# This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wassup, citizens of Watchuseek forums, particularly those who dwell within "F71", the affordable watches sub-forum?

If you don't already know me, I'm Chris, or "Doc", as many have taken to call me. I own a brand called NTH, and another before it, called Lew & Huey. I've been a member here nigh on 8 years, and it appears I'm closing in on 25k posts. I may have to do something to commemorate the milestone, but that's a topic for another post...

After a few years of being a sponsor, I took a few years off. During that time, I was basically free-loading - suckling at the forum owners' teats, you might say. Upon being politely reminded a few times that I was kind of being a cheapskate a-hole (my words), by milking the place for all it was worth, while not putting anything in the kitty, I figured it was time I either leave for good, or start helping to pay the rent.

So here we are. I'm once again a sponsor. Not much has changed really. New signature, and a bit more freedom to say and post what I like, without fear of being tossed out by my belt and collar. So that's nice.

Anyhoo...I own NTH. We make and sell watches. You can see all the in-stock models on our website. Some, we don't actually have in our own inventory, but you can get them from our retailers around the world.

You might (or might not) be familiar with the NTH Subs - at the time we launched in 2016, they were the thinnest (11.5mm) 300m WR diving watches in the world. From what I can tell, they're still among the thinnest dive watches around. NTH was also the first microbrand to lume our signed crowns.






More videos here - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqsr7EV9niRJ_ciCKvvGW3Q/videos

We've also made a dual-crown model range called the Tropics (Antilles, and Azores), and the DevilRay. There are more DevilRays in production now, with a target delivery date in mid-summer 2020.

We're also working on a larger version of the 40mm NTH Subs, and updated versions of the Tropics. We hope to get the larger Subs into production this year, and if things go well, the new Tropics early next.

I'd post pics, because threads are useless without them, but my pics totally suck, usually. Instead, I'll wait for others to post theirs. NTH threads seem to be active enough, with plenty of pics.

If this thread is already monstrously long by the time you find it, don't worry, just feel free to jump in anywhere. Plenty of room by the campfire.

Meanwhile, I'm happy to field questions, absorb criticism, ignore suggestions, and engage in debate, as any of you may like.

Fire away.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Wolfsatz (Jun 27, 2016)

Congrats on the 'Official' Status! 
I am glad that the filter has been lifted... until the quarter lasts... should be fun!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Self-aggrandizement 


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Self-aggrandizement
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Someone has to aggrandize me.

No one else was stepping up.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Really? I called you righteous 


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

For the WiNTH!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So seeing as this is an official forum now... and that means Doc should be checking in more frequently.......

Who's ready for the semi custom sub option he was talking about in the video?! Maybe if we pester the hell out of him we can get it before next year? So everybody badger the crap out him and incite the WoTs! 

Jokes aside doc. I was curious about that. I'm gonna go ahead and assume it would be limited to only the subs right off the bat whenever it goes live. But if it does well(my money is on it will), would you contemplate opening it up to the other, much smaller and more limited lineups?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Really? I called you righteous
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey, at least I won't go blind from self-aggrandizing.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> Really? I called you righteous
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do believe you called his WATCHES righteous.... you called Doc "some dude in Philly".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> So seeing as this is an official forum now... and that means Doc should be checking in more frequently.......
> 
> Who's ready for the semi custom sub option he was talking about in the video?! Maybe if we pester the hell out of him we can get it before next year? So everybody badger the crap out him and incite the WoTs!
> 
> Jokes aside doc. I was curious about that. I'm gonna go ahead and assume it would be limited to only the subs right off the bat whenever it goes live. But if it does well(my money is on it will), would you contemplate opening it up to the other, much smaller and more limited lineups?


The question, as I understand it, is - will we offer customizations of other models, besides the Subs?

Only if it makes sense.

Doing it for the Subs makes sense (I think, so far, we'll see). There have been more than 40 versions, and we've gotten many requests from people asking if we'd swap bezels or handsets.

It doesn't really make sense for most other models, where we have 3-6 versions, and a lot less variability.

For instance, we're making more of the DevilRay. So far, it's just three colorways, which all share the same bezel and handset. What's to customize? Nothing, really.

If and when we make more of the Tropics (Antilles and Azores), the only thing that would make sense to switch would be the bezel (12 hour versus 60 minute). If you understand how we'll be doing the custom Subs (which I'll explain below), it doesn't make sense to offer any sort of customization with the Tropics.

With the subs, we can order 50 per dial, 50 per handset, and 50 per bezel insert, without necessarily having to make all of them into watches. I doubt we'll start out by ordering 50 pieces of every dial, handset, and bezel insert we've ever produced, for every model.

But the next time we make those watches, we'll order extras of each component - for the versions of the watch we're making - plus maybe some dials/handsets/bezels for some other versions. Then the next production, we'll order a few more. The next production, a few more.

Just as a hypothetical - let's say the next time we order watches, we decide to make the Nacken Modern Blue, the Nacken Modern Black, the Barracuda Vintage Black, and some other model. We'll order extras of all those components, plus maybe dials/hands/bezel inserts for a handful of other models. The next production might be four other models, plus extras of those components for a few other models.

Over time, we'll build up a nice inventory of all those components, so we'll be able to offer a wide variety of customization options.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I do believe you called his WATCHES righteous.... you called Doc "some dude in Philly".


Ive called him worse, and been right

Who are the new guys throwing shade? I mean, yeah, bearded gets it, but still. Page one, bro. Let it marinate

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Only if it makes sense.


You understood the question correctly, and answered it perfectly as well as in your usual great detail. The Tropics and Devil Ray's were exactly what I was referring to.

Only the future holds the answers. But here's to hopes and dreams.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Ive called him worse, and been right
> 
> Who are the new guys throwing shade? I mean, yeah, bearded gets it, but still. Page one, bro. Let it marinate
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You've called me better, and been wrong, too.

I think it all evens out in the end.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You understood the question correctly, and answered it perfectly as well as in your usual great detail. The Tropics and Devil Ray's were exactly what I was referring to.
> 
> Only the future holds the answers. But here's to hopes and dreams.


It might make sense with the XL Subs. I really need to finalize those designs and get them into production.

Too much time on social media every day...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> You've called me better, and been wrong, too.
> 
> I think it all evens out in the end.


Balance. Almost an apology. Call it square

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

First photo









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> I mean, yeah, bearded gets it, but still.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> my pics totally suck


True. For example, 3 of the 4 pics in your signature are broken:









But at least we've escaped from that "nod to homie" silliness ...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Welcome back to thread officialdom, Doc. I've gotta say, Dolphin Ice with a black dive-time bezel? I don't think I could resist that.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> True. For example, 3 of the 4 pics in your signature are broken:
> 
> View attachment 14996475
> 
> ...


I don't know what to make of that. The only image in my signature is the one that can be seen in your post.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Hey, at least I won't go blind from self-aggrandizing.


Clearly you've never been to Singapore...


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Here is my contribution










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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Official! Nice. 


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I just made myself curious.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

|>|>|>


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> True. For example, 3 of the 4 pics in your signature are broken:
> 
> View attachment 14996475
> 
> ...


Yeah, well, like, that's just your opinion, man

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Doc is thinking about quasi-custom watches now? I'm genuinely shocked. I'm sure it'll be popular, though.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> Who's ready for the semi custom sub option he was talking about in the video?!


Me! Me! Me!

I want an Amphion Modern with a Nacken/Dolphin bezel!

And a Holland with with Vanguard hands!

And and and ... I'm sure I'll think up a lot more.


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

throw in some pics every now and then wilya


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Just a reminder......   WRUW April Fools Day 2020   

The upgraded Spork that Seiko never made....



....that is thinner, has deeper WR, drilled lugs, smoother highbeat movement, double-domed sapphire crystal with AR, fully lumed bezel (and crown) and in a choice of colors Seiko never offered. It is generally available at lower prices than the pre-owned Sporks, when they pop up.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Wassup, citizens of Watchuseek forums, particularly those who dwell within "F71", the affordable watches sub-forum?
> 
> If you don't already know me, I'm Chris, or "Doc", as many have taken to call me. I own a brand called NTH, and another before it, called Lew & Huey. I've been a member here nigh on 8 years, and it appears I'm closing in on 25k posts. I may have to do something to commemorate the milestone, but that's a topic for another post...
> 
> ...


Just catching up, reading this thread from the beginning and have to state that Doc's pics are good enough to sell watches, at least this pic of his below prompted me to do two things....#1 steal his pic, #2 buy a Bahia before they sold out the first batch.



I may be the holder, accumulator of the most "Doc Watches" at 20, of which 18 are NTH, plus 2 Orthos. Eventually I will round them all up in one place for a pic.



This watch ^^^ is pretty much an orange Bahia, excepting the minute and sweep hands.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cheerz,

Alan


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmmmmm the universe disagrees:


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_7091.jpg


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Needs more photos...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Moar photos!


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmmmmm the universe disagrees:
> 
> View attachment 14997127


¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Just catching up, reading this thread from the beginning and have to state that Doc's pics are good enough to sell watches, at least this pic of his below prompted me to do two things....#1 steal his pic, #2 buy a Bahia before they sold out the first batch.


Even a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while.


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## sticky (Apr 5, 2013)

Always enjoy reading your posts Doc and you make a pretty mean watch too.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Needs more photos...


You seem to be missing a Nomad in your 1-11 bezel collection...


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Even a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while.


Good with a spanner, yer blind squirrel.

Ric


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Rhorya said:


> Moar photos!


#Enablement


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> You seem to be missing a Nomad in your 1-11 bezel collection...


Don't think I haven't seriously considered it...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Probably a stupid question coming from the brand owner, but here goes...

Can anyone with a DevilRay confirm with 100% certainty how many links are in the bracelet, before it's sized, NOT counting the end-links (at the case), or the end-links attached to the clasp?

I'm trying to figure out how many links I took out of my bracelets, so obviously I wouldn't count the end-links or clasp-links.

EDIT - never mind. Johnny Bald Junior answered on Facebook. It's 9 per side, because we wanted it to fit everything from a twig to gorilla wrists, apparently...


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

a new clean NTH thread? Checking in with a clean watch. This is my Covid_Clean_Clock'ometer.


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## Zzyzx (Dec 16, 2013)

But why male models?


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## ylnahnwatch (Oct 1, 2015)

I have a modern blue nacken arriving at my address sometimes this week and I _*LITERALLY*_ cannot wait.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

ylnahnwatch said:


> I have a modern blue nacken arriving at my address sometimes this week and I _*LITERALLY*_ cannot wait.


Well, technically, you are *literally* waiting for it to arrive at the moment, so it's more like *figuratively*, you cannot wait.

- Mr. Pedantic


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## ylnahnwatch (Oct 1, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Well, technically, you are *literally* waiting for it to arrive at the moment, so it's more like *figuratively*, you cannot wait.
> 
> - Mr. Pedantic


That's what I've always thought too but interestingly enough the Mirriam-Webster lists literally as:

Definition of literally
1: in a literal sense or manner: such as
a: in a way that uses the ordinary or primary meaning of a term or expression
He took the remark literally.
a word that can be used both literally and figuratively


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ylnahnwatch said:


> That's what I've always thought too but interestingly enough the Mirriam-Webster lists literally as:
> 
> Definition of literally
> 1: in a literal sense or manner: such as
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Literally another pic of the Amphion.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

More quarantine fun with Photoshop - Vanguard Diver. If any of ya'll would like to see "NTH model X modified with bezel from NTH model Y" let me know. Something to do.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14998723


I think of myself as being more in the descriptivist camp but abuses like this literally bring out the prescriptivist in me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> More quarantine fun with Photoshop - Vanguard Diver. If any of ya'll would like to see "NTH model X modified with bezel from NTH model Y" let me know. Something to do.
> 
> View attachment 14998829


 I'm curious as to how a Sauro would look with an Azurro or Odin Blue bezel.


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## Sergeant Major (Dec 13, 2019)

A crazy one off I would love to see if it works. A lfull umed dial with solid numbers and the bezel in a reverse scheme of the dial. So we use the blue super luminova for the dial with flat black Arabic numerals and the bezel would be flat black with the numbers blue lumed. The hour and minute hands would be hollow or just the outline of the hands so you can see the lume thru the hands, I know solid hands do well but thought this would be a subtle attempt at different. Not sure if you would get washout of the hands edges or not. Anyway, retired is guys need to get out and fish more!


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I'm curious as to how a Sauro would look with an Azurro or Odin Blue bezel.


NTH Kind of Azzuro.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Literally another pic of the Amphion.


Figures

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ylnahnwatch said:


> That's what I've always thought too but interestingly enough the Mirriam-Webster lists literally as:
> 
> Definition of literally
> 1: in a literal sense or manner: such as
> ...


M-W long has allowed the imbeciles to redefine words through common misuse.

I hate it. But "irregardless" will arrive shortly, irrespective of my literal vomiting at the thought, figuratively speaking.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> NTH Kind of Azzuro.
> 
> View attachment 14999069


I won't lie...


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

This thread is dying a slow death if all we're doing is talking about literally, figuratively, and now, irregardless. 

More pics, please, or, heck, even a WoT.


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## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Posting this here so the thread be in my subscribed list.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

More pics? Are crappy cell phone lume pics ok?


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> More quarantine fun with Photoshop - Vanguard Diver. If any of ya'll would like to see "NTH model X modified with bezel from NTH model Y" let me know. Something to do.
> 
> View attachment 14998829


the photos were saving the day, and NOW we got smoke in this here thread...!

how about a blue odin with this same blue bezel?

(wouldn't mind seeing blue odin with blue vanguard bezel also but don't want to get overzealous with your photoshop offer)


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> This thread is dying a slow death if all we're doing is talking about literally, figuratively, and now, irregardless.
> 
> More pics, please, or, heck, even a WoT.


Way to lead the charge with those great pics

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Another "because I was curious" - Tom Clancy's Ghost Renegade.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> More quarantine fun with Photoshop - Vanguard Diver. If any of ya'll would like to see "NTH model X modified with bezel from NTH model Y" let me know. Something to do.
> 
> View attachment 14998829


I like how the bezel is skinny at 10 and fat at 50 just like I was. I mean, neat!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

wtma said:


> Posting this here so the thread be in my subscribed list.


I was looking to do the exact same. Or close. Shooting for "PARTICIPATED" for ease of use in Tapatalk.

Do I have any new pictures? No. 
Do I have anything useful to say? No, not at the moment. Maybe not ever.

Then here is this lovely post with this lovely photo. And here I am rambling. And problem solved!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Put that bezel back. Judge Smails is gonna be pissed.


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I just made myself curious.
> 
> View attachment 14996519


Chris how about Dolphin in black or other dial color (blue?) ?


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> More quarantine fun with Photoshop - Vanguard Diver. If any of ya'll would like to see "NTH model X modified with bezel from NTH model Y" let me know. Something to do.
> 
> View attachment 14998829


I think a Vanguard with sword hands from the Odin or Amphion would be killer


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Tycho Brahe said:


> I think a Vanguard with sword hands from the Odin or Amphion would be killer


Hand changes are unfortunately above my pay grade. Dial swaps are pretty much cake, but hand changes would probably have to be done using the renders instead of actual photos, because the renders all have their hands at the usual 10:10. Even then, a lot of shaping the crop tool by hand. I perfectly cut out a set of Seiko SNKL23 hands that I could use to experiment on third party dials without hands on them to see how they would look in a watch, and it took me a few hours to get that done.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

The Watcher said:


> the photos were saving the day, and NOW we got smoke in this here thread...!
> 
> how about a blue odin with this same blue bezel?
> 
> (wouldn't mind seeing blue odin with blue vanguard bezel also but don't want to get overzealous with your photoshop offer)


Odin Reduced.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Travelin' Odin.


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Odin Reduced.
> 
> View attachment 14999453





Davekaye90 said:


> Travelin' Odin.
> 
> View attachment 14999459


salute to you, good sir


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Hand changes are unfortunately above my pay grade. Dial swaps are pretty much cake, but hand changes would probably have to be done using the renders instead of actual photos, because the renders all have their hands at the usual 10:10. Even then, a lot of shaping the crop tool by hand. I perfectly cut out a set of Seiko SNKL23 hands that I could use to experiment on third party dials without hands on them to see how they would look in a watch, and it took me a few hours to get that done.


If you can do that, you can do it for real. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Project Spectre......*









Cheerz,

Alan


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

ylnahnwatch said:


> That's what I've always thought too but interestingly enough the Mirriam-Webster lists literally as:
> 
> Definition of literally
> 1: in a literal sense or manner: such as
> ...


My world is literally shattered... *sob*

- the former Mr. Pedantic


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> I think of myself as being more in the descriptivist camp but abuses like this literally bring out the prescriptivist in me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hate when people make me learn a new word.

Even more when it's two at once.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ragl said:


> *Project Spectre......*
> 
> View attachment 14999861
> 
> ...


I'll see your blue dial and raise you a black....


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

MikeyT said:


> I'll see your blue dial and raise you a black....


And I'll raise your Black with a Blue & Black.........









Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tycho Brahe said:


> Chris how about Dolphin in black or other dial color (blue?) 😄


Never thought about it. Feels like some of the other dial/handset combos are just more popular.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Tikuna done gone kewl........*









Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*A minor progress update for those who've been eagerly awaiting the L/XL Subs...*

After months of not being able to even look at them, I spent almost the entire day yesterday working on them, and made a good bit of progress. One of the big hangups was the difficulty in finding handsets we liked for the different designs we'd come up with, but I think we've got that problem licked.

I've asked Aaron to update the illustrations. Assuming I like what we've got, I'll send them over to our vendor for review and confirmation of the specs/illustrations, then we can think about when we'll start production. Maybe, if there's time, we'll get some prototypes made.

*For those awaiting news on the next batch of DevilRays...*

We got the 3D model back from our vendor, but it needed a little review and tweaking. It also needed to be completed/assembled. Rusty's finishing it up now. Once he's got it all put together, he can start illustrating.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My brief NTH hisory. At one point as a complete noob, I tried to buy a NTH Antilles in blue. Gorgeous blue watch, 12hr internal bezel, *swoon*. But F29 seller would not sell to me because I had no feedback. To me this is like: here, take my money! "Mmm... nah." Whatevs. Di'n't want your stupid watch, anyway, *sob*... Then I was looking for a lume dial watch, and this popped up:
















Cool watch, but no date, and this, plus a Sinn 856 UTC convinced me that 40mm all-dial watches with thin bezels are just not for me. Did I just mention Sinn? Yes I did... after the 856. and knowing the 857 would also probably be too large, I tried a 556A. Getting there, for sure, but still not quite doing it for me. Found out about Seiko Spork, checked it out, and woah, way too large. Actually seriously contemplated a Big Numbers aviator-style SKX build. So this next one was a logical progression...









But truth be told, I pined for a 12hr bezel, so when the Amphion Commando was announced and renders circulated, it won out over the Vanguard, and I sold off the Scorpene to fund purchase.









The Commando went into regular rotation and I honestly thought it would be a long-term keeper, but then Doc announced a Scorpene with 1-11 bezel, the Nomad. Well f' me, that's the one I always wanted. Flipped the Commando and picked up the Scorpene Nomad









So there ya go.

I have a small collection with 6-8 watches in regular rotation at any given time. I don't like to hold onto watches I'm not wearing, and frankly can't afford to keep also-rans _and_ afford new watches. There are way too many kewl watches out there. As a result, I tend not to have multiples of any one brand, and at the moment, NTH represents my most expensive watch, and have always been at least mid-range in my collection, so if I want another one, something else has to go. To some, this is heresy, but I'm really only comfortable with one NTH sub at a time.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Ragl said:


> And I'll raise your Black with a Blue & Black.........
> 
> View attachment 15000069
> 
> ...


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## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

docvail said:


> *A minor progress update for those who've been eagerly awaiting the L/XL Subs...*
> 
> After months of not being able to even look at them, I spent almost the entire day yesterday working on them, and made a good bit of progress. One of the big hangups was the difficulty in finding handsets we liked for the different designs we'd come up with, but I think we've got that problem licked.


Great news! I have been looking forward to the L/XL line ever since you first mentioned them. They will come when they are ready, I'm sure, and there are certainly many out there who will be happy when that day comes.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

92gli said:


> Ragl said:
> 
> 
> > And I'll raise your Black with a Blue & Black.........
> ...


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> I hate when people make me learn a new word.
> 
> Even more when it's two at once.


That reminds me, on the other thread we were sharing TV and podcast ideas for The Corona Times. Lexicon Valley is a fantastic podcast on various aspects of language. The host, John McWhorter, is brilliant and witty, and will make you learn lots of cool words (e.g., sumpsimus - an actual word) as well as the fascinating etymology of all kinds of words. The earlier episodes with other hosts were also very good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rogco (Jan 12, 2017)

Doc, when are you going to make the gilt salmon sunray dial???


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lee_K said:


> Great news! I have been looking forward to the L/XL line ever since you first mentioned them. They will come when they are ready, I'm sure, and there are certainly many out there who will be happy when that day comes.


I think part of the problem was that we had a lot of different ideas we wanted to try, and the longer it took us to finalize any of them, the more we added.

I also think I felt some self-imposed pressure to make as many different versions as we had for the original batch of NTH Subs (8 different designs), but we didn't want to just make the XL Subs the larger versions of the 40mm subs. Instead, we wanted them to be more "original", less homagey, and it took us a while to narrow down on what we wanted them to look like.

When we're doing an homage of something, it's a bit easier. You know if you want a Mercedes or Snowflake handset, all you have to do is find the right hand sizes. But when you DON'T want to do that, and instead you want to look for something different, figuring out what looks "right", and then figuring out how to put it all together, is a bit harder.

I like what we've got so far. I think people will see obvious influences, but hopefully not dismiss them as "just a poor man's _____", or knockoff of whatever.



Ike2 said:


> That reminds me, on the other thread we were sharing TV and podcast ideas for The Corona Times. Lexicon Valley is a fantastic podcast on various aspects of language. The host, John McWhorter, is brilliant and witty, and will make you learn lots of cool words (e.g., sumpsimus - an actual word) as well as the fascinating etymology of all kinds of words. The earlier episodes with other hosts were also very good.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You lost me at podcast.

Doc ain't got time for dat.



Rogco said:


> Doc, when are you going to make the gilt salmon sunray dial???


I'm assuming you're joking.

Responding as if you're serious - there's no way to do the gilt-relief dial with "salmon" as a color. We could do gold print on top of a salmon sunray, and do "gilt" hands and markers, but...I don't see that happening with NTH, at least not any time soon.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Rogco said:


> Doc, when are you going to make the gilt salmon sunray dial???


You did mean to do this yesterday morning, yeah......

Cheerz,

Alan


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## ylnahnwatch (Oct 1, 2015)

There are many like her but she is mine.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

The family says hi.


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## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

ylnahnwatch said:


> View attachment 15001839
> 
> 
> There are many like her but she is mine.


Not that many! Technically, it's more "exclusive" than Rolex or Patek!


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Just in case pics of the 3 GILT NTH haven't been posted in this thread yet.


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## Zzyzx (Dec 16, 2013)

Doc, you and NTH have especially been on my mind recently with all the Corona stuff shutting down production in a lot of places and making things even tougher for small businesses. 

You don't need to answer any more personally than you want to, of course, but how are you and NTH doing in this time?


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I hate when people make me learn a new word.
> 
> Even more when it's two at once.


I can't stand it when people use a big word when a diminutive one would suffice.

Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Zzyzx said:


> Doc, you and NTH have especially been on my mind recently with all the Corona stuff shutting down production in a lot of places and making things even tougher for small businesses.
> 
> You don't need to answer any more personally than you want to, of course, but how are you and NTH doing in this time?


Thanks for thinking of me and my business.

The last few years, we've been front-loading our production, by ordering cases and all the other common components in bulk - 900-1800 pieces - but assembling 100-600 at a time, as/when needed. The 400 NTH Subs we've received since January were all started last year, so we were fortunate to not have any production delays related to CV19. If anything, because of CV19, I requested the most recent delivery of 300 a month or two sooner than I'd planned.

I'd by lying if I said I haven't noticed any impact on sales. Sales aren't as good as they were first quarter of last year. No doubt CV19 is a factor, but it seems like the entire industry started to slow down the middle of last year, so it's impossible for me or anyone else to say how much of a factor CV19 is. My seat-of-the-pants impression is that NTH may be slightly ahead of the curve, as I've been carefully managing production and delivery to avoid having too much inventory on hand at any given time.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't think this is against forum rules. If so, my apologies in advance to the moderator team.

Yesterday afternoon, a good friend of mine lost his 18 year old son, Noah, in a senseless act of violence. Full story here - https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/man-accused-of-killing-wife-her-neighbor-and-himself-in-mt-airy.

Noah was a good kid. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, standing in front of his own house when his next door neighbor was shot by her estranged husband, who then shot Noah. I'm told he also fired multiple shots at my friend Nate's house, while Nate and the rest of his family were inside. No one else was hit, but no doubt it was terrifying.

Along with some other friends of his, we've started a GoFundMe to help raise funds for Noah's funeral costs and related expenses - https://www.gofundme.com/f/memorial-for-noah-homayouni.

Obviously, with all that's going on in the world, this isn't the best time to be asking for people's generosity. All the same, any and all help is much appreciated.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Condolences from the Lone Star state to your friend and yourself, that is absolutely heartbreaking. 

I know it's of little consequence, but it seems the family's story has touched many hearts. I was super glad to see that the GoFundMe has almost doubled its goal.


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## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Here's the Doc Vail segment my SOTC:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Condolences from the Lone Star state to your friend and yourself, that is absolutely heartbreaking.
> 
> I know it's of little consequence, but it seems the family's story has touched many hearts. I was super glad to see that the GoFundMe has almost doubled its goal.


Indeed, and thank you.

It's been about 5-6 years since we saw him and his family. It seems Noah had grown up to be a fine young man - good student, good athlete, always bringing a positive attitude to class or the field, etc. The community is rallying around the family, as best they can, given the quarantine rules in effect.

I spoke to my friend a couple hours ago. He is very appreciative of everyone's kindness and generosity. Their family is in a state of shock. It could have been much worse. The guy shot up their house, their cars, full on rampage, it seems. My friend's wife was almost hit while trying to get to her son. A bullet went through their daughter's bedroom window, and pillow. It's hard to fathom what they're going through.

On a brighter note, several people have contacted me through the GoFundMe. One couple started a foundation in the name of their daughter, who was killed in a mass shooting 6 years ago. They happen to live close to Noah's family, and offered their support. No doubt it may be a comfort for Noah's parents to talk to them, since they understand the pain and despair happening. She talked about the inability to deal with basics of daily life - just small things like going to the store can be more than the parents can face for a while.

I also heard from one of their other neighbors, who's been at their house a lot since yesterday. She offered to help coordinate some sort of drive-by memorial services, for Noah's friends, and his lacrosse teammates. The mother of one of Noah's friends also reached out, to ask about sending the family food or gift-cards.

Our circle of friends are struggling to figure out what to do, and ruminating about how we could have let so much time go by without all of us getting together. The closest ones are 45 minutes away from Noah's family. The rest of us are all spread out around the East coast. We'd all be there, if we could be, but of course, we can't just get in the car and go, with the quarantine in effect. Best we could do was start the GoFundMe, and send our heartfelt condolences to them.

It really is just a senseless tragedy. Five minutes earlier, Noah was inside the house talking to his father. His life was cut short because he went outside at the wrong time.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Tikuna getting some wrist time today. Hope everyone enjoys their Saturday, even though the days seem to be blurring together for a lot of us!


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I decided to pull one of my first ever micro-brand watches out of my box today. It is super comfortable on the wrist but also very thick ( I have been spoilt by the NTH Subs).










If only there was a super thin 42-44mm divers watch that I could look at buying 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> *A minor progress update for those who've been eagerly awaiting the L/XL Subs...*
> 
> After months of not being able to even look at them, I spent almost the entire day yesterday working on them, and made a good bit of progress. One of the big hangups was the difficulty in finding handsets we liked for the different designs we'd come up with, but I think we've got that problem licked.


I'm really feeling that right now - I'm having a bear of a time trying to get the right handset for my SKX mod. It started originally with the matching SARB059 sword hands back when it had the fixed bezel on it, but when I changed to the 2018+ SMP bezel, I put in Planet Ocean hands. Then I took those out and put in Zodiac SSW style hands. Now I'm thinking about taking _those_ out, and putting in Transocean hands. I also thought about pulling the sticks out of the SNKN37, but after making a mock up, I don't think I'm really liking that idea anymore. Curious what you folks think. I didn't bother putting in the second hand with these, because cropping that out takes forever.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I never adjusted the bracelet on my Devil Ray.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Rhorya said:


> I never adjusted the bracelet on my Devil Ray.


The all new NTH Flail. BOR wrapped handle sold separately.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm really feeling that right now - I'm having a bear of a time trying to get the right handset for my SKX mod. It started originally with the matching SARB059 sword hands back when it had the fixed bezel on it, but when I changed to the 2018+ SMP bezel, I put in Planet Ocean hands. Then I took those out and put in Zodiac SSW style hands. Now I'm thinking about taking _those_ out, and putting in Transocean hands. I also thought about pulling the sticks out of the SNKN37, but after making a mock up, I don't think I'm really liking that idea anymore. Curious what you folks think. I didn't bother putting in the second hand with these, because cropping that out takes forever.
> 
> View attachment 15006625
> 
> ...


Out of the three listed, the middle is best (which is also most like the omega PO)

I think the main thing with any handset that you choose is that they need to have some substance and thickness. The two other options just look small and not proportional to the bezel/case size.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

I like #2 hand set but appears a bit short, if it were the length of the #1 hand set it would killer IMO.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm really feeling that right now - I'm having a bear of a time trying to get the right handset for my SKX mod. It started originally with the matching SARB059 sword hands back when it had the fixed bezel on it, but when I changed to the 2018+ SMP bezel, I put in Planet Ocean hands. Then I took those out and put in Zodiac SSW style hands. Now I'm thinking about taking _those_ out, and putting in Transocean hands. I also thought about pulling the sticks out of the SNKN37, but after making a mock up, I don't think I'm really liking that idea anymore. Curious what you folks think. I didn't bother putting in the second hand with these, because cropping that out takes forever.
> 
> View attachment 15006625
> 
> ...


First one doesn't look bad at all.

If I get through my to do list this weekend, I'll be able to share a picture of an SKX with that dial and Transocean hands. And if I still remember how to use all of the watch tools I haven't touched in ages.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Mr. dmjonez, if I may ask, what type of airline do you fly for? If passenger, I was wondering if people are still traveling by air. And if people are now able to / forced to have entire rows to themselves. Thanks. Be careful.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The blue Glycine Combat Sub appeared on my radar recently. Figured it might be a nice, handsome, probably inexpensive (used), blue bezel watch. Maybe too large.









Was pondering this while cleaning up outside. Then noticed the definitely nice, definitely handsome, sunk cost, blue bezel watch with great dimensions that I was wearing. Camera barely captures the day glow of the lume. I think that may actually be the best benefit of super strong lume.


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

I like the top one! -which hands are those??


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Those Glycines, I don't get. Something about them that just seems so... I don't know, corporate.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Curious what you folks think. I didn't bother putting in the second hand with these, because cropping that out takes forever.
> 
> View attachment 15006625


#1. Definitely.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Mr. dmjonez, if I may ask, what type of airline do you fly for? If passenger, I was wondering if people are still traveling by air. And if people are now able to / forced to have entire rows to themselves. Thanks. Be careful.


Billy flew F14s. Mr Jones flies big buses.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> Mr. dmjonez, if I may ask, what type of airline do you fly for? If passenger, I was wondering if people are still traveling by air. And if people are now able to / forced to have entire rows to themselves. Thanks. Be careful.


I fly for a major international carrier. My company flies most everywhere, but I fly long-range international routes. For the moment, I'm grounded. My last flight had 60 passengers on a 300 seat aircraft. There are still some flights, as some cities have been declared as "medical ports" and people are allowed to transit through them to get home. Amsterdam, for example is open.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> Billy flew F14s. Mr Jones flies big buses.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And on a side note, I flew F-15s for 20 years. That's one path to the big guys. Me, in a simpler time:








Hence the avatar.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> And on a side note, I flew F-15s for 20 years. That's one path to the big guys. Me, in a simpler time:
> View attachment 15007597
> 
> 
> Hence the avatar.


Awesome! Looks like one bullet left in the gun. Was that how many you took off with?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> Awesome! Looks like one bullet left in the gun. Was that how many you took off with?


No, the cannon is in the wing root over my right shoulder. The dark spot to your left. That missile on the rails is a "training warhead" and had a heat seeker-sensor in it, but no explosive. With it on the rails, we could tell if the missile could detect a heat source and would therefore track to a target. This was taken by a tanker over Oklahoma, I think, on the way to Red Flag (an exercise) in Nevada. I'm about to re-fuel, and the tanker's boom is at the top of the photo, and my re-fueling door is open on my left wing root (to your right). The only photos I ever got were in peacetime. This was taken by the boom operator.

Oddly enough, there's a watch story in there. If everyone's bored enough, I'll sit down and take some photos and tell the story later today. It ends up with me buying an NTH...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> 3WR said:
> 
> 
> > Awesome! Looks like one bullet left in the gun. Was that how many you took off with?
> ...


What else do we have to do during quarantine? I'm down for story time.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> No, the cannon is in the wing root over my right shoulder. The dark spot to your left. That missile on the rails is a "training warhead" and had a heat seeker-sensor in it, but no explosive. With it on the rails, we could tell if the missile could detect a heat source and would therefore track to a target. This was taken by a tanker over Oklahoma, I think, on the way to Red Flag (an exercise) in Nevada. I'm about to re-fuel, and the tanker's boom is at the top of the photo, and my re-fueling door is open on my left wing root (to your right). The only photos I ever got were in peacetime. This was taken by the boom operator.
> 
> Oddly enough, there's a watch story in there. If everyone's bored enough, I'll sit down and take some photos and tell the story later today. It ends up with me buying an NTH...


Tell away, love hearing from pilots and loved the f15. I can live out my childhood fantasy of being a fighter pilot though you.....


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> No, the cannon is in the wing root over my right shoulder. The dark spot to your left. That missile on the rails is a "training warhead" and had a heat seeker-sensor in it, but no explosive. With it on the rails, we could tell if the missile could detect a heat source and would therefore track to a target. This was taken by a tanker over Oklahoma, I think, on the way to Red Flag (an exercise) in Nevada. I'm about to re-fuel, and the tanker's boom is at the top of the photo, and my re-fueling door is open on my left wing root (to your right). The only photos I ever got were in peacetime. This was taken by the boom operator.
> 
> Oddly enough, there's a watch story in there. If everyone's bored enough, I'll sit down and take some photos and tell the story later today. It ends up with me buying an NTH...


What was your call sign?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> No, the cannon is in the wing root over my right shoulder. The dark spot to your left. That missile on the rails is a "training warhead" and had a heat seeker-sensor in it, but no explosive. With it on the rails, we could tell if the missile could detect a heat source and would therefore track to a target. This was taken by a tanker over Oklahoma, I think, on the way to Red Flag (an exercise) in Nevada. I'm about to re-fuel, and the tanker's boom is at the top of the photo, and my re-fueling door is open on my left wing root (to your right). The only photos I ever got were in peacetime. This was taken by the boom operator.
> 
> Oddly enough, there's a watch story in there. If everyone's bored enough, I'll sit down and take some photos and tell the story later today. It ends up with me buying an NTH...


2 to 1 odds say those photos get posted sideways or upside down...


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## Nikrnic (Aug 20, 2017)

+2 a day

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> And on a side note, I flew F-15s for 20 years. That's one path to the big guys. Me, in a simpler time:
> View attachment 15007597
> 
> 
> Hence the avatar.


14. 15. Tomato Potato

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Sent from a van down by the river...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Story time! 
Go get a beer, or the traditional drink of F15 drivers, Jeremiah Weed. Seriously foul stuff. Anyhoo, here goes:

Granddad was a son of the great stock market crash. Crappy time to be looking for work. No jobs anywhere, so he enlisted in the US Coast Guard. Was assigned to be an aviation mechanic, and flew as an engineer on Douglas RD-1 and RD-2s in the 1930s and 40s. Here's a photo of him escorting the Zeppelin Hindenburg into Lakehearst, NJ.






He ended up getting a commission during WWII, and retired in the 1960's. He had a daughter who married my Dad.

Dad was just starting college in 1941, which was also pretty bad timing. Entered aviation cadets, flew P38s in WWII in the south Pacific. Photo here:







Once back from the war, he tried to re-enter the civilian job market, but was recalled for Korea. Maybe this virus isn't quite so bad...
He flew F86s there, returned and made a career of the military, last flying the F102. He retired in 1972, after 31 years in the service. I came along late in his career, and thought about becoming a doctor. But at Dad's suggestion I applied for and was accepted to the USAF Academy. Turns out they don't make doctors there. Graduated and went to pilot training and was issued this:








Tiny little watch, acrylic crystal, hand-winder. I'm sure I had a watch before that, but I have absolutely no memory of one. I wore that for a bit, and then decided I needed an alarm. I found a really nice dressy Seiko, gold tone, square face, on an alligator band. I loved that Seiko and wore it for years. Not exactly your "average pilot's watch", but it hacked, kept perfect time, and was thin. It eventually got water in it, and I replaced it with this:








I thought that was the perfect pilot's watch! Seiko SNA139, for about $90 bucks on eBay. Contrary to popular belief, most pilots are notoriously cheap. Copper wire was invented by two pilots fighting over a penny. The path to the airlines and the bigger salaries typically takes one of three routes: military, corporate, or "commuter" airlines. None of those pay a lot, and they mange to keep pilots by promising future potential. Along those lines, I did my 8 years on active duty, and then found a slot still flying fighters in the Air National Guard (international folks here will need to Google that. The US military is supported largely by the Reserves and the Guard). One of my last deployments, to Egypt:







At the same time, I managed to get hired by a major US airline. I wore that Seiko for years. Sadly, however, the seat adjustment handle for the Boeing 737 resembles a parking brake lever typically found in automobiles, and I scratched the he11 out of the hardlex crystal on that watch. I was heartbroken. I looked for another, but Seiko had quit making them years ago. Which led me to WUS...

Through WUS, I found other watches! Thousands of them. I also found "yobokies", who took that SNA139 and replaced the scratched crystal with a Sapphire! I was happy again, until this guy took my watch:








The guy on the left is my son. He's an Army Blackhawk UH-60 pilot-in-command. We all seem to fall into the same line of work. So now I needed to really find a replacement for that Seiko. I had already bought a few watches found through WUS. My civilian job pushed me towards GMT stuff, which are still most of my small collection. And I had tried a few Lew and Huey pieces. And I actually got to know Doc Vail. I have actually sat across the table from him and shared a beer and a few war stories.

Sidebar: That's one of the reasons I'm still here. I probably have all the watches I'll ever want. But once you get to know the people here, they become more than just avatars. It's easier to understand why someone presents a contrary opinion when you get to know them, their family, and their motivations. Doc is a person to me, as are many of the regulars. I've met several of the UK brothers on trip to London. Great times. Now where was I...

Doc sold this watch to raise money for a charity:







That may be the perfect watch. It's been modified several times. Hands from a Scorpene (I think), bezel from a Catalina, the case was a donor from a broken watch. Thanks to jelliotz, who did the work. So now, I sit back and wait for the next great NTH thing.

And Doc will be elated to know that at least three of the photos above were sideways, until I fixed them.

As to my call-sign, I've had three. Most fighter pilot's call signs are NOT flattering, but have some back-story that make them relevant to the other pilots in the squadron. My most "interesting" was Snot. No typo. It devolved from "snot-locker" which is a slang term for nose, and was loosely tied to Davy Jones's locker. There's more, but that's another story...

So this is my home now:







I took that on my last trip to Heathrow. Three years to go until mandatory retirement. And time to tell stories while I wait for things to start again...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> 14. 15. Tomato Potato
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Speaking of sitting at a table with a beer, you're on my list of guys to see when this is over. Prost


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Quite the aviation history you've got there, Snot. One helluva story.

I haven't actually flown an aircraft since I was a kid going up with my old man and his buddy. I can't remember what his friend had, but Dad had a Christen Eagle.

I actually graduated from Spartan College of Aeronautics, for some stupid reason I didnt stick with it. When I went I convinced a guy I grew up with to come with me. He stuck with it. His first job out of college was with L3 out in Greenville, TX. He kept climbing, got his clearances one after the other(I got interviewed for his first background check) and eventually ended up with his Yankee White and a nice job working for the PAG and VIPSAM. Thanks to him I've got all sorts of cool stuff most people dont get to see, let alone hold or own. Including these(watches for NTH posterity).








Also... seeing as you went by Snot... you will now forever look like this in my mind.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Quite the aviation history you've got there, Snot. One helluva story.
> 
> I haven't actually flown an aircraft since I was a kid going up with my old man and his buddy. I can't remember what his friend had, but Dad had a Christen Eagle.
> 
> ...


This is closer, and some of the reason behind the handle:


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

ryan850 said:


> I think the main thing with any handset that you choose is that they need to have some substance and thickness. The two other options just look small and not proportional to the bezel/case size.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


That's what I've been thinking. It started off with Dagaz Planet Ocean hands, but the minute hand I thought was too skinny.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> First one doesn't look bad at all.
> 
> If I get through my to do list this weekend, I'll be able to share a picture of an SKX with that dial and Transocean hands. And if I still remember how to use all of the watch tools I haven't touched in ages.


Nice, I'd love to see that. I don't think I've seen anyone else pair the SARB059/061 dial with the Transocean handset.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Tycho Brahe said:


> I like the top one! -which hands are those??


Lucius Atelier lumed "Grand Seiko" hands. They're actually much more like Zodiac SSW '53 hands, though. Real GS hands are brushed, not polished like these.


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

Any plans on producing more of the Barracuda Vintage Blacks?


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Very pleased with this.


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## Mjsusc (Jan 29, 2020)

Haha


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## Mjsusc (Jan 29, 2020)

I’m a fan of this one


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Silverye said:


> Any plans on producing more of the Barracuda Vintage Blacks?


Some day, maybe.

We made 300 last year. You see some pop up on the used market here and there.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > Quite the aviation history you've got there, Snot. One helluva story.
> ...


Good ol' Spicoli. All I need are some tasty waves...


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

Absolutely loving the Oberon 2!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

docvail said:


> Some day, maybe.
> 
> We made 300 last year. You see some pop up on the used market here and there.


I'll have a look around


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> Speaking of sitting at a table with a beer, you're on my list of guys to see when this is over. Prost


And I look forward to it. I will drink a shot of that foul mess in your honor. Flames will depend on status of my stubble!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Quite the aviation history you've got there, Snot. One helluva story.
> 
> I haven't actually flown an aircraft since I was a kid going up with my old man and his buddy. I can't remember what his friend had, but Dad had a Christen Eagle.
> 
> ...


Shorter hair. Otherwise, snot-on

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Silverye said:


> I'll have a look around


Set up an alert on Watch Recon and eBay.


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## pneuby (Feb 13, 2019)

docvail said:


> We're also working on a larger version of the 40mm NTH Subs, and updated versions of the Tropics. We hope to get the larger Subs into production this year, and if things go well, the new Tropics early next.
> .


In 44mm or more and that's a SCORE !


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> This is closer, and some of the reason behind the handle:
> 
> View attachment 15009679


Wait! Snot was your call sign? How'd I miss that?
So much more panache than said .... Maverick or Ice Man.

A BIG THANK YOU for your family's service. A fantastic aviation legacy.
P-38 to F-102. How cool is that!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Re: Glycine, I think the Combat Sub is fine. One of very few divers that's significantly thinner than even the NTH Sub, but it's only good for 20ATM, for whatever that's worth. Until recently the dials were a bit on the dull side, (other than the hyper rare KMZiZ, which is an extremely cool looking tool-diver). The quibbles I have with it are that it's just a bit big for me, and that my ideal Combat Sub is a bunch of parts from different versions.

Something like a Goldeneye with the dial from the CS Bronze for example I think would be extremely cool.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Apropos to dmjonez.
Free for Amazon Prime members, Prime Reading.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pneuby said:


> In 44mm or more and that's a SCORE !


43.75mm at the bezel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: Glycine, I think the Combat Sub is fine. One of very few divers that's significantly thinner than even the NTH Sub, but it's only good for 20ATM, for whatever that's worth. Until recently the dials were a bit on the dull side, (other than the hyper rare KMZiZ, which is an extremely cool looking tool-diver). The quibbles I have with it are that it's just a bit big for me, and that my ideal Combat Sub is a bunch of parts from different versions.
> 
> Something like a Goldeneye with the dial from the CS Bronze for example I think would be extremely cool.


They're 0.9mm thinner, but with a flat crystal.

Even with only 200m WR, and a flat crystal, that's actually pretty remarkable, given that the movement is thicker, and the crystal is wider, requiring it to be thicker, all other things being equal.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Another CS experiment - Combat Mil-Sub.


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## Black5 (Nov 17, 2012)

cmbezln said:


> very nice looks great


very nice looks great

This copy and paste thing gets your post count up very quickly without having to read or think at all doesn't it...



Gunnar_917 said:


> ^^ tells the truth on Internet forums


SOoO many watches, SOoO little time...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: Glycine, I think the Combat Sub is fine. One of very few divers that's significantly thinner than even the NTH Sub, but it's only good for 20ATM, for whatever that's worth. Until recently the dials were a bit on the dull side, (other than the hyper rare KMZiZ, which is an extremely cool looking tool-diver). The quibbles I have with it are that it's just a bit big for me, and that my ideal Combat Sub is a bunch of parts from different versions.
> 
> Something like a Goldeneye with the dial from the CS Bronze for example I think would be extremely cool.
> 
> View attachment 15010301


Looks great! Would like the old logo with the baton hour hand.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Looks great! Would like the old logo with the baton hour hand.


I also made a version with a black dial, which I'm quite smitten with. Glycine has apparently done dial swaps before, and I have to admit it's a little bit tempting.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

DJ drop that double post.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Black5 said:


> very nice looks great
> 
> This copy and paste thing gets your post count up very quickly without having to read or think at all doesn't it...
> 
> SOoO many watches, SOoO little time...


Not looking to stop you from what you're doing, just asking - are you reporting these posts to the mods? I ask because I see you're calling BS like this in other threads, too.


----------



## Black5 (Nov 17, 2012)

docvail said:


> Not looking to stop you from what you're doing, just asking - are you reporting these posts to the mods? I ask because I see you're calling BS like this in other threads, too.


The mods know...



Gunnar_917 said:


> ^^ tells the truth on Internet forums


So many watches, So little time...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Looks great! Would like the old logo with the baton hour hand.


I wonder how many versions of the Combat Sub they've made. I wouldn't be surprised if it was as many, or even more than the NTH Subs.

I had the blue/orange for about six months, maybe a year, before I sold it to Bill Jones (yes, of the Bill Jones School of Photography fame), who gave it to his son.









I thought they nailed the colors, but I wasn't keen on the lollipop hour hand or full-number dial. The lume was a bit underwhelming, too. Seemed like it dissipated within a few minutes.

If it had the baton hands and more Sub-styled markers, I might have kept it longer.









I bought mine for under $600 back when they were routinely listed for $800-$900 on Amazon (2013). I posted a review here. The gist of it was, they're nice enough for $500-$600, but no way in hell are they worth $800-$900.

Gotta give Invicta their due. At least they recognized it too, and now you can routinely find them for less than $400, which is just insane.

I have to think that if Glycine had been selling their watches with more realistic prices, they'd still be an independent brand.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> I wonder how many versions of the Combat Sub they've made. I wouldn't be surprised if it was as many, or even more than the NTH Subs.
> 
> I had the blue/orange for about six months, maybe a year, before I sold it to Bill Jones (yes, of the Bill Jones School of Photography fame), who gave it to his son.
> 
> View attachment 15011087


I preferred how you used those colours......










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> 43.75mm at the bezel.


Will that move you to a 22mm lug or do you plan on sticking with a 20mm?

Id kill for a 42/20 set up


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I bought mine for under $600 back when they were routinely listed for $800-$900 on Amazon (2013). I posted a review here. The gist of it was, they're nice enough for $500-$600, but no way in hell are they worth $800-$900.
> 
> Gotta give Invicta their due. At least they recognized it too, and now you can routinely find them for less than $400, which is just insane.
> 
> I have to think that if Glycine had been selling their watches with more realistic prices, they'd still be an independent brand.


Funniest quote from that thread, considering the lume on the NTH subs: Docvail, "Meh. I'm not a lume junkie." I mean, I know you don't have to have the same inclinations as your customers, but it does strike me as funny, considering the superlative lume on NTH subs...

Maybe things were different back in 2014, but if they were a small, independent brand today, a case could certainly be made for $800-900 being a reasonable price for "Swiss made" with a swiss movement. $500-600 would be a deal, and current pricing for these, is simply a steal. I mean, weren't you just talking about having to price Devil Rays way into the $700s, closing in on $800, if they were going to have a Swiss movement (if you could even get a run of Swiss movements)?

I guess the bigger the company, the better the economies of scale, up to a point... at which you can start charging way too much for stuff. Tissot Sea Star MSRP is $795 -- yes, you can find it cheaper, and I think where Glycine is concerned they are starting to play the Invicta marketing game with inflated MSRP, but regularly selling for a fraction of.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Hendu615 said:


> Absolutely loving the Oberon 2!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really digging the looks of this one. I went with the Amphion, but damn the Oberon is quite the looker too!!

Sent from a van down by the river...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Will that move you to a 22mm lug or do you plan on sticking with a 20mm?
> 
> Id kill for a 42/20 set up


22mm lugs.

Personally, I like 42mm for a diver, too, but so many guys asked for something bigger than that, and I always figured it doesn't make sense to make a watch in two sizes if they're only 2mm apart.

42mm is a weird size anyway, when it comes to the lug width. 20mm often looks too narrow. 22mm is too wide. 21mm is an odd number, and everyone whinges about how hard it is to find a strap.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

21mm lugs are.. ehhhh.

The real difficulty is not so much the strap (honestly, any leather or canvas 22mm strap fits perfectly well in 21mm lugs), it's getting spare springbars (esp. quick release ones) that's the sucky part.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Funniest quote from that thread, considering the lume on the NTH subs: Docvail, "Meh. I'm not a lume junkie." I mean, I know you don't have to have the same inclinations as your customers, but it does strike me as funny, considering the superlative lume on NTH subs...
> 
> Maybe things were different back in 2014, but if they were a small, independent brand today, a case could certainly be made for $800-900 being a reasonable price for "Swiss made" with a swiss movement. $500-600 would be a deal, and current pricing for these, is simply a steal. I mean, weren't you just talking about having to price Devil Rays way into the $700s, closing in on $800, if they were going to have a Swiss movement (if you could even get a run of Swiss movements)?
> 
> I guess the bigger the company, the better the economies of scale, up to a point... at which you can start charging way too much for stuff. Tissot Sea Star MSRP is $795 -- yes, you can find it cheaper, and I think where Glycine is concerned they are starting to play the Invicta marketing game with inflated MSRP, but regularly selling for a fraction of.


There are several brands selling "Swiss" (quotes used semi-sarcastically) watches with prices I simply don't understand. I do mean literally - I don't know how they can do it.

There's more to production costs than just the movement (the DevilRay's higher WR requires more materials and complex engineering), but the movement is a major cost. Before Swatch Group started their Shenanigans 2020 tour, the market prices for ETA or Selittas purchased in bulk would have increased our prices $100-$175 over what they are with a Miyota 9 inside, making a $650-$675 NTH Sub a $750-$850 watch. Now, that might be $200-$400 higher. So we're talking $850-$1100.

How Invicta can make a profit selling Glycines for under $400 is beyond me. The difference in WR and a few other components isn't enough to account for it. They must be cutting corners everywhere possible. But I'll be damned if I can point out more than a few obvious things - aluminum bezel, lackluster lume, flat crystal, meh finishing, etc. All of those added up don't really get you to $400 versus $600.

I wrote that review in 2014 - six years ago. Think about how much prices have gone up in six years. I thought the Combat Sub was a fair deal at ~$600, six years ago. How they're making and selling them for $400 now is mystifying.

Still - I'd love to see someone rationalize their way through paying $300 to service a $400 watch in 5-7 years. Even if you want to buy a new movement and drop it in yourself, it'll be close to $200, or half of what you spent on the watch. That sort of total-cost-of-ownership calculation starts to make them really expensive, pretty quickly.

What's Halios charging for anything with a Swiss movement in it? It's got to be $800-$900 now, right? Not even "Swiss Made" on the dial, but that seems to be the right ballpark. More if you opt for one with a bracelet.

This Coronavirus thing has completely clouded my ability to foresee the future for this industry. If you asked me in November, I'd have said all mid-market ($400-$1000 retail price) watch companies would be forced to raise prices by mid-2020. Now, I don't know what's going to happen.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> 21mm lugs are.. ehhhh.
> 
> The real difficulty is not so much the strap (honestly, any leather or canvas 22mm strap fits perfectly well in 21mm lugs), it's getting spare springbars (esp. quick release ones) that's the sucky part.


That whole odd-number lug width thing seems like the stupidest thing for the industry to have left not yet figured out all this time.

If a strap or spring bar maker is already making their product in 16, 18, 20, 22, and 24, why not just make them in every size from 16-24, so that watch manufacturers can quit worrying about making sure every watch's lugs have even-numbered widths?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> There are several brands selling "Swiss" (quotes used semi-sarcastically) watches with prices I simply don't understand. I do mean literally - I don't know how they can do it.
> 
> There's more to production costs than just the movement (the DevilRay's higher WR requires more materials and complex engineering), but the movement is a major cost. Before Swatch Group started their Shenanigans 2020 tour, the market prices for ETA or Selittas purchased in bulk would have increased our prices $100-$175 over what they are with a Miyota 9 inside, making a $650-$675 NTH Sub a $750-$850 watch. Now, that might be $200-$400 higher. So we're talking $850-$1100.
> 
> ...


There is the possibility that Japan and China are able to ramp up movement products and production and it could greatly lower the cost of movements if the global market is still slumping yet movement production is back to pre pandemic numbers. The likelihood of this pandemic causing watch prices to go up is slim. With the economic hit the world is taking it seems tough to see costs of watches going up.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> 22mm lugs.
> 
> Personally, I like 42mm for a diver, too, but so many guys asked for something bigger than that, and I always figured it doesn't make sense to make a watch in two sizes if they're only 2mm apart.
> 
> 42mm is a weird size anyway, when it comes to the lug width. 20mm often looks too narrow. 22mm is too wide. 21mm is an odd number, and everyone whinges about how hard it is to find a strap.


Im just in that weird spot I guess  My favorite "proportions" are 41/42 with 20mm lugs, the new seamasters execute that really well, but I agree its tough and doesnt make much sense to NTH to do a 42.

I think one issue I have on the 44/22 is no one seems to taper the bracelet. I wanted to like the Combat sub but couldnt do the straight bracelet.

Looking forward to what the rest of the year brings for NTH


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> Vail's finest work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What strap is that?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> What strap is that?


came with halios seaforth gen 2.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

I like the thinness of the Dolphin so much- 2nd hand blue Odin inbound!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Im just in that weird spot I guess  My favorite "proportions" are 41/42 with 20mm lugs, the new seamasters execute that really well, but I agree its tough and doesnt make much sense to NTH to do a 42.
> 
> I think one issue I have on the 44/22 is no one seems to taper the bracelet. I wanted to like the Combat sub but couldnt do the straight bracelet.
> 
> Looking forward to what the rest of the year brings for NTH


I noticed I said in 2014 that the bracelet didn't taper. I'm not positive that it didn't. Looking at the pics, it definitely looks like there's a slight taper, probably from 22mm to 20mm.

We taper the 40mm Subs' bracelet from 20mm down to 18mm, but many people don't seem to notice.

I haven't decided what we'll do with the XL Subs' bracelets yet. Maybe we'll do 22mm-18mm. Gotta figure that out still.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> I noticed I said in 2014 that the bracelet didn't taper. I'm not positive that it didn't Looking at the pics, it definitely looks like there's a slight taper, probably from 22mm to 20mm.
> 
> We taper the 40mm Subs' bracelet from 20mm down to 18mm, but many people don't seem to notice.
> 
> I haven't decided what we'll do with the XL Subs' bracelets yet. Maybe we'll do 22mm-18mm. Gotta figure that out still.


It may have....I might just notice the taper less on a larger bracelet.

I personally prefer a 4mm taper but I may not be in the majority.

Ill be completely honest, and this is my own issue to deal with.......The 40mm NTH sub was too thin for me 

It was a marvel of engineering but I like a tad more wrist presence at 40mm.

Im odd, just ignore me


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## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

So, I tried the NTH BoP bracelet on my Moonwatch, per a post in the older thread, and was very excited about how great it looked:









Until I put it on, and it did this. I thought a bigger diameter spring bar might fix it, but the BoP uses 1.5mm spring bars, while the Omega bracelet uses 1.8mm, and they won't fit in the BoP. It's so close!
Fortunately, I have another NTH it'll look good on.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Current Glycine prices are absolutely absurd. They make a ton of different variants, it's just a shame that they're mostly all different colors of basically the same two dial types. The KMZiZ showed years ago that the CS would be a good platform for going in a variety of different directions, but they just haven't done it until the recent "Explorer" version.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

New single pass straps for the brothers.


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## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> That whole odd-number lug width thing seems like the stupidest thing for the industry to have left not yet figured out all this time.
> 
> If a strap or spring bar maker is already making their product in 16, 18, 20, 22, and 24, why not just make them in every size from 16-24, so that watch manufacturers can quit worrying about making sure every watch's lugs have even-numbered widths?


There are plenty of springbars in odd numbers. Here's a set for $9 with 20 of each from 8mm through 25 mm.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/360pc-PROF...286559&hash=item58b1ea03b9:g:pJEAAOSwHnFVj0ZK

So someone's making them, and making a lot.


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## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> ... I thought the Combat Sub was a fair deal at ~$600, six years ago. How they're making and selling them for $400 now is mystifying.
> 
> Still - I'd love to see someone rationalize their way through paying $300 to service a $400 watch in 5-7 years. Even if you want to buy a new movement and drop it in yourself, it'll be close to $200, or half of what you spent on the watch. That sort of total-cost-of-ownership calculation starts to make them really expensive, pretty quickly.


Yeah, but if you have a 20 watch collection, and you wear most watches a couple of times a month, I bet you can easily get 10, or maybe even 20 years' worth of use and wear. I feel like people who buy Swiss watches in this price range aren't thinking about service costs (just like people who are thinking about buying Japanese-movement watches in this price range aren't really either-- it's either drop in a new movement or wear it till it dies).

OR, you wear it for 3-5 years then flip it and let the next sucker worry about service costs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> So, I tried the NTH BoP bracelet on my Moonwatch, per a post in the older thread, and was very excited about how great it looked:
> 
> View attachment 15012447
> 
> ...


Sorry mate. I was relying on another forum member @cmford (I think), who said they fit together rather well. Maybe there's some trick to it.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> hwa said:
> 
> 
> > 14. 15. Tomato Potato
> ...


I've met him. Wish I would have had more time to talk...hopefully we'll try to get together again...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> I've met him. Wish I would have had more time to talk...hopefully we'll try to get together again...


I've sat with Andrew before. That's why he knows I look like Spicoli. This will be a rematch. Maybe we can head up your way.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Current Glycine prices are absolutely absurd. They make a ton of different variants, it's just a shame that they're mostly all different colors of basically the same two dial types. The KMZiZ showed years ago that the CS would be a good platform for going in a variety of different directions, but they just haven't done it until the recent "Explorer" version.
> 
> View attachment 15012479


So, this one is real?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Still - I'd love to see someone rationalize their way through paying $300 to service a $400 watch in 5-7 years. Even if you want to buy a new movement and drop it in yourself, it'll be close to $200, or half of what you spent on the watch. That sort of total-cost-of-ownership calculation starts to make them really expensive, pretty quickly.


I certainly hope no one is paying $300 to get an ETA 2824 serviced. That should be like $150. Any watchmaker worth their salt should easily be able to handle a basic 3-hand ETA service, it's not like Glycine ever has to see the watch again. What I have a lot more trouble with than a $400 or $500 watch with an ETA or Sellita in it (plenty of micros are selling those) is a $500 or $600 watch with a Valjoux 7750/7753, because that _is_ $350+ to service, probably at least every 5 years. Even worse are the $500+ handwind or autochronos with Seagulls in them. I wonder if people buying those watches know what they are getting.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> So, this one is real?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup. It's one of the KMZiZ forum specials. Glycine made 50 of them.


----------



## Lagania (Jan 21, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> New single pass straps for the brothers.
> View attachment 15012483


Killer looking straps. I love the adjustable single pass straps on the subs Well done


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Hey Doc, can you guys install a Santa Cruz bezel insert onto a Blue Barracuda? I prefer the markers per minute up to the 15. 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> *I certainly hope no one is paying $300 to get an ETA 2824 serviced. That should be like $150*. Any watchmaker worth their salt should easily be able to handle a basic 3-hand ETA service, it's not like Glycine ever has to see the watch again. What I have a lot more trouble with than a $400 or $500 watch with an ETA or Sellita in it (plenty of micros are selling those) is a $500 or $600 watch with a Valjoux 7750/7753, because that _is_ $350+ to service, probably at least every 5 years. Even worse are the $500+ handwind or autochronos with Seagulls in them. I wonder if people buying those watches know what they are getting.


€220 incl vat and postage this side of the big pond. That includes a pressure test as well. I'm thinking of joining the watch abstinence thread as I can now see why people flip a watch before a service is due.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

kit7 said:


> €220 incl vat and postage this side of the big pond. That includes a pressure test as well. I'm thinking of joining the watch abstinence thread as I can now see why people flip a watch before a service is due.


That seems awfully high. I haven't asked my local watch lady what she'd charge to do my Oris, but I'd be surprised if her number started with a "2." I am curious what my multi-hand cocktails will cost to have done, but I'd guess it would make sense to just buy a new 6R21.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> GlenRoiland said:
> 
> 
> > I've met him. Wish I would have had more time to talk...hopefully we'll try to get together again...
> ...


Would love that. Ive been asked by some family members how I can consider somenof you guys as friends when we haven't met!

I've met a few of you guys including Rusty, Doc, HWA, Loren, etc. But wouldnt mind a longer session of discussion..


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

kit7 said:


> €220 incl vat and postage this side of the big pond. That includes a pressure test as well. I'm thinking of joining the watch abstinence thread as I can now see why people flip a watch before a service is due.


We're always open for new recruits to the brethren......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> Yeah, but if you have a 20 watch collection, and you wear most watches a couple of times a month, I bet you can easily get 10, or maybe even 20 years' worth of use and wear. I feel like people who buy Swiss watches in this price range aren't thinking about service costs (just like people who are thinking about buying Japanese-movement watches in this price range aren't really either-- it's either drop in a new movement or wear it till it dies).
> 
> OR, you wear it for 3-5 years then flip it and let the next sucker worry about service costs.


Based on what I've been told by multiple watchmakers, no, you can't go 10, and certainly not 20 years without servicing a Swiss movement, regardless of how infrequently you wear them, because the lubricants dry out. You're doing damage to the movement after 5-7 years.

Really, for a watch worn semi-frequently, 5 years is the max, and for a watch not worn frequently, 7 years should be the limit.

People have asked if and/or why the lubricants in the Japanese movements don't dry out. I can't answer. Possibly the lubricant they use is something different. Possibly the better finishing on the internal parts plays a role. Perhaps it's just a matter of economics, in that the movements don't make sense to service, so let them run until they die, then replace them.

I definitely don't think that most people buying affordable watches with Swiss movements are really thinking it through, if they think they're planning to keep the watches long-term. I don't see the point in spending $200-$300 every 5-7 years to service a $400-$1000 watch. I'd much rather have a Japanese movement, and not worry about it as long as the watch runs and keeps time well.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I certainly hope no one is paying $300 to get an ETA 2824 serviced. That should be like $150. Any watchmaker worth their salt should easily be able to handle a basic 3-hand ETA service, it's not like Glycine ever has to see the watch again. What I have a lot more trouble with than a $400 or $500 watch with an ETA or Sellita in it (plenty of micros are selling those) is a $500 or $600 watch with a Valjoux 7750/7753, because that _is_ $350+ to service, probably at least every 5 years. Even worse are the $500+ handwind or autochronos with Seagulls in them. I wonder if people buying those watches know what they are getting.


Please let us know where you're getting an ETA serviced for $150. My watchmaker Dan, who works cheap (for me) quoted me $200, as a commercial rate.

I suppose it somewhat depends on location. I've asked multiple watchmakers, but mostly here in the Philadelphia area, where the costs of doing business are likely higher than some other parts of the country.

But, I've spoke to people in other parts of the world, and the rates I've been quoted are all within the same ballpark, from $200-$300, with most clustered in the upper end of that range.

Not being a watchmaker, I haven't done it myself, but I'm pretty sure it's a few hours of work, maybe even half a day.

Perhaps we're not all sharing the same understanding of what's involved. My understanding is the service is basically a complete disassembly of the movement (requiring complete disassembly of the watch), cleaning all parts, repairing/replacing any which are damaged, and re-assembling (first the movement, then the watch), and regulation.

For all that, $200-$300 seems very fair, to me.

It's not just about the time involved, though the time spent and their labor rates are a factor. A watchmaker has to cover the overhead of his shop, pay for ultrasonic cleaners, timegraphers, automatic winders, demagnetizers, pressure-testers, and all his other tools and equipment.

How much do we think a watchmaker's hourly rate would be? I think $50/hour for an independent with his own shop to maintain is an insanely good deal. I think most would be more likely to charge closer to $100/hour.

$50 per hour, times 40 hours per week, times 50 weeks per year, is $100,000, gross. From that, a watchmaker would need to pay all the overhead of his shop, buy/replace tools and equipment, pay taxes, and pay himself. It doesn't sound like very much money would be left over for the guy doing the work.

If a watchmaker just sat there and did 2 services per day, at $300 each, with occasional interruptions to answer the phone and deal with customers coming in, he'd gross $150,000 per year. Still not a ton left over after covering all his overhead and taxes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yup. It's one of the KMZiZ forum specials. Glycine made 50 of them.
> 
> View attachment 15013045


They could have sold 500 of them.

It's a great design. With Glycine's name recognition and their pricing, 500 would have been no problem. Perhaps they could have sold 5,000.

Limiting that design to just 50 pieces is a crime.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> Hey Doc, can you guys install a Santa Cruz bezel insert onto a Blue Barracuda? I prefer the markers per minute up to the 15.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Not at this time, but we'll be selling bezel inserts on the website within the next 30 days, and you can do the swap yourself, if you like.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kit7 said:


> €220 incl vat and postage this side of the big pond. That includes a pressure test as well. I'm thinking of joining the watch abstinence thread as I can now see why people flip a watch before a service is due.


That's $240 at today's rates, and a pretty good deal, I think.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The discussion of servicing costs always surprises me, particularly when I read what people think it ought to cost.

How many watchmakers are there in the world? They're certainly not on every street corner. The one in my town is the only one for an hour's drive in every direction. There might be half a dozen watchmaking schools in the US, if that, and the typical graduating class might be just 4 to 6 people.

It's a dying craft, and most watchmakers have more work than they can handle. I've been shocked at how LITTLE they charge, given that there's so few of them out there, and they could effectively set their rates anywhere they want.

My local guy works 6 days per week, but only opens his doors 3 of them, so he can get work done the other 3. I've been there on the days when he's open, and he literally gets people coming in the entire time. As an authorized Rolex service center, he charges $200-$300 LESS than the local AD does to service a Rolex. I've told him he should increase all his rates. He's too cheap, even at $300, which is why he's so crazy-busy.

Yes, you can mail your watch off to someone cheaper, but then you're dealing with someone you've never seen face-to-face. You've never seen their shop. You have no idea how competent they are. You're dealing with the risks involved in shipping. If anything goes wrong, like, the guy stops responding to your calls or emails, you can't just go there and get your watch, like I can, with the guy a half mile from my house.

I think $300 to service a basic three-hand automatic is very fair, if not cheap, knowing what little I do about what's involved in running a business like that.


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

So I've been through the whole omega/Tudor/Rolex thing with a few from each brand and have ended up selling the lot.

One I've missed since selling was the Pelagos, but it had to go. I found it too big and too thick.

So last week I was looking for a new diver and remembered NTH and the Näcken. Started looking into it and was quickly sold. 40 mm - check. 11.5mm thick - check. Safire glas - yes please. Drilled lugs to boot and in a modern take with a nod to Tudor subs of old?

Yeah, I was sold.

I've been more eagerly awaiting this thing, than if it had been a Rolex or Tudor or other... and receiving it just made me happy and content.

That said, I already know I'm screwed, it won't be the only NTH in my stable, already looking to flip a couple of others to make way for the next one.

(Original bracelet not on the watch since I need to source a 1.2 min screwdriver)


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

I have a number of NTH models, and they are all incredible in their own right. This one brings a smile to my face and is one of my favorites (neck and neck with my Nacken Renegade).










Sent from a van down by the river...


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Not at this time, but we'll be selling bezel inserts on the website within the next 30 days, and you can do the swap yourself, if you like.


Thanks Chris, that answers my question. I assume the blues are the same hue?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

sweeperdk01 said:


> So I've been through the whole omega/Tudor/Rolex thing with a few from each brand and have ended up selling the lot.
> 
> One I've missed since selling was the Pelagos, but it had to go. I found it too big and too thick.
> 
> ...


That's the Ginault bracelet?


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

Dec1968 said:


> That's the Ginault bracelet?


It is.

I just did a quick switcharoo to see what it looked like since I couldn't resize the original bracelet.

It's since landed on a B&J gray NATO for now but will most likely live it's life on an EO MN strap.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

sweeperdk01 said:


> It is.
> 
> I just did a quick switcharoo to see what it looked like since I couldn't resize the original bracelet.
> 
> It's since landed on a B&J gray NATO for now but will most likely live it's life on an EO MN strap.


How do the end links fit? That's always the concern. I think I saw a previous post on this with pics, but I wanted to ask if there is any play or fitment issues. Thanks in advance.


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

Dec1968 said:


> How do the end links fit? That's always the concern. I think I saw a previous post on this with pics, but I wanted to ask if there is any play or fitment issues. Thanks in advance.


The end links are tight. No play or anything. It's a quite secure fit.

Easy to put on.

That said, the gap or whatever you'd call it, is noticeable.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Not at this time, but we'll be selling bezel inserts on the website within the next 30 days, and you can do the swap yourself, if you like.


Ohhh this is very interesting to me, choose your own adventure.

Understanding this is at our own risk, do you recommend popping the insert out or properly removing the entire bezel assembly? If just popping the insert out, is there adhesive or are the friction fit?


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

What bracelet is on there?

Disregard, saw you answered that in the following post



sweeperdk01 said:


> So I've been through the whole omega/Tudor/Rolex thing with a few from each brand and have ended up selling the lot.
> 
> One I've missed since selling was the Pelagos, but it had to go. I found it too big and too thick.
> 
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> Thanks Chris, that answers my question. I assume the blues are the same hue?


Yes and no.

The color we specify is the same ("dark blue"), but with PVD/DLC plating, the colors can vary slightly from one batch to the next, so the blue might be slightly lighter or darker, depending on when it was made. You wouldn't notice it if you only had one in hand, but if you had two to compare to each other, you might.

We just went through all the bezel inserts we have last week, and found that there's also some slight variation with the appearance of the lume on the bezels. On one Santa Cruz bezel, the lume might appear to be a shade lighter or darker on the next one. Again, you'd never notice it if you only saw one, but with two in hand, the differences are more clear.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Ohhh this is very interesting to me, choose your own adventure.
> 
> Understanding this is at our own risk, do you recommend popping the insert out or properly removing the entire bezel assembly? If just popping the insert out, is there adhesive or are the friction fit?


I recommend you follow the instructions we'll include on the product page of the website.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sweeperdk01 said:


> The end links are tight. No play or anything. It's a quite secure fit.
> 
> Easy to put on.
> 
> That said, the gap or whatever you'd call it, is noticeable.


Some people like the gap.

Weird people, if you ask me, but, some like it.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

sweeperdk01 said:


> The end links are tight. No play or anything. It's a quite secure fit.
> 
> Easy to put on.
> 
> That said, the gap or whatever you'd call it, is noticeable.


So.....can you use the NTH end links and ft the Ginault bracelet onto them? Depends on how the spacing is, hole size, etc. - just super curious.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> The color we specify is the same ("dark blue"), but with PVD/DLC plating, the colors can vary slightly from one batch to the next, so the blue might be slightly lighter or darker, depending on when it was made. You wouldn't notice it if you only had one in hand, but if you had two to compare to each other, you might.
> 
> We just went through all the bezel inserts we have last week, and found that there's also some slight variation with the appearance of the lume on the bezels. On one Santa Cruz bezel, the lume might appear to be a shade lighter or darker on the next one. Again, you'd never notice it if you only saw one, but with two in hand, the differences are more clear.


I trust that your level of matching exceeds most others, so that is good info. Thank you sir.

Kicking myself not not jumping on the Barracuda Vintage Black. Seems to be sold out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> So.....can you use the NTH end links and ft the Ginault bracelet onto them? Depends on how the spacing is, hole size, etc. - just super curious.


How are you going to get the end-links separated from the next link in the bracelet, and back together again?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> I trust that your level of matching exceeds most others, so that is good info. Thank you sir.
> 
> Kicking myself not not jumping on the Barracuda Vintage Black. Seems to be sold out.


They come up for sale used, sometimes. Set up an alert on eBay and WatchRecon.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm not divulging my favorite sub because I don't need WR/eBay competition. Even from Doc now. :-d Btw, are the "CPO" Subs launching soon?



docvail said:


> I think $300 to service a basic three-hand automatic is very fair, if not cheap, knowing what little I do about what's involved in running a business like that.


I don't believe my ~12-y/o 114270 has been serviced and will be sending that to RSC within the next year... not really looking forward to that, but knew the costs going in (it's running +1-2s/d and haven't really wanted to mess with it). I miss the ownership "costs" of the 9015/90S5!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> I trust that your level of matching exceeds most others, so that is good info. Thank you sir.
> 
> Kicking myself not not jumping on the Barracuda Vintage Black. Seems to be sold out.


I have to admit I'm surprised to find you here, expressing interest in NTH, given some of your past comments about me.



Dec1968 said:


> His reputation is well-deserved, and you are correct, not a good reputation. _Arrogant_ is one word that comes to mind.


Happy to have anyone join in the discussion, especially if they're sincerely interested in what we're doing, not simply trolling or looking for an opportunity to cause trouble. I'd prefer this and any discussion of NTH didn't go the way those Ginault threads seem to go, where I seem to recall seeing you say you weren't interested in homages, but I may be misremembering.

Should I take your comments here as a sign your impression of the brand owner (or your view on homages) has changed since then?


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

Dec1968 said:


> So.....can you use the NTH end links and ft the Ginault bracelet onto them? Depends on how the spacing is, hole size, etc. - just super curious.


.......... in theory I guess.

Not sure how one would do that though, considering it's not really possible to just remove the end links on either bracelet.


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> Some people like the gap.
> 
> Weird people, if you ask me, but, some like it.


Yeah it's not for me. A slight gap, fair enough, but that right there just looks wrong IMO.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> So.....can you use the NTH end links and ft the Ginault bracelet onto them? Depends on how the spacing is, hole size, etc. - just super curious.


I dont think there is a screw pin at the end link so I dont know how you would separate the end link off the bracelet


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> I'm not divulging my favorite sub because I don't need WR/eBay competition. Even from Doc now. :-d Btw, are the "CPO" Subs launching soon?
> 
> I don't believe my ~12-y/o 114270 has been serviced and will be sending that to RSC within the next year... not really looking forward to that, but knew the costs going in (it's running +1-2s/d and haven't really wanted to mess with it). I miss the ownership "costs" of the 9015/90S5!


Soon. It's been a busy few weeks, especially since this past Thursday, when my friend's son was killed. I spent the entire day Friday and some of the weekend dealing with fundraising for his family, and the many messages which have come my way, by way of the fundraiser.

Also, some complete waste of human flesh saw the fundraiser on Facebook, and decided it would be the perfect opportunity to scam people. This person created a FB account named "Chris Vail", using the same home town and profile pics I was using, then proceeded to send private messages to the people who'd donated, pretending to be me, and asking them to send money directly.

FB has since removed the account, as many of those people know me, and knew it wasn't me, so they reported it. Still, there was a couple hours of my time, spent changing passwords, updating my account, and sending messages to everyone who'd donated, warning them of the potential scam.

The good news is we've raised over $42,000 so far. There's talk of starting some sort of foundation, in Noah's name, with the money not spent on his funeral expenses.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks, Doc. There are much more important areas to focus on right now and reading your earlier post about Noah was heartbreaking. As a parent, I don't know how I would ever handle that nor do I think I could live any semblance of the life I had before again. I appreciate your help in helping a friend and refocusing your attention there.

This is a crazy time to be walking the earth. I am trying to take as much good as possible out of our new normal of isolation and focusing as much time on my family as I can. I even baked a cake from scratch with my son this morning! I've never done that before and probably wouldn't have made time for that if life hadn't changed.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Service sounds like a drag. I’m going to have to forget all of this discussion when Atticus reboots. 

Maybe bring this back up at the staff meeting?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> I have to admit I'm surprised to find you here, expressing interest in NTH, given some of your past comments about me.
> 
> Happy to have anyone join in the discussion, especially if they're sincerely interested in what we're doing, not simply trolling or looking for an opportunity to cause trouble. I'd prefer this and any discussion of NTH didn't go the way those Ginault threads seem to go, where I seem to recall seeing you say you weren't interested in homages, but I may be misremembering.
> 
> Should I take your comments here as a sign your impression of the brand owner (or your view on homages) has changed since then?


Admittedly I took you as arrogant - and it caused me to keep the brand at a distance. I continued to watch the brand evolve, see how the interactions went, etc.

I was wrong about you. Took me some time to reach that conclusion. My apologies.

Believe me, you're as far from the Ginault mindset I have as can be. You are the genuine article.

I'm still in the 'no homage' camp, but seeing NTH evolve and create some very unique and impressive pieces has me wanting to give one a go. I don't see the NTH models being so close to another 'other branded' watch so as to be considered a true homage. That's a compliment to you and NTH. You have forged an identity for the brand. Nice work.

I'm a huge fan of the (no date) Santa Cruz, the Barracuda Blue, and a few others are growing on me.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Not at this time, but we'll be selling bezel inserts on the website within the next 30 days, and you can do the swap yourself, if you like.


Ooo...


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

sweeperdk01 said:


> .......... in theory I guess.
> 
> Not sure how one would do that though, considering it's not really possible to just remove the end links on either bracelet.


Ok so the end link and the first link aren't separable as they are with other brands. Makes sense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Thanks, Doc. There are much more important areas to focus on right now and reading your earlier post about Noah was heartbreaking. As a parent, I don't know how I would ever handle that nor do I think I could live any semblance of the life I had before again. I appreciate your help in helping a friend and refocusing your attention there.
> 
> This is a crazy time to be walking the earth. I am trying to take as much good as possible out of our new normal of isolation and focusing as much time on my family as I can. I even baked a cake from scratch with my son this morning! I've never done that before and probably wouldn't have made time for that if life hadn't changed.


Likewise, I'm trying to take some good away from the last few weeks.

I was able to speak to Noah's father, my friend Nate, late Friday. I was amazed at how calm he was. I think he was still in a state of shock, just going through a mental checklist in his head - wake up, get dressed, answer the phone, etc.

He and I were part of a circle of close friends from college, who've stayed in touch the last 30 years, but I haven't had much contact with all of them in the last 5 or 6. We created a group chat on Facebook Messenger, too coordinate support for Nate's family, which has brought us all back together again. Last night we did a Zoom video conference, and it was fun to talk to so many of them again, after not seeing some of them for 30 years.

Seeing the outpouring of love and sympathy for his family has been heartwarming. It's not like I *expect* to see people I do business with kicking in, but it is nice when it happens. John Keil kicked in, as did my attorney, and my vendor in HK. Guys who went through Microbrand University kicked in, which was unexpected, and makes me feel good, if that's a reflection of how they feel about me.

The slow down in business has given me time to get caught up on some other things, like the XL Subs. I was just looking in my email to see if and when we got a 3D file of the case returned from my vendor. We did - on April 3rd of last year. It looks like I sent them our original drawings in mid-February last year, which means Rusty and I must have been working on it for at least a month before that. It's long past due that we finished it.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Re: Service costs, most indies don't list prices upfront, so I can't say what Nesbit's or Carignan or some of the other well known shops would charge for a 2824 service without asking them. Longines quotes $230 for a basic automatic service. Gnomon says "from $150" to service an automatic. So far that's all I've been able to find around that level with a quick google search.

Incidentally, Seiko USA says $260 to do a 6R21. Same price to do a 6R15. I honestly don't know why they even bother with anything less than an 8L35. Unless a replacement 6R21 costs _substantially_ more than an NE15, I'll almost certainly just be putting in new movements when the time comes.


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## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Re: BoP on the Moonwatch:


docvail said:


> Sorry mate. I was relying on another forum member @cmford (I think), who said they fit together rather well. Maybe there's some trick to it.


Yes, I knew it was a gamble, as end link fitting always is. It was a good thing to experiment on while waiting for work tasks.

It's close enough that a small dimensional tolerance shift in either the watch or the bracelet (or both) could easily keep that end link from flipping - I had multiple pics and a brief wearing period before it decided to swap ends on me. I'm contemplating a few approaches to it, which will all go on my watch project to-do list. Small risk of them getting accomplished!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> Re: BoP on the Moonwatch:
> 
> Yes, I knew it was a gamble, as end link fitting always is. It was a good thing to experiment on while waiting for work tasks.
> 
> It's close enough that a small dimensional tolerance shift in either the watch or the bracelet (or both) could easily keep that end link from flipping - I had multiple pics and a brief wearing period before it decided to swap ends on me. I'm contemplating a few approaches to it, which will all go on my watch project to-do list. Small risk of them getting accomplished!


This idea isn't the most elegant, just my first, but...if we're talking about fractions of a millimeter, I wonder if lining the inner surface of the end-link with some masking tape wouldn't be enough to tighten the fit to the point the links don't pivot up, as seen in your pic.

As long as the thickness of the tape doesn't push the springbar out of alignment with the lug holes, that might work.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: Service costs, most indies don't list prices upfront, so I can't say what Nesbit's or Carignan or some of the other well known shops would charge for a 2824 service without asking them. Longines quotes $230 for a basic automatic service. Gnomon says "from $150" to service an automatic. So far that's all I've been able to find around that level with a quick google search.
> 
> Incidentally, Seiko USA says $260 to do a 6R21. Same price to do a 6R15. I honestly don't know why they even bother with anything less than an 8L35. Unless a replacement 6R21 costs _substantially_ more than an NE15, I'll almost certainly just be putting in new movements when the time comes.


Longines quotes you $230 - assuming you take it into an AD, not including shipping it back to them (or return shipping, I bet), correct?

That's actually a good deal, depending on what it costs to send it in and get it back, which is likely to land you right around $300. But keep in mind - the work is likely to be done by someone they bring in from the hinterlands of Europe, not a "Swiss" watchmaker, or perhaps they just ship it off to be done in Asia.

Gnomon's "from" $150 isn't likely to be only $150, and again, doesn't include shipping it to them. It probably also doesn't include return shipping. And again, since they're in Singapore, have fun dealing with them, and as long as it takes.

Trust me. This isn't the first time I've looked into this. Over the last seven years, I've canvased this forum and elsewhere, multiple times. If I tell you you're looking at $200-$300 for a basic service, you're looking at $200-$300 for a basic service, and if you want to take a chance shipping it off to someone, somewhere, offering to do it for less, be my guest.

$300 for a service from my local guy, Peter Whittle, is actually a steal. He went through WOSTEP _in Switzerland_, is authorized to service Rolex and Omega, he's a past president of one of the wathcmakers associations (AWCI, I think), and has his own shop. I can't understand how or why anyone wouldn't think it was worth $300 of his time, to have him service their watch, but, to each their own.

Here's an article the Philly Inquirer recently posted, featuring Peter - https://www.inquirer.com/news/whittles-watch-repair-wayne-rolex-clock-20191223.html. According to the article (which references bureau of labor stats), there are fewer than 6,000 watchmakers left in the USA. Tell me again how they should spend half a day doing a service, for only $150?!?!?

On a related note, I received this message through our contact page yesterday, which may be of interest to folks here, looking for service.









I looked Hunlock Creek up on the map. It's on the outskirts of Wilkes Barre, PA, which might as well be another planet. It's in the middle of nowhere. Perhaps he'd accept less than Peter would, here in the Philly Suburbs.


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Rocking my second favorite Sub today. This dial is awesome and so different depending on lighting.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Longines quotes you $230 - assuming you take it into an AD, not including shipping it back to them (or return shipping, I bet), correct?
> 
> That's actually a good deal, depending on what it costs to send it in and get it back, which is likely to land you right around $300. But keep in mind - the work is likely to be done by someone they bring in from the hinterlands of Europe, not a "Swiss" watchmaker, or perhaps they just ship it off to be done in Asia.
> 
> ...


A few places around me $200 for a Eta three hand service. Say you service a watch you love every 5-10 years for $200 bucks or you buy a new miyota 9015 to have dropped in the prices will be close? Either way if you love the watch you are going to want to keep it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> A few places around me $200 for a Eta three hand service. Say you service a watch you love every 5-10 years for $200 bucks or you buy a new miyota 9015 to have dropped in the prices will be close? Either way if you love the watch you are going to want to keep it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


The difference is in the interval time. A 9015 is roughly $100 to buy retail, and a watchmaker is likely to charge at least $50 to open your existing watch up, swap movements, check/replace seals as necessary, pressure test, etc. Assuming the 2824 doesn't need a bunch of parts replaced, it wouldn't be a huge difference in cost. It's just that the 9015 can keep on truckin' for well over a decade.

The local watch lady here in PDX is also authorized to service Omega and Rolex. I had her clean my SKX after I got it back from another guy. The fact that it needed cleaning should tell you why I won't be using that guy anymore. When I went in to pick it up, she and I spent about an hour geeking out about watches. It was glorious. Just in case any of ya'll are also around here:

https://pearl-watch-repair-watch-repair-service.business.site/


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> I've met him. Wish I would have had more time to talk...hopefully we'll try to get together again...


Our time will come. You were busy with God's work; I was not

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> Just in case any of ya'll are also around here


Picked up my Exp1 at Watchworks. I adore PDX.

|>


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Been thinking about my old Odin... might be time.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If there's a place, or even better, a few, that service ETAs and Selittas for $200, post links, so everyone can get their watches serviced there.

I'll wait.

Again, I'm just telling you what actual watchmakers - guys who actually know what they're talking about, not just guys on the internet who pretend to know - have told me. They've told me that 5-7 years is the max you should go between services on a Swiss movement, even if you're not wearing the same watch all the time, even if you're rotating through a collection.

Meanwhile, the Miyota 9015 was introduced in 2010. This is 2020. It's been around 10 years. There are hundreds of thousands of them in circulation. Anyone here have one require servicing yet? Anyone?

Anyone?

Anyone?

I'm looking at retail prices for movements, new, sold one piece at a time, from a reputable supplier, right now. The standard grade ETA is $179. The SW200 is $175. 

Miyota 9015? $99.

Assume you can install one yourself. It's not impossible to do, at all. Your absolute, rock-bottom service costs would be a straight replacement. The Swiss movement will cost you $175-$179, every 7 years. 

The Miyota will run for at least 10 years, and I'd bet *A LOT* of money it'll run a helluva lot longer than that. But, say it will *only* run 10 years. Your cost of replacement is $99, every 10 years.

This all assumes you'll still be able to get any of these movements in 7 or 10 years, but, assume you will. Let's add $20 for shipping. The Swiss movement adds about $30 per year to your ownership costs. The Miyota adds $12 (worst case). 

If you can't buy one, and/or put it in yourself, then you'll be paying someone else to service or replace it, adding even more to your annual ownership costs. The shorter the service interval, and the more expensive the movement is to service or replace, the more expensive the watch truly is. 

This doesn't even get into the open question about whether or not the Swiss movements (and parts for them) will be available long-term. ETA is cutting off the independent repair network, and seems to be phasing out the 2824-2 in favor of newer calibres. It still remains to be seen how viable Selitta is, without support from ETA. Selitta isn't reputed to have ETA's quality (again, according to actual watchmakers I've spoken to, not internet "experts").

If someone prefers an entry-level Swiss movement for some reason, despite being an ages-old design, which is thicker than the 9015, with a lower power reserve, and less accurate than the 9015, and is more expensive to own and maintain, okay, that's cool, even if it makes no sense at all to me.

But don't pretend there's no big difference, or worse, that the Swiss movement somehow makes more sense in an affordable watch, especially when we know most people are *NOT* going to have their watches serviced when they should, meaning the performance will only deteriorate over time, and the service will only be that much more expensive when it's finally done.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather take my chances on a movement that is likely to run for decades, but can be replaced for $99 if need be, then take a chance with a movement that will definitely require a $175 replacement to a $300 or more service every 5-7 years. On what planet is that not a substantial difference?

Certainly not Earth.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

Random pic.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> a movement that will definitely require a $175 replacement to a $300 or more service every 5-7 years.


Please stop. This is absurd. My 9 year old Christopher Ward (with an ETA 2824) is running just fine. I'm sure MANY here have much older watches that are running just fine. My brother-in-law, who used to own a pawn shop, routinely bought decades old, never serviced Swiss watches that ran just fine.

The notion that every Swiss movement is going to definitely (your word) require an expensive service in less than 7 years is completely unsupported by actual experience.

And there are plenty of options for replacing a 2824. A Seagull ST2130 clone sells for $50 on ebay.


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## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

I have owned one example of each. In my small experience here, the ETA was the better performer. But for the the price, the 9015 is a winner.

(My ETA 2824-2 vs 9015)

Pros: higher amps, less positional difference and variation, kept lower beat error, was much easier to regulate, visually a higher grade, instant date change at midnight.

Cons: price, manual wind has resistance however this is normal (metal on metal grind)

I’ll be curious to see which movement has overall more longevity as the 9015 model is now 11 years old.. but this would also depend on other variables.

Every movement varies and you also have to consider if the watches history (drops). My 9015 ran very well and I had zero issues with it. I’d own another. I plan on running all of my watches until I notice red flags. Then I’ll attempt a service myself and if that goes wrong for whatever reason, drop in another movement.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I tend to not have a strong preference either way whether a watch has a Miyota or ETA. I have both and enjoy both the same.

I like the "cache" of having at least one Swiss movement in the collection but it's not something I necessarily need.

I look at the two movements as equal in terms of performance/quality.

Miyota tend to be less desireable which means less cost on secondary market which is big benefit for myself personally. 

With that said, Atm, I happen to have only 1 Miyota and 5 Swiss. This just happens to be the case because I appreciate those specific watches for their aestetichs and would be just as happy if they had a Miyota. 

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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Avo said:


> Please stop. This is absurd. My 9 year old Christopher Ward (with an ETA 2824) is running just fine. I'm sure MANY here have much older watches that are running just fine. My brother-in-law, who used to own a pawn shop, routinely bought decades old, never serviced Swiss watches that ran just fine.
> 
> The notion that every Swiss movement is going to definitely (your word) require an expensive service in less than 7 years is completely unsupported by actual experience.
> 
> And there are plenty of options for replacing a 2824. A Seagull ST2130 clone sells for $50 on ebay.


With dozens each of Miyota, ETA and Sellita here, almost none of them have shown any signs of problems and some are getting pretty old.

One 2893 had to go in to Gnomon for warranty work as the rotor was turning while being hand wound in the horizontal position. I could wind it vertically ok, but decided to get it fixed while still under warranty.

Otherwise all the Glycine, Eterna, CW, Oris, Deep Blue, Bulova, Mondaine, etc. with Sellita have been flawless. And the ETA powered Squale, Steinhart, Helson, Glycine, Bulova, San Martin, CW, Hamilton, etc. have been perfect as well.

Actually do have one 9015 with a balky date quickset that I have been thinking of having repaired under warranty now that there is a 6 year warranty period at that microbrand. I figure 1 naughty one out of 18 here is pretty good.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Say a person wanted to avoid Swiss movements for whatever reason. What options are there for higher end watches with Miyota movements? 

Are auto Grand Seikos expected to have service needs similar to ETA?

Would Spring Drive be expected to have more/less service needs compared to GS autos?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Please stop. This is absurd. My 9 year old Christopher Ward (with an ETA 2824) is running just fine. I'm sure MANY here have much older watches that are running just fine. My brother-in-law, who used to own a pawn shop, routinely bought decades old, never serviced Swiss watches that ran just fine.
> 
> The notion that every Swiss movement is going to definitely (your word) require an expensive service in less than 7 years is completely unsupported by actual experience.
> 
> And there are plenty of options for replacing a 2824. A Seagull ST2130 clone sells for $50 on ebay.


It isn't absurd at all.

I know people who drove cars without changing the oil at the recommended interval. Those cars ran fine, until they didn't.

A watch can "run fine", while being in desperate need of service. What's happening in the movement isn't good. The lubricants have dissipated, and you're basically grinding gears. If and when you do finally get that movement serviced, odds are high you'll need to replace more parts than you would have had you had the servicing done when recommended.

Yes, you can drop a Chinese-made ST21 into that space, of course. But those aren't the same. I wouldn't expect the ST21 to be as reliable. Do you know what happens when you buy a drop in movement, and it turns out to be a dud? You have to buy a new movement. There's no warranty on them, as far as I know.

And, if you're the owner of a watch that originally came with an ETA or Selitta, which you bought because you preferred it to a watch with a lowly Japanese movement, are you really going to want to swap in a Chinese movement?

Who's "actual experience" are we supposed to rely upon here? Your brother-in-law, the pawn shop owner, or the half dozen watchmakers I've talked to, two of whom have 30 years watchmaking experience?

Your brother in law, when he bought these watches, how did he know they were *never* serviced, and how did he *know* they ran fine? Did he have them inspected by a watchmaker, or did he just wind them up to see if they'd run? A watch in need of service can run well enough to pass a basic function check. I should know, as I've made the mistake of doing a basic function check as final QC, and missed watches that weren't actually running well, and needed work.

We had plenty of STP's that seemed to run fine, but were returned under warranty within a few months - because they weren't actually running fine, despite initial appearances.

This is such a tired, pointless argument, that I'm so over having every six months. Believe what you like. Listen to the guys on forums or brothers in law who own pawn shops. I'll listen to actual watchmakers.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Actually do have one 9015 with a balky date quickset that I have been thinking of having repaired under warranty now that there is a 6 year warranty period at that microbrand. I figure 1 naughty one out of 18 here is pretty good.


I assume you're referring to an NTH. If it's acting up, send it in for us to look at it. We'll sort it out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Say a person wanted to avoid Swiss movements for whatever reason. What options are there for higher end watches with Miyota movements?
> 
> Are auto Grand Seikos expected to have service needs similar to ETA?
> 
> ...


As far as I know, neither Seiko nor Miyota wholesale any mechanical movements which are "higher end" than the 9015 or 6r15, at least for now. If you wanted something better, from either, you'd have to by a Seiko or Citizen, or something from one of their upper-end brands, like Grand Seiko, Credor, and Campanola.

I honestly have no idea what the service requirements are with Grand Seikos. I feel like I'm supposed to be very interested in the wiz-bang innovation of Grand Seiko, Spring Drive, etc, but the truth is, I'm just not all that enamored with much beyond the part of the industry I dwell within.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This discussion of service intervals and costs reminds me of a reoccurring discussion between some friends of mine. 

My closest friend from high school, Sean, is the service manager at an auto dealership. Our mutual friend Darren is also a mechanic. Through them, I've met another guy, Dennis, who has spent years consulting with independent auto repair shops, on how to improve their businesses, and another guy, Mike, who runs an wholesale auto parts business. As you can imagine, when we all get together, the conversations always drift back to cars, but more specifically, the business of working on them.

Since I know next to nothing about working on cars (I've changed air filters and spark plugs on my own, but not much else in the way of home auto maintenance), I understand how many people would be fearful that a mechanic would suggest unnecessary services, in order to rip a customer off. We've all heard those stories, or seen those exposés done by investigative journalists. And, it seems that dealing with that perception is one of the biggest challenges for auto repair shops, or perhaps it's just that most people tend to push off any and all services until they're absolutely necessary.

Dennis, the automotive repair business consultant, always comes back to the one thing that would make a huge difference in those auto repair businesses - if more shops would simply ask every customer who comes in, no matter what they come in to have done, if they want a free multi-point safety inspection. The safety inspection frequently reveals work that needs to be done, despite the car's owner being completely unaware of it, because the problem hasn't gotten to the point where it's causing symptoms to show. 

It's good for the auto repair business, but it's not ripping off the customer in any way. If the customer declines the safety inspection, or decides not to do any of the recommended work, they don't get pressure from the mechanic. But, however many accept the offer and do the work, those are customers they helped, and more revenue for the business.

My 19-year-old VW Passat runs fine. The check engine light is permanently on, because it needs new catalytic converters, and only half the buttons on the stereo work, and the heat/ac are kinda meh, and I think I recall a mechanic telling me there were some rubber engine mounts that were in need of replacement, due to just being old and dry-rotted. Fixing all that would cost me way more than the car is worth, and like I said, it actually runs fine, and still passes the state's required annual inspections.

I'm not going to have any of that stuff fixed. Maybe the engine mounts, depending on what that would cost, but the rest, no way. The car runs fine. Just the catalytic converters would cost 4x what the car might be worth. I plan to give the car to my son soon, and already told him, if he isn't too hard on it, it should last him a couple years, maybe even get him through college. That doesn't mean it doesn't need work, though.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Chris, ol buddy ol pal, there are good reasons for you as a watch company owner to choose one movement or another over others, but for many of us, including me, the notion that anyone actually would pay $200-300 to service a $200 movement is laughably silly and bordering on stupid. Servicing a cheap movement that’s readily replaceable is the epitome of throwing good money after bad, unless unless unless it’s part of some truly collectible watch that somehow would be devalued by a drop-in replacement.

These ain’t old Rolexes we’re discussing here.

Accept this, and we can all move on.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

What if that $200 movement is in a $1500 watch?

P.S. 
I have real difficulty squaring the two persistent WUS "facts", i.e. 1) "Watch movements are too cheap to service" vs. 2) "automatic watch movements give the watch a soul, and everything non-mechanical is worthless".

So which is it? Are those sets of gears somehow holding a soul (if so, surely that's worth servicing?), or are the movements too cheap to bother with (if so, why don't we all just switch to the fundamentally superior quartz tech?)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Chris, ol buddy ol pal, there are good reasons for you as a watch company owner to choose one movement or another over others, but for many of us, including me, the notion that anyone actually would pay $200-300 to service a $200 movement is laughably silly and bordering on stupid. Servicing a cheap movement that's readily replaceable is the epitome of throwing good money after bad, unless unless unless it's part of some truly collectible watch that somehow would be devalued by a drop-in replacement.
> 
> These ain't old Rolexes we're discussing here.
> 
> ...


You just repeated the exact point I've been making.

As I've said, many times, it makes more sense to replace the movement, than service it, if replacing it is cheaper than servicing it.

That said, even an ETA or Selitta replacement will run close to $200, when you add shipping, and comes with no warranty on the movement or the work being done, if you're doing it yourself. Unless you want to go for a less-reliable Chinese movement.

But, again, as I've also said, many times, I suspect most people who own affordable watches aren't going to have them serviced, or replace the movement, every 5-7 years, and as such, it makes even less sense to buy one with a 5-7 year service interval.

Please don't mischaracterize or misunderstand the point I've been making. It's about which movement makes more sense in an affordable watch, the one which costs less to buy and own, and performs better, or the one that costs more to buy and own, and performs worse.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> What if that $200 movement is in a $1500 watch?
> 
> P.S.
> I have real difficulty squaring the two persistent WUS "facts", i.e. 1) "Watch movements are too cheap to service" vs. 2) "automatic watch movements give the watch a soul, and everything non-mechanical is worthless".
> ...


Personally I never saw things in that binary way. I prefer mechanical movements over quartz for a variety of reasons, none of them having to do with a "soul".

As for the question about the cost of the movement vs the price of the watch - among the points I've tried to make within these discussions is that, the more the watch costs, the more sense it likely makes to have it serviced (or replace the movement), as the cost of maintenance is a smaller percentage of the purchase cost. Conversely, the less the watch costs, the more likely the watch's owner is to live in denial about its service needs.

It's like, if you own a $500,000 house, replacing the roof for $25,000 makes sense, if it protects your $500,000 investment. But if your house is only worth $100,000, you're more likely to struggle to rationalize the $25,000 roof, and may put it off longer, or seek out a cheaper alternative.

The fact that you're not getting water coming through your ceiling doesn't mean the roof isn't past its replacement date, just like the fact that you haven't spun off the road doesn't mean your bald tires don't need to be replaced, just like the fact that your watch seemingly "runs fine" doesn't mean it isn't due for a service.

But, that's just me, being logical. Logic doesn't always work on the internet.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Avo said:


> Please stop. This is absurd. My 9 year old Christopher Ward (with an ETA 2824) is running just fine. I'm sure MANY here have much older watches that are running just fine. My brother-in-law, who used to own a pawn shop, routinely bought decades old, never serviced Swiss watches that ran just fine.
> 
> The notion that every Swiss movement is going to definitely (your word) require an expensive service in less than 7 years is completely unsupported by actual experience.
> 
> And there are plenty of options for replacing a 2824. A Seagull ST2130 clone sells for $50 on ebay.


I agree with all you said here.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> Been thinking about my old Odin... might be time.
> 
> View attachment 15015501


There's a mint blue no-date on ebay for $500. Not mine, just letting you know.



Avo said:


> Please stop. This is absurd. My 9 year old Christopher Ward (with an ETA 2824) is running just fine. I'm sure MANY here have much older watches that are running just fine. My brother-in-law, who used to own a pawn shop, routinely bought decades old, never serviced Swiss watches that ran just fine.
> 
> The notion that every Swiss movement is going to definitely (your word) require an expensive service in less than 7 years is completely unsupported by actual experience.
> 
> And there are plenty of options for replacing a 2824. A Seagull ST2130 clone sells for $50 on ebay.


Al from Archer watch repair has posted numerous macro shots on WUS showing dried up crusty lube and damaged gears in watches that were apparently running "fine", until they didn't. Sometimes they were 5 years old, sometimes they were 15 years old. And once in a while it's something that was recently "serviced" incorrectly by someone else (like putting new lube on jewels without cleaning out the old gunk). Every movement definitely requires regular service. I think we agree that we just don't want to bother worrying about it.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

92gli said:


> Al from Archer watch repair has posted numerous macro shots on WUS showing dried up crusty lube and damaged gears in watches that were apparently running "fine", until they didn't. Sometimes they were 5 years old, sometimes they were 15 years old. And once in a while it's something that was recently "serviced" incorrectly by someone else (like putting new lube on jewels without cleaning out the old gunk). Every movement definitely requires regular service. I think we agree that we just don't want to bother worrying about it.


Where? Sounds interesting, would like to take a look.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Ive gotten all my top grade eta movements from a dealer in Dubai. They run on average $130 USD plus a shipping fee of $14. He advertises on the beay.

Point being i have always kept a few extra on hand for swapping out in case i found a movement really starting to decline based on amplitude indicating its suffering high internal resistance to the spring tension which is usually an indication of a need for cleaning and lubrication.

In goes the spare and i leisurely tear down, clean, rebuild and lube the old one if i have the spare time. Otherwise i wait till i have a couple or more and pack them up to have a watch smith do them as a package deal for a couple hundred since they aren’t in watches and easier to regulate.

Now that Swatch is looking to curtail supply to outside dealers, this may dry up. So i wait to see.


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

WFH WOTD. Yes, that's a 3DS on my desk. It's really slow...

View attachment 15016501


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Where? Sounds interesting, would like to take a look.


User name "Archer".
You may have to dig a bit. I don't think he's started a thread in a few years but he comments on a lot of things.

His blog, hasn't been updated in a while - https://archerwatches.wordpress.com/


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

92gli said:


> There's a mint blue no-date on ebay for $500. Not mine, just letting you know.
> 
> Al from Archer watch repair has posted numerous macro shots on WUS showing dried up crusty lube and damaged gears in watches that were apparently running "fine", until they didn't. Sometimes they were 5 years old, sometimes they were 15 years old. And once in a while it's something that was recently "serviced" incorrectly by someone else (like putting new lube on jewels without cleaning out the old gunk). Every movement definitely requires regular service. I think we agree that we just don't want to bother worrying about it.





92gli said:


> User name "Archer".
> You may have to dig a bit. I don't think he's started a thread in a few years but he comments on a lot of things.
> 
> His blog, hasn't been updated in a while - https://archerwatches.wordpress.com/


Thanks for the Odin tip! Loved my Odin, but am hunting another...

Archer is active on the Omega Forums, fwiw. |>


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Oldie but a goodie...Orthos ii mod








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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> You just repeated the exact point I've been making.
> 
> As I've said, many times, it makes more sense to replace the movement, than service it, if replacing it is cheaper than servicing it.
> 
> ...


You do know I don't read your WoTs, right? Do I need to put that in my signature?

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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Nobody in Amsterdam but me. And if this posts sideways I'll fix it when I get back.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

92gli said:


> Al from Archer watch repair has posted numerous macro shots on WUS showing dried up crusty lube and damaged gears in watches that were apparently running "fine", until they didn't. Sometimes they were 5 years old, *sometimes they were 15 years old*.


Exactly. Swiss movements can and very often do run long past 7 years (after which doc claims they "definitely" all need service or replacement).


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Take 2 on the photo that didn't work earlier.









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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

SteamJ said:


> Take 2 on the photo that didn't work earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A little right handed desk diving.

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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Looks better on the Devil Ray








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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

No more arguing over service intervals. More watch pics.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Say a person wanted to avoid Swiss movements for whatever reason. What options are there for higher end watches with Miyota movements?
> 
> Are auto Grand Seikos expected to have service needs similar to ETA?
> 
> ...


For Miyota, not that much. Most of Citizen's upper-end JDM models are still radio-controlled solar quartz. They do make the Caliber 9012, 9040, and 9100 for their Signature automatics. I'm not sure to what extent those are "better" than the 9015, other than out of the box finishing. The Signature models also tend to run quite large in terms of case size, and are kind of weird looking. I'm not really a fan.

Campanola automatic movements aren't Japanese - they're made for Citizen by La Joux-Perret in Switzerland, so Campanola doesn't really compete with Grand Seiko in that way. There are at least a few Royal Orient movements, but I don't know anything about them. I don't think Royal Orient even exists anymore as a brand.

I'd expect the Grand Seiko 4Hz and 5Hz movements to have the same service requirements as the 8L35 and 8L55 in the TOTL Seiko divers, 5-7 years or so. Spring Drives as far as I know need substantially more service than regular GS automatics. I think most watchmakers could probably handle a Marinemaster assuming they can get parts, but you can't just give your Spring Drive snowflake to the local watch repair shop. Until relatively recently they had to go back to Japan, I think as often as every 3 years. Now I believe GS has a service center in the USA.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> You do know I don't read your WoTs, right? Do I need to put that in my signature?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe just add it as a disclaimer in any and all posts which are directed at me.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Service is a funny thing -- I used to work as a bicycle mechanic and there was a wide variety of responses to routine maintenance. You'd have people coming in with their bikes working "just fine" for a tune up because, their "shifting was a bit off." OK, do you know how many miles you have on the drivetrain -- chain and cassette? "Oh, like 8k mi, but they are fine." So you adjust as best you can on worn parts and they come back saying you didn't make the shifting any better. "You need new chain and cassette -- they are way past wear limits." Skeptically, "I dunno..." WTF, dude, you bought a high end bike with tight tolerances, and good for you, you actually ride it -- yes, you will need to drop $300 on drivetrain parts every other year. Get over it, I am not trying to rip you off, I'm trying to fix your bike.

Some people are happy just to have competent service. Others think you ripping them off. *shrug* People will complain about the cost of regular service and replacement wear parts, but man, they are even more unhappy when it comes to bad news as a result of deferred maintenance...

I have a great auto mechanic. If he says something needs doing, I pay to have him do it, unless it's something I can do myself, and then I do it. I wash my car, including undercarriage on the way to dropping it off for service. I clean up the interior. I turn off the radio and climate control. If I was sending a watch in for service, I would clean it pretty fastidiously before dropping it off. 

Then you get into people complaining about the cost of service. But also, "You can't find any good mechanics, anymore." One or the other -- you can have desultory service at bargain prices, or you can pay to have someone who knows what they are doing do the service. You know why you can't find decent bike mechanics? Because you don't want to actually pay them what they are worth.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> 92gli said:
> 
> 
> > Al from Archer watch repair has posted numerous macro shots on WUS showing *dried up crusty lube and damaged gears in watches that were apparently running "fine", until they didn't.* Sometimes they were 5 years old, sometimes they were 15 years old. And once in a while it's something that was recently "serviced" incorrectly by someone else (like putting new lube on jewels without cleaning out the old gunk). Every movement definitely requires regular service. I think we agree that we just don't want to bother worrying about it.
> ...


Yeah...you bold-faced the wrong part of that quote, but don't worry, I got you, fam.

Maybe you're not picking up what I'm putting down.

The watchmakers I've spoken to have all been fairly consistent - a Swiss movement should (or if you prefer, needs to) be serviced about every 5-7 years, depending on wear habits, because past 7 years, the lubrication isn't good enough to keep them running without leading to damage to the internal parts of the movement.

You *CAN* run them longer than that, of course, but that doesn't mean you *SHOULD*. Do you understand the concept of running a machine past the point when it *NEEDED* maintenance?

Just like your car isn't going to stop dead if you don't change the oil when you should. It'll keep running, but the longer you go, the more damage you're doing to your engine. Likewise, your watch isn't going to stop dead after 7 years. It'll keep running, and may even keep time, but you'll see decreased performance eventually, and you're doing additional damage to the parts by skimping on recommended maintenance.

Saying the movement needs to be serviced no less frequently than every 7 years is *NOT* the same as saying it won't run, or even run well enough, beyond that point. The two statements aren't mutually exclusive. I never said they would stop running after 7 years, I said they need maintenance no less frequently than that, because beyond that point, you're likely causing damage, even if you don't realize it.

According to every watchmaker I've spoken to, including the founder of a watchmaking school with decades of experience, and a WOSTEP certified, past-president of a watchmaker's association, you shouldn't believe that the watch doesn't need maintenance, simply because it still appears to be running well enough and keeping good time.

My car runs fine. It also "needs" maintenance. It "needs" new catalytic converters. It'll run without them, but it needs them. It'll also run without replacing the engine mounts. But, eventually, if and when those engine mounts completely rot away, no, it won't run fine, and I will definitely not be able to drive it until they get replaced. I will definitely "need" to replace them, at that point.

Are we all clear on the meaning of "needs maintenance"?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Are we all clear on the meaning of "needs maintenance"?


Your claim was that I should buy 9015's, because I can run them for decades until they die and then replace them, but that I cannot do that with 2824's, because they "need maintenance".

This makes no sense to me.

What do your WOSTEP trained watchmakers tell you about the 9015? That it does *not* need maintenance every 5 to 7 years? How do they know? The 9015 has barely existed for a decade, and my guess is that the WOSTEP dudes don't see too many of them in their shops (because who sends in a 9015 for an expensive service???).

So, as far as I can tell, there is ZERO objective evidence that an unserviced 9015 will last substantially longer than an unserviced 2824.

And if I'm willing to go with Seagull, replacing a 2824 is substantially CHEAPER than replacing a 9015.

But none of this actually matters to me. I buy watches based on design and non-movement-related features. Then the watch comes with whatever movement it comes with. The only movement-related feature I care about is beat rate: I no longer buy center-second watches that beat below 4Hz. Personal preference.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Got bored. Switched watches. Then remembered y'all were talkin about Glycines yesterday.








Btw, Doc, glad to see the back and forth between you and every random comer still going strong. You've got an uncanny knack for getting under the soft skinned ones.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Your claim was that I should buy 9015's, because I can run them for decades until they die and then replace them, but that I cannot do that with 2824's, because they "need maintenance".
> 
> This makes no sense to me.
> 
> ...


*****. This is what I remember about you. You're among the great kings of misquoting. You do this, frequently.

I never said *YOU* should buy a 9015. I said everyone should buy whatever they want. I don't give a crap what people buy.

I have said I expect Japanese mechanical movements to run well (or, if you prefer, well enough) for decades, without maintenance, just like you've said you can run your Swiss movement for a decade or more, without maintenance.

Do I *believe* the Japanese movements are likely going to be running better, and longer, with no maintenance? Yes, I do, based on all the anecdotal evidence, *BUT*, that wasn't what I said.

What I said was, since the Japanese movements are so cheap to replace, it doesn't make sense to service one. It makes sense to let it run until it dies, or the performance becomes unacceptable, then just drop in a new replacement, assuming you can get one. My expectation is that a 9015 will run well for at least a decade, if not decades, plural, with no dramatic decrease in performance.

I've also said that about entry level Swiss movements, essentially. I've said they're probably going to be cheaper to replace than to service, so you might as well NOT service them, and instead, replace the movement when you see the performance drop off to an unacceptable degree.

If and when you need to replace one, the 9015 is likely to be cheaper to replace than the Swiss movement.

But, have you seen all the chatter about the "hand-winding issues" with the ETA and its clones? You probably have. Do you know I've asked every watchmaker I've ever spoken to about it, and not one has ever agreed that there's any such issue with the 2824? The consensus is that the "hand-winding issues" are in fact "deferred maintenance issues".

Think about that - all the people out there who believe there's an inherent flaw in the design of that movement, are really people talking about the entirely predictable effects of deferred maintenance. Is it reasonable for me, or anyone else, to think and believe that the effects of deferred maintenance may be more widespread, rather than isolated within that one area?

Every watchmaker I've ever spoken to, I ask the same 4-6 questions. What do you expect the defect rate is on the entry-level Swiss movements? How often should they be serviced? How much do you charge for a service? How long does it take you to do that service? For the most part, I get all the same answers, within a pretty tight range.

They all say the lubricants dry up by year 7, and beyond that, you're doing damage by running the watch. Year 7 is when you're going to see the amplitude falling, for exactly the reason Rhory said - the lack of lubrication has increased the resistance from the internal parts working against each other. Lower amplitude generally means lower performance.

I've never bothered to ask them about the 9015, because why would I? They never get asked to work on them, because why would they?

But, my in-house watchmaker, Dan, has worked on them, extensively. He's shown me macro shots which reveal how much better-finished the 9015's parts are, and explained how much more elegant the 9015's design is, and how much more robust it is. We've tested them, extensively, and compared the results to Swiss movements, which we've also tested, extensively.

We know that the 2824-2 has been around for, what, 50 years? Its service interval is well-established. What more objective evidence do you need, in addition to 50 years of watchmakers saying it ought to be serviced every 7 years?

We know that the 9015 has been around for 10 years. Speaking only for myself, I haven't seen large crowds of people complaining about their 10-year-old 9015's crapping out on them. I have seen thousands of 20, 30, 40, and even 50 year old Seikos and Citizens being sold on eBay, still running, and keeping pretty good time, despite never being cracked open and lubricated. Call me crazy, but I view that as a positive sign for the 9015.

I'm sorry that I don't have a time machine, and can't zip into 2040, to grab a 9015 from 2010, bring it back here, and show you how it's still got strong amplitude, and is running well within spec. The best I can do is point to the mountain of anecdotal and empirical evidence available, and try to frame it for you in the most logical way I can.

You want to run a Swiss movement with no maintenance, for as long as it will go, and then drop in a replacement? Awesome. Do that. Be my guest. Let me know how long it runs before it $hlts the bed on you. I would bet my business (and, essentially, that's what I've done) that the typical 9015 will outlast the typical ETA/Selitta/STP whatever, if we run them all without maintenance.

I've said *I* prefer the 9015, because it costs less to buy (fact, it does), performs better (by every objective measure, it does), is thinner (it is), and is likely to run longer without maintenance (notice I used the qualifier, "likely"), and will be cheaper to replace than the Swiss movements are to replace or service (as of today, that's a fact, the 9015 is).

What part of all that doesn't make sense?


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## mythless (Feb 21, 2016)

I always find these posts on servicing intervals funny to read. Doc, as you said before people can do whatever they want with their movement, service them or not. I don't see why people have to argue about it. And, from a monetary view point, your points are valid on the Miyota 9015, people can agree to disagree if they wish. 

Your watch maker isn't the only one that recommends the 5-7 year on Swiss movements rule either. Mine is the same as per Swiss recommendation. Heck, if people really want they can service the Miyota 9015 every 5-7 years too! No one is going to stop them. I hate to use the over used car analogy, which someone may have used, oil changes. You can follow the recommended service interval or not. 

Want to prevent potential wear and tear on your lovely mechanical watches (or at least keep it minimal)? Service or replace the movement...


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

God bless you. I don't have the energy to keep up the discussion....


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

lovin it

edit: Especially the new bracelet!


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> View attachment 15017135
> 
> 
> Nobody in Amsterdam but me. And if this posts sideways I'll fix it when I get back.


I'm patiently waiting for the next installment of "Storytime with Snot".


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> As far as I know, neither Seiko nor Miyota wholesale any mechanical movements which are "higher end" than the 9015 or 6r15, at least for now. If you wanted something better, from either, you'd have to by a Seiko or Citizen, or something from one of their upper-end brands, like Grand Seiko, Credor, and Campanola.
> 
> I honestly have no idea what the service requirements are with Grand Seikos. I feel like I'm supposed to be very interested in the wiz-bang innovation of Grand Seiko, Spring Drive, etc, but the truth is, I'm just not all that enamored with much beyond the part of the industry I dwell within.


Thanks. But please allow me to reframe my question. Not interested in a snazzier movement. Was wondering what other nice watches can be had with a 9015 movement inside.

My NTH Subs are great. So is my one Christopher Ward. I'd consider getting another CW. Like maybe ONE more. And I'd have no choice but a Swiss movement. (Good, bad, or indifferent - not making any arguments there.)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Thanks. But please allow me to reframe my question. Not interested in a snazzier movement. Was wondering what other nice watches can be had with a 9015 movement inside.
> 
> My NTH Subs are great. So is my one Christopher Ward. I'd consider getting another CW. Like maybe ONE more. And I'd have no choice but a Swiss movement. (Good, bad, or indifferent - not making any arguments there.)


Oh. In that case, there are countless microbrands using the 9015, plus some Citizen models. The Citizen Signature Series are the first ones to come to mind.

Speaking selfishly, for my business, I like seeing other brands using Swiss movements. It makes it easier for me to get Miyotas, and helps to keep the Miyota's cost down.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Call me crazy, but I'd rather take my chances on a movement that is likely to run for decades, but can be replaced for $99 if need be, then take a chance with a movement that will definitely require a $175 replacement to a $300 or more service every 5-7 years. On what planet is that not a substantial difference?





docvail said:


> Are we all clear on the meaning of "needs maintenance"?





Avo said:


> Your claim was that I should buy 9015's, because I can run them for decades until they die and then replace them, but that I cannot do that with 2824's, because they "need maintenance".





docvail said:


> *****. This is what I remember about you. You're among the great kings of misquoting. You do this, frequently.


:roll:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> :roll:


Don't blame me for your lack of reading comprehension.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Perhaps look up the meaning of the word "likely", and brush up on the difference between "I" and "you", to start.

Once you've mastered those, we can move onto the nuances of more complex concepts like "need", and work on your math skills.

Eventually we'll work our way up to "greater than/less than", and finally, if we have time, higher order logic, required to draw valid conclusions from incomplete data.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Avo said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Pandemic home schooling... it’s not just for kids! After all of that, can you cover imaginary numbers? That silliness never made sense to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Wow, I just discovered that this thing existed. Apparently Citizen made themselves a tourbillon, with an in-house movement, and their name on the dial. Yours for a cool $90K.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Thanks. But please allow me to reframe my question. Not interested in a snazzier movement. Was wondering what other nice watches can be had with a 9015 movement inside.
> 
> My NTH Subs are great. So is my one Christopher Ward. I'd consider getting another CW. Like maybe ONE more. And I'd have no choice but a Swiss movement. (Good, bad, or indifferent - not making any arguments there.)


Ah, didn't realize that's what you were asking. Some of the nicest watches made using the 9015 are from Laco.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Ah, didn't realize that's what you were asking. Some of the nicest watches made using the 9015 are from Laco.
> 
> View attachment 15018025


"Made in Germany"

There's a can of worms no one wants to open...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

How's this different than arguing when to change the oil in your car?

Your engine can run fine till it doesn't too....


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> They all say the lubricants dry up by year 7, and beyond that, you're doing damage by running the watch. Year 7 is when you're going to see the amplitude falling, for exactly the reason Rhory said - the lack of lubrication has increased the resistance from the internal parts working against each other. Lower amplitude generally means lower performance.
> 
> I've never bothered to ask them about the 9015, because why would I? They never get asked to work on them, because why would they?
> 
> But, my in-house watchmaker, Dan, has worked on them, extensively. He's shown me macro shots which reveal how much better-finished the 9015's parts are, and explained how much more elegant the 9015's design is, and how much more robust it is. We've tested them, extensively, and compared the results to Swiss movements, which we've also tested, extensively.


Hey, Doc.

Big fan of your watch designs. I've got an L&H Phantom, Orthos Commander, and even a few of your NTH brand watches (3 subs and an Antilles). My issue with you is you constantly put out great looking watches which tempts me to buy more! 

I have to ask after stumbling onto this thread though, what specifically makes the 9015 more robust than the 2824? You said that you've spoken to your in-house watchmaker about it who has explained it to you, and I was wondering if you could pass on his explanation. Is there something about them that allow them to function more reliably compared to a 2824 when the oils start to dry up?

I appreciate your communication with the watch community at large as well! I think it's great that you have a business that is so directly connected to your buyers.

Thank you and take care!

Mike


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

mgp123 said:


> Hey, Doc.
> 
> Big fan of your watch designs. I've got an L&H Phantom, Orthos Commander, and even a few of your NTH brand watches (3 subs and an Antilles). My issue with you is you constantly put out great looking watches which tempts me to buy more!
> 
> ...


It is safe to handwind a 9015, while it is decidedly Not a good idea to aggressively handwind 2824 very often, except to just get it ticking before strapping it on to let the rotor do the rest of the wind.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> What if that $200 movement is in a $1500 watch?
> 
> P.S.
> I have real difficulty squaring the two persistent WUS "facts", i.e. 1) "Watch movements are too cheap to service" vs. 2) "automatic watch movements give the watch a soul, and everything non-mechanical is worthless".
> ...


I don't see what the issue is. I think Seiko 5s are extremely cool little watches, particularly if you start modding them and making a one-of-a-kind. Who'd ever mod a quartz watch? Why even bother? It's just a quartz watch. Quartz watches are appliances. How many Seiko solar models have you seen dressed up to look like Planet Oceans or Black Bays? How about the SKX or the SNZH? I have less than zero interest in Longines VHPs, or even GS quartz models. You'd have to be absolutely bonkers to ever service a Seiko 5. That doesn't make them any less cool. All mechanical watches are cool, even the lowliest ones with $40 movements.

I have a $750+ (after all the mod work) SKX with a $40 7S26 in it. It can't even hack or handwind. I'll just wear it until the movement dies, and then put an NH35 in there. The particular 7S26 that's in my particular SKX doesn't hold any sort of emotional weight with me. It's the fact that it's a mechanical time piece, that's part of a history of watchmaking that goes back hundreds of years. That's what makes it interesting.

Look at this thing. It's an SKX013 with a Monster dial, Hublot style bezel, and for some reason a Milgauss second hand. Not something I'd ever make for myself, but I like how weird and quirky it is. Mechanical watches inspire this sort of creativity. Quartz watches do not.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> I'm patiently waiting for the next installment of "Storytime with Snot".





3WR said:


> Mr. dmjonez, if I may ask, what type of airline do you fly for? If passenger, I was wondering if people are still traveling by air. And if people are now able to / forced to have entire rows to themselves. Thanks. Be careful.


Story time! I figured it might be a good place to have an intermission from watch servicing debates. 
I have been off for most of the last month because of the draw down in air travel, but tied to that, my annual check ride was due. And so I along with another captain flew a trip to Amsterdam with a check airman who gave the first guy his check ride on the way over and I am getting mine on the way back today.
Only European passport holders were allowed to board the flight over. I expect that most of the passengers were trying to get home to European destinations. No Americans were allowed to board other than the crew. Even with that restriction, the flight was full. There are a lot of people stuck away from home I expect.
Our crews normally fill most of two very nice hotels in Amsterdam. We are now only staying in one of them, and the only people staying there are our crews.
I would guess that about 95% of the restaurants are closed, and only a few have takeout available. There are a lot of small groceries still open. Our hotel has very good room service meals, and that's how we all ate. They did allow us to come down and sit in the lobby, as long as we were in groups smaller than three persons.
Social distancing is rigorously enforced, but there are still a few people out and about, probably going to the grocery store, the doctor or something else like that. Overall, the streets are very very quiet.
Since we came over, my airline has changed their policy, and now only allow people to sit in every other seat, so all the center seats are blocked.
Not much else to report. The world is closed for business.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mgp123 said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > They all say the lubricants dry up by year 7, and beyond that, you're doing damage by running the watch. Year 7 is when you're going to see the amplitude falling, for exactly the reason Rhory said - the lack of lubrication has increased the resistance from the internal parts working against each other. Lower amplitude generally means lower performance.
> ...


Check out WoT post #282, paragraph 13.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> According to every watchmaker I've spoken to, including the founder of a watchmaking school with decades of experience, and a WOSTEP certified, past-president of a watchmaker's association, you shouldn't believe that the watch doesn't need maintenance, simply because it still appears to be running well enough and keeping good time.


Woah there -- you mean people who make money servicing watches are saying to service watches, even if they appear to be running fine? Well duh, obviously a conspiracy among the watchmaking cartel to fleece watch owners for all they're worth.

I mean, it's either that or they are trained professionals who know what they are doing, suggesting regular maintenance in order to keep your watch running correctly over the long run, and actually save money vs. movement repair or replacement.

Among certain WIS, I don't think service is even a thought -- they are not going to own a watch long enough to be concerned about service. Another segment who keep watches forever won't wear them or use them frequently enough to worry about it. General public who don't know any better will run a watch into the ground, without service, ignorant that they even require such.

On my end, with used watches, I figure the cost of a service into an offer, unless the PO has a receipt for recent service. There was one watch I was considering, 10yrs old, "barely worn, maybe two dozen days in 10 years," and the price of the watch plus service would have been more than a new watch. I made an offier -- their asking price less the cost of a service, and the reply was that it did not need service as it had seen so little use. *shrug*, pass.

I actually don't have a watch with a Swiss movement, at the moment, and I got into modding watches, so for pretty much any/all watches I currently own, probably I will be swapping or upgrading movements, when the time comes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> Hey, Doc.
> 
> Big fan of your watch designs. I've got an L&H Phantom, Orthos Commander, and even a few of your NTH brand watches (3 subs and an Antilles). My issue with you is you constantly put out great looking watches which tempts me to buy more!
> 
> ...


Hey Mike,

Thanks for your business. I love hearing that people enjoy my team's work product. Don't let your enjoyment of this semi-expensive hobby lead to problems in your personal life.

I've written a lot about the 9015 vs the 2824-2 clones. I should probably post an entry to my website's blog, so I can just link to it when this question comes up. "Robust" is a vague term, which I should avoid when discussing movements, just as I should endeavor to differentiate my opinions and conclusions, which I can't prove, from the facts, which I can.

Rather than delve into the subjective, I'll try to keep this comparison objective. Below is a point-by-point comparison of the choices. But bear in mind that this is how *I* compare them, using factors which *I* deem relevant and meaningful.

*1. Beat rate - they're both 28.8k bph. *

Fact.

All other things being equal, I prefer a higher beat rate, and I think others do, too.

*2. Power reserve - the 2824-2's is 38 hours. The 9015's is 42+. *

Facts.

The added 4+ hours isn't very important (at least not to me) in and of itself, but it plays into the accuracy of the movement. Generally, accuracy starts to decline as the power is depleted, especially in the second half of the power reserve, due to isochronism.

So, all other things being equal, a watch with a longer power reserve ought to be running more accurately for a longer period of time.

Additionally, how much the accuracy changes over the first 24 hours matters (fact).

Our observation (anecdotal evidence) is that the 9015 is much less affected by isochronism than the 2824-2 or its clones are. So, over a 24 hour period, we expect the 9015 to be more consistent, both because of the longer PR, and also because it seems to be very resistant to the effects of isochronism.

*3. Adjustment - the standard 2824-2 is adjusted to 2, out of 6 positions. The elabore grade is adjusted to 3. The top grade is adjusted to 5. The Miyota is adjusted to 4 positions. *

Facts.

This is very important, and largely overlooked, when people discuss the accuracy specs, as if the daily rate spec is the only number that matters.

The daily rate spec is +/-12 with +/- 30 seconds per day of posture difference for the standard ETA, and -10 to +30 with +/- 40 seconds posture difference for the Miyota (facts).

But those numbers do NOT mean that's what your on-the-wrist/off-the-wrist accuracy will be over 24 hours, i.e., you can't necessarily expect your ETA to be +/- 12 secs per day, nor should you assume your 9015 won't run better than -10 to +30. Your experience could be very different, with either.

That +/-12 secs/day range (or the -10 to +30) is just the *average* of the acceptable range for the positions the movement is adjusted in (fact), when measured at full power (fact).

Our observation (anecdotal experience) is that the Miyota's numbers are extremely conservative, and the vast majority run *much* better than that when we receive them.

The allowable posture difference means that the rate in each of the adjusted positions can be different by that amount, i.e., +/- 30 seconds difference between the ETA's 2 positions, and +/- 40 seconds between the 9015's four positions (facts).

The more positions a movement is adjusted in, the more predictable its performance is going to be, and the less positional variance we'd expect to see, because that daily rate range is an average of all the adjusted positions, and the posture difference range constricts the total range among those positions (facts).

More adjusted positions is better (mathematical fact). The top grade ETA is adjusted to one more position than the 9015, but it also costs 2.5x as much (facts).

The accuracy you see over 24 hours is going to be more like the average of all 6 positions, weighted towards whichever positions the watch spends most of its time in, and dependent upon how much energy it has, which is a function of the power reserve, and efficiency of the autowinding.

But, the fewer the positions the movement was adjusted in, the more likely you are to see performance that is wildly different than the manufacturer's stated spec, meaning, it's less predictable. A watch adjusted to 2 out of 6 positions might spend a lot of its time in one of the other 4, non-adjusted positions, where the accuracy could be wildly different.

You might get better or worse performance, depending on luck, and whether or not the brand which made the watch did any further adjusting or regulation.

*4. Movement thickness - the 9015 is thinner, by a good bit.*

Fact.

All other things being equal, I prefer a thinner movement, because it lets us design a thinner watch.

*5. Auto-winding efficiency.*

It's generally accepted that a uni-directional winder can be thinner, and endures less wear-and-tear than bi-directional winders.

Many people believe that bi-directional winding is more efficient than the Miyota's uni-directional winding. I disagree. There's more to auto-winding efficiency than whether the movement is a bi-directional or uni-directional winder. The gear ratios play a part, as does the ease with which the rotor spins.

Our anecdotal experience actually suggests the opposite. We've found that the 9015 is a very efficient auto-winder, more efficient than the bi-directional winders.

Many people have noted the 9015's rotor "wobble", and the noise it makes when free-spinning in the non-winding direction. Those are both a result of the ease with which the 9015's rotor spins. That free-spinning ease seems to help the 9015's auto-winding efficiency. It must, because the gear ratios are pretty "tall", meaning, they're not helping (fact).

*6. Positional variance.*

Directly related to positional adjustment, and has a big impact on real-world, on-the-wrist/off-the-wrist accuracy.

Much like the manufacturer's spec for daily average rate is a "worst-case scenario" set of numbers, which sets a range for acceptable performance, the posture difference numbers (+/- 30 secs for the ETA, +/- 40 for the 9015) also constrict the acceptable performance range.

But, again, real-world performance can be and often is very different. Those are worst-case scenario numbers, not the best you can expect. Since the 9015 is adjusted to more positions, we can expect it to be more stable across more positions, resulting in greater real-world accuracy.

And, as it happens, when we've tested a sampling of 9015's, we've found that they were amazingly stable across multiple positions, virtually impervious to posture changes.

*7. Cost to purchase - the 9015 costs less.*

Fact.

The more I pay for movements, the more you pay for the watch. All other things being equal, we all want to pay less, right? Cost isn't the only consideration, obviously, but it's a big one.

Regardless of how long the movement lasts before it needs to be serviced or replaced, if it makes more sense to replace the movement, because a replacement is going to be cheaper than a service, a movement which costs less to purchase is going to lower your long-term maintenance costs, right?

I mean, that would seem obvious to me, but the last few days of debate and argle-bargle makes me question what's obvious to everyone.

*8. Defect rate.*

I've asked every watchmaker I've ever spoken to what they expect the defect rate with the 2824-2 to be. The range I've been given goes from virtually 0 to as high as 5%-6%, but most of the numbers I've heard are clustered at the upper end of that range. In fact, the founder of a watchmaking school told me that ETA actually put that into their technical docs at one point, and the WOSTEP guy says his observation (anecdotal experience) is that the rate is even higher with Selittas.

We've produced over 4,000 watches with the 9015. We generally replace fewer than 1 in 1,000. There was one batch of 500 with a defect rate of 3%, in 2016. Including that apparent anomaly, our defect rate (empirical evidence) is 0.43%, or, about 1/10th of what we'd expect with ETAs, maybe even less than 1/10th.

Should it matter to customers what our defect rate is, if our warranty covers bad movements? I don't know. I think having to send a watch back because your movement turned out to be a dud is kind of a pain, so I like to minimize the risk that my customers will have to endure that experience.

*9. Quality of finishing.*

My watchmaker has shown me high-magnification photos, showing the difference in finishing quality of parts from the 9015, the Seiko NH35, and the ETA 2824-2. The 9015's parts had the best finishing, in his opinion.

It's generally understood that the better the finishing on the parts, the better the watch will perform, and the longer.

*10. Hand-winding issues.*

Many people, including knowledgeable ones, say you shouldn't hand-wind the ETA "too much" (whatever that means), and instead, rely more upon the auto-winding, since, it's an automatic movement, and that's how it's meant to be used. Some will add that by hand-winding the movement a lot, you're possibly damaging it, suggesting there's some inherent weakness in the auto-winding mechanism.

I've said this before, I'll say it again - every watchmaker I've asked about this dismisses the idea of any weakness there. They all suggest the reports of broken parts in that part of the movement are the result of deferred maintenance.

I'll add to that - it doesn't make a lot of logical sense to me, that after decades of producing reliable hand-wind-only movements, any manufacturer would somehow manage to make an auto-winder with an inherent weakness in the hand-winding mechanism. Again, take this with a grain of salt, because I'm not a watchmaker, and it's entirely possible there's some key difference there, which makes the hand-winding mechanism in the autos more "fragile" than the mechanism in the hand-winders.

That said, after being around for 10 years, the 9015 doesn't appear to be giving anyone hand-winding problems. I've had some 9015's for 6 years, hand-wind the hell out of them, frequently, and haven't had any problems (anecdotal experience). Maybe we'll start hearing about them any day now. I wouldn't bet on it, but, anything is possible.

*11. Manufacturer behavior.*

I view Swatch Group as a bad actor. I won't rehash the entire history starting from the quartz crisis, but suffice to say they're exercising the full power of their monopoly, to include cutting off the independent service network (fact), and many independent brands (fact). It appears to me that they're working a long term plan to drive the cost of movements upward, especially Swiss movements, particularly their own movements.

Many people claim that the ETA and its clones will be serviceable and/or replaceable forever. I'm not convinced. If they cut off the independent service network, they'll be the only ones capable of servicing or replacing your movement (and I've read that when you send your watch into them, they just install a refurbished movement from some other watch).

If the only choice, at some point in the future, may be to send your watch back to Swatch Group, what would that mean for non-Swatch Group brands?

That's not to say Miyota is a paragon of virtue, or that you're guaranteed to get a new movement in 10 or 20 years, if you need one. The big Japanese manufacturers are all a black box. They don't deign to deal directly with brand owners like me, or even an OEM like mine. They only sell through a few wholesalers, who sell to the OEMs and the parts suppliers, who sell to me (in the case of the OEMs) or to you (in the case of the parts suppliers).

It's anybody's guess when Miyota will stop producing the 9015, and whether or not whatever calibre replaces it will be a dimensional clone, and thus a drop-in replacement. Not that Miyota would necessarily behave the same as Seiko, but, I think it's somewhat reasonable to think that if the Seiko NH35 is a dimensional clone of the NH25 it replaced, perhaps whatever replaces the 9015 will also be a dimensional clone. That would make sense, strategically, for Miyota's business.

---

I'm probably forgetting something, but, that's probably enough to make my point.

When I look at all of this, and think about the long-term experience of my customers, and the support requests my business might expect to receive, I have to consider which movements are going to give my customers the fewest problems, for the longest length of time, and require less support from my business.

Yes, it's my *opinion* that the 9015 makes more sense, for my own collection, for my business, and for my customers, for all of the above reasons. All of those reasons are either documented, verifiable facts, or very logical, reasonable conclusions, drawn from a large amount of combined anecdotal experience, and all of the available information.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Woah there -- you mean people who make money servicing watches are saying to service watches, even if they appear to be running fine? Well duh, obviously a conspiracy among the watchmaking cartel to fleece watch owners for all they're worth.
> 
> I mean, it's either that or they are trained professionals who know what they are doing, suggesting regular maintenance in order to keep your watch running correctly over the long run, and actually save money vs. movement repair or replacement.
> 
> ...


Watchmaker Dan called me yesterday, to discuss something unrelated, as this debate was raging. Even though I already knew the answer, I went ahead and asked him to explain it all to me again, just to be sure I wasn't imagining all that stuff about lubrication drying up and gears grinding, even as a watch appears to be "running fine".

Dan said there's a motorcycle in his garage that's barely been ridden since he put new tires on it, in 2000, twenty years ago. The tires look new. Plenty of tread on them. But after 20 years, they're not safe to ride on.

Sure, he could fire up the bike, and take it out on the road, and if he took it easy, he might be fine. But if he pushed it hard into a corner, he might die.

My son's friend's car crapped out on him about six months ago. My son asked me to go and see if I could help. I checked the oil. There wasn't any. Like, none. Bone dry. He never checked the oil. So, we bought some oil, and put it in.

The engine fired up, but the car wouldn't move forward, only backwards. The transmission was fried. I asked the kid if anyone had ever changed the transmission fluid, since the car was kind of high mileage. He had no idea what I was talking about.

That car drove fine right up until the moment it became an enormous paperweight. A new transmission would cost more than the car was worth.

I don't know how else I can explain this stuff.

I'd rather have a watch with a 9015, that I *believe* will run longer than an ETA or one of its clones (because I believe the Miyota is a better-designed, better-made movement), assuming neither gets any routine maintenance, because I know that worst-case scenario, the 9015 will cost me less to replace, if and when it dies on me.

Spending $100 to replace a 9015 in a $700 watch makes more sense to me than spending $200 to replace an ETA (or Swiss clone) in a similarly-priced watch, no matter when it happens, but especially if the 9015 lasts longer, which, again, I *believe* it will.

The fact that the 9015 is thinner than the ETA and its clones, and all our experience suggests it performs better, are just a bonus.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Dan said there's a motorcycle in his garage that's barely been ridden since he put new tires on it, in 2000, twenty years ago. The tires look new. Plenty of tread on them. But after 20 years, they're not safe to ride on .


LOL. I'm a big bicycle nut. Everyone calls and texts me about bike questions. Everyone is pulling bikes out of the basements and attics lately, for obvious reasons. This was twice in the last week...

Them - Pulling the bike out and dusting it off. Need to find something else to do with the kids.
Me - Get new tires. I'll tell you what to get and put them on for you if you want.
Them - They look fine, no cracks or anything.
Me - When did you buy the bike?
Them - 2002. They're fine. Holding air great
Me - Ok, well, keep it under 2 mph in the turns and wear a full face helmet. Don't want you to have to go to the hospital for the face and hand abrasions when those hard tires slide out from under you. Good luck! :-d


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> LOL. I'm a big bicycle nut. Everyone calls and texts me about bike questions. Everyone is pulling bikes out of the basements and attics lately, for obvious reasons. This was twice in the last week...
> 
> Them - Pulling the bike out and dusting it off. Need to find something else to do with the kids.
> Me - Get new tires. I'll tell you what to get and put them on for you if you want.
> ...


No one likes doing maintenance. I think we've established that.

If that's true, and it seems to be, then buying a machine which would seem to require less frequent maintenance, and/or will be cheaper to replace if and when it eventually dies from a lack of maintenance, would seem to make sense.

But, again, that's just me, talking logic on the innerwebz.


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

92gli said:


> LOL. I'm a big bicycle nut. Everyone calls and texts me about bike questions. Everyone is pulling bikes out of the basements and attics lately, for obvious reasons. This was twice in the last week...
> 
> Them - Pulling the bike out and dusting it off. Need to find something else to do with the kids.
> Me - Get new tires. I'll tell you what to get and put them on for you if you want.
> ...


I pulled out my bike in January since my son rides now and I wanted to get out with him. I had new tires and cables installed and the bike serviced and cleaned. It's a 2002 or 2003 Fuji Thrill (I think 2003) that I bought when I lived in New Jersey and I've been getting out and riding 8-10 miles a day and loving it.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My favorite was always:
Someone drags in a clapped out English 3sp from the 60s or a 70s Schwinn/Raleigh/Pugeot 10sp.

"Hey, I found this in a dumpster and I just want to get it running, how much?"

Figure $200-300.

"What?!? I got it for free, I don't want to spend that kind of money on it!"

Your call, dude... New tires/tubes, cables/housing, grips/tape, clean and lube, 2+ hours labor...

"I could go to WalMart and get a new bike cheaper or find a cheaper used bike on Craigslist!"

Yes, you could, this is a true statement.

There are people in this world who don't value service ans mechanical expertise...

Anyway, here's a watch:


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Story time! I figured it might be a good place to have an intermission from watch servicing debates.
> I have been off for most of the last month because of the draw down in air travel, but tied to that, my annual check ride was due. And so I along with another captain flew a trip to Amsterdam with a check airman who gave the first guy his check ride on the way over and I am getting mine on the way back today.
> Only European passport holders were allowed to board the flight over. I expect that most of the passengers were trying to get home to European destinations. No Americans were allowed to board other than the crew. Even with that restriction, the flight was full. There are a lot of people stuck away from home I expect.
> Our crews normally fill most of two very nice hotels in Amsterdam. We are now only staying in one of them, and the only people staying there are our crews.
> ...


Thank You!
Now for Q & A follow up:
1. Did you pass your check ride?
2. Did you get a better score than the other guy?
3. Check Pilot. Full time job or do they rotate between that and flying regular routes?


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## mythless (Feb 21, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> My favorite was always:
> Someone drags in a clapped out English 3sp from the 60s or a 70s Schwinn/Raleigh/Pugeot 10sp.
> 
> "Hey, I found this in a dumpster and I just want to get it running, how much?"
> ...


I understand this all too well, went through the same process with the GF bike, in the end went to a local store and bought a brand new one.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

will nth sell replacement movements for the 9015 and install them for us?


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Watchmaker Dan called me yesterday, to discuss something unrelated, as this debate was raging. Even though I already knew the answer, I went ahead and asked him to explain it all to me again, just to be sure I wasn't imagining all that stuff about lubrication drying up and gears grinding, even as a watch appears to be "running fine".
> 
> Dan said there's a motorcycle in his garage that's barely been ridden since he put new tires on it, in 2000, twenty years ago. The tires look new. Plenty of tread on them. But after 20 years, they're not safe to ride on.
> 
> ...


Subtext is forget these mechanical ticking* time bombs and buy a cheap disposable quartz watch. Even better get a solar powered quartz and you're good to go for the zombie apocalypse.......

......there ya go Doc, new market for you to plough and marketing strategy thrown in. You're welcome! |>

* - literally b-)


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Hornet99 said:


> Subtext is forget these mechanical ticking* time bombs and buy a cheap disposable quartz watch. Even better get a solar powered quartz and you're good to go for the zombie apocalypse.......
> 
> * - literally b-)


Where's the fun in that?


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> Where's the fun in that?


You want fun? Play it close to the edge by putting your solar watch in a cupboard and seeing how long the charge will last. That'll keep you occupied for months.......


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> You want fun? Play it close to the edge by putting your solar watch in a cupboard and seeing how long the charge will last. That'll keep you occupied for months.......


I wonder if it's like opening the refrigerator quickly to see if you can catch the light coming on. If you open the cupboard, does the light coming in start the watch before you can see if it had been stopped?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Been a while since I did this...

The NTH Website is now sold out of these models:

Skipjack
Scorpene Nomad
Amphion Vintage Gilt

All remaining stock of those models can be found at one of our retailers - https://nthwatches.com/pages/authorized-retailers


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> will nth sell replacement movements for the 9015 and install them for us?


Seeing as I highly doubt you'll own your NTH this long anyways, read up on the 6&6 guarantee.

You wont have to pay for the new movement.


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Love ya Doc.

My pants get tighter when I think of you. Weird huh?









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## mythless (Feb 21, 2016)

I am curious, how much extra would it cost to make the sub out of grade 2 titanium?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mythless said:


> I am curious, how much extra would it cost to make the sub out of grade 2 titanium?


I don't know Docs costs. Or tooling costs. But 2019Q4 costs(that I found)averaged $54/sq. ft. for 316L, and $78/sq. ft. for Ti2.

Edit: dont hold me to those numbers. Buying metals in bulk is far from what I do. I just use the google machine to the best of my ability for a couple minutes.


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

What strap is that on the Santa Cruz? That's a really sharp color; I'll bet it would look good an the Nacken Blue too.


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Toonces said:


> What strap is that on the Santa Cruz? That's a really sharp color; I'll bet it would look good an the Nacken Blue too.


This is from cheapest NATO. A bit on the think side but doesn't feel too bulky. I had to open the holes a bit before I stuck in the pins. But cheap enough if you want to try out some different colors.

If you like the canvas straps you can't beat Zach at cincy strap works or Barton watch straps.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Toonces said:
> 
> 
> > What strap is that on the Santa Cruz? That's a really sharp color; I'll bet it would look good an the Nacken Blue too.
> ...


CheapestNATO is trying to liquidate as much inventory as possible right now. Pretty much everything is 50-70% off. Plus you can still get an extra 20% off if you order 5 or more and use their code.

I got all of these for between $5-7 a piece.








I've become a fan of the SEAL straps. Kind of frustrating training my hand to put em on... but no holes. So perfect fit with easy adjustment once it's on.


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

I remember one time I went skiing. I always bring my own equipment. I ski at expert level, and hate taking advice. At this time, my skis were straight old school, and I wanted to try the newer shaped skis. As the guy was adjusting, he tells me I should rent new boots for the day, since mine were very old. These boots literally skiid all over the world including the Swiss alps. I couldn't possibly rent boots. I shrugged, and he insisted. Told me that although they appeared to be in good shape, the plastics, etc were old. 

To make a long story short, half way through the morning my boot literally shattered and sent me flying. I had to go back in and rent new boots, and of course received the I told you so look. They actually asked me if they could keep it on display to show others the risk, and I agreed.

Long story short, I learned that although it can look good, it might be about to shatter.........

Just because the watch "Seems" ok...
....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Love ya Doc.
> 
> My pants get tighter when I think of you. Weird huh?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


It would only be weird if they didn't, Shane.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mythless said:


> I am curious, how much extra would it cost to make the sub out of grade 2 titanium?


I admit, I haven't been that curious.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I don't know Docs costs. Or tooling costs. But 2019Q4 costs(that I found)averaged $54/sq. ft. for 316L, and $78/sq. ft. for Ti2.
> 
> Edit: dont hold me to those numbers. Buying metals in bulk is far from what I do. I just use the google machine to the best of my ability for a couple minutes.


I'm sure it would be more expensive.

Have I mentioned what a big fan of stainless steel I am?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> Thank You!
> Now for Q & A follow up:
> 1. Did you pass your check ride?
> 2. Did you get a better score than the other guy?
> 3. Check Pilot. Full time job or do they rotate between that and flying regular routes?


1. Yes. I think I've had over 50 over the years. Only one to go before I retire.
2. No scores, but the check airman and the first officer kept discussing stuff the other guy did, so I win. 
3. Check pilots (Line Check Airmen) are designated by the FAA and are actually line pilots from within the company. They do training for new guys and semi-annual checks for the captains. We get a simulator check every 9 months, and one in the airplane every two years. I was a LCA on the 767, but hadn't volunteered yet on the A330. But I think with all the weirdness going on, they may need more folks, so I may volunteer again.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> This is from cheapest NATO. A bit on the think side but doesn't feel too bulky. I had to open the holes a bit before I stuck in the pins. But cheap enough if you want to try out some different colors.
> 
> If you like the canvas straps you can't beat Zach at cincy strap works or Barton watch straps.
> 
> ...


Is Cheapest NATO still in business? I saw some sort of "buy a strap or we'll be broke next week" promotion going on recently. There was some minor argle-bargle about it in one of the watch groups on FB.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Ojibway Bob said:
> 
> 
> > This is from cheapest NATO. A bit on the think side but doesn't feel too bulky. I had to open the holes a bit before I stuck in the pins. But cheap enough if you want to try out some different colors.
> ...


For now they are. Trying to stay afloat it seems. Had some delivered monday that I ordered Friday. Not bad seeing as that's Sweden to Dallas.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> For now they are. Trying to stay afloat it seems. Had some delivered monday that I ordered Friday. Not bad seeing as that's Sweden to Dallas.


I'm sorry to hear that. I also love CheapestNatoStraps; they're great value! And if you couldn't tell from my collection of NTHs I listed earlier, I VALUE GREAT VALUES! =) I hope they stay afloat. I was always wondering how she managed to send me straps for so cheap from Sweden to the US.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> Thanks for your business. I love hearing that people enjoy my team's work product. Don't let your enjoyment of this semi-expensive hobby lead to problems in your personal life.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply, Doc!

When I talk to my local watchmakers, they don't care about what movements any watch uses. They don't play favorites with Swiss watches or movements which is especially why I like them. They can service them all (which is what you want in a watchmaker!), and say it doesn't matter what movement a watch uses as long as it keeps good time. They don't care if it's a Japanese, Swiss, or whatever type of movement. No snobbery in either of them which is why I will always work with them! For those reasons, they both personally only have quartz in their collections (which they also don't really care about). Being immigrants that have lived in communist areas for part of their lives; I think they both just like something accurate, simple, and durable. I'm sure working on clocks and watches all day eventually makes you sick of fixing watches too which is why I'm sure they like to keep it simple in their own collections. =)

The first time and place I took a mechanical watch in for service, I went to a certified Rolex, Patek, AP, etc jewelry store type dealer. The woman who I talked to about the repair (besides looking and sounding like Roz from Monsters Inc) had such a bad attitude. It was a Pronto watch I brought in that used a modified (branded rotor) ETA, and the first words out of her mouth were, "So what is this? A fake Rolex?" I replied, "Nope! It is an homage to the Submariner, but I have a day/date feature and paid less than 1/50th the price of a Sub." She wasn't amused and told me she'd "send it out" even though there were 2 watchmakers behind a glass window just behind her that I figured should be able to service an ETA since older Rolex use them and they sell Rolex there. Got the watch back more than 3 months later after numerous calls, and guess what? It was running worse! Much worse! And it still had the same winding issue (more anecdotal evidence for the internet files)! I still am not sure what those watchmakers behind the glass in that store were doing. Lots of movement from them every time I went in there. Much more than any other watchmaker I've ever observed. I feel like they were constantly pressure testing something which didn't make sense to me, but I always saw them playing around with something filled with water. I wouldn't be surprised if they were just paid to make themselves look like busy professionals! HAHA

After getting my money back from that place and doing some more searching, I drove a bit farther and found my two watchmakers that I still use today. Their first words when seeing the Pronto watch and taking the caseback off in front of me were, "Take a look at this! It uses an ETA movement." I knew it was in good hands then! They have done regulations and other small things for me for free that I am sure other places usually charge for. I've heard Omega and other ADs will charge as much as $100 for something as small as a strap change on your Omega if you didn't buy it from them. Just ridiculous IMO. It's really a blessing to have a good local watchmaker when you're only as skilled as I am right now. I won't work on anything except simple quartz. And nothing too high in value unless it's my own. I know my limits.

Thank you again for the detailed reply, and keep making some of the best looking (AND RELIABLE) watches money can buy! The NTH Subs feel great on the wrist and have everything I want in a watch: screw down crown, sapphire crystal, drilled lugs, and a bezel that doesn't scuff easily. You've got the formula down. I see others (even in ads at the top of this forum) trying to copy, but nothing beats the original!

Stay well,

Mike


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

92gli said:


> LOL. I'm a big bicycle nut. Everyone calls and texts me about bike questions. Everyone is pulling bikes out of the basements and attics lately, for obvious reasons. This was twice in the last week...
> 
> Them - Pulling the bike out and dusting it off. Need to find something else to do with the kids.
> Me - Get new tires. I'll tell you what to get and put them on for you if you want.
> ...


I've learned the dangers of old tires the hard way. I was comfortable on a cruiser I owned that had dry rotted tires with some tread on them still. Never changed them, and when the rainy season came (I'm in SFL, so it's almost always rainy season), I learned quickly not to be so cocky on poorly maintenanced equipment! The ass end swung out in a turn I was whipping, and I did the ultimate no-no: put my foot down. I popped the bike back up, but spent 10 minutes while the adrenaline wore off convinced I probably broke my foot. Luckily I'm as tough as I am dumb, and everything worked out ok. I wish I could say that was the last time I did something stupid on a bike, but you only need to read one sentence before this one to figure out that's not the truth. 

Stay safe out there, guys!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Ah, didn't realize that's what you were asking. Some of the nicest watches made using the 9015 are from Laco.
> 
> View attachment 15018025


Good tip. Ironically, the Philly model has an ETA...









This one is a looker and has a 9015...


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## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

Skipjack looking good in the sun.








Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

About to pull the trigger on an NTH. Both sit in the shopping cart as we speak......

Between these two, which do you choose, and why?

• Santa Cruz
• Barracuda (blue)


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> It would only be weird if they didn't, Shane.


Touché...

Opps I meant touch me.

I really meant you touch my heart.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> About to pull the trigger on an NTH. Both sit in the shopping cart as we speak......
> 
> Between these two, which do you choose, and why?
> 
> ...


Well I have a Santa and I luv good ole Klaus so I'ma go with the Cruz.

The NTH I yearn for really really mucho is the Nacken Modern Blue!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Dec1968 said:


> About to pull the trigger on an NTH. Both sit in the shopping cart as we speak......
> 
> Between these two, which do you choose, and why?
> 
> ...


I'd go Santa Cruz because I'm a fan of contrast. The silver bracelet/case into the blue bezel into the white dial grabs my attention more than the Barracudas silver into blue into blue.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Well I have a Santa and I luv good ole Klaus so I'ma go with the Cruz.
> 
> The NTH I yearn for really really mucho is the Nacken Modern Blue!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


The Modern Blue (with date) is in stock at Watch Gauge and Serious Watches. Only a few pieces left, though.

Just sayin'...


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> The Modern Blue (with date) is in stock at Watch Gauge and Serious Watches. Only a few pieces left, though.
> 
> Just sayin'...


I saw that as well - it's on the list, and he should buy it!! Very good looking. I love the stark white against the blue. Good color choices. Prefer round indices personally on watches, my Omega Seamaster being the exception.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Doc,

Just had an update that Noah's burial was yesterday come through my email. I'm glad so many were able to come to aid Noah's family and ease that terrible burden. 

It's also awesome to see the family is looking into starting a scholarship in his name. That's incredibly selfless of them. 

Again, condolences from down here in the Lone Star State.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> I'd go Santa Cruz because I'm a fan of contrast. The silver bracelet/case into the blue bezel into the white dial grabs my attention more than the Barracudas silver into blue into blue.


The elements on that watch (Santa Cruz) are so tastefully done - the texture on the dial, it's color, the indices, the hands, the blue, all of it is simply stunning. To me it's the best looking watch of the bunch. I'm just cautious about visibility in the sunlight - I'm so used to a dark dial with bright light hands against it - easy to view. Is there any concern over visibility in daylight?

Good friend knows I'm a huge sailor and he said it screams 'sailboat' to him and that he says it's the watch that looks the most like me. I've only ever had one other white dial on a watch, a Christmas gift eons ago from my Mom, a Fossil. Cheap quartz watch. But it looked great.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Dec1968 said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > I'd go Santa Cruz because I'm a fan of contrast. The silver bracelet/case into the blue bezel into the white dial grabs my attention more than the Barracudas silver into blue into blue.
> ...


I can't speak to the Santa Cruz, but my white dialed Nazario Sauro is incredibly legible in any light including the blinding Texas mid day sun.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> I can't speak to the Santa Cruz, but my white dialed Nazario Sauro is incredibly legible in any light including the blinding Texas mid day sun.


I'm in N Texas myself and I can attest to blinding sunlight.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

How long does WatchGauge normally take to ship? I'll reveal the purchase when it arrives....trigger was pulled.


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## rneiman3 (May 17, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> I can't speak to the Santa Cruz, but my white dialed Nazario Sauro is incredibly legible in any light including the blinding Texas mid day sun.


+1


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Dec1968 said:


> How long does WatchGauge normally take to ship? I'll reveal the purchase when it arrives....trigger was pulled.


John is usually pretty quick. Plus you get a nice lil personalized note with every purchase. You will need to be there to sign for it on delivery though.

My first purchase(Tikuna) from him came with an NTH branded UV lume torch too! Both my Tik and Sauro came with a nice koala cloth to clean finger smudges off of the crystal.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> John is usually pretty quick. Plus you get a nice lil personalized note with every purchase. You will need to be there to sign for it on delivery though.
> 
> My first purchase(Tikuna) from him came with an NTH branded UV lume torch too! Both my Tik and Sauro came with a nice koala cloth to clean finger smudges off of the crystal.


That's really nice. Right now I'm working from home so signing for it will work. I'm happy to hear the extra touches like that. To me that makes a world of different and why I'm happy already. Thanks for sharing.

I'm willing to bet I'll buy the other of the two watches I mentioned within days of receipt of the one I bought.

I'm also reducing my collection - Seiko's are going away.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> The elements on that watch (Santa Cruz) are so tastefully done - the texture on the dial, it's color, the indices, the hands, the blue, all of it is simply stunning. To me it's the best looking watch of the bunch. I'm just cautious about visibility in the sunlight - I'm so used to a dark dial with bright light hands against it - easy to view. Is there any concern over visibility in daylight?
> 
> Good friend knows I'm a huge sailor and he said it screams 'sailboat' to him and that he says it's the watch that looks the most like me. I've only ever had one other white dial on a watch, a Christmas gift eons ago from my Mom, a Fossil. Cheap quartz watch. But it looked great.


As lifelong sailor, USCG unlimited Master Oceans and summer 2019 Dartmouth YC fleet Laser champ, (my garage has more racing one-designs in it than cars), I voted with my wallet for the 'Cuda


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## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

92gli said:


> LOL. I'm a big bicycle nut. Everyone calls and texts me about bike questions. Everyone is pulling bikes out of the basements and attics lately, for obvious reasons. This was twice in the last week...
> 
> Them - Pulling the bike out and dusting it off. Need to find something else to do with the kids.
> Me - Get new tires. I'll tell you what to get and put them on for you if you want.
> ...


Heh! I used to run a bike corral at Burning Man for our village, the Blue Light District. These were loaners for people who flew in and didn't have their own bikes, or anyone who needed one to get around. I'd buy cheap garage sale bikes, fix any minor problems, lube them up, put a tag on them with the BLD's name, and off they went. Never lost one, and gained a few contributions from people who bought Goodwill bikes and didn't want to haul them back.

Tires and tubes. Those were the key parts that always needed replacement.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> How long does WatchGauge normally take to ship? I'll reveal the purchase when it arrives....trigger was pulled.


My experience with watch gauge was perfect. Great communication. Fast shipping and super responsive to emails.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## riff raff (Dec 28, 2015)

Man, you NTH guys are weirdo's. But I really want a Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300....


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

riff raff said:


> Man, you NTH guys are weirdo's. But I really want a Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300....


If you're serious, PM me.


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> If you're serious, PM me.


Say it ain't so, Mikey. I think you and me have the only with-date C 300 I see around here any more


----------



## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

I have the black version with date too! It's a great watch! =)


----------



## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

The modern blue rocks


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Doc,
> 
> Just had an update that Noah's burial was yesterday come through my email. I'm glad so many were able to come to aid Noah's family and ease that terrible burden.
> 
> ...


Thanks, brother, also for supporting the cause.

The GoFundMe went viral, with over 25,000 shares. It even caught the attention of local news media, who reached out to me for comment - https://www.localdvm.com/news/i-270...ior-by-raising-thousands-beyond-initial-goal/.

The money raised was more than enough to cover Noah's funeral expenses. My guess is it's also more than enough to cover any counseling the family needs, and repair the damage to their home and cars, which were also shot up (insurance isn't covering all of it).

They're good people. I think it's only natural that they'd want any remaining funds to go towards doing something selfless, to honor the memory of their son.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

rscaletta said:


> Say it ain't so, Mikey. I think you and me have the only with-date C 300 I see around here any more


Nope. Mine's a no-date. I didn't say I want to let it go, but if he is sufficiently motivated, I might be persuaded.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Lovely day for some of Vail's finest work.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I wonder if it's like opening the refrigerator quickly to see if you can catch the light coming on. If you open the cupboard, does the light coming in start the watch before you can see if it had been stopped?


Citizen Eco-drive watches (at least the RC versions, I haven't ever owned the super cheap "dumb" ones) have a sleep mode if you store them in the dark so that they hold their charge longer. The second hand will move to 12, and then stop, until the watch sees light again. If you have them in a closed watch case or in a drawer or something and you open it quickly, you can usually catch them coming out of sleep mode. If you do let the solar capacitor run all the way down to zero, just taking them out of whatever you had them in won't be enough. It takes them several hours sitting under direct light, like a window sill or a table lamp, to have enough charge to start moving again.

I had this happen a few times with my JDM Attesa chrono that I had for a little while. The solar cap in that watch was on its way out, and so it wouldn't charge past 75% according to the PR hand, and it would only last a couple of weeks without being charged, instead of several months.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Please, people, DO NOT store a solar-powered watch in the dark! Just don't.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Avo said:


> Please, people, DO NOT store a solar-powered watch in the dark! Just don't.


I'll second that. All of mine live on a North-facing window sill.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Sauro on the burgundy n black today.


----------



## Siddy (Dec 12, 2019)

Pretty happy to have one of these now. I can take it off my wish list finally. The strap is temporary(although I kinda like it), waiting on a new one from strapsco.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Quarantine boredom. 4th watch I've put on today....


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> rscaletta said:
> 
> 
> > Say it ain't so, Mikey. I think you and me have the only with-date C 300 I see around here any more
> ...


No date blue checking in here


----------



## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

Got the bracelet resized at last.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Happy Easter, to those who celebrate it.


----------



## highend (Feb 14, 2020)

Thanks @docvail..
Happy Easter to you too.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

One of the things I don’t love about in person church is when they ask you to shake hands with the people around you. 

I don’t think that pet will ever peeve me again. Even when we transition back from online services. 

Happy Easter, all!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Happy, safe, and healthy Easter and Passover to you all.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Happy Easter to you all










I think I went a little overboard this year, but the kids are happy at least!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> One of the things I don't love about in person church is when they ask you to shake hands with the people around you.
> 
> I don't think that pet will ever peeve me again. Even when we transition back from online services.
> 
> ...


This entire event has been an unintentional exercise in determining which things really matter to me, and which things do not. I've surprised myself by some of my conclusions.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Maybe I was living under a rock but just saw Serious Watches videos on youtube of NTH. Love how they zoomed in on every little detail on the dial.






Oberon II incoming!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> This entire event has been an unintentional exercise in determining which things really matter to me, and which things do not. I've surprised myself by some of my conclusions.


Do tell!

Mine have been largely trivial. Like shaving regularly is a waste of time. And that clothes that require ironing are part of a conspiracy to unnecessarily ruin my mood on weekends.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> Happy Easter, to those who celebrate it.


Thanks. Even though my family's not religious, we had a good Easter with my 4-year-old.
Yesterday, we decorated eggs. It kept her attention most of the time-- I was only abandoned with about 4 eggs to finish. 
The Easter Bunny came last night. Before she went to bed, my daughter said "Why does Santa always get treats and the Easter Bunny doesn't?" So we decided to make a treat basket for the bunny with some water, a basket, a plastic small soccer ball, some carrots and lettuce, and some candy (just in case) (the soccer ball and basket was a nice way for us to get rid of unnecessary crap that she usually irrationally holds on to when we say it's time to donate or throw away).

Well, EB was good to my daughter because of that, bringing a full, solid chocolate bunny, 21 eggs filled with candy, peeps, and a 6-pack of "Hatchimals". She had so much fun looking for eggs, we had to repeat the contest three more times during the day.

No pics of that, but rather a pic of my Nacken on BOP. 








For the reasons I stated in this thread: 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/one-watch-year-one-5013695-10.html#post51445057

I've come to realize that my Nacken is my (near-) Perfect Daily Wearer. It's been my almost exclusive coronavirus watch, even though some of the others in my collection (like my Seiko divers) might be more appropriate for sitting at my home office in my PJs, getting in our hot tub, and braving the folks refusing to social distance at the grocery store. It's "my" watch. And while I still get the itch to purchase once in a while, and while I certainly like having other watches in my collection for other circumstances (something dressier for suits, though the Nacken can work easily in that circumstance; something really tool-ish for a beater; something light for running), when I look at most of the watches, I just think "it's not going to get very much wrist time because I own the Nacken." 
Maybe I'll have the discipline to save up for an AT Skyfall--probably the only watch I could ever afford that might replace the Nacken. Or maybe I can find something that will share time with the Nacken, especially when I go to work (maybe a Nomos, or a Monta, or something like that).
But until then, or until my attention is diverted to a different hobby, this is where I am. My Nacken, a couple other watches for special occasions, a couple other watches that have sentimental value, and that's it. 
It's a weird feeling. But, you know, good job, Chris.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> shaving regularly is a waste of time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I discovered that long ago... hence my handle.

One day I just decided to say screw it. Havent looked back since. I do get stereotyped quite a bit though... I was(not really) shocked to discover pretty much everyone at my company thought I was a a lumberjack/mountain man who moved out of the woods into the city.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

@Doc-

I’ll probably be flogged for bringing this up but please have mercy on me. 

I just saw Mercer Watch is coming out with a GMT using the Soprod C125. I know you have mentioned not doing a GMT because there aren’t any “affordable” movements. This is one of the first micros that I’ve noticed with a GMT and I have no idea what price they are going to charge. 

Is this Soprod movement new? I know you haven’t used Soprod movements in the past, and there is probably a reason for that but know people have asked about GMTs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> @Doc-
> 
> I'll probably be flogged for bringing this up but please have mercy on me.
> 
> ...


Ocean Crawler uses it in their Core Diver line. Those go for around $1500 new. Oak and Oscar uses em. That should give you a good guesstimate as to the cost of the Mercer.

And Soprod is Swiss, though I think they're owned by a Spanish company now. Dont get me wrong, I like Swiss. But Doc prefers the Japanese movements.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Happy Easter to you all
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats awesome!!!!!


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

Black with-date for today


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> 3WR said:
> 
> 
> > One of the things I don't love about in person church is when they ask you to shake hands with the people around you.
> ...


Agreed. I've wondered a few things. First, are other people thinking about priorities the way I have been, and once this is all said and done, how long will it take for people to forget what really matters and go back to "business as usual?"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Is this Soprod movement new?


I dunno.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Ocean Crawler uses it in their Core Diver line. Those go for around $1500 new. Oak and Oscar uses em. That should give you a good guesstimate as to the cost of the Mercer.
> 
> And Soprod is Swiss, though I think they're owned by a Spanish company now. Dont get me wrong, I like Swiss. But Doc prefers the Japanese movements.


I thought I read Soprod was bought by a Chinese company. Not that they're not still Swiss, though.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> I thought I read Soprod was bought by a Chinese company. Not that they're not still Swiss, though.


Thanks all! I guess we shall wait for a Japanese GMT!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

As per Caliber Corner, Soprod is owned by Festina, so Spanish rather than Chinese. 

"Roughly equivalent to ETA 2893-2, exact same size, so it will be the ebauche found in a lot of formerly-ETA-supplied budget GMTs. Has a few extra jewels, not sure where though.

Function, fortunately or unfortunately, is the same as ETA 2893-2 with quick-set 24H hand rather than quick-set local time (as on a “true” GMT), because the GMT module is built on what would be the day module."

Alpina's Pilot Heritage GMT has a jumping hour hand using an ETA...but it only goes forwards, so not that useful.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I thought I read Soprod was bought by a Chinese company. Not that they're not still Swiss, though.





Davekaye90 said:


> As per Caliber Corner, Soprod is owned by Festina, so Spanish rather than Chinese.


I stand corrected.

https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Soprod

Soprod was part of a group purchased by Hong Kong company Peace Mark in 2007 (as I'd read), but that company became insolvent in 2008, when the group was purchased by Festina.

Either way, I'd argue Soprod is still Swiss, not Chinese, nor Spanish, since they're still headquartered in Switzerland, where their movement factory still is, ownership of the company notwithstanding.

There was speculation that Soprod had licensed the design of the 4L25 from Seiko, and turned it into the A10, but that the purchase of Soprod by a Chinese company soured Seiko on their deal, forcing the two companies to part ways. It was rumored Seiko didn't want the Chinese to have access to their IP.



Davekaye90 said:


> "Roughly equivalent to ETA 2893-2, exact same size, so it will be the ebauche found in a lot of formerly-ETA-supplied budget GMTs. Has a few extra jewels, not sure where though.
> 
> Function, fortunately or unfortunately, is the same as ETA 2893-2 with quick-set 24H hand rather than quick-set local time (as on a "true" GMT), because the GMT module is built on what would be the day module."
> 
> Alpina's Pilot Heritage GMT has a jumping hour hand using an ETA...but it only goes forwards, so not that useful.


That's because they're basing their GMT on the 2836, not the 2892. I think it only goes forward because it's built off the day wheel, which only moves forward.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Alpina's using Selitta movements, not ETAs, as the base for their calibre. It would be whatever Selitta's equivalent of the 2836 is.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Thanks all! I guess we shall wait for a Japanese GMT!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you're waiting on me to make one, then, yes, you're probably waiting for the Japanese to make a GMT calibre available for wholesale purchase.

Even at that, I'm not sure I'd use it. It would depend on the cost, and functionality. If it's going to substantially raise the cost over a 3-hander, and if the way the GMT functions is going to cause WIS to whinge about it, I may just skip it, and stick to 3-handers.

I'm pretty sure that Orient's GMT's also work like the ETA's, not like the Rolex. Not that the Orient calibre is available. It isn't. But the fact that aside from Rolex, it seems like every (or at least, every affordable) GMT is "wrong", makes me wonder if there isn't some substantial reason why we don't see more independently set-able hour hands with GMT's.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> If you're waiting on me to make one, then, yes, you're probably waiting for the Japanese to make a GMT calibre available for wholesale purchase.
> 
> Even at that, I'm not sure I'd use it. It would depend on the cost, and functionality. If it's going to substantially raise the cost over a 3-hander, and if the way the GMT functions is going to cause WIS to whinge about it, I may just skip it, and stick to 3-handers.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Orient's GMT's also work like the ETA's, not like the Rolex. Not that the Orient calibre is available. It isn't. But the fact that aside from Rolex, it seems like every (or at least, every affordable) GMT is "wrong", makes me wonder if there isn't some substantial reason why we don't see more independently set-able hour hands with GMT's.


ETA now makes a "correct" GMT, but from what I read its all staying in house so I dont think micros are going to have access to them. You can get a Mido, Tissot, or Certina with them now, it think its part of the powermatic 80 line


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

PixlPutterMan said:


> ETA now makes a "correct" GMT, but from what I read its all staying in house so I dont think micros are going to have access to them. You can get a Mido, Tissot, or Certina with them now, it think its part of the powermatic 80 line


If they made these in a reasonable size, I'd be all over them, but they don't, so... If anyone can point me to one of these at 40mm or less, happy to check it out.

I fell down a Seiko movement rabbit hole with the 8f56 quartz GMT movement. Accurate to 20spy (this claim has been challenged), 10yr battery life, perpetual calendar, and independently adjustable hour hand. The perpetual calendar means you can run the hour hand forward and backward without changing the date. I'm not sure even Rolex can claim that, and it spoiled me for other GMT movements, but especially the ETA 2892. Ronda quartz GMT movements don't have a clicky action and a kind of vague setting of the GMT hand.

Seems that Seiko discontinued the 8f56 in favor of a Kinetic GMT movement (which shows up in way-too-large watches), and the 9f GS series, which is priced way out of my league. I've got one 8f56 watch left, a Sportura SLT079, which has actually been swiped for use by Mrs-ish mconlonx, so the last GMT standing at the moment for me is a Vostok with 2426.02 movement, where the GMT hand is a 24hr hand slaved to the 12hr hour hand, with a 24hr rotating bezel, like the original GMT movements back in the 60s and 70s from Rolex, Zodiac, Seiko, etc.

I'm kind of done with mechanical GMT movements at the moment. And since I don't usually travel outside of my local hemisphere, a Scorpene Nomad is everything I need in a watch which can display dual time-zones. Beyond that, if the need arises, it would be a Casio "Royale" AE1200, or maybe an Oceanus 100S.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I need to be on the look out for the 8f56 then, I have the same issue with the kinetic gmt, plus it's a pain to keep charged if you don't wear it a lot.

This has become my traveler...



mconlonx said:


> PixlPutterMan said:
> 
> 
> > ETA now makes a "correct" GMT, but from what I read its all staying in house so I dont think micros are going to have access to them. You can get a Mido, Tissot, or Certina with them now, it think its part of the powermatic 80 line
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> ETA now makes a "correct" GMT, but from what I read its all staying in house so I dont think micros are going to have access to them. You can get a Mido, Tissot, or Certina with them now, it think its part of the powermatic 80 line


That's interesting (in the academic sense, not in the "maybe I'll use it" sense). I'd be keen to see more about it, or more specifically, its functions.

I edited my earlier post from last night, not long after posting it, when I realized that either from being tired, or just failing memory, I wasn't entirely sure how the GMT function on the 2893-2 compares to the 2836-2 day/date conversion (i.e., how each works), even though I swear I just looked at it less than a year ago.

But, as I was thinking about it...this is where not being a watchmaker limits how much I know, and intuitively understand. But, here goes (thinking out loud)...

Setting the time on most three-hand movements demonstrates that the operation of each hand is tied to the other. When we advance the time, both the minute and hour hand move forward, the hour hand advancing one hour every time the minute hand makes a complete rotation around the dial.

I wonder how much of an engineering challenge it was for Rolex to first decouple the hour and minute hand, so that the hour hand could be set independently. Even more impressive, they made it so the hour hand jumped in one-hour increments. More amazingly, I'm pretty sure the movement isn't hacked when making that adjustment, so the seconds keep rolling. And, capping it all off, they incorporated a backwards-rolling date wheel.

When you add all that up, it's pretty impressive, at least to me, since I'm not a watchmaker, and not really all that mechanically inclined. I assume that the challenges were daunting, since most other GMT's don't seem to operate that way. And, like I said, I'd be interested to know how ETA's new GMT's compare to Rolex's, in terms of functionality.

Even if I was predisposed to use Swiss movements, a big part of the reason I haven't considered doing a GMT is the fact that I know guys online whinge about how the ETA-based GMT's operate. The additional cost to add that complication just makes me even less interested.

All that said, even if the function wasn't "correct", I might be more interested in a Japanese alternative, at the right price.


----------



## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

docvail said:


> When you add all that up, it's pretty impressive, at least to me, since I'm not a watchmaker, and not really all that mechanically inclined. I assume that the challenges were daunting, since most other GMT's don't seem to operate that way. And, like I said, I'd be interested to know how ETA's new GMT's compare to Rolex's, in terms of functionality.


ETA has "access" to Omega's expertise and their GMT calibers like the 8906 et al have the same traveler functionality of the modern Rolex calibers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ilitig8 said:


> ETA has "access" to Omega's expertise and their GMT calibers like the 8906 et al have the same traveler functionality of the modern Rolex calibers.


All the same functions? That's really interesting.

Not just from a "wow, that's neat" perspective, but as an observer of business, it's interesting to see how technology trickles down from halo products to mainstream products.

I wonder if there's a future where other movement manufacturers adopt or adapt the design innovation.

Why is "access" in quotes, by the way? I may be missing some subtle implication there. Is the access not what we'd imagine it is?


----------



## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

Access was in quote because I doubt ETA can just run over to the Omega building and grab up whatever IP they like. Swatch would control that flow.

Yes the Omega GMT movements have had the same functionality as the Rolex GMT movements for a while now. Speaking of trickling down the Tudor GMT movement has the same functionality as well but it is plagued with the date wheel jumping issue. The fact Rolex moved the traveller GMT function down to Tudor is likely the impetus for Swatch moving it down market to ETA but my gut tells me it will be a Swatch Group only movement.

I should note there are actually a handful of movements spread around with an independent hours hand that moves without hacking as well as a backwards moving date.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Glitch in the Matrix.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Following up on the discussion around other Miyota watches, just discovered this Geckota now comes with Miyota. But just the blue one. Other colors (and my blue one when I got it) come with ETA.

It doesn't say any country name on the dial. So I can tell WIS hipsters it has a Japanese movement. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

What are the chances a "Swiss Quartz" (haven't found specific movement model yet) would have whatever is the "correct" GMT behavior?

General interest b/c I think this looks kinda cool. Not suggesting it for an NTH.

No date. So that's one proper Rolex feat it doesn't have to try replicating. With zero effort researching, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume a dateless GMT is not the norm.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ilitig8 said:


> Access was in quote because I doubt ETA can just run over to the Omega building and grab up whatever IP they like. Swatch would control that flow.
> 
> Yes the Omega GMT movements have had the same functionality as the Rolex GMT movements for a while now. Speaking of trickling down the Tudor GMT movement has the same functionality as well but it is plagued with the date wheel jumping issue. The fact Rolex moved the traveller GMT function down to Tudor is likely the impetus for Swatch moving it down market to ETA but my gut tells me it will be a Swatch Group only movement.
> 
> I should note there are actually a handful of movements spread around with an independent hours hand that moves without hacking as well as a backwards moving date.


I'm only aware that people have complained about the date change in the Tudor, but I don't know what the complaint is, specifically.

When you say others have GMT's that function the way Rolex's does, are we talking affordable movements, or mostly in the Rolex/Omega range, and higher (aside from the recent development of ETA's GMT's appearing in lower-end brands)?



3WR said:


> Following up on the discussion around other Miyota watches, just discovered this Geckota now comes with Miyota. But just the blue one. Other colors (and my blue one when I got it) come with ETA.
> 
> It doesn't say any country name on the dial. So I can tell WIS hipsters it has a Japanese movement.
> 
> ...


Is it just me, or do these Geckotas have a distinctly Seiko SARB vibe to them?



3WR said:


> What are the chances a "Swiss Quartz" (haven't found specific movement model yet) would have whatever is the "correct" GMT behavior?
> 
> General interest b/c I think this looks kinda cool. Not suggesting it for an NTH.
> 
> ...


No idea how the movement in that one works.

I think it's weird that there'd be no date on a GMT. I don't like having the date on my watches, but if it was a GMT, I think maybe having the date should be kind of mandatory.

Maybe it's just in my head. Day to day, I rarely need to know, and am only vaguely aware of the date. But when I travel, when a GMT function would actually be useful, it seems like I'd need or want to have that info more frequently.

Like, when I fly to Hong Kong. They're 12 hours ahead, and it's about a 24 hour flight. I leave mid-day Saturday, here. I get there early in the morning on Monday, there. That messes with my head. I think I'd want the date function to help me keep track of what day it is.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

ilitig8 said:


> I should note there are actually a handful of movements spread around with an independent hours hand that moves without hacking as well as a backwards moving date.


Any in the affordable range?

I had the Seamaster GMT, loved it but got an offer I couldn't pass up so I sold it.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Doc, outside of the new ETA movement I'm not aware of any "affordable" options in the proper GMT space.

frederique constant and Alpina are close but the hour hand only goes in one direction, date change the other way.

Outside that it's just quartz


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Is it just me, or do these Geckotas have a distinctly Seiko SARB vibe to them?


I'm curious where you're seeing the SARB connection. The Geckotas are broad shouldered, with with a flat lug shape on top, and a very sharp transition to a polished side. SARB cases tend to drape more around the shoulders, and they are also very rounded in the middle. The E-01 case at least is the opposite of that, on the left side of the watch the profile is almost completely flat, meeting to a point in the middle. If anything, I see more Tag than Seiko in the overall case shape. It's an interesting watch, but the font isn't for me.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Was curious how a different handset would look....


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

These Alpina 4 GMT have a module added to the Sellita SW-200 making the hour hand quickset, so they are true GMT. These were sold new under $400USD each during the 2018 holiday shopping season online. They are 44mm. There is an all black dial version. The date changes when the 24H hand passes midnight, as apparently the 24H hand is connected to the date wheel, which is useful for pilots and sailors who track GMT date for logs and records in their voyages.



So, while not for everyone, they are an affordable true GMT.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> These Alpina 4 GMT have a module added to the Sellita SW-200 making the hour hand quickset, so they are true GMT. These were sold new under $400USD each during the 2018 holiday shopping season online. They are 44mm. There is an all black dial version. The date changes when the 24H hand passes midnight, as apparently the 24H hand is connected to the date wheel, which is useful for pilots and sailors who track GMT date for logs and records in their voyages.
> 
> So, while not for everyone, they are an affordable true GMT.


Something I've never understood with these - what's with the bezel that goes from 3 through 36?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Updated my ultimate Golden Eye mod with stick hands. I would totally buy this thing if it existed.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Something I've never understood with these - what's with the bezel that goes from 3 through 36?


Compass, there is a great youtube video about how to use it.






Edit: Well, there used to be, but that video was taken down.

Here is another:






And a WUS compass thread link:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f365/how-operate-compass-ring-watch-288537.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Doc, outside of the new ETA movement I'm not aware of any "affordable" options in the proper GMT space.
> 
> frederique constant and Alpina are close but the hour hand only goes in one direction, date change the other way.
> 
> Outside that it's just quartz


I'm pretty sure the Alpina and FC are both based on 2836-2 day/date clones.

Like I said, I wonder if the challenges involved in getting a GMT to work the way Rolex's does make an affordable & mechanical GMT a bridge too far.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm curious where you're seeing the SARB connection. The Geckotas are broad shouldered, with with a flat lug shape on top, and a very sharp transition to a polished side. SARB cases tend to drape more around the shoulders, and they are also very rounded in the middle. The E-01 case at least is the opposite of that, on the left side of the watch the profile is almost completely flat, meeting to a point in the middle. If anything, I see more Tag than Seiko in the overall case shape. It's an interesting watch, but the font isn't for me.
> 
> View attachment 15031973


The SARB resemblance isn't a criticism.

The SARB cases are not all the same, not even close. The 001-005 are very different than the 007-011, which are very different than the 041, which is different than the 043, which is different than the 045, etc.

The case looks like a mash-up of several SARB cases, notably the 007-011 and the 015-019 (Alpinist).

The font of the word "Automatic" seems very similar. The long stick markers and color fade dial remind me of the SARB007-011. The handset is vaguely similar to the 017 Alpinist handset.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Was curious how a different handset would look....
> 
> View attachment 15032137


Like a SARB015.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> These Alpina 4 GMT have a module added to the Sellita SW-200 making the hour hand quickset, so they are true GMT. These were sold new under $400USD each during the 2018 holiday shopping season online. They are 44mm. There is an all black dial version. The date changes when the 24H hand passes midnight, as apparently the 24H hand is connected to the date wheel, which is useful for pilots and sailors who track GMT date for logs and records in their voyages.
> 
> 
> 
> So, while not for everyone, they are an affordable true GMT.


Does the seconds hand keep going when the hour hand is adjusted, or is the movement hacked?

Does the date roll backwards if the hour hand is rolled back, past 12?

Does the hour hand jump in one-hour increments?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The geckota screams seiko. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> The geckota screams seiko.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was my first thought, when I saw that Geckota model. Looks a lot like it fits into the SARB lineup, somewhere.

Again, not a criticism. I like a lot of the SARB designs, especially the 007-011, which seem to have heavily influenced the Geckota. I'd like the Geckota better with different hands, more like the SARB's.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm pretty sure the Alpina and FC are both based on 2836-2 day/date clones.
> 
> Like I said, I wonder if the challenges involved in getting a GMT to work the Rolex's does make an affordable & mechanical GMT a bridge too far.


Alpina are all SW movements as far as I have seen.

Im not sure if its that great of a challenge if ETA is now doing it in sub $1k watches. Im just not sure the demand was there. Too many people just love the look of a GMT with out actually finding the proper function useful.

At least thats what I see in all these affordable facebook groups. Someone asks for a recommendation for an affordable GMT and I try to get into all the different "kinds" and just get told they want one for the looks lol


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Does the seconds hand keep going when the hour hand is adjusted, or is the movement hacked?
> 
> Does the date roll backwards if the hour hand is rolled back, past 12?
> 
> Does the hour hand jump in one-hour increments?


*Does the seconds hand keep going when the hour hand is adjusted, or is the movement hacked?* It keeps running in crown position 1, hacks in position 2

*Does the date roll backwards if the hour hand is rolled back, past 12?* Date follows the 24 hour hand OR can be quick set in the first crown position when turning the crown the opposite direction that quick sets the hour hand.

*Does the hour hand jump in one-hour increments?* It does, but only forward, trying to go backward quick sets the date and doesnt move the hour hand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> *Does the seconds hand keep going when the hour hand is adjusted, or is the movement hacked?* It keeps running in crown position 1, hacks in position 2


Explain it like I know nothing about watches. When you go to adjust the hour hand, does the seconds hand stop, or does it keep going, as it does in the Rolex?

If the movement is hacked, i.e, the seconds hand stops, when you adjust the hour hand, then it's not like the Rolex.



PixlPutterMan said:


> *Does the date roll backwards if the hour hand is rolled back, past 12?* Date follows the 24 hour hand OR can be quick set in the first crown position when turning the crown the opposite direction that quick sets the hour hand.


Explain it like I know nothing about watches. When you roll the hour hand backwards, past midnight, does the date wheel roll backwards, as it does in the Rolex?

If you cant adjust the hour hand backwards, or if the date doesn't roll backwards, then it's not like the Rolex.



PixlPutterMan said:


> *Does the hour hand jump in one-hour increments?* It does, but only forward, trying to go backward quick sets the date and doesnt move the hour hand.


If you cant adjust the hour hand backwards, then it's not like the Rolex.

I don't want to get into a semantics argument here. None of this really matters to me, at all. I so don't care, because I don't own a GMT, and I'm not planning on making or selling a GMT.

My reading of the tea leaves is that people equate the Rolex set of GMT functions with being the "true GMT" operation. That's not *me* saying it, that's just how I read what other people say about it.

Put it this way - if we don't agree that the way Rolex's GMT works is the only "true GMT", and that there's some other set of functions which also makes a "true GMT", then, who gets to define that, and how do they define it?

If, let's just say, people want to say that the 2893-2, with it's jumping GMT hand is also a "true GMT", and other people want to say that the day/date conversion is also a "true GMT", then what's to stop someone from saying that any watch with a 12-hour bezel, which can be used to track a second time zone, isn't also a "true GMT"?

I know, I know, the 12-hour bezel isn't the same, because the others all have a fourth hand. But, you see my point. Beyond the fact that each of the above has a second hour hand, which can be used to track GMT, or just another time zone, the operation seems to be important. "True GMT" seems to mean something more than just having two hour hands, either of which is independently set-able.

The Rolex GMT has several features which make it more useful than the others. The hour hand being independently set-able is useful. The fact that it jumps in 1-hour increments is useful. The fact that it can go forward or backward is useful. The fact that the seconds hand doesn't stop when the hour hand is adjusted is useful. The fact that the date can be rolled backwards, and does so, automatically, when the hour hand is rolled backwards, past midnight, is useful.

I'm not a Rolex fanboy, at all. But I have to give Rolex their due, for making a GMT movement that operates that way, as opposed to simply adding another hour hand, even one that is independently set-able, but not including those other features.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Only a random think, loosely related to the GMT thing...

I see people online calling any watch with an internal bezel and two crowns a "compressor" or "supercompressor". 

Uhm, no, it ain't, unless the case uses the compressor-case technique for water resistance, patented by EPSA, more than 50 years ago. 

I got into a pissing contest with a guy on FB about it, about two years ago. He was really deluded. For him, it had nothing to do with the water resistance, or even the internal bezel operated by a second crown, but instead, it was only about the case shape, which was just insane.

Most internal bezel, dual-crown watches have conventional cases, and are not truly compressors, but most people don't know, and don't care, so they just call any watch with an internal bezel and two crowns a compressor.

Again, I honestly don't care what people call a "True GMT" or a "Compressor", but it would be nice to have some unanimity about these things, for clarity's sake. 

I'm kind of big on clarity. It's one of my things.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

ILiveOnWacker,

Do you see what you've started here?! Look at it! Just look! I hope you're happy young man!


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Explain it like I know nothing about watches. When you go to adjust the hour hand, does the seconds hand stop, or does it keep going, as it does in the Rolex?
> 
> If the movement is hacked, i.e, the seconds hand stops, when you adjust the hour hand, then it's not like the Rolex.
> 
> ...


It seems to me that they used a "caller's GMT" movement where the hour/minute hands are usually hackable and coincide with the date while the GMT hand can be adjusted without stopping the seconds, *BUT* they just changed which hands fit on which part of the pinion. They put the hour hand on where most would put the GMT hand with the same movement and visa versa to make it more like a "traveler's GMT".

I had a Steinhart that had an ETA 2893-2/SW330 "caller's GMT" movement where you could adjust the GMT hand/date in the 2nd position. First position was for handwinding. Third position stopped the seconds hand and allowed you to adjust the hour and minute which the date wheel followed. This Alpina seems to use a similar movement with the GMT hand and hour hand swapped, so now the first position is still handwinding. Second position does the hour hand and date. Third position stops the seconds and allows you to adjust the GMT and minute hand which the date wheel follows. I don't know why it's listed as a different movement when it seems like the same movement with two hands swapped in my opinion.

And, DOC, I think when most people refer to a "TRUE" GMT, they mean "traveler's GMT", but more like a Rolex where the seconds hand continues to move when adjusting the hour hand and the date also follows the hour hand. That's what I mean when I use it at least.

But I guess the "traveler's GMT" doesn't have to be one where the date follows the hour hand instead of GMT (although I prefer it that way). "Traveler's GMT" just means that you can adjust the hour hand without stopping the seconds. Useful for a traveler who moves from one time zone to the next. They don't have to hack the movement and stop the seconds hand to adjust the main time. When the GMT (which usually is set to the home time) is adjusted, the seconds hand does stop though. I think we should refer to one that has the date wheel following the GMT hand as a "pilot's GMT" since it is useful to pilots like yankeexpress mentioned, and we should call the type where the date wheel follows the hour hand the "traveler's GMT".

A "caller's GMT" is where the seconds hand stops when the hour hand is adjusted but will keep running when adjusting the GMT hand. That is useful for people who make calls to others in different time zones, but aren't traveling out of their time zone themselves. That one should remain the way it is.

Maybe Alpina is using a different movement like it lists and not just swapping the hands, but I'm skeptical. It seems a lot easier to just produce different sized hands that fit on different parts of the pinion which would essentially swap the GMT and hour hand on a caller's GMT movement and make it a pilot's GMT.

From now on I'm calling the Rolex GMT style movement a "traveler's GMT", the Alpina GMT style movement a "pilot's GMT", and the Steinhart GMT style movement a "caller's GMT" for the sake of good sense and simplicity.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

And I'm not getting much of a SARB vibe from that Geckota. I feel like it's Geckota's own take on a Rolex GMT/sub style tool watches because of the crown guards and simple case/finish.

The SARB is different to me than most other watches because it has that extra step on the top of the case where it has a brushed finished and polished finish under that beveling.

This is my first post where I'm going to try to insert a picture, so here goes!









Hope that worked!

Also, how can you tell if someone replies to your comment on this forum? I see that it shows a notification for when you get a like or a comment on a post you make, but I don't see where you can view any replies to you comment. This is the most I have used this forum lately for discussion instead of purchasing, and I'm still getting used to it. I used to use Reddit, but got banned from the r/watches and r/watchescirclejerk subs because I pissed off a mod who was acting like a little ..... and blocked my post because "I didn't talk enough about my watches in it (I made a post to see what the community thought of my collection; and had posted my collection 6 months before with details on all of the watches, so it seemed a bit repetitive to write a long comment about each of my 30+ watches again). I think I had a disagreement with him/her in a comment thread months/years prior that they wouldn't let go because I recognized the username. Then I trolled him/her until I got banned from both subs. Hello, ArghZombies! I'm still alive and well! I think you might have and account on here too! 

And where do I find the emojis?!? I feel like I'm posting from an old school Nokia!

Also, Doc, did you have another company/model line started recently in the last few months with some watches that I think used the same or similar cases to your Subs, but the dials were different? I remember getting an email I can't find now about it. I think one of the watches paid homage to the Rolex Explorer. If I'm mistaken, I'm sorry. I was just thinking about it the other day and couldn't remember if it was a memory or something I thought up in my dreams. =)

EDIT: The pic worked! And I guess if you mean the SARB Alpinist model, I can see a similarity in the case with that Geckota minus the extra crown for the Alpinist's compass.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Im not claiming they are just like Rolex.....

You can adjust the hour hands in both open crown positions, but only quick set the 12 hour hand in the first crown position. So I am not clear on which position of hour hand adjustment you are talking about.

The second hand only stops when the crown is fully pulled out. That is also where the GMT hand can be set and since the date wheel is slave to the 24 hour hand, where that is changed as well.

On the Alpina variant, in the first crown position the second hand does not hack. In this position one direction advances the hour and one position quick sets the date. I know is this not like the rolex and one of the reasons I havent bought one.

I figure in a few years most movement makers should have a relatively affordable, proper traveller GMT out. The current ETA model, if my research is correct, fully operates like a Rolex/Omega does. Hack seconds with the crown fully out and in the first position adjust the hour and in both directions.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

True GMT may not be the best term.

Traveller GMT - 12 hour hand quick sets in both direction with out hacking the seconds hand

Office GMT - 24 hour hand quick sets instead

I reference a traveller GMT as a true gmt, that may just be my miss-terminology.

I have no use for an office GMT, so for the time being until I can get an affordable, proper traveller gmt, not a half traveller like the Alpine, I just used a diver with a 12 hour bezel insert for when I travel.

As far as I can tell the least expensive, proper traveller GMT would be a used Omega for around $2k.

Honestly to most travel friendly watch for me would be a no date diver, dual 12 hour hands and a standard dive insert. That will never happen. I know Sinn and Breitling have done a few dual 12 hand watches but thats the same price as the used Omega


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Im not claiming they are just like Rolex.....
> 
> You can adjust the hour hands in both open crown positions, but only quick set the 12 hour hand in the first crown position. So I am not clear on which position of hour hand adjustment you are talking about.
> 
> ...


I didn't say you claimed they were like Rolex if that was a reply to me. I said in a separate response that the Geckota watch reminded me more of a Rolex style case more than a SARB (which most people think of as the SARB033) unless we're talking the SARB Alpinist.

I know certain ETA movements are traveler's GMTs (Omega), but the ETA/SW movements in the Steinhart I owned and listed above were caller's GMT movements and sounded more like the one in the Alpina except with the hour hand and GMT hand functionality swapped. That's what leads me to believe that making a pilot's GMT, it could be as simple as making new hands that would swap where the hour hand and GMT hand fit on the pinion of a caller's GMT. I am not sure if that is the case, but I am saying that would be the easiest way to do it without creating a new movement. The only thing is that the ETA movement listed for the Alpina pilot's GMT is a different number than the ETA movement used in the Steinhart caller's GMT. That's why I wonder if they went through the trouble of actually making a new movement or just changing which hands fit where on the pinion (essentially swapping the hour hand and GMT hand).

My previous reply and comments were for Doc (and yankeexpress); so if your reply wasn't to me, then I'm sorry for misinterpreting it that way, PixlPutterMan. It's hard to see who is replying to who on this forum without quoting them (which takes up a ton of space), and I'm still getting used to it. I also still don't know how to view replies to my own comments if anyone can let me know. Do you just have to come back to old threads and follow up yourself, or am I missing some notification or notification setting?

Thanks!


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> And I'm not getting much of a SARB vibe from that Geckota. I feel like it's Geckota's own take on a Rolex GMT/sub style tool watches because of the crown guards
> EDIT: The pic worked! And I guess if you mean the SARB Alpinist model, I can see a similarity in the case with that Geckota minus the extra crown for the Alpinist's compass.


As Doc said, there are a bunch of different SARB models, so saying "it looks like a SARB" doesn't really mean all that much. The original SARB models with the faceted crystals have lugs so wide they make the Rolex maxi case look well proportioned. The SARB007-11 use the same case as the much more well known SARB033/35 with the stepped brushed/polished lug. Those cases are very rounded overall, and I really don't see much of a connection there.

The 021-25 are very angular and all brushed, very similar to the SARX045 and its ilk. Don't see the connection there either. The SARB027-31 look like cocktail time cases. The 039/41 have cushion cases. The ones after that are retreads of earlier SARB cases, until you get to the SARB047, which is the "land monster." The SARB059-63 use SKX cases. The SARB065 is a cocktail time.

I suppose I can see some specific Alpinist connection, but I still say the lug shape/profile is more Tag Aquaracer than it is Seiko. As for the Geckota handset, that has WAY more in common with the Bremont Supermarine than the Alpinist.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I took a deep dive into GMT watches. The budget version of the Rolex GMT II function is the Seiko 8f56 quartz movement. 

I think people other than Rolex snobs are moving away from the "true" GMT designation to "travelers" and "callers" to distinguish between the movements with an independently adjustable hour hand and those with an independently adjustable GMT hand, respectively. 

The ETA and Selitta movements with of either style seem to maintain their date quick adjust ability... which is one of the reasons I *don't* like them. Inevitably, I'll move the crown in the wrong direction for what I'm trying to do, and either then have to cycle through 12/24hrs worth of hours or 30 days.

If Rolex doesn't have a date quick adjust feature, if it's tied to the jumping hour hand... well then WTF? You either keep it wound or you have to cycle the hour hand through a bunch of rotations to set the date? No date quickset? Huh. Well then that either becomes your daily wear, or you buy a winder. ...or put up with non-quickset date change.

The original (True?) GMT function was a Glycine "purist" style 24hr watch with a 24hr bezel. Then came Rolex with the GMT 1, which featured a 24hr GMT fourth hand slaved to the 12 hr hand, and a 24 hr bezel. Others of the time went the same way, like the Seiko Navigator series, Longines, Zodiac, and probably a few others I don't even know about. 

My Vostok GMT has this same function, with the slaved GMT hand, so I love to call it a "true" GMT function. Like a Rolex...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I gotta admit - I lost interest in the GMT discussion after my last post about it.

I'm pretty sure I've lost interest in the which watch does the Geckota look like discussion now, too.

I'm not planning on making a GMT. I may or may not revisit the idea at some point in the future, if there's a substantial change in the situation, i.e., a new, affordable, good, mechanical GMT movement pops up, and is available, from a Japanese manufacturer, or at least one with a better reliability record than the usual Swiss suspects.

For now, I don't care about GMT's. In fact, I think I prefer the simplicity of a 12-hour bezel, over all other alternatives. 

I definitely don't care, at all, about what Geckota is doing, or what it looks like.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I made the mistake of getting caught up in a "GMT argument" once before. Not happening again. As long as I know what time is displayed on my watch, by whatever hand or bezel, I'm good.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> True GMT may not be the best term.
> 
> Traveller GMT - 12 hour hand quick sets in both direction with out hacking the seconds hand
> 
> ...


And I agree with you here. "True" GMT is a term that isn't really defined, but many refer to the Rolex style traveler's GMT as a "true" GMT.

My only changes to what you said would be:

Traveller GMT - 12 hour hand quick sets in both direction without hacking the seconds hand and the date follows the 12 hour hand.

Office GMT - GMT (24 hour) hand quick sets in both direction without hacking the seconds hand but the date still follows the 12 hour hand.

Pilot GMT - 12 hour hand quick sets in both direction without hacking the seconds hand but the date follows the GMT (24 hour) hand. This is based on what was listed by yankeexpress concerning the Alpina GMTs though. I am not a pilot, but I'm sure it's got to be useful to somebody.

I have a great way of telling the time difference easily without any extra complication that works for me; a regular dive watch (date or no date if you don't want the function) with a 12 or 24 hour bezel. Since I don't really contact anywhere more than 12 hours away in either direction, I modded one of my Orient divers to have a 12 hour bezel that I set the time difference with by placing the number for however many hours we are separated at the top of the bezel. This is less complicated for me than using a caller's GMT. I used to put my Steinhart GMT on to remind myself to call someone in another time zone when I needed to, but now I just adjust the bezel on my Orient to remind myself if I need to make a call to another time zone. I also like that Doc has new NTH subs with the 12 hour bezel function since I find it just as useful if not more than a regular diver's bezel. I don't think this would be a solution for what you're looking for though, PixlPutterMan.

And I know it's not really affordable, but have any of you checked out the Omega AT Good Planet 231.90.39.21.04.001? Since we're on the topic of traveler's watches, it's a cool watch without a GMT hand since the hour hand can be adjusted forwards or backwards without stopping the seconds hand. The only thing is the date is not quickset because of this. It follows the hour hand of course; but to change the date, you need to rotate the hour hand 24 clicks (in either direction) for each day. Still pretty cool though!

I also have a Bucherer I inherited that uses (I believe) an ETA 251.262 which is a quartz chronograph movement. This watch also does not have a quickset date or GMT/24 hour hand either, but the first position allows you to change the hour hand forwards or backwards without stopping the seconds hand which is perfect for travelers. The date follows the hour hand of course the same way the Omega I listed above does. The second position also stops the seconds just like the Omega listed above does and allows you to adjust the time regularly (move the minute hand and hour hands like any other watch does which also changes the date after rotating through 24 hours).

I agree that Omega is probably the cheapest way to get a mechanical traveler's GMT right now.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I gotta admit - I lost interest in the GMT discussion after my last post about it.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've lost interest in the which watch does the Geckota look like discussion now, too.
> 
> ...


I think when I was about a month into WUS and watches in general, I was all, like, "Man, I hope someday Doc does a bronze GMT sub!"

Since then I have been savagely disabused of this notion, and besides, not anywhere near thrilled with any of the budget movements that might be used in such a thing. And I got a bronze watch, so check that one off the list, too.

However, to circle round back from something that caught my attention from before the Geckota/GMT tangents...

Individual sale of bezel inserts? Any idea when that's happening? Direct through NTH, with advance announcement via NTH newsletter? Where should I be paying attention to this so I don't miss out?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

So my surprise NTH selection arrives tomorrow......expect many pictures.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> I made the mistake of getting caught up in a "GMT argument" once before. Not happening again. As long as I know what time is displayed on my watch, by whatever hand or bezel, I'm good.


Pfft. What do you know?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

GMT... global mission timer?


Too complicated. I’m still surprised when I discover bidirectional bezels... What an odd feature... 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I think when I was about a month into WUS and watches in general, I was all, like, "Man, I hope someday Doc does a bronze GMT sub!"
> 
> Since then I have been savagely disabused of this notion, and besides, not anywhere near thrilled with any of the budget movements that might be used in such a thing. And I got a bronze watch, so check that one off the list, too.
> 
> ...


It's in the works. We're close, probably within a few weeks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> GMT... global mission timer?
> 
> Too complicated. I'm still surprised when I discover bidirectional bezels... What an odd feature...
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Don't even get me started.

When we did the Phantoms, with a bi-directional, 12-hour bezel, I caught $hlt because they weren't uni-directional (don't ask me why).

When we revealed the first NTH Subs with 12 hour bezels, I caught $hlt from a few people because they're not bi-directional. Apparently it's too much trouble to spin the bezel almost all the way around, one time.

I tried to explain the reasons why, but quickly lost energy and patience. I get tired trying to explain things to people who think they know more about my product than I do.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Don't even get me started.
> 
> When we did the Phantoms, with a bi-directional, 12-hour bezel, I caught $hlt because they weren't uni-directional (don't ask me why).
> 
> ...


Even the one bi bezel I have, I am so used to uni, that it never entered into my head to spin it the other...

Plus it's a 12hr bezel, the one is to the right of twelve...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Don't even get me started.
> 
> When we did the Phantoms, with a bi-directional, 12-hour bezel, I caught $hlt because they weren't uni-directional (don't ask me why).
> 
> ...


Is it weird that I initially bought a Phantom because of the 12 hour bezel (and date placement)? I call it: my 4/20 69 watch b-)









I didn't know the reason for the bidirectional bezel until later to tell you the truth. I was just getting into watches at the time, but really like the way it looked.



docvail said:


> It's in the works. We're close, probably within a few weeks.


Doc, I'm guessing from your other previous replies that what's in the works and should be seen in the next few weeks are 12 hour bezels and not bronze GMT models; correct? :-d Those would be unidirectional and made to pop onto the NTH Subs, right?

Also since I guess you didn't see it before in my other replies, did you have another company or model line out in the last few months with a Rolex Explorer style dial? I thought I remembered getting an email, but cannot find it anymore for the life of me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> Is it weird that I initially bought a Phantom because of the 12 hour bezel (and date placement)? I call it: my 4/20 69 watch b-)


It would only be weird if you didn't.



mgp123 said:


> Doc, I'm guessing from your other previous replies that what's in the works and should be seen in the next few weeks are 12 hour bezels and not bronze GMT models; correct? :-d Those would be unidirectional and made to pop onto the NTH Subs, right?


Uhm...what?

One of us is completely lost here.

I don't have anything like that in the works. Nothing with a 12 hour bezel, unless you mean the next round of DevilRays, which have a dual-scale bezel (one half of which is a 12-hour scale). Definitely not a bronze GMT. Not bronze. Not GMT.



mgp123 said:


> Also since I guess you didn't see it before in my other replies, did you have another company or model line out in the last few months with a Rolex Explorer style dial? I thought I remembered getting an email, but cannot find it anymore for the life of me.


Have you looked at our website? The in-stock page shows every model in-stock. I'm guessing you mean the Oberon?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mgp123 said:


> I call it: my 4/20 69 watch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Uhm...what?
> 
> One of us is completely lost here.
> 
> ...


The bronze GMT was a bad joke referencing mconlonx's comment that you replied to.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "It's in the works. We're close, probably within a few weeks." though and thought you meant you were putting out bezel inserts for sale since that's what the last part of his comment talked about. I figured they would be the 12 hour bezels/bezel inserts for the Subs like the Vanguard and Scorpene Nomad have, but I must have misinterpreted it (but I do think that would be dope to do still)!

It's Rusty's new Atticus brand that I was thinking of before too. Just saw it on your blog again now!


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Uhm...what?
> 
> One of us is completely lost here.
> 
> I don't have anything like that in the works. Nothing with a 12 hour bezel, unless you mean the next round of DevilRays, which have a dual-scale bezel (one half of which is a 12-hour scale). Definitely not a bronze GMT. Not bronze. Not GMT.


It's possible to misread your response to that question as a sarcastic response to the bronze GMT Sub, instead of a genuine response to the bezel inserts. Ie - hey Doc, when will that Sub with the PVD case, ceramic bezel, and perpetual calendar/chrono be ready?

Doc: Any minute now.


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> ILiveOnWacker,
> 
> Do you see what you've started here?! Look at it! Just look! I hope you're happy young man!


I'm not going to lie....I'm pretty happy about how this turned out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Gave myself another idea. NTH Barracuda Grand Complication. Enjoying the clone stamp tool. NTH logo and everything.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I'm not going to lie....I'm pretty happy about how this turned out.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> The bronze GMT was a bad joke referencing mconlonx's comment that you replied to.
> 
> I wasn't sure what you meant by "It's in the works. We're close, probably within a few weeks." though and thought you meant you were putting out bezel inserts for sale since that's what the last part of his comment talked about. I figured they would be the 12 hour bezels/bezel inserts for the Subs like the Vanguard and Scorpene Nomad have, but I must have misinterpreted it (but I do think that would be dope to do still)!
> 
> It's Rusty's new Atticus brand that I was thinking of before too. Just saw it on your blog again now!


We're going to have replacement inserts for sale on the website. We're not "making new" inserts. The replacement inserts will just be for models we've already produced, some of which had 12-hour bezels.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> It's possible to misread your response to that question as a sarcastic response to the bronze GMT Sub, instead of a genuine response to the bezel inserts. Ie - hey Doc, when will that Sub with the PVD case, ceramic bezel, and perpetual calendar/chrono be ready?
> 
> Doc: Any minute now.


Uhm...what?

One of us is completely lost here.

Let me rephrase. I'm completely lost here.

Let's please let this line of discussion go. Or at least, y'all make the questions direct, I'll give y'all a direct answer.

We just invested multiple pages of posts in a tedious topic, which is completely irrelevant in this thread. Getting cute with me about it just makes it less likely you'll get the response you want. My interest in "cute" decreases with each passing comment about something completely irrelevant (like bronze, GMT's, Geckota, etc).

Hah-hah? No, not really. At this point, it's just more blah-blah. Let's move on, please.

I'm not doing anything in bronze, nor a GMT, and the inserts aren't new, just replacement inserts. We've always had them, we just never made them available for purchase on demand, which is what we'll be doing, soon enough.

I got a lot of $hlt to do here, guys. The bezel inserts and nearly new section are nowhere near my top priority. They're appendices to the main business, and if they become a bigger distraction than they're worth, I'll cut them out, like an inflamed appendix.

I think I caught some implied question, somewhere in the last page or two, about whether or not we'll be announcing it in our newsletter. Yes, we will be, just like we will when we put the nearly new watches up for sale. When has a lack of communication ever been my Achilles' heel?

If I say something is going to happen, it's going to happen, soon enough, when we're prepared for it to happen. When it happens, I'll make every effort to make everyone aware of it. Asking me about it every 2-3 days won't make it happen any sooner. If anything, it just slows me down, and makes me regret I mentioned it at all.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> We're going to have replacement inserts for sale on the website. We're not "making new" inserts. The replacement inserts will just be for models we've already produced, some of which had 12-hour bezels.





docvail said:


> Uhm...what?
> 
> One of us is completely lost here.
> 
> ...


I think that finally answers everyone's questions directly.

Stay busy, Doc. And in the future when you're very busy like you are now, DON'T START A NEW NTH THREAD! ;-)


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm only aware that people have complained about the date change in the Tudor, but I don't know what the complaint is, specifically.


When they fail the mode of failure is the date jumps more than one day at the time. If you are curious (I am sure you aren't) I did a post in the date problem thread in the Rolex Tudor sub-forum showing the movement and what I am 99% sure is the issue. It is either too much torque in the spring that effects the instantaneous date change or a date wheel retention spring with too little pressure or a combination of the two. I am sure Tudor knows the problem but is having trouble fixing it without a major redesign.



> When you say others have GMT's that function the way Rolex's does, are we talking affordable movements, or mostly in the Rolex/Omega range, and higher (aside from the recent development of ETA's GMT's appearing in lower-end brands)?


The two I would consider affordable (under 2K retail) have been discussed. The Alpine and FC have independent hour hands that jump an hour at the time with the seconds hand running but can only be set forward and can't run the date back obviously. So neither has the full functions of the Rolex GMT movements. The ones like Omega that do have the full Rolex feature set are priced above 2K and in most cases the retail is within the Omega/Rolex range.

While I gather you have no interest in producing a GMT watch if you ever do the dial should be bi-directional (I understand the unidirectional logic of the 12hr bezel diver) and it should have either 48 or even 96 detents. Some simply use 24 but 48 allows you to set it for the 30 minute time zones and 96 means it can be used in even the 15 minute time zones so as to have full time zone compatibility.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ilitig8 said:


> When they fail the mode of failure is the date jumps more than one day at the time. If you are curious (I am sure you aren't) I did a post in the date problem thread in the Rolex Tudor sub-forum showing the movement and what I am 99% sure is the issue. It is either too much torque in the spring that effects the instantaneous date change or a date wheel retention spring with too little pressure or a combination of the two. I am sure Tudor knows the problem but is having trouble fixing it without a major redesign.
> 
> The two I would consider affordable (under 2K retail) have been discussed. The Alpine and FC have independent hour hands that jump an hour at the time with the seconds hand running but can only be set forward and can't run the date back obviously. So neither has the full functions of the Rolex GMT movements. The ones like Omega that do have the full Rolex feature set are priced above 2K and in most cases the retail is within the Omega/Rolex range.
> 
> While I gather you have no interest in producing a GMT watch if you ever do the dial should be bi-directional (I understand the unidirectional logic of the 12hr bezel diver) and it should have either 48 or even 96 detents. Some simply use 24 but 48 allows you to set it for the 30 minute time zones and 96 means it can be used in even the 15 minute time zones so as to have full time zone compatibility.


I lied.

I actually found some of the discussion of the Alpina/FC GMT's mildly interesting, mostly because swapping the position of the main hour hand and the GMT hand on the pinion seems like such an obvious and elegant solution, but I doubt it's one I'd ever have thought of, because the obvious and elegant solutions too often elude me.

I can't claim the unidirectional 12 hour bezel on the NTH Subs is "logical". I think bi-directional would in fact be more logical, and surely preferable. The plain fact is that the case was designed as a diver, with a unidirectional bezel. Making the bezel bi-directional would require a re-tooling for that part, which probably sounds like no big deal, and by itself, it really isn't, but...

The problem is that once installed on the case, the bezel isn't meant to be removed. And, without an insert in place, that case would be visually indistinguishable from (but not interchangeable with) the others. It would create all sorts of issues during assembly and QC, as well as problems for us, when it comes to stocking replacement cases and doing post-sale support. It's a potential nightmare in the making.

Instead, we make one version of the case, and if you want your 12-hour bezel to be bi-directional, go buy some other watch, because ours is unidirectional.

If I were to make a pure GMT, with a rotating bezel, but not using the same case we were using for a diver, I'd do what I could to get 96 clicks in a bi-directional bezel. If we couldn't get 96, I'd go for 48, which seems better than 24, certainly.

Believe it or not, I don't think it's just as easy as telling the factory to make it the way we want it. When we were developing the Phantom, I was told that the diameter of the bezel is a limiting factor when it comes to how many clicks it has, when combined with whether it's bi-directional or uni-directional.

Don't ask me to explain what I just typed. I honestly can't. I don't know enough about it to explain it, and never cared enough to ask more about it, so that I could explain it. All I can tell anyone is that there's a reason you sometimes see diving bezels with 90 clicks, and it's not because 90 clicks is a happy medium between 60 and 120.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Off the cuff guess... a crap ton of clicks requires a crap ton of teeth. There may be a limit on how small you can make the teeth. So may need a big old shark jaw to fit all of them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

docvail said:


> I can't claim the unidirectional 12 hour bezel on the NTH Subs is "logical". I think bi-directional would in fact be more logical, and surely preferable. The plain fact is that the case was designed as a diver, with a unidirectional bezel. Making the bezel bi-directional would require a re-tooling for that part, which probably sounds like no big deal, and by itself, it really isn't, but...


I will maintain the logic of a unidirectional bezel (for the sake of your watch) because by being unidirectional it still has an important dive watch feature retained, despite the fact early Submariners were bi-directional thanks for Blancpain outsmarting them.

On the subject of GMT bezels 48 clicks is actually perfect unless you have clusters of customers (or ones that regularly visit) Nepal, the Chatham Islands or the Australian Central Western Time Zone.

One other note about bezels while I have no idea how hard it is to incorporate the more substantial detent at 12 o'clock the Pelagos has it a great little feature. It is easy to return to zero even without looking and it is far less likely to get moved off zero by that invisible hand that loves to move bezels one click off when you aren't looking, much to the chagrin of those of use who suffer from watch bezel OCD.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Off the cuff guess... a crap ton of clicks requires a crap ton of teeth. There may be a limit on how small you can make the teeth. So may need a big old shark jaw to fit all of them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bezel diameter and size of the teeth may have something to do with it, but whether the bezel is bi- or uni-directional apparently has something to do with as well.

With the Phantom, I seem to recall some very brief discussion of the mechanisms and parts involved. I wish I could remember it better, but we're talking about discussions I had with my vendors five years ago.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Not sure if I should post it since I don't know if it's been posted already here and (as Doc stated before) NTH isn't planning on making a GMT watch at the moment, but this thread goes over a bunch of different GMT watches (pilot, caller, traveler) and their movements for whoever is interested and has the time. There is a decent amount of squabbling in it over the definition of a "true GMT" watch which seems stupid since they are all more of opinions, but...THAT'S THE INTERNET! :roll:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ilitig8 said:


> I will maintain the logic of a unidirectional bezel (for the sake of your watch) because by being unidirectional it still has an important dive watch feature retained, despite the fact early Submariners were bi-directional thanks for Blancpain outsmarting them.


Funny you mention it. I was fiddling with a vintage Rolex Submariner bezel in my watchmaker's shop recently. Not only was it bi-directional, it was zero clicks.

No clicks at all. Only a touch more friction than your typical Vostok Scuba Dude. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

Technically, I suppose someone could still use a 12-hour bezel for timing decomp stops during a dive. But practically, it seems like watch-geeks as a group don't always view these things logically (or maybe I should say "reasonably"). Many seem to be overly fixated on certain "cardinal sin" types of things, like phantom date change crowns, uni-directional 12-hour bezels, and other bugaboos.

Case in point...



ilitig8 said:


> On the subject of GMT bezels 48 clicks is actually perfect unless you have clusters of customers (or ones that regularly visit) Nepal, the Chatham Islands or the Australian Central Western Time Zone.


See, this is what I'm talking about.

Logically, I know that the vast majority of my customers are never going to need any more than 48 clicks on a GMT. In fact most probably wouldn't even need more than 24.

But I know as sure as I breath that someone will ask how many clicks the GMT has, start whinging when they hear it's less than 96, never stop whinging, and next thing we know, it'll be a three-page debate about whether or not this otherwise lovely GMT is worth buying, if its bezel doesn't have the "correct" number of clicks.

My motivation isn't really to serve the extremely rare customer who actually might travel to Nepal, the Chatham Islands, or the ACWTZ. My motivation is just to avoid the excruciating agony of having to suffer through that tedious discussion of how many clicks my GMT bezel ought to have, because three places in the world that 99.99% of watch-geeks will never visit have to offset their time zone by 15 minutes.

Just kill me now.



ilitig8 said:


> One other note about bezels while I have no idea how hard it is to incorporate the more substantial detent at 12 o'clock the Pelagos has it a great little feature. It is easy to return to zero even without looking and it is far less likely to get moved off zero by that invisible hand that loves to move bezels one click off when you aren't looking, much to the chagrin of those of use who suffer from watch bezel OCD.


Funny you mention that. @UVAlaw2005 recently acquired a Pelagos, and complimented that exact feature when I asked him about it.

Part of me is curious enough to look into it.

Another part of me already dreads reading comments from people saying, "Ah-hah! See that? He's knocking off Tudor again!"

I have no idea if the story is true, but I once saw someone claim that the former owner of now-defunct microbrand Orsa quit making watches because he got tired of watch geeks and all their bull$hlt.

Some days, I know that feel.


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## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

For a 12 hour bezel.. I’d like a bi-directional 12 click. I’d never use the half hour for a 12 hour bezel. Has anyone ever seen one of these?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tim_herremans said:


> For a 12 hour bezel.. I'd like a bi-directional 12 click. I'd never use the half hour for a 12 hour bezel. Has anyone ever seen one of these?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe 6 months ago, I was in our local Tourneau, and checked out a Panerai Submersible. I'm pretty sure it was 12-clicks.

It wasn't a 12-hour bezel. It was a 60-minute count-up bezel, but still, 12 clicks, which makes no sense.

I'm positive it had the worst bezel action I've ever felt this side of a Vostok Scuba Dude, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Like, laughably, criminally, inexplicably, horrendously cheap-feeling, considering what those things cost. I was dumbstruck.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm positive it had the worst bezel action I've ever felt this side of a Vostok Scuba Dude, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
> 
> Like, laughably, criminally, inexplicably, horrendously cheap-feeling, considering what those things cost. I was dumbstruck.


Panerai is weird. They have insane engineering prowess when they feel like using it, (see the P.3001/C movement) and yet they also make the Luminor Due, which has their famous locking crown, and yet has less water resistance than a typical dress watch.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Elshan Tang caught some grief over the 60 click bi-directional bezel he did on the Zelos GMT.

The discontinued Christopher Ward GMT (Bell & Ross homage) was two things away from where it needed for me to buy one - vintage lume and uni-directional bezel.

I had a Seiko GMT with a *72 click* bi-directional bezel. WTF?

My Vostok GMT has the standard no-click, friction bezel, which seems perfecly in character Russian passive-aggressive. Hint: many watches with click detente, uni-directional action can be easily modded to bi-directional, no click function simply by removing the detente spring and possibly introducing a friction element. Just sayin'...

Anyway, here's an NTH and a chicken.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

What about a bezel with Alexa so I can just say "Alexa, rotate back 3 hours"?


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

So NTH is making bronze sarb homage with a bi directional bezel and a true GMT movement. 

AWESOME 👍

Glad I have this (and a couple others) to hold me over until release day


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> What about a bezel with Alexa so I can just say "Alexa, rotate back 3 hours"?


Man, do I hate those things, both Siri and Alexa. I like to piss them off like I have regular women and troll them by calling them by the wrong names. It actually works. Try calling Alexa "Siri" and visa versa. The robot women get mad. :-d

And while I hate Google just as much for all of their greedy spying, it's just not as much fun. I guess instead of "Ok, Google" I can start saying "Ok, Bezos". Might have to try that out and see what it does.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> So NTH is making bronze sarb homage with a bi directional bezel and a true GMT movement.
> 
> AWESOME ?
> 
> Glad I have this (and a couple others) to hold me over until release day


Close! It's going to have a 38mm size with 240 click smart bezel. Don't forget that part! ;-)


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mgp123 said:


> Close! It's going to have a 38mm size with 240 click smart bezel. Don't forget that part! ;-)


Don't forget the wireless charging and removable battery.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Hope these are allowed in the NTH forum.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Elshan Tang caught some grief over the 60 click bi-directional bezel he did on the Zelos GMT.
> 
> The discontinued Christopher Ward GMT (Bell & Ross homage) was two things away from where it needed for me to buy one - vintage lume and uni-directional bezel.
> 
> ...


Every time I see this, it makes me want to have a Nomad. That sort of bezel is what you really need instead of the inane discussions about true GMT. Reading this discussion, I can entirely understand Doc's reaction.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

So, a friction bezel would be, in fact, infinite clicks.

When will there be a 7 click GMT countdown clockwise unidirectional bezel? 

Asking for a friend.. 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> Don't forget the wireless charging and removable battery.


Cool, a battery powered rotor 9015. Can Doc make the rotor click? bi-directional clicks??


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## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gave myself another idea. NTH Barracuda Grand Complication. Enjoying the clone stamp tool. NTH logo and everything.
> 
> View attachment 15034763





mconlonx said:


> Elshan Tang caught some grief over the 60 click bi-directional bezel he did on the Zelos GMT.
> 
> The discontinued Christopher Ward GMT (Bell & Ross homage) was two things away from where it needed for me to buy one - vintage lume and uni-directional bezel.
> 
> I had a Seiko GMT with a *72 click* bi-directional bezel. WTF?


72 click makes sense for a GMT bezel. 6 clicks every 5 minutes allows the the bezel to show half-hour time zones (exactly between each hour marker) and the hour time zones. Yeah, you don't get to line up with every minute, but the point of the bezel is to show another time zone, not to line up with the minute markers.


> ...Anyway, here's an NTH and a chicken.
> 
> View attachment 15035547


Nice chicken. Cool watch, too, but for the unidirectional bezel.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Elshan Tang caught some grief over the 60 click bi-directional bezel he did on the Zelos GMT...


As we were discussing this last night, it occurred to me that the 60-click bezel on the Phantom may have been smarter if we'd made it a 24, 48, or 96 click, but I honestly didn't think about it at the time. It was a rookie mistake on my part. That was my first bi-directional, 12-hour bezel.

I don't want to play Monday Morning Quarterback by criticizing another brand-owner's execution. Elshan seems pretty sharp, in my observation. Perhaps there was some logic behind it, or a reasonable explanation stemming from production limitations.

Maybe it's as simple as the fact that the watch was also a diver (was it? I don't know), and the 60-click bezel, while not ideal for a GMT, keeps the bezel functional for timing decomp stops during a dive.



mconlonx said:


> Hint: many watches with click detente, uni-directional action can be easily modded to bi-directional, no click function simply by removing the detente spring and possibly introducing a friction element. Just sayin'...


Yeeeeaaahhhhh....here's the thing about that, with our watches (specifically, the Subs)...you don't want to do that.

The bezel assembly is held onto the mid-case by way of two mechanisms. There's a wire retention ring (usually/ideally, 8-sided) crammed under the bezel insert. The mid-case has a ledge cut into it. When the bezel assembly gets pressed down onto the mid-case, that ring gets wedged under that bezel retention ledge.

With the vast majority of NTH Subs we've produced, that ledge was cut at a very sharp 90-degree angle, and that 8-sided retention ring has a lot of contact with the surface under that ledge.

If you were to try prying that bezel ring off the mid-case, in order to remove the click spring (or the bezel insert), using a proper bezel removal tool (like the "Pac-Man" tool from Bergeon), you'll never get it off. Trust me. You could have gorilla strength That bezel ring isn't coming off that way. If you use a bladed tool, you'll probably damage the mid-case.

If you try to pry it off asymmetrically, like with a case knife (the way you can with a Seiko or Vostok, and some other brands' bezels), in addition to possibly damaging the mid-case, there's a very high likelihood you'll end up warping the bezel ring. You may get it off, but you won't be able to get it to go back on, sit level, and turn.

Once assembled, the bezel ring of the NTH Subs isn't meant to be removed.

Sometime last year, we discovered that our case supplier had made a change to the case design. With some of the cases, that retention ledge was cut at a more oblique angle, so that the bezel ring could be removed, fairly easily, without damaging it or the mid-case.

The problem we found was that with some of them, the bezel came off TOO easily, especially if they used a different retention ring (some had 9 sides, some had more, 10-12), one with more but shorter sides (so not as much contact with the case surface). We've had to go back and replace some of those cases for guys who got those watches, before we realized what was happening.

Needless to say, I wasn't pleased that they changed the case design without discussing it with me. I think I know why it happened (I'll explain below).

Rather than experimenting with different cut angles and retention ring combinations, trying to find the one which gave us the "Goldilocks" degree of bezel remove-ability (not too much, not too little), and trusting that we'd get that exact angle and ring from then on, we asked the case vendor to go back to cutting the cases at a right angle, and using the 8-sided bezel retention ring.

We'd rather not risk more problems, and we're okay with a bezel ring that isn't meant to be removed from the mid-case, once installed.

So, bottom line - don't just pry the bezel ring off your NTH Sub.

---

Explanation for how it happened, and how people can replace their bezel inserts...

The inserts are held in place with 2-sided adhesive. Prior to that change to the mid-case, getting an insert out was actually fairly easy. We'd loosen the crown (to let heat out), then heat the bezel using a heat gun, to loosen the adhesive, and just pry the insert out by running an x-acto knife around it's inner-perimeter, by the crystal.

Boom, they'd pop right out, with no dis-assembly of the case needed.

(This method could also be used to nudge slightly mis-aligned inserts into better alignment, if you're bothered by less than 100% perfectly-aligned bezels - be sure to loosen the crown first, so you don't bake the movement, and pop the crystal out).

At some point, we found we couldn't do that any more, or at least not as easily. We'd break the blade trying. Dan compared an old replacement insert we had with a new replacement insert, and found that the adhesive strip was marginally wider on the new ones. Just that little extra adhesive made the inserts impossible to remove that way.

Instead, we'd have to completely disassemble the watch, to include popping the crystal out, and push the bezel inset out from the under-side. He'd then have to completely re-assemble the watch, pressure-test it, and install the new insert. What was once a five-minute job using a heat gun and an x-acto knife now took about an hour, and required actual watchmaking tools (a crystal press, pressure-tester, etc).

When I told my vendor what we were doing, my vendor insisted that we should be able to simply pry the bezel ring off with a case-knife. I assured him that because of how the case was assembled, we couldn't, and that would destroy the ring and/or case.

This is where the "I can't believe we're this stupid" happened.

Don't ask me to explain why they didn't go back to the original-width adhesive, which would have immediately solved our problem. Instead, I *think* what happened was that my vendor talked about it with the case supplier, and the case supplier said they could solve the issue by making the bezel easier to remove from the case.

The next release, we got a new case and bezel retention ring, but didn't realize it until later, after we'd shipped just about all of those watches. To this day, we don't know exactly when they made the change, or how many watches were affected.

If you haven't noticed anything, and your bezel hasn't popped off, you're probably good. If you had a problem, you'd probably know it by now, and we'd have replaced your case.

So...the upshot here...

Depending on when your NTH Sub was made, your insert may be easy to get out, or damned near impossible. And, your bezel may be easy to pop off the case (allowing you to get the insert out easily), or it may be damned near impossible.

With few exceptions, we have no way at all to know whether or not your insert has the original-width adhesive, or the new, strong adhesive. Nor do we know if your watch's bezel is impossible to remove, or easy enough.

If you want to replace your bezel insert, the only thing we can do is give you instructions on how to get it out. If that doesn't work, then your case requires dis-assembly to do it. We can do that for you (and charge for the service), or you can have a watchmaker do it.

If you destroy your case trying to replace the bezel (or convert your Sub to a no-click bi-directional), we'll sell you a new case, including pre-installed crystal, and caseback. But it won't be cheap.

This is why I urge people not to modify their NTH Subs.

Not everyone listens. Some guys think they know more about my product than I do.

Those guys are wrong.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Didn't you announce earlier that you're going to start selling bezel inserts? 

My plan was to buy an Amphion Modern on the secondary market & replace the bezel insert with a Nacken style (no minute markers). But if this *might* not be possible, it's kind of a dumb plan ...


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Hey Doc.....is this normal from shipping?


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> Hey Doc.....is this normal from shipping?


I would reach out to them via support on the NTH site.
Also read the wot few posts above, it talks about this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I would reach out to them via support on the NTH site.
> Also read the wot few posts above, it talks about this.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Will do, thanks. Quite the disappointment to open the package and that is what I found. I do not blame NTH, Doc, John.....it's an anomaly. Spoke to John and he said a batch of cases for the Santa Cruz and one other model had some concerns with the bezel attaching to the lip on the case and that may have been the issue.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Dec1968 said:


> DuckaDiesel said:
> 
> 
> > I would reach out to them via support on the NTH site.
> ...


What are the odds?! As bezels and them popping off is being discussed.... yours arrives with that very problem. Crazy.

Anyways, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I can only imagine the let down. Hope it doesnt deter you from future purchases.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> Will do, thanks. Quite the disappointment to open the package and that is what I found. I do not blame NTH, Doc, John.....it's an anomaly. Spoke to John and he said a batch of cases for the Santa Cruz and one other model had some concerns with the bezel attaching to the lip on the case and that may have been the issue.


Contact John to arrange a return.

FWIW - when we discovered the issue with the bezels last year, I contacted all my retailers, asking them to check their inventory. John sent all (100%) of his Santa Cruz pieces back to us, and we replaced all the cases.

I'd like for Dan to see that one, and get to the bottom of this.



TheBearded said:


> What are the odds?! As bezels and them popping off is being discussed.... yours arrives with that very problem. Crazy.
> 
> Anyways, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I can only imagine the let down. Hope it doesnt deter you from future purchases.


The timing is quite coincidental.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

FWIW, my Vintage Gilt Barracuda version 2.0 lost it's bezel while on my wrist (never did find it) and NTH fixed it pronto (I guess a new case in addition to new bezel and insert) and even included a free new style bracelet, as I had returned the flawed watch sans bracelet.



Photo of the original case profile showing the "obligue angle ledge" mentioned earlier by Doc.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Waiting for my bezel to launch. Feeling left out on this.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Dec1968 said:


> Hey Doc.....is this normal from shipping?


Bummer, I know, but THAT is a beautiful watch. Congrats! It'll be worth the wait.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Hey Doc.....is this normal from shipping?


Hey, I'm in the same town as you.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Avo said:


> Didn't you announce earlier that you're going to start selling bezel inserts?
> 
> My plan was to buy an Amphion Modern on the secondary market & replace the bezel insert with a Nacken style (no minute markers). But if this *might* not be possible, it's kind of a dumb plan ...


It can still be done, regardless of which production version. Assuming the replacement bezel insert you want is available, that is. NTH is not suddenly going to become Namoki. It just might not be possible to DIY. If it were me, I'd have a watchmaker do it regardless. It just depends on how much work that watchmaker is in for.


----------



## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

_"Still Fly" by Big Tymers plays_

"Wassup, Fresh? It's our turn, baby."









Ain't got no job, but I stay shaaaarp.

*Haven't had a single problem with any of them yet either!*

Can't pay my rent, cause all my money's spent. But that's ok, cause I'm Still Flyyy.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Related. I once had an idiotic idea to swap bezels on two Deep Blue V1 Master 1000s, they use similar retention rings to lock (hence lock ring) seat the bezels. It’s crown threads had stripped. So, not a huge loss... but...

I now have one less watch. Ended up with the red mist paired with the ever popular, moronic determination, post stabbing quite a hole in my hand from attempting to operate a case knife(as you tube directed me)

Hammer and chisel works for removal. 

Lesson: 

rage is not a good companion while amateur watch fitting.

Also, Seiko SKX.

Also, trained professionals.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Contact John to arrange a return.
> 
> FWIW - when we discovered the issue with the bezels last year, I contacted all my retailers, asking them to check their inventory. John sent all (100%) of his Santa Cruz pieces back to us, and we replaced all the cases.
> 
> ...


I did. John is more than amazing and accommodating. It's getting shipped back today.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Crazy blues...


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> Hey, I'm in the same town as you.


Really? Once the Mexican Beer Virus is over, let's go grab a Mexican Beer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> FWIW, my Vintage Gilt Barracuda version 2.0 lost it's bezel while on my wrist (never did find it) and NTH fixed it pronto (I guess a new case in addition to new bezel and insert) and even included a free new style bracelet, as I had returned the flawed watch sans bracelet.
> 
> 
> 
> Photo of the original case profile showing the "obligue angle ledge" mentioned earlier by Doc.


If we gave you a free bracelet, that was a mistake we made, not intentional.

It does explain why my bracelet inventory numbers were off by one piece, though, so thanks for letting us know.


----------



## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

docvail said:


> Maybe 6 months ago, I was in our local Tourneau, and checked out a Panerai Submersible. I'm pretty sure it was 12-clicks.
> 
> It wasn't a 12-hour bezel. It was a 60-minute count-up bezel, but still, 12 clicks, which makes no sense.
> 
> ...


All Panerai Submersibles have 60 click bezels and the ones I have owned have been very solid (2 current, 4 in the past and dozens played with). That being said early serials of the 024 and 243 had a part known for excessive wear and was replaced free of charge as a stand-alone service or when any of them were returned to Panerai for a full service. Since none of them ever had a 12 click bezel my guess is you encountered one of the early 024s or 243s that were seriously worn or another that was broken in some fashion.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

92gli said:


> Crazy blues...


Quit posting that dang watch! You are going to make my wallet lighter.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> Quit posting that dang watch! You are going to make my wallet lighter.


Can't help it. It has 20 different looks &#55357;&#56397;


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Really? Once the Mexican Beer Virus is over, let's go grab a Mexican Beer.


Sounds good. Meet up at the Little Elm Crafthouse. Oh, and we have monthly GTG at The Thirsty Growler as well (though we're just doing it over Zoom for now).

WUS Thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/official-dfw-wis-meetup-thread-2nd-saturday-every-month-4836267.html
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/732398827117321


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ilitig8 said:


> All Panerai Submersibles have 60 click bezels and the ones I have owned have been very solid (2 current, 4 in the past and dozens played with). That being said early serials of the 024 and 243 had a part known for excessive wear and was replaced free of charge as a stand-alone service or when any of them were returned to Panerai for a full service. Since none of them ever had a 12 click bezel my guess is you encountered one of the early 024s or 243s that were seriously worn or another that was broken in some fashion.


I'll add the possibility that my memory may not be entirely accurate, at least as far as the click count goes. It was at least six months ago, and as good as my memory usually is, it's not infallbible.

I do seem to recall thinking about how useless the bezel would be for timing anything down to the minute. I am pretty sure it was 12 clicks, or something like that. And I am positive that the bezel action was insanely bad - lots of slop, the feeling of parts scraping together (like on a Vostok), etc.

It was in Torneau's used watches, not new, so there's that. I think I recall mentioning the bezel to the salesperson, who I think seemed not at all surprised by it, or my reaction, giving me the impression that it was "normal" for the submersible.

Are the carbon-case versions different? I think it was a carbon case.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Hope these are allowed in the NTH forum.


Guns not allowed. Gunships? Sure!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> _"Still Fly" by Big Tymers plays_
> 
> "Wassup, Fresh? It's our turn, baby."
> 
> ...


I got a quarter tank of gas...
In my new E class...

Haven't heard that one in a while. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Galactic awesomeness


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> Hey Doc.....is this normal from shipping?


I have to say, it sucks that yours arrived that way, but have no worries, John and Doc will make it right. Also, the Santa Cruz looks amazing with no bezel. If Doc made a pilot bezel to fit, Id be all over that for my SC.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

What case is it that some of you have put your NTH dials into? The case that has no bezel. I remember seeing it done a couple of times, but can't remember which watch was used as the donor case for the NTH dial and movement to be put in. Anyone remember or know what I'm speaking of?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

WeirdGuy said:


> What case is it that some of you have taken your NTH dials out of and out them into? The case that has no bezel. I remember seeing it done a couple of times, but can't remember which watch was used as the donor for the NTH dial. Anyone remember or know what I'm speaking of?


Guessing it was the Alpha Explorer


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

yankeexpress said:


> WeirdGuy said:
> 
> 
> > What case is it that some of you have taken your NTH dials out of and out them into? The case that has no bezel. I remember seeing it done a couple of times, but can't remember which watch was used as the donor for the NTH dial. Anyone remember or know what I'm speaking of?
> ...


Thanks. I'll have to look in to this.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Here's a pic of one I remember.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> I did. John is more than amazing and accommodating. It's getting shipped back today.


I am sorry this happened to you. I am also really happy this happened to you! You seem to be very reasonable and it's honestly refreshing to see someone react this way. So many times you see people go off the rails without even giving the brand/vendor a chance to rectify the problem. I commend you good sir, and you are correct, John seems to be a really stand up guy and I have bought all my NTHs from him. I have no affiliation here, it's just nice to see problems like these handled in a grown up manner.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

My Santa Cruz.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

yankeexpress said:


> Guessing it was the Alpha Explorer


Ding, ding! Both courtesy of @hwa.

Show us more, 3WR... |>


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Twehttam said:


> yankeexpress said:
> 
> 
> > Guessing it was the Alpha Explorer
> ...


And there it is! The second one I remember seeing. Thank you! Going to grab one of these Alpha Explorers. Are you guys using the 36mm or 38mm case version?


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Anyone know if the Tisell Explorer would work as well?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I’d guess the dial opening is too big since the case is larger. I’ll PM you.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

WeirdGuy said:


> And there it is! The second one I remember seeing. Thank you! Going to grab one of these Alpha Explorers.


Alpha are apparently a PIA to obtain in the current world shipping environment as I have an Alpha Daytona inbound from an eBay seller in Vilnius, Lithuania and it is taking many weeks to get to the USA so far.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Twehttam said:


> I'd guess the dial opening is too big since the case is larger. I'll PM you.


Thanks for the info, Matt!



yankeexpress said:


> WeirdGuy said:
> 
> 
> > And there it is! The second one I remember seeing. Thank you! Going to grab one of these Alpha Explorers.
> ...


Yikes. No good. I'll see what I can come up with. Might have to wait until after this beer virus passes.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

In the meantime, I wonder if I were to remove the bezel from my Santa Cruz, if I could find a pilot bezel that would fit? Curious if maybe the pilot bezel that fits the SKX013 would work? Hmmm...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Ding, ding! Both courtesy of @hwa.
> 
> Show us more, 3WR... |>
> 
> View attachment 15037883


Sold it.

I kid, I kid! It's still in my care. Happy for any excuse to put it back on, which I've now done.

Here is a new picture from just now. And a recycled glamour shot.

Has the Explorer yielded any wrist time to other watches yet?



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Looks great. |>

Hmm, Jason at Halios made me a destro Seaforth but, not really, no. Still in love.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> Contact John to arrange a return.
> 
> FWIW - when we discovered the issue with the bezels last year, I contacted all my retailers, asking them to check their inventory. John sent all (100%) of his Santa Cruz pieces back to us, and we replaced all the cases.
> 
> ...


Had this happen with 2 of my 8 over the past couple months, but didn't think much of it. Bezels pop off now and then. I'm a bezel fidget-er. In particular I was not alarmed because I haven't been able to press fit them back on myself with my fingers. So I was just kind of biding my time for a trip to the watchmaker to see if he could get them back on with a quality press. But now that I see its a case issue, I suspect they are just going to pop off again even if I manage to get them back on. Submitted an inquiry through the NTH site to see what to do next. Oh well, I'll get by with the other six for now.

On further inspection, armed with knowledge of what to look for, I do see they both have the oblique angle in there. Not much of a ledge to hold them on.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work back on the bracelet. I will add I'm excited about the bronze gmt nth.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm waiting for @hwa to chime in here, but if memory serves, it's not quite an easy swap into an Alpha 36mm case. On some, he used a Smiths Everest from when Smiths was using the 9015 movement -- simple drop-in swap. Not sure it would be as easy, now that they've switched to the 9039 movement...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I have put NTH dials in many places. 

If you want Alpha, I recommend AlphaUK. I've heard of issues with the lithuanian supply, but the UK fella gets me what I pay for, no hassles.

I've stuck them also in a Smiths case. Get 'em if you can.

Note for the newbies: 9015 and 2824 stem height are not the same, and you will need to be mindful of that. The Smiths takes a 9015, so easy peasy. I spent lots of time and a bit of cash solving the 9015 > 2824 problem. The ones you see above - the Nazario and the Scorp - are both in 2824 cases with 9015s ticking away.

That new Seikota people are talking about, if you don't find it too ... erm ... ugly, might work, too.

Doc's dials are 29mm diameter. Don't forget that securing a movement in a case requires more than just ensuring the dial will fit.

Have fun, and remember, if you don't break it, you haven't bought it!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Take your Tikuna to work day.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Two sources say it's lunch time.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

New Breitlings give Tikuna a run for its money in the nuttiness department. The blue looks really nice. NTH does blue well. Hadn't wondered about a blue Tikuna until just now.

And that rainbow one? I guess it serves the purpose of showing what too nutty looks like. In comparison, the others aren't so crazy.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> New Breitlings give Tikuna a run for its money in the nuttiness department. The blue looks really nice. NTH does blue well. Hadn't wondered about a blue Tikuna until just now.
> 
> And that rainbow one? I guess it serves the purpose of showing what too nutty looks like. In comparison, the others aren't so crazy.
> 
> ...


Very fun design. The new chronomat are phenomenal

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> New Breitlings give Tikuna a run for its money in the nuttiness department. The blue looks really nice. NTH does blue well. Hadn't wondered about a blue Tikuna until just now.
> 
> And that rainbow one? I guess it serves the purpose of showing what too nutty looks like. In comparison, the others aren't so crazy.
> 
> ...


They're revisiting their own vintage designs.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Doc's dials are 29mm diameter. Don't forget that securing a movement in a case requires more than just ensuring the dial will fit.
> 
> Have fun, and remember, if you don't break it, you haven't bought it!


Interesting. That's near enough to the ~28.5mm Seiko diver dials that I would think NTH dials would fit in Seiko cases without much issue. The 9015 and 4R/6R date wheels probably aren't in the exact same spot, but an NTH no-date would make that a non-issue. Now I want to see what an SBDC051 would look like with an NTH dial in it. SBDC gilt 'Cuda? Hmmmmmmm....


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Well, know this: you sand 0.5mm from doc’s 29mm dial, you will be nibbling with disaster, as dial opening is 28.0...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

28.7mm is max inside an SKX case so you're going to have to shave it. Be careful!

I'll stick with Doc's case... or an Alpha.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

***** make it stop.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Hey, we have to buy a watch first to destroy it, right?

But, ok.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> ***** make it stop.


If it's me you want to stop, ***** isn't the authority

Anyway, you might recall we do this for fun

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> If it's me you want to stop, ***** isn't the authority
> 
> Anyway, you might recall we do this for fun
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doing what you like


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Imma just gonna leave these here:


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> ***** make it stop.


I got you


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

it will be 2 years soon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> it will be 2 years soon.
> View attachment 15040235


You're overdue to add another.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First renders of the new DevilRay, on new bracelet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Which movement will be in the new DR?


----------



## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

Whilver. Ha!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Which movement will be in the new DR?


Seiko NH3x.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I didnt think I was gonna want one of the new DRs. I think I might've been wrong...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The bracelet links appear to have a different colour than the case (case is brighter than the links). Hint towards a titanium bracelet? Or different (non-316L) steel for case?


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> The bracelet links appear to have a different colour than the case (case is brighter than the links). Hint towards a titanium bracelet? Or different (non-316L) steel for case?


You're fishing for another WoT?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Somebody said the T word. Brace yourself!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> The bracelet links appear to have a different colour than the case (case is brighter than the links). Hint towards a titanium bracelet? Or different (non-316L) steel for case?


Well, it is just a render. My money is on a simple brushed/polished combo and the color difference is simply the "lighting".

But I dont know jack, I'm just talkin out my a**.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> The bracelet links appear to have a different colour than the case (case is brighter than the links). Hint towards a titanium bracelet? Or different (non-316L) steel for case?





TheBearded said:


> Well, it is just a render. My money is on a simple brushed/polished combo and the color difference is simply the "lighting".
> 
> But I dont know jack, I'm just talkin out my a**.


^This.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Wow! Looks amazing. I really like the bracelet design. Since I first saw a DR picture I always wondered about the cool multicolored minute ring and now have looked it up to find it is a simple depth gauge. Very cool excuse for funky colors! I love the way the colors seem to pop on the black dial. Love the hands too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm currently using the Santa Fe's aura to melt the germ.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Some Dumb Devil Ray Questions:

1. How does the shrouded bezel work? Can you grip it only from certain angles? 

2. Is the crown grip sawtooth - like the bezel?

3. Have any of you actually tried to use the depth gauge in the sea, and did it work?

4. Please, please tell me the size is too big for my 6.5 flat wrist. Anyone with similar wrist have a pic they want to post?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Ike2 said:


> Some Dumb Devil Ray Questions:
> 
> 1. How does the shrouded bezel work? Can you grip it only from certain angles?
> 
> ...


Based on the current (old ?) Devilray:

1. The shroud is open at the top and bottom, so you can grip it only there. But the openings are wide enough, I never had an issue getting a good grip.

2. Yes, sawtooth crown. Super easy to use.

3. Swam with it but did not dive that deep, so I cannot comment on this.

4. Sorry to say so, but I don't think it would be too big. I have a same size wrist, and it fits me fine.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Ho lee cr**. Based alone on Gokce's response, I might have to get one.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> Since I first saw a DR picture I always wondered about the cool multicolored minute ring and now have looked it up to find it is a simple depth gauge. Very cool excuse for funky colors! I love the way the colors seem to pop on the black dial.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same here. I was wondering what the heck that was for on the first iteration of the DR, and once I read that it was a depth gauge I fell in love with the idea. Just too cool.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

gokce said:


> Based on the current (old ?) Devilray:
> 
> 1. The shroud is open at the top and bottom, so you can grip it only there. But the openings are wide enough, I never had an issue getting a good grip.
> 
> ...


Thank you sir! Very helpful and I must say you have a gorgeous watch. Wear it in good health! I do have a real conundrum though. I ordered the DiRenzo Eclipse already and promised myself it would be my only 2020 watch purchase. But this one is really calling to me...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I dont think its a depth gauge, I though it was to time decompression stops?

I could be getting caught up in terminology, but depth gauges generally need a pressure sensor?


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

It's a depth gauge. The colors disappear based on depth, red, then yellow, then blue. Doc writes about it on his blog where he discusses the watch's design.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

gokce said:


> Based on the current (old ?) Devilray:
> 
> 1. The shroud is open at the top and bottom, so you can grip it only there. But the openings are wide enough, I never had an issue getting a good grip.
> 
> ...


Old one cost $700 what's the cost of new model?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

JLS36 said:


> Old one cost $700 what's the cost of new model?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


$525

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ike2 said:


> JLS36 said:
> 
> 
> > Old one cost $700 what's the cost of new model?
> ...


Still wont have the VFM he looks for.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Still wont have the VFM he looks for.


$525 is not unreasonable, but not amazing for a nh35. I do enjoy the colors and designs. They are nice looking watches.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Thank you sir! Very helpful and I must say you have a gorgeous watch. Wear it in good health! I do have a real conundrum though. I ordered the DiRenzo Eclipse already and promised myself it would be my only 2020 watch purchase. But this one is really calling to me...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cool, one watch per year. My hat is off to you. But we're all in an alternate timeline now. Have you picked out your quarantine watch purchase, yet?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Holy heck, man, I forgot how much better watches look outside. This thing is all sparkly, and sun-bursty, and crazy legible.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> Cool, one watch per year. My hat is off to you. But we're all in an alternate timeline now. Have you picked out your quarantine watch purchase, yet?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Let's just say the last few years have not been one purchase per year ... But I agree on the alternate timeline.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> $525 is not unreasonable, but not amazing for a nh35. I do enjoy the colors and designs. They are nice looking watches.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Folks don't give that movement enough credit. It's almost indestructible by all accounts. To me, even though it's inexpensive with only a 21.6 beat count, I'll take that over a higher maintenance 28.8 all day long.

YMMV


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Some Dumb Devil Ray Questions:
> 
> 1. How does the shrouded bezel work? Can you grip it only from certain angles?
> 
> ...


I have tried it, seems to function ok. Wont rely on it. I have girly wrists, and I wear it. Can't post pics as my watch is out of the country......plus all my pics suck.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

I would say the devil ray wears like a 41mm...a touch smaller than it's specs...

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Some Dumb Devil Ray Questions:
> 
> 1. How does the shrouded bezel work? Can you grip it only from certain angles?
> 
> ...


I've heard dumber.



gokce said:


> Based on the current (old ?) Devilray:
> 
> 1. The shroud is open at the top and bottom, so you can grip it only there. But the openings are wide enough, I never had an issue getting a good grip.
> 
> ...


^This.

It's a pretty short lug-width, just 46mm.

The case diameter is 43mm, but IMO, it wears smaller. I'm pretty sure the bezel diameter is just 40mm.

Our website says it's 14mm thick, but...I think it might actually be 13.5mm, and again, IMO, it wears thinner, because of the way the bottom of the case is shaped.

The big dimension is the weight, especially on the bracelet (at least, the old one). The original is a bit of a beast on the bracelet. You don't forget you're wearing a DevilRay, on the bracelet.

I didn't mention it before, but since I'm talking about it, the new bracelet, in addition to having fewer links, which I think would make for less weight, is also marginally thinner (thinner links), in order to fit the thinner clasp. The thinner links and smaller clasp will certainly make it slightly lighter.

I doubt anyone would think it's *A LOT* lighter overall, but it's probably going to *feel* a little lighter on the wrist.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I dont think its a depth gauge, I though it was to time decompression stops?
> 
> I could be getting caught up in terminology, but depth gauges generally need a pressure sensor?


You're confusing the bezel with the rainbow ring on the dial, which is indeed a color-based depth gauge.

Scroll to the bottom of the page, here - https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news/a-sneak-peek-at-the-upcoming-nth-devilray-part-two.



Toonces said:


> It's a depth gauge. The colors disappear based on depth, red, then yellow, then blue. Doc writes about it on his blog where he discusses the watch's design.


^This.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Both the Seiko NH3x and the Miyota 9 series are criminally underrated.

The 9015 is "nicer", overall. But the NH3x is no slouch. Indeed, in our observation, it's dang near indestructible. 

And, as a bi-directional winder, if the 9015's rotor noise and wobble bothers you, the Seiko has neither. 

As for the price - meh, it's not amazing value. Go buy something that is, if it's more to your liking. No hard feelings.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I am in for a date/black dial. 
Was gonna chill out with purchases until the DR but could not resist Oberon(damn covid got the delivery delayed otherwise Id spam this tread with pics).
You changed the two things I was not a fan of. Clasp and movement. Love the sub clasp and NH35 is indestructible. And if it does go bad, its freaking $40


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

What fun is this hobby without a little insanity? Sure you could just "buy a watch the way it comes," and indeed, four of the six in my current collection are completely stock. I really enjoy my two frankenwatches though. Of course they are terrible values, the SKX has hundreds and hundreds more than its worth invested in mods, and the Monster Samurai required an entire Jade Monster as a dial and movement donor. They are _completely_ unique watches though, which I think is its own value. Is it dumb to buy a Barracuda VB, and an SKX case, and pull the dial out of the Cuda, shave it down to fit, and stick it in the SKX case? Absolutely. It's idiotic. But it's also cool. Sometimes dumb things are cool.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I am in for a date/black dial.
> Was gonna chill out with purchases until the DR but could not resist Oberon(damn covid got the delivery delayed otherwise Id spam this tread with pics).
> You changed the two things I was not a fan of. Clasp and movement. Love the sub clasp and NH35 is indestructible. And if it does go bad, its freaking $40
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


If it goes bad in the first 6 years, it's free. Just send it back to us for a movement swap.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> What fun is this hobby without a little insanity? Sure you could just "buy a watch the way it comes," and indeed, four of the six in my current collection are completely stock. I really enjoy my two frankenwatches though. Of course they are terrible values, the SKX has hundreds and hundreds more than its worth invested in mods, and the Monster Samurai required an entire Jade Monster as a dial and movement donor. They are _completely_ unique watches though, which I think is its own value. Is it dumb to buy a Barracuda VB, and an SKX case, and pull the dial out of the Cuda, shave it down to fit, and stick it in the SKX case? Absolutely. It's idiotic. But it's also cool. Sometimes dumb things are cool.
> 
> View attachment 15043385


Cant lie. Looks pretty cool.

I'm sure Doc is slightly miffed and offended though, lol.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> If it goes bad in the first 6 years, it's free. Just send it back to us for a movement swap.


Cant beat that. Piece of mind for us nerds

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Cant lie. Looks pretty cool.
> 
> I'm sure Doc is slightly miffed and offended though, lol.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerb today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Any opinions on how Devilray wears relative to Turtles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Any opinions on how Devilray wears relative to Turtles?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I recall a similar vibe/feel to my turtle when I tried a DevilRay.

It's not too big for a 6.5" wrist, but it ain't a 36 Explorer, either. Lug-length is relatively short, so it's not a hanger, but you'll know its there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## graham.r (Apr 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Both the Seiko NH3x and the Miyota 9 series are criminally underrated.
> 
> The 9015 is "nicer", overall. But the NH3x is no slouch. Indeed, in our observation, it's dang near indestructible.
> 
> ...


Hi Doc,
Will you be adjusting the NH3x to some sort of daily tolerance or fitting them as is?


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ghost Rider for me today.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Cant lie. Looks pretty cool.
> 
> I'm sure Doc is slightly miffed and offended though, lol.


Nah, I'm used to it.

Case in point...



hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

graham.r said:


> Hi Doc,
> Will you be adjusting the NH3x to some sort of daily tolerance or fitting them as is?


We'll make sure they're running well within spec.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Question for you all...

Have any of you used a credit-card-number-masking service when shopping online? I'd never heard of this until today. Apparently, these services allow you to create unique "virtual" credit card numbers for use with each site, but tied to your real card number.

So, as an example, if your real card number ends in 5678, the service would randomly generate a new card number, ending in, say, 8752, so you could check out on my site. But that number would be tied to your use on my site, and only my site. If you went to Amazon, or Watch Gauge, you'd get a completely different randomly generated number, tied to that site.

If any of you have used a service like this, have you found any problems with your transactions being flagged as potentially fraudulent, or have you had to re-generate multiple numbers for use on the same site, rather than having a single number for use with that site, over and over?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Question for you all...
> 
> Have any of you used a credit-card-number-masking service when shopping online? I'd never heard of this until today. Apparently, these services allow you to create unique "virtual" credit card numbers for use with each site, but tied to your real card number.
> 
> ...


Apple Pay and the new Apple Card do that by default. It's becoming more and more common to see that now. I'm in the payments industry, so expect to see this more and more. A single use number is by design the most secure transaction since it can't be re-used.

https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/04/01/apple-card-virtual-numbers/

During the Apple Keynote address when they announced the Apple Card, they go into great detail. I'd suggest watching that. It's damn impressive.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> Apple Pay and the new Apple Card do that by default. It's becoming more and more common to see that now. I'm in the payments industry, so expect to see this more and more. A single use number is by design the most secure transaction since it can't be re-used.
> 
> https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/04/01/apple-card-virtual-numbers/
> 
> During the Apple Keynote address when they announced the Apple Card, they go into great detail. I'd suggest watching that. It's damn impressive.


Understood, but that doesn't really answer my questions.

My questions are - do transactions get rejected more often, as being potentially fraudulent, or do the single-use/single-site numbers not work sometimes, forcing the user to regenerate new numbers?

IMO, this sort of thing might be overkill. When someone checks out on most ecommerce sites, it's a secure checkout. We're not capturing a full credit card number, just the last four digits, and the card billing info.

There are already systems in place to prevent fraud - those little 3 or 4 digit security pins printed on the card, and address verification. A good ecommerce site will have built-in fraud alerts to warn a merchant when a transaction seems sketchy. Almost anything can trigger it - multiple checkout attempts, masked IP addresses, conflicting billing/shipping and IP locations, etc.

I'm dealing with a situation here. I had a transaction for one watch come through my site last week. It was flagged as potentially fraudulent, but I shipped the watch, after receiving a copy of the customer's ID, and doing a little digging.

Yesterday, he came through checkout again, but this time, more warning bells went off, for a variety of reasons. Among other things, instead of using the same credit card info he used the first time (which worked on his first attempt), there were multiple attempts, all using different numbers. Looking at my store's abandoned checkouts, I can see he's been attempting to get through checkout for days, but never asked for help.

His explanation was that he uses one of these card-number masking services. But, I looked into it, and if I understand it correctly, the service's randomly-generated numbers should "stick" in my site. There'd be no reason for him to try multiple other numbers.

If the system worked like Apple Pay, or some other similar services, it shouldn't trigger a fraud alert (at least, not for those reasons).

This situation raises suspicion for multiple reasons - his IP address is different than his shipping address. The shipping address is a freight forwarding operation. Despite being American (according to his ID), his English is pretty bad, etc.

It has all the markings of a fraud. I canceled his second and third orders, and refunded him. The first watch already shipped, and was delivered, so there's nothing I can do about that.

But, my aim isn't to convince myself of any of the above. Not the point. The point is just the questions I asked. I'd never heard of this service until today. So, I want to know, from actual users, what their experience has been. Specifically, do transactions seem to be more frequently flagged as potentially fraudulent, and have they had to re-generate those single-use numbers because of problems at checkout?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Understood, but that doesn't really answer my questions.
> 
> My questions are - do transactions get rejected more often, as being potentially fraudulent, or do the single-use/single-site numbers not work sometimes, forcing the user to regenerate new numbers?
> 
> ...


Let's look at things as we would entry points and data storage points. With your security you have now, you have one entry point and one data storage point - combined, it houses ALL of the security in one location - card number, PIN, CVV code, etc; all stored on your device or using the servers you use to transact. With all of that being available through one point of entry, that makes it less secure, so the current technology today is still hackable, and due to the one door entry point, all of that data is captured if I break in. You are capturing the card data, it just isn't visible to you by design, to prevent the bad persons who would be corrupt enough to see and steal that data. But I assure you, it's there, encrypted. If I hack your encryption, I have it all.

As to the mention of entry points etc, the masked card information concept (speaking in purely super simple terms) parses some of the data to you, some to the issuer, some to the processor, etc....meaning, I need multiple keys and multiple places to breach to collect 100% of the data. Damn difficult. And a huge PITA.

E-commerce is the most insecure method of transaction, hence this push towards security. Rates are highest in Interchange online as well. A card used in person could have a core cost of 1.51%, but online can go as high as 2.75% when the correct protocols aren't put in place. It's a very complex model to explain to someone in the merchant services industry, let alone some not in the industry. I am a sales trainer in merchant services, have been for well over a decade. It takes the average sale rep a solid six months to get comfortable understanding it, and that's this being their full time job.



docvail said:


> I'm dealing with a situation here. I had a transaction for one watch come through my site last week. It was flagged as potentially fraudulent, but I shipped the watch, after receiving a copy of the customer's ID, and doing a little digging.
> 
> Yesterday, he came through checkout again, but this time, more warning bells went off, for a variety of reasons. Among other things, instead of using the same credit card info he used the first time (which worked on his first attempt), there were multiple attempts, all using different numbers. Looking at my store's abandoned checkouts, I can see he's been attempting to get through checkout for days, but never asked for help.
> 
> ...


I would be highly suspicious, as that does have all of the telltale markings of fraud. Having done business one other time before is to provide you with a false sense of confidence. but as to why he is doing that, only he would know. My first instruction would be to immediately contact your processor and have a lengthy and detailed conversation......they have data you don't nd can assist. I am thrilled to see you capture and understand this to the degree that you do. Most small business owners do not. Hats off to you. Always be suspicious.

I would straight up ask him what service he used to mask his card and why. You are in control as the seller.

Now to the random number 'sticking'....no, they are one use only numbers created per transaction, so this performed exactly as it should. I would suspect he was using an Apple Card, not Apple Pay. Ask him. They are MasterCard only. That should appear in your transaction query.



docvail said:


> But, my aim isn't to convince myself of any of the above. Not the point. The point is just the questions I asked. I'd never heard of this service until today. So, I want to know, from actual users, what their experience has been. Specifically, do transactions seem to be more frequently flagged as potentially fraudulent, and have they had to re-generate those single-use numbers because of problems at checkout.


Speaking from personal experience (and being in the industry) I prefer to only use something that gives me maximum protection against fraud. The companies that mask card numbers, are these banks doing that? I haven't seen much fraud at all when the proper steps are taken using this setup (Apple Card masking and single use card numbers being generated). I strongly suggest you have a long and detailed discussion with your processor and speak to someone who knows more about this, not the regular customer service agent. They won't have the details that you need.

Hope that helps.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> ...Hope that helps.


More than I'd have thought, thanks.

I'm 98% sure the guy was a scammer. I was mostly just trying to suss out one aspect of what I saw - the many, multiple attempts at checkout, using all difference CC numbers.

That's almost always been a sure sign of someone trying to rip me off, with very few exceptions. The mention of a virtual card number generated by a masking service added a new wrinkle, so I wanted to know more about people's experience with those services.

Logically, if using a virtual card number led to problems at checkout, and merchants denying sales for fear of fraud, those systems wouldn't be anywhere near as appealing. So, my assumption is that people using them don't have that problem, and thus, I'm correct in continuing to believe that someone who attempts to check out using half a dozen different cards numbers is most likely a scammer, not a legit customer struggling with a virtual card.


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## guspech750 (Dec 15, 2013)

That is some straight up mind numbing info. But let me say that when it comes to this techy stuff I am a boob. I never knew or heard of that type of system to use a credit card and then use another one time use number to protect the consumers info. How long has this type of protection been around?

What credit cards or pay services offer this type of protection?


Sent from the White House on the tax payers dime.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

guspech750 said:


> That is some straight up mind numbing info. But let me say that when it comes to this techy stuff I am a boob. I never knew or heard of that type of system to use a credit card and then use another one time use number to protect the consumers info. How long has this type of protection been around?
> 
> What credit cards or pay services offer this type of protection?
> 
> Sent from the White House on the tax payers dime.


Yeah, this is definitely NOT a sexy topic or dinner table conversation. When people ask what I do, I usually saying 'banking'.

To your question, all issuers now have levels of protection, as do card processors and third party companies who are involved in the transaction flow. Think of it as a cat and mouse game, where a criminal does something to breach their security protocol, so now the issuers etc have to invent a new security measure, so on and so forth. So on some level, as crime intensifies, so does security. While that can be a PITA, it is also a good end result.

'In person' transactions pose the lowest risk, as the card, cardholder, merchant, and their equipment are all there. Same card, but keyed in, and the risk increases, as the data visible on the card could be the faked info and they engineered the chip or stripe to not work or not match. Go to online, and any software that mimics data can be used, or a stolen card where the seller has zero security over the transaction can occur.....and the identity of the cardholder is done by keystrokes, not humans or in-person security measures.

Put simply using a cell phone as a reference, a simple 4 digit passcode is the least secure, and that's the level of security online as compared to using optics scanners and facial recognition like iPhone and Android use now in person. Can't perform those optics and facial recognition checks on the web. By masking the card data, the unlocking of the actual card number takes place elsewhere, and the system is unlocked using verification tools that help assist in improving the security. When you key in your sixteen digit card number, expiration date, and CVV code, then billing address, you're giving the thief EVERYTHING they need to use your card data.....so the security is up to the seller/processor/checkout system they use. But that raw data is being broadcast in full instead of being masked or using a one-time card number.

Anyways, this is super boring stuff, but important to know nowadays.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Back to NTH.....please!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Here's a picture of a watch


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

And another watch









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> And another watch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You purposely pair the crazy watch with the pink toed socks?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Forgive me as this isn't my area of expertise at all, but what happens if whatever company that provides this credit card masking service is themselves hacked? Presumably they have encryption in place for that so that the thieves would only get encrypted data? I recall that in the case of Home Depot, the in-person checkout machines were hacked, but that was six years ago. Back then you were swiping your card, no idea if having chips on cards then would've prevented some of that. 

Sorry to take things off of watches, just curious.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> You purposely pair the crazy watch with the pink toed socks?
> 
> View attachment 15049165


What's up with that date? Unfortunate angle/shadow in the photo or is it often difficult to see the whole number?

I've wondered before - in my head if not out loud - why date windows there are round and not a tilted rectangle.

Looks great all the same. Nice pairing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > You purposely pair the crazy watch with the pink toed socks?
> ...


Simply an unfortunate shadow. Although it is quite a tight squeeze in that lil' date window.

My Tikuna is my first 430 date window... and it will be the last. None, 3 or 6. No more 430. Still love the watch. But that 430 window is just weird.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Everyone's geeking out over credit card fraud, and I'm just like...









...my watch strap matches my shorts! b-)


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

More random fun with Photoshop - Seiko 'Cuda dual-time Goldeneye


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> More random fun with Photoshop - Seiko 'Cuda dual-time Goldeneye
> 
> View attachment 15049825


Ok so we got ceramic insert, bronze/brass bezel, seiko case, shaved off bit of the dial.

I think if you just add a gmt hand and a jubilee bracelet, we got Doc's brain properly fried.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> More random fun with Photoshop


Hey, if you are up for requests, I'l love to see a black Scorpene with Vanguard bezel insert and Amphion Commando insert.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Wimads said:


> Ok so we got ceramic insert, bronze/brass bezel, seiko case, shaved off bit of the dial.
> 
> I think if you just add a gmt hand and a jubilee bracelet, we got Doc's brain properly fried.
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


Bezel is PVD gold plated, but yes. Just need to add "Swiss Made" at the bottom to really get every pain point at once.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let's file this one under "W" for, "Welp, that's one mystery, solved"...

Referring back to a recent discussion regarding why we aren't always able to get the exact number of clicks we want in a bi-directional bezel, depending on its diameter.

Apparently the Phantom bezels were constructed just like Damasko's, so Dan ripped this image from their site, and sent it to me with this explanation:

"The limitation on the number of clicks is determined by the diameter of the click balls and springs along with the diameter of the bezel. The bezel has little detentes bored into the underside of the bezel that the ball clicks into. The detente is rounded to the exact radius of the ball."

We discussed it a little more - my suspicion is that there are probably a small number of standard-size-diameter click-balls (there's a joke there, I'm sure of it) we can use, rather than being able to specify whatever size balls we want (and there the joke is).

If we want to increase from 60 to say, 120 clicks, that would require many more and smaller detentes, and much smaller balls. Perhaps too small, probably smaller than they're made. We'd have to increase the diameter of the bezel to get more clicks, using bigger balls.

Looking at a 40mm or 42mm diameter, my guess is that a 24 or 48 click bi-directional bezel would be no problem (just use bigger balls than the Phantom had for 60 clicks), but a 96-click, bi-directional bezel might be a challenge, at that size, with this sort of mechanism, because the balls may not be small enough.

None of which is to make anyone think we're going to be re-doing the NTH Subs case with a bi-directional bezel for the 12-hour bezel models. That ain't happening, for other reasons I've laid out before. I just figured I'd close the loop on why we couldn't make the Phantom a 120-click bi-directional (diameter was too small for our balls).


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

oberon 2. :-!


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Gone now, but not forgotten......









Cheerz,

Alan


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

New arrival. This does not really capture the glory of the gilt, but I wanted to snap a shot before I lost the light.

View attachment DSC_7475.jpg


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Hey, if you are up for requests, I'l love to see a black Scorpene with Vanguard bezel insert and Amphion Commando insert.


Done and done.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> mconlonx said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, if you are up for requests, I'l love to see a black Scorpene with Vanguard bezel insert and Amphion Commando insert.
> ...


I'm diggin' that "ScorVan"


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Let's file this one under "W" for, "Welp, that's one mystery, solved"...
> 
> Referring back to a recent discussion regarding why we aren't always able to get the exact number of clicks we want in a bi-directional bezel, depending on its diameter.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Older Seikos are like that, too. SKX031 or there abouts. Have definitely chased down some escaped parts like those after removing a bezel.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Red liners










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

You can make 120 clicks with the same size balls and detents as the 60 click. All that is needed is a second ball and spring 180° plus or minus 1/2 the spacing of the detents, or so I have been told.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Done and done.
> 
> View attachment 15052013
> 
> ...


Cool. Thanks!


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Balls...uh...hehe. hehehe.


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> You can make 120 clicks with the same size balls and detents as the 60 click. All that is needed is a second ball and spring 180° plus or minus 1/2 the spacing of the detents, or so I have been told.


This. In fact I've noticed this when I changed the bezel of a seiko turtle - they don't use balls, but a spring with two lips (uh oh, no pun intended), where one is spaced half a detent off to make 120 clicks of a 60 detent bezel.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Red liners
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great duo! How does the Tudor compare to the NTH? I know they are completely different price points, but I'm trying to get a feel if people find them worth all of the extra money. I see it's a bigger case size (I don't mind over 40mm even though the NTH Subs wear so nice), but I mean more quality-wise. Does the watch feel like it's worth 5X the NTH like the price is? Thanks!


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seiko SZSB021 "TiCTAC" with dauphine hands from the SNKL. Entertaining thoughts of doing this swap. These TiCTAC Seikos are some of the prettiest watches they've done lately IMO, but I'm not a fan of the Alpinist hands.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> Great duo! How does the Tudor compare to the NTH? I know they are completely different price points, but I'm trying to get a feel if people find them worth all of the extra money. I see it's a bigger case size (I don't mind over 40mm even though the NTH Subs wear so nice), but I mean more quality-wise. Does the watch feel like it's worth 5X the NTH like the price is? Thanks!


Is one watch really "worth" 5x more than a other. Probably not in a linear sense but as you move up the quality ladder, you get less for your money on a per dollar basis. Not all dollars equal.

I have a Monta Oceanking and have handled several TudorBBs including the 58. I'd say quality is pretty similar. However, where the difference comes from are the movement and brand name, as major contributors and to a lesser extent, the slight increase in all other factors (ie bracelet, bezel action, etc). Monta is great but there are incremental improvements on the Tudor that cost the premium.

I could say the same thing about NTH and Monta. Is the Monta worth 3x the NTH. No. But those incremental improvements are an exponential cost (and "Swiss made" however much that is worth to you).

Ultimately, I always think this question isnt correctly posed when it's based around value. It should first be looked at regarding where does the user fall in the tier spectrum. I'd say NTH is at the top of the 500-700 range. Halios/cward are in the 700-850ish range, and monta/Oris/sinn/many others are in the 1k plus tier.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> You can make 120 clicks with the same size balls and detents as the 60 click. All that is needed is a second ball and spring 180° plus or minus 1/2 the spacing of the detents, or so I have been told.


In theory, perhaps.

In practice, I wonder about the challenges involved in locating / drilling the spring-holes/click-balls precisely enough to achieve that sort of result.

Without knowing for certain, let's say the smallest size click-ball is 0.5mm in diameter. I think we'd need to offset the holes by precisely 0.25mm, with virtually no margin for error.

Having seen how often a 0.5mm spring bar hole can be slightly mis-located on a lug, and what a PITA it can be to get a spring bar tip to seat correctly as a result, I wouldn't be 100% confident in trying to get 120 clicks out of this plan.

I've learned through bitter experience to heed the advice of my vendors. If they tell me something can't be done, sometimes, I'll find that it can be. But more often than not, they know more about the processes involved in production, and the limitations thereof, than I do.

I can easily imagine my vendor warning me that if we tried to outsmart the manufacturing, we'd have higher costs, due to a higher number of rejected parts (much like the higher reject rate for the gilt-relief dials).


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Wimads said:


> This. In fact I've noticed this when I changed the bezel of a seiko turtle - they don't use balls, but a spring with two lips (uh oh, no pun intended), where one is spaced half a detent off to make 120 clicks of a 60 detent bezel.


So the lips wrap around the balls?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> So the lips wrap around the balls?


Too easy...


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

mgp123 said:


> Great duo! How does the Tudor compare to the NTH? I know they are completely different price points, but I'm trying to get a feel if people find them worth all of the extra money. I see it's a bigger case size (I don't mind over 40mm even though the NTH Subs wear so nice), but I mean more quality-wise. Does the watch feel like it's worth 5X the NTH like the price is? Thanks!


This hobby is subjective and I don't know how to answer that. I keep a small collection of 7-8 pieces at the time and everything I have right now is worth it to me. One thing is for sure though, I will always have 1 NTH and 1 Seiko.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Too easy...


Hmm. Small balls? or wide lips?


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

ryan850 said:


> Is one watch really "worth" 5x more than a other. Probably not in a linear sense but as you move up the quality ladder, you get less for your money on a per dollar basis. Not all dollars equal.


I think you nailed it with that response.

I don't want a +$2k watch on my wrist until I can really afford it which to me means not worry when I [accidentally] scratch it. I'd rather have four $500 watches that I can wear without worrying as much so I can be more comfortable doing whatever comes my way during the day with it on. I don't want to look at any watch as an "investment" to the point I have to worry about every scratch. I'm buying watches to wear after all; not just look at and baby!


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> This hobby is subjective and I don't know how to answer that. I keep a small collection of 7-8 pieces at the time and everything I have right now is worth it to me. One thing is for sure though, I will always have 1 NTH and 1 Seiko.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Your willpower is stronger than mine keeping a 7-8 watch collection. 

And I agree; I will always want to have at least one Seiko and one watch from Doc in my collection!


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Wow, that Pelagos is a beast compared to the NTH.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> I think you nailed it with that response.
> 
> I don't want a +$2k watch on my wrist until I can really afford it which to me means not worry when I [accidentally] scratch it. I'd rather have four $500 watches that I can wear without worrying as much so I can be more comfortable doing whatever comes my way during the day with it on. I don't want to look at any watch as an "investment" to the point I have to worry about every scratch. I'm buying watches to wear after all; not just look at and baby!


I feel the same. I'd rather have several (re 6...) in the 500 to 1000 range instead of 1+ in the 3500-4k range.

I appreciate watches and like the variability of having multiple pieces to choose from. While I understand the "consolidate and move up" mentality, Ive reached the tier that I find the most value in and don't have a desire to move up any further, at this time.

I also don't see enough value in moving up market atm. That would take place once I had enough disposable income to justify several pieces in that price tier (and even then I might not, as I like the what the under 1500 price has to offer).

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> Your willpower is stronger than mine keeping a 7-8 watch collection.
> 
> And I agree; I will always want to have at least one Seiko and one watch from Doc in my collection!


I agree regarding NTH always being in the collection. The fit, for me, along with everything else the subs have to offer, means I'll most likely always have a sub. Currently have an NTH Odin that is a keeper as there are sentimental aspects associated with it.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There are a lot of watches above $700 that I would love to own. 

I've made peace with the fact that not only will most "normal" people never understand why we'd spend so much on a watch, I can't even convince myself those watches are good value for the money.

Instead, what I focus on is a pretty straightforward question - what else is out there, that scratches that same itch, the same way, for less?

If the answer is "nothing", then that's all there is to it. This isn't an entirely rational hobby. As much as some may try to come up with a formula for how much a watch should cost, based on its specs and features, we're more driven by our desires (our hearts) than our minds and our reason.

Luckily for me, I've so far been able to find a reason NOT to buy all the watches I like, above that price.

Like, I could shift a few pieces from my collection, and pick up an SMP 2254.50, in good condition, but I hate the date window and the HEV at 10:00. I love the Sinn 857, but it's too big, and I hate the date window. There are easily a half-dozen luxury watches I could get from selling off pieces of my own collection, but each one presents a problem I just can't get past. I'm not spending $1k-$2k on a watch if there's even one tiny thing I don't like about it.

So, for me, it's not about trying to figure out if the Pelagos is 5x "nicer" than an NTH. I have no doubt that it is nicer, and no doubt that it's not 5x nicer. That doesn't matter to me. It's that I can't see spending $3500 on a watch if I don't absolutely love everything about it.

In the meantime, as time goes by, I make my own versions of those things I would get, if only they didn't have that stupid date window, or the HEV, or weren't as large, etc. I always end up liking what I make better anyway.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

ryan850 said:


> I feel the same. I'd rather have several (re 6...) in the 500 to 1000 range instead of 1+ in the 3500-4k range.
> 
> I appreciate watches and like the variability of having multiple pieces to choose from. While I understand the "consolidate and move up" mentality, Ive reached the tier that I find the most value in and don't have a desire to move up any further, at this time.
> 
> ...


I'm in the same boat. I could sell off my entire collection, and buy something like an Oyster Perpetual or Aqua-Terra with the resultant cash. Both are very nice watches, and certainly "better" than anything I have now. When I think about what I'm really getting though, it's mostly stuff that I just don't care about. The fancy badge doesn't really mean anything to me. Their finishing is excellent as you would expect in the $5K+ class, but the higher-end Seiko Brightz and Presage models are also _very_ well finished, nearly to GS level, and they cost 1/5 as much.

So that basically just leaves movements, and to me, less is more. I like that the 9015 and 4R/6R are cheap and reliable. None of them are that nice to look at of course, but unless you've got a JLC Reverso with a display back where you can realistically wear the watch upside down, how often are you looking at a movement?

Plus at the end of the day, I just think I would get bored wearing the same watch over and over, even a _really_ nice one.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Ill say, Monta killed a lot of desire for me to want expensive watches, they knock $2k out of the park just like NTH knocks it out of the park at under $1k.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Gilty pleasure.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Wearing Vail's finest work on its bracelet looking forward to hump day.










Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

According to my informal survey...

Apparently, I’d rather have 60 sub +/- $500 watches...

WTF!

I’m never doing inventory again...

Also, 3 Seiko 5s inbound! 

Gawddammit..


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> You purposely pair the crazy watch with the pink toed socks?
> 
> View attachment 15049165


Dont give too much credit. Sometimes I just get lucky like that

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Hey, if you are up for requests, I'l love to see a black Scorpene with Vanguard bezel insert and Amphion Commando insert.


If you want a black nth, this'll have to do.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> There are a lot of watches above $700 that I would love to own.
> 
> I've made peace with the fact that not only will most "normal" people never understand why we'd spend so much on a watch, I can't even convince myself those watches are good value for the money.
> 
> ...


So an NTH with an unnecessary HEV is not going to happen?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I wonder, Doc, if you either have, or would build your own personal "perfect watch."

I suspect that at the end of the day you're running a watch company to make money, so you build both what you like, and what you think will sell. However, I have to think as well that if I was a watch company owner with access to your resources, I'd be sorely tempted to make my own personal favorite watch. Maybe make 10 as a limited edition, keep one and sell the rest.

Maybe you've already done that, I don't know. I wonder if I would even want a watch from another company if I could just build my own?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

For some of us that would be the Carolina.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

SZSB with Fifty Fathoms hands. Gotta say.....this combo is really pushing my buttons. I just may have to grab one of these before the prices on them get absurd like the 006/007 which are now $1K for a 4R35 Seiko with hardlex on it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> So an NTH with an unnecessary HEV is not going to happen?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depends on what you mean by unnecessary.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I wonder, Doc, if you either have, or would build your own personal "perfect watch."
> 
> I suspect that at the end of the day you're running a watch company to make money, so you build both what you like, and what you think will sell. However, I have to think as well that if I was a watch company owner with access to your resources, I'd be sorely tempted to make my own personal favorite watch. Maybe make 10 as a limited edition, keep one and sell the rest.
> 
> Maybe you've already done that, I don't know. I wonder if I would even want a watch from another company if I could just build my own?


There's no such thing as the perfect watch, at least not for me.

If there was, I wouldn't have 20 watches.


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## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

While we're on the topic, what are your chronograph picks for the sub 1k and sub 2k price brackets? I'd also love to hear if anyone has experience on how incremental the differences are between differently priced chronographs. For example, (brand and provenance aside) how much better of a chronograph is the speedy than the Hamilton Intramatic 68? How much better is the Hamilton than the Lorier?


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

New arrival: Näcken Vintage Black

Superb service from Serious Watches as always.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Depends on what you mean by unnecessary.


Well, if there happened to be a hole in the case shaped for an HEV, might as well fill it, eh?


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well, if there happened to be a hole in the case shaped for an HEV, might as well fill it, eh?


Should just put another crown there so it can be worn on the left or right arm.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Starting the day off with this guy...









Sent from a van down by the river...


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

gokce said:


> New arrival: Näcken Vintage Black
> 
> Superb service from Serious Watches as always.


Looks awesome on that nato!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Jtragic said:


> Should just put another crown there so it can be worn on the left or right arm.


There was one watch like that a couple of years ago, that had crowns at 3 and 9. CdC twin crown. Not a great look, tbh.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 15056523


That's the money shot.

Sent from a van down by the river...


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Senorzebra said:


> While we're on the topic, what are your chronograph picks for the sub 1k and sub 2k price brackets? I'd also love to hear if anyone has experience on how incremental the differences are between differently priced chronographs. For example, (brand and provenance aside) how much better of a chronograph is the speedy than the Hamilton Intramatic 68? How much better is the Hamilton than the Lorier?




Since this topic of chronos was already covered earlier in the thread, I will jump in and give my own perspective.....affordable mechanical chronos tend to be too thick, as I have several Swiss made 7750 with this affliction, so me and my wallet have decided THIN quartz chrono of various ilk are the best affordable solution.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Senorzebra said:


> While we're on the topic, what are your chronograph picks for the sub 1k and sub 2k price brackets? I'd also love to hear if anyone has experience on how incremental the differences are between differently priced chronographs. For example, (brand and provenance aside) how much better of a chronograph is the speedy than the Hamilton Intramatic 68? How much better is the Hamilton than the Lorier?


Not sure if you meant to post this here, in this thread.

I'm not really into chronos anymore. They're all too chunky.

But, if I were, I like the very-hard-to-find Frederique Constant Peking-to-Paris, which is kinda-sorta a Rolex Daytona homage, as well as some of their Healey models, and the Straton Syncro.

The Speedy is iconic. The others you mentioned aren't. I doubt you'd notice a quality difference proportional to the price difference, but that's the nature of diminishing returns with watch prices.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well, if there happened to be a hole in the case shaped for an HEV, might as well fill it, eh?


Let me rephrase what I said about the SMP.

I hate the knob sticking out at 10 o'clock. My problem isn't with the HEV function, it's with that sort of execution.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those who've been awaiting the "Nearly New" section of the website, it's live, as well as our "Try it Before You Buy it" program.

https://nthwatches.com/collections/nearly-new

Details here - https://nthwatches.com/apps/help-center#!hc-how-does-the-try-it-before-you-buy-it-program-work


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Gilty pleasure? Sure, but with a bit less gilt, but no less pleasure.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

MikeyT said:


> Gilty pleasure? Sure, but with a bit less gilt, but no less pleasure.


Gilt-relief vs applied indices is a tough choice.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> For those who've been awaiting the "Nearly New" section of the website, it's live, as well as our "Try it Before You Buy it" program.
> 
> https://nthwatches.com/collections/nearly-new
> 
> Details here - https://nthwatches.com/apps/help-center#!hc-how-does-the-try-it-before-you-buy-it-program-work


PS - Watch for more pieces to be added soon. We've got a with-date Nacken Modern Blue and a Nazario Ghost on Dan's bench being checked out now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Update on those bezel inserts - 

We're still working on it. They're all packed up and labeled, ready to go to the warehouse for shipping. 

But, the warehouse has been taking for - wait for it - ever to process newly received inventory since Ronapalooza 2020 started. We've literally - not figuratively - had a box of inventory sitting there, waiting to be processed, since mid-day Friday. 

So...my best guess is, we'll have the bezel inserts shipped tomorrow, they'll get them Monday, and maybe they'll have them all ready to ship by next Friday.

So long as I can build out the shipping rates for them by that time, we can start taking orders then, or maybe early the following week.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Senorzebra said:


> While we're on the topic, what are your chronograph picks for the sub 1k and sub 2k price brackets? I'd also love to hear if anyone has experience on how incremental the differences are between differently priced chronographs. For example, (brand and provenance aside) how much better of a chronograph is the speedy than the Hamilton Intramatic 68? How much better is the Hamilton than the Lorier?


The Speedmaster is in a different league than the Hamilton. It's an in-house hand-wound movement. The Hamilton is a run of the mill Valjoux 7753, with an extended PR as I understand it, but otherwise presumably like any other 7750/53 based chronograph. The Lorier is a Seagull. Doc has already spent plenty of time talking about why he has no interest in making any more Seagull based HW or autochronos.

Most inexpensive autochronos use Valjoux movements, or their Sellita SW-500 equivalents, and are Seiko Tuna thick as a result. ETA 2894-2 based watches can be made _much_ thinner. Farer's models that use it for example are only 12.5mm thick, which is a good 2-3mm thinner than the typical Valjoux chrono.

The Lorier should be considered like the chronograph equivalent of a Seiko 5, in that you never service it. Just buy a new movement when it stops working, or a different watch. You can service a Valjoux based watch for $400, or replace the movement for $400. There's really no getting around that. If I wanted one, I'd probably wear it for 3-4 years, and then sell it. Make servicing it somebody else's problem. 2894-2 watches are going to be similarly expensive to service.

Meca-quartz is practical and reliable, but the registers make no sense to me. You get running seconds which is fine, a 24-hour hand slaved to the main hour hand (WHY??????) and then a 60-minute counter that's so small it's unreadable. Awesome. Bi-compax meca-quartz watches skip the running seconds, but keep that all important useless 24 hour hand. The Citizen Eco-drives are equally stupid, with an entire sub dial dedicated to an AM/PM indicator.

The right way to do a chronograph is a 30-minute counter and running seconds, or a 30-minute counter, an hour counter, and running seconds. Speedmasters, Daytonas, and El Primeros all work that way, as do pretty much all other mechanical chronographs. I have no idea why quartz chronos don't.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> The Speedmaster is in a different league than the Hamilton. It's an in-house hand-wound movement. The Hamilton is a run of the mill Valjoux 7753, with an extended PR as I understand it, but otherwise presumably like any other 7750/53 based chronograph. The Lorier is a Seagull. Doc has already spent plenty of time talking about why he has no interest in making any more Seagull based HW or autochronos.
> 
> Most inexpensive autochronos use Valjoux movements, or their Sellita SW-500 equivalents, and are Seiko Tuna thick as a result. ETA 2894-2 based watches can be made _much_ thinner. Farer's models that use it for example are only 12.5mm thick, which is a good 2-3mm thinner than the typical Valjoux chrono.
> 
> ...


Many quartz chronos *do*...check out the Certina HAQ, the Bulova, Gigandet, 1963 model Dan Henry, etc.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Why not just go over the damn top with a 1/1000th quartz chrono? 60m, 12hr, 1/10, 1/100, 1/1000. Plus sweeping seconds. 







It is god awfully thick though. My early watch buying lesson in checking dimensions for what I buy now.

Even with being so massive, it still gets some casual wrist time.


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## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

Thanks for the info, that was helpful.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Ill say, Monta killed a lot of desire for me to want expensive watches, they knock $2k out of the park just like NTH knocks it out of the park at under $1k.


Interesting way to put that. I think that is what I've been looking for. Curious what a next step up in quality, niceness, whatever could be like. I want to like Monta but something is holding me back. Would like to see what a no holds barred NTH would be like.

Have handled a few $1k+ watches. Mostly meh. Except a Rolex 36mm OP with blue 3,6,9 dial. That one felt special. That one sang to me. But, dang, the price. The price!!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

3WR said:


> Win: The Watcher
> Place: Rhorya
> Show:
> 
> Who is going to treat us to a picture of new Nacken Vintage Black out in the wild?!





gokce said:


> New arrival: Näcken Vintage Black
> 
> Superb service from Serious Watches as always.


Win: The Watcher
Place: Rhorya
Show: gokce - Looks great.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> PixlPutterMan said:
> 
> 
> > Ill say, Monta killed a lot of desire for me to want expensive watches, they knock $2k out of the park just like NTH knocks it out of the park at under $1k.
> ...


Now you've got me wondering... what would Doc make for a balls to the wall, all out, damn the masses and damn the price watch.....


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc’s a omega po guy. Been saying so for years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

gokce said:


> New arrival: Näcken Vintage Black
> 
> Superb service from Serious Watches as always.


Compare to version 1.0


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Many quartz chronos *do*...check out the Certina HAQ, the Bulova, Gigandet, 1963 model Dan Henry, etc.


Certina yes, the others have a 1/10 second counter, or the 24 hour hand. Unless I'm missing something. And many of those "get around" the problem of having to use tiny unreadable hash marks for the 60-minute counter by just removing half of them, which...seems to miss the point of a chronograph entirely. If you can't tell whether two or four minutes have elapsed because there aren't enough markers on the 60-minute sub dial, congrats, your chronograph is now less accurate than a fully indexed dive time bezel.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Interesting way to put that. I think that is what I've been looking for. Curious what a next step up in quality, niceness, whatever could be like. I want to like Monta but something is holding me back. Would like to see what a no holds barred NTH would be like.
> 
> Have handled a few $1k+ watches. Mostly meh. Except a Rolex 36mm OP with blue 3,6,9 dial. That one felt special. That one sang to me. But, dang, the price. The price!!
> 
> View attachment 15058005


Yeah I'm sorta in the same position. I like the Oceanking....don't love it. Certainly not enough to buy one. A flagship NTH "super sub" would be interesting. If I were designing it, but avoiding the usual Doc pet peeves, I'd give it more of a BB58 shaped case but in 41/48mm, one-piece coin-edge steel bezel, polished on the sides and brushed on top, or black PVD, a bit narrower than the current Sub bezel with a 30 or 30.5mm dial. Sapphire display caseback, and a custom rotor for the 9015 ala Visitor.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> There was one watch like that a couple of years ago, that had crowns at 3 and 9. CdC twin crown. Not a great look, tbh.
> 
> View attachment 15056703












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Interesting way to put that. I think that is what I've been looking for. Curious what a next step up in quality, niceness, whatever could be like. I want to like Monta but something is holding me back. Would like to see what a no holds barred NTH would be like.
> 
> Have handled a few $1k+ watches. Mostly meh. Except a Rolex 36mm OP with blue 3,6,9 dial. That one felt special. That one sang to me. But, dang, the price. The price!!
> 
> View attachment 15058005


That feeling of "mostly meh", I like to describe as finding that "it's just a watch".

That's not to say many of those watches aren't very nice. It's just to say that many of us who collect affordables have been spoiled by the quality of what we can get for what we spend, and the thought of spending a lot more tends to bring with it expectations of being "amazed" at what the extra money buys. But the reality is that there's very little out there that is truly amazing enough to meet our increased expectations.

I had an interesting talk about this with John Keil of Watch Gauge yesterday. I asked him if he'd rather have a Monta Ocean King for about $2k, or a Tudor BB58 for about $4k. We got into discussing quality for the price, as well as originality, features / specs / components, personal desires, etc.

He said he'd rather have the Monta, and $2k left over to spend on something else. I can see that. But for me, I like the style of the BB58 better (and the no-date). And yet, there are little things about the BB58 that don't thrill me, like the rivet bracelet, the aluminum bezel insert, and the case design. I'm not sure I like it enough at $2k, much less $4k. The Monta seems like a lot of watch for the money - when you compare it to the BB.

John's been really enamored with the Formex Essence, which is less than $800 on the strap (just under $1200 on the bracelet, but John doesn't like bracelets). I've gotten to see them in person, and I agree they're really nice watches. The Essence is a beautiful design, if a bit big for my tastes. The finishing was excellent. I think their case suspension system is a gimmick, but it's a cool gimmick, and as John noted, it does make the watch feel more comfortable and lighter on the wrist.

All of which, to me, just reinforces what I was saying earlier. Unlike comparing cars, where you'd never compare one to another that costs twice as much, it's different with watches. We just want what we want. Spending $2k more than the Monta to get a BB58 doens't make sense on paper, unless you just love the BB58, and don't really love the Monta.

Meanwhile, if the $800-$1200 Formex is what really floats your boat, it probably seems like a helluva bargain within that context, but not if you're comparing it to something similar at $400-$600.

---

As for a no-holds-barred NTH...pretty much everything we've made is no holds barred. The only restraints have been intended to balance the features we want against the need to keep the price under what I think the ceiling is for the brand (i.e., the limit of what I think anyone would spend for an NTH).

Everything we make is as good as we can possibly make it without pushing the price beyond where I think that ceiling is. If we want to start piling on more features, the price is going to go up quickly.

I've been looking into American production off and on for years. I started looking into it again a few months ago, before this coronavirus thing started, but since it started, I've been thinking about it even more.

In my mind, the plan is for a watch with ~80% American content, ~20% foreign content, broken down by cost. Most of that foreign cost would be a top-end movement. I'd like to get all the steel parts (case, bracelet, clasp) and crystal made here. We'd probably continue to source some of the smaller, more inexpensive parts (dials, handsets) overseas.

I don't yet know what the American content would cost. I'm waiting on a couple potential vendors to get back to me. But, my best guess is something like an NTH Sub or a DevilRay, with equal or better quality, is going to end up being a $3k watch. So, we'd be in that Monta-Doxa-Tudor range. Taking a look at RGM's site, their Pro Diver is $3700 on a strap, $4450 on the bracelet, so I think my numbers are pretty close.

That's a totally different business. Maybe a totally different brand.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Doc's a omega po guy. Been saying so for years
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do love me some PO action, especially that first gen co-axial, 2500 series, before they blimped up with the 8500.

I'd have made it thinner, without the HEV crown at 10, and given it a better bezel insert.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Compare to version 1.0


You're not going to be able to accurately compare pics of one to pics of the other. You'd have to have both in hand to see the difference. It's very subtle. I think the video I posted is as good a side-by-side comparison as you're going to get, unless you can see both in person, together.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> ...more of a BB58 shaped case but in 41/48mm, one-piece coin-edge steel bezel, polished on the sides and brushed on top, or black PVD, a bit narrower than the current Sub bezel with a 30 or 30.5mm dial. Sapphire display caseback, and a custom rotor for the 9015 ala Visitor.


BB58 case - I like our case design more than the BB58's. A lot more.

One-piece bezel - simplifies production, but severely limits the number of variations we can offer.

Polished bezel sides - because what you want is for the bezel to be harder to grip and turn?

Display back - adds thickness.

Custom rotor - why bother if the case back isn't transparent?

9015 - probably not going to be there in a higher-end / higher-priced model.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

If they made iPhone in US it would also cost 3-4k. 
Who cares where it’s made as long as someone good does the QC and can back up the watch if there are issues. Steel is steel unless you use 904 vs 316 then you can charge 15 times more, because its 904


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Mmmno, 904 is only 2.9 times more than 316.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Oberon II today. Thinking about trying it on a BOR bracelet. 









Sent from a van down by the river...


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah I'm sorta in the same position. I like the Oceanking....don't love it. Certainly not enough to buy one. A flagship NTH "super sub" would be interesting. If I were designing it, but avoiding the usual Doc pet peeves, I'd give it more of a BB58 shaped case but in 41/48mm, one-piece coin-edge steel bezel, polished on the sides and brushed on top, or black PVD, a bit narrower than the current Sub bezel with a 30 or 30.5mm dial. Sapphire display caseback, and a custom rotor for the 9015 ala Visitor.


I love my OK, really had to have it in hand to get to that point though. Finishing is as good as almost anything I have seen under $5k, except Grand Seiko.

I will admit growing up in STL, there is a part of me that just thinks its cool to have a watch from my hometown


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## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> There are a lot of watches above $700 that I would love to own.
> 
> I've made peace with the fact that not only will most "normal" people never understand why we'd spend so much on a watch, I can't even convince myself those watches are good value for the money.
> 
> ...


Nothing--and I mean _nothing_--screws up a watch design like a bad date window. And ugly date widows are everywhere (at all pricepoints).


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Thursday(?) morning fashion show.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Bloom said:


> That's the money shot.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I think there's room for occasional models outside the norm for a brand, at significantly higher pricing. Thinking of Zelos here. 

But the math... "Do I take the chunk of money and other resources to gamble on something very few have really asked for, or do I go with another run of as near a sure thing as I can realistically predict, which will turn over in 3 mos?"

I'm not in the market for a higher priced sub -- or other style watch, for that matter -- for much more than NTH subs currently retail. 

I handled a Tudor BB58 and a Bell & Ross BR-123 GMT at a dealer. I have zero bad to say about my NTH Scorpene Nomad, one of my favorite watches, but those other two... there were definitely tangible and intangible quality differences which made me think they were ostensibly better. But worth the price delta? Nope. Nope-ity nope-nope. Not in my world. Same thing with an Omega 2254 or even a Rolex Sub 14060 -- tried them, nice enough; not at those prices...

On the other end, there are microbrands like Monta, Ginault, Oak & Oscar. etc. doing higher end production for cheaper than the big brands. Again, probably great watches, maybe measurably better than an NTH. But at twice+ the cost of an NTH? Naw...

So maybe there's a market out there for a higher end NTH or separate brand (I'm gonna nominate "Timefaction"...), and there's probably a market for it, judging by the success of brands doing exactly that, but it doesn't include me...


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> ....So maybe there's a market out there for a higher end NTH _*or separate brand (I'm gonna nominate "Timefaction"...)*_, and there's probably a market for it, judging by the success of brands doing exactly that, but it doesn't include me...


Yeah, like that, kind of a buzzy name there, let's tweak it a wee bit further....Time Factory.... oh, the ironing.......






Cheerz,

Alan


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> Since this topic of chronos was already covered earlier in the thread, I will jump in and give my own perspective.....affordable mechanical chronos tend to be too thick, as I have several Swiss made 7750 with this affliction, so me and my wallet have decided THIN quartz chrono of various ilk are the best affordable solution.


I agree! I think a quartz chronograph is the way to go for an affordable chrono. Quartz is more durable and reliable along with being more accurate. When it comes to timing something with my chronograph, I want the most accurate reading of it. Chronographs are where I think quartz beats mechanical 9 times out of 10. Of course quartz is usually more accurate, durable, and reliable than mechanical watches when it comes to time only functions too, but it usually doesn't matter if I'm off 1/10 sec during the course of a day. When I'm timing something, it is usually more important. That's why I choose quartz. And the fact that they're also thinner which you mentioned is also a huge plus. I've wanted to get an older automatic Seiko chrono, but have stayed away from them because they seem huge.

I have a few Seiko quartz chronographs that I love. The best and most accurate chronograph that you can probably get for your money would be a Casio digital watch with a chrono function. They really are the best value watches if you want something durable and accurate. But for a nicer analog look, I go Seiko.

Out of the ones you posted, I've only owned the Bulova moonwatch. I found it to wear very thick and large on my wrist for a quartz chrono and didn't like the action on the pushers for the one I received. I returned it and bought another Seiko. =)

Dan Henry watches always have great design too, and the ones I've seen use reliable movements.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> I have no idea why quartz chronos don't.


Seiko has been making bad ass quartz chronos for a while now. Their 7aXX line of movements is the gold standard.

They also have had other cool quartz analog chronos. I have a funky 6M15 movement in one of mine that has a crazy way to do fractions of seconds different from a subdial.

And I have a couple other more recent quartz chronos from them that should fulfill what you want in a chronoph including my SNDF95






and one with an added (but useful IMO) feature of an alarm/second time zone SNA139








The SNDF wears larger than the SNA and heavier due to it being SS instead of titanium. Both great quartz chronograph watches that aren't too thick though. All from Seiko!


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Now you've got me wondering... what would Doc make for a balls to the wall, all out, damn the masses and damn the price watch.....


I thought we already went over this earlier in the thread. He wants to make a brass cased GMT with a swiss movement that also has smartwatch capabilities. Most likely in a dive style so it have a useless crown for the helium escape valve and a 690 click bezel.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The only specific thing that would be on my wishlist for a price-be-damned Sub would be a new bracelet. Existing is great. But I have really liked some others. The right heft, a really slick clasp, other things I can’t identify add up to a nice experience. Sort of like the stereotypical German car door closing feel. How important can that be? But when you feel it, you like it. 

Part of my curiosity is what other unknown pleasures are the spendy watches supposed to deliver. Or is it just basking in the glow of the big names. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> That feeling of "mostly meh", I like to describe as finding that "it's just a watch".
> 
> That's not to say many of those watches aren't very nice. It's just to say that many of us who collect affordables have been spoiled by the quality of what we can get for what we spend, and the thought of spending a lot more tends to bring with it expectations of being "amazed" at what the extra money buys. But the reality is that there's very little out there that is truly amazing enough to meet our increased expectations.
> 
> ...


Had to check out the Formex Essence for myself






and while I like the dial texture and layout, I have to say that the brand name (Formex) and bezel screws (bolts?) kill it for me. Just not my style. A brand name is pretty important. I really love the symmetry and meaning behind the NTH brand name. Formex sounds like a Mexican currency exchange market. I have nothing against Mexico either, it just seems tacky to me. Doesn't flow well or look as nice on a watch as another name could have. This is coming from a guy who owns two Pronto watches because I like the brand name and specs offered for their prices.














I agree with you, Doc, on the BB58. I wish all of the BB line was a bit thinner. Their side profiles look like blocks of steel. The riveted bracelet is a no go for me even though I understand it's supposed to have a vintage feel. I still can't justify spending $4k on one and have many others on my list I would buy before it. I have never handled a Monta, so I can't comment on it much. But I do like their style; very clean designs.



DuckaDiesel said:


> If they made iPhone in US it would also cost 3-4k.
> Who cares where it's made as long as someone good does the QC and can back up the watch if there are issues. Steel is steel unless you use 904 vs 316 then you can charge 15 times more, because its 904
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


And I agree that I don't care to pay 5X more for a "Made in America" watch. I care more about the price and quality than where something was made. I like the idea of supporting American business, but not enough to spend $3k on a watch. Let's just get more skilled American watchmakers! With all of the new mechanical watches being made, they will eventually need a service!

No offense, Doc. Just some input from a fan of your brands.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Here's a watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> If they made iPhone in US it would also cost 3-4k.
> Who cares where it's made as long as someone good does the QC and can back up the watch if there are issues. Steel is steel unless you use 904 vs 316 then you can charge 15 times more, because its 904
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


On the one hand, I've thus far agreed with that sentiment - if we can get the same quality somewhere else, for less, then why pay more, simply because a product is marked "Swiss", or "German", or "USA"?

For years, I've been convinced that the market sets the price its willing to pay for the product, and it's up to the sellers to justify that the product is worth that price. The "Swiss Made" thing flies in the face of that, because we can get equivalent quality for less, and yet, many are willing to pay more for "Swiss". Of course, that's the power of marketing.

I was likewise convinced that the only way to make American production feasible would be through extreme automation, enough to offset the 10x difference in labor cost between the US and China. Or, perhaps, we might be able to get close enough, if we also took into account the savings on shipping and tariffs, the ability to enforce contracts and protect IP, the convenience of dealing with domestic suppliers, increased quality, etc. I figured a 20% differential would be about the limit of what would make sense.

But, more recently, I've seen that there are customers who are willing to pay more for only incremental improvements in quality, or pay more for "USA", and this whole coronavirus thing has made me take a closer look at my business, and consider whether or not this is really the business I want to be in, long-term.

Not that I don't like making and selling watches. What I mean is - the constant "value for money" comparisons to other micros, all of whom are undercharging, particularly the new guys, and the Chinese factory brands; the challenge of constantly coming up with new designs that are going to be popular enough and sell quickly enough to rationalize the minimum production numbers; and all the challenges of dealing with Chinese production.

If you put a $3k made-in-America iPhone next to a $600 made-in-China iPhone, yeah, most people are going to opt for the lower cost alternative, in that sort of apples-to-apples comparison.

But watches aren't iPhones. Look at RGM, Monta, Oak & Oscar, Weiss, Frodshams, etc - these brands aren't constantly being put into beauty contests with $400 micros. There aren't as many direct comparisons to be made when you're RGM, or Frodshams.



X2-Elijah said:


> Mmmno, 904 is only 2.9 times more than 316.


I don't think he was being literal, regarding the actual materials cost. I believe he was referring to the hype around 904, because Rolex uses it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> The only specific thing that would be on my wishlist for a price-be-damned Sub would be a new bracelet. Existing is great. But I have really liked some others. The right heft, a really slick clasp, other things I can't identify add up to a nice experience. Sort of like the stereotypical German car door closing feel. How important can that be? But when you feel it, you like it.
> 
> Part of my curiosity is what other unknown pleasures are the spendy watches supposed to deliver. Or is it just basking in the glow of the big names.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've got some plans to make some subtle improvements to our bracelets for future productions.

But, if by "slick clasp", you mean something expandable, I don't think it's going to happen, and I wouldn't hold your breath.

Short version - they add cost, which adds to the price.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> Had to check out the Formex Essence for myself and while I like the dial texture and layout, I have to say that the brand name (Formex) and bezel screws (bolts?) kill it for me. Just not my style. A brand name is pretty important. I really love the symmetry and meaning behind the NTH brand name. Formex sounds like a Mexican currency exchange market. I have nothing against Mexico either, it just seems tacky to me. Doesn't flow well or look as nice on a watch as another name could have. This is coming from a guy who owns two Pronto watches because I like the brand name and specs offered for their prices.
> 
> I agree with you, Doc, on the BB58. I wish all of the BB line was a bit thinner. Their side profiles look like blocks of steel. The riveted bracelet is a no go for me even though I understand it's supposed to have a vintage feel. I still can't justify spending $4k on one and have many others on my list I would buy before it. I have never handled a Monta, so I can't comment on it much. But I do like their style; very clean designs.
> 
> ...


They're not bezel screws, or bolts. They're part of that case suspension system I mentioned. It's a two-part case. The central cylinder "floats" up and down within the frame-lugs. It's spring-loaded, or otherwise cushioned somehow, to allow the main part to slide up and down.









I'm not at all offended by anyone saying they're not down for a $3,000 watch from me. I generally assume 80%-90% of my current customers wouldn't be down. Like I've said, that's a completely different business than the one I'm in now.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> BB58 case - I like our case design more than the BB58's. A lot more.
> 
> One-piece bezel - simplifies production, but severely limits the number of variations we can offer.
> 
> ...


Fair on the case, that's entirely subjective. Re: bezel, true, but I really like the look of a one-piece, and it stands out in a sea (pun unintentional) of divers with ceramic, aluminum, and glass bezel inserts. I'm picturing something like the Avenger Seawolf bezel, but with a coin-edge, and without the Stargate bits. Your choice of steel or black PVD. Leave all of the other variants for the regular Sub.

Display back does indeed add thickness, but it also looks cool, and could still be plenty thin, just maybe not well under 12mm. Thin enough though not to really matter. These are divers after all, not hand-wound dress watches. I was thinking like a $900 NTH Sub"++" which is why I thought keep the 9015, but customize it with Geneva stripes and a fancy rotor. I suppose if you raise the price substantially above that, you could go Swiss, but then you're presumably stuck with Sellita?


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

3WR said:


> The only specific thing that would be on my wishlist for a price-be-damned Sub would be a new bracelet. Existing is great. But I have really liked some others. The right heft, a really slick clasp, other things I can't identify add up to a nice experience. Sort of like the stereotypical German car door closing feel. How important can that be? But when you feel it, you like it.
> 
> Part of my curiosity is what other unknown pleasures are the spendy watches supposed to deliver. Or is it just basking in the glow of the big names.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was messing around with bracelet/strap options on my watches last night and had a similar thought.

For comparison, I have a Halios on ginault, Monta OK, and a cward trident mk3.

The ginault, Monta, and cward all have adjustable clasps and I've grown to really enjoy that adjustability throughout the day.

The watch finishing on each was pretty similar. Def different levels but all within the same ballpark.



docvail said:


> I've got some plans to make some subtle improvements to our bracelets for future productions.
> 
> But, if by "slick clasp", you mean something expandable, I don't think it's going to happen, and I wouldn't hold your breath.
> 
> Short version - they add cost, which adds to the price.


I think you've literally nailed exactly what you need to for the price that people are willing to pay. A micro with these specs tops out at $700 imo and like you've stated before.

No reason to incrementally increase specs for increase cost. You won't get more customers, prob less.

If you had thoughts on creating something better, I think you're also on the right track in terms of needing to jump to the 2k price point, similar to Monta.

Once you get to that price point, all of the additional spec increases are needed and make sense. I actually don't think you'd need to add much to what your already doing in order to achieve a quality product.

I think the two main differentiators between you and Monta are the movement and the bracelet. Level of finishing is pretty similar. And I think with your knowledge, I have no doubt you'd pull off something really good.

Id create a completely new brand so as not to confuse people or get people asking questions related to sub line with new line.

The cost benefit analysis starts to make sense because your increasing costs in movement and bracelet by, approx 300-400?, but now your taking a watch selling for 700, and selling it for 1800.

The amount of competition in that space is exponentially less than what your currently facing. The two micro brands in thag space thag I actually like are Monta and tourby (with oak an Oscar a new player). Again, with your biz acumen, I believe you would def be able to carve out a solid market.

You also have the recognition in the industry where you wouldn't be starting from scratch but be on a similar playing field as Monta right away. I think Monta had grown in popularity as a primary result of being the first mover in that price point demographic.

Also, indirect benefit, would be that the new line would potentially add additional value to nth. Nth stays homage themed and using similar Chinese production, but the new brand would obviously be "Swiss made" or "made in US". Those qualities will have trickle down benefits that aren't fully known. Maybe there is synergy crested in different areas that are unforeseen atm. (ie people could purchase the clasp for the better brand bracelet and put it on their nth if they want...)

The more I think about it, the more I think that should be your play. Move away from competition. Differentiate. 11.5mm thick sub at 2k price with slew of new features? I'm game.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

All this mega-sub NTH talk has flipped my contrarian trigger...

How ‘bout an NTH that competes with Bostok...

Mineral glass...

7S26..

179 meter wr..

Plastic dive band..

Wobbly bezel..

Indestructible.

The watch that the ‘roaches will excavate from the ruins, and throw a retro pardy hard..


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I've looked at the Formex, and I really like it. The Dégradé especially. But I'm in the same corner as mgp123... the name kills it for me. The "screws" I'm cool with... but that name. Blah. Every time I say it I feel like I'm talking about the aliens in Enders Game. Formex, Formics, nah. 

Keep the name, just take it off the damn dial. Replace it with a logo. 

Formex isn't alone on the "No go due to stupid name" list I have going in my head. Though most of them are currently actual names. Chris Ward, Dan Henry, etc.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I love my OK, really had to have it in hand to get to that point though. Finishing is as good as almost anything I have seen under $5k, except Grand Seiko.
> 
> I will admit growing up in STL, there is a part of me that just thinks its cool to have a watch from my hometown


Finishing I agree, particularly on the bracelet. I think Monta arguably has the best bracelet of any micro. It's really a case shape thing for me, primarily. I don't like the OK's side profile at all, or its crown guards. That, and I don't like any of the color choices. My two "sorta black" dive watches (SKX-SARB059 and Oris Diver's 65) both have splashes of color in there - deep green in the SK-SARB, and that deep blue ring on the Oris that make them much more interesting to look at (for me) than solid matte or gloss black.

I think you could easily argue that the Monta is a better made watch than the Aquis, but I think the Aquis is more compelling, mainly because of all of those color choices. Imagine for example if Monta offered a dial color like this. It would look gorgeous with their black ceramic insert.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I've looked at the Formex, and I really like it. The Dégradé especially. But I'm in the same corner as mgp123... the name kills it for me. The "screws" I'm cool with... but that name. Blah. Every time I say it I feel like I'm talking about the aliens in Enders Game. Formex, Formics, nah.
> 
> Keep the name, just take it off the damn dial. Replace it with a logo.
> 
> Formex isn't alone on the "No go due to stupid name" list I have going in my head. Though most of them are currently actual names. Chris Ward, Dan Henry, etc.


I met the guys behind the brand once. They seem like good dudes...you know, for Europeans...

I got the Formex "story" once or twice. Not enough (or maybe not interesting enough) for me to remember it exactly, but the gist of it is that the brand kind of goes way back (a few decades?). The current owner's dad was a friend of the previous owner's, or something like that. The previous owner wanted to retire, the new, young guy owner bought it, and kept the name.

Like it, don't like it - it was an existing brand with an existing name, and existing IP, in that bounce-house case design. Maybe it sounds better in French, or whatever they speak. I can't say.

Bear in mind, you're hearing this from a guy who named his first brand "Lew & Huey".

I $hlt you not, when Capucho first heard it, he said (and I quote), "Nah, mate, it sounds like two guys drinking in a bar."

And as a drunken, ex-pat Brit of Portuguese descent living in Switzerland, he should know.

The point is - lots of dubious names out there. Surely "Formex" can't be the worst we've come across, not by a longshot.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> Nothing--and I mean _nothing_--screws up a watch design like a bad date window. And ugly date widows are everywhere (at all pricepoints).


Ball could change their name to "Bad Date Window Watch Company."


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Surely "Formex" can't be the worst we've come across, not by a longshot.


Oh it's far from the worst. As far as I'm concerned that title goes to Bagelsport.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Gilty gif.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The gauntlet has been laid down, gentlemen...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Regarding the discussion on glidelock bracelets, i have to say all three of these are top notch and very comfortable to wear.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Finishing I agree, particularly on the bracelet. I think Monta arguably has the best bracelet of any micro. It's really a case shape thing for me, primarily. I don't like the OK's side profile at all, or its crown guards. That, and I don't like any of the color choices. My two "sorta black" dive watches (SKX-SARB059 and Oris Diver's 65) both have splashes of color in there - deep green in the SK-SARB, and that deep blue ring on the Oris that make them much more interesting to look at (for me) than solid matte or gloss black.
> 
> I think you could easily argue that the Monta is a better made watch than the Aquis, but I think the Aquis is more compelling, mainly because of all of those color choices. Imagine for example if Monta offered a dial color like this. It would look gorgeous with their black ceramic insert.
> 
> View attachment 15060431


That dial is indeed stunning

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> The gauntlet has been laid down, gentlemen...


Yeah. You should pay the man for that work;-)
So cool


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just remembered. I had the strangest dream last night.

I got dragged into Tourneau, and someone tore apart a Panerai Submersible, to show me the click mechanism, and prove that it had more than 12 clicks. I was actually very impressed with it. Very complex engineering.

I was forced to come back here, and publicly admit that I was wrong about them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Yeah. You should pay the man for that work;-)
> So cool


He's been exacting his price from me for years...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads up on the Try it Before you Buy it Program...

We're down to just 4 pieces left (started with 10). We'll be adding two more soon, and I'm working on getting more. I may have underestimated the appeal.

If you want to take part in this program, or just get a sweet deal on a mint NTH, don't wait.

https://nthwatches.com/collections/nearly-new


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> They're not bezel screws, or bolts. They're part of that case suspension system I mentioned. It's a two-part case. The central cylinder "floats" up and down within the frame-lugs. It's spring-loaded, or otherwise cushioned somehow, to allow the main part to slide up and down.
> 
> I'm not at all offended by anyone saying they're not down for a $3,000 watch from me. I generally assume 80%-90% of my current customers wouldn't be down. Like I've said, that's a completely different business than the one I'm in now.


Interesting. I should have figured since you mentioned it before, but I honestly don't have the patience to read any more "wornandwound" or "hodinkee" articles. I feel like I'm watching the news. Same story, different channel. I'm finding their companies and authors more pretentious each day. You can clearly tell what the intentions of these "articles" and their "authors" are without much digging. And it's not to give a fair and honest review on the watch.

And I think you should stay right in the segment you're currently in, Doc! I'm happy to be able to get a great watch for an affordable price. =)



docvail said:


> I met the guys behind the brand once. They seem like good dudes...you know, for Europeans...
> 
> I got the Formex "story" once or twice. Not enough (or maybe not interesting enough) for me to remember it exactly, but the gist of it is that the brand kind of goes way back (a few decades?). The current owner's dad was a friend of the previous owner's, or something like that. The previous owner wanted to retire, the new, young guy owner bought it, and kept the name.
> 
> ...


I should have remembered that terrible name! It almost kept me from buying my Hew & Luey Phantom, but I had some love for the logo! The Orthos 300 didn't even have the H&L name or logo on the dial which made it the best to me. Just the logo on the crown. It's still a beaut and a (very comfortable) tank!


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Fair on the case, that's entirely subjective. Re: bezel, true, but I really like the look of a one-piece, and it stands out in a sea (pun unintentional) of divers with ceramic, aluminum, and glass bezel inserts. I'm picturing something like the Avenger Seawolf bezel, but with a coin-edge, and without the Stargate bits. Your choice of steel or black PVD. Leave all of the other variants for the regular Sub.
> 
> Display back does indeed add thickness, but it also looks cool, and could still be plenty thin, just maybe not well under 12mm. Thin enough though not to really matter. These are divers after all, not hand-wound dress watches. I was thinking like a $900 NTH Sub"++" which is why I thought keep the 9015, but customize it with Geneva stripes and a fancy rotor. I suppose if you raise the price substantially above that, you could go Swiss, but then you're presumably stuck with Sellita?
> 
> View attachment 15060339


I would be game for a watch with those specs around that price. I think adding a display back and a bit of extra finishing to the movements or using ones that were already finished to a higher standard so you could just drop them in would be worth an extra couple hundred. But I want every dial to be as beautiful as the Renegade! That Nacken Renegade has to be my favorite blue dial watch ever. I think it's one that will always remain in my collection.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Re: names, I don't generally have a problem with brands like Chris Ward or Dan Henry. I think it's hard to criticize them without also criticizing brands like Ulysse Nardin, or FP Journe. I mean even AP and Patek are just their founders' last names combined. That being said, I hate the name Carl F. Bucherer, and I'm not entirely sure why. Maybe because it sounds like a Champagne brand instead of a watch company?


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> View attachment 15060431


GP is such a slept on brand right now. Yours is gorgeous.

I would love to own or at least try out a Laureato one day. I have one vintage GP that was listed as a "Calatrava" when I bought it which I am not sure is accurate or not. It sure looks like a Patek Calatrava though. I've seen other GP Calatravas listed, but none looked as nice and simple as this one. I even love all of its flaws due to age and abuse. I think the patina almost adds to the dial. The crown has been replaced with a NOS one, and although I am not certain if it is completely legit I'm still happy to have it. Worth the gamble for a well-known name in the watch industry that I feel is underappreciated right now due to the over-appreciation of Rolex with their ridiculous second-hand prices (due to their suspect "supply [if you can call it that] strategies").


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: names, I don't generally have a problem with brands like Chris Ward or Dan Henry. I think it's hard to criticize them without also criticizing brands like Ulysse Nardin, or FP Journe. I mean even AP and Patek are just their founders' last names combined. That being said, I hate the name Carl F. Bucherer, and I'm not entirely sure why. Maybe because it sounds like a Champagne brand instead of a watch company?


I actually like Bucherer when it say "Bucherer" only on the dial. I don't like that their newer models say "Carl F. Bucherer" on them. I think "Bucherer" by itself sounds high end and adding "Carl" to it kind of takes that away.

It's also funny to hear people (including myself in the past) pronounce it wrong. I'd say "bu-CHER-rer" (with the "CHER" part pronounced just like the music artist) instead of "BU-kah-ray".


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> GP is such a slept on brand right now. Yours is gorgeous.


Oh I wish that GP 1966 was mine. I own four Seikos, an Oris, and an Aevig, definitely nothing in that league. I just used it as an example of a top shelf fume dial that I think could do wonders for a watch like the OK. When it comes to dials though, as nice as that GP is, nobody can beat H. Moser.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> Interesting. I should have figured since you mentioned it before, but I honestly don't have the patience to read any more "wornandwound" or "hodinkee" articles. I feel like I'm watching the news. Same story, different channel. I'm finding their companies and authors more pretentious each day. You can clearly tell what the intentions of these "articles" and their "authors" are without much digging. And it's not to give a fair and honest review on the watch.
> 
> And I think you should stay right in the segment you're currently in, Doc! I'm happy to be able to get a great watch for an affordable price. =)
> 
> I should have remembered that terrible name! It almost kept me from buying my Hew & Luey Phantom, but I had some love for the logo! The Orthos 300 didn't even have the H&L name or logo on the dial which made it the best to me. Just the logo on the crown. It's still a beaut and a (very comfortable) tank!


When I meet the guy behind Hew & Luey, I'm kicking his name-stealing, rhyming a$$...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> mgp123 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. I should have figured since you mentioned it before, but I honestly don't have the patience to read any more "wornandwound" or "hodinkee" articles. I feel like I'm watching the news. Same story, different channel. I'm finding their companies and authors more pretentious each day. You can clearly tell what the intentions of these "articles" and their "authors" are without much digging. And it's not to give a fair and honest review on the watch.
> ...


I think it was two guys. One named Huey, and I THINK the other guys name is Lewis. I heard they work for a local Philly News station as their day job.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Just a couple of random thoughts re. going significanctly up-price and off of the current production model:

- the $600 price point for NTH subs was the "sweet spot" for design x quality x price for a lot of people ... before the covir. I think due to this, some factors will become more "important" for people (place of origin, for instance) and some - less.
- turning to "swiss made" seems like a mistake. Too much exposure to being compared to the established swiss milquetoast by-the-barrel brands (all of swatch's upper end and so forth). And it loses any of the goodwill that post-covir people might lend to "locally made" efforts. In fact, in such times, I think brands with at least some local production and "radical openness" about that production will do better.
- Idk if quality increases will even do much, if anything, tbh. The current landscape for affordable watches is pretty cut-throat already, with "decent quality" being spread anywhere from $400 to $1000. From what I see with watches that come in and out (still flipping...), price honestly is no longer a good indicator of quality. Very many brands have reached that "good enough quality plateau" that we all wanted 5-8 years ago. And, nowadays, quality alone cannot justify a high price - at least not amongst the WUS-type audience. Imo any discussion based on quality or value-for-money, in that pricerange, is pretty much poison to brands operating in that space. Instead, that discussion has to turn into something along the lines of "yes, we do what we do, here's how, here's how much, and here's why we're standing apart from anything else. Not better or worse or same, but simply apart."
- If any brand is moving (or starting) uprange to the 2k,3k range, then, *realistically, WUS is mostly a dead end in terms of audience* - instead, one would need to pivot to possibly doing the meetup, podcast, and watchblog circle, and cultivating a wholly new audience. Tbh that audience might be a much better one than the constantly bickering WUS folks.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> I've got some plans to make some subtle improvements to our bracelets for future productions.


b-) |>



docvail said:


> But, if by "slick clasp", you mean something expandable, I don't think it's going to happen, and I wouldn't hold your breath.


I don't, not necessarily. I won't.



docvail said:


> Short version - they add cost, which adds to the price.


I'd entertain paying more to turn the bracelet up to 11.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Morning gilt.

View attachment DSC_8291.jpg


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Just a couple of random thoughts re. going significanctly up-price and off of the current production model:
> 
> - the $600 price point for NTH subs was the "sweet spot" for design x quality x price for a lot of people ... before the covir. I think due to this, some factors will become more "important" for people (place of origin, for instance) and some - less.


I think there's likely to be a backlash against goods made in China. I don't know if it will have a major effect on my business. I doubt it will. But, I expect it'll be something online trolls seize on, even more than previously.

It could be we'll see some sort of sanctions on China, which may include tariffs or similar. Again, I doubt that they'll be enough to move production elsewhere, but they certainly won't help, in the same way the previous rounds of tariffs didn't help (those of us who don't really have another very viable choice).

It's hard to imagine that the current situation will make point of origin less important to anyone, but perhaps it leads more people to accept the inevitability of products being made in China, or at least, not in our own countries.

Case in point, my wife added me to some "Manufactured in America" group on FB. The admin posted some link to a list of companies that "manufacture" in the USA. On the list - Shinola, which, as any watch geek knows, is very far from "Made in the USA". There were others on the list which didn't qualify, and I posted a comment as such.

Not that I single-handedly reframed the entire country's understanding with that one comment. But if there's more interest in goods made outside China, it may lead those who are interested to actually examining where the products we buy come from, which in turn may lead to their gradual understanding of the practical and economic realities of cheap labor.



X2-Elijah said:


> - turning to "swiss made" seems like a mistake. Too much exposure to being compared to the established swiss milquetoast by-the-barrel brands (all of swatch's upper end and so forth). And it loses any of the goodwill that post-covir people might lend to "locally made" efforts. In fact, in such times, I think brands with at least some local production and "radical openness" about that production will do better.


Agreed on all of that.

I'll add - I don't really trust Swiss vendors. Too many stories of "Swiss" parts coming from China.

And, my problems sourcing from China include the physical distance, the language barrier, the time-zone difference, the cultural differences, the increased challenge of seeking legal remedies in a dispute, etc. If I were to move production from China to Switzerland, it solves none of those problems.



X2-Elijah said:


> - Idk if quality increases will even do much, if anything, tbh. The current landscape for affordable watches is pretty cut-throat already, with "decent quality" being spread anywhere from $400 to $1000. From what I see with watches that come in and out (still flipping...), price honestly is no longer a good indicator of quality. Very many brands have reached that "good enough quality plateau" that we all wanted 5-8 years ago. And, nowadays, quality alone cannot justify a high price - at least not amongst the WUS-type audience. Imo any discussion based on quality or value-for-money, in that pricerange, is pretty much poison to brands operating in that space. Instead, that discussion has to turn into something along the lines of "yes, we do what we do, here's how, here's how much, and here's why we're standing apart from anything else. Not better or worse or same, but simply apart."


Agreed on most, if not all of that. What we can get from China is VERY good for what we pay, for certain.

But, there are some improvements I'd be seeking. They're not exactly less noticeable. I'd say they're less *frequently* noticeable.

Most mass produced cases are cold-forged. The tolerances (margin for error) are small enough to serve our needs, most of the time, but there are instances where we just can't achieve the precision which would be ideal.

For example, the other day someone here suggested we could get 120 clicks with a 60-detente bezel, by offsetting one of two click-balls by half the ciick-balls' diameter. I wouldn't be confident trying to achieve that with Chinese production, knowing what I know about their tolerances.

Likewise, I've had WAY too many cases where getting a spring bar to correctly seat in the lug holes was a herculean trial. And, as I just related last week, we've had other challenges, like the issue with the bezel retention ledge on the case. I could list a dozen little things like that, which have come up over the years.

It's the difference between "you work FOR me", and "we work together". I want a manufacturer that understands the difference. If it's my name on the door, I'm the boss, and the boss hates surprises.

Are you, the customer, likely to notice stuff like that? Not really. You'd only notice those things when something is NOT right, not when it IS right. But for me, the guy who has to deal with the problems that come up some percentage of the time, if I can reduce that percentage to virtually zero, it's an improvement for me.

From the customers' perspective, it becomes less a matter of product quality, and more a matter of experience with the brand. Every time a customer of mine has a problem with a watch, even if we go above and beyond to handle it in the best possible way, that's still not as good an experience as not having any problem at all.



X2-Elijah said:


> - If any brand is moving (or starting) uprange to the 2k,3k range, then, *realistically, WUS is mostly a dead end in terms of audience* - instead, one would need to pivot to possibly doing the meetup, podcast, and watchblog circle, and cultivating a wholly new audience. Tbh that audience might be a much better one than the constantly bickering WUS folks.


I don't agree with all this, necessarily.

There definitely wouldn't be much if any audience here in F71. But, there are small-volume, higher-priced, boutique brands which get traction online - Triton, RGM, Oak & Oscar, Monta, Weiss, Chris Ward, Damasko - just to name a few.

What I do agree with is that these brands have been successful in getting beyond the beauty-contest sorts of comparisons that get made among micros and mainstream brands selling for $500, give or take.

Comparing an NTH to another watch with the same or similar specs and components, made in the same places, is easier than comparing an RGM to something else. There really isn't anything to compare an RGM to, because there's nothing directly comparable.

You can compare their 300 Pro Diver to another $4500 diver, like a Tudor Pelagos, but only the RGM is "American", and whereas Tudor cranks out the Pelagos by the thousands, RGM only makes about 300 *watches* per year. There's a customer who wants that sort of exclusivity.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> I'd entertain paying more to turn the bracelet up to 11.


You would, maybe, but my calculus is (making the numbers up) - every 1% increase in quality/functionality that comes with a 5% increase in price pushes away 10% of our customers, and a 5% increase in component complexity comes with a 20% increase in component failures / support requests.

I can't rationalize the investment of time, energy and money put into sourcing a "better" clasp than the one we have, knowing the result would likely be longer/thicker than what we have (bringing complaints about the clasp's length and thickness), and more failures (more support requests, more parts replacements, more shipping costs), a 10% decrease in sales volume, etc.

You'd be willing to pay more, perhaps. I wouldn't be able to build enough of the cost into the price, and it'd be a loser.

The alternative is going full-bore for something REALLY better, but now you're talking about an even bigger increase in price, which then brings houls from the crowd, because it's too much for "only" a microbrand, with "only" a Miyota inside, and "only" a Chinese-made-case, and "I can get the same components, specs and quality from some other brand, for less".

Do I have to explain why I'd rather you just kill me now?

You're not getting a slicker clasp.

Let it go, please.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Finishing I agree, particularly on the bracelet. I think Monta arguably has the best bracelet of any micro. It's really a case shape thing for me, primarily. I don't like the OK's side profile at all, or its crown guards. That, and I don't like any of the color choices. My two "sorta black" dive watches (SKX-SARB059 and Oris Diver's 65) both have splashes of color in there - deep green in the SK-SARB, and that deep blue ring on the Oris that make them much more interesting to look at (for me) than solid matte or gloss black.
> 
> I think you could easily argue that the Monta is a better made watch than the Aquis, but I think the Aquis is more compelling, mainly because of all of those color choices. Imagine for example if Monta offered a dial color like this. It would look gorgeous with their black ceramic insert.
> 
> View attachment 15060431


I long for a steel bezel OK with the Opalin silver dial.

Im pretty plain when it comes to watches to the colors for me arent a big deal, but I get where you are coming from.

Only think I would really change on the bracelet is to make the center links ever so slightly thicker than the outer links. I dont like feeling the sharp edge on the inside of the outer links.

I have the V1 gilt dial (still has the fully lumed bezel) the gold and the hint of red text are enough color for me


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> You would, maybe, but my calculus is (making the numbers up) - every 1% increase in quality/functionality that comes with a 5% increase in price pushes away 10% of our customers, and a 5% increase in component complexity comes with a 20% increase in component failures / support requests.
> 
> I can't rationalize the investment of time, energy and money put into sourcing a "better" clasp than the one we have, knowing the result would likely be longer/thicker than what we have (bringing complaints about the clasp's length and thickness), and more failures (more support requests, more parts replacements, more shipping costs), a 10% decrease in sales volume, etc.
> 
> ...


Id be happy with a stamped clasp shell that still has milled arms. The thinness of the case and bracelet deserves a slimmed clasp 

And I think your math is off, I watched Anchorman and they said 60% of the time it works every time.


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## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing--and I mean _nothing_--screws up a watch design like a bad date window. And ugly date widows are everywhere (at all pricepoints).
> ...


Is it just me, or did Ball's date window placement get much worse in the past few years? Their slightly older models mostly seemed to have it in more or less conventional spots (apart from the occasionally gratuitous "between 4/5" placement).


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Re: "backlash" against chinese goods.
It's something I've been thinking about a bit the last few days in terms of my cycling obsession. I built up a new mountain bike back in December and the $3000 frame is made in china (not unusual at all). I didn't really consider it a negative because the company has a great warranty and reputation for customer support. But I thought back to when I was considering ordering a frame made in the US for about the same money. Problem was, I couldn't demo the bike before making the commitment, so I went with the one I could demo and loved. Then I pondered how much more it would cost me to build a similar mountain bike without ANY chinese made parts. Turns out it's not that difficult, just some parts are considerably more expensive. At the moment I'm happy to say that most of my components are made in japan, uk and usa. But I wonder if I should have given that other frame company a try.

As far as watches go, I don't have the will anymore to spend the kind of money that assures me of a 100% Swiss made product. Even omega has been said to be having bracelets made in china. Rolex appears to be 100% swiss. But what else is there if I wanted to avoid anything made in whole or in part in china? Japanese watches... But can we really be assured of content origins at anything below the grand seiko level? Or you go vintage... if you're buying a "swiss" watch from prior to say, 2000, you can be pretty sure that all the parts are from European sources, right?


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

A good watch is a good watch, I hardly care where it comes from anymore. I have had plenty of "swiss" junkers


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

If you want a more comfortable bracelet with adjustability, you guys need to try out the beads of rice bracelet that comes on the Antilles. The clasp is thicker, but it wears more comfortably and has a ratcheting extension clasp. I still prefer the Sub's oyster over it because I like something with less presence, but I like both for each of their positive attributes.
















Maybe Doc could offer that bracelet as an accessory in addition to the bracelets he offers right now. I am not sure if that is still an option for him with his supplier/manufacturer, but I see NTH offers a BOR without the extension clasp. Is it possible to get the same bracelet that is on the Antilles and other Tropic models, Doc?

And here's a shot of the dial for good measure









Dat fully lumed dial and dem skeleton hands doe! No need to set the time to 10:10 to get a good picture.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Oh it's far from the worst. As far as I'm concerned that title goes to Bagelsport.


Age*Girl is a favorite of mine.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I know we dont say the G word around here, but the Ocean Rover bracelet fits well and has all you could want in a bracelet.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

For more than half a century, or more, there's been a Buy American sentiment. But when it comes to prying open a wallet, the vast majority of Americans vote for Made Elsewhere, Cheaper. 

The previously mentioned bicycle industry is a great example. I can get a Made in the USA high-end Trek carbon fiber wonderbike, maybe for, like $8k... but the bikes I was putting together this AM, retailing at less than $1k, were all made in China. 

In the 70s, the better bikes were European manufacture and the cheap crap was coming in at discounted prices from Japan. There was a booming US bicycle manufacturing base, filling out the mid-range. Then Japanese bike prices started rising as quality got better. The low-end stuff started getting manufactured in China. Now, of course, quality and prices are rising with Chinese-produced bikes and manufacturing is moving elsewhere.

Companies large and small are not going to disabuse you of the notion that manufacturing shut down in China is coming back to the USA. Because it's not. It will go to other cheap labor and lax regulatory areas like SE Asia, India, Mexico, etc. If you look at the motorcycle global motorcycle market, 400cc and lower, you'll see a lot of manufacturing in India and Thaland. Even for bigger bikes, like 650cc, you'll see name brands like BMW, KTM, and even Harley-Davidson outsourcing manufacturing to India.

Back to bikes, regardless of where the frame is made, filling it out with components will also be a global affair. Not sure if Campagnolo is still all Euro/Italy manufacture, but the two industry leaders by a long shot, SRAM (formerly USA) does most production in Taiwan, and Shimano (formerly Japan) has a lot of stuff produced in Malaysia.

There's still a US bicycle industry, but it is mainly small-shop customs and short runs. I.e. microbrands. I actually have two made in USA vintage frames -- a 70s Schwinn, and a late-80s Cannondale, along with a Made in China Jamis, and a hand-made in USA Geekhouse custom. The last two are worth comparing -- steel frame on the Jamis, I can probably buy something of similar quality also made in China, for less than $200. Geekhouse custom frames, when I was sourcing one, was $2000. Now, the Geekhouse was something I welded together myself, from TruTemper (USA) tubing, right in Boston MA. 

(I paid more for the experience than the custom frame or name attached to it, but that's a different story. And TruTemper no longer produces bicycle tubing, preferring to go with their cash-cow specialty, golf club shafts...)

With Trek, I can get a cheap bike made in China, an expensive bike ($3-6k) made in China, or a very expensive ($8k+) bike made in the USA. Quality goes up, weight goes down as you pay more. And right now, they are out of stock on most of their current models due to manufacturing delays in China. But it's not like they are going to sell a lot more $8k bikes to make up the difference, and it's not like they can bring manufacturing back to the USA and still sell quality bikes for $500-600. If they are looking somewhere other than China for such production, you can be sure it's not the USA.

So maybe there will be backlash against Made in China, but only to the point that US manufacturers move production elsewhere. In my world (trade book publishing), that has meant Malaysia, South Korea, and even Estonia/Latvia. But we're still producing some product in China and we're still doing the bulk of our work in the USA.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I know we dont say the G word around here, but the Ocean Rover bracelet fits well and has all you could want in a bracelet.


Tried it, didn't like it. Was told that the OR2 would be better, but once bitten... My issues were not enough adjustment links on either side of the clasp, and a too-long clasp. The glidelock feature just wasn't enough to make up for its other shortcomings. Plus I like the NTH 3-link bracelet better than the OR oyster style 1-link. YMMV...


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

It doesn't matter to me where anything is made as long as I get a quality product at a price I feel warrants it. This is why I like NTH. They're open about what their brand is. I am not so much a fan of other new brands as well as other old names that have been resurrected and come up with bs stories to warrant their inflated prices. I don't mind if Doc started a new brand that was pricier if the watches' specs were also improved (although I am very happy with quality of the watches he produces now and in the past). I just don't want some bs storyline added to the new brand which I'm sure Doc wouldn't do. And while I think the market is there right now, Doc will have to do a cost analysis to see if it is worth going into at this point in time. Who knows what awaits us in the near future with failing economies and hyperinflation looming in the US. THAT'S WHY I'M INVESTING IN MORE WATCHES! ;-) b-) :-d


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> Is it just me, or did Ball's date window placement get much worse in the past few years? Their slightly older models mostly seemed to have it in more or less conventional spots (apart from the occasionally gratuitous "between 4/5" placement).


I'm not enough of a "ball expert" (har) to say for sure, but a lot of the new ones are just ghastly. Who puts a date at 1??


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

No one puts a date at 1, but that makes it an interesting thing to do! That's the best looking of that group, IMO.

But all of those would look better without a date. The resistance of the majors to making no-date watches is a big reason why I love micros.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm not enough of a "ball expert" (har) to say for sure, but a lot of the new ones are just ghastly. Who puts a date at 1??
> 
> View attachment 15063033
> 
> ...





Avo said:


> No one puts a date at 1, but that makes it an interesting thing to do! That's the best looking of that group, IMO.
> 
> But all of those would look better without a date. The resistance of the majors to making no-date watches is a big reason why I love micros.


Not only are they oddly placed, they split up the day and date. That's just... Weird 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Is it just me, or did Ball's date window placement get much worse in the past few years? Their slightly older models mostly seemed to have it in more or less conventional spots (apart from the occasionally gratuitous "between 4/5" placement).


Say what you want about that placement, Ball's bigger sin is using a white date wheel under a black dial with the window between 4 and 5.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> ...if you're buying a "swiss" watch from prior to say, 2000, you can be pretty sure that all the parts are from European sources, right?


2001 seems like it would be a watershed year.

A lot of what goes on in the industry traces its origins back to the quartz crisis. Nick Hayek Sr's big rescue plan for the Swiss brands was to decouple their front office ops (design, sales, marketing) from back office (production). Prior to that, most brands were MUCH more vertically integrated than they are today.

I can't say for sure how quickly the transition from all in-Switzerland production to mostly-in-China production happened. The Hayek plan went into effect in the late '80's, but China didn't join the World Trade Organization until 2001.

So, it may be the case that anything "Swiss Made" prior to 2001 is likely to be more Swiss, but then again, I think the "Swiss Made" rules were initially adopted in 1992, so it seems to me that the "Swiss" content of "Swiss" watches was a concern at least that far back.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> Maybe Doc could offer that bracelet as an accessory in addition to the bracelets he offers right now. I am not sure if that is still an option for him with his supplier/manufacturer, but I see NTH offers a BOR without the extension clasp. Is it possible to get the same bracelet that is on the Antilles and other Tropic models, Doc?


The *bracelets* are not compatible. The bracelets from the Tropics won't fit the Subs, or vice-versa. We don't have any Tropics bracelets for sale in any case, and I don't plan to order more.

The *clasps* from the Tropics would (or at least, I think they should) fit the Subs' bracelets, but not vice-versa. The Subs's clasp will not fit the Tropics' bracelet, due to the shape of the Tropics' clasp-links.

That expansion clasp we used on the Tropics and the DevilRay was the single biggest area of complaint among people who bought either model. While the expansion feature may seem convenient, people complained about the thickness and length of the clasp, and its sharp corners.

I've also found that those clasps tend to pop open more frequently than the double-locking style clasp used on the Subs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> For more than half a century, or more, there's been a Buy American sentiment. But when it comes to prying open a wallet, the vast majority of Americans vote for Made Elsewhere, Cheaper.
> 
> ...
> 
> So maybe there will be backlash against Made in China, but only to the point that US manufacturers move production elsewhere. In my world (trade book publishing), that has meant Malaysia, South Korea, and even Estonia/Latvia. But we're still producing some product in China and we're still doing the bulk of our work in the USA.


Yep. I can confirm.

When I toured vendors' factories in 2018, my tour guide predicted that in 10 years, none of those vendors would be in business any more. All the production is supposed to move to Vietnam or Thailand.

My prediction - we'll still see goods made in China, but the costs and quality will be higher than what you can get in Vietnam or Thailand. You'll be happy if you can afford a good, Chinese-made watch then.

For me - first, if I'm going to be there, first I need to get there, which means bridging the gap between now and then, when the interim might see a big backlash against Chinese production.

Second - I may just say "chuck it all", and opt to go the high-end, made-in-America boutique route. There's a certain appeal in imagining a smaller-volume, more specialized business.

In a perfectly idealized world, we'd make everything here, everyone would make more money, and could afford to buy American. I don't foresee that ever happening though, because there will always be some guy who'll be willing to get it made cheaper somewhere else, and always a guy willing to buy from him. That puts pressure on all businesses to seek out cheaper production.

All of which goes back to that old "I can get the same components and specs for less" debate. There's always a way to shave a little cost by sacrificing a little quality, in ways that most customers won't notice, at least not right away. But, that's a rapidly declining and extremely slippery slope. Pretty soon, it's all crap quality, made at the lowest cost.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Only as an additional thought on the above...

The older I get, the fewer things I really want, but the more I want those fewer things to be of higher quality.

My wife wants an outdoor sectional sofa for our rear patio. The one she wants is $600. Yesterday she showed me a used, non-sectional, outdoor sofa being sold locally, for $200.

I know what's going to happen. She does this all the time. She wants to buy the cheaper one (of whatever), because we're "saving money" (and she can get it sooner), but then she gets tired of it, or it breaks, or wears out, and we just end up getting the more expensive one anyway.

I told her, forget the $200 one. You're just going to decide we need the $600 one in a year or two. Let's just get the $600 one, and save that $200.

I've pissed away too much money buying stuff that I didn't really want, because it seemed like a cheaper version of what I really wanted, and was all I could afford, but wasn't good quality, and ultimately didn't last.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> I've pissed away too much money buying stuff that I didn't really want, because it seemed like a cheaper version of what I really wanted, and was all I could afford, but wasn't good quality, and ultimately didn't last.


The same can be said about this hobby.


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

Chris, Your Beads of "Rice" bracelet is one of the most comfortable I've owned. Any chance of making a sliding style micro adjustable clasp? I think if you were able to make (especially if it were sold as a clasp option that could work for other 18mm bracelets) you could make a fortune with it. Raven, Helson and Strapcode make one but it's a bit thick. The best is probably Chris Ward followed by Mido - very slim -low profile. Of course Rolex and Ginault's slide lock which is pretty long and not as fast to adjust. Omega Seamaster or Tudor's spring tension are nice examples but a competitor to Strapcode (that everyone just puts their logo on) with better smooth finishing (no sharp bits) and a lower profile would be great and something the watch world has been needing.


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

Did you miss this?


docvail said:


> You're not getting a slicker clasp.
> 
> Let it go, please.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> You would, maybe, but my calculus is (making the numbers up) - every 1% increase in quality/functionality that comes with a 5% increase in price pushes away 10% of our customers, and a 5% increase in component complexity comes with a 20% increase in component failures / support requests.
> 
> I can't rationalize the investment of time, energy and money put into sourcing a "better" clasp than the one we have, knowing the result would likely be longer/thicker than what we have (bringing complaints about the clasp's length and thickness), and more failures (more support requests, more parts replacements, more shipping costs), a 10% decrease in sales volume, etc.
> 
> ...


No problem. :-! Consider it gone.

Subs are great. There are a couple more Subs I'm interested in and would wear them happily exactly as is. The clasps are very, very nice. As a matter of fact, I have the tool out on my desk right now to put the bracelet back on of my Skipjack - one of my favorite Subs. One of my favorite watches, period.

My larger point over a few posts was that I'd like to see what a $1k+ NTH watch would be like. (Miyota movement and Chinese made parts would be absolutely fine with me.)


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> ^Only as an additional thought on the above...
> 
> The older I get, the fewer things I really want, but the more I want those fewer things to be of higher quality.
> 
> ...


I have a different outlook on this, especially this example.

Sometimes I can get a better quality product for cheaper when I buy something that is older and "used" compared to buying a new product that may be more expensive. I was looking at getting some new hair trimmers after my Wahl beard trimmer took a sh*t. The $60 and up brand my buddy sent me had tons of bad reviews all over which showed me that while they may look nice; they're really just as cheaply made as other low cost trimmers with better packaging and branding. I can attest that furniture was made a lot better in the past too since I own some that my family has had for generations. They actually used solid wood instead of particle board bs which is common now. Having been a mover for a part of my life, I can tell you that most particle board furniture will not make it past 2 separate moves. That's why moving companies with any sense don't cover that stuff. I remember people getting mad at us for their dressers crumbling when we're moving a dresser (still full of clothes) that was already wobbly when it was just sitting there.

I am a cheapo at heart, but I also like quality. I started shaving with double edge razors and straight razors a few years ago because the quality of shave I can get with one is 10X better than I got after a weeks worth of use with a Schick Quattro (or Cinco/Seis/Siete/etc.).

I ended up straight razoring my head down to bald during this quarantine out of boredom and think I will continue to do so in the future instead of buying a new pair of trimmers until I find some in the store that look halfway decent for a good price. I think I look better with hair on my head instead of straight scalp, but I can deal with it for a couple weeks until my hair grows back out to what I'd usually trim it to. I'll get a couple more weeks before I need to cut it again out of doing it like this too. Looking at my scalp for a couple weeks every few months (or even years sometimes) when I decide to chop my hair off will not make me 1/100th as pissed as I am when I but something for even $20 and it breaks after a year or two when I expected to be able to use it for around a decade.

Now I just have to figure out a way to trim my bushy eyebrows every few months. I don't think I can pull of the no-eyebrows look. Anyone have any ideas? :think:


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Tycho Brahe said:


> Chris, Your Beads of "Rice" bracelet is one of the most comfortable I've owned. Any chance of making a sliding style micro adjustable clasp? I think if you were able to make (especially if it were sold as a clasp option that could work for other 18mm bracelets) you could make a fortune with it. Raven, Helson and Strapcode make one but it's a bit thick. The best is probably Chris Ward followed by Mido - very slim -low profile. Of course Rolex and Ginault's slide lock which is pretty long and not as fast to adjust. Omega Seamaster or Tudor's spring tension are nice examples but a competitor to Strapcode (that everyone just puts their logo on) with better smooth finishing (no sharp bits) and a lower profile would be great and something the watch world has been needing.


I have all 3 adjustable clasps (ginault, cward, Monta) and I'd say the ginault is my favorite. The cward and Monta are an even second until I get more wrist time with both.

The difference between all 3 though is splitting hairs and at the end of the day, it's an awesome feature that I've become spoiled with.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> Did you miss this?


Weird! Yes I did miss that! I hadn't been caught up and went back and read the past weeks posts and thought well that's interesting I guess I'm not the only one thinking about how great a slider is. OK Doc I guess I'll let it go. I didn't realize you made one (Antilles). Like Ryan said once you have them it's hard to get used to not having them ...as at some point during the day it's too tight.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> No problem. :-! Consider it gone.
> 
> Subs are great. There are a couple more Subs I'm interested in and would wear them happily exactly as is. The clasps are very, very nice. As a matter of fact, I have the tool out on my desk right now to put the bracelet back on of my Skipjack - one of my favorite Subs. One of my favorite watches, period.
> 
> ...


We could drop a Soprod M100 movement inside.

Boom.

$1000 NTH Sub.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Why don't all you guys pining for an expansion clasp just go buy the clasp you want and fit it to your stock bracelet?

Boom.

Problem solved.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Why don't all you guys pining for an expansion clasp just go buy the clasp you want and fit it to your stock bracelet?
> 
> Boom.
> 
> Problem solved.


I'm guessing they wouldn't know where to get a good quality one that fits well without a bit of digging. And it's nice to have the NTH branding on every part of your NTH watch IMO. If it wasn't a hassle, you could sell it as a part in the accessories so people could fit it themselves. From the looks of this thread, I'm sure you'd sell quite a few. You might still get complaints, but that comes with mostly all sales of anything.

Maybe even sell an upgraded oyster bracelet with a similar clasp or just the upgraded clasp itself as well. Less investment and you could possibly make a good return % (I know I'm speculating here since I don't know your costs) without as much possibility of issues since I feel like clasps don't have as much potential to give you as many problems as mechanical watch movements (i.e. less parts). Just a thought since it doesn't seem like going into a new higher-end, higher cost brand might be the right move at this point time IMO (with all of the economic uncertainty and all); and most people on here seem pretty happy with your watches overall. Just owners mostly asking for small improvements when comparing bracelets since there isn't anything wrong with the ones you use now.

I also have some ideas for new designs, but I'd feel a bit too pushy pitching them right now. ;-)


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> ^Only as an additional thought on the above...
> 
> The older I get, the fewer things I really want, but the more I want those fewer things to be of higher quality.
> 
> ...


I find that I also feel similarly about more and more things as I get older. I have a Miele vacuum for example that costs an absurd amount of money. However, I expect to get 20-30 years out of it. My Blendtec is similarly expensive, but it's a commercial model designed to be able to handle daily work in coffee shops and restaurants. I use it maybe once a day, so it will likely last forever.

I have a couple of Shun knives that cost as much as like a 12-piece set would from Bed Bath & Beyond. That 12-piece set comes with a bunch of crap I don't need, and low-grade steel that will wear and dull easily. The Shuns should stay sharp for a few years, and when they do need a touch up, Shun HQ here in OR will sharpen them for me, for free, for the life of the knives. I'm a firm believer in when you need a thing, buy a good one, and then you don't have to worry about it.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> We could drop a Soprod M100 movement inside.
> 
> Boom.
> 
> ...


If you also added that extension clasp, I'm sure youd have a good amount of people buy it...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> I'm guessing they wouldn't know where to get a good quality one that fits well without a bit of digging. And it's nice to have the NTH branding on every part of your NTH watch IMO. If it wasn't a hassle, you could sell it as a part in the accessories so people could fit it themselves. From the looks of this thread, I'm sure you'd sell quite a few. You might still get complaints, but that comes with mostly all sales of anything.
> 
> Maybe even sell an upgraded oyster bracelet with a similar clasp or just the upgraded clasp itself as well. Less investment and you could possibly make a good return % (I know I'm speculating here since I don't know your costs) without as much possibility of issues since I feel like clasps don't have as much potential to give you as many problems as mechanical watch movements (i.e. less parts). Just a thought since it doesn't seem like going into a new higher-end, higher cost brand might be the right move at this point time IMO (with all of the economic uncertainty and all); and most people on here seem pretty happy with your watches overall. Just owners mostly asking for small improvements when comparing bracelets since there isn't anything wrong with the ones you use now.
> 
> I also have some ideas for new designs, but I'd feel a bit too pushy pitching them right now. ;-)


I get that this is a discussion that comes up every few months, or weeks, but I swear it seems to be coming up every few pages now.

My MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces. I can't just whip up 50. When I had a couple dozen BOR bracelets for the NTH Subs for sale, and they sold out in a few hours, I had fifty guys crawling up my a$$ asking for me to make more. So I made more. 300 more. I'm not sure how many we've sold, but we still have more than 100 available, so I know it wasn't 300.

"From the looks of this thread, you'd sell a lot of them"...please, don't get me started. If I actually made a sale for every guy who said something like, "I'd buy one right now, if you made it," I'd have made a lot more sales. Talk is cheap when a guy is imagining his perfect watch/bracelet/clasp. Put it in front of him, suddenly he hasn't got the money.

"An upgraded oyster bracelet" - the current Subs' bracelet is upgraded, from the v.1. You're welcome.

"I'm guessing they wouldn't know where to get a good quality one..." it's almost as if everyone just assumes I know where to find the perfect clasp, which will please everyone, and won't be too thick, or too long, or too expensive, or too prone to failure. I went to HK in 2016 and 2018, with finding a better clasp, if not the perfect clasp, near the top of my agenda. I didn't find it.

Is anyone here a patent attorney, who wants to do some pro-bono work for me? As far as I know, Rolex has a patent on the glidelock clasp. Do I really need to explain why I don't want to invite a lawsuit from Rolex? If an IP attorney wants to GUARANTEE me that I'm safe to use a glidelock, AND agree to defend me at no charge if I get sued, AND I can source one that I think is good enough, AND it doesn't cost any more than the clasp we're using now, then, MAYBE, I'll consider it.

Until then, y'all can believe me, it ain't happening, so y'all can stop asking. Trust me on this. I'm not lying, or just kidding around. There will be no consideration whatsoever given to glidelock clasps for the Subs.

Guys, please, let me decide what products make sense for me to sell. If this business was easy, everyone would be making money doing it. I have to carefully weigh every component choice and design decision. I think my record shows I'm pretty good at coming to the right decision.

If you want aftermarket bracelets and clasps, there are plenty to be had out there.

Strapcode has extension clasps here - https://www.strapcode.com/collections/divers-clasp/products/parts-nt-clasp-017b

Here's an old-gen "glidelock" on eBay, for $49 - https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGH-QUALI...438047?hash=item212be65c9f:g:OCMAAOSwi2lZikGb

Here's the legit, top-end, current-gen, Rolex style glidelock, for $189 - https://www.ebay.com/itm/TOP-QUALIT...738634?hash=item216003214a:g:1lwAAOSwI~FdRfZs

Go search "glidelock clasp" on AliExpress. They're $15.

Buy one.

"But those aren't what we really want. The ones on eBay are too expensive! And the ones on AliExpress might be crap."

Yeah, I know. Welcome to my world. Hop on a plane, fly to the Hong Kong show, spend a week sweating your balls off, and jaw-jacking with clasp vendors. Let me know what you find. I've done that, twice, and didn't find what I wanted. My vendor finally found the one I liked, for the NTH Subs. It's the one we're using. I don't plan to add an expansion clasp, for the many reasons I've laid out.

The Subs are about as good as I can possibly make them for what they cost. The more you guys ask me to add, the more they're going to cost. If you think "it doesn't seem like going into a new higher-end, higher cost brand might be the right move at this point", then how can you simultaneously suggest I start piling on more "upgrades", knowing that they're going to also pile on the costs?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> I have a different outlook on this, especially this example.
> 
> Sometimes I can get a better quality product for cheaper when I buy something that is older and "used" compared to buying a new product that may be more expensive. I was looking at getting some new hair trimmers after my Wahl beard trimmer took a sh*t. The $60 and up brand my buddy sent me had tons of bad reviews all over which showed me that while they may look nice; they're really just as cheaply made as other low cost trimmers with better packaging and branding.


This is an important point, in a lot of cases across a lot of different types of products, more expensive doesn't mean better, it just means more expensive. A bottle of Dom Perignon costs a fortune, and it's not that great. Piper-Heidsieck NV costs about $50, 20% that of the Dom Perignon, and it's exquisite.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> If you also added that extension clasp, I'm sure youd have a good amount of people buy it...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Maybe, maybe not.

I've done this mental exercise more times than I can count. I pay A LOT of attention to market trends, and online discussion. I think I've demonstrated that my "feel" for what the market wants is WAY above average.

I can't rationalize mass production (300-500 pieces) on the hopes that "a good amount" of people will buy something. My inventory needs to turn over every 90 days, on average. I need more than "a good amount". I need 300-500 people to buy whatever I make, and not take 2 years to do it.

The more the price goes up, the more demanding the customers get. I already get WAY too much push-back about my prices as it is, because "micro", and "Miyota", and "Chinese".

Imagine if all I changed was the movement, by dropping in a Soprod, and gave it an expansion clasp...

Wait...just..wait. I gotta stop here.

For the love of all that's holy, will you all stop bringing up expansion clasps? I mean, seriously. If you're trying to be funny, it's as funny as a turd in the punchbowl. If you think I'm going to change my mind if you bring it up enough times, trust me, I won't.

Ask ANYONE who's known me for longer than a New York minute. Ask Rusty, or HWA, or UVAlaw, or Glen Roiland - you need a mountain of undeniable evidence to get me to change my mind, once it's made up. You better be VERY persuasive. And simply saying, "I'd like a 'better' clasp" is nowhere near persuasive enough.

But, anyway, I digressed.

Let's say I put a Soprod in the Subs' case, and I (grudgingly) gave you all a "better" clasp. Okay...it's still "micro" and "Chinese".

I know as sure as my eyes are now damned near bleeding (from reading the last half a dozen "better clasp" posts) that I would NOT sell "a good amount", at $1000, just because "Soprod" and "better clasp".

See? This is where we start adding up the costs. I gotta put "Swiss Made" on the dial, which means using a Swiss OEM, and paying "Swiss" production costs, which could easily end up being Chinese production costs marked up sufficiently for having briefly passed through Switzerland. And I gotta show you some other improvements too, whether they're real or imagined. And I gotta tell a better story, because suddenly, we're not selling a $1000 watch anymore, we're selling a $2000 watch, like Monta. Now I gotta do that song-and-dance that brands in that $2000 space do.

No. Just. No.

If I'm going to go that route, it's not going to be half-a$$ed. It's all-in, full-bore, no-holds-barred, or I'm not doing it. You're looking at a watch that will cost AT LEAST $3k (my best guess) at that point.

I'm not looking for business advice guys, seriously. That's not what I'm doing here. Let me make the business decisions. All you guys need to decide is whether or not you like the product enough to buy it. I'll handle the rest.


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

Hey Doc,

You left out the ready-to-rock bracelet for the NTH subs with the glide-lock. I have two. One on the BVB and one on the Carolina. First one fit perfect. Bought second some time later, but didn't go to fit it cause I had one of your BoR's  Turned out one end link on the second one wasn't the best fit. 5 minutes with dremel solved it. What do you want for $65? Glidelock is CarlyWet+ quality and more than good enough. I posted pics sometime back in the BSH thread.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20MM-CUSTO...AND-BRACELET-FOR-NTH-DIVER-WATCH/143355439004

Link to BSHT Part 36 Post with pics - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brot...t-36-a-5039271-post50373383.html#post50373383


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Small changes (clasp here, bezel click mechanism there, one extra line of case polish elsewhere) are never going to be enough to convince people to drastically change their buying behaviours, or pay more. 

If the selling point of a new watch becomes "Now with 5% better clasp!", then it's already a lost game.

Plus, at this point, were out of strict "upgrade" territory and into tradeoffs. (most obvious tradeoff, all these suggested expando-clasps are long, thick, and heavy - much more so than what exists now).


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## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm not enough of a "ball expert" (har) to say for sure, but a lot of the new ones are just ghastly. Who puts a date at 1??
> 
> View attachment 15063033
> 
> ...


Maverick watch design.

Splitting the day-date windows is a potentially fun, albeit kooky, idea, but it just looks like they tossed it onto an otherwise standard watch dial layout rather than actually thought about designing the watch around that split (which is what you'd have to do).



docvail said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > Is it just me, or did Ball's date window placement get much worse in the past few years? Their slightly older models mostly seemed to have it in more or less conventional spots (apart from the occasionally gratuitous "between 4/5" placement).
> ...


Agreed.

In general, the world would be an infinitesimally better place if the default date wheel color was black with white date wheels being the less common design feature.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mgp123 said:


> Now I just have to figure out a way to trim my bushy eyebrows every few months. I don't think I can pull of the no-eyebrows look. Anyone have any ideas?


This attachment I have for my beard trimmer setup might work on bushy eyebrows? I guess it depends on how bushy. 







Hey... you just said ideas...


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Id put a sticky somewhere with FAQ and responses.
I hope you are not retyping all of these WOTs each time. Kudos to you doc but I have been following NTH treads for years now (mostly read) and its same thing over and over and I am guilty of some too. 

Regarding pricing of the NTH watches:
I would recommend anyone to go to a GTG, watch stores, meet with friends or buy a 3-5 times expensive diver watch and put it side by side with the NTH. Even get a loupe and check out each part of the watch. Take your time, examine it, compare it. NTH is easily on par with watches up to 3k the way it is, some components may even be from the same factory. So being that you can buy it new for $650 and have a 6 year warranty is insane. I would not poke a bear and ask for a price increase of the NTH for some phantom upgrade when its already on par with the luxury swiss divers the way it is. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I forgot to adjust the elephant in the room... these damn glide locks.

We, yes we, have already been told multiple times(and I've only been registered here since the beginning of this dumpster fire year) that we wont be getting one on an NTH sub. Point blank, period. 

If you want one, go buy an aftermarket one, or a Monta, or a CWard, or go buy one from the deceitful bastard who makes Ginault. 

The NTH bracelet has six micro adjustments for chrissakes. I have to adjust mine sometimes at work, it takes all of 20 seconds of my day, and I dont even have my bracelet tool kit there. The pusher tool can be bought individually for what... $1? Buy three. Keep one in your car, keep one in your desk at work, hell, keep one in your wallet, they're tiny. 

Y'all gonna give Doc a stroke and then we'll all be screwed outta some great watches. 

Rant over.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm not enough of a "ball expert" (har) to say for sure, but a lot of the new ones are just ghastly. Who puts a date at 1??
> 
> View attachment 15063033
> 
> ...


Ugh. Ball is seriously the worst. Yet they have the capability to be great. Which makes them more frustrating. That said, despite their numerous sins with day and date placements, nothing they have done will ever surpass the utter stupidity of the case design known as engineer hydrocarbon (top pic). It's just complete ****e in every possible way. From the ridiculous and fragile crown guard, to the deeply sloped lugs that terminate with points that jab your wrist, to the utterly moronic quadruple screw bars that make installing any strap other than Ball's own rigid rubber turds an impossibility. Then they top it off with a gigantic butterfly clasp that features 4 sharp corners to poke the bottom of your wrist. Yes, some freakin muppet at Ball decided that their line of dive watches should have a clasp with no adjustment capabilities. Even more egregious is that the debut model with this case design had a normal double fold clasp with a few micro-adjust holes. But they binned it in favor of the butterfly from hell on every model thereafter.
I stupidly bought an engineer hydrocarbon ceramic XV in my early days of watch obsession. On a business trip to Orlando a few weeks later I nearly smashed it into a wall in a fit of high humidity drunken wrist swelling. Then at a later point I took a file to the corners of the clasp. A minor improvement but little consolation to my wrist, which was still enduring the top right lug constantly poking the bone on my wrist joint. Luckily the AD gave me a 25% discount on the watch when I bought it, so I only had to eat ANOTHER 25% to get rid of the damn thing.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

kgrier said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> You left out the ready-to-rock bracelet for the NTH subs with the glide-lock. I have two. One on the BVB and one on the Carolina. First one fit perfect. Bought second some time later, but didn't go to fit it cause I had one of your BoR's  Turned out one end link on the second one wasn't the best fit. 5 minutes with dremel solved it. What do you want for $65? Glidelock is CarlyWet+ quality and more than good enough. I posted pics sometime back in the BSH thread.
> 
> ...


The clasps are huge and the bracelet is considerably heavier that what come with an Nth sub. And these Chinese clasps are made with just a bit of indifference towards finishing and tolerances. I've had 2 of those bracelets and both had links that needed filing so they could pivot. One of them had a cross threaded screw. One of the clasps worked fine, the other wouldn't hold it's position when you took the watch off (the adjustable portion wouldn't stay snapped shut). I essentially got one good bracelet out of combining 2 of them. 
I'm sticking with the lighter and more comfortable Nth bracelet.



TheBearded said:


> The NTH bracelet has six micro adjustments for chrissakes. I have to adjust mine sometimes at work, it takes all of 20 seconds of my day, and I dont even have my bracelet tool kit there. The pusher tool can be bought individually for what... $1? Buy three. Keep one in your car, keep one in your desk at work, hell, keep one in your wallet, they're tiny
> 
> Rant over.


Or just put a damn safety pin on your key ring or in your wallet.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Helpful office watch micro adjustment tool hint: 

paper clip


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

The best useless feature on any watch I own:

View attachment DSC_8331.jpg


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

92gli said:


> kgrier said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Doc,
> ...





captainmorbid said:


> Helpful office watch micro adjustment tool hint:
> 
> paper clip
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Boom.

"But I want a gliiiiiide loooooocccckkkkkk"


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> I find that I also feel similarly about more and more things as I get older. I have a Miele vacuum for example that costs an absurd amount of money. However, I expect to get 20-30 years out of it. My Blendtec is similarly expensive, but it's a commercial model designed to be able to handle daily work in coffee shops and restaurants. I use it maybe once a day, so it will likely last forever.
> 
> I have a couple of Shun knives that cost as much as like a 12-piece set would from Bed Bath & Beyond. That 12-piece set comes with a bunch of crap I don't need, and low-grade steel that will wear and dull easily. The Shuns should stay sharp for a few years, and when they do need a touch up, Shun HQ here in OR will sharpen them for me, for free, for the life of the knives. I'm a firm believer in when you need a thing, buy a good one, and then you don't have to worry about it.


While we are blabbing about well made products that may cost a bit more, DeWALT is a good example. If you want a miter saw, table saw, whatever, give me the yellow and black ones!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ike2 said:


> Davekaye90 said:
> 
> 
> > I find that I also feel similarly about more and more things as I get older. I have a Miele vacuum for example that costs an absurd amount of money. However, I expect to get 20-30 years out of it. My Blendtec is similarly expensive, but it's a commercial model designed to be able to handle daily work in coffee shops and restaurants. I use it maybe once a day, so it will likely last forever.
> ...


You buy DeWalt all you want!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kgrier said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> You left out the ready-to-rock bracelet for the NTH subs with the glide-lock. I have two. One on the BVB and one on the Carolina. First one fit perfect. Bought second some time later, but didn't go to fit it cause I had one of your BoR's  Turned out one end link on the second one wasn't the best fit. 5 minutes with dremel solved it. What do you want for $65? Glidelock is CarlyWet+ quality and more than good enough. I posted pics sometime back in the BSH thread.
> 
> ...


When I searched "glidelock clasp" on AliExpress last night, Carlywet was the first one that popped up.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

With regards to clasps, I'm one of those people who puts most of my watches straight onto a strap anyway. Ha ha ha. The Subs, for me, work better on Nato straps so I can pretend I'm commanding a submarine. Not that there's anything wrong with the bracelets, I'm wearing my Barracuda right now on one, but in the round I prefer straps to bracelets.

Who are these people with Jeckyll-and-Hyde wrists anyhow? Is it a male menopause thing?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> With regards to clasps, I'm one of those people who puts most of my watches straight onto a strap anyway. Ha ha ha. The Subs, for me, work better on Nato straps so I can pretend I'm commanding a submarine. Not that there's anything wrong with the bracelets, I'm wearing my Barracuda right now on one, but in the round I prefer straps to bracelets.
> 
> Who are these people with Jeckyll-and-Hyde wrists anyhow? Is it a male menopause thing?


Temperature change, blood flow, etc.

I slapped on my Sauro on Wednesday morning with its micro in the normal position. Snug, but not so snug as to create what I call wrist "muffin tops". Now, I work with my hands everyday, but I got into some pretty involved work about two hours into the morning. And after coming down off a ladder I noticed due to all my activity, my wrist was "muffin topping". I meandered over to my desk, popped my watch off(wrist has swelled enough to leave a beads of poop imprint) and loosened my micro adjust one, then two spots. Perfect again.

Once again all you glide lock dreamers... it took maybe(?) 40 seconds. Adjust one spot, try on, adjust two, perfect.


----------



## wrencher13 (Oct 11, 2019)

How about a no bracelet option. I have no use for a bracelet regardless of the clasp. Add a cheep I mean low cost nato option. 
My watches live on nato and Zulu straps.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> With regards to clasps, I'm one of those people who puts most of my watches straight onto a strap anyway. Ha ha ha. The Subs, for me, work better on Nato straps so I can pretend I'm commanding a submarine. Not that there's anything wrong with the bracelets, I'm wearing my Barracuda right now on one, but in the round I prefer straps to bracelets.
> 
> Who are these people with Jeckyll-and-Hyde wrists anyhow? Is it a male menopause thing?


My theory - some guys like their watches tighter than others. I wear my watches a little loose, so if my wrist shrinks or swells a tad over the course of a day, I rarely if ever notice it. I've never felt the need to adjust my bracelet's sizing mid-day, nor have I ever needed to use the expansion feature on my clasps that have it - at least, not for that purpose.

The original DevilRay's bracelet has two smaller links on either slide of the clasp, to help with getting the perfect fit. For whatever reason, my "perfect fit" with the DevilRay required taking both of those out, and using part of the clasp's expansion ability to get the fit I wanted, because those clasps didn't have micro-adjustments.

But, that's not really what it's for. The "real" purpose of that feature is so that the bracelet can ostensibly be used over the sleeve of a wetsuit, but I question the advisability of a diver's clasp that isn't double-locking being used under water.

The point for "desk-divers" seems to be intra-day size-ability. But I've had guys complain to me that they couldn't get the perfect fit WITHOUT using that feature. In other words, they complained about the lack of micro-adjustments in those clasps.

As the guy who has to field the complaints, about the "cheapness" of the v.1 Subs clasp (which was thin, and short, and worked well, but guys called "cheap"), and about the length, thickness, sharp corners, and lack of micro-adjustments on the expansion clasps we used on the Tropics and DevilRay, I can't say enough good things about the setup we have on the v.2 Subs.

The v.2 Subs have 2 half-links on the bracelet, and 6 micro-adjustments on the clasp. The clasp is milled, very high quality, and sturdy. While the top "shell" is longer than the original v.1 clasp, it really isn't any longer overall, when you look at the folding arms under that top part, and it's only 0.1mm thicker than the v.1 clasp, which doesn't seem like enough for anyone to notice.

The ONLY weakness in that setup is that it doesn't have on-the-fly adjustability. But that sort of thing would indeed be a trade off - it comes at higher cost, greater length, greater thickness, a higher failure rate, etc, etc, etc.

If someone finds they can't get a good fit with our setup, I'd recommend not wearing their bracelet so dang tight, or just fitting an aftermarket adjustable clasp.

Boom.

Problem solved.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wrencher13 said:


> How about a no bracelet option. I have no use for a bracelet regardless of the clasp. Add a cheep I mean low cost nato option.
> My watches live on nato and Zulu straps.


Or, just buy the watch stock, with the bracelet, but remove the bracelet, put it aside, and fit a strap. Then, if you sell the watch later, you can advertise it with an unworn bracelet.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

The only time my wrists seem to expand, is when I am asleep.

I popped a spring bar on a clasp once, woke up with no idea what time it was. 

The horror.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## dayandnight (May 24, 2016)

Oh sorry guys , posted on the wrong section by mistake

Just deleted.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dayandnight said:


> Happy Halios Saturday everyone
> 
> Wearing all three today on a nice and beautiful day! Stay healthy!
> 
> ...


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Ninja'd by Halios fans! Sneaky.

As for bracelets, the NTH subs are far superior to my Rolex 16710 from 2005. That bracelet is a POS, but apparently it's "all part of the charm". LOL.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

I don't want it to come off as me complaining. I have already said that I am a fan of NTH watches exactly how they are. I wouldn't even upgrade the clasp because I am happy with the bracelets on both my Subs and Antilles.

But from what I see in this thread and others: Some people care about USA made. Some (including myself) don't care where it's made as long as it's good value and wouldn't pay more for a "Made in USA" watch. Like Doc said, he'd need to start a new brand if he was to do that and would have to charge more which makes sense because value (what you get for what you pay) was more of NTH's and L&H's target market. That's why I've been happy with all of his watches I own. The more consistent as easy fix to recurring comments are about the bracelets now.

And I know that the extension bracelet on the Tropics BOR bracelet adds heft. Of course it would. So would a glidelock. They have more parts than a simple double locking clasp. That's why I'm happy with the simple & solid bracelet on the Sub (although I favored the 1st gen more for some reason; don't ask me why because I couldn't tell you besides I'm weird). If I want a more comfortable bracelet on my watch that day and don't mind the heft (sometimes even to show off a bit with the added polished finishing), I'll grab my Antilles and wear that over the more low key Subs.

My point was: If you have already had BOR clasp with extension sourced from the past, it's still available for you to buy more, and that's what everyone seems to be consistently asking for more than even movement upgrade and "Made in USA"; why not stock some and offer them in the accessories page for those who want it? NTH branded extension clasps for the BOR bracelets that is. If someone buys one and doesn't like the added heft, let them know they're an idiot and can sell it to someone else 2nd hand then. But it may make the NTH community happy and quiet them down some if you offered it as an option. It also has the least investment compared to making new models with different movements or new watches (even a new brand entirely) in a different country. I never meant for you to make all new watches with upgraded clasps and charge more for them or even to make a new glidelock clasp that might get you sued by Rolex. Just sell the BOR extension clasp that you already had made and branded with "NTH" as an accessory if you can.

From what I see in this thread, most NTH buyers like having a different/custom watch that is a good value and looks just as amazing. Most people in this thread aren't scared to do a bit of modding either. Changing a clasp is about as difficult as removing a link, so why not make it an option if it's still available as a part to you and offer it on your site as long as you can still make some money off of it for whatever extra work and time it may take to do? That's all.

That's the last I'll talk about bracelet upgrades since I have already said I'm happy with all of mine. I own the best of all worlds. Subs on oyster (both gen 1 and 2) which have enough adjustment between the half links and microadjustment clasp to suit all of my needs, Antilles on BOR with extension clasp, and my Phantom and Orthos 300 that I rock on NATO (I've never worn them on their stock bracelets/straps and just keep them new for the next owner [if that day ever comes :-d ]). I find larger watches fit better for me on NATO straps, and love the ease of changing them out to go with different outfits. All of my Orient dive watches are also on NATO, but I keep a bracelet handy if feel the urge to wear one and class it up. ;-)

It might have been the small changes in the bracelet between the Gen 1 and 2 Sub that threw me off, Doc. I thought it was the case or caseback that had a different feel to it when I got my first Gen 2 Sub, but it must have been the bracelet like you mentioned. Funny thing is: I wear my Gen 1 on NATO now and the Gen 2s on their Gen 2 bracelets even though I said I liked the Gen 1's feel more for some reason. I'm f*cked in the head though. I fully understand that now since I was shaving my head bald with a straight razor at midnight during this quarantine. ;-) :-d


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

dayandnight said:


> Happy Halios Saturday everyone
> 
> Wearing all three today on a nice and beautiful day! Stay healthy!
> 
> ...


Ahhh, Halios...the one micro brand that doesn't need a made up story to overcharge for their watches. They just use Rolex style sales tactics instead!


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Trying out the Oberon II on a Horween strap today. 









Sent from a van down by the river...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> ...My point was: If you have already had BOR clasp with extension sourced from the past, it's still available for you to buy more, and that's what everyone seems to be consistently asking for more than even movement upgrade and "Made in USA"; why not stock some and offer them in the accessories page for those who want it? NTH branded extension clasps for the BOR bracelets that is.


Just because we made something once doesn't mean "it's still available" for me to buy more. That's not how this works. I have MOQ's to deal with.

When we order mass production of a new model, I'll typically order extras of certain components, including bracelets and clasps. The reason is - we may need them to address support requests from guys whose bracelets or clasps (or some other part) were defective in some way.

We don't put those parts up for sale until we're reasonably confident we won't sell out, then come to find that we still need them to support warranty claims. Case in point, we never sold DevilRay bracelets, because we needed the spares to support customers.

Eventually, we do put them up for sale. We had Tropics bracelets for sale. They're gone. I can't just whip up 50 more. My MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces. We only made 300 of the Tropics in the first place, and we sold out of the spare bracelets, so...yeah, not gonna happen.

I'm not in the parts business. I'm in the watches business. Being able to appropriately support people who bought a watch is my priority, not satisfying every whim of every customer who just loves the watch exactly as it is, except for this one niggling little thing about which they just can't stop themselves from complaining...

I have BOR bracelets for the Subs. There are aftermarket expansion claps that will fit those bracelets or the stock bracelets. You can't possibly tell me that looking at the underside of your wrist, and seeing that your aftermarket clasp isn't engraved with a 2mm tall "NTH" just ruins your day. If so, you live a charmed life.

Having my balls broken about expansion clasps every five minutes gets old.

Please, for the love of God, can we please let this go?


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Ninja'd by Halios fans! Sneaky.
> 
> As for bracelets, the NTH subs are far superior to my Rolex 16710 from 2005. That bracelet is a POS, but apparently it's "all part of the charm". LOL.


One of the older Subs I bought used came on the older bracelet. I wear that bracelet on my Nacken Vintage Blue (bought brand new, nothing old about it but the name). Part of the motivation for wearing the "older", "less refined", pre-scratched bracelet on my Vintage sub is poking fun at that commonly referenced "charm" of old rattly bracelets. The joke lands every time because I'm the only audience and I'm a simpleton.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> Ahhh, Halios...the one micro brand that doesn't need a made up story to overcharge for their watches. They just use Rolex style sales tactics instead!


I've known Jason from Halios since 2014. If he's deliberately working some sort of "long con" with his business, it would be shocking to me. After six years - where's the big payoff? I don't see the end-game.

He's a perfectionist when it comes to his product, and extremely hands-on. He's also a one-man show. There are only so many hours in the day.

He's not hiding Seaforths as a ploy to get you to buy some other model, the way some believe Rolex limits the production of their lower-priced models in order to pivot people towards their other models.

His production is limited because his resources are limited. No one who has the ability to sell watches, at full price, as fast as he can make them would willingly go two years between releases if he had the ability to just churn out watches endlessly.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I have BOR bracelets for the Subs. There are aftermarket expansion claps that will fit those bracelets or the stock bracelets. You can't possibly tell me that looking at the underside of your wrist, and seeing that your aftermarket clasp isn't engraved with a 2mm tall "NTH" just ruins your day. If so, you live a charmed life.
> 
> ...


Some of my favorite go-to leather (or at least leather looking material) is very inexpensive Timex straps. They are great. Quick release 20mm in several colors with just the right texture. The buckles are proudly signed. I find it amusing that I could be wearing an awesome watch with no logo or a logo normals wouldn't recognize. If they happened to see the clasp, they'd think the killer WIS approved watch was a Timex.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Random question here. Are these side shots renders? They look crazy real. When I scroll through images on the product pages, these ones always get me. Everything about them just lights my fire. The brushing, the teeth, the insert, the crystal. I guess I'm into profiles. No kink shaming, please. ;-)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Random question here. Are these side shots renders? They look crazy real. When I scroll through images on the product pages, these ones always get me. Everything about them just lights my fire. The brushing, the teeth, the insert, the crystal. I guess I'm into profiles. No kink shaming, please. ;-)
> 
> View attachment 15065657


They're photographs, not renders.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Just because we made something once doesn't mean "it's still available" for me to buy more. That's not how this works. I have MOQ's to deal with.
> 
> Having my balls broken about expansion clasps every five minutes gets old.
> 
> Please, for the love of God, can we please let this go?


I figured it was something like that which is why I wrote "If".

I'm not trying to break balls. More just trying to come to a solution for everyone else because (like you) I'm sick of the convo. I'm happy with everything I have.

And that was the end of my bracelet questions as I stated in my reply.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

captainmorbid said:


> The only time my wrists seem to expand, is when I am asleep.
> 
> I popped a spring bar on a clasp once, woke up with no idea what time it was.
> 
> ...


I think your methods were ... unsound...


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> I've known Jason from Halios since 2014. If he's deliberately working some sort of "long con" with his business, it would be shocking to me. After six years - where's the big payoff? I don't see the end-game.
> 
> He's a perfectionist when it comes to his product, and extremely hands-on. He's also a one-man show. There are only so many hours in the day.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying it's all his fault. I put more blame on the people who are buying them and then selling for the ridiculous prices down the road saying dumb things like "THIS IS THE ONLY HALIOS WITH TURNING 12-HOUR BEZEL THAT WILL EVER BE MADE" or whatever like they can predict the future. The owner makes it seem like his watch models will never be restocked in the future (and they might not be exactly), but that doesn't mean that popular designs that he's made won't be copied by himself down the road in his new models. I'm sure his most popular dial colors will be seen again in the future on his new models along with popular features. Why would he make a watch that he doesn't think would sell well? It only makes sense that as long as the company wants to stay in business, the popular models and their features will come back around. I'm just sick of seeing a watch sold for ~$700-900 MSRP selling for $1400 second hand because everyone is sold on the fact that they're "so limited and will never be produced again". Again the blame isn't all his; it's more of the stupid WIS groupthink. I remember everyone trying to sell the first batch of pastel blue Seaforths like the color would never be seen again since the models were "limited production". Crazy that the next batch also had the most talked about and popular color available...INNIT?!? ;-)

I don't know Jason, and I don't care to because what type of person he is or isn't has no relevance to the point I'm making. I might like him or not. Who gives a sh*t? It has nothing to do with the watch or sales tactics used. And I'm not saying he's preforming a long con since his MSRP hasn't gone up either. I'm saying he's using the "limited" Rolex-style sales tactic. That's why all of his watches sell out so quick and end up on the secondary market selling for over their MSRP. He manufacturers and sells watches the same way NTH does (parts produced elsewhere and assembled in house), but you don't market all of your watches as non-numbered limited runs even though you do make limited amounts of each model. If you did (and offered less models) I'm sure you'd start to have watches sell out quickly and end up seeing some being flipped immediately for a profit like what happens with Halios. Is that a con? No. It's just a type of business and marketing. It's just not the type I'm into. It's also the reason why I haven't bought a Halios although I like many of his designs and all of their specs. I'm just not tying to play the hypebeast game where I have to wait and monitor his sales constantly to maybe get a watch I like once it's released, and if not I'm SOL or have to pay over MSRP for one.

He can make as many watches as he likes! If his company is doing well, he could get the loans need to expand and buy more parts, hire more trusted watchmakers, etc if he needed and wanted to. It's pretty much up to him what happens with his company just as it's up to you whatever happens with NTH! WE (the buyers) DON'T HAVE THE CONTROL AS YOU'VE MADE CLEAR MANY TIMES IN THE PAST! Sometimes more recent than others.

If you don't think Rolex uses bs tactics as well...IDK what to tell you. That's just plain ignorance to me. I honestly can't believe people actually think it takes a full year to make a Rolex model from start to finish. That's what those waiting lists are for I guess, to make the story more believable. I also don't understand how people believe that a multi-billion dollar, "non-profit" watch company can't figure out the logistics to make more of their watch models that are high in demand and less of the models that they have trouble selling. That's just ridiculous. These are simple issues that could be fixed if they wanted to fix them. Both companies obviously don't. That's their prerogative. But don't act like I'm making up the fact that it's possible for Halios to make more models of each watch if he wanted to or that Rolex could find a way to produce more of their most popular models. The tactics they use are just a nice way for both of them to keep their products popular and in high demand.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mgp123 said:


> I'm not saying it's all his fault. I put more blame on the people who are buying them and then selling for the ridiculous prices down the road saying dumb things like "THIS IS THE ONLY HALIOS WITH TURNING 12-HOUR BEZEL THAT WILL EVER BE MADE" or whatever like they can predict the future. The owner makes it seem like his watch models will never be restocked in the future (and they might not be exactly), but that doesn't mean that popular designs that he's made won't be copied by himself down the road in his new models. I'm sure his most popular dial colors will be seen again in the future on his new models along with popular features. Why would he make a watch that he doesn't think would sell well? It only makes sense that as long as the company wants to stay in business, the popular models and their features will come back around. I'm just sick of seeing a watch sold for ~$700-900 MSRP selling for $1400 second hand because everyone is sold on the fact that they're "so limited and will never be produced again". Again the blame isn't all his; it's more of the stupid WIS groupthink. I remember everyone trying to sell the first batch of pastel blue Seaforths like the color would never be seen again since the models were "limited production". Crazy that the next batch also had the most talked about and popular color available...INNIT?!? ;-)
> 
> I don't know Jason, and I don't care to because what type of person he is or isn't has no relevance to the point I'm making. I might like him or not. Who gives a sh*t? It has nothing to do with the watch or sales tactics used. And I'm not saying he's preforming a long con since his MSRP hasn't gone up either. I'm saying he's using the "limited" Rolex-style sales tactic. That's why all of his watches sell out so quick and end up on the secondary market selling for over their MSRP. He manufacturers and sells watches the same way NTH does (parts produced elsewhere and assembled in house), but you don't market all of your watches as non-numbered limited runs even though you do make limited amounts of each model. If you did (and offered less models) I'm sure you'd start to have watches sell out quickly and end up seeing some being flipped immediately for a profit like what happens with Halios. Is that a con? No. It's just a type of business and marketing. It's just not the type I'm into. It's also the reason why I haven't bought a Halios although I like many of his designs and all of their specs. I'm just not tying to play the hypebeast game where I have to wait and monitor his sales constantly to maybe get a watch I like once it's released, and if not I'm SOL or have to pay over MSRP for one.
> 
> ...


Wow what a incoherent misinformed rant.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

I sense a new wall of text from docvail will be incoming...


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Wow what a incoherent misinformed rant.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


And what a bs reply that doesn't do anything to make any counterpoints against anything I said. Thanks!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I think we're all going crazy in quarantine... devolving.

Arguing for arguments sake and *****ing just because we can.

We should all fight it out. Fisticuffs, baby.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mgp123 said:


> Ahhh, Halios...the one micro brand that doesn't need a made up story to overcharge for their watches. They just use Rolex style sales tactics instead!


Yep, he's hiding watches so he can sell one or two every month for an extra $200 ?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Here’s the thing...

A man makes watches he likes, wants to share them with us unwashed masses.(and profit)

Makes himself incredibly available to us unwashed masses.


Explains things repeatedly until it loses its fun.


Loses interest in watches.


*that final one is a speculation. But, highly likely if man were me.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I think we're all going crazy in quarantine... devolving.
> 
> Arguing for arguments sake and *****ing just because we can.
> 
> ...


Boredom is going to be more of a killer than Coronavirus...along with panic & increased suicide rates due to unemployment and other economic suffering in the future. Mark my words. I can't wait! =)

And I don't mind a good argument or fight; but if someone's going to argue, they need to make (and support) their points.

Saying only "Wow what a incoherent misinformed rant" isn't really saying much of anything.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

mgp123 said:


> And I'm not saying he's preforming a long con since his MSRP hasn't gone up either. I'm saying he's using the "limited" Rolex-style sales tactic. That's why all of his watches sell out so quick and end up on the secondary market selling for over their MSRP. He manufacturers and sells watches the same way NTH does (parts produced elsewhere and assembled in house), but you don't market all of your watches as non-numbered limited runs even though you do make limited amounts of each model. If you did (and offered less models) I'm sure you'd start to have watches sell out quickly and end up seeing some being flipped immediately for a profit like what happens with Halios. Is that a con? No. It's just a type of business and marketing. It's just not the type I'm into. It's also the reason why I haven't bought a Halios although I like many of his designs and all of their specs. I'm just not tying to play the hypebeast game where I have to wait and monitor his sales constantly to maybe get a watch I like once it's released, and if not I'm SOL or have to pay over MSRP for one.





92gli said:


> Yep, he's hiding watches so he can sell one or two every month for an extra $200 &#55357;&#56900;


I shortened it for you since even with all of the extra time on our hands right now some people still can't be bothered to read. How's that?


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

captainmorbid said:


> Loses interest in watches.


Hey! I know that part! I'm starting to get there. =)

I'm about 1 ban away selling 1/2 of my watches if I have to hear about how hard it is being your own boss and dealing with criticism that you opened yourself up to and actually invited by posting a thread about your company. I'm getting kind of sick of these forums that allow you voice your opinion only as long as you agree with everyone and the moderators. But that's life online!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*yawn*

All watches priced above 20USD are luxury products, from Invicta to NTH to Rolex to Patek. They cost what they cost. The hoops that must be jumped through are the hoops that must be jumped through. (Back in the day you could get a new NTH Sub for $400 if you were hovering over your computer at just the right time.) 

Your money, your time, your choice. 

No one cares if you find a particular product too costly in either money or time.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Avo said:


> *yawn*
> 
> All watches priced above 20USD are luxury products, from Invicta to NTH to Rolex to Patek. They cost what they cost. The hoops that must be jumped through are the hoops that must be jumped through. (Back in the day you could get a new NTH Sub for $400 if you were hovering over your computer at just the right time.)
> 
> ...


You're right! I don't disagree at all.

But I *must *care about all of your opinions, right?

Can someone else please come in here and comment the same thing? Or does anyone want to tell me (with some proof) that I'm wrong about Rolex, Halios, and all other companies using "limited" sales tactics to keep their demand up? Because I'd like to get back to that since it was my point. I'm all ears (or eyes).


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ok. Point of order. Becoming angry about ANYTHING in a watch forum solves nothing.

1. Jason can do what he likes, and he must have his own reasons. Ditto Rolex. Ditto Doc. If you want one of their watches, get one, but wanting any of them to change to suit a single buyer's desires isn't going to happen. Doesn't mean we can't all have our opinions and desires. But getting angry about it (ironically in a thread dedicated to a different brand) only serves to shorten one's own life through the stress...

2. My own take on the "I'd rather have a different clasp" subject: The NTH bracelet is amazingly suitable for many different clasps. Nice design feature. I'm probably the ONLY guy on the planet who likes the smaller one, but I do.

Dog for scale.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let me re-frame this discussion of Halios...

I've seen a lot of the criticism. 

This is only my impression, but my impression is that there are more people who want Jason's watches than there are people who are able to get his watches, because when he makes them, he doesn't make a ton of them. And whenever there's a hot new release, such that there's a feeding frenzy, and his site crashes, or for whatever reason, people can't get one, some of those people get angry, and go online to rant about it.

I've seen the rants, and the suggestions people make, many of which are about Jason's motivations. Some suggest he's deliberately creating "artificial scarcity". That concept typically gets tied back to the steel sports models from Rolex/Tudor, and to a lesser extent, Patek Philippe. 

I saw Hodinkee's piece about Patek Philippe, in which some big cheese claimed it was deliberate, part of some grand scheme sort of strategy. A lot of people bought the explanation the guy gave.

I didn't. Never did. Still don't.

I'm just a logical guy, who's learned a lot about how this industry works over the last 7 years. Let me explain some very basic, very logical, very universal truths...

No one who works in this industry has a crystal ball. None of us is clairvoyant. Brand managers are all just doing their best to try to predict what will sell, and in what volume (sales volume being technically defined as units sold divided by the time it takes to sell them), months, if not years in advance.

Yes, it's months, if not years. A production cycle is 3-5 months, typically. But product development can take a year or more. Every time we start to develop a new model, we have to think about whether or not it will sell, and in what volume, at some point far off in the future.

Predicting what will happen tomorrow is difficult. Predicting what will happen in 3-5 months is exponentially harder. You gotta be pretty good at reading the tea leaves to have any clue what will happen more than a year from now.

With watches, because of how much money production takes, and how long production takes, it's not at all uncommon to see certain models which appear "scarce", and other models which appear "overpriced".

It's really just basic supply and demand. Price something too high, it won't sell quickly enough, and it'll look like you produced too many. Price it too low, it'll sell out very quickly, and it'll look like you didn't produce enough. Some will accuse you of creating "artificial scarcity", and ascribing all sorts of convoluted motivations to you.

Did you all see when oil went negative recently? Supply and demand. Not nearly enough demand, too much supply, and the price went negative.

The opposite is true for Rolex's steel sports models, and for most Halios releases. There's plenty enough demand, but not enough supply. 

Why doesn't Rolex raise their prices on their steel sports models, or why doesn't Tudor raise the price of the BB58? 

Well, if a steel Sub cost as much as a gold Datejust, how do you explain that to the guy who wants to buy the Datejust? Put yourself in Rolex's position. You can walk into any Rolex AD and buy any number of models which aren't anywhere near as popular as the Submariner or Explorer. If they raise the price on those steel sub models, they have to raise all their prices, which will only hurt sales of those models which are already selling too slowly as it is.

Why don't they just produce more of the steel sport models? Well, suppose they did. Remember, it takes months. There's a delayed result. How do they know when to stop? How do they predict demand months, if not years in advance? What if they make too many, and can't sell them all? How is that good for their brand? How does producing more steel sports models help them sell the Datejusts sitting idle in AD's display cases?

I've suggested Jason could raise his prices. If he did, the watches wouldn't sell out so quickly. Some would no doubt whinge about the higher prices, but the fact would remain, they wouldn't sell out so quickly. As a bonus, you could buy one directly from Jason, instead of some "scalper" on eBay, and you'd probably get the watch for less. He wouldn't need to charge double to slow things down. If he bumped prices up 20%-25%, that would probably be enough to stop the feeding frenzy.

Why doesn't Jason raise prices? I know for certain, that's what I'd do. When we couldn't keep the NTH Subs in stock, I raised prices.

Like I said, I've met Jason. Jason doesn't think like I do, or run his business the way I run mine. My business has to feed my family. It has to make money. Jason sometimes acts like he's allergic to money. Whatever motivates him to make the decisions he does, it's a different set of motivations than the set I'm working with.

Believe what you want. But, if you trust me at all, then trust me, Jason isn't playing any games. There's no sleight of hand happening. He's definitely not trying to create "artificial scarcity" as a means to increase what he can charge for the watches, or to pump up the appeal of his other models.

How do I know? Well, I already said, I've suggested he could raise prices, and yet, he hasn't. Not really. Not enough to dampen that crazy demand. If he was doing something to increase prices, and it seems to be working, why doesn't he go ahead and raise prices already?

He isn't trying to get people who want a Seaforth to buy some other model. He doesn't have any other models for sale. 

He's an artist. He geeks out on design. He's been known to jump on a plane and fly to Hong Kong to straighten out an issue with a component in some design he's working on. He'll take two years to get something right, if that's what it takes. 

Right now, he's sold out. He's got nothing for sale, which means, no sales, i.e., no money coming into the business. You can walk into any Rolex AD, and they'll have some watches available. Maybe not the Explorer or a steel Sub, but something. Jason has nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Again, where's the end-game? What's the advantage here, for Jason, in being sold out of the Seaforth, if he's got nothing for sale? Is the idea that his next model is also going to sell out instantly, and then sell for double on the secondary market? Okay, but...then what? How is that good for him?

When NTH was sold out of everything, early last year, I was scrambling to ramp up production so we could meet demand. I couldn't wait to stop the emails from guys asking when we'd have more available.

Why would Jason leave money on the table by deliberately under-pricing his product? Why let the "scalpers" make an easy profit on eBay? Why would he prefer to have those wild swings in his cash flow, while simultaneously pissing a lot of potential customers off?

I don't see any advantage in anything he's doing. I don't see the end-game. He's an artist, not a mad genius. There's no grand scheme. No master plan. No long con. 

He's just one guy, happy doing what he's doing, keeping his business small, and not looking to change.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Dog for sale.


How much for the dog?


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Let me re-frame this discussion of Halios...
> 
> I've seen a lot of the criticism.
> 
> ...


I disagree.

Ric, innit.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Ric, innit.


Don't you have a Swiss commuter to cripple?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> How much for the dog?


That Sparky wanna-be is the seventh in a series of city pound rescues. She's priceless.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Pineapples on pizza is nuts.

And don't get me started on ketchup with eggs. 


Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mgp123 said:


> Boredom is going to be more of a killer than Coronavirus...along with panic & increased suicide rates due to unemployment and other economic suffering in the future. Mark my words. I can't wait! =)
> 
> And I don't mind a good argument or fight; but if someone's going to argue, they need to make (and support) their points.
> 
> Saying only "Wow what a incoherent misinformed rant" isn't really saying much of anything.


Hey, can you just leave? Please? Nobody needs nor wants this trolling BS.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hey, can you just leave? Please? Nobody needs nor wants this trolling BS.


Nah...I'm pretty sure I can post my opinion on here just like you. Sorry you think everyone who doesn't agree with you and the crowd is "trolling". You might want to get off of your computer and out of the digital world once in a while if you think that's reality. Not everyone is always going to agree with everyone else, and the best part about life is THEY DON'T HAVE TO! If you don't like it, post your pic of your watch and move along. No need for you to read my comments or even be in this thread either. I'm sure there's even a way to block me if you want and are that bothered by a difference of opinion. But I have the same right to post as you do. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.

I'm not really in this thread trying to get likes. If anything...I'm trying to get closer to 100 posts so that I can finally post some stuff for sale when I want to (not that the rule makes complete sense to me, but whatever; that's the way it is). =) Also I just would like to be able to state my opinion which a forum is for, so I think I'm going to keep doing that. Thanks for your opinion though.

TLDR:


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

mgp123 said:


> Nah...I'm pretty sure I can post my opinion on here just like you. Sorry you think everyone who doesn't agree with you and the crowd is "trolling". You might want to get off of your computer and out of the digital world once in a while if you think that's reality. Not everyone is always going to agree with everyone else, and the best part about life is THEY DON'T HAVE TO! If you don't like it, post your pic of your watch and move along. No need for you to read my comments or even be in this thread either. I'm sure there's even a way to block me if you want and are that bothered by a difference of opinion. But I have the same right to post as you do. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.
> 
> I'm not really in this thread trying to get likes. If anything...I'm trying to get closer to 100 posts so that I can finally post some stuff for sale when I want to (not that the rule makes complete sense to me, but whatever; that's the way it is). =) Also I just would like to be able to state my opinion which a forum is for, so I think I'm going to keep doing that. Thanks for your opinion though.


Another troll for the ignore list...cya.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> ...
> This is only my impression, but my impression is that there are more people who want Jason's watches than there are people who are able to get his watches, because when he makes them, he doesn't make a ton of them. And whenever there's a hot new release, such that there's a feeding frenzy, and his site crashes, or for whatever reason, people can't get one, some of those people get angry, and go online to rant about it.


Hey! That's crazy! It's exactly what I said! What you said before as something he "can't" do has turned into something that he just doesn't want to do. So I guess it _is_ a choice still (if not a tactic) that he creates a higher demand for his watches by not creating enough supply.



docvail said:


> I've seen the rants, and the suggestions people make, many of which are about Jason's motivations. Some suggest he's deliberately creating "artificial scarcity". That concept typically gets tied back to the steel sports models from Rolex/Tudor, and to a lesser extent, Patek Philippe.
> 
> I saw Hodinkee's piece about Patek Philippe, in which some big cheese claimed it was deliberate, part of some grand scheme sort of strategy. A lot of people bought the explanation the guy gave.
> 
> I didn't. Never did. Still don't.


Wild...I didn't see that piece because like I said before I don't really care for Hodinkee, Worn & Wound, and the others with their ads in article formatting.



docvail said:


> I'm just a logical guy, who's learned a lot about how this industry works over the last 7 years. Let me explain some very basic, very logical, very universal truths...
> 
> No one who works in this industry has a crystal ball. None of us is clairvoyant. Brand managers are all just doing their best to try to predict what will sell, and in what volume (sales volume being technically defined as units sold divided by the time it takes to sell them), months, if not years in advance.
> 
> ...


I think that's how everything is, not just the watch industry. Nobody can really predict anything for sure, but that's why people look at past data. All I said before was he would probably make watches in the future that will incorporate aspects people liked about his past watches. When the Seaforth came out and blue was a popular color, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT THE 2ND LIMITED RUN WOULD ALSO FEATURE THE MOST POPULAR COLOR?!? Didn't take a crystal ball to figure that one out...or that there would be a second run of a "limited" watch that was popular.



docvail said:


> With watches, because of how much money production takes, and how long production takes, it's not at all uncommon to see certain models which appear "scarce", and other models which appear "overpriced".


Again...this is the same for more than just watches, but that relates to what I've been saying. He didn't overprice his watches and it's not a scam by him to pump up MSRP. I never said he did that to make more money or was working a con. I actually stated this in a previous reply already. You all took my little joke about his company a bit too seriously I think. But it does benefit his brand and company to limit supply which keeps his watches popular and in demand. We have seen this in his company and all of the other companies you stated that do similar. It benefits these companies to do this so they sell out quickly because who the hell wants to be holding inventory? I'll mention this more later.



docvail said:


> It's really just basic supply and demand. Price something too high, it won't sell quickly enough, and it'll look like you produced too many. Price it too low, it'll sell out very quickly, and it'll look like you didn't produce enough. Some will accuse you of creating "artificial scarcity", and ascribing all sorts of convoluted motivations to you.


So...I'm accusing him of doing something that we just said that he's doing? He could create more supply if he really wanted to. It's his choice not to. Not mine, or yours, or anyone else's. It's all up to him. And I get supply and demand. That's what I've been talking about this whole time with the "limited production" style of business. It's basic business 101 just like sales forecasting and predicting what your market wants.



docvail said:


> Did you all see when oil went negative recently? Supply and demand. Not nearly enough demand, too much supply, and the price went negative.
> 
> The opposite is true for Rolex's steel sports models, and for most Halios releases. There's plenty enough demand, but not enough supply.
> 
> ...


"...it takes months."? WAIT! I thought it took an entire year to make a Rolex! ;-)

And they could easily predict demand. They're a multi-billion dollar company like I mentioned before. There are people whose entire jobs are to predict demand for products in the future. It's called forecasting. It's probably not too hard to figure out how many more they need to make when they have lists of people waiting for particular models. Use those numbers to forecast how much you need to ramp up production for each model, and maybe add a bit more to that for all of the people who walk out of ADs in disgust because of the fact they can't buy a watch that is sitting in the store already in stock.

If they make too many and don't sell them all that year, then sell them the next year like they did in the past before they started this tactic (which did lead Rolex to raising their MSRP over time [more than keeping up with inflation too] btw). There once was a time where the majority of people could afford a Rolex and their tool watches weren't considered "luxury goods" or looked at as jewelry. They did all of this themselves by creating an inflated demand for their watches by limiting supply of models people wanted and through marketing while raising MSRPs.



docvail said:


> I've suggested Jason could raise his prices. If he did, the watches wouldn't sell out so quickly. Some would no doubt whinge about the higher prices, but the fact would remain, they wouldn't sell out so quickly. As a bonus, you could buy one directly from Jason, instead of some "scalper" on eBay, and you'd probably get the watch for less. He wouldn't need to charge double to slow things down. If he bumped prices up 20%-25%, that would probably be enough to stop the feeding frenzy.
> 
> Why doesn't Jason raise prices? I know for certain, that's what I'd do. When we couldn't keep the NTH Subs in stock, I raised prices.
> 
> Like I said, I've met Jason. Jason doesn't think like I do, or run his business the way I run mine. My business has to feed my family. It has to make money. Jason sometimes acts like he's allergic to money. Whatever motivates him to make the decisions he does, it's a different set of motivations than the set I'm working with.


And that's his prerogative like I said before. Is it a con? No. Is it a strategy that allows him to sell out of models quickly and keep his products in demand which is good for mostly every business that isn't essential to a person's life? Yes. It's actually good for any business period, but if you're an essential business (medical supplies and the like) people get fed up quicker with the tactic and the crowds might turn on you. With luxury goods like watches, that won't happen exactly the same way or at least as quickly.



docvail said:


> Believe what you want. But, if you trust me at all, then trust me, Jason isn't playing any games. There's no sleight of hand happening. He's definitely not trying to create "artificial scarcity" as a means to increase what he can charge for the watches, or to pump up the appeal of his other models.


I'm believing basic business practices and common sense along with what you've told me. He is in control of his own company. He is the one creating a scarcity by either not forecasting his sales properly or creating scarcity on purpose. And I'm not saying he's doing it so he can raise his MSRP (although he might down the road; like we said before, nobody can predict the future). But I am saying it benefits his brand and company to do it still.



docvail said:


> How do I know? Well, I already said, I've suggested he could raise prices, and yet, he hasn't. Not really. Not enough to dampen that crazy demand. If he was doing something to increase prices, and it seems to be working, why doesn't he go ahead and raise prices already?
> 
> He isn't trying to get people who want a Seaforth to buy some other model. He doesn't have any other models for sale.


Like we said before, nobody can predict the future. He just might raise prices then. I don't know. Either way, it still benefits his brand and company to sell out immediately when he posts watches for sale. So does having people flip them for almost double MSRP. It adds to the perceived value of his watches.



docvail said:


> He's an artist. He geeks out on design. He's been known to jump on a plane and fly to Hong Kong to straighten out an issue with a component in some design he's working on. He'll take two years to get something right, if that's what it takes.


He's also either a terrible sale forecaster or great businessman when it comes to creating worth for his brand.



docvail said:


> Right now, he's sold out. He's got nothing for sale, which means, no sales, i.e., no money coming into the business. You can walk into any Rolex AD, and they'll have some watches available. Maybe not the Explorer or a steel Sub, but something. Jason has nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
> 
> Again, where's the end-game? What's the advantage here, for Jason, in being sold out of the Seaforth, if he's got nothing for sale? Is the idea that his next model is also going to sell out instantly, and then sell for double on the secondary market? Okay, but...then what? How is that good for him?


Wouldn't you like to sell out of all of your stock? Isn't it obvious that it's better for a company to hold as little inventory as possible? Less overhead. Also it adds to the perceived value of the goods and company like I mentioned before.



docvail said:


> When NTH was sold out of everything, early last year, I was scrambling to ramp up production so we could meet demand. I couldn't wait to stop the emails from guys asking when we'd have more available.


I bet you were also pumped that the models sold out and that you could raise prices like you said you did because you realized your product was being undervalued and in a higher demand than you thought before. I don't think you were pissed that you sold out or mad that you didn't have more in stock because you could always do what you did and order/create new/more models.



docvail said:


> Why would Jason leave money on the table by deliberately under-pricing his product? Why let the "scalpers" make an easy profit on eBay? Why would he prefer to have those wild swings in his cash flow, while simultaneously pissing a lot of potential customers off?


I don't know. You'd have to ask him. I doubt it's because he *can't* make more, but because he *chooses* not to. Maybe it is more of a hobby for him than a business like you all suggested. That's his prerogative.



docvail said:


> I don't see any advantage in anything he's doing. I don't see the end-game. He's an artist, not a mad genius. There's no grand scheme. No master plan. No long con.


Again. Never said he was conning anyone. But whether it's a business or a hobby, it benefits him to use this tactic. That's easy to see. If he was holding a bunch of unsold inventory, it would make it a more costly hobby.



docvail said:


> He's just one guy, happy doing what he's doing, keeping his business small, and not looking to change.


That's fine. It still doesn't change the fact that he's either doing it on purpose or accident, and it makes me not want to play the games to buy his watch. That's all I said, and I can have that opinion like you all can have yours.

Now can we all learn to take a joke and get back to posting our watches while talking about the brand that this thread is about?


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> Another troll for the ignore list...cya.


You guys really don't take criticism well for people who offer no other comments besides "UR A TROLL LOL GTFO".

You can't even stand to read differing opinions? What a tough yet sheltered life you must live...I'll pray for you. Maybe your higher power will take you from this misery you know as life (even though it's just a watch forum). ;-)

EDIT: What will I do now that the 50 year old watch collector who hates facebook so much that he makes threads about it and puts them in his bio blocks me? :think: I guess carry on! :-d


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

There is some irony in the fact that the very brief comment that I think lit the fuse here came from someone who has been (rightly or wrongly) a persona non grata at times according to the WOT Master General.


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> (SNIP)....
> 
> I don't see any advantage in anything he's doing. I don't see the end-game. He's an artist, not a mad genius. There's no grand scheme. No master plan. No long con.
> 
> He's just one guy, happy doing what he's doing, keeping his business small, and not looking to change.


Damn now I want one of his watches.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> ...
> I'm not really in this thread trying to get likes. If anything...I'm trying to get closer to 100 posts
> ...


A+ for word volume. If you'd consider separating paragraphs into their own separate posts, you'd reach your goal something like 10x as quickly. Good luck.

Whatcha looking to sell? I don't suppose you have one of those light blue Seaforths? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

3WR said:


> A+ for word volume. If you'd consider separating paragraphs into their own separate posts, you'd reach your goal something like 10x as quickly. Good luck.
> 
> Whatcha looking to sell? I don't suppose you have one of those light blue Seaforths?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nah...right now I just have those two Prontos that I posted earlier for sale on another forum and some other watches for parts (Gruen with an ETA 2824 and an older Seiko quartz model along with some links for a Citizen Stiletto bracelet). I like the Prontos (and they both run great), but need to trim back my collection somewhere.

It's not that I don't think Halios watches look good or aren't worth their MSRP either. His range of dial colors and designs are a nice change in a sea of Submariner homage divers. They seem to be quality too which is why they can sell at almost double MSRP. I just don't get on the hype train. I buy what I like (and like to wear), and I don't like that type of business that limits its production to that level. I don't really think a tool watch should be so limited in production. I wouldn't buy a hammer to use if it sold for double it's MSRP either due to it being limited production or made in small batches no matter the quality of the hammer. Halios divers almost look a bit too much like a dress watch for me too. Maybe it's the lack of any depth rating on the dial which I'm used to, but the balance seems a bit off (not that I need the Rolex/Tudor paragraph). I like the balance Doc has on his NTH watches. Not too much text, but enough to balance the top and bottom. I also like the availability of the NTH brand watches more too. It makes it so that I can still find them for a deal used instead of a markup!

Truth be told I probably wouldn't be able to wear a Halios without worrying about scratching it if I had one and knew I could sell it for double. I'd probably end up flipping it if I did get one just like many who take advantage of watching for his releases do. Then I'd go out and buy 6 Orients or a couple more NTHs because I'm a crazy fool. ;-)


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Scrolling past WOTs like whistling past the graveyard 

When the trolls hate each other, you know you’re doing something right


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Okay then...

Something funny happened yesterday.

My wife and sons were outside doing yard work, along with our family dog, who was just sunbathing in our driveway. 

There's a traffic light at the corner of our property. The light goes red, and a FedEx truck stops, near the back of a short line of cars, about even with our mailbox. 

The dog gets up, walks over, climbs into the cab with the driver, quiet as a church mouse, and sits down. The guy doesn't even see her before he starts to drive away. 

He notices her after about a couple of seconds, stops, and gives her a dog biscuit. She gets out, and comes back to the house with it.

My wife and sons thought it was hysterical, and it was, but now I'm concerned she's going to try to get into every delivery truck that stops at that light.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> Okay then...
> 
> Something funny happened yesterday.
> 
> ...


Having spent over a month with everyone working/schooling from home, if we let our dog just hang outside I think she'd jump into the first car that stopped just to get away from us.

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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

hwa said:


> Scrolling past WOTs like whistling past the graveyard
> 
> When the trolls hate each other, you know you're doing something right
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This has helped me RE that Tropic Master I was looking at.


----------



## guspech750 (Dec 15, 2013)

docvail said:


> Okay then...
> 
> Something funny happened yesterday.
> 
> ...


Now that is funny










Sent from the White House on the tax payers dime.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

^ There's a whole Facebook page about dogs hanging out with random UPS guys. Srsly.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> Hey! That's crazy! It's exactly what I said! What you said before as something he "can't" do has turned into something that he just doesn't want to do. So I guess it _is_ a choice still (if not a tactic) that he creates a higher demand for his watches by not creating enough supply.
> 
> Wild...I didn't see that piece because like I said before I don't really care for Hodinkee, Worn & Wound, and the others with their ads in article formatting.
> 
> ...


You keep on suggesting that he's doing this on purpose, thing is just like posting here or ignoring someone here you can make a choice, buy the watch or don't buy the watch. If it's out of stock (just like the Kemmner 007 harley or the Raven 40mm vintage that I would love to buy again......) then the used market is your only option. If it sells at too higher price for your tastes then don't buy it. Whether he's doing it on purpose is irrelevant, he can do what he wants.......


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Are we still on this crap? I say we all meet out by the flagpole at noon. Pick your side, bring your weapon.

Anyways. Heres a watch. I flipped it back onto the bracelet.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Quit feeding him, hey?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> You keep on suggesting that he's doing this on purpose, thing is just like posting here or ignoring someone here you can make a choice, buy the watch or don't buy the watch. If it's out of stock (just like the Kemmner 007 harley or the Raven 40mm vintage that I would love to buy again......) then the used market is your only option. If it sells at too higher price for your tastes then don't buy it. Whether he's doing it on purpose is irrelevant, he can do what he wants.......


We literally just had a nice conversation yesterday where you DM'd me with an answer about a question I had on your other thread, so why do you feel the need to get so offended by my opinion that you're still misinterpreting here?

Why bring this back up and literally write the same thing I essentially said in my comment? I know he can do what he wants. That's what I've been saying. Who are the real trolls here? You guys need to check your definition of the term.

I said _I_ wouldn't buy his watches. That's how _I_ feel. And I suggest that he is either doing this on purpose or a terrible forecaster of sales because *it's true*! Who else is in charge of his company? Not me. Not Doc. Not you. So I guess it falls on him to either expand and make more to keep up with demand or choose to keep limited production runs that benefit him as the owner (not by "conning" anyone or raising the MSRP [as of yet even though he probably should]). It's simple business. Limiting supply raises the products demand like I've stated many times already. It's not that he "can't" make more watches; it's that he doesn't want to which is his choice.

If you guys like the limited way he sells his watches, then _you_ buy them! It doesn't really matter to me! I'm just stating my opinion on the matter after you all couldn't take a joke the right way.

........I hope he gets even more sales (somehow) and sends me a kickback after doing as much as I've done to get you guys to turn on me and jump on the Halios train. But like Doc suggested, most of you are all talk and probably won't buy half the sh*t you say you would buy. I went from supporting all of you whiners trying to get bracelet/clasp upgrades (even though I'm happy with all of NTH's bracelets myself) to now being crucified over my opinion on a brand that has nothing to do with this thread. Jeez...the groupthink is strong in here.

Now can we PLEASE move on? This has been beaten to death by everyone in this thread who has terrible reading comprehension and can't see they're either misinterpreting what I've written or writing exactly the same thing I wrote.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

hwa said:


> Quit feeding him, hey?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BUT I'M SO HUNGRY! :-x


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

mgp123 said:


> BUT I'M SO HUNGRY! :-x












Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Are we still on this crap? I say we all meet out by the flagpole at noon. Pick your side, bring your weapon.
> 
> Anyways. Heres a watch. I flipped it back onto the bracelet.
> View attachment 15068147


Here's what I'm bringing just to make the _real _trolls jealous of the comfy bracelet ;-)


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> We literally just had a nice conversation yesterday where you DM'd me with an answer about a question I had on your other thread, so why do you feel the need to get so offended by my opinion that you're still misinterpreting here?
> 
> Why bring this back up and literally write the same thing I essentially said in my comment? I know he can do what he wants. That's what I've been saying. Who are the real trolls here? You guys need to check your definition of the term.
> 
> ...


Just cause we had a civil discussion via pm doesn't mean I can't disagree with you.....

I'm not offended. I'm merely offering an opinion. I'm offering the opinion because, as you said to X2-Elijah, I'm allowed to..... ;-)

......and now I'm moving on :-!


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

thin bracelet with play = comfort. look at old vintage bracelets, some will melt on your wrist. most think that fat and heavy = quality so making them better makes no sense from a sales point of view.

the Rolex bracelet is less comfy than gen 1. NTH, I love it for the recessed endlinks. The perfect (for me) clasp on the NTH would be the stamped old style GMT flip lock Rolex type.

I am also one of the view who quite liked the first gen NTH clasp. While the clasp length is similar I'd rather not have the visible part (read glidelock) take all of my wrist estate on the underside. Looks so silly on desk divers and most wrist sizes.

just my 2c

A good bracelet:
View attachment asd.jpg


The most comfortable bracelet I have:
View attachment asdff.jpg


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Breakfast with the Beatles and Vail's finest work.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

Some folks have said they'll move on from the yesterday and overnight bickering (overnight, by my time in Alberta), and I'd strongly suggest that's a very good idea.

As moderator, I'm saying: *Leave that discussion where it is*, with my thanks.

A timely reminder:



> 11. Moderators' and the Administrator's decisions are final. If you are in doubt about a post, please contact a Moderator before you submit your post. Membership of the forum can be revoked by the forum administration without any reason being given. Moderators reserve the right to delete or edit any questionable posts at their discretion and without warning.


And another one:



> Speed posting with the aim of reaching 100 posts will result in access to the Sales Corner being removed and the members post count will be adjusted. Superfluous posts will be regarded as spam and deleted. What constitutes speed posting is at the discretion of the WatchUSeek Admins and Moderating team.


Act accordingly.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Now y'all got the mods involved....


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

when in doubt, post a photo


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Seikogi said:


> thin bracelet with play = comfort. look at old vintage bracelets, some will melt on your wrist. most think that fat and heavy = quality so making them better makes no sense from a sales point of view.
> 
> the Rolex bracelet is less comfy than gen 1. NTH, I love it for the recessed endlinks. The perfect (for me) clasp on the NTH would be the stamped old style GMT flip lock Rolex type.
> 
> ...


That lord matic bracelet is very unique looking. I'm oddly drawn to it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

One from the archives.
Nacken in Havana










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

The Watcher said:


> when in doubt, post a photo


Yes sir. Here's a poor photo of a cool watch. Bill Jones would be very pleased 







And a good photo of some wetlands I found on a hike yesterday. Sorry, all the turtles jumped into the water when I got close.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> That lord matic bracelet is very unique looking. I'm oddly drawn to it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I've seen many people complain about Seiko bracelets in general (not that you were), but I've only had issues with their cheaper models (Seiko 5) being hair pullers if I wore them loose. I think the majority are pretty decent for their price. Even the Seiko 5s on bracelet aren't too bad for what you pay.

That LM bracelet is a really cool take on a jubilee style bracelet. I agree it's very nice looking and different than what we usually see nowadays. Vintage designs are becoming more of my favorite anyway though. Just picked up a cool Seiko Crown the other day that gives off serious Grand Seiko vibes! I love that you can still find some vintage Seikos for a steal although a lot of them have taken a climb up in their prices a bit due to more articles and posts about them which have made them more popular.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Jtragic said:


> This has helped me RE that Tropic Master I was looking at.


I hope I didn't discourage you from the Pronto brand. They're a watch company that doesn't get much credit anymore since (I think) they went under. I believe they were founded originally in the late 1800s and have some really cool watches that usually use Pronto branded ETA base movements. Most of their designs mimic popular designs from the eras they were produced. I don't think they made anything groundbreaking in terms of in house movements or completely new watch designs.

I got into them when I first started getting into watches more because of their "Pronto" name which I thought was clever being related to time and the value that they offer for their price. Swiss made, reliable movements with some history. You used to be able to find more on the forums and eBay, but it looks like they're getting bought up. If you end up purchasing one from eBay, do your research and watch for a franken (like you usually have to do with most eBay purchases and purchases in general).


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Are we still on this crap? I say we all meet out by the flagpole at noon. Pick your side, bring your weapon.
> 
> Anyways. Heres a watch. I flipped it back onto the bracelet.
> View attachment 15068147












Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> thin bracelet with play = comfort. look at old vintage bracelets, some will melt on your wrist. most think that fat and heavy = quality so making them better makes no sense from a sales point of view.
> 
> the Rolex bracelet is less comfy than gen 1. NTH, I love it for the recessed endlinks. The perfect (for me) clasp on the NTH would be the stamped old style GMT flip lock Rolex type.
> 
> ...


I REALLY like that bracelet on the lord matic. Hell, I really like that whole watch! Case shape is fantastic.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Dub Rubb said:


> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


See what you get when you mess with the Orphans?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> I hope I didn't discourage you from the Pronto brand. They're a watch company that doesn't get much credit anymore since (I think) they went under. I believe they were founded originally in the late 1800s and have some really cool watches that usually use Pronto branded ETA base movements. Most of their designs mimic popular designs from the eras they were produced. I don't think they made anything groundbreaking in terms of in house movements or completely new watch designs.
> 
> I got into them when I first started getting into watches more because of their "Pronto" name which I thought was clever being related to time and the value that they offer for their price. Swiss made, reliable movements with some history. You used to be able to find more on the forums and eBay, but it looks like they're getting bought up. If you end up purchasing one from eBay, do your research and watch for a franken (like you usually have to do with most eBay purchases and purchases in general).


Actually I own a Pronto. And, coincidentally, I posted yesterday that I was looking for another Tropic Master, but there doesn't seem to be much out there.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> .


Is that a Seiko strap on an NTH Sub that houses a Miyota movement?!? The purists will be furious! ;-) :-d

I love it! |>


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> Is that a Seiko strap on an NTH Sub that houses a Miyota movement?!? The purists will be furious! ;-) :-d
> 
> I love it! |>


Uncle Seiko

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of supply and demand, this is interesting (at least to me, and probably some others here)...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-seiko-sarb001-sarb003-sarb005-5171293.html

@bradjhomes is the only other guy I've known who was able to acquire all 3 of these legendary SARBs - https://wornandwound.com/affordable-classic-seikos-earliest-sarb-watches-revisited-70s/

They originally sold for about $500. I once lost an eBay auction on a NOS SARB005 to forum member Fateh. I think he ended up winning it for around $600 (this was maybe 6 years ago). When he went to sell it, I think his asking price was north of $800, which was way more than I was willing to pay. The 005 has thus been my "unicorn" for a long time.

Am I going to pay $1350 for one, apparently with a scratch on the crystal, and no bracelet? No way, though I do wish I would have bid more on that one on eBay, back in the day. I don't know how high Fateh was willing to go, but at the time, I felt like the bidding had gone beyond what the watch was worth.

As far as I know, these SARBs had sapphire, not mineral crystals. But other than that, the design was what made these watches. The 6r15 movement is okay, not fantastic (IMO). I don't remember what the WR was, not that it really matters, but my guess is it was low. There's no lume, and no AR on the crystal. Not exactly a "spec monster".

Why was Fateh willing to pay over $600 for one? How was he able to sell it for more than $800? How does this guy expect to get $1200-$1350 for each of these, two without the bracelets, and one with a scratch in the sapphire (which I doubt is going to be easy to replace with an aftermarket piece)?

Well, good design, for one. Design matters a lot, and stuff like this proves that "value for money" is kind of a moot argument.

But also, supply and demand. They're super-rare. I can't remember the last time I saw any of these for sale on the forums, or even in the USA. I think Brad sourced all three of his from an auction site in Japan.

Anyone looking for an NTH Santa Fe (one of 20 made)? FiveFortyFive in New Zealand is selling one used, for $810 - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nth-santa-fe-no-date?_pos=7&_sid=3f4f9ad72&_ss=r.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Well, if a steel Sub cost as much as a gold Datejust, how do you explain that to the guy who wants to buy the Datejust? Put yourself in Rolex's position. You can walk into any Rolex AD and buy any number of models which aren't anywhere near as popular as the Submariner or Explorer. If they raise the price on those steel sub models, they have to raise all their prices, which will only hurt sales of those models which are already selling too slowly as it is.
> 
> Why don't they just produce more of the steel sport models?


W-w-wait... you mean steel Rolex models like the OP and DJ are not considered part of the steel sport model lineup...? If it's not the steel case material/bracelet, what makes a sport Rolex a sport Rolex? WR? Screw-down crown? I've been under the impression that the steel model OP and DJ are part of Rolex's sport lineup...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Those SARB001-003 never really did it for me, and by the time I got into things enough, waaaay too expensive for what I think they represent. The brown one is pretty slick, though... Makes me wonder why someone like CT hasn't done an aftermarket faceted crystal, though.

I like the 2nd Gen Seiko Orange Monster SRP309 quite a bit, and would have picked one up for what they used to retail... but not at current collector pricing. 

Same thing with Halios -- at one point, I was like, "Man, I would give an eye-tooth for one of those in banana yellow (II) or signal orange (III) (with date and 12hr bezel)..." I missed out on the III release by a week or so, and then they started showing up in F29 and ebay. I was willing to pay full retail at time of release, so what is my eye tooth worth to me? I guess the answer is a bit more than the $200 difference between new and scarcity-induced markup. Pass at $850, still not regretting it. With time, I recognize features on the watch which would probably have had me selling it at the exact and only timing to net a loss, especially the David Letterman front teeth spacing on the 12 index...

To bring it around to the brand at hand -- Even if I could find a Gen 1 Devil Ray with turquoise or orange dial, I probably would not want to pay the asking price. When Doc was asking about this movement or that at higher or lower price on the new DR releases, I was all, meh, neither, thanks. But the more I see the new models (silver dial w/ date), and ponder the sub-Sub pricing, the more it tempts...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Tbh a big part of the appeal of those rect-crystal Seikos was that those were really and truly wild seikos before seiko went crazy in recent years with a billion fancy-dialled Presages. Imo, nowadays there are so many wild looking Seiko options - divers and non-divers - that it becomes very hard to be excited about their older stuff.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> ...
> 
> I like the 2nd Gen Seiko Orange Monster SRP309 quite a bit, and would have picked one up for what they used to retail... but not at current collector pricing.
> 
> ...


Wait, what? I accidentally played that perfectly, then. Picked up a nice used one for peanuts a few years ago. What collector pricing have you seen?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Not sure if this is above or below average... just an idle screenshot of the moment.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Because were talking about halios in an NTH thread...

Odin on halios rubber









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> W-w-wait... you mean steel Rolex models like the OP and DJ are not considered part of the steel sport model lineup...? If it's not the steel case material/bracelet, what makes a sport Rolex a sport Rolex? WR? Screw-down crown? I've been under the impression that the steel model OP and DJ are part of Rolex's sport lineup...


I don't know if this is serious or sarcastic.

I was talking about the GOLD Datejust.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FWIW, just so people don't think I'm too stubborn, and never consider anything, I shot my IP attorney an email, about the glidelock clasps.

Got his response today.









So...anyone want to give me $10k for this, or, can we let the glidelock thing go?


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

92gli said:


> Ugh. Ball is seriously the worst. Yet they have the capability to be great. Which makes them more frustrating. That said, despite their numerous sins with day and date placements, nothing they have done will ever surpass the utter stupidity of the case design known as engineer hydrocarbon (top pic). It's just complete ****e in every possible way. From the ridiculous and fragile crown guard, to the deeply sloped lugs that terminate with points that jab your wrist, to the utterly moronic quadruple screw bars that make installing any strap other than Ball's own rigid rubber turds an impossibility. Then they top it off with a gigantic butterfly clasp that features 4 sharp corners to poke the bottom of your wrist. Yes, some freakin muppet at Ball decided that their line of dive watches should have a clasp with no adjustment capabilities. Even more egregious is that the debut model with this case design had a normal double fold clasp with a few micro-adjust holes. But they binned it in favor of the butterfly from hell on every model thereafter.
> I stupidly bought an engineer hydrocarbon ceramic XV in my early days of watch obsession. On a business trip to Orlando a few weeks later I nearly smashed it into a wall in a fit of high humidity drunken wrist swelling. Then at a later point I took a file to the corners of the clasp. A minor improvement but little consolation to my wrist, which was still enduring the top right lug constantly poking the bone on my wrist joint. Luckily the AD gave me a 25% discount on the watch when I bought it, so I only had to eat ANOTHER 25% to get rid of the damn thing.


I've never tried on the Engineer Hydrocarbon so I can't comment on that, but there are definitely plenty of Ball models that would be _great_ if not for this or that stupid design decision. Their temperature gauge models for example are gorgeous and incredibly unique. But of course, somebody at Ball decided they just HAD to shove a date in there (no-date watch? WHO COULD EVER WANT SUCH A THING?) and apparently they decided that 1 o'clock was the best place for it. Alrighty then.

The Skindiver Heritage is quite pretty, but you've got that unnecessary day-date, both in white of course. At least the standard version is ETA based, so you could just have a watchmaker swap in black day and date wheels. No such luck with the in-house version, (I assume) that Ball doesn't bother to make a black wheel for their own movement.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> While we are blabbing about well made products that may cost a bit more, DeWALT is a good example. If you want a miter saw, table saw, whatever, give me the yellow and black ones!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure what if any power tools they make, but for hand tools, the correct answer is Knipex.


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Here's to a great week Brother's and Sister's.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> With regards to clasps, I'm one of those people who puts most of my watches straight onto a strap anyway. Ha ha ha. The Subs, for me, work better on Nato straps so I can pretend I'm commanding a submarine. Not that there's anything wrong with the bracelets, I'm wearing my Barracuda right now on one, but in the round I prefer straps to bracelets.
> 
> Who are these people with Jeckyll-and-Hyde wrists anyhow? Is it a male menopause thing?


Whenever I buy a new watch, literally the first thing I do is take out the Bergeon so I can get that damn bracelet off. I wore the first couple of Citizens I bought when I started wearing watches again on their bracelets. The steel one on cold mornings would slide down around my wrist bone, and on hot days would get uncomfortably tight. It had a butterfly clasp with half-links, so you could only get the fit in sort of a luke-warm porridge middle ground that was never great.

The JDM titanium one was much lighter so it would generally stay in place, and it actually had a glide-lock of sorts which I discovered a few months into owning it. After that watch I bought a Lum-tec quartz chrono, which didn't have a bracelet. Lum-tec's straps weren't great, so I found ColaReb thanks to watching TGV on YouTube. ColaReb straps are more comfortable than any bracelet I've ever tried, including Rolex's. After that, no bracelets for me, ever.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Ninja'd by Halios fans! Sneaky.
> 
> As for bracelets, the NTH subs are far superior to my Rolex 16710 from 2005. That bracelet is a POS, but apparently it's "all part of the charm". LOL.


Can confirm. 5-digits are far more elegant looking than the 'roid rage 6-digits, but their bracelets are absolute crap. If you want to feel what a "cheap" clasp feels like...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Speaking of supply and demand, this is interesting (at least to me, and probably some others here)...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-seiko-sarb001-sarb003-sarb005-5171293.html
> 
> ...


I did a triple take when I saw that post pop up on Watch Patrol. Very rare that you see any of the SARB triplets come up for sale. All three at once!? The blue one is the one that pushes my buttons, but I'm after the SZSB021 right now, and I want to get one of those before they possibly sell out. No idea how many are being made, but the 006/007 TiCTAC models sold out of their initial run, became $1000+ watches for a basic case with a 4R35 and mineral crystal, and then they made more. I feel sorry for anybody who paid scalper money for one.

Also, as pretty as the SARB001 is, I think I would be scared to death of damaging the crystal, and being unable to replace it. My SDGC009 is also extremely rare, but Seiko made several non-limited SDGC models using the same case and crystal, so should anything happen to it, I don't think getting it swapped out would be too much of a concern.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

On wrist today, actually.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Esslinger has faceted crystals up to 32mm.

They are mineral though. Was looking to use one, but too small for what I needed.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> So...anyone want to give me $10k for this, or, can we let the glidelock thing go?


LOL, No. But the design sucks anyway. If you're going to even ENTERTAIN this mob that harasses you about this, find the supplier that makes the clasps for Christopher Ward. I don't *think* it's their design. It's smaller and works better.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> LOL, No. But the design sucks anyway. If you're going to even ENTERTAIN this mob that harasses you about this, find the supplier that makes the clasps for Christopher Ward. I don't *think* it's their design. It's smaller and works better.


Got $10k?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Forget about buying a car, this is more important -- a glidelock for the masses. What's 10K to a busy entrepreneur like you? ;-)


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Tbh a big part of the appeal of those rect-crystal Seikos was that those were really and truly wild seikos before seiko went crazy in recent years with a billion fancy-dialled Presages. Imo, nowadays there are so many wild looking Seiko options - divers and non-divers - that it becomes very hard to be excited about their older stuff.


Mostly agree, but there are some exceptions. The SARB059 dial is still one of the prettiest they've ever made, and I'm glad I got mine back when you could get them for like $60. Now they are unobtanium.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Love my new Oberon, its Very versatile. Yelowish, soft lume on insert and dial match perfectly, pattern on the dial gives it a nice 3d feel, 
Hands and indexes go so well together and then the nice red details, numbers and big triangle are a nice touch. Well done doc!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Can confirm. 5-digits are far more elegant looking than the 'roid rage 6-digits, but their bracelets are absolute crap. If you want to feel what a "cheap" clasp feels like...


Ugh. Neophyte heathen.

I love the 5-digit bracelet, and wouldn't trade it for a new one.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Got $10k?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I was implying that there might be a supplier that already offers it. Would you still need to have it researched if that's the case?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Ugh. Neophyte heathen.
> 
> I love the 5-digit bracelet, and wouldn't trade it for a new one.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Whatever floats your boat. I think Zodiac's spring loaded butterfly solves most clasp issues, but apparently it's so little that some folks can't get their hands inside the bracelet with it open. Yet another problem I don't have with my pin buckle straps.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> I was implying that there might be a supplier that already offers it. Would you still need to have it researched if that's the case?


It's not the supplier who's at risk of being sued, it's me.

So, yes.

I could source a glidelock clasp right now. The reason I haven't isn't because I *can't*, it's because I might get sued.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Whatever floats your boat. I think Zodiac's spring loaded butterfly solves most clasp issues, but apparently it's so little that some folks can't get their hands inside the bracelet with it open. Yet another problem I don't have with my pin buckle straps.
> 
> View attachment 15072029


It's not double-locking.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Hey Doc(and anyone else who's up yonder in yankee land), if any of y'all are interested in something to break up the work from home monotony, tomorrow both the Blue Angel's and the Thunderbirds are starting a little tour.

Start in NY/Newark. Mid-air refuel. Then Trenton/Philly.

Sorry for the blurry screen grabs.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Speaking of supply and demand, this is interesting (at least to me, and probably some others here)...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-seiko-sarb001-sarb003-sarb005-5171293.html
> 
> ...


I saw his post on Reddit the other day, and I couldn't believe it. I got downvoted just for putting a shocked face emoji under the fact that he said he sold his salmon dial SARB037 for $1850 (which is crazy IMO). I just sold an SCVS003 which I think has a better looking dial than the SARB033 for under $350. It's also not that commonly found, but I'm not trying to kill people on the price. One SCVS is listed for just under $400 right now on eBay, and another for $800. I'm pretty sure some of these Seiko models have more of an inflated price than certain Rolex models right now. Of course people can buy what they want and spend what they want on it, but I think down the road a lot of these people will feel like fools when they realize how much they paid for these watches. The salmon dial is nice and rarer than the models I've had, but $1850?!? I don't think I could pay that much for a 6R15. I get that they're paying for the salmon dial, but that's still quite a hike considering






I'm sure it could be replicated or someone could have an homage made which then could be dropped into another SARB case for much less. And that would be truly 1 of a kind! "Priceless" ;-) I didn't like the 6R15 movement too much either and ended up selling all of my models with it after issues with too many of them. I don't want an unreliable watch. Especially an unreliable Seiko.

The 6R15 movement I had in an Urushi dialed model was the most accurate, and I could tell it had been regulated better than the other models I've had with the 6R15. It kind of pissed me off though knowing that I had to pay ~$1k to get a model with a movement that was regulated that well. I had a SARB033 that I got used and was running out of spec when I got it. Sold that and basically got my money back after a couple years (I had disclosed the issues in the sale too). My SBDC limited edition diver with the 6R15 was running way out of spec when I got it used (could only have been a year old tops when I got it), so I sent it back into Seiko under warranty. Got it back from Seiko running in spec, but just barely. I was like, "Why can't they just regulate all of these movements the same and as well as my Urushi model was if they all use the same movement?" I also had an issue with the 6R15 in my SDGM003 model when I bought it used and had to have it serviced. The SDGM models are the best value for the price if you ask me; their bracelets are fantastic. They just wore a bit larger than I wanted. I recently finished selling off the rest of my Seiko models with 6R15 movements because of all of these issues that I've had with that particular movement (all of them were running in spec at the time when sold except for the SARB033 which I disclosed in the sale). It costs double what a 7SXX movement costs to service the 6R movement even though it's based off of that movement and is just about as durable (if not less) in my experience. I'd rather have my 7SXX Seikos that wear a bit thinner and smaller in the cases they're put in and have day/date function than the 6R15. I don't care about hacking seconds that much on a non-chronograph (although it's a nice feature to have). I just can't justify the increase in the cost of service especially when I don't find it any more durable. I'd be happy with my SNKL09 if I had to keep just one Seiko, and I have some other 7S models that are pretty rare too. Just not overpriced yet because people with nice cameras haven't taken a bunch of IG photos of them and Hodinkee/W&W/etc haven't made articles on them...yet!

Good design does matter to me, but I guess I value a reliable movement with that. Like I said, I do like the watches that house the 7S movement more than the 6R now because of their smaller size, but also because I don't have to pay double for a service down the road on a movement that is just as (if not less) reliable.

I find the SARB001, SARB003, SARB005 models ugly anyway. They look like the vintage 70s Seikos with funky, faceted dials and crystals that still haven't picked up a huge following to this day. The design is hit or miss for most, and I think many pass on that retro style more than lust after it. But if it's your thing and you're willing to pay over $1k for a SARB, by all means go for it. They are rare. That's not as important to me as a reliable watch that looks good though. I'd probably still go for a more vintage 70s Seiko over one at their current prices. And I really favor the Salmon dialed SARB over all of them even though I wouldn't pay that much for one considering how often I feel like I'd wear it (doesn't match my style and the fact that I paid $1800 for it would keep me from making it an all day, go anywhere watch). All of the SARBs show wear quickly with their polished bezels. That's their Achilles heel for me which keeps them from being good daily wearers. The brushed finish on the top of the cases helps, but the bezels still take most of the blows and show it the most.

Maybe I'm just a nice guy or an idiot since I traded my Santa Fe for a Nacken white with date because I liked the design more. I also put the timing charts of my watches in my sales for watches that are only hundreds of dollars compared to these people who sell SARBs for almost $2k without mention in their posts about how they're running, so...you can make a decision on me for stupid or nice based on that too.

I do have an Orthos 300 with date that is pretty rare! I'll be entertaining offers over $2k only! ;-) (Just kidding mods! I'm not making a sales post here; it was just a joke. I don't even want to sell it :-d )


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Whatever floats your boat. I think Zodiac's spring loaded butterfly solves most clasp issues, but apparently it's so little that some folks can't get their hands inside the bracelet with it open. Yet another problem I don't have with my pin buckle straps.
> 
> View attachment 15072029





docvail said:


> It's not double-locking.


That looks (and from Doc's comment) sounds like the same type of clasp I have on a Gruen model.

View attachment 15073847
View attachment 15073849


It's comfortable, but I find it awkward to close. Although with the Gruen, I think the butterfly clasp makes it easier to put on giving you more room to get your hand through when it's open, so maybe the Zodiac and Gruen bracelets aren't as similar as I think.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

For some reason my last post got double posted, so I'll just turn this comment into another thread related comment.

DON'T WASTE $10K ON MAKING A GLIDELOCK, DOC! The bracelets are fine, and that's quite an investment to recoup for such a small detail. They're not rare SARBs after all! ;-)

Although I bet you'd sell a ton of salmon dialed NTH models right now if you made a design for one. That's what hot right now.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> I saw his post on Reddit the other day, and I couldn't believe it. I got downvoted just for putting a shocked face emoji under the fact that he said he sold his salmon dial SARB037 for $1850 (which is crazy IMO). I just sold an SCVS003 which I think has a better looking dial than the SARB033 for under $350. It's also not that commonly found, but I'm not trying to kill people on the price.


Im now on the look out for a SCVS003. I sold my 033 becuase I hated the plastic minute chapter ring. A dress watch should have minutes printed on the dial. Looks like the SCVS fixes that  Do you know if the bracelets are interchangable between the SCVS and SARB?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> I saw his post on Reddit the other day, and I couldn't believe it. I got downvoted just for putting a shocked face emoji under the fact that he said he sold his salmon dial SARB037 for $1850 (which is crazy IMO). I just sold an SCVS003 which I think has a better looking dial than the SARB033 for under $350. It's also not that commonly found, but I'm not trying to kill people on the price. One SCVS is listed for just under $400 right now on eBay, and another for $800. I'm pretty sure some of these Seiko models have more of an inflated price than certain Rolex models right now. Of course people can buy what they want and spend what they want on it, but I think down the road a lot of these people will feel like fools when they realize how much they paid for these watches. The salmon dial is nice and rarer than the models I've had, but $1850?!? I don't think I could pay that much for a 6R15. I get that they're paying for the salmon dial, but that's still quite a hike considering
> View attachment 15073707
> I'm sure it could be replicated or someone could have an homage made which then could be dropped into another SARB case for much less. And that would be truly 1 of a kind! "Priceless" ;-) I didn't like the 6R15 movement too much either and ended up selling all of my models with it after issues with too many of them. I don't want an unreliable watch. Especially an unreliable Seiko.


Nearly $2K for a SARB037 is stupid money. I know some folks adore them, but to me, the SARB033 and its ilk look like very nice Seiko 5s, and their bracelets (not that I ultimately care) are well below the ones that come with the higher end Presage models. Incidentally, you can get one of these, new from an AD, for $2200. $400 more than that Seiko went for. Not a tough choice for me.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Im now on the look out for a SCVS003. I sold my 033 becuase I hated the plastic minute chapter ring. A dress watch should have minutes printed on the dial. Looks like the SCVS fixes that  Do you know if the bracelets are interchangable between the SCVS and SARB?


I am not 100% sure since I never tried it (I actually wore the SCVS on strap most of the time because I thought it looked better and more dressy on one than the 90's design stock bracelet it comes with), but would say they are with 99% certainty since they use the same case.

And I agree that it definitely looks better without the chapter ring too!


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Im now on the look out for a SCVS003. I sold my 033 becuase I hated the plastic minute chapter ring. A dress watch should have minutes printed on the dial. Looks like the SCVS fixes that  Do you know if the bracelets are interchangable between the SCVS and SARB?


Have you seen the new SZSB models? They're brand new for this year, and they don't have the plastic ring. The "baby GS" tag gets thrown around a lot and it's often unwarranted, but the dials on these really do look _a lot_ like Grand Seiko dials, IMO. That being said, the SARX Presage models I think overall remain the prettiest regular Seiko dress models. They do have a plastic ring for the minute track, but it's much smaller than the one on the SARB033 and the earlier SARX033/35 models, and is much less objectionable. They also fixed the overly long handset from the SARX033/35.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Nearly $2K for a SARB037 is stupid money. I know some folks adore them, but to me, the SARB033 and its ilk look like very nice Seiko 5s, and their bracelets (not that I ultimately care) are well below the ones that come with the higher end Presage models. Incidentally, you can get one of these, new from an AD, for $2200. $400 more than that Seiko went for. Not a tough choice for me.
> 
> View attachment 15074053


That's a much better deal than $1800 for a SARB that I think it at its peak in terms of cost right now. I think the MontBlanc looks much better too. Looks like you can find one used for around the same price as that SalmonARB. You can even get the GMT version used in the low $2000s!

Not too tough of a choice for me (especially with how I feel towards the 6R movement line).


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Have you seen the new SZSB models? They're brand new for this year, and they don't have the plastic ring. The "baby GS" tag gets thrown around a lot and it's often unwarranted, but the dials on these really do look _a lot_ like Grand Seiko dials, IMO. That being said, the SARX Presage models I think overall remain the prettiest regular Seiko dress models. They do have a plastic ring for the minute track, but it's much smaller than the one on the SARB033 and the earlier SARX033/35 models, and is much less objectionable. They also fixed the overly long handset from the SARX033/35.
> 
> View attachment 15074099
> 
> View attachment 15074101


I'm going to nitpick here. There's too much unnecessary text on the SZSB dials for me, the crown guards are useless and should have been left off, and the harlex crystal would leave me wanting an upgrade to sapphire. They have a better design without the chapter rings, but it's like a SARB mixed with the Presage models models while for some reason downgrading the specs. Seiko has been slipping lately. I'd rather go Orient when comparing the two brands latest models.

For instance I loved the wave dial and two-tone lume on my limited edition SBDC diver, but the finishing was on par with my $200 Orient Mako USA II divers, and I couldn't justify the cost increase (SBDC being ~$700 new and ~$500 used). The movement issues with that model (and me not being a fan of the case size/shape) sent me over the top which led me to ditching all of my 6R15 Seiko watches. Also would it be that difficult to give us a signed crown when Seiko makes who knows how many variations of the same watches? They're really disappointing me lately with their new releases.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Have you seen the new SZSB models? They're brand new for this year, and they don't have the plastic ring. The "baby GS" tag gets thrown around a lot and it's often unwarranted, but the dials on these really do look _a lot_ like Grand Seiko dials, IMO. That being said, the SARX Presage models I think overall remain the prettiest regular Seiko dress models. They do have a plastic ring for the minute track, but it's much smaller than the one on the SARB033 and the earlier SARX033/35 models, and is much less objectionable. They also fixed the overly long handset from the SARX033/35.
> 
> View attachment 15074099
> 
> View attachment 15074101


I have not but those are fantastic. I had a SRAX055 and sold it. I want minutes on the dial


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Hey Doc(and anyone else who's up yonder in yankee land), if any of y'all are interested in something to break up the work from home monotony, tomorrow both the Blue Angel's and the Thunderbirds are starting a little tour.
> 
> Start in NY/Newark. Mid-air refuel. Then Trenton/Philly.
> 
> ...


True story -

The closest part of the flight path to me is a town called Ardmore, about a 10 minute drive (7 miles) away, to the East. The local paper said they'd be over this area (Philly) between 2pm and 2:45pm.

I didn't plan to go see them. Too much work to do, and I know parking in Ardmore is a b1tch. But as it happened, I needed to go out at about that time (~2:20pm-ish) to grab a certified letter from the Post Office.

The PO guys are all standing outside, looking up, and facing East. I mean, yeah, okay, that's the general direction, but c'mon, you're not going to see them, if they're doing a low-level flyby, from that far away. And if they're high up, then there's not much to see anyway.

Some lady comes by, and says they already flew over, about 10 minutes earlier.

As I'm leaving the PO, I see the entire neighborhood is dotted with people standing around, looking up and squinting, facing East. When I stopped at a stop sign, I told some folks at the intersection they were wasting their time, but no way was I going to stop and tell each one of what must have been 200 people I passed on my way home.

The whole afternoon, I've been wondering how long all those people stood there.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> True story -
> 
> The closest part of the flight path to me is a town called Ardmore, about a 10 minute drive (7 miles) away, to the East. The local paper said they'd be over this area (Philly) between 2pm and 2:45pm.
> 
> ...


Good thing you heard about the flyover!

Out of context... creeepy..

I live pretty close to Edmonton's football stadium, Canada Day(when the Eskies are playing home games) I have been buzzed by CF18s while mowing. Not sure why I'm surprised every damn year.

Love that chest rumble.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> I'm going to nitpick here. There's too much unnecessary text on the SZSB dials for me, the crown guards are useless and should have been left off, and the harlex crystal would leave me wanting an upgrade to sapphire. They have a better design without the chapter rings, but it's like a SARB mixed with the Presage models models while for some reason downgrading the specs. Seiko has been slipping lately. I'd rather go Orient when comparing the two brands latest models.
> 
> For instance I loved the wave dial and two-tone lume on my limited edition SBDC diver, but the finishing was on par with my $200 Orient Mako USA II divers, and I couldn't justify the cost increase (SBDC being ~$700 new and ~$500 used). The movement issues with that model (and me not being a fan of the case size/shape) sent me over the top which led me to ditching all of my 6R15 Seiko watches. Also would it be that difficult to give us a signed crown when Seiko makes who knows how many variations of the same watches? They're really disappointing me lately with their new releases.


Eh, I don't think 3-lines of text at 6 is much worse than 2. My SKSARB says the exact same thing at the bottom, and I think it's fine. I suppose you could argue that nobody cares how many jewels the 4R has in it, and that printing the WR on a sporty dress watch with a push-pull crown is kind of pointless, but they're still better than "PRESAGE" or the Prospex "X."

These new models I think will probably be pretty popular given how nice their dials are, so I'm sure Crystal Times will come up with a replacement sapphire crystal for them sooner or later. They're just not going to do Sapphire for <$500 now, nor will they use the 6R in watches at that price. To me the only real meaningful difference between the 4R and 6R15 is the roughly 10 hours less power reserve. That, and the 6R15 costs 3X as much to replace. Granted the 6R35 has much more, but I don't care that much about power reserve.

In pictures the brushing on the new SZSB models looks pretty coarse, and the overall look I think is arguably more Seiko 5ish than the SARB033 was. I am planning to pick up the 021 which uses the same case, so I'll see how it holds up in person. I assume you're talking about the PadiMAS? I played with the SBDC051 for a bit at a dealer. The design wasn't quite for me, but I thought the finishing was as nice as one could expect for the money. Certainly the bezel action and finishing was WAY better than any Samurai or Turtle.

So far the only 6R15 based watch I have is my Jade Monster, and I can't comment on it since it's little more than a parts donor, and has barely been worn as a result. Once the Jade Samurai is done and it's regularly on my wrist, then I'll be able to see how that movement does.

I rather like a lot of Seiko's 2020 stuff. I suppose one could wonder whether we needed yet another 62MAS reissue, but the newest ones are 40mm, and 40mm for a higher-end Seiko diver is almost unheard of. Usually it seems like Seiko seems to think that case size should be directly proportional to the price tag. I do know that plenty of folks will be VERY happy that they can now get a Captain Willard without spending a fortune for an original, or similarly top dollar for the LE SLA model.

I do wonder about Seiko's pricing strategy though. The SLA017 was expensive - double that of a Marinemaster for the same movement. The SLA037 has the 5hz 8L55 in it....but it also costs as much as an entry level Rolex.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

captainmorbid said:


> Good thing you heard about the flyover!
> 
> Out of context... creeepy..
> 
> ...


I remember being at a WWII anniversary event, lots of people in 1940's outfits, both civilian and military, lots of period cars, military stuff, music and dancing from that era. Best bit was the low flying passes from a Spitfire, it was low enough that we could see the pilot waving, but the sound (and the chest rumble....) from the engine was fantastic.......


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Eh, I don't think 3-lines of text at 6 is much worse than 2. My SKSARB says the exact same thing at the bottom, and I think it's fine. I suppose you could argue that nobody cares how many jewels the 4R has in it, and that printing the WR on a sporty dress watch with a push-pull crown is kind of pointless, but they're still better than "PRESAGE" or the Prospex "X."
> 
> These new models I think will probably be pretty popular given how nice their dials are, so I'm sure Crystal Times will come up with a replacement sapphire crystal for them sooner or later. They're just not going to do Sapphire for <$500 now, nor will they use the 6R in watches at that price. To me the only real meaningful difference between the 4R and 6R15 is the roughly 10 hours less power reserve. That, and the 6R15 costs 3X as much to replace. Granted the 6R35 has much more, but I don't care that much about power reserve.
> 
> ...


I'm not a huge fan of the Prospex "X" on so much of what Seiko does now, but I don't mind the look of "PRESAGE" on the dials. They usually keep it pretty clean. 3 lines of text is just pushing it a bit for me. Especially on a model like the SZSB that I feel they were trying to make look clean and balanced. They kind of cheaped out and downgraded the SDGM/SARX/SARB models. Seiko used to nail design in the past, but can't seem to do it anymore for me. Same with their value aspect. I'm sure someone could come out with a sapphire crystal, but why not have it come stock with one? Same with all of the unsigned crowns that they use now. Why offer it on lower priced models in the past and now get rid of it? It reminds me of when Samsung came out with their "waterproof" S5 and then tried to make the S6 non waterproof. You shouldn't be moving backwards as a company, yet so many do.

You are correct; the Seiko Padi Mas was the watch I had. The SBDC055 to be specific. Its bezel action was smoother than my [stock] Orient Mako USA IIs, but for ~$100 I have now modded the bezels to have ceramic inserts and better grip on the new bezels so the action is much smoother. The SBDC055 was a looker, but didn't feel right on my wrist. I wanted to fall in love with it and get some of the other PadiMas variations, but couldn't. The 6R15 movement is overrated to me, and the finishing on the indices were the same as the indices on my Mako USA IIs. It just wasn't worth the extra $ to me, so I sold it. I did love the look of the dial and two tone lume though. I'm hoping to get an Omega down the road with a wave dial because of how much I love that look on a diver.

I believe Rolex has plenty of higher end divers in 40mm sizes, but that is a completely different price range. The 62MAS reissues just don't do it for me at any size. It's really the fact that they're using the 6R15 in it, and I'm really not a fan of that movement anymore after enough bad experiences with it. I think it would be fine in a sub $500 watch. Even though I had a nicely regulated one in my SARX029, I still think more expensive watches (especially the ones ~$1k and up) should have something better in them. Like you said the MSRP for the SLA017 that had an upgraded movement was fair, but I can't see myself paying what people want for a used one now or what Seiko will want for the new versions of it. I'd rather search and spend my money on an original 62MAS.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

DIY Skipjack. Good thing I have two wrists and no shame.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Nice Seiko thread, doc. 

Karma


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> Nice Seiko thread, doc.
> 
> Karma
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My thoughts exactly. Dont own a Seiko. Dont want a Seiko. Dont need a Seiko.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Here is a pic to break up random WOTs.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> I remember being at a WWII anniversary event, lots of people in 1940's outfits, both civilian and military, lots of period cars, military stuff, music and dancing from that era. Best bit was the low flying passes from a Spitfire, it was low enough that we could see the pilot waving, but the sound (and the chest rumble....) from the engine was fantastic.......


If the sound of a V-12 Merlin engine doesn't send chills down your spine, you ain't alive. Experienced the same feeling during a P-51 flyby some years ago.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Here's one of my favorites.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

captainmorbid said:


> Good thing you heard about the flyover!
> 
> Out of context... creeepy..
> 
> ...


Love a good fly over, we get the A10 and F35 here in Boise


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> If the sound of a V-12 Merlin engine doesn't send chills down your spine, you ain't alive. Experienced the same feeling during a P-51 flyby some years ago.


Yep. I've heard a Merlin that run on its own, not in an airframe, my god the sound and vibration close up was enough to turn my spine to jelly......


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> If the sound of a V-12 Merlin engine doesn't send chills down your spine, you ain't alive. Experienced the same feeling during a P-51 flyby some years ago.


Try being out in the woods at night when a AC-130 Spectre is overhead practicing strafing runs.

It sounds like God ripping a whole in the skiy.

I nearly $hlt my pants the first time I heard one.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Military brat, grew up on or near Air Force bases. Cannot tell you how many times I went to airshows and saw various demonstration squads like Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, etc. We were even stationed at Edwards AFB for a while, and I used to love the thrill of the semi-regular sonic booms, which, come to find out, are generally frowned upon at bases in more populous areas. And once you've been relatively close to an X-15, various other experimental aircraft, and as close to an SR-71 as allowed in the 70s, plus got to attend the B-1 rollout event... just not willing to go out of my way for stuff like this any longer.

Say what's all this about NTH microbrands in a Seiko thread...?

BTW, re. GMT bezels: Elshan Tang just showed his Horizons GMT II, which is now revised with a 48-click bi-directional bezel. He had previously caught flack for a 60-click bezel...


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Try being out in the woods at night when a AC-130 Spectre is overhead practicing strafing runs.
> 
> It sounds like God ripping a whole in the skiy.
> 
> I nearly $hlt my pants the first time I heard one.


Once was out climbing in the mountains and got buzzed by a very low flying harrier jump jet, I literally let wee out on that occasion......


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## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Try being out in the woods at night when a AC-130 Spectre is overhead practicing strafing runs.
> 
> It sounds like God ripping a whole in the skiy.
> 
> I nearly $hlt my pants the first time I heard one.


I used to live under the flight path for Moffett Field in Mountain View, CA, and we got lots of interesting stuff, but nothing extreme like that. Whenever they had an airshow, we'd get the various aircraft turning around outside our balcony, which made for a fun afternoon.

The thing I remember best is how the P3 Orion sub hunters were constantly taking off and landing, and they'd mess with the TV reception every time they went overhead. This was before cable - we were the tail end of the rabbit ears generation!


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Just as heads up, page and cooper seem to be proceeding along with bankruptcy / liquidation.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/page-cooper-bankrupt-not-shipping-orders-5171187.html
(from that thread)


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Just as heads up, page and cooper seem to be proceeding along with bankruptcy / liquidation.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/page-cooper-bankrupt-not-shipping-orders-5171187.html
> (from that thread)
> View attachment 15076561


Posted it earlier in f71 to keep folks aware.....

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/page-cooper-bankrupt-5173291.html#post51575253

Their website still appears to be taking orders.....

.....NTH aren't listed there anymore.


----------



## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

*CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT WATCHES IN THIS THREAD ALREADY?!?* This is clearly place for people to post their experiences looking at planes. Not Seiko watches or least of all anything from NTH. I don't come onto PlaneUSaw.com for all of this watch talk! :-d ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those of you who aren't on Facebook or Instragram, you probably haven't seen the recent posts about some of the Subs models which are very low on inventory.

I'm tracking inventory for 35 different models which are still in stock, somewhere. On average, it's single-digit inventory for all of them, but there are some which are very low, and only available at one or two retailers.

Just going down the list...

Dolphin Magenta, with date - last two left in the world are at IntoWatch - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=90&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Odin Blue, no date - last two in the world are at Watch Gauge - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nth-odin-blue-no-date

Odin Blue, with date - last two in the world are at Serious Watches - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-odin-blue-date

Odin Black, with date - last two in the world, one at IntoWatch, and one at Five:45.

Barracuda Blue - last two pieces left in the world, both at Serious - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-blue-no-date-1

Barracuda Brown - last one in the world is at Five:45 - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nth-brown-barracuda-no-date?_pos=8&_sid=97a77ea00&_ss=r

Nacken Vintage Blue - last two left in the world are at IntoWatch - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=81&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Nacken Vintage White - last one left in the world is at The Watchdrobe - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/sub-nackenvintagewhite

Amphion Commando, No date - last two in the world are at Watch Gauge - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/amphion-commando-no-date

Amphion Commando, with date - last two in the world, also at Watch Gauge - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/amphion-commando-date-reserved

Nacken Modern Blue - last one in the world is at Serious - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nacken-modern-blue-date-v2

If you've been thinking about buying any of those new, I wouldn't wait. We've been posting these on FB and IG since the weekend, and we're seeing that the numbers available are changing rapidly.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I had the pleasure of attending the Abbotsford airshow in 86.

SR-71.

Nimrod.

Concord.

So glad I saw the Blackbird, never have I had my skeleton vibrated that intensely. Still my favourite. 

Again in 89.

MiG 29.

An-225.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Some Seiko's to get things back on track.....














































Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...








Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

And just to even my account.....





































Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> DIY Skipjack. Good thing I have two wrists and no shame.


Awesome! Very much appreciate the pics of the Transocean/SARB059 combo. That's definitely what I'll be doing with mine. I think that actually looks better than the original SARB059 hands with that dial. I'll be putting those into my Jade Samurai mod.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> My thoughts exactly. Dont own a Seiko. Dont want a Seiko. Dont need a Seiko.
> View attachment 15075501


Every watch fan needs at least _one_ Seiko.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Since this is now the watches and planes thread, I had the immense pleasure of seeing one of these in person in London several years go. Spoiled me for anything else.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > My thoughts exactly. Dont own a Seiko. Dont want a Seiko. Dont need a Seiko.
> ...


Dont get me wrong, I respect the hell out of Seiko. And I've got nothing against Seiko lovers by any means. But I've yet to see a Seiko that really spoke to me, that made me say "I gotta have it". Even the ones that have Grand on 'em.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> True story -
> 
> The closest part of the flight path to me is a town called Ardmore, about a 10 minute drive (7 miles) away, to the East. The local paper said they'd be over this area (Philly) between 2pm and 2:45pm.
> 
> ...


Doc,
Since you missed the flyover because of work, here's a look-see.

https://www.wthr.com/article/heres-what-it-looked-cockpit-blue-angels-nyc-flyover


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Even the ones that have Grand on 'em.


Grand is for hipsters... how about "SPECIAL" or "COSC" ?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

With the COVID stuff around I find myself drinking more coffee than I already do, can't be just me...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Watch with an airplane. Tomorrow's photo, a watch with an espresso machine...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Watch with an airplane. Tomorrow's photo, a watch with an espresso machine...


can't compete with an airplane photo and that mesh bracelet made me think.

Anyone remember vintage mesh style?

Much thinner with elegant clasps. 
Some of the better ones had solid endlinks that left no gaps between bracelet and watch (with the mesh following the radius of the watch case)

Wish we would see them more often used...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> can't compete with an airplane photo and that mesh bracelet made me think.
> 
> Anyone remember vintage mesh style?
> 
> ...


This is a thicker version of the older style. Staib. One of my most comfortable bracelets.









I started to take a photo of it in front of the espresso machine, but it's too late for coffee...

But this is a stolen photo off the bay that more closely illustrates what you describe, I think.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Question for my UK peeps - anyone here had any experience doing business with an eBay seller called "thewatchmenco" based in Leeds?

https://www.ebay.com/usr/thewatchmenco?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

I just spotted that they have three NTH Subs for sale, recent models, and not priced very cheaply, either. The listings are "pre-owned", but the prices are just a hair under what they cost new.

If anyone here buys one, I'd appreciate knowing if they were in fact new, not pre-owned.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Are you seeing it in pounds or dollars? That link showed me just over $800, £647.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Are you seeing it in pounds or dollars? That link showed me just over $800, £647.


I see prices in both pounds and dollars.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> At a guess, probably something to do with the insolvency of P&C. And the prices are inflated which suggests a seller that is unfamiliar with prices for NTH.
> 
> EDIT: It goes without saying if there are unsold watches or funds derived from NTH watches that is owed to NTH by P&C, then Doc or his attorneys should be contacting the administrator of the insolvency process. I believe a PDF was posted of the insolvency document which listed the administrator and an attorney representing P&C. That would be the place to start.
> 
> FURTHER EDIT: I guess Doc won't be funding the glidelock for the masses anytime soon.


This sort of comment is exactly why I hesitated to post anything about it.

Let's not prompt nor fuel speculation, or suggest connections where none may exist, or make implications. Let's not feed the already ravenous internet rumor mill.

I just want to know, if anyone buys any of those NTH Subs, if the watch purchased is in fact new, not used. There's nothing more to my request than that.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Question for my UK peeps - anyone here had any experience doing business with an eBay seller called "thewatchmenco" based in Leeds?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/usr/thewatchmenco?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
> 
> ...


Not heard or bought anything from this seller before Doc.......


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Did somebody say Seiko?

View attachment DSC_2170.jpg


















View attachment DSC_4786.jpg










View attachment DSC_0268.jpg


















View attachment DSC_3102.jpg










View attachment DSC_7388.jpg


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> This sort of comment is exactly why I hesitated to post anything about it.
> 
> Let's not prompt nor fuel speculation, or suggest connections where none may exist, or make implications. Let's not feed the already ravenous internet rumor mill.
> 
> I just want to know, if anyone buys any of those NTH Subs, if the watch purchased is in fact new, not used. There's nothing more to my request than that.


I just had a look at the listings and I do find it a little odd that they only have a render and no photos of the watches. If they actually had them to hand why not take photos?

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Speaking of Seiko, stph_dxtr's custom dial work is _insane_. This looks like it's from some alternate universe where Seiko made the Scafograph instead of Eberhard.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Day 2. Espresso. If the photo is blurry, well so is the photographer...


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Man those Amphion Commandos continue to call my name. And the Odin. May have to acquire two more Subs. 

Not for a bit though, just put a deposit on one of those new smaller Sinn divers. Very similar dimensions to the Subs I might add, but I could have probably added 4 new Subs for the price. Oh well, when the time comes maybe I'll flip it.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> I just had a look at the listings and I do find it a little odd that they only have a render and no photos of the watches. If they actually had them to hand why not take photos?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Nothing that unusual, folks are sometimes downright lazy with ebay listings.....

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Dont get me wrong, I respect the hell out of Seiko. And I've got nothing against Seiko lovers by any means. But I've yet to see a Seiko that really spoke to me, that made me say "I gotta have it". Even the ones that have Grand on 'em.


Thats why I end up doing mod builds lol


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Dont get me wrong, I respect the hell out of Seiko. And I've got nothing against Seiko lovers by any means. But I've yet to see a Seiko that really spoke to me, that made me say "I gotta have it". Even the ones that have Grand on 'em.


Is it weird that I own 10 divers and this is my only Seiko? And I do like the brand. The new reinterpretations of the 62MAS and Captain Willard especially.








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Speaking of Seiko, stph_dxtr's custom dial work is _insane_. This looks like it's from some alternate universe where Seiko made the Scafograph instead of Eberhard.


That Eberhard Scafograph. Saw it recently for the first time in a SOTC video. Thought it looks very nice and I want one... then I saw the prices on ebay... ha ha

What do I like about it?

- dial design, legible and different

- hands, especially the hour hand works great with the triangle markers

- crown - look how slender it blends inside the case

- case, I always preferred the "Omega twisted style" over the Rolex oyster case. (assuming its an "original" omega style) Its just that the perfect Rolex oyster is a thing of the past and NTH made the first case that absolutely spoke to me. 
Current Omegas are either too fat, have the weird He valve nipple or plain simple ugly dials (subjective opinion)

This, with a beads of poop, NTH on the dial and - as always - great dial designs would make me very happy...


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## DaNgErMoUsE_DET (Jul 27, 2019)

I have owned a lot of NtH watches and they are solid pieces, this is currently my favorite and last one i Ian currently from the brand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DaNgErMoUsE_DET said:


> I have owned a lot of NtH watches and they are solid pieces, this is currently my favorite and last one i Ian currently from the brand.


First post!

Welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum (aka "F71"), and the NTH thread.

Glad you like the watch.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Question for my UK peeps - anyone here had any experience doing business with an eBay seller called "thewatchmenco" based in Leeds?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/usr/thewatchmenco?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
> 
> ...





Omegafanboy said:


> I just had a look at the listings and I do find it a little odd that they only have a render and no photos of the watches. If they actually had them to hand why not take photos?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


It looks like they have actual photos of the watches up now. I can see a bit of wear on the one that I clicked (microscratches on the bracelet and a ding or two on the case), so I would speculate that the ones they are selling are indeed pre-owned and not new.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Did somebody say Seiko?
> 
> View attachment 15078543
> 
> ...





Seikogi said:


> This, with a beads of poop, NTH on the dial and - as always - great dial designs would make me very happy...


The way some of you can take such beautiful photos makes me think that if anyone made a beads of poop bracelet, I'd still be enticed to buy one as long as it used as high quality sales photos as those pictures of your Seikos. |>


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

mgp123 said:


> The way some of you can take such beautiful photos makes me think that if anyone made a beads of poop bracelet, I'd still be enticed to buy one as long as it used as high quality sales photos as those pictures of your Seikos. |>


sry uvalaw, love your photos but ...


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## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Since this is now the watches and planes thread, I had the immense pleasure of seeing one of these in person in London several years go. Spoiled me for anything else.
> 
> View attachment 15077279


That makes me think of the aerial version of a Jaguar D type, before it's weighted down by all that paint!


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Nth in the Nth thread

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Yet another picture of a NTH watch in the NTH thread. Who would'a thunk it? 









Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Giveaway.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/giveaway-25k-posts-5174187.html


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Do we get double points for an upside down picture like yours?! 

Aw who am I kidding... you know damn well the winner wont be a name that frequents this thread!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Do we get double points for an upside down picture like yours?!
> 
> Aw who am I kidding... you know damn well the winner wont be a name that frequents this thread!


Weird. The image was uploaded from my PC, and was right-side-up when I looked at it on my PC, but upside down in Tapatalk.

But, I just fixed it.

With randomly-chosen winners, it's anyone's guess who'll it'll be.


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## graham.r (Apr 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Question for my UK peeps - anyone here had any experience doing business with an eBay seller called "thewatchmenco" based in Leeds?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/usr/thewatchmenco?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
> 
> ...


On the Barracuda Modern Blue,
Bracelet has been sized,
In the last photo, on the clasp, left side there is a tiny scratch or mark, and on the signed clasp fliplock, there is also a small mark. 
I would guess maybe, this could be a return, or ex showroom stock?

On the Barracuda Vintage Black, 
Described as very light wear, and visible desk diving marks on the bracelet clasp,
so not new.

As to the Barracuda Blue,
Also this maybe a return as, bracelet has been resized,
and again, on the last photo the is very slight damage to the last micro adjuster hole on the clasp.
So maybe a return or ex showroom stock?...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Weird. The image was uploaded from my PC, and was right-side-up when I looked at it on my PC, but upside down in Tapatalk.
> 
> But, I just fixed it.


Aha. It's NOT just me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Aha. It's NOT just me.


Nope. Not just you. You're just at the top of the leaderboard.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Man... I don't visit the forum for a week or two, and suddenly we've got 96 pages of Seikos and airplanes.

Re: The AC-130 Spectre, I had a bad night in the Hindu Kush back in 2003 that would have been a lot worse if Spectre hadn't been on station all night. Reaper Three Zero, if you're still out there somewhere, cheers.

Might have even been a small part of why I cajoled Doc into selling me this demo model after missing the bus on the initial sale. Between 15 and 25 seconds, you can almost imagine the yellow second hand as a rain of 25mm scunion.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

Been away for a bit and I wasn't aware of this new venture. Looks really nice Chris. Well built, unique designs. Well done.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Man... I don't visit the forum for a week or two, and suddenly we've got 96 pages of Seikos and airplanes.
> 
> Re: The AC-130 Spectre, I had a bad night in the Hindu Kush back in 2003 that would have been a lot worse if Spectre hadn't been on station all night. Reaper Three Zero, if you're still out there somewhere, cheers.
> 
> Might have even been a small part of why I cajoled Doc into selling me this demo model after missing the bus on the initial sale. Between 15 and 25 seconds, you can almost imagine the yellow second hand as a rain of 25mm scunion.


I also picked up a blue-dialed Spectre II no-date not too long ago, but with the orange second-hand. I'm planning on giving it to one of my sons, eventually.

I like that bracelet on yours. What is it?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gagnello said:


> Been away for a bit and I wasn't aware of this new venture. Looks really nice Chris. Well built, unique designs. Well done.


Wait, what?

Do you mean NTH?

Man, you have been away a while. We started NTH in 2016.

Welcome back.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Peteagus said:


> Nth in the Nth thread
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great photo...... :-!


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I also picked up a blue-dialed Spectre II no-date not too long ago, but with the orange second-hand. I'm planning on giving it to one of my sons, eventually.
> 
> I like that bracelet on yours. What is it?


Strapcode Hexad Oyster. Fits and looks like it was made specifically for this watch.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> Do you mean NTH?
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have been on from time to time for a few years but not with any regularity. Having a kid sort of changed what I was doing in my free time looking back on it. Never stopped loving watches or enjoying my collection though. I have been around a bit more as of late.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> Do you mean NTH?
> 
> ...


Duplicate


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Love this thing.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Here's my pic I uploaded to Doc's giveaway yesterday. I just realized I should have uploaded it here too.









I almost forgot that the NTH thread wasn't only for planes and Seikos. ;-)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Strapcode Hexad Oyster. Fits and looks like it was made specifically for this watch.


Yeah. I wasn't crazy about how the end-links came out on the Spectre II's bracelet, but it was as good as we could get it. That hexad does look like it's a good match on style.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

mgp123 said:


> Here's my pic I uploaded to Doc's giveaway yesterday. I just realized I should have uploaded it here too.
> 
> View attachment 15082141
> 
> ...


That is a perfect strap for that watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

mgp123 said:


> Here's my pic I uploaded to Doc's giveaway yesterday. I just realized I should have uploaded it here too.
> 
> View attachment 15082141
> 
> ...


Looks good. What giveaway?


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## highend (Feb 14, 2020)

SteamJ said:


> Looks good. What giveaway?


Doc is having a giveaway to mark 25k posts.
You send a wrist shot of your watch which should be below $1k, and location too.
He picks at random.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_8218.jpg


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

SteamJ said:


> What giveaway?


https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/#/topics/5174187?page=1


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

View attachment hehe.jpg


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> Is it weird that I own 10 divers and this is my only Seiko? And I do like the brand. The new reinterpretations of the 62MAS and Captain Willard especially.
> View attachment 15079203
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not at all! That's a fantastic SKX mod. For as much of a Seiko fanboy as I am, I actually don't really like any of their divers that much in stock form. The default SKX is bland, the finishing on the Sammy is lousy and (prior to the very latest ceramic version) I never really liked the Sammy bezel insert. The Turtle is alright, but kind of doughy. I wish it was sharper, more like a Doxa case. The models with shrouds aren't for me, the Sumo I think has awkward proportions (should be 22mm lug width) and the Shogun is "fine" but also kind of boring. The ZIMBE Shoguns are cool, but now your $1000 titanium diver is $2500+ because they only made 500 of them for Thailand. $2500 would buy you an Omega SMPc. What I love about Seiko divers isn't what they are, but what you can do with them.

I'm curious where that bezel and insert came from on your mod. I don't recognize those as being from the typical sources (DLW, Dagaz, Namoki, Yobokies etc) looks like the insert is lumed?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yeah. I wasn't crazy about how the end-links came out on the Spectre II's bracelet, but it was as good as we could get it. That hexad does look like it's a good match on style.


I'm with you on the end links, but still an overall great watch. I'm still trying to convince 49 friends to go in with me on a sub with a Spectre II dial + hand set and 12 hour bezel. Problem is, I don't have 49 friends.


----------



## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> That is a perfect strap for that watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks; I think so too! I lucked out. It came with the watch when I bought it used years ago. I'm not 100% sure of the brand or availability of the strap anymore, but it says "C.S.W." and "F71" on the buckle which I believe is Cincy Strap Works.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

SteamJ said:


> Looks good. What giveaway?


Doc is doing a watch giveaway for his 25,000th post here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/giveaway-25k-posts-5174187.html


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cheerz,

Alan

Dang that dub-post....... Have another picture of a diffo watch.....


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> Thanks; I think so too! I lucked out. It came with the watch when I bought it used years ago. I'm not 100% sure of the brand or availability of the strap anymore, but it says "C.S.W." and "F71" on the buckle which I believe is Cincy Strap Works.


Yup, it was a special strap made by Cincy Strap Works just for the commander 300. I keep mine on a Seiko 5 these days...









I believe there were also variants in blue?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Going to throw the tikuna on a Erika's later today. After a few hours with the turtle. Also the give away is a nice gesture Mr. Vail.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> Not at all! That's a fantastic SKX mod. For as much of a Seiko fanboy as I am, I actually don't really like any of their divers that much in stock form. The default SKX is bland, the finishing on the Sammy is lousy and (prior to the very latest ceramic version) I never really liked the Sammy bezel insert. The Turtle is alright, but kind of doughy. I wish it was sharper, more like a Doxa case. The models with shrouds aren't for me, the Sumo I think has awkward proportions (should be 22mm lug width) and the Shogun is "fine" but also kind of boring. The ZIMBE Shoguns are cool, but now your $1000 titanium diver is $2500+ because they only made 500 of them for Thailand. $2500 would buy you an Omega SMPc. What I love about Seiko divers isn't what they are, but what you can do with them.
> 
> I'm curious where that bezel and insert came from on your mod. I don't recognize those as being from the typical sources (DLW, Dagaz, Namoki, Yobokies etc) looks like the insert is lumed?
> 
> View attachment 15083541


Thanks mate! That red Seiko mod is sweet. My SKX mod is only my second mod (and I didn't do the assembly). I was going for an homage to the Omega Spectre 300. Full rundown: Dagaz "special agent" dial/"agent" hands/chapter ring, Murphy bezel, Yobokies "Spectre" lumed bezel insert, Crystal Times clear AR double domed crystal. The bezel is sweet and Dave Murphy was super helpful. The Dagaz dial is very impressive with a patterned texture. I got lucky because the lume all matches. I would have gone for a real one piece Bond Nato but it would have made it sit up too high on my puny wrist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Scottya (Jan 30, 2015)

What were you doing in the woods at night Doc? I'm assuming you were in the redneck Rivera of LA (lower Alabama/FL panhandle)?

Word is you'll be making more 40mm subs next Spring...yes?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scottya said:


> What were you doing in the woods at night Doc? I'm assuming you were in the redneck Rivera of LA (lower Alabama/FL panhandle)?


The "docvail" moniker is an online username I started using back in the mid-90's, at the dawning of the internet age, when I was an Army medic at the 6th Ranger Training Battalion, where they conduct the swamp phase of Ranger School, on the Florida panhandle (Eglin Air Force Base, in Fort Walton Beach, to be specific).

Trust me, I wouldn't have been out traipsing through the woods at night otherwise. Too many spiderwebs, and pointy-branches at eye-level. Don't even get me started on the mosquitoes, scorpions, brown recluse spiders, wild boar, poisonous snakes, and alligators out in the swamps.

Or the Ranger Instructors. They were the often the worst. Constantly bossing everyone around, setting off artillery simulators, and getting up to all sorts of other dubious tomfoolery.

Being infantry soldiers by training, with a disdain for anyone who wasn't infantry, and seeing as how many of the guys in the medic platoon were out of shape (by Ranger standards), myself included, many of the Ranger Instructors didn't seem overly concerned with learning our names, instead referring to any of us as simply, "Doc".

It was a small point of pride for me, that among the 20 or so medics there, I seemed to be the most tolerated, and many of the RI's knew my name, hence, "Doc Vail".

It was also kind of annoying. Because they knew my name, and I was seen as at least semi-worthy and somewhat competent, they'd often request I get assigned to patrol with them (out in the woods, at night, with all the creepy crawlies, and the pointy-ouchies), whereas my peers would get to lay around and nap in the humvees, positioned with the primary instructor of the day.

---

If I sound slightly nostalgic about it all, that's only because I am. I kind of miss it. You'd be surprised how much hilarious $hlt can happen in situations where everyone is supposed to be acting very serious (like simulated combat). There were a few primary instructors who were fairly merry pranksters...

I'll never forget, after a long day of patrolling, sitting by a campfire with the Ranger Instructors I'd been with all day. The primary instructor, Sgt Dykman, had excused himself to go off into the darkness about 20 minutes earlier, presumably to make like the proverbial bear (by taking a $hlt in the woods, for anyone who didn't get the reference).

All of a sudden, we heard a shrill scream from down the hill, the direction we'd come from.

All of the Ranger student platoons were positioned on a hillside opposite us. To get to where we were, a Ranger Instructor would need to walk down the hill, cross a little creek on a wooden pallet turned into a makeshift footbridge, then walk up the hill we were on.

A minute or two after the scream, the young Sgt Teague appeared by the fire. We asked him if he knew what that was. It sounded like a movie "scream queen" from a horror movie.

"That was me. F**king Dykman got me."

It seems that Dykman wasn't taking a long $hlt. Instead, he was crouched down, hiding inside a bush right by the bridge, with his uniform pulled up over his head. Just as Teague stepped off, Dykman came rushing out, hunched over and growling, pretending to be a wild boar. Apparently it was one of his recurring gags.

All military discipline immediately flew out the window. We couldn't help it. Every one of us was in tears, laughing. It only got worse when Dykman came sauntering up the hill, headgear kicked back on his head like a hayseed, wearing a $hlt-eating grin.

We cajoled him to go back down and try to get someone else. Teague was especially vocal with his support of the idea, probably praying he wouldn't be the only one to scream like an 8 year old girl that night. But Dykman came back about ten minutes later, along with two other RI's.

I forget the one guy's name, but he was one of a handful of Samoans in our battalion, and not to be trifled with. None of the Samoans were. Nice guys, all of them, but hard as woodpecker lips, and each one capable of snapping a man's neck without flinching. Following a fight one of them had been in, I'd heard he'd needed to be pulled off the guy he was fighting. He had the guy straddled, and was slowly pressing both his thumbs onto the guy's eye-balls.

Dykman looked a bit rattled. We could all guess why.

Apparently he tried to get this guy the same way he got Teague. But the guy just jabbed him, hard, with the sharp end of his walking stick, before dropping into a wrestler's stance and lunging for the "boar".

As Dykman put it, "he tried to ju-jitsu me, that crazy Samoan bastard."

Again, howls of laughter ensued.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scottya said:


> Word is you'll be making more 40mm subs next Spring...yes?


Funny you ask. I was just looking at the production plan last night. For now, the timeline is still uncertain. There's an outside chance we might make more late this year, but it may not be until sometime next year, we just have to see.

Candidly, I think we ramped up Subs production a little too quickly over the last two years, so my current thinking is to not produce any more unless and until we see more pent up demand.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm normally a bracelet guy, but the Oberon II totally sings on a strap.

Sent from a van down by the river...


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## riff raff (Dec 28, 2015)

My non-military hat is off to you Doc!
As a 30-something year old artillery Captain, my brother decided he should do the Ranger Advance Camp.
If the instructors had disdain for non-Infantry guys, officers were apparently even lower on the s-pole.
My brother made it, but the experience gave him a near mental breakdown, after he drove home to Ft. Sill.
I think there 110 in his class to start and less than 20 made it. 
Tough bastards!



docvail said:


> The "docvail" moniker is an online username I started using back in the mid-90's, at the dawning of the internet age, when I was an Army medic at the 6th Ranger Training Battalion, where they conduct the swamp phase of Ranger School, on the Florida panhandle (Eglin Air Force Base, in Fort Walton Beach, to be specific).
> 
> Trust me, I wouldn't have been out traipsing through the woods at night otherwise. Too many spiderwebs, and pointy-branches at eye-level. Don't even get me started on the mosquitoes, scorpions, brown recluse spiders, wild boar, poisonous snakes, and alligators out in the swamps.
> 
> ...


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## Scottya (Jan 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> Funny you ask. I was just looking at the production plan last night. For now, the timeline is still uncertain. There's an outside chance we might make more late this year, but it may not be until sometime next year, we just have to see.
> 
> Candidly, I think we ramped up Subs production a little too quickly over the last two years, so my current thinking is to not produce any more unless and until we see more pent up demand.


Thanks for your service Doc and sharing that crazy experience with us! I spent 5 years at Hurlburt Field and appreciate your fear of venturing out at night in the panhandle...too many damn critters.

I just purchased that Oberon about a month ago and really appreciate your brand...great looking piece. I was too late to the game I guess to get a Nacken Vintage Blue, or Barracuda Vintage Black. I'm hoping you'll make another batch. Keep up the great work Doc.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

riff raff said:


> My non-military hat is off to you Doc!
> As a 30-something year old artillery Captain, my brother decided he should do the Ranger Advance Camp.
> If the instructors had disdain for non-Infantry guys, officers were apparently even lower on the s-pole.
> My brother made it, but the experience gave him a near mental breakdown, after he drove home to Ft. Sill.
> ...


I'm sure a lot's changed in the last 20-plus years since I was there. I left the unit in '98.

I don't even know what "Advance Camp" is. I assume it's new. But, when I was there, none of the students had any rank in Ranger School. They were all just "Studs". Short for "students".

Not to say that we didn't have some idea about the rank of each. Most infantry officers would be sent there soon after earning their commission, so they were all in their very early 20's. With the enlisted soldiers, it was usually guys a couple years younger, who enlisted right out of high school, or older guys, who came from other MOS's ("Military Occupational Specialty").

To their credit, I think most Ranger Instructors treated them all equally, which is to say, like $hlt, but here and there, I did get the sense that many of the RI's, who were all senior enlisted, thought that the officers in our battalion tended to look after the officers among the students, and show them some favoritism when a "situation" played out.

Again, I'll never forget...

One day, just after the school phase ended, and the studs had turned their weapons into the armory, we were told the entire camp was being put on lockdown. It was very abrupt, and unusual. Lots of guys were talking, and there was a sense of all hell breaking loose.

It seemed that one or more of the students had turned in their weapons missing a part of the firing mechanism, a bolt, carrier, or pin, something like that. It was only a matter of time until the armory records could determine who the weapons had been assigned to. But they wanted everyone to stay put until they could locate the parts.

This was no joke. I'd never heard of anything like this. The situation didn't last long. They figured out whose weapons they were, and pulled the kids in, which set off even more trouble.

The boys were both officers, at least one a West Point Grad. Apparently, angry at failing the course, and having to repeat it, or be sent packing, they buried the parts before turning their weapons in. They were in deep $hlt. Totally screwed.

I started to hear RI's grumbling. From what I could gather, they thought the boys should be strung up, literally court-martialed, but that wasn't going to happen. Apparently whatever was happening to them was seen as just a slap on the wrist, and the general consensus was that it was because they were "ring-knockers", as West Point grads were called, and "knew the secret handshake."

The atmosphere around camp was pretty tense for a while after that. I remember some of the RI's bristling when their pass/fail (how many students they passed, versus failed) ratio was being judged by the officers. Some would make offhand remarks about it, suggesting things about which students should be passed or not based on their rank.

True story - the guy who persuaded me to join the army was the older brother of a close friend, and an infantry captain. He'd gone through the course, twice. He failed the first time, and broke his leg the second. He knew he'd never make Major without the Ranger Tab on his shoulder, so he switched to another branch, I think artillery.

Also true - One of my buddies, Mueller, was an infantry guy from the "OpFor" ("Opposing Force") platoon, the guys who pretended to be the enemy, for the studs to "kill". He went through the school while I was there, which was always weird, seeing a friend among the studs. He got through, easily enough (some dudes are just born hard), and as soon as he got back, he was promoted to sergeant.

And, almost as fast, he got demoted again, after an altercation with his platoon leader. Apparently he called the lieutenant a punk bltch or something like that. I thought he'd be upset about losing rank, but he wasn't. He just slapped his shoulder and said, "they can't take my tab".

Once he got his tab, he was kind of uncontrollable. They moved him from OpFor to the boat house - the guys charged with maintaining the boats used for training, and navigating the swamps. I think putting OpFor guys in the boat house was supposed to be seen as a punishment, but from what I could tell, it was pretty easy duty compared to schlepping around in the woods, getting "killed" by the studs every night.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> The "docvail" moniker is an online username I started using back in the mid-90's, at the dawning of the internet age, when I was an Army medic at the 6th Ranger Training Battalion, where they conduct the swamp phase of Ranger School, on the Florida panhandle (Eglin Air Force Base, in Fort Walton Beach, to be specific).
> 
> Trust me, I wouldn't have been out traipsing through the woods at night otherwise. Too many spiderwebs, and pointy-branches at eye-level. Don't even get me started on the mosquitoes, scorpions, brown recluse spiders, wild boar, poisonous snakes, and alligators out in the swamps.


Swamps... that would have been the worst training ground possible for me, not a fan of the creatures in there. Luckily there is no such thing in our peanut sized country in Europe.

I think most of whom had a hard military training have the love/hate nostalgic relationship. Looking back it was sort of fun but at the moment it really wasn't.

I much enjoy hearing/reading those nostalgic military stories!

Fun fact, in German we refer to what is light infantry or rangers (depening on context) as the "Jäger" unit. Like Jaeger LeCoultre but with a German pronunciation (I am still unsure how to properly say JLC)


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Anybody has Oberon on BOR bracelet pics? I thought I saw one, mind reposting please


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Strap changes









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scottya said:


> Thanks for your service Doc and sharing that crazy experience with us! I spent 5 years at Hurlburt Field and appreciate your fear of venturing out at night in the panhandle...too many damn critters.
> 
> I just purchased that Oberon about a month ago and really appreciate your brand...great looking piece. I was too late to the game I guess to get a Nacken Vintage Blue, or Barracuda Vintage Black. I'm hoping you'll make another batch. Keep up the great work Doc.


Honestly, it always feels weird when anyone thanks me for my service. I was never in combat, or at risk of much more than some verbal abuse. It was just a weird job I had for a while. As my mentor and friend Sgt Mack once said to me, after I voiced a frustration over something I thought was stupid, "Some days, it's just a long way to drive for breakfast."

It's a funnier line if you know the story.

I had to go over to Hurlburt a few times while I was in FL, but I'll be damned if I can remember why, or much, if anything about it.

---

There are still a couple (just 2, I think) Näcken Vintage Blues left available, at IntoWatch - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=81&cate_no=60&display_group=1.

Use the translate feature in your browser, if your browser has it, to get through checkout. If not, or if you need help, email Jun, the owner, at [email protected].

---

Like I said earlier, I was just thinking about the future production plans for the 40mm Subs on Friday. Currently, I'm tracking inventory for about 35 versions (counting date/no-date options as separate versions), down from 40 about 4-6 weeks ago, but I think that's just way too many. In the future, I think I'm going to keep the releases smaller - fewer pieces total, and fewer versions in each release.

When I look at everything we've made going back to 2016, out of about 40 models (counting date/no-date together, as one model) we've made, there are only 4-6 I foresee us making again, in the near-term, once we start producing them again, and almost all of those are models which have already sold out.

I'm thinking we'll make more of the Barracuda Vintage Black, the Näcken Modern Black, and the Näcken Modern Blue, for sure. Maybe we'll make more of the Scorpène Blue, the Näcken Renegade, and one other model. Everything else, we probably won't see again for some time, if ever.

So...once again, anyone looking at getting something currently available shouldn't think about it too long.


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

^ I think less is more is a good idea, although it might be cool to have the occasional NTH Subs 'novelty' release. Just to mix things up and make collectable pieces for people who dig that stuff.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Swamps... that would have been the worst training ground possible for me, not a fan of the creatures in there. Luckily there is no such thing in our peanut sized country in Europe.
> 
> I think most of whom had a hard military training have the love/hate nostalgic relationship. Looking back it was sort of fun but at the moment it really wasn't.
> 
> ...


In French, I believe it's pronounced somewhat like Zsa Zsa Gabor's first name would be, if you were pretty drunk, sort of "zhah-zher". At least, that's what I've been told by others who profess to know these things.

True story.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> ^ I think less is more is a good idea, although it might be cool to have the occasional NTH Subs 'novelty' release. Just to mix things up and make collectable pieces for people who dig that stuff.


Right. That's pretty much what I was thinking.

If we make every release 300 pieces, that might be just 6 models, which would like be evenly split between stuff that seems to always be in demand, and stuff that we make once in a blue moon, or just once, then never again.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Strap changes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are those generic tweezers or the fancy expensive ones? Do they help with lug scratches?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Strap changes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're doing it wrong! The drilled lugs on the case make it so you don't even need to used a fancy tool; you could use a paperclip!


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## graham.r (Apr 6, 2020)

Hey @docvail, are you aware of what's happened to Page & Cooper,
as, thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/page-cooper-experience-4715983-10.html#post51590265
Is that NTH shown in the list of creditors, Your NTH company?


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## graham.r (Apr 6, 2020)

Duplicate post, Deleted


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Honestly, it always feels weird when anyone thanks me for my service. I was never in combat, or at risk of much more than some verbal abuse. It was just a weird job I had for a while.


Honestly I've never thanked anyone for their service. The majority of veterans that I know and have met actually respect you more if you don't. The veterans who want to be thanked are the ones who usually have some superiority complex. So when someone tells me they served and I respond, "Don't expect me to thank you for anything"; I can find out pretty quickly what type of person they are.

Some of my closer friends over the years served in different branches. The Marines I know still always think of themselves as harder than everyone else, but my buddy who did Coast Guard got the best bang for his buck IMO. While the Marines usually came back with issues (mental and/or physical), my CG buddy mostly had great stories about how they'd be in the ocean blowing up boats full of cocaine and then taking leave in S. America where they could party their asses off. Even the other veterans I've met who I didn't know before they served usually feel the same about people thanking them for their service. I met a few in a TX jail once. The two I got to know better and who would discuss their time in the military had seen more serious action than most of the others I previously knew. They all had mental issues from their service that they were trying to get over and (although not admitting it directly) felt some shame for what they did while enlisted. They'd say things like "we had to shoot a bunch of towelheads" or something else like that; but when I would press them more on their feelings about it, they would admit they shouldn't have even been over there. Every one of them would say that the stuff going on in the Middle East isn't about protecting freedom or keeping Americans safer; it was about making money for the rich elites back home. One told me how they'd be walking through poppy fields with orders not to touch or destroy any of it. For those of you who don't know: the poppy plants are used to make heroin, opium, and other opiates which then get sold to support the surrounding areas (and more often than not the "terrorists"). That same soldier also became addicted to heroin ironically enough towards the end of his run in the military when he was no longer in combat zones but back around bases in Europe. Even my friend from the CG would tell me stories about how they'd destroy most of the drugs they found on boats by sinking it all while still in the ocean, but the stuff they "seized" would be taken by supposed government workers from who knows where in plain clothes driving Ryder trucks when they got back. This didn't surprise me because over the years I've heard stories from people who sold cocaine about how the CG brings a good bit of it back in and sells it in the US. Things similar to what was happening during the Iran-Contra affair still go on today!

To the ones who don't mind me not thanking them for their service, I tell them I don't have a problem with them taking advantage of the system and getting their money (pay and array of lifetime benefits). But also that I try to avoid taxes at all costs which is mostly why I don't mind since I'm not one of the people financially supporting them. :-d

They're pretty cool people though with some great stories. Some are messed up (the people and the stories), but so are most of us and our stories in general. I even had one waterboard me because I wasn't convinced that waterboarding felt exactly like drowning. I live in SFL and have almost drowned a few times in my life; the only good time to surf here is usually when people shouldn't be out in the ocean. FYI: It does feel like drowning! But it involves a bit more "technique" than just pouring water over a towel on someone's face who has their feet elevated. There is one key thing they leave out of all of the movies and shows where you see it happening that forces you to breathe the water in like when you are drowning.

So I won't thank you for your service, Doc, but I will tell you to keep getting your money. ;-)  And by that I mean continuing your watch business which I am a fan of! I also agree that you've released too many Subs in the past at once, and think that the more limited production runs are the way to go in the future.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

graham.r said:


> Hey @docvail, are you aware of what's happened to Page & Cooper,
> as, thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/page-cooper-experience-4715983-10.html#post51590265
> Is that NTH shown in the list of creditors, Your NTH company?


I'm very aware.

That is my company listed as a creditor.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Are those generic tweezers or the fancy expensive ones? Do they help with lug scratches?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


They are horofix and they make changing bracelets a breeze.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## graham.r (Apr 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'm very aware.
> 
> That is my company listed as a creditor.


Thanks for answering, did P&C sell/distribute NTH?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

graham.r said:


> Thanks for answering, did P&C sell/distribute NTH?


For a little over a year, yes.


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## graham.r (Apr 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> For a little over a year, yes.


Wow.. ok totally missed that one!, 
must have been and gone even quicker than Damasko&#8230;


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Velveteen rabbit is shocked by Odin lume


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Erika's on Vail's finest work









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

graham.r said:


> Wow.. ok totally missed that one!,
> must have been and gone even quicker than Damasko&#8230;


I don't know how long they worked with Damasko.

They started carrying NTH in fall of 2018, and stopped earlier this year.


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## ChadUGWC (Oct 17, 2018)

Näcken blue on a jubilee. I think it looks fantastic.

Also love hearing these military stories Doc.

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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ChadUGWC said:


> Näcken blue on a jubilee. I think it looks fantastic.
> 
> Also love hearing these military stories Doc.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Now that one's got some nice signs of use.


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## ChadUGWC (Oct 17, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Now that one's got some nice signs of use.


First gen and I have had it for nearly three years! Such a great watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Fun fact, in German we refer to what is light infantry or rangers (depening on context) as the "Jäger" unit. Like Jaeger LeCoultre but with a German pronunciation (I am still unsure how to properly say JLC)


I don't think anyone knows how to say Jaeger LeCoultre properly. I've seen everything from "Yay-ger Le-cult" to "Ja-jear Le-cultrey."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I don't think anyone knows how to say Jaeger LeCoultre properly. I've seen everything from "Yay-ger Le-cult" to "Ja-jear Le-cultrey."


Some people are pronouncing it correctly.

Everyone else is incorrect, whether they realize it or not.

That's just how words work.

I think it's French. Someone here speaks the language, I'm sure. Though I'd say the ultimate authority would be the owner of the name, since it's a proper noun.

If I see a guy's name written "Kaj", I might pronounce that "Kahzh". But if he says it's actually Dutch, and pronounced "Kai" (rhymes with "why"), I'm not going to argue with him. It's his name, and his language. He knows how to say it better than I do.

It's definitely not German, so it's definitely not "yay-gehr". What little I remember from one year of French, back in 7th grade, the "J" is pronounced "zh".

"Je ne sais quoi" isn't pronounced "Yeh ne say kwah". It's "zheh ne say kwah".

So, I'm pretty positive about the J. I'm less certain about the G.

This online pronunciation in French says the G is hard.

https://www.howtopronounce.com/french/jaeger-lecoultre-2

Either way, I'm glad I quit French for Spanish. Much easier, and the teacher was better looking.

She was muy caliente.


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

As it happens, I speak (badly) both German and French. And I suspect the real pronunciation of Jaeger-LeCoultre is...complicated.

The watchmaker Edmond Jaeger may have been French, but I'm willing to bet his family originally came from the border region in Alsace-Lorraine, which has changed hands multiple times between France and Germany. Jaeger is simply a way to spell Jäger without the umlaut. It's not a traditional French name, although there are French people who have it as their surname. It's really of German origin. It's tempting, therefore, to say "Yay-ger", which would approximate the German pronunciation.

However, being French, in accordance with French norms of pronunciation, he probably pronounced it something like "Zhay-zhair" (rhymes with légère, for those who remember their high school French). Which, combined with Le Coultre (which is very French) gives you something close to Zhay-zhair Le Cool-tra. 

And if there are any native French speakers here who want to chime in, I'd love to hear your take on it, and find out if my guess is right. 

Tap, talk, and report spammers and trolls to the mods. Life's too short, y'know?


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> I don't think anyone knows how to say Jaeger LeCoultre properly. I've seen everything from "Yay-ger Le-cult" to "Ja-jear Le-cultrey."


I found a video on the proper pronunciation according to this expert.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

According to WatchTime's guide, it's "zhey ZHER leh KOOLT." There is no "trey" or "tra."


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

^ That was always my understanding too.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

To me "Jäger" spoken in German with a fake french accent and "LeCoultre" spoken in French sounds best but is totally wrong.

Cba with the name and I stick to "JLC"

Here is more "NTH"

View attachment sedfd.jpg


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

ups, double post

insert.Seiko.image(King_Seiko);


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Interview with Lionel Favre, Product Design Director at Jaeger LeCoultre.
The interviewer at first mentions two pronunciations but then Favre uses the name at about 50 seconds into the talk:






Another exec of the company uses the name in this company video about 10 seconds in:


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> According to WatchTime's guide, it's "zhey ZHER leh KOOLT." There is no "trey" or "tra."


Jaeger, Jaeger, LeCoultre, LeCoultre, Let's call the whole thing off.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Love the new Oberon. It fixed the few things I didn't like about the original: Now has a red triangle, ditched the vintage lume, and ditched the Mercedes hands. Oh man.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

larand said:


> As it happens, I speak (badly) both German and French. And I suspect the real pronunciation of Jaeger-LeCoultre is...complicated.
> 
> The watchmaker Edmond Jaeger may have been French, but I'm willing to bet his family originally came from the border region in Alsace-Lorraine, which has changed hands multiple times between France and Germany. Jaeger is simply a way to spell Jäger without the umlaut. It's not a traditional French name, although there are French people who have it as their surname. It's really of German origin. It's tempting, therefore, to say "Yay-ger", which would approximate the German pronunciation.
> 
> ...


The last time someone who seemed to know more than I did told me how to pronounce it, that's how they said it was pronounced, more or less, with both the J and the G soft, like "zh", though with the first syllable more "zhah", than "zhay". But he didn't claim to speak French, so take that with a grain of salt.

The guy in the recording I found said the G hard, which would seem to comport with how some other French words are pronounced. But, again, as you say, it's a proper name, with German roots, but converted to French, and I have no idea if the G would be pronounced differently due to where it is within the word, or the letters on either side, the way many letters in English take on different sounds.

English is also a really stupid language, by the way. When I was learning Chinese Mandarin in the Army, our lead instructor, who was a native speaker (of Mandarin), told us that as hard as it was for a native English-speaker to learn Chinese, it was even harder for a native Chinese speaker to learn English, because of all the complicated rules.

I've heard people on the news pronounce words incorrectly. It's jarring when it happens. I think we all do it. I somehow got into the habit of pronouncing "forward" as "fo-ward", without that first "r". My wife and kids are always calling me out on it. I'm sure I sound like an imbecile.

My wife also tries to call me out on pronouncing "exit" as "egg-zit", but I tell her to eat $hlt, because that's an acceptable pronunciation. Then we start arguing about how she pronounces "often", with hard "T", which hurts my ears, and it sort of goes sideways from there.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Worn and Wound ignores NTH and now gives credit for the depth gauge rehaut to Audric:

_The rainbow of colors in the rehaut actually point to the key differentiating feature of the SeaBorne: they are meant to act as a depth gauge. Water impacts our ability to detect wavelengths of light. Red is absorbed first, followed by orange and yellow. The theory here is that by looking at the SeaBorne's dial at depth, you get a rough sense of how deep you've gone based on what colors are visible to you on the dial. This feels like more of a romantic notion than a serious way to keep track of your depth during what is, after all, a somewhat dangerous activity (in other words, don't rely on the SeaBorne as a substitute for a dive computer), but Audric gets points for trying something new, and figuring out a clever way to intentionally work some color into their design. _

I tried commenting on this but they deleted my post.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> According to WatchTime's guide, it's "zhey ZHER leh KOOLT." There is no "trey" or "tra."


That's about how I was told, but I think there is a very soft enunciation of that last syllable. And, for all I know, the guy who told me that's how it's pronounced got it from WatchTime, or from the same source they did.

I mean...surely someone in the industry stopped by the JLC booth in Basel, at some point, and heard someone from the brand pronounce it. I'd assume someone working for JLC would know how it's supposed to sound.

If only one of them would stop by and tell us...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> Interview with Lionel Favre, Product Design Director at Jaeger LeCoultre.
> The interviewer at first mentions two pronunciations but then Favre uses the name at about 50 seconds into the talk:
> 
> 
> ...


Gods, do I hate French as a language. I don't care what anyone says, Italian is just as romantic, and easier to understand.

So...I gave up trying to figure out how Lionel pronounced it, but the CEO Catherine Renier was pretty clear. To my ear, it sounded like she said "zhay-zhair le-kool-tre".

I say we go with that, and stop worrying about it.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

"zhay-zhair le-kool-tre". So, 'ZZ Cool 3'. Sounds like a pretty decent 2000's rap artist name.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Odin only speaks pig latin and never misses a drive in the toy


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> Worn and Wound ignores NTH and now gives credit for the depth gauge rehaut to Audric:
> 
> _The rainbow of colors in the rehaut actually point to the key differentiating feature of the SeaBorne: they are meant to act as a depth gauge. Water impacts our ability to detect wavelengths of light. Red is absorbed first, followed by orange and yellow. The theory here is that by looking at the SeaBorne's dial at depth, you get a rough sense of how deep you've gone based on what colors are visible to you on the dial. This feels like more of a romantic notion than a serious way to keep track of your depth during what is, after all, a somewhat dangerous activity (in other words, don't rely on the SeaBorne as a substitute for a dive computer), but Audric gets points for trying something new, and figuring out a clever way to intentionally work some color into their design. _
> 
> I tried commenting on this but they deleted my post.


Ugh...

Look, I have confirmed through multiple sources that for some reason I've been put on W&W's permanent naughty list. There was never any sort of "confrontation" between me and anyone there, nothing at all like that, so all I can do is guess the reason.

The timing of when I noticed the change suggests that it was because of a mild confrontation I had with the founder of RedBar, Adam Craniotes. I'd sent him a couple of watches for review, which he was supposed to return, and promised he would, but never did, nor did he deliver the coverage he was supposed to (just a single, fairly perfunctory post about one of them), which was the reason I'd sent them in the first place.

After almost a year of him dragging his feet and telling me he would deliver, he stopped responding, which is when I got a bit more pointed in my communications about it. My hunch was and is that they're all part of that NYC-based crowd of online taste-makers, and Adam got me blackballed. I've heard from people who've met him (including some who know him well) that he's a bit of a d-bag, and the stories I've heard pretty much confirm it.

Whatever the reason, it is what it is. It's an unfortunate truth that blogs are run by people, with their own agendas and biases. Unlike the automotive press, where there would seem to be greater pressure to cover all manufacturers, and less reason for press coverage to be selective, the watch industry is much more fragmented, allowing blogs to play favorites.

On the one hand, yes, it sometimes grinds my gears to see the praise that gets repeatedly heaped on some brands, while others, including mine, are largely ignored. But, on the other, I was never willing to let the success of my business hinge on whether or not bloggers liked me or my product. I always felt that it was my job to get the product and brand in front of the target customer, and that blog coverage was a nice-to-have, not a must-have.

As for Audric...I sort of know one of the guys behind the brand from Facebook. When I saw the design, I mentioned it to him, and we discussed it privately.

I pointed out that it wasn't just a matter of locating the depth gauge on the dial/rehaut (whereas what few other brands had used it only put it on the bezel prior to the DevilRay), it was that they copied the DR's depth gauge so precisely - the exact same colors, broken down exactly the same way, along the same markers, in exactly the same order, going counter-clockwise, etc.

There was never any functional reason behind why we did the depth gauge the way we did. It was purely aesthetic, straight from Aaron's imagination. So there's no logical reason to explain how or why someone else would do it in exactly the same way, unless they lifted it right from the DR.

He said it was something their factory added. I said that was unfortunate, but, they might consider modifying it in some way, given that even if it was their factory's idea to add it, their factory clearly got it from us. I added that taken together with the colorways (3 of which are the same or very similar to the DR's), case shape and dimensions, WR ratings, and 5-link bracelet, the design seemed to have a lot in common with the DR. Someone was bound to notice it eventually, and call them out on it.

He wouldn't have it. Instead, he pointed to the existence of other color-based depth gauges, along with some other semi- or non-sensical things (I don't think English is his first language), and said they'd keep it exactly as it is.

All I could do was wish him luck on the project, which I did, and I guess we'll see how they do with it.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

SteamJ said:


> Worn and Wound ignores NTH and now gives credit for the depth gauge rehaut to Audric:
> 
> _The rainbow of colors in the rehaut actually point to the key differentiating feature of the SeaBorne: they are meant to act as a depth gauge. Water impacts our ability to detect wavelengths of light. Red is absorbed first, followed by orange and yellow. The theory here is that by looking at the SeaBorne's dial at depth, you get a rough sense of how deep you've gone based on what colors are visible to you on the dial. This feels like more of a romantic notion than a serious way to keep track of your depth during what is, after all, a somewhat dangerous activity (in other words, don't rely on the SeaBorne as a substitute for a dive computer), but Audric gets points for trying something new, and figuring out a clever way to intentionally work some color into their design. _
> 
> I tried commenting on this but they deleted my post.


I'm actually happy that I've never seen NTH on any of those W&W/Hodinkee or other sites. I know then that the NTH (as well as L&H) brand's success is directly related to the quality of their watches instead of paying for a promotional write-up in a completely bias watch website's article. Doc also makes sure of that by not kissing asses on this (or any other) forum as well. Search for NTH on either website and you'll see that it only pops up in the word "e*NTH*usiast" which is overused by the uninspired writers from both sites.

I try to avoid all of the watches they suggest anyway. Why do I want a watch that a soy boy who lives the privileged life in NYC/LA/etc and has never done a hard day's work in his life wears? "Oh pa-pa! I have the grandest of ideas! I will start a website about watches where the manufacturers will pay me either directly or in watches I can later sell to promote their ****e to the masses. I can use those exceedingly expensive cameras you bought me for my 3rd birthday and photograph them on mother's vintage cashmere and fur coats!" "That's a splendid idea son! You've really worked your arse thinking about that little con, haven't you? Reminds me of the first time I made my own money off of my first scam and got away from suckling at the trust fund teat. I believe I was in my early 30's as well! Well now! This deserves a Bentley! Let's all fly to England and purchase one for each of us! On great, great, great grandpa's dollar of course! ;-) " *Upper class laughter ensues*


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## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

Sorry I'm so late to so many discussions. Stuff happens, I guess.


docvail said:


> Speaking of supply and demand, this is interesting (at least to me, and probably some others here)...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-seiko-sarb001-sarb003-sarb005-5171293.html
> ...
> ...


Sorry to revive the Seiko discussion. Just wanted to add a couple of comments.

(1) The 005 is a unicorn for me, too. Some day, I'll buy one. But I'm not going to pay more than $1k for it. Probably not more than $800. Especially as time goes on and the necessity of a service will add even more to the cost. Demand will go down, fewer people will look for them. Maybe it'll take a decade or two, but if I'm still into watches, it'll happen eventually.
Why do I like it? As Doc said, good design, at least for me. There's value in good design. (And, of course, value in supply and demand and irrational "unobtanium" desire.)
(2) This guy has been trying to sell these watches for a while now. I think I started tracking his WUS posting a couple of months ago. I thought maybe he'd get the hint a lower prices, but clearly not.



docvail said:


> FWIW, just so people don't think I'm too stubborn, and never consider anything, I shot my IP attorney an email, about the glidelock clasps.
> 
> Got his response today.
> 
> So...anyone want to give me $10k for this, or, can we let the glidelock thing go?


That's a bummer, man. Maybe give it a few years to let a few more brands blaze that trail. Let someone else be the guinea pig on what features of a glidelock (a) other companies will try to protect, and (b) courts will protect. Because my Nacken Renegade, on BOP, is my favorite watch. But damn, the adjustable clasp on the CW is comfy. I've been wearing my CW 65 GMT for the past week or so, and really the clasp is the main thing that keeps it in my collection.

I'll keep holding on hope. Someday. 



mgp123 said:


> I saw his post on Reddit the other day, and I couldn't believe it. I got downvoted just for putting a shocked face emoji under the fact that he said he sold his salmon dial SARB037 for $1850 (which is crazy IMO).
> 
> I find the SARB001, SARB003, SARB005 models ugly anyway. ...
> 
> I do have an Orthos 300 with date that is pretty rare! I'll be entertaining offers over $2k only! (Just kidding mods! I'm not making a sales post here; it was just a joke. I don't even want to sell it )


I mean, maybe your views about how ugly the SARBs are might be influencing your view about their value.  And rarity only jacks up the price if there's low supply AND low demand. No offense to the Orthos 300 there, but I think there are a lot more folks out there who see the SARB001 or SARB005 as unicorns than the Orthos. But one never knows. 

So I don't have a ton to share. Nacken from our long hike three weekends ago. Social distancing means really good air quality here, which means great visibility. (Yes, I was actually timing something with the bezel, so no complaints about it not being at 12...)


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## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> The last time someone who seemed to know more than I did told me how to pronounce it, that's how they said it was pronounced, more or less, with both the J and the G soft, like "zh", though with the first syllable more "zhah", than "zhay". But he didn't claim to speak French, so take that with a grain of salt.


Wait a minute...was it this guy?


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> The last time someone who seemed to know more than I did told me how to pronounce it, that's how they said it was pronounced, more or less, with both the J and the G soft, like "zh", though with the first syllable more "zhah", than "zhay". But he didn't claim to speak French, so take that with a grain of salt.
> 
> The guy in the recording I found said the G hard, which would seem to comport with how some other French words are pronounced. But, again, as you say, it's a proper name, with German roots, but converted to French, and I have no idea if the G would be pronounced differently due to where it is within the word, or the letters on either side, the way many letters in English take on different sounds.
> 
> ...


Doc, you have mentioned 2 pronunciation habits that grate when I hear them, which is often. 1) Often should be pronounced like off-en, not with a hard T. My theory is that for many folks the hard T SEEMS more "proper" and so it propagates. 2) Forward pronounced fo-ward is definitely a thing, and is growing in popularity. Twenty years ago I rarely heard this, now it is every week. I think the millennials moved this fo-ward. Why? And don't get me started with the dropping of t's in many words. Since when did someone decide something important should be pronounced impor-ant? As my English friend would say, that's just stupid, in'it? Rant over.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Perdendosi said:


> I mean, maybe your views about how ugly the SARBs are might be influencing your view about their value.  And rarity only jacks up the price if there's low supply AND low demand. No offense to the Orthos 300 there, but I think there are a lot more folks out there who see the SARB001 or SARB005 as unicorns than the Orthos. But one never knows.


I never said the SARBs were ugly, although I do think the ones with faceted crystals don't look as good as the SARB033. I said before I didn't like the 6R15 movement. That was the main reason I got rid of all of my watches with that movement. Not because any I owned were ugly. And I think you mean the price jacks up due to rarity if there is a low supply and *high* demand.

But I'd think there would be more of a demand for a Seamaster homage design than a watch that pays tribute to 70's style watches with funky designs like faceted crystals and psychedelic-y colorways seeing how much more the vintage versions of each go for. Also looking at the amount of models being made for each style. You can see how many people were copying the vintage Seamaster design back when it first came out, later while still in the past, and even to this day; compare it to how much many of the companies have copied that particular "pale green everything in the bathroom with wood accents" look from the 70s. Not too many, and the ones that do it don't have very many watches that are big sellers.

I think their "rarity" and the fact that the SARB001 (and similar) are from the popular Seiko SARB line is making these get their big numbers. Not the fact that they're rare and a lot of people think they look good. I doubt as many people are attracted to that design compared to the SARB033 and 035. Actually, I know there aren't since Seiko would have made more if they thought they would be able to sell them. It's not like these were limited editions. For all we know, there could be a warehouse full of these models that just didn't sell sitting around somewhere forgotten. We don't know they made less, we just have seen less in the market due to them not being popular as the SARB033 during their production. I'm not saying that is the case, but I'm saying it could be a possibility. More likely Seiko just produced less because they were selling less, but that would be an expensive variation to develop to produce so few. But who knows?

Nice Renegade btw! Mine might have become by favorite NTH now. It's so hard to choose!


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> According to WatchTime's guide, it's "zhey ZHER leh KOOLT." There is no "trey" or "tra."


GAF! I'll never wear one any way, nor will anyone I ever see.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> Maybe give it a few years to let a few more brands blaze that trail. Let someone else be the guinea pig on what features of a glidelock (a) other companies will try to protect, and (b) courts will protect. Because my Nacken Renegade, on BOP, is my favorite watch. But damn, the adjustable clasp on the CW is comfy. I've been wearing my CW 65 GMT for the past week or so, and really the clasp is the main thing that keeps it in my collection.


I have been and still remain content to let some other brand test those waters for me.

I'm not saying NTH was the first micro to use the STP1-11 movement, but it was one of the first, and I was definitely the only brand owner I knew keeping records of defects and reporting them back to other brand owners. I was "the first through the door" on that operation, and I took it in the teeth. A lot of other guys were able to dodge a bullet because it was lodged in me.

So...yeah, I'll let someone else go first on the glidelock clasp. I'll be sitting in the van if anyone needs me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Doc, you have mentioned 2 pronunciation habits that grate when I hear them, which is often. 1) Often should be pronounced like off-en, not with a hard T. My theory is that for many folks the hard T SEEMS more "proper" and so it propagates. 2) Forward pronounced fo-ward is definitely a thing, and is growing in popularity. Twenty years ago I rarely heard this, now it is every week. I think the millennials moved this fo-ward. Why? And don't get me started with the dropping of t's in many words. Since when did someone decide something important should be pronounced impor-ant? As my English friend would say, that's just stupid, in'it? Rant over.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Let me axe you a question. Can you be more pacific?


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Let me axe you a question. Can you be more pacific?


From a Baltimore guy to a Philly guy, Don't be ignorant, hon. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

The Santa Cruz is the perfect summer watch, ain't it y'all?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

At least once or twice, I've been asked about making a VantaBlack dial.

For those who have no idea what vantablack is - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vantablack.

It's the "Smell the Glove" of blacks. None more black.

For those who don't get that reference:






Anyhoo...I got a random email from some supplier saying they could do a vantablack dial. Just like with the glidelock clasp, I'd been figuring I'd let some other brand go first, and try to figure out if such a thing is possible. So, I forwarded the email I got to my supplier, to see what they had to say.

The gist of their reply was that they've been experimenting to figure out how to apply the color to the dial to achieve the best result. They couldn't get it to work with the sprayers, so they're trying to figure something else out - maybe brushing it on. They pointed out that the pic I received (see below) shows a lot of roughness, so they suspect it was applied with a brush.

The problem then would be how to get a layer of anything applied on top of that, and make it look right. You need a fairly uniform surface for silk-screening dial text and minute tracks.









Now, understand, I am *NOT* in any way an expert on nano-tube technology (the "vanta" comes from "vertically aligned nano-tube arrays"), but while I understand that they're extremely tiny little things, I wonder if either A) they're still not as thin as a layer of ink / paint applied to a dial, or B) it's not their thickness / height (when vertically aligned) that's the issue, but rather their texture, or something about how they bind together to create a rough surface with this sort of application.

Maybe the best application involves some sort of fancy process, sort of like PVD or electroplating, where ionization or an electrical current is involved, rather than a basic Mr. Miyagi style "paint fence, up-down, no side-side" sort of approach. That's all way outside my wheelhouse, and part of the reason I figured I'd let some other brand be the trail-blazer.

I believe there's still interest enough for some folks over there to keep working on it, so I wouldn't rule out a vantablack dial from some brand, at some point in the future, but I wouldn't expect to see one appear in the next few months.

---

Just in case you had the impression that I always ignore everyone's suggestions or requests.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I've heard people on the news pronounce words incorrectly. It's jarring when it happens. I think we all do it. I somehow got into the habit of pronouncing "forward" as "fo-ward", without that first "r". My wife and kids are always calling me out on it. I'm sure I sound like an imbecile.


Is your wife a native Pennsylvanian? I say "fo-ward" too, and I wonder if that's a PA thing. I think saying it as "fore-ward" sounds weird - too much like "foreword" like the beginning of a book prior to the main content.

By far the worst I've heard is a host of a show I watch will say "damning" as "dam-ning." It's excruciating.


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

ChadUGWC said:


> Näcken blue on a jubilee. I think it looks fantastic.
> 
> Also love hearing these military stories Doc.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What jubilee?!? I know chris hates them, but I love them, and the fitment looks good on that one. Hollow end links I am guessing? Don't really care, but if a SEL option is out there, I am all ears!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> At least once or twice, I've been asked about making a VantaBlack dial.


Now my brain is trying to imagine what the lume would look like on a dial that absorbs up to 99.96% of all visible light.....

Normal? Drastically dimmer? Anyone?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Re: Vantablack dial, it most definitely can be done because H. Moser has done several. Panerai's insane Lab-ID also has a vantablack dial. According to them, what you _can't_ do is print anything on it. Don't know if applied logos and markers might work, though. On the Panerai, the makers are their usual sandwich from underneath, and the "Luminor Panerai" and "LAB-ID" are printed directly on the crystal instead. I think it's overrated on a watch, because there has to be a crystal in front of it, and that crystal is going to reflect light back, even with a ton of AR coating on it. That shot of the Moser may look incredible, but that's not what it's going to look like on your wrist under typical lights.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Personally, I think something like Chris Ward's sapphire dial is much more interesting than a vantablack one, which just looks a bit darker than a typical black dial (IMO). The issue with the Trident is that underneath is a bone-stock Sellita SW-200, not exactly the prettiest belle of the ball. I think they should've gone with their own SH21 instead, that would've been far more interesting.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Is your wife a native Pennsylvanian? I say "fo-ward" too, and I wonder if that's a PA thing. I think saying it as "fore-ward" sounds weird - too much like "foreword" like the beginning of a book prior to the main content.
> 
> By far the worst I've heard is a host of a show I watch will say "damning" as "dam-ning." It's excruciating.


I grew up in the Philly suburbs. My Dad moved to Florida when I was around 12-ish. I went to visit, and the kids there made fun of my Philly accent when I asked for a glass of "wooder" (water). I remember making a conscious effort to lose the accent from then on.

I think I was mostly rid of it until I moved back here in 2000. It's come back a bit the last 20 years, but not entirely - I recently got called out for referring to a long-roll sandwich as a "sub", rather than a "hoagie". Sometimes it hurts my ears when I hear someone who has it bad.

The wife's from PA, but not from here. She grew up in the mid-state, where the accent is a bit different. Don't even get me started on some of the crazy made-up words they use. I think some came from the Amish.

And I agree, pronouncing forward the correct way feels weird, for whatever reason, like I'm drunk and slurring my words - fur-werd. I can only say it correctly when I'm thinking about it.

I heard someone on the news pronounce opaque as "oh-pack", and I nearly fell off the couch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Now my brain is trying to imagine what the lume would look like on a dial that absorbs up to 99.96% of all visible light.....
> 
> Normal? Drastically dimmer? Anyone?


Sounds like a question for philosoraptor...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: Vantablack dial, it most definitely can be done because H. Moser has done several. Panerai's insane Lab-ID also has a vantablack dial. According to them, what you _can't_ do is print anything on it. Don't know if applied logos and markers might work, though. On the Panerai, the makers are their usual sandwich from underneath, and the "Luminor Panerai" and "LAB-ID" are printed directly on the crystal instead. I think it's overrated on a watch, because there has to be a crystal in front of it, and that crystal is going to reflect light back, even with a ton of AR coating on it. That shot of the Moser may look incredible, but that's not what it's going to look like on your wrist under typical lights.
> 
> View attachment 15091763


Not an argument, only a point of clarification...

Yes, it's POSSIBLE to make a vantablack dial. We already knew that. I suppose I should have been more clear, by saying that it doesn't yet appear possible to achieve a surface texture which is conducive to printing anything on top of it, such as dial text, a logo, or a minute track.

Note the Moser has no such printing. Neither does the Panerai. As you noted, it's a sandwich dial, with cutouts showing the lume under the dial, and printing etched onto the crystal.

I also somewhat assumed that whatever light-absorbing / non-reflective properties vantablack has would be mitigated by the presence of a crystal. I think I said as much in one or more of my responses when the topic was raised previously. If not, then I'll still stick to my story, and say I thought it, even if I didn't say it.

That said, I don't think it's necessarily pointless. All dials, even black ones, reflect light. I've been disappointed with the somewhat meh appearance of some black dials, usually for not really looking inky, jet black. Maybe a vantablack dial would be "none more black", like the "Smell the Glove" album cover.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> The problem then would be how to get a layer of anything applied on top of that, and make it look right. You need a fairly uniform surface for silk-screening dial text and minute tracks.


I am in the "black dial is black dial" camp but why even bother printing that dial.
Look at the Sinn 809. Might be an idea, maybe hard to do with a domed crystal.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

A week on the wrist



















Got a new strap for it but lazy to swap out from bracelet.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I am in the "black dial is black dial" camp but why even bother printing that dial.
> Look at the Sinn 809. Might be an idea, maybe hard to do with a domed crystal.


The 809 is very cool.

I'm 86.8% sure that you can't do that with a double-domed (both inner and outer surfaces are domed) crystal. And I was told that putting the markers on the crystal like that tends to have a high reject rate, FWIW.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> I am in the "black dial is black dial" camp but why even bother printing that dial.
> Look at the Sinn 809. Might be an idea, maybe hard to do with a domed crystal.


That's how I feel about it. I also like when dark gloss dials reflect, I think it's a cool visual effect. What I generally don't like are matte black dials that just turn to slate gray under light.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Vantablack is so yesterday...

https://www.culturehustleusa.com/products/black-3-0-the-worlds-blackest-black-acrylic-paint-150ml

I get the feeling that this stuff is fragile and unforgiving to work with. A bit too much pressure or slip with a tool, kiss the dial goodbye. Maybe issues with glue adhesion?

Funny: the Audric crew us having a FB meltdown about a Chinese manufacturer ripping off their design...


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

I like the vantablack look, but don't really like that sample that you've got of one, Doc. It doesn't look smooth at all like vantablack should look. Even with the reflection off of the crystal, that Panerai looks really cool to me. The etched marking in the crystal make it even more of a trip (in a good way) too.

Side note: now that I've been more active on this forum in the last couple of weeks after being kicked off of another forum I used (overly sensitive mods on reddit; who would have thought the website that pretty much bans any pro-gun comments would be for censorship and authoritative measures?!? ;-) ) I am now being reprimanded for "speed posting" on this one. They took down my for sale posts because they said I was "speed posting". I get that a mod misinterpreted my joke about "making it to 100 posts so I could finally post some sales" before when I had to respond to everyone who wanted to call me a troll about whatever earlier in this thread, but isn't "speed posting" a danger when it's someone trying to scam on their sales? I have good transactions on this forum already, good feedback on other forums for sales, and am not trying to scam. So what would it matter if I'm posting a lot recently? I'm an old account that is now getting used more because I'm not using a different forum. I'm also "speed liking" comments and "speed reading" more posts and threads on this forum. So...what's the big deal? Who can I talk to to figure out what I need to do to clear this up. I'm sort of fed up with this stuff. I just want to be able to post my watches for sale somewhere else besides eBay, and I figure the forums that I'm using are a good place since they have areas for that. I think this is pretty ridiculous now that since I'm being more active overall on a forum that I'm being accused of speed posting. I'm not making bs posts or comments like one word comments on a bunch of different posts. I'm and older account that's being used more lately and posting responses to other comments (maybe a stupid joke here and there related to the topic being discussed, but so what). If anyone can lend me a hand here on who I need to talk to so I can get this cleared up, I'd appreciate it. I just want to be able to use one of these forums, but I feel like I can't get away from the politics with all of these places. IS THERE NOWHERE FREE ANYMORE?!? The internet used to be the final frontier. Now it even has government all over. Side note #2: FREE ROSS ULBRICHT!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Vantablack is so yesterday...
> 
> https://www.culturehustleusa.com/products/black-3-0-the-worlds-blackest-black-acrylic-paint-150ml
> 
> ...


I may be wrong, but I think that paint *IS* vantablack.

I just saw the kerfuffle going on with Audric. I didn't catch it from the beginning, but someone commented with something suggesting there were comments being deleted. Wonder what that's all about.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> I like the vantablack look, but don't really like that sample that you've got of one, Doc. It doesn't look smooth at all like vantablack should look. Even with the reflection off of the crystal, that Panerai looks really cool to me. The etched marking in the crystal make it even more of a trip (in a good way) too.
> 
> Side note: now that I've been more active on this forum in the last couple of weeks after being kicked off of another forum I used (overly sensitive mods on reddit; who would have thought the website that pretty much bans any pro-gun comments would be for censorship and authoritative measures?!? ;-) ) I am now being reprimanded for "speed posting" on this one. They took down my for sale posts because they said I was "speed posting". I get that a mod misinterpreted my joke about "making it to 100 posts so I could finally post some sales" before when I had to respond to everyone who wanted to call me a troll about whatever earlier in this thread, but isn't "speed posting" a danger when it's someone trying to scam on their sales? I have good transactions on this forum already, good feedback on other forums for sales, and am not trying to scam. So what would it matter if I'm posting a lot recently? I'm an old account that is now getting used more because I'm not using a different forum. I'm also "speed liking" comments and "speed reading" more posts and threads on this forum. So...what's the big deal? Who can I talk to to figure out what I need to do to clear this up. I'm sort of fed up with this stuff. I just want to be able to post my watches for sale somewhere else besides eBay, and I figure the forums that I'm using are a good place since they have areas for that. I think this is pretty ridiculous now that since I'm being more active overall on a forum that I'm being accused of speed posting. I'm not making bs posts or comments like one word comments on a bunch of different posts. I'm and older account that's being used more lately and posting responses to other comments (maybe a stupid joke here and there related to the topic being discussed, but so what). If anyone can lend me a hand here on who I need to talk to so I can get this cleared up, I'd appreciate it. I just want to be able to use one of these forums, but I feel like I can't get away from the politics with all of these places. IS THERE NOWHERE FREE ANYMORE?!? The internet used to be the final frontier. Now it even has government all over. Side note #2: FREE ROSS ULBRICHT!


Not trying to be a jerk, but as someone known for writing walls of text, let me give you one indispensable yet free piece of advice - use the "enter" key more.

Anything more than 3-4 lines of text without a line-break, the perception of crazy starts to go up quickly, and the likelihood of people reading, much less responding, drops off precipitously. Every 2-3 sentences, hit that key, twice.

As for the moderation - talk to a moderator. But, I can save you some time.

The mods' decisions are usually final, and arguing isn't going to get you anywhere. Yes, speed-posting is frowned upon. It's not that it's only a problem if someone is a scammer. The 100-post rule was created to stop scammers. Trying to circumvent the rule by speed-posting is only going to raise hackles.

Are you saying the rule shouldn't apply to you, because you're not a scammer? How are they to know? What's the point of having the rule if they're not going to enforce it?

It's like the speed limit. You speed, you risk getting pulled over. "But I was in a rush to get somewhere, not fleeing a bank robbery" isn't a good excuse to use with the cops.


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## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> IS THERE NOWHERE FREE ANYMORE?!? The internet used to be the final frontier. Now it even has government all over. Side note #2: FREE ROSS ULBRICHT!


You were doing fairly well, except for the wall of text, until here where you tried to show you're a rebel. I'm guessing that's why you're not making mod friends on any forums.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Just watched a video review of some sunglasses. Dude repeatedly pronounced "original" as "origino". As in the opposite of "origi-yes". No other accent quirks. Odd.

He also used the term "on face". I've finally gotten used to hearing "on wrist". (Am I the only one who thinks "on the wrist" or "on my wrist" sounds more natural?) Still was not prepared to hear "on face".

I wonder what other wearable things have their own genre of videos using other "on [bodypart]" expressions.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Just watched a video review of some sunglasses. Dude repeatedly pronounced "original" as "origino". As in the opposite of "origi-yes". No other accent quirks. Odd.
> 
> He also used the term "on face". I've finally gotten used to hearing "on wrist". (Am I the only one who thinks "on the wrist" or "on my wrist" sounds more natural?) Still was not prepared to hear "on face".
> 
> ...


Don't even get me started...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Meh. Words are made up anyway.

On the vantablack dial stuff - yeeah having a sapphire crystal on top will cause reflections/problems.

Realistically, one would want to have a very flat sapphire with good AR coating on both sides (blasphemy) - this is how Sinn & Damasko achieve a "crystal free" look in most angles/lights. So that approach could work to get a black black. Not having light bouncing off of the dial (unlike in all glossy black dials) would be a nice bonus for legibility as well as looking cool.

Alternately (alternatively?), a plexiglass crystal tends to have a lot less reflection-bouncing compared to sapphire glass. Going by a number of other threads and watches, it seems like people are slowly becoming more open to plexiglass crystals on watches again (though of course there are enough detractors in the majority still). A Plexi crystal over a vantablack dial might be the darkest possible option.

Here's a thought. Sapphire crystal tends to internally reflect when crossing the glass/air barrier. 
What about sapphire bezel inserts, painted on the bottom with this vantablack? Removing the air gap so to speak. That ought to eliminate one of the two reflection barriers from being a factor, right?

As for printing/painting..

These dials had a lumpy texture, still seemed to pose no issues with print...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Realistically, one would want to have a very flat sapphire with good AR coating on both sides (blasphemy) - this is how Sinn & Damasko achieve a "crystal free" look in most angles/lights. So that approach could work to get a black black. Not having light bouncing off of the dial (unlike in all glossy black dials) would be a nice bonus for legibility as well as looking cool.


I'm curious what Seiko did with the sapphire crystals on the SDGC models I have. They're flat, but I don't *think* they are AR coated on the outside. I'm not aware of Seiko doing that. They almost completely disappear though to the point that under certain lighting conditions, it really does look like you could just reach right in and touch the hands. I've not owned any other watches that had anywhere close to the "disappearing glass" effect that they do.

Count me out on plexiglass. I already have enough anxiety about scratching the bezels and cases of my watches. I like having at least the bit of peace of mind that it's usually the glass that takes the hit when I absentmindedly knock my watch into something, and it's generally unscathed as a result.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> As for printing/painting..
> 
> These dials had a lumpy texture, still seemed to pose no issues with print...


The lumpy texture was pressed into the dial, not caused by the layer on top of it. And the printed areas were raised.

Not the same thing.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 15092971


I know you know but You take amazing pics, thank you for sharing.
I just zoomed in on it on my phone until nth logo covered entire screen and it was still high quality.

That dial is perfection.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 15092971


Pretty sure this is my favorite of all NTH's....


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I may be wrong, but I think that paint *IS* vantablack.
> 
> I just saw the kerfuffle going on with Audric. I didn't catch it from the beginning, but someone commented with something suggesting there were comments being deleted. Wonder what that's all about.


Nope -- this is a company specifically doing a blacker black that is not Vantablack (tm). One of the reasons many have a hair across their ass regarding VB is because the artist Anish Kapoor bought exclusive rights to use it, so no one else could. This outfit created their own ultra-black to so that others could try it out:



> *Note: By adding this product to your cart you confirm that you are not Anish Kapoor, you are in no way affiliated to Anish Kapoor, you are not purchasing this item on behalf of Anish Kapoor or an associate of Anish Kapoor. To the best of your knowledge, information and belief this material will not make it's way into the hands of Anish Kapoor.


I think best use of this would be a plain black dial with a set of white or metal hands, and a case with a 12hr bezel, either fixed or rotating.

Someone posted, saying they had been approached by a Chinese manufacturer saying they could make a watch that looked like "this" [pic of an Audric watch with brand photoshopped off]. They were wondering, does this look like anything anyone knows. People said Audric and the owners got all bent out of shape... about someone copying their design. How newb do you have to be to have no experience with Chinese companies trying to sell manufacturing capacity by stealing others' photos...?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

A flat crystal will be less reflective. Or, rather, it will be just as reflective as a domed crystal, but at a much narrower angle range, when considering the light source. 

So when you look at any watch where "the crystal pretty much disappears!", not only are chances good that it has AR on the exterior, but also, it's probably a flat crystal. 

Smooth is the enemy of deeper blacks. With smooth, you get reflections. Which is why matte dials tend to look more saturated than gloss dials or dials with some kind of pattern.

I think the downside of the nano-blacks is that they are fragile. Imagine trying to work with a black, flocked/velvet surface which sheds like a dog. Try applying an index and you will get issues with either glue seepage or chipping around the spot where an applied index meets the black surface for a mechanical fit. Try printing on it, and same thing, artifacts in the black surrounding the index from pressure or a spreading, blotting effect, or other non-printing bits of the dial which might get smoothed and thus shiny-scuffed by the non-inked part of a transfer medium. Note -- all guesses on my end, except for experience with the scuffing issue from dealing with matte film lamination over black print material.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Nope -- this is a company specifically doing a blacker black that is not Vantablack (tm). One of the reasons many have a hair across their ass regarding VB is because the artist Anish Kapoor bought exclusive rights to use it, so no one else could. This outfit created their own ultra-black to so that others could try it out.


Interesting. Weird. But interesting nonetheless.

I thought it was vantablack because one of the images on the site is of a "death mask", which is one of the examples we usually see in discussion of vantablack, and pictured on the wiki. Surely that can't be just a coincidence. Seems intended for people to draw a connection in some way.



mconlonx said:


> Someone posted, saying they had been approached by a Chinese manufacturer saying they could make a watch that looked like "this" [pic of an Audric watch with brand photoshopped off. They were wondering, does this look like anything anyone knows. People said Audric and the owners got all bent out of shape... about someone copying their design. How newb do you have to be to have no experience with Chinese companies trying to sell manufacturing capacity by stealing others' photos...?


Yeah, I saw most or all of that. I was just wondering about the one guy's comment, which seemed to suggest there were other comments which had been deleted, and wondering what those comments may have been about, or why they were deleted.

The brand owner I spoke with privately is also a moderator of that group, despite the potential conflict of interest. I was curious to know what was being said, specifically, if it was in some way critical of the design or the brand. If every brand owner had the power to delete all critical comments, it would be a very different internet.

As for the factory doing what so many do...it happens a lot. It's happened to me, probably a lot more than I even realize. The first 2-3 times, I went to the effort of reporting the listings to AliBaba, and contacting them directly, demanding that they take my pics down. The problem is, it's like dealing with Hydra - remove one head, two more pop up to replace it.

What I find tragic, or comic, depending on the day, is how often someone will comment on FB or the forums, claiming that they've found this or that microbrand's supplier, and look at what insane markups they're all working off of. They never seem to understand, or maybe they don't want to believe, that those aren't our vendors, and those aren't our costs. The prices you see next to any product on AliBaba are less reliable than Invicta's MSRP's. They're pure click-bait.

*TRUE STORY* - One of the more recent instances, from last year, the factory in question was actually the very first factory I engaged to make my first set of prototypes, for a design which preceded the Riccardo. After four months of delays, I fired them, got my deposit back, and hired the factory which produced most of the L&H models.

Since then, that first factory has developed a reputation for shadiness. I've seen them post pics of other brand's watches, so I wasn't entirely surprised to see them post mine. But, they took down my pics, and apologized in their reply to my sternly-worded email message.

Fast forward to March. I got another reply to that message from them, informing me that they are now making PPE and CV19 testing kits, and could supply me with these, in volume, at great prices.

I mean...there's chutzpah, there's cojones, and then there's Chinese-factory-level nerve. I was literally (figuratively) speechless.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Nacken, just arrived, this watch is absolutely exquisite, now to size that bracelet.............









Cheerz,

Alan


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## ChadUGWC (Oct 17, 2018)

docvail said:


> At least once or twice, I've been asked about making a VantaBlack dial.
> 
> For those who have no idea what vantablack is - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vantablack.
> 
> ...


I was literally talking to a friend about an affordable watch needing to be made with vanta black. If you make one I will 100% be a buyer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChadUGWC (Oct 17, 2018)

Dub Rubb said:


> What jubilee?!? I know chris hates them, but I love them, and the fitment looks good on that one. Hollow end links I am guessing? Don't really care, but if a SEL option is out there, I am all ears!
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


I know he is. That is actually totally ok to me. I thought it had a Tudor sub look to it with jubilee. It's a Hadley Roma. Pretty decent fit. Affordable. Hollow end links with solid link construction. Give it a go!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I know you know but You take amazing pics, thank you for sharing.
> I just zoomed in on it on my phone until nth logo covered entire screen and it was still high quality.


No kidding, when I look at his IG I feel like deactivating my profile, lol

All EDC carefully selected with matching colors. The Alox SAKs pop so nicely on the photos.

Got myself a forrest green Alox Pioneer recently to retire the 15 y.o. Huntsman.

________

My preference for black depends on the dial elements:

Polished hands + markers = shiny

Matt, utilitarian hands + markers = non reflective








View attachment sadgf.jpg


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

a few NTH for sale on Ebay BNIB from a British seller, are these part of the Page and Cooper liquidation?


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I know you know but You take amazing pics, thank you for sharing.
> I just zoomed in on it on my phone until nth logo covered entire screen and it was still high quality.
> 
> That dial is perfection.
> ...


I didn't take much notice of that photo because dials with round indices aren't my thing. But this post made me to go back for a closer inspection. Two things really got my attention. First, the recessed areas above and below the 12 o'clock pip filled with red, is such a great design feature. The second, the small dot within the 'O' in Amphion, and lacking a better way of expressing myself, is just so cool.


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

ChadUGWC said:


> I was literally talking to a friend about an affordable watch needing to be made with vanta black. If you make one I will 100% be a buyer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Scurfa makes a "blacked out" watch that looks AMAZING and I very well might be buying it soon:
https://www.scurfawatches.com/product/bell-diver-1-black-pvd-auto-new-for-2020/


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> I didn't take much notice of that photo because dials with round indices aren't my thing. But this post made me to go back for a closer inspection. Two things really got my attention. First, the recessed areas above and below the 12 o'clock pip filled with red, is such a great design feature. The second, the small dot within the 'O' in Amphion, and lacking a better way of expressing myself, is just so cool.


Agreed, that font is cool. Mostly straight laced, but with enough oddball letters that most names have at least one with some flourish or other. Without studying it too closely, I think Nazario Sauro wins for most jazzy letters in a single model name. While Santa Fe, Bahia lose with zero.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

watchman600 said:


> Scurfa makes a "blacked out" watch that looks AMAZING and I very well might be buying it soon:
> https://www.scurfawatches.com/product/bell-diver-1-black-pvd-auto-new-for-2020/


Alpina has the "Shadow Line". I got the Startimer Pilot for a song off a random daily deal on Joma.















It's not straight black. But I love it. Heres the diver, the Alpiner 4.


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

the all black Alpina 4 looks nice...but I think the Scurfa is more the type of DEEP black that was under discussion.
---
if I'm already posting again, I will just add that the Amphion is one AMAZING looking watch. That dial is something special.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Thanks to some very helpful photos that were posted here earlier, I was able to make a FAR more accurate mockup of what my SKX would look like with Transocean hands, and....now I think I'm leaning in favor of keeping the Zodiac SSW style hands in place as is. What do you folks think? Which do you like better?


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I prefer the one where I can figure out which hand is the hour hand, and which hand is the minute hand.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Thanks to some very helpful photos that were posted here earlier, I was able to make a FAR more accurate mockup of what my SKX would look like with Transocean hands, and....now I think I'm leaning in favor of keeping the Zodiac SSW style hands in place as is. What do you folks think? Which do you like better?
> 
> View attachment 15095415
> 
> View attachment 15095417


Transocean hands for me. Dapphine hands are too thin.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Not trying to be a jerk, but as someone known for writing walls of text, let me give you one indispensable yet free piece of advice - use the "enter" key more.
> 
> Anything more than 3-4 lines of text without a line-break, the perception of crazy starts to go up quickly, and the likelihood of people reading, much less responding, drops off precipitously. Every 2-3 sentences, hit that key, twice.
> 
> ...


What's the point of having the rule period is my question? It doesn't stop scammers although it might slow some down. It's a pointless rule. So I have to post 100 posts on this forum to sell. That doesn't prove my trustworthiness though. Me having done transactions with other users having already bought on this forum does. Not meeting a particular number of posts over an unspecified period of time. That's my point.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

On a random note, I'm switching back to the Blue Angels. They buzzed directly over my shop low enough to slightly feel it. 

I knew we were close enough to the flight path to see 'em, but I figured they'd be off in the distance slightly... was a pretty killer surprise to see 'em fly right overhead. 

I guess the Thunderbirds didnt feel like coming to Texas though. Typical lazy Air Force(kidding).


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> What's the point of having the rule period is my question? It doesn't stop scammers although it might slow some down. It's a pointless rule. So I have to post 100 posts on this forum to sell. That doesn't prove my trustworthiness though. Me having done transactions with other users having already bought on this forum does. Not meeting a particular number of posts over an unspecified period of time. That's my point.


100 posts provide a glimpse into someone's personality. You often hear 'buy the seller'. If someone presents themselves as a troll or a jerk, I for one am going to be less likely to purchase something from them. I appreciate having the ability to see that insight.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TgeekB said:


> You were doing fairly well, except for the wall of text, until here where you tried to show you're a rebel. I'm guessing that's why you're not making mod friends on any forums.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I'm not really here to make friends. I don't use online forums for that. I use watch forums to discuss watches and watch companies (not planes ;-) ) which I've tried to do.

When I stand up for the NTH community who wanted new bracelets (even though I was fine with them) and asked Doc why he couldn't make them, you all side with Doc even though you were the ones originally (and sometimes still) *****ing.

When I post my opinion on another (non NTH) watch company that was brought up and point out how the owner uses "limited" production runs to benefit him, I get called a troll even though what I'm saying is true. It does benefit Halios for the owner to do his business that way. It benefits mostly all business to do it. That's why I'm guessing Doc is switching back to more limited runs of watches instead of keeping a bunch of models in stock that you all said you wanted and asked for but never bought.

I'll have a bunch of watches for sale in the next few weeks on eBay and reddit. Check there if you want to pick up any NTH and other hard to find Seiko models I'll have for sale.

I'm kind of fed up with the online watch community's groupthink mentality. That's why certain watches can be invested in like stocks but take a tumble in value when a bad review is posted about them even though the watch hasn't changed at all. It's like the stock market where the actual numbers don't matter valuating a stock anymore; it's how people "feel" about a company based on what they read and hear that can decide a stock's price. Same reason why I got out of that market.

I don't come on here to 8==D~ ride well established users and suck up to them or mods who feel like having more posts or a bit more power on a website makes them superior. The 100 post rule is stupid and pointless. Posting a timestamp like reddit makes you do for sales makes more sense to avoid scams than meeting a certain number of posts over an unspecified period of time (better not be too quick with those posts; can't have you too involved in a community at once!). Ignoring the fact that my comments were sometimes pictures of my watches in certain responses if not still related to watches and only dwelling on the fact that I'm not over here saying (unrelated) stuff like "I LIKE JETS AND AIRPLANES TOO!" (which would get me pointless likes) and instead giving my unpopular opinion on watches and their company's owners is pretty stupid. I haven't tried to circumvent the idiotic 100 post rule by speed posting; I've just been more active lately and took the opportunity to post my watches for sale once I met the required amount of mandatory posts. That's all. Crucify me.

I haven't had good experiences with all of the watches I've bought on this and other watch forums and encountered many people who I feel are trying to pass off mechanical watches with issues as working fine. I myself haven't had any complaints as a seller though since I disclose all of the issues with any of the watches I post. But the watch community as a whole right now is not a great place to be IMO. Bunch of boys who think a certain watch will make them a man still. The type of "men" who have to ask permission to buy watches they want and their word holds no value. Not a trustworthy place and I think overvalued like a lot of other markets which will correct themselves soon.

I'll pass on participating in the Netscape-esque format of this forum even though it does still have some good information on it. I only need a Google search to find it; not be involved in it actively. I chose to be more active on it over other forums. Why shouldn't I be able to sell on the forum I actively use too? Still not sure why that's an issue, but I guess it is. I guess I'll take my posts elsewhere though. Don't worry. I won't be checking for responses and won't have to since this sub par forum with 1990s coding doesn't even alert you to replies to your comments! I'll only be on here to finish up transactions (purchases) I already had started. So say what you want to about me; I'm a "troll lulz" or whatever. It's all good.

I came here to talk about watches and post some watches for sale, but I guess I can't do either. Peace!


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## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

Oh good, another wall of text (that I won’t read). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Got me some micro and regular paracord to play with

View attachment sadfddd.jpg


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> I prefer the one where I can figure out which hand is the hour hand, and which hand is the minute hand.


On the early Zodiac reissues, it was almost impossible to tell which hand was which in the dark. Not great for what's supposed to be a diver. They're a bit better now.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Double your fun with double post gum.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

TgeekB said:


> Oh good, another wall of text (that I won't read).
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I read it and can happily confirm that you didn't miss anything........


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## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> I read it and can happily confirm that you didn't miss anything........


I owe you one.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Hornet99 said:


> I read it and can happily confirm that you didn't miss anything........


I read about half of it, and thought "What's the point?"

Now I see he has been sent to band camp.


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## skyleth (Oct 17, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Nope -- this is a company specifically doing a blacker black that is not Vantablack (tm). One of the reasons many have a hair across their ass regarding VB is because the artist Anish Kapoor bought exclusive rights to use it, so no one else could. This outfit created their own ultra-black to so that others could try it out:
> 
> I think best use of this would be a plain black dial with a set of white or metal hands, and a case with a 12hr bezel, either fixed or rotating.
> 
> Someone posted, saying they had been approached by a Chinese manufacturer saying they could make a watch that looked like "this" [pic of an Audric watch with brand photoshopped off]. They were wondering, does this look like anything anyone knows. People said Audric and the owners got all bent out of shape... about someone copying their design. How newb do you have to be to have no experience with Chinese companies trying to sell manufacturing capacity by stealing others' photos...?


Yup, 99% Invisible did a good episode about the material, Anish Kapoor, Black 3.0: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/their-dark-materials/

I've heard people say Black 3.0 actually comes off more as a dark grey than blackest of black. Crappy Surfer did something with the non-vantablack a while back: https://orionwatch.com/shoporion/orion-galaxy


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## skyleth (Oct 17, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: Vantablack dial, it most definitely can be done because H. Moser has done several. Panerai's insane Lab-ID also has a vantablack dial. According to them, what you _can't_ do is print anything on it. Don't know if applied logos and markers might work, though. On the Panerai, the makers are their usual sandwich from underneath, and the "Luminor Panerai" and "LAB-ID" are printed directly on the crystal instead. I think it's overrated on a watch, because there has to be a crystal in front of it, and that crystal is going to reflect light back, even with a ton of AR coating on it. That shot of the Moser may look incredible, but that's not what it's going to look like on your wrist under typical lights.
> 
> View attachment 15091763


I think what makes vantablack such a trippy illusion is when you "know" something should have a texture or other features that should not be flat (cars, concert stage, basket ball, crumpled up tinfoil, etc...) and the vantablack just obliterates all curves, details, depth, etc... and what you see doesn't match up with what you know. These dials with vantablack applied just look like they're flat black, which isn't that big of a shock to the brain. Maybe a reverse of what everyone else is doing Vantablack/Black 3.0 hands and applied indexes over a super textured non-flat dial?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

skyleth said:


> I think what makes vantablack such a trippy illusion is when you "know" something should have a texture or other features that should not be flat (cars, concert stage, basket ball, crumpled up tinfoil, etc...) and the vantablack just obliterates all curves, details, depth, etc... and what you see doesn't match up with what you know. These dials with vantablack applied just look like they're flat black, which isn't that big of a shock to the brain. Maybe a reverse of what everyone else is doing Vantablack/Black 3.0 hands and applied indexes over a super textured non-flat dial?


That's a good point. If I didn't know there was anything special about the Panerai, I would just assume it had a normal dial, at least looking at the video anyway. Maybe the effect is more noticeable in person? On something like the VB BMW, it's completely different because the light is hitting it directly, not through glass, and it doesn't come back, so you end up with what looks like an unfinished computer render of a car that somehow exists in reality.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Seikogi said:


> Got me some micro and regular paracord to play with


What ya got planned for that micro paracord...? I didn't even know such a material existed and how I'm all, like, "Hmm, could probably be woven into a perlon-style strap..."


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

skyleth said:


> Yup, 99% Invisible did a good episode about the material, Anish Kapoor, Black 3.0: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/their-dark-materials/
> 
> I've heard people say Black 3.0 actually comes off more as a dark grey than blackest of black. Crappy Surfer did something with the non-vantablack a while back: https://orionwatch.com/shoporion/orion-galaxy


Sweet -- thanks for this. I was aware of the Orion watch, clicked to late to pick it up, but thought it was a great idea and application.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Double post. Here's a watch. I hear there's only a couple of these left, over at WatchGauge... The only reason I didn't keep mine is because the Nomad came out, which I like better. Otherwise, this is a wicked sweet watch...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> What's the point of having the rule period is my question? It doesn't stop scammers although it might slow some down. It's a pointless rule. So I have to post 100 posts on this forum to sell. That doesn't prove my trustworthiness though. Me having done transactions with other users having already bought on this forum does. Not meeting a particular number of posts over an unspecified period of time. That's my point.


Someone who is just looking to scam buyers and sellers in the for-sale forums is more likely to simply move on, rather than post 100 times. That's why there's a rule against speed-posting.

When someone has 100 posts which actually contribute something to the forum, besides "nice watch!" or "I agree!", it creates a history which shows they didn't just join to scam people.

As a matter of fact - when they implemented the 100-post rule, and people discussed it, I'm pretty sure I saw moderators chiming in, to the effect that even if someone was NOT a scammer, the forums aren't supposed to just be a place where people come to buy and sell watches. You can do that on eBay. It's a DISCUSSION forum, first and foremost, which happens to have an area for CONTRIBUTING members to buy and sell with each other.

So, while the 100-post rule was initially and ostensibly to slow scammers down, I think it had the positive by-product of curtailing non-contributing members from exploiting the forum simply to do commission-free trades, instead of selling on eBay.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> What ya got planned for that micro paracord...? I didn't even know such a material existed and how I'm all, like, "Hmm, could probably be woven into a perlon-style strap..."


I was thinking about doing some lanyards for the keys, knives, etc.
Prior I always used the military paracord but its not particularly elegant looking.

The wife also got into handbag making so I thought she might find it useful. (Hopefully I'll get watch leather straps one day, fingers crossed haha  )


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I was thinking about doing some lanyards for the keys, knives, etc.
> Prior I always used the military paracord but its not particularly elegant looking.
> 
> The wife also got into handbag making so I thought she might find it useful. (Hopefully I'll get watch leather straps one day, fingers crossed haha  )


Probably a stupid question, but that's never slowed me down before...is it true paracord? It's been a long time since I held any, but I think I remember it had an elastic quality to it, yes? I've never seen it in any color other than pine green.

Back in the day, when I was doing silly things in the woods for my country, we all seemed to feel a high level of social pressure to use paracord to tie everything we carried with us to something else on us. My knife was tied to one of my belt loops, my field shovel was tied to my rucksack, my walking stick had a paracord loop to go around my wrist, etc.

It's almost like we all feared our fingers, ears, and eyes would stop working, all at once, leading to some scenario in which we dropped everything, didn't hear it, and couldn't see it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Seikogi said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking about doing some lanyards for the keys, knives, etc.
> ...


Theres tons of sellers on amazon and other places selling true milspec paracord in all sorts of colors. I've never looked if theirs actually milspec, but a huge seller is Paracord Planet.

Real paracord doesnt really have an elastic feel... you might be thinking of shock cord. Looks pretty much the same, but a little stiffer to the touch. Still shielded with the nylon shell material, but the strands on the inside are actual elastic strands. I use shock cord to make belt loops on my kydex knife sheaths so they sit closer to my body.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

NTH Odin on an aftermarket President bracelet.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

You make some very fine watches sir. Thank you for your service to the WIS community.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Probably a stupid question, but that's never slowed me down before...is it true paracord? It's been a long time since I held any, but I think I remember it had an elastic quality to it, yes? I've never seen it in any color other than pine green.
> 
> Back in the day, when I was doing silly things in the woods for my country, we all seemed to feel a high level of social pressure to use paracord to tie everything we carried with us to something else on us. My knife was tied to one of my belt loops, my field shovel was tied to my rucksack, my walking stick had a paracord loop to go around my wrist, etc.
> 
> It's almost like we all feared our fingers, ears, and eyes would stop working, all at once, leading to some scenario in which we dropped everything, didn't hear it, and couldn't see it.


As far as I understand true paracord is made from nylon so it must be elastic to some extent. (30% stretch for mil spec according to the wise internet)

The number of types, strings and colors exploded with the commercial success in the civilian market. Its hard to have an overview if one isn't digging deep. 
I think Type III 550 was/is? milspec but due to the overwhelming demand there is even "better" stuff out there now. I think they call it "survival cord" with additional strings.

I think it gained popularity much later in Europe and we all started putting it everywhere. I much enjoyed doing even the silly paracord bracelets and made a lot of them for me and friends.

Fortunately, I was never in a situation where I had to rely too much on the paracord but it sure is a practical thing to have.

I guess its one of those things where the line between it being useful/smart and looking overly "tacticool" is very clear


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

AFAIK, 'real' mil-spec 550 paracord has 7 inner strands (wound) made of a specific nylon filament (formulation and diameter) w/ an heavier filament braid jacket. The real stuff is UV resistant, abrasion resistant, jacket is flat finished, not shiney. 

Some years back I was into 'cord and bought some less common 650 spec (out jacket only, no inner strands), 450 'high angle' 'cord w/ braided inner strands, almost no stretch, some 350 (1/8") w/ 4 inner strands, and even some Kevlar 'cord. The 650 was good for making larger decorative lanyards. The 350 was good for making items w/ two sizes. The rest, not much good for wraps or bracelets, too stiff and too $$$$.


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Double post. Here's a watch. I hear there's only a couple of these left, over at WatchGauge... The only reason I didn't keep mine is because the Nomad came out, which I like better. Otherwise, this is a wicked sweet watch...
> 
> View attachment 15097723


MINE IS INCOMING!!!


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## DMCBanshee (Mar 31, 2013)

mplsabdullah said:


> You make some very fine watches sir. Thank you for your service to the WIS community.


What a beauty, especially on bead of rices!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> NTH Odin on an aftermarket President bracelet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bracelet details, please?


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> Double post. Here's a watch. I hear there's only a couple of these left, over at WatchGauge... The only reason I didn't keep mine is because the Nomad came out, which I like better. Otherwise, this is a wicked sweet watch...
> 
> View attachment 15097723


I've been looking for something with a steel bezel and this may fit the bill.......let the search begin!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RickHoliday said:


> I've been looking for something with a steel bezel and this may fit the bill.......let the search begin!


There are only a few pieces left available, and they're all at Watch Gauge - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work mounted on Erika's original









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

3WR said:


> Bracelet details, please?


It's just a cheap Aliexpress special with folded end links, probably from Carlywet. The fit is very nice and I really like that it tapers from 20-16mm.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Question for the crowd...what's the thinnest ~60 ATM WR watch around?


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## skyleth (Oct 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Question for the crowd...what's the thinnest ~60 ATM WR watch around?


The 38mm Christopher Ward C60 is listed at 12.7mm, pretty decent compared to a lot of 15mm out there: Ocean Crawler, Squale, etc...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

skyleth said:


> The 38mm Christopher Ward C60 is listed at 12.7mm, pretty decent compared to a lot of 15mm out there: Ocean Crawler, Squale, etc...


It's also 38mm, which is much smaller than those watches. The smaller the crystal opening, the more case height that can be shaved down. I actually think CW's 42mm at 13.4mm is more impressive than the 38. Similarly, Lum-tec's massive 48mm Abyss 600m is 14mm thick using the 9015, which ain't bad considering how big it is.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skyleth said:


> The 38mm Christopher Ward C60 is listed at 12.7mm, pretty decent compared to a lot of 15mm out there: Ocean Crawler, Squale, etc...


Thanks. That's a number I needed to know.



Davekaye90 said:


> It's also 38mm, which is much smaller than those watches. The smaller the crystal opening, the more case height that can be shaved down. I actually think CW's 42mm at 13.4mm is more impressive than the 38. Similarly, Lum-tec's massive 48mm Abyss 600m is 14mm thick using the 9015, which ain't bad considering how big it is.


Case / crystal diameter will impact the thickness dimension. The wider the case, generally, the wider the crystal. And, the wider the crystal, generally, the thicker it will need to be to achieve the WR spec.

Still, the 38mm CW being under 13mm is pretty impressive, given that the SW200 movement inside it isn't all that thin.

It appears that the crystal is fairly flat, which helps.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Speaking of Lum Tec... What do y'all think of this?







43mm by 12mm
350m WR
SW200-1 regulated to +/- 3spd
Anti-mag
Lumed ceramic 120 click bezel
30 layers of X1 grade C3 lume

Opinions? I'm thinking of ordering one.... But I'm debating with myself, so I figured I'd ask y'all. It's still got the 15% pre order discount so it's only $675 and some change.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Speaking of Lum Tec... What do y'all think of this?
> View attachment 15103953
> 
> 43mm by 12mm
> ...


My thoughts are:

1. Seems like a good deal.

2. Rusty's 3D illustrations are better than Lum-Tec's.

(Before anyone goes running to tell Chris Wiegand I said that, relax. I'm friends with him, and I know he'd find it funny.)


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Speaking of Lum Tec... What do y'all think of this?
> View attachment 15103953
> 
> 43mm by 12mm
> ...












Buy the Lum Tec.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A little sneak peak at the 2K1 (the watch formerly called the L/XL Sub)...















Dimensions are 41.75mm case diameter / 43.75mm bezel diameter, with 51mm lug-to-lug length, and 22mm lug width.

Water resistance = 610 meters, or 2001 feet (hence, "2K1")

Coming this fall. More details to follow soon...


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## 127.72 MHz (Apr 27, 2020)

docvail said:


> A little sneak peak at the 2K1 (the watch formerly called the L/XL Sub)...
> View attachment 15104081
> 
> View attachment 15104079
> ...


If John at Watch Gauge will be stocking them I'll likely pick up another.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> A little sneak peak at the 2K1 (the watch formerly called the L/XL Sub)...
> View attachment 15104081
> 
> View attachment 15104079
> ...


Thickness?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

127.72 MHz said:


> If John at Watch Gauge will be stocking them I'll likely pick up another.


I have no doubt he will.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

This fall?!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I know the case illustrations aren't mind-blowing. At first blush, it probably seems to be just another Sub homage case.

First off - the case was inspired by the original 610m WR sub, the Comex-modified 5513 (which later became the original Sea-Dweller), so...yeah, it's a Sub homage case. Duh. 

While it was inspired by a Sub case, it's an original case design. It took some finagling to get that chamfer to run out to the tip of the crown guards, and to get those crown guards to be as thin as they are. We spent a lot of time on that, as well as some other subtle details most people are likely going to overlook. It's not a 1:1 recreation of anything else that I'm aware of.

Secondly - I'll reveal the case thickness later. I know what it's supposed to be, based on the design, and what we confirmed with the engineers at the case factory. But, sometimes what we get is slightly thinner, or thicker. I want to at least let Rusty open up the 3D files we just got, and confirm we got what we're expecting, before I go blabbing about it.

But, that said - it's VERY thin, given the case diameter and WR. Extremely thin, and quite wearable. Thinner than the Tudor Pelagos. Much thinner than the Sea-Dweller ever was (any version of it). Thinner than most 500m-600m watches out there, including the 42mm CW Trident (but not thinner than the 40mm or 38mm CW Trident 600).

I'll be revealing more in the blog on the website. If you're not already signed up for it, subscribe to the email newsletter. The designs, like the case, will be familiar, but more original, less of an homage to anything produced by the usual sources of inspiration.


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## 127.72 MHz (Apr 27, 2020)

docvail said:


> I have no doubt he will.


John Keil sells nice watches but what John really sells is his word, and it's been golden to me. Last watch I purchased I had a slight issue and he had a replacement out to me with a return label the same day,...

I have more expensive watches but John Keil's phone number is the only dealer I have in my cell phone.

Not that I don't appreciate your watches too! True story, last week I put on my Tudor Sub and my wife said I should wear the NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt,.....She likes the looks of it better! I had to smile.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Looks awesome! 
Just measured my Oberon from parts on the endlinks that are sticking out and its 52mm. 
So I should be able to pull 51mm off.
Are the endlinks going to be female so they drop right away? 
Looking forward to seeing the designs.
Fingers crossed for a deep gloss/inky black dial. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Wonders if it’ll be joined, lug to lug, by a jubilee...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I think what you’ve shown of the 2K1 looks great.

Looking forward to more.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Looks awesome!
> Just measured my Oberon from parts on the endlinks that are sticking out and its 52mm.
> So I should be able to pull 51mm off.
> Are the endlinks going to be female so they drop right away?
> ...


Male endlinks.



captainmorbid said:


> Wonders if it'll be joined, lug to lug, by a jubilee...
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Oyster bracelet.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That's a good looking case shape. Love the thin lugs (looking from top) and the smooth lines. Bezel grip design seems good too.

How much would the lug to lug end up being, counting in the little dickies of the male endlinks? 57mm or so? Guess we'll find out.

"2001" is a pretty great number to have on the dial.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

127.72 MHz said:


> .....True story, last week I put on my Tudor Sub and my wife said I should wear the NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt,.....She likes the looks of it better! I had to smile.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So this morning over coffee I thought of the perfect dial design for the new 2K1....









The NTH 2K1 Odyssey

Sure, it'll need some indexes, hands and a logo. But it's pefect!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> That's a good looking case shape. Love the thin lugs (looking from top) and the smooth lines. Bezel grip design seems good too.
> 
> How much would the lug to lug end up being, counting in the little dickies of the male endlinks? 57mm or so? Guess we'll find out.
> 
> "2001" is a pretty great number to have on the dial.


I'm kind of over the whole "but male end-links extend the lug length" argument.

The lugs are curved downward, to hug the wrist. So are the end-links. If everything was flat, I'd sympathize with people's concerns, but since everything is curved, I don't.

The dials will say 610m / 2001 feet.

"2K1" rolls off the tongue better and is more meaningful/relevant than "L/XL".

---

Pretty sure I discussed this before, but if not - the proportions (diameter vs lug length vs lug width, but not thickness, because the Sea-Dweller was a very chunky monkey) of the case were largely inspired by the 1967 Rolex Sea Dweller, which was good to 610m/2001 feet, and has an interesting back-story, at least, in my opinion...

Rolex and its sister brand Tudor were suppliers to US, British and French military divers since the mid-50's. (Fun fact - when Jacques Cousteau was a French naval officer in WWII, he helped set up France's elite commando frogmen unit.). The classic lines of the "MilSub" (shared with the Tudor Snowflake Sub) debuted in 1962, with the ref. 5513.

Almost immediately, the French diving org Comex couldn't leave well enough alone (typical WIS), and wanted to give it a helium release anus (valve, whatever). Didn't take them too long, either. I'm pretty sure I read they retro-fitted some 5513's with HRV's in 1963. Spoiler alert - they worked.

Fast forward to 1967, and for some reason, the British MOD told Rolex to piss off, so they could party with Omega for the next 3-4 years, giving birth to the now-iconic Seamaster 300. Rolex was all like, "Screw you, England, check out the all-new Sea-Dweller, and its fancy anus, which lets it go 3x deeper than your stupid Seamaster!"

There must have been some special kind of magic in Rolex's anus. By the early '70's, they were back on top of arch-rival Omega - supplying the MOD again, and making co-branded "Comex" submariners (only good to 200m, not 610m) issued to divers (never available in stores), setting in motion a chain of events which would eventually have WIS in the future soiling their shorts over beat-to-hell tool watches from the late 60's and early 70's.

And...here we are. All's well that ends well.


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## graham.r (Apr 6, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> a few NTH for sale on Ebay BNIB from a British seller, are these part of the Page and Cooper liquidation?


:
From the AD on the Bay:
Please note, there may be a delay of up to 5-7 working days before the watch is despatched. 
Each of these NTH watches will be ordered directly from our suppliers in Italy.

So, Not from P & C..


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Being able to strategically set the quoted depth rating is kinda cool. 

Do watch brands typically physically test new designs to determine depth rating? Or is there a way to accurately estimate it based on design elements, materials, etc? I imagine from there, they can lower (numerically) the advertised depth to a round or cool number. 

Rolls Royce used to quote horsepower as “Ample”. Or similar word. That would work for my watch needs. Can be used for any sort of diving? Perfect, it’ll survive anything I do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Being able to strategically set the quoted depth rating is kinda cool.
> 
> Do watch brands typically physically test new designs to determine depth rating? Or is there a way to accurately estimate it based on design elements, materials, etc? I imagine from there, they can lower (numerically) the advertised depth to a round or cool number.
> 
> ...


I can't speak for other brands.

Our case factory's engineers are conservative. The watches are all over-engineered, such that their real / literal capability exceeds the stated spec. And yes, we test them all, before and after assembly.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sea-Dweller history from the Watch .... channel:


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Being able to strategically set the quoted depth rating is kinda cool.
> 
> Do watch brands typically physically test new designs to determine depth rating? Or is there a way to accurately estimate it based on design elements, materials, etc? I imagine from there, they can lower (numerically) the advertised depth to a round or cool number.
> 
> ...


I think the ISO spec requires a dive watch to be able to exceed at least 25% of its rated spec. It also requires that every watch be individually tested. If you're not worried about that, you can print almost anything you want on the dial, although I think it's generally expected that these depth rating numbers are conservative - similar to how your car's fuel tank reading "E" doesn't _really_ mean empty, there's likely a gallon or so buffer in there still.

I'm quite sure that Bulova's Devil Diver can easily exceed 666 feet, but printing 700 or whatever on the dial isn't as cool. Seiko is incredibly conservative with the Tuna's 1000m rating. A couple of them were tested in deep water, and survived down to around 4000m when compression on the case caused the movements to stop. Given what a truck the 300m version is, I bet it could probably double that without breaking a sweat.


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

docvail said:


> There are only a few pieces left available, and they're all at Watch Gauge - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth


Doc or owners. I have an 8.5" wrist. will be bracelet be large enough? If not, can i purchase additional links?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

My wrist is a little over 7.5" and I had to remove 4 links iirc. I think you'll be just fine. If not I've got a full untouched oyster still in plastic and my extra links that I took out, so if you do buy and need extras, feel free to ask.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RickHoliday said:


> Doc or owners. I have an 8.5" wrist. will be bracelet be large enough? If not, can i purchase additional links?


It should be large enough.

If not, we can get you some extra links.


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> My wrist is a little over 7.5" and I had to remove 4 links iirc. I think you'll be just fine. If not I've got a full untouched oyster still in plastic and my extra links that I took out, so if you do buy and need extras, feel free to ask.


thanks everyone, i really appreciate it - Great people and a great product, I just put my order in!


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> My wrist is a little over 7.5" and I had to remove 4 links iirc. I think you'll be just fine. If not I've got a full untouched oyster still in plastic and my extra links that I took out, so if you do buy and need extras, feel free to ask.


thanks everyone, i really appreciate it - Great people and a great product, so i had to order! A no date Commando is on the way


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

.








Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TgeekB said:


> Oh good, another wall of text (that I won't read).


Sorry. I'll try to keep my replies to you and people like you shorter from now on. I wouldn't call it slow; let's just say simple. :-d



Hornet99 said:


> I read it and can happily confirm that you didn't miss anything........


I did miss you all though! ;-)



MikeyT said:


> I read about half of it, and thought "What's the point?"
> 
> Now I see he has been sent to band camp.


GOTCHA!  Fresh out now too! b-)


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Someone who is just looking to scam buyers and sellers in the for-sale forums is more likely to simply move on, rather than post 100 times. That's why there's a rule against speed-posting.
> 
> When someone has 100 posts which actually contribute something to the forum, besides "nice watch!" or "I agree!", it creates a history which shows they didn't just join to scam people.
> 
> ...


I get that. I was more upset because my posts weren't really that type of short, effortless comment. I tried to keep it about watches or reply to trolls who had nothing else to say except something about me or their difficulty reading anything longer than a small sentence. Whatever! Did my time, now I'm back out. Back to watches now.

I recently bought an Omega which I thought would be the reason I'd consolidate my collection, but (even though I could use the funds after such a large purchase) I'm still having trouble selling my NTHs and L&Hs because of the great value they offer and how much I still like to wear them. You really make a watch that can hang with the big boys, Doc! I felt you should know. :-!


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)




----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Looks like it's watch photo time.......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Yeh, sort of morphed into a Yankee E, "Sub"-Concious photo-stylee mode for a while there.........

S'okay, I'm over it now.........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Subs engage silent-running mode with ultra-lume capabilities........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ragl said:


> Looks like it's watch photo time.......
> 
> View attachment 15107895
> 
> ...


Very cool trio.

Where did you get those stands?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Walk started at 8:00 on the nose. So timing bezel simultaneously in use and parked at home position.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

3WR said:


> Very cool trio.
> 
> Where did you get those stands?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Surreptitiously and unashamedly filched from Yankee Express's camera gadget bag.....

As much as I'd like that to be true, such items can be obtained here, from the Bay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MK-Clear...042689?hash=item1c6bc34181:g:rT0AAOSwTuJYvZoA

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out there!

Nice stormy Sunday morning here today. Got up early so the wife could sleep in, and spent a few minutes on the back porch sipping coffee and watching the rain with this beauty.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Got the Sauro on deck for tomorrow's work on Texas A&M's prototype growroom.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Coriolanus said:


> Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out there!
> 
> ...


I suspect we'll have to relay the message for you. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Walk started at 8:00 on the nose. So timing bezel simultaneously in use and parked at home position.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice strap. ColaReb?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Very nice strap. ColaReb?


Thanks. Much lower rent. Cheapest Nato Strap. Rodeo in Brandy. I think it looks nice. Not sure how durable it will be.

https://www.cheapestnatostraps.com/search?q=rodeo&type=product


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Thanks. Much lower rent. Cheapest Nato Strap. Rodeo in Brandy. I think it looks nice. Not sure how durable it will be.
> 
> https://www.cheapestnatostraps.com/search?q=rodeo&type=product


Cheers. Very nice that they have short length QR straps - those are surprisingly difficult to find. CW doesn't make them anymore (grrr) and Strapsco and Watch Gecko only offer a select few lines in short length.


----------



## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

Wearing the Skipjack for my 21st 🎉


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Danielc117 said:


> Wearing the Skipjack for my 21st 🎉
> View attachment 15110783


Happy 21st young'un. Enjoy your first legal booze, lol.


----------



## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Happy 21st young'un. Enjoy your first legal booze, lol.


Thank you very much. I'm Irish so I've been drinking since I was born haha.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## garydusa (Jan 16, 2013)

*DevilRay 








*


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Ah man...a Skipjack and Devil Ray back to back. Two of my favorites.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bezel inserts!

Still not ready for purchase yet. We've hit a couple snags along the way, but we'll be ready soon.

Calm your tits. We'll send out an email blast when they're ready.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those not on the Halios email list - it appears the Fairwind went on sale about 3 hours ago, and isn't sold out yet - https://halioswatches.com/products/fairwind.

It appears that delivery is targeted for August, four months from now.

I can only speculate, but as it isn't sold out yet, perhaps the numbers aren't all that limited, and we can put the "artificial scarcity" theory to rest.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Came home to a package from CNS. I'm diggin the "Regatta".


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Gotta say, for as much as I think Ball drops the...er..ball...on design, the 40mm Engineer M is _very_ pretty. I'm amazed that it doesn't have its date window at 7:30, or a day window at 9. It's....normal. Not even a cyclops which they seem to insist on sticking on everything. Just wish it wasn't Grand Seiko thick.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15111025


Huh. I didn't think anyone used mechanical watches as bomb timers.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Bezel inserts!
> 
> Still not ready for purchase yet. We've hit a couple snags along the way, but we'll be ready soon.
> 
> ...












But otherwise,










Also, I hadn't been following along closely lately, so I just saw on the website the forthcoming DRs that are using a more egalitarian movement to make them all the more accessible.

Bravo.

The Swiss innards  factor wore off for me aways back.

I've always appreciated NTH's thoughtful attitude toward Japanese alternatives and value considerations, and willingness to take some  flak for it (and to be a little pugnacious in return).

I hope the move gets what has become my fav NTH model onto more folks' wrists!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Dub Rubb said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 15111025
> ...


Ba dum tsssss


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15111025


Welcome to the new Milwaukee Tool Forum!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Bezel inserts!
> 
> Still not ready for purchase yet. We've hit a couple snags along the way, but we'll be ready soon.
> 
> ...


Me:







^^^Doc


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotta say, for as much as I think Ball drops the...er..ball...on design, the 40mm Engineer M is _very_ pretty. I'm amazed that it doesn't have its date window at 7:30, or a day window at 9. It's....normal. Not even a cyclops which they seem to insist on sticking on everything. Just wish it wasn't Grand Seiko thick.
> 
> View attachment 15113287


I just wish it didn't have that forkful of spaghetti on the end of the second hand...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotta say, for as much as I think Ball drops the...er..ball...on design, the 40mm Engineer M is _very_ pretty. I'm amazed that it doesn't have its date window at 7:30, or a day window at 9. It's....normal. Not even a cyclops which they seem to insist on sticking on everything. Just wish it wasn't Grand Seiko thick.
> 
> View attachment 15113287


That is handsome.

At a quick glance, I thought it was a Halios.

The 3 o'clock index is a little odd. So it has that piece of flair.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotta say, for as much as I think Ball drops the...er..ball...on design, the 40mm Engineer M is _very_ pretty. I'm amazed that it doesn't have its date window at 7:30, or a day window at 9. It's....normal. Not even a cyclops which they seem to insist on sticking on everything. Just wish it wasn't Grand Seiko thick.
> 
> View attachment 15113287


Nice. 
Who is "Bopowerhrs"? Some celebrity, or...?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> That is handsome.
> 
> At a quick glance, I thought it was a Halios.
> 
> ...


That's true. Not sure why it's like that, like if those single piece glass covers can't be done half size for some reason. On the 43mm version the 3 o'clock index is normal, but I think 43/50 is too big for that style of watch. When I first became aware of Ball watches I hated the spaghetti counterbalance, but I don't feel like it bothers me anymore. I do wish I could've sat in on the meeting where they decided on "80POWERHRS."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads up -

We found one (1) Nacken Modern Blue, NO date, hiding in the shop.

It's available from the NTH website.

It probably won't last long, so...

https://nthwatches.com/products/nacken-modern-blue


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

You probably can't see it, but there is a strap in this Dolphin photo. Viewed through eyeballs at arm's length, the pattern blends together more.


----------



## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

3WR said:


> You probably can't see it, but there is a strap in this Dolphin photo. Viewed through eyeballs at arm's length, the pattern blends together more.
> 
> View attachment 15116503


What brand is the strap? It looks great. Gives me the AP Offshore camo vibe


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mgp123 said:


> What brand is the strap? It looks great. Gives me the AP Offshore camo vibe


Thanks. Cheapest Nato Straps. Costs nothing. Doesn't feel like junk.

https://www.cheapestnatostraps.com/...-rubber-watch-bands/products/rubber-gray-camo


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You can now buy replacement bezel inserts for the NTH Subs from the NTH website.

https://nthwatches.com/products/replacement-bezel-insert-for-nth-subs

Go crazy.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You can now buy replacement bezel inserts for the NTH Subs from the NTH website.
> 
> [/url]https://nthwatches.com/products/replacement-bezel-insert-for-nth-subs[/url]
> 
> Go crazy.












Just grabbed a spare for if and when the scratches on my insert come to annoy me enough.

But I'm looking forward to abuse of this new offering and the thread turning into a modder's paradise 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Couple bezel inserts ordered. Figured it would be a good time to pick up a BoP bracelet, too...

Depending on how long they last, there's 2-3 other inserts I may pick up...

Only downside? Last year, this time, I had a Scorpene and was about to flip it for an Amphion Commando. Which I did. And then the Commando got flipped for a Scorpene Nomad. Now, if these had been on sale at the time, it would have been one and done... Well played, Doc, well played.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Just grabbed a spare for if and when the scratches on my insert come to annoy me enough.
> 
> But I'm looking forward to abuse of this new offering and the thread turning into a modder's paradise
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Me too.



mconlonx said:


> View attachment 15118443
> 
> 
> Couple bezel inserts ordered. Figured it would be a good time to pick up a BoP bracelet, too...
> ...


There's a madness to my method.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also just as an FYI - We recently added some models to the nearly new section on the website.

https://nthwatches.com/collections/nearly-new


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

So who's got the instructions for replacing an insert without destroying the original?

There's a couple possibilities that I'm pondering for my skipjack.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

ck2k01 said:


> Just grabbed a spare for if and when the scratches on my insert come to annoy me enough.
> 
> But I'm looking forward to abuse of this new offering and the thread turning into a modder's paradise


As the thread's resident Captain Patina, Master of Wabi-Sabi, please feel free to send me your battered and abused bezel inserts!


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Man, I know it would be a PITA to put up on the website Chris, but an Undone style insert-matcher feature where you could play customise / dress-up on the Subs would be lots of fun.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

92gli said:


> So who's got the instructions for replacing an insert without destroying the original?
> 
> There's a couple possibilities that I'm pondering for my skipjack.


It's, like, RIGHT THERE if you scroll down from Doc's link...



> Be sure to carefully read the bezel insert replacement instructions! Prying the bezel assembly off the mid-case may damage the parts!
> 
> 1. Prior to removing the original bezel insert, align the bezel so that the new insert will be correctly aligned once installed.
> 
> ...


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Bezel inserts are for the weak.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> It's, like, RIGHT THERE if you scroll down from Doc's link...


I didn't get that far. I was mesmerized by all the pretty colors while simultaneously giggling over doc shaking his head at the upcoming flood of franken-models that will be created.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> So who's got the instructions for replacing an insert without destroying the original?
> 
> There's a couple possibilities that I'm pondering for my skipjack.


Did you check the product page where all the inserts are listed?

Because - spoiler alert! - the instructions are there, on that page.

EDIT - Aaaaannnnddddd...I see MC Lonix beat me to it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Man, I know it would be a PITA to put up on the website Chris, but an Undone style insert-matcher feature where you could play customise / dress-up on the Subs would be lots of fun.


I thought about it, but that functionality isn't built into my site. There may be an app for it. I'd have to look.

If you look at the bezel insert page, and try the drop-down menu, you'll see that whatever model/insert you choose, the page will shuffle to exactly that image. It's actually pretty slick. But requires someone to connect an image with each SKU in that drop down menu.

In order to do a mix-and-match engine, which would show every possible combination of dial and bezel, we'd have to have an illustration for every possible permutation. We've got 33 different bezel inserts so far, and 39 different dials. That's 1246 different images to create, when we back out the original combinations.

If we had an app that we could install, which would create overlay/combo images by adding an image of the insert to one of the dial/hands, and put both into a case, it would be easier. We'd just need 73 images, total.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> It's, like, RIGHT THERE if you scroll down from Doc's link...


Fun fact - you can also use these instructions to re-align any bezel insert which might be off by up to 0.42%.

EDIT - I should probably clarify - don't pry the bezel out. Just heat it, nudge it to where you want it, then let it cool.


----------



## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

Fresh arrival from FedEx...along with a personalized note from the distributor and a brand owner who cares about his customers....i'll be back for more!


----------



## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

duplicate


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Fun fact - you can also use these instructions to re-align any bezel insert which might be off by up to 0.42%.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Another little tease.

More to follow.

Be sure to sign up for the email newsletter on the NTH website.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RickHoliday said:


> Fresh arrival from FedEx...along with a personalized note from the distributor and a brand owner who cares about his customers....i'll be back for more!
> 
> View attachment 15119047


Nice pussy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Fun fact - you can also use these instructions to re-align any bezel insert which might be off by up to 0.42%.


I should probably clarify - don't pry the bezel out. Just heat it, nudge it to where you want it, then let it cool.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

My Amphion Commando went straight on a MN-style elastic band, but have a greeny-grey padded sailcloth strap incoming for it.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> My Amphion Commando went straight on a MN-style elastic band, but have a greeny-grey padded sailcloth strap incoming for it.
> 
> It's a great look for that watch...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Another little tease.
> 
> More to follow.
> 
> ...


I'm drooling already..... How many variations are you planning? If you've told us before, I apologize... I'm too lazy to scroll back through the pages.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Another little tease.
> 
> More to follow.
> 
> ...


Dammit Chris!!! I thought 3 subs was enough. If there is a no date version, I am done for. Might as well Just email John Keil now.

I have been smitten with the rhodium/blue dot OP for a while now, and this may scratch that itch, especially if I give it the HWA treatment.

Also, I am really digging that handset. Bravo Doc, bravo.
Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Actually just looked at the name. Swiftsure. You sticking with the Royal Navy for the names of the 2001 lineup? Astute sounds good too... Swiftsure class' replacement.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Another little tease.
> 
> More to follow.
> 
> ...


That is a serious looker, Doc, so well done. I think these are going to fly off the the shelves. The only thing keeping my own wallet safe is that the L2L is just too long for my wrist.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Super cool design... but too large for me. On one hand, bummer; on the other, my wallet iis breathing a sigh of.relief.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Another little tease.
> 
> More to follow.
> 
> ...


Cool.

Can Rusty borrow that dial? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Another little tease.
> 
> More to follow.
> 
> ...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Man, that Swiftsure is sweet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'm drooling already..... How many variations are you planning? If you've told us before, I apologize... I'm too lazy to scroll back through the pages.


Stay tuned...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Dammit Chris!!! I thought 3 subs was enough. If there is a no date version, I am done for. Might as well Just email John Keil now.
> 
> I have been smitten with the rhodium/blue dot OP for a while now, and this may scratch that itch, especially if I give it the HWA treatment.
> 
> ...


When is there NOT a no-date version?


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Looks great!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mi.../navy-extra-large-unmanned-submarines-boeing/

Swiftsure is a cool one, but just sayin'....

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Another little tease.
> 
> More to follow.
> 
> ...


So before I was all, "43mm? Soul brother too beaucoup..."

After seeing this, I'm like, "That's a fine specimen, and it ain't too damn 'bow coo'."


----------



## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Came home to a package from CNS. I'm diggin the "Regatta".
> View attachment 15112569


First, gorgeous combo. Second, I feel I am becoming infected by the novel WUS NTH fan disease* since I had a near insatiable desire to send Doc an email asking if I could get the watch with a different handset...

* the disease's primary symtom is asking docvail questions that you already know the answer to is NO


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Jade Samurai in progress....


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

So... the bezel shop is kind of like an NTH Sub model archive. Never say never. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Tikuna.......









Chow,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Another little tease.
> 
> More to follow.
> 
> ...


*actual size

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Dub Rubb said:


> Dammit Chris!!! I thought 3 subs was enough. If there is a no date version, I am done for. Might as well Just email John Keil now.
> 
> I have been smitten with the rhodium/blue dot OP for a while now, and this may scratch that itch, especially if I give it the HWA treatment.
> 
> ...


EDIT: Dub, I've seen multiple case numbers. 43? Could swear I heard some other number at some point... The 40 has a 29 dial. If 43, figure a 31.5 dial, pretty standard. At that size, you could play all day with a 38mm case...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Actually just looked at the name. Swiftsure. You sticking with the Royal Navy for the names of the 2001 lineup? Astute sounds good too... Swiftsure class' replacement.


All the NTH Subs are named after various classes of submarines, from all over the world, not just the UK.

I try to match names to models as best I can, taking into consideration how the name sounds, which country(ies) used that class of sub, the sub's history and period of active service, etc.

It's more art than science, all very subjective.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> https://www.popularmechanics.com/mi.../navy-extra-large-unmanned-submarines-boeing/
> 
> Swiftsure is a cool one, but just sayin'....
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


That is cool.

Although, I question the appropriateness of naming a "giant" sub after what is a relatively small whale.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> So before I was all, "43mm? Soul brother too beaucoup..."
> 
> After seeing this, I'm like, "That's a fine specimen, and it ain't too damn 'bow coo'."


I'm honestly unsure what would be the more accurate diameter dimension - the bezel, which is 43.75mm, or the actual case, which is only 41.75mm. I suppose the larger dimension, since that's what's visible on the wrist, and what drives the lug-to-lug (which is arguably more important anyway, when it comes to size vs fit).

I've got a ~7-7.25 inch wrist, which seems to be about average for an adult male. 52mm is about the longest lug-to-lug I can pull off. I think with the curved-down lugs and end-links, the 51mm L2L dimension will be fine for most average-sized and larger wrists.

In any event, the watch was meant to satisfy demand from all those guys who say the 40mm Subs are too small, so I don't expect a lot of guys who love the 40mm Subs to also buy a 2K1. Every other model NTH has produced so far has had a 48mm or shorter lug length, so it's not like I've ignored demand for smaller sizes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ilitig8 said:


> First, gorgeous combo. Second, I feel I am becoming infected by the novel WUS NTH fan disease* since I had a near insatiable desire to send Doc an email asking if I could get the watch with a different handset...
> 
> * the disease's primary symtom is asking docvail questions that you already know the answer to is NO


Indeed, the answer is no. We don't sell dials, handsets, or movements.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> All the NTH Subs are named after various classes of submarines, from all over the world, not just the UK.
> 
> I try to match names to models as best I can, taking into consideration how the name sounds, which country(ies) used that class of sub, the sub's history and period of active service, etc.
> 
> It's more art than science, all very subjective.


Case in point. Orange watch, Dutch name. It really trips of the tongue (in cheek).








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, let me just be very clear about this...

We've always had replacement bezel inserts available for anyone who *needed* a replacement. We used to require photos to show the parts being replaced, because I didn't want to support modders potentially destroying their watch, and because the truth is we had very limited spare parts inventory. I was concerned about selling parts to modders, and running out of something a customer would later need for a legitimate repair.

It was only recently I got my vendors to agree to sell me inserts without having to order watches. I still worry about people possibly doing damage to their watches by modding them, but I got tired of catching grief from guys who didn't like that they couldn't just buy a spare insert on demand, without having to jump through any hoops, and having to deal with the unending complaints / requests from guys who just couldn't get past the stock insert that came with their watch.

I can't stop anyone from modding their watches (clearly, despite my best efforts - just look at HWA as a worst-case example to see how little control I have). But, if you guys do that, it's on you. I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything. My one and only goal was to increase my customers' convenience, and cut down on the number of emails we get from guys asking us to sell them an insert, "just in case", or because they like some other insert better than what they have.

This decision is entirely reversible. I don't have to make replacement parts available on demand. I hope I don't come to regret this decision, which, again, was made in the hopes my customers see it as a benefit (by increasing their convenience). 

Our inserts are pretty durable parts. My Scorpene has lost a bracelet screw, and gone flying off my wrist, at least twice. One of those times, it went skidding across a bunch of paver stones, and I can say with a completely straight face that it shows no signs of damage whatsoever. I'm not worried about sending an insert through the mail.

But, I swear on all that's holy, if I start getting unending requests for dials and handsets, or if I see people online suggesting I need to support the modder who destroyed his case doing a simple bezel insert swap (for which, the website has idiot-proof instructions), I will shut it all down, and we can go back to "you send me a pic of the part in need of replacement, and I'll sell you a replacement, otherwise, you can go pound sand."

This is me, wearing my big boy pants, talking to you, hopefully also wearing your big boy pants. 

Big boys take responsibility for their own actions, and mistakes. You break it, you still own it, and you may not like the outcome. Don't blame me.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> This is me, wearing my big boy pants, talking to you, hopefully also wearing your big boy pants.
> 
> Big boys take responsibility for their own actions, and mistakes. You break it, you still own it, and you may not like the outcome. Don't blame me.


doc, this is the internet.

Most of your audience aren't wearing any pants at all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> doc, this is the internet.
> 
> Most of your audience aren't wearing any pants at all.


I'm not.

Pants are a metaphor. They cover your vulnerable bits.

Protect your bits, is all I'm saying.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

These are my little big boy pants, or, big little guy pants., whatever.


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Looking forward to my incoming mod part (err, spare insert) 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Honestly, I think we're on to something new here.










I even dusted off some "Marine panties" for this photo op, to honor Doc's time in the service (I'm just a runner, not a Marine-not stealing any valor).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> But, I swear on all that's holy, if I start getting unending requests for dials and handsets, or if I see people online suggesting I need to support the modder who destroyed his case doing a simple bezel insert swap (for which, the website has idiot-proof instructions), I will shut it all down, and we can go back to "you send me a pic of the part in need of replacement, and I'll sell you a replacement, otherwise, you can go pound sand."


Never underestimate people's ability to be idiots on a biblical scale. Still, I would _hope_ that people would understand that modding is very much a "you broke it, you bought it" sort of thing. I would also assume most watchmakers would be happy to do the work, probably for like $20 or so.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Never underestimate people's ability to be idiots on a biblical scale.


It is impossible that anyone who's looked at my inbox as much as I have could ever, even conceivably, remotely underestimate people's ability to be idiots.

Just a sampling of recent missives which found their way to us...

*"Where can I order the inserts?" * - From a contact form submission, received shortly after we sent out an email blast about the inserts, so, assumed to be in response to the email blast.

The email blast had a link to exactly that page on our website. By contrast, the contact page is all but impossible to find, by design.

Whereas the main (top) navigation of the NTH site has a drop down for all product categories (including "Accessories & Parts", where you can easily locate the inserts), the contact page isn't in any of the site's navigation.

To find it, you must first find the link to the FAQ's page, which is at the bottom of the site. Then, once in the FAQ's page (which, for the love of God, why not read, while you're there?), the link to the contact page is all the way at the bottom. To get there, you first must pass by a section of FAQ's which are labeled "Other FAQ's", since they don't fall into any obvious major category.

Anyone want to guess what's in that section? If you guessed there's an FAQ dealing with replacement parts, including a specific mention of inserts, which also has a direct link to the inserts page on the site - you're paying attention.

*"Will the insert fit all NTH divers?"* - From someone who just purchased an insert, and therefore MUST have seen the extensive list of watches which the inserts will fit.

I mean - we've made nothing BUT divers. Why would the Subs' inserts fit the DevilRay, or the Tropics (which are internal bezels)? If they did, why wouldn't we include them in the drop-down list?

If that question was meant to mean just the NTH Subs - the very page which was just visited (to buy the insert they just bought) has that answer, implicitly, in the drop down menu.

*"Will the [NTH Subs model] insert also fit my [likewise, an NTH Subs model]?"* - Also from the contact form.

I would have thought this would be obvious to anyone, without having to visit that product page on the site, where both those models would be listed, but certainly should be painfully obvious once there. And, if not, then in that case, that's why I added the bezel insert dimensions, hoping, again, that by implication, the answer to that question would be obvious.

*"Is it the same color scheme, except with just the ______?" *- From the same message as the above.

I anticipated this. In preparation for EXACTLY this sort of question, the "how is ____ different than ___" question, I had my virtual assistant go to the trouble of adding idiot-proof text to each and every image on that page, so that even if someone couldn't trust their own eyes and the images seen, the words would make things unavoidably clear.

I *KNEW* that no amount of visual clue would stop this question from reaching me. I was certain I could stop it with clear and obvious text in those images. I was wrong. So, so, so wrong.

The only hitch in my plan is that one must actually look at that page, and see those words, and read them.

Why someone might go to the trouble of finding and submitting the website's contact form, before first visiting that insert page, where one would think they'd see the answer to that exact question - still eludes me.

*"Is it possible a heat gun could affect the AR coating?"* - From the same exchange as the two above.

Why, in the world, would we tell you to do something, if there was a chance it would cause damage?

We wouldn't.

I mean, those instructions are prefaced by huge, bold-face font, indicating that you shouldn't pry the bezel off the case, because it could lead to damage. Clearly, we've done this before, and we know how to effect this operation safely. If something was going to cause damage, we'd tell you not to do it.

By inference, then, you can rest assured, that we don't believe heating the bezel will have any effect on the AR.

*"The instructions don't explain how to clean the bezel before installing the new insert."* - Also from the same exchange as the above three entries. Yes, this one was persistent, as he was comprehensive.

Seriously? Do we really need to be that specific, about the proper ways and means to remove adhesive from a surface? Are you saying you somehow went your whole life without once ever having to clean adhesive residue off ANYTHING?

I can't even.

*"I don't like the bezel which came with the watch I bought (literally four years ago, but this is the first we've heard about it), because ____. Can you tell me which one has [different] ___."* - From the website contact form, shortly after the email blast.

Again, the blast had a link to the product page on the site (which is infinitely easier to locate than the contact page), and where each and every insert can be seen, along with explicit details on its features, including the ____ he was asking about.

In our response, we pointed out that the product images all have those explicit details. That should have been enough. But, it wasn't. He was adamant that we needed to guide him to precisely the insert he wanted, and repeated the specific annoyance with the original insert.

I had to explain - first, four years is a long time to be holding that complaint in. I wish you'd have brought it to us as soon as you got the watch, when I could have, and would happily have offered you a replacement of a different model, or a refund. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up now (twice).

Secondly, personal shopping services aren't included in the price of what we sell, and I don't want to be held responsible for the results of possibly misunderstanding what you say you want, or you simply not liking whatever we recommend.

So, why not take two minutes, look at the images, read the text on each one, decide what you like, and leave us out of it, mmkay?

---

You guys have no idea, how real the struggle is. This is why I don't like to do things people ask me to do. "Just put the inserts up on the website, so people can buy them. What could go wrong?"

Everything. Literally, everything. Everything could go horribly, disastrously wrong.

Because even though 99.9% of the population can read and has some minimum amount of common sense, 0.1% are beyond my help, yet they are irresistibly attracted to me, the way hot women are attracted to irredeemable men, like cats to catnip, like my dog to your crotch, or like my sons to the cookies in the kitchen cabinet, which should be enough to last the family a week, but won't be, because those two a$$holes insist on taking the entire box into their room with them, and eating the entire box like it's a single-serving bag of airplane peanuts.

Trolling starts in 3...2...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The problem with idiot proofing something is they keep making stupider idiots.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I think I work with most of those people.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Idiot proofing is an oxymoron like military intelligence


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> [WoT rant]


Thank you for making me happy regardless 

Although for realsies, I appreciate the difficult position you're in.

I've definitely buggered watches before trying to "fix" something myself (I'm not saying I currently have a watch in to a watchmaker for potential rebrushing, but I'm not saying I don't either).

And I imagine not everyone is WIS-like and willing to conclude, "yep, this one's definitely on me and my impulsivity/carelessness/lack of any real skill-I'd never contact the OEM about it."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

docvail said:


> Indeed, the answer is no. We don't sell dials, handsets, or movements.


Twas just kidding. I could change the handset in not much more time than it would take me to ask you if it was possible.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I had trouble finding inserts at first in my phone browser. Went back and used link posted here in forum. Thought maybe bezels were hidden from casual web shoppers without skin in the forum game. That was before the pants warning and email blast.

Having noticed this little "+", I now see the normal path to the parts.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Just ordered two bezels for specific mods. These will be my first attempts at a bezel change. I have done dial and hand swaps but never a bezel insert. Here's hoping I don't ruin the watches 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Just ordered two bezels for specific mods. These will be my first attempts at a bezel change. I have done dial and hand swaps but never a bezel insert. Here's hoping I don't ruin the watches
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


It's actually a cunning ploy to get everyone to screw up their watch, and then need to buy a new one...

And just for the record, one of my subs has had three bezels, and four different dials. I didn't do the work, mind you. I found a guy....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> I had trouble finding inserts at first in my phone browser. Went back and used link posted here in forum. Thought maybe bezels were hidden from casual web shoppers without skin in the forum game. That was before the pants warning and email blast.
> 
> Having noticed this little "+", I now see the normal path to the parts.
> 
> ...


To be 100% fair - the bezels were NOT visible on the accessories page until this morning. That was my oversight, when I posted the link here and on Facebook.

But, we made sure they were visible on that page BEFORE we sent out the email blast today. I know this, because my marketing guy asked me for the link, so he could add it to the email, because he couldn't find it on the site. He suggested we should add it (duh).

The site is mobile friendly (enough), but, yes, some of the little bits and links aren't immediately obvious, on a smaller screen, in red font, on a black background.

It was one of those days. Every time we send out an email, it seems to be one of those days.

To cap it all off, I spilled vodka and tonic (with a squeeze of lime) on my laptop, not long after I posted that rant (moral of the story - don't drink in the office, kids). It's now sitting in a box of rice on my kitchen table. I'm typing this on my $hltty tv-room chromebook.

If any of you are sitting there, laughing hysterically from the schadenfreude, go ahead. I deserve it.

I can buy a new laptop (and more vodka). You can't buy intelligence.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Our inserts are pretty durable parts. My Scorpene has lost a bracelet screw, and gone flying off my wrist, at least twice. One of those times, it went skidding across a bunch of paver stones, and I can say with a completely straight face that it shows no signs of damage whatsoever. I'm not worried about sending an insert through the mail.


I must be an idiot because just like you I also don't understand how anyone could scratch an NTH Sub bezel insert. I do understand that people want them for modding, but I'm sure that you're going to get a bunch of emails from people who messed up their watches, Doc. That's on you though; you brought this on yourself.

I'm also sure that you'll get stupid questions *every time* you put out anything new as I am sure that some of you need to watch your sodium levels. Your bloated wrist shots are a dead giveaway. Probably the same users who call me a troll because they can't be bothered to read text while using an online forum and report my comments to the mods.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> The site is mobile friendly (enough), but, yes, some of the little bits and links aren't immediately obvious, on a smaller screen, in red font, on a black background.
> 
> ...


I wasn't doing myself any favors trying to read it in the dark without glasses. I should have gotten the phone with a cyclops.

I recently witnessed a smaller scale example of an email bomb. My wife sent out a link to a form and some videos in connection with an upcoming video [school activity] tryout. Along with instructions on how the [school activity] moms needed to access them. Not as simple as "see link, click link", but also not THAT difficult. The email said what to do.

She hit "send" and we left for a walk. Immediately, her phone blew up - both group chat and phone calls. For the next hour, I listened to her side of tech support calls. In almost all cases, it was quickly obvious the person hadn't read the email (either at first or after running into difficulty) or was struggling in such a basic way that almost any task would have been too big of an ask. She persevered for 55 min. longer than I would have.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> I wasn't doing myself any favors trying to read it in the dark without glasses. I should have gotten the phone with a cyclops.
> 
> I recently witnessed a smaller scale example of an email bomb. My wife sent out a link to a form and some videos in connection with an upcoming video [school activity] tryout. Along with instructions on how the [school activity] moms needed to access them. Not as simple as "see link, click link", but also not THAT difficult. The email said what to do.
> 
> She hit "send" and we left for a walk. Immediately, her phone blew up - both group chat and phone calls. For the next hour, I listened to her side of tech support calls. In almost all cases, it was quickly obvious the person hadn't read the email (either at first or after running into difficulty) or was struggling in such a basic way that almost any task would have been too big of an ask. She persevered for 55 min. longer than I would have.


Patience is relative.

My wife and sons think I have none. At all.

My dad doesn't know how I don't wrap my head in duct tape, and my watchmaker doesn't know how I haven't already murdered someone.

True snippet of tonight's dinner conversation:

HER: Don't you have a virtual assistant to handle this stuff for you? Why isn't she responding to these emails?

ME: Yes, I do, but she mostly handles the routine stuff that comes up over and over, or the questions she can answer just by looking at the website. She's not going to be able to handle a guy who asks off-the-wall questions, or who wants to play stump the chump.

HER: But...

ME: Let me stop you there. Anything she can't answer, she asks me. I can spend five minutes telling her how to answer, or I can just answer myself. Take the guy who claims he doesn't know how to clean tape residue off the bezel. Let's say I tell her to ask watchmaker Dan, so I don't have to deal with it. Now I'm paying Dan to tell her how to clean glue off a surface, and paying her to email that to the guy, to tell him something which seems kind of basic.

HER: Wait...a guy said he didn't know how to remove tape? Like, tape? You're serious?

ME: Yes, exactly like tape. I'm as serious as cancer. A guy asked me how to clean tape residue off a surface. You know, like when you peel a piece of tape or a sticker off something, there's some glue stuck behind. I mean...what are the odds someone went his entire life without once ever having to clean adhesive residue off any surface? One in a million, maybe? How many times in your life have you removed a piece of tape or a sticker, and had to clean the glue left behind?

HER: ...a million times. There's no way he's never done that.

ME: I mean...let's say I wasn't here to ask me that. How would you go about figuring that out, if you never did it before?

HER: The guy never heard of "goo-gone"?

ME: Never saw a commercial. Never watched TV. Never asked a question in a hardware store. Never heard of Google.

HER: ...

ME: At a certain point, I have to wonder if some of these guys are just jerking my chain. That wasn't the first question he asked. It was the last. Just one of several which seem intended to waste my time. What's a virtual assistant going to do with that sort of idiocy?


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## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

If residue man's name is Nick Johnson, just tell him to f-off straight away Doc, save yourself a LOT of grief. That's the douche I was referring to in another thread, and sounds like a question he'd ask...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ian_61 said:


> If residue man's name is Nick Johnson, just tell him to f-off straight away Doc, save yourself a LOT of grief. That's the douche I was referring to in another thread, and sounds like a question he'd ask...


It wasn't.

For a time, I was in a private FB group with other microbrand owners. We kept a "no-fly list" of problem customers, guys who tried to rob us, scam artists, etc.

If a guy ever threatened to ruin my reputation by going public with his complaint, I liked to tell him I'd ruin his reputation with every microbrand owner I know.

It was a classic switcheroo.

Sigh...there aren't enough switcheroos any more, sadly.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Virtual assistant is a she? Have never seen the show. But I now picture the NTH offices looking like Mad Men.

Did the virtual assistant agency recommend that gender? Probably proven to be better received than a dude. Do you get to pick one of those headshots of a young woman wearing a telephone headset to pop up on the website?

If we submit a question like "What does the fox say?" will she send back a silly answer like Siri?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> It is impossible that anyone who's looked at my inbox as much as I have could ever, even conceivably, remotely underestimate people's ability to be idiots.
> 
> Just a sampling of recent missives which found their way to us...
> 
> ...


Good job you do all your business online Doc, can't even begin to imagine the "fun" if you had to be in a bricks & mortar store serving customers........


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ilitig8 said:


> Twas just kidding. I could change the handset in not much more time than it would take me to ask you if it was possible.


It's not without good reason(s).

1. We're not set up so sell, nor safely ship small, delicate parts. We can't guarantee their safe transport.

2. There's not nearly enough money in selling those parts to warrant the time I'd spend ordering them, creating the products on the site, having them shipped to the warehouse, responding to questions about them, dealing with the support requests, etc.

3. You can replace a bezel insert without opening the case. You can't do that with dials and hands, which means lots of people might be playing ham-fisted home watch modder, increasing the number of support requests, from people who voided their warranty when they opened the case.

4. You can't damage a steel bezel insert installing it, unless you're trying to. You could easily damage a dial or handset doing a swap (one of my watchmakers did just that), and I guarantee, a lot of guys who did that would claim we shipped them a defective handset or dial, rather than admit their mistake.

5. I already get way too many suggestions / requests for things we'll never make. Do I really want to increase that number, by implicitly inviting people to suggest / request we make this dial, or that handset, because why not, if we don't have to sell the whole watch? (No. No I don't want that, at all. Just kill me now.)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Good job you do all your business online Doc, can't even begin to imagine the "fun" if you had to be in a bricks & mortar store serving customers........


I've worked in bricks-and-mortar.

I think people have a higher propensity to act the fool in electronic comms than they would standing there, facing someone.

That's not to say no one acts the fool in person. They do. I'm extremely fortunate to have learned at the knee of an uncle with his own store, who demonstrated how to deal with a customer who ignores all reason and expects nothing less than complete submission.

You show them the door, and tell them to use it.

Your other customers will thank you for it.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I've worked in bricks-and-mortar.
> 
> I think people have a higher propensity to act the fool in electronic comms than they would standing there, facing someone.
> 
> ...


Thought of you in a store and couldn't get this image out of my head.....










"You want a bezel insert? I'll give you a bezel insert....."

Only pulling your leg Doc, I totally agree with you; the customer is not always right and occasionally you need to tell them that. I remember reading about an airline CEO who actually stood up for his staff and would ban abusive customers, seems like the thing that would be natural for most of us to do, but doesn't actually happen.......

Sent from my SM-T560 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Because why wouldn't my wife buy Skipjack tuna?










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Thought of you in a store and couldn't get this image out of my head.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More like this.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I wonder how long until someone reports that they've tried baking the watch in an oven to loosen the bezel insert...


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> I wonder how long until someone reports that they've tried baking the watch in an oven to loosen the bezel insert...


I always put them in the microwave to remove the bezel inserts... a lot faster haha


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So your literally saying to set your watch on fire to remove the bezel! Cool!!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> If a guy ever threatened to ruin my reputation by going public with his complaint, I liked to tell him I'd ruin his reputation with every microbrand owner I know.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Virtual assistant is a she? Have never seen the show. But I now picture the NTH offices looking like Mad Men.
> 
> Did the virtual assistant agency recommend that gender? Probably proven to be better received than a dude. Do you get to pick one of those headshots of a young woman wearing a telephone headset to pop up on the website?
> 
> ...


Picture Roseanne

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

EDIT: Mm, on second thought, not wanting to run the risk of any offense with gallows humor, redoing the photos from this post.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

ck2k01 said:


> An appropriately creepily filtered photo given the two stressors Doc is currently facing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cherish that N95 mask. I work for a company that sells them and we've been told that they won't be available for non-government until sometime in 2021.


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> Cherish that N95 mask. I work for a company that sells them and we've been told that they won't be available for non-government until sometime in 2021.


Landlord dropped some off that he had sourced. I'll donate them to a local hospital (or however donation of medical supplies works).

The gallows humor may have been a bit much in hindsight, so I edited my original post.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

The watch has gone, the bezel stays..............

A good thing........









Y'all gotta remember, ya can't mess with perfection.........

Cheerz,

Alan


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Mail call...









Will be sizing the BoP bracelet shortly, insert swap will wait until I have some time, but here are some shots with new inserts just resting on the stock one.

















Damn. I like them both... Leaning toward blue, just because I already had a Commando. (Cue: no, dude, go Commando! comments...)


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Mail call...
> 
> [/attach]15125061[/attach]
> 
> ...




I think I'd go Commando.

Steel inserts always look good with black dials, and you'd double up the functionality with that insert.

And, you know, Austria is near Germany:










Indeed, I can even personally confirm:




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Bling!*

(That's the sound of a Beads of Poop bracelet install.)


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> To cap it all off, I spilled vodka and tonic (with a squeeze of lime) on my laptop, not long after I posted that rant (moral of the story - don't drink in the office, kids). It's now sitting in a box of rice on my kitchen table. I'm typing this on my $hltty tv-room chromebook.


I'm not laughing because that definitely sucks, but I will say that "rice dries things out" is a myth. It does pretty much nothing, and is actually less effective than just air drying...at least with phones anyway. I would assume laptops are similar. The best thing I would think (if you haven't already done this) is open the laptop as much as possible. Take the back cover off, and, depending on how modular the laptop is, take as many parts out as you can and dry them individually (battery, wifi card, HDD, etc). On some laptops this is pretty easy, on others, next to impossible.

https://www.gazelle.com/thehorn/wp-...9BFae-J6GCLCt2MOucPPd1mVuCoti8GUp3QdFVKgsYDuU


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm not laughing because that definitely sucks, but I will say that "rice dries things out" is a myth. It does pretty much nothing, and is actually less effective than just air drying...at least with phones anyway. I would assume laptops are similar. The best thing I would think (if you haven't already done this) is open the laptop as much as possible. Take the back cover off, and, depending on how modular the laptop is, take as many parts out as you can and dry them individually (battery, wifi card, HDD, etc). On some laptops this is pretty easy, on others, next to impossible.
> 
> https://www.gazelle.com/thehorn/wp-...9BFae-J6GCLCt2MOucPPd1mVuCoti8GUp3QdFVKgsYDuU


I'm at this moment standing in line to pick it up from my local micro center. It needs a new keyboard.

Wearing my Azores. Been a while.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Mjsusc (Jan 29, 2020)

.


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## Mjsusc (Jan 29, 2020)

Odin is nice!


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> Because why wouldn't my wife buy Skipjack tuna?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


C'mon, Doc...you can spoil your lady and splurge on the solid white. ;-)


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> I wonder how long until someone reports that they've tried baking the watch in an oven to loosen the bezel insert...


I didn't have a heat gun when doing the bezel inserts for my Orient divers and actually ended up letting the entire bezel heat up on top of a toaster oven. It worked great, but that was a completely different situation since the bezel was removed from the watch. Not possible with the NTH bezel inserts since you need to keep the bezel attached to the case.

But it does work well if you ever need to do it with another insert on a bezel you can remove from the case. It's easy and heats evenly.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Sauro Lume Bloom


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## SupraManZ (Feb 2, 2014)

1st question, will these NTH bezel inserts fit my SKX?

2nd question, will the Devil Ray, be released in Orange again?

I don't need the 1st question answered 🙂


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

SupraManZ said:


> 1st question, will these NTH bezel inserts fit my SKX?
> 
> 2nd question, will the Devil Ray, be released in Orange again?
> 
> I don't need the 1st question answered &#55357;&#56898;


Then the answer to your as one question is no. No Orange, at least for now. Black, white or blue.

I hate to be that guy... But the new DRs are listed on the NTH website. "Coming Soon".


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Vails finest wo......... sorry... Tikuna getting some wrist time today.

Edit: so with the rain picking up I decided today was more of a Beads of Poop type of day.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Oughtn't it be called a "droplets of poop" bracelet?


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Funny/sad story. Earlier today I was working on our new carport. Its going to be a heavy steel construction with solar panels on the roof. I was cutting and processing the pieces all while wearing the Näcken. Later only removed it while I was welding.

Fast forward in the afternoon and I was doing a photoshoot on the sofa. Watch slipped, tiles met -> crystal cracked.  Although very shallow you can feel it with the fingernail. Turns out the wrist is the "safest" place for a watch to be :roll:

View attachment gfdf.jpg


And a few moments before

View attachment gfasss.jpg


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## SupraManZ (Feb 2, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> SupraManZ said:
> 
> 
> > 1st question, will these NTH bezel inserts fit my SKX?
> ...


Brah, I know it's not included in the current release, that's why I'm asking. Let me rephrase, "are there plans to re-release the Devil Ray in the orange dial in the future?"


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> I've worked in bricks-and-mortar.
> 
> I think people have a higher propensity to act the fool in electronic comms than they would standing there, facing someone.
> 
> ...


I'd think it's related to the level of effort involved by the fool. It takes little effort to send an email, even compared to Googling and reading through search results. But getting in the car and driving to the store takes significantly more effort. Only a genuine fool would do that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Funny/sad story. Earlier today I was working on our new carport. Its going to be a heavy steel construction with solar panels on the roof. I was cutting and processing the pieces all while wearing the Näcken. Later only removed it while I was welding.
> 
> Fast forward in the afternoon and I was doing a photoshoot on the sofa. Watch slipped, tiles met -> crystal cracked.  Although very shallow you can feel it with the fingernail. Turns out the wrist is the "safest" place for a watch to be :roll:
> 
> ...


We have replacement crystals. Hit us with an email to [email protected], and we can sort you out. I assume you have a watchmaker with a crystal press? If not, we can probably make some arrangements for you, within the EU. I'm sure I can get Kaj at Serious to help out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SupraManZ said:


> Brah, I know it's not included in the current release, that's why I'm asking. Let me rephrase, "are there plans to re-release the Devil Ray in the orange dial in the future?"


Fair question. I'm afraid I don't have a definitive answer. But, if it helps, I can offer an explanation with some detail...

Because of how the industry has been since last summer (which is to say, "slow"), and especially in light of the economic slowdown associated with covid 19, I'm not looking too far ahead of what's right in front of me.

We've got those 3 colors (black, white, and blue) planned for the next DR release, and I promise, I'm not sitting on any surprise colorways or special editions. It's just those three.

Then we've got the 2K1 Subs going into production now, for delivery in the early fall (~4 months from now).

Beyond that, I don't know what we'll be making or when, or what versions. It really depends on what happens over the next 4-6 months, and what the landscape looks like when some of the dust settles.

I will say this - orange isn't a great color when it comes to sales. It was the weakest seller among the first four original DR colorways. The first DevilRay production was the last time I did pre-orders before starting production on a new model, and it was the last time I asked my factory to produce each version in odd-ball numbers, according to how well they sold in pre-order.

I can't (or won't, take your pick) do that any more. I'm just telling my factory to make everything in increments of 25-50, because that's what works best for them, and keeps me from being too big a pain in their a$$. I wouldn't make 25 orange DR's right now, and I'm not sure when I'll be able to rationalize making them, if ever.

If I was a betting man (and in fact, I am), my bet would be that after the 2K1 Subs, the most obvious thing to do would be more of the 40mm Subs, for delivery late this year or early next (most likely early next).

After that, maybe we'll produce the updated Tropics (Antiles / Azores) we've been working on, or maybe more of the 2K1 Subs, or more of the DevilRay, or something else entirely, because I've had some ideas about some other models we might make, but just haven't had the time to work on them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

caktaylor said:


> I'd think it's related to the level of effort involved by the fool. It takes little effort to send an email, even compared to Googling and reading through search results. But getting in the car and driving to the store takes significantly more effort. Only a genuine fool would do that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perhaps it's effort-related, but I've seen enough people acting the fool in stores or restaurants to know that it isn't limited to online.

I recently saw an old lady absolutely brow-beating some poor sap working behind the prescription pickup counter at the local pharmacy. From what I could gather, she had a semi-legit complaint, but she was going absolutely overboard with her reaction, and the ton of $hlt she was dumping on this kid, who didn't create the problem, and couldn't fix it.

I've got nothing against old ladies, and to date, I've never told one to shut her yap and move out, but the way she was going off on this kid made me think someone ought to. She was way out of line.

---

My uncle owned a men's clothing store (where I worked between college semesters) in the Southern Bronx, a low-income area immortalized in the 1981 movie "Fort Apache, the Bronx" (some of the scenes were shot on the street where his store was located). One of the best learning experiences of my life came when one of his customers tried to return a dress shirt - one of those that comes folded up, with a dozen pins, cardboard inserts, sealed in plastic, etc.

My uncle had an in-store tailor who could measure any customer, and he had plenty of sample dress shirts to try on before making a purchase. Before any customer could check out with one of those shirts, they were informed the store policy was that there were no returns once the shirt was opened, unfolded, all the pins out, etc, for what should be obvious reasons. Every customer was advised to get measured and try on a sample shirt first.

Yet the guy had done just that - opened it, and most likely worn it to an event the night before, then tried to return it, saying it was the wrong size, when in fact, he probably only needed it for that one night. My uncle knew he was full of $hlt - he told the guy to put the shirt on, in the store, so he could see how it didn't fit, but the guy refused.

Apparently the guy was a repeat customer, and knew my uncle by name. He stood there in the store, holding the shirt, badgering and pleading with my uncle to accept the return, but my uncle simply wouldn't have it. This went on for at least 10 minutes, but at the end, the guy left with the shirt.

My uncle and I talked about it later. Probably like many people here and elsewhere (including many business owners), I didn't see the point. Why not just take the shirt back? Is the cost of that shirt worth losing a customer? Would that story really lead others to likewise try to return worn items (which we knew for sure, people do try)?

He said, "Everyone in the store was watching - customers, and employees - and they'll all take advantage if they think they can. If I buckle to that guy, everyone will look for a way to rob me blind. You watch, he'll be back."

Sure enough, the guy did come back, about two weeks later, and pretended like it never happened.

My uncle's store was the cleanest, best-lit, most well-run store of its kind in that neighborhood. He paid top dollar for a talented window-dresser (the guys who dress and stage the mannequins in the store's display windows). He had a burly security guard at the door. He sold quality goods at fair prices. He offered in-store tailoring and layaway. He stocked men's and boy's sizes, with good variety. And he spoke fluent Spanish.

Where else was that guy going to go?


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## Champ18 (Jun 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Perhaps it's effort-related, but I've seen enough people acting the fool in stores or restaurants to know that it isn't limited to online.


You uncle sounds a lot like the way my Grandfather was. I'll never forget seeing him chase a guy out of his lawnmower business. Actually chasing him out. He always said, "You don't want every customer. Only the good ones."

Later in life I was managing a "Succesories" store. Yeah, one of those ridiculous things with business motivational quotes stuck inside every size over-priced picture frame you could imagine. I learned a couple things from that experience. 1) Some people become outright demons the closer you get to Christmas. 2) My Grandfather was right.

Some crazy lady started complaining about a smudge behind the glass on an item she wanted to purchase. Of course it was the only one left. So I took it apart and carefully cleaned it right there at the front counter. She inspected it and claimed the smudge was still there. So I opened it and cleaned it again. This time she actually accused me of only ACTING like I was cleaning it. Mind you, the line behind her was growing. I politely told her that she was not obligated to buy the product if she was not satisfied. She didn't like that. Things descended rapidly when she got indignant and pointed to the stupidest poster we had on the wall. You might guess what it said....... "The customer is always right."
Biggest load of sh%$ ever claimed, btw. Anyway, I was done. So I thanked her for pointing it out to me and calmly walked over to where that poster was and removed it from the wall. At this point my assistant (a friend I had grown up with) saw where this was going and quickly jumped in to ask me to "grab something from the stock room". I caught his hint and redirected my path. As I was leaving I DID manage to catch the lady going full Karen to the guy behind her only to have him reply, "Actually, we all kinda think you're being a b!*#$." That was a huge relief.

Last year I was able to recall that situation as I witnessed another Karen berating staff for under-filling her over-sized coffee mug. She was relentless. But this time I was the one standing in line as it grew behind her. Once my food was up I turned to her and politely (in tone anyway) suggested that she try shutting the Fu$& up and letting the staff take care of the rest of us. For a time I was worried that I should have kept my tongue lest I make things worse for the employees. But when I shared the story with the sandwich guy next door he lit up like a Christmas tree and actually came out from behind the counter to High-five me. "On behalf of those of us in the service business, let me Thank you!".

Sometimes you gotta take a stand. It's not the immediate moment that pays off, but a good portion of the future.


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

docvail said:


> Perhaps it's effort-related, but I've seen enough people acting the fool in stores or restaurants to know that it isn't limited to online.
> 
> I recently saw an old lady absolutely brow-beating some poor sap working behind the prescription pickup counter at the local pharmacy. From what I could gather, she had a semi-legit complaint, but she was going absolutely overboard with her reaction, and the ton of $hlt she was dumping on this kid, who didn't create the problem, and couldn't fix it.
> 
> ...


People like that need to take a breath, calm down...._and pet the kitty_


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15127073
> 
> Vails finest wo......... sorry... Tikuna getting some wrist time today.
> 
> ...


Great capture!

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Saturday afternoon with the Oberon II.










Sent from a van down by the river...


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work, yet again mounted on top of Erika's.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Champ18 said:


> "The customer is always right."
> Biggest load of sh%$ ever claimed, btw.


Boy oh boy ain't that the truth. To go off on another tangent, yet still stay kinda related to the topic...

After about 15 years as an electrician, I've learned pretty much everyone can be a Karen. But to be honest, homeowners(most of y'all), business owners(some of y'all I'm sure) and general managers are just as dumb and Karen-ish as everybody else. Especially when it comes to getting what they want, but don't think they should have to pay for it. As a rule of thumb, I build to print. Every time, without fail. Print spec is the bible. You'll never get less than what's there and agreed upon at the outset. And if you want more, you've got lots of time to bring that to my attention.

Countless times I've been in (sometimes heated) arguments with owners and GMs about why their required change is going to cost them through the nose. Sure.... I can relocate this or that for you, hell, I'll install it on your forehead if you want it there, but you're going to have to pay for it. The wall is closed up, your fancy tile from Italy all over it, the device is there and actually working right now. So to move it that 5-10 feet you want will require not just me, but the framers and sheet rockers, the tile guys, and all the new material needed to accomplish said task. So expect it to cost you around $XXXX. Sure, there's "cheaper" work arounds that we can accomplish... But this is your brand new building, you really want the "make it work" solution?

They'll whine and cry and moan. Tell you they've already spent all this money(varying from the low thousand to the multi millions) trying to make it seem like they're entitled to this "freebie". And I'm proud to say they never win (at least not with me). They'll either change their mind and decide they don't need or want the change, or bite the bullet and drop the dime. Most of the time they don't want the change anymore.

Moral of the story, the customer is usually always wrong. Even when it's you or me.

Secondary moral, if you're building a new home or business, be on site to look at progress A LOT. And wear your "imagine the future" helmet. Because we're more than happy to indulge your changes and alterations, just do it before it's all finished. It's cheaper, sometimes it won't even change the cost.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Bloom said:


> Saturday afternoon with the Oberon II.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What happened to the waffle dial? 

Looks great on that leather strap!


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> Funny/sad story. Earlier today I was working on our new carport. Its going to be a heavy steel construction with solar panels on the roof. I was cutting and processing the pieces all while wearing the Näcken. Later only removed it while I was welding.
> 
> Fast forward in the afternoon and I was doing a photoshoot on the sofa. Watch slipped, tiles met -> crystal cracked.  Although very shallow you can feel it with the fingernail. Turns out the wrist is the "safest" place for a watch to be :roll:
> 
> ...


Oof, that sucks. Luckily, I'm sure Doc's got you covered.

I wish that I could say that I wore my NTH when doing everyman work in the garage or the yard, so I'd have memories of satisfying accomplishments to reflect on as I appraised the battle scars on my watch years from now.

But I don't. When it's time to get my hands dirty, I swap out for the G-Shock Rangeman.

Still, with all this talk of replacement bezels, I'm seriously considering picking up a spare for each of my subs just to have on hand for when something like this goes down. Otherwise, With my luck, by the time I need one Chris will have deleted all his social media accounts and moved to Belize.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Champ18 said:


> "The customer is always right."
> Biggest load of sh%$ ever claimed, btw.


I've read that the original saying, coined by some department-store magnate, was in fact, "The customer is KING!"

It may seem like a distinction without a difference, but I beg to differ.

I read the history of the saying, the guy, and the store. The point wasn't to make it clear to employees that the customer should get whatever he/she wants, however unreasonable. The point was to create an enjoyable, luxurious shopping experience, with a level of convenience which would make the customer feel like royalty.

Customer experience counts for a lot.

When I'm dealing with those patience-trying situations, I try to find the balance between solving the "problem" for the customer and holding the line on how the business is supposed to run, and serve all customers.

Frankly, the focus isn't on concierge pre-sale support. That's what John Keil and my other retailers are supposed to do. Our pre-sale support is pretty light, as I believe it should be. The website has the answer to nearly every conceivable question (I've made sure of it - anything we've been asked more than twice, ever, is in there). The focus is more on making sure we can deliver outstanding post-sale support.

This is why many of my struggles recently, with the bezel inserts, came from folks who couldn't accept the self-service business model I've built (i.e., find what you want in the store, which should be easy enough, and buy it - we'll be here to help if there are any problems after the sale).

Something that's been on my mind since opening up those insert sales is the mis-match / mis-fit which exists between when customers would or would not want on-call / on-demand / real-time pre-sale support, and when they would rather make use of a self-service model.

For example (exhibit A), would you rather check in for your flight online and print your boarding pass at home, or do it at the airport ticket counter, with a live body helping you? If I didn't give you this specific example, most people's knee-jerk reaction would be to say we always want a live body helping us, rather than having to help ourselves with no live support. But I guarantee, none of us would prefer the counter over the self-check-in online. That's the one thing airlines typically get right.

On the other hand (exhibit B), I can't count the number of times I've cursed the heavens while trying to make an online purchase of something complex, and could have used some basic questions answered, but there was no support to be found. I bought my external monitor on Amazon, the specs said something like "HDMI connection optional". I wanted one with an HDMI connection, so I bought it.

I received it, and - wait for it - no HDMI connection. Apparently what I should have looked for was "HDMI *compatible*", and "optional" seems to mean I got the model without HDMI as an option. I mean...why even put that on the specs, if it's likely to confuse people, and you're not going to offer support, nor even show a close-up image of the input ports?

It seems like most/many businesses are moving more and more towards a self-service model for delivering products and services to customers. I'm not sure I like it, even though, I make use of it too. It can't be a one-size-fits-all approach that works for every product or service, in every situation. Sometimes, you kinda need someone to tell you how hot the hot wings are, and online ordering just won't cut it.

---

Anyhoo...epilogue on my laptop...such a nightmare...

Sitting it in rice overnight apparently *is* a myth, also according to the tech wiz at Micro Center. The Wiz also told me that my laptop, or ones like it, usually has/have a little tray under the keyboard to capture liquids, and shunt them out the front of the machine, protecting the delicate innards.

Prior to bringing it in, I was able to get the machine powered on, and programs opened, but typing was impossible, so I was hopeful that he was right, and all it needed was a new keyboard, which won't be ready for a few days. So when I picked it back up yesterday, I also bought a $4 external keyboard.

Get it home, and it took for - wait for it - ever to boot up. And when it did, even with the external keyboard, I could tell it was screwed. I had to go back to Micro Center, and ask the Wiz if he totally disassembled it, and/or powered it up, or just looked at it and decided all it needed a new keyboard, without any further investigation.

If you guessed "no tear-down / no investigation", you're paying attention. I wasn't happy, at all, but I kept my cool.

So, today, I went back there (because I didn't take the machine in when I went back the second time yesterday) to drop it off. I was told that it would be about a week before I got it back, which is way too long to be without my work machine.

So I asked, if I bought a new one, how quickly could they transfer the data over to the new one (something I had to do the last time I bought a new machine, because the old one wasn't a solid-state drive). They couldn't even give me an estimate - ugh.

Instead, the guy took pity on me. He popped out the hard drive from the old machine, and sold me a USB-thingy to connect it to a new machine. The new machine can be returned for refund within 15 days, if it turns out my old machine can be salvaged. In the meantime, I have another laptop I can work on, and all the files from my old machine.

Pretty solid service, IMO. I thought, these guys are cool, for tech geeks.

So I mosey over to checkout, where, of course (given the topic at hand), some jackwagon is loudly berating a kid at the counter, because the stuff he's returning was crap, and didn't work, and he wants a refund, and they sold him the extended warranty (why bother mentioning it?), blah, blah, blah.

I went out of my way to stare the guy down as I approached, and as I was standing there getting checked out. My wife says I emanate aggressive and negative energy sometimes. Hell yeah, I do. That's my super-power. I can turn it on or off, and dial it all the way up, if I want, which I did, and aimed it all at this guy beating up on the kid at the register.

Call me an a$$hole if you want. The guy dialed it back, a lot, and seemed to shrink half an inch as I was looking at him.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> Oof, that sucks. Luckily, I'm sure Doc's got you covered.
> 
> I wish that I could say that I wore my NTH when doing everyman work in the garage or the yard, so I'd have memories of satisfying accomplishments to reflect on as I appraised the battle scars on my watch years from now.
> 
> ...


I am mostly (maybe completely) finished with my collection (60s/70s GoD Seiko). The collection is small but I also want to wear them. My daily is the NTH and the only modern mechanical one I have.

I like the idea of wabi sabi and don't mind the case scratches. Wouldn't want that on the vintage Seikos since they are mostly polished surfaces and it looks awful. :-d

From the other day

View attachment sagd.jpg


Favorite case

View attachment 2.jpg


Favorite movement

View attachment 3.jpg


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Doc - for future computer woes make the drive to West Chester Computer Doctors. I'm not affiliated, just a happy customer. Really good people there with far more experience than the people at the chain repair services.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> ---
> 
> Anyhoo...epilogue on my laptop...such a nightmare...
> 
> ...


I don't know if you already do it but its important to have backups on a separate, preferably external hard disk.

There is dedicated software that once set-up can do them periodically for you in the background.

I am usually labelled paranoid when I tell people about how important that is but the chance to lose invaluable memories or months of work is always present.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> I am mostly (maybe completely) finished with my collection (60s/70s GoD Seiko). The collection is small but I also want to wear them. My daily is the NTH and the only modern mechanical one I have.
> 
> I like the idea of wabi sabi and don't mind the case scratches. Wouldn't want that on the vintage Seikos since they are mostly polished surfaces and it looks awful. :-d
> 
> ...


1) You just made me Google Wabi Sabi. I get it now.

2) Holy crap, what are those delicious looking things?

I've posted a few times here about my sourdough baking over the last year. I brought home some of my Brother-in-law's starter last summer, and I've been baking on a weekly basis since then.

















I've gotten halfway decent at it, and I'm always looking for good ideas to take my bread to the next level. For the record, I DO wear my NTH when baking.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> I don't know if you already do it but its important to have backups on a separate, preferably external hard disk.
> 
> There is dedicated software that once set-up can do them periodically for you in the background.
> 
> I am usually labelled paranoid when I tell people about how important that is but the chance to lose invaluable memories or months of work is always present.


I almost lost years of family photos when a HD got corrupted. Fortunately there was a software program that enabled me to recover nearly all of them, but ever since then, I backup to the cloud AND a second hard drive. Three total copies of everything.

On the "Customer is right" thing, I'll never forget when Jamie Dimon came to town right after Chase Bank bought the bank I was working for, and he said at this town hall for new employees, "Sometimes you have to fire the customer." That was a revelation. Being given that autonomy changed the game for me and freed me up to stop spending 90% of my time on the 1% who were difficult, and spend that time pursuing bigger, better clients.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

SupraManZ said:


> 1st question, will these NTH bezel inserts fit my SKX?


Not without modification.

Outside diameter of NTH bezels is a hair smaller, but decent fit. However, they are wider by 1mm or so, which means a diameter 2mm smaller than SKX, doesn't clear SKX crystal. You could shave it down to fit, but you'd end up with raw metal showing on the inside, crystal edge of the insert.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> 1) You just made me Google Wabi Sabi. I get it now.
> 
> 2) Holy crap, what are those delicious looking things?
> 
> ...


"Pesto e prosciutto" - basically inside the twisted pastry and greased with egg, ~30 ish minutes in the oven.

Wish I was skilled enough for sourdough baking, that's great!


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> "Pesto e prosciutto" - basically inside the twisted pastry and greased with egg, ~30 ish minutes in the oven.
> 
> Wish I was skilled enough for sourdough baking, that's great!


I gotta try that. It looks great.

Sourdough is less about skill than patience. Slow and cold; you can't rush it. I make my dough, let the yeast work in the fridge for a full day, then form it into a loaf and put it back in the fridge to give it another full day for its second rise. Beyond that, there's not a whole lot to it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

It's a white dial kinda day


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

We've been making a lot of sourdough over here, too:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I don't know if you already do it but its important to have backups on a separate, preferably external hard disk.
> 
> There is dedicated software that once set-up can do them periodically for you in the background.
> 
> I am usually labelled paranoid when I tell people about how important that is but the chance to lose invaluable memories or months of work is always present.


I have all my files sync'd to the cloud, but I'm kind of old-school, when it comes to preferring to have my files on my machine.

After it was all done yesterday, it was obvious that I could have skipped the five minutes talking to the guy about a data transfer from machine to machine, both because my files are backed up in the cloud, and also because he was able to just pop the SSD drive out of my old machine, and I was able to connect it to the new machine by USB.

I've been lucky so far. Even though I spilled a drink on my current (last?) machine, and the one before that just completely crapped out on me - like, it just died - I haven't lost any files. The time spent getting and setting up a new machine has only added up to 3-4 days of lost productivity in the last 3-4 years.

PS - I saw your email about the crystal. Haven't had a chance to respond yet, but I will, ASAP.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> SupraManZ said:
> 
> 
> > 1st question, will these NTH bezel inserts fit my SKX?
> ...


@jelliottz discovered an SKX031 bezel can be seated into the bezel assembly of the NTH Sub's case, without modification, though it's not a perfect fit. I believe the inner diameter is slightly larger, creating a small gap.

If it helps (and, because I anticipated the question), we added the NTH Subs' insert dimensions (inner and outer diameter) to the site, out to 4 decimal places.

But, be aware - unlike many bezel inserts, particularly Seiko's, which are flat on one or both sides (importantly, the bottom), the Subs' inserts have a sloped inner and outer surface.

And - while they're not crazy-thick, the inserts are thicker than the typical aluminum insert, and may not be close enough in thickness to many other bezels (like Seiko's) to make them very compatible.

You're not just trying to match the inner and outer diameter. You're also trying to match the thickness, and inner slope, if not both inner and outer slope.

And no, we're not going to provide all those dimensions. The inserts were made to fit the NTH Subs. I guarantee they'll fit the NTH Subs.

I'm not going to get wrapped around the axle trying to help guys who are just trying to figure out if our inserts will fit some other watch we didn't produce, which is one of the reasons I hesitated to make them available for purchase.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Doc - for future computer woes make the drive to West Chester Computer Doctors. I'm not affiliated, just a happy customer. Really good people there with far more experience than the people at the chain repair services.


The guys at Micro Center are pretty good, probably good enough for my infrequent, not all that intensive needs, and they're literally five minutes from my house.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

SupraManZ said:


> 1st question, will these NTH bezel inserts fit my SKX?
> 
> 2nd question, will the Devil Ray, be released in Orange again?
> 
> I don't need the 1st question answered &#55357;&#56898;


SKX007 - no. SKX013 - maybe? IIRC the 013 and the Sub share a very similar bezel size. Edit: Apparently it must've been the SKX031 I was thinking of, not the 013.

Re: the sloped bezel, most of the 3rd party ceramic bezels for Seiko are like that too. Hardlex crystals are flat, so they don't match. That's where the double dome DLW or Cystal Times sapphire comes in. If you want to stick an NTH bezel on a Seiko diver, you'd probably want to get one of those as well.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Or a divertite. If you cant change a crystal, you haven't tried.










Also, if you're going to the trouble of changing inserts, do yourselves a favor and take the new one down a hair. Let that crystal edge breathe a bit










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> I have all my files sync'd to the cloud, but I'm kind of old-school, when it comes to preferring to have my files on my machine.
> 
> After it was all done yesterday, it was obvious that I could have skipped the five minutes talking to the guy about a data transfer from machine to machine, both because my files are backed up in the cloud, and also because he was able to just pop the SSD drive out of my old machine, and I was able to connect it to the new machine by USB.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear that.

FYI: I work on a computer at home with 2 screens but my wife prefers a laptop. Recently she bought a "laptop stand". This helps with the screen position relative to the eyes and might also add some security against spilling drinks.

Random internet photo, they come in all sorts of shapes, fixed and adjustable.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dp


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: the sloped bezel, most of the 3rd party ceramic bezels for Seiko are like that too. Hardlex crystals are flat, so they don't match. That's where the double dome DLW or Cystal Times sapphire comes in. If you want to stick an NTH bezel on a Seiko diver, you'd probably want to get one of those as well.


Same thing with aftermarket bezel inserts for the Orient Ray 2/Mako 2/Mako USA 2 divers. The funny thing is: the original bezel & inserts for the Mako USA II made it sit higher than the sapphire crystal, but the same bezel & insert on the Ray 2 made it flush with the mineral crystal. Same cases, same bezels, same bezel inserts, but I guess two different dimensions in the flat crystals (mineral & sapphire) between the two models. A flat bezel insert will still sit just a hair above the sapphire crystal on the Mako USA II.

I actually like when the crystal sits below the bezel (especially with mineral/harlex) because I feel like the bezel will take the bulk of the wear/scratches/damage inflicted on the watch. It'll add a nicer looking patina to a metal insert than scratches do on a crystal, and if you drop the watch (and it lands flat on a surface) it should protect the crystal. Even if a ceramic insert breaks, it's less work to fix than a broken crystal.

I have a sloped ceramic insert on one Mako USA II that leaves quite a gap which I'm fine with, a sloped ceramic insert on my Ray 2 which leaves a gap but is closer to flush which I like, and another flat ceramic insert on a different Mako USA II which is also almost flush but still leaves that gap (bezel higher than crystal). Couldn't be happier with all of my Orient mods.

Extra embedded photo (for those who don't click links) of dat gap on the Ray Raven II:









And about the issue of having a sloped insert that won't sit completely flat on a bezel, you just apply the adhesive to the edge where it does sit flat and it should be fine as long as you're not trying to pull it off with pliers.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> I've read that the original saying, coined by some department-store magnate, was in fact, "The customer is KING!"
> 
> It may seem like a distinction without a difference, but I beg to differ.
> 
> ...


Holy WOT...I get why you guys hate me now. Doc even formatted it nicely, and I still couldn't get through it.

STOP TROLLING ON YOUR OWN THREAD, DOC! This is thread for bread only now. ;-)


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> Same thing with aftermarket bezel inserts for the Orient Ray 2/Mako 2/Mako USA 2 divers. The funny thing is: the original bezel & inserts for the Mako USA II made it sit higher than the sapphire crystal, but the same bezel & insert on the Ray 2 made it flush with the mineral crystal. Same cases, same bezels, same bezel inserts, but I guess two different dimensions in the flat crystals (mineral & sapphire) between the two models. A flat bezel insert will still sit just a hair above the sapphire crystal on the Mako USA II.
> 
> I actually like when the crystal sits below the bezel (especially with mineral/harlex) because I feel like the bezel will take the bulk of the wear/scratches/damage inflicted on the watch. It'll add a nicer looking patina to a metal insert than scratches do on a crystal, and if you drop the watch (and it lands flat on a surface) it should protect the crystal. Even if a ceramic insert breaks, it's less work to fix than a broken crystal.
> 
> ...


That look isn't for me. With a sloped bezel, I like one continuous arc down from the top of the dome to the outer edge of the bezel insert, so that the two together look of a piece. That does put the crystal out front, but if I was worried about that, I wouldn't own an Oris Diver's 65 with its bubble crystal. Sapphire can certainly be scratched, but it isn't easy. So far the only time I've managed to do it is when I whacked my SKX into the bottom of a bar counter when I was getting up off the bar stool. The Diver's 65 has taken several more minor knocks against door frames, the sides of tables and the like, and I'm actually glad that the crystal is taking those hits instead of the D65's relatively fragile and scratch-prone aluminum insert.

What bugs me most though are the huge beveled edges that the stock SKX crystal and the standard 3rd party sapphire crystals have. It creates a doubling effect of the hour makers, gets dust and dirt trapped between the insert and crystal, and makes the dial look smaller, which Seiko diver dials don't need. They are already small relative to the overall case size. I'm glad that DLW, CT, and others are now offering "no-bevel" crystals, which solve all of those problems and frankly also make the watch look like a much higher quality piece.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> That look isn't for me. With a sloped bezel, I like one continuous arc down from the top of the dome to the outer edge of the bezel insert, so that the two together look of a piece. That does put the crystal out front, but if I was worried about that, I wouldn't own an Oris Diver's 65 with its bubble crystal. Sapphire can certainly be scratched, but it isn't easy. So far the only time I've managed to do it is when I whacked my SKX into the bottom of a bar counter when I was getting up off the bar stool. The Diver's 65 has taken several more minor knocks against door frames, the sides of tables and the like, and I'm actually glad that the crystal is taking those hits instead of the D65's relatively fragile and scratch-prone aluminum insert.
> 
> What bugs me most though are the huge beveled edges that the stock SKX crystal and the standard 3rd party sapphire crystals have. It creates a doubling effect of the hour makers, gets dust and dirt trapped between the insert and crystal, and makes the dial look smaller, which Seiko diver dials don't need. They are already small relative to the overall case size. I'm glad that DLW, CT, and others are now offering "no-bevel" crystals, which solve all of those problems and frankly also make the watch look like a much higher quality piece.
> 
> View attachment 15134255


Those beveled edges do create that effect; I know what you mean. But while sapphire is hard to scratch, the harlex and mineral crystals that come on some Seikos and Orients are pretty easy to ding and scratch up. For the sake of simplicity, I'd rather just mod a bezel and insert over swapping a crystal which entails quite a bit more work. Luckily I've got enough (borderline too many) watches with varying bezel and crystal combinations. 

That's a great looking SKX mod. Got a picture of it from the front? I'm getting vintage Seamaster/Orthos Commander/NTH Odin vibes from what I can see of the dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Glad to hear that.
> 
> FYI: I work on a computer at home with 2 screens but my wife prefers a laptop. Recently she bought a "laptop stand". This helps with the screen position relative to the eyes and might also add some security against spilling drinks.
> 
> ...


I have one. It's not as sexy as that one, but it works well enough.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> That's a great looking SKX mod. Got a picture of it from the front? I'm getting vintage Seamaster/Orthos Commander/NTH Odin vibes from what I can see of the dial.


Thanks. It was intended to be a hybrid between various Omega Seamasters: SM300 coin-edge bezel (in black which makes the SKX seem a little less tall) SMP ceramic insert, Planet Ocean dial. I used the SARB059 dial for the latter instead of a third party dial, because I think most of those are kinda blah looking. Also, none of them have the SARB059's gorgeous super deep green sunburst. The handset was originally Dagaz Planet Ocean hands, which fit what I was going for, but I didn't love the look of. Minute hand was too skinny. Changed those to the current Zodiac SSW style hands, which are fine, but still a bit thin, and the lume is weak compared to the hour markers. Will be changing again to Seiko Transocean hands sooner or later, which I think should be _finally_ the end of the mod process for this watch, so then I can focus fully on my next Samurai-Jade Monster mod.

On wrist today on my favorite leather strap for this watch. Still annoyed that Chris Ward just abruptly discontinued all of these. If I had known, I would've bought reserves.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Thanks. It was intended to be a hybrid between various Omega Seamasters: SM300 coin-edge bezel (in black which makes the SKX seem a little less tall) SMP ceramic insert, Planet Ocean dial. I used the SARB059 dial for the latter instead of a third party dial, because I think most of those are kinda blah looking. Also, none of them have the SARB059's gorgeous super deep green sunburst. The handset was originally Dagaz Planet Ocean hands, which fit what I was going for, but I didn't love the look of. Minute hand was too skinny. Changed those to the current Zodiac SSW style hands, which are fine, but still a bit thin, and the lume is weak compared to the hour markers. Will be changing again to Seiko Transocean hands sooner or later, which I think should be _finally_ the end of the mod process for this watch, so then I can focus fully on my next Samurai-Jade Monster mod.
> 
> On wrist today on my favorite leather strap for this watch. Still annoyed that Chris Ward just abruptly discontinued all of these. If I had known, I would've bought reserves.
> 
> View attachment 15134669


I'm loving the finish on the case & crown. What would you call it? Bead blasted?

That dial is great too. Did you have a spare SARB059 that you got the dial from, find a spare dial by itself, or is that a SARB059 case that you changed the case finish on (along with the bezel and hands)? I figured it was an aftermarket dial in an custom SKX case since I've seen quite a few AM dials lately that are still branded Seiko, but it's even better that it's not in my opinion.

As for the hands I agree that they're maybe a bit thin, but definitely a bit short also. I don't know how you feel about the Mako/Mako 2 or Mako USA II/Kamasu hands, but I think they'd look great on this mod. I think even the stock SARB059 hands would look good on it.

Mako/Mako2:









Mako USA II/Kamasu:









I can only imagine how cool a Samurai Jade Monster mod would be from how it sounds! Post some pics when you get it finished or have the parts together. I'm definitely interested.

I've never tried a Christopher Ward strap. What do you like about it? The material or something else?


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I'm only kinda kidding...

Anyways. Heres a lume pic.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> I'm loving the finish on the case & crown. What would you call it? Bead blasted?
> 
> That dial is great too. Did you have a spare SARB059 that you got the dial from, find a spare dial by itself, or is that a SARB059 case that you changed the case finish on (along with the bezel and hands)? I figured it was an aftermarket dial in an custom SKX case since I've seen quite a few AM dials lately that are still branded Seiko, but it's even better that it's not in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Yep. It's a factory SKX, with nearly all the original parts gone except for the 7S26 movement (black date-wheel swap) and caseback. Glass bead blasted to a Damasko style matte gray, because the SKX's brushing looks horrible, and BBing it covers all that up. The dial is real deal genuine Seiko, purchased from Watchpartsplaza. SARB059s are extremely rare these days, and it'll cost you at least $850 to buy one now. Definitely not worth doing that just to then make it look like a modded SKX, or harvest its dial. That being said, I did buy a Jade Monster just to harvest its dial and movement, which is still pretty crazy. I have WIS disease.

The Orient hands are nice, but it's definitely going to be Transocean hands - mostly because I already have them here, just need to do the swap. An earlier iteration of this watch had SARB059 hands in it. I still have them, and they're going into the Jade Samurai mod because I don't like the Monster/Samurai "rocket" handset. The SARB059 dial/hands together I think works better as a field watch than a diver. I'll definitely post pics of it when it's finally done.

To keep this from being a total thread hijacking, the Chris Ward strap issue is really a me problem. They have plenty of 20mm straps, and I highly recommend them for NTH owners looking to try something other than the bracelet. Their selection of 22mm straps is significantly larger though, which could be of interest to current or future Devil Ray owners. Nearly all of their straps have QR pins, which is a must have feature for me. I change straps on my watches constantly, and what takes a couple of minutes to do with regular spring bars and my Bergeon takes about 5 seconds with QR pins, with zero risk of scratching the lugs. Here's the me problem: CW straps are great, nicely made, comfortable, not outrageously expensive - particularly the shell cordovans. Nice straps with QR pins aren't exactly rare or unusual though.

What _are_ highly unusual are nice straps with QR pins sized correctly for my tiny Popsicle stick wrists. CW used to make those. Now they don't. Here's my collection of now completely irreplaceable CW short length straps. I should mention that the holes that look "off" at the top of the straps are the ones I punched in myself. I wasn't kidding about the tiny wrists.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Anyways. Heres a lume pic.
> View attachment 15134961


Now we need a pic in the light! I spot a couple of NTH Subs on the left and I think an IWC.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> To keep this from being a total thread hijacking, the Chris Ward strap issue is really a me problem. They have plenty of 20mm straps, and I highly recommend them for NTH owners looking to try something other than the bracelet. Their selection of 22mm straps is significantly larger though, which could be of interest to current or future Devil Ray owners. Nearly all of their straps have QR pins, which is a must have feature for me. I change straps on my watches constantly, and what takes a couple of minutes to do with regular spring bars and my Bergeon takes about 5 seconds with QR pins, with zero risk of scratching the lugs. Here's the me problem: CW straps are great, nicely made, comfortable, not outrageously expensive - particularly the shell cordovans. Nice straps with QR pins aren't exactly rare or unusual though.
> 
> What _are_ highly unusual are nice straps with QR pins sized correctly for my tiny Popsicle stick wrists. CW used to make those. Now they don't. Here's my collection of now completely irreplaceable CW short length straps. I should mention that the holes that look "off" at the top of the straps are the ones I punched in myself. I wasn't kidding about the tiny wrists.
> 
> View attachment 15135057


MAN'S GOT BANDS!

I just got onto QR straps. I purchased a Barton leather for a watch that came as only a head when I bought it. It was everyone's favorite lug width, 19mm ;-) I love the QR ability, but I'm not super impressed by the quality of leather; it's really rigid for a new leather band. Has anyone else had experience with Barton straps? Maybe I just got an old one that had been sitting around stiffening in the Amazon warehouse. :think:

I feel like I should buy a CW strap now that you posted this (if they even make them in stupid, uncommon sizes like 19mm). The Barton isn't terrible for the price, but I've owned much nicer leather straps in a similar price range from companies like DiModell, Eulit, & Fluco. And I know it may be another unpopular opinion (I know...I'm full of em), but since we're on the topic of straps I feel like Colareb is a bit overpriced.

Back to NTH...sort of  I have my Orthos Commander 300 posted for sale on another forum (because I "speed posted" here somehow by just being too active in the last month and posting comments that seemed "belligerent" to some even though they were my opinion; I understand how leaving bs comments like "nice watch" could be seen as speed posting, but I'm still not sure how spaced out I need to leave my comments that may not always be agreeable although they actually take time and thought so I don't get hit with a ban again). As you all know it's a great watch, but I just have too many! You know how it is.

I recently bought an Omega Seamaster, and it seems a bit repetitive to keep both it and the Orthos in the collection now. The Orthos is a solid watch and a better value. My Seamaster is just filling a different role in my collection than any of my other watches since it's a GMT, but the Commander 300 is still too similar to it to keep both around. It's in great shape (bracelet never used and still in plastic) and keeping fantastic time. Holla at me on here or on the other forum (that starts with an "R" and ends with "eddit") in case I get banned again for this now. Who knows...I wouldn't be surprised the way these forums work. They're here for us to have an open dialogue *as long as everyone agrees with what you say and you don't offend anyone or any company that may or may not sponsor the forums*. Much like "free speech" in the 21st century or "fair & unbiased reviews" from popular watch blogs. ;-)


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mgp123 said:


> MAN'S GOT BANDS!
> 
> I just got onto QR straps. I purchased a Barton leather for a watch that came as only a head when I bought it. It was everyone's favorite lug width, 19mm ;-) I love the QR ability, but I'm not super impressed by the quality of leather; it's really rigid for a new leather band. Has anyone else had experience with Barton straps? Maybe I just got an old one that had been sitting around stiffening in the Amazon warehouse. :think:
> 
> I feel like I should buy a CW strap now that you posted this (if they even make them in stupid, uncommon sizes like 19mm). The Barton isn't terrible for the price, but I've owned much nicer leather straps in a similar price range from companies like DiModell, Eulit, & Fluco. And I know it may be another unpopular opinion (I know...I'm full of em), but since we're on the topic of straps I feel like Colareb is a bit overpriced.


No 19mms unfortunately, only 20 and 22mm. Their torro brava 20mm straps I think would go very well with an NTH Sub (top left in my photo). The black one is a dark sort of charcoal gray/black, with a finish that's a little like a buffalo leather strap. Padded at the lug end, tapers down to a pretty thin ~2mm or so, so extremely flexible and comfortable, and didn't require much break-in from what I remember. It's a legacy product (still has the "Chr.Ward" logo on the buckle), so you have to go to the "all straps" page on their site to find them.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mgp123 said:


> Now we need a pic in the light! I spot a couple of NTH Subs on the left and I think an IWC.


No, no IWC. All affordables <$1k. Though I would love a Portugieser or an Aquatimer. I'll drop the dime on a PAM before I get an IWC though.

No longer at home, so heres what's in the box. Organized L to R by size.

Top L to R: NTH Nazario Sauro, Hamilton Khaki Air Race, Glycine Combat 6 Vintage, Gruppo Gamma Vanguard Bronze(on wrist today, Bulova Precisionist.

Bottom L to R: NTH Tikuna, Harbinger Marauder(the failed Watch Gang experiment before I learned to buy what I like, and before I learned about the watch world), Citizen Calandrier Eco-Drive(the first real watch I bought, a couple years before the addiction got me), Alpina Startimer Pilot Shadow Line, and the trusty G-Shock Mudmaster.

I need to quit buying affordables for a while, so I can get that PAM, lol. But I can't! I've got a Lüm-Tec 350M-2 on the way, I'm contemplating one of the new DRs, and I KNOW I'm gonna buy one of the new 2K1 Subs from Doc.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Thanks for the reply still! I did mistake that Harbinger Marauder for an IWC based off the lume. No offense, but I think it looks better in the dark. ;-) 



TheBearded said:


> I need to quit buying affordables for a while, so I can get that PAM, lol. But I can't! I've got a Lüm-Tec 350M-2 on the way, I'm contemplating one of the new DRs, and I KNOW I'm gonna buy one of the new 2K1 Subs from Doc.


I understand completely. I could consolidate my affordables and get a couple of more expensive watches, but then I'd have the issue of not being able to wear those watches as carefree as I do now. I'm keeping my Omega Seamaster in a safe with another Bucherer which is a family heirloom (my grandfather's watch that I cherish). The rest of the collection goes into the watch boxes. And nothing against affordables at all; I would buy a few more NTHs in a heartbeat. You get a lot for what you pay. The only issue I have with them is I run out of space and start to consider myself a hoarder!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mgp123 said:


> No offense, but I think it looks better in the dark


None taken. I literally knew nothing other than the difference between Auto/Quartz when I decided to give Watch Gang a spin. A one time failed experiment.

The Harbinger is the one watch I have that gets zero wrist time. Its in the watch box so I dont have an empty pillow, lol. It'll be demoted to a drawer when the Lüm-Tec gets here.


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

Someone mention lume?


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> The Harbinger is the one watch I have that gets zero wrist time. Its in the watch box so I dont have an empty pillow, lol. It'll be demoted to a drawer when the Lüm-Tec gets here.


Awwww...don't do that. Gift it or sell it to someone that likes it instead! It might not be your taste or mine, but I'm sure someone out there would like to have it. Much better for everyone if you do that instead of throwing it in a drawer.

I have a few watches that I've gifted over the years. Most of them lead to the person I gifted them to getting more into watches. If you feel that indifferent to it, then give it away and don't even worry about what happens to it. Some of the watches I gave away were eventually destroyed or lost by people who still didn't get into watches. But it still got more use than if I would have left it in a drawer, so I'm still okay with the decision.

Selling it for the low is also a good idea (maybe better), because then you know it'll go to someone who is at least a bit into watches.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Seeing as my heat gun is at work... this is currently just resting on top of the existing bezel.

I always felt the Sauro's blue hands were a lil' lonely. Whatchu guys think?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Seeing as my heat gun is at work... this is currently just resting on top of the existing bezel.
> 
> I always felt the Sauro's blue hands were a lil' lonely. Whatchu guys think?
> View attachment 15137971


It's a great look.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Wearing the D-Ice today. Such mixed feelings about this one. One the one hand I have so many silver dial divers, and I only seem to wear this when I am contemplating a thinning of the herd, and because I have too many of these Subs, and because I am thinking of putting it on the sale pile (I always do this to try and avoid sellers remorse and re-buys). But then I think I can't sell this, too nice, and I reel it back in.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> It's a great look.


Makes me want to start a "U-S-A" chant. Very captain america looking!


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

How do you all think an Odin bezel insert would look on the Ghost? I'm a sucker for fully-indexed.


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## singularityseven (May 1, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> Wearing the D-Ice today. Such mixed feelings about this one. One the one hand I have so many silver dial divers, and I only seem to wear this when I am contemplating a thinning of the herd, and because I have too many of these Subs, and because I am thinking of putting it on the sale pile (I always do this to try and avoid sellers remorse and re-buys). But then I think I can't sell this, too nice, and I reel it back in.
> View attachment 15139063


I love this. It looks great! I really like the hands.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Wearing the D-Ice today. Such mixed feelings about this one. One the one hand I have so many silver dial divers, and I only seem to wear this when I am contemplating a thinning of the herd, and because I have too many of these Subs, and because I am thinking of putting it on the sale pile (I always do this to try and avoid sellers remorse and re-buys). But then I think I can't sell this, too nice, and I reel it back in.
> View attachment 15139063


Once we get our hooks in ya...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> How do you all think an Odin bezel insert would look on the Ghost? I'm a sucker for fully-indexed.


Slightly OCD comment - if a bezel is meant to time decompression stops down to the minute, then I'd think it should be fully indexed.

But, then again, I've read that decomp stops are 3-5 minutes, in which case, an insert which only has every 5th minute marked off should be fine, if you were to stop for the full 5 minutes, rather than trying to "eye-ball it", or using the minutes on the actual watch face to keep your stop time. I assume safety standards would prohibit that.

Obviously, by that logic, a bezel with 15 or 20 minutes marked off has more than enough for timing stops, but wouldn't be as useful for other purposes, such as tracking elapsed time in other scenarios, like parking meters, exercise, how long it takes to read a wall of text, etc.

Why am I saying all this?

I guess because I've found that I don't seem to have any particular preference for any one style over another (at least, not judging by what's in my own collection), but for whatever reason, when I think about it, I feel like regardless of their aesthetics, things which have a functional purpose ought to be as functional as possible.

Hence, a fully-indexed bezel would seem to be the most functional, and the fewer indices the bezel has, the less functional it would seem.

Would the Ghost look better with an Odin bezel? I dunno, but maybe someone with Photoshop could show you a mock-up, to help you decide (looking at you, Dave Kaye). Given that the other versions of the Nazario all had fully-indexed bezels, it would actually make it more in-line with the Nazario range.

On a related note, a guy in the NTH Fans group on FB posted this, his "Barraphion" ("Amphacuda"?):


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> Given that the other versions of the Nazario all had fully-indexed bezels, it would actually make it more in-line with the Nazario range.


This was my thought. I like how it looks on the other variations.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

At work 







After work b-)
View attachment 2.jpg


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I present the Azzuaro. Just need the red white and blue strap to complete that Captain America look.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> I present the Azzuaro. Just need the red white and blue strap to complete that Captain America look.
> View attachment 15139667


Man, that is the best Sub version bar none. Well done.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I present the Azzuaro. Just need the red white and blue strap to complete that Captain America look.


Maybe at some point in the future, someone is going to make a "Shield" hour hand for the miyota movements...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> I present the Azzuaro. Just need the red white and blue strap to complete that Captain America look.
> View attachment 15139667


Looks like they were meant for each other. Lovely look to it.


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

> On a related note, a guy in the NTH Fans group on FB posted this, his "Barraphion" ("Amphacuda"?):
> 
> View attachment 15139411


Is this the first bezel mod picture out there? Has anyone else completed a bezel swap with the new bezel options?

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

No bezel swap here, but I did put the NTH clasp on a Bonetto Cinturini strap. New favorite...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> No bezel swap here, but I did but the NTH clasp on a Bonetto Cinturini strap. New favorite...
> 
> View attachment 15140073


Very nice. I just kept the Zuludiver clasp on my bonetto. I love that faint vanilla scent.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Would the Ghost look better with an Odin bezel? I dunno, but maybe someone with Photoshop could show you a mock-up, to help you decide (looking at you, Dave Kaye). Given that the other versions of the Nazario all had fully-indexed bezels, it would actually make it more in-line with the Nazario range.


I'm not sure, I could see folks liking it either way. (Yes I'm well aware of the severe lighting mismatch, I did what I could with an extremely limited selection of good IRL shots of the Ghost). If a Ghost owner here could take a head-on shot, I could make this look a lot better, but it should give you an idea, at least. Oh, and it's Dave Kay


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Is this the first bezel mod picture out there? Has anyone else completed a bezel swap with the new bezel options?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Nope.

Scroll backwards through the thread. You'll see a few, I think.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but...

All Barracudas (Vintage Black, as well as Blue, and Brown) are now sold out, worldwide.

Ditto for the Näckens (Modern Black, Modern Blue, and Vintage Blue), except for the Näcken Vintage Black, from the most recent release.

If you're sitting there thinking, "wait for it - he's about to say that everything else is down to single-digit inventory, on average", don't be such a smarta$$, but also, you're paying attention. 

Yes, on average, we're down to fewer than 10 pieces, worldwide, on the 30 versions I'm tracking. For many of those, especially the models which have been available for the last 8-12 months, it's low-single-digits. In some cases, there's only one or two pieces left in the world.

And with very few exceptions, we won't be making more of any of those models in the next release, whenever that happens, if we ever make more.

If you see something you like, best get it before it's gone.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

After swapping the bezel insert I didnt think the Regatta strap flowed well with the watch. So its back on its bracelet until I find one I think matches nicely or I have one made.








Edit: It's like the honeymoon phase all over again. This might be dangerous.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Behold!

Scorphion Nomando


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Behold!
> 
> Scorphion Nomando
> 
> ...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

This is a "what if?" I did just for my own amusement: Nacken Renegade ala Zodiac.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> This is a "what if?" I did just for my own amusement: Nacken Renegade ala Zodiac.
> 
> View attachment 15140927


Try as I might, I just can't seem to enjoy the look of snowflake hands. I like everything else about that though.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> ...
> 
> Oh, and it's Dave Kay


Is the ...e90 part a BMW reference?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Try as I might, I just can't seem to enjoy the look of snowflake hands. I like everything else about that though.


In this case I just picked the Renegade because it has per minute markers out to 15 minutes, like Zodiac's SSW bezels do. Most of the others are either fully indexed, or every five.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Is the ...e90 part a BMW reference?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope. Nokia reference. It's an ancient user name that I originally created for the All About Symbian forums (Symbian was Nokia's mobile OS) that I still use for some reason. Coolest phone of 2007.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Is this the first bezel mod picture out there? Has anyone else completed a bezel swap with the new bezel options?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Not even close to the first!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

hwa said:


> Not even close to the first!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I guess I just meant with the new replacement bezel options that just went on sale. Obviously Jelliotz and you mods came a long time ago.

Mine have now arrived. I have an Oberon v2 for my Santa Fe and an Amphion blue for my Barracuda blue, I also plan to swap the hands on the Barracuda for swords.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Wow, I never wanted a Scorpene until now. That Scorphion Nomando is outstanding.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This is going to be trouble. Now that the possibilities are almost endless, there are a dozen more subs I might want...

12 hour bezels everywhere.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Just checking the bezels against my watches. The Oberon v2 looks great.










However the Amphion blue appears to be a slightly different blue, more shiny neon compared to the matt blue of the original.










We shall have to see how my version of a sunburst blue Amphion turns out 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I think I might have a bit of a blue diver "problem" (addiction) 










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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> Just checking the bezels against my watches. The Oberon v2 looks great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. OberFe and Amphicuda are both awesome. The oberon 2 bezel would look really good on my skipjack but I'm still leaning towards one of the gray options. Just can't decide between gray and gun metal gray...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> This is going to be trouble. Now that the possibilities are almost endless, there are a dozen more subs I might want...
> 
> 12 hour bezels everywhere.


For the Scorpene Nomad, I picked up the Amphion Commando (obviously...) and Vanguard inserts. Thinking I should also grab a Catalina just to complete the NTH 12hr bezel insert collection. ...and maybe an actual dive timing insert ...or two...


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Sporting some faux-tina today...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I'm looking forward to all the new naming conventions. Amphimad, Scorvardis, Bahuna...


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Omegafanboy said:


> I think I might have a bit of a blue diver "problem" (addiction)


Yes you do... You are missing a blue Nacken, the blue Nazario, a Vanguard, the blue Scorpene. Big problem.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Courtesy of Mike Selz on Facebook. How hot is this!?!


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Tikjack or Skipuna?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not jellin' with the BoP bracelet, so back to stock. Modded yesterday, worn today, all smiles.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Courtesy of Mike Selz on Facebook. How hot is this!?!
> View attachment 15143621


Bezel's misaligned.

Clearly defective.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Not jellin' with the BoP bracelet, so back to stock. Modded yesterday, worn today, all smiles.
> 
> View attachment 15143719


That's much better.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> I think I might have a bit of a blue diver "problem" (addiction)


You're missing the best looking Sub and best looking blue watch ever made (in my opinion): the Nacken Renegade!


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> I think I might have a bit of a blue diver "problem" (addiction)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doc, if I remember right, all your blue bezels are all ostensibly the same specs, but maybe some variation between batches, right?

Basically - If I want a "bluer" insert like Omegafanboys Amphion blue insert and I order it now, are my chances good it'll be from the same batch and it'll be equally blue?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OvrSteer (Feb 17, 2014)

You have my full and undivided attention.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Something so similar, can't put my finger on it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> Doc, if I remember right, all your blue bezels are all ostensibly the same specs, but maybe some variation between batches, right?
> 
> Basically - If I want a "bluer" insert like Omegafanboys Amphion blue insert and I order it now, are my chances good it'll be from the same batch and it'll be equally blue?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No idea.

They all looked "blue" when we looked at them.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Not jellin' with the BoP bracelet, so back to stock. Modded yesterday, worn today, all smiles.
> 
> View attachment 15143719


Beads of rice works on the more vintage looking ones imo your dial is so neat and clean the oyster looks fantastic.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> Something so similar, can't put my finger on it.


That first one really should have the Seiko Sumo 12 o'clock marker.


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## MichaelDunford (Oct 1, 2018)

NTH Subs were some of the first mechanical watches that got me ITCHING to get more involved in this hobby. Great stuff, and keep up the good work!


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Not jellin' with the BoP bracelet, so back to stock. Modded yesterday, worn today, all smiles.
> 
> View attachment 15143719


That's a really good look, tbh. Feels very, very much like an aviation watch.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

MichaelDunford said:


> NTH Subs were some of the first mechanical watches that got me ITCHING to get more involved in this hobby. Great stuff, and keep up the good work!


My Nacken was one of my early purchases as well. Once I graduated from quartz, I believe the order was something like: SKX > Zodiac SSW, Borealis Cascais, Nacken Modern Blue. Mine has long since moved on to a new owner, but I still really enjoy following this brand. Here it is next to its successor in my collection:


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Peteagus said:


> Doc, if I remember right, all your blue bezels are all ostensibly the same specs, but maybe some variation between batches, right?
> 
> Basically - If I want a "bluer" insert like Omegafanboys Amphion blue insert and I order it now, are my chances good it'll be from the same batch and it'll be equally blue?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bless you, son

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Something so similar, can't put my finger on it.


Oooooooohhhhh. I know! Its the date wheel!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> No idea.
> 
> They all looked "blue" when we looked at them.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You got Pantone codes for those?

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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

"Oily blue" vs. "just blue" would suffice to describe between A and B there, no? Or are we seriously pretending that there's no difference?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> "Oily blue" vs. "just blue" would suffice to describe between A and B there, no? Or are we seriously pretending that there's no difference?


The Amphion, Odin and Barracuda all have the same coloured blue bezel, which is a slightly paler blue. The new Amphion bezel is much more vibrant blue. I have no idea how to best describe it and I do not know Pantone colours. If I had to I would say it is electric or neon blue.

Both look good and I am sure the new one will go fine with my Barracuda, but it is a very different colour and much more shiny!!










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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

oily blue is something else altogether










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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...








Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Peteagus said:


> oily blue is something else altogether
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That dude is very close to International Klein Blue. Which is the best blue in the world, ever. If you don't believe me, go see the Blue Monochrome at MOMA in NYC. If Doc ever produced a watch with IKB blue, it would be spectacular.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Klein_Blue

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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> That's a really good look, tbh. Feels very, very much like an aviation watch.


Pretty much, yes. I was leaning toward the Vanguard bezel to see how it looks with blue, but I really like the way the dots on the bezel insert match up with the very pronounced minute track of the Scorpene, and thematically, the 12hr/countdown bezel is very aviation, to go with the dial/hands style.

If I hadn't needed to sell my original Scorpene to finance purchase of the Commando, there's a very good chance this would already have happened last Summer...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> "Oily blue" vs. "just blue" would suffice to describe between A and B there, no? Or are we seriously pretending that there's no difference?


I don't think anyone's pretending there is no difference. Doc once described that the manufacturing process, where color coating on the bezels go, introduces some variation across different batches. If anything, this is a great visual demonstration of that...

I can spec a print Pantone spot color all I want, but each color is based on a formula of mixed colors, and sometimes, I have to settle for close-enough...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> That dude is very close to International Klein Blue. Which is the best blue in the world, ever. If you don't believe me, go see the Blue Monochrome at MOMA in NYC. If Doc ever produced a watch with IKB blue, it would be spectacular.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Klein_Blue
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I kept waiting for a picture to load here. Blue rectangle IS the picture? Man, at least throw a frame around that guy or something.

My first experience with a Wiki article about a color. Good times.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

About the blues:

1. Seriously, how many times do we need to do this?

2. I didn't have a sample of every watch we've made available to compare the spare inserts to the original insert on the watch. So it was impossible to compare.

3. Black is black. With blue, and the other colors, you can get some variation from one piece to the next, from one batch to the next.

4. Is someone complaining about the color of the new insert? Seriously? F**k me, this is why I shouldn't have started selling inserts. It was sold as blue. It's blue. Get over it.

5. That model is now 3 years old. Maybe the original insert faded over time.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> F**k me, this is why I shouldn't have started selling inserts.


Hey everyone: if we can not turn this into a "This is why we can't have nice things" thing? That would be great...


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> I kept waiting for a picture to load here. Blue rectangle IS the picture? Man, at least throw a frame around that guy or something.
> 
> My first experience with a Wiki article about a color. Good times.
> 
> ...


Yep. Blue rectangle is the painting. You do have to experience it in person to appreciate its awesomeness. The color cannot truly be conveyed on a computer screen or even a paper print, etc. as the fine dry pigment particles on the original canvas play with the light in ways a flat surface cannot. The history and philosophy behind IKB is quite an interesting rabbit hole. Somehow though, I have a feeling members of this thread don't really want to read a WoT discursion into the esoteric Rosicrucian cosmogony that inspired the mystic philosopher who in turn inspired Klein. 
Klein did have a series of paintings in the early '60s where naked models wore the paint and rolled around on the canvases per his instructions. Rumor has it Klein was wearing a Rolex ref. 6205 that his friend Jacques Cousteau gave him.

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Hey everyone: if we can not turn this into a "This is why we can't have nice things" thing? That would be great...


Agreed. The color is slightly different than what you thought? Tough f***ing luck. Dont install the bezel and sell it. Dont cry about it.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> About the blues:
> 
> 1. Seriously, how many times do we need to do this?
> 
> ...


Definitely not complaining just comparing the difference. Sorry if I gave that impression as it was not my intention. I plan to do the bezel swap over the weekend and will post pictures once done.

I am looking forward to this 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

This watch is much too much kewel enuff.......









Cheerz,

Alan


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Loving the modding action in this thread now 

We always had BSH-caliber conversation; now we've got the creativity of BSH too 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sogeha (Jul 13, 2015)

Rhorya said:


> Something so similar, can't put my finger on it.


Subscribed. Every time I feel my life is utterly pointless, I'm gonna check this thread and see if we have a definite answer to how blue is blue yet


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Yep. Blue rectangle is the painting. You do have to experience it in person to appreciate its awesomeness. The color cannot truly be conveyed on a computer screen or even a paper print, etc. as the fine dry pigment particles on the original canvas play with the light in ways a flat surface cannot. The history and philosophy behind IKB is quite an interesting rabbit hole. Somehow though, I have a feeling members of this thread don't really want to read a WoT discursion into the esoteric Rosicrucian cosmogony that inspired the mystic philosopher who in turn inspired Klein.
> Klein did have a series of paintings in the early '60s where naked models wore the paint and rolled around on the canvases per his instructions. Rumor has it Klein was wearing a Rolex ref. 6205 that his friend Jacques Cousteau gave him.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmmm... can't tell if you are seriously excited about that painting or if this was a joke you've really committed to. Either way, I applaud the passion.

It did get much more interesting towards the end there. And I don't mean the Rolex part. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Hey Doc,

Are you going to start selling hands also? In case someone with a BVB wanted to install Mercedes hands on it, or something along those lines?


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ragl said:


> This watch is much too much kewel enuff.......
> 
> View attachment 15145927
> 
> ...


Cyclops size and position sampler special edition.

Looks cool.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

Hi guys,

Very happy to join the NTH club today following a great transaction with @rickyb86.

I've admired NTH for a while so really pleased with this addition which... Iet's face it, is likely to be the first, not the last









Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just gotta get this out...

I never really wanted to make the Amphion Vintage Blue. It was never something I dreamed up on my own, nor was it really true to the vintage-inspiration theme of the brand. I made it because someone in my inner circle of friends proposed it, and wouldn't stop asking me to make it, and so, we made it, but over my own better instincts.

*EDIT* - _I need to correct the above. Someone in my inner circle did propose it, but he never badgered me to make it. And I owe that guy an apology, if he read that, and wondered what I was talking about. I was thinking about someone else, and another version, which we haven't made, where that happened. It's something that has happened more than once. I get a lot of feedback from a lot of people. Sometimes, some of them don't know when to stop. _

We made 10. That's it. Just 10.

Why? Because, just as I foresaw - not many people wanted it. We only sold seven of them in pre-order. Of the three we sold post-production, only one guy - ONE - paid full price.

With only seven sold in pre-order, I shouldn't have made ANY, and just refunded those seven guys, but I went ahead and made it, because a friend wanted me to, and I really just wanted him to stop badgering me about it. I figured, if we made 10, he'd get one, we'd eventually sell the remaining 3 that didn't sell in pre-order, and I would never need to think about that design again. Until this week, I haven't.

*EDIT* - _Yeah, now I'm not even sure why I pressed on with it. Maybe because my vendors hadn't yet told me what a pain in their a$$ I was being by making things in such small quantities. Nonetheless, I now know better, not just what a PITA I was being for them, but also how much time and energy was wasted making things that not enough people would want. Hopefully it helps explain why I'm often not very receptive to people's suggestions._

Do you know how many people have asked me to make more?

None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Every other model we've made, we made in larger numbers, and in many cases, we've had people ask us to make more. That was the least successful design, among more than 40 different Subs designs.

I had one - ONE - spare bezel insert, for that model. That's it. Just that one piece. And now it's sold.

One of the reasons my business grew as slowly as it did, for as long as it did, was because I listened way too much to the minority voices in the crowd, and tried my best to placate them, rather than listening to my own inner voice, which has rarely steered me wrong.

It doesn't make any sense for us to invest in developing a new design if we can only sell 10 pieces. I feel like I'm losing time (and time is money) just explaining to someone why their idea isn't worth pursuing. That's something I end up doing, a lot. My record of knowing what will sell in advance of developing a new model may not be perfect, but undeniably, it's a hell of a lot better than the crowd's.

You have no idea how irritating it is for me, to get raked over the coals, in public, because the one spare part I had for a watch I never should have made in the first place isn't a perfect color-match for the watch, three years after the fact. I should have kept that insert off the website, and held onto it for the guy who will eventually need it to replace a damaged insert. I can't imagine he would have made the color variation an issue.

I honestly don't remember when that part was made. It's possible we got it with the production (assembled) pieces, and the color was the same, but the watches have faded with time, which can and does happen, especially with blues. It's also possible we got the part later, and it's just a brighter blue, for whatever reason. I don't know, don't care, and don't see why anyone would feel the need to make it a topic of discussion, if the guy who actually has the part isn't complaining.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> Are you going to start selling hands also? In case someone with a BVB wanted to install Mercedes hands on it, or something along those lines?


F**k. No.

I'm already seriously considering pulling the plug on the bezel inserts.

Just not worth the bull$hlt, I think.

Dials and hands? I mean...do you want a huge wall of text? Because I've got one, right here, all queued up. Just say the word, and I'll deliver it.


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## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> F**k. No.
> 
> I'm already seriously considering pulling the plug on the bezel inserts.
> 
> ...


I take that as a "No". No problem, just wondering.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> I just gotta get this out...
> 
> I never really wanted to make the Amphion Vintage Blue. It was never something I dreamed up on my own, nor was it really true to the vintage-inspiration theme of the brand. I made it because someone in my inner circle of friends proposed it, and wouldn't stop asking me to make it, and so, we made it, but over my own better instincts.
> 
> ...


Really glad you made it



Wonderful dial, with perfect bezel color


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

If not hands.......

Feet??


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

My complaint receptors must not be as finely tuned. Or I just missed an obvious blue complaint. 

Interesting to hear that Amphion was the turd of the bunch. No offense to the Dolphin Magenta (I have an Ice), but that’s the one I’d have guessed for lowest take rate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ragl said:


> If not hands.......
> 
> Feet??


If not feet........

Date windows??

Would like to try out a 4:30.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> Hmmm... can't tell if you are seriously excited about that painting or if this was a joke you've really committed to. Either way, I applaud the passion.
> 
> It did get much more interesting towards the end there. And I don't mean the Rolex part.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hah. What can I say? I think it's an awesome painting and the best blue ever. That's why I looked it up. I guess you had to be there. As for the "Anthropometries" series of paintings I mentioned, you can look up film clips showing them being made. Quite interesting...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I'll go ahead and make a positive statement on the blues... The Azzurro bezel insert I got perfectly matched the blue hands on my Sauro. So Doc, even if you deep six selling the inserts, I'm fine and dandy. I even got a replacement for the original Sauro insert to stash away for if I need it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> My complaint receptors must not be as finely tuned. Or I just missed an obvious blue complaint.
> 
> Interesting to hear that Amphion was the turd of the bunch. No offense to the Dolphin Magenta (I have an Ice), but that's the one I'd have guessed for lowest take rate.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When someone posts a pic, showing how two parts which are supposed to be the same color are in fact different, and it becomes the new topic of discussion, none of the comments need be an outright complaint. It's enough that some of the comments seem vaguely critical, as if we've got a problem, when, as far as I can see, the only problems are the ones people create, where none existed.

As for turds - anyone who does anything creative knows not everything you do is going to be equally good, or equally well-received, for any number of reasons. If we produced 40 versions of the Subs, one will be the best seller, and one will be the worst.

The challenge I have is that, while I understand and accept the fact that some versions won't sell as quickly, I need EVERY version to sell well enough to justify the investment in developing it and managing its production, supporting it long-term, etc.

There was never really a time when I *should* have made anything in such small numbers. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have made all the same decisions, and there wouldn't be quite as much variation in what we've made. While I was once able to get my vendors to agree to make things in odd-ball numbers (16 of this, 23 of that), that time is passed. It's better for all if we don't make anything if we can't make 25-100 pieces at a time.

I know people think I'm being grouchy when I say "find 49 (or 499) friends who also want it, and I'll make anything you want", but I'm not. It's the only way I can think of to push back against the endless line of guys who want to badger me to make their dream-watch, insisting I'd sell "a ton" of them if I'd just listen to their ideas.

Well, I've listened at times, and I can say, unequivocally, that my track record is better than the line of guys who pine for their dream watch (GMT's, Bronze, Titanium, Ceramic, fill in your own private wish-list items here). So, when someone wants to piss in my ear about making their dream watch, the true test of their idea is to challenge them to go find 49 or 499 friends who want the same thing.

I mean, if they're so convinced I'd sell "a ton" of them, it shouldn't be too hard to find a bunch of other guys who agree, right?

It's easy for them to suggest I risk *MY* time, energy, and money pursuing *THEIR* idea, but if they can't be bothered to go find others who are equally as committed (and willing to plunk down full-price pre-orders for something I won't make otherwise), why should I be bothered?

I will literally - NOT FIGURATIVELY - make ANYTHING anyone wants, if there are enough guys willing to pay for it, in advance of my producing it. Why should all the risk be on me? Why should I underwrite this one-off custom project, with the financial stability of my business hanging in the balance between success and failure?

---

I shouldn't have made the Dolphin Magenta, either, by the way. And, not at all coincidentally, it came about for almost identical reasons. Whenever anyone of the female persuasion heard I made watches, they'd always ask me to make a woman's watch. My wife, all her yenta friends, my mom, my sisters, my nieces, etc, etc, etc.

I resisted that, for years, knowing, for a certainty, that there was just no point, but eventually, I gave in, and over-rode my own inner voice. We made a unisex model, and even gathered input from female WIS. I was willing to try an experiment, once, to see if there was something there that I just couldn't see.

Nope. There wasn't. And there rarely is. I tend to see the whole picture, because I spend a lot of time reading, watching, thinking, crunching numbers, and I trust my own instincts more than anything anyone tells me.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> About the blues:
> 
> 1. Seriously, how many times do we need to do this?


I don't know...I mean it _*is*_ a relevant point someone is making about your product. And this *is* a thread about your brand, so...I guess until the thread is closed or everyone runs out of comments and/or complaints? Wouldn't that make sense?



docvail said:


> 4. Is someone complaining about the color of the new insert? Seriously? , this is why I shouldn't have started selling inserts. It was sold as blue. It's blue. Get over it.


First of all: I told you earlier that everything you sell you should be ready to catch flack on. Stop taking everything so personally and responding like it's an attack against you. Mistakes are made in life. If you made a mistake, just say so. Don't get so mad at another person pointing it out.

Why are you getting mad when someone makes a relevant point about a product you sell because something isn't mentioned in the product description that should have been? It's completely valid to post what he posted here. That's why you're trying to explain the reasons why the blue doesn't look the way the buyer thought it would. Those other points listed in your response (where you're not complaining about having to do customer service on a thread about your company) are your excuses as to why the product listed on your site isn't what the customer (or you) expected. Don't get mad at the customer. It's not their fault. It was either a misunderstanding between you and your supplier or a miscommunication between you and your buyers.



TheBearded said:


> Agreed. The color is slightly different than what you thought? Dont install the bezel and sell it. Dont cry about it.


YEAH! We're tough guys who talk about and post our watches online (and have to censor our curse words)! You didn't get what you expected? This is our opportunity to suck up on a public forum to the owner who doesn't always care about customer satisfaction either but instead just wants us to buy his stuff, shut up, and be happy with whatever we get! NTH GROUPTHINK GANG! Now let's call everyone whose opinion doesn't align with Doc's a "troll" without furthering the conversation in any way ourselves!

That was sarcasm btw. And I know Doc seems to care about his customer satisfaction when it comes to guaranteeing his watches will work as they should, but he also seems to like to "cry" (as TheBearded likes to put it) about every customer interaction on this forum when they're not kissing his butt.



docvail said:


> You have no idea how irritating it is for me, to get raked over the coals, in public, because the one spare part I had for a watch I never should have made in the first place isn't a perfect color-match for the watch, three years after the fact. I should have kept that insert off the website, and held onto it for the guy who will eventually need it to replace a damaged insert. I can't imagine he would have made the color variation an issue.
> 
> I honestly don't remember when that part was made. It's possible we got it with the production (assembled) pieces, and the color was the same, but the watches have faded with time, which can and does happen, especially with blues. It's also possible we got the part later, and it's just a brighter blue, for whatever reason. I don't know, don't care, and don't see why anyone would feel the need to make it a topic of discussion, if the guy who actually has the part isn't complaining.


See? Those are all the excuses you have about why the color wasn't what the customer expected. And that's fine. But guess what, Doc? WE DO KNOW HOW IRRITATING IT IS FOR YOU! You rant on here about your bad experiences with customers all the time. Almost constantly. Nobody can ask you a question without you getting offended because it has been answered already in some thread 100+ pages long somewhere else. Chill out! That's part of what owning a business is about! You have to put up with customers' bs, but you make money. If it's not worth it, then stop doing it. But if you want to continue to have a business, then expect some criticism. Maybe try not to take it so personally and let it get to you so much.

He feels the need to make a product he bought from you a topic of discussion on a thread about your products because this is where it should be! Where else should he post about it? RolexForums? This is the NTH thread on watchuseek. This is exactly where someone should post about their experiences with NTH. Good or bad. Read your first post on the first page of this thread if you need to again.

You make some nice watches with good designs that offer great value, but you really need to relax online.

I agree that you should go with your gut on designs you want to put out for your company over designs that a few people tell you they might buy. That would make sense. What also might make sense is you hiring someone to do your customer service and public relations in the future if you're going to get mad every time someone asks a question, makes a comment, or has a complaint. Or maybe just don't start threads that open yourself up to those questions, comments, and complaints. Or don't take it so personally. Idk...I just know this doesn't seem like it's working for you or making you a happy business owner. Figure it out, Doc. You're the brain surgeon. ;-)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I just gotta get this out...
> 
> I never really wanted to make the Amphion Vintage Blue. It was never something I dreamed up on my own, nor was it really true to the vintage-inspiration theme of the brand. I made it because someone in my inner circle of friends proposed it, and wouldn't stop asking me to make it, and so, we made it, but over my own better instincts.
> 
> ...


I need to correct the above. Someone in my inner circle did indeed propose it, but he never badgered me to make it. And I owe that guy an apology, if he read that, and wondered what I was talking about.

I was thinking about someone else, and another version, which we haven't made, where that happened. It's something that has happened more than once. I get a lot of feedback from a lot of people. Sometimes, some of them don't know when to stop.

Now I'm not even sure why I pressed on with that model. Maybe because my vendors hadn't yet told me what a pain in their a$$ I was being by making things in such small quantities. Nonetheless, I now know better, not just what a PITA it was for them, but also how much of my own time and energy was wasted making things that not enough people would want. Hopefully it helps explain why I'm often not very receptive to people's suggestions.

It's been a long couple months, especially the last couple weeks, and I'm not in the right frame of mind to be responding to comments about the bezel inserts, not just because of some of the BS that's come up surrounding the inserts (much of which was mind-numbingly obtuse), but just some other BS being thrust at me, from various corners.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

I think this design is ugly, but others might not like the designs I do. That's why you should either just make what you want or only offer preorders/kickstarter style watches. Depends on how much investment you want to have in your company, and it even relates back to Halios offering only small batches of their designs.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mgp123 said:


> I don't know...I mean it _*is*_ a relevant point someone is making about your product. And this *is* a thread about your brand, so...I guess until the thread is closed or everyone runs out of comments and/or complaints? Wouldn't that make sense?





mgp123 said:


> First of all: I told you earlier that everything you sell you should be ready to catch flack on. Stop taking everything so personally and responding like it's an attack against you. Mistakes are made in life. If you made a mistake, just say so. Don't get so mad at another person pointing it out.
> 
> Why are you getting mad when someone makes a relevant point about a product you sell because something isn't mentioned in the product description that should have been? It's completely valid to post what he posted here. That's why you're trying to explain the reasons why the blue doesn't look the way the buyer thought it would. Those other points listed in your response (where you're not complaining about having to do customer service on a thread about your company) are your excuses as to why the product listed on your site isn't what the customer (or you) expected. Don't get mad at the customer. It's not their fault. It was either a misunderstanding between you and your supplier or a miscommunication between you and your buyers.





mgp123 said:


> YEAH! We're tough guys who talk about and post our watches online (and have to censor our curse words)! You didn't get what you expected? This is our opportunity to suck up on a public forum to the owner who doesn't always care about customer satisfaction either but instead just wants us to buy his stuff, shut up, and be happy with whatever we get! NTH GROUPTHINK GANG! Now let's call everyone whose opinion doesn't align with Doc's a "troll" without furthering the conversation in any way ourselves!
> 
> That was sarcasm btw. And I know Doc seems to care about his customer satisfaction when it comes to guaranteeing his watches will work as they should, but he also seems to like to "cry" (as TheBearded likes to put it) about every customer interaction on this forum when they're not kissing his butt.





mgp123 said:


> See? Those are all the excuses you have about why the color wasn't what the customer expected. And that's fine. But guess what, Doc? WE DO KNOW HOW IRRITATING IT IS FOR YOU! You rant on here about your bad experiences with customers all the time. Almost constantly. Nobody can ask you a question without you getting offended because it has been answered already in some thread 100+ pages long somewhere else. Chill out! That's part of what owning a business is about! You have to put up with customers' bs, but you make money. If it's not worth it, then stop doing it. But if you want to continue to have a business, then expect some criticism. Maybe try not to take it so personally and let it get to you so much.
> 
> He feels the need to make a product he bought from you a topic of discussion on a thread about your products because this is where it should be! Where else should he post about it? RolexForums? This is the NTH thread on watchuseek. This is exactly where someone should post about their experiences with NTH. Good or bad. Read your first post on the first page of this thread if you need to again.
> 
> ...


First. A lot of your points are valid. I'll get that out of the way.

On another note... Even if you are a fan of NTH like all of us (Admin Edit) as you so eloquently put it, but you don't like all the riding, then why are you here? To stir the pot at every opportunity? I'm not calling you a troll, but a spade is a spade.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ya'll know what time it is: debating-ending DevilRay time 




























My shark mesh could certainly use a bit more Scotch Bright. That polish is proving a bit stubborn. May have to bust our some grittier sandpaper.

I'd never let this DR go.

But I do kinda want one of the misnamed whites too (~ Searambler action) . . .

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> I don't know...I mean it _*is*_ a relevant point someone is making about your product. And this *is* a thread about your brand, so...I guess until the thread is closed or everyone runs out of comments and/or complaints? Wouldn't that make sense?


I don't know exactly what you mean.

When I ask "how many times do we need to do this," what I specifically mean is, how many times do I have to explain that colors can vary from part to part, and batch to batch, or that with PVD plating, we don't specify Pantone colors or RGB's. There are exactly TWO (2) different blues available to us, and we always use the same one, which is supposedly the darker of the two, but I for one can't tell the difference between them, and neither can anyone I've shown the plating samples to.

So...which seems more likely, that the blue bezel insert is "defective", or that the original faded over time?



mgp123 said:


> First of all: I told you earlier that everything you sell you should be ready to catch flack on. Stop taking everything so personally and responding like it's an attack against you. Mistakes are made in life. If you made a mistake, just say so. Don't get so mad at another person pointing it out.


Not for nothing, but coming from the guy who couldn't take anyone criticizing him, this advice is somewhat ironic.

The fact is, there was no mistake made with the insert. We ordered blue. We got blue. We sold it as blue. It's blue. Where's the mistake?

I'm not mad at anyone, except maybe myself, for not foreseeing that someone would inevitably want to stir up some $hlt over something so inane.



mgp123 said:


> Why are you getting mad when someone makes a relevant point about a product you sell because something isn't mentioned in the product description that should have been?


Again, not mad. And what should have been mentioned in the product description, which wasn't? Have you looked at the image for that insert on the product page of the website? Tell me the insert shown isn't a vibrant blue.









That's a PHOTOGRAPH, by the way, of the original watch, not a 3D illustration Rusty ginned up.

The guy who bought the insert says he's not complaining. Okay, good. Why would anyone else want to make it an issue if it's not one for the guy who has the part in question?



mgp123 said:


> It's completely valid to post what he posted here. That's why you're trying to explain the reasons why the blue doesn't look the way the buyer thought it would.


So...now you know my reasons, which I guess means you're a mind-reader?

I didn't say anything about it in response to the post from the guy who has the insert. When someone asked if there was a way to get a bluer insert, I said they all looked blue to me, and hoped that would be the end of it. The only reason I made further comments about it is because it became obvious that some saw it as a problem, when it clearly wasn't, and still isn't, since the guy who bought the one and only part of its kind isn't complaining.



mgp123 said:


> Those other points listed in your response (where you're not complaining about having to do customer service on a thread about your company) are your excuses as to why the product listed on your site isn't what the customer (or you) expected. Don't get mad at the customer. It's not their fault. It was either a misunderstanding between you and your supplier or a miscommunication between you and your buyers.


Aaaaannnndddd...there it is, the personal jab. Right on time.

Mate, have you ever actually received customer support from my business? Many here have. There is no doubt that if I were to ask, I would have 20 guys in this thread, telling everyone about the outstanding support they received, before my head hits the pillow tonight.

It's a numbers game. Some percentage of people in the world can't be made happy, no matter what you do for them. I can't make them happy, no matter what I do. Luckily, it's a small percentage, but they're out there. If you think the support you've gotten, or might get from my business has been or will be lacking, I'm okay if you want to patronize another business.

I have other customers to serve.



mgp123 said:


> YEAH! We're tough guys who talk about and post our watches online (and have to censor our curse words)! You didn't get what you expected? 'Tough luck' This is our opportunity to suck up on a public forum to the owner who doesn't always care about customer satisfaction either but instead just wants us to buy his stuff, shut up, and be happy with whatever we get! NTH GROUPTHINK GANG! Now let's call everyone whose opinion doesn't align with Doc's a "troll" without furthering the conversation in any way ourselves!
> 
> That was sarcasm btw. And I know Doc seems to care about his customer satisfaction when it comes to guaranteeing his watches will work as they should, but he also seems to like to "cry" (as TheBearded likes to put it) about every customer interaction on this forum when they're not kissing his ass.


Uhm...where do I even start?

Who's sucking up? Most people here are using made-up user names. I know who some of them are in real life, but the vast majority, I don't. What benefit is there for them to suck up to me, if I don't even know who they are? It's not like I'm throwing out freebies and discounts left and right. Just the opposite. I charge more than most of my peers, and never discount anything.

In fact, most of the guys I *do* know are the ones who are the most brutal in their commentary. I seem to get plenty of criticism, constructive or not, and for the most part, I take it in stride. If anything, it's the few times I do respond which seem to be the stuff of legend. But that's just it - it's the exception, not the rule, that people perpetuate, and turn into legend. It's exactly why so many other brand owners don't participate here.

I don't always care about customer satisfaction? Seriously? I already had one of the most customer-friendly returns policies in place (30 days), and a better warranty than most of my peers (two years, whereas most micros seem to only offer one), when I went ahead and extended the returns policy to six weeks, and guarantee the movement for six years. When the one-year warranty on the defect-prone Riccardo was ending, I stepped up and extended everyone's warranty for another year, and invited people to let me know if they had any lingering issues, so I could do my best to get them sorted.

I actually tell people NOT to buy my stuff, if they're new to collecting, or not sure, or are looking for the best bang-for-the-buck. I tell everyone to let me know right away, as soon as they receive a watch, if there's any problem with it, so we can sort it out. When someone tells me they bought one of my watches used, from someone else, I always tell them to let me know if it gives them any trouble. I can't even tell you how many guys have come to me with a problem, after their warranty was expired, and we took care of the problem for them.

Like I said, there's a certain percentage of people in the world I can't make happy, no matter what I do. If you're one of them, it's okay if you want to patronize another business.



mgp123 said:


> See? Those are all the excuses you have about why the color wasn't what the customer expected.


I don't know how to solve the "problem" when the product we delivered is exactly as it's pictured and described on the website.

Again, the color of the bezel is different than the original, but the original is 3 years old. The color is exactly as it appears and was described on the website.

So...if it wasn't what was expected, then...yep, this is why I said probably should have kept that insert for the guy who needs it to replace a damaged part, not sold it, if I wasn't able to prevent this situation from happening.

It never occurred to me that someone might be less than pleased that the brand new part they bought looks brand new, not exactly like their three year old part.



mgp123 said:


> And that's fine. But guess what, Doc? WE DO KNOW HOW IRRITATING IT IS FOR YOU! You rant on here about your bad experiences with customers all the time.


"All the time"?

I mean, maybe every couple of months. We're selling a lot of watches. Even if the customer satisfaction rate is over 99%, which it seems to be, we're going to get some percentage of guys with unrealistic expectations.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think you'd react if you had guys coming at you, complaining that the product they bought wasn't what they expected, even though it's exactly as it was pictured and described, or they only mention it to you years later, or instead of directing their comments to your support line, you're put into the position of having to address it publicly?

That's what I deal with, routinely.

I think it's kind of unreasonable for someone to complain that the product they got is exactly as it was depicted, and described. I think it's kind of unreasonable to lodge that complaint days, weeks, months, sometimes years after the fact, after they've been wearing it, when it's too late for me to do anything about it. I think it's kind of unreasonable to expect me to address it in a public forum, rather than contacting my company directly, giving us the most opportunity to sort things out for you.



mgp123 said:


> Almost constantly. Nobody can ask you a question without you getting offended because it has been answered already in some thread 100+ pages long somewhere else.


I literally - not figuratively - answer the same dozen or so questions, over and over again, without ever getting offended.

I will admit that when someone - as in, one guy - brings something up, repeatedly, and won't let it go, no matter how many times and ways I've tried to explain why I can't or won't do as requested, yeah, it does get kind of annoying.

But, even at that, some of those guys are my friends, not just customers, or even just guys on a forum, who haven't bought anything, and probably never will. So, even though it can be annoying, I tend to roll with it.

No one here or anywhere else has ever been singled out by me, nor received an angry private message from me, calling them to task for annoying me in some way.

But, you're at least the tenth guy to call me to task for occasionally opening up and allowing people to see that what I do isn't all cocktail parties and smelly cheeses. It's real work, with all the frustrations and challenges of real work, including those others sometimes impose on me, uninvited.

Hope you feel better, now that you got that off your chest.



mgp123 said:


> Chill out! That's part of what owning a business is about!


You sound like a man in the know. Tell us what your business is, so we can all stop by and spend some time second-guessing, haranguing, questioning, making helpful suggestions, etc.

I'll be happy to see how you handle all of that with the same aplomb you've handled the comments from other folks here.



mgp123 said:


> You have to put up with customers' bs, but you make money.


Actually, I don't have to put up with the bs. That's the point which becomes clear, eventually, to the guys who mistakenly think I do.

The business has a few pretty simple guiding principles, really. One of them is that we don't deserve everyone's business, which you can read one of two ways, but the customers we keep read it the same way I do.



mgp123 said:


> If it's not worth it, then stop doing it. But if you want to continue to have a business, then expect some criticism. Maybe try not to take it so personally and let it get to you so much.


What you really mean is, "shut up and let people criticize you, without ever pushing back."

Yeahhhhh....no.

If I wanted that for myself, I'd still be working for someone else. Everyone is allowed to say whatever they want to me. I'm allowed to say whatever I want in response. If anyone doesn't like what I have to say, well, okay, they're doing both of us a favor by figuring that out sooner rather than later.



mgp123 said:


> He feels the need to make a product he bought from you a topic of discussion on a thread about your products because this is where it should be! Where else should he post about it? RolexForums? This is the NTH thread on watchuseek. This is exactly where someone should post about their experiences with NTH. Good or bad. Read your first post on the first page of this thread if you need to again.


Actually, he didn't. He posted a pic, and it became a topic for others to debate. He later posted that he wasn't complaining about it.

But, had he wanted to make it an issue, if he wasn't happy, the right thing to do would have been to direct that to the support mechanisms in place for customers, not ambush me with it here, on a forum.

Even though we don't accept returns on bezel inserts, I'd have made an exception if he'd contacted me directly, because he wasn't happy about it. I wouldn't have paid return shipping, because the part wasn't the wrong part, nor is it different than what was pictured or described on our website, but I'd have refunded his purchase of the part itself.

Because, I want my customers to be happy, and so I try to address complaints as best I can, even when we did nothing wrong, and the complaint seems unreasonable.



mgp123 said:


> You make some nice watches with good designs that offer great value, but you really need to relax online.


The irony in you making that statement isn't lost on one of us.



mgp123 said:


> I agree that you should go with your gut on designs you want to put out for your company over designs that a few people tell you they might buy. That would make sense. What also might make sense is you hiring someone to do your customer service and public relations in the future if you're going to get mad every time someone asks a question, makes a comment, or has a complaint.


I'm sorry, were you looking for a job?

Unfortunately, we're not hiring, at least not for that role.



mgp123 said:


> Or maybe just don't start threads that open yourself up to those questions, comments, and complaints. Or don't take it so personally.


It's a thread about my business. I'm responding to people's questions or comments about my business. I don't take much (if anything) of what's posted here personally. If anything, it seems like some guys take what I say too personally, even if I'm just responding to a topic in general, without quoting anyone's post.

Case in point - you seem to be pretty worked up about this, despite the fact that you didn't buy that part, and I didn't quote your post as part of my response, but what I said about it clearly stuck in your craw.



mgp123 said:


> Idk...I just know this doesn't seem like it's working for you or making you a happy business owner. Figure it out, Doc. You're the brain surgeon. ;-)


I'm happy enough dealing with the folks who are happy with what we deliver (both the product, and the spectacle of this and previous threads about my business). I admit I'm less than thrilled with some of the exchanges I've had with some folks, both privately and publicly, but I try to accept that the occasional heckler is just part of living life in the spotlight.

Speaking only for myself, I never called you a troll, or anything else. It does seem like you're going out of your way to ruffle some folks' feathers, though, including some moderators'. In my observation, that doesn't bode well for someone's long-term prospects on this forum. Say what you want about the moderators, for all their patience and temperance, they seem pretty quick to ban someone who actually asks for it.

If that happens, and I mean this sincerely, I hope you find happiness, wherever you go, whatever you buy, whatever you do.

I'll keep doing me. Because as much of an jerk as I can sometimes be, most folks seem okay with it, because I'm funny, and I do good work, and I take care of people as best I can.

You do you, if you like, or not, whatever.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> I take that as a "No". No problem, just wondering.


That question comes up periodically, both publicly and privately.

I won't sell movements, hands, or dials, for lots of reasons.

Suffice to say that we're not set up to ship them safely. Even if we were able to package them appropriately, and to be efficient in doing that, we can't guarantee that they won't still be damaged in transit, which can happen any number of ways, no matter how well packaged those parts are.

It doesn't help that there's so little profit in the sale of those parts, nowhere near enough to offset the time spent ordering them, inspecting what we get, packaging them for safe shipping, labeling them, responding to inquiries about them, etc. We'll just never sell them in high enough volume to justify the hassle of dealing with it all.

A steel bezel insert is pretty rugged, so we don't worry about damage in shipping, and it's the one part we know enough people will eventually want to replace that we need to be prepared to provide that support. We had enough people asking, and we were spending enough time responding, that it just made more sense to put those parts up on the website for people to buy on demand, without making them jump through any hoops to prove they "needed" the part to replace one which was damaged. None of that will ever be true for dials, hands, or movements.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I bought a Vanguard bezel insert. It's blue. No complaints. I did not bust out a Pantone book, just like I do not bust out a loupe to examine my watches. I have both, for professional reasons, but c'mon, watches are supposed to be fun.

I also bought a different bracelet (other than the BoP), and to say I received superlative customer service would be a vast understatement. 

Never had issues with any NTH watch I've had, but I trust if I did, that John at Watchgauge or Chris at NTH would sort it out.

WOTs from Doc are often worth reading. WOTs from critics of any variety, not so much...


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> First. A lot of your points are valid. I'll get that out of the way.
> 
> On another note... Even if you are a fan of NTH like all of us (Admin Edit) as you so eloquently put it, but you don't like all the riding, then why are you here? To stir the pot at every opportunity? I'm not calling you a troll, but a spade is a spade.


I am here because I like watches, like and own NTHs, and want to talk about things concerning them.

I'm not here to bother Doc with the same questions every other page or suck up to him when he snaps at a person who asks a repetitive question. That's his job. To respond; not be snappy about his responses. He put himself in this position; not anyone else. If he doesn't like it, he should hire someone else to do it for him.

That's all I'm saying about that right now.

My "controversial" statements in the past on here were about the same thing everyone else was whining for: bracelets. I said I didn't have a problem with them, but was just wondering why he couldn't offer a particular one that he has offered in the past as an accessory. He snapped back about being sick of the same questions (even though it was a similar question with a different point being made) and said it was due to complaints about people having issues with the buckle on the NTH Azores and Antilles. So really the answer is: people either complained too much about the quality of the bracelet (which again I have no problem with), or the quality wasn't consistent (some were worse than others and I got a good one). But once he snapped on me, everyone who asked the same question I did in the past with less to contribute (the additional part of "why not offer a bracelet you already had produced?" instead of asking him to develop a new expensive one that might open him up to patent lawsuits) jumped on me and called me a "troll" for some reason. I could have said the same thing before to them about their repetitive questions, but instead offered a different point of view on a way to make everyone happy the easiest way. In the end nobody was happy, I got banned for responding to these other trolls, and for some reason I'm still a jerk I guess.

And I threw in the wink emoji because I was joking about him being a brain surgeon since people have confused him for being a doctor since he goes by "Doc". It wasn't related to the every line of text before. It was a joke about his name.


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## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Dang, Doc. That was an epic WOT. BTW, you sell nice watches.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Just for the record and perspective, for those who haven't been following Doc for the last few years, the "what color blue is it" discussion has been going on since at least 2014. I kid you not.

If tomorrow gets boring, I'll go see and find if I can dig up the old thread. FWIW


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

MarkND said:


> Dang, Doc. That was an epic WOT. BTW, you sell nice watches. [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200523/630a145ced18095968893f0a3776d5b7.jpg[/IMG]


Nice look 

And my reaction was the same: that one may have been a top-10er?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

docvail said:


> I don't know exactly what you mean...You do you, if you like, or not, whatever.


I'm not quoting all of that text you wrote back for everyone's sake (including the WUS servers), and I'm honestly not reading all of it. I did scan through a bit though (mostly the beginning and end), and I think it's pretty clear you take all of this stuff personally. I'm trying to tell you that you just need to either learn to accept criticism or have someone else respond to it since you seem so unhappy to reply to anyone about any question, comment, or complaint. You don't seem to even like doing this job from most of your responses. You're constantly complaining about all of your customers who bother you on here. Either hire someone to reply to them or understand that you're going to get people who are idiots, scammers, etc. You'll have to deal with it. It sucks, but that's what you get with your own business. Especially when you choose to do customer service yourself. I don't think you're cut out for that aspect of the business, and it seems to be your least favorite; but like you said "you do you".

I'm not upset when I'm replying to anything. I'm just trying to make my points clear. That's why I capitalize or bold certain points. I'm sitting on my computer checking back on this thread when I get the time. I don't follow it on my phone like a lot of you. I come on here to talk about NTH and watches. I have a lot of stuff going on in my life (both good and bad), but that has nothing to do with any of this. When I comment on here, I'm talking about watches and watch related topics that have been brought up. If you don't like the questions, then don't respond and ignore them. That's your choice. I'm just saying you don't always need to be snappy with everything that isn't a comment praising you. You need to accept that it's a fact that you'll get everything with a business (both good and bad), and deal with it or find a way that you can avoid the customer service aspect of the business that you seem to dislike so much (unless it's praise).

I've been on here trying to ask logical questions about the brand and talk about other watch related stuff that was brought up, not annoy you. I try to show some love for NTH too since I've posted many times how much I like your watches and feel they're great value. But I get sick of checking back in here to see you snapping at everyone (especially since you've done it to me as well), and then people kissing up to you over your response like you're being professional or even witty about them. Most of the time it's just "HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO GO OVER THIS WITH THESE IDIOTS? I'M NOT DOING [INSERT WHATEVER]. END OF STORY". Stop patting yourself on your back about your responses. You're known for your walls of text which you continue to do (I know...pot calling the kettle black) and a short temper online. People are okay with it because they feel they have to be for some reason. The majority of humans are idiots. Sheep and simps. I'm just letting you know I'm not a fan of it, and feel like you should do something to improve your quality of life if all of these posts and other things about the business bother you so much that you have to constantly complain about them. Like you've said: you're the boss. So delegate someone to do the bs work that makes you unhappy and just do what you like. Design more watches that you like and feel others would want to buy. That would probably make the most people happy.


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> I bought a Vanguard bezel insert. It's blue. No complaints. I did not bust out a Pantone book, just like I do not bust out a loupe to examine my watches. I have both, for professional reasons, but c'mon, watches are supposed to be fun.
> 
> I also bought a different bracelet (other than the BoP), and to say I received superlative customer service would be a vast understatement.
> 
> ...


Hey...I agree. I also like his watches and have no complaints with them. But if someone brings up the fact that the bezel they bought is a different color than the others they own, it shouldn't be taken as a huge personal criticism with everyone crucifying the dude because Doc took the post badly.

I've never even had to send my watches back for any service because the quality has been great! That's why I like these watches and say they're such a good value. But I have seen him deal with customer service style questions and comments on here, and I don't think he's the best at it. He takes them too personally.

Most of his WOT responses _are_ great to read unless it's responding to someone he doesn't agree with. And I try to keep my WOTs down unless I'm responding to someone else criticizing me too. In those cases, the WOT are probably just interesting to that one person who I'm responding too. In that last case with his WOT response, I didn't really want to read it because I felt like he was getting more upset than he needed to. So I didn't read it. Problem solved! Nobody is forcing anyone to read or reply to anyone on here, so could we stop acting like it? Don't like a user's posts? Don't read em!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Just for the record and perspective, for those who haven't been following Doc for the last few years, the "what color blue is it" discussion has been going on since at least 2014. I kid you not.
> 
> If tomorrow gets boring, I'll go see and find if I can dig up the old thread. FWIW


I want to say it dates back to the Orthos Commander 300 project (2014-2015, I think).

I'm pretty sure that was it. There seemed to be a lot of debate about the blue(s), leading to the inevitable dissertations from guys waxing on about monitor calibrations, as well as the large number of ocular specialists we suddenly seemed to have here, and the part-time philosophers ("what if the blue we see isn't blue at all, and we see colors differently than everyone else, but never realized it?").

It's entirely possible I lost patience with it more quickly, if it was also a topic of debate in the first forum project we did here, the Flying Dutchman, which was also "blue", but a blue which I think also got a lot of debate, whether it required it or not (I think not).

There was one guy in particular who wanted to debate "which blue is it" beyond the point of all reason, on that Commander 300 project, which I think is how it became a recurring gag. It's possible (probable) that I eventually dumped a text-wall on him, when it got to be too much, which some guys saw coming, and were just waiting for it to happen, to their endless enjoyment.

From there, it was inevitable that it would become a thing in the first and subsequent NTH threads. Unavoidable.

If I could do it all over again, I'd choose one shade of blue, red, orange, etc, and use those shades over and over again, on everything. Don't let anyone tell you I never learn - the turquoise accents on the black Swiftsure are the same color turquoise we used for the DevilRay. The orange accents you'll see on another model are the same as the orange DevilRay. There's a blue that's the same as the Odin.

The truth behind the gag is that for some reason, blue does seem to be the one color that inspires the most debate, is the hardest to capture with more cameras, is among the more difficult to match, etc, which is why I'm moving towards using the same Pantone colors over and over. My hope is that eventually, people will see that NTH blue is NTH blue, and they're all the same blue.

It won't change the fact that blue dials and bezels can fade over time, or the fact that I can't specify exactly what color the bezels are, or that colors can vary slightly from one part to another, or one batch to the next, but hopefully it will make it easier for people to get a sense of what shade of blue they should expect before making a purchase.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I want to say it dates back to the Orthos Commander 300 project (2014-2015, I think).
> 
> I'm pretty sure that was it. There seemed to be a lot of debate about the blue(s), leading to the inevitable dissertations from guys waxing on about monitor calibrations, as well as the large number of ocular specialists we suddenly seemed to have here, and the part-time philosophers ("what if the blue we see isn't blue at all, and we see colors differently than everyone else, but never realized it?").
> 
> ...


Nailed it. And saved me a couple of hours of trying to find the reference.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mgp123 said:


> Hey...I agree. I also like his watches and have no complaints with them. But if someone brings up the fact that the bezel they bought is a different color than the others they own, it shouldn't be taken as a huge personal criticism with everyone crucifying the dude because Doc took the post badly.


Difference of perspective, I guess -- I must have missed the part where anyone took the issue as a huge personal offence or that everyone crucified the dude. Also not sure where you're coming from with "Doc took the post badly" -- seems to me he was just explaining the issue, again, and maybe a tad frustrated at having to do so, when he's already done so, multiple times in the past. I don't think "badly" was as implied as you seem to infer it was...

Did you miss the part where the actual person who bought the actual *only* bezel insert for that model said he was perfectly happy with it? To me, that indicates end of story, "...and everyone lived happily ever after." I didn't think there was anything left to say about the matter, but apparently, you thought different.



mgp123 said:


> Don't like a user's posts? Don't read em!


That would be why I completely skipped your original WOT post, just recently.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work to simmer down the crowd. Once again mounted on Erika's.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

When I walk away from doc's thread, you know ..... got real. Adios, boys. It was a fun 7 years. Fonzi called. Told me he jumped a shark. An EFFIN SHARK!!!!

long time dudes arguing with a newbie troll positively dying for a banhammer. Remember the argue-bots? Remember the non-sequiturd?

Peace out










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]15146921[/ATTACH]


I thought about posting this very meme a few hours ago.

But I went with the DR photos instead when I remembered that I already posted the meme a year or so ago in a Doc-bait thread that got shut down within maybe an hour, before Doc even got to respond.

I remember this one from that thread made me laugh.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Difference of perspective, I guess -- I must have missed the part where anyone took the issue as a huge personal offence or that everyone crucified the dude.


Then you should go back and read where another user says the guy needs to stop "crying" for posting a picture with the watches and additional bezel while just saying that it's a different color.



mconlonx said:


> Also not sure where you're coming from with "Doc took the post badly" -- seems to me he was just explaining the issue, again, and maybe a tad frustrated at having to do so, when he's already done so, multiple times in the past. I don't think "badly" was as implied as you seem to infer it was...


Then you should go back and read some more. I'm pretty sure I quoted it in my replies. I made it easy enough that someone like you could follow...or at least I thought I did.



mconlonx said:


> Did you miss the part where the actual person who bought the actual *only* bezel insert for that model said he was perfectly happy with it?


Nope! I didn't miss that at all. That's why I was so confused by TheBearded and Doc's replies from the start since I didn't take the original comment as any harsh critique against Doc or NTH. Especially considering the response. Again...I thought I made this clear already.



mconlonx said:


> To me, that indicates end of story, "...and everyone lived happily ever after." I didn't think there was anything left to say about the matter, but apparently, you thought different.


And apparently you missed my point. Probably because of poor reading comprehension or you just choose not to read it and just replied however you felt from a quick scan.



mconlonx said:


> That would be why I completely skipped your original WOT post, just recently.


Well...whatdayaknow...? Option 2 it was!


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> --mgp123 post ----
> 
> First. A lot of your points are valid. I'll get that out of the way.
> 
> ...


Yeah that guy (mgp123) is a troll. Just block him and move on.


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## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

mgp123 said:


> ...commenting bs instead of my opinion...


Sad part is this guy thinks there's a difference between the two. And that someone out there wants to hear it.

I guess there's a first for everything, in my case it's adding a user to the blocked list.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Ian_61 said:


> Sad part is this guy thinks there's a difference between the two. And that someone out there wants to hear it.
> 
> I guess there's a first for everything, in my case it's adding a user to the blocked list.


Yup, blocked the troll weeks ago...been much more peaceful on this thread since.


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Just checking in and posting pics of an NTH and a cat. It just so happens to be THE BEST sub ever produced. Go ahead, try to argue it. You're wrong. End of argument. Deal with it.










Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## Sogeha (Jul 13, 2015)

Dub Rubb said:


> Just checking in and posting pics of an NTH and a cat. It just so happens to be THE BEST sub ever produced. Go ahead, try to argue it. You're wrong. End of argument. Deal with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are talking utter rubbish 20/40+10 is the best watch ever. Though I agree they look similar, there is simply no confusing the two. Even Catface can't work up any enthusiasm for your pale imitation


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah that guy (mgp123) is a troll. Just block him and move on.


You're right. Done. Let the peace commence.

Edit: Pic. Morning coffee with the Azzuauro.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> You're right. Done. Let the peace commence.
> 
> Edit: Pic. Morning coffee with the Azzuauro.
> View attachment 15147565


That came out great!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Dub Rubb said:


> Just checking in and posting pics of an NTH and a cat. It just so happens to be THE BEST sub ever produced. Go ahead, try to argue it. You're wrong. End of argument. Deal with it.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Strongly disagree 

View attachment asd.jpg


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> That came out great!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We knew you couldn't stay away.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I have to disagree with you, Seikogi. Snowflake hands suuuuuuuuck. Different handset and that watch is stellar.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> We knew you couldn't stay away.


Just long enough for the rest of you to stop the enabling behavior!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Best looking NTH sub? Y'all are embarrassing yourselves.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

My current faves. I especially like the bezel insert on the second. The shade of blue, technically speaking, is "awesome."



















Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Woops...


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

mgp123 said:


> (snip) The majority of humans are idiots. Sheep and simps (snip)


That's one of the most disgusting things I've ever read on this or any other forum.

Ric


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## singularityseven (May 1, 2020)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Best looking NTH sub? Y'all are embarrassing yourselves.
> 
> View attachment 15147847


That is a stunning photograph. You should shoot the entire NTH catalog.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I have to disagree with you, Seikogi. Snowflake hands suuuuuuuuck. Different handset and that watch is stellar.


The NTH subs are like ice cream. All flavours are sweet yet everyone has a different favourite.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

singularityseven said:


> That is a stunning photograph. You should shoot the entire NTH catalog.


I've shot a few.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Checking in.

Hmmm... 8 pages of discussion in the last day...

Arguing about blue...

Troll got banned...

More awesome pics by uvalaw...

All caught up. Here's a watch.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Coriolanus said:


> Troll got banned...


He did? Thats, well, expected . He did basically ask for it.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Best looking NTH sub? Y'all are embarrassing yourselves.
> 
> View attachment 15147847


Close. No cigar, though.


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Not jellin' with the BoP bracelet, so back to stock. Modded yesterday, worn today, all smiles.
> 
> View attachment 15143719


This inspired me enough to order this bezel insert for a different model, and because countdown bezels just make sense for grill-diving. Nice watch!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Checking in.
> 
> Hmmm... 8 pages of discussion in the last day...
> 
> ...


That could be the perfect summary for most of all the NTH threads. Which is why I keep reading them...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

When im not wearing my Amphion. It's the other mil-sub homage.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Is it safe to come back?

That guy got banned? This is my shocked face.

Sorry about that, gentlemen, it happens sometimes. 

Also sorry I wasn't more on-the-ball as bezel-gate was unfolding. Most days, I'm either in my office, or if not, I've got enough access to the internet that I can respond more quickly, or better, before a discussion goes off the rails. 

That wasn't the case, Thursday. I spent a good chunk of the day out running errands or in Dan's shop, where the WiFi password is a mile long series of alphanumerics, which he doesn't have memorized, so I can't connect with my phone, and where I get only a weak mobile data signal, if I get one at all.

Earlier that day, I had a small debate with one of my retailers, about the bezel inserts. He wanted to promote that NTH Subs are "customizable", and as you may have guessed, I'm leery of the idea. So I was already a little on edge about them. 

My intent with making inserts available to buy was to increase my customers' convenience, and demonstrate that no one need worry about being able to buy replacements when needed. While I knew that some guys would buy them with the intent to mod their watches, I didn't expect some of what's transpired (obviously). 

Bottom line, about that blue bezel, in case it wasn't already obvious - the original insert appears to have faded since the watch was made. The new part is exactly as pictured on the website. If you buy a new bezel insert, you can be assured it will look new (and the blue will be as blue as any blue has ever been), which may mean it won't look exactly like your original bezel, depending on how old it is, and how much it may have faded.

In other news...

That good chunk of the day I spent in Dan's shop was to get the updated prototypes for the next Antilles and Azores put together, after my vendors sent us updated dials/handsets for them. I'm really happy with how they're shaping up, and looking forward to producing them. My guess is that will be early next year, so we might start showing them off later this year.

For those waiting to see more of the 2K1 Subs - we'll be revealing more over the next couple months. More versions to break cover soon.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Mmmmmyeah unless it is literally "plug and play" without any tools, then stating they're "customizable" is a really bad idea. Having to use a heatgun or whatever is way beyond accessorizing and into breakdown/tinkering.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Mmmmmyeah unless it is literally "plug and play" without any tools, then stating they're "customizable" is a really bad idea. Having to use a heatgun or whatever is way beyond accessorizing and into breakdown/tinkering.


Unless they are customized by nth you choose the bezel similar to h20 or Obris Morgan , hands etc... But I agree if they require that amount of work it's different.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

docvail said:


> In other news...
> 
> That good chunk of the day I spent in Dan's shop was to get the updated prototypes for the next Antilles and Azores put together, after my vendors sent us updated dials/handsets for them. I'm really happy with how they're shaping up, and looking forward to producing them. My guess is that will be early next year, so we might start showing them off later this year.


This puts them right before a good time for my wife to buy me a 20th anniversary gift. Excellent.

Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Is it safe to come back?
> 
> That guy got banned? This is my shocked face.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'll have to agree it's a bad idea to promote the subs as "customizable". That entails some level of simplicity in my eyes. And while most of us here are capable enough with small things like bezel inserts, someone, somewhere will inevitably toast their watch and expect a free repair or refund. I know folks who can't even read a tape measure, let alone operate a high powered hair dryer. And I work in the trades.

Now as for the v2 Tropics.... I already knew they were coming. I'm pretty sure I "voted" for those to be the first new project. I missed the boat on the original line, and I've only had one come up for sale through my alerts. So needless to say, I was a bit bummed when they lost the battle and were slated to be the last new project. But damn you for giving us an estimated delivery of early next year! Now I've gotta sit here, knowing they're coming, but still so far away! Oh well... I'm anxious for new 2K1 renders and now I've got the Tropics renders to look forward to.


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## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> Is it safe to come back?
> 
> That guy got banned? This is my shocked face.
> 
> ...


Is that the same guy who was harassing you in the original NTH thread? Seemed like it. If he's from my neck of the woods (MN) let me know and I'll kick his ass for you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> Is that the same guy who was harassing you in the original NTH thread? Seemed like it. If he's from my neck of the woods (MN) let me know and I'll kick his ass for you.


Just another in a long line of journeymen who wanted to be a sparring partner.

Some days, it seems like everyone wants to take a swing at me.

Must be something about my face.


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Cheers Doc..... The cake may be a lie, but the gilt Rox my sox off.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Cheers Doc..... The cake may be a lie, but the gilt Rox my sox off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...









don't care. Gimme cake.


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15149653
> don't care. Gimme cake.


What exactly did you want to do to that cake?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

caktaylor said:


> What exactly did you want to do to that cake?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15149739


That is not what the second picture looks like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

caktaylor said:


> That is not what the second picture looks like.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You sick, but funny bastard :roll:


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Never knew PVD could fade, very cool. Now if the dial will also fade, that would be extremely cool. In 5 -10 years you could have a rather nice "vintage " looking watch.


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15149653
> don't care. Gimme cake.


Great. Now I have to go back and play Portal.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

caktaylor said:


> What exactly did you want to do to that cake?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 didn't even pick up on that, but wow. And I thought my mind was always in the gutter. Well played.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

Wow what did I miss?! tea bagging a cake, trolls, and other fun. Here's NTH blue- no question BLUE. ...and also one of the best.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Oyster?







Or Beads of Poop?


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

dmjonez said:


> That could be the perfect summary for most of all the NTH threads. Which is why I keep reading them...


He forgot my musings on the great Yves Klein and allusions to 17th century Rosicrucian metaphysics. Although I guess that comes under "arguing about blue".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> Never knew PVD could fade, very cool. Now if the dial will also fade, that would be extremely cool. In 5 -10 years you could have a rather nice "vintage " looking watch.


Honestly, I didn't know PVD could fade, either, not that I ever thought about it.

I don't know if it's all PVD. The black inserts are DLC, for whatever that's worth. They may not fade, or if they do, may not fade as quickly. I wonder about the other colors, like the browns used on the Barracuda and Holland.

About 5 years ago, I had a customer whose blue Acionna was seriously faded. It happened quickly, too - in just about six months. I'd never seen anything like it. The dial, bezel (and strap) looked years old.

I asked watchmakers and factories - they all said that it must have been prematurely faded from prolonged exposure to the sun. The watch must have been stored on a window sill. The factory said that the blue pigments were particularly susceptible to fade.

---

That was actually a "fun customer" story, too. The watch was a gift from a woman to her husband. She contacted me about it fading. I asked for a pic so I could see what she meant. The pic was taken from laughably far away, and somewhat out of focus, but it did look like the dial and strap had faded. But then again, for all I knew, the whole picture was washed out.

I asked her to send it back, so I could see it in person, and figure out what to do. When we got it back, the strap still looked brand new. It clearly wasn't the same strap from the pic I got. The one in the picture looked yellowish tan. This was dark brown. I looked in my order record, and saw that she had also bought a replacement strap.

When I asked her if they'd changed the strap after taking the picture she'd sent, she said she hadn't. Okayyy.... I asked if the watch was kept in the sun, and she said it wasn't.

It definitely wasn't "defective". Both the dial and the bezel had faded equally. If either part was defective, there's no way they'd both end up in the same watch. And, if the watch had "barely been worn" (based on the now-pristine strap), and wasn't kept out in the sun, how could the dial and bezel fade so much in just six months?

I told her that color-fade wasn't covered under warranty, as it was "normal wear and tear", but that I'd have the dial and bezel replaced for her anyway, as a courtesy.

She wouldn't have it. She was livid. It wasn't enough that I was going to replace the dial and bezel. I had to admit that they were defective, and it should be a warranty repair. She actually told me NOT to replace them, and send the watch back, just as it was.

---

Until recently, I'd never seen any other watch that seemed to have faded so much more quickly than we might expect. But not too long ago, my local watchmaker had this Oris in his shop. He told me it was originally a blue dial. I think it's a TT1. That model isn't that old, considering what the "blue" dial now looks like.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Oyster?
> 
> Or Beads of Poop?


Beads of poop.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Oyster?
> View attachment 15151263
> 
> Or Beads of Poop?
> View attachment 15151265


Oyster. And I love me some BoP.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Oyster?
> View attachment 15151263
> 
> Or Beads of Poop?
> View attachment 15151265


Oyster in a heartbeat

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ike2 said:


> He forgot my musings on the great Yves Klein and allusions to 17th century Rosicrucian metaphysics. Although I guess that comes under "arguing about blue".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't forget, but I was grossly remiss for not mentioning it. Once again, why I like this thread. Most other threads are just silly discussions about "does this look too big on me" or "where can I get one of these watches for less money."

I'm here for the "what color is blue" for the long run. Complete with Wikipedia articles.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I didn't forget, but I was grossly remiss for not mentioning it. Once again, why I like this thread. Most other threads are just silly discussions about "does this look too big on me" or "where can I get one of these watches for less money."
> 
> I'm here for the "what color is blue" for the long run. Complete with Wikipedia articles.


The blue of that Boeing logo in your sig is lovely.

What blue is that?


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Oyster?
> View attachment 15151263
> 
> Or Beads of Poop?
> View attachment 15151265


IMO oyster.

Reason is the watch has a lot (perfect amount) going on with the Cali dial, index markers, two tone, etc so the oyster balances it out.

On the other hand, you could lean into that look and go BoP which I also think looks really good.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> The blue of that Boeing logo in your sig is lovely.
> 
> What blue is that?


Boing-boing blue.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I wonder if the guest WOTer got his watches listed and sold. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

what was posted:

food fights
trolling
what is blue?
parts
wots
feelings
bans

what i took away from it all:

updated v2 tropics are on the table for consideration in 2020


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> I wonder if the guest WOTer got his watches listed and sold.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not here. He only made it to 45 posts. Quite ironic when a stated purpose was to "get to 100 posts in order to post an add", and then couldn't stay peaceful enough to do just that. lqtm


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> The blue of that Boeing logo in your sig is lovely.
> 
> What blue is that?


You notice how the Airbus and Boeing logos are different shades of blue? Or ARE they, really?

Along those lines, I should find out this week what I'll be flying next year. My money's on a Tupolev.


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

on that dave, i'm reading but not posting consistently these days, so advance notice on memorial day weekend to you, doc, gabe and all that have served (and sacrificed)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> You notice how the Airbus and Boeing logos are different shades of blue? Or ARE they, really?
> 
> Along those lines, I should find out this week what I'll be flying next year. My money's on a Tupolev.


No idea what a Tupolev is, but it sure looks misspelled.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> You notice how the Airbus and Boeing logos are different shades of blue? Or ARE they, really?
> 
> Along those lines, I should find out this week what I'll be flying next year. My money's on a Tupolev.


Who the hell do you fly for that has Tupolevs in its fleet? Imma go out on a limb and say Tu-204? That or you're being completely sarcastic...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> on that dave, i'm reading but not posting consistently these days, so advance notice on memorial day weekend to you, doc, gabe and all that have served (and sacrificed)
> 
> View attachment 15151681


I never paid much attention to the distinctions between Veteran's Day and Memorial Day until all the people on Facebook decided the rest of us needed to know that Memorial day is for those killed in service, and Veteran's Day is for those who served.

Seems like that would be obvious from the name, making the FB posts kinda pointless, but whatevs, I'll step aside for Memorial Day, since I didn't die in service.

When Veteran's Day rolls around, don't anyone feel compelled to thank me. I had pretty easy duty, all things considered. Never in combat, always stationed pretty close to the beach, made some good friends, got in shape, and they paid off my college loans. I spent 2 out of 5.5 years in training, for crying out loud, meaning I only did actual work the other 3.5. As a medic, I can only remember responding to a real "emergency", life-and-death (or serious injury) situation once.

The biggest catch was I had to put up with someone yelling at me every few days, whether I deserved it or not (and of course, spend time out in the woods with all the icky things what lived there). The biggest threat to my life was some horrendous BO from a couple of guys in my platoon.

All in all, it was a pretty good deal, for me. I'm sure the American people got the shorter end of the stick on that one.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Who the hell do you fly for that has Tupolevs in its fleet? Imma go out on a limb and say Tu-204? That or you're being completely sarcastic...


Sarcasm it is. True story: my employer is known to buy most any aircraft made. A few years back, I pulled into the gate somewhere in South America, beside one of the local airliners. My First Officer and I noticed that the aircraft wasn't one we recognized, which was rare. I saw there was activity in the cockpit, so I asked the pilot what type jet it was, and he responded without hesitation, "It's a Tupolev, we hear you guys are getting them..." Tupolev is a Russian type, and jumped into the regional airline market a few years ago.

I'm pretty senior, but by choice I fly what I'd call one of the "second tier" aircraft. Our fleet roughly falls into: Ultra-long haul (9000 mile range), long haul (6000 mile range), medium range, and short range. There are several types in each group, and I fly primarily to Europe and South America, occasionally to Africa. The "ultra" guys fly to Asia, and I like my trips better.
But we're about to go through a big shuffle due to this virus-thing, and most of the super long-haul guys might retire.

And like Doc, I appreciate the Memorial Day wishes, but I too came through unscathed. I was digging around in my home office the other day, and found my Dad's blood chits. They were images of the flag and text roughly stating in several languages: "My aircraft is destroyed, if you help me get to friendly forces, my government will repay you."

However annoying things are right now, those who have gone before went through quite a great deal. And that's why I don't let different shades of blue upset me....


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

My bad. Picture of a watch. A blue one.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Mmmmmyeah unless it is literally "plug and play" without any tools, then stating they're "customizable" is a really bad idea. Having to use a heatgun or whatever is way beyond accessorizing and into breakdown/tinkering.


Yep. Seikos are "customizable" in the same way. You can "customize" your SKX with hacking and hand-winding, new bezels, inserts, chapter rings, crystals, hands, date wheel color changes, dials, basically anything you want. You're not going to see Gnomon or Long Island Watch advertising them as "customizable," because doing half that stuff requires specialized watchmaker tools, and you could very easily end up with an SKX paperweight.

I also wouldn't be surprised if most micros could get you a bezel insert in a different color than the one your diver came with. Inserts are the part most likely to be scratched or fail, so it's very likely that they have a stock of replacements. I never asked, but I wouldn't be shocked if, for example, you wanted a black bezel for your blue/steel Oceanking, you could get one from Monta. That doesn't make the Oceanking "customizable." It's just a difference of "I can order one from the NTH website" vs. "I have to ask NTH for one."


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> I didn't forget, but I was grossly remiss for not mentioning it. Once again, why I like this thread. Most other threads are just silly discussions about "does this look too big on me" or "where can I get one of these watches for less money."
> 
> I'm here for the "what color is blue" for the long run. Complete with Wikipedia articles.


Indeed Dave, dial in the relentless trouser-bursting humour too and the World is a really good place after all.

Cheerz,

Alan


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> You notice how the Airbus and Boeing logos are different shades of blue? Or ARE they, really?
> 
> Along those lines, I should find out this week what I'll be flying next year. My money's on a Tupolev.


DON'T go near this one.......









Ain't no good in a bunt......

Cheerz,

Alan


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I actually followed up on the Rosicrucian aspect, had no idea about the Yves Klein relationship. I believe the organization he contacted in the US is still around, AMORC. 

Was never a fan of monochromatic art, but can see how it is important in the world, especially that blue. In an earlier discussion about Vantablack, I mentioned that there is a company offering up a more widely available ultra-black pigment, Culture Hustle, which also does other colors, metallic pigments, and... glow in the dark powders. They claim they are the brightest, but I wonder how they stack up to lume in the watch world.

In any case, interesting stuff from a thread about a brand of watches. Love the tangents...


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> View attachment 15151933


The French reads:



> "I am an American aviator.
> My airplane is destroyed.
> I cannot speak your language.
> I am an enemy of the Japanese.*
> ...


* I wonder what the Japanese version says. :-d
** In this context, it's more like "reward" I suspect.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Ol skool Orthos ii








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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

3WR said:


> I wonder if the guest WOTer got his watches listed and sold.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya know, he was banned once before, for only a day or two. I'm hoping this is a Perma-Ban. I don't usually cheer when others are in trouble, but I'll gladly make an exception for him.


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## HomebrewMTB (Feb 5, 2009)

This thread be like:

"Hey, that's a nice watch"
"Ooo, and another"
"Yeah, I'd hit that"
TLDR;
TLDR;
TLDR;
TLDR;
"More nice watches"
"Nice watch"
"I like that strap on that nice watch"
"BOP"
"Blue"
TLDR; TLDR;Troll; TLDR; Troll; TLDR; TLDR; TLDR; TLDR; for 19 pages; 
[BAN HAMMER]
"More poop"
"Nice watch"

Anyway, here is my contribution...

On the way back from picking it up at Post Office.








A heart of gold!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I like the Readers Digest version of this thread forum, whatever shade of blue you want to call it.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

ck2k01 said:


> Ya'll know what time it is: debating-ending DevilRay time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apologies if this has been already covered (still catching up with the thread), but which version of the Devilray is this? Looks like the black dial version but that comes with a gray chapter ring.

I love the orange chapter ring, looks great!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Sarcasm it is. True story: my employer is known to buy most any aircraft made. A few years back, I pulled into the gate somewhere in South America, beside one of the local airliners. My First Officer and I noticed that the aircraft wasn't one we recognized, which was rare. I saw there was activity in the cockpit, so I asked the pilot what type jet it was, and he responded without hesitation, "It's a Tupolev, we hear you guys are getting them..." Tupolev is a Russian type, and jumped into the regional airline market a few years ago.
> 
> I'm pretty senior, but by choice I fly what I'd call one of the "second tier" aircraft. Our fleet roughly falls into: Ultra-long haul (9000 mile range), long haul (6000 mile range), medium range, and short range. There are several types in each group, and I fly primarily to Europe and South America, occasionally to Africa. The "ultra" guys fly to Asia, and I like my trips better.
> But we're about to go through a big shuffle due to this virus-thing, and most of the super long-haul guys might retire.
> ...


WTF?!?!?

Is that what they do for pilots???

I've never heard of that for regular enlisted dudes in combat.

Effing gold-bricking, spoiled, fancy-pants flyboys...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> Apologies if this has been already covered (still catching up with the thread), but which version of the Devilray is this? Looks like the black dial version but that comes with a gray chapter ring.
> 
> I love the orange chapter ring, looks great!


That was the 15-piece LE we did for Watch Gauge.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> I actually followed up on the Rosicrucian aspect, had no idea about the Yves Klein relationship. I believe the organization he contacted in the US is still around, AMORC.
> 
> Was never a fan of monochromatic art, but can see how it is important in the world, especially that blue. [snip]
> 
> In any case, interesting stuff from a thread about a brand of watches. Love the tangents...


Then I will stretch the Yves Klein blue aspect just a bit more. He famously said his color of blue was meant to suggest sea and sky, and help viewers bathe in a "cosmic sensibility". Unbenknownst to me when I made my Kickstarter purchase a couple months ago, Sergio DiRenzo, the man behind Direnzo watches, said his new DRZ 03 "Eclipse" model is meant to convey "a connection between sea and space." Could there be a cosmic sensibility at work here in inspiring me to buy this watch? Is there any doubt which color I chose?








Then again, maybe I just like blue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

That's like, your opinion man

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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

Not blue ....but just as nice


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

hwa said:


> That's like, your opinion man
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That really ties the room together.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> WTF?!?!?
> 
> Is that what they do for pilots???
> 
> ...


I was issued blood chits early on in the wars (meaning each of my first tours in Afghanistan and Iraq). Didn't get to keep them though. They were serial numbered, inventoried, and keep under tight accountability. I was never explicitly told why, but I always figured it was because:

1) The serial number was associated with each service member's identity, so if someone ever showed up with it looking for cash, we'd know who they got it from.
2) It was essentially money. They're even printed on the same linen stuff that we make dollars out of.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Since we're talking about Memorial Day, and since I go through this every year...

Jason Wildfong
Joe Robsky
Kris Shepherd
Russ Verdugo
Steve Langmack
Josh Mattero
Kermit Evans
Miles Lankford
Esau Gonzales
Jay McMahon
Neil Morrison
John Maner

Nine of them were killed in action. Three committed suicide after multiple combat tours. They were all my friends. They left behind parents, and wives, and kids. 

I remember the last conversation that I had with every one of these guys. Jay Wildfong and I were drunk in a strip club. Josh Mattero and I were sitting on the roof of his MRAP in Diyala Province in Iraq late one night maybe a month before he was killed, looking at the sky and talking about home. I've learned the hard way never to let a conversation with a friend end in a way that I might regret later. Russ and I were arguing about something stupid in Kandahar. I won the argument, and I was an arrogant [email protected]#$ about it. I wish I hadn't been. 

I'll see them all again on the high ground.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tycho Brahe said:


> Not blue ....but just as nice


What's with the shirt?

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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> Since we're talking about Memorial Day, and since I go through this every year...
> 
> Jason Wildfong
> Joe Robsky
> ...


Yes my friend, you will. Stay strong for them. Live each day in their honor. I got your 6 if you ever need a battle buddy.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Since we're talking about Memorial Day, and since I go through this every year...
> 
> Jason Wildfong
> Joe Robsky
> ...


I'll drink a toast to these men today. And all those who gave all.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Morning watch pic


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> I'll drink a toast to these men today. And all those who gave all.


Amen! 
Thanks to you Coriolanus for your Service & your comrades for their ultimate sacrifice....


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> I'll drink a toast to these men today. And all those who gave all.


double post. removed.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Riiiiight..........


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So heres a watch pic.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

I know that everything you wrote in that little tantrum was intended to make us all mad. And maybe I was, for just a second. But that moment has passed, and now I just feel sorry for you.

You went through the trouble of creating a new account just to come back to this thread and tell us... that you're not coming back to this thread. But you did. And you will again, because you need to.

When you do, and when you're reading this, please take the advice that I'm about to offer as sincere:

Rethink your life. I don't know you, but I know some things about you. I know that your current approach to dealing with people hasn't been working out well for you. That's not going to change. I've seen this movie before. Right now we're at the part where you're still living at your mom's house. Fast forward a bit and you're on the side of the road at a stoplight, holding a cardboard sign. Fast forward again to the last ten minutes, and you lose. At life. 

There's no surprise ending. You don't win the lottery. You don't get your big break. You don't meet the woman who understands who you really are inside. It's a straight line to the bottom.

Now go away, think about it for a while, then try to do better. For your own sake and for the sake of anyone who still cares about you. I wish you the best of luck.

P.S. The troll's post was removed, so this response probably doesn't make a lot of sense to folks who are just catching up. But I'm leaving it here so he'll see it when he comes lurking back. Everyone else may not get it, but he will.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

modsRgay said:


> Go on and report me to the mods


Way ahead of you. Let me see if I can recall the timeline here. Guy is a troll, leaves, comes back, then is banned. In several case while in the midst of trolling, professes not to be one, and complains that criticism is somehow not allowed, which anyone who's spent any time here knows is ridiculous. So far, the only thing I recall we being politely asked not to criticize is *other* microbrands, for the very sensible reason that this is not the appropriate place for that, and that it puts Doc in an unfair position with something associated with his brand being used to criticize direct competitors, even if he isn't the one responsible.

Then the guy goes through the effort to make a new account, just to "tell us off" and goes full mask off in one of the most juvenile and pathetic excuses for a "response" I've seen outside of YouTube comments.

In the unlikely event that this user is around long enough to read this, by all means, sell all of your NTH watches. I am 100% sure that Doc does not need, and most certainly does not want you as a customer.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Fancy foodie pic. Am I doing this right? 










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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Well the mods got rid of that one most ricky tick


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

One more in softer light...










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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> I know that everything you wrote in that little tantrum was intended to make us all mad. And maybe I was, for just a second. But that moment has passed, and now I just feel sorry for you.
> 
> You went through the trouble of creating a new account just to come back to this thread and tell us... that you're not coming back to this thread. But you did. And you will again, because you need to.
> 
> ...


That, my friend, is the best post I've ever read on WUS.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Well the mods got rid of that one most ricky tick


The mods have tools to stop banned members from returning under other names.

Sometimes I can identify a WUS user and connect them to their real name with a little sleuthing. I can look at my order records and connect the transaction dates to their posts, or ask one of my retailers to help by looking at their order records, or I can connect someone's posts here to their posts on Instagram or Facebook.

It's unusual that someone is first a customer, then starts trolling, or even vice-versa, but it has happened a handful of times. I'm positive I know who 2 out of the 3 I'm thinking of are, and I'm pretty sure I know who the 3rd is, too.

In the back of my mind, there's always the possibility I'll "out" someone, if things get ugly enough, but so far, it's never happened. I'm not sure that I ever would, even if someone was just a relentless troll. I always (eventually) end up at the same point - nothing you say or do to them is going to get them to change their ways. The only thing you can do is ignore them, and hope they'll lose interest, or get banned.

What I find interesting, though, is how often someone's behavior while they believe themselves to be "anonymous" is out of sync with their behavior when their actions and comments may have consequences, however mild or unlikely.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I swear I'm not obsessing over this. It's just that something weird jumped out at me.

I was curious to know how many times he'd posted in this thread. According to the thread stats, it was 94 times.









My first thought was, "Wow, he almost made it to the magic 100 posts number. He got so close, only to get banned right before the finish line. Oh, the irony..."

But then I thought, "Wait a minute, that doesn't seem right. Didn't his post count next to his user name say something in the 40's? He couldn't have been posting only in this thread, could he have been?"

Sure enough, his profile has a much lower figure:









So...now I'm wondering - did he have almost 50 posts removed, just from THIS thread, or is the forum's "who posted in this thread, and how many times" counter just that far off?

If he had almost 50 posts removed from this thread, it makes me wonder how many of his posts the mods had to remove from the forum, in total.

If he really did have almost 50 posts (or perhaps many more) removed, then the mods were either amazingly tolerant (if they were getting involved over and over again, with various instances spread out over time), or he really must have been speed-posting.

Was he speed-trolling? Is that a thing?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> In the back of my mind, there's always the possibility I'll "out" someone, if things get ugly enough, but so far, it's never happened. I'm not sure that I ever would, even if someone was just a relentless troll. I always (eventually) end up at the same point - nothing you say or do to them is going to get them to change their ways. The only thing you can do is ignore them, and hope they'll lose interest, or get banned.
> 
> What I find interesting, though, is how often someone's behavior while they believe themselves to be "anonymous" is out of sync with their behavior when their actions and comments may have consequences, however mild or unlikely.


I think the latter approach is better. Doxxing anyone very often makes whoever outed the person look quite bad themselves. The anonymity thing is sort of like the change in how some people act while driving vs. not. Some people feel like they have a lot more license to be a complete a-hole if they have a 4,000 pound shield around them.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Maybe when you get put in temporary time out, the post count under your name restarts. So ~45 posts since then vs ~45 posts since joining forum. ??


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Should we start a pool on when/if he'll be back?


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Its not hard to spot trolls and block them. What I find more troublesome on fora is that there always seems to be a fairly large group of regulars who repeat ad astra the same myths or state half truths / wrong information as fact. 
I used to respond more often to such statements and took too long to realize that its pointless.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> What I find interesting, though, is how often someone's behavior while they believe themselves to be "anonymous" is out of sync with their behavior when their actions and comments may have consequences, however mild or unlikely.


This. It's the same thing we see with people act rudely while driving in traffic. The sense of anonymity brings out peoples' true nature.

A few months back I was up in Winter Park, FL, heading, as it so happens, to Orlando Watch Co. to drop a watch off for servicing. Winter Park is a higher-end Orlando suburb, and the area where OWC is at is pretty nice. Brick paver streets lined with parallel parked Porsches and Mercedes, nice houses, old growth oak trees with moss hanging. You get the idea.

It's hard to find a spot to part near OWC, but it's not an area where you mind walking a few blocks. There's a train station there too, with tracks that run across a few of the roads. A train was leaving the station and the barrier was down, so I stopped on the sidewalk while it passed. Next to me on the road, a guy in a Mercedes was waiting too.

This dude was more angry than I think I've ever seen another human being. He was pounding on his steering wheel, face flushed, neck veins bulging. His windows were up and the train was passing so I couldn't hear anything, but I'm certain he was in his car screaming at the top of his lungs. Maybe dude just had somewhere he really needed to be, but I couldn't help looking at him and thinking, "man, what could be so bad about that guy's life right now?" Or maybe he just had a head full of broken glass that he didn't let people see from day to day. But in his car, there it was. I also wondered what he must have been like on the road.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I think the latter approach is better. Doxxing anyone very often makes whoever outed the person look quite bad themselves. The anonymity thing is sort of like the change in how some people act while driving vs. not. Some people feel like they have a lot more license to be a complete a-hole if they have a 4,000 pound shield around them.


Oh, I shouldn't have implied that I'd dox someone, with all their relevant info, though that's likely how it sounded.

I simply meant, there's a reason most of us use made-up user names online. On some level, we seem to anticipate the risk of being too transparent, and would prefer no one know our true identities.

For some of us, that seems to be a license to act like an a-hole. So, if I were to address someone by their real name, it sends a subtle signal, with an implied (and hopefully inferred) message - "I know exactly who you are, and if you want to keep acting $hltty, there may be further repercussions, so chill out."

Not that I'd dox someone just for trolling. But I do think it would help the situation if the guy knows that I know who he is, if it means he thinks twice about trolling, perhaps wondering how his potential support request may be handled in the future, as an example of what sort of implications can come from the realization that he is not, in fact, anonymous, to me.

It's the anonymity that seems to drive trolling (though not always). Remove the anonymity, remove the license, and very often, see the behavior corrected.



Coriolanus said:


> This. It's the same thing we see with people act rudely while driving in traffic. The sense of anonymity brings out peoples' true nature.
> 
> A few months back I was up in Winter Park, FL, heading, as it so happens, to Orlando Watch Co. to drop a watch off for servicing. Winter Park is a higher-end Orlando suburb, and the area where OWC is at is pretty nice. Brick paver streets lined with parallel parked Porsches and Mercedes, nice houses, old growth oak trees with moss hanging. You get the idea.
> 
> ...


It's endlessly interesting to me how our perceptions are impacted when we inject economics into the equation.

Put that guy in a $hlt-box car, you're less likely to imagine him as an overly-rich, impatient a-hole, and more likely to simply imagine him as a working stiff trying to get home for dinner, or make some appointment, or get anywhere, with no time to spare while waiting for a passing train.

In all likelihood, maybe the guy was an overly-entitled, overly-rich a-hole, but it's also possible his wife or kid was admitted to the emergency room, and he was frantically trying to get to the hospital, or he was on his way to pick up his kid from daycare, or just going home after a long, tiring day.

This is what drives me up the wall about people who deliberately hold others up on the road, by driving slow in the passing lane, among other vehicular discourtesies.

While that rude driver is smugly thinking they're simply frustrating another driver, who they no doubt also perceive as rude, for flashing their headlights and trying to pass, they have no way of knowing if the person they're slowing down isn't responding to some emergency, or is merely trying to get home in time to see their family after working a double-shift, before their kids go to sleep, or their spouse leaves for their own job.

The little things unhappy people do to spread their misery to others will be returned to them tenfold, if there's any justice in the universe.









EDIT / BONUS IMAGE, for all the guys here, who drive on the left side of the road.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’m sure everyone is tired of me repeating this but...



If everyone around you is an axxhole,

It ain’t them.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I wish there had been a sub version that had a red bezel insert with C3 lume.... I find myself wondering how it'd look on this.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

No red PVD from our vendors, so no red steel bezels, I'm afraid.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

docvail said:


> No red PVD from our vendors, so no red steel bezels, I'm afraid.


hi docvail, in the same vein....

the Amphion Vintage Guilt is very attractive looking to me. in the specs section it mentions -10/+30 spd. this looks like the Miyota 9015/90s5 datasheet spec. Does NTH do anything to adjust & regulate the movement after casing so that it gives better accuracy? No info on this on your website or on Watchgauge.com. please advise. thanks.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

bombaywalla said:


> hi docvail, in the same vein....
> 
> the Amphion Vintage Guilt is very attractive looking to me. in the specs section it mentions -10/+30 spd. this looks like the Miyota 9015/90s5 datasheet spec. Does NTH do anything to adjust & regulate the movement after casing so that it gives better accuracy? No info on this on your website or on Watchgauge.com. please advise. thanks.


Info is on website in multiple places. Tells you what the movement is, what the specs are, and tells you he warrants the movement to meet mfr specs. See the warranty, operation and maintenance, tech specs.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bombaywalla said:


> hi docvail, in the same vein....
> 
> the Amphion Vintage Guilt is very attractive looking to me. in the specs section it mentions -10/+30 spd. this looks like the Miyota 9015/90s5 datasheet spec. Does NTH do anything to adjust & regulate the movement after casing so that it gives better accuracy? No info on this on your website or on Watchgauge.com. please advise. thanks.


We regulate all of them to within 1/2 of the manufacturer's accuracy spec during QC. But your on the wrist accuracy may vary, based on your wearing habits.

If accuracy is of the utmost importance to someone, I recommend they consider a quartz watch.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> Info is on website in multiple places. Tells you what the movement is, what the specs are, and tells you he warrants the movement to meet mfr specs. See the warranty, operation and maintenance, tech specs.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


As an aside, both of mine tend to run within +4-6spd on average.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The problem is that people get fixated on that one number or range, and don't know the conditions under which it came about.

A watch could be regulated to run within 6 secs per day, on average, among 4 positions, when tested at full power. But you might find it runs nowhere near that well when you look at your on-the-wrist/off-the-wrist performance over a 24 hour period. 

You can't regulate away the variance that comes from someone's wearing habits before you even know what those habits are. If you're running it at low power, because you're not moving around enough, and you're not hand-winding it, and it's spending a lot of time in just one or two positions, your measured performance could be wildly different than what we see when we test it the correct way (at full power, on a timegrapher, in multiple positions, etc).

We don't get many complaints about accuracy, but when we do, we ask to see a timegrapher report, showing the watch isn't running within spec. 

In seven years, and after more than 7000 watches sold, we still have yet to see one. 


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I wish there had been a sub version that had a red bezel insert with C3 lume.... I find myself wondering how it'd look on this.


As Doc has mentioned, red unfortunately isn't possible for them to do. _That being said_, if you were to put a suitable Seiko insert on it, then it would look like this.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> As Doc has mentioned, red unfortunately isn't possible for them to do. _That being said_, if you were to put a suitable Seiko insert on it, then it would look like this.
> 
> View attachment 15155763


Thanks man! I dunno... That just seems... too red.

Maybe it's simply the photoshop, maybe it's my dreamer mind refusing to accept that it doesn't look that good? Maybe it's the white on the bezel doesn't match the off white of the dial?

Maybe it's Maybelline?!

Edit: and an NTH insert on an NTH watch is one thing. But I'd never defile my Tikuna with a Seiko bezel insert.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Thanks man! I dunno... That just seems... too red.
> 
> Maybe it's simply the photoshop, maybe it's my dreamer mind refusing to accept that it doesn't look that good? Maybe it's the white on the bezel doesn't match the off white of the dial?
> 
> ...


Thats a Rolex. You'd need to find a Tudor BB Red for 7S26-0040. SKX031 IIRC.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Thanks man! I dunno... That just seems... too red.
> 
> Maybe it's simply the photoshop, maybe it's my dreamer mind refusing to accept that it doesn't look that good? Maybe it's the white on the bezel doesn't match the off white of the dial?
> 
> ...


Yeah I don't think a bright red bezel would be a great fit for the Tikuna. Other black NTH watches sure, but it's too modern looking in this particular case. I also don't love the mismatch between the yellowish C3 and white markers on the bezel.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Thats a Rolex. You'd need to find a Tudor BB Red for 7S26-0040. SKX031 IIRC.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup. This one from Yobokies I think. The other mod shops don't bother making 031 bezels because it's a discontinued model. Closest thing to a red NTH bezel, but still not a great fit for Tikuna I don't think. That watch needs either black or pure stainless steel.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*What if....* NTH bezels used quarter numbers?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I can't remember if the lume on the dial of the Tikuna is C3, or "natural", which sometimes looks more yellow, depending on the color of the underlying surface. I'm not in my office to look it up. 

The red lines and text are a darker red. Pantone 187 C, I think. A little red goes a long way, I find, and darkening it up keeps it from being too much. 

If you could find an SKX031 bezel in dark red, with C3 lume, that might look better.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> *What if....* NTH bezels used quarter numbers?
> 
> View attachment 15156015


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> As an aside, both of mine tend to run within +4-6spd on average.


ok, thanks for this info.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


>


Fair enough. Personally I kinda dig the 15/30/45 look on these. More so than my prior Zodiac-ified Renegade, I think.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bombaywalla said:


> ok, thanks for this info.


For whatever it's worth, if you're going to be concerned with accuracy in a mechanical watch, read this - https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news/watch-geeks-and-the-zen-of-accuracy.

Think of the accuracy spec the way a car manufacturer says your car will go 300 miles on a tank full of fuel.

How do they know? Is that guaranteed? Don't your driving habits or other variables have something to do with it?

The 300 miles is an estimated average or all drivers' experience. You may get a little less, or a little more, based on how much time you spend in traffic, how fast you go on the highway, how well you maintain your car, your tire pressure, your altitude, the local terrain, the fuel you put in it, etc.

Suppose you find that you're only getting 280 to a tank. Does that mean the car is defective, or that the brand needs to do something about it? Probably not. Somewhere out there is a guy getting 320, probably because his driving habits lead to better fuel efficiency than yours.

Accuracy in a mechanical watch is much the same. That spec is a range of numbers. Those numbers are an average of the daily rates (seconds gained or lost over a 24 hour period) in a certain number of specific positions (out of 6 possible), when measured at full power...

...As in, the numbers are not literally the time gained or lost over a 24 hour period (so, we don't really care what your mobile app says on the topic), but a multiplication of how many seconds are being gained or lost at that exact instant when the measurement was done. That rate can and will change, even while someone is sitting there watching the readings on the timegrapher.

Those numbers, for each position, need to be within a certain range of each other, and the watch is allowed to drift outside that range, by a certain amount, as it winds down.

So, yeah, the Miyota spec sheet for the 9015 states that the movement should have an average daily rate of -10 to +30 seconds per day, and we regulate to 1/2 of that during QC. But, that range isn't the only value being measured, and so it's not the only value we look at.

The movement is adjusted to 4 (out of 6) positions, and has to have under 40 seconds/day of "posture difference" between those 4 readings, and that accuracy range *could* double as the watch winds down from full power to a dead stop (not that we've found that).

So, like I said, even if we regulate a watch to run within 6 seconds per day, that's going to be an average, of however many positions (depending on the movement), when tested at full power. You might find that the watch, which is running VERY well, doesn't perform that way, on YOUR wrist (and off), because you're running it at low power, or it's spending most of its time in positions where it's not performing at its best.

That's not the watch's fault (or ours), it's due to your wearing (and possibly storing) habits.

All that said - we almost never get accuracy complaints, since we started regulating them more in QC. Even before that, all (100%) of the accuracy complaints we got were from guys whose watches were actually running within the stated spec, but weren't amazingly accurate - 20 seconds per day, as an example, but they read that someone on line was seeing 2 seconds per day, and they want that sort of performance, too, even though we can't guarantee it.

Our experience with the Miyota 9 series is that the accuracy specs are VERY conservative. We've also found that they seem to be very stable, not affected much by posture changes, and resistant to isochronism (loss of accuracy as they wind down). They also seem to be very efficient auto-winders, which helps.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Yes! Excellent! Let’s do THIS again!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Fair enough. Personally I kinda dig the 15/30/45 look on these. More so than my prior Zodiac-ified Renegade, I think.


Me too, its one of my favorite things about the Monta OK


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Me too, its one of my favorite things about the Monta OK


Next I think I'll try a Breitling SOH style no numbers insert.


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

Working from home and on a looong conference call....that gives me time to take a pic of my latest addition. (no rude people or shades of blue were included or referenced...AND it is as accurate as I need it to be)


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

docvail said:


> For whatever it's worth, if you're going to be concerned with accuracy in a mechanical watch, read this - https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news/watch-geeks-and-the-zen-of-accuracy.
> 
> Think of the accuracy spec the way a car manufacturer says your car will go 300 miles on a tank full of fuel.
> 
> ...


docvail, thanks for the more detailed info.
if i remember correctly the Miyota 9xxx series auto-winds in the counter-clockwise direction only & freely spins in the clockwise direction...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bombaywalla said:


> docvail, thanks for the more detailed info.
> if i remember correctly the Miyota 9xxx series auto-winds in the counter-clockwise direction only & freely spins in the clockwise direction...


Yes.

My understanding is that the unidirectional winding allows the movement to be thinner, and adds less wear and tear to the auto-winding mechanism.

While some believe uni-directional winders are less efficient than bi-directional ones, I beg to differ, at least as far as the Miyota 9's go. They seem to be extremely efficient auto-winders.

As bonus, if you flick your wrist just right, you can get the rotor spinning in the non-winding direction, the watch-geek's version of a fidget-spinner. Hours of good, clean fun.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> My understanding is that the unidirectional winding allows the movement to be thinner, and adds less wear and tear to the auto-winding mechanism.
> 
> ...


lol! yeah, does look like a fidget-spinner in the non-winding direction... 

i thought about this earlier but did not write it but........
you wrote & your website also states the 4 positions you adjust + regulate NTH watches -face-up (CH), 3H, 9H & 6H. 
I consider the 3-9 as 1 axis & the 12-6 as another axis. 
Would it be possible to keep the 4 positions you adjust + regulate but change the positions to: CH, face down (FH), 3H & 6H. Of course, check the 9H & 12H positions to ensure that nothing is out-of-whack. 
what i have found, for 2 totally independent watches, that CH position gains time & FH position loses time. Using a simple technique of alternating face-up/face-down at night while asleep, I can mostly keep these 2 watches running very accurately so far.
It would be great if NTH watches could be simply home-regulated this way. Of course, we users would need to have a watch accuracy results sheet ship with the watch to know for sure that CH position gains time & FH position loses time. 
(of course, it's true that there could be other positions that gain/lose time which could be used for DIY regulation but I seem to have 2 data points that show CH & FH positions)


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> My understanding is that the unidirectional winding allows the movement to be thinner, and adds less wear and tear to the auto-winding mechanism.
> 
> ...


double post. removed.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

If I left these two in a honeymoon suite for a weekend, would I get a watch as nice as thebearded's sauro?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bombaywalla said:


> lol! yeah, does look like a fidget-spinner in the non-winding direction...
> 
> i thought about this earlier but did not write it but........
> you wrote & your website also states the 4 positions you adjust + regulate NTH watches -face-up (CH), 3H, 9H & 6H.
> ...


Miyota's specs have the four positions for the adjustment. We stick to those four.

Not to sound dismissive of your experience with two watches, but...we've produced over 7000, half or more with the Miyota 9 series. In our observation, the dial positions (dial-up and dial-down) generally run about the same (relative to each other), and likewise, the crown positions (crown up, crown down, 12 up, 12 down) tend to run about the same to each other.

I feel like you're not really picking up what I'm putting down, on that topic. The movements are already very accurate, generally much more accurate than the stated specs, and we regulate them to run no worse than 1/2 of that range. We're not charging "certified chronometer" prices.

If you want to spend $800 more per watch, yes, we could regulate them all to within 2 seconds per day, include a timing sheet with each one (which is of dubious value, in a watch you're getting through the mail, in my opinion), and guarantee chronometer performance.

As it is, all I can tell you is that we get very few if any complaints about accuracy, and not once has anyone ever had one running outside of spec.

Again, if accuracy is of paramount importance to you, consider getting a quartz watch.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Peteagus said:


> If I left these two in a honeymoon suite for a weekend, would I get a watch as nice as thebearded's sauro?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you brought them to my house, you could have the same in about 9 minutes, nevermind 9 months!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Hold on while i whip out my big 9...favorite watch tools, and busy!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Peteagus said:


> If I left these two in a honeymoon suite for a weekend, would I get a watch as nice as thebearded's sauro?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It'd be damn close! You gotta have the red triangle though. Love that red triangle.

On a side note, the custom I had made by Patrik over at Clover Straps finally came in! Stupid Covid delayed it by a month and a half. Well, the quality is pretty excellent for the money spent.















So that being said I'm gonna place another order for a blue 20mm non tapered Cordura strap with red and white accents for the Azzuauro. But the blue 350M Lüm-Tec is coming sometime soon, so I think I'll have one made for that too. The waiting game continues....


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work back on the bracelet..









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This was posted on FB and IG today.

This version of the 2K1 will be no-date only.









Also, I posted this sneak-peak of one of the v.2 Azores yesterday.

















More reveals to follow in the coming weeks.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The dial on that v2 is stunning


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## singularityseven (May 1, 2020)

docvail said:


> This was posted on FB and IG today.
> 
> This version of the 2K1 will be no-date only.
> 
> ...


I need that V2 Azores in my life asap.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

12 hour V2 Azores in the works?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> This was posted on FB and IG today.
> 
> This version of the 2K1 will be no-date only.
> 
> View attachment 15159977


Nice. I'm curious if you thought about using a contrasting color like orange for the 5 minute markers on the minute track and the tip of the second hand to make it more like the black one, or if this blue version was always intended to be purely blue and white.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just wanted to see what that would've looked like.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Saw this in a Hodinkee newsletter this morning. The giant markers at 3, 6, and 9 minutes are an interesting relic of the '50s and '60s. Zodiac SSWs had them on their dive timing bezels, and the new ones still do as an homage to the originals. The story is that long-distance phone calls were timed at 3-minute intervals in those days.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Just wanted to see what that would've looked like.
> 
> View attachment 15160947


I like that a lot, I would go with yellow imo. Also a white dial version of this with a cool accent color would be a great looker.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Poor Chris. Works for months (years?) on the watch f/k/a the XL sub, finally reveals it here on his fanboy thread, and virtually the first response is a photoshop mockup "but what if you did this instead." We'll be lucky if he doesn't murder us all while we sleep.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

docvail said:


> Miyota's specs have the four positions for the adjustment. We stick to those four.
> 
> Not to sound dismissive of your experience with two watches, but...we've produced over 7000, half or more with the Miyota 9 series. In our observation, the dial positions (dial-up and dial-down) generally run about the same (relative to each other), and likewise, the crown positions (crown up, crown down, 12 up, 12 down) tend to run about the same to each other.
> 
> ...


thanks docvail. ok, got it - miyota 9xxx movement more accurate than specs before casing; after casing regulated to 1/2 printed specs or better, Large number of data points to prove this.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> 12 hour V2 Azores in the works?


Not necessarily.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Nice. I'm curious if you thought about using a contrasting color like orange for the 5 minute markers on the minute track and the tip of the second hand to make it more like the black one, or if this blue version was always intended to be purely blue and white.


I did consider it, and decided not to.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Poor Chris. Works for months (years?) on the watch f/k/a the XL sub, finally reveals it here on his fanboy thread, and virtually the first response is a photoshop mockup "but what if you did this instead." We'll be lucky if he doesn't murder us all while we sleep.


It ain't like I don't have some people's home addresses.

Just sayin'...


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

^best reason yet to buy pre-owned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> I like that a lot, I would go with yellow imo. Also a white dial version of this with a cool accent color would be a great looker.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Yeah yellow would be cool, although I think orange would be more legible. Maybe a lighter green would be interesting, similar to the blue Rolex OP 39mm. Fully lumed white dial, black hands and hour makers, red accents on the minute track and second hand tip.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Poor Chris. Works for months (years?) on the watch f/k/a the XL sub, finally reveals it here on his fanboy thread, and virtually the first response is a photoshop mockup "but what if you did this instead." We'll be lucky if he doesn't murder us all while we sleep.


I suppose that's one way to look at it, lol. The more charitable interpretation (for me) is that I really enjoy seeing Chris's new designs, and was curious what his thought process was in developing the blue one. I hang around here because I dig the brand and the watches, even though I don't currently own any. If I didn't think the Swiftsure was cool, which it most certainly is in both variants exactly as Doc designed it, I wouldn't bother thinking about how it might've looked if it had orange accents, or, say, how a Nacken MB would look if it had 15/30/45 markers.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> I hang around here because I dig the brand and the watches, even though I don't currently own any.


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## ancientsword (Dec 10, 2010)

Just got my first NTH yesterday. I love coming home to a fedex package!

It is keeping great time so far.

I need to take the time to size the bracelet.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ancientsword said:


> Just got my first NTH yesterday. I love coming home to a fedex package!
> 
> It is keeping great time so far.
> 
> ...


Awesome. Welcome to the madness. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.*

(*Through email to customer support, or via the contact page on the website, please.)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, no screwing around, if you're interested in one of the new DevilRays, and you're not on a retailer's wait list, you need to get on one, now.

My back-of-the-envelope math suggests the current wait lists my retailers have started account for over 80% of what we've got being assembled.

List of retailers by location here - https://nthwatches.com/pages/authorized-retailers.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Kinesis said:


> ^best reason yet to buy pre-owned.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was thinking buying through retailer might be advisable. But this is WAY safer. Good call.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Guys, no screwing around, if you're interested in one of the new DevilRays, and you're not on a retailer's wait list, you need to get on one, now.
> 
> My back-of-the-envelope math suggests the current wait lists my retailers have started account for over 80% of what we've got being assembled.
> 
> List of retailers by location here - https://nthwatches.com/pages/authorized-retailers.


What if we are really interested but can't afford to buy a twelfth [bleeping] dive watch? Gosh darn they are pretty though...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Hey Doc, random thought just popped in my brain while glancing at my wrist. Is an XL Beads of Rice to go with the 2K1s on the docket for the new lineup? Or is it gonna be oyster only for the foreseeable future? 

I have no idea how long you were making the subs, or how many versions came out before you made the current BOR bracelet.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> What if we are really interested but can't afford to buy a twelfth [bleeping] dive watch? Gosh darn they are pretty though...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Hey Doc, random thought just popped in my brain while glancing at my wrist. Is an XL Beads of Rice to go with the 2K1s on the docket for the new lineup? Or is it gonna be oyster only for the foreseeable future?
> 
> I have no idea how long you were making the subs, or how many versions came out before you made the current BOR bracelet.


There's no BOR planned for the 2K1 Subs.

We've made 3700 of the 40mm Subs. We made 323 BOR bracelets. If the 2K1's take off, and we make them over and over, I'll consider an alternative bracelet in the future, maybe, we'll see.

Don't try to do the math to figure out if there's some connection between 3700 and 323. There isn't. I ordered 25 BOR's to start. We only got 23. When they sold out so fast, I ordered another 300.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I like the blue Doc.

Blue...

You are a masochist.

I guess I need to resurrect the swear jar, 5 months to go! Heh..


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


>


Hilarious. I just showed this to my teenage son, who said "Wait, the guy who posted that is the owner of the company??" 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

ancientsword said:


> Just got my first NTH yesterday. I love coming home to a fedex package!
> 
> It is keeping great time so far.
> 
> ...


Excellent choice. Is that the newer version?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Hilarious. I just showed this to my teenage son, who said "Wait, the guy who posted that is the owner of the company??"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Interesting straight backed "3" I don't recall seeing that before on any other watches.


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Anyone here remember all the talk about chimichangas in the NTH forum about 4 or so years ago?

Those were the good ‘ol days.

Doc was so much fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Interesting straight backed "3" I don't recall seeing that before on any other watches.
> 
> View attachment 15162059


You caught us.

Aaron invented another font.

Again.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Anyone here remember all the talk about chimichangas in the NTH forum about 4 or so years ago?
> 
> Those were the good 'ol days.
> 
> ...


You totally missed the point of those posts, and that analogy...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Interesting straight backed "3" I don't recall seeing that before on any other watches.


I think Doc should secretly have the factory make one watch with a "9-9" dial, like that hilarious Rolex Air-king screw-up. Then keep it for 15 years, and then sell it under an assumed name as "incredibly rare! NTH Swiftsure '9-9'" for $10,000.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> You totally missed the point of those posts, and that analogy...


Yah, I did.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Yah, I did.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm still fun!!!

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm still fun!!!


Agreed 😉


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> *What if....* NTH bezels used quarter numbers?
> 
> View attachment 15156015


Yeyeyeyeyeye. That's cool.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeyeyeyeyeye. That's cool.


I thought so. I'm well aware that the vintage Tudors and Rolexes that many of the NTH subs are emulating never had quarter number bezels, nor do I expect to ever see them on future NTH subs. Clearly if Doc wanted to make a bezel like that, he would've done so already. Mainly I was just curious how that might look, and since I actually put a fair bit of effort into making that one look as real as I could, I wanted it show it off


----------



## Davostac (Apr 1, 2020)

Hi all,

I hope it’s not rude to just jump in on a thread like this but I just discovered NTH today (while browsing for my next watch) and I’m completely smitten. Unfortunately I seem to be taken by a discontinued model, the Barracuda. I love the snowflake hands and the guilded hands etc. Is there a chance a similar model will emerge again? Especially the snowflakes! I need the snowflakes!

Cheers,
David


----------



## ancientsword (Dec 10, 2010)

3WR said:


> Excellent choice. Is that the newer version?


I think so, have not been following NTH too long, but it was listed as the NTH Nacken Vintage Black II on Watch Gauge.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Davostac said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I hope it's not rude to just jump in on a thread like this but I just discovered NTH today (while browsing for my next watch) and I'm completely smitten. Unfortunately I seem to be taken by a discontinued model, the Barracuda. I love the snowflake hands and the guilded hands etc. Is there a chance a similar model will emerge again? Especially the snowflakes! I need the snowflakes!
> 
> ...


Doc has retailers across the world. Check his website for links and you might find what you're looking for. Otherwise, they do pop up from time to time on the resale market.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Kinda groovin' on the contrasting lume colors...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

ancientsword said:


> I think so, have not been following NTH too long, but it was listed as the NTH Nacken Vintage Black II on Watch Gauge.


Thanks. That would be the new one, then. With subtly different bezel color compared to original. I haven't seen many real life photos. Looks great.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davostac said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I hope it's not rude to just jump in on a thread like this but I just discovered NTH today (while browsing for my next watch) and I'm completely smitten. Unfortunately I seem to be taken by a discontinued model, the Barracuda. I love the snowflake hands and the guilded hands etc. Is there a chance a similar model will emerge again? Especially the snowflakes! I need the snowflakes!
> 
> ...


There are three versions of the Barracuda. None are truly "discontinued" at this moment. They're simply sold out (at all of our retailers, as well as the NTH website). We may or may not make more of any of them at some point in the future.

That said, there's another model, the Näcken, which also has snowflake hands, and comes in several versions. At the moment, only the Näcken Vintage Black is available anywhere, though it is available from all but one of our retailers (it's not currently available from the NTH website, or A Time to Watch, in Canada).

You can find a list of retailers by location here - https://nthwatches.com/pages/authorized-retailers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davostac said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I hope it's not rude to just jump in on a thread like this but I just discovered NTH today (while browsing for my next watch) and I'm completely smitten. Unfortunately I seem to be taken by a discontinued model, the Barracuda. I love the snowflake hands and the guilded hands etc. Is there a chance a similar model will emerge again? Especially the snowflakes! I need the snowflakes!
> 
> ...


PS - try this - https://www.watchrecon.com/?brand=nth

And this - https://www.ebay.com/sch/Jewelry-Wa...ubLocation=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&_fosrp=1

Good luck.

We'll likely make more of the 40mm NTH Subs late this year or early next. When we do, the Barracuda may make a comeback. Until then, they're out there, and come up for sale sometimes, on the used market. I recommend setting up an alert on both Watch Recon and eBay. The Barracuda Vintage Black, in particular, seems to rarely appear, and sell quickly when it does.


----------



## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

Davostac said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I hope it's not rude to just jump in on a thread like this but I just discovered NTH today (while browsing for my next watch) and I'm completely smitten. Unfortunately I seem to be taken by a discontinued model, the Barracuda. I love the snowflake hands and the guilded hands etc. Is there a chance a similar model will emerge again? Especially the snowflakes! I need the snowflakes!
> 
> ...


If you've only just discovered NTH today, it's a deep rabbit hole and you're in for a treat.

I thought the vintage Barracuda would be my first purchase but couldn't find the right watch at the right time so I went for an Amphion Vintage Gilt instead and I love it!

I'll get the Barracuda one day, via a blue dial Nacken modern.

My point is, this is not a 1-watch brand for many!

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

^^
Agree with that statement. I've got two 40mm subs with plans for a new 2K1 and a v2 Azores.


----------



## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

Skipjack looking mighty fine as always 








Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Okay, so...

The DevilRay 2.0 is turning out to be much more popular than I expected.

We've now got more people signed up for the retailers' waiting lists than there are watches being assembled. So, I just sent my vendors a message asking them to assemble the rest.

The first batch are now expected in June, a month earlier than expected. My retailers have bought them ALL, so the NTH website wont' have ANY for sale.

If you want one, and you're not already on a retailer's wait list, please, don't screw around, get on one of their lists, now.

List of retailers by location here - https://nthwatches.com/pages/authorized-retailers


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Okay, so...
> 
> The DevilRay 2.0 is turning out to be much more popular than I expected.
> 
> ...


Crap, I emailed John yesterday after seeing your first comment, still have not heard back. Hope he still has one for me

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Crap, I emailed John yesterday after seeing your first comment, still have not heard back. Hope he still has one for me
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Don't despair.

While there are more people signed up than there are watches in the first batch, there are more coming, and it's not like every watch is EXACTLY spoken for. There's a mis-match between who wants which version and how many of each are going to be available, so, depending on which version you want, John may be able to take care of you in round one.

But if not, you'll want to make sure you confirm with him, for round 2.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Davostac said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I hope it's not rude to just jump in on a thread like this but I just discovered NTH today (while browsing for my next watch) and I'm completely smitten. Unfortunately I seem to be taken by a discontinued model, the Barracuda. I love the snowflake hands and the guilded hands etc. Is there a chance a similar model will emerge again? Especially the snowflakes! I need the snowflakes!
> 
> ...


Hey David, welcome to the club!

I may be selling my Nacken modern blue. I'm going to list it for $500 incl shipping; I'll pay the PP fees, too. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. I haven't taken the time to photograph it for the sales forum, but will likely do it soon.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Don't despair.
> 
> While there are more people signed up than there are watches in the first batch, there are more coming, and it's not like every watch is EXACTLY spoken for. There's a mis-match between who wants which version and how many of each are going to be available, so, depending on which version you want, John may be able to take care of you in round one.
> 
> But if not, you'll want to make sure you confirm with him, for round 2.


I am in, heard from John.
Thanks for the heads up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Antjrice said:


> If you've only just discovered NTH today, it's a deep rabbit hole and you're in for a treat.
> 
> I thought the vintage Barracuda would be my first purchase but couldn't find the right watch at the right time so I went for an Amphion Vintage Gilt instead and I love it!
> 
> ...


If you have an inkling to make that nacken blue dream happen sooner, I have one I'm going to part with 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

It's not like the models I prefer are ever the first to sell out, but just in case, I always order early. If I wanted one.of.the new Devil Rays, I would have got on a waiting list first day...


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

My next NTH is going to have to be a Skipjack. That watch just continues to sing to me, like a trashy mermaid luring me to the ocean deep.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> My next NTH is going to have to be a Skipjack. That watch just continues to sing to me, like a trashy mermaid luring me to the ocean deep.


At last count, there were only 9 new Skipjacks left available (5 no date / 4 with date).

I wouldn't wait too long. We're not making more anytime soon, if ever.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> It's not like the models I prefer are ever the first to sell out, but just in case, I always order early. If I wanted one.of.the new Devil Rays, I would have got on a waiting list first day...


I'm not bragging that the DevilRay is just that hot, and what I'm about to say is not false modesty, either.

I figured - $525 is on the high side of what a lot of guys will spend for a watch with "only" a Seiko NH3x inside, and we only sold 350 in the first production, and the industry's been in a slump since the middle of last year, which only worsened with the global pandemic. There's no way I should expect any new model to fly off the shelves.

Like I've explained before, when we stopped doing pre-orders, it got harder to predict future demand and perfectly match production. This is a textbook case of a brand which simply didn't know how many to produce, and chose to err on the low-side, out of a desire to be conservative, given the circumstances.

It's not "artificial scarcity". I just messed up. I didn't know they'd be this popular. Now I wish I ordered more.

Can't be helped now. We've got 300 coming (150 in June, 150 in July), about 200 of which are already spoken for.


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## Davostac (Apr 1, 2020)

Thanks Doc. I was also looking at other models and wondering if you sell the snowflake hands that could be swapped onto, say, an Amphibian...?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davostac said:


> Thanks Doc. I was also looking at other models and wondering if you sell the snowflake hands that could be swapped onto, say, an Amphibian...?


We don't sell hands, dials, or movements.

Just what you see on the website. That's it. Nothing else.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Davostac said:


> Thanks Doc. I was also looking at other models and wondering if you sell the snowflake hands that could be swapped onto, say, an Amphibian...?


3rd party snowflake hands for Miyota are much less common than for Seiko, but they are out there. You'd just need to verify that they'll work with 29mm dials. It's also not a particularly easy task, and of course the warranty would be out the window.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> 3rd party snowflake hands for Miyota are much less common than for Seiko, but they are out there. You'd just need to verify that they'll work with 29mm dials. It's also not a particularly easy task, and of course the warranty would be out the window.


Bro. Its a five-minute job. Worst case, you bugger a movement and replace it.

More to point, practice on something cheap.

Lots of hand choices out there, and lots of guys who'll relume them to match.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

hwa said:


> Bro. Its a five-minute job. Worst case, you bugger a movement and replace it.
> 
> More to point, practice on something cheap.
> 
> ...


Worst case, you scratch up the caseback, rip the crown seal, bend the old handset, scratch the dial, break the new seconds hand (becausse getting those f***** seated is a pain at best), put dust and hand oils all over the movement, put a fingerprint on the crystal, bend the crown stem, and scratch up the caseback once more.

In that order.

After buying like $50 worth of ebay tools just to perform those 5 minutes.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Toonces said:


> My next NTH is going to have to be a Skipjack. That watch just continues to sing to me, like a trashy mermaid luring me to the ocean deep.


You may want to keep an eye on eBay. I've seen brand new ones at a big discount and the used ones struggle to get $425-450. For some reason they are one of the weakest resale value nth subs. But yeah, you need one...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Worst case, you scratch up the caseback, rip the crown seal, bend the old handset, scratch the dial, break the new seconds hand (becausse getting those f***** seated is a pain at best), put dust and hand oils all over the movement, put a fingerprint on the crystal, bend the crown stem, and scratch up the caseback once more.
> 
> In that order.
> 
> After buying like $50 worth of ebay tools just to perform those 5 minutes.


Well, that's why YOU cant have nice things! I'm no watchmaker, but that's a heckuva accomplishment to botch it that badly

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Worst case, you scratch up the caseback, rip the crown seal, bend the old handset, scratch the dial, break the new seconds hand (becausse getting those f***** seated is a pain at best), put dust and hand oils all over the movement, put a fingerprint on the crystal, bend the crown stem, and scratch up the caseback once more.
> 
> In that order.
> 
> After buying like $50 worth of ebay tools just to perform those 5 minutes.


You forgot to mention dropping the case, then kicking it under the refrigerator when you went to pick it up, and knocking the new movement onto the floor as you tried to retrieve the case.....


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

92gli said:


> You may want to keep an eye on eBay. I've seen brand new ones at a big discount and the used ones struggle to get $425-450. For some reason they are one of the weakest resale value nth subs. But yeah, you need one...
> View attachment 15166593


That is crazy, but maybe true. I happened upon an incredible deal on my Skipjack. I assumed I was owed some good karma (for unknown reasons). Never considered that it being a Skipjack was the reason for the low price. They are great.

There is one in "Nearly New" at NTH.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Thanks for the heads up on the Skipjack!

And don't listen to hwa. I'm sure Tiger Woods wonders what people find so hard about shooting a birdie at Pebble Beach, too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Worst case, you scratch up the caseback, rip the crown seal, bend the old handset, scratch the dial, break the new seconds hand (becausse getting those f***** seated is a pain at best), put dust and hand oils all over the movement, put a fingerprint on the crystal, bend the crown stem, and scratch up the caseback once more.
> 
> In that order.
> 
> After buying like $50 worth of ebay tools just to perform those 5 minutes.


It's almost like you had a hidden camera set up in my office the last time I tried to do my own mod.

It's not for those who don't have good manual dexterity, the right tools, the knowledge of what they're doing, and the patience to take their time.

I have none of those things.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I mod cheap watches. And usually botch something along the way.

I now have 2 ST2130 movements which probably need keyless works repair, a third which won't accept a second hand because I broke something there, a Seiko 7S26 movement where I also botched second hand install to the point that now one won't seat at all, and a modded watch where I just gave up trying to install a second hand after mangling two hands trying to get them on.

But I ain't even giving up, man. Last one went together pretty well and aside from one f'ing spec of dust driving me insane, another one came out just fine. Apparently, I am learning from my mistakes and gaining mad modding skillz, yo. Not that I'm going to mess around with my NTH any time soon...

And when mods go south? There is always "art." This is a piece I call "Watch."


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Doc, close your eyes...

Guys, any recommendations on a jubilee with end links (HELs are a-OK) that match up well with the sub case? Appreciate it!

|>


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> You may want to keep an eye on eBay. I've seen brand new ones at a big discount and the used ones struggle to get $425-450. For some reason they are one of the weakest resale value nth subs. But yeah, you need one...
> View attachment 15166593


Not arguing, just trying to inject some clarity.

I just searched sold listings on eBay, within the USA. Only found two, one which sold for $400, and one for $550. No Skipjacks currently for sale.

A search of WatchRecon shows none for sale now, but past sales ranging from $450 to $550.

Average price of all listings I found = $486.

The only one I could find currently for sale, anywhere, is the Nearly New one I have in my office, which was mine, meaning it was hardly worn, and is in excellent condition.

I'm considering putting it back in the rotation.


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

A question for you good people:

The BoP bracelet, is it an improvement on the original? 

I’m hoping it would go well with my Näcken modern blue date, but haven’t seen any pics of it. 

Still not over the moon about the date, may look to do a trade for some Nth ND at some point.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> Average price of all listings I found = $486.
> 
> ...


Cool! For once, I can celebrate my being well below average in so many areas. To now include price paid for my watch. 

If Toonces doesn't want it, you should definitely keep it. Not sure if you've heard, but there may never be another batch made.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx, thanks in advance for the nightmare. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

sweeperdk01 said:


> A question for you good people:
> 
> The BoP bracelet, is it an improvement on the original?


Ostensibly, yes, it is an improvement on the original. Essentially, it has female endlinks, finer links for more conforming drape characteristics, better (well, more polished) finishing. I think it has a finer feel to it than the OG NTH subs bracelet.

But it really depends. Personally, I think the dressier the watch, the better it looks. I tried one on my Scorpene Nomad... and decided to go back to the more tool-watch look of the original bracelet. Nothing wrong with the bracelet, I think it looks great on other subs, just not my taste for the Scorpene.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Humidity is back, strap time! Vail's (other) finest work on Barton canvas


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sweeperdk01 said:


> A question for you good people:
> 
> The BoP bracelet, is it an improvement on the original?
> 
> ...


Some say it's more comfortable. Personally, I rarely notice any of my watches being UNcomfortable, so I can't really say I've noticed any difference between the standard Oyster and the BOR.

I do think it looks more vintage, and more "fancy", less toolish, so I like it more on some models (the Barracudas, the Skipjack) than others (the Odin, the Scorpene).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just posted a poll to the Facebook fans group. I'll ask the same question here. Please refrain from responding here if you have already responded or plan to respond there.

Hypothetically, which of these 3 (and *ONLY* these 3) options best describes your preference:

1. Buying the NTH Subs on the Oyster Bracelet, at the current price, and not buying the BOR, ever, because you don't want it.

2. Buying the NTH Subs on the BOR Bracelet, for a $25 upcharge, and not having the standard Oyster, because you don't want it.

3. Buying the NTH Subs on the standard Oyster, then buying the BOR separately, for $150, if or when you want it, so you have both the standard Oyster and the BOR as options.

***BEFORE YOU ANSWER***...

Don't worry that the results might lead to us doing away with the Oyster bracelet. It won't. That will remain the default choice. I'm just considering having some of the next batch of Subs assembled with the BOR bracelets (which we already have made), instead of the Oyster, and wondering what the Oyster-to-BOR ratio should be, if we do that.

So, if you understand that, then you'll understand there's ZERO reason to suggest ANY other bracelet style, just to get under my skin, or because you want something else and you think you just have to tell me (you don't), or you think you're being helpful, because, trust me, those 3 options are literally - not figuratively - the ONLY three possible options here.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Cool! For once, I can celebrate my being well below average in so many areas. To now include price paid for my watch.
> 
> If Toonces doesn't want it, you should definitely keep it. Not sure if you've heard, but there may never be another batch made.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have heard that.

I don't know how many more of the 40mm Subs we'll make, period, before it's time to retire the model forever.

As of today (as in, I was literally discussing this with my team today), I'm thinking we'll make at least another 500, late this year or early next.

After that, I guess we'll see.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I just posted a poll to the Facebook fans group. I'll ask the same question here. Please refrain from responding here if you have already responded or plan to respond there.
> 
> Hypothetically, which of these 3 (and *ONLY* these 3) options best describes your preference:
> 
> ...


3.

Variety is the spice of life, my friend.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Option 2 for me.
Some subs look better on one or the other so I would like to choose between the 2. 
I think my Oberon will look better on BOR but I need to see a pic in the wild first. If anyone has one here please post


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Option 2 for me.
> Some subs look better on one or the other so I would like to choose between the 2.
> I think my Oberon will look better on BOR but I need to see a pic in the wild first. If anyone has one here please post


Here's one:









I got you, fam.

Best I can do, after looking online, and not finding any.

Otherwise...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> DuckaDiesel said:
> 
> 
> > Option 2 for me.
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15168493


Sorry. I did look, mostly because I was sure I'd seen one just recently.

But, nope. I didn't.


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## MichaelDunford (Oct 1, 2018)

Love looking at all the cool NTHs in this thread. At one point there was nothing that would fill the void in my life like a blue Nacken. So good.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

1 or 3.

I prefer the oyster bracelet and not a huge fan of the BoP but there has been times where I have thought it might look good. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Did I show you guys this?

It's the bracelet planned for the updated Tropics.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MichaelDunford said:


> Love looking at all the cool NTHs in this thread. At one point there was nothing that would fill the void in my life like a blue Nacken. So good.


Wait until you hit puberty and discover girls.

It's like an entirely new world that gets opened up to you.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Bracelet poll: 
#3

Discontinuing 40mm Subs: 
Do not support
(Unless 2k1 out-cools them and fits me)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Poll: 3


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Did I show you guys this?
> 
> It's the bracelet planned for the updated Tropics.
> 
> View attachment 15168653


Those lugs go on forever


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Hypothetically, which of these 3 (and *ONLY* these 3) options best describes your preference:
> 
> 1. Buying the NTH Subs on the Oyster Bracelet, at the current price, and not buying the BOR, ever, because you don't want it.
> 
> ...


1, and I would even go so far as to say having only a BOR bracelet would make me hesitant to purchase if I didn't already have two NTH Oyster bracelets ready to swap in. That said, I'm not much of a bracelet gal anyway.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

So, I picked up one of Elshan's new GMT's and took a short break from my AVG:









I'm pretty happy. Elshan packed a lot of value into this thing. I won't blubber over it here too long given that this is the NTH thread, but I'm sure Chris is secure enough in his brand to allow a quick hat tip to a competitor. I'll probably create a thread with a proper review after I've gotten to know it for a week or so.

On the broader topic of value, it continues to astound me how much value there is to be found in the microbrand space right now. NTH subs are the obvious example in this forum, but also consider this GMT for $750ish. Or the Islanders that Marc at Island Watch is selling for $300. I have now idea how these guys even break even at the prices that some of these watches go for. When I do the math in my head for the cost of of the parts plus assembly, QA and other overhead, it just doesn't work out.

Anyway, kudos to you, Doc. And also to Elshan, Marc, and the other micro-brand guys out there carving out their niches against the big brands and against all odds.


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Option #2, I like the idea of having a choice between bracelet types. I have no use for an extra bracelet because in reality, I know I'll never change it from the original version.


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## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Honestly option #1 for me.

The bor is just not for me...


/If you would offer a jubilee on the other hand ... *poke* *poke* *poke-the-bear*


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## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

docvail said:


> [
> It's almost like you had a hidden camera set up in my office the last time I tried to do my own mod.
> 
> It's not for those who don't have good manual dexterity, the right tools, the knowledge of what they're doing, and the patience to take their time.
> ...


I tried my first Invicta redial over a year ago. Mangled the seconds hand getting it on, resuscitated it minus a little paint off the tip of said seconds hand and finished the job. Told myself never again.

Fast-forward to yesterday and round 2, on an STP 1-11. No mangling this time, but threw down my tools in anger after 5 minutes of trying to seat the seconds hand. Luckily the local watchmaker came to the rescue.

I'm not likely to be an NTH customer in the near future (until I find 499 friends), but I'd go option 2. Was going through the mental exercise of which subs I'd go for, after winning lotto and commissioning Doc to build a couple in titanium, came away with a Santa Cruz on BOP and a Nacken Modern Black on oyster 🙂


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Re: the bracelet poll, #2.


----------



## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

Option #2 I'd like the choice between bracelets

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

For me, option 2. I like the BOR, and it would be nice to be able to choose.

Keep up the good work Doc.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I voted on FB, so not going to repeat it here. But I will say BoP makes for a nice option on some models.


----------



## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

Regarding the poll, option 3 for me.

A Watch


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> 3. Buying the NTH Subs on the standard Oyster, then buying the BOR separately, for $150, if or when you want it, so you have both the standard Oyster and the BOR as options.


This is for me, it's nice to have both options so I can switch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Those lugs are the same length as the NTH Subs.


FTFY.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> 1, and I would even go so far as to say having only a BOR bracelet would make me hesitant to purchase if I didn't already have two NTH Oyster bracelets ready to swap in. That said, I'm not much of a bracelet gal anyway.


Like I said, the Oyster will remain the default option. I'm just thinking about making the BOR an option, and wondering how to split production between the Oyster and the BOR.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> I just posted a poll to the Facebook fans group. I'll ask the same question here. Please refrain from responding here if you have already responded or plan to respond there.
> 
> Hypothetically, which of these 3 (and *ONLY* these 3) options best describes your preference:
> 
> ...


One by a country mile.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

#3 for me.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

This watch for this weekend, have a good one each.......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## SSK877 (Oct 19, 2017)

Bloom said:


> Saturday afternoon with the Oberon II.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice!

I actually served in 3 different members of that submarine class.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Like I said, the Oyster will remain the default option. I'm just thinking about making the BOR an option, and wondering how to split production between the Oyster and the BOR.


Have you thought about making one side of the bracelet an oyster style and the other side BoP?

You can then choose which side you want to look at and which side you want everyone else to see.

BAM!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

On the bleached blue canvas today


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

How about a bracelet delete option for a discount?

Mostly kidding. But I'd go for that if it were a thing.

Once you've achieved critical mass with your Sub collection, you may well have more bracelets than you use. I have a couple still in plastic. And rotate around the others that I've already sized.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> How about a bracelet delete option for a discount?
> 
> Mostly kidding. But I'd go for that if it were a thing.
> 
> Once you've achieved critical mass with your Sub collection, you may well have more bracelets than you use. I have a couple still in plastic. And rotate around the others that I've already sized.


Selling the watch without a bracelet or strap attached to it is never going to be an option.

Everyone should accept it.

If not, I can build a wall of text on the topic, explaining the entirely logical reasons why it'll never happen.

This is officially my *short* answer on that topic. Subsequent discussion will only make my responses longer. The more discussion, the longer my responses will get.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Selling the watch without a bracelet or strap attached to it is never going to be an option.
> 
> Everyone should accept it.
> 
> ...


Short answer will suffice, thanks.

Sounds like there might be some history there that I'd be happy to continue being unaware of.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Worst case, you scratch up the caseback, rip the crown seal, bend the old handset, scratch the dial, break the new seconds hand (becausse getting those f***** seated is a pain at best), put dust and hand oils all over the movement, put a fingerprint on the crystal, bend the crown stem, and scratch up the caseback once more.
> 
> In that order.
> 
> After buying like $50 worth of ebay tools just to perform those 5 minutes.


Thank you for reminding me why I don't mod my watches. That was almost poetic.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

hwa said:


> Well, that's why YOU cant have nice things! I'm no watchmaker, but that's a heckuva accomplishment to botch it that badly
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hold my beer.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> I just posted a poll to the Facebook fans group. I'll ask the same question here. Please refrain from responding here if you have already responded or plan to respond there.
> 
> Hypothetically, which of these 3 (and *ONLY* these 3) options best describes your preference:
> 
> ...


1. Oyster. Always. Twice on Sunday. (BORs are the Devil.)


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

So, I might regret asking this, but as I understand it, BOR stands for beads of rice - a style of bracelet. Assuming that is correct, can somebody kindly explain why some folks are talking about BOR's while others are talking about BOP's and what the distinction is between the two, if any? It is confusing me. Thank you and apologies if this is a stupid question. Cheers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Short answer will suffice, thanks.
> 
> Sounds like there might be some history there that I'd be happy to continue being unaware of.


Meh.

Not really a "history" per se. It's something that comes up occasionally.

I've been on this forum almost 8 years. Been in this business 7. Not a month goes by that I don't spend at least some time talking to another brand owner about some aspect of the business, making the logical case for doing something, or not doing something.

Not only is there literally no watch-topic debate I haven't seen play out, there isn't one I haven't participated in, at least once. No matter what the topic is, it's been discussed, the "no-strap option" included.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Elbakalao said:


> So, I might regret asking this, but as I understand it, BOR stands for beads of rice - a style of bracelet. Assuming that is correct, can somebody kindly explain why some folks are talking about BOR's while others are talking about BOP's and what the distinction is between the two, if any? It is confusing me. Thank you and apologies if this is a stupid question. Cheers.


I think it was @perdendosi who related the story about his daughter saying the links don't look like beads of rice, they look like beads of poop.

We've been intermittently referring to it as a BOP bracelet ever since.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I think it was @perdendosi who related the story about his daughter saying the links don't look like beads of rice, they look like beads of poop.
> 
> We've been intermittently referring to it as a BOP bracelet ever since.


Beads of Rice = When we're feeling a bit proper.
Beads of Poop = When we're feeling a bit fun.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Option 3.

Only have one NTH on a BOR so far, the Nazario Sauro.


----------



## Pogo247 (May 11, 2020)

Davostac said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I hope it's not rude to just jump in on a thread like this but I just discovered NTH today (while browsing for my next watch) and I'm completely smitten. Unfortunately I seem to be taken by a discontinued model, the Barracuda. I love the snowflake hands and the guilded hands etc. Is there a chance a similar model will emerge again? Especially the snowflakes! I need the snowflakes!
> 
> ...


This post could literally have been written by me. Also looking for a Barracuda Vintage Black but happy to wait as prefer to buy new. Hope they make an appearance again soon as it looks great

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Pogo247 said:


> This post could literally have been written by me. Also looking for a Barracuda Vintage Black but happy to wait as prefer to buy new. Hope they make an appearance again soon as it looks great
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


Soon, I highly doubt.

First is the v2 Devilray release which is coming soon.
Second is the 2K1 "XL" subs.
Third, I'm not positive, but pretty damn sure the v2 Tropics will be released before anymore of the original 40mm subs are produced.

So you're probably looking at mid to late next year? But my name isn't Doc, so I might just be talking out my @$$.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Soon, I highly doubt.
> 
> First is the v2 Devilray release which is coming soon.
> Second is the 2K1 "XL" subs.
> ...


Even if your name was Doc, it's always a possibility.

Sometimes it's inevitable.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Elbakalao said:


> Hold my beer.


Pandemic or no, the beer will be empty when I return it.

And doc, stop threatening WOTs. Those who don't read them don't care. Scroll scroll scroll ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Elbakalao said:


> So, I might regret asking this, but as I understand it, BOR stands for beads of rice - a style of bracelet. Assuming that is correct, can somebody kindly explain why some folks are talking about BOR's while others are talking about BOP's and what the distinction is between the two, if any? It is confusing me. Thank you and apologies if this is a stupid question. Cheers.


The answer is @rhory

which is to say, the peurile poop joke would have died, but Rhory wouldn't let it. at least that's how I remember it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Kratsmoose (Nov 19, 2012)

docvail said:


> I just posted a poll to the Facebook fans group. I'll ask the same question here. Please refrain from responding here if you have already responded or plan to respond there.
> 
> Hypothetically, which of these 3 (and *ONLY* these 3) options best describes your preference:


#2

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Hope y'all have a good Sunday


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Pandemic or no, the beer will be empty when I return it.
> 
> And doc, stop threatening WOTs. Those who don't read them don't care. Scroll scroll scroll ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Just sayin'...before every huge WOT there was a short response people just couldn't accept, to a request / suggestion people just couldn't let go.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pogo247 said:


> This post could literally have been written by me. Also looking for a Barracuda Vintage Black but happy to wait as prefer to buy new. Hope they make an appearance again soon as it looks great
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk





TheBearded said:


> Soon, I highly doubt.
> 
> First is the v2 Devilray release which is coming soon.
> Second is the 2K1 "XL" subs.
> ...


We'll probably make more of the Subs late this year or early next. And push the updated Tropics into next year.



docvail said:


> Even if your name was Doc, it's always a possibility.
> 
> Sometimes it's inevitable.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


^By which, I meant that *I* could be talking out my @$$, not *you*, @TheBearded.

You might be just as capable as I am of talking out of said orifice, but I've no evidence of it.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> By which, I meant that *I* could be talking out my @$$, not *you*, @TheBearded.
> 
> You might be just as capable as I am of talking out of said orifice, but I've no evidence of it.


If you were "worried" I misunderstood what you said and/or was butthurt about your reply, I assure you I wasnt.

In my short few months on the forum I've learned your personality, and I've been around plenty with similar ones. Your bluntness, interactions with fans and customers, and sometimes short fuse was one of the the main draws to your brand. I know you're just a nice jerk from Filthadelphia.

Carson Wentz sucks, btw.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> If you were "worried" I misunderstood what you said and/or was butthurt about your reply, I assure you I wasnt.
> 
> In my short few months on the forum I've learned your personality, and I've been around plenty with similar ones. Your bluntness, interactions with fans and customers, and sometimes short fuse was one of the the main draws to your brand. I know you're just a nice jerk from Filthadelphia.
> 
> Carson Wentz sucks, btw.


I like this guy. Which is weird because I hate the Cowboys.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I'm only getting about 75% of the awesome here. Subtle dial texture, most of the light play, bezel day glow has to be imagined I guess. You can trust me that it is all poppin' in person.

Liking this back on bracelet more than I remembered.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Just sayin'...before every huge WOT there was a short response people just couldn't accept, to a request / suggestion people just couldn't let go.


That doesn't make it right

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

hwa said:


> The answer is @rhory
> 
> which is to say, the peurile poop joke would have died, but Rhory wouldn't let it. at least that's how I remember it.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


#iblamerhorytoo


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Option 2 for me.
> Some subs look better on one or the other so I would like to choose between the 2.
> I think my Oberon will look better on BOR but I need to see a pic in the wild first. If anyone has one here please post


Not exactly "in the wild" per se, but I stuck an Oberon on another NTH that had a BOR on it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Option 2 for me.
> Some subs look better on one or the other so I would like to choose between the 2.
> I think my Oberon will look better on BOR but I need to see a pic in the wild first. If anyone has one here please post


Apologies if this gets double posted. Just had the first one eaten by the forum monster. It exists, yet it does not, like schrodinger's cat. Anyway, here's a thing I made.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Apologies if this gets double posted. Just had the first one eaten by the forum monster. It exists, yet it does not, like schrodinger's cat. Anyway, here's a thing I made.
> 
> View attachment 15174811


Thank you!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> If you were "worried" I misunderstood what you said and/or was butthurt about your reply, I assure you I wasnt.
> 
> In my short few months on the forum I've learned your personality, and I've been around plenty with similar ones. Your bluntness, interactions with fans and customers, and sometimes short fuse was one of the the main draws to your brand. I know you're just a nice jerk from Filthadelphia.
> 
> Carson Wentz sucks, btw.


I was worried. Texas Football teams have had a tough time of it lately. I thought you might be overly sensitive.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Elbakalao said:


> I like this guy. Which is weird because I hate the Cowboys.


They should just change their name to the Murder Hornets.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> That doesn't make it right
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Perhaps not.

But it does make it predictable, and thus avoidable.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Today I bleached a gray one, which ended up as sand with gray stitching. Chemistry is amazing. This one will probably look better on my skipjack


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

Glad to hear the Tropics will make a comeback. 
I'm still happy with mine.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks for offering these inserts Chris!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Kinesis said:


> Thanks for offering these inserts Chris!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Kinesis said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Kinesis said:


> Thanks for offering these inserts Chris!


Lookin' good!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Kinesis said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Would have never expected that combo and it looks great 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Lookin' good!
> 
> View attachment 15178957


Hey Mike, I had the same idea. No surprise given our similar taste. b-)
I have not committed though, just not sure yet that I like it more than the original.








On the other hand, I already swapped the insert for my buddy's Nacken. He had always wanted a 12hr bezel, and this looks perfect, like it could have been designed this way from the start.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

tc3 said:


> Hey Mike, I had the same idea. No surprise given our similar taste. b-)
> I have not committed though, just not sure yet that I like it more than the original.
> View attachment 15180295
> 
> ...


Indeed! It was either this or the blue Vanguard insert. On this one, the minute dots line up so well with the markers on the dial, just had to be done. The only off notes with this swap is the difference in lume -- the pip on the bezel insert is C3 and glows green, shows off-white in certain lights -- and it would be better if there was a something red on the watch face, like dial text or second hand to complement the red in the triangle. However, these are very minor issues in my eyes, and might even add rather than subtract from the appeal of the overall look. I love the splash of red and the contrasting lume colors.

That Nacken is sweet, though.

I think it speaks to the cohesive design language of NTH subs that bezel inserts can be swapped like this, without screwing up the design integrity, and in some cases, enhancing the appeal.


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Indeed! It was either this or the blue Vanguard insert. On this one, the minute dots line up so well with the markers on the dial, just had to be done. The only off notes with this swap is the difference in lume -- the pip on the bezel insert is C3 and glows green, shows off-white in certain lights -- and it would be better if there was a something red on the watch face, like dial text or second hand to complement the red in the triangle. However, these are very minor issues in my eyes, and might even add rather than subtract from the appeal of the overall look. I love the splash of red and the contrasting lume colors.
> 
> That Nacken is sweet, though.
> 
> I think it speaks to the cohesive design language of NTH subs that bezel inserts can be swapped like this, without screwing up the design integrity, and in some cases, enhancing the appeal.


Let me tell you, I spent way too much time mulling over the choices, using a tool not meant for graphic design (powerpoint). On paper the Commando insert looked the best to me. :-!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

tc3 said:


> Let me tell you, I spent way too much time mulling over the choices, using a tool not meant for graphic design (powerpoint). On paper the Commando insert looked the best to me. :-!


Lolz! That is a lot of effort and mulling, right there... Obviously, I agree!


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Lolz! That is a lot of effort and mulling, right there... Obviously, I agree!


It's a good think WIS dudes aren't obsessive or anything.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Lolz! That is a lot of effort and mulling, right there... Obviously, I agree!


FWIW, here's the Scorpene with the insert from my friend's Nacken Modern.


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> It's a good think WIS dudes aren't obsessive or anything.


Speaking of obsessive.. spot any difference between these two bezel inserts?









No, I did not buy an exact replacement. I got the insert for the Amphion Vintage Gilt, to put on my Amphion Dark Gilt, cuz lume color. :-d


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Here's "some" lume, because the internet just isn't ready for a full charge.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of the Scorpène, I just added one, a no-date, with the 60 minute bezel, to the website.

Get it before it's gone - https://nthwatches.com/collections/in-stock/products/scorpene-black


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

And then this happened...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

There's that white dial I was hoping to see


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Folks, this is why you do NOT pry the bezels off the case. We do NOT sell either of these parts separately, or together. You pry the bezel off the case, and ruin it, that's on you, sorry to tell you.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Folks, this is why you do NOT pry the bezels off the case. We do NOT sell either of these parts separately, or together. You pry the bezel off the case, and ruin it, that's on you, sorry to tell you.
> 
> View attachment 15183509
> 
> View attachment 15183511


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15183535


Not only are there idiot-proof instructions on the website, on the exact same page where we sell the replacement inserts, but the goddam bezel inserts are packaged with a label, which tells people to make sure they read the goddam instructions on the goddam website.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Not only are there idiot-proof instructions on the website, on the exact same page where we sell the replacement inserts, but the goddam bezel inserts are packaged with a label, which tells people to make sure they read the goddam instructions on the goddam website.
> 
> View attachment 15183537


Doc, I learned long ago. Try, try, try as you might. But you can NEVER idiot proof something. Ever.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Doc, I learned long ago. Try, try, try as you might. But you can NEVER idiot proof something. Ever.


Sounds like a challenge to me...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

How much are 6850 points worth on NTH website? And can I use them at Watch Gauge?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> How much are 6850 points worth on NTH website? And can I use them at Watch Gauge?


$25 and no.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Blamed it on the prior owner. Sure dude, it wasn't you...:-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Blamed it on the prior owner. Sure dude, it wasn't you...:-d


I usually take people at their word, unless and until I know for certain that something they said was a lie.

I don't have any reason to believe he did that damage himself. He said the prior owner did it, and he bought the watch used, but for a "good price".

So...first guy effs the watch up, then sells it cheap. It wouldn't be the first time I saw that story play out, nor would it be the first time that second owner emailed us to ask us to fix the reason the watch was sold cheap in the first place.

There should be two morals to this story:

1. Don't modify a $600-$700 watch. If you do, read the instructons.

2. Don't buy a used watch with an obvious problem, just because it's cheap, thinking the manufacturer will help you sort that problem out. Odds are, we won't.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3. Heat that steel and bend it back to flat.

Is it cast? If it is, never mind. If it’s machined, he should be able to get it pretty close to good enough.

Tell the dude I’ll buy it cheap. Worst case, I’ll wear it like Marlon.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> And then this happened...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Worst case, I'll wear it like Marlon.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's what I was thinking. It's already part way off, might as well take it the rest of the way and have yourself a no-bezel NTH.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> And then this happened...
> 
> View attachment 15183467
> 
> View attachment 15183469


Might be a new contender for Vail's finest work, but love this design nicely done

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

So is the theory that the average NTH buyer knows the difference between "bezel assembly" and "bezel insert", and also knows what the "mid-case" is?

Hmmm.

Maybe a video SHOWING how to do it, rather than trying to EXPLAIN it, would help.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Is the Atticus thread broken for everyone, or just me? Pages after p.62 seem to have disappeared.

Perhaps it's all my fault for repeatedly referring to Rusty as "Randy" ...


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Avo said:


> So is the theory that the average NTH buyer knows the difference between "bezel assembly" and "bezel insert", and also knows what the "mid-case" is?
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> Maybe a video SHOWING how to do it, rather than trying to EXPLAIN it, would help.


Yes, I would assume the average nth customer knows what it is. Or has a pretty accurate idea about it.

At least that's my expectation, as I assume most nth buyers aren't new in the watch world.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Avo said:


> So is the theory that the average NTH buyer knows the difference between "bezel assembly" and "bezel insert", and also knows what the "mid-case" is?
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> Maybe a video SHOWING how to do it, rather than trying to EXPLAIN it, would help.


If they don't, then maybe they shouldn't be attempting any change on their own.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avo said:


> Is the Atticus thread broken for everyone, or just me? Pages after p.62 seem to have disappeared.
> 
> Perhaps it's all my fault for repeatedly referring to Rusty as "Randy" ...


A few days back the same thing happened to me on this thread. Last few pages were missing if I tried to view it on my tablet, but it was normal on my phone.

It seemed to resolve itself overnight.


----------



## ancientsword (Dec 10, 2010)

Has anyone tried a crafter blue strap on the NTH sub? 

Would like to try one, wondering how well it fits the lugs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> So is the theory that the average NTH buyer knows the difference between "bezel assembly" and "bezel insert", and also knows what the "mid-case" is?
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> Maybe a video SHOWING how to do it, rather than trying to EXPLAIN it, would help.


I wouldn't call it a theory.

Think this through...

We don't advertise anywhere. We're not sold in chain stores. If someone buys an NTH, odds are extremely high that they're not complete novices when it comes to watches.

Even if they are complete novices, then they wouldn't be modifying their watches. What novice is buying a $600-$700 watch, from a brand they never heard of, then dis-assembling it to do a mod?

Even if this odd-ball scenario were to somehow play out, in what world does someone, anyone, think it's a good idea to just pry the case apart without knowing what they're doing? How would someone who's never modified a watch come by the idea that's what you should do?

I think anyone who buys an insert from our website should understand words well enough to infer what is meant by the "bezel assembly" and the "bezel insert". How would someone who doesn't know the difference even know to go looking for an "insert" on our site?

Even if they're as dumb as a doorknob, if they've bought an insert, and received it in the mail, they'll know the difference at that point, because it will be staring them in the face.

I mean, if you're sitting there, with an insert in hand, which you bought from our store, then, obviously, you know, that's the INSERT, not the ASSEMBLY, right?

From there, the rest should be kind of obvious, no?



Poerger said:


> Yes, I would assume the average nth customer knows what it is. Or has a pretty accurate idea about it.
> 
> At least that's my expectation, as I assume most nth buyers aren't new in the watch world.


Even the below average customer should be able to put 2 and 2 together by the time their insert is delivered.



Jtragic said:


> If they don't, then maybe they shouldn't be attempting any change on their own.


^Also this.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ancientsword said:


> Has anyone tried a crafter blue strap on the NTH sub?
> 
> Would like to try one, wondering how well it fits the lugs.


Haven't tried a Crafter Blue, nor do I remember seeing anyone post about it, but I do recall one or more people posting pics of a molded-end strap that seemed to fit very, if not perfectly well.

I think any strap intended for a Submariner will work. Probably also any strap made for an SKX or SARB with 20mm lugs.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Now that's an interesting deformation. Guessing, the grip ring and the insert sit flush on an inner ring containing the actual click-mechanism...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I wouldn't call it a theory.
> 
> Think this through...
> 
> ...


All of which is to say, sell replacement bezels. $100 with choice of insert. Make buyer provide pic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Now that's an interesting deformation. Guessing, the grip ring and the insert sit flush on an inner ring containing the actual click-mechanism...


We may be saying the same thing.

The bezel assembly isn't overly complicated.

There's a shallow channel cut down (vertically) into the mid-case, where the click-spring-plate rests, a locator tab holding it in place (keeping it from rotating), click-tabs pointing up towards the teeth machined into the bottom of the bezel ring.

The bezel assembly is held onto the mid-case by a ledge cut (horizontally) into the mid-case, and a retention ring which is squeezed into the bezel ring, in the space under the insert. Once the bezel ring is on the mid-case, it's not meant to come off, and forcing it will almost certainly bend the metal out of shape, as seen in the image I posted yesterday.

The insert sits in a channel cut into the bezel ring. Thus, getting the insert out doesn't require prying the bezel assembly off the mid-case. It just requires loosening up the adhesive holding it in place with a bit of heat, and prying it out of that channel.

If someone pries the bezel assembly off the case, and warps that part in the process, it won't go back onto the case, sit level, and turn. The watch is ruined.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> All of which is to say, sell replacement bezels. $100 with choice of insert. Make buyer provide pic.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So...basically encourage people to dis-assemble their case?

How many bezel assemblies would you order produced, if you were me? How many is enough, without being too much?

Let's play devil's advocate - some nitwit destroys the bezel ring prying it off the case, and I sell him a replacement. What if he can't get the replacement onto the mid-case, try as he might?

What if, in the process of ripping the bezel ring off the mid-case, he also damaged the mid-case, not just the bezel ring? Should I also sell the mid-case?

Where does it end?


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## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

at the caseback


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> So...basically encourage people to dis-assemble their case?
> 
> How many bezel assemblies would you order produced, if you were me? How many is enough, without being too much?
> 
> ...


Just sell replacement watches (don't tell anyone they are just the normal watches, they'll never know). Absolutely no change to your current business model......

......and don't underestimate the [email protected] that folks can get up to, just cause they read WUS and have found NTH (or whatever micro brand or obscure, for muggles, brand) doesn't mean they are [email protected] I bought a watch online that looked good in the sales pics but when it arrived it was very clear that the owner had no mechanical sympathy whatsoever, I mean how do you manage to mangle not just one but many bracelet screw pins?!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work(to date)









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Had a request from a new owner to post a photo of the Amphion Commando on the BoP bracelet. And since I can, I am...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Just sell replacement watches (don't tell anyone they are just the normal watches, they'll never know). Absolutely no change to your current business model......
> 
> ......and don't underestimate the [email protected] that folks can get up to, just cause they read WUS and have found NTH (or whatever micro brand or obscure, for muggles, brand) doesn't mean they are [email protected] I bought a watch online that looked good in the sales pics but when it arrived it was very clear that the owner had no mechanical sympathy whatsoever, I mean how do you manage to mangle not just one but many bracelet screw pins?!


I've done that - Guys who insisted I must sell them some part, I told them I'd sell them any part they want for an NTH Sub, for $650-$675, and that said part would arrive pre-assembled with all the other parts to make said watch, included at no extra charge.

None of those guys seemed to find that as funny as I did.


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## duc (Jan 24, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Had a request from a new owner to post a photo of the Amphion Commando on the BoP bracelet. And since I can, I am...
> 
> View attachment 15185477
> 
> ...


Yahoo! Awesome and thanks a lot for posting. Very friendly of you. I hope to return the favor many times.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

duc said:


> Yahoo! Awesome and thanks a lot for posting. Very friendly of you. I hope to return the favor many times.


Welcome to the nut house!


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## duc (Jan 24, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Welcome to the nut house!


I'm definitely right at home.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

duc said:


> Yahoo! Awesome and thanks a lot for posting. Very friendly of you. I hope to return the favor many times.


"Coast of Maine"?!? Cool -- whereabouts? I'm down in South Berwick, often to be found in York... And by chance is "duc" a reference to a motorcycle brand...?

FWIW, I had the BoR on my Scorpene with both Nomad and Commando bezel inserts. For me, it didn't work and I went back to the stock bracelet. BoR was an excellent bracelet, in its own right, however.


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## duc (Jan 24, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> "Coast of Maine"?!? Cool -- whereabouts? I'm down in South Berwick, often to be found in York... And by chance is "duc" a reference to a motorcycle brand...?
> 
> FWIW, I had the BoR on my Scorpene with both Nomad and Commando bezel inserts. For me, it didn't work and I went back to the stock bracelet. BoR was an excellent bracelet, in its own right, however.
> 
> ...


Hey Mconlonx, I am up just past Ellsworth (but do a lot of travel with work) and duc does refer to my beloved 900SS (which I moved on for a more luggagey R1150GS).

I think I spotted your BoR setup in some of the earlier pages of this thread. When I discovered DMJONEZ had a BoR and an Amphion Commando, I took a chance and shot him a PM. Of course, he must have been watching for incoming mail, because he responded immediately and posted up the snaps. I'm definitely headed in that direction.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> And then this happened...
> 
> View attachment 15183467
> 
> View attachment 15183469


Are those applied indices and numbers, and a slanted chapter ring I detect?
If so... noice.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

duc said:


> Hey Mconlonx, I am up just past Ellsworth (but do a lot of travel with work) and duc does refer to my beloved 900SS (which I moved on for a more luggagey R1150GS).


Which would mean Jerry over at Moto Milano, Windham and the crew at Street Cycle in Falmouth...? In the past, have had both a 95 900SS/CR and a 96 M900. Just sold a 09 Multistrada MTS1100s, and next week will be picking up a *way* more luggagey R1200RT...

Well met, bro!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> And then this happened...
> 
> View attachment 15183467
> 
> View attachment 15183469


Man... Both the XL designs shown so far are sweet, but alas, the watch is too large for me. On one hand, it bums me out; on the other, my wallet is thankful...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Are those applied indices and numbers, and a slanted chapter ring I detect?
> If so... noice.


Yes to both.


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## duc (Jan 24, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Which would mean Jerry over at Moto Milano, Windham and the crew at Street Cycle in Falmouth...? In the past, have had both a 95 900SS/CR and a 96 M900. Just sold a 09 Multistrada MTS1100s, and next week will be picking up a *way* more luggagey R1200RT...
> 
> Well met, bro!


No, I picked mine up from Pete Furnkey (sp?) of (I think) Maine Coast Motorsports, when it was a business in Searsport. He was always good to me, but I think he left under a cloud. When he left, Ducati and BMW representation in the mid-coast region disappeared.

I once stopped into that shop in Windham (after a get-off that hurt my pride more than the bike, but still broke some pieces) and was sorely disappointed with their knowledge. I would up doing all my business with Bruce at BCM in Laconia.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I had always liked the BoR on the Vanguard, but I think I prefer mesh.
 






BTW the pool is open.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Man... Both the XL designs shown so far are sweet, but alas, the watch is too large for me. On one hand, it bums me out; on the other, my wallet is thankful...


Three 2K1's so far - Black, Blue, and White versions of the Swiftsure.

Still haven't shown you guys the Thresher yet.

Or the little twist ending we have planned...


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Vail's finest work(to date)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing beats devilray, am sorry but that is the best NTH made to date.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

hwa's finest work

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Can't disagree with Pete.

I also kinda like this one...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Three 2K1's so far - Black, Blue, and White versions of the Swiftsure.
> 
> Still haven't shown you guys the Thresher yet.
> 
> Or the little twist ending we have planned...


I wait with bated breath....


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Man... Both the XL designs shown so far are sweet, but alas, the watch is too large for me. On one hand, it bums me out; on the other, my wallet is thankful...


Yeah I'm digging the black Swiftsure quite a bit. I just can't pull off that L2L though, 48mm is about all I can reasonably manage. So it'll be forever out of reach I'm afraid, just like that blue Squale 60ATM that still haunts me. Squale has just come out with their first completely new dial for their new 30ATM case though. It's not really what I want, but I'm hoping if it gets as many versions as the 1521 case has gotten, eventually there will be one for me. I'm also not quite sure what they were thinking printing black numbers on a deep navy blue bezel. I've also convinced myself that I want an Oris Aquis Clean Ocean again, and I'm also crushing on that Ball 40mm Engineer M Marvelight I posted a little while ago, so my wallet's dance card is most definitely full.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Peteagus said:


> hwa's finest work
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Landlubber. I like it. I really want a red dial watch... But I can't find one that ticks all the right boxes.

Looking at you, Doc.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Landlubber. I like it. I really want a red dial watch... But I can't find one that ticks all the right boxes.
> 
> Looking at you, Doc.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

yankeexpress said:


>


I actually saw your post with this in the Red Dial thread(along with about 10 more you posted). It's a good looking watch, but it doesn't grab me. Like I said, all the right boxes.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Landlubber. I like it. I really want a red dial watch... But I can't find one that ticks all the right boxes.
> 
> Looking at you, Doc.


Buy an nth, custom dial, boom.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I actually saw your post with this in the Red Dial thread(along with about 10 more you posted). It's a good looking watch, but it doesn't grab me. Like I said, all the right boxes.


Black Cherry version?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Black Cherry version?
> 
> View attachment 15186299


If only those were 40s

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Black Cherry version?
> 
> View attachment 15186299


That hits a little bit harder, your personal one? To be honest, the Orthos that really grabbed my eye was the white dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> That hits a little bit harder, your personal one? To be honest, the Orthos that really grabbed my eye was the white dial.


Nope, not mine, though that is my pic of one, taken on my old front porch.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Red dials are tough, _very_ difficult to get right. I think the red Zimbe Shogun is kinda cool, though I'd never buy one for myself.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Yep, red is kinda cool in all of it's hues............









Cheerz,

Alan


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

^Can’t decide if I like 1st or 2nd version better, but that is nooiice 


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerb today








Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## anrex (Jul 30, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah I'm digging the black Swiftsure quite a bit. I just can't pull off that L2L though, 48mm is about all I can reasonably manage. So it'll be forever out of reach I'm afraid, just like that blue Squale 60ATM that still haunts me. Squale has just come out with their first completely new dial for their new 30ATM case though. It's not really what I want, but I'm hoping if it gets as many versions as the 1521 case has gotten, eventually there will be one for me. I'm also not quite sure what they were thinking printing black numbers on a deep navy blue bezel. I've also convinced myself that I want an Oris Aquis Clean Ocean again, and I'm also crushing on that Ball 40mm Engineer M Marvelight I posted a little while ago, so my wallet's dance card is most definitely full.
> 
> View attachment 15186073


I received mine last week. Actually the numbers are silver instead of black...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just an update on a few things

1 - The combined DevilRay wait lists being kept by NTH retailers now include over 200 people. Only 300 DR's are being made in this production. If you're not on a retailer's wait list, and you're thinking about getting one, you should get on one of their wait lists, right away. https://nthwatches.com/pages/authorized-retailers

2 - In addition to replacement bezel inserts, the NTH website now also has both the v.1 and v.2 Oyster bracelet for the NTH Subs, as well as clasps and spare links available

3 - I'm in the process of adding the replacement inserts we have for the Lew & Huey Orthos to the site. They'll be up by next week. If you have an Orthos, and need an insert, or think you will, you should grab one before they're gone, as we won't be ordering more.

https://nthwatches.com/collections/accessories

EDIT/CORRECTION - the Orthos inserts are available now. I'd forgotten I'd already built them into the site, and just needed to make them visible.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Just an update on a few things
> 
> 1 - The combined DevilRay wait lists being kept by NTH retailers now include over 200 people. Only 300 DR's are being made in this production. If you're not on a retailer's wait list, and you're thinking about getting one, you should get on one of their wait lists, right away. https://nthwatches.com/pages/authorized-retailers
> 
> ...


Clasps have been what I've wanted.


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## Cart3rlfc (Feb 5, 2020)

docvail said:


> Folks, this is why you do NOT pry the bezels off the case. We do NOT sell either of these parts separately, or together. You pry the bezel off the case, and ruin it, that's on you, sorry to tell you.
> 
> View attachment 15183509
> 
> View attachment 15183511


Hello,

I'm more of a lurker around this forum, anyway needless to say I was quite surprised to see my email contacting doc appear on this forum 

I have attached proof that I did indeed pick up the watch up used (glad that doc has some faith in me on this!)

Watch was described as in excellent condition, unfortunately it has been a little bit butchered it seems, I have shown the price I received the watch for to, its still such a bargain im tempted to try and somehow get the bezel back straight, i do not know if this is possible, maybe doc can shed some light on this? (Obviously a DIY attempted)

Anyway it was a lovely watch, loved the gilt relief dial, and despite the bezel being wonky it did have a nice action still.

Having said that I was a little disappointed to learn that you can not buy spare parts for these watches, It would be amazing if you could and is maybe something to be considered?

This watch is now packed up and ready to be sent back tomorrow morning for a refund... but I'm still struggling to send it back as I do really love the watch, again if anyone knows of a possible way to bend the bezel back?

Also attached an image of when the bezel popped off after trying to get it straight.




















Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## Cart3rlfc (Feb 5, 2020)

This is the un exaggerated picture, this is how the bezel lays, but if you pull up on the bezel with slight pressure it becomes much more pronounced as in second pic.














Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Now that I see the pics, I know exactly who did the mod and sold it to you. I remember his post on FB, admitting he didn't read the instructions.

There's little chance of getting that part straightened out.

Don't send it back yet. Let me see what I can do about getting that part replaced. 


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Cart3rlfc (Feb 5, 2020)

docvail said:


> Now that I see the pics, I know exactly who did the mod and sold it to you. I remember his post on FB, admitting he didn't read the instructions.
> 
> There's little chance of getting that part straightened out.
> 
> ...


Hello doc,

Really? If it could be replaced I'd be so thankful!

It is disappointing if he has sold it knowing the damaged he has done, it was literally listed as in perfect condition, the watch is only a month and half old, as i have the original invoice he sent with the watch.

Thanks

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Don't send it back yet. Let me see what I can do about getting that part replaced.


And people say you're a jerk.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Dupe


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cart3rlfc said:


> Hello doc,
> 
> Really? If it could be replaced I'd be so thankful!
> 
> ...


You got it from a guy in Portugal, right?

There was some discussion about it on FB. He made the comment below in response to someone. I don't think English is his first language.

Probably too embarrassed to contact us about it.

I was wondering how he managed to get the bezel off without warping it, if he didn't follow the instructions.

I guess we know he didn't.









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> And people say you're a jerk.


People aren't always wrong.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Cart3rlfc (Feb 5, 2020)

docvail said:


> You got it from a guy in Portugal, right?
> 
> There was some discussion about it on FB. He made the comment below in response to someone. I don't think English is his first language.
> 
> ...


Correct, He was Portuguese but said he now lives in the Netherlands.

I am really disappointed, I asked him and he lied to me, even after I shown him the evidence of the damage.

I guess I have to much trust in people to be honest and inherently good 

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Cart3rlfc said:


> Correct, He was Portuguese but said he now lives in the Netherlands.
> 
> I am really disappointed, I asked him and he lied to me, even after I shown him the evidence of the damage.
> 
> ...


Is the person you bought it from a member in here?

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

You should send it back. Zero chance he didn’t know it was damaged. Zero chance his command of English is so poor he chose “perfect” instead of, “effed.” 

If doc bails you out, his choice of course. But the next guy and the next guy, and pretty soon he’s selling bezels


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Woo Orthos ii bezel inserts!!

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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Doc, this is one of the coolest things I've ever seen on an internet forum. This is the reason why I buy your watches.

You piss me off sometimes, but man alive you are a class act. I hope you can help this guy out; it's a beautiful watch.

And messed up watch guy: You should keep the watch, even in that messed up condition. That's a great price for the watch, even chowed up like it is.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just fyi for anyone confused...the guy who sold the watch isn't Adam Lanbourn. He was responding to something Adam said in that discussion. I cropped his name out of the screenshot to protect the...well, not "innocent", but you know what I mean.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Doc, this is one of the coolest things I've ever seen on an internet forum. This is the reason why I buy your watches.
> 
> You piss me off sometimes, but man alive you are a class act. I hope you can help this guy out; it's a beautiful watch.
> 
> And messed up watch guy: You should keep the watch, even in that messed up condition. That's a great price for the watch, even chowed up like it is.


I piss everybody off, at least once, eventually.

I'm okay with that, and me.

I actually like me.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Cart3rlfc said:


> Correct, He was Portuguese but said he now lives in the Netherlands.
> 
> I am really disappointed, I asked him and he lied to me, even after I shown him the evidence of the damage.
> 
> ...





mplsabdullah said:


> Is the person you bought it from a member in here?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


And critically important, did he have 100 posts!?!? ;-)


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## Cart3rlfc (Feb 5, 2020)

3WR said:


> And critically important, did he have 100 posts!?!? ;-)


Hello,

I'm not sure if he is a member of the forum, i bought the watch off chrono24 from him, so thankfully have there buyers protection.

I am hanging on to the hope that doc may be able to replace the part as mentioned earlier, would be a shame to have such a lovely watch go to waste, and also to ship it back to him (the seller) as he will probably just end up selling it to the next unsuspecting folk.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Getting the chrono24 refund might be tricky. Looking at the photos from the sales post, even if the text was saying "perfect condition", in the images the bezel effed-up-ness was kinda visible. So a third-party might judge it either way depending on the mood...


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## Cart3rlfc (Feb 5, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> Getting the chrono24 refund might be tricky. Looking at the photos from the sales post, even if the text was saying "perfect condition", in the images the bezel effed-up-ness was kinda visible. So a third-party might judge it either way depending on the mood...


Hello,

He has agreed to it, so its all in writing on the chat now.

I'm going to wait and see if doc can work his magic then if not it will go back.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Cart3rlfc said:


> Hello,
> 
> He has agreed to it, so its all in writing on the chat now.
> 
> ...


Just send it back and get a refund.
Why even bother.
Spend a few more hundred and get a brand new one if you like the watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

First bezel swap done. The Santa Fe now looks perfect to my eyes.










Now I just need to do a bezel and hands swap on my Barracuda.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Tikuna back on the Burgundy and Black today.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Took the bracelet off, now to figure out which strap.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Took the bracelet off, now to figure out which strap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My vote is either one, two, or the leather(sinner).


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> My vote is either one, two, or the leather(sinner).


I agree with you.
I have mounted it on leather for now










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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Took the bracelet off, now to figure out which strap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lemme quote this post once more to _really_ slow the loading time of this page to a crawl for good....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Getting the chrono24 refund might be tricky. Looking at the photos from the sales post, even if the text was saying "perfect condition", in the images the bezel effed-up-ness was kinda visible. So a third-party might judge it either way depending on the mood...


I may be wrong, but I don't think all the pics Carter posted were from the sales post. I think some of those were his, taken after delivery.

Regardless, whenever there's a discrepancy between images and text description, I think the benefit of the doubt should go to the buyer, not the seller. The seller should know the condition, and describe it accurately in words, supplemented by accurate pics (which is to say, in-focus images, of any and all trouble spots).

Images won't tell you if the bezel turns and clicks. Only the seller would know that. If the problems weren't disclosed, and the description suggested the condition was "excellent", or even "perfect", how could anyone interpret that as "mangled to the point of being inoperable"?

---

In a related story...

I just purchased a watch on eBay, on behalf of a friend. The watch was described as "new, unworn", for which the asking price was an absolute steal. The images in the listing were't overly clear, certainly not enough for me to tell if the watch was indeed new/unworn, one way or the other.

My friend just received the watch, and found that description was laughably inaccurate. The watch has obviously been worn. There is at least one obvious mark on the case side, by a lug-hole. And the bracelet's been sized, some screws having been mangled and some links scratched up in the process.

My friend's decided to keep it, as the price was good enough for the condition of the watch, but I certainly won't be leaving positive feedback for the seller, nor will I be taking his descriptions at face value in the future, if I see more listings from him.


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## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

Rainy day in Ireland


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Took the bracelet off, now to figure out which strap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOS. Wall of Straps!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Danielc117 said:


> Rainy day in Ireland
> View attachment 15191355


I had a really good time in Ireland a few years back. Beautiful countryside. Did the usual touristy things in Dublin too. Toured the Guinness Brewery, did a tasting at the Jameson Distillery in "Jamesons own office", witnessed a car fire....

I tell people it was an IRA assassination attempt.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Hey guys, I am new here. I thought this would be a cool way to connect with fellow enthusiasts, while also asking something that's been on my mind. I just ordered the Amphion Vintage Gilt (my 4th NTH) with the idea of doing a bezel swap (no prying off the bezel, I promise) and after browsing the catalogue I think I'll go for the Oberon v2 insert. I just wanted to double check before ordering that the colour and lume match up to the dial. By the description on the site it should, but since I am in Germany, I'd rather check before ordering. Also, is there any difference between the Oberon v2 and Kiger Milsub inserts? Some other identical inserts are grouped together in the selection, and while these two look the same, they are not grouped.

While I am here I might also introduce my current daily









I put it on the red nato just when I feel like a dash of colour, but it's usually on the bracelet or more often an olive nato.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Pattern on the strap and dial matches nicely.










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## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> I had a really good time in Ireland a few years back. Beautiful countryside. Did the usual touristy things in Dublin too. Toured the Guinness Brewery, did a tasting at the Jameson Distillery in "Jamesons own office", witnessed a car fire....
> 
> I tell people it was an IRA assassination attempt.


You haven't been to Ireland unless you have seen a car on fire and a horribly put together horse drawn carriage on the highway.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Danielc117 said:


> Rainy day in Ireland
> View attachment 15191355


Bond bump


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Hey guys, I am new here. I thought this would be a cool way to connect with fellow enthusiasts, while also asking something that's been on my mind. I just ordered the Amphion Vintage Gilt (my 4th NTH) with the idea of doing a bezel swap (no prying off the bezel, I promise) and after browsing the catalogue I think I'll go for the Oberon v2 insert. I just wanted to double check before ordering that the colour and lume match up to the dial. By the description on the site it should, but since I am in Germany, I'd rather check before ordering. Also, is there any difference between the Oberon v2 and Kiger Milsub inserts? Some other identical inserts are grouped together in the selection, and while these two look the same, they are not grouped.
> 
> While I am here I might also introduce my current daily
> 
> ...


Welcome to the nuthouse!

Seeing as you're on your fourth NTH already I'd say your well on your way down the rabbit hole. Doubly so now that you wanna mod one.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I may be wrong, but I don't think all the pics Carter posted were from the sales post. I think some of those were his, taken after delivery.
> 
> Regardless, whenever there's a discrepancy between images and text description, I think the benefit of the doubt should go to the buyer, not the seller. The seller should know the condition, and describe it accurately in words, supplemented by accurate pics (which is to say, in-focus images, of any and all trouble spots).
> 
> ...


I had a similar experience with a watch I bought off Chrono24, watch was described as used but in good condition and after the offer I made was accepted the deal was quite sweet. However, I'd never bought from Chrono24 and it was a private seller, so I was a little nervous, that and the photos were poor. I did ask the buyer if there was any damage and went through a list of things to tick off. Apparently there was only one little dink in the case, tiny apparently and hardly noticeable, but nothing else. So I went for it......

......watch arrives and the first thing is the guy shipped it with the crown fully unscrewed and open o|. The condition of the watch is not good at all; this watch looks like its been beaten up, there's a ton of wrist cheese and biological matter embedded everywhere and the little dink isn't so little. Things get worse when sizing the bracelet and finding mangled screws. Anyway, I raise a complaint against the buyer and he gets all aggressive on me from the start, but eventually we agree a further discount which makes it even more of a steal.

Several evenings of patiently cleaning, stripping the bracelet down, brushing and polishing and it looks pretty darn nice and I'm a happy bunny .


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Took the bracelet off, now to figure out which strap
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


1 or 4 for me 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Hey guys, I am new here. I thought this would be a cool way to connect with fellow enthusiasts, while also asking something that's been on my mind. I just ordered the Amphion Vintage Gilt (my 4th NTH) with the idea of doing a bezel swap (no prying off the bezel, I promise) and after browsing the catalogue I think I'll go for the Oberon v2 insert. I just wanted to double check before ordering that the colour and lume match up to the dial. By the description on the site it should, but since I am in Germany, I'd rather check before ordering. Also, is there any difference between the Oberon v2 and Kiger Milsub inserts? Some other identical inserts are grouped together in the selection, and while these two look the same, they are not grouped.
> 
> While I am here I might also introduce my current daily
> 
> ...


Welcome to the madness.

Yes, the Oberon bezel insert lume will match the Amphion Vintage Gilt lume. They're both C3.

Also, yes, the Oberon v.2 insert is the same as the Kiger Insert. That they weren't pictured together was an oversight.


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Santa Cruz reporting for duty:










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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Santa Cruz reporting for duty:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Outstanding.

Strap details?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> ---
> 
> In a related story...
> 
> ...


I haven't purchased from Chrono24 so I can't comment about that, but I can say that eBay's buyer protection on these sorts of things is very good. You just file a "significantly not as described" claim, and they'll take care of it.

Fortunately my eBay purchases have been quite positive. I got my first Zodiac SSW brand new from a GM dealer on eBay for an absolute steal. I rolled the dice a bit on my Seiko SDGC009 - for whatever reason a lot of JDM imports on eBay just don't have great photos, and this was another case of that. The 009 is so rare though, and the price was reasonable, so I went for it, and the watch, considering it's ~8 years old and used, looked spectacular. My other JDM import from Yahoo Auctions Japan by way of Buyee was much less positive, definitely won't be doing that again.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I haven't purchased from Chrono24 so I can't comment about that, but I can say that eBay's buyer protection on these sorts of things is very good. You just file a "significantly not as described" claim, and they'll take care of it.
> 
> Fortunately my eBay purchases have been quite positive. I got my first Zodiac SSW brand new from a GM dealer on eBay for an absolute steal. I rolled the dice a bit on my Seiko SDGC009 - for whatever reason a lot of JDM imports on eBay just don't have great photos, and this was another case of that. The 009 is so rare though, and the price was reasonable, so I went for it, and the watch, considering it's ~8 years old and used, looked spectacular. My other JDM import from Yahoo Auctions Japan by way of Buyee was much less positive, definitely won't be doing that again.


I'm well aware of eBay's buyer protection. Like i said, though, the price was good, even considering the actual condition, so we don't plan to return it.


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

3WR said:


> Outstanding.
> 
> Strap details?


It's a Haveston Forecastle Canvas. I bought a couple of Haveston canvas straps on a whim and they are really nice!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Now on a list for a v2 DevilRay. |> Loved my v1 and, since Orange isn't available this time, am going Black. Excited to see the minor updates.

And an old shot of my v1 prior to the 'flip'.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> It's a Haveston Forecastle Canvas. I bought a couple of Haveston canvas straps on a whim and they are really nice!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Surprised it fits, isnt it too thick? Or are you using curved bars

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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

I put the springboard over the strap, it was too tight to feed the strap through. 


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

My picture taking skills are not good. But the watch is awesome

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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Santa Cruz reporting for duty:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Strap pairs perfectly.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Almost forgot I had this. I think I listed it for sale and forgot about it. Maybe it's a keeper, I dunno.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Speaking of Devilrays, would owners of the Silver/White Devilray be able to post photos of it on a strap that is NOT a stainless steel bracelet? I was searching for such photos, and came across only a few. For example (not my photo):


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

gokce said:


> Speaking of Devilrays, would owners of the Silver/White Devilray be able to post photos of it on a strap that is NOT a stainless steel bracelet? I was searching for such photos, and came across only a few. For example (not my photo):


I believe "whilver" is the color you are looking for

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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

I invested in one of these ultrasonic cleaners, and it works amazingly for cleaning, um, pre-loved bracelets.

Ultrasonic Jewelry Eyeglass and Lens Cleaner https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003BG9Z8I/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_lRtmFHpeRNYw8

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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

gokce said:


> Speaking of Devilrays, would owners of the Silver/White Devilray be able to post photos of it on a strap that is NOT a stainless steel bracelet?


I have two. One on stock bracelet with aftermarket Zuludiver clasp and one on BC rubber using the same clasp. I put the silver one on leather sometimes but don't have any pics.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Almost forgot I had this. I think I listed it for sale and forgot about it. Maybe it's a keeper, I dunno.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had mine (also the black no-date) in its travel case, prepared for sale, for the better part of a month. Then it started to look like I wouldn't be able to get one of the new black ones being assembled now, so I decided to keep it, and started wearing it again.

It's definitely one of my favorite designs. I'm tempted to remove the bracelet and put it on a strap, to lighten it up some, but getting the end-links onto the case after the last time was such a PITA I swore I'd never take the bracelet off again.

I only just recently realized the "half-links" on either side of the clasp aren't fully articulated. Never noticed it before, until I had to re-size it recently.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

The devil ray would look slick with an integrated rubber strap. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I had mine on Erikas strap but it looks best on bracelet in my opinion.

It needs a thick strap but there is not much room in lugs to fit it properly.

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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tanker G1 said:


> View attachment 15195203


The blue dial really makes the watch look smaller. Looks nice.

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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Danielc117 said:


> Rainy day in Ireland
> View attachment 15191355


Nice one, I lived in Dublin for about 11 non-consecutive years. Just moved back home to Germany last year. I do recognize that weather from your pic though.. Looking good, I never noticed that the NTH logo on the Skipjack was a little different from the other ones. I like it


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Welcome to the madness.
> 
> Yes, the Oberon bezel insert lume will match the Amphion Vintage Gilt lume. They're both C3.
> 
> Also, yes, the Oberon v.2 insert is the same as the Kiger Insert. That they weren't pictured together was an oversight.


Thanks Doc for the confirmation. Time to put in an order!

I've modded quite a few watches since I got into this hobby a few years ago. Actually, I got into watch modding before I got into watches for real. I like doing things with my hands, and the thought of making my own watch really appealed to me even though I had never worn a watch in my life. So I got me a cheap as chips Vostok, then a Sea Urchin, and then the Catalina... Since then I built a few up from parts, modded a few more. And that was the beginning of a great new hobby and a perpetually empty savings account. Anyways, Ihope that getting the bezel insert out with a heat gun should be doable.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Nice one, I lived in Dublin for about 11 non-consecutive years. Just moved back home to Germany last year. I do recognize that weather from your pic though.. Looking good, I never noticed that the NTH logo on the Skipjack was a little different from the other ones. I like it


The "official" logo is the NTH within that stylized circle, but we most often just use the simpler NTH without it. The reasoning is usually fairly arbitrary, on my part. Sometimes I think it looks better one way or the other, depending on the rest of the dial and handset.


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## duc (Jan 24, 2016)

Team, I'm here to present my credentials:

















Many thanks to gaopa for making me a sweet deal on a perfect watch (appreciating the watch speaks for itself).

I'm into tool watches that don't yell out too much. I also fell in love with the bezel on this one. Well done!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

duc said:


> No, I picked mine up from Pete Furnkey (sp?) of (I think) Maine Coast Motorsports, when it was a business in Searsport. He was always good to me, but I think he left under a cloud. When he left, Ducati and BMW representation in the mid-coast region disappeared.
> 
> I once stopped into that shop in Windham (after a get-off that hurt my pride more than the bike, but still broke some pieces) and was sorely disappointed with their knowledge. I would up doing all my business with Bruce at BCM in Laconia.


I was gonna let this convo go without taking part in it. It's been more than 20 years since I owned or rode a motorbike, and I figured the urge had left me.

That was until last night, when a guy rode up on one of these, as my wife and I were out eating dinner in our little town...









V-Twin Ducati Scrambler, looking for all the world like a vintage British Cafe Racer, even more so than my last bike, a '95 Triumph Speed Triple.

I don't know how or when I'll get one, but the stirring in my loins suggests it will be mine, eventually.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I was gonna let this convo go without taking part in it. It's been more than 20 years since I owned or rode a motorbike, and I figured the urge had left me.
> 
> That was until last night, when a guy rode up on one of these, as my wife and I were out eating dinner in our little town...
> 
> ...


Ducati. Nice choice.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> The blue dial really makes the watch look smaller. Looks nice.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed. I think the black rubber looks great on that watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This one is mine. 1976 BMW R100/7.


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

duc said:


> Team, I'm here to present my credentials:
> 
> View attachment 15197591
> 
> ...


You are a man after my own mind - a dog as your avatar, a guitar on the wall and Doc Vail steel on your wrist!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So a while back Doc was asking about watch thickness and WR and some high WR pieces that people knew of. Someone brought up Lüm-Tec.

I'd checked them out before, but really only in passing. So I went and looked at the watch that was brought up, I think it was the 600M. In doing that I saw the option to preorder a 350M. The blue dial -2 option really caught my eye and I brought it up here. Someone said simply "buy the Lüm-Tec".

Well. I bought it. And it arrived today. 43mm x 12mm. Anti mag. Anti shock. SW200-1 regulated to 3spd. Obviously, killer lume.
















Now I need me an NTH 2K1.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> I was gonna let this convo go without taking part in it. It's been more than 20 years since I owned or rode a motorbike, and I figured the urge had left me.
> 
> That was until last night, when a guy rode up on one of these, as my wife and I were out eating dinner in our little town...
> 
> ...


No brainer, replace the '54' with the NTH logo.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I think I would love to have a motorcycle. Having something that is a manageable size (compared to a second car) to tinker with sounds awesome. Just can never figure out when, where I’d feel safe riding one. Or feel comfortable due to weather. 

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance just came up in another thread. Strong one two punch with these cool motorcycle photos.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

3WR said:


> Just can never figure out when, where I'd feel safe riding one.


I've been a long-distance rider for more than 20 years. The number of people I see texting/reading their phones while driving makes me sad. I'll never feel as safe as I once did but I ain't stopping.

BMW GSA









My other rig is a Yamaha FJR if I feel the need to cross the country 'rapidly'.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Dressy diver nirvana achieved...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> So a while back Doc was asking about watch thickness and WR and some high WR pieces that people knew of. Someone brought up Lüm-Tec.
> 
> I'd checked them out before, but really only in passing. So I went and looked at the watch that was brought up, I think it was the 600M. In doing that I saw the option to preorder a 350M. The blue dial -2 option really caught my eye and I brought it up here. Someone said simply "buy the Lüm-Tec".
> 
> ...


Nice. The first watch I bought after graduating from Citizen Eco-drives a few years back was a Lum-tec M74 quartz chrono. It had an issue where the second hand wouldn't return to 12 after a reset, and they took care of it very quickly. My SKX purchase prompted me to sell it since i was automatic only from then on, but it was a very nice watch, and they definitely don't mess around with lume.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

3WR said:


> View attachment 15198157


What bracelet is that?

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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> What bracelet is that?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Ginault


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Two NTH BOR arrived. Had to carefully consider which watches to install them on.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> I've been a long-distance rider for more than 20 years. The number of people I see texting/reading their phones while driving makes me sad. I'll never feel as safe as I once did but I ain't stopping.


This. I stopped riding before mobile devices really took off, but I have friends who still ride, and I see them periodically making social media posts about the dangers of texting while driving pose to riders.

Then again, I've almost been killed at least half a dozen times already, and except for the one hospitalization and the huge scar on my forehead, there's not a scratch on me, so there seems to be a good possibility I'm indestructible.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

3WR said:


> I think I would love to have a motorcycle. Having something that is a manageable size (compared to a second car) to tinker with sounds awesome. Just can never figure out when, where I'd feel safe riding one. Or feel comfortable due to weather.
> 
> Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance just came up in another thread. Strong one two punch with these cool motorcycle photos.


After 15 years of on and off motorbiking I eventually gave up on it at the end of last year. As much as I'd loved biking several things had happened, firstly I just didn't have time anymore for getting out on the bike, secondly I seemed to have lost the enjoyment (probably because all I ever did was commute to work) and thirdly I seem to have become much more risk averse. Bike sold to a friend at work, all the gear sold on ebay and I felt a little bit sad at this...... 




























......however, there is a fourth reason for getting out of motorbikes:



















.....to get fitter I'd gotten back into mountain biking (and also now road biking), so whilst I've lost the motorbike I'm still very happy with the human powered bikes 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Two NTH BOR arrived. Had to carefully consider which watches to install them on.


Dammit Yankee!!! The BOP really looks spectacular on the Tikuna. You may have just swayed me to buy one. On the plus side, I'm sure it would also look good on the renegade and Carolina. Man, I have held out for so long. . .

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Morning dog walk in the park with the barracuda. By far my dressiest diver, I kinda baby it and only wear it infrequently, but the way the light catches the sunburst on the dial and the applied gold indices is just something else!

The past few pages really put a couple of watches back on my radar that I had initially dismissed.. The Skipjack and Santa Fe in particular look amazing, and even though the renders give you a good idea of what they look like, they cannot capture everything.

I regret that both my leg powered as well as my gas powered two wheelers are only gathering dust for the moment. I might get back on my bicycle soon, but the motorbike (1985 Kawasaki GPZ 750.. the original Top Gun bike) is definitely out unless I put in a good bit of money to get it back to road safety.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Bought a use 1971 650 Yamaha in 1974. Kept it for about 4 years. 








Rented this for a day back in 2017. Hadn't been on a bike for over 40 years. Had my wife with me and had to deal with light drizzle off and on.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

If I bought a motorcycle, I would die. It’s pretty much that simple. I would be one of those guys on the news who just got too fast and lost control. 

So, no motorcycle for me. 

Unrelated to motorcycles, but related to NTH, what thickness spring bar do the bracelets take?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> View attachment 15198461
> 
> 
> Morning dog walk in the park with the barracuda. By far my dressiest diver, I kinda baby it and only wear it infrequently, but the way the light catches the sunburst on the dial and the applied gold indices is just something else!
> ...


The Skipjack is underrated, IMO. I think people look past it because it isn't overly reminiscent of the more iconic Rolex/Tudor/Omega models, but it's a really good-looking watch in person. We produced 100 since 2018, and as of my last count, there were only 8-10 pieces left worldwide. I doubt we'll make more, ever, but certainly no time soon.

There's a Santa Fe on eBay now (not my listing) - https://www.ebay.com/itm/NTH-Santa-...678208?hash=item4b7b35ea80:g:KqQAAOSwO1de2wcf. You don't see them up for sale too often. We only made 25, and that was three years ago.


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> The Skipjack is underrated, IMO. I think people look past it because it isn't overly reminiscent of the more iconic Rolex/Tudor/Omega models, but it's a really good-looking watch in person. We produced 100 since 2018, and as of my last count, there were only 8-10 pieces left worldwide. I doubt we'll make more, ever, but certainly no time soon.
> 
> There's a Santa Fe on eBay now (not my listing) - https://www.ebay.com/itm/NTH-Santa-...678208?hash=item4b7b35ea80:g:KqQAAOSwO1de2wcf. You don't see them up for sale too often. We only made 25, and that was three years ago.


I've got to agree. The Skipjack is definitely one of the best designs and one that I've never seen in the wild (outside of my own) or even in many posts.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> The "official" logo is the NTH within that stylized circle, but we most often just use the simpler NTH without it. The reasoning is usually fairly arbitrary, on my part. Sometimes I think it looks better one way or the other, depending on the rest of the dial and handset.


The stylized circle... On one hand it conveys a trail, gradually fading away, but at first glance, before I blew an image up to take a look at it, was convinced it was an ouroboros -- snake eating it's own tail, an occult symbol of endlessness or infinity. Curious if either or was the consideration behind the design...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> If I bought a motorcycle, I would die. It's pretty much that simple. I would be one of those guys on the news who just got too fast and lost control.
> 
> So, no motorcycle for me.
> 
> Unrelated to motorcycles, but related to NTH, what thickness spring bar do the bracelets take?


If you mean the Oysters, I think they're 1.8mm.

If you mean the BOR, I think they're 1.2mm.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Tanker G1 said:


> I've been a long-distance rider for more than 20 years. The number of people I see texting/reading their phones while driving makes me sad. *I'll never feel as safe as I once did but I ain't stopping.
> *
> BMW GSA
> 
> My other rig is a Yamaha FJR if I feel the need to cross the country 'rapidly'.


Nice, and I agree with you...

Currently have a 88 Honda Hawk NT650 GT, which is a bit ratty, but there is a permanent place in my heart for these bikes. Did a SS1k on one, 1380mi in 24hrs, which is a real accomplishment on a Hawk, considering it's got a 3gal tank...

Should be picking up a new (used) 07 BMW R1200RT later this week, which will be the mile-eater touring/commuting rig.

Buddy of mine got a Duc Scrambler a couple years ago and loves it. I'm a fan of the brand, but for some reason, the bikes feel... I dunno, kinda fragile? If that makes sense? Maybe just high-strung? It's not something I can quantify or point to any specific qualities, just a feelz. Were I looking for a fun bike, I'd opt for an older S2R Monster, and for retro... well, this time around new bike purchase came down to the RT vs one of the retro Moto Guzzi V7, especially the one with the chrome tank... Head won out over heart, this time...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of spring-bars, has anyone here ever been unable to compress a spring bar enough to get it out?

I tried swapping in a different clasp on an old Lew & Huey bracelet (produced by my old factory) over the weekend, and I couldn't get one of the bars out of the old clasp, no matter what I did. I think whoever assembled it must have shoe-horned a 22mm where a 20mm was supposed to go. 

I ended up having to leave it attached to the link, and removing both in order to swap in a new clasp (along with swapping in a new link). 

Bananas.

---

Side-note to that story - the clasp I wanted to swap in was an un-branded sample of the ratcheting expansion clasp we used on the Tropics and DevilRay, which my vendor had sent me back in 2016 or 2017. I wanted to put it on my Spectre II bracelet, which I couldn't get perfectly sized.

It seems I never bothered to remove the plastic protective covers on the clasp, and after 3-4 years, it didn't want to come off. It just kept breaking whenever I pulled at it. I had to scrape it off, which of course scratched the finish all to hell, and still couldn't get all of the plastic residue off.

I ended up going at it with some sandpaper, first medium grit to remove the remaining residue, then fine grit to try to restore the original brushed finish. The "brushing" isn't perfectly parallel like it was before, but I'm pretty pleased with the results overall.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Motorcycles? I useta do dat, but I gave up my endorsement a while back, when I was 73yo. Sold both bikes the next year. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is, well you know how it goes.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

RmacMD said:


> Bought a use 1971 650 Yamaha in 1974. Kept it for about 4 years.
> View attachment 15199061
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> RmacMD said:
> 
> 
> > Bought a use 1971 650 Yamaha in 1974. Kept it for about 4 years.
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> ...that's what I thoght at first as well, with the lume pip on top being the eye of the snake. Actually, I was convinced that it was a snake until I looked closer and saw that it's actually a little triangle and pip..


I did the original and second draft of the NTH logo, which was just the three letters, slanted so that the H looked like a mirror-image of the N. I asked Aaron to add some punch and polish to it.

In addition to giving the three letters their six-sided footprint, he was the one who added the circle. It not only incorporates his triangle/pip bezel design from the Subs, which were the first NTH model, the line of the circle is broken, and tapered, to suggest motion (somewhat like the Nike "Swoosh"). It's meant to specifically suggest the counter-clockwise turning of the bezel, coming to rest with that triangle and pip at 12.

I think it's pretty clever.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just hopped on a waitlist for a v2 silver DevilRay. 

I couldn’t shake the urge to check one out in the metal 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> If you mean the Oysters, I think they're 1.8mm.
> 
> If you mean the BOR, I think they're 1.2mm.


Thanks for this info. Do you know what the tip size is?

Thanks doc.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Did not know 1.2mm spring bars even exist, anything thinner than 1.8, I would not trust.
Cant you just fit the same bars that come with NtH subs into BOR? 

^spring bar tips for the subs are 0.8mm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> Thanks for this info. Do you know what the tip size is?
> 
> Thanks doc.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I can't tell if you're serious or joking, and either way, I don't know the answer, but I think they're 1mm.

We did ship your watch with spring-bars included, did we not?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Cant you just fit the same bars that come with NtH subs into BOR?


No.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> I can't tell if you're serious or joking, and either way, I don't know the answer, but I think they're 1mm.
> 
> We did ship your watch with spring-bars included, did we not?


Thanks doc. Was serious. Was going to order surplus spring bars and wanted to make sure they fit the tip.

Although I can see how there could be many laughs to be had from the comment.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> Thanks doc. Was serious. Was going to order surplus spring bars and wanted to make sure they fit the tip.
> 
> Although I can see how there could be many laughs to be had from the comment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Do you not have calipers?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Do you not have calipers?


No. Would be a wise investment though.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> No. Would be a wise investment though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Buy calipers. Trust me.

Don't get a cheap set. Trust me.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Buy calipers. Trust me.
> 
> Don't get a cheap set. Trust me.


Trust I have, obi doc kenobi. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> Trust I have, obi doc kenobi.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Understand I had a big wall of text prepared to post, but held back.

From your seat, asking about the diameter of a spring bar tip probably seems like an innocent enough question. For me, it feels like someone just opened up a can of worms and dumped it on my desk.

Yes, I know, it sounds crazy. To me, it's entirely logical, if you've been sitting where I am.

Some questions just don't need to be directed my way.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work with and without lume.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Totally understand, was more a question for the group but quoted your post for reference. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Understand I had a big wall of text prepared to post, but held back.


Who are you and what have you done with Doc?!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Who are you and what have you done with Doc?!


It was one of those days. Three separate incidents of someone dumping a mess in front of me, expecting me to handle it. A lot of time got sucked up, time I'd planned to spend in more productive ways.

I hate when time gets sucked up that way.

I try not to let the stress of those situations infect my interactions with people online, but it happens all too often, much to my regret.

Today, I was able to suppress the urge to do a text-dump, as a response to a question which was unnecessary, yet harmless. Behind the scenes, I may be putting out multiple fires, but I know no one here sees that, and so my responses often seem disproportionate.

Let's call it progress being made.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

RotorRonin said:


> If I bought a motorcycle, I would die. It's pretty much that simple. I would be one of those guys on the news who just got too fast and lost control.
> 
> So, no motorcycle for me.


Yep, I'd never ride one, and wouldn't let my significant other either (not that she's ever shown any interest in a bike). It would either be the patch of black ice, or the guy who decides to fling open his car door at the last second, or the truck trying to change lanes, or the teenager texting her BFF who runs the stop sign. Something would get me, it's just a question of when. If I've got to be hyper vigilant every second I'm on the bike, that doesn't sound like fun, it sounds like work.

I'll take a Jetski instead. No ice, no stop signs, no car doors, no freight trucks. Also, hitting the water even at a decent clip, is A LOT nicer than hitting concrete.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)




----------



## roscoe67 (Apr 9, 2020)

Sorry if this was answered somewhere in the 193 previous pages, but has NTH ever considered putting a GMT hand on one of their models? I am guessing the GMT movements may be a bit bigger, so maybe space is an issue (or there are other design issues), but it would be great as an option. I travel a lot, and the 24hr GMT hand is genuinely useful (the GMT bezel seems redundant on GMT-handed watch, though).


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

roscoe67 said:


> Sorry if this was answered somewhere in the 193 previous pages, but has NTH ever considered putting a GMT hand on one of their models? I am guessing the GMT movements may be a bit bigger, so maybe space is an issue (or there are other design issues), but it would be great as an option. I travel a lot, and the 24hr GMT hand is genuinely useful (the GMT bezel seems redundant on GMT-handed watch, though).


Yep. Just did a quick within-thread search for ya because I remembered we fairly recently did our "Yo Doc, sup with that GMT" dance.

Starts on page 39.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

roscoe67 said:


> Sorry if this was answered somewhere in the 193 previous pages, but has NTH ever considered putting a GMT hand on one of their models? I am guessing the GMT movements may be a bit bigger, so maybe space is an issue (or there are other design issues), but it would be great as an option. I travel a lot, and the 24hr GMT hand is genuinely useful (the GMT bezel seems redundant on GMT-handed watch, though).


No. The answer is no.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...for anyone wondering what happened with the guy who has the watch that appeared to have been destroyed in an ill-fated attempt at modding it...

Short version -

We've been emailing back and forth over the last few days. He was somehow able to get the bezel ring bent back into plane (i.e, flat), sitting level on the case, and operating correctly. 

But he found that the bezel assembly could be pried off the case by hand, which definitely shouldn't happen. And we are certain that the case wasn't initially defective, as it was one that was produced after we'd discovered and fixed that problem with our case supplier, months earlier.

At first we thought the case or bezel ring may have suffered some other damage, which was harder to see. We thought he might need to replace the entire case, which would be more expensive to do.

But after a bit of investigation, it turns out that the bezel retention ring (spring, whatever you want to call it - the thin, octagonally-bent wire within the bezel assembly) had gotten jammed too far into a groove cut into the inner perimeter of the bezel ring, such that it didn't have enough contact with the mid-case to keep the bezel on. 

Pulling that ring out and re-positioning it correctly did the trick, and I'm now told the watch looks and works good as new.

Our friend has himself a functioning watch, purchased for a modest price, plus a not-too-absurd amount of tinkering, with no parts needed from me, just a bit of discussion about how the parts are supposed to fit together. All's well that ends well, I suppose. 

Since this is the first time I've heard of someone successfully bending one of those rings back into plane, I've asked for details on the method, for future reference, in case something like this happens again.

But y'all do me a solid, please? Don't pry the bezels off the case. Just follow the goddam instructions on the goddam website.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 15202269
> 
> 
> View attachment 15202271


Are you still using your phone for these shots? Dang...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 15202269
> 
> 
> View attachment 15202271


Are you still using your phone for these shots? Dang...


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## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

The Skipjack never ceases to amaze me with how good it looks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not at all ironically, the Skipjack class of subs immediately preceded the Thresher class.

And on that note, this just happened...


----------



## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

docvail said:


> Not at all ironically, the Skipjack class of subs immediately preceded the Thresher class.
> 
> And on that note, this just happened...
> 
> ...


Well... I know what my next watch purchase is going to be.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

roscoe67 said:


> Sorry if this was answered somewhere in the 193 previous pages, but has NTH ever considered putting a GMT hand on one of their models? I am guessing the GMT movements may be a bit bigger, so maybe space is an issue (or there are other design issues), but it would be great as an option. I travel a lot, and the 24hr GMT hand is genuinely useful (the GMT bezel seems redundant on GMT-handed watch, though).


The TLR version, Doc would do it if the right movement existed. It doesn't. For whatever reason Seiko and Miyota don't offer them, supply of ETA movements is a major issue, and Doc doesn't like Sellita at all. I doubt Doc would be interested in an STP GMT if they made one, but it's moot because they don't. Zodiac's GMT models use ETAs. Then there's the "caller" vs. "flyer" GMT issue. The flyer style (GMT-Master) is generally preferred, but none of the off-the-shelf GMT movements work like that.

The market is also well covered by brands like Zelos, Chris Ward, Glycine, Steinhart, etc so I can see why Doc thinks it's not worth the hassle, not when they have no trouble moving 3-handers.


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Are you still using your phone for these shots? Dang...


Ummm, yes! And thanks.
I've only had the phone for about 2 months now and I am still getting used to the camera.
The phone is a Google Pixel 3A with a 12 MP camera. I ran these through a free/open source graphics editor called GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP).


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## roscoe67 (Apr 9, 2020)

Thanks for that summary. Interesting about ETA. It seems a lot of companies use them - supply is that much of an issue? As for Sellita - is it a question of originality?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

roscoe67 said:


> Thanks for that summary. Interesting about ETA. It seems a lot of companies use them - supply is that much of an issue? As for Sellita - is it a question of originality?


The problem is ETA is under the total control of Swatch. All of their brands have unfettered access. Everyone else....not so much. A lot of brands have responded to the issue by either using Miyota or Sellita, or to a much lesser extent STP and Soprod, or developing their own movements. With Sellita it's a question of reliability. The 9015 is far less likely to develop problems than the SW-200.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

roscoe67 said:


> Thanks for that summary. Interesting about ETA. It seems a lot of companies use them - supply is that much of an issue? As for Sellita - is it a question of originality?


Check out this read. It'll shed some light.
Watch Opinon: Swatch?s Opening Gambit: It?s Your Move, Japan. - Scottish Watches


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Not at all ironically, the Skipjack class of subs immediately preceded the Thresher class.
> 
> And on that note, this just happened...
> 
> ...


As much as I like that, the white dial Swiftsure is still in the lead. I prefer arabics unless it's a dress watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> As much as I like that, the white dial Swiftsure is still in the lead. I prefer arabics unless it's a dress watch.


Different horses for different courses, as they say.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

docvail said:


> Not at all ironically, the Skipjack class of subs immediately preceded the Thresher class.
> 
> And on that note, this just happened...
> 
> ...


Hmmmm.... I'm liking what I see in the new Thresher model. 
i think i am of the same opinion as Danielc117 re. what the next purchase could be!!


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> The problem is ETA is under the total control of Swatch. All of their brands have unfettered access. Everyone else....not so much. A lot of brands have responded to the issue by either using Miyota or Sellita, or to a much lesser extent STP and Soprod, or developing their own movements. With Sellita it's a question of reliability. The 9015 is far less likely to develop problems than the SW-200.
> 
> View attachment 15203333


Soooo we need NTH to be acquired by Swatch?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Soooo we need NTH to be acquired by Swatch?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. We. Don't.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Soooo we need NTH to be acquired by Swatch?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You take that back before we all cry to the mods and get you banned like mgp123.


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> You take that back before we all cry to the mods and get you banned like mgp123.


Ok ok, I'm sorry. Long live Miyota.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Soooo we need NTH to be acquired by Swatch?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What we need is for Miyota or Seiko to offer a commercial 4-hand movement with a bi-directional jump hour.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Soooo we need NTH to be acquired by Swatch?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not that I haven't sold out.

It's just that no one's even bothered to make an offer...


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## roscoe67 (Apr 9, 2020)

I'm OK with a 1-direction GMT hand. You really have to bounce around a lot to make the type of GMT an issue . . . and you are on the plane for hours!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

roscoe67 said:


> I'm OK with a 1-direction GMT hand. You really have to bounce around a lot to make the type of GMT an issue . . . and you are on the plane for hours!


Yeah.

I'm not doing a GMT. And it's not just because of the hand.

When there's a Japanese mechanical GMT movement, I'll make an NTH GMT.

The Swiss (movement manufacturers) can bite my a$$.


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## roscoe67 (Apr 9, 2020)

Hah - fair enough!


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

New Watch Day - My NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt arrived.. well, not today. On monday already. But I didn't post it yet, because I had a small issue with it. But it's all sorted now so I am free to remove the stickers . Without further ado..

I picked her up from Serious Watches, and I am blown away by their attention to detail. The 'unboxing experience' was as amazing, with a hand written note, a little gift of gloves and a traditional dutch snack, and even the invoice paper was super heavy and embossed. It may be small a small thing, but it makes the customer feel good and confident purchasing again from them. The watch itself was nicely wrapped with a little ribbon.












































Unfortunately, the bracelet had a big scratch over the endlink. It seemed like it was hidden behind the edge of the plastic wrapping, so it was not immediately visible. I reached out to them right away, and they immediately offered to replace the watch or bracelet. I opted to keep the watch and just replace the bracelet, and honestly I would have been OK with even just a new endlink, but since they don't remove that wasn't an option. Even though I had this issue, I can wholeheartedly recommend them. Their eye for details and their support really set them apart.

So I sent the bracelet back to them, and am now waiting on the replacement. In the meantime I put it on a bond nato, not in love with the combo, but it'll have to do for now. I snapped a few pics, went for a drink in the evening, and then had a second shock. It looked like it had gained 5 minutes over the course of the afternoon, in about 4 hours! But - looking at the timestamps of the pictures I took, I was able to confirm that I set it to the wrong time o| and that it in fact runs perfectly fine.
















So next is to add a couple of straps to the collection, and as I said before, to replace the bezel insert. I like the bezel more in the flesh (metal, rather) than I did from the renders, but I think I would prefer a less busy bezel to draw more attention to the dial. And speaking of which.. damn, if the dial isn't pretty. It is so hard to capture in pictures, but it always plays with the light. Absolute stunner of a watch, and a total home run in my book.

I also feel like there are some tiny improvements with every new NTH that I get. The bezel action improved between my first (Catalina) and my second (Barracuda). Here, I feel the grip on the crown is slightly more pronounced than on the others that I've got, but that might be totally subjective.


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> New Watch Day - My NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt arrived..


Well done for the addition Mr Schmidt. I also have the AVG which I bought from a fellow member BNIB. It had also come from Serious Watches so there was a note and I ate that waffle.....

Don't worry about a fast running auto. A $15 demagnitiser via Amazon Prime generally fixes those issues in less than 20 seconds.

I'd also recommend giving the bezel a little time too. I was also conserned thinking I preferred the quieter bezel of the Barracuda or Nacken but after a couple of wears, you see through it to the point of not noticing the markers... and the added lume is epic!

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Stroopwaffels are the tits. Had never heard of them until I went to Amsterdam.


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## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> I was gonna let this convo go without taking part in it. It's been more than 20 years since I owned or rode a motorbike, and I figured the urge had left me.
> 
> That was until last night, when a guy rode up on one of these, as my wife and I were out eating dinner in our little town...
> 
> ...


My choice, Kawasaki Vulcan 900 Cruiser


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Serious does a fantastic job with the opening experience. This is one of the reasons I like to work with retail partners. They add value which I really can't (at least not efficiently). 

Whenever those occasional arguments about pricing break out, and someone suggests having a retailer involved adds to the price (versus "cutting out the middle man"), this is one of the things I think about. Not only did we not raise our prices when we went from selling most watches direct to selling through retailers, we've been able to increase both the product quality and the quality of the overall customer experience.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a different topic, this is kind of incredible...

Someone is selling a still-unworn Commander 300 forum project watch on Facebook.

This is kind of a "unicorn", for anyone who got into watches after the C300 was all sold out. It's extremely rare to find any for sale used. Finding one that's unworn is simply unheard of.









Here's a link to the post - https://www.facebook.com/groups/JanisTradingCoFans/permalink/623034654976616/

If you're on FB, but not in the NTH Fans group (I'm not sure why you wouldn't be), his name is Jason Dedmond, if you want to just send him a DM. I don't know if he's a member here.

He's asking $525 for it, which is what he paid.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

Doc, how often do you send out your newsletter? I signed up, but haven't seen anything. I'm definitely interested in some of your upcoming releases.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> Stroopwaffels are the tits. Had never heard of them until I went to Amsterdam.


lol! I "heard" of them when United gave them as a snack on one of my return flights. Put the disk over your hot coffee cup for a minute until the inside melts a bit & then partake. Yummy!!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Soooo we need NTH to be acquired by Swatch?


Well, that probably would not be good for buyers, but hey, if it happens, I'm gonna congratulate docvail for making the (/one of) right move and cashing in while the going's good. It might at least mean a good amount of less day-to-day stress, and all other things aside, he's at least earned that.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well, that probably would not be good for buyers, but hey, if it happens, I'm gonna congratulate docvail for making the (/one of) right move and cashing in while the going's good. It might at least mean a good amount of less day-to-day stress, and all other things aside, he's at least earned that.


And he can start a new brand, or go back to an older one!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> Doc, how often do you send out your newsletter? I signed up, but haven't seen anything. I'm definitely interested in some of your upcoming releases.


We don't have a set schedule. There was an email blast earlier this week (Monday), but the only new model mentioned was the DevilRay. We haven't sent out anything about the 2K1 or other future plans yet.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

This caused a double take. "NBA 2K21" looks a lot like "NTH 2K1" at a quick glance.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

NTH GMT (un-official).

;-)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What color should we call this?










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very similar to a dark earth brown. But with some copper tone too it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The new clasp is here. Just shot out the email to get the ball rolling on a custom for the Azzuauro. Prolly rolled canvas with two toned accent stitching.

Side note Doc... I ain't mad atcha for it, but I kinda expected the clasp to come with spring bars. Maybe add that lil' note to the webpage for em? "20mm spring bars not included. Buy your own you whiney babies".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15205993
> 
> 
> The new clasp is here. Just shot out the email to get the ball rolling on a custom for the Azzuauro. Prolly rolled canvas with two toned accent stitching.
> ...


It's a *replacement* clasp.

The clasp it replaces was held onto the bracelet with - wait for it - spring bars.

Use those.

Before anyone objects - let's say I sent it out with 1.8mm thick 20mm spring-bars, and they're too thick. What do you do? You buy your own.

Let's say I send them out with 1.6mm, and they're too thin. What do you do? You buy your own.

Why assume the clasp comes with anything that isn't pictured on the page where you buy it, or included in the description?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Why assume the clasp comes with anything that isn't pictured on the page where you buy it, or included in the description?


Because people are dumb Doc. You and I(and others here) know this to be true.

I'll betcha a fiver someone emails to complain. Spring bars I got. Ain't upset about a thing.

Plus, I didn't buy it as a replacement, I bought it as an alternate. So there. In your face Yankee Boy!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Blue.

Looks nice. 
Whiskey Cask?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Because people are dumb Doc. You and I(and others here) know this to be true.
> 
> I'll betcha a fiver someone emails to complain. Spring bars I got. Ain't upset about a thing.
> 
> Plus, I didn't buy it as a replacement, I bought it as an alternate. So there. In your face Yankee Boy!


Perhaps.

I've always been surprised whenever a strap I've bought comes with spring bars. They never get used, just tossed into a drawer in my office.

Every time, I think, "Why? Why include spring bars? The watch came with them. I still have them. Now I have to find a place to put these things, where I won't lose them or forget where I put them, in case I end up needing them. This sucks. I just wanted a strap, not a chore and needless anxiety. F**k you, strap seller. I didn't ask for this!"


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

goyoneuff said:


> NTH GMT (un-official).
> 
> ;-)


I was looking at a watch I was wearing today. It has a phony GMT hand. I bought it over ten years ago when I was a total noob and didn't realize it was decorative. What's up with that? I still think the watch looks cool but really, why have a third hand not independently adjustable? Is that even a thing?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ike2 said:


> I was looking at a watch I was wearing today. It has a phony GMT hand. I bought it over ten years ago when I was a total noob and didn't realize it was decorative. What's up with that? I still think the watch looks cool but really, why have a third hand not independently adjustable? Is that even a thing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When Camilo speaks, it's best to just listen. And then think. And if you don't understand, remind yourself that Camilo speaks in riddles.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

hwa said:


> When Camilo speaks, it's best to just listen. And then think. And if you don't understand, remind yourself that Camilo speaks in riddles.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So do you my friend. What in blazes are you on about?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm gonna go with .... "wood"










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

So, ck2k01, any thoughts on the XL Subs basically being named after you?

They'll probably be a hit. But seeing your shared name still makes me think of Michael Bolton from Office Space.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> "Why? Why include spring bars?"


I've lost spring bars. I've broken spring bars.

Once I couldn't get a bracelet off myself and took it to my local guy. He ended up having to break the spring bars to get it off.

So: I'm always happy when a new strap comes with spring bars.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brushed copper?


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?


Mahogany


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rusty..........


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Antjrice said:


> Don't worry about a fast running auto. A $15 demagnitiser via Amazon Prime generally fixes those issues in less than 20 seconds.


Ah, no that was my fault all along. I set the watch wrong by 5 minutes ahead, just before I took the wrist shot in my post. So by comparing the time the watch shows on the pic and the timestamp when the pic was taken I was able to confirm that I am a bit dense. I since tracked the accuracy while wearing it with that yellow app that I can't remember the name of, and can report a real life accuracy of -1.5 per day average over the past 5 days, which is phenomenal.



docvail said:


> What color should we call this?


Whatever it's called, I really dig this one. The blue Tropic you teased before is slick, but this gorgeous. Amber-Ombre perhaps.. Ambre? I had the one of the Tropics on my radar a few years ago, but never pulled the trigger. Unfortunately, the new sub will be too large for me. Not that I could not pull it off, mind you, but I really prefer them small and slender.



Ike2 said:


> I was looking at a watch I was wearing today. It has a phony GMT hand. I bought it over ten years ago when I was a total noob and didn't realize it was decorative. What's up with that? I still think the watch looks cool but really, why have a third hand not independently adjustable? Is that even a thing?


phoney, like no function, just sitting there doing nothing?


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## roscoe67 (Apr 9, 2020)

What do you mean decorative? It just sits there?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> So, ck2k01, any thoughts on the XL Subs basically being named after you?
> 
> They'll probably be a hit. But seeing your shared name still makes me think of Michael Bolton from Office Space.
> 
> View attachment 15206573


Funny that Office Space got brought up. Last week the shipping guy at my company and I were chatting. He was saying he's basically Milton. Shoved in a corner and forgotten about.

So this Monday I gifted him a red Swingline.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Burnt orange fumé


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What do they call it in the catalog?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> I've always been surprised whenever a strap I've bought comes with spring bars. They never get used, just tossed into a drawer in my office.
> 
> Every time, I think, "Why? Why include spring bars? The watch came with them. I still have them. Now I have to find a place to put these things, where I won't lose them or forget where I put them, in case I end up needing them. This sucks. I just wanted a strap, not a chore and needless anxiety. F**k you, strap seller. I didn't ask for this!"


Nobody ever cussed a strap seller for including spring bars. Not once. Never.

Time to quit drinkin', doc

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

yankeexpress said:


> Mahogany


Ron Burgundy's apartment


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> I was looking at a watch I was wearing today. It has a phony GMT hand. I bought it over ten years ago when I was a total noob and didn't realize it was decorative. What's up with that? I still think the watch looks cool but really, why have a third hand not independently adjustable? Is that even a thing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why do you assume it's not independently adjustable?

To @hwa's point, he meant if @goyoneuff claims it to be a GMT, then it has a GMT movement in it.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

roscoe67 said:


> What do you mean decorative? It just sits there?


It travels around but can't be set with the crown. 















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mojave

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Jtragic said:


> Why do you assume it's not independently adjustable?
> 
> To @hwa's point, he meant if @goyoneuff claims it to be a GMT, then it has a GMT movement in it.


Well I think I solved the mystery of my watch with some research. Although this JDM watch is sometimes referred to as a "Sports GMT" that is a misnomer. It does not have a GMT hand but rather the 4th hand is a compass feature. Supposedly if you lay the watch flat and point that hand at the sun you will have your bearing (assuming you are above the equator). This makes me feel much better! I will try it out this weekend.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> So do you my friend. What in blazes are you on about?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Notwithstanding the explanation from Jtragic, goyoneuff is Camilo, that much I know.

Taking Jtragic's explanation into account, the hunch seems to be that HWA may have read something in your comment which seemed to suggest Camilo was BS'ing in some way.

I didn't read that in your comment, but here's some context which may help explain - there was an "incident" some time back, started by Camilo posting some pics of watches he modded, in very unusual ways, along with some cryptic comments, in the public forum, where he isn't very well known (not that he'd be well known anywhere outside the BSHT series of threads). Some of the replies in that thread, from public forum "regulars" (I think), suggested they didn't believe him with regards to the mods (I think one was an NTH case with an IWC or JLC movement/dial/hands in it, and the other was the opposite, our movement/dial/hands in a JLC or IWC case - like I said, very unusual).

HWA and others from the BSHT threads chimed in to back Camilo up, who was in fact, telling the truth about his bizarre mods.

Most of us would probably agree that calling BS on anyone's post is rude, unless the claims are simply preposterous. HWA might be seen as someone quick to point out when another forum member has been rude by doing something like that, especially if the rudeness was directed at a friend.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> What do they call it in the catalog?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> It travels around but can't be set with the crown.
> View attachment 15207449
> 
> View attachment 15207453
> ...


Have you tried adjusting it with the crown in date-setting position, but turning it the opposite way (opposite from the way you'd turn it to set the date)?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?


Hipster Church YouTube Video Background.

It's a bit unwieldy, I know.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Notwithstanding the explanation from Jtragic, goyoneuff is Camilo, that much I know.
> 
> Taking Jtragic's explanation into account, the hunch seems to be that HWA may have read something in your comment which seemed to suggest Camilo was BS'ing in some way.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc. I get it now. Man there are layers upon layers in this little group. I wasn't suggesting there was anything phony about Camilo's mod but now see how it could be read that way - didn't mean any offense. I may make smartass remarks from time to time but always in good humor not passive aggressive BS. I just saw the GMT hand in that photo and it prompted me to post my comment about a watch I was wearing at the time. I think Camilo's mod looks awesome.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Have you tried adjusting it with the crown in date-setting position, but turning it the opposite way (opposite from the way you'd turn it to set the date)?


Yup. Tried that to no avail. My lazy research to date had simply revealed specs listed by private sellers like "24 hr GMT hand - not adjustable". Hence my "WTH" reaction. And I don't read Japanese. . But my other post this morning explains the real deal.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ike2 said:


> Yup. Tried that to no avail. My lazy research to date had simply revealed specs listed by private sellers like "24 hr GMT hand - not adjustable". Hence my "WTH" reaction. And I don't read Japanese. . But my other post this morning explains the real deal.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In the FWIW department, and it's not W much, there ARE watches (including the original Rolex) that had the 24 hour hand tied to the hour hand and NOT independently settable. There are a few Vostoks still made that way. In their defense, they do have a bezel that can be adjusted to display the "GMT" time. Much like Doc's 12 hour bezel versions. But I agree that yours is intended to be a compass...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Ike2 said:


> It travels around but can't be set with the crown.
> View attachment 15207449
> 
> View attachment 15207453


Does the internal chapter ring/bezel with the compass and 24 hr scale -- can that be turned or adjusted...? Meaning, can you set N at, say, 3, by the date window?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Simple vailbrown similar too









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Does the internal chapter ring/bezel with the compass and 24 hr scale -- can that be turned or adjusted...? Meaning, can you set N at, say, 3, by the date window?


Nope. That would be cool though. I still think it is a sharp and unique looking watch. The dark red changes a lot in different lighting and can be iridescent. I think I paid around $250 for it in 2009 and still glad I bought it, even though it has taken me 12 years to figure out how it works. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?


Tobacco burst. At least that's what Fender calls it on guitars.


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, you've already got that beads of poop bracelet going... I'm going with MOP.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wimads said:


> Well, you've already got that beads of poop bracelet going... I'm going with MOP.


Well... if y'alls want to really stick with the theme... "Skidmark brown"..


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Coffee.

Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Wimads said:


> Well, you've already got that beads of poop bracelet going... I'm going with MOP.


This gets my vote.

...which is why serious stuff should never be left up for popular vote, ref. Boaty McBoatface.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Notwithstanding the explanation from Jtragic, goyoneuff is Camilo, that much I know.
> 
> Taking Jtragic's explanation into account, the hunch seems to be that HWA may have read something in your comment which seemed to suggest Camilo was BS'ing in some way.
> 
> ...


I was just goofing on Cam for turning obscurity into an art form!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

larand said:


> Coffee.
> 
> Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


That was going to be my other choice, but something more specific, like Caramel Mocha Latte. I think "coffee" usually means _very_ dark brown.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

zebrawood


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brown?


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## ocoee (Oct 4, 2018)

docvail said:


> What color should we call this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Burnt umber?

Umber reminds me of hombre which would also be a cool name.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

ocoee said:


> Burnt umber?
> 
> Umber reminds me of hombre which would also be a cool name.


Burnt hombre it is then.......

......that or dark beige velour.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Teak. Or Burnt Teak.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Teak. Or Burnt Teak.


Nice. I was thinking Rootbeer Stain

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> Burnt hombre it is then.......
> 
> ......that or dark beige velour.


How about .... Burnt Embers

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a thing...

Earlier today I saw a post in one of the groups I'm in on Facebook. The guy is a customer of mine, but he's posting wrist-shots of a watch he just received from another brand, and he's got some complaints about it.

At least one of the complaints was pretty specific, but would also seem easy to rectify. The watch somehow arrived with an issue that shouldn't have slipped through QC. The issue could be sorted out quickly by the customer, with no support from the brand, but obviously, that sort of thing doesn't help the overall opening experience, and can easily lead someone to wondering what else may have slipped through QC, but isn't yet obvious.

The bigger issue is that he feels the watch is sort of "meh", and overpriced for what it is. I've seen enough guys making "meh/overpriced" comments to know it happens, and so I don't really pay much attention to those comments any more, nor do I try to figure out why the people making them feel that way, or if they're being realistic or not with their expectations.

But, like I said, he's posting wrist-shots, which means despite being disappointed with the watch as soon as he opened it (because of the glaring issue missed in QC), he decided he liked it enough to unwrap it, size it, and start wearing it. He probably can't return it for a refund at this point, and it appears he's suffering buyer's remorse, because the watch is meh, and he paid way too much for meh. 

It would seem to be a scenario that was fairly avoidable, given that he knew the watch was about 20%-30% above the market when he bought it, and was disappointed as soon as he opened it. My first instinct is to wonder why he didn't send it back right away, but I've come to realize that no matter how logical that may sound, the fact is a lot of guys don't stop to think about it. Instead, they just unwrap and size the watch, and start wearing it, before they realize they're not even happy with it.

So, my question is...is this something that happens less as you spend more time collecting? I can recall stories from guys saying that some watch grew on them, after being initially unimpressed with it, but I can't help thinking that the more common occurrence is guys flipping the watch very soon after delivery, likely for a loss. 

What advice can be given to guys who are newer in the hobby, to help avoid this sort of situation?


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> Earlier today I saw a post in one of the groups I'm in on Facebook. The guy is a customer of mine, but he's posting wrist-shots of a watch he just received from another brand, and he's got some complaints about it.
> 
> ...


There is always that thrill of the package arriving, yes I've got my next hit of horological goodness, who cares whether it's all aligned or scratched to [email protected] i just wanna open it and get it on baby! Yeah, been there soooo many times and then regretted it. Now I don't bother checking the tracking, unless it's been stupidly long, and when it arrives I'll not rush to open it. Even when I do open it I'll make sure I've got clear time, with no potential interruptions, to carefully unpack and check the watch over. I'll probably put it all back after that and go through that again another day. Sometimes I've done that for a week. That way I give myself time to make sure it's all OK, from a "send it back" sort of issues perspective and from a do I love it as much as I did when I ordered it. Still doesn't always work as I've had watches on a repeat buy and it's only become clear after a week of wearing why I'd flipped it in the first place. But that's just me being dumb......


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## MartinVang (Apr 7, 2015)

I agree


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> Earlier today I saw a post in one of the groups I'm in on Facebook. The guy is a customer of mine, but he's posting wrist-shots of a watch he just received from another brand, and he's got some complaints about it.
> 
> ...


Ask them if they've tried to return used prophylactics... 

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> What advice can be given to guys who are newer in the hobby, to help avoid this sort of situation?


I'm not completely sure there's any perfect advice that can be given in this scenario. In my own experience, I had to buy and try stuff to figure out what I really DID like. I must have flipped 30-40 watches in the last few years. When I look back at the photos I saved, many were actually very nice. But a few of them make me wonder what in the he11 I was thinking when I bought them. Now, I have pretty rigid standards for size, thickness, and specs that I never disregard. Experience taught me the hard way that watches that fell outside those numbers just weren't for me.

So, maybe the best advice would be: try stuff. Buy used. Your "try before you buy" thing might be the ticket...


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> So, my question is...is this something that happens less as you spend more time collecting? I can recall stories from guys saying that some watch grew on them, after being initially unimpressed with it, but I can't help thinking that the more common occurrence is guys flipping the watch very soon after delivery, likely for a loss.
> 
> What advice can be given to guys who are newer in the hobby, to help avoid this sort of situation?


re opening the wrapping before inspecting everything is up to snuff:

Yea, I was like that in the early days. I mean, for me I don't often buy stuff that fall into a similar category as watches online. Which is 1. higher price (relatively speaking that is) 2. condition is important (think jewellery for example would be a similar category, something I *never* bought online) and 3. something that elicits an emotional response rather than addressing a specific need (what do I care if my 50 quid shaver off Amazon has less than perfect finishing as long as it cuts through the weeds). So when a new watch arrived, I didn't have a 'checklist' to go through, of things to look out for out of lack of experience.

Case in point my recent experience with my AVG. A year ago I would have torn the wrapping off it right away. And would have been stuck with a bracelet with noticeable blemish. What in the end made me come up with my own 'checklist' that I go through before commiting and peeling off the protective stickers was the blog post on the main NTH page about your QC procedure. Knowing what the brand (any brand, not just NTH) deems acceptable and what not gives the customer a good watermark, and also educates what thing there are to check at all. I would never have checked that the hour and minute hands align at noon / midnight. That was pretty much a given for me until you wrote that this is something that you check. In hindsight it makes perfect sense since they are installed by humans, of course, but it just never occurred to me.

re making sure that you love a watch before you get it:

I think that really can only come with time and trying out watches. After all, good marketing is literally designed to make you want to buy more crap, whether you want and or need it or not. Plus, there is the added pressure of endless _limited edition of whatever number_ and _get it on kickstarter for some crazy discount_. And before you know it you but something that is just meh, because of FOMO. So having some experience handling, owning some watches is the only cure in my opinion. By now, I have pretty strict guides on proportion, thickness especially and material (ceramic bezel inserts? yawn.. doesn't do it for me anymore) before I commit to something.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 15210587


your pics are amazing. Thank you for sharing them


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> So, my question is...is this something that happens less as you spend more time collecting? I can recall stories from guys saying that some watch grew on them, after being initially unimpressed with it, but I can't help thinking that the more common occurrence is guys flipping the watch very soon after delivery, likely for a loss.
> 
> What advice can be given to guys who are newer in the hobby, to help avoid this sort of situation?


There are definitely mistakes I won't make anymore. My Citizen Attesa chrono was simply too big for me, with something like a 43 or 44mm dial, and 50mm+ L2L with an integrated bracelet. I didn't know anything about correct sizing for the size of your wrist at the time, I just thought it looked cool, and my existing Citizen fit well enough so I assumed it would too. The Lum-tec M74 I bought because I had just discovered Panerai, and I wanted something that looked like their watches. I hadn't yet realized that I find most dials with painted markers to be dull.

I've sold the majority of watches that I've owned, but usually after several months when I either find something I like better, or something about the design that I dislike sours me on them. The three notable exceptions to that I can think of off of the top of my head are my Visitor VPO, Direnzo Drz_02, and Zodiac ZO9209. In the case of the VPO, the sandwich was MUCH more shallow IRL than what it appeared to be like in pictures, and I didn't love that the officer caseback could trap water. It just took a bit of time on the wrist for me to discover those things, and of course that meant it wasn't returnable.

The Direnzo and Zodiac issues were more subjective - mainly I didn't love the way they reacted to certain lighting conditions. The Drz_02's dial seems strangely dark when lit directly, to the point that I actually asked Sergio if he used some kind of tinted crystal. The difference was that noticeable vs. my other watches. The finish on the hands on that watch also makes them turn white when the lighting is head on. The Zodiac I thought had a really cool dark gray sunburst dial....that you never see because the AR coating on its crystal isn't very effective, and it mostly looks dull black unless the lighting is just right. In hindsight I probably should've kept them in plastic and spent a fair amount of time looking at them in different light to see whether or not I _really_ liked them enough to want to keep them long term, but the desire to put that brand new watch on wrist and wear it is _incredibly_ strong.

It's just hard for me to be absolutely sure without wearing a watch for at least a few days, and in the case of the Zodiac, I didn't really know if it was the plastic wrap making the dial look dull, or if that's just how the dial looked. This hobby is definitely going to include a fair amount of trial and error. You just hope to reduce the amount of error as you go.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Been thinking about this situation most of the day, as it got lodged in the back of my mind. I have a follow-up question...

Is sounds like we've all experienced some form of buyer's remorse. In some cases, the remorse wasn't avoidable. It was just a result of the process we go through as collectors, learning what we really like, what fits us best, etc.

But, I've seen enough examples to know that some of the remorse stems from the gap between what marketing / advertising gets us to think we're buying, and what we come to find we actually bought. 

I'm going to go ahead and assume that if you bought a watch, then later you realized it was an over-hyped, cheaply made POS, you're done buying from that brand. If not, then you're one of those few poor souls too stupid to be helped. 

But let's say that the watch in question isn't really "bad", in terms of it's quality. Let's say that the watch just looked WAY better in photos than it does in real life. Do you ever hold that against the brand, or does it change your buying behavior in any way?

With this guy's post today, he's clearly no great photographer, so he's not doing any brand any favors with the pics he posts. It's hard for me to look at the pics he's posted of his NTH watches and objectively judge if the watches look like crap in those pics just because his pics are crap. I can't tell, because I know they're not, so it's a blind spot for me. But his pic of this other watch definitely made it look like crap to me, whereas they look good in the brand's pics, which were professionally done.

I guess I'm wondering how many watches are decent, but just look better in the online pics, versus how many watches are actually crap, but looked a lot better in online pics, and whether people end up holding a grudge against the brand when stuff like that happens.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I don't hold it against the brand if something I buy doesn't meet my "in real life" expectations. Photos vs. the real deal is the same for pretty much everything(everything produced in quantity might be better). I don't expect my Big Mac to look like the photo on the menu, but it's the same product. 

It's different for watches, sure. We all expect a quality product for our money. But photos companies post of their pieces are staged. Perfect lighting, filters, maybe even some photoshop thrown in the mix. They're trying to sell us. And I don't fault then for it.

It's always a risk we take on things like pre-orders, especially if you're brave enough to order purely on a CG render. If it's at all possible I look for some "decent" real life, on the wrist shots online of what I'm considering buying. 

Then there's the people who don't read the spec sheet and cry when it's too big/small. Too thick. Crystal is flat not domed. Sweep isn't as smooth as their other one because it's a lower beat movement... All the things practiced buyers of watches look for before the purchase.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Been thinking about this situation most of the day, as it got lodged in the back of my mind. I have a follow-up question...
> 
> But let's say that the watch in question isn't really "bad", in terms of it's quality. Let's say that the watch just looked WAY better in photos than it does in real life. Do you ever hold that against the brand, or does it change your buying behavior in any way?
> 
> I guess I'm wondering how many watches are decent, but just look better in the online pics, versus how many watches are actually crap, but looked a lot better in online pics, and whether people end up holding a grudge against the brand when stuff like that happens.


I went back and looked at the photos I had of all the stuff I've flipped. Some weren't really the watch per se, but stuff like the bracelet. I had a Seiko SARG that might have been one of the nicest watches I've owned, but I never liked the bracelet. Some others, like the Sinn 556, just didn't seem (to me) to be worth the price and in my case, I found that the external AR scratched easily. I had a couple of your competitors, but they were thicker or "rougher" than I expected.

But the best example I can remember is one of yours, and so makes a good example, I think. The photos of the red-faced Orthos captivated me. So I bought one. Turns out, it was bigger than I eventually grew to prefer. Nothing wrong with it, but I didn't wear it much when I found smaller watches. I even tried putting the green dial on it, which also looked beautiful in photos, but it didn't get any smaller. To your point, the "smaller" watches I found were yours. So, no, I didn't hold it against you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I don't hold it against the brand if something I buy doesn't meet my "in real life" expectations. Photos vs. the real deal is the same for pretty much everything(everything produced in quantity might be better). I don't expect my Big Mac to look like the photo on the menu, but it's the same product.
> 
> It's different for watches, sure. We all expect a quality product for our money. But photos companies post of their pieces are staged. Perfect lighting, filters, maybe even some photoshop thrown in the mix. They're trying to sell us. And I don't fault then for it.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I'm an outlier. Maybe I react more negatively than most when I think advertising is misleading. It's probably why I'm always hammering Rusty to get the most accurate depiction of the product, as opposed to simply the most flattering depiction. It may also be leading me to mistakenly think others would be more likely to hold too-flattering images against the brand.

The not reading the specs thing seems like it's kind of a non-issue. Hard to blame the brand if you don't read the specs. A bigger concern for me, based only on my own experience, is people expecting better or more than what's in the specs, based solely on price or reputation, or something they read online.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

No hard and fast policy here. But there is one popular micro that I was excited to try. It was meh at first sight. Instantly knew it was going back. No problems. Just seemed blah in person. Could see how good photography made it look great. Ever since, I’ve applied a mental correction factor to their professional photos. Haven’t been tempted enough to try them again. 

There was also a little piece of their brand story that I discovered through that purchase to be, in my opinion, a bit of a reach. A slight liberty taken that I didn’t think added to the brand’s appeal. So why bother taking it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

I can think of a couple of times where the photos made the watch look of higher quality than it was, with the "flaws" purposely not captured in photos (e.g. really rough metal on anything not exposed, such as where the bracket attaches, or ill fitting/large gaps btw the end links and lugs) or not described in the specs (e.g.hollow, junk bracelets, weak lume). But these instances, in retrospect, seem like they were intentional omissions. So I guess it's more "was I intentionally deceived" vs "did I buy the hype/marketing." Being deceived would swear me off a brand.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> Been thinking about this situation most of the day, as it got lodged in the back of my mind. I have a follow-up question...
> 
> Is sounds like we've all experienced some form of buyer's remorse. In some cases, the remorse wasn't avoidable. It was just a result of the process we go through as collectors, learning what we really like, what fits us best, etc.
> 
> ...


In my case, it was a case of the watch being decent but looked way better on-line. The watch was the Magrette Moana Pro, which was reviewed by a member here DEMO ####, who takes absolutely stunning pictures of watches. The way the watch was packed caused the rubber strap to be distorted, so it wouldn't sit right on my wrist. Also, if I remember correctly, there was something funky about the clasp that didn't help with how the watch felt on the wrist. Besides the fit, the watch really wasn't impressive at all, especially since it wasn't inexpensive and came only on a strap.

Luckily, this was a limited edition version and was sold out when a member asked if anyone wanted to sell theirs. I jumped at the chance to sell the watch for what I paid for it and the buyer was happy to get the watch for a groomsman present. The lesson here was don't be fooled by pretty pictures and yes, I am forever put off the Magrette brand.


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> Been thinking about this situation most of the day, as it got lodged in the back of my mind. I have a follow-up question...
> 
> Is sounds like we've all experienced some form of buyer's remorse. In some cases, the remorse wasn't avoidable. It was just a result of the process we go through as collectors, learning what we really like, what fits us best, etc.
> 
> ...


In my case, it was the watch being decent but looked way better on-line. The watch was the Magrette Moana Pro, which was reviewed by a member here DEMO ####, who takes absolutely stunning pictures of watches. The way the watch was packed caused the rubber strap to be distorted, so it wouldn't sit right on my wrist. Also, if I remember correctly, there was something funky about the clasp that didn't help with how the watch felt on the wrist. Besides the fit, the watch really wasn't impressive at all, especially since it wasn't inexpensive and came only on a strap.

Luckily, this was a limited edition version and was sold out when a member asked if anyone wanted to sell theirs. I jumped at the chance to sell the watch for what I paid for it and the buyer was happy to get the watch for a groomsman present. The lesson here was don't be fooled by pretty pictures and yes, I am forever put off the Magrette brand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I went back and looked at the photos I had of all the stuff I've flipped. Some weren't really the watch per se, but stuff like the bracelet. I had a Seiko SARG that might have been one of the nicest watches I've owned, but I never liked the bracelet. Some others, like the Sinn 556, just didn't seem (to me) to be worth the price and in my case, I found that the external AR scratched easily. I had a couple of your competitors, but they were thicker or "rougher" than I expected.
> 
> But the best example I can remember is one of yours, and so makes a good example, I think. The photos of the red-faced Orthos captivated me. So I bought one. Turns out, it was bigger than I eventually grew to prefer. Nothing wrong with it, but I didn't wear it much when I found smaller watches. I even tried putting the green dial on it, which also looked beautiful in photos, but it didn't get any smaller. To your point, the "smaller" watches I found were yours. So, no, I didn't hold it against you.


Well, thanks?

The post to which you were responding was trying to get to the quality issue, though, rather than our individual preferences. You decided you didn't like the Orthos because it was too big. If you decided its quality wasn't as good as it looked in pics, that would seem like a different issue.

FWIW - I still own one Orthos, only because one of my sons wants it. I also own a Cerberus, and a Spectre II. They're all a bit too big for me now, for what they are, but I like wearing them all once in a while. I've been wearing my DevilRay more the last week or two, after deciding not to sell it. It's still a bit of a beast compared to the Subs, but I still like it.

On what may be a related note, my recent bugaboo is seeing otherwise nice-looking watches ruined by one little thing, like a bargain-bin clasp, a crap bracelet, blah hands, crap finishing, and any number of other little niggles that most normal people wouldn't notice.

What strikes me in this discussion is the disparity between what I'm hearing and what seems like it would be a big problem for brands. It seems like most people in this discussion are pretty ready to forgive a brand for selling them a disappointing watch, whereas the discussion about watches would generally seem to suggest that most enthusiasts swear off a brand when they're disappointed in a watch from that brand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> In my case, it was a case of the watch being decent but looked way better on-line. The watch was the Magrette Moana Pro, which was reviewed by a member here DEMO ####, who takes absolutely stunning pictures of watches. The way the watch was packed caused the rubber strap to be distorted, so it wouldn't sit right on my wrist. Also, if I remember correctly, there was something funky about the clasp that didn't help with how the watch felt on the wrist. Besides the fit, the watch really wasn't impressive at all, especially since it wasn't inexpensive and came only on a strap.
> 
> Luckily, this was a limited edition version and was sold out when a member asked if anyone wanted to sell theirs. I jumped at the chance to sell the watch for what I paid for it and the buyer was happy to get the watch for a groomsman present. The lesson here was don't be fooled by pretty pictures and yes, I am forever put off the Magrette brand.


That's interesting, inasmuch as the Magrettes I've seen and held always seemed well made, and I really like their style, but for their size.

But, your view conforms more to what I've always thought was the common stance among enthusiasts - once burned, twice shy. It's one of the more frustrating aspects of owning a brand. We can ship 1,000 flawless watches, but if one guy has a reason to complain, legitimate or not, he'll often swear off the brand, and probably won't hesitate to share his experience with others.

Your specific experience with that one watch is exactly what I fear when it comes to overly flattering photography. Rightly or wrongly, I'd rather people say the watch is better in real life, than say it looked better in online images.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hornet99 said:


> Burnt hombre it is then.......
> 
> ......that or dark beige velour.


Toasty Hombre.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> ... he's posting wrist-shots, which means despite being disappointed with the watch as soon as he opened it (because of the glaring issue missed in QC), he decided he liked it enough to unwrap it, size it, and start wearing it. He probably can't return it for a refund at this point, and it appears he's suffering buyer's remorse, because the watch is meh, and he paid way too much for meh.
> 
> ... My first instinct is to wonder why he didn't send it back right away, but I've come to realize that no matter how logical that may sound, the fact is a lot of guys don't stop to think about it. Instead, they just unwrap and size the watch, and start wearing it, before they realize they're not even happy with it.
> 
> ...


So, this imo (and in my personal experience) is very common. When you (self-projecting here, fwiw) open a new watch, yes, sometimes the first glance leads to a distinct "meh" feeling. Paired with that, is a strong impulse to nevertheless unwrap it, size it, wear it, and kinda try and see if maybe it is "better on wrist", that maybe it would end up working out somehow. Maybe its some variation of the "sunken cost fallacy", where you dont want to admit to yourself that the shiny new toy is a dud. Especially if its based on something aesthetics-based or preference-based, not an outright QC issue.

And yes, it usually leads to flipping at a loss later on. Very rarely, an initially less-than-impressive watch does work out for at least a medium-term. But without having gone through many tens of watches, its extremely hard to predict what issues will be livable-with, and what issues will be constant dealbreakers. After many trips on this rollercoaster, it becomes easier to see the shared issues, the shared parts, the similarities between past and future watches.

As for how a new watch enthusiast should approach all this... Sigh. Honestly, the safest approach is to buy used to test these things out; if something really works, then one can sell on the "test model" and get a fresh one for keeping. Also, if at all possible, asking around for opinion/feedback from the people who had that watch and sold it on.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> But let's say that the watch in question isn't really "bad", in terms of it's quality. Let's say that the watch just looked WAY better in photos than it does in real life. Do you ever hold that against the brand, or does it change your buying behavior in any way?


I wouldnt hold it "against" the brand, however.. yes, I would extrapolate that particular experience to the brands watches in general. And yes, it probably would affect my buying behaviour, if I knew that model A looked way different (/worse) irl than in photos, then of course I would assume models B, C and D will be the same. At the very least, scrutiny level would go waaaay up.


> With this guy's post today, he's clearly no great photographer, so he's not doing any brand any favors with the pics he posts. It's hard for me to look at the pics he's posted of his NTH watches and objectively judge if the watches look like crap in those pics just because his pics are crap. I can't tell, because I know they're not, so it's a blind spot for me. But his pic of this other watch definitely made it look like crap to me, whereas they look good in the brand's pics, which were professionally done.


And heres the interesting thing, sometimes people just take and post ...... photos. It happens. After a while, you notice that too, and learn not to judge a watch based on a ...... photo taken with a potato-phone (and Ive taken plenty such shots meself).

Somewhere, there is a sweet spot between 1) a f----ed up wristshot where half the pic shows the wearer's crotch hovering above a toilet and the other half is blurry and compressed to hell and back; and 2) a "professional" brand photo with ideal lighting and reflections, a polarizing filter used to remove crystal glare/reflections, spotlights to shine up the dial finish, etc. etc. etc. to a point where the watch literally cannot possibly look as good when seen with the human eye in a normal environment.

Maybe that sweet spot is other user photos, maybe that sweet spot is youtube videos (since they tend to have minimal "effects/photo" processing).


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> ............But let's say that the watch in question isn't really "bad", in terms of it's quality. Let's say that the watch just looked WAY better in photos than it does in real life. Do you ever hold that against the brand, or does it change your buying behavior in any way?
> 
> I guess I'm wondering how many watches are decent, but just look better in the online pics, versus how many watches are actually crap, but looked a lot better in online pics, and whether people end up holding a grudge against the brand when stuff like that happens.


Online pics can be very deceiving, take Steinhart and their dials. A lot of their photos make the dials look black, a nice deep black, but I reality the dials are grey and look awful. OVM v2 is a great example of that. There's another brand, Tiger Concept, and there's quite a following of these on here and people seem to love 'em and based on that and everyone's comments about how good they are I ordered one, I was shocked at how much I disliked it; OK it was cheap, but even a comparably priced Parnis felt better quality. Would never buy one again and would actively recommend against people buying one as well. It also changed my behaviour in that I realised that I'm not prepared to put up with poor quality in anyway, so need to be buying at the upper end of the affordable range to be happy (generally......).

Was hesitant about adding this, being directed at NTH, but think it's worthwhile. The NTH subs are great, I love 'em and have owned a fair number and if anyone is looking for something like that I'd not hesitate to recommend them. However, I've not kept any and wouldn't buy another for very specific reasons* but the curious thing is that seeing photos of them, especially good ones, makes me start thinking "Hmmmmm, maybe I should get on......" despite having been through it. OK, so after having owned so many I stop myself, but still it's the behaviour that's interesting.......

* - these are all things related to features of the design that I don't like and added up are enough to detract from the good points.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm going to go ahead and assume that if you bought a watch, then later you realized it was an over-hyped, cheaply made POS, you're done buying from that brand. If not, then you're one of those few poor souls too stupid to be helped.
> 
> But let's say that the watch in question isn't really "bad", in terms of it's quality. Let's say that the watch just looked WAY better in photos than it does in real life. Do you ever hold that against the brand, or does it change your buying behavior in any way?


I don't think I've really bought any watches that turned out to be over-hyped POSes. The SKX in stock form I think is over-hyped, and its crown action is _terrible_. I've also spent a silly amount of money modding mine, and I'm generally a Seiko fan, so that definitely hasn't put me off them at all. I don't care about the misaligned chapter rings and other Seiko foibles, because I'm probably going to be swapping out the chapter ring anyway. I will say that the one thing that does bug me about Seiko is that I think their pricing has gotten out of control. The SLA037 is a very pretty watch, but it costs as much as a new Omega Seamaster. People are still asking basically new MSRP for its SLA017 predecessor though, so I guess it has that going for it. The market clearly decided that the SLA017 was worth the $4500 that Seiko asked for it.

The two Evant watches I owned both looked better in pictures than IRL. In the case of the Tropic, I didn't realize from the photos just how _much_ its case looks like a tuna can. Also, the way Evant makes their fume dials causes them to sort of bleach out a bit under direct light. Because the Tropic did that, I assumed the Decodiver would too, and wasn't surprised when it did. I liked that watch anyway though....until its chin wart of a crown just got to be too much. You can't really tell in photos just how much that thing sticks out. If it had a recessed crown instead like Squale's cases, I'd probably still have it. I don't hold that against Evant at all though. I thought the Decodiver was well made and a good value, and if they come up with another model that I think is interesting, I would definitely consider buying it. The Tropic I sold for MSRP, the Decodiver I took a bit of a hit on, but losing $100 or so from buying new to selling used isn't exactly a tragedy, at least not in my mind.

Losing $560 buying a new Citizen Eco-drive to selling it used, that was a tragedy. That hurt, and it has kind of put me off Citizen as a whole. I won't buy their quartz watches because they are quartz, but even their automatics, I'd REALLY have to like it in order to even consider it.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I've thought about the "would good photos make me buy a crappy watch" issue some more, and I can completely understand how anyone could be drawn in. My best example of this might be Kickstarter. No known product, only photos. I must have lucked out in the past, as most of my purchases at least looked like their photos. But I've learned here on WUS, be vary careful about trusting unknown sellers. Buy the seller. And for that reason, just a set of really good photos isn't enough reason to try a watch. I look for reviews, threads on WUS, etc...

As to the lure of getting a new watch on my wrist, it is VERY strong. I don't think I'm capable of doing a thorough examination before one gets unwrapped and worn. Only cursory. But along those lines, I recently bought an Alpina (great on-line photos AND good reviews), started wearing it, and after about 2-3 months it started malfunctioning. It worked fine at first, so even if I had done a complete testing and examination on the day of delivery, I don't think it would have helped. It went back for warranty repair, and now it's been on the dark side of the moon in quarantine for 3 months. So even with reasonably good due diligence, stuff happens


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

MartinVang said:


> I agree


With everything?


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> With everything?


Maybe.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Coffee time...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> So, this imo (and in my personal experience) is very common. When you (self-projecting here, fwiw) open a new watch, yes, sometimes the first glance leads to a distinct "meh" feeling. Paired with that, is a strong impulse to nevertheless unwrap it, size it, wear it, and kinda try and see if maybe it is "better on wrist", that maybe it would end up working out somehow. Maybe its some variation of the "sunken cost fallacy", where you dont want to admit to yourself that the shiny new toy is a dud. Especially if its based on something aesthetics-based or preference-based, not an outright QC issue.


I definitely think there's something psychological happening between the purchase and the opening, which clouds people's thinking, often preventing them from recognizing (or just acknowledging) their own disappointment, and acting in a way we'd consider "logical".



X2-Elijah said:


> As for how a new watch enthusiast should approach all this... Sigh. Honestly, the safest approach is to buy used to test these things out; if something really works, then one can sell on the "test model" and get a fresh one for keeping. Also, if at all possible, asking around for opinion/feedback from the people who had that watch and sold it on.


I think that's good advice, for the noobs who'd take it. But it seems like a lot of noobs instead end up going full-on "BUY ALL THE WATCHES", which of course leads to a lot of flipping for a loss.



X2-Elijah said:


> I wouldnt hold it "against" the brand, however.. yes, I would extrapolate that particular experience to the brands watches in general. And yes, it probably would affect my buying behaviour, if I knew that model A looked way different (/worse) irl than in photos, then of course I would assume models B, C and D will be the same. At the very least, scrutiny level would go waaaay up.


Right. Maybe "hold it against the brand" isn't the right phrasing. I just meant, if you know Brand X's photos are generally too flattering to the product, does it stop you, or slow you down, from considering that brand's watches in the future (this question now being rhetorical, since you just answered it)?



X2-Elijah said:


> Maybe that sweet spot is other user photos, maybe that sweet spot is youtube videos (since they tend to have minimal "effects/photo" processing).


I like using customers' photos for a variety of reasons. Among others, many customers take great pics, it prevents anyone from accusing us of being too heavy-handed with photo editing, and it demonstrates that there are happy customers out there. It somewhat surprises me to see some brands which only seem to use their own photos, not customers'.



Hornet99 said:


> Was hesitant about adding this, being directed at NTH, but think it's worthwhile. The NTH subs are great, I love 'em and have owned a fair number and if anyone is looking for something like that I'd not hesitate to recommend them. However, I've not kept any and wouldn't buy another for very specific reasons* but the curious thing is that seeing photos of them, especially good ones, makes me start thinking "Hmmmmm, maybe I should get on......" despite having been through it. OK, so after having owned so many I stop myself, but still it's the behaviour that's interesting.......
> 
> * - these are all things related to features of the design that I don't like and added up are enough to detract from the good points.


Candidly, if someone decides my watches aren't for them, but still thinks highly enough of them to recommend them, I take that as high praise.



dmjonez said:


> I've thought about the "would good photos make me buy a crappy watch" issue some more, and I can completely understand how anyone could be drawn in. My best example of this might be Kickstarter. No known product, only photos. I must have lucked out in the past, as most of my purchases at least looked like their photos. But I've learned here on WUS, be vary careful about trusting unknown sellers. Buy the seller. And for that reason, just a set of really good photos isn't enough reason to try a watch. I look for reviews, threads on WUS, etc...
> 
> As to the lure of getting a new watch on my wrist, it is VERY strong. I don't think I'm capable of doing a thorough examination before one gets unwrapped and worn. Only cursory. But along those lines, I recently bought an Alpina (great on-line photos AND good reviews), started wearing it, and after about 2-3 months it started malfunctioning. It worked fine at first, so even if I had done a complete testing and examination on the day of delivery, I don't think it would have helped. It went back for warranty repair, and now it's been on the dark side of the moon in quarantine for 3 months. So even with reasonably good due diligence, stuff happens


The buy the seller thing is a part of it for me. I care what people think about me and my brand based on little things like the images used in promotion.

There are brands I won't name, which don't really engage much with people online, and use very good photography to sell their products, which I've noticed rarely look as good in customers' photos. It gives me a bad feeling about those brands, whereas I'm friendly with several of my competitors, who I see as being more transparent.

Your Alpina experience seems to be unfortunately typical of many big brands' warranty service, even before the global pandemic, just based on the stories I've read. Again, what's interesting to me is to see the disparity between reality and perception.

The perception among many seems to be, "I won't buy a micro, only mainstream brands, because they'll provide better service if I ever need it." I know there are small brands that don't offer good service, and big brands which do, but when I read those "it's been 6 months and I still don't have my watch back" stories, it's much more common for them to be about big brands than small brands.

It also leads me to question people's assumptions about Swiss production. If they don't have enough watchmakers and production being done in-country to facilitate a repair and provide reasonably good communications about it within less than 3 months, it's hard for me to believe that they're doing much production there at all.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

With Instagram, youtube/wus reviews, wus following of the watch/brand and specifications listed it is hard to mess up.
On top of that, if you are not 100%, buy used first to minimize loss later.

I have only been disappointed with a few watches for what you get for the money. Doxa was one of them. I realized I bought into hype and history. Yeah I like the look but not for what they want. 
This in general is what will throw me off, big brand hype and history which wus members support. 

I am tough on QC, I have sent many watches I bought new if QC is not 100%, I dont care if its a $50 watch.

I have sworn off brands where if I corresponded with the owner or a dealer before the purchase and I specifically gave them directions what to inspect for me before sending a watch. 
They tell me yes will do, then I receive the watch and immediately after opening, it has the issue I asked them to check, I will send it back the same minute and forget the brand and the dealer. I am a complicated buyer, I know that, I tell you I am ahead of time, don’t sell me the watch then.

Damasko is one of the brands I am done buying for good. I have had many qc issues that are maybe normal to most...
Recent example, my buddy just bought a brand new chrono from them for 2k+ and the date cutout is crooked, like the top of the rectangle is sloping down and the AD told him, oh yeah I have had many buyers bring that up, Damasko says thats within specs. What haha? 

Other than all this, i have realized I flipped watches I liked in order to get something else because it bugs me to have watches sitting around. Therefore I cannot have a large collection. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> With Instagram, youtube/wus reviews, wus following of the watch/brand and specifications listed it is hard to mess up.
> On top of that, if you are not 100%, buy used first to minimize loss later.
> 
> I have only been disappointed with a few watches for what you get for the money. Doxa was one of them. I realized I bought into hype and history. Yeah I like the look but not for what they want.
> ...


I'll be honest - I've had a few guys email us to ask us to do "extra QC" of some sort, because of some particular pet peeve, or because they straight up admit they're OCD. We don't do it, because we can't, because most of our inventory is sitting in a warehouse waiting to be shipped, not next to me in my office or in Dan's shop.

I understand the frustration. My usual drink is vodka and tonic with a squeeze of lime. It's pretty simple, but you'd be surprised how many places manage to mess that up. It's happened so often that I got into the habit of over-explaining my drink order to bartenders and servers ("on the rocks, and that's TONIC, not SELTZER", etc).

But doing that only seemed to increase their confusion and make it even more likely they'd get my drink order wrong. I realized it's better to just give them my order, hope for the best, send a drink back if it's wrong, and try not to dwell on it while waiting for its replacement. No point in assuming that they'll get it wrong before they do.

Even if (and back when) we had the ability to do one more round of QC, I wouldn't. The watches go through 6 rounds of QC. The odds of us missing something are very slim. On the rare occasion we do miss something, we generally cover return shipping costs, and are happy to send a replacement or issue a refund, along with an apology for the inconvenience.

Stuff happens. When it does, we try to sort it out as painlessly as possible for the customer. If someone's going to get their pants in such a twist over it that they swear off my brand, they're doing me a favor.

Otherwise, the odds are that whatever someone finds is probably within our QC standards, and if the guy who gets the watch is going to complain about something within our standards, the odds are high that he's going to find something to complain about in any watch we send, so there's no point in going through the exercise of re-inspecting every watch in our inventory, looking for the one that's "more perfect" than all the others.

If a watch is in our inventory, odds are better than 99% that we already consider it "perfect", which is to say, within our QC standards. I've gone through a handful of iterations of sending multiple pieces in sequence to a customer, who rejected each one. I eventually learned that this is a numbers game. Ship enough watches, someone's going to get one with something we missed in QC, or complain about something that's actually within our QC standards. There's no avoiding it, so there's no point in trying.

The thing about QC standards is that while many people think that 100% perfection should be the standard, that's not realistic. We're talking about machine-made or hand-made parts, assembled by humans. There's got to be a tolerance for some slight variation. It's up to the company to decide what is or isn't within their own standards. The customer can't dictate those standards to the company, the customer can only decide if they are willing to accept them or not.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I can’t recall a time when I’ve bought a watch from a physical store. Seen and handled the exact watch I was contemplating. Seems nuts to spend so much money on watches (something we’re all hyper particular about) and we’re all having to do our best divining the merits of them through all of the online methods outlined here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> .


I have had 7-8 NTH watches and they were all perfect, including used ones I bought. 
Most new ones I bought came from John from watchgauge And I think I only asked him to check the first one because thats the first NTH I ever bought. 
This is also why I buy NTH btw. 
I do think most micros I have had were perfect QC. 
My stress level is minimized with micros.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MartinVang said:


> I agree





GlenRoiland said:


> With everything?


Since that was Martin's second post in 2020, and only his fifth in the last two years, I think we should be honored. And patient, as it may be another year or so before we find out with what he agrees...


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> ...What advice can be given to guys who are newer in the hobby, to help avoid this sort of situation?


Know what you want. Unfortunately, that only comes with experience and going through some watches.

In the meantime, acknowledge that you will have a learning curve, between being able to buy based on pix/renders, and specs, and be happy, and receive a new watch and be in some ways disappointed.

Experience, reading what others have said and knowing to do some basic due diligence research on a model or brand, before buying. Everyone's got their specific dislikes, and if you find anyone mentions any of them in regard to a watch you are considering, it probably won't measure up IRL.

Don't get caught up in the hype for the latest, greatest release. Compare it to what you like or are looking for in a watch, and if there are off-notes, no matter how popular it might be, it may not be for you.

Expect the occasional disappointment -- not everything is going to do it for you, in person, no matter how much you think it will.

And recognize that you will pay some kind of premium on this journey of horological discovery. So you get a watch and don't love it. Flip it. Will you take a loss on it? Sure. Consider it a loss for educational purposes, what you have to pay to gain the knowledge needed to avoid such situations in the future.

I'm not sure there's a way to avoid this, other than to be patient and wait to pick up used watches at low prices. Risk is that you will miss out on a new release and it will be rare to see second hand, or even appreciate in price past what you're willing to pay. But in most cases, first owner will take the steep new watch depreciation hit, so if you flip a watch that doesn't do it for you, you won't lose as much. Also, first owner will have dealt with any warranty/quality issues, hopefully.

Good luck to them...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

...and now that I'm caught up.

When I'm looking at a new watch, I get moon eyes for it, and in pro pix online, I see what I like about it. Once it arrives, still excited, I size it up, put it on, and... hmm, not quite what I expected, and I'm suddenly noticing what I don't like about it. 

Or maybe I'm not noticing details until I've handled it -- unwrapped, sized, examined, worn... and, woah!, I don't like that. That's not right...

Or, when I receive it, after having spent that money, and -- potentially -- in the meantime found other watches on which I could have lavished cash to better effect... well all of a sudden, it kind of loses its luster, does not live up the the hype I had built up in my own mind. It might be a good watch, but is it as good as that other one might have been? Buyer's remorse. I could blame the watch I have, but it's probably more to do with me. 

In most cases, when I find something I don't like about a watch and go back to compare it to photos, I see what is throwing me off, just didn't recognize that it even would be an off-note in person, to me. ...especially if fans and other customers don't find that it's even an issue. It's not that the photos weren't clear, it's just that I didn't recognize whatever detail as something that would nag on my consciousness. 

And with new or little-known microbrands, budget watches, kickstarter projects and the like? You buy the ticked, you take the ride... There may be occasional quality issues. There may be the occasional off-note in a purchase. Par for the course. Deal with it.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> And recognize that you will pay some kind of premium on this journey of horological discovery. So you get a watch and don't love it. Flip it. Will you take a loss on it? Sure. Consider it a loss for educational purposes, what you have to pay to gain the knowledge needed to avoid such situations in the future....


Just make sure that you really do learn the lessons from the flips. I learnt that I should never buy anything over 40mm diameter, but I seemed to have forgotten this somewhere along the way and stupidly purchased outside that rule, those watches didn't last.......


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The perception among many seems to be, "I won't buy a micro, only mainstream brands, because they'll provide better service if I ever need it." I know there are small brands that don't offer good service, and big brands which do, but when I read those "it's been 6 months and I still don't have my watch back" stories, it's much more common for them to be about big brands than small brands.
> 
> It also leads me to question people's assumptions about Swiss production. If they don't have enough watchmakers and production being done in-country to facilitate a repair and provide reasonably good communications about it within less than 3 months, it's hard for me to believe that they're doing much production there at all.


I can say that I've never worried about getting one of my microbrand watches serviced, probably because most of them have used the 9015, and in that case, if there's ever a significant problem, I'd just buy a replacement movement. The few I've had with the SW-200, same deal. A new one costs $175, and that's going to be less than the cost of a full service would be.

My local watchmaker currently has my SDGC017 in, which has developed a problem with the keyless works where it won't auto-start after handwinding unless the crown is pulled out to the time set position, and then pushed back in. Seiko gives a base quote of $260 for a 6R21 service, and from what I've heard about Seiko USA service, I'd get it back "eventually." So there's definitely zero upside to buying a Seiko in my opinion over a Miyota powered microbrand. If it was a 6R15 I'd probably just toss it rather than trying to have it diagnosed and repaired, which gets to the significant downside of in-house movements, including Seiko's that aren't available in commercial versions.

I'm interested in Ball's Engineer M Marvelight, but the in-house caliber 7309 makes the watch thicker than it would have to be with an SW-300 in it, and basically requires going back to Ball for a service. An equivalent Monta on the other hand, anyone could work on that.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Want a window into my world?

Here you go -

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/curious-tale-used-seriously-abused-watch%85-5202285.html


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

Random pic.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those who are on Facebook - we're doing a membership drive for the NTH Fans group. When we get to 2,000 members, with 1500 active, we'll do a giveaway.

Join the group here - https://www.facebook.com/groups/JanisTradingCoFans/.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

So glad I don't monkey around with the innards of my watches. Seriously sounds like more trouble than it's worth.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> MartinVang said:
> 
> 
> > I agree
> ...


Now that's funny!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Boredom fun time. 
Unscientific, not really timed, crappy phone photo lume testing.

The contenders? All divers. 
Top. My new Lüm-Tec 350M and the Gruppo Gamma Vanguard. 
Bottom. The NTH brothers, Sauro and Tikuna.























Time frame, just shy of one hour.

I'd like to say, the pics really dont do the actual "dim" lume justice. All of these are still incredibly legible at night when eyes are adjusted to darkness.

That said. I think the "duration" champ is obvious... but who wins the "initial brightness" title?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That Lum-Tec lume is insane. It ought to be, considering the brand name.

I know their vendor. I didn't even get to ask the question before the vendor flat out told me they wouldn't replicate LT's lume for any other brands.

That said, initial brightness and longevity is about the lume color, quantity present, and the intensity of the charge. In an apples-to-apples comparison, I think our vendors do a pretty good job with the lume application.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> That Lum-Tec lume is insane. It ought to be, considering the brand name.
> 
> I know their vendor. I didn't even get to ask the question before the vendor flat out told me they wouldn't replicate LT's lume for any other brands.
> 
> That said, initial brightness and longevity is about the lume color, quantity present, and the intensity of the charge. In an apples-to-apples comparison, I think our vendors do a pretty good job with the lume application.


I would've liked to have compared my Lum-tec M74 with my Borealis Cascais, but I didn't have both watches simultaneously. Those were definitely the two champs that I've personally experienced. I only had the Citizen Attesa to compare with the Lum-tec, and Citizen's lume is very good, but not that good. My watch collection was much larger when I had the Borealis though, and it stomped them all, (yes, including my Nacken Modern Blue) though to be fair, BGW9 isn't supposed to be able to keep up with C3 X1, so I wouldn't have expected it to be able to hang on with the Borealis. I was however surprised that the Cascais beat the dial from an SBDX001 Marine Master. That is quite an achievement.


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## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Maybe @hwa can do a comparison showing Vincent's handywork? Would be surprised if anything can outshine it!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I know their vendor. I didn't even get to ask the question before the vendor flat out told me they wouldn't replicate LT's lume for any other brands.


Maybe if you and 500 other micro brand owners got together......?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Maybe if you and 500 other micro brand owners got together......?


lolz...

Woke up early this AM. Glanced at my Scorpéne, 3:15am... no complaints about lume glow longevity on my end.


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## clayteson (Jan 5, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> 12 hour V2 Azores in the works?


PixlMan, I tried to message you about the TSAR but your message box is full? PM me if possible. Thanks!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Woke up early this AM. Glanced at my Scorpéne, 3:15am... no complaints about lume glow longevity on my end.


Like I said, the "dim" lume pics dont do true justice. I have absolutely zero complaints about the lume longevity of my NTHs. They're perfectly visible into the wee hours if my eyes are adjusted to the dark.

I was just bored and wanted to see if LT was full of crap or not.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Like I said, the "dim" lume pics dont do true justice. I have absolutely zero complaints about the lume longevity of my NTHs. They're perfectly visible into the wee hours if my eyes are adjusted to the dark.
> 
> I was just bored and wanted to see if LT was full of crap or not.


Don't get me wrong, was not criticizing your comparison at all. It's actually pretty cool to see the different lume shots, over time.

I actually think lume is a bit overrated, for what it needs to do. But everyone likes different things about watches, I know there are lume-junkies out there, and where there's a market, there's a company looking to fill that need. Sounds like Lum-Tec is it. If they make smaller watches, I might even own one...

And FWIW, I am now officially over lume-dial watches. Unless, of course, Doc does a reversed-out Scorpene...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I would've liked to have compared my Lum-tec M74 with my Borealis Cascais, but I didn't have both watches simultaneously. Those were definitely the two champs that I've personally experienced. I only had the Citizen Attesa to compare with the Lum-tec, and Citizen's lume is very good, but not that good. My watch collection was much larger when I had the Borealis though, and it stomped them all, (yes, including my Nacken Modern Blue) though to be fair, BGW9 isn't supposed to be able to keep up with C3 X1, so I wouldn't have expected it to be able to hang on with the Borealis. I was however surprised that the Cascais beat the dial from an SBDX001 Marine Master. That is quite an achievement.


As you say, the X1 lume on the Cascais is brighter and longer lasting than regular Superluminova. The more apples-to-apples comparison would be with a DevilRay, which also uses X1 lume.

I'm good with that comparison.










PS - anyone else having a hard time uploading pictures to the forum while browsing with Google Chrome, or just me?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Maybe if you and 500 other micro brand owners got together......?
> 
> View attachment 15217891


Well played.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Like I said, the "dim" lume pics dont do true justice. I have absolutely zero complaints about the lume longevity of my NTHs. They're perfectly visible into the wee hours if my eyes are adjusted to the dark.
> 
> I was just bored and wanted to see if LT was full of crap or not.


Not "full of crap", but probably fair to say they're promoting something they do which may not exactly be impossible for anyone else to do.

According to something they put out in the world at one point, they use 6 layers of lume, on top of a white "titanium dioxide" base layer (i.e, "white pigment"), then sealed with a clear top coat layer.

I believe they trademarked the term "Maximum Darkness Visibility" and "Lum-Tec 8 layer luminous process", but they haven't patented any invention. My not-a-lawyer layman's understanding suggests that anyone could copy their technique, but couldn't invoke the same terms. A brand could do the same exact thing, just not call it by the same names.

I know my vendors use lots of lume, and seal with a clear top coat. I don't know how much difference the white titanium dioxide base makes, or what it would cost, or anything else that seems worth figuring out, so long as our lume is good enough to impress most people, which it seems to be.

If it adds 5% to the price, does it make enough of a difference to get people to pay 5% more, if what we're already doing is good enough? I don't know, but since no one is complaining about our lume, I'm not going to fix what doesn't seem to be broken.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Random question for all you bracelet/deployant clasp fans. I've never really thought much about this until I went to give Patrik over at Clover some measurements for something he's making me for the Azzuauro.

On every bracelet I own, the number of links is smaller on the 6 o'clock side than the 12. I like my clasp centered on the bottom of my wrist(duh). But when I gave Patrik the measurements he seemed confused that I gave him two different measurements. Seeing as I've only got one custom, and it's not on a deployant, this caught me by surprise. I simply measured my existing bracelet ends from one spring bar hole to the other, accounting for the size difference of the stock 18mm with micro adjustments and the 20mm ratcheting from the 1st gen DRs.

So my question is, is my wrist just weird? Even in pics I've seen of customs made in canvas/cordura/leather both pieces seem to be the same size. Are yalls bracelet sides the same length as one another?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Not "full of crap", but probably fair to say they're promoting something they do which may not exactly be impossible for anyone else to do.
> 
> According to something they put out in the world at one point, they use 6 layers of lume, on top of a white "titanium dioxide" base layer (i.e, "white pigment"), then sealed with a clear top coat layer.
> 
> ...


A little further reading on titanium dioxide has been - forgive the pun - illuminating...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide

It seems that in some forms, it's basically just a very white pigment used in all sorts of applications from sun-screen to food coloring to paint. I'm no scientist, but my layman's understanding of what I'm reading suggests that in some other forms, it's either extremely reflective, or actually has some of it's own luminescent properties, like superluminova.

So...logically, using it as a base coat would make sense. Even if it's just really white and / or really reflective, that would seem likely to enhance the potency of any superluminova layered on top if it, compared to simply laying lume down on top of a dial plate (particularly one with a darker color) or on top of metallic applied indices, the way most, if not all other brands are doing lume.

If it's not only really white and /or really reflective, but also somewhat luminescent itself, then that would seem to enhance the potency even more.

Yay, science!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> A little further reading on titanium dioxide has been - forgive the pun - illuminating...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide
> 
> ...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Random question for all you bracelet/deployant clasp fans. I've never really thought much about this until I went to give Patrik over at Clover some measurements for something he's making me for the Azzuauro.
> 
> *On every bracelet I own, the number of links is smaller on the 6 o'clock side than the 12*. I like my clasp centered on the bottom of my wrist(duh). But when I gave Patrik the measurements he seemed confused that I gave him two different measurements. Seeing as I've only got one custom, and it's not on a deployant, this caught me by surprise. I simply measured my existing bracelet ends from one spring bar hole to the other, accounting for the size difference of the stock 18mm with micro adjustments and the 20mm ratcheting from the 1st gen DRs.
> 
> So my question is, is my wrist just weird? Even in pics I've seen of customs made in canvas/cordura/leather both pieces seem to be the same size. Are yalls bracelet sides the same length as one another?


Same here.

Just checked -- on my NTH, the 12 side is 1.5 links longer than the 6 side; i.e. 12 side is 7 links, six side is 5 links plus a half-link. Does not include either the endlinks, or the links attached to the clasp. On the microadjust/12 side, last link is adjusted all the way out to the last hole, so I consider the above to be a true measure. If ordering a custom strap I might even tend to go longer on the 12 side and make up the difference with the micro adjust holes, just in case.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Random question for all you bracelet/deployant clasp fans. I've never really thought much about this until I went to give Patrik over at Clover some measurements for something he's making me for the Azzuauro.
> 
> On every bracelet I own, the number of links is smaller on the 6 o'clock side than the 12. I like my clasp centered on the bottom of my wrist(duh). But when I gave Patrik the measurements he seemed confused that I gave him two different measurements. Seeing as I've only got one custom, and it's not on a deployant, this caught me by surprise. I simply measured my existing bracelet ends from one spring bar hole to the other, accounting for the size difference of the stock 18mm with micro adjustments and the 20mm ratcheting from the 1st gen DRs.
> 
> So my question is, is my wrist just weird? Even in pics I've seen of customs made in canvas/cordura/leather both pieces seem to be the same size. Are yalls bracelet sides the same length as one another?


Metal bracelets usually have more links on the 12 o'clock side for me. 
Rule of thumb, if the watch head gets "pulled" towards 6 or 12 o clock side, you need more links on that side. 
I don't care if clasp is centered on the bottom, and it usually is not, as long as the watch head is centered and does not get pulled one way or the other.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Random question for all you bracelet/deployant clasp fans. I've never really thought much about this until I went to give Patrik over at Clover some measurements for something he's making me for the Azzuauro.
> 
> On every bracelet I own, the number of links is smaller on the 6 o'clock side than the 12. I like my clasp centered on the bottom of my wrist(duh). But when I gave Patrik the measurements he seemed confused that I gave him two different measurements. Seeing as I've only got one custom, and it's not on a deployant, this caught me by surprise. I simply measured my existing bracelet ends from one spring bar hole to the other, accounting for the size difference of the stock 18mm with micro adjustments and the 20mm ratcheting from the 1st gen DRs.
> 
> So my question is, is my wrist just weird? Even in pics I've seen of customs made in canvas/cordura/leather both pieces seem to be the same size. Are yalls bracelet sides the same length as one another?


Side note: not having the bracelet clasp bugs the heck out of me. If it's not centred it'll constantly annoy me. I have literally spent hours trying to readjust bracelets to get this perfect balance. Crazy huh?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Random question for all you bracelet/deployant clasp fans. I've never really thought much about this until I went to give Patrik over at Clover some measurements for something he's making me for the Azzuauro.
> 
> On every bracelet I own, the number of links is smaller on the 6 o'clock side than the 12. I like my clasp centered on the bottom of my wrist(duh). But when I gave Patrik the measurements he seemed confused that I gave him two different measurements. Seeing as I've only got one custom, and it's not on a deployant, this caught me by surprise. I simply measured my existing bracelet ends from one spring bar hole to the other, accounting for the size difference of the stock 18mm with micro adjustments and the 20mm ratcheting from the 1st gen DRs.
> 
> So my question is, is my wrist just weird? Even in pics I've seen of customs made in canvas/cordura/leather both pieces seem to be the same size. Are yalls bracelet sides the same length as one another?


Hells naw. 
On metal bracelets, I always have like 2-5 more links on the "outside"/12-side than on the "inside"/6-side.

On leather straps (and canvas/rubber should be the same), they are almost always already much shorter on the buckle-holding piece, you usually see "135/85" or "120/70". If I got a strap with both ends equally long, tbh I'd think it was a manufacturing error...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm 99.99% certain that when we ship watches, the bracelet has the same number of links on each side. If your bracelet has more links on one side than the other, it's because you took more links out of the one side, versus the other.

I recall reading some discussion here on WUS, about bracelet sizing, and how making the 12 side longer helps the positioning of the clasp. Prior to that, I'd been trying to keep both sides the same length. Since then, I try to make the 12 side longer. I have no idea if it's made any difference for me personally, but I don't want to lose my WIS card, so I do it to fit in with the crowd, and not ask questions.

Typically, a strap with buckle would be shorter on the buckle side, which is at 12, and longer on the 6 side, which would seem counter-intuitive given the above. I suppose the side with the holes is made longer intentionally, because it allows the strap to have more holes, and thus fit a wider range of wrists, but I'm not sure it wouldn't make more sense to make the 12 side at least slightly longer. It seems like all my straps feel a bit short to me, and I don't have huge wrists at all.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> If it adds 5% to the price, does it make enough of a difference to get people to pay 5% more, if what we're already doing is good enough? I don't know, but since no one is complaining about our lume, I'm not going to fix what doesn't seem to be broken.


I can only speak for myself, but I don't think it's worth it. Watches with extremely good lume like Lum-tec's or others with lots of C3 X1 on them, or Seiko's best Lumibrite models are neat, but it's mostly a novelty. As long as they're still readable on the nightstand at 4am, that's really all that matters. One thing I do think is interesting (and not at all surprising) is that there's nothing special at all about Rolex's Chromalight. A good application of SL will easily beat it, as there are plenty of videos of Oris Aquis models (which seem to have exceptionally good lume) easily taking down Explorers and Submariners.


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> So my question is, is my wrist just weird? Even in pics I've seen of customs made in canvas/cordura/leather both pieces seem to be the same size. Are yalls bracelet sides the same length as one another?


Yesterday I added a half link to a bracelet with a butterfly clasp, making both sides even, and was annoyed all day that they clasp was not centered. Not even close. So I measured with calipers and the outside (12) side of my wrist is 5mm taller than the inside. To center the clasp, I need more links on the 12 side than the 6. The actual difference might vary from person to person, but I'm guessing most wrists are more egg shaped than oval.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Random question for all you bracelet/deployant clasp fans. I've never really thought much about this until I went to give Patrik over at Clover some measurements for something he's making me for the Azzuauro.
> 
> On every bracelet I own, the number of links is smaller on the 6 o'clock side than the 12. I like my clasp centered on the bottom of my wrist(duh).
> 
> So my question is, is my wrist just weird? Even in pics I've seen of customs made in canvas/cordura/leather both pieces seem to be the same size. Are yalls bracelet sides the same length as one another?


I had Patrik make a custom for my Alpina, also to fit a clasp. They were completely different lengths but he didn't seem bothered by it. FWIW, I had previously cut a Bonetto strap and used it for the measurements


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One might argue that since lume is meant to illuminate diving watches, during dives, which typically don't last for hours on end, that anything more than a few hours of luminescence is needless overkill, and if you want to use your watch to know the time when you happen to wake up in the wee hours of the morning, perhaps get a digital or Timex indiglo, that lights up on command, with the push of a button.

Sometimes we forget that these are tool watches, as in, they're meant for a specific purpose (in this case, diving). While all-night lume may seem like a good thing for the "real world", I'd argue A) it's outside the tool's minimum effectiveness / performance requirements, and B) not many people in the "real world" truly need all-night lume, because they're checking the time on their watch at 4am.

See "the date change takes too long to happen" for further examples of WIS-enhanced lunacy (as in - who's sitting there, checking the date between 11:45pm and 12:15am, because they need to know the date at that exact time, 15 minutes before or after midnight, and how often is that really going to be such a problem that it's worth complaining about online?).

Sometimes the $hlt WIS debate makes me want to drop an Invicta into a tube sock, and just run around beating people with it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Sometimes the $hlt WIS debate makes me want to drop an Invicta into a tube sock, and just run around beating people with it.


Phantom date change position.

STFU. Get out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just posted this to IG and FB.

The other new color for the updated Antilles, a bit lighter and redder than the one revealed a few days back (with the darker brown edge) Really digging this dial texture, combined with the "fumé" color fade. What do you think? Which is the better color?









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Darker > Redder


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

3WR said:


> Darker > Redder
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




My thing for brown dial watches is gonna make this very tempting.

I owned the first series brown (and the white and the black with green triangles ) and they where great watches. Very eager to check out the new versions. 
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Just posted this to IG and FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the darker one better

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So far, seems like more people like the darker, which somewhat surprises me. We made the lighter one first. The darker one came about months later. 


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> So far, seems like more people like the darker, which somewhat surprises me. We made the lighter one first. The darker one came about months later.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I guess I'm in the minority here then. The redder/lighter one is stunning. And I'm loving the texture.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> One might argue that since lume is meant to illuminate diving watches, during dives, which typically don't last for hours on end, that anything more than a few hours of luminescence is needless overkill, and if you want to use your watch to know the time when you happen to wake up in the wee hours of the morning, perhaps get a digital or Timex indiglo, that lights up on command, with the push of a button.


True, but it's also a question of "does all night legibility give one diver added value over another?" An SKX or Turtle can dive just as well as any Submariner, and their lume is very nearly as good, so you could argue that anything more than that is needless overkill, if all you're looking for is a diving tool. 300M and above ratings are overkill (nobody is going that deep), HEVs are needless overkill (saturation divers will be using computers, not Seamasters) etc etc etc.

The problem with the Indiglo button is that its actually too effective, that much brightness would be jarring, plus it requires that one own a Timex Ironman, which, no thanks. Tritium watches are probably the best at the 4am quick glance, but any watch with decent lume can get the job done, so one being a bit stronger or weaker than another is sort of inconsequential.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> True, but it's also a question of "does all night legibility give one diver added value over another?" An SKX or Turtle can dive just as well as any Submariner, and their lume is very nearly as good, so you could argue that anything more than that is needless overkill, if all you're looking for is a diving tool. 300M and above ratings are overkill (nobody is going that deep), HEVs are needless overkill (saturation divers will be using computers, not Seamasters) etc etc etc.
> 
> The problem with the Indiglo button is that its actually too effective, that much brightness would be jarring, plus it requires that one own a Timex Ironman, which, no thanks. Tritium watches are probably the best at the 4am quick glance, but any watch with decent lume can get the job done, so one being a bit stronger or weaker than another is sort of inconsequential.


I suppose my larger point is just the general frustration seeing the unrealistic expectations many WIS have, from COSC-level accuracy to all-night lume, perfection as a QC standard, and everything in between.

In many ways, we are all our own biggest impediment to enjoying this hobby.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

^^ Don't forget - it's all that for <$500, or free if I'm an "influencer" on IG. 

I have wanted a brown watch without a bezel. This might be it. But I'm in the darker camp too. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Just posted this to IG and FB.
> 
> The other new color for the updated Antilles, a bit lighter and redder than the one revealed a few days back (with the darker brown edge) Really digging this dial texture, combined with the "fumé" color fade. What do you think? Which is the better color?
> 
> ...


Top one is killer, more so because of no date.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> Top one is killer, more so because of no date.


With you on the no date sentiment. The hole in the brown eye one looks a little rough. Maybe an unfortunate byproduct of the interesting dial texture.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> With you on the no date sentiment. The hole in the brown eye one looks a little rough. Maybe an unfortunate byproduct of the interesting dial texture.


We've got our name that color winner!

Brown Eye!

Butt jokes are always fun.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just posted this to IG and FB.
> 
> The other new color for the updated Antilles, a bit lighter and redder than the one revealed a few days back (with the darker brown edge) Really digging this dial texture, combined with the "fumé" color fade. What do you think? Which is the better color?
> 
> ...


Darker is better. But the date window is no bueno. And I'm in the "gotta have a date" camp, usually.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Both nice, but I think the darker colour is more versatile and I also prefer (what appears to be) the stronger contrast between the outer and inner dial. 

I'm a "needs a date" guy, too, but I would ditch that date window. 

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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> One might argue that since lume is meant to illuminate diving watches, during dives, which typically don't last for hours on end, that anything more than a few hours of luminescence is needless overkill, and if you want to use your watch to know the time when you happen to wake up in the wee hours of the morning, perhaps get a digital or Timex indiglo, that lights up on command, with the push of a button.
> 
> Sometimes we forget that these are tool watches, as in, they're meant for a specific purpose (in this case, diving). While all-night lume may seem like a good thing for the "real world", I'd argue A) it's outside the tool's minimum effectiveness / performance requirements, and B) not many people in the "real world" truly need all-night lume, because they're checking the time on their watch at 4am.
> 
> ...


Yeah, and what about those crazy WIS that wanted a lumed crown?! Like ya need to find the crown on a dive and unscrew it b-)


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Just posted this to IG and FB.
> 
> The other new color for the updated Antilles, a bit lighter and redder than the one revealed a few days back (with the darker brown edge) Really digging this dial texture, combined with the "fumé" color fade. What do you think? Which is the better color?
> 
> ...


I really prefer the lighter variant. It looks a lot more "intentional colour" and a lot less "years of grubby oily fingers grabbing the outer edge leading to darkening".


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A thought about those 4-ish o clock round date windows... Perhaps there needs to be a monocle frame print around the window, with a small "chain" tracing from above/mid. People are gonna complain about that window placement anyway, might as well turn it into a design element.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ian_61 said:


> Maybe @hwa can do a comparison showing Vincent's handywork? Would be surprised if anything can outshine it!




































































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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Mmmm, gotta love that meth-fuelled rave aesthetic.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> What do you think? Which is the better color?


Will get this right out of the way, first: I am not a buyer for any of these. A lume dial Antilles and a Sinn 856 convinced me that I don't like 40mm, all-dial watches. Yes, the Antilles has an internal bezel; no it doesn't make a difference -- the thin bezel and expanse of crystal across a 40mm case is not for me.

Second, not sure why, but I am just not a fan of brown dials. At least, not yet, anyway.

Third, as much as I like a date window on a watch, and really don't care about placement, something about this iteration just feels off. Too close to the 4 index, maybe?

Having said all that, the darker brown would get my vote. Where someone else said it looks like it is old and used, like someone handled it with grubby fingers over time, I like that it looks a bit aged, like it has some patina to it. In the same vein, the other one looks like it's been left out in the sun for way too long and faded. Darker > redder.


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## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BOOM!

Thank you brother @hwa ?

For others' info, that nuclear lume courtesy of Vincent is titanium oxide backed too. Really gotta pull my finger out and send him a dial and hands for some TLC!


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> Just posted this to IG and FB.
> 
> The other new color for the updated Antilles, a bit lighter and redder than the one revealed a few days back (with the darker brown edge) Really digging this dial texture, combined with the "fumé" color fade. What do you think? Which is the better color?


I like the darker dial better. And agree with others re. date / no date options, but that's likely happening any way.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Managed the hand swap at the weekend on my Barracuda blue. Really loving the gilt sword hands. Next will be the bezel swap. Just testing the water to see which bezel I prefer.



















What do you all think?

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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> Managed the hand swap at the weekend on my Barracuda blue. Really loving the gilt sword hands. Next will be the bezel swap. Just testing the water to see which bezel I prefer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It really is a difficult choice here, as either look just fine, but I'd probz go for the top insert.

Cheerz,

Alan


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Omegafanboy said:


> Managed the hand swap at the weekend on my Barracuda blue. Really loving the gilt sword hands. Next will be the bezel swap. Just testing the water to see which bezel I prefer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am a sucker for sword hands. Naturally, I am all in for this mod. Great job. I had a look on the parts website for my Barracuda Blue as well, but the only one that I liked is the Tiburon insert. Between the fully graduated bezel and the stock, I'd personally stick with stock.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> Managed the hand swap at the weekend on my Barracuda blue. Really loving the gilt sword hands. Next will be the bezel swap. Just testing the water to see which bezel I prefer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Milsub insert for me!

Where'd you find these hands? Are they brushed?

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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Managed the hand swap at the weekend on my Barracuda blue. Really loving the gilt sword hands. Next will be the bezel swap. Just testing the water to see which bezel I prefer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nicely done!

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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Managed the hand swap at the weekend on my Barracuda blue. Really loving the gilt sword hands. Next will be the bezel swap. Just testing the water to see which bezel I prefer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm in the "less is more" camp. I like the top one.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Hand swap looks amazing. I'd go with the stock bezel as well. To much bright white on the 60 minute bezel competing with the warmth of the gilt on the dial. Plus the blue of the original bezel matches the dial better.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

I think this might be the best place to ask my question since NTH extensively uses the Miyota 9xxx movement:

just wanted to ask a question to owners of the Miyota 9015/90s5 movement - do you put your watch in a watch winder? Or, do you hand-wind each time before you wear the watch?
If you use a watch winder, any watch/movement failure?

i recently had a Miyota 9xxx movement watch fail after 2 months of ownership when i put it in a watch-winder on a daily basis. that's why i'd like others' feedback.
thanks.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

bombaywalla said:


> I think this might be the best place to ask my question since NTH extensively uses the Miyota 9xxx movement:
> 
> just wanted to ask a question to owners of the Miyota 9015/90s5 movement - do you put your watch in a watch winder? Or, do you hand-wind each time before you wear the watch?
> If you use a watch winder, any watch/movement failure?
> ...


I don't get watch winders period. Why have the watch spin for no reason. It takes few seconds to get it going and set time.

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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Omegafanboy said:


> Managed the hand swap at the weekend on my Barracuda blue. Really loving the gilt sword hands. Next will be the bezel swap. Just testing the water to see which bezel I prefer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is the lume on those the same color? For some reason, the one on the bottom looks like a better match with the colors on the watch face. Otherwise, I would go for the one on the top -- less is more, in this case.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

bombaywalla said:


> I think this might be the best place to ask my question since NTH extensively uses the Miyota 9xxx movement:
> 
> just wanted to ask a question to owners of the Miyota 9015/90s5 movement - do you put your watch in a watch winder? Or, do you hand-wind each time before you wear the watch?
> If you use a watch winder, any watch/movement failure?
> ...


If the watch isn't a perpetual calendar/moon phase I see no point in putting it on a winder.

If one of my Miyota powered watches is dead, I'll give it a lil shake plus 5-10 winds, set the time and go. ETA/Sellita powered I'll do the same, but keep the hand winds to <5.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bombaywalla said:


> I think this might be the best place to ask my question since NTH extensively uses the Miyota 9xxx movement:
> 
> just wanted to ask a question to owners of the Miyota 9015/90s5 movement - do you put your watch in a watch winder? Or, do you hand-wind each time before you wear the watch?
> If you use a watch winder, any watch/movement failure?
> ...


It failed, as in the movement stopped dead, and can't be re-started?

I'll echo what others said, vis-a-vis, I don't use winders, and don't recommend them, but in your case, the failure has nothing to do with the winder.

Sometimes the movements just fail. I can't explain why this is, but it seems to always happen within a few months of delivery. Assuming the watch is still under warranty, the manufacturer should help you get it sorted.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice review of the Amphion Vintage Gilt and the Oberon II, with some nice pics - https://watchwatcha.com/2020/06/17/gilty-pleasures-going-deep-with-the-h-word-and-nth-watches/


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15221951


No joking around - any chance of a magnetic field in there? Might want to check the timekeeping now, and if it's running really fast, have it demagnetized.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pardon me while I think out loud for a moment...

I had an interesting experience over the last 24 hours. Someone emailed us to ask if our bezel inserts might fit a watch from another microbrand. Apparently he needs an insert, but the brand has been completely unresponsive.

First off, of course we have no idea if our inserts will fit any other brands' watches, but in almost every case, it's doubtful that not only the inner and outer diameter would be a match, but also the thickness, and the slopes of the upper and lower surfaces. It's a total crap-shoot. That's basically what we told him.

Secondly, while I'm not exactly annoyed *at* the guy for contacting us, it is somewhat annoying to think that because some other brands fail, their customers would turn to those which survive, not looking to make a purchase, but rather looking for support.

Yes, it may be an opportunity for us to build some goodwill and gain a customer, but it's more likely just another time-suck. It's less likely to result in a future sale than any random "when will the ____ be available again" message.

But, I knew of the brand, and the watch, and while I wouldn't say I really "know" the people behind the brand, I once spoke to one of them on the phone, and met the other at a get-together. I'm often interested in the stories of the people behind brands, so I spent a little time looking into what was going on these days, since the guy said they weren't responding to his support requests, which is never a good sign.

Short version - after some minor struggles which are common among many pre-launch startups, they did eventually launch, and deliver a watch. It appears that happened early last year. Since then, I couldn't find any evidence they've done or said much if anything to suggest they plan to keep the business going. After more than a year with no apparent activity, they seem to be another "one and done" startup that fizzled out after their first and only project.

Stories like this are not at all rare, unfortunately. I can only guess at the numbers, but I would bet that for every brand which makes it past the five year point, with 3-5 productions completed and successfully delivered, there are 10 brands that fizzle out within the first few years, and probably 100 more which never get off the starting line.

I used to get annoyed when I read comments from people online, suggesting that *ALL* micros are likely to be defunct businesses after 5 years. I hated being lumped in with people who seemed likely to fail. Not only have I always been determined to succeed, but I was (perhaps too) certain I would.

But now, after doing this 7 years, and seeing all the failures, it's hard to get upset by the generalization, much less argue that those people are "wrong". The fact is, they're mostly right. The brand which successfully launches and makes it past the 5 year mark is the exception, not the rule, sadly.

What struck me about this story is that the founders of the brand weren't wide-eyed noobs without enough understanding of the watch market, nor were they the typical "passionate enthusiast" starting a brand, but with little to no business experience. They were both relatively long-time enthusiasts with claims of respectable business bona fides. It seemed they should have had better-than-average insight into and clarity about what they were doing, and thus more likely to succeed.

I forget exactly what it was the one founder told me when we met, but I remember thinking his expectations were at the very least audacious, if not overly optimistic, to the point that I came away feeling like they were seriously underestimating the challenges involved - a bit too cocky, if you like. In retrospect, they clearly had worse-than-average insight/clarity, and the result isn't surprising.

Leaving a dinner I organized in Hong Kong in 2018, where more than 30 microbrand owners were in attendance, I asked a retail store owner also in attendance for his thoughts on the evening. He said, "I saw lots of _products_, but very few _brands_."

I think that assessment is mostly true of microbrands in general. There's a lot of focus on product design, specs, etc, but not nearly as much investment into building the brand itself. Most micros seem to be run in an episodic fashion, with stuttering starts and stops.

Like I said up top, I'm just thinking out loud. When little things like this happen, I tend to start wondering about the larger implications. How much is future support from a brand worth? How do you value a track-record? What really separates those brands with a shot at survival from those which are as good as dead? At a certain point, do people view every watch purchased from any brand that doesn't seem virtually guaranteed to stand the test of time as a gamble?

(All the above being more or less rhetorical questions I posed to myself, but since I'm exposing my thoughts, y'all may feel free to answer any, all, or none, as you see fit.)


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

docvail said:


> It failed, as in the movement stopped dead, and can't be re-started?
> 
> I'll echo what others said, vis-a-vis, I don't use winders, and don't recommend them, but in your case, the failure has nothing to do with the winder.
> 
> Sometimes the movements just fail. I can't explain why this is, but it seems to always happen within a few months of delivery. Assuming the watch is still under warranty, the manufacturer should help you get it sorted.


watch seemed to work ok on the wrist but stopped ticking in the winder. gently shook it, started up again but after a few minutes stopped. Prev day when i was wearing it, i checked accuracy using my phone app - it was -154 spd. really slow.
watch was under warranty. sent it to repair shop. I was informed that the winding mechanism had failed & debris from the failure clogged up the gears causing the watch to work intermittently. new movement was installed. I have the watch back in my possession working just fine.

i used to put it in a winder but, after my experience, I am very reluctant to use a winder - i do not want this incident to repeat (even tho' the repair is free for the warranty period).

Ok, so i'm hearing from 3 people (which includes a watch manuf) that i should not use a winder for this movement....


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I don't get watch winders period. Why have the watch spin for no reason. It takes few seconds to get it going and set time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





TheBearded said:


> If the watch isn't a perpetual calendar/moon phase I see no point in putting it on a winder.
> 
> If one of my Miyota powered watches is dead, I'll give it a lil shake plus 5-10 winds, set the time and go. ETA/Sellita powered I'll do the same, but keep the hand winds to <5.


thanks to both of you for your replies....


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

bombaywalla said:


> Ok, so i'm hearing from 3 people (which includes a watch manuf) that i should not use a winder for this movement....


I don't think there's anything about the 9015 that makes it more or less susceptible to winder caused damage than any other movement. If anything, it should be the opposite, since a Swiss movement nearing the end of its service interval _could_ be damaged from constant winding, whereas the time you can have between 9015 services (assuming you're going to ever service it at all, which I'd argue you should not) is a lot more indefinite. A winder is _definitely_ not going to kill a healthy, new 9015 in a couple of months, so if you want to keep using it, I don't see why you shouldn't.

That being said, I don't use them. My watches sit in a case (or really more _on_ it than in it, usually) and I just handwind them. The Seiko 6R, 9015 and SW-200 I just put about 30 or so winds in, which according to the SDGC009's power reserve indicator is about 60% or so on the mainspring, and I let the rotor do the rest. When I've had ETA-2824 watches, I shuffle start them just in case.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bombaywalla said:


> watch seemed to work ok on the wrist but stopped ticking in the winder. gently shook it, started up again but after a few minutes stopped. Prev day when i was wearing it, i checked accuracy using my phone app - it was -154 spd. really slow.
> watch was under warranty. sent it to repair shop. I was informed that the winding mechanism had failed & debris from the failure clogged up the gears causing the watch to work intermittently. new movement was installed. I have the watch back in my possession working just fine.
> 
> i used to put it in a winder but, after my experience, I am very reluctant to use a winder - i do not want this incident to repeat (even tho' the repair is free for the warranty period).
> ...


Not just that movement. It isn't movement specific. Let me try to explain this as logically as I can...

The movement is lubricated so that all the metal parts work together with a minimum of damage caused by contact and friction. Those lubricants don't "fall off" because of gravity and pool inside the case, so the idea that you're helping them circulate by keeping the watch on a winder is a fallacy. The lubricants don't fall off, they just dry up over time.

On the other hand, when the watch is running, the parts are wearing on each other. The more the watch runs, the more wear and tear the parts experience. The service life of the movement - by which I mean, how long the movement will run well before it needs to be serviced or replaced - is a function of two factors.

The first is how long the lubricants last, on their own, even if the watch is never running. The second is how much wear and tear the parts suffer when it is running. Even if the watch never runs, the lubricants will eventually dry up. But the more the watch runs, the less the longevity of the lubricants matters, because of the wear and tear.

Putting your automatic on a winder is sort of like letting your car run all night, in order to avoid having to turn it on in the morning. You're adding to the wear and tear needlessly.

I understand it may make sense if you own a perpetual calendar, which I understand can be laborious to set once they stop. But for a basic automatic, I think you're better off letting it run down if you're not wearing it regularly enough to keep it going.

NOT AT ALL SARCASTIC - if taking a minute to set your watch and give it a few turns of the crown before putting it on is too much of an interruption of your day, you should consider quartz, or perhaps a solar-powered watch, since a quartz watch will likely need a battery replacement more often than a solar watch will need a solenoid replaced.

The winder didn't have anything to do with your movement failing, nor is that movement any more or less susceptible to harm by keeping it on a winder, compared to any other movement. That would have happened eventually, whether you had it on a winder or not.

Totally as an aside, I've never heard of the auto-winding mechanism on the Miyota 9 simply "failing". What you describe actually reminds me of something we've seen a handful of times - a case clamp screw (a screw which holds the movement & dial assembly and movement spacer in place, within the case) will sometimes come loose, and get lodged under the rotor, or worse, it falls down into the movement, wreaking havoc. Sometimes we can salvage the movement, but sometimes not.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Pardon me while I think out loud for a moment.
> 
> [WoT]
> 
> ...How much is future support from a brand worth? How do you value a track-record? What really separates those brands with a shot at survival from those which are as good as dead? At a certain point, do people view every watch purchased from any brand that doesn't seem virtually guaranteed to stand the test of time as a gamble?


There's a perennial question asked around here to the effect of, will microbrands survive. The short answer is, yes. But the longer answer is that brands will for the most part come and go, while the concept remains popular.

Doc has said it in the past and I recognize it as true -- too many microbrands are chasing the bottom dollar. And really, it's no wonder -- it's what people claim to want. Value for money. So a brand puts out a $300 watch with decent design and it's no shocker when they sell out runs within days, if not hours or minutes. Then the inevitable complaints about manufactured scarcity, and why didn't you make more, and when will the next run be???

But to what end? In chasing the "march to zero," value for money spec-hunters, does it make a brand owner enough to reinvest in the brand? Enough to pay themself? Enough to make it worth their while and keep their interest in the face of OCD watch collectors and other unreasonable customers...?

So the answer to which microbrands will survive, to me, is usually: the ones who are charging enough to grow their brands and manufacturing capital.

If longevity of a brand you purchase is at all important, pick one which is charging a reasonable amount for watches, not the bottom-dollar dwellers. Personally, doesn't really matter to me -- happy to buy the deal on models from defunct or soon to be defunct brands. For the most part, the mechanics will be such that things can be fixed, if need be. And if not? If I can't find a proprietary part? Well, I didn't pay too much to the point that it really, really hurts, so I'll accept the loss. Cosmetic damage = character...

I don't buy a watch for the warranty. I buy for the design and function within my own aesthetic and preferential parameters. I'll take a chance on a cheap microbrand who I doubt will be around in 2-5 years; I'll pay a bit more for a brand which has a track record and a decent chance of becoming the next Christopher Ward, or Damasko and the like.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> But now, after doing this 7 years, and seeing all the failures, it's hard to get upset by the generalization, much less argue that those people are "wrong". The fact is, they're mostly right. The brand which successfully launches and makes it past the 5 year mark is the exception, not the rule, sadly.


Seven years is a good record track record for a small business. Out of curiosity, do you consider NTH Watches something you'll do indefinitely or pass on/sell to someone else?



> Leaving a dinner I organized in Hong Kong in 2018, where more than 30 microbrand owners were in attendance, I asked a retail store owner also in attendance for his thoughts on the evening. He said, "I saw lots of _products_, but very few _brands_."


If there is a book of marketing wisdom, this story should be in it.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> I don't think there's anything about the 9015 that makes it more or less susceptible to winder caused damage than any other movement. If anything, it should be the opposite, since a Swiss movement nearing the end of its service interval _could_ be damaged from constant winding, whereas the time you can have between 9015 services (assuming you're going to ever service it at all, which I'd argue you should not) is a lot more indefinite. A winder is _definitely_ not going to kill a healthy, new 9015 in a couple of months, so if you want to keep using it, I don't see why you shouldn't.
> 
> That being said, I don't use them. My watches sit in a case (or really more _on_ it than in it, usually) and I just handwind them. The Seiko 6R, 9015 and SW-200 I just put about 30 or so winds in, which according to the SDGC009's power reserve indicator is about 60% or so on the mainspring, and I let the rotor do the rest. When I've had ETA-2824 watches, I shuffle start them just in case.





docvail said:


> Not just that movement. It isn't movement specific. Let me try to explain this as logically as I can...
> 
> The movement is lubricated so that all the metal parts work together with a minimum of damage caused by contact and friction. Those lubricants don't "fall off" because of gravity and pool inside the case, so the idea that you're helping them circulate by keeping the watch on a winder is a fallacy. The lubricants don't fall off, they just dry up over time.
> 
> ...


Davekaye90, docvail: thanks for your replies & details. good insight. 
yeah, I too was wondering how a winder could break a Miyota 9xxx movement? Good to know that it was an irrational thought - the failure had more to do with a manuf defect than anything else.

i will do as many of you are suggesting - gently shake watch, wind 5-10 times, set time & wear it.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Nice review of the Amphion Vintage Gilt and the Oberon II, with some nice pics - https://watchwatcha.com/2020/06/17/gilty-pleasures-going-deep-with-the-h-word-and-nth-watches/


Oberon 2 is hard to portray properly on the pics.
This guy nailed it. 
Most pictures make the dial look empty due to skinny hands and stick indexes but in person it works great. 
Its my favorite sub model. 
I am a big fan of vintage Rolex subs and the Oberon hits the spot while maintaining unique look that wont offend homage mob either. Not that I care just saying.










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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

docvail said:


> NOT AT ALL SARCASTIC - if taking a minute to set your watch and give it a few turns of the crown before putting it on is too much of an interruption of your day, you should consider quartz, or perhaps a solar-powered watch, since a quartz watch will likely need a battery replacement more often than a solar watch will need a solenoid replaced.


A thought, not mine, but a propos in this instance...

_"Taking a moment to wind my watch means giving myself twenty seconds of the day to create a sense of purpose as to how I'm going to use my time - to ask myself: Am I going to live today with intention?"_
...from an essay by Hamilton Powell in A Man & His Watch.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> No joking around - any chance of a magnetic field in there? Might want to check the timekeeping now, and if it's running really fast, have it demagnetized.


I've got a degausser, and no. That was at the time being worked on by me to be installed into one of the refuge chambers we build. So no power. If it was powered up, the first issue would be me potentially spot welding the watch in place by causing a dead short setting it on those fuses.

But it was a 5kva transformer, 480v in to 120/240v out. So yeah, powered up, it very well might magnetize a watch.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

docvail said:


> ...... How much is future support from a brand worth? At a certain point, do people view every watch purchased from any brand that doesn't seem virtually guaranteed to stand the test of time as a gamble?
> 
> (All the above being more or less rhetorical questions I posed to myself, but since I'm exposing my thoughts, y'all may feel free to answer any, all, or none, as you see fit.)


I personally club the above 2 questions. If i buy a watch from a company & I need service other than the movement then i need that watch company to be around - I might need a sapphire crystal or a crown or a bezel assembly or bezel insert, etc. These are specific to the company; seldom does another company's hardware fit correctly/aesthetically. Movement can be serviced at any reasonable repair shop & spare parts can be obtained by said repair shop; that's not an issue generally.



docvail said:


> How do you value a track-record?


This is a hard one as it has a "soft" factor to it as opposed to putting some "hard" numbers & quantifying it like an equation.
You have to look at the "Idea" - why did they start this watch company when there are so many other micros around? How does their product distinguish itself from the competition?
You have to look at the "Team" - who's on the team & what is their depth of knowledge in the field of watch making? If the Team knows their chops, they will have a good feel for containing costs & delivering new products at reasonable intervals. As opposed to 1-2 brand new products at start-up & then nothing for 1-2 years. 
Also, go back and look at product launches on a time-scale - new product every 6 months? every year?
Related to the Idea concept, look at the Market Opportunity - if the Idea is good then it will target a certain unfulfilled need in the watch market that nobody else is catering to. That entire market is that company's to lose.
If the Team recognizes this, it will also recognize that they have taught the competition that such an unfulfilled need exists & the competition will want in too. So, the Team has to be good to be 1st in that marketplace to deliver their product fulfulling their "Idea".
Look for "Product IP" - one good example is Damasko. Lots of innovation on a "tired" old 2824-2 design from ETA. But they found places to innovate & make the watch inherently more accurate & service-free. That attracts customers - "man, I can wear my Damasko & go 10 years between servicing. I love it! I'm going to buy another." In a similar vein George Daniels' Co-axial movement.
Look at the "Competition" - how quickly did the "Team" allow the "Competition" get wind of that market space & catch up? If it's swift, you can bet that the watch company will struggle for profits pretty soon & will start faltering. If the "Competition" catches on, but the "Team" has a radar-lock on them then, the "Team" will ensure their product is 1st to market offering continuous improvements each time. 
One good example I have experienced personally - Christopher Ward. You can buy a COSC-certified chronometer diver, 1000m WR, all-Titanium case + bracelet with day & date, saphhire bezel insert for less than $1700. COSC certificate is shipped with the watch to the customer. Show me another watch in the price range that will give me all the above features. Here the "Team" sees the $1K-$2K market very clearly & is providing the most for your money. It looks like they will survive the watch wars....
Actually, there is a watch company - Ocean7. For $899 you can get a COSC-certified LM-5. These days it's an even better deal with 25% Covid-19 discount.



docvail said:


> What really separates those brands with a shot at survival from those which are as good as dead?


For me it's related to my above answer. I look at the Team & how the Team views the Competition. How is the Team outwitting the Competition & bringing innovative product to market in a timely fashion? 
Bringing a me-too product will only result in scraps & it's hard to survive like this. That watch company needs to lead that market segment to survive, thrive. 
Yet another thing to look at is does the Team have a handle on their supply chain? 
Covid-19 times are a prime example to show this. If the Team was caught flat-footed, no product is going ship for a long time - famine! The more local your production can be, the better control you can have. And, a great side benefit - you employ the local people who love you for it. Local could be your city or your State or your country or a location where laws are similar so you don't have to fight governments (who have a totally different agenda).

ok, i've babbled enough....
hope it's not gibberish!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> Seven years is a good record track record for a small business. Out of curiosity, do you consider NTH Watches something you'll do indefinitely or pass on/sell to someone else?


I could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

Actually, the odds are slim. I barely leave the house, and my exposure to bus traffic is pretty minimal.

The point is, I don't think too far ahead, too often.

It's not that the business is or isn't for sale. I'm not looking to sell it, but I'd entertain offers. I have some idea of what it's worth if I just called up a business broker and told him to find a buyer. I figure it's worth a bit more than that to a strategic buyer. But I'd need a lot more than anyone would pay to simply retire and ride off into the sunset, never to work again.

Even the low-end of the range would be enough to buy me some time to figure out what I want to do next. The problem is, I'd have to figure out what to do next, and I really know what I'd want to do. The last time I thought about it, the first thing I came up with was, "start another watch brand", which doesn't speak well of my creativity, nor does it help support the idea of selling.

I know enough about the process to know it's a pain in the balls if you don't end up with a deal you like. What's the point if you're just going to end up doing the same thing again?

My older son just graduated high school. Neither son has shown much interest in the business yet. For now, I'm just trying to figure out what I'm doing with the business for the next 6-12 months - which models to develop and produce, how to grow the business, etc. No point in trying to figure out my end-game yet. Maybe it grows large enough for some big company to want to buy it. Maybe I bring one or both sons in, and train my successor. Maybe I work until I keel over, face down on the laptop.

Here and there, I've had some ideas for other ways I might like to spend my time. At first blush, they all have their appeal. But more often than not, I foresee the frustrations involved, and realizing I'd just be trading this daily grind for that daily grind. I'd receive money for my business, but in the process I'd be giving up a business which has already "gotten past the hump", in order to start a new one that still has its hump ahead.

For now, I think you're stuck with me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Oberon 2 is hard to portray properly on the pics.
> This guy nailed it.
> Most pictures make the dial look empty due to skinny hands and stick indexes but in person it works great.
> Its my favorite sub model.
> ...


Shane is a very good photographer, no doubt. And yes, it can be difficult to capture all the little details of a watch like the Oberon in photos.

The Oberon is one of my personal least-favorites, but I learned not to limit what we produce to just things I personally like or love.

The "homage" thing with some models can be weird, and the Oberon is a good example.

At a glance, it screams "Rolex Homage", and most people who are familiar with the history of the Submariner know there were some versions with that 3-6-9 Explorer type dial, from the 6200's in the mid-50's to the 5513 in the early 60's. But none of them ever had the waffle-texture dial, or pencil hands. I don't think any of them ever had a line of red text on the dial. And I think it was extremely rare to see one with the red triangle on the bezel. The only one I've seen with that red triangle didn't have the first 15 minutes demarcated.

Just like we've done with all the NTH Subs, we pulled together a lot of different things from different places to come up with the Oberon, so it's not a 1:1 reproduction of anything, and yet it still seems to be among the more obvious "homages" within the NTH Subs range. Everyone who knows the ref. 6536 sees the Oberon as an homage to the "Bond" Sub, which it is, but it's less on-the-nose than most others, I think.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Shane is a very good photographer, no doubt. And yes, it can be difficult to capture all the little details of a watch like the Oberon in photos.
> 
> The Oberon is one of my personal least-favorites, but I learned not to limit what produce to just things I personally like or love.
> 
> ...


Yeah but not a lot of people know about it. Plus you take away the mercedes style hands and you are golden. So its not that obvious actually. Hate mercedes style hands btw.

Some pics from the web.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Yeah but not a lot of people know about it. Plus you take away the mercedes style hands and you are golden. So its not that obvious actually. Hate mercedes style hands btw.
> 
> Some pics from the web.


It seems I was wrong about the red text.

The Merc hands truly are the biggest sticking point, I think, though the snowflake hands also seem to be just as closely associated with Tudor.

Using pencil hands on the Oberon II was a good move, I think, to help differentiate it more, and also just avoid some of the hate people have for those hands.

I don't personally like pencil hands, either, but they seemed the most appropriate match for the combination of 6204-inspired case and Explorer dial, as opposed to sword hands, snowflakes, or something else entirely. Those hands help to tie the Oberon back to the 6204's, and the old Tudor 7923 from the same era, which of course inspired the Tudor "Black Bay One", which inspired the Carolina we made for the BSHT guys, which of course led to the Barracuda Vintage Black.

I don't know if it all makes sense to everyone else, but it makes sense to me, to try to maintain some direct connection to the sources of inspiration, but also maintain some cohesion among NTH Subs' models.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Is the lume on those the same color? For some reason, the one on the bottom looks like a better match with the colors on the watch face. Otherwise, I would go for the one on the top -- less is more, in this case.


Both have C3 so it is a match all round for bezels, dial and hands. Ordinarily I am a fan of the Milsub bezel as I like the look and the extra lime, but I think I will give it some time on wrist to see how I get on with it as-is. Expect more pictures soon.

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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Hate mercedes style hands btw.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

RotorRonin said:


>


I'm not a fan of them either. For better or worse, they are so associated with Rolex that anything else that uses them always feels a bit like they are borrowing from Rolex. It's the "Simpsons did it" but for watches. Much worse than Merc hands though for me are enormous counter-weights for hour or minute hands, or worst of all, when the minute hand has a massive counter weight, and the hour has none. Emperor Tuna is probably the worst at this. Just hideous hands on that thing.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> Shane is a very good photographer, no doubt. And yes, it can be difficult to capture all the little details of a watch like the Oberon in photos.
> 
> The Oberon is one of my personal least-favorites, but I learned not to limit what we produce to just things I personally like or love.
> 
> ...


That's funny, because the Oberon II is the watch you offer that I like the most. Simple, but sophisticated. Recognizable retro cues, but updated and not derivative of a common model. The dial design is sparse, which makes the hands and markers stand out, but it isn't visually boring because of the waffle dial. If the dial was glossier I think it would be perfect.

Some of your watch dials are (for me) too busy, like the Tikuna, or have one feature I just don't like, such as cathedral hands on the Bahia. I think your best designs follow similar design guidelines as the Oberon - Vanguard, Skipjack, Amphion, etc.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Keep those mercedes coming. More for me!

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> That's funny, because the Oberon II is the watch you offer that I like the most. Simple, but sophisticated. Recognizable retro cues, but updated and not derivative of a common model. The dial design is sparse, which makes the hands and markers stand out, but it isn't visually boring because of the waffle dial. If the dial was glossier I think it would be perfect.
> 
> Some of your watch dials are (for me) too busy, like the Tikuna, or have one feature I just don't like, such as cathedral hands on the Bahia. I think your best designs follow similar design guidelines as the Oberon - Vanguard, Skipjack, Amphion, etc.


I think I have a tendency towards jamming more into a design, rather than less. I think I like visual density in design.

Oddly, the Subs models with snowflake hands seem to be the best-sellers, for whatever that's worth. I know a lot of guys hate snowflakes. I used to not like them, but they grew on me, so now my collection includes two each of the Barracuda and the Nacken.

For all the debate surrounding homages, my observation is that most watch geeks tend to have conservative tastes, and homages are a "safe" choice in many ways, since the design cues have already been vetted over time.

I think the Tikuna and Vanguard are both solid designs, in and of themselves, but since they're more original, they don't benefit from being the "poor man's" version of anything else.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

I think @Bombwayalla put it best



bombaywalla said:


> You have to look at the "Idea" - why did they start this watch company when there are so many other micros around? How does their product distinguish itself from the competition?


But big picture, I never really looked at a brands track record as a deciding factor. But then, I also never backed a Kickstarter, where this might be more relevant. Long story short, I buy what I like, and if it turns out it's a dud, or the brand goes out of business it's not the end of the world. But what I do look at before making a decision is objective reviews from sources that I have reasonable faith in that they are not purchased by the brand, with actual pictures and not just renders.

I don't think that the subs share much of a DNA. Sure they all have the same case, but that's about it. There is such a huge variety in configs that there is something for everybody. The more homage-y pieces still bring something new to the table and so they stand out from the crowd. Actually, by virtue of the no crown guard case alone they are different from 99% of sub homages out there. But by 'identity', I would expect the core features of the dial and hands to be largely the same, and maybe have some variations in dial or accent colour. Kinda like the Devil Rays and Tropics, which I think have a much more 'coherent' design across the different pieces. But that also means that there are a lot more Subs that I would consider purchasing. They are similar but different enough that I can justify having multiple in the collection.

What I find the most attractive is if a design pulls together queues and ideas from different sources and manages to combine them in a balanced way. I've read lots of comments about the Catalina some time ago with people calling it a 'confused' or 'messy' design, but I like the visual balance, the way the empty space is used. It's not too busy nor too sparse. Or the red line of text or red triangle on the bezel on the more vintage inspired subs. Frankly, I will never be able to afford the real red line sub deal, so if I find a well put together homage I don't have a problem with it. The only homage I will avoid is the one of a watch that is realistically attainable for me. Not to spoil the chase for the real deal.

The Oberon II unfortunately is not my cup of tea, something is just a little off balance for me (I think the triangle at the 12 is too big / wide at the base maybe?) but the Tikuna really grew on me recently. But with the NTH nr 4 waiting to be processed by customs right now, that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

Anyways, enough semi coherent ramblings, here is a picture of a watch


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

double post strikes. Damn those rolexes a page or so back are pretty.


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

The sun's setting here in the UK so that rich lume is starting to pop.









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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I think this is a question of "can you?" vs. "should you?" A very pretty watch like pretty much all of the D65 based models, and props to Oris for making the first almost completely bronze bracelet. I wouldn't want that on my wrist, though, certainly not on a hot day.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a semi-related note (semi-related to the stuff about microbrands and brands which disappear)...

I stopped into my local watchmaker's shop today. I recently inherited more vintage watch-stuff I don't really want, and of course, none of it works. I just wanted his opinion on what it's all worth, just to see if it makes sense to fix any of it.

As it happens, he saw my post on FB about the NTH Sub with the mashed case-tube threads, and asked me if we had replacement tubes. I could get them, I think, but I'm not sure what the point would be, since replacing one seems like it would be a nearly impossible task. It would be easier, and likely cheaper (cheaper than paying a watchmaker to remove/replace the case tube) to just replace the whole case.

The vintage stuff I took to show him is worth nothing, and so, no, it makes no sense to spend a few hundred dollars to fix any of it.

Between that, and the talk about the case tubes, we got into a discussion of the various situations he's been in, trying to explain to someone why he's asking $300-$400 to service a vintage Seiko Pogue, or the like, something which you can buy on eBay for under $600 until a few years ago, as well as a hypothetical situation involving a guy with a ~$500 microbrand watch possibly needing to replace the case in 5-10 years.

The gist of it all was - how do you get people to understand why a watchmaker will charge at least a few hundred dollars to do anything, regardless of how much the watch costs, or may be worth?

I wasn't trying to one-up him, but there was a guy who contacted us recently about getting help with his Riccardo, the automatic chronograph we produced in 2013, with a Chinese-made Sea-Gull movement.

It's been 7 years since we made that watch. I don't know anyone who will work on them, nor do I know where you can source a reliable movement to drop in, and to make things worse, if you pull the little sub-dial hands off, they can't be re-used, so you'd need to source new hands somewhere, or do all the work without removing the hands or dial, which just complicates things.

A new movement, assuming you can source one, is likely going to be $200, and the odds of getting a bad one on eBay seem like 50-50. Getting a watchmaker to service one is probably $400. But the guy only paid $450 when he pre-ordered the watch.

Without wanting to sound like stuck-up jerks for whom money is no object (neither of us is that much of a jerk or that well off), we both agreed that if you can get 5-10 years out of a ~$500 watch, you got your money's worth, and it's kind of pointless to worry about fixing it if and when something needs fixed.

---

And, as is always the case when I go in there, he had something quirky to show me...

It was a 2006 Omega Seamaster chrono/apnea breath timer. As the chrono runs, the little circles on the dial gradually go from silver to red, sort of like a yacht race timer.

Kinda cool, but also kinda stupidly niche, and it was chunky as hell. He's not sure he wants to work on it, and is likely going to tell the guy to send it back to Omega. Let it be their problem.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> On a semi-related note (semi-related to the stuff about microbrands and brands which disappear)...
> 
> I stopped into my local watchmaker's shop today. I recently inherited more vintage watch-stuff I don't really want, and of course, none of it works. I just wanted his opinion on what it's all worth, just to see if it makes sense to fix any of it.
> 
> ...


Interesting "apnea" watch. Much more interesting than my apnea.

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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Testing the waters with my Barracuda today.










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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> .


Great shot

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Thresher.

Now in blue...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Mercs every day and twice on Sunday.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Without wanting to sound like stuck-up jerks for whom money is no object (neither of us is that much of a jerk or that well off), we both agreed that if you can get 5-10 years out of a ~$500 watch, you got your money's worth, and it's kind of pointless to worry about fixing it if and when something needs fixed.


This is why I don't really understand these watches. A certain microbrand's Seagull chrono with a salmon dial now costs stupid money, for something that presumably will run for a few years and then develop a problem nobody will want to deal with. Even if you have a 50 year old Speedmaster with a 321 in it, Omega or somebody who works on them presumably can keep it running almost indefinitely. This watch though, which people are apparently paying $2K+ for, is basically a time bomb (no pun intended) with a pretty short window before it becomes a paperweight.

Replacement movements for 7750 based watches are at least readily available, and are roughly the same price as a full service would be. I still don't like the idea of spending $500 to keep a sub $1K autochrono running after 5 years or so, but at least it can be done. The Seagull just seems to be "it works until it doesn't." Where affordable watches make the most sense is when they use movements like the NH35 or 9015, where you get the benefit of an automatic with running costs barely higher than regular quartz battery changes would be. "Affordable" autochronos are only cheap to buy.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I don't think many people buying these "hot" watches (baltic x w&w salmon, or say the hodinkee alpinist, or, yes, the riccardo back then) really expect (or, more precisely, consider) the long-term viability of these watches... 
Tbh, in a realistic long term scenario, buying anything beyond a threehander seems like a very unwise decision...

Though as doc's other recent thread shows, it's not like the movements are the only things causing issues - clearly, gaskets, crowns, bezels, other small parts can become problematic, and maybe a fix is possible, maybe not.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> This is why I don't really understand these watches. A certain microbrand's Seagull chrono with a salmon dial now costs stupid money, for something that presumably will run for a few years and then develop a problem nobody will want to deal with. Even if you have a 50 year old Speedmaster with a 321 in it, Omega or somebody who works on them presumably can keep it running almost indefinitely. This watch though, which people are apparently paying $2K+ for, is basically a time bomb (no pun intended) with a pretty short window before it becomes a paperweight.
> 
> Replacement movements for 7750 based watches are at least readily available, and are roughly the same price as a full service would be. I still don't like the idea of spending $500 to keep a sub $1K autochrono running after 5 years or so, but at least it can be done. The Seagull just seems to be "it works until it doesn't." Where affordable watches make the most sense is when they use movements like the NH35 or 9015, where you get the benefit of an automatic with running costs barely higher than regular quartz battery changes would be. "Affordable" autochronos are only cheap to buy.


Replacement watches with seagull chrono movements are also readily available for under $500. Heck, might as well buy the eponymous sea-gull military watch as a movement donor from AliX for around $200ish. So... kinda the same thing as getting a donor 7750, no?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> This is why I don't really understand these watches. A certain microbrand's Seagull chrono with a salmon dial now costs stupid money, for something that presumably will run for a few years and then develop a problem nobody will want to deal with. Even if you have a 50 year old Speedmaster with a 321 in it, Omega or somebody who works on them presumably can keep it running almost indefinitely. This watch though, which people are apparently paying $2K+ for, is basically a time bomb (no pun intended) with a pretty short window before it becomes a paperweight.
> 
> Replacement movements for 7750 based watches are at least readily available, and are roughly the same price as a full service would be. I still don't like the idea of spending $500 to keep a sub $1K autochrono running after 5 years or so, but at least it can be done. The Seagull just seems to be "it works until it doesn't." Where affordable watches make the most sense is when they use movements like the NH35 or 9015, where you get the benefit of an automatic with running costs barely higher than regular quartz battery changes would be. "Affordable" autochronos are only cheap to buy.


You may or may not be able to keep your 50 year old Speedy running indefinitely. Eventually, parts may become so scarce or expensive to fabricate that keeping it running may not be possible, much less affordable.

You may or may not have seen my post about it. My local watchmaker had to turn away a guy with a once-very-valuable vintage Rolex Explorer. The guy let some ham-fisted half-wit work on it. The watch was ruined in the process, and rendered worthless. Rolex no longer supplies parts for that model.

The same watchmaker has had my great-grandfather's pocket watch since Christmas (last year, or the year before, I forget which). All it needs is a new balance staff. But he can't find one, and fabricating one is going to be stupid-expensive.

For me, most things can be reduced down to math problems. A $500 Seagull ST19 chrono doesn't make a whole lot more or less sense than a $2,000 chrono with a Valjoux 7750.

The Sea-gull might run 5-7 years before it dies. Maybe longer, maybe less. The v.7750 will need a $400-$500 service every 5-7 years. For about the same cost as servicing the Valjoux every 5-7 years, you could just buy a new Sea-gull chrono, at about the same frequency.

Actually, that probably makes more sense than spending the bigger amount of money up front to buy the 7750 in the first place.

Does it make sense to spend $500 on a chrono every 5-7 years? What difference does it make if it's a Sea-gull or a 7750? It's the same $500, and the same 5-7 years, no?

Personally, I hate the idea of having any watch serviced, at any cost. That's why I like the 3-hand movements from Seiko and Miyota. Let 'em run until they die, then drop a new movement in, or just throw the watch away.

How long will that be? I dunno. The 9015 came out in 2010. If they were going to die after 10 years, I think we'd be hearing about it by now. The NH35 has been around at least 6-7 years, and I think it's just an evolution of the NH25. How long do they last? Seems like their service life is measured in decades, rather than years.

If you gotta buy a Chinese chrono, just buy the seller. I have no idea what any other brands are doing to minimize risk for their customers, with the exception of Hong Kong Ed (WUS user HKed), who works with the guys at EMG. I trust Ed to do a lot of pre-sale testing, and to facilitate with any post-sale support needs.

I've read that the guy from Perpetual is doing a lot of movement work before he sells his ST19 chronos, too, so there's that, for whatever it's worth.

Buy from any other brand, and like my old man says, you pays your money, and you takes your chances.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> I don't think many people buying these "hot" watches (baltic x w&w salmon, or say the hodinkee alpinist, or, yes, the riccardo back then) really expect (or, more precisely, consider) the long-term viability of these watches...
> Tbh, in a realistic long term scenario, buying anything beyond a threehander seems like a very unwise decision...
> 
> Though as doc's other recent thread shows, it's not like the movements are the only things causing issues - clearly, gaskets, crowns, bezels, other small parts can become problematic, and maybe a fix is possible, maybe not.


Yeah that's pretty much how I feel about it. I have a silly amount of money invested into my SKX, and nearly as much into my Samurai mod, but every single bit save for the dials are easily replaced. My 6R21 watches are only marginally more difficult, because there's no easily available commercial version of that movement as far as I'm aware. Not an uncommon movement though, and easily serviceable by Seiko if for whatever reason my watchmaker can't figure out the keyless works issue that one of mine has.

I understand why Oris gets picked on for their un-adjusted Sellitas, but I put that in the + column, makes them much cheaper and easier to live with than something like a Blackbay would be.

That mangled crown tube isn't something I'd expect to see from normal wear-and-tear. The crowns on the early Zodiac SSW reissues though were a huge PITA to screw back down, so I could definitely see how they could get cross-threaded if you weren't careful.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Replacement watches with seagull chrono movements are also readily available for under $500. Heck, might as well buy the eponymous sea-gull military watch as a movement donor from AliX for around $200ish. So... kinda the same thing as getting a donor 7750, no?


Well...maybe, maybe not.

If you buy a movement online, from a parts supplier, or on eBay, odds are that there's no warranty on it. If you get a dud, you're probably SOL.

Maybe if you're a certified watchmaker, and you've been buying from a parts supplier for years, you'll get the benefit of the doubt, but otherwise, the movement was fine when they shipped it to you, as far as they know, or it wasn't, and it's your word against theirs.

But I've never seen any of those parts supply houses selling ST19's. I've only seen them on eBay. I'm looking at a "new" ST1901 on eBay now, for $85. That's actually not too bad, I think.

Based on my experience with the ST19, and what I've heard from HK Ed, and from my vendors, my best guess is the odds of a brand getting a good ST19 are 50%-70%. Or, to put it another way, the defect rate could be 30%-50%. I don't like those odds, personally.

With the 7750, even though they're $400 from a parts supply house, at least your odds of getting a defective unit are much lower. What are the odds? I have no idea. I'd say they're pretty low, if you're buying a movement from a legit parts supplier, versus taking your chances on eBay, where you could be buying a fake, for all anyone knows.

I dunno, but for me, just buying a chrono movement to drop into an existing watch just doesn't make much sense. I'd rather just spend enough to get a new watch. Like you said, you can get those 1963 Chinese Air Force repros for about $200. If you want a little more certainty, you can buy one from Long Island Watch for $329. I know Marc stands by what he sells.

Compare that to spending $85-$110 to buy a movement online, with 50-50 odds of getting a dud, then paying $100 to swap it in place of your old movement. For not much more money, and maybe less (if you end up buying more than one movement, because the first was a dud), you could just get a new watch, and be done with it.

Does it make more sense to replace a 7750? I dunno. A service will run you $400-$500. A new movement will cost $400, and a watchmaker will charge you $100 to drop it in, if you can find a watchmaker who'll agree to do a movement swap for you, using a movement you bought yourself.

But either of those makes more sense than just tossing out the watch, if it cost you much more than that.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Myeah.

All this really makes me wonder, just why are people so willing to buy chronographs anyway? As a function, it's borderline useless (and can essentially be replaced by just using the dive bezel), the fragility goes way up, the WR usually is compromised, the watch is inevitably way too thick...

Like, honestly. Who needs a chronograph? It's objectively worse in all aspects.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You may or may not be able to keep your 50 year old Speedy running indefinitely. Eventually, parts may become so scarce or expensive to fabricate that keeping it running may not be possible, much less affordable.
> 
> For me, most things can be reduced down to math problems. A $500 Seagull ST19 chrono doesn't make a whole lot more or less sense than a $2,000 chrono with a Valjoux 7750.
> 
> ...


Perhaps. I just find it interesting that a rocket age Omega has a better chance of continued use than a Seagull that's less than a decade old. Also, you're not always going to have that huge price advantage with the Seagull. A Tissot V8 autochrono from Joma is under $400. Not a 7750, some other ETA that I don't know much about. But they're there. To me, $100 a year to have any chronograph is just never going to be worth it. Not when a 5-beat quartz chrono watch can be had for under $400 that I'm not going to have to even think about. Most of them are dumb with the 24-hour register and unreadable minute counter, but some like Zodiac's Grand Rally actually make sense, design wise.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Myeah.
> 
> All this really makes me wonder, just why are people so willing to buy chronographs anyway? As a function, it's borderline useless (and can essentially be replaced by just using the dive bezel), the fragility goes way up, the WR usually is compromised, the watch is inevitably way too thick...
> 
> Like, honestly. Who needs a chronograph? It's objectively worse in all aspects.


No argument here. 99% of the time when I need to time something, it's "put the squash in the oven for 25 minutes." Timing bezel does that perfectly. It takes a half second glance to check the elapsed time. On a chronograph, if it happens to be the time of day when one of the hands is covering the minute register, well..too bad. I guess the watch is completely useless at the one thing it's intended for. If for some reason I need something more accurate than to the minute, my phone has a 1/100 stop watch and can split as many laps as you please.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> No argument here. 99% of the time when I need to time something, it's "put the squash in the oven for 25 minutes." Timing bezel does that perfectly. It takes a half second glance to check the elapsed time. On a chronograph, if it happens to be the time of day when one of the hands is covering the minute register, well..too bad. I guess the watch is completely useless at the one thing it's intended for. If for some reason I need something more accurate than to the minute, my phone has a 1/100 stop watch and can split as many laps as you please.


True that, although nobody really _needs_ a watch these days so the same point is true to some degree for dive bezels. I do like chronos but I agree that that is an irrational like, and that it's entirely based on looks. The comments about the hands covering the register and the borderline useless 24 hour register on Seiko mechaquartz movements are on point. I am in the camp that likes snowflake hands, but whoever was in charge of the blackbay chrono did not think things through to the end. Anyways, it seems the mechaquartz chronos are good value for what they offer so here is one:









Reading the discussion about up front and service cost really put things into a different perspective for me. I never really thought much about it before. If the best option is to chuck out the movement each time a service is up, or worse yet, the whole watch.. I don't know, that just rubs me the wrong way somehow. Replacing the movement I get, but writing off a watch after 5 - 10 years.. I like my stuff, and I spend more than the bare minimum on most things because I value quality and want to support businesses that do too, so I do expect my things to last.



docvail said:


> [...] we both agreed that if you can get 5-10 years out of a ~$500 watch, you got your money's worth, and it's kind of pointless to worry about fixing it if and when something needs fixed.


If you break that down to a math problem, that'll come out to about 15 cents per wear if your watch lasts 5 years and you wear it every day.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Like, honestly. Who needs a chronograph? It's objectively worse in all aspects.


With ya there, bro. I tried a couple chronographs, just because it seems like something WIS do. Didn't stick, not for me, don't need one in my life. And they were quartz...

Having said that, there are actually a couple - Sinn, Tudor - I might pick up if I ever get to a point where I have FU money.

Otherwise, was considering a Poljot with 3133 movement at one point, and of course the ubiquitous Chinese Airforce repro (which Mrs-ish mconlonx likes the looks). But more for the handwind aspect than the chrono function.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Why are you speaking of watches as value propositions?

They’re luxury items bought with disposable income (or, I suppose, a fool parting with his money). 

There are better and worse “value” propositions, but that’s just the same as wondering who’d buy a bottle of Pappy’s when you can get rot gut for 1/200th the price. 

Some dudes have the cash and DGAF. Isn’t that the market you’re discussing?

Seriously, the end game here is just another effort at defining “affordable”. One man’s throwaway micro is another man’s throwaway AliX is another man’s beater rolex. 


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Quartz chronographs for me. 

Maaaaaybe even solar chronos...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Why are you speaking of watches as value propositions?
> 
> They're luxury items bought with disposable income (or, I suppose, a fool parting with his money).
> 
> ...


I think the roots of the discussion trace back to the story about the guy who asked if our bezels will fit his defunct micro. You've more or less hit the nail on the head, though, by broadly defining the ongoing debate among enthusiasts.

Whereas some guys look at buying micros as a waste of money, and limit themselves to brands which are both more mainstream and more expensive, because they think those purchases will stand the test of time better, I personally disagree, and think micros offer a great value proposition.

I in turn think that buying those cheap-as-chips AliX watches is a waste of money, and limit myself to more expensive (yet still "affordable", at least to me) watches, because I think they'll stand the test of time better.

But, on a long enough timeline, all of these watches become unrepairable relics, like my great-grandfather's pocket watch. No matter what anyone spends, all we're doing, apparently, is front-loading our costs of ownership. A $200 watch that lasts 5 years is mathematically no better or worse than a $600 watch that lasts 15, or a $1800 watch that lasts 45.

And, I suppose, unfortunately, none of us really knows which $200 AliX, $600 micro, or $1800 mainstream brand will end up becoming junk sooner than expected.

Therefore, it's up to each of us to dial in our own preferences and comfort zone.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

On my end, it's not like I would spend any more, just for a name brand, so both microbrands and Chinese factory watches offer better VFM. 

What do we think an NTH-quality watch with "Seiko" on the dial would run us? I bet close to, or north of, $1k. 

King Turtle over on Long Island Watch is listed at $625. The Islander version of the turtle is $299, and I can get a Chinese factory clone for less than $200. Is paying more for a Seiko going to do anything for me in the long run? Other than pay too much for service at the only US Seiko service center...?

FWIW, I've bought 70s vintage Seikos which ran... OK-ish. I mean, def not within modern spec, at +/- more than 30spd (but less than 60...), and probably desperately needed lubrication service. But on a 45-ish year old watch? And considering modern movements are probably made even better (guess, not fact)? It would not surprise me if -- outside of damage and cosmetics -- microbrand watches using Japanese movements, are still going strong in two decades, with zero service. Especially among the WIS crowd, where most watches do not see daily wear.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

It all sounds good if you can just buy 1 watch and wear it for 10-15 years then throw it away and buy another one. 
No one that hangs around here daily is going to do that. 
You ll probably end up buying 5 x $500 watches so in 10 years, if you have to throw all of them away you r still out same money than if you went with the 1 watch from a brand thats been around a while, same money, that has a higher chance of being repairable.
Also if owning a watch for longer period of time, you do get attached to it so you d want to repair it.

However, I cant see why someone would throw away NTH sub for example in 10 years when all it can break is the movement. 
Ok maybe you strip the crown tube but you should be able to repair it for $200 with movement swap. 

This leads me to, why cant anyone in microbrand world make a diver looking watch with a push pull crown? No one dives with these anyway. 

I don’t re-read my posts and I hate writing in general so hopefully I made some sense


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

I may be way off here, but if suspect most micros are purchased by WIS/enthusiasts. Said enthusiasts likely assume that the watch they researchesmd for hours will be "the one" or "part of the collection" and desire that, since they spent so much time researching it, they'd like it to last forever, and therefore assume they should be able to fix it indefinitely. Which just isn't reality. 

Just like all the Rolex enthusiasts that talk about how Rolex is an investment and only increases in value and ignore the cost of inflation and maintenance, I suspect no one wants to confront the uncomfortable truth that the $X,000 they plunked down for a watch could, one day, truly be worth $0 because it isn't repairable and they would need to plunk down another $X,000 for a new one, which they can't afford, or, perhaps worse, confront the idea that a watch they've grown close to as an heirloom or whatever will one day be scrap and can't be replaced or fixed.

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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

It all comes down to "dollars per hour." How much am I spending for something and then how long might it last, based on the ability to keep it running. In a way, the aliX stuff makes sense, because at $20, if it lasts a year, I'm ahead. In a similar vein, Rolex can make some sense, because they have a track record of being repairable. Agree or disagree, that is some of the basis for the advocates of both ends of the WUS spectrum.

I like it in the middle, particularly with the Miyota movement. But there's no real "right answer", and the actual "answer" won't be known until years have passed and we can see what still works and what does not. Automobiles make a good comparison, in that some older ones are still running and can be repaired, but others (both models and brands) are long gone.


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## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> This leads me to, why cant anyone in microbrand world make a diver looking watch with a push pull crown? No one dives with these anyway.


Christopher Ward does, with their C65 line of divers. And they get routinely criticized for it. Just like Seiko getting vilified for the new 5KX line with push-pull crowns.

It's pretty much a given that watch enthusiasts at least insist on screw-down crown for their diver watches, even though it has been stated many times that it is the crown gaskets that insure water resistance, not whether it has a screw-down crown or not.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

That blanket statement can go to watches in general. Service cost are inconsequential to some. Watch collecting is personalized and passionate trying to rationalize costs for most doesn't make sense. Technology is the great equalizer no doubt servicing any watch in the future will likely be possible and decline in cost. I also would imagine that a $50 9015 will last as long as $150 Eta. 

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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> Why are you speaking of watches as value propositions?
> 
> They're luxury items bought with disposable income (or, I suppose, a fool parting with his money).
> 
> ...


Agree

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> It all sounds good if you can just buy 1 watch and wear it for 10-15 years then throw it away and buy another one.
> No one that hangs around here daily is going to do that.
> You ll probably end up buying 5 x $500 watches so in 10 years, if you have to throw all of them away you r still out same money than if you went with the 1 watch from a brand thats been around a while, same money, that has a higher chance of being repairable.
> Also if owning a watch for longer period of time, you do get attached to it so you d want to repair it.
> ...


The "quality over quantity" debate will never end.

I ended up somewhere in the middle. I like SOME variety, but not TOO MUCH. I want to feel like all of my watches need not make any apologies for their lack of quality, so I tend to like stuff over $400, but I struggle to rationalize spending much more than $700 to get better quality, knowing it'll be hard for me to see the difference, much less enjoy it.

I'm happy to own 10-20 pieces in the $500-$700 range. Since none of them get worn that much, I expect they'll all last at least a decade, if not decades, before I can't live with them any more, for whatever reason (assuming their performance falls off, or they break, to be specific).

More likely, I'll gradually sell off the pieces I wear less, and replace them with newer stuff. I do that now, and it's working fine.

I doubt I'll ever simply throw a watch away. More likely I'd give one away, which I've done. I gave Rusty my birth-year Seiko Pogue when I thought it needed a service that was likely to cost more than I'd paid for the watch. The Citizen Nighthawk I bought from him wasn't worth enough for me to go to the trouble of trying to sell it, so I used it for a giveaway.

Bottom line - I don't want to own a larger collection of pieces under $500, nor do I want to have a collection of fewer pieces worth much more than $700. I'm happy not worrying about the costs or logistics of having any of my watches serviced in the future, or "protecting my investment", or thinking about when any of them may die, or if my kids will want any of them.

My collection exists only to make me happy, and it's doing that, quite nicely.

Which goes to HWA's point about dialing in one's own preferences. It's not really a debate that can be settled, much less "won".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lee_K said:


> Christopher Ward does, with their C65 line of divers. And they get routinely criticized for it. Just like Seiko getting vilified for the new 5KX line with push-pull crowns.
> 
> It's pretty much a given that watch enthusiasts at least insist on screw-down crown for their diver watches, even though it has been stated many times that it is the crown gaskets that insure water resistance, not whether it has a screw-down crown or not.


Perfect example of how the WIS market demands things which cost more to buy, and can lead to higher long-term costs of ownership and/or higher frustration.

That said - yes, it's the gaskets that insure WR, and the crown screwing down simply insures it isn't accidentally pulled out while submerged. But, I think there may be some added WR benefit when there are gaskets in the crown assembly, which get compressed when the crown is screwed down, creating a more water-tight seal.

But, truly, it's all academic, if we're talking about watches which will likely never exceed 5 meters of depth, much less 50, or 500, especially when it seems we all accept the idea that the WR ratings are likely conservative, and the cases of most dive-watches are over-engineered.

A push-pull crown is probably quite adequate for 99% of the watches 99% of us buy. And yet, speaking as a manufacturer, I have to consider what the market demands as much, if not more than what I personally think is good for the market.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I have this CW GMT C65 diver, it has a push in crown but a WR of 150m. It's good enough for what i wear this watch for.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

hwa said:


> One man's throwaway micro is another man's throwaway AliX is another man's beater rolex.





docvail said:


> My collection exists only to make me happy, and it's doing that, quite nicely.


That's it.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> True that, although nobody really _needs_ a watch these days so the same point is true to some degree for dive bezels.
> 
> Reading the discussion about up front and service cost really put things into a different perspective for me. I never really thought much about it before. If the best option is to chuck out the movement each time a service is up, or worse yet, the whole watch.. I don't know, that just rubs me the wrong way somehow. Replacing the movement I get, but writing off a watch after 5 - 10 years.. I like my stuff, and I spend more than the bare minimum on most things because I value quality and want to support businesses that do too, so I do expect my things to last.


That's really a question of practicality. The cellphone is in some ways a very modern pocket watch. Wrist watches are a thing because WW1 pilots didn't have the time or likely a free hand for that. When do I "need" a watch? When I don't have the time or a free hand to pull out my cellphone and check it, or I'm in some situation where the cellphone can't go, like swimming. It's very true that I don't "need" anything more than a $10 Casio. I also don't need anything more than a $2200 1992 Toyota Corolla to get around. I don't _want_ the Casio, or the '92 Corolla, and fortunately I'm not in a situation where those are my only options.

I never use the dive bezel for diving, but I do use it all the time for timing whatever thing I need to time. My phone has a perfectly capable countdown timer, but if I'm cooking or something like that, I don't want to have to deal with the phone.

I have no issues with wearing a watch until the movement is past its useful life, and then just swapping in a new one. That's why cheap, readily available Seiko or Miyota movements, or even the SW-200 have so much appeal. I don't like the idea of just tossing any watch. While I end up selling the vast majority of them, some like the SKX I expect to be long term keepers. It has some sentimental value in that it's my first proper automatic (I don't count the absolute POS Stauer I owned for a couple of years in the late '00s) and it's also _my_ SKX, a 1 of 1. I can't just replace it with some off the shelf Turtle of SBDC051.

As I continue to refine exactly what I want from a collection, I'm in a reduction mode right now, and the SDGC017 and Aevig Huldra will be leaving while I think about what to do next. (Probably a Clean Ocean, but I'm not sure yet). I don't expect much interest here in the '017, but if any of ya'll would like to adopt my blue V1 Aevig Huldra, let me know.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I think the roots of the discussion trace back to the story about the guy who asked if our bezels will fit his defunct micro. You've more or less hit the nail on the head, though, by broadly defining the ongoing debate among enthusiasts.
> 
> Whereas some guys look at buying micros as a waste of money, and limit themselves to brands which are both more mainstream and more expensive, because they think those purchases will stand the test of time better, I personally disagree, and think micros offer a great value proposition.
> 
> ...


Seeing as there's a propensity for WIS to flip on a fairly regular basis (OK not all of us) maybe it just does not factor in as subconsciously we're thinking won't be the owner when it goes boom.......


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> That's really a question of practicality. The cellphone is in some ways a very modern pocket watch. Wrist watches are a thing because WW1 pilots didn't have the time or likely a free hand for that. When do I "need" a watch? When I don't have the time or a free hand to pull out my cellphone and check it...


Truth:

I got back into wearing wristwatches about a month after getting my latest phone, a Samsung Galaxy S8, which was just big and bulky enough that I wanted something at hand, rather than checking the phone for time.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Green...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Seeing as there's a propensity for WIS to flip on a fairly regular basis (OK not all of us) maybe it just does not factor in as subconsciously we're thinking won't be the owner when it goes boom.......


We might even go so far as to say that everyone who owns that watch is sharing in the cost over time, by way of depreciation. The $600 watch new might be sold for $100 in 10 years. If each of five owners each takes $100 in deprecation as they sell the watch, none of them feel too much pain, and the last owner isn't likely to feel as if he's been left with the short end of the stick, having only spent $100 for a watch which may only last another 5 years before becoming a paperweight.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Damn










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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> That's really a question of practicality. The cellphone is in some ways a very modern pocket watch. Wrist watches are a thing because WW1 pilots didn't have the time or likely a free hand for that. When do I "need" a watch? When I don't have the time or a free hand to pull out my cellphone and check it, or I'm in some situation where the cellphone can't go, like swimming. It's very true that I don't "need" anything more than a $10 Casio. I also don't need anything more than a $2200 1992 Toyota Corolla to get around. I don't _want_ the Casio, or the '92 Corolla, and fortunately I'm not in a situation where those are my only options.
> 
> I never use the dive bezel for diving, but I do use it all the time for timing whatever thing I need to time. My phone has a perfectly capable countdown timer, but if I'm cooking or something like that, I don't want to have to deal with the phone.
> 
> ...


Totally with you on that, man. Re-reading my last post I maybe sound a tad bit too dismissive. I use my chronos and dive bezel for all kinds of things, mostly cooking, but also to time my commutes, or just to play with them. I could do all of those things with a phone, but I don't want to. I like playing with my bezel, not my stop watch app. And I definitely not in the 'Machine with a heartbeat / Soul' camp either. I just like to build an emotional connection, which is why I am OK with replacing the movement if necessary, but writing off a watch I wore for 10 years would be hard for me.. If I want to keep my micros running until I am of the age to pass them on and have my grand kids worry about them I should probably start stockpiling Miyotas. The car analogy that came up earlier is also fair, inasmuch as when you buy one, you expect that it will cost a certain amount of money in maintenance per year, which can easily add up to the purchase price of the car over a couple of years.

Not really going anywhere with this, just thinking out loud. But maybe there is a case to be made for the more established brands from this perspective. The chance that they will be around for my lifetime is certainly higher. Still, I think there is a sweet spot that many micros sit in between design, specs, and price that I am most comfortable in personally.

Sharing the cost of depreciation also goes the other way. Many vintage watches are rare because many of their brethren have conked out along the way, leaving few desirable examples. So the people who ended up having to write off their watch as a loss contributed to the increase of value of the remaining ones.

Also, green is hot. Also also, I had a closer look at the maxi sub case again, and really dig the bevel extending all the way to the tip of the crown guard. Nice detail!


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> Green...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Green...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> On my end, it's not like I would spend any more, just for a name brand, so both microbrands and Chinese factory watches offer better VFM.
> 
> What do we think an NTH-quality watch with "Seiko" on the dial would run us? I bet close to, or north of, $1k.
> 
> King Turtle over on Long Island Watch is listed at $625. The Islander version of the turtle is $299, and I can get a Chinese factory clone for less than $200. Is paying more for a Seiko going to do anything for me in the long run? Other than pay too much for service at the only US Seiko service center...?


Those new 62MAS reissues that Seiko released this year basically answer that question. They're about as close to an NTH Sub as Seiko has done in recent memory, 40mm/47mm, though thicker of course. Even the bezel insert has an NTH look to it, although I'm pretty sure it's not PVD coated steel. $1000 on rubber, $1200 on bracelet. The one thing I would be concerned about with the Chinese clones is the WR spec being "optimistic." Why wouldn't you cut corners there? How likely is somebody to actually take their Seiko Tuna rip-off past 50M and find out then that the glass is fogging up because water is coming in?

At least with an NTH, or you name it other micros, it's not some faceless corp behind the brand, it's either a solo operation or a very small team, and they are (or should be) accountable for the specs they print on the tin. I have no doubt that one of Doc's watches could easily surpass a 300M pressure test. A $200 San Martin Seiko knockoff? Eh... I dunno about that.

As for what you're getting with a Seiko specifically as opposed to a micro, it's not that much....unless you care about things like a 10-beat movement in the SLA037. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any micros are using 36,000bph movements. Or spring drives, or are making dials at the level that Grand Seiko is. Microbrands obviously can compete very well with Turtles, Sumos, Shoguns, Samurais, etc, but get high up enough on the ladder at Seiko, and they have advantages of being an enormous corporation making their own movements and production facilities that micros don't. There won't be any microbrand watches using the 8L55 in the SLA037, because Seiko won't sell it to anyone.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Green...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoa, Nelly. Look at that.

I'm not predisposed to like Azores or green. But this has my attention. Looks like a lizard eye or something. And what do you call that fading thing - fume? This has it twice.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Screw down crown is an opportunity for a watch to shine. A smooth operator with a nice pop out is one of the intangibles that can add to the experience. Might as well include one on divers where they just seem to belong. Seem to belong because we’re used to them being there. 

Talking out of both sides of my mouth, I also get a kick out of push pull on a couple of my dressier non-divers. Being able to wind the watch at any time feels fancy. 

“Hey, watch, not worried about getting wet?” 

“Of course not, you heathen. There is no way you’d stoop so low as to wash the car or fix the sprinklers while wearing such an elegant watch as myself.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

docvail said:


> Green...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, man.

I normally love me some blue dials, but...wow. Now I gotta make some decisions.



Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah. The new Tropics are lookers.

Wait until you see pics from someone who actually knows how to take them.


----------



## Opensider (Oct 12, 2012)

docvail said:


> Green...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Is that an image compression artifact, or does the dial structure really have an almost cross-hatch block / basket pattern in it?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Those new 62MAS reissues that Seiko released this year basically answer that question. They're about as close to an NTH Sub as Seiko has done in recent memory, 40mm/47mm, though thicker of course. Even the bezel insert has an NTH look to it, although I'm pretty sure it's not PVD coated steel. $1000 on rubber, $1200 on bracelet. The one thing I would be concerned about with the Chinese clones is the WR spec being "optimistic." Why wouldn't you cut corners there? How likely is somebody to actually take their Seiko Tuna rip-off past 50M and find out then that the glass is fogging up because water is coming in?
> 
> At least with an NTH, or you name it other micros, it's not some faceless corp behind the brand, it's either a solo operation or a very small team, and they are (or should be) accountable for the specs they print on the tin. I have no doubt that one of Doc's watches could easily surpass a 300M pressure test. A $200 San Martin Seiko knockoff? Eh... I dunno about that.
> 
> ...


The Seiko pictured above^^^ does Not have an 8L55 inside. It has a lowbeat 6R and IMHO is vastly overpriced with such a pedestrian movement.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Yeah. The new Tropics are lookers.
> 
> Wait until you see pics from someone who actually knows how to take them.


In the metal shots of the V2 Tropics, which release next year. And renders only of the 2K1 line, which are coming after the DRs. Is this because the Tropics are simply just an "update" and the 2K1s are an all new design? And if it's because it's a new design, does that make it....


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Speaking of devilrays, are they still on track for end of june? Any pics of it on the new bracelet? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Is that an image compression artifact, or does the dial structure really have an almost cross-hatch block / basket pattern in it?


You're talking about the Azores?

The inner dial's texture is a radial version of the Antilles texture, which is like rough-cut-wood.. The outer dial's texture is like denim, IMO.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> You may or may not be able to keep your 50 year old Speedy running indefinitely. Eventually, parts may become so scarce or expensive to fabricate that keeping it running may not be possible, much less affordable.
> 
> You may or may not have seen my post about it. My local watchmaker had to turn away a guy with a once-very-valuable vintage Rolex Explorer. The guy let some ham-fisted half-wit work on it. The watch was ruined in the process, and rendered worthless. Rolex no longer supplies parts for that model.
> 
> ...


Even with the lower beat count, that NH35 takes an absolute beating. I've not had issues with one yet.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> In the metal shots of the V2 Tropics, which release next year. And renders only of the 2K1 line, which are coming after the DRs. Is this because the Tropics are simply just an "update" and the 2K1s are an all new design? And if it's because it's a new design, does that make it....
> View attachment 15230383


As a general rule, we don't make prototypes any more, full stop. The exception would be a situation where we're doing something "new", as in, trying something for the first time, and we want to test or fine-tune the results, and we have time to do that.

In this case, we're using new dial textures, and switching from printed to applied markers on the Azores, which was a bit challenging, given that the lume patches surround the inlaid numbers on the 3-6-9-12. We wanted to see how both would look in the metal before committing to production.

We wanted to do some test-runs of the dials, and we had time to do it. The dials you're seeing are the second iteration of the new designs. There were some issues with the first iteration we needed to work out.

We didn't even make new cases, which would have taken longer, and cost more. We just swapped the new dials into the original prototype cases we had made in 2016. I actually had to buy another tropic strap, because we only had 3.

The new case will be visually identical, but have very slightly different geometry. As a result, the updated bracelet doesn't perfectly fit the original prototype cases, and the bezels on the updated prototypes can't be turned. Obviously, these are things that will be corrected for mass production.

By contrast, there's nothing we're doing with the 2K1 subs which we haven't done before, so there was no consideration given to prototyping.



DuckaDiesel said:


> Speaking of devilrays, are they still on track for end of june? Any pics of it on the new bracelet?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


As far as I know, they are still on track.

No pics of the new bracelet.

The 3D models Rusty uses for illustration come to us from our vendors. When we come up with a new design, we send them our 3D files, which get proofed by our vendors, then sent back to us with any needed modifications. The illustrations you see are extracted from the CAD/CAM files used for manufacturing. Trust me, they're accurate enough in the details.

Any difference between the 3D illustrations and reality are going to be very slight, often the result of things like the lighting and reflection settings Rusty uses. You're not going to find any differences such as the depth of the cuts or dimensions of the links aren't the same.

The only exception to the above would be very small details which are difficult to precisely replicate in 3D, such as the sharpness of certain angles (like the definition of the Subs' end-link, to cite a commonly criticized example), the depth of bezel engravings (someone asked about it recently), etc, but nothing related to the bracelet.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> The Seiko pictured above^^^ does Not have an 8L55 inside. It has a lowbeat 6R and IMHO is vastly overpriced with such a pedestrian movement.


Oh I know. The answer to the question of "what would an NTH level watch that said Seiko on it cost?" is that. $1000-1200. Absolutely nobody wanted an update to the 6R15 with an additional 20 hours of power reserve instead of a switch to 4Hz, but that's what we got.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Speaking of the Tikuna, I've just had an itch..

I have a request for our resident photoshop guy. I know we looked at a non-NTH red bezel insert on the Tik. But I find myself curious as to what it'd look like with an Oberon/Kiger insert and/or a Barracuda insert. Obviously wanna keep the C3, but still add a splash more red with the triangle. I like the Amphion insert as well, but I feel the full minute track would be too busy with the already long(compared to most the other subs) minute track on the dial.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Hey Doc, phew, thought your thread had gone the way of dinosaurs. Was wondering why there hadn't been any activity since Feb on the other thread. Just a request for future.... if your going to close off a thread, could you add a last post redirecting to your new one?? I'd been having trouble with tapatalk so assumed it was something going on with that. I tend to use my mobile mainly to hang around in this forum. Was quite puzzled that the old thread went from literally a billion posts a day to zero....

Glad to see your still on line, haven't got the time to slog my way through 200+ pages so hopefully that larger Nth still on its way... anyway here is the Cruz from some time back now... still a fav


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hey Doc, phew, thought your thread had gone the way of dinosaurs. Was wondering why there hadn't been any activity since Feb on the other thread. Just a request for future.... if your going to close off a thread, could you add a last post redirecting to your new one?? I'd been having trouble with tapatalk so assumed it was something going on with that. I tend to use my mobile mainly to hang around in this forum. Was quite puzzled that the old thread went from literally a billion posts a day to zero....
> 
> Glad to see your still on line, haven't got the time to slog my way through 200+ pages so hopefully that larger Nth still on its way... anyway here is the Cruz from some time back now... still a fav
> View attachment 15232371


Scroll back a few pages my man. You'll see the renders of the 2K1s. Swiftsure and Thresher.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hey Doc, phew, thought your thread had gone the way of dinosaurs. Was wondering why there hadn't been any activity since Feb on the other thread. Just a request for future.... if your going to close off a thread, could you add a last post redirecting to your new one?? I'd been having trouble with tapatalk so assumed it was something going on with that. I tend to use my mobile mainly to hang around in this forum. Was quite puzzled that the old thread went from literally a billion posts a day to zero....
> 
> Glad to see your still on line, haven't got the time to slog my way through 200+ pages so hopefully that larger Nth still on its way... anyway here is the Cruz from some time back now... still a fav
> View attachment 15232371


Hard to post a "to be continued" comment in a thread if you don't know it's about to be locked.

2K1's are in production now. Due in late summer / early fall.

Welcome back.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Hard to post a "to be continued" comment in a thread if you don't know it's about to be locked.
> 
> 2K1's are in production now. Due in late summer / early fall.
> 
> Welcome back.


Ahhhh so it weren't you then.. sorry mate assumed it was all your doing. My apologies.

Right... now to those larger watches! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Its quiet in here...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> This leads me to, why cant anyone in microbrand world make a diver looking watch with a push pull crown? No one dives with these anyway.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Neewwwwp. No diver would be taken seriously with a push-pull crown. The crown action on the SKX is terrible, but I still prefer that reassurance that once it's down, it's staying down, even if I need to really scrub the watch with soap to get all of the sunscreen residue off. A watch with good crown action on the other hand, like my Oris D65, is actually quite nice.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Speaking of the Tikuna, I've just had an itch..
> 
> I have a request for our resident photoshop guy. I know we looked at a non-NTH red bezel insert on the Tik. But I find myself curious as to what it'd look like with an Oberon/Kiger insert and/or a Barracuda insert. Obviously wanna keep the C3, but still add a splash more red with the triangle. I like the Amphion insert as well, but I feel the full minute track would be too busy with the already long(compared to most the other subs) minute track on the dial.


NTH Tikcuda.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> NTH Tikcuda.
> 
> View attachment 15234173


You're the man


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> You're the man


I think that looks great.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> You're the man


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## jmariorebelo (Jan 14, 2019)

I've been following this thread for a while now. I don't really have an interest in buying a NTH watch (too big for comfort and I'm not a fan of automatics, but if I had to buy a diver, the devilray would be it), just wanted to say the discussions in this thread are the best in all of WUS.

To docvail in particular, I really like the way you carry yourself and bring forward your thoughts. I wish more people were like that, specially brand owners. All this coherent speech and respectful interaction with the public can only work wonders for you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jmariorebelo said:


> I've been following this thread for a while now. I don't really have an interest in buying a NTH watch...














jmariorebelo said:


> ...just wanted to say the discussions in this thread are the best in all of WUS.
> 
> To docvail in particular, I really like the way you carry yourself and bring forward your thoughts. I wish more people were like that, specially brand owners. All this coherent speech and respectful interaction with the public can only work wonders for you.


Oh, alright....you can stay.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Rhorya said:


> I have this CW GMT C65 diver, it has a push in crown but a WR of 150m. It's good enough for what i wear this watch for.


This is on my short list. How do you like it?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> This is on my short list. How do you like it?


I recently wore mine for an entire week on a cross country road trip. Things i liked were the easy to read high contrast hands (although the lume isnt strong like NTH!), also the smaller 24 hour bezel is nice as its there when i want to use it but doesn't try to overpower the overall design and use of the watch. The GMT function is a secondary function and thats why this design works for me personally.

The case is 41mm but only slightly larger than 12.05mm thick so it wears very nice on the wrist. The bracelet has a nice adjustment feature inside the clasp similar to the glide-lok allowing almost 3/8" of adjustment.

The overall fit and finish is smooth and well executed. I love the high dome crystal and how it has a little side distortion affect which gives it a nice vintage feel.

Overall i am very pleased with it and look to enjoy it for a while!


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## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> This is on my short list. How do you like it?


That's the one to get. On my short list as well. Personally, I perfer this one over the Steinhart and Squale Pepsi gmts. The new Zelos gmts look great as well, and give a similar vibe, but the indices are not to my taste.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I was a GMT junkie for a while, now reformed. For a cross country drive, or basically any travel in the same hemisphere, a 12hr bezel will suffice, for me. Which means at least four different variations of the NTH sub would work, or any of them, with a bezel insert swap. Currently, it's a Scorpene Nomad with Amphion Commando bezel insert. Granted, insert swap isn't easy enough that I would swap back and forth for a trip, which is one of the reasons I like the Commando insert with both 12hr and 60min countdown indexes.









The upcoming Devil Ray series also have the dual-index bezels for handy tracking of a second time zone. Really, the only need I would have for an actual 24hr GMT movement is for travel/business in Asia or other destination, at least 12hrs out of phase with hometime.

I find the ETA 2493 movement a bit wonky, in use. One watch, new from a vendor, the GMT hand was not set correct, which I've heard is a not uncommon complaint. Also, the adjustment action. Since GMT hand adjustment is at the second crown position, I was frequently confusing date for GMT adjustment. I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for someone using the watch on a regular basis, but when it died and a week later I would have to set the date, inevitably I would turn it the wrong way... and then have to sequence through 23hrs to get the GMT hand back to where it should be, before setting the date. I'm sure if I was adjusting the GMT hand, the opposite would happen... Honestly, the only GMT function I've ever liked is the Seiko 8f56 quartz movement, where the hour hand adjusts independently, both ways, and has a perpetual calendar...

Another nit to pick with the CW GMT is the uni-directional bezel. CW does a bunch of GMT watches, so would it kill them to do a 48- or 96-click bi-directional bezel...? Cheap shortcut to use a 120click uni-directional dive bezel, but c'mon CW...

I really like the CW GMTs, and if they could fix the other issues, I would be interested, but I'm not into pepsi bezel insert, the other models have faux vintage lume, and movement plus uni-directional bezel just kill it for me.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

I've been waiting to join this club for several years. Finally saved the money.

Bought on May 28 on eBay, thought I was getting a steal at under $500 shipped.

Then, eBay added something like $80 in taxes () because it's coming from Australia.

...theoretically. Tracking last updated on June 5. It was still in Australia.

The wait is killing me!

#firstworldproblems


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I really like the CW GMTs, and if they could fix the other issues, I would be interested, but I'm not into pepsi bezel insert, the other models have faux vintage lume, and movement plus uni-directional bezel just kill it for me.


I really like the look of the B&R. Similar to the CW, but better executed I think, and I like the color options more. Admittedly they are _WAY_ more expensive, I think something like $3200, and they still use the same ETA 2893-2 as everybody else. But hey, at least the bezel is bi-directional.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Scorpene Nomad with Amphion Commando bezel insert.
> 
> View attachment 15235749


Gah. That watch is too perfect... Should have been a production model. It's basically the *ideal* day-to-day bring-it-anywhere watch. Not too diver-y, not too GMT-y, not too pilot-y..


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> I've been waiting to join this club for several years. Finally saved the money.
> 
> Bought on May 28 on eBay, thought I was getting a steal at under $500 shipped.
> 
> ...


Nice one, but...

...you're missing the most important detail, which one did you go for?


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> I've been waiting to join this club for several years. Finally saved the money.
> 
> Bought on May 28 on eBay, thought I was getting a steal at under $500 shipped.
> 
> ...


Nice one, but...

...you're missing the most important detail, which one did you go for?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Just got an email from Patrik. They're done. Hopefully the shipping time wont be anywhere near as long this time.

I ordered at the absolute wrong time when I had him do the strap for my GG. It sat in the Croatian post office for a month because of Covid.

I got this







For this








And this







For this


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Got the new insert for the Amphion.
Just sitting on top right now.
It will look amazing










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Nice one, but...
> 
> ...you're missing the most important detail, which one did you go for?


The Nacken Modern.

...and there's one for $425 available in the sales forum right now.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> I've been waiting to join this club for several years. Finally saved the money.
> 
> Bought on May 28 on eBay, thought I was getting a steal at under $500 shipped.
> 
> ...


I don't think the taxes are because it's coming from Australia. They seem to be applying state tax regardless if where the product is shipping from.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Recent court rulings regarding online sellers and state sales tax (US states') have resulted in many states and online sellers adopting the same standard suggested by the rulings.

In a nutshell, online sellers are required to charge sales tax on any transaction involving a customer in any state where the seller has a "significant presence", loosely defined as any state where the seller maintains a physical location, such as an office or distribution center, or has significant sales (typically over a certain dollar amount).

In the case of sites like eBay and Amazon, they're just charging sales tax everywhere now. It doesn't matter where the seller or buyer is located, because they, eBay / Amazon, have enough sales in the buyer's state to push them over the minimum threshold.

For small businesses like mine, it's not an issue (yet). Compliance is fairly easy, because we only need to charge sales tax in states where we're located. Our sales to other states are under the threshold. Even if they were over the limit, the states aren't going to be able to go after every small business that sells online, but the huge online sellers are easy targets.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Yeah I actually had it wrong. The tax was $80+AUS not USD, which worked out to be 9.9% of the sales price... which is my local sales tax. I thought it was $80 USD and I couldn’t figure out where the heck 16% tax came from. 

Turns out I’m just dumb.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Currently, it's a Scorpene Nomad with Amphion Commando bezel insert. Granted, insert swap isn't easy enough that I would swap back and forth for a trip, which is one of the reasons I like the Commando insert with both 12hr and 60min countdown indexes.
> 
> View attachment 15235749


Don't suppose you also have the reverse of this - Nomad bezel on Amphion - put together? Seriously considering buying both for this combo, but would help to see if the Nomad bezel and Amphion dial work together.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Recent court rulings regarding online sellers and state sales tax (US states') have resulted in many states and online sellers adopting the same standard suggested by the rulings.
> 
> In a nutshell, online sellers are required to charge sales tax on any transaction involving a customer in any state where the seller has a "significant presence", loosely defined as any state where the seller maintains a physical location, such as an office or distribution center, or has significant sales (typically over a certain dollar amount).
> 
> ...


Have yet to be charged sales tax from any eBay buy as I use a PO box in a no-sales-tax state as my delivery address. Same with Amazon except for some sellers who refuse to send to a PO box, in which case I use the street address of the post office instead of the PO box address, and add the box number to the end of that street address. No sales tax is added.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> The Nacken Modern.
> 
> ...and there's one for $425 available in the sales forum right now.


Nice one, it's a great design, and you'll surely enjoy it. The quality is amazing for the price, even if you paid more than what your man in the sales corner is asking.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

double post strikes again...

I was going to post a wrist shot.. But since it arrived I haven't taken the Amphion off my wrist. It's just too nice.

Does anybody wear their blue dialed NTH on something other than the bracelet? I have a hard time finding another strap for the Barracuda that pairs well.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> double post strikes again...
> 
> I was going to post a wrist shot.. But since it arrived I haven't taken the Amphion off my wrist. It's just too nice.
> 
> Does anybody wear their blue dialed NTH on something other than the bracelet? I have a hard time finding another strap for the Barracuda that pairs well.


A combo I remember seeing and liking was a blue dial, think it was an Odin, on orange rubber.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> Recent court rulings regarding online sellers and state sales tax (US states') have resulted in many states and online sellers adopting the same standard suggested by the rulings.
> 
> In a nutshell, online sellers are required to charge sales tax on any transaction involving a customer in any state where the seller has a "significant presence", loosely defined as any state where the seller maintains a physical location, such as an office or distribution center, or has significant sales (typically over a certain dollar amount).
> 
> ...


As state coffers get emptier I think we'll see the thresholds for sales get smaller, if not disappear all together.

It starts to really suck when you sell a mix of taxable and non-taxable items and have to look to the item level to determine the tax burden for each jurisdiction.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> I really like the look of the B&R. Similar to the CW, but better executed I think, and I like the color options more. Admittedly they are _WAY_ more expensive, I think something like $3200, and they still use the same ETA 2893-2 as everybody else. But hey, at least the bezel is bi-directional.


Indeed -- I believe the C65 GMT with black dial and stainless bezel is pretty much an homage to one particular B&R model... which I love. If the CW didn't have faux vintage lume, I could almost overlook the uni- bezel. I actually tried a B&R on at a local AD, and, damn, they are nice watches. But for as much as they charge? I could get a decent used Omega 2534.50 for cheaper.



X2-Elijah said:


> Gah. That watch is too perfect...


Thank you. I think so, too. I had one of the previous Scorpenes, and when the Amphion Commando came out, I was, like, "If only I could swap the bezels..." The stock Nomad is perfectly decent, but I like this look even better.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> A combo I remember seeing and liking was a blue dial, think it was an Odin, on orange rubber.


Sorta something like this mebbe.........









That blue and orange combo really does work a treat....

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> I got this
> View attachment 15236749
> 
> For this
> View attachment 15236751





DuckaDiesel said:


> It will look amazing


Gotta say -- lovin' the creativity flowing through here...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Disneydave said:


> Don't suppose you also have the reverse of this - Nomad bezel on Amphion - put together? Seriously considering buying both for this combo, but would help to see if the Nomad bezel and Amphion dial work together.


I don't -- sold the Commando to finance the Nomad, and I'm hanging onto the original Nomad bezel, because reasons.

But @Davekaye90 may be able to mock something up for you?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> As state coffers get emptier I think we'll see the thresholds for sales get smaller, if not disappear all together.
> 
> It starts to really suck when you sell a mix of taxable and non-taxable items and have to look to the item level to determine the tax burden for each jurisdiction.


It's actually worse than that, potentially.

Not only do some businesses sell a mix of taxable and non-taxable goods, several states have different rates for different goods, and of course, we've got 50 states, wherein each state decides whether or not to charge sales tax, and at what rate.

For a small business like mine, programming an ecommerce website to collect tax for every state is challenging enough. It would require me to look up every state's sales tax rate, and know how to apply it, based on the products. I'd have to program my site for each state that collects tax, and possibly create different groups of products to be taxed at different rates, depending on the state.

I've done that for shipping rates, and it took me a long time to do. I had to run multiple shipping quotes for multiple products, being shipped to more than a hundred locations worldwide. Searching for zip codes in various countries around the world was time consuming, but not inanely so. I'm certain that finding and reading every state's sales tax laws would take a lot longer.

That's bad. But it gets worse...

Because I live in PA, and PA knows I operate a business here, I'm required to report my sales to the state four times per year, whether I collected and owe any sales tax that quarter, or not. Because over 90% of my sales are now through retailers, I usually don't owe anything, and when I do, it's often a paltry amount, less than $5 or $10. It's surely not worth the time I spend going onto the state's sales tax reporting website and filing.

They may not be getting a lot of sales tax revenue from me, but don't feel bad for them. They make up for it with income taxes.

Now imagine I have to do that for the 45 states which collect sales tax (plus DC), four times per year. Not only would it be a giant time-suck, but it would also siphon more cash out of my business. Even $10 per state (plus DC), 4 times per year, takes me from paying $40 per year to $1840.

Okay, it's less than $2000, but only because I'm mostly selling through retailers. Think about John at Watchgauge. Over 90% of his business is in the USA, and it's all direct to customer. He'd lose sales to sites outside the USA, which wouldn't be charging any sales tax, and he'd spend a lot more time and money on compliance.

Amazon, eBay, Wayfair, and the other huge ecommerce sites have the resources to employ teams of lawyers, programmers and accountants to deal with all this. If we see the nationwide passage of a law which would require small businesses to charge sales tax on a state-by-state basis, for the 45 states (& DC) which charge it, it puts those small businesses at an even bigger disadvantage to the bigger sellers.

In discussions with my accountant and attorney about it, it seems unlikely that each state would be able to go after every small business in every other state. There are millions of small businesses out there, being created or shut down on a daily basis. Other states have no way of knowing my business even exists, unless they get that info from PA, or the IRS.

That's the big concern - coordination among all 50 states (& DC), or some sort of implementation at the federal level.


----------



## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Does anybody wear their blue dialed NTH on something other than the bracelet? I have a hard time finding another strap for the Barracuda that pairs well.


I do as of about 3 hours ago when it arrived. Got it straight off the bracelet and on to the green nato. Nothing wrong with the bracelet but had this combo in mind from the start.

Very happy indeed not only with the watch but the man buying behaviour of spending about a year lusting after an NTH and now getting 2 in as many months:









Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Ragl said:


> Sorta something like this mebbe.........
> 
> View attachment 15238123
> 
> ...


uh, that is very funky indeed. Maybe too funky for me personally, but i makes me think about toning it down just a little with something like a cognac coloured strap, or maybe with an orange accent.



Antjrice said:


> I do as of about 3 hours ago when it arrived. Got it straight off the bracelet and on to the green nato. Nothing wrong with the bracelet but had this combo in mind from the start.
> 
> Very happy indeed not only with the watch but the man buying behaviour of spending about a year lusting after an NTH and now getting 2 in as many months:
> 
> ...


That is a very nice pairing as well, the watch is definitely the main attraction here, but the strap balances nicely. Good eye that this was immediately on your mind.

And for all the tax talk.. that sure does sound like a pain. I think Mark from Long Island Watch did a video about it ages ago, and I remember thinking that what he explained sounded like insanity. Here in Germany, the government decided to cut the VAT rate by 3 percent as part of the stimulus package, with only 1 months notice. I work at one of the largest european online retailers, so we're definitely affected by this, and even for a company with our budget this is a massive challenge. There are literally hundreds of functions that suddenly have to find out of they _own_ the tax related data or if they just get it from someplace else, if they store it or pass it on, how they do all automated calculations that just _worked_ until now, and nobody had to think about twice. And all of that over 3 generations of legacy and current software, to a large part written and designed by people who are no longer with the company. From that point of view, I think it's actually easier for SMBs who probably pay someone to worry about it for them.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

This tax stuff sounds terrible. Not very familiar with it personally...

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

winstoda said:


> This tax stuff sounds terrible
> 
> Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


now there's a uncontroversial statement we can all agree on...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I can literally walk 5 minutes down the road and be in a different, sales-tax-free state; Post Office is another couple minutes up the hill. Hmm...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I know I already posted this recently, but since there was a question about which bracelets/straps look good with the blue dial divers, I thought I would slap it up here again. I know it doesn't add much color, but personally I think the subs look really really good on shark mesh. I've tried taking this watch off of it, and it always seems to make its way back on here.


----------



## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> That is a very nice pairing as well, the watch is definitely the main attraction here, but the strap balances nicely. Good eye that this was immediately on your mind.


Many thanks but I can't take the credit. I got the idea from that guy on YouTube who is named after the French train company.....

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I can literally walk 5 minutes down the road and be in a different, sales-tax-free state; Post Office is another couple minutes up the hill. Hmm...


Residents of Vancouver, WA just over the river from Oregon don't have a state income tax. We don't have a sales tax in OR. You can probably see where this is going.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I don't -- sold the Commando to finance the Nomad, and I'm hanging onto the original Nomad bezel, because reasons.
> 
> But @Davekaye90 may be able to mock something up for you?


NTH Scorphion.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some better pics of the updated Tropics...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just thinking out loud. Beautiful dial, but it really needs that black bezel I think - ties the room together.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> NTH Scorphion.
> 
> View attachment 15239373


Wrong model, bro. I believe that would be the Amphene Commandmad...


----------



## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> I don't think there's anything about the 9015 that makes it more or less susceptible to winder caused damage than any other movement. If anything, it should be the opposite, since a Swiss movement nearing the end of its service interval _could_ be damaged from constant winding, whereas the time you can have between 9015 services (assuming you're going to ever service it at all, which I'd argue you should not) is a lot more indefinite. A winder is _definitely_ not going to kill a healthy, new 9015 in a couple of months, so if you want to keep using it, I don't see why you shouldn't.
> 
> That being said, I don't use them. My watches sit in a case (or really more _on_ it than in it, usually) and I just handwind them. The Seiko 6R, 9015 and SW-200 I just put about 30 or so winds in, which according to the SDGC009's power reserve indicator is about 60% or so on the mainspring, and I let the rotor do the rest. When I've had ETA-2824 watches, I shuffle start them just in case.





docvail said:


> Not just that movement. It isn't movement specific. Let me try to explain this as logically as I can...
> 
> The movement is lubricated so that all the metal parts work together with a minimum of damage caused by contact and friction. Those lubricants don't "fall off" because of gravity and pool inside the case, so the idea that you're helping them circulate by keeping the watch on a winder is a fallacy. The lubricants don't fall off, they just dry up over time.
> 
> ...





Jtragic said:


> As state coffers get emptier I think we'll see the thresholds for sales get smaller, if not disappear all together.
> 
> It starts to really suck when you sell a mix of taxable and non-taxable items and have to look to the item level to determine the tax burden for each jurisdiction.


yeah, this is really pissing off esp at Ebay as they charge sales tax even on a used item when the sale is private seller to private buyer!  I appealed to them & they sent me to a page on their website where I need to get hold of an IRS tax form & explain why i did not need to pay sales tax. totally BS! they do not distinguish between new & used, between commercial seller & private seller - like docvail said - just blanket everyone with sales tax. o|o|
I dont mind paying my fair share of sales tax - if the item is new, sure I will pay the sales tax just as i would at the store. Even used from a commercial seller I'm ok w/ sales tax (buy a used car or a used video game at, say, GameStop, you have to pay sales tax) but private seller-private buyer? what's up with that?? <|:-s


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Some better pics of the updated Tropics...
> 
> View attachment 15239629
> 
> ...


Pretty. What's the occasion for the pro looking glamour shots?

Be careful, these pictures may look as nice as the real things. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Just thinking out loud. Beautiful dial, but it really needs that black bezel I think - ties the room together.
> 
> View attachment 15239775


Can you please not do this?

It looks like $hlt, and this is what someone is seeing in Tapatalk...










I can f**k up my business all on my own. I don't need any extra help.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Pretty. What's the occasion for the pro looking glamour shots?
> 
> Be careful, these pictures may look as nice as the real things.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The occasion is we have time to do it, and we felt like it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> It's actually worse than that, potentially.
> 
> Not only do some businesses sell a mix of taxable and non-taxable goods, several states have different rates for different goods, and of course, we've got 50 states, wherein each state decides whether or not to charge sales tax, and at what rate.
> 
> ...


Avalara is a service you can look into that handles all the taxes should you go that way. I believe they integrate with most web platforms as well.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

@Davekaye90 I appreciate the mock up for the Nomad Amphion! But I also see Doc's point here, lol. Sorry, not that it's funny, but just thinking how bad Tapatalk is at surfacing relevant images. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> Avalara is a service you can look into that handles all the taxes should you go that way. I believe they integrate with most web platforms as well.


They make an app called "Trustfile", which does integrate with the ecommerce platform I'm using. However, it doesn't appear very many people are using it, and the few reviews I could find were very mixed. The negative-to-average ones are all pretty consistent in that the company's support is poo-poo.

There are other apps. At least one looks like it might be decent. Call me a pessimist, but my bet is that before I can use any app, I'd first need to apply to each state, to get a state sales tax filing number, then plug that into the app. That's a chore I dread doing (46 times).

It also seems likely that I'd need to do some back-end programming, for any state that has different rates for different products, and likely need to do some research to know which rates apply to each product I sell (it's not just watches).

My goal isn't to increase my direct to consumer sales, it's to increase my sales through my retailers. If it ends up becoming a nationwide law for ecommerce sites to charge sales tax, even on out-of-state transactions, it'll be Keil's problem to deal with in that scenario.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Can you please not do this?
> 
> It looks like $hlt, and this is what someone is seeing in Tapatalk...
> 
> ...


You are right...the black date wheel totally kills it. It needs to be burnt whisky as well!

Other than that, it's got a cool vintage datejust look!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> @Davekaye90 I appreciate the mock up for the Nomad Amphion! But I also see Doc's point here, lol. Sorry, not that it's funny, but just thinking how bad Tapatalk is at surfacing relevant images.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Just sayin'...

People break my balls about getting professional photography done. Okay, I send some watches out for pro photography. I post the beautiful photos I'm paying for. Less than an hour later, someone's posting a $hltty photoshop image of my beautiful dial in that fugly case.

Anyone browsing the forum on Tapatalk since then isn't seeing those lovely images I posted. Oh, no. Anyone unfamiliar with the brand - that's likely to be their first impression, not the watches we're making, but that ugly-as-hell mash-up of my dial in some half-a$$ed Alibaba POS case.

If people want to play mix-and-match with components we actually make, that's one thing. But I'd rather this thread be kept free of the Franken$hlt.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> You are right...the black date wheel totally kills it. It needs to be burnt whisky as well!
> 
> Other than that, it's got a cool vintage datejust look!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know you're just joking, but please don't encourage this.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

It'd kinda be nice if the thread creator got to pick the image that was displayed for the topic. I can think of a number of times where random pics have caused...problems.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> It'd kinda be nice if the thread creator got to pick the image that was displayed for the topic. I can think of a number of times where random pics have caused...problems.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


That would be nice.

It would be nice if people recognized that I had to pay to be a forum sponsor in order to continue having an official thread, which is supposed to help my business in some way, before they post $hlt that can't conceivably help my business in any way, and is more than likely only going to hurt it.

A lot of things would be nice.

Hell, any random meme I have on my laptop is better than that abomination.

Here. I'll prove it...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Too lazy to quote all the relatable stuff to the topic at hand. But I've gotta agree...

That case and especially that bezel was boo boo.









But on a positive note... The v2 Tropics are effing killer. I'm gonna be waffling back and forth on which to get until they release.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Thread demolestation pic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Can we like it if it was a pretend Atticus instead?  The dial and hands on the brown Antilles are rad. Can't decide if twin crowns are for me.

I did have the thought, back before bezel swapping was a possibility, that maybe any mock ups we post should have a "MOCK UP / NOT REAL" watermark across them. Or have the logo covered. To help avoid confusion for folks who stumbled across the images out of context. Either in the thread or through a google search.

Riffing off the recent topic of whether we write off brands based on one disappointing experience, I don't hold a design or two I don't like against a brand. If I thought the brown mock up was real, and if I shared the opinion that it was an abomination, it wouldn't keep me from liking other NTH designs. Granted, I'm not just stumbling onto the brand for the first time. But I still don't think I'd write off the brand before a much broader survey of the collection.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Not to open a can of worms here, but WUS makes someone pay to have an official thread? A forum I could get, but a thread...? Seems like you should be able to at least moderate the thread then? But I digress.

All the same, excited for the new pieces. I missed them on the first go. I won't this time (I'm still kicking myself for missing the Scorpene at least twice now).

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> ...
> 
> But on a positive note... The v2 Tropics are effing killer. I'm gonna be waffling back and forth on which to get until they release.


Easy decision for me: the green eye Azores!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> I know I already posted this recently, but since there was a question about which bracelets/straps look good with the blue dial divers, I thought I would slap it up here again. I know it doesn't add much color, but personally I think the subs look really really good on shark mesh. I've tried taking this watch off of it, and it always seems to make its way back on here.
> View attachment 15239095


Rusty (not Atticus/NTH Rusty) over on WPAC is selling a Breitling with a white dial and blue bezel, which also looks fantastic on mesh. The NTH Santa Cruz looks great on BOP, and I imagine would also work well.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Not to open a can of worms here, but WUS makes someone pay to have an official thread? A forum I could get, but a thread...? Seems like you should be able to at least moderate the thread then? But I digress.
> 
> All the same, excited for the new pieces. I missed them on the first go. I won't this time (I'm still kicking myself for missing the Scorpene at least twice now).
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


My Dad thinks WUS should be paying me, given the activity my brand's threads usually have, but he may be a tad biased.

It's all good. My business has benefited a lot from WUS. Membership is free. Ads and sponsorship are the only way to pay for the servers and run the place at a profit.

Over the years, I've been given a ton of leeway by the forum's owners and moderators. I took it as an acknowledgement that I've added some value, rather than simply coming around to participate only when I've got a new project to promote.

Between the benefit to my business, and the leeway I've been given, I don't at all mind kicking in a little to help keep the lights on. The cost is very reasonable, considering the benefit.

(There are still some Scorpene Nomads left available - will you get one, or will you miss it thrice or more?)


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

gokce said:


> Easy decision for me: the green eye Azores!


Ditto


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> I know you're just joking, but please don't encourage this.


It was a joke and sorry!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## H3O+ (May 23, 2009)

Am I the only person who was really digging the NTH Air King (minus the date of course)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Can you please not do this?
> 
> It looks like $hlt, and this is what someone is seeing in Tapatalk...
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> I know you're just joking, but please don't encourage this.





H3O+ said:


> Am I the only person who was really digging the NTH Air King (minus the date of course)?


Really...?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> I know I already posted this recently, but since there was a question about which bracelets/straps look good with the blue dial divers, I thought I would slap it up here again. I know it doesn't add much color, but personally I think the subs look really really good on shark mesh. I've tried taking this watch off of it, and it always seems to make its way back on here.
> View attachment 15239095


I am generally not a shark mesh fan but this looks good.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## jmariorebelo (Jan 14, 2019)

docvail said:


> Some better pics of the updated Tropics...
> 
> View attachment 15239629
> 
> ...


These two look absolutely brilliant.

Any reasoning behind the model name? I'm portuguese and it got me curious.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yep the new Azores look great |>


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jmariorebelo said:


> These two look absolutely brilliant.
> 
> Any reasoning behind the model name? I'm portuguese and it got me curious.


Azores?

I dunno. I honestly forget my thought process from 4 years ago, when we were developing the designs. I vaguely recall wanting to name them after islands, and Azores had a nice ring to it.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

H3O+ said:


> Am I the only person who was really digging the NTH Air King (minus the date of course)?


Oh, I'm with you. Lots of love for the 15010.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice review from our friend Joshua Flagg, across the pond...


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## H3O+ (May 23, 2009)

docvail said:


> Azores?
> 
> I dunno. I honestly forget my thought process from 4 years ago, when we were developing the designs. I vaguely recall wanting to name them after islands, and Azores had a nice ring to it.
> 
> View attachment 15242317


I think it was Tropics -> Islands -> Azores and Antilles was alliterative.

I have a first-gen Azores and I remember jingoistically wishing that the model names were reversed, as the Antilles are so much closer to the US.

Enjoy a terrible pic of my Azores.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

My bank's online options include naming your accounts. 

I just changed an account to 'Azores'. 

This 'hobby' man...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

H3O+ said:


> I think it was Tropics -> Islands -> Azores and Antilles was alliterative.
> 
> I have a first-gen Azores and I remember jingoistically wishing that the model names were reversed, as the Antilles are so much closer to the US.
> 
> ...


My Sci-Fi geek friends wanted the names to be reversed because of Luke Skywalker's friend, Wedge Antilles, and the wedge-shaped markers on the Azores.

Sometimes I don't mind disappointing people.

That was one of those times.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Zelos released a watch named Thresher

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> Zelos released a watch named Thresher
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I'll be damned, they did.

Good specs too.

Can't make my mind up on that dial though. I think I like it... But I don't know? It seems so busy... Yet, not?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'll be damned, they did.
> 
> Good specs too.
> 
> Can't make my mind up on that dial though. I think I like it... But I don't know? It seems so busy... Yet, not?


So I've been made aware.

Zelos *revealed* pics of *prototypes* of a watch called the Thresher, in the private Zelos group, literally one day before we revealed our Thresher, which was already in production, since May.

As far as I'm aware, their Thresher hasn't been "released" yet.

It's called a "coincidence".


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be damned, they did.
> ...











I think you should burn the building down. Dont forget to take his red Swingline.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I think you should burn the building down. Dont forget to take his red Swingline.


As long as he doesn't start a new brand with the initials "NTH", complete with a similar logo, I'll overlook the breach in propriety.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Glad I found this thread again.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Nacken on a very beachy strap.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Zhresher not for me. But those end links are intriguing. Brought this to mind...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Surely this has come up over the years. I just stumbled on it. I think I like the V.2 bracelet better with the V.1 clasp. Clasp being slim, rounded, short, makes it pair well with the slim, rounded, short links.

I also surprised myself in discovering that I don't always prefer larger links. Nazario Azzuro just didn't seem right on a V.1 bracelet. One old, one new photo...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Just sayin'...
> 
> Anyone browsing the forum on Tapatalk since then isn't seeing those lovely images I posted. Oh, no. Anyone unfamiliar with the brand - that's likely to be their first impression, not the watches we're making, but that ugly-as-hell mash-up of my dial in some half-a$$ed Alibaba POS case.


Message received. For the record though, this was the POS Alibaba donor case - a Rolex Air King 14010.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Message received. For the record though, this was the POS Alibaba donor case - a Rolex Air King 14010.


Well done Dave.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> Zhresher not for me. But those end links are intriguing. Brought this to mind...
> 
> View attachment 15243263


Great photo of the cockroach.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Jtragic said:


> Well done Dave.


Personally, i think it's extremely weird that the preview looks like Doc posted this image...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Surely this has come up over the years. I just stumbled on it. I think I like the V.2 bracelet better with the V.1 clasp. Clasp being slim, rounded, short, makes it pair well with the slim, rounded, short links.
> 
> I also surprised myself in discovering that I don't always prefer larger links. Nazario Azzuro just didn't seem right on a V.1 bracelet. One old, one new photo...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Message received. For the record though, this was the POS Alibaba donor case - a Rolex Air King 14010.
> 
> View attachment 15243451


Be that as it may, that case looked like $hlt in that post, as many vintage watches (including Rolexes) do.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Hmm... may have to grab a v1 clasp to check it out. Odd, I didn't have an issue with the v2 clasp until someone else mentioned the v1 worked better for them... funny how that works.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> Well done Dave.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Great photo of the cockroach.


Is that what flyboys call it?

Please tell me at least one has had "La Cucaracha" painted on the side.

Please.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> Surely this has come up over the years. I just stumbled on it. I think I like the V.2 bracelet better with the V.1 clasp. Clasp being slim, rounded, short, makes it pair well with the slim, rounded, short links.
> 
> I also surprised myself in discovering that I don't always prefer larger links. Nazario Azzuro just didn't seem right on a V.1 bracelet. One old, one new photo...


The old (smaller) clasp works on the BoR as well. I've been moving them back and forth, and think I prefer the smaller clasp as well. And on a related note, I took the new clasp apart, and flattened the curved, hinged expansion joint (no idea what it's technically called, but the curved part underneath the clasp) in a vise (being VERY careful not to scratch it) and it sits much better on my wrist. I have a bunch of them, so it's easy to mess around with one of them to see if it's an improvement or not. FWIW, YMMV....


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This forum is getting more aggressive in double posting crap. Even using my old successful technique of hitting the thread topic when it gives you the "wait 10 second" warning, didn't work. So, random photo of something:









I give you the "flatter clasp on a rubber strap."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NOT MY LISTING - Anyone looking for a blue Commander 300?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224055836251?ul_noapp=true


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Great photo of the cockroach.


Good one.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Is that what flyboys call it?
> 
> Please tell me at least one has had "La Cucaracha" painted on the side.
> 
> Please.


In a bizarre fit of weirdness, the forum double-posted my reply to this, and then when I edited the second post, it deleted the first. Soooooo, here we go again:

I bet at least one of the F-117's had something like that painted on the side. Nobody ever called it the Nighthawk. Most fighters had an official moniker, and then had a name used by the pilots, and some even had a third name used by the guys flying something else. The F-16 "Falcon" might be the best example as the guys flying it called it the Viper, and most everyone else called it the "Lawn Dart". And NOBODY ever called the A-10 the Thunderbolt. It was and always will be the Warthog.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Off topic - anyone else having trouble adding images to forum posts while using a Chromebook? I seem to have no problem when I'm on my Windows machine, but the last week or so, I haven't been able to add images with my Chromebook, even after updating and rebooting.

It seems like the only way to do it now is by using the "Go Advanced" button, getting into the advanced post editor, and repeatedly (as in, 2-3x, at least) trying to upload the photo within the regular post window, then checking to see if the image appears in the image manager, then clicking "add in-line". 

It's a real pain in the balls.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> In a bizarre fit of weirdness, the forum double-posted my reply to this, and then when I edited the second post, it deleted the first.


It gets weirder still...

I liked your first post, didn't even see your second, but then saw that I'd apparently liked both.

Alluding to my post above, about problems using the forum on my Chromebook - I asked a mod if what I was experiencing had been reported by any others. He didn't respond to that with a direct answer, but the gist of what I was told is that the admins are doing some computer-nerdery stuff in the background, some sort of data migration or something, and so the forum's behavior has been more unpredictable than usual, recently.

Fun times...

PS/EDIT - this is a verbatim quote: "The IT Team is doing a lot of work in the 'back end' in preparation for the site migration to the new XenForo platform this coming weekend."

That was from three days ago, so we could see improvements by next week (fingers crossed).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Last of the reveals for the upcoming 2K1 Subs.

We're making a VERY limited number of the Thresher and the Swiftsure with a DLC case and bracelet (EDIT - both date and no-date for each).

When I say VERY limited - we're talking about 6 pieces of each.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> It gets weirder still...
> 
> I liked your first post, didn't even see your second, but then saw that I'd apparently liked both.
> 
> ...


There needs to be a setting whereby everyone is compelled to automatically like everything I post. And I should then be compensated for all the likes. I would then be an influencer, and everyone would then be required to give me watches.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

To make it easier to find the party again after the forum migration wipes everything out, should we discuss now what the replacement thread will be called? 

On a more serious note, it would be nice if there was a way to EASILY view and/or save all of the images from a thread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Last of the reveals for the upcoming 2K1 Subs.
> 
> We're making a VERY limited number of the Thresher and the Swiftsure with a DLC case and bracelet (EDIT - both date and no-date for each).
> 
> ...


Dayum. Dat Swiftsure DLC doe. Gotta ask, why such low production numbers? Also, will the cases be sandblasted first before the DLC coat, like most cases are? The "black mirror" look of DLC over polished steel is quite cool, but it's pretty rare.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> There needs to be a setting whereby everyone is compelled to automatically like everything I post. And I should then be compensated for all the likes. I would then be an influencer, and everyone would then be required to give me watches.


Hey Snot, lets not get snotty.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

There doesn't seem to be a lot of woo-woo new agey-ness around here, and the tech world is also not known for such, but doing a major forum migration smack-dab in the middle of a Mercury retrograde phase is astrologically contraindicated. Just sayin'...


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Antjrice said:


> Many thanks but I can't take the credit. I got the idea from that guy on YouTube who is named after the French train company.....


I am not ashamed to admit that I laughed way to hard at this...



docvail said:


> Azores?
> 
> I dunno. I honestly forget my thought process from 4 years ago, when we were developing the designs. I vaguely recall wanting to name them after islands, and Azores had a nice ring to it.
> 
> View attachment 15242317


This is incredibly handsome. The dial really pulls you in.

Unrelated to any of this. I finally collected sub #4 from customs today. I might still get a candid shot today. It's something a little different and I am pretty excited


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those of you with ADHD, who can't sit through a review video on YouTube (I can, but only when it's about me), our friend Joshua Flagg was also kind enough to offer up a written review, found here - https://www.watchitallabout.com/nth-nacken-tikuna-watch-review/


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotta ask, why such low production numbers?


Because the DLC versions will be more expensive, and I don't want to end up with a lot of unsold DLC versions. The best way to do that is to make them super-limited.

Not my first rodeo, Hoss.

Trust me. I know what I'm doing here.



Davekaye90 said:


> Also, will the cases be sandblasted first before the DLC coat, like most cases are?


Uhm...first, where did you come by the info that "most" cases are sandblasted before the DLC coat?

I'm not saying they are, nor am I saying they aren't. But I am saying - I've seen the plating process (or at least, parts of it), but that was back in 2014, at the end of a long day/week, and I don't remember anything about sandblasting the parts first.

This is the best video explanation of the process I could find without spending more than a few minutes looking. It doesn't mention sand-blasting, but to be fair, I didn't see much if any mention of how the parts are prepared:






PVD and DLC coatings themselves can be finished in all the same ways a bare steel part can be - which is to say polished, brushed, or blasted. I don't think (but I honestly don't know if) the finished appearance is the result of the part being finished that way before the coating is applied. I think (but may be wrong in thinking that) the appearance is due to the finishing of the coating itself.

All that said, the factory's illustrations would suggest the DLC versions will be finished the same way the regular versions are - a mix of brushing and polishing, in the same places, which is how I'm expecting them to appear:


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Last of the reveals for the upcoming 2K1 Subs.
> 
> We're making a VERY limited number of the Thresher and the Swiftsure with a DLC case and bracelet (EDIT - both date and no-date for each).
> 
> ...


Would I be wrong in assuming the DLC models will be for the black dial versions only?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Would I be wrong in assuming the DLC models will be for the black dial versions only?


You would NOT be wrong.

Honestly, I'm not even sure you're truly bearded.

It could all be an elaborate ruse.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> You would NOT be wrong.
> 
> Honestly, I'm not even sure you're truly bearded.
> 
> It could all be an elaborate ruse.


Is THIS a ruse to get a picture of my ugly mug? Because I'll ****ing do it. Then everyone using tapatalk will see my face when they look at the NTH forum just like they had to see Davekayes AirzoresKing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Is THIS a ruse to get a picture of my ugly mug? Because I'll ****ing do it. Then everyone using tapatalk will see my face when they look at the NTH forum just like they had to see Davekayes AirzoresKing.


In all my years of observing watch-geeks, I can count on one hand the number of times I've thought, "Wow, he's handsome. Bet he does alright with the ladies."

We can skip the parade of mug-shots which would inevitably follow if you or anyone else were to post a selfie.

In honor of the mention of mug-shots though, here's my original WUS avatar, once People Magazine's "sexiest man alive":









PS - looks like the image-posting problem is now happening on my office machine, too, so I may not be posting a lot more pics until after the "moon leaves uranus" data migration this weekend.


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## Casualwatchguy (Feb 5, 2019)

Thought I'd share how my Amphion looks with a barracuda dial. It's very sexy. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fk9808 (Jun 25, 2020)

Stax watch any one


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Casualwatchguy said:


> Thought I'd share how my Amphion looks with a barracuda *bezel*. It's very sexy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


FTFY.

And I bet you didn't nearly destroy the case in the course of doing the insert swap.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fk9808 said:


> Stax watch any one


I staxed my watch once.

Couldn't wait to get it out, and it still hurts when I sit down.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

I really want a DLC Swiftsure no-date. But I also want to lose 20 lbs of fat and gain 10 lbs of muscle by year-end, and take my remolded self on a New Year’s Eve date with Scarlet Jo whilst wearing said watch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> I really want a DLC Swiftsure no-date. But I also want to lose 20 lbs of fat and gain 10 lbs of muscle by year-end, and take my remolded self on a New Year's Eve date with Scarlet Jo whilst wearing said watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can only help with the Swiftsure.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Out of curiosity, if you're willing to divulge, with such a limited release, are the DLC pieces being sold through a partner/retailer, or directly through the NTH site, or via random listings spread across AliEx/eBay/Chrono 24/Lionseek/Yahoo Auctions Japan/Rakuten/Etsy where you just say "go" and it's a treasure hunt that's first come, first serve?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Out of curiosity, if you're willing to divulge, with such a limited release, are the DLC pieces being sold through a partner/retailer, or directly through the NTH site, or via random listings spread across AliEx/eBay/Chrono 24/Lionseek/Yahoo Auctions Japan/Rakuten/Etsy where you just say "go" and it's a treasure hunt that's first come, first serve?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Just like every other production, they'll be offered to retailers first, and whatever retailers don't take will be available for sale on the NTH website.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> All that said, the factory's illustrations would suggest the DLC versions will be finished the same way the regular versions are - a mix of brushing and polishing, in the same places, which is how I'm expecting them to appear:


Talking to my vendor now (literally, at 12:40am - welcome to my world).

I can confirm the finish of the DLC cases will be the same as it is on the stainless cases - mostly brushed, with some thin polished surfaces.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Talking to my vendor now (literally, at 12:40am - welcome to my world).
> 
> I can confirm the finish of the DLC cases will be the same as it is on the stainless cases - mostly brushed, with some thin polished surfaces.


I think it was a black version of a Turtle I've seen pictures/videos of that was a mix of brushed and polished just like on a normal Turtle. More interesting than how I'd always imagined an all black watch would look.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> I can only help with the Swiftsure.


It's smaller than I thought.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

lvt said:


> It's smaller than I thought.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> I think it was a black version of a Turtle I've seen pictures/videos of that was a mix of brushed and polished just like on a normal Turtle. More interesting than how I'd always imagined an all black watch would look.


Know which version it was? The "Ninja Turtle" as far as I know has a matte black finish. Seiko's ion plated watches keep the finish of the SS ones, but they don't really look black, more gun metal. A mixed DLC finish does definitely look cool. I'm now even more jealous of you folks with the wrists to wear a 50+mm L2L watch.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

lvt said:


> It's smaller than I thought.


I was thinking the same thing. Guess that Black Widow suit had some extra "protection".


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm now even more jealous of you folks with the wrists to wear a 50+mm L2L watch.


As annoyed as I get hearing "40mm/42mm is too big!", "If it were 38mm, it'd be perfect, what were they thinking?!", I kinda feel bad for all the average to small wristed folk.

But then again, it does go both ways(just not as frequently I think). Theres some awesome 38mm watches out there that I'd buy in an instant if they were larger.


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## jmariorebelo (Jan 14, 2019)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm now even more jealous of you folks with the wrists to wear a 50+mm L2L watch.


I'm not. I mean, I am, but I have a hard enough time already trying to pick from the watches that do fit me. I don't need the extra indecision.



TheBearded said:


> As annoyed as I get hearing "40mm/42mm is too big!", "If it were 38mm, it'd be perfect, what were they thinking?!", I kinda feel bad for all the average to small wristed folk.
> 
> But then again, it does go both ways(just not as frequently I think). Theres some awesome 38mm watches out there that I'd buy in an instant if they were larger.


If your maximum size is 40mm, 38mm will look great but 42mm ridiculous.

You have to go down a long way for a watch to look ridiculous on you. But going up in size, it gets clown-like very fast.

I think I've seen one WUS user with a wrist so large a 38mm Max Bill looked just right on him, and that watch is all dial. I imagine a 38mm SKX013 would look childish. But apart from that one user I haven't seen any other instances of 38mm being factually too small. You may prefer it bigger, of course, but it wouldn't be offensively small.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

So, here we are. Something slightly different, and a version of the sub I haven't seen posted here yet (yay, special). I present, the Kiger Milsub Red Ronin.









The same sub case that we all know and love, A dial that looks a lot like an Amphion with maxi indices and sword hands. The whole watch reminds me a lot of the famous Oman Sea-Dwellers, with the crossed red swords, skull and text. If you don't know the Oman Sea-Dwellers, do yourself a favour and check them out, they are among the most unique vintage Rolexes out there. I am not a big fan of Merc hands on most watches, and so the switch to sword style hands really suits me, plus it harkens back to the original MilSub, with the same maxi plots layout.









It is similar to, but much more toned down, the Amphion Vintage Gilt that I just picked up. I was concerned that they would be too similar and that I would love one more than the other. While that may still happen after the honeymoon period(s), I feel side by side, they both have enough distinct character to warrant a place in my collection, with the Amphion taking more of a stand out role, and this being drastically more tool-y.

The inspiration behind the piece is the classic Japanese Kabuki play Chūshingura, or the tale of the 47 Ronin, loyal to their daimyo beyond death, and ties in nicely with the overall military cues used throughout.

I mentioned before that I was considering putting the Oberon v2 / MilSub bezel insert on the AVG, and thinking about it more I thought I could just do a straight swap of the two inserts (AVG with Kiger insert and Kiger with AVG insert)... but I did grow to like the fully indexed bezel on the AVG, so now I am not too sure about the whole undertaking anymore. Maybe instead I'll even do the opposite and just get the AVG insert for the Kiger... or leave both of them as the came into this world. ah, time will tell.

For now, I am happy to enjoy my two new subs, one more classy, the other a lot more rock 'n roll.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The appearance of the Kiger Milsub was indeed inspired by the Oman Submariners, with their red, crossed-sabers badges on the dials.

The Rolex Oman Story

That appearance was blended with the theme of the 47 Ronin story, and the "memento mori" theme all Kiger's share.

https://dailystoic.com/history-of-memento-mori/


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

jmariorebelo said:


> I'm not. I mean, I am, but I have a hard enough time already trying to pick from the watches that do fit me. I don't need the extra indecision.


This. It's like going out to eat when you have a dietary restriction. Lots of times, menus can be overwhelming, but if you're eating vegetarian, keto, gluten-free, etc., there's whole swaths of the menu you can ignore. Sometimes, less choice is better...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

jmariorebelo said:


> I'm not. I mean, I am, but I have a hard enough time already trying to pick from the watches that do fit me. I don't need the extra indecision.


For me that's not really the issue. Very few watches even interest me enough to want to buy them, and a much fewer number than that actually stick around. So it's not like my favorite Hermosa Beach Mexican place where everything on the menu sounds amazing and I don't know what to do. All of my kinda medium/sky blue watches - NTH>Aevig>Evant>Direnzo - have been attempts to scratch the itch caused by the blue Squale 60ATM, which is what I _really_ want, but is too big for me to wear. The Clean Ocean will be yet another attempt to scratch that at some point in the future. We'll see how that goes.

Case width I don't really worry about. I'm working on a Samurai project which is something like 44mm. It's that L2L that's critical. The Sammy is around 48mm or so, so it's wearable. A 42mm watch with a 50mm L2L and a flat lug profile, I can't do.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> The appearance of the Kiger Milsub was indeed inspired by the Oman Submariners, with their red, crossed-sabers badges on the dials.
> 
> The Rolex Oman Story
> 
> ...


funny you would link to the daily stoic.. I am currently reading Ryan Holidays second book 'Ego is the Enemy', and I am a patreon supporter of the Modern Stoicism  organisation. I also just read the original kabuki play of the 47 ronin story, which reads surprisingly easy for a 300+ year old story originally intended for puppet theatre.









(book on the bottom is Daniel Defoe's [of Robinson Crusoe fame, who, according the the book was from my home town] 'A journal of the plague year', which I wanted to read for years and finally had the motivation to pick up recently.. I wonder why that may be).

The size discussion is very interesting.. Is the lug to lug really that much more important than the diameter? I heard about it before, but never really believed it. I always considered more the diameter plus how much of the top side is dial vs. bezel. 40mm all dial can look very large.

edit - also as a follow up to my last question about strap option of my Barracuda. Mesh is super comfortable, but really not for me, it always feels to blingy. The Blue and gold-tone strap that was recently posted on the Carolina is the absolute bees knees


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> The size discussion is very interesting.. Is the lug to lug really that much more important than the diameter? I heard about it before, but never really believed it. I always considered more the diameter plus how much of the top side is dial vs. bezel. 40mm all dial can look very large.


My personal take...

Diameter, simply expressed as a number with no context, is often over-emphasized. A 38mm-40mm all-dial watch is going to wear very differently than something identical in diameter, but with a fixed or rotating bezel surrounding the dial, depending on the width of the bezel, but also the colors. In my observation, other dimensions (like thickness), weight, and even the lug-width can either minimize or accentuate the case diameter.

Thus, by itself, diameter is just a number, that doesn't tell us enough.

Knowing lug-length can help, but again, I think people often over-emphasize its relevance, particularly when there's no consideration of lug or case shape. A 52mm lug length can be very wearable, even on a smaller wrist, if the case and lugs are downward curved and elegantly shaped, whereas even 48mm or shorter lug-lengths can be too long on that same wrist, if the case and lugs are overly flat/straight and awkwardly shaped.

I found a 38mm explorer-style watch looked and felt too small on me, whereas a 39mm case which was closer to all-dial was fantastic, IMO. In both cases, it had nothing to do with the lug length, just the case size and design, though I think I'd have noticed it if either's lugs seemed too long or too short.

There are certain ratios in watch design which seem to be tried-and-true. Most obviously, lug width is usually 1/2 of case diameter, which looks "right", notwithstanding widespread disgust over odd-number lug widths (21mm lugs on a 42mm case, anyone?).

Less obvious, I've found that most cases with traditional shapes have diameters which are about 85% of lug-length, give or take. But I've also found that the variation here seems much wider than it is with the lug-width to case-diameter ratio. Higher ratios (shorter lugs) seem much more acceptable than lower ratios (longer lugs), but simply knowing that doesn't provide much context. Proper context is what we'd get if we actually looked at case design.

Looking at design - the DevilRay's short lug length (43mm case with 46mm lug length = 93.5%) works because it's a Turtle case.









That sort of lug length ratio would NOT work on the 2K1 Subs. The lugs NEED to be as long as they are (or very close) to maintain the case shape, and keep its proportions from becoming cartoonishly distorted. As proof - the 40mm Subs with a case shape everyone loves have 48mm lugs, for a ratio of 83% (a somewhat lower ratio, thus somewhat longer lugs).









The 43.75mm 2K1's have 51mm lugs, or a 86% ratio, meaning, proportionally, the 2K1's lugs are actually SHORTER (relative to case diameter).









Comparing the two Subs' case profiles, they're pretty similar, despite their different dimensions, and should be wearable for a wider range of wrist sizes, thanks to the curved-down case and lug shape. When we scale both cases to the same length, you can clearly see how much wider/shorter the 2K1 case is, compared to the 40mm Subs.









So, when people tell me 51mm is too long a lug length for the 2K1's, especially if they realize the case diameter, I politely tell them to STFU, and let someone who knows what he's doing design the watches, to include deciding what the dimensions should be.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> The size discussion is very interesting.. Is the lug to lug really that much more important than the diameter? I heard about it before, but never really believed it. I always considered more the diameter plus how much of the top side is dial vs. bezel. 40mm all dial can look very large.


I think so. My 40mm Oris D65 wears large because the bezel is so thin. The lugs are also pretty flat, but because the total length is only about 48mm, they don't overhang the edges of my wrist, and so I think the watch looks fine on me. My SDGC009 (41/49) is arguably over the limit, but because the lugs angle down sharply, I feel like I can kinda almost get away with it. Plus I love that watch too much to really care. My SKX wears smaller than both, because it's much more box shaped at 42/46. The Samurai is 44, but has about the same lug length as the Oris, so it fits fine. The 44/51 Squale though, nope. That would make me look like a kid trying to wear dad's watch.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> My personal take...
> 
> Diameter, simply expressed as a number with no context, is often over-emphasized. A 38mm-40mm all-dial watch is going to wear very differently than something identical in diameter, but with a fixed or rotating bezel surrounding the dial, depending on the width of the bezel, but also the colors. In my observation, other dimensions (like thickness), weight, and even the lug-width can either minimize or accentuate the case diameter.
> 
> ...


I'll disagree with you here, well on some points. Yes you may know how to design a watch case, but that doesn't change personal preferences with sizes and that some watch sizes just don't work on smaller wrists. Take the Squale 30 Atmos GMT, at 42mm and with a 49mm lug to lug length, this is just too big for me. It looks too big and feels like a brick. OK some will wear this on a similar wrist size and be fine and that's down to personal preferences. Interestingly I recently had a Seiko SPB077 and at 44mm you'd think that'd be just ridiculous for my puny wrists, but the case design is such that it wears no bigger than the Squale, but it was still too big. Like I was a 5 year old kid wearing his dad's watch, not a good look.....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

UPDATE ON THE NTH DEVILRAYS -

We're about 2-3 weeks behind schedule, mostly due to delays from covid-19. We're now hoping to ship the first batch in mid-July, and the second batch in early to mid-August.

Get on your closest NTH retailer's waiting list if you want one, as there may be none available directly from the NTH Website. List of retailers here - https://nthwatches.com/pages/authorized-retailers









The entirely proportional, not at all too-long-in-the-lugs 2K1 Subs are expected in September.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> I'll disagree with you here, well on some points. Yes you may know how to design a watch case, but that doesn't change personal preferences with sizes and that some watch sizes just don't work on smaller wrists. Take the Squale 30 Atmos GMT, at 42mm and with a 49mm lug to lug length, this is just too big for me. It looks too big and feels like a brick. OK some will wear this on a similar wrist size and be fine and that's down to personal preferences. Interestingly I recently had a Seiko SPB077 and at 44mm you'd think that'd be just ridiculous for my puny wrists, but the case design is such that it wears no bigger than the Squale, but it was still too big. Like I was a 5 year old kid wearing his dad's watch, not a good look.....


I think you misunderstood me.

I have no issue with anyone's personal preferences, derived from what they personally think looks good or right, nor do I take any issue with someone who finds that any watch simply *IS* too big on them, because of any or all dimensions.

My point was that the dimensions, by themselves, are often over-emphasized, particularly when there's no acknowledgement or consideration of other factors, such as case shape or other dimensions.

If your wrist is under 6", odds are a 51mm lug length, with any shape, may be too long for you. But, if your wrist is closer to average size (about 7" around), a 51mm lug length may or may not be too long, depending on other factors.

Simply saying (especially to me, the designer of this watch), that 51mm is "too long", for THIS WATCH, somewhat makes my blood boil.

It may be too long for YOU (the collective "you", not you, specifically), but I'd question your assumption, if your wrist is somewhat close to average size, and I completely reject the assertion that 51mm is "too long" for **THIS WATCH**, which has a diameter of 43.75mm, and was meant to have the traditional Sub shape.

Don't anyone tell me 51mm is too long for THIS WATCH, and that it ought to be shorter, and we'll get along fine, regardless of whether or not you want to keep an open mind about whether or not 51mm might be too long for YOUR WRIST.

EDIT - You actually don't appear to disagree with me at all, when you admit that the 44mm Seiko wears about the same as the 42mm Squale. They both may be too big on you, owing to your wrist size/shape or personal preferences, but that's not the point. The point is that the two watches wear about the same, despite their difference in diameter, owing to other factors.

Hence, diameter (just like lug length) are just numbers, and without context, don't tell us enough, resulting in my opinion that people often tend to over-emphasize the numbers, without giving enough consideration to the overall design and other factors.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I think you misunderstood me.
> 
> I have no issue with anyone's personal preferences, derived from what they personally think looks good or right, nor do I take any issue with someone who finds that any watch simply *IS* too big on them, because of any or all dimensions.
> 
> ...


We're on the same page then. I know that 40mm diameter watches are just about perfect for my wrist and tastes and I know that lug to lug lengths of over ~50mm are just never going to work for me, but that's me and my preferences. Just cause I love the design of a particular watch and it just happens to be too big isn't something that I can criticise the designer for. Sure I can moan about wanting it in a smaller size, but that's generally not going to get me anywhere. I just gotta look for designs that work for me.

I remember along time ago being slightly fixated on dimensions of watches and the relative proportions and trying to see if I could discern any pattern from the dimensions of watches, was there a magic ratio that would tally with my experiences? In the end no there isn't (you know all this already.....), it is so much more than some simple dimensions. Take the Seiko SPB077 case, that is a bit of black magic in that it just seems to melt in terms of the sheer diameter of the thing. Even side by side with a smaller 42mm watch it didn't seem to be bigger, crazy stuff. If I had the time and energy I'd love to get into understanding this all much more, but I don't have either the time or the energy..........


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> I think so. My 40mm Oris D65 wears large because the bezel is so thin. The lugs are also pretty flat, but because the total length is only about 48mm, they don't overhang the edges of my wrist, and so I think the watch looks fine on me. My SDGC009 (41/49) is arguably over the limit, but because the lugs angle down sharply, I feel like I can kinda almost get away with it. Plus I love that watch too much to really care. My SKX wears smaller than both, because it's much more box shaped at 42/46. The Samurai is 44, but has about the same lug length as the Oris, so it fits fine. The 44/51 Squale though, nope. That would make me look like a kid trying to wear dad's watch.


ha, nice examples. I thought that about the Oris before actually, just was never really able to put my finger on why that was. The SKX I _personally_ think wears pretty large, because it is boxy like you said, but also rather tall, especially with a domed crystal mod. The Samurai never gripped me enough for me to give it any serious attention. I do like the Sumo and Baby MM case styles, but I have never tried them on, so can't speak for how they would wear.. The SDGC009 I had to look up. Nice one, I thought on first glance it was a chrono. But your point about the down turned lugs is interesting. I always looked at it as a design element rather than anything that affects the way the watch wears. Unless we're talking Nomos. They need some guy in the company with an angle grinder to reign in those protrusions.



docvail said:


> View attachment 15248355


If nothing else, this image is super interesting for _proportions_, if not so much for size. Which I guess is what you've been talking about really. I think the DevilRay does get away with the shorter lugs, it would look off otherwise. Same for the 2K1, it does look very proportional.


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## jmariorebelo (Jan 14, 2019)

docvail said:


> I think you misunderstood me.
> 
> I have no issue with anyone's personal preferences, derived from what they personally think looks good or right, nor do I take any issue with someone who finds that any watch simply *IS* too big on them, because of any or all dimensions.
> 
> ...


I think I agree with your underlying reasoning but not particularly with your examples.

The good thing about L2L is that if my limit is 47mm, whatever the diameter might be, I know a L2L of 48mm will be too long. Going by maximum diameter, lets say of 36mm, might lead you to a L2L of 47mm with a Smiths PRS29, while a Farer Hudson is larger at 37mm but L2L is 39mm. L2L is a good starting point by itself.

However, this entire discussion is about personal preferences and how I/you/we want our watches to fit. What it certainly isn't (or shouldn't) be about is watch design. Personally I think all your watches are perfectly well design and proportionate, whether they fit me or not. I'd love the devilray to have 20mm lugs, but it just looks better with 22mm.

Of course, there are watches out there with... questionable design choices. Even if the lugs of a Nomos club fit 99% of people, they still are obnoxiously long and, to me, isn't harmonious and proportional design at all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> ha, nice examples. I thought that about the Oris before actually, just was never really able to put my finger on why that was. The SKX I _personally_ think wears pretty large, because it is boxy like you said, but also rather tall, especially with a domed crystal mod. The Samurai never gripped me enough for me to give it any serious attention. I do like the Sumo and Baby MM case styles, but I have never tried them on, so can't speak for how they would wear.. The SDGC009 I had to look up. Nice one, I thought on first glance it was a chrono. But your point about the down turned lugs is interesting. I always looked at it as a design element rather than anything that affects the way the watch wears. Unless we're talking Nomos. They need some guy in the company with an angle grinder to reign in those protrusions.
> 
> If nothing else, this image is super interesting for _proportions_, if not so much for size. Which I guess is what you've been talking about really. I think the DevilRay does get away with the shorter lugs, it would look off otherwise. Same for the 2K1, it does look very proportional.


Downturned lugs help, if not completely offset lug lengths which might otherwise be "too long".

This is also something that grinds my gears, when guys complain about male end-links "extending the lug length".

Shut. Up.

They don't, if the lugs and links curve downward.

The vast majority of wrists are neither perfectly round nor perfectly flat. They're more barrel-shaped, with flat-ish top and bottom surfaces, but rounded sides.

The barrel shape below is an approximation of my ~7" wrist. I measured the width and thickness of my wrist with calipers, as best I could, and came up with measurements of ~44mm thick x 58.5mm wide. If we just add those numbers up, as if my wrist was rectangular, they add up to 205mm, or roughly 8 inches, which is 1 inch larger than my wrist actually is, because it's rounded.









The red box is 48mm wide (the lug-length of the 40mm Subs). The Subs have a mostly flat bottom, but turn down sharply at the ends of the lugs, pretty much how most wrists are shaped.

My calipers show the 40mm Subs' male end-links bring the total to 52.12mm - over 1mm longer than the lugs on the 2K1 Subs. But, they're angled downward, just like the lugs, so their curve follows the curve of the wrist downward AND outward. The edges of the green box? That's 52.12mm.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that there's no such thing as lugs being too long for their wrist. Of course there is. I can replicate straight/flat lugs by moving the boxes upward, such that their bottom corners hang over the point at which the wrist starts to be less flat, more curved.









The point isn't that the dimensions don't matter. It's that the dimensions by themselves don't tell us enough, without knowing the shape associated with those dimensions.

We could have added 2mm to the DR's lugs, and it still would have worn about the same, if we continued the lines of the case downward. But, that likely would have thrown off the proportions, when viewed from the front, and made the watch "feel" bigger.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jmariorebelo said:


> I think I agree with your underlying reasoning but not particularly with your examples.
> 
> The good thing about L2L is that if my limit is 47mm, whatever the diameter might be, I know a L2L of 48mm will be too long. Going by maximum diameter, lets say of 36mm, might lead you to a L2L of 47mm with a Smiths PRS29, while a Farer Hudson is larger at 37mm but L2L is 39mm. L2L is a good starting point by itself.
> 
> ...


Look at my post above.

My wrist is 58.5mm across the middle. In theory, I could pull off a watch with lugs that long.

In reality, I'm pretty sure I can't, since it's very unlikely the curve of the lugs would precisely match the curve of my wrist. The flat part of my wrist is only about 43mm-45mm, and where my wrist really starts to curve downward, it's about 53mm-54mm.

Just going by the numbers, if the flat spot on my wrist is 43mm-45mm, then that should be the limit of the diameter I can comfortably wear, and my max lug length should be 53mm-54mm. But I know my preferences are really in the 40mm-42mm range, with 46mm-50mm lugs. I *CAN* wear a larger watch, but usually, I don't *LIKE* to.

There's a difference between what we CAN wear, and what we LIKE to wear.

As it happens, my watch with the largest dimensions is a 44mm Seiko Samurai, which has a relatively shorter lug length of 48mm. The shorter lug length should help make it more wearable, in theory. But in reality, the Samurai has other issues, like a caseback that protrudes enough to digs into my wrist, and a crown that sticks out too far from the case side, digging into the back of my hand.

I don't have that issue at all with Spectre II, which has identical 44mm x 48mm dimensions, thanks to the 4 o'clock crown (which is also not as wide), and a less obtrusive caseback.

If all I know is 44mm x 48mm, or any other two numbers, it's not enough. Even if you tell me the case thickness, it's still not enough. It's not enough if you add lug-width, and weight. The Samurai's 22mm lug width is proportionally perfect, and it isn't that thick or that heavy (mine is steel, but on a rubber strap).

Of course, there's a point where a single number could be more than enough to know. I know that anything more than 44mm/45mm is just going to be too big on me, regardless of the lug length, and I'm probably going to be hesitant to try anything with a lug length longer than 52mm, even if the lugs are curved downward.

But, the question asked was, "Is the lug to lug really that much more important than the diameter?"

In my personal experience, no, not only is lug-to-lug NOT that much more important than diameter, it's actually been LESS important (a bold claim, one I realize flies in the face of wisdom held to be sacred on these forums). All the watches I didn't like because of their size had more to do with their diameter being too small or too large than their lug lengths being too long.

(EDIT - I meant to add, that even when I consider the diameter, the bigger issue is the overall design. The Samurai's 44mm diameter isn't what makes it too wide for me, it's the crown digging into the back of my hand. It wasn't that 38mm was too small on me, it was that 38mm was too small in an Explorer style case.)

Yes, that's my PERSONAL OPINION, based only on my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, but at least I can support that opinion with logical analysis. All my personal experience and observation of this subject convinces me that all the dimensions are over-emphasized, at the expense of considering design.

I try to keep an open mind. I ask others to likewise reserve judgement based solely on one or two numbers.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let me add this, in case all of the above isn't persuasive enough...

Just consider the PROPORTIONS of the 2K1 case. Proportionately, its lugs are shorter, relative to its diameter, when compared to the same dimensions on the 40mm Subs, which NEVER get criticized for having lugs which are "too long".

Someone on FB asked me if the lugs of the 2K1 could be shorter, becuase 51mm was "too long".

I wanted to jump through the internet and choke a MF'er out.

Hell no, the lugs couldn't be made shorter, not without making what's already a somewhat squarish case even more square, and ruining its proportions. If the proportions of the 40mm Subs, which everyone seems to love, were applied to the 2K1, the lug length would be 52.5mm, not 51mm.

Why aren't they 52.5mm, instead of 51mm?

Because when we were designing, we all (Rusty, Aaron and I) cringed when we thought of making the lugs that long, even though it looked fine. For Rusty and Aaron, who are both normal sized humans, it was just a matter of knowing what lug length they like. For me, I knew that anything 52mm or longer would only increase the number of people complaining about the lug length being too long, so we shortened it to 51mm.

Think what you like, but I would bet A LOT of money that if the watch is too big on anyone's wrist, the real reason would be its diameter, not its lug length, ESPECIALLY since the lugs are curved downward, to hug the wrist, and actually more than 1mm shorter than the total length of the 40mm Subs, when you add in the male end-links.

So, my final answer - no, lug length isn't the most important dimension (I'm back to thinking diameter really is), and none of the dimensions are more important than the overall design.

Good design can offset less than perfect dimensions. Perfect dimensions will never offset crap design.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Pretty sure this debate has already been settled by our good friend BaronVonXander. https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

Disneydave said:


> Pretty sure this debate has already been settled by our good friend BaronVonXander. https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Classic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> So, here we are. Something slightly different, and a version of the sub I haven't seen posted here yet (yay, special). I present, the Kiger Milsub Red Ronin.
> 
> . . .


Def one of the more interesting and obscure Subs. Awesome pickup 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Know which version it was? The "Ninja Turtle" as far as I know has a matte black finish. Seiko's ion plated watches keep the finish of the SS ones, but they don't really look black, more gun metal. A mixed DLC finish does definitely look cool. I'm now even more jealous of you folks with the wrists to wear a 50+mm L2L watch.


May have been SBDY041...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> UPDATE ON THE NTH DEVILRAYS -
> 
> ...
> 
> The entirely proportional, not at all too-long-in-the-lugs 2K1 Subs are expected in September.


Nicely done. No tricky business here, just some more facts as part of this public service announcement.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

3WR said:


> May have been SBDY041...
> 
> View attachment 15249117


Yep, brushed top and polished sides. It's def black where the Samurai are gunmetal. Looking forward to picking up a no-date DLC Swiftsure or Thresher if possible. Like both of them.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Disneydave said:


> Pretty sure this debate has already been settled by our good friend BaronVonXander. https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Thank you for bringing that back into my life.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Downturned lugs help, if not completely offset lug lengths which might otherwise be "too long".
> 
> This is also something that grinds my gears, when guys complain about male end-links "extending the lug length".
> 
> ...


Yeah, IF the downcurve is steep enough to match the wrist.
Most aren't.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah, IF the downcurve is steep enough to match the wrist.
> Most aren't.


Add to that if the mid case is thin and the case back is relatively thick you'd need to curve those lugs like heck to get it to match nicely and then you'll still be left with a weird looking gap. Totally disagree with Doc on the male versus female SELs, female SELs DO make a difference......


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Case in point, demonstrated:















Do the male SELs drop down? Yes. Would the bracelet sit more flush to the wrist if it was a female SEL design? Yes (you can see the springbar holes very clearly - that's where the bracelet SHOULD drape down from.
Could these male endlinks drop down more, for a better fit? Yes. Do they? Not in this case, no, and in my experience, most don't.

Anyone want to tell me, on those pictures, that the male endlinks don't extend the effective lug to lug, can go pound sand, because *they obviously do*. Sure, it can be designed around/away to be less of a problem. But claiming that what is clearly seen in the photos here is impossible or somehow wrong is mistaken at best, or just plain disingenuous at worst.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> ha, nice examples. I thought that about the Oris before actually, just was never really able to put my finger on why that was. The SKX I _personally_ think wears pretty large, because it is boxy like you said, but also rather tall, especially with a domed crystal mod. The Samurai never gripped me enough for me to give it any serious attention. I do like the Sumo and Baby MM case styles, but I have never tried them on, so can't speak for how they would wear.. The SDGC009 I had to look up. Nice one, I thought on first glance it was a chrono. But your point about the down turned lugs is interesting. I always looked at it as a design element rather than anything that affects the way the watch wears. Unless we're talking Nomos. They need some guy in the company with an angle grinder to reign in those protrusions.


Yep, the D65 is almost all dial, so it looks quite big on wrist, even though in terms of dimensions it's roughly the same as an NTH Sub, which looks and wears a lot smaller. Part of that is lug shape, part of that is the Sub's much larger bezel and resultant smaller dial. The SKX is sort of a different kind of large. The rounded shape I think makes it seem narrower than some other 42s, and the stubby lugs don't take up much space. It's indeed a tall boy, which is one of the reasons I opted for a polished black bezel on a satin finish case. The contrasting colors and finishes I think disguise the height compared to a stock one.

Stock Samurais I'm also not a huge fan of, but the new "King Samurai" with the waffle dials and ceramic bezels are kinda cool. Mine is a really radical departure though. It's got an SKX coin-edge bezel on it, and a stealth black Submariner bezel insert. I was intending to put a Jade Monster dial in it, but am now going in a different direction with an SBDC077 dial.

Sumo is another odd duck. The lug width is really narrow for the overall case size, so you get these massive shoulders on it. It makes the Rolex Super case look reasonably proportioned.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Case in point, demonstrated:
> 
> View attachment 15249345
> View attachment 15249349
> ...


Perfect illustration of this!


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Interestingly all my watches have female SELs so I can't demonstrate the effect of male SELs, but to reinforce X2-Elijah's point any of these would look worse with male SELs.....




























For me the Helson looks like a superb fit and my experience backs that up. Interestingly out of the three the Oris looks the poorest fit, mainly because of the thin midcase and relatively thick case back.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Disneydave said:


> Pretty sure this debate has already been settled by our good friend BaronVonXander. https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Ok, that was effing hilarious


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

_pokes head out of bunker_

Is it safe yet?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Regarding size, lugs, SELs, etc.

I'm really glad I took a chance on an NTH sub. If I'd dwelled on the specs, I might not have picked out up, and would have lost out, trying an excellent watch which ends up fitting me very well, indeed. The L2L is on the outside of what I prefer. The male endlinks were a sticking point. But in person, the curve and effective drop of the endlinks play well with my wrist and I wouldn't give up the classic diameter/L2L proportions for otherwise.

Some watches surprise me with the fit and look vs. the specs. NTH Sub in a good way... and in my case, Khaki Field Mechanical in a bad way -- just too long, L2L for the diameter. Which is a shame, because it's an otherwise lovely watch.

As I said before, the Antilles v1 just didn't do it for me. It fit, but the dial just _looked_ to large to me, on my wrist. Not even going to bother with a 2K1 model. Much as I really, really like the designs, it _will_ be too large for me. OTOH, at this point, I'm positive a DevilRay would fit and look great.

I'm a big fan of the San Martin 6105 homage in bronze. Immediately picked up a v1 when they became available last summer, and loved it. Only real complaint was the bezel feel, which I traced down to a single-wire spring under the bezel, instead of the usual flat spring setup. They announced a v2, with improved bezel action and I took the opportunity to order one up with a custom BSH dial. They changed the case spec, apparently, it was a tad wider, from 44 to 44.5mm, but 2mm longer, L2L. Which was weird, because the springbar to springbar measurement, and 6-to-12 length, were exactly the same. It does wear at touch larger, but because of the few identical measurements where it counts, it fits about the same.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...this new forum look and operation...uhm...

This will take some getting used to.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

For those of you here, I have now done a case swap between my Amphion and Barracuda.










I think they have both come out quite nicely. Now to wear the Amphicudda and see how I get on.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

This is why I don't get why people talk about wrist size diameters, its the width of the wrist that matters. All wrist size diameter suggests is how many links to take out from the bracelet.

To get a proper fit, It comes down to your wrist width vs lug to lug + few mms if male end links + few mm beyond that so that the first bracelet link has room to lay on the top of the wrist then second to come down nicely.

Bracelet links are usually 2-3mm wide.
48mm lug to lug + 4mm if male endlinks + 4mm for bracelet links and you need at least 56mm wide wrist.
So yeah if you have a 54mm wide wrist in this situation you want the female end links.

I have a 7 inch wrist, 60mm wide.

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

DuckaDiesel said:


>


This is the other thing -- if you think female endlinks will matter in your world, get the BOP bracelet...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> So...this new forum look and operation...uhm...
> 
> This will take some getting used to.


Yep. So far uh....it's....different.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> So...this new forum look and operation...uhm...
> 
> This will take some getting used to.


Myeah.

If the "click thread title to go to the_* earliest unread*_ post" isn't re-enabled in the coming days, I might as well stop browsing the forum entirely... The "New" section is imo unusable.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Surprised you guys don’t use Tapatalk. 
Cant imagine how painful would it be using it in the browser. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Surprised you guys don't use Tapatalk.
> Cant imagine how painful would it be using it in the browser.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Why would I bother installing tapatalk on a linux computer? Or any regular laptop? (assuming they even have support for that)


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Why would I bother installing tapatalk on a linux computer? Or any regular laptop? (assuming they even have support for that)


I meant on mobile devices.
I have seen people make comments they use forum on mobile browsers but that may be in other treads. 
If I did not have tapatalk I would have not used this forum as much, mobile or desktop browser. 
Maybe the new platform will be better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> Interestingly all my watches have female SELs so I can't demonstrate the effect of male SELs, but to reinforce X2-Elijah's point any of these would look worse with male SELs.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NOTHING could make those look worse!

Wait, sorry, wrong thread. Wrong context. Just a courtesy bash.

That Squale looks nice.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lew and Huey Cerberus. Going OG today









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Myeah.
> 
> If the "click thread title to go to the_* earliest unread*_ post" isn't re-enabled in the coming days, I might as well stop browsing the forum entirely... The "New" section is imo unusable.


After staring at the new forum for a bit, I realized I had an "alert" by my avatar in the upper left corner. Apparently I've won a bunch of "trophies", but it also told me there were new posts in the couple of threads I follow. That may be the "new way"...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

dmjonez said:


> After staring at the new forum for a bit, I realized I had an "alert" by my avatar in the upper left corner. Apparently I've won a bunch of "trophies", but it also told me there were new posts in the couple of threads I follow. That may be the "new way"...


nah. The first unread post function works, its just the link in the thread title itself now. And you have to mark all forums as read at least once for it to kick in and start tracking.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> This is the other thing -- if you think female endlinks will matter in your world, get the BOP bracelet...


sure that's an option but it's quite an expensive option $150


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

JLS36 said:


> sure that's an option but it's quite an expensive option $150


And, of course those endlinks only work on that bracelet. Personally, I much prefer male endlinks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm on my phone now, using Tapatalk, where the look and operation appears unchanged. So that's a good thing.

Not sure how long it'll take me to get used to the new web browser view. So far, I'm not a fan.

And it appears to have deleted my signature image.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Welp, got my signature image back, so that's a good thing, though it appears to have shrunk a bit (must have been in the pool...).

I had to update my "Settings" bookmark. It used to show me when a thread I'd subscribed to had new posts. Now that just goes to my profile. Instead, the new bookmark is "Followed Threads".

Like I said, this will take some getting used to, but at least so far, it appears the double-posting issue has been eradicated.

One last random pic, for old times' sake...


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## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> I think they have both come out quite nicely. Now to wear the Amphicudda and see how I get on.


Pretty sure I spy a Seiko wave there.

Also: Chris, Have you tried the new "multi quote" response feature? You are gonna dig this the most, my-man.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

3WR said:


> NOTHING could make those look worse!
> 
> Wait, sorry, wrong thread. Wrong context. Just a courtesy bash.
> 
> ...


If ya want more crazy lugs how's about the Smiths Everest, I mean seriously look at the length of those lugs and then to add a male SEL on top of that stupidity......










But then look at the Armida A12, female SELs, check. Crazy loooooong lugs, check.....


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Everett464 said:


> Pretty sure I spy a Seiko wave there.
> 
> Also: Chris, Have you tried the new "multi quote" response feature? You are gonna dig this the most, my-man.


Well spotted, I was wearing my orange monster before making the swap, it was a hot day and my wrist had swelled up.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> So...this new forum look and operation...uhm...
> 
> This will take some getting used to.


Ditto. It's going to be 'different' for an old curmudgeon like me. Being a bit of a contrarian, I liked to have the newest posts in a forum/thread on the top, page 1. So whenever someone said 'see post above', it would be the post below. Just the way I preferred it. In the old site you could set how you wanted to read posts, oldest first or newest first. I'm not seeing that in this new version. Also, my avatar is really grainy. Guess I'll have to play with that.
Such is progress.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Everett464 said:


> Pretty sure I spy a Seiko wave there.
> 
> Also: Chris, Have you tried the new "multi quote" response feature? You are gonna dig this the most, my-man.


Show me more than one post worth quoting at a time, and I'll use try the multi-quote feature.

So far, the single-quote feature doesn't seem to be as intuitive, but again, I'm sure we'll all get used to it eventually.


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Show me more than one post worth quoting at a time, and I'll use try the multi-quote feature.
> 
> So far, the single-quote feature doesn't seem to be as intuitive, but again, I'm sure we'll all get used to it eventually.


Maybe i'm mixing you up with someone else - I felt like you regularly do roundup quote posts.


----------



## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> nah. The first unread post function works, its just the link in the thread title itself now. And you have to mark all forums as read at least once for it to kick in and start tracking.


thank you for this info. would have never guessed it. 
yup, it works just as you wrote above. the only "bad" thing is that you have to mark all threads as read even if you have not. That sets the reference & it takes you to the 1st under-read post in that thread. a little bit of a bummer as one does not know what info one missed out on when marking all threads as read...

there was one self-professed "curmugeon" who said "such is progress" - I call it "change".


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

First thing I did was change the forum to "dark mode". Much easier on my eyes

Pic from yesterday:


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I know I'm late to this restarted party.... But this is uh... Weird. Just need time to adjust I guess.

Edit: Points? Trophies? This is a game now? And did this place always have an option to "upgrade to premium"?


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Hey, not sure if you guys saw this NTH Nacken homage Tudor is putting out this year. Pretty cool!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Hey, not sure if you guys saw this NTH Nacken homage Tudor is putting out this year. Pretty cool!


"Wait 'till they get a load of me..."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Everett464 said:


> Maybe i'm mixing you up with someone else - I felt like you regularly do roundup quote posts.


Nope. You're thinking of me.

Pretty sure.

I just don't have a lot of stuff to which I feel compelled to respond. Thus, no multiquotes.

Yet.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Toonces said:


> Hey, not sure if you guys saw this NTH Nacken homage Tudor is putting out this year. Pretty cool!


Meh, Nacken has an extra 100M WR on the lil' prince.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Somebody said something about wouldn't it be nice if we had an easy way to view all the images anyone / everyone has added to a thread.

Yes, it would be.

But I can't tell you how many times I've gone looking for someone's post, either because of an image, or because the post was brilliant in some way (usually it was one of mine).

I'm happy to see the forum now has a way to bookmark those posts. I'm not sure if this is it, but I'm guessing it's that little "Save" icon at bottom right.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Somebody said something about wouldn't it be nice if we had an easy way to view all the images anyone / everyone has added to a thread.
> 
> Yes, it would be.
> 
> ...


You'll all be happy to know my family doesn't let me walk around with a big head.

Case in point, during tonight's dinner, my son brought up something I've been saying recently.

ME: "You know I'm right about that, though, right?"

HIM: "Yeah, but you're still an a**hole about it."

ME: "OMG that's awesome."

WIFE: "You know that's not a compliment, right?"

ME: "Well, you say that, but...."


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Toonces said:


> Hey, not sure if you guys saw this NTH Nacken homage Tudor is putting out this year. Pretty cool!


Am sure this is sarcasm but they are actually announcing the new BB58 in all blue tomorrow.
Its probably going to break the internet. There probably still wont be a half link on the bracelet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Am sure this is sarcasm but they are actually announcing the new BB58 in all blue tomorrow.
> Its probably going to break the internet. There probably still wont be a half link on the bracelet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You know, since NTH has created a shortage of the Näcken Modern Blue, it's not surprising that someone like Tudor would come along and put out an homage, although admittedly the Tudor movement will be less forgiving and require more frequent servicing.



Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> "Wait 'till they get a load of me..."
> 
> View attachment 15324745


Okay, that is the first image that has made me want a Thresher. I like the Subs so much that these new models may be too big, but now I am reconsidering.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

I haven't looked back at all the posts, but have y'all seen that there's a KS watch with the new Ronda R150 Auto movement being offered?
1291 Automatic Watch * NEW RONDA R150 AUTOMATIC * Swiss Made Only $312 U.S.
Godawful ugly to me, and way too big for a watch of this kind, so no way I'm getting it just for curiosity. But still interesting.

I remember Chris talking about, and discounting, Ronda as a viable source for movements once the Swatch smack-down is finally complete. But maybe this means that it might be an option for some micros.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Perdendosi said:


> I haven't looked back at all the posts, but have y'all seen that there's a KS watch with the new Ronda R150 Auto movement being offered?
> 1291 Automatic Watch * NEW RONDA R150 AUTOMATIC * Swiss Made Only $312 U.S.
> Godawful ugly to me, and way too big for a watch of this kind, so no way I'm getting it just for curiosity. But still interesting.
> 
> I remember Chris talking about, and discounting, Ronda as a viable source for movements once the Swatch smack-down is finally complete. But maybe this means that it might be an option for some micros.


I did see that, and I was intrigued. 
Then I saw the watch. Man, what a confused mess.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Actually I wasn't entirely joking. I think it's really interesting that Tudor is now making a sub that Doc essentially made 4 years ago with the Nacken.

I mean, the snowflake hands were borrowed, but the blue on blue, and square indices, are all pure Nacken.

I would like to get a Tudor at some point, and if I was going to buy one it would be the Nacken homage as I love that look. But I have a really, really hard time justifying spending $4k on a watch that, for all purposes, looks almost identical to my $600 NTH. Copy on the movement, finishing, etc., but still.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alright, mult-quote-palooza is now hapening...



DuckaDiesel said:


> Am sure this is sarcasm but they are actually announcing the new BB58 in all blue tomorrow.
> Its probably going to break the internet. There probably still wont be a half link on the bracelet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


A truly blue Black Bay seems like a no-brainer, especially at the BB58 size. I'm surprised it's taken them this long to do.

I can't wait for the first time someone posts a pic of the Barracuda Blue, and people start shouting that we ripped off Tudor.

I mean...I can NOT wait...

That said, I'm sure it will probably break the internet. It's the most obvious new release since...

Sorry, I got nothing. I can't remember a recent new release that was nearly as obvious.



larand said:


> You know, since NTH has created a shortage of the Näcken Modern Blue, it's not surprising that someone like Tudor would come along and put out an homage, although admittedly the Tudor movement will be less forgiving and require more frequent servicing.
> 
> 
> 
> Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


We'll make more.

Not looking to make it a debate, nor do I want to appear offended in any way (I'm not, in the least), but "created a shortage" isn't what happened.

We made a bunch of them. There was a time last year, when it seemed like we made TOO many, and I worried about how long it would take to sell them all (same with the Barracuda Vintage Black).

Since then, the industry went straight into the proverbial $hltter, followed by coronavirus leaning on the flush handle.

I've been proceeding cautiously since last year, but nevertheless, I'd point to the fact that we made another 25 pieces of the Nacken Modern Blue as part of the most recent release.

I don't have a crystal ball. I can't perfectly predict future demand. There will inevitably be times when we have a mismatch between supply and demand. If I have to choose between possibly making too few, and possibly making too many, that's a very easy choice for me to make.



Perdendosi said:


> I haven't looked back at all the posts, but have y'all seen that there's a KS watch with the new Ronda R150 Auto movement being offered?
> 1291 Automatic Watch * NEW RONDA R150 AUTOMATIC * Swiss Made Only $312 U.S.
> Godawful ugly to me, and way too big for a watch of this kind, so no way I'm getting it just for curiosity. But still interesting.
> 
> I remember Chris talking about, and discounting, Ronda as a viable source for movements once the Swatch smack-down is finally complete. But maybe this means that it might be an option for some micros.


I hadn't seen it.

This is kind of catty, but screw it, that guy's a dlck...

The project creator was once a member of the microbrand watches group on Facebook, where he was unbelievably arrogant towards other brand owners (I'm aware of the irony here, leave it alone).

Eventually, he was outed as doing nothing more than pasting his logo on ready-made designs by some "your logo here" watch supplier in Europe, leading to his being booted from the group.

As for the Ronda...

I'm sincerely hopeful that it turns out to be a viable alternative to ETA/STP/Selitta. Not because that guy is using it, but because the industry benefits from more choice in movements.

On paper, since they're a huge, well-funded company, Ronda would seem to be uniquely qualified to produce a reliable mechanical movement in volume. Unfortunately, thus far, they look like the manufacturer that couldn't shoot straight.

As of the 2018 show, they still didn't have firm numbers on their annual production capacity or lead times, but thought they would be able to deliver "more than 5,000 units by late 2019" (that's a very accurate paraphrasing of what they told me).

5k units per year is virtually nothing. It doesn't help build my personal hopes when I hear industry rumors that the reason they've been taking so long to bring it to market (after announcing it in March 2016) was because it was "unstable", which is a polite way of saying they bought a Chinese-made calibre and can't figure out how to make it reliable.

Hey Ronda, Miyota called. They don't want anything back. They just wanted to see how that drop-in ETA replacement is working out for you.



TheBearded said:


> I did see that, and I was intrigued.
> Then I saw the watch. Man, what a confused mess.


Don't blame the brand, blame the company that made the watch they slapped their logo onto.



Toonces said:


> Actually I wasn't entirely joking. I think it's really interesting that Tudor is now making a sub that Doc essentially made 4 years ago with the Nacken.
> 
> I mean, the snowflake hands were borrowed, but the blue on blue, and square indices, are all pure Nacken.
> 
> I would like to get a Tudor at some point, and if I was going to buy one it would be the Nacken homage as I love that look. But I have a really, really hard time justifying spending $4k on a watch that, for all purposes, looks almost identical to my $600 NTH. Copy on the movement, finishing, etc., but still.


Don't take this as patronizing. That's not how this is meant.

Are you unaware that the Nacken was inspired by the Tudor "Snowflake" Subs of the late '60's and early '70's? That pic you posted appears to be one.

Are you saying someone posted that pic, as if it's a preview of a NEW Tudor release? That seems unlikely, as it would seem to compete with their Pelagos models, and the BB58 (assuming it's ~40mm), and the Rolex Submariner.

I admit I haven't been paying attention to the industry news lately. Just from the posts to this thread in the last half-day, I gather that Tudor is releasing a blue BB58, which I assume means a blue dial/blue bezel and gilt hands/markers, not just a blue bezel on the black dial, like with the Black Bay Blue.

Although, now that we're talking about it, I suddenly remember seeing someone post a pic of one to Facebook, and now I feel like I should go find a pic so I know what the hell I'm talking about, because I'm thinking it is in fact just a BB58 with a blue bezel.

Here we go...










So...I'm sure what it lacks in looks, it makes up for in quality...

I'm sorry. The BB58 is a nice looking watch. This is...well, it's not unattractive, but I think the sunburst blue dial of the Barracuda Blue looks better.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, of course.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Sorry. You're right Doc. I should have read the thread more closely. I'm pulling this from the old F2. Folks were speculating on the new Tudor release. It seems to be a blue BB58, which is totally obvious and safe and awesome.

The pic I posted, I thought that was a preview of the release; clearly I was wrong. Regardless, yes, I'm aware of the background of the Nacken. I'm a fan that it's a "homage" and not a copy of any particular model. In fact, it is by definition a "homage" in that it gives credit to multiple inspirations, IMO.

I just thought it was funny when speculation led to people proposing a Tudor model that looked like the Nacken. Meh, I might have gotten ahead of myself. These things happen.

This is what appears to be a leak of the new release:


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

It would have been cooler with square indices.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Although, now that we're talking about it, I suddenly remember seeing someone post a pic of one to Facebook, and now I feel like I should go find a pic so I know what the hell I'm talking about, because I'm thinking it is in fact just a BB58 with a blue bezel.
> 
> Here we go...
> 
> ...


That isn't the watch, it's somebody's photoshop mock up. As far as I know, there are no official photos yet of the watch.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> This is what appears to be a leak of the new release:


If that is indeed the real thing, which seems much more likely than the last photo, eh. It's "fine" and I'm sure Tudor will have no trouble selling them out. I'm unmoved by it, though.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Toonces said:


> This is what appears to be a leak of the new release:


Thats the one.
It will definitely be a hit and as much as I like Tudor (actually have Pelagos LHD) and appreciate that Rolex is trying to somewhat recreate the watches they used to make with a twist.
That twist screws everything up, for me at least.
Riveted bracelets, oversized cases, no half links... And on top of that their QC is questionable.
They still did not fix the date issue on the GMTs, lume is falling out of inserts, text is falling off the dials, dust under the crystal... 
I have not worn my Pelagos in months because I just cannot get the bracelet sized the way I want to, I should not have to sacrifice the basic feature like this...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> It would have been cooler with square indices.


Then it wouldn't be a BB58, it'd be a Pelagos58.



Davekaye90 said:


> That isn't the watch, it's somebody's photoshop mock up. As far as I know, there are no official photos yet of the watch.


I've just seen official photos. You appear to be correct, in that the pic I posted does seem to be someone's mock-up.

This appears to be the real thing, according to the guy who posted it on FB, who is apparently expecting to receive one he ordered.












Davekaye90 said:


> If that is indeed the real thing, which seems much more likely than the last photo, eh. It's "fine" and I'm sure Tudor will have no trouble selling them out. I'm unmoved by it, though.


I have no doubt Tudor will sell them all, assuming they're made in relatively low volume and priced at 1/3 of what a steel Submariner costs.

Matte dial. Not Sunburst. No gilt, just stainless hands and markers. Five lines of dial text, or six, if you count the obligatory inclusion of "Swiss Made" at 6 (as if "Geneve" under "Tudor" might have people thinking they might mean Geneva, Ohio, or someplace equally pedestrian and imaginary).

I have to laugh - guys who review watches on YT and FB comment (and others comment, in the comments section) that for what NTH charges, we should include a ceramic bezel insert, or a deeply engraved caseback, etc.

For what NTH charges? C'mon. Tudor's not exactly pouring goodies upon goodies into the Black Bay.

Ah well. I'm sure the watch is very nice. I should hope so, assuming it'll likewise be $3700.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Matte dial. Not Sunburst.


All I ever see is people oohing and aahing over sunburst, but I routinely go with black dials because the blue usually have sunburst finishes.

I think I'm the only WUSer who prefers matte blue to sunburst.


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ You're not, friend.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We make some matte dials. We make some sunburst dials. Different horses for different courses, as they say.

My collection is home to both, FWIW.

I just think it's interesting to see people get lathered up by some watches, which would be entirely overlooked if not for the brand name associated with them.

I think the blue BB58 is one of them.

Nothing against Tudor. I think the black BB58 is a nice-looking watch. I really like the Pelagos. I'm a fan of several Rolex/Tudor designs, but all of them have more visual interest than this one.

I'm just not a fan.


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## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I have to laugh - guys who review watches on YT and FB comment (and others comment, in the comments section) that for what NTH charges, we should include a ceramic bezel insert, or a deeply engraved caseback, etc.


Nearly every interview we do, regardless of the brand or the general price-point the brand adheres to, elicits comments regarding all the reasons the watch is over-priced. It's always something

We had Lauren and Lorenzo Ortega on recently, and they talked about how their commitment to acrylic wound up costing them more money (in case design) than sapphire would have. To be clear, they werent arguing that acrylic was better; they just liked it and wanted to put it in to their watches. After the show, we had TWO separate people message us insisting that they must have been lying to justify cheaping out on the crystal. ?

The chase for the lowest common denominator is real (and depressing).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Everett464 said:


> Nearly every interview we do, regardless of the brand or the general price-point the brand adheres to, elicits comments regarding all the reasons the watch is over-priced. It's always something
> 
> We had Lauren and Lorenzo Ortega on recently, and they talked about how their commitment to acrylic wound up costing them more money (in case design) than sapphire would have. To be clear, they werent arguing that acrylic was better; they just liked it and wanted to put it in to their watches. After the show, we had TWO separate people message us insisting that they must have been lying to justify cheaping out on the crystal. ?
> 
> The chase for the lowest common denominator is real (and depressing).


I've said this in various ways, in various places, but it's been a while, so...

The problem with the "overpriced" thing is that consumers have no way to judge, other than by comparing to something else which seems comparable, but has a different price.

It would be better if the two things being compared were identical in every way, including intangibles such as service. A good example is a Seiko SKX007 from two different sellers on Amazon. It's the same watch, available from the same marketplace, with the same rules. That's a more or less apples-to-apples sort of comparison.

But even in that scenario, the one that costs more may not necessarily be "overpriced'. It's just as _possible_ that the lesser priced one might be UNDERpriced. The only way to judge would be to broaden our view, and survey the market more widely.

If 9 out of 10 are selling for ~$200, and one is selling for $150, isn't it more accurate to say the $150 one is UNDERpriced, or simply a great deal, than to accuse the other 9 of being "overpriced"?

Once you start comparing all watches based on specs and components, with no regard for design, quality, service, etc, the comparisons aren't in any way apples-to-apples, and are all just opinions, highly subjective ones.

Everyone seems to find a way to rationalize their own purchases as being "wise", regardless of what it costs, but these same people will say something is "overpriced" if they don't like it.

Beyond that, even if someone thinks they're expert enough to draw a reasonable comparison, they still have no idea what the brand's production and operating costs are. They don't know if they're comparing a brand being run at a loss to a brand being run at a profit. Many brands are being run at minimal, if any profit, and some are actually losing money.

If we (brand owners) all had to price our products according to what our lowest-cost-competitors were doing, none of us would make a profit, and we'd all go out of business.

Think something is overpriced (or, to put it another way, you don't like it enough to rationalize buying it)? Okay, don't buy it. It's not Obamacare. You're not legally required to buy it.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Matte dial. Not Sunburst. No gilt, just stainless hands and markers. Five lines of dial text, or six, if you count the obligatory inclusion of "Swiss Made" at 6 (as if "Geneve" under "Tudor" might have people thinking they might mean Geneva, Ohio, or someplace equally pedestrian and imaginary).
> 
> I have to laugh - guys who review watches on YT and FB comment (and others comment, in the comments section) that for what NTH charges, we should include a ceramic bezel insert, or a deeply engraved caseback, etc.
> 
> ...


The lack of a sunburst finish is definitely a major reason why I'm unmoved by it. I know they aren't for everybody, but as I am now whittling my collection down to just four core pieces, I've found that watches I've had with matte dials never seem to stick around. The Huldra was the last holdout because Chip did such a good job with the color, but even that watch eventually just lost out too many times to my SARBKX and two-tone Oris.

Hey it could be worse. It could have _seven _lines on the dial like the in-house Pelagos does. Something I've always found amusing about the caseback thing is that Rolex gets a total pass on that.....because reasons. If a micro doesn't have an engraved dolphin bouncing a beach ball while jumping through a hoop on the back of the watch, well that's them being cheap. Rolex's sterile casebacks though, totally fine.

I think you should market the mostly empty NTH caseback as a feature. "E-Z clean caseback." Deeply engraved casebacks are harder to clean, which just makes them annoying. I don't care about the dolphin, or the dancing monkey, or the diving bell, or whatever other "art" is on the back. Just don't make me have to scrub 3X harder to get the sunscreen off.

It will be interesting to see if this launch is a repeat of the black version, meaning 6 month wait times, and flippers asking $4800.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I just don't have a lot of stuff to which I feel compelled to respond. Thus, no multiquotes.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Having held, fondled, and tried on a Tudor, I can see why some people would be willing to splash out what they do for a Rolex also-ran. All the quality and less than half the price? Sign me up!

Get into watches a bit, and suddenly there are sub $2k watches I'd be looking at for comparable quality and decent design.

I'm not specifically a Submariner fanboi -- it's not a grail for me, nothing I aspire to own, just doesn't inspire me. And neither does any of what Tudor has to offer. There are other submariner homages out there, but my upper limit for this case and design style appears to stop where NTH watches are priced.

Where pricing is concerned, I've ended up in the solidly under $1k, affordables range. Currently the most expensive watch I own is an NTH, a Scorpene Nomad which I modded with an Amphion Commando bezel insert.

To put the price in perspective: A Big Number, Sinn-style aviator dial and handset watch with a 12hr bezel represents exactly what I wanted in a watch. To the point that I started pricing out a mod SKX build which would approximate a Sinn 857 with 12hr bezel insert. On the cheap (dial, handset, bezel insert), I was up to $350, and with some upgrades (chapter ring, bezel, sapphire, movement, crown, bracelet...), well over $500. I approached a WUS-popular watchmaker to do this build and was quoted $650. And in the end? A larger, less elegant watch, with an arguably inferior movement, than I could buy off the shelf from NTH.

Things are a bit different now. I could start out with an Islander of SKX, Turtle, or Sumo ilk, do a dial and hand swap, and be done at less than $400, all in. But it would still be larger a watch, and actually more directly derivative where the case design is concerned, than an NTH.

_shrug_ Watches are worth what the market will pay for them, and NTH keeps selling out subs at their pricing, without speculator runs on inventory and resale prices higher than MSRP. Sounds like they are priced about right to me...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> If ya want more crazy lugs how's about the Smiths Everest, I mean seriously look at the length of those lugs and then to add a male SEL on top of that stupidity......
> 
> View attachment 15324540
> 
> ...


That Armida... yikes.

Is that the 40mm Everest?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

3WR said:


> That Armida... yikes.
> 
> Is that the 40mm Everest?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yikes indeed for the Armida and interesting how small changes in the geometry make a huge difference......

And yes it was the 40mm Everest and I hated it. Horrible watch tbh.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Only since we seem to be discussing Tudor currently...

I really like the looks and features of the Pelagos, but not its size. The case has the slab-sided look all Tudors seem to share, which I don't especially love, but think I cold overlook. I'd really love it if there was a no-date option.

I really like the size of the BB58, and that it's available without a date. I prefer the square markers of the Pelagos, but I'm not sure if I prefer the Pelagos's monochrome color scheme, or the BB58's black-n-gilt. Again, it's a bit more slab-sided than it seems like it ought to be, and for comparable money, it doesn't seem as feature-rich as the larger Pelagos.

In the end, I don't think I could rationalize buying either, considering their prices, and knowing neither checks off all the boxes in all the right ways.

In many ways, the watches we produce are a means to solve some of the complaints we have with others.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Yikes indeed for the Armida and interesting how small changes in the geometry make a huge difference......
> 
> And yes it was the 40mm Everest and I hated it. Horrible watch tbh.


I'm honestly sad to read that. The unfortunate falling out I had with Eddie notwithstanding, I always liked the 40mm Everest, well enough to consider getting one at various times (not recently, of course).


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm honestly sad to read that. The unfortunate falling out I had with Eddie notwithstanding, I always liked the 40mm Everest, well enough to consider getting one at various times (not recently, of course).


I'm sure there are folks that love it, but I found it incredibly disappointing. The dial was dull and the bracelet heavy and lacking finesse (could have been thinner like the NTH) and ***** those lugs. I think that the lug to lug measurement was 52mm? Crazy....

On your previous post re Tudor and Pelagos vs bb58, I had a Pelagos and it is too slabby like all the larger black bays, the bb58 cures and that and bar a gripe on the colours I'd say it was perfect. But then I'd still prefer a NTH Barracuda Vintage Black, better value proposition......


----------



## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hey guys,

New to the brand and I'm wondering does anyone know if you can get Subs on the beads of rice bracelet as standard instead of the 3-link?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

jjmc87 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> New to the brand and I'm wondering does anyone know if you can get Subs on the beads of rice bracelet as standard instead of the 3-link?


Nope. Has to be ordered separate, at the moment. Doc mentioned it as maybe an option thing when ordering in the future, but no specifics, and it may be into next year before another run of subs, where it would even be an issue.

That said, on paper, I should like the BOR bracelet better, but in reality, I much prefer the 3-link stock bracelet.


----------



## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Nope. Has to be ordered separate, at the moment. Doc mentioned it as maybe an option thing when ordering in the future, but no specifics, and it may be into next year before another run of subs, where it would even be an issue.
> 
> That said, on paper, I should like the BOR bracelet better, but in reality, I much prefer the 3-link stock bracelet.


Thanks mate, very good to know.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> To put the price in perspective: A Big Number, Sinn-style aviator dial and handset watch with a 12hr bezel represents exactly what I wanted in a watch. To the point that I started pricing out a mod SKX build which would approximate a Sinn 857 with 12hr bezel insert. On the cheap (dial, handset, bezel insert), I was up to $350, and with some upgrades (chapter ring, bezel, sapphire, movement, crown, bracelet...), well over $500. I approached a WUS-popular watchmaker to do this build and was quoted $650. And in the end? A larger, less elegant watch, with an arguably inferior movement, than I could buy off the shelf from NTH.
> 
> Things are a bit different now. I could start out with an Islander of SKX, Turtle, or Sumo ilk, do a dial and hand swap, and be done at less than $400, all in. But it would still be larger a watch, and actually more directly derivative where the case design is concerned, than an NTH.
> 
> _shrug_ Watches are worth what the market will pay for them, and NTH keeps selling out subs at their pricing, without speculator runs on inventory and resale prices higher than MSRP. Sounds like they are priced about right to me...


Once you get deep into the weeds with Seiko modding, any pricing rationality goes straight out the window. My SARBKX is at around $460 or so, just in parts, and that includes the SKX being around $200 back when I bought it, and the SARB059 dial being readily available and inexpensive. Those days are gone. I bought a Marinemaster dial from WPP for something like $100. Good luck with that now. Add another $50 for bead blasting the case. Paying a watchmaker to put it together, you're now at the price of an NTH Sub, for a watch with absolutely inferior specs.

The difference is that it's a one-off, exactly the way I want it. That's what you're ultimately paying for. If ~$650 for an SKX sounds crazy, my Samurai mod is well past that. I'm starting with a Namoki Samurai>SKX case which makes a lot more sense than using a factory Samurai, but all that sense goes out the window because I just bought an SBDC059 _for its dial. _Yep. I'm that guy. More than the price of an NTH Sub, _for a dial. _I'll also be using the 6R15 from that watch, and I hope to recover some of the money by selling the rest of it as watch parts, but still.

The payoff though is a _truly _one of a kind Samurai, that I'm certain will be unique in the world. I've seen plenty of other SARBKX mods, none exactly like mine, but at least close. I've never seen anyone do anything close to this, though.

I've always said that I thought NTH pricing was very fair. They aren't "bargains", and they aren't in any way overpriced for what you're getting. Doc knows he has a high quality product, and he asks a reasonable amount for it. I don't think you can really ask for more than that.


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## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Nope. Has to be ordered separate, at the moment. Doc mentioned it as maybe an option thing when ordering in the future, but no specifics, and it may be into next year before another run of subs, where it would even be an issue.
> 
> That said, on paper, I should like the BOR bracelet better, but in reality, I much prefer the 3-link stock bracelet.





jjmc87 said:


> Thanks mate, very good to know.


And for a contrary perspective, I adore the BOR (or as we call it around here, BOP, "Beads of Poop"... long story). It elevated my Nacken Renegade from a really nice diver that I'd wear on the weekends and with some businessy casual clothes to an interesting, elegant watch that works (almost) beach to (almost) boardroom.

I wrote a post about it, but I have no idea where it is now. 
Here are some photos


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Perdendosi said:


> And for a contrary perspective, I adore the BOR (or as we call it around here, BOP, "Beads of Poop"... long story). It elevated my Nacken Renegade from a really nice diver that I'd wear on the weekends and with some businessy casual clothes to an interesting, elegant watch that works (almost) beach to (almost) boardroom.
> 
> I wrote a post about it, but I have no idea where it is now.
> Here are some photos
> ...


Great photos!! I also wore my Nacken Renegade this past weekend on the BOR bracelet. Looks amazing in that configuration.

Sent from a van down by the river...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Once you get deep into the weeds with Seiko modding, any pricing rationality goes straight out the window.


Tell me about it. I wanted an SKX011 dial for a SNK mod project and could not find a legit dial at a reasonable price... So when a decent SNXS77 turned up, used, I got a new SKX011. Let me 'splain...

The other mod I wanted to do was an SNXS77 dial and hands in an SKX case. Having neither an SNXS77, nor an SKX, I put the mod on hold, kept searching for an 011 dial. But then an SNXS77 came up use, cheap, and once that was in hand, no-brainer to order the SKX011. How sick is it to take a perfectly good BRAND NEW WATCH and take it apart...? Dial went into the SNK case, SKX was upgraded with chapter ring, sapphire, coin edge bezel, stainless 12hr insert, and the whole guts from the SNXS. I'm not quite as much into it as a new Nodus Contrail SS in blue would have cost, but I've seen them go used for less... Probably could have got that new Hamtun release for cheaper, too... Oh well.

NTH content: I finished off the SKX mod with a Lew & Huey Spectre bracelent...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Tomorrows task over lunch...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This combo is just stunning.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jjmc87 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> New to the brand and I'm wondering does anyone know if you can get Subs on the beads of rice bracelet as standard instead of the 3-link?


We don't currently offer any of the Subs on the BOR, but then, we don't have any watches available for sale anyway (other than those in the Nearly New section).

That said, Watch Gauge and Serious Watches both have the BOR's for sale, and either might be willing to accommodate the request, with the understanding that the watch would cost $25 more when fitted with the BOR bracelet.

And, as Mike said, we are planning to offer a choice of bracelet the next time we have a new release of the 40mm Subs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

How bout dat?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> How bout dat?
> 
> View attachment 15326705


Yeah. I'll be buying this.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

+1

I really like one of the black dial versions, just cant remember which one was it lol.
Love the size of the crowns!
Cant stand small crowns that I cant get a grip on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Baby feet approved 👍


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> How bout dat?
> 
> View attachment 15326705
> 
> View attachment 15326710


Yes please.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> +1
> 
> I really like one of the black dial versions, just cant remember which one was it lol.
> Love the size of the crowns!
> ...


I got you, fam...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> +1
> 
> I really like one of the black dial versions, just cant remember which one was it lol.
> Love the size of the crowns!
> ...


Was it the Thresher?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Did I mention we're doing a 22mm-18mm taper on the 2K1's?


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Was it the Thresher?
> 
> View attachment 15326887
> 
> ...


Yup thats the one.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Did I mention we're doing a 22mm-18mm taper on the 2K1's?


Thanks. I hate it.

I'm still buying one though.

I've only got one 22-18, but it's a black leather. Came with my Alpina. It was immediately(well it survived for about 2 minutes)removed and replaced with a straight 22mm single pass. It just had too much "lollipopping" going on. Narrow strap, 42mm all dial, just didn't like it. Maybe, just maybe, it'll work with a bracelet. Fingers crossed.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Thanks. I hate it.
> 
> I'm still buying one though.
> 
> I've only got one 22-18, but it's a black leather. Came with my Alpina. It was immediately(well it survived for about 2 minutes)removed and replaced with a straight 22mm single pass. It just had too much "lollipopping" going on. Narrow strap, 42mm all dial, just didn't like it. Maybe, just maybe, it'll work with a bracelet. Fingers crossed.


Seriously?

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm keeping track of who says what about anything, but for all the people who've been pissing in my ear to do a larger taper on the bracelet, I thought the 22-18 news would be met with cheers of joy.

The 22mm-20mm taper on my larger watches has never bothered me, and I like it better than a straight bracelet. I'm curious to see how I feel about the 22-18.

If it sucks, don't blame me. Blame your fellow watch geeks. I thought I was just giving the people what they asked for.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More good news - we figured out a way to get more definition around the center-section of the end-links.

We'll be adding that feature to future iterations of the 40mm Subs, too.

Here's hoping that's the last I have to hear @hwa kvetch about CNC-machined end-links.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm keeping track of who says what about anything, but for all the people who've been pissing in my ear to do a larger taper on the bracelet, I thought the 22-18 news would be met with cheers of joy.
> 
> ...


Dont misunderstand my crotchety ass. The unwashed masses asked for it, so you obliged. I have no problem whatsoever with that. Admire it even. A 4mm taper is just not my bag of tea. Whether I'm in the minority there or not, only time will tell.

I've had one, one singular experience with a 22-18mm, and it was not a braclet, with cuts, grooves, angles, and light play over it. So I very well may love the new bracelet. But if I dont, I won't be disappointed. I'll just get it a killer custom strap or two. I'm buying the watch because I like the case, the dial, the handset, and the finishing that your brand provides. Not to mention the warranty and customer service/interaction. Though I can't lie, the looks of the original subs drew me in, but you being the friendly neighborhood ******* who lays it out there and tells it like it is is what hooked me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Dont misunderstand my crotchety ass. The unwashed masses asked for it, so you obliged. I have no problem whatsoever with that. Admire it even. A 4mm taper is just not my bag of tea. Whether I'm in the minority there or not, only time will tell.
> 
> I've had one, one singular experience with a 22-18mm, and it was not a braclet, with cuts, grooves, angles, and light play over it. So I very well may love the new bracelet. But if I dont, I won't be disappointed. I'll just get it a killer custom strap or two. I'm buying the watch because I like the case, the dial, the handset, and the finishing that your brand provides. Not to mention the warranty and customer service/interaction. Though I can't lie, the looks of the original subs drew me in, but you being the friendly neighborhood ***** who lays it out there and tells it like it is is what hooked me.
> 
> View attachment 15326960


It has occurred to me that I could be making an unforced error.

I was fine with 2mm tapers on all models' bracelets. I resisted making a 4mm taper because I feared as many or more people would NOT like it than those who WOULD like it, and the people who disliked it might be less likely to NOT buy it than those who would have liked it would be to NOT buy it had we simply left well enough alone and kept the 2mm taper.

This is the $hlt that makes me want to disregard any and all feedback. It's not that you or any other individual customer will complain, it's that I'll be fooled into thinking there's more demand for something than there is, and I'll fix something that wasn't broken, resulting in something that more people like less than they would have had I just followed my gut.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> More good news - we figured out a way to get more definition around the center-section of the end-links.
> 
> We'll be adding that feature to future iterations of the 40mm Subs, too.
> 
> Here's hoping that's the last I have to hear @hwa kvetch about CNC-machined end-links.


This is excellent news. When will this new batch of subs with these new endlinks come out?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Perhaps it's the wee wristed folks who are so keen on the 4mm taper? 

I've said it before, but 40mm dia(yeah yeah the whole recent L2L, male/female endlink discussion be damned) is my very lower limit. I've got a hair over a 7.5" wrist, and yes, I prefer " bigger" watches. As a matter of fact, my only 40mm watches are my NTHs. Both get wrist time every week. But to MY eyes, the drastic taper of that Alpina strap made it look like a popsicle stick on my wrist. 

But again. I'm still buying that white dial Swiftsure. If the bracelet isn't my cuppa, maybe someone here would want it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> This is excellent news. When will this new batch of subs with these new endlinks come out?


Stay tuned...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Tell me about it. I wanted an SKX011 dial for a SNK mod project and could not find a legit dial at a reasonable price... So when a decent SNXS77 turned up, used, I got a new SKX011. Let me 'splain...
> 
> The other mod I wanted to do was an SNXS77 dial and hands in an SKX case. Having neither an SNXS77, nor an SKX, I put the mod on hold, kept searching for an 011 dial. But then an SNXS77 came up use, cheap, and once that was in hand, no-brainer to order the SKX011. How sick is it to take a perfectly good BRAND NEW WATCH and take it apart...? Dial went into the SNK case, SKX was upgraded with chapter ring, sapphire, coin edge bezel, stainless 12hr insert, and the whole guts from the SNXS. I'm not quite as much into it as a new Nodus Contrail SS in blue would have cost, but I've seen them go used for less... Probably could have got that new Hamtun release for cheaper, too... Oh well.


Nice, those are some cool mods. Happily I was able to track down a used 059, because new ones are now nearing $1200 thanks to them being relatively limited and OOP. Still an absurd amount of money spent, just slightly less absurd than buying a new one just to take it apart and harvest the dial and movement from it.

This is pretty much what it'll look like, though I'll be changing the stock hands (not a fan) to Grand Seiko GMT style hands.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Perhaps it's the wee wristed folks who are so keen on the 4mm taper?
> 
> I've said it before, but 40mm dia(yeah yeah the whole recent L2L, male/female endlink discussion be damned) is my very lower limit. I've got a hair over a 7.5" wrist, and yes, I prefer " bigger" watches. As a matter of fact, my only 40mm watches are my NTHs. Both get wrist time every week. But to MY eyes, the drastic taper of that Alpina strap made it look like a popsicle stick on my wrist.
> 
> But again. I'm still buying that white dial Swiftsure. If the bracelet isn't my cuppa, maybe someone here would want it.


Worst case scenario, if you remove the bracelet while it's still wrapped, and need a buyer, let me know. I'll buy it back, more than likely.

I haven't made any effort to correlate the wrist sizes or even the watch-size preferences of anyone with their desire for a 4mm taper, but my hunch is that you may be wright, that it's smaller wristed guys who want that more drastic taper.

But, maybe not, and while it doesn't sound all that logical, my hunch/hope is that a 22mm-18mm taper will seem less odd than an 18mm-14mm taper on some vintage pieces. It doesn't seem like it would just be about the size of the taper, but also about the feeling of smallness or flimsiness which might attend a clasp that small.

The 18mm clasp on the 2K1's will be the same clasp we use on the 40mm Subs, which never seemed particularly "small" to me.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

22 to 18, perfect.

Though I have thin 8.25 wrists, that taper works great on my Strapcodes with SKX based cases.

TWO Jubilees... well, FOUR if you include the other two...

Also, some oysters, coffin links, and... 

I do have some 24mm x 24mm bracelets that work too...

20x16 would look like a wrist thong on me.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

22 to 18 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DLC anyone?


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I’ll take a 20-16 taper on these revised “regular” Sub bracelets, please. 

6-incher here.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

22-18 taper is really good. Also means the clasp will be lighter and less "in the way". Back when I tried a steinhart ocean1, it came with 22-18 bracelets, and it really works well visually with a tapering case like the new subs have.

Nice to see that the caseback retains the basic flat minimal-engraving look; I've come to appreciate that type a lot more than ones with deep engravings or millings (which inevitably sacrifice comfort and/or thinness...

I wasn't really planning on getting one of the new subs, tbh. These latest bunch of renders are convincing enough for me to pay attention though. The case looks better than I assumed from the wire sketches, and the slanted "chapter ring" seems to improve upon the 40mm subs' silver barrel of doom.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> 22 to 18, perfect.
> 
> Though I have thin 8.25 wrists, that taper works great on my Strapcodes with SKX based cases.
> 
> ...


Well, at least this discussion has given me a term to replace lollipop/popsicle stick.

Wrist thong. It's perfect.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> 22-18 taper is really good. Also means the clasp will be lighter and less "in the way". Back when I tried a steinhart ocean1, it came with 22-18 bracelets, and it really works well visually with a tapering case like the new subs have.
> 
> Nice to see that the caseback retains the basic flat minimal-engraving look; I've come to appreciate that type a lot more than ones with deep engravings or millings (which inevitably sacrifice comfort and/or thinness...
> 
> I wasn't really planning on getting one of the new subs, tbh. These latest bunch of renders are convincing enough for me to pay attention though. The case looks better than I assumed from the wire sketches, and the slanted "chapter ring" seems to improve upon the 40mm subs' silver barrel of doom.


What's your problem with doom?

Personally, I find its finality calming...


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## Digivolt (Jun 29, 2020)

docvail said:


> DLC anyone?


DevilRay LE DLC + Miyota please!


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> What's your problem with doom?
> 
> Personally, I find its finality calming...


Too much focus on graphics and not enough on the story.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Digivolt said:


> DevilRay LE DLC + Miyota please!


I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that one.

The DR's case was designed for a thicker movement. Using the Miyota would require moving the crown, at the very least, which is bad enough, and not something I want to do to a case which I personally feel is perfect just the way it is.

At this point, it would also require an entirely new production run. Given that we're still awaiting the current run, plus I've got the next 2-5 releases planned as far out as Spring, well...like I said, unless you can hold your breath that long, I wouldn't try it.


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## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

docvail said:


> We don't currently offer any of the Subs on the BOR, but then, we don't have any watches available for sale anyway (other than those in the Nearly New section).
> 
> That said, Watch Gauge and Serious Watches both have the BOR's for sale, and either might be willing to accommodate the request, with the understanding that the watch would cost $25 more when fitted with the BOR bracelet.
> 
> And, as Mike said, we are planning to offer a choice of bracelet the next time we have a new release of the 40mm Subs.


Thanks bud that's great to hear. I'm seriously eyeing the gilt amphion on SW but I think I might just do the sensible thing for once and wait to see what you have in store


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just because I can....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jjmc87 said:


> Thanks bud that's great to hear. I'm seriously eyeing the gilt amphion on SW but I think I might just do the sensible thing for once and wait to see what you have in store


I may be misunderstanding you, but...

We don't have plans to make more of the Amphion Vintage Gilt any time soon. If you like that one, you should get one before they're gone.

We've got the DevilRays coming now, for the next release, due this month (July), and the larger 2K1 Subs due in August/September, but I don't have any more versions to reveal. If you've seen the Swiftsure, and the Thresher, in all the colorways, you've seen them all.

Beyond that, I have plans, but I'm not ready to reveal them just yet.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

A DLC Amphion would be so money, baby!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Done and done.


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## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> More good news - we figured out a way to get more definition around the center-section of the end-links.
> 
> We'll be adding that feature to future iterations of the 40mm Subs, too.


(A) 22-18 is a pro move - I love, love, LOVE a good taper.

(B) this new end link thing... Does this mean sharp, defined, dimension (as pictured in the renders above)? If so, HELL YES. I have always wondered why no one (no one besides, you know...) did that. Based on your wording, it seems like there must be more to it than I suspected.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Colour me Tikuna.........










Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Everett464 said:


> (A) 22-18 is a pro move - I love, love, LOVE a good taper.
> 
> (B) this new end link thing... Does this mean sharp, defined, dimension (as pictured in the renders above)? If so, HELL YES. I have always wondered why no one (no one besides, you know...) did that. Based on your wording, it seems like there must be more to it than I suspected.


We'll see how the end-links turn out on the 2K1 subs. You be the judge about how sharply defined they are.

FWIW - it's a function of 3 things...

1. How the links are made. Generally, links which are cold-forged, as most steel parts for watches are, including ours, aren't going to be as well-defined compared to CNC-machined end-links, but CNC machining adds a good bit of expense, for not a lot of benefit.

2. The difference in height or thickness between the center-section and the outer sections of the end-links. Because the NTH Subs are as thin as they are, we're at a disadvantage there, because there just isn't any way to make the center-section taller/thicker.

3. Other tricks.

What we're doing would be included under the heading of "other tricks".


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I have been going old school for the last couple of days.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

Here's a lume shot for your viewing pleasure....










I love the Vanguard bezel. It's simple approach works so well with all that's going on, on the dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hey guys, I know I've been kind of silent the last few days. I've been up to my eyeballs in a$$holes and alligators the last 2 weeks.

But, things are settling down (a little), and I've got half an hour before I start drinking. So, I figured I'd drop in to update everyone on a few things...

1. *DevilRays* - first batch (150) are expected to arrive tomorrow. QC to commence immediately. We hope to have them ready to ship by mid-next-week. There may or may not be any available from the NTH website. I have too much going on here to figure it out right now, but my hunch is we'll be shipping all of them out to retailers, and all or almost all of them are probably spoken for. We're expecting to receive the rest (150) within another 2 weeks. Right now, I may end up with ~20-25 for sale on the NTH website, or I may end up with none.

2. *2K1's* - we need to re-do all the renders. My vendors just told me that they needed to make a small change to the dial of the Swiftsure, and we just spotted a mistake we made with the end-links (in the illustrations, not the production). For those of you who were pissing in my ear about liking it better when the end-links of a bracelet are recessed below the lugs, you'll like the updated illustrations.

3. I can't remember exactly what I said earlier this year about making more of the *40mm NTH Subs*. I'm pretty sure I said we MIGHT make more late this year, or we might hold off until early next. Well, now that there are a few more than 200 left available worldwide, I decided we'd make more this year. We've got more of 3 models everyone has been asking for, plus 3 new models, plus some other twists...

Barracuda Vintage Black, Nacken Modern Black, and Nacken Modern Blue are the three models we're bringing back, which should please many and surprise none.

Additionally, we'll be offering the Barracuda Vintage Black and the Nacken Modern Black in a DLC version, complete with a DLC bracelet. We're making 10 pieces of each of those (5 with date, 5 no date).

The three new models will be a Barracuda "Polar" White (with date or no-date), a full-lume C3 dial Scorpène (with the same rice-paper texture as the Näcken Vintage White), and another Nazario, the "Vino Rosso", which will be available from any retailer who wants to buy it, not just Watch Gauge.

The full-lume Scorpène and the Nazario Vino Rosso will also be available in a DLC version, 5 pieces each. Both the Nazario and the Scorpène will be no-date only.

We'll also be offering the option of the 3-link Oyster bracelet or the Beads of Rice on any of the stainless-case models, for an additional $25. But, the BOR options will be limited to 5 pieces per version.

We just started production on these should, so they should be available in October.

I don't yet know when we'll be making the new Azores and Antilles, but if someone put a gun to my head and made me decide now, I'd say not until sometime in the first half of next year. If the stars and planets align, maybe it'll be sooner, but I seriously doubt it.

A little preview of the new models...


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Will the October batch of 40mm subs have the new sharper endlinks?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I like that Vino Rosso. But with plans for both a Swiftsure and an Azores, I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and pass.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I like that Vino Rosso. But with plans for both a Swiftsure and an Azores, I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and pass.


Swiftsure white dial and Arabic is making Vail's finest work nervous.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

I really like the Scorpene. The texture of the dial looks incredible in that colour. 

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Holy **** Doc! That’s a load!

(Edit) The forum censoring software must be a few days behind... 

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

I came here to post a photo of my Santa Cruz on a new strap, but...










She's still pretty though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Will the October batch of 40mm subs have the new sharper endlinks?


Yes.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> Holy **** Doc! That's a load!
> 
> (Edit) The forum censoring software must be a few days behind...
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Or.... fingers crossed... They're finally gonna leave us be when it comes to language. Kids and sensitive souls be damned.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Or.... fingers crossed... They're finally gonna leave us be when it comes to language. Kids and sensitive souls be damned.


But, I absolutely should never be allowed to fling any old words I feel like, slathering the WUS with salty language and hyperbolism...

nope...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## larand (May 15, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Or.... fingers crossed... They're finally gonna leave us be when it comes to language. Kids and sensitive souls be damned.


I wonder if the censoring software is multilingual. Because if it doesn't pick up on Russian мат, there's a rich world to explore. ;-)

Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> ...Barracuda Vintage Black...


I already miss my Carolina so, yeah, I'll be waiting for this.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Additionally, we'll be offering the Barracuda Vintage Black and the Nacken Modern Black in a DLC version, complete with a DLC bracelet. We're making 10 pieces of each of those (5 with date, 5 no date).


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Hey guys, I know I've been kind of silent the last few days. I've been up to my eyeballs in a$$holes and alligators the last 2 weeks.
> 
> But, things are settling down (a little), and I've got half an hour before I start drinking. So, I figured I'd drop in to update everyone on a few things...
> 
> View attachment 15330001


Productive half hour. Cheers. ?

Have enjoyed all of the recent reveals. This one is easily my favorite in render format. I suspect I'd like the white dials in the metal more than I do in the renders.

Seem to recall someone with a bit of a red dial fetish. Enthusiasm, at least. There is one person's day made when they see this.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Excited to have my devilray back soon. 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

I’ve held off on purchasing a watch for almost a year....actually, October will be the year mark. I think I need that BPW. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> the Nazario Vino Rosso will also be available in a DLC version
> 
> View attachment 15330001












Damnit Doc, I *just* bought a watch and then you go and drop the MOAB. If, hypothetically, I really wanted one of these, what would be the best way to secure one?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> If, hypothetically, I really wanted one of these, what would be the best way to secure one?


Buying it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> The three new models will be a Barracuda "Polar" White (with date or no-date), a full-lume C3 dial Scorpène (with the same rice-paper texture as the Näcken Vintage White), and another Nazario, the "Vino Rosso", which will be available from any retailer who wants to buy it, not just Watch Gauge.
> 
> View attachment 15330002


All the new versions are looking very tempting, but I am really liking the Polar Barracuda. Since the Azores will likely not be available until mid 2021, there should be enough time to save up in between


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> Damnit Doc, I *just* bought a watch and then you go and drop the MOAB. If, hypothetically, I really wanted one of these, what would be the best way to secure one?


Apparently my brain breezed right past this statement.... Seeing the DLC Rosso render very well might push me over the edge and convince me. Tbh, I'm betting it will. What's the difference between 4 & 5 NTHs... I see no problem with it.

Doc, are the DLC versions going to be available direct from the NTH site, or will they all be going to your retailers?


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Ughhhhhh!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hnyyurghhhh!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mplsabdullah said:


> Ughhhhhh!





X2-Elijah said:


> Hnyyurghhhh!


Y'all poopin?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Apparently my brain breezed right past this statement.... Seeing the DLC Rosso render very well might push me over the edge and convince me. Tbh, I'm betting it will. What's the difference between 4 & 5 NTHs... I see no problem with it.
> 
> Doc, are the DLC versions going to be available direct from the NTH site, or will they all be going to your retailers?


Just like every new release - I'll offer them to retailers first, and whatever they don't take will be available from the website.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Ughhhhhh!





X2-Elijah said:


> Hnyyurghhhh!





TheBearded said:


> Y'all poopin?
> View attachment 15330848


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Some afternoon gilt.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Simple and awesome...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Updated images showing the updated end-link and dial numbers.

What's different?

Not much. The numbers needed to be made a little taller, and the end-links are recessed slightly below the lugs.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Doc does nice lume


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work on the eve of independence day.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Been on an internet cleanse for a couple weeks, since everything I see in the interwebs these days makes the anger sharks swim in my brain.

I see that we've entered a bizarro-world where Doc is forced to come up with new Sub designs to keep one step ahead of Tudor as they monitor the popularity of NTH models, then release parallel Tudor versions at 5x the price to great fanfare. If only the hipster NYC beta male watch cognoscenti at W&W and Hodinkee hadn't blacklisted NTH, they might have something to write about there. Oh well.

I think I might have to get in on that DLC Nacken Modern Black, AKA the DLC Pelagos pre-release / market research prototype.

Happy 4th of July. Happy birthday, America. Here's a watch:


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

This thing is pleasant to use with NTH bracelets. The straight cut blade (the 1.2 mm one) does feel like a more solid fit to the screws than other tools I've used.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Been on an internet cleanse for a couple weeks, since everything I see in the interwebs these days makes the anger sharks swim in my brain.
> 
> I see that we've entered a bizarro-world where Doc is forced to come up with new Sub designs to keep one step ahead of Tudor as they monitor the popularity of NTH models, then release parallel Tudor versions at 5x the price to great fanfare. If only the hipster NYC beta male watch cognoscenti at W&W and Hodinkee hadn't blacklisted NTH, they might have something to write about there. Oh well.
> 
> ...


I'm just enjoying the ride. Ain't worrying about who gets there first.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

What this watch would have looked like to a Colonist on July 4, 1776.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Happy Independence Day, Americans!

(Damn the colonials' treacherous, tax-dodging eyes, Brits!)


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Red, white and blue day calls for red, white and blue watch.


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

docvail said:


> Happy Independence Day, Americans!
> 
> (Damn the colonials' treacherous, tax-dodging eyes, Brits!)
> 
> View attachment 15332483


Thanks for the shout out....

Happy Independance Day!!

I lived in the States for a couple of years so raise a beer or three to you all each year.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Headed out today with the NTH Barracuda Vintage Black on BOR bracelet.

Y'all enjoy a safe holiday weekend!









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> Headed out today with the NTH Barracuda Vintage Black on BOR bracelet.
> 
> Y'all enjoy a safe holiday weekend!
> 
> ...


Hua


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Happy 4th all! 059 on the wrist today (yep, changed my mind again and went with an 059 over an 077) in its pre-gutted state while I wait for a black date wheel to arrive to complete the Sammy mod.


----------



## Cvp33 (May 6, 2017)

Can't wait for the new Devil Ray. Enjoying my Tikuna for now.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Ordered another sub after seeing a great youtube review that surfaced recently.
Marketing does pay off! 
Next week I should have the Nacken VB and the DR.
Looking forward to it. 

Happy 4th! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Moar NTH!!!!!























Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Moar NTH!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice strap combo on that Carolina


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Hi All,
Still trying to get around the new format, does anyone know if we can still have the option of showing more than 20 posts per page, I had the 100 setting for the old format.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Greetings from BarraKunaVille


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

BigEd said:


> Hi All,
> Still trying to get around the new format, does anyone know if we can still have the option of showing more than 20 posts per page, I had the 100 setting for the old format.


There was a 100 setting?

How long was I asleep?


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

BigEd said:


> Hi All,
> Still trying to get around the new format, does anyone know if we can still have the option of showing more than 20 posts per page, I had the 100 setting for the old format.


No, there isn't - they say the 20 post setting is for 'performance' reasons, which is code for, it causes more page impressions, therefore more advertising revenue for the owners.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

So, after much deliberation, and some excellent recommendations on this sub, I think I finally found the perfect companion for my Barracuda Blue. Blue and Olive weave with beige band to play off the gold markers. I got it from Watchgecko, the reviews were mixed, but the strap was on sale, so I picked up two, for a tenner each. The strap quality is definitely better than CNS, hardware is pretty standard fare. So not too worried if it won't last forever. I really dig the pairing. And, with this strap I know I'll wear the Barracuda much more than I used to because it tones the dressiness down a lot.


----------



## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> So, after much deliberation, and some excellent recommendations on this sub, I think I finally found the perfect companion for my Barracuda Blue. Blue and Olive weave with beige band to play off the gold markers. I got it from Watchgecko, the reviews were mixed, but the strap was on sale, so I picked up two, for a tenner each. The strap quality is definitely better than CNS, hardware is pretty standard fare. So not too worried if it won't last forever. I really dig the pairing. And, with this strap I know I'll wear the Barracuda much more than I used to because it tones the dressiness down a lot.
> 
> View attachment 15335260


Looks great. Olive green with the blues NTHs are a must for me but this example works really well with the dial and indices.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Those 3 new subs!!!! Can't rule out the possibility that I will be getting one of each.
The Nazario does not look to be exactly the red dial I've been wanting but it could be close. Curious to see photos.
That white Cuda is pretty much must-buy.
Full lume Scorpene I could definitely justify, but only if I move a couple current holdings.
At least the release is months out yet for me to ponder ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all know I love getting positive feedback and making sales. 

At the same time - don't anyone go crazy with the spending, if doing so is going to create problems in your life.

This can be an expensive hobby. I like to think I'm doing something to spread happiness to others, not contributing to someone's problems.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Y'all know I love getting positive feedback and making sales.
> 
> At the same time - don't anyone go crazy with the spending, if doing so is going to create problems in your life.
> 
> This can be an expensive hobby. I like to think I'm doing something to spread happiness to others, not contributing to someone's problems.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A minor personal gripe / pro-tip for everyone/anyone...

When you're submitting the contact form on a website, make sure you type your email address correctly, particularly if you are not providing your full name, and/or if your email address isn't some obvious derivation of your name.

For example, if your name is Bob Jones, and your email address is [email protected], we can figure it out if you mistakenly type [email protected] (reversing two letters), or [email protected] (fat-fingering it by hitting the v instead of the b key).

It gets harder to do if your name is Bill Jones, but we don't know that, because you didn't bother to complete the form with your full name, and your email isn't [email protected], but instead is [email protected] whatever, but you typed it [email protected] How are we going to figure out the k should be a j, when all we know is your first name is Bill?

And if your email is [email protected], don't expect us to figure it out if you mistakenly type [email protected]. That's some amateur hour bullspit, right there.

While I'm at it - for the love of God, if you find that companies are consistently failing to respond to your contact form submissions or email inquiries, consider using a different email address. At least twice a month, I get messages bounced back from some server, like hotmail or yahoo, as undeliverable, even when it's clear that the email address was correctly typed when provided by the person trying to reach us. There's nothing for us to do when we just hit reply, and the hotmail servers just go, "Mmmmmmnope!".

The year 2002 called, and it wants you to upgrade your email service from AOL, yahoo, and hotmail.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Hotmail still exists?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Hotmail still exists?


When someone's hotmail address bounced back recently, and I couldn't figure out why, a little internet digging revealed that hotmail was absorbed by microsoft.

However, I wasn't able to determine if hotmail addresses are still in use, or if MS forced users to change their domain name to something more MS-ish, like outlook.com, or msn.com (if those still exist).

There was nothing for us to do but give up.

Fella using the hotmail address in 2020, if you're reading this, sorry, we tried.


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> When someone's hotmail address bounced back recently, and I couldn't figure out why, a little internet digging revealed that hotmail was absorbed by microsoft.
> 
> However, I wasn't able to determine if hotmail addresses are still in use, or if MS forced users to change their domain name to something more MS-ish, like outlook.com, or msn.com (if those still exist).
> 
> ...


Hotmail addresses still exist as an alias in Outlook accounts. I kept mine and I am still using it. I am a 90s guy, what can I say?

On an unrelated note, here is my Nazario Azurro. The new red one is also very tempting.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Hotmail does still in fact exist. And I have one. It's the perfect email to give to people who insist that you give them an email address before they'll do whatever it is they're supposed to be doing that does not actually require that they have your email address.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Thanks for the fiscal responsibility PSA. Good advice. 

On a related note, I recently found myself shopping for Vostok parts in an attempt to fix one that has stopped auto winding. (Not this one.) My normal habit when online shopping is to browse around to see if there is anything else they can throw in the box while they're at it. They had a watch I've always kind of liked on my preferred strap. Into the cart it went. They also had a cool looking bezel (matte black, kinda NTHy) that I hadn't seen before. Why not?

So having tossed in a watch and bezel on top of the parts I was originally shopping for, the total was still just $115 shipped. Incredible.

And now I think I'll have every Vostok (all 3 of them) I'm interested in. There are more than that many tempting NTHs just in the recent reveals alone.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avengers, assemble.








I ordered these only a couple days after I swapped the bezel insert. They've been sitting in limbo with my tracking app saying "shipped overseas" for a month.

The irony of them showing up today is, I emailed the guy from wabistraps literally this morning. He promptly responded asking for me to be patient, if they dont show up in two weeks, full refund. Cool.

Wish I'd had more time with em, because my custom that's going on the ratcheting deployant is in New Hampshire, so in all odds, showing up this week.


----------



## larand (May 15, 2017)

docvail said:


> A minor personal gripe / pro-tip for everyone/anyone...
> 
> When you're submitting the contact form on a website, make sure you type your email address correctly, particularly if you are not providing your full name, and/or if your email address isn't some obvious derivation of your name.
> 
> ...


Related: if you use an address that belongs to someone else, you're an idiot.

I have an old email address that is firstname.lastname at a major provider. Because I have a fairly common name, I've received all sorts of email intended for others, from yacht sales solicitations from the UK to auto insurance quotes from Texas to church newsletters from Los Angeles to tax communications from the government of New Zealand. Sometimes, if I'm in a good mood, I reply back letting them know they have the wrong guy. Sometimes I just sit back and watch the confusion. Mostly the latter, because many companies don't care or make it hard to reach a real person, and I can't fix stupid.

Double-check your info, folks.

Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That's the same Vostok I've been looking at for a while now....well, without the bronze bezel of course.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

gokce said:


> Hotmail addresses still exist as an alias in Outlook accounts. I kept mine and I am still using it. I am a 90s guy, what can I say?
> 
> On an unrelated note, here is my Nazario Azurro. The new red one is also very tempting.


James May wants his shirt back.


----------



## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

larand said:


> Related: if you use an address that belongs to someone else, you're an idiot.
> 
> I have an old email address that is firstname.lastname at a major provider. Because I have a fairly common name, I've received all sorts of email intended for others, from yacht sales solicitations from the UK to auto insurance quotes from Texas to church newsletters from Los Angeles to tax communications from the government of New Zealand. Sometimes, if I'm in a good mood, I reply back letting them know they have the wrong guy. Sometimes I just sit back and watch the confusion. Mostly the latter, because many companies don't care or make it hard to reach a real person, and I can't fix stupid.
> 
> ...


Since it's a fairly common name from a major provider, perhaps people are just using your email address when they are asked to provide an email address.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## larand (May 15, 2017)

caktaylor said:


> Since it's a fairly common name from a major provider, perhaps people are just using your email address when they are asked to provide an email address.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree for certain things, but banking and insurance claims? Seems unlikely.

Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> View attachment 15326915


Finally had the chance to catch up with all that's been happening.. From this perspective, I really like the crown guard and bezel profile. The way the bevel runs all the way through to the tip of the pointed crown guards is amazing, great little detail. Really nice look.

Plus, new Subs are always exciting


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Hotmail does still in fact exist. And I have one. It's the perfect email to give to people who insist that you give them an email address before they'll do whatever it is they're supposed to be doing that does not actually require that they have your email address.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> James May wants his shirt back.


Obscure TV personality references FTW!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Obscure TV personality references FTW!


Cant beat the original Top Gear(and The Grand Tour after). The American version and hosts blow.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Still salty that they turned the last season into just a single boat special...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Finally had the chance to catch up with all that's been happening.. From this perspective, I really like the crown guard and bezel profile. The way the bevel runs all the way through to the tip of the pointed crown guards is amazing, great little detail. Really nice look.
> 
> Plus, new Subs are always exciting


Thank you for noticing the chamfered crown guards.

When we (Rusty and I) started looking at the case design (specifically, how to handle the chamfered case sides when there are crown guards), we looked at various ways to integrate those features.

I wanted to run the chamfer down along the edges of the crown guards, because that was something we didn't see being done very often, if ever. I also wanted the crown guards to be fairly thin when viewed from the front, and come to a point when viewed from the lugs.

But tapering that chamfered surface to come to a point at the crown guards' tip is a challenge, with the metal working processes and tolerances involved. As you make the metal surfaces smaller and smaller, you start to cross over into the margin for error (aka the tolerances).

We had to go through a number of negotiated revisions to the design of the crown guards to get what you see now, which is pretty close to our original concept and drawings. So I'm pretty pleased with how they turned out.

There are number of small details on the 2K1's case which went through a number of subtle revisions. I still find it interesting how man aspects of design most of us never really think about.

For example, we went through 2 or 3 revisions to the bezel's edge, making various adjustments to the width and the angle of the scalloped cuts made into it, and the slope of its top and bottom surfaces. We didn't want to just show a picture of what we wanted to our vendors and say, "give us a bezel that looks like this". We wanted to make sure it was exactly how we wanted it.

We did that with the crown, the lugs, the dimensions, the case profile, etc. We had to accept some small changes here and there, but we mostly got what we wanted out of the process.

---

The 2K1's were also the first time we designed the entire case in 3D before we did anything with the 2D appearance of dial and hands. With every other model, first Aaron and I designed the watch from the front, then Rusty and I figured out the case.

Among the reasons the 2K1 took so long is that after we worked so hard to develop the case, which is very vintage inspired, we got stuck trying to figure out how to combine it with a dial/hands design which would look like they belong there, but wouldn't make the design "just a Rolex/Tudor homage". We went through a number of different dial concepts before settling on the Thresher and Swiftsure. All of the rejected ideas were either too modern, or too derivative, or just not cohesive enough.

Adding the two-stage chapter ring like the one seen in the Tudor Pelagos to the Thresher ruled out using snowflake hands entirely. To differentiate it from the Pelagos further, we lengthened the hour markers. We never even considered using Mercedes hands for the Swiftsure. But that left us with the challenge of trying to figure out what other handset style complemented the big-number dial.

Finding the right combination of hour and minute hands for both models was very difficult. I'm very OCD when it comes to the length of the hands. I want all the hands to touch their respective markers, but with applied hour indices, we have to avoid letting the hour hand overlap the markers, or there won't be enough clearance.

With all the pre-matched handsets, either the hour hand was too long, or the minute hand was too short, so I had to search hundreds of different handsets, trying to find an hour hand and minute hand of the correct length, but which also matched each other well enough.

And, because the handset supplier's website is so useless for searching, Aaron absolutely refuses to use it (damned Scots!). Finding hands to use is 100% my job. Instead of searching the website, I use the supplier's paper catalog, which is easier to search.

But - and I swear this is true - sometimes the handset dimensions they provide are wrong, so I literally (not figuratively) have to physically measure the 1:1 scale (read: extremely small) diagrams in the book. Even then, I don't always trust the results.

So I've now gotten into the habit of asking the handset supplier to send us the PDF files they use to make any hands, whenever we find hands we think we like. Those PDFs show all the dimensions. That makes it possible (though not easy) for me to compare the width of the tips or length/width of tails for all the hands.

In order for us to illustrate, Aaron has to take those PDFs and create vector files for each hand, for use with his dial illustration. I must have asked him to illustrate each dial version with at least a dozen different handsets, so he had to create dozens of different vector files.

We knew all the dimensions before he illustrated a dial with any handset, but even so, over and over, we'd see that the tip of one hand was too wide, or the tail was too long, or their shapes didn't match well enough, or the lume patches were too weird.

It took forever to find the hands which checked all the right boxes. Sometimes, if we thought we had the right handset, but the hour hand was too long or too short, we'd increase or shrink the size of the hour markers to see if that made any difference, but more often than not, it just looked worse.

Rusty has to take it a step further. Once we settle on a handset, he has to build those hands in 3D, to include adding thickness and beveled surfaces, finishes, depth of lume patches, etc.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

OG Azores









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

kpjimmy said:


> OG Azores


Wow. looks big.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Yesterday we had a BBQ, today it is raining cats and dogs 










I was supposed to be on the golf course about now. Hopefully I will still be able to play on Friday.










Last time I wore this watch I played golf too. I know people always talk about risking a mechanical watch to do sport but I have never had an issue. Most of my NTH and L&H watches have seen some form of sports action.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Wow. looks big.


Nah it's on a 6.5 inch wrist lol

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> Still salty that they turned the last season into just a single boat special...


Gotta admit though, it was pretty damn funny.

And iirc, it wasn't gonna be a one special and call it quits deal. I read somewhere they had a number of them lined up and then the Covid ******** started. I think "episode 2" was supposed to be some sort of trek across Russia. So hopefully, if this crap ever calms down, filming will resume.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Wow. looks big.


That's what she said.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Yesterday we had a BBQ, today it is raining cats and dogs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Playing golf isn't going to ruin your watch.

But wearing a watch might ruin your golf.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Gotta admit though, it was pretty damn funny.
> 
> And iirc, it wasn't gonna be a one special and call it quits deal. I read somewhere they had a number of them lined up and then the Covid ******** started. I think "episode 2" was supposed to be some sort of trek across Russia. So hopefully, if this crap ever calms down, filming will resume.


Yeah. That's where the salt comes from, we were supposed to get more of 'em xD


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Cant beat the original Top Gear(and The Grand Tour after). The American version and hosts blow.


Honestly, I never watched any Top Gear. Not sure why. I think every time I flipped past one, it was just Clarkson interviewing some European race car driver, or some celebrity, and it just failed to grab my interest. I vaguely recall giving one episode with the Alfa Romeo 8C and Matt LeBlanc a try, but gave up after a few minutes of boring inanity.

The only reason I started watching the Grand Tour on Prime was because the previews made it look good, and I was curious about Clarkson. My vague understanding at the time was that he was an unbearable windbag who got himself (or all of them) fired from the BBC, yet I was curious why the other two would remain loyal to him if that were all true.

Clarkson is actually my favorite of the three. He is an unbearable windbag, but that's exactly what I love about him.

To be fair, it's since been explained to me that the final straw was when he drove around Argentina with a license plate bearing the dates of the British victory in the Falklands War (which is hysterical, but also obviously going to get people riled up).

That incident apparently closely followed some complaint by some on-set staffer whom he mercilessly berated for not ensuring craft services had enough food for the on-air talent (which I understand, being married to someone who gets "hangry" when her blood sugar drops, and also having watched my ill-mannered niece and nephews devour food with no regard for anyone else present, but also sounds like one of the identifying markers of a prima donna).

So...he's a mixed windbag, it seems.


----------



## Wolfsatz (Jun 27, 2016)

Hey Doc, 
Can you take a look at this?








Pilot? Field? You Decide


EDIT: I'm sorry, in my haste, I put this dial and hands in a non-chrono case. It has been updated. The yellow sec hand is chrono seconds and the blue is chrono minutes.




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Honestly, I never watched any Top Gear. Not sure why. I think every time I flipped past one, it was just Clarkson interviewing some European race car driver, or some celebrity, and it just failed to grab my interest. I vaguely recall giving one episode with the Alfa Romeo 8C and Matt LeBlanc a try, but gave up after a few minutes of boring inanity.
> 
> The only reason I started watching the Grand Tour on Prime was because the previews made it look good, and I was curious about Clarkson. My vague understanding at the time was that he was an unbearable windbag who got himself (or all of them) fired from the BBC, yet I was curious why the other two would remain loyal to him if that were all true.
> 
> ...


You should check out the episode where Richard Hammond crashes a Rimac Electric Hypercar. He was wearing a Sea Dweller for the exceptionally bad crash.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Honestly, I never watched any Top Gear. Not sure why. I think every time I flipped past one, it was just Clarkson interviewing some European race car driver, or some celebrity, and it just failed to grab my interest. I vaguely recall giving one episode with the Alfa Romeo 8C and Matt LeBlanc a try, but gave up after a few minutes of boring inanity.


The show had its ups and downs for sure - a lot of the "news" guff, celebrity interviews and whatnot were quite dull. 
Honestly, the good episodes / segments are their "specials", which really are the three mains doing a big travel thing. The Argentina thing was one of those. 
Here's the list, if you ever want to watch 'em: Specials


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Up at the lake. When I'm away, I usually settle on one watch. This week, it's this one.










Then, a nap happened...


----------



## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

docvail said:


> That incident apparently closely followed some complaint by some on-set staffer whom he mercilessly berated for not ensuring craft services had enough food for the on-air talent (which I understand, being married to someone who gets "hangry" when her blood sugar drops, and also having watched my ill-mannered niece and nephews devour food with no regard for anyone else present, but also sounds like one of the identifying markers of a prima donna).
> 
> So...he's a mixed windbag, it seems.


He also punched that producer, which didn't go over so well....

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

None of the other "Top Gear Lite" versions have worked, because it was always about the hosts (who have real chemistry and are good friends IRL) and less about the cars. The quality was certainly hit and miss, but some of them were spectacular. Best special: Bolivia. Worst special: India.

You can watch the Bolivia special here: Top Gear Bolivia Special


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You should check out the episode where Richard Hammond crashes a Rimac Electric Hypercar. He was wearing a Sea Dweller for the exceptionally bad crash.
> View attachment 15337298
> 
> View attachment 15337299
> View attachment 15337300


I saw it. I've watched the entire series, up until the episode in which they sounded like it was going to be the series finale, but then they said they'd be back for more.

Haven't seen it since.

The crash was scary, but then hilarious, once they knew he didn't die.

That episode with the charred watch was when they exchanged gifts. My favorite was the pair of trainers with "Morgan Plus 8" across the top...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Antjrice said:


> He also punched that producer, which didn't go over so well....
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


You're not making me like him any less...in fact, just the opposite.

Who hasn't wanted to punch a TV producer, at least once?

I literally can't pick any station at random and not find a show so bad it at least warrants giving the producer a stern reprimand.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> None of the other "Top Gear Lite" versions have worked, because it was always about the hosts (who have real chemistry and are good friends IRL) and less about the cars. The quality was certainly hit and miss, but some of them were spectacular. Best special: Bolivia. Worst special: India.
> 
> You can watch the Bolivia special here: Top Gear Bolivia Special


They really do have obvious chemistry, which is on full display in The Grand Tour.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Update on stuff with a random tidbit thrown in...

Someone, somewhere asked me if we'd be regulating the DevilRays to within 1/2 of Seiko's accuracy spec, the way we do with the Miyotas.

Being a decisive man of action, I immediately equivocated.

The truth is Dan joined team NTH after the last time we put a Seiko movement into a new model, so neither of us knew what to expect, in terms of how many pieces he might find are outside that range, and how difficult and time consuming it would be to get them all to within that range.

Well, Dan's gone through the first 150 pieces, and I'm pleased to convey his findings. It seems that we did go ahead and get them all to within 1/2 of Seiko's specs (which are currently -20~+40 secs / day in 3 positions - dial up, 9 up, and 6 up).

When Dan's doing QC, he tends to zero in on a combination of daily rate and one position that seems to work as a good rule of thumb for seeing the average of all positions work out pretty well.

With the Miyota 9XXX's, I'm pretty sure he said it was +9 secs/day, dial up. With the Seiko NH3X's, he says his target is +15 secs/day, dial up.

Not to confuse anyone - if your watch runs better than that, it's a bonus. I may have misunderstood what he was explaining to me, but I think those targets are his minimum threshold targets when he regulates, meaning, if the movements run at least that well, dial up, then the rest of the daily rates in each position are going to be within the right range for the movement to be running no worse than 1/2 of spec.

So, his goal is to get all the 9's running no worse than +9/day, dial up, and the NH's running no worse than +15/day, dial up.

I figured peeps here might find that info useful, if you're keeping track of your watches' accuracy with any apps or whatnot. Anything better than those numbers, the odds are your real-world performance is pretty solid.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

And just like that, some more cool $hlt happened...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> to within 1/2 of Seiko's specs (which are currently -20~+40 secs / day in 3 positions - dial up, 9 up, and 6 up).


-10~+20 / half day in 1.5 positions?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> -10~+20 / half day in 1.5 positions?


I don't know if you're being serious or sarcastic.

We cut the daily rate range in half. We don't cut the number of positions in half.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I don't know if you're being serious or sarcastic.
> 
> We cut the daily rate range in half. We don't cut the number of positions in half.


....
Damnit, now I don't know if _you're_ being serious or sarcastic.

Anyway. Just make sure to keep the good half, aye?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> ....
> Damnit, now I don't know if _you're_ being serious or sarcastic.


That's the power of the old switcheroo...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The grift is in the “half day” part. 

“Seiko maintains +40s in 24 hr.
We can achieve +20s in 12 hr!”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> The grift is in the "half day" part.
> 
> "Seiko maintains +40s in 24 hr.
> We can achieve +20s in 12 hr!"
> ...


I can't tell if you're being funny or if someone actually said that somewhere...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> I can't tell if you're being funny or if someone actually said that somewhere...


I won't presume to say it is funny. But I was kidding.

+20s and half day are from Mr. X2 a few posts upstream.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> I won't presume to say it is funny. But I was kidding.
> 
> +20s and half day are from Mr. X2 a few posts upstream.


I overlooked that.

Been off my game, lately. Too much going on. Discovered some more bank fraud today. Killed two hours trying to get it sorted.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

Just wanted to point out I recently acquired an (used) NTH Nazario Sauro. My first NTH and enjoying it very much!









Sent from my kukui using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This happened yesterday...









NTH Tikuna » Zaltek Reviews


The NTH Subs are a tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period.




www.zaltekreviews.com


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> This happened yesterday...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great review, but the reviewer refers to the model as the Tikanu several times. Good for SEO if someone fumbles the name in their search, I guess. You know at least one person is going to think the Tikanu is a special edition of the Tikuna that they missed out on and blow up your contact form looking for details or the release date of the next batch.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Today's tools...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

3-1-1 said:


> Today's tools...


I like knives. But you can't post knives. Forum rules. When this pic is deleted, you'll know why...


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

3-1-1 said:


> Today's tools...
> View attachment 15340598


*I love that version of the Nacken.

Chris, any chance of seeing this model again?*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> Tikanu


Gesundheit.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> *I love that version of the Nacken.
> 
> Chris, any chance of seeing this model again?*


Unlikely.

There's a version of the Scorpene coming, with the same features, though.

Like I've said many times, most of the models we make are in very limited quantities. It's not unusal for us to make 50 date, 50 no-date, and then move on. If you see something you like, best get it before it's gone, so you don't end up being the guy asking me when we'll make more, right after they sell out (because without fail, whenever a model sells out, that's right when someone will ask).

They were a part of the November 2018 release, and then we released them again in July 2019. The last one sold the first week of May. They were available for 18 months straight.

It ain't like we didn't give everyone a fair chance to get one.

In fact, more than once, when the numbers got low, I said we wouldn't be making any more of them, any time soon.

---

And on that note...(we won't be making any more of these, any time soon)...

There's 1 Odin Blue left in the world, a with date at Serious Watches.

There's 1 Santa Cruz No Date left in the world, at the WatchDrobe, in Hong Kong.

There are 3 Santa Cruz With Dates left in the world - all 3 are at Watch Gauge.

There are 4 Odin Black no dates - 3 at IntoWatch in South Korea, 1 in Hong Kong.

There's 1 Odin Black With date - at Watch Gauge.

There are 4 Skipjack No Dates - 2 at Watch Gauge, 2 at IntoWatch.

There 3 Skipjack With Dates - 2 at Watch Gauge, 1 at IntoWatch.

There are 2 Amphion Commandos - 1 with date, and 1 no-date, both at Watch Gauge.

There is 1 Dolphin Ice, no Date, at Serious.

There are 3 Dolphin Ice, with Date - 2 at Serious, and 1 at Five:45 in New Zealand.

I'm tracking worldwide inventory for a total of 15 models, including the six above. On average, there are fewer than 8 pieces left, per version. We won't be making any more, of any of those models, any time soon.

I'm not screwing around. They won't be a part of the next release in October, or the one after that, I can unequivocally 100% guarantee.

Don't screw around. If you want ANY of the models ANY of my retailers have in stock, buy it, sooner rather than later, because, and I really can't stress this enough, you don't want to be the guy who waits too long, and asks me when we'll make more, right after we sell out.

You won't like the answer.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Well, Patrik over at Clover Straps delivers again. 























The strap for the Sauro is triple layered cordura, its definitely gonna need some breaking in.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Sussa said:


> Great review, but the reviewer refers to the model as the Tikanu several times. Good for SEO if someone fumbles the name in their search, I guess. You know at least one person is going to think the Tikanu is a special edition of the Tikuna that they missed out on and blow up your contact form looking for details or the release date of the next batch.


You have to bear in mind that the reviewer is a Jock and was probz ever so slightly inebriated whilst penning that review, hence the slurred spelling.

Make mine a pint o' heavy..........

Cheerz, (hic)

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Doc, I have a question for you. If it gives away any trades secrets or whatnot then apologies in advance...

I'm making an assumption that all automatic movements are not the same size; not one size fits all. So let's say you're designing a watch like the subs. Do you design the case so that it's the aesthetic you want and then find a movement that fits? Or do you design the case such that it fits the movement you want and then figure out the aesthetics around that?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Doc, I have a question for you. If it gives away any trades secrets or whatnot then apologies in advance...
> 
> I'm making an assumption that all automatic movements are not the same size; not one size fits all. So let's say you're designing a watch like the subs. Do you design the case so that it's the aesthetic you want and then find a movement that fits? Or do you design the case such that it fits the movement you want and then figure out the aesthetics around that?


We decide what movement we're using, then design the case around it.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Please consider making the no date black modern amphion again in the future. Thanks! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Please consider making the no date black modern amphion again in the future. Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I doubt we'll make it any time soon, mate.

What's wrong with the Amphion Vintage Gilt?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> I'm making an assumption that all automatic movements are not the same size; not one size fits all. So let's say you're designing a watch like the subs. Do you design the case so that it's the aesthetic you want and then find a movement that fits? Or do you design the case such that it fits the movement you want and then figure out the aesthetics around that?


A lot of movements actually are interchangeable. The SW-200 and STP 1-11/3-13 for example are clones of the ETA-2824, and would drop right in to a watch using the ETA. Same with the 2892 and SW-300. Otherwise off the shelf movements generally have subtle differences in terms of diameter and height.

The Subs could be made ever so slightly thinner if they were using the 2892 (at a lot more expense) or would have to be a bit thicker if they were using the NH35. Date window positions would change on the dial ever so slightly between movements, but that's about it. No major aesthetic changes to the watches one way or the other.

Doc likes the 9015 because it's basically the Toyota Corolla of watch movements - not pretty, but reliable as hell, and will run indefinitely with no effort.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> I doubt we'll make it any time soon, mate.
> 
> What's wrong with the Amphion Vintage Gilt?


I like classic, safe combos. May still try it out one day...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

@ Daveykay: Right. I was thinking that Doc was aiming for an 11mm thick sub and then found a movement that allowed it, not the other way around. Very interesting. 

I'm totally on board with the Seiko movements over ETA/Sellita based on the discussions here. I assume, though, if Doc wanted to put an ETA in the sub it would have to be thicker. I thought (which is sort of why I asked) that he likely started with the aim to make his sub of certain dimensions, not the other way around.

Thanks for answering, Doc. I appreciate it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> A lot of movements actually are interchangeable. The SW-200 and STP 1-11/3-13 for example are clones of the ETA-2824, and would drop right in to a watch using the ETA. Same with the 2892 and SW-300. Otherwise off the shelf movements generally have subtle differences in terms of diameter and height.
> 
> The Subs could be made ever so slightly thinner if they were using the 2892 (at a lot more expense) or would have to be a bit thicker if they were using the NH35. Date window positions would change on the dial ever so slightly between movements, but that's about it. No major aesthetic changes to the watches one way or the other.
> 
> Doc likes the 9015 because it's basically the Toyota Corolla of watch movements - not pretty, but reliable as hell, and will run indefinitely with no effort.


I disagree with that analogy.

If someone wants to know why I like a movement, I'm willing to tell them.

I don't get why a movement's looks would matter if you can't see it, but, if that's the comparison...

Beauty of movements is in the eye of the beholder. I have no idea why anyone thinks an undecorated ETA or clone of it is "pretty". It isn't, in my opinion. The Unitas hand-wind movements are better looking.

The 9015, for some reason, gets a bad rap for being unattractive. Again, I have no idea why. It's a better-looking movement than the ETA or its clones.

Without a doubt, it's a more elegant design, in terms of how it's designed.

The NH35 isn't particularly good-looking as movements go, again, for whatever that's worth, though I'm not sure why it would be worth anything.

A movement is like a car engine. It's rare that anyone lifts the hood of their car and goes, "wow, what an attractive engine". That sort of thing is usually reserved for show cars.

I like the overall value proposition of the 9015. It's the turbo-charged Japanese V6 of movements - plenty of performance without being too fussy or temperamental.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> @ Daveykay: Right. I was thinking that Doc was aiming for an 11mm thick sub and then found a movement that allowed it, not the other way around. Very interesting.
> 
> I'm totally on board with the Seiko movements over ETA/Sellita based on the discussions here. I assume, though, if Doc wanted to put an ETA in the sub it would have to be thicker. I thought (which is sort of why I asked) that he likely started with the aim to make his sub of certain dimensions, not the other way around.
> 
> Thanks for answering, Doc. I appreciate it.


The ETA 2824-2 wouldn't fit in the Sub's case.

The 2892-2 or clone of it might, with some minor modification of the design, but it would more than double the price.

The NH35 gets looked down on for being a low-beat workhorse. People who look down on it don't know squat.

It's adjusted to 3 positions, same as the elabore grade 2824-2. It may be lower beat, but it's got a longer PR, and it's freaking bullet-proof by comparison to the ETAs, with equal or better accuracy.

The NH was the natural choice to swap into the DR's case, in place of the STP.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I like classic, safe combos. May still try it out one day...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I just went looking for one on eBay and Watch Recon. Didn't see any.

Set up alerts on both, maybe, and create a WTB thread in the sales corner. You never know when one might come up for sale used.

For all the hate the snowflake hands seem to get, the models with those hands outsell the ones with sword hands. I can't say when we'll make more Amphions of any variety.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> I just went looking for one on eBay and Watch Recon. Didn't see any.
> 
> Set up alerts on both, maybe, and create a WTB thread in the sales corner. You never know when one might come up for sale used.
> 
> For all the hate the snowflake hands seem to get, the models with those hands outsell the ones with sword hands. I can't say when we'll make more Amphions of any variety.


Yeah, I was a snowflake hater. They grew on me.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Yeah, I was a snowflake hater. They grew on me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I still think Tudor could get a couple more lines of text on that dial, if they tried.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Yeah, I was a snowflake hater. They grew on me.


That Tudor does have a really, _really_ good date window integration. Almost the same size as the corresponding index, and the same color.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I disagree with that analogy.
> 
> If someone wants to know why I like a movement, I'm willing to tell them.
> 
> ...


I don't think the stock 9015 is more or less pretty than an undecorated 2824 or a 4R/6R. The point of the analogy was more about the robustness of it. All of those movements I think are fairly industrial looking, and the 9015 can be made to be quite attractive, as Visitor has shown.

With a typical car yes, nobody cares what the engine looks like. Most of them are all covered with plastic now and you can't see anything anyway. But that also has to do with the intended customer of those cars. At least some of the people who care enough about cars to buy something like an Audi TT-RS as opposed to the million people who bought a Honda CR-V do care what the engine looks like, enough for Audi to bother making it look nice.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I still think Tudor could get a couple more lines of text on that dial, if they tried.


That's one of the biggest downsides of the in-house Pelagos vs. the old ETA version, which had a sane amount of text on the dial vs. the paragraph on the current one. Even the old one though still had the completely pointless "ROTOR SELF-WINDING" on it. Was anyone confused that it might be a quartz watch? Also, is there a more long winded way to say "automatic" than that?


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

The worst thing is the lack of half link. 
Spring in the clasp is the biggest gimmick.
No way anyone wears it on the spring full time, it is not comfortable. 
As someone who wears watches tight but comfortable this will be the reason I sell Pelagos one day. Cant get the right fit.
Case thickness is another big one however it works with titanium but not with steel. Horrible case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

DuckaDiesel said:


> The worst thing is the lack of half link.
> Spring in the clasp is the biggest gimmick.
> No way anyone wears it on the spring full time, it is not comfortable.
> As someone who wears watches tight but comfortable this will be the reason I sell Pelagos one day. Cant get the right fit.
> ...


Wrong. The worst thing is it has snowflake hands.

The epitome of evil.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Well, Patrik over at Clover Straps delivers again.
> View attachment 15340771
> View attachment 15340773
> View attachment 15340776
> ...


He makes some good straps.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I still think Tudor could get a couple more lines of text on that dial, if they tried.


I'd support a Doc WOT Sub dial variant.

Some potential lines for such a dial, just to get the ball rolling:

Japanese > Swiss
GMT? No
Chronograph? Leave me alone
Female end links? Be a man
Quick adjust? Go away
Want something? Find 100 friends
Think an old Swiss guy built your watch? Right . . .

Given the amount of additional lines we could come up with, we may need the additional real estate of the XL Sub.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

I had a vision, and it was called “Näcken, left hand drive”

Somebody should get on that


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Apropos of nothing, an update on my eBay purchase of the Nacken Modern Black:

Days in transit from Australia to San Francisco: 19
Days in transit from SF to Seattle: 2
Days in transit from Seattle to my house, which is under an hour away: 15 days _and counting._

So yeah, still no Nacken.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> The worst thing is the lack of half link.
> Spring in the clasp is the biggest gimmick.
> No way anyone wears it on the spring full time, it is not comfortable.
> As someone who wears watches tight but comfortable this will be the reason I sell Pelagos one day. Cant get the right fit.
> ...


Interesting to hear someone else express the same views that I have on the Pelagos. Tried to wear it on the clasp spring but it was just so tight......


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Left drive sounds like another likely candidate for ck2k01’s WOT dial of Nopes. 

On automotive analogy, I like to think my NTHs have GM LS engines. Not fancy in most applications. Respectable performance and reliability. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

ck2k01 said:


> I'd support a Doc WOT Sub dial variant.
> 
> Some potential lines for such a dial, just to get the ball rolling:
> 
> ...


 You mean 500 friends


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

RotorRonin said:


> Apropos of nothing, an update on my eBay purchase of the Nacken Modern Black:
> 
> Days in transit from Australia to San Francisco: 19
> Days in transit from SF to Seattle: 2
> ...


Yeah, domestic post seems a little bit f**ky-wucky here in Sweden too. What usually should take a day to get from entering the border to arriving at local PO now seems to take 3-4 days at least. Cannot help but think that the post usage has increased dramatically all over the world...


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> You mean 500 friends


Ya, the BSH and Kiger numbers threw me off. I guess 500 for no good reason; 50 if you've got a good idea 

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You mean 500 friends





ck2k01 said:


> Ya, the BSH and Kiger numbers threw me off. I guess 500 for no good reason; 50 if you've got a good idea
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Technically, it would be 499, or 49, since it's you (one), plus them.

It's 500 if you want a completely from scratch design, including a unique case.

It's 50 if you just want your own variant of a model we already make.

So...if the two of you and @rscaletta want a LHD version of the same Sub variant (make it a no-date), all you have to do is find 47 more friends who agree with you, and are willing to plunk down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders, and we'll make it.

Let me know when that group of 50 coalesces.


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Technically, it would be 499, or 49, since it's you (one), plus them.
> 
> It's 500 if you want a completely from scratch design, including a unique case.
> 
> ...












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

docvail said:


> Technically, it would be 499, or 49, since it's you (one), plus them.
> 
> It's 500 if you want a completely from scratch design, including a unique case.
> 
> ...


Oh, it needs a date or I ain't playin'

Workin' at home but still doing timesheets every d#&^ed day


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Technically, it would be 499, or 49, since it's you (one), plus them.
> 
> It's 500 if you want a completely from scratch design, including a unique case.
> 
> ...


If one already has an NTH sub can't you just rotate the dial by 180 degrees and switch the bracelet around to create a LHD version?


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hornet99 said:


> If one already has an NTH sub can't you just rotate the dial by 180 degrees and switch the bracelet around to create a LHD version?


Not really, no. The dial feet holes on the 9015 movement are not symmetric, so flipping the dial 180deg. would mean you'd need to clip the dial feet off and use some tape/glue, which in turn might cause issues due to added thickness of the sticky stuff...

You could try to re-solder the dial feet in the new correct positions, but uh... it seems like a massively risky thing to even attempt.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

ChronoB said:


> *I love that version of the Nacken.
> 
> Chris, any chance of seeing this model again?*











SOLD **Excellent Condition** NTH Nacken White with Date...


SOLD an Excellent Condition NTH Nacken White with Date. I can not find any marks on the watch. Slight marks from sizing the bracelet. Please see pictures for detailed description. Asking $535 OBRO with shipping included. Thank you Prefer shipping within the U.S.A. Will ship via USPS...




www.watchuseek.com





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Not really, no. The dial feet holes on the 9015 movement are not symmetric, so flipping the dial 180deg. would mean you'd need to clip the dial feet off and use some tape/glue, which in turn might cause issues due to added thickness of the sticky stuff...
> 
> You could try to re-solder the dial feet in the new correct positions, but uh... it seems like a massively risky thing to even attempt.


Problems, problems X2-Elijah, you just bring problems. I'm sure there's some enterprising modder out there willing to do this on the cheap......

......what could possibly go wrong? If it all goes wrong return it for a warranty claim*.

* - I in no way endorse such behaviour and in fact condone this in the strongest possible terms. Just wanted to bait the bear.....


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Not really, no. The dial feet holes on the 9015 movement are not symmetric, so flipping the dial 180deg. would mean you'd need to clip the dial feet off and use some tape/glue, which in turn might cause issues due to added thickness of the sticky stuff...
> 
> You could try to re-solder the dial feet in the new correct positions, but uh... it seems like a massively risky thing to even attempt.


Yeah given how tight the tolerances are in an NTH Sub vs. something like an SKX case, just cutting the dial feet off and using dial dots might be problematic, and gluing a dial on is always a bad idea.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Honestly the best approach could be to use a rivet gun to staple the dial onto the movement.

as for the dial dots, I think they might melt off while you're microwaving the watch to get the bezel insert loosened.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> I'd support a Doc WOT Sub dial variant.
> 
> Some potential lines for such a dial, just to get the ball rolling:
> 
> ...





ck2k01 said:


> I'd support a Doc WOT Sub dial variant.
> 
> Some potential lines for such a dial, just to get the ball rolling:
> 
> ...


Of course, Tudor = Rolex, who also insist on applying a ridiculous and totally unecessary amount of verbiage on their dials too, but they just have to go one better and include the word "superlative"...........

This has to be the Swizz watchmaking equivalent of a dog licking it's own dick......

........Just have to hate Rolex for being so, well, crass.......

Cheerz,

Alan


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ragl said:


> ........Just have to hate Rolex for being so, well, crass.......
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


Honestly, I don't hate Rolex. Quality, craftsmanship, accuracy, heritage, all the things a WIS loves.

But 90% of their owners have completely ruined the brand for me. So I'll never, ever buy one. The douche canoes and [email protected] waffles(not all, but most) immediately go to Rolex when they get that money. Like you said, Tudor = Rolex, but at least Tudor is more obscure outside of WIS circles(though I don't want a Tudor either).


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> douche canoes and [email protected] waffles(not all, but most) immediately go to Rolex when they get that money.


There's an ad popping up on my feed, for something like "the man box" that contains stuff like a compass and a hatchet. Now I appreciate a good hatchet as much as the next man, but who in the hell would get one in some sort of subscription box? Douche canoes, and [email protected] waffles. That's who.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> There's an ad popping up on my feed, for something like "the man box" that contains stuff like a compass and a hatchet. Now I appreciate a good hatchet as much as the next man, but who in the hell would get one in some sort of subscription box? Douche canoes, and [email protected] waffles. That's who.


Aren't ads generated by search history and visited websites?

I kid, I kid!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Aren't ads generated by search history and visited websites?
> 
> I kid, I kid!


Appropriate response, no offense. FWIW I actually cut trees and split my own wood, so there's probably something there. But I can't imagine getting a wood cutting tool, of any sort, from a subscription.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

But it IS superlative...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Appropriate response, no offense. FWIW I actually cut trees and split my own wood, so there's probably something there. But I can't imagine getting a wood cutting tool, of any sort, from a subscription.
> 
> View attachment 15342734
> View attachment 15342735


If I needed that much would, I'd use a log splitter too.

Cheater. Real men use axes. 
That they bought online.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Now I appreciate a good hatchet as much as the next man, but who in the hell would get one in some sort of subscription box? Douche canoes, and [email protected] waffles. That's who.


So you're saying you prefer to buy the specific tool you need for a job, when you need it, rather than get a random tool every month picked out of a stockpile of overstock items and marked up as a "manly subscription" and hope one of them eventually suits your needs? Heresy. Next you'll tell us that we should measure twice before cutting once.

To be fair to subscription services, some work well. I think that watch one people were generally happy with.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

No friends...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

3WR said:


> No friends...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just turn the bezel back to "12" and no one will notice.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I prefer to give a double bit axe as a wedding gift, but a hatchet might be appropriate for a promotion or something...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

uvalaw2005 said:


> But it IS superlative...
> 
> View attachment 15342736


Unless you compare its ability to do its one job (keep time) against a $20 quartz watch from the drugstore ...

Sorry, couldn't resist. The "superlative chronometer" bit hasn't been true since the first Bulova Accutron first hit store shelves in October 1960 ...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> If I needed that much would, I'd use a log splitter too.
> 
> Cheater. Real men use axes.
> That they bought online.


I still remember the year my dad let us rent a log splitter. That was a _game changer_.

I've enjoyed a lot of technical innovations in my day. The automobile. The internet. Microwave pizzas.

That log splitter still tops my list.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rscaletta said:


> Oh, it needs a date or I ain't playin'
> 
> Workin' at home but still doing timesheets every d#&^ed day


And then there were 48 needed...

With date isn't happening. We'd need to reprint the date wheels.

Ain't nobody got time f'dat.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> If one already has an NTH sub can't you just rotate the dial by 180 degrees and switch the bracelet around to create a LHD version?


Only if it's a no date.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Not really, no. The dial feet holes on the 9015 movement are not symmetric, so flipping the dial 180deg. would mean you'd need to clip the dial feet off and use some tape/glue, which in turn might cause issues due to added thickness of the sticky stuff...
> 
> You could try to re-solder the dial feet in the new correct positions, but uh... it seems like a massively risky thing to even attempt.


This too.

It is possible to do with dial dots.

I ain't doing it.

But it is possible to do.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah given how tight the tolerances are in an NTH Sub vs. something like an SKX case, just cutting the dial feet off and using dial dots might be problematic, and gluing a dial on is always a bad idea.


Dial dots raise the dial more than dial feet?

This is the first I've heard of it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Of course, Tudor = Rolex, who also insist on applying a ridiculous and totally unecessary amount of verbiage on their dials too, but they just have to go one better and include the word "superlative"...........
> 
> This has to be the Swizz watchmaking equivalent of a dog licking it's own dick......
> 
> ...


Can we all just admit a preference for me dropping my excess text on the internet, instead of on the dials?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Honestly, I don't hate Rolex. Quality, craftsmanship, accuracy, heritage, all the things a WIS loves.
> 
> But 90% of their owners have completely ruined the brand for me. So I'll never, ever buy one. The douche canoes and [email protected] waffles(not all, but most) immediately go to Rolex when they get that money. Like you said, Tudor = Rolex, but at least Tudor is more obscure outside of WIS circles(though I don't want a Tudor either).


Meh.

So long as a guy is actually into watches, I'm cool with the Rolex ownership, and I'd own one myself, if Glen Roiland were to set his Milgauss down and walk away.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Dial dots raise the dial more than dial feet?
> 
> This is the first I've heard of it.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Why wouldn't they? afaik dial feet go into slots/holes in the movement plate(s); dial dots sit on top of the movement top plate. Is this not the case?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Why wouldn't they? afaik dial feet go into slots/holes in the movement plate(s); dial dots sit on top of the movement top plate. Is this not the case?


Dial dots can go where the feet were, which would raise the dial by fractions of a mm due to sitting on the movement spacer(holder?).

If the movement is date/no date they can go directly on the movement plate and don't really add any height. Day date movements need the first method.

Also, dial dots sketch me out, plus getting the dial position perfect can be fiddly.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Okay, followup question - how thick are these dial dots? (I assumed they were small circles of double sided stickytape, which usually is like .5 - 2. mm or so)


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Okay, followup question - how thick are these dial dots? (I assumed they were small circles of double sided stickytape, which usually is like .5 - 2. mm or so)


They are paper thin. But yes, they are just tiny double sided sticky jerks.

I hate them.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

The best method for dial position mods, Lhd mods, attaching dials with feet for different movements(etc) is finding someone very good at soldering, and get new feet added in the appropriate position. 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> So long as a guy is actually into watches, I'm cool with the Rolex ownership


That's why I said 90% instead of 100%. Yeah, some Rolex owners are genuine watch enthusiasts, and those are the ones that don't bother me. But let's face it, they're the definite minority.

Me: "Nice watch!"
Them: "It's a Rolex"
Me: "Douche"

Me: "Nice watch!"
Them: "Thanks! It's a [Milgauss, Day Date, Explorer, Cellini, Sea Dweller, Daytona]
Me: "Very cool"

Outside of WIS circles, we all know which conversation happens more.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Meh.
> 
> So long as a guy is actually into watches, I'm cool with the Rolex ownership, and I'd own one myself, if Glen Roiland were to set his Milgauss down and walk away.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I once expressed my disdain of owing a Rolex in this forum, and Doc sent some Milgauss mojo my way so that I might expand my WIS universe. After much self-examination I decided I would still rather have one of these


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

90% of watch collectors are di**s in general. 
The monetary value of their collection will dictate what brands/watches they sh*t on.
But they will always say, I respect all watches from a $50 Seiko to XXX
I stopped going to local GTGs because of this. 
Maybe its subconscious and they really are nice guys but its very annoying


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> The best method for dial position mods, Lhd mods, attaching dials with feet for different movements(etc) is finding someone very good at soldering, and get new feet added in the appropriate position.
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


That sounds like a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, to me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Why wouldn't they? afaik dial feet go into slots/holes in the movement plate(s); dial dots sit on top of the movement top plate. Is this not the case?


You may be right.

I've never really looked into this specifically, but I think there's some small amount of space, such that the dial doesn't sit flush on the movement.

When there's a date wheel, there has to be space for it to turn.

Whoever came up with the idea for dial dots must surely have encountered clearance issues, if the dots raised the dial much.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> 90% of watch collectors are di**s in general.
> The monetary value of their collection will dictate what brands/watches they sh*t on.
> But they will always say, I respect all watches from a $50 Seiko to XXX
> I stopped going to local GTGs because of this.
> ...


I'm of two minds.

On the one hand, I'm struggling to think of a single watch collector I've met in real life, but disliked.

On the other, I've encountered many d**ks among collectors online.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Here's an experiment for everyone. Browse watch boxes on Amazon. Never mind the non-sense groupings of watches used as props in the promo photos. Go into the customer reviews and check out the photos there. And prepare yourself to gaze into the heart of darkness. 

If any of you can get through a significant number of those without feeling superior, you're a better man than I. I couldn't help but feel impressed with myself WIS-wise. As a human, I was humbled. And that was even after going in with every intention of being non-judgmental. 

I've liked watches a lot longer than I've known department stores and malls aren't the only places to buy them. Maybe some of those collections would be different had they been built with the advantage of knowing that. Try as I might, I still don't know how to put a kind spin on the boxes full of 50mm+ gaudy monsters.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For whomever's interested, right now, on eBay, there are two Barracuda Vintage Blacks and a Nacken Modern Blue. All with date, and all in the USA.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Here's an experiment for everyone. Browse watch boxes on Amazon. Never mind the non-sense groupings of watches used as props in the promo photos. Go into the customer reviews and check out the photos there. And prepare yourself to gaze into the heart of darkness.
> 
> If any of you can get through a significant number of those without feeling superior, you're a better man than I. I couldn't help but feel impressed with myself WIS-wise. As a human, I was humbled. And that was even after going in with every intention of being non-judgmental.
> 
> I've liked watches a lot longer than I've known department stores and malls aren't the only places to buy them. Maybe some of those collections would be different had they been built with the advantage of knowing that. Try as I might, I still don't know how to put a kind spin on the boxes full of 50mm+ gaudy monsters.


It was probably 2014 when I attended a get-together in New Jersey, called "Bezelfest".

A lot of the guys there were really into big watches from Invicta and Android. Like, REALLY into them. There was a young man situated next to me with at least two huge rolling travel cases, full of over-sized watches.

Nice guys, but clearly they weren't spending all their time on forums.

There's a lot of those guys out there. It's more common for me to hear about someone with a collection of Invictas than it is for me to hear about someone with a collection of Seikos.


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Man alive, the last 3 pages of this thread are gold.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

3WR said:


> Here's an experiment for everyone. Browse watch boxes on Amazon. Never mind the non-sense groupings of watches used as props in the promo photos. Go into the customer reviews and check out the photos there. And prepare yourself to gaze into the heart of darkness.
> 
> If any of you can get through a significant number of those without feeling superior, you're a better man than I. I couldn't help but feel impressed with myself WIS-wise. As a human, I was humbled. And that was even after going in with every intention of being non-judgmental.
> 
> I've liked watches a lot longer than I've known department stores and malls aren't the only places to buy them. Maybe some of those collections would be different had they been built with the advantage of knowing that. Try as I might, I still don't know how to put a kind spin on the boxes full of 50mm+ gaudy monsters.


I do some home repairs as a side hustle. One of my customers recently asked me to go install 3 new toilets in one of his rentals. He warned me that the tenant is a bit eccentric and apparently doesn't feel the need to clean. The tenant was out working so I let myself into this house that was absolutely disgusting, as promised, yet FILLED with all manner of brand new consumer goods. The den had a huge new curved TV on the stand with the old broken 60" right behind it covered in cobwebs. One of the spare bedrooms was nearly packed with hundreds of brand new pairs of sneakers. In that room was also a long dresser. On top of that dresser was 2 rows of Invicta's finest 46mm and up work, all nestled in their yellow boxes. There was at least 30 gaudy monsters on that dresser. I almost vomited. ?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Changing topics (please, let's change topics)...drilled lugs?

I know the default answer is, "Yes, always, drill the lugs whenever possible", but before we settle for that, I want to raise a possible exception for discussion.

When we originally made the Antilles / Azores, I made the decision not to drill the lug holes all the way through, because in my mind's eye, it didn't look right. 

I viewed the Tropics as being more towards the "dressy diver" side of the spectrum than the "tool watch" side, and felt like drilled lugs would ruin the clean case sides of the Tropics.

Has anyone here an example of a dress (or dressy) watch with drilled lugs? Do people generally agree that drilled lugs are less appropriate on dressier watches? Are drilled lugs inherently more toolish?

What about the updated tropics? Should the lugs be drilled through?


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I can't recall anything dressy with drilled lugs. Seems like so many dressy watches aren't available with bracelets, and removing a bracelet is really where drilled lugs are handy nowadays (yes, I know what the original purpose of drilling was for).


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Has anyone here an example of a dress (or dressy) watch with drilled lugs? Do people generally agree that drilled lugs are less appropriate on dressier watches? Are drilled lugs inherently more toolish?


Nothing dressier than a Cartier Tank...


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## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

I, personally, don't see an issue with drilled lugs on any watch.

Sent from my kukui using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Nomos Orion is pretty dressy.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Dang it, I was literally about to post that. I'll do it anyway.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

That said, most of my watches actually do not have drilled lugs. While I’d prefer it, that has never been a deal breaker for me. Do you, Doc.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Twehttam said:


> That said, most of my watches actually do not have drilled lugs. While I'd prefer it, that has never been a deal breaker for me. Do you, Doc.


+1

Edit: I gotta add, my personal favorite is my GG with full blown drilled and tapped lugs. I wish more companies utilized screw bars. No where as easy to replace as spring bars if you lose em, but so much nicer imho.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Just my .02$, but if the watch is "all dress" like the Cartier, then the drilled lugs I think don't distract. But if something is in between - think: sporty dress - then I think drilled lugs could make it a bit more casual than dressy (i.e. cause it to lean one way or the other). That said, I don't really think it turns a dress watch into a tool watch just cause the lugs are drilled. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Pogo247 (May 11, 2020)

Quite a lot of Grand Seiko's have drilled lugs as well, my SBGV245 has them and I love it as the watch is a proper strap monster. They even have them on some of the snowflakes and high end models as well, including this $43k SLGH002. It's always another "tick in the box" if I see a watch that I like has them.

Personally, I can't see how a couple of holes on the side (that hardly anyone will see) will take away from the aesthetic.










Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

Yes, drilled lugs, in general, make watches less dressy. More importantly, they make vintage-y watches less vintage-y. The Antilles and Azores channel lot of that vintage compressor diver flare, and drilled lugs just don't go with it. I'm unaware of any other nouveau-vintage dive watches that have drilled lugs, especially if they have polished lugs (e.g., LLD, Zodiac, Oris Sixty-Five, CW C65s, etc.).

But here's the thing. Is anyone really going to say "oh, the drilled lugs RUIN the design. I'd have bought one, but because of those ugly lug holes, there's no way I'm buying it now"? I highly doubt it. Will the vast majority your customers appreciated the drilled lugs, even if it takes away from the design in the slightest way? Absolutely.

(You know what might be even better? A quick-release bracelet like on the CW 65 and even on the Hamtun H2. But I'm guessing that you're probably not into that.)


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Has anyone here an example of a dress (or dressy) watch with drilled lugs? Do people generally agree that drilled lugs are less appropriate on dressier watches? Are drilled lugs inherently more toolish?
> 
> What about the updated tropics? Should the lugs be drilled through?


I struggle to see the date window so drilled lugs ain't a problem. Other than the wearer, I really don't think anyone else sees them... most people don't even realise I regularly swap out watches.

To be honest, adding a bezel probably "dresses down" a watch more noticeably than drilled lugs for a lot of people... not in my eyes however.

I much prefer drilled lugs and screwed links...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

docvail said:


> What about the updated tropics? Should the lugs be drilled through?


Yes. Absolutely. Especially if you're putting them on bracelets.

Tap, talk, and buy another watch.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Any simple 3 hand (non-dive) gold watch on a leather strap will always look like a dress watch, whether it has lug holes or not. Anything not gold is up for discussion. 

Any watch on a steel bracelet will always look like a tool watch, regardless of lug holes.

All IMHO of course.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Changing topics (please, let's change topics)...drilled lugs?
> 
> I know the default answer is, "Yes, always, drill the lugs whenever possible", but before we settle for that, I want to raise a possible exception for discussion.
> 
> ...


Doc don't invent new problems where none need to be and just drill the damn lugs.


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

The Visitor Linden has drilled lugs, but they’re called pierced lugs on the website, making them much dressier.

Watch enthusiasts are a picky bunch, but has anyone really walked away from an otherwise great watch because it has drilled lugs? Normal people barely notice watches anyway, never mind four extra <1mm holes in them.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> Doc don't invent new problems where none need to be and just drill the damn lugs.


Maybe me talking **** about the new 2K1 bracelets taper has him second guessing himself?

I'm still buying one though, so maybe he doesn't care.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Changing topics (please, let's change topics)...drilled lugs?
> 
> I know the default answer is, "Yes, always, drill the lugs whenever possible", but before we settle for that, I want to raise a possible exception for discussion.
> 
> ...


Dress divers I think tend to look better without drilled lugs. The Oris D65 is a great example of this. The Aquis is all about function first. You'll probably break your wrist before you'd break the screw bar holding the bracelet on, and the crown guards are screwed in and can be changed out. The D65 is the opposite of that. Thin, elegant, bare minimum WR, and dresses up very well. It would still be a good looking watch if it had drilled lugs, but that single unbroken line of polished steel makes the watch seem dressier.

I don't really agree with the idea that drilled lugs are "less vintage" looking. The Zodiac SSWs and Oris D65s don't have them, but Seiko's megabuck 62MAS reissues do, and they don't look any less "vintagey" because of that.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

NTH Näcken Vintage Black enjoying some sunshine. The sun really makes the textured dial come out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Maybe me talking **** about the new 2K1 bracelets taper has him second guessing himself?
> 
> I'm still buying one though, so maybe he doesn't care.


I don't even know what we're talking about, so no, I don't care.

But, speaking of 2K1's...for those interested in the NTH 2K1's (Swiftsure and Thresher), full specs and images are now viewable on the NTH website - 2K1 Subs - Expected September 2020


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

I saw this was mentioned but this is my newest dress watch with drilled lugs.

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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

gokce said:


> View attachment 15345650
> 
> 
> NTH Näcken Vintage Black enjoying some sunshine. The sun really makes the textured dial come out.


Tempting... looks awesome! Great strap choice too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Update on the drilled lugs - it isn't happening.

Short explanation - it can't be done, based on where the lug holes need to go, the length of the lugs (the distance between the lug holes and the case side), and the case thickness / lug thickness (other clearance issues with the end-link vs case).


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Wow XL subs are super pricey. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> Wow XL subs are super pricey.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Bruh.....
For a non-DLC version its $75 more than the original subs.

For.....
A bigger, new 43.75mm case
Double the WR to 61atm while only increasing case thickness by 1.5mm

I'm not gonna go hunting, but please, show me a 13mm thick dive watch with 61atm WR for less than $1k.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Show me a person who's dived to 61atm with their wrist exposed to that pressure  Or even 30atm. Bruh.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Bruh.....
> For a non-DLC version its $75 more than the original subs.
> 
> For.....
> ...


I'll look for some but trident pro is 13mm thick and can be had for less than this on sale. There will be others as well. Plus with the ward you get a premium build quality. Also not sure why the extra depth matters.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Who had 18 hours on the over/under for time until 2K1 pricing discussion? 


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> Wow XL subs are super pricey.


Didn't you spend lots of word count posts bemoaning the price of the regular subs... and then actually bought one? I trust Chris knows his market and that they are priced correk. You may think different; I don't know either way, but if they sell out within 3 mos, probably they were priced where they should be.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> Short explanation


Nice! First time I've seen that happen in here.

Aaaand... cue a guy with a PhD in lug holes popping in to tell you what's what.

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> Show me a person who's dived to 61atm with their wrist exposed to that pressure  Or even 30atm. Bruh.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> and can be had for less than this on sale.


Apparently last year sometime, Drop had both the Amphion and Nacken on _sale _for $490.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Apparently last year sometime, Drop had both the Amphion and Nacken on _sale _for $490.


I think that's a great price I do greatly enjoy my tikuna.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...I was about to say I'm "happy" to discuss the pricing, but "happy" probably isn't entirely accurate. Willing to, yes, but it's certainly not how I'd prefer to spend my time.

Let me start with the MassDrop thing - they didn't have any NTH Subs available last year, at any price, nor the year before. 

They had precisely 17 NTH Subs available, back in January of 2017 (3.5 years ago). They offered to buy up the last of my Subs inventory at the time, and I sold to them on my usual wholesale terms. 

I honestly don't remember what their price was. If it was $490 at that time, so be it. Part of the reason I don't work with MassDrop or Touch of Modern is because they only sell at a deep discount. 

That was also back when we were doing pre-orders at a discount. If you ordered one in April of 2016, you could have gotten it for ~$400. Here again, I stopped doing discounted pre-orders, back in 2018. What year is this again?

At that time (2016-2017), those watches were $600-$625 new (the mix of what they had was about half-n-half), but that was with the old bracelet/clasp, before we added rhodium-plated markers, before Dan was regulating them all, etc. We've made a number of improvements since then, and obviously we raised the price $50 across the board since the Subs first went on sale, FOUR YEARS AGO. 

The 2K1's are larger, and have higher WR, so there's more materials cost. They also include an HEV, so it's a more complex case, and the printed/beveled minute tracks, so it's a more complex dial. 

I was saying, all through 2019, that we've been expecting our costs to go up in 2020. I'm surprised that anyone would be surprised that the 2K1's cost $50-$75 more than the 40mm Subs. What were you expecting them to cost?

The DLC coating adds more cost. Each part has to be individually coated. Think about the cost of doing that with each part of the case, each link in the bracelet, each part of the clasp. It adds to the cost, so it adds to the price.

Personally, when I look at watches like the Nodus Duality for $700, or the Halios Fairwind for $775, I think our price is very fair, and completely within the right range. My kids need to eat, too.

Is there another watch that's directly comparable on components and specs, which sells for less? I don't know. Probably. Do I care? No, not really. I'm not setting my pricing based on whether or not there's another watch that seems like it checks all the same boxes on the spec sheet but sells for less. There will always be some other watch someone wants to point to, which costs less.

The Swiftsure and the Thresher start at $725. That's their price. We'll see if that's too high soon enough.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Let me start by saying that I don't think that price is unreasonable. And I think all the points made make sense. The only thing I disagree with is the comparison to the Duality or Halios. Not because those watches are better in some way than NTH... Not because they're better finished or better quality. But because of where they are on the resale market versus NTH. 

For me, a serial flipper, that's a big deal. I know I can get better than $900 for my Seaforth. On the other hand I bought a Skipjack for $400 shipped last week. Not saying it's not worth the $650 it lists for. But NTH is a brand I'm usually able to find at a solid discount on the secondary market. Not every model of course. But I've never had a problem finding what I'm looking for if I'm patient. 

Not a swipe at NTH. And probably not something I should post as I'll probably get flamed. I've owned many Subs. Never had a problem with any of them. Even bought a couple at full price at one point.

Bottom line, you guys who pay the $725 will be getting a hell of a watch. I'm sure of it. Hopefully at some point down the line I'll grab one when you flip it. 

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As for the CW Trident - it's a very nice watch. If you like it better, buy it. There isn't much to criticize there.

But at least make it an apples to apples comparison.

The 42mm Trident (closest in size to the 44mm 2K1s) is 13.4mm thick. I also think that's with a flat crystal, whereas ours is double-domed. Were it flat, our case would be thinner.

Yes, the smaller versions of the Trident are thinner, but that's to be expected - as you decrease case and crystal diameter, you can make the crystal and caseback thinner, without compromising water resistance. That's just physics. 

It appears the 42mm is the biggest Trident they make now (I think there was a 43mm at one time). I got a lot of requests for a bigger version of the 40mm NTH Subs, and making the "XL" size 42mm didn't seem to make any sense, so we made it 44m. For guys who WANT a bigger size, the 42mm Trident probably isn't a good alternative, and so how it compares on features vs price seems less relevant.

The Trident does have a lot of nice features, though, and it seems quite fairly priced at $895 on the bracelet. I think that's a very fair bargain to be struck. For the cheapskates, ahem, I mean, bargain-hunters...I have no doubt that every piece they don't sell at that price will eventually be offered up for 15% off, which will make them a fantastic deal.

If you like it better at $895, buy it. If you don't like it enough at $895, then wait, and hopefully you'll be able to get one at 15% off, or one of their pre-worn pieces at 30% off, which would be a screaming deal.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Let me start by saying that I don't think that price is unreasonable. And I think all the points made make sense. The only thing I disagree with is the comparison to the Duality or Halios. Not because those watches are better in some way than NTH... Not because they're better finished or better quality. But because of where they are on the resale market versus NTH.
> 
> For me, a serial flipper, that's a big deal. I know I can get better than $900 for my Seaforth. On the other hand I bought a Skipjack for $400 shipped last week. Not saying it's not worth the $650 it lists for. But NTH is a brand I'm usually able to find at a solid discount on the secondary market. Not every model of course. But I've never had a problem finding what I'm looking for if I'm patient.
> 
> ...


Resale is largely driven by supply and demand. Halios and Nodus both make watches in smaller volume than I do, typically, especially if you're talking about the sold-out Seaforth.

Yes, there are versions of the Subs which you can scoop up for a bargain price, very often it's when those models are still in stock. There are also some that sell for full retail, sometimes more, when they're sold out. I've seen recent used prices range from $375 to $725.

Much like it is with Chris Ward, there's a premium to be paid when you want to buy exactly what you want, when it's available, new. Sometimes there's a premium to be paid if you miss out, and have to go hunting for something popular on the used market.

If you plan to take your chances and wait for the used market to offer up what you want, it may not be there, or may not be offered up for the price you'd like to pay, or the condition might be suspect.

For a better comparison - the Nodus Duality, which is now sold out, sold for $700 new. A quick search of WatchRecon shows a recent sale of one at $600. Seems about right to me.

I can't really account for what anyone else thinks is fair as far as used-market depreciation goes. I think 20% off full price is the minimum depreciation to expect in most cases, but it could be more or less. On the $650-$675 Subs, anything in the $500-$550 range seems about right, and that seems to be where the bulk of the used market pieces are. For every one that sells for under $500, I could point to one that sold for over $550. For every one under $400, there's one over $600.

When the DevilRays were still available new, used ones could be found for less than $500. Since they've been sold out, the average price of the last dozen sales that I could find is $675, just $25 under full retail, for a watch that's now over 2 years old. I sold two of mine for more than retail. I netted $775 on both (after PP fees & shipping). One guy on Facebook just paid $850 for one.

What can I say? It's supply and demand.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Not one, not two, but three WoT. They seem to be few and far between lately.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Deepest I’ve been is 210feet to the bottom of Lake George, upstate NY. A buddy and i wanted to hit the max for dive depth with no decompression so we shot down, dropped the extra weight belts and followed our bubbles up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Deepest I've been is 210feet to the bottom of Lake George, upstate NY. A buddy and i wanted to hit the max for dive depth with no decompression so we shot down, dropped the extra weight belts and followed our bubbles up.


So, you basically littered in Lake George?

Not cool, Bro.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> So, you basically littered in Lake George?
> 
> Not cool, Bro.


I know where it is, I'll pick it up next time I'm in the area. If its not there I'm going to be looking at you now you know where it is.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Did anyone get their invoice from Watchgauge for the Devilray? I am trying to figure out if I am in the first or second batch. Their IG post is confusing, is it on the way to him or to customers...










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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Did anyone get their invoice from Watchgauge for the Devilray? I am trying to figure out if I am in the first or second batch. Their IG post is confusing, is it on the way to him or to customers...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neither.

We're hoping to ship them to retailers tomorrow.


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## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

docvail said:


> The 42mm Trident (closest in size to the 44mm 2K1s) is 13.4mm thick. I also think that's with a flat crystal, whereas ours is double-domed. Were it flat, our case would be thinner.
> 
> Yes, the smaller versions of the Trident are thinner, but that's to be expected - as you decrease case and crystal diameter, you can make the crystal and caseback thinner, without compromising water resistance. That's just physics.


I don't know how CW measures these tridents - they have the 38mm listed at 12.7mm thick and the 40mm at 12.95mm, I measured 13mm and 13.5mm respectively. Or maybe I should buy new calipers 

Do note that the Duality initially sold for $600 and if I'm not mistaken, they've only done 1 small restock at full price. So most Dualities selling for $600 on the 2nd hand market were likely originally bought at that price. That said, I've owned one and won't hesitate to pay $700 if they release them in more colorways. There's one currently on recon for $550 if someone is looking for a bargain.

All of my NTH sold faster than most of my Noduses though, and I don't think I underpriced them (given how much I bought them for).


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

docvail said:


> Unlikely.
> 
> There's a version of the Scorpene coming, with the same features, though.
> 
> ...


Doc - I am late back to this thread but you are WAY frackin' nice here. I can think of no other supplier, producer, manufacturer that goes to this level of effort to let customers know they area about to be SOL on getting what is on their wishlist if they want it new out of the wrapper. Maybe later in the thread you whip out Mjölnir (that's one thing not really fixed in the WUS refresh - no knowledge of what happens later when when you comment earlier in a thread - time warp?) but people have no idea how rare it is to be able to have this direct convo. I've seen you tell people this many times. You rock!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

househalfman said:


> I don't know how CW measures these tridents - they have the 38mm listed at 12.7mm thick and the 40mm at 12.95mm, I measured 13mm and 13.5mm respectively. Or maybe I should buy new calipers
> 
> Do note that the Duality initially sold for $600 and if I'm not mistaken, they've only done 1 small restock at full price. So most Dualities selling for $600 on the 2nd hand market were likely originally bought at that price. That said, I've owned one and won't hesitate to pay $700 if they release them in more colorways. There's one currently on recon for $550 if someone is looking for a bargain.
> 
> All of my NTH sold faster than most of my Noduses though, and I don't think I underpriced them (given how much I bought them for).


I may be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure Wes told me the Duality was $700. Maybe the $600 was a pre-order price.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I bought a Scorpene used, and sold it for as much as I paid a few months later, in order to pick up an Amphion Commando. Then the Scorpene Nomad was released so I had to flip the Amphion -- that resulted in a loss, but proceeds went directly into acquiring the Nomad. Of course, since then, bezel inserts became available, and I could have saved mad bank if I'd just sat on the original Scorpene and picked up an insert for it, but such is life. 

When I got into this, I just missed a run of Halios, which I thought I really wanted. And was shocked when they started turning up immediately for +$200 over Halios retail. Then there was the whole Seiko Blue Alpinist fiasco. But I ain't even mad, bro -- the market's gonna market. 

I'm a tad more miffed about just missing out on the Nodus Contrail SS in sunray blue -- waited just a hair too long to pull the trigger and when I figured out I actually wanted one, they were gone. They don't seem to turn up too often used, but I've heard there will be a restock of them in the Fall. 

From my perspective, NTH retail pricing/stock availability is pretty much spot-on. Enough stock where if you want one, they are not gone immediately. The pricing helps -- if the pricing was lower, they'd sell out quicker. But pricing is not too high, obviously, since most models do sell out in a few months. And although used pricing is lower, it's not too huge a depreciation hit if you want to flip one, especially once the model is sold out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kgrier said:


> Doc - I am late back to this thread but you are WAY frackin' nice here. I can think of no other supplier, producer, manufacturer that goes to this level of effort to let customers know they area about to be SOL on getting what is on their wishlist if they want it new out of the wrapper. Maybe later in the thread you whip out Mjölnir (that's one thing not really fixed in the WUS refresh - no knowledge of what happens later when when you comment earlier in a thread - time warp?) but people have no idea how rare it is to be able to have this direct convo. I've seen you tell people this many times. You rock!


I typed a WOT response, but apparently if I close my Chromebook right after hitting "post reply", before seeing the reply posted, the internet rolls the bones, and sometimes, the dice turn up craps.

Shorter version - my motivations are many, including the sincere desire to see people get what they want before it's gone, the desire to see inventory turn over more quickly, and the completely nonsensical half-belief that if I put some effort into alerting people regarding models about to sell out, I'll feel less bad telling people we're not planning to make more when those people ask.

I don't know if it's at all logical, but in my head, if there's a guy here thinking about getting an Odin Blue, and if there's one piece left, and if I mention it here, and if he buys it, I won't have anyone ask when we're making more, or there'll be one less guy asking, or just one less guy asking here.

I don't think it is logical, though. It seems that no matter what I do, there's always someone asking about something soon after we sell out, no matter how long that took, or how many times we tried to alert the public that inventory was getting low.

There doesn't seem to be any way to spare me the frustration which comes from the impossibility of perfectly aligned supply and demand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I bought a Scorpene used, and sold it for as much as I paid a few months later, in order to pick up an Amphion Commando. Then the Scorpene Nomad was released so I had to flip the Amphion -- that resulted in a loss, but proceeds went directly into acquiring the Nomad. Of course, since then, bezel inserts became available, and I could have saved mad bank if I'd just sat on the original Scorpene and picked up an insert for it, but such is life.
> 
> When I got into this, I just missed a run of Halios, which I thought I really wanted. And was shocked when they started turning up immediately for +$200 over Halios retail. Then there was the whole Seiko Blue Alpinist fiasco. But I ain't even mad, bro -- the market's gonna market.
> 
> ...


This is in no way a jab at Halios or Nodus, or any other brand. And I've had this conversation with several brand owners...

This is an inventory business, but one with a long production cycle (4+ months), and very high inventory costs. In order for the business to survive (much less actually grow), it requires very careful management of supply, in an effort to align it as closely as possible with demand.

The only tools available to brand owners are the ability to manage production volume (but that ability is limited by our vendors' MOQ's), our ability to promote the brand and its products (limited by skill, budget, time available, and some external factors, like whether or not the kids in the cool clique like you), and how we set prices.

Perfect inventory management would be turning your inventory over 4x per year, or once every ~90 days (91.25, to be precise). It's not just because that's what the accountants say, but because of how cash flow in this business works.

In addition to the turnover rate, there is an objectively correct multiple to get from production cost to retail pricing. Price lower than that, and you're starving your business of its life-blood - cash. You'll sell more quickly, but with margins that are too thin to sustain your business (there's no "making it up on volume" - that's a fallacy).

Price higher than that, you risk the same thing happening, because even though your margins are more than healthy, your inventory won't turn over quickly enough, and so the higher margins do you no good. This is why the big luxury brands are turning their inventory over every 2-4 years, instead of 4x/year.

When a brand sells out too quickly (turns over their inventory too quickly), they either priced too low, produced too few, or some combination thereof. They hurt their business. When a brand doesn't sell out quickly enough (turns their inventory too slowly), they either priced too high, or produced too many, or some combination thereof (assuming the product doesn't suck in some way, and their promotion of it was at least adequate). They hurt their business.

Halios is often an extreme outlier, in that Jason will sometimes make a very limited number of pieces of a new model, and even when there appears to be clear demand for more (that demand manifesting itself in secondary market prices which are higher than original retail prices), he won't make more (I would definitely make more). I don't know the reasons why, but Jason seems immune from the concerns other brand owners have. If he shares those concerns, he's a master at hiding it.

Regardless, it seems that his pre-order on the Fairwind was open-ended. My understanding is that he planned to base his production numbers on the pre-orders. With literally unlimited supply available in that scenario, I suspect the secondary market prices for that model will not be high enough to create the same controversy which seemed to swirl around the Seaforth.

Nodus is also something of an outlier, in that they also tend to assemble in smaller batches than we do (100-150 pieces at a time, vs our typical release size of 300-600). Without telling tales out of school, they also do some things behind the scenes which are different than how I do things. I've told them, more than once, that they are very likely underestimating their true costs, and thus under-pricing as a result. In my last conversation about it with Wes, he seemed to acknowledge that has been an impediment to the growth of their business, and they've been looking for ways to improve.

There are many other brand owners, friends of mine, who have struggled to align their pricing, promotion, and production effectively. Some of them accept my advice about it. Some don't.

For the last two calendar years, NTH's inventory turnover has been under 100 days. It was something like 94 or 96 days in 2018, and I think 92 or 93 days last year (which is all the more remarkable considering sales for the entire industry fell off a cliff after Q2). For a watch company, especially a micro-brand, that's damned close to perfect. While some models might take 12-18 months to sell out, inventory turnover is an average, and on average, our numbers are very, very good.

People can say what they like about our pricing or "value for money". The numbers tell me we're pricing correctly, and that's all I need to know.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

Chris, am I wrong in thinking that the photos of the Swiftsure and Thresher on the website are computer generated? (Maybe they're just incredibly sharp). If so, when will photos of the actual watches be shown?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> Chris, am I wrong in thinking that the photos of the Swiftsure and Thresher on the website are computer generated? (Maybe they're just incredibly sharp). If so, when will photos of the actual watches be shown?


When the watches actually exist.


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## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hey doc sorry if I missed this but any gilt dial subs in the foreseeable future or should I grab one of the current ones if I really want one?


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## M. Smith (Jul 11, 2020)

I like the look of the pieces. Especially the blue sub model. I’m a sucker for subs!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

jjmc87 said:


> Hey doc sorry if I missed this but any gilt dial subs in the foreseeable future or should I grab one of the current ones if I really want one?


If it were me, I'd grab one of the current ones, if I really wanted one...

There was a list of potential Oct model releases, but I don't remember if there was a gilt watch among them.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> When the watches actually exist.


😄 Got it! I figured you would have pre-production models already.


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Technically NTH on the underside.

Still my go to 20mm tropic, although had to get some fancy spring bars from Ute to make it work with the Seiko on the topside.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

docvail said:


> Is there another watch that's directly comparable on components and specs, which sells for less? I don't know. Probably. Do I care? No, not really.


As someone who also runs a consumer based company.....you are my hero... Really...

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

New bad boy into the fold today following a great transaction with a fellow WUS member.










Very happy with the NTH takeover that's occurring in my collection..

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jjmc87 said:


> Hey doc sorry if I missed this but any gilt dial subs in the foreseeable future or should I grab one of the current ones if I really want one?


I'd love it if you grabbed one of the ones currently available.

We've got more of the Barracuda Vintage Black coming in October.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

M. Smith said:


> I like the look of the pieces. Especially the blue sub model. I'm a sucker for subs!


Blue? Which one? There've been at least eight I can think of, off the top of my head, not counting the two new 2K1 Subs in blue.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> 😄 Got it! I figured you would have pre-production models already.


We don't really do that any more.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Antjrice said:


> As someone who also runs a consumer based company.....you are my hero... Really...
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


Can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic, but I'm going to take that as a compliment either way.


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

docvail said:


> Can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic, but I'm going to take that as a compliment either way.


I thought you might say that, but I'm serious!

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> We don't really do that any more.


You missed the perfect opportunity for this.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Them flakes










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

Antjrice said:


> As someone who also runs a consumer based company.....you are my hero... Really...


I'm in sales, 50 and have worked for all sizes of companies. Have had to fire customers and am always devising ways to guide people into a constructive conversation about my products.

Doc's head doesn't need any inflating but the amount of crap he deals with deserves hearing kudos from those who've been there, so to speak.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Hi Doc,

Is A Time To Watch still an authorized vendor? The link on your website goes to "page not found" 

Thx


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> You'll sell more quickly, but with margins that are too thin to sustain your business (there's no "making it up on volume" - that's a fallacy).


Not looking to open a can of worms or take up a ton of your time, but since most of us (I think, at least based on the comments) enjoy and learn a lot from your insights, I wouldn't mind hearing more details about your thoughts on the '"making it up on volume" - that's a fallacy' comment. I'm with you there on physical goods, but, if you're cool with it, wouldn't mind hearing more. That said, I know you're not swimming in copious amounts of free time, but if you feel willing, I'm sure there's a few people who'd appreciate it.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## ryguy87 (Jan 6, 2016)

Wow the Polar Barracuda is REALLY nice.
That bezel choice is excellent in my opinion. Can't wait to see real pictures!

pic from one of doc's earlier postings


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Disneydave said:


> Not looking to open a can of worms or take up a ton of your time, but since most of us (I think, at least based on the comments) enjoy and learn a lot from your insights, I wouldn't mind hearing more details about your thoughts on the '"making it up on volume" - that's a fallacy' comment. I'm with you there on physical goods, but, if you're cool with it, wouldn't mind hearing more. That said, I know you're not swimming in copious amounts of free time, but if you feel willing, I'm sure there's a few people who'd appreciate it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

ryguy87 said:


> View attachment 15348811
> 
> 
> Wow the Polar Barracuda is REALLY nice.
> ...


Yeah, I feel the same. I'm looking forward to see the date version.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MuckyMark said:


> Hi Doc,
> 
> Is A Time To Watch still an authorized vendor? The link on your website goes to "page not found"
> 
> Thx


Ugh, I gotta update the links on my site.

Yes, for now, they're still an authorized vendor, but the DevilRay will be the last NTH release for them.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

ryguy87 said:


> View attachment 15348811
> 
> 
> Wow the Polar Barracuda is REALLY nice.
> ...


This is a watch Tudor should be making, but isn't. This may be the most tempting offering from NTH. Chris, will this be available this year?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Not looking to open a can of worms or take up a ton of your time, but since most of us (I think, at least based on the comments) enjoy and learn a lot from your insights, I wouldn't mind hearing more details about your thoughts on the '"making it up on volume" - that's a fallacy' comment. I'm with you there on physical goods, but, if you're cool with it, wouldn't mind hearing more. That said, I know you're not swimming in copious amounts of free time, but if you feel willing, I'm sure there's a few people who'd appreciate it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


When I talk about it with other brand owners, I usually start with an absurd example...

Imagine if you lost $1 on every sale. You sell 100 watches, you lose $100. How is selling 1 million watches going to solve that problem? In that scenario, the more you sell, the bigger your problems get.

So, obviously you can't lose money on every sale. But, how much profit do you need to make on every sale? What is "enough"?

Imagine you made $1 on every sale. So you put up your Kickstarter project, and you sell 1 million watches. You make $1 million in profit?

No, you don't. You only made $1 in GROSS profit. You're not done yet. Not even close.

First, you have to pay your overhead costs - the costs of running the business. Most of those are constant, no matter how much you sell, like the cost of internet access, the cost to maintain a website, etc.

You also have to pay your sales costs, most of which are variable - the more you sell, the more they cost, like PayPal fees, freight costs, etc.

Then, if you even have any profit left, you pay tax on that. How much of that $1 in gross profit is left to pay the owner for his time (NET profit)? Any reasonable person should intuitively understand that $1 gross profit is not enough, no matter how many you sell.

It's not just about the profit in each sale, though. It's also about the cash flow (which comes from inventory turnover). If I have $5,000 per month in fixed costs, I can't take 2 years to sell 500 watches. I'll run out of cash to pay the overhead before I get there.

So, logically, there's a price at which the profit is "enough". Below that point, it simply isn't enough. Above that point, you might be in danger of charging too much, and not turning your inventory over quickly enough (but that's a different problem, not germane to the "making it up on volume" topic here).

There are only so many hours available in the day. Within that time, you have to do product design, production management, marketing, QC, order fulfillment, customer support, etc. You have to deal with lost shipments, shipping delays, tech support, cut checks, shop for vendors, arrange reviews, do bookkeeping, deal with accountants and lawyers, bankers, etc.

When you don't charge enough for the product, you'll probably sell more, which sounds good, like you'll be "making it up on volume", but what you probably don't realize is that the more you sell, the more QC, order fulfillment, customer support, and other sales-related work you need to do. The more of that you do, the less time you have available to do everything else.

Again - there are only so many hours in the day. At a certain point, you run out of them.

"Making it up on volume" is the popular expression used when people assume that selling more brings economies of scale. But there really aren't any economies of scale when you outsource production, and your production volume is fairly small.

If I double my sales volume, all my fixed costs stay the same, so I'm gaining some efficiency there. It's better to sell 3000 than 300 pieces, if I'm paying Rusty and Aaron the same amount in product development, or paying the same for website maintenance.

But those costs aren't my biggest costs, not even close. My biggest costs are my variable costs, especially my production costs. My production costs don't go down when I go from producing 500 pieces to 1000 pieces. If anything, they go UP when I go from making 500 to making 300 (which is why I try not to go under 500).

Those "economies of scale" are already baked into my costs, because I'm outsourcing my production to vendors which have already achieved their own economies of scale. That's one of the main advantages in outsourced production - instant scale.

Our vendors are all working at full capacity. If I give them a 500 piece order or a 1000 piece order, it doesn't matter to them, because they're producing millions per year. I'd have to increase my volume exponentially before I'd be in a position to expect or demand lower production costs.

Look at some of the Kickstarter projects that blew up huge, because the watch was such a screaming deal. What always happens with them?

Delays. Unanswered emails. Partial shipments. Dissatisfied customers. Poor QC. Poor CS. The brand often turns out to be a one-and-done, because the owner hits the wall with fatigue. The brand owners didn't anticipate that selling a lot more would be a lot more work, but not a lot more money.

But just look at it logically. Assume that every production we do, 10% of the customers will require some sort of support (I'm just making the numbers up). If I make 500 watches, that's 50 customers who contact me before or after the sale, to ask questions, report a lost shipment, report a problem, request an exchange or return for refund, make a special request, suggest a change, etc.

If I sell 1500, it's 150 (minimum). If each of those takes up a half an hour of my time, that's time I can't spend doing something else, which is likely just as mission-critical. I'm going to feel more pressure. I'll fall behind on urgent tasks. Balls get dropped. Things fall through the cracks. I can't help it. Instead of answering your email today, I'll get to it when I get to it, if I ever do.

Worse yet, when I triple my volume, I'm more than likely going to have delays, because I'm exceeding the capacity of my vendors, or my own capacity.

Example - our assembly team is 6 people. They don't triple the size of that team when I triple my order size. It just takes 3x as long to do assembly. A 1500 piece production is going to take a lot longer than a 500 piece production. The case factory can't suddenly triple their capacity in order to get my cases done in the same time it takes to make 500.

If I based my delivery estimate for a 1500 piece production on the typical 500-piece production, I'm going to be off, by a lot. If we're off by a lot, I'll have a lot more people emailing me to ask when their watches will ship, which is just more support. We might go from 10% to 20% support rate at that point, maybe more, a lot more.

People think that if a brand raises $500,000 on Kickstarter, the brand owner made a lot of money. Not necessarily. Those Xeric projects probably do make a lot of money. Those guys (same guys behind Watches.com) are master marketers, and they know how to price product. They're doing millions per year in revenue. They have support staff. They're not doing everything themselves.

But the typical one-man-show micro-brand? Nah. Any small micro that puts up a huge number on KS is almost certainly not making enough profit, whether they realize it or not, and most probably don't, until it's too late.

Forget about having enough money coming in to hire help. They won't make enough to work the business full-time (so there are even fewer hours available in the day, for them).

I talked to Ross from Hamtun after his H2 project blew up. I told him he could have (and should have) charged 2x as much, sold 1/3 as many, and made the same profit, doing a lot less work, without nearly as many problems. He'd have sold fewer watches, to fewer customers, but he would have earned more goodwill with those customers. Instead of a lengthy thread with people complaining, there'd be a thread with people cheering.

That project (and many others which had similar issues) are examples of why you can't make it up on volume in this game.

Plus - the bottom-feeder customers are just the worst. The lower you price the product, the more complaints you get, and the more those customers demand in support, counter-intuitively. The guy coming up from the $200-$300 price range to spend $500-$600 is a lot more critical and demanding than the guy coming down from the $2000-$3000 range.

Go read some of that thread about the H2 project. The guys complaining don't accept that the watch was a screaming deal, so it's okay if the support isn't outstanding. Oh no. There's simply no reasoning with the most vocal complainers. I'm not saying no one has any reason to complain. I'm saying that the outcome was completely predictable. When you pay $300 for a $600 watch, expect some issues.

It was the same with the Deaumar Ensign. Tony thought he'd earn a lot of goodwill by selling a $500 watch for $300, and make his profit on the 2nd and subsequent models. Nope.

Many of the guys who would have been happy to pay $500 stayed away, because they figured he must have cut some corners somewhere. The bottom-feeders who paid $300 didn't appreciate the deal they got, put too many demands on his time, and abandoned him when he came out with his second model. There's no customer loyalty with the guys who buy because the price is just too good to pass up. They just move onto the next too-good-to-pass-up deal.

Tony was one-and-done. He didn't have enough profit in his business to stay in business, and fix problems that popped up down the line. Good luck getting support from any brand that goes out of business. What's their incentive to provide it?

So, no, there's no "making it up on volume" in this game, just like there's no "cutting out the middle man".

So much BS in this business.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> This is a watch Tudor should be making, but isn't. This may be the most tempting offering from NTH. Chris, will this be available this year?


October.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

After the WoT..... pallette cleanse.....

Here's a pic









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

"Making it up on volume" is the realm of brands, which, as an enthusiast, you don't want to buy.* Volume is the realm of fashion watches and brands like DW, MVMT, etc. By definition, it's something a microbrand just can't manage, and I'd be surprised if even smaller to mid-level companies with hired staff could, either. 

There's a lot of grousing about "manufactured scarcity" with even large brands like Rolex. But I think it may even have been Doc or somewhere he once pointed where it was explained that they might be at capacity right now, and producing more would mean unsustainable capital investment. Oddly, they are in the same position as Halios, where they could easily charge a higher MSRP on their more popular models to tamp down demand for better availability and see a higher margin...

*With exceptions. Casio, Seiko, and a few others come to mind.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Considering how much Seiko cuts QC and has hiked the prices, they probably also make a very significant profit per unit regardless of scale.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Any update on the next run of Devil Rays?


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## Grand Omega (Oct 15, 2019)

ryguy87 said:


> View attachment 15348811
> 
> 
> Wow the Polar Barracuda is REALLY nice.
> ...


Agree, that is one sharp watch. Well done. Entering the 'shut up and take my money' realm like the Devil Ray did for me.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> When I talk about it with other brand owners, I usually start with an absurd example...
> 
> Imagine if you lost $1 on every sale. You sell 100 watches, you lose $100. How is selling 1 million watches going to solve that problem? In that scenario, the more you sell, the bigger your problems get.
> 
> ...


That's an epic WOT.......


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

8505davids said:


> Any update on the next run of Devil Rays?


As a matter of fact...

I just got home from Dan's workshop. The first 148 are shipping to retailers now. And I've told my retailers to go ahead and start taking orders.

We pulled one out for a case replacement (the one in the pics below), and I sent one out as a sample for photos.
























Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> "Making it up on volume" is the realm of brands, which, as an enthusiast, you don't want to buy.* Volume is the realm of fashion watches and brands like DW, MVMT, etc. By definition, it's something a microbrand just can't manage, and I'd be surprised if even smaller to mid-level companies with hired staff could, either.
> 
> There's a lot of grousing about "manufactured scarcity" with even large brands like Rolex. But I think it may even have been Doc or somewhere he once pointed where it was explained that they might be at capacity right now, and producing more would mean unsustainable capital investment. Oddly, they are in the same position as Halios, where they could easily charge a higher MSRP on their more popular models to tamp down demand for better availability and see a higher margin...
> 
> *With exceptions. Casio, Seiko, and a few others come to mind.


Funny you mention MVMT...

About 4 years ago, I was approached by a group (venture capital, private equity, something like that) who expressed an interest in buying my business. We had a couple conversations, which ultimately led nowhere, but in one of them, they told me they talked to MVMT (this was well before they were acquired by Movado), and I was somewhat surprised to hear they made almost no profit.

It was explained to me that they were blowing tons of money on digital advertising - like, all their profits.

I shouldn't have been surprised, and later on, when I started doing the math, it made perfect sense. What did their watches typically sell for back then? $100-$120? Every brand owner I've been able to get to open up and tell me what they spend on advertising has told me their CAC (cost of customer acquisition - i.e., the amount of money spent to create one sale) ranges from $60 to $100.

Imagine spending $60-$100 to sell a $100-$120 watch. Even if you rock-bottom your production costs, and provide little to no support, you're not really making much profit, even if you're selling 500,000 units per year, which is the number that sticks out in my head, from a puff-piece I saw about MVMT, from around that time.

I was amazed at what Movado paid to buy that brand. The only way that sort of investment makes any sense at all is if Movado believed they could lower production costs further (and I can't imagine they were that high to begin with), increase sales (by plugging MVMT into their existing retail sales channels), and lower their advertising costs. It looked like a software company sale to me - they were buying a user base.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> That's an epic WOT.......


Hope someone learned something.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

More than one way to make money. Jeff Bezos didn't make profits for decades. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> More than one way to make money. Jeff Bezos didn't make profits for decades.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


You're an amazing specimen.

Bezos had investors. He didn't work for free.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I really enjoyed reading that post too.
Makes me even more excited to be a part of the NTH club.
Also the DR looking dangerously good. 
That new bracelet is sharp.
I just paid for mine.
Also a pic









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> More than one way to make money. Jeff Bezos didn't make profits for decades.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


You get that there's a minor difference between a relatively tiny watch company, and freaking Amazon.com, right? Uber and Lyft I think have literally never made money. They're able to operate because investors keep shoveling money into the furnace. So why can't your local dry cleaner operate that way? Because that's not how that kind of business works. A business like that operates on thin margins and likely can't survive a couple of *months *with red ink on the books.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Hope someone learned something.


I did. Thank you for the good read. =)

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## TGR11 (Jan 23, 2019)

Disneydave said:


> I did. Thank you for the good read. =)
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Me too. Excellent points made from a different perspective.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FYI - for those who wonder if they're signed up for the newsletter, it went out last night at 10pm Eastern Time (GMT-4).

It was mostly about the 2K1's, with a link to the blog.









2K1 Blog Post One - The History


Coming in September are our 2K1 Subs, the Swiftsure, and the Thresher. In keeping with the NTH “nod to history” theme, the 2K1 subs are vintage-inspired, specifically by the first dive watches fitted with helium escape valves and used for extreme-depth saturation diving in the late 1960’s and...




nthwatches.com


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

The new bracelet makes a whale of a difference on the desirability of the Devil Ray for me. Never really coveted one before, but now I am thinking about it. But I am generally a bracelet guy so the look of the bracelet is probably more important to me than most. The OG was just too busy for me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> The new bracelet makes a whale of a difference on the desirability of the Devil Ray for me. Never really coveted one before, but now I am thinking about it. But I am generally a bracelet guy so the look of the bracelet is probably more important to me than most. The OG was just too busy for me.


The original bracelet came about after some discussion between me, Aaron an Rusty, starting with my idea that I wanted something somewhat original, but also vaguely similar to some existing bracelets which had simpler designs, yet with more angularity in the shape of the links.

We were looking at bracelets on some Panerai, and the Certina DS-3 in particular, which was one of the main (yet widely overlooked) inspirations for the DevilRay. Everyone tends to see the DR as a Doxa homage, and I think the bracelet contributes to that, given it's visual similarity to some Doxa bracelets.

I was (and still am) proud of what we did with it, but I've also come to appreciate bracelets with simpler forms more. For all the apparent agreement that more/smaller links equates to greater comfort, H-Link and various 3-link styles seem quite popular, and I for one like them better, generally.

The new DR bracelet is based on a Certina DS-3 bracelet, specifically the one which appears to be from a 2004 re-issue they did. So, it's "vintage-inspired", yet also gives the DevilRay a more modern look, and helps to distance it from Doxa a bit more, I think.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Waiting to get a haircut...









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Even with the wrong date, this one rocks!


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Waiting to get a haircut...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The suspense is killing me!

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What is this? I'll tell you...

It's photographic proof the new DevilRay bracelet will fit the old DevilRay case.

Yes, we will have v.2 bracelets for sale on the website, soon enough.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

W-w-wait. Here's another shot of the Scorpéne...:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads-up, my friends - I'm just now discovering that our international freight costs have about doubled in the last six months. I didn't think we'd need to raise prices before October, but now I'm certain we will be raising prices $25 on the 40mm NTH Subs for the October release.


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## jkpa (Feb 8, 2014)

^ no surprise there. I’m in that industry and prices have gone way up, especially on air freight. It’s trending down again but for a while it was ridiculous, as it is when capacity gets limited.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jkpa said:


> ^ no surprise there. I'm in that industry and prices have gone way up, especially on air freight. It's trending down again but for a while it was ridiculous, as it is when capacity gets limited.


I was looking at my FedEx bills for the DevilRay tonight, trying to see if my costs went up. And oh, yeah, did they ever. It's the same with UPS (according to what I just paid to get all the boxes here) and DHL (UV torches).

I have a spreadsheet I built to help me zero in on prices for new models, taking into account my production and shipping costs, plus customs. I set the DevilRay prices when I got my production cost quote from my factory, back in November last year, before the world lost its mind.

Plugging the actual shipping costs I'm now paying into that spreadsheet, it seems I under-priced the DevilRays by $40 each. On 300 pieces - do the math. It's $12k I just pissed away in shipping costs. (But, yeah, tell me more about Jeff Bezos, and why my prices are too high, please.)

I just asked on Facebook if other brand owners are seeing it. One guy said it's "fake" increases, from couriers just trying to take advantage.

I mean, okay. Maybe so, maybe not. Maybe it's fewer flights, with less capacity, or whatever. Regardless of the reason, the fact remains, we're paying more, a lot more, than we were a year ago.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Hmmmm...

Wouldn’t a fake increase be equal to zero?

Those couriers and their artificial scarcity...


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> Wouldn't a fake increase be equal to zero?
> 
> ...


I just LQTM'd.


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## Pogo247 (May 11, 2020)

Hey Doc. Any plans to release any more of your tropic straps? Just picked up a mint Barracuda locally to me for a bargain ($600 AUD/$419 USD) and would like to try it on a tropic. Heard good things about your straps but couldn't see any for sale on your website.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pogo247 said:


> Hey Doc. Any plans to release any more of your tropic straps? Just picked up a mint Barracuda locally to me for a bargain ($600 AUD/$419 USD) and would like to try it on a tropic. Heard good things about your straps but couldn't see any for sale on your website.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


You don't see them because we've been sold out of them for about a year or more.

Not sure if we'll include them with the next release of the NTH Tropics yet.

I just got a $12,000 colonoscopy, courtesy of COVID-19.

Give me at least a few days to recover.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Pogo247 said:


> Hey Doc. Any plans to release any more of your tropic straps? Just picked up a mint Barracuda locally to me for a bargain ($600 AUD/$419 USD) and would like to try it on a tropic. Heard good things about your straps but couldn't see any for sale on your website.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


In the meantime, maybe check out WatchGecko's ZULUDIVER straps. Relatively reasonably priced, and they have both a pin buckle and a deployant version.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I mean, okay. Maybe so, maybe not. Maybe it's fewer flights, with less capacity, or whatever. Regardless of the reason, the fact remains, we're paying more, a lot more, than we were a year ago.





docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I just got a $12,000 colonoscopy, courtesy of COVID-19.
> 
> Give me at least a few days to recover.


Wishing you a speedy recovery. I think you've correctly identified your gastroenterologist as Dr. Corona. Lots of freight moves in the bellies of commercial passenger flights. Not a whole lot of those flying is this bizarro world.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

None of the UPS/fedex/dhlexpress freight moves in commercial flights; however regular mail does. Now that regular mail is backed up like a london sewer, more and more businesses are switching over to dhl/fedex/ups, thereby increasing the demand (and, possibly, load factor) on their fleets. In some cases, for some levels of regular post, the national post companies may contract these dhl(freight)/fedex to handle the intl' link, too. Hence, these fleet-owning companies are in a great position to bump up prices.


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

docvail said:


> When I talk about it with other brand owners, I usually start with an absurd example...
> 
> Imagine if you lost $1 on every sale. You sell 100 watches, you lose $100. How is selling 1 million watches going to solve that problem? In that scenario, the more you sell, the bigger your problems get.
> 
> ...


Doc - that was a WOT well worth reading and excellent advice to those who may not have yet run their own business of any sort. I have never worked longer hours, harder, and made less when turning my avocation into business ownership in my younger days. As an owner, you are the last one to be paid, assuming there is anything left. My advice - push the risk to someone like Doc and donate your extra time into the community doing the things you love


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Doc, I don't know if it makes any sense for low-volume (literally, as in size), small quantity, low-weight shipments, but you might check into surface freight consolidation services. It will add another 4-6 weeks delivery time to a production schedule, but is much cheaper than air freight.


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

kgrier said:


> View attachment 15353034


It's always bugged me that the deflector section is curved. The ship reminds me of Gonzo!

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> I just got a $12,000 colonoscopy, courtesy of COVID-19.
> 
> Give me at least a few days to recover.


I have had several colonoscopies, courtesy of advancing age, and the loss of my grandfather (in 1951) to colon cancer. The prep is the worst part of the procedure IMO.

Edit: Medicare takes care of the cost for me. 12K bux? Yikes!


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## jkpa (Feb 8, 2014)

All carriers love to raise prices when they can and since so many passenger flights and routes in general were canceled in the last several months, that meant severely reduced cargo capacity. DHL and the like operate their own planes so are less affected than companies who do not, but they were in a position where there was a lot of cargo to move and much fewer planes to move that cargo. Guess what happens? Highest bidder wins. In a normal year, this happens as well. A good example is every time a new iPhone comes out and also when we hit peak season in the fall and importers need their Xmas stuff into the country before the holidays. Companies like Apple for example pay a premium to the carriers to move their cargo and everyone else get bumped to the next flight (if there is one that’s not also full) OR they pay a huge premium to get “first” in line.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

MikeyT said:


> I have had several colonoscopies, courtesy of advancing age, and the loss of my grandfather (in 1951) to colon cancer. The prep is the worst part of the procedure IMO.
> 
> Edit: Medicare takes care of the cost for me. 12K bux? Yikes!


I'm _pretty_ sure you missed a vital part of the colonoscopy story.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> I'm _pretty_ sure you missed a vital part of the colonoscopy story.


Yup. They are recommended to everyone at 50. 40, if you have a family history of Colo-rectal cancer. My next one will be next year. There are other tests, but the colonoscopy is the ne plus ultra.


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> I'm _pretty_ sure you missed a vital part of the colonoscopy story.


Good information.....regardless!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Doc, I don't know if it makes any sense for low-volume (literally, as in size), small quantity, low-weight shipments, but you might check into surface freight consolidation services. It will add another 4-6 weeks delivery time to a production schedule, but is much cheaper than air freight.


Yeah, adding 4-6 weeks isn't going to work.



MikeyT said:


> I have had several colonoscopies, courtesy of advancing age, and the loss of my grandfather (in 1951) to colon cancer. The prep is the worst part of the procedure IMO.
> 
> Edit: Medicare takes care of the cost for me. 12K bux? Yikes!


You missed the humor I was intending. I may need to dial it up a notch next time.

The colonoscopy I got was figurative, not literal. I was talking about the added shipping charges on the DevilRay.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

So the devil Ray shipping should have raised the retail price of ea $40? , the thresher and swiftsure were priced prior to this and not seeing an increase? But the 40mm subs in the fall will see a $25 increase? 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Some days I wonder if some people actually get a sense of joy from disagreeing about stuff.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> Some days I wonder if some people actually get a sense of joy from disagreeing about stuff.


I disagree with you on that.......


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> None of the UPS/fedex/dhlexpress freight moves in commercial flights; however regular mail does. Now that regular mail is backed up like a london sewer, more and more businesses are switching over to dhl/fedex/ups, thereby increasing the demand (and, possibly, load factor) on their fleets. In some cases, for some levels of regular post, the national post companies may contract these dhl(freight)/fedex to handle the intl' link, too. Hence, these fleet-owning companies are in a great position to bump up prices.


Agree to disagree (maybe just for the fun of it ) on the commercial flight part?

With you on postal services and cargo airlines having a symbiotic relationship as standard practice.


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## dm13 (Mar 28, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> I disagree with you on that.......


I agree with your disagreement

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm loving the way the "ignore" feature works now. I actually have to log out to see what someone on my ignore list said.

Why would I do that to myself?

Because I love people!

*"So the devil Ray shipping should have raised the retail price of ea $40?"*

That is correct, yes.

* "the thresher and swiftsure were priced prior to this and not seeing an increase?"*

Prior to what?

I revealed 2K1 pricing six days ago, before I took the time to precisely calculate all my shipping and customs costs on the DevilRay, but after I knew my shipping costs from the March release, and after I had to pay (in advance) for two other shipments - one of boxes, and one of UV torches.

For watches, my factory uses my FedEx account, so I don't know my shipping / customs costs on the watches until after I get them, and can look up the bill in my FedEx acount. For boxes and other stuff (UV torches), the vendors can't use FedEx, only UPS or DHL, so I have to pay for shipping in advance. Even though we just got them, I paid those shipping costs weeks ago.

I had no way to know what my shipping costs were going to be in July when I decided to make more DevilRays, and set pricing, way back in November. But I knew shipping costs had gone up by the time I had to set 2K1 pricing in stone six days ago. It just took me a few days (five, to be precise) to actually look at my FedEx bill from the shipment of DevilRays.

I knew enough to ballpark what the shipping costs are going to be on the 2K1's last week, before I revealed pricing. So, no, you're not seeing an increase, because I set pricing after our costs went up.

_*"But the 40mm subs in the fall will see a $25 increase?"*_

That is correct, yes. See all the above for a completely logical and thorough explanation.

I mean...call me crazy, but I get the feeling you think I'm bull$hltting you.


















Once again, as I've been saying publicly, especially since last year - we've been expecting cost increases for some time (actually, since spring of 2018), due to movement shortages, increased costs on other components, and increased labor costs. The corona-caused increase in shipping rates is just a recent (and unexpected) bonus.

The October price increase isn't JUST because of the shipping costs, it's because all costs have gone up, including shipping, which has about doubled since last year.

I've been holding off on raising prices as long as I could, because, contrary to what you may believe, I'm not a greedy fool who thinks he can charge whatever he pleases, without any adverse consequences.


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## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

Do you happen to take payment in personal training sessions?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jjmc87 said:


> Do you happen to take payment in personal training sessions?


While those are more valuable to me than "social media exposure", we don't, sorry.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Some days I wonder if some people actually get a sense of joy from disagreeing about stuff.


My two brothers in-law are a couple of the most disagreeable people I've ever met.

They're so much fun to be around.


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## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

docvail said:


> While those are more valuable to me than "social media exposure", we don't, sorry.


😢


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> You missed the humor I was intending. I may need to dial it up a notch next time.
> 
> The colonoscopy I got was figurative, not literal. I was talking about the added shipping charges on the DevilRay.


I'm a bit slow at times. Often more than a bit.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> I'm a bit slow at times. Often more than a bit.


Don't feel bad. I ain't nearly as fast as I used to be.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Don't feel bad. I ain't nearly as fast as I used to be.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Hope you're not still waiting for that haircut...

Also, I've slowed to near inert.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

It came!

Six week wait, and totally worth it.

It's hard to describe the difference between pictures and the real thing, but it's significant.

The way it feels on the wrist, the thinness, the lume...

Doc, I gotta say, well done.

I had been prepared to catch and release, honestly. None of my watches are over $300. This is twice that. Could it really be worth it?

Yep.

It crushes my beloved 8926 mod. It's destroys the Orient Ray. It blows my new SRPE out of the water.

It's... great.

(Sorry for the crappy picture, the light is dying quickly and I just opened it)


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> It came!
> 
> Six week wait, and totally worth it.
> 
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> It came!
> 
> Six week wait, and totally worth it.
> 
> ...


Thank you, and glad you like it.

Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

First of all, who does that? What kind of brand owner offers a random guy on a forum support for a watch bought on the secondary market from a foreign country? That's awesome. Thank you.

But, I don't think it'll be giving me any trouble! (Unless I try to take the bezel off to change the insert... )


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> First of all, who does that? What kind of brand owner offers a random guy on a forum support for a watch bought on the secondary market from a foreign country? That's awesome. Thank you.
> 
> But, I don't think it'll be giving me any trouble! (Unless I try to take the bezel off to change the insert... )


If you're not already aware of it, I suggest you go take a quick read about the 6&6 Guarantee on the website. Retroactive to the companies founding in '16, and iirc fully transferable.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Our warranties have always been transferable. 

I just never saw the point in not letting the warranty go with the watch, knowing how many customers are enthusiasts, and how often enthusiasts buy / sell used watches. Aside from the potential effect on resale value (I have no idea if the transferability of the warranty has any impact, but I figured there was no point in chancing it), it just seemed like the right thing to do. 

We routinely provide support for watches which are past their warranty expiration, depending on circumstances.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

The raised indices don't come through in stock photos, but are striking irl.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> ...
> I had been prepared to catch and release, honestly. None of my watches are over $300. This is twice that. Could it really be worth it?
> 
> Yep.
> ...


They are pretty darn nice. Now that you've come to a conclusion on $300 -> $600, you can look forward to wondering if doubling your spend again on something else would be worth it. If you figure that one out, let me know.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> They are pretty darn nice. Now that you've come to a conclusion on $300 -> $600, you can look forward to wondering if doubling your spend again on something else would be worth it. If you figure that one out, let me know.


That's pretty much where I am now. My current mix is a blend of NTH level price ranges - SKX mod, SBDC059, never-ending Samurai mod project, and roughly double that with my Oris D65 and SDGC009.

Are you getting a lot more in terms of specs with those watches? No. Oris uses unregulated SW-200s which are well under $200 retail, and while the multi-hand Seiko 6R21 is more complicated, Seiko still uses it in much less expensive watches. I'm not really spec obsessed though, at least when it comes to my watches.

The Oris uses a pie pan dial, which _is _more expensive for them to produce than a flat dial, and the bubble crystals that Oris uses are more convincing than most. When you compare it to the relatively similar looking but outrageously expensive Seiko 62MAS reissues, it's something of a bargain in that sense, particularly if you factor in the second hand market where D65s go for $900-1200 or so. The Seiko is all about the dial. Nobody else does the Cocktail Time look, and the 009 is way more impressive than the typical Cocktail Time.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Yeah, adding 4-6 weeks isn't going to work.


Not on the Devil Ray shipments, not if you've already planned production on the October subs for air freight, and it's too late to back your schedule up a month, but maybe into 2021?

We use the additional ship time to drum up publicity, marketing, and sales with a very limited quantity of air freight advance samples.

But. Different business, different shipping situation - 5000 tarot card decks makes sense to ship ocean freight, and we build it into our production schedules. Watches? Maybe not so much?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Not on the Devil Ray shipments, not if you've already planned production on the October subs for air freight, and it's too late to back your schedule up a month, but maybe into 2021?
> 
> We use the additional ship time to drum up publicity, marketing, and sales with a very limited quantity of air freight advance samples.
> 
> But. Different business, different shipping situation - 5000 tarot card decks makes sense to ship ocean freight, and we build it into our production schedules. Watches? Maybe not so much?


I've got at least a 4 month production cycle. There's no way I can add another month to a month and a half. That simply will not work.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Anyone got the background story of this hacked lug? Saw the watch without movement for sale on another forum...


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Anyone got the background story of this hacked lug? Saw the watch without movement for sale on another forum...


*****. This world is full of savages.

The timing is coincidental. Just within the last few days, I got an email from someone saying they took the bezel ring off the mid-case of their Commander 300, trying to do an insert swap (exactly what I've said not to do), and when they got it back on, it wouldn't turn.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Slant said:


> Anyone got the background story of this hacked lug? Saw the watch without movement for sale on another forum...


If I had a nickel for every time I had to use a grinder to remove springbars.

And where did the movement go? Are the dial and hands included?

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Yeah, dial and hands are included. Looks like it's the whole watch they are selling including bracelet even the stem, minus the movement 🤔


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Yeah, dial and hands are included. Looks like it's the whole watch they are selling including bracelet even the stem, minus the movement 🤔


Someone emails me to ask if we sell movements in 3...2...


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Someone emails me to ask if we sell movements in 3...2...


Do you sell movements?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

ryan850 said:


> Do you sell movements?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


He does! It includes the rest of the parts as well

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

captainmorbid said:


> He does! It includes the rest of the parts as well
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Solid. I get tons of extra parts and I don't even need to get any friends to buy one with me.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Slant said:


> Anyone got the background story of this hacked lug? Saw the watch without movement for sale on another forum...


I'd hazard a guess that maybe someone used a shoulderless spring bar. And then panicked realizing they are only for drilled lugs?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> *****. This world is full of savages.
> 
> The timing is coincidental. Just within the last few days, I got an email from someone saying they took the bezel ring off the mid-case of their Commander 300, trying to do an insert swap (exactly what I've said not to do), and when they got it back on, it wouldn't turn.


Hey Doc are you sure I was supposed to shoot myself in the foot to get the bezel insert swap done? I have a big hole in my foot now and it's really painful.

Doc: I explicitly said DO NOT SHOOT YOURSELF IN THE FOOT.

Yeah, I don't really read stuff.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Hey Doc are you sure I was supposed to shoot myself in the foot to get the bezel insert swap done? I have a big hole in my foot now and it's really painful.
> 
> Doc: I explicitly said DO NOT SHOOT YOURSELF IN THE FOOT.
> 
> Yeah, I don't really read stuff.


It's sarcastic, and yet, to me it feels like it's not that far off from reality.

A guy contacted me yesterday to bring up a few complaints with a watch he'd received Saturday. From what I could see in the pic he sent, there was nothing wrong with it, but I could also see he'd removed all the wrappings, and probably sized the bracelet, since the pic was a wrist-shot, and it didn't appear to be dangling off his wrist.

Those situations are the worst - the ones where the guy isn't happy, is expecting some sort of resolution, but there isn't one to be had, and since he's been wearing the watch, it's not returnable for refund, which otherwise would have been the only resolution possible.

I pointed out that since he'd been wearing it, it wasn't returnable. He said he hadn't been wearing it, he'd only tried it on, as one would do in a store.

I mean - the wrappings were off. It was on his wrist. It appeared to be sized. How is that not "wearing it"?

I've been waiting for him to show up online, blasting us for horrible quality and customer support, ever since.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Scroom.


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## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

Got my first NTH in the mail a couple days ago secondhand. After being blown away by the gilt relief on the Barracuda VB I dove head first into checking out a bunch of different NTH subs and stumbled across the Barracuda Brown. After getting this in the mail, it's honestly better than I expected even given the specs and reviews. Just want to say thank you Doc for the attention to detail and creativity in these pieces as well as the value. Looking forward to getting my hands on a couple more once my wallet and wife permit.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This hobby would be so much better if not for all the wives...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I mean - the wrappings were off. It was on his wrist. It appeared to be sized. How is that not "wearing it"?


Because to most people, "wearing it" means having it on wrist for at least a day, and more likely a week.

Removing wrappings and sizing it is "trying it on".

Think of shopping for a dress shirt at a department store, one that's all folded neatly around cardboard and held together with pins. If I take all the pins out and unfold it and remove the cardboard and try it on in a dressing room, have I "worn" it? Must I now pay for it and keep it whether I liked it or not???

Uh, no.

That's the ethos than many of your customers will have doc.

I completely understand your point, but I wonder if you're communicating it as clearly as possible. (Maybe you are, haven't checked your site.) NO removing of plastic protectors from anywhere on the watch! NO removing of links from the bracelet! Etc.


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

Avo said:


> Because to most people, "wearing it" means having it on wrist for at least a day, and more likely a week.
> 
> Removing wrappings and sizing it is "trying it on".
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I'm with you on that one with regards to online watch sales.

I think all producers/brands would take the same stance that if you size it and remove all the packaging, you've worn it. As to whether a refund from that point is allowed is up to the brand.

That's why you do your QC and check you like it in the metal before the above.

I can appreciate a non enthusiast occasionally may not understand that culture but that doesn't mean they're right.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Because to most people, "wearing it" means having it on wrist for at least a day, and more likely a week.
> 
> Removing wrappings and sizing it is "trying it on".
> 
> ...





Antjrice said:


> I'm not sure I'm with you on that one with regards to online watch sales.
> 
> I think all producers/brands would take the same stance that if you size it and remove all the packaging, you've worn it. As to whether a refund from that point is allowed is up to the brand.
> 
> ...


I don't know of any stores that will let you remove one of those dress shirts from the plastic, take all the pins out, try it on, and then NOT buy it. I'd think most would say those shirts can't be tried on, so you need to have measurements taken, which most stores that sell those shirts can do.

It's an interesting example, because I watched my uncle, who owned a men's clothing store, take great pains to explain to every customer who bought one of those shirts, that he had sample shirts available for customers to try on, and that he did not accept returns of those shirts if they were not still folded up, with all the pins in place, etc.

It was the experience of watching him refuse a return of one of those shirts which seared into my memory, and became the basis for my own return policy.

Our policy isn't simply that the watch is "unworn", which of course can lead to arguing over the interpretation of the word, but specifically says the watch must still be in "*as-delivered condition*, with *all original packaging and protective covers in place* " (bold face as it appears on our website). Anyone with even a basic understanding of English should have no trouble understanding it.

Likewise, most retailers have similar terms. This is from the returns page on Serious - "as long as the watch hasn't been worn, damaged in anyway and that *all the tags and foils are still in place*" (bold face added by me).

I don't think "many" customers would assume they can return a watch after completely un-wrapping it, and sizing the bracelet, to wear it for even a moment. As proof, I'd point to the fact that even WITH all the wrappers in place, I've had customers question whether or not the watch they'd received had been worn, if so much as the crystal protector is missing, or for other reasons, such as some scuff on the box.

Everyone expects a brand new watch to still be brand new, which means not unwrapped. I can't fathom how anyone would think otherwise.

And yes, that is why everyone should do their own personal QC on all new arrivals. If they buy from my site directly, it's not like we don't go to some lengths to advise them of that. There are no less than 11 separate instances in which we tell customers to make sure they are satisfied before removing all the wrappings and wearing it.

Yes, 11.

There's the card with the watch, the packing slip from our warehouse, and all the emails and text messages that get sent, from order confirmation to delivery notifications. It's 2 physical forms of notice, plus 9 digital, with a mix of email and text.

At any rate, and regardless of how much effort we put into this - please, for the love of God, why in the name of all that's holy would anyone in their right mind begin wearing a watch with a "glaring defect"?

It the "defect" was so "glaring", wouldn't that person have noticed it immediately upon opening the box? Surely they'd have seen it while (if not before) removing the wrapping, and sizing the bracelet?

We're talking about the bezel alignment? (Usually, we are, and in this case, that was among the complaints.) Why would you start wearing the watch, then decide to raise the issue with us? Surely you could have seen that immediately, if the issue is "glaring", no?

Some microscopic imperfection on the dial or hands? Again, if it made it through 6 rounds of QC, and your initial observation, odds are we won't be fixing it for you after you've been wearing it. If you plan to pick it apart using a high-powered loupe or macro lens, do that before you start wearing it.

The bracelet is too short? Come again? How is it you only discovered that AFTER you removed all the wrapping? I'm sorry, but I'm extremely skeptical you didn't slip it over your wrist immediately, before removing the wrapping on the bracelet.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avo said:


> Because to most people, "wearing it" means having it on wrist for at least a day, and more likely a week.
> 
> Removing wrappings and sizing it is "trying it on".
> 
> ...


Edit: Doc beat me to it.








I may not be the smartest man. But if you size the bracelet, it's no longer "as delivered".


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## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Doing my occasional reappearance in this thread here once in a while to add my completely unnecessary opinion in regard to two issues that have been discussed here lately. 

First: congrats for the new designs doc! The bigger ones seem to be something your fans with manly wrists (sorry!!) have been asking for, for quite some time! And the devil ray is back! Is it me, or is the colourful chapter ring more..“saturated“ (sorry for the lack of a better word)? The colors seem to be more...vibrant?
It’s surely something special that watch. And I may be wrong, but I got the impression, that the devil ray holds a special place in your heart - so it’s really cool to see it back - means, you sensed a measurable demand for it! Great!

Second: while I don’t necessarily agree with you on the „unworn“ thing, especially regarding clothing and internet purchases... I can verify, that you definitely and clearly point it out on your website. 

One can disagree on your terms and conditions, but still, it’s the conditions under which you sell the watch. Everyone is free to leave it as is and not buy. But if you buy, you agree to the terms and conditions, no? Easy. 


Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Doing my occasional reappearance in this thread here once in a while to add my completely unnecessary opinion in regard to two issues that have been discussed here lately.
> 
> First: congrats for the new designs doc! The bigger ones seem to be something your fans with manly wrists (sorry!!) have been asking for, for quite some time! And the devil ray is back! Is it me, or is the colourful chapter ring more.."saturated" (sorry for the lack of a better word)? The colors seem to be more...vibrant?
> It's surely something special that watch. And I may be wrong, but I got the impression, that the devil ray holds a special place in your heart - so it's really cool to see it back - means, you sensed a measurable demand for it! Great!
> ...


The depth gauge on the DR is no different than it was in the v.1, as far as I know. But I should be able to compare them side by side soon enough.

The DR does have a special place in my heart. I personally think it's the best work my team has done, it's an original design, and there's truly nothing I'd change about it, if I could go back and do it again, which is a rare thing for me to say about any design.

People can disagree about the rightness or wrongness of return-ability on all sorts of things. I blame Amazon for giving the people the idea that it's okay to use a product, any number of times, and then return it.

I also blame people's inherent / implicit dishonesty in that act. If you're buying something to own, don't treat the purchase like it's a rental. If you're going to a wedding, and need a pair of dress shoes, then buy some damned dress shoes, and keep them, even if you will rarely have occasion to wear them. Don't try to return them the day after the wedding, and make up some bull$hlt like "they hurt my feet."

Regardless of whether people agree or disagree - as you say, our terms are clear, as are most website's, if people would bother to read them before making a purchase. But I suspect most people don't, hence the 11 separate attempts we make to inform people (I forget if that number includes the two separate instances on the website, but if not, then it's 13 attempts).

Don't misunderstand me - I'd never try to avoid "making things right" for someone by hiding behind our policies. If we shipped something that shouldn't have passed QC, and it's brought to our attention soon after delivery, we'll do what we can to sort it out. But those aren't the situations that we end up dealing with.

It's always the same story, i.e, someone decided to begin wearing a watch, for some length of time, then decided to bring up whatever complaint they have, which is usually something we can't / won't sort out, not because they've been wearing it, but because it's within our QC standards (otherwise, it more than likely WOULD be "obvious", and they wouldn't have been wearing it), AND because they've been wearing it.

If they'd alerted us to the complaint on delivery, we'd have happily accepted a return for refund, if the complaint is about something that's actually within our standards. If not, and we simply missed something in QC, then I'm happy to offer an immediate replacement.

But once the watch is worn, both of those options are no longer available, because I can't sell the watch to someone else as new (even if we addressed whatever the complaint may have been). At that point, the returns policy is moot. We're only dealing with the warranty, which ONLY covers mechanical malfunction, not complaints about things which could have been detected on delivery.

So, you wear the watch, then find something to complain about, you're probably SOL.

It's so simple - just inspect the goods you buy before you begin using them. Once you alter the goods' condition, most online sellers do not accept returns.


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## Slowphiveo (May 1, 2020)

Purchased my 1st NTH watch (Pre-owned) and it was delivered today. I wanted a Nazario for a while but had trouble locating one...finally got it! Could not be happier with the stunning appearance and the build quality/fit and finish is amazing. Well done Doc! I also love the Philly connection...I'm out in Bucks Co.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slowphiveo said:


> Purchased my 1st NTH watch (Pre-owned) and it was delivered today. I wanted a Nazario for a while but had trouble locating one...finally got it! Could not be happier with the stunning appearance and the build quality/fit and finish is amazing. Well done Doc! I also love the Philly connection...I'm out in Bucks Co.
> View attachment 15358425


Ugh, Bucks county.

To those of us in Delco, you may as well be saying, "I live on Mars!"

Glad you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


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## Slowphiveo (May 1, 2020)

docvail said:


> Ugh, Bucks county.
> 
> To those of us in Delco, you may as well be saying, "I live on Mars!"
> 
> Glad you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


Thanks! And the feeling is similar for those of us here haha.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slowphiveo said:


> Thanks! And the feeling is similar for those of us here haha.


Truth - I'm from here, and I absolutely hate that Delco accent. The thicker it is, the more it feels like my ears are being raped.

It's almost as bad as the mid-state accent my wife's relatives have. The first few years we were together, every time her dad said anything to me, I'd just say "uh-huh," then turn and whisper to her, "what the hell did he just say?"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That video was way too long, and not nearly funny enough to watch more than a few minutes.

If you want to see some funny videos making fun of Philly people, watch these - Bird Text.

The Real House Husbands of Philadelphia, and Deck the Hall & Oates are hysterical.


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## Slowphiveo (May 1, 2020)

docvail said:


> That video was way too long, and not nearly funny enough to watch more than a few minutes.
> 
> If you want to see some funny videos making fun of Philly people, watch these - Bird Text.
> 
> The Real House Husbands of Philadelphia, and Deck the Hall & Oates are hysterical.


Never seen those before...good stuff! Haha


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

What the **** did I just watch?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slowphiveo said:


> Never seen those before...good stuff! Haha


If you liked those, check out the Comedy Central online series, "Delco Proper", written by and starring some of the same guys.









Delco Proper | Comedy Central


Two buddies who've worked in the same lumberyard for years know one thing: It's hard to change in a town that doesn't.




www.cc.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> What the **** did I just watch?


Just a small taste of the awesomeness that is Delaware County (and to a lesser extent, Philadelphia in general).


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## Slowphiveo (May 1, 2020)

docvail said:


> If you liked those, check out the Comedy Central online series, "Delco Proper", written by and starring some of the same guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I definitely will.


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## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

As this has previously been discussed before:

ETA is allowed to supply movements to third parties again, the ban has been lifted:









Industry News - Swatch Group x COMCO - Ban Lifted on ETA


COMCO, the Swiss Competition Commission, has just announced that ETA (Swatch Group’s movement manufacturer) is now free to deliver movements to third parties with no obligations or restrictions. Last December 2019, the regulator issued an unexpected decision preventing Swatch from delivering to...




monochrome-watches.com


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Amphion on the wrist currently. And UPS tracking says my DevilRay is arriving today!









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> As this has previously been discussed before:
> 
> ETA is allowed to supply movements to third parties again, the ban has been lifted:
> 
> ...


Yep.

Full analysis starts here, post 549 - Event Horizon 2020 - the year everything changes?


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## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

What has been bothering me for a while - what is the legal situation with homage watches (or obvious copies like Tiger Concept) / design cues taken from other brands?

For example the snowflake hands, or the classic Rolex case shape, or the Submariner bezel insert - are homage watches ever being sued for violating IP rights from the big firms?

I guess certain design traits by the likes of Rolex, Tudor, Omega etc. are protectedby design patents, the duration of which varies from country to country. In the USA the design patent expires 15 years after the filing date. That means older designs like those traits from vintage watches (like the snowflake hands) pose no problem as the IP rights have long expired. 

But what's with more recent design aspects? 
a) do the big brands not file designs for hands/indices/case shapes? 
b) do they simply not care, or even benefit from it, as a Submariner homage act like a gateway drug, eventually resulting in you craving the real thing? 
c) were there any notable IP proceedings regarding violation of IP rights? 

Maybe you have some insight here, Doc?


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

karmadrome said:


> What has been bothering me for a while - what is the legal situation with homage watches (or obvious copies like Tiger Concept) / design cues taken from other brands?
> 
> For example the snowflake hands, or the classic Rolex case shape, or the Submariner bezel insert - are homage watches ever being sued for violating IP rights from the big firms?
> 
> ...


iirc, Panerai just won a suit against a Chinese homage mfg company.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

karmadrome said:


> But what's with more recent design aspects?
> a) do the big brands not file designs for hands/indices/case shapes?
> b) do they simply not care, or even benefit from it, as a Submariner homage act like a gateway drug, eventually resulting in you craving the real thing?
> c) were there any notable IP proceedings regarding violation of IP rights?
> ...


With how much effort has to go in to fighting outright counterfeit watches, I'm sure that they are much less concerned about some $200 Parnis. Nobody is going to show up at a Rolex A/D and ask to have their Parnis serviced, because it looks like a Submariner.

It's interesting the way some aftermarket parts sellers get around trademark laws, which are definitely much more strictly enforced than design patents. If you want to buy an AM Seiko dial for example, the seller can't get away with showing it with Seiko's logo on it, not on a commercial website anyway. Instagram and eBay are different. So what you'll sometimes see is "logo supplied with dial, must be installed by you" or if it's already on there, "dial has S***** logo."


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Here’s a follow up question relating to homages of the Rolex Sub(mil sub maybe)..

Since the original Sub was a mil spec design, would Rolex even have the the ability to own the design rights? Or, since it was built to government spec, would it be more like a fire hydrant? 

Also, homage talk usually requires fire hydrants.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Sweeeeeeeet.
Finally got a response from John over at WatchGauge. First name on the list for a DLC Vino Rosso. 

I have faith it won't disappoint in the looks department.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Regarding the legality of homages...

1. I'm not a lawyer. I only know what my IP lawyer has told me (and mine is one of the best), or what I think I understand from that, as well as understand from what I've read, which I think is a good bit, because reading comprehension is one of the few areas where I'm not woefully deficient. All that said, I'd defer to actual lawyers here, particularly @Perdendosi , who'll hopefully get his ass in here and bail me out.

2. My layman's understanding...

A. Generally, brand names (and I suppose model names, in some cases) are protected as trademarks, but at least here in the USA, design is only protected to the extent there's a FUNCTIONAL design innovation worthy of being granted a patent, but AESTHETIC design is NOT protected, generally (with some notable exceptions I'll get to in a moment). In short, you can protect the design FOR a watch (how it works), but not OF a watch (how it looks).​​EDIT - coming back to clarify that aesthetic design can be patented, BUT ONLY when there's some NEW INVENTION within the design, which is very difficult, if not impossible to achieve. As such, aesthetic designs are generally not protected by patent, unless a patent is granted due to something entirely new within the design.​​B. The notable and recent exception to the above is the AP vs SWI suit, wherein (my understanding of the case is that) AP was able to successfully argue that their design for the Royal Oak was so unique as to be effectively synonymous with their brand, and that SWI had copied it so closely that the public would be confused. This nuanced argument falls under the heading of "trade dress", which is part of IP law (I think more closely related to trademark than patent law).​
3. Panerai didn't win $hlt. That article was as light on news as I am on patience for other people's BS. It appears they won a "favorable decision" in the case, which (again, I'm no lawyer) just sounds like the judge granted them some preliminary motion or denied some motion from the other side. If they'd actually won a case, it would have been a much bigger story, to include details of the judgment. I suspect that they put out a press release about it because it's the only real "win" they're likely to achieve in that suit.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Here's a follow up question relating to homages of the Rolex Sub(mil sub maybe)..
> 
> Since the original Sub was a mil spec design, would Rolex even have the the ability to own the design rights? Or, since it was built to government spec, would it be more like a fire hydrant?
> 
> ...


A few years ago, Eddie Platts (yes, that Eddie Platts) told me that the Seamaster 300 was designed by the UK MOD, so it wasn't an "Omega" design, but rather an "MOD" design.

I wasn't about to argue with him, mostly because I didn't feel like researching it, but also because I could already see how he gets when something pisses him off. Thus, I took it at face value, and filed it under "M" for "maybe".

I'm not sure the Rolex MilSubs were milspec designs. The "Bond" Sub (ref 6538) seemed to be an evolution of the 6204. Did the MOD specify what they wanted the 6538 to be? I don't know.

Likewise, the 5517 came from the 5513, which I think was around for ten years before the MOD switched from Omega back to Rolex. There again, the history is unclear (to me). I don't know if the MOD spec'd out the 5513. If not, maybe the US or French Navy did (though the French were supplied by Tudor, the case of the MN Subs seems all but identical, at least visually).

In any case - see my post above. There really aren't "design rights" for how a watch looks, unless the brand can prove the look is so distinctive that it's effectively a brand mark (i.e, "trade dress", but again, I'll defer to a real IP lawyer - looking at you, @Perdendosi ).

Considering Rolex's devotion to Mercedes hands on the Submariners, I think they'd have a hard time making a case that something like the Amphion would confuse people.

My recent reading up on the history of the Sea-Dweller and COMEX Subs (for the 2K1s) was about as interesting, and also about as ambiguous. Depending on what you read, the Sea-Dweller came out in 1967, but apparently wasn't actually available to buy until 1971. So, was it a '67 model, or a '71 model?

COMEX was using 5513's prior to that (I think), or maybe not until the early '70's. They got 5513's fitted with HEV's in the early 70's, but if so, why not just get Sea-Dwellers? Was it their idea to retro-fit 5513's, or Rolex's? Why the 5513, and not the newer 5517 reference?

Apparently some of those watches are considered Submariner-Sea-Dweller "hybrids", and there may have also been "COMEX Sea-Dwellers" (not to be confused with the COMEX Submariners).

I read 2 Wikis about it all, and at least 4 or 5 different histories, between blogs and forums. I don't know which is the most accurate, so I kept our blog posts about it all somewhat vague. I know some stuff happened between the early 60's and early 70's. Exactly what happened, when, and who did what isn't important enough to me to figure it out.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

So I was looking at these a few weeks ago when I saw they were being released again. Nah, not for me. Then on Saturday I checked them out again online. I saw the post by @docvail saying that they were not sold out yet (Serious Watches). I ordered mine on Saturday. I figured that if I still didn't like it, I'd have no problem flipping it. Received it today. It is outstanding! I bought the blue, date model. Almost bought the white one. Still want the white one.









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

I should include one of these too...









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> 2. My layman's understanding...
> 
> A. Generally, brand names (and I suppose model names, in some cases) are protected as trademarks, but at least here in the USA, design is only protected to the extent there's a FUNCTIONAL design innovation worthy of being granted a patent, but AESTHETIC design is NOT protected, generally (with some notable exceptions I'll get to in a moment). In short, you can protect the design FOR a watch (how it works), but not OF a watch (how it looks).​​


Interesting. I work in the field of IP rights, but I don't have much experience with designs, especially not in the US. What you said would mean the principles of Design patents vary in the US. In Germany, for example, a Design protects just the LOOKS of a product - famous examples include the Coca Cola bottle or perfume flasks.

To my understanding, if it's about how it WORKS, then we're talking about regular patent protection which - in case of a watch - protects the technical functionality, like a new complication, a bezel locking system or quick-release straps, to give some examples.

The looks of hands, the distinctive shape of a case or other visual aspects should thus be protectable by a Design.

According to the USPTO:

"A design consists of the visual ornamental characteristics embodied in, or applied to, an article of manufacture. Since a design is manifested in appearance, the subject matter of a design patent application may relate to the configuration or shape of an article, to the surface ornamentation applied to an article, or to the combination of configuration and surface ornamentation. A design for surface ornamentation is inseparable from the article to which it is applied and cannot exist alone. It must be a definite pattern of surface ornamentation, applied to an article of manufacture."

(source: Design Patent Application Guide)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> Interesting. I work in the field of IP rights, but I don't have much experience with designs, especially not in the US. What you said would mean the principles of Design patents vary in the US. In Germany, for example, a Design protects just the LOOKS of a product - famous examples include the Coca Cola bottle or perfume flasks.
> 
> To my understanding, if it's about how it WORKS, then we're talking about regular patent protection which - in case of a watch - protects the technical functionality, like a new complication, a bezel locking system or quick-release straps, to give some examples.
> 
> ...


^ @Perdendosi - help me out here?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bolts40 said:


> So I was looking at these a few weeks ago when I saw they were being released again. Nah, not for me. Then on Saturday I checked them out again online. I saw the post by @docvail saying that they were not sold out yet (Serious Watches). I ordered mine on Saturday. I figured that if I still didn't like it, I'd have no problem flipping it. Received it today. It is outstanding! I bought the blue, date model. Almost bought the white one. Still want the white one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you like it. Thanks for posting it here. It seems like the NTH Fans group on FB has been overrun with DR pics the last few days, but here, not so much, and I'd been wondering why.

Like I just posted on FB, I love seeing people's pics of their new arrivals, and hearing that they're happy with the watch, and the service from our retail partners.

If you all are happy, the best thing you can do is leave a positive review on the retailers' websites (and mine, too, if you got the gumption), and spread the word in other parts of the forums, on social media, etc.

Word of mouth from happy customers is the best advertising.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Ugh, Bucks county.
> 
> To those of us in Delco, you may as well be saying, "I live on Mars!"


That's where I send my sheepskins to be tanned...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My understanding is that there are various forms of IP protection, including copyright, trademark, and patent. 

With design (looks) there is actual IP protection which can be registered nationally (USPTO) as part of an international treaty (WIPO). Length of design patent differs, country to country, and there are plenty of (typically Asian manufacturing) countries who have not signed on. 

In the case of a company like Rolex, they seem to enforce their trademark as best they can, when legally dealing with counterfeits falsely branded with the Rolex logo and name, but I believe they would have a hard time successfully litigating any kind of design/trade infringement due to length of time between establishing classic designs and now, general availability of specific design features, like the distinctive 3-partition hour hand, etc. 

Speaking of which, can Rolex even get away with calling their Sub hour hand "Mercedes"...? Which would be trademark infringement. As both the watch and cars are considered by many luxury items, shouldn't Mercedes be issuing a cease and desist or taking Rolex to court for using their logo on certain Rolex hour hands...? 

At some point, it seems like there is some common sense applied to such issues, even if there are the occasional outlier cases.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Speaking of which, can Rolex even get away with calling their Sub hour hand "Mercedes"...? Which would be trademark infringement. As both the watch and cars are considered by many luxury items, shouldn't Mercedes be issuing a cease and desist or taking Rolex to court for using their logo on certain Rolex hour hands...?
> .


I don't believe Rolex has ever used that term. It's a nickname by watch enthusiasts


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'd hoped not to let the IP discussion happen at all, or if it did, I hoped it wouldn't get dragged off into the weeds, but here we are...

Guys, I've looked into this a fair bit, for what ought to be obvious reasons (duh, I produce homages).

I'm familiar enough with the IP laws in the USA to feel comfortable producing the watches we do, and as such, discussing how the IP laws impact what my business does. What follows below is my understanding, as it pertains to my business...

For _aesthetic design_ (how a watch looks), my understanding is that generally, the only protections which would apply would fall within one of two scenarios:

1. The look is very distinctive (i.e. unique), such that it becomes part of a brand's identity (its "trade dress"), and the public might be confused if another brand mimicked that design too closely.

I believe trade dress protection falls under the general umbrella of _trademark_ law (not patent, and none of this would fall under copyright law).

This is important, because trademarks are basically assumed to exist, without the brand necessarily needing to register them, which makes the AP vs. SWI case troubling, inasmuch as it would seem to open the door for any large brand to sue any small brand, by making a similar argument.

The implication there, if it isn't clear, is this - while I or any other brand owner can search for a registered trademark, or a patent, in order to avoid infringing on someone's IP, there is no such thing as searching for aesthetic designs which might be protected as trade dress. It's completely subjective by its nature, and unknowable unless and until a court renders a decision.

2. The design has a very distinctive innovation (i.e., some unique aspect or flourish not seen before, especially if it could be seen as a "new invention").

This protection would fall under _patent_ law, which is important, because a patent is much harder to get than trademark protection.

Since it's patent law, not trade dress - I'm not sure if the innovation necessarily needs to have some functional purpose to bolster its uniqueness, or if the distinctiveness would be seen as creating some degree of trade dress, but I vaguely recall that simply being the first to incorporate some new nuance into a design likely wouldn't be enough, and that there may need to be some reasoning behind the innovation, beyond simply "well, that's just how it looks."

For example - suppose Rolex were to prove that it was the first company to produce a design wherein all the numbers of the hour markers were oriented radially (i.e, with their bottoms towards center, rather than simply right-side-up), and that they've been using that motif consistently, for years, across multiple models.

While that orientation might have been unique / original to whatever model first used it (I'm guessing the Air King), that likely wouldn't be enough to be granted a design patent, because Rolex didn't invent numbers, nor did they invent radial orientation, and there are only so many ways a watch could incorporate numbers into a dial design, nor would it seem to have any functional reason unique to the Rolex design.

Likewise, it would be difficult for them to argue for trade dress protection, because another company simply orienting numbers that way wouldn't be enough to assume that the public would be confused, if the rest of the design wasn't too similar to Rolex's.

Trust me. I've paid over ten thousand dollars to my IP attorney over the last few years. Most of that was to protect our trademark worldwide, but within that context, I've had multiple opportunities to discuss the potential risks in producing watches which take some design inspiration from other brands' designs.

I am quite sure about the IP laws in the USA, as they relate to this topic, and my business. If we were doing something wrong (at least according to the most reasonable interpretation of the USA's IP laws), I'd know it.

As for the "Mercedes" hands. I don't think Rolex officially calls them that. I believe that's a colloquialism invented by watch collectors.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hopefully food for thought, on the homages vs IP discussion...

Forget the multitude of Chinese businesses operating out of China, where pursuing legal action against them is largely pointless.

Look at the many brands based in the USA, or the EU, or elsewhere in the industrialized, free world, producing watches which aren't simply "homages" in that they take _some_ design cues from other brands' designs, but are actually 1:1 design reproductions.

Not to pick on any brand in particular, but Crepas/Tactico, as an example, has produced numerous models which are 1:1 reproductions of Omega designs from the past. Omega is owned by Swatch, which clearly has the resources to sue another brand in the EU, and since they're suing Vortic here in the USA, they clearly care about protecting their IP.

Panerai seems to be going after a Chinese factory (which used their trademark, in addition to copying their designs, let's not forget). Why aren't they going after any number of brands which have produced virtual clones of their designs (yet without infringing on Panerai's marks)?

Logically, if there are so many brands producing "homages", ranging from 1:1 design reproductions to designs which borrow liberally or slightly from others, where are all the lawsuits?

Likewise, if aesthetic designs are so easy to patent, why don't more brands patent their designs?

Even outside the USA - just in the last few days, I've seen a designer posting to FB groups, complaining that some brand stole one of his designs (which he foolishly posted publicly) and produced it, but now refuse to compensate him for it. I believe both the designer and the brand are based in the EU, where many people seem to think the IP laws are more liberal than they are here in the US.

Okay, so...if the laws are that much more liberal regarding protection for aesthetic design, why doesn't he sue? Why don't any of these EU-based companies sue the other EU-based companies effectively doing the same thing?

Surely all these brands can't be completely ignorant of the protections people on these forums often claim exist, right? I mean, mine is just a small business, but surely the likes of Rolex and Swatch have the resources to stop all this nonsense, if they wanted to (and if the protections so many people here think exist actually did exist), no?

Call me crazy, but maybe those protections people think exist for watch designs mostly don't exist, but for a few rare exceptions.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I think Seiko is playing The Game:
Announce 6105 800x reissue; homage brands rush out copies at vintage spec.
Release LE SLA033 at slightly larger size; homage brands come out with v2 copies at LE size.
Release common release SPB15x at slightly smaller size; homage brands, "#[email protected]%!!!"


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

They might be, if Seiko had stuck to a sane pricing model. So far all of their watches in this line are approx. 2x the price they ought to have been...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

What's better than IP discussion in an NTH thread? Manufacturer pricing debate!


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> What's better than IP discussion in an NTH thread? Manufacturer pricing debate!


Male vs female SELs?


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Well if it comes to great discussion topics, the value / reliability of movements is always a good topic too. I just went through a bunch of zodiac super seawolf threads on f74, and it seems like by now the stp movements in zodiac watches are notorious for developing gremlins...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well if it comes to great discussion topics, the value / reliability of movements is always a good topic too. I just went through a bunch of zodiac super seawolf threads on f74, and it seems like by now the stp movements in zodiac watches are *notorious for developing gremlins*...


Developing gremlins? Or initial gremlins?

I had a v1 NTH Antilles which I bought used, with the STP movement, and no issues on my end. Same currently with a MWW Equinox. Wondering if I need to worry about the STP in the Equinox - if it will develop issues - or if it should be OK longer term, since it has been running fine for a while at this point.

Only movement I've personally had issues with was a Selitta SW200 in a Zelos, which developed a typical loss of winding/power reserve within a month of purchase and was immediately covered under warranty by Elshan.

Honestly, this is a big part of the reason I don't at all mind, and am willing to pay for, outstanding designs with Miyota 90xx or Seiko NH3x movements.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Developing gremlins? Or initial gremlins?
> 
> I had a v1 NTH Antilles which I bought used, with the STP movement, and no issues on my end. Same currently with a MWW Equinox. Wondering if I need to worry about the STP in the Equinox - if it will develop issues - or if it should be OK longer term, since it has been running fine for a while at this point.
> 
> ...


If you haven't had any troubles already, odds are you won't.

All the troubles we had with the STP's seemed to pop up within the first few months of ownership. It's very rare for us to get warranty support requests on them now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested...






EDIT/PS - I said in the video that there are a few more than 200 pieces of the NTH Subs worldwide. That was last Thursday. Today, it's more like 175, fewer than 7 pieces per version, on average.

Just sayin'...


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> For anyone interested...


Chris, the computer generated images of the upcoming watches are very...bright, for lack of a better term. Will the dials be so stark white and the lume so bright blue on the Swiftsure and Barracuda when those are released? When do you anticipate having photos of the production watches?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> Chris, the computer generated images of the upcoming watches are very...bright, for lack of a better term. Will the dials be so stark white and the lume so bright blue on the Swiftsure and Barracuda when those are released? When do you anticipate having photos of the production watches?


In general, our 3D renders are very accurate, as far as the appearance of colors go. Exceptions would mostly be due to the settings used within the program for light sources, reflectivity of surfaces, and stuff like that.

As an example:










Would anyone be "tricked' by the 3D render on the left? It may not be indistinguishable from the photo on the right, but certainly it's not deceptive in any way. If I had the time and energy, I'm sure I could find examples where real-world photos proved how accurate our 3D illustrations really are.

So, yes, those white dials will be very white, exactly as illustrated. They're not full lume, just matte white. White is white, very bright. How much more can I tell anyone about "white"?

We're not really making prototypes any more. The only reason I have protos of the updated Tropics is because we prototyped those dials, and jammed them into the old prototype cases. And I only had those dials made because there were a few things we were doing* which we haven't ever done before, and I wanted to make sure we got those details right.

And I'm pretty much done with studio photos for product shots. They always end up being a lot of money spent to get images that are actually worse than what we can do in 3D software, when it comes to how well they represent the final product.

As such, just as it's been for all the recent releases since the original DevilRay back in 2017/2018 - there will be no photos, at all, whatsoever, until we actually have the watches made, and people start posting their own pics online (which we hope to steal and put up on our website).

So...watch that video, which has the complete production timeline for everything in the pipeline. Whenever those watches are made, that's when you'll see photos.

*We wanted to see the texture on both the Antilles and the Azores, as we haven't tried making anything like "wood grain" before. And, whereas the original Azores had printed markers, which made adding the numbers to the lume patches very easy, the updated Azores has applied markers, which made adding the numbers quite a challenge to get right. But, as it is with most challenges, perseverance (and two rounds of prototyping) pays off.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> In general, our 3D renders are very accurate, as far as the appearance of colors go. Exceptions would mostly be due to the settings used within the program for light sources, reflectivity of surfaces, and stuff like that.
> 
> As an example:
> 
> ...


To be clear, I didn't mean to imply you were being deceptive. I was just curious how much the illustrations will match the real thing, because I figured there would be a noticeable difference. And the side-by-side images you provided basically confirmed it - the "real" Devil Ray there looks less bright. The colors are warmer, and you see the effect the crystal has on the dial. I'd be more inclined to buy one based on how that actual watch looks rather than the illustration, even though the illustration is more refined than the actual watch.

There's lots of shades of white, and dial texture influences it, as well. And as good as the illustrations are, Industrial Light and Magic isn't doing your illustrations. Real light in the real world will make the dials looks different.

I'll be honest with you. I'm really interested in that white dial Barracuda. But I would never buy a watch based solely off of a computer generated image. Now, does that mean I might miss out on a watch because posted customer photos/videos aren't available until after preorders are fulfilled and the remaining stock is sold? Yes, and I can live with that.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I work in a creative design field and it bugs me no end when I describe something to someone, show them a proof, let them know exactly how the paper and finish will affect the colors, and they still don't get it, still insist that they get a 100% representative proof of what will happen with finish material over ink on paper, on the day it is produced. And they are shocked - shocked! - when I tell them it will add 12% to the cost of the job in order to get ink draw-downs on actual paper, with actual finish... and still may not be 100% what they get with the finished product. 

At some point you have to use inferences and your own best judgment. I have no problem buying watches based on 3D renders, have never been disappointed, and in some cases, by the time you see actual photos, the watches are sold out. 

I am very interested in the Barracuda Polar, and when I see that render, I assume I'll be getting a very stark, arctic white. Even though it has orange accents, it has larger blue elements in the indexes, which to me will add up to a rather cooler white shade than a warmer one. Take a look at the Scorpene lume dial, which is very much more a cream color, and also compare to the indexes on the New Nazario and Nacken reissues -- there are photo examples of these watches out in the world, the white, although lume, is similar to the white render on the Barracuda dial, so I expect it will be a very pure white with few tones either warmer or cooler, with the dial accent colors lending it any off white, one way or the other. 

At some point, I have to trust a proof, one way or another. I've never been disappointed with the reality of an NTH watch vs. the render, so I trust that because I like the Polar in render, there's a really, really good chance I'll like it in the metal.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Q about the Barracuda Polar, @docvail ... Is the lume white, like a SL 16570/216570, when not charged and blue, as the render depicts, when charged? Or it is always blue as shown? Thanks and apologies if this has been asked and answered.


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Crap, I've always been saying and thinking Nacken with the "a" pronounced as in "apple."

I don't think I can start saying and thinking "Necken." We're way beyond that, now.


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## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> To be clear, I didn't mean to imply you were being deceptive. I was just curious how much the illustrations will match the real thing, because I figured there would be a noticeable difference. And the side-by-side images you provided basically confirmed it - the "real" Devil Ray there looks less bright. The colors are warmer, and you see the effect the crystal has on the dial. I'd be more inclined to buy one based on how that actual watch looks rather than the illustration, even though the illustration is more refined than the actual watch.
> 
> There's lots of shades of white, and dial texture influences it, as well. And as good as the illustrations are, Industrial Light and Magic isn't doing your illustrations. Real light in the real world will make the dials looks different.
> 
> I'll be honest with you. I'm really interested in that white dial Barracuda. But I would never buy a watch based solely off of a computer generated image. Now, does that mean I might miss out on a watch because posted customer photos/videos aren't available until after preorders are fulfilled and the remaining stock is sold? Yes, and I can live with that.


I didn't mean to suggest you'd implied we were being deliberately deceptive. This topic has come up before (ad nauseum). The generic objection to 3D renders seems to be that they're not a fair representation of reality, and by implication, that makes them deceptive in some way, even if the deception isn't deliberate.

Every time the topic comes up, I think I've been fairly consistent in my responses, which incorporate the following points:

A. Our renders are extremely accurate, as far as renders go, and are just as, if not more accurate than the professional photography we've had done (which still grinds my gears, given that the two photogs we've used for this purpose specialized in product photography, and had shot watches previously).

B. And if you don't want to buy based on 3D renders, cool, because I'm not asking anyone to put their faith in a render or plunk down money on a pre-order. There are no pre-orders. If you want to wait until the watches are made, and people are posting wrist-shots online, so you can see "real-world" pics, be my guest.

C. No one ever says the watch looked so much better in renders than it does in real life. Just the opposite. Everyone always says the watch looks so much better in real life than it does in the renders. To whatever extent the renders fail to do the finished product justice, that's better than the opposite alternative, since the result is people who are happy, rather than unhappy, about their purchase.

D. If the watch you want is sold out by the time you make up your mind, oh well, next time put more faith in our 3D renders, like the people who got theirs before we sold out. We make everything in small numbers. The people who act first tend to be rewarded for their decisiveness.

We're not doing photos. We do renders. That's how we do things, and how we do things works very well for us.



mconlonx said:


> I work in a creative design field and it bugs me no end when I describe something to someone, show them a proof, let them know exactly how the paper and finish will affect the colors, and they still don't get it, still insist that they get a 100% representative proof of what will happen with finish material over ink on paper, on the day it is produced. And they are shocked - shocked! - when I tell them it will add 12% to the cost of the job in order to get ink draw-downs on actual paper, with actual finish... and still may not be 100% what they get with the finished product.
> 
> At some point you have to use inferences and your own best judgment. I have no problem buying watches based on 3D renders, have never been disappointed, and in some cases, by the time you see actual photos, the watches are sold out.
> 
> ...


^All of this!


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> Male vs female SELs?


OH HELL NO!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Q about the Barracuda Polar, @docvail ... Is the lume white, like a SL 16570/216570, when not charged and blue, as the render depicts, when charged? Or it is always blue as shown? Thanks and apologies if this has been asked and answered.


See the color in the renders? That's what it looks like in the daylight, uncharged. It's exactly that shade of blue. The illustrations use the Pantone color Tritec has already developed for the lume, so, that's the same color we illustrated.

When it glows, it'll glow blue. I can't say how close its appearance will be to the blue glow of BG W9. It may be slightly darker, perhaps, or it may be much the same. We'll find out soon enough, when the white Swiftsure comes in.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Crap, I've always been saying and thinking Nacken with the "a" pronounced as in "apple."
> 
> I don't think I can start saying and thinking "Necken." We're way beyond that, now.


It's "neck-en", not "nack-en", or as Dan says it, "knock-en", which always hurts my ears to hear him.

I hear you knockin', Dan, but you can't come in...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just to (hopefully) put a cap on this renders vs photos thing...

We're not making prototypes any more. Full stop.

(And when we did, and we used them for photos, invariably, there would always be something changed for production, which made the photos inaccurate to some degree anyway.)

So, logically, when we're producing a new model, the only thing we can do is show you an illustration. A lot of brands stop at 2D renders. I'm paying Rusty to do 3D renders, so we can give you all a better representation of future reality.

What's my alternative here? It would seem to be NOT giving you any illustration at all. But what then? Am I supposed to describe to you, in words, what the watches will look like, in the future, once they're produced?

How is it better for me to tell you "the dial will be white", as opposed to showing you a white dial?

Once they're produced, I've already paid Rusty to create 3D renders, and more often than not, we've sold through 80%-90% of the watches we produced (to our retailers), and those retailers have sold 80%-90% of those to you all within the first 30 days of making them available for sale.

What would be the point of investing in professional photography at that time? It's not like I can just snap my fingers and get professional photos done in a day. That needs to be scheduled, and it takes the photog time to do the editing.

By that time, there are already tons of people posting real-world pics, plus blog reviews, and video reviews. What sort of idiot would I be to think, at that point, "Hey, you know what I should do now? Yeah, blow $5,000 on professional photos."

It doesn't make any sense to do photos when you're only making 25-50 pieces per version, but you're making a dozen versions in each release. The costs are just too high to be effectively amortized.

If you don't want to buy based on a render, don't. Good news - you don't have to. Wait until there are real-world pics, which should materialize soon after the watches are produced.

Until then, you can take my word on it (or not, whatever), when I say that our renders are extremely accurate.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Renders seem accurate enough, IMO.

Real world photos will vary with the light and camera used, but I've yet to hear anyone complain the watch doesn't look as good in real life...


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## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

@docvail in the US, you must distinguish between a design patent and an invention patents.

The design patent protects the appearance of a product, i.e. the aesthetic form.

The invention patent protects technical aspects.

Trademark ad copyright protection was already mentioned by you.

Come to think of it, the question of whether the classic watches that your watches are paying homage to were protected by any IP rights is irrelevant because even if they were, those rights would all have expired by now. The duration of a design patent is usually between 10 and 15 years (in the US, it is 10 years), and the watches that your watches are referencing to are way older


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## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

A quick search at the USPTO shows that watch brands do protect things like watch dials by way of design patents. Here's the design patent for the Tudor Pelagos dial:





__





USD722901S1 - Watch dial - Google Patents






patents.google.com


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

@docvail - the renders are great and Rusty does a masterful job. No argument from me and no need for a pre-production "in the metal" piece to make a decision. I am not, however, buying based on a text description. So...keep paying Aaron and Rusty. 

As for my earlier question re: lume, I'm good. Thanks!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> @docvail in the US, you must distinguish between a design patent and an invention patents.
> 
> The design patent protects the appearance of a product, i.e. the aesthetic form.
> 
> ...


I don't believe I must do anything.

I do believe I did distinguish between patents for inventions and patents for design. As I said, you can patent the design FOR a watch (how it works), but may not be able to patent the design OF a watch (how it looks). In either case, there must be some NEW INVENTION.

And as I said (more than once), I'm no lawyer, and I'll defer to any US-based IP lawyer on this topic, but my understanding has been that design patents (aesthetic design) are only granted when there's some novel (i.e, "new", or "innovative") aspect not seen before.

Here's a very brief summary, from the USPTO: "The patent law provides for the granting of design patents to any person *who has invented any new, original and ornamental design* for an article of manufacture. A design patent protects only the appearance of the article and not structural or utilitarian features."









Design Patent Application Guide


Design Patent Application Guide




www.uspto.gov





In short, there must be some NEW INVENTION within the design. You can't just apply for design patents every time you come up with an "original" design. There must be some NEW INVENTION within that design.

What the basis for the USPTO granting Tudor a patent on the Pelagos dial may have been, I can't say. And honestly, I don't really care. This discussion has become tedious, as IP discussions inevitably do, which is why I try to avoid them whenever I can.

What I can say is what I have said, which I'll repeat - GENERALLY, it's not possible to patent how a watch LOOKS, only how it WORKS, with a few rare exceptions, made when there's something very unique (i.e, a NEW INVENTION) about the ornamentation in the design, or, alternatively, if the design is so distinctive as to be integral to a brand's identity, trade dress may be argued, but that's not a part of patent law (I don't think), but rather would fall under trademark law.

And, as I said, if obtaining patent protection for aesthetic design was so easy - where are all the patents, and the lawsuits to protect them?


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## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

ChronoB said:


> To be clear, I didn't mean to imply you were being deceptive. I was just curious how much the illustrations will match the real thing, because I figured there would be a noticeable difference. And the side-by-side images you provided basically confirmed it - the "real" Devil Ray there looks less bright. The colors are warmer, and you see the effect the crystal has on the dial. I'd be more inclined to buy one based on how that actual watch looks rather than the illustration, even though the illustration is more refined than the actual watch.
> 
> There's lots of shades of white, and dial texture influences it, as well. And as good as the illustrations are, Industrial Light and Magic isn't doing your illustrations. Real light in the real world will make the dials looks different.
> 
> I'll be honest with you. I'm really interested in that white dial Barracuda. But I would never buy a watch based solely off of a computer generated image. Now, does that mean I might miss out on a watch because posted customer photos/videos aren't available until after preorders are fulfilled and the remaining stock is sold? Yes, and I can live with that.


You should probably factor the returns policy into your purchase decision. Pay the money based on a render, and if it doesn't look how you hoped it would in the metal, just return it (with watch wrapping intact and the bracelet untouched)...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fun fact about those blue DR photos above...

Every dial with a color-fade (as seen in the blue) is hand-painted (airbrushed). As such, each is a unique, one-of-a-kind dial.

Even if I had photos taken, inevitably, someone would point out that the photos on our site don't look like their watch in real life.

And, as is always the case, we've had at least two reports of someone who pointed out that the "white" DR really isn't "WHITE", it's somewhat silver (i.e, "whilver"), and that the black isn't really "BLACK", it's more of a very dark gray.

Since I tired of that argument long ago, all I can do now is explain that the white is only a hair darker than "WHITE", which is necessary for the sunburst texture of the dial to show (ditto for the black, which is just a hair lighter than "BLACK", in order for the texture to show), but if the customer is unhappy, they should not wear the watch, but rather immediately return it for a refund.

And, as is almost always the case, the response has been the same, "Oh, no, I love the watch. I want to keep it. I was just saying, it's not [exactly like the image on the website / truly "WHITE"/ truly "BLACK"]."

I don't think we've ever gotten a return because someone thought the watch looked better in the images on the website than it does in real life. I can literally - not figuratively - remember none.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ian_61 said:


> You should probably factor the returns policy into your purchase decision. Pay the money based on a render, and if it doesn't look how you hoped it would in the metal, just return it (with watch wrapping intact and the bracelet untouched)...


^This.

The average shipping rate for a watch shipped within the USA, purchased from our site, is under $15. If you wanted to return the watch to us, a small flat rate box, with tracking and insurance, is under $20.

Okay, all in, you're out $35, maybe, if that's how it goes.

If you were to purchase in a store - you're driving there, driving back, possibly paying for parking, and certainly the time you spend driving back and forth, jaw-jacking with the salesperson and standing in line at checkout is worth something, no? I can't imagine you're not spending at least $35 in gas/parking/tolls and your own time in that scenario.

$35 is a small price to pay for the convenience of shopping from home, especially these days.

We don't even require you to wear a mask!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I'm bored of discussions of IP law, and renders vs. in the metal.

So heres the TikCuda. In the metal. On Beads of Poop.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'm bored of discussions of IP law, and renders vs. in the metal.
> 
> So heres the TikCuda. In the metal. On Beads of Poop.
> View attachment 15361701


It looked better in the renders.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> It looked better in the renders.


Sounds like you need to talk to Rusty and encourage him to step up his 3D game.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DevilRay owners (v.1 and v.2) - We'll have v.2 bracelets for sale on the website soon, for $150. The v.2 bracelets will fit the v.1 case.

Also - we'll have additional v.2 links for sale on the website soon, $25 per pair.

Please check the website next week, or early next month. We're working as fast as we can.


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## rc999 (May 22, 2020)

Here's mine, just arrived yesterday. Gotta say I'm very happy with it. Watchgauge was great to deal with as well.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Sometimes forget how much I like this one.









Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Watch box just got a little nuttier. Digging this a LOT. Looks better than these photos.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

DevilRay









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> What I can say is what I have said, which I'll repeat - GENERALLY, it's not possible to patent how a watch LOOKS, only how it WORKS, with a few rare exceptions, made when there's something very unique (i.e, a NEW INVENTION) about the ornamentation in the design, or, alternatively, if the design is so distinctive as to be integral to a brand's identity, trade dress may be argued, but that's not a part of patent law (I don't think), but rather would fall under trademark law.


I Don't really want to take this further as it is becoming tedious indeed, but just one more clarification:

The requirement of novelty is absolutely correct. If you make a watch dial that hasn't been there before in that form/layout, you may seek design patent protection. However, that was never put to question.

I just wanted to clarify that your assumption that a design patent must be about HOW IT WORKS is not true as such. It's really just about the looks, nothing more, nothing less. Of course, it must be novel in some way.

And the Pelagos dial is just one example, it's not a special case in any way. If you search for "watch dial" on google patents, for example, numerous dials from all kinds of manufacturers come up. And design patents all have the same content: a short claim that decribes what is being protected, a description that describes what can be seen of the Figures, and thr main part, the Figures themselves, that show the design from various angles.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> I Don't really want to take this further as it is becoming tedious indeed, but just one more clarification:
> 
> The requirement of novelty is absolutely correct. If you make a watch dial that hasn't been there before in that form/layout, you may seek design patent protection. However, that was never put to question.
> 
> ...


Your original question was about the legality of HOMAGES (i.e, designs which mimic another). You asked me for my input:



karmadrome said:


> What has been bothering me for a while - what is the legal situation with homage watches (or obvious copies like Tiger Concept) / design cues taken from other brands?
> ...
> Maybe you have some insight here, Doc?


You got my input, and despite the fact that I'm not an IP attorney, I'm pretty sure what I said was largely correct - there's nothing illegal about homages, to the extent the design being homaged hasn't been patented (which seems difficult to do), and/or the homage isn't a 1:1 reproduction of a patented design.

My original response mistakenly omitted discussion of aesthetic design patents, but my second post clarified:



docvail said:


> For _aesthetic design_ (how a watch looks), my understanding is that generally, the only protections which would apply would fall within one of two scenarios...
> 
> 1. The look is very distinctive (i.e. unique), such that it becomes part of a brand's identity (its "trade dress"), and the public might be confused if another brand mimicked that design too closely.
> 
> ...


I tried (I think twice, if not three times), to distinguish between functional design patents, which are theoretically easier to get, and thus easier to defend, given the objective standard of what constitutes a new invention FOR a watch (how it works), as opposed to aesthetic design patents (as well as trade dress protections, since they'd also be a concern for homage producers), which are demonstrably harder to get, given the subjective standard involved, and the difficulty in proving some visual aspect of a watch would constitute a new invention OF design (how it looks), or some design so distinctive that it becomes part of a brand's identity.

This "why don't big brands sue homage producers" debate happens on WUS semi-frequently, with some folks always insisting that homages are inherently illegal, and that the original producers of the designs being homaged should just sue the homage producers, to put an end to the practice.

I'll say again - if homages are illegal, where are all the lawsuits? If it's easy to get a design patent, why don't more brands do so, and defend their patents with suits?

But, as always, it's entirely possible that I'm entirely wrong in my understanding of the matter, which is why I said I'd defer to any IP attorneys who wanted to weigh in. I'm happy to learn more about it, especially if it keeps me out of court.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> If you don't want to buy based on a render, don't. Good news - you don't have to. Wait until there are real-world pics, which should materialize soon after the watches are produced.
> 
> Until then, you can take my word on it (or not, whatever), when I say that our renders are extremely accurate.


Seeing real photos of a watch ahead of time (staged or candid) is just a personal preference of mine, and one that I might overlook based on the fact that you've clearly built a reputation for quality and customer service around here. Plus, the fact that you engage customers (and potential customers) here so often is a testament to your transparency regarding the watches you sell. I don't want you to think I was criticizing how you do things or telling you how to sell your watches, whether I might would do it differently or not.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

At various times, I've tried to get a lawyer advising me to give me a definitive answer about something very specific, like, "Suppose [____], is that going to be a problem?"

It seems like every time I try to nail a lawyer down in that way, the answer is always the same, "The law says [____], but it depends on how a judge would see it," or "You might win in court, but it would be an expensive fight, which you'd be better off avoiding; you can't count on a judge dismissing the case right away," or something equally noncommittal.

I recently had to defend my own IP, in a situation which would seem as clear-cut as any situation could be. My attorney was 100% certain of what the law said, and thus what the outcome SHOULD be. But, of course, things don't always play out the way they should, despite the fact that the law may seem unambiguous.

I've come to realize that there's a wide gap between what the law would seem to say and what can play out in reality.

Thus, "are homages illegal" would seem to be a question that can't be answered definitively here, but only in court, so it seems we'll have to wait and see...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> Seeing real photos of a watch ahead of time (staged or candid) is just a personal preference of mine, and one that I might overlook based on the fact that you've clearly built a reputation for quality and customer service around here. Plus, the fact that you engage customers (and potential customers) here so often is a testament to your transparency regarding the watches you sell. I don't want you to think I was criticizing how you do things or telling you how to sell your watches, whether I might would do it differently or not.


I didn't take it as criticism. I took it as a question about why we don't provide photos instead of renders, or when we might.

Like I said, the topic has been raised before. I think many people who bring it up have gotten stuck mentally comparing my business to other micros, or even to how we used to do things.

Many micros will get prototypes made, and post pics of them. Most micros who do that are using those photos to promote pre-orders. That's what I used to do. And with pre-orders, it makes sense that people might prefer to see photos first.

Since we're no longer doing pre-orders, I don't feel any obligation to provide those photos. And since we're not getting protos made, we literally can't show photos before the watches are produced.

By that time, because most of the watches are sold already or quickly, and because of the large variety / low production numbers, and because of how realistic our renders are, paying for photography just doesn't make sense.


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

Another wild Friday night on the sofa..... watching Gangs of London which I recommend FWIW









Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here speak Korean?






If not, click the gear icon in the lower right corner, go up to "Subtitles", click "auto-translate", then select whatever language you speak.










The English translation isn't very good, but at times it's kinda funny.

I may be wrong, but I think this guy has the largest audience among Korean-speaking watch-reviewers on YouTube. His Scorpène review from a year ago got almost 45k views. This one's already got 25k, and it's only been up for 2 months.

PS - If you want to auto-translate the comments, and you're using Google Chrome, right-click lower on the page, and look for "translate to English":


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## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

In case anyone was wondering, the thumbnail says:
"Have you ever seen a real gilt dial before?" 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Rainy Florida evening...
















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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep six original version today...look forward to getting new style bracelet









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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

bolts40 said:


> Rainy Florida evening...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Using my supplied NTH torch...









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Sunday is a good day for reflection...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Anxiously awaiting September and beyond to add two new NTHs to the stable. The big brother, Swiftsure white, and the polar opposite, DLC Vino Rosso.

Btw, Doc, you gotta talk to John K. man... first he was calling the Sauro the Suaro a while back. Now he's got the Rosso is listed as the Rossa. And on a side note, he's got the no dates listed as 9039s, when you've got them listed as the 90S5. I know they're _essentially_ the same thing, but ya know. Edit: After further looking, it's not all of the listings on WG.

By the way, what is the true difference between the two? Is it just the handstack? I've seen multiple different answers.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

RotorRonin said:


> Sunday is a good day for reflection...


Very cool unique photo.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## iknowpeanuts (Feb 13, 2020)

docvail said:


> The original bracelet came about after some discussion between me, Aaron an Rusty, starting with my idea that I wanted something somewhat original, but also vaguely similar to some existing bracelets which had simpler designs, yet with more angularity in the shape of the links.
> 
> We were looking at bracelets on some Panerai, and the Certina DS-3 in particular, which was one of the main (yet widely overlooked) inspirations for the DevilRay. Everyone tends to see the DR as a Doxa homage, and I think the bracelet contributes to that, given it's visual similarity to some Doxa bracelets.
> 
> ...


I actually liked the OG bracelet as it was pretty unique and i appreciated all the work that went into designing it. After seeing v2 i was glad that i picked up v1 when i did - dont get me wrong, v2 is cool as well but i just thought the aggressive look of v1 was more in keeping with the case design. no issues about the comparison to doxa; in fact i would love to be able to fit a BoR on the devilray from time to time...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15365575
> 
> Anxiously awaiting September and beyond to add two new NTHs to the stable. The big brother, Swiftsure white, and the polar opposite, DLC Vino Rosso.
> 
> ...


I pronounced "Sauro" correctly for him at least a dozen times. He kept pronouncing it the other way, and I gave up.

The "Rossa" is likely a type-o.

9039 = No date. Shorter hands height than the 9015. We use this one when a model is no-date only.

90S5 = No date. Open heart. Same hands height as the 9015. We use this when a model has a date/no-date option.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I pronounced "Sauro" correctly for him at least a dozen times. He kept pronouncing it the other way, and I gave up.
> 
> The "Rossa" is likely a type-o.
> 
> ...


Savvy.
Gracias.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

The lume!










Also, Doc, I realize I'm wrong, but this will always be a "knack-in."

I'm not calling it the same thing my wife's grandpa called making out in the back seat.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Wore this one, yesterday.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

iknowpeanuts said:


> I actually liked the OG bracelet as it was pretty unique and i appreciated all the work that went into designing it. After seeing v2 i was glad that i picked up v1 when i did - dont get me wrong, v2 is cool as well but i just thought the aggressive look of v1 was more in keeping with the case design. no issues about the comparison to doxa; in fact i would love to be able to fit a BoR on the devilray from time to time...
> 
> View attachment 15365969


I like the v.1 bracelet, too. Alhough I've found that the only way to get a good fit on mine is to use the expansion clasp. I think I'll like the v.2 bracelet as much, if not more.

I've been surprised to see how many aftermarket or other watches' bracelets fit the subs or other cases we've made. I wouldn't bet that other bracelets would fit the DevilRay, but it's certainly possible, and I'd be interested to see if there are any matches.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wearing this today, Azores v.2 prototype in Jamaica...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Consolation prize for cancelled Nashville trip? If so, seems like that worked out well. Watch looks sharp. 


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

When a few minor modifications make a great watch even better..........



















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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Consolation prize for cancelled Nashville trip? If so, seems like that worked out well. Watch looks sharp.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We booked both trips around the same time. The Nashville trip will have to happen when things open up some more. This one just got pushed back two weeks.

It's weird. On the one hand, it's nice to be at a resort that isn't teeming with people, but on the other, there's almost nothing open, so there's very little to do here.

We went to a couple little shopping villages today. In one, half the stores were closed. In the other, all but two stores were closed.

It's hard not to feel bad for Jamaicans. Tourism is their biggest industry, and the whole place is a ghost town. Our cab driver wasn't about to leave us at either of the villages. Not only did he hang around for the return trip, he took us on a tour of some of the residential areas on the hillside, pointing out all the local fruit trees and other points of interest. Yes, he got a nice tip.

Wife and I got massages this afternoon before dinner. We're doing an all-day excursion tomorrow. Horseback ride & swim (horses in the ocean), then catamaran party-cruise and power-snorkeling.

Wednesday night we're going to the luminous lagoon - something about the minerals in the streams mixing with the ocean water, making it glow.

I'd like to talk my family into doing Dunn's River Falls and/or Rick's Cafe (cliff-diving), but either is a 90 minute drive, one-way, and they're just not into that drive.

We might do a tour of the Rose Hall Great House (an old plantation, reputedly haunted), check out the Martha Brae rafting village, or go into downtown Montego Bay, just to check it out.

Or we might just sit on the beach and drink pina coladas all day. It is a vacation, and we're supposed to be relaxing, after all...


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Ricks is in NO WAY worth the trip unless you're already in the Negril area


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Doc,

You have to work harder at relaxing man. Digging the V.2 Azores.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...apparently horses don't care whether they're on land or in the sea, they $hlt where they like, when they like, judging by the horse in front of mine, being ridden by my son.

TOUR GUIDE: "Watch out for the $hlt!"

ME: "Oh, yeah, thanks. We'll just swim around it..."


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> So...apparently horses don't care whether they're on land or in the sea, they $hlt where they like, when they like, judging by the horse in front of mine, being ridden by my son.
> 
> TOUR GUIDE: "Watch out for the $hlt!"
> 
> ME: "Oh, yeah, thanks. We'll just swim around it..."


Hmmm... Sea Pucky..

A new microbrand(marketed from the prairies) is born...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> So...apparently horses don't care whether they're on land or in the sea, they $hlt where they like, when they like, judging by the horse in front of mine, being ridden by my son.
> 
> TOUR GUIDE: "Watch out for the $hlt!"
> 
> ME: "Oh, yeah, thanks. We'll just swim around it..."












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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jamaican sunset. Back to the grind next week, folks...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

odin and azores proto. nice blue lineup for tropical traveling. enjoy jamaica. i know what you mean about eerie surrounds...i was there (montego/negril) a couple of weeks after 9/11...not a lot of folks around. but i appreciated the experience.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Enjoyed the ceremonial sizing of bracelet, locking of threads. Handy to have a template to follow for a perfect fit on the first try.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Many pages, and maybe a couple threads ago, there were pictures of a Tikuna on a wavy rubber strap. Ever since, I've planned to get a Citizen strap I'd enjoyed on a former watch if I ever got a Tikuna. I was bummed to discover I can't get the spring bars to seat. It seems the straight end of the strap contacts the curve of the case preventing things from lining up.

Before I go at the strap with a Dremel, is anyone aware of any similar looking straps that fit on a Sub? N.D. Limits printed on strap not required.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

3WR said:


> Many pages, and maybe a couple threads ago, there were pictures of a Tikuna on a wavy rubber strap. Ever since, I've planned to get a Citizen strap I'd enjoyed on a former watch if I ever got a Tikuna. I was bummed to discover I can't get the spring bars to seat. It seems the straight end of the strap contacts the curve of the case preventing things from lining up.
> 
> Before I go at the strap with a Dremel, is anyone aware of any similar looking straps that fit on a Sub? N.D. Limits printed on strap not required.
> 
> ...


Watchgecko has a few wave vent straps - the softer natural rubber one may squeeze in better on a sub.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Seeing as how NTH was pioneering the use of nontraditional bezel insert materials, here's a possible idea to toss in the air: bezel inserts made from granpa plastic (aka tortoiseshell imitation)... Showed up on new Tag divers, looks pretty nifty.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Seeing as how NTH was pioneering the use of nontraditional bezel insert materials, here's a possible idea to toss in the air: bezel inserts made from granpa plastic (aka tortoiseshell imitation)... Showed up on new Tag divers, looks pretty nifty.


Is that reflections or actually in the material? If the latter then thanks but no thanks.....


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Many pages, and maybe a couple threads ago, there were pictures of a Tikuna on a wavy rubber strap. Ever since, I've planned to get a Citizen strap I'd enjoyed on a former watch if I ever got a Tikuna. I was bummed to discover I can't get the spring bars to seat. It seems the straight end of the strap contacts the curve of the case preventing things from lining up.
> 
> Before I go at the strap with a Dremel, is anyone aware of any similar looking straps that fit on a Sub? N.D. Limits printed on strap not required.


Watchpartsplaza carries most OEM Seiko rubber straps.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> Is that reflections or actually in the material? If the latter then thanks but no thanks.....


No, that's how it looks. Not for me I don't think.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Oris' Tungsten bezel insert on the other hand is quite cool, as you get something that looks sort of like high polish stainless steel, except with _vastly _higher scratch resistance. You most likely can't scratch that bezel insert. Of course, there's another edge to that sword, which is that a stainless steel insert wouldn't crack. I don't know how Tungsten compares to ceramic bezel inserts in terms of fragility, but it would certainly seem possible to crack one under the right circumstances.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> No, that's how it looks. Not for me I don't think.


That's just so hideous......

.....I bet Dame Edna would like it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Many pages, and maybe a couple threads ago, there were pictures of a Tikuna on a wavy rubber strap. Ever since, I've planned to get a Citizen strap I'd enjoyed on a former watch if I ever got a Tikuna. I was bummed to discover I can't get the spring bars to seat. It seems the straight end of the strap contacts the curve of the case preventing things from lining up.
> 
> Before I go at the strap with a Dremel, is anyone aware of any similar looking straps that fit on a Sub? N.D. Limits printed on strap not required.
> 
> ...


Peteagus beat me to it. Check out Watchgecko.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Guessing that will be a "no" from doc regarding the tortoise shell acrylic bezel inserts. Just a guess...

I like the material, but it would probably make for a more interesting dial treatment than bezel insert.

I believe tungsten is incredibly tough, very not prone to cracking. Less prone to cracking, compared to ceramic, less prone to scratches than stainless steel. But not as scratch free as ceramic. And much harder to machine than steel. Expect "wotwot +$100 to cost of watch wotwotwot you and 49 friends willing to prepay and wait a year wotwot."


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Rado used to make watches with tungsten cases. From what I have seen, it does show a little wear, especially around the sharp edges, but minimally so.

A quick google search doesn't yield any examples of cracked tungsten cases, but plenty examples of cracked ceramic cases. So at least anecdotal evidence suggests that tungsten is not quite as brittle as ceramic.

Tungsten is however rather heavy, which is probably why Rado made the switch to ceramic. But for bezel inserts weight wouldn't be an issue, so I guess it technically could be a suitable material.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> That's just so hideous......
> 
> .....I bet Dame Edna would like it.
> 
> View attachment 15370049


I think it looks really cool, but not something I could wear or pull off.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Henry Krinkle (Mar 6, 2011)

Rado still makes tungsten cases. They never stopped. They also now make carbon diffused steel and hardened titanium cases and even made an industrial diamond case once upon a time. Tungsten can also be cracked or chipped, though it is much harder to do than it is with some ceramics.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Many pages, and maybe a couple threads ago, there were pictures of a Tikuna on a wavy rubber strap. Ever since, I've planned to get a Citizen strap I'd enjoyed on a former watch if I ever got a Tikuna. I was bummed to discover I can't get the spring bars to seat. It seems the straight end of the strap contacts the curve of the case preventing things from lining up.
> 
> Before I go at the strap with a Dremel, is anyone aware of any similar looking straps that fit on a Sub? N.D. Limits printed on strap not required.
> 
> ...


The new silicone straps from Seiko feel way better than you'd expect when you hear "silicone". I picked one up from Marc at Island Watch 2 years ago, I think.

I was wearing SBDC on one, on the flight down to Jamaica, just because I wanted to spend some time with a different case on my wrist. Those straps are really amazing. I think I like them better than any of the rubber straps I've ever had, including natural rubber.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Seeing as how NTH was pioneering the use of nontraditional bezel insert materials, here's a possible idea to toss in the air: bezel inserts made from granpa plastic (aka tortoiseshell imitation)... Showed up on new Tag divers, looks pretty nifty.


I'd like to see one in person, first, and understand more about their construction, the durability of the material, etc.

The numbers look to be metal inlays, not lumed engravings, somewhat like a yachtmaster bezel, yes?

The ability to get a bezel insert with a specific color we choose would make life easier, but I don't value that benefit enough to outweigh the durability of steel. If I could go back in time, I wish I knew steel was an option when I made the Orthos.

---

On a not-very-related note...

As I think I said, we went shopping the other day, and in one of the centers, only two stores seemed to be open, one of which was a jewelers / multi-brand watch AD. The guy who owns it turned out to own the whole center, which helped explain why he was there, and open, when we were literally (not figuratively) the only people on the property that day.

It wasn't exactly on my agenda to find an AD here, but it's always in the back of my mind, so when I mentioned NTH, we got into a watch discussion.

First off - he claimed he'd heard of NTH. I'm still skeptical he wasn't shining me on, hoping we'd buy something inside (we did - my anniversary is coming up). I laughed and insisted he hadn't heard of the brand, but he insisted he did, and that he wasn't BS'in me. I still don't know. For all I know, he was thinking of MVMT (that's happened to me at least twice already).

Almost immediately, he launched into a condemnation of how online selling has impacted the business he does with luxury brands. For the most part, he doesn't want to carry any of them any more, for reasons everyone here has likely already guessed - every day, someone is selling a new Omega, Tag, or Breitling at 20%-30% off, somewhere, and it's just a quick internet search away for someone standing in his store.

He said he could get an Omega for a customer, from any number of other stores, have it delivered to his customers' home, and still make 20% on the sale, just for making a phone call. So what's the point of buying the inventory?

He now focuses mostly on Citizen, Bulova, and other brands selling for well under $1000, because there isn't as much discounting of them at those lower prices, and people are less likely to haggle over a $300-$500 watch than a $3,000-$5,000 watch. When the cruise ships are sailing, he'll move 300-500 of them per month.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I'd like to see one in person, first, and understand more about their construction, the durability of the material, etc.
> 
> The numbers look to be metal inlays, not lumed engravings, somewhat like a yachtmaster bezel, yes?
> 
> The ability to get a bezel insert with a specific color we choose would make life easier, but I don't value that benefit enough to outweigh the durability of steel.


I don't know if those are metal inlays.. It could be a shallow milled channel with piped in lume (or paint, or ....), then polished off to make it level with the plastic. The top of that bezel seems to have no ridges or elevations.

Either way... at a guess, it would still be less shatter-able than ceramic / sapphire.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I don't know if those are metal inlays.. It could be a shallow milled channel with piped in lume (or paint, or ....), then polished off to make it level with the plastic. The top of that bezel seems to have no ridges or elevations.
> 
> Either way... at a guess, it would still be less shatter-able than ceramic / sapphire.


Depending on what the material is, though, it may be more scratch-able than steel, and if it starts out in liquid form, then replacement would mean replacing the whole bezel assembly, not just the insert.

That's been my hesitation to do an enamel "bakelite" bezel. I've gotten samples from my OEM, and while I think they're very cool, they have some limitations, in that I don't think they can be sloped the way our steel bezels are, and they can be scratched (though I'm told that scratches can be polished out, like with acrylic crystals).


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Also aging could be an issue. Some tortoiseshell / plastic glasses can get pretty icky after a year or two, with the plastic(?) material starting to basically deteriorate.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

> 2 years and ~80% wrist time. Perhaps because the rest of my collection is ~50-ish years old and the Näcken is just "the" EDC watch... for me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As for tungsten...

It's heavy, much heavier than steel, and requires its own tooling, which is more expensive to produce than the tooling needed for steel.

And while it is much harder to scratch, it's also more brittle (hardness = brittleness), meaning it could be shattered, in theory, given enough force.

And, just as I do when we argue over ceramic, I'm providing a link to a google image search for "shattered tungsten", just to preempt anyone calling BS on me - shattered tungsten - Google Search.

Somewhere in my jumbled memory banks, I think there's also a nugget about not being able to brush tungsten, only polish it, but that may be something I imagined reading or hearing, not a real memory. I hate the idea of a polished bezel, even one that's supposedly impervious to scratches, especially if there's a chance that a hard enough impact could cause it to shatter.

We've been down this road before. The scratch-ability of steel is a by-product of its ductility, i.e, its ability to withstand abuse without breaking. I think the trade-off is a good one, as I think it's easier for anyone to live with a bezel that has a tiny scratch or dent than it is for anyone to live with one that's been chipped, or worse, shattered.

Prior to putting bezel inserts up for sale on demand, I did my level best to keep a record of people requesting inserts to replace damaged ones, and we always asked for photos showing the damage. Generally, people always volunteered information about how the damage occurred, and if not, we'd typically ask.

We didn't have too many people reporting serious damage. Most of the damage we saw was very minimal, in most cases something most people could easily live with, and yet was caused by fairly extreme abuse - things like falling out of a car onto the pavement. My Scorpene has flown off my wrist at least three times (yes, I was once that lazy about using thread locker). One of those times it went skidding across a patio of paver stones, yet it still looks brand new.

Just as it is with the Swiss brands spending a lot of money to convince people that "Swiss" = "Better", my observation is that a lot of effort has been put into making people think "Ceramic" / "Tungsten" / "Sapphire" / "904 Steel" / "Tegimented Submarine Steel" / "Ice-hardened high carbon steel" is better than "pedestrian" 316L stainless.

But, in my opinion, and based on all the objective data and information I can find, none of those materials offers up any significant benefit without also having some significant drawback, and thus just seems like a way for brands to charge customers more for something that sounds more "impressive" to people who never bother to think about it, much less actually do any research into it.

But, if "ceramic" or "sapphire" or any of the others was a better material than 316L stainless, all things considered, why don't the brands make the entire case and bracelet out of those materials, or if they do, why then would there be any value in adding surface-hardening measures? Why do we see pics of shattered ceramic or sapphire parts (including cases), but never see those pics of steel parts/cases?

If 316L is "surgical grade", meaning, good enough to be the material of choice for instruments used in life-and-death scenarios, it certainly seems to me that it's worth considering its merits for use in watch cases and other parts.

PS - to anyone thinking, "but what about titanium?" I just remembered this little gem, courtesy of horological_dicktionary on IG:










You guys know what would be awesome? If there was a readily-available, inexpensive material, which was more or less perfect for making watch cases and other parts, something that resisted corrosion, wasn't too brittle or too soft, and didn't require any special processes to make it more usable for that application.

Oh, wait, that's 316L stainless steel.

And y'all just don't appreciate how awesome it is.

[sigh]


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Looking at the insert I'm wondering if it's a laminate material w/ a scratch resistant face (sapphire) over a plastic (polycarbonate?) inner layer w/ the 'swirlies'.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Finally got this guy back.
I like the bracelet but I liked the V1 too.
Definitely like the clasp so much better.
Interestingly I have the same number of links and exact same micro adjust hole on the clasp as I do on the subs.










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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just went to the Tag site, to see if I could figure out what those bezels are all about, but saw this pearl of completely unwarranted marketing hyperbole, vomited in my mouth, then ran screaming from the site...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The internet is so bad here, it's forced my first double-post since the forum software switch.

And you know how I roll.

Double post.

Random pic.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Better pic of the dray.
I actually like the V2 bracelet better, makes the watch lighter. I don't remember it being this light on the v1 bracelet.










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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I just went to the Tag site, to see if I could figure out what those bezels are all about, but saw this pearl of completely unwarranted marketing hyperbole, vomited in my mouth, then ran screaming from the site...
> 
> View attachment 15371249


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Oris has done brushed Tungsten before, so it's definitely doable.


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## Pogo247 (May 11, 2020)

What's the consensus on leather straps on divers? I'm not really a bracelet guy (and waiting for a watchgecko tropic to arrive) so thought I'd throw it on a taupe epsom leather strap and feel like it kinda works with the Barracuda









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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Pogo247 said:


> What's the consensus on leather straps on divers? I'm not really a bracelet guy (and waiting for a watchgecko tropic to arrive) so thought I'd throw it on a taupe epsom leather strap and feel like it kinda works with the Barracuda
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think anything goes and I think most people around here feel that way. A lot look good in photos I prefer bracelet, MN, rubber or nato but I do from time to time go leather.

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Pogo247 said:


> What's the consensus on leather straps on divers? I'm not really a bracelet guy (and waiting for a watchgecko tropic to arrive) so thought I'd throw it on a taupe epsom leather strap and feel like it kinda works with the Barracuda
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Acceptable. Hell, I've got a diver with OEM Italian leather.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Diver + leather = good.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pogo247 said:


> What's the consensus on leather straps on divers? I'm not really a bracelet guy (and waiting for a watchgecko tropic to arrive) so thought I'd throw it on a taupe epsom leather strap and feel like it kinda works with the Barracuda
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cows are water proof.

Leather comes from cows.

I don't see a problem here.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Cows are water proof.
> 
> Leather comes from cows.
> 
> ...


Don't forget seacows. Literally waterproof.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Pogo247 said:


> What's the consensus on leather straps on divers? I'm not really a bracelet guy (and waiting for a watchgecko tropic to arrive) so thought I'd throw it on a taupe epsom leather strap and feel like it kinda works with the Barracuda
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's how I wear mine outside of summer. My D65 has the same WR and screw-down crown as a Rolex OP. If you consider them to both be "sport watches," leather should be suitable for both.

I also think it depends on the diver. Slim divers like the NTH Sub or D65, no problem. The more toolish and larger the design is though, the less leather tends to work. Azores or Antilles? Sure. DevilRay? Ehhh, I don't know about that. Same with other chunky tool divers like the Pelagos or a Sinn U1.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I just went to the Tag site, to see if I could figure out what those bezels are all about, but saw this pearl of completely unwarranted marketing hyperbole, vomited in my mouth, then ran screaming from the site...
> 
> View attachment 15371249


Yah, gotta have that deep deep luxury prestige. Or, "_*Tag Heuer. How deep is your prestige, big guy?*_"


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Pogo247 said:


> What's the consensus on leather straps on divers? I'm not really a bracelet guy (and waiting for a watchgecko tropic to arrive) so thought I'd throw it on a taupe epsom leather strap and feel like it kinda works with the Barracuda
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As long as they are switched out when actually swimming/diving, it's all good. The psringbar holes in the lugs are there for a reason, after all


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Cows are water proof.
> 
> Leather comes from cows.
> 
> ...


Every cow that has been exposed to water has died or is in the process of becoming dead.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> That's how I wear mine outside of summer. My D65 has the same WR and screw-down crown as a Rolex OP. If you consider them to both be "sport watches," leather should be suitable for both.
> 
> I also think it depends on the diver. Slim divers like the NTH Sub or D65, no problem. The more toolish and larger the design is though, the less leather tends to work. Azores or Antilles? Sure. DevilRay? Ehhh, I don't know about that. Same with other chunky tool divers like the Pelagos or a Sinn U1.


Great capture of the devil Ray. Very nice shot.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Every cow that has been exposed to water has died or is in the process of becoming dead.


Exactly the same outcomes you see when cows are exposed to Dihydrogen Monoxide.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Clear proof that cows are invasive alien species completely unsuited for terrestrial conditions.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> Clear proof that cows are invasive alien species completely unsuited for terrestrial conditions.


But they taste good when the correct amount of heat is applied.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Odin









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

This was still a pig as late as Monday...










Startes the day with a dressy watch, but when 1/3s needed to be cut down to 1/5s and the smoker fired up, out came the utility NTH with handy timing bezel...


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Odin
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gorgeous watch in appropriate environment. Who needs a vintage Seamaster 300 when you can have this? Enjoy the beach Doc.

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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Odin
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful, had no idea you could cross the border and come back. Are you staying at a resort?

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Beautiful, had no idea you could cross the border and come back. Are you staying at a resort?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Come back?

Who said anything about coming back?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Come back?
> 
> Who said anything about coming back?


You can't return until that case of crabs goes away.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Come back?
> 
> Who said anything about coming back?












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Come back?
> 
> Who said anything about coming back?


You ran into Bill Jones down there? Dude's still got it-he nailed that shot.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Bright red. For when you feel like grabbing attention.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Sorry for the crappy picture but cool lume otherwise.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Vacay watch:










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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> You can't return until that case of crabs goes away.


Damn crabs.

Sometimes with a piece of bread, you can confuse the crab into thinking you have a yeast infection. No crab wants to deal with yeast. Gets in the way of bread raising.

Ya feelin Irie mahn?






































Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Ya feelin Irie mahn?


I was until we got on a flight to come home yesterday morning.

Jamaica is an awesome place, and that was a much needed vacation. I'm already thinking about going back.

If anyone is thinking about going, now is a great time. Our flights were half empty, and the resort where we stayed was a veritable ghost-town. There might have been 100 people staying there, maybe less.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Y'all are going to get sick of my mediocre photos of this watch, but I'm lovin' it!

Put it on the v2 bracelet today and it's... amazing.

The V1 bracelet is great, but it's got nothing on the V2. I can't remember who else did this and am too lazy to scroll, but I put the V1 clasp on and it's the best of both worlds! No need for six micro-adjustments when you have smaller links to begin with AND half-links as well.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> Y'all are going to get sick of my mediocre photos of this watch, but I'm lovin' it!
> 
> Put it on the v2 bracelet today and it's... amazing.
> 
> The V1 bracelet is great, but it's got nothing on the V2. I can't remember who else did this and am too lazy to scroll, but I put the V1 clasp on and it's the best of both worlds! No need for six micro-adjustments when you have smaller links to begin with AND half-links as well.


Not a bad pic at all. 
I see your Molle bag and that pretty damn cool morale patch, and raise you.


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## ryguy87 (Jan 6, 2016)

Is the waitlist for Polar Barracuda (both date and non-date) via Watch Gauge full? It seems to be full.

Regardless, glad I secured my spot earlier for one.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Thanks for the rubber strap suggestions. For now, I have the Citizen strap sorted out. Fits and moves freely and doesn't look too terribly hacked up.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

3WR said:


> Thanks for the rubber strap suggestions. For now, I have the Citizen strap sorted out. Fits and moves freely and doesn't look too terribly hacked up.
> 
> View attachment 15377372


Is the movement because the strap normally uses fat bars? If so cut some plastic q tips and put the normal sized bars inside. Then use the strap. Can't remember who I got that from on here but props to whomever it was. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryguy87 said:


> Is the waitlist for Polar Barracuda (both date and non-date) via Watch Gauge full? It seems to be full.
> 
> Regardless, glad I secured my spot earlier for one.


How can a wait list be full?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> How can a wait list be full?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Because _every_ new model on the waitlist says "Out of stock". Duh.

By the way, is it September yet?
One more month you say?
Damn it. I want my White Swiftsure. I've got two straps I wanna try it on. My orange Zuludiver and the Haveston single pass I've got showing up tommorow that's got the old Naval Dazzle camo pattern. I think that one sounds quite fitting. I

I'm not sure if you've given a definitive time frame, but I'll ask anyway. Should we expect late Sept. for the 2K1s?

Edit: Here's the Dazzle camo on a Muhle.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mplsabdullah said:


> Is the movement because the strap normally uses fat bars? If so cut some plastic q tips and put the normal sized bars inside. Then use the strap. Can't remember who I got that from on here but props to whomever it was.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


That wasn't the challenge I had. But clever tip. Will have to remember that. Thanks.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Had to take anti-corruption training. (Everyone does. Have no fear of me in sales postings!) Things that could be considered a bride... (edit: bribe)

$400 lunch
$500 sporting event tickets
$6000 watch

That escalated quickly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Had to take anti-corruption training. (Everyone does. Have no fear of me in sales postings!) Things that could be considered a bride...
> 
> $400 lunch
> $500 sporting event tickets
> ...


What is it you do that requires anti-corruption training?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Had to take anti-corruption training. (Everyone does. Have no fear of me in sales postings!) Things that could be considered a bride...
> 
> $400 lunch
> $500 sporting event tickets
> ...


I've had a bride for 25 years.

I could have saved a ton of money and aggravation just getting the $6k watch.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> What is it you do that requires anti-corruption training?


Professional spell checker.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Professional spell checker.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Bride is a correctly spelled word. Maybe not the correct word. But the spelling is spot on, thank you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> What is it you do that requires anti-corruption training?


Arms dealer...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Arms dealer...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like Jonah Hill in War Dogs?


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Like Jonah Hill in War Dogs?
> View attachment 15379461


Actually, yes, exactly! Or the other guy. I don't know which is better. I watched the first few minutes of that a couple days ago. Which is what brought that profession to mind.

Also considered a career in industrial smoothing. "We don't care, and it shows."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

3WR said:


> Had to take anti-corruption training. (Everyone does. Have no fear of me in sales postings!) Things that could be considered a bride... (edit: bribe)
> 
> $400 lunch
> $500 sporting event tickets
> ...


So..... a $500 watch would be OK ?


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

-2seconds per day after 5 days.
For all the movement snobs out there, nh35 is excellent when regulated.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> So..... a $500 watch would be OK ?


Apparently, a $5999 watch would be OK. But, $6000 is over the line.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

caktaylor said:


> Apparently, a $5999 watch would be OK. But, $6000 is over the line.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So a Hodinkee clock would go under the radar


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

househalfman said:


> So a Hodinkee clock would go under the radar


It's not a watch per se (it's a desk clock), so it's fine regardless of the price!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's not a watch per se (it's a desk clock), so it's fine regardless of the price!


Loopholes, people. Loopholes!


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Bump 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## ryguy87 (Jan 6, 2016)

Is it weird if I am super excited about the polar barracuda sub and its new sharp end links?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryguy87 said:


> Is it weird if I am super excited about the polar barracuda sub and its new sharp end links?


It would only be weird if you weren't.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Looks like you've hit a homerun with the 'Cuda Polar, Doc. Seems most everyone wants one. 

I want my white dial Swifty though. Plus I've already got a white 40mm.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Two things I wear regularly.

One I enjoy. One I don't.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

RotorRonin said:


> Two things I wear regularly.
> 
> One I enjoy. One I don't.


No worries RotorRonin, I'm happy to help you out there mate.... I'll give you $50 and take that very unenjoyable Nacken off your hands..

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Red PeeKay said:


> No worries RotorRonin, I'm happy to help you out there mate.... I'll give you $50 and take that very unenjoyable Nacken off your hands..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryguy87 said:


> Is the waitlist for Polar Barracuda (both date and non-date) via Watch Gauge full? It seems to be full.
> 
> Regardless, glad I secured my spot earlier for one.





docvail said:


> How can a wait list be full?


Sorry, I forgot about this. I wasn't being a wise-a$$. I thought there'd be more discussion.

Regardless of the model, I think any retailer with a wait list would continue adding to it, even if it exceeds the number of watches they're getting, because not everyone on the list follows through with the purchase. I know both Watch Gauge and Serious don't limit their wait list size.

Both Watch Gauge and Serious Watches have apps built into their websites which make it easy for people to be added to their wait lists, but they operate differently.

If you go to the Serious website, any watch they don't have in stock will show as "sold out", but if you click through to the product page, you can add your email to be notified when the watch is back in stock. That feature is automatic - it's toggled on whenever a watch sells out, without Kaj needing to do anything.

This "sold out" signage definitely causes some confusion, based on the comments we saw before the watches went on sale.

I don't think they actually use a typical "wait list" system, meaning, I don't think they approach people in the order they were added to the list. I think they just add the inventory when they get more, everyone on the list gets an alert when that happens, and it's up to everyone on that list to act quickly, or risk missing out. My website also has that "notify me" feature, and works in a virtually identical way.

The system at Watch Gauge is a little more complex. John used to collect emails from guys expressing interest in a watch, and keep a literal list. Now, he's got an app for that, but he has to toggle it on and off manually. It doesn't come on automatically when a watch sells out.

I think when a watch sells out, it'll show as "sold out", until he gets around to toggling the app on for that product, at which time the "sold out" signage will switch to "Join Wait List".

So he has to keep an eye on his inventory. It's inevitable that there will be some delay between a watch selling out and that app being turned on. It's also inevitable that there will be some models which we're just not sure about - when he sells out, he may or may not be able to get more, so he may or may not toggle the wait list app on right away.

Unlike Serious, I think he's going through the lists which get created in order of people signing up, giving each person a chance to buy before moving onto the next person.

When we get a new model delivered to us in batches, like we're getting with the DevilRay, it makes my job (and Dan's) a lot more complex. We have to keep track of how much of a retailer's order we've shipped versus what we still owe them. Meanwhile, they're often adding more watches to their orders, and sometimes dealing with returns. It makes record-keeping and inventory-tracking extremely difficult for all of us.

We're still waiting to receive the last ~50 pieces from our factory. Of the first 250, there was a ~45 piece shipment to Serious which was shipped, but for some reason UPS turned it around and sent it back to us. More than a week later, we're just today sending it out a second time.

There are four retailers waiting on more DevilRays - Watch Gauge, Serious Watches, IntoWatch, and TimeIndo. So, if you see a watch as "sold out" on their sites, it may be that they're getting more, and the watch is only "sold out" because they ran through the inventory they've gotten so far. As far as I know, every version of the DevilRay is still available, somewhere, if not from your closest retailer.

It's been difficult for all of us to keep up the last two weeks, between me being out of the country on vacation last week, Dan being intermittently swamped at his day job or laid up with back spasms, me doing rehab for some chronic shoulder pain, and other life-stuff getting in the way.

Rusty just recently completed all the renders for the new 40mm Subs models, but I haven't had time to review them, much less create the product pages on my website, and upload them, even though Watch Gauge already has those product pages created, and a wait list started.

Adding to the fun - Dan's house and shop lost power on Tuesday, due to Tropical Storn Isaias passing directly over us. The utility company said it won't be back on until tomorrow. He hasn't been able to do as much for me, without access to the internet or good light in his workshop. I spent most of the afternoon at his place yesterday, going through some stuff with him, so I lost half a day in the office.

Also, John's son got a bad infection, and has been in the hospital the last week. He and his wife have been pulling shifts there, so he may not be as on-the-ball as he usually is. When he's been in the office, his focus has been on getting orders shipped, not keeping his website up to date.

Most of the above relates to the DevilRay. Some to the new 40mm Subs. Bottom line - we're doing our best. The production numbers are limited. I have no idea if the Barracuda White or any other model will sell out instantly, or be available for six months, and I don't have time to worry about it right now. I've got much bigger and more urgent matters to deal with. My focus right now is on getting the DevilRays in, through QC, and shipped to retailers, not on the models we're expecting in October.

My advice is to get on the wait list for whatever watch you want, if you see that option available, or make sure you're subscribed to the email newsletters, and ready to buy, as soon as they become available.

Hopefully that all makes sense.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

With all that chaos & confusion when do you find time to work on the watches, let alone post here? 

I'm leaving out the time necessary for sleep, consuming mass quantities, and bodily functions.


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## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

The bracelet is nice but....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

FYI, here is the Watch Gauge waitlist signup page. Confusingly (at least to me), you won't find these watches on their NTH page.









Wait Lists


Watch Gauge is a certified retailer of the best microbrands watches on the market. They carry a variety of affordable watches to fit everyone's style.




watchgauge.com


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

^Gurthang54 said:


> With all that chaos & confusion when do you find time to work on the watches, let alone post here?
> 
> I'm leaving out the time necessary for sleep, consuming mass quantities, and bodily functions.


He forgoes bodily functions. It all comes out in the WOTs!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Gurthang54 said:


> With all that chaos & confusion when do you find time to work on the watches, let alone post here?
> 
> I'm leaving out the time necessary for sleep, consuming mass quantities, and bodily functions.


I multi-task.

Most of my posting here is done while eating or pooping, so there's two birds getting killed at once.

I've also been known to drink in the office, or eat while working.

It's called time-efficiency, people.

Might want to google it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> FYI, here is the Watch Gauge waitlist signup page. Confusingly (at least to me), you won't find these watches on their NTH page.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because he wants to keep the pages of his site as uncluttered as possible. That "wait list" section is for watches coming in September-October, as opposed to watches we're getting in now, which would be on the NTH page.

The DevilRay on that page is likely an oversight on John's part, since, as I said, he's been dealing with having a kid in the hospital since last week, and that wait list app is a new addition to his website, one he's still getting the hang of.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Because he wants to keep the pages of his site as uncluttered as possible.


Well, to this potential customer, that doesn't seem like the best possible marketing plan. I went there to remind myself of what was coming up from NTH, and likely wouldn't have found them if I hadn't been clued in to the wait list by this thread.

One of my biggest frustrations with many watch company websites (the big boys primarily) is how hard it is to navigate through their pages to find all the watches. Lots of impossible-to-decipher category names, nested pages of variants of models, etc. I usually give up in frustration and head over to chrono24.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avo said:


> Well, to this potential customer, that doesn't seem like the best possible marketing plan. I went there to remind myself of what was coming up from NTH, and likely wouldn't have found them if I hadn't been clued in to the wait list by this thread.
> 
> One of my biggest frustrations with many watch company websites (the big boys primarily) is how hard it is to navigate through their pages to find all the watches. Lots of impossible-to-decipher category names, nested pages of variants of models, etc. I usually give up in frustration and head over to chrono24.


 I disagree.

WG is incredibly easy to look through. In the main drop down, there is 5 links other than _Home _and _Close. _And only two have the word _Watch _in the link. _Wait List Watches i_s the second link in the list right under _Watches._ If you're going to WG, to look for an NTH, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you're a little more watch savvy than the average joe. Hell, I'm gonna go ahead and say the average joe would most likely never find WG.

So if you're looking for a model from brand you know WG carries, but it's not on that brands main page, wouldn't your first instinct be "well, it is _upcoming, _let's check the Wait List page?" You're only two other options are the _ Chronos by Eagle Pens(_obviously no watches there),_ FAQ(_strike two) or _Contact Us(_I suppose that one could help in a pinch).

Sorry if I come off like a d*ck, it's been a frustrating day. Plus I _am_ a d*ck.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Went to WG. Saw the Wait List menu item. Clicked on it. Clicked on Barracuda Polar with date. 

I don't know how much simpler it be...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Someone say WG?









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Someone say WG?
> View attachment 15384894
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I have been looking at that Nazario Ghost a lot lately... I always hated California dials, but somehow this one I can't stop thinking about.


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

awrose said:


> The bracelet is nice but....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Beautiful strap where is that from? TIA

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> I have been looking at that Nazario Ghost a lot lately... I always hated California dials, but somehow this one I can't stop thinking about.


I waffled back and forth between the Ghost and the Sauro. It was a close fight, but the brighter and to me, more eye catching Sauro, won out. I love Cali dials for some reason.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> I have been looking at that Nazario Ghost a lot lately... I always hated California dials, but somehow this one I can't stop thinking about.


If you haven't seen it, I believe there is a used one posted for sale here. Attractive price.


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## AD6MJ (Jun 25, 2010)

ylnahnwatch said:


> View attachment 15001839
> 
> 
> There are many like her but she is mine.


Would definitely like this.


----------



## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

Hendu615 said:


> Beautiful strap where is that from? TIA


Watchgecko: Veryan NATO Watch Strap By Zuludiver


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

3WR said:


> If you haven't seen it, I believe there is a used one posted for sale here. Attractive price.


Yes, I know. It's killing me, but I can't right now!!


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

VB Amphion on Cuda rubber today...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents (and any ladies who might just be crazy enough to enjoy the shenanigans here), it's been a while since I did this, so here goes...

There are 5 *Odin Black* left in the world.

4 of those are no-date. 3 of those are at IntoWatch in S.Korea, and 1 is at the Watchdrobe in HK.

The last *Odin Black with-date* on the planet is at WatchGauge.

WatchGauge also has the last 2 *Skipjacks* in the world, both with date. They're not on his site at the moment. They're both returns for exchange. If you want a new Skipjack, this is your last chance. Email John ([email protected]) to tell him you want one.

There are 3 *Dolphin Ice* left in the world - 2 with date, and 1 no-date.

1 of the with-dates is at Serious, the other is at Five:45 in New Zealand.

The last *Dolphin Ice no-date* is also at Five:45.

There is one *Odin Blue* left in the world, a with-date, at Serious.

There is one *Amphion Commando* left in the world, a no-date, at Watch Gauge.

We're down to 150 NTH Subs left worldwide, just 6 pieces left, per version, on average.

Please don't be the guy to ask me when we'll make more of anything that's still available now, or was available within the last six months. The answer is the same one I gave to the last 8 guys who asked. I don't know, no time soon, definitely not this year, maybe not even next, and maybe not ever.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Gents (and any ladies who might just be crazy enough to enjoy the shenanigans here), it's been a while since I did this, so here goes...
> 
> There are 5 *Odin Black* left in the world.
> 
> ...


Um, soooo... Will there be more L&H Phantoms?



Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> Um, soooo... Will there be more L&H Phantoms?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Ooh ooh, how about a new Spectre? When can we expect some more of those?!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Better light:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

captainmorbid said:


> Um, soooo... Will there be more L&H Phantoms?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Ghost Riders?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> We're down to 150 NTH Subs left worldwide, just 6 pieces left, per version, on average.
> 
> Please don't be the guy to ask me when we'll make more of anything that's still available now, or was available within the last six months.


Myeah, but don't you have a new batch of subs (and XL subs) coming out right past the corner already? So that's 150 current + what, 200-300ish new subs about to drop.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Myeah, but don't you have a new batch of subs (and XL subs) coming out right past the corner already? So that's 150 current + what, 200-300ish new subs about to drop.


However... my guess is that there probably won't be another run of some of them, and if you really want others, it will be a while.

Dolphin, Amphion Commando, and Vanguard have taken long enough to sell out that I doubt you'll see them ever again.

Odin, Scorpene, Skipjack - I bet we see them again, but maybe sometime in 2021? Or not...

I think it's great that Doc does this on occasion, as a courtesy... even if I buy on release so as not to kick myself if something I really like sells out quick.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Myeah, but don't you have a new batch of subs (and XL subs) coming out right past the corner already? So that's 150 current + what, 200-300ish new subs about to drop.


I may not be picking up what you're putting down, or vice-versa.

The watches I mentioned above are all 40mm Subs. The 2K1's are completely different - different size, different styles.

Pointing out that we've got 225 pieces of the 2K1's coming in September is somewhat like pointing out that we're in the midst of delivering 300 DevilRays since July. What of it? How is a 2K1 or a DevilRay going to satisfy someone who really wants an Odin Blue?

Let me expound on this, to hopefully help explain why I occasionally do those "only X left" posts...

You may remember I traveled to Hong Kong and China in the spring of 2018. That trip was about figuring out how to improve production operations. That was a turning point for my business. Since then, we don't do prototypes, we rarely produce fewer than 500 pieces of a watch, and we don't make odd-ball numbers of new models.

When we did pre-orders, I'd ask my factory to produce and assemble different versions of a watch based on how many sold in pre-order, so we might make 5 of one version, and 45 of another. I was trying to perfectly match production to apparent demand, but we don't do that any more.

Now, whenever we come up with a new design, we produce a minimum of 50 dials per version. For date/no-date models, it's 50 each, for a total of 100. We also produce enough bezel inserts and handsets to assemble all 100.

But we'll typically only assemble the first 25 of each (25 date / 25 no-date), and put the rest of the components up on the shelf, for assembly later, if ever. Those parts aren't so expensive that I'd feel compelled to assemble those models if I wasn't confident they'd sell.

So, to take an example from the list I gave above, we made 100 Dolphin Ice - 50 were released in November 2018, and another 50 were released earlier this year. That's all the dials we had for that model.

Likewise, we made 100 of the Odin Black and 100 of the Skipjack.

Why wouldn't I make more?

Not every model is popular enough to justify making another 100. I look at how quickly the first 100 sold. If they sold out very quickly, we'll probably make more. If not, we probably won't.

If it took us more than a year to sell the first 50, we might never make the second 50. The longer a model is available before selling out, the longer I'll wait before making more.

It doesn't matter to me if there are 5-6 guys who really want one. Even if we still have 50 dials left, I'm not going to have my vendor assemble another 50 just because 5-6 guys want one. If we don't have any more dials left, I sure as $hlt won't be ordering another 100.

I'd rather produce a completely new version, for which there will likely be more demand (like the Barracuda Polar White). That helps keep the sales flowing, and also helps ease the concerns of people looking at used market values.

Let those 5-6 guys go buy one used, for a decent price, if they can find one. If they can't find one, then hopefully they'll be paying attention to future releases, and quicker to pull the trigger when we have something they want. Hopefully they'll understand that they can't always take 6-9 months to think about an NTH purchase.

For example - we made 100 of the Nacken Vintage White. The first 50 were released in November 2018, and sold out quickly enough that we made the second 50 in mid-2019. But the last of those second 50 pieces just sold within the last few months - so they were available for at least 6, if not 8-9 months.

Predictably, now that they've sold out, I've had at least half a dozen requests to make more.

But I doubt we'll make more of the Nacken Vintage White, or anything else mentioned in my post above, or any such "only X left" posts I've made this year.

I don't want to say we'll never make more, because I want to leave the door open to the possibility that my business will continue to grow, and eventually, the demand for a previously sold out model will be enough to make more.

In fact, within the next 6-12 months, I'm thinking about bringing back a few models that have been sold out for a while. But I'm talking about models that have been sold out for more than 12 months.

If someone was looking for one of those models since right after it sold out, it'll end up being 12-24 months until their next opportunity to buy one new. And once we sell out, it should become increasingly rare to find a good deal on a used one.

I don't want to box myself in by saying we'll NEVER make more. For some models, we still have the parts to assemble another 50. It's easier for me to rationalize assembling another 50 pieces of something than it is to order another 100.

But today, there's no way in hell I'd consider making more of most of the models we've produced in the past. Out of ~40 different Subs versions, there are maybe 6 that I think we'll make more of, within the next 12 months. The rest of the 40mm Subs versions we produce will be new designs.

I'm not trying to create a "fear of missing out". I don't play that "artificial scarcity" game. Everything on that list above has been available for a total of 6 months or more. There was ample opportunity for everyone to get everything we've produced.

I'm just trying to alert people that we're down to the last few pieces of models we won't be producing again any time soon, if we ever do. I want fewer people asking me when we'll make more, and fewer people complaining that the resale values aren't high enough.

I just did a search of listings for used Subs. The models we still have in stock or those which just recently sold out seem to be selling for $450-$500. The long sold out models are selling for $500-$700.

You're welcome.

So, if there's someone interested in getting one of the models we've already made, they shouldn't think about it too much longer.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii mod









Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Page 2? L&H FTW.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Page 2? L&H FTW.


That Ghost Rider dial was brilliant, if I do say so myself.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> That Ghost Rider dial was brilliant, if I do say so myself.


It was. And nobody's throwing rocks at the C300 either.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Now that Lorier have done some work redeeming acrylic crystals on watches, maybe it's time to consider another run (or a modified variant) of those ghostriders.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Now that Lorier have done some work redeeming acrylic crystals on watches, maybe it's time to consider another run (or a modified variant) of those ghostriders.


Pretty sure I'm done with acrylic.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Pretty sure I'm done with acrylic.


I don't get the appeal myself. "Sure it will get scratched up, but no big deal, jut get a tube of Polywatch and scrub it for like, 10 minutes, and then it's fine! ......until the next time it gets scratched to hell." Because that's a thing I want to do. My Oris looks close enough to me like '60s acrylic, and yet it has taken countless knocks against chairs, door frames, door handles, the cabinet next to the couch, etc, and still looks clear as day. You could argue that the crystal on the D65 actually protects the far more delicate and scratch prone bezel insert.

Given that sapphire isn't that expensive and can be made in a shape approximating classic bubble crystals if that's what you want, I don't see myself ever buying a watch with a plastic crystal. I think their Coltrane dress watch actually pulls off the acrylic mimicry even better than the D65 does.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - sapphire vs acrylic...these are my own personal, somewhat anecdotal observations...

1. We made 415 Phantoms with acrylic crystals. We've made over 7,000 watches with sapphire crystals. Acrylic, albeit easily scratchable, is supposedly indestructible otherwise, and yet we've replaced three times as many acrylic crystals. One guy managed to chip his acrylic crystal, which I didn't think was even possible to do.

2. Acrylic seems to be something only watch geeks really appreciate, but not all watch geeks really appreciate it. Some, perhaps even most would prefer sapphire to acrylic, and I've seen the debates about Lorier's pricing vis-a-vis the relative cost / value of acrylic versus sapphire. 

3. Non-watch geeks just don't seem to get it. Again, this is anecdotal, but my doctor bought a Phantom - he likes it, but he's remarked that the crystal is easy to scratch. I felt embarrassed telling him acrylic is considered "cool" among watch-geeks, and scratches can easily buff out with poly-watch. What normal person gives a $hlt what watch geeks think is cool when they're sitting there polishing the scratches out of their watch crystal?

4. All other things being equal, an acrylic crystal needs to be much thicker than a sapphire crystal, to achieve the same desired WR spec, which increases overall thickness, something I know many customers don't want.

5. Whereas a sapphire crystal can be friction fit, an acrylic crystal must be compressed before it can be fitted, making installation or replacement more difficult.

Having gone through this exercise, comparing results from the Phantom to our other models, seeing the debate regarding the Lorier, and knowing what most customers prefer, I don't see the advantage in using acrylic on future models.

I'm sure someone will want to argue with me. They should be sure nothing they say will have the slightest impact on my thinking, and every character they type will be wasted on me.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Re acrylic - have actually considered replacing the one on my Phantom with a sapphire.......

Cheerz,

Alan


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I like acrylic on my $80 Vostok; I truly have not come across another watch I like with acrylic, or any with sapphire where I go, "Man, if only this was acrylic!"...


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ragl said:


> Re acrylic - have actually considered replacing the one on my Phantom with a sapphire.......
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


 As have I. Mine is one of those that Doc replaced. Cracked!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In years past, there are certain things I felt like I had to get out of my system, like making a chronograph, or making a watch with acrylic, or using a Swiss movement, as three prominent examples. 

Once I had the experience, and dealt with the unforeseen consequences, I quickly got over those impulses. I now find myself less and less interested in doing things simply because I haven't yet, or because they seem like something every brand must eventually do.

It somewhat reminds me of a recent discussion in one of the FB groups I'm in. Someone asked how much people care about "Swiss". I was shocked how many people responded that it mattered little or nothing to them. I was sure the discussion would be much different. 

I couldn't help feeling a small amount of schadenfreude, thinking about a run-in I had with another brand owner, and how far out of its way the brand went to promote their watches' "Swissness". 

Perhaps there's an indication that reason is gaining ground within this largely irrational hobby.


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## soursenseless (Aug 28, 2016)

Just some anecdata that backs up what Chris is saying about acrylic:

I’ve got the acrylic version of the Sinn 356, and while I’m glad I got it because to me “it looks more vintage”, it’s also currently back at the AD because it’s got a crack running through it and I have no idea when it happened.

I regret nothing (still love the look) but this has disabused me of any notion that there’s anything more practical about acrylic. (Plus, exorbitant cost of this repair aside, I’ll probably make up the price difference with the sapphire version on polywatch purchases over the life of the watch)


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

I prefer sapphire. But it's always interesting to see other options. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> In years past, there are certain things I felt like I had to get out of my system, like making a chronograph, or making a watch with acrylic, or using a Swiss movement, as three prominent examples.
> 
> Once I had the experience, and dealt with the unforeseen consequences, I quickly got over those impulses. I now find myself less and less interested in doing things simply because I haven't yet, or because they seem like something every brand must eventually do.
> 
> ...


Early days I was one of those that insisted all my watches had to be "Swiss Made" with an appropriate Swiss movement... and then over time after much reading, discussion and experience am now most happy with a Miyota movement. Reliable, extremely accurate when regulated well (my Tissel submersible is the most accurate watch in my entire collection yet one of the cheapest), and if it craps out... easily and cheaply replaceable/repairable.

I'm no longer sold on these exotic euro movements, the Japanese are all over it now IMHO.

Keep up the good work Doc.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Pogo247 (May 11, 2020)

Any watches with acrylic is an instant no-go for me, even if I like the design of the watch (Lorier) etc. I'm not trying to impress any watch geeks, I just prefer watches that don't require toothpaste to look (and smell) fresh

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## reeder1 (Feb 10, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> I don't get the appeal myself. "Sure it will get scratched up, but no big deal, jut get a tube of Polywatch and scrub it for like, 10 minutes, and then it's fine! ......until the next time it gets scratched to hell." Because that's a thing I want to do. My Oris looks close enough to me like '60s acrylic, and yet it has taken countless knocks against chairs, door frames, door handles, the cabinet next to the couch, etc, and still looks clear as day. You could argue that the crystal on the D65 actually protects the far more delicate and scratch prone bezel insert.
> 
> Given that sapphire isn't that expensive and can be made in a shape approximating classic bubble crystals if that's what you want, I don't see myself ever buying a watch with a plastic crystal. I think their Coltrane dress watch actually pulls off the acrylic mimicry even better than the D65 does.


Davekaye90- I admire your taste in watches! I read Doc's comments/advice to his lawyer and his lawyer's buddy- guys w money starting to get into watches, and he mentioned the Oris Coltrane as an alternative to Junghans Max Bill(he suggested the Junghans as a choice over Nomos.). I like the Thelonius Monk watch in that series, too. It was a really interesting post. Obviously, I like NTH watches or I wouldn't be posting, but these Nackens are great! Beautiful work.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

reeder1 said:


> Davekaye90- I admire your taste in watches! I read Doc's comments/advice to his lawyer and his lawyer's buddy- guys w money starting to get into watches, and he mentioned the Oris Coltrane as an alternative to Junghans Max Bill(he suggested the Junghans as a choice over Nomos.). I like the Thelonius Monk watch in that series, too. It was a really interesting post. Obviously, I like NTH watches or I wouldn't be posting, but these Nackens are great! Beautiful work.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, although I should clarify that I don't own the Coltrane, I just think it's a really excellent example of how to make sapphire look like acrylic. I do like it though, although I would probably take the Dexter Gordon over it. Hard to say, I'm not really a dress watch guy.

This is what's currently in the stable, which is in sort of a holding period. I've got another watch in the shop for repair so it can then be sold, one that I haven't gotten around to selling yet, and then my DLC Samurai mod which is in what you might call "development hell." It'll get done....eventually. I thought I wanted a Ball Engineer M Marvelight 40mm for awhile, but now I don't think I do. I _am _waiting to see what else Oris decides to do with the new 41.5mm Aquis size. I have tiny wrists, and I thought the 39.5mm Clean Ocean looked small on _me. _If they do a Tungsten/Aquamarine blue in 41.5..... Finally there's the DLC Nazario.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Just received from John at Watch Gauge. From NY to east coast of Vancouver Island in 4 days. Very happy with watch and service..


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MuckyMark said:


> Just received from John at Watch Gauge. From NY to east coast of Vancouver Island in 4 days. Very happy with watch and service.


Awesome. Always happy to hear when guys like the product, and the service they got from one of my retail partners.

Let us know if it gives you any trouble. And please feel free to write a positive review on the website (mine and/or John's), and tell others if your'e happy with it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...I bought a new (used) car today. Gotta go pick it up tomorrow. Just closing the loop on that recent discussion.

I found a good deal on a 2016 VW GTI, loaded, great condition, the color I wanted, with low enough mileage for me not to worry that it's going to break, but high enough I can see possibly giving it to my younger son in 4 years.

I was really hot for the all wheel drive and more powerful Golf R, and not really big on having a front-wheel-drive car, but they're hard to find, period, much less a good deal on one, with a low enough price. And if I did get one, I wouldn't want my son to have it, so this works better. Instead of getting him a car in 4 years, I'll get another one for me.

Next up - replacement dog. Those of you connected to me on FB may have seen that we had to put our old girl down a few weeks back. Yes, the family was heart-broken, but my wife's been searching the innerwebz for her replacement, looking at rescues. I'm sure it won't be long before we've got another.

None of them live long enough.


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Pogo247 said:


> Any watches with acrylic is an instant no-go for me, even if I like the design of the watch (Lorier) etc. I'm not trying to impress any watch geeks, I just prefer watches that don't require toothpaste to look (and smell) fresh
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


I thought I was in the same boat as you until I saw the speedy pro with sapphire and acrylic side by side. The hesalite looked so much better to me.....and scratches are like patina!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm sorry, Doc. We lost our fur kid a year ago and we'll probably wait another year. That was rough and we're just not ready yet. I'm excited for you guys! I miss having that extra presence in the house.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> I'm sorry, Doc. We lost our fur kid a year ago and we'll probably wait another year. That was rough and we're just not ready yet. I'm excited for you guys! I miss having that extra presence in the house.


Thanks Matt. She was sick all year. We knew it was coming, and had time to prepare, but it still sucks to say goodbye to them. I've had to put down two before, but this was my sons' first pet, and so their first time having to go through that pain.

I wasn't sure we'd be ready for another one so soon. We're not rushing. I think it's somewhat therapeutic for my wife to spend the time searching for "the one". When the time is right, we'll get another.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> So...I bought a new (used) car today. Gotta go pick it up tomorrow. Just closing the loop on that recent discussion.
> 
> I found a good deal on a 2016 VW GTI, loaded, great condition, the color I wanted, with low enough mileage for me not to worry that it's going to break, but high enough I can see possibly giving it to my younger son in 4 years.
> 
> ...


Nice. FWIW, the R's AWD system is heavily front drive biased anyway, (usual VW Haldex setup) so there's not _that _much difference day to day, particularly if your GTI happens to have the performance pack. Hopefully it does, because the torque sensing LSD makes a big difference. As for the power, a $700 APR tune could take care of that (if desired). Always reversible of course when it comes time to hand it down. They measured something like 240/270 from the factory, and their basic tune takes that to about 290/320.

I had been thinking about a new/used purchase myself this year, but Corona put the kibosh on that. Maybe next summer. I'm cursed with only being interested in _extremely _rare cars, and I would prefer to be able to fly out and actually get behind the wheel before signing anything.

Best of luck in your search for the new doggo.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

My new (to me) NTH Odin, usually worn on this Crown & Buckle Chevron "Night". It also spends time on a black Barton Elite Silicone as I really don't care for the bracelet...but I love the watch. It's quickly become my #1 Go To!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Sorry for the loss of your furry friend, Doc.

I personally don't have any as of now, but me mum does. Can't live without em. Beginning of this year she had three, a 15yo 100lb pit, a 12yo lil ankle biter and a 6yo pit mix. Within a month of each other the two oldest had to be put to sleep for medical reasons. Tore her up. She's still got the pit mix, and recently started to foster a sweet ol' mutt of yet undetermined ancestry.

Edit: It's late. So here's a gratuitous lume shot.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Dang, didn't see the bottom about to drop out of that GTI post. Was enthused to hear about the car. Dog ending and photo was major bummer.

When we decided to get a dog, we had fun stalking social media of local rescue organizations. Finally found the _perfect_ one. But he wasn't the one when we met. Went to some more adoption events. While at one, we figured we'd say hi to a dog we didn't expect to like. They opened the crate, the dog walked straight over to my wife and laid her head on her shoulder and that was that. Now we're a dog family and can't believe how much we all love that pooch. I dread the thought of losing her.

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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

3WR said:


> Dang, didn't see the bottom about to drop out of that GTI post. Was enthused to hear about the car. Dog ending and photo was major bummer.
> 
> When we decided to get a dog, we had fun stalking social media of local rescue organizations. Finally found the _perfect_ one. But he wasn't the one when we met. Went to some more adoption events. While at one, we figured we'd say hi to a dog we didn't expect to like. They opened the crate, the dog walked straight over to my wife and laid her head on her shoulder and that was that. Now we're a dog family and can't believe how much we all love that pooch. I dread the thought of losing her.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup, it usually happens that they pick you, not the other way around.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> Yup, it usually happens that they pick you, not the other way around.


This.

The first dog my wife and I got after getting married was a pit mix we rescued. Someone had literally dumped him over the fence of the shelter the night before we went there looking. Our suspicion was always that whoever did it probably wanted him to fight, but he just didn't have the temperament for it. He was such a mush.

He was in a pen with a bunch of other dogs. When we walked up, some of them started poking their noses through the fence, but he muscled them out of the way to get his full mug into view, and as soon as I saw him, I knew he was the one.

He was also the one who inspired the "Sparky" logo for Lew & Huey, and the name.

I had to put him down in his prime. Long story. But that's the one that hurt me the worst, because he wasn't old yet. I was nowhere near ready to say goodbye. Going through that made letting go of Ali a little easier.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

We had to put Duncan down within the first year I got with mrs-ish mconlonx. Duncan was a big black lab. Sadness. She's jonesing for another dog, but we also have an older cat who is very much enjoying being king of the house. Sorry to hear you had to put yours down, Doc...

I picked up a 14 VW Jetta Sportwägen TDI last Dec and love it. More for the mileage on my long daily commute (just in time for reduction in commute due to working at home...). For sporty, we still have her Volvo C30 R-Design Polestar, and my BMW R1200RT. Yeah, it's a touring bike, but any motorcycle is usually more sporting than most cars...

From yesterday.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

With all this talk of dogs I'm curious to know whether the US has gone the way of the UK in terms of prices for puppies. My wife and daughter have had a hankering for a dog for ages, rescue dogs are generally out of scope (because of the other animals we have and our daughters age) and puppies are phenomenally expensive. I could get a couple of NTH subs for the price of an "affordable" puppy, move into the "luxury" end and we're talking Tudor BB58 money easily. It's gotten to the point where theft of dogs is becoming increasingly common because of the prices. Seems utterly crazy to me.....


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

All this dog talk....
Here's our girl, River, when we got her a year ago and what she looks like now.

For reference, here in Florida, River was as about half the cost of my NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt! Love my dog and my NTH!























Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> With all this talk of dogs I'm curious to know whether the US has gone the way of the UK in terms of prices for puppies. My wife and daughter have had a hankering for a dog for ages, rescue dogs are generally out of scope (because of the other animals we have and our daughters age) and puppies are phenomenally expensive. I could get a couple of NTH subs for the price of an "affordable" puppy, move into the "luxury" end and we're talking Tudor BB58 money easily. It's gotten to the point where theft of dogs is becoming increasingly common because of the prices. Seems utterly crazy to me.....


Puppies can be expensive to buy, depending on the breed and the pedigree.

Even rescues - for all the effort put into getting people to adopt a pet, it can still cost hundreds of dollars in fees and whatnot. Before we got Ali, we tried to rescue one, had her for less than 24 hours before realizing we had to return her, and didn't get our money back.

We got lucky with Ali. She was the last pup left from her litter, probably the runt, sold to us by some half-arsed, backwoods "breeder", really just a couple with two boxers they let mate. I didn't get the impression they were breeding as a business. I forget what we paid, but remember thinking it was a bargain compared to what we lost on the rescue.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> With all this talk of dogs I'm curious to know whether the US has gone the way of the UK in terms of prices for puppies. My wife and daughter have had a hankering for a dog for ages, rescue dogs are generally out of scope (because of the other animals we have and our daughters age) and puppies are phenomenally expensive. I could get a couple of NTH subs for the price of an "affordable" puppy, move into the "luxury" end and we're talking Tudor BB58 money easily. It's gotten to the point where theft of dogs is becoming increasingly common because of the prices. Seems utterly crazy to me.....


Yes, for specific breeds that are more popular, 2-3k easily.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Puppies can be expensive to buy, depending on the breed and the pedigree.
> 
> Even rescues - for all the effort put into getting people to adopt a pet, it can still cost hundreds of dollars in fees and whatnot. Before we got Ali, we tried to rescue one, had her for less than 24 hours before realizing we had to return her, and didn't get our money back.
> 
> We got lucky with Ali. She was the last pup left from her litter, probably the runt, sold to us by some half-arsed, backwoods "breeder", really just a couple with two boxers they let mate. I didn't get the impression they were breeding as a business. I forget what we paid, but remember thinking it was a bargain compared to what we lost on the rescue.





ryan850 said:


> Yes, for specific breeds that are more popular, 2-3k easily.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Puppy prices have probably doubled in the UK during lockdown and that's just for mixed breeds, pedigree or specials are even more. Probably everyone working from home fulfilling that desire for dog now that it seems more manageable. Interesting to see what happens (if) when things return to normal......


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

If you have a specific breed in mind start contacting area breeders and breed clubs. My springer was a field-bred dog that didn't make the cut for hunting, breeder basically gave him away. Check w/ larger breeding kennels, they do (occasionally) foster older dogs past breeding prime. My sis-in-law's Springer, Jenny, is a beautiful champion blood-lines show bred that didn't make the AKC breed standard (~ 1" short at shoulder) so she was sold for a fraction of her litter-mates value. 

So sorry about your loss Doc, I know the heart-ache and loneliness that follows is profound, like the love and joy they bless us with all their lives.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There's a couple around the corner from us who adopted an English bulldog a breeder had been using for breeding, Charlotte. Apparently she'd had 2-3 litters, and that was it, the breeder just gave her away. English bulldogs are insanely expensive. so that was a sweet deal.

My wife and I like to go by their house when we take walks, hoping she'll be outside. She's such a sweet girl. When you rub her chest, she oinks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Our old next-door-neighbors' son and daughter in-law had a French Bulldog-Chihuahua mix, named Feta, then adopted another Frenchie, a pup that had "water on the brain", named Nacho.

He's borderline retarded, I think, but awesome nonetheless. He's got an enormous head from the skull swelling up. He looks like he's about to tip over.

He always reminded me of "The Brain" from that old cartoon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Odin Blue is now sold out, worldwide.

We're in the midst of shuffling some inventory around between retailers. Those of you who are in the USA and/or like buying from John at Watch Gauge, he should be getting some more of the Odin Black no-date, the Skipjack, the Dolphin Ice, the Amphion Vintage Gilt, and the Nacken Vintage Black from some of our other partners.

It's not many pieces, though. We're looking at 1-3 pieces per model, that's it.

Worldwide inventory is about 6 pieces, per Subs version, on average. Only about 135 pieces left.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

How's the weather in y'alls neck of the woods? Needless to say... the strap got a bit water logged today out on the shop floor. 








It read 109°F when I started the truck up to head home.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> Puppy prices have probably doubled in the UK during lockdown and that's just for mixed breeds, pedigree or specials are even more. Probably everyone working from home fulfilling that desire for dog now that it seems more manageable. Interesting to see what happens (if) when things return to normal......


I'm sure many dogs will be heartbroken when things return to "normal".

Oddly, our dog is much happier now that were all back to work from lockdown. After about the third week you could just sense she was like, "OMG When are these fuquers going to leave already."


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

MuckyMark said:


> Just received from John at Watch Gauge. From NY to east coast of Vancouver Island in 4 days. Very happy with watch and service..


Wow. Awesome pics. That first one is the most stunning to me. The thing about this watch is that all the dials look amazing. I've always been a sucker for a steel watch with silver dial and this is fantastic. Enjoy!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Tikuna on simple, plain khaki won this mornings selection process.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Psyche!


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)




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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I agree, but PVD.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 15401424


That is one of the coolest watches (if not THE coolest watch) I've seen from NTH. I assume this is one of the older models with an acrylic crystal? If so, it looks great. Love the case shape and polished hands, too. If this watch was available right now I'd have a _very _hard time stopping myself from buying one.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## The Dude Hank (Feb 19, 2018)

I think the lume works









The Dude Abides


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Dude Hank said:


> I think the lume works
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Makes you want to check your radiation exposure after looking at it a while:


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

In my entire life, I think I've had someone notice and comment on my watch a grand total of five times (I started keeping track about the same time I joined WUS, with only one of the five before that time). Today, I had a young man remark about this one, which ironically has been noticed before (so, two of the five scores). What makes it ironic, is that the last time someone commented, it had a different bezel and dial....

Curious.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

It's been obnoxiously quiet around here lately. Let's see if I can incite a WOT with some information from Doc....

How's the production in the 2K1's going? I know the website hasn't changed delivery from Sept. 2020, but any idea on which half of the month? I'm gonna assume second half, maybe last week of?

Have you started to receive them and begun QC? 

Are you purposely staying radio silent on them to keep us on the edge of our seats in anticipation?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

It has been a bit quiet


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Yeah this thread usually is more active. Guess Doc has been busy. I'm waiting on that DLC Nazario.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah this thread usually is more active. Guess Doc has been busy. I'm waiting on that DLC Nazario.


You and I both, my friend.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> It's been obnoxiously quiet around here lately. Let's see if I can incite a WOT with some information from Doc....
> 
> How's the production in the 2K1's going? I know the website hasn't changed delivery from Sept. 2020, but any idea on which half of the month? I'm gonna assume second half, maybe last week of?
> 
> ...


As it happens, I just emailed my vendors to request an update to the delivery timeline earlier today. Waiting on a reply.

So, no, we haven't received them yet, and QC hasn't yet begun.

I just haven't had much to say the last few days.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> As it happens, I just emailed my vendors to request an update to the delivery timeline earlier today. Waiting on a reply.
> 
> So, no, we haven't received them yet, and QC hasn't yet begun.
> 
> I just haven't had much to say the last few days.


Unsponsored lifeguards got you down?

What's your thoughts on dipping your toe in the shallow(er) end of the watch market? Not with the NTH brand of course, but it's fun to imagine what you and your team would come up with at the under $300 level. It seems like the margins would be tighter, but... still interesting(to me).

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

I've made the bold switch from a "Midnight" C&B Chevron to a CheapestNATOStraps single layer NATO in black Sharktooth.
Tomorrow: An equally bold change to a black Barton Elite Silicone! Maybe.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> You and I both, my friend.


Thinking about pairing it with a Colareb, in addition to my usual black straps. I feel like the tan and brown CWs I have wouldn't be quite right, but I think this should pair nicely.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> In my entire life, I think I've had someone notice and comment on my watch a grand total of five times (I started keeping track about the same time I joined WUS, with only one of the five before that time). Today, I had a young man remark about this one, which ironically has been noticed before (so, two of the five scores). What makes it ironic, is that the last time someone commented, it had a different bezel and dial....
> 
> Curious.
> 
> View attachment 15406201


Happy fifth. What are we looking at here? Modded sub?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> Thinking about pairing it with a Colareb, in addition to my usual black straps. I feel like the tan and brown CWs I have wouldn't be quite right, but I think this should pair nicely.
> 
> View attachment 15406713


I'm sure I'll switch around like I normally do... but I wanna find a nice burgundy single pass with DLC hardware for it.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> Happy fifth. What are we looking at here? Modded sub?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is one of Doc's early NTH subs. It is/was a prototype that he auctioned off here in a charity fund raiser. Made from parts, it originally had the same dial, but with no date, and a gray bezel (maybe Nacken Vintage). I'm thinking the hands came from a Scorpene. This bezel is from a Catalina. For a bit I had an aftermarket dial found on eBay, but realized I loved the old military look and found this dial also on the bay. I have a photo of the older one somewhere, I'll rummage around to see if I can dig it up.

The work was done by @jelliottz . Still might be my favorite watch of all time, now on version 2 of the NTH bracelet...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I'm sure I'll switch around like I normally do... but I wanna find a nice burgundy single pass with DLC hardware for it.


Yeah DLC buckle is definitely a must. Fortunately Holben's sells them with one already fitted for a few extra bucks. I'm still going to have to do surgery to fit QR springbars, but at least Colarebs are pretty easy to mod since the leather is so soft.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> This is one of Doc's early NTH subs. It is/was a prototype that he auctioned off here in a charity fund raiser. Made from parts, it originally had the same dial, but with no date, and a gray bezel (maybe Nacken Vintage). I'm thinking the hands came from a Scorpene. This bezel is from a Catalina. For a bit I had an aftermarket dial found on eBay, but realized I loved the old military look and found this dial also on the bay. I have a photo of the older one somewhere, I'll rummage around to see if I can dig it up.
> 
> The work was done by @jelliottz . Still might be my favorite watch of all time, now on version 2 of the NTH bracelet...


Found one:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Unsponsored lifeguards got you down?
> 
> What's your thoughts on dipping your toe in the shallow(er) end of the watch market? Not with the NTH brand of course, but it's fun to imagine what you and your team would come up with at the under $300 level. It seems like the margins would be tighter, but... still interesting(to me).
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


There's no compelling reason for me to want to sell cheaper watches.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> There's no compelling reason for me to want to sell cheaper watches.


So much for the WOT.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> It's been obnoxiously quiet around here lately. Let's see if I can incite a WOT with some information from Doc....
> 
> How's the production in the 2K1's going? I know the website hasn't changed delivery from Sept. 2020, but any idea on which half of the month? I'm gonna assume second half, maybe last week of?
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> As it happens, I just emailed my vendors to request an update to the delivery timeline earlier today. Waiting on a reply.
> 
> So, no, we haven't received them yet, and QC hasn't yet begun.
> 
> I just haven't had much to say the last few days.


Heard back from them. They're saying mid-September, so I'm guessing that's going to mean late September.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> So much for the WOT.


Sorry to disappoint. It's a topic I've WOT'd before.

Yes, I just turned WOT into a verb. Deal with it.

As TL;DR as I can make it -

1. Wherever we draw the line between "entry-level" and "mid-market", the big brands with big scale are always going to be able to dominate in that entry level space, making it harder for a small boutique brand to be competitive.

2. Regardless of what I charge for a watch, there are certain costs which remain the same, and as such, become a bigger drag on the economy of the business when the price of the watch is lower.

For instance, the box costs the same to produce, whether the watch inside is $300 or $800. In terms of what that box costs as a percentage of that sale, it's better for that box to contain a more expensive watch.

Forget the box, and look at the components. The steel bracelet link, case, or clasp costs the same, whether the movement inside is a Seiko NH35, a Miyota 9015, or an ETA 2892-2. As a percentage of the sale, those parts cost less when a higher price can be rationalized.

Look at all the guys who balk at the price of a watch just based on the movement inside, as if all the other parts cost less when the movement costs less, which of course is just ludicrous, but that's how a lot of guys think.

Shipping the boxes and the watches here, to me, costs the same. Shipping to the warehouse costs the same. The cost of design (what I pay Aaron and Rusty), the time I'm investing in design, production management, and support, what Dan charges me to do QC and repairs - all the same, regardless of what the watch costs.

When all those costs are the same, I'm better off investing in a watch that will cost more, rather than less. The more the watch costs, the less of a factor those line-item component costs are.

I can make up some of the difference in costs (like the cost of design) by producing and selling more of the lower cost watch (assuming I _CAN_ sell more), thereby bringing the cost per watch down. But I can't do that with the cost of the box, the cost of the parts, the cost of shipping, the cost of support, etc.

People think if I make a $300 watch, I'll sell twice as many as I would at $600, and therefore it makes sense for me to produce a lower-priced watch. But - A) that's not necessarily true, and in my observation, it's never true, and entirely possible I'll sell fewer, and B) even if it were true, I'd also have twice as many support requests, each of which takes the same amount of time to handle, regardless of what the watch costs.

I'll also pay twice as much in shipping, twice as much in QC, etc. Making more doesn't lower those costs on a per-watch basis, the way the cost of design is brought down, per watch.

If I'm going to invest my time developing a new model, managing its production, promoting it, providing support to the customers who buy it, and paying for production and shipping, it's better for my business if the watch costs more, not less.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Heard back from them. They're saying mid-September, so I'm guessing that's going to mean late September.


Sent out on mid-september, usps being the way they are, might arrive mid-december...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sent out on mid-september, usps being the way they are, might arrive mid-december...


USPS doesn't ship from Hong Kong. We use FedEx. Most of our shipments get from HK to Dan in 2-3 days, tops, unless a shipment is made over the weekend, or gets held up in customs, which shouldn't happen, and doesn't happen too often.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> People think if I make a $300 watch, I'll sell twice as many as I would at $600, and therefore it makes sense for me to produce a lower-priced watch. But - A) that's not necessarily true, and in my observation, it's never true, and entirely possible I'll sell fewer, and B) even if it were true, I'd also have twice as many support requests, each of which takes the same amount of time to handle, regardless of what the watch costs.


There's also a good chance the profit margin would be less on the $300 watch, than the $600 watch. So you'd either need to sell more than twice the amount to make up the difference, or settle for less profit.

The more sales/less profit "race to zero" model is a losing proposition, which inevitably leads to less quality, less support, less QC, etc. as corners are cut to maintain profit and even sheer business viability. Where Doc has established a market at a given price point, it would be foolish to undercut that with lower pricing, even on different lines or with a different brand. Unless he delved into a very different business model.

I was even a bit surprised to see pricing on the new run of Devil Rays dropped to reflect the change of movement.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> There's no compelling reason for me to want to sell cheaper watches.


I definitely wasn't aiming for WOTtage.

I couldn't remember if it was a prior topic.

After I asked, and asked myself "what would Doc say", I pretty much ended up where your next reply landed.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

I love a good pricing debate. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

Sorry...new guy...what's WOT?
_edit_ oh wait...Way Off Topic?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Chuckracer said:


> Sorry...new guy...what's WOT?
> _edit_ oh wait...Way Off Topic?


Wall Of Text. Scroll back a bit and if you hit a post where you can't see either end of it on a full screen even after scrolling a bit, chances are it will be username Docvail at the top...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> There's also the absolute certainty the profit margin would be less on the $300 watch, than the $600 watch. So you'd either need to sell more than twice the amount to make up the difference, or settle for less profit.


FTFY - the profit margin, measured in dollars, is absolutely certain to be less, when the price is lower, even if it might be larger as a percentage, as it may often be (i.e, there's probably a larger markup on a $400 watch than there is on a $4,000 watch).

That point could be somewhat inferred from my earlier post - only some of my costs can be spread out and made lower per watch, assuming I produce more, which isn't a give (we only made 300 of the lower-priced DevilRays).

Design costs are about the only cost that get lower per watch when we produce in higher numbers. All the other costs are pretty much the same, on a per-watch basis, except for movements, which are the biggest variable, if all other things are equal.



mconlonx said:


> The more sales/less profit "race to zero" model is a losing proposition, which inevitably leads to less quality, less support, less QC, etc. as corners are cut to maintain profit and even sheer business viability. Where Doc has established a market at a given price point, it would be foolish to undercut that with lower pricing, even on different lines or with a different brand. Unless he delved into a very different business model.
> 
> I was even a bit surprised to see pricing on the new run of Devil Rays dropped to reflect the change of movement.


The 40mm NTH Subs are our bread-and-butter, the core product. Everything else would typically be made less frequently, and in smaller volumes. I thought it made strategic sense to have a model priced lower than the Subs, just as we are making models that are priced higher.

The timing was such that we just happened to re-examining our movement options when it came time to make more DevilRays, and that the Seiko NH3X series was an obvious candidate to use in that case, since I was looking to produce something at a lower price anyway.

I think it makes sense for a brand to stick to a certain price range, but maximize what they're doing within that range. Over time, the range can drift up - 8 years ago, I started out thinking $300-$600 for Lew & Huey, now it's more like $500-$800 for NTH - but it can be difficult for a brand to find success if it's all over the place with its products' prices.

I don't have any interest in selling anything for less than $500 (not even with a different brand), and I think it would be a challenge for me to sell much beyond $800, at least under the NTH brand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested, Rusty completed the full set of renders for the new 40mm Subs, which have now been uploaded to the NTH website, and can most easily be found here - Coming Soon | NTH Watches.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Chuckracer said:


> Sorry...new guy...what's WOT?
> _edit_ oh wait...Way Off Topic?


McCon beat me to it.

You'll also occasionally see BOP. Which stands for Beads of Poop. How some of us lovingly refer to the stellar Beads of Rice bracelet that Doc produces. I can't remember whom, but BOP is thanks to another members kid saying the beads didn't look like rice, they looked like poops.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> McCon beat me to it.
> 
> You'll also occasionally see BOP. Which stands for Beads of Poop. How some of us lovingly refer to the stellar Beads of Rice bracelet that Doc produces. I can't remember whom, but BOP is thanks to another members kid saying the beads didn't look like rice, they looked like poops.


Pretty sure it was @Perdendosi

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Wall Of Text. Scroll back a bit and if you hit a post where you can't see either end of it on a full screen even after scrolling a bit, chances are it will be username Docvail at the top...


That's funny! Thanks!

In the motorcycle world (at least the sporty side of streetbikes and dirtbikes) it means Wide Open Throttle.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Chuckracer said:


> That's funny! Thanks!
> 
> In the motorcycle world (at least the sporty side of streetbikes and dirtbikes) it means Wide Open Throttle.


That's Doc, too. He'll likely deny that, but....


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't have any interest in selling anything for less than $500 (not even with a different brand), and I think it would be a challenge for me to sell much beyond $800, at least under the NTH brand.


I agree that going under $500 makes no sense, as that market is _well _saturated already, and I think only invites 10X more complaints about whatever the price would be being too high compared to Spinnaker or Phoibos or whoever else.

Pushing to $850+ would put you in direct competition with Chris Ward, and I have to imagine that people would start to demand something comparable in terms of specs to the C60 then - Swiss movement, ceramic or sapphire bezels, etc, and we all know how you feel about those things.

Pricing on the sub makes sense right where it is. You're getting a premium product compared to lower cost micro divers, but you're not getting (or paying extra for) frills which you might not even necessarily want, like the SW-200 in the C60 vs. the 9015.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Chuckracer said:


> That's funny! Thanks!
> 
> In the motorcycle world (at least the sporty side of streetbikes and dirtbikes) it means Wide Open Throttle.


Pretty sure it means that in most circles outside of this (very manly!) jewelry forum. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> Pushing to $850+ would put you in direct competition with Chris Ward, and I have to imagine that people would start to demand something comparable in terms of specs to the C60 then - Swiss movement, ceramic or sapphire bezels, etc, and we all know how you feel about those things.


Considering their frequent 15, 30% and 50% sales (or the constant €120-off coupons), NTH is already in direct competition with CW price wise, at least for European prices. (new NTH sub from SW = €699, new CW C65 auto diver on seasonal discount or nearly new or couponified = €500 to €750).


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

OTOH, I'm still waiting for CW to produce a watch I just can't live without...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Considering their frequent 15, 30% and 50% sales (or the constant €120-off coupons), NTH is already in direct competition with CW price wise, at least for European prices. (new NTH sub from SW = €699, new CW C65 auto diver on seasonal discount or nearly new or couponified = €500 to €750).


In the US, the C60 on bracelet is normally about $820 if you factor in their usual 15% off deal, so definitely higher than NTH where current models are $650-675. CW sometimes does much bigger discounts, but those are usually old stock or whatever that they're trying to get rid of, and those watches don't last long. It's not like you can just go on the CW site and get any C60 you want for half off. Used vs. new also isn't really a fair comparison - and NTH is doing that now too, and you can get yourself an Odin or Skipjack for under $600.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> OTOH, I'm still waiting for CW to produce a watch I just can't live without...


There's also that. I like the idea behind the sapphire dial Trident, but not the execution. Who wants to look at a completely undecorated SW200-1 top plate and date wheel tinted blue? They apparently sold tons of them, but I don't get the appeal, personally.


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## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> USPS doesn't ship from Hong Kong. We use FedEx. Most of our shipments get from HK to Dan in 2-3 days, tops, unless a shipment is made over the weekend, or gets held up in customs, which shouldn't happen, and doesn't happen too often.


FedEx is not so good lately, but they blame it all on Covid-19.

Bought a watch from Hong Kong on August 10th, shipped to Perth Australia on 11th, I assumed that FedEx would use a direct freight flight from HK to Perth, but not this time.


















I have just been advised by FedEx that the final leg from the Matraville depot in Sydney to Perth will be by road and will take at least 4-5 days, but they did not say when it will leave Sydney. If it arrives in Perth close to next weekend, it will then most likely take a few days to be processed and delivered to me.

The watch will have more frequent flyer miles than I have.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> There's also that. I like the idea behind the sapphire dial Trident, but not the execution. Who wants to look at a completely undecorated SW200-1 top plate and date wheel tinted blue? They apparently sold tons of them, but I don't get the appeal, personally.


They come soooooo close on many different models, but size, use of vintage lume, uni-directional bezel on a GMT... Frustrating, but does save me money...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> They come soooooo close on many different models, but size, use of vintage lume, uni-directional bezel on a GMT... Frustrating, but does save me money...


I feel the same way. They recently had a half-off sale on selected models, and one of them was the blue C65 GMT. I had always admired the clasp, but when it came time to actually spend the money I couldn't bring myself to like it enough...

FWIW, there's always another brand with "something similar" for less money. Personally, I like the Glycines better than Chr Ward. And the NTH sub on BoP...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

BigEd said:


> FedEx is not so good lately, but they blame it all on Covid-19.
> 
> Bought a watch from Hong Kong on August 10th, shipped to Perth Australia on 11th, I assumed that FedEx would use a direct freight flight from HK to Perth, but not this time.
> 
> ...


Man, that's a strange shipping journey. From HK, to CN? Usually it's the other way around...

FWIW, I ordered from Maranez Aug 11, watch shipped via FedEx from HK Aug 12, and I received it East Coast USA Aug 14. Shipping was included in the discount price, and I was completely amazed by the speed, from order to receipt.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

I paid the same money for my Christopher Ward Mark II Trident Pro 600 43mm, the one with the nice logo in the right place and the wave dial as I did for my Odin. The Christopher Ward is now for sale.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RE - FedEx

When it comes to getting our goods here to the USA, we don't have many choices in couriers. It's basically DHL, UPS, and FedEx. 

I've had bad experiences with all of them, but generally found the best overall experience with FedEx. I've got an account rep I can call for help, and their website is easier to use than DHL's or UPS's. Plus, just last week I negotiated some lower rates with them, so that's who we typically use.

RE - Chris Ward

Monta just released a new model, the Noble, once again prompting people online to demand some explanation for why it's priced the way it is ($1600 in pre-order). I coudn't help mentally comparing Monta to Chris Ward. I see both as being comparably "premium" boutique brands.

Whereas some people seem to wonder what Monta is thinking with their prices, I look at Chris Ward and wonder how they do it with theirs. 

When I looked at the US website for CW earlier this week, the C60 Trident Pro 600 was $895. I'm sure I couldn't make that watch and sell it for that much or less, given the cost of Swiss movements, and all the other features of that watch (the clasp, the Swiss assembly, the finishing, etc).

Today, it's $965 "pre-order for September". I don't know if the price changes daily, with currency fluctuations, or if I just happened to look twice in the same week that they raised prices. But ~$1000 seems closer to what that watch would probably cost if I made it using my suppliers, given the cost of Swiss movements these days, and I still wouldn't be able to label it "Swiss Made".

Today's $965 price might still be low, and either way, I'm still impressed that CW can sell them for under $1k. Considering the overall package, that seems like quite the bargain. 

All that said, and this isn't meant as an argument in any way - I do agree that it isn't a fair comparison, if we're comparing their sale prices to another brand's every day prices, even if their sales are quite frequent. 

At least at one time, I was subscribed to their email newsletter. Judging by the messages I haven't been getting, it seems like their sales are happening less frequently these days than in recent years past, when 15% was more the norm than 30%-50%. Unless I just haven't been getting their emails, I wonder if they've figured out their production well enough to avoid having a sale every-other week.

It also seems like their sales rarely apply to their most popular versions of their most popular models. The few times I've gotten an email about their sales, then gone to look at what's available, I've never seen the versions/models I really like. 

If you want a specific CW, it seems like your best shot at getting it is to pay full price for it.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

_shrug_ compare used prices across the board then. NTH and CW will be on the same level again.

I'm just making a point here that NTH watches *already are* in direct competition with ChrisWard watches, both based on "buy from brand" (including full 5 year warranty, 2 month return-after-purchase-if-unhappy) and "buy 2nd hand used" (wus or ebay) lines. I've bought 2 CW's as "nearly new" and tbh they were as good as new. I guess this may vary from specific piece to piece, but it's definitely not nearly the same level as what you'd get from a used watch on WUS.

Yeah, sure, some CW watches go way up in price. Some don't look as nice. Same for NTH subs, with a notable variation in the demand between different models. Likewise some NTH subs are _no longer made_ or there are only, idk, _10-20 left globally_, as we get judiciously reminded every 2nd week when there is a lull in thread activity or sales. *That's fine. *I just disagree with the suggestion that NTH is somehow skirting in a lower, more affordable price level than Christopher Ward. Looking at it from inside the EU, no, that's not the case at all. Choosing between CW C65s and NTH subs is very, very much a one-or-the-other choice without much meaningful price separation.

Now, if someone wanted to match up the subs against, idk, an Oris Divers 65, then obviously the subs are significantly better value, and as a whole avoiding direct competition with Oris (even though offering basically as much or more in practice).

But, honestly doc, if you think that NTH is priced to not compete with Christopher Ward, then - _I'm just saying, as a customer / buyer who even very recently went through this whole choice thing again_ - in the EU, CW's divers are directly competing with NTH divers on pretty even price-footing. I get that across the ocean, the prices may stack up differently. Just, please realize, for us a new NTH sub is a $830 watch.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

P.S. And I'm writing this while wearing my new (used) 'cuda. I very much appreciate the subs, and what NTH has done to shape the microbrand trends (and possibly more).
I'm just also keenly aware of how much it costs to get a sub here, and what could have been gotten in its place.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

Both my CW and NTH we’re purchased used, priced very closely to one another.
New, I agree that if you’re shopping one you’re probably shopping the other which means you’re probably also shopping Glycine, Oris, etc. The CW to me seems a slightly “nicer” watch, dressier, the finishing, the presentation. Having said that the NTH is on my wrist. It seems more “Me” than a shiny British/Swiss watch. Now there's an intangible one cannot quantify in marketing!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

A few of you saying you've got an NTH on today.

Me too! Today, the "Azuauro", yesterday was the "BarraKuna".


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

I have mine on today!









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm not your typical buyer, I guess. I don't shop CW divers and I don't shop the more popular NTH models. 

In the CW lineup, probably the most attractive watches to me are the retro GMT and diver models. But there's always something off on the GMTs, same with that hand-wind diver model they do. Otherwise, the thin hand wind dress and jump-hour watches are cool, but again, just miss the mark with me. 

The only NTH I own is a Scorpene, and really, it's that or a too-large Sinn. Or a Spork for more money, less spec, and too large. Or a modded Seiko variant. But nothing from CW, except maybe their B&R homage GMT watches. Which have their own problems. 

But then again, I live in the US, so an NTH does have a pricing advantage, as well. 'Murica!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> _shrug_ compare used prices across the board then. NTH and CW will be on the same level again.
> 
> I'm just making a point here that NTH watches *already are* in direct competition with ChrisWard watches, both based on "buy from brand" (including full 5 year warranty, 2 month return-after-purchase-if-unhappy) and "buy 2nd hand used" (wus or ebay) lines. I've bought 2 CW's as "nearly new" and tbh they were as good as new. I guess this may vary from specific piece to piece, but it's definitely not nearly the same level as what you'd get from a used watch on WUS.
> 
> ...


In case it needs to be said, I didn't take offense at your previous post, or the comparison in it.

If you want to look at used prices, okay, do that. Considering all the $hlt-talking online, about how "micros just don't hold their value", I'd consider it a win for NTH, if a CW that sold for ~$900 when the Subs were well under $700 now sells for about the same price as a used NTH Sub of roughly the same age.

Not looking to take any shots at CW here, but if that's the norm, take their resale value up with CW, and leave me alone about NTH's (that is, if you don't feel like congratulating me for doing a decent job looking after the resale value).

Are the used prices comparable? Honestly, I've never looked. But looking now, NTH Subs seem to be going for $475-$625. CW Tridents (on bracelets) seem to be going for at least $625, typically, with rare exceptions below that line. In either case, it seems like used values are around 20% under what the watches sold for, new, which seems about right, IMO.

Don't misunderstand me - I'm VERY aware of what CW sells, and what they charge for it, and I fully realize that when my prices start creeping closer to theirs, I may be entering the danger zone. I like to see at least a $200 difference between the most closely comparable models. Given today's price of $965 for the C60, the 2K1's price of $725 gives me the cushion I want, and then some.

Look - I think CW's are a very fair bargain, given their quality, their specs, their features, their intangibles, etc. You won't see or hear me knocking them, and I try not to get put into a position where I have to defend NTH because someone wanted to compare to CW. How many times have I said, "if you like the CW better, go buy it"?

And that, right there, goes directly to your point. I fully understand that for anyone who may be considering an NTH and/or a CW, the choice is likely one or the other, not both, but I've long thought that was true for most watch enthusiasts, across a much broader price range.

TRUE STORY - it was in a private conversation with none other than Ric Capucho, about 7 years ago, in which we were discussing long-term strategy, and how pricing factored into it, when Ric made the point that most guys buying watches have wives who are more attuned to the number of packages being delivered than the amount of money being spent.

It was Ric's theory that regardless of how much a watch costs, or what a guy might let himself spend (or get away with spending) on watches in a year, he had to avoid the appearance of getting *too many* watches more than the appearance of spending *too much* on watches.

Ric said (not a direct quote, but the gist of it was), "if a guy is only going to buy one or two, maybe three watches from you in a year, or ever, it makes more sense to produce a watch that warrants a higher price, rather than a watch that doesn't."

Sound familiar? I think Ric was spot-on with his analysis, and that insight helped shape some of my thinking since then.

His ramblings about drunken escapades and nearly paralyzing Swiss rail commuters, not so much.

I get that a guy might compare a new NTH to a new CW. I want that comparison to be made harder by having a larger price difference, when we can get it. That's why I frequently look at CW's prices, and when I do, I sincerely say I don't know how they do it. Because I know I couldn't make a "Swiss Made" watch as good as the C60 and charge less than $1k for it. No way.

As for the price increase caused by the VAT - take it up with your local authorities. And if you're going to tell me that the Subs are 20% more because of VAT, at least be reasonable enough to admit and acknowledge that any CW is also 20% more because of it, unless you're in the position to take advantage of some sort of currency rate arbitrage.

That $965 price is EX-VAT, not including VAT. With the VAT added, the CW is closer to $1200 than it is to the Subs' price, whatever price you want to mentally associate with it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a separate topic---

We FINALLY were able to add the v.2 DevilRay bracelet, spare links for that bracelet, and a bunch more 40mm Subs bezel inserts to the Accessories section of the website. For those who've been waiting, now's your chance.









Accessories


Be sure to check out our RedBubble Store for a wide range of customizable apparel!




nthwatches.com


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> That's why I frequently look at CW's prices, and when I do, I sincerely say I don't know how they do it.


Tbh, same here. I picked up their just-got-discontinued 595 dress watch, with the eta 7001 movement, and a Staib-equivalent "german mesh" bracelet, under 6mm thin, for $440 (well, £340). They must have taken a loss on it, considering how much a similar piece, from Zelos, with less effort in thinness, costs with preorder discounts...

In a way, maybe that speaks to a point that you've also mentioned lately - the importance of not keeping too much stock on shelves for a long time. CW seem to be more willing to do (whatever it takes) to shift the slower-moving stuff, and move out all the older models whenever any updates or changes to a model line (or branding) occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Tbh, same here. I picked up their just-got-discontinued 595 dress watch, with the eta 7001 movement, and a Staib-equivalent "german mesh" bracelet, under 6mm thin, for $440 (well, £340). They must have taken a loss on it, considering how much a similar piece, from Zelos, with less effort in thinness, costs with preorder discounts...
> 
> In a way, maybe that speaks to a point that you've also mentioned lately - the importance of not keeping too much stock on shelves for a long time. CW seem to be more willing to do (whatever it takes) to shift the slower-moving stuff, and move out all the older models whenever any updates or changes to a model line (or branding) occur.


Looking at CW's moves over the last few years, I honestly have no real clue what they're doing, ever, or why. I can only speculate, taking into account what I've seen or heard about outside investors (and knowing what expectations they typically bring with them), the departure of the founder, the changes in brand marks and styling, the increase in prices, etc.

This is going to sound incredibly arrogant, but here it is - I think most brands, large and small, are just terribly run. There's clearly a disconnect between management thinking and market reality, which often leads to a mismatch between supply and demand, resulting in reckless discounting or "artificial shortages", and inevitably, damage to the brand.

Unlike what appears to happen throughout the rest of the industry - when I make a mistake, I blame myself, I get angry at myself, and I try to learn from it. I can't pat myself on the back and reward myself if the business suffers due to some boneheaded decision I made. There's no promotion from my position to a better one. I'm already at the top of the organization. Success is a win for the team, but I own every failure by myself.

Is what CW has been doing working? I can't say, and I honestly haven't observed enough to even speculate about the state of affairs within the company. I only know that they do a lot of things I don't and wouldn't do, because I see them as being counter-productive, and would expect adverse consequences.

There are a lot of challenges faced by many, if not most businesses in this industry. I try my best to steer my business to avoid as many as we can, which means I have to stay laser focused on the fundamentals - aligning product development and production with pricing and our sales pace.

I've spent the last 8 years looking for short-cuts to faster growth, and have yet to find any.


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## jkpa (Feb 8, 2014)

I got an email this morning from CW about the C60 specifically as they have a contest going on. It said that they had sold enough C60s since its 2009 launch to put one on each person in a full Yankee Stadium. Google says capacity is 54000+ at that stadium. That is a LOT of watches.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

This is some fascinating insight - Thanks Doc!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jkpa said:


> I got an email this morning from CW about the C60 specifically as they have a contest going on. It said that they had sold enough C60s since its 2009 launch to put one on each person in a full Yankee Stadium. Google says capacity is 54000+ at that stadium. That is a LOT of watches.


It is indeed. That would mean they averaged about 5,000 per year, of just that one model.

It might be true, and if so, my hat's off to them. I've yet to sell 5000 total, in any year.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I was going to order a v1 sub clasp when a certain bezel insert was back in stock. Now, bezel insert is available, but v1 clasp...? Not so much. I know, I know, order now, don't wait...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> I feel the same way. They recently had a half-off sale on selected models, and one of them was the blue C65 GMT. I had always admired the clasp, but when it came time to actually spend the money I couldn't bring myself to like it enough...
> 
> FWIW, there's always another brand with "something similar" for less money. Personally, I like the Glycines better than Chr Ward. And the NTH sub on BoP...


I own something like eight or nine Chris Ward straps, but I've never bought a watch from them. Like several folks here have mentioned, there's always some little thing that isn't quite right, and when the price of a watch starts with at least an $8, I'm not going to settle, when there are plenty of other watches that don't bother me because of this or that.

I'm not at all surprised by the Noble's price, considering where Monta is positioning themselves and what their other watches go for. That handset is uh....er....something. I'm not really sure why folks complain about their pricing. Monta's resale is quite good. Their divers are typically offered for maybe a couple hundred less than new. Compare that to an Oris which isn't as well made, uses an unadjusted SW200 instead of a SW300, and loses HALF it's value new to used.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I own something like eight or nine Chris Ward straps, but I've never bought a watch from them. Like several folks here have mentioned, there's always some little thing that isn't quite right, and when the price of a watch starts with at least an $8, I'm not going to settle, when there are plenty of other watches that don't bother me because of this or that.
> 
> I'm not at all surprised by the Noble's price, considering where Monta is positioning themselves and what their other watches go for. That handset is uh....er....something. I'm not really sure why folks complain about their pricing. Monta's resale is quite good. Their divers are typically offered for maybe a couple hundred less than new. Compare that to an Oris which isn't as well made, uses an unadjusted SW200 instead of a SW300, and loses HALF it's value new to used.


I think the people who complain aren't looking at the resale, because they're not planning to sell. Resale doesn't factor into it for them, rightfully so, and so it should be with all purchasing decisions.

Watches aren't cars. If you're going into a watch purchase already thinking about selling it, I question why you're even buying it.

Regardless, many of the people who complain about Monta's price, particularly those whose complaints are knee-jerk, with no consideration for Monta's quality, nor their likely production costs, are the same folks who think that no microbrand should ever cost more than $500.

In other words, they're cretins. Troglodytes. Uninitiated, uninformed, unwashed, uncouth.

I'm not being sarcastic. I think Monta's quality is excellent, and I've some inkling of their costs, which makes me think their prices are actually a reasonable bargain.

When anyone looks at the price, by itself, and questions it, with no further investigation, it doesn't even warrant a response, IMO. What's to say to someone who knows nothing more than "not a major brand" and "costs $X" when they decide the price is too high?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I know, I know, order now, don't wait...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I think the people who complain aren't looking at the resale, because they're not planning to sell. Resale doesn't factor into it for them, rightfully so, and so it should be with all purchasing decisions.
> 
> Watches aren't cars. If you're going into a watch purchase already thinking about selling it, I question why you're even buying it.


The reason I brought up resale isn't necessarily about flipping. I agree that if you're buying a watch with a significant possibility of selling it, you may want to re-think your purchase. Resale however I think is a good indicator of "what does the general watch buying public think x or y watch is worth?" vs. what the company decides is the retail price.

Cases of very limited supply like Halios or Rolex can throw that off, but Monta OKs aren't limited, and you can usually buy a new one whenever you want. It is worth mentioning though that their prices have recently gone up significantly, with the basic 3-hand OK now at $2150, basically matching the Aquis' AD MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that an OK was $1800 or so. From what I've seen, used prices haven't yet caught up to that, and it'll be interesting to see if they do.

The overall point was that based on resale prices, the market seemed to indicate that the OK was priced fairly, whereas Oris Aquis resale prices indicate that the market sees that watch as overpriced.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Considering where the price point for the brand new Monta OK 1 was originally offered at complete with a brand new with no track history movement and the overhyped marketing of all the design elements of a new case designed specifically for the movement and the diamond cut polished hands, yada yada yada, they have come down to a more reasonable pricing for some reasonably good quality elements.

I like the design of the Noble but it looks like a revamp of the Triumph based on specs of the case. So is it nothing more than an updated dial and set of hands to the Triumph case? The M-22 movement is nothing more than a polished up Sellita.

You can get a COSC watch from CW for a lot less.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

... I don't really "get" Monta, but tbh i haven't handled one in person. So, cannot say whether its justified or not. It's firmly in the mindspace of "it feels too expensive tho" for me.

Then again, I am also heavily biased (or prejudiced) against Monta due to them taking more than a year to fix the misaligned date window frames on their divers, all the while denying that there was any issue (though it was front and center visible in user photos, promo shots, storephotos, blog previews etc). Still see a bunch of Oceankings posted on WUS with those misaligned windows - so seeing that, and yet hearing the owners gush about the high quality, makes me very distrustful of any other claims about Monta's quality...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Kind of like the misaligned chapter rings on Seiko divers. Its a known known. But im a deal shopper, so finding an OK1 at a third of initial offering was ok for me. Their bracelet is what makes the watch in my humble opinion.


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## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Hey Chris, long time not lurking around here.

So I saw an Instagram post with a full lumed dial in the sort of the old Phantom, coming on October.

Si here's the two obligatory questions:

1) Any tips on getting it DLC coated?, because I will.
2) Is there a way to buy a 24 hours bezel from you through Serious Watches?, honestly I'd rather have someone else deal with imports and I'll buy the watch from them anyway.

Congratulations on the good work, hope your brand and business keep growing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## watchnut69 (Dec 24, 2014)

'Regardless, many of the people who complain about Monta's price, particularly those whose complaints are knee-jerk, with no consideration for Monta's quality, nor their likely production costs, are the same folks who think that no microbrand should ever cost more than $500.

In other words, they're cretins. Troglodytes. Uninitiated, uninformed, unwashed, uncouth.'

This seems uncharacteristically restrained Chris!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> A few of you saying you've got an NTH on today.
> 
> Me too! Today, the "Azuauro", yesterday was the "BarraKuna".
> View attachment 15409377


Lots to look at there. Design and coloring of dial, hands, bezel. Plus the bracelet. Bass, mid, treble all maxed out on the NTH equalizer.  Would be fun to see the "Azuauro" in person.

At the other end of the spectrum, Nacken Vintage Blue's only real flourish is some dial texture. And somehow it also manages to be big fun to look at. (Pardon the recycled photo, wearing a different Sub today.)


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Lots to look at there. Design and coloring of dial, hands, bezel. Plus the bracelet. Bass, mid, treble all maxed out on the NTH equalizer.  Would be fun to see the "Azuauro" in person.
> 
> At the other end of the spectrum, Nacken Vintage Blue's only real flourish is some dial texture. And somehow it also manages to be big fun to look at. (Pardon the recycled photo, wearing a different Sub today.)
> 
> View attachment 15411452


I'd say its maxed out on a standard scale. But to really max it out to Spinal Tap Levels of 11, it goes on the R/W/B NATO.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Hey Chris, long time not lurking around here.
> 
> So I saw an Instagram post with a full lumed dial in the sort of the old Phantom, coming on October.
> 
> ...


Hey mate. Why such a stranger?

We're making some (5) with DLC cases, so the best way to get one would be to buy one. And the best way to make sure you get one of those is to get on one of our retailers wait lists, now.

You can't get the inserts from Serious, but you can get them from me. My site has 1 of the Scorpène Nomad inserts available now, and a few of the Catalina inserts.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchnut69 said:


> 'Regardless, many of the people who complain about Monta's price, particularly those whose complaints are knee-jerk, with no consideration for Monta's quality, nor their likely production costs, are the same folks who think that no microbrand should ever cost more than $500.
> 
> In other words, they're cretins. Troglodytes. Uninitiated, uninformed, unwashed, uncouth.'
> 
> This seems uncharacteristically restrained Chris!


I had a bunch of unused vocab of the month words and needed to use them before they expired.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> ... I don't really "get" Monta, but tbh i haven't handled one in person. So, cannot say whether its justified or not. It's firmly in the mindspace of "it feels too expensive tho" for me.
> 
> Then again, I am also heavily biased (or prejudiced) against Monta due to them taking more than a year to fix the misaligned date window frames on their divers, all the while denying that there was any issue (though it was front and center visible in user photos, promo shots, storephotos, blog previews etc). Still see a bunch of Oceankings posted on WUS with those misaligned windows - so seeing that, and yet hearing the owners gush about the high quality, makes me very distrustful of any other claims about Monta's quality...


Well, I just pre-ordered their new Noble (blue). looks absolutely stunning and I can't wait to get it and see the attention to detail it appears to provide.

Sent from my kukui using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

If I was spending that kind of money, Monta would be in the running, for sure. But that's outta my league and I have never handled one IRL. By all accounts, the Triumph is a nice watch and the Noble... well, I'm glad it's not a decision I have to fret about.

Right now, it's more: Teléios or Pelion...?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> If I was spending that kind of money, Monta would be in the running, for sure. But that's outta my league and I have never handled one IRL. By all accounts, the Triumph is a nice watch and the Noble... well, I'm glad it's not a decision I have to fret about.
> 
> Right now, it's more: Teleion or Pelion...?


If it was me, Téleios all the way.

But then again, I live in Texas, I hate Snowflakes.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

You're always better off with a factory DLC watch than trying to have that done yourself. Beadblasting isn't expensive to do at all, cerakoting is quite a bit more, and I don't really love the "rough" finish that cerakoted watches have. DLC coating though is _insanely _expensive. If you wanted to have a steel NTH watch DLC coated, you'd probably be looking at more than the cost of the watch to have it done.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> You're always better off with a factory DLC watch than trying to have that done yourself. Beadblasting isn't expensive to do at all, cerakoting is quite a bit more, and I don't really love the "rough" finish that cerakoted watches have. DLC coating though is _insanely _expensive. If you wanted to have a steel NTH watch DLC coated, you'd probably be looking at more than the cost of the watch to have it done.


I have absolutely _zero_ experience with a cerakoted watch, but in my experience in knives, a good cerakote application is never rough. It has a texture to it, yes, but rough, not at all. in fact, the texture can be incredibly smooth.

I'm interested in which watch your referring to?


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## mckey (Feb 27, 2013)

This is a brand that was never in my radar... But it is now. Awesome thread of photos!


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I have absolutely _zero_ experience with a cerakoted watch, but in my experience in knives, a good cerakote application is never rough. It has a texture to it, yes, but rough, not at all. in fact, the texture can be incredibly smooth.
> 
> I'm interested in which watch your referring to?


Perhaps it depends on the application. I've seen several that look like this, and don't appear smooth at all.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah, most cerakoted watches I've seen (in images) appear pretty lumpy...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah, most cerakoted watches I've seen (in images) appear pretty lumpy...


I've gotta agree, those look pretty rough. I guess as is the case with most material coatings, application is everything.

Heres an example of what a good cerakote can look like.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> Sorry to disappoint. It's a topic I've WOT'd before.
> 
> Yes, I just turned WOT into a verb. Deal with it.
> 
> ...


You should write a basic "how business works" WOT that can be stickied for as many times as you've had to explain these same concepts.

Back when I was in school ... and I'm only in my early 50's ... business concepts were something taught at the HS level, along with civics, home economics and some type of shop.

As I now have HS and older kids, I know we've moved away from teaching this things, to our own detriment.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> You should write a basic "how business works" WOT that can be stickied for as many times as you've had to explain these same concepts.
> 
> Back when I was in school ... and I'm only in my early 50's ... business concepts were something taught at the HS level, along with civics, home economics and some type of shop.
> 
> As I now have HS and older kids, I know we've moved away from teaching this things, to our own detriment.


Most of the arguments I get sucked into, especially with other brand owners, are about "how business works". It's amazing to me how often someone can be so certain they know while so clearly demonstrating they don't.

There's a brand owner who currently owes my vendor $25k, for some time, and has been unresponsive recently. With each passing day, it seems less likely my vendor will be paid that money.

Without relating all the details, it's a brand that's sold a lot of watches, but at low prices. I told this brand owner, early on, like, at least 3 years ago, that he wasn't charging enough, and that it would lead to problems sooner or later.

What's ironic is that one of my friends pointed out how well the other brand seemed to be doing, within the context of trying to make the case I should do something similar. It can be challenging sometimes, to maintain my patience, knowing that I'm right, but only time will prove it.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> Most of the arguments I get sucked into, especially with other brand owners, are about "how business works". It's amazing to me how often someone can be so certain they know while so clearly demonstrating they don't.
> 
> There's a brand owner who currently owes my vendor $25k, for some time, and has been unresponsive recently. With each passing day, it seems less likely my vendor will be paid that money.
> 
> ...


And that's one thing the armchair business owners spouting advice in these comparison threads never know - how well the company they're comparing to is actually doing.

It's always easy to say "x" is selling stuff cheaper, without knowing if "x" is actually paying its bills. People always think that a company must be doing fine because they're still in business ... until they're not. And it's really hard to turn around a sinking ship.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a separate topic - mark this date on your calendars, because I was wrong, and I'm admitting it. Very, very, so very incredibly wrong.

Rusty sent me one of the Atticus prototypes to check out, the Icarus.

Because I'd previously owned a 38mm diameter, Explorer-style watch before, and remember how tiny it seemed, I was convinced 38mm was just too small for me, and for a lot of guys. When Rusty started talking about Atticus, he wanted to make the watch 36mm, but I thought he'd have trouble selling the watches if were less than 39mm/40mm. I exerted all my influence to get him to make the Atticus models bigger, but couldn't get him to budge above 38mm. I remained convinced that would be too small.

Well, I got the watch yesterday, and I have to admit, I was wrong about 38mm. This thing is SWEET. 

Yes, I know, he's my buddy, and I'm motivated to say anything to help his brand successfully launch, and you can take everything I'm saying with as much salt as you want. I'm still saying it, and it's as straight-up as I've ever been, this thing is the perfect size for its style.

There's a thunderstorm happening outside right now, and my indoor pics eat monkey balls, so I'm not going to post pics now. But I'll post some as soon as the weather clears up, including some side-by-sides with some other watches in my collection.

I was on the fence about getting one of these. But now, I can't wait to get one for my own collection.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> On a separate topic - mark this date on your calendars, because I was wrong, and I'm admitting it. Very, very, so very incredibly wrong.
> 
> Rusty sent me one of the Atticus prototypes to check out, the Icarus.
> 
> ...


36 I think would be a tough sell, but 38 makes a lot of sense for that style of watch. The very similar Sinn 556 I is 38.5, and they don't have any trouble moving those. I like the lug profile on the Atticus better than the Sinn, I think it works better with the bracelet.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> When Rusty started talking about Atticus, he wanted to make the watch 36mm, but I thought he'd have trouble selling the watches if were less than 39mm/40mm. I exerted all my influence to get him to make the Atticus models bigger, but couldn't get him to budge above 38mm.


Funny thing... over in the Atticus thread, or on FB, I was all, "Man, I would have preferred a 36mm size on these."

Now I know who to blame: that jerk Docvail. THANKS DOCVAIL!!!1!1!!!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Funny thing... over in the Atticus thread, or on FB, I was all, "Man, I would have preferred a 36mm size on these."
> 
> Now I know who to blame: that jerk Docvail. THANKS DOCVAIL!!!1!1!!!


It's always Vails fault. Always.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> 36 I think would be a tough sell, but 38 makes a lot of sense for that style of watch. The very similar Sinn 556 I is 38.5, and they don't have any trouble moving those. I like the lug profile on the Atticus better than the Sinn, I think it works better with the bracelet.


Probably 38mm was the better business decision. Although [company name redacted] doesn't seem to have any problem moving all the 36mm watches they can make. Even if their order window is 3 minutes every full moon which lands on an even date...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Well the country that [company name redacted] operates out of does have, in my humble opinion, smaller, softer and much more genteel peoples than us here stateside.

No offense meant to you smaller wristed folks meant.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Funny thing... over in the Atticus thread, or on FB, I was all, "Man, I would have preferred a 36mm size on these."
> 
> Now I know who to blame: that jerk Docvail. THANKS DOCVAIL!!!1!1!!!


Yer welcome.



TheBearded said:


> It's always Vails fault. Always.


Pretty much, and I'm okay with that.



mconlonx said:


> Probably 38mm was the better business decision. Although [company name redacted] doesn't seem to have any problem moving all the 36mm watches they can make. Even if their order window is 3 minutes every full moon which lands on an even date...


The argument I made to Rusty was almost entirely about the business side of it. I am capable of setting aside my own preferences for such discussions (though apparently not my memories from owning a 38mm back in 2014 - my guess is I've just gotten more used to smaller watches since then, without realizing it when we were debating).

My calculus is / was basically this - once you go under 40mm, there are a lot of guys who just stop paying attention, and don't think about how the watch wears or its design. The further below 40mm you go, the more guys you lose.

Yes, I understand (and @hwa wouldn't stop pointing out) that Rolex makes and sells a metric $hlt-ton of 36mm Explorers, but Atticus ain't Rolex, and the consensus within the inner-circle of guys debating it was that 38mm was probably the best compromise, all things considered.

I don't know what it is about the 39mm Tag Carrera calibre 5 that makes me think it needs to be larger, but the last time I tried one on (maybe 2-3 years ago), that's what I thought.

Anyhoo, I think Rusty nailed this one. The case design is outstanding, as are the little decisions he made, like the polished bezel, and 20mm-16mm tapering bracelet.

Y'all can thank me for not letting him choose a minute hand that would have been too short. He really fought me on that one, but eventually saw the light (after I held him down, taped his eyelids open, and shined it directly into his pupils). The hands I browbeat him into using are perfect.

It's got a bit of Omega AT or Railmaster feel to it, if I'm being honest. I know the most obvious comparison for the Icarus is to the Sinn 556i (with hands that actually are too short), but the Sinn seems so much more toolish to me, I think because of the brushed bezel, crown guards, and more pronounced crown.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

The short Sinn hands make more sense on the 556A - with the big numbers that extend further inboard than the stick indexes - than they do with the 556i. But the hands are too skinny on both, so...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> The short Sinn hands make more sense on the 556A - with the big numbers that extend further inboard than the stick indexes - than they do with the 556i. But the hands are too skinny on both, so...


Honestly, I think all the hands are too short, but of the three, it's least noticeable with the hour hand, and less noticeable on the 556a than the 556i.

The hour hand is just barely long enough to touch the numbers, but it would be okay if it was longer. The minute hand is way too far from the minute markers, and the seconds hand looks like it barely reaches them.

With our vendors, they limit the length of the seconds hand we can use, to keep at least a 0.5mm clearance between its tip and the inner case wall. I just sized this image down to 1:1, so I could measure their clearance. It's almost 2mm (~1.9mm).

I mean - People talk about German engineering and precision, right? I'm just sayin'...they're giving themselves almost 4 times the margin we're getting.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> With our vendors, they limit the length of the seconds hand we can use, to keep at least a 0.5mm clearance between its tip and the inner case wall.


In case anyone is wondering why...

The dial-movement assembly sits in a metal spacer within the case. In order to get that spacer to fit in the case, there's a 0.5mm difference between the diameter of the opening in the case, and the diameter of that spacer, leaving 0.25mm gap all around.

In theory, the crown stem and case clamps keep it all from shifting around, and ensure it's all 100% perfectly centered and aligned inside the case. In reality, it's possible the entire assembly can be slightly shifted up-down or side-to-side, or slightly twisted when it's all put together. So, the smaller the clearance, the less margin for error there is, and the less likely you are to notice that your dial doesn't seem centered or correctly aligned within the case.

Keeping the seconds hand 0.5mm shorter than the radius of the inner case wall ensures that even if the entire assembly shifts all the way to one side (a 0.25mm shift), there's still going to be 0.25mm clearance for the hand, to keep it from dragging along the case wall.


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## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Hey mate. Why such a stranger?
> 
> We're making some (5) with DLC cases, so the best way to get one would be to buy one. And the best way to make sure you get one of those is to get on one of our retailers wait lists, now.
> 
> ...


Well, I suppose I brace myself for Spanish customs then. Then there's the obliged question: can I have a 24 hour bezel doc coated?

Can I buy a DLC coated in advance?, I mean, I've been bugging you for this watch since forever and I'm afraid that time difference shenanigans would prevent me from getting it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Well, I suppose I brace myself for Spanish customs then. Then there's the obliged question: can I have a 24 hour bezel doc coated?
> 
> Can I buy a DLC coated in advance?, I mean, I've been bugging you for this watch since forever and I'm afraid that time difference shenanigans would prevent me from getting it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There won't be a 24 hour hour bezel, because there's no point, with a non-GMT or 24-hour movement.

There are 12 hour bezels, and in the case of the Scorpene Nomad and Catalina inserts, they're both DLC coated, just like most of our inserts. Feel free to buy one, now, if you like.

We won't be doing the swap for you, but the instructions on the bezel insert product page are...well, I was about to say "idiot-proof", but at least one guy already seemed to disprove that, so I'll just say they're easy enough to follow.

Can you buy a DLC watch in advance? Look, believe me, I want nothing more than to shut up and take your money, right now, if you're willing to give it to me, but I can't (won't, pick one).

Pre-orders are a necessary evil for many brands, but thankfully, they're not necessary for me any more. I don't like taking anyone's money now, in advance of having a product we can ship the next business day. I know that Murphy's law will bite me in the a$$ if I do that, and we'll have more / longer delays, and I'll owe delivery updates to everyone who pre-ordered.

Just shoot an email to Kaj at Seriou Watches in the EU ([email protected]) or John at Watch Gauge ([email protected]), and tell them you'll happily kill a pygmy to own one, so please add you to their wait-list. I asked them not to take any pre-orders or deposits, but I know they've both started a wait list for the upcoming releases.

I'm pretty sure we ordered extra DLC cases / bracelets, in the event that we underestimated demand for something. If not, I'm sure we'll be making more in future production runs, so there's the possibility we might assemble more if something sells out more quickly than expected. We may only be assembling 25 of the Scorpène White for October, but we had to order 50 dials, so...odds are we'll assemble at least 25 more at some point in the future.

The thing with the DLC versions is that they're going to be $50 more than the stainless, and all the stainless models are going to be $700. We're starting to approach that $800-and-up price range I've tried to stay under, even as my costs have been going up. When we made DLC versions of the Phantom, we made too many, so I wanted to be more conservative this time, which is why we're only making 5 DLC per version.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Well, I suppose I brace myself for Spanish customs then. Then there's the obliged question: can I have a 24 hour bezel doc coated?
> 
> Can I buy a DLC coated in advance?, I mean, I've been bugging you for this watch since forever and I'm afraid that time difference shenanigans would prevent me from getting it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


By the way, this is what we're talking about, right?


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## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> By the way, this is what we're talking about, right?
> 
> View attachment 15413193
> 
> ...


Yes! That's the ****! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> There won't be a 24 hour hour bezel, because there's no point, with a non-GMT or 24-hour movement.
> 
> There are 12 hour bezels, and in the case of the Scorpene Nomad and Catalina inserts, they're both DLC coated, just like most of our inserts. Feel free to buy one, now, if you like.
> 
> ...


I meant 12 hour bezel, it's 2:32 in my neck of the woods and mistyped, my apologies.

Ugh, sometimes I hate being a fan of micros, between you not taking my money in advance and Halios playing the Rolex game I'll grow gray hair.

Anyway, I'll drop the email or stalk your site, hope I can eventually buy one.

I'll drop from the forums again before I find another comment on how a watch must have 600 meters water resistance, being fully customizable, have a lume that lasts 24 hours, have a Grand Seiko finish and cost 200 €

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I meant 12 hour bezel, it's 2:32 in my neck of the woods and mistyped, my apologies.
> 
> Ugh, sometimes I hate being a fan of micros, between you not taking my money in advance and Halios playing the Rolex game I'll grow gray hair.
> 
> ...


If it helps, Serious is in the EU, and ships free, which should save you some pesos compared to ordering from my site. You'll have to pay VAT, but you'll get free shipping, and avoid that nasty customs brokerage fee FedEx likes to add on.

As for finding that comment, I'm sure I could find one just like it if I felt like searching the forum a while. Seems like lunacy and forums go together like Clintons and suicides.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just in case anyone wants to complain about the $50 premium for the DLC version, IWW charges $895 to do it. Add another $495 if you want the bracelet done too. From what I've seen, that's pretty standard pricing.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Honestly, I was shocked when I saw there was only a $50 hike.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Just in case anyone wants to complain about the $50 premium for the DLC version, IWW charges $895 to do it. Add another $495 if you want the bracelet done too. From what I've seen, that's pretty standard pricing.


Who is IWW, and what the hell are they putting in the DLC that makes it cost $895???

The thing about bracelets - if you don't completely disassemble it first, the DLC doesn't get all the way in between the links. Ours is going to have all the links coated first, before the bracelet is assembled.



TheBearded said:


> Honestly, I was shocked when I saw there was only a $50 hike.


More or less shocked than when JLS said the 2K1's were expensive?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Who is IWW, and what the hell are they putting in the DLC that makes it cost $895???


International Watch Works. https://www.internationalwatchworks.com/dlcpvd

As I mentioned, this isn't abnormal at all - DLC Coating Service Watches | Garrick | English Watchmakers

There are very few watchmakers that do it, and those that do will charge you an absolute fortune.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sharing just because I was amused by this. Megabuck Rolex Rootbeer GMT-Master II, complete with noisy rotor, wobbly bezel, and a _misaligned chapter ring. _Swiss luxury at its finest.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I meant 12 hour bezel, it's 2:32 in my neck of the woods and mistyped, my apologies.
> 
> Ugh, sometimes I hate being a fan of micros, between you not taking my money in advance and Halios playing the Rolex game I'll grow gray hair.
> 
> Anyway, I'll drop the email or stalk your site, hope I can eventually buy one.


As Doc noted, you can get a 12hr bezel insert from the NTH site. Scorpene Nomad or Catalina if ypu want to stick with black, also the Vanguard (blue).and Amphion Commando (stainless/silver) if you want to mix up a bit.



docvail said:


> If it helps, Serious is in the EU, and ships free, which should save you some pesos compared to ordering from my site. You'll have to pay VAT, but you'll get free shipping, and avoid that nasty customs brokerage fee FedEx likes to add on.


Not sure how Serious works, but I got on a wait list over at WatchGauge for a different model. I didn't notice a DLC version of the lume-dial Scorpene over there, though.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> More or less shocked than when JLS said the 2K1's were expensive?


Oh much less, tbh. _That_ was totally expected.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Morning sunshine!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Who is IWW, and what the hell are they putting in the DLC that makes it cost $895???
> 
> The thing about bracelets - if you don't completely disassemble it first, the DLC doesn't get all the way in between the links. Ours is going to have all the links coated first, before the bracelet is assembled.
> 
> More or less shocked than when JLS said the 2K1's were expensive?


That made me laugh Ty

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Honestly, I think all the hands are too short, but of the three, it's least noticeable with the hour hand, and less noticeable on the 556a than the 556i.
> 
> The hour hand is just barely long enough to touch the numbers, but it would be okay if it was longer. The minute hand is way too far from the minute markers, and the seconds hand looks like it barely reaches them.
> 
> ...


TBH, I sold my 556A when I picked up a Scorpene. And I had a modded SNK809 that I think did the Sinn Big Numbers/aviator design better, too. Sinn remains the archetype of the design (probably they picked it up from elsewhere, too...), but I think others have done it better, since. May just be my imagination or optical illusion, but with the Scorpene, the smaller dial seems more crowded, and makes the numbers appear larger, which also appeals to me.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Sharing just because I was amused by this. Megabuck Rolex Rootbeer GMT-Master II, complete with noisy rotor, wobbly bezel, and a _misaligned chapter ring. _Swiss luxury at its finest.


I just watched this and thought bezel insert was misaligned on his example and on the stock pic he showed. Not sure how you properly align that chapter ring.
Then i googled this "issue" and long behold there are complaints and pics on forums of subs with misaligned inserts. 
Some were even told that its within tolerances.
Just another reminder on how good NTH tolerances and QC is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> International Watch Works. https://www.internationalwatchworks.com/dlcpvd
> 
> As I mentioned, this isn't abnormal at all - DLC Coating Service Watches | Garrick | English Watchmakers
> 
> There are very few watchmakers that do it, and those that do will charge you an absolute fortune.


I didn't see any price listed on IWW's site, but I'll take your word on it, considering that it appears Garrick in the UK is charging ~$1400 (including 20% VAT), which is amazing to me.

I know PVD plating services exist here in the states, but I've never looked into what they cost, because why would I? I can't see having all the parts shipped here from China, having them plated, then shipping them back for assembly, or doing all the assembly here (at a much higher cost). Plating them there just makes more sense, obviously.

My guess is that the plating services based outside China must be charging a lot more, and these watchmakers who provide the service are not only charging for disassembly / reassembly, but also likely marking up the cost of plating.

Charging $900-$1400 just sounds insane to me. I'm not saying they're ripping people off, just saying that compared to what I'm paying for PVD / DLC plating, it appears to be orders of magnitude more expensive.

All that said - bringing it back to the PVD / DLC versions of watches we'll be selling, my experience with the Phantom was that fewer people bought the DLC version. Whether that was because of the $25 price difference, or just fewer people wanting DLC, I can't say, but the stainless sold out a lot more quickly, which is why we'll be assembling such a small number of DLC versions of the 2K1's and upcoming 40mm Subs models.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Not sure how Serious works, but I got on a wait list over at WatchGauge for a different model. I didn't notice a DLC version of the lume-dial Scorpene over there, though.


He may not have set it up yet, which is why I suggested emailing him to make sure there's no confusion.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> TBH, I sold my 556A when I picked up a Scorpene. And I had a modded SNK809 that I think did the Sinn Big Numbers/aviator design better, too. Sinn remains the archetype of the design (probably they picked it up from elsewhere, too...), but I think others have done it better, since. May just be my imagination or optical illusion, but with the Scorpene, the smaller dial seems more crowded, and makes the numbers appear larger, which also appeals to me.


Sinn gets credit for the big-number pilot watch style, but I'd say the credit isn't entirely deserved. That style is virtually a 1:1 reproduction of cockpit clocks, to include the hands, and Copperplate font, which dates back to the 1800's.

The Scorp_è_ne's dial is more dense, due to its size (compared to the similarly styled yet larger Sinn 857), and the fact that we lumed every minute marker, which required them to be thicker than if they'd just been printed, as they are on the Sinn.

I can't remember for certain, but it's possible Aaron's original design for the Scorp_èn_e was less crowded, maybe even with smaller numbers and hour markers, but we had to modify it once our vendor showed us how the minute markers would be enlarged.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I just watched this and thought bezel insert was misaligned on his example and on the stock pic he showed. Not sure how you properly align that chapter ring.
> Then i googled this "issue" and long behold there are complaints and pics on forums of subs with misaligned inserts.
> Some were even told that its within tolerances.
> Just another reminder on how good NTH tolerances and QC is.
> ...


When we get complaints about bezel insert alignment, we usually just say it's within our standards, and leave it at that.

But, if the person complaining won't let ti go, especially if they say something like, "for what I paid, it should be PERFECT," we'll sometimes send them images showing Omegas and Rolexes with mis-aligned bezel inserts.

Some accept it at that point. Some, not so much.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Rory at JOMW posted a vid about a Rolex GMTII in stainless/rose gold... with a bezel insert that didn't align...

FWIW, I'm off lume dial watches, really prefer date versions, and am not at all attracted to DLC/PLC black watches, but damn, that new Scorpene in DLC is (as the kids say) FIRE! 💥


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Y'all can thank me for not letting him choose a minute hand that would have been too short. He really fought me on that one, but eventually saw the light (after I held him down, taped his eyelids open, and shined it directly into his pupils). The hands I browbeat him into using are perfect.


Thank you! I agree that the Icarus hands are perfect, any shorter would have been, well, _unfortunate._


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I fast-watched (skipped forward a lot) the JOMW video of the new Rolex GMT. I didn't catch the shot or the comment about the bezel being mis-aligned. It looked pretty well aligned to me. I did catch his comment about the engraving on the rehaut being obviously mis-aligned, which is unfortunate, especially considering what those watches sell for.

That's not to say I don't believe the bezel wasn't perfectly aligned. There are plenty of mis-aligned Rolex bezels just a Google image search away.

I do find it curious that Rolex went for a 24-click bezel, knowing that there are some time zones that are offset by 30 or even 15 minutes. A 48 or 96-click bezel would seem like the "correct" answer there, but that's a can of worms we don't need to re-open here.

I'm sooooo happy that most of the modern Rolex models do nothing for me. I wouldn't mind having a Milgauss, but for the most part, I think Rolex's design language peaked with the 5-digit reference numbers. All the 6-digit stuff just looks like they're trying too hard, IMO.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I didn't see any price listed on IWW's site, but I'll take your word on it, considering that it appears Garrick in the UK is charging ~$1400 (including 20% VAT), which is amazing to me.
> 
> I know PVD plating services exist here in the states, but I've never looked into what they cost, because why would I? I can't see having all the parts shipped here from China, having them plated, then shipping them back for assembly, or doing all the assembly here (at a much higher cost). Plating them there just makes more sense, obviously.


They list DLC cost along with their other regular services. https://www.internationalwatchworks.com/work-orderpricing

They're one of the few that do. It's generally not easy to find a base quote for what DLC/PVD coating will cost, but I've seen $750-2000 mentioned on Bob's Watches as the going rate.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> but for the most part, I think Rolex's design language peaked with the 5-digit reference numbers. All the 6-digit stuff just looks like they're trying too hard, IMO.


Agreed 100%. The watch my dad wears most is a 5-digit Bluesy. The bracelet and clasp are absolute crap that wouldn't pass on a $500 watch these days, but the watch itself is very nice. Putting a 6-digit next to it, the new version looks like it's been pumped full of steroids and HGH. I don't like the new SMP for the same reason (that and I think the "wave" dial looks stupid). The old SMP was a great mid-size watch. The new one is basically the same size as a Planet Ocean.

Also worth mentioning that since the old 5-digit doesn't have the engraved rehaut, it's impossible for it to be misaligned.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Still way too much text on the 5-digit dial.

Mid-50's (6200) to mid-60's (5513) was the best overall, IMO.

Cool graphic showing the evolution of the Sub here - Evolution of the Rolex Submariner | Dive Watches Blog


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## Slowphiveo (May 1, 2020)

Good evening!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Still way too much text on the 5-digit dial.
> 
> Mid-50's (6200) to mid-60's (5513) was the best overall, IMO.
> 
> Cool graphic showing the evolution of the Sub here - Evolution of the Rolex Submariner | Dive Watches Blog


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

For a lot of hard earned money, you can put your name down on a wait list at your Rolex AD. And when you get the watch six months later, it might have a wobbly bezel and a misaligned rehaut, sort of like you'd expect on a $300 Seiko.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Speaking of Seiko, wearing the SDGC009 again now that it's starting to cool off a bit. Still pleased as punch with this one.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Wearing my Amphion...Nuclear lume!























Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I've somehow managed to ding the bezel and insert up near 12. Usually, I only notice "character" when I post sale pix and find out under macro examination


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Took these pics of the Icarus today. Not the best pics, but here they are...



















Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Cool. Case/dial proportions look way better on wrist than I expected.

One thing though... why does every line of text have a different font? (atticus one font, icarus another font, automatic another font, date number yet another font)...

Edit - I suppose it's the same on the NTH subs, though. Was there a conscious decision towards that?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Took these pics of the Icarus today. Not the best pics, but here they are...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. Definitely doesn't look small in the flesh at all, in fact the dial appears significantly larger than the Scorpene's. I assume it is larger - 30-31mm, something like that?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

bolts40 said:


> Wearing my Amphion...Nuclear lume!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do love these Amphions. What bracelet are you using on that?

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> I do love these Amphions. What bracelet are you using on that?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Got the bracelet here...









20MM CUSTOM MADE OYSTER BAND GLIDE-LOCK BUCKLE BAND BRACELET FOR NTH DIVER WATCH | eBay


Lugs- 20MM Band- Brush finished Buckle- All brush finished. Flip-Lock fold over buckle. Watch not included. Made of top quality 316L stainless steel. Made to fit 40MM case.



www.ebay.com





Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Cool. Case/dial proportions look way better on wrist than I expected.
> 
> One thing though... why does every line of text have a different font? (atticus one font, icarus another font, automatic another font, date number yet another font)...
> 
> Edit - I suppose it's the same on the NTH subs, though. Was there a conscious decision towards that?


The date number font is chosen by Miyota. I wouldn't think we'd be held accountable for not matching all our other fonts to it.

You'd have to ask Rusty what font he used for "Atticus". I don't know what it is.

The "Icarus" font is Copperplate. I'm not certain, but I think "Automatic" is in the same font.

As for the NTH Subs - the NTH logo was hand-drawn, so there is no font. The rest of the dial font is all Copperplate.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Cool. Case/dial proportions look way better on wrist than I expected.





Davekaye90 said:


> Nice. Definitely doesn't look small in the flesh at all, in fact the dial appears significantly larger than the Scorpene's. I assume it is larger - 30-31mm, something like that?


The proportions are better on the wrist, much better, than I expected, when all I knew was "38mm". I hope not too many guys will rule it out because it's under 40mm.

The dial opening is 2mm larger than it is on the Subs, which helps it wear larger, and why Rusty couldn't just use all the same handsets we used on the Subs.

I don't know if this has anything to do with how either of them wears, but (fun fact) both the Subs and the Atticus watches have a sloped rehaut, which is larger at the top than it is at the bottom. I believe the added surface area of a sloped rehaut creates the illusion that the case has more interior depth.

But either way, the ~2mm wider crystal / dial helps it wear larger, more like the Subs, notwithstanding the shorter lug length.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> The proportions are better on the wrist, much better, than I expected, when all I knew was "38mm". I hope not too many guys will rule it out because it's under 40mm.
> 
> The dial opening is 2mm larger than it is on the Subs, which helps it wear larger, and why Rusty couldn't just use all the same handsets we used on the Subs.
> 
> ...


Also the endlinks


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> The proportions are better on the wrist, much better, than I expected, when all I knew was "38mm". I hope not too many guys will rule it out because it's under 40mm.
> 
> The dial opening is 2mm larger than it is on the Subs, which helps it wear larger, and *why Rusty couldn't just use all the same handsets we used on the Subs.*
> 
> But either way, the ~2mm wider crystal / dial helps it wear larger, more like the Subs, notwithstanding the shorter lug length.


Man, if only someone hadn't talked him out of doing these at 36mm...

But at 38mm, I expect these to be a raging success. No one seems to bat an eye at 39mm Rolex models and these should wear pretty close to those.

I hope that he's successful enough with them that he he can do 41 and 36mm versions in the future...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't know if this has anything to do with how either of them wears, but (fun fact) both the Subs and the Atticus watches have a sloped rehaut, which is larger at the top than it is at the bottom. I believe the added surface area of a sloped rehaut creates the illusion that the case has more interior depth.


It is interesting how much of a visual difference that can make. These two have identical 28.5mm dials, and they are both ~42mm cases. The dial on the SPB081 seems bigger though, because the more sloped chapter ring almost becomes a part of the dial. The SKX ring isn't completely vertical, but there's much less of a slope so you don't get that effect. The 081 also has a much larger crystal, and a narrower bezel as a result.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

I love the new Devil Ray bracelet. Looks better irl than in pics, much more comfortable than original and the right pop of bling...good job Doc









Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

⬆⬆ Thats a great pic of the blue. ⬆⬆
Someone go buy my Nacken Renegade in the exchange so I can justify buying one.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Anyone still looking to grab a DevilRay, make sure to check out Serious' eBay store. Must be sitting on a pile of them because they're accepting some crazy best offers!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Extremely rare Lew & Huey "Black-Tie" Cerberus for sale (cheap)!









SOLD: Lew and Huey (NTH) Black Tie Cerberus Limited Edition


For sale is a limited edition Lew and Huey Black Tie Cerberus. In excellent condition with minor signs of surface wear. These don't come up for sale often. Bracelet unsized/unworn. $375 shipped to US only. Payment via PayPal (I cover fees). No trades, please. I've had 250+ good transactions...




www.watchuseek.com


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

winstoda said:


> Anyone still looking to grab a DevilRay, make sure to check out Serious' eBay store. Must be sitting on a pile of them because they're accepting some crazy best offers!


They are asking $712 which is nearly 200 over retail

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Extremely rare Lew & Huey "Black-Tie" Cerberus for sale (cheap)!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If only it were smaller. So, hey, @uvalaw2005 - how come you're unloading metric ****-ton boatload of NTH/L&H's...?


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> They are asking $712 which is nearly 200 over retail
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Correct. And they're accepting best offers well below retail.

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> If only it were smaller. So, hey, @uvalaw2005 - how come you're unloading metric ****-ton boatload of NTH/L&H's...?


I had an inside man at Doc's old warehouse and the statute of limitations for receiving stolen property just expired.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

L&H sold, it is a gorgeous watch, hope the new owner will post some pics.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> I had an inside man at Doc's old warehouse and the statute of limitations for receiving stolen property just expired.


if you have an orthos ii in white let me know...thx

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My new NTH piece:










Just in case I ever want to go "Full Scorpéne"...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> My new NTH piece:
> 
> View attachment 15421029
> 
> ...


Am I crazy, or did you not already have a "full Scorpene"?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads-up -

We had some one-off bezel inserts for the NTH Subs - inserts that had the wrong color for the base or the lume, or were made with the wrong marking pattern, etc, including 5 that are just raw steel, with no coating or lume at all. Rather than have them sit idle, we figured we'd add them to the website for sale.

You can find them here - One-off Replacement Bezel Inserts for NTH Subs.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Am I crazy, or did you not already have a "full Scorpene"?


Well...:

Spring '19, I picked up a used, near new Scorpene. Great watch, if only it had a 12hr bezel. I think I said as much around here.

Summer '19 you came out with the Amphion Commando. 12hr/countdown bezel in stainless?!? Sold the Scorpene to pick up the Commando, thinking, "Wish I could keep both and just swap bezels - how cool would a Scorpene Commando be?"

Winter 19/20 you announce the Scorpene Nomad. (Is Docvail messing with me...?)

Winter? Spring? Sell the Amphion to some shifty dude, in order to pick up the Scorpene Nomad. Niiiiice...

Spring 20 you start selling bezel inserts separately. (Docvail is definitely messing with me...)

So. Currently, I have a Scorpene Nomad with a Commando bezel insert. Love that thing to death. But kept the Nomad insert because complete set and whatnot. However, I didn't hate the OG Scorpene, so with that insert available again, figured I'd pick one up. Just in case I ever wanted to go that way. You posting a nice pic of one just a few days ago didn't help...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Fun tidbit.
If you Google "Beads of Poop"(don't ask why I did this), a picture of my Azzuauro shows up. 

My apologies Doc... Because now mixed in with a bunch of pictures of poop emoji stuff and stone bead bracelets is a pic of an NTH.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I still enjoy these. I know the company is technically "Nth degree," but come on. Doc please tell me you own at least one pair lol.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Surprisingly interesting release from CW - they went ahead and made an actual super compressor, and due to the size limitations of the dial, the logo is in the right place. WR seems odd though, they apparently claim that it's capable of much higher than 150M....so why not rate it for what it's actually capable of? If an SKX can easily handle 200M, I have to imagine that can as well.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Davekaye90 said:


> Surprisingly interesting release from CW - they went ahead and made an actual super compressor, and due to the size limitations of the dial, the logo is in the right place. WR seems odd though, they apparently claim that it's capable of much higher than 150M....so why not rate it for what it's actually capable of? If an SKX can easily handle 200M, I have to imagine that can as well.


The "Super Compressor" font is not centered and off to the left. Would that be "within tolerances"? 🤣


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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

Slant said:


> The "Super Compressor" font is not centered and off to the left. Would that be "within tolerances"?


I would half expect that to be deliberate in order to troll those that had a meltdown over the mk3 logo being at the 9 o'clock position.....

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




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## Antjrice (Oct 27, 2019)

Chilled Sunday.

However.... I always capture the reflection of the phone on the bloody crystal...









Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just happened - Review: Atticus Téleios inspires nostalgic punk rock attitude


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

I wanna be sedated...🤙


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Looks like Mido had the same idea as Chris Ward. Still not sure why I'm supposed to want to look at that part of a movement, particularly when it's completely undecorated, but hey takes all kinds I guess. I do think making it a sort of "fume" dial is preferable to the translucent blue, at least.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just happened - Review: Atticus Téleios inspires nostalgic punk rock attitude


Davekaye90 said:


> Looks like Mido had the same idea as Chris Ward. Still not sure why I'm supposed to want to look at that part of a movement, particularly when it's completely undecorated, but hey takes all kinds I guess. I do think making it a sort of "fume" dial is preferable to the translucent blue, at least.


Curiosity compels me to ask - why are you posting about CW and Mido here?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> Looks like Mido had the same idea as Chris Ward. Still not sure why I'm supposed to want to look at that part of a movement, particularly when it's completely undecorated, but hey takes all kinds I guess. I do think making it a sort of "fume" dial is preferable to the translucent blue, at least.


That's actually not too terrible, I kind of like it. Not something I think I'd choose to spend my money on, but I kinda like it nonetheless.

As for CW, I know they're loved, and they're quality, but I just haven't found a single one that makes me go "that'un! I gotta have that!". Not to mention, I'll openly admit I _am_ one of the people where the name absolutely kills it for me. Theres quite a few others like C. Ward. Formex comes to mind... I'd buy an Essence Dégradé in a heartbeat if Formex name didn't bother me.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> This just happened - Review: Atticus Téleios inspires nostalgic punk rock attitude
> 
> Curiosity compels me to ask - why are you posting about CW and Mido here?


No reason in particular, I just enjoy talking watches with the folks in this thread.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> As for CW, I know they're loved, and they're quality, but I just haven't found a single one that makes me go "that'un! I gotta have that!". Not to mention, I'll openly admit I _am_ one of the people where the name absolutely kills it for me. Theres quite a few others like C. Ward. Formex comes to mind... I'd buy an Essence Dégradé in a heartbeat if Formex name didn't bother me.


The one I've liked most that I've seen so far is the blue dial C1 Grand Malvern 5-day automatic, but they discontinued every color but white awhile back, and white dial dress watches do absolutely nothing for me. I don't mind the brand name. Wish the logo was different, but that's been discussed to death.

Formex yeah. It sounds like a brand of leggings or something. For whatever reason, the watch brand name that bugs me most is Carl F. Bucherer. Nothing against the Carls of the world, but I feel like "Carl" isn't a great name to have on a watch. I also wouldn't wear a "Steve P. Johnson" or a "Bob R. Williams." I think they should follow the FP Journe route and call the brand C.F. Bucherer.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Required: NTH Watch for NTH thread, ergo - Blue NTH Sub for Blue Monday..........................










Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Help me figure something out, please.

When watch geeks on the forums or social media think about NTH, if someone wanted to condense what the brand is known for into the shortest description possible, but one which doesn't leave anything critical out, what is that description?

As an example, if someone asked me about Halios, I might say, "boutique dive-watch company known for crisp designs, very limited production, and a cult-like following." I that's about as short as I can make it, without leaving anything critical out.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That's a difficult question...
Idk how to formulate it, but I feel it should include:

Push(ed) the thin diver angle further, earlier, than any microbrand before
Brand owner participating in the community
Introduced lumed crowns
Subs as core range, other models as sidetracks/offshoots (?)


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Unmistakably modern watches based on classic design cues, with outstanding specifications, and an established brand history.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Help me figure something out, please.
> 
> When watch geeks on the forums or social media think about NTH, if someone wanted to condense what the brand is known for into the shortest description possible, but one which doesn't leave anything critical out, what is that description?
> 
> As an example, if someone asked me about Halios, I might say, "boutique dive-watch company known for crisp designs, very limited production, and a cult-like following." I that's about as short as I can make it, without leaving anything critical out.


Hmmm. Something like "Mid-century inspired divers that focus on both form and function, with components and materials chosen because they work, not because they're the latest fad."

At least that's what I think. That's why I imagine there won't be a bronze Sub with a meteorite dial any time soon...or an acrylic or sapphire dial showing off the gorgeous 9015 bottom plate and date wheel.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

No nonsense watches with a modern take on classic designs, that seamlessly blend both form and function into a slim and attractive package at an attainable price point.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

An early but lesser known microbrand with a cult following that designs and produces vintage inspired, affordable, high quality diver's watches, pays great attention to detail, has great direct customer engagement, and even better after sales support. Value for money. So many great designs that one watch is not enough.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

gokce said:


> Value for money.


Not according to someone who's handle starts with a J and ends in a number. After all... Its _just_ a Miyota! 
Yet... Curiously... Still owns one. "Vails Finest Work", to be precise.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

NTH - "There's a sub for that."


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Very interesting article. Not sure what Swatch is thinking here, burying this thing in watches that people don't really care about or even know exist. It's clearly doable though, so I wonder if Miyota or Seiko will try and do something similar.









Finally, An Affordable "True" GMT Hits the Market - Worn & Wound


A proper GMT complication at an accessible price point is a rare sight, we take a closer look at some of your best options.




wornandwound.com


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Modern, comfortable watches with a nod to history...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

It’s a nice watch. You can buy it or not. Don’t piss in owner’s ear. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Oh, is it time for the fun, sarcastic ones now?!

NTH. Get 500 friends to put down a non refundable deposit and maybe we'll build your stupid f*cking idea.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Whoa... Double post.

Heres a panda with a gatling gun.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Special watches for "special" people.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Nth home of Vail's finest work. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Morning drive...









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Excuse the clouds. And the dust.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Very interesting article. Not sure what Swatch is thinking here, burying this thing in watches that people don't really care about or even know exist. It's clearly doable though, so I wonder if Miyota or Seiko will try and do something similar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like a Muhle Glashutte Seebattalion GMT, but with better hands, a better date wheel color, applied indices, (probably) better lume, and can't possibly be worse bezel action, for about 1/3 of the price.


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## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

First time putting the Brown on mesh this morning. Really enjoying it so far. Honeymoon period still going strong with this one with NTH sub #2 for me already on the way courtesy of WatchGauge. Been thinking about what that blurb would be to define NTH but haven't been able to land on something simple yet. It really is all the historic & case design details combined with the no fuss function of the pieces at the price point for me. When I figure it out I'll share.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Davekaye90 said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting article. Not sure what Swatch is thinking here, burying this thing in watches that people don't really care about or even know exist. It's clearly doable though, so I wonder if Miyota or Seiko will try and do something similar.
> ...


Just read the review, and compared it to the review W&W wrote on the Seebattalion.

Different writers for each, but it's interesting to see how they praised the Seebattalion's design, but somewhat panned the Ocean Star's, despite their similarity in appearance, and nearly identical dimensions (it took me a bit of searching to find the Mido's lug length, but according to Gnomon, it's 50mm, which isn't bad, considering the 44mm diameter).

Also interesting to see that Certina has had a GMT with the same movement available since last year, the DS Action GMT (currently listed on Jomashop for $595; it was listed on World of Watches for $589, but is out of stock), with a slightly more modest 43mm diameter.

Tissot also has the Chemin des Tourelles GMT, with the same movement, but odd-ball design (yet 42mm). Joma currently has it listed for $565.

The reviewer at W&W makes the same observation I would, by asking (rhetorically) whether or not this movement is the game-changing answer to the market's clamor for an affordable and mechanical "true" GMT, or if the clamoring is really just coming from a small sliver of the market, and the rest will respond with a collective "meh".

It may be that none of the models from Mido, Certina or Tissot have really offered the market what it wants yet, given their sizes and stylings, but so far, the market's response does indeed seem to be "meh".

My suspicion has been, and still is that the GMT function is mostly a novelty, something which appeals to noob-watch geeks' desires for complications with limited day-to-day usefulness, but that there really isn't enough demand from the broader market.

My hope is that Swatch will continue developing more and better models using that movement, and that those will be available for affordable prices. That would give me something to point to when people ask why I don't make a GMT.

I can either say, "there you go, plenty of Swatch models to choose from", or alternatively, "look - Swatch made them, and they didn't sell, which is why they're getting blown out at discount prices on the gray market," and "I can't get the movements from Swatch, and even if I could, I wouldn't be able to sell the watch for as little as the Swatch brands do."

So...I'm going to file this one under "J" for "just as I thought..."


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Very interesting article. Not sure what Swatch is thinking here, burying this thing in watches that people don't really care about or even know exist. It's clearly doable though, so I wonder if Miyota or Seiko will try and do something similar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was wondering what the "finally" was all about, since there have been watches with this movement available from 2019, but they mention this in the article, so I'll give them a pass...

I used to be a GMT nerd, so I was thrilled to hear about these. But at 43, 44mm... uh, no. Stuff one into a 40, 41mm watch max. and I'll consider it; at 38mm, we're finally hitting take my money territory. And really, a GMT watch with a dive bezel? C'mon...

Besides, if I wanted this kind of functionality, I'd hunt down an Alpina Startimer Pilot Heritage - larger diameter case, but cushion style and shorter L2L means it wears near perfect for me. Tried one on at a dealer and, damn... Couple of design cues that just don't quite do it for me, but that would do the trick.

If I was even after a mechanical GMT. I got spoiled on Seiko 8f56 quartz movements. The perpetual calendar means no futzing around with GMT/date function, or dealing with a non-quickset date. "True" travelers GMT hour hand adjustability, back and forth, so I don't have to cycle through 23 hrs if I miss my mark by one. Seiko Kinetic SUN series would still be on my radar, but they are all gargantuan-huge watches.

Ever since then, never met a mechanical GMT I liked. If I had to settle for one, it would probably be the aforementioned Alpina if I was feeling flush, or the Much Truer GMT function [fight me] found currently in Vostok models...

So at the moment, happy enough with dual time-zone functionality of a 12hr bezel on my Scorpene...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

When i first saw the article for the Mido gmt i was like oh cool, someone finally made an affordable jumping hour gmt! And i agree with some of the other comments made above about the diver bezel instead of a gmt bezel. As much as i would like to really like this watch, one issue i have, which is the same issue i have with my current Mido OceanStar is the crown. It is so polished and small that you almost need pliers to grip it to adjust the watch. The crown guards which are unnecessary also block easy access to the crown which is rather small. Frankly its the one thing i hate about the watch enough to want to make me flip it.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

... I don't get this, tbh.

Why do people want a rotating 24 hour bezel on a GMT watch that _already has a rotating 24-hour hand *that can be set to ANY time offset* from the main 12h-time_?

How many people actually need to track THREE timezones at once?!

I get some folks wanting a rotating 12 hour bezel on a 12h-time-only threehand watch. There, the bezel lets you track a second timezone. On a GMT-movement watch, the movement already does that for you!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> ... I don't get this, tbh.
> 
> Why do people want a rotating 24 hour bezel on a GMT watch that _already has a rotating 24-hour hand *that can be set to ANY time offset* from the main 12h-time_?
> 
> ...


Im actually on an overseas assignment for a DOD project at this moment located in Qatar. I actually track multiple time zones for various reasons. So to your question, there are a few of us who like those 24 hour bezels.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> I used to be a GMT nerd, so I was thrilled to hear about these. But at 43, 44mm... uh, no. Stuff one into a 40, 41mm watch max.
> 
> If I was even after a mechanical GMT. I got spoiled on Seiko 8f56 quartz movements. The perpetual calendar means no futzing around with GMT/date function, or dealing with a non-quickset date. "True" travelers GMT hour hand adjustability, back and forth, so I don't have to cycle through 23 hrs if I miss my mark by one. Seiko Kinetic SUN series would still be on my radar, but they are all gargantuan-huge watches.


Agreed. I still have a couple of 8F56s, but now it's the 12 hr. bezel on my L&H Ghost Rider.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

That Mido is sweet as...am waiting for it to land at my local AD and, subject to how it looks "on-wrist", will be my first watch from the brand. 

I think it's a handsome and coherent design that manages to stand out from the crowd without going too out there.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> ... I don't get this, tbh.
> 
> Why do people want a rotating 24 hour bezel on a GMT watch that _already has a rotating 24-hour hand *that can be set to ANY time offset* from the main 12h-time_?
> 
> ...


International/intercontinental pilots - time at departure location, GMT, time at destination

On my end, when traveling: home time, layover time, destination time.

On my end, for business: Shenzhen China time, USA PST west coast office time, USA EST east coast office time.

There are a few different businesses where you will find clocks marking time in different global locations on the walls - it might be that you want a watch that can track as many as possible. I think there was a Glycine produced which could track 11. Gave me a headache just looking at it, nevermind trying to tell the actual time, but someone bought them...

Depends on the watch's mission - dive watch with a dive bezel. OK. But if you're making it a point to do a GMT watch with a rotating bezel, usual expectation is that you would do it with a 24hr bezel.

Some people make a big deal about it. I'm actually perfectly happy with a dual timezone watch - either GMT without a rotating bezel, Truer (tm) GMT with fixed 24 hour hand and rotating bezel, or simply a 12hr rotating bezel.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The reviewer at W&W makes the same observation I would, by asking (rhetorically) whether or not this movement is the game-changing answer to the market's clamor for an affordable and mechanical "true" GMT, or if the clamoring is really just coming from a small sliver of the market, and the rest will respond with a collective "meh".
> 
> It may be that none of the models from Mido, Certina or Tissot have really offered the market what it wants yet, given their sizes and stylings, but so far, the market's response does indeed seem to be "meh".
> 
> ...


I think the reaction to these is a combination of relatively anonymous looking watches that are arguably too big, combined with terrible marketing. As they mention in the article, Mido doesn't even bother to mention how the GMT function works, they had to ask somebody with the watch.

GMT watches I think are certainly more niche than 3-hand divers, and probably chronographs as well. But I think the author is right that they are on the upswing - IF you get the design right. I know they've been producing them in tiny numbers compared to how many of these Midos or Certinas are probably floating around, but Zodiac's Aerospace releases have been flying off the shelves, and are getting flipped for above MSRP - and they don't have the jump hour. If the Aerospace GMT worked like the GMT-Master, I think people would lose their minds.

Monta has had the Skyquest for awhile, and I don't think they would've introduced the Atlas if they felt there wasn't a good business case for it. Farer also just introduced their second line of GMTs. So at that upper end of the microbrand market at least, they seem to think there's money to be made there.

Given what's currently available to use (pretty much the SW-330) I don't think it makes sense to jump into an already crowded market covering a niche, especially since dual 12-hour subs can be made so easily. IF Miyota or Seiko made a jump hour GMT, that might be different, but they don't.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't think the Mido is a bad-looking design. I'd like it better at 40mm-42mm (and with a bigger crown, since it's been mentioned) than I do at 44mm. I've never been blown away by Mido's quality, but $600 for a mechanical "true" GMT is hard to argue with. 

I'm not a purist when it comes to the bezels on a GMT. I really love the looks of the "Steve McQueen" Explorer II GMT, which has a fixed bezel (no 3rd time zone tracking), so it doesn't seem like there's a "correct" answer to the bezel markings question. Since the Mido has 200m WR, the count-up 60 minute timer seems as correct as a 24 hour bezel, and except for guys who need to track a 3rd time zone, would probably make the watch more functional overall, given the GMT scale on the rehaut. I use my 60 minute bezels A LOT more than my 12hr bezels, and I don't dive.

Would they sell more of them if it was 40mm-42mm (and/or under 13.28mm thick)? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they'd sell the same number of them, they'd just be selling them to guys who prefer 40mm-42mm over 44mm. 

My point is - I'm not convinced it's the case size holding it or the Certina DS version back. Lots of guys out there buying and wearing 43mm-44mm watches without realizing how uncool they are, according to WIS opinions.

Like I said earlier - I think the GMT function is mostly a novelty, something noob watch-geeks get excited about, until the excitement wears off. If the function was really that popular, I think people would be more excited about these than they've apparently been, given that the Certina has been available since last year, and I don't remember any discussion about it on WUS, at all.

All that said, if the Japanese made a good / affordable mechanical GMT movement that I could use, I'd still consider it, especially if its dimensions allowed us to use it in the same case as our 3-hand movements. Since this C07.661 calibre appears to be based on the 2824-2, I know there's no way it would fit into the Subs case, at least not without dropping the WR, to allow for a thinner crystal and caseback, but even that may not give it enough clearance. We might have to "raise the roof" with a box crystal, and/or go pot-belly with a deeper-dished case-back.

Anyhoo - Y'all know my feelings about Swiss movements, especially from ETA. Swatch Group can pucker up and kiss my perfectly-shaped rump before I'll jump through the hoops necessary to source them.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

I'm liking the leather


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Not the latest and greatest, but I like it, even on dreary days in the Thumb.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

RickHoliday said:


> I'm liking the leather
> View attachment 15429045


That looks awesome!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

"Modern brand with detailed design, creating aesthetically fresh and functional interpretations of the classic dive watch."

Best shot at my short and sweet brand blurb. Got my Amphion Commando in yesterday from John at WatchGauge. Honestly couldn't be happier with it and the overall experience. John also accommodated a request for a BoR instead of the oyster bracelet since I already have one from the Barracuda. Being a newcomer into the watch scene which can feel very stuffy and snobby, the experience of owning a NTH and buying through someone like John is something I value. There's lots of talk about brand value and what you can get going with a bigger brand, but through keeping up with this thread I've learned that I value the ability to reach out and interact with brand owners and hear firsthand from the source about their products. Thanks Doc for being active and answering a ton of questions, and for choosing some great retailers.

Wouldn't be complete without a pic...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

theswervyn said:


> "Modern brand with detailed design, creating aesthetically fresh and functional interpretations of the classic dive watch."
> 
> Best shot at my short and sweet brand blurb. Got my Amphion Commando in yesterday from John at WatchGauge. Honestly couldn't be happier with it and the overall experience. John also accommodated a request for a BoR instead of the oyster bracelet since I already have one from the Barracuda. Being a newcomer into the watch scene which can feel very stuffy and snobby, the experience of owning a NTH and buying through someone like John is something I value. There's lots of talk about brand value and what you can get going with a bigger brand, but through keeping up with this thread I've learned that I value the ability to reach out and interact with brand owners and hear firsthand from the source about their products. Thanks Doc for being active and answering a ton of questions, and for choosing some great retailers.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the cool kids club


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

theswervyn said:


> "Modern brand with detailed design, creating aesthetically fresh and functional interpretations of the classic dive watch."
> 
> Best shot at my short and sweet brand blurb. Got my Amphion Commando in yesterday from John at WatchGauge. Honestly couldn't be happier with it and the overall experience. John also accommodated a request for a BoR instead of the oyster bracelet since I already have one from the Barracuda. Being a newcomer into the watch scene which can feel very stuffy and snobby, the experience of owning a NTH and buying through someone like John is something I value. There's lots of talk about brand value and what you can get going with a bigger brand, but through keeping up with this thread I've learned that I value the ability to reach out and interact with brand owners and hear firsthand from the source about their products. Thanks Doc for being active and answering a ton of questions, and for choosing some great retailers.
> 
> ...


That was the last no-date left in the world. Glad you like it, and that it was a good experience dealing with John. He's good people.

Glad to have you as part of "the fam" here. Let us (John and/or my team) know if the watch gives you any trouble.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Welcome! Nice bezel...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Amphion Commando is now sold out, worldwide.

Odin Black with date is also sold out. The last few pieces of the no-dates are available at Watch Gauge.

Watch Gauge also has the last few pieces of the Skipjack (both with date and no-date).

There are 2 Dolphin Ice no dates left in the world - one at Watch Gauge, and one at Serious Watches.

There are 3 Scorpène Nomad with-dates left - 1 at Watch Gauge, and 2 at IntoWatch in S.Korea. IntoWatch also has the last of the no-dates.

Watch Gauge has the last few pieces of the Amphion Vintage Gilt with date. Watch Gauge is also about to have 2 of the last 3 no-dates, the other being at Serious Watches.

There are 4 Näcken Vintage Black left available. I'm not sure if it's 2 dates / 2 no-dates, or 3 no-dates and 1 with-date, but Watch Gauge definitely has 2 no-dates. The other two pieces, whatever they are, are at The Watchdrobe in Hong Kong, and Five:45 in New Zealand.


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> Welcome! Nice bezel...
> 
> View attachment 15431659
> 
> ...


Even more bezel! This time on rubber


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RickHoliday said:


> Even more bezel! This time on rubber
> 
> View attachment 15433269


I'm diggin' that combo


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)




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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Back to the macros again...


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## Pogo247 (May 11, 2020)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 15435190


What nato is that just out of interest? Goes great with the gilt colours of the watch

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Pogo247 said:


> What nato is that just out of interest? Goes great with the gilt colours of the watch


I think it's the caramel Orca from BluShark: Orca - Caramel Watch Strap


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## InDNavVet (May 1, 2018)

I have not read the over 3000 posts in this thread, but I have a request for DocVail...

Hello! I wanted to ask, if there was any hope for an Azores/Antilles v2, as has been done with the Devil Ray (however, choice of movement will preclude my owning one, I'm a movement snob because I really appreciate a cleaner, smoother sweep of the second hand...but that's a different argument for a different time, haha...). 

I ask, because I had an Antilles last year, and 'stupidly' gave it up, thinking I could grab one, or an Azores later on, that actually had a date window...same with the Devil Ray. Over the years, I've refined my desired attributes to a very specific 'list', and a date window being one I really need to have...

Anyway, I understand that there is some 'fatigue' over 'heritage' or 'vintage'-designed watches, but the NTH Azores/Antilles are EXTREMELY popular, evidenced by the very few opportunities to purchase one, and how quickly they are scooped up, when offered here, or reddit, like the Azores listed yesterday...GONE before I even had a chance to consider it, lol...

I know I personally would love to see a v2, that did not include many, if any at all, refinements to original design, and movement.

Thanks for indulging me on my long-winded way to ask...will NTH please consider making another batch of the Azores and Antilles line??

Cheers!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

InDNavVet said:


> I have not read the over 3000 posts in this thread, but I have a request for DocVail...
> 
> Hello! I wanted to ask, if there was any hope for an Azores/Antilles v2, as has been done with the Devil Ray (however, choice of movement will preclude my owning one, I'm a movement snob because I really appreciate a cleaner, smoother sweep of the second hand...but that's a different argument for a different time, haha...).
> 
> ...


Yes, it's in the cards.

Phase 1 was Devilray v2.
Phase 2 is the 2K1(XL) subs. Swiftsure and Thresher, SS and DLC models.
Phase 3 is a few new 40mm sub models. New dial variants, with some DLC models.
Phase 4 is Tropics v2. Though if you're a movement "snob" as you say, I don't know if youll be excited to hear the STPs were dropped(for good reason) in favor of Miyotas(which I am wholly in favor of).

If you can get over your movement "snobbery" the prototypes Doc has shown on here are killer. Early 2021 is the guesstimate for release.

I just need to see more photos to decide which Azores to get...

I think I got all the new stuff in there.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

InDNavVet said:


> I have not read the over 3000 posts in this thread, but I have a request for DocVail...
> 
> Hello! I wanted to ask, if there was any hope for an Azores/Antilles v2, as has been done with the Devil Ray (however, choice of movement will preclude my owning one, I'm a movement snob because I really appreciate a cleaner, smoother sweep of the second hand...but that's a different argument for a different time, haha...).
> 
> ...


We've been thinking about producing updated versions of the Tropics next year, possibly early in the year, but like so many things, plans that far out are subject to change.

We're planning to use the Miyota 9 series. That's not open to debate. I won't be persuaded otherwise, unless Seiko makes a better option available.

Case design, dimensions and specs will be unchanged from the original.

I'm not sure if we'll offer it on the bracelet only, or include the same Tropic-style rubber strap we did with the originals. I have to figure out the production costs first.

Pricing hasn't been set yet, but I expect it to be over $700.

The BOR bracelet will be replaced with the style in the pics below. The expansion clasp used on the original will be replaced with the same 18mm folding clasp used on the NTH Subs.

The updated Azores will have applied (rather than printed) indices, and be offered in green or blue, both with or without a date window.

The Antilles will have two dial colors. Only the darker of the two will have a date window. I'm not yet sure if it will ONLY be offered with a date window, or if there will be a no-date option for that color. The lighter color will be no-date only.

The date window for both Azores and Antilles will be located where it's seen in the pic below, just past the 4 o'clock index, because that's really the only place it can be effectively located, unless we re-print the date wheels, which I won't do.


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## InDNavVet (May 1, 2018)

Fantastic!! Thank you!! And Miyota 9 series are some of my favorite movements, so I wholeheartedly agree with the use of those (28800bph 4Hz), but like you said--you won't be persuaded, so whatever is in best interest of the company OBVIOUSLY outweighs the desires of one movement snob, haha!! So, if a date version is available, and it has a Miyota 9 series, I'll do my best to have funds available to purchase one!! Cheers! And thanks again!!

Oh, and may I say...BEST vintage designs out there!!


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Memories.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I wonder where are all the Riccardos. They don't seem to show up on WUS, at all...


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## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

Happy Labor Day all. The versatility of this Amphion has been a lot of fun the past couple days. Hanging out with some New Riff Rye which is fitting since New Riff's tagline is "a new riff on an old tradition". Pretty much another way to say a "nod to history".


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Chugga-chugga choo-choo!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Chugga-chugga choo-choo!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you're saying these things can take a hit from a freight train?

Coooool


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> So you're saying these things can take a hit from a freight train?
> 
> Coooool


"Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings at a single bound-look, up there in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, No....it's Super Pytheas"!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Siddy (Dec 12, 2019)




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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Help me figure something out, please.
> 
> When watch geeks on the forums or social media think about NTH, if someone wanted to condense what the brand is known for into the shortest description possible, but one which doesn't leave anything critical out, what is that description?
> 
> As an example, if someone asked me about Halios, I might say, "boutique dive-watch company known for crisp designs, very limited production, and a cult-like following." I that's about as short as I can make it, without leaving anything critical out.


Yes, yes, a wee bit behind with a response, but hey, this is 2020, the Year of the Damned right??

Have been severely tested these past few months, but yesterday, I enjoyed a very happy, unabused hour or so on a lonely train journey - total bliss......

So I went all Mad Men and cranked out a few strap-lines, the best that I could come up with is......

Watches created with the spirit of the past, but each with their own identity; add just a dash of attitude and you have the perfect watch for the savvy individualist that you are.

Keep the faith y'all.

Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Yes, yes, a wee bit behind with a response, but hey, this is 2020, the Year of the Damned right??
> 
> Have been severely tested these past few months, but yesterday, I enjoyed a very happy, unabused hour or so on a lonely train journey - total bliss......
> 
> ...


Happy trails, Buckaroo...


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Baldrick said:


> That Mido is sweet as...am waiting for it to land at my local AD and, subject to how it looks "on-wrist", will be my first watch from the brand.
> 
> I think it's a handsome and coherent design that manages to stand out from the crowd without going too out there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Welp.






























Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Baldrick said:


> Welp.
> View attachment 15440372
> 
> 
> ...


Is the jump hour bi-directional? That's the main issue with what Alpina did - it technically has a jump hour, but only in one direction.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Baldrick said:


> Welp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you like it?

Are you going to do a "first impressions" or full-blown review thread?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of GMT's - when we were talking about them, and noting the relative scarcity of choices in affordable mechanical GMT movements, I'd forgotten that Straton recently released the Tourer GMT, with a Swisstech movement, which is apparently based on the ETA 2824, with a GMT module added.










I don't know much about Swisstech, other than they claim to have operations in China/Hong Kong, as well as Switzerland and Germany. They offer both Chinese and certified "Swiss" calibres.

I asked Kyle from Straton about their reliability. So far, he seems pretty pleased with their performance.

As for their GMT function, it appears that like most other GMT movements, it's the GMT hand, not the main hour hand, which is independently set.

Kyle said he only made 250 of the automatic GMT's, which appear to now be sold out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Annndddd....related to GMT's, this is interesting.

Just popping up in my FB feed today is a new brand launching, apparently by the sons of Christopher Ward, "Tribus".









TRIBUS Official Site - CLOSED


Change your perception of time. Discover the TRIBUS range of chronometers, plus collaborations with Brentford FC, 23 Foundation, My Dog Sighs and 303 Squadron.




tribus-watches.com





Y'all can judge the designs and value for yourselves. The one thing that jumps out at me is that all the product images are illustrations, not photos. I'm not sure if that means the watches don't exist yet, or like me, they prefer to use illustrations for the main product images.

PS/EDIT - upon closer reading, it does appear that they're in pre-order, with a November delivery target, which I take to mean they've already started production.

At those prices, and with that variety, they must be very well-funded to have started production already. It's interesting that they didn't spend a little more to get some pre-production photos taken.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Annndddd....related to GMT's, this is interesting.
> 
> Just popping up in my FB feed today is a new brand launching, apparently by the sons of Christopher Ward, "Tribus".
> 
> ...


Bucking the "smaller is the new large" trend...

Solid meh. Conservative designs in case sizes on the larger end of where I'm at. Probably, they will succeed in the wider non-WIS market better than they will among watch nerds

They remind me of Junkers / Iron Annie watches in designs and size, if not price; they are the older son of CW like Atticus is the middle child of NTH.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Is the jump hour bi-directional? That's the main issue with what Alpina did - it technically has a jump hour, but only in one direction.


Bi-directional on the main hour hand (I.e. the non blue hand). Not bad for under USD1k.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> How do you like it?
> 
> Are you going to do a "first impressions" or full-blown review thread?


Still in the first 48-hour honeymoon period, and a big fan so far!

I'll do a separate thread once I've had it for a few weeks and have put it through its paces.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Bucking the "smaller is the new large" trend...
> 
> Solid meh. Conservative designs in case sizes on the larger end of where I'm at. Probably, they will succeed in the wider non-WIS market better than they will among watch nerds
> 
> They remind me of Junkers / Iron Annie watches in designs and size, if not price; they are the older son of CW like Atticus is the middle child of NTH.


I prefer to think of Rusty as the brother I never wanted, and Atticus as his time-and-space-consuming science-fair project.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Annndddd....related to GMT's, this is interesting.
> 
> Just popping up in my FB feed today is a new brand launching, apparently by the sons of Christopher Ward, "Tribus".
> 
> ...


Not loving thr designs here will need to spend some more time. But after all a quick glance nothing woos me in the way Vail's finest work did.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Bucking the "smaller is the new large" trend...
> 
> Solid meh. Conservative designs in case sizes on the larger end of where I'm at. Probably, they will succeed in the wider non-WIS market better than they will among watch nerds
> 
> They remind me of Junkers / Iron Annie watches in designs and size, if not price; they are the older son of CW like Atticus is the middle child of NTH.


I dunno, the design of this is outside the mainstream IMO.










Lots to like, lots I'm less keen on. I really like the symmetrical pair of sub-dials on a non-chronometer; PR and GMT is a nice (and unique?) pairing. But I'd prefer them at 3 & 9 and to be the same colour. I like the hands and the numerals. But the colour scheme is a bit macho and I don't understand the inner track . A long way from CW IMO and that's a good thing.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I like it. But not enough to buy one. 

And they're yet another victim to the "wont buy it because it's got a stupid name" ideal that I have.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Baldrick said:


> Bi-directional on the main hour hand (I.e. the non blue hand). Not bad for under USD1k.


OK, that's cool... how do you set the date?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> OK, that's cool... how do you set the date?


With the crown.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - Tribus...

I'm pretty sure I heard that "the" Christopher Ward left his eponymous brand, and if so, I would assume there's a non-compete in place, preventing him from starting another brand, but that agreement wouldn't likely extend to any of his relatives, if they weren't CW employees at the time, and/or participants to the buy-out.

So...the "sons" of Chris Ward starting a brand is interesting, if the truth is that Chris is involved in some way, in the background. I have no idea, and I'm not speculating, only admitting that it's within the realm of the possible. It might help explain what Tribus is doing, perhaps, if it's a reflection of what Chris wanted to do with CW, but couldn't, once outside investors got involved.

Or, it could just be a business his sons started, and he's off enjoying a well-earned retirement.

I'm not in a position to judge their prices. They're going full-on "Swiss Made", and I don't feel like finding other watches with comparable specs/components, for the purposes of comparison. The one model which most interests me is that TRI-02 GMT, for $1855 (on the bracelet), with a Soprod movement. I have no idea what other options there are, with the same specs/movement.

That said, their prices not only include free shipping, they apparently also include customs duties. I had a semi-exhausting exchange about it with some guys on Facebook earlier today. Short version - it makes sense and seems like a great convenience to those living in countries that charge ~20% VAT, but I wonder if someone in a non-VAT country is paying a premium, by way of the brand marking all prices up to the same level for all customers, regardless of location, to offset the worst-case-scenario import taxes which would be due in the highest tax countries.

I couldn't figure it out for certain, and don't plan to, because I lost interest, right about the time the exchange became exhausting.

All that aside - most of the comments I've been seeing on FB (and now, here) are a big, generic "meh".

But on a semi-related note...the other day, someone on Facebook balked at the price of the DevilRays, because of the Seiko movements in them. Before I green-light production of a new model, I do a fair bit of competitive analysis, in order to determine the reasonable range of pricing, so I'm always certain that our prices aren't outside that range.

Without wanting to argue the point with that guy, I simply responded that we're seeing rising costs of components and materials, as well as labor and shipping, so he should expect to see all watch prices creeping up, from all brands, even the value-leaders.

I don't really want to debate it here, either, so, please, if you're feeling that compulsion, ignore it. There are things I see and hear that I don't discuss publicly, but which nonetheless reinforce what I've been saying for the last 2 years - higher prices are coming, like it or not.

My vendor has told me about a handful of brands which have left him, seeking lower costs, but often finding more problems, particularly lower quality. There's really no free lunch. Quality costs, and costs are going up for all of us.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> OK, that's cool... how do you set the date?


I'm guessing it's not quick-set? Pretty sure that's how the Globemaster works. Jump the hour past 12am, and it'll advance to the next day. If it can also _reverse _the date, that would be a _big_ deal, as VERY few GMTs have that ability.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Annndddd....related to GMT's, this is interesting.
> 
> Just popping up in my FB feed today is a new brand launching, apparently by the sons of Christopher Ward, "Tribus".
> 
> ...


I think the small seconds field watch is the most cohesive, the rest definitely do nothing for me. The TRI-05 303 Squadron certainly is "ambitiously priced" for a 3-hand field watch with a Sellita SW-200. At least they do a semi-decent job of explaining the bit of aircraft metal that you're paying basically $2K to have placed into your otherwise ordinary field watch. I don't remember the exact details, but I think the fabric that Bremont used in their "Wright Flyer" was surplus recovered and wasn't even on the actual plane.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> With the crown.






docvail said:


> My vendor has told me about a handful of brands which have left him, seeking lower costs, but often finding more problems, particularly lower quality. There's really no free lunch. Quality costs, and costs are going up for all of us.


It's hard for a lot of people to comprehend. In my position, I get caught between sales and marketing (lower prices!) and the bean counters (we aren't making margin!). Lately, consolidation of manufacturing plants has decreased domestic production capacity leading to lower supply, higher demand... and yes, higher pricing with longer lead times. Same thing with paper - closed plants/less supply, high demand = higher prices.

Trouble is, on the trade book publishing side of things, there seems to be a "you first..." mentality about raising prices. Eventually everyone is going to have to raise retail prices, but no one wants to be first... Those unwilling to raise prices are already on a downward slope to going out of business, even if they don't quite realize it yet, because sales are still strong.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> But on a semi-related note...the other day, someone on Facebook balked at the price of the DevilRays, because of the Seiko movements in them. Before I green-light production of a new model, I do a fair bit of competitive analysis, in order to determine the reasonable range of pricing, so I'm always certain that our prices aren't outside that range.


Speaking of Seiko, this is a super cool NH35 powered vintage Zodiac frankenwatch I just saw posted in a different thread. It's now a sort of Corsair not automatic, because the NH35's rotor wouldn't fit in the old Zodiac case.


----------



## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Re Tribus, I had a little wander through the CW forum and the main emotion is one of disappointment. While Christopher Ward has a lot of good will, most of his former customers would have been fans of value divers of which there are none on the site.

What is extraordinary is the Liverpool FC tie in. Tottenham have a tie in with IWC and Chelsea hzve a tie in with Hublot. Liverpool are way bigger than both.

_"As part of the agreement, the brand will be granted visibility around the club's Anfield stadium, including on the stadium clock. It will also have a presence on the Merseyside club's digital platforms, as well being granted access to first-team players and club legends to support activation."_


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> OK, that's cool... how do you set the date?





Davekaye90 said:


> I'm guessing it's not quick-set? Pretty sure that's how the Globemaster works. Jump the hour past 12am, and it'll advance to the next day. If it can also _reverse _the date, that would be a _big_ deal, as VERY few GMTs have that ability.


If, as Dave suggests, it's like most of the pricey GMTs, you have to run the hour hand around the horn repeatedly until you get to the correct day. I have one of the old Omega 25th anniversary GMTs, and that's how it works. It's one of the few I keep on a winder. For that very reason. Those guys who criticize the cheaper GMT movements gloss over this aspect. It can be a pain to set if you let it get way off...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Rekindling this relationship:
























I like them all but this is my favorite for now:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I think the small seconds field watch is the most cohesive, the rest definitely do nothing for me. The TRI-05 303 Squadron certainly is "ambitiously priced" for a 3-hand field watch with a Sellita SW-200. At least they do a semi-decent job of explaining the bit of aircraft metal that you're paying basically $2K to have placed into your otherwise ordinary field watch. I don't remember the exact details, but I think the fabric that Bremont used in their "Wright Flyer" was surplus recovered and wasn't even on the actual plane.


It was NOT salvaged from the plane, which is a national treasure, owned by the government, housed in the Smithsonian.

It was surplus material. Basically, it came from the Wright Brothers' garage.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> It's hard for a lot of people to comprehend. In my position, I get caught between sales and marketing (lower prices!) and the bean counters (we aren't making margin!). Lately, consolidation of manufacturing plants has decreased domestic production capacity leading to lower supply, higher demand... and yes, higher pricing with longer lead times. Same thing with paper - closed plants/less supply, high demand = higher prices.
> 
> Trouble is, on the trade book publishing side of things, there seems to be a "you first..." mentality about raising prices. Eventually everyone is going to have to raise retail prices, but no one wants to be first... Those unwilling to raise prices are already on a downward slope to going out of business, even if they don't quite realize it yet, because sales are still strong.


I went through this mental exercise over the last two years. My thought process was basically this:

1. If I'm doing a good job of aligning production to demand, my production pace and sales pace will be about the same, and I'll have good inventory turnover.

2. But, if that's true, then as I produce new inventory, it'll be at a higher price than I paid before, forcing me to either raise prices, or run my business on less margin.

3. Meanwhile, if my competitors are NOT turning their inventory over as quickly as I am, then they could be selling inventory produced at lower costs, for a longer time. If we start out with me being equal to 10% higher, and I raise prices 5% per year (I'm making the numbers up), but they hold prices steady, pretty soon, I'll be 15% higher, than 20%, etc.

4. Additionally, not only will my competitors not HAVE to raise prices (since they're not seeing the same cost increases I am, if they're not producing inventory as quickly), they'll probably be afraid to raise prices, even if they could justify it, just to keep up with me and the market, because the very reason they have that inventory is slower sales. What sort of lunatic raises prices on slow-selling product?

5. Thus, the longer it takes my competitors to sell through the inventory they produced at lower costs, the longer it will be before they make new inventory at higher costs, the longer it will take for them to raise prices. I'll feel more pressure to hold prices down, and/or the price gap will widen over time, and the more it will seem like my prices are too high by comparison.

I've basically been doing everything I can to avoid raising prices as long as I could, and trying my best to add value in any way I can, in order to help substantiate my prices. But ultimately, and inevitably, I can't help it. I have to raise prices, whether I like it or not, to keep my business viable, regardless of what my competition is doing.

Eventually, the competition will catch up. It's only a question of when. And it seems like the answer is that we're starting to see it now, after two years of me saying it was going to happen eventually.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> I went through this mental exercise over the last two years. My thought process was basically this:
> 
> 1. If I'm doing a good job of aligning production to demand, my production pace and sales pace will be about the same, and I'll have good inventory turnover.
> 
> ...


What about Zelos who is putting out watches constantly and those in production now. His swordfish(1000 produced) sold for 48% cheaper than the devil ray and his mako is 35% cheaper than the subs? Also isn't Atticus producing his line of watches from your vendor and he's priced @$450(range was 400-500)? Maybe prices have gone up slightly but who are the competitors that are selling old inventory at cheaper prices and how is Atticus profitable 200 less than you are?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Annndddd....related to GMT's, this is interesting.
> 
> Just popping up in my FB feed today is a new brand launching, apparently by the sons of Christopher Ward, "Tribus".
> 
> ...


I judged. Not one thing I'd ever even consider. Bunch of generic fashion designs, half eaten numbers, most models on crappy straps. Ugh. The answer to a question nobody asked. Sorry, not listening to what mama said about not saying anything if...


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I didn't even look at the prices. Expected that everything I was seeing was $500-800. They are in for a rude awakening unless they hired Bremont's marketing firm


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> What about Zelos who is putting out watches constantly and those in production now. His swordfish(1000 produced) sold for 48% cheaper than the devil ray and his mako is 35% cheaper than the subs? Also isn't Atticus producing his line of watches from your vendor and he's priced @$450(range was 400-500)? Maybe prices have gone up slightly but who are the competitors that are selling old inventory at cheaper prices and how is Atticus profitable 200 less than you are?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> If, as Dave suggests, it's like most of the pricey GMTs, you have to run the hour hand around the horn repeatedly until you get to the correct day. I have one of the old Omega 25th anniversary GMTs, and that's how it works. It's one of the few I keep on a winder. For that very reason. Those guys who criticize the cheaper GMT movements gloss over this aspect. It can be a pain to set if you let it get way off...
> 
> View attachment 15441393


See, that particular Omega is pretty much my grail. But this is exactly what I was afraid of. I have a Vostok I wear in rotation once a month, the day after the date it stopped last month. Probably the Omega would have to be either the same deal, or be pretty much an only watch. I bet it doesn't even have the Vostok date set cheat...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

92gli said:


> I didn't even look at the prices. Expected that everything I was seeing was $500-800. They are in for a rude awakening unless they hired Bremont's marketing firm


The football tie-in...


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> The football tie-in...


Well, I guess that works. The other guys already took the military, old ships, old airplanes, arctic exploration...


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> See, that particular Omega is pretty much my grail. But this is exactly what I was afraid of. I have a Vostok I wear in rotation once a month, the day after the date it stopped last month. Probably the Omega would have to be either the same deal, or be pretty much an only watch. I bet it doesn't even have the Vostok date set cheat...


Oris' solution to this problem on their World Timer (which isn't really a world timer) is genius. It has a bi-directional jump hour set with the rotating bezel, and the date is tied to the jump hour, and will engage in reverse if you reverse the hour past 12am. Crown position 1 is quick-set date, and position 2 hacks the movement and sets local and home time.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15441621


Casio makes a diver for $100. Rolex makes one for $10,000. They look a lot alike. I'm outraged. No, wait. I'm not.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Oris' solution to this problem on their World Timer (which isn't really a world timer) is genius. It has a bi-directional jump hour set with the rotating bezel, and the date is tied to the jump hour, and will engage in reverse if you reverse the hour past 12am. Crown position 1 is quick-set date, and position 2 hacks the movement and sets local and home time.


OK, that's cool. Another rabbit hole...


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## ThatoneDude (Feb 3, 2018)

Oh, man.

I know the NTH Santa Fe was a limited release, and I dig it. (Any similar watches out there to the Santa Fe?)

Was the Vintage white Nacken also limited release?

I also missed out on the Holland. Oh man it's emotional.


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## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

As a lifelong salesman; when in doubt, raise your price.

In my experience the purchase decision is one of emotion, supported with the right set of facts to back up the desire. Is there a real difference between $750 and $850 for an object truly desired? I'd argue no.

Anyone who can spend the $750 can also spend the $850, it's just whether they want to.

As an outside observer and follower of the brand for a few years I find it hard to believe that a marginal increase in price would significantly impact NTHs take rate.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Not thrilled about Tribus... In some ways, it seems a lot of the more problematic design elements that were present in chris ward watches in the past couple of years have "migrated over" to Tribus designs. ... Just as CW (the brand) is starting to make more and more great looking stuff.

As for the "sons" as a work-around for non-compete.. Maybe, it's an interesting idea for sure. I'm not familiar enough with the early Christopher Ward or whatever he did to earn so much goodwill - so idk what the implication of him being at Tribus means. From a general look at the pricing, designs, and the tie-ins & story, I frankly cannot see Tribus being a massive success. At least, not based on the usual WIS-like people you see hereabouts.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> OK, that's cool. Another rabbit hole...


There were also earlier versions that used twin pushers in place of the bezel. Not as cool of a concept, but did allow them to make a bunch of different watch styles offering the dual time zone/jump hour/quick-set date ability. Like the new one these use AM/PM indicators for home time instead of a 24-hour hand. I think they should take a page out of Rolex's playbook and make a fluted bezel on one of their dress watches that rotates, like the Sky-Dweller.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm guessing it's not quick-set? Pretty sure that's how the Globemaster works. Jump the hour past 12am, and it'll advance to the next day. If it can also _reverse _the date, that would be a _big_ deal, as VERY few GMTs have that ability.


Sorry for the late reply. I just checked and it is quick-set - advancing and reversing the main hour hand past 12 changes the date forward AND backwards.

The date ticks forward around the 12 mark, but ticks back once the hour hand goes back past 11 (or maybe 10 - I forget).

Very, very impressive for the price.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ThatoneDude said:


> Oh, man.
> 
> I know the NTH Santa Fe was a limited release, and I dig it. (Any similar watches out there to the Santa Fe?)
> 
> ...


I try to never say never, about making more of anything.

That said...

I seriously doubt we'll ever make more of the Santa Fe.

We made 100 of the Nacken Vintage White. I don't foresee making more, at least not any time soon.

I don't think we'll ever make more of the Holland. Someone in our FB fans group was selling one recently. It may still be available. I'm not sure, but I think this is it - FS - NTH Holland (Rare) 26/50

Your next shot at a full-lume dial NTH is the upcoming Scorpène White - Scorpène - White - Expected October 2020, which will be no-date only, but available on the oyster or BOR bracelet, and also be available in a DLC version (oyster only).


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

Davekaye90 said:


> There were also earlier versions that used twin pushers in place of the bezel. Not as cool of a concept, but did allow them to make a bunch of different watch styles offering the dual time zone/jump hour/quick-set date ability. Like the new one these use AM/PM indicators for home time instead of a 24-hour hand. I think they should take a page out of Rolex's playbook and make a fluted bezel on one of their dress watches that rotates, like the Sky-Dweller.


I have this version, which is a really handy travel watch. So easy to set the local time back and forth with the pushers. I've always thought it was the best implementation of a dual time, complete hours-minutes subdial with pushers to set local time. It's like a more affordable version of the countless Ulysse Nardin Dual Time variations.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

devilsbite said:


> As a lifelong salesman; when in doubt, raise your price.
> 
> In my experience the purchase decision is one of emotion, supported with the right set of facts to back up the desire. Is there a real difference between $750 and $850 for an object truly desired? I'd argue no.
> 
> ...


As a general rule, I agree, but no doubt you understand that as the owner of the brand, I'm leery of being too hasty when making decisions that can impact the bottom line.

I've spent a lot of time looking at product pricing, thinking about it, researching, theorizing, etc. There's a lot of psychology to it. It's both art and science.

I have a theory and methodology I use when setting prices. I believe that there's a "safe" or reasonable range my business should stay within, for strategic reasons, as well as out of necessity. The business is built to operate effectively within that range.

Is a $25 price increase going to make a huge difference? More often than not, it probably wouldn't. There's little mental difference between $425 and $450.

But I've observed how buyer behavior changes when prices cross certain thresholds, like $300 and $500. I think there's another change at $700. It'll take time for the market to adjust its expectations to align with the new normal, and for those inflection points to shift upward.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Not thrilled about Tribus... In some ways, it seems a lot of the more problematic design elements that were present in chris ward watches in the past couple of years have "migrated over" to Tribus designs. ... Just as CW (the brand) is starting to make more and more great looking stuff.
> 
> As for the "sons" as a work-around for non-compete.. Maybe, it's an interesting idea for sure. I'm not familiar enough with the early Christopher Ward or whatever he did to earn so much goodwill - so idk what the implication of him being at Tribus means. From a general look at the pricing, designs, and the tie-ins & story, I frankly cannot see Tribus being a massive success. At least, not based on the usual WIS-like people you see hereabouts.


CW's launch pre-dates my interest in watches, but my understanding was that the original "pitch" from the brand was that they were making affordable, Swiss-made watches with a British twist. It was the affordability which built the goodwill, just as their occasionally steep price-hikes eroded some of that goodwill.

Tribus clearly isn't trying to be affordable. Just the opposite, their higher prices, as well as the "we pay your import duties" type stuff emphasizes the "luxury" aspirations of the brand.

Now, I'm only speculating, but there seems to be a bit of a watchmaking Renaissance happening in the UK recently. Perhaps Tribus is meant to follow in the footsteps of Bremont, skipping over the early stages of CW.

Brands like Bremont and CW get most of the fanfare, but I've been very impressed with how quickly the likes of Farer, Schofield and Pinion have been able to launch and establish their bona fides. Likewise, the UK is home to the reborn Vertex, Elliot Brown, and the reborn Alsta, among others.

I'm not trying to throw shade at any of these brands, but none of them are what folks around here would call "great value". They may not be forum favorites (at least not in the affordables sub-forum), but many of them seem to be getting praise from the horological press, and riding a rising tide of apparent interest in British watchmaking.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Both Pinion and Farer are offering a quality proposition so not great value no, but they're also probably not so worried about the impact of an increase in production costs.

_"British watch company, Pinion make fine watches built for exceptional performance. Designed, assembled and tested to exacting standards we use high-quality watch movements to create robust timepieces for daily use in challenging environments."

"Unlike many mainstream brands, we don't hide where we make our watches. We proudly design in Britain before working closely with our Swiss manufacturing partners, Roventa-Henex, who use the very best materials and techniques to handcraft every watch. Like anything in life, there are no short cuts. The expertise of our production is reflected in the accuracy of the measurements, the rigour of testing and the flawless attention to detail at every stage.
All our watches are designed to stand the test of time, which is why every Farer watch comes with a five-year movement guarantee. For us, luxury means doing the little things well and none more so than when it comes to intricate timepieces. This is our promise to you and a 100% guarantee that we back up what we offer."_

Both reference high quality movements. Schofield is aiming at a much narrower market segment but their language of disruptive luxury will resonate with some I've worked with. Small batches, eye watering price - they're not the only ones.

@docvail I'd be interested to know whether there are any of your competitors where you're thinking, yeah they've made it, I'd love to be in their shoes.

And personally, I'd prefer an Amphion Modern to any of the British 'quality' products you alluded to.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaah said:


> Both Pinion and Farer are offering a quality proposition so not great value no, but they're also probably not so worried about the impact of an increase in production costs.
> 
> _"British watch company, Pinion make fine watches built for exceptional performance. Designed, assembled and tested to exacting standards we use high-quality watch movements to create robust timepieces for daily use in challenging environments."
> 
> ...


My point in mentioning Pinion and Farer didn't relate to my earlier comment about rising costs. It was just in response to X2's comment about Tribus.

That said - I believe rising costs are going to be a factor no matter where a company's production is supposedly located. Labor rates and other costs aren't going down in Switzerland or elsewhere in Europe. We're not yet at the point where 3D printing or automated manufacturing are viable solutions for most of the industry.

All that said - luxury branding is an intricate game. It's not just about quality, in fact I'd argue quality isn't even the primary driver of demand. It's all about exclusivity, "prestige", and other intangibles, things which make price-vs-specs comparisons largely moot.

I don't know if either Pinion or Farer is hitting that mark. They seem to be priced comparably, around $900-$1000 for a basic three-hander with 2824-2 or SW200. That's not all the way out of the under $1000 "affordable" range, nor is it deep into the "luxury" range. But it is into the range where buyers tend to want a more compelling reason to part with their money.

What they seem to be doing well enough is telling their stories the right way, to the right people, in the right places. I wasn't blown away by the quality of Farers I've held. They weren't bad, just not appreciably better than the best micros you can buy for $300-$400 less. The difference is in the PERCEPTION, which is being driven by their story-telling, which is something a lot of micros could and should learn from.

The Venn diagram of brands I consider competitors and businesses I admire doesn't have very much overlap. It's not that I don't admire many brands' businesses. I do. It's just that most of those I admire, I don't see as being my real competition.

I try to learn and apply what lessons I can from any business that seems to be successful. But the ones that stand out to me, for various reasons, and in no particular order, are Chris Ward, Lum-Tec, Steinhart, and Bernhardt.

The one common denominator between them is that they all appear to have achieved sustainable scale, but each has gotten there via a different path.

Chris Ward and Steinhart have both focused primarily on selling direct to customers, and on keeping their product Euro-focused ("Swiss Made", "German", "British" are integral to their brand identities). Whereas Chris Ward has long since abandoned any pretense at being "affordable", Steinhart has remained a persistent value leader. It shows that it's possible to carve out a niche at either end of the mid-market.

Lum-Tec's business is primarily done through retail partners, rather than direct to customers. I like that they built their brand around one very effective hook - their lume. They don't mess about with dress watches or try to be all things to all people. They make very toolish tool watches, exclusively. Chris Wiegand is VERY smart. A number of other micros are sourcing their product through him, which adds another dimension and revenue stream to his business, one very few other brands have.

Bernhardt is Fred Amos's retirement business, which is somewhat inspirational to me, as it's easier for me to envision myself working at his age than it is to see myself not working. While Bernhardt may not be the forum favorite it once seemed to be (when I joined in 2012), Fred does A LOT of business with law enforcement organizations. I think that's his real bread-and-butter, not the people who go on his website to buy a Binnacle Diver. It's not your typical retailer network, but it's not really direct-to-customer, either. Like Chris Wiegand, Fred also helps some others with sourcing product for their own businesses.

Somewhat like Chris Ward and Steinhart, Lum-Tec and Bernhardt exist at opposite ends of the mid-market. Lum-Tec's prices are generally ~20% higher than what I think most comparable microbrands could charge, whereas Bernhardt seems entrenched at the entry-point of this range, with his most popular products still priced under $300.

Like I said, I don't see any of them as being my real direct competition. The closest would be Steinhart and Lum-Tec, I think, based on style and pricing. But I doubt very many people are cross-shopping NTH with either.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a heads up, nothing to do with NTH, but Watch Gauge just added some of those hot Timex Q models today, and a special edition Snoopy Marlin.









Timex


QUALITY TIMEKEEPING SINCE 1854 Our roots date back to 1854 in Waterbury, Conneticut, a time when how you made something was just as important as what you made.




watchgauge.com


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> CW's launch pre-dates my interest in watches, but my understanding was that the original "pitch" from the brand was that they were making affordable, Swiss-made watches with a British twist. It was the affordability which built the goodwill, just as their occasionally steep price-hikes eroded some of that goodwill.


The original pitch was super-affordability, claiming to be literally the lowest cost Swiss movement watch you could buy. They sold the first Malvern (a perfectly nice dress watch with very good finishing and a 2824) for 100 pounds. They kept costs down by (1) selling direct (a rarity at the time), and (2) casing the Swiss movements in Asia. (My early CW says "Swiss movt" on the dial instead of "Swiss made".) Then ETA refused to sell them movements unless they cased in Switzerland. So they morphed into a more standard company selling fluff ("we're British!" "a race car driver wears our watch!") at higher prices. I presume they also noticed at some point that being the low-price leader and having small volume is not the road to riches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The beginning and ending of your post could almost be written by two different watch-geeks...



Avo said:


> The original pitch was super-affordability, claiming to be literally the lowest cost Swiss movement watch you could buy. They sold the first Malvern (a perfectly nice dress watch with very good finishing and a 2824) for 100 pounds. They kept costs down by (1) *selling direct (a rarity at the time)*, and (2) casing the Swiss movements in Asia. (My early CW says "Swiss movt" on the dial instead of "Swiss made".)


Lots of people think that selling direct helps keep costs down. They're wrong. $hltty quality and/or service keeps costs down.

It's the old "cutting out the middle man" fallacy. I don't care how many men there are. All the same tasks need to be performed, in order to get the product from the factory's door to the customer's door. Each and every one of those tasks needs to be compensated, whether it's one person doing them, or one hundred.

When someone claims they're saving money by cutting out the middle man, I ask which tasks are now not being done, or, which ones are still being done, but the person doing them is no longer being compensated.

For proof, look no further than any company shrinking its workforce, and asking the remaining employees to pick up the slack by taking on more responsibility, but with no increase in pay, and no decrease in work volume.

Asking fewer people to do more, for less - that's the genesis of $hltty quality and/or service.



Avo said:


> Then ETA refused to sell them movements unless they cased in Switzerland. So they morphed into a more standard company selling fluff ("we're British!" "a race car driver wears our watch!") at higher prices. *I presume they also noticed at some point that being the low-price leader and having small volume is not the road to riches.*


It's not even the road to break-even, at least not in this industry, based on what I've seen.

When I was preparing for the last session of Microbrand University, I went super-nerd with my research into pricing theory. I stumbled over "Porter's Generic Strategies" (y'all feel free to Google that). Porter helped explain a lot of things many of us sort of know intuitively, but struggle to recognize and understand when put into practice.

What Porter says about cost leadership is objectively unassailable. The only company that "wins" in a low-cost competition is the one that can consistently have the lowest costs - not the lowest prices, mind you (though that's often the goal), but the lowest cost of delivering a product or service.

In this industry, there's really no true cost leadership to be found. The only way to lower costs is to sacrifice quality or service. Any company charging substantially less than their competitors (who all have comparable costs) for offering the same level of quality and service isn't going to make it in the long term.

If you remove cost leadership as a viable strategy, the only alternative is differentiation, which is what CW was trying to do by emphasizing their British roots and tying their brand to sports celebrities.

Every watch brand struggles with this (yes, EVERY brand). We're all selling a product with the same basic function - telling time. Assuming they all tell time well enough, the reason someone would buy any watch that isn't the lowest-cost watch is how that person perceives the more expensive watch to be different than the least expensive watch.

As an experiment, pay attention to what you see brands talking about. Take note of how many mention their price, or value, and how often, versus how many lay claim to something arguably unique, something which is NOT in any way related to their price or the "bang for the buck" their product offers.

The ones talking the most about price and value are generally the ones who are losing in competition.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Avo said:


> The original pitch was super-affordability, claiming to be literally the lowest cost Swiss movement watch you could buy. They sold the first Malvern (a perfectly nice dress watch with very good finishing and a 2824) for 100 pounds. They kept costs down by (1) selling direct (a rarity at the time), and (2) casing the Swiss movements in Asia. (My early CW says "Swiss movt" on the dial instead of "Swiss made".) Then ETA refused to sell them movements unless they cased in Switzerland. So they morphed into a more standard company selling fluff ("we're British!" "a race car driver wears our watch!") at higher prices. I presume they also noticed at some point that being the low-price leader and having small volume is not the road to riches.


This is where I was coming from I guess; in order to be sustainable CW took a decision to market themselves as a quality luxury brand and in order to do that they needed a Swiss movement. ETA forced that choice on them but once they had taken that path, they can increase prices on the back of new higher spec products to wherever they can find a comfortable position in the market.



docvail said:


> What they seem to be doing well enough is telling their stories the right way, to the right people, in the right places. I wasn't blown away by the quality of Farers I've held. They weren't bad, just not appreciably better than the best micros you can buy for $300-$400 less. The difference is in the PERCEPTION, which is being driven by their story-telling, which is something a lot of micros could and should learn from.


I agree totally. Buying a watch is essentially an emotional purchase decision, if you can give the buyer a quality based justification and increase the emotional draw, they will be prepared to pay multiples more.

Thank you for that lengthy response, it's really interesting. I'd not come across Bernhardt before but only $269 for an automatic watch seems unnecessarily cheap.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Baldrick said:


> Sorry for the late reply. I just checked and it is quick-set - advancing and reversing the main hour hand past 12 changes the date forward AND backwards.
> 
> The date ticks forward around the 12 mark, but ticks back once the hour hand goes back past 11 (or maybe 10 - I forget).
> 
> ...


That's not what quick-set is. My SPB081 was two days behind when I took it out of the watch box this morning, so I rolled it over two days from crown position 1 - click, click, done. That's quick-set date. Without that I would have to roll the hour hand all the way around twice. Jump-hour watches like the Globemaster use crown position 1 for the jump-hour function without stopping the movement, but it doesn't have quick-set.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Aaah said:


> I'd not come across Bernhardt before but only $269 for an automatic watch seems unnecessarily cheap.


Does it? There are loads of Seiko 5s where the movement inside is $40, and the rest of the watch is another $40. I've not handled one of their watches before, but I'm curious how it would stack up against something like an Orient Kamasu, which is basically the same price and very similar spec wise.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> Does it? There are loads of Seiko 5s where the movement inside is $40, and the rest of the watch is another $40. I've not handled one of their watches before, but I'm curious how it would stack up against something like an Orient Kamasu, which is basically the same price and very similar spec wise.


Seiko couldn't be less like a microbrand, maybe @docvail was wrong and there is one company that have achieved cost leadership. I don't think a microbrand can compete down there and shouldn't be trying to, it suggests a lack of confidence in their own quality given they can't compete on efficiency of production. But clearly I'm wrong and they are making it work.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Does it? There are loads of Seiko 5s where the movement inside is $40, and the rest of the watch is another $40. I've not handled one of their watches before, but I'm curious how it would stack up against something like an Orient Kamasu, which is basically the same price and very similar spec wise.


Beating the dead horse further - we should all agree there's more to a watch (and its price) than the movement. I don't think we should be comparing Bernhardt to Seiko 5's.

I'm 90% sure that prices for the Binnacle Anchor and Binnacle Diver aren't more than $20 higher than they were when I joined the forum in 2012. I think their prices might even be unchanged. That's pretty amazing. People thought they were great value 8 years ago. As such, people should think they're an amazing value today.

Meanwhile, people are frequently and loudly grousing about Seiko's recent price increases.

Apples and oranges.

To me, it's not just the fact that Fred can still make and sell those watches for the same price he did 8 years ago, it's that he was able to rationalize selling in that price range 8 years ago, and apparently still can.

I can't conceivably sell enough watches under $400-$500 to make it worth my time and energy developing a model to sell at those prices. Fred's built a business around an even lower price, in the most competitive price range there is - the under $400 mass market.

I have zero doubt that if he should have raised prices by now, he would have. He's not stupid, nor is he desperate for sales. The reason he hasn't is that he hasn't felt any pressure to. He's held his prices down because he can. I can't think of any other businesses that can say that, not even Seiko.

Think about that. Try to imagine the sort of operational efficiency that man has achieved in his business. It's a thing of stunning beauty, for anyone who can appreciate a well-run business (and I'm one of them).

I've met Fred once, and spoken to him on the phone a half dozen times. He's given me valuable advice, and had me laughing so hard my belly hurt. While every other brand has been riding the market tides, up and down, Fred's has remained as constant as the North Star. For that, he's one of my business heroes.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

The only watch selling companies that have actually cut out the “middle man”:

Crystaltimes 
Namokimods

Etc.

Still costs me around $5-600 to assemble a watch from new parts. That’s CDN dollars. Zero economy of scale on my end. The quality of parts is decent in that range (think Seiko Turtle) but, (for instance) much lower than NTH. My staff works for free. I have zero sales.

People who make and sell watches for a living are loonies.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Lots of people think that selling direct helps keep costs down. They're wrong.


Well that was the claim in CW's marketing material back in the day. I've no basis to judge how true it was or wasn't. They did sell some nice watches damn cheap for a while. I paid $250 for my 2824-equipped "Malvern C5 Aviator Mark I" circa 2010, and that was after their prices had already gone up some. And they then had to fix it twice under warranty, which they did, paying postage to and from England both times. (Though the 2nd trip was their fault for not fixing it correctly the first time.)


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Aaah said:


> Seiko couldn't be less like a microbrand, maybe @docvail was wrong and there is one company that have achieved cost leadership. I don't think a microbrand can compete down there and shouldn't be trying to, it suggests a lack of confidence in their own quality given they can't compete on efficiency of production. But clearly I'm wrong and they are making it work.


That's true, but that's not the point. If the question is, "is $270 unnecessarily cheap for an automatic" I would argue, no, it isn't. Those 5s tell time and wind with the movement of your wrist well enough. Everything that the Binnacle or the Kamasu have that they don't are additional features beyond the most basic function of automatic time keeping - dive time bezel, WR, sapphire crystal, threaded crown, etc. All of that stuff is nice to have, none of it is strictly "necessary" for the most basic function of the watch.

Of course there are also the intangibles. How much is good design "worth?" That stuff is all subjective. Nobody has a gun to their head making them charge $270, and not a penny more! They can charge $370 or $470 if they want. That won't stop large companies like Orient or small companies like Phoibos from undercutting them, so if you want to charge more than those companies, you've got to deliver something, whatever it is, that they don't or can't.


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> Beating the dead horse further - we should all agree there's more to a watch (and its price) than the movement. I don't think we should be comparing Bernhardt to Seiko 5's.
> 
> I'm 90% sure that prices for the Binnacle Anchor and Binnacle Diver aren't more than $20 higher than they were when I joined the forum in 2012. I think their prices might even be unchanged. That's pretty amazing. People thought they were great value 8 years ago. As such, people should think they're an amazing value today.
> 
> ...


So how is he doing it? How does he keep his costs so low?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kak1154 said:


> So how is he doing it? How does he keep his costs so low?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> So how is he doing it? How does he keep his costs so low?


Feel free to ask him.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> That's not what quick-set is. My SPB081 was two days behind when I took it out of the watch box this morning, so I rolled it over two days from crown position 1 - click, click, done. That's quick-set date. Without that I would have to roll the hour hand all the way around twice. Jump-hour watches like the Globemaster use crown position 1 for the jump-hour function without stopping the movement, but it doesn't have quick-set.


Sorry, yes, brain fart by me. So I think one has to advance the jump hour twice around the dial.

The reason I only _think_ that rather than _know_ is that the watch came with no manual or instructions. I actually just stopped by the store this morning to check they hadn't missed it and they told me they don't provide them. Bit odd.

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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

More memories. The Binnacle Diver was one of my first automatic watches. Had mod hands and relume from MCWW. Great, great watch. Better bracelet than many watches 5-10x the price.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> That's true, but that's not the point. If the question is, "is $270 unnecessarily cheap for an automatic" I would argue, no, it isn't. Those 5s tell time and wind with the movement of your wrist well enough. Everything that the Binnacle or the Kamasu have that they don't are additional features beyond the most basic function of automatic time keeping - dive time bezel, WR, sapphire crystal, threaded crown, etc. All of that stuff is nice to have, none of it is strictly "necessary" for the most basic function of the watch.
> 
> Of course there are also the intangibles. How much is good design "worth?" That stuff is all subjective. Nobody has a gun to their head making them charge $270, and not a penny more! They can charge $370 or $470 if they want. That won't stop large companies like Orient or small companies like Phoibos from undercutting them, so if you want to charge more than those companies, you've got to deliver something, whatever it is, that they don't or can't.


I feel we're going round in circles a bit without really disagreeing on much.

Yes, whatever you make, highly efficient mass production at Seiko or similar will be able to produce higher quality for less in theory. In practice it seems Bernhardt can compete.

And yes, they could charge more, I was expressing surprise that they didn't feel any need to. And yes you have to deliver something that Far Eastern mass producers can't. You can do it freely or very cheaply as long as you can successfully marry product and story-line e.g. heritage, US build and design, emotive tie-in with local public servants, bits of vintage vehicles embedded in the case, hand crafting (of something, it doesn't matter what), celebration of some feat of exploration, the list is endless.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Well that was the claim in CW's marketing material back in the day. I've no basis to judge how true it was or wasn't. They did sell some nice watches damn cheap for a while. I paid $250 for my 2824-equipped "Malvern C5 Aviator Mark I" circa 2010, and that was after their prices had already gone up some. And they then had to fix it twice under warranty, which they did, paying postage to and from England both times. (Though the 2nd trip was their fault for not fixing it correctly the first time.)


I understood that's what they said at the time. My point was - look at what's changed since then. They went from "cutting out the middle man to save you money" to not even bothering to talk about their value any more.

At some point, they realized that they needed to differentiate in a way that was't based on their price.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Asking fewer people to do more, for less - that's the genesis of $hltty quality and/or service.


It's also the difference between the disgrace that is the SLS, and the contrast that is SpaceX.

Asking more people to do less, for more, is also going to lead nowhere.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's also the difference between the disgrace that is the SLS, and the contrast that is SpaceX.
> 
> Asking more people to do less, for more, is also going to lead nowhere.


I don't know what "SLS" means in this context.

I may have let my contempt for the state of corporate America show through with my earlier comment. I've seen too many examples of how treating employees like numbers leads to declining fortunes.

Not looking to open up a political discussion, but whereas the trend with big companies seems to be trying to squeeze more work out of fewer people, being paid less money, the organizations which have more people doing less work for more money tend to be government organizations, at least here in the USA (and the quality of their service also sucks).

I'm not sure which I hold in greater contempt.

Setting that philosophical dilemma aside, my main point was the lingering fallacies under which much of the watch industry and market continue to labor.

There really is no savings from selling direct to customers vs through retail, if you adjust for the difference in work and sales volume each of those scenarios entails.

Likewise, "making it up on volume" is only possible when the business is able to scale to the point they can achieve extreme operational efficiency, which is very difficult to do in the watch industry, especially for boutique brands.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

William Wood









British
Fire Service homage
Recycling
Vintage diver looks
Vintage Firefighters' brass helmet in the crown
"Excellent Swiss Movement "
Loads of strap options
Very detailed description on the website
1200 USD please, taking orders for November on three month batches








The Red Watch


Welcome to William Wood Watches - Valiant Collection - a fully stainless steel Automatic diving watch equipped with a choice of either a Swiss Sellita SW200 or Seiko Group NH35 Automatic movement. We pored over the design of our Valiant Collection for months and have come up with a watch that...




williamwoodwatches.com


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

This has gone pretty far from being about NTH. I was wearing this, yesterday...:










Sorry, bad quality photo. But you get the gist of it. This ends up in rotation about once/week among the other regulars in my collection. Always brings a smile to my face. Especially when I wear it outside and then go inside, some shadier areas of the house or garage, and _pop_ Hello, lume!

Talk of Bernhardt got me check out out their offerings again. Dang. The Captain's Watch - 38mm, 9015 movement... less than $300?!? And we were just talking GMTs not too long ago - ETA 2836 GMT for $550...?


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Good call Mconlonx,

*N*ow is *T*he *H*our for some *NTH,* a change from all of that other dross that seems to litter this thread..........










Have a good weekend each.........

Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaah said:


> William Wood
> View attachment 15444350
> 
> 
> ...


$923.62 for the Seiko-NH equipped version, with 10 ATM WR, on a rubber strap (not a bracelet), with an aluminum bezel insert...

Suddenly every watch from NTH looks like the bargain of the century.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

And then, there is loony hugh goast ryder vershun on fannum phrydae


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> $923.62 for the Seiko-NH equipped version, with 10 ATM WR, on a rubber strap (not a bracelet), with an aluminum bezel insert...
> 
> Suddenly every watch from NTH looks like the bargain of the century.


Yeah, you need to find a relative who was involved in something noble, melt down some of their stuff and use it to decorate the case in some way. Then choose an appropriate name.

Talking of names, does the William Wood 'The Blue Watch' in-joke translate? In the UK, fire services operate in 4 shifts, these shifts are called watches and are always named: Red, Blue, Green & White. There was TV drama called Blue Watch for a while. The Black Watch is something different, it's a Scottish Infantry battalion. The Rose Watch, I have no idea what they were thinking.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaah said:


> Yeah, you need to find a relative who was involved in something noble, melt down some of their stuff and use it to decorate the case in some way. Then choose an appropriate name.
> 
> Talking of names, does the William Wood 'The Blue Watch' in-joke translate? In the UK, fire services operate in 4 shifts, these shifts are called watches and are always named: Red, Blue, Green & White. There was TV drama called Blue Watch for a while. The Black Watch is something different, it's a Scottish Infantry battalion. The Rose Watch, I have no idea what they were thinking.


Nope, that doesn't scan here.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Anyone else have a Gnomon Nacken in their inbox today? I’ll keep my NTH, thank you, but it’s kinda cool. 

One of the things I like about NTH is a logo that in no way resembles a coronet. 


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Anyone else have a Gnomon Nacken in their inbox today? I'll keep my NTH, thank you, but it's kinda cool.
> 
> One of the things I like about NTH is a logo that in no way resembles a coronet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep. With what appears to be an aluminum bezel insert and a Hesalite crystal, it'll be a mega scratch magnet. Definitely not for me.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Gnomon Nacken?

Ohh, you mean a Steinhart.









Idk, the crystal is nice, but everything about the proportions just feels off - wrong hour hand width, wrong square placement, too large of a bezel (and too sloped), case shape is off, text printing is kinda fat... And the yelow is just the wrong shade of piss.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh god. Looking at the marketing fluff Gnomon has written in the product description for that watch... WTF..



> Our loyalty and friendship forged through thick and thin with this German watchmaker forms the foundation upon which we craft a phenomenal watch, fit for a king.


barf



> Spot our company logo proudly laid out at 6 o'clock, perpendicular to the familiar Steinhart logo at 12 o'clock.


Perpendicular = at a right angle. The gnomon logo is parallel to the steinhart logo, not perpendicular.



> Listen to the heartbeat of the ocean with the reliable automatic ETA 2824-2 / SW 200 élaboré movement that powers this Swiss-made timepiece.


????



> This manual-wind movement also allows the case of the watch to be thinner and lighter, fitting comfortably on most wrist sizes.





> Movement
> Swiss ETA2824-2/SW200 Automatic Movement, élaboré





> Polished to perfection, this unidirectional stainless steel bezel displays all the grandeur of this watch in 120 clicks.


The insert is aluminum. And I wouldn't call the grip polishing "perfect"...



> These features have distinguished military tool watches back then and still set this timepiece apart today. In contrast with most military divers in the past that typically come in a black colour scheme, this watch showcases a modern twist of blue.


Yeah, because the famous Tudor navy watch had a black dial, right? 



> Not only does this colour change boast a more contemporary look, it also does not deteriorate as quickly.


Oh, so now we know that blue paint is more durable than black paint. WOO!



> Conformed to military requirements in which the first thing that caught my attention the moment I laid my eyes on this watch, was its distinct handset that resembled the beautiful tips of a snowflake. With a delicate diamond shape on its second hand, this handset reminds me of the majestic snow-capped mountains and dainty snowflakes descending upon the earth, forming a fresh new page that awaits playful feet and mittened hands. I can't help but ponder the connection between the intricate snowflake hands and this timepiece's blue colourway. The deep ocean blue tones hint at the melting of snow while its snowflake handset capture the beauty of winter, making this watch perfect for every season. This poetic interpretation of the Ocean 39 Marine Blue serenades me with its gentle charm ...


barf


> ... and it is no wonder that the great visual appeal of its handset, coupled with its great durability and reliability, have caught the eyes of several world militaries.


!! Did _you_ know that the armies of the world are looking for poetic serenading watches that await playful feet and mittened hands? I honestly would've never guessed...



> The squared markers enchant with golden hues that change to a burnt brown colour over time, ... this colour change adds a vintage touch to this timepiece and is caused by the "Old Radium" Super-LumiNova painted onto the markers and handset


Modern lume does not degrade over time. This is just a straight up lie.



> The Ocean 39 Marine Blue comes on a satin-brushed oyster bracelet with screw links and a flip-lock. ... It also brings out the splendeur of this watch, gracing it with a timeless sophistication that is truly one of a kind.


 It's literally a bog standard three-piece oyster bracelet.



> This prime timepiece exudes a sense of adventure


Eww, is it sticky? Does the adventure ooze out over time, or pop out in spurts?



> Do note that only the first 200 pieces with Hesalite crystal and double signed dial will have a unique serial number, reminiscent of military numbering in the 70s and subsequent pieces will be sterile. Hurry and be among the first 200 to get the exclusive collectable Steinhart Ocean 39 Marine Blue. And just like a snowflake, each timepiece is different in its own special way. Presenting la couronne de l'océan, la montre pour toi (the crown of the ocean, the watch for you).


No but seriously, does anyone at all want this kind of sickly ass-kissing? It all just reads so sleazy.

Oh, also this.


















So which is it, 100 or 300?


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Oh god. Looking at the marketing fluff Gnomon has written in the product description for that watch... WTF..
> 
> barf
> 
> ...


Hey it could be worse. It could be a Domino's Pizza Air-King.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

So, reading through doc's thread on the dive watch forum (f74), and seeing the responses.. Some specific ones, regarding the focus on homages, originality of designs, and so on, made me wonder...

Do y'all think there could be a difference between how NTH is seen for those who only know NTH (i.e. post-2016), vs. those who recall the whole Lew & Huey progression (so, pre-2013)?


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> So, reading through doc's thread on the dive watch forum (f74), and seeing the responses.. Some specific ones, regarding the focus on homages, originality of designs, and so on, made me wonder...
> 
> Do y'all think there could be a difference between how NTH is seen for those who only know NTH (i.e. post-2016), vs. those who recall the whole Lew & Huey progression (so, pre-2013)?


A lot of good responses in that thread: Tell me what I can do with NTH to make it appeal more to...

Those that have been with Chris since near the beginning are probably more loyal and more invested in many respects (or we blocked him years ago), but it can be a double-edged sword. I'm pretty sure that, between pre-order discounts and loyalty rewards, I paid less than $400 for my first Nacken.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

So, after testing like 7 different bracelets, including the nth bor & default, I think visually I prefer a stronger taper (even despite the endlinks not fitting as well)...



















I still have one other in the mail, maybe that will work out once it gets here.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> So, reading through doc's thread on the dive watch forum (f74), and seeing the responses.. Some specific ones, regarding the focus on homages, originality of designs, and so on, made me wonder...
> 
> Do y'all think there could be a difference between how NTH is seen for those who only know NTH (i.e. post-2016), vs. those who recall the whole Lew & Huey progression (so, pre-2013)?


I think there's the clubhouse view and the marketplace view. And I think it's great he's looking for the larger impression.

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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> So, after testing like 7 different bracelets, including the nth bor & default, I think visually I prefer a stronger taper (even despite the endlinks not fitting as well)...
> 
> View attachment 15445949
> 
> ...


You just order bracelets and hope they fit? Or do you know they will fit before you buy them? What other ones have you tried?

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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

bolts40 said:


> You just order bracelets and hope they fit? Or do you know they will fit before you buy them? What other ones have you tried?


Neither/either, frankly. Two of the bracelets I knew fitted - the original (came on the watch), and the beads of rice sub bracelet. The others I had around from previous watches/purchases. One of them was a diver style shark mesh - so that one fits any 20mm watch. One was a thick milanese strap that came with a diff. watch. Three, including the one shown above, were older watchgecko bracelets I had from times back, when, yes, I tried buying them (on sale ofc) to see if they fit. (in vast majority of cases, they don't, and tbh I generally don't recommend them)*. That said.. the subs do have a fairly standard profile, and somewhat closely similar to that of certain rolexes. So it should be possible, I think, to fit bracelets made to fit those rolexes to also fit the subs. Ofc I could be wrong.

*- It would be really nice if it were possible to convince docvail to make a proper, well-made bracelet for the subs with a proper taper (20 - 16 at least), with proper (!) endlinks and 3/5-piece polished/brushed design. But that ain't gonna happen (get 500 people etc. etc. ad nauseam)... So what else can one do, but try their luck in the aftermarket bracelet scene.


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Having lunch at work and a bee decided to check out which watch I was wearing.









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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> So, after testing like 7 different bracelets, including the nth bor & default, I think visually I prefer a stronger taper (even despite the endlinks not fitting as well)...
> 
> View attachment 15445949
> 
> ...


That looks really nice. The polished detail reminds me of some Citizen bracelets. Nice small dose of bling. Seems appropriate for Barracuda.

Regarding end link fit (if you're talking about not matching the shape of the lugs), I think that amount of mismatch is totally fine. Either perfectly matched. Or mismatched enough that it doesn't look like they were trying for a match but missed. I have a non-NTH bracelet on a sub that exposes some of the inner face of the lugs like that. There is something satisfying about feeling those lug edges when I adjust the watch with my right hand.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tikuna for some biking and boating. Easier to read on a bike than the G-Shock square I often wear for sweaty activities.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

That thread that Doc started was quite a read. Some of it I definitely agree with, some of it I definitely don't. And while most people didn't bring it up, f*ck I am tired of people putting so much stock into ISO. Mainly because most folks who bring it up have absolutely zero understanding of how it actually works.

I build to ISO quality and safety standards. You want the low down? I'll lay it out in a nutshell.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

ISO is an industrial standard.

There’s no magic.

It’s a checklist.

Yes I simplified.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> ISO is an industrial standard.
> 
> There's no magic.
> 
> ...


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I build to ISO quality and safety standards. You want the low down? I'll lay it out in a nutshell.


As someone who has to participate in annual ISO audits, I'll answer for everyone: No. We don't want the low-down.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

While I initially thought ISO eh who cares, I think there may be some value there, provided it doesn't add a ton of cost to the watch. If nothing else, the vast majority of micro brand divers don't have it. Changing your WR label on your dials from 300m = 1000ft to "Diver's 300M" says a lot with a single word. "We're not F-ing around here." It's very easy for Invicta to sell 1000M "dive watches" that fail at the deep end of a swimming pool, because anyone can print anything on the dial, and the _vast _majority of casual watch enthusiasts are likely to never go any deeper than that, and so they'll never find out.

If you're trying to broaden your appeal specifically to the dive watch community though, they _do _care about that, and your competitors can't print "Diver's" on the dial unless they can back that up with an ISO spec. It also goes beyond simple 125% pressure testing on each individual watch. There are also shock, magnetic, corrosion and thermal shock requirements as well. You can write a couple of paragraphs explaining all of the testing that NTH watches go through, or you can just stamp the ISO "tough dive watch" seal of approval and call it a day.

FWIW, I won't buy a phone that isn't IP68 rated for dust and water resistance. Some smaller companies don't bother with it for similar reasons - an official IP rating adds cost. So they'll just claim their phones are "splash proof" or "water resistant." The problem is that doesn't mean anything. IP68 does, and the big guys like Samsung and LG do certify their phones. I want to know that if I have to jump out of my kayak into the river with my phone in my pocket, which I've done, that it's going to be just fine when I get back in the boat. Your "splash proof" phone doesn't tell me that.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> As someone who has to participate in annual ISO audits, I'll answer for everyone: No. We don't want the low-down.


Auditor? Or auditee(is that a real word?)?

I'm assuming auditee. And man, I feel your pain.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

uvalaw2005 said:


> More memories. The Binnacle Diver was one of my first automatic watches. Had mod hands and relume from MCWW. Great, great watch. Better bracelet than many watches 5-10x the price.
> View attachment 15443950
> 
> View attachment 15443951


Love my Bernhardt. I got Fred's last yellow Binnacle. It's funny because I bought the red version of the same watch about a decade earlier and flipped it because it felt too big for my wrist. But even though my wrist is still skinny it feels fine now. 









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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Amphion Vintage Gilt. Really an outstanding design. Excellent watch. Solid build. No Q/C issues at all. Well worth the retail price in my opinion. Really looking forward to my 2K1 Thresher!









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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

As I was reading through Doc's thread in the Dive watch forum (F74), all I kept thinking was nope, he's not gonna do that, not going to do that, ain't NFW he's going to do THAT! 
My take away was a bunch of wish list stuff that wasn't really helpful. 

1. Do more Instagram, get your watches to some "social influencers " . Barf 
2. Make smaller sizes, 36-38mm, nobody makes dive watches in that range. Really? Seems like everyone is now releasing watches in that range. Do a Google search, I'll wait......
3. Your watches are too expensive, so and so micro brand sells their watches for way less than you. Never mind that you can't actually buy watches from those brands, I'm looking at you Helm, Obris Morgan, ect. 
4. NTH watches are ALWAYS sold out, whenever they go to the website there's NEVER anything in stock. Really, I bought both my Nackern Modern Blue and Brown Barracuda without needing to set a reminder for the release date so I could get one in my cart and checked out inside of two minutes or I didn't get one. I want a Tikuna but want at least 2 2K1 subs so...

While I can appreciate Chris wanting an outside view on expanding NTH as a brand, a lot of what I saw was haters taking the opportunity to grind whatever personal axe they had with him and his business.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah, fun times at that thread. Shame it got taken over by a few haters (jls36, mleok) and derailed. And whoever there said that San Martin is same level of quality as an NTH, they can go f.... themselves, it's a straight up lie.

BUT. This kinda does speak to one problem, docvail clearly needs to do a better job at explaining / showing that his watches are higher quality. And - if I may be so bold - 3D renders absolutely SUCK at showing how good (or bad) the real piece is in the metal.



TheBearded said:


> That thread that Doc started was quite a read. Some of it I definitely agree with, some of it I definitely don't.


Oooof. Yeah. +1.



> And while most people didn't bring it up, f*ck I am tired of people putting so much stock into ISO. Mainly because most folks who bring it up have absolutely zero understanding of how it actually works.


True. However... why do people put so much stock in it, and why do so many people there in the dive watch forum want it? Basically, they want to trust their watches. And they don't simply trust a printed resistance rating - because, yeah, any microbrand can just say "well, our case was kinda built to survive 2000 meters so we'll print 2000m!". Ref. the flooding spinnakers, for example. Like.. I don't trust a heimdallr or invicta, no matter what they print. Would I trust a Zelos? ... tbh I'm not sure. Would I trust an NTH sub? Well, I do, but I've been following what doc does for like 5+ years.

The ISO standard, for better or worse, is a _known indication_ that means "hey, this is actually good for water stuff". For better or worse, that is what lets people trust their Seikos and Citizens. So, here, NTH/docvail should figure out how to give that level of confidence to the new buyers who don't know the ins and outs of the brand from this thread, and only give like 1-2 minute look on the nth website.



Metallman said:


> As I was reading through Doc's thread in the Dive watch forum (F74), all I kept thinking was nope, he's not gonna do that, not going to do that, ain't NFW he's going to do THAT!


Hmm.. Tbh yesterday I kept expecting to see doc lose it and post a huge wall of text argument. I'm glad it didn't happen, that would be the surefire way to ruin any goodwill made there. But it would have been "on brand" for him 



> My take away was a bunch of wish list stuff that wasn't really helpful.


Kinda... but everyone does have their own preferences etc. And tbh, can NTH just continue selling to the regulars in this thread? Can NTH just keep pushing out new palette swaps of the Sub and keep driving that watch platform into the ground? I doubt it. It's not scaling up.

He needs to get new customers - and for new customers, a lot of the impressions will be as stated in that thread: "what's with this website? No real watches, only renders - what, is this a scam or smth?" "Why is everything f***ing sold out / unavailable?" "Why are these prices so high" "Wait why are there like 20-30 versions of the same watch?".


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

As much as the “Divers” ISO standard goes, that might’ve been the most relevant item on F74. 

I do remember a WOT or two from Doc concerning the whole ISO standard as it applies to NTH. I’d hazard a guess that it would lead to a price increase. With the folks pointing out their price “concerns” already.

Plus, even IF NTH were to full court the F74s, it wouldn’t be on anything in or near production. Imagine, reprinting all those dials to add the “S”. 

I wasn’t surprised there were no replies from Doc, it was, after all, a legit question posed(unpaid research). 

I do wonder exactly how many people would actually buy a tiny 36mm dive watch... 18-14 taper, divers rating, expansion clasp, NTH for $800 usd...


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah, fun times at that thread. Shame it got taken over by a few haters (jls36, mleok) and derailed. And whoever there said that San Martin is same level of quality as an NTH, they can go f.... themselves, it's a straight up lie.
> 
> BUT. This kinda does speak to one problem, docvail clearly needs to do a better job at explaining / showing that his watches are higher quality. And - if I may be so bold - 3D renders absolutely SUCK at showing how good (or bad) the real piece is in the metal.
> 
> ...


I'll admit that I saw Doc's armor on ceramic and sapphire start to crack just a little bit over there, and I got excited lol. I do think many of the criticisms of the website are valid. Is it terrible? No. It's definitely not great either. Monta just overhauled their's, and the first thing you see are _massive_, full screen cycling video clips of their watches. That to me shows an immediate sense of confidence that the company has in their products. They are rightfully proud of their level of finishing, and they are showing it off.

Farer - enormous, in the metal pics of their watches. Halios, same deal. and Lum-tec does the same thing as well.

On the NTH site you see.....the rear ends of some divers. If I knew nothing else, the very first second impression I get is "this company sells flippers or wetsuits." Below that, more divers. Maybe they sell oxygen tanks?

Finally we get to the actual watches after quite a bit of scrolling, and they are small CG renders. Only at the very bottom of the page do you see actual pictures of the actual watches you're going to buy. The website could use a MAJOR design overhaul, without question.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Aevig is another example of great site design. They don't have the cycling images of some other sites, but the very first thing you see is a massive Huldra diver. "This is what we do." First impressions are everything. At the other end of the scale, Helson's website _is _terrible. You have to really be interested in a Helson to even want to put up with it.

This also extends to individual models. I just picked the Vanguard at random. 70% of the shots are CG renders. You can enlarge those, but there's no point, you're just looking at a bigger render. A huge render /= a macro shot. I'm not seeing any kind of fine detail, I'm seeing how good somebody is at 3DStudioMax.

The three actual shots of the Vanguard are "fine," but they also look like what they probably are - amateur pictures taken with cellphone cameras.

This on the other hand is a genuinely cool shot. Why am I not seeing more like this? Lead with this, not a Shutter Stock picture of "two divers swimming away from camera."


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Since they get brought up around here a lot, I would also contrast Chris Ward's "Think Small" ad for their new SC diver vs. the NTH videos. Slick production, to the point, focusing on a unique feature that competitor's don't have. Their product photos for the SC are also exactly what I want to see. Direct overhead, wrist shot, lume shot, dial macro shot, close-ups showing off their case finishing, movement shot, and what the hell, why not throw in a shot of the box.

No matter how good a render might be, it will never be able to match real lighting hitting real metal.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I gotta go read that other thread, but a couple things based on what I'm reading here. 

ISO. Don't care. NTH is rated to 300m, and I've gone snorkeling with my Scorpéne. It survived. Good enough. If there ever was water in the watch after swimming, taking a shower, washing a car, etc., and it wasn't my fault, I trust that NTH would deal with it under warranty.

As an enthusiast, I'm fine with renders. And steel bezel inserts. And the NTH website. 

OK, so there's a new, larger sub design - there may be room for a smaller one. It's funny, I pay attention to sales descriptions in f29, and more than once, I've seen CW 38mm divers on sale with "too small, buying larger" as part of the pitch.

Maybe some changes would need to be made on the marketing end of things for NTH to step up to the next level. But the way Doc describes selling most runs out within his 3 mo target window leads me to believe he's not doing much wrong for the WUS/WIS crowd.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

I think the thread gave some decent ideas about marketing that are worth considering, especially about advertising the things that Chris knows make NTH different, and many of us know make NTH different, but are not easily discovered where a new buyer would look. Nodus does a really good job of advertising the additional movement regulation that occurs and using it as a distinguishing value-add; I barely remembered that NTH does regulation at all. I also agree that the website poses a number of dilemmas. Better photos/videos cost money, as does any dive-market specific advertising, and if the NTH subs are selling well without them, it's hard to justify. Maybe the 2k1 gives Chris an opportunity to try some of that out.

NTH is in a weird spot as a micro-brand - where you expect to be able to buy direct - with a retail network that does just the opposite. I understand Chris's reasoning for that model, but the complaints about everything on the website being out-of-stock resonate, and I don't think the "we have a pop-up ad that directs you elsewhere" is really satisfying. It's mitigating, but not satisfying. You want to make buying the watch easy, almost too easy (think Amazon buy-it-now) and the NTH experience is pretty far from that. The best solution I can think of at this point is to go to a full retailer-only model, where the webpage for each model just includes the direct links to the regional vendor's page for that model. But that requires Chris to be able to get his retailers to take all of his inventory, which is a big ask. Like I said, it's a weird no-man's land right now - though it hasn't stopped most Sub models from selling out.

But I think the thread also shows why it is unlikely NTH is ever going to make big inroads at f74. Much of what they profess to value is just not stuff that Chris values, and he's never been one to make a watch he himself doesn't value. He's not going to make the watches cheaper, because he wants to stay in business, so references to the really cheap stuff (Tisell/Sharkey) aren't super helpful. If someone thinks an NTH is similar in quality to a Sharkey, they're probably beyond the reach of any reasonable marketing campaign. And if they just don't want to spend more than $200-$300 - which is a perfectly reasonable decision - there's not much Chris can do about that. Making the subs with Swiss movements and charging $850 or $900 certainly won't help.

References to more unusual/unique designs by micro-brands that have gone out of business (or are small-quantity hobby businesses) are also tough to respond to. That's not a business model Chris can or wants to emulate. Everybody loves Halios (me included!), but how long has it been since Jason released a watch? The Fairwind has been in public development since December 2018 and was supposed to be released in spring 2019 - it's still not out. The Seaforth Bronze was a 2019 model. I think the last steel Seaforth round was in 2018. What about that business model could possibly work for Chris? And some of the brands that have pretty cool and more innovative designs, like Nodus and Aevig, don't get that much love in f74 either.

Anyway, that's my Sunday morning ramble/WOT.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

My penance for the WOT:


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I think the biggest takeaway is that most people agree that the site needs an overhaul, and it needs a better(much more visible) description of the actual work that goes into the watches. Chris' watchmaker, the level of QC that goes in, the regulation that at minimum cuts down the Miyotas variance by 50%. How he does it, is up to him. One thing I loved to see was the IG updates(Im one of the few whos never had Facebook) that Lüm-Tec put out while they were finalizing the 350M's. I saw pics of a batch in the pressure tank, pics of a bunch lined up on the table after being regulated, and so on. Pics of a bunch of bracelets being built and installed. That was cool.

And as much as it may hurt Doc to hear, _real in the metal photos. _Us here in the "clubhouse" (as someone in that thread put it, and that fits) arent too put off by the renders, because 90% of us own an NTH already. By seeing the render and knowing the quality of ours in the metal, we can with a good degree of certainty establish that we'll like or love what we get by simply seeing a CG render. My first NTH was the Tikuna, and it was a _total_ leap of faith as I'd just learned of the brand. Docs personality(read, honest to god nice a**hole) is what reeled me in. I can guarantee the folks who will take that leap are in the minority amongst WIS.

And the final big takeaway I got, more original designs. This requires sheer boldness on Chris' part. A large number brought up too many variations in the subs. Cut, paste, re-color this, switch that, add this, drop it in our case, call it a day. I know there's _much_ more to it than that, but the average buyer doesn't care. The Devilray was brought up as a good example that most in that thread said they liked a lot. The Tropics were brought up too. The v2s of those are a step in the right direction, and the 2K1s are as well. But the simple fact is, a sub is a sub, a compressor is a compressor, and so on. It's what makes yours different that makes you stand out to those not in the know. As well as how you advertise and market those differences.

As for the make it cheaper crowd, f!ck em. Same with the the 36-38mm crowd(sorry to my small wristed clubhouse friends)

And finally. This is what Doc needs to make. A bronze or titanium(honestly, screw titanium)GMT diver with a high end Swiss movement. And he's gotta sell it for $450 😂 I kid, I kid.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Yeah, Chris did get some gorgeous in the metal photos done of the DevilRays. But they are buried as the seventh image in each listing. They should be front and center.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here as well even though it probably won't be a popular opinion, the NTH sub is not a product that will grow the brand. 

It's safe. It's proven. But outside of the clubhouse I just don't think it makes sense for most collectors to own more than one or two varieties. Many consider them different styles of the same model. 

I get that x number of cases exist and are waiting to be assembled... But maybe once they're gone instead of producing more, don't. Expand the brand. Create some additional unique models to compliment the Devilray and tropics. And the new larger sub too. But don't immediately make the bigger sub an ongoing thing either, that will only perpetuate the attitude that NTH builds a case and then just creates so many colorways of the same watch again. 

Of course only my opinion. But the fact that the F74 thread was created shows that the desire to change the brand's perception is at least on the mind...

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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I may differ about about recent opinions regarding the NTH subs. They're the reason NTH has been so successful. The multiple variations are what make them easy to buy: if you don't like the ones you see, just wait and yours will some along shortly...

I'll use Rolex as an example (I know it's a stretch, but it's valid in this argument), they don't mess (much) with what sells. They keep churing out the same watches and they have people waiting to buy them.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> For better or worse, that is what lets people trust their Seikos and Citizens. So, here, NTH/docvail should figure out how to give that level of confidence to the new buyers who don't know the ins and outs of the brand from this thread


The issue I have with so much stock being put into ISO standards(watches, 6425, etc) and the mythical ISO "rated" statement I see thrown around incorrectly(no such thing) is that, say a watch passes its pressure testing, but fails final QC for something that requires the case to be reopened(does this happen and if so, how frequently, I don't know. But it could). It goes back to the table to fix said flaw, and they bypass the pressure test because hey, it already passed. As Morbid stated, ISO is merely a standard and a series of checklists designed for that product. If its checked off, who's to say it was checked again when it needed it. I work in an ISO compliant facility, I know the shortcuts that even upper management and QC officers take, especially if these people hate their job and make crap money.

I say Doc makes a video.
This is great, hear me out.

Doc takes a boat out into the Atlantic, its raining, he's miserable and b!tching non stop. He pukes over the side railing and pops back onto camera, vomit still on his beard. Then he brings out four or five of the subs, a digital depth gauge and a go pro. Sets them up in a cage, and throws that b*tch over the side into the ocean. Drop those things to 300m, video the whole thing, bring em back up and show that they still work. I'd be sold.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I may differ about about recent opinions regarding the NTH subs. They're the reason NTH has been so successful. The multiple variations are what make them easy to buy: if you don't like the ones you see, just wait and yours will some along shortly...
> 
> I'll use Rolex as an example (I know it's a stretch, but it's valid in this argument), they don't mess (much) with what sells. They keep churing out the same watches and they have people waiting to buy them.


I'd argue Rolex has an international market to pull from and are considered the pinnacle of watches to the less educated watch collectors. NTH on the other hand currently has a shallower customer base, centered around the very group having this debate.

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

winstoda said:


> I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here as well even though it probably won't be a popular opinion, the NTH sub is not a product that will grow the brand.
> 
> It's safe. It's proven. But outside of the clubhouse I just don't think it makes sense for most collectors to own more than one or two varieties. Many consider them different styles of the same model.
> 
> ...


I don't think you'll offend anyone here with that opinion. I agree, I'm sure others do too. I've got two subs, and they're the ones quite different from the rest, the Tikuna and the Sauro. There's others I like, but I don't _want them_(well, I'm on the waitlist for the DLC Vino Rosso)

What I do want and will be getting is a new Swiftsure and a v2 Azores.

Even us clubhouse kids would love to see new bold designs from Doc. Cases, original designs, etc. But just us can't convince his crabby, crotchety Philly ass. We're not enough. We need the help of the WIS masses!

Only valid criticism of the brand as a whole will help though. The "hey you should build a watch like this" crowd does no good. That's why Docs standard response to the bronze gmt diver with movement x(replace this with any random design) is constantly answered with the "get 500 friends to buy in" response.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> The issue I have with so much stock being put into ISO standards(watches, 6425, etc) and the mythical ISO "rated" statement I see thrown around incorrectly(no such thing) is that, say a watch passes its pressure testing, but fails final QC for something that requires the case to be reopened(does this happen and if so, how frequently, I don't know. But it could). It goes back to the table to fix said flaw, and they bypass the pressure test because hey, it already passed. As Morbid stated, ISO is merely a standard and a series of checklists designed for that product. If its checked off, who's to say it was checked again when it needed it. I work in an ISO compliant facility, I know the shortcuts that even upper management and QC officers take, especially if these people hate their job and make crap money.
> 
> I say Doc makes a video.
> This is great, hear me out.
> ...


The problem I have with that scenario is that the cases he tested are good to go, but the ISO Dive Watch standard tests EVERY ONE of the watches, not just a few.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

MikeyT said:


> The problem I have with that scenario is that the cases he tested are good to go, but the ISO Dive Watch standard tests EVERY ONE of the watches, not just a few.


I see what you're saying. I know 6425 says _every_ case is tested. My point was only that even ISO standard built watches can have flaws. If the scenario I laid out were to happen, passed pressure test, failed final, reopened, etc. there is no guarantee that if reopened, its tested again. Should it be, _absolutely._ Was it? No idea, maybe? That was my only point.

A watch built with top notch engineering, parts and QC can be/is every bit as good as one build to ISO standards. There's no ISO compliance guy walking around the floor at all times ensuring compliance. QC is done by people, people can falsify, skip steps, take shortcuts and miss things. It's in our nature.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I say Doc makes a video.
> This is great, hear me out.
> 
> Doc takes a boat out into the Atlantic, its raining, he's miserable and b!tching non stop. He pukes over the side railing and pops back onto camera, vomit still on his beard. Then he brings out four or five of the subs, a digital depth gauge and a go pro. Sets them up in a cage, and throws that b*tch over the side into the ocean. Drop those things to 300m, video the whole thing, bring em back up and show that they still work. I'd be sold.


Great idea. All that is needed is John Cameron Swayze on deck in a prestine suit doing the play-by-play.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

As for the subs growing the brand...
They have done so, yes. Are they doing so now? I'm not sure. Docvail has the data, not us.

What I suspect, is that a lot of the subs sales are repeat sales to us in the clubhouse, and established flippers. And there are at least three problems that are becoming ever more prevalent.

1) The "subs" are long in the tooth, and not "pushing the envelope". Remember when it was the first ever watch with a lumed crown? Remember when it was the thinnest 300m diver (and among the thinnest divers, period) out there? Remember when it was an example of how good a microbrand case finishing could be?

Now, all those accomplishments have been passed. And the subs are _not_ keeping up with the mounting problems (bracelet, endlinks, clasp, lack of boxed crystal), whereas the competition is improving.

2) The "subs" are expensive, compared to what equivalent cost gets you from other micros and/or big brands. Back in 2016-ish, when a sub was like $450 off the nth website? With 2016 competition? VS. now, with $700 price (+ proportionally higher tax for anyone dealing with import taxes), and with 2020 competition?

3) Which model is the "iconic" sub? Or, conversely, why someone who has a sub should by another one? (that will be a rare situation, mostly from the "big fans"). Why should someone who hasn't bought a sub so far, why should that person buy the next sub? There's minimal change between the models - in reality, all the subs are just one watch model, with some minor variants. Tweak the dial color as you will, it's still the same case, same bracelet, same bezel, same proportions, same performance, and same appeal. The more time and variation is sunken into the subs, the less appealing, and less competitive NTH becomes to everyone "outside of the club". How many of them have already been made? Some couple of thousands, right? Notice how every time they are about to sell out, another batch is right around the horizon? Now.. notice how less and less attention these subsequent batches get in the wider WUS, outside of our small pool in f71 / this thread? How many variations have there been already - some 20 or so, right? Do you think the 21st, 22nd will truly be so mindblowing, that a whole new wave of people will decide "yes, now that one is the one for me where the 20 before didn't do it"?


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Some interesting perspectives in the dive thread. I already drank the Kool-aid, but I don't think that makes this false... The Subs are great. I'm not interested in comparing watch specs. What I like is that, in hand, they just feel right and are a pleasure to operate. I think it is reasonable to own more than one.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> ...
> 
> 1) The "subs" are long in the tooth, and not "pushing the envelope". Remember when it was the first ever watch with a lumed crown? Remember when it was the thinnest 300m diver (and among the thinnest divers, period) out there? Remember when it was an example of how good a microbrand case finishing could be?
> 
> ...


I never cared about lumed crown or thinnest 300m. Surely those things took real work to achieve. And brands need talking points. But they just aren't things that are important to me. Doesn't bother me at all if those things aren't NTH exclusives anymore. Or if any of my watches aren't at the forefront of innovation.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

3WR said:


> I never cared about lumed crown or thinnest 300m. Surely those things took real work to achieve. And brands need talking points. But they just aren't things that are important to me. Doesn't bother me at all if those things aren't NTH exclusives anymore. Or if any of my watches aren't at the forefront of innovation.


Good for you  Have fun supporting a whole watch brand solely on your own expense.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

3WR said:


> I never cared about lumed crown or thinnest 300m. Surely those things took real work to achieve. And brands need talking points. But they just aren't things that are important to me. Doesn't bother me at all if those things aren't NTH exclusives anymore. Or if any of my watches aren't at the forefront of innovation.


That's great, and you should enjoy and collect what you love. But the point is that you're exhibiting that clubhouse mindset. And the question is, is that enough to expand the brand? Maybe it is. But selling over and over to the same fanclub can't work long-term I'd guess. It's not ideal anyway. And I'd guess the lack of innovation (aside from incremental improvements) is leading to pricing fatigue as well. Perhaps not to the kool-aid crowd as you put it, but to the larger dive watch marketplace.

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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I used to think the things that the dive forum obsesses over are important. Then a few years back I realized we're all arguing over *jewelry for men*. I also used to think a 45mm planet ocean looked good on me. It would be great if many people would just admit that the _capabilities _are solely for dong measuring, and that it's ok to just buy what looks good to them and feels like a good value. Look, if you think a 400m rated, $10,000 hockey puck looks good on your wrist - Fine. But don't feed me this BS that you bought it for it's ISO certification when you're posing for pics in your cubicle.

I bought a couple Nths because I like the dimensions, designs and crazy lume. F ISO cert and depth ratings...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

winstoda said:


> That's great, and you should enjoy and collect what you love. But the point is that you're exhibiting that clubhouse mindset. And the question is, is that enough to expand the brand? Maybe it is. But selling over and over to the same fanclub can't work long-term I'd guess. It's not ideal anyway. And I'd guess the lack of innovation (aside from incremental improvements) is leading to pricing fatigue as well. Perhaps not to the kool-aid crowd as you put it, but to the larger dive watch marketplace.
> 
> Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


Thanks. That sounds reasonable. 

I didn't intend to weigh in specifically about how best to expand a watch business. I'm just questioning whether new innovations are a requirement for making a watch worthwhile. I didn't become a fan because the Subs had lumed crowns while others didn't.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My .02:

The most relevant comments which should be paid attention to: the stuff about marketing to the dive crowd with stories, images, and dive-industry tie-ins. Marketing which hypes that, online - website, social media, reviewers, etc. And I really liked the idea of trying to get in with an Emergency Services or Military contract - loads of extra cred. You said Fred was making inroads on this with Bernhardt...? Maybe approach Philly public services for some gritty street cred - a police precinct, fire house, EMS group. You did custom watches for Kiger, think about it for some non-watch geek org locally or nationally. 

Absolutely hyping the stuff already being done - an attached actual watchmaker who checks regulation and regulates where needed? Talk that up! Pressure testing. Steel bezel insert - "harder than aluminum; more shatter-resistant than ceramic or sapphire!"

Where it starts going off the rails: Honestly, with the exception of I think one or two posts, people completely glossed over the "already sold 6000+ watches" bit of Doc's original post. Yeah, original designs would be nice, but is it what people actually buy? I have one NTH watch and specifically I bought it because, 1) sub-style case, and 2) Sinn-derivative design. Proof of concept is in the sales success. It's fun watching people complain about derivative design and they say they can't get one because they are usually sold out - one does not logically follow the other...

That said, I like the suggestions for an original case design. If you're going to do an original design, crown at 4, please... Another detail along the same lines as cries for ceramic or sapphire inserts, but not mentioned, is crown guards. We know why the sub doesn't have them, and having them would not add to the functionality vs. your current sub design, but it might help with the dive watch marketing. 

Seems like offering straps might be a good move, too. Personally, I'd love to see a fitted rubber strap which uses the existing NTH clasp... But even offering the Tropics strap again, with a signed buckle might be all that is needed... and showing it in some promo pix, apparently. 

Anyway, good on Doc for reaching out. It's a fool's errand, but there were some gems in there, a lot that, as a fan who follows this thread on the regular, I had never considered.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Dang. JLS36 the troll is on a warpath in that f74 thread. Pulling out screenshots from doc's videos and whatnot. That's dedication to a disturbing level...

Honestly, a real shame to see that thread devolve into the tired old arguments between the same handful of religious haters all over again.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

It was pretty good with constructive commentary until it became all about price. Unfortunate. Hopefully you can pull a few items out of that thread or help refocus it forward, Doc, as there are some interesting and solid ideas (also reiterated here).


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> As for the make it cheaper crowd, f!ck em. Same with the the 36-38mm crowd(sorry to my small wristed clubhouse friends)


The make it cheaper folks will never be satisfied, because all they care about are specs per dollar. Let them buy their $150 "MarineMasters" with 3ATM of _actual _water resistance. They aren't worth a moment of your time. Agreed on the <40mm market. It's very niche for divers, and it's covered. Doc has mentioned that a lot of guys are instantly turned off by a number starting less than 4, and he's right.

CW used to make the Trident in 38 and 43. They were hesitant about doing a 40mm initially, and only offered a few colorways. To the shock of no one familiar with the dive watch market, the 40mm immediately blew past the other two. Huh. Almost like Rolex was onto something making the Submariner 40mm.

Oris makes a pint sized 36.5mm Aquis, that retains the 300M WR. Nobody buys it. The new-ish 39.5 on the other hand has been a huge hit, and they just introduced the 41.5. That's what people actually want - 40-44mm. I'd be curious how well the 36mm Diver's 65 does. I'm guessing it sells in a tiny fraction of the amount that the 40 and 42s do.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> It was pretty good with constructive commentary until it became all about price. Unfortunate. Hopefully you can pull a few items out of that thread or help refocus it forward, Doc, as there are some interesting and solid ideas (also reiterated here).


The pricing debate is tedious, but there is a valid point there: if potential customers are heatedly debating your value proposition, perhaps the seller hasn't done enough to end the debate even before it starts?

What I mean is, value is subjective and often a gut reaction. You won't convince everyone or necessarily argue them around to a different point of view. The trick, presumably, is to provide enough information so that there isn't even a question as to whether it's good value to begin with. It should be obvious.

I think what the other poster is really saying is that he looks at NTH vs the competition and doesn't see the justification for the added cost. That's not to say the justification isn't there, just that it's perhaps not obvious to him. I doubt he's alone and there is, in my opinion, a take-away from that even if he is objectively wrong.

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## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

Baldrick said:


> I think what the other poster is really saying is that he looks at NTH vs the competition and doesn't see the justification for the added cost. That's not to say the justification isn't there, just that it's perhaps not obvious to him. I doubt he's alone and there is, in my opinion, a take-away from that even if he is objectively wrong.


This last part was me in a nutshell. I mentioned taking a long look at the Baltic Aquascaphe and Yema Navygraf before luckily finding NTH even existed. It took multiple YouTube reviews, reading this thread, and digging up customer photos via Google to understand that NTH provided some great value in areas important to me vs. the competition. Essentially none of the information that ultimately put me over the edge to buy was found on the NTH website or through social media.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Baldrick said:


> The pricing debate is tedious, but there is a valid point there: if potential customers are heatedly debating your value proposition, perhaps the seller hasn't done enough to end the debate even before it starts?
> 
> What I mean is, value is subjective and often a gut reaction. You won't convince everyone or necessarily argue them around to a different point of view. The trick, presumably, is to provide enough information so that there isn't even a question as to whether it's good value to begin with. It should be obvious.
> 
> ...


The poster in question is JLS. And the thing that bothers me about him is he's constantly beating the same drum. Over and over and over. He's done it here as well.

And the ironic thing about him beating this drum, is he owns an NTH, a Tikuna. He used to post pictures of it frequently, touting it as "Vails Finest Work". So he's got an NTH, and _knows _the quality behind it. I'd be anxious to hear which of the competitors from his list he actually owns, and his perception of a side by side quality comparison.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Doc takes a boat out into the Atlantic, its raining, he's miserable and b!tching non stop. He pukes over the side railing and pops back onto camera, vomit still on his beard. Then he brings out four or five of the subs, a digital depth gauge and a go pro. Sets them up in a cage, and throws that b*tch over the side into the ocean. Drop those things to 300m, video the whole thing, bring em back up and show that they still work. I'd be sold.


That reminds me of the test that Seiko did with a few of their 1000M Tunas - they sent them to the bottom of the ocean off the coast of Japan. The quartz version quit at 320% of its rated WR. The automatic kept going to 430%. The movements were eventually stopped due to caseback deformation from the pressure. None of them ever actually flooded. While I wouldn't expect the average SKX to survive to 800M, it does show that Seiko's pro level divers are serious bidness.

Filming the watches in the ocean is a cool idea, and you could do it with an underwater housing for the camera. Otherwise a GoPro would fail after about 50M. Something MUCH easier and MUCH less costly though would be to just send a DR or a 2K1 Sub to a watchmaker capable of testing well past their rated limit, to see what their limits actually are, and just film that. Nesbit's for example can test in-house to around 1100M.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> That reminds me of the test that Seiko did with a few of their 1000M Tunas - they sent them to the bottom of the ocean off the coast of Japan. The quartz version quit at 320% of its rated WR. The automatic kept going to 430%. The movements were eventually stopped due to caseback deformation from the pressure. None of them ever actually flooded. While I wouldn't expect the average SKX to survive to 800M, it does show that Seiko's pro level divers are serious bidness.
> 
> Filming the watches in the ocean is a cool idea, and you could do it with an underwater housing for the camera. Otherwise a GoPro would fail after about 50M. Something MUCH easier and MUCH less costly though would be to just send a DR or a 2K1 Sub to a watchmaker capable of testing well past their rated limit, to see what their limits actually are, and just film that. Nesbit's for example can test in-house to around 1100M.


Nah, a standard video showing pressure testing is too boring. If we're just spouting stupid ideas that might help sell people on a brand, real life tests would be where I went. I understand your point on much easier and cheaper, but it's not my money!

Your point of the GoPro failing would actually be a cool thing to toss in. Put a proper camera setup in the mix as well, and video the GoPro failing while the watches continue to function.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Vail’s Finest was in sales forum a while back if I’m not mistaken. I think a day after I found mine. Mine may not have official “finest” provenance - but is still pretty fine.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Dang. JLS36 the troll is on a warpath in that f74 thread. Pulling out screenshots from doc's videos and whatnot. That's dedication to a disturbing level...
> 
> Honestly, a real shame to see that thread devolve into the tired old arguments between the same handful of religious haters all over again.


My opinion is trolling but yours is contribution?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> Vail's Finest was in sales forum a while back if I'm not mistaken. I think a day after I found mine. Mine may not have official "finest" provenance - but is still pretty fine.


Yes I let it go I'm moving some stuff around

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> Yes I let it go I'm moving some stuff around
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Seeing as you no longer own an NTH, and the VFM of other models isn't there for you, I hope this means we'll no longer be graced with your presence.

What I'm saying is, please go troll watch pricing elsewhere.

But I guess you do provide some sort of entertainment value for me, seeing as I simply haven't blocked you even though every time I see your handle I roll my eyes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Gnomon Nacken?
> 
> Ohh, you mean a Steinhart.
> 
> ...


One thing I've learned since starting NTH, it's all but impossible to make a new watch that looks like an old watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Neither/either, frankly. Two of the bracelets I knew fitted - the original (came on the watch), and the beads of rice sub bracelet. The others I had around from previous watches/purchases. One of them was a diver style shark mesh - so that one fits any 20mm watch. One was a thick milanese strap that came with a diff. watch. Three, including the one shown above, were older watchgecko bracelets I had from times back, when, yes, I tried buying them (on sale ofc) to see if they fit. (in vast majority of cases, they don't, and tbh I generally don't recommend them)*. That said.. the subs do have a fairly standard profile, and somewhat closely similar to that of certain rolexes. So it should be possible, I think, to fit bracelets made to fit those rolexes to also fit the subs. Ofc I could be wrong.
> 
> *- It would be really nice if it were possible to convince docvail to make a proper, well-made bracelet for the subs with a proper taper (20 - 16 at least), with proper (!) endlinks and 3/5-piece polished/brushed design. But that ain't gonna happen (get 500 people etc. etc. ad nauseam)... So what else can one do, but try their luck in the aftermarket bracelet scene.


When you say it like that, you make the current bracelet sound like a POS.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> When you say it like that, you make the current bracelet sound like a POS.


Oh, for sure, the bracelet I mounted there/now is pretty much a POS. Hollow end links that don't even fit the lugs that much, butterfly clasp, split-pins...

But, hey, on my wrist it feels somewhat better* than the default bracelet, and I like the thin polished lines in the links  Doesn't mean it's objectively better/worse in build/construction.

*- so... I prefer a taper down to 16mm, it looks like it naturally continues the case shape. The lightweight, female endlinks don't extend the "case", neither footprint nor size, so it all feels a bit more "vintage". In contrast, there is a lot of metal weight in the stock bracelet's endlinks, they simply make the head itself feel a lot larger and heavier (and more "modern").

Ultimately though, it's basically the same as switching straps - every now and then, a change-up is needed. If that's how it is for leather and rubber, why not same change-ups for metal too, eh.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here as well even though it probably won't be a popular opinion, the NTH sub is not a product that will grow the brand.


I don't know about that. The NTH Sub is what launched the brand, very successfully. We sold about 200 in the first 20 minutes of them going on sale.

Yes, that was a discounted pre-order. But two years later, we sold just as many, in pre-order, but at full-price (100 Catalinas, plus 60 Nacken Modern Blue, plus 40 Carolinas). We've never had trouble selling them at full price.

The Subs have brought more people to the brand than any other model, and have probably done more for NTH than any model has done for any other micro. We've produced about 3,000 of them, compared to ~300 Tropics, 350 v.1 DevilRays, and 300 v.2 DevilRays. For every person who ever asked when we'd make more DevilRays or Tropics, there are 10 who ask when we'll make more of this or that Subs model.

There's a llifecycle for every product. There are very few models from very few microbrands which have had similar success and staying power. But, regardless, eventually, there probably will be an end to their lifecycle. It's just a question of when.



winstoda said:


> It's safe. It's proven. But outside of the clubhouse I just don't think it makes sense for most collectors to own more than one or two varieties. Many consider them different styles of the same model.


I should hope so, since that's how I see them, always described them, and how they've been marketed - as different versions of the same model. Notice the website has a drop down with product families - NTH Subs, DevilRay, Tropics, and 2K1's. Every version of the NTH Subs is still a - wait for it - NTH Sub.

I own 10. I think Rusty's got (or had) 4 or 5. Dan's gotta have just as many as Rusty, if no more. I lost count of how many YankeeExpress has. There's at least half a dozen guys here who've owned at least two at the same time, if not three.



winstoda said:


> I get that x number of cases exist and are waiting to be assembled... But maybe once they're gone instead of producing more, don't. Expand the brand. Create some additional unique models to compliment the Devilray and tropics. And the new larger sub too. But don't immediately make the bigger sub an ongoing thing either, that will only perpetuate the attitude that NTH builds a case and then just creates so many colorways of the same watch again.


For every guy who criticizes that we're just repeating the same thing over and over, I can find two who b1tch and moan that too many micros - including NTH - don't make the same thing over and over, and that they're tired of finding that the watch they want is sold out / out of production.

As soon as we sell out of a model, guys come out of the woodwork to ask when we'll make more again.

I'm all about expanding the brand. I'm mister "expand the brand", and have been, since I founded Lew & Huey. We had our first 3 models in production within a year of launch, and produced 5 models within our first two years. That was unheard of at the time, and became the benchmark other micros started to emulate.

With NTH, we had the Tropics and the DevilRay produced - as in, the watches were _delivered_ to customers - in less than 2 years from the brand's launch in April 2016.

It ain't like we made those first 8 Subs versions, and just called it a day. Besides the 6 Tropics versions and 7 DevilRay versions, we also doubled the number of Subs variations in that time.

Maybe that's not all that impressive, but very few brands can do it, or have done it.

Until 2018, I was still mostly a one-man show. We were still selling 90% of our watches direct to customers. I was doing all the customer support. I didn't have Dan doing QC, didn't have Josh doing my marketing, didn't have Julie responding to my emails or people's comments on social media. The only help I had was Rusty and Aaron, who mostly just did illustrations based on what I told them I wanted to see.

For someone to do everything I was doing at the time, and still develop 13 new designs from scratch, plus 8 new Subs versions, I feel like we were putting in a lot more work than some folks give us credit for.

The rapid proliferation of the Subs versions, and the focus on them exclusively the last 18 months, was in response to demand. When tons of people are clamoring for more of something, what small business owner says, "Meh, nah, I think I'll toss away the investment we made in developing that product, in favor of possibly pissing away money developing something unproven"?

The Subs aren't the thing keeping the brand from growing, they've been the engine of growth.



winstoda said:


> Of course only my opinion. But the fact that the F74 thread was created shows that the desire to change the brand's perception is at least on the mind...
> 
> Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


I'm just trying to understand why NTH gets the attention it does in F71, and only a small fraction of that attention in F74.

Rather than guess, I figured I'd ask.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> One thing I've learned since starting NTH, it's all but impossible to make a new watch that looks like an old watch.


It can be done though, just perhaps not easily. There are some Seiko modders on IG for example that make tropical dials and other designs that really do look like they were just pulled out of 50 year old watches. This "Seiko Scafograf" dial for example, to my eye that really does look like faded Tritium, not brown Superluminova. Of course that also means that like the real thing, it's not actually functional lume.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> The issue I have with so much stock being put into ISO standards(watches, 6425, etc) and the mythical ISO "rated" statement I see thrown around incorrectly(no such thing) is that, say a watch passes its pressure testing, but fails final QC for something that requires the case to be reopened(does this happen and if so, how frequently, I don't know. But it could). It goes back to the table to fix said flaw, and they bypass the pressure test because hey, it already passed. As Morbid stated, ISO is merely a standard and a series of checklists designed for that product. If its checked off, who's to say it was checked again when it needed it. I work in an ISO compliant facility, I know the shortcuts that even upper management and QC officers take, especially if these people hate their job and make crap money.
> 
> I say Doc makes a video.
> This is great, hear me out.
> ...


Ugh, the ISO thing...

To paraphrase what I think the gist of the pro-ISO certification argument is, it sounds like, "How do I know your watches really have 50 ATM WR if they're not ISO _Divers_ certified?"

It sounds logical enough at first blush, but try this on for size - how does anyone know if their 3, 5, or 10 ATM watch really has that much WR, since none of them are ISO certified? That's the logical extension of that argument, no?

Not every company gets ISO certification. If there was a strong correlation between watches which aren't ISO certified and watches that get water in them, I think we'd know it by now, and more brands would be getting ISO certified as a result.

I've looked into the tests required for ISO certification. They're redundant - a bunch of different tests which all prove the same thing. There's no way a watch would pass our testing, which uses commercial-grade pressure-testing equipment, but fail an ISO test. If a watch would fail on ISO test, it would fail our test.

That "the watch passed, but then failed QC and had to be opened up" scenario actually happened (I think), with a watch owned by a guy here - Glen Roiland.

Glen's watch got condensation inside. I think he noticed the caseback wasn't on super-tight. If it wasn't him, then we found it when we had him send it back. We tightened the caseback - BOOM - it aced the pressure test. Dan's been checking caseback tightness in final QC ever since.

All that said - I'm at the point where arguing over this is less valuable and less effective than taking the time to look into what it would cost to get the watches ISO certified, what that would add to the cost, and trying to figure out if it adds enough value to rationalize doing it.

If the expense is too high, and we don't think it will drive enough incremental sales lift, we'll ditch the idea. If the cost is low enough, hell yeah, we'll do it. Why not, if it gets rid of another objection, and I never have to talk about it again after that?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Even us clubhouse kids would love to see new bold designs from Doc. Cases, original designs, etc.


Find 499 friends who want the same thing, badly enough to plunk down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders, I'll make you a new bold design, anything you want.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> The problem I have with that scenario is that the cases he tested are good to go, but the ISO Dive Watch standard tests EVERY ONE of the watches, not just a few.


We also test every one, not just a few. In fact, each one is tested at least twice, if not three times - once pre-assembly, and once, if not twice post-assembly.

The single WR failure we had was due to a loose caseback, which couldn't have passed testing, and so must have been a watch which was pulled out for some QC issue post-testing, but not re-tested after whatever the issue was got sorted out.

Trust me, if there was a problem with our water resistance, we'd all know it by now.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> To paraphrase what I think the gist of the pro-ISO certification argument is, it sounds like, "How do I know your watches really have 50 ATM WR if they're not ISO _Divers_ certified?"


Yep 
So, the question is, how could this concern be resolved? One way, getting the ISO cert. Another way, documenting and demonstrating the testing in marketing, website, media, etc... Another way, responding to individual forum posts here and there (is this cost effective?).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> As for the subs growing the brand...
> They have done so, yes. Are they doing so now? I'm not sure. Docvail has the data, not us.
> 
> What I suspect, is that a lot of the subs sales are repeat sales to us in the clubhouse, and established flippers. And there are at least three problems that are becoming ever more prevalent.
> ...


To be fair...

1) The Subs still are the first microbrand watch with a lumed crown. They'll always be the first.

They're also still among the thinnest diving watches around. Everything thinner has a flat crystal, less WR, a thinner movement, etc. No one has yet made a thinner watch with that same set of specs and components.

Kind of hard to say they've slipped into irrelevance, when no one's been able to beat them in the ways they excel.

We could add a big box crystal, if we wanted to, and I'm sure a lot of guys would love it. But that would increase cost and thickness, exacerbating the "they're too expensive" argument, and negating the "damn they're thin" feature.

2) Expensive is relative. Go back a few pages and look at Tribus again, or not as far back, and look at that other British brand, William Wood. Then tell me the Subs cost too much.

Can you get the same specs for less? Absolutely, and maybe even with a Swiss movement. You'll probably also be put into one of those "gotta set my alarm so I don't get shut out of pre-orders" situations if you actually plan to get them.

There's a cost to convenience, and I've made it as convenient as possible to buy an NTH. No pre-orders. no months-long waits, no feeding-frenzy buying experience, no "sold out in five minutes", none of that.

You don't even have to worry about getting a VAT bill from FedEx, now that we've got retail partners around the world, most, if not all of whom offer free shipping, and if you're lucky, include a stroopwaffel.

I benchmark our watches against the likes of Halios, Nodus, Magrette, Raven, Helson, and similar micros. I'm not benchmarking against the brands who are struggling just to get off the ground. We're in the right ballpark, all things considered.

3) Which model is the iconic Sub? All of them, maybe, depending on who you ask, I suppose.

But, if you want to narrow it down, I'd say the Nackens and the Barracudas. Those are the ones that seem to resonate with the most people.

Why would someone have more than one? Not only do I have 10, I own both colors of the Odin, both colors of the Scorpene, two colors of the Barracuda, and two versions of the Nacken.

I own more than one pair of dress shoes. I own lots of neckties, dress socks and dress belts in more than one color. When I find a shirt I like, I'll often buy it in multiple colors. I own two pairs of tennis shoes, and I don't play tennis. When I buy jeans or shorts, I'm usually buying at least two pairs.

There have been ~40 versions of the Subs, and we've got ideas for a few more.

Variety is the spice of life, they say.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I own more than one pair of dress shoes.


Yes. And now you're looking to get buyers from the people who wear work boots. However, for the last 2-3 years, you've been making dress shoes. Will making even more dress shoes get you new buyers from the work boot crowd?

Edit: though, admittedly, this might change when the new tropics come out (and maybe more discussions can be sparked around the devilrays). But for the last few years, NTH has basically been a one-watch brand, and maybe that has narrowed the variety - that one watch, no matter how many dial swaps, will not appeal to people who aren't onboard with that one watch's case/bezel/size.

I'm curious to see how the 2k1 roll-out goes, tbh.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> That's great, and you should enjoy and collect what you love. But the point is that you're exhibiting that clubhouse mindset. And the question is, is that enough to expand the brand? Maybe it is. But selling over and over to the same fanclub can't work long-term I'd guess. It's not ideal anyway. And I'd guess the lack of innovation (aside from incremental improvements) is leading to pricing fatigue as well. Perhaps not to the kool-aid crowd as you put it, but to the larger dive watch marketplace.
> 
> Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


Lack of innovation? Come on...

First, how many brands can and have come up with 40 different versions of the same model? At a certain point, reading people's comments along the lines of "all he's doing is slapping a new dial and hands in that case" gets old.

People complained about the bracelet. We improved it. Ditto for the clasp. The next iteration of the bracelet will have an updated end-link, based on the feedback we received from customers.

People complained about the accuracy, even when the watches ran within spec (often WELL within spec). We cut the accuracy spec in half, and use that as our QC standard for regulation.

Guys complained about our other QC standards. We tightened all of them up.

Gilt-relief dials - we're LITERALLY (not figuratively) the only brand doing them right now.

How many brands - large or small - make replacement parts (like bezel inserts) available to purchase on their website, and provide easy-to-follow instructions for replacing them? Try finding OEM bracelets and clasps for sale from most brands (large or small). Yes, some sell them, but more don't.

How many brands have 6 week returns, guarantee the movement for 6 years, and will let you try a used watch before you commit to buying a new one, possibly at no charge?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It also gets old reading the complaints about the pricing.

All that stuff I mentioned above adds cost, as does the rhodium plated markers, the 1-day turnaround on repairs, and the same-day response to support requests. Even if we weren't doing ANY of those things, how many companies can afford to hold prices steady for FIVE YEARS???

Is anyone here NOT paying more for most goods and services today than those goods and services cost 5 years ago???

We've had multiple cost increases since we designed the subs in 2015. It's been 5 years since we got our first production cost estimate on them. We've made several improvements to our quality and service since then. We've actually cut our international shipping rates - IN HALF!

We raised prices on the watches 8% since we got that first cost estimate. EIGHT PERCENT! Does anyone know what regular old inflation has been since then?

I do. It was 9.7%.

If you liked the NTH Subs when they were $625 in 2016, you should be amazed with them for $675 in 2020.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> I used to think the things that the dive forum obsesses over are important. Then a few years back I realized we're all arguing over *jewelry for men*. I also used to think a 45mm planet ocean looked good on me. It would be great if many people would just admit that the _capabilities _are solely for dong measuring, and that it's ok to just buy what looks good to them and feels like a good value. Look, if you think a 400m rated, $10,000 hockey puck looks good on your wrist - Fine. But don't feed me this BS that you bought it for it's ISO certification when you're posing for pics in your cubicle.
> 
> I bought a couple Nths because I like the dimensions, designs and crazy lume. F ISO cert and depth ratings...


It's good to have you back here.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> My .02:
> 
> The most relevant comments which should be paid attention to: the stuff about marketing to the dive crowd with stories, images, and dive-industry tie-ins. Marketing which hypes that, online - website, social media, reviewers, etc. And I really liked the idea of trying to get in with an Emergency Services or Military contract - loads of extra cred. You said Fred was making inroads on this with Bernhardt...? Maybe approach Philly public services for some gritty street cred - a police precinct, fire house, EMS group. You did custom watches for Kiger, think about it for some non-watch geek org locally or nationally.
> 
> ...


Agreed on a lot of that.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Dang. JLS36 the troll is on a warpath in that f74 thread. Pulling out screenshots from doc's videos and whatnot. That's dedication to a disturbing level...
> 
> Honestly, a real shame to see that thread devolve into the tired old arguments between the same handful of religious haters all over again.


I haven't gotten that far yet.

We had family over yesterday. I didn't want to spend my weekend working online. I realized this morning that thread had blown up, so I started to chop my way through it, responding as I go.

I took a break to post an update to the Swatch suing Vortic thread, and see what was happening here. Haven't been back there since my last post. Whatever that post was responding to, that's as far as I got in that thread so far.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm keeping a running list of suggestions from the other thread. It's up to 19 so far, and I think I may need to circle back to make sure I didn't miss anything so far.

I'm probably not going to implement all of them. I wasn't asking for the world to help me figure out how to sell more watches, or what to do with future designs. I was really hoping to keep the focus narrow - why NTH doesn't enjoy the same popularity there that it does here, or that some other brands enjoy there?

ISO certification might be a difference-maker with that crowd. I'm sure if I spent more time engaging there, that would benefit NTH. Offering the option of buying the watch on a strap, or adding more dive-watch type imagery? Pretty straightforward.

Is NTH not popular there because we don't have flat crystals, or a Swiss movement, or a 38mm model, or non-lumed bezels? I honestly don't know. Maybe?

I gotta separate all the suggestions into groups based on how difficult they'd be to implement, how much impact they're likely to have, and other variables. 

For now, I'm just keeping an open mind and a running list.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> The make it cheaper folks will never be satisfied, because all they care about are specs per dollar. Let them buy their $150 "MarineMasters" with 3ATM of _actual _water resistance. They aren't worth a moment of your time. Agreed on the <40mm market. It's very niche for divers, and it's covered. Doc has mentioned that a lot of guys are instantly turned off by a number starting less than 4, and he's right.
> 
> CW used to make the Trident in 38 and 43. They were hesitant about doing a 40mm initially, and only offered a few colorways. To the shock of no one familiar with the dive watch market, the 40mm immediately blew past the other two. Huh. Almost like Rolex was onto something making the Submariner 40mm.
> 
> Oris makes a pint sized 36.5mm Aquis, that retains the 300M WR. Nobody buys it. The new-ish 39.5 on the other hand has been a huge hit, and they just introduced the 41.5. That's what people actually want - 40-44mm. I'd be curious how well the 36mm Diver's 65 does. I'm guessing it sells in a tiny fraction of the amount that the 40 and 42s do.


I hesitate to mention his name, but...

Many times, Jonathan Bordell of Page & Cooper would point out that they stocked two sizes of some watches, a 38mm and a 42mm or 44mm. No one ever bought the 38mm's.

I look at the Tudor/Rolex lineup of divers, arguably the most successful range in all of diver history. The BB58, which no one seems able to buy anywhere, is 39mm. The Submariner was 40mm, but will now be 41mm, if I understand the gist of all the grousing filling my Facebook feed. The original Black Bays are 41mm. The Pelagos is 42mm. The Bronze BB's and the Sea-Dweller are 43mm. The DeepSea is 44m.

I'm not saying I won't consider making a 38mm, but every instinct I have tells me the current 40mm to 44mm range we have should be more in line with current dive-watch tastes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Nah, a standard video showing pressure testing is too boring. If we're just spouting stupid ideas that might help sell people on a brand, real life tests would be where I went. I understand your point on much easier and cheaper, but it's not my money!
> 
> Your point of the GoPro failing would actually be a cool thing to toss in. Put a proper camera setup in the mix as well, and video the GoPro failing while the watches continue to function.


What's the WR on a GoPro?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Oh, for sure, the bracelet I mounted there/now is pretty much a POS. Hollow end links that don't even fit the lugs that much, butterfly clasp, split-pins...
> 
> But, hey, on my wrist it feels somewhat better* than the default bracelet, and I like the thin polished lines in the links  Doesn't mean it's objectively better/worse in build/construction.
> 
> ...


Sorry I wasn't more clear. I was saying you make the stock NTH bracelet sound like a POS.


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## cman1120 (Feb 23, 2017)

Man, every time I look at an NTH thread it makes me want one so badly lol. I wish it is was in the cards to get one now, but someday I will. Keep up the good work Docvail.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> What's the WR on a GoPro?


Depends what you put it in. Out of the box, they rate them to just 10M under water. You can get a cheap housing that's good for 60M or so. If you want them to survive to the rated depth of a Sub, you'd need a much more serious housing that'll run at least the price of the camera itself, but you can film at 300M with one if you want to.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yep
> So, the question is, how could this concern be resolved? One way, getting the ISO cert. Another way, documenting and demonstrating the testing in marketing, website, media, etc... Another way, responding to individual forum posts here and there (is this cost effective?).


Let's put aside the "answer when someone asks the question on the forum" method, since not everyone is going to ask.

Getting the cert is on the list for investigation.

If we don't get it, building out some better content on the website, stuff which speaks to the testing we do, sort of like the regulation, should be something we implement as a next-best-thing.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> Depends what you put it in. Out of the box, they rate them to just 10M under water. You can get a cheap housing that's good for 60M or so. If you want them to survive to the rated depth of a Sub, you'd need a much more serious housing that'll run at least the price of the camera itself, but you can film at 300M with one if you want to.


Now that could be fun.
If doing that, might be worth trying two dunks. Once, with a (flash?)light shining to see the watch well, and a 2nd dunk, relying on the lume of the watch itself.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yes. And now you're looking to get buyers from the people who wear work boots. However, for the last 2-3 years, you've been making dress shoes. Will making even more dress shoes get you new buyers from the work boot crowd?
> 
> Edit: though, admittedly, this might change when the new tropics come out (and maybe more discussions can be sparked around the devilrays). But for the last few years, NTH has basically been a one-watch brand, and maybe that has narrowed the variety - that one watch, no matter how many dial swaps, will not appeal to people who aren't onboard with that one watch's case/bezel/size.
> 
> I'm curious to see how the 2k1 roll-out goes, tbh.


I think the lack of traction in F74 has more to do with the time I wasn't spending there than it has to do with not making a 38mm design or making "too many" of the 40mm Subs.

Some guys there want something under 40mm. Okay, I get it. But there are also guys there buying other 40mm watches, or 42's, 44's, etc.

Halios was super-popular before Jason started making smaller watches. That popularity was built on larger models, like the Laguna, Holotype, Bluering, Puck, and Delfin - all sized between 43mm and 48mm. Somebody was buying all of them.

Again, we had a plan for a diverse production mix in the two years from launch. That included models that weren't 40mm Subs. We only made Subs in the next two years, but that was because of clear demand for them - we made what was selling.

Doing the same thing over and over again? Someone explain Doxa and Aquadive's popularity to me.

Too many Subs? That's what's kept the dive watch guys from noticing what we're doing? The homage thing? Really? If that's true, explain to me how Steinhart, Ginault, MKII, Squale, Davosa, and Glycine are as popular as they are among dive watch guys.

It's insane to look at the success of that model, inspired by the most successful and iconic diving watch of all time, and say, "there's your problem, right there..."

I don't think it's about the mix of what we've been making as much as it's about the communication and some other intangibles.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Seeing as you no longer own an NTH, and the VFM of other models isn't there for you, I hope this means we'll no longer be graced with your presence.
> 
> What I'm saying is, please go troll watch pricing elsewhere.
> 
> But I guess you do provide some sort of entertainment value for me, seeing as I simply haven't blocked you even though every time I see your handle I roll my eyes.


The part I'm having a hard time with is that the thread in f74 is basically the things I brought up and was called a hater or troll for. Now however it's constructive criticism? I'm a watch fan and enjoy debating and discussing watches, nth is a huge part of the watch world and a big reason these forums are fun, that doesn't mean some critiques are hating or trolling its just expressing an opinion.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Depends what you put it in. Out of the box, they rate them to just 10M under water.


Yeah, but is it ISO certified? 

Is it weird that I don't think of the Subs as dive watches? I know they are, and I know the rotating bezel and the water resistance make them so, but to me, they're sport watches with a rotating bezel. When I think of dive watches, I picture something chunky and heavy. It's just my mental model and I'm not trying to convince anyone of this or suggest any change. To me, Subs are dive watches in the same way Chuck Taylors are sneakers.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Sussa said:


> Is it weird that I don't think of the Subs as dive watches? I know they are, and I know the rotating bezel and the water resistance make them so, but to me, they're sport watches with a rotating bezel. When I think of dive watches, I picture something chunky and heavy. It's just my mental model and I'm not trying to convince anyone of this or suggest any change. To me, Subs are dive watches in the same way Chuck Taylors are sneakers.


I agree with a lot of this and see where you're coming from with the chunky and heavy comment. I think there's even a thread "Show your chunky diver" somewhere on F74. ...and quite a few "what's the thinnest diver out there?" threads, too. 80/20 - sell to 80% of potential customers and let the 10% on either end find what they are looking for elsewhere.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

On further thought:

Sponsor a free-diver, or at least get your watches in the wrist of a top competitor. It's a fringe water-sport, so cost of entry might be reasonable.

Get your watches on the wrists of a cave-diving team doing a documentary expedition somewhere. I hear NTH has outstanding lume... Especially one of those SAR cave-diving teams, like the ones who rescued those kids in Thailand.

See if any commercial diving companies are interested in a short run of watches, probably Swiftsure.

Send a watch - maybe even one of each model as they are released - to WUS member boatswain for reviews. His threads seem to get a lot of traction in f74, and he does some outstanding photography.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> ...
> I don't think it's about the mix of what we've been making as much as it's about the communication and some other intangibles.


I don't think you can totally separate these ideas. Marketing Mix


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Musing on this further, I don't think there can really be any debate over NTH's innovations - facts are facts.

The difficulty (and no doubt frustration) is that innovation often has a short shelf-life. Very few companies can rely on past innovation to fuel future growth.

Eventually, someone's going to copy it and, while imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, that's now someone competing against what once set you apart. That's when other factors come into play and, suddenly, your innovation is in a crowded field.

Wait a bit more and someone else is going to figure out how to do the same thing (or close enough to it) for less money. And now you're lagging.

There's no justice.

The other issue with innovation is the flip side of not being able to please all the people all the time. So actually, your innovation may not, of itself, drive or increase sales.

Remember, you're not just trying to convince me to part with x dollars, you're also trying to persuade me to give it to you instead of the other guy. If I don't care about your innovation, or someone else does the same or does it cheaper, that's a barrier to you getting my business.

In practical terms, what I mean is this: you have the thinnest watch. OK, good (great?) differentiator, shout about it. It doesn't seal the deal for me, but may do for someone else.

You were the first micro with lumed crowns? Cool. So what? Is that enough to make me pick you over the other guy that also does it now? Hmm.

Innovation is great, and is a part of your story that should be celebrated and advertised. But be wary of resting on your laurels. (I'm not suggesting you are doing this, and have expressed my interest in your new designs, but rather the previous successes with the subs only takes you so far with new purchasers.)

If you want to expand and grow, rather than just keep to a baseline, you have to _keep_ moving forward on innovation.

Like I say, there's no justice.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Maybe not the best place for this, but considering the feedback regarding pricing and because we are talking microbrands...

Three different repair/warranty situations with "factory" service:

- Zelos Mako v2. Got one and about a month of sporadic ownership, Selitta SW200 movement was exhibiting what I learned was typical reserve, winding issues. Asked for coverage under warranty, and two days later, a replacement watch showed up, with a note to please return the defective one. Woah.

- Archimede Outdoor Protect 39. Watch just stopped working. Another Selitta SW200 movement... Sent it in to Watchmann here in the States, official warranty service provider for Archimede and where the watch was originally purchased. I am not the original owner, at least the third, but Watchmann repaired under warranty. I'm sure they could have found some technicality by which to deny service, but they went the other way with it. Kudos to them.

- Seiko SLT079. Sent to Seiko repair center in NJ. Watch was not working when received, but functioned as it should - jumping hour hand GMT adjustment, all time adjustment functions in working order. I sent it in for service, battery replacement, and perpetual calendar set. Then sent it back saying it could not be serviced because a part was no longer availble, the crown/stem assembly. Wut? That was working fine when I sent it in... It was broken off inside the movement when I got it back. But at least there was a new battery in it...

So, for all the whingeing about microbrands, will the still be around, what kind of service to expect, "Say what you want, at least with a bigger established brand, I know I can get a watch serviced," my experience has been very, very different. Personal service bending over backward to make things right on the microbrand end of things, and incompetence combined with CYA by the Big Watch Company service center.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

@Baldrick I think you can leverage innovation, it happens all over the industry. Take Blancpain's Fifty Fathoms,

_"The Fifty Fathoms collection embodies Blancpain's passion for the marine world, introduced for the first time in 1953 with the creation of the first modern diver's watch."_

Does that have any relevance to today? Absolutely none, but it's the very first thing they say about their product.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Oh absolutely, that's what I mean about keeping it as part of the brand's story and advertising. 

The bigger question is whether that will persuade someone to buy your stuff over the other guy's stuff. In some cases it might, but in most cases I'd hazard it becomes an ancillary consideration.

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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Baldrick said:


> Oh absolutely, that's what I mean about keeping it as part of the brand's story and advertising.
> 
> The bigger question is whether that will persuade someone to buy your stuff over the other guy's stuff. In some cases it might, but in most cases I'd hazard it becomes an ancillary consideration.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


My gut feeling, feel free to ignore, is that we're talking about a product that is based on a false premise; dive watches for people who don't take their timepieces into the water. As such, buyers choose the product because of the looks but then have to justify that choice with what is essentially confirmation bias. In other words, the more reasons you can give the customer that their choice was 'a good one', the more likely they are to follow through on the purchase. Specs, heritage, loyalty etc all play a part.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Nth content:


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

You got me at "Morningwood"...🤣


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Aaah said:


> My gut feeling, feel free to ignore, is that we're talking about a product that is based on a false premise; dive watches for people who don't take their timepieces into the water. As such, buyers choose the product because of the looks but then have to justify that choice with what is essentially confirmation bias. In other words, the more reasons you can give the customer that their choice was 'a good one', the more likely they are to follow through on the purchase. Specs, heritage, loyalty etc all play a part.


Yeah, I largely agree - I mentioned on the other thread that, for me at least, the design has to grab me and then I start thinking about specs and other intangibles. So, yep, being the first watch with a lumed crown or the thinnest dive watch might push me in the right direction, but those aren't the things that drew me in.

(As to getting wet, I'm in the minority in that all my dive watches, from Rolex on down, have seen or will see the underside of a boat at some point )

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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

So I was watching the Average Brothers youtube review of the Atticus Icarus, and the reviewer, after praising NTH, says he hasn't reviewed any NTH watches because "the owner of NTH is not a big fan of me personally". (These remarks start at the 3 minute mark.)

Don't know what THAT is all about, but Average Brothers reviews a LOT of watches and their videos get thousands to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of views. Their "Ultimate Affordable Blue Swiss Auto-Diver Face-off" video from 2016 has a quarter million views.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Baldrick said:


> As to getting wet, I'm in the minority in that all my dive watches, from Rolex on down, have seen or will see the underside of a boat at some point


Off Dubai? Dead jealous, the North of England doesn't present the same opportunities. And I tend to take an old cheap quartz Sekonda on holiday; I should probably stop being so uncultured.


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I thought it was telling how you started that thread in the Dive forum. 

Like you said, the Devil Ray was designed and built from the ground up to be a pure dive watch. If that's not appealing to the dive watch crowd then the watch isn't the problem. 

Anyway, the last time I went freediving I took my Alsta out for pics, but the next time I go I'll throw on the Nacken and see if I can get a few pics. It's a great dive watch. I was planning on doing some spearfishing anyway so I'll see what I can do.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> Yeah, but is it ISO certified?
> 
> Is it weird that I don't think of the Subs as dive watches? I know they are, and I know the rotating bezel and the water resistance make them so, but to me, they're sport watches with a rotating bezel. When I think of dive watches, I picture something chunky and heavy. It's just my mental model and I'm not trying to convince anyone of this or suggest any change. To me, Subs are dive watches in the same way Chuck Taylors are sneakers.


Effing. A.

This guy gets it.

No, it's not weird. Your post succinctly puts what I've long suspected and wanted to explore - people don't think of the watches we're making as DIVE watches, and thus don't think of NTH as a DIVE watch brand, despite the fact that we literally (not figuratively) have ONLY made - wait for it - DIVE WATCHES!!!

I'm not done thinking about all this. I'm only up to page 4 in that other thread, and I've already got a 20-item list of ideas to explore. But, so far, some things are quite clear:

1. I didn't spend enough time engaging there, in that sub-forum. That's on me. Easy enough to fix, and simply raising the visibility of NTH there should pay dividends.

2. As we all know, I'm too stubborn about a lot of things, some of which are stupid and self-defeating. We're doing a lot of things people like, but not talking about it, because I didn't want to, which is silly, in retrospect.

3. We're still struggling to effectively deal with the challenges of being a microbrand that almost exclusively sells through retailers, and thus our website almost always appears sold out of everything.

4. We need to do a better job communicating the brand identity on the website and social media, through imagery, etc.

5. We need to figure out how to balance people's desire for an uncluttered, easy-to-navigate UX with their desire for more appealing product imagery.

I'm not even sure that's the "top 5", that's just the first five off the top of my head, and none of them necessarily entail any cost increases. 4 out of 5 actually seem like fairly easy problems to solve.

If we can identify the top 10 ideas, and implement them within the next year, I think they'll have a cumulative effect which is easily measurable.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaah said:


> I don't think you can totally separate these ideas. Marketing Mix


I'm not separating them, per se. I think about product all the time. I let my focus on communication slip.

Let's not assume the baby is still dirty just because we threw out the bathwater.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> So I was watching the Average Brothers youtube review of the Atticus Icarus, and the reviewer, after praising NTH, says he hasn't reviewed any NTH watches because "the owner of NTH is not a big fan of me personally". (These remarks start at the 3 minute mark.)
> 
> Don't know what THAT is all about, but Average Brothers reviews a LOT of watches and their videos get thousands to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of views. Their "Ultimate Affordable Blue Swiss Auto-Diver Face-off" video from 2016 has a quarter million views.


I turned him down when he first requested a review sample back in 2016. He took it badly, and as a result, I made the decision to turn him down when he asked again, which he also took badly.

Apparently, he never got over it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I turned him down when he first requested a review sample back in 2016. He took it badly, and as a result, I made the decision to turn him down when he asked again, which he also took badly.
> 
> Apparently, he never got over it.


Perhaps time to attempt to mend fences? No harm in trying.

That is, unless you have a true issue with the guy?

I personally don't watch/read watch blog/vloggers. I've seen two or three, but they really tell me nothing I can't see or figure out on my own in most cases.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sussa said:


> Yeah, but is it ISO certified?
> 
> Is it weird that I don't think of the Subs as dive watches? I know they are, and I know the rotating bezel and the water resistance make them so, but to me, they're sport watches with a rotating bezel. When I think of dive watches, I picture something chunky and heavy. It's just my mental model and I'm not trying to convince anyone of this or suggest any change. To me, Subs are dive watches in the same way Chuck Taylors are sneakers.


I can definitely see that. The Seiko MM300 has the exact same WR rating as the NTH Subs. It's probably _capable _of way more than the Subs are, given what the Tunas can do, the monobloc case, etc, but what Seiko prints on the tin is the same. And yet, the MM300 absolutely screams _dive watch _in a way that the Subs don't, particularly the versions which aren't pulled from the most famous vintage divers.

The Dolphin and Nazario for example really don't look like divers at all. In the case of Nazario I think the cathedral hands are part of that, more than necessarily it being a Cali dial. I don't normally associate those with dive watches, even though there are quite a few that use them, Bremont being one of them.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Perhaps time to attempt to mend fences? No harm in trying.
> 
> That is, unless you have a true issue with the guy?
> 
> I personally don't watch/read watch blog/vloggers. I've seen two or three, but they really tell me nothing I can't see or figure out on my own in most cases.


I like his reviews above many others on YouTube. He seems fair

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> - Seiko SLT079. Sent to Seiko repair center in NJ. Watch was not working when received, but functioned as it should - jumping hour hand GMT adjustment, all time adjustment functions in working order. I sent it in for service, battery replacement, and perpetual calendar set. Then sent it back saying it could not be serviced because a part was no longer availble, the crown/stem assembly. Wut? That was working fine when I sent it in... It was broken off inside the movement when I got it back. But at least there was a new battery in it...
> 
> So, for all the whingeing about microbrands, will the still be around, what kind of service to expect, "Say what you want, at least with a bigger established brand, I know I can get a watch serviced," my experience has been very, very different. Personal service bending over backward to make things right on the microbrand end of things, and incompetence combined with CYA by the Big Watch Company service center.


That's not at all uncommon actually. The reputation of Seiko's NJ center is shall we say, "not good." When it became clear that my SDGC017 needed service, I looked for indie watchmakers that work on Seikos because I was definitely not interested in sending it to the Seiko repair center if at all possible. The one positive about most of the more basic Seiko 3-handers is that the movements are cheap enough, and readily available so that it's much more cost effective to simply toss a bad movement and swap in a new one.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> I like his reviews above many others on YouTube. He seems fair
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


He's generally "ok," although I rarely watch one of his videos if I'm not already interested in that watch. Even TGV I've kind of cooled on. I used to watch him pretty regularly, but the "Hugo" schtick gets old, and I feel like he covers a lot of the same kind of stuff over and over.

The channel I watch most often these days is "The Time Teller" aka Jory Goodman. A key thing he has that the vast majority of watch channels don't is that he's a good broadcaster. Some of the watch guys are just unbearable to watch because they are like watching paint dry when they're in front of the camera. He also has a good camera setup and a high quality macro lens. That's another thing a lot of reviewers miss. He's been focusing a lot more on micros lately with his "microbrand mondays" segments, the most recent being a review of the Mitch Mason field watch.

Maybe worth hitting him up Doc if you haven't already? Knowing his taste, I could definitely see him being interested in a 'Cuda White, Vino Rosso, or Scorpene White.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> I can definitely see that. The Seiko MM300 has the exact same WR rating as the NTH Subs. It's probably _capable _of way more than the Subs are, given what the Tunas can do, the monobloc case, etc, but what Seiko prints on the tin is the same. And yet, the MM300 absolutely screams _dive watch _in a way that the Subs don't, particularly the versions which aren't pulled from the most famous vintage divers.
> 
> The Dolphin and Nazario for example really don't look like divers at all. In the case of Nazario I think the cathedral hands are part of that, more than necessarily it being a Cali dial. I don't normally associate those with dive watches, even though there are quite a few that use them, Bremont being one of them.


Hmmm, I've gotta disagree on the Nazario.

Sure, when folks think dive watch, they generally don't go to cathedral hands. But the Cali dial of the Nazarios _screams_ diver. I mean, the Cali dial goes all the way back to what, '36? When Panerai asked Rolex to produce a watch for them/the Italian navy?

I personally like cathedral hands. I think them being on the Nazario just adds a small touch of class to the serious dive face of the watch.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Hmmm, I've gotta disagree on the Nazario.
> 
> Sure, when folks think dive watch, they generally don't go to cathedral hands. But the Cali dial of the Nazarios _screams_ diver. I mean, the Cali dial goes all the way back to what, '36? When Panerai asked Rolex to produce a watch for them/the Italian navy?
> 
> I personally like cathedral hands. I think them being on the Nazario just adds a small touch of class to the serious dive face of the watch.


Borealis often uses cathedral hands, most recently on the Cascais.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Hmmm, I've gotta disagree on the Nazario.
> 
> Sure, when folks think dive watch, they generally don't go to cathedral hands. But the Cali dial of the Nazarios _screams_ diver. I mean, the Cali dial goes all the way back to what, '36? When Panerai asked Rolex to produce a watch for them/the Italian navy?
> 
> I personally like cathedral hands. I think them being on the Nazario just adds a small touch of class to the serious dive face of the watch.


Rolex did it first, in 1934. Those Panerais weren't "dive watches" though, they were big dial watches with radium paint in water resistant cases. There's a reason why the Submariner, Fifty Fathoms, and SSW are considered the first proper dive watches and not those early Panerais. Also, the Zerographe which the Nazario takes its most direct inspiration from was definitely not a diver, it was a porto-chronograph of sorts with a rotating bezel.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Realistically, with all the youtube influencers, you'd either try to get it out to the big ones (as defined by subscriber count), or in a concerted fashion to _everyone_.

The first option brings the most eyes to the product. The second option kind of establishes the product more deeply in the mind of the watch-obsessives.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

I checked out youtube reviews before I bought my NTH...Random Rob was the one I recall, a couple more I don't.
I just sold my C.Ward so my NTH Odin is now my only watch and I'm fine with that. I have a few different straps for it to change things up if necessary.
I'm not a collector of things, be it a watch, motorcycle or guitar, but I've had lots of guitars and motorcycles, I'm a pretty good rider and player, I'm demanding and I know what I like...and it's never cheap stuff. My NTH fits my life perfectly.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Chuckracer said:


> I checked out youtube reviews before I bought my NTH...Random Rob was the one I recall, a couple more I don't.
> I just sold my C.Ward so my NTH Odin is now my only watch and I'm fine with that. I have a few different straps for it to change things up if necessary.
> I'm not a collector of things, be it a watch, motorcycle or guitar, but I've had lots of guitars and motorcycles, I'm a pretty good rider and player, I'm demanding and I know what I like...and it's never cheap stuff. My NTH fits my life perfectly.


There have been a few watches that I've gotten where I've thought, "ok this could be my only watch." Of the current collection, that would be the Oris D65 and Seiko SPB081. I'd miss having applied indices with the Oris though (I know there are versions with applied indices, but I don't like them nearly as much as the 3/6/9/12 classic dial) and while the emerald dial on the SPB081 is very cool and unique with the gold indices and hands, it doesn't really go with every outfit. For me I feel like a good collection is 5 or 6 pieces, each different enough to justify itself, but without falling into the trap of "1 field watch, 1 diver, 1 dress watch etc." I generally don't like field watches or dress watches. I'm a diver guy, so I'm going to have at least three or four divers in a five or six watch collection.


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> I think the lack of traction in F74 has more to do with the time I wasn't spending there than it has to do with not making a 38mm design or making "too many" of the 40mm Subs.
> 
> I don't think it's about the mix of what we've been making as much as it's about the communication and some other intangibles.


I think these two sentences sum up your lack of brand awareness with F74. NTH cannot (nor should it be) all things to all people. But if you want your watches discussed in F74, you need to be present and part of the discussions over there, too, building brand awareness, goodwill, and epic walls of text.

It is interesting how many people (including me) spend most, or all, of their time in a single forum.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Something I noticed while looking at NTH stuff given the recent discussion - macro shots in general of NTH watches barely exist at all. I googled "NTH Sub" and saw one - a close-up of a Tikuna. "NTH Nacken" - zero. That's not good. I just pulled this shot out of Bruce William's review of the Nazario Ghost. This would make a _MUCH _better hero shot for the NTH website than anything on there right now, and it's technically not even a photograph.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'm not separating them, per se. I think about product all the time. I let my focus on communication slip.
> 
> Let's not assume the baby is still dirty just because we threw out the bathwater.


Ok, let's agree to differ . It's your baby.

It depends where you want to go with this I guess.

My preferred analogy is one of a tent. You've got guy ropes for Product, Price and Place that you've thought through, work together and are reasonably taut. Your fourth guy, Promotion, is slack, very slack . The tent stands up on its own but isn't operating at its potential. You can tighten this fourth guy up a lot and leave everything else as is and the tent will function better. If you want to tighten it up properly, you will almost certainly have to make adjustments to the others.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Davekaye90 said:


> Rolex did it first, in 1934. Those Panerais weren't "dive watches" though, they were big dial watches with radium paint in water resistant cases. There's a reason why the Submariner, Fifty Fathoms, and SSW are considered the first proper dive watches and not those early Panerais. Also, the Zerographe which the Nazario takes its most direct inspiration from was definitely not a diver, it was a porto-chronograph of sorts with a rotating bezel.


I stand corrected on the year. But I'm gonna be stubborn and disagree again, lol. IMHO, if a watch is built by a company, any company, that was purpose built to be worn by combat swimmers, as the Rolex/PAM was, it's a dive watch in my eyes.


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## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I stand corrected on the year. But I'm gonna be stubborn and disagree again, lol. IMHO, if a watch is built by a company, any company, that was purpose built to be worn by combat swimmers, as the Rolex/PAM was, it's a dive watch in my eyes.


I'm not sure what about them being combat swimmers makes the watch different than any other water-resistant watch of the era. Omega had the Marine in 1932, which was rated to go deeper than those Panerais, and even had a diver's extension. The Marine generally isn't credited with being the first dive watch though, because it wasn't a dive watch. It could tell time underwater, just like the Oyster. You'd still have to chart your depth and time ascending by hand. The Marine was actually pretty clever, it used a separate underwater housing that the watch was fitted into, to get around Rolex's patent on the screw-down crown. Divers used them because that's all there was at the time, but I don't think that necessarily makes them "dive watches." The Marine and the Panerai didn't even have running seconds, so there would be no way to tell if the watch had stopped.

The Dive-time bezel is what makes a dive watch a dive watch though, otherwise basically everything with a threaded crown and 100M+ of water resistance is a "dive watch."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Perhaps time to attempt to mend fences? No harm in trying.
> 
> That is, unless you have a true issue with the guy?
> 
> I personally don't watch/read watch blog/vloggers. I've seen two or three, but they really tell me nothing I can't see or figure out on my own in most cases.


Brand owners get a lot of requests for review samples. We can't send a sample to every guy who wants one. We have to turn some of them down.

I shouldn't have to explain my reasons, but I sometimes do, as a courtesy to the reviewer. Most understand and take it well. Some don't, and get angry about it.

Like I told him yesterday, I don't dislike him. I don't even think about him. Yesterday was the first time I'd had any reason to since 3 years ago, when we had our last private exchange.

But yesterday certainly didn't help, if he was looking to "bury the hatchet". That's a funny way of doing it - planting it in my back. Much of what he said about me, and our past exchanges, simply isn't true. And as I told him, even if it was true, what does it gain him by airing out that dirty laundry, and why now, three years after the fact?

I don't know how much damage his comments might do to my business. But any brand owner who sees that might think twice before working with him, and I wonder how many people would be turned off to his channel. So where's the upside for him?

There's a history there, since before that last exchange 3 years ago, stretching back at least a year or two before that. You know the saying, "you only get one chance to make a first impression"? He made a distinct impression, and apparently formed one of me, which clearly colored his perceptions of our subsequent interactions.

To read his descriptions of them, one must wonder why he'd want to do anything which might benefit my business.

Over the years, I've developed a few criteria I use to decide which reviewers I want to work with. It's not a long nor overly strict list, but one hard and fast rule is that the reviewer can't do or say anything to make me fear possible trouble down the line, because of how much trouble I've had with a handful of bad apples in the past. The slightest whiff of crazy, and I'm out.

As I said in that last exchange with him three years ago, he's always free to buy an NTH if he wants to review one that badly. By that point in our ongoing dialogue, I was past trying to put things delicately, which didn't seem to be working. He claimed I misinterpreted his "request to buy one" as a request for a review sample, and called me a d*ck.

It is possible I misinterpreted what he was asking, given the exact wording of his request was to "secure an example for review". It never occurred to me that a reviewer would request to buy a watch, instead of simply buying it, which seems simple enough. Why not just say, "will I be able to buy one before they sell out," if that was his apparent concern?

But there's no misinterpreting it when someone calls you a d*ck.

Don't know if you read all the comments under the video. But if you did, and if you actually saw our entire exchange, both in public and in private, you'd understand why I might not feel comfortable sending him a review sample.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RE - Seiko repairs...

I couldn't find a website for this guy, and it's been at least four or five years since I've been there, which was just for a very minor fix, but this guy is an authorized Seiko repair center, and he's awesome -

National Watch Repairing; 740 Sansom Street 207; Philadelphia, PA 19106 · (215) 925-9159.

Check out these reviews - https://www.yelp.com/biz/national-watch-repairing-philadelphia. The Google reviews are also stellar.

I forget the guy's name. I think it's Korean. He's an older guy, and didn't talk much when I was there, but he doesn't screw around. He does minor fixes while you wait, if you go to his shop. I'm sure if you mail something to him the turnaround time is lightning fast compared to most national repair centers.

If you do go there, it's not easy to find. It's on the second floor of a building on Sansom Street between 7th and 8th, which is our "Jewelers Row", kind of buried towards the back of the building. It looks like the principal's office in a '70's high school, but don't let the looks fool you. They're legit.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Realistically, with all the youtube influencers, you'd either try to get it out to the big ones (as defined by subscriber count), or in a concerted fashion to _everyone_.
> 
> The first option brings the most eyes to the product. The second option kind of establishes the product more deeply in the mind of the watch-obsessives.


Every brand owner wants to get their watch reviewed by the reviewers with the largest audiences. The problem is that those guys get inundated with requests, and many of them are looking to monetize their services - they want brands to pay for press, which calls into question their objectivity.

Getting a review sample out to "everyone", even if that just means "a whole lot of reviewers" isn't feasible.

It takes time to coordinate the reviews. It's not worth it if a reviewer's audience is too small, unless they make it REALLY easy to work with them, or bring some additional value to the table, like fantastic photography / video.

It costs money to do all that shipping, especially if you're doing it internationally. Import duties shouldn't be assessed on samples for review and return, but they often are, which just adds to the expense. I got whacked for $150 by Mexican customs, $100 by UK customs, etc, etc, etc.

I hesitate to mention some of the legitimate complaints I've got with some reviewers, because I've seen how that's led to reviewers going around saying I hate all reviewers, but the truth is they're not all fantastic to deal with.

There have been reviewers who never returned the samples. I've had to spend hours and hours chasing some guys down to find out when they'll post their reviews, and return the samples to me.

I've seen some guys actually put samples they were supposed to return to other brands up for sale on eBay. Samples get "lost in shipping". Reviewers often get some things wrong in their reviews, those things get repeated by others, leading to the brand owner having to go around correcting the record.

Just to put some numbers on this - back when we were selling most of our watches direct to customer, we had a 0.5% conversion rate on visitors to the site (1 in every 200 visitors made a purchase), which is actually really good for this industry. With analytics, we're able to see where all the traffic comes from, and the conversion rate for each traffic source.

The main reason our conversion rate was that high was because 90% of our web traffic at that time was "organic" - people who came to the site by way of searching for the brand name or a specific model, or came via social media, came from WUS, etc. In other words, traffic I was driving to the website myself, by way of my own online engagement.

But the conversion rate for blog reviews at that time was only 0.05%-0.1%, meaning we needed 1,000-2,000 people to come to the website, from the blog or YT review, to sell ONE watch. And unfortunately, the click-through rate on reviews is often very low. We're ecstatic if it looks like 10% of a reviewer's audience visits our site because of their review. But with most reviewers, it's closer to 1%.

Meanwhile, it's not like all of that traffic is 100% due to the reviewer. We post links to the reviews on our website, and on social media, and often in our email newsletter. Thousands of people see the review because we sent them to see it. We're helping to build the reviewer's audience with our efforts, which I see as part of the value for them to review an NTH.

A reviewer with 20k subscribers, who are REALLY engaged, might generate 1 sale. I can't afford to spend hours and hours coordinating the logistics and chasing a reviewer around, and spending the money on shipping and customs, much less pay for the review, or give a guy a sample to keep, or use my own social media reach and email newsletter to promote the reviewer's blog or YT channel, to get one sale.

Beyond all that- by the time we get through 3-4 reviews, we're usually down to so little inventory that it doesn't make sense to keep sending out the review samples. By the time the 5th or 6th review gets posted, the comments section gets filled with complaints that the watch is sold out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaah said:


> Ok, let's agree to differ . It's your baby.
> 
> It depends where you want to go with this I guess.
> 
> My preferred analogy is one of a tent. You've got guy ropes for Product, Price and Place that you've thought through, work together and are reasonably taut. Your fourth guy, Promotion, is slack, very slack . The tent stands up on its own but isn't operating at its potential. You can tighten this fourth guy up a lot and leave everything else as is and the tent will function better. If you want to tighten it up properly, you will almost certainly have to make adjustments to the others.


Trust me, I understand. I've taught classes on product mix vs product focus, pricing strategy, the importance of promotion, etc, for the benefit of other microbrand owners. I think the growth of my business the past 8 years proves I'm not simply throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

Follow my logic here - we've identified a gap in NTH's promotion, specifically the fact that I neglected the dive watches sub-forum by not engaging there more. That doesn't mean the product mix is necessarily lacking, or that the pricing is "wrong". We could have those "right", but not be firing on all cylinders, if the promotion is an area of weakness.

I think our sales, the comments I got here and on FB when I asked people to give their description of the brand, and the comments in that thread bear that out.

All the same - I'll take your comments under advisement, and give them fair consideration.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Follow my logic here - we've identified a gap in NTH's promotion, specifically the fact that I neglected the dive watches sub-forum by not engaging there more. That doesn't mean the product mix is necessarily lacking, or that the pricing is "wrong". We could have those "right", but not be firing on all cylinders, if the promotion is an area of weakness.


I'm curious why you see this as any kind of promotional gap?

Someone mentioned that they think of NTH watches - specifically the subs - less as divers and more as GADA watches. Do you need to actively court the dive-watch-specific community, here or outside of WUS?

As you point out, you consistently sell through runs of watches within your self-imposed optimal 3-month inventory turn time. If you marketed correct to the dive-watch community, what would you be hoping to achieve? Even quicker inventory turn rates? Bigger production runs? Both leading to growing the business? Because otherwise, it sounds very much like you are already where you want to be...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I'm curious why you see this as any kind of promotional gap?
> 
> Someone mentioned that they think of NTH watches - specifically the subs - less as divers and more as GADA watches. Do you need to actively court the dive-watch-specific community, here or outside of WUS?
> 
> As you point out, you consistently sell through runs of watches within your self-imposed optimal 3-month inventory turn time. If you marketed correct to the dive-watch community, what would you be hoping to achieve? Even quicker inventory turn rates? Bigger production runs? Both leading to growing the business? Because otherwise, it sounds very much like you are already where you want to be...


Great question, one I'm not yet certain I can answer with complete confidence.

Let me start with this - historically, the growth of the business has happened in spurts, not in a smooth, linear way. Whenever the growth appears to be topping out, we look for ways to get to the next level.

In 2014, I brought someone in to help with that. We did a lot of data analysis. We found that the business had really strong repeat sales, an indication of customer loyalty. That led to the implementation of the loyalty rewards program.

The next time we hit a plateau, we looked back, and realized that the effort to drive more repeat sales paid off, but in order to become a repeat customer, first someone had to become a customer, by making that first purchase. We can never stop trying to find new customers.

Engaging here (specifically here, this thread, and to some extent, the affordable sub-forum), and on social media is partly about retaining existing customer loyalty, partly about finding new customers.

But at times, it seems like we've maximized the benefit we're going to get out of doing this, so simply doing more of it, in the same way, in the same places, engaging the same segment of the market, isn't going to produce any increase in results.

To find new customers, you have to expand your reach. When your typical customer buys once, and never again, it's all about volume and speed, blanketing the airwaves, flooding the zone. It's a sprint to the finish, not an endurance race.

But when your typical customer buys repeatedly, you need to go deeper, understand what makes them tick, what drives their decisions, what creates brand loyalty. You gotta go a-courtin'...

Ideally, you want to cultivate the customers most inclined towards having any brand loyalty at all. And the more loyalty they have, the better.

A customer who buys whatever watch costs the least for the most specs typically buys once - because he has no brand loyalty, he's only loyal to price. The guy who says I should be charging $200-$500 for a watch might have a lifetime value of $200-$500 for whatever brand he buys. A customer who buys 3 or more NTH's has a lifetime value of $2,000 or more.

If you surveyed a lot of NTH customers, you'd hear a lot of the same feedback. Those that like the brand share many of the same reasons. I'm sure those who decided they don't like the brand also share their reasons.

But I can't survey people who are NOT customers as easily or effectively. I don't want to assume that whatever drives loyalty for my current customers is the same thing that drives loyalty for the customers I haven't converted yet.

Are the guys in F74 that much different than those in F71? I think there are some clear differences, but also many similarities. One thing I notice is that just like here, there are some who are only loyal to price, and some who are fiercely loyal to their favorite brands.

And I want to know why, because I love fierce loyalty. Who doesn't?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As a general response to the discussion about specific design elements, be they the handset on a specific model, or the dial layout, or the bezel markings, as well as all similar deep-in-the-weeds and completely off-topic notions...

Please, let it go. No one cares.

If you request / suggest I do something different - a different handset, or bezel insert, or material, whatever it is, you're on record. I heard you.

I'll consider it, maybe, and if I do, I may want to take my time thinking about it. It's my money at risk if your idea turns out to be stupid (and I've pursued some stupid ideas before, not all of which were my own), not yours. If I don't consider it, I'll have my reasons, which I may or may not want to explain to you, and which may only make sense to me, knowing what I do about my business.

Beating the horse's corpse is only going to make me want to NOT do what you ask, in the hopes you'll stop bringing it up repeatedly, and just go away.

If you continue to press me, I might just bite the hook, and drop a wall of text on you, explaining exactly why your idea is the worst one since my old Army buddy gave my dog an entire meat-lover's pizza, because he had a two-for-one coupon from Domino's.

That's usually the point someone realizes, finally, how annoying they've been, followed by them running around telling anyone who'll listen what a big fat meanie Doc is, ignoring the fact that Doc exercised amazing restraint in patiently tolerating their inanity for months, sometimes years, before reaching the point he just couldn't take it anymore.

The question in that F74 thread is basically, "Why isn't NTH as popular here as it is in F71, or as popular as some comparable brands are here?"

If you think the answer is because of the handset we used on this or that model - out of a dozen different handsets - or a bezel with five numbers on it instead of three, or because we made a few versions with Cali dials, I'm sorry, but that's utter nonsense.

Are you seriously - not facetiously - suggesting that making the Nazario with a Cali dial and cathedral hands is what killed my chances with a whole segment of the market, many of whom are openly telling me they never even heard of NTH? I may need you to draw me a flow chart explaining how you reached that conclusion.

It's not because we didn't make something 38mm, or bronze (or titanium). Could I have sold a 38mm watch, or a bronze watch (or titanium)? It seems I could have, maybe, but that doesn't explain why NTH hasn't gotten traction among guys who routinely lavish gobs of praise on 40mm-44mm steel watches, does it? (Hint - no, it doesn't.)

Here's what it looks like you're doing - you either don't get, or chose to ignore the sincere interest I have in learning what I can in that discussion. Instead of respecting the intent of that thread, you decided to re-open the request lines for something which is off topic and we already discussed. It's possible you don't even have any real interest in actually BUYING IT if I were to fulfill your request, because, unfortunately, sometimes guys just want to hang around here, constantly dragging the discussion off-topic, because they're bored and lack self-awareness, or for reasons I simply can't fathom.

I know I speak for many when I say, please stop.


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> One thing I notice is that just like here, there are some who are only loyal to price, and some who are fiercely loyal to their favorite brands.
> 
> And I want to know why, because I love fierce loyalty. Who doesn't?


Speaking very broadly, loyalty is a lagging indicator driven by overall customer satisfaction and customer effort (how much effort one needs to expend to do business with you) scores. It's clear to me after reading the thread in f74 that the way your partner network and the way your website is set up is hurting your customer effort score with people who aren't familiar with your business model. That is, anyone outside of f71. Or more precisely, anyone who doesn't frequent this thread. Here's a quick and dirty process map of someone wanting to buy your product.










I obviously made some assumptions and typically this would have a research sample larger than 1. That's a lot of steps to give you my money, and I didn't even measure the time it takes to do them. Finding the wanted watch could really slow people down, especially considering how similar a lot of your models are and how many there are on the site. I don't know how likely it is that someone would continue searching after hitting a dead end at a retail partner. Maybe they're really committed and will loop checking retail partners until they find what they're looking for. But some of the retail partner links went to dead ends too, further frustrating the potential customer.

You have the potential to ace customer satisfaction with the 6 and 6 guarantee, and better promotion of your regulation and inspection process. You will not satisfy people who will never be satisfied with a Miyota, or people who would like you and your family to starve so they can have a $300 watch. But you can lower the effort required of the people who are okay with your value for price and just want you to take their money, and the people who are only marginally aware that your brand exists.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> As a general response to the discussion about specific design elements, be they the handset on a specific model, or the dial layout, or the bezel markings, as well as all similar deep-in-the-weeds and completely off-topic notions...
> 
> [So much text deleted]
> 
> I know I speak for many when I say, please stop.


Just make the dressy jump hour and stop yelling at Brad.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Just make the dressy jump hour and stop yelling at Brad.


If Brad gets his jump hour, I want my bronzo. Ill back off the GMT though, if that helps.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> The question in that F74 thread is basically, "Why isn't NTH as popular here as it is in F71, or as popular as some comparable brands are here?"
> 
> ....


Until a couple days ago, I didn't know I was in the "F71" section of the forum. Couldn't tell you the F## for any of the handful of other threads I on-again, off-again follow.

Maybe if I checked (it's in the URL?) I'd discover I'm a unicorn (or brown, manual transmission, diesel wagon)... an F74 frequenting NTH fan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

Yeah, I posted a thread asking why there wasn't more NTH love in the f74 forum and then learned about the f71 forum and apparently how this whole site works. I'm a moderator at a Ducati motorcycle forum and it's way simpler than this place is.
I still don't get why NTH is only discussed, or discussed in depth, here. My only exposure to the brand is the subs. The subs are dive watches, dive watches with the dimensional specs I was looking for. The Random Rob review pushed me over the edge but you know what? Now I wish I'd have bought a brand new one, not like there's anything wrong with my Odin but now after reading this thread for the past couple weeks I want to support Doc and his brand.
So I'd guess your marketing may be working just fine.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Just make the dressy jump hour and stop yelling at Brad.


LQTM...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chuckracer said:


> Yeah, I posted a thread asking why there wasn't more NTH love in the f74 forum and then learned about the f71 forum and apparently how this whole site works. I'm a moderator at a Ducati motorcycle forum and it's way simpler than this place is.
> I still don't get why NTH is only discussed, or discussed in depth, here. My only exposure to the brand is the subs. The subs are dive watches, dive watches with the dimensional specs I was looking for. The Random Rob review pushed me over the edge but you know what? Now I wish I'd have bought a brand new one, not like there's anything wrong with my Odin but now after reading this thread for the past couple weeks I want to support Doc and his brand.
> So I'd guess your marketing may be working just fine.


Chuck, if you bought an NTH, even used, you did support me, and for that, I thank you.

Buying used supports higher resales values. Used market prices are something a lot of guys complain about, and as a result I'd assume (perhaps wrongly) that they actually look at the resale values before buying new.

I mean, you'd HOPE that someone would actually look at used market values before assuming they're low, just because "micro".

Or, perhaps the guy who bought used likes the watch enough to buy a new one next time. Or, maybe if the used market values are high enough, it helps someone opt to spend a little more to buy new instead of used.

So, to the extent people buying used NTHs helps me sell new NTHs, I'm not indifferent to used sales, and sincerely appreciate everyone who buys a used NTH.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> Speaking very broadly, loyalty is a lagging indicator driven by overall customer satisfaction and customer effort (how much effort one needs to expend to do business with you) scores. It's clear to me after reading the thread in f74 that the way your partner network and the way your website is set up is hurting your customer effort score with people who aren't familiar with your business model. That is, anyone outside of f71. Or more precisely, anyone who doesn't frequent this thread. Here's a quick and dirty process map of someone wanting to buy your product.
> 
> View attachment 15452017
> 
> ...


Yep, we're very aware that we've been struggling to get people to understand that our watches are mostly sold through retailers, and to get people to go from our site to the retailers' sites.

That said, one of our retailers recently told me that 70% of the visitors to their website who come from an external referral link are coming from the NTH website. That's a huge number, and clearly shows some of the steps we've taken to get people to migrate from our site to the retailers' sites are working.

We can't assume that the drop-off in visitor migration is a bigger problem than it may be. If someone wants a watch badly enough, they'll find it, especially when our site has a redirect app, a retailer list on the main navigation, and a drop-down of retailers on the product pages. I can't help but wonder how many of the guys pointing this out aren't the ones who are all that interested anyway.

I'm losing track of what I said and where, but within the last year, I sat down with Josh to look at what we could do to improve the website, mostly looking at ways to add brand-building content, but also considering visitor flow and sales path.

We were looking at other sites which really do a great job telling the brand's "story", like the Rolex website, which is purely content, no ecommerce function. Like a lot of brands who only sell through a retailer network, visitors looking to make a purchase will hopefully find the link to a list or map of locations where they can buy the company's products.

The thing is, unlike Rolex, we don't _ONLY_ sell through a retailer network. We still frequently have watches for sale. Even when we don't have any watches for sale, we still sell parts and accessories. The need to maintain the ecommerce function prevents us from having a pure content site.

It's a tough nut to crack. Even if the retailers were taking all the watches we make, we'd still have the parts and accessories. If we wanted the retailers to also stock and sell those, that would be difficult to manage. If we convert to a pure content site, and give up the ecommerce function, without retailers taking over sales of those smaller items, we'd have to come up with some way for customers to order them.

That's where we were with bezel inserts prior to adding them to the website. People had to email us their requests, we had to give them a way to pay which was disconnected from the site, the orders needed to be created manually, etc. It was a pain point for customers and my team, and contributed to the notion many people have that you can't get replacement parts from microbrands. I see having those parts available and easy to buy as another differentiator for NTH.

Part of the solution has to be the retailers doing a better job of letting their customers know they stock NTH. And just like we do, they need to put constant effort into attracting new customers. We've been trying to coach our retailers to that end, creating and providing them with content, pushing for consistency, etc.

If I've been effective at promoting NTH, and getting people to go to the NTH site, then there's no reason why the retailers shouldn't likewise be effective at promoting their stores - and the brands they carry - and getting people to go to their sites.

We're trying to get all retailers to understand that they need to be good at promoting both their stores and NTH. It helps when they see that NTH is doing its part to continue promoting the brand, and directing people to their stores - handing them easy sales.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"I don't see people owning more than one version per model."

Pic from a guy in our FB group, who has 6 of the 7 versions of the v.1 DevilRay, after going to some lengths to hunt down a 1 in 15 WatchGauge LE, and a 1 in 5 no-Date Deep Six...










Repeat customers are awesome. I don't care if a guy buys 1 each of 6 different models, or 6 versions of the same model. I'll take it either way, and I've got many customers who fall into either category.

But if I don't make multiple versions of a model, then I'm cutting my opportunity for repeat sales in half. I can ONLY make a repeat sale to the guy who just wants one of anything, not the guy who'd buy multiple versions of the same thing.

I'm sorry if the proliferation of the Subs turns someone off to NTH, but that person would be overlooking the other models we've produced - the Tropics, the DevilRay, and the 2K1's - and discounting the success we've had with the Subs. He's overlooking the downside of guys complaining that we ONLY made a limited number of something, which has since sold out, when there's still demand. He's overlooking the value for a small brand when the brand is able to amortize the investment in new model development over a larger number of pieces being produced and sold.

It's not like I said, "we're only making 300 of these, and 3,000 of these, because I want you to buy this one, rather than that one." I base our production on our sales. The more apparent demand there is for something, the more we'll make.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Not to nit-pick, and no intention of making an argument I have no hope of selling, but the point I was making around folks perhaps not owning more than one or two of the Subs was that the guys who make up that segment live in your clubhouse... spend time on your Facebook group. 

They're your diehard no matter what fans. And that's great. But I'm curious if you can grow to the next level leveraging that group. 

Edited to add this is in no way meant to be negative or confrontational. I'm a customer myself. I just prefer the new original models to more flavors of the Subs. Just my own opinion. 


Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Not to nit-pick, and no intention of making an argument I have no hope of selling, but the point I was making around folks perhaps not owning more than one or two of the Subs was that the guys who make up that segment live in your clubhouse... spend time on your Facebook group.
> 
> They're your diehard no matter what fans. And that's great. But I'm curious if you can grow to the next level leveraging that group.
> 
> ...


Nope, no harsh tones, I'm picking up what you're putting down.

100% - I can't expect to grow the business just by selling over and over again to the same guys. It doesn't matter if they buy 1 of every model or 12 of one model. Even the most die-hard fan eventually moves on.

I want both. New customers, even if they just buy one NTH, and move on, but ideally, we want repeat sales, and I think it's worth understanding what drives that brand loyalty, not just among our existing customers, but also among the guys we're trying to bring into the fold.

I haven't rejected your argument. I don't see this as either-or. I see it as both/also, and understand that we need to make sure no one sees NTH as a one-model brand, even if one model is being produced in much larger numbers than the others.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm picky and I have a relatively small collection - 7 watches in regular rotation. Not a lot of room for duplicates. And trying to maintain a WPAC-inspired one-out/one-in policy. Also, not like I can dish out hundreds of $$$ without financing by selling something I already have. As a result, I'm a serial buyer of NTH watches. 

Used Antilles, sold. Used Scorpene, sold. New Amphion Commando, sold. New Scorpene Nomad. Now with a few extra bezel inserts on hand, currently sporting the Commando bezel. If inserts had been available when I had the original Scorpene, probably I would have stopped there...

I was influenced to buy the type (Sub homage case style) from WUS, generally; NTH from the threads here in F71. Might as well give it a shot - if it doesn't work out with a used Scorpene, I can sell it at not much loss. But - hey! - love the fit and style. 

That's one of the things I appreciate about NTH Subs - where others complain of changes in superficial details (dials, hands), I look at it as a positive. If I don't like one style or other, there are plenty others to choose from in a case style which I know will wear comfortably. 

Antilles, 2K1, DR? Not my cuppa. Maybe there will be another model family I can't live without, but not at the moment. Sorely tempted by a Barracuda in white, but we'll see. It couldn't replace the Scorpene Commando...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> If I don't like one style or other, there are plenty others to choose from in a case style which I know will wear comfortably.


That's my favorite aspect of the NTH subs. How they fit. There are LOTS of other watches I've admired (and bought), but these fit me better than almost anything else I've owned.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Regarding the pure content vs. e-commerce site issue, have you considered a two-tier site model? The primary tier can host pure content, which would re-direct with a big visible " Go to shop" button to the second tier that hosts the webshop. This might allow you to create a better separation between the two, and to evolve them differently if needed.

In order to make shopping a bit easier, in the shop page for each model you can provide an easy to use "Go to local retailer" link, or better yet links to all retailers where the model is still in stock. Of course this second feature would be a bit more challenging to implement.

I think the variety of the Subs are their strength, not their weakness. I currently own a few, and it is nice to know that after the first model, you know how the case will fit, and have a good idea on the quality and the fit and finish of the watch, so all you have to worry about is whether you like this new design to make a purchase decision. And of course there are many to choose from.

Having said that, I am looking forward to the upcoming Tropics Mk II.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

The top black and orange model is the Bee's Knees!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> Regarding the pure content vs. e-commerce site issue, have you considered a two-tier site model? The primary tier can host pure content, which would re-direct with a big visible " Go to shop" button to the second tier that hosts the webshop. This might allow you to create a better separation between the two, and to evolve them differently if needed.
> 
> In order to make shopping a bit easier, in the shop page for each model you can provide an easy to use "Go to local retailer" link, or better yet links to all retailers where the model is still in stock. Of course this second feature would be a bit more challenging to implement.
> 
> ...


So, we actually have that "go to local retailer" link already built into the product pages. If a model is sold out, there's a button to "Check Retailers" right above a button to "Notify Me When Available".

That "Check Retailers" button used to take you to the page on our site with all the links to the retailers. Now, it keeps you on that product page, and opens up a drop-down of links to retailers.

That's on top of the app which geo-locates site visitors, and asks if they want to redirect to our retailers' sites.

I've seen those two-tier sites, and honestly, I never liked them. I always thought they made it harder and more frustrating for someone looking to buy something.

My first thought here is that sort of structure might only exacerbate the situation. But, perhaps we could structure it in a way that ends up being more effective than what we have.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Doc, I think it would be enlightening for you to ask some friends who are unfamiliar with your site (OK, maybe hard to find such people) to surf it while you watch them do it in real time (consistent with social distancing of course!).

I'm going to transcribe what happens to me (pretending I'm a noob; I've scrubbed cookies etc so I'm getting the noob experience here). This is offered in the spirit of honest constructive criticism.

Here we go: NTH Watches | Quality Timepieces Without all the Hype

Pop-up! Ugh!

"It seems you're in United States. Would you like to be redirected to the closest NTH Retailer?"

I've got no f***ing idea! Which is the best place to get info on the watches?

Well, it's probably here, so I'll click "no".

Already not a big fan of this hard sell I'm getting though. Why would I go to a retailer if I don't know anything about the watches yet?

Anyway, here we go:

*TIME TO GET REAL*
Quality Timepieces Without the Hype
VIEW PRODUCTS

OK, I click on "view products".

Some old dude with a cigar? OK, whatever.

*All Watches*

All watches, good!

Why NTH? What does it mean? Is it "Enth" or "N-T-H"? In algebra, N represents an unknown value of infinite possibilities. The process of solving an equation to find the value of N is a process of reducing the unknown and infinite down to the ...

WTF??? I'm getting some math lesson? MEGO ...

I scroll down to the watches.

Lots o' watches! Good! Let's see &#8230; most have "no reviews" &#8230; do these guys actually sell any of these?

Some are "coming soon". OK, can't buy those.

[And I find no listings of the Thresher and Swiftsure here on the "All Watches" page that includes other "coming soon" watches. But as a noob I don't know this.]

OK, here in the lower left corner, this champagne Antilles looks good! Five reviews too, that's good.

I click on it. Pics look good! A little pricey, but OK &#8230; How do I buy? It seems I can't buy it here, I have to "check retailers". OK, I click.

List of 7 retailers around the world. I'm in the US, so I click on the US retailer.

*NTH*
*Why NTH? What does it mean? Is it "Enth" or "N-T-H"?*
In algebra, N represents an unknown value of infinite possibilities.

Oh crap, more math! Scroll down quick!

Hmm &#8230; many fewer watches here. Antilles, Antilles, &#8230;. nope, no Antilles!!!

OK, I give up. I'm not going to go back and search the world for this thing.

End of hypothetical noob experience.

EDIT: Gruppo Gamma is a microbrand that sells both direct and through retailers, and also sells accessories direct:









Gruppo Gamma Time Instruments


Defiantly non-mainstream. The ultimate tool watch, made by suppliers of high-end luxury timepieces but brought to you by people with soul.




www.gruppogammawatches.com


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Avo said:


> Doc, I think it would be enlightening for you to ask some friends who are unfamiliar with your site (OK, maybe hard to find such people) to surf it while you watch them do it in real time (consistent with social distancing of course!).


Excellent idea. You could use Zoom and record them.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

TikCuda on simple khaki today.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> TikCuda on simple khaki today.
> View attachment 15455838


Vail's finest work looks great with a tan.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> TikCuda on simple khaki today.
> View attachment 15455838


TikiCuda combination really works. Well done!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Doc, I think it would be enlightening for you to ask some friends who are unfamiliar with your site (OK, maybe hard to find such people) to surf it while you watch them do it in real time (consistent with social distancing of course!).
> 
> I'm going to transcribe what happens to me (pretending I'm a noob; I've scrubbed cookies etc so I'm getting the noob experience here). This is offered in the spirit of honest constructive criticism.
> 
> ...


Rather than respond point by point, likely repeating myself or sounding argumentative, I'll ask you to read my response to a similar comment here - Tell me what I can do with NTH to make it appeal more to...


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Just totally taken over the regular rotation..........










Cheerz,

Alan


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

From yesterday. This is one of my two "core" watches, along with an Archimede Outdoor Protect 39. Probably a permanent fixture in my collection.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Rather than respond point by point, likely repeating myself or sounding argumentative, I'll ask you to read my response to a similar comment here - Tell me what I can do with NTH to make it appeal more to...


Doc, I don't need or want a response. This was entirely to help you out (whether you believe that or not).

From your earlier response: "So on the home page, there's a link to products that are "Coming Soon", and a link to those which are "Ready Now"."

Yeah, those links are there. At the bottom of the page. When I go to your home page on my laptop, I don't see those links at all; they're below the lower edge of my browser window. What I see is the "View products" link, which takes me to the page labeled "All Watches". How am I supposed to know that the "All Watches" page does not actually include all watches? There is no link on the "All Watches" page to the "Coming Soon" page, and the "All Watches" page does list watches individually labeled "coming soon" (but not all of them).

Well, I'm done. I think your sub-optimal web design is costing you sales. But of course it's your business to run as you see fit.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So, to get off the topics that have meandered over from one thread to another...

How are the 2K1s looking, Doc? Are y'all still on pace to go on sale before the end of the month? I'm getting all antsy in my pantsy about getting a Swiftsure onto my wrist.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> So, to get off the topics that have meandered over from one thread to another...
> 
> How are the 2K1s looking, Doc? Are y'all still on pace to go on sale before the end of the month? I'm getting all antsy in my pantsy about getting a Swiftsure onto my wrist.


Dude, get out of my head!

I literally just sent my vendor an email a few hours ago, asking for an update.

I'll let you know what I hear when I hear it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Doc, I don't need or want a response. This was entirely to help you out (whether you believe that or not).
> 
> From your earlier response: "So on the home page, there's a link to products that are "Coming Soon", and a link to those which are "Ready Now"."
> 
> ...


Dude, chill. I'm taking all this down. We'll be working through these suggestions soon.

Forgive me for directing you to a response which addresses a lot of these points.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

DevilRay b/c this thread needs more pics.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 15459287
> 
> View attachment 15459288


The Ghost is a great looking watch. I've many times contemplated hunting one down, but I let that idea fade as soon as I saw the DLC Vino Rosso. Fingers crossed John over at WG wasn't shining me on when he said I was first on the waitlist.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

Odin on Barton Leather...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > So, to get off the topics that have meandered over from one thread to another...
> ...


According to the response I got last night, they're in assembly now. So it's looking like we'll be delivering early next month. But I've asked them if they can send me a partial shipment sooner, even half of the order, if possible.

In the meantime, here's some pics they sent. I'm pretty happy with the look of the crown guards, considering how we obsessed over them.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> According to the response I got last night, they're in assembly now. So it's looking like we'll be delivering early next month. But I've asked them if they can send me a partial shipment sooner, even half of the order, if possible.
> 
> In the meantime, here's some pics they sent. I'm pretty happy with the look of the crown guards, considering how we obsessed over them.
> 
> ...


Yup. Still 100% content with my decision to go with the white dial. Can't wait.

Though, what's up with the minute track right there by 6? Just an unfortunate angle and lighting?


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## garydusa (Jan 16, 2013)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Yup. Still 100% content with my decision to go with the white dial. Can't wait.
> 
> Though, what's up with the minute track right there by 6? Just an unfortunate angle and lighting?


Widespread defects which will likely affect the entire production run, and slip through 6 rounds of QC.

Or, and I'm only speculating here, it could be a single defect they'll pull out before assembly, or just some dust on the dial, which will be blown off before assembly, or just the angle / lighting in that pic.

I guess we'll find out...


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> Though, what's up with the minute track right there by 6? Just an unfortunate angle and lighting?


Looks like the ink is very glossy and there's a reflection off it. But the screen I'm viewing on right now is garbage so I could be wrong


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Honestly I'd be more concerned about the clearly yellow dial with the clearly white rehout/chapter ring. 

^ this was my trolly comment of the day, carry on


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Do you want Doc to stop posting previews and behind the scenes kind of stuff? Because...

On the wrist today. Strong lume means awesome transitional light legibility...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Someday, I will learn how to fix the exposure and take decent lume shots, but until that happens, here's a better photo...


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Going to be wearing this combo all week.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Looks like the ink is very glossy and there's a reflection off it. But the screen I'm viewing on right now is garbage so I could be wrong


Sitting here thinking about it, I'm struck by the fact that after doing this for nigh on 8 years, and having gone to some trouble to see as much of the process as possible, there are still many things I don't know and/or can't explain about this stuff.

Dials are transported wrapped in tissue paper, as seen in the background of the pics above. I don't think that would leave any residue on the dial, but if it does, then they must know how to remove it before assembly.

Could be a reflection the camera picked up. Could be a defect they'll pull out before assembly. Could be dust they'll remove. I dunno.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bktaper said:


> Going to be wearing this combo all week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wore my Renegade out to dinner last night. Somehow I seem to have accumulated a lot of shirts that aren't quite blue, not quite gray, and the Renegade is the only watch I own that goes with all of them.


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

I was having trouble finding a strap that would compliment the dial of the Renegade. The one I am wearing is not exactly what I had in mind but it doesn’t look too bad. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Odin day glow


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

92gli said:


> Odin day glow
> View attachment 15466953


Day lume looks awesome.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

More pics for this thread!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RickHoliday said:


> More pics for this thread!
> 
> View attachment 15468323


Agreed.

Here's some early AM lume.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Here's some early AM lume.
> View attachment 15468337


Vail's finest work

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

How can NTH appeal more to the HVAC forum?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> How can NTH appeal more to the HVAC forum?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alright! A fellow blue collar, non desk diver.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Alright! A fellow blue collar, non desk diver.


Sorry to disappoint. That's my own A/C. I did fix it, though.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Sorry to disappoint. That's my own A/C. I did fix it, though.


Hey, you're man enough to admit it. And you're man enough to not hire someone to fix your **** for you.

So, white collar, blue collar, you seem like an ok dude in my book.

Does explain the bright orange vinyl gloves though.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15472462


I'm a little disappointed there's no beard in this top-down shot.

I also realize that would be a weird and difficult shot to take.

Im retrospect, I further realize this was a weird comment to make.

Carry on.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> I'm a little disappointed there's no beard in this top-down shot.
> 
> I also realize that would be a weird and difficult shot to take.
> 
> ...


You're right. It is weird and difficult. Even with a 6" beard.

You're also right in that it was a weird comment to make.

But who am _I_ to deny your wish?









I cropped as much of my ugly mug out to prevent unnecessary vomiting, but left enough to show it's a real beard and not strapped on like a cheap mall santa beard.

I sincerely apologize to all. Please direct your ire at Rotor.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Never too old to be amused by glow in the dark.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Say Beard,

Is that pic a subtle hint for Doc to produce a 'lefty' NTH?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was thinking about the left-hand-drive thing the other day.

It's not just a simple matter of flipping the case around. The dial-feet need to be in a different position, and if there's a date window, the date wheel needs to be re-printed, which causes other issues.

So, if we made one, it would likely be a no-date only version of something. The question is, a no-date version of what?

If the dial is unique, which it would be, given the new dial feet position, we have to make a minimum of 50 of that dial. We could assemble half, but ideally, if we're making a part, I want to see enough demand that we can assemble and sell all 50.

If we're only assembling 25 or 50 pieces of something as it is, it doesn't make sense to assemble _another_ 25-50 with the crown on the left. It would only make sense for our most popular models, the ones that always sell out quickly, and only if we can somehow rationalize doubling the number of no-dates we're making.

With the industry in a slump, and NTH pulling back on Subs production, I just don't see it happening, unless and until we see _a lot_ more demand.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Back to this C300, which is my all-time favorite.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> You're right. It is weird and difficult. Even with a 6" beard.
> 
> You're also right in that it was a weird comment to make.
> 
> ...


PSA: Don't let you online acquaintances snort NTH watches - if you see something, say something.

Hey @TheBearded... you OK? Need an intervention? First step is admitting you have a problem...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I was thinking about the left-hand-drive thing the other day.
> 
> It's not just a simple matter of flipping the case around. The dial-feet need to be in a different position, and if there's a date window, the date wheel needs to be re-printed, which causes other issues.
> 
> ...


When I was playing around with dial swaps, I was near-sure that dial feet were symmetrical, where you could rotate them 180 deg. and end up with the dial still fitting perfectly. At least with Seiko movements/movement holders/dials. But maybe this is not the case and someone more versed in modding will chime in and tell me I'm wrong. And it may have nothing to do with a Miyota 9015 situation. The date issue, I get, since there's an odd number of days in each month...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

9015 unfortunately does not have symmetric dial feet.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> 9015 unfortunately does not have symmetric dial feet.


Ah. What a pain. Then yeah, unless Doc wants to go all-in with a LHC model, fuggedaboutit.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

You could take a date movement, file off dial feet from the dial plate, glue the dial onto the date wheel (with spacer discs if needed), and boom, you get a watch with rotating hands (12 hr cycle) and rotating dial (31 day cycle). Good for LHD and RHD.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> When I was playing around with dial swaps, I was near-sure that dial feet were symmetrical, where you could rotate them 180 deg. and end up with the dial still fitting perfectly. At least with Seiko movements/movement holders/dials. But maybe this is not the case and someone more versed in modding will chime in and tell me I'm wrong. And it may have nothing to do with a Miyota 9015 situation. The date issue, I get, since there's an odd number of days in each month...





X2-Elijah said:


> 9015 unfortunately does not have symmetric dial feet.





mconlonx said:


> Ah. What a pain. Then yeah, unless Doc wants to go all-in with a LHC model, fuggedaboutit.


Close, very close, but not precisely 180 degrees apart.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Non-NTH post. Deal with it.

For those of you that don't follow @atticuswatch on Instagram (what's wrong with you?) here are a couple pics taken by the Mrs over the weekend.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - the left-hand-drive, bronze, titanium, and strap options...They all bring up similar challenges for a brand producing everything in smaller numbers.

Making a bronze or titanium case brings about a new MOQ for the case - 300-500 pieces. The only model we sell in high enough volume to even come close to rationalizing the production of an additional 300-500 pieces (in addition to a steel version) is the NTH Subs. And, oh, yeah, people are already saying we focus on that model too much, and need to do something else.

Suppose we consider NOT making a steel version, and only making a bronze or titanium version. Knowing that a bronze or titanium case is going to increase the price, and seeing the push-back we've gotten about our prices, is a bronze or titanium model going to sell _BETTER_ than a 316L case? Maybe, but I doubt it. My hunch is that the steel case at a lower price will sell better.

The feedback in the dive-watches thread about some people's preference for straps vs bracelets is very surprising, and raises similar issues.

My MOQ on straps is 300 pieces. My MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces. If we're making at least 300 pieces of a watch, the most obvious solution is to include both, the way we did with the v.1 Tropics, but that pushes up the price, which again, is already an issue for some folks.

When we've sold watches with both straps and bracelets, I've seen many people only use one or the other. So I expect a lot of complaints from people who say they'd rather we sold the watch with just the strap or bracelet, at a lower price.

Let's say we make 500 watches. How many should we assemble with the bracelet, and how many with the strap?

Let's say we decide to make 600 watches. We could theoretically make half with the bracelet, and half with the strap, but then we'd need to see equal demand for each. Otherwise, we'll sell through one option, and end up getting stuck with the other.

Let's say we sell out of the strap option, and only have the ones with bracelets left. The strap guys may hold off buying one, instead opting to wait for us to make more with the strap, which isn't going to happen any time soon, if we've still got existing inventory for that model.

Let's say we sell out of the bracelet option. It's the likely the same scenario. In either scenario, we'll get guys asking us if we have any of the strap or bracelet available, either to buy separately, or that we can swap out on request, pre-purchase. I see this already, with guys asking me if we have any of the v.1 DevilRay bracelets available for their v.2 DR.

The only solution would be to buy even more straps and bracelets, and have them available for sale separately, so that either group of guys has the option to buy whichever version of the watch we have available, and also the strap or bracelet they want.

That increases our inventory costs even further. But more concerning to me is that it's more likely we'll end up fielding a lot of requests to do bracelet-strap swaps for people, which ends up being a huge time suck, either for us or our retailers. At best, we end up with a bunch of unsold bracelets or straps. At worst, we actually see slower sales of the watch.

Even if the demand for each option was precisely equal, making the strap or bracelet choice available doubles the number of SKUs we'd be making, which is already becoming an issue.

For the next release of 40mm Subs, we're only making 6 versions (two Barracudas, two Nackens, the Nazario, and the Scorpene), but when you start adding in date/no-date options, choice of oyster or BOR bracelet, and DLC or stainless case, we've ended up with 26 SKUs. The more SKUs in a release, the less efficient we and our retailers are, and the harder it is for all of us to make good decisions about how to distribute that inventory.

As an example, I recommended one of my retailers take between 1 and 4 pieces per SKU, based on how many we are assembling of each. He and I both know it's semi-pointless to create a new product on a website if you've only got 1 piece for sale. So, he was left with the choice of increasing his order size, by ordering more of those SKUs, or simply not ordering those SKUs at all.

I'm trying not to sound argumentative, or defensive about what we're doing. I can't help that the truth is a lot of the suggestions we get aren't anywhere near as easy to implement as many people seem to believe.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

The brilliant thing about this hobby is that if I want a bronze watch, or a Ti watch, or one with the crown on the left, I can get one. And not bother Doc about it. 

And if there's something I don't like about this watch or that watch, there are always mods. 

Like seriously, if I wanted a bronze NTH sub, and know that Doc isn't going to do one, maybe I'll pick up a San Martin 62MAS or Sub in bronze and mod whatever I don't like about it. Will it be a bronze NTH sub? Nope, but it will be 98% of what I was looking for out of the deal, and maybe better in some respects. 

Seeing threads about people making suggestions to brand owners is always fun: "Yeah, you make a decent watch, but have you considered making exactly what you are doing right now, except completely different...?"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> ...here are a couple pics taken by the Mrs over the weekend.


The missus has man-hands.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> The brilliant thing about this hobby is that if I want a bronze watch, or a Ti watch, or one with the crown on the left, I can get one. And not bother Doc about it.
> 
> And if there's something I don't like about this watch or that watch, there are always mods.
> 
> ...


I'm somewhat more used to it now than I was some years back. Which is to say, I think I'm handling it better now than I did back then.

It's not just the "make me what I want (and maybe I'll buy it)" aspect of online watch discussion, which often just turns into finding out a hundred different ways to make a Homer-mobile.










It's also the simple fact that if I get 100 opinions, I'll almost certainly be getting contradictory opinions on every issue, forcing me to go through the process I always have - read, digest, sort, weigh, filter, assess, disqualify, etc.

And then there's the mind-numbing aspect of being told our problem is something which it can't possibly be, like the sold-out thing, or that we don't post to Instagram enough (we post 2-3 times per day, on average).

I've been told we're sold out of everything when we had a half-dozen or more models available on our website (not just from retailers). Either the person complaining hadn't bothered to actually look at the site, or what they really meant is they didn't want what we had available, which is a completely different discussion.

I've gotten complaints from guys saying they've been looking for something for months, when in fact what they're looking for is readily available, or just sold out days earlier, after being available for months, and us doing everything within our power to make everyone on the planet aware of it.

All that said - a lot of the feedback we've gotten has been valuable. I spent half the day with my marketing team on Friday, going through the list of suggestions from the F74 thread, prioritizing them, and putting together a plan to implement those we see as having the highest potential impact.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Say Beard,
> 
> Is that pic a subtle hint for Doc to produce a 'lefty' NTH?


A destro NTH would be pretty cool imho.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> The missus has man-hands.


Playin' with fire there, doc...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Playin' with fire there, doc...


Even man-hands can be burned...


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

hwa made me do it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...for what would seem to be obvious reasons, the topic of design decisions has been top-of-mind lately.

I was just talking to John from Watch Gauge, going over his inventory, among other things. As I often do, after getting his inventory numbers, I'll look at my other retailers' sites, to see if anything has sold out since I received their most recent inventory update. Sure enough, everyone but John is sold out of the Amphion Vintage Gilt now, and John has the last 2 dates / 2 no-dates left in the world.

That got me thinking about calling him back to tell him that, so he can tell his customers, or coming here to tell you all. I also started to wonder, "is that it, or might we ever make more?" I mean, if we're going to say those are the last 4 pieces left, it's probably worth qualifying that by stating whether or not we'll ever make more, and when that might be.

We made 100 for that March 2020 release, 50 dates and 50 no-dates. I don't think my OEM would have many extra dials left. So, at least for now, that's it, and if you put a gun to my head, I'd say it's probably all there will ever be.

Why?

That got me thinking about Gabe, aka @uvalaw2005 . He bought a Barracuda Vintage Black, before flipping it (ironically, to me). He said he didn't like snowflake hands. I'm certain about that. I'm reasonably sure that at some point, he said he likes sword hands, and might have gone so far as to say he'd buy a gilt-relief Amphion, if we ever made one, which, we did.

A man of his word, he bought one. Not all that ironically, it was meant to be a sample I'd sent him for some photos to be taken. He didn't want to return it.

But when I asked if he thought it was a "keeper", or just a "Gabe-keeper" (Gabe's flipped more watches, and flipped a lot of them more quickly, than anyone else I've ever seen), i.e, something that might stay in his possession longer than a week, he said it was probably just a Gabe-keeper.

I'm not mad at him. He bought both watches, sold me the Barracuda for a very fair price, and if he's sold the Amphion, as I figure he has by now, he probably got a fair (which is to say, lower than I may have liked) price for it. I can't be mad that he sold it, nor do his reasons matter much to me, as I figure I probably already know them.

He's very fickle in his tastes, flips so frequently I suspect it borders on clinically compulsive behavior, and he's been trending towards a smaller collection of more expensive pieces. He's a friend, and knowing how many "nice" watches he's owned, I value his input. But none of that is my point here.

The point is - we made the Barracuda Vintage Black. Even though it was a raging success, someone (in this case, Gabe) had a complaint about it, namely, the hands. So we did something to address that complaint (once again proving I do actually listen, all the claims to the contrary notwithstanding), and we sold a few more watches as a result.

Was the Amphion Vintage Gilt as successful as the Barracuda Vintage Black? If it was, I wouldn't be wondering if or when we might make more, we'd have sold out and ordered more of them already.

The fact that Gabe is as fickle as he is doesn't matter. It doesn't. There are lots of fickle guys here, and a lot of serial flippers. Someone's reasons for why they bought, but then sold a watch are worth hearing, but ultimately are less important to me than why someone does or doesn't buy the watch in the first place.

What sticks out to me in all of this is...not only would trying to please Gabe be an exercise in futility for me, so would trying to address most of the reasons people give for not buying something. The Barracuda-Amphion thing proves that, I believe.

Tell me the difference in their bezel inserts is the big sticking point, not the hands? We sell the inserts for both. I don't think the Amphion's busier insert explains why the Barracuda outsold it so handily.

I do think the fact that the Barracuda sold so much better flies in the face of all the comments from guys (like Gabe) who say they don't like snowflake hands. Apparently a lot of folks love them, which surprised the hell out of me. Five years ago, I'd have bet all my money that more people would prefer sword hands, by a huge margin. Based on what people said about snowflake hands, I expected the Amphion to outsell the Nackens, by a lot. The opposite happened.

I think the same is true for a lot of what I read here and elsewhere, from watch geeks. Would we sell more 38mm Subs than 40mm Subs? Maybe, but I doubt it.

I could be wrong. I would have been wrong if I bet all my money on sword hands over snowflakes, five years ago. But I could also be right. I've got a lot more data and experience to rely upon now than I did five years ago. By the time we made the Amphion Vintage Gilt this past March, I'd already deduced that people seem to actually prefer snowflakes to swords.

We only made that version because demand for the Barracuda seemed to drop off after we'd made 300 pieces last year, and because I thought, "well, if Gabe likes sword hands, there are probably others who feel the same, and everyone seems to love the gilt-relief dials, and everyone seems to hate mercedes hands, so..."

I could have ordered 50 of them, and held the remaining 50 in reserve, but I rolled the dice a little, by ordering all 100 assembled for March. Judging by how they actually sold, the first 50 would have sold out within a month, leading to me ordering more, which we likely would have received by now.

But that next 50 would probably take 4-5 months to sell. Is there much of a difference between selling ~100 in ~6 months, and selling two batches of 50 over the same length of time, but with a 3-6 month break in the middle? I dunno, but I guess the way we did it meant one less model people could say they wanted but couldn't buy, because it was sold out for those 3-6 months. I'm not sure what difference it would have made to my or my retailers' cash-flow.

No doubt things seem a lot easier when you don't actually own the business, and don't have to live with the outcomes of all these decisions, very few of which are easy to make, even with all the information I have.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Nothing like being called borderline mentally ill to know who your friends are.

The continued success of the Black Bay, Black Bay 58, and Pelagos (not to mention the prices of the vintage snowflake subs) should be a strong indicator that snowflake hands have a robust market. I even owned the Pelagos for a few months despite not loving the snowflake hands because the other qualities were so strong.

The BVB also may have benefited from the novelty of the gilt dial, which had only previously been available on the limited edition Carolina. I suspect some people could go for either snowflake or sword hands but already had their gilt dial interest satisfied by the BVB.

Anyway, here's a picture.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^The key word there is "borderline".

Anyhoo, among Gabe's other complaints, I believe there's the recurring issue of the definition of the center-section of the end-link. I'm 100% certain it's been a frequent complaint from @hwa.

So, once again proving I actually do listen, I looked into how it could be improved. Thus, I give you, the new and improved end-links, seen here on the 2K1's, but the next batch of 40mm Subs will also feature this improvement.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> ^The key word there is "borderline".
> 
> Anyhoo, among Gabe's other complaints, I believe there's the recurring issue of the definition of the center-section of the end-link. I'm 100% certain it's been a frequent complaint from @hwa.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to seeing it in person. October is coming up quick...


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## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 15474195


I own two NTHs and couldn't tell you how that end link differs from the ones I already have. 🤷‍♀️

Maybe I should start being that picky. Might save a lot of money that way.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> I own two NTHs and couldn't tell you how that end link differs from the ones I already have.
> 
> Maybe I should start being that picky. Might save a lot of money that way.


You can pick your friends, but not their end-links.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Looking forward to seeing it in person. October is coming up quick...
> View attachment 15474310


The pics my factory sends continue to be amazing...

There were another dozen or so of these. All worse.






























Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Nothing like being called borderline mentally ill to know who your friends are.
> 
> The continued success of the Black Bay, Black Bay 58, and Pelagos (not to mention the prices of the vintage snowflake subs) should be a strong indicator that snowflake hands have a robust market. I even owned the Pelagos for a few months despite not loving the snowflake hands because the other qualities were so strong.
> 
> ...


Only to entertain the discussion a bit longer, for the sake of supporting my earlier point...

It may be that the Amphion Vintage Gilt didn't sell as well because some folks got their gilt fix with the Barracuda, but I don't think so. We had plenty of people asking when we'd be bringing back the BVB while the AVG was readily available. The Näckens outsold the Amphions before the gilt dials came along.

When the idea to make a "Polar" Sub came to me, it never even crossed my mind to use sword hands, and no one's yet asked if we'll make a sword hands version. Meanwhile, there are four times as many people on the waiting list than there are polar Barracudas being assembled.

I can't always explain the observations. I just make the observations. And I often observe that what actually sells often flies in the face of what people seem to think will sell.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Peteagus said:


> hwa made me do it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is that 36 or 38mm?


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

RotorRonin said:


> Is that 36 or 38mm?


36mm, alpha case

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Only to entertain the discussion a bit longer, for the sake of supporting my earlier point...
> 
> It may be that the Amphion Vintage Gilt didn't sell as well because some folks got their gilt fix with the Barracuda, but I don't think so. We had plenty of people asking when we'd be bringing back the BVB while the AVG was readily available. The Näckens outsold the Amphions before the gilt dials came along.
> 
> ...


...holding the thought for now


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Only to entertain the discussion a bit longer, for the sake of supporting my earlier point...
> 
> It may be that the Amphion Vintage Gilt didn't sell as well because some folks got their gilt fix with the Barracuda, but I don't think so. We had plenty of people asking when we'd be bringing back the BVB while the AVG was readily available. The Näckens outsold the Amphions before the gilt dials came along.
> 
> ...


To entertain it just a little further, I never suggested the Amphion Vintage Gilt would sell well. I made no representations or predictions about market appetite for such a model. I said that I would buy one, which I did. To the extent you inferred that because I said I would buy one they would be more popular than they are, that was your mistake, not mine. I've always supported your reluctance to build models based on the idiosyncratic desires of individual customers, myself included.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> To entertain it just a little further, I never suggested the Amphion Vintage Gilt would sell well. I made no representations or predictions about market appetite for such a model. I said that I would buy one, which I did. To the extent you inferred that because I said I would buy one they would be more popular than they are, that was your mistake, not mine. I've always supported your reluctance to build models based on the idiosyncratic desires of individual customers, myself included.


Oh, please don't misunderstand me. I mentioned you only because you were featured in my train of thought yesterday. I didn't mean to suggest I made the AVG because you said I should. Sorry if that seemed to be the implication.

I wanted to make more gilt-relief versions of the Subs, and a sword-hand version seemed like the most obvious option, if the alternatives are mercedes hands, which a lot of people hate, or pencil hands, which we already used on the Carolina. Making the AVG was completely my choice.

My point was only that I get a lot of people suggesting / requesting various things, or stating various preferences, all of which I mentally file under the heading of "You should make *__*."

I've had plenty of people say they don't like snowflake hands, and it seems like they're seen as "Tudor" hands, making every watch which uses them a "Tudor homage" in some people's view.

We don't see that with sword hands. I don't get people saying they hate sword hands, or that any particular brand owns the franchise on their use.

This isn't all about the hands. It's about the bezel, the case size, the end-links, and a dozen other things people debate.

From what I've seen, making products according to enthusiasts' stated tastes is a tricky thing. It's not always as easy as gathering input, making the product according to what enthusiasts say they like, and quickly selling out.

Counter-intuitively, the designs which are the most divisive often sell the best, and those which seem the most "safe" sell the worst. And yet, sometimes, I've found completely the opposite, in that designs which are too niche in their appeal fall flat.

Whenever we're working to develop a new design, I'm constantly thinking about trying to thread that needle perfectly. We want something with broad appeal, but not too bland. Original, but still familiar. Distinctive, but not alien. There are so many variables we have to think about.

We could get a lot of things really right, but still earn a collective "meh" if the overall package doesn't sufficiently stir the emotions. People are more likely to look past end-links they don't like on a watch they otherwise love than they are to buy a watch they don't really love just because we nailed the end-links.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Predicting what will sell and what will not. NTH is proof of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (in the simplest terms I can understand):

The uncertainty principle implies that it is in general not possible to predict the value of a quantity with arbitrary certainty, even if all initial conditions are specified.

Or if you prefer:

The uncertainty principle is the concept that *precise, simultaneous measurement of sales of some complementary variables watches such as by the size and color of a sub -- is impossible*.

So the Uncertainty Principle works for both subs; sub-atomic particles and sub-style watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Predicting what will sell and what will not. NTH is proof of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (in the simplest terms I can understand):
> 
> The uncertainty principle implies that it is in general not possible to predict the value of a quantity with arbitrary certainty, even if all initial conditions are specified.
> 
> ...


I've read this three times and I'm still not sure if I understand what it says.

I've had this one idea for a new model for a couple years. I have no idea if it will sell well or not. But it's different, not something you see any other brands doing. I'm thinking about making it just because it's different.

Part of me thinks that if we make something really different, it will prevent people from doing that "I can get a [diver, pilot, field watch, etc] with the same specs and components for less" thing.

But another part of me thinks that it doesn't matter. We could make the most unique, most amazing design ever, and we'd still have jackwagons coming out of the woodwork to remind us that some other watch has the same specs and components but sells for less.

I'm so over it...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I've read this three times and I'm still not sure if I understand what it says.
> 
> I've had this one idea for a new model for a couple years. I have no idea if it will sell well or not. But it's different, not something you see any other brands doing. I'm thinking about making it just because it's different.
> 
> ...


Haters will always hate Doc, it's a no win situation.

However if you exclude them from the equation then there will always be those of us that think...mmmm, that's different, bet no one else has got one of those.... must have.

Hence why Immelmann and Kaventsmann have a following despite being quite pricey and using workhorse movements in many instances.

It will be interesting to see what you are thinking there!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> The pics my factory sends continue to be amazing...
> 
> There were another dozen or so of these. All worse.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Ha. I assumed you only showed the "bad" pics to the public so that you leave a little bit to the imagination.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I've read this three times and I'm still not sure if I understand what it says.


I'm not thinking it was intended as criticism. To me it just says "no matter how much research you put into something, the outcome is still unknown." So, your observation of "there's no telling how buyers will react" is valid. 
But just for scientific honesty, here's an article about the Principle, for those with an hour to kill:
Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle


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## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

Wittiest restroom graffiti I've ever seen, as a university student in the Physics building on campus:

Heisenberg may have slept here


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Predicting what will sell and what will not. NTH is proof of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (in the simplest terms I can understand):
> 
> The uncertainty principle implies that it is in general not possible to predict the value of a quantity with arbitrary certainty, even if all initial conditions are specified.
> 
> ...


I thought the Heisenberg principle was about (this is all from memory) broadly and imprecisely :
_The action of observing something, alters/interacts with the result of what you see._
*I'm doing this in the spirit of clarification, as I largely agree with what you say.

So with a photon by _measuring_ it:
- If you see _where_ it is, you can't tell how _fast_ it's moving.
.. conversely..
- If you can tell how _fast_ it's going, you can't see _where_ it is.

In your metaphor above, are the complimentary variables velocity and position, being replaced by watch size and watch colour ?

To take this back to cats in boxes with lethal pots of radioactive material.
Because of the impossibility of measuring radioactive material, you can't know whether the material has decayed and killed poor kitty.
Crucially it's a theoretical experiment, not practical.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Heisenberg may well have contemplated a principle; nonetheless, he still knew what he was doing and so bought an NTH Sub...........

Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I'm not thinking it was intended as criticism. To me it just says "no matter how much research you put into something, the outcome is still unknown." So, your observation of "there's no telling how buyers will react" is valid.
> But just for scientific honesty, here's an article about the Principle, for those with an hour to kill:
> Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle


I didn't take it as criticism. I took it as agreement, but of the nerdiest flavor, which I dig, in a Star-Wars geek kind of way.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I thought the Heisenberg principle was about (this is all from memory) broadly and imprecisely :
> _The action of observing something, alters the result of what you see._
> 
> So with a photon by _measuring_ it:
> ...


All that sounds more familiar.

It's amazing how much I seem to have picked up regarding quantum physics and other nerdy stuff I have no reason to know. The only practical benefit for me seems to be finding humor in silliness like this...










Getting back to what was the topic - I wasn't trying to make any particular argument, just acknowledging some of my own observations and experience...

Namely, producing watches according to what online watch-geeks say they like works sometimes, but not always. Listening to others' suggestions has been hit-or-miss for me. Design by consensus rarely seems to work.

My gut instincts may be right more often than not, but I can't always logically explain why something works and something else that's seemingly very similar doesn't, without finding apparent contradictions in my own logic.

Why is black the most popular dial color overall, and yet with some designs, the black-dialed version is the worst-seller? Why do some designs only seem to work in white, or blue?

Why do so many watch-geeks say they want smaller sizes, and yet we see over and over again how the market keeps finding its way back to that 40mm-42mm range?

I think some of it can be explained by noting how tribal enthusiasts can be. Each sub-segment of the market is a thin-slice of an already narrow niche. Crossing segment boundaries often brings about a completely different set of expectations, and within each segment, there may be groups with conflicting desires, who'll send mixed signals.

So, predicting what will sell before it's offered for sale, with any degree of certainty, is impossible, even for me, and thus I don't expect any random watch-geek to have a lock on it either.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> I'm not thinking it was intended as criticism. To me it just says "no matter how much research you put into something, the outcome is still unknown." So, your observation of "there's no telling how buyers will react" is valid.
> But just for scientific honesty, here's an article about the Principle, for those with an hour to kill:
> Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle


I've just read that. From what I can gather, it may or may not be the act of observing that alters the result. It may be the result is just fuzzy (indeterminate) regardless of the observation... 
I'm not sure if I'm more, or less certain than was before. (Yes that's a pun 🤦‍♂️) I studied arts, so this might all just be coming out my as...

To take it back to NTH watches. I think they're the most beautifully constructed and finished watches in their class. 
As I've only very recently started looking at divers in the 40mm range. When the right combination of speed and position, sorry I mean right dial type/colour and hands is available, I want one.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> All that sounds more familiar.
> 
> It's amazing how much I seem to have picked up regarding quantum physics and other nerdy stuff I have no reason to know. The only practical benefit for me seems to be finding humor in silliness like this...
> 
> ...


Vocal minorities.

If things are going right for a majority, what do they have to complain about? They will largely remain silent. No outrage, no news.

People with an axe to grind, strong feelings about something - size, dial color, hands, category - will give you an earful. And again, if what they are commenting on isn't a problem for a majority, you'll never hear from that majority because most people avoid conflict.

People: "Your subs are boring, too many others out there like it, with better VFM!"
NTH: [Makes something unique.]
People: ...
NTH: Um, hey, people, something new and different...
People: Yeah, but not like that. And also, poor VFM.

There will be a small, enthusiastic core of buyers, and the rest will be all, "OK, but when are you going to restock Barracuda and Nacken???"

Someone mentioned different branding for different styles of watches - maybe resurrect Lew & Huey or go with something new for something very different than what you've been doing with NTH.

OTOH, I see stuff like Visitor, DiRenzo, and Zelos doing well with offerings that aren't the tried and true designs. Elshan just released a limited run of Timascus watches in the 1400-1600 range, and while there were those who were all, "Pff, that much for something with an NH35 movement?!?", I believe he sold out within the first hour of release...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Vocal minorities.
> 
> If things are going right for a majority, what do they have to complain about? They will largely remain silent. No outrage, no news.
> 
> ...


You're echoing some of my own recent thoughts.

Pricing and other criticisms will always be there, along with the suggestion that I shouldn't listen to supporters as much as the critics.

As if the opinions of people who actually support the business should matter less than those who don't, and likely never will, unless and until the business teeters on the brink of insolvency, and its owner is on the verge of a heart attack.

Life's too short. If the growth of my business is slowed down by limiting its appeal, yet I'm comfortable with how it's doing, I'll take that over what I see a lot of my competitors going through. I don't want to spend my time discussing how some of my competitors seem to run their businesses like non-profits.

Focusing only on design, those three brands - Visitor, DiRenzo, and Zelos - are all interesting, in their own ways, inasmuch as they all seem to have developed a signature style all their own.

Are they and the other brands mine gets compared to "successful", though? As successful as NTH has been? We'd have to define "success" first, before we can answer. And people would need to know and consider a lot of things the brand owners don't share, tales I'm not about to tell out of school. People don't know which brand owners are struggling, or how.

I have my own definition of success. It doesn't include or require making any comparisons to any other brands. It's about what this business does for its customers, and for me and my family, period, full stop.

As long as we're growing the customer base, turning customers into fans, constantly improving, and my family isn't struggling, the business is successful. I don't need 100% WIS approval of what we're doing. That's not what pays my family's bills. I sleep just fine without it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Basically, in a nutshell... people are stupid and finicky.

There is no way in hell to please all the people, all the time. It's just not gonna happen. The best thing anyone can feasibly accomplish is to please _a lot_ of the people _most _of the time.

Absolutely strive for the best. Be it new original designs, or tried and true "homages". Not one piece is going to make everyone happy. Someone, somewhere will _always _find something to b*tch about(it's just a Miyota, it's too expensive, it's too big, it's too small, it's not ISO, on and on...) and unfortunately they're the most vocal about it. The ones who are happy as a pig in sh*t with their new purchase will always be drowned out by the naysayers and complainers.

If a new design fails, say "fu*k", figure out why it failed, and apply the newfound knowledge to future endeavors.

I'm done rambling now.


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## jmariorebelo (Jan 14, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> OTOH, I see stuff like Visitor, DiRenzo, and Zelos doing well with offerings that aren't the tried and true designs. Elshan just released a limited run of Timascus watches in the 1400-1600 range, and while there were those who were all, "Pff, that much for something with an NH35 movement?!?", I believe he sold out within the first hour of release...


People who still think the movement in a watch is the most expensive part and a fair way of accessing value shouldn't be paid attention. If they think a 5KX is the same as a DevilRay just because they have the same movement, and "it's poor VFM", they're just beyond saving. Same with those heat treated Timascus Zelos. The cases alone, I'd bet, cost 15 to 20 times the price of the movement...

A practical example straight from the brand founder: Fears watches. Powered by a ETA 7001, which costs around $250. The hour and minute hands alone cost more than the movement.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> When the idea to make a "Polar" Sub came to me, it never even crossed my mind to use sword hands, and no one's yet asked if we'll make a sword hands version. Meanwhile, there are four times as many people on the waiting list than there are polar Barracudas being assembled.


Woah. I think I got in early enough with John to be near the top of the list... Guess I'll find out.

I will tell you this and it is no joke - when I first saw them, I was all, "Man, too bad they don't have sword hands..." Why? 1) I liked my Amphion Commando with sword hands, and 2) BSHT MilSub Friday.

But I've come around and am now very much appreciating snowflake hands. Rusty's Atticus Pelion looks pretty darn sharp. While I think the Barracuda Polar is sweet enough to buy one, I bet a Nacken Polar would be straight-up fire, too...


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## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

Doc, glad to hear about new ideas rambling around your head. I know you're understandably tightlipped so not asking for more detail, just wanted to add my voice as another that appreciates something different, perhaps even left field.

So anyway, was reading an article on renormalization and came across this passage:

"Repeating the process, he smoothed the lattice's fine details, zooming out to *grok* the system's overall behavior."
emphasis mine

Grok eh, sounds a bit like what Doc's doing in F74. Wouldn't it be a wonder to see that term used in a WOT.

Also, if you've got 18 minutes for some cool graphical maths:


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

devilsbite said:


> Doc, glad to hear about new ideas rambling around your head. I know you're understandably tightlipped so not asking for more detail, just wanted to add my voice as another that appreciates something different, perhaps even left field.
> 
> So anyway, was reading an article on renormalization and came across this passage:
> 
> ...


Isn't 'grok' or 'grokking' a phrase Timothy Leary came up with at Millbrook, to describe a level of 'deep' (for lack of a better word) communication between people? And after that it was used by psychedelic music enthusiasts to describe 'deep' listening to music?
Edit: Just taken time to google it. I was wrong, turns out it was invented by the author R Heilien. Though I do happen to know his book "Stranger in a Strange Land" was popular amongst the Millbrook residents.

Video looks good. I'll watch it when I get a chance


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

If you make something some people love, they will buy it. If you make something people like, they probably won’t. 

If you make something everyone likes, you’ll only be making someone no one loves.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

RotorRonin said:


> If you make something some people love, they will buy it. If you make something people like, they probably won't.
> 
> If you make something everyone likes, you'll only be making someone no one loves.


But on the plus side, you'll be rich.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Speaking of what some of us love, Amphion Dark Gilt....


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Random early morning WUS-browsing thought....

Actually what NTH is doing with the subs is very similar to what Seiko is doing lately with their sporty/dive watches. Both brands basically establish a "platform" model (e.g. the nth sub, the seiko turtle/samurai/willard/etc.), market it towards watch enthusiasts, and then keep regularly putting out a couple of new variations (varying dial colour, bezel, hands) on a drip-feed to keep up constant pattern of "new" releases of basically the same watch.
So far, it seems to work for both Seiko and NTH.

On the seiko forum, this thread may be of interest, as an example of an ever growing attitude towards such practice. Seiko Limited Editions - Genius or Banal?

However, that is a minority opinion. People otherwise are buying all the re-re-re-rereleases left and right, at full retail/msrp. So this tactic works well for Seiko. Moreover, they have very successfully moved out of the perception of being "the cheap good watch brand". So, as much as it would be against my self-interest as a watch buyer...

Perhaps there are some strategies and patterns for NTH to learn from Seiko's actions in past couple of years? Because the Seiko of 2020, in watches, pricing, perception, value, etc. is not the Seiko of 2010, and it's all to Seiko's benefit.

( mentioning this because of that dive forum thread and, well... idk if there is any value in chasing what other microbrands are doing considering that NTH is (arguably one of) the most stable, steady volume-making and volume-selling microbrand... So maybe better to look at other brands that are successfully making their "next step", like Seiko, ChrisWard and the like)


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Or


X2-Elijah said:


> Random early morning WUS-browsing thought....
> 
> Actually what NTH is doing with the subs is very similar to what Seiko is doing lately with their sporty/dive watches. Both brands basically establish a "platform" model (e.g. the nth sub, the seiko turtle/samurai/willard/etc.), market it towards watch enthusiasts, and then keep regularly putting out a couple of new variations (varying dial colour, bezel, hands) on a drip-feed to keep up constant pattern of "new" releases of basically the same watch.
> So far, it seems to work for both Seiko and NTH.
> ...


I think that's an interesting thought. I agree that's the way Seiko hooks in the watch fans and then keeps feeding the 'habit' with LE's, and incremental changes, unnoticeable to normal people.

And as a way for micro brands (however defined) to expand their portfolio, is for them to do the LE thing to hook in the punters. Then expand the business by introducing a new model.
I've often thought that if NTH produced an explorer/field watch with as much thought and care as their subs, it'd _really sell._ That's assuming a company wants to expand, and are interested in different model types.

But where I question your thesis is over the place watch enthusiasts have in Seiko thinking.
I'm fairly sure 80/90% of Seikos business is quartz mall watches, or entry level Japanese salary man, don't rock the boat, and have a cheaper Seiko than the boss.
I've always thought that the more exciting +$400 automatic, WIS aimed Divers and Presages were a _halo range_. They give the company horological chops and pride.
It does incidentally explain the big jump in prices recently. They're aimed specifically at fans. They're not for the price conscious one watch every ten years shopper.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

catsteeth said:


> Isn't 'grok' or 'grokking' a phrase Timothy Leary came up with at Millbrook, to describe a level of 'deep' (for lack of a better word) communication between people? And after that it was used by psychedelic music enthusiasts to describe 'deep' listening to music?
> Edit: Just taken time to google it. I was wrong, turns out it was invented by the author R Heilien. Though I do happen to know his book "Stranger in a Strange Land" was popular amongst the Millbrook residents.
> 
> Video looks good. I'll watch it when I get a chance


I thought it was from Robert Heinlein's Classic sci fi book Stranger in a Strange Land, which I read as a kid. Anyone know?

EDIT: Just saw the update - I love being right! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ike2 said:


> I thought it was from Robert Heinlein's Classic sci fi book Stranger in a Strange Land, which I read as a kid. Anyone know?
> 
> EDIT: Just saw the update - I love being right!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I read it many years ago. Firstly because I like intelligent hard sci-fi - I M Banks, A Reynold, etc. Secondly because T Leary read it, and I was very into that many years ago. Along with Jefferson Airplane, 13th Floor Elevators, The Seeds, etc

It's nice bring right


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## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

FWIW I would be interested in what a $1000 NTH watch would be like, don't know if there's an appetite for it but I think a higher tier of Sub could be really cool (or whatever really).


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

jjmc87 said:


> FWIW I would be interested in what a $1000 NTH watch would be like, don't know if there's an appetite for it but I think a higher tier of Sub could be really cool (or whatever really).


Put a SW300 in it and a ceramic insert on the bezel. Along with the upcoming bracelet with better end-links and NTH's warranty, QC and customer service...I'd pay $1500 or so for it, easily.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

jjmc87 said:


> FWIW I would be interested in what a $1000 NTH watch would be like, don't know if there's an appetite for it but I think a higher tier of Sub could be really cool (or whatever really).


Move to Canada.

They look surprisingly similar to the USA versions...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

bolts40 said:


> Put a SW300 in it and a ceramic insert on the bezel. Along with the upcoming bracelet with better end-links and NTH's warranty, QC and customer service...I'd pay $1500 or so for it, easily.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


That would only add a few hundred to the production cost. I think $1500 would be a lot. $999 would be more realistic

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

bolts40 said:


> Put a SW300 in it and a ceramic insert on the bezel. Along with the upcoming bracelet with better end-links and NTH's warranty, QC and customer service...I'd pay $1500 or so for it, easily.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I dunno if I'd pay $1500... But I'd happily pay $1100-1200 if it had an SW300 inside.

I'd pay $1500 if it had a 330 or 360 inside though. But at least for now, Doc has no plans for a GMT, and I dunno if he's a fan of the small seconds hand.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> That would only add a few hundred to the production cost. I think $1500 would be a lot. $999 would be more realistic
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Sounds good to me!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I wouldn't buy a $1k NTH. No disrespect to the brand - at the moment, I wouldn't buy any watch for $1000. Don't care about refinements, don't care about movement, just not where I'm at.

Current pricing is really pushing the limits of what I might even consider spending on any sub-style watch. 

But that's just me. I'm sure, with the right "upgrades," refinements, and improvements, Doc could sell a more expensive watch, just like Zelos manages to do.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

catsteeth said:


> I read it many years ago. Firstly because I like intelligent hard sci-fi - I M Banks, A Reynold, etc. Secondly because T Leary read it, and I was very into that many years ago. Along with Jefferson Airplane, 13th Floor Elevators, The Seeds, etc
> 
> It's nice bring right


I love Ian M. Banks and have read all his scifi books, my favourites are "Player of Games" and "Use of Weapons". Any other authors along similar lines you would recommend?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> I love Ian M. Banks and have read all his scifi books, my favourites are "Player of Games" and "Use of Weapons". Any other authors along similar lines you would recommend?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


_Off topic again. Sorry to Doc and regulars._

I've read all of them too, most twice. Which I rarely do 
I'm in to Hard Sci-fi. For the equal of Banks, better even - Try Alistair Reynolds. The "Revelation Space" Trilogy. Or "House of Suns". Or "Pushing Ice". Or "Revenger" - revenger is slightly different but still brilliant. Or any of his, all brilliant.
Also excellent - Richard Morgan - Try "Altered Carbon". Or "Black Man" (black as in highly trained).

For really good rumbunctious, fast paced well plotted, highly readable Sci-Fi.
PF Hamilton - start with "Commonwealth" duology. Or "Nightsdawn" Trilogy. Or "Void" trilogy.
Or for another - SA Corey. Try "Leviathan Wakes" is first in the series.

Left field choice - Greg Egan. Manages to turn quantum physics, and Philosophy of Maths into Sci-Fi. Hard but really good. Any of his.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15482959


I really like these Cali dial NTH's. Although I think the blue is probs my favourite. Still that white is a gorgeous watch.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> I really like these Cali dial NTH's. Although I think the blue is probs my favourite. Still that white is a gorgeous watch.


I like the Azzurro for sure, but I like the Sauro and Ghost more. But as soon as I learned I could buy bezel inserts, I threw an Azzurro insert on to give the blue hands some company. Now its perfect in my eyes, as well as being a one off as far as I know.

The Sauro also taught me that I like and can pull off a white dial watch. Which is why I have the money set aside for a white dialed Swiftsure.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As general response to some of the recent posts here...

RE - business strategy...

I've always felt that one of the ways in which I differed from other microbrand owners is that I wasn't already a long-time watch enthusiast when I decided to start my business. I approached the business with a mix of cold / clinical calculations and sincere "passion" for making a good product that people would enjoy.

I know enough about how some other microbrands run to know better than to model my business after what my competitors are doing, when many are doing poorly. My goal isn't for my brand to be more popular among WIS by way of running my business worse, which is what a lot of people seem to want from me. My goal is to grow my business in a smart, sustainable way.

So far, that's what I've been doing.

I'm not pro-Seiko or anti-Seiko, or pro- / anti- what any brand is doing. I'm pro what works because it makes sense for the business.

RE - making an explorer / field watch...

We've looked at it, and done some design drafts back in 2016-2017. I just didn't get excited enough about the idea, so we shifted focus to the v.1 DevilRay, and I haven't thought much about it since.

Now that Rusty's doing the explorer thing with the first Atticus release, I see even less reason for NTH to do it, but, if we did, I'd make sure it wasn't too much like what Atticus is doing.

What I have in mind to make, maybe, is something completely different.

RE - making a more expensive NTH by adding a Swiss movement...

The only Swiss movement that remotely interest me right now is the Soprod M100, and only because it was designed by Seiko. I have zero confidence in Selitta and most other manufacturers of lower-priced Swiss movements.

The problem there is that after I and my OEM made multiple attempts to contact Soprod, they are as yet completely unresponsive. It's hard to make a watch with a particular movement when the movement manufacturer seems to always be closed. Must be nice.

Hypothetically, just adding that movement, and changing nothing else puts the watch over $1,000 retail, probably closer to $1200.

The challenge is that "changing nothing else" part. While I've gotten enough positive feedback to believe that the quality of our components and fit-and-finish is good enough to compete in that range, I know many would disagree. I'm not here to argue about it. There's a big gap between what WIS think and what people buy.

Nonetheless, that knowledge, and my perception of the associated risk, would drive me to start looking at adding more expensive components, at a minimum, driving up the price some more. Knowing people would balk if the watch didn't say "Swiss Made" on it, we'd likely do what was necessary to have "Swiss Made" put on it, which would drive the price up even further. We could be looking at a $2,000 watch very soon, when we start adding up all the costs.

That's not just a "halo" model for NTH. It's a completely different business I'd be in. I've thought about doing something like that, but not under the NTH banner. If I produced a watch like that, it'd be under a different / new brand.

RE - Robert Heinlein's "sci-fi"...

I've read a fair bit of his work. It was always more interesting to me as political philosophy than science fiction, I suppose because the philosophical views were often stronger than the narrative. Much of what he wrote was more social commentary than entertainment.

Heinlein's self-description was that he was always a "radical libertarian", but the truth is he wasn't. His political views changed, and ranged all over, over the course of his career, varying from radical to liberal to libertarian to conservative to reactionary. Depending on where you are on that spectrum and which of his works you're reading, you might find one of his stories amazingly prescient or profoundly naive.

It's hard to know what to make of someone who espoused individualism and self-determination somehow also believing in a unified world government. He saw a world government as the only way to avoid nuclear annihilation, yet supported continued US nuclear weapons-testing, and condemned "Communist-line goals concealed in idealistic-sounding nonsense".

While he was way ahead of his time on the issue of racial equality, his views on sexual liberation were pretty extreme, given his penchant for making readers question society's views on incest and sexualizing children.

As a man, and a writer, he was full of contradictions.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Gents,

I haven't been around in months, and there are reasons for that. It's been a pretty rough summer for my family. But also, I haven't been on this forum in months because I think Doc's gone and done it. I think my AVG has scratched the itch for good. I think I'm done buying watches.

I've been wearing this thing almost non-stop since I got it. I've gone back to the watch box several times and cycled through some of my other watches when the mood struck me. As soon as I put each of them on, I remembered why I like them. But in every case, they made it less than 24 hours before the AVG was back on my wrist.

The bad news (for Chris) is that I'm out of the watch market. The good news (for Chris) is that it was one of his watches that finally did it.










Sorry for the crappy photos. It seems my phone came with a default "crappy photo" setting that I can't seem to change. I'll check back in from time to time. And who knows, maybe my mood will change. But at the moment, I feel like I'm about done here. I've found the right watch. Hope everyone here is doing well, and that all of our 2021's are better than our 2020's.

Regards,
Chuck


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> As general response to some of the recent posts here...
> 
> RE - business strategy...
> 
> ...


Very interesting. You'd only have the one Swiss movement. It would require a general upgrade of all parts. Then moving manufacturing to Switzerland. Yes I can see that's a different business.
I think that's actually rather admirable. Instead of shoe-horning any old Swiss movement in, writing Swiss Mvmt on the dial, and charging $100 more. Therefore having an inferior product, and not being happy about it. Like many affordable brands do.
(I do what I do, because I like to sleep soundly at night - helps you do the right thing, if you follow me).

Yes, when I look at the Atticus watches, it does make me think of NTH. I hope that doesn't bother you.

Fascinating about "Stranger...." I read it when I was 18, I was very wide-eyed and innocent, at least more so than I am now I hope.
I definitely read it for the social commentary. To be honest, as SciFi it was dated even then.
Rather horrifying that second last paragraph, I didn't know. But I was hoovering up stuff like Wilhelm Riech, and Jung anyway. Discernment comes with age, it's supposed to anyway.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> _Off topic again. Sorry to Doc and regulars._
> 
> I've read all of them too, most twice. Which I rarely do
> I'm in to Hard Sci-fi. For the equal of Banks, better even - Try Alistair Reynolds. The "Revelation Space" Trilogy. Or "House of Suns". Or "Pushing Ice". Or "Revenger" - revenger is slightly different but still brilliant. Or any of his, all brilliant.
> ...


Ok, let's all calm down. The god of digression is here, and not a second too late.

Ahem.

Iain Banks is the father of the new age of sci-fi. All hail. Nowt, and I mean nowt tops Iain Banks. Culture... post-abundance society. Amazing.

Alaistair Reynolds has his moments, especially his general gothic air. Great stuff.

Richard Morgan is fun, but can't fill the shoes of the above. Bit I do enjoy.

Peter Hamilton, sheesh. Entertaining, but must look over his shoulder in case he gets found out by the real sci-fi authors.

We're missing another elder: Stephen Baxter. Xeelee, anyone?

Ric, innit.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ric Capucho said:


> Ok, let's all calm down. The god of digression is here, and not a second too late.
> 
> Ahem.
> 
> ...


_I'm sorry, I'm trying not making a habit of red herrings and irrelevant posts_.

To keep this civil. Respectfully, I'm going to somewhat disagree, and somewhat agree.

Reynolds is easily as good as Banks in SciFi.
Banks is a better writer and broader. I've read all of I Banks and I M Banks, both equally good. Astonishing breadth.

Sci Fi R Morgan. Okay a little patchy, but genuine skill there. Fantasy R Morgan, okay, not so good.

You've said exactly what I said about PF Hamilton.

I struggle with S Baxter. He's got amazing ideas and a brilliant SciFi mind. He's just not a good literary writer. I so want to read him, but his writing stopped me from finishing Xeelee. Though I have managed a couple of others.

I love SciFi. But most of us fans would agree a lot of it's dross. SciFi makes up a small proportion of what I tend to read.

These are all opinions, on a matter of taste. I'm not setting up a literary Rorke's Drift, preparing to fight to the last man protecting opinions I'm not particularly attached too


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Gents,
> 
> I haven't been around in months, and there are reasons for that. It's been a pretty rough summer for my family. But also, I haven't been on this forum in months because I think Doc's gone and done it. I think my AVG has scratched the itch for good. I think I'm done buying watches.
> 
> ...


Turn off the auto-flash and use natural lighting. That's half the battle right there.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My exposure to IMBanks comes from the (old) background bookcase of JOMW. And as interested as I might be in reading them, what caught my eye is the difference between books printed on acid-free paper, vs. groundwood.

Every now and then, I start jonesing for an epic space opera, and The Expanse certainly scratched that itch.

I read Heinlein young, and while more accessible than some, the contrast between his earlier works to later ones was stark, and ultimately, I moved on. I did re-read Stranger as an adult, and found that actually, the political philosophy distracted from the story to the point that I never finished it.

Best thing I can say about Heinlein is that he was a path to other, better authors - Harlan Ellison, Philip K Dick, Jorge Luis Borges, Chuck Palahniuk, Jonathan Lethem, Haruki Murakami, and other contemporary authors which might be considered more Speculative Fiction than Sci Fi.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So, as long as we're off on a sci-fi as veiled social commentary tangent...

Allow me once again to recommend the works of one of our fellow watch geeks, and a semi-regular in these parts, Dominic Adler (who goes by a different forum user name, and prefers to maintain his anonymity).

I've previously recommended his Cal Winter trilogy, action-packed thrillers centering around a disgraced mercenary's quest for redemption. His two more recent books are (hopefully) both the start of two new and separate series, and both are good sci-fi, of different sorts. The social commentary is pretty light, more open-ended questions than position statements.

"Dark as Angels" is a tale of a dystopian, semi-post-apocalyptic future, in which humans are enhanced through science, leading to wars of greater destruction, more brutality, and more social divisions, with more violent civil unrest. 

The narrative centers around a mercenary, Rufus Hooker, who is forced to undertake a suicide mission. He must criss-cross war-torn London to locate and rescue the kidnapped daughter of a powerful politician being blackmailed ahead of important negotiations. It's somewhat reminiscent of Snake Pliskin in "Escape from New York" - he's a grizzled, disillusioned veteran, on a high-stakes mission with a looming deadline, and he's mostly on his own, with danger all around. 

Bonus content - Adler included a character inspired by yours truly, a "cowboy" air cavalry officer with the last name Vail.

The only social commentary I found in it is the idea that the potential to augment humans through science isn't really "fiction". Like many new frontiers of science, it will be pioneered by governments looking to build better soldiers, and the rich, who'd be seeking more power and wealth, with far-reaching consequences for all, especially those of us caught in the cross-fire.

His latest book, "Timberwolf", is a little more bat$hlt-crazy. It takes place in a completely different world, which only vaguely resembles ours. There are echoes of N4zi Germany and Communist Russia during WWII - a seemingly unending, expansive war fought by totalitarian regimes. But in this world, conventional arms are augmented with weapons of sorcery, shape-shifting warlocks, vampires, demigods, and mind-control.

The narrative centers around a hapless every-man type of character, who finds himself thrust into the role of reluctant soldier/spy, who must navigate a minefield of treacherous characters with competing agendas, in order to complete his mission, and hopefully survive to tell the tale.

If there's any social commentary in there, I'll be damned if I know what it is, unless it's just "war and politics suck".


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Timberwolf was indeed a fun read, with a good dose of humor.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> My exposure to IMBanks comes from the (old) background bookcase of JOMW. And as interested as I might be in reading them, what caught my eye is the difference between books printed on acid-free paper, vs. groundwood.
> 
> Every now and then, I start jonesing for an epic space opera, and The Expanse certainly scratched that itch.
> 
> ...


_Another swerve. Indirect horological content only in this post._

Apologies, unsolicited post. As a SciFi fan too, I enjoyed your post and wanted to respond.

I loved a those old authors too. Dick, Borges, Len, Asimov. AE Van Vogt anybody?

If you liked SA Corey's Expanse a lot. Then _PF Hamilton_ does _very_ _similar_ enormous, vived, brilliantly plotted, easy reading, gripping space opera.
Any of "Commonwealth Saga", "Void Trilogy", "Fallen Dragon" are in the same universe.
Another couple of cool authors: Jon Courtenay Grimwood. Adrian Tchaikovski.

I love H Murakami. My first was "Hardboiled Wonderland and the End of the World". Such a cool title. I quickly devoured the rest.

If you like H Murakami I cannot recommend _David Mitchell_ highly enough. Brilliant SciFi ideas man, and so well-written they're impossible to put down. 
His best scifi are "Cloud Atlas", (they made a film, but I've no idea about that). Also "Bone Clocks" followed by "Slade House", as a pair. He definitely fits your description of speculative fiction with Murakami.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

catsteeth said:


> If you liked SA Corey's Expanse a lot. Then _PF Hamilton_ does _very_ _similar_ enormous, vived, brilliantly plotted, easy reading, gripping space opera.
> Any of "Commonwealth Saga", "Void Trilogy", "Fallen Dragon" are in the same universe.
> Another couple of cool authors: Jon Courtenay Grimwood. Adrian Tchaikovski.
> 
> ...


Sweet, thanks for all this. I now officially have way too much to read...

I, too, started with Hardboiled Wonderland, and it sucked me right in. I tend to find an author I like and then read everything I can find. H Murakami was one of them.

Not sure if you can stand fantasy, but one fantastic author I would highly recommend is John Crowley, and the novel _Little, Big_. There's a collection out now of his early novels, worth finding, and others I haven't read yet. Currently in the middle of _Ka_.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Sweet, thanks for all this. I now officially have way too much to read...
> 
> I, too, started with Hardboiled Wonderland, and it sucked me right in. I tend to find an author I like and then read everything I can find. H Murakami was one of them.
> 
> Not sure if you can stand fantasy, but one fantastic author I would highly recommend is John Crowley, and the novel _Little, Big_. There's a collection out now of his early novels, worth finding, and others I haven't read yet. Currently in the middle of _Ka_.


_"I tend to find an author I like and then read everything I can find". _Haha, snap, same here. It's why I keep saying I've read all of the books by the authors I'm mentioning.

Fantasy got me into reading books when I was a child. Tolkien .. !!
I read and reread "The Belgariad" series by David Eddings, over and over age 12-14. Pure escapist fantasy, a bit childish now. But then again, not long ago I read the teenage fantasy "His Dark Materials" by P. Pullman, and loved it.
Unfortunately I find fantasy's dross to quality ratio quite poor. But when I do find good fantasy, I _love_ it.

I like a bit of magical realism. I don't know what you'd call Susanne Clarke's "Johnathan Strange & Mr Norrell", but it's brilliant.
Haven't tried J Crowley, but I'm always after recommendations, so I'll have a look for it. Thank you. Always very happy to listen to a recommendation


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Watch intermission: I've recently had two swiss movements go stupid on me. Both Sellita, and it's made me re-think what I really want to own. None of my Miyotas have ever had an issue...
One of my Omegas is on the sales block, as the predicted cost of a thorough service is, wait for it, $650 USD. I could just buy a new sub...

Went back to work today, and wore my Vanguard. 

Now back to the sci-fi. 

PS: this thread is it's own world, if you haven't noticed...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Another SF recommendation: "The Three-Body Problem" (and its two sequels) by Chinese author Cixin Liu.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Watch intermission: I've recently had two swiss movements go stupid on me. Both Sellita, and it's made me re-think what I really want to own. None of my Miyotas have ever had an issue...
> One of my Omegas is on the sales block, as the predicted cost of a thorough service is, wait for it, $650 USD. I could just buy a new sub...
> 
> Went back to work today, and wore my Vanguard.
> ...


Ive rebuilt many Sellita movements. They arent perfect clones of their eta predecessors.

In fact by tiny design differences a lot of the parts are not interchangeable. Ive also found the keyless works of the Sellitas to be inferior in quality as softer metal parts are used. On most all of my watches with elabore grade Sellita movements i have replaced the keyless train with eta parts. On standard grade i have just swapped over to an oem eta. The elabore grade tends to have better quality parts so i only swap out the weakest link which is the keyless. So far now ive not had any further problems with my Sellita movement watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Ive rebuilt many Sellita movements. They arent perfect clones of their eta predecessors.
> 
> In fact by tiny design differences a lot of the parts are not interchangeable. Ive also found the keyless works of the Sellitas to be inferior in quality as softer metal parts are used. On most all of my watches with elabore grade Sellita movements i have replaced the keyless train with eta parts. On standard grade i have just swapped over to an oem eta. The elabore grade tends to have better quality parts so i only swap out the weakest link which is the keyless. So far now ive not had any further problems with my Sellita movement watches.


This.

I don't want to seem like I'm always bashing Selitta, but I've heard similar criticisms from watchmakers. They've told me the parts aren't 1:1 interchangeable, and the Selitta parts often seem to fail at a higher rate, are made of softer metals, aren't as well-finished, etc. I've been told the support from Selitta is often lacking.

It's not just Selitta. When we used the STP1-11 in the v.1 Tropics and v.1 DevilRay, we had a number of snapped crown stems. Some of them snapped due to being cut a wee bit too long, and as a result they were bending when pushed in and screwed down.

But some snapped for other reasons, which we frequently struggled to identify. I suspected there was too much resistance from within the movement (the keyless works, maybe), but Dan didn't think so. He figured out that some snapped due to the slightest mis-alignments inside the case, where the case depth and/or movement spacer thickness was off by just a fraction of a millimetre.

Whenever we replaced a snapped stem, we also used an ETA part. Besides the fact that they're easier to source from a US supplier, we found the ETA stems were universally stronger and better-finished than the STP part.

Likewise, the parts in the STP aren't 1:1 interchangeable with the ETA, though even where the parts are slightly different, sometimes the STP part can be replaced with an ETA part.

We also found hit-or-miss quality. Most units were pretty flawless, but ~10% had issues, some of which were surprising.

I had really high hopes for STP, and still hope they can get their $hlt together. Likewise, I hope Ronda will eventually be able to produce their movement in higher volume, but just as importantly, make them reliable. Last I heard, they were talking about annual production of 5,000-10,000 units, and the industry rumor mill suggested they were "unstable".

Aside from the M100, which is meant to compete with the 2892, Soprod has at least one, maybe two movements which are at least dimensional (or damned near dimensional) clones of the 2824-2. They've had the M800 for a while, and earlier this year, they introduced the "Newton" movement, which appears to be completely different. I haven't heard of anyone using either movement yet, so I haven't heard anything about their reliability. I would assume the production volume is still pretty low.

My highest hopes are still for Seiko to offer the market a movement to compete head-to-head with the Miyota 9 series - something high-beat, thin, accurate, reliable, and priced competitively.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Ive rebuilt many Sellita movements. They arent perfect clones of their eta predecessors.
> 
> In fact by tiny design differences a lot of the parts are not interchangeable. Ive also found the keyless works of the Sellitas to be inferior in quality as softer metal parts are used. On most all of my watches with elabore grade Sellita movements i have replaced the keyless train with eta parts. On standard grade i have just swapped over to an oem eta. The elabore grade tends to have better quality parts so i only swap out the weakest link which is the keyless. So far now ive not had any further problems with my Sellita movement watches.


The saddest aspect of this for me, is that in my previous watch buying binges, I usually wasn't given a choice. The specs usually said something like "it will come with an ETA or equivalent". Worst part is that I purchased a Glycine Airman a year or so ago for a spectacular price, and it will probably cost me more to fix than it cost to purchase, IF I can find someone to attempt it. But I love the watch, so I'm going to give it a go.

Most of the big repair places in the US get scathing on-line reviews. OR they're REALLY expensive (reference Omega service cost above). If I can't find anyone nearby @Rhorya , would you be willing to take a stab? Right now, it's just running really slow, in the -300 sec/day range, and it's not magnetized.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Of all the watches I've owned, the only two movements to have failed on me were Selitta SW200. 

New Zelos Mako v2, it lost winding or PR, which appears to be a not uncommon complaint. Elshan was quick to warranty, with a replacement watch. I flipped it pretty quick, after, and only even considered a v3 because they are now using the Miyota 9015... in a thinner case (less stated WR, 300m instead of v1/2 500m), too.

Archimede Outdoor Protect 39 just decided to stop working. Was ticking along, adjusted date and time, and done, not working. Just over a year old, I was not the original owner, but kudos to WatchMann for honoring the warranty, when they could easily have claimed abuse/accident on my end.

The fact that both times, warranty servicers provided coverage without push-back? Leads me to believe that failure in these movements is never unexpected. 

I'm more than willing to give up prestige, "Swiss-ness," and even performance characteristics like bi-directional winding and higher beat rates/PR, for durability and cheap replacement v. high service fees. 

I'd sooner expect China to up their quality game on established movements like the ST2130 or PT5000, than for some affordable revolution among Swiss manufacturers.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Of course, having just bashed Selitta, the Archimede isn't going anywhere, and I recently picked up a Glycine Combat 6 36mm with SW200 movement that will be sticking around, probably long-term.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> The saddest aspect of this for me, is that in my previous watch buying binges, I usually wasn't given a choice. The specs usually said something like "it will come with an ETA or equivalent". Worst part is that I purchased a Glycine Airman a year or so ago for a spectacular price, and it will probably cost me more to fix than it cost to purchase, IF I can find someone to attempt it. But I love the watch, so I'm going to give it a go.
> 
> Most of the big repair places in the US get scathing on-line reviews. OR they're REALLY expensive (reference Omega service cost above). If I can't find anyone nearby @Rhorya , would you be willing to take a stab? Right now, it's just running really slow, in the -300 sec/day range, and it's not magnetized.


Well my friend, at the moment im on a long term deployment in the desert of Qatar. Any good watchmaker could swap an eta 2824 for the sellita in minutes. You can get brand new eta movements on the bay for around $130. You could hit up Chris at WilsonWatchWorks too. He'd likely do it for a small charge and water test your watch too.

Best of luck! If you dont mind waiting i may be home after Christmas.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Well my friend, at the moment im on a long term deployment in the desert of Qatar. Any good watchmaker could swap an eta 2824 for the sellita in minutes. You can get brand new eta movements on the bay for around $130. You could hit up Chris at WilsonWatchWorks too. He'd likely do it for a small charge and water test your watch too.
> 
> Best of luck! If you dont mind waiting i may be home after Christmas.


You have my sympathies. I spent a little time over there, but most of it was looking down from a "difficult to hit" piece of supersonic titanium. 
I dropped the Glycine off today with a local guy and described all of the above. We'll see how it goes. If it's not fixed by January, you're on deck!

Stay safe and stay in touch.

dj


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

2K1's are in...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

They look good. Case sides turned out really nice and fancy.
Those endlinks are excellent, visually. 

Now you could/should make promotional images of those watches, with all these little design things highlighted (kinda like what Lorier does in their design briefs). Since you took time/effort on it, turn all that into a selling point.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Congrats Doc, they are sharp.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Ok. That DLC Thresher with date is looking so fine! Now i need to make her mine. So fine! So fine!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Ok. That DLC Thresher with date is looking so fine! Now i need to make her mine. So fine! So fine!


I was about to ask if you can pull off a 44, because she's a big, black, hunka hunka burning love, but then I remembered you own that other fat bottomed girl, the Lew & Huey Spectre.

Goddam I love semi-offensive musical references from the 70's...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

captainmorbid said:


> Congrats Doc, *the center of the endlinks *are sharp.
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


My thought exactly ?


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## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

Congrats on the 2k1s, looking real sharp. Couple pics of the commando. Waiting for some Haveston straps to come in, but I've really been enjoying this on the brown leather I have. It's quickly turned into my every day piece.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> I was about to ask if you can pull off a 44, because she's a big, black, hunka hunka burning love, but then I remembered you own that other fat bottomed girl, the Lew & Huey Spectre.
> 
> Goddam I love semi-offensive musical references from the 70's...
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Imma gonna "Jump" all over it.

RIP EVH


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Those Swiftsures look really, really good. Well done!

I think one of these might be my first NTH (though the blue Azores is also calling to me...).



Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Well, Johns email blast came through. I don't know how full the list for the white, no date Swiftsure is, but if it is full up, I'm one of the guys who got in early enough for the first batch of deliveries.

That invoice will be paid as soon as it comes in. Cannot wait to post some pics.


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## jmariorebelo (Jan 14, 2019)

theswervyn said:


> Congrats on the 2k1s, looking real sharp. Couple pics of the commando. Waiting for some Haveston straps to come in, but I've really been enjoying this on the brown leather I have. It's quickly turned into my every day piece.
> View attachment 15488271
> 
> View attachment 15488272


Great photos, love the grain.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

well done Doc, especially bezel and endlinks turned out great!

I rarely check here nowadays. Have the Näcken usually on my wrist though


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

I am on the waiting list for a Polar White Barracuda here in Europe, and while waiting for it to come available I am just after agreeing a deal on a used Barracuda Vintage Black. So now I will likely be the owner of two NTHs.

I just need to figure out how to make some space in my watch box, and what needs to go to make space!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Scorpéne Commando


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

It's official. 

Swiftsure White, no date, bought and paid for. Even sprung for two day shipping. 

So Doc, dont rush that QC... but let's get those puppies shipped to retailers most ricky tick, yeah? I'm dying to strap this thing on.


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> It's official.
> 
> Swiftsure White, no date, bought and paid for. Even sprung for two day shipping.
> 
> So Doc, dont rush that QC... but let's get those puppies shipped to retailers most ricky tick, yeah? I'm dying to strap this thing on.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

I like the symmetry of how the bezel profile tapers/bevels to semi-pointy, to go with how the crown guards profile tapers/bevels to semi-pointy. I hadn't gleaned those features from renders. Much more apparent IRL metal.
None of the colorways grab me too much though, so still on the fence about whether to buy.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

How about some pics or footage up against a SUB for direct comparison?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> How about some pics or footage up against a SUB for direct comparison?


They'll have to wait. Dan's shop is 45 minutes away.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I went on a GMT buying spree a few years back, with the pinnacle piece being the 25th Anniversary Omega GMT. Very nice watch, but I didn't wear it much, as I worried about dinging it. So, I took a long look at what I'd really like to wear on trips. This won:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a heads-up -

We'll be bringing back the Santa Cruz, Scorpène Blue, Barracuda Brown, and Näcken Renegade in the final Subs production of 2020, expected near the end of the year, or very early next.

I'm not sure when we'll make more of the 40mm Subs after that. But, my guess is it won't be before May-June next year, at the earliest.

The new Antilles and Azores will be coming early next year, I think around March-April. Expect pricing to be around $725, including steel bracelet and tropic-style rubber strap.

There's ONE Amphion Vintage Gilt left in the world (a with-date) - Amphion Vintage Gilt Date

There's ONE Odin Black left in the world (a no-date) - NTH Odin Black No Date

There's ONE Skipjack no-date left in the world - NTH Skipjack - No Date

There's ONE Näcken Vintage Black no-date left in the world - Sub - Nacken Vintage Black | NTH Watches Hong Kong

There's ONE Näcken Vintage Black with-date left in the world - NTH Nacken Vintage

On average, there are fewer than 5 pieces of each Subs version left available, worldwide.

We won't be making more of any of the in-stock versions any time soon, if ever, and prices on new models will be going up starting later this month. They'll all be $700 on oyster bracelet, or $725 on BOR, and $750 for DLC versions.

If you're interested in one of the v.2 DevilRays - we've sold through >65% of what we made, and stock on the blue dials is VERY low, especially the no-date. Most of the blue dials are at Serious Watches - NTH.

We probably won't be making more DevilRays until late next year, or early the following year.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

New bezel insert...









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

L&H today.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

bolts40 said:


> New bezel insert...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That date though?


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Miyota 9015 date change...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> You could hit up Chris at WilsonWatchWorks too. He'd likely do it for a small charge and water test your watch too.
> 
> Best of luck! If you dont mind waiting i may be home after Christmas.


I had a great discussion with Chris from Wilson Watch Works. He is my new go to guy! However, the local guy seems to have the Glycine with the Sellita all sorted out. I am out west at the moment, so actual results will be pending upon my return back east. But I'm very optimistic. Thanks again for the help. And occasionally post a picture of a watch in Qatar.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> I had a great discussion with Chris from Wilson Watch Works. He is my new go to guy! However, the local guy seems to have the Glycine with the Sellita all sorted out. I am out west at the moment, so actual results will be pending upon my return back east. But I'm very optimistic. Thanks again for the help. And occasionally post a picture of a watch in Qatar.












Happy to oblige. It's obvious which one is me. Im wearing a watch!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Happy to oblige. It's obvious which one is me. Im wearing a watch!


Uncle Jesse?

Looks like them Duke boys have gotten themselves into a jam again...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> We'll be bringing back the Santa Cruz, Scorpène Blue, Barracuda Brown, and Näcken Renegade in the final Subs production of 2020, expected near the end of the year, or very early next.
> 
> I'm not sure when we'll make more of the 40mm Subs after that. But, my guess is it won't be before May-June next year, at the earliest.
> 
> *We won't be making more of any of the in-stock versions any time soon, if ever*, and prices on new models will be going up...


I really like my Scorpene. Enough to have owned 2. Including the one with the swapped-out bezel insert, which I just posted here yesterday.

The Socrpene vintage white with lume dial is among the upcoming new releases, and here, Doc's saying the blue one will be back next year. But note - no mention of a black-dial Scorpene release.

Doc posted, I think on FB, that there are only 2 Scorpene Nomad with date remaining. I scarfed one up quick, on release, thinking they would sell out quick. They didn't, which means it will not be a priority to make more...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I really like my Scorpene. Enough to have owned 2. Including the one with the swapped-out bezel insert, which I just posted here yesterday.
> 
> The Socrpene vintage white with lume dial is among the upcoming new releases, and here, Doc's saying the blue one will be back next year. But note - no mention of a black-dial Scorpene release.
> 
> Doc posted, I think on FB, that there are only 2 Scorpene Nomad with date remaining. I scarfed one up quick, on release, thinking they would sell out quick. They didn't, which means it will not be a priority to make more...


We made 50 of the Nomad version, 25 date/25 no-date. I figured we'd make one with the 12-hour bezel, because, why not? We had the 50 dials available, and we'd sold out of the regular version a few months earlier. People seem to like 12 hour bezels, so we switched it up a little with the Nomad.

But, I'm not sure they really do. It seems like the standard 60-minute bezels are more popular.

I'm sure we'll bring back the regular version with the black dial eventually. Apparently they're super-hot in South Korea. They like all the versions of the Scorpène, but especially the original black dial.

I think going forward, we'll be doing smaller releases, more frequently, with fewer versions, and a mix of the best-sellers plus the ones that may not be quite as popular, but haven't been available for a while, or some new versions. We'll keep the production numbers low for everything, no more than 25 pieces per version per release.

The Scorpène Blue hasn't been produced since November 2018. The Santa Cruz hasn't been produced since May 2019. Same with the original Scorpène, and the Renegade. The Barracuda Brown was last seen in July 2019. They've all been sold out for at least 6, if not 9 months, so I figured we'd bring a limited number back late this year.

I'm thinking we'll make the original Scorpène sometime next year, and probably include some DLC pieces. My hunch is we'll make more of the Polar next year, too. Other than those, and the core group of Nackens and Barracudas, I'm thinking we'll retire most of the previous designs, and focus on some new ones.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

My new toy. What's the NTH connection, you may wonder? I learned about Direnzo from reading compliments about the brand that Doc posted. Thanks Doc. Love it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> View attachment 15493441
> 
> My new toy. What's the NTH connection, you may wonder? I learned about Direnzo from reading compliments about the brand that Doc posted. Thanks Doc. Love it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought you were going to say that's an NTH tropic rubber strap.

Sergio is an outstanding designer, and I was blown away by both the DRZ_02 and the DRZ_03. I was honored that he trusted me enough to give me a sneak preview, and ask my opinion about them, before revealing them to the public.


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## Robjamderout (Oct 10, 2020)

Hello there. Really interested in the blue thresher, and just about to pre order with Serious Watches, here in Europe. 
Quick question after watching the 2k1 sneak preview 10 times over. 
Is the clasp on the bracelet a machined piece, like the renders, or a more basic pressed steel folder?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Robjamderout said:


> Hello there. Really interested in the blue thresher, and just about to pre order with Serious Watches, here in Europe.
> Quick question after watching the 2k1 sneak preview 10 times over.
> Is the clasp on the bracelet a machined piece, like the renders, or a more basic pressed steel folder?


EDIT/PS - Welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum, and the madness that is this thread. I'd by lying if I said I didn't love seeing someone's first forum post being made here. Feel free to hang around and partake in the fun.

It's exactly the same clasp on the 40mm Subs.

I'm sorry if I seem reticent to label it with commonly used terms, like "milled clasp" vs "stamped". The truth is I'm afraid many use those terms incorrectly, or I'm not certain what they mean.

If it helps, you can see a better pic of the clasp here - 18mm Folding Diver's Clasp with 6 micro-adjustment holes


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Robjamderout said:


> Hello there. Really interested in the blue thresher, and just about to pre order with Serious Watches, here in Europe.
> Quick question after watching the 2k1 sneak preview 10 times over.
> Is the clasp on the bracelet a machined piece, like the renders, or a more basic pressed steel folder?


Its not pressed in the definition you're going for my man. Its a very nice clasp.

Also, as Doc said, welcome. My first ever post was in the previous NTH thread.

Heres some quick, dirty and unprofessional pics as well as a glamour shot of my Azzuauro(Sauro with an Azzurro bezel insert).


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Just watched part of a recent Bruce Williams video on a Zelos. Mentioned thinking that Zelos was the first with lumed crown. NTH gets no respect, I tell you. No respect at all.


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## Robjamderout (Oct 10, 2020)

docvail said:


> EDIT/PS - Welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum, and the madness that is this thread. I'd by lying if I said I didn't love seeing someone's first forum post being made here. Feel free to hang around and partake in the fun.
> 
> It's exactly the same clasp on the 40mm Subs.
> 
> ...


Many thank for confirming that.
I'm glad to say that that will be the next nail in my credit card coffin.
I just need to remember to get it mailed to my work address (Mrs doesn't share my compulsion for watches).
Cheers.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> Just watched part of a recent Bruce Williams video on a Zelos. Mentioned thinking that Zelos was the first with lumed crown. NTH gets no respect, I tell you. No respect at all.


I would doubt it's respect more likely they were just ignorant to the fact vail did it first.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> How about some pics or footage up against a SUB for direct comparison?


2K1 vs v.1 40mm Sub, courtesy of Dan.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> 2K1 vs v.1 40mm Sub, courtesy of Dan.
> 
> View attachment 15494631
> View attachment 15494633
> View attachment 15494634


The 3-6-9 dial looks very nice the bezel looks considerably different.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Its worn everything from metal, nylon, rubber, cordura and canvas. But never leather. Until now. 









I like it. I think it'll look just as good, if not better on the Tikcuda.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

JLS36 said:


> I would doubt it's respect more likely they were just ignorant to the fact vail did it first.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Ignorance is a poor excuse.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Yup. It works very nicely on the Tikcuda as well.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

My one and only... spring has sprung!
























Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Right on time, Soprod finally responded to me, after months of silence, right after I said they never responded to me.

So...yeah, swapping the Soprod M100 in place of the 9015 adds about $400 to the retail price, changing nothing else.

I'm not sure the world is ready enough for an $1100 NTH for me to make one in large numbers. 


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Right on time, Soprod finally responded to me, after months of silence, right after I said they never responded to me.
> 
> So...yeah, swapping the Soprod M100 in place of the 9015 adds about $400 to the retail price, changing nothing else.
> 
> ...


PS - Aragon is apparently planning to release a model using the M100 and the C125 (the GMT version) in June of next year.

Knowing how insanely cheap Aragons tend to be, my guess is that they'll sell for about $400.

They'll also probably be enormous, but we'll see...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## jmariorebelo (Jan 14, 2019)

docvail said:


> Right on time, Soprod finally responded to me, after months of silence, right after I said they never responded to me.
> 
> So...yeah, swapping the Soprod M100 in place of the 9015 adds about $400 to the retail price, changing nothing else.
> 
> ...


Knowing how many people eat the Swiss made/Swiss movement bs, maybe they'd eat the price too...

So that's about $300 for the M100?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jmariorebelo said:


> Knowing how many people eat the Swiss made/Swiss movement bs, maybe they'd eat the price too...
> 
> So that's about $300 for the M100?


I don't think it's that simple. For all the people who complain that the current clasp isn't an expansion clasp, or that a micro shouldn't be charging so much, or about anything else people currently complain about with the watches we make vs the price we charge, those complaints would likely only become more numerous at that price, if nothing else changed.

Like I said before, I don't think just swapping in the Soprod movement is going to suffice. Once you get to that price range, the story has to be more tailored to justify the price. Even if the movement is a good Swiss unit, people are going to balk at "micro" and "all the other parts are made and the assembly is done in China", etc. No matter how good the product currently is, people are going to nitpick it more at that price.

The movement doesn't interest me enough if all we're doing is swapping it out for the 9015. I was interested in using it for a completely different project - American-made case, at a minimum, if not all the steel parts made here, and final assembly being done here. My best guess is we'd be talking about a $3k-$4k watch by that point.

I actually expected the M100 to be more than what Soprod quoted me for a bulk purchase price. I shouldn't have said anything which could be misconstrued as suggesting I was seriously considering making an NTH with the Soprod. I wasn't. That was never a consideration, at least not at this time.

I'm happy selling $500-$800 watches for the time being. I'll stay in this lane until I need to make a change.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I was interested in using it for a completely different project - American-made case, at a minimum, if not all the steel parts made here, and final assembly being done here. My best guess is we'd be talking about a $3k-$4k watch by that point.


Now there's a pretty sweet idea.

Would I buy one? Honestly I can't answer that, seeing as I cant imagine what it'd look like, what size it'd be, as well as lots of other variables.

Would I love to see one? Bet your a$$ I would.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Now there's a pretty sweet idea.
> 
> Would I buy one? Honestly I can't answer that, seeing as I cant imagine what it'd look like, what size it'd be, as well as lots of other variables.
> 
> Would I love to see one? Bet your a$$ I would.


I still want one with a 7S36...

...stupid pandemic ate my money. 

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Now there's a pretty sweet idea.
> 
> Would I buy one? Honestly I can't answer that, seeing as I cant imagine what it'd look like, what size it'd be, as well as lots of other variables.
> 
> Would I love to see one? Bet your a$$ I would.


Well, my original thought was to basically take the existing Subs case design, and the existing bracelet/clasp design, and just see if we could get all those parts made here, to the same or a higher standard of quality. Even if there's no change to their design, at least we could say those components are made in the USA, and the assembly is done here.

We could switch up the dial, hands and bezel insets easily enough, if we wanted to get away from "Bah! It's just an homage!"

I mean...for all the talk about the 40mm Subs being played out, my retailers scooped up all but 6 out of the incoming 250 pieces. Their waiting lists are apparently getting pretty long.

That case is what my friend Greg used to say about his college roommate, Fran, a tall, fit, good looking guy with golden locks, who did quite well with the ladies. Greg would say, "Fran's an ET - he's everybody's type."

Could we improve on the bracelet design? Yeah, maybe. We could add some little details to the links, like chamfered edges, and maybe come up with an expansion clasp. I mean, as long as we're headed towards the $3k-$4k range, why the hell not?

But that case design? Why mess with perfection? Maybe...MAYBE...we'd shrink the 2K1's case down to 40mm-41mm. Setting their size differences aside, I think the 2K1's case is arguably an improvement on the 40mm Subs', or we could design a hybrid - I'm thinking the 2K1's mid-case with the 40mm Subs gear-tooth bezel, but let it overhang the mid-case, as on the 2K1's.

As long as we're going there, eff it, let's do something that isn't simply 316L stainless. I've been wanting to use a different metal for a while, but couldn't justify the investment in development for the NTH brand. But, again, if we're putting together the WIS Christmas list, we might as well crack the throttle WFO.

We're way outside the realm of the "affordable microbrand" now. We're into RGM territory. No restrictions.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I still want one with a 7S36...
> 
> ...stupid pandemic ate my money.
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


The Seiko? In what? What are we talking about? I'm lost.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads-up people!

We recently added A LOT of watches to the Nearly New section of the NTH website, including some of the long-sold out / highly sought after versions..._cough_ Barracuda _cough_ Näcken _cough_...

Sorry - only available for US customers at this time.

Get 'em before they're gone, here - Nearly New | NTH Watches


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> The Seiko? In what? What are we talking about? I'm lost.


All this Swiss movement talk, has me feeling contrary.

Plus....

I would love to see what you and your team could unleash in all bets are off design mode.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Well, my original thought was to basically take the existing Subs case design, and the existing bracelet/clasp design, and just see if we could get all those parts made here, to the same or a higher standard of quality. Even if there's no change to their design, at least we could say those components are made in the USA, and the assembly is done here.
> 
> We could switch up the dial, hands and bezel insets easily enough, if we wanted to get away from "Bah! It's just an homage!"
> 
> ...


Ok, this may be a dumb question...

But if you _were_ to do something along these lines, do you think you'd have some stupid high MOQ like you've got with the sub cases? Or would you be able to say, make 10-15 cases with the metal of your choice(or potentially five Ti, five 904L and five bronze) and only enough dials/handsets for those cases? Or is this question completely unanswerable seeing as you haven't even looked into a US based manufacturer?

I'm imagining an incredibly low number LE here.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> All this Swiss movement talk, has me feeling contrary.
> 
> Plus....
> 
> ...


I feel like we're having two conversations simultaneously, but I think I'm following...

If you like the Seiko movements...DevilRay.

I was just at Dan's shop today, talking movements and accuracy, because apparently it's something people still think we should improve. I wanted to revisit an earlier discussion he and I had, about what it would take to get them all running within COSC spec (even if we can't get COSC certification, because they're not Swiss).

What's crazy is how accurate the watches are when we get them - both the Seiko NH3X's and the Miyota 9's - and how crazy stable they are, across all positions. I've been seeing guys on FB talking about amazing performance, and thought, "surely these must be the outliers, lemme confer with Dan..."

















Dan confirms, 95% of what we're getting are running REALLY well, and the 5% that aren't, he gets them running even better. Most of them are running around 6-10 seconds per day.

The challenge is that the regulating mechanism in the Japanese movements is annoyingly stupid, compared to the regulators on the Swiss movements. I was asking him how much more we could tighten up on our accuracy standards, before we hit the point that we'd be forced to do full-blown adjustment, or reject movements, and he says we're pretty much there right now.

As for all bets being off...DevilRay. Yeah, we've used off-the-shelf movements in both the v.1 and v.2, and stuck to traditional materials, etc, but aesthetically, there's nothing about them that I would change. I think we nailed it.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

This guy does almost all of the watch here stateside








Watches | Pelton


Discover the Pelton watch collections. Made in Detroit USA.




www.peltonusa.com





Maybe a good guy to talk too, but I these guys as well produced what they could in the USA 





VERO Watches- Men's unique watches, made for every moment


VERO Watches- best men's watch brands for watches under $1000. Explore men's unique watches at VERO Watch Co




vero-watch.com





Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Ok, this may be a dumb question...
> 
> But if you _were_ to do something along these lines, do you think you'd have some stupid high MOQ like you've got with the sub cases? Or would you be able to say, make 10-15 cases with the metal of your choice(or potentially five Ti, five 904L and five bronze) and only enough dials/handsets for those cases? Or is this question completely unanswerable seeing as you haven't even looked into a US based manufacturer?
> 
> I'm imagining an incredibly low number LE here.


Stateside, we could probably swing a lower quantity, but the tooling and set up costs are killers. That's something we're still trying to figure out.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Well, my original thought was to basically take the existing Subs case design, and the existing bracelet/clasp design, and just see if we could get all those parts made here, to the same or a higher standard of quality. Even if there's no change to their design, at least we could say those components are made in the USA, and the assembly is done here.
> 
> We could switch up the dial, hands and bezel insets easily enough, if we wanted to get away from "Bah! It's just an homage!"
> 
> ...


I know you're just shooting the breeze. In that vein, didn't Zelos do a halo project of $10,000 Tourbillion's.
Okay that's not what your talking about. But the whole halo project thing, as you described it - full American made, and top quality everything.
Even if it was £10,000 I'm sure you could sell 10 or 15 of them (Zelos is a LE of 10) to cover costs AND make it worth your while. You have a lot of very dedicated customers, and you have of course realised the vital importance of social media interaction. Take them with you on your journey, as you always do.
A halo project would bring extra attention to the brand, show original design skill and excellence, satisfy the inner watch nerd, etc


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I know you're just shooting the breeze. In that vein, didn't Zelos do a halo project of $10,000 Tourbillion's.
> Okay that's not what your talking about. But the whole halo project thing, as you described it - full American made, and top quality everything.
> Even if it was £10,000 I'm sure you could sell 10 or 15 of them (Zelos is a LE of 10) to cover costs AND make it worth your while. You have a lot of very dedicated customers, and you have of course realised the vital importance of social media interaction. Take them with you on your journey, as you always do.
> A halo project would bring extra attention to the brand, show original design skill and excellence, satisfy the inner watch nerd, etc


You sound like my business coach. He said nearly the same thing, "so what if you need to make 500 cases? Make 500, assemble 50, and throw the other 450 away. If you're charging enough what difference does it make?"

I dunno. I'm not afraid to admit the idea of making a $1000-$5000 watch scares me.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Can't decide if I want to add one of these to my collection or not.

My heart says, "don't be a dumba$$. Of course you do. It's awesome."

My brain says, "don't be a dumbass. You'll never wear it, and end up practically giving it away."

My brain also says, "Dude, what the serious f**k is wrong with your phone? Why is it making the turquoise lume look paler than it is, almost white? Quit being a cheapskate and just buy a new phone already."

Seriously, I swear the lume is light blue, but not nearly as pale as it appears in this pic or my video.

Swiftsure on ~7" wrist.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I feel like we're having two conversations simultaneously, but I think I'm following...
> 
> If you like the Seiko movements...DevilRay.
> 
> ...


I think the DevilRay is perfect with the NH. I tried somewhat hard to get the Gen1 LE when they were still popping up on eBay. Had a hard look at Gen2. The NH is perfect for a tool watch. I have a SW200 movement in a Deep Blue, it's the grainiest winding watch that I never wear, next to the ETA in my Armida A5. The NHs that I have, butter. Dozens of NHs, only one with any issues (stops when crown up, weird. NH38, might have debris ((cat hair probably)) in it.).

I pestered you enough about the xl, that I'm disappointed that I have to tap out. Still beautiful work that I'll have to admire from afar.

I am definitely curious about the thought of a full throttle design using the Soprod, and I agree with your line of thought that it would have to reside in something completely new. There is no logical reason to just do a movement swap for the subs. The price change wouldn't be incremental, and the 9015 is better for ownership down the road. Staying tuned..

Sadly, I have zero funds for watches due to all this virus stuff for the foreseeable future(first world problems).

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I think the DevilRay is perfect with the NH. I tried somewhat hard to get the Gen1 LE when they were still popping up on eBay. Had a hard look at Gen2. The NH is perfect for a tool watch. I have a SW200 movement in a Deep Blue, it's the grainiest winding watch that I never wear, next to the ETA in my Armida A5. The NHs that I have, butter. Dozens of NHs, only one with any issues (stops when crown up, weird. NH38, might have debris ((cat hair probably)) in it.).
> 
> I pestered you enough about the xl, that I'm disappointed that I have to tap out. Still beautiful work that I'll have to admire from afar.
> 
> ...


I feel ya, Bro. My wife lost her job due to Covid back in March, and it seems like everyone I talk to is working a lot harder just to keep pace with where they were last year. I'll consider it a triumph if we can end this year within 10% of where we were last year, and I'm hustling to get there.

Watches can wait. I'm sure we'll still be making them when your funds are replenished.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> You sound like my business coach. He said nearly the same thing, "so what if you need to make 500 cases? Make 500, assemble 50, and throw the other 450 away. If you're charging enough what difference does it make?"
> 
> I dunno. I'm not afraid to admit the idea of making a $1000-$5000 watch scares me.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Throw 450 away... what a world!

Sell them out the back door to HWA? Recoup.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I feel ya, Bro. My wife lost her job due to Covid back in March, and it seems like everyone I talk to is working a lot harder just to keep pace with where they were last year. I'll consider it a triumph if we can end this year within 10% of where we were last year, and I'm hustling to get there.
> 
> Watches can wait. I'm sure we'll still be making them when your funds are replenished.


The crap part is the "make do with less" plus untempered productivity expectations, that will likely remain for quite some time post apocalypse. Our margins have improved, addictive to stakeholders.

I'm lucky to still be working, but the erratic tempo is hard on my nearing antique meat costume.

Your wares definitely are holding value on the second hand market, good for your brand, bad for my deal hunting... though, I did spot a DLC Phantom for a stupendous price, almost took my can stockpile to the depot over it...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Can't decide if I want to add one of these to my collection or not.
> 
> My heart says, "don't be a dumba$$. Of course you do. It's awesome."
> 
> ...


My goodness, do it. All new design is a big deal, significant. Seems only right that you'd have one.

If you change your mind later, toss it in the Nearly New section. I bet plenty of people would be interested in test driving 2K1.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Throw 450 away... what a world!
> 
> Sell them out the back door to HWA? Recoup.
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


You got that backwards. HWA wants the innards, so he can jam them into $20 El Cheapo cases.

That, or he'd jam some TimeFactors something into one of my cases, and after all the nonsense earlier this year, I can't even...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Seriously, I swear the lume is light blue, but not nearly as pale as it appears in this pic or my video.
> 
> Swiftsure on ~7" wrist.
> 
> ...


Not saying it is, but that looks exactly like when my last phone camera got dust under the outer glass lens.

Ohh.... and pick your favourite, and of course you've got to have it.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> You got that backwards. HWA wants the innards, so he can jam them into $20 El Cheapo cases.
> 
> That, or he'd jam some TimeFactors something into one of my cases, and after all the nonsense earlier this year, I can't even...


Well, if an NH'll fit, and it has 28.5mm dial opening...

I'd take a couple...

I've a spare NE floating around...

Boutique mod supplies!

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> My goodness, do it. All new design is a big deal, significant. Seems only right that you'd have one.
> 
> If you change your mind later, toss it in the Nearly New section. I bet plenty of people would be interested in test driving 2K1.
> 
> ...


As my step-father, the word-smith* would say, "You're encourageable!"

It wouldn't be the first of my watches to end up in the Nearly New section. I put my Skipjack in there, and I'm thinking of adding my Vanguard, and maybe one or two more. My collection is getting out of hand again.

Is it weird for me to admit that I just don't bond with some of my own watches? I feel like I shouldn't ever admit it when a design doesn't do it for me personally, but the truth is, I like some more than others.

Plus, white dials. I don't know what it is, but every time I add a white dial to my collection, they just never last, with very few exceptions (the DevilRay, and my modded Cerberus being all of them, so far).

And, I think the 40mm Subs have ruined me for bigger watches. There was a time I didn't flinch at a 45mm Casio AMW320, or a 42mm cushion case. These days, not so much. The DevilRay is pushing it.

Ordinarily, I might try to hold off for a Barracuda Polar White, but other than the one piece I held back as a blogger / photography sample, the retailers claimed them all, so I'd be holding off until the next time we make them, and I don't know when that'll be.

I really want to want to wear it. It's a great case, and when we compared it to Dan's Boschett Reef Ranger, his Helson Shark Diver, and his Prometheus Piranha, it doesn't feel like quite the tank, but compared to the 40mm Subs...it's a bit of a chonk.

*My step-father could have given Yogi Berra a run for his money. He once told me he checked the weather forecast for our vacation week, and it said there'd be no participation.

He and my mother became convinced some friend of theirs murdered his wife. According to my step-father, the guy had a reason, AND a motive...

He also once said he was scared for my brother to live in NYC, because it's a hot-bed of tourism.

Crawling with tourists. Lousy with them. The whole city. Nothing but tourists running around, doing some scary $hlt, I guess.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Not saying it is, but that looks exactly like when my last phone camera got dust under the outer glass lens.
> 
> Ohh.... and pick your favourite, and of course you've got to have it.


It's possible, but I've also seen how mobile cameras (at least the ones I've had) don't do such a great job rendering blues very well. I've seen pics of the Barracuda Blue in which the bezel looked green, and the dial purple. In others, they're a dead-match.

I'll see if I can get some better pics tomorrow or whenever. Maybe some natural light will be the difference maker.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Did some image tuning. This looks a little better / closer to reality, I think...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Throw 450 away... what a world!
> 
> Sell them out the back door to HWA? Recoup.
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


On the real though...

I forget the exact number, but he was convinced (too convinced, IMO) that I could make and sell a $10,000+ watch, under the NTH brand, assuming it was made in very small quantities.

The number $17.000 sticks out in my head. Not that he was fixed on that number. I think it was just a big number he pulled out of thin air.

I'm not exactly sure why he thought that. He's not a watch-geek, obviously. I did my best to explain the nuances of watch geekery to him, but he seemed to not really get it.

His view was that if we kept the production numbers really low, like, 50 pieces, or something like that, and made a big deal about the limited numbers, there were 50 guys out there who'd be willing to pay damned near anything to get one, because there'd only be 50.

I think I might have explained the steel Patek / Rolex sport models phenomenon to him before he got this idea stuck in his head.

When I brought up my MOQ's - that's when he said I could throw 450 cases away if I was able to sell the other 50 for $17k, and as far as the math goes, he wasn't wrong.

But...Nazario, and Carolina, and at least a half dozen other NTH models were made in very limited numbers. Nobody's shelling out more than $1k for a Zwaardvis, and I think we only made 20 of those.

Obviously, there's some limitations on what I can charge for a watch, but it is interesting to see how someone who ISN'T into watches perceives the concept of scarcity and exclusivity when it comes to something like a watch. I think he's a little fuzzy on the elements of what gives a watch brand "prestige".

All that said, he's not entirely wrong, conceptually. There are a lot of crap watches being sold for absurd prices, because of good marketing and the perception of exclusivity, prestige, etc.


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## one onety-one (Jul 20, 2020)

docvail said:


> The movement doesn't interest me enough if all we're doing is swapping it out for the 9015. I was interested in using it for a completely different project - American-made case, at a minimum, if not all the steel parts made here, and final assembly being done here. My best guess is we'd be talking about a $3k-$4k watch by that point.


😲 A 400% (!) increase! They must be feeding the labor grass and water, in Asia. Sad that we have let manufacturing leave our country and we can't afford to bring it back.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Here's a couple of terrific watches...









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Can't decide if I want to add one of these to my collection or not.
> 
> My heart says, "don't be a dumba$$. Of course you do. It's awesome."
> 
> ...


Hey doc, you might need to "invest" in a decent digital camera for occasions like these. Doesn't mean you'd need to start doing full pro photosessions yourself, but a snapshot with a good* camera would go much further, especially on instagram/facebook, than a phone pic.

*- basically anything within the last 10 years, made by a decent camera company (sony, canon, fujifilm, panasonic, olympus, etc.) with a decent replaceable lens.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> But that case design? Why mess with perfection? Maybe...MAYBE...we'd shrink the 2K1's case down to 40mm-41mm


man i didn't want to be *that* guy to start pissing in your ear about it before the 2k1s are even out.. but I would be all over that.

also, I this is going quite a few pages back.. but I think I am in the minority with my tastes. 3-1 for the swords


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> man i didn't want to be *that* guy to start pissing in your ear about it before the 2k1s are even out.. but I would be all over that.
> 
> also, I this is going quite a few pages back.. but I think I am in the minority with my tastes. 3-1 for the swords
> 
> View attachment 15497104


I love sword hands. Snowflake hands I hate. And I'm stubborn as ****, so I doubt that'll change.

If the Swiftsure had snowflakes, I wouldnt be waiting on my white no date right now. I'd be impatiently waiting for the next model, with fingers crossed the handset would change.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> But...Nazario, and Carolina, and at least a half dozen other NTH models were made in very limited numbers. Nobody's shelling out more than $1k for a Zwaardvis, and I think we only made 20 of those.


I had no idea that you'd made an Orange Nth Sub. Why only 20 ??
I'd buy that, over all the others. (Though I love the all black Cali - Nazario).









It could replace this Lorus 40mm I bought purely on a whim. My first 40mm dive style watch, before this I was used to larger size divers. It makes a great quartz outdoors watch though. But the NTH would be a "proper" watch, if you understand my random arbitrary distinction.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> (Though I like the all black Cali - Nazario I think it's called).
> 
> Which one? The original(I think) Nazario?
> 
> ...


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

This is probably my favourite design irrespective of colour. But then I've always been a less is more type. Unless it's too little. The tip of the hour hand would be the only thing to make me doubt. 


catsteeth said:


> I had no idea that you'd made an Orange Nth Sub. Why only 20 ??
> I'd buy that, over all the others. (Though I love the all black Cali - Nazario).
> View attachment 15497211


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

That 2K1 on your 7" wrist... if I was ever wavering about getting one or not, that would be the deciding factor against. Also 7" wrist, and I know perspective can play a role, but that thing looks huge. Being a white dial also doesn't help. You should have one as a reference for company history, but too large for me.

I think I said it before when there was discussion about a $1k+ Sub - current retail is about as much as I will pay for a sub-style watch, from any brand. The specs are perfectly fine. "Better" spec at higher price? You lost me... And I don't think I'm alone with this thinking.

Let alone a halo piece. Zelos has done a few runs of limited edition releases with stuff like their regular models in Timascus cases. Elshan did more than a few of those in the $1-3k range, before releasing a $10k+ halo model. I think that kind of lead-up was smart, and by all accounts, he's done well with such releases. 

Start small. MOQ for damascus steel or mokune gane Sub cases, and then do limited releases of various sub styles with every Sub run. Add in stuff to further differentiate, like mixing up hands/dials, DLC bezel (not just insert), etc. Get customers used to paying a premium for limited releases, and then launch something Big.

For "USA Made," I'd be looking at a business model like Weiss. They seem to do well, marketing their USA-ness, and look to be able to charge a premium for it.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Double dipped


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

*In Reply to Thebearded*, (won't reply/quote as you've written in the previous quote) 

Ahh.. in that case I definitely meant Ghost Nazario. Then the blue Cali. But definitely the Ghost. Though I like the original, but there's three colours of print. White, beige/fauxtina, red. I think it makes it looks little to busy.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Aaah said:


> This is probably my favourite design irrespective of colour. But then I've always been a less is more type. Unless it's too little. The tip of the hour hand would be the only thing to make me doubt.


Matt orange, and less is more. I definitely agree. Though I like that Glycine type non-Mercedes style round hour hand.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

catsteeth said:


> I had no idea that you'd made an Orange Nth Sub. Why only 20 ??
> I'd buy that, over all the others. (Though I love the all black Cali - Nazario).


I was looking for an orange watch, upon a time, also shopping NTH, but the hour hand kills it for me. A sword hand and I would have been much more interested. Also, no date - was there even a date version?

In any case, it sold poorly. So much so, I believe the last two were literally given away - raffled off in support of a worthy cause.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> I was looking for an orange watch, upon a time, also shopping NTH, but the hour hand kills it for me. A sword hand and I would have been much more interested. Also, no date - was there even a date version?
> 
> In any case, it sold poorly. So much so, I believe the last two were literally given away - raffled off in support of a worthy cause.


I'm not keen on mercedes hands, but that round (what would you call it?) style hour hand is fine, I actually like it. Go figure.

The style I couldn't abide is snowflake hands. I _really_ like them on Tudors. But I'm becoming personally very averse to any too obvious homage watch. Although the basic sub is so universal as to be completely beyond the homage label, and fine.Though they're much better off without mercedes hands, and like you, I like the sword hands.
However, I must say I enjoyed the couple of homage watches I had (long gone), and I like looking at other people's on here. I'm not a _hater_, I'm a tolerant _liker_ of everybody's personal watch choice. In fact I keep nearly buying them, because they're good value. But I know they'd only annoy me. I've found buying a substitute for a watch you really want, is a massively false economy.
I still have a Bautilous _Copy_ (not homage) I keep meaning to move on, but I don't even like looking at it.

I'm astonished the orange NTH sold so poorly. But then I like the Nazario Ghost too. My favourite 2 NTH's are the two with the most limited runs, and which weren't popular, so what do I know...

Yeah, I'm a date fan too. I use watches practically, dates are useful for my middle-aged, abused and addled brain 🥴l


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yes, we made both with-date and no-date versions of the Zwaardvis, I think 10 each, without going back and looking for the numbers, since I'm pretty sure that's right.

Why only 20? There was a weird situation that played out in mid-2018. We were down to the last NTH Subs cases from our first 1000-piece production. It was an odd-ball number of cases, not very large, and yet we had a bunch of new designs ginned up, which I wanted to produce.

I wanted to produce the Nacken Renegade, the Zwaardvis, the Scorpene Blue, the Barracuda Blue, and some other models, I forget which. I think I was planning to make 25 per version, for most, if not all of them.

But the demand for the Nacken Modern Blue was through the roof at the time. And John from Watch Gauge pleaded with me to make more than I'd been planning to make.

In order to make more of the Modern Blue, we had to cut back on making some of the others. I cut back more on those models I was less sure of than those which I felt were stronger designs.

From there, things played out more or less naturally - I base my decisions on whether or not to make more of any model based on how well (or not) it sells. The Renegade, Scorpene Blue and Barracuda Blue sold well enough to justify making more. The Zwaardvis didn't.

Why was the Zwaardvis not better-received? Meh, I think orange dials are something that sound better in theory than they are in reality. We've made four different models with orange dials - the Lew & Huey Spectre, the Lew & Huey Orthos, the Zwaardvis, and the DevilRay. None of them sold as well as we expected, though some sold better than others.

When we made the DevilRay, Kaj from Serious Watches, in the Netherlands told me the Dutch tend to shy away from orange. It's ironic, given that it's the color of the Dutch royal family, but apparently the Dutch have grown weary of it, for that reason.

I'm sure the hands didn't help. I personally don't like the style, but I thought they were right for that design, which was meant to be a mash-up homage to a Tudor Sub, and a Tag Heuer - the Tudor's dial layout and the Tudor's handset with the Tag's coloring.

The only other handset which seemed appropriate seemed to be the cathedral hands we used on the Bahia, as they were used on the Tag Monins. They may have been a better choice, in retrospect, but we'll never know.

Someone once called those hands "cock hands", and showed me this pic. It's never left me...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

one onety-one said:


> ? A 400% (!) increase! They must be feeding the labor grass and water, in Asia. Sad that we have let manufacturing leave our country and we can't afford to bring it back.


Indeed.

It's not just the labor, though that's a big part of it. Their labor rates are about 1/10th what ours are. Though they are coming up, as their cost of living increases, and demand for labor rises.

But it's more than that. They don't have the same sort of drags on business there. They have a much lower cost of compliance with government oversight. They have something like the EPA and OSHA, but nothing like what we have here. There's much less litigation cost.

There are also some big differences in what's considered "normal" here versus there, in terms of manufacturing processes. Over there, they do a lot of cold forging, which is one of the main processes used in forming steel parts, like cases and bracelet links.

Here, it's much less common. I've been told that it's a "dirty" process. So in the USA, you see less of it, and more CNC machining and EDM (electrical discharge machining). A cold forging facility looks like a factory from 75 years ago. A CNC or EDM facility looks like a high-tech lab, by comparison.

CNC and EDM are better when the product requires tighter tolerances, and are also more suited to what is deemed "high-mix, low-volume" manufacturing, i.e, when there's a lot of variation in what's being made, but what's being made isn't being made in large numbers.

When we talked to CNC and EDM shops, they were typically working with aviation and medical technology companies, using machines to build other machines. There was very little production of consumer products happening, so there was very little concern regarding "how much is this going to cost the customer?"

Cold forging is just the opposite, it's better for low-mix, high-volume, like making 500 watch cases, which are all the same, and don't require the same level of precision needed for a medical device, or the same strength needed for an aviation part.

When you compare the set-up and tooling costs, the differences are dramatic. For cold-forging, we might incur a few thousand dollars in costs to create a dozen tool-and-die tungsten carbide molds. Those costs are generally waived once we exceed the factory's MOQ.

For CNC, we'd typically be looking at much higher set-up and tooling costs. There's time being spent on programming the machines, which you don't have with cold-forging.

When we started looking at what it would take to bring watch manufacturing back here, it was immediately obvious that we had to find a way to offset the huge difference in labor costs. The most obvious way to do that is with automation - using robots to replace humans. The set-up and tooling costs involved were unknown to me, and thus a big surprise.

When you add the cost of programming the machines and the robots to the cost of tooling and set up, the numbers start to get really large.

If a company wanted to own the CNC or EDM machines needed to make lots of different parts in volume - cases, as well as bracelet links, clasps, etc - they would likely cost millions to purchase. A better solution is to find a company that already has the machines, and does contract manufacturing.

But even then - setting up and creating tooling for each machine, to make each part, and programming it, and the robot to run it, would cost tens of thousands of dollars - for each part being made. Even if you skip the robot, then you're back to the higher labor costs.

I've talked to 5-6 different shops here in the US, and visited two of them with Dan. We keep getting the same reactions.

None of these guys think we can get the costs down to the point where it would make sense to produce 300-500 pieces of something. We'd need to be producing parts by the tens of thousands to offset the huge set-up, tooling, and programming costs.

When people in the industry talk about "bringing it back to the USA", they're almost all focused on the movement. I always thought that would be the hardest thing to make here, so I focused on all the other parts, particularly the big ones, and those made of steel.

But after finding what I did, I reached out to Chris Wiegand at Lum-Tec. I figured, if anyone had taken a hard look at this, it would have been him. If anyone might have gotten close to figuring this out, it would be him.

Turns out, Chris has looked into it, both making movements, and making all the other parts, as I did, and found other challenges.

He said he looked into movement production - it would take millions of dollars up front, just to get to the point that you could make a few thousand movements per year, which would cost about twice what a Soprod M100 does, and that still doesn't include any long-term testing. The movement would be unproven.

As for the steel parts, on top of the higher labor and set-up costs, he told me that we just can't get good finishing here for what it costs to get it done elsewhere. We can do a media-blasted finish well enough, if that's what you want. In theory, you could get a good polished finish from a machine.

But brushing? No way. That's someone standing there, holding the part to a brushing wheel. The labor costs would kill us, and the product wouldn't likely be as well-finished as what we're getting now. It limits our ability to produce what we really want - something like the NTH Subs, as good as they currently are, at a price remotely close to "reasonable".

How does ETA (or for that matter, Seiko or Miyota) get the cost of their movements so low? They've effectively amortized all their R&D costs and investment in plants and equipment over decades, and tens of millions of movements produced.

This all goes back to why I've been saying the Swiss authorities really need to break Swatch up, and get ETA and the other production companies out and away from Swatch's retail brands, so they can be independent, and support any / all brands, not just Swatch brands.

Other than the Japanese, no one, not Selitta, not Ronda, not STP, not Soprod, can yet compete with ETA on a level playing field, because of how Swatch was allowed to gobble up all those production companies decades ago. ETA's production capacity dwarfs all the others', and with lower costs.

As for the Japanese - Japan's been struggling with declining birth rates for some time, maybe decades. It's a real problem, and has led to a shrinking workforce there, as well as increasing labor rates. It limits their ability to increase their production capacity. Last year, Miyota put the entire industry on notice, when they announced they'd be discontinuing production of several lower-demand calibres, specifically citing their shrinking workforce.

If you look at what other brands who are "bringing it back" are doing, none of them are really "complete" solutions. A brand might make the cases, but that's all. They use stock movements, and throw it on a leather or rubber strap, not a bracelet.

Or they might "make" the movements, but the movements are ETA clones, and it's unclear how much of the movement is really being "made" here, in the commonly-understood sense of what "made" means. Don't ask where the case or other components are made.

What's happening most often is that all the parts are being made by another company, probably off-shore, and only assembly is being done here, the way Lum-Tec does it.

And all of them are sold at prices higher than comparably-spec'd watches. When Weiss launched their standard field watch with a Unitas clone at $1200, you could get a "Swiss Made" Hamilton Khaki field watch with an actual Unitas for around $600, sometimes around $400 if you caught a sale.

The same basic watch with a Chinese Unitas clone could be put together for less than $150, or bought completely assembled for not much more. You can get a Tisell Pilot for $160. I see some on AliExpress for $50-$100.

I'm not saying the Weiss isn't different / better than the Chinese clone. I'm sure it is. But how much better than the Hamilton is it? And, if all you care about are specs...they're all the same. And from what I've seen, people don't really put a lot of value on "assembled in the USA".

In every case, you're paying a premium just to say the watch has some "America" in it. In a global market, that's of negligible value to most customers outside the USA.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

Your 'cock' hands brought this to mind for me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hey doc, you might need to "invest" in a decent digital camera for occasions like these. Doesn't mean you'd need to start doing full pro photosessions yourself, but a snapshot with a good* camera would go much further, especially on instagram/facebook, than a phone pic.
> 
> *- basically anything within the last 10 years, made by a decent camera company (sony, canon, fujifilm, panasonic, olympus, etc.) with a decent replaceable lens.


I have one. I just never use it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> ...I'm astonished the orange NTH sold so poorly. But then I like the Nazario Ghost too. My favourite 2 NTH's are the two with the most limited runs, and which weren't popular, so what do I know...


Just to clarify...we made 50 of the Nazario Ghost. That's not really a small number for an NTH Subs version. It's actually pretty typical. And the Ghost actually sold out pretty quickly. It wasn't unpopular.

Whatever dial we want to produce, our MOQ on that dial is 50. If we make date and no-date versions of a model, it's 50 of each, 100 total.

There have been plenty of low-number specials we've made. It's not always because they didn't sell, or because I wasn't confident in how well they'd sell. Sometimes it's a function of how many parts we have left available from an earlier production run, as it was with those examples from mid-2018. Or if a model is going to be something exclusive to one retailer, then it may be a function of how many pieces a retailer can rationalize underwriting.

As an example - we only made 25 of the original Nazario, because that's how many John and I felt we should make at first. I told him at least three times NOT to call it a "Limited Edition", because we might be able to rationalize making more. I told him to call it a "Special Edition", or an "Exclusive Edition", as in, exclusively available from his store.

But he went ahead and called it an LE anyway, making a big deal out of how we were only making 25, so we only made 25, when we could have made and easily sold another 25 after the original production. I know, because I've seen them selling on eBay for more than full retail price.

We only made 15 of the Watch Gauge LE version of the DevilRay - pretty much the same story. John and I thought 15 was the right number to start with, and I wanted to leave the door open to making more, but John shut it by calling it an LE, and saying we were only making 15.

We only made 25 of the Deep Six DevilRay. That was supposed to be a special edition for another store. We only had 25 cases left available, and that was all the store could afford to underwrite anyway, regardless of how many we might have thought we could sell.

The store ended up not joining the retail partners team, but we'd already gone ahead and put "Limited Edition" on the dial, so that was that. We could have sold more, I know, because the blue-dialed variant of the v.2 DevilRay has sold the quickest, out of the three current colorways.

We made 50 of the Nazario Sauro, and sold them all quickly enough, so we came back with another 25. My factory just happened to have made 75 dials when we ordered the first 50. Long story.

Except for the handful of models we produced in really low, odd-ball numbers, almost every version of every model has been or is assembled in batches of 25 to 50, depending on whether or not we're making both a with-date and no-date version.

In either case, we'll assemble the first 25-50 pieces of a Subs version, then see if there's enough demand to make another 25-50, using the dials we'd have left over, due to the 50-piece MOQ on that part. If not, then eff it, we'll let the remaining dials sit on a shelf indefinitely, until a day comes when we feel like using them. Until then, we'll make something else.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Just to clarify...we made 50 of the Nazario Ghost. That's not really a small number for an NTH Subs version. It's actually pretty typical. And the Ghost actually sold out pretty quickly. It wasn't unpopular.
> 
> Whatever dial we want to produce, our MOQ on that dial is 50. If we make date and no-date versions of a model, it's 50 of each, 100 total.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I misconstrued something someone said in a previous post. I didn't phrase myself carefully, I didn't mean to imply the Nazario Ghost was unpopular.

All three of your last more detailed posts have been really interesting. Thank you.
Though, I imagine as you're on page 189 (according to my browser anyway) you're having to say the same old stuff to different people fairly regularly. 🤦‍♂️ A real Saint Sisyphus of NTH customer relations, among other roles of course, to collide two sets of mythology/religion...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Aaah said:


> Your 'cock' hands brought this to mind for me.
> 
> View attachment 15497716


WTH is that? Apart from being some kind of plastic avian with a top hat and a bladder of blue piss?


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> WTH is that? Apart from being some kind of plastic avian with a top hat and a bladder of blue piss?


Drinking duck? Before MS Windows gave us virtual solitaire, office desks were covered with all sorts of crap. 








Drinking bird - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Just watched part of a recent Bruce Williams video on a Zelos. Mentioned thinking that Zelos was the first with lumed crown. NTH gets no respect, I tell you. No respect at all.


Bruh... This is so irritating. I pitched the idea to Chris when we were designing the Subs, half-joking. I rendered the case from the side with lume in the crown, thinking it would be a cool detail I hadn't seen anywhere. I didn't realize he'd taken it seriously until he came back a day or so later and said, "We can do that." Once the first Subs were shown with the lumed crown, everyone and their brother started showing up with lumed crowns. When I was working on Atticus, I mentioned to Chris that I was going to skip the crown lume because "everyone is doing it now." He said something to the tune of, "eff that - it was YOUR idea, you do you."

So... take THIS, copycats...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I'm sorry, I misconstrued something someone said in a previous post. I didn't phrase myself carefully, I didn't mean to imply the Nazario Ghost was unpopular.
> 
> All three of your last more detailed posts have been really interesting. Thank you.
> Though, I imagine as you're on page 189 (according to my browser anyway) you're having to say the same old stuff to different people fairly regularly. ?‍♂ A real Saint Sisyphus of NTH customer relations, among other roles of course, to collide two sets of mythology/religion...


All true.

My Dad sometimes lurks here. I'm sure the Sisyphus thing has occurred to him.

No doubt he probably doesn't see me as saintly in any way.

I know my wife wouldn't.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Bruh... This is so irritating. I pitched the idea to Chris when we were designing the Subs, half-joking. I rendered the case from the side with lume in the crown, thinking it would be a cool detail I hadn't seen anywhere. I didn't realize he'd taken it seriously until he came back a day or so later and said, "We can do that." Once the first Subs were shown with the lumed crown, everyone and their brother started showing up with lumed crowns. When I was working on Atticus, I mentioned to Chris that I was going to skip the crown lume because "everyone is doing it now." He said something to the tune of, "eff that - it was YOUR idea, you do you."
> 
> So... take THIS, copycats...
> 
> View attachment 15498131


Now its completely evolved.

Case backs, straps, portions of the watch case itself.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents, just a heads-up...

I just put the 2K1's up for sale on the NTH website. You can buy them now, but we likely won't be able to ship any of them until late this week, at the earliest, and probably not until early next week.









2K1 Subs







nthwatches.com





Watch Gauge received their inventory today. If he's on the ball (and I'd say it's 50-50 if he is), John will make them available for sale tomorrow. Ditto for Kaj at Serious Watches in the EU (though he likely won't get his until late this week or early next). Though John says he'll make them available on his site tonight. We'll see.

IntoWatch in S.Korea opted not to order and 2K1's, as it seems bigger watches don't do well there. But Five:45 in New Zealand, and The WatchDrobe in HK did. Their inventory is on its way to them, or will be soon. I'm not certain when they'll start selling them, if they'll wait until they receive their inventory or start sooner.

If you're interested in one of the DLC versions, don't think about it too long. We only made 5 pieces of each of them (5 with date / 5 no date for the Swiftsure Black, and the same for the Thresher Black).


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

With the 2K1s in Johns hands at WG, its official, I've got a veritable bounty of watches and watch stuff headed my way.

My tracking app is currently tracking _five_ orders.
Swiftsure
Ball EM III Legend
Venturo Skindiver
Adapters+NATO for my G-Shock Mudmaster
And a 21mm leather strap from Patrik at Clover

I think I might have a wee bit of a problem. Oh well.... Its better than the booze I gave up about 18 months ago. I guess the addiction manifested itself elsewhere.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> With the 2K1s in Johns hands at WG, its official, I've got a veritable bounty of watches and watch stuff headed my way.
> 
> My tracking app is currently tracking _five_ orders.
> Swiftsure
> ...


Patrik makes some awesome straps. For me my favorite non metal bracelet watch strap is Erika's, I need to try some of the competition as hers are super spendy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I'm sorry, I misconstrued something someone said in a previous post. I didn't phrase myself carefully, I didn't mean to imply the Nazario Ghost was unpopular.
> 
> All three of your last more detailed posts have been really interesting. Thank you.
> Though, I imagine as you're on page 189 (according to my browser anyway) you're having to say the same old stuff to different people fairly regularly. ?‍♂ A real Saint Sisyphus of NTH customer relations, among other roles of course, to collide two sets of mythology/religion...


No apology needed. I took no offense.

Not everything we make is equally popular. There have been 43 versions of the Subs produced. One has to be the best-seller, and one the worst. Every other version would be somewhere between them. If there weren't such a thing as mediocre songs, there would be no Greatest Hits albums.

Compared to the hottest-sellers, none of the Nazarios (or any of the other versions) have been that popular, as we've typically only been able to rationalize making 25-75 of them, whereas we'll have made over 600 of the Nacken Modern Blue by the end of this year. There are a couple other Subs versions we've made 300+ of, but for all the rest, their numbers range from 20 to 150 pieces.

I said the Ghost sold quickly enough. They did. They should have, since we only made 50 of them. I'm happy enough if we'll eventually be able to use up all the dials we've produced for any given version, and if we turn all the inventory over within ~90 days, on average. I'm deliriously happy when a version sells so quickly we can justify making more, and the sooner, the better.

Now that I'm looking at their numbers, we'll have made 4115 NTH Subs by the end of this year. That's not too shabby, I think, for a relatively obscure boutique brand.

Epilogue, regarding the Zwaardvis, which I forgot to include in my earlier post about it...

There was one among the samples we just received back from one of our retailers, watches which were among those we just added to the Nearly New section of the website. The reason the Zwaardvis didn't make it to the site was because Dan liked it, and snagged it for his own collection.

So...even with the models that sell poorly - someone always likes them.

As they say in the car business, "there's an a$$ for every seat."


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Yes, we made both with-date and no-date versions of the Zwaardvis, I think 10 each, without going back and looking for the numbers, since I'm pretty sure that's right.
> 
> Why only 20? There was a weird situation that played out in mid-2018. We were down to the last NTH Subs cases from our first 1000-piece production. It was an odd-ball number of cases, not very large, and yet we had a bunch of new designs ginned up, which I wanted to produce.
> 
> ...


Someone said Zwaardvis? I love it. Didn't know I had one of 20. Very cool. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> All three of your last more detailed posts have been really interesting. Thank you.
> Though, I imagine as you're on page 189 (according to my browser anyway) you're having to say the same old stuff to different people fairly regularly. 🤦‍♂️ A real Saint Sisyphus of NTH customer relations, among other roles of course, to collide two sets of mythology/religion...


Just for the record, this is the third or fourth of these long threads (maybe fifth, including Lew and Huey, I've lost track). All combined we must be up to over 1000 walls of text. Just sayin'


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> You got that backwards. HWA wants the innards, so he can jam them into $20 El Cheapo cases.
> 
> That, or he'd jam some TimeFactors something into one of my cases, and after all the nonsense earlier this year, I can't even...












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Epic.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

My first sub was the Amphion Vintage Blue, which I believe there were only 10 made.










Since that first purchase I have added a few more, but I have gone down the @hwa ; route and created my own unique versions of NTH Subs I wished Chris had made. First was the Santa Fe with aftermarket skeleton snowflake hands, a Barracuda bezel with C3 lume and a Jubilee bracelet. The second a Barracuda blue with aftermarket sword hands, Amphion blue bezel and an Oyster bracelet with glidelock clasp.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Epic.


Please don't encourage him.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Under the heading of "what people expect for >$1000", Formex just took things up a notch with their new REEF diver, which appears to have just broken cover this morning...


















FORMEX | Innovating Swiss precision. Made for the enthusiast.


FORMEX swiss watches is a watch maker from Biel/Bienne. Our unisex watches are Swiss Made, mechanical and engineered for more functionality & comfort.




usd.formexwatch.com





Things to check out -

1. That clasp on the bracelet - very slick. Also the buckle on the rubber strap - pretty slick.

2. Their quick-release mechanism - first time I've seen anything like that. It looks easier to use than other quick-release mechanisms.

3. It's 42mm x 11.4mm thick, with 30 ATM WR - so, thinner than the NTH Subs, despite being wider, albeit, with the thinner (and COSC-certified) SW300 (ETA 2892 clone) inside.

I'm not certain what "Height: 11.4mm (perceived 9.4mm)" means, but my guess is they're either suggesting that it "feels" like 9.4mm, which is an odd thing to suggest, and oddly specific at that, or perhaps that's just the case height without counting either the crystal or case-back, or maybe both, as it doesn't appear that the crystal stands very proud of the case:










4. The case doesn't appear to feature the spring-loaded suspension system other Formex models have, which I suspect adds to the thickness of those other models. Also, I think 42mm is smaller than all their other models.

5. It's $1600-$1700 (pre-order vs. regular price, depending on where you get it - it's available from both Watch Gauge and Serious, or the Formex site) including shipping, and all duties and taxes, and a 3 year warranty.

There are a lot of little nuances there, like the faceted bracelet links, and the combination (polished + brushed) finish on the hour markers. Those are little things that you don't see very frequently, but add to the cost.

Seems like a lot of watch for the money, and stiff competition for the likes of the Monta and Oak & Oscar, in the boutique brand / high-end dive-watch stakes.

And...it gives me that much more pause about jumping into the >$1k price range.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Shout-out to Doc for helping me snag a DLC Thresher with date from half way around the flat earth!


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’m guessing the 9.4-11.4 is case height-bezel height... 2mm(ish) bezel edge? It’s an odd stat...

Also, lovely renders. 

That quick release! That is super cool... somewhat unnecessary, but brilliant(would be interesting to see how it works)...

The logo reminds me of mww’s... sort of.. 

Also R E E F. Both shouty and slow.

Well, nitpicking does increase as price does...


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Under the heading of "what people expect for >$1000", Formex just took things up a notch with their new REEF diver, which appears to have just broken cover this morning...
> 
> View attachment 15498969
> 
> ...


If I read StufflerMikes post about it correctly, from the Formex site, you can mix/match/play with different color combos, etc for a semi-custom.

Glad the changed the logo too, drastic improvement. Still not a fan of the name though.

Edit: just checked the Formex site. Looks like other than strap or bracelet, you can choose one of four different bezel inserts and one of the multiple dial colors.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> If I read StufflerMikes post about it correctly, from the Formex site, you can mix/match/play with different color combos, etc for a semi-custom.
> 
> Glad the changed the logo too, drastic improvement. Still not a fan of the name though.
> 
> Edit: just checked the Formex site. Looks like other than strap or bracelet, you can choose one of four different bezel inserts and one of the multiple dial colors.


Yeah, 4 dials, 4 bezels, 2 straps gives 32 watches. I've always been curious as to why NTH hadn't gone down this route.

Been a fan of Formex for a while. I don't _like _the name but I don't dislike it enough to put me off. The only drawback to the Essence or Essence Leggera for me is the 43mm diameter. Everything I read about them suggests they're not a microbrand in terms of financing and industry connections, I would be cautious about using them as a benchmark.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Under the heading of "what people expect for >$1000", Formex just took things up a notch with their new REEF diver, which appears to have just broken cover this morning...
> 
> View attachment 15498969
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's a pretty feature-full watch.

You know what's the worst thing though?
Reading the feature list, my gut instinct was going "that seems pretty good for a €1000 watch!". That probably says more about me than the watch, but..

I wonder, going forward, when this watch gets reviewed by all the usual u-tubers and discussed on forums.. will people still say that Formex's asking price of $1600 is too much?


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

QUOTE FROM X-2 ELIJAH, "You know what's the worst thing though?
Reading the feature list, my gut instinct was going "that seems pretty good for a €1000 watch!". That probably says more about me than the watch, but..

I wonder, going forward, when this watch gets reviewed by all the usual u-tubers and discussed on forums.. will people still say that Formex's asking price of $1600 is too much?"

Dollars to donuts; at least one person will spout; "For the money you can get two NTHs!. Vail's prices are far more reasonable."


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Under the heading of "what people expect for >$1000", Formex just took things up a notch with their new REEF diver, which appears to have just broken cover this morning...
> 
> View attachment 15498969
> 
> ...


That Formex Reef is exactly my kind of watch right now, except for one little thing, the price. I cannot justify that kind of expenditure on a microbrand. I have been lusting over the Monta Atlas and the Farer Lander GMT's but again the price is way out of my comfort zone.

I have only once gone above £1000 and that was for an Omega Aqua Terra 2500. That watch was what got me into watches 15 years ago and I had been lusting after it all that time until I picked one up second hand in 2018 after my Gran left me some money in her will.

If I was going to spend that kind of money again I would probably go for an Omega 2254 or an original PO. Don't get me wrong, these are lovely looking watches with some neat features but who knows what kind of long term support I could look forwards to from Formex.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Omegafanboy said:


> but who knows what kind of long term support I could look forwards to from Formex.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Formex has been around for 21 years? I'd bet they'll stay around for quite a while longer.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> My first sub was the Amphion Vintage Blue, which I believe there were only 10 made.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love what you've done to that blue Barracuda, those sword hands are excellent. I'd love to see it, if we ever do a gtg again.
It's a close call between it, and the blue Amphion. But I think in this case, I prefer the added indices, as opposed to the printed ones.
It's a beautiful blue as well. ?


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Formex
I really like the idea of Formex. What they stand for - a brand dedicated to tough but well made automatic watches.

But I have 2 big problems with them.
1) The tough watch is amply covered already. Though there's always room for another. But if I was going to get a tough watch it'd be a Sinn, or possibly Damasko. Or in the Luxury market a Martin Baker - The Ejection one (though I'm not overly keen on the brand).
2) I find them very pedestrian looking. Like a tough Casio.

I like their whole shock absorber thing, but just wish I found them better looking. However, I do know they're very popular.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Good ol cerb









Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Mil6161 said:


> Good ol cerb
> View attachment 15499594
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


I tell ya, there is so much that is right with the Cerberus - detailing, style and relative dims, mine are still very much in the rotation and regularly draw appreciative comments, are they perfect?? almost.........










Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> ...around the flat earth!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I'm guessing the 9.4-11.4 is case height-bezel height... 2mm(ish) bezel edge? It's an odd stat...
> 
> Also, lovely renders.
> 
> ...


If they're discounting the bezel height, that seems really odd. The least-odd explanation I can come up with is they're discounting the portion of the thickness which comes from the crystal and / or case-back.

I don't think the quick-release is entirely pointless. I've struggled to get some end-links re-attached to some cases, and my OCD habit of trimming my fingernails super-short makes the pull-knob type of quick release unusable for me. What they have there looks pretty genius.

I hadn't even noticed they redesigned the logo. I'd say it's an improvement over the original. The R E E F thing doesn't bother me. At least they used the same font as the logo, and the kerning seems okay, so Aaron can breathe a sigh of relief (the Mad Scotsman is a kerning N4zi).

Any nitpicking would seem to be mostly a matter of people's personal preferences at this point, as opposed to things WIS would more or less unanimously deem to be "wrong" on their face.

I met the Formex guys a couple years back. Seemed like good dudes. I hope they do well with it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaah said:


> Yeah, 4 dials, 4 bezels, 2 straps gives 32 watches. I've always been curious as to why NTH hadn't gone down this route.
> 
> Been a fan of Formex for a while. I don't _like _the name but I don't dislike it enough to put me off. The only drawback to the Essence or Essence Leggera for me is the 43mm diameter. Everything I read about them suggests they're not a microbrand in terms of financing and industry connections, I would be cautious about using them as a benchmark.


NTH has produced 43 different versions of the Subs.

That's a lot. And it doesn't even include date/no-date options, or DLC versions.

Why not give people the ability to mix-and-match, pre-sale, on our website?

The question's been asked and answered before. But, to sum up...

1. It's a nightmare for retailers.

Notice that Formex's retailers are not offering that customization feature.

2. It's a nightmare for NTH.

We already struggle with the high number of SKUs we're creating, and assembling them in numbers as low as 25 for a typical release. The next release of 40mm Subs has just 6 basic models, but with date/no-date, DLC or stainless case, and oyster or BOR bracelet options, the 6 models give us 26 SKUs. That's _A LOT_ of variation to manage, both for us, and our retailers.

Plus - we outsource order fulfillment. Once Dan finishes QC, he'll ship all the retailers' inventory to them, and whatever inventory we have left, he'll ship to our warehouse. We're not set up to provide customers with the ability to mix-and-match components pre-sale. Who would do that, where, and when, the way this business currently runs?

We looked into this sort of functionality, for the website, like a product configurator engine. It's not easy to do.

3. We sell bezel inserts.

You want to slap a blue 12 hour bezel on your Barracuda Vintage Black? I think that will look terrible, but we sell them, so be my guest.

As for them being a "microbrand" - my understanding is that the current owner's father was a life-long friend of the previous owner, who I think was the founder. When he retired, the current ownership / management team bought him out. I think they're still a very small operation.

Call them a "micro" brand, or "boutique", or "independent" - the semantics don't really matter to me. But I think it's appropriate to compare them to Monta, as an example, all things considered.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah, that's a pretty feature-full watch.
> 
> You know what's the worst thing though?
> Reading the feature list, my gut instinct was going "that seems pretty good for a €1000 watch!". That probably says more about me than the watch, but..
> ...


Yes, some people will always say the price is too much.

Those people aren't worth listening to, generally. Bottom feeders gotta bottom-feed, etc.

Is the Monta Ocean King or Oak & Oscar Humbolt overpriced? People could argue either way. I've some inkling of Monta's costs, which leads me to believe their watches are NOT overpriced, and so I think the Formex stacks up very well by comparison.

But that's just me. I'm not a YouTube comments expert.


----------



## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> NTH has produced 43 different versions of the Subs.
> 
> That's a lot. And it doesn't even include date/no-date options, or DLC versions.
> 
> ...


I was more thinking that you'd make up different dial/bezel colour combos for the one sub,; what didn't sell, you switch around. Stock control excepted it would appear to be simpler than making up a new handset, dial and bezel for one or two looks; and offer more choice for the customer too.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> NTH has produced 43 different versions of the Subs.


Do you have a favourite NTH or L&H watch? Which is your favourite NTH sub? Do you even allow yourself to be undiplomatic and say?
Or which do you wear the most?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaah said:


> I was more thinking that you'd make up different dial/bezel colour combos for the one sub,; what didn't sell, you switch around. Stock control excepted it would appear to be simpler than making up a new handset, dial and bezel for one or two looks; and offer more choice for the customer too.


We've looked at this. I had it in my head that we'd have all the components available in Dan's shop, and offer a "make your own NTH Sub" sort of product on the website, whereby people could choose their dial, hands, bezel insert, and bracelet. We'd tack $100 or $200 onto the standard NTH Subs price, for the added labor involved with managing all the parts inventory, and Dan doing the asembly.

In theory, it sounds like a fantastic idea. But...

1. How many guys are going to pay $100-$200 more for a customized NTH Sub, when 80% of them just want a different bezel insert, which we sell, for $50?

2. Imagine the complexity involved with us trying to manage inventory for all the different dials, handsets, and bezel inserts, many of which differ only slightly, making distinguishing them at a glance difficult.

This isn't a small challenge. It's already becoming somewhat time-consuming for us just to manage the inventory for the bezel inserts and the box sleeves printed with the picture of the watch on them, plus the little silicone smart wallets and plastic cards we send out with every watch.

Could we do it? Yes. Do we WANT to do it? No, I don't think so, not really.

It's not the way my business has been built. Dan doesn't work for me full-time. He has a day-job. I don't want people waiting days on end for Dan to do a custom assembly, nor do I want warranty work or QC work to be delayed, or have that work delay his assembly of someone's order. It's hard enough for us to manage what we're already doing, when Dan's day job can have unpredictable hours, and he's sometimes required to work longer shifts.

It's a strategic decision. Instead of offering a "build your own" sort of service, something I think few people would take advantage of, we've opted instead to make a lot of different versions of the Subs, based on what we think works well, aesthetically, and supplement that by selling bezel inserts, for anyone who can't leave well enough alone.

Formex is a different business. They're doing that work in-house, I assume, and charging a lot more for what they're selling. I guarantee my business is selling a lot more watches, but at much lower prices. That sort of service just doesn't fit into a business like NTH.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Do you have a favourite NTH or L&H watch? Which is your favourite NTH sub? Do you even allow yourself to be undiplomatic and say?
> Or which do you wear the most?


Sentimentally, I'm most fond of the Cerberus and Orthos, within the L&H range. Those were the first and only two I designed completely on my own, from a clean sheet of paper, drawing every line of the case, dial, and hands. For the Orthos, I even created a custom handset design. If I continued producing L&H watches, I intended to make those two the archetype for the brand's design language.

Those were also the first two models to bear case-back designs by Francis Del Mundo, owner of Tangramatic, or "bombfish" as he goes by here on WUS. The Orthos case-back design is my favorite. It speaks to me on so many levels.

Within the NTH range, I'm most proud of the DevilRay, because I think it's my team's best work. It doesn't hurt that I designed the case myself, whereas with the other models, I told Rusty what I wanted, and he drew it. I'd say it's also my favorite design, so far.

But, the Subs are what keep the lights on, and put NTH on the map, and what I end up wearing most often. Rusty really nailed that case design. I'm not sure which version is my favorite, but if I had to choose, I'd say the Barracuda Vintage Black, though the Renegade and Scorpène are also in the running.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> ...I've seen pics of the Barracuda Blue in which* the bezel looked green, and the dial purple*. In others, they're a dead-match.


Aaaaannnnndddd....right on time...



SchlachterSchmidt said:


>


Compare that to this:










Okay, that second pic is under "ideal lighting conditions", but do a Google image search for the Barracuda Blue, and look at how much the colors vary from one image to the next.

It's crazy. When we see all the watches side-by-side, and they're all identical, then we see people post pics online, and we're like, "What the actual f**k?"

And it's always the blues. It never happens with any other colors, just the blues.


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## Aaah (Jul 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> We've looked at this. I had it in my head that we'd have all the components available in Dan's shop, and offer a "make your own NTH Sub" sort of product on the website, whereby people could choose their dial, hands, bezel insert, and bracelet. We'd tack $100 or $200 onto the standard NTH Subs price, for the added labor involved with managing all the parts inventory, and Dan doing the asembly.
> 
> In theory, it sounds like a fantastic idea. But...
> 
> ...


We're still not on the same page. I'll try to illustrate what I had in mind...

You have 500 cases, handsets, movements etc. you get 250 Black dials, 150 white and 100 blue. You get 250 black bezels, 150 blue and 100 red.

You build up 150 black dial, black bezel, and 50 each of all the colour combinations except blue dial, red bezel which quite rightly has none. 8 versions of the same watch. If the black dial with blue bezel isn't shifting, you swap bezels to create combinations that are selling. And next time around run with 7 versions. The customer doesn't configure the watch, you do, then reconfigure to meet demand.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So this showed up today. Check one off of the delivery list.








And no sooner than I had set the time and date and strapped it on I got notification my Swiftsure shipped. It should be here friday.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Does anyone have a Nacken Modern Blue I can borrow? I’m only sort of kidding.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaah said:


> We're still not on the same page. I'll try to illustrate what I had in mind...
> 
> You have 500 cases, handsets, movements etc. you get 250 Black dials, 150 white and 100 blue. You get 250 black bezels, 150 blue and 100 red.
> 
> You build up 150 black dial, black bezel, and 50 each of all the colour combinations except blue dial, red bezel which quite rightly has none. 8 versions of the same watch. If the black dial with blue bezel isn't shifting, you swap bezels to create combinations that are selling. And next time around run with 7 versions. The customer doesn't configure the watch, you do, then reconfigure to meet demand.


Maybe we haven't been on the same page because we started out talking about what Formex is doing, and you asked why NTH hasn't done it. I'm not sure what you just described is what Formex is doing, nor is it something NTH can effectively do, as you described it...

First, Formex - the 4 dials and 4 bezels give us 16 possible combinations, or 32, if you consider with-strap / with-bracelet another option.

That's a large number of variations, but not too crazy. They could possibly be assembling a certain number of each, anticipating what demand will be, or they could be assembling them to order, since they're in "pre-order".

Just to make the math easy, they could make 56 of each dial, and assemble 14 of each dial with each of the 4 bezels. then assemble 7 of each combo on the strap, and the other 7 on the bracelet. That's 224 assembled watches. Not that hard to do or manage, nor finance. If they have a 500-piece MOQ on cases, they still have more than half of all their components left for the future.

But, notice that their retailers don't offer that customization ability. Instead of presenting it as 1 watch with the ability to create 16 (or 32) different versions, they're basically presenting it as 16 (or 32) different versions of the same basic watch.

Isn't that the same thing? Yes, maybe, but also no, in terms of perception. Being able to configure your watch with different options sounds sexier than choosing one watch from 16 or 32 alternatives.

That's not too different than what NTH does, by offering multiple versions of the NTH Subs. The only element missing is the potential "build your own" feature, which allows people to mix-and-match. But what's the point, if 90% of people would choose the configurations we'd have assembled anyway, using common sense?

You may have missed this, but >90% of NTH watches are now sold through retailers. They're not equipped to do assembly-to-order. Offering a "build your own" feature wouldn't work for them, at all. It's easier to just offer them 16 or 32 SKUs, sort of like what NTH does, when we have a release with 6 models, but multiple options leading to 26 different versions.

Even if we only offered that "customization" features through the NTH site, it's not something we can effectively manage and deliver, for reasons I stated earlier.

But, let's say we had a version of the Subs that wasn't selling very well, and as a result, we wanted to re-dial them, or swap out the bezel for a different one. Okay....

1. That doesn't happen when we're only producing 5-25 pieces per SKU, with each release. They all sell well enough that we don't need to do that. Even if it takes a year for a model to sell out, we don't care, because we sold 80%-90% in the first 3 months. It's only those last few pieces left hanging around after that. It's not enough inventory to screw around doing parts swaps. I'm not going to create a big project in order to shift 4 pieces of unsold inventory.

2. Even if they didn't sell well enough, and we did see value in it - all the inventory is dispersed around the world at that point. I'd have to have them ship it all back to us, pay Dan to do partial dis-assembly and re-assembly, then ship it all back. Even the little bit of inventory I still have available through the NTH site - it's not in Dan's shop, it's in our warehouse, 100 miles away. We'd need to pay to have it shipped back to us.

If a retailer can't sell the watches they bought, I'll buy them back, and re-sell them to another retailer who can, or better yet, just have retailer A buy that inventory from retailer B, and save myself the money on shipping.

3. I have MOQs to think about. Just take the dials as an example. Whatever we make, we have to make 50. Should I _ONLY_ make 50? If so, how many do I have assembled into watches, and how many do I have shipped here as loose components? If I have 25 assembled, and 10 shipped here, that leaves me with just 15 left for assembly by my vendor, not enough to assemble another 25. If I want 10 dials shipped to me loose, I should order 60, which increases my parts cost by 20%.

Now multiply that by handsets, and bezel inserts - 20% extra on every part, whether we'll ever need them or not. We have to buy them, receive them, inspect them, and store them, while waiting on someone to buy them, so we can use them.

This is a solution in need of a problem, and it's a problem I don't have.


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Hey Doc,
I tried to get some pics of the Nacken while freediving today. There's a bit of a learning curve to taking a good watch pic underwater, solo, with a GoPro.

These were my favorites of the bunch. I'll stick the rest in your thread on the dive forum.

I'm stoked I caught this shark on camera, and so bummed I wasn't taking a watch picture at the time. This little guy was in and out of the frame in about 3 seconds, and caught me by surprise.


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

There was a surprising amount of surge given how small the surf was, and the visibility kinda sucked. I'll keep trying, and see if I can find a way to get a pic with the watch further out. I have short little t-rex arms LOL.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> We sell bezel inserts.


Do you? According to your web site, you stopped selling them on July 17. And only two are shown on the available list: plain steel with no lume, and burgundy.









One-off Replacement Bezel Inserts for NTH Subs


**17 JULY 2020 - We have temporarily stopped replacement insert sales so we can update inventory. Please use the "Notify Me" button to be notified when our inventory count is complete. We expect to be done before the end of July.**Bezel inserts are not returnable. All sales final. Please choose...




nthwatches.com


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avo said:


> Do you? According to your web site, you stopped selling them on July 17. And only two are shown on the available list: plain steel with no lume, and burgundy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oof, burn.

That is quite a long cycle count there, Doc.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> If they're discounting the bezel height, that seems really odd. The least-odd explanation I can come up with is they're discounting the portion of the thickness which comes from the crystal and / or case-back.
> 
> I don't think the quick-release is entirely pointless. I've struggled to get some end-links re-attached to some cases, and my OCD habit of trimming my fingernails super-short makes the pull-knob type of quick release unusable for me. What they have there looks pretty genius.
> 
> ...


I feel guilty even picking the tiny nit, especially when I'm definitely not in the price point.

I do hate spring bars, enough to remove screws on the first link available, to avoid the damn things if I need to open the case back. I'm only strap swapping on watches that don't have bracelets. I don't think I even own any straps with the quick change bars... I'd bet that if I tried the Formex gizmo, there would be a few kilos of watches emigrating from my hoard...

I hope they sell like they should.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Do you? According to your web site, you stopped selling them on July 17. And only two are shown on the available list: plain steel with no lume, and burgundy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





TheBearded said:


> Oof, burn.
> 
> That is quite a long cycle count there, Doc.


The inserts are for sale, notwithstanding that text, which is now removed. We completed our inventory count prior to the end of July, just as we said.

Forgive me for forgetting to go back and remove that text. That mistake doesn't appear to have stopped the 2 dozen people who bought inserts since then.

Those two inserts are on the "one-off" page, and there are only two versions available, but that's not the main page for replacement inserts, this is - Replacement Bezel Insert for NTH Subs

And all but 3 versions are currently available.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Those two inserts are on the "one-off" page, and there are only two versions available, but that's not the main page for replacement inserts, this is - Replacement Bezel Insert for NTH Subs


Well what you call the "one-off" page is the only one I find by going to the "explore" menu on the main page, and then clicking on "accessories and parts". I had no idea there was another page (and still have no idea how I'm supposed to find it).


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avo said:


> Well what you call the "one-off" page is the only one I find by going to the "explore" menu on the main page, and then clicking on "accessories and parts". I had no idea there was another page (and still have no idea how I'm supposed to find it).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Well what you call the "one-off" page is the only one I find by going to the "explore" menu on the main page, and then clicking on "accessories and parts". I had no idea there was another page (and still have no idea how I'm supposed to find it).


I mean...look down here, at the screen shot below. Middle of the page, picture of one of the Subs, at least 50 people have found it. You're the first person to indicate any difficulty finding it.

Hypothetically / worst case scenario - if someone was looking for it, and couldn't find it, they could email us to ask for one. That's what people did before we added them to the site.

The only reason we added that "one-off" page is because we had some extra / reject bezel inserts, which are different than the ones used on the Subs. It seemed better to separate them, to avoid confusion, or people mistakenly ordering the wrong insert, because they were only looking at the pictures.



TheBearded said:


>


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I feel guilty even picking the tiny nit, especially when I'm definitely not in the price point.
> 
> I do hate spring bars, enough to remove screws on the first link available, to avoid the damn things if I need to open the case back. I'm only strap swapping on watches that don't have bracelets. I don't think I even own any straps with the quick change bars... I'd bet that if I tried the Formex gizmo, there would be a few kilos of watches emigrating from my hoard...
> 
> ...


I don't own any straps with quick-release bars either. I think I've always worried about them possibly being weaker than regular spring-bars, or more prone to breaking, as they're more complicated.

Plus, I don't wear many watches on straps, and what few I do, they're not straps made for quick-release bars. They're mostly NATO's, which render those bars pointless, or an aftermarket rubber strap. I haven't worn a leather strap in at least 5-6 years.

I think it's legit to pick nits, especially in that $1500-$2000 range. I think the Reef is a nice watch, and I like the dial/hands. I'm not overly crazy about the case design. It's not "bad", just not a style I really like.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting news from Oris, another new in-house calibre, this time an automatic, but...shocker...it's...wait for it...

UNIDIRECTIONAL WINDING!!!









The New Oris Calibre 400 Manufacture Movement Explained


Oris flexes its muscles with a new automatic movement with 5-day power reserve, 10-year warranty and anti-magnetism. Meet the new Oris Calibre 400.




monochrome-watches.com





Maybe Miyota's been on to something...

"Oris also revisited the oscillating mass (or rotor) that generates the power for the mainsprings. Conventional rotors sit on a ball-bearing system and swing in both directions. Fischli's team devised a more reliable system based on a low-friction, slide-bearing system that only winds in one direction, which in turn is less complex and reduces wear and tear over the long run."


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Aaaaannnnndddd....right on time...
> 
> Compare that to this:
> 
> ...


That looks amazing there! That blue is really singing.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't own any straps with quick-release bars either. I think I've always worried about them possibly being weaker than regular spring-bars, or more prone to breaking, as they're more complicated.
> 
> Plus, I don't wear many watches on straps, and what few I do, they're not straps made for quick-release bars. They're mostly NATO's, which render those bars pointless, or an aftermarket rubber strap. I haven't worn a leather strap in at least 5-6 years.
> 
> I think it's legit to pick nits, especially in that $1500-$2000 range. I think the Reef is a nice watch, and I like the dial/hands. I'm not overly crazy about the case design. It's not "bad", just not a style I really like.


I first read "quick release bras" and i was on your website searching for an hour to no "a-Vail"! Thanks for wasting my time.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Interesting news from Oris, another new in-house calibre, this time an automatic, but...shocker...it's...wait for it...
> 
> UNIDIRECTIONAL WINDING!!!
> 
> ...


You know how it goes, if it's Swiss, it must be good.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Interesting news from Oris, another new in-house calibre, this time an automatic, but...shocker...it's...wait for it...
> 
> UNIDIRECTIONAL WINDING!!!
> 
> ...


Hang on. So they've taken the bearing out. Gone back to iron age technology, because let's be honest a slide bearing is basically the same as an axle and bracket on a cart. But added to it one of the those one direction ratchets, that you see on watch movements. And so proclaimed amazing advancement. Or am I being cynical?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Interesting news from Oris, another new in-house calibre, this time an automatic, but...shocker...it's...wait for it...
> 
> UNIDIRECTIONAL WINDING!!!
> 
> ...


That's cool Oris has never really pushed the needle for me they are like vanilla ice cream, it's good I like it I just don't order it much.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

catsteeth said:


> Hang on. So they've taken the bearing out. Gone back to iron age technology, because let's be honest a slide bearing is basically the same as an axle and brace on a cart. But added to it one of the those one direction ratchets, that you see on watch movements. And so proclaimed amazing advancement. Or am I being cynical?


Slide bearings are all about the materials used. The jewels in a watch movement are nothing other than slide bearings, which are very wear resistant due to the hardness of the material.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I mean...look down here, at the screen shot below. Middle of the page, picture of one of the Subs, at least 50 people have found it. You're the first person to indicate any difficulty finding it.


Doc, you have NO IDEA how many people come to your page looking for a bezel insert, see a bezel insert graphic, click on that, discover only a couple for sale, and then give up. That's exactly what I did a month or so ago, when I was thinking about buying one of your subs & swapping out the bezel. I honestly thought you had sold out of the bezels.

To find the correct link, I have to read through them all: the graphics are not sufficient, since the correct bezel link is hidden under a picture of a watch.

If you truly do not understand why this is bad design that is costing you sales, well, I just don't know what to say. Horse to water and all that.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> "Oris also revisited the oscillating mass (or rotor) that generates the power for the mainsprings. Conventional rotors sit on a ball-bearing system and swing in both directions. Fischli's team devised a more reliable system based on a low-friction, slide-bearing system that only winds in one direction, which in turn is less complex and reduces wear and tear over the long run."


I wonder if it only spins in one direction, or if it freewheels in the opposite-of-winding direction, like Miyotas do?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Avo said:


> Doc, you have NO IDEA how many people come to your page looking for a bezel insert, see a bezel insert graphic, click on that, discover only a couple for sale, and then give up. That's exactly what I did a month or so ago, when I was thinking about buying one of your subs & swapping out the bezel. I honestly thought you had sold out of the bezels.
> 
> To find the correct link, I have to read through them all: the graphics are not sufficient, since the correct bezel link is hidden under a picture of a watch.
> 
> If you truly do not understand why this is bad design that is costing you sales, well, I just don't know what to say. Horse to water and all that.


I've ordered a few different bezel inserts. Never had a difficult time finding them. Maybe you are overthinking this?:

Click on Accessories. Scroll down. I see three entries for bezel inserts...

OK, I mean, maybe I don't read, only look at the pretty pix, and am disappointed to see only a few choices because I chose the one-off selection, but if I'm not seeing what I want - and really, I don't think anyone is looking who does not have a clue as to what the are looking for - I might back out and actually read the descriptions.

Don't need a bezel for a Lew & Huey Orthos, because I want inserts for a NTH Sub. Wait, there it is! Reading left to right, it's actually the first entry! OMG, how could I be so dense! Click on it, and - lo! - there they are!

The only confusing thing to me, and it's not been problem enough that I actually ordered the wrong thing in two different orders for three different bezel inserts, is that you can scroll through the pix of Subs to look at the different bezels, but the order panel doesn't update to the model you might be looking at. And still, I managed to order the correct bezels.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I first read "quick release bras" and i was on your website searching for an hour to no "a-Vail"! Thanks for wasting my time.


Uhm...you're welcome?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Hang on. So they've taken the bearing out. Gone back to iron age technology, because let's be honest a slide bearing is basically the same as an axle and bracket on a cart. But added to it one of the those one direction ratchets, that you see on watch movements. And so proclaimed amazing advancement. Or am I being cynical?


Maybe cynical. Maybe just British.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Doc, you have NO IDEA how many people come to your page looking for a bezel insert, see a bezel insert graphic, click on that, discover only a couple for sale, and then give up. That's exactly what I did a month or so ago, when I was thinking about buying one of your subs & swapping out the bezel. I honestly thought you had sold out of the bezels.
> 
> To find the correct link, I have to read through them all: the graphics are not sufficient, since the correct bezel link is hidden under a picture of a watch.
> 
> If you truly do not understand why this is bad design that is costing you sales, well, I just don't know what to say. Horse to water and all that.


Follow my logic here...

Hypothetically, if we removed the listing for the one-off bezels, that image wouldn't be there to distract you. Okay, I get that, but...

As you stated earlier, you found your way to that page thusly: Explore=>Accessories & Parts=> whereby you found yourself on a page with bracelets, straps, extra links, clasps, etc. And, two pictures of watches, the NTH Subs, and the Orthos.

Why would there be two watches for sale in the Accessories/Parts section? If someone looking for a bezel insert for either the NTH Subs or the L&H Orthos found their way to that Accessories & Parts page, wouldn't the two big images of the watches - THE VERY SAME ONES FOR WHICH SOMEONE WOULD BE LOOKING FOR AN INSERT TO FIT - draw their attention?

Those one-off bezels were just added when we did the inventory in July. We've been selling inserts since May. Between May and July, no one seemed to have any trouble finding the inserts, despite the fact that there were no pictures of inserts on that page, just the two pics of the watches - the NTH Sub, and the Orthos.

Right under the pics, there's a product name - "REPLACEMENT BEZEL INSERT FOR NTH SUBS" (or Lew & Huey Orthos). There's even text in the upper left corner of the image of the Sub, which might draw your eye, and if it did, it might clue someone in to the fact that that's the page for the inserts.

I mean...we sold dozens of inserts before we added that one-off insert product. No one had trouble finding the product page for the inserts, as far as I can tell, and judging by how few people emailed us to ask, "do you sell inserts?"

If anyone had trouble finding them, they could email us or contact us through the contact page. Even after we added that image for the one-off inserts, we've sold plenty of the regular inserts. Even when the product pages said we weren't selling them, because we were doing inventory counts, long after the counts were done and we WERE selling them, people bought plenty of them.

We used to have people who somehow managed to find a product we thought we had hidden on the site. Something we did NOT want people to see or find, because it wasn't for sale yet. But people found it. People who really want something will take a few seconds to look for it. If someone gives up that easily...I can't help them.

There's only so much idiot-proofing we can do. I've been down this road before. We've gotten emails from people asking questions that I know were answered on the very page they looked at on the site, before they emailed us.

Sometimes, people overlook something, even when it's as obvious as we can possibly make it. That's why we have a customer support email address and a contact form on the website.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I wonder if it only spins in one direction, or if it freewheels in the opposite-of-winding direction, like Miyotas do?


I think it must free-wheel in in the non-winding direction. Think about it. You're swinging your arm as you're walking. If it couldn't swing in the opposite direction, it could potentially get stuck, and stop winding.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I think it must free-wheel in in the non-winding direction. Think about it. You're swinging your arm as you're walking. If it couldn't swing in the opposite direction, it could potentially get stuck, and stop winding.


Asking because some people seem to find the freewheeling of Miyota movements distracting, and if that's what Oris is doing, it's hardly revolutionary. The same people who complain about it in a pedestrian commodity movement will absolutely flip lids about a proprietary, in-house movement that sounds like a 8215. Then again, maybe the plain bearing has something to do with mitigating noise? Was thinking maybe something limiting counter-rotation, more a silent roller-clutch than a ratchet. Guess we'll find out, eventually.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> The only confusing thing to me, and it's not been problem enough that I actually ordered the wrong thing in two different orders for three different bezel inserts, is that you can scroll through the pix of Subs to look at the different bezels, but the order panel doesn't update to the model you might be looking at. And still, I managed to order the correct bezels.


Ugh. Had a reply all typed out, and the forum software juked on me...

Anyhoo...

This is something we've had to figure out.

When we have a product with multiple options, each variation is a unique SKU, and when we have more than one SKU sold through a single product page, we try to connect an image to that SKU.

So, when you select your options from the drop-down menu, the image will automatically flip to the associated picture, like so:










Imagine if we created a different product page for each one of those bezels. Besides the insane amount of extra work involved, imagine trying to find the one bezel you want from the category page (Accessories & Parts). For the sake of keeping the category page uncluttered, and making it easier to find what you want, we consolidate SKUs onto pages, and use product options instead.

But, it only works one way - first you select your option(s), and the image updates. The options don't change when you're scrolling through the images, or clicking around on them, which makes sense, because we want people to be able to scroll through or click around.

I.e. - if you click on the image of the Barracuda Brown, the drop-down options don't change:










I know Watch Gauge and some other stores' sites will have unique pages for each version. So, the Skipjack With Date is a page, and the Skipjack No date is a different page. That makes it harder for someone to order the wrong version by accident (maybe?), but it also clutters up the site, especially when a page has a $hlt-ton of SKUs. Some sites have a limit on how many products can be displayed on a category page, so you have to scroll through pages, which I think is a nightmare. Serious Watches has that.

For the NTH site, we've opted to keep the category pages uncluttered, and use product options, for the most part. I created separate pages for the DLC versions of the 2K1s, because there were only 5 basic designs. Having 7 products on that page wasn't going to confuse anyone, and makes the DLC versions easier to find.

But for the upcoming Subs, there will be one page, with options for DLC or stainless, BOR or Oyster, and Date/No-date.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Asking because some people seem to find the freewheeling of Miyota movements distracting, and if that's what Oris is doing, it's hardly revolutionary. The same people who complain about it in a pedestrian commodity movement will absolutely flip lids about a proprietary, in-house movement that sounds like a 8215. Then again, maybe the plain bearing has something to do with mitigating noise? Was thinking maybe something limiting counter-rotation, more a silent roller-clutch than a ratchet. Guess we'll find out, eventually.


I don't mean to sound dismissive of anyone who claims they can hear their Miyota rotor spinning, and it's distracting.

That said - I've owned dozens of watches with that movement in them, and inspected a few thousand more. According to every hearing test I've ever had done, I have perfect hearing. I've never once noticed the sound of my rotor spinning when I wasn't holding a watch to my ear, in order to make sure the rotor could in fact spin freely, and wasn't scraping against the case-back.

Just my observation, but a lot of folks think that "Swiss" = "Correct", in all things. That's patently absurd, but it's how people think, and proof of the power of marketing. So, if the ETA 2824-2 is bi-directional, that's "right", and the Miyota is "cheap", somehow, for only spinning in one direction. Don't point out that the valjoux 7750 is unidirectional, or you'll be burned at the stake.

I'm pragmatic. What works, works. What doesn't, doesn't. The Miyota's unidirectional winding inarguably makes it a thinner movement, which I like. I could say it's also less complex and reduces wear and tear over the long run. But if I said that, people would scoff, because of course I'm just defending my decision to use the Miyota.

Luckily, I don't have to say it - ORIS said it for me. That was a direct quote from the article about their new movement. Go tell Oris bidirectional is better.

"But, but, but - it's less efficient!"

Bullspit. Prove it. I've got a metric $hlt-ton of actual data, using large sample sizes, and I _KNOW_ the Miyota is amazingly efficient.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pics happen...

The beveled rehaut on the Threshers is really hard to make out...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Natural light shots from Keil...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Maybe cynical. Maybe just British.


Lol..
Yeah, I just totally can't help myself.

I'm sure it's all supremely tight tolerances and weapons grade materials.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

2k1 side profile shots are cool. Bezel and crown guards are interesting. I’ll take one in size M, please. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I’m a believer - the rotor noise thing is real. Barely, or not at all noticeable in most of my Subs. But it is comically prominent in one of them. I can hear, feel, and see it. Maybe the noise and vibration is tricking me. But I could swear that sometimes I can see the watch quivering on my wrist.

If I had my druthers, I might dial that one back a touch. But even that extreme case doesn’t bother me. It’s a Tikuna after all. A little goofiness is very on brand for it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> I'll take one in size M, please.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So you want a 40mm sub with a thinner bezel, and a crown guard?



3WR said:


> I'm a believer - the rotor noise thing is real. Barely, or not at all noticeable in most of my Subs. But it is comically prominent in one of them. I can hear, feel, and see it. Maybe the noise and vibration is tricking me. But I could swear that sometimes I can see the watch quivering on my wrist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll never forget the first time I set my Tikuna down on the glass top of my watch box, the glass acted like a mini amplifier. I freaked out. WTF is that noise? Its brand new!

Same thing when I first saw and even slightly felt it wobbling on my wrist after a lil' flick.

But damn the haters. The free spin sound doesn't bother me at all when I hear it, and the wobble is a funny quirk to me.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Like I said, if it's Swiss, it must be good. Now that Oris is doing it, everyone will start saying that _actually one direction winding / freespinning is the better option because Swiss, see_?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The whole Swiss = Best thing aside, it sounds like Oris really put some work into the new movement. 

5 day/120hr PR 
10s deviation after exposure to 2250 gauss. Which blows ISO 764 out of the water. 
10 year warranty and 10 year service intervals.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> The whole Swiss = Best thing aside, it sounds like Oris really put some work into the new movement.
> 
> 5 day/120hr PR
> 10s deviation after exposure to 2250 gauss. Which blows ISO 764 out of the water.
> 10 year warranty and 10 year service intervals.


It does seem like Oris came up with something cutting-edge. My hat's off to them.

And it's only for their "mid-range" models, apparently. Imagine what they might come up with for their high-end models.

Seems like using silicon instead of ferrous metals is the wave of the future.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First review of the 2K1's is up - Review: NTH submerges 2K1 line deep in details


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Imagine me clapping


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random tidbit, for whatever it's worth...

Some of you guys have seen my comments, over the last few years, saying labor rates in Asia are going up quickly, and it's having an effect on brands' costs, as well as their prices.

So...I had to re-order the tropic-style rubber straps for the new Antilles and Azores last week. And, of course, they hit me with a price increase. I was expecting it, since my last order was in November 2016.

How much of an increase? 15%. Meanwhile, the cumulative inflation rate over the last 4 years is only 8.4%. They damn-near doubled the rate of inflation with their cost increase.

No, it's not a big cost in the greater scheme of things. It's just a rubber strap. As a percentage of the total cost of the watch, it's not a huge increase. But it's a thin-slice of what we're seeing across the board. All the vendors are raising their costs, on everything, and it seems to be happening at a rate that outpaces inflation. Don't even get me started on the insane shipping increases we've seen this year.

That 8.4%, coincidentally, is almost exactly (though slightly higher than) the rate at which we increased the Subs' prices, not taking into account the improvements we made over that time, like the improved bracelet and clasp, the increased regulation, the tighter QC standards, etc, or the cost increases that came with them.

I know some folks get their shorts in a wad when they see a brand increasing its prices, and some of those folks feel the Subs don't offer the same value they once did, but the fact is that they're a better value now than they've ever been, considering the cost increases we've had.

Inflation calculator, for anyone interested in challenging - US Inflation Calculator

NTH Subs' retail prices in 2016 were $600 / $625, depending on the version. Today, those versions are $650 / $675.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So I'm really the first from the thread to get one of these?






























Gotta say. Bravo, Doc.

The applied indices/arabics really pop out off of the dial. The rehaut adds some great depth as well. Bezel action is just as good as I expected, and it's super easy to grip. The extra definition added to the end links is superb and there literally zero wiggle at the lugs.

I originally thought I'd hate the 22-18mm taper on the bracelet, but I was wrong. Incredibly comfortable. Sure, I'd prefer a 22-20, but tbh, I cant complain one iota about the bracelet.

Happy customer all in all. Bravo.

Sometime in the near future, I forsee some strap swapping. I think my orange zuludiver and the "dazzle" camo nato will look pretty killer on this.

Edit: 
It looks bada$$ on orange rubber...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> So I'm really the first from the thread to get one of these?
> 
> Gotta say. Bravo, Doc.
> 
> ...


You do appear to be the first to post one in this thread.

Sorry there's no prize for that.

Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

I'm very pleased with how they turned out, considering what we didn't do...

We were anticipating delivery of the original, v.1 DevilRays in 2018 when I sat down with someone to take a hard look at my business, and all the things that were causing me aggravation. A lot of it came down to the design to delivery process, particularly the surprises we get going from design to prototypes, then prototypes to production.

We decided to fix all that was wrong in that process, so we could skip prototypes, and go right from design to production.

Of course, that v.1 DevilRay was the last clean-sheet design we produced - until the 2K1's, which mark a new milestone for my business - the first clean-sheet design to go from design to delivery without prototyping.

I've been holding my breath for months, praying there wouldn't be any surprises on delivery. But the results prove we can now trust the process. The 2K1's are exactly what we intended them to be, no surprises.

It's a new day, gentlemen. We've officially achieved virtual prototyping.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Same thing when I first saw and even slightly felt it wobbling on my wrist after a lil' flick.
> 
> But damn the haters. The free spin sound doesn't bother me at all when I hear it, and the wobble is a funny quirk to me.


I can hear it from about a foot away in otherwise silent conditions, if I'm listening for it.

I kinda like it. When I wear my NTH for a day or two and then swap out to something with bi-directional winding, I actually miss it.

Design and fit are way more important to me than movement, so if a watch I like happens to have a Miyota, it's now a known quantity, and a bonus in my mind. I actually prefer the 9015 to a Swiss movement ETA 2824 or.Selitta SW200. They usually show up in less expensive watches of comparable or better quality, with better fit (thinner)... and I'm not stressing out about the future need for service.

Uni-directional auto-winding? Pff, not even an issue...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

After several months of goofing off, it was time to go back to work...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Family photos


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re; Miyota movement noise.*

You must all live in temples atop Himalayan mountains, in a world of serenity and bliss. My house is so bloody noisy I can't hardly hear my dog barking, let alone the gentle ticking of a bloody watch movement.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> *Re; Miyota movement noise.*
> 
> You must all live in temples atop Himalayan mountains, in a world of serenity and bliss. My house is so bloody noisy I can't hardly hear my dog barking, let alone the gentle ticking of a bloody watch movement.


Its not the ticking we're talking about my man. Its the free spin of the rotor.

Whiiiiiiiiizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Ticking / rotors / bracelets falling off... I wouldn't hear any of it.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Family photos
> View attachment 15505703
> 
> View attachment 15505706
> View attachment 15505707


I don't own an NTH yet. But if I was to buy one it'd probs be a Cali, or the Tikuna ... 🙂


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

catsteeth said:


> I don't own an NTH yet. But if I was to buy one it'd probs be a Cali, or the Tikuna ... 🙂


I've got the rootbeer Barracuda and the Amphion Commando. The Commando on a grey NATO is a very, very cool military-style watch. The Barracuda is just fun - if either fell under the gaze of my one-in and one-out policy though, it would probably be the Amphion. Why? Simply because I've got nothing else like the 'cuda in my collection, it really does have a lot of character.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> I don't own an NTH yet. But if I was to buy one it'd probs be a Cali, or the Tikuna ... ?


I _should_ have another Nazario coming in in the near future if I can believe John over at Watch Gauge. One of the DLC Vino Rossos. Im in the "love" camp of the Cali dial.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> I don't own an NTH yet. But if I was to buy one it'd probs be a Cali, or the Tikuna ...


Ahh Vail's fines work the tikuna is a very nice dial

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

V.2 DR on Bonetto strap in front of three green beans that failed to pass final QC...

Also a pic of the girlie who visited my office today...


















Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of pooches, not sure I told y'all, but we got another one about a month ago, from a local rescue org...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

You really should re-name that dog "Sparky"...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> You really should re-name that dog "Sparky"...


His name is Nash.

Nash Vail.

Get it?

(It's a play on words...)

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> His name is Nash.
> 
> Nash Vail.
> 
> ...


 ?‍♂

?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So....stuff...

The Amphion Vintage Gilt is now sold out. You know the deal - inventory numbers for all the remaining Subs versions are around 5 pieces, worldwide, on average. A good number of those are down to just 1 or 2 pieces. If you're on the fence, don't sit there too much longer. 

We're taking delivery of the next release of 40mm Subs now. They'll hopefully go on sale within the next 2 weeks. It looks like we'll have very few, if any available from the NTH Website. So if you want one, better get with your closest NTH retailer, and ask to be put on their wait-list.

We've got another release of 40mm Subs planned for December/January. After that, I'm thinking about making a v.2, modeled after the 2K1's case, but with the 40's dimensions, more or less.

I'm also thinking about retiring all but the top 10-12 Subs versions, and supplementing those with the occasional new design going forward. Depending on the popularity of each version, I'm projecting annual production numbers to be between 25 and 200 pieces, per version, on average. 

But some versions will end up only being produced about once every 18 - 24 months, or just one more time, then never again. So, we'll keep trying to avoid over-production of anything.

2K1 samples have been sent out to bloggers and YT reviewers worldwide. They all work at their own pace, but expect to see those reviews coming soon, and to continue over the next 2-3 months.

So far, all the feedback we've heard is that they don't wear as large as their dimensions would suggest, which I take as a compliment, since ergonomic considerations are always a part of the design process. 

Other than that, those who've gotten them really seem to like them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First unboxing video of the Swiftsure from Random Rob...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaannnndddd...right on cue...










I mean...seriously, bro? How did we get here?










This is why I try to never read the comments...


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Aaaannnndddd...right on cue...
> 
> View attachment 15511269
> 
> ...


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

I discovered Nth about a month ago after reading this thread.
The positive comments made me want to check one out so I picked up this Nacken. Boy was it a mistake.... my poor other watches went weeks without being so much as looked at. The only trouble is I can't match the blue with everything, so I'm now selling some watches out of my collection to make room for a Nth Dolphin Ice.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> View attachment 15511342


Legit LQTM...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> I discovered Nth about a month ago after reading this thread.
> The positive comments made me want to check one out so I picked up this Nacken. Boy was it a mistake.... my poor other watches went weeks without being so much as looked at. The only trouble is I can't match the blue with everything, so I'm now selling some watches out of my collection to make room for a Nth Dolphin Ice.
> 
> View attachment 15511355


That's how we get ya...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> so I'm now selling some watches out of my collection to make room for a Nth Dolphin Ice.


On the real though...(and everyone wait for it)...

There are only TWO (2) Dolphin Ice left in the world, both no-dates. One's at WatchGauge. The other's at Serious.

We made 100 - 50 date / 50 no-date. There are no more dials sitting on the shelf, staring at me, tempting me to make more. We'll probably never make more.

Links -









NTH Dolphin Ice - No Date


Don't think of it as retro. The NTH Subs are our tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period. Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic, rugged style...




watchgauge.com













NTH Dolphin Ice No Date


The NTH Dolphin Ice No Date is a high quality diving watch. The technical aspects are very impressive: double domed sapphire glass with an AR coating, 300m (30ATM) water resistance, a 120 click uni-directional bezel and of course a great Made in Japan automatic movement, the Miyota. cal. 9015...




www.seriouswatches.com





Co-stan-za...


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> We made 100 - 50 date / 50 no-date. There are no more dials sitting on the shelf, staring at me, tempting me to make more. We'll probably never make more.


wow I had no idea they were that rare. This definitely has increased my urgency in getting one, thank you for the heads up!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> wow I had no idea they were that rare. This definitely has increased my urgency in getting one, thank you for the heads up!


No worries, my friend.

That's why I do it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I'm kinda bored. So heres a lume shot.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

seatega said:


> I discovered Nth about a month ago after reading this thread.
> The positive comments made me want to check one out so I picked up this Nacken. Boy was it a mistake.... my poor other watches went weeks without being so much as looked at. The only trouble is I can't match the blue with everything, so I'm now selling some watches out of my collection to make room for a Nth Dolphin Ice.
> 
> View attachment 15511355


See... that blue looks great.

I just can't figure out the blue. It's an enigma.


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## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

seatega said:


> I discovered Nth about a month ago after reading this thread.
> The positive comments made me want to check one out so I picked up this Nacken. Boy was it a mistake.... my poor other watches went weeks without being so much as looked at. The only trouble is I can't match the blue with everything, so I'm now selling some watches out of my collection to make room for a Nth Dolphin Ice.


This is exactly what happened to me... ended up buying two subs within two months. Can't say I'm upset about it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> See... that blue looks great.
> 
> I just can't figure out the blue. It's an enigma.


I don't know if you're serious or joking, but, for whatever it's worth...

Aaron chose the dial color for that one, and he has a habit of selecting very low-saturation (i.e, not very vibrant) colors, compared to the colors I typically choose, which are usually high-saturation.

Depending on how well your eyes detect color, you could be forgiven for thinking that dial is just dark gray. The blue tends to become more apparent as the light hitting the dial increases.

I'm thinking about changing the dial color to the same one we used on the Odin Blue. That blue had a similar ratio of green-to-red in it, but it was much more saturated, so the "blueness" of it is much more obvious. It was definitely a closer, if not perfect match to the bezel insert, which has a tendency to show more teal-green tones when the light reflects off it.

Closest apples-to-apples comparison I could find, two images I believe were taken with the same camera, with the same lighting...


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Any idea when we might see some pics of the Barracuda Polar White? Just completing the purchase of my pre order, but eager to see some actual pics.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't know if you're serious or joking, but, for whatever it's worth...
> 
> Aaron chose the dial color for that one, and he has a habit of selecting very low-saturation (i.e, not very vibrant) colors, compared to the colors I typically choose, which are usually high-saturation.
> 
> ...


I am seriously about the blues throwing me off, but not the dial.

I actually LOVE the dial color of the blue Nacken. That deep, almost grey blue is absolutely gorgeous. I wish _more_ makers would do flat, non-sunburst, deep blues instead of the constant swarm of sunburst, almost-purpley stuff or the lighter blues.

It's the bezel color that throws me. In your photo and the one I quoted, I love it.

In so many other photos it looks almost teal.

Love these:


























I don't like these:


























I love and hate the same watch in photos.

Honestly I'd so much prefer you went the other way and matched the bezel to the color of the dial.

In the end, I went with black. Which I have no complaints about!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pablo.Flox said:


> Any idea when we might see some pics of the Barracuda Polar White? Just completing the purchase of my pre order, but eager to see some actual pics.


As soon as we have them. They're not delivered to us yet, but we'll hopefully get them early next week.

If it's the colors you want to know about, they're the exact same colors used on the white Swiftsure.

Same bezel coloring, same lume, same white, same orange, etc.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I am seriously about the blues throwing me off, but not the dial.
> 
> I actually LOVE the dial color of the blue Nacken. That deep, almost grey blue is absolutely gorgeous. I wish _more_ makers would do flat, non-sunburst, deep blues instead of the constant swarm of sunburst, almost-purpley stuff or the lighter blues.
> 
> ...


Yeeeahhhhh...

Unfortunately, what you'd like me to do isn't really possible.

The bezels are PVD coated. The PVD color choices are very limited. Our supplier only has two blues, which may as well just be one blue, since they're virtually identical.

The appearance can vary widely based on lighting conditions and the camera used. That blue bezel can look dark blue, light blue, or greenish-blue-teal, depending on the image. In real life, I think they vary less when seen in person, and the greenish hues aren't nearly as noticeable.

So, matching the dial color to the bezel color is always a challenge, since the PVD supplier has their own made-up colors, which don't correspond to any Pantone colors, which is what we have to specify for the dial. The Odin Blue's color is the closest I think we've gotten to getting a perfect match.

If it helps, these are the actual Pantone colors, in swatches, without any interference from light or cameras.










Preferences are subjective, of course, but there's no question that the Odin's color more closely matches the bezel than the Näcken's.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Video look at the 2K1's from Kaj at Serious...


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## Widthshelter (Oct 12, 2020)

theswervyn said:


> This is exactly what happened to me... ended up buying two subs within two months. Can't say I'm upset about it.


That makes three of us. I picked up the Amphion Vintage Gilt from John at WatchGauge then quickly scooped up a Nacken Modern Blue - both this month. These watches are fantastic!

I want a Polar White Barracuda but it seems demand is outpacing supply for this run.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yeeeahhhhh...
> 
> Unfortunately, what you'd like me to do isn't really possible.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think that you had mentioned that a long while back. The color limitations of the PVD, I mean.

The "in real life" thing, the "varying based on lighting conditions" thing that's tough. But I'm glad to hear that the greenish hues are less noticeable. That does help push me that direction!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Widthshelter said:


> That makes three of us. I picked up the Amphion Vintage Gilt from John at WatchGauge then quickly scooped up a Nacken Modern Blue - both this month. These watches are fantastic!
> 
> I want a Polar White Barracuda but it seems demand is outpacing supply for this run.


We'll make more next year, I'm sure.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> We'll make more next year, I'm sure.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I'm anxious to see if/when/how the v2 subs work out utilizing some of the design cues from the 2K1s. I also find myself wondering what kind of dial designs you and Rusty have up your sleeve.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'm anxious to see if/when/how the v2 subs work out utilizing some of the design cues from the 2K1s. I also find myself wondering what kind of dial designs you and Rusty have up your sleeve.


Technically, with dials, it would be me and Aaron.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Technically, with dials, it would be me and Aaron.


Tikcuda came to work with me today. Inside a prototype 48,000lb Blast Resistant Building.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

..so that makes four of us then. I picked up my AVG and Kiger within a month as well. I was hesitating for some time because I couldn't decide which I wanted more. Additionally, on paper they are very similar with sword hands and a strong vintage vibe. In the metal, they are very different though. I went with the AVG first, because of the gilt dial and didn't take if off my wrist for a good two weeks. And then I bought the Kiger as well. I do not regret my decision.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Tikcuda came to work with me today. Inside a prototype 48,000lb Blast Resistant Building.
> View attachment 15513957


How the hell do they know the building ways 48,000 pounds?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What has two thumbs and just got told the Barracuda Polar White will be delayed a week?

THIS GUY!!!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> How the hell do they know the building ways 48,000 pounds?


The crane operator. Yup.

Fun fact, the engineers not only botched the weight calculation by 4500lbs, they also screwed the center of gravity by about 8ft. now 8ft might not sound like much... But when you're trying to lift something that heavy safely and "quickly", you need that CG to be dead nuts on. What should've been a maybe 1.5hr crane operation turned into 4.5hrs of trig and maneuvering a giant steel box. Three crane repositionings and a little assist from our _massive_ forklift.

What I was in in that photo is technically the second story. When this thing is done it'll be lifted onto another massive truck, and hauled out to N. Carolina. It'll get dropped on top of a giant steel support skeleton/platform that's about 15ft tall. The bottom section will house the battery backup system as well as power/plumbing provided by the petrochemical site, and the condensing unit for the two interior AC evaporators. what I'm doing inside of the unit(which has not only a complete site monitoring workstation, but a nice pooper and a full blown shower) is running all of the interior power that is supplied by us. Mainly lighting, convenience stuff(coffee maker, microwave, yada yada) and all the life support systems. Interior and exterior gas monitoring systems, a remote location CO/CO2 scrubbing system, a positive pressure flushing system and a few other complicated do dads(all of which I'll build and wire in house).

The steel box itself is 50' long x 12' wide x 10' tall. The interior skeleton is completely covered in 1/4" plate steel and insulated with a really high density spray foam insulation. The engineers I'm working with on it claim nothing like it has ever been done before, at least not in the states. _Similar_ structures have, but they're usually built on site as an actual structure, or are made from things like reinforced Conex boxes that are only meant to keep you alive if there's a blast. If there is a blast, the structure is trashed and replaced.

So there's the story on my latest prototype.

Fun tidbit, my last big project is a semi-portable grow room, 40'x10'x12', as well as one we built in house kinda like a big cooler/freezer, then took it apart and paletized it. They're en route to Canada right now to the same site as our original Biora Grow Room. Hilariously enough, the Canucks are using them to grow medical marijuana.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> The crane operator. Yup.
> 
> Fun fact, the engineers not only botched the weight calculation by 4500lbs, they also screwed the center of gravity by about 8ft. now 8ft might not sound like much... But when you're trying to lift something that heavy safely and "quickly", you need that CG to be dead nuts on. What should've been a maybe 1.5hr crane operation turned into 4.5hrs of trig and maneuvering a giant steel box. Three crane repositionings and a little assist from our _massive_ forklift.
> 
> ...


I speak on behalf of at least one Canadian...

"Medical?"

Also, brutal on the COG, 8ft! Someone mixed metric and imperial..

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

rpm1974 said:


> Bruh... This is so irritating. I pitched the idea to Chris when we were designing the Subs, half-joking. I rendered the case from the side with lume in the crown, thinking it would be a cool detail I hadn't seen anywhere. I didn't realize he'd taken it seriously until he came back a day or so later and said, "We can do that." Once the first Subs were shown with the lumed crown, everyone and their brother started showing up with lumed crowns. When I was working on Atticus, I mentioned to Chris that I was going to skip the crown lume because "everyone is doing it now." He said something to the tune of, "eff that - it was YOUR idea, you do you."
> 
> So... take THIS, copycats...
> 
> View attachment 15498131


The first problem is that you watched Bruce Williams channel. That guy is a tool. I can't stand him and or Random Rob. Something about the two of them just irks the **** out of me.

Anyway, Chris, the new pieces look great. Love the polar dialed versions.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> I speak on behalf of at least one Canadian...
> 
> "Medical?"
> 
> ...


What can I say? Engineers, man. They believe they're the smartest f***ers in the room.

They sure get miffed when the electrician(s) tell them they're idiots.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> The first problem is that you watched Bruce Williams channel. That guy is a tool. I can't stand him and or Random Rob. Something about the two of them just irks the **** out of me.
> 
> Anyway, Chris, the new pieces look great. Love the polar dialed versions.


I like Bruce and Rob. They're good dudes.

It's funny to see which YT reviewers get popular, and how many struggle. There are many I can't stand hearing for more than a few seconds before I have to stop.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

For all the NTH lovers in here I have a question. I do love my Barracuda Gilt No Date but the bracelet and clasp have caused it to sit on my dresser ever since the first weeks infatuation wore off. I really want a tapered bracelet and a nicer clasp. Has anyone changed out the standard bracelet for something from another watch or from an aftermarket bracelet maker? I'd love to hear what you guys are using or if everyone other than me likes the bracelet.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

^^^ Rumor has it that any bracelet that will fit a Rolex Sub will fit any NTH Sub.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

nonfatproduct said:


> For all the NTH lovers in here I have a question. I do love my Barracuda Gilt No Date but the bracelet and clasp have caused it to sit on my dresser ever since the first weeks infatuation wore off. I really want a tapered bracelet and a nicer clasp. Has anyone changed out the standard bracelet for something from another watch or from an aftermarket bracelet maker? I'd love to hear what you guys are using or if everyone other than me likes the bracelet.


I like the current bracelet.

I like the earlier bracelet/clasp as much or more.

But I think I can relate to your question. As others have, I bought a Ginault bracelet for one of my Subs and it is very satisfying. Before that, I tried a "Glidelock" from eBay. Looked decent, felt kind of junky.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> What can I say? Engineers, man. They believe they're the smartest f***ers in the room.
> 
> They sure get miffed when the electrician(s) tell them they're idiots.


Who doesn't love being called an idiot by anybody, right?! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

MikeyT said:


> ^^^ Rumor has it that any bracelet that will fit a Rolex Sub will fit any NTH Sub.





3WR said:


> I like the current bracelet.
> 
> I like the earlier bracelet/clasp as much or more.
> 
> ...


Thank you both for your help. I do like the current bracelet in areas of quality, feel, and style. my only issue is the lack of taper, and if I'm honest the clasp just feels cheap. The flip lock has never sat flush when closed and I hear rattles from it once in a while. I had tried a couple of my other 40mm diver bracelets and the holes in the lugs never quite lined up. I had looked at the eBay gridelock and the Ginault but was hesitant to pull the trigger not knowing if the end links were correct. I will probably pull the trigger on the next Ginault bracelet I can get my hands on since I really do love the look, feel, and quality of the Barracuda.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

I have owned MANY NTH subs at this point, and I have enjoyed each one for different reasons. They've all been great watches to wear and look at. I even regret selling a few of them, however, this is my favorite and the only one I still have in my collection. This wont be going anywhere. I'm sure I'll add another NTH at some point (on the waiting list for a polar), but this Nazario is the tits for me.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

the texture in that Cali dial is neat and I like the red accents in the bezel. You picked a good one to keep.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Thanks. Like most watches, the pic doesn't do it justice.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Thank you both for your help. I do like the current bracelet in areas of quality, feel, and style. my only issue is the lack of taper, and if I'm honest the clasp just feels cheap. The flip lock has never sat flush when closed and I hear rattles from it once in a while. I had tried a couple of my other 40mm diver bracelets and the holes in the lugs never quite lined up. I had looked at the eBay gridelock and the Ginault but was hesitant to pull the trigger not knowing if the end links were correct. I will probably pull the trigger on the next Ginault bracelet I can get my hands on since I really do love the look, feel, and quality of the Barracuda.


Sometimes those flip locks need a bit of a squeeze on their sides to tighten them up, particularly if you wear your bracelet tight.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> Sometimes those flip locks need a bit of a squeeze on their sides to tighten them up, particularly if you wear your bracelet tight.


I'll give the ol squeeze a try. I really can't believe I didn't think of that.

I appreciate that you take the time to reply to these sort of comments. Out of the handful of micro brands I've purchased watches from I can say that you and Lorier have stood out when it comes to customer interaction


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I'll give the ol squeeze a try. I really can't believe I didn't think of that.
> 
> I appreciate that you take the time to reply to these sort of comments. Out of the handful of micro brands I've purchased watches from I can say that you and Lorier have stood out when it comes to customer interaction


No worries. I want everyone to be happy with what they buy.

It's funny...after reading your post yesterday, I looked at the clasp on the watch I was wearing, and noticed the same thing - mine doesn't sit perfectly flush. I'd never noticed it before. It doesn't bother me, obviously, so long as the clasp stays shut, and that part isn't constantly coming open and flopping around.

Earlier this week, a customer contacted us to see if the clicking noise he heard while winding his DevilRay was normal. I checked mine, holding it to my ear as I wound it, and sure enough, I heard a clicking. I asked Dan about it, and he confirmed it's normal - there's a little lever that clicks into place between the teeth on a gear, to keep the mainspring from unwinding.

I'd just never noticed it before (just like I've never noticed the infamous Miyota 9 rotor noise). The clicking sound is so low that it's barely perceptible. Dan and I had our usual talk about how many watch geeks seem to have a higher propensity to notice, if not obsess over little things that the vast majority of people wouldn't.

Also this week, I gave Dan my wife's Santa Cruz, so he could swap out the old, v.1 with-date dial (date at ~4:30) with a no-date dial, so we could send it for photography. He called to tell me the case was pretty dinged up. Not only did I not notice it before, but it occurred to me that I never inspected the other watches from my collection before I'd sent them for photos.

Take it for whatever it's worth. Beyond the question of whether or not something is "wrong" or "normal", I wonder if I scrutinize the watches in my personal collection less because that's just my nature, or if the fact that I'm getting my watches at cost makes me less concerned with inspecting them more closely, as compared to someone paying ~$700 for one.

I guess my point is - I try to maintain a dispassionate understanding when customers bring up those little things. Even though my instincts tell me there's nothing wrong, and the vast majority of time there isn't, sometimes we just need to "talk someone off the ledge". It's just part of the job.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of clicking noises...

EDIT - I'm not sure why the thumbnail images appear to be broken on Tapatalk, but the links still appear to work.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Odin Black and Skipjack No-Date are now sold out, worldwide.

As of the last count I took from retailers:

2 Vanguard no date - 1 at Serious Watches, 1 at TimeIndo.
2 Dolphin Ice no date - 1 at WatchGauge, 1 at Serious.
1 Scorpène Nomad with date - at IntoWatch.
1 Näcken Vintage Black no date - at the Watchdrobe.
1 Näcken Vintage Black with date - at Five:45.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

nonfatproduct said:


> Thank you both for your help. I do like the current bracelet in areas of quality, feel, and style. my only issue is the lack of taper, and if I'm honest the clasp just feels cheap. The flip lock has never sat flush when closed and I hear rattles from it once in a while. I had tried a couple of my other 40mm diver bracelets and the holes in the lugs never quite lined up. I had looked at the eBay gridelock and the Ginault but was hesitant to pull the trigger not knowing if the end links were correct. I will probably pull the trigger on the next Ginault bracelet I can get my hands on since I really do love the look, feel, and quality of the Barracuda.


For what it's worth, I wasn't completely sold on the new clasp either. So I tried some other options:
1. I love the Bonetto Cinturini rubber straps. More casual, but supremely comfortable.
2. The Beads of Rice NTH bracelet is also pretty nice. More dressy but super comfortable. Same clasp, but wears differently
3. The older version of the NTH clasp fits the new bracelet. It is stamped and not milled, but smaller and less "obtrusive". I tried that for awhile, but this:
4. I have slightly smaller (7 in) wrists, but they're also flatter. Much more oval than round. Lots of bracelets don't fit me as well because the hinges are made with a dramatic curve which stands up on my flat wrists. So, risking everything, I removed the hinge from the clasp and slightly flattened it in a vise. No harm done, no scratches, etc. BUT it wears dramatically better on me now. FWIW

So, of my three subs, one's on rubber, ones' on the BoR, and one's on the original bracelet with modded clasp. I like them all. Photos later when I get a minute...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

WeirdGuy said:


> I have owned MANY NTH subs at this point, and I have enjoyed each one for different reasons. They've all been great watches to wear and look at. I even regret selling a few of them, however, this is my favorite and the only one I still have in my collection. This wont be going anywhere. I'm sure I'll add another NTH at some point (on the waiting list for a polar), but this Nazario is the tits for me.
> 
> View attachment 15515720


That looks really sweet there. That steel bezel is Fantastic !!
Like your choice of strap too, works well on a nato/MN.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Thanks! I like this strap because well, it looks good, but it's also elastic and all I have to do is just slide the watch on my wrist. Never have to undo the strap to take off or put on.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> No worries. I want everyone to be happy with what they buy.
> 
> It's funny...after reading your post yesterday, I looked at the clasp on the watch I was wearing, and noticed the same thing - mine doesn't sit perfectly flush. I'd never noticed it before. It doesn't bother me, obviously, so long as the clasp stays shut, and that part isn't constantly coming open and flopping around.
> 
> ...


You made me laugh with this. Yeah, this hobby has a broad base, and there are certainly some who really have gone off at the deep end. They'd probably say they just like taking a more granular approach to it, or something.
If I know I'm going to keep something, then I just wear it. I'm very clumsy so it'll get dinged and scratched eventually. That's life.
I work in hospitality, people are just really weird. But most of them are lovely all the same. It's always the 2% who take up 50% of time.


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

MikeyT said:


> Rumor has it that any bracelet that will fit a Rolex Sub will fit any NTH Sub.


Is this definite?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pablo.Flox said:


> Is this definite?


Your mileage may vary, but it does appear that any bracelet meant to fit the Submariner's 20mm lugs will fit the NTH Subs' 20mm lugs.

If you search "NTH" on eBay, I know there was someone selling what appeared to be the Ginault bracelet with "glidelock" clasp, but put "NTH" in the product title.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of bracelets...

I can confirm that the pending release of 40mm Subs has the v.3 end-link, which, like the 2K1's end-link, is slightly recessed below the surface of the lugs, and has greater definition around its raised center-section.

We've completed QC on the first ~110 of 250 pieces for this release. Tomorrow, they'll be on their way to our retailers. What we received was not quite all of the Barracuda Vintage Black, the Näcken Modern Black, and the Näcken Modern Blue.

We're expecting to have the rest of those three versions, plus the Nazario Vino Rosso and Scorpène White delivered here within the next 24-48 hours. We should have them QC'd and ready to ship by the end of the week, or early next.

The Barracuda Polar White were held back. Apparently the bezel pip was mistakenly filled in with blue lume, rather than white, so the inserts are being re-done. Those will hopefully be delivered to us by the end of this week, and be ready to ship by the beginning or middle of next week.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Yeah, I think that you had mentioned that a long while back. The color limitations of the PVD, I mean.
> 
> The "in real life" thing, the "varying based on lighting conditions" thing that's tough. But I'm glad to hear that the greenish hues are less noticeable. That does help push me that direction!


Out of curiosity, what do you think of the blue we used on the Thresher and Swiftsure dials?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Out of curiosity, what do you think of the blue we used on the Thresher and Swiftsure dials?
> 
> View attachment 15517766
> 
> ...


I think they're beautiful. Are they both the same?

They're really striking, and the Thresher in particular would be a strong candidate for my next watch if it were part of the 40mm sub lineup.

That closeup photo of the Swiftsure is gorgeous.

At present, I'm trying to make up my mind about Nacken customizing. Do I go all blue, or do a bezel swap? Hard to choose!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> I think they're beautiful. Are they both the same?
> 
> They're really striking, and the Thresher in particular would be a strong candidate for my next watch if it were part of the 40mm sub lineup.
> 
> ...


All blue


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I wish I could find the "what color blue is it" WoT to frame and hang in my office...


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> At present, I'm trying to make up my mind about Nacken customizing. Do I go all blue, or do a bezel swap? Hard to choose!


I'd say go all blue, it's worth it!


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Your mileage may vary, but it does appear that any bracelet meant to fit the Submariner's 20mm lugs will fit the NTH Subs' 20mm lugs.
> 
> If you search "NTH" on eBay, I know there was someone selling what appeared to be the Ginault bracelet with "glidelock" clasp, but put "NTH" in the product title.


yea, I bought that one recently, had to send it back. the end links did _not_ fit the lugs (can't get the spring bar to seat into the lug holes) and to top it off the seller did not honour the evidence that the bracelet did not fit the sub. While he did take the bracelet back, I had to swallow the shipping expenses.

this is the pic I attached to the return. I think it is pretty clear that the spring bar is a good 1 mm or so too far away from the case for this bracelet to work. Aside from that... I was not impressed with the 'glidelock'. It was a pretty rough and flimsy affair overall (the clasp, not the bracelet). so, 40 quid down the drain, but a lesson learned I guess


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

To clarify - that bracelet with Nth in the title is NOT the ginault bracelet. The guy is reselling junk bracelets he gets from alibaba. The ginault bracelet does fit and has a much higher quality clasp.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

92gli said:


> To clarify - that bracelet with Nth in the title is NOT the ginault bracelet. The guy is reselling junk bracelets he gets from alibaba. The ginault bracelet does fit and has a much higher quality clasp.


ah, ok that makes sense. I heard good things about Ginault, and was extremely surprised by the statement that they were supposed to be one and the same.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I think they're beautiful. Are they both the same?
> 
> They're really striking, and the Thresher in particular would be a strong candidate for my next watch if it were part of the 40mm sub lineup.
> 
> ...


The Swiftsure and Thresher are both the same shade of blue.

They're also the same shade of blue used on the Odin.

I $hlt you not.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

With all this talk of colors.... is there any plan or thought of doing something green? OD Green or a darker Hunter Green?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> yea, I bought that one recently, had to send it back. the end links did _not_ fit the lugs (can't get the spring bar to seat into the lug holes) and to top it off the seller did not honour the evidence that the bracelet did not fit the sub. While he did take the bracelet back, I had to swallow the shipping expenses.
> 
> this is the pic I attached to the return. I think it is pretty clear that the spring bar is a good 1 mm or so too far away from the case for this bracelet to work. Aside from that... I was not impressed with the 'glidelock'. It was a pretty rough and flimsy affair overall (the clasp, not the bracelet). so, 40 quid down the drain, but a lesson learned I guess.


Wait...

You're telling me that the person who used my brand name without my permission to sell bracelets sold you a bracelet that didn't even fit the watch, and gave you a hard time about the return?

So much for honor among thieves, I guess.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> To clarify - that bracelet with Nth in the title is NOT the ginault bracelet. The guy is reselling junk bracelets he gets from alibaba. The ginault bracelet does fit and has a much higher quality clasp.


I honestly had no idea. When those bracelets showed up, with that clasp, and using the NTH name, it really seemed like it was the Ginault bracelet, given what transpired with them last year.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> With all this talk of colors.... is there any plan or thought of doing something green? OD Green or a darker Hunter Green?


I don't have anything specific planned.

That said, believe it or not, our PVD supplier does have a color that's a sort of OD green available. I haven't been in a rush to use it, but I do sometimes think we might try to use it eventually.


----------



## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I debated all weekend spending the money on a Ginault bracelet, or taking a risk on the eBay options. This morning, when I put the Barracuda on my wrist and thought about how much I love the watch itself, I decided to spend the money and do it right. Order placed from Ginault


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I debated all weekend spending the money on a Ginault bracelet or taking a risk on the eBay options. This morning when I put the Barracuda on my wrist and thought about how much I love the watch itself I decided to spend the money and do it right. Order placed from Ginault


Sorry you don't like the stock bracelet, but hopefully the new one will lead to you enjoying the watch more.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just spotted this, posted to a couple FB groups I'm in, and I can't stop smiling at it...


----------



## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> Sorry you don't like the stock bracelet, but hopefully the new one will lead to you enjoying the watch more.


You have nothing to be sorry for. The stock bracelet is beautiful, I simply prefer a bracelet that tapers. Please take it as a compliment that I enjoy your watch enough to spend an additional $230 just to keep it around!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> You have nothing to be sorry for. The stock bracelet is beautiful, I simply prefer a bracelet that tapers. Please take it as a compliment that I enjoy your watch enough to spend an additional $230 just to keep it around!


I do appreciate that. I want everyone to love what they buy from us, but of course I also understand that no matter what we do, folks will inevitably be divided over something, like the male vs female end-link, or how much the bracelet should taper, if at all, etc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

New review of the 2K1 Swiftsure from Bruce Williams...


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

seatega said:


> I'd say go all blue, it's worth it!
> 
> View attachment 15518016


Crap. That may be best one yet.

Does it really look like that? Like, in regular light on a regular day?



docvail said:


> The Swiftsure and Thresher are both the same shade of blue.
> 
> They're also the same shade of blue used on the Odin.
> 
> I $hlt you not.


I believe you.

That's why I said the blue mystified me. All the pictures give different impressions depending on the lighting.

Personally I also like pure white markers, which is one reason I didn't look at the Odin, but the Swiftsure and Thresher are particularly attractive.

It's really all about the bezel color. I like grey-blue tints, I'm just not a fan of green-blue tints. Both the Nacken and the Thresher/Swiftsure dial colors are great. It's the bezel that throws me. That teal color that shows in a lot of pictures.

Also, I realize I'm being super nitpicky about this all. There's nowhere else to do it though, my wife just rolls her eyes at me.

(I expect doc has also had his eyes firmly lodged in the back of his head since I brought it up. )

Anyway thanks for indulging me. Looks like I'm probably going the direction of a Nacken blue next.


----------



## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> Crap. That may be best one yet.
> 
> Does it really look like that? Like, in regular light on a regular day?


Basically! The only time I see it with a green tint is when I'm in a room with a lightbulb that gives off yellowish light.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

I know I will be in the minority on this, but I would LOVE to see a dark flat/matte purple dial. Cue Doc to say HELL NO. lol


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

nonfatproduct said:


> With all this talk of colors.... is there any plan or thought of doing something green? OD Green or a darker Hunter Green?


New Azores will have a green dial variant, iirc.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> New Azores will have a green dial variant, iirc.


Indeed.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> That's why I said the blue mystified me. All the pictures give different impressions depending on the lighting.
> 
> Personally I also like pure white markers, which is one reason I didn't look at the Odin, but the Swiftsure and Thresher are particularly attractive.
> 
> ...


You are being super nitpicky, but I don't mind indulging. You're not the only nor the first one to obsess over "what shade of blue is it?". As we've agreed, the color will vary a lot among images you see, as opposed to the more monochromatic designs with black or white dials, where black is black, and white is white (mostly).

I posted those pics of the Swiftsure and Thresher to show that the blue we used is fairly neutral. I think it appeared less so when paired with the pale yellow C3 lume we used on the Odin. I think the yellowish lume brings out the green in the blue, maybe. On either the Nacken Modern Blue, or on the 2K1's, I think the pure white lume will keep you from seeing the greenish tones.

As far as how green-blue vs gray-blue it is, and I don't want to sound argumentative here, but in terms of the RGB (red-green-blue) scale, "gray" isn't a primary color. So when we look at how "green" either color is, and look at where they are on the Pantone color wheel, I'd say both colors are pretty neutral - on the same axis, about equidistant from either green or red - and the only difference is how saturated, or light/dark they are.

I believe the more saturated blue always appears to be some shade of "blue", regardless of the camera used or conditions, even if the exact shade of blue can vary somewhat, whereas the low-saturation blue can sometimes just look black, or simply gray, depending on how well the observer's eye or the camera detects the pigments. It really needs bright light and a good eye or camera to appear blue at all.

We can't help how the bezel appears. The brushed finish will make its appearance vary more. And like I said in an earlier post, I think many mobile device cameras have a hard time reading and depicting blues, such that some blue dials will look purple, and the bezel could look navy blue or teal.

But that's the darkest blue PVD color available to us for the bezels, and the Odin / 2K1's blue is as close a match as we've found among the Pantone colors we need to specify for dials.

2K1 and Odin's blue on the left, Nacken's on the right:


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Wait...
> 
> You're telling me that the person who used my brand name without my permission to sell bracelets sold you a bracelet that didn't even fit the watch, and gave you a hard time about the return?
> 
> So much for honor among thieves, I guess.


yea, well. that'll be the day, right.



nonfatproduct said:


> You have nothing to be sorry for. The stock bracelet is beautiful, I simply prefer a bracelet that tapers. Please take it as a compliment that I enjoy your watch enough to spend an additional $230 just to keep it around!


echo that sentiment. I very much like the stock bracelet, and I have no gripe with the clasp as some others seem to have. It was hot, I felt like adding some on the fly adjustability on the clasp would be a nice thing to have.

While I don't have one (yet) I do very much like the Näcken Modern Blue Maybe I will be able to pick one up in this batch finally. The whichever-shade-of-blue-it-is is very appealing.

If you do discontinue the traditional subs (as you alluded to) in favour of a downsized 2k1, starting with the Näcken Modern blue (arguably the most popular sub) in the new case would be straight ?. Until then, I'll have to wait and I made up my mind about the tropics 



WeirdGuy said:


> I know I will be in the minority on this, but I would LOVE to see a dark flat/matte purple dial. Cue Doc to say HELL NO. lol


true to your name


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also Random Rob...


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> As we've agreed, the color will vary a lot among images you see, as opposed to the more monochromatic designs with black or white dials, where black is black, and white is white (mostly).


Don't get me started on how annoyed I am that there are so many "offwhite" or "silver tone white" and so few "pure white" dials on the market!

Anyways, thanks for letting me nitpick my heart out and for indulging.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Don't get me started on how annoyed I am that there are so many "offwhite" or "silver tone white" and so few "pure white" dials on the market!
> 
> Anyways, thanks for letting me nitpick my heart out and for indulging.


Deal, if you agree you won't get me started on how many guys want to argue that the literally-just-one-shade-darker-than-pure-white DevilRay is actually silver, but how few argue the also-just-one-shade-lighter-than-pure-black DevilRay is actually a dark gray.

I'll also assume this means you'll be picking up one of the Barracuda Polar Whites coming in soon, or a Santa Cruz in December, if not both.

Their dials are as lily white as it gets.

...

For reals though...we used the word "silver" for the color of a model once, and a lot of those watches got held up by customs officials, who apparently didn't realize silver is a color, not just a precious metal. I had the devil of a time dealing with all the customer requests for invoices and additional documentation required by various countries' customs agents. I'll never get caught off guard like that again.

And, for all the unavoidable argle-bargle about the various blues, I really don't want to double it by using "off-white" as a color description. If we make a full-lume dial, we'll specify the lume color in the specs, and just call it "white", whether the dial is C3 or BG W9.

Otherwise, if the dial is just white, we'll call it white, and if it's literally-just-one-shade-darker-than-white-as-it-must-be-when-we-do-a-sunray-finish, we'll also call it white, and people who want to argue it's actually silver are more than welcome to argue that with their local customs officials, since I'm out of that game forever.


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## SCraftWatchGuy221 (Feb 4, 2019)

Does anybody have real world photos of the DLC Vintage Barracuda? Can’t decide which one I like more, the regular or DLC version. Curious what shade of black / gray it will be


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SCraftWatchGuy221 said:


> Does anybody have real world photos of the DLC Vintage Barracuda? Can't decide which one I like more, the regular or DLC version. Curious what shade of black / gray it will be


No one has pics yet. We're still waiting to receive them.


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> I don't have anything specific planned.
> 
> That said, believe it or not, our PVD supplier does have a color that's a sort of OD green available. I haven't been in a rush to use it, but I do sometimes think we might try to use it eventually.


It would be great to do a "kermit" color scheme on something! I think it'd look great on the bvb or nacken vintage black


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> It would be great to do a "kermit" color scheme on something! I think it'd look great on the bvb or nacken vintage black


It's not that shade of green, more of a brownish, like khaki green.


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## Minoru (Mar 30, 2019)

I just recently bought my first NTH watch. I think it's very nice to make. I especially like its thinness and luminous intensity. It's been a few days since I started using it, but I'm worried that it's a little late. I also wanted other models. 









Tapatalk を使用して私の GM1910 から送信


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Minoru said:


> I just recently bought my first NTH watch. I think it's very nice to make. I especially like its thinness and luminous intensity. It's been a few days since I started using it, but I'm worried that it's a little late. I also wanted other models.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The more I see of this watch, the more I like it. Looks great, thanks for sharing!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's not that shade of green, more of a brownish, like khaki green.


I'm probably imagining the wrong shade, but it still might be interesting, like the Harrod's BB



https://oracleoftime.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Tudor-Black-Bay-for-Harrods-Special-Edition-6.jpg


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> It's not that shade of green, more of a brownish, like khaki green.


This is the color I'd like to see on the bezel of a 40mm sub. When I left active duty I wanted nothing to do with anything that reminded me of military life, but now, enough years separated to forget some of the BS, I find myself wanting OD Green in my life. Having it on my wrist would be perfection.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

nonfatproduct said:


> This is the color I'd like to see on the bezel of a 40mm sub. When I left active duty I wanted nothing to do with anything that reminded me of military life, but now, enough years separated to forget some of the BS, I find myself wanting OD Green in my life. Having it on my wrist would be perfection.


Take a look at the offerings from Haveston straps. Not an entire watch, but 100% military vibe.

Heres the two I've got.

Ol' naval "dazzle" camo.









Field khaki/kinda OD green.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Minoru said:


> I just recently bought my first NTH watch. I think it's very nice to make. I especially like its thinness and luminous intensity. It's been a few days since I started using it, but I'm worried that it's a little late. I also wanted other models.
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Looks great. Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Welcome to the thread. Hang around and enjoy the shenanigans.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> I'm probably imagining the wrong shade, but it still might be interesting, like the Harrod's BB
> 
> 
> 
> https://oracleoftime.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Tudor-Black-Bay-for-Harrods-Special-Edition-6.jpg


I don't think it's exactly that.

Trying to find the right pantone color to match the physical samples I have here in the office is a bit of a chore, but I took a first pass at it. I think one of these might not be too far off...
























The plating vendor literally calls this color "khaki", but it's not, really. Khaki is more canvas colored, more tan or light brown. There's definitely more green in what I'm looking at with the sample.

If we did this, I'd probably ask my vendor to get me a bezel sample, brushed, and have them whip up a bunch of dial samples with as many Pantones as I can find that look like they're close. That's what we did with the Barracuda Brown - made the one bezel insert, and 6 different dials.

Or, we could chuck it all, and just make the dial black, like the Kermit, or that Tudor.


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Take a look at the offerings from Haveston straps. Not an entire watch, but 100% military vibe.
> 
> Heres the two I've got.
> 
> ...


Haveston straps are awesome!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> I don't think it's exactly that.
> 
> Trying to find the right pantone color to match the physical samples I have here in the office is a bit of a chore, but I took a first pass at it. I think one of these might not be too far off...
> 
> ...


Any of those colors are pretty close to what I'm imagining in my head. I almost don't want anything other than a black dial though. More than the bezel sounds like too much of a good thing. Although seeing sample would be a great way to know for sure.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Review up on Zaltek...









NTH 2K1 Thresher » Zaltek Reviews


The 2K1 Subs are a tribute to the world’s first dive watches fitted with helium escape valves, made for record-setting, deep saturation diving in the late 60’s.




www.zaltekreviews.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone looking for pics of the next Subs release?

Dan's workshop pics slightly better than factory's pics...













































@SCraftWatchGuy221 









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Someone looking for pics of the next Subs release?
> 
> Dan's workshop pics slightly better than factory's pics...
> 
> ...


Very nice.
That Scorpène looks killer.

C'mon John, don't lemme down.
Send me that DLC Vino Rosso invoice!


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


This looks very nice! Didn't know I needed it until now.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

My no-date Dolphin came in and it's beautiful. I just need to go pick up a screw driver that will fit the bracelet screws and then I'll probably end up wearing it for weeks!


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

How many barracuda polar whites are being made in this production? Figuring out how special I am to have gotten one on pre order 😆


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

seatega said:


> My no-date Dolphin came in and it's beautiful. I just need to go pick up a screw driver that will fit the bracelet screws and then I'll probably end up wearing it for weeks!


Wiha 96012 Slotted Screwdriver with Precision Handle, 1.2 x 40mm. 
Or: 
Wera 05117992001 2035 Screwdriver for Slotted Screws for Electronic Applications, 0.20 mm x 1.2 mm x 40 mm

Google search that.
Makes life easier...


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I bought a black odin because the price was too good to pass up. That is all...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> My no-date Dolphin came in and it's beautiful. I just need to go pick up a screw driver that will fit the bracelet screws and then I'll probably end up wearing it for weeks!
> 
> View attachment 15523922


Looks great. Glad you like it. Make sure to use some clear nail polish or mild thread-locker on the threads of any screws you remove whilst sizing the bracelet, and let us know if the watch gives you any trouble.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pablo.Flox said:


> How many barracuda polar whites are being made in this production? Figuring out how special I am to have gotten one on pre order 😆


Just 50 - 25 with-date, 25 no-date.

Each of those 25 are broken down as 5 on beads-of-rice, 20 on the 3-link oyster.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys - just a heads-up...We sent some of the new 40mm Subs inventory out to our retailers. There's more coming, but John at Watch Gauge has already started sending out invoices to peeps on his waiting list. And it's a LOOOONNNNGGGGG list.

Don't screw around. If you're on the waiting list, check your email, and if there's an invoice from John, pay it, before he offers the watch you want to someone else. Inventory is extremely limited, compared to the size of his wait list.

If you're buying from Serious in the EU, or IntoWatch in S.Korea, or the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong, they also have some of the new Subs now, or will very soon, so you'll want to be checking their websites starting NOW. Five:45 in New Zealand will have theirs within 10-14 days.

Pictures of what Keil's doing for attention...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Have the DLC models been sent out to John yet? Or are y'all still putting them through their QC paces?


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

This screwdriver also works a treat...









Horofix Premium Watch Bracelet Adjusting Screwdriver


This special watch screwdriver was designed to fit Panerai bracelet screws. With a heavy duty aluminum body it makes for easy removal of those screws!




www.esslinger.com





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

I was lucky enough to secure a Barracuda Vintage Black n/d oyster from John at W/G. 
Waiting.. tick, tock, etc..


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Wiha 96012 Slotted Screwdriver with Precision Handle, 1.2 x 40mm.
> Or:
> Wera 05117992001 2035 Screwdriver for Slotted Screws for Electronic Applications, 0.20 mm x 1.2 mm x 40 mm
> 
> ...





3WR said:


> This screwdriver also works a treat...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome, thanks for the recommendations guys, I will definitely take a look at them!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> @SCraftWatchGuy221


DAAAAAANG.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Have the DLC models been sent out to John yet? Or are y'all still putting them through their QC paces?


Not yet. They'll be a few more days.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

I must be too far down that barracuda polar white list. Damn. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I must be too far down that barracuda polar white list. Damn.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think he's sent those invoices out yet.

He's gotten less than 40% of his order so far. We're still expecting the Polars to be delivered to us, and we're wrapping up QC on the rest of the production (except for the Polars) now.

We've only shipped the Barracuda Vintage Black (stainless only, not DLC), the Nacken Modern Black, and the Nacken Modern Blue so far, and not all of them at that.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

My Ginault bracelet showed up yesterday and it looks identical to the post made a couple pages back so I won't bore you all with more pictures. I can echo the sentiment of all others who made the jump before me in that this is perfect. the fitment of end links, the quality of the oyster bracelet that tapers down to 16mm, combined with the glide lock clasp that is better quality than I was even hoping for, make the perfect addition to the Barracuda No Date Vintage Black.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

nonfatproduct said:


> My Ginault bracelet showed up yesterday and it looks identical to the post made a couple pages back so I won't bore you all with more pictures. I can echo the sentiment of all others who made the jump before me in that this is perfect. the fitment of end links, the quality of the oyster bracelet that tapers down to 16mm, combined with the glide lock clasp that is better quality than I was even hoping for, make the perfect addition to the Barracuda No Date Vintage Black.


Diff'rent strokes... I know there are many people who like this bracelet, but I am not one of them. Tried one out and went back to the stock Sub (v2) bracelet.

Here's why:
1) I prefer the NTH 3-link style to any kind of oyster (1-link) style. Drapes, feels, looks better.
2) Limited removeable links. Although this may have been addressed later, the one I got had only a couple adjustment links on either side of the clasp. Seems to be largely a function of the length of the clasp and taper of the bracelet. I don't have a large wrist (7"), prefer the clasp closer on the 6 side of the watch, and could not get it where I prefer it with link removal. 
3) Length of the clasp. Too long. Not worth sacrificing comfort for on-the-fly adjustment.
4) Not signed "NTH." I actually don't really care much about this, but still...

FWIW, I didn't think the NTH BoP bracelet worked with my very tool-watch Scorpene, either.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

The Odin black pairs beautifully with my gray jeans and jacket. And my gray shirts, gray car, gray mountain bike... you get the point.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> FWIW, I didn't think the NTH BoP bracelet worked with my very tool-watch Scorpene, either.


Scorpène on BOR vs v.3 Oyster...



















I tend to agree on this one. The BOR is more fancy, the Oyster more toolish. The Scorpène is many things, but fancy ain't one of them.

I think the BOR is best on the Barracudas, the Santa Cruz, the Skipjack, the Dolphins, the Nazarios, and the Vanguard. The rest are better on the Oyster.

All just my own $0.02.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I like the way a BOR can dress up a tool watch but I'm a sucker for a quality oyster bracelet on a sub


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Did somebody say BOR?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Did somebody say BOR?
> View attachment 15525466


This is probably my favorite combo and best use of BoP bracelet...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Hey Bearded, did you see WatchGauge has a watch that may appeal to those specializing in wiring up palatial Canadian grow house / bunkers?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Hey Bearded, did you see WatchGauge has a watch that may appeal to those specializing in wiring up palatial Canadian grow house / bunkers?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did actually! I gave em a look as soon as I saw the name, lol.

Tbh, they're not really my style. Though I do love the ideas behind them. I may not like the looks, but I do find them to be pretty damn cool!

Edit: 
If I ever did get one for sh**s and giggs it'd be the Ammeter. I only use Fluke meters.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

92gli said:


> The Odin black pairs beautifully with my gray jeans and jacket. And my gray shirts, gray car, gray mountain bike... you get the point.
> 
> View attachment 15525436


Not sure if it is a recent run of nice photos. Or subconscious desire for sword hands. But I'm warming up to (black) Odin lately.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> Not sure if it is a recent run of nice photos. Or subconscious desire for sword hands. But I'm warming up to (black) Odin lately.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sword hands are just attractive

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Not sure if it is a recent run of nice photos. Or subconscious desire for sword hands. But I'm warming up to (black) Odin lately.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just in time. The last new one sold last week.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## papabear244 (Sep 29, 2020)

I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but I was wondering how many people out there other than me would be interested in NTH making a 37mm sub. It's a smaller market but there's not that much competition. 

37 club show your support! 🙌


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Scorpène on BOR vs v.3 Oyster...
> 
> View attachment 15525444
> 
> ...


I've put the Nth BoR on my Santa Cruz... perfect! Interestingly I recently got a DB diver and ordered their BoR straight endlink...meh. It's brushed and just doesn't exude the same style the Nth does.

Now have an Uncle Seiko BoR inbound and hoping this will be better, however in all likelihood that will end up on my Tuna!

FWIW, the Nth BoR is a beautiful bracelet... the only improvement for me would be less taper, I'm a straight bracelet rather than taper guy.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Just in time. The last new one sold last week.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Nearly new is new enough.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

papabear244 said:


> I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but I was wondering how many people out there other than me would be interested in NTH making a 37mm sub. It's a smaller market but there's not that much competition.
> 
> 37 club show your support! 🙌


If you can gather up 499 friends to put down non refundable deposits, and they're all patient enough to wait out the design, build, QC phases, I'm sure Doc wouldn't mind making it for ya!


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't think he's sent those invoices out yet.
> 
> He's gotten less than 40% of his order so far. We're still expecting the Polars to be delivered to us, and we're wrapping up QC on the rest of the production (except for the Polars) now.
> 
> We've only shipped the Barracuda Vintage Black (stainless only, not DLC), the Nacken Modern Black, and the Nacken Modern Blue so far, and not all of them at that.


Thanks for giving me hope!

But hope is dangerous

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

papabear244 said:


> I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but I was wondering how many people out there other than me would be interested in NTH making a 37mm sub. It's a smaller market but there's not that much competition.
> 
> 37 club show your support! 🙌


Have you tried on a 40mm NTH sub? If not, I'd encourage you to give it a try. I have a 6.25" wrist and find them to be a perfect fit even though 35-38mm is a good size for me for most other kinds of watches. The thinness really helps make it comfortable.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Sussa said:


> Have you tried on a 40mm NTH sub? If not, I'd encourage you to give it a try. I have a 6.25" wrist and find them to be a perfect fit even though 35-38mm is a good size for me for most other kinds of watches. The thinness really helps make it comfortable.


This.

I have a 40mm Invicta 8926 and a 40mm NTH.

Despite having the same width, the Invicta feels substantially larger. The thinness of the NTH combined with the case design help the NTH melt into the wrist.

The NTH sub is ridiculously comfortable. I have 38mm watches that "feel" larger.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Nearly new is new enough.


Well, then we have one for you...until someone buys it, that is.









Odin - Black - Nearly New


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com







TheBearded said:


> If you can gather up 499 friends to put down non refundable deposits, and they're all patient enough to wait out the design, build, QC phases, I'm sure Doc wouldn't mind making it for ya!


It's almost like you've got a window into my mind.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> It's almost like you've got a window into my mind.


We've heard you say that, I don't know how many times....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> We've heard you say that, I don't know how many times....


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

No Zwaardvis sightings this Halloween? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

This is not an NTH post. This is an "I decided to build a watch" post.

Helenarou case and dial
Cheapie skeletonized 6497 from ebay
Hands from I cant remember where. They did ship from stateside though. 
And a rattle can of anodized blue for the back of the dial. 
























I'm gonna enjoy it a bit before I open it back up to remove the stupid f***ing g******ed specks of dust I noticed under the crystal after I put the strap on.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> This is not an NTH post. This is an "I decided to build a watch" post.


But it's in the NTH thread because &#8230; ???


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avo said:


> But it's in the NTH thread because &#8230; ???


Because I'm in here a lot. 
Problem with that?

Tough titty.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> Because I'm in here a lot.
> Problem with that?
> 
> Tough titty.


Damn curmudgeons...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Because I'm in here a lot.
> Problem with that?
> Tough titty.





Red PeeKay said:


> Damn curmudgeons...


Hey you kids! Get off of my lawn!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Hey you kids! Get off of my lawn!


I'll mow it for $20


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Non-NTH watches for @avo's mood-lightening party   just jesting, of course

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> This is not an NTH post. This is an "I decided to build a watch" post.
> 
> Helenarou case and dial
> Cheapie skeletonized 6497 from ebay
> ...


Wow. Nice build for a bunch of cheap parts. I'm not usually a Flieger-B guy, but I like it with the pop of color, and painting the back of the dial blue was a good call.

Those specks of dust are why I never progressed past the first couple attempts at uncasing / recasing a dial-movement assembly. I don't have the patience for it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


>


This reminds me...

Last week I asked Dan to swap out the v.1 with-date (date at ~4:30) dial in my wife's Santa Cruz with a no-date dial, if we had one in our parts supplies, so I could send it for photography. I didn't want to shoot one with the old date window position.

Turns out we did have the dial we needed, along with some other dials for some older models, including this one, the Amphion Dark Gilt, where the markers are applied, rather than the dial being gilt-relief, as on the Vintage Gilt. Dan had it and some others out on one of his workbenches when I stopped in.

I'm not bragging. I'm just saying, when you see some of these dials, uncased, without the crystal or AR coating muting the details, they really pop.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Wow. Nice build for a bunch of cheap parts. I'm not usually a Flieger-B guy, but I like it with the pop of color, and painting the back of the dial blue was a good call.
> 
> Those specks of dust are why I never progressed past the first couple attempts at uncasing / recasing a dial-movement assembly. I don't have the patience for it.


Honestly, I'm amazed I didn't get pissed off and just throw it all in a drawer while I was putting it together. Those screws are effing _tiny_. But as frustrating as it was, it was incredibly rewarding to see it finished and working properly. Its by no means my favorite watch all of a sudden, but it does have a special place in the collection now.

Hell, maybe one day I'll do another.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> This is not an NTH post. This is an "I decided to build a watch" post.
> 
> Helenarou case and dial
> Cheapie skeletonized 6497 from ebay
> ...


I'm surprised your fingers are still steady enough to install hands! Bzzzzt...

Also, fu*king has only one "*"...

Which reminds me, there's a Pho restaurant near my hovel that is called Pho King...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> Which reminds me, there's a Pho restaurant near my hovel that is called Pho King...
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


I ate at a place called Moon Wok once...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Honestly, I'm amazed I didn't get pissed off and just throw it all in a drawer while I was putting it together. Those screws are effing _tiny_. But as frustrating as it was, it was incredibly rewarding to see it finished and working properly. Its by no means my favorite watch all of a sudden, but it does have a special place in the collection now.
> 
> Hell, maybe one day I'll do another.


True tales of two microbrand owners...

Before there was a "Melbourne Watch Company", Sujain got his start putting together Fliegers and PAM homages using eBay parts at his kitchen table. I don't know how many he sold, but apparently he didn't mind the work. Anyway, from such humble beginnings, a successful business was born.

Meanwhile, and like I said, I made one or two attempts at uncasing-recasing a dial/movement assembly, and that was enough for me.

But not long before I realized how infuriating I found that process, I asked my wife to get me one of those Sea-Gull "build your own watch" kits for my birthday or Christmas. I had it in mind to make it a father-son project with one or the other of my boys.

To that point, most of our father-son projects consisted of them asking relatives for complex Lego kits, and me spending the days following Christmas sitting at the dining room table, silently cursing to myself, as I put them together, and the boys sat in the other room watching cartoons.

So, the Sea-Gull kit first sat in the cabinet above my desk, and then on top of my book shelf, for at least 3-4 years, before I finally admitted I was never going to put it together. I ended up using it as a prize for a giveaway.

Side note, it was Ric (hic!) Capucho who'd turned me onto the kit, having (hilariously) documented his own ham-fisted (and I believe drunken) process of putting one together a year or two earlier, in his own WUS thread. I should have let his story serve as a cautionary tale, but for some reason, I didn't.

Funny what we put ourselves through, innit?

For anyone feeling inspired (I guess by Ric, not by me) to try their hand at a DIY Sea-Gull, we got the kits special-order via Jun at "Times International" (aka "Good Stuffs"). At least back then, he was the only source for them. You had to email him to get one, and PayPal the money in advance. Assuming his reputation is still solid, that's where I'd go to get one.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> For anyone feeling inspired (I guess by Ric, not by me) to try their hand at a DIY Sea-Gull, we got the kits special-order via Jun at "Times International" (aka "Good Stuffs"). At least back then, he was the only source for them. You had to email him to get one, and PayPal the money in advance. Assuming his reputation is still solid, that's where I'd go to get one.


I recently saw a DIY dive watch kit advertised on Instagram. Think it came with an NH35 too.

Funny(or was it _un_funny) part of that. I happened to click on the "comments" portion of that ad. Lots of folks saying how cool it was, yada yada... then there's one clown telling everyone this watch _cannot_ be called a dive watch _because_...

_drumroll_

It wasn't ISO rated.

They're everywhere it seems.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

One of the best moments of my error-filled foray into the watch world, was actually finding one of the tiny fu***ng screws after I'd shot it across the room.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> One of the best moments of my error-filled foray into the watch world, was actually finding one of the tiny fu***ng screws after I'd shot it across the room.


That actually hilarious.

And I feel ya. I dropped that stupid effing seconds hand onto my carpet. Twice.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm in the middle of a Vostok mod frenzy at the moment. Three down, waiting for parts for a fourth. Also, my poor SKX is getting yet another facelift.

Learning to mod was excruciating. Seconds hands...? So frustrating. Also [p-ting] oh f' where did that tiny screw go...?

But, with practice... here's the one I threw together yesterday.










I did the brass one last week, and yesterday, swapped cases with the GMT.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> One of the best moments of my error-filled foray into the watch world, was actually finding one of the tiny fu***ng screws after I'd shot it across the room.


Finding a spring bar in the carpet is like being Indiana Jones and figuring out how to spell Yahweh in Aramaic on some thousand year old stones, on his way to finding the holy grail.

Also a true story...

About a year or so ago, I found a sword hand on the floor of my office. I had no idea where it'd come from, as it's been ages since I tried a mod, and I wasn't even living in the same house. I thought it must have somehow gotten in with some stuff my factory had sent me, which didn't exactly instil confidence.

About a month later, I figured it out. The handset supplier's catalog has physical samples in tiny little pouches near the front cover. Apparently I've been dropping hands out of it every time I pull it out, and leaving them scattered around my workspace.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’m on a bit of a mod/build frenzy over the last year or so, I think I’m around 24ish in...

It’s a good thing I’ve a cat and not a parrot..


Linguistics get a bit salty when I’m fitting a crown stem, or minutes hands(weirdly wrecked, or lost into the single sockverse, about 12 or so of those jerks).


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I'm on a bit of a mod/build frenzy over the last year or so, I think I'm around 24ish in...
> 
> It's a good thing I've a cat and not a parrot..
> 
> ...


Worried about "fowl" language?









Parrots forced to separate at zoo for excessive swearing - WWAY TV


A British wildlife sanctuary has been forced to separate five parrots who wouldn't stop swearing at visitors.




www.wwaytv3.com


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MuckyMark said:


>


OMG is that skin-cheese all over the end-link?!??!

[retch...]

Just kidding. Great shot.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Those "double points" Subs listed, do they come on the new for Fall 2020 type bracelets with the sharper endlinks? Or depends on the model? Asking about the Sauro in particular.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

docvail said:


> OMG is that skin-cheese all over the end-link?!??!
> 
> [retch...]
> 
> Just kidding. Great shot.


JHTDC you made do a double take. Nope it's just fluff off my hoodie.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Those "double points" Subs listed, do they come on the new for Fall 2020 type bracelets with the sharper endlinks? Or depends on the model? Asking about the Sauro in particular.


Nope. They're the v.2 bracelet.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

MuckyMark said:


>


Geez pictures like this make me wish my wrist was bigger so I could rock the devil ray without feeling like I look like a 12 year old


----------



## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

today I was carrying in groceries and as I set the bags down, one of them must have caught the bezel of my barracuda just right and popped it off. I didn't even realize until I saw it sitting on the carpet. fortunately I found the inner ring and was able to re-seat the bezel with spring ring underneath. How easy should it be for this bezel to pop off? does the spring clip need to be replaced? This watch has become my daily and now I'm hesitant to wear it for fear of losing the bezel.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> today I was carrying in groceries and as I set the bags down, one of them must have caught the bezel of my barracuda just right and popped it off. I didn't even realize until I saw it sitting on the carpet. fortunately I found the inner ring and was able to re-seat the bezel with spring ring underneath. How easy should it be for this bezel to pop off? does the spring clip need to be replaced? This watch has become my daily and now I'm hesitant to wear it for fear of losing the bezel.


It should not be that easy.

You know what is easy though?

Getting product support through the NTH website, or by email to [email protected].


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> It should not be that easy.
> 
> You know what is easy though?
> 
> Getting product support through the NTH website, or by email to [email protected].


Thank you. I knew you reply here quickly so figured asking if it should have, or is, that easy, was faster. I just sent an email to the support email.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Finally got the right screw driver in so I was able to wear my Dolphin. Didn't think it was possible but my Nacken has been replaced as my favorite watch in the collection


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

seatega said:


> Geez pictures like this make me wish my wrist was bigger so I could rock the devil ray without feeling like I look like a 12 year old


Not sure if it matters but my wrist is a shade over 7". I hate to use a cliche but it wears small. The short lugs really help.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

seatega said:


> Finally got the right screw driver in so I was able to wear my Dolphin. Didn't think it was possible but my Nacken has been replaced as my favorite watch in the collection
> View attachment 15531799


"What an incredible Cinderella story. This unknown comes outta nowhere to lead the pack at Augusta..."

-Carl Spackler

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## taurnilf (Sep 30, 2013)

Will the Odin be available again?

TIA.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

taurnilf said:


> Will the Odin be available again?
> 
> TIA.


If you're ok with used








NTH Odin Blue watch, no date version, excellent condition | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH Odin Blue watch, no date version, excellent condition at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

taurnilf said:


> Will the Odin be available again?
> 
> TIA.


The blue MIGHT be. The black almost certainly will NOT be.

We've got nearly new versions of both on the NTH website. Otherwise, I'd set up alerts on eBay and WatchRecon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is the last Näcken Vintage Black (a with Date - don't let the pic on their website fool you) left in the world. We probably won't be producing them again for at least another year, maybe two.









NTH Nacken Vintage W/ Date – FiveFortyFive


military divers quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. rugged style NTH Nacken Vintage Black w/Date Anti-Reflective Sapphire 300M FACTORY WARRANTY 2 YEARS big-crown, no crown-guard case, with a slightly raised, double-domed, anti-reflective sapphire crystal sloped




fivefortyfive.nz


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Feeling gilty today...









Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Widthshelter (Oct 12, 2020)

docvail said:


> Boom.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Wish I wasn't so far down the waitlist!


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Widthshelter said:


> Wish I wasn't so far down the waitlist!


Bet you will be OK.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Widthshelter said:


> Wish I wasn't so far down the waitlist!


Don't put too much stock in that. We're finding a lot of guys on the wait list must be a bit hazy on the purpose of said list.


----------



## ismit (Dec 29, 2019)

NTH Barracuda - Vintage Black
Hi there, thanks to local active pal Elijah, I got this wonderful NTH Barracuda, my first NTH watch. It's also my first experience with a SUB style, 40mm case. I love it really, mostly due to it's thickness of 11,5mm. That is really not usual with Seiko divers, neither CW divers I've tried..
I'll not do a full review here, but here are few points that were important/interesting to me.
Again, the case and its thickness is awesome. Watch looks much better and more proportional than renders on website. BOR is great, could taper a bit more, but whatever, just the clasp safeguard clicks very heavily (certain force needed), just matter of getting used to. Lume is really good, just I've realized I'm not a big fan of heavy lumed bezel inserts. It's distracting during the night. I really look at it every night so i need 12 index distinct from others and of course decent layer on hands. I would love to have 12 index bigger - it seems even the master had it bigger. Golden details are fantastic! Movement, accuracy is pretty fine, it's first Myota for me and the rotor that keeps spinning sometimes almost 20 sec is really fun, i like it, but 1st time I was a bit scared where the sound comes from after putting watch down on the shelf that even resonated the sound. Thank you!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ismit said:


> NTH Barracuda - Vintage Black
> Hi there, thanks to local active pal Elijah, I got this wonderful NTH Barracuda, my first NTH watch. From the divers I've experienced some Seikos and C.Ward so far.
> It's also my first experience with a SUB style, 40mm case. I love it really, mostly due to it's thickness of 11,5mm. That is really not usual with Seiko divers, neither CW divers I've tried..
> I'll not do a full review here, but here are few points that were important/interesting to me.
> ...


Glad you like it, and happy to hear the transaction with Elijah went well.

If you're really not keen on the fully-lumed bezel insert, the Carolina's insert was nearly identical, except only the pip at 12 was lumed. The rest of the markers were just white paint. We sell them, here - Replacement Bezel Insert for NTH Subs


----------



## ismit (Dec 29, 2019)

@docvail thanks! I'll consider buying one.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Don't put too much stock in that. We're finding a lot of guys on the wait list must be a bit hazy on the purpose of said list.


Lord know I wasn't hazy in the slightest. Especially after his email blast about the Rosso and the fact he was only getting two DLC versions. I received his email that they were up for sale at 10:26am, I had my purchase confirmation email by 10:30am.

FedEx tracking has it at the sorting facility in Dallas, scheduled for arrival tomorrow.

Was it 5 or 10 DLC Rosso? Either way, that's what I call a limited edition.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Lord know I wasn't hazy in the slightest. Especially after his email blast about the Rosso and the fact he was only getting two DLC versions. I received his email that they were up for sale at 10:26am, I had my purchase confirmation email by 10:30am.
> 
> FedEx tracking has it at the sorting facility in Dallas, scheduled for arrival tomorrow.
> 
> Was it 5 or 10 DLC Rosso? Either way, that's what I call a limited edition.


We assembled 5 DLC on that one, with the possibility we might assemble another 5 in a future production run.

Basically, the numbers for this release break down thus:

50 pieces per model, if there are both date and no-dates being made - 25 date / 25 no-date.

If there's only a no-date version, than it's just 25 no-dates (as in the case with the Nazario and the Scorpène White).

If there's a DLC version, it's 5 of each.

Then, we take 5 of what's left, and put those on BOR bracelets.

The rest are stainless case, on the oyster bracelet.

So...for the Nazario, it was 5 DLC, 5 stainless on BOR, and 15 stainless on oyster. We made 50 dials, but only assembled 25 for this release. Hence, we might make another 25, including another 5 DLC in the future.

For the non-DLC models, it was 5 on BOR, 20 on oyster.

Depending on how things shake out with each release, Watch Gauge is typically taking 40%-50% of whatever we assemble, so, with 5 DLC's, he got 2 of each.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sweet!

Suite?

Sooo-wweeet!


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Sweet!
> 
> Suite?
> 
> ...


Soooo, Instagram car sales influencer.

I am officially old.

Also, suite bern Doc....

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Soooo, Instagram car sales influencer.
> 
> I am officially old.
> 
> ...


Sometimes, I have to admit, it's pretty awesome being me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I really think our case factory outdid themselves with the finishing on the 2K1's.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Excellent! Where are the <40s?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Excellent! Where are the <40s?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Shush!

But seriously, don't you have a Frankenwatch to assemble?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

In the mail, bro. You'll hate it, as always


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









Dog tax

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ok, this really cracked me up. Andrew's (@hwa ) photo was blocked and labeled "sensitive content not recommended for those under 18). Knowing what I know, I thought "this could be bad" but looked anyway. Of course I did. What on God's green earth did the "system" think that was?!? I can only imagine...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Ok, this really cracked me up. Andrew's (@hwa ) photo was blocked and labeled "sensitive content not recommended for those under 18). Knowing what I know, I thought "this could be bad" but looked anyway. Of course I did. What on God's green earth did the "system" think that was?!? I can only imagine...


I've been seeing that on numerous mundane pictures lately.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I saw it too, and had the same reaction. 


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Received my new Barracuda a couple of days ago. This replaces one I had but sold. Runs a little fast, but that's wound and unworn. I'll give it some time to settle in. But overall it's a great watch. Wearing today!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Received my new Barracuda a couple of days ago. This replaces one I had but sold. Runs a little fast, but that's wound and unworn. I'll give it some time to settle in. But overall it's a great watch. Wearing today!


Nice!

According to watchmaker Dan's observation, it seems the Miyota 9 series running a little fast is more typical than running a little slow.

It also seems like regulating them to around +8 seconds per day (or less), dial up, nets the best overall performance, when we look at how the watch runs in all positions. So that's the target Dan shoots for while doing final QC.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Much as I like the stock bracelet (3-link v2), time for this watch to go back on the EO MN strap...


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> According to watchmaker Dan's observation, it seems the Miyota 9 series running a little fast is more typical than running a little slow.
> 
> It also seems like regulating them to around +8 seconds per day (or less), dial up, nets the best overall performance, when we look at how the watch runs in all positions. So that's the target Dan shoots for while doing final QC.


That's exactly what it's running! And so far today, on the wrist it is keeping perfect time!! 
Love it when a (the) plan comes together.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Welp. I went blue!










Still love the raised indices.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Much as I like the stock bracelet (3-link v2), time for this watch to go back on the EO MN strap...
> 
> View attachment 15534039
> 
> ...


It's odd the steel bezel gives the perception the watch looks big. Which I know it isn't.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> It's odd the steel bezel gives the perception the watch looks big. Which I know it isn't.


Huh... well, on my end. the silver bezel - vs. the OG black bezel - makes the dial look smaller, and IMO the watch wears smaller as a result. Visually, I like the way the dots on the bezel complement the indexes on the dial, and appreciate he utility of the 12hr/countdown function. Also, the way the red triangle really works with the red stripe in this particular strap. (However, I did save the Nomad bezel, just picked up a Scorpene black bezel, and am convinced the blue Vanguard bezel wouldn't look hideous on this, either...)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Welp. I went blue!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And? What's the verdict on the blue? Is it really blue, or not really blue, or kinda-sorta-greenish blue, or mostly just a grayish blue?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Deleted


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Last Nacken Vintage Black left in the world - NTH Nacken Vintage


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Please, everyone, no matter what your question or concern is, if it relates to a watch you received from us, new or used, I don't want to get into it here, for what ought to be obvious reasons. We have a contact page on the website, and a customer support email, for handling all of it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Edited, and done. 

Apologies Doc. Call it anxiousness.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Deleted


Quoted

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> And? What's the verdict on the blue? Is it really blue, or not really blue, or kinda-sorta-greenish blue, or mostly just a grayish blue?


The dial is exactly what I hoped. A deep, almost-grayish (yes I know that's not technically accurate) navy blue.

The bezel is exactly what I feared. It is kinda-sorta-teal-tinted blue in most light, and the metallic shine is way shiner than the black.

So in the case of the bezel and the dial colors, it is as expected.

What I did not expect was how much I like it. Don't get me wrong, I would not have spent this much on a watch if I didn't expect to like it. I expected to like it. I just did not expect I would like it _this much._

I would have preferred a more navy blue bezel. I would have preferred matching colors. I would still prefer a finer coin-edge bezel like the Black Bay. But what can't be denied is how well the Nacken sub works as a _whole._

The idea was that I would get this in hand, compare with the black and make a final decision on which one I preferred.

...I'm not sure I can make that decision!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> Quoted
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Whoops


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Actually Doc, I do have a question: the black Nacken is newer. (V3? It came with the newer bracelet, box has the picture on it) and has totally flat indices. The blue is older (I think a V2, it came with a V1 bracelet and older generic box but has date at 6) and it’s indices have a slight bump where the lume is applied. 

I actually prefer the slightly raised lume on the blue, so this is more for my own curiosity, but was there a change in how the lume was applied later on that enabled you to cover the full surface of the indices?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> The dial is exactly what I hoped. A deep, almost-grayish (yes I know that's not technically accurate) navy blue.


Technically, shmechnically. It is a grayish blue, which is what I personally think is "wrong" with it, if there is anything wrong with it.

Blame it on Aaron and his penchant for low saturation colors.



RotorRonin said:


> The bezel is exactly what I feared. It is kinda-sorta-teal-tinted blue in most light, and the metallic shine is way shiner than the black.
> 
> So in the case of the bezel and the dial colors, it is as expected.
> 
> ...


If you want the dial and bezel to match, as I would, that's the blue we used on the Odin's dial, and the new 2K1's, and what I'm considering switching to for a future iteration (not the December release, but perhaps thereafter).

But, of course, the bezel won't be changing. That's something you either need to like, or just learn to live with.

I think you've found what many have - the total package is greater than the sum of its parts. I attribute it to Rusty's phenomenal case design, Aaron's getting all the proportions of bezel-dial-markers-hands right, and my factory's ability to produce quality.

We can always find a collection of similar components, assembled and sold for less, but we can't always find a watch we'll like as much, or more, for less.

But, as I always say, if there's something out there that you like more, and it costs less, go buy it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Actually Doc, I do have a question: the black Nacken is newer. (V3? It came with the newer bracelet, box has the picture on it) and has totally flat indices. The blue is older (I think a V2, it came with a V1 bracelet and older generic box but has date at 6) and it's indices have a slight bump where the lume is applied.
> 
> I actually prefer the slightly raised lume on the blue, so this is more for my own curiosity, but was there a change in how the lume was applied later on that enabled you to cover the full surface of the indices?


I may need some visual aids to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, but I'll attempt an answer based on the understanding I have now...

I'm not aware of any changes made to the dials, at least not those of either the Modern Black or the Modern Blue. As far as I'm aware, the construction of each, and the processes used are the same, and they differ only in their base colors.

If you detect a difference, then the possible explanations are:

1. My vendor made some improvement they didn't bother to tell me about (it's happened before).

2. It could be there's some instance of "acceptable variation" you're seeing, which results in one dial appearing to have more "heaped" lume on the markers, compared to the other.

3. It could be you're seeing the effects of the lume "settling" in over time. The lume is applied as a liquid, then left to dry. It may be that there's some void space under the surface, which gets compressed out over time.

I've seen how lume gets applied when the markers are printed. It's done with pad printing. I'm not certain how it's done with applied markers, but I think it's done by hand, which would lead to more variation from one dial to the next, or even one index to the next, on the same dial.


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Doc - I am curios, for the polar white barracuda is it completely white or is it a little off white? It looks off-white on the pic you shared but I am thinking that it could just be the lighting. .


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pablo.Flox said:


> Doc - I am curios, for the polar white barracuda is it completely white or is it a little off white? It looks off-white on the pic you shared but I am thinking that it could just be the lighting. .


The dial is totally white. The markers are light blue.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Pablo.Flox said:


> Doc - I am curios, for the polar white barracuda is it completely white or is it a little off white? It looks off-white on the pic you shared but I am thinking that it could just be the lighting. .


I've got the white Swiftsure as well as the (white) Nazario Sauro. If NTH says white, its white as fresh snow.


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Excellent


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I've got the white Swiftsure as well as the (white) Nazario Sauro. If NTH says white, its white as fresh snow.


Unless it's a full-lume, C3 dial, as in the Santa Fe, Nacken Vintage White, and the new Scorpene White.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I may need some visual aids to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, but I'll attempt an answer based on the understanding I have now...
> 
> I'm not aware of any changes made to the dials, at least not those of either the Modern Black or the Modern Blue. As far as I'm aware, the construction of each, and the processes used are the same, and they differ only in their base colors.
> 
> ...


I had to steal someone else's photo because my iPhone photography couldn't pick it up. In the picture below you can see the edge of the lume on the indices.

On my black, you can't see it, but straining my eyes I think I might be able to make out the slight texture difference at the lume edge.

I think your guess that it is lume being "heaped on" is it.

Thanks for indulging my nerdy question!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I had to steal someone else's photo because my iPhone photography couldn't pick it up. In the picture below you can see the edge of the lume on the indices.
> 
> On my black, you can't see it, but straining my eyes I think I might be able to make out the slight texture difference at the lume edge.
> 
> ...


That may be it, maybe, I dunno.

As far as I'm aware, the frames of the indices on both models is "painted" (for lack of a better term) white, and then the lume patches are filled in with liquid lume. It's the same with the hands - frames painted white, lume patches filled with lume.

I don't think they ever coated the entire markers (nor the hands) with lume, and I suspect that if you examined both watches, in the dark, with the lume glowing, you'd be able to see where the lume stops and the painted frames start - on both watches.

As for the..."elevation" (topographically speaking) of the lume patches, chalk it up to any number of possible causes - variation due to the human-hand application, difference in their age, a new dial supplier (maybe, I think, I forget).


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## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

awrose said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great photos, you really show the watch off to it's advantage. It's a smasher ?


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Don't put too much stock in that. We're finding a lot of guys on the wait list must be a bit hazy on the purpose of said list.


I am on the list and received my email from John to purchase the Polar Barracuda. I called and chatted with him, and I decided to go with the white no-date Swiftsure. I didn't think there would be any available still, but I knew if I had the choice between the two, one of them would be coming my way.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

What is the lug width on the Swiftsure? 22?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

WeirdGuy said:


> What is the lug width on the Swiftsure? 22?


Si


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Thanks!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

WeirdGuy said:


> Thanks!


Outside of its OEM bracelet, the white swiftsure(and seeing as they're so similar, the polar barracuda) were made for orange rubber.

My Swifty on an orange Zuludiver.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

That looks really good.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

I think I'm going to grab an Obris Morgan strap for it in their Aqua Blue.









22mm Vanilla Scented Natural Rubber Strap - AquaBlue


Vintage Style rubber strapEasy matching with different types of Divers Watch. Making of Natural Rubber - Soft but Strength.Tech Spec- Width 22mm / 20mm- Length 80mm / 135mm- Thickness 5mmPrice- 18.90 USDShipping Cost- Free Shipping by registered airmail



www.obrismorgan.com


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

hwa said:


> In the mail, bro. You'll hate it, as always
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what the forum thought this picture was of, but it said I had to be 18 or older to view. So, like any guy with testosterone, I quickly clicked on the pic so it would show up. Not going to say I was disappointed that it was a dogs muzzle, but I'd being lying if I said I wasn't hoping for something female related.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Outside of its OEM bracelet, the white swiftsure(and seeing as they're so similar, the polar barracuda) were made for orange rubber.
> 
> My Swifty on an orange Zuludiver.
> View attachment 15536524


I'm not usually a fan of orange straps, or bright colored straps in general, but this combo is fantastic


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

WeirdGuy said:


> I think I'm going to grab an Obris Morgan strap for it in their Aqua Blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one definitely looks like another good color for it


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

seatega said:


> I'm not usually a fan of orange straps, or bright colored straps in general, but this combo is fantastic


I was _kinda_ firmly planted in your camp not too long ago. Then around the time I bought my Lüm-Tec 350-M2(the blue dial variant), someone on this thread posted a shot of a Näcken blue on an orange canvas strap and I thought it looked killer.

Then Doc showed the white Swiftsure. When I saw the subtle orange accents, I thought the strap might be able to pull double duty. I think I was right.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Odin black restroom pic after eating breakfast in the sun


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

In the 'never-say-never' file we have me swearing for years I'd never buy a watch with snowflake hands. Not ever!

Just ordered two.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> In the 'never-say-never' file we have me swearing for years I'd never buy a watch with snowflake hands. Not ever!
> 
> Just ordered two.
> 
> View attachment 15537437


Awesome, and thanks for your business!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tanker G1 said:


> In the 'never-say-never' file we have me swearing for years I'd never buy a watch with snowflake hands. Not ever!
> 
> Just ordered two.
> 
> View attachment 15537437


You can still be a contrarian since you picked some pretty out there models. Not the crowd favorite modern blue.

Would love to see pictures. Especially the black one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Love the Bahia. Stands out to me as having an even more old school vibe than most of the other Subs.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just in case you don't read your emails, NTH is offering double loyalty rewards until the end of the year. Al your loyalty rewards points are worth double what they usually are.

If you're not familiar with our loyalty rewards program, check out the rewards widget at the bottom of our website.

We're also including free shipping and a free UV torch on any new watch ordered through the NTH website. The models we have available are here - Available to order direct from NTH website

Because I know I'll get questions:

1. No, your purchases aren't worth double points. Your existing points are worth double what they usually are.

Every 5,000 points are usually worth $25 off, every 10,000 were worth $50 off, etc. But until the end of the year, all the usual rewards are double what they usually are. So now every 5,000 points are worth $50 off, ever 10,000 are worth $100 off, etc.

If you buy a $700 watch, with a $50 off coupon, your net total is $650, which will add 6500 loyalty points to your account, same as it always has. The 10 points per $1 spent ratio is unchanged.

2. No, if you have an old coupon code you created before October 30th, it isn't now automatically worth twice as much at checkout.

If you want to get double rewards, email us to cancel that existing coupon code, and we'll add the points you used to create that code back to your loyalty points account, so you can create a new double rewards coupon code.

3. No, double rewards aren't available for every model, just those available to order directly from the NTH website, while inventory lasts. Click that link above to see what models we have available.

The list includes some DevilRay, some 40mm Subs, and some 2K1's.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Long time lurker, first time poster to the thread.

I just wanted to send a massive thankyou to all at NTH for re-releasing the Devilray earlier this year.

Unfortunately I did not find out about the Devilray until after the first release was all sold out and with my own budget constraints and the scarcity of these appearing on the secondhand market, I thought that the Devilray would be a one of those watches that I would only ever be able to dream of owning as I searched through photos on the internet.

So to find out that there was a V2 release in 2020 I was in a position to catch a Devilray of my own, and once I got it my hands the already lofty expectations that I had for it........ was exceeded, the fit & finish, case shape, bracelet, dial and handset, bezel action, alignment, all of it, everything to the smallest detail, this watch (for me at least) is as close to perfection for a dive watch that I have ever owned.

For the price these are the best value for money, so much so I picked up 1 in each available colourway and a big thanks to John at WatchGauge for killer customer service with the purchases.

As all watch enthusiasts will understand there is 1 or 2 watches in their watch collection that makes them feel truly special when they wear the watch, the Devilray is that watch to me so again thankyou.

Photos or it didn't happen-


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Dtn8 said:


> Long time lurker, first time poster to the thread.
> 
> I just wanted to send a massive thankyou to all at NTH for re-releasing the Devilray earlier this year.
> 
> ...











Look out for the v2 Tropics next year!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> Long time lurker, first time poster to the thread.
> 
> I just wanted to send a massive thankyou to all at NTH for re-releasing the Devilray earlier this year.
> 
> ...


Nice!

This post just made my night!

Thanks for your business, the kind words, and the feedback about our team and Watch Gauge.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

WeirdGuy said:


> I'm not sure what the forum thought this picture was of, but it said I had to be 18 or older to view. So, like any guy with testosterone, I quickly clicked on the pic so it would show up. Not going to say I was disappointed that it was a dogs muzzle, but I'd being lying if I said I wasn't hoping for something female related.


Here's the rest of him:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Is that a Giant Schnauzer?


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

hwa said:


> Here's the rest of him:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hope his name is Steiff. Great photo. He is a joy to behold.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FYI, for anyone who thinks they missed out on one...

John at Watch Gauge got an unworn return of an Amphion Vintage Gilt, with date. It's the last new one left available anywhere.









Amphion Vintage Gilt Date


Don't think of it as retro. The NTH Subs are our tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period. Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic, rugged style...




watchgauge.com


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

That polar white is turning me on!


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

The more I see the black dialed Thresher, the more I want it. Might have to add one after I see how my Swiftsure wears on wrist.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pablo.Flox said:


> That polar white is turning me on!


It's really a beauty, innit?

ME: "I really like this, and want to add the photo sample I set aside to my personal collection, but I know I'll rarely wear it."

DAN: "I'll take it!"

ME: "Well...then I guess that settles that..."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> The more I see the black dialed Thresher, the more I want it. Might have to add one after I see how my Swiftsure wears on wrist.


I really like how the Threshers came out. I was semi-afraid they were too plain.

I freely admit we took some influence from the Tudor Pelagos, but hopefully people will see the little things we did differently. Not just the different handset, but also how none of the indices are square, the little touch of color with the turquoise print, the fully-indexed bezel, and the way the cut-out in the chapter ring hugs the 12 marker, as opposed to being cut straight down, as it is on the Pelagos.

FUN FACT - the Thresher design actually borrows more from the Ball Engineer Master II Skindiver than it does from the Pelagos.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

That Barracuda Polar _does_ look good.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> I really like how the Threshers came out. I was semi-afraid they were too plain.
> 
> I freely admit we took some influence from the Tudor Pelagos, but hopefully people will see the little things we did differently. Not just the different handset, but also how none of the indices are square, the little touch of color with the turquoise print, the fully-indexed bezel, and the way the cut-out in the chapter ring hugs the 12 marker, as opposed to being cut straight down, as it is on the Pelagos.
> 
> FUN FACT - the Thresher design actually borrows more from the Ball Engineer Master II Skindiver than it does from the Pelagos.


I have always liked the Pelagos, and have been very close to picking up the blue titanium version a few times. I owned a Nacken Modern Black with date and I loved the way it looked, but sold it because Im not much of a date guy unless it comes no other way (and if the date window is positioned in a way that I will be able to live with). I was able to grab the last NMB from John, so thats why I got the date version at the time. BTW, to your credit, I liked how the NMB had the date window above the 6 hour marker. That is probably the best place for a date window aesthetically, IMO.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As long as I'm doing "last one" updates...

Last Amphion Vintage Gilt left in the world (a with date) - Amphion Vintage Gilt Date

Last Dolphin Ice left in the world (a no date) - NTH Dolphin Ice No Date

Last Näcken Vintage Black left in the world (a with date, the no-date image notwithstanding) - NTH Nacken Vintage


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Chris apologies if this is listed somewhere, but how many DLC Thresher no-dates were made? I saw WatchGauge has only date versions.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Chris apologies if this is listed somewhere, but how many DLC Thresher no-dates were made? I saw WatchGauge has only date versions.


Five total.

If you're looking for one, there are 2 left...









NTH Thresher Black DLC No Date


The NTH Thresher Black DLC No Date is a high quality diving watch. The technical aspects are very impressive: double domed sapphire glass with an AR coating, 610m (61ATM) water resistance, a 120 click uni-directional bezel with (coated) steel insert and of course a great Made in Japan automatic...




www.seriouswatches.com













2K1 Subs - Thresher - DLC| NTH Watches Hong Kong


The 2K1 Subs are our tribute to the world’s first diving watches fitted with helium escape valves, made for record-setting, deep-depth saturation diving in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s.




www.thewatchdrobe.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

WeirdGuy said:


> That Barracuda Polar _does_ look good.


What WeirdGuy said x2. The Polar looks amazing!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Five total.
> 
> If you're looking for one, there are 2 left...
> 
> ...


Thanks, Chris!

Just curiosity here but, how come you chose not to lume the bezel insert on the Polar Swiftsure? It doesn't bother me, again, just curious.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...about them Polars...

John should have his inventory tomorrow. He's already sold a bunch to peeps on his wait list. He told me he'd be making that model visible on his website tonight. 

So, if you're on his wait list, I'd look at your email for his invoice. And if you're not on his wait list, I'd be checking his website frequently between now and later tonight, especially if you wanted a no-date.

Otherwise, your next best bet is Serious Watches, then IntoWatch in S.Korea, then Five:45 in New Zealand, then the WatchDrobe in Hong Kong. They should all be getting their inventory sometime this week. It couldn't hurt to contact any of them, to ask to be contacted when they go on sale.

I'd offer to sell you the photo sample I took out of inventory, but Dan was on that like a fat kid on cake.

It appears that our retail partners have already sold through more than 1/3 of this most recent release (not just the Polars, I'm talking about all models/versions combined). 

Because we made so many different versions, with all the date/no-date, oyster/BOR, and DLC/stainless options, it looks like there's only about 5 or 6 pieces left, per version, on average.

The Näcken Modern Blue and Barracuda Vintage Black are going fast, as usual.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Thanks, Chris!
> 
> Just curiosity here but, how come you chose not to lume the bezel insert on the Polar Swiftsure? It doesn't bother me, again, just curious.


We could lume it if we made the markers white, or if we used black lume.

Black lume is all but pointless. It's not very bright at all, and doesn't last very long.

I don't mind how the white lume looks on the stainless bezels we've done, like the Dolphins, but we thought the black markers would look better against the stainless background, so that's what we did.

Again, I don't mind admitting where our inspiration comes from - look at the "Polar" Exploer II GMT. Except for the Merc hands and the "we'll just end things here" crown guards, that's a beautifully designed watch.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Well, I like the look, so I think you chose wisely. And I agree, the Rolex Explorer II is a great looking watch.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

The white Barracuda looks great in the pics!


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Doc, how good is the lume in the Polar? I have no experience with blue lume like that


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

mattm0691 said:


> Doc, how good is the lume in the Polar? I have no experience with blue lume like that


It's fantastic.


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

WeirdGuy said:


> It's fantastic.


Have you actually seen one in person?


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

mattm0691 said:


> Have you actually seen one in person?


Not yet. Mine will be here this week, but I've had another NTH with blue lume and it too was fantastic. Im sure the lume on the new 2k1's/Polar is just as good or better.


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

WeirdGuy said:


> Not yet. Mine will be here this week, but I've had another NTH with blue lume and it too was fantastic. Im sure the lume on the new 2k1's is just as good or better.


I'm sure it'll be good too, knowing nth's reputation for lume... I'm just a bit wary of odd colored lumes. What other nth came with blue lume?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mattm0691 said:


> Have you actually seen one in person?


Its the exact same as the white Swiftsure. Which I posted A shot of last night, scroll back a page or two.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

mattm0691 said:


> I'm sure it'll be good too, knowing nth's reputation for lume... I'm just a bit wary of odd colored lumes. What other nth came with blue lume?


Nacken Modern Black sub.

Edit: I apologize. I just looked at pics I took of mine and it was more of a bluish-green color.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Its the exact same as the white Swiftsure. Which I posted A shot of last night, scroll back a page or two.


I saw that, and it does look good in that photo, but it's easy to make any lume look like a torch with a uv light and the right exposure. How's the longevity of the lume?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mattm0691 said:


> I saw that, and it does look good in that photo, but it's easy to make any lume look like a torch with a uv light and the right exposure. How's the longevity of the lume?


Better than my Sauro. On par with my Tikuna.

Edit: heres some quick 15m time lapse shots. 
















Tikuna - Swiftsure - Sauro - Rosso


----------



## Andfit91 (Oct 26, 2020)

Hey everyone, just wanted to confirm that the NTH subs all use a 90S5 on their non-date versions to eliminate the phantom date position...this has always been a point of contention with me! Apologies if this was answered earlier, I couldn't really search through the 200+ pages. Currently I own a Dolphin sub w/ date. The hands are gorgeous and the applied markers too- but I just find it too monochrome. Silver dial, silver bezel, silver bracelet. I was thinking of selling it and going with a Vanguard or something else. Huge fan of the NTH blue, though I haven't seen it in person. Any opinions on that or other models I should look into? Thanks!


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Andfit91 said:


> ...just wanted to confirm that the NTH subs all use a 90S5 on their non-date versions to eliminate the phantom date position...


I noticed this on my new Barracuda. Well done, NTH!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Touchdown!









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

kpjimmy said:


> Touchdown!
> View attachment 15541667
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Damn dude, that looks amazing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Beautiful watch! Just waiting for Serious Watches to start sending them out now so I can join the club.


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Better than my Sauro. On par with my Tikuna.
> 
> Edit: heres some quick 15m time lapse shots.
> View attachment 15541217
> ...


This is great. Thank you much


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Doc, how good is the lume in the Polar? I have no experience with blue lume like that


It's not one of the standard colors you see on Tritec's chart comparing relative brightness of the various Superluminova colors (the one below), so I can't be 100% certain how it compares to C3 (the brightest on that chart) or BG W9.

Generally speaking:

1. Darker lume colors tend to be not quite as bright as C3, but this blue is pretty light, as blues go.

2. Our vendor delivers outstanding lume quality / quantity, so we don't get many complaints about our lume (or any, really), and so I don't expect there to be any complaints about it.

3. Notwithstanding what I said above, about it not being on this chart, it actually may be that "light blue", but I can't be sure...

We chose the lume color for the white Swiftsure and Barracuda Polar White from a much longer list of Tritec's developed lume colors. Those colors were listed as - wait for it - Pantone colors.

It's supposed to be the same turquoise we used for on the black Thresher and Swiftsure, which is the same we used for the turquoise on the DevilRay's depth gauge (and the turquoise v.1 DR dial).

If it is the same color that appears on this chart, then it's the same brightness as "natural", which is the lume color we used on the vintage Näckens, and on the Amphion Commando, with good results, by all accounts.

I hope that helps.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's not one of the standard colors you see on Tritec's chart comparing relative brightness of the various Superluminova colors (the one below), so I can't be 100% certain how it compares to C3 (the brightest on that chart) or BG W9.
> 
> Generally speaking:
> 
> ...


Can I express again how much I enjoy the fact that you answer these kinds of questions?

One of the great privileges of the current day is being able to directly connect with boutique makers of my favorite things and hearing them answer nerdy questions about their industry and products.

Thanks.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mattm0691 said:


> Doc, how good is the lume in the Polar? I have no experience with blue lume like that


Pretty good actually









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Andfit91 said:


> Hey everyone, just wanted to confirm that the NTH subs all use a 90S5 on their non-date versions to eliminate the phantom date position...this has always been a point of contention with me! Apologies if this was answered earlier, I couldn't really search through the 200+ pages.


Yes and no.

We haven't _always_ used the true no-date movements. We started using them around mid-2019.

Currently (since mid-2019), if a model is only offered as a no-date, the movement is more than likely the 9039, not the 90S5. They're both true no-date movements, but differ slightly in their configuration. The 9039 has a different hands-height than the 9015 and 90S5, which is also an open-heart movement.

If a model is offered as both a with-date and a no-date, then the no-date version uses the 90S5, since, as stated above, the hands-height is the same as the 9015, which avoids problems in assembly, from having two different handsets, which are very hard to differentiate visually.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PS on the lume - 

We also used that "natural" lume color on the dial / hands of the Bahia and the Tikuna, again, with good results, by all accounts.

So...to wrap up...assuming the Polar Barracuda and White Swiftsure use the same "light blue" that appears on Tritec's comparative brightness chart, then it's the same relative brightness (87% of C3 brightness) as the lume used on those other models.

If it is NOT the same color, then all I can say is it's a light blue, and I expect it to be not quite as bright as C3, but bright enough that no one will be complaining about it, at least no one with reasonable expectations regarding lume brightness and duration.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

I'll try to post a lume pic at lunch time. 

On an off note, I have the BoR installed but the stock oyster bracelet, this latest version seems a lot more refined than the Nazario Ghost I last got. It seems a bit thinner but that's not a bad thing, I think it's a perception thing. And I see two half links I don't recall seeing??

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> PS on the lume -
> 
> We also used that "natural" lume color on the dial / hands of the Bahia and the Tikuna, again, with good results, by all accounts.
> 
> ...


Your posts were helpful, I pulled the trigger on a polar from watchgauge just now


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mattm0691 said:


> Your posts were helpful, I pulled the trigger on a polar from watchgauge just now


Don't think you'll regret it










Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Don't think you'll regret it
> 
> View attachment 15541904
> 
> ...


Looks great!!

How blue does the lume look under normal daylight conditions? The explorer that doc cited as being an inspiration looked like it also had blue colored lume, but quite subtle. Is the blue more subtle like that, or more pronounced?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mattm0691 said:


> Looks great!!
> 
> How blue does the lume look under normal daylight conditions? The explorer that doc cited as being an inspiration looked like it also had blue colored lume, but quite subtle. Is the blue more subtle like that, or more pronounced?


In dark room light not sunlight you can see the blue glow as I posted a few back. However in complete darkness it's like the natural like that doc describes. But let me take a pic later today and show you. Hopefully it comes thru.

Edit: re read your question. In normal daylight it's a bit more blue than the polar explorer pictured. Under normal indoor lighting it's this...

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

kpjimmy said:


> Don't think you'll regret it
> 
> View attachment 15541904
> 
> ...


As much as I love the looks of this in the BOR, there's something special about the way it appears on the oyster bracelet. Very vintage looking.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Bloom said:


> As much as I love the looks of this in the BOR, there's something special about the way it appears on the oyster bracelet. Very vintage looking.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks great both. But I wanted to see it on the BoR first lol.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

kpjimmy said:


> Looks great both. But I wanted to see it on the BoR first lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Yours looks great. Have you put it on the oyster yet? Would love to see pics if so.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Bloom said:


> Yours looks great. Have you put it on the oyster yet? Would love to see pics if so.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes I sized it last night but didn't get to take any pictures. I'll try later tonight.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

kpjimmy said:


> Yes I sized it last night but didn't get to take any pictures. I'll try later tonight.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Thanks kpjimmy; I appreciate it!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...at least no one with reasonable expectations regarding lume brightness and duration.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Looks great!!
> 
> How blue does the lume look under normal daylight conditions? The explorer that doc cited as being an inspiration looked like it also had blue colored lume, but quite subtle. Is the blue more subtle like that, or more pronounced?


I'm 62.63% sure that the Rolex's lume is actually white when it isn't glowing, and only appears blue in some pics because it is glowing.

The Swiftsure and Barracuda's lume is not white. It's pale blue, i.e., it's turquoise. It'll only appear white when the camera taking the pic (like mine) doesn't do well transmitting blue tones, and/or if the ambient light is such that it washes out the pic.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> I'll try to post a lume pic at lunch time.
> 
> On an off note, I have the BoR installed but the stock oyster bracelet, this latest version seems a lot more refined than the Nazario Ghost I last got. It seems a bit thinner but that's not a bad thing, I think it's a perception thing. And I see two half links I don't recall seeing??
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Mmmmm...no, I don't think so.

The Ghost and the current Subs share the same bracelet, same links (with same dimensions), same half-links, etc.

The only difference is the new end-links on the current release - they're recessed slightly below the surface of the lugs, and have that more defined center-section.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Mmmmm...no, I don't think so.
> 
> The Ghost and the current Subs share the same bracelet, same links (with same dimensions), same half-links, etc.
> 
> The only difference is the new end-links on the current release - they're recessed slightly below the surface of the lugs, and have that more defined center-section.


Hm. I need to go and reinstall it now lol

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Hm. I need to go and reinstall it now lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I mean...I don't _THINK_ that the bracelet quality varies enough from piece to piece that anyone who had one from this batch and one from some other batch would notice any difference.

The same vendor produced both, to the same standard. Any variation in look or feel should be virtually undetectable by anyone not inspecting them using high-precision instruments.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Doc not disagreeing. Just haven't noticed it till now if that's the case.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ok ! Lil lume shot and lied light shot with the oyster
















Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

kpjimmy said:


> Ok ! Lil lume shot and lied light shot with the oyster
> View attachment 15542396
> View attachment 15542398
> 
> ...


Damn, looks great on both; hard to pick a winner.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Ok ! Lil lume shot and lied light shot with the oyster
> View attachment 15542396
> View attachment 15542398
> 
> ...


Looks awesome, thanks for the pics


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Bloom said:


> Damn, looks great on both; hard to pick a winner.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well it's a nice problem to have lol. Grab and go it's oyster. BoR to the office desk diving lol

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mattm0691 said:


> Looks awesome, thanks for the pics


The lume color is different in darkness...it's hard to convey, lol sorry no pics yet. I'll post later at dusk.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Oyster wins for me, too much going on with the BoR.... But that's just me.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

.









Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Can I express again how much I enjoy the fact that you answer these kinds of questions?
> 
> One of the great privileges of the current day is being able to directly connect with boutique makers of my favorite things and hearing them answer nerdy questions about their industry and products.
> 
> Thanks.


You can express it.

I mean...you just did. A little late for anyone to say so if you weren't allowed to.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Doc not disagreeing. Just haven't noticed it till now if that's the case.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Please don't mistake me or my tone, my friend. I wasn't assuming disagreement, only responding as best I can. If you perceive some difference in the oyster bracelets of the Ghost and your new Barracuda, aside from the end-links, I wouldn't expect that, and I would struggle to explain it.

If there is a noticeable or measurable difference, please let me know, so I can ask my vendor about it. As far as I know, we're using the same bracelet supplier we've had for the last 2-3 years.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Please don't mistake me or my tone, my friend. I wasn't assuming disagreement, only responding as best I can. If you perceive some difference in the oyster bracelets of the Ghost and your new Barracuda, aside from the end-links, I wouldn't expect that, and I would struggle to explain it.
> 
> If there is a noticeable or measurable difference, please let me know, so I can ask my vendor about it. As far as I know, we're using the same bracelet supplier we've had for the last 2-3 years.


Nah I know what you meant, it's cool.

I may be noticing the endlinks. Much like when someone gets a nose job and that totally changes how the face is framed, good or bad lol. In this case good!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Ok ! Lil lume shot and lied light shot with the oyster
> View attachment 15542396
> View attachment 15542398
> 
> ...


Looks very nice on the oyster.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Man... The polar barracuda is really growing on me since people started posting pics of the real thing. Would prefer a black bezel insert but that's easily fixed.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Here is a dusk shot, outside for like a minute checking the mail....









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

92gli said:


> Man... The polar barracuda is really growing on me since people started posting pics of the real thing. Would prefer a black bezel insert but that's easily fixed.


Black bezel and white dials == fantastic

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Here is a dusk shot, outside for like a minute checking the mail....
> View attachment 15542601
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


FWIW - the lume on the bezel is BG W9. The lume on the bezel and hands appears about as bright, at least in this pic.

I don't think we'll have any problems with lume brightness or duration.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

kpjimmy said:


> Pretty good actually
> View attachment 15541852
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Now that looks like a bronzo... not sure you would be wanting to open that can of worms with the Doc....'cause if Nth did a largish chunky kinda bronzo...take my money now! 

Great photo, interesting to see how it looks distinctly bronze!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> FWIW - the lume on the bezel is BG W9. The lume on the bezel and hands appears about as bright, at least in this pic.
> 
> I don't think we'll have any problems with lume brightness or duration.


I honestly figured that it would be fine; I've owned probably a dozen NTHs at this point at various times, and I've always been impressed by the lume, with the exception of the nacken moderns. Anyways, my own polar should be here soon, and I'll add whatever feedback may be helpful here as well


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15539360
> 
> Look out for the v2 Tropics next year!


So what your saying is, I need to put some money aside for the Tropics, right?

And guys, guys, guys! come on, I am all for a good thing but all these pics of the Polar Barracuda, this is going to get expensive for me here.


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Nice!
> 
> This post just made my night!
> 
> Thanks for your business, the kind words, and the feedback about our team and Watch Gauge.


No worries, good people doing good work should be acknowledged.

Photo, because Devilray is Boss


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Don't think you'll regret it
> 
> View attachment 15541904
> 
> ...


Dang. That's a beautiful watch. Actually preferable to the Rolex that inspired it, because I just really love snowflake hands.

...and pure white dials.

I can't buy right now, since I just got the blue Nacken, but I'm pretty sure it's in my future!


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Luckily for me, Watchgauge now list the Polar Barracuda no date as sold out. Now I can quit thinking about this watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Luckily for me, Watchgauge now list the Polar Barracuda no date as sold out. Now I can quit thinking about this watch.


It's still available from Serious Watches, and they do free international shipping.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> It's still available from Serious Watches, and they do free international shipping.


Actually, I just heard from Kaj at Serious - the watches were just delivered there this morning, and the Polar no-date on oyster has already sold out. He's only got it on the BOR now.

We are definitely NOT making more of the Polar for the December release. We'll likely make more in the release after that, to be delivered sometime in the first half of next year (hopefully). Unless you want to wait another 6-8 months, better get your Polar now.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

11/11. Today is the day for us to acknowledge and thank our country's veterans, living, those who have past, and those in progress (currently serving) for their service and sacrifice . We also need to acknowledge and thank their families. 

I know Doc has expressed his opinion about this, but too bad. Thank you Doc. Thank you Snot. Thank you Snot's son (in progress). I haven't listed more because I simply don't know who you are. So please, call out.

Thank you all!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bill Jones (founder, Bill Jones School of Photography) is a vet, as is Rhory, Kendall, and I'm sure at least half a dozen others I'm forgetting, but all forum regulars, and many regulars in these NTH threads.

For $hlts and giggles, this is me and my wife at one of our annual Ranger Balls, held every Christmas. This had to be 1996 or 97. I just posted this to FB earlier today.

The other picture was taken in late summer or early autumn 1999, the day I graduated from language school (Chinese Mandarin), along with some of the other guys in my class. I'm still in touch with the guy on the far right (my immediate left in the pic).


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15544244


Thank you, Captain Obvious.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Hope his name is Steiff. Great photo. He is a joy to behold.


That is Bento, Portuguese Water Dog. He's a fine boy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Bill Jones (founder, Bill Jones School of Photography) is a vet, as is Rhory, Kendall, and I'm sure at least half a dozen others I'm forgetting, but all forum regulars, and many regulars in these NTH threads.
> 
> For $hlts and giggles, this is me and my wife at one of our annual Ranger Balls, held every Christmas. This had to be 1996 or 97. I just posted this to FB earlier today.
> 
> ...


You said "balls"...heh heh!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> You said "balls"...heh heh!


Dirty old man says what?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

My barracuda is in for service and I thought coming here might ease my withdrawal symptoms. how wrong I was. Those polar barracuda's are beautiful.. One of these times I need to get in on the release instead of saving a couple dollars on someone else's catch and release. 

Problem is they sell out so fast that second hand is almost the only option.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

And where do they hold Rangers Balls??? 

In their BoBs 

Thank you, Thank you, I'll be here until they throw me out, please tip generously, our watchmakers have a hard time finding their hands.....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> My barracuda is in for service and I thought coming here might ease my withdrawal symptoms. how wrong I was. Those polar barracuda's are beautiful.. One of these times I need to get in on the release instead of saving a couple dollars on someone else's catch and release.
> 
> Problem is they sell out so fast that second hand is almost the only option.


Reading this, I feel torn between agreeing that yes, they do sell out quickly, so everyone should get what they want before they sell out, and arguing that they don't sell out so quickly that anyone should feel frustrated they weren't able to get what they wanted before they sold out.

There's a balance we're trying to strike, between the two extremes. It's a process of trial and error, figuring out the right production pace and mix, combined with trying to predict the future, and trying to get lucky with the timing of new releases.

I think we're getting better with each iteration. But it's impossible to perfectly match supply and demand. There's always going to be a mismatch, one way or the other.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I would much rather have lower production numbers and a sense of limited availability than a market flooded watches. My lack of getting in on some of these releases is based in part, on being new to the brand, and only recently adding my email address to a few waiting lists. 

I love the chase, the wait "within reason", and the suspense of getting a new watch that really speaks to me. I think you are doing things right and are building excitement while still putting out enough pieces to keep the market happy.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just for grins and giggles:

I know, artificial light. And a phone camera.


----------



## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

I am now part of the club! I need to size the bracelet, the screws are much smaller than I was expecting. None of my mini screwdrivers fit it unfortunately


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Pablo.Flox said:


> View attachment 15545297
> 
> 
> I am now part of the club! I need to size the bracelet, the screws are much smaller than I was expecting. None of my mini screwdrivers fit it unfortunately


That's an awesome shot!! Wow.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Pablo.Flox said:


> View attachment 15545297
> 
> 
> I am now part of the club! I need to size the bracelet, the screws are much smaller than I was expecting. None of my mini screwdrivers fit it unfortunately


That lume is kewl.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Pablo.Flox said:


> View attachment 15545297
> 
> 
> I am now part of the club! I need to size the bracelet, the screws are much smaller than I was expecting. None of my mini screwdrivers fit it unfortunately


I had to get my cheapo glasses kit at work that I got at Walmart. Otherwise I would have needed to wait till I got home to resize it.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Put it on a Nato until I can figure out where to get the bracelet sized. My country is in Lock Down so not so easy!


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> 11/11. Today is the day for us to acknowledge and thank our country's veterans, living, those who have past, and those in progress (currently serving) for their service and sacrifice . We also need to acknowledge and thank their families.
> 
> I know Doc has expressed his opinion about this, but too bad. Thank you Doc. Thank you Snot. Thank you Snot's son (in progress). I haven't listed more because I simply don't know who you are. So please, call out.
> 
> Thank you all!


You are quite welcome. From all of us


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Pablo.Flox said:


> Put it on a Nato until I can figure out where to get the bracelet sized. My country is in Lock Down so not so easy!


Does Amazon deliver to Italy? That is an Italian flag, no? If so, search for a 1.2 by 40mm screwdriver. I like the Wiha


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Its an Irish flag! But Amazon do deliver here. I'll take a look for one, thanks. I wasn't sure what to search for.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Swiftsure showed up early this morning. I was able to resize it before a meeting I had. Got a lot of compliments during the meeting. It wears really well. The thin case/movement really helps the wear ability. A couple of quick shots from earlier.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Pablo.Flox said:


> Its an Irish flag! But Amazon do deliver here. I'll take a look for one, thanks. I wasn't sure what to search for.


Sorry! My phone doesn't distinguish between orange and red as well as I'd like.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Sorry! My phone doesn't distinguish between orange and red as well as I'd like.


Your phone or your eyes?

I kid, I kid.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Uncharacteristically near-stock

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Your phone or your eyes?
> 
> I kid, I kid.


Both. 
And now I'm wondering what that Polar would look like with a 12-hour bezel


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> If it helps, Serious is in the EU, and ships free, which should save you some pesos compared to ordering from my site. You'll have to pay VAT, but you'll get free shipping, and avoid that nasty customs brokerage fee FedEx likes to add on.


So I ended getting the Nacken Modern DLC, it's such a looker and it was really, really hard to take my eyes from it. I'm a sucker for DLC watches and I always liked the Nacken so this was a match made in heaven. This one has the potential to de-throne the Christpher Ward Vintage DLC as my favorite.

The Nazzario Vino Rosso looks terrific too and it was hard to not pull the trigger on both.

I finally got to see the Scorpene White DLC, I like it but the white dial isn't as pretty as the one on the Phantom DLC, Maybe I'll get it and ask a moder to make one as I like it... How possible is it to change the crystal for plexiglass?

Anyway, thanks Doc for keep doing wonderful watches, your treads are the only ones worth coming to this site, (at least for me).

Funny thing, I'm thinking that for what I've spent on your watches I could have got a nice Speedmaster, but to be honest your watches are a lot of fun.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> So I ended getting the Nacken Modern DLC, it's such a looker and it was really, really hard to take my eyes from it. I'm a sucker for DLC watches and I always liked the Nacken so this was a match made in heaven. This one has the potential to de-throne the Christpher Ward Vintage DLC as my favorite.
> 
> The Nazzario Vino Rosso looks terrific too and it was hard to not pull the trigger on both.
> 
> ...


There's a guy who is (or was) a regular in the BSHT threads who replaced the sapphire on his NTH Sub with a high-dome plexi crystal. I think it might have been @singularityseven , but if not, @hwa may know who it was, or he might know all about that particular mod.

Just for the record - I don't condone or condemn it. I'd prefer people leave the watches as we made them, rather than risk ruining them, but you bought 'em, so you do what you like with 'em.

The Scorpène White dial is C3, whereas the Phantom was "old radium", which seems to have garnered a lot of online hate in recent years. We've only used it very sparingly - on the markers of the original (not the recent v.2) Oberon, the original Amphion Vintage Black, and on the Santa Cruz.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Related to DLC...

Anyone interested in a no-date, DLC Näcken Modern Black, John at Watch Gauge just accepted a return of one that's been sized, but is otherwise in mint condition. He's willing to cut a deal on it.

Email him at [email protected].


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Both.
> And now I'm wondering what that Polar would look like with a 12-hour bezel


Was totally thinking of a Polar with Vanguard bezel...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pablo.Flox said:


> View attachment 15545420
> 
> 
> Put it on a Nato until I can figure out where to get the bracelet sized. My country is in Lock Down so not so easy!


She looks good, Paisan!


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Just for the record - I don't condone or condemn it. I'd prefer people leave the watches as we made them, rather than risk ruining them, but you bought 'em, so you do what you like with 'em.


Good point, I suppose it's fair that I'd lose the warranty too, and both of us know that I've used that before.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15545362


Perfect strap pairing!

I kind of wish I liked DLC watches.

And white dials.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Put the Swiftsure on a black Barton rubber.


----------



## singularityseven (May 1, 2020)

docvail said:


> There's a guy who is (or was) a regular in the BSHT threads who replaced the sapphire on his NTH Sub with a high-dome plexi crystal. I think it might have been @singularityseven , but if not, @hwa may know who it was, or he might know all about that particular mod.
> 
> Just for the record - I don't condone or condemn it. I'd prefer people leave the watches as we made them, rather than risk ruining them, but you bought 'em, so you do what you like with 'em.
> 
> The Scorpène White dial is C3, whereas the Phantom was "old radium", which seems to have garnered a lot of online hate in recent years. We've only used it very sparingly - on the markers of the original (not the recent v.2) Oberon, the original Amphion Vintage Black, and on the Santa Cruz.


I think you got me confused with someone else, Doc. I would never commit such a heinous act on a watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

singularityseven said:


> I think you got me confused with someone else, Doc. I would never commit such a heinous act on a watch.


Apparently I did. I'm 56.8% sure his user name had "seven" in it, though.

This was easier with the old forum software, which let you see who posted in a thread. I could see who posted in the BSHT, and find him. If not there, I'm 67.3% sure he posted in the previous NTH thread.

Anyways...I ain't got time for the search. It's past 5pm, I need a drink, and I'm hungry like the wolf.

So I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Perfect strap pairing!
> 
> I kind of wish I liked DLC watches.
> 
> And white dials.


Sh*t. I had that strap picked out before I was _sure_ i was getting the watch. C&B single pass with DLC hardware.


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

My first NTH. I would have never thought a color like this would speak to me, but it is mesmerizing. Thoroughly impressed with the fit & finish and overall build quality of your product. Can't wait to get my hands on that blue Scorpene when they drop. Thank goodness you decided to bring that bad boy back, I need one in my life.









Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Sir - has the Scorpene been discontinued?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> There's a guy who is (or was) a regular in the BSHT threads who replaced the sapphire on his NTH Sub with a high-dome plexi crystal. I think it might have been @singularityseven , but if not, @hwa may know who it was, or he might know all about that particular mod.
> 
> Just for the record - I don't condone or condemn it. I'd prefer people leave the watches as we made them, rather than risk ruining them, but you bought 'em, so you do what you like with 'em.
> 
> The Scorpène White dial is C3, whereas the Phantom was "old radium", which seems to have garnered a lot of online hate in recent years. We've only used it very sparingly - on the markers of the original (not the recent v.2) Oberon, the original Amphion Vintage Black, and on the Santa Cruz.


It was me, Oberon v.1 with high-dome plexi. Looked great, but changed it up.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

307 said:


> Sir - has the Scorpene been discontinued?


The blue one had been, or was out of production temporarily perhaps. Doc told me recently when I wished for it's return that it's returning in January or so, and I'll be getting one immediately.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

307 said:


> Sir - has the Scorpene been discontinued?


Watch gauge has the white if that's what you're after.








Scorpene White


Don't think of it as retro. The NTH Subs are our tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period. Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic, rugged style...




watchgauge.com


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

307 said:


> Sir - has the Scorpene been discontinued?


The Nomad version is still available at Serious Watches in the EU and IntoWatch in S.Korea.









NTH Scorpène Nomad No Date


The NTH Scorpène Nomad No Date is a high quality diving watch. The technical aspects are very impressive: double domed sapphire glass with an AR coating, 300m (30ATM) water resistance, a 120 click uni-directional bezel and of course a great Made in Japan automatic movement, the Miyota. cal. 9015...




www.seriouswatches.com













인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com





We also have one available in the Nearly New section of the NTH website.









Scorpène - Nomad - Nearly New


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com





The new full-lume white is available from those same two websites, as well as Watch Gauge, here in the USA.









Scorpene White


Don't think of it as retro. The NTH Subs are our tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period. Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic, rugged style...




watchgauge.com





The blue will be back in December-January.

The regular black version may be produced again next year or the year after.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> There's a guy who is (or was) a regular in the BSHT threads who replaced the sapphire on his NTH Sub with a high-dome plexi crystal. I think it might have been @singularityseven , but if not, @hwa may know who it was, or he might know all about that particular mod.





singularityseven said:


> I think you got me confused with someone else, Doc. I would never commit such a heinous act on a watch.





docvail said:


> Apparently I did. I'm 56.8% sure his user name had "seven" in it, though.


Alright, so...I'm not crazy. The guy I was thinking of is sevens.

He had a transparent caseback made for one of his NTH Subs, and I'm almost positive he also had a high-dome crystal swapped in, I think plexi.









The Brotherhood of Submariner Homages (a/k/a BSHT)...


Perhaps it's in the tone we infer while reading (your inference being different from mine). Perhaps I've become hypersensitive to the usual nonsense. And by "usual nonsense", I mean, in general: - People acting "let down" by the brand, for doing something which might be a commercial success...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

congrats all around for all of your awesome pick ups! There have been some amazing wrist shots over the past few pages.

Even though I already got two NTHs this year, in addition to some other watches and I _really_ don't need another one, y'all showing off your new toys and that talk about switching up the Nacken Modern Blue makes me wanna pull the trigger before it's too late.


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

I think most of us stopped "needing" another watch some time ago!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pablo.Flox said:


> I think most of us stopped "needing" another watch some time ago!


Shush!

Y'all need LOTS more watches!

;-)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> My first NTH. I would have never thought a color like this would speak to me, but it is mesmerizing. Thoroughly impressed with the fit & finish and overall build quality of your product. Can't wait to get my hands on that blue Scorpene when they drop. Thank goodness you decided to bring that bad boy back, I need one in my life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> .
> View attachment 15542412
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


Looks good with the blue insert, Chris. Definitely getting closer to that "Poor Man's PO that Omega never made," if that's a thing.


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## Mrkizzle04 (Oct 1, 2020)

UGHHHHHH my first NTH was supposed to be delivered yesterday but of course USPS did not deliver it. I'll have to patiently wait all day for my blue gilt barracuda


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Mrkizzle04 said:


> UGHHHHHH my first NTH was supposed to be delivered yesterday but of course USPS did not deliver it. I'll have to patiently wait all day for my blue gilt barracuda


Oh man. I was so close to getting one when they came out. We need pics when it arrives.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Shush!
> 
> Y'all need LOTS more watches!
> 
> ;-)


All the watches!

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Here are some shots of the Nazario and Swiftsure next to one another for anyone who is debating on the smaller or larger NTH. Apologies for the lint magnet I have the Swiftsure on.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> and I'm hungry like the wolf.
> 
> So I'm out.
> 
> PEACE!


For the children, might that be a subtle Duran Duran reference?


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Does anyone have a blue Thresher they can post pics of? Yes, I've seen the pics that NTH has on their site, but I'd like to see some forum member pics. Trying to decide between blue or black.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> For the children, might that be a subtle Duran Duran reference?


It is.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Does anyone have a blue Thresher they can post pics of? Yes, I've seen the pics that NTH has on their site, but I'd like to see some forum member pics. Trying to decide between blue or black.


It's a bit washed out, but this one's on IG -

__
http://instagr.am/p/CGswjN-lwtq/

Also slightly washed out, but, I posted this 2-3 weeks back, in case you missed it...


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Thanks, Chris. I didn't see those when they were posted. Looks good. I really like the Thresher design, and those hands!


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Back on the bracelet.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Curious what people's opinions are about the new end-links, featured on the 2K1's and the latest release of 40mm Subs.

What do you all think about having the links slightly recessed below the lugs' surface, and does the center-section seem better defined now? Are we likely to hear the end of that particular complaint?


----------



## Mrkizzle04 (Oct 1, 2020)

Ok ok ok...what in the world is going on. I have a pretty extensive watch collection, some cheapies...some heavy hitters...some I just can't part with because I've had them since I was a kid. I picked up this NTH barracuda blue gilt on a random whim...bourbon night...what can I say. Seriously though I'm in love. Instant connection, it matches my favorite colors and even more so my lifestyle and personality. Well done NTH... well done. Now on the hunt for vintage nacken!


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Curious what people's opinions are about the new end-links, featured on the 2K1's and the latest release of 40mm Subs.
> 
> What do you all think about having the links slightly recessed below the lugs' surface, and does the center-section seem better defined now? Are we likely to hear the end of that particular complaint?


I never had an issue with the previous bracelet end-link design. So my opinion is moot. Both are fine to me.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Are we likely to hear the end of that particular complaint?


Psssh. Most of us sit around late at night trying to come up with new complaints.


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

Mrkizzle04 said:


> Ok ok ok...what in the world is going on. I have a pretty extensive watch collection, some cheapies...some heavy hitters...some I just can't part with because I've had them since I was a kid. I picked up this NTH barracuda blue gilt on a random whim...bourbon night...what can I say. Seriously though I'm in love. Instant connection, it matches my favorite colors and even more so my lifestyle and personality. Well done NTH... well done. Now on the hunt for vintage nacken!
> View attachment 15547275


Nice looking watch.


----------



## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

It really is amazing! I have 10+ watches in the €500-€1000 price range and this is making me consider of I need to have that many!


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Pablo.Flox said:


> View attachment 15547459
> 
> 
> It really is amazing! I have 10+ watches in the €500-€1000 price range and this is making me consider of I need to have that many!


Those blue indices are f'ing killer!! Can't wait for mine to get here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

They really are. I found myself looking at them all day.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Glad you like the Barracuda. That one is pretty rare. We only made 10 of them with date, ever.



Mrkizzle04 said:


> Now on the hunt for vintage nacken!


Let me help you out. This is the last new one left on the planet:









NTH Nacken Vintage W/ Date – FiveFortyFive


military divers quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. rugged style NTH Nacken Vintage Black w/Date Anti-Reflective Sapphire 300M FACTORY WARRANTY 2 YEARS big-crown, no crown-guard case, with a slightly raised, double-domed, anti-reflective sapphire crystal sloped




fivefortyfive.nz





You probably won't see more of that one until 2022, if then. I could get hit by a bus before that. I mean...2020, amirite?

I don't know if or when we'll make more of the vintage blue version. I'm thinking of axing it from the lineup, and sticking with the Renegade, Vintage White, and Vintage Black, to round out the Näcken range. Your best bet for the vintage blue is eBay or WatchRecon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Psssh. Most of us sit around late at night trying to come up with new complaints.


If the complaints aren't completely new, would that make them homage complaints?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of the Polar Barracuda - supply of the no-dates is pretty low, just 7 of them left, worldwide, at least until next year.

Actually, that's also true for the no-date Barracuda Vintage Black, and the Näcken Modern Blue no-date - just 7 pieces of each left, worldwide.

We're now also down to the last new Skipjack left in the world -









Skipjack with Date


Don't think of it as retro. The NTH Subs are our tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period. Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic, rugged style...




watchgauge.com


----------



## Mrkizzle04 (Oct 1, 2020)

docvail said:


> Glad you like the Barracuda. That one is pretty rare. We only made 10 of them with date, ever.
> 
> Let me help you out. This is the last new one left on the planet:
> 
> ...


Hats off to you sir, you produced an excellent timepiece that I've spent the afternoon gushing about.

I know! I saw it yesterday and it has been in my cart a few times just haven't pulled the trigger since I'm days away from closing on my new house. Ughh hopefully it sticks around until Wednesday.

Once again slow clap to you and this amazing watch!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Glad you like the Barracuda. That one is pretty rare. We only made 10 of them with date, ever.
> 
> Let me help you out. This is the last new one left on the planet:
> 
> ...


I've bought the blue vintage three times. It's the best nth ever made. Prove me wrong

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I've bought the blue vintage three times. It's the best nth ever made. Prove me wrong
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You also sold it, at least twice.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> If it is the same color that appears on this chart, then it's the same brightness as "*natural*", which is the lume color we used on the *vintage Näckens*, and on the *Amphion Commando*, with good results, by all accounts.





docvail said:


> PS on the lume -
> 
> We also used that "*natural*" lume color on the dial / hands of the *Bahia* and the *Tikuna*, again, with good results, by all accounts.
> ...


Vintage Nackens - awesome.
Amphion Commando - probably awesome if I liked the bezel more.
Bahia - awesome.
Tikuna - awesome.

Natural is where it's at. Did Kiger have natural lume, as well?


----------



## Mrkizzle04 (Oct 1, 2020)

docvail said:


> You also sold it, at least twice.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


lol I was thinking the same thing ??


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> I've bought the blue vintage three times. It's the best nth ever made. Prove me wrong





docvail said:


> You also sold it, at least twice.





Mrkizzle04 said:


> lol I was thinking the same thing ??


Doesn't mean he's wrong, though. Vintage blue is absolutely killer.

Maybe multiple purchases were required because the guts kept finding their way into other cases.


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> Curious what people's opinions are about the new end-links, featured on the 2K1's and the latest release of 40mm Subs.
> 
> What do you all think about having the links slightly recessed below the lugs' surface, and does the center-section seem better defined now? Are we likely to hear the end of that particular complaint?


Barracuda Vintage black here. I noticed the end links slightly recessed right off. I like it. The Tudor BB58 I owned was like that.
I also went back and forth with photos of the previous Barracuda I had and prefer this new one's end links. Something about this new one I just like better and I'm not sure why. No ghost stop when setting is a nice change, also.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Vintage Nackens - awesome.
> Amphion Commando - probably awesome if I liked the bezel more.
> Bahia - awesome.
> Tikuna - awesome.
> ...


Nope. C3.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> You also sold it, at least twice.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Don't make me explain.

Ok, i will. Watch accumulation is like pizza buying. Sometimes you order the large pepperoni and have leftovers. Then, you get hungry again and buy another large pepperoni, but this time, they got that 2 for one special going.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

hwa said:


> Don't make me explain.
> 
> Ok, i will. Watch accumulation is like pizza buying. Sometimes you order the large pepperoni and have leftovers. Then, you get hungry again and buy another large pepperoni, but this time, they got that 2 for one special going.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Boy, this had got to be the best thread on this entire forum... never have I come across so many obtuse and often daffy/ wacky posts. Most entertaining. Keeps me coming back. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Boy, this had got to be the best thread on this entire forum... never have I come across so many obtuse and often daffy/ wacky posts. Most entertaining. Keeps me coming back.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Well, if I wrote: I basically bought the thing for $200, that would be boring

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15548091


That's hot! And I don't even like white dials.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Another 2K1 review.









NTH Thresher 2k1 Review - Wristwatch Review UK


The NTH Thresher 2k1 comes from a brand with a big reputation in the microbrand business. It's everything we expected... and more!




wristwatchreview.co.uk





Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

MikeyT said:


> That's hot! And I don't even like white dials.


They're definitely an acquired taste imho. One that I have acquired thanks to the good Doc. I've only got two, both NTHs, but I love a good white dial.


----------



## JAD123 (Apr 16, 2018)

Been looking for a new dive tool watch as my daily and was bummed out that the watches with what Im looking for were not quite large enough for what I like on 7.5 wrist, had a janky bracelet, or were 1k+, out of my budget. New 2k1s seem to check all my boxes and still be within my budget. I am torn between the black or the white swiftsure, though. To the point where I may have to just order both and return one once I see them in person. Unless theres anywhere near DC, MD, VA, or Philly to see them in person by any chance?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JAD123 said:


> Been looking for a new dive tool watch as my daily and was bummed out that the watches with what Im looking for were not quite large enough for what I like on 7.5 wrist, had a janky bracelet, or were 1k+, out of my budget. New 2k1s seem to check all my boxes and still be within my budget. I am torn between the black or the white swiftsure, though. To the point where I may have to just order both and return one once I see them in person. Unless theres anywhere near DC, MD, VA, or Philly to see them in person by any chance?


There isn't, unfortunately.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

JAD123 said:


> Been looking for a new dive tool watch as my daily and was bummed out that the watches with what Im looking for were not quite large enough for what I like on 7.5 wrist, had a janky bracelet, or were 1k+, out of my budget. New 2k1s seem to check all my boxes and still be within my budget. I am torn between the black or the white swiftsure, though. To the point where I may have to just order both and return one once I see them in person. Unless theres anywhere near DC, MD, VA, or Philly to see them in person by any chance?


If you can afford to do that, I would. However, dont get mad when you want to keep both. Its happened to many of us.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ordinarily, if we have the watches here in my office or in Dan's shop, I wouldn't mind meeting up to show someone who's in the Philly area.

In this case, we don't have any more of the 2K1's hanging around. They've all been shipped out to bloggers, retailers, and our warehouse.


----------



## Mrkizzle04 (Oct 1, 2020)

Still seriously digging the Barracuda! The finishing is just amazing!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The one that started all my trouble....


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

When you're bored, waiting for football.

I think I mighta done somethin...


----------



## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> When you're bored, waiting for football.
> 
> I think I mighta done somethin...


Hot!

I've been noodling a black bracelet on silver watch for a couple years and never dredged up the nerve. Love it.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

devilsbite said:


> Hot!
> 
> I've been noodling a black bracelet on silver watch for a couple years and never dredged up the nerve. Love it.


Aftermarket bracelet, I never woulda done it. But I pulled the DLC bracelet off of my Vino Rosso to put a burgundy single pass on it, so it was just sitting there staring at me and the Tik.

I figured why not? It's still an OEM NTH bracelet, everything will fit perfectly snug, let's give it a shot.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Monday
















Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That's a great pairing, Jimmy!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> That's a great pairing, Jimmy!


Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TBH, the v2 sub bracelet endlink never bothered me, other than male endlink v. female. I like the way it sits flush with the lugs, and in my world, it seems a bit more refined and finished than an endlink where the edge sits recessed compared to the lug. The v3 bracelet is a solution to something that was not a problem in my eyes. But were I in the market for another sub, recessed endlinks with more defined center portion would not be any kind of deal-breaker.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Guess you could call the Tik w/ black bracelet "Tool Tone", wicked pissah!


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Doc, I'm not here to brown-nose with this post, but let me tell you something. I've owned everything from Rolex, Omega to Seiko and Timex. I've held some very expensive pieces that I wouldn't want to own, and some I would. I have to say, this white Swiftsure looks so damn good. I've worn it every day since it came in and I can't stop looking at it. It literally is one of the best looking watches I've ever seen in person. I have a Polar Barracuda coming that I was able to find, and that is going to be one amazing combo next to the Swiftsure. Really looking forward to putting them side-by-side.

Oh, and I get a lot of compliments on this Polar Swiftsure.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

The day lume on the Polar Barracuda is insane. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Doc, I'm not here to brown-nose with this post, but let me tell you something. I've owned everything from Rolex, Omega to Seiko and Timex. I've held some very expensive pieces that I wouldn't want to own, and some I would. I have to say, this white Swiftsure looks so damn good. I've worn it every day since it came in and I can't stop looking at it. It literally is one of the best looking watches I've ever seen in person. I have a Polar Barracuda coming that I was able to find, and that is going to be one amazing combo next to the Swiftsure. Really looking forward to putting them side-by-side.
> 
> Oh, and I get a lot of compliments on this Polar Swiftsure.


Everyone point and laugh at the brown-noser!

In all seriousness, thank you for the kind words. I always like hearing when peeps enjoy the results of my team's work.

By all means, please feel free to tell others if you're happy with it. Word of mouth, even in the digital realm, is still the best advertising.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> By all means, please feel free to tell others if you're happy with it. Word of mouth, even in the digital realm, is still the best advertising.


Oh, I do. Showed my buddy the Swiftsure and he about fell over. He's in love with it and I think he'll be ordering from you.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

If anyone with a new Sub bracelet w/ the new endlinks would prefer the V2 bracelet, maybe I can help your flush end link dreams come true. Have a still wrapped in plastic V2 bracelet for possible swap. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm almost afraid to ask...

Did you get one of the new DLC's, or is that a custom-coated case?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'm almost afraid to ask...
> 
> Did you get one of the new DLC's, or is that a custom-coated case?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15552507


Shenanigans.















Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm almost afraid to ask...
> 
> Did you get one of the new DLC's, or is that a custom-coated case?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


That is a custom-coated case because the gold wouldn't adhere.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Out of sheer curiosity @docvail, why no Ceramic Bezels? Unless I've just overlooked it. I don't think it serves any practical purpose for me, I just dig the look. The high gloss ceramic bezels anyway. All I want for Christmas is a ceramic bezel blue Scorpene, with a date window! 
Whether you give me the ceramic bezel or not, I'm buying one, just for the record.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> Out of sheer curiosity @docvail, why no Ceramic Bezels?


Because ceramic sucks.





































I can find dozens, if not hundreds of images of broken ceramic inserts, and watch cases, with a simple search for "broken ceramic watch".

Find me ONE of a broken steel insert.

I'll wait.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Because ceramic sucks.
> 
> View attachment 15552591
> 
> ...


So it's about functional strength then? I didn't realize that the Ceramic broke so easily, I was under the impression it was relatively durable. Thanks for the insight though, that would explain why you don't offer it. As mentioned, I just dig the look. Thanks for also not being sheepish about why you don't use it. I legitimately laughed when I read your answer, definitely needed that. If only everyone said what they meant...

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

cghorr01 said:


> So it's about functional strength then? I didn't realize that the Ceramic broke so easily, I was under the impression it was relatively durable. Thanks for the insight though, that would explain why you don't offer it. As mentioned, I just dig the look. Thanks for also not being sheepish about why you don't use it. I legitimately laughed when I read your answer, definitely needed that. If only everyone said what they meant...
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Ask another question....say about....bracelet end lugs. (Waits for the WOT...)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> ... If only everyone said what they meant...
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


You can't spell "meant" without "mean".

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Ask another question....say about....bracelet end lugs. (Waits for the WOT...)


Oh, you want some of this???

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

queue the 1k$ service bill for replacing a 50$ part



cghorr01 said:


> As mentioned, I just dig the look.


hmm, i can't picture that to be honest. The ceramic would look too modern and in stark contrast to the rest of the watch imho. Maybe if it would be matte ceramic that could work (if there is even such a thing..)


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I got into this stupid hobby in an attempt to find a durable watch. Found one. Or three.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Oh, you want some of this???
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Sorry, doc. Met you both. Would be a wordy, bloody affair, but @rhory would take you. Big freakin sexagenarian. We don't call him #buffsanta for nothin'

And thanks. Now I need to spend the day trying to break a steel insert. It's an upgrade, ya know

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> Sorry, doc. Met you both. Would be a wordy, bloody affair, but @rhory would take you. Big freakin sexagenarian. We don't call him #buffsanta for nothin'
> 
> And thanks. Now I need to spend the day trying to break a steel insert. It's an upgrade, ya know
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it isn't attached to a bezel, should be fairly easy. Given, you'll have to bend it back and forth a whole bunch first.

Hardened steel is a different story. It can actually get pretty brittle depending on steel composition and its HRC.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

You can break anything with a big enough hammer. And there's also no such thing as "bullet-proof." Just bullet resistant. Any A-10 driver knows that.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Would not be fair to break it when detached from bezel

I think doc will win this one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

hwa said:


> Sorry, doc. Met you both. Would be a wordy, bloody affair, but @rhory would take you. Big freakin sexagenarian. We don't call him #buffsanta for nothin'
> 
> And thanks. Now I need to spend the day trying to break a steel insert. It's an upgrade, ya know
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I like being called names that have sex in them!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> You can break anything with a big enough hammer. And there's also no such thing as "bullet-proof." Just bullet resistant. Any A-10 driver knows that.


Gotta love it. A gun that had no use until they decided to wrap it in a plane.....


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Because ceramic sucks.
> 
> View attachment 15552591
> 
> ...


Ah, that's just patina, man.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> queue the 1k$ service bill for replacing a 50$ part
> 
> hmm, i can't picture that to be honest. The ceramic would look too modern and in stark contrast to the rest of the watch imho. Maybe if it would be matte ceramic that could work (if there is even such a thing..)


There is such a thing. Ceramic and steel inserts can both be given similar finishes - glossy, brushed, or matte / blasted.

I'm personally not a fan of the glossy finish, at all, on either material.

On ceramic, it looks and feels too "cold" to me. And while I appreciate ceramic's much higher resistance to scratches, I think polished ceramic inserts make dive watches look too "blingy".

In my gut, I still think of NTH watches (at least those with the external bezels) as being true tool watches, meant to be worn and banged up by life's mishaps, so "blingy" doesn't really go with the aesthetic we want.

With steel, I generally feel that a little bit of polishing goes a long way, and tends to look best on surfaces that are more contoured than our bezel inserts, i.e, like the chamfers we like to add to our cases. Too much polished steel on a watch tends to make it look cheap, IMO, even if the watch isn't.

I've seen the matte finish on ceramic. My immediate impression was that it reminded me of a recently-erased chalkboard, somewhat "dusty" looking, or like plastic. I wasn't really a fan.

With the steel inserts, the matte finish comes from bead-blasting, and although I think a blasted finish can have its appeal, I'm concerned about its long term durability and repair-ability, which is why we've never made anything with a blasted finish.

My opinion is that the brushed finish is the best choice. A brushed finish will hide scratches better, and can be re-brushed by hand, whereas a blasted finish really can't be.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Sorry, doc. Met you both. Would be a wordy, bloody affair, but @rhory would take you. Big freakin sexagenarian. We don't call him #buffsanta for nothin'
> 
> And thanks. Now I need to spend the day trying to break a steel insert. It's an upgrade, ya know
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bro, have you seen him lately though? He looks like the spokes-model for "Ageless Male" pills.

First he tells you how things were in his day, then he steals your girl...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> If it isn't attached to a bezel, should be fairly easy. Given, you'll have to bend it back and forth a whole bunch first.
> 
> Hardened steel is a different story. It can actually get pretty brittle depending on steel composition and its HRC.





dmjonez said:


> You can break anything with a big enough hammer. And there's also no such thing as "bullet-proof." Just bullet resistant. Any A-10 driver knows that.


*****, I do not like where this seems to be heading...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I like being called names that have sex in them!


Rhory be in the men's room like, "John L. Sullivan got nothing on me..."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a separate topic, can any of you guys identify this watch?










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Soo... it's "not his", but he did take the effort to clean it for his friend?

Mmmmhmmmm sure.


The watch really seems like some kind of a basic seiko solar.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Was gonna post pics of my new NTH watches but I think I'll wait a bit so as not to be on the same page as ^


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

If we all work together, we can put enough posts on here to get this thread moved to the next page...


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Tanker G1 said:


> Was gonna post pics of my new NTH watches but I think I'll wait a bit so as not to be on the same page as ^


what he said. let's get it started


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> With steel, I generally feel that a little bit of polishing goes a long way, and tends to look best on surfaces that are more contoured than our bezel inserts, i.e, like the chamfers we like to add to our cases. Too much polished steel on a watch tends to make it look cheap, IMO, even if the watch isn't.


And this is why I sold and will not buy another Sinn 104. That case is way too blingy.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Ordered another sub. Pics in a few days, but I am needfully adding a post to get this thread to the next page.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> *****, I do not like where this seems to be heading...


"Hey, I think I have a warranty issue? I was just wearing my watch and the bezel totally asploded!!!"


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Terrible picture, but hey, we're trying to get to the next page.


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Finally got ahold of my new Polar after some FedEx shenanegans.... This is probably my favorite NTH that I've owned. I've let go of most of my previous subs because it just felt like they weren't quite speaking to me, but I feel like with this design, NTH is really starting to get it's own distinctive design language. It looks like an NTH and nothing else, which is not really something that you can say about lots of previous subs. Also the lume is great. I am probably in the minority here, but the new endlinks also make a big difference to me, I like them significantly more than the old ones, which looked cheap to me. Good job Doc!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> what he said. let's get it started
> 
> View attachment 15553492


Dayum.

That is a good looking watch, if I do say so myself...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Finally got ahold of my new Polar after some FedEx shenanegans.... This is probably my favorite NTH that I've owned. I've let go of most of my previous subs because it just felt like they weren't quite speaking to me, but I feel like with this design, NTH is really starting to get it's own distinctive design language. It looks like an NTH and nothing else, which is not really something that you can say about lots of previous subs. Also the lume is great. I am probably in the minority here, but the new endlinks also make a big difference to me, I like them significantly more than the old ones, which looked cheap to me. Good job Doc!


Pics or it didn't happen.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

*
WHERE CAN I PURCHASE THIS ITEM?*



docvail said:


> On a separate topic, can any of you guys identify this watch?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Pics or it didn't happen.


I'm clearly not the best photographer here lol but this should serve as evidence...


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

mattm0691 said:


> Finally got ahold of my new Polar after some FedEx shenanegans...


What is up with FedEx?


Purchased a Barracuda Polar from WG. Added DLC Näcken for giggles, glad I did.
Got shipment notification.
Logged into FedEx.com and requested hold at local FedEx for pickup.
Got text and email confirmation of service change.
Heard the package hit my front door Monday when I was home for lunch.
2 min later, text message says I signed for the package. I did?


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

WeirdGuy said:


> *WHERE CAN I PURCHASE THIS ITEM?*


Look, I've got as many 'girlfriends in a box' as the next guy but don't let her borrow your automatic watches. Unless you're spending some meaningful time together, it won't stay running.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Tanker G1 said:


> What is up with FedEx?
> 
> 
> Purchased a Barracuda Polar from WG. Added DLC Näcken for giggles, glad I did.
> ...


Not sure what the deal is, but this has been the case for the last three FedEx packages I've received. I requested them to be held at a local holding spot, and they showed up at my house and I never had to sign. Pissed me off.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> Look, I've got as many 'girlfriends in a box' as the next guy...


Legit LOL.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

WeirdGuy said:


> Not sure what the deal is, but this has been the case for the last three FedEx packages I've received. I requested them to be held at a local holding spot, and they showed up at my house and I never had to sign. Pissed me off.


I've heard from a couple of our Fedex and UPS drivers over the last few months that internal procedures within the company do not allow them to collect a physical signature during the pandemic so they are simply signing for people and moving on. they are apparently supposed to physically see the recipient and ask for the name to put down but apparently some of them are taking advantage of loosened rules to get their route done faster.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

nonfatproduct said:


> I've heard from a couple of our Fedex and UPS drivers over the last few months that internal procedures within the company do not allow them to collect a physical signature during the pandemic so they are simply signing for people and moving on. they are apparently supposed to physically see the recipient and ask for the name to put down but apparently some of them are taking advantage of loosened rules to get their route done faster.


I heard the same regarding a signature, but here's the issue that makes me upset. If you have a FedEx account (like I do), you can go into the app or online and request that your package be dropped off at a FedEx holding station (usually a Walgreens or other type of store close to your home, office, etc...) and you can then pick up your package on your own time. This really helps when you don't want a valuable package sitting on your porch or you cannot sign for something. I've had some $$$ packages show up lately, and even though I live in a safe neighborhood, I still do not trust people. This is why I request my packages be held at a location when I am not home. The pandemic should have nothing to do with this feature/offering from FedEx, as I've had many packages during this time be dropped off at the holding place of my choice. It just recently started not allowing this feature to be accepted, however, I asked the Walgreens near me if they are still holding packages, and they stated that they are. So something isn't right.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I've heard from a couple of our Fedex and UPS drivers over the last few months that internal procedures within the company do not allow them to collect a physical signature during the pandemic so they are simply signing for people and moving on. they are apparently supposed to physically see the recipient and ask for the name to put down but apparently some of them are taking advantage of loosened rules to get their route done faster.


My uncle just retired from being a FedEx driver. My understanding from him was that the company had been increasingly micro-managing the drivers the last few years, getting into the minutiae of how long everything takes to do, from taking someone's signature to taking a p*ss.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if drivers were to see loosened / altered procedures as an opportunity to do anything which would make their job somewhat more enjoyable.

It's a shame, what modern companies do to their employees, in the name of increased profitability. He used to love that job, and got to know the people on his route, even become semi-close to them. He was broken up when he found that one half of an elderly couple on his route had passed away, and the other had become something of a shut-in.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> I heard the same regarding a signature, but here's the issue that makes me upset. If you have a FedEx account (like I do), you can go into the app or online and request that your package be dropped off at a FedEx holding station (usually a Walgreens or other type of store close to your home, office, etc...) and you can then pick up your package on your own time. This really helps when you don't want a valuable package sitting on your porch or you cannot sign for something. I've had some $$$ packages show up lately, and even though I live in a safe neighborhood, I still do not trust people. This is why I request my packages be held at a location when I am not home. The pandemic should have nothing to do with this feature/offering from FedEx, as I've had many packages during this time be dropped off at the holding place of my choice. It just recently started not allowing this feature to be accepted, however, I asked the Walgreens near me if they are still holding packages, and they stated that they are. So something isn't right.


Indeed. My wife monitors the local "patch" - a website chronicling various happenings in our town, including anything involving the police. Even in our somewhat posh suburb, we've had a rash of package thefts.

I typically have anything valuable and small delivered to my PO box instead of the house. I forget what I pay to rent the smallest-size box for the year, but it's ridiculously cheap.

Alternatively, I think it makes sense to get one of these secure package delivery boxes, though I'd also bet most wives would hate having one sitting by the front door.



https://www.amazon.com/Keter-Package-Delivery-Lockable-Compartment/dp/B07RJ6QHCH


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Indeed. My wife monitors the local "patch" - a website chronicling various happenings in our town, including anything involving the police. Even in our somewhat posh suburb, we've had a rash of package thefts.
> 
> I typically have anything valuable and small delivered to my PO box instead of the house. I forget what I pay to rent the smallest-size box for the year, but it's ridiculously cheap.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that link. Never really thought about one of these. I've had PO Boxes in the past, but man, those postal workers... Ugh. They cant seem to do anything correctly these days. I'll look into the package box that you linked me to.


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Thanks for that link. Never really thought about one of these. I've had PO Boxes in the past, but man, those postal workers... Ugh. They cant seem to do anything correctly these days. I'll look into the package box that you linked me to.


The USPS ends up being the butt of many jokes, but I think that's unfortunate, and often unfair. Considering the volume of mail they process, and how little it costs us, I think we tend to take it for granted.

Going into my local PO regularly, I've gotten to know the people who work there. There's always that one person who doesn't seem to bring anything to the table, but otherwise, they're all helpful, courteous, etc.

Before we moved into our current home, we always got to know our mail carriers. Our last guy always carried dog treats with him, and would stop and shoot the breeze a bit if we happened to be outside when he came by. We missed him when he changed routes.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Here, (a very rural area) both UPS and Fed Ex tell us they can't deliver to postal boxes. Or are you speaking of something else?


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> The USPS ends up being the butt of many jokes, but I think that's unfortunate, and often unfair. Considering the volume of mail they process, and how little it costs us, I think we tend to take it for granted.
> 
> Going into my local PO regularly, I've gotten to know the people who work there. There's always that one person who doesn't seem to bring anything to the table, but otherwise, they're all helpful, courteous, etc.
> 
> Before we moved into our current home, we always got to know our mail carriers. Our last guy always carried dog treats with him, and would stop and shoot the breeze a bit if we happened to be outside when he came by. We missed him when he changed routes.


I wish the same could be said for my local PO. I've literally seen them throw packages (unloading a truck) from one end of the warehouse, to the other. Every package landed on the ground missing its intended area. Each box was either crushed or I'd hear something break. I mentioned it to the Post Master and she couldn't have given two sh*ts.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Here, (a very rural area) both UPS and Fed Ex tell us they can't deliver to postal boxes. Or are you speaking of something else?


I think it's more a matter of them sometimes requiring a signature for delivery. If you want UPS or FedEx to deliver to your PO box, you have to fill out a form at the PO, giving them authority to sign for packages, on your behalf.

I've gotten pushback once or twice from a driver for UPS or FedEx, but otherwise, it's never been an issue for me, and I've done it with two different PO's.

I also used to get my FedEx shipments (of inventory) sent to my local FedEx office storefront, which may or may not be an option for you. Now that our inventory is being sent to Dan, we have it delivered to his local Walgreen's pharmacy, which is a FedEx pick-up / drop-off point. In either scenario, we just make sure that the sender uses our name and number, but the delivery point's address.

So, the label might look like this:

Chris Vail
c/o FedEx Kinko's
221 W. Main Street
Anytown, USA, 12345
(610)-555-1212

When we know we've got a shipment inbound, we sign up to get tracking updates by text or email. Plus, they'll call us with an automated "come get your $hlt" message. We know as soon as the package gets delivered. But even when I was less on-the-ball, the FedEx store would call me to let me know they had the package waiting on me to come pick it up.

I don't know if UPS will do the same thing with their storefront operations, but I imagine they would.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> I wish the same could be said for my local PO. I've literally seen them throw packages (unloading a truck) from one end of the warehouse, to the other. Every package landed on the ground missing its intended area. Each box was either crushed or I'd hear something break. I mentioned it to the Post Master and she couldn't have given two sh*ts.


Yeeesh. That's unfortunate.

Back in college, I worked for both UPS and now-defunct RPS. I loaded tractor-trailers at the UPS hub, which was one of the worst jobs I've ever had. They wanted us to pack the trailers tight, fitting the packages together, filling every nook and cranny, like a huge game of 3D Tetris, being mindful not to stack the packages one directly on top of the other, where the accumulated weight would crush the ones at the bottom. It was insanely hard to do under pressure.

At RPS, I unloaded trailers, which was a lot better.

Unfortunately, I witnessed some pretty unbelievable things in both places. During the loading at UPS, the packages come into the trucks via a conveyor system. If the guys loading the trucks aren't keeping up, packages can get crushed, or topple off the conveyors, sometimes never to be seen again. At RPS, I saw packages that were ripped open, and the contents stolen.

Stupid Nike would emblazon their boxes with the big "Swoosh" logo, like a big old sign reading "Who wants the latest Air Jordans?" We'd see the boxes ripped open, and just shake our heads.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Yeeesh. That's unfortunate.
> 
> Back in college, I worked for both UPS and now-defunct RPS. I loaded tractor-trailers at the UPS hub, which was one of the worst jobs I've ever had. They wanted us to pack the trailers tight, fitting the packages together, filling every nook and cranny, like a huge game of 3D Tetris, being mindful not to stack the packages one directly on top of the other, where the accumulated weight would crush the ones at the bottom. It was insanely hard to do under pressure.
> 
> ...


Lord. That last part pisses me off. People suck.


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

On a watch related note, I have been on the fence for the silver (whilver) Devilray for a while now. I have the black v1, and I got the black at the time because I thought that's the safest colorway. Well, it is safe, but I have come to appreciate that a cool design like the Devilray should carry a bit of a different flair. So, I am no longer on the fence with the silver, and I think it might just replace the black.

Apologies in advance for the crappy phone photos under artificial light.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

gokce said:


> On a watch related note, I have been on the fence for the silver (whilver) Devilray for a while now. I have the black v1, and I got the black at the time because I thought that's the safest colorway. Well, it is safe, but I have come to appreciate that a cool design like the Devilray should carry a bit of a different flair. So, I am no longer on the fence with the silver, and I think it might just replace the black.
> 
> Apologies in advance for the crappy phone photos under artificial light.
> 
> ...


I called that the aluminum foil when they first came out lol.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

A week and a half from leaving my hands, the Barracuda is back on my wrist. huge thanks to Chris, Julie, and anyone else involved at NTH. For a micro brand I am amazed at the speed and response I received.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> A week and a half from leaving my hands, the Barracuda is back on my wrist. huge thanks to Chris, Julie, and anyone else involved at NTH. For a micro brand I am amazed at the speed and response I received.
> 
> View attachment 15555771


Ahhhh...you're just a fanboy. Caught up in the cult of personality here in the "clubhouse". Hypnotized by the walls of text.

Everyone knows big brands have better support, and better quality, and are better value.



Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## whoagorgeous (Dec 9, 2012)

Can I join the party









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> A week and a half from leaving my hands, the Barracuda is back on my wrist. huge thanks to Chris, Julie, and anyone else involved at NTH. For a micro brand I am amazed at the speed and response I received.
> 
> View attachment 15555771





docvail said:


> Ahhhh...you're just a fanboy. Caught up in the cult of personality here in the "clubhouse". Hypnotized by the walls of text.
> 
> Everyone knows big brands have better support, and better quality, and are better value.
> 
> ...


I was just jerking your chain, by the way. Glad the Barracuda is back home with you, safe and sound.

I appreciate the feedback on my team. Having Julie there to help me field support requests and respond to social media messages/comments has been a huge help. We're able to offer high-touch support, but without me falling behind on other priorities which compete for my time and attention.

Dan's great, too. He can literally fix anything, often amazingly fast. He's been able to fix things that other watchmakers had given up on, and diagnosed issues that had everyone else baffled. It's not uncommon for him to receive a watch for repair late in the afternoon, have it fixed that evening, and back in the mail to its owner the next day.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just happened.









NTH 2K1 Subs


NTH Watches have churned out so many different variants of the mid-size Subs series dive watches that I sometimes forget they make anything else. This is no knock on the…




www.thetimebum.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Did I post this here already? I feel like I forgot to.









NTH Thresher 2k1 Review - Wristwatch Review UK


The NTH Thresher 2k1 comes from a brand with a big reputation in the microbrand business. It's everything we expected... and more!




wristwatchreview.co.uk


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> I was just jerking your chain, by the way. Glad the Barracuda is back home with you, safe and sound.
> 
> I appreciate the feedback on my team. Having Julie there to help me field support requests and respond to social media messages/comments has been a huge help. We're able to offer high-touch support, but without me falling behind on other priorities which compete for my time and attention.
> 
> Dan's great, too. He can literally fix anything, often amazingly fast. He's been able to fix things that other watchmakers had given up on, and diagnosed issues that had everyone else baffled. It's not uncommon for him to receive a watch for repair late in the afternoon, have it fixed that evening, and back in the mail to its owner the next day.


I always wanted to be part of a cult !!!

Dan is the name I was forgetting. After reading so many horror stories about people waiting weeks or even months to get their watches back from a small brand I was honestly expecting, and coming to terms, with the idea of waiting a couple weeks so I was reasonably surprised and excited to get a shipping notification and email from Julie so quickly. If the classic, vintage inspired designs hadn't made me a fanboy, the service certainly did.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

whoagorgeous said:


> Can I join the party
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Vail's finest work right there.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I always wanted to be part of a cult !!!
> 
> Dan is the name I was forgetting. After reading so many horror stories about people waiting weeks or even months to get their watches back from a small brand I was honestly expecting, and coming to terms, with the idea of waiting a couple weeks so I was reasonably surprised and excited to get a shipping notification and email from Julie so quickly. If the classic, vintage inspired designs hadn't made me a fanboy, the service certainly did.


The topic of how post-sale support of big brands compares to small brands is something that frequently sticks in my craw. Within many discussions on this forum, you'll find people claiming that big brands, with their big staffs, offer better support than small brands.

And yet, you'll also frequently find people telling horror stories of terrible support from big brands - resistance to providing warranty support up front, terrible turnaround time on communications, "black hole" service departments, agonizingly-long wait times for repairs, and frequently receiving back a watch which isn't fixed, but is often in worse condition.

Do all small brands provide great support? No, not from what I gather. Some are the worst. But many do provide great support, often provided by the brand owner, who has a real interest in protecting the reputation of his business.

On average, I'd put the typical small brand's support up against the typical large brand's support any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Not to constantly bring everything back to the prices we charge, but when people balk at our prices, I wonder if they truly appreciate the support we routinely deliver, and what sort of value they'd put on it, as well as their own time, if they knew in advance what sort of experience they could expect from the brands not charging enough to deliver like we do.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

I think there are ways both big brands and micro brands can each excel. First attention to detail should be the small brands strength, quick attentive service and easy to follow instructions via email or chat. Big brands will likely take longer but they should be able to handle a plethora of repairs and replacements with greater ease(not necessarily speed). The bigger brands have more parts and greater financial tools at their diposal. Thus small brand should excel in customer interaction and be able to fix or warranty what they claim with relative speed, however once out of warranty or say years down the road the larger comany should have more resources to help with an out of date model or back catalog item. I for one prefer working with small brands but I do see the argument that larger brands have some advantages with stock replacement parts etc...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Was randomly scrolling through the zaltek review of the 2k1's, until saw this pic:









and random thought - Doc, that shoul be _the_ photo on your brand's "about me" (or equivalent) section. It's just the right mix of irreverence, style, and openness. Better than a regular "normal photo" and much much better than nothing.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Thinner and more grey, that's the ticket.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Was randomly scrolling through the zaltek review of the 2k1's, until saw this pic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's been that way since we launched the new website in 2018.

Our "Team" pics used to be on the home page, but we moved some content around earlier this year. Now it's here - Meet NTH Watches


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

It looks more like some random fist is about to smack Doc in the kisser, likely in mid-WOT. At least that dude is sporting a nice watch.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

My Barracuda Polar no-date on Oyster bracelet is on its way to me. Going to look good next to the Swiftsure Polar.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> Ordered another sub. Pics in a few days, but I am needfully adding a post to get this thread to the next page.


Landed. ⚓


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Twehttam said:


> Landed. ️


Looks good I want to love natos more than I do. Atm I still prefer Erika's original, I will say nth subs work very well on nato style straps. Nice capture.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

NATOs, RAF, MN, et al are really my best options with my wrist size (and my preference).

Really happy with this one, Doc. You and Mark did an excellent job nailing this.

Ps, Mark Kiger has a couple of these left. As I rarely see Kigers in general - and I don’t believe I’ve seen a Kiger-NTH - for re-sale, I didn’t want to miss this. Happy to help connect anyone to Mark.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Was randomly scrolling through the zaltek review of the 2k1's, until saw this pic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Clearly an altered and photoshopped photo....I mean, we all know Doc's middle finger would have been raised and extended in the original! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> Vail's finest work right there.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Shame he don't offer it in a 42mm.... I'd be all over it like ants on a doughnut! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

More pics of Tikunas please. I need to be pushed over the edge. Enable me you plebians!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> More pics of Tikunas please. I need to be pushed over the edge. Enable me you plebians!


Here ya go.























Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

WeirdGuy said:


> More pics of Tikunas please. I need to be pushed over the edge. Enable me you plebians!


You asked for it man... just remember, you brought this on yourself.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Oh man. Those are some great pics, fellas. That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Thanks!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Landed. ️


Well played, sir. I was really curious to see what this was going to be after the teaser. Not disappointed.

I had been painfully perched on the fence on that one for much of 2020. It was fairly recently that I finally stopped obsessing and closed the browser tabs I kept open with photos of it. Interest wouldn't stay suppressed, though. As sort of a compromise and leaving it up to fate, I told myself I'd buy an Amphion Commando if a no-date ever came up for sale. And swap to a black bezel.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to prepare to re-enter obsession mode.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3WR said:


> Well played, sir. I was really curious to see what this was going to be after the teaser. Not disappointed.
> 
> I had been painfully perched on the fence on that one for much of 2020. It was fairly recently that I finally stopped obsessing and closed the browser tabs I kept open with photos of it. Interest wouldn't stay suppressed, though. As sort of a compromise and leaving it up to fate, I told myself I'd buy an Amphion Commando if a no-date ever came up for sale. And swap to a black bezel.
> 
> ...


I recommend you do. It's a beautiful watch.

The maxi dial with printed indices is just right for a Milsub and the Red Ronin at six is more muted than I imagined, which is perfect. I originally thought a fully indexed bezel would be better (more traditional), but I like the 15-min bezel and think it makes the watch a bit more balanced drawing more attention to the dial.

This felt like the right watch for the crazy that is 2020. We're not promised tomorrow. Truly live every day.

Mark is also a great guy. Combine that with Doc and team and you've got a special one.

Mark is also dealing with Rolex wanting the Milsub mark - who knows if there will be another Kiger "Milsub" - and it was nice to support him.

HAGWE!
⚓


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Swifty


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Back working from home due to na self quarantine precaution. My office had a positive case so I'm back at home.

So I said screw it and wore my early Xmas present to myself.
















Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

All the Tikuna talk yesterday, I decided to break out the silver on black today.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> All the Tikuna talk yesterday, I decided to break out the silver on black today.
> View attachment 15558397


What is the watch sitting on?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> What is the watch sitting on?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Its sitting on what's called an Indelac valve(the blue portion) and its pneumatic tubing. Basically an electronically controlled open/close for pressurized gasses.

It's a part of our Remote Activated Stench Gas Unit(RASGU). It's an underground emergency warning/notification system. When/if there is a collapse, fire, any emergency really, it is activated to release a gas that smells like rotten eggs x1000(It's legitimately f*cking horrible, as well as unmistakable). There is a chemical in the compound that literally binds the smell to surfaces like rock and metal. You smell it, get to a refuge chamber or evacuate if possible. Then when the emergency is deemed clear, the Wintergreen gas is released to neutralize the chemical bonding agent in the original stench gas. Flush the area with fresh air, and it's like it never happened.

Edit: photo


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

My wife has accused me of being a remotely activated stench gas unit...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> My wife has accused me of being a remotely activated stench gas unit...


Not even remotely...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> My wife has accused me of being a remotely activated stench gas unit...


Aren't we all?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Its sitting on what's called an Indelac valve(the blue portion) and its pneumatic tubing. Basically an electronically controlled open/close for pressurized gasses.
> 
> It's a part of our Remote Activated Stench Gas Unit(RASGU). It's an underground emergency warning/notification system. When/if there is a collapse, fire, any emergency really, it is activated to release a gas that smells like rotten eggs x1000(It's legitimately f*cking horrible, as well as unmistakable). There is a chemical in the compound that literally binds the smell to surfaces like rock and metal. You smell it, get to a refuge chamber or evacuate if possible. Then when the emergency is deemed clear, the Wintergreen gas is released to neutralize the chemical bonding agent in the original stench gas. Flush the area with fresh air, and it's like it never happened.
> 
> ...


Wow interesting not what I expected to hear. Thanks for sharing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> Wow interesting not what I expected to hear. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I build pretty specialized sh*t.

Now I'm curious as to what you _were_ expecting...


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I build pretty specialized sh*t.
> 
> Now I'm curious as to what you _were_ expecting...


Well not sure what I was expecting just not that

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Doc, you may have already mentioned it but does the gen1 DRs bracelets fit the current gen DRs?

Edit: answer is yes from my research. Anyone have one fs?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Its sitting on what's called an Indelac valve(the blue portion) and its pneumatic tubing. Basically an electronically controlled open/close for pressurized gasses.
> 
> It's a part of our Remote Activated Stench Gas Unit(RASGU). It's an underground emergency warning/notification system. When/if there is a collapse, fire, any emergency really, it is activated to release a gas that smells like rotten eggs x1000(It's legitimately f*cking horrible, as well as unmistakable). There is a chemical in the compound that literally binds the smell to surfaces like rock and metal. You smell it, get to a refuge chamber or evacuate if possible. Then when the emergency is deemed clear, the Wintergreen gas is released to neutralize the chemical bonding agent in the original stench gas. Flush the area with fresh air, and it's like it never happened.
> 
> ...


Wow.

Wait, so employees are literally gassed as a warning system? That's... Hm... I sure hope there are no other effects of this warning gas on humans...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> I build pretty specialized sh*t.
> 
> Now I'm curious as to what you _were_ expecting...


Tbh on first glance, I was gonna guess some part of an engine in the bowels of a freight ship.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

WeirdGuy said:


> More pics of Tikunas please. I need to be pushed over the edge. Enable me you plebians!


*Thy will be.....*

*Enabled............



































*

Have a great weekend y'all........

Cheerz,

Alan


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> Wow.
> 
> Wait, so employees are literally gassed as a warning system? That's... Hm... I sure hope there are no other effects of this warning gas on humans...


Other than potential vomiting from those with extremely sensitive stomachs and noses, no other effects.

Underground, radio contact is limited at best, even when the site utilizes what's called a "leaky feeder" system(google it). And even then, not everyone has a radio. Everyone does have a nose though, and like I said, this smell is absolutely unmistakable for anything else. It makes you _want_ to GTFO.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

No more canaries in the coal mines.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> Wow.
> 
> Wait, so employees are literally gassed as a warning system? That's... Hm... I sure hope there are no other effects of this warning gas on humans...


IIRC, rotten egg smell is hydrogen sulfide (HS) My HS Chem teacher told us that HS is toxic. Of course that WAS 60 years ago.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

MikeyT said:


> IIRC, rotten egg smell is hydrogen sulfide (HS) My HS Chem teacher told us that HS is toxic. Of course that WAS 60 years ago.


The cylinders we use have 100g of Ethyl Mercaptan(which _can_ be toxic). One of our two bottle units can "odorize" about 1.2 million cubic meters. The compound we use is itself non-flammable, though EM itself is. Don't ask me the science behind all that, lol.

Edit: this _is_ a watch forum. So heres a watch!


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

NTH Experts ..... I'm on the hunt for a Blue Scorpene .... can't find one used and the watch is not longer on the NTH website that I can see. Has it been discontinued? Thanks!


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

307 said:


> NTH Experts ..... I'm on the hunt for a Blue Scorpene .... can't find one used and the watch is not longer on the NTH website that I can see. Has it been discontinued? Thanks!











Coming Soon







nthwatches.com





Next month.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## technovox (Sep 23, 2020)

Twehttam said:


> I recommend you do. It's a beautiful watch.
> 
> The maxi dial with printed indices is just right for a Milsub and the Red Ronin at six is more muted than I imagined, which is perfect. I originally thought a fully indexed bezel would be better (more traditional), but I like the 15-min bezel and think it makes the watch a bit more balanced drawing more attention to the dial.
> 
> ...


The 15 min. bezel was one of the features that sold me on the Red Ronin...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Back on its bracelet.








Edit: extra photo. I cant get over how much I love the polish that wraps up to the crown guards..









I know a 22mm BOR doesnt seem to be in the cards, but man, I'd buy one in an instant.


----------



## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Back on its bracelet.
> View attachment 15561128
> 
> Edit: extra photo. I cant get over how much I love the polish that wraps up to the crown guards..
> ...


Man, the shape of that bezel from the side, combined with the 3,6,9 dial, brings me soooo close to picking one up, until I remember that its 44mm. Please, Doc, seriously, make these in 40mm..............

edited: to remind you about that OD green bezel option wink wink.


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## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

nonfatproduct said:


> Man, the shape of that bezel from the side, combined with the 3,6,9 dial, brings me soooo close to picking one up, until I remember that its 44mm. Please, Doc, seriously, make these in 40mm..............


Agreed, love the look of these new cases, but there's no way I can rock a watch that big lol


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Bloom said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Such a nice piece. Mine is on its way from WatchGauge and will be here tomorrow, so says FedEx. I don't trust them right now though. So we'll see.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

WeirdGuy said:


> Such a nice piece. Mine is on its way from WatchGauge and will be here tomorrow, so says FedEx. I don't trust them right now though. So we'll see.


Hang in there; it's definitely worth the wait. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Bloom said:


> Hang in there; it's definitely worth the wait.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, I know.  Its going to look so good next to this.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Barracuda Polar is out for delivery!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Here is a preview lol









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Oh man! Cant wait.  

I hope you guys/gals dont mind pics when it arrives!


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Just because it's finally a sunny day up here...


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Well, the Barracuda Polar is here. First pic is what I've been wearing since yesterday afternoon; a Raketa 'Big ZERO'. Rest of the pics are of the Barracuda Polar and Swiftsure Polar compared side-by-side. I'll have to get some Barracuda Polar wrist shots later and give my thoughts on the two.


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Both lovely watches, but for me the Polar Barracuda is the nicest of the NTH line up. A classy design that would hold its own against many luxury watches.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

I agree that it looks great, but without seeing the Swiftsure in person, you're doing yourself a disservice. Lol. Trust me, the SS looks fantastic too.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Will be ordering a black dialed Thresher either end of the week or next. Also on the waiting list for a blue Scorpene at WatchGauge.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Changed the bracelet to an elastic strap that matches really well, IMO.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

_sigh_

If only I could get a Polar Baracuda with a sword hour hand ...

Oh well. My wallet & my wife are happier this way.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Gonna rain today. Geared up lol
















Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

WeirdGuy said:


> I agree that it looks great, but without seeing the Swiftsure in person, you're doing yourself a disservice. Lol. Trust me, the SS looks fantastic too.


Aye it does.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Gonna rain today. Geared up lol
> View attachment 15564511
> View attachment 15564512
> 
> ...


Do I spot an HP-12C calculator there?

Somebody planning on calculating a discount rate on future cash flows?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Do I spot an HP-12C calculator there?
> 
> Somebody planning on calculating a discount rate on future cash flows?


Yep this one is about 20 years old. Lol. Working from home I needed to remember to grab it from my office.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just 'cause C300.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Yep this one is about 20 years old. Lol. Working from home I needed to remember to grab it from my office.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Mine's 20 years old, too. And still the original batteries! These things are indestructible. Best money I ever spent a gadget.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Arrived a day early.

Naoki is trying, but as much as I like this'un, it still ain't got nothin on my NTHs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just want to wish everyone celebrating it a happy Thanksgiving. And if you're traveling, travel safely.

Been a weird year, so far, to say the least. If you're spending time with family, try to enjoy it as much as you can.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Arrived a day early.
> 
> Naoki is trying, but as much as I like this'un, it still ain't got nothin on my NTHs.
> 
> View attachment 15565396


It's half the price though right?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> It's half the price though right?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


All about Docs pricing for you ain't it?

At _pre-order_ it was $350 w/ free shipping. I'm not sure what they go for at full price. But I'll assume its a step up. I got my GG Vanguard for $750, that went to $950 after the pre-order window closed.

Even though the Venturo has good build quality, its easy to see when side by side that my NTHs have a better overall build than what Naoki offers. The case has no polish anywhere to define the case shape or catch the eye, the bracelet and clasp aren't as nice(by a good margin imho, don't get me wrong, its good, SELs, and quick release for the bracelet), its WR is only 200m and its thicker than the NTH subs. Also, theres a _slight_ bezel misalignment, though nothing to scoff at for the pricepoint(especially since if i _were_ to complain and want it fixed under warranty, if they would, it'd have to go all the eay back to Singapore, instead of to somewhere stateside). I love my Vanguard, so I knew I was gonna get this when I saw it announced. And I knew it was gonna be a heads up fight against my NTH subs, which I really quite looked forward to. NTH won that fight easily, no doubt in my mind.

But I do _really_ like it. Its comfortable, its got killer lume(just like my GG), and it's at +1s after 24hrs on wrist(we'll chalk that up to luck). One thing I actually quite like about it is even though its a 40mm, its got 22mm lugs. I like wider bracelets and straps, my personal preference. Plus, sandwich dials are the tits.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> All about Docs pricing for you ain't it?
> 
> At _pre-order_ it was $350 w/ free shipping. I'm not sure what they go for at full price. But I'll assume its a step up. I got my GG Vanguard for $750, that went to $950 after the pre-order window closed.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the time You spent to respond and I agree with most of what you said and understand and respect the opinions.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> All about Docs pricing for you ain't it?


Is that a rhetorical question?

Because if not, the answer is "yes", it is all about my pricing, with him.



TheBearded said:


> At _pre-order_ it was $350 w/ free shipping. I'm not sure what they go for at full price. But I'll assume its a step up. I got my GG Vanguard for $750, that went to $950 after the pre-order window closed.
> 
> Even though the Venturo has good build quality, its easy to see when side by side that my NTHs have a better overall build than what Naoki offers. The case has no polish anywhere to define the case shape or catch the eye, the bracelet and clasp aren't as nice(by a good margin imho, don't get me wrong, its good, SELs, and quick release for the bracelet), its WR is only 200m and its thicker than the NTH subs. Also, theres a _slight_ bezel misalignment, though nothing to scoff at for the pricepoint(especially since if i _were_ to complain and want it fixed under warranty, if they would, it'd have to go all the eay back to Singapore, instead of to somewhere stateside). I love my Vanguard, so I knew I was gonna get this when I saw it announced. And I knew it was gonna be a heads up fight against my NTH subs, which I really quite looked forward to. NTH won that fight easily, no doubt in my mind.
> 
> But I do _really_ like it. Its comfortable, its got killer lume(just like my GG), and it's at +1s after 24hrs on wrist(we'll chalk that up to luck). One thing I actually quite like about it is even though its a 40mm, its got 22mm lugs. I like wider bracelets and straps, my personal preference. Plus, sandwich dials are the tits.


Apparently they're now $499, which still seems like quite a bargain, at least on paper. I wish Naoki the best of luck with them.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Is that a rhetorical question?


Uh, duh.



docvail said:


> Apparently they're now $499, which still seems like quite a bargain, at least on paper. I wish Naoki the best of luck with them.


I agree, still a bargain at $500. And if I didn't own one already, I'd in all odds pay it.

But Venturo only has a one year warranty(GG has two, because, Swiss movement I guess?). So for an extra $200 or so, I get an extra five years of warranty, plus stateside warranty service if needed, a better bracelet, better finishing, and a thinner watch with a higher depth rating.

Plus WOTs.

And occasionally updates on the new ****.

Speaking of, how are the v2 Tropics coming along, Doc?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Is that a rhetorical question?
> 
> Because if not, the answer is "yes", it is all about my pricing, with him.
> 
> Apparently they're now $499, which still seems like quite a bargain, at least on paper. I wish Naoki the best of luck with them.


I feel like voldermort, with the "him"

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Speaking of, how are the v2 Tropics coming along, Doc?


I dunno. We're expecting them in March/April.

The thing with production is that there really isn't any "news" until late in the process. The parts are being made. I don't even bother asking for updates anymore. There's no point.

When they're done, they're done. Until then, we're just waiting.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Doc, have you ever thought about doing a sandwich dialed sub?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

WeirdGuy said:


> Doc, have you ever thought about doing a sandwich dialed sub?


Yeah! Like a meatball sub!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Not a sub, but he's done sammiches...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

kpjimmy said:


> Not a sub, but he's done sammiches...
> View attachment 15567499
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Never seen that L&H before. I like. Also, where the hell can I get one of those cool bracelets? I see them from time-to-time on instagram, but can't seem to find who sells them. Maybe I'm just dumb.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

WeirdGuy said:


> Never seen that L&H before. I like. Also, where the hell can I get one of those cool bracelets? I see them from time-to-time on instagram, but can't seem to find who sells them. Maybe I'm just dumb.


That one has acrylic glass. I think it is his only model using that.

As for the bracelet. If you have seen it online and seen my IG, I normally tag them. They're from Australia. Ahw Studio.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Thanks for that info!


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> I feel like voldermort, with the "him"
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Voldemort's a solid achievement. Keep working as hard and we'll perhaps upgrade you to Sauron sometime next year.

Ric


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

WeirdGuy said:


> Doc, have you ever thought about doing a sandwich dialed sub?


I suspect it would make the sub thicker, if everything else is kept the same. I've never had a sandwich dial watch and still want one. I almost pulled the trigger on the venturo but I don't like the 22mm bracelet or the huge red seconds hand. The lume is droolworthy though


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Doc, have you ever thought about doing a sandwich dialed sub?


Not really. I don't think it would work. The sandwich dials are twice as thick, so when you slide the dial-movement assembly into the case, and the dial comes to rest under the ledge cut into the case wall, the whole assembly would be pushed down by the added thickness of the dial.

It's only 0.4mm, but that's enough to cause problems with clearances. I think there's only 0.25mm clearance between the movement assembly/spacer and the caseback, as an example, so you'd be potentially eating up all your clearance there.

If y'all think people wail and gnash their teeth at the Miyota rotor noise now, just wait until it's scraping against the caseback.


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> Not really. I don't think it would work. The sandwich dials are twice as thick, so when you slide the dial-movement assembly into the case, and the dial comes to rest under the ledge cut into the case wall, the whole assembly would be pushed down by the added thickness of the dial.
> 
> It's only 0.4mm, but that's enough to cause problems with clearances. I think there's only 0.25mm clearance between the movement assembly/spacer and the caseback, as an example, so you'd be potentially eating up all your clearance there.
> 
> If y'all think people wail and gnash their teeth at the Miyota rotor noise now, just wait until it's scraping against the caseback.


So what if only the bottom half of the sandwich sits unerneath that ledge. Top half of the sandwich basically just being a giant applied marker.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> So what if only the bottom half of the sandwich sits unerneath that ledge. Top half of the sandwich basically just being a giant applied marker.


I thought of that, but that probably wouldn't work.

There's got to be clearance all around that dial / movement assembly's perimeter, up to 0.25mm. You can't just make the top layer of the dial a smaller diameter and expect it to sit perfectly within the case.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Not really. I don't think it would work. The sandwich dials are twice as thick, so when you slide the dial-movement assembly into the case, and the dial comes to rest under the ledge cut into the case wall, the whole assembly would be pushed down by the added thickness of the dial.
> 
> It's only 0.4mm, but that's enough to cause problems with clearances. I think there's only 0.25mm clearance between the movement assembly/spacer and the caseback, as an example, so you'd be potentially eating up all your clearance there.
> 
> If y'all think people wail and gnash their teeth at the Miyota rotor noise now, just wait until it's scraping against the caseback.


Cut-out dial, replace date wheel with lume disk.

Are we done here?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Cut-out dial, replace date wheel with lume disk.
> 
> Are we done here?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I for one would love it if we could be done.


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

hwa said:


> Cut-out dial, replace date wheel with lume disk.
> 
> Are we done here?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Different lume color every day!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I for one would love it if we could be done.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I for one would love it if we could be done.


Would be a cool mod, but spendy to get a factory to mod all the movements. If you did it yourself, could do roulette lume

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wimads said:


> Different lume color every day!


Can you imagine the amount of complaints about a ghost date position on such a watch...


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Can you imagine the amount of complaints about a ghost date position on such a watch...


Its not a date postion, its a lume color position


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Rhorya said:


> Yeah! Like a meatball sub!


This is my favorite comment in this thread.

Maybe on WUS.

Well played, sir.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Chris, question before I go opening things up... Will the Swiftsure dial fit in the Sub case? The Seiko SKX007 dial will fit the SKX013 which is the 38mm version. Just curious if the Swiftsure and Barracuda are similar in this way?

I want the Swiftsure dial in the Barracuda. I mean, they're both great looking pieces, but I want to see what it would look like.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15568439


Hamtun Kraken H4? Delivery by the end of the Biden administration?

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

winstoda said:


> Hamtun Kraken H4? Delivery by the end of the Biden administration?
> 
> Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


More of a running joke.

But you did make me look up the H3. Not bad looking. Although not too promising that they're still not sure which of the four options they'll use for the GMT model.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> More of a running joke.
> 
> But you did make me look up the H3. Not bad looking. Although not too promising that they're still not sure which of the four options they'll use for the GMT model.


Hamtun reference was in jest as well. Some still waiting for their H2 to be delivered... You tend to get what you pay for and all that...

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Took both Swiftsure and Barracuda apart. The swap cannot be done, as the chaptering in the Swiftsure seems to be glued to the dial itself. This makes it too large to out into the subs case. Oh well. That said, I think it would look amazing if Chris did a sub with the Swiftsure dial. I'd buy one.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Maybe baking the dial for a few minutes in an oven would loosen the glue.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Why did I put this off so long? Thankful for the photos and encouragement here.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Chris, question before I go opening things up... Will the Swiftsure dial fit in the Sub case? The Seiko SKX007 dial will fit the SKX013 which is the 38mm version. Just curious if the Swiftsure and Barracuda are similar in this way?
> 
> I want the Swiftsure dial in the Barracuda. I mean, they're both great looking pieces, but I want to see what it would look like.


No.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Took both Swiftsure and Barracuda apart. The swap cannot be done, as the chaptering in the Swiftsure seems to be glued to the dial itself. This makes it too large to out into the subs case. Oh well. That said, I think it would look amazing if Chris did a sub with the Swiftsure dial. I'd buy one.


Please stop voiding your warranty on brand new watches just to satisfy curiosity.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Maybe baking the dial for a few minutes in an oven would loosen the glue.


Please stop encouraging others to void the warranties on brand new watches.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Oh, I suppose.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

WeirdGuy said:


> Took both Swiftsure and Barracuda apart. The swap cannot be done, as the chaptering in the Swiftsure seems to be glued to the dial itself. This makes it too large to out into the subs case. Oh well. That said, I think it would look amazing if Chris did a sub with the Swiftsure dial. I'd buy one.


 Bye bye 6 year warranty


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> Bye bye 6 year warranty


Not worried about it. I knew what I was doing.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Please stop encouraging others to void the warranties on brand new watches.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Don't worry, I wouldn't do that. I knew I was voiding the warranty. I'm an adult and spent the money. Next I'll be filling the watch with oil like they do with those neat Casios. ?


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3WR said:


> Why did I put this off so long? Thankful for the photos and encouragement here.
> 
> View attachment 15570555
> 
> ...


Looks great! Glad you snapped one up. ??


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Almost time to get after those Advent calendars! Hope everyone finds some peace and joy in their December traditions.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Bye bye 6 year warranty


Movement has a six year warranty not the watch unless I'm mistaken.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Movement has a six year warranty not the watch unless I'm mistaken.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Pretty neither has a warranty once you open it up yourself.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Man, this watch looks great! Just not sure if I can pull it off. I had a 39.5mm non diver watch that was just too much white. But with the Barracuda bezel it's not as much white. Still considering.


Bloom said:


>


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

RotorRonin said:


> Pretty neither has a warranty once you open it up yourself.


Couple pics of my beautiful warranty-voided Barracuda Polar on its new strap. More straps for this and my warranty-voided Swiftsure Polar, too. Pics to come.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

WeirdGuy said:


> ...warranty-voided...


If you ask nicely, Doc might ship your future purchases with a pre-voided warranty to save you some trouble.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Listen, I'm not the first one here to open one of these up. However, these are the only two I've ever opened because I was curious about the dials. No need for everyone to beat a dead horse. I'm not phased by the warranty voided. Is what it is. Still going to enjoy them.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

WeirdGuy said:


> Listen, I'm not the first one here to open one of these up. However, these are the only two I've ever opened because I was curious about the dials. No need for everyone to beat a dead horse. I'm not phased by the warranty voided. Is what it is. Still going to enjoy them.


Just jokes, mate.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

WeirdGuy said:


> Listen, I'm not the first one here to open one of these up. However, these are the only two I've ever opened because I was curious about the dials. No need for everyone to beat a dead horse. I'm not phased by the warranty voided. Is what it is. Still going to enjoy them.


This reaction is interesting since I quoted your post where you chose to include the words 'warranty-voided'. Clearly, the horse isn't dead to you since you rode it into your post.

There, is that enough attention?


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Tanker G1 said:


> This reaction is interesting since I quoted your post where you chose to include the words 'warranty-voided'. Clearly, the horse isn't dead to you since you rode it into your post.
> 
> There, is that enough attention?


I didn't even pay attention to that. So my bad. But no, more attention, please. ??


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Never heard so much yapping about $85 or whatever a new 9015 sells for these days. 

Ive opened a bunch, never damaged any. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

davek35 said:


> Man, this watch looks great! Just not sure if I can pull it off. I had a 39.5mm non diver watch that was just too much white. But with the Barracuda bezel it's not as much white. Still considering.











Just do it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

A picture from a couple of days ago, but it is still on my wrist.



















I bought an Omega PO style rubber strap with deployant clasp. It is my first try with rubber and I am impressed with this strap. This watch has removed my want for an Omega Seamaster 2254, so glad I decided to try the rubber.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Omegafanboy said:


> A picture from a couple of days ago, but it is still on my wrist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 And where did you find this rubber strap....? Tommy Likey.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Tanker G1 said:


> If you ask nicely, Doc might ship your future purchases with a pre-voided warranty to save you some trouble.


Oh course you could get Doc to just send you the watch all in bits, no need to even open it up! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Torre (Jun 3, 2011)

I own one of the older Lew & Huey watches and I love it.
Still like to get my hands on a Tikuna also.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Monday









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Never gets old. Still can't wait to get my hands on a blue Scorpene.
















Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Tycho Brahe (Nov 29, 2014)

Hey Doc speaking of modding or not modding your watches, everytime I wear my Dolphin I wish it had a black dial. Have resisted the impulse to do it and wondering if there are any plans of re-releasing earlier ones such as this in different colors?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> And where did you find this rubber strap....? Tommy Likey.


It's a cheapie from AliExpress that I got in the 11/11 sales for about £10. There are tons of them on AliExpress, just look up Omega rubber strap, but be careful to check for the ones without logos.

￡7.60 45％ Off | New 20mm Watchband Curved End Silicone Rubber Watch band with Metal for Omega strap Seamaster 300 AQUA TERRA AT150 8900 Tools








9.84US $ 45% OFF|New 20mm Watchband Curved End Silicone Rubber Watch Band With Metal For Omega Strap Seamaster 300 Aqua Terra At150 8900 Tools - Watchbands - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




a.aliexpress.com





Hilariously it is now cheaper in the Black Friday deals. I would check around as there are various design and colour options to choose from.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tycho Brahe said:


> Hey Doc speaking of modding or not modding your watches, everytime I wear my Dolphin I wish it had a black dial. Have resisted the impulse to do it and wondering if there are any plans of re-releasing earlier ones such as this in different colors?


I'm confused by, "have resisted the impulse to do it." Resisted the impulse to do what?

I haven't thought much about any more new 40mm Subs designs recently, certainly not alternate colors of the Dolphin. A black version might be something to consider for a future iteration, though.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tycho Brahe said:


> Hey Doc speaking of modding or not modding your watches, everytime I wear my Dolphin I wish it had a black dial. Have resisted the impulse to do it and wondering if there are any plans of re-releasing earlier ones such as this in different colors?


Bahia is pretty much a black dolphin.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Bahia is pretty much a black dolphin.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> Bahia is pretty much a black dolphin.


Except for indices (applied vs printed), dial texture (sunray vs matte), numbers on the dial (none vs 13-24), and hand shape (pointy vs lumpy).


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Anyone have a new Barracuda with the upgraded bracelet end-links? Can you post some pics? TIA.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bolts40 said:


> Anyone have a new Barracuda with the upgraded bracelet end-links? Can you post some pics? TIA.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk











This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Such a nice piece. Mine is on its way from WatchGauge and will be here tomorrow, so says FedEx. I don't trust them right now though. So we'll see.




www.watchuseek.com


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Black Dolphin is an Orca... ish..

Just saying’.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Orca is a crazy old Citizen...


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

bolts40 said:


> Anyone have a new Barracuda with the upgraded bracelet end-links? .... pics?


Hope this helps:


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Kinesis said:


> Just do it.


Just did it.
You all are just a bunch of enablers.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

3WR said:


> Orca is a crazy old Citizen...
> 
> View attachment 15575219


Nothing crazy about those old Citizens. I still have that one kicking around. 
Might have inspired tomorrows watch choice.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

3-1-1 said:


> Nothing crazy about those old Citizens. I still have that one kicking around.
> Might have inspired tomorrows watch choice.


Oh there is most definitely something crazy about them. But let's do this.

Left is still on a sub honeymoon. Right is available for craziness.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Please no wanted to trade or wanted to buy posts in regular forums - Thanks Mods.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> Edited
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I sense shenanigans....


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I sense shenanigans....
> View attachment 15578124


Warranty voiding foolishness, to be sure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

3WR said:


> Oh there is most definitely something crazy about them. But let's do this.
> 
> Left is still on a sub honeymoon. Right is available for craziness.
> 
> ...


Well maybe a little wacky, but I still love it. Coming strong with the full Ti bracelet, unlimited power, and deadly accuracy.









Will we ever see a titanium NTH?
Scurfa's D1-500 (what I consider to be the perfect quartz companion/equivalent of the Subs) recently dipped its toes in those waters and can't keep em in stock.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

A titanium NTH would be sweet!

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't have any plans for a titanium model.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I don't have any plans for a titanium model.


Thus it begins again


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Thus it begins again


swiftsure condensed down, to 40mm, and Titanium....


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Bronze...?

Meanwhile, this one still sees regular rotation wrist time...










Sorry to intrude on the Citizen "Orca" thread... as you were.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

A few days ago I said 'I did it'. Well, it arrived today. I have to say I like it more than I thought I would. The white doesn't wear large at all. Both Barracudas are from the recent release with new end links and no ghost stops. I feel lucky to have them, even though my watch money has dried up for now.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

davek35 said:


> A few days ago I said 'I did it'. Well, it arrived today. I have to say I like it more than I thought I would. The white doesn't wear large at all. Both Barracudas are from the recent release with new end links and no ghost stops. I feel lucky to have them, even though my watch money has dried up for now.
> 
> View attachment 15579219


Nice black and white combo.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> Nice black and white combo.


Thanks. I've noticed that I'm finding watches I like the feel and look of, and enjoying variations of those watches rather than trying different brands. I think my 'shopping' days are about done. Nth Barracuda and Bolealis Adraga are watches for me. The white Adraga was a little bit too much white for me.

Here is a comparison of 2 watches with the same crystal size. The Bertucci has a 36mm case, but a very busy dial. I prefer the Barracuda dial.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)




----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Very satisfied with this one 👍


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## Bpcirillo (Jul 10, 2018)

mplsabdullah said:


> Very satisfied with this one
> View attachment 15581900
> 
> View attachment 15581901
> ...


Looks great on that green nato

IG: wound_too_tight
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 15579505


There are a few models which really look better with the BoP bracelet, like they were intended to have them, and this is definitely one of them...


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Thanks for this pic! With this strap added I realized another reason why I may have been drawn to this watch. As unintentional as the Polar's color may be, the Gulf sponsored Ford GT40 and Porshe 917 had these similar colors. Loved that era of racing!












WeirdGuy said:


> View attachment 15579582


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

davek35 said:


> Thanks for this pic! With this strap added I realized another reason why I may have been drawn to this watch. As unintentional as the Polar's color may be, the Gulf sponsored Ford GT40 and Porshe 917 had these similar colors. Loved that era of racing!
> 
> View attachment 15582282


I'm actually in the hunt for a nice Gulf Racing colored single pass. You're not the only one who sees it!


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

davek35 said:


> Thanks for this pic! With this strap added I realized another reason why I may have been drawn to this watch. As unintentional as the Polar's color may be, the Gulf sponsored Ford GT40 and Porshe 917 had these similar colors. Loved that era of racing!
> 
> View attachment 15582282


I'm a car guy and the Gulf livery is what I thought of as well when I saw the strap and dial color combo on the Barracuda and Swiftsure Polars. I have the same strap for my Swiftsure as well.


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> I'm actually in the hunt for a nice Gulf Racing colored single pass. You're not the only one who sees it!


Here you go.









Marine Nationale Strap Gulf CNS & Watch Bands


Our Paratrooper strap has been very popular due to the single layer, giving the strap a low profile. But many of our customers have asked us to do something more similar to the




www.cheapestnatostraps.com


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> There are a few models which really look better with the BoP bracelet, like they were intended to have them, and this is definitely one of them...


I actually have a couple NTH bors. I tried one on this and it just didn't click with me at the moment. I strongly prefer them on a couple other NTHs I have. In person to my eye on my wrist this white barracuda looks great on all the nato's I've tried so I'll probably be doing that for a while. 👍


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

Finally catching up on the latest shenanigans here. Love the shots of the polar dials. Got some 35mm film developed recently and forgot I took this shot of the Amphion...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Monday









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

I like the University of Illinois nato.



kpjimmy said:


> Monday
> View attachment 15586246
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Do you still call it a "rocket" when it is sword hands?


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

3WR said:


> Do you still call it a "rocket" when it is sword hands?
> 
> View attachment 15588486


Nice try


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Nice try


Ah-hah.

Now I know what he meant. I was lost there for a bit.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Do you still call it a "rocket" when it is sword hands?
> 
> View attachment 15588486


No. No we don't.

It's only that Seiko handset that makes a rocket when they all overlap.

I don't know of any other handsets that make something cool when they overlap.

Here's some cock hands though...


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)




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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Ill definitely be getting an NTH watch, after my self-imposed buy ban...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Cock hands, in action:


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Cock hands, in action:
> 
> View attachment 15590105


great looking watch.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLittle said:


> Ill definitely be getting an NTH watch, after my self-imposed buy ban...


Buy bans of any sort are highly discouraged around these parts.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Twehttam said:


>


Dadgum that NTH Kiger is a beauty...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Anyone know if a 28.5mm Seiko dial would work in an NTH sub case with dial dots?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Anyone know if a 28.5mm Seiko dial would work in an NTH sub case with dial dots?


It will not. The dial opening is larger than that.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> It will not. The dial opening is larger than that.


I love the NTH watches. There are like, I don't know, nine or so that scream buy me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Anyone know if a 28.5mm Seiko dial would work in an NTH sub case with dial dots?


Actually, I just looked at the engineering diagram for the case, and the dial opening is 28mm.

So...typically, the dial is going to be 1mm larger in diameter, than the dial opening, so that you have 0.5mm of dial all around, sitting under the dial opening ledge, keeping the dial + movement assembly in place.

You'd be cutting it VERY close with the 28.5mm dial. With only 0.5mm difference, you'd only have 0.25mm of dial extending past the dial opening ledge inside the case.

The movement spacer is 0.5mm smaller in diameter than the case opening, so there's 0.25mm clearance all around it. If anything shifts around, by up to 0.25mm, you still have another 0.25mm of dial sitting under that ledge (with the stock 29mm dial).

In other words, with a 28.5mm dial, you'd have exactly the same amount of dial under that ledge as there is clearance inside the case, or, to put it another way, you can't have ANY parts that are slightly smaller than spec (but within the manufacturing tolerances), or ANY parts shift around inside the case, at all.

Can it work? Theoretically, it's possible. But I wouldn't recommend it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLittle said:


> How does your company make so many awesome watches?


Faustian bargain I made with Mephistopheles, 8 years ago.

In exchange for long hours and meager pay, I get to be internet famous with a bunch of watch geeks.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> Faustian bargain I made with Mephistopheles, 8 years ago.
> 
> In exchange for long hours and meager pay, I get to be internet famous with a bunch of watch geeks.


Sounds like a win/win situation


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Actually, I just looked at the engineering diagram for the case, and the dial opening is 28mm.
> 
> So...typically, the dial is going to be 1mm larger in diameter, than the dial opening, so that you have 0.5mm of dial all around, sitting under the dial opening ledge, keeping the dial + movement assembly in place.
> 
> ...


PS - I see Raffles Time sells 29mm dials (same size as stock), but I _think_ the Subs case could accommodate a dial up to 32mm diameter, though I also think that would result in some of the minute track and/or hour markers being partially obscured. You probably don't want to try fitting any dial larger than 29mm if it has applied hour indices.

I don't know why you'd want to fit a Raffles dial, or even a Seiko or any other aftermarket dial. Our dials are much better quality.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Im like shocked that you even took the time to respond!! Who are you? What did you do with the real Doc?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Anyone know if a 28.5mm Seiko dial would work in an NTH sub case with dial dots?


Check with @jelliottz He modded a few prototypes, including this one. Dial from the bay. Of course your warranty would be gone. 😁


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Im like shocked that you even took the time to respond!! Who are you? What did you do with the real Doc?


Where are you in the sandbox? The new fan @JLittle did three tours there...

EDIT: typo fixed


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Im like shocked that you even took the time to respond!! Who are you? What did you do with the real Doc?


Seriously? C'mon, broseph. If I have a fault, it's not refusing to answer peep's questions. If anything, I'm too willing to entertain almost any query.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Where are you in the sandbox? The new fan @JLittle did four tours there...


No $hlt? Jlittle is a gulf war vet?

Mad props.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone wondering, or patiently waiting on the next release of 40mm Subs...

My vendor told me a couple days ago that they expect to ship us the next batch of Subs by late next week. With holiday and covid-19-related shipping delays, customs clearance, and other bull$hlt, I doubt we'll receive them any sooner than early the following week, but maybe not until the middle of that week, if then.

Of course, watchmaker Dan works for me part-time, so we're at the mercy of his schedule when it comes to QC. And also, the week we're talking about now ends with Christmas. And as much of a loon as Dan is, I don't expect him to be doing QC on the wee baby *****'s birthday.

Assuming everything goes as well as conceivably possible, my hunch is we won't be able to ship the watches to our retail partners until just before New Year's, and they won't have them ready for sale until the first full week of January - at the absolute earliest.

Typically, not everything goes that well. Almost invariably, we end up getting a partial shipment from my vendor, or dealing with delays in customs clearance, or Dan's other job will decide to jam his schedule with extra hours, so QC takes longer, etc.

I think it's probably a safer bet to expect the watches to be available for purchase the second week of January (the one starting the 11th).


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't know why you'd want to fit a Raffles dial, or even a Seiko or any other aftermarket dial. Our dials are much better quality.


Mainly because I don't have 499 friends, to say nothing of 499 who want the same watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Mainly because I don't have 499 friends, to say nothing of 499 who want the same watch.


One sympathizes.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Here's a fun recent video (not mine, just found it on YT), looking at the white nazario and two other white divers (sinn 104 and zelos horzo)


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 15590872


You see Doc?

I kniw this is a trick of lighting, but the Scorpene would look pretty sweet cased in bronze!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You see Doc?
> 
> I kniw this is a trick of lighting, but the Scorpene would look pretty sweet cased in bronze!


No plans for bronze.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> No plans for bronze.


Yes, yes, I know.

But its fun to dream. More fun to pester.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Yes, yes, I know.
> 
> But its fun to dream. More fun to pester.


You should try shooting down suggestions.

It's pure ecstasy.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> You should try shooting down suggestions.
> 
> It's pure ecstasy.


Any chance we can get a HAQ quartz bronze GMT with a sandwich dial and tritium hands? In blue?


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> HAQ quartz


high accuracy quartz quartz?

Now we're talking.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Any chance we can get a HAQ quartz bronze GMT with a sandwich dial and tritium hands? In blue?


No plans.

OMG, that hits the sweet spot.

Anyone got any other suggestions?

I can do this all day.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

On a jubilee?

I crack me up


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Any chance we can get a HAQ quartz bronze GMT with a sandwich dial and tritium hands? In blue?


I'd rather a 8215 non hacker, titanium, acrylic crystal, 47mm, flieger diver with a fixed bezel, press fit caseback, 11m wr, and a screw down crown with integrated rubber nato, puce dial....

Hand delivered by the Doctor, in bib overalls...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Here's what Santa plans to get me in 2021, probably in this order actually...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> PS - I see Raffles Time sells 29mm dials (same size as stock), but I _think_ the Subs case could accommodate a dial up to 32mm diameter, though I also think that would result in some of the minute track and/or hour markers being partially obscured. You probably don't want to try fitting any dial larger than 29mm if it has applied hour indices.
> 
> I don't know why you'd want to fit a Raffles dial, or even a Seiko or any other aftermarket dial. Our dials are much better quality.


Call it 31.5. Starts squeaking after that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> On a jubilee?
> 
> I crack me up


With milled endlinks, FFS

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Where are you in the sandbox? The new fan @JLittle did three tours there...
> 
> EDIT: typo fixed


Qatar actually. Working on a DOD project somewhere in the middle of the desert in the center of the country somewhere.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Rhorya said:


> Qatar actually. Working on a DOD project somewhere in the middle of the desert in the center of the country somewhere.


I was in Qatar in 2010


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Obviously, the Nacken Vintage Blue is the ultimate sub.  But dang the Red Ronin is a good looking SOB! This time on leather.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> No plans.
> 
> OMG, that hits the sweet spot.
> 
> ...


Well if you won't do bronze Doc, what about brass? 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Well if you won't do bronze Doc, what about brass?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


And titanium. You forgot to mention titanium. On a titanium jubilee. With a glidelock. Or better, yet, bogart that clasp that IWC uses on the pilot, and charges $3k to get. Main reason I don't have one....


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## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

Rhorya said:


> Qatar actually. Working on a DOD project somewhere in the middle of the desert in the center of the country somewhere.


I always wondered what Santa did in his downtime... 1 day working on the nice list, 364 correcting the naughty list...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Firecrow911 said:


> I always wondered what Santa did in his downtime... 1 day working on the nice list, 364 correcting the naughty list...


The nice list is so short....


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

NTH in bronze? Try this:










There's always a solution if you think outside the padded room!


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Burned stuff and drank alcohol with Odin last night


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Nacken Modern Blue vs Nacken Vintage Blue: same shade dial or is vintage darker?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> Nacken Modern Blue vs Nacken Vintage Blue: same shade dial or is vintage darker?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmmm... Seems like you might already know this. Maybe this is an inside joke. In case it's not, I think vintage looks darker.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

3WR said:


> Hmmm... Seems like you might already know this. Maybe this is an inside joke. In case it's not, I think vintage looks darker.
> 
> View attachment 15594578


Perspective is weird man. That "smaller" Nacken looks amazing.

doc... make 38mm subs!! 

I think they're the same shade, with the vintage appearing darker because of the texture creating a loss of reflected light, and the vintage lume.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> Perspective is weird man. That "smaller" Nacken looks amazing.
> 
> doc... make 38mm subs!!
> 
> I think they're the same shade, with the vintage appearing darker because of the texture creating a loss of reflected light, and the vintage lume.


I'm not touching the 38mm thing. 

Another angle...


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## b-boy (Jan 25, 2014)

92gli said:


> Burned stuff and drank alcohol with Odin last night
> View attachment 15594012


So nice!


----------



## b-boy (Jan 25, 2014)

Tanker G1 said:


> Here's what Santa plans to get me in 2021, probably in this order actually...
> 
> View attachment 15591486


This dial looks amazing!


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## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Might be an odd question, but here it goes:

I own a barracuda vintage black and I adore it. As it's dressy enough for my taste, I like to wear it at work too. There the barracuda starts to tear on the cuffs of my shirts 
The bezel has kind of sharp edges and it starts to show 

The only idea I had is to sand it somehow, but I really dislike that idea, as I don't want to ruin the watch.
Anyone else had this issue?

Gesendet von meinem Mi 9T mit Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Poerger said:


> Might be an odd question, but here it goes:
> 
> I own a barracuda vintage black and I adore it. As it's dressy enough for my taste, I like to wear it at work too. There the barracuda starts to tear on the cuffs of my shirts
> The bezel has kind of sharp edges and it starts to show
> ...


Criminal offense.

New and tougher shirts are obviously in order.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Nacken Modern Blue vs Nacken Vintage Blue: same shade dial or is vintage darker?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had to find the Pantone for the vintage blue.

Here they are, side by side. Decide for yourself.










Vintage Blue is more saturated, which to some might be seen as "brighter", but I'd say it's more correct to say it's simply more vibrant. Though it could also be argued the other way. The more saturated colors have higher numerical values on the RGB scale (red-green-blue), and as such would be closer to "white". which has the highest RGB values, than they'd be to "black", which has the lowest values.

They have roughly equivalent proportions of green vs blue vs red, more or less.

And when I look at the groupings of Pantone colors, within the MS program I have, they're both the darkest color within their respective groups.

I suppose you could say the vintage blue is a dark teal, and the modern blue is an even darker teal.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Question for the group -

What's the absolute most you'd pay for a high-quality, real rubber, fitted (curved end, to fit the case) strap for the NTH Subs or any other model? By "high quality", what I mean is a real rubber compound (not silicone), one of the higher-grade, more durable compounds, and with good hardware.

When I looked online, most of what I saw was either silicone, not rubber, so on the low end of the price scale, or at the other extreme, $65 for something from Crafter Blue, which I think are VERY good straps, and not very expensive, when you compare to Everest, or some of the "fits Rolex" straps on Amazon - the first one I saw was almost $100.

My vendor found me a few possible suppliers of fitted rubber straps. I just received a couple samples. Waiting on at least one or two more. So far, they seem pretty decent. It took a bit of wrestling to get the two 20mm straps I got onto the Subs' case, but the 22mm I got snicked into place like it was made for the 2K1's.

That said, the fitted end isn't a perfect match for the lugs of either case. Their a bit thick at that end, such that the straps' upper surface sits a little bit proud of the lugs. I'm hoping the sample(s) I'm awaiting from the other supplier(s) might be a little thinner. They certainly look a little nicer.

EDIT - I should probably add - these are NOT the same as the "natural" rubber straps I've sold in the past. Leaving aside any debate about how "natural" those "natural rubber" straps truly are, these would be unscented, real rubber straps. I didn't scour the internet, but what searching I did turned up very few examples of real rubber, fitted straps, at any price.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Probably no more than $125.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

I'd pay a premium for shorter sizes. I don't wear many rubber straps other than Barton's elite silicone because they are perfect in length.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Question for the group -
> 
> What's the absolute most you'd pay for a high-quality, real rubber, fitted strap for the NTH Subs or any other model? By "high quality", what I mean is a real rubber compound (not silicone), one of the higher-grade, more durable compounds, and with good hardware.
> 
> ...


Man, I'd say it really would all depend on the quality of the rubber. A Bonetto Cinturini/Zuludiver on a deployant from Watch Gecko goes for $61. And thats some good Italian rubber, imho(plus I love that vanilla scent). But those aren't fitted, and aren't brand specific.

For a fitted and _hopefully _branded rubber strap I'd probably scoop one up if it stayed under $100. Maybe a little more? I can't really say.

Could we maybe see the samples? And what colors are you considering?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLittle said:


> Probably no more than $125.


Hah!

Don't worry, we won't be charging that much.



kpjimmy said:


> I'd pay a premium for shorter sizes. I don't wear many rubber straps other than Barton's elite silicone because they are perfect in length.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Hmmm....

I think these are "standard' size, but the samples I have so far all have two floating keepers, as opposed to one floating and one fixed, if that makes any difference.

My wrist is ~7 inches around. If I cinch the straps on the 40mm Subs tight, I'm in the middle hole. If I wear it a little loose, like I prefer, I'm closer to the big end. I think you'd be okay, down to about a ~6 or 6.25 inch wrist. The difference between the smallest hole (or the largest) and the middle hole is 22mm, or 0.86 inches.



TheBearded said:


> Man, I'd say it really would all depend on the quality of the rubber. A Bonetto Cinturini/Zuludiver on a deployant from Watch Gecko goes for $61. And thats some good Italian rubber, imho(plus I love that vanilla scent). But those aren't fitted, and aren't brand specific.
> 
> For a fitted and _hopefully _branded rubber strap I'd probably scoop one up if it stayed under $100. Maybe a little more? I can't really say.
> 
> Could we maybe see the samples? And what colors are you considering?


I'll post pics if I make a decision one way or the other, about which strap to order, or if I want input before making that decision.

So far, the samples I have aren't especially intricate in their design. They're your basic, smooth-surface, tapering rubber strap. No flourishes in the designs, at all, unlike the other samples I'm waiting on, which are a bit more visually interesting.

I'm honestly unsure which design I prefer, so I may want others' opinions, once I get the other samples in hand.

One thing I find interesting, since I just measured them, is that the taper is slightly more than 2mm. The 20's taper to 17.72mm where they connect to the buckle, and the 22 tapers to 19.62mm.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

More important that fitted ends, actual material, or even quality of hardware to me is whether it’s a lint-magnet. If it is smooth and doesn’t attract lint, I’m probably in just to try it. 

Here’s a weird thought: rubber/silicone/whatever doesn’t work for me well because unless it’s cinched tight, the tendency for the strap to want to be straight makes for an odd fit and feeling. Stretching it tight defeats the purpose of a comfortable strap. 

Leather and most other materials stretch and eventually achieve a natural curve. Rubber/silicone/similar doesn’t. I wonder if anyone has ever tried making a rubber strap that was molded in a curve. 

I know, I’m weird.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> More important that fitted ends, actual material, or even quality of hardware to me is whether it's a lint-magnet. If it is smooth and doesn't attract lint, I'm probably in just to try it.
> 
> Here's a weird thought: rubber/silicone/whatever doesn't work for me well because unless it's cinched tight, the tendency for the strap to want to be straight makes for an odd fit and feeling. Stretching it tight defeats the purpose of a comfortable strap.
> 
> ...


It won't make it perfect, but it will give it a bit of a curve.

Take each end of the strap and put it into a small glass or shot glass. Heat water to boiling, pour it in the glass onto the strap. Let it sit in the heat for a bit. Kinda like molding a new mouthguard for contact sports. Worked pretty good for me, ymmv.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> More important that fitted ends, actual material, or even quality of hardware to me is whether it's a lint-magnet. If it is smooth and doesn't attract lint, I'm probably in just to try it.
> 
> Here's a weird thought: rubber/silicone/whatever doesn't work for me well because unless it's cinched tight, the tendency for the strap to want to be straight makes for an odd fit and feeling. Stretching it tight defeats the purpose of a comfortable strap.
> 
> ...


The "lint magnets" tend to be the cheap silicone straps, hence, why we want real rubber. Some silicone straps, especially the cheaper/older ones, tended to be super-stiff at first, requiring a long break-in period to conform to your wrist.

I've found it difficult to get a good fit with the natural rubber straps we've sold in the past. Despite the fact that they're reasonably soft and pliable, they're still just a little too stiff. I've had better luck with the new, ultra-soft silicone straps on Seiko's mid-range divers (like the one that came with my SBDC053), and the real rubber straps, like the samples I just received, which feel pretty similar to the Seiko silicone, in terms of pliability.

Overall, I liked the tropic-style straps we got for the Antilles and Azores, but I found that I needed some break-in time with them to get a good fit, without that stiff-gap thing you've described happening.

The samples I have are a different rubber compound than the one we use with the tropic-style straps. As pliable as those tropic straps are, these are still a bit more pliable. I've been wearing one on a Swiftsure, and there's no stiffness to it, at all. It fits great, right out of the box. It's making me think I may add a 2K1 to my collection, after all. The watch doesn't feel quite as big, off the bracelet, for whatever reason.

Tomorow, I'll see if the 22mm I've got on the Swiftsure also fits the DevilRay, and if the 20's also fit the Tropics. If so, that's a big win.

I sold the leather straps we had made for the Lew & Huey Phantom, and the straps we had made for the Acionna, and the Spectre. The Phantom straps were very nice. The others, not so much. They were just okay.

The problem is that there are just so many peeps selling so many decent leather straps, in so many varieties, many with great prices. I don't really see the point in me venturing into that arena, where I don't have any real expertise, and don't have the time to find some way to differentiate.

I don't feel that way about the rubber straps, especially if they're fitted, since there appear to be very few people selling good-quality fitted rubber straps, especially straps which would actually fit our watches, as opposed to being made specifically for Seiko or Rolex.

In that thread I started about NTH, in the divers watches sub-forum, one of the most common bits of feedback was about people preferring rubber straps, especially fitted, to the steel bracelets. I still find that surprising, but adding some rubber to the website is easy enough, so long as I can source the straps we want.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> It won't make it perfect, but it will give it a bit of a curve.
> 
> Take each end of the strap and put it into a small glass or shot glass. Heat water to boiling, pour it in the glass onto the strap. Let it sit in the heat for a bit. Kinda like molding a new mouthguard for contact sports. Worked pretty good for me, ymmv.


FOR GOD'S SAKE TAKE THE STRAP OFF THE WATCH FIRST!!!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> FOR GOD'S SAKE TAKE THE STRAP OFF THE WATCH FIRST!!!


Ok, that made me laugh out loud...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> It won't make it perfect, but it will give it a bit of a curve.
> 
> Take each end of the strap and put it into a small glass or shot glass. Heat water to boiling, pour it in the glass onto the strap. Let it sit in the heat for a bit. Kinda like molding a new mouthguard for contact sports. Worked pretty good for me, ymmv.


That's a great idea. I've done that with other oil-based products, not sure why it never occurred to me to do here! I'll give it a ...wait for it... shot.



docvail said:


> FOR GOD'S SAKE TAKE THE STRAP OFF THE WATCH FIRST!!!


Nah, I'll just unscrew the crown so the heat can escape!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Qatar actually. Working on a DOD project somewhere in the middle of the desert in the center of the country somewhere.


Off topic update: the wonky Glycine Airman has made it to Wilson Watch Works on your recommendation. BTW, you may be getting back just in time for the epidemic to be over. Great timing...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Back on topic: Doc, I love rubber/silicone straps, but hate buckles. If you could get your fitted strap with a clasp (i.e. Bonetto Cinturini), I'd pay for it...

Longines has a nice rubber "strap clasp" that doesn't look too "proprietary" on the VHP GMT. Searching for a photo...

EDIT: Found one.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Back on topic: Doc, I love rubber/silicone straps, but hate buckles. If you could get your fitted strap with a clasp (i.e. Bonetto Cinturini), I'd pay for it...
> 
> Longines has a nice rubber "strap clasp" that doesn't look too "proprietary" on the VHP GMT. Searching for a photo...


How do you get a good fit with those? Do you have to cut the strap to fit, or what?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> How do you get a good fit with those? Do you have to cut the strap to fit, or what?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Yeah, you cut it. I found a photo while you were asking. They have a hole every couple of milimeters, and you cut it to fit. If you haven't cut one previously, it's easy to screw it up. But that has a back-side positive: You sell more straps...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> How do you get a good fit with those? Do you have to cut the strap to fit, or what?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Yeah, the BCs are cut to fit. Its about 3-4 little holes on each piece to get the right fit. Each unused hole actually has a little steel rod in it you need to remove if you wanna use that one for the spring bar.

Edit: you can actually buy individual pieces for the exact reason that Emmons mentioned.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

As to the clasp, I've put NTH clasps on Bonetto straps. It looks great:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah....this feels like a bad idea. What's wrong with regular straps with regular buckles?


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Yeah....this feels like a bad idea. What's wrong with regular straps with regular buckles?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Nothing.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Yeah....this feels like a bad idea. What's wrong with regular straps with regular buckles?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I agree with nothing, but this is one of those MANY things where personal preferences diverge. I like less stuff on my wrist (strap ends, etc) and the clasp is slimmer. I hit my arm on everything. Every watch I've ever owned is scratched as I fling my hand around the cockpit. So the less stuff sticking out, for me, the better. Same reason I've never bonded with NATOs.

YMMV...

And I can always keep buying the Bonettos...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Agree on nothing. I've got two BCs on deployant, one not. The one with a standard buckle is actually more comfortable. But I did have to punch my own hole in it. Which is easy with leather punches.

Edit: I assume you'll be forgoing deployant for a standard tang/buckle. I know you're all about quality, so a quality branded buckle would be nice. I hate replacing sh!tty ones. Even sell 'em individually. I can't speak for 499 other folks, but I know I'd probably buy 2-3. When I got my GG the first thing I did was add 2 extra bronze buckles to the cart. Got a spare pair of screw bars gratis too, even offered to pay for em.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Also a fan of the clasp-style rubber strap. But I'd buy a regular buckle-style fitted strap in a heartbeat. 20mm for Sub-style, please...


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I haven't met a fitted end rubber strap I've liked and won't buy another one. In every case the ends that attach to the lugs were too stiff, had a sharp downward curve off the lugs, or both. They always made the watch rotate off the top of my wrist unless I kept it too tight. This was with one Ball watch and 2 omega planet oceans. They were very expensive straps and they all sucked.

There's really no watches that a Barton elite silicone doesn't work well with. They could be a tad thicker, but I keep going buying them. What I really want is an isofrane, but slightly thinner, and with a 2mm taper. Come up with something_ like_ that, but make it your own, and I'll buy it.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Monday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’m not a fan of fitted rubber straps, I’ve yuuuge wrists (just under 81/4”, and flat) apparently. The only ones that don’t leave daylight under the caseback, have larger lug to lug length length. Only one still has its strap on it, it’s a Bulova Sea King UHF 3 hander(big watch). 

However, I know I’m an outlier. They do look great on normal wrists, and are probably pretty comfy. They just don’t work on me, unless I want to wear a “normal” sized watch on the sides of my wrist. 

I’m sure they’ll be a great success though, and adding a rubber option is a good move.

Also, I do like rubber deployment straps, but only 1/74th of my stockpile has one installed... 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

O2straps sells fitted rubber straps for $40. They are definitely rubber just not sure what level, pretty sure same as Zealande. Also pretty sure 20mm fitted straps made for subs fit the nth subs but I only had them in 22mm so never tried. AliX also sells these for $20 and there are Finjin rubber straps on Amazon prime if someone wants to try on NTH subs, will prolly fit. 








Amazon.com: 20mm/21mm Rubber Watchband Strap w/Tang Buckle Fit for Rolex GMT Yatch Master 16622 Watches : Everything Else


Amazon.com: 20mm/21mm Rubber Watchband Strap w/Tang Buckle Fit for Rolex GMT Yatch Master 16622 Watches : Everything Else



www.amazon.com





so about 40-50 max is what id pay for one.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My concerns with the straps on deployant clasp are that I'm not entirely enthused about the idea of customers getting a strap that isn't ready-to-wear, right out of the box, and what happens if someone's wrist size changes. 

In the latter scenario, if someone's wrist size expands, the strap is worthless. In the former scenario, I'd have to provide detailed instructions for how to size the strap, and deal with customers who make mistakes. I know someone will insist that we replace a strap they ruined because our instructions weren't clear enough.

As much as I like the convenience of having a customized fit with a bracelet, I think I'll go with the standard buckle and straps.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Re. Prices for rubber straps: 40-50 USD, max, and at those prices I'd think twice about the cost vs benefit. 20 to 30 and I'm more relaxed and more likely to take a punt. 

Edit: In fairness, I am often astounded by the prices some people are willing to pay for straps, especially for watches at the cheaper end of the market, so may be an outlier. 

Of course, as with everything, there are grades of quality, but it often seems to me that a lot of higher-price strap sellers really take the proverbial, and that puts me right off. 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

I've always appreciated the look of fitted end link rubber but not the actual on wrist feel. I think offering something like a Barton elite or the rubber straps that halios and Astor and banks give with their kits is the way to go. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I have a Crafter Blue that works a treat with my Sumo. Like the material. Like the many, closely spaced holes. Like how it keeps the watch centered on my wrist unlike any other option I’ve tried on that particular watch. Like the price - because I received it as a gift. 

Have never caught myself wishing for similar for Subs but curious to see where this goes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

I need to see pics of the Barracuda brown please. I've read that the brown is much better in real life.. your opinions please. With an upcoming order date approaching, i need to make up my mind about this watch. Thanks!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> I need to see pics of the Barracuda brown please. I've read that the brown is much better in real life.. your opinions please. With an upcoming order date approaching, i need to make up my mind about this watch. Thanks!







__





nth barracuda brown - Google Search






www.google.com





There are also several real-world photos on the product page of the website:









Barracuda - Brown


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Yep, I've poured over those pics. There is one nice video out there, too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Yep, I've poured over those pics. There is one nice video out there, too.


Well there you go.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FWIW, we have a return policy for a reason, and this is basically it. If you don't like the watch when you get it, don't wear it, just send it back for a refund.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Regarding rubber straps. I wear all my watches on bracelets, I even go as far as hunting for bracelets to fit my watches that did not come with one as standard ( L&H Phantom and Halios Seaforth).

Over the last year I have been seeing more and more images of nice dive watches on funky rubber straps so I decided to source a curved end version for my subs. I ended up choosing an Omega style with a deployant buckle from Aliexpress. I have to say I was surprised, and my Odin looks great and feels super comfortable on my wrist. Even better is the clasp that allows for adjustment without messing with the strap.

While I was reading through this thread the ads that came up felt rather appropriate to the discussion. I have the one on the right on my Odin.









If we could get an official NTH branded deployant buckle on a curved end rubber strap, in some different colours, then I would probably be interested in adding one or two.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Wonders never cease. Crafter blue made something like an isofrane with a taper and decided 22mm is the only size that matters


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## sculldogg86 (Feb 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> As much as I like the convenience of having a customized fit with a bracelet, I think I'll go with the standard buckle and straps.


Maybe a compromise is a nice NTH signed chunky buckle with a cool design


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Perhaps Sparky could make a re-appearance on the buckle.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

While you’re designing the better buckle, perhaps a reverso case to counterbalance it. 

Make it in some titanium brass alloy. 

In blue. 

Deliver it in 2020. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> While you're designing the better buckle, perhaps a reverso case to counterbalance it.
> 
> Make it in some titanium brass alloy.
> 
> ...


I'm all over it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Seeing as I dont really do social media, I figure I'll post this here. I'm visiting an old friend in Maryland for vacation. Got out to DC today and did some wandering around. Snapped this toward the end of the day.








Sorry. No gratuitous watch shots. But I did wear my Swiftsure.


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## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

docvail said:


> Question for the group -
> 
> What's the absolute most you'd pay for a high-quality, real rubber, fitted (curved end, to fit the case) strap for the NTH Subs or any other model? By "high quality", what I mean is a real rubber compound (not silicone), one of the higher-grade, more durable compounds, and with good hardware.
> 
> My vendor found me a few possible suppliers of fitted rubber straps. I just received a couple samples. Waiting on at least one or two more. So far, they seem pretty decent. It took a bit of wrestling to get the two 20mm straps I got onto the Subs' case, but the 22mm I got snicked into place like it was made for the 2K1's.


For a custom fit, I'd go $75-100. Like the sound of this "like it was made for the 2K1's". Been eyeing that blue Thresher the past week...


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

DuckaDiesel said:


> O2straps sells fitted rubber straps for $40. They are definitely rubber just not sure what level, pretty sure same as Zealande. Also pretty sure 20mm fitted straps made for subs fit the nth subs but I only had them in 22mm so never tried. AliX also sells these for $20 and there are Finjin rubber straps on Amazon prime if someone wants to try on NTH subs, will prolly fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The $15 Finjin straps from Amazon fit NTH subs perfectly. Fluorine rubber, same quality (if not the same strap entirely) as other sellers who aren't charging $15.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Seeing as I dont really do social media, I figure I'll post this here. I'm visiting an old friend in Maryland for vacation. Got out to DC today and did some wandering around. Snapped this toward the end of the day.
> View attachment 15601001
> 
> Sorry. No gratuitous watch shots. But I did wear my Swiftsure.


My 'hood. You must be close.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Question for the group -
> 
> What's the absolute most you'd pay for a high-quality, real rubber, fitted (curved end, to fit the case) strap for the NTH Subs or any other model? By "high quality", what I mean is a real rubber compound (not silicone), one of the higher-grade, more durable compounds, and with good hardware.
> 
> ...


I would pay $75-$125 depending on design and buckle options. A high quality rubber or silicone strap is really hard to beat for wearable comfort and durability.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Peteagus said:


> The $15 Finjin straps from Amazon fit NTH subs perfectly. Fluorine rubber, same quality (if not the same strap entirely) as other sellers who aren't charging $15.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice, yeah I cant see Zealande being any better quality, down to the buckle.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Seeing as I dont really do social media, I figure I'll post this here. I'm visiting an old friend in Maryland for vacation. Got out to DC today and did some wandering around. Snapped this toward the end of the day.
> View attachment 15601001
> 
> Sorry. No gratuitous watch shots. But I did wear my Swiftsure.


You do know it's going to be messy Wednesday, right?


hwa said:


> My 'hood. You must be close.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 He'll be able to see how the citizens of the DMV freak out at the first snowflake!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

hwa said:


> My 'hood. You must be close.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Saw your PM, Im kicking it out in Owings. Buddy of mine I grew up with down in Texas moved up here a little over a year ago for a new position. He's working at Andrews AFB. PAG/VIPSAM.



RmacMD said:


> You do know it's going to be messy Wednesday, right?
> 
> He'll be able to see how the citizens of the DMV freak out at the first snowflake!


I heard. And I live in Texas man. Folks down there shut down the city when there's a _hint_ of snow.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Typically DC: snow then rain. Meh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Just gonna toss this out there - do one of those fitted rubber straps in the style with the clasp, and NTH can dip into a parts bin or add-on clasps with a regular order of clasps for the Sub bracelets...


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

An NTH branded version of this style of clasp could work with rubber or leather and would really improve the look over a standard tang buckle. It give that on the fly adjustment and looks good too.
















Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

First all DLC Thresher in the wild?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

And a switchover to the Skipjack because its Wednesday!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> First all DLC Thresher in the wild?


You like? What do you think of it?


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Rhorya said:


> First all DLC Thresher in the wild?


Beautiful. They make some nice looking watches.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> You like? What do you think of it?


Ok, im a fanboy of DLC watches to begin with. So +1.

The stark contrast of white hands on black dial gives me quick time at a glance. And the minute hand actually reaches and touches the minute indicators is another +1.

The blueish lume is not as bright as the green, and i would have preferred a lume as bright as the white patches would suggest they are capable of. -1

No finicky back play on the bezel, +1.

The date window tucks nicely at the 6 with a lume hour marker giving balance to the layout, +1.

Although its a little larger watch case, it is still very light on the wrist and wears flat, +2.

Nice taper to the bracelet and the clasp is the correct size, not steroided out like the devil ray. +1.

I have hair on my wrist and the tight gaps between the links have pulled a few hairs. -1

Between the half links and the 6 micro settings on the clasp you can get a good fit on the bracelet, and it is a quiet bracelet. No rattle as you shake the wrist, +2.

I have a large flat wrist so while smaller wrists get a better benefit of the turned down end links, it doesn't appear to do much for my wrist. No points taken or given.

The flip keeper on a clasp that has the side push buttons is belts and suspenders for me. As some clasps are friction fit with the flip keeper it is muscle memory that makes me want to first rip off my thumbnail to flip open the clasp once i raise the keeper, then I am reminded to squeeze the buttons. -1

The finish of the case and bracelet and clasp are soft, no sharp edges, so +1

With the only touch of color on the dial being the blue Thresher name, it would seem there should be another colored element to play off that somehow someway. 0 points

The fully indexed bezel works very well with this watch design. +1

So overall there are a lot more pluses than minuses. And while it may not have a proper Swiss movement, the 9015 is a tried and true workhorse and has been very well regulated and keeps great time.

A winner in my book, which is why i had to grab one of these. And since you only made 5 with date, well im in a very elite little group!

Cheers!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Rhorya said:


> Ok, im a fanboy of DLC watches to begin with. So +1.
> 
> The stark contrast of white hands on black dial gives me quick time at a glance. And the minute hand actually reaches and touches the minute indicators is another +1.
> 
> ...


It is pretty f***ing cool having a one of five.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> ... And since you only made 5 with date, well im in a very elite little group!


For now...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Other plans pending for this particular EO MN strap, so I have a Strapcode 40mm fitted rubber strap on the way and a spare NTH clasp to use with it...


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

With all the talk of rubber straps lately I decided to put the Odin back on my wrist.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Sometimes you just need four swords. 🤷‍♂️









😁


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Sometimes you just need four swords. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reminds me of this scene from Unforgiven.

"*****, Clive... You got three pistols and only one arm, for Christ's sake."

"I just don't want to get killed for a lack of shooting back."


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I decided we'll be naming the v.2 Tropics after liquors.

Cointreau ("con-trow")










Dark Rum...










Absinthe...










and Blue Curaçao ("cure-ah-sew")...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

A buddy of mine and I spent a lot of time in college trying to invent a cocktail with blue curaçao, called a “one eyed Grover”. 

I never did become a bartender.

Also, Spanish onions didn’t mix well...


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Two years of no booze and now I'm gonna have to strap either absinthe or blue curacao on my wrist... Hmmmmm, never got around to trying absinthe in my past life.


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## OmegaGateway (Sep 4, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Two years of no booze and now I'm gonna have to strap either absinthe or blue curacao on my wrist... Hmmmmm, never got around to trying absinthe in my past life.


I can tell you its nasty tasting.
The shop I tried it at made their own and they also made soft serve absinthe ice cream.
The ice cream was good.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

High contrast!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Devil Ray Friday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

captainmorbid said:


> A buddy of mine and I spent a lot of time in college trying to invent a cocktail with blue curaçao, called a "one eyed Grover".


An enabling roommate of mine and I came up with something we called a Pepperspray. Habanero infused vodka, and either lemonade, or if you prefer fizzy, San Pellegrino Limonata.



TheBearded said:


> Two years of no booze and now I'm gonna have to strap either absinthe or blue curacao on my wrist... Hmmmmm, never got around to trying absinthe in my past life.


5.5+ years sober and I'm getting a Seiko "Negroni" SRPE41 Presage Cocktail Time for Christmas from the mrs-ish. Considering the New Times Horology fiasco, maybe Doc should reconsider the whole liquor name convention thing...?

Used to love me some absinthe, when it became legal, here in the States. I remember (vaguely) grabbing some in the Duty Free shop on the way back from Europe one time. Also liked Chartreuse, which would be a great color for a watch dial. And Jaeger shots were always good. If I have one regret about going completely sober, it's that I never tried Malort...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> And Jaeger shots were always good. If I have one regret about going completely sober, it's that I never tried Malort...


Sounds like we could've been quite good friends... Jaeger always led to absolute craziness. The same way Tequila always led to a fight with someone, some_ones_ or some_thing_. As for Malort.... Thanks for sending me down a rabbit hole. I'll leave with a couple discoveries.

Fan created slogans!


Malort, kick your mouth in the balls!
Malort, when you need to unfriend someone IN PERSON.
Malort, tonight's the night you fight your dad.
Malort, the Champagne of pain.
Malort, turning taste-buds into taste-foes for generations.
Drink Malort, it's easier than telling people you have nothing to live for.
Malort, what soap washes its mouth out with.
Malort, these pants aren't going to sh** themselves.
And a great print "ad"


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Sounds like we could've been quite good friends... Jaeger always led to absolute craziness. The same way Tequila always led to a fight with someone, some_ones_ or some_thing_. As for Malort.... Thanks for sending me down a rabbit hole. I'll leave with a couple discoveries.
> 
> Fan created slogans!
> 
> ...


Funny, I used to be a pretty social drinker and I could really drink a lot and still be good to go. One night, I was talking to a female bartender friend of mine who used to come over to our place and party after the bar closed. I told her I could drink all night at her bar, go home and drink with her and still out drink her. So she loaded my drinks while at the bar. I gotnhime and passed out before she got there. When I woke up and used the bathroom I saw, in my forehead this statement, 'I won'


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

My 2 cents worth on rubber straps: Best rubber that I've found is the rubber used on the Hirsch Accent straps. About the only rubber strap that I'll wear over a quality 3 ring Nylon strap.


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

And that is a wrap for the working year over here in Europe!


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

I should have read the thread before posting! Hopefully I haven't triggered any of my sober horology brothers


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: Glycine, I think the Combat Sub is fine. One of very few divers that's significantly thinner than even the NTH Sub, but it's only good for 20ATM, for whatever that's worth. Until recently the dials were a bit on the dull side, (other than the hyper rare KMZiZ, which is an extremely cool looking tool-diver). The quibbles I have with it are that it's just a bit big for me, and that my ideal Combat Sub is a bunch of parts from different versions.
> 
> Something like a Goldeneye with the dial from the CS Bronze for example I think would be extremely cool.
> 
> View attachment 15010301


I knew that pic looked Familiar! lol, thats my old Golden Eye! nice job on the dial swap! i like your version better.


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Tried the bracelet from my Oris Heritage 65 on the NTH. Not a perfect fit but it works. Tapers from 20mm to 14mm.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

And a watch frozen in time.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

My 3rd NTH









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

In November I owned zero NTHs.

Now its December and I own 2 NTHs










I can also neither confirm or deny that there is a 3rd one in the post!


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

All in on NTHs.... really like the size and classic, timeless designs. 

Swapping Seikos for NTH's .... all in the past few weeks. Purchased a used Nth Black Odin and Blue Scorpene from fellow WUS members last month, and 3 more in the mail ... Barracuda Modern Black, Skip Jack and Amphion Commando from the Nth website. Might add a Polar Barracuda. On the fence about the Scorpene Modern Black.


Selling my Seikos ...Black Turtle, Alpinist, Great White Samurai. On the fence about my SKX007. Likely also to go are my beloved Glycine Combat Subs. The 42mm just feels to big on my teeny 6.75" wrist after wearing the 40mm NTHs.

Not interested in the larger NTHs.... just the subs.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

307 said:


> All in on NTHs.... really like the size and classic, timeless designs.
> 
> Swapping Seikos for NTH's .... all in the past few weeks. Purchased a used Nth Black Odin and Blue Scorpene from fellow WUS members last month, and 3 more in the mail ... Barracuda Modern Black, Skip Jack and Amphion Commando from the Nth website. Might add a Polar Barracuda. On the fence about the Scorpene Modern Black.
> 
> ...


Damn, son.


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## Jwatches826 (Jun 13, 2020)

307 said:


> All in on NTHs.... really like the size and classic, timeless designs.
> 
> Swapping Seikos for NTH's .... all in the past few weeks. Purchased a used Nth Black Odin and Blue Scorpene from fellow WUS members last month, and 3 more in the mail ... Barracuda Modern Black, Skip Jack and Amphion Commando from the Nth website. Might add a Polar Barracuda. On the fence about the Scorpene Modern Black.
> 
> ...


Wow, that sounds like a rapid transition into a new brand for you when you already have a collection of nice watches from an established brand.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Funny thing about this watch "collecting" thing. If you're really into owning all of them, then it really doesn't matter how they fit. I know there are guys on here with hundreds (no typo) of watches. And there are others for whom the visual status matters. No judgement here, do what you like. But when you find a watch (or shoe brand, or blue jean, etc) that fits, then it's difficult to wear anything that really doesn't. I get that.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

307 said:


> All in on NTHs.... really like the size and classic, timeless designs.
> 
> Swapping Seikos for NTH's .... all in the past few weeks. Purchased a used Nth Black Odin and Blue Scorpene from fellow WUS members last month, and 3 more in the mail ... Barracuda Modern Black, Skip Jack and Amphion Commando from the Nth website. Might add a Polar Barracuda. On the fence about the Scorpene Modern Black.
> 
> ...


While I sincerely appreciate your new enthusiasm for the NTH Subs, and I don't want to appear too OCD, nor make you feel embarrassed (you shouldn't), I feel compelled to clarify...I think you mean Barracuda _Vintage_ Black. There is no "Scorpene Modern Black", just Scorpene Black, Blue, or White.

Sorry. Blame it on my need to be precise with language.

Don't let anyone tell you you're crazy for having more than a few of the Subs. My wife has 3. I have 10. I think there are a handful of people here on WUS who've owned even more than that. Looking at you, Yankee Express...

When you find something that works well for you, there's nothing wrong with getting multiples. No one thinks you're crazy if you own 6 or 8 pairs of the same underwear, right?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> While I sincerely appreciate your new enthusiasm for the NTH Subs, and I don't want to appear too OCD, nor make you feel embarrassed (you shouldn't), I feel compelled to clarify...I think you mean Barracuda _Vintage_ Black. There is no "Scorpene Modern Black", just Scorpene Black, Blue, or White.
> 
> Sorry. Blame it on my need to be precise with language.
> 
> ...


He's definitely not alone. Three subs in my watch box, plus a 2K1, and a v2 Azores in the near future.

Speaking of Yankeexpress, where's he been? Seems like he fell off of the earth. Or did he just disappear after the forum changed its format?


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Sorry Chris -

Nacken Modern Black, not the Barracuda.
Scorpene Black is the one I'm on the fence about ... dial seems busy with the bezel from the photos I've seen. This works on the Blue but I'm not sure on the black. I love the handset, though.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ... No one thinks you're crazy if you own 6 or 8 pairs of the same underwear, right?













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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Santa 'Cuda









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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

kpjimmy said:


> Santa 'Cuda
> View attachment 15610153


Man... I was wondering how a blue bezel would look on one of those. Was considering one with a Vanguard insert. Super-sharp. Bet a BoP bracelet would spiffy it up even more. I also like this shot, showing off the revised endlinks. Nice upgrade.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Man... I was wondering how a blue bezel would look on one of those. Was considering one with a Vanguard insert. Super-sharp. Bet a BoP bracelet would spiffy it up even more. I also like this shot, showing off the revised endlinks. Nice upgrade.


Yeah that watch with a 12 hour bezel just might bump another one from the watch box....


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> Santa 'Cuda
> View attachment 15610153
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Gorgeous watch


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Thanks guys. The bezel is old and beat up but adds to the charm.... besides chicks dig scars

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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Speaking of Yankeexpress, where's he been? Seems like he fell off of the earth. Or did he just disappear after the forum changed its format?


He was alive and well when I checked on him a month or two back, just busy with other things.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

307 said:


> All in on NTHs.... really like the size and classic, timeless designs.
> 
> Swapping Seikos for NTH's .... all in the past few weeks. Purchased a used Nth Black Odin and Blue Scorpene from fellow WUS members last month, and 3 more in the mail ... Barracuda Modern Black, Skip Jack and Amphion Commando from the Nth website. Might add a Polar Barracuda. On the fence about the Scorpene Modern Black.
> 
> ...


Wow man! thats pretty awesome! I think i got spoiled by how well the Subs fit, they are so comfy and wear so well that im having a hard time wanting to wear my larger watches any more. However, I do Love the COmbat Sub. I have owned 3 in the past, and would love to get some more. the way the lugs curve down so sharply make them wear extremely well. I have an Amphion Vintage Gilt, and a Skipjack (thanks to @DuckaDiesel ) and I wish i still had my old original Amphion Vintage with the sand dial, i miss that one.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> He's definitely not alone. Three subs in my watch box, plus a 2K1, and a v2 Azores in the near future.
> 
> Speaking of Yankeexpress, where's he been? Seems like he fell off of the earth. Or did he just disappear after the forum changed its format?


Definitely not alone. I have a few of Doc's watches right now:

Amphion Vintage Blue
Santa Fe
Odin Blue
Barracuda Blue
L&H Orthos Blue
L&H Cerberus Silver 
L&H Phantom

I am also considering adding a Santa Cruz and a Tikuna at some point, but thinking about selling the Amphion and Phantom in the mean time.

I also want to see what Doc does next with the 2K1 design. Hopefully it is successful enough to start offering a variety of designs like has been done with the Subs.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

PowerChucker said:


> Wow man! thats pretty awesome! I think i got spoiled by how well the Subs fit, they are so comfy and wear so well that im having a hard time wanting to wear my larger watches any more. However, I do Love the COmbat Sub. I have owned 3 in the past, and would love to get some more. the way the lugs curve down so sharply make them wear extremely well. I have an Amphion Vintage Gilt, and a Skipjack (thanks to @DuckaDiesel ) and I wish i still had my old original Amphion Vintage with the sand dial, i miss that one.


I've got a couple Combat Subs that were my favorite .... until I found NTH. I'm on the fence about selling them, but leaning towards doing so. I just hate to see watches not get worn ... seems unfair to the watch.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Rhorya said:


>


Im so hungry i might hunt you down for that Pizza!! Im in Philly, so not too far lol Plus im wearing my Skipjack now too!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


>


Welcome back to the land of the big PX, Rhory!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


>


Are you back? Or is that an Omani pizza?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Are you back? Or is that an Omani pizza?


Oh im back! Trust me there's no substitute for PA NJ pizza!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Vintage blue on vintage (relatively speaking) bracelet. Perfect.

There is some magic angle (approximated here) that often catches my eye while working. It can be distracting.










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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> Oh im back! Trust me there's no substitute for PA NJ pizza!


A few years ago during a wedding shower weekend in DE I was introduced to Capriotti's. OMG. We got nothin' like that around here.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Rhorya said:


> Oh im back! Trust me there's no substitute for PA NJ pizza!


@docvail and other Philly/Delco members, I just had the best pizza in my life 2 weeks ago! (im 46, so ive eaten a lot of pizza). Its called "Crust Pizza" in Havertown PA(Delco). its mind blowing, Detroit style.. Ive never heard of that style before, but let me tell you I saw *****! wowza it was amazing! Doc youre not far from there, you gotta try it! 
next best is Emillios Pizza in Ridley where I live. amazing stuff!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> @docvail and other Philly/Delco members, I just had the best pizza in my life 2 weeks ago! (im 46, so ive eaten a lot of pizza). Its called "Crust Pizza" in Havertown PA(Delco). its mind blowing, Detroit style.. Ive never heard of that style before, but let me tell you I saw *****! wowza it was amazing! Doc youre not far from there, you gotta try it!
> next best is Emillios Pizza in Ridley where I live. amazing stuff!


It's about 20 minutes away. Maybe we'll check it out when the lockdowns loosen up. It's a little far to go for take-out, right now.

I used to live right around the corner from there, behind the Falcon House. There is (or was) a shop near there called Havertown Pizza, that made mind-blowing hot wings. We kinda sorta know the owner and his wife, who used to work in my step-father's real estate agency.

It's a shame what the lockdowns have done to so many businesses. I just saw that Nai's Cuisine, right behind there, has closed permanently (I assume because of the lockdowns). My wife and I used to love that place, for date night.

If you're ever in or near Wayne, and looking for a slice, I recommend Paola's on Wayne Avenue, in downtown Wayne, or Vic & Dean's, which is a little off the beaten path, but close by. My sons and I have a running debate about which shop makes the better barbecue chicken pizza. I say Paola's, but they say Vic & Dean's.

New Wayne Pizza isn't bad, either, if you're just looking for a basic slice of pie. The owner's father gave me my first real job when I was a teen, working for him at the Thunderbird, in Broomall (and repeatedly voted best Cheesesteak in Delco).


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> It's about 20 minutes away. Maybe we'll check it out when the lockdowns loosen up. It's a little far to go for take-out, right now.
> 
> I used to live right around the corner from there, behind the Falcon House. There is (or was) a shop near there called Havertown Pizza, that made mind-blowing hot wings. We kinda sorta know the owner and his wife, who used to work in my step-father's real estate agency.
> 
> ...


Wow, I know Falcon House, I grew up in Havertown for 30 years! Havertown pizza was a staple, same with Eagle Pizza on Haverford rd. by the high speed line.
Ive had Wayne pizza when i was a kid, our church was in Wayne so we were there all the time. My kids and wife Love thunderbird Pizza, we ususally go to the Springfield location. The original you worked at is right next to my old favorite Car Speed shop, K&G Speed! Ahh good times. We have to cath up and share a pizza some day! 
oh yeah I remember Nai's Cuisine, I lived right by there on Campbell Ave when i lived in H-Town.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> It's about 20 minutes away..............It's a little far to go for take-out, right now.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Everything is 20 minutes away in TX lol

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> Everything is 20 minutes away in TX lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I'm in Dallas, well, about 10-15min north. We're commonly referred to as the D/FW Metroplex... Dallas/Fort Worth. Fort Worth is on average, 40min west of Dallas on highways with speed limits of between 65-75mph.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

here is a pic of my 3-pack. I no longer have the OG Amphion Vintage at the top, just the 2 at the bottom are still with me. That sand dial was so sexy!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> I'm in Dallas, well, about 10-15min north. We're commonly referred to as the D/FW Metroplex... Dallas/Fort Worth. Fort Worth is on average, 40min west of Dallas on highways with speed limits of between 65-75mph.


I'm on San Antonio so 20mins is san ongoing joke between my wife and I lol

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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Atlanta is an hour's drive from Atlanta


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Atlanta is an hour's drive from Atlanta


I can attest to the truthfulness in this post.

NOT FUN FACT - yesterday I went out to run some errands. I had to go five places, but had to come to a complete stop while en route four times, due to road work having traffic in both directions confined to a single lane. What should have been 90 minutes of running around turned into almost 3 hours.

I'm not saying PA roads don't need the work. They absolutely do. They're the worst. About a month ago, my son got a flat after bottoming out in a pothole. I hit the same hole on my way to help him change the tire. When we took his car in to the shop, the lady running it told me we were the fourth or fifth people to come in after hitting that same damned pothole - she knew _EXACTLY_ where it was. I just drove by that spot yesterday, and it's still freaking there.

But why didn't PennDOT do the repairs when we were locked down for 8 months, when hardly anyone was out on the road, and the weather was warm? Am I crazy, or would that not have made more sense than waiting until the lockdowns ended, and winter started? Isn't it easier to dig up the asphalt and the dirt under it when it isn't covered in snow, and frozen solid? Doesn't that stuff get softer in the heat?

Thinking about my state government reminds me of that line from Dodgeball, about a bunch of mentally-challenged persons trying to fornicate with a door knob.

EDIT - I forgot my visual aid for this post...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Atlanta: 354.2 square km

Edmonton: 684 square km and less than 1 good pizza joints... 


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Idaho, population 1.75 million. 22 people per square mile. Our town, Sandpoint, 7000 full time residents. Four microbreweries, and a winery. I love that place. 

Metro Atlanta, population 6 million. 3,858 people per square mile. I tolerate it.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Idaho, population 1.75 million. 22 people per square mile. Our town, Sandpoint, 7000 full time residents. Four microbreweries, and a winery. I love that place.
> 
> Metro Atlanta, population 6 million. 3,858 people per square mile. I tolerate it.


Alberta 661 848 square km, population 4.371 million, 6.4 people per square km, less good pizza joints than Wayne Mich...

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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

captainmorbid said:


> Atlanta: 354.2 square km
> 
> Edmonton: 684 square km and less than 1 good pizza joints...
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Bro, we will have to send you some awesome PA/Philly pizza!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Maine: 
Population, 1.3 million
Population density, 41/sq mi
Population density, blackfly, 36,000,000,000/sq mi.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> Bro, we will have to send you some awesome PA/Philly pizza!


You're in my will.

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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

captainmorbid said:


> You're in my will.
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


"NTH, creating family bonds across borders" 
Would that fit on the dial of the next Amphion?

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Bro, we will have to send you some awesome PA/Philly pizza!


And a square KM to square Mi "translate units to 'Murican" communication guide.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> "NTH, creating family bonds across borders"
> Would that fit on the dial of the next Amphion?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Still less text than on most Rolex / Tudor dials.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Still less text than on most Rolex / Tudor dials.


Lol the NTH 4-liner

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't know how much I'll be online between now and the end of the week, so figured I'd say it now - Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year. 

Obviously, 2020 has been a pretty craptastic year all around. I for one will be happy to see it end (I think, depending on what 2021 brings). 

I really don't know what else to say other than to wish you all well, and apologize that I can't come up with anything more uplifting as the year winds to a close. Here's hoping 2021 is either amazing, or if not, we have some sort of world-killing event that puts an end to the misery sooner rather than later.

I'm really hoping for an enormous meteor, rather than something stupid, like another plague.

Meanwhile, I'll be adding extra rum to the egg nog. I suggest you all consider doing something similar to help take the edge off.

Yours grudgingly,
Chris


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

And a surly happy new year! 


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Merry Christmas, All Y'all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Semi-unrelated to anything...

I like to go into my local Tourneau every so often, like maybe twice a year, to talk shop with the salespeople there, see how many Rolexes or Tudors are available, remind myself I have no need or desire for expensive watches, and see if I find any inspiration.

Because it's a slow time of year, and I was out of the house and near the mall anyway, I went in today. Really out of character for me. I hate the mall already, and going at Christmas time is something you'd lose money betting on me ever doing, the probability is so remote.

Anyhoo, some interesting things (at least for me, and for John Keil, when I called to tell him, and so maybe for some of you)...

First, the door was locked. They weren't closed, and I could see one of the peeps inside, doing something on an iPad. But the store was otherwise empty, from what I could see.

The door had signs with the usual covid-related rigmarole, including this little gem:










I thought, "you gotta be $hltting me. During a global economic crisis, you're making people set an appointment to look at a watch, just days before CHRISTMAS???"

I was going to leave after taking that pic, but as I was taking it, one of the salespeople opened the door. No explanation for why it was locked. He locked it again after letting me and another couple in. Maybe it's because they no longer have a security guard posted there, as they once did, pre-covid.

Okay, so...Rolex....

The full-length display case was about as almost-empty as it was the last time I visited, and again, most of what was there were the "Oh, we also make this" SKUs nobody buys, the ladies bedazzledjust, and the like. But surprisingly, they had a small assortment of two-tone Submariners at one end. I thought those were the new hot girls at the prom, no?

Sashaying my way over to the Tudor display, I was likewise surprised to see how full those cases were, and how much variety was there. It appeared to me that they had _ALL_ the Black Bays, including the BB58 in both black AND blue, and the limited edition P01, and the new GMT's, and the carbon-fiber case model...basically all the stuff I thought you couldn't get anywhere.

I thought you had to pledge your left cojone just to get on the wait list for a BB58. But apparently not. The sales guy told me they just got 4 of them in, 2 in each color, and had no waiting list at all. I could walk out with one today, if I wanted.

I didn't have the heart to make the sales guy admit sales have been slower than an inbred turtle recently. I just asked to see the BB58's and the P01, and set my Odin (on fitted rubber strap) down on the counter to try one of the '58's on.

That's always my favorite part of the Tourneau visit...

"Nice piece."

"Thank you. Feel free to take a closer look."

"Wow, it seems really well-made. What brand is this?"

"NTH. It's a small, boutique brand. Tell me what you think it costs."

"Four?"

"Four what?"

"Thousand."

*Just for context, the Tudor I was trying on was $3500.*

"We sold that model for $650 last year."

"You sell these?"

"My company makes them."

"Really? You make these?"

"That's actually just a prototype of our bread-and-butter model. We make 40 different versions of that. They're $700 now, on a 3-link oyster bracelet with double locking clasp, or optional beads-of-rice. [Noticing the standard clasp on the BB58's, with just 3 micro-adjustments] I thought Tudor used an expansion clasp on their divers?"

"I'm not sure. If so, they must have stopped using them. It's just the micro-adjustment clasp now."

"Shame. I heard good things about that clasp."

"You really sell these for $700?"

"All day."

"Is it quartz?"

"Japanese automatic."

[Leaning in, speaking softly] "Got a business card?"


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Still less text than on most Rolex / Tudor dials.


Five digit subs are awesome. Full stop.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

hwa said:


> Five digit subs are awesome. Full stop.


Mmmm subs...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Tanker G1 said:


> Mmmm subs...
> 
> View attachment 15614147


Jersey Mike's #2, done Mikes Way. On white


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Jersey Mike's #2, done Mikes Way. On white












I'll raise you Jimmy Johns Gargantuan, just add bacon and Dijon.;-)


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I wish I could find a picture to do it justice.... But if you're ever around D/FW and want a sub, check out Great Outdoors. _Small_ chain. Maybe 6 locations. They aren't pulling pre sliced meats out and tossing it in a roll for ya, you get to watch em slice it.

Get an Outdoorsman with the works.

You'll thank me.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

JLittle said:


> View attachment 15614166
> 
> 
> I'll raise you Jimmy Johns Gargantuan, just add bacon and Dijon.;-)


Heart attack level sandwich there...for when you want to eat ALL the animals.


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## Gatto (Jul 29, 2020)

docvail said:


> Semi-unrelated to anything...
> 
> [Leaning in, speaking softly] "Got a business card?"


Great story, thanks for sharing Doc! Entertaining and yet not surprising. And I mean that in a good way.

I can't help but ask, what strap did you have your Odin on?


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Tanker G1 said:


> Heart attack level sandwich there...for when you want to eat ALL the animals.


A cow, a chicken and a pig walked into a bar....and we ate them!


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> Semi-unrelated to anything...
> 
> I like to go into my local Tourneau every so often, like maybe twice a year, to talk shop with the salespeople there, see how many Rolexes or Tudors are available, remind myself I have no need or desire for expensive watches, and see if I find any inspiration.
> 
> ...


The Omega Boutique here in Houston is also appointment only now. Locked door, too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gatto said:


> Great story, thanks for sharing Doc! Entertaining and yet not surprising. And I mean that in a good way.
> 
> I can't help but ask, what strap did you have your Odin on?


Sample strap from a potential vendor.

Just got the competing samples yesterday. Haven't gotten around to mounting them on any watches yet. Might do that mañana.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## Gatto (Jul 29, 2020)

docvail said:


> Sample strap from a potential vendor.
> 
> Just got the competing samples yesterday. Haven't gotten around to mounting them on any watches yet. Might do that mañana.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


Ah, good to know. I couldn't help but think "Doc has good taste, I'm sure I'd like it as well" since I'm in the market for one.

I did double check your website before I asked, just to be sure. I'll keep an eye out (cough cough) for an official NTH fitted rubber strap option in the future.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In case the point was too subtle...

It wasn't that long ago that you couldn't get a BB58 or one of the hot new Submariner models for love or money. Today I could have had my pick of both BB58 colors, including the recently released (and more recently selling for more than retail) blue, plus a handful of hot new Submariner models.

I think that's telling. Surely covid has hurt the economy, and thus demand, but we've been hearing (and some of us, talking) about "artificial shortages" with those models for more than a year. I've been saying the shortages were more likely the result of the inability to perfectly predict future demand than someone's strategy. A lot of people disagreed with me.

Welp, if the shortages were "artificial", what's covid got to do with it? Shouldn't we still be hearing about long waiting lists, and seeing secondary market prices higher than retail? 

Seems like supply suddenly eclipsed demand. Nothing artificial about the complete lack of people on a waiting list.




We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

hwa said:


> Five digit subs are awesome. Full stop.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No argument here. I could be a one watch guy with that.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Hi Chris - 

Please excuse me if you've answered this somewhere else or previously ... I searched WUS and your website.... 

Any plans to offer/re-issue Amphions? 

I recently purchased a Amphion Commando from your website (still incoming), but am also interested in the Amphion Modern, and perhaps Gilt.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

307 said:


> Hi Chris -
> 
> Please excuse me if you've answered this somewhere else or previously ... I searched WUS and your website....
> 
> ...


No excuse needed. I re-answer questions all the time.

I honestly don't know if we'll make more Amphions. The simple fact is they don't sell as quickly as the Barracudas and Nackens. We sold 300 Barracuda Vintage Blacks in the time it took to sell 100 Amphion Vintage Gilts.

That said, I know we have some spare dials, along with most or all of the other parts we need to assemble a complete watch. Not enough to assemble 25-50, just 1-2 per dial variation, but I'm not sure which versions we have and which we don't.

I _think_ we might have 1-2 Amphion Modern or Vintage Black dials. I'm almost certain we've got 1-2 Dark Gilt dials (applied indices, not gilt-relief).

Conceivably, if we get bored, we might whip up a handful of pieces using those parts, which we probably don't need as spares any more. We just received the next Subs' release, and don't have anything else coming in until the v.2 Tropics arrive in March/April.

As an example, this month, we assembled this, a full DLC Santa Fe, an homage to the Heuer night-diver (TAG Heuer Professional Night-Dive Reference 980.031) that Timothy Dalton wore in the Living Daylights.

Apparently vintage examples are super-rare, and crazy-priced, considering their quartz movements, and bare-bones features. The only listing I could find was from eBay, where a beat-to-hell one sold for $2k back in October.

*Sorry everyone, please don't ask to buy it, as it's already sold - this was a one-off, built-to-order job, for which we charged $850 plus shipping.*


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

307 said:


> Hi Chris -
> 
> Please excuse me if you've answered this somewhere else or previously ... I searched WUS and your website....
> 
> ...


I would argue that one of the best Amphions is the Kiger/NTH. They were still available new as of about a month ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> I would argue that one of the best Amphions is the Kiger/NTH. They were still available new as of about a month ago.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Find yours here - KIGER Milsub


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Got it. Thanks!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> No excuse needed. I re-answer questions all the time.
> 
> I honestly don't know if we'll make more Amphions. The simple fact is they don't sell as quickly as the Barracudas and Nackens. We sold 300 Barracuda Vintage Blacks in the time it took to sell 100 Amphion Vintage Gilts.
> 
> ...


Oh that custom is amazingly cool. Which lucky bastard got that?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Oh that custom is amazingly cool. Which lucky bastard got that?


He's a member here, but hasn't been active in quite a while, I think - @sculldogg86 . We conversed via FB messenger.

If nothing else, the experience cemented for me why the business in its current form is not compatible with doing one-off customs to order as something we'd offer on-demand, to everyone / anyone.

This one was the result of a lot of serendipity. We happened to be in a low-activity period when the conversation started, otherwise, this would have gone a whole different way...

HIM: "Will you ever make more Santa Fes? If so, when? And also, will you make any DLC?"​​ME: "Doubtful, don't know, and maybe we would, if we did, but I doubt we will."​​HIM: "Fair enough. I guess I'll have to buy a DLC Scorpene, hunt down a used Santa Fe, and swap their innards."​​ME: "Don't do that. For one, we only made 20 Santa Fes, back in 2017. You're unlikely to find one for sale now. But if you did, swapping the cases would void the warranty. You'll end up over-paying for two watches, one of which will be impossible to sell. I know we have spare DLC cases and bracelets, and the movements and inserts we'd need to assemble one. I'm 95% sure we have the dials and handsets, but let me confirm with Dan, and assuming we do, I'll get back to you with a price."​
If we didn't already have the parts in Dan's shop, or if we'd been busy with other things, that convo would have gone nowhere. It didn't hurt that I kind of wanted to see it made, just because of the tie-in to James Bond, and because if we'd been making DLC cases as an option when we made the Santa Fe, making a DLC version would have been obvious.

It was either late last year or earlier this year when I was running my mouth about wanting to do custom, made-to-order NTH Subs. I was a bit out in front of my skis with that idea. There are just too many challenges with it to be feasible for us at this time. I think this instance is likely to be both the first and last.

That said, I think once we get through this next release, Dan and I might go through our spare parts stores, consider what parts we might not need as spares any more, assemble some watches using those parts, and sell them off the website. I expect that they'll all be dial-handset-bezel combos we've done before, but conceivably, MAYBE we'll mix those up a bit, if we don't have all the parts we need, or if we just like how something looks.

PLEASE, EVERYONE - do NOT start emailing or messaging me with special, one-off requests to do this or that model or one-off combo, based on what you always wanted or thought would be awesome. You don't know what parts we have or don't have in our spares. I honestly don't even know. So we don't even know what it's POSSIBLE for us to make. And since the parts aren't with me, they're with Dan, I'm not going to be in a position to tell you if we have the parts to assemble that one model or custom one-off you've been longing for us to make.

Just let us do our thing, the way we do it. That thing does not require anyone emailing us special requests.


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Happy Holidays Yo!!!









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

My Fam to yours!!









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Word









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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> He's a member here, but hasn't been active in quite a while, I think - @sculldogg86 . We conversed via FB messenger.
> 
> If nothing else, the experience cemented for me why the business in its current form is not compatible with doing one-off customs to order as something we'd offer on-demand, to everyone / anyone.
> 
> ...












Old news.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So, I finally got the other strap sample I was waiting on, earlier this week, and finally got around to trying it on one of the Subs.

We have a winner.

This strap required a bit of finagling and manual dexterity to get onto the case, but once on, it's a perfect fit, like it was made for that watch specifically. The shape of the strap perfectly matches the shape of the lugs.

It's basically this, except it'll be higher quality, and it will cost much less -

Amazon.com: Vulcanized Rubber Watch strap with 316L brushed stainless steel buckle | Watch Strap | Compatible with Rolex Sport models | 20mm Watch Band | Customize your watch (Classic Black): Clothing

We'll definitely have black, and probably blue, if we can get the shade of blue we want. The blue they've been using is a little too purple.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> So, I finally got the other strap sample I was waiting on, earlier this week, and finally got around to trying it on one of the Subs.
> 
> We have a winner.
> 
> ...


And orange. Don't leave out orange................


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> And orange. Don't leave out orange................


Extremely doubtful I'll make orange. The MOQ is 300 pieces, per strap style / color / size.

Even when I was using a different vendor, with only a 30-piece MOQ per strap style, it wasn't easy to sell through the off-beat colors. I've still got some olive green and purple straps left, from when we were selling mod dials for the Lew & Huey Orthos, starting back in early-mid 2015.

I'm not making that mistake again, times 10, especially considering how few NTH Subs we've made with any orange on the dial. So far, it's only been 20 Zwaardvis, and 50 of the Barracuda Polar White.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Extremely doubtful I'll make orange. The MOQ is 300 pieces, per strap style / color / size.
> 
> Even when I was using a different vendor, with only a 30-piece MOQ per strap style, it wasn't easy to sell through the off-beat colors. I've still got some olive green and purple straps left, from when we were selling mod dials for the Lew & Huey Orthos, starting back in early-mid 2015.
> 
> I'm not making that mistake again, times 10, especially considering how few NTH Subs we've made with any orange on the dial. So far, it's only been 20 Zwaardvis, and 50 of the Barracuda Polar White.












Oh well.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15616288
> 
> 
> Oh well.
> ...


Sorry (about the straps) and thanks.

I can empathize, truly. I would love to order more varieties, if I could. I've been saying for a while that the high MOQ's with most vendors in this industry is one of the things that slows down its growth, and thus it's a challenge we need to find a way to overcome.

Don't even get me started on all the delays, and problems in communication.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Sorry (about the straps) and thanks.
> 
> I can empathize, truly. I would love to order more varieties, if I could. I've been saying for a while that the high MOQ's with most vendors in this industry is one of the things that slows down its growth, and thus it's a challenge we need to find a way to overcome.
> 
> Don't even get me started on all the delays, and problems in communication.


No worries at all.

I understand you can't make everyone happy. Its just not feasible. You do what keeps the business alive, thriving, and profitable. Keep it up, and here's to hoping '21 is better than the year than the dumpster fire this year was.


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## Jwatches826 (Jun 13, 2020)

Would it be feasible to offer both a short and long length on the rubber straps?


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Extremely doubtful I'll make orange. The MOQ is 300 pieces ....
> I'm not making that mistake again, times 10, especially considering how few NTH Subs we've made with any orange on the dial. So far, it's only been 20 Zwaardvis, and 50 of the Barracuda Polar White.


So my bad boy is one of only 20 in the whole wide world?

Merry Christmas to all!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jwatches826 said:


> Would it be feasible to offer both a short and long length on the rubber straps?


Nope.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> So, I finally got the other strap sample I was waiting on, earlier this week, and finally got around to trying it on one of the Subs.
> 
> We have a winner.
> 
> ...


I just bought this one from Amazon. Black only, but only $14.99.









Amazon.com: 20mm/21mm Rubber Watchband Strap w/Tang Buckle Fit for Rolex GMT Yatch Master 16622 Watches : Everything Else


Amazon.com: 20mm/21mm Rubber Watchband Strap w/Tang Buckle Fit for Rolex GMT Yatch Master 16622 Watches : Everything Else



www.amazon.com


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> No excuse needed. I re-answer questions all the time.
> 
> I honestly don't know if we'll make more Amphions. The simple fact is they don't sell as quickly as the Barracudas and Nackens. We sold 300 Barracuda Vintage Blacks in the time it took to sell 100 Amphion Vintage Gilts.
> 
> ...


I prefer my custom NTH Subs personally.

NTH Santa Fe with skeleton snowflake hands, Kiger bezel and an aftermarket Jubilee.

NTH Barracuda with gilt sword hands, blue Amphion bezel and an aftermarket Oyster with glide lock clasp.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wrencher13 (Oct 11, 2019)

Hey Chris. Will you be doing a run of dated Odin.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> I just bought this one from Amazon. Black only, but only $14.99.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's silicone.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wrencher13 said:


> Hey Chris. Will you be doing a run of dated Odin.


No time soon.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wrencher13 said:


> Hey Chris. Will you be doing a run of dated Odin.


PS - the Odin's were available with or without a date. We may assemble more of the blue at some point, but we already made 100 of the black, and I doubt we'll make more.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> That's silicone.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


Not to argue, but Amazon says rubber. We'll see....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Not to argue, but Amazon says rubber. We'll see....


I'm sure it does. The difference in price between silicone, low grade rubber, and high grade rubber is stark.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> I just bought this one from Amazon. Black only, but only $14.99.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> That's silicone.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...





MikeyT said:


> Not to argue, but Amazon says rubber. We'll see....





docvail said:


> I'm sure it does. The difference in price between silicone, low grade rubber, and high grade rubber is stark.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


Sorry my earlier response didn't include any supporting details. I wasn't in my office, where I had some numbers from strap suppliers.

As always, everyone can believe whatever they want. But I'd be leery of believing what I read in an Amazon ad, since it was written by the sellers, and I'd take the seller's info into consideration...

When I looked into making the tropic straps for the v.1 Tropics, I was given pricing for that strap, made of four materials options - Viton, EPDM (Ethylene Propylene Diene Monomer), NBR (nitrile butadiene rubber), and silicone.

The Viton was the most expensive option, by a lot. The EPDM was 26% of the Viton's cost, the NBR, 24%, and the silicone, 15%.

Just for more context, Otto Frei sells the same strap, but made of silicone, for $8.70 - Swiss Tropic Style Silicone Rubber Strap.

Most tropic straps, made of true rubber, not silicone, seem to sell for $30-$40 (we sold ours for $30), but sometimes more, a lot more, depending on the seller (Synchron sells theirs for $79). Some of the price difference is materials, some design, and some whatever the seller thinks they can get.

Now, I'm not the rubber expert. But it occurs to me that some of the difference in cost might come not just from the cost of the material, but the cost of forming the strap from it, just as the cost of using 316L stainless to make a case is different than the cost of using titanium or bronze, or some other steel alloy, because of the difference in tooling required. Tropic rubber straps are complex designs, as far as straps go, with a raised edge treatment, and that cross-hatched surface pattern. That might have exaggerated the cost difference in materials.

On top of the cost of making the strap, the seller (at least one outside China) would have to pay to ship the straps to their location, and pay customs duties, which are a function of the value of the imported goods. The more the straps cost to make, the higher the import duties.

Looking at some of the listings on Amazon, for the "identical" strap, I see the prices range from $12-$20 to ~$100.

My *opinion* is that the ones close to $100 are over-priced, even if they're made from Viton (and I'm not sure they are), and that the ones selling for $12-$20 are more likely to be silicone, or at best, NBR, rather than EPDM or Viton.

I'm planning to make our straps from Viton, because the price I've been given is right, and because it's the most durable of the available rubber compounds, while also very pliable. I think it's the best choice here.

Those $12-$20 straps may in fact be good enough for many folks, and many folks may see them as good value for the money. But folks may want to be wary - that $15 strap may ship from "Amazon", but the seller is in China. I wouldn't bank on their listing being 100% accurate.



















Do I know for certain that $15 strap is silicone? No, I don't, not for certain. But I read some of the negative reviews, and the comments in them lead me to believe it is most likely silicone. I am 100% certain they're not Viton.

"Very poor quality, I was trying to install it and the strap just snap. Horrible."

"Very cheap plastic and not as advertised."

"Unfortunately, I had to return because the rubber of this strap was bit stiff and rough to wear. It did not conform to my wrist comfortably, so I wasn't happy with this rubber strap."

Caveat emptor...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> So my bad boy is one of only 20 in the whole wide world?
> 
> Merry Christmas to all!
> View attachment 15616557
> ...


One of only 10, if you want to divide date vs. no-date.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> One of only 10, if you want to divide date vs. no-date.


I certainly do. That's pretty cool. Great watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> One of only 10, if you want to divide date vs. no-date.


So now I'm confused (which is not at all unusual): how does this fit in with what you were saying about high MOQs limiting the range of options you (and others) can offer?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> So now I'm confused (which is not at all unusual): how does this fit in with what you were saying about high MOQs limiting the range of options you (and others) can offer?


It doesn't fit in.

Prior to May 2018, I was periodically asking my vendor to make stuff in oddball numbers, with no regard for MOQs. And as a result, we were having a lot of problems with delays.

When I went to see our vendors in May of 2018, one of the topics discussed was my constant requests to make model versions in oddball numbers, often less than our MOQs, and the problems that caused.

One of the resolutions which came from that visit was that I wouldn't ask them to do that anymore. I was fine with it, because I'd already realized how much energy and time we'd been wasting working on stuff that would only be made in ultra small numbers.

All the stuff we made in stupid-low numbers was ordered prior to that trip.

Today, I don't want to know about anything I can't make and sell in quantities of 50 pieces or more, since that's my MOQ for dial variations. It's not worth me even thinking about it.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

Too many actual facts on this thread recently....we need some silicone pics. And yes, I would buy a rubber strap as long as it can fit my beefy 8.5" wrist. One reason I buy the Barton straps is that they come in XL sizes.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Last year I was in the same Tourneau that Doc was in and my Skipjack was quite a hit with the salesman. Dude was wearing watches on both arms so I think he _really _likes watches and wasn't just humoring me  
I passed by the store Christmas eve morning and they didn't have one customer in there. Omega had one. The (tiny) new combo Tag/Breitling boutique a few doors down from that wasn't even open. It was 11:30. They weren't even trying. Seems better to be in the business of selling sub 1k watches right now....


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

RickHoliday said:


> Too many actual facts on this thread recently....we need some silicone.
> 
> View attachment 15619185


I haven't been a fan of that model, too much steel when it's on the bracelet. But THAT really works well.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Stopped by an AD Christmas Eve while I was out and about, doing some last minute shopping.

Checked out the apparently new release Breitling Superocean, with applied arabic indexes, and the Oris 65 divers in various models.

Meh. I was wearing my NTH Scorpéne Commando, and simply from a design standpoint, neither of them really did enough for me that I'd consider them instead of my NTH, and considering prices... well, I just don't need a dive-style watch at that price level.

Don't get me wrong - super-nice watches, and I can see how many would find even retail price value in them - just that for what they are, I wouldn't pay more than NTH pricing for this style of watch.

But more to the point, guy at the Oris counter asked about my watch and I don't know if he was just schmoozing me up with sales talk or what, but appeared to recognize the brand and that it's a microbrand. Which is pretty cool, if NTH is actually making some kind of impact with AD sales-guys.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Got a couple watches for Christmas. Nice, cheap ones, for those times when I shouldn't wear anything to attract muggers (there are honestly times like that in my life, long story).

So, had a hard look at the watch box, to pick a couple to cull from the herd. Two are going. All of the NTH are staying. No surprise there...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RickHoliday said:


> Too many actual facts on this thread recently....we need some silicone pics. And yes, I would buy a rubber strap as long as it can fit my beefy 8.5" wrist. One reason I buy the Barton straps is that they come in XL sizes.
> 
> View attachment 15619185


That strap looks sweet with that watch!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of the v.1 Tropics, there are 2 for sale on eBay, from a seller in Canada, for what seem like good prices, given their condition.

Azores Vanilla with date - NTH Azores Watch - Swiss made movement - Compressor style automatic dive watch | eBay

Antilles White, no date - NTH Antilles Swiss automatic dive watch with full white lume dial steel case | eBay


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Canadian post and Customs will sure do their best to screw up or lose them in the process.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Who would have thought the Nth Nacken Modern Black would be so divisive ...

I posted a photo of six black divers, including two NTHs (I consider the Sinn 104 a diver ...) and asked for most and least favorite of the bunch. Seems members either love or hate (mostly hate) the Nacken over the snowflake hands.









6 Black Divers on Natos ... Which is your favorite...


Which is your favorite? Least favorite? From Left to Right: Glycine Combat Sub GL087 Sinn 104 Nth Nacken Modern Black Seiko SKX007 Scurfa Diver 1 Nth Odin Another View ... Top Row, L-R: Nth Nacken, Seiko SKX, Nth Odin. Bottom Row, L-R: Combat Sub, Scurfa Diver 1, Sinn 104 Closeups Below:




www.watchuseek.com





Prior to buying the Nacken, I too wasn't sold on the snowflake hands, but the simple black and white color scheme makes this watch a total strap master, and it's incredibly legible.


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## Jowls (May 18, 2018)

307 said:


> I posted a photo of six black divers, including two NTHs (I consider the Sinn 104 a diver ...) and asked for most and least favorite of the bunch. Seems members either love or hate (mostly hate) the Nacken over the snowflake hands.


I consider those who dislike snowflake hands as similar to those who have no taste for earthy, old-world wines. On the one hand I can see how it might be an acquired taste; on the other I feel bad for those unable to appreciate refinement, sophistication, and beauty. 😉


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

WIS are funny about stuff like that, almost as if it's a contest of sorts, like the popularity contest in "Mean Girls". Thankfully, you can get an NTH with almost any style of hand you prefer. Or you can swap them But don't tell anybody.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> No excuse needed. I re-answer questions all the time.
> 
> I honestly don't know if we'll make more Amphions. The simple fact is they don't sell as quickly as the Barracudas and Nackens. We sold 300 Barracuda Vintage Blacks in the time it took to sell 100 Amphion Vintage Gilts.


Wow, im very surprised to hear the Amphion wasnt among the more popular versions. I knew the Cuda, and Naken were Hot, but thought the Amphion was near the top with them.
The Amphion has always been my favorite! (2 of my 3 NTH are Amphions). its just a clean beautiful take on the 5517, and I love it! Thanks for making the Amphions so cool Chris!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15621006


Im so intrigued by the Tikuna! such a cool dial and hand design! I really want one.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> Im so intrigued by the Tikuna! such a cool dial and hand design! I really want one.


It's a fun watch for sure. I felt it needed more red though, so when Doc started offering bezel inserts I picked up one for a Barracuda. More red, not a busy as the original.

Edit: Its also the watch that started this love affair that's developed into 4 NTHs, with a for sure 5th coming next year.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> It's a fun watch for sure. I felt it needed more red though, so when Doc started offering bezel inserts I picked up one for a Barracuda. More red, not a busy as the original.
> 
> Edit: Its also the watch that started this love affair that's developed into 4 NTHs, with a for sure 5th coming next year.


The Red triangle really works well for the Tikuna!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

I put some red color on my Skipjack today too! Wine red heavy Zulu from Maratac.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

The red triangle really makes the Tikuna's killer looks even more killer. Agreed that the less busy insert helps w/ the overall design.

The ONLY addition I'd make is a red tip on the seconds hand.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15621006


Wow, that looks incredible!! Just out of curiosity how difficult was the bezel swap?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Bloom said:


> Wow, that looks incredible!! Just out of curiosity how difficult was the bezel swap?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Incredibly simple if you have the proper tools at your disposal and can follow directions. Took all of 5 minutes?

Unscrew crown to let heat vent, blast old insert with a heat gun, remove with xacto knife, clean old adhesive from bezel, remove paper backing from new insert adhesive, set in place and press.

I did it to my Nazario Sauro too, that's got an Azzurro bezel insert on it to match the blue handset.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

TheBearded said:


> Incredibly simple if you have the proper tools at your disposal and can follow directions. Took all of 5 minutes?
> 
> Unscrew crown to let heat vent, blast old insert with a heat gun, remove with xacto knife, clean old adhesive from bezel, remove paper backing from new insert adhesive, set in place and press.


Nice. Thanks for the info. I really like the way the Tikuna looks with this insert.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Topspin917 (Mar 17, 2012)

I sold my first gen Amphion Modern a few years ago and didn't have another NTH until I acquired a Tikuna. I had forgotten how comfortably the Subs wear because of the specs. The Tikuna hands and dial design give it a very distinctive look that I really like.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Im so intrigued by the Tikuna! such a cool dial and hand design! I really want one.


Since you brought it up...

There are now 7 Tikuna no-dates left in the world, almost certain to be the last we ever make. 5 of those are at Watch Gauge. 2 are at Serious.

There are only 2 with-dates left, both at Serious (who don't charge VAT for customers outside the EU, but do ship free, worldwide, FYI).

And as long as I'm doing this...

Serious also has the last 2 Vanguards we're likely to make any time soon, if ever. 1 with date, 1 no-date.

Serious still has 2 Scorpène Nomad no-dates. The remaining 4 no-dates are at IntoWatch in S.Korea, where you will also find the last of the with-dates. As with the other models mentioned above, these are likely to be the last Nomads you'll ever see.

There are 3 Bahias left in the world, all at IntoWatch in S.Korea. 1 no-date, 2 with date. No idea when we'll make more Bahias, if ever.

The last Näcken Vintage Black no-date is at Watch Gauge. The last with-date is at Five:45 in New Zealand. If you email them, they'll remove the local GST from the price for you. We probably won't see more of the Vintage Black until 2022.

There are 3 Oberon II no-dates. One at Watch Gauge, 2 at Serious Watches.

There are 2 Oberon II with-dates, both at Serious. Don't know when or if we'll make more of the Oberon II.

There are 2 Devil Ray Blue, no-dates left. 1 at Serious, 1 at Five:45.

There are also 2 DevilRay Blue, with-dates, both at Serious. We might make more DevilRays at some point, but I don't know when.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FWIW - I've been wearing a Swiftsure on one of the fitted rubber strap samples. I wasn't sure I liked the bigger case when I tried one on with the bracelet. On the rubber strap, it practically disappears, and I forget I'm even wearing it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

307 said:


> Who would have thought the Nth Nacken Modern Black would be so divisive ...
> 
> I posted a photo of six black divers, including two NTHs (I consider the Sinn 104 a diver ...) and asked for most and least favorite of the bunch. Seems members either love or hate (mostly hate) the Nacken over the snowflake hands.
> 
> ...


I wonder how much of the sentiment is driven by homage hate. Not that I really care. It just seems like something that could easily be a factor.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> There are now 7 Tikuna no-dates left in the world, almost certain to be the last we ever make.


And they say Rolex creates artificial shortages ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> And they say Rolex creates artificial shortages ...


I'm sure you're joking.

We had two releases of them, the most recent one this past March. No wait lists, no profiteering on the secondary market, no mad-dash feeding frenzies to order one within a 3 second window.

Just nice, neat, calm, customer-pleasing shopping experiences, courtesy of NTH and our retail partners.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

^Gurthang54 said:


> The red triangle really makes the Tikuna's killer looks even more killer. Agreed that the less busy insert helps w/ the overall design.
> 
> The ONLY addition I'd make is a red tip on the seconds hand.


Okay, damn you all. Always fancied the Tikuna, but.... that 40mm... if only 42+... but..... looking to move some 40mm watches on and my Santa Cruz is a winner. So thinking I will pull the trigger and now that bezel change has got me thinking. Agreed, the Tikuna bezel does look a bit busy for my liking, however I do prefer some markings to the 15min mark. So.... looking through the available bezels, I'm trying to match the bezel marking colours with the dial colours as closely as possilbe. From Docs site, the Kiger/Oberon bezels seem to match best. The dial colour for the Tikuna doesn't appear pure white but a bit "off".... Also will either of these fit the Tikuna. TIA.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I'm sure you're joking.
> 
> We had two releases of them, the most recent one this past March. No wait lists, no profiteering on the secondary market, no mad-dash feeding frenzies to order one within a 3 second window.
> 
> Just nice, neat, calm, customer-pleasing shopping experiences, courtesy of NTH and our retail partners.


I'm only half joking. If the Tikuna was popular enough to be close to selling out, it means that people like them enough to buy them today, and it would thus seem a pretty safe bet that there will be people who like them enough to buy them tomorrow. So why declare that the current batch is "almost certain to be the last we ever make"?

If I was producing a product that sold well, I would want to make more, and sell more.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> Okay, damn you all. Always fancied the Tikuna, but.... that 40mm... if only 42+... but..... looking to move some 40mm watches on and my Santa Cruz is a winner. So thinking I will pull the trigger and now that bezel change has got me thinking. Agreed, the Tikuna bezel does look a bit busy for my liking, however I do prefer some markings to the 15min mark. So.... looking through the available bezels, I'm trying to match the bezel marking colours with the dial colours as closely as possilbe. From Docs site, the Kiger/Oberon bezels seem to match best. The dial colour for the Tikuna doesn't appear pure white but a bit "off".... Also will either of these fit the Tikuna. TIA.


Any and all of the bezel inserts will " fit" the Tikuna or any other model.

I just knew the changes I wanted, red triangle, zero to minimal minute markings, matching lume color. I waffled back and forth between the 'cuda or the red ronin/oberon v2 for a bit and ultimately decided on no minute track, not even for the 15. So the 'cuda won out.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> Any and all of the bezel inserts will " fit" the Tikuna or any other model.
> 
> I just knew the changes I wanted, red triangle, zero to minimal minute markings, matching lume color. I waffled back and forth between the 'cuda or the red ronin/oberon v2 for a bit and ultimately decided on no minute track, not even for the 15. So the 'cuda won out.


Thanks, then I'll jump for the Ronin insert. Also, I don't have a heat gun, do you reckon a hair dryer will do the trick? 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Red PeeKay said:


> Thanks, then I'll jump for the Ronin insert. Also, I don't have a heat gun, do you reckon a hair dryer will do the trick?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Yes hair dryer works fine.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

kpjimmy said:


> Yes hair dryer works fine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Thanks... job done, Tikuna and bezel now inbound..... why isn't it here yet? 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Okay, damn you all. Always fancied the Tikuna, but.... that 40mm... if only 42+... but..... looking to move some 40mm watches on and my Santa Cruz is a winner. So thinking I will pull the trigger and now that bezel change has got me thinking. Agreed, the Tikuna bezel does look a bit busy for my liking, however I do prefer some markings to the 15min mark. So.... looking through the available bezels, I'm trying to match the bezel marking colours with the dial colours as closely as possilbe. From Docs site, the Kiger/Oberon bezels seem to match best. The dial colour for the Tikuna doesn't appear pure white but a bit "off".... Also will either of these fit the Tikuna. TIA.


All the Subs bezel inserts will fit all the Subs. They're inter-changeable.

The Tikuna's dial color uses "Natural" lume. That's just the name Tritec gave that lume color.

The lume on the Oberon and Kiger bezel inserts is C3, which is the same as the lume on the Tikuna insert.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

BVB









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> I'm only half joking. If the Tikuna was popular enough to be close to selling out, it means that people like them enough to buy them today, and it would thus seem a pretty safe bet that there will be people who like them enough to buy them tomorrow. So why declare that the current batch is "almost certain to be the last we ever make"?
> 
> If I was producing a product that sold well, I would want to make more, and sell more.


Actually, no. Simply being sold out of something doesn't necessarily mean a brand should make more. Sales pace matters, a lot.

If we make 500 of something, but it takes 10 years to sell 498 of them, there will come a day when I'll see that there are only 2 left. But that doesn't mean they were "popular enough" to make more. Quite the opposite - 500 was clearly way too many in that scenario.

That's an extreme example, but not entirely unrealistic. I've seen brands produce 300-500 watches they couldn't give away, much less sell.

Bear in mind my MOQ's - my vendors want me to make at least 500 cases at a time, though I can get them to lower that to 300 if need be. They also want to assemble at least 300 at a time. And I have to order at least 50 of every dial variation (date and no-date being two different variations, for a total of 100 per model, if we're making both). They also don't want to assemble less than 25 per variation.

So, we might order 600 cases, but ask them to just assemble 300 watches. In that 300 piece release, there might be 7 models. 5 of those are going to be 25 date / 25 no-date The other 2 will be no-date only, 25 each.

Business accounting 101 tells us that our inventory should turn over every 90 days, on average. Much faster than that, a brand should consider increasing production, or raising prices. Much slower than that, a brand should consider decreasing production, or lowering prices.

I'm certain many might want to argue that the watch industry is somehow different enough that the "rules" don't apply, but I'd argue otherwise. Inventory turnover combined with appropriate profit margins is what creates cash flow. Without it, you might make a profit (and owe taxes on your profit), but not actually be "making money". Profits aren't enough, if the business doesn't kick out enough cash to cover operating costs, pay taxes (or the owner, which hopefully goes without saying).

Achieving that turnover rate is much easier said than done, and most micros aren't there. That's not my guess, it's just simple math. With 300-500 piece MOQ's, and a 90-day turnover, a micro would be making 1200-2000 pieces per year. Most micros are nowhere near that sort of volume. Selling 100 pieces per month, on average, and with an appropriate profit margin, is really the threshold for a small brand to become sustainable.

To be fair, a lot of big brands aren't there either. Swatch group and Richemont both appear to have turnover measured in years, not months.

I know that some models will sell more quickly or more slowly, and we may never precisely hit 90 days exactly, but getting as close as possible is my goal. I don't mind one model taking 6 months to sell out, or another model being sold out instantly, as long as the slower sellers are offset by the faster sellers, and the numbers all work out (i,e, there's enough cash flow).

What we see over and over again is one of three things happening...

1. A model is a consistently strong seller - it seems to always be in demand, we seem to quickly sell through whatever we make, and people are always asking when we'll make more. These are the models we might keep in more-or-less constant production.

2. A model sells well enough, with a predictable pace, but not as quickly as the top sellers. These are the models we might bring back and re-release here and there, perhaps once every 6 to 18 months.

3. A model sells slowly, and we can't rationalize making them more than once every 2 years, if that. We might make 25-50 pieces, once, and that's it, or we'll make 100 pieces over 1 or 2 releases, spread out over a year, or two, and that's it.

With all of the above, we tend to see that no matter how many we make, the sales pace is very rarely constant. It tends to slow down over time. Forecasting future sales based on early, short-term sales pace is a huge error (one I made, more than once, in the early days of my business), and will lead to over-production.

If we make 50 pieces of something, and if it doesn't sell out instantly, we'll typically sell the first 20-40 fairly quickly, soon after we start sales on a new release. But the last 10-30 might take 6-12 months to sell out. By that time, my retailers don't really want me to make more, unless and until we see demand has built up enough to rationalize it.

As an observer of this business (and my competitors) for the last 8 years, I quickly came to the realization that almost anyone can sell 100 pieces of almost anything, at almost any price, but selling 300-500 pieces can be a challenge, and the time it takes to sell those 100 (or 500) pieces is the strongest predictor of a brand's future success.

This is why you see both large and small brands selling the same models for years, and offering discounts every other week. They created too much supply, there isn't enough demand, and their inventory isn't turning over quickly enough, which is killing their cash flow.

NTH isn't an exception to the rules. I'm just trying to manage my business according to them. If we make 100 of a Tikuna or some other model, I know we'll sell them all eventually, but that doesn't mean we'll make more right away, or ever. It really depends on what we see with each model's sales pace.

The way forward is for us to do our best to align the frequency with which we produce models with how quickly they sell. If we sell out of 50 pieces of something in 2 months, we'll bring that model back sooner. If it takes us 6 months to sell 50 pieces, we're not going to make more right away.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Thanks... job done, Tikuna and bezel now inbound..... why isn't it here yet?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Just FYI - you'll be getting those in two separate shipments. The insert is coming from our warehouse, the watch is coming from Watch Gauge.

Thanks for your continued business!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Actually, no. Simply being sold out of something doesn't necessarily mean a brand should make more. Sales pace matters, a lot.
> 
> If we make 500 of something, but it takes 10 years to sell 498 of them, there will come a day when I'll see that there are only 2 left. But that doesn't mean they were "popular enough" to make more. Quite the opposite - 500 was clearly way too many in that scenario.
> 
> ...


Chris, thanks for explaining this! I for one, was wondering your thought process behind your statements about not making more, or not making more any time soon. Now I think I understand where you are coming from, and I really appreciate you taking the time to pull back the curtain a bit to let us know what goes into your process! 
Great post! thanks bud!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> Chris, thanks for explaining this! I for one, was wondering your thought process behind your statements about not making more, or not making more any time soon. Now I think I understand where you are coming from, and I really appreciate you taking the time to pull back the curtain a bit to let us know what goes into your process!
> Great post! thanks bud!


We were long overdue for one of the famous WOT.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Didn't know there were so few Tiks left and no new ones. I do understand how you judge which models to produce and not keep repeating the same models over and over.

As I recall the orange Zwarduus (totally wrong spelling) took a long time to sell out, leading to the decision to not produce a second batch. 

When the time is right I will stalk all the preowned sites.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

It's funny. On the Zelos FB group, after popular releases, there used to be an inevitable few, "I couldn't get one before they sold out, why don't you make more?!?" posts or comments. 

Then, Elshan did a bunch of new and revised model releases, different price points, and looks like he upped quantities on popular models. As a result, fewer instant "sold outs" across given model lines, outside specific dial/bezel/case material combos.

Now? People remarking that he may be over-producing, since various models are not selling out instantly. Can't win for trying.

There's a part if me that thinks "I could totally launch and run a successful microbrand!" And a much, much larger voice which screams, "No, you probably could not, and honestly, why would you even invite that kind of grief in your life?!?" 

Rock on, Doc.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> It's funny. On the Zelos FB group, after popular releases, there used to be an inevitable few, "I couldn't get one before they sold out, why don't you make more?!?" posts or comments.
> 
> Then, Elshan did a bunch of new and revised model releases, different price points, and looks like he upped quantities on popular models. As a result, fewer instant "sold outs" across given model lines, outside specific dial/bezel/case material combos.
> 
> ...


I'm not here to criticize what my competitors are doing. Hopefully I can make a few observations, though, without anyone accusing me of trashing a competitor.

A few examples...

Halios Seaforth - Jason is truly a one-man show. And he's beyond detail obsessed. And while I don't know anything about his personal life, the impression I've gotten is that he appears to be completely immune to money pressures. Whatever the reason for that may be, it alleviates him from having to make some of the decisions I do.

He can take 2 years to release a new model if he wants (apparently, since he often does), obsessing over all the details, and release 100-150 at a time, if that's what he wants to do. I can't do that, because I'd run out of money (and my wife is stubbornly insistent that I actually make some).

With those Seaforths selling out instantly, and going for such a premium on the secondary market, I saw that as a clear sign he could and probably should charge more for them, just based on obvious demand, regardless of what anyone thought about "the value proposition". The only alternative would be to increase production volume, which is what I'd do (if not increase production AND raise prices). But at the time, Jason didn't appear to be either interested or capable of increasing his volume substantially, so a price increase was the only thing that made sense (to me).

Fast forward to the Fairwind, he did an open-ended pre-order, kept the prices reasonable, and based his production numbers on the pre-order sales. As a result, there was no instant sell-out, and as far as I know, they're not selling on the secondary market for the same premiums we saw with the Seaforth. He figured out how to solve the "artificial scarcity" problem without raising prices, and he deserves credit for it.

Helm (any model), Hamtun H2, Obris Morgan, and many Zelos releases - they're just not charging enough for the product, full stop. Helm should probably be charging double, if not more. I advised Ross from Hamtum that he should have charged double what he sold the H2's for on Kickstarter. I explained he could have made & sold 1/3 as many, and made the same profit, but with much less work, far fewer headaches, and much less damage to his brand's reputation. You can't rapidly scale a business like this without a rapid increase in your bandwidth. One-man-shows don't scale very well.

I think I've seen that Elshan has gradually been raising prices on each new release recently, more or less, but that the speed with which a new Zelos release sells out is directly correlated to how much "bang for the buck" people see in the price vs. specs/components. Same story with Obris Morgan - 300 pieces at 1/2 what they should charge results in an instant sell out. 500-600 pieces at 80% of what they could charge, it takes longer.

If you look at the micros putting up huge numbers on Kickstarter, or selling out of a new release within minutes, if not seconds, the reason why is almost always a direct result of underpricing the product. Selling out fast seems like a great thing, and it can be, if the business is built for it, following a "Drop" model, like Supreme. But there are downsides for watch brands.

Supreme can whip up 10,000 t-shirts or hats in a few weeks. Watch production takes 3-6 months, longer if you overwhelm your supply chain, and if you're a "one-man-show". Watch buyers are a very demanding bunch. A lot of them get really pissed off after the 2nd or 3rd failed attempt to get their hands on a hot new release, and most don't want to hear excuses from the brand owner.

What is a microbrand owner going to do for the next 6 months, if he's got no inventory to sell, and didn't make enough profit on the last release (or the one before that, or the one before that) to cover expenses, and taxes, and pay himself? This is why I reject the "I can get the same specs and components from another brand for less" argument about my prices being too high. You can't buy ANYTHING from a brand if they're sold out of everything when you're ready with your cash (or if they've gone out of business).

Talk to me in 2-3 years, when that brand owner throws in the towel and quits, or finally realizes he's got to raise prices if he wants to survive, or six to nine months from now, when you're still waiting on your discounted pre-order to arrive, and there's no word from the brand owner in months, and what you finally get isn't all you expected it to be. Talk to me when you're trying to get a refund on that KS pledge, or from the company that doesn't care about your complaint, because they've built a business around under-pricing (and under-delivering).

It took me almost 5 years to get my business to this point - no pre-orders, no waiting months to receive something after you've paid for it, no delays, no mad-dash to get your order in within seconds of sales starting, near-instant response times to support requests, fast turnaround on repairs, etc. My business offers something people put a premium on - convenience, and instant gratification. Convenience and instant gratification will cost you more, but most people understand why. I think I've proven we'll be here to support customers when they need it, and the "total product offering" (the product itself, plus all those intangibles) justifies the prices we charge.

In a perfect world, we'd be able to perfectly align supply and demand, so that the last watch from my last release sells on the same day that we start sales on our next release. But this ain't a perfect world. Figuring out what to make, how many of each thing to make, how to price them, and when to start the next production, is part art, part science. Sometimes, I'm making decisions based on what are just educated guesses, at best, based on past experience and what I think might be true 3-6 months from now.

So it is what it is - sometimes we sell 100 Barracudas before we can blink. Sometimes we need a year to sell 100 Tikunas. We may not have the exact model you want, when you want it, but we always have something available.

You might be able to take 6 months to "think about it" with some other brands, because they got caught up in over-production. Or you might have to set your alarm to get your pre-order in at 2am local time, or risk getting shut out, because they're under-pricing.

With NTH, you won't always have 6 months to think about it. And you don't need to set the alarm to get one before they're gone. But when the brand owner tells you inventory is low, you don't want to think about it for too much longer before you pull the trigger.

SIDE NOTE - Every time we sell out of those last few pieces of a model, those 2-3 units that have been sitting there on the shelf for 6 months, very soon after that we'll start getting people asking when we'll make more. It literally - not figuratively - happens EVERY time.

When the Tikunas sell out, I doubt we'll make more, ever, but certainly not for another 2 years, at a minimum, barring some unexpected and huge increase in demand for NTH models. I still haven't figured out how to get people to understand the concept of "limited" production volume in a business like this, and that we don't just make every model forever (because that would be stupid).


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

As for price comparison to the nth subs how about Atticus selling for $400 a watch, same manufacturer, same finish but $300 less? Seems interesting to say the least. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> As for price comparison how about Atticus selling for $400 a watch, same manufacturer, same finish but $300 less? Seems interesting to say the least.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Lol, I am surprised you didn't get bored yet.
You do know you can get the Aquis for half the price of your Monta right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

Ordered my first NTH yesterday. Blue Thresher w/date. Have had my eye on it since I first saw it. Looking forward to being an NTH owner.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

JLS36 said:


> As for price comparison how about Atticus selling for $400 a watch, same manufacturer, same finish but $300 less? Seems interesting to say the least.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Reading today's posts on this site, it's like a greatest hits collection. Multiple WOTs from Doc (or is that WsOT?) and a snarky-sounding post from you about watch prices. Folks are on-brand as they close out 2020!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

GP_Photography said:


> Ordered my first NTH yesterday. Blue Thresher w/date. Have had my eye on it since I first saw it. Looking forward to being an NTH owner.


You're now a full fledged member of the clubhouse. Welcome to the insanity.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Lol, I am surprised you didn't get bored yet.
> You do know you can get the Aquis for half the price of your Monta right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





Ike2 said:


> and a snarky-sounding post from you about watch prices.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Am I missing something here? I'm gonna go out on a limb and _guess _JLS is in the house? I've got that dude on ignore.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Am I missing something here? I'm gonna go out on a limb and _guess _JLS is in the house? I've got that dude on ignore.


+1

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> As for price comparison how about Atticus selling for $400 a watch, same manufacturer, same finish but $300 less? Seems interesting to say the least.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Comparing a discounted pre-order to an in-stock item FTW!!!

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Comparing a discounted pre-order to an in-stock item FTW!!!
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


Dammit... You made me look.

Not to mention its a brand that hasn't released a thing yet, and is thus building its following. Of f***ing course they'll be cheaper. Though we all know how anticipated Atticus is, and I wish Rusty the best.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Dammit... You made me look.
> 
> Not to mention its a brand that hasn't released a thing yet, and is thus building its following. Of f***ing course they'll be cheaper. Though we all know how anticipated Atticus is, and I wish Rusty the best.


I wish him the second best.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Just FYI - you'll be getting those in two separate shipments. The insert is coming from our warehouse, the watch is coming from Watch Gauge.
> 
> Thanks for your continued business!


Thanks Doc... hopefully the watch arrives first otherwise I'm gunna have to work out how to wear the bezel insert sans watch

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Thanks Doc... hopefully the watch arrives first otherwise I'm gunna have to work out how to wear the bezel insert sans watch
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


The inserts come with adhesive pre-installed. Just peel and stick.

Problem solved.

Follow me for more sartorial tips.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

I can't stop putting this in my WG cart and taking it out and putting it back in. I'm not sure I can pull off the 43.5mm. It'd be a great way to spend my whopping stimulus check.

Love the insight on the watch business. So interesting and I know I'd never be able to handle customer service. I mean you can't spit in people's watches, can you (I know spitting jokes aren't very PC during Covid times)??!!


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

HammyMan37 said:


> I can't stop putting this in my WG cart and taking it out and putting it back in. I'm not sure I can pull off the 43.5mm. It'd be a great way to spend my whopping stimulus check.
> 
> Love the insight on the watch business. So interesting and I know I'd never be able to handle customer service. I mean you can't spit in people's watches, can you (I know spitting jokes aren't very PC during Covid times)??!!
> View attachment 15624617


I love the look of that watch. Whats the lug to lug length?


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## Tad Queasy (Jun 14, 2013)

I don't know anything about running a business, Doc, and find your posts about what you have learned in the process of running yours to be interesting.

Question: Are there plans to either release a Barracuda Vintage Black with a red bezel or to make a red bezel available for those who would like to swap out the black one for a red one?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLittle said:


> I love the look of that watch. Whats the lug to lug length?


Fiddy one L2L. It's a stunner too.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Great pic Bearded!! 51 L2L aint too bad and I think i read its pretty thin too at maybe 11.5/12?

My wife's biggest complaint when I buy a new watch is they all look the same, she says, they don't. Well, this DEFINITELY DOES NOT!!!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

HammyMan37 said:


> Great pic Bearded!! 51 L2L aint too bad and I think i read its pretty thin too at maybe 11.5/12?
> 
> My wife's biggest complaint when I buy a new watch is they all look the same, she says, they don't. Well, this DEFINITELY DOES NOT!!!


No, its 13mm thick. But for 610m WR, that's ridiculously thin. The original subs are 11.5mm with 300m WR, and I believe Doc said upon their initial release they were the thinnest 300m divers made.

It wears thinner than its 13mm too. Don't know how to describe it well enough.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> I can't stop putting this in my WG cart and taking it out and putting it back in. I'm not sure I can pull off the 43.5mm. It'd be a great way to spend my whopping stimulus check.
> 
> Love the insight on the watch business. So interesting and I know I'd never be able to handle customer service. I mean you can't spit in people's watches, can you (I know spitting jokes aren't very PC during Covid times)??!!
> View attachment 15624617


We can do more than spit...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tad Queasy said:


> I don't know anything about running a business, Doc, and find your posts about what you have learned in the process of running yours to be interesting.
> 
> Question: Are there plans to either release a Barracuda Vintage Black with a red bezel or to make a red bezel available for those who would like to swap out the black one for a red one?


No plans. Can't do red with steel bezel inserts, because the color isn't available from our PVD/DLC supplier.

From what's available to us, we've used just about all the PVD colors worth using, I think, save for one that's like an olive-green.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> No, its 13mm thick. But for 610m WR, that's ridiculously thin. The original subs are 11.5mm with 300m WR, and I believe Doc said upon their initial release they were the thinnest 300m divers made.
> 
> It wears thinner than its 13mm too. Don't know how to describe it well enough.


As far as I know, it's the thinnest 60+ ATM diver ever made. But who can be sure, and how?

I think they wear thinner because of the case design. The case isn't slab-sided, and the lugs curve down nicely. 13mm thickness is a wrist-brick if the watch is under 40mm, but over 42mm, it seems completely proportional to the diameter and lug-length.

I've still got mine on the rubber strap sample. Been wearing it a lot. Slides under a shirt cuff easily, doesn't feel heavy, doesn't look too big on my ~7"-7.25" wrist. Maybe not quite as "invisible" as the 40mm Subs, but nowhere near what you'd expect from a watch its size.

Just for context -

The Swiftsure on the rubber strap weighs 113 grams.

The v.1 DevilRay on a Seiko silicone weights 125 grams.

The v.2 DevilRay on a Bonetto natural rubber weighs 119 grams.

A steel Seiko Samurai on Crafter Blue rubber weighs 124g.

The 2K1's are the thinnest and lightest of the bunch (save for the Samurai, which is also 13mm), despite having 20% more WR than the DevilRays, and 3x what the Samurai has.

My 40mm Subs on bracelets fitted to my wrist weigh 142g. If I can forget I'm wearing one of those, the 2K1's on a rubber aren't going to be reminding me they're there very often.

Even on the bracelets, fitted to my wrist, the 2K1's are only ~50g heavier than on the strap, around 163g. For those who use 'Murican units - we're talking about the difference between 5 oz and 5.75 oz (between the 40mm Subs on bracelet and the 2K1's on bracelet - 142g vs 163g). Go find me two things within 0.75oz of each other in weight, and tell me you can honestly feel the difference between them without looking at them, with 100% certainty.

It's a big watch that doesn't wear like a big watch.

Don't obsess over the dimensions too much. The DevilRay's case is 43mm, but the bezel is only 40mm. The 2K1's bezel is 43.75mm, but the mid-case is only 41.75mm. What you see is bezel, but what you feel on your wrist is the case. Either can mess with your perceptions of size, but I think people tend to fret over the visual more, pre-purchase. Everyone sees a number, and thinks it'll look huge, but that's not necessarily so. I think they both wear smaller than their dimensions, because of their case designs.

The Samurai has a slightly larger diameter (43.8mm), but a stubby lug length of just 47.5mm. I see all the reviews claiming the Samurai wears smaller, but I disagree. I rarely wear mine, because it feels huge and chunky to me, compared to just about every other watch in my collection. As much as I love its case design, visually, it just doesn't work for me ergonomically. I feel it every moment that it's on my wrist, and not in a good way.

If people think the Samurai wears smaller than its dimensions, they should be blown away by the 2K1's.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> As far as I know, it's the thinnest 60+ ATM diver ever made. But who can be sure, and how?
> 
> I think they wear thinner because of the case design. The case isn't slab-sided, and the lugs curve down nicely. 13mm thickness is a wrist-brick if the watch is under 40mm, but over 42mm, it seems completely proportional to the diameter and lug-length.
> 
> ...


Fantastic post. IMO, a must read post for all watch lovers in regards to size and length preconceptions.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> No plans. Can't do red with steel bezel inserts, because the color isn't available from our PVD/DLC supplier.
> 
> From what's available to us, we've used just about all the PVD colors worth using, I think, save for one that's like an olive-green.


Hmmm, olive green Scorpene...

It even rhymes.

I can't remember if you've "no"ed it yet...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> Hmmm, olive green Scorpene...
> 
> It even rhymes.
> 
> ...


My eyes are watering already. Hope that happens ;-)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Hmmm, olive green Scorpene...
> 
> It even rhymes.
> 
> ...


No.

It doesn't rhyme. Scorpène is French, and rhymes with ten, not green, especially if you habitually pronounce "ten" in an overly exaggerated way, which is apparently how the French pronounce everything.





__





scorpène in french - Google Search






www.google.com


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, I bought my first NTH Sub used and sold it 4 months later with a bit more wear for the same price. Since then, I've paid full retail for two more. 

Because microbrand, limited production quantities, and popularity of the brand, I buy NTH on release. Call it FOMO or just plain watchlust. So the convenience and instant gratification aspect is lost on me.

And I see the value in the brand. Honestly, it's all about design, fit, and detail. Next best thing to a Scorpene would be a Sinn, which would be 3x the cost and larger than I like to wear. Or a custom modded watch, which would be pretty close to the price of a new NTH, at lower spec, and amateur assembly, with no warranty.

If Rusty dropped Atticus at full retail pricing, I'd probably be in on that. As it is, I'm delighted he will be offering pre-orders at a discount. Same with Traska, and I have certainly taken advantage of Zelos's intro pricing. 

Outside of microbrands I shop, and wear Chinese homages and mod Vostoks. Very cheap; much value. But also derivative design, and cheap material, with sometimes quirky features and cost-cutting measures. 

Long-winded way of saying I have some perspective and appreciate NTH value proposition and availability.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Hmmm, olive green Scorpene...
> 
> It even rhymes.
> 
> ...





JLittle said:


> My eyes are watering already. Hope that happens ;-)


Find 48 more guys who want one enough to plunk down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders, and we'll make them.

Make sure you can get your group of 50 to agree that 25 will take with-date, and 25 will take no-date.

Or, just get 23 more guys who all agree to get either with-date, or no-date - all 25 the same - and we'll assemble those 25 with the olive green bezel the next time we make the black-dialed Scorpènes, whenever that will be (probably sometime mid-next-year-ish).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> FWIW, I bought my first NTH Sub used and sold it 4 months later with a bit more wear for the same price. Since then, I've paid full retail for two more.
> 
> Because microbrand, limited production quantities, and popularity of the brand, I buy NTH on release. Call it FOMO or just plain watchlust. So the convenience and instant gratification aspect is lost on me.
> 
> ...


Along those lines...










For anyone whose eyes can't make out the small type in that (unedited) message...

_Hi._​​_I recently purchased a white/silver no date Devil Ray._​​_My first impression of the Devil Ray was "wow"!_​​_This watch has incredible presence. It is not a blingy "wow" but, rather an eye-catching cool that I enjoy having on my wrist. The NTH team has struck an excellent balance between a "nod to history" retro-vibe and a well-rendered modern diver._​​_I appreciate Doxa watches but, I am yet to encounter one in the wild. All that I have to go on, in order to form an opinion of Doxa watches are photos and video. To be absolutely fair, I would need to see them in person but, for the time being, I will say that Doxa was - operative word "was" - on my grail list._​​_I have to keep an open mind because I know that the photos that I had seen of the Devil Ray did not begin to do justice to how it looked on wrist. The Doxa could be the same kind of deal._​​_However, there are several design features in the Devil Ray that I actually prefer, such as the "two tone" bezel and how the bezel flanks are hooded/shielded. I also prefer the well-detailed handset and how the indices are cut into the re-haut. Overall, for me the Devil Ray watch-head has a more interesting appearance than the Doxa Sub 300. However, for me, in this style of watch, the Doxa beads of rice bracelet is the best look._​​_Beyond the aforementioned features, the sunburst silver dial is spectacular (without being blingy) and the lume is simply incredible. Enter a lit building, from regular daylight and your watch will glow, big-time. The lume glows like a torch and lasts all night long, too. The inner AR coating really cuts any reflection in the beautiful domed sapphire crystal._​​_I've been into/obsessed with watches for about 2 years and though I appreciate the mainstream historical manufacturers, I have developed a partiality towards well-rendered, high value proposition, microbrands. I believe that if you endeavour to learn about what makes watches tick (technology, materials, movements, etc.), take the time to discover your taste preferences, and do your homework (on the brand founders, their ethos, their design language, and quality), you will find excellent watches for a reasonable price._​​_My Devil Ray is the second mechanical watch I have purchased. My first was back in September 2020 and it was the chasm black Nodus Duality (super-compressor style). Both are attractive, well-designed, solid watches with reliable Japanese movements. Practical and aesthetically pleasing watches that cover all occasions - both are capable tool, sport, and casual wear watches, with the Nodus also being able to dress up well for formal occasions with a leather strap. Throw in my blue dial Citizen Eco-Drive Promaster Dive watch as my grab and go beater, and my collection is complete. Three great watches, without breaking the bank!_​​_My NTH Devil Ray has astounding accuracy, losing about 1 second per day. Kudos to the Seiko NH38 and NTH's regulation of same._​​_The only apparent weakness of my Devil Ray is that the bracelet clasp has a tendency to pop open, if there is any flex/force applied to it. Though I prefer my Devil Ray on a rubber strap, I wish that the bracelet clasp did its job properly. Also, though it wears very well on my 7.5 inch wrist, I wouldn't object if the Devil Ray's water resistance were reduced to 300m, if that were to facilitate slimming the case down a bit. Just an idea..._​​_I am very surprised that the Devil Ray has not made a much bigger splash in the watch community (with both reviewers and consumers). It is a beautiful, standout, well-constructed, watch that I believe represents a fantastic value proposition._​​_Unless I encounter a Doxa Sub 300 Sea Rambler in real life and it blows me away, I have to say that I have more than scratched that $2500+ USD itch for a mere $525 USD. For 20% of the money, my Devil Ray delivers, big-time!_​​_It might not have the Doxa provenance but, my NTH Devil Ray puts a huge smile on my face, everytime I put it on and happen to glance at my wrist._​​_Cheers, Greg_​
Or, put more simply, this (posted to FB by a guy with a v.1)...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> No.
> 
> It doesn't rhyme. Scorpène is French, and rhymes with ten, not green, especially if you habitually pronounce "ten" in an overly exaggerated way, which is apparently how the French pronounce everything.
> 
> ...


Whilst searching for refutation, found this... made me heh.






Also, I do vaguely recall a semi wot explanation on the pronunciation of "skorpen", my apologies.

Also, un verte olive Scorpène, c'est magnifique.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

But hey, someone somewhere is selling the same set of specs and components for less, so I must be overcharging...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Whilst searching for refutation, found this... made me heh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My wife and I recently started binging on "Doc Martin" on Hulu. At least 3x per episode, I have to pause, rewind, and translate what the hell was just said.

I think it was Winston Churchill who said England and America were two countries divided by a common language...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Find 48 more guys who want one enough to plunk down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders, and we'll make them.
> 
> Make sure you can get your group of 50 to agree that 25 will take with-date, and 25 will take no-date.
> 
> Or, just get 23 more guys who all agree to get either with-date, or no-date - all 25 the same - and we'll assemble those 25 with the olive green bezel the next time we make the black-dialed Scorpènes, whenever that will be (probably sometime mid-next-year-ish).


Pffft! I don't even know 4 people.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> My wife and I recently started binging on "Doc Martin" on Hulu. At least 3x per episode, I have to pause, rewind, and translate what the hell was just said.
> 
> I think it was Winston Churchill who said England and America were two countries divided by a common language...


I can clearly remember my 8 year old brain attempting to understand some directions given to my father in London, after he accidentally requested them from a wee Scot nan(there were no obvious markings)...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I can clearly remember my 8 year old brain attempting to understand some directions given to my father in London, after he accidentally requested them from a wee Scot nan(there were no obvious markings)...
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Some of the pronunciations in the show make my head hurt, especially as a former medic, hearing the medical terms. The one that sticks out in my memory, from last night, is the doctor pronouncing "cervical" as "sir-VIGH-kel", not "SERVE-eh-kle".

All my mental gears came to a screeching halt when he said it.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> My wife and I recently started binging on "Doc Martin" on Hulu. At least 3x per episode, I have to pause, rewind, and translate what the hell was just said.
> 
> I think it was Winston Churchill who said England and America were two countries divided by a common language...


I always thought it was Bertrand Russell who said that. Whomever. It is an apt description of the language and its divisiveness.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

captainmorbid said:


> Hmmm, olive green Scorpene...
> 
> It even rhymes.
> 
> ...


Interesting that you ended that with "yet". 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

3WR said:


> Interesting that you ended that with "yet".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was almost in the Boy Scouts, occasionally prepared..

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> I always thought it was Bertrand Russell who said that. Whomever. It is an apt description of the language and its divisiveness.


The Google machine says it was George Bernard Shaw, or Oscar Wilde.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> The Google machine says it was George Bernard Shaw, or Oscar Wilde.


Neither you nor Google will get an argument from me.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

True story: 

Wife and I went to Wales. First night, we stayed in Cardiff, went out to eat at a local pub. I'm of Irish ancestry and don't dress dooshy-American when traveling, knew enough to go up to the bar to order.

Bartender: "glacu rechaana bleru sme?"
Me: "...sorry, I only speak English?"
Bartender: "Wa cn eee d fr ya?"
Me: "...also, I am American and slightly deaf..."
Bartender: "Ah, reet - would you liek t order?"


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> My wife and I recently started binging on "Doc Martin" on Hulu. At least 3x per episode, I have to pause, rewind, and translate what the hell was just said.
> 
> I think it was Winston Churchill who said England and America were two countries divided by a common language...


Doc Martin was a great series, and we had a similar issue understanding the accent, but it gets better by season two.

The Brokenwood Mysteries from New Zealand is a bit more understandable, but does require re-winding at times. Great show if you can handle 90 minute episodes.

Peaky Blinders on Netflix is a great period piece, but the accents get so thick that we're constantly going, "Huhh?" Great series though, but a bit violent. Definitely not for children.

Don't fret over who, or who didn't, make that comment. I was a Twain scholar, and had to constantly politely correct folks on quotes that he didn't make. Mis-attribution is common with historic quotes.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mr.Boots said:


> Doc Martin was a great series, and we had a similar issue understanding the accent, but it gets better by season two.
> 
> The Brokenwood Mysteries from New Zealand is a bit more understandable, but does require re-winding at times. Great show if you can handle 90 minute episodes.
> 
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Boots said:


> Doc Martin was a great series, and we had a similar issue understanding the accent, but it gets better by season two.
> 
> The Brokenwood Mysteries from New Zealand is a bit more understandable, but does require re-winding at times. Great show if you can handle 90 minute episodes.
> 
> ...


Yep, we've watched all the Peaky Blinders, but maybe understood about half of it.

We're actually in season 3 of Doc Martin, I think. The whole series reminds me of this scene from Hot Fuzz...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> True story:
> 
> Wife and I went to Wales. First night, we stayed in Cardiff, went out to eat at a local pub. I'm of Irish ancestry and don't dress dooshy-American when traveling, knew enough to go up to the bar to order.
> 
> ...


Back in 2007, my mother and step-father took our entire family, plus my grandfather (19 people, in total) to Lake Como, Italy.

I don't speak Italian, but I found the 3 years of Spanish I took in High School 20 years earlier served me better there than a lifetime of speaking English served me whilst trying to understand the Londoner working the ticket booth in Paddington Station, last year, as he tried to get me to understand we needed to change trains at "West Brompton".

Also, TRUE STORY -

My mother's family is from Long Island, NY. I grew up in Philadelphia. Like most kids riding in the car with their parents, I never paid much attention to how to get from Philly to NY when my mother was driving. So the first time I made the trip on my own, I had to ask my mom for directions (this was pre-internet and Google Maps, like 1989 or 1990).

My mother's name is Elizabeth. The signs for the exit off the Jersey Turnpike, for the Goethals Bridge over to Staten Island, say, among other things, "Elizabeth, New Jersey", but somehow, my mother forgot that, and that the signs also say "Goethals Bridge". So she just told me to watch the signs for "Long Island", or "Verrazano Bridge", which they don't actually say (or at least they didn't, back then).

Surprisingly, I missed the exit.

I'd driven well past it before the scenery made me certain I'd gone too far, and pulled into a rest stop to ask for directions, which is where all the trouble started.

I ended up talking to some guy in uniform behind an inch-thick sheet of plexiglass. Apparently he was telling me to continue North, through the Bronx, then follow signs for the Throgs Neck Bridge, which would get me to the Cross Island Parkway, then to the Southern State Parkway, from which point I'd know my way.

The problem was - he had a severe cleft palate, which created a pretty bad speech impediment.

That, combined with a New York accent, and him shouting through a 4-inch hole at the bottom of the plexi, and the ambient noise you'd expect in a busy Turnpike rest stop, and the fact that I'd never even heard of the Throgs Neck Bridge, or the Cross Island Parkway, I must have asked him to repeat himself a half dozen times before I pretended to understand him. In point of fact, I recognized "the Bronx", but not much else.

I walked outside and asked the first dude I saw if he'd ever heard of the Frog Nest Bridge, or the Crock Thailand Parkway.

The guy looked like he might $hlt himself laughing.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Nuther part o' Canadia eh.

Bit long. Semi funny.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

docvail said:


> Find yours here - KIGER Milsub


Just received mine. Thanks for the link.









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> Find yours here - KIGER Milsub


Just received mine as well. Thanks for the link!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So a while back I purchased a 22mm leather strap from another forum member. Nice strap, thick, tough, nice color. But it was.... dry? Stiff. Not very comfy.

So I bought some Neatsfoot Oil for leather goods. I'm impressed with this stuff. It will darken lighter leathers of course, but holy crap, does it soften leather up.

So heres the days _second_ cardinal sin of a diver on leather.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm just not that into leather.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Happy New Year, gents (and any ladies weird enough to be hanging around here)!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'm just not that into leather.


Not even exotics? I got an Ostrich Leg strap for my Ball. Liked it so much I ordered another one in blue, plus a dark grey/black one for my Hamilton Navy Pioneer.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Yep, we've watched all the Peaky Blinders, but maybe understood about half of it.
> 
> We're actually in season 3 of Doc Martin, I think. The whole series reminds me of this scene from Hot Fuzz...


These two come to mind regarding dialogue in movies and TV that's 'lost in translation':
Brad Pitt's 'unique' use of the Queen's English as Mickey O'Neil, the traveller, in Snatch.
90's TV show Hamish Macbeth starring Robert Carlyle.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Right, so...





































StrapsCo 40mm fitted strap, with clasp. Not sure how long it will last on this, but so far, so good. I got a Seiko SKX version with a buckle, and it wears a bit thick, but probably more to do with SKX than the buckle style.

I have one other watch with rubber and a clasp, but not fitted, and that one wears fine, too.

Looks great, wears well, I'm sure I'll pick up a legit NTH version when they are available.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Not even exotics? I got an Ostrich Leg strap for my Ball. Liked it so much I ordered another one in blue, plus a dark grey/black one for my Hamilton Navy Pioneer.


It was a subtle joke.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> It was a subtle joke.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Happy New Year everyone! 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

bolts40 said:


> Just received mine. Thanks for the link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





307 said:


> Just received mine as well. Thanks for the link!
> View attachment 15626603


Congrats to you both. Really cool model.

I'm glad these were posted today and not earlier. The thought of there being a run on the last Kigers (I'm assuming there aren't many left) was making me anxious as mine seemed to be lost in the postal matrix. Much to my relief, I finally got a tracking update this morning. Five days after even the generic daily "In transit, arriving late" updates stopped coming in. Can't wait to get it back.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Not even exotics? I got an Ostrich Leg strap for my Ball. Liked it so much I ordered another one in blue, plus a dark grey/black one for my Hamilton Navy Pioneer.


Why strap your Ball to your leg? Is there a preferred leg?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Why strap your Ball to your leg? Is there a preferred leg?


LQTM.....

I never get tired of Ball jokes. And I own three of them. And there's another one in the making...

ON a related note, got back from Amsterdam last night in time to celebrate. Wore the Amphion, but never found an opportunity for a photo. Most everything is locked down, so the layover was spent with a short walk down a quiet street, and some time reading in the hotel room. Headed out today to London, and I expect the same experience. But I'll likely take a longer walk, and see if I can't find a place for a photo worth taking...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Rhorya said:


> Why strap your Ball to your leg? Is there a preferred leg?













dmjonez said:


> LQTM.....
> 
> I never get tired of Ball jokes. And I own three of them. And there's another one in the making...
> 
> ON a related note, got back from Amsterdam last night in time to celebrate. Wore the Amphion, but never found an opportunity for a photo. Most everything is locked down, so the layover was spent with a short walk down a quiet street, and some time reading in the hotel room. Headed out today to London, and I expect the same experience. But I'll likely take a longer walk, and see if I can't find a place for a photo worth taking...


The best(or worst?) part about my Balls? They're both blue.
Amsterdam is great. Spent Christmas there a few years back, then we made our way to Rome for New Years.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> The best(or worst?) part about my Balls? They're both blue.
> Amsterdam is great. Spent Christmas there a few years back, then we made our way to Rome for New Years.


My favorite aspect of my job is the travel, but as has been duly noted, this is the weirdest of years.

I normally spend my time in a half dozen beautiful locations. But we've added others as routes have opened and closed, and much is now cargo only. My office has 300 seats, and we took 63 people to AMS on the last trip. Some places allow us outside, but just to walk. I'm headed to Rome later this month, and hope to get outside, if only to walk. We have a "private" FB page for those in my fleet to share experiences and the crew that just returned from Rome posted photos of the Spanish Steps and St Peter's Basilica. Both completely deserted...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> My favorite aspect of my job is the travel, but as has been duly noted, this is the weirdest of years.
> 
> I normally spend my time in a half dozen beautiful locations. But we've added others as routes have opened and closed, and much is now cargo only. My office has 300 seats, and we took 63 people to AMS on the last trip. Some places allow us outside, but just to walk. I'm headed to Rome later this month, and hope to get outside, if only to walk. We have a "private" FB page for those in my fleet to share experiences and the crew that just returned from Rome posted photos of the Spanish Steps and St Peter's Basilica. Both completely deserted...


"May you live in interesting times" indeed.

Not even remotely ironic that the expression is widely believed to be a translation of a Chinese curse.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Hard at work


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just 'cause...it's Saturday? It's a new year? Just 'cause.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The Queen wasn't home.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

3WR said:


> Congrats to you both. Really cool model.
> 
> I'm glad these were posted today and not earlier. The thought of there being a run on the last Kigers (I'm assuming there aren't many left) was making me anxious as mine seemed to be lost in the postal matrix. Much to my relief, I finally got a tracking update this morning. Five days after even the generic daily "In transit, arriving late" updates stopped coming in. Can't wait to get it back.


My Kiger is back! I sat down, opened browser which still had this post up. Immediately heard an engine on the street. Looked up and saw mailman drive by. About two seconds later as I was mid thought wondering if he'd delivered my watch, a delivery notification popped up on my phone.

Retrieved and opened package. Wound and set the time. That was 2:21 on 1/2/21.

Two fun (for me, at least) coincidences to start the year.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> Hard at work
> 
> View attachment 15628818


Very cool. I just watched The Flight Attendant series. They also had some cool travel opportunities. I'd rather be sitting in that seat than back in the galley.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> Very cool. I just watched The Flight Attendant series. They also had some cool travel opportunities. I'd rather be sitting in that seat than back in the galley.


The view is significantly better. 
On an oddly related note, I noticed that WUS has changed my "flag" to the Union Jack. Must be due to the hotel's WiFi IP


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> The view is significantly better.
> On an oddly related note, I noticed that WUS has changed my "flag" to the Union Jack. Must be due to the hotel's WiFi IP


Indeed. The flag shown under forum users' avatars is a function of their IP location. If the user has indicated a location in their profile, that will show up when you hover your cursor over the flag, like so...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a completely unrelated note, and I'm sure I don't need to say this to most people here, which makes this a minor rant...

Peeps, be kind when you contact a business for support. Whether you are or not, the business will likely get you sorted out, but the support you get will often be better overall when you're not a d1ck in your communications.

It amazes me how many people don't get this. When you're cool, we'll go above and beyond to help you out. When you're being a demanding jerk, we won't. You'll get the bare minimum of support needed to solve your issue, not necessarily as quickly or as easily as it could have been, had you shown a bare minimum of courtesy to our staff.

Even though I have a virtual assistant to help with support, I still see the communications back and forth, even when she's handling things. I see when someone is being rude. And if need be, I'll intercede. 

Trust me on this - no matter what you may believe, coming on too strong is not going to gain you anything in our dealings with each other.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

What do you do when you've already used up both arms (and both legs if you're Bearded)?

NTH desk clock...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Yeah, honestly, I think a couple years of mandatory service after high school would be a good idea. Military, peace corps, AmeriCorps, church mission,... or work retail. I've worked retail or customer service on and off my whole life. So when I'm on the other end of the equation, I treat people like I'd hope to be treated... like a human.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Out of curiosity, anyone in these parts looking for a Lew & Huey Orthos, v.1, red-dial (the one pictured below)?

Thinking of selling mine, and figured I'd ask here first.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Yeah, honestly, I think a couple years of mandatory service after high school would be a good idea. Military, peace corps, AmeriCorps, church mission,... or work retail. I've worked retail or customer service on and off my whole life. So when I'm on the other end of the equation, I treat people like I'd hope to be treated... like a human.


One of the things I am most convinced of is that kids need a job and some responsibility to financially provide for themselves, even if it's just their own phone bill or car insurance, through high school and college. And better if that job involves serving people above and below their own position.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Yeah, honestly, I think a couple years of mandatory service after high school would be a good idea. Military, peace corps, AmeriCorps, church mission,... or work retail. I've worked retail or customer service on and off my whole life. So when I'm on the other end of the equation, I treat people like I'd hope to be treated... like a human.


Same, for the most part.

I reserve the right to be rancorous when dealing with terrible support from huge monopolies that charge outrageous sums for mediocre products or services.

If you chose to work in phone support for the cable company, which is also now our internet provider, and I call for support because one or the other (or both) are inexplicably out, and after wading through your byzantine automated help system, then waiting 10 minutes on hold, I learn you can't tell me anything, or help me in any way, because my wife put the account in her name when we moved in, and she's not available to get on the phone with us, God help you, and your ears, which will burn fiery hot with the string of (extremely well-deserved) profanities I will hurl at you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> One of the things I am most convinced of is that kids need a job and some responsibility to financially provide for themselves, even if it's just their own phone bill or car insurance, through high school and college. And better if that job involves serving people above and below their own position.


Funny you both mention "kids".

As it happens, today (which is a Saturday, part of a holiday weekend, I should point out) we're dealing with a support request from someone who appears to be in his early 20's, judging from his FB profile pic.

Yes, we'll look you up on social media, sometimes, when you contact us, if only to see if we can figure out where you are located in the world, so we can begin tailoring our solution to minimize costs for both of us.

I hate to generalize about an entire generation, like "millennials", but the sad truth is many of that group seem to carry around this strange sense of entitlement. Speaking as an member of Gen-X, and as a military veteran, it's extremely alien to me. Even though I'm somewhat used to seeing it on display, I still don't understand how it persists, even as someone gets further from "childhood", and one would assume the real world has taught them something about the way things work in the real world.


----------



## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> Out of curiosity, anyone in these parts looking for a Lew & Huey Orthos, v.1, red-dial (the one pictured below)?
> 
> Thinking of selling mine, and figured I'd ask here first.
> 
> View attachment 15630199


Nice looking piece. Should I PM you about the details?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I hate to generalize about an entire generation, like "millennials"


Being born in '85, it pains me that I'm "classified" as a Millenial.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Same, for the most part.
> 
> I reserve the right to be rancorous when dealing with terrible support from huge monopolies that charge outrageous sums for mediocre products or services.
> 
> If you chose to work in phone support for the cable company, which is also now our internet provider, and I call for support because one or the other (or both) are inexplicably out, and after wading through your byzantine automated help system, then waiting 10 minutes on hold, I learn you can't tell me anything, or help me in any way, because my wife put the account in her name when we moved in, and she's not available to get on the phone with us, God help you, and your ears, which will burn fiery hot with the string of (extremely well-deserved) profanities I will hurl at you.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Being born in '85, it pains me that I'm "classified" as a Millenial.


Don't worry about it, the boomers said all of the same things about us Gen Xs.

Quote from my mother when I was in my early 20s: "only two types of people have tattoos, sailors and aids ridden junkies". Obvious that she's gotten over that preconception in the meantime.

For perspective, imagine what the Greatest generation said about the boomers...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLittle said:


> Nice looking piece. Should I PM you about the details?


PM or email to customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


----------



## Jwatches826 (Jun 13, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> And better if that job involves serving people above and below their own position.


Fantastic observation - something that I haven't really thought about.

I'm not certain whether I'm following this thread for the great NTH watches that I'm considering or for the great and interesting wide range of conversations, from best pizzas in a certain region to proper ways to train/ educate the next generation; it's both, for sure! What a wonderful thread in the forum.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Jwatches826 said:


> Fantastic observation - something that I haven't really thought about.
> 
> I'm not certain whether I'm following this thread for the great NTH watches that I'm considering or for the great and interesting wide range of conversations, from best pizzas in a certain region to proper ways to train/ educate the next generation; it's both, for sure! What a wonderful thread in the forum.


Don't forget sandwiches. We were talking sub sandwiches a couple days back.


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)




----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Out of curiosity, anyone in these parts looking for a Lew & Huey Orthos, v.1, red-dial (the one pictured below)?
> 
> Thinking of selling mine, and figured I'd ask here first.
> 
> View attachment 15630199


No, but if you ever make one with a no-date dial (and otherwise exactly the same), I will throw my money at you.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Don't forget sandwiches. We were talking sub sandwiches a couple days back.


I missed that conversation. Had I not, I would have heaped praise on the Pizza Cheesesteak hoagie (among other delicious choices) at Hoagie Haven in Princeton, NJ. That place is worth a detour from the Turnpike.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Homebound


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Papa's got a brand new bag!

Doc... I haven't been this excited about a newly received watch in a long time. This is better than the Nacken!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

captainmorbid said:


> Don't worry about it, the boomers said all of the same things about us Gen Xs.
> 
> Quote from my mother when I was in my early 20s: "only two types of people have tattoos, sailors and aids ridden junkies". Obvious that she's gotten over that preconception in the meantime.
> 
> ...


I think every generation says it about the next:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

― Socrates


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> No, but if you ever make one with a no-date dial (and otherwise exactly the same), I will throw my money at you.


We did make the v.2 Orthos with no-date options.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Papa's got a brand new bag!
> 
> Doc... I haven't been this excited about a newly received watch in a long time. This is better than the Nacken!


I mean....I'm happy that you're happy, but better than the Näcken?

Lots of peeps gonna disagree with you about that, methinks.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> We did make the v.2 Orthos with no-date options.


With a red dial? If so I'll start hunting for one on the secondary market ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> With a red dial? If so I'll start hunting for one on the secondary market ...


Good luck with that. We didn't make too many. And we sold out of them in July 2017.

The Orthos II production was just 361 pieces total, including 261 of the Orthos Commander 300. There were only 100 of the other colorways made, total.

I think we only made 10-15 of the "Black Cherry" no-date.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> PM or email to customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


Email sent, Doc. Got an automated response.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLittle said:


> Email sent, Doc. Got an automated response.


The automated response is to suggest people who want to contact us don't email us, then ALSO submit the contact form of the website, or vice-versa.

Eager beavers.

PS - Just started season 3 of Cobra Kai with my wife. I'll respond as soon as I can. Signing off the internet for a while now.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I think we only made 10-15 of the "Black Cherry" no-date.
> 
> View attachment 15631750


Ah, now I remember! You changed the handset from the v1. To my eye, those hands are just too skinny compared to the rather massive markers. (Yes, I am extremely picky. If I wasn't, I would own several hundred watches &#8230


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I mean....I'm happy that you're happy, but better than the Näcken?
> 
> Lots of peeps gonna disagree with you about that, methinks.


I guarantee folks will disagree with me. The Näcken is a stellar watch. It's the only watch I've ever bought in the >$500 range, a barrier I didn't ever think I'd cross until I found the Näcken. Don't get me wrong, I love. my. Näcken.

Also, California dials are divisive. Cathedral hands are divisive. I didn't care for cathedral hands. Or California dials.

...until I saw the Ghost. I kinda knew right away that I needed to own one. On the wrist, it's even better than pictured. The skeleton indices. The long skinny hands. The subtle way the NTH logo appears and disappears... like a ghost. And in the perfect proportions of an NTH sub. It's just so much better than the sum of its parts.

Maybe I'm just honeymooning here, but I don't think so. It's definitely my new favorite watch!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)




----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

RotorRonin said:


> Papa's got a brand new bag!
> 
> Doc... I haven't been this excited about a newly received watch in a long time. This is better than the Nacken!


Great shot. The ghost is the nazzario I'd get out of them. Good balance of funky and clean.

I'd agree with you about the nakens actually. Ive had the modern blue. The black is great but imo needs one more item to make it pop. The ghost also does that in a different way.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

My favourite NTH Sub is my modified Barracuda (my take on what an Amphion modern blue gilt would look like). It has been on my wrist since New Years Eve eve and I still don't feel like taking it off. This one will never leave my collection!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Omegafanboy said:


> My favourite NTH Sub is my modified Barracuda (my take on what an Amphion modern blue gilt would look like). It has been on my wrist since New Years Eve eve and I still don't feel like taking it off. This one will never leave my collection!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy crap thats awesome! Im a huge Amphion fan boy, so this would be great for me!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Back in my home office with my Amphion.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> Good luck with that. We didn't make too many. And we sold out of them in July 2017.
> 
> The Orthos II production was just 361 pieces total, including 261 of the Orthos Commander 300. There were only 100 of the other colorways made, total.
> 
> ...


Wow, that was a cool looking watch. Very Omega-esque. Any chance of a comeback for this one?


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

@docvail Do you intend to offer the new releases (read: Scorpene) directly through your site or is watch guage the appropriate channel to acquire one?

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Morning with Odin


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The best Amphion

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Odin on a Scurfa strap ...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

307 said:


> Odin on a Scurfa strap ...
> View attachment 15632815


My next door neighbor has a black German Sheppard puppy thats named Odin. (he loves to play with our puppy), He Reminds me of watches every time I hear his name lol.
I told my wife that the neighbors dog and a watch from a brand I own have the same name, she said " youre a nerd".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> Wow, that was a cool looking watch. Very Omega-esque. Any chance of a comeback for this one?


Doubtful.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> @docvail Do you intend to offer the new releases (read: Scorpene) directly through your site or is watch guage the appropriate channel to acquire one?
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Either. We have some. He has some.

I just added the inventory for that one, plus the Renegade, the Santa Cruz, and the Barracuda Brown to our website, and made them available for purchase. Official announcement to be coming in an email to our newsletter subscribers later this week.


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

PowerChucker said:


> My next door neighbor has a black German Sheppard puppy thats named Odin. (he loves to play with our puppy), He Reminds me of watches every time I hear his name lol.
> I told my wife that the neighbors dog and a watch from a brand I own have the same name, she said " youre a nerd".


I brought my Nth watches plus some others in my collection with me on vacation, and in my carryon luggage, in a plastic tupperware container ... So I took the Tupperware container out of my bag for the security screening, and got raised eyebrows from the TSA guys when they saw it on the screen, embarrassing my wife, who quickly let them know the extent of my watch nerd-i-ness.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

307 said:


> I brought my Nth watches plus some others in my collection with me on vacation, and in my carryon luggage, in a plastic tupperware container ... So I took the Tupperware container out of my bag for the security screening, and got raised eyebrows from the TSA guys when they saw it on the screen, embarrassing my wife, who quickly let them know the extent of my watch nerd-i-ness.


Im right there with you brother!


----------



## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

307 said:


> Odin on a Scurfa strap ...
> View attachment 15632815


That is a nice looking watch. I have a "Nearly New" version en route to me currently. Have not previously tried anything from Nth.


----------



## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

NS1 said:


> That is a nice looking watch. I have a "Nearly New" version en route to me currently. Have not previously tried anything from Nth.


Careful .... got my first Nth around the end of November. Then bought another 5 (all but one used) and sold all my Seikos!


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Either. We have some. He has some.
> 
> I just added the inventory for that one, plus the Renegade, the Santa Cruz, and the Barracuda Brown to our website, and made them available for purchase. Official announcement to be coming in an email to our newsletter subscribers later this week.












Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Oh I got your money alright, done deal. 

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

MuckyMark said:


>


Nice!


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Looks great in the office AND the cigar lounge!


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## redhed18 (Mar 23, 2013)

That looks beautiful...
but what are everyone's thoughts on printing model names on the dial? 

My own thoughts are the watches are better off without them.
Put it on the back, or leave it on the catalog page.

I enjoy a number of the NTH models, but always slightly put off by some of the names on the dial.
It means nothing to me when it says "Storpenishjelm" or whatever... 
I think they were supposed to be submarine / sub-class names?
Let me check the last time I was on a submarine.
(no pointing out the whole desk diver thing...  )

Anyway, being a bit cheeky but respectfully I think this could be a good change.
Carry on!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redhed18 said:


> That looks beautiful...
> but what are everyone's thoughts on printing model names on the dial?
> 
> My own thoughts are the watches are better off without them.
> ...


God how I love unsolicited design input...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I've seen threads started by guys who hate seeing the brand's logo and/or name on the dial.

Other threads from guys who don't like to see the depth text or any other verbiage.

Of course, someone always hates the hands, or thinks the minute markers are too long / too short, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

The bezel's too wide. The lugs too long. This. That. The other thing.

If we removed everything that anyone found objectionable, there wouldn't be any watch at all.

I'm so over it.

I'll lead the design process, because I risked everything and then some to start this business, and so far, I seem to be making pretty decent decisions with it.

If I want design input, I'll ask for it. Unless and until I do, assume I don't.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

So, you’re saying there’s a chance...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I like some text on a dial. I mean not a novel, like Ginault, but I've never been a fan of sterile dials, either.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Can I get that in blurple?


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

captainmorbid said:


> Can I get that in blurple?
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Or whilver?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> Can I get that in blurple?
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk





MikeyT said:


> Or whilver?


Oh, we just tossing out weird @ss color names now?

How about a Fulvous dial with Falu applied indices? Or some combo of Mikado and Smaragdine(Doc and or Rusty might know of this one, it was apparently a Pantone color of the year in 2013, weird award).

And yes, I googled this crap.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> I like some text on a dial. I mean not a novel, like Ginault Rolex, but I've never been a fan of sterile dials, either.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

Avo said:


> mconlonx said:
> 
> 
> > I like some text on a dial. I mean not a novel, like Ginault Rolex Tudor, but I've never been a fan of sterile dials, either.
> ...


Fixed it for _*you.*_








(Not mine, just something I saved from the f2 meme thread.)


----------



## redhed18 (Mar 23, 2013)

Oh yeah... you... now I remember


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Either. We have some. He has some.
> 
> I just added the inventory for that one, plus the Renegade, the Santa Cruz, and the Barracuda Brown to our website, and made them available for purchase. Official announcement to be coming in an email to our newsletter subscribers later this week.


Photo gallery for the Santa Cruz is strong. Nice shots on the different bracelets/leather.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Long shot here... does anyone have a photo of Holland and Barracuda Brown together?


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> ...it was apparently a Pantone color of the year in 2013, weird award...


There were some pretty funny parodies of the Pantone color of the year earlier in 2020.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Oh, we just tossing out weird @ss color names now?
> 
> How about a Fulvous dial with Falu applied indices? Or some combo of Mikado and Smaragdine(Doc and or Rusty might know of this one, it was apparently a Pantone color of the year in 2013, weird award).
> 
> And yes, I googled this crap.


Now you're talking.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redhed18 said:


> Oh yeah... you... now I remember


Nothing personal, my friend, just how I see things. As a guiding design philosophy, I strive for balance.

Cluttering up the dial and making a sterile dial are just two extreme, and unbalanced solutions to something most don't see as a real problem.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Long shot here... does anyone have a photo of Holland and Barracuda Brown together?


Their bezels are not the same color, if that's what you're wondering.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of Amphions, there's a no-date Modern Black on fleabay right now (not my listing):









Limited Edition NTH "Amphion - Modern" Sub-Style Dive Watch - No Date - Rare | eBay


This a very rare and hard to find NTH Amphion sub-style dive watch with “modern” (silver - non gilt) hands and indices. Watch Details Water resistance: 300m. Case size: 40mm.



www.ebay.com


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Their bezels are not the same color, if that's what you're wondering.


Thanks. I do know that much. I'm curious how the bezels compare. Was hesitant to mention it for fear of dragging the thread into a discussion of another color.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Kiger Tuesday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Speaking of Amphions, there's a no-date Modern Black on fleabay right now (not my listing):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you know my weakness for Amphions my brother!!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Speaking of Amphions, there's a no-date Modern Black on fleabay right now (not my listing):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dang, I have been wanting one of these for a while. 
Cant do it right now but still hoping you make this again in the future.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

I couldn't find any YouTube reviews of the excellent Lew & Huey Phantom - so I decided to make one myself!


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

went with a nato for the Skipjack today.


----------



## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Kiger Tuesday
> View attachment 15634204
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Kiger Tuesday here too!









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

PowerChucker said:


> went with a nato for the Skipjack today.
> View attachment 15634249


Loving that rocket!! ⌚🚀


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Thanks. I do know that much. I'm curious how the bezels compare. Was hesitant to mention it for fear of dragging the thread into a discussion of another color.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why are you asking? Is it merely out of curiosity, or are you hatching some sort of plan?

The Barracuda's is a more neutral shade of brown, with more or less even proportions of red and green. The lume is C3.

The Holland's is a little darker, and more of a reddish brown, or burgundy, almost purple in some lights. The lume is BG W9.

The difference is subtle. Even if you had a pic of them side by side, you might not be able to detect the difference in an image. It's only when you have both in hand that the difference becomes noticeable.

Just to prove the point - those "one-off" bezel inserts on the website, with burgundy base color and C3 lume were the result of a mix-up by our vendor, the last time we made the Barracuda Brown, resulting in the watches being assembled with the wrong color insert.

No one on their team noticed it. It was only when Dan got them in hand here, and he was able to compare them side-by-side, that we picked up on it. They had to remake all the inserts and send them to us for Dan to swap them out.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

bolts40 said:


> Kiger Tuesday here too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bracelet swapped?

Here, three.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Commando Tuesday


----------



## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

3WR said:


> Bracelet swapped?
> 
> Here, three.
> 
> ...


Yes, Strapcode Super-O. Fits well and swapped out their clasp for the NTH clasp.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

bolts40 said:


> Yes, Strapcode Super-O. Fits well and swapped out their clasp for the NTH clasp.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


do you have a link to the correct Strapcode?


----------



## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

PowerChucker said:


> do you have a link to the correct Strapcode?











MiLTAT 20mm Metal Watch Band for Seiko Alpinist SARB017, Super-O Screw-Links | Amazon.com


Buy MiLTAT 20mm Metal Watch Band for Seiko Alpinist SARB017, Super-O Screw-Links and other Watch Bands at Amazon.com. Our wide selection is eligible for free shipping and free returns.



www.amazon.com





Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

bolts40 said:


> MiLTAT 20mm Metal Watch Band for Seiko Alpinist SARB017, Super-O Screw-Links | Amazon.com
> 
> 
> Buy MiLTAT 20mm Metal Watch Band for Seiko Alpinist SARB017, Super-O Screw-Links and other Watch Bands at Amazon.com. Our wide selection is eligible for free shipping and free returns.
> ...


Thank you very much!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I saw a thread in the public forum, something like "Do people like discounts?"

The other day I was talking about convenience.

Just now, in my FB feed, I saw this...









Warren Buffett Says Discounts Are for Dummies Even During a Pandemic


Here are three things customers value more than a low price even (especially) during a pandemic.




www.inc.com


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I saw a thread in the public forum, something like "Do people like discounts?"
> 
> The other day I was talking about convenience.
> 
> ...


My first thought was "shut up you f***ing billionaire." 
My second thought was "s***, this makes sense."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> My first thought was "shut up you f***ing billionaire."
> My second thought was "s***, this makes sense."


I don't particularly care for Buffett either, but it's hard to argue with his business acumen.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I don't particularly care for Buffet either, but it's hard to argue with his business acumen.


I prefer to order from the menu too.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I prefer to order from the menu too.
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Well plaid.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Well plaid.


This guy is well plaid.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Why are you asking? Is it merely out of curiosity, or are you hatching some sort of plan?
> 
> The Barracuda's is a more neutral shade of brown, with more or less even proportions of red and green. The lume is C3.
> 
> ...


Hatching a plan sounds way more intriguing than the boring truth. Considering a bezel swap.

Thanks for the brown notes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

I just think it's cool that it does this...








Carry on.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Hatching a plan sounds way more intriguing than the boring truth. Considering a bezel swap.
> 
> Thanks for the brown notes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What bezel to what model?

If you're thinking about replacing the Barracuda Brown bezel with the Holland's, I can tell you based on the mix-up we had that they don't look right together. The browns aren't close enough to be a match, and not far apart enough to be seen as complementary.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

3-1-1 said:


> I just think it's cool that it does this...
> View attachment 15636004
> 
> Carry on.


Is that the Nth Transformer model? Having difficulty finding it on Doc's site... didn't realise he was offering one... good for storage!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

NTH Kiger...very nice! Sold my Amphion Vintage Gilt-date. Regretted it. Bought this. My Barracuda Vintage Black arrives today!









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

bolts40 said:


> NTH Kiger...very nice! Sold my Amphion Vintage Gilt-date. Regretted it. Bought this. My Barracuda Vintage Black arrives today!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got my sweatshirt on here...55* here in Florida!

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Double fisting NTHs










Took delivery of third NTH this morning. Unfortunately I can't fit 3 on my wrist so I will have to do with wearing just the two!


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Liking this one a lot.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Love those Nackens. 

The only drawback to my Ghost is the lack of date window!


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

RotorRonin said:


> Love those Nackens.
> 
> The only drawback to my Ghost is the lack of date window!


I've enjoyed the pics of your ghost! Great work. A watch I would have never considered until I saw your pics.

I'm not usually a date guy, but this works really well.

The textured dial... I wasn't too sure about it when looking at all of the closeup pics online. But on the wrist it's great!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Rockin' the Scorpéne Commando today.










I've considered a few other models - only got rid of the Amphion Commando to fund purchase of the Scorpéne, so another Amphion or the Kiger is always a possibility. Was mighty tempted by a watch with snowflake hands, so a Nacken Modern or especially the Barracuda Polar were never far from thought.

But I also got into modding Vostoks, so...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

A true LE, even by NTH standards.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Pablo.Flox said:


> Double fisting NTHs
> 
> View attachment 15637611
> 
> ...


You've got a second arm ain't ya?  room for two more at least...

Actually, just thinking outside the box.... two ankles as well... just need to size 'em right
Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> My next door neighbor has a black German Sheppard puppy thats named Odin. (he loves to play with our puppy), He Reminds me of watches every time I hear his name lol.
> I told my wife that the neighbors dog and a watch from a brand I own have the same name, she said " youre a nerd".


That kind of reply sounds very familiar to me...


----------



## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

Got my Blue Thresher the other day. Sized the bracelet and today is the first full day on the wrist. Feels great! Loved the look in the photos (hence ordered) but like it even more on my wrist.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

GP_Photography said:


> Got my Blue Thresher the other day. Sized the bracelet and today is the first full day on the wrist. Feels great! Loved the look in the photos (hence ordered) but like it even more on my wrist.


With your handle I expect more from you. What no pics? Lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> With your handle I expect more from you. What no pics? Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

So I'm looking at this thinking... somethings just not quite right  just in from the Doc, I'm struggling to put my finger on it... what is wrong here... and then, bingo...I got it...Doc, the damn bezel is out of alignment! What the hell!

So I whack it on the Santa Cruz... damn it's still out...Docs sent me a dodgy bezel! 

See compare it to the original! I'm also thinking it don't really gel with the Cruz.... sigh, will have to wait until next week when the Tikuna is scheduled to touch down here..Downunder!

Waiting...























Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

GP_Photography said:


> That kind of reply sounds very familiar to me...


Im not sure what youre saying here, but this is Odin who sticks his head under our fence to play with our dog. and my wife will tell you how much a watch nerd i am.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Barracuda Brown and a slice of BBQ.










We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Barracuda Brown and a slice of BBQ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you go to Crust Pizza yet? and that Cuda is sexy!


----------



## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

New Barracuda!









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Did you go to Crust Pizza yet? and that Cuda is sexy!


I've barely left my house in the last month, much less my town.

It's Vic & Dean's, which happens to be next to our Vet's, where I am to get this little elf checked out.










We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I've barely left my house in the last month, much less my town.
> 
> It's Vic & Dean's, which happens to be next to our Vet's, where I am to get this little elf checked out.
> 
> ...


Thats a handsome Pup!


----------



## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)




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## SethBullock (Feb 19, 2017)

Beautiful watches, guys. I think a white Swiftsure is likely my next purchase.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Thats a handsome Pup!


Everyone says so, so it must be true.

I've never taken him for a walk and not had someone remark at how handsome he is.

He's very much an a-hole right now, though.

This graphic is scary accurate...


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

307 said:


> View attachment 15639657


Your Skippy looks great on Green! I have to buy some more straps! I need some color in my life.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Everyone says so, so it must be true.
> 
> I've never taken him for a walk and not had someone remark at how handsome he is.
> 
> ...


Yeah my little Monster is 13 months old, and your graphic is dead on accurate!


----------



## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> With your handle I expect more from you. What no pics? Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yeah, I will find some time to breakout the tripod and macro lenses soon enough


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In case any of you weren't paying attention to the Atticus thread, the pre-order of the Adventure series approaches...



Atticus Adventure Series Pre-order Info


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Don’t mind me, I’m just checking my flag


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Been gone a while. Just checking in.

Also... I did a thing a couple weeks ago:










Was browsing through the Omega Boutique while doing some last minute holiday shopping. AD mentioned that it was his last 1863 sammich, and that it was all 3861/3863 from here on out. Had to go for it. Don't judge.

This is maybe the only thing that could get the AVG off my wrist. I suspect that after the honeymoon, they'll be sharing regular wrist time.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Coriolanus said:


> Been gone a while. Just checking in.
> 
> Also... I did a thing a couple weeks ago:
> 
> ...


Its been my radar for a while like the doxa. But I look forward to micros like NTH to create something more to my "speed " (pun).

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> What bezel to what model?
> 
> If you're thinking about replacing the Barracuda Brown bezel with the Holland's, I can tell you based on the mix-up we had that they don't look right together. The browns aren't close enough to be a match, and not far apart enough to be seen as complementary.


This but with a Barracuda bezel. Really like the Dolphin dial/hands. Think I'd prefer a warmer bezel. To my eye, the dial darkens slightly towards the edges with some subtle tan/brown tones. So thought a brown bezel might work well.

I'd prefer bezel lume to still match dial lume, but oh well. If you find any lume mix-ups in the latest Barracuda batch, I'd be interested.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> This but with a Barracuda bezel. Really like the Dolphin dial/hands. Think I'd prefer a warmer bezel. To my eye, the dial darkens slightly towards the edges with some subtle tan/brown tones. So thought a brown bezel might work well.
> 
> I'd prefer bezel lume to still match dial lume, but oh well. If you find any lume mix-ups in the latest Barracuda batch, I'd be interested.
> 
> ...


"NOT REAL"

Shake muh head...

I'd never even contemplated that combo. And it's not just your eye. The dial does darken at the perimeter, by design.

Given the neutrality of the Dolphin's dial color, I don't see any obvious problems with putting the Holland's bezel insert next to it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Been gone a while. Just checking in.
> 
> Also... I did a thing a couple weeks ago:
> 
> ...


Congrats on the pickup, assuming it's something you'd been lusting after.

As opposed to you being the sort of straight up baller who walks into an AD and walks out with a Speedy completely by accident.


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)

Nacken ...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Congrats on the pickup, assuming it's something you'd been lusting after.
> 
> As opposed to you being the sort of straight up baller who walks into an AD and walks out with a Speedy completely by accident.


I've wanted one ever since I first saw it in person, about 7 years ago. But honestly, wasn't planning to buy that day. I wasn't even tracking that the 3861 was about to come out. That's what put me over the top.

This year has been a rollercoaster for me in a lot of ways. Obviously, there's the big picture stuff that we're all dealing with. But closer to home, my grandmother passed away ( I suspect to COVID, but it was early on and the nursing home didn't do any testing), my mother almost died and is still hospitalized after two months, awaiting heart surgery. She spent Thanksgiving in the ICU. I call her every day, but the hospital won't even allow visitors right now. I had to put my dog down, and I just had surgery to repair a hernia.

But good things have happened too. We've been doing well financially (which I'm extremely grateful for) and my wife told me on Christmas morning that she's pregnant with our second. Buying this watch fits into all of this 2020 craziness somehow. I know nobody "needs" an expensive watch, but maybe I just "needed" it. One way or another, I didn't go there planning to buy it, but it felt right so I did it and I haven't regretted it.

Cheers to everyone in this forum. I hope your 2021 is spectacular.


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> .....Cheers to everyone in this forum. I hope your 2021 is spectacular.


Cheers to you, sir!! Best to you in the new year!!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 15642947


Looks good on khaki. I tried a khaki single pass on my white Swiftsure, not sure if it was due to the increased diameter and height, but it didn't look right.


----------



## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

We don't get much snow in Ireland, but this weekend I was on a hike in the mountains which were covered in snow. Had to get a pic of my Naken. Snow flake hands and weather to match.


----------



## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Pablo.Flox said:


> We don't get much snow in Ireland, but this weekend I was on a hike in the mountains which were covered in snow. Had to get a pic of my Naken. Snow flake hands and weather to match.
> 
> View attachment 15643241


Niiiiiiice!


----------



## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Finally was able to get my own orange DevilRay, it was seeing photos of this watch (years ago) that had me smitten.

Many nights had been spent looking at photos of this watch so to finally be in a position to get one in next to new condition, I am very happy and feel very lucky to have it, this is a grail piece for me and will not be leaving the collection for a very long time (if at all)


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Monday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## sculldogg86 (Feb 14, 2017)

As @docvail previously alluded to, he and Dan created this DLC version of the Santa Fe for me. They fortunately had the spare parts from what was a very limited run of the original Santa Fe, and the DLC case from the current run.

I received the watch yesterday, and after two or so years of being an NTH Stan on social media, I have my first NTH watch. I am very impressed by the quality. Some of my random thought positives about the watch:


The finishing is top notch, the polishing of the case edges looks amazing
The proportions of the case are pretty much perfect for my smaller size (6.75") wrist
Love the half links on the bracelet which allows for perfect fit to the wrist
Lume looks incredible, and the lumed signed crown is a nice touch
Very comfortable on wrist
Good bezel action, no play on bezel and winding is also a breeze
9015 movement running very smoothly

With regards to the customer service:


Very happy we could agree a price for essentially a customised model, especially when this is not something NTH does, nor are they looking to do regularly. Chris was very patient as we talked it through.
Communication from Chris was superb (and dry sense of humour suited me as a Scotsman)
Fast delivery from US to UK given the time of year and the current situation. Chris in contact during whole process to advise on customs etc.
Dan the watchmaker managed to fit in the assembly during his hectic Xmas schedule, which is appreciated.
I like the packaging with the watch and Chris kindly included a UV torch so I can show off the lume

All in all, I love the watch and while it's my first NTH, it certainly won't be my last. 












































Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

^I'm a big fan of your new night diver homage!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sculldogg86 (Feb 14, 2017)

Kinesis said:


> ^I'm a big fan of your new night diver homage!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice! I did order a PVD jubilee (ebay) to complete the homagery to the 980.031 but the bracelet fits neither my wrist size nor does it fit the case of the watch .

If you know of any sources to get one that fits in PVD - I would be obliged. Chris said that SKX013 bracelets fit, but I have been unable to find a PVD jubilee for SKX013.


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

sculldogg86 said:


> Very nice! I did order a PVD jubilee (ebay) to complete the homagery to the 980.031 but the bracelet fits neither my wrist size nor does it fit the case of the watch .
> 
> If you know of any sources to get one that fits in PVD - I would be obliged. Chris said that SKX013 bracelets fit, but I have been unable to find a PVD jubilee for SKX013.


The bracelet on my watch is in fact a strapcode for skx013. It was not a good fit, but with a "good bit" of dremel grinding to endlinks it worked. I'd recommend looking for one with endlinks designed for Rolex sub case after my experience. I can't wait for Chris to read that you are in search of a jubilee for this great watch, it will fulfill his heart.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sculldogg86 (Feb 14, 2017)

Kinesis said:


> The bracelet on my watch is in fact a strapcode for skx013. It was not a good fit, but with a "good bit" of dremel grinding to endlinks it worked. I'd recommend looking for one with endlinks designed for Rolex sub case after my experience. I can't wait for Chris to read that you are in search of a jubilee for this great watch, it will fulfill his heart.


Oh he knows! Haha


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Kiger Tuesday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My heart is full enough already, thank you very much.

It's full of rage, and cholesterol, but that's neither here nor there.

As for the SKX013 bracelets....

When we got the prototypes of the original Subs in 2016, the bracelets were completely wrong. Instead of tapered oysters, they sent me un-tapered presidents, apparently with un-breakable epoxy on the screw threads, because I absolutely destroyed them trying to get any of the links out.

So, I ordered a bunch of 013 bracelets from Strapcode, which did fit, easily, without any modification. But, again, they were oysters, not jubilees, and their end-links' upper surfaces were a good bit recessed below the surface of the lugs, so not quite a perfect fit.

Of course, I can't guarantee whether or not any aftermarket bracelet will fit, but I do believe others have found that the bracelets meant for 38mm Seiko SARB cases will also fit, albeit, perhaps not perfectly. 

I'll let you in on a little secret, something that I was surprised to learn - very often, the mid-case diameter isn't uniform. We might design a case to be 40mm across, in every direction, but for production, the radius between the lugs could be less than 20 (or possibly more, I suppose), making the diameter from 12 to 6 less than 40 (or more, as the case may be). 

In the case of the Subs, I'm pretty sure the 12-6 diameter is actually 39mm, not 40, making the central cylinder slightly oblong. Don't ask me why this would be so. I don't know, because I never asked, because I don't need to know, as long as all our parts fit as they should.

But, that may help explain why a bracelet for a 38mm case could be made to fit the 40mm Subs, especially if the Seiko case is the opposite - broader from 12 to 6 than it is from 3 to 9. Perhaps the surface between the lugs is more or less a good, if not perfect match, making the bracelets fairly interchangeable.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested - we had a Scorpène White we sent for photography, and the underside of the lugs got a wee bit scratched during bracelet swaps. I just added it to the Nearly New section on the site. Other than those scratches under the lugs, it's a pristine new piece, and we can assemble it with either the BOR or the Oyster bracelet.









Scorpène - White - Nearly New


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com


----------



## SethBullock (Feb 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> For anyone interested - we had a Scorpène White we sent for photography, and the underside of the lugs got a wee bit scratched during bracelet swaps. I just added it to the Nearly New section on the site. Other than those scratches under the lugs, it's a pristine new piece, and we can assemble it with either the BOR or the Oyster bracelet.


Got an ETA on the nearly new Swiftsure-White No Date?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Cousins!


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

'Your NTH watches order has shipped'


Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

The Thresher photos begin...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Lets see those Thresher pics!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

cghorr01 said:


> 'Your NTH watches order has shipped'
> 
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Qty? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

3WR said:


> Qty?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just one LOL
With the upcoming availability of building some from spare parts there very well may be another. I do have some things being checked on however that may ultimately result in a large qty!

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

GP_Photography said:


> The Thresher photos begin...
> 
> View attachment 15647009
> 
> ...


Noice!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Some "Glamour Shots" of my Vintage Gilt today. (and by "Glamour" I mean zoomed in pics from my iphone, trying to be artsy, lol)


----------



## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)




----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

307 said:


> View attachment 15648436


This really fuels my addiction for MilSubs.. I need one of these now too.. ugh it never ends.


----------



## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

more Thresher


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just got 5 watches back, after being out on loan for photography, for what felt like a loooooonnnnggggg time. Once again, my collection is all back together, in one place. I figured I'd do a SOTC (state of the collection) post, with some thoughts, and contemplations.

For anyone who's ever wondered how many watches I have, which ones, why, and how they're organized, here goes...

(And pardon the craptastic photos. Showing off my collection is not what this is about...)










First off, the case holds 24, obviously. And there are 3 empty spots, which I'm not necessarily looking to fill.

Right off the bat, whether I own 24, or 21, or even 20, that's just too many, for me, I think, _UNLESS_ I consider them all "keepers", for whatever reason. I feel like I'm really close, but there are still a few moves I'm thinking of making.

As far as organization goes, it's pretty straight-forward, my eight most-worn/favorite 40mm Subs in the front row. The other 2 Subs and the v.2 Tropics prototypes in the middle row, 3 DevilRays, 2 Lew & Hueys, and 2 Seikos in the top row.

For the front row, I basically organize them black-color-black-color-black-color. The ones in the front row are the ones I tend to wear most often. Positioning in the other two rows has no bearing on how often any of the other watches get worn.

When choosing a watch to wear, I usually look for something that matches the clothes I'm wearing, more or less, and I try to pull something I haven't worn in a while, but which will also be appropriate for whatever I'm doing that day, not that I frequently do anything which should have any bearing.

From the top left...










My white Cerberus has been modded with the orange rehaut from the blue-dialed version. I realized after mass production that this was the color combo we should have done. Since it's a one-of-a-kind, as far as I know, I don't think I'd ever sell it, even though I seldom wear it. In the back of my mind, I might make something similar one day, and I'll want it available for reference.

The blue Spectre 2, no-date, with orange seconds hand is, in my opinion, the best version of all the Spectres. I picked it up used from a guy on Facebook last year. It doesn't get worn much, but it's a fun watch, and fun to look at. Both my sons like it, so I figure I'll give it to one or the other eventually, which was sort of my plan when I bought it. So, it, too, seems like a keeper (for now).










Next up, the DevilRays.

The black is a v.1. The other two are v.2's. I had these same 3 colors of the v.1's, but sold the white and the blue when we had the v.2's in production.

I'd like to sell the black v.2, also. It's currently the only Swiss movement in my collection, with the STP1-11 inside. It runs fine, but I think I'd like my collection to be 100% Japanese movements, mostly because I just don't want to think about future maintenance, ever, but also because I feel like I should practice what I preach, vis-a-vis my movement preferences as a manufacturer.

I already have its replacement, a black v.2, still sitting in its travel case on the shelf in my office.

Here's the other thing - I've had these three v.2's since July, and I haven't sized the bracelet on any of them yet. So the black and the white have never been worn, and the blue has only been worn because I put it on that strap.

I haven't worn the black v.2 because I still have the v.1, and that silicone strap from Seiko is crazy-comfortable. But why haven't I sized the bracelet and worn the white?

Part of it is that I've come to hate screwing around with sizing and changing bracelets, so it's just plain old procrastination. Part of it is that I have too damned many watches to choose from. Part of it may be that as much as I love how this watch looks, I just don't seem to get along well with most white-faced watches.

So...I'm thinking that one of the blacks has to go, either the v.1 or the v.2, and eventually, probably the white, too.










Seiko SBDC053 and a steel Samurai on a fitted Crafter Blue strap. I bought both of these together, in a too-good-to-pass-up deal from an AD in NY. For what I paid, I figured I couldn't possibly lose money if I ever decide to sell either or both.

I've worn them both, probably a half dozen times each. I don't really love either of them, for various reasons. I prefer no-date watches, I don't like either handset, and I think both bezel inserts are aluminum. I don't mind the lower-beat movements in them (6r15 / NE15 in the SBDC, 4r35 / NH35 in the Samurai). I got both because I think both have really interesting case designs, and figured I might want to have them on hand for reference if I ever want to do something similar.

The SBDC wears really well, despite its somewhat porky dimensions (42.5mm diameter, 50mm lug length, and 14mm thickness). It really doesn't seem that large, and is very comfortable on another of those silicone straps from Seiko.

I have the bracelet for the Samurai, but it's still in the plastic-wrap, in the box. The Samurai feels much bigger, and is less comfortable. It may have something to do with the Crafter Blue strap, which is good quality, but just a tad on the stiff side, and it seems I can't get a good fit. It's either one hole too tight or one hole too loose on my wrist.

Still, unless and until I decide I don't need them around for reference, both their positions are safe, for now.










V.2 Tropics prototypes.

I had 2 of the v.1 Tropics, a Champagne Antilles and a Mint Azores, but sold them both within the last few months, once I decided to produce the v.2's. I wear these protos on the rubber strap because the bracelet samples won't fit these v.1 cases.

The v.2 dials are jammed into the v.1 prototype cases, so tight that the bezels can't be turned. Once we get the new v.2's in, I'll probably grab one (or two) of those, and hand these back over to Dan for use as parts donors.

When people ask how many watches I have, I'm honestly not sure if I should count prototypes or not, when I know I don't plan to keep them. So, in my mind, these may be sitting in my case, but they're not really "part of the collection".










The Nazario Azzurro and The Vanguard...

John Keil from Watch Gauge says this Nazario is one of, if not the best-looking watch I've ever made. I waffled on whether or not I wanted one when we first got them in. My wife loved it. I thought I loved it, but for some reason, I didn't keep one, and instead shipped them all to Watch Gauge.

Then I changed my mind a few months later, and told him to send me one. It gets worn here and there, but I'm just not wearing red-white-and-blue enough that it would get the obvious nod when I go to pull a watch out of the case. So, it'll likely be sold, eventually.

Kaj from Serious Watches _LOVES_ the Vanguard. I personally think it's a solid design, which, along with the Tikuna, was somewhat meant to be the first step in a new direction for the brand, towards more original designs, fewer homages. The main design elements echo the DevilRay, the Cerberus, and the Orthos.

But here again - my wife loved it, and I thought I loved it, but I just wasn't sure I wanted it in the collection. After wavering a while, I gave it a spot, but it's basically sitting there waiting on me to wear the one shirt I own that it perfectly complements, which makes me think it, too, will eventually be moved on.










Next to the Cerberus, the Scorpène Black has been in my collection the longest. That's actually one of the original 8 Subs prototypes, and it's been through hell (which, with my habits, just means I never put thread-locker on the bracelet screws until after the 3rd time it went flying off my wrist).

There's just something about it. It completely cured my lust for a Sinn 857 (mostly, I think). TRUE STORY - when I sent it off for photography, and on Whirled Tour with the Fanmen, I missed it so much I actually started shopping for mod parts, thinking I could make myself something just like it. Thankfully, I snapped to the realization - "You idiot! You already have one! It's just out on loan. Calm your tits!"

So...if black Scorpène is good, blue is also good, which is why those bros are sitting next to each other. Both make their way into regular rotation.

What's there to say about the Renegade? It was inspired by one single image of a weathered Tudor Snowflake Sub, an image that served as a reference for the entire 40mm Subs range, and helped launch NTH.

The Näcken Modern Blue is also a prototype, sort of. It was cobbled together from a production case and a one-off dial and bezel insert my vendors made before we approved them for mass production. It's now on a v.2 bracelet, so it's become sort of a Frankenwatch. I don't wear it as much as I used to, but due to its versatility, it still gets worn a good bit.

For now, I think all four of these are keepers, unless I get tired of any of them, or decide to update to a newer version (I'm just thinking about if we change the color of the Modern Blue's dial to be a closer match to the bezel, like the Odin Blue).










Barracuda Vintage Black and the Barracuda Brown are definite keepers. They're not going anywhere.

No, I don't have a lot of ensembles in my wardrobe which call for a brown watch to be worn, but piss off, I love this watch, so it's staying. I will fight you if you try to take it from me. It's quirky cool, like a hot girl that reads comic books. Shush. She doesn't know how sexy she is.

That leaves the Odin Black and the Odin Blue.

I wanted a vintage Omega Seamaster 300, which is basically unobtainium, or a Seamaster Professional ref. 2254.50 (which would be perfect without the stupid HEV knob at 10, and with a steel bezel insert), but the Odins have more or less satisfied my lust for either. They both get into the rotation fairly regularly, though not as much as some of the others, so the jury on whether or not either is a keeper is still out.

What else?

Well...I sent the Swiftsure I'd been wearing on a rubber strap to Rusty, so he could try it out. Here it is, on his furry wrist...










It's since been moved on to another of the Fanmen, for the same reason.

I didn't think I wanted a 2K1 when I first got them in, but wearing one for a while (especially on that strap) has me thinking I might, if only to be able to show it off at GTG's, and on the very rare occasion I feel like offending someone by wearing what many would consider to be an obscenely large watch.

I still don't know which 2K1 I like best, though, so we'll see if any of them make their way into the case. I'm thinking maybe a Thresher, but that white Swiftsure also calls to me. Then again, the black Swiftsure also has its allure...

And, this just came in, purchased from that WeirdGuy (I'm not calling him weird, that's his user name), who was a regular in this thread not too long ago...










I know, I know...you've got questions...

"Chris, why are you buying your own watches used, and why isn't it in the case with the others?"

Okay...first, when we have a new release coming in, my first thought is SELLING watches, not putting more into my own collection. When a model is in demand, and my retailers want them, I sell them, because this is a business (or at least, it's supposed to be), after all.

Second, I bought it thinking I'd most likely add it to the Nearly New section on the website, but in the back of my mind, there was also the thought that I might want it for myself.

You see, when we got these in, we pulled one out to be a photo sample. I wasn't sure if I'd keep it, or sell it as Nearly New. Much like some other designs, my wife loves it, and I think I love it, but I'm just not sure I love it enough that I'd wear it often enough to justify giving it a spot in my case.

As I was in Dan's shop, separating the photo samples, and telling Dan all this, he interrupted, "I'll take it!"

I mean...it's Dan. How can I say no? Especially when I wasn't convinced I wanted it. I mean, it's white. I don't really do white. The only white dial in my collection that's stood the test of time is the Cerberus, and it barely ever gets worn (partly because the crown is hard to pull out).

If it went with anything in my wardrobe, it'd be in the case already. That's part of the problem. I don't know what I'd wear that would say to me, "Do it. Grab the Polar. It's his day."

So, I let Dan take the photo sample.

In the meantime, you may remember he (WeirdGuy) opened the case to see if the 2K1 and 40mm Subs dials were the same size (they're not). When I saw he was selling it, I figured it'd be a good buy, for me, because I own the company. I had him send it to Dan to make sure everything was kosher.

So...for now, I haven't sized the bracelet, and it's still sitting in the box, at the corner of my desk, taunting me with albino temptation.

For those not keeping score...

There are currently 21 watches in the case, and 3 outside of it: the v.2 DevilRay Black, waiting on me to sell the v.1; the Barracuda Polar; and possibly a Swiftsure or Thresher, for a total collection of 24 (sort of, kind of, depending on how you count what's "in the collection").

As I stipulated earlier, that's just too damned many, for me, considering I only wear a watch for a few hours at a time, and only a few days per week, if that.

Of those 24...

The four v.2 Tropics protos are definitely coming out, once the production pieces are in, come March or April. I'm not positive, but I'm thinking I'll grab _ONE_ of the v.2 Tropics, and call it a day. That'll get me down to 21.

Unless I grab two, in which case, 22. But I'm really trying to limit myself to just one.

The black v.1 DevilRay is "for sale", but I haven't gotten around to posting it up anywhere. Either it or the v.2 _MUST_ go. That'll get me to 20.

I should probably bite the bullet, and sell the v.2 DevilRay white, the Nazario, and the Vanguard. I'm not really in any rush, but eventually, I'll get around to it, and I'll be down to 17.

I probably won't put the Barracuda Polar into the case. I think it's a great design and color scheme, but it's just not for me. If we do a GTG, Dan will be there with his, if anyone wants to see it. Now we're down to 16.

I probably won't add a 2K1, not because they're too big for me, but because I'm probably going to be updating the 40mm Subs case to be a shrunk-down version of the 2K1's, and I'll probably be adding one or more of those to the collection. If anyone wants to know what a 2K1 looks like, and I don't have one, I can just show them a v.2 40mm Sub, and tell them the 2K1's are the same, but bigger.

Until I do add a v.2 Sub, that brings me down to 15, but we just opened up a whole other can of worms...

A new 40mm Subs case would make the entire first row of my collection "obsolete". What if I like the new case better? I might. I'm going to want to replace all of those 40mm Subs with their updated versions, assuming we make updated versions of all of them.

All of those moves to update to the new case would be one-in-one-out, unless we also come up with new versions (which we no doubt will), and I want to add some of those to the collection (which is a distinct possibility).

Where were we? 15? Awesome. I was hoping to get down to 12, but now we're headed in the opposite direction...

So...that's the SOTC, for now.

If any of you think you see a path to me having a smaller collection, let me know.


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## wrencher13 (Oct 11, 2019)

Just joined the NTH family. I picked up a Nacken black with date. Date window between 4 and 5. I’m assume it a early version? good conditio. Quite happy.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

wrencher13 said:


> Just joined the NTH family. I picked up a Nacken black with date. Date window between 4 and 5. I'm assume it a early version? good conditio. Quite happy.


Pics or it didn't happen.

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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

docvail said:


> I just got 5 watches back, after being out on loan for photography, for what felt like a loooooonnnnggggg time. Once again, my collection is all back together, in one place. I figured I'd to a SOTC (state of the collection) post, with some thoughts, and contemplations.
> 
> For anyone who's ever wondered how many watches I have, which ones, why, and how they're organized, here goes...
> 
> ...


Wow! WoT for sure! Love it!

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wrencher13 said:


> Just joined the NTH family. I picked up a Nacken black with date. Date window between 4 and 5. I'm assume it a early version? good conditio. Quite happy.


Yep. First batch of production.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> I just got 5 watches back, after being out on loan for photography, for what felt like a loooooonnnnggggg time. Once again, my collection is all back together, in one place. I figured I'd to a SOTC (state of the collection) post, with some thoughts, and contemplations.
> 
> For anyone who's ever wondered how many watches I have, which ones, why, and how they're organized, here goes...
> 
> ...


I think your current size collection is perfect. Mine is the same size. It's pandemic time and life is boring. We need more watches to look at and rotate! But ya'll that have more than 25? What's the matter with you?

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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

New member of the collection arrived this week, does a great job at drawing attention away from my hairy monkey arms








Or maybe...... drawing attention to my hairy monkey arms?


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> I just got 5 watches back, after being out on loan for photography, for what felt like a loooooonnnnggggg time. Once again, my collection is all back together, in one place. I figured I'd do a SOTC (state of the collection) post, with some thoughts, and contemplations.
> 
> For anyone who's ever wondered how many watches I have, which ones, why, and how they're organized, here goes...
> 
> ...


 Wow Doc, it saddens my heart to hear how little love you have for those devilrays, maybe this photo of mine out in the sun will encourage you to size up that white dial's bracelet and take him out for the day.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> Wow Doc, it saddens my heart to hear how little love you have for those devilrays, maybe this photo of mine out in the sun will encourage you to size up that white dial's bracelet and take him out for the day.
> View attachment 15649442


I love the DR's, just not sure I love the white, even though I wore my white v.1 a good bit. Maybe I'd wear the v.2 more if I sized the bracelet, and got rid of some other watches.

I kind of miss the v.1 white, with it's greener C5 lume. Some guys complained about the C5 on the v.1 black and white, but I thought it added an extra dimension of color, as opposed to stark white.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm probably going to be updating the 40mm Subs case to be a shrunk-down version of the 2K1's,


What? What? (head does quick double take)
Seems like this nugget slipped thru with little discussion. Interesting for sure.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

So what's the best part about getting a second Nth for ones collection? My lazy trait is well catered for...Tikuna landed today at last... whipped the OEM bracelet straight off and whacked on the previously sized same OEM Santa Cruz bracelet! Voila! No mucking around removing links and loctiting. Instant changeover. Of course it helps that the Cruz is on a BoR! Leave the Tikuna bracelet in shrink wrap.

Some shots including mandatory artzy one with possible bezel upgrade and lume shot.































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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Hey Doc, where did you get the 24 watch box and was it super hexy in price...sadly I could easily fill two of them... I think I may have a problem.

All I can say is luckily you ain't ever gunna make Bronzo's... cause then I'd seriously be in trouble

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> What? What? (head does quick double take)
> Seems like this nugget slipped thru with little discussion. Interesting for sure.


Nah, you probably just missed the discussion a good while back. Around the time of the 2K1s release.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Something about the blue NTH's just calls for the BoR.


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> I love the DR's, just not sure I love the white, even though I wore my white v.1 a good bit. Maybe I'd wear the v.2 more if I sized the bracelet, and got rid of some other watches.
> 
> I kind of miss the v.1 white, with it's greener C5 lume. Some guys complained about the C5 on the v.1 black and white, but I thought it added an extra dimension of color, as opposed to stark white.


I wasn't aware of the lume change from v.1 to v.2 which had me looking online for photos of the v.1 to compare, and once noticing the difference in photos online I had to check my orange v.1 to my white v.2.

The funny thing is I can barely see green in the lume against the orange dial but it is clearly noticable in the photos of the v.1 white dial, I can see why you would prefer the v.1 to v.2 as I agree in the extra dimension of colour providingt a bit more contrast from the chapter ring to the dial and possible giving the dial a bit more depth making the indicies seem taller than they are.

Thanks for sharing, I learnt somenthing new about my favourite watch.


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## SethBullock (Feb 19, 2017)

@docvail Can you provide any insight as to why so many micros can offer No Date options while most bigger brands refuse?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hey Doc, where did you get the 24 watch box and was it super hexy in price...sadly I could easily fill two of them... I think I may have a problem.
> 
> All I can say is luckily you ain't ever gunna make Bronzo's... cause then I'd seriously be in trouble
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Pretty sure I just picked it up on Amazon, but it's been at least 5 years that I've had it.

I don't remember it being stupid-expensive, maybe USD $60, which seemed reasonable for a locking aluminum case, especially after mucking about with home-grown solutions, cobbled together out of cigar boxes, a complete lack of wood-working skills, and a willingness to risk injury by band saw.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> I wasn't aware of the lume change from v.1 to v.2 which had me looking online for photos of the v.1 to compare, and once noticing the difference in photos online I had to check my orange v.1 to my white v.2.
> 
> The funny thing is I can barely see green in the lume against the orange dial but it is clearly noticable in the photos of the v.1 white dial, I can see why you would prefer the v.1 to v.2 as I agree in the extra dimension of colour providingt a bit more contrast from the chapter ring to the dial and possible giving the dial a bit more depth making the indicies seem taller than they are.
> 
> Thanks for sharing, I learnt somenthing new about my favourite watch.


There's nothing to notice. For the v.1, we only used the C5 lume on the black and white dials.

Even with the rainbow depth gauge around the perimeter, I felt like the black and the white needed a little more color, as compared to the orange and turquoise, and the LE versions, which I thought didn't.

Some folks disagreed, and were vocal about it. When we made the v.2's, I decided to change it, partly to avoid those criticisms, but also to make visually distinguishing the v.1's from the v.2's that much easier.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SethBullock said:


> @docvail Can you provide any insight as to why so many micros can offer No Date options while most bigger brands refuse?


Bigger brands are run by a bunch of wankers, I guess?

As I was putzing about the other day, putting bracelets back onto a couple of the watches I just got back from photography, I started to have a mental conversation about bracelet choices, prompted by Skulldogg (the guy who got the DLC Santa Fe) asking me if we plan to make a DLC jubilee (no, we don't).

In my mind, I was thinking about how few brands offer watches with a choice of strap or bracelet, much less more than just those two options. It seems to me that most brands offer a watch only on a bracelet, or only on a strap, or at most, on either a strap or a bracelet, but there's no choice of bracelet styles, or strap styles, etc, unless it's a choice of straps, but there's no bracelet option.

Bear with me as I tie all this together, and circle back to why I think most or all big brands don't offer date / no-date options...

Every variation a manufacturer adds to a model will multiply the number of SKUs (stock keeping units) the brand has to manage. This has an impact on all aspects of their operations, by way of complicating things, and creating more challenges, and opportunities for screw-ups.

Each SKU needs its own unique SKU number, possibly a UPC (universal product code), a product image (if not a full suite of images), etc. Someone has to design it. Someone has to determine how many of each SKU to produce. The retailers have to decide how many of each SKU to stock. As SKUs proliferate, it becomes increasingly challenging and inefficient.

For example. If I come up with a model like the DevilRay, in 3 colors, that's 3 SKUs. If I offer date or no-date as an option, that doubles the number, to 6. If we want to offer those 6 with a choice of bracelet or strap, that's now 12 SKUs. If we want to offer a 4th colorway, that adds another 4 SKUs, for a total of 16.

Consider the Barracuda Vintage Black - it was offered with a choice of date or no-date (2 SKUs). Now it's offered in stainless or DLC (4 SKus), and for the stainless case, either an oyster or BOR bracelet (6 SKUs). When we make 4 or 6 SKUs out of every version of the Subs, I have to think about how many of each SKU to produce.

NTH is still a small brand. We only have 5 retailers, not counting the NTH website. Their sales volume isn't equal. With more SKU's I'm forcing them to think about which ones NOT to take, and suggesting they only take 1 or 2 pieces of some SKUs. It's much more efficient for them to take 4 or 5 pieces each of a smaller number of variations (assuming the inventory turnover doesn't become a problem, due to producing too many pieces each of too few SKUs - it's a delicate balancing act).

Before we start thinking about offering additional choices, like a choice of bracelet styles (jubilee!), or strap styles (rubber! leather! brown! black!) - or the bonkers idea of NO strap at all, we have to pause and think about the lunacy created when we take a design with just 3 or 4 colorways, and we go crazy with the choices we offer, ending up with more than two dozen SKUs for that one model.

It creates some nightmarish scenarios in production, assembly, inventory management, and order fulfillment. It starts to become incredibly inefficient. It also gives customers way too many choices to make, which, beyond a certain point, actually slows sales down significantly.

Now think about the number of models the typical big brand, like Hamilton, has. They must have more than 3 or 4 dozen different models in production at any time, many in a variety of colorways. Imagine offering every one of those models with a choice of bracelet or strap, doubling the number of SKUs, and a choice of date or no-date, doubling the number again.

Aside from all the above, I would think that they believe the vast majority of consumers want the date (polls I've done suggest as much*), and would rather have a choice of colorways, and / or a choice of bracelet or strap. I also suspect that they don't like to put with-date movements into no-date designs.

And if the movement manufacturers don't perceive that there's as much demand for no-date designs, they likely don't produce as many no-date movements, which in turn likely makes the no-date movements more expensive to produce and stock, without the economies of scale they'd gain with larger production numbers. Whereas many on this forum seem to think the no-date versions should be cheaper, they actually cost more to produce.

To wit - the current state of affairs with micros being able to offer no-date versions without the dreaded "phantom date change" is a fairly new development. As recently as 2016, the only no-date alternative to the Miyota 9015 was the open-heart 90S5, which at the time cost 2/3 more than the 9015, and had a long lead time, due to super-low production numbers. The absurdly higher cost and longer lead time led to most micros using the with-date 9015 under no-date dials.

Prior to STP1-11 coming on the scene, I'm not sure how easy or economical it was to get no-date alternatives to the 2824-2 or SW200. With STP, there was no difference in cost or lead times, so we were able to offer the v.1 Tropics and v.1 DevilRays without phantom date changes.

Since then, Miyota has come out with the more basic no-date 9039, and lowered the cost of the 90S5 substantially, to the point that we can use all three movements as we see fit.**

Why do we do it, when most big brands don't? Because we're producing a smaller number of models (and thus a smaller number of SKUs) at any given time, generally, and likely because microbrand owners are more in tune with their customers' desires.

We're willing to trade some inefficiency for higher inventory turnover and more customer loyalty.

-- Begin Footnotes --

*Interesting side-note, regarding polls, and the need for brand owners to know their customers - I did a date / no-date preference poll in 3 different Facebook groups. Within the larger 2 groups (Diver's Watches, and Microbrands), there was a clear majority in favor of having the date, something like 5-to-2. But in the NTH Fans group, there was a very slight majority who preferred no-date, something like 55-45.

**In case anyone is wondering why we use both the 9039 and the 90S5, instead of just one or the other...

The 9039 is slightly cheaper than the 9015, whereas the 90S5 is slightly more. But whereas the 90S5 has the same hands-height as the 9015, allowing us to use the same handset on either, the 9039 has a shorter hands stack, so the same handset can't be used.

The 9039 not only requires a different handset, we have to be careful with the clearances, when the dial has applied markers. There's an increased risk of the hands dragging on the hour markers if we use the 9039.

So we'll switch off between the 9015 and 90S5 when we make a model with or without a date, and use the 9039 if a model is no-date only, and doesn't have applied markers. The slightly lower cost of the 9039 offsets the slightly higher cost of the 90S5, so we can keep the prices in line.

Final note, tying it all together - now that we're using those 3 movements, we have to stock spares of all three, so we can replace any bad units under warranty. But it's not just 3 versions. The 9015 comes with a black or white date wheel, and the date window at either 3 or 6. We have to stock 4 versions of the 9015 (or at least, 4 different date wheels, to be swapped in and out as needed), plus the 9039 and the 90S5.

Thank God they all use the same crown stem.

The above is also true for the STP1-11's we used in the v.1 Tropics and DevilRays (4 different date wheel versions, plus the no-dates), and the Seiko NH35 / NH38's we used in the v.2 DevilRays (2 different date wheel colors for the NH35, plus the slightly more expensive no-date NH38).

Running a watch brand isn't nearly as easy as some believe.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Bigger brands are run by a bunch of wankers, I guess?
> 
> As I was putzing about the other day, putting bracelets back onto a couple of the watches I just got back from photography, I started to have a mental conversation about bracelet choices, prompted by Skulldogg (the guy who got the DLC Santa Fe) asking me if we plan to make a DLC jubilee (no, we don't).
> 
> ...


Didn't the L&H phantoms use nh35 as well?

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## SethBullock (Feb 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Running a watch brand isn't nearly as easy as some believe.


Sounds that way. I appreciate the response. That makes sense.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Didn't the L&H phantoms use nh35 as well?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yes, as did the Spectre and the Orthos, which, if we want to get into that, just ups the complexity.

They all used 3 o'clock date wheels (the Phantoms in either white or black), whereas the DevilRay's date windows are all at 6 o'clock.

So, we stock the no-date NH38, and the with-date NH35, with four different date wheel variations.

As long as we're taking a trip down memory lane - we reprinted* the date wheels on the Miyota 9015's in the Acionna, so that we could put the date window at 3, when the crown was at four. Thankfully, all those date wheels were white. But there's one more date wheel variation we have on hand.

*The other day in Dan's shop, he showed me one of the re-printed Acionna date wheels close up. I could see that the original numbers were still slightly visible, albeit faded, behind the re-printed numbers. For this reason, as well as the fact that reprinted date wheels are likely to be thicker, and more likely to get stuck to the under-side of a dial, I don't even consider re-printed date wheels any more.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

So what you’re saying is, someday you’ll make me a Nazarrio Ghost with date? Awesome!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

3-1-1 said:


> What? What? (head does quick double take)
> Seems like this nugget slipped thru with little discussion. Interesting for sure.


Change is scary. 

I have mixed feelings since the current Subs are so good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 307 (Feb 5, 2018)




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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> In my mind, I was thinking about how few brands offer watches with a choice of strap or bracelet, much less more than just those two options. It seems to me that most brands offer a watch only on a bracelet, or only on a strap, or at most, on either a strap or a bracelet, but there's no choice of bracelet styles, or strap styles, etc, unless it's a choice of straps, but there's no bracelet option.
> 
> Before we start thinking about offering additional choices, like a choice of bracelet styles (jubilee!), or strap styles (rubber! leather! brown! black!) - or the bonkers idea of NO strap at all, we have to pause and think about the lunacy created when we take a design with just 3 or 4 colorways, and we go crazy with the choices we offer, ending up with more than two dozen SKUs for that one model.
> 
> ...


(Trimmed down your WOT a bit)

I don't see any reason for watch companies to offer more actual SKUs than just bracelet or strap. The company can just have a bunch of strap types available, and if you're buying through an AD, you just ask for whatever combination you want. Most times I've bought a watch new, I just say "I want the watch, and I also want the [brown/black/blue/purple] strap as well." I get the watch SKU on the original strap/bracelet it comes on, and a little bag with the other strap I requested.

As far as date/no-date, I figure it's mostly the wacky WIS that want no-date, so the big brands don't care about our kiddie pool.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> (Trimmed down your WOT a bit)
> 
> I don't see any reason for watch companies to offer more actual SKUs than just bracelet or strap. The company can just have a bunch of strap types available, and if you're buying through an AD, you just ask for whatever combination you want. Most times I've bought a watch new, I just say "I want the watch, and I also want the [brown/black/blue/purple] strap as well." I get the watch SKU on the original strap/bracelet it comes on, and a little bag with the other strap I requested.
> 
> As far as date/no-date, I figure it's mostly the wacky WIS that want no-date, so the big brands don't care about our kiddie pool.


It's easier to manage when the point of delivery, point of sale, and point of assembly are all the same point. It's harder to do if they're not.

Just to compare - you buy the watch in an AD. Okay, assuming the AD wants to stock the watch, on whatever the standard strap/bracelet option is, AND they want to stock any/all other options, then, yeah, they can give you the watch on any of those options, by swapping one option out for another, or add any of them to the standard option. They can just do the swap for you right in the store, if need be (and pray they don't do any damage in the process).

That's harder to do for NTH. You're not picking your watch up in our "store". We ship from a warehouse, wherein all the watches are stored, pre-assembled, waiting to be shipped. You can order an extra strap or bracelet on our website, but we're not having a warehouse worker do a bracelet swap for you, if you want the BOR, and all we have left are watches with the Oyster.

Even if you order from one of our retailers, where they can and probably would swap out the bracelet for you - I can get them to carry a few extra bracelets, just in case, because it's no big deal. But they're not going to agree to carry enough pieces of every other strap or bracelet option, if I start piling them on.

Just imagine if we took the two current options of Oyster or BOR bracelet, and add 2 or 3 rubber strap options. Put yourself in their position. It's insanity to create another set of SKUs for each watch + each strap. A model with 4 SKUs currently would end up being 8 SKUs, if we added two more strap options to the mix.

After my earlier post today, I figured out how many SKUs we're tracking right now. If you look at the "in-stock" page of the NTH website, there are 28 different images, but behind those 28, we're tracking 71 SKUs, with all the different DLC/stainless, date/no-date, and Oyster/BOR variations. When we get the v.2 Tropics in, that'll add another 7.

Those are just the _WATCH_ SKUs. That doesn't even count all the other SKUs - the UV torch, all the bracelets and straps, every bezel insert variation - every single one of those is a SKU we have to manage.

52 of those are the 40mm Subs. Imagine me asking the retailers to take all those SKUs, and multiply them by 2 more strap options. We'd be about doubling the number of watch SKUs.

This is also why I tend to shoot down any and all suggestions that we should be offering people the ability to customize their watch on our website, by choosing their combination of dial, handset, bezel insert, and bracelet (plus DLC or stainless case, if we want to throw that option into the discussion). To do that, we'd have to do all the assembly here, in Dan's shop, which would dramatically increase the costs, not just because of Dan's higher labor cost, but because of the added complexity and logistics of trying to stock all those parts.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Came home to pair of SEAL Straps from CNS today. I knew I shoulda got the Gulf Racing earlier!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Came home to pair of SEAL Straps from CNS today. I knew I shoulda got the Gulf Racing earlier!
> View attachment 15650826
> 
> View attachment 15650824


This isn't helping me not want the Barracuda Polar White.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> It's easier to manage when the point of delivery, point of sale, and point of assembly are all the same point. It's harder to do if they're not.
> 
> Just to compare - you buy the watch in an AD. Okay, assuming the AD wants to stock the watch, on whatever the standard strap/bracelet option is, AND they want to stock any/all other options, then, yeah, they can give you the watch on any of those options, by swapping one option out for another, or add any of them to the standard option. They can just do the swap for you right in the store, if need be (and pray they don't do any damage in the process).
> 
> ...


None of that stuff has to be in stock at the AD, it usually isn't. They just order it. Stock the watch in it's default configuration, and then order whatever extra straps the customer wants.

That's my point. There should be less SKUs, just bracelet and strap at the most. You want another strap, buy it. Or better yet, get the AD to throw it in for free. Maybe this only works for higher end stuff, idk.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> This isn't helping me not want the Barracuda Polar White.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


The 'Cuda Polar ain't no Swifty, but its still pretty damned amazing.
So.....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> None of that stuff has to be in stock at the AD, it usually isn't. They just order it. Stock the watch in it's default configuration, and then order whatever extra straps the customer wants.
> 
> That's my point. There should be less SKUs, just bracelet and strap at the most. You want another strap, buy it. Or better yet, get the AD to throw it in for free. Maybe this only works for higher end stuff, idk.


So, just to make sure I'm following along...if they don't have what you want when you walk in to buy, are you coming back to get everything later, or are they mailing you the strap later, or what?

I'm agnostic about whether there should be more or less SKUs.

In my view, the number of SKUs should be correctly aligned with what makes sense for the business, specifically how quickly they can turn their inventory over, based on how many pieces they make of each SKU.

Too few SKUs is just as much of a problem as too many. Too few, you produce too many of each, and can't sell them all quickly enough, if ever. Too many, you create too much complexity for your operations, and could end up causing analysis paralysis or customers.

As for the date / no-date thing, I personally see it as a no-brainer, must-do, at least for _MY_ business, which has a customer base with a measurable preference for no-date models, despite the larger market's clear preference for watches with the date.

I don't know if it's something that only works for higher end brands, but having only a few SKUs is definitely easier to do for a brand with large sales volume.

It may not be hard for Hamilton to sell 5000 pieces of one SKU. But for NTH, if my MOQ is 500 pieces, and I can't sell 500 pieces of one SKU, I better find a way to break that down into multiple SKUs, with fewer pieces of each.


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

Either I come later to pick it up, or they mail it. Sometimes they're ordering the watch anyway, so I'm not walking out with anything at the time of purchase no matter what. Or I'm buying over the phone, and I wait until everything comes in to pick it up. Or they mail everything.

All I'm trying to say is, why does it make sense for Breitling to offer a Navitimer on bracelet, black gator strap, brown gator strap, blue calf strap, and brown calf strap? All as separate SKUs?

Just sell the bracelet version for $8700 and the black gator strap version for $7900 and be done with it. You want brown calf? Cool, buy one. I don't consider a different strap to be a different "configuration" of the watch, and I'm surprised they want to be burdened with the extra tracking of those SKUs.

Maybe average Joe doesn't realize that straps are interchangeable, and that's what I'm missing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> Either I come later to pick it up, or they mail it. Sometimes they're ordering the watch anyway, so I'm not walking out with anything at the time of purchase no matter what. Or I'm buying over the phone, and I wait until everything comes in to pick it up. Or they mail everything.
> 
> All I'm trying to say is, why does it make sense for Breitling to offer a Navitimer on bracelet, black gator strap, brown gator strap, blue calf strap, and brown calf strap? All as separate SKUs?
> 
> ...


Just speaking from my own experience, it's not average Joe's driving this, it's enthusiasts.

Only a watch geek would criticize brands for not selling the watch head with no strap or bracelet at all (and for less, of course), so they can customize it with any strap of their choice, and save money.

Yes, I've seen that criticism.

The Oyster bracelet is the "standard" on our watches because it's as plain-vanilla and thus as inoffensive a bracelet choice as we can offer.

Only a gang of hopped-up, wild-eyed watch geeks would incessantly pester me to make a jubilee, or even know that's what that style of bracelet is called, and argue it's superior to a BOR (when it clearly isn't), given that in terms of comfort, they'd appear as similar as they are in appearance (to the untrained customer's eye).

This whole discussion started when someone asked why more brands don't offer date / no-date options. The answers were those I gave, among them the problem with doubling the number of SKUs, and the challenges that entails.

The issue of offering a choice of strap and / or bracelet is just another choice that also doubles the number of SKUs.

But the main point here isn't about straps vs bracelets. It's that whereas the mass market likely sees a choice of bracelet or strap as being an obvious option to offer customers, I'd bet 90% of the mass market (i.e, anyone who isn't a watch geek) likely hasn't even considered that they might want a watch withOUT the date, if the standard option is a watch WITH the date.

Preferring a bracelet over a strap, or vice-versa, is a mass market thing. Preferring a no-date over a with-date is a watch geek thing.

Most brands don't offer the no-date option because they don't give a $hlt about what watch geeks want.


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just speaking from my own experience, it's not average Joe's driving this, it's enthusiasts.
> 
> Only a watch geek would criticize brands for not selling the watch head with no strap or bracelet at all (and for less, of course), so they can customize it with any strap of their choice, and save money.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely correct. BOR is vastly superior to Jubilee.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

caktaylor said:


> You are absolutely correct. BoP is vastly superior to Jubilee.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fixed

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

caktaylor said:


> You are absolutely correct. BOR is vastly superior to Jubilee.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





kpjimmy said:


> Fixed
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


If you're gonna hang out in the Clubhouse, you gotta use the right slang terminology.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> Tgif
> View attachment 15651666
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Agreed.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

3-1-1 said:


> What? What? (head does quick double take)
> Seems like this nugget slipped thru with little discussion. Interesting for sure.


NACKENS WITH CHAPTER RINGS?! I'm in.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

3-1-1 said:


> What? What? (head does quick double take)
> Seems like this nugget slipped thru with little discussion. Interesting for sure.


NACKENS WITH CHAPTER RINGS?! I'm in.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Looks like the double-post bug is still with us....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Looks like the double-post bug is still with us....


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## whoagorgeous (Dec 9, 2012)

Currently my daily driver.

If only it had a fitted rubber strap. (Does it?)









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

whoagorgeous said:


> Currently my daily driver.
> 
> If only it had a fitted rubber strap. (Does it?)
> 
> ...


Love the Tik. I gave mine a new bezel insert though. 









As for the fitted rubber, Doc is hunting.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Love the Tik. I gave mine a new bezel insert though.
> View attachment 15652600
> 
> 
> As for the fitted rubber, Doc is hunting.


Vail's finest work right there. Nice photo.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

So, Doc's recent SoTC post and a recent unrelated reorganization of the watch box brought this beauty out to briefly disrupt my Speedy honeymoon:










I still maintain that when it comes to Doc's various projects over the years, this one's a sleeper. My only issue with it was that it's above my normal comfortable case size, particularly with the flared end-links of the OEM bracelet. But this StrapCode Hexad Oyster was just the thing to fix that. Looks and fits like it was designed for this watch.










The Spectre II really punches above it's weight. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something about it that's just plain appealing (which jives with Chris's comment about his kids liking it, I guess). When I wear this watch, I get complements for non-watch types at work. People notice it in a way that they don't notice most watches, without it being obnoxious.

Also, another reason that I think that I broke this out was that the Speedmaster's simple, legible monochromatic layout has recently made me appreciate this sort of dial format.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Enjoying the last of my Christmas Winter Pine candle with my NTH Barracuda Vintage Black.









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

All I can say is wow. This Scopene is as impressive in person as it looked in pictures. Thanks Doc!


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

That lume is nuclear too, good lord.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

And a shameless shot of the NTH siblings.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> All I can say is wow. This Scopene is as impressive in person as it looked in pictures. Thanks Doc!
> View attachment 15652992
> View attachment 15652993


I'm happy you're happy.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - fitted rubber straps - 

They're being made for the 40mm Subs. I'm waiting on more samples for the 2K1's.

Re - the end-links on the Spectre II - 

The end-links are terrible. There's a long story there. I don't really feel like typing it. I think I might put mine on a rubber strap.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Re - fitted rubber straps -
> 
> They're being made for the 40mm Subs. I'm waiting on more samples for the 2K1's.


What kinda branding, if any?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> What kinda branding, if any?


NTH engraved on the buckle.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Hey all. I have a V2 clasp, and would love to train for a V1 clasp. Mine has lots of marks, would be happy to trade for similar. 

Pic coming later, posting now because I’m a very, very long line at the dump.

Edit: Looks like we have a deal!


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

RR, check your PMs


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## Jwatches826 (Jun 13, 2020)

Good to see a couple Tikunas in the recent postings. I don't normally wear my watches with bracelets, but this particular bracelet is so comfortable which makes it challenging for me to use any other alternatives!


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)




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## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Hey all - thought I'd share a little review of the 2K1 Swiftsure...and I want to be very up front that I am expecting to be ridiculed as a fan boy here...and that's your prerogative. But I've owned many, many watches from L&H and NTH over the years and have always been impressed with their quality, aesthetics, and value.

I've not been around here much for some time but thought I would dip my toe back in to share some feedback on the 2K1 models since there's a chance, like me, many fans of the smaller, original subs may think the 2K1's are too big. To be clear, @docvail sent me the 2K1 Swiftsure as a loaner to check out and, more importantly, to take photos of it for sharing on social media. I received the watch thinking I would not like it, it would be a monster on my wrist and, boy, was I wrong.

I didn't follow the 2K1 subs much as my tastes have leaned hard into smaller and (frequently) vintage watches over the past few years. I remember deciding to sell the NTH Azores because of how big it _seemed_ and my Raven Deep Tech because of how big it _was_. Particularly with the Deep Tech, a watch I really loved, I came to realize that a 17mm thick watch with a 42.5mm diameter was just way too massive for me. So, as I read the news about the 2K1 line becoming a thing, I figured they just wouldn't work for me.

However, I've not taken the watch off my wrist (or its bracelet) since it arrived a few days ago.

Seeing the watch in person, especially once it was on my wrist, made me realize the design has some serious black magic at play or something. This doesn't look or feel like an almost 44mm watch should look or feel at all. First of all it's thin at 13mm. It will slide under a shirt cuff if it needs to and I think the larger diameter somehow makes it feel even thinner than 13mm. It reminds me of a long, sleek, European luxury sedan - it's clearly a huge car but you don't doubt it's ready to hold its own in a quick race when the light turns green. The case is the opposite of a slab - the chamfered and polished top line of the case blends into the base of the bezel, which then tapers up and back out again, to create a look that's almost like the bezel is floating above the brushed case until you reach the chamfered and polished lower edge on your wrist. Again, comparing this to my old Raven Deep Tech, the case on the Swiftsure makes it a much more versatile watch - sure it's a tool watch but it's also clearly a sport watch and, while it would never be my first choice, I could wear it dressed up without shame if I needed to.

The dial has enough space, in part thanks to the relatively thin bezel I think, for the indices - both stick and numbered - to be big . So big that no one could ever say it isn't a legible watch. The contrast is pretty awesome, too. Maybe it's just the sub variants I've personally owned, but I've come to almost expect some lume or color mis-matches between the dial and bezel on an NTH watch. But this is black and white. Dial and bezel. High contrast, easy to read, and perfectly matched. The touch of blue is nice but, honestly, I tend to lose sight of it in the tip of the second hand and the hour-indices. Which is perfectly ok with me. I think pairing it with the right strap would help to make those touches of blue pop (which I'll test out here in the next few days).

Finally, the day I received it, I put it on my wrist around 2pm and continued to work in my home office until 6:30 or so. The watch was facing my windows and it was a clear day but not sunny. I spent all evening doing things around the house with the family and wound up wearing the watch to bed. When I woke up around 3am, I noticed the lume was still glowing bright enough to make it easy to read in the darkness. I can only imagine how good it would be with a full day's charge from the beach or a hike or just doing dad stuff around the yard.

I should know better than to think I can rule out an NTH watch based on specs alone from now on and may think twice about accepting a loaner again as this one is resulting in another watch purchase, making it a fairly expensive test drive.

Photo Tax:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So....that one won't be going back in my case, it seems...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

CMFord said:


> Hey all - thought I'd share a little review of the 2K1 Swiftsure...and I want to be very up front that I am expecting to be ridiculed as a fan boy here...and that's your prerogative. But I've owned many, many watches from L&H and NTH over the years and have always been impressed with their quality, aesthetics, and value.
> 
> I've not been around here much for some time but thought I would dip my toe back in to share some feedback on the 2K1 models since there's a chance, like me, many fans of the smaller, original subs may think the 2K1's are too big. To be clear, @docvail sent me the 2K1 Swiftsure as a loaner to check out and, more importantly, to take photos of it for sharing on social media. I received the watch thinking I would not like it, it would be a monster on my wrist and, boy, was I wrong.
> 
> ...


Sorry I may have missed it, but what's the size of your wrist?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

I need this!!! My new watch budget is about $200 short of what I need.

My wife is cool with $500. $700 might be a dealbreaker.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

CMFord said:


> Hey all - thought I'd share a little review of the 2K1 Swiftsure...and I want to be very up front that I am expecting to be ridiculed as a fan boy here...and that's your prerogative. But I've owned many, many watches from L&H and NTH over the years and have always been impressed with their quality, aesthetics, and value.
> 
> I've not been around here much for some time but thought I would dip my toe back in to share some feedback on the 2K1 models since there's a chance, like me, many fans of the smaller, original subs may think the 2K1's are too big. To be clear, @docvail sent me the 2K1 Swiftsure as a loaner to check out and, more importantly, to take photos of it for sharing on social media. I received the watch thinking I would not like it, it would be a monster on my wrist and, boy, was I wrong.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with being a fanboy. Sometimes...


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Nothing wrong with being a fanboy. Sometimes...
> View attachment 15656766


Think of ALL the money your saving on cursed alcohol. You deserve it Bearded. When i finally kick the ethanol habit I'd assume I'll have a ton f free mula.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

HammyMan37 said:


> Think of ALL the money your saving on cursed alcohol. You deserve it Bearded. When i finally kick the ethanol habit I'd assume I'll have a ton f free mula.


Save? Huh?
How do you think I fund _this_ addiction?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> I need this!!! My new watch budget is about $200 short of what I need.
> 
> My wife is cool with $500. $700 might be a dealbreaker.
> 
> View attachment 15656750


Maybe keep an eye on the used market.

I just looked at Watch Recon, eBay, and Facebook, and only saw one for sale (on FB), posted back in November. The seller was asking $625. There were also a couple of sales here on the forum, in mid-late December, with both going for around $600.

I'd set up an alert on Watch Recon and eBay, but it seems like $500 is a big ask.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here planning to support Rusty's launch by getting in on the Atticus pre-order today?


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

Heck yeah!


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> Anyone here planning to support Rusty's launch by getting in on the Atticus pre-order today?


I'd really like to. The price is great. I'm sure the watches will be great. And there are a couple of models I like. But I'm just not down with pre-orders anymore unless they are a lead time of a month or less. Too many watches that I like, want and are available right now.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Anyone here planning to support Rusty's launch by getting in on the Atticus pre-order today?


Planned on and did. Icarus with date ordered. Way too good of a deal to pass up. I wish the others spoke to me, at that price I'd buy all of them.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Anyone here planning to support Rusty's launch by getting in on the Atticus pre-order today?


If they were _2mm _larger I'd be on that Téleios like stink on s***. 40mm is my minimum, and I'll die on this hill.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

3-1-1 said:


> I'd really like to. The price is great. I'm sure the watches will be great. And there are a couple of models I like. But I'm just not down with pre-orders anymore unless they are a lead time of a month or less. Too many watches that I like, want and are available right now.


For the price VS retail I'll gladly wait. I've had to wait 6 months to a year in some cases for other things / hobbies of mine. Never bothered me, in fact I think the delayed gratification can be more fulfilling sometimes.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Happy Monday NTH Family!


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> No excuse needed. I re-answer questions all the time.
> 
> I honestly don't know if we'll make more Amphions. The simple fact is they don't sell as quickly as the Barracudas and Nackens. We sold 300 Barracuda Vintage Blacks in the time it took to sell 100 Amphion Vintage Gilts.
> 
> ...


Hey Chris-

A bit late to the conversation, but figured worth giving a shout out. I've been on the hunt and scouring the used market for an Amphion Modern Black, as well as the other models. Even been politely harassing John @watchgauge inquiring if there are any lying around.

IF you ever decide to produce more of any of the models, I suspect myself as well as a host of others would jump onboard for pre-orders. Why not run a survey, gauge current market demand and calculate conservative margins. Ok, being a bit ridiculous, but at the end of the day, there really are not many options for those of us that are milsub fans but want the modern specs NTH offers with the Amphion.

The hunt continues....

Best,
Taylor


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I honestly don't know if we'll make more Amphions. The simple fact is they don't sell as quickly as the Barracudas and Nackens. We sold 300 Barracuda Vintage Blacks in the time it took to sell 100 Amphion Vintage Gilts.


But a lot of the people who bought the Amphions would not have bought Barracudas or Nackens.

So if the time value of money still makes selling Amphions a good deal for you, I don't see why you would never make any again.

Now that you have bezel inserts available, I would buy an Amphion original if you ever make another one.

But I'm not a potential customer for a snowflake hand or a mercedes hand.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Anyone here planning to support Rusty's launch by getting in on the Atticus pre-order today?


Yep, order placed, I've been enthusiastic about the Icarus from the original announcement.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

cghorr01 said:


> For the price VS retail I'll gladly wait. I've had to wait 6 months to a year in some cases for other things / hobbies of mine. Never bothered me, in fact I think the delayed gratification can be more fulfilling sometimes.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


See I'm exactly the opposite on the delayed-gratification. I find that six months down the road, I've stopped anticipating a watch at all. I'm over it and planning to flip before it even arrives. Like that Hamtun debacle. Once they finally started shipping, I just no longer cared.
(P.S., not that I mean to suggest the Atticus pre-order will be anything like the Hamtun kickstarter ... I for one was never all up in arms about the delay. It was kickstarter after all. But the indifference to the product from the numerous months of waiting was real. They were still great spec'd watches for the price all those months later. It was me that changed.)


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Plus I know a bunch of y'all will be flipping yours by the end of summer, so I'll get my crack at a nice price then!


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

docvail said:


> Anyone here planning to support Rusty's launch by getting in on the Atticus pre-order today?


Ordered one today! They look great and the pre-order price is terrific.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Save? Huh?
> How do you think I fund _this_ addiction?


Agreed!

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

3-1-1 said:


> I'd really like to. The price is great. I'm sure the watches will be great. And there are a couple of models I like. But I'm just not down with pre-orders anymore unless they are a lead time of a month or less. Too many watches that I like, want and are available right now.


These are my thoughts. But I'll still do the Borealis half down/ready in <2 months, then pay the remainder.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Hey Chris-
> 
> A bit late to the conversation, but figured worth giving a shout out. I've been on the hunt and scouring the used market for an Amphion Modern Black, as well as the other models. Even been politely harassing John @watchgauge inquiring if there are any lying around.


There aren't.



tregan13 said:


> IF you ever decide to produce more of any of the models, I suspect myself as well as a host of others would jump onboard for pre-orders.


I doubt I'll ever do another pre-order, unless it's under very special circumstances, like some sort of limited edition made-to-order for a group, where they're all plunking down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders.

Otherwise, I hate doing pre-orders (even at full price), because I hate the ongoing expectation of communication that comes with doing them. I'd rather peeps keep their money, so no one feels like I owe them weekly updates. I hate that $hlt.

Here's how I like to run my business - I order production, I pay for production, I'll make everyone aware of it when the watches are ready, and you can buy the watches then.

So simple.



tregan13 said:


> Why not run a survey, gauge current market demand and calculate conservative margins.


1. I don't trust surveys or polls to be an overly accurate indicator of anything. After doing a bunch of them over the years, I trust my own instincts more, because I've found all the surveys and polls to be so inaccurate.

2. My margins wouldn't change based on demand, so I definitely don't need a survey to know what they'll be.



tregan13 said:


> Ok, being a bit ridiculous, but at the end of the day, there really are not many options for those of us that are milsub fans but want the modern specs NTH offers with the Amphion.
> 
> The hunt continues....
> 
> ...


Try to see this from my perspective -

Any dial variation we want to make, I have to make at least 50 pieces. If we want to offer date / no-date options, that's 50 of each, for a total of 100.

We've made 290 of the Amphion so far, all versions included. We've made more than double that of the Barracudas (all versions), and 5x that many of the Nackens. The reason we made so many more of those other models, compared to the Amphions, is a function of how quickly each model sold.

It's not about how many guys _SAY_ they want something. It's about how quickly I can sell the next 50 or 100 Amphions we make. Judging by how the first ~300 Amphions sold, I know - to a certainty - that I'll sell the next 50 or 100 of the Barracuda or the Nacken faster.

The faster I sell the inventory, the better it is for my business. Sitting on 20-30 unsold Amphions for months on end will make me want to hunt down and murder the 10-12 guys who wouldn't shut up about them, when I knew we didn't really need to make more, but we did anyway, because those guys wouldn't shut up, and I ignored my own instincts.

We still have 50 dials left for the Amphion Commando. We might assemble those 50 for delivery later this year. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. But I'm not about to order up another 100 dials / handsets of any other Amphion versions any time soon, unless...

If anyone wants to "prove me wrong", it's easy enough to do. Go find 49 friends willing to plunk down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders (25 date / 25 no-date, or all 50 the same), and I'll take your money right now, for delivery in 4-6 months. If you can get 50 guys who want to buy an Amphion that badly, I'll admit I was wrong, and should have made more Amphions sooner.

Until then, as I said, I trust my own instincts more, when it comes to what people will or won't buy, since my instincts are informed by having sold over 4,000 of the NTH Subs, and knowing how well (read: "how quickly") each design sold.



Avo said:


> But a lot of the people who bought the Amphions would not have bought Barracudas or Nackens.


What's your point?

That I should make the Amphion, Barracuda and Nacken in equal numbers, regardless of how well they actually sell?

No, I shouldn't. That's a bonehead way to run a business.



Avo said:


> So if the time value of money still makes selling Amphions a good deal for you, I don't see why you would never make any again.


I don't see how you come to this conclusion, since you'd have no idea how well (read: "how quickly") the Amphions sold in the past, much less any idea how well they'd sell in the future.



Avo said:


> Now that you have bezel inserts available, I would buy an Amphion original if you ever make another one.


They're out there, on the used market.

If you want a new one, find 49 friends who feel the same way, and strongly enough to plunk down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders. I'll have the watches to you in 4-6 months.



Avo said:


> But I'm not a potential customer for a snowflake hand or a mercedes hand.


Fair enough. Luckily you're not required to buy one. They're watches, not Obamacare.

---

Let me give you both - and everyone else here - an easier example of how this all looks to me, versus how it looks to you.

How many guys are regulars in those BSHT threads? At least a few dozen, but maybe 100, maybe hundreds. I don't know. We made the Carolina for them. I told them up front that we needed at least 50 guys to sign on to get them made.

After 3 months of discussion, we sold something like 34 or 36 in pre-order. That's it. All those guys, and we couldn't get 50 sold. Of course, there were the usual excuses - someone didn't have the money ready, needed to sell some other watches, suddenly needed a new refrigerator, whatever.

I ordered 40 from my factory. I don't remember how quickly the last 4-6 sold, but it wasn't anywhere close to "instantly". I think it was another month or so before they were all gone.

In the meantime, guys started coming out of the woodwork to ask if there were any more available, or if we'd make more. I said there weren't, and we wouldn't. Those 40 pieces became highly sought after by guys in those threads, which might lead anyone to think I should make more.

Some time later, I discovered my factory actually had 10 more of those dials (because our dial MOQ is 50, after all), and so we were able to make another 10. With all the guys trying to crawl up my a$$ searching for hidden Carolinas prior to that, you'd think we'd have sold those 10 instantly, but if memory serves, we didn't. I actually had to go to some effort to sell them, if I recall.

I am so, so, so sick and tired of guys online saying stupid stuff like, "if you made ____, I'd buy it right now." Because we often have made it, and those guys are nowhere to be found. Or they suddenly forget where they left their wallet, or that their old lady is pregnant, or that their car is a POS in need of repairs.

I love when someone on FB or Instragram asks, "when will you make more of these", and I say, "they're actually available right now, here's a link...", only to have them respond, "Oh, I don't have the money right now..." It's such a joke. If you can't drop $700 now, what are the odds you'll be able to drop it whenever we put the next batch up for sale?

The demand for everything ALWAYS seems higher than it actually is. The demand isn't something we measure over a long timeline, like years. I measure it in days. I need my inventory to turn over 4 times per year, on average (every 91.25 days). For every design that needs 6 or 12 months to sell 50 or 100 pieces, I need a design that will sell 2x-4x as many within that same timeframe.

And that's a LOT easier said than done.

Please, let me figure out what we'll make, and when. If there's enough demand to make more of something we've already made, I should know that better than anyone else, and I should be able to determine when is the right time to make more.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> There aren't.
> 
> I doubt I'll ever do another pre-order, unless it's under very special circumstances, like some sort of limited edition made-to-order for a group, where they're all plunking down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders.
> 
> ...


Chris-

Love your response and your honesty. I get it and am certainly not asking that you run your business based on the whims and comments from a bunch of fan boys (myself included) on a watch forum.

My remarks were meant to be a bit more tongue in cheek, but I failed at getting that across and had no idea of the actual history you mentioned in your post. Apologies for my ignorance and touching a nerve.

I am new here and do not post that often, but have quickly found the community to be supportive in my pursuit of certain time pieces, as well as advice and inspiration.

As a digital designer and professional consultant that's been responsible for millions of dollars in business, your own business challenges are not wasted on me. Albeit in my world it's selling the business and then using your instincts and talents to figure out how to staff and deliver the solution that can be the challenge vs using your instincts and talents to navigate a market as crazy as the watch industry.

I can accept the "why" regarding the Amphion. Didn't mean to pi$$ you off. Regardless, I love NTH watches and will continue buying the models I like.

Best,
Taylor


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

tregan13 said:


> Chris-
> 
> Love your response and your honesty. I get it and am certainly not asking that you run your business based on the whims and comments from a bunch of fan boys (myself included) on a watch forum.
> 
> ...


That's just Doc, man. You aren't the first to illicit a WoT, you won't be the last.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Chris-
> 
> Love your response and your honesty. I get it and am certainly not asking that you run your business based on the whims and comments from a bunch of fan boys (myself included) on a watch forum.
> 
> ...


No apology needed. I'm not pissed. That's how I always sound, apparently.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> That's just Doc, man. You aren't the first to illicit a WoT, you won't be the last.


I think it's a badge of honor, to rate one...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For a time, my Tapatalk signature read, "This message isn't angry, it's just my thumbs typing furiously."

I don't think any signature I've had before or since was more suited.

For real though - no one should read my posts in such a way that their length correlates to the severity of tone.

That said - I get a lot of people making "you know what you oughta do" sorts of comments pretty regularly. I suppose it comes with the territory when you make yourself as available as I do. I try to discourage them without sounding overly dismissive.

If the CEO of Ford was on car forums, I'm sure someone would have told him that making a 4-door electric SUV and calling it a "Mustang" was a poo-poo idea. I know I would have, because nothing about any of that appeals to me. 

If I'd been asked, I'd have told him to make a stubby wheelbase, 300+ bhp V-6, 4-door, gas-powered, all-wheel-drive sedan instead, because that's what I like. Basically, I want an AWD version of the Mustang that can compete with the AWD BMW 3 series.

But then again, maybe the CEO of Ford (or NTH) knows something we don't. Maybe a 4-door electric SUV will sell better, and I should just go $hlt in my hat.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

How’s the v-dub treating you, Doc?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> For a time, my Tapatalk signature read, "This message isn't angry, it's just my thumbs typing furiously."
> 
> I don't think any signature I've had before or since was more suited.
> 
> ...


Funny you should mention Ford. If you've seen Ford Vs. Ferrari, you'll remember the scene when Carroll Shelby puts Henry Ford II into the car and gives him a taste of what it's like to experience the machine from the passenger side. After Ford craps himself and starts crying, Shelby tells him "This is not a machine anyone can just get in and easily control." Ford says, "Absolutely not."

Let's make it interesting Chris. Let's do an experiment. I hypothesize I can get 49 people, plus myself to pay you for Amphions available in 4-6 months through say a one-page microsite that tells the story of this forum exchange, the challenge, and a link that redirects to the payment processing of your choice that we could perhaps hold in escrow till 50 total is hit. I'll design the site, pay for the domain hosting, you provide me the permissions to use NTH branded pics and collateral for the site, as well as permissions to promote it. If the experiment fails, you've put up ZERO risk. If it succeeds, well, it's a win:win. Just need to figure out timeline for go-no-go. I'm sure your legal council would say absolutely not, but you're the boss, brand it a contest if it puts minds at ease.

Talk is boring. Let's get into it and take it for a spin.

I've done a few things over the years: Taylor Regan Digital Experience Design

Now I want a NEW Amphion, not a used one. I know there are at least 49 people out there willing to drop cash and wait on delivery. But, I could be wrong.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> How's the v-dub treating you, Doc?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It burned a quart of oil since I got it. Typical turbo four. There also seems to be a slow leak in one of the tires.

Other than that, it's been bullet proof.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If you liked Ford vs Ferrari, you'd probably like the documentary about Carroll Shelby on Netflix.


We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Funny you should mention Ford. If you've seen Ford Vs. Ferrari, you'll remember the scene when Carroll Shelby puts Henry Ford II into the car and gives him a taste of what it's like to experience the machine from the passenger side. After Ford craps himself and starts crying, Shelby tells him "This is not a machine anyone can just get in and easily control." Ford says, "Absolutely not."
> 
> Let's make it interesting Chris. Let's do an experiment. I hypothesize I can get 49 people, plus myself to pay you for Amphions available in 4-6 months through say a one-page microsite that tells the story of this forum exchange, the challenge, and a link that redirects to the payment processing of your choice that we could perhaps hold in escrow till 50 total is hit. I'll design the site, pay for the domain hosting, you provide me the permissions to use NTH branded pics and collateral for the site, as well as permissions to promote it. If the experiment fails, you've put up ZERO risk. If it succeeds, well, it's a win:win. Just need to figure out timeline for go-no-go. I'm sure your legal council would say absolutely not, but you're the boss, brand it a contest if it puts minds at ease.
> 
> ...


I'm down.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm down.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


@tregan13 let me know when the site is up. I'm down too!

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just FYI, before anyone starts sizing their Amphion - the next batch of 40mm Subs will most likely be the 2.0's, with the updated case shape, to mirror the 2K1's.

If you want a no-crown guards version, you better get one of the ones still left available.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> What's your point? That I should make the Amphion, Barracuda and Nacken in equal numbers, regardless of how well they actually sell?


No. My point is that you should make them in numbers that maximize your profit.

If Amphions sell so slowly that you're not making more on your investment than you would at a bank, then of course you shouldn't make any.

I doubt it's that bad, but I gather from your comments that it's pretty bad.

For me, the takeaway is that I'm cursed with a taste for the unpopular.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> No. My point is that you should make them in numbers that maximize your profit.
> 
> If Amphions sell so slowly that you're not making more on your investment than you would at a bank, then of course you shouldn't make any.
> 
> ...


My choice isn't make more Amphions vs sticking the money in the bank.

It's deciding which 5-7 models to make in the next release, and the one after that, and the one after that...

It's about making more Amphions now, versus not making more now, and instead making something else now, and making more Amphions later, maybe, but also, maybe not.

Like I tried to explain before, when you asked why I wouldn't make more Tikunas. It's about the sales PACE, not about whether or not I could sell MORE.

I can always sell more of anything, the question is how many I can sell, and how long that'll take. If I have to make 50-100 of something, I want to know I can sell them quickly enough, RIGHT NOW, before I pull the trigger. Otherwise, I'll wait, and make them later, maybe, when I'm sure they'll sell quickly.

We make everything in limited numbers. Eventually, every design will be discontinued. And with every, single, one of those, there will be guys who come along later to ask, "what happened? Did I miss them? Will you make more?"

Answers - we had them for sale, then they sold out, it appears you did, and maybe, maybe not.

There are 40 different versions of the NTH Subs. We can't keep them all in stock at the same time, and they don't all sell equally fast. The pace of production has to match their sales pace. If a design is a slower seller, it'll be made less often.

I don't know how else to explain it in a way that'll make sense.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just FYI, before anyone starts sizing their Amphion - the next batch of 40mm Subs will most likely be the 2.0's, with the updated case shape, to mirror the 2K1's.
> 
> If you want a no-crown guards version, you better get one of the ones still left available.
> View attachment 15658553
> ...


That's haute.

You know, Doc, you were the one that sold me on the whole "no crown guard" thing. Now I struggle with the idea, but I could get down with it. I'm also contemplating the new bezel edge. The more "aggressive" edge of the v1 is something I've really come to appreciate as I've tried the bezels on other watches and felt my fingers slip on the bezel edges.

Also, just out of curiosity, what's the width of ends of the lugs? Looks like a more aggressive taper than the v1.

Sorry if all of this has been covered earlier. I don't read the WoTs much anymore, just scroll through pics. Because, well...

Here's basically every WoT, ever:

Doc: "Something something watches, here's why your idea isn't as good as you think it is based on my experience, blah, blah watches, find 49 friends, yadda yadda watches. Philly."


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Coriolanus said:


> Doc: "Something something watches, here's why your idea isn't as good as you think it is based on my experience, blah, blah watches, find 49 friends, yadda yadda watches. Philly."


Actually laughed out loud. Thank you sir.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Just FYI, before anyone starts sizing their Amphion - the next batch of 40mm Subs will most likely be the 2.0's, with the updated case shape, to mirror the 2K1's.
> 
> If you want a no-crown guards version, you better get one of the ones still left available.
> View attachment 15658553
> ...


Hmm. My 2 cents is that crown guards and that type of bezel get the watches 2 steps closer to Steinharts, Squales and 50 others. And it's just going to invite even more *****ing about why your watches don't have swiss movements like theirs do.


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## SethBullock (Feb 19, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> find 49 friends


Like anyone on this site even has one.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

bolts40 said:


> @tregan13 let me know when the site is up. I'm down too!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Yes! Will do.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Devil Ray day









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Love the new 2.0 case doc. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> That's haute.
> 
> You know, Doc, you were the one that sold me on the whole "no crown guard" thing. Now I struggle with the idea, but I could get down with it. I'm also contemplating the new bezel edge. The more "aggressive" edge of the v1 is something I've really come to appreciate as I've tried the bezels on other watches and felt my fingers slip on the bezel edges.
> 
> ...


It's shocking how much that sounds like me.

The v.2 Subs design is basically a scaled-down 2K1 design, which was based on a scaled-up "footprint" of the 1967 Sea-Dweller, which was basically just a ref 5513 with an HEV added. The Tudor Snowflake Subs had much the same case design.

The taper of the lugs, as seen from the front, would have come from Aaron, I think, though it may have also been Rusty, or just the natural result of trying to shorten the lug length on the 2K1.

If we'd kept the proportions of the 5513 exactly the same, the lug length would have been 52mm, and we wanted the case length to be a little shorter. So...more tapered lugs is what we got, I guess.

When we scaled the 2K1 case down to 40mm, the lug length ended up being 47mm, rather than the v.1 Subs' 48mm.

I think the chamfered edge accentuates the taper more in illustrations, and it's less severe looking in real life.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Just FYI, before anyone starts sizing their Amphion - the next batch of 40mm Subs will most likely be the 2.0's, with the updated case shape, to mirror the 2K1's.
> 
> If you want a no-crown guards version, you better get one of the ones still left available.
> View attachment 15658553
> ...


I feel like this needs more hype! Are these drawings just 'shrunken' versions of the 2K1 case, or did you have to make many changes to the design? I like that the chamfered edge of the 2k1 on the crown guards survived the downsizing. I recall mention of it being difficult to pull off on the larger size, something about tolerances or some such. So glad to see that this detail is still present!

Stoked for this!

edit: You basically answered it while I was typing


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Hmm. My 2 cents is that crown guards and that type of bezel get the watches 2 steps closer to Steinharts, Squales and 50 others. And it's just going to invite even more *****ing about why your watches don't have swiss movements like theirs do.


Let 'em curse and gnash their teeth.


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## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Are the bezels interchangeable...? Pure hypothetical question of course 

Gesendet von meinem Mi 9T mit Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just FYI, before anyone starts sizing their Amphion - the next batch of 40mm Subs will most likely be the 2.0's, with the updated case shape, to mirror the 2K1's.
> 
> If you want a no-crown guards version, you better get one of the ones still left available.
> View attachment 15658553
> ...


Hey Doc,

Will the 2.0's have the same dial size and/or will the 1.0 v1/v2 bracelets be compatible?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The bezel inserts, dials, and crowns will be compatible between v.1 and v.2 cases. End links will not be, due to shorter lug length, unless we want to make that 48mm.


We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

92gli said:


> Hmm. My 2 cents is that crown guards and that type of bezel get the watches 2 steps closer to Steinharts, Squales and 50 others. And it's just going to invite even more *****ing about why your watches don't have swiss movements like theirs do.


I'll take the Japanese movement if it keeps the case at ~11mm thick. The thickness of my Nth subs are what keeps them on my wrist on 90% of my work days.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...I'm thinking about asking my guys to lengthen the v.2 case to 48mm, if that means we can use the same bracelets.

Thoughts?


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> I'm down.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


Need to clarify a few things and request a few things from the NTH camp to get this moving. You have direct messaging turned off, I will try sending a message through NTH contact us page to establish a communication channel.

Best,
Taylor


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...I'm thinking about asking my guys to lengthen the v.2 case to 48mm, if that means we can use the same bracelets.
> 
> Thoughts?


I dunno how 1mm would affect the appearance, and it seems like it would probably make your life a lot easier to have the bracelet stay exactly the same, but I personally prefer the shorter lug-to-lug, and the current sketch you posted looks great.

With my Ghost and Nacken feeling a bit like a duplication, I might have to upgrade the Nacken if/when the v2 comes out!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Anyone here planning to support Rusty's launch by getting in on the Atticus pre-order today?


I did. Teleios, and in a move which surprised me, no-date. Figure if I'm going with a dressier version, might as well go no-date.



TheBearded said:


> If they were _2mm _larger I'd be on that Téleios like stink on s***. 40mm is my minimum, and I'll die on this hill.


I hear Doc talked him up from 36mm to 38... at 38, I was on the fence, at 36, it would have been a no-brainer.

FWIW, I was in on the pre-order over a year ago, when it was $100 more expensive, and planned for a Swiss movement. In my world, this is like getting a movement upgrade (to Japanese Miyota) for a $100 discount...


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> So...I'm thinking about asking my guys to lengthen the v.2 case to 48mm, if that means we can use the same bracelets.
> 
> Thoughts?


Looking at the case dimensions you posted it appears that the body is 39mm rather than 40mm. Will this impact the dimensions of the end link shape?

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Need to clarify a few things and request a few things from the NTH camp to get this moving. You have direct messaging turned off, I will try sending a message through NTH contact us page to establish a communication channel.
> 
> Best,
> Taylor


I _had_ direct messaging turned off. Apparently the new forum software doesn't allow for that, or if it does, I don't know how to disable the ability to receive PM's.

Regardless, email and / or the contact form of the website (which is just email with an extra step) is a better way to reach me, as I can easily search, sort, and track emails, which I can't do with direct messages (seriously, for the love of God, why do people think that's a good way to request support? But I digress...)

Before you go working on this, be advised...

1. I just requested a couple changes to the v.2 case design. It isn't final yet, but it will hopefully be finalized soon, because...

2. We want to start the next round of production no later than late February, some 5 weeks from now, which means...

3. We won't have a lot of time to whip up illustrations of v.2 designs in support of a "Who wants an Amphion" project, nor will you have a lot of time to create a micro-site, fill it with content, and direct people to it. Also - I probably won't have scads of time to deal with the back-end programming which may be required, such as redirecting folks from the microsite to checkout on the NTH site.

4. In order to get this done as part of our next release of Subs, we'd need to have those 50 pre-orders in before we start production, or very, very soon after, which seems like it's going to be a challenge, considering...

5. There have been 6 different versions of the "Amphion" - Commando, Dark Gilt (applied markers), Modern Black (applied markers, white lume), Vintage Black (printed markers, sandpaper texture dial), Vintage Blue (same as Vintage Black, except it's blue, duh), and Vintage Gilt (gilt relief dial, like the Barracuda Vintage Black).

In order to do what you're proposing, you'd have to wait for us to finalize the v.2 case design, and create a full set of images (at my expense, of course), then you'd have _MAYBE_ four weeks to get 50 guys to agree on which of the 6 versions of the Amphion to make again, then get all 50 of those guys to get their orders in within a very short time frame, likely 2-3 days, tops.

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but...I've been here before. I was on the steering committee for the first Affordable Watches sub-forum project watch, the discussion of which lasted almost a year, maybe longer.

I also produced the second forum project watch, and even with a fairly focused design theme at the start, and with me putting strict limits on the design options, discussion took 2-3 months.

And I've produced 3 other special projects or "collaborations" - one with the BSHT guys (the Carolina), and two with other individuals, Mark Kiger (the Kiger Red Ronin) and TGV from the Urban Gentry (the Catalina).

I've never seen a project come together that fast. Never. Even when it was just me and one other guy - it took longer than it should have.

For the Carolina project, there were some very brief discussions among those BSHT guys before I got involved. I created a FB group for discussing the project on April 30. There was some small bit of delay while I confirmed my factory could make a true gilt-relief dial, but even so - it took 2 months of debate / discussion before we were ready to open pre-orders on July 6.

In my view, this really shouldn't take that long, but I bet it will. Everything takes longer when I'm not the only one making the decisions (which is how I prefer to do things, for what ought to be obvious reasons).

In an ideal world, you would do a poll with the 6 Amphion versions (or I can just tell you now the Vintage Blue isn't an option), see which option gets at least 50 people to go for it, open pre-orders, and see if you can get 50 people to buy in.

Oh, also, I forgot...if we don't get to 50, refunding orders actually costs me money, as PayPal and the credit card companies don't refund their fees anymore. So, I think it's only fair to make everyone involved aware that if we don't get 50 people on board by the time we need them, refunds will be net of those fees, not quite 100%.

Good luck with all that.

Alternatively, you could also just wait until we assemble the rest of the Amphion Commandos, probably later this year, and then get around to making more of whichever other version of the Amphion we might make again, or new version we might create.

My guess is we might do another version with applied markers at some point. Maybe a sunburst blue-and-gilt version.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I dunno how 1mm would affect the appearance, and it seems like it would probably make your life a lot easier to have the bracelet stay exactly the same, but I personally prefer the shorter lug-to-lug, and the current sketch you posted looks great.
> 
> With my Ghost and Nacken feeling a bit like a duplication, I might have to upgrade the Nacken if/when the v2 comes out!


Making the case 1mm longer will make the overall design seem less "fat", by lengthening the footprint. The bezel won't look as wide when the lug length is longer.

I've also asked them to widen the tips of the lugs, to make the taper less severe. I think that will also help slim the mid-section, visually / proportionally.

It's 1mm increase in length. While I'm aware that there are guys who think the current 48mm lug length is too long, that's an opinion, one I'm willing to ignore, in favor of getting what I see as an improved design.

My wife, mother, and 2 aunts all wear 40mm Subs. Their wrists range from under 6mm to 6.5mm. It's hard for me to listen to adult men whinge about the Subs' lug length.

That's why we curve the lugs downward...



Omegafanboy said:


> Looking at the case dimensions you posted it appears that the body is 39mm rather than 40mm. Will this impact the dimensions of the end link shape?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


I don't think so. As I mentioned in a recent post, the central case cylinder of the v.1 isn't uniformly 40mm in diameter. The span between the lugs has a radius of 19mm (or it might be 19.5mm, I forget), not 20mm, making the case slightly oblong, with a 38mm or 39mm diameter between the lugs (measuring 12-6), and a 40mm diameter outside (10-2).

But, regardless, in my request to my vendor, I asked them to confirm that the revised v.2 design will allow the end-links to carry over. I'll reconfirm when they send me the updated design.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> So...I'm thinking about asking my guys to lengthen the v.2 case to 48mm, if that means we can use the same bracelets.
> 
> Thoughts?


No, thank you. Keep it as short as possible. Love the 39mm case dia, and 47mm L2L. Where I've previously said I only need one NTH sub in my collection, this v2 sub design might get me to change my mind. Also, keep as much v1 compatibility as you can. Especially bezel inserts...


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...I'm thinking about asking my guys to lengthen the v.2 case to 48mm, if that means we can use the same bracelets.
> 
> Thoughts?


Absolutely yes!

My NTH BoP bracelet is like Frank's RedHot sauce: I put that $&!# on everything.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> No, thank you. Keep it as short as possible. Love the 39mm case dia, and 47mm L2L. Where I've previously said I only need one NTH sub in my collection, this v2 sub design might get me to change my mind. Also, keep as much v1 compatibility as you can. Especially bezel inserts...


Keeping parts' interchange-ability was something I asked for, so we don't have to stock two different sets of bezel inserts, dials, handsets, crystals, or crowns.

I didn't really stop to think about the end-links not being compatible, until the last couple of days, when I started to think about all the BOR bracelets we sold, those we still have, and the 600 rubber straps I just ordered.

Keeping the end-links compatible will likely make my life (and those of my customers) easier.

Plus, although I like the current v.2 design enough, I think it will be improved by a slightly longer lug length, and lug-tips that aren't quite as thin.

See my comment above, about the lugs being turned downward.

Or not. No matter what I decide, someone will disagree with the decision.

Let the line to start wailing form on my right, gnashing of teeth, to my left...


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> I _had_ direct messaging turned off. Apparently the new forum software doesn't allow for that, or if it does, I don't know how to disable the ability to receive PM's.
> 
> Regardless, email and / or the contact form of the website (which is just email with an extra step) is a better way to reach me, as I can easily search, sort, and track emails, which I can't do with direct messages (seriously, for the love of God, why do people think that's a good way to request support? But I digress...)
> 
> ...


Chris-

I really don't know why you insist on beating around the bush. Just give it to me straight man.

Yeah, no way we have enough lead time. I could design and launch a microsite fairly quickly, but solving for the coinciding timelines of making a sensible backend connection to payments, promoting the site and getting the 50 buy-ins prior to production just ain't gonna happen in that short a timeframe.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I will hold on to that glimmer of hope that at some point the Amphions you make in conjunction with the rest of the Commandos will happen and us Amphion fanatics will jump on board.

Onward.....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Chris-
> 
> I really don't know why you insist on beating around the bush. Just give it to me straight man.
> 
> ...


It's been said that timing is everything.

So...this is hard to explain, or perhaps just hard for me to offer any sort of certainty about it, but here goes...

When I order new Subs production, I typically ask for 500 or 600 cases to be made, and assembled in batches of 250-300. So, by the end of February, we should be starting on a new production of 500-600 cases, with delivery of the first 250-300 targeted for 4 months later, in June-July.

I don't know for sure when we'll want the next 250-300. I mean, look around - try to predict what the economy will be like in 30 days, much less 6-8 months. If you were me, would you be willing to bet the farm you'll be right?

The point is, if you need more time, take it. Shoot for the release after this next release, but...understand that I don't know when that will be. I don't know when we'll be delivering those 50 Amphions you might get 50 dudes to buy, and from my experience, getting 50 people to buy something with no delivery target is hard to do, even for me.

Like I said - timing is everything, and in my business, things often need to come together quickly, or they don't happen.

If we have the cases / bracelets made, and the economy comes roaring back to life, with a big spike in demand for the Subs, we could be ordering them for delivery sooner, rather than later. Or, the opposite scenario could play out.

Looking at my tentative production plan for the next few Subs releases, we might make more of the Amphion Commando later this year, or we might try to sub in something else - maybe one of the other versions we haven't made in a while, or a new version.

I don't really know, because it's really hard to plan which models we'll make that far in advance. This is part art, part science (like so much of what I do).

We'll probably try to keep the two best-selling Subs versions in more-or-less constant production (until we realize we let production outpace demand), and supplement those by rotating in other versions, on schedules ranging from every 6 months to every 18-24 (if we make more Commandos this year, it'll be ~24).

Also - Dan and I are planning to go through all our spare parts, to see what watches we can assemble with them. I know we have some Amphion dials in there. Whatever we assemble will be put up for sale on the NTH website. We're trying to do that soon, before the Tropics come in.

If there are 3 dudes here who are seriously jonesing for an Amphion, and we can assemble the 3 versions you 3 dudes want, and you guys have your money ready - problem solved.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Haven't done this in a while...

Last Vanguard in the world (maybe forever) - NTH Vanguard No Date

Last Scorpène Nomad With Date (probably forever) - 인투와치

Last Bahia no-date (maybe forever) - 인투와치

Last Näcken Vintage Black no Date (for a good while) - Näcken - Vintage Black

Last Näcken Vintage Black with Date (for a good while) - NTH Nacken Vintage W/ Date

Last Oberon II with date (maybe forever) - NTH Oberon II Date

Last Tikuna, With Date (probably forever) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-tikuna-date

Last DevilRay, Blue (for at least 6 months) - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nthdevilraybluenodate?_pos=2&_sid=523e64e16&_ss=r

If you want one of those, I'd strongly suggest getting it before someone else does, since it could be the last one you see for a while, if ever.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Keeping parts' interchange-ability was something I asked for, so we don't have to stock two different sets of bezel inserts, dials, handsets, crystals, or crowns.
> 
> I didn't really stop to think about the end-links not being compatible, until the last couple of days, when I started to think about all the BOR bracelets we sold, those we still have, and the 600 rubber straps I just ordered.
> 
> ...


Well, fine. Just as long.as you.make them In tantalum. Elshan's doing tantalum cases now. It's the new "it" metal...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Well, fine. Just as long.as you.make them In tantalum. Elshan's doing tantalum cases now. It's the new "it" metal...


Wait...is that a real thing???

When did "surgical grade stainless" steel stop being cool?

How long was I asleep???

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When people ask why I hate changing straps or bracelets...










We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, this...










We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> So...I'm thinking about asking my guys to lengthen the v.2 case to 48mm, if that means we can use the same bracelets.
> 
> Thoughts?


I like the shorter 47 mm length if it fits the proportions of the case. That being said, making them 48 mm and thus compatible with the v1 Subs is likely less headache for you.

Edit: I just read Doc's post on making the case proportions better with a 48 mm length, so I'm all for it.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Wait...is that a real thing???
> 
> When did "surgical grade stainless" steel stop being cool?
> 
> ...


1) Tantalum is more expensive than gold right now

2) Tantalum is a pyrophoric metal. Which means that it has a propensity to ignite and burn like ...something really really hot, I guess... under the right conditions (specifically in particulate form). Probably not a problem when you're just wearing a hunk of it. Significantly more of a problem for anyone who wants to machine it (like, ummm, people fabricating watch components, for example).

Tantalum is so great at @#$%ing things up when it gets grumpy that in my previous professional life we experimented with tantalum in advanced warhead designs.

Reactivity Profile
TANTALUM dust reacts rapidly with oxidizing agents (oxygen, fluorine, chlorine). Highly flammable in air, igniting spontaneously when dry. (Lewis, 3rd Ed, 1993). Dissolves in molten bases (such as sodium hydroxide). Insoluble in aqueous bases. Insoluble in acids except hydrofluoric acid and fuming sulfuric acid. Tantalum in bulk form (bar, sheet, etc.) is much less reactive than it is in powdered form.

Love Elshan to death, but I recommend letting this particular fad pass, Doc.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

How many different materials has Zelos used in one watch? I'm betting it's at least four. Wasn't there was one that had meteorite, mokume gane, bronze, and ceramic?

It's almost like a contest to see if Elshan can use more materials in a single watch than Squale could use fonts on the Giramondo.










We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...I'm thinking about asking my guys to lengthen the v.2 case to 48mm, if that means we can use the same bracelets.
> 
> Thoughts?


Well since you asked, go with the 48mm case. Recall the WOT about the number of SKU's, keeping things interchangeable will make your life MUCH easier... And people who think they can tell the difference of 1mm, really??


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> Well since you asked, go with the 48mm case. Recall the WOT about the number of SKU's, keeping things interchangeable will make your life MUCH easier... And people who think they can tell the difference of 1mm, really??


How can I forget? That was one of my favorite WOT's.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> There have been 6 different versions of the "Amphion" - Commando, Dark Gilt (applied markers), Modern Black (applied markers, white lume), Vintage Black (printed markers, sandpaper texture dial), Vintage Blue (same as Vintage Black, except it's blue, duh), and Vintage Gilt (gilt relief dial, like the Barracuda Vintage Black).
> 
> My guess is we might do another version with applied markers at some point. Maybe a sunburst blue-and-gilt version.


That sounds like my Barracuda/Amphion mod that has become my most worn watch.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Omegafanboy said:


> That sounds like my Barracuda/Amphion mod that has become my most worn watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one really is something special.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> How many different materials has Zelos used in one watch? I'm betting it's at least four. Wasn't there was one that had meteorite, mokume gane, bronze, and ceramic?
> 
> It's almost like a contest to see if Elshan can use more materials in a single watch than Squale could use fonts on the Giramondo.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Chris. I can't un-see that now. Just like I can't un-see the (mis-)alignment of the square lume markers. I mean, I get what they were trying to do. But as my spirit totem Jeff Goldblum once said in one of many of his starring roles as Jeff Goldblum, they were so focused on whether they could that they never stopped to ask if they should.

Edit: I know, I know. You don't talk smack on other brands in this forum. 'Nuff said.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> It's been said that timing is everything.
> 
> So...this is hard to explain, or perhaps just hard for me to offer any sort of certainty about it, but here goes...
> 
> ...


Yep, timing is everything. Whether you're building physical products or digital products.

If the timing was right, it would be a fun plan to execute with communication, coordination and clear expectation. Even trying to shoot for release after next would be tough. Not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze.

I'm definitely at least one dude down for an Amphion. So if you guys do assemble something and a few others are interested, or you're going to throw them up for sale on the site, I'm down. Keep me posted on your convos with Dan and what you might throw together. Out of all the models, my list in priority of jonesing is: 1. Vintage Black, 2. Modern Black, 3. Dark Gilt, 4. Vintage Gilt. Any would do, money ready.

Anyone else? 2 other dudes?

Baffles me that with all the fanfare of the 5517, and the fact that Gnomon can't keep Steinhart OVM's in stock for more than 1-2 weeks, that the unique designs and builds you guys have come up with would not fly off the shelves. Also baffles me that I did not order one of these with my Skipjack, when they were available. Hindsight, good times.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Omegafanboy said:


> That sounds like my Barracuda/Amphion mod that has become my most worn watch.


Are those aftermarket sword hands? Or did you cannibalize an Amphion gilt?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Avo said:


> Are those aftermarket sword hands? Or did you cannibalize an Amphion gilt?


They were aftermarket from eBay.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Thanks, Chris. I can't un-see that now. Just like I can't un-see the (mis-)alignment of the square lume markers. I mean, I get what they were trying to do. But as my spirit totem Jeff Goldblum once said in one of many of his starring roles as Jeff Goldblum, they were so focused on whether they could that they never stopped to ask if they should.
> 
> Edit: I know, I know. You don't talk smack on other brands in this forum. 'Nuff said.


I make an exception for that model, because of having so many fonts. Seriously, I think that's 6 fonts, NOT counting the one used on the date wheel.

But now that you point those markers out...

I'm not sure they're mis-aligned. The angle of that shot makes it hard to tell for sure, but I think all the square indices are oriented not according to the lines of the minute track (rotating 30 degrees every hour, to point the line or marker towards the center of the dial), but rather I think all the squares are just oriented top-facing-up, with no rotation at all, like many numeric dials, wherein all the numbers are right-side-up.

If that's correct, then the only places those markers would look "right" (if "right" means perpendicular to or otherwise aligned with the corresponding mark on the minute track) would be the 4 places where the triangles are - 3, 6, 9, and 12. Square markers aren't going to look well-aligned at the other 8, where they put them, even if they are in fact perfectly placed.

So...yeah, that one seems not-entirely-well-thought-out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Yep, timing is everything. Whether you're building physical products or digital products.
> 
> If the timing was right, it would be a fun plan to execute with communication, coordination and clear expectation. Even trying to shoot for release after next would be tough. Not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze.
> 
> ...


Assuming we were to make more of the Amphion, here's the thought process I'll likely go through before deciding which to make (first)...

1. Commando -

We still have all the dials, handsets and bezels to make another 50, and when I think there's demand, I like to use the parts we have sitting on the shelf. If I think we can assemble and sell those 50 pieces faster than we'd sell 50 pieces of some other version, that's an easy decision to make...

2. A completely new version, maybe something like the Barracuda Blue, but with sword hands -

When faced with a decision to make more of something for which there's uncertain demand, or making something entirely new, I tend to think making something new has more upside potential and less downside risk than making more of something we've already made.

If I think a new version will sell better than an existing version, I'll go new. Or, if I think the opposite, then I won't...

3. Probably one of the models with applied markers, either the original Modern Black (stainless trim on hands and markers, with white lume) or (more likely) the Dark Gilt (gilt trim, C3 lume) -

I think the appetite for the sandpaper dial texture of the Vintage Black, and that "Old Radium" (faux patina) lume has been waning for a while, and we made 55 of those originally, so I don't see the point in making more now.

And since we just did 100 pieces of the gilt-relief dial version last year, and since it's been years since we made an Amphion with applied markers, I think either of those makes more sense than making more of the Vintage Black or the Vintage Gilt.

Since we made 55 of the Modern Black with the first production, and only 20 of the Dark Gilt, and because my gut tells me the Dark Gilt would sell better than the Modern Black, the DG is more likely than the MB.

4. Vintage Blue - Not gonna happen, for the same reason the Vintage Black is unlikely, plus the fact that the blue wasn't as popular.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just updated a spreadsheet I have, with the to-date production numbers for all Subs versions. Some interesting (at least to me) insights...

There have been 43 different Subs versions produced, with a total production count of about 4100 pieces, since we launched NTH in April 2016.

The number of pieces produced of each version ranges from 10 to 650. The average is a shade over 95 per version.

But the breakdown of no-dates to with-dates is almost 2-to-1 in favor of the no-dates, in stark contrast to what most of the industry seems to produce, and what the market professes to want (judging by the polls I've done, which is part of why I don't really trust polls).*

I'm fond of saying something which might be stupid, "Anyone can sell 100 of anything, at almost any price." In my observation of the watch industry, it's largely true, at least inasmuch as I think 100 pieces seems to be the point at which I see the sales momentum for many microbrands' models begin to drop off quickly.

The fact that the Subs' average production per model is 95 pieces would seem to support that idea, and also validate my efforts to avoid over-production of any one version.

But, then again, while the average is 95 pieces produced per version, the median (mid-point of all numbers) is 55, and the mode (most frequently occurring number) is 50.

There were 7 different versions of which we produced 25 or less. And for some of those, I literally - not figuratively - had to give some pieces away, just to get rid of them.

So far, there have "only" been 16 versions of which we've made 100 or more.

So...of the 43, 20 are "somewhere in the middle" - not top-sellers, but not the dregs, either.

As much as I think selling over 4k of the Subs in 5 years is pretty respectable, it's humbling to see how many times we struggled to sell 50 pieces of something quickly enough that I wanted to make another 50. 

NTH seems to be one of the better-known microbrands. Think about the typical pre-launch or recently launched micro, trying to figure out how to sell 300-500 pieces of some model, of which they only have 3-5 versions - with plans to produce 60 to 167 pieces per version.

This is why there's such rampant discounting by so many brands, both during pre-order and post-production. This is also why I resist requests to make more of some Subs versions, or more of just about anything. If it took us more than 6 months to sell the first 50, I don't want to hear about the next 50.

When I say we made 50 or 55 of something already, and I don't want to make more, even if that was 5 years ago, perhaps this info helps explain why, especially if you lump versions together, like all the Amphions, all the Barracudas, etc, and you can easily see that as a group, the Amphions don't sell as well as the Barracudas or Nackens.

I can look at my spreadsheet, and see what sorts of dial patterns work out the best (or worst), what handsets, what colorways, etc. Just because we may have sold out of something, that definitely doesn't mean there's enough demand to rationalize making more, even if there are a dozen guys clamoring for them.

*Side note, regarding the date/no-date thing - Many of the models we've produced were no-date only, which could somewhat account for the fact that we've produced 2x as many no-dates. But over the last two years, as we've been producing the date/no-date models in equal numbers, I've been noticing that the no-date versions almost always sell out first, so I still don't trust the polls.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> Assuming we were to make more of the Amphion, here's the thought process I'll likely go through before deciding which to make (first)...
> 
> 1. Commando -
> 
> ...


Love the thought process, thanks for sharing. I could easily become a fan of the Commando and snag one of those or be surprised with another running of DG Amphion. And I might really be into #2. Excited to see which way or ways you roll!


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

tregan13 said:


> Love the thought process, thanks for sharing. I could easily become a fan of the Commando and snag one of those or be surprised with another running of DG Amphion. And I might really be into #2. Excited to see which way or ways you roll!


Have you checked out the Kiger-NTH Red Ronin? KIGER Milsub

I think Mark has one or two left...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Love the thought process, thanks for sharing. I could easily become a fan of the Commando and snag one of those or be surprised with another running of DG Amphion. And I might really be into #2. Excited to see which way or ways you roll!





Twehttam said:


> Have you checked out the Kiger-NTH Red Ronin? KIGER Milsub
> 
> I think Mark has one or two left...


I didn't event think about the Kiger, but yes, that's a good idea. If you're seriously jonesing for an Amphion, check out the Kiger Red Ronin, inspired by the Oman Submariners, and the legend of the 47 Ronin.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

Twehttam said:


> Have you checked out the Kiger-NTH Red Ronin? KIGER Milsub
> 
> I think Mark has one or two left...


Yes, thanks for mentioning! Talked with Mark today. I have an Amphion insert too, so a match made in "must have now" heaven. Still doesn't let Chris off the hook with the Amphion though.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

tregan13 said:


> Yes, thanks for mentioning! Talked with Mark today. I have an Amphion insert too, so a match made in "must have now" heaven. Still doesn't let Chris off the hook with the Amphion though.


I was on the exact opposite train! I wanted (still kinda do) a kiger insert for my amphion vintage gilt. The kiger is a total sleeper in my opinion, I wear and enjoy it much more than I expected. I was a little on the fence about getting it, but now it's easily my #1


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I was on the exact opposite train! I wanted (still kinda do) a kiger insert for my amphion vintage gilt. The kiger is a total sleeper in my opinion, I wear and enjoy it much more than I expected. I was a little on the fence about getting it, but now it's easily my #1


Uhm...we do have those inserts for sale...

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of insert swaps, just saw this on Facebook, and I think it looks surprisingly good...










We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

tregan13 said:


> Yes, thanks for mentioning! Talked with Mark today. I have an Amphion insert too, so a match made in "must have now" heaven. Still doesn't let Chris off the hook with the Amphion though.


I would absolutely own the Kiger edition if it didn't say "kiger" on the dial. Funny how a little thing can put you off a watch you would otherwise find perfect. Actually it's a goood thing. If not for the ability to nit pick, I would own way more watches.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Uhm...we do have those inserts for sale...
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


Ah, yea I know. It's just that I haven't gotten around to ordering it yet. I tend to jump from hobby to hobby, and right now watch modding has taken a bit of a back seat to my current obsession..



3-1-1 said:


> I would absolutely own the Kiger edition if it didn't say "kiger" on the dial. Funny how a little thing can put you off a watch you would otherwise find perfect. Actually it's a goood thing. If not for the ability to nit pick, I would own way more watches.


just out of curiosity - why does this thing in particular put you off?


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

I probably missed this, but are all future releases of the Subs going to be with the new case? Or are there one or two batches with the v1 case?


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> just out of curiosity - why does this thing in particular put you off?


Just quirky. I'm sure Mr. Kiger is a very nice fellow but I don't need his name on the dial of my watch. If he wants a credit for his hand in the design he is welcomed on the caseback I suppose. But if it's an NTH branded watch, then I just assume have the NTH logo on there.

It's not the first and won't be the last watch that was ruined for me by a name or logo on the dial. See a bunch of the Ali-X homage watches. Blwrx? HimQ? Hroudland? What the hell. EMG / HKEd is a major offender because of how much I liked the watches. Got rid of both the Horizons meca-q Monaco homage and the Nemo diver both based on 12-o'clock logo alone, and both of which were otherwise excellent watches. The "EMG" was just so plain (complete fail and lack of imagination on the graphic design end - like someone did it at home with a label maker or stencil) and all I could see is Star Trek when I looked at the HKEd logo on the Nemo. And I hate Star Trek.

Closer to home here in this thread, the L&H red Orthos was one of my all-time favorite watches ... but that dog! Struggled for a long time with the decision but finally flipped it. "Why are you letting that dog bother you?" I'd ask myself. Never came up with a good answer. Just didn't like it and couldn't ignore it. I would love to see that model and color way make a return with a big ole N-T-H in place of the pup. But alas... I don't have 50 friends.

I know much of the above probably makes no sense. But somewhere in my brain it does.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

All the Amphion talk inspired my grab this a.m. ...








Doc: Would you mind sharing how many of these AVBs are out in the wild? 
I figure there has to be 50 or <50.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> Speaking of insert swaps, just saw this on Facebook, and I think it looks surprisingly good...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. The commando insert is maybe the most versatile. I can't think of too many subs it wouldn't look good on. I don't currently have one I am looking to put it on, but may just have to pick one up for someday.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3-1-1 said:


> I know much of the above probably makes no sense. But somewhere in my brain it does.


Actually it makes sense to me. There are SO many watches, that there's no need to get one that you don't like for ANY reason. I think some folks get defensive when you don't like the watches they love, because it put into question their own reasoning. BUT if you transition the debate into other things: choice of drink, food, shoes, car (OK, maybe not car, that can also get very parochial), people seem to understand.

I'm happy for the people who find something they like, even if it's not my choice.

On the same tack, I find it curious when someone won't get more than one version of a particular brand. If that brand has everything you like, and the others fall short in some aspect, then I think one may be doing themselves a disservice.....


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3-1-1 said:


> I would absolutely own the Kiger edition if it didn't say "kiger" on the dial. Funny how a little thing can put you off a watch you would otherwise find perfect. Actually it's a goood thing. If not for the ability to nit pick, I would own way more watches.


I hear that. It's one reason why I couldn't bond with my CWard Trident but, in this case, Mark is an OG bro. He's BSH ⚓. This also is v4 or v5 of his subs. Plus, Doc was sneaky and got some creative NTH branding in there ?.










I recently moved my Red Ronin on due to my 5.9"/15cm wrist...










Of the 5 subs I've owned, it was my favorite.

?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> I probably missed this, but are all future releases of the Subs going to be with the new case? Or are there one or two batches with the v1 case?


I don't know yet. We'll see.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Just quirky. I'm sure Mr. Kiger is a very nice fellow but I don't need his name on the dial of my watch. If he wants a credit for his hand in the design he is welcomed on the caseback I suppose. But if it's an NTH branded watch, then I just assume have the NTH logo on there.
> 
> It's not the first and won't be the last watch that was ruined for me by a name or logo on the dial. See a bunch of the Ali-X homage watches. Blwrx? HimQ? Hroudland? What the hell. EMG / HKEd is a major offender because of how much I liked the watches. Got rid of both the Horizons meca-q Monaco homage and the Nemo diver both based on 12-o'clock logo alone, and both of which were otherwise excellent watches. The "EMG" was just so plain (complete fail and lack of imagination on the graphic design end - like someone did it at home with a label maker or stencil) and all I could see is Star Trek when I looked at the HKEd logo on the Nemo. And I hate Star Trek.
> 
> ...


The dog logo was very divisive, and I think stopped too many people from buying an L&H.

That said, I still get people asking me to bring it back. Some folks loved it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> All the Amphion talk inspired my grab this a.m. ...
> View attachment 15662503
> 
> Doc: Would you mind sharing how many of these AVBs are out in the wild?
> I figure there has to be 50 or <50.


55


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> That said, I still get people asking me to bring it back. Some folks loved it.


No doubt


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> I hear that. It's one reason why I couldn't bond with my CWard Trident but, in this case, Mark is an OG bro. He's BSH ⚓. This also is v4 or v5 of his subs. Plus, Doc was sneaky and got some creative NTH branding in there ?.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, the inclusion of the NTH logo wasn't my doing, it was Mark's. He did all the graphic design work on the Ronin.

I thought it was a cool way to co-brand it, and appreciated Mark doing that.

When we first started discussing the collaboration, I likened it to guys who customize Harley-Davidsons, like Jesse James, suggesting the final result would be "NTH, by Kiger", sort of like the Blancpain x Hodinkee collabs.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

I have to say Doc, that I found the L&H brand before NTH and I loved 'Sparky'. Being an insane dogaphile, dog-aphile, etc. I am still smitten w/ all the L&H models. If you do bring back any L&H I'd vote for the NTH logo in it's current position and a small Sparky where you put the model name.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Agreed. The commando insert is maybe the most versatile. I can't think of too many subs it wouldn't look good on. I don't currently have one I am looking to put it on, but may just have to pick one up for someday.


I honestly wasn't sure the Commando bezel insert would work, and I'm surprised at its versatility.

I wanted to do something vaguely similar to the Tudor P01, both in color scheme and in stated purpose - the back-story of the P01 being that the original was some sort of design exercise for a proposed military-issue watch, but one which never came to fruition.

Calling it the "Commando", and giving it a combo 12-hour / countdown mission-timer bezel, something we'd never done before, seemed "right", but also felt like we were risking people not liking the fact that the insert is (not literally) bare steel, with no lume in the markings, other than the pip.

I've seen that bezel paired with other Subs' versions, but of all of them, I think the Tikuna combo is the best I've seen so far, in that they look like they were meant to go together. IMO, that combo enhances the vintage feel, and looks like a totally new version, as opposed to looking like a one-off.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Omegafanboy said:


> That sounds like my Barracuda/Amphion mod that has become my most worn watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I absolutely Love this!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mid-day observance...

I was just told we delivered the worst customer service experience someone's had in years.

That's an accomplishment.

Short version - a guy is complaining about a watch he recently received. His complaint comes after he removed all the protective wrappers and sized the bracelet. What he's complaining about is either completely imaginary (I'm literally unsure if I even see it in his pics), or if it is "real", it's well within our QC standards. 

We've told him the watch isn't returnable for replacement or refund if it isn't in as-delivered condition, nor is it repairable under warranty, which only covers mechanical malfunction, nor are we willing to replace the offending part, even at his expense.

I know I'm weird in some ways. I know this customer, like many other people, and in fact many businesses, would think that we should always assume a posture of trying to please the customer, no matter what, even when the product or service was delivered exactly as promised, and it was perfect (or close enough as to be considered perfect), and thus ought to be in line with the customer's expectations.

The customer is king, as the man once said, after all.

But whenever some interaction with a customer results in them going away dissatisfied, it almost always is a scenario in which there's literally nothing "wrong" with the product we delivered, in the sense that it's "perfect" according to our QC standards. And thus there's no "support" that we can offer, other than a return for refund, assuming the condition of the goods hasn't been altered.

We can't fix what isn't broken, and so going through the pointless exercise of trying to mitigate that situation in some way which will result in an outcome the customer likes just seems, well, pointless.

The only way to resolve this to the customer's satisfaction would be to allow the return of worn goods, and / or for us to agree to keep shipping replacements to the customer, until he finds one he deems acceptable. To do that, we'd have to increase our prices to offset the added cost of those policies, and no one wants us to raise prices.

So, the only possible outcome here, which we must accept, is that some small percentage of sales will result in a dissatisfied customer.

I tried to explain that we're not willing to have him send it back for a part to be replaced, even at his expense, which was his request. That's partly because of the risk of loss in shipment, but more likely, the risk that he'll find something else "wrong" on its return to him, or that he'll claim we damaged it in some way while it was in our possession.

Either of which seems quite likely at this point, since there's nothing wrong with the part he's asking us to replace, and he's already aggravated with our refusal to surrender. In my experience, guys who find one imaginary or microscopic fault always find another, and angry guys always find ways to remain angry.

What kills me is that with every sale, we make 9 different attempts (yes, 9) to get customers to inspect their items carefully on delivery, prior to altering their condition, and to contact us immediately if they find anything amiss.

In this case, with this customer, it was 10 attempts, as we had an email exchange about it prior to his order shipping, in which he mentioned two other recent purchases, from other brands, which he found unacceptable, and thus he was asking us to do "extra QC". Those sorts of requests tend to be a very strong indicator of out-of-control OCD.

The policy, with that advisory to inspect goods on delivery, is clearly stated on the website. I assume no one reads it pre-purchase, so it's also reiterated on the plastic card that comes with every watch, and on the packing slip our warehouse inserts into every shipment.

I also assume no one bothers to look at either of those, which is why it's also reiterated in the 2 emails we send when an order ships, and the 2 email updates sent on the day of delivery (one when the watch is out for delivery, and one when it's delivered), and the 2 text messages the customer receives that day (ditto).

In those email messages, it's right at the top. It's literally the second line of text in the email.

The text messages are so short that it's the only content in the message, other than the delivery status update.

Our system shows this guy not only received all those messages, he at least opened, if not read three out of the four emails. He also admits that he remembers our mention of it in our earlier email exchange, and that he read it on the website before making his purchase.

And yet, despite his apparently understanding the policy, after seeing it at least 5, if not 7 or more times, he's aghast that we're sticking to it, rather than moving heaven and earth to solve his problem with the watch, which I'm not even sure exists, or at worst, is well within our QC standards.

Worst. Experience. In years.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> Just quirky. I'm sure Mr. Kiger is a very nice fellow but I don't need his name on the dial of my watch. If he wants a credit for his hand in the design he is welcomed on the caseback I suppose. But if it's an NTH branded watch, then I just assume have the NTH logo on there.
> 
> It's not the first and won't be the last watch that was ruined for me by a name or logo on the dial. See a bunch of the Ali-X homage watches. Blwrx? HimQ? Hroudland? What the hell. EMG / HKEd is a major offender because of how much I liked the watches. Got rid of both the Horizons meca-q Monaco homage and the Nemo diver both based on 12-o'clock logo alone, and both of which were otherwise excellent watches. The "EMG" was just so plain (complete fail and lack of imagination on the graphic design end - like someone did it at home with a label maker or stencil) and all I could see is Star Trek when I looked at the HKEd logo on the Nemo. And I hate Star Trek.
> 
> ...





dmjonez said:


> Actually it makes sense to me. There are SO many watches, that there's no need to get one that you don't like for ANY reason. I think some folks get defensive when you don't like the watches they love, because it put into question their own reasoning. BUT if you transition the debate into other things: choice of drink, food, shoes, car (OK, maybe not car, that can also get very parochial), people seem to understand.
> 
> I'm happy for the people who find something they like, even if it's not my choice.
> 
> On the same tack, I find it curious when someone won't get more than one version of a particular brand. If that brand has everything you like, and the others fall short in some aspect, then I think one may be doing themselves a disservice.....


Ah, yea no to each his own and all that.. not asking to be judgy or anything, or try to convert anyone. I think it's funny how we can obsess over small details, and over how _different_ these details are for different people. One of the things that I like about micros is that the name on the dial usually represents a person or a small group of people with drive and passion, whereas, when I read Mido or so, I only see Swatch Group Inc. Of course my own blind spot here is that I am happily wearing The North Face jumpers, Levi's jeans and Nike shoes ?‍♂(also, I probably wouldn't snuff at an Omega, also from the Swatch stable...) So I don't really care if it's a real name, a made up name or whatever on the dial. I'll only draw the line at whacky dog logos ?

On the HKEd / EMG- what really turned me off, and what I cannot get over is the chunkiness of the watch. It's like 15mm or so, in relation to the smaller diameter it looks very top heavy to me. That is my personal pet peeve that I cannot overlook


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## SethBullock (Feb 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Mid-day observance...
> 
> I was just told we delivered the worst customer service experience someone's had in years.
> 
> ...


Sounds like he wants a 5k+ watch for <1k. I hope he has learned to temper his expectations.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> Mid-day observance...
> 
> I was just told we delivered the worst customer service experience someone's had in years.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the type of person that is never happy with their meal and sends it back to the kitchen multiple times. Just send him links to design and build your own watch sites. That will smooth things over.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SethBullock said:


> Sounds like he wants a 5k+ watch for <1k. I hope he has learned to temper his expectations.





tregan13 said:


> Sounds like the type of person that is never happy with their meal and sends it back to the kitchen multiple times. Just send him links to design and build your own watch sites. That will smooth things over.


This happens a few times per year. My guestimate is that one in every 500 watches we ship will result in this sort of exchange with a customer.

After 8 years doing this, and over 6,000 watches sold, the pattern has become unmistakable, and thus predictable. I know that A, B, C, D ultimately leads to Z. I don't have to get as far as D to know where we're going to end up, nor do I need to go through the rest of the alphabet. So now I typically just cut to the chase, and get there immediately.

By which I mean - rather than entertaining a long, back-and-forth email exchange, patiently trying to explain my reasoning in every response, I just let the customer know the options available, right off the bat:

1. If the watch is still in as-delivered condition, return it for a refund. Replacement or repair (at anyone's expense - yours, or ours) are not options if the complaint is about something within our QC standards.

2. If it's no longer returnable for refund, then keep it, and wear it. Try not to obsess over miniscule, if not entirely imaginary imperfections. Instead, try to enjoy it.

3. Sell it to someone else (hopefully someone who isn't going to obsess over miniscule, if not entirely imaginary imperfections).

I know the customer isn't going to go away happy. I know that no matter how I word that message, he's going to perceive it as rude. There's no putting perfume on that particular pig, so I don't bother any more. Life's too short, and I ain't getting any younger.

The best I can hope for is that the customer eventually realizes he was in the wrong, learns from his mistake, and makes the necessary adjustments to both his expectations, and his actions, in the future.

SEMI-FUNNY / IRONIC SIDE-NOTE HERE -

I had one of these with the v.1 DevilRay. A guy posted wrist-shots and effusive praise of the watch on social media for three weeks, then emailed me to complain about the $hltty quality, with high-magnification images showing the microscopic imperfections.

I was, as you no doubt guessed, unmoved. And he was, as you surely guessed, displeased by my being unmoved.

That guy was just recently trying to sell that very same watch - and asking $100 more than he paid for it, more than 2 years later. As you might imagine, he was quite complimentary about it in his sales listing, going on about its quality, and its performance, and its comfort, and the bang-for-the-buck it represents.

I wish I could say that's the only time I've seen things play out that way, but it isn't. He's at least the fourth or fifth guy I've seen trying to sell one of my watches for more than he paid, after trying to tell me that there was something visibly (and "obviously") wrong with it, something I should fix under warranty, after he'd been wearing it.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

A picture of a watch as a pause between all the W.o.T. ;-)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Don't anybody play like you don't love the WOT's.

Y'all know you do.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

It would be a cool feature if every 5 or 10 pages, the forum could auto generate a post with all of the pictures from the preceding pages. Wall of Pix. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just 'cause.


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

I have played around with a lot of different strap options, but have gone back to this NATO. I feel like it suits the watch perfectly.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Tossing this out here, WRT Commando bezel insert. Might not be the most fetching to some, but by far, this is one of my most fav watches with this easy mod. If it ever bothered me enough to get more matchy-matchy, I'd paint the red bits of the bezel with black.










That said, I still have the original Nomad insert. And an OG Scorpene. And just on the off chance I ever want to go blue, a Vanguard 12hr, as well... (and I had to stop myself from ordering both the Catalina and blue Scorpene inserts... maybe I have a problem...?)

I actually like the Kiger logo. Has a real vintage vibe to it that I very much admire. Also thought the electric dog L&H logo was pretty cool, too. Current NTH logo... I'd call it "inoffensive" - neither like nor dislike, but it certainly doesn't detract any from the watches it graces.

Some people just want to see the world burn; some people will never get the customer service they think they deserve. The latter... I have to think they have never worked retail/service industry in their life.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

Happy Friday all. Interesting week on my hunt for an Amphion that eventually led me to Mark Kiger's Red Ronin, powered by NTH. He still has a few left. Not sure which Ronin I'll be, 45 or even 46, but excited to see in the mail over the weekend.

A fun photoshop concept of how I might turn this into an NTH Kiger Milsub TR Amphion mod. If this is your wrist, thank you and please don't sue me for infringement, I borrowed your pic from the "Show off your Kiger" thread.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> If it ever bothered me enough to get more matchy-matchy, I'd paint the red bits of the bezel with black.


Or perhaps get a full red seconds hand. This looks amazing.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

tregan13 said:


> Or perhaps get a full red seconds hand. This looks amazing.


Thought about it, especially in relation to the Ltd Ed R versions of the Sinn 556 models, but nah - sometimes good enough is good enough...


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> Thought about it, especially in relation to the Ltd Ed R versions of the Sinn 556 models, but nah - sometimes good enough is good enough...


Says the guy with a fistful o' bezels! 
Now I'm not sure which I like better. Your Scorpene Commando or the Commando Tikuna. Both strong offerings. But I'm afraid the blue/gold barracuda milsub at post #5,192 beats them all. These naming conventions could get complicated. Feeling a bit inadequate with my stock subs.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Still my favorite NTH sub. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

tregan13 said:


> Happy Friday all. Interesting week on my hunt for an Amphion that eventually led me to Mark Kiger's Red Ronin, powered by NTH. He still has a few left. Not sure which Ronin I'll be, 45 or even 46, but excited to see in the mail over the weekend.
> 
> A fun photoshop concept of how I might turn this into an NTH Kiger Milsub TR Amphion mod. If this is your wrist, thank you and please don't sue me for infringement, I borrowed your pic from the "Show off your Kiger" thread.
> 
> View attachment 15664862


That looks really great...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

tregan13 said:


> Happy Friday all. Interesting week on my hunt for an Amphion that eventually led me to Mark Kiger's Red Ronin, powered by NTH. He still has a few left. Not sure which Ronin I'll be, 45 or even 46, but excited to see in the mail over the weekend.
> 
> A fun photoshop concept of how I might turn this into an NTH Kiger Milsub TR Amphion mod. If this is your wrist, thank you and please don't sue me for infringement, I borrowed your pic from the "Show off your Kiger" thread.
> 
> View attachment 15664862


Kiger rules. Good choice.

I spent some time pondering which bezel I'd prefer if given the choice from the jump. Couldn't muster up much conviction either way. Certainly not $50 worth of conviction.

Plus, leaves me the flimsy excuse to get another Amphion model someday to have one with fully indexed bezel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Looking forward to seeing the new Sub case as a real product and not just a drawing. I like the current version with no crown guards but, the new one with guards looks good, too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So, updated v.2 Subs design. I'm pretty sure this is "final".

Changes - lug length is now 48, which allows us to use the same end-links, making all the bracelets compatible. Also, we widened the lug-tips slightly, which makes the case shape a little less tapered, less "fat in the mid-section".

Not to beat a horse that didn't need to be killed in the first place, but you may note the mid-case actually measures 39mm between the lugs, going from 12-to-6, which is why some bracelets made for 38 or 39mm Seiko cases will fit the Subs.

It's actually slightly thinner measuring from 2-to-8, at 38.5mm, which allows the bezel to overhang the mid-case a bit, making it easier to grip, and possibly pleasing some of the guys who wanted something smaller than 40, though, probably not, given the bezel remains 40mm in diameter, and the lug length is unchanged from the v.1.

Dial, handset, bezel insert and crown dimensions are all the same as the v.1, so all those parts will be compatible.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> Changes - lug length is now 48, which allows us to use the same end-links, making all the bracelets compatible.
> 
> View attachment 15665796


Looks phenomenal. Two questions:

1. Same end links... bracelets the same as well?

2. Any plans to sell the crown guards separately for those of us who want Nacken in the new case but don't want to buy the whole watch?

Ok so actually one question and one bear poke.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

What models are planned for the first run of the V2 cases? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Peteagus said:


> Any plans to sell the crown guards separately for those of us who want Nacken in the new case but don't want to buy the whole watch?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> Looks phenomenal. Two questions:
> 
> 1. Same end links... bracelets the same as well?
> 
> ...


Same bracelets.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> What models are planned for the first run of the V2 cases?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Not sure yet.

We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Not sure yet.
> 
> We replaced Karen's usual talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she notices...


Got any new dial variations in the works?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Got any new dial variations in the works?


Sort of. Not exactly.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Sounds like one more NTH Sub will join the collection in 2021. Waiting eagerly for the v2 case.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Normally I'm a little bit more switched on and change out my nicer watches for something a little more industrial when at work. I have a range of work watches that I'm not too concerned about banging about...

Got caught out today...









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 15665796


That's haute.

If you make an Amphion Dark Gilt with that case, I'll buy one. 49 friends sold separately.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)




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## sculldogg86 (Feb 14, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> That's haute.
> 
> If you make an Amphion Dark Gilt with that case, I'll buy one. 49 friends sold separately.


Seconded

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Sort of. Not exactly.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I'm gonna bang the drum (poke the bear?) again for ceramic inserts. 

Ive read through many doc WOTs on this topic and understand his reasoning and know it will not happen. 

With that said, this is my personal preference as I prefer dressier divers and the gloss from the ceramic gives it a higher quality feeling IMO.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Tossing this out here, WRT Commando bezel insert. Might not be the most fetching to some, but by far, this is one of my most fav watches with this easy mod. If it ever bothered me enough to get more matchy-matchy, I'd paint the red bits of the bezel with black.
> 
> View attachment 15664857
> 
> ...


I love these fitted rubber straps. Here's a pic of a seaforth on fitted rubber. I like that the nth also has a sub case that can fit the plethora of sub straps/bracelets available.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

After a busy holiday season and return to school I come back to the news of a V2 sub and boy howdy am I excited. I love the subtle changes and look forward to seeing what dial and bezel options find their way onto this new crown guard case. I am extremely glad also to see that the same bracelet options will fit this new iteration.

hard to tell from the images provided but Doc is the bezel the same from V1 to V2?


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

ryan850 said:


> I'm gonna bang the drum (poke the bear?) again for ceramic inserts.
> 
> Ive read through many doc WOTs on this topic and understand his reasoning and know it will not happen.
> 
> With that said, this is my personal preference as I prefer dressier divers and the gloss from the ceramic gives it a higher quality feeling IMO.


I second this. I love the look and never hit my watches on anything so zero concern of breaking the insert.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Rhorya said:


>


If "dressy diver" talk promoted that post, then get outta my head!

I count my Skipjack with bracelet swap as one of my dressier divers. Glossy dial. And glossier bezel insert than other subs? Maybe I'm seeing things there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> I'm gonna bang the drum (poke the bear?) again for ceramic inserts...I prefer dressier divers and the gloss from the ceramic gives it a higher quality feeling IMO.


No.

And if I ever did use ceramic for the bezels, I'd do a brushed, not glossy finish anyway.



nonfatproduct said:


> ...hard to tell from the images provided but Doc is the bezel the same from V1 to V2?


Yes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> I second this. I love the look and never hit my watches on anything so zero concern of breaking the insert.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


It may not be your concern, but it is mine, on behalf of all customers.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

3WR said:


> If "dressy diver" talk promoted that post, then get outta my head!
> 
> I count my Skipjack with bracelet swap as one of my dressier divers. Glossy dial. And glossier bezel insert than other subs? Maybe I'm seeing things there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just bad lighting!


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

3WR said:


> If "dressy diver" talk promoted that post, then get outta my head!
> 
> I count my Skipjack with bracelet swap as one of my dressier divers. Glossy dial. And glossier bezel insert than other subs? Maybe I'm seeing things there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great looking watch but I'd say it's still more on the toolish side.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> It may not be your concern, but it is mine, on behalf of all customers.


I understand, from the perspective of the business. A guy can dream though! Would be awesome to have that option. I wonder if a company could custom make one?  Are custom ceramic bezel inserts even a thing? Some searching turned up basically nothing except for inserts fitting watches that are commonly modded.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Industrial Ceramic Products | Mechanical Parts | Latrobe, PA (alumina-ceramic.com)

Custom ceramics.

Also home to tasty green bottled beer.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> No.
> 
> And if I ever did use ceramic for the bezels, I'd do a brushed, not glossy finish anyway.
> 
> Yes.


is this for aesthetic, time, or money reasons, or maybe its for grip? I'm kinda bummed the V2 isn't getting the more profiled bezel shape similar to the swiftsure along with the crown guards.


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## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

3 years on the wrist and counting.

I have banged the insert against wall tiles and there are tons of scratches, since its black and brushed the light reflections do hide it pretty well depending on the angle. Pretty sure I'd have broken the insert when I dropped my watch once if it was ceramic (that time when part of the sapphire crystal fractured) .
I never understood the love for ceramics, imagine the watch decades later with tons of scratches on the case and barely a scratch on the insert. Looking at vintage subs and most divers in general, this is part of the "well worn watch" appeal imo.
I'd understand ceramic inserts on ceramic watches or tungsten carbide watch cases but other than that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> I understand, from the perspective of the business. A guy can dream though! Would be awesome to have that option. I wonder if a company could custom make one?  Are custom ceramic bezel inserts even a thing? Some searching turned up basically nothing except for inserts fitting watches that are commonly modded.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


The inserts from an Seiko SKX031 will fit the Subs, albeit not exactly perfectly, as discovered by "JZ", @jelliottz . Just look for a ceramic insert for the 031.

Just to be clear, that's the 031, not the 013. I get confused myself, and have had to go back and re-check the exchange I had with JZ about it more than once.

The bracelet from the 013 should fit the Subs, but for the bezel insert, it's the 031.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

I'm ok with these inserts









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I have no problem with the NTH steel inserts. None. It's part and parcel with what individuates them from any other microbrand diver out there. The only issue I ever had was availability of aftermarket inserts, and Doc solved that by making all the inserts available.

That said, I'm just not a fan of ceramic bezel inserts. Or sapphire, for that matter. Don't quite get the fascination, other than, I guess, Rolex did it so it must be cool? Much prefer toughness over hardness, and beyond NTH stainless, love Sinn's Tegimented bezels, and Omega's tungsten carbide bezel on the 41mm Constellation.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> is this for aesthetic, time, or money reasons, or maybe its for grip? I'm kinda bummed the V2 isn't getting the more profiled bezel shape similar to the swiftsure along with the crown guards.


We may be misunderstanding each other.

The v.2 40mm Subs' case is going to be a scaled-down version of the 2K1's, to include all the case features - scallopped-tooth bezel, chamfered case sides, tapered crown guards, etc.

It's not quite a 0.9 : 1 scale, though, as we kept the lug length at 48mm (instead of 47mm), kept the thickness at 11.5mm widened the lug tips (compared to the 2K1's), and kept the original v.1 crown (the v.2's was beefier).

The bezel insert dimensions, the insert material, the dial & handset sizes, the crowns, and the bracelets will all carry over from the v.1.

We don't use ceramic inserts because I don't think their higher scratch resistance (compared to the PVD/DLC coated steel inserts we use) is valuable enough as a feature to offset their higher cost and higher risk of being shattered or chipped (both higher compared to the steel we use).

Even if the probability of shattering or chipping a ceramic insert is fairly low, it's still possible to do, which makes the probability much higher than with steel, which might be dented or scratched, but can't be shattered. And logically, anyone is more likely to be able to live with a scratched or dented steel bezel than they would be a chipped or shattered ceramic bezel, which makes replacement more of an imperative with ceramic, if it's been damaged.

Not only is the ceramic part going to be more expensive to replace, it's also going to be harder to replace, if it's been shattered. Whereas a steel insert can be removed as a single piece, leaving only some glue residue behind, the shattered ceramic could require a good bit of scraping to get all the pieces of the broken insert out of the underlying assembly.

God help you if any ceramic pieces got under the underlying ring, into the click mechanism, which is impossible to access without removing the bezel ring, which is almost certainly going to warp it, thereby destroying the case, and thus the watch.

If I were to make the insert ceramic, I wouldn't make it with a glossy finish because I personally don't think glossy finishes belong on tool watches. It's just my opinion, but I think they're too blingtastic. I think the more understated look of a brushed finish looks better, and more in line with the overall aesthetic we're going for with the Subs.

At the end of the day, these are tool watches, inspired by military-issue diving watches. We can brush up against that "dressy diver" line here and there, but that's not really the look we're trying to achieve overall.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

A misunderstanding indeed it was Doc! I am so stoked now. The bezel insert was perfect quality and with so many variations available I couldn’t see a reason to rework it. The bezel itself though, I was hoping to hear exactly what you just said that it was a scaled down 2K1 bezel. Can I just send money now to get to the front of the line?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TL; DR - this is why we don't use ceramic for bezel inserts.

(This doesn't even get into the issues with lume discoloration, whereby the lume begins to prematurely darken, or straight-up disappearance - i.e., the lume falling completely out of the insert - two additional problems I've seen with ceramic inserts.)

Try to find me a pic like this of a steel insert.

I'll wait.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I've scratched every aluminum or titanium bezel I've ever owned. That started a preference for Silver ones, as the scratches didn't show as easily. 

But I've never scratched a steel one. And I've tried...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Waxing philosphic about what watch geeks want, be it ceramic, or sapphire, or Swiss, or anything else...

Every so often, someone in one of the Facebook groups I'm in will ask why more micros don't use 904L stainless steel. The logic seems to be, Rolex uses it, Rolex is bigger / better / smarter, and thus 904L must be superior. Damn the higher cost.

Is it though? That's actually some pretty flawed logic. Big brands often make dubious decisions (odd-number lug widths, proprietary lugs/integrated bracelets, raising prices faster than wage growth - just to name a few).

I'm not a metals expert, but even a layman can do some research and learn a thing or two. When I looked into 904L, for the purpose of comparing it to 316L stainless, here are a few of the takeaways I found...

1. The elements which make up 904L make it shinier / more reflective. Rolex seems to like that quality, given their extensive use of polished finishes. The logic seems to be, people who buy Rolexes want people to notice their watch, so using a more highly reflective metal, and polishing it to a mirror-shine, makes it more likely people will notice it.

2. The higher nickel content of 904L makes it more expensive.

3. The same volume of 904L will weigh more than 316L. So, those of you who like the lightness of a thin steel watch, or ask for titanium, you probably wouldn't prefer the heavier weight of 904L.

4. 904L is softer, and thus easier to dent or scratch than 316L. 904 is usually in the 70-90 Rockwell range (~150 Brinell), whereas 316 is 95 Rockwell, (217 Brinell). Uh-oh...but wait...

5. 904L is more corrosion-resistant than 316L. Hmmm....

Those last two raise an obvious question - does 904L's higher corrosion resistance actually add any practical value, and if so, is it enough to offset the downside of being softer and easier to dent or scratch?

The guys on FB often try to argue that it does and it is, but I vehemently disagree.

My reading on the topic suggests that 904L and 316L would need to be exposed to a _VERY_ highly acidic environment before the difference in corrosion resistance becomes a factor. We're not talking about ocean water, or human sweat.

Just do a Google search for "uses of 904L steel"...

"In comparison to 316L, its molybdenum addition gives it superior resistance to localized attack (pitting and crevice corrosion) by chlorides and greater resistance reducing acids and in particular its copper addition gives it useful corrosion resistance to all concentrations of sulphuric acid....Its low carbon content makes it resistant to sensitization by welding and which prevents intergranular corrosion. It has applications in piping systems, pollution control equipment, heat exchangers, and bleaching systems."

"Alloy 904L (UNS N08904) is a superaustenitic stainless steel designed for corrosion and pitting resistance in a wide range of process environments. It is used extensively in the chemical process industry including the production of phosphate-based fertilizers."​
Human sweat is typically neutral to only mildly acidic - not acidic enough to cause damage to 316L. Ocean water and pool water - the places where your dive watch (and you with it) might find itself are fairly neutral / basic, not acidic environments. 316L is actually _RECOMMENDED_ for marine environments.

In other words, no, 904L's higher corrosion resistance offers no practical / functional advantage over 316L, for use in watches. In fact, it would seem less suited to a tool watch, given that it's softer than 316L, and shinier, unless you like and want your watch to be blingtastic.

Blingtastic may be great for attracting women in a bar, but ain't so great when it comes to attracting sharks in the ocean.

So, is it better? Should I spin my wheels looking into it? Why? I'd have to charge you more, for what would seem to objectively be a worse product.

Seriously? GTFOH.

This is _EXACTLY_ how I feel about ceramic or sapphire bezel inserts, Swiss movements, and all sorts of other bull$hlt complaints I hear and read from guys who never stop to think, much less read beyond what they see being parroted on the innerwebz.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I have never thought about spending Rolex money just to say I have 904l steel but I have looked at a handful of Ball watches and only considered the models offered in 904l. I can’t explain what the appeal is other than the ”idea” that the material is somewhat unique within the watch world. I don’t believe the price increase would make any sense for the market NTH watches are currently offered at. Watch buyers are an interesting bunch and I think Rolex, and Ball to a smaller extent are taking advantage of a luxury market willing to spend money of fluff.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> The inserts from an Seiko SKX031 will fit the Subs, albeit not exactly perfectly, as discovered by "JZ", @jelliottz . Just look for a ceramic insert for the 031.
> 
> Just to be clear, that's the 031, not the 013. I get confused myself, and have had to go back and re-check the exchange I had with JZ about it more than once.
> 
> The bracelet from the 013 should fit the Subs, but for the bezel insert, it's the 031.


7S26-0040

That's the ticket.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Speaking of matte ceramic inserts, and I realize that this is the entirely wrong sub to ask but.. has anyone ever tried blasting a glossy ceramic insert to make it matte? Would that potentially work?


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Waxing philosphic about what watch geeks want, be it ceramic, or sapphire, or Swiss, or anything else...
> 
> Every so often, someone in one of the Facebook groups I'm in will ask why more micros don't use 904L stainless steel. The logic seems to be, Rolex uses it, Rolex is bigger / better / smarter, and thus 904L must be superior. Damn the higher cost.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure comparing rolex using 904 steel to using ceramic inserts is a direct comparison.

Very few brands use that steel where as quite a few use ceramic inserts.

I don't think people are requesting ceramic just because the big brands are using them.

I prefer them to steel but more specifically, I prefer gloss ceramic inserts.

It sounds like it's a style component and aestetich with cost playing a role more than the qualities of the material.

You're going for a tool look and the steel fits in with that. It's also more cost effective. It also doesn't hurt that they tend to be more shatter proof if less scratch resistant.

That, for me, is the area of debate. I prefer a "blingy" look and therefore prefer the gloss ceramic. I don't care that "any of brands use them" or that they aren't shatter proof.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Doc, probably you should do the v2 Sub bezel and inserts in tungsten carbide. And don't forget the tantalum case.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Working from home today and I got distracted admiring my watch. This is probably the only watch in my collection where I wouldn't change a thing about it. The ever elusive "perfect watch."


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Apparently, many folks agreed with my wife that THIS is the perfect watch (Téleios is Greek for "perfect") as both the date and no-date versions have now sold out.









Photo credit: Brad Homes (Instagram @bradwatch)

This Clonetrooper didn't miss out on his - don't be a Stormtrooper and miss out on your Atticus Adventure Series!

-Rusty


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Tell us how you really feel Doc! On that note, a pic of my watch of the day with a not ceramic insert! On this particular model, I don't think a ceramic insert would add anything in terms of aesthetics for me. The steel insert suits it well.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Apparently, many folks agreed with my wife that THIS is the perfect watch (Téleios is Greek for "perfect") as both the date and no-date versions have now sold out.
> 
> View attachment 15671794
> 
> ...


I'm partial to the no-date Meteora if I'm being honest. You have no idea how many times I've been about to add it to my cart on the Atticus site only to back out because my wife would be pissed if I bought another watch. It might still end up happening!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Watch buyers are an interesting bunch and I think Rolex, and Ball to a smaller extent are taking advantage of a luxury market willing to spend money of fluff.


I think there's definitely a tendency for watch enthusiasts to become easily mesmerized by anything "new", without many stopping to wonder why it's "better".

The result of all my research is that very often, the new, wiz-bang stuff people become enamored with is not better.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Speaking of matte ceramic inserts, and I realize that this is the entirely wrong sub to ask but.. has anyone ever tried blasting a glossy ceramic insert to make it matte? Would that potentially work?


I don't know if it's possible.

I honestly don't know how ceramic inserts get their finish, but my thinking is that if they're nigh unscratchable, hitting one with plastic pellets at high speed isn't going to do much.

But I could easily be wrong.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I don't know if it's possible.
> 
> I honestly don't know how ceramic inserts get their finish, but my thinking is that if they're nigh unscratchable, hitting one with plastic pellets at high speed isn't going to do much.
> 
> But I could easily be wrong.


Bead blasted ceramic inserts are starting to appear in the modding world. I'd bet that they would be using an aluminum oxide media, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just use a non-quartz based mineral sand.

I've probably broken 3 or 4 ceramic bezels while modding, and 1 sapphire one(that one hurt a bit). Never shattered an aluminum nor a stainless one...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> I'm not sure comparing rolex using 904 steel to using ceramic inserts is a direct comparison.
> 
> Very few brands use that steel where as quite a few use ceramic inserts.
> 
> ...


I disagree that they're not directly comparable. The number of brands using either is really immaterial / irrelevant to the point (and comparison) I was making. The comparison is about materials choices, and the thinking that goes into them.

Every material choice is just that - a choice. It's very rare that we find one material is clearly superior to another. What we more often find is that changing from one material to another involves trade-offs, in cost, hardness, durability, corrosion resistance, magnetic resistance, etc.

It's not purely an aesthetic choice I'm making. In fact, it's not an aesthetic choice whatsoever, since I can get a ceramic insert with the same brushed finish we use for our steel inserts. If I can achieve the same look with either material, then that's a non-factor in my decision-making process.

It really comes down to a few things: cost differences, not primarily a concern in initial production, but potentially a big concern for customers, when it comes to replacement; the ease of replacemen;, and likelihood a replacement will be "needed" (which will be somewhat subjective, dependent upon how someone feels about damage to their insert, be it ceramic or steel).

The higher cost of a ceramic insert really isn't all that much, in terms of initial production costs. What bothers me more is having to charge more for the replacement parts, which I believe would be needed at a higher rate.

I don't care what other brands do, if other brands are making what I believe are foolish decisions. I'm going to do what I think is best for my business and its customers, long-term. And long-term, I am certain that steel is a better choice.

I mean, if the rest of the case is made of steel, why NOT the bezel insert too? The crystal has to be transparent, but there's no major drawback to using 316L for the case, of which the bezel insert is a part.

Or, to put that another way - if you want a ceramic bezel insert, why not make the whole case out of ceramic? I don't know why anyone would be arguing for a ceramic insert, but not a ceramic case, if ceramic is supposedly a superior choice.

But therein lies the rub...ceramic cases are sort of like 904L cases, in that they seem like a good idea, until you own one, and it gets damaged...
























Say it with me now - "Steel is the deal!"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Bead blasted ceramic inserts are starting to appear in the modding world. I'd bet that they would be using an aluminum oxide media, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just use a non-quartz based mineral sand.


Right, I get that, but, the question was whether or not you could blast a glossy insert, one that had already been finished to a mirror-shine, not whether or not matte ceramic inserts exist.

Ceramic doesn't automatically have that glossy finish. If it did, and it was all but impossible to scratch, then how could we get them with brushed or matte finishes? Since we can readily get those other, non-glossy finishes, my thinking is their finishes are done prior to the component being completed, not applied to a completed ceramic component with a glossy finish.

The original Zelos Hammerhead had a matte ceramic insert. Its surface looked similar to a chalkboard. I saw Elshan wearing the prototype at the HK show, back in September of 2016, so they're not really "new".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> Tell us how you really feel Doc!


I feel like I want more credit for putting actual work into researching components and materials, so I can make better choices, and look out for the best interests of my customers, long-term, instead of doing whatever people ask me to do, willy-nilly, without giving a crap about the outcomes everyone would need to live with.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Right, I get that, but, the question was whether or not you could blast a glossy insert, one that had already been finished to a mirror-shine, not whether or not matte ceramic inserts exist.
> 
> Ceramic doesn't automatically have that glossy finish. If it did, and it was all but impossible to scratch, then how could we get them with brushed or matte finishes? Since we can readily get those other, non-glossy finishes, my thinking is their finishes are done prior to the component being completed, not applied to a completed ceramic component with a glossy finish.
> 
> The original Zelos Hammerhead had a matte ceramic insert. Its surface looked similar to a chalkboard. I saw Elshan wearing the prototype at the HK show, back in September of 2016, so they're not really "new".


Good point. I've not handled a bead blasted insert, but I've handled matte finish inserts, so I wonder what the difference in surface would be... if any... Might be worth investigating, but then I'd need to buy enough parts to build another whole watch...

It does seem idiotic to bead blast a polished insert, it (I can only guess) would seem to be much more work to polish an insert relative to a matte/brushed insert.

Shattering an insert is far less annoying on a common SKX sized bezel, as there are dozens of replacements available. Shattering one on a far less common sized bezel, that would be awful.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> I disagree that they're not directly comparable. The number of brands using either is really immaterial / irrelevant to the point (and comparison) I was making. The comparison is about materials choices, and the thinking that goes into them.
> 
> Every material choice is just that - a choice. It's very rare that we find one material is clearly superior to another. What we more often find is that changing from one material to another involves trade-offs, in cost, hardness, durability, corrosion resistance, magnetic resistance, etc.
> 
> ...


I think we are actually agreeing on the points that using certain components based on what competitors do is foolish.

You should def do what is best for your business, what nets you the highest profit, and gives the best value to cost ratio.

I think what it really comes down to is I prefer a glossy ceramic bezel for the look. I hold that with higher value than the added cost of replacement.

With that said, I def see a place for steel (or aluminum) bezels as I also have an oris 65 and omega 2254.

It's not a black and white. For certain sub models, the steel works better. For others, I think a ceramic bezel would enhance it.

I think your choice of steel works great for the brand and watch your trying to create.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Good point. I've not handled a bead blasted insert, but I've handled matte finish inserts, so I wonder what the difference in surface would be... if any... Might be worth investigating, but then I'd need to buy enough parts to build another whole watch...
> 
> It does seem idiotic to bead blast a polished insert, it (I can only guess) would seem to be much more work to polish an insert relative to a matte/brushed insert.
> 
> ...


I think the matte finish may be bead-blasted, so if so, they'd be one and the same.

Like I said, I don't know how the finishes are achieved, as I do with steel. I just know that the 3 finishes I can get - blasted (matte), brushed, and polished (glossy) are available with either steel or ceramic.

Since I don't know how the finishes are achieved with ceramic, I don't know if it's possible to bead-blast an insert that's already polished. For all I know, those finishes are done prior to some later process which "bakes" the finish in, thereby making it "permanent". It's just something that would seem likely, logically, since ceramic is supposedly un-scratchable.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> I think we are actually agreeing on the points that using certain components based on what competitors do is foolish.
> 
> You should def do what is best for your business, what nets you the highest profit, and gives the best value to cost ratio.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your willingness to see it from my perspective, as the guy who must support the customers' needs long-term.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I think the matte finish may be bead-blasted, so if so, they'd be one and the same.
> 
> Like I said, I don't know how the finishes are achieved, as I do with steel. I just know that the 3 finishes I can get - blasted (matte), brushed, and polished (glossy) are available with either steel or ceramic.
> 
> Since I don't know how the finishes are achieved with ceramic, I don't know if it's possible to bead-blast an insert that's already polished. For all I know, those finishes are done prior to some later process which "bakes" the finish in, thereby making it "permanent". It's just something that would seem likely, logically, since ceramic is supposedly un-scratchable.


Dammit, now I have to buy one of the one's that actually states "bead blasted"... I'm betting you're right, matte finish = bead blasted.. whether it was polished and THEN bead blasted, I have my doubts..

I'll report back once I've accrued a build budget..

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Double post.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> I feel like I want more credit for putting actual work into researching components and materials, so I can make better choices, and look out for the best interests of my customers, long-term, instead of doing whatever people ask me to do, willy-nilly, without giving a crap about the outcomes everyone would need to live with.


Believe me, I respect that you're doing what you see as what's best for your business, as well you should. As I'd mentioned, I just dig the look of the polished ceramic, it definitely gives a certain 'jewelry' look to a watch. That doesn't mean it should be what it is, on account of a few guys who like it. The lack of ceramic definitely won't stop me from owning your products. As I mentioned earlier, I think my Dolphin looks right with the steel. My Scorpene though, if I could get it with a polished blue ceramic insert the same color as the dial, that would be a killer look, to me. I definitely don't think you should alter your business model on account of me however.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

nonfatproduct said:


> Watch buyers are an interesting bunch and I think Rolex, and Ball to a smaller extent are taking advantage of a luxury market willing to spend money of fluff.


Wait a minute, you're putting Rolex and BALL in the same bucket? I just bought a Ball Engineer M Marvelight. 40mm, COSC certified, it's first in house movement and I got it for less than $1900. I could buy three of those for the cheapest new Rolex (assuming you can get one)


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

JLittle said:


> Wait a minute, you're putting Rolex and BALL in the same bucket? I just bought a Ball Engineer M Marvelight. 40mm, COSC certified, it's first in house movement and I got it for less than $1900. I could buy three of those for the cheapest new Rolex (assuming you can get one)


Given the discussion a few pages back, my guess is the bucket in question is "brands which use 904L steel."


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLittle said:


> Wait a minute, you're putting Rolex and BALL in the same bucket? I just bought a Ball Engineer M Marvelight. 40mm, COSC certified, it's first in house movement and I got it for less than $1900. I could buy three of those for the cheapest new Rolex (assuming you can get one)


I don't think he was going _that_ far... Merely stating that Ball also uses 904L.


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Speaking of matte ceramic inserts, and I realize that this is the entirely wrong sub to ask but.. has anyone ever tried blasting a glossy ceramic insert to make it matte? Would that potentially work?


That sounds like a great way to introduce defects in the surface that would allow for crack propagation and ceramic failure.

I'm guessing you'd probably want to fire it again in a furnace afterwards to help mitigate against that...


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> I don't think he was going _that_ far... Merely stating that Ball also uses 904L.


I guess I focused on the taking advantage of buyers with fluff. But fair enough.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

watchcrank_tx said:


> Given the discussion a few pages back, my guess is the bucket is question is "brands which use 904L steel."


I guess I focused on the last part about taking advantage of buyers with fluff. But fair enough.


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

JLittle said:


> I guess I focused on the last part about taking advantage of buyers with fluff. But fair enough.


I'm just upset you quoted me before I could correct my typo. Rats, beaten again! 🤣

Marvelight is a great watch. Congrats!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

watchcrank_tx said:


> I'm just upset you quoted me before I could correct my typo. Rats, beaten again! 🤣
> 
> Marvelight is a great watch. Congrats!


Agreed. The Marvelight is a looker. Almost scooped one up myself... but I went older and prettier. Sorry @JLittle !!


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Agreed. The Marvelight is a looker. Almost scooped one up myself... but I went older and prettier. Sorry @JLittle !!
> View attachment 15672323


Ball makes a lot of good looking watches, and it's my biggest surprise. I knew I'd really like it, but the way it sits on my wrist like it was made for my wrist, I just love it. Yours is impressive looking!


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Agreed. The Marvelight is a looker. Almost scooped one up myself... but I went older and prettier. Sorry @JLittle !!
> View attachment 15672323











A little off topic. Have y'all seen this? Ball is marketing this as the World's first day-date GMT timepiece.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLittle said:


> View attachment 15672329
> 
> A little off topic. Have y'all seen this? Ball is marketing this as the World's first day-date GMT timepiece.


I have. And I like it. But not enough to plunk down the $$$.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Who knew? I've had this NTH ceramic bezel since before I'd even heard of NTH.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> I have. And I like it. But not enough to plunk down the $$$.


$2649 on pre-order for the blue ceramic bezel. And all that tucked into a 40mm.

Anyway, I'm a fan of Ball watches. Get a LOT for the money and a lot more goodness from them is coming.

Sorry for hijacking the NTH thread, Doc. I have no doubt before I'm done collecting I'll have at least a couple NTH. Talk about a lot of watch for the money.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Who knew? I've had this NTH ceramic bezel since before I'd even heard of NTH.
> 
> View attachment 15672339


Do you remember where you got it? How much was it? Got a link for the peeps who want a ceramic insert for their NTH?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLittle said:


> $2649 on pre-order for the blue ceramic bezel. And all that tucked into a 40mm.
> 
> Anyway, I'm a fan of Ball watches. Get a LOT for the money and a lot more goodness from them is coming.
> 
> Sorry for hijacking the NTH thread, Doc. I have no doubt before I'm done collecting I'll have at least a couple NTH. Talk about a lot of watch for the money.


No apologies needed. I'm good with it. It wouldn't be an NTH thread without the semi-daily completely off-topic diversion.

Enjoy your Balls.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Do you remember where you got it? How much was it? Got a link for the peeps who want a ceramic insert for their NTH?


DLW. 
$38. 








BEZEL INSERTS - SKX031







www.dlwwatches.com


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

3WR said:


> DLW.
> $38.
> 
> 
> ...


So any SKX013 bezel insert should fit the NTH 40mm subs? If so, that opens up a whole world of options for people who want something unique.

a quick google search tells me these won't work. What am I missing here?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

nonfatproduct said:


> So any SKX013 bezel insert should fit the NTH 40mm subs? If so, that opens up a whole world of options for people who want something unique.
> 
> a quick google search tells me these won't work. What am I missing here?


IIRC, the OD is correct. Its the ID that's not. If you look at the photo above, you can see a slightly larger than normal gap between the crystal and the insert.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> IIRC, the OD is correct. Its the ID that's not. If you look at the photo above, you can see a slightly larger than normal gap between the crystal and the insert.


I see the gap now. Once I see it I'm not sure it would ever look right. The dimensions I was looking at were the SKX013 where the SKX 031 does have dimensions that look like the bezel pictured above.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

You need an skx031 not skx013


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lumes









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

If you buy one of Doc's NTHs, you need to have Balls. There. I said it.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

In the FWIW category: I like Doc's watches specifically for "what they are."  I think if they changed dramatically, they'd be less appealing to me. Sort of like asking an SUV company to start making limousines. If I decide I want a limo, I'll go to a limo manufacturer. Lamborghinis and Land Rovers...

Having said that, different versions are awesome.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> IIRC, the OD is correct. Its the ID that's not. If you look at the photo above, you can see a slightly larger than normal gap between the crystal and the insert.


In case it isn't obvious, the photo I think you're referring to is not an NTH.

Which makes this moot, I suppose. But it also has an aftermarket crystal with beveled edge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RE - the 031 inserts, see this - NTH Barracuda - Modified like Calypsomatic

That's the Barracuda Jelliottz modified with an SKX031 insert.

The inner diameter of the 031 is very slightly larger than the stock Subs insert, so there will be a very small gap around the crystal. It would appear that there'd be just a 0.1mm gap around the outer diameter (a small enough increment to be considered negligible), and a 0.25mm gap around the inner.

The gap is small, in my opinion all but unnoticeable.

The Subs' insert dimensions are 30mm inner diameter, 38mm outer diameter, for whatever it's worth. I'm not 100% sure about their thickness, or inner / outer slope.

I found this thread useful enough to bookmark - Bezel insert sizes - a reference tool

There are a handful of other inserts which aren't a perfect match, but may fit within that space. The Rolex GMT (old - see reference numbers) and Invicta 2844 seem reasonably close. Neither looks like it would be quite as good a fit as the Seiko insert, but there may be more aftermarket options available for those models.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> So any SKX013 bezel insert should fit the NTH 40mm subs? If so, that opens up a whole world of options for people who want something unique.
> 
> a quick google search tells me these won't work. What am I missing here?


You want the 031, not the 013.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> In case it isn't obvious, the photo I think you're referring to is not an NTH.
> 
> Which makes this moot, I suppose. But it also has an aftermarket crystal with beveled edge.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I actually looked at that after the fact. I did indeed notice it is not an NTH, but a Seiko. Whoops.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> You want the 031, not the 013.


I realized that shortly after posting hahaha.

maybe I missed it but do you know yet, when, and what models, the new V2 cases will be assembled as?


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> I don't know if it's possible.
> 
> I honestly don't know how ceramic inserts get their finish, but my thinking is that if they're nigh unscratchable, hitting one with plastic pellets at high speed isn't going to do much.
> 
> But I could easily be wrong.





captainmorbid said:


> Good point. I've not handled a bead blasted insert, but I've handled matte finish inserts, so I wonder what the difference in surface would be... if any... Might be worth investigating, but then I'd need to buy enough parts to build another whole watch...
> 
> It does seem idiotic to bead blast a polished insert, it (I can only guess) would seem to be much more work to polish an insert relative to a matte/brushed insert.
> 
> ...


I wish it was just idiocy that made me consider this. I have a cheap diver that I got as base for a mod, that I bought jut off renders, release day, before any real life pics were available. It's got mustard lume, matte dial with printed markers, 38mm and a glossy ceramic insert that just clashes so hard with the rest of the watch I cannot get over it. The renders made it look matte but it is just blingy AF.. I got it as base for a modding project but nothing will fit. NH35 movement, but the dial is 1mm larger than standard, with fixed rehaute glued directly to the dial. No bezel insert anywhere available fits. So I have two options - either sell it off for less than half what I paid for it a few months ago, or think outside the box, modding wise. I could print my own dial for it, relume some hands to go with it. I'll probably be shabby, but still might be a fun project. But nothing will fix that glossy ceramic insert. That'll just always look off to me. I realize that ceramic is 'almost' scratch resistant, but seeing that there are people from all sorts of backgrounds, doing all sort of crazy things to their watches here, I figured I'd ask.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Iandk said:


> That sounds like a great way to introduce defects in the surface that would allow for crack propagation and ceramic failure.
> 
> I'm guessing you'd probably want to fire it again in a furnace afterwards to help mitigate against that...


I have blasting equipment available, but no furnace, so that's out of the question :/


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I wish it was just idiocy that made me consider this. I have a cheap diver that I got as base for a mod, that I bought jut off renders, release day, before any real life pics were available. It's got mustard lume, matte dial with printed markers, 38mm and a glossy ceramic insert that just clashes so hard with the rest of the watch I cannot get over it. The renders made it look matte but it is just blingy AF.. I got it as base for a modding project but nothing will fit. NH35 movement, but the dial is 1mm larger than standard, with fixed rehaute glued directly to the dial. No ceramic insert anywhere available fits. So I have two options - either sell it off for less than half what I paid for it a few months ago, or think outside the box, modding wise. I could print my own dial for it. I'll probably be shabby, but still might be a fun project. But nothing will fix that glossy ceramic insert. That'll just always look off to me. I realize that ceramic is 'almost' scratch resistant, but seeing that there are people from all sorts of backgrounds here, I figured I'd ask.


SM Retro sub I presume?


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> SM Retro sub I presume?


the very same. won't post a pic because it's kinda similar to a Sub that I don't want to invite false comparisons. The S M just doesn't stack up. I was reasonably impressed with it when I first got it, finishing is not nearly as crisp and some bonkers decisions with the bracelet, but then it started to squeak when I move my hand It's like I have to lubricate the end links or something... it's the weirdest thing ?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I wish it was just idiocy that made me consider this. I have a cheap diver that I got as base for a mod, that I bought jut off renders, release day, before any real life pics were available. It's got mustard lume, matte dial with printed markers, 38mm and a glossy ceramic insert that just clashes so hard with the rest of the watch I cannot get over it. The renders made it look matte but it is just blingy AF.. I got it as base for a modding project but nothing will fit. NH35 movement, but the dial is 1mm larger than standard, with fixed rehaute glued directly to the dial. No bezel insert anywhere available fits. So I have two options - either sell it off for less than half what I paid for it a few months ago, or think outside the box, modding wise. I could print my own dial for it, relume some hands to go with it. I'll probably be shabby, but still might be a fun project. But nothing will fix that glossy ceramic insert. That'll just always look off to me. I realize that ceramic is 'almost' scratch resistant, but seeing that there are people from all sorts of backgrounds, doing all sort of crazy things to their watches here, I figured I'd ask.


Giver! My point wasn't aimed at modders, but manufacturers. I feel your pain, I've actually wrecked a few cases and bezels on watches attempting to mod them, the pain of an unmoddable watch that was bought for modding, is real, and you aren't alone.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

Hey gang-

Getting ready to mod my Kiger Red Ronin. Nothing fancy, just switch out the bezel insert with an Amphion one I have. Should get me by till Doc makes another, amazing, brand new Amphion model for me and "the 49". Right, Chris? ;-)

Any tips on switching the bezel myself vs just having a professional do it? I'm a bit paranoid about using my heat gun. I've had success in the past with heating and then twisting and working the insert till it comes off. I generally avoid prying the insert, as I've left unwanted markings on the bezel before.

Appreciate any insights and tips you guys wanna dish out!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Hey gang-
> 
> Getting ready to mod my Kiger Red Ronin. Nothing fancy, just switch out the bezel insert with an Amphion one I have. Should get me by till Doc makes another, amazing, brand new Amphion model for me and "the 49". Right, Chris? ;-)
> 
> ...


Follow the instructions on the website. Go slow. Take your time.

Use implements that aren't likely to scratch metal, perhaps made out wood or plastic.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Still waxing philosophic...

Rusty launched Atticus last week. So far, it seems to be going well. 

The week before, I indulged someone intent on blaming another startup's failure to launch on yet another business, one with which I happen to have had some dealings, all of them stellar. 

I just got through scanning some discussion about it, in which there were a few recognizable themes....

1. Company A reputedly got screwed over by Company B (no proof provided, just the word of Company A's founder), so let's all hate on Company B, rather than question the dubious decisions made by Company A's founder, or asking which was the bigger factor in Company A's failure.

2. Company A's founder is a good dude who was just chasing his dreams. He's had unforeseeable setbacks - health problems, family matters, whatever. Anyone who questions his decisions, or motivations, or integrity, or intelligence, or preparedness, or fitness for the role, or in any way suggests any of his actions may have been ill-advised, is out of line, total scum, and worthy of censure.

3. Kickstarter and Pre-orders are a gamble. Everyone who backed Company A's project knew the risks, and shouldn't be complaining about not receiving what they paid for and expected, or their money back. See above - Company A's founder is a good dude, not to be held responsible for his failure to deliver.

On any given day, or at the very least, in any given week, I'll find myself lurking in some thread here, or on Facebook, reading the comments of people debating the potential fortunes of some new start-up, or debating what went wrong with one that crashed and burned. They've all gotten very homogeneous for me.

Very often, I can't help feeling like I see exactly what went wrong (or will go wrong), where, when, and why. Some folks just aren't cut out to be business owners, unfortunately, but not all of them realize it.

What's captured my attention and focus at this moment is how often these people seem to be accompanied by vocal cheerleaders and defenders.

Seeing Rusty's modest success this far, followed so closely by reading the rantings about someone else's predictable (and quite spectacular) failure, got me thinking about the role those cheerleaders play.

What's their responsibility, for encouraging undue risk-taking by someone else, who is using other people's money, putting other people's money at risk? What about the way they play the role of carnival barker? How many people owe their losses to these unofficial spokespeople and behind-the-scenes influence mongers?

(I've been deliberately staying out of the Atticus discussions, while remaining available to Rusty as an advisor, so I don't put myself in that category.)

It reminds me of a local small-business panel discussion I was asked to join (as a last-minute substitute for someone who fell ill - no one in their right mind would have me at the top of their panel speakers list), back in 2019, or early 2020. One of the other panelists was a woman who is apparently very involved in business networking for women, women helping other women in business, etc. She related this story, which I found fascinating...

It seems that she'd become increasingly frustrated with a tendency among the women in her network, whereby, if one woman goes looking for opinions about raising the price of her product or service, she'll get unanimous encouragement, even if the reality is that she's about to price herself right out of the market. The prevailing sentiment is, "You go, girl! Girl power!" (I'm quoting her directly there.)

In her view, this was strictly a women's issue, as if only women encourage bad decision-making among their peers, all apparently resulting from the perception they're morally bound to balance the universal scales, after decades of income inequality.

I sat there dumbfounded. It never occurred to her that men have been encouraging other men to do stupid Shlt for eons. My internal processor started to whine and smoke, running through the records of all the failed watch brand startups, along with their unapologetic shills.

Anyhoo...the questions posed above are rhetorical. I know what I think the answers are - carnival barkers and behind-the-scenes influence mongers ought to be chastised as readily as we chastise the guys who take people's money but don't deliver on their commitments. Surely they deserve their own corner of Hell...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I have found myself wondering about those "carnival barkers" in the past. In real life, they may be called an entourage, and more importantly (at least in most cases) they were KNOWN. 

In the modern, social media era, many are unknown voices of encouragement. The naive side of me wants to label them "serial encouragers" with nothing but positive intent, supporting the dreams of others

The paranoid side of me wants to label them all "intentional enablers waiting to feast on the ultimate failure", as if they were all conniving 

Realistically, there are both, but I do find many seeking that positive feedback online from a multitude they do not know. While the hoard has some fault in the matter, wantrepreneurs who have failed to realize this new, risky environment are ultimately at fault IMO, because true successful entrepreneurs depend on more than just feelings, hopes, and dreams. 

Sorry, I know you were not seeking a response, just my less than $.02


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I have found myself wondering about those "carnival barkers" in the past. In real life, they may be called an entourage, and more importantly (at least in most cases) they were KNOWN.
> 
> In the modern, social media era, many are unknown voices of encouragement. The naive side of me wants to label them "serial encouragers" with nothing but positive intent, supporting the dreams of others
> 
> ...


Hah! I don't think I didn't want any response. Only that I wasn't necessarily looking for agreement, and was hoping to avoid acrimonious debate.

I think incompetence attracts more of the same. If someone who isn't all that capable is determined to prove it, there'll be some other nitwit there to help with motivation. Pretty soon, an enthusiastic crowd will gather.

It's the drunken frat party stunt form factor applied to startups.

"Here's a [stupid] idea."

"Let's do it!"

"Chug! Chug! Chug! Chug!..." (feel free to substitute "Toga! Toga! Toga!", or "Jump! Jump! Jump!")

[Later on, in the hospital, back of a cop car, or in the dean's office...] "It seemed like a good idea at the time..."

I can't remember for sure if I actually did this, or if I've just convinced myself I did, and now I remember it this way, but I think I told her that it wasn't a women's issue, because I see it all the time in the microbrand space, which is almost exclusively men. I think I wanted to make her feel better, or show empathy.

There have been times when I tried to inject a bit of reason into the discussions. I always came to regret it. When the prevailing sentiment is to encourage the dreamer, you look like an ogre if you suggest pumping the brakes before driving over the cliff. Everyone sees you as a bully.

Especially if it's me. I have that way about me, it seems.

THEM: "He's pursuing his dreams! How dare you piss on them?"

ME: "His dreams will soon be a raging dumpster fire. I'm just ahead of the curve."

I don't bother any more. At least not publicly. For the most part, I've even stopped giving other brand owners advice privately, because to date, very few appear to have accepted it. I now prefer to distance myself from future disasters in the making.

Rusty and Atticus have been the refreshing exception. He's pulled off a difficult trick - making Atticus his own by sticking to his vision and his guns, but also accepting good counsel when it would be of benefit.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

"I'm just ahead of the curve..." actually achieved a verbal chuckle out of me. I do understand, albeit from a background in a space that is not watch related

Turning a hobby into a career has always been risky, the internet and "gig economy" mindset just supercharged it

But on topic....fingers crossed for Rusty and Atticus, off to a great start from what little I know. Accepting quality counsel (and having it available) is invaluable


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Being an old L&H fan and customer (Cerb, Acionna, Orthos, Phantom) I have been debating an NTH for awhile. Found an Oberon II that was still speaking to me after sleeping on it. Inbound now, so that is exciting


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> "I'm just ahead of the curve..." actually achieved a verbal chuckle out of me. I do understand, albeit from a background in a space that is not watch related
> 
> Turning a hobby into a career has always been risky, the internet and "gig economy" mindset just supercharged it
> 
> But on topic....fingers crossed for Rusty and Atticus, off to a great start from what little I know. Accepting quality counsel (and having it available) is invaluable


Indeed. The cock-eyed optimist / enthusiast, seeking to turn his passion into a viable business, is as old a story as microrbrands themselves.

Michael E. Gerber's "The E-Myth" dates back to 1986. I'm sure history is littered with the corpses of failed businesses, started by people who didn't lack "passion", only skill and / or will.

Sometimes I struggle not to feel some degree of anger, watching someone fail, after they clearly approached the endeavor much too cavalierly. It's like, "duh. Did you really think it would be that easy? Just 1-2-3-Kickstarter, and away you go?"

It's worse when it's someone I went out of my way to advise. That's part of why I stopped. I had a hard time maintaining a sense of detachment.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Being an old L&H fan and customer (Cerb, Acionna, Orthos, Phantom) I have been debating an NTH for awhile. Found an Oberon II that was still speaking to me after sleeping on it. Inbound now, so that is exciting


Welcome back to the fold.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For the benefit of anyone reading what I posted on the previous page, and convinced you know who and which brand I'm talking about, trust me, you may not.

Like I said, the stories have all become the same...

Johnny Micro decides to start a brand. Bobby Barker thinks it's a great idea, and jumps on board to help spread the word. A crowd gathers, money in hand, ready to hand it over to Johnny. 

A few months later, Johnny's gone silent. Everything is going through Bobby now. Bobby is talking to Johnny, and telling us what Johnny says, so Johnny won't be bothered, and can keep working.

People want to know where their watch is. Bobby says it's coming, but Johnny's been dealing with some personal matters, there are delays, quality concerns, the factory is playing games, someone tricked Johnny, or lied to him, it's not his fault, but he'll make good, rest assured.

More time passes. Johnny reappears, sad story to tell, but earnest (sounding) in his commitment to still make good, if everyone will just remain patient and understanding. He's doing all he can to sort everyone out. 

Bobby's right there, saying I told you all - Johnny's a stand-up guy.

More time passes, less communication, but with more excuses. Gradually, there's less Johnny, and less Bobby. 

And no watches.

Cue the wailing and gnashing of teeth. A pox on both their houses.

Sound familiar? It should. It ought to be a pattern everyone recognizes by now.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

For no real reason having to do with actual facts or knowledge, my conjecture is that finish on ceramic either mirrors something built into a mold, or may be a function of some kind of finishing glaze. It would not at all surprise me to hear that neither of these guesses is correct...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Everyone wants to be part of something big. Even if they have no other skin in the game than being a customer or even just an interested party. If you are first on a bandwagon, right next to the driver, man, you are important! At the forefront of The Next Big Thing. And once youve hitched your horse to that wagon, basically invested your credibility, it is hard to admit you were wrong.

PS. Not just businesses...

I think one of the best fictional portrayals of this is Wormtongue in LotR.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Mediocre said:


> While the hoard has some fault in the matter


The underlined word, while spelled correctly, is the wrong word. What you meant to say is 'horde.' This is one of my pet peeves, using a homonym for the intended word. A hoard is what Scrooge McDuck accumulated. I'll shut up now, at least until the next time.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

MikeyT said:


> The underlined word, while spelled correctly, is the wrong word. What you meant to say is 'horde.' This is one of my pet peeves, using a homonym for the intended word. A hoard is what Scrooge McDuck accumulated. I'll shut up now, at least until the next time.


I have to complement you on catching that. Their using the wrong words, thanks for putting it write. I could hardly bare it.

Sorry, I'm toeing the line here. I guess I'm just board. Hopefully I maid you laugh. Ok, I'll take a brake...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I love this thread.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

RotorRonin said:


> I have to complement you on catching that. Their using the wrong words, thanks for putting it write. I could hardly bare it.
> 
> Sorry, I'm toeing the line here. I guess I'm just board. Hopefully I maid you laugh. Ok, I'll take a brake...


You just had to ring it all out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I have to complement you on catching that. Their using the wrong words, thanks for putting it write. I could hardly bare it.
> 
> Sorry, I'm toeing the line here. I guess I'm just board. Hopefully I maid you laugh. Ok, I'll take a brake...


You inadvertently used the correct "toe" in "toeing the line".


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

MikeyT said:


> The underlined word, while spelled correctly, is the wrong word. What you meant to say is 'horde.' This is one of my pet peeves, using a homonym for the intended word. A hoard is what Scrooge McDuck accumulated. I'll shut up now, at least until the next time.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I have to complement you on catching that. Their using the wrong words, thanks for putting it write. I could hardly bare it.
> 
> Sorry, I'm toeing the line here. I guess I'm just board. Hopefully I maid you laugh. Ok, I'll take a brake...


I'm is better spelt as Im. And I'll, well it looks better as Ill.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Sound familiar? It should. It ought to be a pattern everyone recognizes by now.


Does this really happen all that often in the microbrand watch world? I've been a daily reader of f71 for a decade, and I can only think of one case where a lot of people definitely lost money, and a couple of others where some people may have lost some money.

Projects that didn't ever get off the ground, sure, lots of those.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Does this really happen all that often in the microbrand watch world? I've been a daily reader of f71 for a decade, and I can only think of one case where a lot of people definitely lost money, and a couple of others where some people may have lost some money.
> 
> Projects that didn't ever get off the ground, sure, lots of those.


If we include projects where nothing was delivered, at all, and projects where the product that was delivered fell far short of expectations, and projects where the product may have been delivered, but the delays were seemingly unending, as were the founder's excuses, yes, it happens very often.

Please understand why I don't want to create a long list of examples, starting with Olivier. I don't mind mentioning Olivier, because the business appears defunct, and by all accounts, the owner didn't seem very remorseful about taking a lot of people's money, but not delivering a watch to barely any of them.

But many of the other examples I could give are brands which are still around, or their failures are still recent. Their backers are still smarting from the loss. I know some of the owners personally, and don't really see the point in calling them out by name. That would only create, if not add to the perception some have of me, that I'm willing to trash-talk my competitors, when the opposite is true.

To be clear, I'm not talking about those projects on Kickstarter (or in some cases, pre-orders), wherein the goal wasn't reached, and backers / customers received refunds. I view those as benign - no harm, no foul.

I'm strictly referring to the countless projects wherein money changed hands, permanently, but backers either received nothing, or were bitterly disappointed with what they did receive, or the process was a complete disaster from hitting the goal to eventually, after many delays, making delivery.

With most, if not all those projects, the patterns are typically the same as I described.

That doesn't even get into the many brands which manage to stumble their way through a "successful" launch, but just barely, before limping along a few more years, and eventually fading away, leaving behind customers who can no longer expect any further support.

Yes, there are many who fit those descriptions.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

MikeyT said:


> The underlined word, while spelled correctly, is the wrong word. What you meant to say is 'horde.' This is one of my pet peeves, using a homonym for the intended word. A hoard is what Scrooge McDuck accumulated. I'll shut up now, at least until the next time.


Thank you, good catch. I normally put intentional effort into avoiding such mistakes, but I missed it completely. I should post less at late hours and just go to bed.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I like watches. I like microbrands. I have experience sourcing manufacturing in China.*

Would I start a microbrand from scratch, on my own?

Oh, hell no!

More power to them what do so we get cool watches of decent quality at reasonable prices.

But no. Nope. No way. Not me.

*Also Mexico, Canada, Malaysia, South Korea, India and even Estonia. But primarily domestic, USA.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> You inadvertently used the correct "toe" in "toeing the line".


The ONE TIME autocorrect does it's job!



MikeyT said:


> You just had to ring it all out.


I could of corrected it, but mine as well embrace it!


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Odin today. Was planning on moving on from this one because I picked up an omega 2254.

However, I've been getting my dad into watches (ie wearing a watch everyday vs no watch) by getting him a hamilton kahki king in champagne dial. He likes loose fitting straps so I put it on a erika strap in sand and be loves it.

Internet photo for reference (couldn't find a pic on my phone)









Coming back around to the odin, as I was thinking about moving it on, I had a thought that I should give it to my dad instead. It would go great as a two watch combo with the Hamilton and I also happen to have an erika strap in black that I can put it on.

So that's the plan, give it to dad at some point. Maybe for his birthday which is coming up in February.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting case mod of a Sub.

Not only bead-blasted, but he rounded the lugs, to, as he calls it, "de-fang" the case.









SOLD!!!Nth Scorpene with Lightly Modded Case, Full Kit...


SOLD!!! I have really loved this watch, and wore it in a large rotation, about once a month, so it has minimal wear. After i had it for a while, i bought a used Sinn 657, and here's the truth: i liked this Scorpene better, so i re-sold the Sinn. That's how high the quality is, and it keeps...




www.watchuseek.com


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Y'all'dvr


docvail said:


> Interesting case mod of a Sub.
> 
> Not only bead-blasted, but he rounded the lugs, to, as he calls it, "de-fang" the case.
> 
> ...


I do like the bead blast.... But I hate what he did to the lugs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Where my "make more Amphion" guys at? @Avo ? @tregan13 ?

So...we conducted the spare parts inventory. It appears we have the parts available for Dan to assemble:

1 Santa Fe (no date only)
2 Amphion Dark Gilt (gold-gilt markers and hands, but applied markers, not a gilt-relief dial) - 1 no date / 1 with-date, but it's at ~4:30 - see review and pics here - Nth Amphion Dark Gilt Watch Review - Watch It All About

EDIT / PS - I should have mentioned, we're missing the hour hands for the Amphions. I just asked my vendor for them today. We can't assemble those until we get the hands.

EDIT 2 / PPS - one of the Amphion Dark GIlt WITH date and the DLC case are now gone. Just one Amphion no date and the Santa Fe left.

If anyone wants, I think we can make ONE of those watches with a DLC case and bracelet.

Instead of me guessing who might want a DLC Santa Fe or Amphion Dark Gilt, how about this...you guys shoot an email to [email protected], with your preference for which of these models you want, and the options. Include in your message:

+What country you're in, for shipping purposes.​+Model - Santa Fe or Amphion Dark Gilt​+Case/bracelet - Stainless or DLC​+(For Amphion only) - date or no-date​+Bezel insert - yes, we'll put any insert you want on it, but no, we can't show you an image of what it'll look like before you decide. All the insert images are on the website. Use your imagination - Replacement Bezel Insert for NTH Subs.​
Since these will be made-to-order, we'll be collecting payments in full, and in advance, and they'll be $50 more than normal ($750 stainless, $800 DLC), to cover the added costs of Dan's time doing assembly and my time figuring all this stuff out.

Shipping will be via USPS flat rate - $20 anywhere in the USA, $40 to Canada, $50 to all other countries.

First to email us, and pay for their order, will have first dibs on these.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Y'all'dvr
> 
> I do like the bead blast.... But I hate what he did to the lugs.


I like it better than the guy who ground a flat spot into his crown, so it wouldn't dig into his wrist.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> The underlined word, while spelled correctly, is the wrong word. What you meant to say is 'horde.' This is one of my pet peeves, using a homonym for the intended word. A hoard is what Scrooge McDuck accumulated. I'll shut up now, at least until the next time.


If malaprops hit you in a similar way, do NOT watch Trailer Park Boys. Ricky will give you a nervous breakdown.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> If malaprops hit you in a similar way, do NOT watch Trailer Park Boys. Ricky will give you a nervous breakdown.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

I bought a blue DevilRay early last year and sold it a few months back. But every day since I have had to look at this Crest bottle every morning... found a used one on ebay that arrived today!









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...about those Amphions and that Santa Fe...

The DLC case/bracelet has been claimed, along with the Amphion Dark Gilt w/date dial.

I also received an email about the no-date Amphion.

The Santa Fe is still available. We can assemble that one right away, for whoever wants it.

I don't want to take anyone's money until I'm sure we can get the hands we need for the Amphions, and I know when. Our vendors are about to shut down ops for the Lunar New Year, and won't be back up and running for 3-4 weeks.

Until then, I'll continue to keep the emails anyone sends me about the Amphions in a queue, and work through that list in the order the emails were received. If the first guy on the list changes his mind, or doesn't respond, I'll move onto the second guy, and so on, until someone pays for the watch they want, and they're all gone.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Its amazing to me what weird sh*t causes people to miss and or rebuy a watch...


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## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

Some Thresher Lume shots


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GP_Photography said:


> Some Thresher Lume shots
> 
> View attachment 15676255
> View attachment 15676256


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Its amazing to me what weird sh*t causes people to miss and or rebuy a watch...


What did we miss? I feel like I just walked in on the middle of a conversation I don't remember starting.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I like it better than the guy who ground a flat spot into his crown, so it wouldn't dig into his wrist.


Wait WHAT


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I've been away from WUS for a couple of years and I am back because of my interest in NTH. I have to say that this has been a very entertaining thread (though I am only on page 139, so no spoilers please ).
I've learned a few things, the meaning of WOT, that there are many opinions on what colour blue is, that you don't try to pry off the bezel or file down the crown and, most importantly, the that fact that I love the Devilray.

I have just hit "buy now" on a white one that should arrive next Tuesday but there is a slight problem.....

I am stuck on a survey boat offshore Egypt and will not get home until at least the 11th Feb, and then I might need to isolate in a hotel for 10 days so I wont get to try it on for AGES!

now I am REALLY counting down the days till crew change.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> What did we miss? I feel like I just walked in on the middle of a conversation I don't remember starting.


How could you miss the post about rebuying a blue Devilray because the mouthwash he uses everyday is blue?!


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## fissiontofallout (Aug 3, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> How could you miss the post about rebuying a blue Devilray because the mouthwash he uses everyday is blue?!


It's also got that multicolored 'depth indicator' around the tooth icon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> How could you miss the post about rebuying a blue Devilray because the mouthwash he uses everyday is blue?!


I didn't miss it. I forgot it.

ADHD.

The struggle is real.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here with a Dolphin Magenta they want to sell, there's a guy on Facebook who's scouring the Earth looking for one.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Wait WHAT


Yeah, there was a guy who filed down the crown on his Zwaardvis, creating a flat spot, because it was digging into the back of his hand. I'm looking for the listing now, but can't seem to find it.

In the meantime, I found this...looks like the guy selling the Scorpène with the rounded lugs and blasted case has a real thing for rounded lugs and blasted cases...









NTh Zwaardvis No Date, bead-blasted, Full kit, Un-opened...


I like this watch a lot, and it has tremendous utility value, being essentially brand new. I had Duarte Mendonca bead blast it, i think that's a huge improvement, makes it sit down and lie flatter on the wrist, and it's a nice, thin case too. I'm going to keep the rubber and nylon strap that...




www.watchuseek.com


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> Where my "make more Amphion" guys at? @Avo ? @tregan13 ?
> 
> So...we conducted the spare parts inventory. It appears we have the parts available for Dan to assemble:
> 
> ...


Bummed I missed out on this. Been tied up.

Only thing left is a Sante Fe? What's that one? One Amphion, which one? Behind the curve...

Shot up a flare to [email protected]


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

tregan13 said:


> Bummed I missed out on this. Been tied up.
> 
> Only thing left is a Sante Fe? What's that one? One Amphion, which one? Behind the curve...


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

bolts40 said:


> I bought a blue DevilRay early last year and sold it a few months back. But every day since I have had to look at this Crest bottle every morning... found a used one on ebay that arrived today!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll assume that the reason for selling the 1st DR was not alcohol free.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15677252


Much obliged O Wise and Bearded one. Assuming you're actually bearded ;-)


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

tregan13 said:


> Much obliged O Wise and Bearded one. Assuming you're actually bearded ;-)


Quite bearded. Mountain man beard status.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> Quite bearded. Mountain man beard status.


Nice. A "real" beard then.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Blasted isn't my thing but that does look pretty cool. Seems to be done well also. Looks good with the straps shown.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

As one of the chief "make more Amphions!" hollerers, the no-date is awfully tempting, but alas the gilt look was not what I was pining for &#8230; if only that gold were silver &#8230;

I know, I know, another guy who is just never happy no matter what ... On the other hand, I've pre-ordered an Atticus Icarus from Rusty! So someone in the NTH family is getting some of my money ...


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Anyone here with a Dolphin Magenta they want to sell, there's a guy on Facebook who's scouring the Earth looking for one.


Date or no date?

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> Date or no date?
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Dunno, but I got your PM, and sent him your email.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> As one of the chief "make more Amphions!" hollerers, the no-date is awfully tempting, but alas the gilt look was not what I was pining for &#8230; if only that gold were silver &#8230;
> 
> I know, I know, another guy who is just never happy no matter what ... On the other hand, I've pre-ordered an Atticus Icarus from Rusty! So someone in the NTH family is getting some of my money ...


To your earlier point (or mine), though...

I posted about these here, and to the NTH fans group on FB. It's been 24 hours, and so far I've had - exactly 4 people contact me about them.

This is why, when you or anyone else asks why I don't make more of something, be it the Amphion, or the Dolphin Magenta, and peeps tell me, "Oh, you should make more, you'll sell them all, because there are SOOOOOO many people who want them," I take it with a grain of salt.

I mean...where is everyone? Why isn't my inbox over-flowing with guys looking for an Amphion, fists full of cash, shouting "shut up and take my money!"

I was sure, down deep in my bones, that there wasn't enough demand to make 50, which is what we now make - 25 date, 25 no-date - when we make something like the Amphion. I get that you want the Modern Black, not the Dark Gilt, but it doesn't matter. I could have said it was the Modern Black, or one of each, or two of each, whatever, and I'd have about the same number sold by now.

Trust me, if there was enough demand to rationalize making more, no one would need to brow beat me about it.

When I say, "find 49 friends, and I'll make more," this is why. I'm not being a d1ck, I'm being a business owner.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyhoooo...

The Santa Fe has been claimed. Thank you, @zepX !

I've got a wait-list going for the Amphions, with 4 people on it. When we get the hands from my factory in late Feb or early March, I'll start working my way down that list.

In the meantime, I'll keep adding to the list, if anyone wants to get in line.


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## Earthbound (Sep 11, 2018)

Hey docvail. I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask an NTH question. But here goes! I've noticed many companies have released vintage inspired divers but many are just using colored lume. I have yet to see anyone use the really knurled bezel that can be found on certain vintage divers. As an owner of 2 NTH's and a fan of the size and particulary the quality, can you foresee a release using this style bezel?

















Thanks in advance.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pretty sweet collection one guy on the list has...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Hate i missed the gilt Amphion opportunity. Glad you found a quick buyer!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Earthbound said:


> Hey docvail. I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask an NTH question. But here goes! I've noticed many companies have released vintage inspired divers but many are just using colored lume. I have yet to see anyone use the really knurled bezel that can be found on certain vintage divers. As an owner of 2 NTH's and a fan of the size and particulary the quality, can you foresee a release using this style bezel?
> 
> View attachment 15677816
> View attachment 15677817
> ...


Uhm...









This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


Happy Friday all. Interesting week on my hunt for an Amphion that eventually led me to Mark Kiger's Red Ronin, powered by NTH. He still has a few left. Not sure which Ronin I'll be, 45 or even 46, but excited to see in the mail over the weekend. A fun photoshop concept of how I might turn this...




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Hate i missed the gilt Amphion opportunity. Glad you found a quick buyer!


Email customer support. Get on the list. There are 3 names under date, and 3 under no-date. My hunch is we'll sell them to one of the guys already on there, but you know how these things go. Guys change their mind all the time, and we're 30 days (ish) from finalizing anything.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Email customer support. Get on the list. There are 3 names under date, and 3 under no-date. My hunch is we'll sell them to one of the guys already on there, but you know how these things go. Guys change their mind all the time, and we're 30 days (ish) from finalizing anything.


Thanks, done!


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

These are nice!










Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Blasted Zwaardvis? You know I got that! No silly flat crown though. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bolts40 said:


> These are nice!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Two of my faves, and both keepers in my collection (I think).


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

I agree! But we all know...no watch is safe!

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Blasted Zwaardvis? You know I got that! No silly flat crown though.
> View attachment 15678328
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you buy the one from the link I posted, or is there wide-spread bead-blasting of NTH's happening, and I'm just not aware of it?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bolts40 said:


> I agree! But we all know...no watch is safe!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


I dunno, those two seem pretty safe (I think).


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

How many models and variations before the NTH museum ribbon cutting?


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

docvail said:


> I dunno, those two seem pretty safe (I think).


I think safe for me too. These really are terrific watches.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Blasted Zwaardvis? You know I got that! No silly flat crown though.
> View attachment 15678328
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Alright! Was wondering if you'd see the Zwaardvis bat-signal go up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Did you buy the one from the link I posted, or is there wide-spread bead-blasting of NTH's happening, and I'm just not aware of it?


Hah. No I bought it from a WUS member in September 2019. I posted it here and you "liked" it so I said I was glad you did not object to the apostasy. You said you had no objection to the blasting. I have posted pics of it a handful of times since. I've never seen another blasted one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> Alright! Was wondering if you'd see the Zwaardvis bat-signal go up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Of course! Your memory is clearly better than Doc's.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Of course! Your memory is clearly better than Doc's.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I posted about these here, and to the NTH fans group on FB. It's been 24 hours, and so far I've had - exactly 4 people contact me about them.
> 
> This is why, when you or anyone else asks why I don't make more of something, be it the Amphion, or the Dolphin Magenta, and peeps tell me, "Oh, you should make more, you'll sell them all, because there are SOOOOOO many people who want them," I take it with a grain of salt.


I can't argue with facts. 4 is indeed a small number.

For me there is a damping effect of "decide right now!" Usually, for an in-production watch or a pre-order announcement, I have a lot of time to think "do I really want this?".

But since there's going to be a delay, I will likely get on your wait list, just in case I decide that I really do want a gilt dial after a month or two has gone by.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> How many models and variations before the NTH museum ribbon cutting?


A museum?

Imagine the gift shop!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Hah. No I bought it from a WUS member in September 2019. I posted it here and you "liked" it so I said I was glad you did not object to the apostasy. You said you had no objection to the blasting. I have posted pics of it a handful of times since. I've never seen another blasted one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


2019 is when that one I posted was from. Gotta be the same watch. We only made 20 of the Zwaardvis. There can't be too many guys out there bead-blasting them.









NTh Zwaardvis No Date, bead-blasted, Full kit, Un-opened...


I like this watch a lot, and it has tremendous utility value, being essentially brand new. I had Duarte Mendonca bead blast it, i think that's a huge improvement, makes it sit down and lie flatter on the wrist, and it's a nice, thin case too. I'm going to keep the rubber and nylon strap that...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Bead blasting the case - ok, someone wanted a different finish.

Ruining my beautiful lugs?!




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> 2019 is when that one I posted was from. Gotta be the same watch. We only made 20 of the Zwaardvis. There can't be too many guys out there bead-blasting them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh, my bad. Yes, that's the watch. I was confused because I thought the mod you mentioned had a flattened crown and mine does not. And, I never noticed that the lugs had been rounded when it was bead blasted - the seller (a very nice guy btw) didn't mention that aspect in his post. Now I see it. It's not as extreme as the Scorpene mod you showed. At any rate, it's a great watch either way and I like the way mine looks. As does my teenage son who wants to know when it will pass down to him. Not any time soon I hope!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

rpm1974 said:


> Bead blasting the case - ok, someone wanted a different finish.
> 
> Ruining my beautiful lugs?!
> 
> ...


Aw man. Ignorance was bliss on my baby's lugs. Let's never speak of it again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I think almost every watch I own is "modified" at some level. Different strap, different clasp, different bezel, sapphire crystal...
No lack of love or appreciation for the manufacturer, but microscopic improvements make me like the watch even more.










I do recognize this makes them mine forever, or until I can find an agreeable buyer...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Ahh, my bad. Yes, that's the watch. I was confused because I thought the mod you mentioned had a flattened crown and mine does not. And, I never noticed that the lugs had been rounded when it was bead blasted - the seller (a very nice guy btw) didn't mention that aspect in his post. Now I see it. It's not as extreme as the Scorpene mod you showed. At any rate, it's a great watch either way and I like the way mine looks. As does my teenage son who wants to know when it will pass down to him. Not any time soon I hope!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The flat crown was a different watch.

I can't remember which it was, but I think it might have also been a Zwaardvis. I remember the guy who bought it posted here at least once.

My 18 and 15 year old sons are already arguing about how they'll divvy up my watches when I croak, and the 15 year old is convinced my new (to me) GTI is going to be his in a year.

I told them my will has instructions to bury me with my watches, and that I'll probably die when I wreck the car, so they're both SOL and should just try to spend as much time with me as they can, while they can.

They don't try.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I think almost every watch I own is "modified" at some level. Different strap, different clasp, different bezel, sapphire crystal...
> No lack of love or appreciation for the manufacturer, but microscopic improvements make me like the watch even more.
> 
> View attachment 15678958
> ...


That's the modder's dilemma, innit?

Another forum member had a really sweet Soxa mod that you couldn't even replicate, because the parts were discontinued. I told him to let me know if he ever decided to sell it, which he did. But his asking price, while fair, was more than I could justify paying for a modded SKX.

A lot of the watches we've made as L&H or NTH were born out of that combination of frustration and desire.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> Quite bearded. Mountain man beard status.


Texas and beards =


----------



## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

Been enjoying this all brown combo lately...


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> The flat crown was a different watch.
> 
> I can't remember which it was, but I think it might have also been a Zwaardvis. I remember the guy who bought it posted here at least once.
> 
> ...


We're in exactly the same boat. Mine are 18 and 16. The younger one was been mildly bitten by the watch bug and eyes my collection regularly. Pretty sure he's the only one at his school (when he was at school) rocking a Vostok "Radio Room." Future WIS.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

The majority of my watches are modded, one way or another. And I don't count straps swaps as modding. Probably one of the least modded is my Scorpene, which only has a swapped out bezel insert. I looked at that one Doc linked and first thought: man... if ever there was a Scorpene begging for a cerakote/PVD black bezel, it's that one...

FWIW, I just got a perfectly fine, new Seiko 5 SRPE63... and first thing I did was send the case and crown out to get bead blasted.


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I was not expecting this until Tuesday but I guess the postman is working overtime as it has just been dropped off at home.

13 days until I can see it in person though, unless the rapid changes in COVID rules close even more flight routes, in which case it will be longer. 

I do believe I have the channels for the first time in years


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> I was not expecting this until Tuesday but I guess the postman is working overtime as it has just been dropped off at home.
> 
> 13 days until I can see it in person though, unless the rapid changes in COVID rules close even more flight routes, in which case it will be longer.
> 
> ...


1. Thanks for your business. Enjoy the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

2. "The channels"? Is that a Scottish phrase? I don't understand.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> 2. "The channels"? Is that a Scottish phrase? I don't understand.


Channels
The feeling when you are sailing up the English Chanel and looking to go home
You got the Channels to a young seaman who is anxious to get home


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> 1. Thanks for your business. Enjoy the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.
> 
> 2. "The channels"? Is that a Scottish phrase? I don't understand.





dmjonez said:


> Channels
> The feeling when you are sailing up the English Chanel and looking to go home
> You got the Channels to a young seaman who is anxious to get home


 yup... that

*Definition of channel fever*

*: *an unusual excitement or restlessness common among a ship's crew when the ship nears port after a voyage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Channels
> The feeling when you are sailing up the English Chanel and looking to go home
> You got the Channels to a young seaman who is anxious to get home





gavindavie said:


> yup... that
> 
> *Definition of channel fever*
> 
> *: *an unusual excitement or restlessness common among a ship's crew when the ship nears port after a voyage


I suppose I never thought of it, at least not past the cliché of sailors disembarking and heading directly to the nearest brothel.

Speaking of seamen.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

gavindavie said:


> yup... that
> 
> *Definition of channel fever*
> 
> *: *an unusual excitement or restlessness common among a ship's crew when the ship nears port after a voyage


The stuff that I learn from this group. Now I feel like I need to find some salty old sea shanty to listen to.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Coriolanus said:


> The stuff that I learn from this group. Now I feel like I need to find some salty old sea shanty to listen to.


Ok.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> The stuff that I learn from this group. Now I feel like I need to find some salty old sea shanty to listen to.


Lemme help you out...


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> I suppose I never thought of it, at least not past the cliché of sailors disembarking and heading directly to the nearest brothel.
> 
> Speaking of seamen.


My inner teenager is still highly amused by the fact I have an official document called a "seaman's discharge book".....


----------



## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Ok.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

gavindavie said:


> My inner teenager is still highly amused by the fact I have an official document called a "seaman's discharge book".....


I was also a Seaman in the US Merchant Marines.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Top notch sailing song... Southern Cross.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

Happy Saturday All

Some quick shots of my NTH Kiger Red Ronin Amphion Mod. After some research, I used Dynacraft Golf Grip Solvent, to remove the original bezel insert. Soaked only up to the bezel for a few hours, popped right off, cleaned right up. No heat guns, no popping off bezels. Easiest insert change ever. Thanks for all thoughts and support over the past few weeks. Been a fun journey.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Happy Saturday All
> 
> Some quick shots of my NTH Kiger Red Ronin Amphion Mod. After some research, I used Dynacraft Golf Grip Solvent, to remove the original bezel insert. Soaked only up to the bezel for a few hours, popped right off, cleaned right up. No heat guns, no popping off bezels. Easiest insert change ever. Thanks for all thoughts and support over the past few weeks. Been a fun journey.
> 
> ...


The reason we don't recommend solvents is we don't know what they'll do to the other parts, like the bezel retention ring or click spring, or the crystal gasket.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> The reason we don't recommend solvents is we don't know what they'll do to the other parts, like the bezel retention ring or click spring, or the crystal gasket.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yep, I wouldn't recommend solvents either if they were my customers. I can't remember the guy's name from long island watches, but he did a bit on the golf grip tape solvent. Figured if he was recommending it to his audience, it must be pretty safe. My paranoia from heat guns stems from a ruined watch from a few years ago. A rookie mistake on my part, but I can't move past the trauma 

Having had success modding and aging watches with other solvents, guess I'm more comfortable with chemicals vs. hardware.

A live and learn hobby if you're doing any type of modding yourself.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I have now discovered a Pandora station dedicated to Sea Shanties. I have learned some extremely odd stuff from this thread.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

It's an oldie but a goody.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




----------



## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Birthday bourbon!









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

bolts40 said:


> Birthday bourbon!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Happy birthday!


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

bolts40 said:


> Birthday bourbon!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does drinking it make you stampede??


----------



## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

MikeyT said:


> It's an oldie but a goody.


I really like that logo for some reason...


----------



## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

Crown lume on Thresher


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> It's an oldie but a goody.


I noticed the handset on the Orthos and Skipjack are almost virtually similar? Was this intentional or just running out of hand designs?


----------



## Lionweaver (Mar 1, 2016)

I keep coming back to this one. Easily the watch that gets the most wrist time, either on the stock bracelet or on this Erika's Original strap.
I think it's the perfect balance between tooly/casual/sophisticated for me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I noticed the handset on the Orthos and Skipjack are almost virtually similar? Was this intentional or just running out of hand designs?


Choice of handset is dictated by the design. If the designs are similar, then there's a possibility the hands will be similar.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Rhorya said:


> I noticed the handset on the Orthos and Skipjack are almost virtually similar? Was this intentional or just running out of hand designs?


Dials, too, as is this Ghost Rider:


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15684963


looks great! Im wearing my Skipjack for this big bad east coast snow day.. no pics though as snow days make me lazy lol.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

@docvail how you guys doing today with this crappy snow/rain/sleet/back to snow storm?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> @docvail how you guys doing today with this crappy snow/rain/sleet/back to snow storm?


I have two strapping teenage sons.

So, I'm doing fine.

They're exhausted.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> looks great! Im wearing my Skipjack for this big bad east coast snow day.. no pics though as snow days make me lazy lol.


What is this... "Snow"... that you speak of?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Facebook once again proving how on-point their algorithms are...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> What is this... "Snow"... that you speak of?


It's the white stuff that sends everyone in Texas into a full-blown tizzy the moment one speck of it hits the highway.

Meanwhile, my 80-year old grandmother could power-slide a Cadillac into a grocery store parking space with a foot of it on the ground (before she died, that is).

"Bunch of goddam pansies," she used to say.

I miss you so much, Gam-gam.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> It's the white stuff that sends everyone in Texas into a full-blown tizzy the moment one speck of it hits the highway.
> 
> Meanwhile, my 80-year old grandmother could power-slide a Cadillac into a grocery store parking space with a foot of it on the ground (before she died, that is).
> 
> ...


I lived in the Buckeye state before the Lone Star state, actually. So I ain't too bad at power slides myself. But the stereotypes are true, Texans are pansies when they see snow on the road, hell, if its 50° and raining, they assume the roads are solid ice.

Also, RIP to your Gam-Gam. Sounds like she was a cool old' bitty.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I lived in the Buckeye state before the Lone Star state, actually. So I ain't too bad at power slides myself. But the stereotypes are true, Texans are pansies when they see snow on the road, hell, if its 50° and raining, they assume the roads are solid ice.
> 
> Also, RIP to your Gam-Gam. Sounds like she was a cool old' bitty.


They both were, the absurdly exaggerated, if not entirely untrue stories I tell about them notwithstanding.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Picking up my son at his friends house. 








But the end of my street has some action. I hope they are ok. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Awe, what a cute little frosting...










Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I absolutely loved that this guy dressed up like Cousin Eddie from NL's Christmas Vacation...


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> Pretty sweet collection one guy on the list has...
> 
> View attachment 15677818


Perplexing that someone with such consistent watch choices would have such drastically different armoires in the same room.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

While I wait on USPS to accidentally deliver my NTH....I had my family member that is borrowing my Phantom send me a pic. At least it is being proudly worn lol


----------



## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

All the talk of snow, being out here in Phoenix, AZ we don't see much, but last week we did get some flurries in the valley and quite a bit in the mountains nearby...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Here's a quick size comparison between the NTH Subs and the new Atticus Teleios










The case on these are awesome and it sits so well on my 8' wrists










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Omegafanboy said:


> Here's a quick size comparison between the NTH Subs and the new Atticus Teleios
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They look awesome together! very close in size too.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> Here's a quick size comparison between the NTH Subs and the new Atticus Teleios
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing. I'm gonna dry mine on hot to shrink it just a bit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Take that NTH all day over the Atticus.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

JLittle said:


> Take that NTH all day over the Atticus.


If given a choice...give me both!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Never be afraid to be loud with your choices


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> Never be afraid to be loud with your choices
> View attachment 15690542


Go big or go home bro, im right there with you! looks great!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Mediocre said:


> If given a choice...give me both!


Got a Scorpene; getting a Teleios...


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Amphion Vintage Gilt outside getting snowblind.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

PowerChucker said:


> Amphion Vintage Gilt outside getting snowblind.
> View attachment 15690793
> 
> View attachment 15690802


One of the best looking gilt dial watches under $5k IMO.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Mediocre said:


> One of the best looking gilt dial watches under $5k IMO.


Thanks! 
Im a Rabid Amphion fan! Chris really nailed it with the Vintage Gilt!


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> Got a Scorpene; getting a Teleios...


Got a Scorpene and getting an Icarus!

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Hey doc,

Small suggestion for the v2 subs:

I wore this strap on my Ghost today for the first time and found that the lip on the case was scraping the leather surface right off the strap. You can see the leather bits still sitting on that lip:










My fault for not checking before I wore it, it's just never been something that's happened on my other watches.

On my other watches, there's a short flat spot ground into the case in the middle third of that lip to prevent that rub. The end links are still held securely in place at the sides of the lip.

Might be worth considering for the v2 cases.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Hey doc,
> 
> Small suggestion for the v2 subs:
> 
> ...


You know that never happens with the steel bracelets...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> You know that never happens with the steel bracelets...


J/k.

I'll try to remember to bring it up with my factory before we go to production.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This happens on a number of my shorter lug watches when i switch to a leather strap. Kind of why i stay with a bracelet. But there are times when you just want some dead hide on your wrist.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

RotorRonin said:


> Hey doc,
> 
> Small suggestion for the v2 subs:
> 
> ...


Get some curved spring bars. It should fix this issue

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

Hi all,
I'm a new owner of an nth oberon 2 with beads of rice purchased from a member here. I'm really liking it so far. One thing I'd like to swap out are the spring bars. Does anyone know of a source for quality shoulderless spring bars that extend through the lugs? Sizing the bracelet, I was surprised to find shouldered spring bars that seemed to barely go past the chamfer on the inside of the lug holes. I bought a few sets for other watches from Toxic Natos but it appears that he's closed his doors for the time being. The holes on the nth BoR bracelet are too small for extra the 2mm bars that I have. 
Thanks in advance and stay safe.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

fpicabia said:


> Hi all,
> I'm a new owner of an nth oberon 2 with beads of rice purchased from a member here. I'm really liking it so far. One thing I'd like to swap out are the spring bars. Does anyone know of a source for quality shoulderless spring bars that extend through the lugs? Sizing the bracelet, I was surprised to find shouldered spring bars that seemed to barely go past the chamfer on the inside of the lug holes. I bought a few sets for other watches from Toxic Natos but it appears that he's closed his doors for the time being. The holes on the nth BoR bracelet are too small for extra the 2mm bars that I have.
> Thanks in advance and stay safe.


Try Esslinger


----------



## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> Try Esslinger


Will do and thanks for the fast response.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fpicabia said:


> Hi all,
> I'm a new owner of an nth oberon 2 with beads of rice purchased from a member here. I'm really liking it so far. One thing I'd like to swap out are the spring bars. Does anyone know of a source for quality shoulderless spring bars that extend through the lugs? Sizing the bracelet, I was surprised to find shouldered spring bars that seemed to barely go past the chamfer on the inside of the lug holes. I bought a few sets for other watches from Toxic Natos but it appears that he's closed his doors for the time being. The holes on the nth BoR bracelet are too small for extra the 2mm bars that I have.
> Thanks in advance and stay safe.


FWIW - the spring bars in the BOR's are 1.5mm in diameter, whereas the bars we regularly use in the oysters are 1.8mm.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Getting coffee at the Ridley Wawa on RT.420 in Delco this morning. with my Skipjack (that I got from @DuckaDiesel ) ugh just noticed the fingerprints on the beveled edges. (i hate smudges)


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Are we talking coprolite dials around here, yet...? No? Well we should...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Are we talking coprolite dials around here, yet...? No? Well we should...


Let's leave that $hlt alone.

See what I did there?

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Are we talking coprolite dials around here, yet...? No? Well we should...





docvail said:


> Let's leave that $hlt alone.
> 
> See what I did there?
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Ok, I'm the first to admit when I dont know sh*t about something, so I had to google Coprolite. And you've gotta be kidding me right? Petrified dinosaur crap?

Is there a recent thread somewhere I missed?


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> Ok, I'm the first to admit when I dont know sh*t about something, so I had to google Coprolite. And you've gotta be kidding me right? Petrified dinosaur crap?
> 
> Is there a recent thread somewhere I missed?


Doc's comment makes more sense now!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

docvail said:


> FWIW - the spring bars in the BOR's are 1.5mm in diameter, whereas the bars we regularly use in the oysters are 1.8mm.


Thanks for the specs. Hmmm. The search continues. I'm not sure why there's no such thing as an "industry standard" in the watch world. I don't think anybody makes springbars that will work for this dumb search. The weakest link? I'd happily drill out these lugs to fit a more secure springbar but the meat in the bracelet may fail if I do the same to accommodate the for say, Marathon or the millions of rolex shoulderless bars that are out there. This bracelet feels great but I may just swap it out for an aftermarket one. 
Brass tacks, if you're making a tool watch, that's part of the thing. whatever. I'll figure it out. 
I really like this watch head and you have done a fine job and I'm going to use it. The bezel is beautiful, the size, slimness, water resistance, all that. 
The reason I'm asking is that I've lost watches because of the weakest link. Please don't take offense, I respect the work you've put into these watches. In hand, the quality shows. 
If it matters, I've had/have an inherited a lovely rolex bubble back, thankfully in my brothers hands now. Bought and lost a Heuer diver. Still have Seiko 6105-8119, Tudor sub 76100 lollipop. Sold a Nautilus 500m-similar case/same manufacturer as the Eterna super kontiki. Have a Squale cased lumed bezel Briel Manta. Sold a Marathon SAR-D. 
Some years back the SAR was the ****. As thick and stubby as the Eterna Kontiki super/Scubapro 500. A solid idea of a burly "tool watch" that pre dated big watches. Well, that's debatable but it was the "best of the bunch" then. No denying quality. The damed thing was like a secret status brick to those in the know. A strange cultural mix of servicemen that were weird for watches and younger folks that think they know better.
Not my thing.

In my eyes, you've got a nice thing going on. Figure out the damed springbar thing. Call me kooky. Hold fast. Do you remember the Orsa watch?

I should stop, I like what you're doing. Keep it up.

P.S. I'm a hands on fabricator/designer person. Industry standards are a benchmark of design research and development. Unless you have millions of dollars to **** them all and make a new benchmark.

P.P.S. I'm a big fan of the watch you made that I have right now.

Best and stay safe.

P.P.P.S
Pay attention to the weakest link. You don't seem like you're making a decorative watch for desk divers. 
I haven't written anything like this on a ****ing watch forum for some 20 years. **** me. 
Good for you Bucko. I'm happy with the head of this watch. Everybody has an opinion.

stay safe


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I smell a WOT coming, anyone else?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Ok, I'm the first to admit when I dont know sh*t about something, so I had to google Coprolite. And you've gotta be kidding me right? Petrified dinosaur crap?
> 
> Is there a recent thread somewhere I missed?


Earlier today on FB...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Earlier today on FB...
> 
> View attachment 15693371


I simply googled "Coprolite dial watch" and this was result #1.
Its been done.
https://www.ablogtowatch.com/waiter-there-is-some-****-in-my-artya-watch/
Edit: stupid forum rules. The link will pull up a 404, but if you replace the "****" with the appropriate four letter word for fecal matter, you'll get there.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Just learned about a new word for fancy poop, thanks WUS


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fpicabia said:


> Thanks for the specs. Hmmm. The search continues. I'm not sure why there's no such thing as an "industry standard" in the watch world. I don't think anybody makes springbars that will work for this dumb search. The weakest link? I'd happily drill out these lugs to fit a more secure springbar but the meat in the bracelet may fail if I do the same to accommodate the for say, Marathon or the millions of rolex shoulderless bars that are out there. This bracelet feels great but I may just swap it out for an aftermarket one.
> Brass tacks, if you're making a tool watch, that's part of the thing. whatever. I'll figure it out.
> I really like this watch head and you have done a fine job and I'm going to use it. The bezel is beautiful, the size, slimness, water resistance, all that.
> The reason I'm asking is that I've lost watches because of the weakest link. Please don't take offense, I respect the work you've put into these watches. In hand, the quality shows.
> ...


Even though I write walls of text, I don't typically read 'em. Yes, I'm aware of the irony, and how that potentially sounds arrogant. Blame my ADHD, but also go ahead and hit "Enter" every couple of sentences, so those of us who are attention-challenged can keep up.

I did try to glean the gist of what you wrote by skimming it, so here goes...

1. Our stock spring-bars (1.8mm), that come in the Subs...

They're not shoulder-less because, while that would make them less likely to pop out on their own, that can also make them much harder to get in. The last thing I need is more emails, these new ones coming from people who are cursing and gnashing their teeth trying to wrestle shoulder-less spring bars into place.​​Also, they're 1.8mm because that's the size that will fit the Oyster's end-links.​​If someone wants shoulder-less spring bars, they can find them on eBay easily enough.​
2. Our smaller-gauge spring-bars (1.5mm), that come in the BOR's...

They're 1.5mm because the little beads in the BOR aren't large enough to accommodate a 1.8mm.​​And, if they need shoulder-less, there's eBay, or Esslinger, or Otto Frei, or whoever.​
If you can't find 'em, maybe that means no one makes 'em.​
Don't knock a 1.5mm spring bar. They have their place. I've jammed enough 1.8mm's into rubber straps to know a lot of those bars ain't never coming out again. I just ordered 3,000 1.5mm's to go with all the tropic straps we've got coming, and all the fitted rubber straps that are also coming.

All that said - I've been saying for years that spring bars have to be the stupidest way to keep a watch on your wrist. Yes, they are the weakest link.

If we were to migrate to one-piece threaded screw-bars, that would be much more secure, but since almost no one in the industry uses them, there are no after-market suppliers for them. God help you if you lose one, and can't get one from the OEM.

Also - you think lugs get scratched up now, messing with spring bars? Wait until your screw-driver slips while fussing about with screw-bars. Talk about cursing and gnashing of teeth.

Also - they'd require all lugs to be drilled through, and not all lugs _CAN_ be drilled through, so say goodbye to any design with too-short lugs, like the DevilRay, or lugs that can't be drilled for other reasons, like the Tropics.

After thinking about the spring-bar problem long and hard, I came to the conclusion that as stupid as they seem, a lot of great minds came before me, and they all must have realized that spring-bars are the best solution the industry could come up with.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

While I prefer screw secured links, they are annoying for endlinks, soooo many 1.2mm stab wounds... 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> I smell a WOT coming, anyone else?


It's a WOT off!

Wonder what they said? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Tgif
> View attachment 15693526
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Interesting! I rarely prefer stainless inserts but it looks great in that photo. Hint of an interesting strap as well. More pix to share?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

3WR said:


> Interesting! I rarely prefer stainless inserts but it looks great in that photo. Hint of an interesting strap as well. More pix to share?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you. Monstraps adjustable strap.
















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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Thank you. Monstraps adjustable strap.
> View attachment 15693674
> View attachment 15693675
> 
> ...


Dang. I love my Ghost as is, but that looks sharp.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Why don’t the watch bracelet manufacturers use something other than the most useless of all driver head? Are they that much cheaper? Size limits? Sooo many options...

Phillips

Hex(I’ve one bracelet with these, it’s a thick one Armida A5)

Torx 

Robertson

Etc...

...when’s the last time anyone(machine screws/electrical service exempted) used a slotted screw, and didn’t either bleed, or employ colourful euphemisms? I can remember a few events when trying to drive(or remove) slotted wood screws, and was sorely tempted to employ the “gasoline plus matches” finishing method...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Why don't the watch bracelet manufacturers use something other than the most useless of all driver head? Are they that much cheaper? Size limits? Sooo many options...
> 
> Phillips
> 
> ...


Ever look at a movement through a display case-back? Every screw is slotted.

I'm not an expert on hardware. There must be a reason.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ever look at a movement through a display case-back? Every screw is slotted.
> 
> I'm not an expert on hardware. There must be a reason.


Ugh, I've swapped a few day/date wheels on NHxx movements... getting them out, relatively easy... back in, slightly less...

Rodico is my friend.

I would guess that there's a logic, and I hope it's not one of those "it's just always been that way"...

...hm, I'll need to open one up, I seem to have a recollection that there's a Phillips in there... might've been a battery retainer on a quartz...

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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

RotorRonin said:


> Dang. I love my Ghost as is, but that looks sharp.


Thanks man. I always wanted a ghost bezel and this was the closest thing lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I dunno if I missed the email blast from John over at WG, or if I just happened to see it before it went out(wandered over there to look at the Formex quick adjust deployants, decided to get an unbranded version from LIW), but the v2 Tropics are now up on the wait list page of his site.

I decided to break away from my norm and slapped my name on the list for an Absinthe.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm not an expert on hardware. There must be a reason.


Tradition. Watches were made in the 1800s, before advent of fancy schmancy fastener heads.

Torque. Slotted head will strip out before threads do. Protects tiny components and screw threads. Ref. JIS cross-head vs. Philips-head spec - philips head is designed to torque out of the screw before damage can be done.

...maybe?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Tradition. Watches were made in the 1800s, before advent of fancy schmancy fastener heads.
> 
> Torque. Slotted head will strip out before threads do. Protects tiny components and screw threads. Ref. JIS cross-head vs. Philips-head spec - philips head is designed to torque out of the screw before damage can be done.
> 
> ...maybe?


I only got about half of that, maybe.

Conceptually, I get that almost any other type of screw head would seem to be a better choice than a slotted head, in terms of the likelihood a driver will slip out or the head will get stripped.

Then again, with Phillips head screws being so ubiquitous, I've encountered many, probably hundreds of stripped P-head screws over the years. I think my wife using my drill-driver accounts for about half of them.

I actually have some torx drivers in my tool box. I've never needed to use one. Not ever. Not that I'm going around checking the hardware on every doo-dad I encounter, but I'm almost 50, and I've yet to need a torx driver for anything. I can't even recall ever encountering a torx screw on anything.

And, despite the slotted screw's apparent obsolescence, they're still being used in everyday applications, not just watches. Every light-switch and outlet cover I see is attached with a slotted screw. There must be a reason. It can't solely be tradition.

As the brand owner, I have to think about the user experience, in total, from taking the watch out of the box the first time, to dealing with hardware years down the road. Very often, it's been suggested to me that we have to build to the least intelligent customer, the one who will most likely grasp the concept of a flat head screw, but is more likely to be stymied by something like a torx head screw.

In my observation, the brands that have used fancier screws for bracelets and what not also tend to supply a driver with the watch. That sounds great, in theory, but it leads me to consider the implications on packaging, and total costs, as well as the long-term expectation many customers may have that if they lose the driver, we'll have replacements available.

The thing about spring-bars is that they're universal. If you lose one, you don't need to get a replacement from the company that made the watch. You can get them anywhere. That's also true about small, flat-head screwdrivers.

Out of curiosity, I just searched Amazon for "Small torx head screwdrivers". I found a few sets, so perhaps this isn't the potential mine-field I was imagining it would be.

But, then again, whereas I'm sure everyone here can instantly grasp the concept of a flat-head screwdriver with a 1.2mm wide tip, I'll be damned if I can make heads or tails of what would appear to be the measurements on the set of torx drivers I'm looking at. I assume T3 through T10 are the driver sizes, suggesting that torx hardware comes with its own units of measurement, rather than using either imperial or metric units.










Now, imagine me selling the watch to some uninitiated neophyte, who doesn't know what a torx head is. They email us to ask how to size the bracelet. We reply back they need to buy a T-whatever torx driver.

They ask what a torx driver is. We explain it's like a phillips head screwdriver, but different. They ask what T-whatever means. We explain that's the size. They ask why we don't include the driver, if we're going to be a pain in the a$$ by not just using flat-head screws? Some others will ask if we sell the drivers.

It never ends. Just kill me now.

Multiply that by a few hundred people per year. The time spent dealing with those cases starts to become a pretty big time-suck, and I wonder why we just didn't stick with the flat-heads in the first place.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I only got about half of that, maybe.
> 
> Conceptually, I get that almost any other type of screw head would seem to be a better choice than a slotted head, in terms of the likelihood a driver will slip out or the head will get stripped.
> 
> ...


Simple solution... you must fill out a questionnaire to analyze your knowledge of and access to standard and obscure tools and sizes before every watch purchase.

As for Torx. I love em. But I do have to work with a ridiculous assortment of fasteners and hardware, so I've already got the tools for pretty much anything that comes my way.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Simple solution... you must fill out a questionnaire to analyze your knowledge of and access to standard and obscure tools and sizes before every watch purchase.
> 
> As for Torx. I love em. But I do have to work with a ridiculous assortment of fasteners and hardware, so I've already got the tools for pretty much anything that comes my way.


Rusty's decided to use folded split-pins in the Atticus bracelets, because they don't back out.

Fair enough. But when we were using them, I got a lot of emails from people asking how to get them out. Every one of those emails needed a response, with a pic of a split-pin removal tool, and, "you can find them on Amazon and eBay."

That doesn't even get into the occasional cases of split-pins which refused to come out at all.

I've never had to explain a flat head screw to anyone. At most, we've only had to tell people the size driver to use.

For me, as the brand owner, as much as I'd like to make everything the "best" it can be, the challenge in doing that is we end up running afoul of the 10% rule (people need to be at least 10% smarter than the equipment they're working with).

Ultimately, we've had to make some compromises for the sake of making the product more accessible and appealing to everyone, because the lowest common denominator is often ignorant and / or unappreciative of the benefits we might gain by making the product better.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

And then, there's the arrows on the bracelet links. Don't get me started with arrows for split pins and some bright fella uses screws. So is that slotted head down in the link a pin, or a screw? Well its got an arrow, so cant be a screw...........son of a *****.

Im just torx-ing with ya! 

Actually slotted head screws are very practical especially for small screws. The phillips and other varieties need a little deeper head for the insertion length of the driver. With the tapered shape the phillips requires a deeper slot to get the contact surface.

The biggest error in stripping slotted head screws is that the screw driver needs to be ground down so that the blade completely fills the slot. No wiggle and no taper on the flats of the blade. The screw drivers come almost tapered to a fine chisel point. You are supposed to grind or file the blade so it has the proper shape to fill the entire slot. This allows the turning force to engage the entire depth and width of the slot and will keep the screwdriver more secure in the head of the screw.

Also dont grind the blade with a high speed grinder that would cause the tip of the screwdriver blade to get hot or show burn marks which kills the hardening of the blade. This can make the tip brittle.

I use a small hand file and hone with fine emery paper. Most gunsmiths know this is the way.


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## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

In woodworking I hate all other screw heads than torx. 
Slotted is the product of the devil, phillips is crap and so on.

In electronics I encounter torx and philips and both is fine. Cant remember a slotted screw in an electronic device tbh.

Why on earth all (?) electric outlets, switches, fuses and so on use slotted I just don't get.

For 'finishing' - meaning aesthetic - purposes slotted is the way most people seem to lean.

In short: I am a guy with a strong like / dislike towards screw heads and never ever in my whole life have I thought: "why ain't there a torx head screw in my bracelet instead of a slotted one?!"

Even after this thread I will be totally fine with slotted screws in my bracelets. WIS are a strange bunch sometimes


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I have a set of torx keys, for some reason Ford uses them on the air filter lid on my car. At first glance, they DO look like Allan heads... 

The taper thing for slot heads vs Phillips, seems the most logical explanation. Likely, for most watch enthusiasts, that adjust something once and leave it forever(as well as lose or toss the spare links), slots and split pins and pin and collars, and springbars are totally fine. 

And really, stabbing my thumb with a slot head screw driver, is only adding patina to my fingerprints. Provenance is important...


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I only got about half of that, maybe.
> 
> Conceptually, I get that almost any other type of screw head would seem to be a better choice than a slotted head, in terms of the likelihood a driver will slip out or the head will get stripped.
> 
> ...


My house was built by a gentleman that must've shopped at the discount fasteners store. When I was renovating my bathroom, I needed to buy every imaginable screw driver ever manufactured... and eventually, one single sledge hammer... (and safety goggles)

I really should be thankful that watches have standard fasteners...

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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

FWIW, Ever since I bought the proper 1.2 mm screwdriver, I haven’t had any issues. But getting that Wiha screwdriver was life-changing. 

I would never call myself a professional machinist, far from it, but I have rebuilt several cars and I like to tinker in a home wood shop. And I learned early in my life that getting the right tool for the job made the job about 1000 times easier.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I come across torx screws and bolts frequently enough that I have a set. Kershaw folding knife, bicycle disk brake rotors, Honda motorcycle ignitions... even some deck screw brands. 

The bane of my existence was stripping out cross screw heads on old Japanese motorcycles with philips head screwdrivers. Much too late in life, a buddy told me about JIS cross.head drivers...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Took Tikuna down to Taper Town


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Dang me but that looks like it would be the cat's arse on my Dark Gilt Amphion. Got a link?


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I'd like to see that.









Bonetto Cinturini 295 Black Rubber Watch Strap


Made in Italy, the 20mm Bonetto Cinturini Model 295 black nitrile rubber dive watch strap has a pronounced taper and large vents for vintage Tropic appeal.




holbensfinewatchbands.com


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I drive a swedish volvo (90s box bs newer ford/chinese owned) and they use torx for everything so I've become quite accustomed. 

Once you get used to them they are great. They slot great and rarely if ever strip.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Torx fasteners in the bracelet and torx screwbars. Man. That would be a real game changer. Why do the least intelligent customers have to screw it up for everyone else...









Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I have a couple watches with the torx screws in the lugs and bracelet links. Very overbuilt but i know if i had to hang from it they’re not coming apart!

OWC, NFW, MTM are a few. And whats with the 3 letter brand names? Its like being back in the military anachronism jargon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I have a set of torx keys, for some reason Ford uses them on the air filter lid on my car. At first glance, they DO look like Allan heads...
> 
> The taper thing for slot heads vs Phillips, seems the most logical explanation. Likely, for most watch enthusiasts, that adjust something once and leave it forever(as well as lose or toss the spare links), slots and split pins and pin and collars, and springbars are totally fine.
> 
> ...


Get yourself one of these. No more stabbed digits.










Also - I don't know what watch that bracelet belongs to, but those may be the funkiest links I've ever seen.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Other than the fact that the powder blue picks up every molecule of dirt/dust I deal with on the production floor, this has quickly become my favorite watch/strap combo.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I have a couple watches with the torx screws in the lugs and bracelet links. Very overbuilt but i know if i had to hang from it they're not coming apart!
> 
> OWC, NFW, MTM are a few. And whats with the 3 letter brand names? Its like being back in the military anachronism jargon.


Someone should start a car company named POV.

That's "personally-owned vehicle," for those of you who haven't served in the modern American military.

TRUE STORY - At least when I served (1994-2000), you weren't allowed to transport an Army-issued weapon in a POV.

There was a guy in my Brigade who thought he could get around that rule by holding his M4 out the passenger window of his buddy's car, on the way home from the rifle range.

Technically, the rifle was never inside the POV.

The MP's and the base commander didn't think it was funny, at all.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Someone should start a car company named POV.
> 
> That's "personally-owned vehicle," for those of you who haven't served in the modern American military.
> 
> ...


I mean, technically he wasn't wrong? Can't knock the guy for creative thinking!

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Odin trying out the new Barton silicone/cordura hybrid


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Get yourself one of these. No more stabbed digits.
> 
> View attachment 15696969
> 
> ...


I do have one, just rediscovered it in my box of watch boxes while looking for watches in boxes that I might not have unboxed.

Most of the blood work happens on screwed endlinks, using my thumb and forefinger to attempt to avoid scratching lugs.. though I have stabbed my palm on link screws..

Mind you, I've split knuckles swapping exhaust manifolds on Ford 1.6l engines from underneath, for fun.. Maybe I should switch hobbies, I could(should?) collect Nerf? Or bubble wrap...

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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

POV means something completely different when googled... 


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

captainmorbid said:


> I do have one, just rediscovered it in my box of watch boxes while looking for watches in boxes that I might not have unboxed.
> 
> Most of the blood work happens on screwed endlinks, using my thumb and forefinger to attempt to avoid scratching lugs.. though I have stabbed my palm on link screws..
> 
> Mind you, I've split knuckles swapping exhaust manifolds on Ford 1.6l engines from underneath, for fun.. Maybe I should switch hobbies, I could(should?) collect Nerf? Or bubble wrap...


We have a saying in my family: "it's not truly a project until you bleed..."

My son actually gave me a tourniquet for Christmas.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

92gli said:


> Odin trying out the new Barton silicone/cordura hybrid
> View attachment 15697213
> 
> View attachment 15697215


That looks like a great strap.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

DevilRay. Trying to catch some of the sun ray finishing. I like how the minute hand pops.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

I was reading this thread earlier asking myself “who bleeds while working on a watch?” 

And then not an hour later, I stabbed myself with a tiny screwdriver TWICE while trying to remove the caseback from my wife’s Skagen to change the battery. Those little screwdrivers go real deep, real fast. 

Guess the good book was right: pride goes before the (stab wound)!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Stabbed myself with a screwdriver while trying go get links out of a bracelet plenty of times. It's one of those "you're not a real watch geek until you've done it" things.

I was trying to explain some watch-geekery stuff to someone recently - the online drama and trolling, the nitpicky stuff, the preferences which run counter to the mainstream. Doing that - trying to explain it all - really does drive home how bizarre this hobby seems to normies.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Stabbed myself with a screwdriver while trying go get links out of a bracelet plenty of times. It's one of those "you're not a real watch geek until you've done it" things.
> 
> I was trying to explain some watch-geekery stuff to someone recently - the online drama and trolling, the nitpicky stuff, the preferences which run counter to the mainstream. Doing that - trying to explain it all - really does drive home how bizarre this hobby seems to normies.


yeah, we aint normal bro!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> yeah, we aint normal bro!


I think the traits cut across most, or at least many hobbies, especially those which involve the collecting of anything, judging from what I've seen firsthand, and heard from others. I think collecting is just this side (the sort of sane side) of hoarding, both driven by obsessive-compulsive tendencies.


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

I don't need to be afraid of the dark anyway!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I think the traits cut across most, or at least many hobbies, especially those which involve the collecting of anything, judging from what I've seen firsthand, and heard from others. I think collecting is just this side (the sort of sane side) of hoarding, both driven by obsessive-compulsive tendencies.


That is a very good point. all of my hobbies, seem to include the same obsessive nit picking, and potential arguing among each other about seemingly inane things lol. (Guitars, Mustangs GT's, Gaming computers, home theater, etc.. the list goes on.) This hobby however, is my favorite by far! because my "hoarding" can fit into my sock dwar


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

PowerChucker said:


> That is a very good point. all of my hobbies, seem to include the same obsessive nit picking, and potential arguing among each other about seemingly inane things lol. (Guitars, Mustangs GT's, Gaming computers, home theater, etc.. the list goes on.) This hobby however, is my favorite by far! because my "hoarding" can fit into my sock dwar


You mustn't have many socks

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> You mustn't have many socks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Sure he does. He just keeps them in his watch case.

Because weirdo...


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> Sure he does. He just keeps them in his watch case.
> 
> Because weirdo...


That's actually not a bad idea. Would save me from buying yet another watch case. Convert the sock drawer to watch storage, and put all the socks in the watch case. Problem solved!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> That's actually not a bad idea. Would save me from buying yet another watch case. Convert the sock drawer to watch storage, and put all the socks in the watch case. Problem solved!


I'm here to help!

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Ghost logo playing peekaboo.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone want a gen 1 Santa Cruz, modified with pencil hands?









SOLD!! NTH Santa Cruz No date modded


Due to some upcoming expenses, I have a few watches to sell. Here is the first one. I am sure there's no explanation required for this watch. This was from the first batch and originally owned by one of the member here with the help of Chris Vail. He modded the Pencil hour and seconds hand...




www.watchuseek.com


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## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

docvail said:


> Even though I write walls of text, I don't typically read 'em. Yes, I'm aware of the irony, and how that potentially sounds arrogant. Blame my ADHD, but also go ahead and hit "Enter" every couple of sentences, so those of us who are attention-challenged can keep up.
> 
> I did try to glean the gist of what you wrote by skimming it, so here goes...
> 
> ...


Thanks, I really like the watch that i have. Well done. I'll figure out the springbar thing. 
FYI, If you want to darken the stainless steel you can use a sterling silver blackening product made by JAX. Go figure, the chemisrty, it just works.

Small brushes or q-tips. Wash off in water after application. It's a fairly gentile surface acid to the metal much like pissing in on your fingers.

A few more applications if you want to get a deeper grey. Wipe off, buff, the top bloom on the metal.

Funny, it works.

Spring bars, good, solid spring bars. Your BoR bracelt is great. I have a "cheap" one that's thicker, equally comfortable.

All said, this one watch in hand is lovely


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

fpicabia said:


> It's a fairly gentile surface acid to the metal much like pissing in on your fingers.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Questions for bezel insert hackers. 

Recommended temperature for heat gun?

Surely, the prying action is between crystal and insert, right? ID of insert. 

Tried what felt like hot AF (~300*F) but no hint of loosening. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

At 300 you should have been able to press firmly on the insert while twisting it clockwise (and searing your fingertips at the same time).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pry it out from the inner diameter.

They're held in place with double sided adhesive. It'll come out. Just need to work it.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Thanks, gents. 

Side note: you may not be able to shatter a steel insert. But you can sure scratch one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

fpicabia said:


> Thanks, I really like the watch that i have. Well done. I'll figure out the springbar thing.
> FYI, If you want to darken the stainless steel you can use a sterling silver blackening product made by JAX. Go figure, the chemisrty, it just works.
> 
> Small brushes or q-tips. Wash off in water after application. It's a fairly gentile surface acid to the metal much like pissing in on your fingers.
> ...


To all, pardon the long winded posts and bad grammar. Grieving and drinking too much. Best wishes, stay safe


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## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15702201


yep, patina is done by an acidic reaction to varying materials. Urine on copper turns it green. If you're a whisky drinker, it may end up a bit more, ahem, bright. Digging my grave, have at it.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

fpicabia said:


> To all, pardon the long winded posts and bad grammar. Grieving and drinking too much. Best wishes, stay safe


Long winded posts are sort of the standard in this thread.
And whatever it is you're grieving, I hope the hurt passes and is replaced with fond memories.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fpicabia said:


> To all, pardon the long winded posts and bad grammar. Grieving and drinking too much. Best wishes, stay safe


Hey, you're among friends here. If you can't occasionally wax philosophic, get long-winded, or poke the bear in this thread, then what's the point of having an oasis of collegiality within the innerwebz desert of dysfunction?

I just went back and dug into your earlier post, the semi-rant about spring-bars. There was something about an inherited Rolex bubbleback being with your brother. I'm now guessing the inheritance was recent, meaning a father or someone else close to you recently passed?

Within that context, I can certainly understand the feelings of grief, combined with the sudden anxiety of a precious heirloom possibly being damaged due to the cosmic stupidity of spring bars failing, and how that could spark a sudden obsession with them.

I'm sorry for your loss, and for coming across as snarky in my response, assuming I did.

Please don't take it personally. I'm honestly incapable of consistently recognizing when I should dial it down or simply turn it off. My wife frequently asks me if I'm being sarcastic, and very often, I'm not even sure myself.

I'm not very sentimental, and not at all into collecting vintage pieces, but I understand the sentimental value attached to inherited pieces.

I donated an inherited and somewhat valuable '57 Hamilton Ventura to the Veterans Watchmaker Initiative, for various reasons, but partly because there was no sentimental attachment to it. But because he was so dear to me, I made sure to get my maternal grandfather's quartz, two-tone '70's/'80's Seiko before it was lost. The watch is likely worthless, but it's priceless to me, because it was his.

Story on the Ventura here - Surprise Heirloom - Hamilton Ventura Electric - The...


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## odd_and_vintage_fan (Dec 4, 2014)

That was a lovely Ventura. Glad it went to a good home.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

odd_and_vintage_fan said:


> That was a lovely Ventura. Glad it went to a good home.


I think it did.

VWI is less than an hour from me. Last time I visited, I saw they gave it a place of honor, in the main display case of the little museum in the school's lobby.

After looking into the history of the Ventura, I came to the understanding that those early electric movements were a bit fragile, for lack of a better word. A better description than I can give of the weaknesses can be found here - Electric watch - Wikipedia

I didn't foresee myself wearing the watch often enough to justify the potential ongoing expense of maintaining it. I only wore it once, to my cousin's wedding, not long after I'd received it back from being serviced.

Meanwhile, a watchmaking school for wounded veterans is a cause I can get behind, and they'd be in a better position to service and repair the watch, if and when needed. The school's founder has a history with Bulova, one of the earlier pioneers into electric movements. They were selling electric clocks as far back as 1931.

Worst case scenario, if the school gets hard up for cash, they can hock the watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Thanks, gents.
> 
> Side note: you may not be able to shatter a steel insert. But you can sure scratch one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's possible, if not likely, that your original insert had the new and improved adhesive.

About 2 years ago, watchmaker Dan discovered that our insert supplier had increased the width of the adhesive strip by about 50%. That little change took us from insert swaps being very easy to requiring a bit more effort.

That said, it's still just adhesive. The insert _will_ come out, if one works at it.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Dolphin Iced Coffee

Tastes best in medium light.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

👍


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## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

dmjonez said:


> Long winded posts are sort of the standard in this thread.
> And whatever it is you're grieving, I hope the hurt passes and is replaced with fond memories.


Thank you. All my best


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## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

docvail said:


> Hey, you're among friends here. If you can't occasionally wax philosophic, get long-winded, or poke the bear in this thread, then what's the point of having an oasis of collegiality within the innerwebz desert of dysfunction?
> 
> I just went back and dug into your earlier post, the semi-rant about spring-bars. There was something about an inherited Rolex bubbleback being with your brother. I'm now guessing the inheritance was recent, meaning a father or someone else close to you recently passed?
> 
> ...


Thank you. Dad long gone to suicide. Old rolex is from another family member. Wife died of pancreatic cancer recently. 
Say I love you to those you hold close, best wishes to all


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

3WR said:


> Dolphin Iced Coffee
> 
> Tastes best in medium light.
> 
> ...


That looks great


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fpicabia said:


> Thank you. Dad long gone to suicide. Old rolex is from another family member. Wife died of pancreatic cancer recently.
> Say I love you to those you hold close, best wishes to all


Very sorry for your loss, my friend. Don't know what else to say.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

fpicabia said:


> Thank you. Dad long gone to suicide. Old rolex is from another family member. Wife died of pancreatic cancer recently.
> Say I love you to those you hold close, best wishes to all


Sorry for your losses. Post here anytime, plenty here welcome all sorts of posts, ideas, and sharing.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Anybody have some Oberon II pics on a strap and/or strap recommendations? My bracelet is mint, going to try to keep it that way until I re-enter a post-Covid office.


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## fpicabia (Jan 14, 2021)

docvail said:


> Very sorry for your loss, my friend. Don't know what else to say.


****, yeah, stay goofy,


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

fpicabia said:


> Thank you. Dad long gone to suicide. Old rolex is from another family member. Wife died of pancreatic cancer recently.
> Say I love you to those you hold close, best wishes to all


Sorry to hear. Lost my dad to cancer when I was 26. He was 51. Now I'm 51. Just found out yesterday my 21 year old son has cancer. He'll probably be ok. Detected very early. Tomorrow is guaranteed to no one, they say. My son likes watches. I just bought him one of Rusty's Atticus watches. Can't wait to give it to him! In the mean time, I'll see if he wants to wear my Barracuda! Good luck to all, always!









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Anybody have some Oberon II pics on a strap and/or strap recommendations? My bracelet is mint, going to try to keep it that way until I re-enter a post-Covid office.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bolts40 said:


> Sorry to hear. Lost my dad to cancer when I was 26. He was 51. Now I'm 51. Just found out yesterday my 21 year old son has cancer. He'll probably be ok. Detected very early. Tomorrow is guaranteed to no one, they say. My son likes watches. I just bought him one of Rusty's Atticus watches. Can't wait to give it to him! In the mean time, I'll see if he wants to wear my Barracuda! Good luck to all, always!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's hoping your son will be okay.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is overdue...

Anyone else find the new forum software a bit wonky? Every time I post using a browser, I have to refresh the page. Otherwise, my next post will include a copy of my last post.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Anybody have some Oberon II pics on a strap and/or strap recommendations? My bracelet is mint, going to try to keep it that way until I re-enter a post-Covid office.











Not a 2, but close


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> This is overdue...
> 
> Anyone else find the new forum software a bit wonky? Every time I post using a browser, I have to refresh the page. Otherwise, my next post will include a copy of my last post.


My experience varies by browser, with some I never know if my "likes" actually take until I refresh the page


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> My experience varies by browser, with some I never know if my "likes" actually take until I refresh the page


Haven't had that problem myself.

What browser are you using? I've only used Chrome on the forums, but I'm thinking of switching back to Firefox or something else.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Haven't had that problem myself.
> 
> What browser are you using? I've only used Chrome on the forums, but I'm thinking of switching back to Firefox or something else.


Duckduckgo mobile

Firefox on my laptop has no issues that I have noticed


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Referring back to a recent discussion here...


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## zepX (Apr 4, 2020)

Kick a$$ work @docvail ! Both are fantastic!
Thank you!!!























Sent from my SM-G986U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

zepX said:


> Kick a$$ work @docvail ! Both are fantastic!
> Thank you!!!
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you like it, my friend. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Phantom Friday is no longer a thing, but old habits die hard.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Does anyone else have trouble with the screws on this link? I always used to catch it sliding out on my dolphin and today I caught it happening on my Nacken.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

seatega said:


> Does anyone else have trouble with the screws on this link? I always used to catch it sliding out on my dolphin and today I caught it happening on my Nacken.
> 
> View attachment 15707287


Loctite 222


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Loctite 222


What he said. It wouldn't hurt to Loctite all of the screws on your bracelets.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Didn't even use loctite, just made sure to tighten all the screws when I adjusted the bracelet from new and never have this problem.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

zepX said:


> Kick a$$ work @docvail ! Both are fantastic!
> Thank you!!!
> 
> 
> ...


That Santa Fe with the Catalina bezel is sweet...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Didn't even use loctite, just made sure to tighten all the screws when I adjusted the bracelet from new and never have this problem.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

3WR said:


> Dolphin Iced Coffee
> 
> Tastes best in medium light.
> 
> ...


So is that the Holland bezel you went with or the brown cuda?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> Does anyone else have trouble with the screws on this link? I always used to catch it sliding out on my dolphin and today I caught it happening on my Nacken.
> 
> View attachment 15707287





TheBearded said:


> Loctite 222





MikeyT said:


> What he said. It wouldn't hurt to Loctite all of the screws on your bracelets.


I use clear nail-polish on the threads of any screw I take out while sizing a bracelet. Never had a problem since.

Had a few problems before that, but we don't need to rehash those old stories.

Don't even get me started about the two-layer crystal protector on a Glycince Combat Sub.









So this sucks, part II...problems with a much...


"Doc, how awesome is it to own a watch company? I mean, if you like watches, it's gotta be pretty awesome." Yup, some days it's pretty awesome. But it ain't all champagne tasting and smelly cheeses. I know the image you all have of me - the jet-setting impresario, hobnobbing with the other...




www.watchuseek.com


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

3-1-1 said:


> So is that the Holland bezel you went with or the brown cuda?


Barracuda.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> Yeah, there was a guy who filed down the crown on his Zwaardvis, creating a flat spot, because it was digging into the back of his hand. I'm looking for the listing now, but can't seem to find it.


I know I'm way behind, but I just stumbled on this post..
It was a Bahia. This Bahia to be precise. 😀
No, I wasn't the guy who filed it down.. but I was the lucky one to have bought it from the guy who did.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I use clear nail-polish on the threads of any screw I take out while sizing a bracelet. Never had a problem since.


I'm going to have to try that until I can buy some loctite. I was walking around my house when the screw came out of my dolphin the first time and by some miracle I managed to catch the watch before it smashed into the tile floor. The screw was not fun to find though.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

seatega said:


> I'm going to have to try that until I can buy some loctite. I was walking around my house when the screw came out of my dolphin the first time and by some miracle I managed to catch the watch before it smashed into the tile floor. The screw was not fun to find though.


Great to hear you caught the watch!.. and found the screw! That could have been a bad day! Back in my Rolex days new owners would ask 'what is the white stuff on my bracelet screws?'. Loctite (it dries white). Since then every time I size a bracelet I use it on every screw. I put a drop of loctite on a piece of paper and, with a metal pick tool I have, put some in the hole with the threads not the screw it self, as inserting the screw will sometimes rub some off some loctite from the screw before getting to the hole with the threads.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006GOL5CQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

It's not too early for some red wine is it?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Some closeup love of the Skipjack 

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, seein' as how we're doing watch pix, how about a C300? I think the dial and hands may have been the inspiration for the Skipjack's.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

It's a Skipjack free for all!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

davek35 said:


> Great to hear you caught the watch!.. and found the screw! That could have been a bad day! Back in my Rolex days new owners would ask 'what is the white stuff on my bracelet screws?'. Loctite (it dries white). Since then every time I size a bracelet I use it on every screw. I put a drop of loctite on a piece of paper and, with a metal pick tool I have, put some in the hole with the threads not the screw it self, as inserting the screw will sometimes rub some off some loctite from the screw before getting to the hole with the threads.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006GOL5CQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Yeah, same here. Drop of locker on toothpick to deposit into threaded hole.

I've not had Rolex days. What makes one leave them in the past?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> Well, seein' as how we're doing watch pix, how about a C300? I think the dial and hands may have been the inspiration for the Skipjack's.


Your C300 looks great! I've wanted one of those since they came out. Haven't had a chance yet. Yeah the hands are related for sure! I think the Skipjack pays homage to the Rado Captain Cook.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Rhorya said:


> It's a Skipjack free for all!


I like looking at yours because I can see the difference between the date version and no date version that I have.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Your C300 looks great! I've wanted one of those since they came out. Haven't had a chance yet. Yeah the hands are related for sure! I think the Skipjack pays homage to the Rado Captain Cook.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Skipjack did take inspiration from the Captain Cook, though the design ended up being similar to the C300's.

I wasn't crazy about the Rado's rectangular hour indices, and the mis-matched handset makes my eye twitch, so we changed those, and moved the minute track onto the dial, as opposed to a beveled rehaut.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> The Skipjack did take inspiration from the Captain Cook, though the design ended up being similar to the C300's.
> 
> I wasn't crazy about the Rado's rectangular hour indices, and the mis-matched handset makes my eye twitch, so we changed those, and moved the minute track onto the dial, as opposed to a beveled rehaut.
> 
> View attachment 15709550


Nailed it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

3WR said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol totally Skipjack Saturday!

@docvail thank you for explaining the inspiration for the Skipjack! I've always wanted to ask about the nod to the Captain Cook. I really like the hands! Super legible.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The magic angle...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> I've not had Rolex days. What makes one leave them in the past?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just my opinion for what it's worth. I've never had a Rolex, but I've been through quite a few Omegas and some other expensive brands. I ended up selling all of them but one special titanium Seamaster 300, that ended up being my favorite. The others all got sold. There was just too money involved and not much more function. To me a watch is a tool. I want it to keep time and be comfortable. I can get that for a tiny fraction of the price. If I ever found myself worrying about how people regarded me due to the things that I own, the problem would lie with me and not those people.
I completely understand why people value and respect Rolex. I may still get one someday. But every time I go to punk down 10 or $15,000, I end up getting a boat instead. But that's just me.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

MikeyT said:


> Well, seein' as how we're doing watch pix, how about a C300? I think the dial and hands may have been the inspiration for the Skipjack's.





PowerChucker said:


> Your C300 looks great! I've wanted one of those since they came out. Haven't had a chance yet. Yeah the hands are related for sure! I think the Skipjack pays homage to the Rado Captain Cook.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And then there is the Ghost Rider variant of the Phantom....


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> And then there is the Ghost Rider variant of the Phantom....


Damn that's good looking ! I think this style is my favorite handset.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Just my opinion for what it's worth. I've never had a Rolex, but I've been through quite a few Omegas and some other expensive brands. I ended up selling all of them but one special titanium Seamaster 300, that ended up being my favorite. The others all got sold. There was just too money involved and not much more function. To me a watch is a tool. I want it to keep time and be comfortable. I can get that for a tiny fraction of the price. If I ever found myself worrying about how people regarded me due to the things that I own, the problem would lie with me and not those people.
> I completely understand why people value and respect Rolex. I may still get one someday. But every time I go to punk down 10 or $15,000, I end up getting a boat instead. But that's just me.


Ain't no water skiing off the back of a Rolex...

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Ain't no water skiing off the back of a Rolex...
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Truth. But there was with a Lew and Huey.





  








IMG 0472




__
dmjonez


__
Jun 28, 2016


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Amphion day! God I love this watch !









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> .... There was just too money involved and not much more function. To me a watch is a tool. I want it to keep time and be comfortable. I can get that for a tiny fraction of the price. ...


This^^ . I really like the NTH Barracuda and Borealis Adraga watches. Similar look to the watches they honor, but they are their own take on those watches. But the OP39 feels/fits so good on the wrist, if I ever do get the call that a 214270 is available, I may buckle to temptation. But at this point I doubt it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested - as of this past weekend, we were resupplied with some more 40mm Sub bezel inserts, including the stainless insert for the Barracuda Polar White.

Other than the Catalina and Oberon v.1, we have stock on all insert versions (the Nacken Vintage Blue shows as sold out, but it's the same as the Barracuda Blue, which is in stock).









Replacement Bezel Inserts for NTH Subs


These bezel inserts will fit either the v.1 NTH Subs case, or the v.2 case. Bezel inserts are not returnable. All sales final. Please choose carefully. Use our website contact form for any questions. Insert dimensions: Inner diameter, 30mm. Outer diameter, 38mm. Inserts include pre-installed...




nthwatches.com





As long as I'm talking bezel inserts - I know some peeps here own some version of the Lew & Huey Orthos, to include the Commander 300. We also have almost all versions of those inserts available (all but the black with the white pip, for the "Black Cherry" version"), though supplies are more limited, and we likely won't be ordering more, as we produced them 5 years ago.









Replacement Bezel Inserts for Lew & Huey Orthos


Bezel inserts are not returnable. All sales final. Please choose carefully. Use our website contact form for any questions. Inserts include pre-installed adhesive backing. We do not sell or supply additional adhesive for the re-use of removed inserts. Additional adhesive backing can be purchased...




nthwatches.com


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

The calm before the next snow storm. supposed to hit today or tonight. ugh again. but for now its bright and sunny, and below freezing at 26 degrees F. the Amphion always look great when the sun hits the dial!


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Anyone have one of the DLC subs that is willing to part with the bracelet? If so, hit me up with a PM.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> The calm before the next snow storm. supposed to hit today or tonight. ugh again. but for now its bright and sunny, and below freezing at 26 degrees F. the Amphion always look great when the sun hits the dial!
> View attachment 15716787
> 
> View attachment 15716788


Texan in the cold here... This sucks. I can deal with the cold. I can drive on pretty crappy iced over roads, but most can't. I understand why the Yanks like to poke fun because the smallest amount of snow shuts us down, it _is_ funny. But, we have effectively zero infrastructure to deal with crap like this.

And to top it all off, blackouts. I've been fortunate, but many haven't.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> Texan in the cold here... This sucks. I can deal with the cold. I can drive on pretty crappy iced over roads, but most can't. I understand why the Yanks like to poke fun because the smallest amount of snow shuts us down, it _is_ funny. But, we have effectively zero infrastructure to deal with crap like this.
> 
> And to top it all off, blackouts. I've been fortunate, but many haven't.


yeah its funny, we up here just are so used to it that sometimes its hard to understand when an area isnt able to cope with this kind of weather. I feel for you, and wish you and Texas the best. I saw on the news that the non profit that is responsible for your power grid is in some hot water because of this!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> I saw on the news that the non profit that is responsible for your power grid is in some hot water because of this!


Texas is a "power island". Fun fact for y'all, there's three power grids in the US, East-West-Texas, so we can't exactly "borrow" power from other states. Due to the fact that we have no infrastructure for this, ice/snow has been hell on our substations. Shutdowns and failures. Rolling blackouts to deal with unprecedented(Im so sick of that word) demand. Some of the power loss has affected some water treatment plants as well, causing a "boil water" notice to some folks in Fort Worth. Well.... Ok... But what about those who only have _electric_ appliances?

It's quite the s***show here right now, for sure.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Texas is a "power island". Fun fact for y'all, there's three power grids in the US, East-West-Texas, so we can't exactly "borrow" power from other states. Due to the fact that we have no infrastructure for this, ice/snow has been hell on our substations. Shutdowns and failures. Rolling blackouts to deal with unprecedented(Im so sick of that word) demand. Some of the power loss has affected some water treatment plants as well, causing a "boil water" notice to some folks in Fort Worth. Well.... Ok... But what about those who only have _electric_ appliances?
> 
> It's quite the s***show here right now, for sure.


I grew up right outside El Paso and when I was in high school it got so cold during a snow storm that the outdoor power stations that provided like 50% of our power froze over. We had rolling black and brown outs for weeks due to the damage to the stations. It's really unfortunate that a lot of these systems were designed 30 or 40 years ago before the possibility of storms of these magnitudes existed in Texas


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Texas is a "power island". Fun fact for y'all, there's three power grids in the US, East-West-Texas, so we can't exactly "borrow" power from other states. Due to the fact that we have no infrastructure for this, ice/snow has been hell on our substations. Shutdowns and failures. Rolling blackouts to deal with unprecedented(Im so sick of that word) demand. Some of the power loss has affected some water treatment plants as well, causing a "boil water" notice to some folks in Fort Worth. Well.... Ok... But what about those who only have _electric_ appliances?
> 
> It's quite the s***show here right now, for sure.


I'm a New Yorker living in Texas for 15 years so seeing this is still crazy to me. I've never seen blackouts like this in my life in New York with far worse winters (of course we have the infrastructure there). Texas actually formed ERCOT in 1970 in order to retain autonomy of the power grid and not have any federal regulation. Because of this the internal regulation is loose at best. The government is going to investigate ERCOT though and Texas may be forced to welcome federal oversight and monitoring after this. The power island days may hopefully be coming to an end.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> Texas is a "power island". Fun fact for y'all, there's three power grids in the US, East-West-Texas, so we can't exactly "borrow" power from other states. Due to the fact that we have no infrastructure for this, ice/snow has been hell on our substations. Shutdowns and failures. Rolling blackouts to deal with unprecedented(Im so sick of that word) demand. Some of the power loss has affected some water treatment plants as well, causing a "boil water" notice to some folks in Fort Worth. Well.... Ok... But what about those who only have _electric_ appliances?
> 
> It's quite the s***show here right now, for sure.


Damn bro, come up and stay with us then.. its cold and snowy, but the lights are still on, and the water is safe. We can go track down Chris and grab a beer and a pizza!


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Texas is a "power island". Fun fact for y'all, there's three power grids in the US, East-West-Texas, so we can't exactly "borrow" power from other states. Due to the fact that we have no infrastructure for this, ice/snow has been hell on our substations. Shutdowns and failures. Rolling blackouts to deal with unprecedented(Im so sick of that word) demand. Some of the power loss has affected some water treatment plants as well, causing a "boil water" notice to some folks in Fort Worth. Well.... Ok... But what about those who only have _electric_ appliances?
> 
> It's quite the s***show here right now, for sure.


OT!

Probably an ugly way to get it though...

Feel free to come on up to the place that will freeze your face..

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Pablo.Flox (Oct 6, 2020)

Did a bit of a comparison between my Barracuda and Seiko Blumo (which I had always considered my best lumed watch) and the Barracuda really gives it a very good run for its money.

There might even be a new Lume Kingin the watch box!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My oldest cousin is a big cheese in Exelon's power brokerage operation. It's sort of like a commodities exchange, except instead of trading pork bellies, they trade energy from all over the country, via an interconnected network of power stations. The traders work in a big room with lots of screens on the wall, showing where there's excess power supply, and where it's needed.

I think it's a way for the big utilities to smooth out the ups and downs in demand, across the country, in order to avoid taking it on the chin and losing money, or surprising customers with random price hikes.

I don't really understand every aspect about it. Exelon is a utility company, so it's weird to think of them as having an energy brokerage operation, since they generate and sell energy. But as a utility, one of the biggest in the country, they aren't just trading over the network, they actually control part of that network.

Remember that huge blackout in the north-mid-west in 2003?









Northeast blackout of 2003 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Yeah, they saw that as it was happening, and had to move quickly to stop whatever problem caused it from spreading outward, like a contagion, and knocking power out in a much larger area. The north-east quadrant of the country Exelon serves is the most populated part of it.

I can still vividly recall him saying there was a guy in the room who saw what was happening on the big display, stood up, and shouted, "Oh, $hlt! Shut it down! Shut it down now!" It could have been a much bigger disaster.

Every time I think about him telling me that story, it kind of freaks me out, in light of the stuff we hear about the possibility of an EMP attack on our national power grid. Reading about it, and the series of system failures which exacerbated it, doesn't help. I always get stuck thinking we're just one blip away from returning to the stone age.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

> Every time I think about him telling me that story, it kind of freaks me out, in light of the stuff we hear about the possibility of an EMP attack on our national power grid. Reading about it, and the series of system failures which exacerbated it, doesn't help. I always get stuck thinking we're just one blip away from returning to the stone age.


At least your watch will still work.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> At least your watch will still work.


Right?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Something to think about...






December 2015 Ukraine power grid cyberattack - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org




.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Something to think about...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least that one can be explained by a deliberate attack.

Read the sequence of events for the 2003 blackout, and tell me you don't get a little sick to your stomach.

By the way - this was in AUGUST, not the middle of winter...

12:15 pm - some bad telemetry data causes a power flow monitoring tool to stop working. Some dude fixes the data problem, but _FORGETS_ to restart the monitor tool.
1:31 pm - an entire plant owned by FirstEnergy shuts down in Ohio.
2:02 pm - the _FIRST_ of _SEVERAL_ power lines fails - due to _CONTACT_ with a _TREE_
2:14 pm - an alarm system fails at FE's control room, and is NOT repaired.
3:05 pm - another power line sags into a tree (apparently something that happens when there's a lot of power going through it), causing a trip (failure).
3:17 pm - voltage dips in Ohio. Some system controller takes no action.
3:32 pm - because of the failure in the first power line, the power gets re-routed to another line, which - SURPRISE! - starts to sag into another goddam tree, causing it to fail. System controllers at FE are so focused on the failures, they fail to inform controllers in nearby states.

It just goes on and on like that, for the next hour - more lines tripping, more stations shutting down, stations disconnecting from grids, grids disconnecting from each other, etc.

It's called a "cascading failure" - one thing breaks, power gets re-routed somewhere else, which breaks something else, so on and so on. It didn't end for 4 hours. 256 power plants went offline, 85% of which went offline AFTER they were disconnected from the grid, and most because of automatic protective controls built into the system.

But, yeah, windmills - within the last 2 days, I heard some snippet on the news that the energy created by windmills is stored in batteries - for all of fourteen seconds. If it isn't used within that time, it's gone.

I get pissed when my wife turns the air conditioning off in the middle of summer, and it takes four hours to cool the house down. I don't want to ponder what would happen if we lost power for more than 12 hours. I'm imagining my house quickly breaking into tribal factions, like the penal colony in "No Escape".


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Cascading Failure.


Such an elegant phrase that really slips across the tympanic membranes without really expressing its girth.


Also, my bank balance.... similar... heh?


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Texan in the cold here... This sucks. I can deal with the cold. I can drive on pretty crappy iced over roads, but most can't. I understand why the Yanks like to poke fun because the smallest amount of snow shuts us down, it _is_ funny. But, we have effectively zero infrastructure to deal with crap like this.
> 
> And to top it all off, blackouts. I've been fortunate, but many haven't.


I spent 14 years in N Dakota and four in S Dakota. Yuck to all of that carpy weather.

As far as driving poorly, here in Utah, people don't need a reason to be a carpy driver, it's just how they drive. For example, about two hours ago, I was at a busy four way intersection. I was 2nd in line in right lane going forward. When the light turned green, the guy in front of me didn't start out right away, and when he did he then turned on his left turn signal while in the intersection. Then he turned left, from the far right lane, when it isn't even legal to do in the left lane (since there was left turn lane too). So imagine. Left turn lane, left lane, right lane, busy intersection, and the guy in the right lane turned left.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLittle said:


> I spent 14 years in N Dakota and four in S Dakota. Yuck to all of that carpy weather.
> 
> As far as driving poorly, here in Utah, people don't need a reason to be a carpy driver, it's just how they drive. For example, about two hours ago, I was at a busy four way intersection. I was 2nd in line in right lane going forward. When the light turned green, the guy in front of me didn't start out right away, and when he did he then turned on his left turn signal while in the intersection. Then he turned left, from the far right lane, when it isn't even legal to do in the left lane (since there was left turn lane too). So imagine. Left turn lane, left lane, right lane, busy intersection, and the guy in the right lane turned left.


Drunk Mormons.

The worst.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

For anyone interested - as of this past week, I have a slightly scratched (I mean, beautifully weathered for vintage effect) Dolphin bezel insert in stock. 

Mostly a bad joke. But if someone wanted to replicate kpjimmy's bad a$$ Nazario Ghost with stainless bezel...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Wasn't someone jonesing for some Torx fasteners on their wrist? OWC case back could be your fix.

Pretty sure I don't have a torque wrench for 0.175 Nm.

Other:

Case Back Stainless Steel with 6 Torx Screw (Torque: 0.175 Nm approx..)
Edit: Wait, just noticed this, too. Torx in bracelet sounds familiar. I'm too lazy to go back and check. Apologies if OWC example has been covered.

All links removable via Torx screws


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> Texan in the cold here... This sucks. I can deal with the cold. I can drive on pretty crappy iced over roads, but most can't. I understand why the Yanks like to poke fun because the smallest amount of snow shuts us down, it _is_ funny. But, we have effectively zero infrastructure to deal with crap like this.
> 
> And to top it all off, blackouts. I've been fortunate, but many haven't.


Been out of running water since Tuesday 5.30pm cst. Been dealing with 12 hrs of blackouts as of recent. We had power return this morning at 5am but just went out an hour ago.

Looking for a place for a shower soon.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Been out of running water since Tuesday 5.30pm cst. Been dealing with 12 hrs of blackouts as of recent. We had power return this morning at 5am but just went out an hour ago.
> 
> Looking for a place for a shower soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Keeping you and the rest of our friends in Texas and the midwest in our thoughts and prayers. Please be safe.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> Been out of running water since Tuesday 5.30pm cst. Been dealing with 12 hrs of blackouts as of recent. We had power return this morning at 5am but just went out an hour ago.
> 
> Looking for a place for a shower soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


So sorry to here that man, I know it's been seriously tough for a lot of folks. Fortunately it seems the worst is over and the temps will be continually rising over the coming days. I think I saw predictions in the 60s next week.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

For those who rarely venture into the public forum.
Kiger has drawn the attention and ire of the all mighty Rolex.









Rolex wants to take a microbrand’s trademark


Kiger, a watch micro brand made by Mark Kiger is the David in a David vs Goliath battle with one of the biggest Swiss watch brands you know: Rolex. Why would Rolex pick on a small-time watch guy wi…




www.wristwatchreview.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Been out of running water since Tuesday 5.30pm cst. Been dealing with 12 hrs of blackouts as of recent. We had power return this morning at 5am but just went out an hour ago.
> 
> Looking for a place for a shower soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yeesh. Sorry to read this, Jim.

Truth - many times I've caught myself semi-ignoring the plight of others living outside my general vicinity. It's like, if there's a tornado in Oklahoma, I don't know anyone who lives there, so it's "not really happening". The only weather I used to care about is the 12 inches of snow dumped over my head.

But more recently, especially since I started this business, every time there's any sort of environmental disaster happening anywhere, I start to go through the mental rolodex of customers and friends, trying to think of who I know in those places, if only to ask if they're alright.

Of course, freaking Rusty had to live in the bayou, right? I feel like I'm asking him if he's prepared for the hurricane coming his way every other week.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> For those who rarely venture into the public forum.
> Kiger has drawn the attention and ire of the all mighty Rolex.
> 
> 
> ...


Uh-oh. That's not going to be good for anyone.

I remember when Mark told me he trademarked the term "MilSub". I honestly thought it was a genius move, and wish I could have thought of it.

Some of the higher-profile IP suits lately have me concerned. I thought the AP v. SWI suit set a bad precedent. I was and still am concerned that large, well-funded brands will start launching nuisance suits against smaller homage makers.

The Swatch v. Vortic suit, while not appearing to have any direct implications for my business, is nonetheless worrisome, inasmuch as it shows that a small company like Vortic can't gain any prominence without attracting the attention of a larger, and in that case clearly vindictive, competitor.

This suit hits close to home. Even if Kiger prevails on the "MilSub" trademark, he's obviously on Rolex's radar, which means NTH very likely is, too.

Wonder when I'll be getting that C&D letter...


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Such an awesome watch, the original was great but a couple of small mods took this to the next level........

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Uh-oh. That's not going to be good for anyone.
> 
> I remember when Mark told me he trademarked the term "MilSub". I honestly thought it was a genius move, and wish I could have thought of it.
> 
> ...


I don't have any knowledge when it comes to s*** like this, but it honestly seems like Rolex doesn't have a leg to stand on. They never sold a branded "MilSub", and Mark followed the letter of the law pertaining to trademarks. He simply got there first.

Oh, and if you weren't on the Crowns radar, you will be after they see this article. You and NTH were mentioned.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I don't have any knowledge when it comes to s*** like this, but it honestly seems like Rolex doesn't have a leg to stand on. They never sold a branded "MilSub", and Mark followed the letter of the law pertaining to trademarks. He simply got there first.
> 
> Oh, and if you weren't on the Crowns radar, you will be after they see this article. You and NTH were mentioned.


That's basically my point.

Re, the legitimacy of Kiger's claim to the Milsub TM - who occupies the legal high-ground seems to matter less than who has the deeper pockets. If the case isn't dismissed by the USPTO, without needing to be argued by an attorney, Kiger could lose the battle before it begins, if he doesn't have the stomach or the resources to wage a long, very expensive legal battle.

I look at the Vortic case as an example. Vortic HQ is in Colorado. Swatch filed in NY. Every time a hearing was scheduled in NY, Vortic incurred travel costs, on top of legal fees. Did you read how many of those hearings or meetings were cancelled, last-minute, by Swatch? Clearly, there was some gamesmanship happening there. That fight has already cost Vortic more than $100k, and it isn't even over yet, as Swatch has appealed the lower court's decision.

Likewise, Kiger is in Florida, last I heard. I assume the USPTO is in DC. Even if the USPTO dismisses the case, for all I know, Rolex might and likely will appeal that decision. Wherever Rolex might file suit, I bet it won't be in FL.

As for me and NTH, yeah, I'm not ecstatic to see my name and NTH mentioned in the article, regardless of the intent behind it, which was no doubt honorable.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> That's basically my point.
> 
> Re, the legitimacy of Kiger's claim to the Milsub TM - who occupies the legal high-ground seems to matter less than who has the deeper pockets. If the case isn't dismissed by the USPTO, without needing to be argued by an attorney, Kiger could lose the battle before it begins, if he doesn't have the stomach or the resources to wage a long, very expensive legal battle.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure they're both going to lose.

Rolex doesn't have a claim to "Milsub," because they never marketed a watch as Milsub and Milsub has historically been used to refer to a lot of different watches, including some Rolexes but also Omegas, Torneks, Panerais, and of course even Kiger. This is great in that it means Rolex can't have it, but its a double edged sword. The term "Milsub" has a meaning that the watch community knows and understands: it's a generic term that instantly brings to mind a specific type of watch. That's bad for Kiger, because you can't trademark a generic term unless you can prove that your brand has created a secondary meaning in the term that makes an ordinary consumer think of your specific offering, not just an overall type of product or service. Even though I really want Kiger to win, I just don't think that's the case here, and so even though Rolex probably won't get the trademark, Kiger will probably still lose it.

The silver lining? If a term is deemed generic that means anyone in the industry can use it, so no damages for Rolex. Not that they need them, since they seem to be finding new ways to make money everyday.

Disclaimer: The contents of this post is intended to convey general information and conversational material only and not to provide legal advice or opinions.
(Obligated to say this)


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Uh-oh. That's not going to be good for anyone.
> 
> I remember when Mark told me he trademarked the term "MilSub". I honestly thought it was a genius move, and wish I could have thought of it.
> 
> ...


Fingers crossed their buyout offer makes you ditch NTH with a smile!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> I'm pretty sure they're both going to lose.
> 
> Rolex doesn't have a claim to "Milsub," because they never marketed a watch as Milsub and Milsub has historically been used to refer to a lot of different watches, including some Rolexes but also Omegas, Torneks, Panerais, and of course even Kiger. This is great in that it means Rolex can't have it, but its a double edged sword. The term "Milsub" has a meaning that the watch community knows and understands: it's a generic term that instantly brings to mind a specific type of watch. That's bad for Kiger, because you can't trademark a generic term unless you can prove that your brand has created a secondary meaning in the term that makes an ordinary consumer think of your specific offering, not just an overall type of product or service. Even though I really want Kiger to win, I just don't think that's the case here, and so even though Rolex probably won't get the trademark, Kiger will probably still lose it.
> 
> ...


I plan to talk to my IP attorney ASAP.

On the agenda:

1. How much of a concern is it that we are using the term "Sub"?

Logically, it seems like a pretty generic term, but perhaps the likely assumption that it's an abbreviated form of another company's trademarked term is problematic, especially in light of this MilSub kerfuffle.

2. In light of the above, should I now be concerned about either a TM infringement case, a trade dress case (like AP v. SWI), or both?

If I'm now on Rolex's radar, is there an increased concern due the combination of using the term "Sub" and the visual similarities between NTH models and the coronet's back catalog?

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Fingers crossed their buyout offer makes you ditch NTH with a smile!


Seriously, anyone with $1.2M can have it all.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Seriously, anyone with $1.2M can have it all.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


I woulda put a much, much higher number there. That way when the Rolex attorneys come through reading they know what to offer to buy you out!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Put my Oberon on an Artem


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I plan to talk to my IP attorney ASAP.
> 
> On the agenda:
> 
> ...


All I'm gonna to say is if Rolex can sue every watch company that uses the word sub for damages they are about to become the richest company on earth.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I woulda put a much, much higher number there. That way when the Rolex attorneys come through reading they know what to offer to buy you out!


Meh. For every Movado willing to pay $100M for an MVMT, there are hundreds who'll want to spend $50,000 doing their "due dligence" on a sub $5M acquisition.

If I can save us both the trouble by throwing a more realistic number out there, and if that makes it more likely we'll have a deal, all the better.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

One day Rolesque will wish they had thought to name their watches after actual subs!


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

docvail said:


> Movado willing to pay $100M for an MVMT


Everytime I'm reminded of that story, I want to find out where the Movado board got that sweet, sweet bud they must have been smoking when they decided to do that. Must be mindblowing stuff.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

watchcrank_tx said:


> Everytime I'm reminded of that story, I want to find out where the Movado board got that sweet, sweet bud they must have been smoking when they decided to do that. Must be mindblowing stuff.


That decision was_ not_ made on herb, man.
That was nose beer. And lots of it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> All I'm gonna to say is if Rolex can sue every watch company that uses the word sub for damages they are about to become the richest company on earth.


That may be true enough, but I don't think Swatch is hoping to get money out of Vortic. I think they'll be happy enough to force Vortic into bankruptcy.

Likewise, if Rolex comes after me, it won't be for money, it will be to set a precedent. Shut down one homage maker, you send a message to the rest - get out of Dodge, while you can.

This is why the AP v. SWI suit was so problematic, in my view. SWI didn't infringe on AP's brand marks, or any patent. As I understand it (and admitting that I'm a laymen, not a lawyer), AP successfully argued that the visual similarity in the two companies' products was enough to cause confusion in the market, and thus unfairly hurt AP's business.

Taking that sort of argument to its logical conclusion, any big brand could allege that another, smaller brand's product is just too similar to the big brand's, and thus a trade dress infringement.

They don't have to be legally right, or prevail in court. The cost of litigation is so high that most small businesses faced with that sort of suit are going to fold like a lawn chair, long before the case makes it into a courtroom.

The Swatch v. Vortic case is also worrisome, even though Vortic won an early victory. Aside from the enormous expenses Vortic has incurred, which is the main concern, the inherent ambiguity in the underlying nature of the claims is unsettling.

I'm somewhat expecting my attorney to tell me to stop using the term "Sub", not necessarily because it isn't generic enough, but because I'm using it in conjunction with homages, and Rolex might come after me just to make a point.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> That may be true enough, but I don't think Swatch is hoping to get money out of Vortic. I think they'll be happy enough to force Vortic into bankruptcy.
> 
> Likewise, if Rolex comes after me, it won't be for money, it will be to set a precedent. Shut down one homage maker, you send a message to the rest - get out of Dodge, while you can.
> 
> ...


I would expect them to go after Steinhart first, if they chose to bother with anyone after Kiger


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

docvail said:


> I remember when Mark told me he trademarked the term "MilSub". I honestly thought it was a genius move, and wish I could have thought of it.


As a taxpayer funding the USPTO infrastructure, I'm irritated he was allowed to trademark an expression that he himself claims to be generic, if the sworn statement posted to public is genuine.  *EDIT: the sworn statement was by an expert Kiger enlisted to defend the trademark, not from Kiger himself. Reading comprehension failure on my part.*

I'm inclined to believe that Rolex are just trying to bust a bogus trademark that could cause problems for their advertising or history departments rather than actually planning to release a Tudor milsub. If they're awarded the trademark, I'm sure they'll be delighted, but I doubt they expect it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchcrank_tx said:


> Everytime I'm reminded of that story, I want to find out where the Movado board got that sweet, sweet bud they must have been smoking when they decided to do that. Must be mindblowing stuff.


I still find that deal very interesting. And likewise, I'd love an explanation for how they rationalized that sort of valuation.

I've said this before, elsewhere, but my best guess is that Movado looked at the sales volume MVMT was doing, and felt like they could buy the user-base, but lower their costs and increase the brand's sales volume. In essence, they were making a very speculative play, basing their valuation on what they thought they could make out of MVMT, as opposed to simply paying what the biz was worth, which appears to have been nothing.

Movado's stock has taken quite the tumble since then. Not all that surprising, really, if the MVMT deal is indicative of their board's decision-making. The year they did that deal, 2018, they lost $15M on almost $600M of revenue, and almost $650M of assets. The stock price peaked around $52 right before that deal. It's current 52-week low is around $8.

Business valuation is as much art as it is science. Depending on my motivation, I could argue my business is worth $2M, as a multiple of cash flow, or less than $100k, based on the balance sheet.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I would expect them to go after Steinhart first, if they chose to bother with anyone after Kiger


That raises interesting questions, doesn't it?

I can't imagine Rolex isn't aware of Steinhart. Why hasn't Rolex gone after them?

I'm not sure how it goes in Germany, or in the EU generally, but in the UK, as an example, and unlike here in the US, the general rule is that the loser of a lawsuit pays the winner's legal costs. Logically, that has a chilling effect on frivolous suits. Most people would want to be very sure they'll win before filing.

The point I'm making - perhaps Rolex hasn't sued Steinhart for trade dress infringement because they might lose, which would be both costly and embarrassing.

Here in the US, the outcomes could be dramatically different. Even if a business prevails in court, there's no guarantee they'll recover their legal costs from their opponent. Win or lose, the legal war is likely to be costly, which forces many to settle without a fight.

And, again, for all of Steinhart's visual similarities to Rolex, have they used any terms which Rolex could argue are infringing on their trademarks? I don't think they have.

All I'm saying is that I'd like to stay off of Rolex's radar as long as I can, steer clear of them as much as I can, and no matter what I do, or don't do, or terms I use, I don't need to be dragged into another brand's legal battle with them.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Call them whatever if it comes to that. NTH buS. Or almost any name at all. They’ll still be cool. 

The NTH part and the specific model names are the important parts, no? I bet people know them that way as much as they know them as Subs. Or at least not calling them Subs won’t prevent potential buyers from finding NTH site, pictures in forums, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

NTH Subs are strongly associated with names of submarine ships. Submariner just means underwater, and Rolex have never associated their watches with submarines, merely with divers. Now personally I suspect this was Doc's nod to history (see what I did there? ), but "sub" is a nearly indefensible word given so many contexts. And again, I don't think Rolex expect any trademarks out of this. I don't even think they're after Kiger. I think they have some use in mind for the word Milsub and want to bust an improper trademark so it doesn't cause them problems later.

I'm not a lawyer, and I could be wrong, but if I am, I need someone to tell me why the second most succesful watch brand on the planet after Apple cares in the least about Kiger - a company I only know through this very thread but who are invisible to 99.999% of the world population.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Call them whatever if it comes to that. NTH buS. Or almost any name at all. They'll still be cool.
> 
> The NTH part and the specific model names are the important parts, no? I bet people know them that way as much as they know them as Subs. Or at least not calling them Subs won't prevent potential buyers from finding NTH site, pictures in forums, etc.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I could turn back time, I'd use a different term, something other than "Subs" for them. As it is, we've been using that term going on 5 years now. Even if people are familiar with the brand, I have to think there would be some complications arising from migrating away from that term now, as a name for the entire range of 40+ "Subs" designs.

When that guy trademarked the term "NATO Strap", I suggested people migrate to using the term "MilSpec", as it's clearly generic, has a well-known meaning, the USPTO isn't likely to grant anyone a TM on it, and it's arguably more descriptive on its face than "NATO", if the intent is to make people understand the strap was designed for tactical use.

I'm struggling to come up with an alternate term for the Subs, one which likewise is as descriptive, if not more, and yet generic enough to avoid future IP suits.

Part of the problem is that we have so many different models/versions, it's helpful to have macro-terms for grouping them together - the "Tropics", the "2K1's", the "Subs", etc.

Under the Tropics and 2K1 umbrellas there are just 2 models, the Azores/Antilles, and the Swiftsure/Thresher, respectively. If I had to, we could get by listing them all by name, rather than under their group headings. But with over 40 different Subs versions, it's not as easy to do that, without making site navigation stupidly cluttered, and confusing people.

Look at it this way - every Rolex Submariner is a Submariner, whether its dial is blue, or black, or it has a two-tone case. They all share the same dial layout and hands, so they're all Submariners. If they add a GMT hand, it's no longer a "Submariner". It's now a "GMT Master" or an "Explorer", or whatever.

Look at Tudor and the Black Bay. They had to come up with terms to differentiate the various versions, especially when they started making them in different sizes.

Or look at Omega, and the Seamasters, or Speedmasters. There are so many different branches on those family trees that people inevitably get confused, without adding more recognizable terms, which become descriptors.

As watch geeks, we all kind of "get" what a Seiko SARB is. I once counted how many SARB versions were made. I think it was around 40 at the time. Imagine if you didn't have SARB as a group heading. How would Seiko convey the understanding that all those different designs were related, part of the same grouping? Imagine no "Seiko 5", no "SKX".


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

docvail said:


> All I'm saying is that I'd like to stay off of Rolex's radar as long as I can, steer clear of them as much as I can, and no matter what I do, or don't do, or terms I use, I don't need to be dragged into another brand's legal battle with them.


Guessing - and hoping for you - that it isn't about Kiger at all, just about some ad they want to run.

BUT, you might want to trademark "sub" ASAP just for the payoff.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchcrank_tx said:


> NTH Subs are strongly associated with names of submarine ships. Submariner just means underwater, and Rolex have never associated their watches with submarines, merely with divers. Now personally I suspect this was Doc's nod to history (see what I did there? ), but "sub" is a nearly indefensible word given so many contexts. And again, I don't think Rolex expect any trademarks out of this. I don't even think they're after Kiger. I think they have some use in mind for the word Milsub and want to bust an improper trademark so it doesn't cause them problems later.
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, and I could be wrong, but if I am, I need someone to tell me why the second most succesful watch brand on the planet after Apple cares in the least about Kiger - a company I only know through this very thread but who are invisible to 99.999% of the world population.


My understanding from the WWR article is that Rolex isn't suing Kiger for TM infringement. Rather, they tried to TM the term "MilSub", but found out he beat them to it.

They're apparently arguing that Kiger shouldn't have been awarded the TM, because the term only applies to Rolex watches, specifically, as an abbreviation of "Military Submariner", and I believe they've trademarked the term "Submariner" for use with watches.

In other words, "MilSub" is short for "military-issued _ROLEX_ Submariner", and thus, they should own the TM on that term, not Kiger.

If they can prevail with that argument, then, logically, I wonder if it sets the stage for them to claim that my use of "Sub" in conjunction with watches is invalid. Because, if "MilSub" is short for military Submariner, what's "Sub" short for, in this context?

We're not simply debating semantics, I fear, but context. I don't just make "watches". I make watches inspired by military-issued diving watches of years past, including some "MilSubs" produced by Rolex, and their sister brand, Tudor.

Take the visual similarities into consideration as additional context, and they might argue that "Sub" is in fact _NOT_ generic, in this situation.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchcrank_tx said:


> Guessing - and hoping for you - that it isn't about Kiger at all, just about some ad they want to run.
> 
> BUT, you might want to trademark "sub" ASAP just for the payoff.


The US is a first-to-use, not first-to-file jurisdiction for trademarks. I can establish that I've been using the term "Sub" since 2016. There's no rush to file a registration, if I could even get it awarded.

But I'll add it to the agenda for my call with my IP attorney.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> The US is a first-to-use, not first-to-file jurisdiction for trademarks. I can establish that I've been using the term "Sub" since 2016. There's no rush to file a registration, if I could even get it awarded.
> 
> But I'll add it to the agenda for my call with my IP attorney.


Don't forget that Glycine has been selling the Combat "sub" for over 50 years and they've never been sued by Rolex either. Even if Rolex had a TM over "sub" at some point, there's an argument to be made that they failed to enforce it. Maybe they can claim they never heard of Nth using sub over the last 5 years, but I doubt they could claim they've never heard of Glycine using it over the last 54.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

This is all so interesting. So if its considered a generic and Kiger loses his trademark, it must mean that it would always be generic and no one has claim to it. Which means Rolex, Doc and whoever wants to use the term, can freely. At the least I would imagine that Kiger could sue the TM office that granted Milsub to him for at least covering his costs/damages he incurs?
Also Doc, I see the problem more if it is actually printed on your dial, not your "sub" grouping.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

HammyMan37 said:


> This is all so interesting. So if its considered a generic and Kiger loses his trademark, it must mean that it would always be generic and no one has claim to it. Which means Rolex, Doc and whoever wants to use the term, can freely. At the least I would imagine that Kiger could sue the TM office that granted Milsub to him for at least covering his costs/damages he incurs?


Most likely not. The burden is on the applicant to do their due diligence. Unlike patents, TM's are basically given out like candy and the USPTO relies on the market for enforcement. The plus side for applicants is that getting a trademark is usually several orders of magnitude cheaper than a patent, and you get to keep it indefinitely as long as you properly use and enforce it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> Don't forget that Glycine has been selling the Combat "sub" for over 50 years and they've never been sued by Rolex either. Even if Rolex had a TM over "sub" at some point, there's an argument to be made that they failed to enforce it. Maybe they can claim they never heard of Nth using sub over the last 5 years, but I doubt they could claim they've never heard of Glycine using it over the last 54.


Good point. I actually had forgotten about that, and semantically, I wonder if the combination of "COMBAT" with "SUB" is similar enough in meaning to render Rolex's argument over the term "Milsub" invalid.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> This is all so interesting. So if its considered a generic and Kiger loses his trademark, it must mean that it would always be generic and no one has claim to it. Which means Rolex, Doc and whoever wants to use the term, can freely. At the least I would imagine that Kiger could sue the TM office that granted Milsub to him for at least covering his costs/damages he incurs?
> Also Doc, I see the problem more if it is actually printed on your dial, not your "sub" grouping.


Also a good point, maybe. The word "Sub" has never appeared on the product or its packaging.

Maybe that changes the texture of this situation. I don't know.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Good point. I actually had forgotten about that, and semantically, I wonder if the combination of "COMBAT" with "SUB" is similar enough in meaning to render Rolex's argument over the term "Milsub" invalid.


Also, yes we all know "sub" is short for submariner/submersible/submarine, but _Sub_ is also Latin, is it not? Sub, meaning under or beneath. It's technically a prefix, no?

So while Submariner(Rolex) or Submersible(Panerai) can be deemed untouchable, I would feel "sub" would be free and clear.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> Most likely not. The burden is on the applicant to do their due diligence. Unlike patents, TM's are basically given out like candy and the USPTO relies on the market for enforcement. The plus side for applicants is that getting a trademark is usually several orders of magnitude cheaper than a patent, and you get to keep it indefinitely as long as you properly use and enforce it.


If you think it's easy getting a trademark in the USA, you should see how easy it is in the UK, where the authorities don't bother to look into similarities to existing marks, such as the letters N-T-H appearing within a circle.

You could easily end up infringing on someone else's mark, if you were careless, or worse, deliberately vindictive.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Also, yes we all know "sub" is short for submariner/submersible/submarine, but _Sub_ is also Latin, is it not? Sub, meaning under or beneath. It's technically a prefix, no?
> 
> So while Submariner(Rolex) or Submersible(Panerai) can be deemed untouchable, I would feel "sub" would be free and clear.


Like I've said, you may be right, and I may be needlessly concerned. But maybe my concerns are warranted, if context matters.

That's why I have an IP attorney, with whom I plan to consult about all this, as soon as I can.

He's been very helpful, with all sorts of things, including registering the NTH trademark globally, and even defending it in some places.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> That raises interesting questions, doesn't it?
> 
> I can't imagine Rolex isn't aware of Steinhart. Why hasn't Rolex gone after them?
> 
> ...


My assumption is that they do not view them as a threat or to be infringing on anything litigation worthy

They likely want "milsub" for a specific purpose, so they are trying to take it. I would not be surprised if they researched the idea of trademarking "sub" and realized it was too ambiguous and widely used, not just in the already mentioned brands but also larger companies with deeper pockets such as Invicta.

It is also very likely that it is not worth Rolex's time to go after the mentioned companies. Rolex already sells every watch they can make, and <$1k watches are not stealing any of their customers


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> If I could turn back time, I'd use a different term, something other than "Subs" for them. As it is, we've been using that term going on 5 years now. Even if people are familiar with the brand, I have to think there would be some complications arising from migrating away from that term now, as a name for the entire range of 40+ "Subs" designs.
> 
> When that guy trademarked the term "NATO Strap", I suggested people migrate to using the term "MilSpec", as it's clearly generic, has a well-known meaning, the USPTO isn't likely to grant anyone a TM on it, and it's arguably more descriptive on its face than "NATO", if the intent is to make people understand the strap was designed for tactical use.
> 
> ...


I'm with you. A group name is useful. I just meant if you had to use a different group name, it doesn't seem like the end of the world.

-Warships
-Sous (as in sous-marin. Maybe awkward to pronounce)
-Classics
-Originals (as in the line that made the brand popular, also mildly ironic since they are inspired by other watches)
-Docs

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

3WR said:


> I'm with you. A group name is useful. I just meant if you had to use a different group name, it doesn't seem like the end of the world.
> 
> -Warships
> -Sous (as in sous-marin. Maybe awkward to pronounce)
> ...


_Names them Docs, instantly sued by Doc Martens_

Lol butI'm going to go ahead and add USBs to your list. USB for Unterseeboot, the German term for submarines.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

While obviously not an expert observation, but..


If you have an overarching concept, in order to break the concept into smaller related categories, you need to sub-categorize.

Tough to sue a classification method.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> -Docs
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've got a pair of Doc's. Great boots.

Hell, just call it "The Original Fleet".


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

seatega said:


> _Names them Docs, instantly sued by Doc Martens_
> 
> Lol butI'm going to go ahead and add USBs to your list. USB for Unterseeboot, the German term for submarines.


Trademark Turtle, because Turtle was the fist submarine, and Seiko never trademarked it.  (Might need to wait and see the results of the milsub case first though.)

Not a fan of the milsub trademark, but I suspect it's very easy to bust. I'm guessing any attempt to trademark "sub" by Rolex would be easy to bust too.

I continue to think this is probably just Rolex trying to remove a trademark that's in the way of some ad campaign or history they want to publish and is half "just-in-case" and half "hey, maybe we'll get it for ourselves."


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

seatega said:


> _Names them Docs, instantly sued by Doc Martens_
> 
> Lol butI'm going to go ahead and add USBs to your list. USB for Unterseeboot, the German term for submarines.


 Beat me to it


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

You could say the sub stood for subpoena


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> You could say the sub stood for subpoena


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


>


Haha. By the way, I prefer Jimmy Stewart.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

seatega said:


> _Names them Docs, instantly sued by Doc Martens_
> 
> Lol butI'm going to go ahead and add USBs to your list. USB for Unterseeboot, the German term for submarines.


My old man was a submariner. As in the Silent Service driving around underwater all sneaky like. At one point he had a German car with UBOAT plates.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Next model will be the Huey


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> Uh-oh. That's not going to be good for anyone.
> 
> I remember when Mark told me he trademarked the term "MilSub". I honestly thought it was a genius move, and wish I could have thought of it.
> 
> ...


Reminiscent of the battle Eddie Platts had with Omega. He originally used the term "Broad Arrow" and had an arrow-type logo. Omega came down on him a manner to Rolex on Kiger. They demanded Eddie cease and desist using Broad Arrow as they had used the term. It was a long fight, Eddie lost. Some differences, of course, but the same: a big company muscling a little guy.

Also reminiscent of when Ralph Lauren tried to trademark the polo player on the horse, and demanded that the Beverly Hill Club, that had used that image on their signs and literature for decades, stop using it. Lauren lost.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Next model will be the Huey


Now that you mention "Huey", I'm reminded of all the Army helicopters named after Native American Tribes - Apache, Iroquois, Arapaho, Blackhawk, Chinook...

Just wondering when the PC police will get around to demanding they change all those names, and what they'll become.

Whatever naming convention they go with, it better sound cool. They better not name them after endangered species of waterfowl, or some other stupid bull$hlt.

Two of my 11 jumps were from helicopters - one was a Blackhawk, and the other was a Chinook. I don't think it would sound as cool if I said I jumped out of a Pink-head.*

*The Pink-headed duck is critically endangered, possibly already extinct.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> If I could turn back time, I'd use a different term, something other than "Subs" for them. As it is, we've been using that term going on 5 years now. Even if people are familiar with the brand, I have to think there would be some complications arising from migrating away from that term now, as a name for the entire range of 40+ "Subs" designs.
> 
> When that guy trademarked the term "NATO Strap", I suggested people migrate to using the term "MilSpec", as it's clearly generic, has a well-known meaning, the USPTO isn't likely to grant anyone a TM on it, and it's arguably more descriptive on its face than "NATO", if the intent is to make people understand the strap was designed for tactical use.
> 
> ...


Maybe you buy the rights to a defunct marque as Eddie Platts did, and use it somehow. just a thought, as he bought a number of his marques after his battle with Omega over the use of ":Broad Arrow," and somehow incorporate it as the NTH ---------- line.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

3WR said:


> My old man was a submariner. As in the Silent Service driving around underwater all sneaky like. At one point he had a German car with UBOAT plates.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could call them NTH Submersibles, aka NTH Sub M.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> If you think it's easy getting a trademark in the USA, you should see how easy it is in the UK, where the authorities don't bother to look into similarities to existing marks, such as the letters N-T-H appearing within a circle.
> 
> You could easily end up infringing on someone else's mark, if you were careless, or worse, deliberately vindictive.


I see what you did there.  That was a fun time in forum town.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Mr.Boots said:


> Could call them NTH Submersibles, aka NTH Sub M.


Errr... too late.... Doc will have to deal with Mr Oh over at Tissel if he tries that! 










Oh and by the way... great watch, keeps great time!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Boots said:


> Reminiscent of the battle Eddie Platts had with Omega. He originally used the term "Broad Arrow" and had an arrow-type logo. Omega came down on him a manner to Rolex on Kiger. They demanded Eddie cease and desist using Broad Arrow as they had used the term. It was a long fight, Eddie lost. Some differences, of course, but the same: a big company muscling a little guy.
> 
> Also reminiscent of when Ralph Lauren tried to trademark the polo player on the horse, and demanded that the Beverly Hill Club, that had used that image on their signs and literature for decades, stop using it. Lauren lost.


Why am I not surprised that Eddie has run afoul of other brands' IP?


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

docvail said:


> Two of my 11 jumps were from helicopters - one was a Blackhawk, and the other was a Chinook. I don't think it would sound as cool if I said I jumped out of a Pink-head.*
> 
> *The Pink-headed duck is critically endangered, possibly already extinct.


Well surely the jumpmaster reminded you to *duck* before going out the door, no?
(Get it? Get it? 🤣 )


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> Errr... too late.... Doc will have to deal with Mr Oh over at Tissel if he tries that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd worry about these guys before I worried about Tisell.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Boots said:


> Maybe you buy the rights to a defunct marque as Eddie Platts did, and use it somehow. just a thought, as he bought a number of his marques after his battle with Omega over the use of ":Broad Arrow," and somehow incorporate it as the NTH ---------- line.


I'm not keen on the idea of buying dormant trademarks, when I can invent new TM's for free.

Eddie's been involved in at least three TM disputes. Those are just the ones I know about. I'd rather chart my own course than follow his.


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

docvail said:


> Why am I not surprised that Eddie has run afoul of other brands' IP?


To be fair, Omega IMO shouldn't be able to trademark an ancient Commonwealth military mark simply because it happened to have been painted on a few watches they made which MOD used.

But nonetheless, EP has acted like a prat in many other ways, as you know only too well.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Boots said:


> Could call them NTH Submersibles, aka NTH Sub M.





Red PeeKay said:


> Errr... too late.... Doc will have to deal with Mr Oh over at Tissel if he tries that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





TheBearded said:


> I'd worry about these guys before I worried about Tisell.
> View attachment 15720002


^This.

Again, I plan to speak to an actual IP attorney about this. That's why we business owners have attorneys.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> ^This.
> 
> That's why we fancy pants owners have attorneys


Fixed


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchcrank_tx said:


> Well surely the jumpmaster reminded you to *duck* before going out the door, no?
> (Get it? Get it? ? )


Actually, no, he didn't, and wouldn't on jumps from helicopters.

When jumping from the Blackhawk, we never stood up. We were seated on the edge of the opening, feet dangling in the breeze, and just shuffled our butt cheeks over the side, once we were over the drop zone.

The bay door on a Chinook is large enough to drive a truck through it. No need to duck.

TRUE STORY THOUGH - In Airborne school, we were taught what to do in all the scenarios involving our parachute not deploying. In one of those, the pack doesn't open at all, and the paratrooper is dragged behind the airplane, still attached, like a piece of toilet paper stuck to your shoe.

In that scenario, the jumpmasters will pull you back into the plane (they promise). But under no circumstances are you to reach out for them. You're supposed to remain calm (after being slammed into the side of the plane a dozen or more times), and just let them pull you into the aircraft.

One of the jump school instructors made no bones about what would happen if you reached for him, "I'll punch you in the face."

You should have seen the ear-to-ear grin he had when he said it, too, like he was fondly remembering doing that to someone, and was looking forward to doing it again someday.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchcrank_tx said:


> To be fair, Omega IMO shouldn't be able to trademark an ancient Commonwealth military mark simply because it happened to have been painted on a few watches they made which MOD used.
> 
> But nonetheless, EP has acted like a prat in many other ways, as you know only too well.


I'm not familiar enough with the broad arrow history to have an opinion.

No comment regarding my familiarity on your second point.


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

Broad arrow - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Mediocre said:


> Next model will be the Huey


Then issues arise from either Bell or tha


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> Then issues arise from either Bell or tha


Suddenly Roger Smith's approach of the simple "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" makes sense


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Actually, no, he didn't, and wouldn't on jumps from helicopters.
> 
> When jumping from the Blackhawk, we never stood up. We were seated on the edge of the opening, feet dangling in the breeze, and just shuffled our butt cheeks over the side, once we were over the drop zone.
> 
> ...


Also true story: while enrolled in the USAF's school for wayward youths in Colorado, we weren't allowed to just take the summer off, so second year went through the Army's jump school. My first jump was from a C-141, which was supposed to have a wind blast deflector of some sort deployed outside the door to keep us from getting sucked out. The 141 crew apparently didn't think it necessary. We were supposed to "stand in the door" but we went out like spit wads through a straw. It did save the jumpmaster the effort of encouraging us to actually jump.

Subsequent jumps were from much slower stuff: C-124, C-130. Not so dramatic.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, sounds like Kiger will be leaning on the actual Mil Spec description of what was requisitioned: "*Mil*itary Specification, watch, wrist, *sub*mersible." Nothing to do with the model name Submariner.

That article over in Public, also speculates that Rolex wants the name for a Tudor heritage model.

What really pains me about something like this - as opposed to various Panerai and AP trademark or trade dress disputes, is that Kiger TMed the term, fair and square. Rolex has deep pockets. Why not just _buy_ the trademark off Kiger...?

In any case, probably anyone looking for a deal on an Amphion in the form of a legit Kiger MilSub, are probably going to be spit out of luck, now...


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> What really pains me about something like this - as opposed to various Panerai and AP trademark or trade dress disputes, is that Kiger TMed the term, fair and square.


See the issue is that's not how TMs work. It's not like a patent where first to register wins. TM registration works as presumptive right to use (along with some other helpful bundle or rights when it comes to proving damages), but what actually creates a TM is being the first to use it in the course of business, not being the first to register. So basically, on any trademark, if you can prove you used it first and never abandoned it you can defeat someone else's trademark claim, even if they registered it with the USPTO and you didn't.



mconlonx said:


> Rolex has deep pockets. Why not just _buy_ the trademark off Kiger...?


Based on the facts, there's really no reason for Rolex to buy it off Kiger, because that would probably be a losing investment. Several other heritage watch brands have watches that at some point in history were commonly referred to as MilSub. If Rolex buys the TM rights from Kiger, what's to stop Omega or Panerai from using their same argument to invalidate the TM?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

seatega said:


> See the issue is that's not how TMs work. It's not like a patent where first to register wins. TM registration works as presumptive right to use (along with some other helpful bundle or rights when it comes to proving damages), but what actually creates a TM is being the first to use it in the course of business, not being the first to register. So basically, on any trademark, if you can prove you used it first and never abandoned it you can defeat someone else's trademark claim, even if they registered it with the USPTO and you didn't.
> 
> Based on the facts, there's really no reason for Rolex to buy it off Kiger, because that would probably be a losing investment. Several other heritage watch brands have watches that at some point in history were commonly referred to as MilSub. If Rolex buys the TM rights from Kiger, what's to stop Omega or Panerai from using their same argument to invalidate the TM?


Well, let's see... According to that article:

Kiger was the first to use the term as an actual model name for a watch, available for commercial sale.
Rolex has never used the term for one of their watches, available for sale on the open market. And if they want to lean on the watch they produced to Military Specifications, they certainly let that lapse as a model name, since then.
Kiger was the first to TM it, uncontested, and it was granted. They have since used the TM to brand a line of watches which they have continuously produced since 2015, never abandoning the TM.

Turn it around, and say Rolex wins this fight - what's to keep Omega or Panerai from using the same argument to fight Rolex for the right to use the TM?


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Other possible names for NTH divers; 

SINKERS

UNDERSEA WARSHIPS 

M.I.A.C. (men in a can) 

uNder The Hydrosphere 

WHIPPETS (as in SUBmissive)

BSDM (Big Submersible Diving Machines) 

Offered at no charge and a promise not to TM any of them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> FWIW, sounds like Kiger will be leaning on the actual Mil Spec description of what was requisitioned: "*Mil*itary Specification, watch, wrist, *sub*mersible." Nothing to do with the model name Submariner.
> 
> That article over in Public, also speculates that Rolex wants the name for a Tudor heritage model.
> 
> ...





seatega said:


> See the issue is that's not how TMs work. It's not like a patent where first to register wins. TM registration works as presumptive right to use (along with some other helpful bundle or rights when it comes to proving damages), but what actually creates a TM is being the first to use it in the course of business, not being the first to register. So basically, on any trademark, if you can prove you used it first and never abandoned it you can defeat someone else's trademark claim, even if they registered it with the USPTO and you didn't.
> 
> Based on the facts, there's really no reason for Rolex to buy it off Kiger, because that would probably be a losing investment. Several other heritage watch brands have watches that at some point in history were commonly referred to as MilSub. If Rolex buys the TM rights from Kiger, what's to stop Omega or Panerai from using their same argument to invalidate the TM?


I'm scheduled to speak to my IP attorney this afternoon. I'm not planning to ask for his opinion on Kiger's case, because it's not my case.

Either way, I'm just a layman, speculating, but basing my speculation on my limited knowledge of TM law, which is based on having filed for TM protection in several countries and regions, and having to take action to defend my TM twice already...

I think a lot of this will come down to how the USPTO, and then likely the courts, view the term "Milsub".

Scenario one - If they see it as a made-up, invented term, with no prior meaning, in the same vein as "Kleenex", then I'd think the usual trademark laws would apply, and whoever can prove they were the first to use the term commercially would have the right to the TM, at least here in the USA, where the rights are with the first to use a mark, not the first to file a registration for the mark.

In that scenario, Mark would seem to be holding the upper hand, since the term "Milsub" has actually appeared on his product, alongside the Kiger name, and in almost all, if not all his business communications with the public.

But, in that scenario, no doubt Rolex will try to argue that they had prior use, even if the term didn't appear on any of their products or in any of their marketing. It seems like a spurious argument to make, but lawyers make spurious arguments all the time.

Rolex's strategy may simply be to drag Kiger into a costly legal battle, and hope he gives up before a court rules in his favor, because he can't afford to make it that far before he runs out of money.

Scenario two - If they view "Milsub" as something that is a generic term, like "tissue", or in the same vein as "Milspec", something with a well-known meaning, then they could overturn his trademark registration. But in that scenario, anyone, could use it, not just Rolex.

This is what many have hoped would happen with the "NATO" trademark registration, which most people agree should never have been awarded in the first place.

Scenario three - If they decide that "Milsub" is an abbreviation for "Military _Submariner_", and Rolex owns the rights to the "Submariner" part of that term, then they could overturn his registration, and award the rights to Rolex.

In scenario one, Rolex could certainly offer to buy the TM from Kiger, the same way Google bought the "Android" TM from Wing Liang, who just changed the name on his watches to Aragon. They have deep enough pockets.

It raises the question about how much it would cost to buy the TM, versus how much it will cost to wage a legal battle. Maybe they think he'll give up and settle out of court, and their total costs will end up being less than if they'd just bought the TM for a fair price.

It may also be that they see scenario two as a possible outcome. And as such, they wouldn't want to make any offer to buy the TM, because then they'd have to defend it from being used by others, like Omega, owned by Swatch, which also has deep pockets, deep enough to wage a legal battle, for as long as it takes.

Perhaps this is the argument they plan to make, that it's a generic term, just so they can use it in marketing, or as the name for a new model. Perhaps they're not worried about what others, like Omega, might do, since Omega is so heavily invested in the Seamaster name for their divers.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, random thoughts...

There are multiple companies using the model names "Nautilus" and "Bathyscaphe" (and "Vanguard", though that's a less obvious example), among others, like "Phantom", "Spectre", and "Barracuda".

I'm WAY out my area of expertise here, but I wonder if those names were never trademarked because none of them were invented terms. They all have prior meaning. 

If that has something to do with whether or not a mark can be registered, then I think there's a strong likelihood the Milsub case will focus, at least partly, on whether the Milsub term was invented, or had prior meaning. 

Otherwise, if that has nothing to do with it, then I just wonder why Patek hasn't trademarked "Nautilus", why Blancpain hasn't trademarked "Bathyscaphe", etc, etc, etc. If they have trademarked those terms, then why are other brands using them, and apparently getting away with it?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just made the mistake of looking at my Facebook feed. This story is all over it, because of all the watch groups I'm in. The discussions are exactly what you'd imagine they'd be. Lots of homage hate.

Times like this really make me hate people.

My first semester in college, one of my friends was an uber-fanboi of the Ford Mustang. Mentioned the Mustang a lot. Every time we saw an old Camaro, he pointed it out, and called it a Mustang rip-off. It got really old. One of my other friends ended up punching him in the mouth eventually. My only regrets are that I wasn't there to see it, and that I didn't do it first.

That's how I feel about guys who won't shut up about homages.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> Also, random thoughts...
> 
> There are multiple companies using the model names "Nautilus" and "Bathyscaphe" (and "Vanguard", though that's a less obvious example), among others, like "Phantom", "Spectre", and "Barracuda".
> 
> ...


See you're actually making a great point about TMs and what makes them super weird. The public policy that underlies trademark law is based on protecting consumers, not corporations. The idea is that by allowing companies to exclusively use TMs, you are making sure that people can rely on consistent quality in the market, and that way they can afford to spend whatever money on a namebrand without the fear of getting ripped off. So the real question is (and I think this will be instructive in the Rolex case too) when people buy a Patek Nautilus are they doing it because it says Patek or because it says Nautilus? And is someone else buying another watch that says for example: San Martin Nautilus (I don't think this actually exists but you get my point), expecting to be spending that money to be getting the same quality and value as a Patek? I strongly doubt it, and I think that Patek's lawyers feel the same way, which is why they haven't bothered.

Touching on your other post without quoting it, I definitely understand the apprehension you have as a business owner that could be potentially affected by this Rolex kerfuffle. The reality is even if we could put the likelihood of Rolex winning the entire thing as 10% or lower (again just pulling a number out of my rear end for conversations sake) that's still a 10% chance you could have to change a significant part of your business model and be potentially at risk of litigation. Even though the more and more I think about it, I can't imagine Rolex could ever prove that someone bought an Nth sub because they confused it with a Rolex sub, I also understand that just because they probably can't win against you doesn't mean you want to jump into a lawsuit with them. Legal fees aren't cheap and as much as you like your lawyer I'm willing to bet you'd rather not give him stacks of cash unless you have to.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I just made the mistake of looking at my Facebook feed. This story is all over it, because of all the watch groups I'm in. The discussions are exactly what you'd imagine they'd be. Lots of homage hate.
> 
> Times like this really make me hate people.
> 
> ...


Meh. Some people just get really insecure because anything that looks nice but isn't massively expensive threatens the prestige of their multi-thousand dollar watches. Those people wouldn't be buying your watches anyway so who cares what they think.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

On a non-Rolex and watch snob note, can anyone who owns or has owned both a seiko turtle and an Nth Devil Ray tell me how they compare size-wise on the wrist? I currently own a Seiko Save-the-Ocean turtle but I HATE the bracelet and its about as big as I can get away with diameter wise, so I was think about upgrading the bracelet when I realized it might make more sense to sell it and spend a little extra to upgrade to the Crest color Devil Ray, especially if it fits my wrist a little better.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Other possible names for NTH divers;
> 
> SINKERS
> 
> ...


Or BDSM (same words just switched), so you can whippet! Whippet good!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

For legal reasons I'm not identifying this as anything other than a wrist watch. Come at me Bro!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> On a non-Rolex and watch snob note, can anyone who owns or has owned both a seiko turtle and an Nth Devil Ray tell me how they compare size-wise on the wrist? I currently own a Seiko Save-the-Ocean turtle but I HATE the bracelet and its about as big as I can get away with diameter wise, so I was think about upgrading the bracelet when I realized it might make more sense to sell it and spend a little extra to upgrade to the Crest color Devil Ray, especially if it fits my wrist a little better.


The Turtle _IS_ bigger, and will _LOOK_ bigger, but I think the DevilRay is a bit heavier, if that's the sort of thing that bothers you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So, I wrapped up my call with my IP attorney about an hour ago.

I'm not paying him to have an opinion about the Kiger Milsub case, so I only gave him the Reader's Digest version. His response was that Rolex could (or should) get laughed out of the USPTO office, UNLESS they can show prior use of the "Milsub" term - prior to Kiger's use of it.

As for me, he basically said:

1. Shut up, Chris. Stop talking about it.

There was more, but on the advice of legal counsel, I'm not going to talk about it. We'll have to wait and see what happens.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ok, so time for a completely new topic....

How long before the sapphire case back, custom rotor NTH comes out?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Ok, so time for a completely new topic....
> 
> How long before the sapphire case back, custom rotor NTH comes out?












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I literally chuckled out loud, much appreciated!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> As for me, he basically said:
> 
> ...


I guess he doesn't charge by the hour.

Or was that stop talking about it on a public forum?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice Rolex


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

3WR said:


> Or was that *stop talking about it on a public forum*?


My bold guess.


TheBearded said:


> Nice Rolex


I believe you misspelled "Heuer Milsub." 🤣


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

3WR said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Personally this my favorite Mil(itary)Sub(way)


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

just in reading all the legal posts from the last few days, and all i got out of it was...doc is going to finally do a dressy diver line in 40mm

i'm in


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

seatega said:


> Personally this my favorite Mil(itary)Sub(way)
> View attachment 15721702


Is that PSAB in Saudi Arabia? Cause, that whole scene looks familiar


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

JLittle said:


> Is that PSAB in Saudi Arabia? Cause, that whole scene looks familiar


Nah it's Joint Base Balad. I found the photo online but my older brothers best friend (who is basically just my other older brother) was stationed there during the war in Iraq and the Subway was his slice of home away from home. Subway is a fixture in our family because of it.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Just joined the NTH fanclub. Swiftsure dropped through my letterbox yesterday. First thoughts were how light it was compared to the Sumo I had been wearing that day


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Just joined the NTH fanclub. Swiftsure dropped through my letterbox yesterday. First thoughts were how light it was compared to the Sumo I had been wearing that day
> View attachment 15722291


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

It feels like a NTH day today....


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Maybe I missed it....... but looking back through all the pages in here since I last wandered into the thread takes forever and I’d still miss it..... so is there any update on the new sub cases and when I’ll be able to order one of them? Is there a better place to wait for updates other than in this thread?

I did glance back through a handful of pages looking for an update and Doc your story about the jumpmasters in airborne school reminds me of the Marine Corps swim school instructors. Their attitude about safety and the joy they took in “enforcing” the rules was equally apparent.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Maybe I missed it....... but looking back through all the pages in here since I last wandered into the thread takes forever and I'd still miss it..... so is there any update on the new sub cases and when I'll be able to order one of them? Is there a better place to wait for updates other than in this thread?
> 
> I did glance back through a handful of pages looking for an update and Doc your story about the jumpmasters in airborne school reminds me of the Marine Corps swim school instructors. Their attitude about safety and the joy they took in "enforcing" the rules was equally apparent.


There hasn't been any update on the updated subs.

If you're subscribed to our email newsletter, and following us on FB or IG, it's impossible you won't be aware of it when we have news to announce.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> So, I wrapped up my call with my IP attorney about an hour ago.
> 
> I'm not paying him to have an opinion about the Kiger Milsub case, so I only gave him the Reader's Digest version. His response was that Rolex could (or should) get laughed out of the USPTO office, UNLESS they can show prior use of the "Milsub" term - prior to Kiger's use of it.
> 
> ...


Here's what happened: I bought one of the remaining Kigers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Here's what happened: I bought one of the remaining Kigers.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For real though - I don't know how many he has left, but anyone who wants one should get one now. They might become seriously valuable, depending on how this whole thing shakes out.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

hwa said:


> Here's what happened: I bought one of the remaining Kigers.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


where pray tell, did you find it? Or where might I find one?


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> For real though - I don't know how many he has left, but anyone who wants one should get one now. They might become seriously valuable, depending on how this whole thing shakes out.


I reached out to him but at least all the Red Ronins are gone. Looks like there's been a ton of interest in the last day or so judging by the Facebook page, this whole Rolecks thing is just free advertising for the brand


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> where pray tell, did you find it? Or where might I find one?


Email Mark at [email protected], or go through his FB page - KIGER Milsub


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

seatega said:


> I reached out to him but at least all the Red Ronins are gone. Looks like there's been a ton of interest in the last day or so judging by the Facebook page, this whole Rolecks is just free advertising for the brand


I just had a quick conversation with him and they are all gone. There are no Kiger's available and no idea when there may be more......


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

nonfatproduct said:


> I just had a quick conversation with him and they are all gone. There are no Kiger's available and no idea when there may be more......


Dang. Well if anyone on here ever wants to sell their Red Ronin, hit me up lol


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I wonder how many of the people who bought one since that story broke had never heard of Kiger before, but liked the watch enough to buy one, and how many bought it because they think they'll suddenly become super-rare collectibles. 

I guess the secondary market prices will give us some clue.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I wonder how many of the people who bought one since that story broke had never heard of Kiger before, but liked the watch enough to buy one, and how many bought it because they think they'll suddenly become super-rare collectibles.
> 
> I guess the secondary market prices will give us some clue.


I imagine it both, plus a mix of people who were on the fence and then decided to jump on one to support them in light of this whole thing. 
As for me, I had always liked them but I thought they had been sold through Nth and sold out considering they were limited edition. I never considered it further until today and then it was too late!


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

seatega said:


> I imagine it both, plus a mix of people who were on the fence and then decided to jump on one to support them in light of this whole thing.
> As for me, I had always liked them but I thought they had been sold through Nth and sold out considering they were limited edition. I never considered it further until today and then it was too late!


this is the boat I'm in. I always liked them but wasn't sure how they were sold. Plus there were other watches I was chasing and I figured there would always be another opportunity to pick up a Kiger. When I heard about the story I realized waiting probably hadn't been the best strategy.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"Limited production"

Emphasis on the "limited".


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

seatega said:


> Nah it's Joint Base Balad. I found the photo online but my older brothers best friend (who is basically just my other older brother) was stationed there during the war in Iraq and the Subway was his slice of home away from home. Subway is a fixture in our family because of it.


Yeah, Subway is a fixture on many a AF base and deployed location. I don't remember there being one in Iraq on the base I was at, but they were definitely in Qatar and PSAB in Saudi.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

I think there were like 4 left as of a month ago. 41 of 47









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> So, I wrapped up my call with my IP attorney about an hour ago.
> 
> I'm not paying him to have an opinion about the Kiger Milsub case, so I only gave him the Reader's Digest version. His response was that Rolex could (or should) get laughed out of the USPTO office, UNLESS they can show prior use of the "Milsub" term - prior to Kiger's use of it.
> 
> ...


That point 1, he just meant generally.

2. "Nod to History." You and I know. T-Effin-M

Thanks for getting all the "lawyers" to the yard, doc, reminds me why I don't practice law

Gents, freal, there are knowable facts that make most of this story a non-story.

A few watch geeks refer to Rolex Submariner-a literal ripoff of a mil-spec watch, nothing original about dial design but logo and name-as "milsub." Rolex never called it that. Never printed it on dial. Can't find the word on the website. Just unrelated geeks nicknaming it.

Kiger registers and uses before Rolex.

Now Rolex says milsub is indistinguishable from Rolex. ********. It's used routinely to refer, also, to any watch that looks plus/minus like that mil-spec dial Victor found behind some file cabinet.

Sure, Kiger could lose the mark, but that doesn't mean Rolex gets it. Rolex would have to show prior use. It can't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Re: Kiger - it is a strange feeling to have accidentally NOT missed out of a cool watch. 

Mine is 44/47 purchased late 2020. I wonder if they shipped out in order.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> "Limited production"
> 
> Emphasis on the "limited".


How many Kigers have been made, total? I think no more than 300.

Which means his max profit is something like $100K. Which will vanish in a few days of legal maneuvering against Rolex.

Now, IMO, "milsub", like "nato", should not have been a trademarkable term, since it was in common generic use for decades. Dan Fock still calls one of his OWC watches a Milsub (but doesn't put it on the dial). Back in 2014, I sent him a message telling him that Kiger was trying to trademark the term; Dan said that he didn't care.

Dan had his own run-in with trademarks: the French telecommunications company Orange sued him to stop him calling his company "Orange Watch Company". He then switched to OWC, but later went back to orangewatchcompany.com as his main web site. Not sure what the current legal situation there is.

Anyway, yet another reason (as if one was needed!) to never EVER buy a Rolex product. Since I don't actually like any of them, this is easy for me.


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## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

JLittle said:


> Is that PSAB in Saudi Arabia? Cause, that whole scene looks familiar


PSAB= Prison Style Air Base. I spent the winter of '98-'99 there. Probably the best time of the year for a visit.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

MarkND said:


> PSAB= Prison Style Air Base. I spent the winter of '98-'99 there. Probably the best time of the year for a visit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


I got there 3 weeks before 9/11...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

JLittle said:


> I got there 3 weeks before 9/11...


I retired 10 days before 9/11...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JLittle said:


> I got there 3 weeks before 9/11...





dmjonez said:


> I retired 10 days before 9/11...


I was in High School on 9/11.

How is it I'm 36 and you dudes make me feel like a toddler in two quick statements?


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## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

dmjonez said:


> I retired 10 days before 9/11...


I retired in 2003.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I was in High School on 9/11.
> 
> How is it I'm 36 and you dudes make me feel like a toddler in two quick statements?


I was nearly 27 on 9/11 and working in midtown Manhattan. I was far enough away that I could neither hear nor see it from where I was but it was a surreal experience getting back home to where I lived in NJ at the time and seeing the smoke rising from where the towers had been.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I was in High School on 9/11.
> 
> How is it I'm 36 and you dudes make me feel like a toddler in two quick statements?


The days are long and the years are short...

FWIW, I was active duty military and then moved to the National Guard and the airlines at the same time. I retired from the military in 2001. I have two more years in the airlines before I "really" retire. 
But I do have a 30 year old attorney daughter and a 27 year old Army pilot son...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I took my Command as CO of the MSC port office of NY on the weekend just before 9/11. That same weekend i got my security briefing in the Navy Intel office of the Pentagon they hit two days later.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Thought I posted this yesterday, but apparently not.

I'm not sure how many watches Kiger has had made and sold, but I think it's much less than 300. I"d be interested to know how many it was. 

Back when we started talking about what would become the Red Ronin, he told me a bit about what happened with the first couple projects he'd done. It was a bit convoluted, and I can't remember if he told me how many pieces each project involved, but I have the sense it wasn't a large number.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I served from November '94 to ~April 2000, about 5.5 years of what would have been a 7 year enlistment. My time in service was cut short when I was medically discharged.

Dave's exactly correct. The days are long, but the years are short. There were days I wasn't sure I'd be able to get through. But looking back, it doesn't feel like it was a long time. 

The only time I can remember feeling like a year was a long time was when my re-enlistment window was about to open up.

I had a year left on my first 4-year contract, and I didn't think I could make it another year in the position I was in. I was just miserable where I was. I re-enlisted for another 4 years, on the first day I was eligible, just to get out of the unit I was in right away, a year early. 

At least back then, you could re-enlist up to a year before your contract ended, and your new contract started the same day. So two 4-year contracts would really be 7 years total.

If your contract involved new training for a new job, you'd go for that training at the first available opportunity. I re-enlisted in November, and was on my way to my next unit less than 30 days later. I effectively traded 3 years of my future to make the next year or my life easier.

I have zero regrets. Sometimes, you just gotta know when you're beat, fold your hand, and get some new cards. As it turns out, 3 years turned out to be less than a year and a half, and it was pretty good duty. I also narrowly avoided the Anthrax vaccination fiasco, so all-in-all, things couldn't have worked out better for me.

Sometimes it feels like it was a long time ago. Sometimes it feels like it was yesterday. I don't miss the BS, but aside from that, it was an amazing experience, and there's a lot I miss about it, and the guys I served with.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Doc accurately predicts that pointing out the Kiger MilSub is basically an Amphion will barely move the sales needle...

Then Rolecks sues for TM, and...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Doc accurately predicts that pointing out the Kiger MilSub is basically an Amphion will barely move the sales needle...
> 
> Then Rolecks sues for TM, and...


I don't want to be too cynical.

Since we don't know everyone's motivations, I'm willing to believe that the group of people who bought a Kiger since the story broke are a combination of three groups: people who'd never heard of Kiger before that, but liked what they saw enough to buy one; people who wanted to support Kiger because screw Rolex; and opportunists who think the watches may become valuable in light of the story, and hope to flip them for a profit.

I was talking to another brand owner this week, explaining my method for deciding what to produce, how many, and when. He was asking me how I know what would sell. I tried to explain that I really don't know for certain, but with a large enough data set, I can spot patterns, and see that certain handsets sell better than others, certain dial patterns, certain bezels, etc.

I was thinking about the Amphions, among other designs, as we were talking. Also about the Red Ronin. When Mark told me he wanted to put a big Skull with crossed swords on the dial, my first thought was that would limit the appeal, and thus dampen sales. But, at the same time, we were only planning 47, and he wasn't concerned, so I didn't try to talk him out of it, as if that was even possible. Mark's very much an "all-in" sort of guy, when it comes to pursuing his vision.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Mark's very much an "all-in" sort of guy, when it comes to pursuing his vision.


...says the iconoclastic WoT-monger microbrand owner...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> ...says the iconoclastic WoT-monger microbrand owner...


Maybe I'm not that proficient at self-assessment.

Overall, I'd say I'm all-in on this business, and have been since I started. But when it comes to many of the smaller-scale decisions, at least recently, I feel like I've been hedging my bets more.

I'm not gonna lie. The last ~18 months have been harder than the previous 18. The entire industry saw a slow-down starting in mid-2019, and 2020/covid-19 only dampened market spirits more. Between early 2018 and mid-2019, decision-making was a lot easier than it's been lately.

I'd been predicting 2020 would be a watershed year, but for completely different reasons, and what I expected to see happen hasn't fully happened, at least not yet, and I think the reasons why have made the situation more painful for many brands.


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## MarkBishop (Feb 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I served from November '94 to ~April 2000, about 5.5 years of what would have been a 7 year enlistment. My time in service was cut short when I was medically discharged.


Thank you for your service!



> I have zero regrets. Sometimes, you just gotta know when you're beat, fold your hand, and get some new cards. As it turns out, 3 years turned out to be less than a year and a half, and it was pretty good duty. I also narrowly avoided the Anthrax vaccination fiasco, so all-in-all, things couldn't have worked out better for me.


So true on knowing when to start over. I think it's admirable but too simplistic to have the carry-on-NO-MATTER-WHAT attitude. Yes, it's absolutely best to be the kind of person that can endure a lot for your family, friends, country, and yourself, but when options are available and situations are bad enough, you're generally doing everyone (especially yourself) a favor if you know when to reset. I think the Serenity Prayer is so key in life and applies to this topic.
Specifically here, I'm glad the reset for you turned out to be good timing.



> Sometimes it feels like it was a long time ago. Sometimes it feels like it was yesterday. I don't miss the BS, but aside from that, it was an amazing experience, and there's a lot I miss about it, and the guys I served with.


My veteran friends over the years all have the exact same overall summary of their time in the service. It's funny, different branches, wildly different duties and situations, but all seem to wind up with this summary.

Different topic:
I'm interested in the upcoming Azores. How a watch wears is key for me. 6.5 inch, fairly flat wrists here. I've found that 36mm is great, but a tad small. 40mm is great but a tad big. 38mm is perfect. (Yeah, yeah, lug to lug. I focus a ton on lug to lug, no doubt, but, in the end, the basic measurements wind up as a pretty good gauge for me.) Thing is, I can get a very good idea on how a watch will wear and read from specs, research, and reviews. However, I can't know for sure until I wear it for a day or two. Anyone have any reports on how it wears on smaller wrists like mine? Generally, I've found straps as opposed to bracelets wear better on 40mm watches, but I hope that's not the case here, as I love the looks of the bracelet on this.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> I served from November '94 to ~April 2000, about 5.5 years of what would have been a 7 year enlistment. My time in service was cut short when I was medically discharged.
> 
> Dave's exactly correct. The days are long, but the years are short. There were days I wasn't sure I'd be able to get through. But looking back, it doesn't feel like it was a long time.
> 
> ...


I loved 20 of my 23+ years of active duty service. I enjoyed my work. I enjoyed working with almost all of the people who worked with and/or for me. I liked almost all of my bosses (though the few that I didn't were truly horrendous human beings). I enjoyed traveling (been to many great places). Even my desert deployments in retrospect weren't as bad as they could have been, especially the last one (Qatar). No regrets.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Im heading back over to the Qatari sandbox next week for a month. Retired Navy, served from 1982-2004 active and reserves. Now i take the occasional DOD Contractor gig. Fun times.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

MarkBishop said:


> Thank you for your service!
> 
> So true on knowing when to start over. I think it's admirable but too simplistic to have the carry-on-NO-MATTER-WHAT attitude. Yes, it's absolutely best to be the kind of person that can endure a lot for your family, friends, country, and yourself, but when options are available and situations are bad enough, you're generally doing everyone (especially yourself) a favor if you know when to reset. I think the Serenity Prayer is so key in life and applies to this topic.
> Specifically here, I'm glad the reset for you turned out to be good timing.
> ...


I have a 6.25 ish inch wrists and have the gen 1 Azores. It fits fine for me.
















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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Out selling Girl Scout Cookies. 4hrs straight with the Red Ronin 









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkBishop said:


> Thank you for your service!
> 
> So true on knowing when to start over. I think it's admirable but too simplistic to have the carry-on-NO-MATTER-WHAT attitude. Yes, it's absolutely best to be the kind of person that can endure a lot for your family, friends, country, and yourself, but when options are available and situations are bad enough, you're generally doing everyone (especially yourself) a favor if you know when to reset. I think the Serenity Prayer is so key in life and applies to this topic.
> Specifically here, I'm glad the reset for you turned out to be good timing.
> ...


You're welcome, though having never served in combat, I always feel a little undeserving of anyone's thanks. For me, for the most part, it was a job, just one that I couldn't quit, which sometimes sucked, but as my old friend Sgt Mack once said, "Doc, some days it's just a long way to drive for breakfast."

As for the Azores - you'll think it's huge.

On paper, the dimensions are nearly identical to the Subs' - 40mm diameter, 48mm lug-to-luck, and a reasonable ~12mm thickness. But with the internal bezel, the crystal opening is ginormous by comparison. The Subs' crystal is 29.5mm. The Tropics' is 36.5mm. Also, whereas the Subs' mid-case is pretty sleek, and gives the Subs a wrist-hugging shape, the Tropics' profile is more "pot-with-legs", making it feel taller.

They're not really big watches. But they wear bigger than the Subs, and bigger than their dimensions would suggest. I'd say more like a 42mm than a 40mm.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Out selling Girl Scout Cookies. 4hrs straight with the Red Ronin
> View attachment 15725289
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


How long have you served in the Girl Scouts, and when can you retire?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For real though...

My sons were in Cub Scouts. Two years in a row, I was the "Popcorn Colonel/Kernel" - the person responsible for running their annual popcorn sale. That's one duty I definitely do NOT miss, and was so happy when both boys decided to quit scouting.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> How long have you served in the Girl Scouts, and when can you retire?


Been in for 7 years lol. Before I did a stint in the AF. But that was another life. I can take advantage of the GovX discount lol.

When can I retire? Whenever my daughter says quit but unlikely, my wife is a lifer.

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## MarkBishop (Feb 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You're welcome, though having never served in combat, I always feel a little undeserving of anyone's thanks. For me, for the most part, it was a job, just one that I couldn't quit, which sometimes sucked, but as my old friend Sgt Mack once said, "Doc, some days it's just a long way to drive for breakfast."
> 
> As for the Azores - you'll think it's huge.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback! 
Well, I also want a brown Barracuda, but I think I'd like this more. There are a few dial styles that have smacked me upside the head like a thunderbolt over the years since I got in this hobby, and this is one of them. I'm sure I could brainstorm a few others, but off the top of my head:
1) This on the Azores
2) The Rolex Submariner
3) The typical Damasko dial with Arabics and a crosshair
4) Omega Railmaster

Also, with my eyesight on the slow decline (nothing serious), the slight uptick in size to 40mm is fine on a watch as long as it still wears OK - the slightly bigger size is welcome on the readability front. I appreciate your honesty on how this wears, but I suspect it will be fine with the 48mm lug to lug. Wearable size, but reads like a bigger disk is a good thing with me, if that's how this would work out.


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## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

docvail said:


> So, I wrapped up my call with my IP attorney about an hour ago.
> 
> 1. Shut up, Chris. Stop talking about it.
> 
> There was more, but on the advice of legal counsel, I'm not going to talk about it. We'll have to wait and see what happens.


Had to catch up to several days of posts in here and I have to say the whole discussion on the "legal stuff" has been very interesting to me. Yet another angle where this forum is just plain to FUN.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Artking3 (Mar 24, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15725318


I like the crown guards and different bezel.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> Here's a quick size comparison between the NTH Subs and the new Atticus Teleios
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey any chance you could post some comparison shots from the side? Do they wear about the same?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

BoP
















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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Hey any chance you could post some comparison shots from the side? Do they wear about the same?


I'm sure I have a side by side somewhere on my phone. Here are a couple wrist shots for now.


















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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

More crap snow and sleet today. looking at my lonely grills.. living in the cold, and snow, freezing their stainless steel asses off.. and my Skipjack saying HI.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> I'm sure I have a side by side somewhere on my phone. Here are a couple wrist shots for now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can I just say, I almost exclusively choose no date on a watch when it's an option, but the date on the Icarus is so perfectly executed that not only did I get it over the no-date, it also convinced me to get the Icarus over the Meteora, which is what I had originally gone to the site to buy.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

#lunchtimelume









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Internet and cable here got knocked out about 5 hours ago.

I'm not saying I might murder, but these people who live in my house should tread lightly.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Fingers crossed all is right in the realm in the am. With internet based TV only, the chaos here would be one for the books


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I was in High School on 9/11.
> 
> How is it I'm 36 and you dudes make me feel like a toddler in two quick statements?





TheBearded said:


> I was in High School on 9/11.
> 
> How is it I'm 36 and you dudes make me feel like a toddler in two quick statements?


I remember Elvis' first appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show. Do the math.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

RmacMD said:


> I remember Elvis' first appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show. Do the math.


Whose on the what now?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RmacMD said:


> I remember Elvis' first appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show. Do the math.


Elvis..... That's the guy who taught little Forrest Gump how to dance, right?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

RotorRonin said:


> Hey any chance you could post some comparison shots from the side? Do they wear about the same?


Here are some side by side comparisons.



















They both wear very similar, although the Teleios has the bigger dial. The case on the Sub appears slightly thinner but that may be because the bezel can take away some of the visual impact, and the lugs are shaped slightly more narrow and pointed due to the extra length.

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Elvis..... That's the guy who taught little Forrest Gump how to dance, right?


LQTM.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> #lunchtimelume
> View attachment 15727445
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Holy **** thats a sexy lume shot! I love the black border hour markers. and im wanting an NTH BoR bracelet for one of mine.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Ok NTH Family, so im not looking for a free handout or anything like that, just some off the cuff thoughts on next steps.
Not sure if i have an issue with my Amphion Vintage Gilt or not.
I have 2 NTH currently (Amphion VIntage Gilt, Skipjack)
the skipjack winds the mainspring and sets the time butter smooth.
The Amphion, when i wind the mainspring, feels like there is a lot of resistance on the stem. almost like a super tight and dry o-ring was providing resistance.
and when I set the time, there is the same resistance, and also sometimes the hands feel like they skip ahead or the stem skips and the hands stay still. its very subtle, but I have not had this with any other watches.
and since the Amphion is my favorite in my collection, i just wanted some thoughts from my fav NTH crew.
It seems to still be keeping very good time, =- a few seconds per day.
just wondering guys,
thanks.
EDIT, every thread needs pics.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

My Nacken vintage black w/date was doing the same! Mine was new in September if I recall correctly. Last week I took it to my watch guy. A tiny bit of lube on gaskets around stem and it is all better now.

When I took it out of my pocket to show him he said one word when he looked at it... "Wow!"


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

davek35 said:


> My Nacken vintage black w/date was doing the same! Mine was new in September if I recall correctly. Last week I took it to my watch guy. A tiny bit of lube on gaskets around stem and it is all better now.
> 
> When I took it out of my pocket to show him he said one word when he looked at it... "Wow!"


Thank you for the advice. Im glad it wasnt a big deal


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Mine was a pita to get in the date change position also. A little lube fixed everything. He had it 1min and no charge. Good luck!

Question for this topic...What kind of lude is used?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Ok @docvail this lunch is for you brother! The kids are all in school today so the wife and I ran over to Crust Pizza in Havertown. Time for some heavenly Detroit style pie! omg im so full and happy right now!


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok @docvail this lunch is for you brother! The kids are all in school today so the wife and I ran over to Crust Pizza in Havertown. Time for some heavenly Detroit style pie! omg im so full and happy right now!
> View attachment 15728475


Good to know Detroit style still exists and still has adherents!  Last time I was in Detroit, friends took me to a couple of pizzerias they were high on at the time. One was Neapolitan style and one was California style. I was very disappointed in my friends. 😐

(I mean, I like those styles too, but we were in freaking Detroit!)


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

watchcrank_tx said:


> Good to know Detroit style still exists and still has adherents!  Last time I was in Detroit, friends took me to a couple of pizzerias they were high on at the time. One was Neapolitan style and one was California style. I was very disappointed in my friends. 😐
> 
> (I mean, I like those styles too, but we were in freaking Detroit!)


Yeah we live in the philly area, and until a few months ago I had never even heard of Detroit style pizza. My wife told me about this place near us in the town that i grew up in, and next thing you know, I have a full blown addiction to it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

It braved Covid and left the confines of home today!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok NTH Family, so im not looking for a free handout or anything like that, just some off the cuff thoughts on next steps.
> Not sure if i have an issue with my Amphion Vintage Gilt or not.
> I have 2 NTH currently (Amphion VIntage Gilt, Skipjack)
> the skipjack winds the mainspring and sets the time butter smooth.
> ...


Dude, am I thinking of someone else? Aren't you kind of local to me? Let me get it to Dan, and he can lube your seals.

And also take a look at your watch.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Dude, am I thinking of someone else? Aren't you kind of local to me? Let me get it to Dan, and he can lube your seals.
> 
> And also take a look at your watch.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Hi Chris, yes I'm very local. Just let me know what to do. Thank you!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Hi Chris, yes I'm very local. Just let me know what to do. Thank you!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just email customer support. We'll get it sorted.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

Random pic.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I read it....and cringed


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Thrashing with the Thresher.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos mod









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Happy Birthday, Rusty!

My business wouldn't be what it is without you.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Happy Birthday, Rusty!
> 
> My business wouldn't be what it is without you.


It would be rustier?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Happy Birthday, Rusty!
> 
> My business wouldn't be what it is without you.


Happy Birthday Rusty! thanks for helping to make some of my favorite watches! here's to many more!


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

HB Rusty!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Ive said it a million times that my Amphion is my favorite NTH, but as far as a daily wear and the most legible dial go, id have to give that to the Skipper right here. I reach for this watch more than any other, and I htink its because of the super easy to read high contrast dial and hands. 
That hand stack is Awesome! 
"The Skipper"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> It would be rustier?


Nothing a little WD-40 can't fix.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

davek35 said:


> View attachment 15731777


Oh, heck yeah!

Is that vintage black? Love me some Nacken Vintage Blue. Bezel (and already having the blue) is what always gave me some pause about the black one.

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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

3WR said:


> Oh, heck yeah!
> 
> Is that vintage black? Love me some Nacken Vintage Blue. Bezel (and already having the blue) is what always gave me some pause about the black one.


Yes, Vintage black. Very happy with the look of it.
Adding a different pic that may be better for seeing the color of the bezel.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - the Nacken Vintage Black...

1. We almost didn't even make it. That was Aaron's favorite version among the first 8 Subs' designs, but when we did the pre-pre-order interest survey, it came in dead last. I only decided to push forward with it because Aaron liked it, and I try not to piss off the Scots.

2. I believe the pic above is of the v.2 bezel, which is a slightly darker gray than the v.1. Supposedly its color is meant to approximate the look of titanium. I think it tends to appear more uniformly metallic gray, whereas the v.1 had a way of looking more greenish or brownish in some lights. 

Re - the Vintage Blue...

Assuming we ever make more, ever, which isn't guaranteed, I'll likely change the dial color a bit. I may also look into what can be done to switch up the dial texture.

Re - all the 40mm Subs...

I honestly don't know for sure how many more we'll make of any version. Even with the best-selling versions, there are times where demand seems to be waning. 

With the vast majority of the 40+ versions, we've produced at least 50 or 100 pieces already, and in most case, that's probably enough. We made well over 100 of some versions, and the higher those numbers get, the more likely it seems we've reached the limit of market demand, at least for now.

Bottom line - don't assume any version of the Subs will be a "permanent" part of the line up. None of them are guaranteed a place in our store forever.

If you like one of the 18 versions currently available, you should get it before it's gone. On average, we're down to single-digit inventory on all of them, and literally one piece left on some of the ones we made a year or more ago.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Good thing I was wearing a diver today. Needed to time 15 important minutes at the drive thru!










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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Ghost410 (May 14, 2014)

Its very cool to see how far this brand has developed. Ive been a fan since the Lew & Huey days. Really loved that square Monaco inspired racing watch that never came to fruition. Its literally the reason I saved up to buy a Monaco


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

New strap day.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> New strap day.
> View attachment 15735836
> 
> View attachment 15735837


Looks ready for summer.

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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 15735230


Dang. The brown Barracuda still calls to me. 
I know, order now and get over it. 🙂


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ghost410 said:


> Its very cool to see how far this brand has developed. Ive been a fan since the Lew & Huey days. Really loved that square Monaco inspired racing watch that never came to fruition. Its literally the reason I saved up to buy a Monaco


The Legends Racer.

Rusty still has one of the 4 prototypes. Kind of wish I'd bought back one of the other three he sold.


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## Ghost410 (May 14, 2014)

docvail said:


> The Legends Racer.
> 
> Rusty still has one of the 4 prototypes. Kind of wish I'd bought back one of the other three he sold.


Yep, that's the one. Because you never sold these I had to save up and buy a Monaco to fill the void


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks Chris for posting that polar inserts were available, loving my pigment-challenged sub.









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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Thought this was a Santa Cruz at first. Would like it if case fit and price were more in line with NTH.










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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Thought this was a Santa Cruz at first. Would like it if case fit and price were more in line with NTH.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No joke. I did a double-take when they popped up in my FB feed earlier.

Are they seriously $1200? Seems like a lot of cheddar, all things considered - low beat, not-all-that-accurate (-15 to +25 s/d) 6r35 movement, only 200m WR, and...not much else.

Wait, wait, wait...it says, "Limited Edition" on the case back, because they're "only" making 6,000 pieces.

Anyone check to see if the bezel is ceramic? I bet it isn't...

I may need to raise my prices. Whaddyall think? We're only making 25-100 pieces of most designs, so they're even more limited - they're UBER-limited. Our average daily rate range is half what Seiko's is (-5 to +15 s/d). And we offer 50% more WR...

Anyone want to buy my barely-worn SBDC053? Bracelet is still in the plastic. Basically the same watch, except blue dial, different handset, and with the older 6r15 movement. I'll take $900 for it. Seems like a bargain to me. 

(Kidding - Mods, my offer was entirely insincere. I'm not trying to sell it here.)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kinesis said:


> Thanks Chris for posting that polar inserts were available, loving my pigment-challenged sub.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're welcome, Todd.

(Now I know your real name! Mmmmmmmuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaahhhhhhhaaaaaaaahhhhhhaaaaaaahhhh!)


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> The Legends Racer.
> 
> Rusty still has one of the 4 prototypes. Kind of wish I'd bought back one of the other three he sold.


I tried finding one and a (sorry to mention it) a Riccardo a few months ago lol


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Not to brag or anything...










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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I tried finding one and a (sorry to mention it) a Riccardo a few months ago lol


Why sorry? Hearing about the Riccardo doesn't bother me.


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Why sorry? Hearing about the Riccardo doesn't bother me.


But this will.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Possibly interesting observation, about the Legends...

When I talk to John Keil, my marketing guy Josh, other brand owners, and my business growth coach, John Tooher, we often talk about how to grow market awareness beyond the niche of the hard-core watch enthusiasts. Within those discussions, we talk about the difference between enthusiasts' tastes and what the more mainstream market seems to prefer.

When Rusty attended the last session of Microbrand University, he had his Legends with him. Marketing guy Josh and coach Tooher aren't hard-core enthusiasts. They both flipped for the Legends, as did one of the other guys attending the course with Rusty.

We had a group dinner we held for the course participants and instructors. I was sitting across from a guy struggling to launch his brand with a model that presented pretty good "bang for the buck", at least on paper, and seemed like it checked a lot of enthusiasts' boxes - "Swiss Made", beautifully finished, restrained design, lots of nice features for the price, etc. 

Ultimately, I felt he was struggling to launch because the design was a bit boring. It seemed like he had more passion for owning a microbrad than he did for creating the product the brand would sell, which was reflected in the promotion he was doing, which was a bit lacking, and generic.

Rather than bluntly telling him that, I showed his watch to Tooher and the other guy who flipped for the Legends, and asked which watch they'd prefer. I made sure to tell them the guy's watch was Swiss Made.

Both said the Legends. I asked which watch they'd be willing to pay more for, and they both said the Legends. I asked how much they'd be willing to pay, and they both said much more than what we actually wanted to charge for the Legends.

Neither of them asked about the movement, components, or specs of either watch. They didn't ask the price of either watch, so they didn't sit and ponder the bang for the buck. Their reactions were purely driven by desire for the design, and if they were able buy a Legends, it would have been a purely emotional purchase. 

All that said, I wanted to point out to all of them that the Legends never made it to production, and explain why.

With everything we do, I try to be as objective as possible about why it works or doesn't. With the Legends, the dial layout and case shape limited our movement choices. The widely un-loved Miyota 82xx was really the only viable option. With all the other costly features - 10 ATM WR, "windshield' curved box sapphire crystal, rally strap, curved caseback - the price needed to be $450, which seemed like a lot for a watch with a Miyota 82 series inside, especially in 2014.

We started pre-orders well under that, I think around $300 or $325. Yet even at that price, we were only able to sell about 100 of them, almost exclusively to enthusiasts, many of whom were repeat customers - brand loyalists. Even on Kickstarter, which was becoming saturated with watch projects by then, we just weren't able to get it in front of enough of the right people. 

Two years after starting sales on the Riccardo, and having since used much of the revenue from producing one model to produce the next - the Acionna, Spectre, Cerberus, and Orthos - I realized I needed to tighten up my decisions about what to produce, and how to finance production. I'd been way too optimistic and aggressive to that point. Those 100 we sold just weren't enough to rationalize the production of 300 pieces.

The Legends is the only design we worked hard to create, yet never produced beyond the 4 prototypes. It was a turning point for me, and the business. It stands out as a case study in understanding the importance of creating designs based on knowing your market, timing, rationalizing production, knowing when to walk away, etc.

I don't think it was a bad design, at all. I just think it was a bad fit for the market we were targeting, and the customer base we'd built by that time. It was over-spec'd, forcing us to make it over-priced for our market, given the movement we were using, which was the weakest link - too weak, in hindsight.

After failing to launch the Legends, we came back strong with the Phantom, then launched NTH even stronger with the 40mm Subs, both of which catered much more to enthusiasts' tastes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> But this will.
> 
> View attachment 15737816


The few times I've thought about making another chrono, movements are always the issue I bump up against.

Quartz?

Meh. Not really my game. Plenty of under $300 quartz chronos out there. I'm not in that business.

Meca-quartz?

Meh, it's still quartz, and it just isn't everyone's cup of tea. Hard to get enthusiasts to pay more than $400 for them, just because "meca".

And the only versions of that movement that have what I consider to be the "right" combination of sub-dial layout and function are the ones with sub-dials at 12 & 6 or 12, 6, & 9. The ones with sub-dials at 9 & 3 all have the pointless slaved 24 hour function at 3, and no running seconds hand, unless you add the sub-dial at 6.

It makes me want to fly to Japan just to wring the neck of whichever Seiko exec approved that plan.

Automatic?

I'm so over trying to use a Swiss movement. The only options which would seem readily available would be the v.7750 clone from Selitta, which I don't love, or something more expensive and possibly less reliable from some other Swiss manufacturer.

That just leaves the Seiko NE88 or its bi-compax NE86 sibling. They're big, thick, expensive movements, so the watch would be big, thick, and expensive. And I'll be damned if I know where to get one serviced. My guess is you'd be sending your watch to Seiko's US service center.

For warranty work, it's tricky. Their wholesale cost is high enough that I wouldn't cavalierly just replace a malfunctioning movement with a new unit, rather than paying Dan to diagnose and fix it. Repairing them could be expensive, as a result.

Why do my "friends" want me to have the sort of trouble that comes with chronos (or GMTs)? My business is in such a good place, cranking out reliable and affordable three-handers.


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

Having trouble deciding which of the Tropics I want to buy, which one is your favorite, Doc?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> Having trouble deciding which of the Tropics I want to buy, which one is your favorite, Doc?


I'm thinking about snagging a blue Azores. With only a few exceptions, my entire collection is drifting towards nothing but black and blue watches.

But I have the four protos in my case, and I seem to wear the green most often. It's the only green watch I have right now, making it the natural choice when I wear something that calls for a green dial, whereas I have plenty of blue watches, and would likely wear my Barracuda brown before the dark rum, and I don't have anything in my wardrobe which would push me towards the cointreau.

People occasionally ask me what my favorite version of some model is. There are very few I don't like, and very few I like that much more than the others. So it's a hard question for me to answer. It's like which kid is your favorite, or which dog was your favorite.

I'll likely pull the blue because I like blue. We'll see how much it gets worn, and if I end up keeping it or flipping it.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

rpm1974 said:


> Not to brag or anything...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks a little like that Mars parachute with coded message. Wonder what inspirational message you guys would have been sending back then.  ? 

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## Ghost410 (May 14, 2014)

I wonder what would happen if Doc gave another run at the legends racer under the Nth brand


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Why sorry? Hearing about the Riccardo doesn't bother me.


I recalled some of your early headaches, tis all. I'll grab one up eventually!


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> The few times I've thought about making another chrono, movements are always the issue I bump up against.
> 
> Quartz?
> 
> ...


I was just messing with you since I know your thoughts on another chronograph. You're in a good place with the designs and business. You don't need to do a chrono.

That aside, I wonder how Wing from Aragon can sell an NE88 chronograph for $450 like he's offering now. I know he likely has long standing partnerships from his Android days but that's insanely cheap with that movement.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Digital Chronograph NTH? NTH-shock... heh...

Ana-digital NTH? Intriguing, but less appealing on vintagey design language...


I doubt that chronos would fit with the NTH design language, I’m not convinced that they even make sense on diver watches(though I have a few).

If there was NTH(or a different brand up Doc’s sleeve), pilot watch design, chronos make a pinch more sense to me.

While I have little to zero interest in GMTs, they might be a complication that makes a bit more sense than chronograph on divers. Still the same issue as the auto chrono movements though.

(Aside): not many solar powered micro brands(that come to mind), wonder why?


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> I was just messing with you since I know your thoughts on another chronograph. You're in a good place with the designs and business. You don't need to do a chrono.
> 
> That aside, I wonder how Wing from Aragon can sell an NE88 chronograph for $450 like he's offering now. I know he likely has long standing partnerships from his Android days but that's insanely cheap with that movement.


Most Aragon watches sell for less than what it would cost us to produce them. I think Wing is a billionaire, and just doesn't care if Aragon actually makes a profit, or if it does, how much of one.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> The few times I've thought about making another chrono, movements are always the issue I bump up against.
> 
> Quartz?
> 
> ...


Does the Fossil group (or whatever their movement group is called) offer a bi-compax? Not pushing you to use one, just curious as I have never seen it mentioned anywhere.

I do not blame you for avoiding a chrono, especially considering the recent thread with people complaining about price. Everyone wants a slim, robust, mechanical chrono for $499. If you built one worth owning and priced it appropriately I would dread to see those threads


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Does the Fossil group (or whatever their movement group is called) offer a bi-compax? Not pushing you to use one, just curious as I have never seen it mentioned anywhere.
> 
> I do not blame you for avoiding a chrono, especially considering the recent thread with people complaining about price. Everyone wants a slim, robust, mechanical chrono for $499. If you built one worth owning and priced it appropriately I would dread to see those threads


The group is STP - Swiss Technology Production, not to be confused with SwissTech, of Switzerland and Hong Kong.

As far as I know, and last I checked, they didn't have either a chrono or a GMT.

I don't think I could make and sell an auto chrono with either a SW500 or an NE88 for less than $1000-$1200, which is more than a lot of people want to spend for "only a microbrand".


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Most Aragon watches sell for less than what it would cost us to produce them. I think Wing is a billionaire, and just doesn't care if Aragon actually makes a profit, or if it does, how much of one.


I would believe that. If it wasn't 18mm thick I would pick one up just to have a watch with the NE88 movement but I know I would never really wear it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> The group is STP - Swiss Technology Production, not to be confused with SwissTech, of Switzerland and Hong Kong.
> 
> As far as I know, and last I checked, they didn't have either a chrono or a GMT.
> 
> I don't think I could make and sell an auto chrono with either a SW500 or an NE88 for less than $1000-$1200, which is more than a lot of people want to spend for "only a microbrand".


Thanks, I never knew what STP stood for. Because of my employment background I thought it was a fuel additive brand!

I started to do the "I would buy XYZ...." then I realized you get plenty of those already and one buyer doesn't make a model work LOL


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

On a completely separate and unrelated note, I was eating cookies with the family earlier, and I realized they looked like currency...

Then I recalled doc's post about how his house may collapse into mutiny and new, mildly civilized groups if the power were out too long

Now I have decided to keep a hidden box of these to use as currency in my home in the event of a prolonged utility outage


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> On a completely separate and unrelated note, I was eating cookies with the family earlier, and I realized they looked like currency...
> 
> Then I recalled doc's post about how his house may collapse into mutiny and new, mildly civilized groups if the power were out too long
> 
> ...


I can say with complete sincerity that a cookie-based monetary system makes at least as much sense as the make-believe monetary system we somehow accept as being real.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I can say with complete sincerity that a cookie-based monetary system makes at least as much sense as the make-believe monetary system we somehow accept as being real.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


My long term avatar voted in support of this message


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> I can say with complete sincerity that a cookie-based monetary system makes at least as much sense as the make-believe monetary system we somehow accept as being real.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


The union of Keebler elves would agree and expect some respect now!


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I can say with complete sincerity that a cookie-based monetary system makes at least as much sense as the make-believe monetary system we somehow accept as being real.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


I have enough things that I worry about possibly ruining me financially, I'd rather not add my appetite to that list.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

seatega said:


> I have enough things that I worry about possibly ruining me financially, I'd rather not add my appetite to that list.


Good call. My health insurance now supports this approach as well, because my cookie consumption would drop dramatically.

Cookie Monster and Cigna, this snowball is gaining big name support quickly


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ok I can see why people like it. Ob my 6.25 inch ish wrist.






























Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ghost410 said:


> I wonder what would happen if Doc gave another run at the legends racer under the Nth brand


Probably the same thing as before.

I'm sure some of the point of my earlier post was lost in the jumble of text. For a model to be successful, a brand has to combine the right product with the right price and the right promotion. It's like a three-legged stool. You can't compensate for one leg being weak or missing by making the other two longer or stronger.

Aesthetically, I think the design was solid, but square-case watches don't sell as well as round cases. And people don't love the Miyota 82 series. Even with more market awareness of the NTH brand, or switching to a chronograph movement, I'm not sure either of those factors would be enough to rationalize producing it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Digital Chronograph NTH? NTH-shock... heh...
> 
> Ana-digital NTH? Intriguing, but less appealing on vintagey design language...
> 
> ...


NTH, at least in my mind, isn't strictly a dive-watch company.

I've had multiple chrono designs up my sleeve for a few years. Just never felt like the time or circumstances were right to produce them. Likewise, I've got some ideas for some other non-diver models Just haven't produced them yet.

I once saw some data to suggest that chronos were the most popular complication, after the date function. I think they're especially popular among non-enthusiasts, whereas I think enthusiasts would lean more towards GMT's.

The challenge I have is the same for both chronos and GMT's - movement choices are limited, and I don't love any of them.

It's a shame that enthusiasts tend to be more rigid in their thinking about watch styles. The "poor man's GMT" - just a rotating 12 hour bezel on a 3-hand watch is actually a very practical and economical solution for tracking a second time zone.

But many enthusiasts tend to see any watch with a rotating bezel as being a tool watch, unsuited to certain situations, and instead would rather have a more expensive, and arguably less practical solution.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I have no need for chronograph in my life. I was once an inveterate fan of GMT watches... now, not so much. Go figure.

If I need dual time-zone, happy enough that NTH has offered models with 12hr bezels, and replacement bezels...










To be even more honest, I'm also kinda over watches with rotating bezels in general - I have a few dive watches, and that's probably good enough. Also a few others with 12hr bezels. So at this point, much more likely to consider a standard (outstanding) 3-hand watch. Like Rusty's Atticus line. Or the new Traska Commuter model.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I have no need for chronograph in my life. I was once an inveterate fan of GMT watches... now, not so much. Go figure.
> 
> If I need dual time-zone, happy enough that NTH has offered models with 12hr bezels, and replacement bezels...
> 
> ...


It's interesting how preferences change.

I've had fleeting urges for several chronos ( hamilton intra matic, zenith elP, speedy) but realized they didn't fit my style.

GMT never caught on because I have no use for them.

I started with a fixation with fixed bezel watches. Have completely slipped and gone all diver in the rotation.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> It's interesting how preferences change.
> 
> I've had fleeting urges for several chronos ( hamilton intra matic, zenith elP, speedy) but realized they didn't fit my style.
> 
> ...


I still love how some chronos look, like the Jack Heuer anniversary edition of the Carrera. But I don't ever have a need for the complication. And they tend to be bigger, or at least thicker, which I don't love. I really don't like thinking about the future service costs on mechanical chronos.

If we're being fair, I don't need all that WR in all my watches, either. But like many, I feel like watches with high WR tend to be over-engineered, which I like, if only because it keeps me from worrying about banging them up or getting them wet.

I don't dive, but I've found timing bezels useful in all sorts of situations, like cooking or keeping track of the time I have left on a parking meter.

It's rare that I cross time zones. If and when I do, it's even more rare that I'd need to keep track of any time zone I'm not in. If I did, I'm sure I could easily get by with a 12 hour bezel. I'll never be able to make frequent enough use of a GMT function to justify its added expense.

WIS will argue that a diving watch shouldn't be worn with a suit jacket, but on the rare occasions I'd be wearing a jacket, I wouldn't be around anyone who'd notice or care, nor would I care if anyone did.

I think most of the above is true for most of us, and so our collections end up being similar.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Very true. On the occasions I have purchased complications for a purpose, it is temporary...then useless 

When I traveled internationally for work multiple times per year my GMT was a solid investment. Now I have not crossed a timezone in 18 months, and it is just an extra hand on a watch. 

When I had a child that competed in swim, a complication that helped me time was great. Now I never use a stopwatch for anything.

Then I sell....and replace with more three hand watches LOL


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> NTH, at least in my mind, isn't strictly a dive-watch company.
> 
> I've had multiple chrono designs up my sleeve for a few years. Just never felt like the time or circumstances were right to produce them. Likewise, I've got some ideas for some other non-diver models Just haven't produced them yet.


Consider my curiosity piqued. (Someday, money and mouth will meet)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> It's rare that I cross time zones. If and when I do, it's even more rare that I'd need to keep track of any time zone I'm not in. If I did, I'm sure I could easily get by with a 12 hour bezel. I'll never be able to make frequent enough use of a GMT function to justify its added expense.


I travel across time zones a fair bit often enough... although nothing in the last 8 months ...sigh... and to be honest a GMT watch is just not as functional as my phone these days. I have my Samsung set up that the moment it detects a second time zone ie. I land in the US or the like, it activates and displays two time zones on my display.

The one in which country I'm in and the other home. Automatically reverts back to a single display when I get home.

No mucking around setting hands... and what about tracking dates? Meh.. let technology do the work I say.

Rather spend the extra $$ on an appealing and unique design....

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> I still love how some chronos look, like the Jack Heuer anniversary edition of the Carrera. But I don't ever have a need for the complication. And they tend to be bigger, or at least thicker, which I don't love. I really don't like thinking about the future service costs on mechanical chronos.
> 
> If we're being fair, I don't need all that WR in all my watches, either. But like many, I feel like watches with high WR tend to be over-engineered, which I like, if only because it keeps me from worrying about banging them up or getting them wet.
> 
> ...


Timing bezels are definitely the most useful for me. Easy ability to time short increments like you mentioned with cooking, parking meters, etc.

They are also fun to fidget with when bored.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> I travel across time zones a fair bit often enough... although nothing in the last 8 months ...sigh... and to be honest a GMT watch is just not as functional as my phone these days. I have my Samsung set up that the moment it detects a second time zone ie. I land in the US or the like, it activates and displays two time zones on my display.
> 
> The one in which country I'm in and the other home. Automatically reverts back to a single display when I get home.
> 
> ...


The phone is def an easier way to tell time when moving between time zones.

With that said, it feels like a missed opportunity not getting a GMT if you are a WIS and you travel.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> I travel across time zones a fair bit often enough... although nothing in the last 8 months ...sigh... and to be honest a GMT watch is just not as functional as my phone these days. I have my Samsung set up that the moment it detects a second time zone ie. I land in the US or the like, it activates and displays two time zones on my display.
> 
> The one in which country I'm in and the other home. Automatically reverts back to a single display when I get home.
> 
> ...


I sense the dark side in you...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> NTH, at least in my mind, isn't strictly a dive-watch company.


Quoted purely for future, selfish, blackmail purposes


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> I travel across time zones a fair bit often enough... although nothing in the last 8 months ...sigh... and to be honest a GMT watch is just not as functional as my phone these days. I have my Samsung set up that the moment it detects a second time zone ie. I land in the US or the like, it activates and displays two time zones on my display.
> 
> The one in which country I'm in and the other home. Automatically reverts back to a single display when I get home.
> 
> ...


I also hate having to change my watch time every time I travel, and unfortunately I travel a lot for trials around the country. That's why I recently bought this ridiculous thing when I saw it at a once in a lifetime price.









OCW-S5000E-1A,OCW-S5000S-2A - OCEANUS - PRODUCTS - BASELWORLD 2019 - CASIO


CASIO's BASELWORLD 2019 special site PRODUCTS page. CASIO's development philosophy is 'Absolute. Evolutionary. Distinctive.'




www.casio-watches.com





It's currently stuck in the mail but I can't wait for it to arrive.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

ryan850 said:


> Timing bezels are definitely the most useful for me. Easy ability to time short increments like you mentioned with cooking, parking meters, etc.
> 
> They are also fun to fidget with when bored.


I'll agree with your agreement. Ultra practical (track minutes, track hours) and often fun to operate.

Plus they are one more thing to give different watches different personality. How well a particular bezel works, feels. How the bezel itself looks. And, of course, there are all the different flavors of inserts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

seatega said:


> I also hate having to change my watch time every time I travel, and unfortunately I travel a lot for trials around the country. That's why I recently bought this ridiculous thing when I saw it at a once in a lifetime price.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks very impressive... and expensive  will be interested to see what you think when it's in hand.

Then again, I reckon Doc should take a leaf out of Casio's book and incorporate some of their impressive jargon... "high density technology", "blue sputtering technique" and really...Rusty should be referred to henceforth as the Nth artisan in residence..... and what about.."Gradations on the reverse side due to vaporisation" ...I mean WTF does that even mean?

Ya gotta get summa dat onya ya website Doc... it's all good stuff!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I still have a Casio OCW600TDA-2AV Oceanus Wave Captor Atomic Solar World Time all titanium blue dial watch. Highly accurate still, i bought it in 2007. It sits on a window ledge at home to stay charged and auto adjusts periodically when it sets itself to the world time.

PITA to set time, daylight savings, let alone a second "world time"! The newer 5000 model with a smart phone app would be pretty convenient but just goes to show how inconvenient this type of watch is in that it needs cell phone technology to access it.

I do travel quite a bit, currently actually im overseas now on an assignment for a number of weeks and i like to keep track of the home time so a simple gmt watch suits that purpose.

I have a few gmt's in my collection but i really like my Christopher Ward C-65 Trident GMT. Standard easy to use Sellita 330 movement. 150 meters with a push in crown.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I still have a Casio OCW600TDA-2AV Oceanus Wave Captor Atomic Solar World Time all titanium blue dial watch. Highly accurate still, i bought it in 2007. It sits on a window ledge at home to stay charged and auto adjusts periodically when it sets itself to the world time.
> 
> PITA to set time, daylight savings, let alone a second "world time"! The newer 5000 model with a smart phone app would be pretty convenient but just goes to show how inconvenient this type of watch is in that it needs cell phone technology to access it.
> 
> ...


A push in crown??? With only 150m WR???

What happens if you sweat? Aren't you afraid of moisture getting inside?

(/sarcasm)


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

"Gradations on the reverse side due to vaporisation" , THAT'S what keeps the sweat out, has to, no doubt, positive, certainly, absoeffenlutely.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> A push in crown??? With only 150m WR???
> 
> What happens if you sweat? Aren't you afraid of moisture getting inside?
> 
> (/sarcasm)


I only sweat pulling it out, not pushing it in.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Fine watch, fine cigar.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> A push in crown??? With only 150m WR???
> 
> What happens if you sweat? Aren't you afraid of moisture getting inside?
> 
> (/sarcasm)


I lol'd


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> That looks very impressive... and expensive  will be interested to see what you think when it's in hand.


Got it today, wore it most of the day and so far I am very impressed! With that said, I'm still convinced that most of the tech jargon is just to play into the Baselworld crowds snobbery. As to the cost, I really did get it at a fantastic price: it basically cost me what I had earmarked to spend on the Kiger/Nth Red Ronin before it turned out that they were sold out.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

First time ordering from Serious.
Nice to receive gifts...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RE - the Casio Oceanus...

@X2-Elijah did a nice review post on one a year or so ago, in which he essentially made the point that it's like a poor man's Grand Seiko. I thought he made a persuasive argument, given the way the pics showed the high level finishing on the complex case shape, as well as the other high-quality details seen under the macro lens, and the bargain-bin price (compared to a GS).

As far as the wiz-bang features go...Watch Gauge sells Casio G-Shocks. I'm not into them, but there's one that interested me, the "G-Steel" GSTB100XA-1A, just based on looks - it looks a little like the Royal Oak. Keil has one, and told me about all its functions, like geo-location, and the bluetooth connectivity. It sounded pretty impressive, but also a bit dizzying.

Someone needs to tell Casio to relax, it's enough already.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> First time ordering from Serious.
> Nice to receive gifts...
> View attachment 15743254
> 
> View attachment 15743255


Always nice to see people appreciate the nice little details our retail partners add to the experience. I've forwarded a link to your post onto Kaj.

Thanks for your purchase. Hope you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

3-1-1 said:


> First time ordering from Serious.
> Nice to receive gifts...
> View attachment 15743254
> 
> View attachment 15743255


Holy crap, that's a sweet iteration of the Scorpene!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> RE - the Casio Oceanus...
> 
> @X2-Elijah did a nice review post on one a year or so ago, in which he essentially made the point that it's like a poor man's Grand Seiko. I thought he made a persuasive argument, given the way the pics showed the high level finishing on the complex case shape, as well as the other high-quality details seen under the macro lens, and the bargain-bin price (compared to a GS).
> 
> ...


Seiko makes the Astron which is also a solar charging satellite signal watch that is a worthy contender to the Top of the line Casio Oceanus.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Holy crap, that's a sweet iteration of the Scorpene!


One of only five in existence.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

3-1-1 said:


> First time ordering from Serious.
> Nice to receive gifts...
> View attachment 15743254
> 
> View attachment 15743255


That looks amazing; would love to see a lume shot. Wish I wasn't so weird about having a date complication on my watches, as that's a mean machine for sure!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Seiko makes the Astron which is also a solar charging satellite signal watch that is a worthy contender to the Top of the line Casio Oceanus.


Never took note of them, but I'll take your word on it.

I don't need any of the functions, so I'd never buy the G-Shock or the Astron, and wouldn't be shopping for one. I only know about the G-Shock's functions because I liked the look of it when I saw it on Keil's site, and asked him about it.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Bloom said:


> That looks amazing; would love to see a lume shot. Wish I wasn't so weird about having a date complication on my watches, as that's a mean machine for sure!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dude abides...
Quick dip underneath the desk and BOOM!


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

3-1-1 said:


> Dude abides...
> Quick dip underneath the desk and BOOM!
> View attachment 15743657


Hell yes, that is badass!! I'm betting the dial will be readable all night because of the black hands and indices. Wow.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> Dude abides...
> Quick dip underneath the desk and BOOM!
> View attachment 15743657


Jeez the full dial lume is fantastic. Just another reason I'm mad I didn't get into Nth earlier when the Santa Fe's were available!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Did someone say full lume dial?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Quick dip underneath the desk and BOOM!


Sooooo many hilarious directions we could take that, but I'm not touching any of them...


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> The group is STP - Swiss Technology Production, not to be confused with SwissTech, of Switzerland and Hong Kong.
> 
> As far as I know, and last I checked, they didn't have either a chrono or a GMT.
> 
> I don't think I could make and sell an auto chrono with either a SW500 or an NE88 for less than $1000-$1200, which is more than a lot of people want to spend for "only a microbrand".


Lorier and Baltic are using a Soprod C125 GMT movement. Would that be an option for you?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> Lorier and Baltic are using a Soprod C125 GMT movement. Would that be an option for you?


If I wanted to make a GMT, yes.

But, A) I don't really want to make a GMT, and B) Soprod movements really aren't an option right now, generally, for other reasons.

I like thin cases. I'm pretty sure Soprod recently came out with a drop-in replacement for the ETA 2824-2, with the same thickness. That's their new "entry-level" movement, but it's too thick to fit into our existing case designs, and I wouldn't use it anyway, since I think the Miyota 9 series offers better performance-for-the-price.

To get a Soprod as thin as the Miyota we've designed our cases to house, we'd need to step up to the M100, which is a drop-in replacement for the thinner ETA 2892-2, and....a lot more money.

Just using one of Soprod's 3-hand M100 movements would add $300-$400 to the retail price of the watch. Assuming the C125 would also fit (or that we could make it fit), I'm guessing it would add even more.

That's without changing anything else - $300-$400 more to the price, at least. No expansion clasp, no "Swiss Made", no fancy doo-dads. Nothing else is changed.

Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if I wanted to charge $1000-$1100 for an NTH Sub, because "it's got a Soprod in it". You know what people would say, right?

"That's way too much for some no-name microbrand using Chinese-made parts. I can get an Oris for that."

No thanks. I'll stick to my reliable _and affordable_ Japanese movements for now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Where are my post-Brexit UK homies at?

This just went live today - NTH Watches - Shop By Brand - Watches


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> If I wanted to make a GMT, yes.
> 
> But, A) I don't really want to make a GMT, and B) Soprod movements really aren't an option right now, generally, for other reasons.
> 
> ...


On the question of movements, would you ever make a DevilRay with a Miyota 9 series instead of the NH35/38? I like the sweep of the Miyota better but it's not like the NH is turning me off from the DevilRay, this is really just a question for curiosity's sake.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> On the question of movements, would you ever make a DevilRay with a Miyota 9 series instead of the NH35/38? I like the sweep of the Miyota better but it's not like the NH is turning me off from the DevilRay, this is really just a question for curiosity's sake.


The Seiko movement is the most often-heard among very few complaints we've gotten about the v.2 DevilRay.

We already had the case designed for the STP1-11, which is a drop in replacement for the ETA 2824-2, thus, thicker than the Miyota. The Seiko's dimensions aren't identical, but they were close enough that we could use it without having to re-design the case from scratch.

Yes, I know, someone will say we could have just used a thicker movement spacer, but I say bollocks to that. We also would have had to relocate the crown, moving it too far up on the case profile. I wouldn't have liked it there. The difference in crown stem heights with the NH35 was minimal.

Plus, I'm sort of a perfectionist about some things. If we're going to use a thinner movement, I say, make the damned case thinner, as thin as it can be.

And, lastly, I wanted to have a model priced lower than the NTH Subs, to be our "entry-level" offering for those who like the brand, but aren't yet able to step up to the Subs range, which is really our bread-and-butter. If we made the DevilRay with the Miyota, it would cost what the 2K1's do, give or take.

For me, I honestly don't notice the difference in beat rate, nor do I ever catch myself thinking, "I really wish this had a Miyota in it, rather than a lowly Seiko NH35".

People don't realize how criminally under-rated those NH3X movements are. They're as close to indestructible as a movement gets, reliable as the day is long, and with a little bit of regulation, we've been able to get absurdly good accuracy from them. Those movements have no business being as good as they are for as cheap as they are, but they really are just that good.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Made for natural light, no filters needed


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

A lume fight broke out when I got home this evening....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> A lume fight broke out when I got home this evening....
> View attachment 15744441
> 
> View attachment 15744443


Are the other three okay?

Nothing worse than some hurt feelings, I hope...


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> A lume fight broke out when I got home this evening....
> View attachment 15744441
> 
> View attachment 15744443


You could argue the dials are close between the three on the right, but the lumed bezel is really a game changer.

I like Zelos a lot, but blue light is never going to catch the eye like green or yellow.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So speaking of 1 of 5...


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> Where are my post-Brexit UK homies at?
> 
> This just went live today - NTH Watches - Shop By Brand - Watches


I hate being "that guy", but...

I am not based in the UK but am from there. I often purchase from UK-based sellers to ship internationally to my location (often because things aren't available where I am). I always like to see new UK options appear.

Watchgecko, though...I used to buy from them (and was happy with the quality of their products, to be fair), but they lost me as a customer when they started refusing to deduct VAT for international purchases. Not such a big deal on straps, maybe, but a huge 20% difference when buying watches (on which I then pay import duties).

Granted, it's probably a rather niche problem, so to end on a positive note, it is great to see the NTH brand expanding and adding retailers in new countries. Well done and good luck!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Baldrick said:


> I hate being "that guy", but...
> 
> I am not based in the UK but am from there. I often purchase from UK-based sellers to ship internationally to my location (often because things aren't available where I am). I always like to see new UK options appear.
> 
> ...


With the current post-Brexit situation, my biggest concern was selling to customers in the UK, not a retailer in the UK selling to customers outside the UK.

The UK's HMRS is out of their collective minds.

It's bad enough that UK customers now have to pay VAT on imports from the EU, whereas before, the VAT was included in the price. The bigger issue is that there's a price threshold, ￡135, above which, the seller, presumably someone OUTSIDE the UK (like me) would NOT have to charge VAT, but under which, HMRS expects the seller to register with HMRS, collect the VAT, and remit that to them (the HMRS).

In other words, if I sell a watch to someone in the UK, paying the taxes is on them, upon import. But if I sell anything below about $189, I have to collect the tax, somehow, and not only send that money to the HMRS, I assume I'll also have to provide some accounting of my sales to them.

I'm not even sure that's "legal", in the sense that I'm a US citizen, located in the US, where I'd have thought that the UK would have no authority over me or my business. By what authority does the HMRS tell me I have to register with foreign country's tax collection service, collect taxes from the citizens of that country, and remit those taxes to them?

GTFOH. The HRMS seems to have forgotten we fought a war over the whole notion of taxation without representation. I think that was over a 3% tax on booze. They don't want to get us riled up with 20% tax on our sales.

We wanted to bring a UK retailer on board in order to support our UK customers. Watch Gecko will be focusing on UK sales. If you're outside the UK, there are other alternatives. My website, Watch Gauge's and the WatchDrobe do not charge VAT or any additional taxes (mine will add state sales tax if you're in PA, Watch Gauge does if you're in NY). Serious Watches will remove the VAT if you're outside the EU. I know Five:45 in New Zealand will remove the GST if you email them before checkout.

Not meaning to discount what you're saying, but from my standpoint, it is and should be a non-issue. The only conceivable time it might become an issue is if someone outside the UK is trying to buy something, and the only place it's available is in the UK.

But, I mean, c'mon, seriously - we're talking about the last few pieces of something we likely produced 6 or more months prior to that. I can't help it if someone waited until the only pieces left are in the UK. Go find it on Watch Recon, or eBay.

Well, maybe not eBay, or at least not from a seller on eBay who's adding the VAT to their sales price, because that might somehow reflect poorly on me and my brand. Don't ask me to explain it. I can't.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> It's bad enough that UK customers now have to pay VAT on imports from the EU, whereas before, the VAT was included in the price. The bigger issue is that there's a price threshold, ￡ 135, above which, the seller, presumably someone OUTSIDE the UK (like me) would NOT have to charge VAT, but under which, HMRS expects the seller to register with HMRS, collect the VAT, and remit that to them (the HMRS).


I'm not usually one to complain about overly complex inane government policy, as I make a pretty good living thanks to overly complex inane government policy, but the new rules relating to Post-Brexit importing seem like they were created with absolutely no foresight and will only serve to discourage any small to midsize companies from doing business there. That's bad for consumers, and it's bad for their economy long-term.



docvail said:


> I'm not even sure that's "legal", in the sense that I'm a US citizen, located in the US, where I'd have thought that the UK would have no authority over me or my business. By what authority does the HMRS tell me I have to register with foreign country's tax collection service, collect taxes from the citizens of that country, and remit those taxes to them?


I'm not an international law expert, but I'm 99% sure that they can't really do anything to you if you choose not to comply other than barring you from selling your watches there and sending you a tax bill that you could just not pay as long as you're okay with never setting foot in the U.K. again.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> With the current post-Brexit situation, my biggest concern was selling to customers in the UK, not a retailer in the UK selling to customers outside the UK.
> 
> The UK's HMRS is out of their collective minds.
> 
> ...


Yeah, like I say, it's a niche problem (and makes little to no difference to those based in the UK, who are also now fortunate enough to have a local seller).

I also nearly added in my first post that it's not really a "problem" at all, as there are other retailers globally.

Anyway, like I say, it's a good development for UK buyers and for NTH!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

@docvail 
Is the Antilles Cointreau going to be available in a date variant? I saw the other 3 tropic variants showing they will be but couldn't find info specifying if the Cointreau variant would be. Apologies in advance if you'll be answering a previously answered question.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

got some new "very fine" and "ultra fine" scotch brits pads (maroon and grey) and cleaned up the bracelet of my beloved Amphion this morning.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Congrats on the new relationship with WatchGecko. I'm a fan. Happen to have some of their swag from past orders on my desk:








Half decent, fat little pens with LEDs in the tips. Use them quite a bit actually. I can't afford actual nice pens. I spend most of my play money on watches. The rest I just waste.?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> With the current post-Brexit situation, my biggest concern was selling to customers in the UK, not a retailer in the UK selling to customers outside the UK.
> 
> The UK's HMRS is out of their collective minds.
> 
> ...


Yeah...that last part. Big eye roll.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> @docvail
> Is the Antilles Cointreau going to be available in a date variant? I saw the other 3 tropic variants showing they will be but couldn't find info specifying if the Cointreau variant would be. Apologies in advance if you'll be answering a previously answered question.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


No date only.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In case you missed the news yesterday - Introducing Watch Gecko - Our Newest Retail Partner


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

3-1-1 said:


> A lume fight broke out when I got home this evening....
> View attachment 15744441
> 
> View attachment 15744443


Wow. The Zelos is rad as F. I didn't know anybody had done a blue lume dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Wow. The Zelos is rad as F. I didn't know anybody had done a blue lume dial.


Dude, what?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif with a new addition.









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Tgif with a new addition.
> View attachment 15747795
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Bezel swap happens in 3...2...

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Bezel swap happens in 3...2...
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Not 100% sure but you're correct. Lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> Tgif with a new addition.
> View attachment 15747795
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Every tim e i see the Tikuna, I love it more and more!


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

What are everyone's thoughts about the new Azores in blue?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chatoboy said:


> What are everyone's thoughts about the new Azores in blue?
> View attachment 15748365


I'm planning to get one.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Every tim e i see the Tikuna, I love it more and more!


Only 2 left in the world, 1 no-date, 1 with-date. Both at Serious Watches.

I seriously doubt we'll make more.

Just sayin'...


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Chatoboy said:


> What are everyone's thoughts about the new Azores in blue?
> View attachment 15748365


digging it, big time. Probably my favourite of the bunch, but also maybe the most predictable, between the orange-y / brown-y shades and the green. I have to see if I'll get one though - I want to get rid of a few pieces I am just not wearing enough, that are too similar in some way or another one.. perhaps (shocker) even one of the NTHs I have (the Catalina has gotten the least amount of wrist love recently, so it might end up on the block, along with a Nighthawk, and a ground up build of an SKX that I can sell for parts). Plus, I have a feeling that I will want to get one of the new 40mm subs when they get released, so yea.. lot's of ifs and buts..

Just about the watch though.. It doesn't come out in the render, but in the pic above it looks like a dual gradient sunburst grain dial.. a convoluted way of saying - it's stunning! I can't recall if the bracelet tapers, personally doesnt bother me much one way or another, but with the smallish links and what looks like a little bit of flex it appears comfortable!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just in case it hasn't dawned on anyone - since we're planning to make the next round of 40mm Subs with the v.2 case, the remaining v.1 Subs inventory is very likely to be the last there ever will be, at least with the v.1, no crown guards case.

So...one more time...

Last Vanguard on the planet - a no-date, at Serious - NTH Vanguard No Date

Last Scorpène Nomad with date on the planet - 인투와치. Intowatch also has the last of the no-dates.

Last Bahia no-date on the planet - 인투와치. They also have the last 2 with-dates.

Last Näcken Vintage Black with Date on the planet - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nthnackenvintagewdate?_pos=18&_sid=07131a667&_ss=r

Last Oberon II with date on the planet - https://www.seriouswatches.eu/collections/nth/products/nth-oberon-ii-date. Serious also has 2 of the last 3 no-dates left.

Last Oberon II no-date in the USA - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nth-oberon-ii-no-date

Last Tikuna no-date on the planet - https://www.seriouswatches.eu/collections/nth/products/nth-tikuna-no-date

Last Tikuna with-date on the planet - https://www.seriouswatches.eu/collections/nth/products/nth-tikuna-date

Last DevilRay, White, with date on the planet - https://www.watchgecko.com/nth-devil-ray-diver-watch-with-white-dial. Watch Gecko also has one of the last 2 DevilRay Black, no-date on the planet. The other is at IntoWatch in S. Korea.

Last DevilRay, White, no-date, in the USA - literally just received by Watch Gauge, today, after I decided I didn't want to keep it. Never worn, not even unwrapped. It's not even up on his website yet. Email John, _NOW_ if you want it - [email protected].

Last Barracuda Polar White, no-date on the planet (until we make more, which we might do) - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nth-barracudawhitendate?_pos=11&_sid=07131a667&_ss=r

Last Näcken - Modern Black, No Date left in the USA - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nacken-modern-black-no-date. Email John at Watch Gauge if you want him to swap the bracelet for the oyster. There's only one other no-date left in the world, in New Zealand, at Five:45.

Last Näcken - Modern Black, With Date in the USA - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nacken-modern-black-with-date. Ditto above, about the bracelet.

Last 3 Barracuda Vintage Black, No Date, with stainless case - 1 at Serious Watches (email them if you want the bracelet swapped). 2 at the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong (no added tax) - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/sub-barracuda-vintageblack

Last Barracuda Vintage Black, with date, in the USA - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-vintage-gilt-w-date-1

I'm tracking inventory for 66 different SKUs spread out across the planet. On average, there are less than 6 pieces left for each of them. For 50 of those SKUs, it's single-digits.

Don't be that guy who waits until we're sold out of something, then asks when we'll make more. Nobody likes that guy.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Tropics bracelet does taper, from 20mm to 18mm at the clasp.

PS - and it is a dual gradient - one inside the circle, one outside. The texture inside the circle is sort of a radiant "wood grain", like the one we're using for the Antilles, but radiating outward from the center, rather than horizontal, the way it is on the Antilles. It's rougher than the typical sunburst texture. 

The outer dial texture is like denim. It's bananas, in my humble opinion.

The applied markers were hard to figure out. Our supplier had never done an applied marker, filled with lume, with any sort of insert, like the numbers we have. It took them a couple attempts to get it right (the way I wanted it).

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Baldrick said:


> I hate being "that guy", but...
> 
> I am not based in the UK but am from there. I often purchase from UK-based sellers to ship internationally to my location (often because things aren't available where I am). I always like to see new UK options appear.
> 
> ...


I'm a WatchGecko employee, and just to add to what Chris has already said on this topic:

Obviously as the UK distributor for NTH, the UK is our target market. Being the only place people can get a new NTH in the UK, we want domestic customers first, and the other NTH retailers to cover their areas.

That said with Brexit happening this comment and others on social media prompted me to highlight that we offer delivery duty paid to the EU on our orders. So despite Brexit, EU customers shouldn't have to pay VAT on any of our items.

I see that your location says the UAE Baldrick, so I understand this is irrelevant to you. However, I just wanted to mention that not specifically in relation to our retailing of NTH watches, but just so that people don't have any misconceptions about ordering from us now that Brexit has happened!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Someone grab those Bahias. They're great. I'm wearing mine today. Can't capture the magic with my phone. So maybe squint a little.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> Only 2 left in the world, 1 no-date, 1 with-date. Both at Serious Watches.
> 
> I seriously doubt we'll make more.
> 
> Just sayin'...


Put a Tikuna dial in a 2K1 case and take my money!


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Metallman said:


> Put a Tikuna dial in a 2K1 case and take my money!


This and add a BOR bracelet with a ratcheting divers extension clasp... and you'll take my money... again! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Change THIS and add THAT and THEN I'll buy one!
Been saying this for years. Doesn't work.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Avo said:


> Change THIS and add THAT and THEN I'll buy one!
> Been saying this for years. Doesn't work.


Err... then again, the Doc did fold and produce the bigger 2K1 series..

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Andrei Mihaila (Feb 24, 2016)

So you are making an Azores again? Will it be a black version? I'm sorry, i'm new here...


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

Andrei Mihaila said:


> So you are making an Azores again? Will it be a black version? I'm sorry, i'm new here...











The v.2 Tropics - A Deeper Dive


A different sort of diver. Compressor-Case Inspired The original NTH Tropics were inspired by the compressor case diving watches which proliferated from the late '50s to mid '70s - marvels of engineering which established an iconic design language. The Super Compressor watch case was patented in...




nthwatches.com


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> The group is STP - Swiss Technology Production, not to be confused with SwissTech, of Switzerland and Hong Kong.
> 
> As far as I know, and last I checked, they didn't have either a chrono or a GMT.
> 
> I don't think I could make and sell an auto chrono with either a SW500 or an NE88 for less than $1000-$1200, which is more than a lot of people want to spend for "only a microbrand".


The average fossil chrono are seiko quartz

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Andrei Mihaila (Feb 24, 2016)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> The v.2 Tropics - A Deeper Dive
> 
> 
> A different sort of diver. Compressor-Case Inspired The original NTH Tropics were inspired by the compressor case diving watches which proliferated from the late '50s to mid '70s - marvels of engineering which established an iconic design language. The Super Compressor watch case was patented in...
> ...


I fell in love with the original Azores, but I found out about it too late. After that I started to look for alternatives and right now I was putting money aside for a Longines Legend Diver. These Azores are so damn sexy, but why not a black version? 
Although that green is killing me....


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

2k1
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> 2k1
> View attachment 15753671
> View attachment 15753672
> 
> ...


Man seeing all these Swiftsures on here and on Facebook is giving me serious fomo for the watch.


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## Mr.C (Jan 23, 2021)

Not very familiar with the brand, but saw a Tikuna recently and it’s on my short list for possible 2021 purchases


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mr.C said:


> Not very familiar with the brand, but saw a Tikuna recently and it's on my short list for possible 2021 purchases


There was a post that doc that indicated current inventory of the current available lines. I want to say he said every one was in the single digits. But if you are OK with secondhand, there is that option. I waited for one and took a while lol.

And the new subs are slated with an updated design like the 2k1 line. So I recommend buying sooner than later.









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.C said:


> Not very familiar with the brand, but saw a Tikuna recently and it's on my short list for possible 2021 purchases


What Jim said - Tikuna inventory is very low, just 2-3 pieces left in the world, at Serious Watches in the EU.









Zoeken: 2 resultaten gevonden voor 'Tikuna'


SeriousWatches is officieel dealer van onder andere BOLDR, Edox, Formex, Junghans, Le Jour, Maurice Lacroix, Movado, Nethuns, NTH, OceanX, Orient, Orient Star, Raymond Weil, Roamer, Spinnaker en Zelos.




www.seriouswatches.eu





They'll remove the VAT from the price if you're outside the EU, and I think they ship free.

If you're lucky, the package might even include a stroopwaffel.


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## Clazzarino (Jun 19, 2020)

This came in the post today. Big thankyou to Watch Gecko they are authorized retailers for the UK offering 10% discount on this line at the moment. This is my first NTH probably not my last , Nàcken Renegade Tudor homage digging the fume dial ? Really plays with the light, wasn't sure from website images if it was for me ?? Really looking forward to warmer weather ,great summer vibe watch ??.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Great Naken photos, looking carefully and it's hard to believe it's the same watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Andrei Mihaila said:


> I fell in love with the original Azores, but I found out about it too late. After that I started to look for alternatives and right now I was putting money aside for a Longines Legend Diver. These Azores are so damn sexy, but why not a black version?
> Although that green is killing me....


Sorry, my friend, I overlooked your post.

Why not a black version?

The Azores dial has two color fades, both going to black. Doing a color-fade somewhat requires there be a color, and black is the absence of color. When we've tried to do designs which are "black" but also color-faded, they end up just looking gray.

Black and white are particularly difficult colors to work with when we add an underlying dial texture, like a sunburst, or the grainy texture we have on the Azores. The dial texture will end up being almost impossible to make out, or it'll make the black look like dark gray, and white look like silver.

We're limited in how many different versions we can produce of any new design. I frequently have to choose the ones I think will sell the best, and not produce any others. In this instance, we only had 4 designs to start, and there was never a fully black dial among them. I wouldn't know how to make a black dial with the current version of the Azores design.

I'd suggest looking for a used Azores on the secondary market. They sometimes come up for sale. I'd offer to sell you mine, but I sold it already, a few months ago.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Clazzarino said:


> This came in the post today. Big thankyou to Watch Gecko they are authorized retailers for the UK offering 10% discount on this line at the moment. This is my first NTH probably not my last , Nàcken Renegade Tudor homage digging the fume dial ? Really plays with the light, wasn't sure from website images if it was for me ?? Really looking forward to warmer weather ,great summer vibe watch ??.
> 
> View attachment 15755963
> View attachment 15755966
> ...


Glad you like it. The Renegade's dial is one that really needs to be seen in person to appreciate. I've seen very few photos that do it justice. It almost always ends up looking washed out or muted in some way.

I think these are pretty good:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I really can't stress this enough...










Please, for the love of God, if you modify your watch, by doing anything more than swapping the bezel, don't sell it. You modded it, you keep it, and wear it the way it is.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I really can't stress this enough...
> 
> View attachment 15756826
> 
> ...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Every time I look at this Gilt Relif dial, it makes me happy. This truly is my favorite watch in my collection.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I really can't stress this enough...
> 
> View attachment 15756826
> 
> ...


So let me make sure I understand....

I filled mine with avocado oil to give it a vintage hydrolyzed look. You are saying I should sell it?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Mediocre said:


> So let me make sure I understand....
> 
> I filled mine with avocado oil to give it a vintage hydrolyzed look. You are saying I should sell it?


He is saying to send it to @docvail every 3,000 miles for an oil change. preventative maintenance goes a long way! plus he like to make Guac out of the old Avocado oil he changes out of the case, give it that vintage flavor he likes so much.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You guys have no idea. I spent about 3 hours over the last two days, trying to get to the bottom of a support request on a heavily modified watch, which had gone through at least 4 different owners' hands since it was first sold, and 3 since it was modified.

It's one thing when the modification makes it clear whether or not the warranty is voided, or if it even applies, but when it becomes a gray area, and the original date of sale is unknown, it requires some sleuthing. 

If the watch was sold with a clear disclaimer that the warranty probably wouldn't apply and the buyer probably won't be able to reverse the modification, that would be one thing. But I've seen a few situations where someone thought they were getting a "bargain" on a used watch, expecting us to fix or reverse something a previous owner either did, or at least accepted when he bought it.

It falls under the heading of what I consider "unreasonable expectations", which inevitably lead to disappointment. 

All I'm saying is, if you insist on modding your watch, you should probably keep it. And, if you're shopping for a bargain on a used piece, don't assume we'll sort out whatever it is you don't like about it.

Caveat emptor.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> You guys have no idea. I spent about 3 hours over the last two days, trying to get to the bottom of a support request on a heavily modified watch, which had gone through at least 4 different owners' hands since it was first sold, and 3 since it was modified.
> 
> It's one thing when the modification makes it clear whether or not the warranty is voided, or if it even applies, but when it becomes a gray area, and the original date of sale is unknown, it requires some sleuthing.
> 
> ...


I totally understand, I was just busting your stones.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> I totally understand, I was just busting your stones.


I know, and I ain't mad at nobody.

It's just a recurring frustration. And not just with modded watches.

We've had guys contact us with complaints on watches they purchased used. I'm not talking about the watch not working type stuff, but things like the bezel insert or handset alignment.

Just think about it. Whatever the watch looks like, the original owner accepted it, kept the watch on delivery, and wore it. If that guy sold it on the forums or eBay, his sales listing more than likely showed whether or not the bezel or hands are perfectly aligned.

Even if not, if the buyer is the type to get their pants in a twist about such things, they could have asked before making the purchase. That stuff isn't warranty-related, at all. That's returns-policy stuff.

Sometimes the seller's listing even discloses that there's some imperfection with the watch, like some little speck of something in the lume, or some tiny little imperfection on the dial. I've had guys admit to me that they bought it, thinking they were scooping up a bargain, "knowing" they could have it fixed "under warranty'. I'm like, "Dude, I'm not replacing the dial on a watch we sold 2 years ago."

Imagine buying a used car, from a private seller, then complaining to the manufacturer that the door-fender gaps aren't perfectly parallel along their entire length, or that there's some ripple in the carpet in front of the passenger seat, or that the paint has started to fade.

GTFOH.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I know, and I ain't mad at nobody.
> 
> It's just a recurring frustration. And not just with modded watches.
> 
> ...


It speaks to a weird "I'm smarter than everyone mentality." If the watch could have been fixed under warranty then the seller would have had it fixed first instead of selling it on a bargain.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I know, and I ain't mad at nobody.
> 
> It's just a recurring frustration. And not just with modded watches.
> 
> ...


Humans are strange my bro. I don't know how you deal with it all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There's a fair bit of that "I'm smarter than others" thinking among some WIS, very often among the same guys who are overly fixated on "value".

Watches are expensive man jewelry. Value has very little place in the discussion.

If you're on this forum, arguing about value, you're likely deluding yourself.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

If I buy a used watch, I accept that it might not be perfect. Even from new. But that's between the original owner and the manufacturer - if I have an issue with it on receipt, I take it up with the seller, not the manufacturer.

I bought a used Sinn 556A which had a smudge on the dial, not apparent in pix from the sale post. I forget who Sinn uses for service here in the States, but I asked how much a service, including dial replacement would be, and then I approached the seller with the estimate. I asked for either a return for full refund or partial refund for something a bit less than the full service estimate. We reached an agreement on a partial return sum, and I turned around and sold it for what I paid, less the partial return amount, fully disclosing the dial issue and potential cost to correct. 

I did not expect SInn to deal with it on a warranty basis...

Then I got a Scorpene and my life was whole.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> There's a fair bit of that "I'm smarter than others" thinking among some WIS, very often among the same guys who are overly fixated on "value".
> 
> Watches are expensive man jewelry. Value has very little place in the discussion.
> 
> ...


There's a lot of instant collection, instant experts on here for sure. (I'm a terrible old know it all, so I know it when I see it because I'm the same).

I don't know whether I'm more astonished or appalled at the rudeness you receive. If someone buys an excellent value/priced NTH that's been pre-owned, and has some misunderstandings about it. Which you patiently and very politely set right. You then get get a whole load of ingratitude and rudeness.
I'm certainly not thinking of a particular example....
Watches are pretty man baubles, wrist jewellery. Which men then go and right-brain obsess about.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Then I got a Scorpene and my life was whole.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> There's a lot of instant collection, instant experts on here for sure. (I'm a terrible old know it all, so I know it when I see it because I'm the same).
> 
> I don't know whether I'm more astonished or appalled at the rudeness you receive. If someone buys an excellent value/priced NTH that's been pre-owned, and has some misunderstandings about it. Which you patiently and very politely set right. You then get get a whole load of ingratitude and rudeness.
> I'm certainly not thinking of a particular example....
> Watches are pretty man baubles, wrist jewellery. Which men then go and right-brain obsess about.


I don't know you, at all, but I know for sure you're over 30 years old.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> There's a lot of instant collection, instant experts on here for sure. (I'm a terrible old know it all, so I know it when I see it because I'm the same).
> 
> I don't know whether I'm more astonished or appalled at the rudeness you receive. If someone buys an excellent value/priced NTH that's been pre-owned, and has some misunderstandings about it. Which you patiently and very politely set right. You then get get a whole load of ingratitude and rudeness.
> I'm certainly not thinking of a particular example....
> Watches are pretty man baubles, wrist jewellery. Which men then go and right-brain obsess about.


On the real...I'm not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back for being a swell guy.

But, just the same...

This particular situation I'm dealing with involves a watch that would have been out of warranty 2 or 3 years ago, as it was purchased in 2016 or 2017. But the warranty was voided when the owner had the watch significantly modified, as said modification would require the complete disassembly of the watch.

It's possible that the modification directly led to the problem that the watch now has - the bezel turns both ways. If it wasn't that modification, then I strongly suspect that one of the recent owners was trying to pry the bezel off, which shouldn't be done.

The guy who had the watch modified sold it to another guy, who then turned around and sold it to yet another guy. So in the course of trying to figure all this out, I've been in contact with all three guys - the original owner, the guy he sold it to, and the guy who just bought it.

I know from the production date that there's only two ways this will get fixed, since I know that trying to remove the bezel ring to get to the spring will likely destroy both parts, and ruin the case.

One solution is to replace the whole case, which means I'd sell the case. It would not make for a cheap repair, at all, given the fact we're talking about a watch that was $600 in 2016 or 2017, and was recently sold used for less than $400. I told them the case would be $315.

Until 2019, that would have been the only solution. But, as luck would have it, we had some bad cases made in 2019, and as a result, we happen to have some bezel rings, separate from the case, just sitting in Dan's shop. So, if someone happens to be fool enough to pry the bezel ring off their case, destroying it in the process, we can actually just replace that part, plus the click spring, without having to replace the whole case. Obviously, those two parts wouldn't cost nearly as much.

Understand - the warranty on this watch was voided long ago, and would have expired 2-3 years ago even if it was never voided. But I honestly don't care. I want people who own the watches to be happy with them, regardless of whether or not it's still our responsibility to fix them. I never enjoy telling someone, "sorry, we just can't help you here." I always try to find a way to get things sorted, as best we can, within reason.

So I took it upon myself to track down the most recent owner / seller, and the guy he bought the watch from, the guy who had it modded (because it seems there's now likely to be some dispute about who should get stuck with it), and let them both know that if they want, we can sell them the parts they need, to restore the watch to working condition, and I'll make them a fair price on those parts.

This is hours of my time. None of the people involved here are long-time customers / friends, who should expect that sort of support because they're one of the hardcore Fanmen. There's no new sale to be had from doing all this. I have zero responsibility here.

Meanwhile, there's a thread going on Facebook, started yesterday afternoon, in which guys are whinging that I charge too much. Seriously? How many other brand owners would go to this much trouble to sort out a mess like this, one not of his own making, on a watch sold 3-5 years ago, at least 2 years out of warranty, if the warranty hadn't been voided before that?

Days like this, I feel like I don't charge enough.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Regarding how much stuff costs...

A few years ago I bought a nice, used Omega Seamaster, and it came with an OEM bracelet, and an Omega shark-mesh bracelet. I ended up selling the watch, but kept the mesh as I had a couple other Seamasters. When I realized I wasn't wearing the mesh, I stuck it on eBay. High bidder gets it. 7 days later it sold for $600 bucks. No watch, no movement, no after-sales support. Just a mesh bracelet. Just curious, I did a little search for Rolex bracelets. Whoa.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Days like this, I feel like I don't charge enough.


You probably don't. Also, I hope you won't before I get me one. I promise I won't mod it...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> You probably don't. Also, I hope you won't before I get me one. I promise I won't mod it...
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Well, as long as you promise...

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> On the real...I'm not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back for being a swell guy.
> 
> But, just the same...
> 
> ...


There are a couple brand owners that get my respect for how they handle strange one-off crazy requests. You are one of them, and the only other in my experience is Chip. 
I respect what you just posted and that level of care and dedication to a happy customer speaks volumes. 
Chip (Aevig), I know you know him , actually did the same thing for me a few years ago. I had received a first gen Huldra in a trade in like 2016-2017. It had major crown and stem and movement issues that were not disclosed to me during the trade. 
I reached out to Chip just asking for ideas and advice, I wasn't hoping for anything more than that since I didn't buy the watch from him and I think it was out of warranty. I would have had it fixed locally at my own expense. 
Chip told me to send him the watch, he sent me a pre paid shipping label to the Netherlands. Once he had it he got back to me saying it was in such bad shape that he was just going to send me a brand new watch head! Like wtf, my head was blown. Chip didn't ask for anything in return, he just wanted to fix the issue. This was more than I ever expected from him seeing as I only wanted his advice since he made that watch and was familiar with it. 
So kudos to you and Chip. I'm a fan for life.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Well, as long as you promise...
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


I did mod one Borealis... changed the movement from a 8215 to a 8215A... and replaced the crappy hands... aaaand... but, I promise...

I will butcher all the cheap Seiko I can get my 10 thumbs on...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I did mod one Borealis... changed the movement from a 8215 to a 8215A... and replaced the crappy hands... aaaand... but, I promise...
> 
> I will butcher all the cheap Seiko I can get my 10 thumbs on...
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Your post just reminded me of when I was a kid, and saw a show about a guy who lost a thumb, but the doctors were able to amputate one of his big toes, and graft it onto his hand, making a toe-thumb out of it.

I literally spent years worrying about losing a thumb because of that.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> On the real...I'm not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back for being a swell guy.
> 
> But, just the same...
> 
> ...












Lol but really, the few times I've seen you interact with brand critics / internet complainers I've been impressed because I would have let them have it. And let's not even talk about the "How dare you Doc! You're AD charges VAT on eBay" discussion from the other day.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

seatega said:


> View attachment 15758796
> 
> 
> Lol but really, the few times I've seen you interact with brand critics / internet complainers I've been impressed because I would have let them have it. And let's not even talk about the "How dare you Doc! You're AD charges VAT on eBay" discussion from the other day.


Dude, I need to get me one of them horns! Damn that made me laugh hard!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

"In another classic "Hoser" anecdote, CDR Joe Satrapa was experimenting with a 20mm cannon from an F-14 Tomcat when, "One day while Hoser was playing around with his new invention, the breach blew up taking off Hoser's right index finger and thumb. Note that a right thumb is essential for flying a jet fighter because the electric trim tab is located on the top of the control stick where the pilot's thumb rests while holding the stick. Thus, a pilot without a right thumb cannot fly a jet fighter."

But according to the now famous anecdote posted on the Naval Academy alumni blog, the loss of his right thumb would not stop "Hoser" from flying fighter aircraft. "He convinced the surgeon to take off his right big toe and attach it to his right hand . . . now he had three fingers and a big toe. It looked a bit like a lobster claw but Hoser demonstrated that he could operate the trim button, so he went back on flight status . . . with a new call sign, "Toeser". Hey, you just can't make this stuff up."









Legendary Air Combat Pioneer, Vietnam F-8E Fighter Jock and F-14 Pilot Joe “Hoser” Satrapa Has Died


Satrapa Advocated Use of Guns in Modern Dogfighting; His Influence Remains Today. Legendary U.S. Navy F-8E Crusader pilot and aerial gunnery advocate




theaviationist.com


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> There's a lot of instant collection, instant experts on here for sure. (I'm a terrible old know it all, so I know it when I see it because I'm the same).


I know less about watches now than I did 5 years ago


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Your post just reminded me of when I was a kid, and saw a show about a guy who lost a thumb, but the doctors were able to amputate one of his big toes, and graft it onto his hand, making a toe-thumb out of it.
> 
> I literally spent years worrying about losing a thumb because of that.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


When I was a kid I single handedly helped defeat Betamax(in my dad's house) using all these thumbs, while "modding"(vivisection).

Now that you mention it, my cloudy memories have a vague recollection of said show... off to the Google...

Edit: back after 40 seconds of googling... I had zero #%^*ing idea that was an actual thing! It makes perfect sense, not sure why that didn't come up in my daily stagger through life...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Your post just reminded me of when I was a kid, and saw a show about a guy who lost a thumb, but the doctors were able to amputate one of his big toes, and graft it onto his hand, making a toe-thumb out of it.
> 
> I literally spent years worrying about losing a thumb because of that.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


If it happened, you would have to change your signature to say that your toes are typing furiously


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> If it happened, you would have to change your signature to say that your toes are typing furiously


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I don't know you, at all, but I know for sure you're over 30 years old.


Lol..
What gave it away? That I'm a pompous old fool, and/or that I know that a smidgen of politeness can take a person a long way?

You're right of course, chronologically I'm in my 40's. But in my head I'm 25, and emotionally a whole 12 and a 1/2 and nearly in my big boy pants.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> On the real...I'm not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back for being a swell guy.
> 
> But, just the same...
> 
> ...


As we're all aware, it's all about customer service in this internet age. The fact that you do what you do_ is noticed_. There are two reasons NTH has-been successful. Good designs, and serious customer focused leg-work.
I don't like giving away free praise, I'm a curmudgeon and it hurts my teeth. But what I've said isn't controversial.

I work in hospitality. I'll give away free meals, drinks, and even stays to avoid bad trip advisor reviews. It often means spending serious money on people who've complained sometimes ridiculously, just to keep the customer happy. Sound familiar ?!

Interesting what you say about age. Because really only a particularly clueless person, which is often when we're young would've demanded the impossible, and expected service that you don't get below $100,000.
Possibly because for a youngster $700 is a big purchase and feels like a huge amount of money. For the rest of us with houses, cars, and family's we're long past that.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> I know less about watches now than I did 5 years ago


Yeah what is that about?
When I was I my 20's I was the wisest, smartest, cleverest person you could meet. (That's what I thought anyway). 
Now, not only am I borderline moron, I know I am. My ability to make bad, ill imformed decisions is legendary.

I'd love to say I'm being ironic, but honestly and sadly I'm not


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Yeah what is that about?
> When I was I my 20's I was the wisest, smartest, cleverest person you could meet. (That's what I thought anyway).
> Now, not only am I borderline moron, I know I am. My ability to make bad, ill imformed decisions is legendary.
> 
> I'd love to say I'm being ironic, but honestly and sadly I'm not


not to date myself, but "i was so much older then, i'm younger than that now."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

i’m trying to figure the mod, and guessing it’s the bead-blasted one. 

if it was the flatted crown zwaardvis, you’d have told us, and this is a bezel problem as you said. (is flat crown guy excited about Sub 2.0?)

who else did a significant mod? you’re not talking about any of mine. most i still have. 

jelli and i both changed handsets, on santa cruz and santa fe, respectively. both sold to happy owners. 

if just an insert swap gone bad, you’d say. 

if a bad retaining wire, youd say. 

im betting bead-blaster. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

hwa said:


> not to date myself, but "i was so much older then, i'm younger than that now."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm afraid you've really dated yourself there.... ?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> As we're all aware, it's all about customer service in this internet age. The fact that you do what you do_ is noticed_. There are two reasons NTH has-been successful. Good designs, and serious customer focused leg-work.
> I don't like giving away free praise, I'm a curmudgeon and it hurts my teeth. But what I've said isn't controversial.
> 
> I work in hospitality. I'll give away free meals, drinks, and even stays to avoid bad trip advisor reviews. It often means spending serious money on people who've complained sometimes ridiculously, just to keep the customer happy. Sound familiar ?!
> ...


You do / did come across as a curmudgeon, but one easily sympathizes, and I personally find it endearing. Not sure why. I just find old salty dudes hilarious. Fred Amos from Bernhardt is endlessly entertaining, IMO.

I don't like painting an entire generation with a broad brush, but the fact that I find it refreshing when a younger person displays maturity and good manners just proves it's not generally the norm.

Your last point is a salient one, and it's something I've discussed with other brand owners, within the context of how we look at pricing (and regardless of customer age).

No matter how much something costs, be it a house, a car, or a watch, most people making those purchases are spending as much as they can possibly afford. Very few people can afford a $600,000 house, but go shopping for a $300,000 house.

We tend to shop near, if not slightly above the top end of our affordable range, seeking good quality, and hoping that spending as much as we can will get it.

But very few if any of us make allowances for imperfections or deficiencies, even if we once felt like we got a "very good deal", or even if we would ordinarily recognize that spending less typically gets us less.

In fact, the first time buyer spending $150,000 on a house is likely to have less realistic expectations than the older couple buying for the third time, and spending $600,000. The first time buyer is going to go slower, ask more questions, have more anxiety, and complain more about everything.

Ironically, the buyer spending $150k is frequently more demanding, often in absolute terms, but at least relative to the price, than the one spending $600k.

To put that into watch terms, consider the guy on the forums, looking at a watch that will be $300 in pre-order, or on Kickstarter, and he's blown away by the "bang-for-the-buck", because the specs and components can typically only be found in watches costing at least $600.

Odds are, that guy typically only shops for watches around $300, not $600, because $300 is his upper limit. Now he thinks he's scoring a great deal. Yet he probably also expects great quality, and great support, great communication from the brand, and the project to be delivered on time, or at the very worst, not too much later than expected.

That's what we all expect, regardless of how much we're spending, because to us, it's typically "a lot of money". There's a disconnect between his recognition of what a great deal he's getting, and how realistic his expectations may or may not be. The guy with the $300 limit is often going to have all the same expectations the guy with the $600 limit has.

Worse yet, he may be even more demanding. If he doesn't recognize the deal he's getting may be too good to be true, because he believes it's possible to save money by "cutting out the middle man". There's a higher likelihood he has unreasonable expectations. He could expect _more_ than the guy who would have paid $600.

I point out to other brand owners, if you're selling a watch which really ought to be $600, but you've priced it at $300, it will likely be very hard to deliver that $600 value, including great quality, and great support, and great communication, and deliver it on time. Yet customers' expectations in that scenario will often be even higher, despite the fantastic deal you've given them, because your pricing attracted the least realistic customers.

It'll be hard to deliver on those expectations, because your lower-than-low price will almost certainly result in more sales, with a high percentage of customers who are spending the most they can afford to spend, and many among them won't understand you can't realistically get a $600 watch for $300, without some compromises being made somewhere.

And don't expect you'll be able to "make it up on volume".

There are only so many hours in the day. If you triple your sales, you'll have triple the support requests, do triple the QC, spend triple the time doing order fulfillment, etc. You won't be able to spend as much time working on your next project, or doing anything else which your business requires. And if you sell at half the price you really should have, you won't have the margins you'll need to hire help. You'll inevitably fall behind on everything.

But don't expect customers to cut you any slack. Don't expect them to overlook any imperfections in the product, or weakness in your support, because they got "a great deal". They don't care that you're a one-man-show, working the business part-time. To them, $300 is "a lot of money". They'll expect what you promised to deliver, and then some.

Better to price the product appropriately, high enough that your sales volume and margins will be balanced. You'll have fewer sales, but better margins. You'll attract more reasonable customers, and repel more of those who have unrealistic expectations. You'll spend less time doing support, QC, order fulfillment, etc. As long as your inventory turns over at the correct rate, you'll have the margins and cash flow to hire help when you need it. You'll be able to deliver a quality product, on time, and support it with great service.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> i'm trying to figure the mod, and guessing it's the bead-blasted one.
> 
> if it was the flatted crown zwaardvis, you'd have told us, and this is a bezel problem as you said. (is flat crown guy excited about Sub 2.0?)
> 
> ...


Leave it alone, please. I wasn't trying to out anyone or put a bad light on anyone. Don't want to suggest any ill intent or deceit.

Regardless of anyone's intent, these things happen.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> You do / did come across as a curmudgeon, but one easily sympathizes, and I personally find it endearing. Not sure why. I just find old salty dudes hilarious. Fred Amos from Bernhardt is endlessly entertaining, IMO.
> 
> I don't like painting an entire generation with a broad brush, but the fact that I find it refreshing when a younger person displays maturity and good manners just proves it's not generally the norm.
> 
> ...


I followed that argument and you've really thought it through. (Obviously, being a brand owner). I agreed with you the whole way through.

There's so much "bang-for-buck" talk and "unrealistic expectations" as you say, that it's almost a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. So then the best/only thing to do, is to price properly.

The thing I really notice lately is the over emphasis on specifications, especially since China can produce acceptable affordable quality so cheaply.
However, a $300 watch may have the same specs as a $600 watch. Or a $600 to $1200.
But as you say, they may have the same apparent worth based on specs. But they don't. One will have a lot more emphasis on build quality, QC, and customer service. For both watch and movement. For example they may have identical movements, but the care taken with one will be orders of difference to the other.

There is not really such a thing as a bargain. You're getting what you pay for. Unless as you pointed out it was miss priced to start with.

* Don't mistake this. I'm not knocking Chinese watches, at all. They're excellent for what they are. All watches come from there to a greater or lesser extent anyway


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> You're getting what you pay for. Unless as you pointed out it was miss priced to start with.


That's really the key point, that last line.

There are many micros and factory-owned brands who are under-pricing their products, many without realizing it (yet), setting up the inevitable comparison of Brand A to Brand B, which appear to have the same specs/components, and even the same quality, and perhaps even the same reputation for stellar support.

What am I, the brand owner, to say in that situation, when someone compares what I'm selling to a similar product from another brand, which sells for less?

Does that (non)-customer, the one making that comparison, put any value on the intangibles, such as the time I spend going the extra mile, or engaging with them online? Probably not. Does he believe me if I try to explain that my competitor is running his business on dangerously thin margins? Probably not. Does he care that my competitor has to work many more hours than I do, sacrificing time with his family or friends, which he must do, in order to keep pace with me, when I'm charging an appropriate price, and he isn't? Probably not.

In fact, just the opposite, he clearly expects me to work harder, for less money, just like my competitor, so he can get a watch with more "bang for the buck".

Would he be willing to work harder, for less money, so his employer or customers can get better value? At the end of my working years, is he going to be there, to kick in a little for my retirement, to help me be more comfortable in my old age, as a token of his appreciation? Is he going to explain to my kids why I wasn't able to spend more time with them, and how it was a good trade being made, for them to have less time with their dad, so he could save $100 on a watch?

Life's too short. The guys not charging enough inevitably have to cut corners somewhere, or they burn out, or the business ultimately fails, because it was run into insolvency, due to having too-thin profit margins, and an owner who couldn't recognize the obvious as it was happening.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Double p


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> That's really the key point, that last line.
> 
> There are many micros and factory-owned brands who are under-pricing their products, many without realizing it (yet), setting up the inevitable comparison of Brand A to Brand B, which appear to have the same specs/components, and even the same quality, and perhaps even the same reputation for stellar support.
> 
> ...


It's those intangibles that don't appear on a spec sheet that are what separates the okay from the good/excellent. The better part fit and finish, care with the movement, QC, and CS. That's what matters to me.

Running at a loss may work for venture capital funded, monopoly seeking tech start ups. But the rest of the world have to run for the long-term. Thinking of the _health_ of the business, employees and oneself.

Though like you say it doesn't help with expectations, when business doesn't price sustainably. People think that's the norm when it's not. It's bad business practice. I can totally see why you feel about it as you do.


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> That's really the key point, that last line.
> 
> There are many micros and factory-owned brands who are under-pricing their products, many without realizing it (yet), setting up the inevitable comparison of Brand A to Brand B, which appear to have the same specs/components, and even the same quality, and perhaps even the same reputation for stellar support.
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> That's really the key point, that last line.
> 
> There are many micros and factory-owned brands who are under-pricing their products, many without realizing it (yet), setting up the inevitable comparison of Brand A to Brand B, which appear to have the same specs/components, and even the same quality, and perhaps even the same reputation for stellar support.
> 
> ...


After a lifetime in senior retail management and buying, if there is one thing I have learned, value for money is 50% reality and 50% perception. The term "you get what you pay for" is NOT always true, and if it were, a Rolex Submariner wouldn't be $10k


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

INAMINUTE said:


> After a lifetime in senior retail management and buying, if there is one thing I have learned, value for money is 50% reality and 50% perception. The term "you get what you pay for" is NOT always true, and if it were, a Rolex Submariner wouldn't be $10k


i know, right?! my Sub cost about $5k. It's worth about $7k now. All my other watches lost value when unboxed.

Rolex bashing is good sport in F71, but value is where people find it and Rolex provides better return than a savings account.

maybe we should take up car bashing. depreciation is immediate and inexorable.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

What I understand:
- some people might think this or that watch is over-priced

Based on:

only spec sheet details
ignoring intangibles
ignoring proprietary features
pricing of competing brands/models
ignorance: apples to oranges, comparing models, brands, spec, basic economics, etc.
a basic misunderstanding of manufacturer pricing vs. personal value

What I don't understand:
- posting their opinion regarding perceived value on social media as if it is a problem with manufacturer pricing

Guy opined on FB that it may not be worth the asking price because, "...it 'only' has a NH35 movement." Lots of haterz piled-on. But in the end? Guy bought a silver dial Devil Ray through Serious Watches.

Now. When was the DRv2 released? Point being, he could actually still buy one new. Try buying a Maranez Samui in steel. Or a Zelos Swordfish 40mm, a couple hours after release. Guessing guy would also be the kind to post on social media about how microbrands should "just make more" of their more popular models, which sell out in short order. ...Because they missed out.

Problem is rarely that this or that watch is overpriced. How would anyone besides the owner and his accountant (and maybe the owner's wife...) have the numbers (manufacturing, overhead, sales, etc.) and personal insight into the goals of the owner for the business venture, to know this one way or another?

Whenever I hear someone say "This watch is overpriced!", it immediately translates to, "I just don't want to pay asking price for this watch!" Waah. Cry me a river.


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

hwa said:


> i know, right?! my Sub cost about $5k. It's worth about $7k now. All my other watches lost value when unboxed.
> 
> Rolex bashing is good sport in F71, but value is where people find it and Rolex provides better return than a savings account.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean from a residual value perspective, and I think you know that. Can't help wondering what you are doing on the affordable watch forum?


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> What I understand:
> - some people might think this or that watch is over-priced
> 
> Based on:
> ...


You are absolutely right in the sense that any item is worth what someone will pay. After all, that's it's real value. I am very much a person of logic, and in general my purchases are based on three things. 1) How much do I like it, 2) is the spec and quality represented by it's price, 3) what kind of residual value may it have. Ultimately it's a combination of the three. I have been lucky, because in general most of the watches I have bought I have managed to wear and gain pleasure from, and then been able to sell them at a small profit (exceptions of course). If my purchases had been made solely on an emotional basis, I may have lost a lot of money, and in turn experienced much displeasure.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

INAMINUTE said:


> You are absolutely right in the sense that any item is worth what someone will pay. After all, that's it's real value. I am very much a person of logic, and in general my purchases are based on three things. 1) How much do I like it, 2) is the spec and quality represented by it's price, 3) what kind of residual value may it have. Ultimately it's a combination of the three. I have been lucky, because in general most of the watches I have bought I have managed to wear and gain pleasure from, and then been able to sell them at a small profit (exceptions of course). If my purchases had been made solely on an emotional basis, I may have lost a lot of money, and in turn experienced much displeasure.


You're talking value; I'm talking about the difference between price and value. It's people who don't seem to know the difference that leave me wondering about the state of the human race.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

INAMINUTE said:


> I didn't mean from a residual value perspective, and I think you know that. Can't help wondering what you are doing on the affordable watch forum?


affordability is a state of mind as much as wallet

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

and another thing on value proposition:

“you get what you pay for” applies equally to the moment of sale as it does to every moment thereafter until death. as long as you own it, you can value it as you like. 

some buy for immediate gratification, some for investment, some for both. 

if you’re buying an “affordable” watch new, thinking it’s an appreciating asset, that’s a bad gamble. few examples that i’ve seen apart from classic seikos people are finding in the attics these days. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> You're talking value; I'm talking about the difference between price and value. It's people who don't seem to know the difference that leave me wondering about the state of the human race.


Sorry, my fault for not being a mind reader, and not having the ability to understand the phscy of someone who believes they are superior to other people. Please accept my apologies


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

hwa said:


> and another thing on value proposition:
> 
> "you get what you pay for" applies equally to the moment of sale as it does to every moment thereafter until death. as long as you own it, you can value it as you like.
> 
> ...


I dont buy a watch for investment purposes, I buy them for pleasure


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Heading out for my COVID vaccine wearing my favorite Amphion. Love this engraved crown!


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## [BOBO] (May 12, 2020)

INAMINUTE said:


> I dont buy a watch for investment purposes, I buy them for pleasure





INAMINUTE said:


> Thank you for your kind words, they gave me a great laugh. In answer to your question, I rarely buy a watch for more than I think I can sell it for. This has allowed me to improve the quality of my collection quite considerably, with little investment. You should try it!


Probably just a language thing. But if you buy something with the intent to sell it for a higher price at a letter point, it kind of sounds like an investment...


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> Heading out for my COVID vaccine wearing my favorite Amphion. Love this engraved crown!
> View attachment 15760271


I recently had my first jab, do you have to pay for them in the US ?


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

[BOBO] said:


> Probably just a language thing. But if you buy something with the intent to sell it for a higher price at a letter point, it kind of sounds like an investment...


But I don't. I buy watches to enjoy, but am careful enough not to purchase something I don't want to lose money on. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with anyone who buys watches as investments, it's just not what I do


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

INAMINUTE said:


> Sorry, my fault for not being a mind reader, and not having the ability to understand the phscy of someone who believes they are superior to other people. Please accept my apologies


*psyche

You don't need to be a mind reader, you just need reading comprehension and a will to reply in kind to the topic at hand.

But this: 


INAMINUTE said:


> Can't help wondering what you are doing on the affordable watch forum?


Doesn't quite jibe with this:


INAMINUTE said:


> ...not having the ability to understand the phscy of someone who believes they are superior to other people.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

INAMINUTE said:


> I recently had my first jab, do you have to pay for them in the US ?


Nope, they are free for everyone here. which is a good thing. doesnt matter if you have medical insurance or not.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> Heading out for my COVID vaccine wearing my favorite Amphion. Love this engraved crown!
> View attachment 15760271


I've always been impressed with the depth and quality of the engraving on NTH crowns. The fact they're lumed is cherry on top of the icing, on top of the cake.
The crisp and deep knurling on the bezel is also impressive. 
I love a nice deep crenulated coin edge bezel. Usually avoided by manufacturers because of the cost of doing it well.
Little touches...

Great picture, great watch. Wear in health.


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## Bird-Dog (Jan 22, 2021)

docvail said:


> You do / did come across as a curmudgeon, but one easily sympathizes, and I personally find it endearing. Not sure why. I just find old salty dudes hilarious. Fred Amos from Bernhardt is endlessly entertaining, IMO.
> 
> I don't like painting an entire generation with a broad brush, but the fact that I find it refreshing when a younger person displays maturity and good manners just proves it's not generally the norm.
> 
> ...


I very much appreciate your honesty. Makes me want to buy an NTH that much more.

Having spent several decades sourcing proprietary products from 3rd-party manufacturers in other industries, there are a few additional interrelated factors that effect the equation too.


MOQ (minimum order quantity) - Start-up companies are inevitably faced with the dilemma of having to commit to MOQ's without yet having an established market nor any idea of how quickly they'll be able to turn over their inventory. Often their natural reaction is to price lower, assuming quicker sell-through. But, as you say, that can negatively effect their ability to provide service. It's also likely to effect quality when trying to negotiate the lowest price while only ordering the minimum.
Economies of Scale - Higher production quantity tends to lower cost, whether on individual items or spread across multiples. However, it can also effect quality. Even with the best of intention, if production line capacities are stressed, quality will suffer. Factories are not immune to over-committing resources. Knowing the "sweet spot" can have a profound effect on the final outcome (see: Experience).
Relationships - Factories tend to provide better QC for established customers that they know they can rely on for future orders. If they suspect that an order from a start-up is a one-shot-deal they have less incentive to deliver the same level of quality.
Experience/Product Knowledge - I've always said, China is capable of producing world-class quality. The question is, will they this time? And will they the next time, and the next, and the next? For many factories, cutting corners is part-and-parcel to increasing their own margins. Knowing exactly what (and how) to specify in a production contract is key to preventing surprises. The bottom-line is, quality tends to improve with experience (assuming that is a goal). And that's worth something!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> It's those intangibles that don't appear on a spec sheet that are what separates the okay from the good/excellent. The better part fit and finish, care with the movement, QC, and CS. That's what matters to me.
> 
> Running at a loss may work for venture capital funded, monopoly seeking tech start ups. But the rest of the world have to run for the long-term. Thinking of the _health_ of the business, employees and oneself.
> 
> Though like you say it doesn't help with expectations, when business doesn't price sustainably. People think that's the norm when it's not. It's bad business practice. I can totally see why you feel about it as you do.


One of my constant struggles is that the market has no memory while discussing "fairness" in pricing, nor does the market truly understand the costs involved in running an inventory-intensive business like this.

There will always be other brands selling something which appears similar for less. Know who else sold something similar for less? Almost all of my competitors who appeared, then disappeared when they went out of business (often because their business model wasn't sustainable, in the long term, because they were under-pricing).

No one remembers the companies who under-priced, and failed as a result, when making that Brand A vs Brand B comparison today.

Everyone assumes today's Brand A & Brand B are equally likely to survive in the long term, just as everyone assumes Brands A & B deliver the same quality, in both the product and the support, when they appear to have the same specs and components, before they've experienced either the product or the support of either brand.

When I say my product isn't over-priced, but rather my competitor's is underpriced, and our respective inventory turnover rates prove the truth of it, the counter to that is generally that some other brand's watches are always selling out in short order, as if that's the only metric needed to judge the viability of the business.

Whereas I see it as proof the brand needs to increase their prices, in order to have inventory hang around roughly as long as it takes to produce more. To me that seems not just logical, but fairly obvious.

They never see the instant selling out as a problem, as I do, but rather as a good thing, which it surely isn't. When we were selling watches faster than we could make them, we increased both prices and production volume, incrementally, until we got back to the ideal inventory turnover rate.

A company selling out instantly is under-pricing, and working on too-thin margins. A company selling out too slowly is over-pricing. Both result in weak cash-flow. That's just basic business finance, despite all subjective opinions to the contrary.

The truth is most people just don't care if a brand remains in existence past the warranty period on the watch they're buying.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

doc, has anyone studied the value of warranty to purchase in affordable watches? personally, any affordable three-hander is more likely a replacement than repair. nh35 is $30. 9015 is $90. an eta can be had for $115-200. 

not a whole lot to go wrong that strictly requires warranty. 

i look at your 6-year more as a reflection of quality of build and dependability of 9015 and other movements you use. it says, to me, buy with confidence. i suppose that’s also because you have earned a reputation, but there aren’t many microbrands where i’d have bet on 6-year staying power. yes, some have, but i wouldn’t have bet on it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> After a lifetime in senior retail management and buying, if there is one thing I have learned, value for money is 50% reality and 50% perception. The term "you get what you pay for" is NOT always true, and if it were, a Rolex Submariner wouldn't be $10k


I'm genuinely curious to know what you think it really ought to cost, and why.

More than once, I've done a mental exercise, wherein I try to calculate what it would cost me to produce, and therefore at what price I would then have to sell, something of objectively equivalent specs and quality, compared to the Submariner, or Pelagos.

At the absolute lowest end, sourcing most of the raw materials and having the main components produced and assembled in China, then dropping in a more respectable Swiss movement, like a Soprod M100, I've never been able to come up with a retail price under $1500-$2000. Just sourcing the 904L stainless or titanium is going to add a good bit to the cost, as will getting that same level of finishing. And of course, the movement is much more expensive than the Miyotas we're using.

But, as a group, WIS tend to put a limit on what they'll pay for a "Chinese-made" watch. Even if the quality of components is objectively the same, we have our biases, and we're willing to fight for them. For the sake of keeping discussions polite, I like to stipulate that German-made steel (or titanium) is metallurgically superior to its Chinese counterpart. So let's agree that we need to avoid China on this one, and source everything from the first world - Europe, or the USA, though the USA really isn't an option for most components.

When I start to add in the costs of sourcing those materials and components in Europe, and doing assembly in Europe or the USA, the numbers rapidly rise. Since Rolex's current calibre now has an extended power reserve, I guess we'd also need to upgrade from the M100 to some other Swiss calibre with a longer PR, yet one which is still appropriately "exclusive", since we can't put up a garden-variety ETA Powermatic 80 against the likes of the Rolex cal. 3230/3235.

Where does that land us, price-wise? I'm honestly unsure, but I think it must surely be north of $4000-$5000. You can get an actual Pelagos for about $4k, making them suddenly seem like a fair bargain.

Does that mean that's the limit of what the Submariner is worth, $5k, if that's an accurate estimate of what it would cost for some other company to produce something of objectively equivalent specs, components, and quality?

On the one hand, I'd say, yes, it does mean that. But on the other hand, how do we put a value on intangibles like design, brand recognition, "heritage", etc? Is there a rationale for rewarding the innovation of Rolex, where everything comes from in-house, rather than the company which is basically sourcing everything externally?

Make no mistake, I'm not arguing the Submariner is worth $10k, objectively. I'm fairly sure it isn't. But value is often subjective. Not to mention that the potential, if not likelihood of price appreciation shouldn't be too quickly dismissed.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> What I understand:
> - some people might think this or that watch is over-priced
> 
> Based on:
> ...


To be fair, the guy on FB complaining about the DevilRay's price was in the EU, where the VAT added ~20%. But in retrospect, it does seem like he was comparing it to prices for similar offerings being sold WITHOUT the VAT added into the price, which of course isn't a fair comparison at all.

Whether I'm right about that or not, I'm sure many others commenting in that discussion failed to adjust their thinking to take the VAT into account.

And, regardless, you're right - try buying one of the sold-out watches often thrown up for comparison. You can't. Because "sold out".

I don't like to say this publicly, but I care more about how people who actually buy the watch (i.e., my customers) think about the value they're getting, and less about how people who DON'T buy the watch view it, since those people aren't my customers.

I don't like to say it because it sounds arrogant, but it's actually logical. If my customers were routinely returning watches for refunds, saying the quality didn't warrant the price, I'd have to consider that, but that's not what happens. People who actually buy the watches overwhelmingly say they're fantastic value, considering their quality.

Why should I put more weight on non-customers' opinions than on my actual customers' opinions, when every metric available to me - turnover, customer reviews, return for refund rates, repeat sales, etc - validates what we're doing?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> Can't help wondering what you are doing on the affordable watch forum?


He came for the affordable watches. He stayed for the pleasant conversation.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> *I didn't mean from a residual value perspective*, and I think you know that. Can't help wondering what you are doing on the affordable watch forum?





INAMINUTE said:


> You are absolutely right in the sense that any item is worth what someone will pay. After all, that's it's real value. I am very much a person of logic, and in general my purchases are based on three things. 1) How much do I like it, 2) is the spec and quality represented by it's price, 3) *what kind of residual value may it have*. Ultimately it's a combination of the three. I have been lucky, because in general most of the watches I have bought I have managed to wear and gain pleasure from, and then been able to sell them at a small profit (exceptions of course). If my purchases had been made solely on an emotional basis, I may have lost a lot of money, and in turn experienced much displeasure.


Mate, not trying to talk you into leaving, but since you're here, you should know at least I, and I think many here, value clarity and logical consistency in our discussions.

As I've said to you elsewhere, you seem to have a strong sense of your own reasoning, despite some clear examples to the contrary, which I've tried to point out in subtle (read: polite) ways. The bold/underlined sections in your two posts above are just one more example of the contradictory, or at the very least illogical statements you've made, despite seeing yourself as quite logical.

Let me point out another, quite subtle nuance - you said you're a person of logic, but your first criterion for consideration in assessing a potential purchase isn't the seemingly objective considerations of specs/components vs price, or residual value, but the clearly subjective consideration of how much you like it.

Elsewhere, I said people buy watches for emotional reasons (how much they like a watch), and seek to justify those decisions with logic, generally citing specs/components vs price, or quality, and less frequently but still occasionally citing residual value. You apparently took my saying that as being bombastic, or defensive, or otherwise argumentative as a response to you within the discussion we were having at the time, and yet here you are, essentially repeating exactly the same thing, effectively proving my point.

I think it's much more true to say your purchases were largely emotional, less logical, though, like most watch collectors, you didn't find it too hard to rationalize your decision in a way that certainly seemed logical, because you're not yet ready to admit the true nature of this hobby.

Would it harm you in any way to admit you're more like the rest of us than you profess to be? I think if you do that, you'll find less reason to argue with your fellows here, and enjoy the hobby more.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

yeah, like 8 years ago when the Ricarrdo was just a gleam in yer eye

some nonsense you just ignore 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> I dont buy a watch for investment purposes, I buy them for pleasure


Again, at the risk of beating a dead horse, you've already stated, here and elsewhere, that you take residual value into account when making a purchase, and have turned a profit on some of the watches you've sold (or are attempting to, as in the case of that Heitis you're struggling to sell, at twice what you paid for it).

And yet, within this same sentence, you've professed to buy for pleasure, an emotional motivation, not needing nor likely having an objective explanation. Surely your pleasure isn't derived from reciting the spec sheet, or imagining your future sale, supposedly at a profit, right?

Embracing some degree of logical consistency will generally make your interactions here more enjoyable, for you, and others.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> yeah, like 8 years ago when the Ricarrdo was just a gleam in yer eye
> 
> some nonsense you just ignore
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


After you've been here for, oh say about 7-8 years, you start to get a feel for the place...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Oh, and had a pint or two with the faces behind the user-names. That helps. BTW Andrew, we still need to do that again, once this whole plague thing blows over.

Headed to Paris tonight, anybody need anything? Maybe a LIP GMT, or a Yema?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Maybe a LIP GMT...?


Arrrgh! But no.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Oh, and had a pint or two with the faces behind the user-names. That helps. BTW Andrew, we still need to do that again, once this whole plague thing blows over.
> 
> Headed to Paris tonight, anybody need anything? Maybe a LIP GMT, or a Yema?


I've always fancied the LIP Grande Ski. You'll have to take a short detour to the UK on your way home...... Oh hold on, we're completely covid locked down again...... damn.

The WUS meet ups we have twice a year in London are a total high light. Nice meeting lots of the forum regulars, putting faces to names. Made some good friends.
Real shame we've not been able to do it lately.

But I'm only a newbie on here anyway, compared to some


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> I've always fancied the LIP Grande Ski. You'll have to take a short detour to the UK on your way home...... Oh hold on, we're completely covid locked down again...... damn.
> 
> The WUS meet ups we have twice a year in London are a total high light. Nice meeting lots of the forum regulars, putting faces to names. Made some good friends.
> Real shame we've not been able to do it lately.
> ...


I haven't made the WUS meetings, but I've had a couple smaller ones with members here. When we layover in London, we're in Kensington very near the High Street station. I'll make sure to tag you when things open up again. I'm only there for 24 hours, but it usually works out for a meet-up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bird-Dog said:


> I very much appreciate your honesty. Makes me want to buy an NTH that much more.
> 
> Having spent several decades sourcing proprietary products from 3rd-party manufacturers in other industries, there are a few additional interrelated factors that effect the equation too.
> 
> ...


A window into my world, based on my personal experience/observation...

*MOQ's *- are a big part of what's killing the industry, though I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about it.

If factories were able and willing to turn out a quality product in lower numbers, we'd have much more variety, and companies would have much less risk in experimenting with new designs.

MOQ's force brands to produce more inventory than they may be able to sell at the appropriate price (see how that keeps coming up?), with the needed margins, within a short-enough timeline. They're a big part of why so many brands under-price. It's out of necessity.

As a very real-world example - businesses should turn their inventory over 4x / year, or every 91.25 days. But what happens when it takes a small startup 2 years to sell through 300-500 pieces of a watch they produced, because they had to produce 300-500 pieces?

Inevitably, they have to lower the price to sell the inventory fast enough, if they want the cash available to pay their operating costs. Thus, in order to keep the business going, at all, they're forced to run it on too-thin margins, at least until they can turn their inventory over fast enough to keep pace with their MOQ's.

Hence, if our MOQ's are 300-500 pieces, and we need to turn inventory 4x per year, then regardless of our prices, we're really not sustainable until we reach 1200-1500 pieces sold per year. Even at that production/sales pace, we still need to maintain the necessary margins. Most micros are well below that sales pace. Underpricing only compounds the problems, all driven by our MOQs.

*Economies of scale* - are non-existent, when you outsource your production, if the notion is that our production costs will go down as our production volume goes up.

That's nonsense. All the good vendors are working at capacity. There's no incentive for them to lower my production costs just because I order 1000 pieces rather than 300 pieces. It could be 30,000 pieces, and it wouldn't matter, because it's their production capacity, not mine. They're the ones who stand to gain economies of scale, but they've already gained them, when they hit capacity.

The only economies of scale a business like mine can gain is operationally. If I spend 3 months and $3,000 developing a new model, those costs represent a lower percentage of my total costs when I make 600, as opposed to 300. But if I sell twice as many, we'll do twice the QC, twice the order fulfillment, and have twice the support requests. There's really very little efficiency to be realized by increasing volume in a business like this, though there is some.

*Relationships *- yep, guanxi is a real thing. I know my vendor treats me better than some other brand owners, because my business is more valuable to him than their business is.

*China* - let me tell you a story that will tell you all you need to know about the mindset difference.

We were in the car, in Shenzhen, for the first time. Me, Sujain from Melbourne Watch Company, and Chip from Aevig, who is from the Netherlands, but is of Chinese descent.

Chip told us his father bought a penthouse apartment in his guandong village. "Why the penthouse?" Chip asked his father.

"It was the cheapest."

"What? Why?"

"The roof might leak."

Here in the US, we make sure the roof doesn't leak, so we can charge more for the penthouse. Over there, they just charge less. Their default assumption is that everyone wants everything cheaper (and they're not always wrong). It's a mindset born from a reality defined by scarcity.

I can't tell you how many times a vendor has tried to caution me not to do something because it would be "expensive". When I ask how much, it's astonishing how often the added expense is trivial, like $1 more per unit.

To me, it's $1 more per unit for a watch I plan to sell for $700, and that $1 in added cost is some little detail that will help justify the $700 price. But to them, it's $1 more per dial, or crown, or some other part which might cost them $3-$4 to produce. To them, that $1 isn't trivial, as it is to me. To them, it's a 25%-30% increase on the cost of that part, and it's outrageous. They see the trees, whereas I try to stay focused on the forest.

I've had to train my vendors to assume the opposite, like George from Seinfeld. I want them to always assume that whatever I ask for, I want it to be the highest quality possible. That's my default option. If there are three grades of PVD, I want the best grade. Just add it in to the total cost, and let me know the total figure when we get there. Don't tell me it's 50% more expensive than the worst grade, the one most commonly used, because it's the cheapest.

It's a mindset shift, but one that has consistently paid off for me and my business. They know they make more profit with a guy like me, who's willing to pay for top quality. When we get a bad batch of clasps, or cases, or whatever, they don't ship them to me, and hope I'll accept them. They know I won't. They re-do everything there. If something bad slips through, and we catch it here, whether it's limited to a few pieces, or widespread, they replace everything not up to snuff, without any argument. They know I won't have it, and they know they can afford to make it right.

My way is so much easier, in my opinion.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> I haven't made the WUS meetings, but I've had a couple smaller ones with members here. When we layover in London, we're in Kensington very near the High Street station. I'll make sure to tag you when things open up again. I'm only there for 24 hours, but it usually works out for a meet-up.


Do that, that'd be cool. 
Its not to far for me. I'm just outside London. I wouldn't drive into London, but transport links are very good so it's easy and quick for me to get there.

I'm always up for watch conversation, and looking at other people's watches.

Had a good experience yesterday afternoon. Took a watch into my local watch repair person. He was working on his own - covid - so it turns out was totally up for a chat.
He's a Rolex and Omega authorised repairer, and had worked in Switzerland for PP for 20 years !! I didn't know that about the PP before. 
He also had a brand new Rolesor Blue Sub on !! The new 41mm size !! It was actually very nice, the gold was very yellow and very bling.
He told me loads about how he sees the watch business from his side. And about how he never goes to watch meets because people are always asking for favours. It was fascinating.


----------



## Bird-Dog (Jan 22, 2021)

docvail said:


> A window into my world, based on my personal experience/observation...
> 
> *MOQ's *- are a big part of what's killing the industry, though I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about it.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean about the _"but everyone wants it cheaper"_ mindset. I was producing bicycles out of Taiwan at one point. Big boxes without a lot of fill. We were using 5-ply, but it was still giving us problems in shipping and we were eating the cost of damages.

So I asked our factory if they could add a layer of corrugated on each side. _"Yes, but that'll cost you a 90 cents more per bike"_ was the immediate answer that came back. No _"let me check with the box supplier"_ or _"I'll ask the boss"_. My rep knew the answer of the top of her head because she was already doing it for other customers. So, why didn't she tell me that was an option before this? And why didn't she warn me that it's something we'd need?

It wasn't like we're used to here in the US where a good sales rep might sit down with you and go over a veritable laundry list of options and upgrades (that increase their own bottom-line). Nope, more often than not you have to ask. But first you have to know what to ask! And if you don't know to ask, sometimes you find out the hard way!

That's a shame about the MOQ and quantity discount situations with watches, BTW. I had the same problem with bikes, at least at the level we were doing. But with other products I've done and am doing now, quantity-vs-price is a key negotiating factor.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> A window into my world, based on my personal experience/observation...
> 
> *MOQ's *- are a big part of what's killing the industry, though I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about it.
> 
> ...


That's facinating about the mind set. I've often thought they had a totally different understanding of quality and QC, and just the world.
That's why they think a great watch is a collection of great specs, for as cheap as possible. Even better if it looks like something famous.

No. A wonderful watch is a far more than a collection of specs (the trees). It's the quality of the whole. So that all the parts are carefully integrated and working beautifully together as one (a forest).

Learnt a new word, Quanxi. Thank you. Good relationships are true to good business practice all around the world too of course.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'd have been disappointed if there wasn't a lot to unpack here...



hwa said:


> doc, has anyone studied the value of warranty to purchase in affordable watches?


Not a formal study that I'm aware of, though I thought a lot about it, more than once.

We started out with a one-year warranty, then upped it to two, and now we guarantee the movement for six. So I made three different decisions at different times, based on my own reading of the tea-leaves, vis-a-vis how my customers would likely value the warranty, versus what the difference costs me, which you've alluded to...



hwa said:


> personally, any affordable three-hander is more likely a replacement than repair. nh35 is $30. 9015 is $90. an eta can be had for $115-200.
> 
> not a whole lot to go wrong that strictly requires warranty.


I'd mostly agree with most of that.

I'd argue there are measurable differences - differences which matter to the business - between the Japanese and Swiss movements. But even so, you are absolutely correct that the failure rates for the most commonly used movements from Switzerland and Japan are fairly low, as are the replacement costs for those movements. There's always an exception, but for the most part, a brand owner who sticks to the reliable options isn't in much danger of having his fingers burnt too badly.



hwa said:


> i look at your 6-year more as a reflection of quality of build and dependability of 9015 and other movements you use. it says, to me, buy with confidence. i suppose that's also because you have earned a reputation, but there aren't many microbrands where i'd have bet on 6-year staying power. yes, some have, but i wouldn't have bet on it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not sure if you're trying to lead me where you think I want to go, but it feels that way, since you know me well. Well enough to know I'll be your Huckleberry...

So...I see this on multiple levels.

Purely mathematical - I have plenty of data to look at. I know what to expect for failure rates and replacement costs with the movements we use. The truth is that the failure rates and replacement costs are quite low. And, as it happens, most failures we've seen tend to pop up soon after delivery, well within a year, or two years, much less six years.

If all your failures are going to happen within the first 2 months, what difference does it make if your warranty is one year, or two years, or six years, really?

Psychology - The difference is mostly one of perception, as you've said. It's psychological. It sends a signal to the market that we stand behind the product, so you can buy with confidence.

People tend to latch onto what I think of as "bite-sized" concepts. People have referenced Chris Ward's 60/60 guarantee ad nauseum, as being the examplar of a customer-friendly returns/warranty policy, and a reason to justify paying more for a CW watch.

And yet, I'm 100% certain the vast majority have never actually bothered to read it. Most seem oblivious to the more typical limitations and practical implications.

I.e, their 60 day returns policy requires the watch be unworn (just like every other brand's policy, including mine), and the 60 month guarantee on the movement requires you pay them to service it within 3-4 years, and it doesn't cover a whole lot of failures which are fairly common.





__





60|60 guarantee


Commerce Cloud Storefront Reference Architecture




www.christopherward.com





It's both pyschological, in how the market perceives it, and also mathematical, in how CW actually implements it. The market values it much higher than what it actually costs CW.

For whatever it's worth, our 6 year movement guarantee (which is longer, at 72 months, in case anyone can't math) only requires that watches we've sold with Swiss movements were serviced within the first 5 years, but not necessarily by us. We don't have any stipulations for the Japanese movements.









NTH Watches







nthwatches.com





Lastly, in my case, I view it as psychological warfare. While all my competitors are elbowing each other in a race to the bottom, by under-pricing, I threw down the gauntlet, issuing an open challenge to all my peers, to up their post-sale support game.

Understand - A few years back, I had a falling out with several peers, over a debate about whether or not microbrands should be providing post-warranty maintenance as a service. My general feeling was that most of my peers were struggling to simply deliver a good product on time, and had no business promising future service they had no means of providing.

What I mean, specifically - I know several brand owners in that discussion, who were thumping their chests, bragging about the amazing post-warranty support they would provide in the future, and saying that any "real microbrand" (exact words, not mine) would provide post-warranty support, by doing routine maintenance when required, and yet those same guys were literally incapable of providing the most basic in-warranty support on that day, in what was then the here and now.

Some of those guys have asked me where they can get their customers' watches serviced, IN WARRANTY. John Keil from Watch Gauge asked me if it was okay for him to send a competitor's watch to my watchmaker, Dan, because the brand owner literally had no solution in place for in-warranty support.

At least one of them has apparently since gone out of business.

Guys, c'mon. I'm not being a d1ck here. If you're struggling to deliver a good product, on time, and grow your sales to the point of making your business self-sustaining, and you literally have no reliable solution to provide quality post-sale support *during the warranty period,* you have NO FREAKING BUSINESS ON EARTH telling people you'll provide POST-warranty support. Are you nuts?

That doesn't even get into the impossible economics at play. To make that as short as possible - if you don't have an in-house watchmaker, you have to take your customer's watch to some other watchmaker. If customers know a routine maintenance costs $300, because that's what watchmakers (including the one you'll be going to) charge, how much are your customers willing to pay you to coordinate that service?

Answer - $300. Coincidentally, that's exactly what the watchmaker will charge you to provide that service - $300.

So, you're telling me, fellow brand owner, that you're willing to commit, here and now, to provide unlimited post-warranty, routine maintenance support, out into the future, for any customer who asks for it, even though you'll make absolutely no money whatsoever for the time you spend providing it, and even though, as of this moment, you don't even have that future solution in place to support the customers who might need in-warranty support, right now, today?

Even if you have an in-house watchmaker, as I do, there's a bandwidth issue. Even if Dan worked for me full time, I want him doing QC, and in-warranty work. If we sell 1000 watches per year, he doesn't have the time to service the 1,000 watches we sold 5 years ago. Even if I can charge more for the service than what I pay Dan to do it (and that would be a given), it's not the business we're in. This is fundamentally a manufacturing business, that sells a physical product, not a service business.

And, even if the in-house watchmaker is you, is that really where you should be spending your time, if your aspiration is to own a successful brand? Is that CEO-level thinking? Would the CEO of any successful brand - pick one, I don't care - stop doing strategically important things, things which will have a huge impact, to spend hours servicing a single customer's watch?

Tell your customer to take the watch to an independent watchmaker to get that routine maintenance done. Don't commit to delivering something you literally can't, and shouldn't, even if you could. Focus on perfecting the fundamentals of your existing business - product development, production management, quality control, robust support, promotion, etc.

I literally lost friends over that debate, and excused myself from a private group of brand owners. It became clear to me I simply didn't belong there. I was just spitting into the wind.

I'm not angry, really. I'm not. I want all my competitors to up their game (and many are doing just that), and grow successful businesses, in order to raise the entire panoply of microbrands in the market's estimation. I'm ready to kick the next guy who says, "micros won't be around to sell you a spare part in 5 years" right in the chest, except, I can't, because he's mostly right. Most micros are terribly run, and won't survive 5 years, much less decades, or a century.

So I threw down the gauntlet, as an open challenge to anyone with the cojones to pick it up. I've been here going on 8 years. We've got a 6 weeks returns policy, a 6 year movement guarantee, a same-day response service level expectation, a within-the-week turnaround expectation on repairs, an in-house watchmaker, a rack of shelves full of spare parts, etc, etc, etc.

And no, we don't do post-warranty routine maintenance. But seriously, why would you even ask, since every movement in every watch we've ever sold is cheaper to replace than it is to service, and over 90% of them (the Japanese ones) will likely run for decades without skipping a beat? Why even ask me that, numbnuts?

Oh, yours is the next brand that's going to light the world on fire, saving people money by cutting out the middle man, or you're yet another internet expert, telling me my business isn't built to last?

Come at me bro. No one ever made a cent betting against me.


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Recent acquisition and I'm really impressed with the quality and detail. Best crown action and rigidity I've ever tried. Running +3-4 SPD, love it! Waiting on this new leather strap. What does everyone think about divers on leather?


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

catsteeth said:


> Do that, that'd be cool.
> Its not to far for me. I'm just outside London. I wouldn't drive into London, but transport links are very good so it's easy and quick for me to get there.
> 
> I'm always up for watch conversation, and looking at other people's watches.


Would be good for sure.

A year (or more) ago dmjonez came over and met with myself, omegafanboy and ragl - and you'll remember the three of us from London GTGs.

I need to get back to that place for the sticky toffee pudding alone.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> yeah, like 8 years ago when the Ricarrdo was just a gleam in yer eye
> 
> some nonsense you just ignore
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know to what this post was responding, but I went ahead and liked it anyway.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I've always fancied the LIP Grande Ski. You'll have to take a short detour to the UK on your way home...... Oh hold on, we're completely covid locked down again...... damn.
> 
> The WUS meet ups we have twice a year in London are a total high light. Nice meeting lots of the forum regulars, putting faces to names. Made some good friends.
> Real shame we've not been able to do it lately.
> ...


Shame you couldn't join us for the soiree Page & Cooper threw whilst I was visiting in 2018.

Actually, I now suspect I actually paid for most of it, and P&C simply took credit.

At any rate, we had a good time, with several forum members (and regular posters here) in attendance.

I sincerely wish I could have met more WIS, especially fans of the brand, during that trip.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Chatoboy said:


> Recent acquisition and I'm really impressed with the quality. Waiting on this new leather strap. What does everyone think about divers on leather?
> View attachment 15760651
> View attachment 15760652


"Purists" will moan. But I like it. That brown matches the gilt, and the brown tint to the dial on the BB. Perhaps similar will work for you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> That's facinating about the mind set. I've often thought they had a totally different understanding of quality and QC, and just the world.
> That's why they think a great watch is a collection of great specs, for as cheap as possible. Even better if it looks like something famous.
> 
> No. A wonderful watch is a far more than a collection of specs (the trees). It's the quality of the whole. So that all the parts are carefully integrated and working beautifully together as one (a forest).
> ...


Sorry to tell you I mis-typed it, with a "Q", when it's actually a "G".


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Bradjhomes said:


> Would be good for sure.
> 
> A year (or more) ago dmjonez came over and met with myself, omegafanboy and ragl - and you'll remember the three of us from London GTGs.
> 
> I need to get back to that place for the sticky toffee pudding alone.


I know you and Omega of course. Is Ragl the guy who usually organised it ? If so I know who you mean but didn't catch that he was Ragl. Was his name Jeremy ? That's dredging my memory, so probably wrong.

I'm looking forward to it. I've been tarting pic's of a couple of new watches I've bought around on the forum. But I've kept a couple back too.
I'm sure we're all the same. After 2 years we'll all have a lot of interesting stuff to bring.


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

catsteeth said:


> I know you and Omega of course. Is Ragl the guy who usually organised it ? If so I know who you mean but didn't catch that he was Ragl. Was his name Jeremy ? That's dredging my memory, so probably wrong.
> 
> I'm looking forward to it. I've been tarting pic's of a couple of new watches I've bought around on the forum. But I've kept a couple back too.
> I'm we're all the same. After 2 years we'll all have a lot of interesting stuff to bring.


No, Jeremy is Stonehead887.

Ragl is Alan (middle in pic)
View attachment 15760705


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Sorry to tell you I mis-typed it, with a "Q", when it's actually a "G".


I had actually googled it and seen it was Guanxi. But thought you might be spelling it some special Chinese way. So didn't want to be rude and write Guanxi..... 🤦‍♂️🤣


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chatoboy said:


> Recent acquisition and I'm really impressed with the quality. Waiting on this new leather strap. What does everyone think about divers on leather?
> View attachment 15760651
> View attachment 15760652


I love leather straps, especially when they're steel bracelets.

Just kidding, obviously (or not, maybe, sometimes I question if I know what "obvious" really means).

Anyhoo - thanks for your purchase, glad you like it, let us know if it gives you any trouble, and otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I had actually googled it and seen it was Guanxi. But thought you might be spelling it some special Chinese way. So didn't want to be rude and write Guanxi..... 🤦‍♂️🤣


I was spelling it a special Chinese way, as it happens. I got an amazing deal on Q's, which have the same specs and components as G's, but cost me less.

One's just as good as the other, right?


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Shame you couldn't join us for the soiree Page & Cooper threw whilst I was visiting in 2018.
> 
> Actually, I now suspect I actually paid for most of it, and P&C simply took credit.
> 
> ...


I would have been up for that. I'm always game for convivial conversation, or talking ball*cks as is said here. In fact after what happened to P&C it's not surprising you ended up with the bill.... Typical...
I actually bought a Laco from them back in 2016. Had a perfectly fine experience.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Chatoboy said:


> Recent acquisition and I'm really impressed with the quality. Waiting on this new leather strap. What does everyone think about divers on leather?
> View attachment 15760651
> View attachment 15760652


In the winter I wear my AVG on brown leather. Love it. Summertime, it goes back on the bracelet.

ETA: That's a handsome strap. Who makes it?


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

docvail said:


> I love leather straps, especially when they're steel bracelets.
> 
> Just kidding, obviously (or not, maybe, sometimes I question if I know what "obvious" really means).
> 
> Anyhoo - thanks for your purchase, glad you like it, let us know if it gives you any trouble, and otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


Thank You very happy so far. I've been eyeing up the Blue Azores coming soon. Any chance a Black version is going to be available?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chatoboy said:


> Thank You very happy so far. I've been eyeing up the Blue Azores coming soon. Any chance a Black version is going to be available?











This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


2k1 Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That's two guys who expressed an interest in a black Azores.

We need to find 48 more, all willing to pay full-price, non-refundable pre-orders, and we'll make them as part of the next release, whenever that will be.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> That's two guys who expressed an interest in a black Azores.
> 
> We need to find 48 more, all willing to pay full-price, non-refundable pre-orders, and we'll make them as part of the next release, whenever that will be.


That's easy. Just run some adverts explaining how with with just one secret business trick, and cutting out the middle man. You've got the best bang for their buck, punching above their weight, cheaper by half than your nearest competitor, watches on the market. They have higher specs than even a watch 10 times the price.

They're guaranteed beyond their warranty, good investment opportunities, and re-sellable for more than when bought new.

See... Easy


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I would have been up for that. I'm always game for convivial conversation, or talking ball*cks as is said here. In fact after what happened to P&C it's not surprising you ended up with the bill.... Typical...
> I actually bought a Laco from them back in 2016. Had a perfectly fine experience.


I guess enough time's passed...

As a result of the combination of my own optimism, charitable nature (really!), and stupidity, I'd let P&C build up a larger-than-it-should-have-ever-gotten credit balance, when we decided our family vacation would be to England.

Since I was coming over, P&C was to make arrangements for a get-together, where they'd play the role of hosts, and I'd be the guest of honor. Our agreement was that we'd split the cost. Since they owed me money, my portion of the bill would be deducted from their credit balance, and they'd settle up with the venue.

Of course, I was never offered any sort of documentation, such as an estimate of costs, nor a copy of the bill, nor a receipt for payment. And, while it certainly would seem reasonable to ask for some documentation, I'd grown increasingly concerned I wouldn't recover all that I was owed, and didn't want to appear mistrustful, as I didn't think that would increase the amount I'd ultimately receive, and very likely would only diminish it.

The way things ended, with them still owing me something north of $6k, and it being undeniable that they'd been less than completely honest with me at times, I couldn't help but look back and think that I probably paid 100% of the costs for that affair, and maybe even more than that. Since I never saw any proof of what it cost, and since I have no idea what a party like that, in Mayfair, at the pub formerly owned by Guy Ritchie and Madonna would cost, they literally could have told me it was double what it actually was, just to amortize their debt to me that much more quickly.

So, at the very least, I sincerely hope all who attended enjoyed themselves, and only wish I'd drunk more.

PS/EDIT - I just looked it up in my records. I credited their account $1097.50, or about GBP 784, at today's exchange rate, giving the event an imputed value of ~$2200, or GBP $1600.

I think maybe 20-30 people were there. Seems like we spent over $70 per person to have an open bar and some light fare. I don't know. Maybe that's just the going rate in Mayfair, but it seems a bit pricey, here in the Philly Suburbs, where we're not exactly pikers when it comes to treating ourselves well.


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## blobtech (Jan 6, 2017)

docvail said:


> That's two guys who expressed an interest in a black Azores.
> 
> We need to find 48 more, all willing to pay full-price, non-refundable pre-orders, and we'll make them as part of the next release, whenever that will be.


Make that 3 please


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Coriolanus said:


> In the winter I wear my AVG on brown leather. Love it. Summertime, it goes back on the bracelet.
> 
> ETA: That's a handsome strap. Who makes it?


B&R Bands, Malt Padded Italian Vintage Leather. Have one on my Orient Star, great quality bands.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> Oh, and had a pint or two with the faces behind the user-names. That helps. BTW Andrew, we still need to do that again, once this whole plague thing blows over.
> 
> Headed to Paris tonight, anybody need anything? Maybe a LIP GMT, or a Yema?


cant wait, brother, cannot wait!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> Mate, not trying to talk you into leaving, but since you're here, you should know at least I, and I think many here, value clarity and logical consistency in our discussions.
> 
> As I've said to you elsewhere, you seem to have a strong sense of your own reasoning, despite some clear examples to the contrary, which I've tried to point out in subtle (read: polite) ways. The bold/underlined sections in your two posts above are just one more example of the contradictory, or at the very least illogical statements you've made, despite seeing yourself as quite logical.
> 
> ...


I started another thread on this very subject, emotion Vs Logic. Other than buying a $10 quartz watch, everything else involves emotion, and I'm the first to admit it. I consider my level of logic compared to emotion may be higher than average, but that's about it,

Regards the Submariner. From what I have read, the production cost is between $80 and $1250, I suspect it is somewhere in the middle.

Now, stop point scoring, it's a watch forum, not a boxing ring


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

Bradjhomes said:


> No, Jeremy is Stonehead887.
> 
> Ragl is Alan (middle in pic)
> View attachment 15760705


Not sure why the pic failed. Here it is:


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> That's easy. Just run some adverts explaining how with with just one secret business trick, and cutting out the middle man. You've got the best bang for their buck, punching above their weight, cheaper by half than your nearest competitor, watches on the market. They have higher specs than even a watch 10 times the price.
> 
> They're guaranteed beyond their warranty, good investment opportunities, and re-sellable for more than when bought new.
> 
> See... Easy


That's entirely true though. Yes, NTH watches are as good as watches costing several times more, but there are plenty of other brands that match the quality and spec, and some for less money.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> I started another thread on this very subject, emotion Vs Logic. Other than buying a $10 quartz watch, everything else involves emotion, and I'm the first to admit it. I consider my level of logic compared to emotion may be higher than average, but that's about it,
> 
> Regards the Submariner. From what I have read, the production cost is between $80 and $1250, I suspect it is somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Now, stop point scoring, it's a watch forum, not a boxing ring


Funny how often $80 seems to be the estimate of what it costs to produce a watch. It was a ridiculously low number when someone said it was my cost. It's even more ridiculous for the Rolex.

I'll stop point scoring as soon as you stop mentioning specs for the price...



INAMINUTE said:


> That's entirely true though. Yes, NTH watches are as good as watches costing several times more, but there are plenty of other brands that match the quality and spec, and some for less money.


Score!!!

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> Funny how often $80 seems to be the estimate of what it costs to produce a watch. It was a ridiculously low number when someone said it was my cost. It's even more ridiculous for the Rolex.
> 
> I'll stop point scoring as soon as you stop mentioning specs for thr price...
> 
> ...


I didn't suggest it costs $80, I merely pointed out they are the figures banded about. You would have a far greater idea than me.

So, you don't believe that specification should have a bearing on the cost. That's an interesting viewpoint !


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Bradjhomes said:


> Would be good for sure.
> 
> A year (or more) ago dmjonez came over and met with myself, omegafanboy and ragl - and you'll remember the three of us from London GTGs.
> 
> I need to get back to that place for the sticky toffee pudding alone.


Really looking forwards to the next time we can all meet up again, it has been far too long since the last one.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Shame you couldn't join us for the soiree Page & Cooper threw whilst I was visiting in 2018.
> 
> Actually, I now suspect I actually paid for most of it, and P&C simply took credit.
> 
> ...


We need to find another excuse for you to come to Blighty again soon, that P&C soiree was a lot of fun, and it was great to get to meet you in person finally.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> I didn't suggest it costs $80, I merely pointed out they are the figures banded about. You would have a far greater idea than me.
> 
> So, you don't believe that specification should have a bearing on the cost. That's an interesting viewpoint !


You're twisting my words around to suit your argument.

Of course specs have a bearing on the price. But let me suggest something completely ridiculous, something I don't mean sincerely, but am saying because it's the inevitable and most logical conclusion of that "specs for the money" argument.

Stop buying watches. Just buy all the parts, and assemble the watch yourself. Seriously, why are you paying someone a premium to put four parts together (movement, dial, hands, case)? Just buy the parts separately, and assemble it yourself. That's how you get the most specs for the least money.

I'll tell you why you don't.

The first problem you'll encounter is sourcing the parts you want to use. I buy dials, made to my spec, 50 at a time, cases built to my design 300-500 at a time, bracelets made to fit those cases 300 at a time, mixed-pair handsets, with lengths perfectly matched to my dials 50 at a time, etc.

When I buy in bulk, every component is at the very least of my choosing, if not made according to my design. Every component is made to fit that watch. They're not generic components.

When you go to source your parts, unless you're buying a ready-made "build your own watch kit", you'll quickly find that every component you choose will severely limit your choices for other components, and the time you'll spend scouring the internet can be unlimited.

Why are your choices so limited? The parts all need to fit together. You'll need to find a generic handset to fit your generic dial, which must also fit your generic case. Good luck finding a generic bracelet with curved end-links that will fit the case you bought separately.

But, let's say you can source all the parts, they'll all fit together, and you're happy with them. They're going to be more expensive than what I'm paying, and you won't be getting the quality I get. You're buying one piece per part, but I'm buying 50-500 at a time.

Not happy with the generic design? Want a custom dial made? You can do that, like the BSHT guys do. They get some beautiful gilt relief dials done, but last I saw, those dials were costing them over $100 per dial. And while their dials are nice, I think ours are at least incrementally better quality, and cost me a fraction of what they're paying.

Forget custom made hands. You won't find them, and if you do, they'll be stupidly expensive.

As long as you haven't worn it, you can return my watch if you get it and decide you just don't like it. Can you return any of those parts? For how long, and on what terms? What's that going to cost you, and how far back does it set your self-assembly project?

Next problem - let's say you find all the parts, they're all going to be compatible, and your aggregate costs are less than what you'd pay to just buy a watch. Do you have the requisite free time, knowledge, skill, tools, and patience to assemble them yourself? Most of us don't.

But, that shouldn't be a problem. You may get a watchmaker to do it for you. But what's he going to charge? And will he warranty it? Perhaps he'll warranty his assembly, and maybe the regulation of the movement, but he won't warranty any the parts, or the watch as a whole.

(Side-note - my local watchmaker, Peter Whittle, sells watches he assembles himself, using parts he sources online - typically hand-wound Unitas movements, and big, generic flieger cases, made in China, with stamped dials made to look guilloched, also made in China, on hand-tooled leather straps. They're beautiful, but they're also generic designs using generic components, and their prices start at $1200.)

Yes, you can always find some watch with a collection of specs and components selling for less, until you find that one watch which has the absolute lowest price for those specs/components. Have you found it yet? Was that the last watch you bought? If not, what's your reasoning for paying more for the watch you did buy?

Is it because you liked it better, or trusted the brand more, or believed it was better quality? Suddenly, specs aren't the only consideration, it seems...

Even if you did find the watch with the absolute lowest price for those specs, again, why did you waste your money, since you could have bought all those specs and components separately, and saved money by assembling the watch yourself?

There's so much more to the price we pay than just the specs and components.

When you buy my watch, you're buying the time we spent doing design and sourcing components, the time we spent doing QC, the time spent doing assembly, etc. You're paying for convenience - the convenience of not spending that time, and not having to purchase parts in bulk, the convenience of having a unique, rather than generic design.

You're buying peace of mind, knowing that we have tighter QC standards, and knowing that you can return if if you don't like it, and knowing we're here to help if anything goes wrong with it, and knowing the resale value will be strong.

When you constantly bang on about only valuing the specs, you're effectively saying no one on my team deserves to be compensated for their time, the time spent working on that design, the time spent sourcing components, the time spent doing QC, the time spent providing a higher level of support, etc

You're saying convenience, unique design, our returns policy, tighter QC, a better warranty, better quality, etc, just don't matter to you.

It's not only ridiculous, on its face, it's demonstrably untrue, based on your own statements and actions. You clearly _DO_ recognize the value of convenience, and design, and all the things that don't appear in a spec sheet.

So, harping on specs for the price is really a lie. It's a lie you tell yourself and others, to make your decisions seem smarter than others' decisions, and to argue with brand owners, like me, that our prices should be lower, because some other brand is selling a watch with the same specs for less, without realizing that other brand may be headed for extinction.

Bollocks to that.

The truth is our purchasing decisions are largely emotional, yet constrained by our budgets. We support those decisions using logical-sounding rationalization. I.e, you buy the watch you like best, within the limits of what you can justify spending, then you soothe yourself by saying it represents great bang for the buck.

In other words, you lie to yourself. Its bang for the buck may be great, but only relative to something else, which is an arbitrary, bias-confirming comparison you're making, so you can come to a pre-determined conclusion. Why not compare the value to a watch you assemble yourself, for less, instead of a different watch, which would have cost you more?

As an obvious and inevitable corollary to that lie, you are required to say that any watch that has the same specs but costs more is over-priced, or at the very least, isn't as good a value. Even if the specs aren't comparable, if it costs more, you'll say you don't need all the features that watch has, or that you don't want to pay for the company's marketing, blah, blah, blah.

This is really just a means to justify denying yourself something you might actually like more, but can't justify spending the money required to buy it. It's a reduction of the old, "I'd love a Rolex, but I'd never spend the money to buy one" line, as if a $300 watch is somehow not wasteful, in absolute terms, when a $30 watch will keep time just as well, if not better.

It's the same reasoning I use when I buy a used VW GTI instead of a new Porsche. I can't justify buying the new Porsche, and the VW is a huge value by comparison. So is a new or used Hyundai, in fact it's a better value than the VW, but I don't want to drive a Hyundai. So I'll argue that the VW is more reliable, holds its resale value better, blah, blah, blah.

It's only less wasteful _relatively_ - relative to something else. But relativity in avoiding wasteful spending can be taken to an absurd yet still entirely logical conclusion, as demonstrated in all of the above. Making specs for the money your only concern will unavoidably require you to make unwelcome compromises, in design, convenience, peace of mind, etc.

So, to you and everyone else I say, if bang-for-the-buck is all that matters, just buy the damned parts, and put it together yourself. Prove you're the smartest guy on the internet by not buying any more watches, because they're ALL overpriced, and NONE of them offer the best value, relative to self-assembly.

Please, just stop banging on about specs for the money. It's a transparently fallacious line of discussion.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> We need to find another excuse for you to come to Blighty again soon, that P&C soiree was a lot of fun, and it was great to get to meet you in person finally.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Indeed. If getting there didn't take so long and cost so much, I'd visit more often.

And it was great to finally meet you, @Ragl , and @LordBrettSinclair face to face, plus see @Bradjhomes again, and meet some of the other guys who were there, but don't frequent the forums.

It's funny how you can feel like you really know someone after taking so much online, and yet there's still no substitute for being in someone's company.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> You're twisting my words around to suit your argument.
> 
> Of course specs have a bearing on the price. But let me suggest something completely ridiculous, something I don't mean sincerely, but am saying because it's the inevitable and most logical conclusion of that "specs for the money" argument.
> 
> ...


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> You're twisting my words around to suit your argument.
> 
> Of course specs have a bearing on the price. But let me suggest something completely ridiculous, something I don't mean sincerely, but am saying because it's the inevitable and most logical conclusion of that "specs for the money" argument.
> 
> ...


Firstly, I didn't realise you paid your staff, so well done for that

I'm not sure why you went off on a rant, and not sure why you think I am a complete idiot. I am perfectly aware of the difference between gross and net profit, after all, it took up a great deal of time when I was working.

Value for money is a very broad term, it's not just the materials, it's not just the finish, or the time it takes to produce a given item, it's not even about the pleasure it gives or the unique design, it's also about comparisons. For example, one of your $700 watches is infinitely better than a Seiko equivalent, but far more people will buy a Seiko at the same price, even though it isn't as good. There are several reasons for this, but the one I am interested in is perception. Sometimes an item, any item, can be perceived to be better than it is because of branding. The business I worked for would take a £200 coat to one of our manufactures and have it copied, sorry I meant homaged, and sell it for a third of the price. Was the £200 coat any better, I can assure you it wasn't. Did we still sell any of the £200 coat, yeah, loads. I hope you can see where I am going with this. I know specification isn't everything, but I believe it makes up a greater part of the value than perhaps you do. that doesn't make me right, and it doesn't make you wrong. Value is very much a subjective subject, and I believe we should be more respectful of other peoples opinions. You especially


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> Firstly, I didn't realise you paid your staff, so well done for that


Is that a joke? Of course I pay the people who work for me.

Of greater concern to me, and my family, is that I pay myself. One of the big fallacies at work within this industry is "saving money by cutting out the middle-man", which is utter nonsense. What really happens is brand owners end up doing a lot of extra work, without being compensated for it, because they don't have the margins they need to hire help.

(Because they don't charge enough for the product.)



INAMINUTE said:


> I'm not sure why you went off on a rant, and not sure why you think I am a complete idiot. I am perfectly aware of the difference between gross and net profit, after all, it took up a great deal of time when I was working.


Any time I type more than two lines of text, someone, usually the person I'm responding to, or some random hater, calls it a rant.

You can't hear my tone. Don't assume I'm angry. I'm not. If anything, when I take the time to try to explain something with a longer post, I'm displaying enormous patience.

I certainly didn't say I think you're an idiot. Are you claiming to be a mind-reader? I didn't come anywhere close to saying anything which could be inferred as suggesting that. If anything, I gave you credit for having the intellect to understand what I was saying, and avoided dumbing things down for you.

Nor did I mention gross or net profit at all, though the difference is certainly one many brand owners, and much of the market (particularly those who whinge about specs for the price) don't seem to understand.



INAMINUTE said:


> Value for money is a very broad term, it's not just the materials, it's not just the finish, or the time it takes to produce a given item, it's not even about the pleasure it gives or the unique design, it's also about comparisons. For example, one of your $700 watches is infinitely better than a Seiko equivalent, but far more people will buy a Seiko at the same price, even though it isn't as good. There are several reasons for this, but the one I am interested in is perception. Sometimes an item, any item, can be perceived to be better than it is because of branding. The business I worked for would take a £200 coat to one of our manufactures and have it copied, sorry I meant homaged, and sell it for a third of the price. Was the £200 coat any better, I can assure you it wasn't. Did we still sell any of the £200 coat, yeah, loads. I hope you can see where I am going with this. I know specification isn't everything, but I believe it makes up a greater part of the value than perhaps you do. that doesn't make me right, and it doesn't make you wrong. Value is very much a subjective subject, and I believe we should be more respectful of other peoples opinions. You especially


Indeed, value for money is about comparisons. So I've played your game, that game of comparisons, with you.

You want to compare my watch to another offering similar specs and components for a lesser price. I want to compare that watch to one that's even cheaper, ideally, the watch that sells for the absolute lowest price, yet still has all the same specs, or, even better, just buying all the components separately, and assembling a watch yourself, with all those specs, which would seem to be the BEST value for money.

That, of course, is absurd. Of course you're not going to assemble every watch yourself, nor are you going to limit your purchases to whatever watch has the specs you want but is selling for the lowest price.

Why? Because design has a value. Quality has a value. Convenience has a value. Peace of mind has a value. Because enjoying a watch has nothing to do with regurgitating the spec sheet and the price, ad nauseum.

But, if that's the case, then value for money becomes an unnecessary and tedious debate. What reason is there to harp on it, once we admit we buy what we like because we enjoy it, regardless of value for money?

Yes, of course, as I've said many times, you can always find a watch like mine, but selling for less. But who cares? What of it? Are you saying I must devalue the work I and my team do, because you can't grasp its value?

I've boxed you in, sir. You must either admit the value for money discussion is pointless, or admit you're a miser, who doesn't mind underpaying the people who work to produce and support the products you buy, if they get paid at all.

Make all the comparisons you want. I'll find a comparison which, when made, will prove the fallacy of the value for money debate.

And no, I don't care what anyone's opinion is regarding the value for money my brand offers, unless that opinion comes from an actual customer, and until our actual customers start returning watches because they don't think the product lives up to the price.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Remembering why I left for so long. Dude is tedious. Chris, brother, don’t give him so much oxygen. 

Someone post a picture. I can’t because tapacrap hits 95 and then fails. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let me try to simplify and end this.

*None* of the watches we frequently discuss here represent good value, so long as we maintain the lie that we're buying time-telling tools, yet there are tools which tell better time, but cost far less.

A Heimdallr or San Martin, as cheap and as good as they may be, are terrible value compared to a $15 quartz Timex, and saying otherwise is a lie.

Almost all of the watches we discuss here are dubious values for the money.

Comparing one watch of dubious value to another which is also of dubious value, and claiming one is a "better" value is just a form of self-deception, and an attempt at turning the subjective opinion into the objective fact. Expecting others to indulge your self-deception with unqualified agreement, won't endear you to anyone.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif the funky bezel paired with the funky dial










Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> We need to find another excuse for you to come to Blighty again soon, that P&C soiree was a lot of fun, and it was great to get to meet you in person finally.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Why don't we create an award to encourage Doc to come over. "WUS Members Favourite Affordable Watch" for year so and so (WUSMFAW - it's catchy). 
We wouldn't fix the result at all, nope not at all. It wouldn't just be a subterfuge where we set up an awards ceremony, to make Doc come over to collect his expensive and tastefull prize.....
We could even pad it out with other watch catagories prizes, just to make it look legit. Sorry, I mean because it is totally legit. There's good odds he'd win anyway.

So what catagories should we have, and who can we beg to donate us a prize. (We could always ask Doc to sponsor us)....😉
He'd have forgotten about that whole P&C thing anyway.


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> Is that a joke? Of course I pay the people who work for me.
> 
> Of greater concern to me, and my family, is that I pay myself. One of the big fallacies at work within this industry is "saving money by cutting out the middle-man", which is utter nonsense. What really happens is brand owners end up doing a lot of extra work, without being compensated for it, because they don't have the margins they need to hire help.
> 
> ...


Of course I knew you were paying your staff, in the UK we call that joke. Although you don't realise it, we are closer in our thoughts than you may think. My only criticism of you, and I know you won't agree, is that your perception of VFM is from a brand owners perspective, and not the consumers. That doesn't mean I am saying your watches don't offer reasonable VFM, but I feel it should be something you should be aware of.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Bird-Dog said:


> I know what you mean about the _"but everyone wants it cheaper"_ mindset. I was producing bicycles out of Taiwan at one point. Big boxes without a lot of fill. We were using 5-ply, but it was still giving us problems in shipping and we were eating the cost of damages.


Trek has switched to "environmentally friendlier" packing - less plastic sheets, foam, and zip ties, more engineered paper, engineered cardboard, and tape or string. I imagine it adds to the cost of the bike, and like with a 5-ply box, totally invisible to the end user... unless the marketing dept. starts pushing it somehow.

Only higher-end bikes coming out of Taiwan now, China for middle of the road, and budget bikes are now being manufactured in Taiwan and Cambodia. It's interesting watching where manufacturing shifts.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Tgif with a new addition.
> View attachment 15747795
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk





docvail said:


> Bezel swap happens in 3...2...
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.





kpjimmy said:


> Tgif the funky bezel paired with the funky dial
> 
> View attachment 15761608
> 
> ...


Called it!!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> Of course I knew you were paying your staff, in the UK we call that joke. Although you don't realise it, we are closer in our thoughts than you may think. My only criticism of you, and I know you won't agree, is that your perception of VFM is from a brand owners perspective, and not the consumers. That doesn't mean I am saying your watches don't offer reasonable VFM, but I feel it should be something you should be aware of.


Feel free to stop making me aware of it, now that you're at least the hundredth guy to make me aware of it.

I'm aware of it, I assure you, and so long as my business runs well, I don't care a whit about it.

My criticism of you, and the >99 who came before you, is how narrowly you focus on it, to the fallacious and frequently self-contradictory exclusion of everything else, and your stubborn refusal to admit that how we value all these things - specs, convenience, design, peace of mind, etc, is arbitrary, entirely a matter of our own individual opinions, none of which are any more valid than anyone else's, which makes reminding everyone that you value specs for the price, and find one watch to be a better value than another, on that basis, quite tedious.

What now?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Called it!!!


Well because I ordered a bezel...not to difficult to assume that lol









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Can we just agree we shouldn't be talking about value for money, but about enjoyment for money? That way its immediately clear there is a subjective element to it, and we can just cut the crap that this watch is objectively better value than that one, because its just not completely (or completely not) objective in the first place.


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> Feel free to stop making me aware of it, now that you're at least the hundredth guy to make me aware of it.
> 
> I'm aware of it, I assure you, and so long as my business runs well, I don't care a whit about it.
> 
> ...


What you fail to realise is that everyone's perception of VFM is different. For me it may be 40% spec, 40% aesthetics, 5% brand, and the remainder just other stuff. There are enthusiasts on other forums where brand is 99% of everything. I accept that from your point of view the only opinion that matters is yours, as long as you keep selling watches, but that doesn't mean you should stop realising other people feel differently.

On a lighter note, but related, is a true story about a friend of mine. He was a very successful car salesman, and decided to buy himself a Rolex. He invested in Deep Sea that he managed to buy new for £9k. Five years later he sold it in a pretty poor state for £11k. With a tear in his eye he told me what a great watch it had been, because he never replaced the battery once. That's a story I will take to my grave


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

INAMINUTE said:


> Of course I knew you were paying your staff, in the UK we call that joke. Although you don't realise it, we are closer in our thoughts than you may think. My only criticism of you, and I know you won't agree, is that your perception of VFM is from a brand owners perspective, and not the consumers. That doesn't mean I am saying your watches don't offer reasonable VFM, but I feel it should be something you should be aware of.


I'm not sure how you can claim consumers don't see VFM in NTH models when they all sell out, eventually, at full retail.

_Some_ consumers see the VFM in NTH watches - enough to keep Doc in business, longer-term for a microbrand - but then again, some consumers claim San Martin doesn't offer decent VFM, because Steeldive "makes the same watch, cheaper."


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

kpjimmy said:


> Tgif the funky bezel paired with the funky dial
> 
> View attachment 15761608
> 
> ...


Damn... love the Commando bezel. Looks great on the Tikuna!


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> I'm not sure how you can claim consumers don't see VFM in NTH models when they all sell out, eventually, at full retail.
> 
> _Some_ consumers see the VFM in NTH watches - enough to keep Doc in business, longer-term for a microbrand - but then again, some consumers claim San Martin doesn't offer decent VFM, because Steeldive "makes the same watch, cheaper."


I would be interested to know why you believe I don't think NTH don't make reasonable value for money watches. It's true to say I don't think they are great value for money, but I don't believe that is the sector they are targeting. Regard your other comment. The Steeldive spec and finish isn't as good as san martin, and in many cases not even close. San martin are actually a very good example of a value for money brand, albeit they are solely homage watches. I consider Zelos possibly lead the pack


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> Feel free to stop making me aware of it, now that you're at least the hundredth guy to make me aware of it.
> 
> I'm aware of it, I assure you, and so long as my business runs well, I don't care a whit about it.
> 
> ...


On another point, I love the look of the Tikuna. If you send me one as a gift, I promise to take everything back and admit you are right in every respect about everything


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## fellini212 (Aug 20, 2020)

the _real _pandemic of the 21st century is last wordism


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

no it's not


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Came back for my weekly check in and my goodness I guess I should have popped a bag of popcorn first. Doc I couldn’t give some people the time you do. Although I do enjoy reading through your thought process. One of these days I’ll bring a wrist shot with me since this thread definitely needs more of those. Still waiting for those new subs!!

and on a side note this forum has, by far, the best implementation of the ignore feature I’ve ever seen on a forum.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Aside from all the fascinating banter in the last five pages, today I learned an essential life lesson. Never buy a Cabernet Sauvignon from Chile with a screw-on top in a supermarket in Paris because you’re too cheap to buy a wine opener.

You will regret your choice. 

But back to watches, I don’t regret any of my choices. They’re all fine. Wear what you like. Sorry I didn’t take a picture, but it’s pouring down rain here


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I build a lot of watches from parts i have gotten off the bay of e, a new eta 2824-2 movement used to cost $130 but these have gone up a bit since Swatch flexed their marketing muscle. A dial can range from $15 to $50, a set of hands $12 on average and a case from $80 to $180 depending on what you’re looking for as a build for quality and purpose. 

So the cheapest build ive made from parts was about $250. I’ve also built a few watches that cost me upwards of $900 in parts as they were watches i bought as projects to custom modify.

Parts are out there for the hobbyists who can spend the time searching for them.

In all my efforts though, i aint ever been able to bring one in at $80. 

My projects are single builds just for me and not to flip.

My point is if you are so inclined you can build a good decent time piece from parts but there is a lot of necessary tools, knowledge of the specs of the parts to make sure they will all work together, you need the miscellaneous extra parts such as movement holders, case tabs, gaskets and screws.

My own time in all of this is not counted nor has value. But this is a hobby to me. I can appreciate from my little workbench what it would take to scale up my output to 50 or 150 or more. Those people who take this on as a microbrand business I certainly give you tons of respect. I can also appreciate a well designed and built watch that sells for $500 or more for the value, but more for the understanding that there is no way i could build it myself for anywhere near that.

Im writing this after a long tiring day and a couple beers, so if I lost the train of thought I apologize in advance. I thought i had something more to say.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Well because I ordered a bezel...not to difficult to assume that lol
> View attachment 15761625
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


A little of Vail's finest work right there

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh...

I use the ignore feature sparingly. Partly because so few people truly deserve it, partly because curiosity so often gets the better of me, that I end up disabling it just to see what the person I'd meant to ignore has said.

Generally, the ignore criteria is pretty simple - first pass catches anyone who's both rude and obtuse. The two combined are an instant ignore for me. The second is anyone who might not be rude, but insists on being obtuse, wearing out a tired old argument, either because they're simply dim, or because they feel compelled to persist beyond all reason.

I really want everyone to feel welcome, and I try to be patient, hoping at some point the power of persuasion, if not the brute force of logic, will prevail, and we can move on.

Sadly, it so rarely does.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perhaps I ought to just periodically post some non-sequitur comment regarding the value for money my brand offers. Here goes...

If you're looking for the most specs / best components, for the lowest price, look elsewhere. NTH will never win that beauty contest.

If you believe that specs for the price are the only, or even the most import factor in determining value for the money, and it's all you ever want to consider or discuss, see above. Look elsewhere.

If I need to shout it from the mountaintop, I will - NTH does not offer the most specs for the price, and if you equate specs for the price to value for money, fine, we don't offer the best, nor would I argue even very good value for your money, and you will surely, probably quickly and easily, be able to find some other brand selling equivalent, if not better specs and components for a lower price.

I don't know how much more clear I can make it that I surrender, if that's the argument you want to make. You win that argument, sir, and you're probably not my customer now, nor should you ever be. But I nonetheless and most sincerely hope you find what will make you happy, and you buy it, so that we can all quit hearing about it.

That said, if you value design, quality, convenience, peace of mind, accessibility of the brand owner, and all the other intangibles you won't find on a spec sheet, and you don't mind if I and the other members of my team are fairly compensated for the work we do, and if you trust me to determine what the price of our products ought to be, based on what I know about this business, please come have a seat by our fire. We've got plenty of room.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

If you include the owner/makers engagement w/ customers, critics and the rest of us then NTH has the highest VFM on earth, maybe the entire solar system. More inspiration, perspiration, confuscation, mis-pronounciation (and mis-spelling). And you can set your watch by the frequency of foot-in-mouth disorder.

Bless you Doc, your timing is impeccable. All in good fun w/ all us eNTHers.....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Another window into my world...

There are so many things that suck up my time. No doubt they seem trivial, or might be dismissed as "just a cost of doing business", but whenever anyone wants to argue product pricing, I wonder if they realize some of the trials brand owners go through.

Here's an example - we outsource order fulfillment to a company that keeps our inventory in a warehouse, so that when you buy something from our website, they pick it from the shelf, pack it, and ship it to you. It's one of the many functions I've outsourced, in the quest for efficiency, and it's a decision I've never regretted.

That said, my warehouse, which is the best (and fourth) I've worked with, gave me some fits over the last couple weeks. Back in early February, I discovered they had 2 more pieces of the Tikuna than I thought. That's unusual, so I asked them to do a hard count, and confirm it, which they did. 

A couple weeks later, they moved the entire operation, including all their merchants' inventory, to a new, larger facility. At the same time, I got two orders for those 2 Tikunas. I submitted both to them, and after 3 days (when they typically ship within 24 hours), I saw that the orders were put into a "backorder status" - no Tikuna inventory.

I emailed them to find out what the hell was going on. Were those watches misplaced during the move? They said there must have been some mistake, back in early February, because they don't have the Tikunas. I had to cancel and refund one order, and have one of my retailers ship the other.

Today, I finally got around to comparing the counts on the inventory we sent them, which they confirmed on receipt, to the orders we shipped. And sure enough, we're missing 2 Tikunas. 

So I emailed them again, with an export of all the Tikuna orders they shipped, and a listing of all the Tikuna inventory shipments we sent them, and a request that they find the missing pieces.

Thankfully, stuff like this doesn't happen too often, but altogether, that was hours of my time, chasing down two measly watches. That's time I should have spent working on a new model, or preparing my taxes, two of the more pressing items on my agenda, or doing any number of more productive, strategic/executive level things.

Everyone who argues price seems to think this business is easy. Just order some watches from a factory, throw 'em up on a website or kickstarter, then sit back and count your money. But there are many weeks that go by, in which I literally spend all my time doing things that no one would ever envision me doing, things that are necessary, but don't add anything to the top or bottom line.

And with that, I think I'll log off, and go work on my taxes.


----------



## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Value..... ppssssshhhhhhh... I’m here for emotion.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Perhaps I ought to just periodically post some non-sequitur comment regarding the value for money my brand offers. Here goes...
> 
> If you're looking for the most specs / best components, for the lowest price, look elsewhere. NTH will never win that beauty contest.
> 
> ...


Amen.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Another window into my world...
> 
> There are so many things that suck up my time. No doubt they seem trivial, or might be dismissed as "just a cost of doing business", but whenever anyone wants to argue product pricing, I wonder if they realize some of the trials brand owners go through.
> 
> ...


Inventory management isn't a science, it's pure black art. You can have the most organised, fool proof, triple checked systems in place, but stuff still goes awol.

I often think one of the skills of management is to know the difference between inevitable cock ups and poor practice. Or God forbid, malicious practice.
You can't sweat the small stuff.
I'm totally with you. Like you say out sourcing to this inventory company sounds like a good decision.

Referring back to something you said earlier.
In hospitality I often have to take the most time, be the most patient, and test my ability to remain polite to it's absolute limits, and it's always with the most unrewarding customers. Be it genuine poor service - it usually isn't. Or more likely they've misunderstood something, or are after something free, or are just trouble makers.
Because it's those customers who can cause the most damage. In this day of bad reviews travelling the world, before good reviews have got out of bed, to miss quote Churchill.
You can't explain to all the people who've read the bad review the actual circumstances. That the customers has got it wrong. So you end up devoting hours of time to them.
I thought you might like the comparison, all business is the same underneath.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If you're trying to get into my pants, Churchill quotes will get you there, fella.


----------



## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Doc,

Any idea if/when new DevilRays will be available on the Nth site? All this talk of value for the money has made me realize how much I'd value spending my money on one, and I'd rather not have to buy one from the UK to the U.S. since the price is higher.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Here's today's watch:










Doc, any updates on when v2 subs are potentially coming or what might be in that lineup?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> Doc,
> 
> Any idea if/when new DevilRays will be available on the Nth site? All this talk of value for the money has made me realize how much I'd value spending my money on one, and I'd rather not have to buy one from the UK to the U.S. since the price is higher.


Who said we'll be making more DevilRays?

I could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

There are still some at IntoWatch in Korea. That's your best bet, for now (or if I do die by public transit).

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Here's today's watch:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mid/late summer, and not sure yet, but more BVB and Näcken Modern Blue aren't sucker bets.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Doc, will Keil not be selling the Azores Dark Rum?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

househalfman said:


> Doc, will Keil not be selling the Azores Dark Rum?











Antilles - Dark Rum


A different sort of diver. The NTH Tropics were inspired by the compressor-case diving watches which proliferated from the late '50's to mid '70's - marvels of engineering which established an iconic design language. Like we did with the Subs, we wanted to recreate - and update - their simple...




watchgauge.com





He will be, except he'll be calling it the Antilles Dark Rum.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

docvail said:


> Antilles - Dark Rum
> 
> 
> A different sort of diver. The NTH Tropics were inspired by the compressor-case diving watches which proliferated from the late '50's to mid '70's - marvels of engineering which established an iconic design language. Like we did with the Subs, we wanted to recreate - and update - their simple...
> ...




Thanks doc!


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

#6080


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I had an Antilles v1, the lume dial no date version. And of the v2 versions, the Cointreau color would very much do it for me.

But I found the 40mm Antilles just wore too large on my wrist. 7" wrist, plenty others would disageee, technically it fit just fine, but to my eyes... nope.

FWIW, Sinn 856 didn't do it for me, either. I think it's all about the actual dial size - love the way the 40mm Sub wears, but not so much all-dial/crystal, skiny bezel watch faces.

Even my Archimede Outdoor Protect 39 is pushing it, and I'm selling.a Bronze Pilot 39 for the same reason. 36-38mm is where I landed for all-dial watches.


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## Birchgrove (Nov 12, 2011)

Got this Barracuda Brown of Serious Watches yesterday. 
Can't believe I didn't pick this up earlier, it beats the living crap out of my Squale Root Beer I used to have, in terms of fit and finish.

Hats of to you Doc!










Skickat från min SM-G998B via Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Halfway home...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Birchgrove said:


> Got this Barracuda Brown of Serious Watches yesterday.
> Can't believe I didn't pick this up earlier, it beats the living crap out of my Squale Root Beer I used to have, in terms of fit and finish.
> 
> Hats of to you Doc!
> ...


Thanks for the kind words. Glad you like it. Welcome to the fam. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

I'll be over here cleaning the living crap off me...

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Look what I found !!

From GTG's of yore olde days gone by..... I was looking for something else and saw these. I thought people would interested. _If you recognise your watch, please holla.._

(Apologies for the terrible pictures, when you're in a sweet shop trying to taste as many of the scrumptious offerings as you can, quality sometimes slips).


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> Look what I found !!
> 
> From GTG's of yore olde days gone by..... I was looking for something else and saw these. I thought people would interested. _If you recognise your watch, please holla.._
> 
> ...


That there be ma' Scorpene Bleu.......

Those GTGs in London were totally terrific events, I do so hope that we can do it again - soon.

Cheerz,

Alan,


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ragl said:


> That there be ma' Scorpene Bleu.......
> 
> Those GTGs in London were totally terrific events, I do so hope that we can do it again - soon.
> 
> ...


👍
The Scorpenes are one of my favourites. The blue is gorgeous, but actually I think I slightly prefer the super tool-ish looking the black one. But I wouldn't kick either of them out of bed if I found them there in the morning 🙂
Very cool watch, beautiful colour and style.

I have missed the GTG's, they're always a little different each time, but always a lot of fun


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

GTG's......a distant memory from days gone by LOL


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

To get back to watches:


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Err... Where the h*ll did yesterday afternoons posts go ??
We were over half way down page 307..... (X-Files music)


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> GTG's......a distant memory from days gone by LOL


2019: GTG!
2020: GTFO!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

catsteeth said:


> Look what I found !!
> 
> From GTG's of yore olde days gone by..... I was looking for something else and saw these. I thought people would interested. _If you recognise your watch, please holla.._
> 
> ...


And the Santa Fe is mine. I am looking forward to getting out and meeting up again soon.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## fellini212 (Aug 20, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Err... Where the h*ll did yesterday afternoons posts go ??
> We were over half way down page 307..... (X-Files music)


The Invisible Hand of Moderation.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Err... Where the h*ll did yesterday afternoons posts go ??
> We were over half way down page 307..... (X-Files music)





fellini212 said:


> The Invisible Hand of Moderation.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Birchgrove said:


> Got this Barracuda Brown of Serious Watches yesterday.
> Can't believe I didn't pick this up earlier, it beats the living crap out of my Squale Root Beer I used to have, in terms of fit and finish.
> 
> Hats of to you Doc!
> ...


Yep. The Cuda-Brown may be the most underrated of all the subs. An excellent pick-up, wear it in good health!


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

fellini212 said:


> The Invisible Hand of Moderation.





TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15767241


I seem to remember being shocked at how rude the last comment posted was, which was from our friend. But it wasn't a moderator issue. It wasn't controversial, and I actually got the impression it was rather unthinking and unintentional.
Other than that Doc brought up an interesting conversation about upbringing and education, and I prattled a little bit about my time at college.
That's why initially I didn't think it was the powers on high reaching down into our modest little thread. 🤷‍♂️

I'm going to go read the rules again... I often find that when things have gone t*ts up, it's usually me ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It appears the posts related to education, and those about the everyone gets a trophy movement have been removed. I'm assuming because they read as being about politics. It also appears those mentioning religion were removed.

From the forum rules:

"7. Please limit off-topic posts, and mark them clearly as such ("OT" in the subject line, and/or the OT or coffee cup icon). Please do not initiate or participate in political or religious debates. Also, consider whether WatchUseek's Public Forum or The Café might be a more appropriate place for your post."









Oops! We ran into some problems.







www.watchuseek.com





Apologies to the moderation team.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> It appears the posts related to education, and those about the everyone gets a trophy movement have been removed. I'm assuming because they read as being about politics. It also appears those mentioning religion were removed.
> 
> From the forum rules:
> 
> ...


I've just read that exact thing. I mentioned religion, though in relation to philosophy as I studied it at college.
I think some indefinable redline was definitely crossed.

I'm might try and use the OT /coffee cup symbol more. But half my posts are pretty random anyway.

Yes. _Apologies_ to the moderaters from me too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I've just read that exact thing. I also mentioned religion, though in relation to philosophy as I studied it at college.
> I think some indefinable redline was definitely crossed.
> 
> I'm might try and use the OT /coffee cup symbol more. But half my posts are pretty random anyway.
> ...


Going back over the last 2 pages, it appears a lot more than that was removed. I guess there was more to the moderation than rule 7.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Wow, the same gnomes that steal my other sock obviously visited this thread during the night

WATCHES!


----------



## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I finally figured out a faster way to snap a photo and upload so here's my contribution this morning. I hope you all are headed into a great new week on this Monday morning!


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Going back over the last 2 pages, it appears a lot more than that was removed. I guess there was more to the moderation than rule 7.


 Wow. I didn't look at that, but now I have, you're right. Have to tread more lightly, and pick topics more carefully.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Wow. I didn't look at that, but now I have, you're right. Have to tread more lightly, and pick topics more carefully.


This thread is a collective stream-of-consciousness when it come to the topics discussed. Yet it's unusual that we get any moderator intervention.

When we do, it's almost always when a troll enters the room, or when things get too contentious for whatever reason.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> This thread is a collective stream-of-consciousness when it come to the topics discussed. Yet it's unusual that we get any moderator intervention.
> 
> When we do, it's almost always when a *troll* enters the room, or when things get too contentious for whatever reason.


Ahh.. The sun rises from behind the fog, the wise man begins his journey.

I talk like a badly translated I Ching sometimes..🧐
😉

We were way off topic in dodgy ground too -religion, politics. That's for sure.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> To get back to watches:


Ahh, a fellow Amphion buddy! Looks great!


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> This thread is a collective stream-of-consciousness when it come to the topics discussed. Yet it's unusual that we get any moderator intervention.
> 
> When we do, it's almost always when a troll enters the room, or when things get too contentious for whatever reason.


Im wondering if the reason is someone reported the posts in question to the mod team?


----------



## Birchgrove (Nov 12, 2011)

The Brown Cuda is still on wrist! 









Skickat från min SM-G998B via Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Don't think that conversation with our friend was crossing the line, but it was definitely gently pushing on the troll borders.

Guess the politics and religion nudged it over the edge and the mods just got rid of the entire conversation that lead up to it as well.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Wow. I didn't look at that, but now I have, you're right. Have to tread more lightly, and pick topics more carefully.


This thread is usually the most peaceful and friendly thread in WUS. I typically don't read much elsewhere, as I'm comfortable with my extremely diverse collection, but I love this thread and the friends I've made here. And as we mentioned, some of us have met personally and had a great time.

I regret responding to the previous stuff, and am happy it's gone now.

Peaceful and friendly. Ahhhhhhh


----------



## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> This thread is usually the most peaceful and friendly thread in WUS. I typically don't read much elsewhere, as I'm comfortable with my extremely diverse collection, but I love this thread and the friends I've made here. And as we mentioned, some of us have met personally and had a great time.
> 
> Peaceful and friendly. Ahhhhhhh


Me as well


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Im wondering if the reason is someone reported the posts in question to the mod team?


I often wonder if moderation comes due to someone's report, or all on its own.

But, the mods won't say, and we're not supposed to ask, or even discuss moderator actions, so we should probably move on.

11. Moderators' and the Administrator's decisions are final. If you are in doubt about a post, please contact a Moderator before you submit your post. Membership of the forum can be revoked by the forum administration without any reason being given. Moderators reserve the right to delete or edit any questionable posts at their discretion and without warning.

WatchUSeek reserves the right to remove, at any time, any or all of your mailing list privileges if WatchUSeek determines, at WatchUSeek's sole discretion, that you have violated our standards of behavior. *WatchUSeek moderation is not a topic for discussion*, decisions are made by those who created and run this forum, and are made in its best interest.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Wearing the Dolphin Ice today. I'm constantly tempted to pick up one of the black dial subs but I keep reminding myself that I should wait for my Atticus Icarus to come in before I scratch that black dial itch.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Wimads said:


> Don't think that conversation with our friend was crossing the line, but it was definitely gently pushing on the troll borders.
> 
> Guess the politics and religion nudged it over the edge and the mods just got rid of the entire conversation that lead up to it as well.





dmjonez said:


> This thread is usually the most peaceful and friendly thread in WUS. I typically don't read much elsewhere, as I'm comfortable with my extremely diverse collection, but I love this thread and the friends I've made here. And as we mentioned, some of us have met personally and had a great time.
> 
> I regret responding to the previous stuff, and am happy it's gone now.
> 
> Peaceful and friendly. Ahhhhhhh


☕
Probably right about the discrete erasure of our past. I'm very into current affairs, and talking about the deeper subjects. But beyond passing references, this isn't the place for them.
On the other thing. To be an under bridge dweller, you've got to do it intentionally, and to be honest that's not the impression I got. It was more cumulative misunderstanding, and frustration.

Time to move on me thinks.


docvail said:


> I often wonder if moderation comes due to someone's report, or all on its own.


I wondered about that (secretly because it's a taboo subject)...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

seatega said:


> View attachment 15767675
> 
> 
> Wearing the Dolphin Ice today. I'm constantly tempted to pick up one of the black dial subs but I keep reminding myself that I should wait for my Atticus Icarus to come in before I scratch that black dial itch.


Love those hands and indices. Very nice colour match with the dial and steel bezel too. ?


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Birchgrove said:


> The Brown Cuda is still on wrist!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The more I see that color, the more I dig it!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My favorite thing about the Dolphin is that the tip of the seconds hand has the same shape as the lume patch on the other hands, whereas the shape of the hour/minute hands is more rounded, to complement the shape of the primary indices at 3-6-9 and 12.


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> My favorite thing about the Dolphin is that the tip of the seconds hand has the same shape as the lume patch on the other hands, whereas the shape of the hour/minute hands is more rounded, to complement the shape of the primary indices at 3-6-9 and 12.


Doc, Trying to contact you, but WUS isn't allowing me to start a conversation with you, and I don't have an order number to make the NTH contact work. 
Mr.Boots


----------



## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> My favorite thing about the Dolphin is that the tip of the seconds hand has the same shape as the lume patch on the other hands, whereas the shape of the hour/minute hands is more rounded, to complement the shape of the primary indices at 3-6-9 and 12.


I love the handset, but my favorite part is the sunburst dial. Especially great is how in certain light the black minute markers combine with the radial lines to make it look like it goes from darker grey to bright silver in the middle. I've tried several times to capture it in a picture but it's really not something I can do justice to with my phone camera.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> My favorite thing about the Dolphin is that the tip of the seconds hand has the same shape as the lume patch on the other hands, whereas the shape of the hour/minute hands is more rounded, to complement the shape of the primary indices at 3-6-9 and 12.


Looks pretty well matching indeed, something I didn't notice before.

You often say you pick hands from a catalog, because custom designing hands isn't worth the trouble. So did you design the markers to match the hands? Or you first designed the dial and luck just so had it you found the perfect matching hands available in the catalog?

I mean it doesn't really matter either way, just curious about the process.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Boots said:


> Doc, Trying to contact you, but WUS isn't allowing me to start a conversation with you, and I don't have an order number to make the NTH contact work.
> Mr.Boots


Any email to customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com will do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> I love the handset, but my favorite part is the sunburst dial. Especially great is how in certain light the black minute markers combine with the radial lines to make it look like it goes from darker grey to bright silver in the middle. I've tried several times to capture it in a picture but it's really not something I can do justice to with my phone camera.


I may be misunderstanding you, but the fact is the dial does go from light in the center to dark at the perimeter, intentionally. It's a combination of sunray texture (radiating outward from center) and color-fade (lighter to darker as you move outward).


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> Any email to customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com will do.


email sent.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> Looks pretty well matching indeed, something I didn't notice before.
> 
> You often say you pick hands from a catalog, because custom designing hands isn't worth the trouble. So did you design the markers to match the hands? Or you first designed the dial and luck just so had it you found the perfect matching hands available in the catalog?
> 
> I mean it doesn't really matter either way, just curious about the process.


I'm not 100% certain I'm remembering this right, but the way I remember it, I told Aaron what I wanted for the dial markers, then I went looking for a handset to go with the dial.


----------



## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I may be misunderstanding you, but the fact is the dial does go from light in the center to dark at the perimeter, intentionally. It's a combination of sunray texture (radiating outward from center) and color-fade (lighter to darker as you move outward).


No you're exactly right about what I mean. I couldn't tell if the color fade was actually there or not because it's a very well done transition, and I thought it might be my eyes tricking me from the black minute markers. You guys really nailed the execution on this whole watch.


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Birchgrove said:


> The Brown Cuda is still on wrist!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Darn it... I have to sell a couple of peices to make room. Looks great, sir!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The brown Barracuda is underrated, IMO.


----------



## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

Since we're on a Brown Cuda kick... here's mine with a new cousin.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Eyo










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

theswervyn said:


> Since we're on a Brown Cuda kick... here's mine with a new cousin.
> View attachment 15768058


The guys from Nodus are killing it. I love what they did with the crown on that one. There are so many little things about what they're doing that you may not notice at first, but really work well together, and show the thought they're putting into their designs.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

theswervyn said:


> Since we're on a Brown Cuda kick... here's mine with a new cousin.
> View attachment 15768058


Bonus points that they are set to EXACTLY the same time...


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Eyo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bro, when did you get this? It's beautiful!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> Bro, when did you get this? It's beautiful!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks  
Just got it.
Need to have at least 1 NTH in my small collection.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

theswervyn said:


> Since we're on a Brown Cuda kick... here's mine with a new cousin.
> View attachment 15768058





docvail said:


> The guys from Nodus are killing it. I love what they did with the crown on that one. There are so many little things about what they're doing that you may not notice at first, but really work well together, and show the thought they're putting into their designs.


Color matched day & date wheels is already a WIS flex. But the print on the date isn't just black, is it? Looks burgundy to match those recessed markers at 3-6-9 (and Nodus logo at 12). Extremely interesting watch. An almost overwhelming number of details. Such a contrast next to the simple goodness of the Barracuda.

Great photo, by the way. Cool duo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Color matched day & date wheels is already a WIS flex. But the print on the date isn't just black, is it? Looks burgundy to match those recessed markers at 3-6-9 (and Nodus logo at 12). Extremely interesting watch. An almost overwhelming number of details. Such a contrast next to the simple goodness of the Barracuda.
> 
> Great photo, by the way. Cool duo.


The DATE wheel is printed in burgundy, but the DAY wheel is printed with black, to match the rest of the inner dial text.

They definitely pulled out all the stops on that one.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tikuna Tuesday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## theswervyn (Aug 17, 2015)

docvail said:


> The DATE wheel is printed in burgundy, but the DAY wheel is printed with black, to match the rest of the inner dial text.
> 
> They definitely pulled out all the stops on that one.


They really did. It's definitely one of those designs that's so hard to fully appreciate through a picture. All the details really do come together to create something special. One thing I really dig that I didn't think I would so much is the beveled edge on the crystal. Helps focus in on the dial and also reflects light in a cool way when you go to check the time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not looking to re-ignite the "value for money" debate, yet I can't help but love the fact that this exists...

It's a "build your own watch kit", from DIY Watch Club, which is now available from Watch Gauge -









DIY Watchmaking Kits


"Once you've assembled your own watch, you'll never look at a watch the same way again." Watchmaking kit with complete tools and video instructions Bring home your watchmaking craft! The Watchmaking Kit includes all the tools you need to assemble a basic mechanical watch, and put them all in...




watchgauge.com





Specs look pretty decent, and they're not bad looking watches. Seems like good value, too, at $295 (marked down from $350), if you're into assembling your own.

41mm case with 22mm lugs might make it hard to find an aftermarket bracelet to fit, but there are lots of 22mm straps out there.

It makes for an interesting comparison with the Nodus Sector Pilot posted above, which sells for $425, as they have the same basic NH3x movement, and similar specs. So what does the extra $130 buy you, if you get the Nodus?

Well, for starters, a decent fitted bracelet, easily worth $100-$120 by itself.

Also, a more complex case / crown design, more complex dial, sapphire instead of mineral crystal, reprinted date and day wheels, someone else doing the assembly, QC, and regulation, and a 2 year warranty.

Granted, the DIY has 50m more WR and a lumed bezel going for it, both of which are nice to have. But upgrading to domed sapphire will add $25 to the kit, or going with a "top-hat" double-domed sapphire (like what the Nodus has) will add $48, bringing the kit's price to $343.

If all you look at is the basic specs - NH35 movement, 20 ATM WR - the basic DIY kit looks like a steal at under $300. Depending on if and how you value all the little extras you get with the Nodus, the Nodus might be viewed as being the better choice.

If we want to compare the $425 Nodus to the NTH DevilRay, at $525, what does the extra $100 get you (since I get people telling me the DevilRay costs too much)?

Well, 350m more WR, a more complex and fully-articulated 3-link bracelet with combination of brushed and polished finish, an even more complex case design with recessed bezel, an additional layer of AR on the crystal, Viton seals, a 6 year guarantee on the movement, a fully-lumed DLC bezel, a choice of with-date or no-date, and a deeply engraved case back.

I think an argument can be made that they're all good values, if you appreciate all that you're getting (or not getting, as the case may be).

At the end of the day, it's really all about which you like best. The rest is just debate fodder.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Thanks
> Just got it.
> Need to have at least 1 NTH in my small collection.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yeah since I took your last one lol!


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Thanks
> Just got it.
> Need to have at least 1 NTH in my small collection.
> 
> ...


I've been taking a long hard look at those. It's an NTH which means quality. It's Cali with cool matching cathedral hands. And it's got sunburst ~burgundy dial with yellow highlights. All stuff that I really like. These are literally the knees of the bees.

Serious Watches have them at €740 for the no date bor version. Which is a pretty fair price. Being UK I'd have to pay +20% import; + P&P, + handling (since Jan 1st Exit from EU) which takes it to well over £1000 in UK money. That's too rich for me unfortunately.
I'm constantly looking at eBay for NTH's in styles I like, but when these start cycling through, I'm going for one. (Funds being available at the time of course).

Anywho. Great watch, wear in health ?


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> Not looking to re-ignite the "value for money" debate, yet I can't help but love the fact that this exists...
> 
> It's a "build your own watch kit", from DIY Watch Club, which is now available from Watch Gauge -
> 
> ...


You also get the peace of mind that the WR is actually accurate. I'm not a watch maker and I wouldn't trust a watch I put together anywhere need water, even if I was pretty confident that I followed the directions exactly.

Honestly I think people get way too hung up on movements in general, and people over-association movements like the NH35/6/8 with "budget" watches even when watches like the DevilRay have such obvious quality differences in every other aspect than other watches that use it.

I'm partial to the Miyota 9 series over the NH3s but only because I have skinny wrists and watches with the Miyota tend to be slimmer, so they fit me better.


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## fellini212 (Aug 20, 2020)

Man, that DevilRay case _by itself _is such a beautiful sculptural piece.

Quite a thing that it has a wristwatch in it, too.


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Really liking this on leather. Nice and light, I forget it's even there and I think it really shows off the beautiful lugs.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Chatoboy said:


> Really liking this on leather. Nice and light, I forget it's there and I think it really shows off the beautiful lugs.
> View attachment 15770244












I kid, I kid.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> I've been taking a long hard look at those. It's an NTH which means quality. It's Cali with cool matching cathedral hands. And it's got sunburst ~burgundy dial with yellow highlights. All stuff that I really like. These are literally the knees of the bees.
> 
> Serious Watches have them at €740 for the no date bor version. Which is a pretty fair price. Being UK I'd have to pay +20% import; + P&P, + handling (since Jan 1st Exit from EU) which takes it to well over £1000 in UK money. That's too rich for me unfortunately.
> I'm constantly looking at eBay for NTH's in styles I like, but when these start cycling through, I'm going for one. (Funds being available at the time of course).
> ...


There is one on sale here from a great member. 
See if he minds shipping it to you. 
I shipped a bunch of watches to UK and shipping 6-10 days usps international priority is $40 since these fit in a flat rate envelope.
As far as customs go, PM me and I ll give you some pointers 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I've been taking a long hard look at those. It's an NTH which means quality. It's Cali with cool matching cathedral hands. And it's got sunburst ~burgundy dial with yellow highlights. All stuff that I really like. These are literally the knees of the bees.
> 
> Serious Watches have them at €740 for the no date bor version. Which is a pretty fair price. Being UK I'd have to pay +20% import; + P&P, + handling (since Jan 1st Exit from EU) which takes it to well over £1000 in UK money. That's too rich for me unfortunately.
> I'm constantly looking at eBay for NTH's in styles I like, but when these start cycling through, I'm going for one. (Funds being available at the time of course).
> ...


Serious will drop the VAT for you, if you're in the UK.

So it's actually €610.74, or 523.22 sterling.

You'd get whacked for 20% VAT on import, but Serious ships free, so there'll be no additional charge for that, nor an additional 20% on what the shipping cost would have been. You should land at GBP ~628 with VAT, plus maybe some customs brokerage fee UPS will toss in. I can't imagine it will cost you much more than GBP 640.

If that doesn't do it for you, drop a line to Watch Gecko, and ask them to stock it. I still have 1 in my own inventory, and I'm sure I could get them to take a few other pieces, if they were to place an order, to make it worth their trouble.

Just sayin'...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> You also get the peace of mind that the WR is actually accurate. I'm not a watch maker and I wouldn't trust a watch I put together anywhere need water, even if I was pretty confident that I followed the directions exactly.
> 
> Honestly I think people get way too hung up on movements in general, and people over-association movements like the NH35/6/8 with "budget" watches even when watches like the DevilRay have such obvious quality differences in every other aspect than other watches that use it.
> 
> I'm partial to the Miyota 9 series over the NH3s but only because I have skinny wrists and watches with the Miyota tend to be slimmer, so they fit me better.


There's a reason we test the cases before assembly, then test the watches again AFTER assembly.

That said, if you don't have a pressure-tester (and why the hell would you?), any watchmaker or dive shop could handle it for you, if, like me, you'd be paranoid that you had a pinched or broken seal somewhere in the assembly.

So long as you were careful, and the case back was on tight, I wouldn't be too fearful.

It would be something if they included a pressure-tester, though. The one I bought for Dan's shop cost me $1200. Stick that in your DIY kit, amirite?


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> There's a reason we test the cases before assembly, then test the watches again AFTER assembly.
> 
> That said, if you don't have a pressure-tester (and why the hell would you?), any watchmaker or dive shop could handle it for you, if, like me, you'd be paranoid that you had a pinched or broken seal somewhere in the assembly.
> 
> ...


This is a fantastically interesting video I've pinched from the BSH guys. Apologies if you've already seen it.
They test a 100m Citizen and 300m Dugena, both divers. They both easily manage over a kilometer. But what was eye opening was that it wasn't the sapphire giving out first, it was the case back concaving and hindering the movement. (A good argument for Seikos mono-block).

*EDIT*: sorry didn't realise I'd fluffed pasting the video. Here it is 🤦‍♂️


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Serious will drop the VAT for you, if you're in the UK.
> 
> So it's actually €610.74, or 523.22 sterling.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc. I'll look at that.


DuckaDiesel said:


> There is one on sale here from a great member.
> See if he minds shipping it to you.
> I shipped a bunch of watches to UK and shipping 6-10 days usps international priority is $40 since these fit in a flat rate envelope.
> As far as customs go, PM me and I ll give you some pointers
> ...


I'll look at that thank you. A lot of Conus don't mind shipping to the UK.
I've heard of Stackry for shipping. But I'd always want to insure my purchases, (which means declaring value and then being clobbered for duty). But I don't think you can insure with Stackry.
If you know of a better way please let me know, or pm me.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

That Red Nazario is nice and all, but this blue is just too dang pretty.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> That Red Nazario is nice and all, but this blue is just too dang pretty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Captain America 

Flash 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Not looking to re-ignite the "value for money" debate, yet I can't help but love the fact that this exists...
> 
> It's a "build your own watch kit", from DIY Watch Club, which is now available from Watch Gauge -
> 
> ...


The bang for buck starts to really go down too, once you've bent a handset or two, and scratched a dial, then twisted the caseback wrong and pinched a gasket...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We should hold an unofficial Best NTH Modded Sub contest. Winner enjoys unlimited bragging rights on the innerwebz.

Post a pic of your modded NTH Sub (or Sub innards in some BS case, or Smiths Everest in a Subs case - looking at you, @hwa , for both of those).

The mod that gets the most likes in a single post wins.

Also entitled to bragging rights:

- Most heavily modded Sub (my money's on bead-blasted and rounded lugs, though @dmjonez 's Frankenproto field-pilot mod is a strong contender) - must include a list of the mods to the watch.

- Most modded Subs owned (my money's on @kpjimmy) - must include a group pic, or collage (looking at you, again, Jimmy)

- Looks stock but isn't mod - the mod most people say looks like it could have/should have come that way right from NTH.

- Drives Chris up the wall just looking at it mod - @Omegafanboy, @hwa , @jelliottz , show us what you got, and tell us why it drives Chris nuts. Where's the guy who replaced his case-back with a transparent one, and the guy who fitted a super-dome crystal (might be the same guy)? @sevens ?

- What were you thinking mod - I doubt anyone can beat the crown filed down to have a flat spot, though anyone who pried the bezel off their case gets honorable mention.

This is either going to be awesome, or stupid, and I'll hate that I even thought of it.

Even money on stupid.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> We should hold an unofficial Best NTH Modded Sub contest. Winner enjoys unlimited bragging rights on the innerwebz.
> 
> Post a pic of your modded NTH Sub (or Sub innards in some BS case, or Smiths Everest in a Subs case - looking at you, @hwa , for both of those).
> 
> ...


Great idea, looking forward to the results!

Even money on stupid made me literally laugh out loud


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Great idea, looking forward to the results!
> 
> Even money on stupid made me literally laugh out loud


I'll be here all week!

Remember to tip your servers!


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## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

I'll jump in first. May I present the NTH Cudamatic!








NTH Barracuda Vintage Black
Titus Calypsomatic hands resized and lumed to match
Black cerakote bezel (I pried off the bezel )
Seiko SKX031 insert
Lugs drilled for fat 2mm spring bars (case mod )
Vintage stretch rivet bracelet (Chris annoyance )
Looks stock but isn't (another )









Here's the inspiration for the mods: Titus Calypsomatic ref 7085









And here's the Cudamatic with another watch Chris references above. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

And some honorable mentions:

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Technically it's only 4 NTH subs I have replaced bezels on. I'm not touching the Red Ronin and the BvB lol

















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Technically it's only 4 NTH subs I have replaced bezels on. I'm not touching the Red Ronin and the BvB lol
> 
> View attachment 15770826
> View attachment 15770827
> ...


Heyyyyyyy any chance you could post a pic of the Ghost with the stainless insert from the Polar? That's a combo I'm interested in...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...yesterday, I finally got the first 40 pieces of the 22mm fitted rubber straps in, for the 2K1's. I'm still waiting on the 20mm straps I ordered at the same time, on 21 January. That was about 8 weeks ago. I know we had Chinese New Year in there, but still...8 weeks seems like a long time for some rubber straps they told me they had "in stock".

I got three colors on the 22's - 10 orange, 20 black, and 10 black with a blue stripe, because they didn't have a solid blue strap when I placed my order. I did ask, because I really wanted a solid blue, which we were able to get in the 20mm size, but the supplier for the 22's didn't have one.

But now, apparently they do have a solid blue strap, as of a few days ago, when they sent me a pic of it. And I now realize 40 straps, total, is not nearly enough.

The 22's are a bit more expensive than the 20's, and not like 10% more, which would sort of make sense, but closer to 20% more, which doesn't. I don't want to price the 22's that much higher than the 20's, so I'm trying to get the vendor that sells the 20's to start making the 22's, but so far, they're unmoved by my pleading, and instead just tried to sell me a completely different strap.

So, I wanted to ask my 22mm supplier if they can come down in price, at all, before I place another order.

Exact convo I had with my 22mm strap vendor tonight (actually, this is happening now, so what you're seeing is real-time reporting)...

ME: Can I get a better price if I order more?
THEM: How many more do you want?
ME: How many more do I need to order to get a better price? 150 total?

That's not a big strap order, but bear in mind, it's more than triple my original order size of 40, and this vendor says these straps are "in stock", so my MOQ per strap on the 22's is just 10 pieces per size/color, whereas with every other vendor, it's 300 per size/color, which is how many I had to order of the 20's, times 2, because I got 300 in black, and 300 in blue.

THEM: If you order 150 per size, per color, we can get you a better price [plus something about the quality of the rubber, and the tooling for the curved end...bottom line is no better price for me.]
ME: ... uhm...I was just thinking about 150 total, between the 3 colors, not 150 each.
THEM: For 150 total, we can come down $0.10 per strap.

*****. Don't hurt yourself tumbling down so far. You sure the factory won't go belly-up doing me that much of a solid?

THEM: Do you use them for your own watches?

Seriously? Who's buying 40 straps at a time, much less 150, in just 3 colors, for their own collection?

ME: No. They're for the watches we make [link to website]. Let me figure out how many more I need for each color...

ME: Tell me about that new blue version you showed me. What Pantone color is it [attaching the same picture they sent me a few days ago, of the blue strap they have now, that they didn't have before]?
THEM: It's navy blue.
ME: What Pantone color is it?
THEM: We don't have a specific number. It's dark blue, similar to the navy.
ME: Mmmmmkay...fine, gimme another 30 orange, 50 of that new blue, and 80 of the black. 160 total. I want the same buckle as before, with my logo engraved on it [which is different than their standard buckle, which I hate].
THEM: Okay.
ME: ....
THEM: ....
ME: Please send me an invoice, and I'll get it paid right away. How long will the straps take?
THEM: Please give me 10 minutes [for the order invoice]. About 15 days [for the straps].

Seriously? 15 days? Don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining. It took 8 weeks so far, for the first 40. Even with Chinese New Year taken into account, it's been at least 4 weeks since I placed my original order.

And don't forget, these straps are "in-stock". All they need to do is order the buckles, have them engraved, and attach them to the straps. What the hell?

THEM: Same buckle as last time [along with a screen grab quote of the breakdown of pieces per color I just provided, with the 80 black underlined for some reason, and a picture showing their standard buckle, which is definitely not the same as the one I got last time]?
ME: Uhm...we want the same buckle as last time, but that's not it in that picture [off to find the image they sent me back in January, of the buckle we used]. It's this one [attaching pic of the buckle we used].
ME: Unless your buckle supplier has this one [different pic, different buckle].

Side note - their buckle supplier didn't have my first choice of buckle in stock back in January, so I had to choose a slightly different one. Now I'm asking if the supplier might have the one I actually wanted in stock again.

THEM: This one is the black with blue stripe? Or total blue, no stripe? [Screen shot of an invoice, showing my order, but instead of 50 pieces blue, that I asked for, and we just got done talking about, there's 50 black with blue stripe.]
THEM: Last time buckle is okay.

So I guess that buckle we used last time, which was my second choice, is now the only choice I get for buckles. No need to call their supplier to see if they have the one I originally wanted in stock. So much simpler this way.

ME: I don't want any with a stripe. I only ordered the black with blue stripe because you didn't have any that were solid blue before. So, it's 30 orange. 50 solid blue. 80 black. 0 of the black with blue stripe.
THEM: I see.

Aaaaannnddddd...15 minutes later, I have the invoice.

Gotta go. Need to pay an invoice.

Anyone want to place bets on how many days it'll take for me to get these straps? Ahma set the over-under at 21...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> So...yesterday, I finally got the first 40 pieces of the 22mm fitted rubber straps in, for the 2K1's. I'm still waiting on the 20mm straps I ordered at the same time, on 21 January. That was about 8 weeks ago. I know we had Chinese New Year in there, but still...8 weeks seems like a long time for some rubber straps they told me they had "in stock".
> 
> I got three colors on the 22's - 10 orange, 20 black, and 10 black with a blue stripe, because they didn't have a solid blue strap when I placed my order. I did ask, because I really wanted a solid blue, which we were able to get in the 20mm size, but the supplier for the 22's didn't have one.
> 
> ...


My money is on you receiving some straps with stripes


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> My money is on you receiving some straps with stripes


I just legit LOL'd.

You owe me a new laptop. I just spit oreos and milk all over mine.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Oreos sound delicious right now. Damn this thread.

I am prepared to follow through on my Amphion wait list spot to do my part for the laptop!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

My heavily modded creation is a former Lew and Huey Blue Dialed Orthos custom build with a factory ETA 2824-2 Top Grade (adjusted to 5 positions) and decorated).
This build will start with a Black PVD 316L Stainless Steel case as used by Nauticfish H3 Gen Diver, and H3 Tactical Commander Diver. It is a 43mm case, 14mm high, 22mm lugs, with a display back rated to 20ATM (200M - 660Ft). The bezel is a 120 click unidirectional. The crystal is scratch resistant sapphire-glass with an anti-reflective coating. As the case was originally designed for tritium hands, there is quite a bit of room on the dome area of the case.
The dial face is from the Lew and Huey Orthos blue and the hands are a custom set of Seiko mod hands, with a yellow second hand.
The ETA 2824-2 is decorated in elaborate with rhodium Perlage and blue screws, Top Grade and was regulated within 3 secs a day average 4 positions.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> My heavily modded creation is a former Lew and Huey Blue Dialed Orthos custom build with a factory ETA 2824-2 Top Grade (adjusted to 5 positions) and decorated).
> This build will start with a Black PVD 316L Stainless Steel case as used by Nauticfish H3 Gen Diver, and H3 Tactical Commander Diver. It is a 43mm case, 14mm high, 22mm lugs, with a display back rated to 20ATM (200M - 660Ft). The bezel is a 120 click unidirectional. The crystal is scratch resistant sapphire-glass with an anti-reflective coating. As the case was originally designed for tritium hands, there is quite a bit of room on the dome area of the case.
> The dial face is from the Lew and Huey Orthos blue and the hands are a custom set of Seiko mod hands, with a yellow second hand.
> The ETA 2824-2 is decorated in elaborate with rhodium Perlage and blue screws, Top Grade and was regulated within 3 secs a day average 4 positions.
> ...


While I find this impressive for multiple reasons (I would not attempt such a project)...

Your final pic looks like you are giving your watch a thumbs down


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It gets even better...

These factories all have different rubber compounds. If you don't ask them 2-3 times, you'll get silicone, or whatever other rubber compound they want to give you, no matter what you paid for.

So, after I paid the invoice, I go back to reconfirm...

ME: Please confirm you're using the same rubber compound as my previous order, not silicone.
THEM: That's TPU, not silicone.
ME: No, it's not TPU or silicone. It's {compound} [scrolling back to January, grabbing a screen shot showing we confirmed {compound}, highlighting it, showing where and when they confirmed it].
THEM: Yes.
ME: That's what I want, please - {compound}.
THEM: The TPU is also not a problem. We did some test. They're more dustproof.
ME: [Trying hard not to completely lose my $hlt] I want them all to be {compound}, please.
THEM: The ones you order before were {compound}, but the new blue strap is TPU.
ME: [Really struggling not to lose my $hlt]. I want the same exact straps as before. I want them all {compound}. Can you make all the straps with that material?

Seriously, the straps look identical, but for a very subtle difference. I don't know why they'd change the compound they use based on the design of the strap, but this isn't shocking at all, because I go through this with every order I place, with every vendor I talk to (except for my primary vendor, the one that makes the watches) - confirming the design, color, size, MOQ, price, material, etc, paying, then confirming it all again, receiving it, then re-ordering, and going through the whole cycle from start to finish, again.

It's mind-boggling how and why they can make anything and everything, except what you actually want.

But I am certain that TPU is inferior to the compound we used on the first order. The compound I want is better at low temps, better at high temps, and more wear resistant.

ME: Is the blue strap a different mold? Is the spring bar hole in a different location? If so, I need a sample first. I can't order 50 without knowing if they'll fit.
THEM: They're the same mold. Sorry, the blue straps are made of TPU.
ME: Ugh. Forget it. Just give me 50 of the black with blue stripe, instead of the 50 blue. I don't want TPU. Can you edit the order?
THEM: Only 50 pieces of the black with blue stripe?
ME: [I just want to go to bed] 30 orange, 80 black, 50 black with blue stripe, all made of {compound}.

Seriously, at this point, I'd be happy enough with any 160 straps, in any color, of any size, if they could just be the rubber compound I want. Lady, just go in the back, grab the first 160 straps you can put hands on, and ship them to me. I'll figure out how to sell them.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I just legit LOL'd.
> 
> You owe me a new laptop. I just spit oreos and milk all over mine.


The Oreos are appropriate because of Mediocre's avatar. Lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> The Orion are appropriate because of Mediocre's avatar. Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


My wife made the mistake of baking cookies _before_ dinner tonight

My avatar came alive for the appetizer


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> My money is on you receiving some straps with stripes





docvail said:


> ME: Ugh. Forget it. Just give me 50 of the black with blue stripe, instead of the 50 blue.


So Mediocre, what are you going to do with your winnings?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

seatega said:


> So Mediocre, what are you going to do with your winnings?


I'm dying.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

RotorRonin said:


> Heyyyyyyy any chance you could post a pic of the Ghost with the stainless insert from the Polar? That's a combo I'm interested in...


It's actually a dolphin insert not Polar. The Polar only has a pip and the bezel markings are black.

















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

WATCH..........










Cheerz,

Alan


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Mediocre said:


> While I find this impressive for multiple reasons (I would not attempt such a project)...
> 
> Your final pic looks like you are giving your watch a thumbs down


Thumb was a photo prop to keep the wrist steady. I had switched the strap to a StrapCode black PVD bracelet. This was one of the more convoluted projects I've done hands and thumb down.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I'm here, but if the Franken-sub wins, the prize goes to @jelliottz as he did all the work. Hard to list what happened, as it went through several versions. Started out as a bunch of spare prototype parts. @jelliottz made several different watches from the batch and @docvail sold them to benefit charity. Mine originally had a mil-type face but no date window, and a grey bezel. I think the hands came from a Scorpene, but couldn't be sure. We swapped the mil face for a catalog version, but I eventually found the current mil-spec face WITH a date, and Dan (Doc's awesome guy) swapped the grey bezel for a 12 hour version from the Catalina (again, I think, don't quote me).

It has become the Doc version of the old Benrus, and it's my favorite.

Anyway, here's a current shot, and I'll see if I can dig up an older one:









EDIT: Found some photos of the earlier versions...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

If someone ever wants me to bring them a watch either east or westbound, just send me a PM. It's been known to happen.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Technically it's only 4 NTH subs I have replaced bezels on. I'm not touching the Red Ronin and the BvB lol
> 
> View attachment 15770826
> View attachment 15770827
> ...


What did you replace on the Näcken Vintage Black? It looks stock.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> It's actually a dolphin insert not Polar. The Polar only has a pip and the bezel markings are black.


I was vague, sorry! I meant, I see you have a polar barracuda with a blue bezel. If you still have the stainless bezel insert, can you overlay it on the ghost so I can see what that would look like?


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> My wife made the mistake of baking cookies _before_ dinner tonight
> 
> My avatar came alive for the appetizer


Godfrey

Proof of cookies

Part of a balanced breakfast


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

seatega said:


> So Mediocre, what are you going to do with your winnings?


Turns out what I thought were poker chips were actually pizza flavored pringles. I already ate my winnings


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Don't do this.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> What did you replace on the Näcken Vintage Black? It looks stock.


Actually that's vintage blue nacken

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

RotorRonin said:


> I was vague, sorry! I meant, I see you have a polar barracuda with a blue bezel. If you still have the stainless bezel insert, can you overlay it on the ghost so I can see what that would look like?


No can do, I sold it right away. Sorry. It would look good though!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> We should hold an unofficial Best NTH Modded Sub contest. Winner enjoys unlimited bragging rights on the innerwebz.
> 
> Post a pic of your modded NTH Sub (or Sub innards in some BS case, or Smiths Everest in a Subs case - looking at you, @hwa , for both of those).
> 
> ...


I have the two modded NTH Subs, a Santa Fe and a Barracuda Blue. I think both are eligible for a couple of the awards, the looks like it is stock and the annoy Chris the most award.

For the Santa Fe it has replacement skeleton Snowflake hands, a Kiger bezel for the matching C3 lume to the dial and that touch of colour with the red triangle, and an aftermarket Jubilee bracelet (that Chris hates )










For the Barracuda Blue it has replacement gilt sword hands, the Amphion blue bezel, and an aftermarket Oyster bracelet that tapers from 20-16mm with a glidelock clasp.










I think both work for the 'looks like it could be stock from NTH' even if Chris hates Jubilee bracelets!

And just because, here is the group shot.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> For the Santa Fe it has replacement skeleton Snowflake hands...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> It gets even better...
> 
> These factories all have different rubber compounds. If you don't ask them 2-3 times, you'll get silicone, or whatever other rubber compound they want to give you, no matter what you paid for.
> 
> ...


It's a Monty Python sketch


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Everyone's favorite Amphion today, on a super soft woven single pass nato.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Omegafanboy said:


> I have the two modded NTH Subs, a Santa Fe and a Barracuda Blue. I think both are eligible for a couple of the awards, the looks like it is stock and the annoy Chris the most award.
> 
> For the Santa Fe it has replacement skeleton Snowflake hands, a Kiger bezel for the matching C3 lume to the dial and that touch of colour with the red triangle, and an aftermarket Jubilee bracelet (that Chris hates )
> 
> ...


Where did you get the 20mm-16mm taper oyster? Im dying to find a heavy taper oyster for one of mine.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

The skeleton hands were actually a mod done by @hwa which he then sold on to me. I then added the bezel and bracelet. You will have to ask Andrew where he got the hands from.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Not really a mod, just put it on a sail cloth strap that I think fits the Oberon well. I just wanted to participate lol


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

PowerChucker said:


> Where did you get the 20mm-16mm taper oyster? Im dying to find a heavy taper oyster for one of mine.


The Oyster was bought from AliExpress from a vendor called Carlywet I believe. I have bought a number of different bracelets from AliExpress and the fitting can be different. I have one that fits the NTH but does not work on my Halios Seaforth, and I have another that goes the other way round. I have a third that does not fit either. It can be a little hit or miss sometimes as the holes do not always line up, but at under $20 I was willing to take the risk.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Don't do this.
> 
> View attachment 15771568


Why would you even?

Take a picture of the case, from the side, clearly showing the profile of the bezel retention ledge, and email it to us.

The pic should look like this. The part circled in red is what I need to see, clearly, in focus, from an angle/perspective that gives me a clear view of the machining to the mid-case.

If the case was made wrong, we'll replace it. No charge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Actually that's vintage blue nacken
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I am Jack's profound sense of embarassment.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Why would you even?
> 
> Take a picture of the case, from the side, clearly showing the profile of the bezel retention ledge, and email it to us.
> 
> ...





















???


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I am Jack's profound sense of embarassment.


Ha! Like looking at a picture of your kid and say.."who's that?"

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> The skeleton hands were actually a mod done by @hwa which he then sold on to me. I then added the bezel and bracelet. You will have to ask Andrew where he got the hands from.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He probably made them himself, using a razor blade and piano wire. That guy can do all kinds of amazing things!



kpjimmy said:


> Ha! Like looking at a picture of your kid and say.."who's that?"
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I have identical twins, so that literally happens to me all the time. Especially looking at their baby photos!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Best mod, game over

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The only NTH I've tweaked beyond strap / bracelet changes. Clearly not a hard core mod - impactful, though, I think.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I have identical twins, so that literally happens to me all the time. Especially looking at their baby photos!


At least you have the twins excuse. Mine are one boy, one girl, several years apart and I still make the same mistake when it comes to baby photos. Winds the Mrs up no end.

(I maintain that all babies look like Winston Churchill anyway.)

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

jelliottz said:


> And some honorable mentions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Flex

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I have been unable to upload photos from tapa for months. I blame Chris. 

If i can solve for x, i will post them all. All the nth mods. Hands. Cases. Frankens. Custom dials. For sheer audacity, the smiths mashup with plexi top hat in the midst of the “incident” would be worthy of at least a kick in the teeth. 

Still, jelli’s calypso is the best. 

But I wouldn’t trade either of my NTH58 mods for it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pilot2 (May 1, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> I'm here, but if the Franken-sub wins, the prize goes to @jelliottz as he did all the work. Hard to list what happened, as it went through several versions. Started out as a bunch of spare prototype parts. @jelliottz made several different watches from the batch and @docvail sold them to benefit charity. Mine originally had a mil-type face but no date window, and a grey bezel. I think the hands came from a Scorpene, but couldn't be sure. We swapped the mil face for a catalog version, but I eventually found the current mil-spec face WITH a date, and Dan (Doc's awesome guy) swapped the grey bezel for a 12 hour version from the Catalina (again, I think, don't quote me).
> 
> It has become the Doc version of the old Benrus, and it's my favorite.
> 
> ...


What are you flying?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Pilot2 said:


> What are you flying?


A330. Last in a long series...

And that's why every third time I login or so, my flag is different.


----------



## Pilot2 (May 1, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> A330. Last in a long series...
> 
> And that's why every third time I login or so, my flag is different.


Lol! That's cool. Thanks.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> I have been unable to upload photos from tapa for months. I blame Chris.
> 
> If i can solve for x, i will post them all. All the nth mods. Hands. Cases. Frankens. Custom dials. For sheer audacity, the smiths mashup with plexi top hat in the midst of the "incident" would be worthy of at least a kick in the teeth.
> 
> ...


Calypso is strong, for sure.

I can contribute one example of your handy work while you sort out photo uploading.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not going into details, but Doc's / NTH Customer Service/Support is second to none. I mean, like, way over and above. Vastly exceeds expectation. I continue to be a very happy customer/brand cheerleader.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Calypso is strong, for sure.
> 
> I can contribute one example of your handy work while you sort out photo uploading.
> 
> ...


That maybe was first to get a 9015 into 2824 case. Magic!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

That’s most of it!


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

hwa said:


> That's most of it!


Premiering tonight on WIS+, the HWA show. Staying tuned for more


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

@hwa - you really can't leave a good watch alone, can you?

Has there been any NTH Sub you've gotten and NOT modified in some way?

If there is, my money's on it being the Nacken Vintage Blue.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> @hwa - you really can't leave a good watch alone, can you?
> 
> Has there been any NTH Sub you've gotten and NOT modified in some way?
> 
> If there is, my money's on it being the Nacken Vintage Blue.


Nailed it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

No mods&#8230;


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mods schmods. Took a quick break from assembling skids yesterday for a quick 10:10 shot of the Tikuna. No mods needed with this one.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

hwa said:


> That's most of it!


I don't suppose any of those three non-divers were straight swaps were they?


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

No mods, just a soft single pass, and I Love how the sunlight can really make the relief part of the Gilt relief dial POP. This watch captures my heart every day in a new way.


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Already pretty perfect, just a few strap changes make this one exceptional!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Mods schmods. Took a quick break from assembling skids yesterday for a quick 10:10 shot of the Tikuna. No mods needed with this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was already great. 
But the quieter bezel insert makes it better.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> I don't suppose any of those three non-divers were straight swaps were they?


Meaning what? Nth guts in 36mm cases? That's almost exactly what they are. Just need a spacer between dial front and case to align stem with crown tube.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I don't suppose any of those three non-divers were straight swaps were they?





hwa said:


> Meaning what? Nth guts in 36mm cases? That's almost exactly what they are. Just need a spacer between dial front and case to align stem with crown tube.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In case what hwa's saying isn't clear...

The cases weren't made for the 9015, but for some other movement, I think an ETA, with a larger distance between dial and crown stem (the crown stem height). In order to properly align the crown stem with the case tube, I'm pretty sure hwa made his own dial spacers.

While that worked for him and his watches, pushing the dial up / crown down decreases the clearance between the hands and the dial. If you're doing that, you'll want to be very mindful when you remount the hands, particularly the hour hand. You want to make very sure it's straight (sitting parallel to the dial, not angled downward at all).

The clearance between the dial and hour hand is normally just 0.4mm with the Miyota movements. That's not a very large margin for error to start with.

Otherwise, those case-swap mods work well enough because the dial openings in the cases are the same size, or close enough.

But there again, you'll want to avoid using a case with a dial opening any more than a fraction of a mm larger or smaller than ours, to avoid the seconds hand scraping on the inner wall of the dial opening.

The difference in diamater between the inner case wall and the movement-dial assembly is usually 0.5mm, total, or just 0.25mm clearance all around the perimeter. The assembly can theoretically shift around, laterally, by that much (0.25mm).

We tend to leave 0.5mm clearance between the tip of the seconds hand and the dial opening (2x the amount the dial can shift around). But our dial opening is 1mm wider at the top (where the seconds hand is) than at the bottom, which is unusual, and gives us an added 0.5mm buffer of clearance. Most crystal opening walls are the same diameter, top and bottom.

If the dial opening in your case is much larger (and if the case opening for the movement is too), the assembly could possibly shift around enough for the seconds hand to scrape the wall. Likewise, if the dial opening is much smaller, and straight up and down, you may not have enough clearance, and the seconds hand might scrape the wall.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The dial spacer moves the hands FARTHER from the crystal, and because the 9015 is thinner than the 2824, moving it back in the case causes no caseback problem. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

hwa said:


> The dial spacer moves the hands FARTHER from the crystal, and because the 9015 is thinner than the 2824, moving it back in the case causes no caseback problem.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What case have you used to do this? I would like to try out a 36mm watch mod.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> What case have you used to do this? I would like to try out a 36mm watch mod.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Alpha, Riyi among others. Any 36mm explorer or datejust type commonly seen on the 'bay.

Only trick is cutting the dial shim. I used 28mm leather punch on polystyrene (0.25mm), lightly sanded it, and hand cut the outer diameter.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Don't do this.
> 
> View attachment 15771568


Quoting to borrow picture...

Interesting to see the click spring. And that it appears to have multiple points where in engages with the bezel. At 12:45, 4:45, 8:45. Having seen this, it makes sense since some bezels feel like they have two different tones of clicking. (Not NTH specifically. I'm probably thinking of Seikos.) I assume that is one tab engaging and then another. The two different tones (and maybe slightly different spacing/timing of the clicks?) reminds me of a V-twin with uneven firing pulses.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> The dial spacer moves the hands FARTHER from the crystal, and because the 9015 is thinner than the 2824, moving it back in the case causes no caseback problem.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also true, but not what would concern me.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Quoting to borrow picture...
> 
> Interesting to see the click spring. And that it appears to have multiple points where in engages with the bezel. At 12:45, 4:45, 8:45. Having seen this, it makes sense since some bezels feel like they have two different tones of clicking. (Not NTH specifically. I'm probably thinking of Seikos.) I assume that is one tab engaging and then another. The two different tones (and maybe slightly different spacing/timing of the clicks?) reminds me of a V-twin with uneven firing pulses.


Seikos have two click balls, which alternate clicks. If you turn the bezel slowly, you can feel the point at which each ball clicks.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

hwa said:


> View attachment 15774605


That looks powerfully like a Tudor case, bezel, and glass. I'm not sure about the hands. In fact I'm not sure about any of it.
What's going on there, I'd love to know please ?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> That looks powerfully like a Tudor case, bezel, and glass. I'm not sure about the hands. In fact I'm not sure about any of it.
> What's going on there, I'd love to know please ?


Just another instance of imitation and flattery

Def not Tudor parts

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads up, peeps! The NTH website will have NO NTH AZORES available when they go on sale. Our retail partners cleaned us out. If you want an Azores, you better make sure you're on your closest retailer's wait list. List of retailers by location here -

Authorized Retailers | Quality Watches Without the Hype | NTH Watches


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

#3 on the Absinthe list.


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

docvail said:


> Heads up, peeps! The NTH website will have NO NTH AZORES available when they go on sale. Our retail partners cleaned us out. If you want an Azores, you better make sure you're on your closest retailer's wait list. List of retailers by location here -
> 
> Authorized Retailers | Quality Watches Without the Hype | NTH Watches
> 
> ...


Can you give us a secret heads up on the release date?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Chatoboy said:


> Can you give us a heads up on the release date?


Soon.


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> Soon.
> View attachment 15780763


Lol, thanks.🙄 I was hoping for some inside info, just for us! Shhhh 🤫


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Chatoboy said:


> Lol, thanks.🙄 I was hoping for some inside info, just for us! Shhhh 🤫


I couldn't help myself 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> Seikos have two click balls












Ehhhh, hehehe, he said "balls" hehehe.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chatoboy said:


> Can you give us a secret heads up on the release date?


What secret? I've been saying end of March / beginning of April.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> What secret? I've been saying end of March / beginning of April.


DD:hh:mm:ss... I think he wants specifics....

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> What secret? I've been saying end of March / beginning of April.


He wants a pic posted of an Azores with the date and hands set to the launch moment!


----------



## JaysunDee (Jul 8, 2020)

Came here to see watches... Didn't see anything on the entire first page... Peace!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dudes, seriously, consider all the microbrands that deliver watches months later than expected, if ever.

Realize how amazing it is when we're consistently within 2 weeks of whatever estimate I came up with months prior, when we started production.

I'm just hoping they get here this week, or early next, so Dan can do QC and shipping during his week off from work (next week). If not, it could be a little longer.

Meanwhile, I'm just waiting on my vendor to send me that tracking number...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JaysunDee said:


> Came here to see watches... Didn't see anything on the entire first page... Peace!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

JaysunDee said:


> Came here to see watches... Didn't see anything on the entire first page... Peace!


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

JaysunDee said:


> Came here to see watches... Didn't see anything on the entire first page... Peace!


I mean, who looks at more than one page from a thread? Thats crazy talk.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Where are the watches?

/leaves without posting pic of a watch/

That’s irony, son


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Seems like Jaysun started a thread and got all riled up about the replies he was receiving and promptly got banned. Decided to go out in a bit of a blaze. What went on in that other thread didn't seem that bad tho. Maybe he posted some stuff that has since been cleansed?


----------



## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

If you look at the first page there’s clearly a photo of a tikuna on the third to last post... it’s even conveniently labeled “First photo”


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Updated the vintage blue nacken with the tiburon insert
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Seems like Jaysun started a thread and got all riled up about the replies he was receiving and promptly got banned. Decided to go out in a bit of a blaze. What went on in that other thread didn't seem that bad tho. Maybe he posted some stuff that has since been cleansed?


There are a lot of moderator interventions which I really wish would be explained, if only for the entertainment value, or simply to satisfy curiosity.

I've occasionally lamented how often it seems like someone joined the forum just to be a jerk, but that's not exactly against the rules, and it's rare to see someone banned just for being a consistent jerk.

That said, it can and does happen. When it does, especially to a newer member, I wonder if the account isn't one started by someone who's already been banned, but created a new account just to come back and troll. The mods seem to be pretty decent at associating new accounts with previously banned members.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post!

Random pic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Updated the vintage blue nacken with the tiburon insert
> View attachment 15781357
> View attachment 15781358
> 
> ...


That's a good one, and a new entry in the "looks stock" category.

Weird how the vintage blue dial just looked black with a gray bezel, but now with a blue bezel, I see the dial as blue, instantly.


----------



## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> Dudes, seriously, consider all the microbrands that deliver watches months later than expected, if ever.
> 
> Realize how amazing it is when we're consistently within 2 weeks of whatever estimate I came up with months prior, when we started production.
> 
> ...


Can I miss out the vendor and go straight your factory. It's a lovely watch


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

There are currently delays at US ports on all imports due to higher volume and COVID-related worker shortages. For orders placed months ago, this was not figured into shipping schedules, which directly impact release/availability. 

In the best of times, there can be unforeseen delays, like "Congratulations, Citizen - US CBP has decided your most recent shipment is due for extra scrutiny, we appreciate your voluntary cooperation!"

In the past month, there was weather which caused massive ground shipping delays, and people were all, "Where's my stuff??? They said it should be here already. I need to speak to a manager!"

So, honestly, I'd rather have a brand owner tell me "end of March - beginning of April" than "March 26th!" and then release is delayed to to circumstances completely out of the owner's control. And honestly? For all the potential "You said March 26th!" haterz who would immediately flood social media, roundly castigating the brand owner? 

Vague is good. And honestly, as much as Doc keeps everyone up to date, if you miss a release, you are really just not paying attention. So when Doc posts, "Place your pre-order with one of our vendors," and links to his vendor list? Maybe follow the brand owner's advice...?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

INAMINUTE said:


> Can I miss out the vendor and go straight your factory. It's a lovely watch


If you can find the factory, or any factory, and agree to buy 300-500 pieces, you can make anything you want.


----------



## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

docvail said:


> If you can find the factory, or any factory, and agree to buy 300-500 pieces, you can make anything you want.


I'll take that as no then


----------



## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Mediocre said:


> He wants a pic posted of an Azores with the date and hands set to the launch moment!


That's a great idea, Lol. Just excited about this one and completely understand the logistics. Was meant as a joke and some didn't get it. Peace


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

INAMINUTE said:


> Can I miss out the vendor and go straight your factory. It's a lovely watch


Right, only logical next step after cutting out the middle man, is circumventing the front man 😂

[Edit] well actually, I guess that's what factory brands are..


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> Seems like Jaysun started a thread and got all riled up about the replies he was receiving and promptly got banned. Decided to go out in a bit of a blaze. What went on in that other thread didn't seem that bad tho. Maybe he posted some stuff that has since been cleansed?


Was the thread deleted? I'd love to read it.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Was the thread deleted? I'd love to read it.


I think this was it, but he seemed to "go off" in a few others as well:








Brand names that prevent you from loving?


I've seen threads about brand names that stop you from buying one of their watches, but what about ones you bought, but then couldn't fall in love with it due to the name? For me that's my current Steeldive piece. So much to love about it, until I look at and repeat the name. The first time...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I think this was it, but he seemed to "go off" in a few others as well:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't stand when the mods remove the offending posts while banning someone. Those posts are often pure gold for entertainment.

Nothing beats the "screw this, I'm out" thread, though, for my money.


----------



## Rogco (Jan 12, 2017)

Wimads said:


> Right, only logical next step after cutting out the middle man, is circumventing the front man 😂
> 
> [Edit] well actually, I guess that's what factory brands are..


I read your comment and this sprang fully formed into my head. Immediately had to make a meme.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rogco said:


> I read your comment and this sprang fully formed into my head. Immediately had to make a meme.
> View attachment 15782294


I'm stealing this, going over to Facebook, and pretending I thought of it.

Thanks!


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Rogco said:


> I read your comment and this sprang fully formed into my head. Immediately had to make a meme.
> View attachment 15782294


🤣🤣🤣 actually got tears laughing 😂😂


----------



## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'm stealing this, going over to Facebook, and pretending I thought of it.
> 
> Thanks!


So I saw this on Facebook first and immediately came over here because I had a feeling it had originated on this thread lol


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> So I saw this on Facebook first and immediately came over here because I had a feeling it had originated on this thread lol


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> There are currently delays at US ports on all imports due to higher volume and COVID-related worker shortages. For orders placed months ago, this was not figured into shipping schedules, which directly impact release/availability.
> 
> In the best of times, there can be unforeseen delays, like "Congratulations, Citizen - US CBP has decided your most recent shipment is due for extra scrutiny, we appreciate your voluntary cooperation!"


FWIW, I've carted stuff back and forth from the EU to the US. Once covid quiets down, I expect I'll do it again. I usually get to France, UK, Netherlands, and Italy...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> FWIW, I've carted stuff back and forth from the EU to the US. Once covid quiets down, I expect I'll do it again. I usually get to France, UK, Netherlands, and Italy...


You know you sound like you're breezing through customs with a kilo of China white taped to your leg, right?


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> FWIW, I've carted stuff back and forth from the EU to the US. Once covid quiets down, I expect I'll do it again. I usually get to France, UK, Netherlands, and Italy...


If you were not previously on a watch list....you are now!

:edit:

Doc was quicker than me


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> You know you sound like you're breezing through customs with a kilo of China white taped to your leg, right?


Yup. Pretty much. I usually travel with two watches anyway. And they're so busy looking at my toothpaste they don't seem to notice I have an extra watch...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Yup. Pretty much. I usually travel with two watches anyway. And they're so busy looking at my toothpaste they don't seem to notice I have an extra watch...


We'll all come visit you in lockup...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

As long as I don't go to Hong Kong...








Exclusive: UPS pilots detained in Hong Kong while awaiting COVID test results


Hong Kong has ratcheted up quarantine requirements on inbound pilots, escalating tensions with the U.S. and impacting the operations of express carriers UPS and FedEx.



www.freightwaves.com


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> Yup. Pretty much. I usually travel with two watches anyway. And they're so busy looking at my toothpaste they don't seem to notice I have an extra watch...


I have always been slightly paranoid when going through customs, in large part because I am usually on a moderately tight schedule, often for work. Based on exchange rate, the equivalent amount of a couple hundred USD in some other currencies can look like you're a walking bank. While still under the USD currency declaration point, I always felt best if I reported it and let customs decide.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> If you were not previously on a watch list....you are now!
> 
> :edit:
> 
> Doc was quicker than me


Hehe.

"Watch" list.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Hehe.
> 
> "Watch" list.


I had my fingers crossed someone would get it LOL


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> FWIW, I've carted stuff back and forth from the EU to the US. Once covid quiets down, I expect I'll do it again. I usually get to France, UK, Netherlands, and Italy...


You are trying real hard to get me to ask you to pick me up a Lip GMT, aren't you...
🤣


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Someone say Azores?
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Someone say Azores?
> View attachment 15783391
> View attachment 15783392
> 
> ...


That is sharp!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> You are trying real hard to get me to ask you to pick me up a Lip GMT, aren't you...
> 🤣


Lol. I have carted all kinds of stuff back and forth for friends. Flight crews get certain exemptions, particularly on stuff like wine. It never fails on the way out of Paris, somebody will be dragging a case of wine. Funny thing tho, it's typically cheaper in the States anyway. Same label, same vintage. Regarding the LIP, I've never looked for them in a store, but I think it would be nearly impossible to beat on-line price at TimeByMe. They have it on the tropic strap at $255, with 20% off....


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Lol. I have carted all kinds of stuff back and forth for friends. Flight crews get certain exemptions, particularly on stuff like wine. It never fails on the way out of Paris, somebody will be dragging a case of wine. Funny thing tho, it's typically cheaper in the States anyway. Same label, same vintage. Regarding the LIP, I've never looked for them in a store, but I think it would be nearly impossible to beat on-line price at TimeByMe. They have it on the tropic strap at $255, with 20% off....


Probably you will need this LE from Seiko this May...










Do you ever do Japan routes...?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Do you ever do Japan routes...?


Just Atlantic (Europe and Africa) and South America. And I'm all GMT'd out, 5 at last count. And 3 of Doc's 12-hour bezels, which honestly suit my purposes really well...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH v.2 TROPICS ARE DELAYED!

Sorry for any confusion here. An email blast scheduled for last week didn't go out until today, saying that the v.2 Tropics are due early April. It's actually going to be late April / early May.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> NTH v.2 TROPICS ARE DELAYED!
> 
> Sorry for any confusion here. An email blast scheduled for last week didn't go out until today, saying that the v.2 Tropics are due early April. It's actually going to be late April / early May.


Please no offensive language, mods.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> NTH v.2 TROPICS ARE DELAYED!
> 
> Sorry for any confusion here. An email blast scheduled for last week didn't go out until today, saying that the v.2 Tropics are due early April. It's actually going to be late April / early May.


Something routed via the Suez?


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> NTH v.2 TROPICS ARE DELAYED!
> 
> Sorry for any confusion here. An email blast scheduled for last week didn't go out until today, saying that the v.2 Tropics are due early April. It's actually going to be late April / early May.


Well ****! Just put my name on the list with Kell for a Antilles - Dark Rum. I've been a lurking non-owner in this forum for awhile. Guess I can wait a little longer to join the ranks.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Mediocre said:


> Something routed via the Suez?











Was anyone minding the tiller?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> View attachment 15786070
> 
> Was anyone minding the tiller?


The Captain was taking a picture of his watch...


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> The Captain was taking a picture of his watch...


No doubt. Apparently he was trying to cut ahead of another ship. Happened yesterday.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

RmacMD said:


> No doubt. Apparently he was trying to cut ahead of another ship. Happened yesterday.
> View attachment 15786112


That's called "crossing the T", though the pic isn't hi-def, so, I can't tell if the cannons are run out...

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> No doubt. Apparently he was trying to cut ahead of another ship. Happened yesterday.
> View attachment 15786112


Pic is crying for a "you had one job" caption


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I don’t believe any ship can pass another in the Suez, i sailed in the Merchant Marines years ago through the Suez, traffic was single file and only a certain number of ships were allowed to travel in one direction. Once south bound traffic cleared the upper canal and moored in the lake then northern traffic proceeded. Same in the lower channel. There are two canals in the upper portion, one older and one newer. But they dont run the entire length of the upper channel.

These super size ships are easily moved around by strong winds if they aren’t moving and as they dont move fast in the canal a strong wind could easily push the stern around and cause a ship to veer off course. Also if a ship suffered a power loss it would lose engines and steerage.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 15786385


Looks great. But then I think you could take a pic of a yard sale 20yr old casio and make it look great. Nice pics!


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

davek35 said:


> Looks great. But then I think you could take a pic of a yard sale 20yr old casio and make it look great. Nice pics!


Thank you.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh, fitted rubber straps. Why did I start down this road?

So...

I thought the 22mm rubber strap sample I'd received fit the 2K1's case perfectly. I ordered 40 more, got them, and sent 3 of them for photography.

The photographer then tells me they don't fit the case. You can get the strap on, but the little flap on the inner surface, which is supposed to catch on the bottom of the case, isn't wide enough, so the strap can swivel up, creating a gap between it and the case.

I have no idea how I missed that, but apparently, I did. Even the original sample strap they sent me has the same problem.

Meanwhile, I'd already placed an order for another 160 straps, which I had to quickly cancel, but I wasn't quick enough to stop them before they'd engraved all the buckles, so my refund will be net of their cost. 

The only other 22mm sample I got wasn't quite as nice a strap. It has a simpler design, and doesn't have that same problem with swiveling around. But instead of the strap's upper surface sitting flush with the lugs, or slightly recessed, it sits slightly proud of them, which I don't think people will like.

I've already got two other strap samples on their way to me. I'm just praying one or the other fits, and is good quality. 

Anyone know anyone who wants to buy 41 curved-end 22mm rubber straps? I'll make them a good price.

Gonna have to try seeing if they'll work with the DevilRays or Orthos...


----------



## Tototony (Jan 14, 2015)

Phantom is looking good after 5 years and it keeps getting compliments. Bracelet is borrowed from a Nautica watch (almost perfect fit).


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tototony said:


> Phantom is looking good after 5 years and it keeps getting compliments. Bracelet is borrowed from a Nautica watch (almost perfect fit).
> View attachment 15787562


Never saw it on a bracelet! Looks good!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Tototony said:


> Phantom is looking good after 5 years and it keeps getting compliments. Bracelet is borrowed from a Nautica watch (almost perfect fit).
> View attachment 15787562


Always love a good Sammy dial.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## technovox (Sep 23, 2020)

My NTH Kiger has been getting lots of wrist time lately.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ugh, fitted rubber straps. Why did I start down this road?
> 
> So...
> 
> ...


Ahh thats a kicker, what's worse you can't blame anyone else.

As you know, fitted straps are watch specific. 
If you can find a popular watch they fit well, then put them up on the bay as fitting that watch, with pictures of them on the watch. Then you'll eventually clear the debt.
That's all I can think of.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Ahh thats a kicker, what's worse you can't blame anyone else.
> 
> As you know, fitted straps are watch specific.
> If you can find a popular watch they fit well, then put them up on the bay as fitting that watch, with pictures of them on the watch. Then you'll eventually clear the debt.
> That's all I can think of.


We might be okay here. With a little finagling and a tad of finesse, I was able to get one of them fitted to the DevilRay.

Y'all tell me what you guys think of this.

Yay or nay?


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> We might be okay here. With a little finagling and a tad of finesse, I was able to get one of them fitted to the DevilRay.
> 
> Y'all tell me what you guys think of this.
> 
> ...


Fitted bracelets often don't match the height of the lugs, so that's fine. The only niggle, which wouldn't be noticed by most non wis unless you point it out to them, is the slight extension beyond the length of the lugs.
They certainly seem to fit snuggly in the lug space with no gaps between the inside surfaces (as far as I can see), which is basically the most important thing.

I think it's okay, but only after I've seen a plan /top down view, to check that extension.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> We might be okay here. With a little finagling and a tad of finesse, I was able to get one of them fitted to the DevilRay.
> 
> Y'all tell me what you guys think of this.
> 
> ...


Looks like it was made for it to me


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Only because you asked...

Good luck working through the strap challenges.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The fit looks fine to my eyes, though obviously imperfect. But I'm not a fan of the black/blue stripe. 

But seeing as I don't have a DR, does my opinion even matter?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah, the feedback I've gotten with a poll in the NTH Fans group on Facebook has been mixed.










I think these particular straps would have looked better with the 2K1's, but they actually fit the DevilRays, and I only bought 40 of them, so I might as well try to sell them. How hard can it be to sell 40 straps (he asked rhetorically, realizing full well he probably just jinxed himself)?

Meanwhile, I've got some other 22mm strap samples on their way to me, but of course, this exercise hasn't gotten any less frustrating...

I found a supplier that makes 22mm straps with a style I like, and using the rubber compound I want, but they only make them in three colors - black, gray, and green:










Why those three colors, and only those three? I don't know. Here's hoping the black sample I've got coming will fit the 2K1's.

I also found a supplier that makes two-tone straps, in a variety of color combos, though I think only the black & blue will work, and they're not the rubber compound I was hoping for.










My original 22mm strap supplier also makes these same straps, in the same style and sizes, and using the rubber compound I want, but they're stupid expensive. They'd end up being $70-$80 straps (retail), which is just insane.

Lastly, my original 22mm strap supplier suddenly found that they do have an alternative strap design, one I like better than the 40 pieces they sold me, and it's made with the compound I want, but they're not sure they have it in 22mm. It could be just the 20's, which of course doesn't help me at all, since I won't be able to test-fit them with the 2K1's...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

My takeaway from these strap updates...?

A perfectly fitted rubber strap for a Micro that is not custom made, is harder to do than I imagined. 

I assume sending an empty case to a strap manufacturer to see if they could make a proper one would be quite cost prohibitive? Probably jump the MOQ up to a retarded number as well?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> My takeaway from these strap updates...?
> 
> A perfectly fitted rubber strap for a Micro that is not custom made, is harder to do than I imagined.
> 
> I assume sending an empty case to a strap manufacturer to see if they could make a proper one would be quite cost prohibitive? Probably jump the MOQ up to a retarded number as well?


Basically, yes.

To do something custom will require tooling costs higher than what I'm paying for the straps. It just doesn't make sense.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Scbr24 (Oct 21, 2017)

Sorry if this has already been asked recently, I saw a comment from ~5 months ago saying that the blue Odin MIGHT be available again, are there any updates? Thanks.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Try here:








Products







nthwatches.com


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scbr24 said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked recently, I saw a comment from ~5 months ago saying that the blue Odin MIGHT be available again, are there any updates? Thanks.


We've got 10 pieces coming soon.

We somehow ended up with 50 of the v.1 Subs cases left unassembled, so we're whipping up 10 pieces each of a handful of models.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just getting ready for take off to Jamaica.

Gate attendant was wearing an Orient Mako. I said, "nice Orient."

"Thank you! I really like it. I have three of them."

Even on vacation, can't get away from WIS...

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> We somehow ended up with 50 of the v.1 Subs cases left unassembled, so we're whipping up 10 pieces each of a handful of models.


Please tell more!
Have a great vacation!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I need a green house to store my watches. They always look so much better outdoors in good light.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, the Strapco 40mm fitted rubber strap is a really good fit on the Subs. Only thing I Couldn't live with is the long (but realy nicely finished) clasp, and the fact that there is no adjustment forward, toward the 6. Didn't work for me, but I know many do not have issues with that kind of fit. Slightly pricey, but if you're looking for a fitted strap for your Sub, it works...

Currently pondering a Benotto Cinturini 300 or 400, which looks to have the kind of adjustment I prefer, and might work with a stick NTH clasp... but straight end, not fitted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Please tell more!
> Have a great vacation!


Not much to tell. We had 50 cases left over, 40 stainless, and 10 DLC. We're having the 40 stainless cases assembled into 40 watches, and will be doing some one-off assemblies with maybe 4-6 of the DLC cases.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> FWIW, the Strapco 40mm fitted rubber strap is a really good fit on the Subs. Only thing I Couldn't live with is the long (but realy nicely finished) clasp, and the fact that there is no adjustment forward, toward the 6. Didn't work for me, but I know many do not have issues with that kind of fit. Slightly pricey, but if you're looking for a fitted strap for your Sub, it works...
> 
> Currently pondering a Benotto Cinturini 300 or 400, which looks to have the kind of adjustment I prefer, and might work with a stick NTH clasp... but straight end, not fitted.


I have a solution for the 40mm Subs. I'm still working on one for the 22mm lugs of the 2K1's.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I just lost out on a bid for an Amphion. I was the only bidder in the last two days. Put an extra £50 of bets above in £5 increments, but got dunked in the last 2 seconds.
Keeping my eye out. Got my eye on something else, but not going to draw attention to it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> I need a green house to store my watches. They always look so much better outdoors in good light.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that the Barracuda Brown insert? Curious why you didn't opt for the Holland insert, with white lume.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> On the real...I'm not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back for being a swell guy.
> 
> But, just the same...
> 
> ...


So...this problem hasn't gone away...

It seems the watch has now been sold again. The seller told the buyer that we'd fix it.

That's not what I said. What I said was that we could sell a new case, or just the bezel ring. Replacement to be done by the watch's owner, or anyone he designates, but it won't be us.

No other support offered, nor can we offer any more.

Multiple emails of increasing length and detail have criss-crossed the innerwebz, one attempting to make clear that we shouldn't have to spend a lot of time explaining anything at this point, as the watch was out of warranty years ago, and it was screwed up by someone else in the chain of custody, so it shouldn't be made into our problem. Alas, I'm not sure that message was clearly received, or accepted.

Today the current owner is asking for my phone number, so his jeweler can speak to me about it...

I knew when I tried to help that I'd regret doing anything other than refusing to help at all.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Is that the Barracuda Brown insert? Curious why you didn't opt for the Holland insert, with white lume.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Yes, Barracuda. Wanted brown brown vs. red brown. When not cooking in sunlight, the bezel insert lume isn't so vibrantly colored.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh...rubber straps...

You literally couldn't make this $hlt up.

This is the exchange I had with one of the new 22mm strap suppliers, who was supposed to be sending me a sample I already paid for.

I initiated this exchange by sending a message from a link in one of the listings this factory had for a 22mm strap that looked like it might fit the 2K1's...










If you're already wondering why I'm putting up with the attitude, you're not alone. Had this exchange occurred 2 months ago, I'd have told her to go eff herself, and moved onto the next vendor. But 2 months later, I'm no closer to having a fitted strap for the 2K1's, so I pressed on...










You see how helpful some of these vendors can be. They don't make them in solid orange or solid blue. They don't make them in solid colors, period.

This is why I usually let my primary vendor source components for me, or otherwise, I stick to the vendors I meet face-to-face in the main hall at the Hong Kong show. Those tend to be the more professional ones. They charge more, but they're easier to work with...


















Fine, so, I just paid the sample cost plus $32.26 shipping for one rubber strap sample, in two-ply black and blue.

It's 22mm, but NOT made of the compound I want. I'm really just trying to see if this strap design will fit the 2K1's.

If so, I'll find the same design from another supplier (hopefully), or ask this vendor what it will cost to have them made from the rubber compound I want, or I'll just give up, use the lower-cost compound, and charge less for the straps.

Then this happens...










I mean...what the serious f**k?

This is ALL THE TIME.

Below is my latest exchange with the vendor who sent me the straps that don't fit the 2K1's, but do fit the DevilRay and Orthos. Did I already say I ordered a bunch more of those straps before I realized they wouldn't work?

I had to apply for a refund. But I was told they already engraved the buckles with my logo...

















Okay. So far, so good. They have other 22mm straps using the rubber compound I want. She sends two pics of straps.

One pic is two-tone straps, just like the ones from the other vendor above. The other pic is solid-color straps, but in a bag marked "20", for 20mm...

















It's like the gang that couldn't shoot straight over there.

Meanwhile, I heard from the supplier who's now taken 10 weeks to make 600 of the 20mm straps which apparently only take 15 days...










Sometimes I just want to punch the entire world in the face...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Ugh...rubber straps...
> 
> You literally couldn't make this $hlt up.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. But I did laugh a little bit.

However, I do appreciate the persistence in the face of idiocy. I feel your pain. Really. I do.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> So...this problem hasn't gone away...
> 
> It seems the watch has now been sold again. The seller told the buyer that we'd fix it.
> 
> ...


I forget who initially said it, but it's one of those really famous sayings that just seems to really sum life up...

"No good deed deserves to go unpunished"


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

This just in:

NTH has decided no more rubber straps ever


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

wearing this sexy beast today.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Speaking of sexy beasts...,


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Here's my submission for picture day.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> So...this problem hasn't gone away...
> 
> It seems the watch has now been sold again. The seller told the buyer that we'd fix it.
> 
> ...


Send him to me. Its not jewelry to swap a case. It's lego.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

It's a DLC day


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

hwa said:


> Send him to me. Its not jewelry to swap a case. It's lego.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is that Lego Technic or just normal Lego ? ?

I loved Technic Lego when I was a kid, but I very quickly learnt I was rubbish at it. That must be why I run a million miles from trying to do anything more than changing a strap.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Live from Jamaica, NTH Odin Blue.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Live from Jamaica, NTH Odin Blue.
> 
> View attachment 15800695
> 
> ...


Great pic Chris! I hope you and your family are able to fully kick back and let loose after a year of being trapped in the house lol. Enjoy the sun! its 41 degrees and raining back home right now. I have to drive from Delco all the way up to Langhorn today for my vaccine. i95 around the stadiums is brutal right now


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Is that Lego Technic or just normal Lego ?
> 
> I loved Technic Lego when I was a kid, but I very quickly learnt I was rubbish at it. That must be why I run a million miles from trying to do anything more than changing a strap.


If all you're doing is swapping the guts from one case to another identical one, its as easy as pie.

Unscrew back
Unscrew crown
Remove stem
Loosen three case screws
Remove movement holder
Drop guts into your hand.

Reverse.

It's a five-minute job.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Possibly interesting observation from this week...

I've been deliberately wearing the same watch, the Odin Blue, for all our big activities. Those have included ATV riding and cliff/cave diving.

People sometimes debate how much abuse an automatic movement can take. It's been said you shouldn't wear one while riding a motorcycle, and they can't take hard knocks very well.

The ATV ride on Tuesday was off road, on a rocky trail. The handlebars shook and vibrated so much my hand went numb.

Yesterday we dove 25-30 feet (in the air) into a mineral spring down inside a cave. That was high enough to hurt my feet and jam one of my fingers when I hit the water. One of the Jamaican kids running this daredevil act pointed out my watch and asked if it would be alright, before he climbed a tree so he could jump from even higher.

This morning, the Odin isn't just still ticking, it's still bang on the time, having not been reset since I set it Monday morning.

Later today I'll be taking it on a four hour speedboat tour of some local caves, and Booby Cay (_snicker_) with my sons.

No real abuse happened while hiking up Benta River Falls, but here's a pic of me and Odin emerging from one of the River's caves...

Yeah, mon.









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Send him to me. Its not jewelry to swap a case. It's lego.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unfortunately he's not doing a case swap. It seems he's trying to have the case fixed, but without buying any parts.

Apparently the jeweler or watchmaker says some of the bezel "teeth" are broken, whatever that means, but that's why he's asked for my number.

Like I said, this has become a cluster f**k, and I wish I hadn't tried to help as much as I did.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

hwa said:


> If all you're doing is swapping the guts from one case to another identical one, its as easy as pie.
> 
> Unscrew back
> Unscrew crown
> ...


Ahh, yes, but have you seen my hands --


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm a river boat captain!









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I'm a river boat captain!
> View attachment 15800836
> 
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


That looks like so much fun! I love boats! I need to get one. I have a boat slip at the place our RV/Trailer lives in Rehoboth Beach, but I havent been able to afford a boat yet.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> That looks like so much fun! I love boats! I need to get one. I have a boat slip at the place our RV/Trailer lives in Rehoboth Beach, but I havent been able to afford a boat yet.


It was a lot of fun. We did a four hour private tour, up that river, into some caves, then over to Booby Cay. Just got back about 45 minutes ago.

Getting our outbound covid tests in an hour, then flying home tomorrow.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

hwa said:


> Send him to me. Its not jewelry to swap a case. It's lego.


That's funny - lately I've been thinking of most of the mods I do, as exactly like lego. But for grown ups. And on a much smaller scale.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Podcast I did with the guys from Watch Gecko, for anyone who's into podcasts...









Time to Unwind Podcast Season 2, Ep #5: Chris Vail from NTH Watches


Chris Vail, the larger than life boss of American microbrand NTH watches, is in the spotlight for our latest episode of Time to Unwind. We get to know the man behind the brand, find out what made him start his own business, and turn up the heat as we discuss the contentious issue of homages...




www.watchgecko.com





https://anchor.fm/timetounwind/episodes/Season-2--Ep-5-Chris-Vail-from-NTH-Watches-etui3t

https://open.spotify.com/episode/52rmM8JtHg8LLrWZJb12pk?si=V26R7YROQXedyfm7he3YEg

Not live on Apple Podcasts yet, but should be soon.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Possibly interesting observation from this week...
> 
> I've been deliberately wearing the same watch, the Odin Blue, for all our big activities. Those have included ATV riding and cliff/cave diving.
> 
> ...


Majestic beast emerges from river...

Film at 11..

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

@docvail

Glad to see vacation is treating you well! Set your out of office until next week!

On a separate note, my Oberon is really messing up my plans. I have a moderately sized assortment of watches I consider to be _possibly_ better than mediocre, and I intend to rotate. I have caught myself wearing my NTH 3 times just this week alone. My other watches are jealous


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> @docvail
> 
> Glad to see vacation is treating you well! Set your out of office until next week!
> 
> On a separate note, my Oberon is really messing up my plans. I have a moderately sized assortment of watches I consider to be _possibly_ better than mediocre, and I intend to rotate. I have caught myself wearing my NTH 3 times just this week alone. My other watches are jealous


I don't know how to respond to this.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apropos of that podcast I did with Watch Gecko, I just spotted this in another thread.









LIV Watches


Take a look tell me what you think. Not my definition of affordable but under 1000 USD.LIV Rebel-AR Sebring Blue Automatic




www.watchuseek.com





Ceramic bezel.

Yeah, a 6.5 foot drop is pretty far, enough to shatter the crystal too, but my Scorpène has suffered worse abuse and still looks new.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.
View attachment 15802540


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alright, so, as we're flying home today, a quick vacation recap with some advice for anyone planning to travel to Jamaica. This was my fourth time, so I feel like I've gained some small amount of authority on the topic...

1. Most Caribbean Islands are the same, in terms of the experience, but Jamaica tends to be cheaper than many/most others, and its location tends to shield it from the big tropical storms and hurricanes.

We booked kind of last minute (March 6th), and Jamaica offered the lowest total cost, direct ~5 hour flights from Philly, and no need for a visa for Americans. Getting through customs here was a breeze, and maybe took 15-20 minutes.

2. All inclusive places are great, but there are better/cheaper alternatives to Sandals/Beaches.

We booked this place, the Royalton Negril, through Costo Travel, and compared to the other Islands and resorts, it was an insanely good deal, about $300 per night for a "swim-out" suite facing the ocean, including all meals, drinks, and tips.

3. Don't rule out non-inclusive.

All-inclusive places are great if you have kids and don't want to think about what you're paying to feed them, or what it costs to get yourself drunk. But they're often crowded, hard-partying mega-resorts, lacking in a personal touch. If you're not travelling with kids, don't mind paying for your booze one drink at a time, or like things a little more quiet, skip the all-inclusive places.

4. Skip the packaged tours promoted by the travel agencies and hotels, and hyped on Tripadvisor. They get commissions to promote them, and they're expensive for what you get. We did one on our last trip, and it was underwhelming.

Instead, make friends with the beach lifeguards on your first day. The lifeguard at our hotel last trip hooked us up with this local, kind of under the radar tour company, Morelife Tours. Here's a pic they posted of us drinking from coconuts right after our ATV tour:


__
http://instagr.am/p/CNF_4TIhF9U/

Instead of taking an hour long, crowded bus ride somewhere, and waiting in lines, we got personalized experiences, on our schedule, and it didn't cost us much, if anything more.

He took us to the out-of-the-way places for ATV riding, waterfall hikes, and cliff diving, places the hotels will tell you are closed, because they don't get a kickback.

The guy from Morelife Tours, Shaniel, arranged everything, including our entry fees and a cooler full of drinks.

We were the only customers at the ATV place (Cambleton Ventures, $90/person for 90 minutes), the Benta waterfalls ($20 per person for as long as we wanted), and the Blue Hole cave/cliff diving ($10 per person, for as long as we wanted).

Tuesday, the tour company charged us $180 for travel for four, and a cooler full of drinks. We were gone from 10 until 4. Wednesday, we paid $150, and were gone from 11 to 3.

This time, the lifeguard here hooked us up with the guys who took us on yesterday's four hour boat cruise, up the river, into some caves, and over to Booby Cay. That was just the two guys working the boat and us. $400 for four hours.

The big tour companies like Chukka are often owned by foreign investors. Going with the local alternatives is a better way to stimulate the local economy, and the locals appreciate it.

PS/Edit - I forgot - last year, we couldn't do ATV riding because the tour company, Chukka, required everyone to have a driver's license. At Cambleton, that wasn't a problem at all.

5. "World Famous" Rick's Cafe was underwhelming, though it was raining, and not very crowded. The highlight was seeing one of the staff do an 85 foot cliff dive. The lobster wasn't bad, but like many places during covid, the menu was pretty limited. If you need to do something stereotypically touristy, maybe check out Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville, just down the road a bit.

6. Pizza here sucks.

7. Skip the shopping close to the resorts. Get a driver to take you somewhere away from the resorts if you want to shop for anything. My wife paid $25 for a tube of sunblock in the hotel gift shop, and $30 for a bargain basement pair of water shoes.

8. Bring lots of American cash. $2700 Jamaican is USD $18. They'll gladly take US dollars, you won't have to walk around with thousands in local currency, and you'll know what you're paying. The ATM in the lobby here charges $6 for withdrawals, which are limited to $200 at a time.

9. Don't take money to the beach, if you want a good excuse not to stop and talk to every dope dealer, trinket seller, and parasailing guy you walk by.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> 6. Pizza here sucks.


Lol, who didnt see that coming. Have a safe flight home brother! I went past PHL yesterday on way to Langhorn. I miss flying!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't know how to respond to this.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Doc at a loss for wordz?

I suddenly feel a sense of accomplishment!

Glad the vacation went well, and thanks for the tips. We are looking for a family getaway option


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Mediocre said:


> Doc at a loss for wordz?
> 
> I suddenly feel a sense of accomplishment!
> 
> Glad the vacation went well, and thanks for the tips. We are looking for a family getaway option


Finally!! A WOT block!!


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> Apropos of that podcast I did with Watch Gecko, I just spotted this in another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This reminds me of when I was in college and one of my classmates in my inorganic chemistry lab came in PISSED that his iPhone had just shattered, cussing up a storm about how fragile the phone was and how Apple is so overrated. Anyway, once he calmed down a bit we asked him what happened. Apparently he dropped the phone in the stairwell and it bounced off the steps twice, slide into the gap between the stairs and fell down about half a story to the concrete floor below - no case on the phone.

Yes, some watches can survive a ~7 foot fall, but honestly if my ceramic bezel watch fell that far and didn't break I'd feel VERY lucky. Meanwhile some G-Shocks can survive being ran over by a tank.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I don't know how to respond to this.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Ragamuffin.......


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

3-1-1 said:


> It's a DLC day
> View attachment 15800195


Took a few days, but I agree.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Today, I mostly be wearing............










Cheerz,

Alan


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ragl said:


> Today, I mostly be wearing............
> 
> View attachment 15804409
> 
> ...


The way you phrase "Today, I mostly be wearing" wouldn't be related to Jessie would it 😉


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> The way you phrase "Today, I mostly be wearing" wouldn't be related to Jessie would it 😉


Yep, that be where it from.......... mostly.........

Cheerz,

Alan


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ragl said:


> Yep, that be where it from.......... mostly.........
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


Suits you Sir... Ohhh.. Suits you Sir !


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Ragl said:


> Today, I mostly be wearing............
> 
> View attachment 15804409
> 
> ...


What's the strap? That combo is gorgeous 

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

cghorr01 said:


> What's the strap? That combo is gorgeous
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


It's made by Darlena, an English strap manufacturer. It was purchased from here:






Watch Straps - Replacement Watch Straps - westonwatchstraps.co.uk


UK watch straps and bracelets. Buy quality watch straps and watch bracelets. Fast and free UK shipping. Rest of world only £2.50 flat rate!




www.westonwatchstraps.co.uk





The manufacturers website:









Home | Darlena Watchstraps - Darlena


Quality materials and exceptional craftsmanship since 1966 Explore our diverse product range: LEATHER WATCHSTRAPS Fine quality leather watchstraps including all types of leather and reptile skins. PUCCINI COLLECTION Finest Italian watchstraps for exclusive timepieces. WATCH BRACELETS The Darlena...




darlena.co.uk





I have just been scouring both web-sites, but it looks like this is a discontinued model, not surprising as I have had this particular strap for several years. I'll have another trawl tomorrow and see if it exists elsewhere.

Cheerz,

Alan


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Ragl said:


> View attachment 15804409


That dial is fantastic! I feel you on the mostly wearing. I used to wear one watch a day but with Work From Home there's some days where I've done up to 4 watches.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Are there any daylight or natural light pictures of the Thresher models? How blue is the blue? What does the black look like in real life?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

josiahg52 said:


> Are there any daylight or natural light pictures of the Thresher models? How blue is the blue? What does the black look like in real life?


See post #6357 for my dlc thresher.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

seatega said:


> That dial is fantastic! I feel you on the mostly wearing. I used to wear one watch a day but with Work From Home there's some days where I've done up to 4 watches.


Scorpene Bleu is certainly an attention grabber and is one of the few watches that I have that has actually received complimentary remarks from non-wis, the sunburst/fade of the dial is mesmerising and - for me - the Flieger 12-3-6-9 layout and hands are nigh on the perfect arrangement for a watch, can be a wee bit difficult to capture tho'......










As for work from home , yeh, it totally sux.......

Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Are there any daylight or natural light pictures of the Thresher models? How blue is the blue? What does the black look like in real life?


Several here - NTH 2K1 Thresher » Zaltek Reviews

The blue is very blue. Totally blue. Believe me. We know blue, and it's the best blue ever...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tis what I'm wearing also...
















This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Several here - NTH 2K1 Thresher » Zaltek Reviews
> 
> The blue is very blue. Totally blue. Believe me. We know blue, and it's the best blue ever...


I like these watches because I'm a Submariner. I showed my buddy the website and he immediately ordered a nearly-new Skpjack with date because his first boat was a _Skipjack_-class submarine. We both a got a little chuckle at the price: $585. That's the _Skipjack_'s hull number!

I'm interested in the Thresher because the _Thresher_-class combined a lot high-performance features still in use today into one vessel for the first time and then made history when its loss with all hands changed the US Navy's submarine program forever.

I'd like another blue diver but I just don't know if the blue Thresher is right for me. Is it wrong to say that it has a Tudor Pelagos feel to it? The color, not the watch itself. I've only seen the blue Pelagos twice; in late-2017 and again in mid-2019 so my recollection and perceptions could be skewed.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I've just put an another offer in for an NTH. I won't say where, and which as I don't want anyone else to come and gazump me.
If it's successful I'm hoping one of wus irregulars will be able to bring it over to me here England land.
Stay tuned. Might yet have my first NTH.


Question
Is there anybody here in the UK who would be able to swap the hands? It'd be for the NTH, using oem hands.
I'd want someone who had done it before... a lot. Not just someone who's watched a YouTube video about it, and thinks it looks easy.
I haven't decided I definitely will do an hand swap, but it's in my mind.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

davek35 said:


> View attachment 15807116


That looks green ?!
Looks great with the gilt.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

catsteeth said:


> I've just put an offer in for an NTH. I won't say where, and which as I don't want anyone else to come and gazump me.
> If it's successful I'm hoping one of wus irregulars will be able to bring it over to me here England land.
> Stay tuned. Might yet have my first NTH.
> 
> ...


I swapped the hands on my Barracuda and also on my Invicta, but I am no expert. If the watch is in the US then maybe you could ask @hwa or @jelliottz as they have both moded multiple NTH models.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> That looks green ?!
> Looks great with the gilt.


yeah, that's a real winner!


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

It is in the states. But I'd want to see it in the hand, before I decide whether I'd want to swap. So yes, a little inconvenient. But that's the way it's got to play.
Thanks for the info though Omega'


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

A hand swap isn't too difficult, tbh, _if _you have access to the proper tools. A seconds hand swap for my Glycine Combat 6 Vintage led me down the rabbit hole of sourcing parts from the web and building my own entire watch.

I was bored with my solid black and white Glycine, and decided I wanted a splash of red. I had a spare seconds hand from a Hamilton whose dial I had absolutely ruined attempting a stupid repair when I in all odds couldve returned it, so I decided to give it a go. Turned into all of a 10 minute project. As I said, that led to an entire watch build. I will say, _that_ can get frustrating, and getting a small seconds hand in place on its pin is a b*tch!

Standard C6 Vintage from the web









Mine


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

catsteeth said:


> That looks green ?!
> Looks great with the gilt.


It's blue... inside lighting isn't a good thing for pics. I take one outside soon.
The dial is a deeper blue than the bezel.
From, I believe, the last run of Barracuda Blue. No ghost stop in the crown.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> It is in the states. But I'd want to see it in the hand, before I decide whether I'd want to swap. So yes, a little inconvenient. But that's the way it's got to play.
> Thanks for the info though Omega'


Send it to a trusted friend in US to check. If it's good- what could be wrong?-swap the hands and send across the sea

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I like these watches because I'm a Submariner. I showed my buddy the website and he immediately ordered a nearly-new Skpjack with date because his first boat was a _Skipjack_-class submarine. We both a got a little chuckle at the price: $585. That's the _Skipjack_'s hull number!


Totally planned it that way.



josiahg52 said:


> Is it wrong to say that it has a Tudor Pelagos feel to it? The color, not the watch itself. I've only seen the blue Pelagos twice; in late-2017 and again in mid-2019 so my recollection and perceptions could be skewed.


It's not wrong. The Thresher took some inspiration from the Pelagos. But I think the blue of the Swiftsure/Thresher are fairly different from the Pelagos.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

davek35 said:


> It's blue... inside lighting isn't a good thing for pics. I take one outside soon.
> The dial is a deeper blue than the bezel.
> From, I believe, the last run of Barracuda Blue. No ghost stop in the crown.





JLittle said:


> yeah, that's a real winner!


Yeah I'm aware that it's blue, but thanks anyway Dave. But like JLittle says, it actually really works in green, (as well as the blue).


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

hwa said:


> Send it to a trusted friend in US to check. If it's good- what could be wrong?-swap the hands and send across the sea
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've got someone who is by all accounts both reliable, and a decent chap, that I can send it too in the states. (I'm sick of paying 25% which is what duty + handling equals).
But like I said to Omegafanboy, I'd like to see it in my hand before I do the hand swap. I might decide I'd like to keep them.

I've yet to hear back from them about my offer on the watch.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Much better...


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Wearing the Skipjack on a leather today. Very versatile design.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nurpur said:


> Wearing the Skipjack on a leather today. Very versatile design.
> 
> View attachment 15808454


I'm sure everyone wants to know more about that bezel insert - what watch it was made for, and where you got it.

Funnily enough, I was just checking out the Planet Oceans on Omega's website last night. I still love the orange bezel version best. I'm not sure they even make it any more, but if they do, it appears to only be available in 42mm (which I think I could pull off), and 45.5mm (which I know I can't), whereas the newer 39.5mm size only comes in black, blue, or white.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of Omega...tell me what you guys think is going on here...

When I look at Omega's website, no matter what watches are there, they all say "waiting list" under the images when you hover over any of them, suggesting everything is sold out (and we know they're not sold out of everything).

(This image shows the orange-bezel version, which may in fact be sold out, and I think it is, but this is how ALL the watches appear, not just that version).










But when you go to the product page, you can either provide your email, OR, contact a boutique, about one.

(Again, I happen to like this one, which may be sold out, but this is how every product page appears, I think).










I find this strange.

First, are they trying to send the subliminal message that everything is sold out, and there's a waiting list for everything? Are they trying to out-scarcity Rolex?

Of course I understand the value in "exclusivity", but I question the wisdom of making a potential customer think there's simply nothing for sale, at any price, when they actually do have watches in stock. I imagine many would move on, and look for some other watch, rather than contacting or visiting a boutique.

Secondly, is Omega just collecting email addresses, presumably for doing email marketing? What does that look like? My gut tells me email marketing is less effective, and may even be counter-productive, for "luxury" brands.

If the only point is to be able to email someone to say, "the watch you want is in stock", I'd think there's a better way to go about converting that website visitor into a sale, like showing exactly where the watch is available, within a specified distance of the visitor's IP address.

Lastly, when I click "contact a boutique", it opens up a page for me to find a store by city or zip code. But when I plug my zip into the site, it returns no results, even though I know there's a boutique literally ten minutes from me, at the mall (albeit, in the next zip code over), and another one about fifteen minutes down the road (also in another zip code, but not far away, at all).

There's a store locator link at the bottom of the site, which does seem to work better. Beyond the 3 boutiques in my area, it returned a list of every store within a six-hour drive, a total of 50 locations, which seems like overkill.

I struggle to see the use-case scenario here. I'm not driving 6 hours just to see if a watch is in stock, and if I'm going to order a watch to be shipped to me, then it almost doesn't matter where in the country the watch is, and I just want to know which stores have it available. I'm not calling or emailing 50 places to ask. Odds are, I'm going to give up after a few attempts, unless I'm seriously determined to find that specific watch.

Is this just horrible website / UX design, or is there some method to Omega's madness, which I simply don't get?


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm sure everyone wants to know more about that bezel insert - what watch it was made for, and where you got it.
> 
> Funnily enough, I was just checking out the Planet Oceans on Omega's website last night. I still love the orange bezel version best. I'm not sure they even make it any more, but if they do, it appears to only be available in 42mm (which I think I could pull off), and 45.5mm (which I know I can't), whereas the newer 39.5mm size only comes in black, blue, or white.


I posted the details for this a little while ago. A local ebay seller here in UK had this size and the one that usually would fit onto a 42mm PO. It fitted into the bezel nicely. Reason for doing this was that I prefer the thinner numbers on this insert compared to the original insert. I still would prefer an all black background but with the thinner font. I know each to their own.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Speaking of Omega...tell me what you guys think is going on here...
> 
> When I look at Omega's website, no matter what watches are there, they all say "waiting list" under the images when you hover over any of them, suggesting everything is sold out (and we know they're not sold out of everything).
> 
> ...


It is almost as though their algorithm pulled the most common phrase from the WUS Rolex forum and used it to capture e-mail addresses


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Totally planned it that way.
> 
> It's not wrong. The Thresher took some inspiration from the Pelagos. But I think the blue of the Swiftsure/Thresher are fairly different from the Pelagos.


That's a good answer and just got you a sale. It tipped the scale, anyway. I was probably going to buy it anyway. Eventually. Surprised I waited this long. Blue Thresher w/date incoming . . .


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

A waiting list that lasts as long as it takes for you to press Buy and then wait for the PayPal payment screen boot up.
Perhaps that's it ?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

2nd covid shot Monday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I'm just going to put this here


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nurpur said:


> I posted the details for this a little while ago. A local ebay seller here in UK had this size and the one that usually would fit onto a 42mm PO. It fitted into the bezel nicely. Reason for doing this was that I prefer the thinner numbers on this insert compared to the original insert. I still would prefer an all black background but with the thinner font. I know each to their own.


Now that you mention it, it does ring a bell.

The inner diameter is a bit larger on that one, is it not, such that there's a bigger gap at the crystal?


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Does anyone have a side-by-side photo of a 40mm model next to a 44mm? For those that have a Swiftsure or Thrasher, how do they wear? Bigger/smaller than the size would suggest? Thanks!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Does anyone have a side-by-side photo of a 40mm model next to a 44mm? For those that have a Swiftsure or Thrasher, how do they wear? Bigger/smaller than the size would suggest? Thanks!


How's this?









And my Swiftsure, well, um... it wears like a 44?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Does anyone have a side-by-side photo of a 40mm model next to a 44mm? For those that have a Swiftsure or Thrasher, how do they wear? Bigger/smaller than the size would suggest? Thanks!


The 2K1's wear smaller than their dimensions would suggest.









This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


Currently my daily driver. If only it had a fitted rubber strap. (Does it?) Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk




www.watchuseek.com


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> The 2K1's wear smaller than their dimensions would suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. 6.25 wrists and fits me pretty well imo









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I mentioned this before, it's just something I'm musing at the moment. I'm neither certain that I either want to, or will do so, but I might think of doing an Nth hand swap._ So appealing to the Nth experts. _

1 How many types of gilt hands appear on the Nth Subs. I'd want OEM gilt Nth hands only. Are they hard to get hold of; what types are there, how many different types ?

2 So far I really like the Amphion gilt sword hands. If the gilt matched the gilt on the brown Barracuda, that'd be something I'd definitely consider. Do they match? Does any one know?
(ie. gilt ≠ brass?)

3 Not only does the gilt have to match, the lume must match. Or at least not clash. I'm not keen on the cobbled together style, it's got to look like it would have been bought/designed like that.

4 I'd also consider gilt stick hands. Does something like that exist in the Nth universe?


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> I mentioned this before, it's just something I'm musing at the moment. I'm neither certain that I either want to, or will do so, but I might think of doing an Nth hand swap._ So appealing to the Nth experts. _
> 
> 1 How many types of gilt hands appear on the Nth Subs. I'd want OEM gilt Nth hands only. Are they hard to get hold of; what types are there, how many different types ?
> 
> ...


1 - only Doc can tell
4. NTH Carolina
2 & 3- there is a stunning mod floating about here with sword hands on a barracuda blue. No idea if they are OEM. Not that I think that it matters because..

I _highly_ doubt you will be able to get your hands on OEM hands (see what I did there) unless you are willing to buy an Amphion / Carolina / whichever watch has the hands you want to cannibalize. IIRC there were some plans on Doc's side to allow you to configure your watch, but that's been axed. And IIARC, he said before that selling parts like hands or dials is not gonna happen. So it'll be difficult, or at least expensive to do.

For what it's worth, I would love to see you successful in your endeavour. The barracuda brown has grown on me, and I am a sucker for sword hands. That should be a winning combination if you can pull it off

And for whatever this might be worth - if you find a Carolina for sale somewhere, send me a message. I'll buy it and sell you the hands. I'm none so picky about OEM or not, surely I'll find something that'll do it justice


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I mentioned this before, it's just something I'm musing at the moment. I'm neither certain that I either want to, or will do so, but I might think of doing an Nth hand swap._ So appealing to the Nth experts. _
> 
> 1 How many types of gilt hands appear on the Nth Subs. I'd want OEM gilt Nth hands only. Are they hard to get hold of; what types are there, how many different types ?
> 
> ...


I don't sell hands.

All the gilt hands we've done are IP plated "gold", with the same color.

And they all have the same C3 lume. So, in that way, they're all interchangeable.

Your best bet is to do a hands swap between two NTH models, unless you can source an aftermarket handset that will work.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> I mentioned this before, it's just something I'm musing at the moment. I'm neither certain that I either want to, or will do so, but I might think of doing an Nth hand swap._ So appealing to the Nth experts. _
> 
> 1 How many types of gilt hands appear on the Nth Subs. I'd want OEM gilt Nth hands only. Are they hard to get hold of; what types are there, how many different types ?
> 
> ...


I know Sam (@Omegafanboy ) has done it. He'd be a good person to ask...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> 1 - only Doc can tell
> 4. NTH Carolina
> 2 & 3- there is a stunning mod floating about here with sword hands on a barracuda blue. No idea if they are OEM. Not that I think that it matters because..
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> I don't sell hands.
> 
> All the gilt hands we've done are IP plated "gold", with the same color.
> 
> ...





dmjonez said:


> I know Sam (@Omegafanboy ) has done it. He'd be a good person to ask...


Thanks guys. That's told me exactly what I wanted to know, and also given me some useful pointers, and places to start.
👍🙂

@SchlachterSchmidt if I see a Carolina, I'll certainly let you know.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH Nazario Azzurro getting some sun...









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ok. So months and months ago I posted about a large project I was working on. A 40' long by 12' wide structure weighing in at about 40k lbs.

Well today we shipped it. I figure some of you may find this sh*t kinda interesting and cool. And there _is_ obligatory watch photos. Pic heavy. 






























That's me in the photo holding the guide line































And an escort to I-20 where we leave him. He'll pick up pilot vehicles at the Louisiana border, then it's all the way to North Carolina. 









Final weight, just shy of 46000lbs. And get this, it's technically a second story. It'll sit on stilts when placed on site. Underneath will be an Airbank system to provide a positive pressure environment in an emergency, as well as a 36hr duration battery backup system to power the UPS and aircon.

Now back to your regularly scheduled tomfoolery.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Ok. So months and months ago I posted about a large project I was working on. A 40' long by 12' wide structure weighing in at about 40k lbs.
> 
> Well today we shipped it. I figure some of you may find this sh*t kinda interesting and cool. And there _is_ obligatory watch photos. Pic heavy.
> View attachment 15810762
> ...


Still not as big as some Invictas I've seen.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

So you're the guy holding the guide rope ??
Cheers... I'd have never worked out that TheBearded is the guy with the yuge ginormous beard... 😜🤣


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*NOT MY LISTING*

Very rare, with-date, maxi-dial NTH Tiburón for sale on eBay.









NTH Tiburon with Date Tudor Submariner Homage Complete Automatic extra bracelet | eBay


Complete Kit (box, sleeve, card, extra links). In lightly used condition and well taken care of. What you see is what you get.



www.ebay.com


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Ok. So months and months ago I posted about a large project I was working on. A 40' long by 12' wide structure weighing in at about 40k lbs.
> 
> Well today we shipped it. I figure some of you may find this sh*t kinda interesting and cool. And there _is_ obligatory watch photos. Pic heavy.
> View attachment 15810762
> ...


Very cool! Exceeds weight for many roadways, that is YUGE!


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> *NOT MY LISTING*
> 
> Very rare, with-date, maxi-dial NTH Tiburón for sale on eBay.
> 
> ...


That there watch be Sold...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> That there watch be Sold...


Yep. I posted it here and to the NTH group on FB. Sold within 12 hours. Wonder if it was someone who saw my post about it.

We only made 20 of the Tiburón. 10 with date, and 10 no-date, back in mid-2018. I can't remember the last time I saw one for sale.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Well the very kind American wus member it seems is coming over much sooner than I thought. Looks like I'll be getting hold of the 'cuda much sooner than I expected.
What it is, is an excellent opportunity to get the usual suspects together for a mini watch conflab..... Yay!


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Bearded,

Fortuitious timing of your 1st Swifty photo.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, my Thresher is here. It's awesome.










The blue is not like anything I have. It's not as bright outside as it was the other day when I took a similar group shot but you get the idea. The anti-reflective coating also plays tricks with perceived color, I think.










This is my favorite view.










Love the starkness - simplicity, maybe? - of the watch, the shade of blue, and the date at 6 o'clock and that it didn't completely replace the 6 o'clock index. The polished chamfers are also a nice touch that I'd only seen on my Scurfa Bell Diver 1 before.

I'm keeping it. The only thing I would change is maybe have the word 'THRESHER' in a subdued orange in a similar fashion that the black Thresher has that nice blue-green text. Ultimately, I think that would not work as well as it does now or as I think it would in my head, however.

My buddy's Skipjack should arrive tomorrow. I was looking at pictures of it last night and I'm excited to see that in person. I like the date at 6 o'clock and that there is a lume plot there also, the broad arrow hands, and the polished chamfers.

ETA: My watch is one of the nearly new watces that NTH offers. The only marks that I think I see are one or two scrub marks where the bracelet pins into the clasp where the micro-adjust holes and around the clasp post. To be honest, I had already put the watch on my wrist and taken it off a couple of times before I thought to take a close look so I probably caused them. In any case, I'm very, very pleased with the watch's condition and always like getting a few dollars off.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Yep. I posted it here and to the NTH group on FB. Sold within 12 hours. Wonder if it was someone who saw my post about it.
> 
> We only made 20 of the Tiburón. 10 with date, and 10 no-date, back in mid-2018. I can't remember the last time I saw one for sale.


I wonder wonder wonder wonder who?


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Ok. So months and months ago I posted about a large project I was working on. A 40' long by 12' wide structure weighing in at about 40k lbs.
> 
> Well today we shipped it. I figure some of you may find this sh*t kinda interesting and cool. And there _is_ obligatory watch photos. Pic heavy.
> View attachment 15810762
> ...


I'm always interested in stuff: technical, scientific, engineering, historical, social, etc, etc.... I'm basically just very very nosey.

But what is it? I can see it says "chemsafe". Initially I thought mortuary, but on stilts?! Plus I can't see a chiller unit. Or is it a huge industrial meth' lab..... ? But really, no idea.

Put me out of my misery please, I'm worse than the curious cat. What is it? And why is it on stilts ???


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> I'm always interested in stuff: technical, scientific, engineering, historical, social, etc, etc.... I'm basically just very very nosey.
> 
> But what is it? I can see it says "chemsafe". Initially I thought mortuary, but on stilts?! Plus I can't see a chiller unit. Or is it a huge industrial meth' lab..... 😉 But really, no idea.
> 
> Put me out of my misery please, I'm worse than the curious cat. What is it? And why is it on stilts ???


It's technically a "safe haven". It will be installed and used at a petrochem site as some kind of control room. The company I work for builds refuge and life support systems. I do the electrical, been with this company about 18 months. Close to 16 years in the trade, and almost 10 years as a Journeyman Electrician.

So in the event of an emergency at this specific site, from either the interior or exterior they can, at the push of a button "lock" the entire structure down from outside air. Push the button, three bubble tight dampers(air intake & exhaust, plus one for the "fart fan") close in about 30-40 seconds, and a positive pressure system kicks in to keep toxic/caustic gasses out, and the occupants safe. They've got Honeywell interior and exterior gas monitoring systems as well as my companies proprietary gas monitors installed. As well as a stand alone CO2 scrubber.

Why it'll be on stilts, I have no clue outside of it gives the site the ability to bring in their main power source, as well as connect the plumbing(we gave 'em a sh*tter and a shower per request).

According to the engineers I worked with, nothing like it has been built before. There's similar things that are built on site, but a transportable one, first of it's kind(so they tell me).



^Gurthang54 said:


> Bearded,
> 
> Fortuitious timing of your 1st Swifty photo.


Which photo, mate? You've lost me, I've posted quite a few shots of my Swifty.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Bearded,

This one, first Swifty photo in your post about the chemsafe project

















Nearly perfect 'heroic watch' photo w/ the 'perfect' time.... it's all just so 'perfect'.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Bearded,
> 
> This one, first Swifty photo in your post about the chemsafe project
> 
> ...


Hah! Fortuitous indeed! I can't believe I didnt notice that(seriously, that was not staged, my friends).


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> It's technically a "safe haven". It will be installed and used at a petrochem site as some kind of control room. The company I work for builds refuge and life support systems. I do the electrical, been with this company about 18 months. Close to 16 years in the trade, and almost 10 years as a Journeyman Electrician.
> 
> So in the event of an emergency at this specific site, from either the interior or exterior they can, at the push of a button "lock" the entire structure down from outside air. Push the button, three bubble tight dampers(air intake & exhaust, plus one for the "fart fan") close in about 30-40 seconds, and a positive pressure system kicks in to keep toxic/caustic gasses out, and the occupants safe. They've got Honeywell interior and exterior gas monitoring systems as well as my companies proprietary gas monitors installed. As well as a stand alone CO2 scrubber.
> 
> ...


Cheers, that's kinda bonkers. But makes sense, and is very cool


^Gurthang54 said:


> Bearded,
> 
> Fortuitious timing of your 1st Swifty photo.


LOL..I didn't notice that either. The ultimate watch cliché


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

The wind worked out today, got out and flew a kite with the family


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

josiahg52 said:


> Well, my Thresher is here. It's awesome.
> 
> View attachment 15812385
> 
> ...


Where did you get that flattened shark mesh on the far left Scurfa??

I absolutely love the Ploprof style Flattened S.M. I bought some a while back for about £30. However, it turned up and the flattening was so minimal it was almost unnoticeable.
I find when it's all just rounded and shiny/polished, it doesn't look right.

I'd happily spend 4 times as much on a really good quality one where the flattening is really top notch.

This is my supposedly flattened mesh. The flat surfaces show only at exactly the right angle and light. But because it's polished (unlike the proplof), and not that flat, I don't wear it. The bits they did make really flat are the removable link pieces.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

catsteeth said:


> Where did you get that flattened shark mesh on the far left Scurfa??
> 
> I absolutely love the Ploprof style Flattened S.M. I bought some a while back for about £30. However, it turned up and the flattening was so minimal it was almost unnoticeable.
> I find when it's all just rounded and shiny/polished, it doesn't look right.
> ...


Strapcode is where I got the one for the Scurfa.









SCURFA WATCHES - 2020, 2021 & 2022


double post




www.watchuseek.com





I also have a Staib mesh that I've used with a Longines and another Scurfa. Both are 22mm lug watches. . .









Happy new year!


Happy new year, y'all, from the eastern coast of the United States!




www.watchuseek.com


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Discovered that this Geckota beads of rice bracelet I bought years ago fits okay on the Thresher.



















Still have that Staib mesh mentioned in the post above. I may take it off the Longines and give it a try on the Thresher.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

josiahg52 said:


> Strapcode is where I got the one for the Scurfa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got a great SE2 from strap code. Last time I looked they didn't have any mesh, but I'll look again.
Thank you


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

catsteeth said:


> I got a great SE2 from strap code. Last time I looked they didn't have any mesh, but I'll look again.
> Thank you


Search for "shark" on their site. I think mine was the tapered with V-clasp. I wanted the "unfinished" one with open ends near the head.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Thresher now on Staib mesh:


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Odin on the new Barton rubber/cordura jawn


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

I'm way late to the game but glad I finally joined in. I was looking at the Nazario Vino Rosso recently, loving the look but finally convincing myself that I really didn't need another diver. Heck, I don't need another watch, period. Then I saw one pop up on the for sale board and finally pulled the trigger. I'm not sure why I waited so long. Doc, you've done some really nice work! Since I didn't buy directly from you, how about I buy you a beer once the GTGs start back up. I'm just down the road in Lancaster, so wouldn't be a big deal to hop the train if you have one near Philly.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shrewboy said:


> I'm way late to the game but glad I finally joined in. I was looking at the Nazario Vino Rosso recently, loving the look but finally convincing myself that I really didn't need another diver. Heck, I don't need another watch, period. Then I saw one pop up on the for sale board and finally pulled the trigger. I'm not sure why I waited so long. Doc, you've done some really nice work! Since I didn't buy directly from you, how about I buy you a beer once the GTGs start back up. I'm just down the road in Lancaster, so wouldn't be a big deal to hop the train if you have one near Philly.
> 
> View attachment 15817139


I've been known to imbibe, from time to time...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I've been known to imbibe, from time to time...


The dude imbibes.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Wearing this and thinking about its namesake, the USS _Thresher _(SSN 593).










The _Thresher_ was lost shortly before 0920 EDT today in 1963.

If you're unfamiliar with her loss, I can recommend the book "The Death of the USS _Thresher_" by Norman Polmar.

If you want a more technical dive into the subject, look at "Loss of the USS _Thresher_" which contains the (unfortunately) redacted testimony given before the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy. I believe this testimony may be available on the internet also.

Beginning late last year, the US Navy began releasing portions of the Court of Inquiry testimony which commenced on 11 April 1963. It is available at the SecNav's FOIA Hot Topics website.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Josiah,

I was 9 when the Thresher was lost, it was all over the local news and papers. There were a number of PNS workers in my small town, none were lost but all had worked on the 593. They were all veterans and members of the American Legion, friends w/ my Dad. I remember the mention of the Tresher during the next Sundays' Mass. A sober reminder of all the men and women that choose to defend us.

I've often thought a fitting tribute to all that served on each boat in NTHs' line would be the hull # inscribed on the caseback.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Josiah,
> 
> I was 9 when the Thresher was lost, it was all over the local news and papers. There were a number of PNS workers in my small town, none were lost but all had worked on the 593. They were all veterans and members of the American Legion, friends w/ my Dad. I remember the mention of the Tresher during the next Sundays' Mass. A sober reminder of all the men and women that choose to defend us.
> 
> I've often thought a fitting tribute to all that served on each boat in NTHs' line would be the hull # inscribed on the caseback.


I think a brief history of each ship/class in the watch's description would be a nice touch also. Just a few lines. On the other hand, I'm sure more than a few look it up themselves and that's pretty cool also.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...the Thresher is a little different than the other Subs names.

All the NTH Subs and 2K1's are named after a _class_ of submarines, not a specific boat, per se.

However, when we started naming the Subs, we were just looking at a list of all submarine classes from navies around the world. At the time, I didn't realize that most or all of the classes appear to be named after the first boat of that class.

So obviously, one could argue they're named after both the class, and that lead boat, by default, I guess, even though I've never thought of the names that way.

The Thresher class name was changed to "Permit" when the USS Thresher sank, resulting in people associating the 2K1 model's name with that specific boat, as opposed to the entire class, which is how I've always viewed the Subs' names.

In my mind, it's not named after that boat, but rather after the Thresher class, even if the name has since been changed to Permit. We didn't use "Permit", because Thresher sounds better.

The convention of naming them after various submarine classes was a solution we found to a problem we had before NTH launched. Looking at all the diving watches out there, especially from microbrands, we saw that a lot were named after various sea creatures, real and fictional, mythical gods of the deep, etc.

With 8 different Subs designs to start, we needed to find a genre of names that was relatively virgin territory, and would tie them all together under one umbrella, and wouldn't lead us to spending a lot of time scouring the web searching for unused names of deep-sea fish or mythical characters. There are dozens of submarine classes to choose from, and most have never been used as names for watches.

Even though I served in the military, and even though the NTH Subs are named after various countries' classes of naval submarines, with designs inspired by military-issue diving watches, I've always been hesitant to play up the military history angle.

Among a handful of reasons, I don't really want to invite accusations of "stolen valor", or turn off people who might be happier not knowing where the names come from, or have ultra-patriots screaming about naming a watch made in China after a US naval ship.

It also cuts down on the text on the website, which we think is a good thing. It also alleviates any pressure we might feel to likewise "check the box" for other models, like the DevilRay and Tropics, where there is no such history behind the model names.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> So...the Thresher is a little different than the other Subs names.
> 
> All the NTH Subs and 2K1's are named after a _class_ of submarines, not a specific boat, per se.
> 
> ...


Just waiting on your "Seawolf".


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> So...the Thresher is a little different than the other Subs names.
> 
> All the NTH Subs and 2K1's are named after a _class_ of submarines, not a specific boat, per se.
> 
> ...


That makes sense and I kind of agree. It has the possibility of becoming difficult to parse all of the information. No doubt, there would be some who take offense to some arbitrary detail or lack of detail. Those who know, know and the rest see cool watches.

Seawolf would just be a cool name. Your first titanium could be one of the NATO reporting names for the few Russian titanium-hulled submarines.

It seems so hard to run a business these days.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I've tried to avoid using model names which are very closely associated with a much bigger brand, whether the brand has the model name trademarked or not.

Seawolf seems closely associated with Zodiac, so I think we'll pass on that one.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> I've tried to avoid using model names which are very closely associated with a much bigger brand, whether the brand has the model name trademarked or not.
> 
> Seawolf seems closely associated with Zodiac, so I think we'll pass on that one.


Yes, the Sea Wolf. Breitling Avenger Seawolf is another. I think that's a good plan. I'm just looking forward to what else comes out from NTH.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Any update on the new 39mm case? Available when? Dials offered? Thanks.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

If we're talking brand names can I ask why NTH ??

I'm sure you've been asked s million times already, but I'd like to know.
I always thought it was NTH: as in N to the X degree, or N+1, N in algebra.... N as a mathematical cipher.

Or am I doing usual and barking up the wrong tree. Or worse, actually barking in the wrong forest..


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> If we're talking brand names can I ask why NTH ??
> 
> I'm sure you've been asked s million times already, but I'd like to know.
> I always thought it was NTH: as in N to the X degree, or N+1, N in algebra.... N as a mathematical cipher.
> ...


It's actually stated on the website. Nod To History, or built to the Nth degree.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> It's actually stated on the website. Nod To History, or built to the Nth degree.


That'll be why. I don't think I've ever read the 'about the company' page of any product in my life. Google the product itself, and product comparisons I do that.

Thank you


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Any update on the new 39mm case? Available when? Dials offered? Thanks.


Stay tuned.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

Old reliable today


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Yes, the Sea Wolf. Breitling Avenger Seawolf is another. I think that's a good plan. I'm just looking forward to what else comes out from NTH.


I always forget about the Breitling.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

RickHoliday said:


> Old reliable today
> 
> View attachment 15819231
> View attachment 15819232


Beautiful. Strap details, please?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

39mm? Is that something separate from re-worked sub case w/ Permit class crown guards? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Today's pick, or should I say pic?...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

catsteeth said:


> If we're talking brand names can I ask why NTH ??
> 
> I'm sure you've been asked s million times already, but I'd like to know.
> I always thought it was NTH: as in N to the X degree, or N+1, N in algebra.... N as a mathematical cipher.
> ...


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Mediocre said:


> The wind worked out today, got out and flew a kite with the family
> 
> View attachment 15813284


That strap looks great with the Oberon. The texture kind of matches the textured dial.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ike2 said:


> That strap looks great with the Oberon. The texture kind of matches the textured dial.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks! The combo is extremely comfortable as well. Artem black stitch


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The only update I have...










That's the updated, v.2 case for the 40mm Subs, now in production for a late June / early July delivery.

Overall dimensions are unchanged - 40mm at the bezel, 48mm lug length, 11.5mm thickness, 20mm lugs, with a bracelet tapering to an 18mm clasp.

The mid-case will be slightly smaller than the bezel and current mid-case. It'll be 39mm if you measure between the lugs, from 12-to-6, and 38.5mm from 2-to-8. Having the bezel overhang the mid-case a bit should make it easier to grip and turn. I don't know, and won't claim that the slightly smaller mid-case will make it wear any smaller than the current gen Subs.

As you can see, the case is basically a scaled-down version of the 2K1's, sort of.

We had to keep the lug length the same if we wanted the bracelets to be interchangeable between the v.1 and v.2 versions of the case. And we kept the crown, bezel insert, and dial opening the same, so that the dials, hands, crowns and bezel inserts are all interchangeable. The v.2 Subs case is proportionally "longer" than the 2K1's (the difference between the bezel diameter and lug length is more with the 40mm Subs than with the 2K1's). There are a few other very subtle differences as well.

*For the first release in June / July, we'll be making the Barracuda Vintage Black, Näcken Modern Black, and Näcken Modern Blue. Just those three models. *

The only thing that will be "new" for this first release is that *we're changing the dial color on the Näcken Modern Blue. It'll be the same as the color we used on the Odin Blue*, which is as close a match as we've found to the blue bezel inserts.

We'll be making more of some of the other versions in future releases, and we're working on some new versions.

For the second release, late this year, I'm thinking we'll probably make more of the original *Scorpène, in black, with the 60 minute bezel*, and maybe more of the *Näcken Vintage White*. We haven't made either of those since mid-2019.

The *Barracuda Blue* might re-appear at some point, maybe next year. It also hasn't been produced since 2019.

I'm sure the *Barracuda Polar White* will make another appearance, beyond the 10 no-dates being assembled for next month (along with 10 Amphion Commandos, 10 Dolphin Magentas, and 10 Odin Blue - 5 date and 5 no-date for each of those 3 versions). Probably early next year.

I don't know if or when we'll be making more of the other versions. I feel like a lot of them are nearing their sell-by date, so we might retire the Amphions, the Bahia, the Dolphins, the Nazarios, the Oberons, the Odins, the Santa Cruz, the Skipjack, the Tikuna, the Vanguard, and the less popular versions of the Barracuda, Näcken, and Scorpène.

When I look at the list of all the different versions, there are only about 4-6 that seem popular enough to keep making over and over again.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I'm just anxious to see what the future holds for the 2K1s. 

I'm dreaming of Sunburst Anthracite....


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Gray and dreary day in Berlin needs a pretty watch to lighten the day










And even though I've seen the drawings of the new 40mm sub before, it's great to see them again. Very much looking forward to their release. Curious how the Odin blue dial colour will look on the Nacken


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Good news with the v2 Subs. I was hoping the Näcken Modern Black would be among the initial models, so I am happy to hear it will be available soon.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Doc that update is great news. Looking forward to the new release and adding one to my collection!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Monday wear
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Doc,

Thanks for your reply, I agree w/ your point about not getting into the details of any one sub or even an entire class of boats. And I get the point about 'stolen valor', marking a watch w/ a hull # does put forward the idea that it was carried by a crew member.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> Good news with the v2 Subs. I was hoping the Näcken Modern Black would be among the initial models, so I am happy to hear it will be available soon.


The Modern Black, though not quite as popular as the Modern Blue, or Barracuda Vintage Black, has always been a strong seller. With all the wild dive watch designs out there, I think some folks appreciate its monochromatic simplicity.

We haven't made it since October last year, and last I checked, there were only a handful of pieces left from that release.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Other stuff regarding upcoming releases...

We haven't used that "Old Radium" color very much with recent releases, other than with the Santa Cruz. 

Just judging by what I see people saying online, it seems like people don't like it, calling it "fake patina". Although, I recently read what I thought was a persuasive argument in favor of it, from someone basically suggesting that we stop calling it that, and just recognize that it's a color choice, one which sometimes works well within a design (as it seems to with the Santa Cruz).

Anyway, I'm thinking we won't be using it much, if at all, on future designs, unless and until it comes back into vogue, or unless it just seems to make perfect sense. I don't think we'll be using it just for the sake of making something look old.

Instead, I think we'll limit lume choices to either C3 or BGW9, which simplifies things a lot when it comes to stocking replacement parts. 

We've scaled back on using that "sandpaper" dial texture seen on the vintage versions of the Näcken. I see more brands have been using it, and I've been feeling like it's getting played out. I want to explore some other, less common dial textures with our new designs. We'll likely keep using it for some full-lume dial models, though, where the texture seems to be softened a bit, leading me to label it "rice paper". 

I've been looking to standardize the colors we use across all models, so that we have one "official" shade of blue (the one we used on the Odin, Swiftsure, and Thresher), one red, one orange (the one used on the v.1 DevilRay), etc. I feel like we've done the work to find the "right" shades, and so we shouldn't keep doing it over and over again. Keeping track of what shade of blue we used on this or that model gets harder when the models start to proliferate.

We'll have more DevilRays coming mid-year. For the next release, we'll be bringing back the sunburst blue, and the original turquoise and orange, but not the black or the white, as there are still a handful of those two colorways left available (all at Intowatch in S.Korea). I think we'll also see an exclusive edition for one of our retail partners.

Everything we make this year will be very limited production. Tentatively, we're looking at just two releases of the v.2 40mm Subs, two releases of the DevilRay, and two releases of the Tropics. With every release, we'll be assembling just 25 pieces per variation.

Finally - there's something like 200 pieces left of the v.1 Subs, total, around the world. On average, it's 5 per variation, but for many, we're down to the last 1 or 2 pieces. If you like that v.1 case, and any of those designs, better get them before they're gone, as most won't ever be seen again.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Turquoise or orange Devil Ray will be tempting. But which...?

I am not and never was a fan of the old radium lume, but it does make sense on watches with white dials to provide some contrast. Alternately, I am wild for C7 green lume on white dials specifically, but also black... not that I'm suggesting it for NTH models, but it does look sweet on some watches, like Wolbrook, for instance.

Wondering: Are there PVD black versions of the Sub v.2 planned for the initial release?
Also: Are you considering any other bracelet variations? If so, would request an H-link version for consideration...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Im looking forward to seeing the V2 Subs! although its gonna take some getting used to when looking at those crown guards. I like them, I just have to get used to seeing them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Turquoise or orange Devil Ray will be tempting. But which...?
> 
> I am not and never was a fan of the old radium lume, but it does make sense on watches with white dials to provide some contrast. Alternately, I am wild for C7 green lume on white dials specifically, but also black... not that I'm suggesting it for NTH models, but it does look sweet on some watches, like Wolbrook, for instance.
> 
> ...


We've used C5, which is a pale mint green, but not C7, which appears to be dark green, and not glow as brightly. I liked the C5 when we used it (on the v.1 Azores Mint, and on the black and white dials of the v.1 DevilRay). Still not sure we'll use it again.

No current plans to make more DLC cases/bracelets. It's one of those things - people occasionally ask for them, and others will chime in to say they also like them, but then we make them, and they don't sell as well.

We made 10% of the last 500 Subs in DLC, and they now make up slightly more than 10% of the remaining inventory, which is sort of what I expected. Regardless, I just don't see the point, unless and until our sales volume is high enough to make limited runs worth it. My factory doesn't love it when I ask them to whip up 5 DLC and 20 stainless, instead of just 25 stainless.

No plans for alternative bracelet versions beyond the standard 3-link Oyster and the BOR. I like H-links, too, but the two bracelet versions we use are more in keeping with the vintage design theme.

And no, before anyone asks, I am not considering jubilee, or any other bracelet styles for that matter. We've got a 300 piece MOQ on bracelets, so just having 2 options complicates my life enough, thank you very much.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm.. Tag finally did the update...









Imo NTH did it better.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yikes.

I really want to like Tag Aquaracers. But I don't.

That one especially.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> ...No current plans to make more DLC cases/bracelets. It's one of those things - people occasionally ask for them, and others will chime in to say they also like them, but then we make them, and they don't sell as well.
> 
> We made 10% of the last 500 Subs in DLC, and they now make up slightly more than 10% of the remaining inventory, which is sort of what I expected. Regardless, I just don't see the point, unless and until our sales volume is high enough to make limited runs worth it. My factory doesn't love it when I ask them to whip up 5 DLC and 20 stainless, instead of just 25 stainless.
> 
> ...


I just looked at the numbers, and see I was wrong. DLC made up ~9% of the 2K1 production, and exactly 8% of the last two Subs releases. DLC makes up 8% of the remaining 2K1 inventory, and 11% of remaining Subs inventory, though I think part of the reason that number is as high as it is may be because we doubled up on the DLC Barracuda Vintage Black.

Either way, comparing the remaining inventory numbers to the assembly numbers, I feel like they validate my earlier decision to keep the DLC numbers low, no more than 10% of total production.

Likewise, after wrestling with how many Subs to assemble with the BOR bracelet, we settled on 20%, then bumped it to 21% by swapping a few bracelets out, in order to rebalance inventory. Currently, 17% of remaining inventory is on the BOR, so there again, I feel like that number validates the 20% allocation, more or less.

My point is - I feel like the vast majority of things people ask me to change, or variations people request, will have minimal benefit to sales, and the numbers seem to bear that out. I feel like the choices we're making with the product hit center-mass for most of the market, and we're avoiding making any big bets on low-percentage plays.

I don't think an H-link would improve sales over the oyster, nor do I think a jubilee would sell better than the BOR. I think at best, they'd be a push, or worse, we'd lose sales.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said, ".....v.2 case for the 40mm Subs.... Having the bezel overhang the mid-case a bit should make it easier to grip and turn. "

I was at one of the local Rolex/Tudor/PP, etc. AD stores last week talking to my sales guy who is a true watch geek. I handed him my NTH and he turned the bezel saying that he loved how the edge of the bezel was cut so you _can_ get an excellent grip on it.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

davek35 said:


> docvail said, ".....v.2 case for the 40mm Subs.... Having the bezel overhang the mid-case a bit should make it easier to grip and turn. "
> 
> I was at one of the local Rolex/Tudor/PP, etc. AD stores last week talking to my sales guy who is a true watch geek. I handed him my NTH and he turned the bezel saying that he loved how the edge of the bezel was cut so you _can_ get an excellent grip on it.


I've said this a couple of times too, but a crenellated bezel is my favourite type of bezel. To do it well is not cheap either.

It's one of the first things I ever noticed about the NTH Subs, the bezel crenellation, the case faceting, and over all surface finishing.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Has anyone had any luck getting the Steinhart Ocean39 20mm-16mm tapered bracelet to fit the NTH case?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I've said this a couple of times too, but a crenellated bezel is my favourite type of bezel. To do it well is not cheap either.
> 
> It's one of the first things I ever noticed about the NTH Subs, the bezel crenellation, the case faceting, and over all surface finishing.


I've never said this, but any word I need to look up, like "crenellated", is automatically a silly word, in my opinion.

"Gear-tooth" bezel.

There you go. Makes perfect sense.

Don't even get me started on "queue".

Seems like those last two letters are completely unnecessary.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I've never said this, but any word I need to look up, like "crenellated", is automatically a silly word, in my opinion.
> 
> "Gear-tooth" bezel.
> 
> ...


If you live in the UK where there's a crenellated castle probably no further away from where ever you are, than the distance you could chuck a biscuit. Then "crenellated" is a word you would likely be familiar with....


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> distance you could chuck a biscuit.


Do you mean a _cookie_? Or an _actual_ biscuit?

Both a definitely able to be chucked.

This here Jammie Dodger is a gol'dang cookie.









This here is a biscuit.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Do you mean a _cookie_? Or an _actual_ biscuit?
> 
> Both a definitely able to be chucked.
> 
> ...


It's all in the aerodynamics of course... any fool would know that 😉

I'm just astonished that in America you differentiate between biscuits and cookies. That's like saying push bikes and bicycles are different...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> It's all in the aerodynamics of course... any fool would know that 😉
> 
> I'm just astonished that in America you differentiate between biscuits and cookies. That's like saying push bikes and bicycles are different...


This is why we fought a war...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> This is why we fought a war...


Hang on .. biscuits ?? I thought we fought over tea ??
Because you guys thought the tea tasted better being _in_ the harbour, and not _on_ the quay...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

catsteeth said:


> It's all in the aerodynamics of course... any fool would know that
> 
> I'm just astonished that in America you differentiate between biscuits and cookies. That's like saying push bikes and bicycles are different...


The hell is a push bike? You Brits and your Spanners. It's a wrench dammit. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> push





catsteeth said:


> Hang on .. biscuits ?? I thought we fought over tea ??
> Because you guys thought the tea tasted better being _in_ the harbour, and not _on_ the quay...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

This thread just got hilarious 

Now I want cookies 

Or biscuits?

Eh, I'm easy to please, I'll take either with a smile


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> The hell is a push bike? You Brits and your Spanners. It's a wrench dammit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol

Ehhh ?? These are all the rage here. This is me on my new fangled push bike..


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15825148


Lol.

All I can say, is now I know why only an Englishman can make a decent cup tea.

....

My Aunt came back from America a while ago. She couldn't stop going on about how her hosts would put the teabag in _after_ the hot water. It gave her palpaitations just to talk about it.
It still gives me the shivers just recounting the story.... Forget your Blair Witches and Evil Deads, that's real horror ?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This is a chuck:










Im not sure where the biscuit goes as there is no gravy. Can't have one without the other!


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cookie Monster Cookies GIF by Sesame Street - Find & Share on GIPHY]Cookie Monster Cookies GIF by Sesame Street - Find & Share on GIPHY

HGe4zsOVo7Jvy[/MEDIA]]via GIPHY


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Stroopwaffles. Just sayin"


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Stroopwaffles. Just sayin"


Stroopwaffles are the sh*t


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Do you mean a _cookie_? Or an _actual_ biscuit?
> 
> Both a definitely able to be chucked.
> 
> ...


Wait now. That's not a biscuit.

Let's add another language layer of confusion to it (Netherlands). A biscuit is a specific type of cookie, and specifically the most boring type. This is a biscuit:


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Don't even start on "pie." That difference has screwed me up on several different continents.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Did someone say...... Stroopwafels........










Mmmm, chomp, snoffle gronff..........

Cheerz,

Alan


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ragl said:


> Did someone say...... Stroopwafels........
> 
> View attachment 15825905
> 
> ...


I am so glad to actually find them in a store! For me in TX, World Market sells them.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> I am so glad to actually find them in a store! For me in TX, World Market sells them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yeah, me likewise. Serious Watches did for me when they planted Stroopwafels in the shipment of my Scorpene, have been a total dependent slave to the drug ever since........

Cheerz,

Alan


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I’m just over here having a bag of crisps while waiting for the oil to heat up so I can fry up some chips for lunch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Lol.
> 
> All I can say, is now I know why only an Englishman can make a decent cup tea.
> 
> ...


I'm one of the few adult Americans I know who never developed a taste for coffee, but I've always enjoyed tea.

Don't know if this is "right", but I put the bag in the water, then heat the water.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Yeah, me likewise. Serious Watches did for me when they planted Stroopwafels in the shipment of my Scorpene, have been a total dependent slave to the drug ever since........
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


I mostly ship watches TO Serious Watches, not get them FROM Serious, but I did get one, my wife's Holland.

Sadly, that shipment did NOT include any stroopwafel.

That was almost 2 years ago, and as you can see, I haven't forgotten it. The longing remains.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

mistake, try again later....


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm one of the few adult Americans I know who never developed a taste for coffee, but I've always enjoyed tea.
> 
> Don't know if this is "right", but I put the bag in the water, then heat the water.


Errrr.... With English tea or teabags that'd give a quite '_steeped_' drink.
But what I noticed when I went to America is that your tea or teabags are literally nothing like ours. I think that's because American teabags are used mainly for iced tea, which is a totally different drink.
If you like your tea that way, that's fine of course. Everyone has their own way to do it.

I'm very fussy about my tea too. Just like I prefer to grind my coffee beans at home, I have ready ground for when I can't be bothered.
Similarly I usually have loose leaf tea in a pot, but sometimes I can't be bothered and just have a teabag in a cup, (pouring boiling water on to it).


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Hehehe.....


....teabag


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Hehehe.....
> 
> ....teabag


I'm a mature adult who doesn't laugh at teenage humour......?

?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> Hehehe.....
> 
> ....teabag


hahaha, I was thinking it.. and you said it..


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Don't even get me started on "queue".
> 
> Seems like those last two letters are completely unnecessary.


Actually, just the first letter is necessary. The rest are silent. But they we would argue about a line of people, vs. a traditional style of cooking in the USA. And further, what constitutes "real" 'Q, based on where it's made...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

My favorite part of my job is the variety I find as I wander about. Food, people, views. It's all good.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Errrr.... With English tea or teabags that'd give a quite '_steeped_' drink.
> But what I noticed when I went to America is that your tea or teabags are literally nothing like ours. I think that's because American teabags are used mainly for iced tea, which is a totally different drink.
> If you like your tea that way, that's fine of course. Everyone has their own way to do it.
> 
> ...


I do like me some Iced Tea. You got me there.

But I have also ingested a lot of hot tea. And I admit I'm baffled as to how our tea differs so much from yours, and regret I didn't put any effort into experiencing English-made tea while I was there.


----------



## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> Don't know if this is "right", but I put the bag in the water, then heat the water.












Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'm one of the few adult Americans I know who never developed a taste for coffee, but I've always enjoyed tea.
> 
> Don't know if this is "right", but I put the bag in the water, then heat the water.


No coffee OR tea for me


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ragl said:


> Cookie Monster Cookies GIF by Sesame Street - Find & Share on GIPHY]Cookie Monster Cookies GIF by Sesame Street - Find & Share on GIPHY
> 
> HGe4zsOVo7Jvy[/MEDIA]]via GIPHY


I felt oddly compelled to like this post


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm one of the few adult Americans I know who never developed a taste for coffee, but I've always enjoyed tea.
> 
> Don't know if this is "right", but I put the bag in the water, then heat the water.


I miss tea. Grew up on sweet tea, learned about quality green tea while in Asia for work.

The my urologist informed me it contributed to kidney stones

Now I have learned to drink coffee. The only tea is a bit of kombucha for health.

Did I mention I miss tea?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

My wife was a big tea drinker until she got kidney stones. No more tea for her.

Im a life long coffee drinker. No stones!


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> My wife was a big tea drinker until she got kidney stones. No more tea for her.
> 
> Im a life long coffee drinker. No stones!


To clarify, I liked this post because I empathize, not because I am glad to read it


----------



## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> I miss tea. Grew up on sweet tea, learned about quality green tea while in Asia for work.
> 
> The my urologist informed me it contributed to kidney stones
> 
> ...





Rhorya said:


> My wife was a big tea drinker until she got kidney stones. No more tea for her.
> 
> Im a life long coffee drinker. No stones!


I grew up in a family of coffee drinkers and never thought much of tea. Then I lived and worked overseas with mostly British expats and ended up falling in love with a nice cuppa when we got back to the compound. A few years ago I had my first bout with stones but didn't know tea made a difference. Two years ago my doctor informed me after yet another surgery that tea wasn't something I should be drinking anymore. I miss a nice cup of PG Tips all the time. I don't think about it every day anymore but at least weekly I find myself wanting a cup.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

nonfatproduct said:


> I grew up in a family of coffee drinkers and never thought much of tea. Then I lived and worked overseas with mostly British expats and ended up falling in love with a nice cuppa when we got back to the compound. A few years ago I had my first bout with stones but didn't know tea made a difference. Two years ago my doctor informed me after yet another surgery that tea wasn't something I should be drinking anymore. I miss a nice cup of PG Tips all the time. I don't think about it every day anymore but at least weekly I find myself wanting a cup.


No tea and nonfat products, now that is a healthy lifestyle!


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Cripes! What the hell is all this kidney stone stuff !?

No one told me about this when I signed up to my life time of addiction to tea, at the age of 9. Don't like the sound of kidney stones one bit.
But bejeezus. How the hell am I expected to even get out of bed in the morning if there isn't a cup of tea waiting, let alone get through the day ??

Telling me this, means I've literally just had my whole life ruined 🤷‍♂️😱


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

I am a HUGE Tea drinker.. im talking about 8-12 cups a day.. i know, im a savage.
anyway, Chris thank you for your help, My Amphion is working great, and beautiful as ever!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

^^^ That is a classy-looking watch.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

PowerChucker said:


> I am a HUGE Tea drinker.. im talking about 8-12 cups a day.. i know, im a savage.
> anyway, Chris thank you for your help, My Amphion is working great, and beautiful as ever!
> View attachment 15828389
> 
> View attachment 15828390


Pics like this are the reason I am on the waiting list. I am not on the Rolex waiting list, but I am glad to be on the Amphion one!


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Mediocre said:


> Pics like this are the reason I am on the waiting list. I am not on the Rolex waiting list, but I am glad to be on the Amphion one!


Oh I hear you. I LOVE the Amphion! This Vintage Gilt is my second AMphion, I used to have the original Amphion Vintage, with the sandpaper dial too. I just Love MilSubs.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> I am a HUGE Tea drinker.. im talking about 8-12 cups a day.. i know, im a savage.
> anyway, Chris thank you for your help, My Amphion is working great, and beautiful as ever!
> View attachment 15828389
> 
> View attachment 15828390


That top photo is lovely, very crisp.
I do like the Amphion, along with the Scorpene it's an NTH classic - in my book anyway.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I've had my Thresher for a little over a week now. Still loving it. Informally, it's running about +7 seconds per day.










I mentioned before how I love the starkness (if that's even the word I should use to convey my thought) of the watch, the shade of blue, that the date is at 6 o'clock and that it didn't completely replace the 6 o'clock index. The overall finishing is fantastic.

Now, after a week, I've learned to love more about it. The case design is just great. The drilled lugs are a welcome feature and the crown guards are quite elegant. The bracelet is very well designed and executed and very, very comfortable; the solid end-links add a bit of heft and fit very tightly against the case with no gaps. The clasp on this thing is made of some thick steel. I also appreciate that it comes with plenty of links - half links included - to size it perfectly to my large wrist. I was dismayed initially reading of the tapering bracelet but it turns out I really like it.

It's just a great looking watch with some great features. It even looks great on the generic bracelets I've tried. I'm looking forward to seeing what other 2K1 watches may come out.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I drink coffee, occasionally tea, but not alcohol...

I really enjoy all the teas but favorites include southern USA sweet tea (esp with fried chicken... or biscuit 'n gravy...), Japanese tea with roasted barley on cold days, Stash Chai, overly-sweet Thai iced tea, and a Canadian Maritime staple, King Cole tea.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)




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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Necessary coffee..........










Cheerz,

Alan


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TROPICS!!!

Are still expected early next month, BUT...we have the tropic straps ready...









20mm Tropik-style Rubber Strap, Black


Premium quality tropik-style rubber strap with signed NTH buckle. Strap tapers from 20mm at the lugs to 18mm buckle. Strap length is 120mm/80mm, and includes 2 spring bars. Please be aware that straps are not returnable for refund.




nthwatches.com













This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I hadn't bought an NTH sub until now as I've been wary of 40mm divers on my largish flat wrist. My 40mm Lorus orange looked tiny. But this looks absolutely fine size wise. Plus it's that comfort essential, it's slim.
I've handled several NTH subs before, and the quality is absolutely there. I'm very pleased with it. There were a few that I'd have equally happily bought, but this brown brings something I've never had to my watch box.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

That looks exceptional! Maybe I need a brown-dialed watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> I am a HUGE Tea drinker.. im talking about 8-12 cups a day.. i know, im a savage.
> anyway, Chris thank you for your help, My Amphion is working great, and beautiful as ever!


Nobody lubes your seals like we do.

Or fixes your watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> ...but this brown brings something I've never had to my watch box.


Well-lubed seals?

In all seriousness...if memory serves, you were fantasizing about a hand-swap, I assume for sword hands. What's the verdict, now that you have it?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Nobody lubes your seals like we do.
> 
> Or fixes your watch.


Lol that made my day

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Well-lubed seals?
> 
> In all seriousness...if memory serves, you were fantasizing about a hand-swap, I assume for sword hands. What's the verdict, now that you have it?


I particularly like the proportions, and interactions between the hands and indices that's very evident in this picture.








I'm going to live with it for a while before I make my mind up about anything. I try - not always successfully - to make watch decisions after plenty of time thinking and sleeping on it.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

catsteeth said:


> I particularly like the proportions, and interactions between the hands and indices that's very evident in this picture.
> View attachment 15830786
> 
> I'm going to live with it for a while before I make my mind up about anything. I try - not always successfully - to make watch decisions after plenty of time thinking and sleeping on it.


Those hands look perfect for that watch in my opinion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

This morning, and I'm very pleased.
I was a little unsure of the green (c3 I believe ?) lume on the brown when it arrived. However, now I've lived with it I _really_ like it. It's quite unusual, interesting, and actually very attractive. Satisfyingly bright too.









I love a slim watch, it's very comfortable to wear. I love the lines, facets, and finishes on the lugs you can see here. Along with downturn at the tip, and the drilled lug it's all pure watch pron.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Rhorya said:


>


I have the regular stainless date version and am really enjoying it, though I think it actually wears bigger than the specs would suggest. That said, if you look at it in passing, or go cross-eyed or something, I think it gives off some Tag vibes with the dial/hands design. Definitely not a bad thing, just something I noticed. And maybe it's just me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I particularly like the proportions, and interactions between the hands and indices that's very evident in this picture.


When we're working on a new design, we typically figure out the dial, then go looking for hands. Once we settle on the hands, we sometimes will go back and tweak the dial in order to get the hands and indices to work well together.

FWIW, I used to hate snowflake hands, and much preferred sword hands. Wear it a while. You may find they grow on you, as I did.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Happy Sunday all. 
So I have decided I might need a dive watch that is WR down to the depth at which whales hunt giant squid. Does anyone know if NTH offers such a watch or will do so in the future? Also must have a saw-tooth bezel as grip can be a bit challenging at those depths...

View attachment 15834034

View attachment 15834036


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> When we're working on a new design, we typically figure out the dial, then go looking for hands. Once we settle on the hands, we sometimes will go back and tweak the dial in order to get the hands and indices to work well together.
> 
> FWIW, I used to hate snowflake hands, and much preferred sword hands. Wear it a while. You may find they grow on you, as I did.


I read this, and the last part hit home. I was preparing a more thoughtful response, then I received the below pic in a text...now I have to go remove this unexpected visitor from our dining room.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> I read this, and the last part hit home. I was preparing a more thoughtful response, then I received the below pic in a text...now I have to go remove this unexpected visitor from our dining room.
> 
> View attachment 15833863


Is he a good boy ?? I'd let him stay, he looks happy there🐸


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> ...now I have to go remove this unexpected visitor from our dining room.


We are covered up with those guys this time of year. But I love when they "sing the song of their people" each night...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Happy Sunday all.
> So I have decided I might need a dive watch that is WR down to the depth at which whales hunt giant squid. Does anyone know if NTH offers such a watch or will do so in the future? Also must have a saw-tooth bezel as grip can be a bit challenging at those depths...
> 
> View attachment 15834034
> ...


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


>


Wiseassery aside, I was intrigued by your recent post that more Devil Rays will be released mid-year - including turquoise. And maybe a secret special edition? The mind fairly boggles. I think I may need to use that as the reward incentive for finishing a fitness program I'm doing. Cuz when you own a bunch of divers already, you kinda need a reason...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Welp, the rubber strap follies continue on...

Just to recap...

The 22mm sample straps I got, which are identical in design to the 20mm straps, DID fit the 2K1's, perfectly. The 40 straps I then ordered, not so much...

Sample:










Production:










So, at least I know I'm not the sort of idiot who orders a bunch of fitted straps without checking to make sure they will actually work with the intended watch.

But still - the factory is totally denying they changed the mold.

































So far, all the other 22mm samples have fit the DevilRay (or L&H Orthos), perfectly, but not the 2K1's, except for one. That one sample, the strap is okay, I think, but the design is kind of plain.

The 22mm straps we got:

















The only 22m strap that actually seems to fit (at least, the sample does, so...for whatever that's worth):
























It's okay. Not fantastic. The spring bar snicked easily into place, so there's that. But like I said, it's a little plain, and I wish the strap fit the lugs a little better.

Meanwhile, we got 560 (out of the 600) 20mm straps I ordered. The remaining 40 are on their way now.

Again, the 20mm samples fit PERFECTLY.

The 560 straps get shipped to Dan. I asked him to do a test-fit, because why wouldn't I, having gone through what we have so far?

"Chris, I can't get this strap on. I just spent 20 minutes wrestling with it, and can't the spring bar to seat in the lug holes."

So I jump in the car, and drive up to Dan's place, fuming that this is happening again. I get there, and thankfully, I was able to get 2 straps mounted, with a little finagling and finesse. Took about 5-10 minutes. Kinda had to use the spring bar tool like a crow-bar, to lever the one end of the bar into place, but whatevs, they fit.

Sent the two watches / straps for photography. Pics to follow when I have them.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Is he a good boy ?? I'd let him stay, he looks happy there🐸





dmjonez said:


> We are covered up with those guys this time of year. But I love when they "sing the song of their people" each night...


He's still around, just moved to the front yard


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Welp, the rubber strap follies continue on...
> 
> Just to recap...
> 
> So far, all the other 22mm samples have fit the DevilRay (or L&H Orthos), perfectly,


I'm digging the rubber straps for the Devil Ray. Might have to get one as well as the bracelet if I pull the trigger.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Welp, the rubber strap follies continue on...
> 
> Just to recap...
> 
> ...


Well, sh*t.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here have any expertise with rubber compounds?

I think the problem may be that the sample straps were TPU or silicone, and the production straps were a higher grade of rubber, that's less compressible.

That's the only other explanation I can think up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Well, sh*t.
> View attachment 15834162


It truly is exasperating.

I mean...they told me the straps I wanted to order, including the compound I want to use, are "in stock"...

"Great, can I get a sample, in 22mm, using [rubber compound]?"

"Sorry, we only have samples in silicone."

"Wait, what? You just told me you had these straps in stock."

"Yes, but only in silicone."

"But I want [rubber compound]. When I told you that, and I asked what the MOQ would be, you told me 'any quantity', because they were 'in stock'."

"Okay, we will send you a sample."

"Using [rubber compound]?"

"Yes."

Then I get the sample.

"Can you confirm the sample you sent me is [rubber compound]?"

"Sorry, Chris, we only have samples in TPU. It's not much different."

And on and on it goes...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone wondering why I care about the difference...










Same strap. Same mold. The one on the left is the rubber compound I want. The other is silicone.

It's like the steel vs. ceramic debate. I'm looking for the right balance of pliability, and resistance to chemicals and abrasion. Most people just order the lowest-cost solution, so that's what all the factories stock, and focus on, and want to sell me.

None of them seem to get that if they advertise [rubber compound] as an option, someone's going to want them to actually produce a strap using that material, and will want a sample first.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> For anyone wondering why I care about the difference...
> 
> View attachment 15834176
> 
> ...


I agree, there's no comparison. The silicon straps I've got are super comfortable and really soft, malleable, and mould like a second skin.
I love wearing them, while rubber is just tough.

I've found the same thing before myself. Some cultures just don't say no or disagree. I don't think they're being difficult, they do it with everyone. Their own family, work colleagues, friends, foreign buyers.
It's extremely frustrating, even when you know it and understand what's happening.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Thought this was fun. From last night.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I agree, there's no comparison. The silicon straps I've got are super comfortable and really soft, malleable, and mould like a second skin.
> I love wearing them, while rubber is just tough.
> 
> I've found the same thing before myself. Some cultures just don't say no or disagree. I don't think they're being difficult, they do it with everyone. Their own family, work colleagues, friends, foreign buyers.
> It's extremely frustrating, even when you know it and understand what's happening.


Who made your silicone straps? Are they Seikos?

The new silicone straps that come on mid-range Seiko divers are amazing, compared to the super-stiff ones that used to come on lower-end SKX's.

Most silicone straps are crap. Their colors look dull, and they tend to attract lint. They aren't as wear-resistant. They develop cracks and tear.

I've had straps made of natural rubber, and three other rubber compounds, and they're all better than most silicone straps (other than Seiko's), though each is a little different.

When I had to choose a compound to use for the original Tropics' straps, back in 2016, I did some research into each of the available options, and their usual applications.

You won't find any authoritative source which says, "this is the 'correct' compound for rubber watch straps." So choosing requires some consideration of pros and cons. I think about which of the usual applications seems to be the closest approximation of real-world conditions, but also about comfort, and how long the strap should last.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Who made your silicone straps? Are they Seikos?
> 
> The new silicone straps that come on mid-range Seiko divers are amazing, compared to the super-stiff ones that used to come on lower-end SKX's.
> 
> ...


I've gone partway down this rubber hole in the past. As an amateur trying to research the various rubber and plastic materials and brands supplying the many options to pick what would work for me is daunting. Especially if you don't want to buy the most expensive options. So many folks just buy something and then swear by it. Similar to discussions of favorite sources for Natos.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> I've gone partway down this rubber hole in the past. As an amateur trying to research the various rubber and plastic materials and brands supplying the many options to pick what would work for me is daunting. Especially if you don't want to buy the most expensive options. So many folks just buy something and then swear by it. Similar to discussions of favorite sources for Natos.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not trying to put our friend @MikeyT on the spot, but back when I first started talking about this here, and posted a pic of what we'd be ordering, he posted a link to a visually identical strap on Amazon, which was listed as "rubber", and selling for ~$15.

I didn't mean to sound dismissive or snarky when I said it was silicone, not rubber, despite what the listing said. It had to be silicone, at that price. I asked him privately if he got it. He said he did, and if memory serves, he confirmed it was crap.

Having owned and worn straps made of natural rubber, silicone (both good and bad), and three different kinds of rubber compounds, I feel like I at least have enough experience to judge how comfortable each is. Knowing which should last longer is really just the missing piece needed to make the "right" decision, if there is one.

There are a couple other 22mm straps I just started looking into. I haven't given up yet.

It was a stroke of luck that the 20mm lugs on the Subs will accommodate anything made for a Rolex Submariner. All I had to do was look for straps made to fit the Rolex. Easy-peasy.

Not so much with the 2K1's. Apparently the Sea-Dweller and Deepsea have 21mm lugs (why, Rolex, why?), and while the Pelagos has 22mm lugs, the lug length is only 50mm, whereas the 2K1's is 51mm. It leads me to believe that the 22mm straps I got were meant to fit the Pelagos, and are just 0.5mm too short at the ends to work with the 2K1's.

Worst case scenario, I'll order the best non-fitted straps I can find, and move on from this exercise in frustration.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Who made your silicone straps? Are they Seikos?
> 
> The new silicone straps that come on mid-range Seiko divers are amazing, compared to the super-stiff ones that used to come on lower-end SKX's.
> 
> ...


I don't know anything about rubber or silicon straps. I don't wear them very much, but I do occasionally like to do so for a change-up.

I've had two straps I really liked. One was a Borealis Silicon 20mm that came with one of their watches. I loved the strap, felt good quality and was soft and comfortable. I actually wore it on the Bulova Moon Watch reissue instead. Until I eventually sold the Borealis it came with.

The second is a Zuludiver 22mm that is exactly the same. Same look and feel, just bigger. It's pictured below, covered in lint. I like this one, and it is currently sometimes on my CW Trident.
Next to it is a tough rubber strap that I can't remember the origins of. Never worn it, but did put it coiled up in boiling water to bend it enough to wear, and still didn't like it. It's not that cheap plastic-rubber of $10 Casio, but it's not comfortable silicon either.








I did have what was claimed to be a silicon strap with the Spinnaker Hull Tactical I owned. It had that burnt vanilla smell, but was still quite tough and rubbery. Not as rubbery as the one above though.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I commend you for trying to find fitted straps that will work with the 2k1s. I'd imagine that to be a very difficult challenge given the custom nature of cases.

It seems most brands that sell rubber straps go for the highest quality possible on use a straight end strap. Halios and nodus come to mind. They both use fkm rubber and are some of the better branded straps out there.

Good luck with your decision. I love a good fitted strap on a diver.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 15832239


Second time I've seen that bezel on the Scorpene. Might be my second NTH?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Reading about your silicone/rubber woes, I get it. I have managed businesses in the past with very important rubber or silicone components. After spending time touring plants in Asia, it was eye opening. 

It is one of those areas customers expect you to "cheap out" because in many cases they think of it as "just rubber". In reality, it was a component I gladly paid more for, because the quality was better (and easily proven with testing)


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Bringing a conversation back up that a frog interrupted....

Anyone have thoughts on snowflake hands? Particularly anyone that was up in the air? After reading the dialogue between @catsteeth and @docvail I suddenly found intetest in giving them a try.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Bringing a conversation back up that a frog interrupted....
> 
> Anyone have thoughts on snowflake hands? Particularly anyone that was up in the air? After reading the dialogue between @catsteeth and @docvail I suddenly found intetest in giving them a try.


Background ?
When I was first on here Tisell Subs were popular and sold out immediately. Took me a year to get one.
I knew immediately it was a mistake. It's not from principle I dislike copy watches, I was all set to give it a go. It was from putting it on, realising it was literally a 1:1 Submariner copy but with _obviously_ non of the quality, (though fine for it's money). It made me feel like a total and massive fraud.
All watches are homages to a greater or lesser extent. For me, a watch that sympathetically references a watch,_ but has its own unique identity and DNA, I'm perfectly happy with._
The couple of close homages I've tried since, have just confirmed my opinion_._

Snowflakes ❄
I was worried with the indices, case shape, and especially snowflake _hands_ that my NTH Barracuda Brown and Gilt would wear too closely to a BB. With the Snowflake hands being utterly identified with Tudor watches.
Fortunately that case and indices style is almost universal among divers anyway.
I've tried the 41mm BB several times and my NTH just doesn't wear like one, or even particularly even look like one, or feel like one either.
It just wears like it's own original watch.
I don't know why but I suspect the sunray vs matt dial, flat vs domed sapphire, slim vs slab sides, super comfy oyster vs chunky rivet bracelet, gear tooth vs coin edge bezel (or castellated vs crenellated bezel ?): have a lot to do with it.
I haven't tried the BB 58 so I don't know if it carries through with that too.

So TLDR: essentially the NTH Barracuda doesn't feel anything like wearing a Tudor BB. So I was happy to have the Snowflake hands.

CODA ?
If the Amphion style sword hands were an exact match proportionally and colour wise I think that'd look cool on NTH Barracuda Brown. But as the reason for wanting the swap doesn't exist anymore, I'm happy to leave the snowflakes.


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## ismit (Dec 29, 2019)

I was looking at BB58 maybe 2 years, then suddenly bought NTH Barracuda and still feel very good about that. Then BB58 in pretty good shape had crossed my way. To my bad surprise, it is fully polished on sides, that I haven't felt too comfy about that and sold them shortly.
Now a bit silly question. Have anybody tried to fit Barracuda end links for DOXA SUB 300T? .


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ismit said:


> Have anybody tried to fit Barracuda end links for DOXA SUB 300T? .


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Mediocre said:


> Anyone have thoughts on snowflake hands? Particularly anyone that was up in the air? After reading the dialogue between @catsteeth and @docvail I suddenly found intetest in giving them a try.


Was def on the fence about snowflake hands. FWIW, I hate, Hate, HATE mercedes hands, to the point where it is one of the main reasons I will never own a popular Rolex sports model. OP or DG with baton hands? Fine. Exp or Sub with mercedes hands? Nope.

Initially, was not fond of snowflake hands, either. Not the visceral dislike I have regarding mercedes hands, but not on my priority list. Since then... I've come around. They are fine. And practically speaking, they serve a purpose of very much differentiating hour from minute hand, especially in the dark, when the lume kicks in. I built a few mods with them to see if they worked for me IRL, and sure enough, it turns out I really like the function and style.

To the point that, if I were to consider purchasing another NTH model, it would probably be a Nacken variant. The Modern Black in DLC/PVD or whatever coating Doc uses, is especially sick.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Was def on the fence about snowflake hands. FWIW, I hate, Hate, HATE mercedes hands, to the point where it is one of the main reasons I will never own a popular Rolex sports model. OP or DG with baton hands? Fine. Exp or Sub with mercedes hands? Nope.
> 
> Initially, was not fond of snowflake hands, either. Not the visceral dislike I have regarding mercedes hands, but not on my priority list. Since then... I've come around. They are fine. And practically speaking, they serve a purpose of very much differentiating hour from minute hand, especially in the dark, when the lume kicks in. I built a few mods with them to see if they worked for me IRL, and sure enough, it turns out I really like the function and style.
> 
> To the point that, if I were to consider purchasing another NTH model, it would probably be a Nacken variant. The Modern Black in DLC/PVD or whatever coating Doc uses, is especially sick.


If it's black, or some shade of gray (thinking of the bezel inserts), it's DLC.

All the other colors are just PVD. As far as I'm aware, or at least according to my vendors, there's no such thing as DLC in other colors. It's black, shades of gray, or GTFOH.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Thanks @catsteeth and @mconlonx !


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> If it's black, or some shade of gray (thinking of the bezel inserts), it's DLC.
> 
> All the other colors are just PVD. As far as I'm aware, or at least according to my vendors, there's no such thing as DLC in other colors. It's black, shades of gray, or GTFOH.


I meant the plated black case and bracelet. Combined with the Nacken Modern Black dial and white hands/indexes... damn. And considering the Scorpene White in the DLC case and bracelet, maybe a Nacken Vintage White, too, if that ever makes a comeback.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I meant the plated black case and bracelet. Combined with the Nacken Modern Black dial and white hands/indexes... damn. And considering the Scorpene White in the DLC case and bracelet, maybe a Nacken Vintage White, too, if that ever makes a comeback.


The case and bracelet are DLC (as are the black and gray bezel inserts).

I try to never say never, but I don't foresee us making too many more DLC versions of anything. We're expecting to receive 10 DLC case/bracelet sets from my vendor, still. I plan to have Dan assemble some one-offs using some dials / hands we have here. But after that, I think DLC is dead to me.

We only made 5 date / 5 no-date of all the DLC versions, except for the Barracuda Vintage Black, of which we made 10 / 10. There are only 3 of the Näcken Modern Black DLC left - 1 no-date, and 1 with-date, all at Serious.

There's only 1 of the Scorpène White DLC left - also at Serious.

I was thinking about bringing the Näcken Vintage White back at some point, but again, I doubt we'll make any DLC versions.

For the one-offs. I know at least one of the Amphion Dark Gilts will be DLC. I've been holding off on figuring out the other until we actually have all the parts needed to start assembly.

I was also planning on making 2 of the regular Scorpène (black dial) with DLC cases / bracelets - 1 no-date, and 1 with-date.

Looking at the other parts we have here, I don't see anything other than 1 Nacken Modern Black, no-date, which might get assembled as a DLC.

That would leave us with 5-7 DLC cases / bracelets. I suppose we might be able to do a case / bracelet swap for anyone deranged enough to want that badly enough to pay for it. So, if you wanted a DLC Näcken Vintage White, it's not impossible to arrange.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> FWIW, I hate, Hate, HATE mercedes hands


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

RotorRonin said:


>


Love that movie. Its been too long since I've seen it.
All he wanted was a stinkin soda, and to get home for his kids birthday
Or am I misremembering that?


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

3-1-1 said:


> Love that movie. Its been too long since I've seen it.
> All he wanted was a stinkin soda, and to get home for his kids birthday
> Or am I misremembering that?


It really is an excellent movie. The "not economically viable" scene always gets me.






"Don't forget me."


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I bought a Barracuda Blue with the sole purpose of converting it to an Amphion Blue. It is not that I dislike snowflake hands in general, I just really wanted a sunburst blue Amphion and I could not persuade Chris to make an official one.










In contrast I do really hate Mercedes hands and would go out of my way to change them where possible. I actually have a Santa Fe with the Mercedes hands swapped to skeleton snowflake hands and it looks awesome.










The challenge is finding aftermarket Miyota 9015 hands that will work with the relevant watch design. I have a Tisell with Mercedes hands that I would love to change. I have been looking for Ranger, PO or Sword hands but all I can find is ones for Seiko. How come there is a huge market for Seiko mod parts but hardly anything for Miyota?

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A true modder wouldn't let the lack of hands made for a movement stop him.

Just ask @jelliottz .


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> I bought a Barracuda Blue with the sole purpose of converting it to an Amphion Blue. It is not that I dislike snowflake hands in general, I just really wanted a sunburst blue Amphion and I could not persuade Chris to make an official one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That "Amphion" Blue is awesome !!

It does work then. I'm content with the Barracuda as it is. I'm not in to modding, and don't particularly want to start. But I _really_ do like that with the sword hands.

I've always liked your Santa Fe with the Skeletal Snowflakes.

Likewise I'm not a fan of Merc hands. I had a Squale with them, I think it's probably the main reason I sold it because I loved it otherwise.

Here's _your_ Santa Fe on my wrist....








Looks like it's got a different bezel since then ..


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It's so interesting how WIS tastes diverge from the mainstream. My wife has both a Santa Cruz and a Holland, both with Merc hands, and I'd bet she's never even noticed their style, much less thought about them.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's so interesting how WIS tastes diverge from the mainstream. My wife has both a Santa Cruz and a Holland, both with Merc hands, and I'd bet she's never even noticed their style, much less thought about them.


As they say ignorance is bliss.

And in the case of wis'dom, knowledge is just for the sad....

?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

3-1-1 said:


> Love that movie. Its been too long since I've seen it.
> All he wanted was a stinkin soda, and to get home for his kids birthday
> Or am I misremembering that?


I hear ya! I love it too, I bought it on DVD years and years ago and still have it in my collection.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

catsteeth said:


> That "Amphion" Blue is awesome !!
> 
> It does work then. I'm content with the Barracuda as it is. I'm not in to modding, and don't particularly want to start. But I _really_ do like that with the sword hands.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I added a Kiger/Oberon bezel as I wanted the C3 lume and the touch of red at 12 to add a little contrast. I just could not get over the original BGW9 blue lume conflicting with the C3 dial, plus it was not as bright so disappeared against the dial.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> Yeah, I added a Kiger/Oberon bezel as I wanted the C3 lume and the touch of red at 12 to add a little contrast. I just could not get over the original BGW9 blue lume conflicting with the C3 dial, plus it was not as bright so disappeared against the dial.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


It'd be cool to see a night lume pic when you get a chance. 👍


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

3-1-1 said:


> Love that movie. Its been too long since I've seen it.
> All he wanted was a stinkin soda, and to get home for his kids birthday
> Or am I misremembering that?


here ya go, and my favorite Amphion!


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

It is interesting how one’s aesthetic preferences can change. The Explorer used to be a grail watch for me - I loved everything about it. Then I grew to hate Mercedes hands (don’t know why) and it ruined the Explorer. 

Doc, I think I can guess the answer but would you ever use plongeur hands on an NTH? Cuz that would be badass. 


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all seen this?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> It is interesting how one's aesthetic preferences can change. The Explorer used to be a grail watch for me - I loved everything about it. Then I grew to hate Mercedes hands (don't know why) and it ruined the Explorer.
> 
> Doc, I think I can guess the answer but would you ever use plongeur hands on an NTH? Cuz that would be badass.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I dunno. Maybe. Never say never.

But no current plans.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Sometimes the hands make the watch. I bought this vintage Gubelin years ago in large part because of the unusual hands. The Swiss dealer I bought it from speculated that it might have been originally done custom for an ex-military man. 









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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

There's a watch called Santa Fe?!?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

josiahg52 said:


> There's a watch called Santa Fe?!?


Yes. Get with it dude! Lol Google it up!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

josiahg52 said:


> There's a watch called Santa Fe?!?


Raises an interesting question.

What is the theory/ practise/ process behind the choosing of NTH names ??


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Raises an interesting question.
> 
> What is the theory/ practise/ process behind the choosing of NTH names ??


They're all named after submarines. Sante Fe is an LA Class. There was also the Argentine Balao Class sub, the ARA Santa Fe.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

NTH Scorpene Nomad today:


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This little beauty is still on my wrist










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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

gokce said:


> NTH Scorpene Nomad today:
> 
> View attachment 15842353


There's just something about that dial. Along with the 12 hour bezel. Such a cool watch 👍


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Give us a classic NTH Caribbean - Smiths have been talking about one for at least a couple of years but they keep delaying it - though good demand for it on forums - Crepas and Zoretto versions were too big. 40mm x 46mm, range of colours then sit back and take customer's money before someone else puts a classic sized one on the market. Would look great sitting alongside your Tropics and Devil Rays.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif
















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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> There's a watch called Santa Fe?!?


At least one.

















Ball also made a few versions of the Fireman called the Santa Fe, I assume after a train.

















A few months back, we used the last dial and handset we had for the Santa Fe to assemble a one-off, DLC version, as an homage to the Night Diver that Timothy Dalton wore as James Bond in the Living Daylights.









This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


Heart attack level sandwich there...for when you want to eat ALL the animals. A cow, a chicken and a pig walked into a bar....and we ate them!




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> There's just something about that dial. Along with the 12 hour bezel. Such a cool watch 👍


There aren't too many left, and all of them are at IntoWatch in S. Korea. Last count I got, it was just 5 pieces, out of 50 assembled. And we won't be making more with the 12 hour bezel.









인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com





The IntoWatch website is in Korean. My browser automatically translates it into English, but even so, I know it can be difficult to get from the product page through check out to a successful transaction, so I recommend contacting the owner, Jun, at [email protected] for help.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

8505davids said:


> Give us a classic NTH Caribbean - Smiths have been talking about one for at least a couple of years but they keep delaying it - though good demand for it on forums - Crepas and Zoretto versions were too big. 40mm x 46mm, range of colours then sit back and take customer's money before someone else puts a classic sized one on the market. Would look great sitting alongside your Tropics and Devil Rays.


According to what I saw of the Smiths' specs, it was to be 40mm x 45mm. What am I missing?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't usually promote other brands' watches, but since people occasionally ask me to make a GMT, especially a GMT version of the 40mm Subs...

Watch Gauge has some of the new Zodiac World Time LE's that just dropped -









Search: 28 results found for "Zodiac"


Watch Gauge is a certified retailer of the best microbrands watches on the market. They carry a variety of affordable watches to fit everyone's style.




watchgauge.com





Interesting to note that while recent Zodiac GMT's used ETA 2893-2's, these new world time's use the dimensionally identical Soprod C125.

They're not "cheap", at almost $1800, but I've tried to tell the people who've asked that any GMT I make would likely end up using the 2893-2 or some clone of it, at least a dimensional clone, and as such, the price would likely be over $1k.

So...here you go, an example of what people have been asking me to make. The diameter and lug length are identical to the Subs - 40mm x 48mm. The Zodiacs have a little less WR (20 ATM), and are a little thicker (13mm), but otherwise, likely very comparable to what an NTH GMT Sub might be, if we ever made one.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

_Santa Fe _(the SSN 688_i _class ship) was my boat. Seems I missed out. A DLC case and lumed dial would be a very cool watch.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> _Santa Fe _(the SSN 688_i _class ship) was my boat. Seems I missed out. A DLC case and lumed dial would be a very cool watch.


If you keep an eye on watch recon, they pop up every now and then. And the NTH subs are such tough watches that used ones are usually still in pretty good condition.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> According to what I saw of the Smiths' specs, it was to be 40mm x 45mm. What am I missing?


Think its around that - 40x45/6 a good sweet spot and I meant make it in that size. The Crepas and Zoretto ones were bigger and the new Zoretto dials look crap, like a cheap rip off Doxa dial in a Caribbean case. Go different from any previous Caribbean as well and include a red/burgundy dialed one - hell, give it a red/burgundy bezel insert too and have your own 'Double Red'!


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Since it came up, I have the stainless steel bezel version of the Zodiac Super Sea Wolf GMT. It wears a bit larger than the dimensions suggest, I think because of the large dial. My calipers give me dimensions of 40.3 mm (bezel width) x 38.8 mm (case width) x 47.7 (length) x 13.4 (height inc. crystal). So far I like it. The Soprod C125 movement works fine although it is too early for any reliability claims.

It feels a bit pricey compared to other GMTs that are available at the moment. For example the Lorier Hyperion GMT is available with the same movement for 800 USD. So why did I get the Zodiac? Mostly for the looks, plus the brand name does have some cachet, at least for me. That does not mean the Lorier is off the hook, I'm waiting for it to come back in stock to make a decision.


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## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bigjamesdean said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice! Hope you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Excited to hear that more DevilRays are being released this year, got to start saving so I can score a turquoise one, any chance you can give out more details on the exclusive edition?

Sunburst blue is stunning


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> I mostly ship watches TO Serious Watches, not get them FROM Serious, but I did get one, my wife's Holland.
> 
> Sadly, that shipment did NOT include any stroopwafel.
> 
> That was almost 2 years ago, and as you can see, I haven't forgotten it. The longing remains.


Saw this when you posted it and forgot to respond at the time. When I saw these at the store today I grabbed a couple of packs. Doc, if you need Stroopies, just gotta come west a little. Place in Lancaster makes them fresh. They sell them still warm, complete with still melty caramel, at the farmer's market...or at least did before lockdowns. Not sure about now, but they are definitely still in business. I can send you some if the address is on your website. Or shoot me a PM and I'll get them to the post office. You need some of these!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> ...any chance you can give out more details on the exclusive edition?


Yes!

Just as soon as the store that'll be selling it wants to reveal those details...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shrewboy said:


> Saw this when you posted it and forgot to respond at the time. When I saw these at the store today I grabbed a couple of packs. Doc, if you need Stroopies, just gotta come west a little. Place in Lancaster makes them fresh. They sell them still warm, complete with still melty caramel, at the farmer's market...or at least did before lockdowns. Not sure about now, but they are definitely still in business. I can send you some if the address is on your website. Or shoot me a PM and I'll get them to the post office. You need some of these!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the nice offer, but honestly, my waistline doesn't need it. I need to quit indulging my bad habits and start refocusing on better habits.


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> Thank you for the nice offer, but honestly, my waistline doesn't need it. I need to quit indulging my bad habits and start refocusing on better habits.


I totally get that! If only I found beer as easy to resist as sweets...

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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

These recent posts have shamed me....as I read from the Dairy Queen parking lot


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## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

docvail said:


> Nice! Hope you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


First small watch I have owned since the 80's but very happy with it. Have a Swiftsure incoming but wish you had stuck with the 300m and thinner case but its my preferred size so went with it anyway

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bigjamesdean said:


> First small watch I have owned since the 80's but very happy with it. Have a Swiftsure incoming but wish you had stuck with the 300m and thinner case but its my preferred size so went with it anyway
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At the risk I've misunderstood you...you're saying you wished we'd kept the WR at 300m for the 2K1's, as that would have resulted in a thinner case?

This isn't an argument, only an explanation of the thought process that went into it...

I may have been wrong, but when guys asked us to make a bigger version of the 40mm Subs, often saying 44mm, I assumed that the watches they liked tended to be higher-spec, and thus thicker. So, that was a factor.

Also, all other things being equal, making the watch wider necessitates making it thicker, anyway. I don't know what the thickness might have been had we kept the WR to 300m, but I figured that it wouldn't have been thin enough to be worth talking about.

Let's say it was 12mm, only 0.5mm thickner than the 40mm Subs. Big deal. There are plenty of 300m divers that thick, or less thick.

Instead, I thought we should increase the WR enough to make case thinness a challenge, with a goal of ending up with a combination of WR and case thinness that would be worth talking about. As far as I'm aware, at 13mm, the 2K1's are the thinnest >60 ATM divers on the planet.

The NTH theme is vintage inspiration. Sometimes we go looking for a story worth telling. The 2K1 case design was inspired by the COMEX Subs and original Sea-Dweller, which had 610m WR. Making our watch less than that just didn't seem to make as much sense.

Knowing what we do about case design, I was confident that we could make the 2K1's feel thinner. I think the DevilRay feels thinner than it is, and people tend to think the Subs wear even thinner than they are. The vast majority of the feedback we've gotten on the 2K1's confirms that they don't wear as thick as the dimension suggests.

Part of it is just proportions - 13mm thickness is going to stand out less at 44mm diameter than 40mm or less (looking at you, Seiko SARBs). But part of it is design - the curve of the lugs, the 2mm thinner mid-case, the chamfered case sides, etc.

I guess I'm saying, don't pre-judge it. Wait until you get it. Try it on before you remove all the plastic. If you don't like it, send it back for a refund.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The 2K1 doesn't feel like a large watch to me and I like how thin it is and wears. It would be wrong to dismiss it simply due to the listed dimensions. Having learned more about NTH, I'll pick up a couple more of the original 300m subs but am looking forward to what else the 2K1 case will bring.


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## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

docvail said:


> At the risk I've misunderstood you...you're saying you wished we'd kept the WR at 300m for the 2K1's, as that would have resulted in a thinner case?
> 
> This isn't an argument, only an explanation of the thought process that went into it...
> 
> ...


I am sure I will love it and I definitely do not think its too thick but thinner is always better in my book and 42-43 is my size sweet spot not so much for comfort but presence. Size is less important not than it was 10 years ago since I have lost alot of weight and my wrist is now 7.25 ish compared to 8.25ish so the 40mm does not seem too small anymore.

Knowing your inspiration the decision makes sense for the 2k1's and all in all you have done a fantastic job imo. The Nazario is probably the most comfortable watch I have owned which is saying alot because I have had 500+ watches pass over these wrists , everything from Invicta to Panerai. The size thing is me being knit picky and not a critic 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Bigjamesdean said:


> I am sure I will love it
> ...
> The size thing is me being knit picky and not a critic
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hope you don't mind but one doesn't often have the chance to be nit picky over the spelling of nit picky... 

(Voice-to-text right? I'm often a victim.)

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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I can't afford to be knit pinky with the auto-carrot. Bane of my life😉


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## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

Ike2 said:


> Hope you don't mind but one doesn't often have the chance to be nit picky over the spelling of nit picky...
> 
> (Voice-to-text right? I'm often a victim.)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Had just woken up and brain was still a bit foggy 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Finally got around to posting a picture of my DevilRay, I love it Doc. It's off the bracelet for now so I can be allowed to wear it out here at work, a lovely grey day in the middle of the North Sea.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Finally got around to posting a picture of my DevilRay, I love it Doc. It's off the bracelet for now so I can be allowed to wear it out here at work, a lovely grey day in the middle of the North Sea.
> View attachment 15848509


Glad you like it. Wear it in good health. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Try not to fall in.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Dtn8 said:


> Excited to hear that more DevilRays are being released this year, got to start saving so I can score a turquoise one, any chance you can give out more details on the exclusive edition?
> 
> Sunburst blue is stunning
> View attachment 15844914


That's a gorgeous watch and photo. I'm also excited about new DevilRays being released. I was thinking turquoise as I don't have any turquoise watches and the "old" ones looked great, but that sunburst blue is really a looker. It's gonna be a tough call -and I'm also curious what the exclusive version will look like.

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Revenge of the Rubber Straps...

Are you guys sitting down? You'll want to be seated for this.

The photographer figured out why the sample straps we got fit the 2K1's, but the production straps didn't. Are you ready for this?

The spring bars.

Apparently when I got the samples, they either didn't come with spring bars, or I opted not to use them. Instead, I used the bars that were in the 2K1's bracelet, which are 1.8mm wide.

When we got the production straps, they had spring bars with them. Don't know how wide they are, but I'm guessing 1.5mm.

That 0.3mm difference on either side was enough to keep the straps from fitting the case correctly. 

It's also enough to shrink them down and get them onto the DevilRay case, if you use the spring bars that come with the straps.

BOOOOOMMMMM!!!

That's a double-whammy for me. Now I can say they fit either model (and the L&H Orthos), depending on what spring bars you use.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Revenge of the Rubber Straps...
> 
> Are you guys sitting down? You'll want to be seated for this.
> 
> ...


Seen similar things with a couple of bracelets recently. The Maranez Samui bracelet fits the Synchron Military, but only if you use 1.3mm spring bars instead of the 1.5mm that are included. Same story with the Uncle Seiko 1450 President bracelet, which was designed to fit the last generation of Speedmasters but will fit the new 3861-powered cases if you use 1.5mm spring bars instead of the 1.8mm that are included.

Moral of the story is to keep a lot of spring bars hanging around. And not just under the carpet and in the corners where they inevitably end up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boo-yah...

2K1's:



















DevilRay:

















40mm Subs:


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Boo-yah...
> 
> 2K1's:
> 
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Seen similar things with a couple of bracelets recently. The Maranez Samui bracelet fits the Synchron Military, but only if you use 1.3mm spring bars instead of the 1.5mm that are included. Same story with the Uncle Seiko 1450 President bracelet, which was designed to fit the last generation of Speedmasters but will fit the new 3861-powered cases if you use 1.5mm spring bars instead of the 1.8mm that are included.
> 
> Moral of the story is to keep a lot of spring bars hanging around. And not just under the carpet and in the corners where they inevitably end up.


Are you sure the Samui / Synchron bars are 1.3mm and 1.5mm?

I ask because I recently went through this with my OEM. The bars in the oyster bracelets are 1.8mm, whereas in the BOR's, they're 1.5mm. I got confused, and thought they were 1.2mm. When I asked my OEM to send me a bunch of 1.2mm, they said they don't recommend going lower than 1.5mm, because the bars are more prone to failure.

Even Dan gets confused. He was positive the 1.8mm bars were 2.0mm. But, they ain't.

We're talking fractions of a mm difference here, but as I've learned, such small increments often matter.

Either way, I'm still floored. I just spent untold hours over the last few months searching for a strap to fit the 2K1's, when we had them here the whole time. It never would have occurred to me to use a different spring bar. You'd think the strap factory would have suggested it, but it never occurred to them, either, apparently.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15849393
> 
> 
> View attachment 15849395


Hold fast, Johnny.

The straps are on their way to our warehouse. We should have them available by the end of the week.

However, you can check them out, and all the pics, here - Accessories.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Are you sure the Samui / Synchron bars are 1.3mm and 1.5mm?
> 
> I ask because I recently went through this with my OEM. The bars in the oyster bracelets are 1.8mm, whereas in the BOR's, they're 1.5mm. I got confused, and thought they were 1.2mm. When I asked my OEM to send me a bunch of 1.2mm, they said they don't recommend going lower than 1.5mm, because the bars are more prone to failure.
> 
> ...


Yes. Keep in mind the Maranez bracelet was not designed for the Synchron, so the need to use 1.3mm spring bars, if not ideal, is necessary. The bracelet won't fit otherwise.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Yes. Keep in mind the Maranez bracelet was not designed for the Synchron, so the need to use 1.3mm spring bars, if not ideal, is necessary. The bracelet won't fit otherwise.


Understood. I was only asking about the specific measurements involved, knowing both Dan and I have gotten confused about the actual size spring bars we're using.

I don't know how "risky" a 1.3mm spring bar really is. My OEM has obvious reasons for being risk-averse when discussing components with me.

I mean...if the ends are in the lug holes, how much stress would be on the tube sitting inside the strap or end-link of the bracelet? I'm no engineer, but just thinking about it, it seems to me that the ends of the bars would be more likely to get forced out of the lug holes than they'd be to get forced out of the tube they're situated in.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Understood. I was only asking about the specific measurements involved, knowing both Dan and I have gotten confused about the actual size spring bars we're using.
> 
> I don't know how "risky" a 1.3mm spring bar really is. My OEM has obvious reasons for being risk-averse when discussing components with me.
> 
> I mean...if the ends are in the lug holes, how much stress would be on the tube sitting inside the strap or end-link of the bracelet? I'm no engineer, but just thinking about it, it seems to me that the ends of the bars would be more likely to get forced out of the lug holes than they'd be to get forced out of the tube they're situated in.


Gotcha. In this case multiple folks confirmed and special ordered the 1.3mm bars for that purpose. I didn't own and before but now I've got a few.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Doc, you often say “never say never”. Right again! 

Remember bristling at the notion that some folks would like to see the website feature pictures of past models? I believe H.E.double hockey sticks no (more or less) was the verdict on that. But then enter the age of bezel sales and, bam, pictures of past models on the website. Never say never. 

I also recall someone asking about spring bar sizes some time ago. If memory serves, the answer was along the lines of “No idea and why on Earth should I care?! The watches come with spring bars.” Today, those unseen, unsung heroes can step out from the shadows and have their differences acknowledged and celebrated. Never say never. 

Clever solution to make everything right in the rubber strap saga. That must be a relief. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Doc, you often say "never say never". Right again!
> 
> Remember bristling at the notion that some folks would like to see the website feature pictures of past models? I believe H.E.double hockey sticks no (more or less) was the verdict on that. But then enter the age of bezel sales and, bam, pictures of past models on the website. Never say never.
> 
> ...


I think people asked why we don't provide a non-expiring archive of all past models, even from Lew & Huey. The bezel insert page only has the Subs. The website doesn't show the older versions of the Tropics, or DevilRays.

Sometimes people online will ask me the size of a spring bar, like the one used to attach the 18mm clasp to the bracelet. I just say, "18mm".

I still say there are some things I shouldn't have to know.

Lost one of your spring bars, and need to know what size to order? Measure the one you didn't lose. Don't have calipers? Buy some. Or buy a variety pack of spring bars.

Try getting someone at Seiko or Swatch to tell you the thickness of the spring bar you lost. If you wouldn't bother emailing them to ask, why are you bothering to email me?

Not trying to be a jerk, but sometimes people need to at least try to help themselves before they ask for help.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I think people asked why we don't provide a non-expiring archive of all past models, even from Lew & Huey. The bezel insert page only has the Subs. The website doesn't show the older versions of the Tropics, or DevilRays.
> 
> Sometimes people online will ask me the size of a spring bar, like the one used to attach the 18mm clasp to the bracelet. I just say, "18mm".
> 
> ...


I always defer to the font of all knowledge on all things in times like this....Professor Google...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 15850086


Gravity defying


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Gravity defying


WTF!.. Is that the infamous horological poltergeist, that I've heard whisperings of ..... usually in dark corners


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

catsteeth said:


> WTF!.. Is that the infamous horological poltergeist, that I've heard whisperings of ..... usually in dark corners


He says in post #6666.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fitted rubber straps now available for purchase.









Accessories


Be sure to check out our RedBubble Store for a wide range of customizable apparel!




nthwatches.com


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Fitted rubber straps now available for purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. 
Done, aaand done.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

dope!


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Fitted rubber straps now available for purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kudos for offering the plain black AND the black-with-blue-stripe options for the 22mm. If I get the sunburst blue DevilRay that will present a tough choice. The tough understated simplicity of the plain black or the added pizzazz - but still classy - of the blue stripes? I would ask myself which would be more attractive to a woman, but then my answer would be, they don't give a damn.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Kudos for offering the plain black AND the black-with-blue-stripe options for the 22mm. If I get the sunburst blue DevilRay that will present a tough choice. The tough understated simplicity of the plain black or the added pizzazz - but still classy - of the blue stripes? I would ask myself which would be more attractive to a woman, but then my answer would be, they don't give a damn.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Women can be a pain, in that way.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Very nice. May have to pick one up. 120/80mm should be long enough to be comfortable on my wrist.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I've already been asked (on Facebook) if we'll get any 20mm straps in orange.

I'm looking into it.

The vendor that supplied the 20mm straps in black and blue has a 300 piece MOQ. No way in hell I'm buying 300 orange straps.

The vendor that supplied the 22mm straps has a much lower and more manageable MOQ (yet with a ridiculously higher unit cost). I've asked if they have the same strap, but in 20mm, and orange. If so, I'll probably get some.


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## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

docvail said:


> I've already been asked (on Facebook) if we'll get any 20mm straps in orange.
> 
> I'm looking into it.
> 
> ...


Any plans do more or different Orange dialed sub and / or Pepsi/Coke bezels ??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I see my Oberon on a black NTH strap soon!!


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.

I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.

Below are the proposed final designs for each.

The blues and oranges will be the same as found on current NTH models, and the dials of both will be matte. The final models won't have the underline beneath the DevilRay text.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.
> 
> ...


Looks great and I actually really like the design as it is. Great added details on each! Is that white version matte or like the existing silver or as I like to call it aluminum foil 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Looks great and I actually really like the design as it is. Great added details on each! Is that white version matte or like the existing silver or as I like to call it aluminum foil
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Thanks mate! That's what I want to hear 

The white dial will be matte white, with black hands and hour marker frames.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys - here's a heads up about a thing...

When I create new products on the website, they get added to the general shipping settings by default, which aren't set up to correctly calculate shipping rates for low-weight items (everything that isn't a watch).

If you try to check out on my site, and the shipping rates look absurdly high, send a note to [email protected], and I'll check it out. Odds are, if it's a newer product, I just forgot to add it to the low-weight shipping rates.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bigjamesdean said:


> Any plans do more or different Orange dialed sub and / or Pepsi/Coke bezels ??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No.

Did an orange dial. They don't sell as well. Don't feel like playing that game again.

Can't do any red bezels with steel PVD, because there is no red PVD from our vendors. So, no "Black Bay" stuff, no "Pepsi", no "Coke".

We haven't figured out how to do anything two-tone with our bezel inserts. In theory, we could make the insert in two halves, and PVD-plate the two halves separately, with two different colors, then jam them together into the bezel assembly, but there's a concern that the two pieces won't be 100% perfectly aligned.

I already get an eye-twitch listening to WIS harp on about bezel insert alignment when it's off by less than half a click (less than 0.4%). Don't even make me think about the complaints we'd get if the two halves of a "Batman" bezel didn't perfectly align (or...and I might completely lose my mind here...if the halves aren't aligned with each other, and they're both slightly mis-aligned with the dial...just kill me now...).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.
> 
> ...


Regarding these...

As James said, they're both being considered. It isn't a case of either-or.

I THINK the blue is "final", so hopefully people like it.

As illustrated, the bezel on the white dial is completely stainless (clear-coated), so they'll both have the same basic appearance. My suggestion was that they consider making the outer scale (the insert) PVD plated with the "titanium" color we used on the most recent version of the Nacken Vintage Black, as that would give it a little contrast, and nicely complement the minute track on the dial.

So far, they're not going for it, but if you like the sound of that, this is your chance to lobby them to come around to my view.

Insert pics, of the Ti color, are below, for example purposes. Especially in the macro shot, you can see the color difference.

I like the Ti color, because it's more neutrally gray than the previous "gray" inserts we've done, which could look more brown or green, depending on the light.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Over on FB I suggested:

Blue dial: carry over the orange dot on the minute track of the bezel (orange minute hand)

White dial: make the 12hr outer track of the bezel black with white numbers to better echo the hour hand. 

But for realz, I'm not real interested in a Devil Ray, so they could run with these suggestions and I still wouldn't buy one. If any, it will be turquoise or orange from the NTH general release.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Over on FB I suggested:
> 
> Blue dial: carry over the orange dot on the minute track of the bezel (orange minute hand)
> 
> ...


Well, $hlt. I was counting on you to buy one of each version.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Gotcha. In this case multiple folks confirmed and special ordered the 1.3mm bars for that purpose. I didn't own and before but now I've got a few.


Also, this just occurs to me now...

Where the hell have you been? I could have used this info about the spring bars a month ago.

I get that among all my friends, you probably like me least, but c'mon, man...throw me a bone here, willya?


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Also, this just occurs to me now...
> 
> Where the hell have you been? I could have used this info about the spring bars a month ago.
> 
> I get that among all my friends, you probably like me least, but c'mon, man...throw me a bone here, willya?


You annoyed me about something I can't remember and I've been hanging out with the cool kids in the Rolex forum. But I decided to cash in my Explorer in all the recent hype, needed a black dial to go with my Datejust, found a cheap Odin on eBay, and came back to find y'all still wandering around in your pajamas muttering at the moon.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.
> 
> ...


The white is not for me but I like the blue version. Looking forward to the release. I was considering a turquoise, but I might go for the blue one here.


----------



## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> View attachment 15850545
> 
> 
> dope!


That looks amazing.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Thanks mate! That's what I want to hear
> 
> The white dial will be matte white, with black hands and hour marker frames.


I like the white. I do like contrast but I find the all steel version very interesting to me. When and how much? Is my question? I assume in about 6 months we'll get a more concrete date?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I've asked if they have the same strap, but in 20mm, and orange. If so, I'll probably get some.


You say that so confidently. My guess would have been that after clearly communicating that order, you receive 18mm in red.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Hey, Watch the Sweep, at severe risk (near certainty) of irking Doc, you might consider packaging your brushed jubilee / curved end links as an option with the Subs. Really nice bracelet for those that dig the look. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That WG blue devil ray is seriously good-looking.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> ...found a cheap Odin on eBay, and came back to find y'all still wandering around in your pajamas muttering at the moon.


You say that like it's a bad thing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> The white is not for me but I like the blue version. Looking forward to the release. I was considering a turquoise, but I might go for the blue one here.


It'll be coming out with the rest of the DR's in the next release (or shortly after), and will be the same price as the DR's, which will probably be going up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> You say that so confidently. My guess would have been that after clearly communicating that order, you receive 18mm in red.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Turns out they do have them, and I asked for some.

So...we'll see if you're right soon enough.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Well, $hlt. I was counting on you to buy one of each version.


Um, yeah, about that...


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## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Thanks mate! That's what I want to hear
> 
> The white dial will be matte white, with black hands and hour marker frames.


if they will have a Miyota I would be in on the white dial 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bigjamesdean said:


> if they will have a Miyota I would be in on the white dial
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They won't.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> I like the white. I do like contrast but I find the all steel version very interesting to me. When and how much? Is my question? I assume in about 6 months we'll get a more concrete date?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


As Chris says, they'll be released around the same time as the next batch of regular DevilRays, and pricing will be the same as those.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

3WR said:


> Hey, Watch the Sweep, at severe risk (near certainty) of irking Doc, you might consider packaging your brushed jubilee / curved end links as an option with the Subs. Really nice bracelet for those that dig the look.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To be honest I don't think there's enough demand to start creating bundles with specific aftermarket bracelets. Especially as our curved endlinks are generic.

Of course, if people wanted to try it for themselves they're most welcome, and we have a 10% discount code that would save people a bit on their order.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.
> 
> ...


I buy lots of straps from you guys.

I don't have one, but one of the main reasons why the DevilRay rocks is the multi-colour depth of dive band around the edge of the dial. It's kind of central to the look.
But other than that, I still think they look pretty cool. 
Just my tuppence, of course.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> I buy lots of straps from you guys.
> 
> I don't have one, but one of the main reasons why the DevilRay rocks is the multi-colour depth of dive band around the edge of the dial. It's kind of central to the look.
> But other than that, I still think they look pretty cool.
> Just my tuppence, of course.


Yeah, get the appeal of the depth ring, but it limits what you can do with the rest of the design. I tried to go with colours that would have a wide appeal, and which were still noticeably different from Chris' previous DR's.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Bought a nato. But before it arrived, I found the perfect strap for the watch I'd bought it for. So I put it on my Barracuda instead. I'm inclined to like it.

I think it rocks, but I'm not sure if it's a bit "double-denim" ??


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting the renders they look cool.

With the blue, which previous NTH model blue would you be using? (just so I can get a better idea how the blue will work in differing light conditions)

For thoughts, 
I second mconlonx's suggestions of orange dot on the blue dial and black outer track on bezel for the white dial.

I also like Doc's suggestion of the Ti color but if possible I would have it on the minute track of the bezel for both (if possible)

I find at times the minute track is difficult to read in natural sunlight (not a criticism just an observation)

Whatever you do please keep us updated, the DevilRay is a killer watch! I am already saving for the 2021 release, my collection needs a turquoise and maybe an exclusive colour?

Pictures better than words-


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Bought a nato. But before it arrived, I found the perfect strap for the watch I'd bought it for. So I put it on my Barracuda instead. I'm inclined to like it.
> 
> I think it rocks, but I'm not sure if it's a bit "double-denim" ??
> View attachment 15852189


Not at all. I think it's a good look. I've seen a fair number of pics of that model on brown straps, and it always seems like a smart choice.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Bought a nato. But before it arrived, I found the perfect strap for the watch I'd bought it for. So I put it on my Barracuda instead. I'm inclined to like it.
> 
> I think it rocks, but I'm not sure if it's a bit "double-denim" ??
> View attachment 15852189


I think it pairs well!

Ah, just realized Doc already said it. NRA


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> Thanks for posting the renders they look cool.
> 
> With the blue, which previous NTH model blue would you be using? (just so I can get a better idea how the blue will work in differing light conditions)
> 
> ...


*On the blue *- the blue bezel insert will be the same "dark blue" PVD we've been using for the NTH Subs (Santa Cruz, Odin Blue, Nacken Modern Blue, Barracuda Blue).

The dial will be the same Pantone color seen on the Odin Blue. For now, this is "the" NTH Blue, as it's the best match we've found for the PVD blue bezel inserts.

























Guys who've been around a while will smirk at me discussing "what shade of blue" it is (it goes back to an annoyingly persistent debate on the Commander 300 project of 2015), but...I think it's a good blue. It's vibrant, but fairly neutral, which is to say its hue doesn't lean too much towards either green or purple.

Personally, my experience with it has been that it stands out in my memory as being a lighter shade, but it's actually fairly dark. I think how its perceived depends a bit on the lighting conditions, but also shows that it is a good match for the bezel insert, which can also look lighter or darker depending on the light.

*On the bezels* - the thing about the DevilRay is that the inner scale isn't an insert. It's machined into the underlying part, the bezel ring itself. Only the outer ring is an insert.

So, adding a contrasting base color to the outer scale is easy. We just do PVD plating on the insert before assembly. But to add a base color to the inner ring is more difficult. It would require plating the entire bezel ring, which would include the teeth.

In addition to the added cost, with such a subtle difference in appearance, it would create concerns about assembly errors, and so I'm loathe to even consider it.

None of this is to argue against the point that the white markings can be harder to read on the stainless bezels, in certain lights. It's a compromise we make in order to lume the bezel markings, rather than simply filling the markings in with black paint.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Trying out the UV light to charge my lume....


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> *On the blue *- the blue bezel insert will be the same "dark blue" PVD we've been using for the NTH Subs (Santa Cruz, Odin Blue, Nacken Modern Blue, Barracuda Blue).
> 
> The dial will be the same Pantone color seen on the Odin Blue. For now, this is "the" NTH Blue, as it's the best match we've found for the PVD blue bezel inserts.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the fast reply, real life photos of the blue is a big help, totally get your decisioning on the leaving the inner ring on the bezel raw stainless.

For me the white in the renders was lacking something, the Ti color would sort of match the chapter ring.....maybe?


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.
> 
> ...


Are you guys back to using the v1 bracelet for this release as suggested in the renders?


----------



## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.
> 
> ...


I've been waiting for the right time to get a Devil Ray and now I've found it. I think the only way I won't end up with the white dial version of these is if they sell out before I can get on the site on release day.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Dtn8 said:


> I second mconlonx's suggestions of orange dot on the blue dial and *black outer track on bezel for the white dial*.


Maybe... I dunno... something like this:










I know why some might prefer steel or "Titanium-color" PVD, but this does look pretty slick...


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Dtn8 said:


> Thanks for the fast reply, real life photos of the blue is a big help, totally get your decisioning on the leaving the inner ring on the bezel raw stainless.
> 
> For me the white in the renders was lacking something, the Ti color would sort of match the chapter ring.....maybe?


This is the Ti mockup, and I'll admit that I think Chris was right about this one!


----------



## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Slant said:


> Are you guys back to using the v1 bracelet for this release as suggested in the renders?


No, these renders just have the old bracelet on. The final product will use the v2.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> Thanks for the fast reply, real life photos of the blue is a big help, totally get your decisioning on the leaving the inner ring on the bezel raw stainless.
> 
> For me the white in the renders was lacking something, the Ti color would sort of match the chapter ring.....maybe?


Don't go by these illustrations too much. Especially with the bezel insert colors, since we don't have Pantones, we're somewhat guessing at how to illustrate them. I'm also not 100% certain that our illustration of the chapter ring is entirely accurate.

But, yes, I think the Ti color will make for a nice contrast, and also complement the chapter ring.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Really enjoying this guy today...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here have any decent pics of the turquoise DevilRay on something that is NOT the v.1 bracelet? I could use some for the website.

Pic for attention:


----------



## oiram (May 25, 2010)

Gonna throw this out... Any chance of offering a smooth/no rotating bezel for models that share the same case as the Nacken, Barracuda, Odin, etc.? Kinda like this Black Bay Heritage below.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

oiram said:


> Gonna throw this out... Any chance of offering a smooth/no rotating bezel for models that share the same case as the Nacken, Barracuda, Odin, etc.? Kinda like this Black Bay Heritage below.
> View attachment 15853358


Just buy an Atticus Pelican.


----------



## oiram (May 25, 2010)

docvail said:


> Just buy an Atticus Pelican.
> 
> View attachment 15853374
> 
> ...


Fair enough... just seems your stuff is top quality.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

oiram said:


> Fair enough... just seems your stuff is top quality.


Atticus will be too. Same factory. That's the new brand being started by Rusty, part of our design team. If you like NTH's quality, you'll like Atticus's.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone else having problems posting images using Tapatalk?

When I choose "Gallery", which used to mean my phone's gallery, it tries to make me re-log-in, so I guess it's trying to access the WUS gallery (which I don't use).

When I choose "attachment", which gets me into my phone's gallery, the image never shows up here.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Just buy an Atticus Pelican.
> 
> View attachment 15853397


Ah the Atticus Pelican. 
The flagship model of Rustys first LE run.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Anyone else having problems posting images using Tapatalk?
> 
> When I choose "Gallery", which used to mean my phone's gallery, it tries to make me re-log-in, so I guess it's trying to access the WUS gallery (which I don't use).
> 
> When I choose "attachment", which gets me into my phone's gallery, the image never shows up here.


Same here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RickHoliday (May 26, 2018)

Still loving this old guy


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> Ah the Atticus Pelican.
> The flagship model of Rustys first LE run.


I'm partial to the Icarus, but if he ever does a navy Pelion with white/blue lume...


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> 1 - only Doc can tell
> 4. NTH Carolina
> 2 & 3- there is a stunning mod floating about here with sword hands on a barracuda blue. No idea if they are OEM. Not that I think that it matters because..
> 
> ...


One Carolina had a hand swap that I know of and they don't go for sale often and usually stay within bsh

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Watch That Sweep said:


> This is the Ti mockup, and I'll admit that I think Chris was right about this one!
> View attachment 15852750


Yeah I agree, I think this would look boss, I think my bank balance is going to take a fair hit when these release.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Anyone else having problems posting images using Tapatalk?
> 
> When I choose "Gallery", which used to mean my phone's gallery, it tries to make me re-log-in, so I guess it's trying to access the WUS gallery (which I don't use).
> 
> When I choose "attachment", which gets me into my phone's gallery, the image never shows up here.


I've had that problem. I have had endless trouble trying to upload pictures to Tapatalk.
I gave up ages ago. I now mostly look at wus on my telephone. I just use desktop view, expanding the screen as necessary. It's second nature now, and quite logical to use.
What it means is everything is easy to do, find, and upload. I'm sorry that's not more help with TappityTap.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

catsteeth said:


> I've had that problem. I have had endless trouble trying to upload pictures to Tapatalk.
> I gave up ages ago. I now mostly look at wus on my telephone. I just use desktop view, expanding the screen as necessary. It's second nature now, and quite logical to use.
> What it means is everything is easy to do, find, and upload. I'm sorry that's not more help with TappityTap.


Site has massively improved for phone usage since the update. But why would you use it in desktop mode on phone??


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Wimads said:


> Site has massively improved for phone usage since the update. But why would you use it in desktop mode on phone??


Everything is there on the page, it just makes everything seem much more logical.
I'm so used to expanding and shrinking, and zooming around. That the linear and low information mobile format is actually just really annoying.

I actually do it with a lot of sites, (newspapers normally, that tends to be the only other thing I look at online apart from watch magazines).
It's like the difference between a talking book and a book. A talking book will sometimes have up to two thirds of the story edited out. While a book is everything, all the information is there.

Horses for courses, of course.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

catsteeth said:


> Everything is there on the page, it just makes everything seem much more logical.
> I'm so used to expanding and shrinking, and zooming around. That the linear and low information mobile format is actually just really annoying.
> 
> I actually do it with suite a lot of sites, (newspapers normally, that tends to be the only other thing I look at online apart from watch magazines).
> ...


Just curious, what information/features are missing in the mobile view? Have not found anything missing so far honestly, just things arranged differently.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Wimads said:


> Just curious, what information/features are missing in the mobile view? Have not found anything missing so far honestly, just things arranged differently.


Going back to look at the mobile view for the 1st time since Transmogrification Day (if I made that word up, sorry... not sorry). It does seem much better, and yes it's seems like everything is there or navigable too.

But I just find both the desktop layout, and ability to see a whole page rather than a part, so much easier to navigate.
You have to remember that for me entering into my dotage, or middle age, my mind has become less agile. A _lot_ less agile...


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Just buy an Atticus Pelican.
> 
> View attachment 15853397


Thanks for the Heads-up Doc, just preordered this after reading through all 58 pages of the Atticus thread (I should really do some actual work). 
There was me thinking it was only science fiction author recommendations I would get from this thread (Greg Egan in a post from AGES ago)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Thanks for the Heads-up Doc, just preordered this after reading through all 58 pages of the Atticus thread (I should really do some actual work).
> There was me thinking it was only science fiction author recommendations I would get from this thread (Greg Egan in a post from AGES ago)


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

gavindavie said:


> Thanks for the Heads-up Doc, just preordered this after reading through all 58 pages of the Atticus thread (I should really do some actual work).
> There was me thinking it was only science fiction author recommendations I would get from this thread (Greg Egan in a post from AGES ago)


Was the Greg Egan post mine ?? I love his books. I can see my self boring everyone to death banging on about his stuff. 
I've certainly recommended him on wus before, along with Ian M Banks, and Alistair Reynolds. I love my hard Sci-fi.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 15854426


I've read a couple of his, the phrase amphetamine psychosis always seems to spring to mind. Seriously good, twisty, ideas.
Not read the above one, a reissue I believe.. (according to Google anyway).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> I've been waiting for the right time to get a Devil Ray and now I've found it. I think the only way I won't end up with the white dial version of these is if they sell out before I can get on the site on release day.


You do realize the white dial of the v.2 DR is still available at IntoWatch, yes? They have the last few pieces in the world left available.









인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com





Email [email protected] if you need help ordering.


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Got the email blast showing the return of the Dolphin Magenta...









Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> Got the email blast showing the return of the Dolphin Magenta...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because we made 100 of the Ice already.

We only made 50 of the Magenta, and had 50 dials left over, so we asked for 5 dates / 5 no-dates to be assembled, using 10 of the remaining 40 stainless v.1 Subs cases.

The Ice is more than likely retired.

Try eBay, Watch Recon, or putting up a WTB thread in the sales section.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Lightly modded Santa Fe with colour matched lume now in affect. I believe someone asked for a lume picture a while back, so here it is.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> Because we made 100 of the Ice already.
> 
> We only made 50 of the Magenta, and had 50 dials left over, so we asked for 5 dates / 5 no-dates to be assembled, using 10 of the remaining 40 stainless v.1 Subs cases.
> 
> ...


Or just DM me @cghorr01 :








WITHDRAWN


NTH Sub




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

catsteeth said:


> Was the Greg Egan post mine ?? I love his books. I can see my self boring everyone to death banging on about his stuff.
> I've certainly recommended him on wus before, along with Ian M Banks, and Alistair Reynolds. I love my hard Sci-fi.


Yup, 'twas you catsteeth. Thanks, I enjoyed the ones I have read so far.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> You do realize the white dial of the v.2 DR is still available at IntoWatch, yes? They have the last few pieces in the world left available.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly I was waiting for the teal version not white dial but I feel like the white dial watch gecko release would go really well with my dolphin ice which is why I'm into that one


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> Honestly I was waiting for the teal version not white dial but I feel like the white dial watch gecko release would go really well with my dolphin ice which is why I'm into that one


The one watch will "go" really well with a different watch?

Uhm...

You're not one of those two-at-the-same-time guys, are you?

When it comes to watches, I mean.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> Anyone here have any decent pics of the turquoise DevilRay on something that is NOT the v.1 bracelet? I could use some for the website.
> 
> Pic for attention


Not my photo:










I think it might be from @uvalaw2005


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

gokce said:


> Not my photo:
> 
> View attachment 15855356
> 
> ...


Great pic but is anyone else weird about straps that are a fairly close match to the dial color but not quite a match? I know it's silly but I would rather have either a perfect (or close) match or a different enough shade that you can tell it is not supposed to match.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ike2 said:


> Great pic but is anyone else weird about straps that are a fairly close match to the dial color but not quite a match? I know it's silly but I would rather have either a perfect (or close) match or a different enough shade that you can tell it is not supposed to match.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes I am. I'm quite touchy about colour matching.

Not just in the sense of matching hue and tone, but also in the "double denim mistake" sense. 
It's why I'm a little surprised by how much I liked my brown Barracuda on the khaki strap. But then I suppose it's not brown and brown.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

gokce said:


> Not my photo:
> 
> View attachment 15855356
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's mine. Funny, when I saw Chris's request I said to myself: "too bad I never had the turquoise Devil Ray."


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Ike2 said:


> Great pic but is anyone else weird about straps that are a fairly close match to the dial color but not quite a match? I know it's silly but I would rather have either a perfect (or close) match or a different enough shade that you can tell it is not supposed to match.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't love it either, but it was close enough to merit a photo.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

A couple more from the same set:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WTH? Did my earlier post not post?

The watch in Gabe's pics is a proto. The crystal was different, and obscured the depth gauge. I think I have what I need for the website, so we're good. Thanks everyone.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Sorry, my mistake.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Sorry, my mistake.


Not at all. They are great pics. I just can't use them.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

uvalaw2005 said:


> I didn't love it either, but it was close enough to merit a photo.


How do you make it appear to be hovering in zero G? That's a very cool effect.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ike2 said:


> How do you make it appear to be hovering in zero G? That's a very cool effect.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We discussed that, I reckon he trains poltergeists to do tricks. But I'd love to know too ??


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Ike2 said:


> How do you make it appear to be hovering in zero G? That's a very cool effect.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The watch is resting on a tall wooden toy block that is not visible from above, like one of these:


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vail's finest work


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Vail's finest work
> 
> View attachment 15856660


That's an ancient panel behind that watch. What aircraft are you in?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> That's an ancient panel behind that watch. What aircraft are you in?


T6

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Boom.


















Honestly, I feel it takes it to a whole new level.

But Doc, if these sell well, I see a flurry of pissy emails headed your way. Mostly from non-readers of this thread. I had to swap out the spring bars to "fix" that whole issue with the strap you were going on about.

Just a heads up.

Edit: I guess I should add my impressions! The strap _is_ pretty damn nice. The rubber is comfortable as hell and conforms to the wrist perfectly. It's more pleasant to wear than my two Bonetto straps, by leaps and bounds.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Trying the DevilRay on rubber to see if I like the look. Probably an incoming in my future&#8230;.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The Tikuna is another looker. For now I think I will focus on finding a Santa Fe and maybe pick up a Scorpene and get a cool bezel for it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Boom.
> 
> View attachment 15857419
> 
> ...


Glad you like the strap.

The Spring Bars are mentioned on the product page of the strap. I've also prepped my team to be prepared for emails and other messages regarding the straps fitting / not-fitting.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> The Tikuna is another looker. For now I think I will focus on finding a Santa Fe and maybe pick up a Scorpene and get a cool bezel for it.


Finding a Sante Fe will likely be difficult. We only made 25 total, and that was over 3 years ago.

There's exactly one new Tikuna left in the world - NTH Tikuna Date.

There are only a handful of Scorpènes left, all at IntoWatch in Korea. Email [email protected] if you need help ordering. I forget if it's the with-date or no-date, but I know there's only one of those left - 인투와치.

EDIT - I meant there are only a handful of the Scorpène Nomad left, all at IntoWatch. Not sure why I assumed Josiah meant the Nomad when I read his post.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Glad you like the strap.
> 
> The Spring Bars are mentioned on the product page of the strap. I've also prepped my team to be prepared for emails and other messages regarding the straps fitting / not-fitting.
> 
> View attachment 15858448


Ah, I didn't read jack. I heard "available", I added to cart and purchased. Props to your shippers though, I received notification it was packaged and shipped within a few hours of placing my order.

I also completely forgot that using the smaller bars allowed it to work with the DR and Orthos, as I don't own either, so my brain dropped that bit of info.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Ah, I didn't read jack. I heard "available", I added to cart and purchased. Props to your shippers though, I received notification it was packaged and shipped within a few hours of placing my order.
> 
> I also completely forgot that using the smaller bars allowed it to work with the DR and Orthos, as I don't own either, so my brain dropped that bit of info.


No worries. I totally expect that this will be a recurring thing. But what are my options?

1. Include both sizes of spring bars?

We'll have to package each pair separately, and label them, and provide printed instructions on which bars to use depending on the watch. Hopefully people would read those instructions, but we know not everyone would, and we'd still get people emailing to say the strap doesn't fit.

We didn't know that the spring bars were the missing link when we sent all the straps to our warehouse. We figured that out after. It was too late to include another pair of bars, and label everything.

That would have been a pretty large undertaking just to sell a strap, but it's an option for the future, maybe, depending on how things go in the near-term.

2. Include neither?

It's an option. Whichever watch you have, you're more likely to use the bars from the bracelet. But then some people b1tch that we didn't include spring bars with the strap, which seems kind of cheapskate, and potentially, getting the bars out of the strap can be tough, if it's a very tight fit.

3. Do what we did - include 1 set of smaller spring bars.

I'm not 100% certain the smaller bars are needed to fit the strap to the Orthos or DevilRay, but we know the strap WILL fit those watches using those bars, and the straps came with them, so why not include them?

The only hiccup will be the people who ignore what's on the product page of the website, and try to use those bars with the 2K1's, but never think to try to use the bars from the bracelet.

It's not overly obvious, but the fact that the 22mm straps are listed as being for either the 2K1's, DevilRay, or Orthos leads me to hope that people might think that the spring bars are there when the bars from the bracelet won't work. But, I'm not expecting everyone to realize that, which is why I've prepped my team to be prepared to address questions about the bars/straps.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> No worries. I totally expect that this will be a recurring thing. But what are my options?
> 
> 1. Include both sizes of spring bars?
> 
> ...







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)




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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## valuedcustomer (Dec 12, 2017)

So nice

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

valuedcustomer said:


> So nice
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How was it, getting the strap onto the watch? I've already heard from someone saying he couldn't do it.


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## valuedcustomer (Dec 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> How was it, getting the strap onto the watch? I've already heard from someone saying he couldn't do it.


Wasn't easy, but eventually it just went on.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)




----------



## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

DR lume


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

MuckyMark said:


> DR lume


Awesome pic! I love how you captured the lumed crown.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Finding a Sante Fe will likely be difficult. We only made 25 total, and that was over 3 years ago.
> 
> There's exactly one new Tikuna left in the world - NTH Tikuna Date.
> 
> There are only a handful of Scorpènes left, all at IntoWatch in Korea. Email [email protected] if you need help ordering. I forget if it's the with-date or no-date, but I know there's only one of those left - 인투와치.


25? Didn't appreciate how few there were. I'm still going to keep an eye out. Hope I can find one. It'd be my first full-lumed dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> 25? Didn't appreciate how few there were. I'm still going to keep an eye out. Hope I can find one. It'd be my first full-lumed dial.


If full-lume is the only criterion, consider the Scorpène White, which is still available (for now, not many pieces left).

























Scorpene White


Don't think of it as retro. The NTH Subs are our tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period. Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic, rugged style...




watchgauge.com













인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com





Serious Watches even has one of the 5 DLC versions we assembled.









NTH


NTH is an American brand that is inspired by classic and vintage designs but takes watches to the next level. To the Nth degree!




www.seriouswatches.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just saw this on FB. A reminder of why I don't like ceramic bezels.

Granted, this watch is 7 years old, and the guy who posted this said it's been in the ocean, etc. But still, I've seen people complain about this happening with watches that were less than a year old.


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## ocoee (Oct 4, 2018)

New rubber strap for a rainy day...


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Still my favorite NTH release. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Still rollin' with the Nacken. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

Rollin with the newbie still









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Question for anyone with REAL expertise in international logistics, importing to the US, and exporting from the US...

(*I'm just talking about imports from my vendors, and exports to my retailers, not my customers' orders. Our warehouse has insanely good international rates from FedEx, that simply cannot be beaten.*)

I swear to God, if you don't know your a$$ from your elbow when it comes to this stuff, and you wade into this anyway, I will come to your house, break into it, and absolutely demolish your toilet.

You've been warned...

I just got an account with DHL. I'm now set up with them, UPS, and FedEx.

For the most part, when I'm shipping something, I try to use FedEx as much as possible, because we've had good experience with them, and quite honestly, creating shipments on their website is the least cumbersome process. Creating an international shipment on the UPS site is terrible, and while I haven't created a shipment with DHL in years, I had a big problem with a big shipment I sent with them, and it left a very bad taste.

But, Serious has a beef with FedEx, so we have to use UPS to ship to them. Watch Gecko prefers DHL. In both cases, we're using their shipping accounts, so I kind of have to ship with the courier they prefer, but that requires me to have an account with those companies.

Additionally, while shipping with FedEx from Hong Kong is not a problem at all, apparently getting vendors in mainland China to ship directly to us with FedEx is impossible. DHL and UPS are the only options for our boxes, and straps, and the UV torches. Basically everything but the watches. Up to now, I've basically just been telling our vendors there to ship with whichever service they think is better, and adding it to my invoice.

There's literally no way for me to compare rates on getting stuff from China to here, or from here to the UK or EU. The "quotes" on their websites are useless, because they don't reflect the lower rates we get, and even if they did, they require info I don't have, such as package weights and dimensions. I should have that stuff documented somewhere, but I don't.

I just got a rate sheet from DHL, but it stops at 70 pounds. The rep told me that for anything higher, which almost all my shipments would be, I'd get a "spot quote", which made my head hurt before he even explained the process - get all the shipment details, get his quote, approve the shipment, get the shipment number, send that back to him, to apply the shipping rate quote...

My head hurts. This is a pain in the balls.

My question is - is it worth me putting the time and effort into figuring out if we should use UPS or DHL with my stuff coming from China (or Hong Kong), or figuring out if we'd be saving money exporting from the US with either of them, instead of FedEx?

Or, is there an easier way?

Do logistics experts just know, "Oh, for importing from China, you definitely want to use this courier, but for exporting to the EU/UK (wherever), you should definitely use that courier"?

That's what I'm hoping, that someone with logistics expertise just knows that coming this way, either FedEx, DHL or UPS is the way to go, and going the other way, it's this or that carrier.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> My question is - is it worth me putting the time and effort into figuring out if we should use UPS or DHL with my stuff coming from China (or Hong Kong), or figuring out if we'd be saving money exporting from the US with either of them, instead of FedEx?


I work in a very different type of international logistics, so I don't work with these couriers, but I think it's worth considering a spot bid. We request these for almost every shipment nowadays, and I understand it's a pain, but I see consistent 10-15% savings over the "standard" estimates, which are basically just excel formula with huge buffers added and are based on a very simple volume calculations, but don't consider how the cargo will actually be palletized. The spot bid will basically get rid of the buffer and closer to a "true" shipping cost.

I guess it also depends on your cargo volume; if your shipments are usually just a pallet or two a few times per year, then there's not much margin for savings, and the "spot bid juice" mightn't be worth the squeeze.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Hi all, I work over at WatchGecko. As a lot of you might know, we're the UK distributor for NTH.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that we're working with Chris on two WatchGecko exclusive colours for the DevilRay! We're planning to make 25 units of each initially.
> 
> ...


A little late to the party here, but I do like that white dial with a splash of orange!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> I work in a very different type of international logistics, so I don't work with these couriers, but I think it's worth considering a spot bid. We request these for almost every shipment nowadays, and I understand it's a pain, but I see consistent 10-15% savings over the "standard" estimates, which are basically just excel formula with huge buffers added and are based on a very simple volume calculations, but don't consider how the cargo will actually be palletized. The spot bid will basically get rid of the buffer and closer to a "true" shipping cost.
> 
> I guess it also depends on your cargo volume; if your shipments are usually just a pallet or two a few times per year, then there's not much margin for savings, and the "spot bid juice" mightn't be worth the squeeze.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's my fear, that I'll end up spending hours and hours trying to "save money", just to end up saving $30, or worse, realize it could have just gone with FedEx from the jump.

It's like my wife driving ten minutes out of her way to save $1.70 filling her tank.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> That's my fear, that I'll end up spending hours and hours trying to "save money", just to end up saving $30, or worse, realize it could have just gone with FedEx from the jump.
> 
> It's like my wife driving ten minutes out of her way to save $1.70 filling her tank.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


No clue about international logistics. But I can get petrol 4p a litre cheaper at the super market about 7 miles from my house. Or fill up across the road and spend about £2 more. I go to the petrol stn across the road, guess where my girlfriend prefers to go 🤦‍♂️


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

My wife will drive an hour and pay $8 toll on the NJ turnpike to use a $00.10 coupon. Because “discount”.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

For international air shipments from China/HK, I'm happy enough to let the vendor send via DHL and include courier charges in a final invoice. 

I once went through the exercise of bidding it on our end, as an infrequent user of DHL, and the charge by the vendor (even assuming some markup) was less than the quote we received from DHL. I haven't done a spot quote, since. 

We have a corporate UPS acct, and I also did a comp quote with them, and while it was marginally cheaper, considering headache on our end, and possibility of things getting messed up by our vendor half a world away... not worth saving $10 on a $200+ shipping charge and have to deal with it myself. 

For bulk shipments we utilize a surface freight forwarder who takes it from Port of HK to our warehouse door, DDP delivery. But that's not your game. You might check into air freight forwarding companies who do consolidated shipping. Upshot is cheaper shipping, and someone else dealing with import papework; downside is they don't do it for free, and consolidation means waiting for stuff to ship until they have a full unit (container, pallet, mail bag, etc.), usually on a weekly basis, which can set your shipping back up to a week, if your vendor misses a shipping deadline. 

But feel free to come to our place and clean out our fridge, anyway. I would fully expect the toilet to be destroyed after such a foray...


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Still kraken the Nacken









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> For international air shipments from China/HK, I'm happy enough to let the vendor send via DHL and include courier charges in a final invoice.
> 
> I once went through the exercise of bidding it on our end, as an infrequent user of DHL, and the charge by the vendor (even assuming some markup) was less than the quote we received from DHL. I haven't done a spot quote, since.
> 
> ...


In all seriousness...every time I get started with a courier, I get the phone calls and emails from their reps, interrogating me about my shipping habits, and promising me the possibility of huge savings with spot quotes.

I've yet to bother. I keep trying to tell them that my shipping volume probably won't be enough for either of us to be going to the trouble they seem intent on making us go to, but they insist we go through the whole rigmarole anyway.

They're all like "if you open that spreadsheet I sent you, and look at the tab marked 'Export Matrix'..." while my eyes glaze over.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, true story - 

When I got out of the Army in 2000, I started a "break a toilet my first week at a new job" trend that adversely affected my first five employers. 

So when I threaten to break a toilet, you should take me seriously.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I swear to God, if you don't know your a$$ from your elbow when it comes to this stuff, and you wade into this anyway, I will come to your house, break into it, and absolutely demolish your toilet.
> 
> You've been warned...





docvail said:


> It's like my wife driving ten minutes out of her way to save $1.70 filling her tank.


to the first point, Come on over, im working from home, and bored. I got 2 bathrooms, so im good. we can grab a pizza.

and that second point made me laugh, my wife does that exact thing, and for some reason it drives me mental!


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Late breakfast...


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## Jas26 (Mar 9, 2021)

docvail said:


> Also, true story -
> 
> When I got out of the Army in 2000, I started a "break a toilet my first week at a new job" trend that adversely affected my first five employers.
> 
> So when I threaten to break a toilet, you should take me seriously.


TMI 😉


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Late breakfast...
> View attachment 15867481


Bruh, that's early dessert.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jas26 said:


> TMI


I prefer to think of it as "informed consent".

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Think these came out pretty well. End-links fit better than the protos seen in the earlier photos.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Think these came out pretty well. End-links fit better than the protos seen in the earlier photos.
> 
> View attachment 15867981
> View attachment 15867982


Lovely blue, and great indices. Whats the pattern/texture/effect of the blue on the dial called, please?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Lovely blue, and great indices. Whats the pattern/texture/effect of the blue on the dial called, please?


Uhm...so, it doesn't exactly have a name.

The center section is created using the same method used to create the horizontal "wood-grain" effect we've got for the Antilles, except in this case, instead of a parallel grain, it's radiating outward from center.

If anyone has a suggestion for it, let's hear it. It's not exactly "wood grain", is it, unless we're looking into a cross-sectioned piece, but not even exactly that, as there are no rings.

EDIT - maybe "wood stump"? Doesn't exactly sound very sexy, does it?

The outer section? To me, it most closely resembles denim, so let's call it "denim".


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Uhm...so, it doesn't exactly have a name.
> 
> The center section is created using the same method used to create the horizontal "wood-grain" effect we've got for the Antilles, except in this case, instead of a parallel grain, it's radiating outward from center.
> 
> ...


Kinda reminds me of a sunburst dial. Since you think the pattern looks like wood at the center and wanna call the outside ring "denim"...

My vote goes to "woodburst in denim".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All I wanna do is a zooma zoom zoom and a lume lume!









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)




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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Stump face dial, hauté. 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

30 seconds with a thesaurus on google.....

Bewildering Circuit Corduroy (Stump, ring, denim)


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

My beloved Amphion Vintage Gilt


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Azores Azure Meteor Shower


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

docvail said:


> Think these came out pretty well. End-links fit better than the protos seen in the earlier photos.
> 
> View attachment 15867981
> View attachment 15867982


Once you've set the internal bezel are you able to lock it in place?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

rcorreale said:


> Once you've set the internal bezel are you able to lock it in place?


Yes. The 2 o'clock crown sets the internal bezel and screws down locking the internal bezel.









The v.2 Tropics - A Deeper Dive


A different sort of diver. Compressor-Case Inspired The original NTH Tropics were inspired by the compressor case diving watches which proliferated from the late '50s to mid '70s - marvels of engineering which established an iconic design language. The Super Compressor watch case was patented in...




nthwatches.com





Is there any weave pattern to that Azores dial? If so, there are a dozen (or more) different types of weave patterns. Percale, flannel, sateen, etc. Might be too obscure.

That said, I'm kind of liking the design. I love my Legend Diver but the lume sucks. I know, I know, it's a re-issue of a vintage piece but still. I also like the Oris Sixty-Five with it's massive lume and vintage look but kind of feel ambivalent about Oris.

The Azores has lume galore like I wish the LLD did, a real vintage-y look, and a lumed internal bezel in a cool double crown case of modern build and quality.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rcorreale said:


> Once you've set the internal bezel are you able to lock it in place?


Yes. The crown at two is a screw-down crown. Screwing it down locks the bezel in place.


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

docvail said:


> Yes. The crown at two is a screw-down crown. Screwing it down locks the bezel in place.


Very good, thank you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents...just a heads-up.

For the next round of DevilRays, we'll be raising the price. I haven't figured out how much yet. It'll be at least $550, if not $575. I can't help it, and can't avoid it. Shipping and other costs having been going up steadily. The last release was actually under-priced, without me realizing it until after I'd shipped them all. It is what it is.

There are still half a dozen DevilRays available at $525, though, from IntoWatch in S.Korea - 인투와치.

They have the white, no-date only, and the black, either with or without the date, though I think they're down to just one no-date.

I know, I know - the website is in Korean. My browser (Chrome) translates it automatically, but even so, I think the translation stops at some point before you can complete checkout.

That said, the owner, Jun, is fluent in English, based on my many communications with him, and is more than happy to assist anyone who wants to make a purchase from his store. As a bonus, the man seems to never be asleep, so he's likely to get back to you in a timely way, if you email him for assistance, at [email protected].


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Can I just say what a huge fan I am of the Ron Swanson "I know more than you" response we get, when dealing with some customers?



















Wait for it...










Aaannnndddd...there it is. I own some stuff, so I know all about this stuff, more than you.


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## Roningrad (Aug 2, 2018)

Hi Doc. Missing the Odin!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Can I just say what a huge fan I am of the Ron Swanson "I know more than you" response we get, when dealing with some customers?
> 
> View attachment 15869855
> 
> ...


Ron Swanson is my spirit animal. Him and Greg House.

There's your insight into my real life personality for today.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Roningrad said:


> Hi Doc. Missing the Odin!


The Odin misses you!

Seriously, what are we talking about? Did you sell one, and regret it, or are you waiting on the ones we just got in for QC?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Ron Swanson is my spirit animal. Him and Greg House.
> 
> There's your insight into my real life personality for today.


I'd wager you're not generally as rude as the barnacle now turning my inbox into a toxic waste dump...


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I’ve learned to pop a bag of popcorn before catching up on this thread. And today I was not disappointed. Please don’t mind me… I’m just here for free entertainment while waiting for the new sub to be released.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I've learned to pop a bag of popcorn before catching up on this thread. And today I was not disappointed. Please don't mind me&#8230; I'm just here for free entertainment while waiting for the new sub to be released.


For real. Most days even I know I'm just here to entertain, rather than actually inform.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Oh boy, that should be a fun one to deal with. Gifted a Swiftsure. Maybe there is something wrong but man.

I just had a listen to some of my watches. They all make noise. I have a half dozen or so Miyota 9000 equipped watches. They all sound the same as my Thresher. Even my Omegas make noise. Different pitch maybe. The ETAs, the Longines. Incidentally, my sole Seiko with a 4R35 is the quietest.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I wouldn't mind a Swiftsure. I'll buy it off of them for treefiddy.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'd wager you're not generally as rude as the barnacle now turning my inbox into a toxic waste dump...
> 
> View attachment 15869965
> 
> ...


Nah. Not that salty. I'll call myself an idiot as easily as I do someone else. It _is _possible to be arrogant, egotistical and cocky while also admitting ones faults and shortcomings.

As for that clown. Let him keep running the rope out to hang himself. But I'm pretty sure that was already your plan.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

josiahg52 said:


> I wouldn't mind a Swiftsure. I'll buy it off of them for treefiddy.


Do it. And then send him a bunch of messages about the "unacceptable scraping sound".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Ike2 said:


> Do it. And then send him a bunch of messages about the "unacceptable scraping sound".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would immediately. Then I would post here demanding Chris fix it "or else."


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Can I just say what a huge fan I am of the Ron Swanson "I know more than you" response we get, when dealing with some customers?
> 
> View attachment 15869855
> 
> ...


Yikes ! This is exactly the kind of person I didn't want to sound like when I contacted you. Good Lord some customers are rude! And for the record no one lubes a watch like Dan lol. TBH I've never owned a 9015 that didn't have a noisy rotor. It's kind of the 9015 signature sound.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> Can I just say what a huge fan I am of the Ron Swanson "I know more than you" response we get, when dealing with some customers?
> 
> View attachment 15869855
> 
> ...


I'm actually glad you posted this. I had my Nazario on when I hopped in the car yesterday. Don't remember how I moved my arm, but got a very noticeable, "ZING, Zing, zing, zing" spinning sound from the watch. I thought it was odd, but I have a bumper automatic from the 40/50s that sounds like a spring bouncing something off it (which it is) with similar volume. And the time keeping on the Nazario is stoopid good, so I figured it's doing its thing. Now I know that it IS just the movement doing what it is designed to do. Good to hear!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

shrewboy said:


> I'm actually glad you posted this. I had my Nazario on when I hopped in the car yesterday. Don't remember how I moved my arm, but got a very noticeable, "ZING, Zing, zing, zing" spinning sound from the watch. I thought it was odd, but I have a bumper automatic from the 40/50s that sounds like a spring bouncing something off it (which it is) with similar volume. And the time keeping on the Nazario is stoopid good, so I figured it's doing its thing. Now I know that it IS just the movement doing what it is designed to do. Good to hear!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you have a glass top watch box, take your Nazario off and set it down, dial up, on the glass window. The glass with the hollow under works like a speaker and amplifies the sound of the free spin. It's pretty crazy if you've never heard it before.


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## Ofrankb (Mar 4, 2020)

Good ideas.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> View attachment 15869694


In addition to a possible rope fetish and a confirmed keen eye for spring bar issues, you photo guy has some real camera skills. I think DevilRays are cool, but not for me. When I see these, I start to waiver a bit on that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> In addition to a possible rope fetish and a confirmed keen eye for spring bar issues, you photo guy has some real camera skills. I think DevilRays are cool, but not for me. When I see these, I start to waiver a bit on that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's funny. One of the guys on our marketing team noticed the ropes, and made an off-hand remark about wondering what the photographers down-time activities might be.

I didn't specify what sort of props he should use. I just asked him to gin up some more "lifestyle" type shots, using whatever props he had around. I think the ropes are meant to evoke boats and sea-faring, which I guess aligns with the expected imagery associated with "diving" watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Yikes ! This is exactly the kind of person I didn't want to sound like when I contacted you. Good Lord some customers are rude! And for the record no one lubes a watch like Dan lol. TBH I've never owned a 9015 that didn't have a noisy rotor. It's kind of the 9015 signature sound.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You didn't sound like that. The vast majority of people who contact us don't. The vast majority of customers are nice enough, reasonable in their expectations, etc. Most of their support needs are handled with a minimum of fuss.

But I've come to realize, and grudgingly accept, that some fraction of a percent of customers will be some combination of stupid, lazy, cheap, or crazy.

It's got nothing to do with my business specifically, or watch geeks as a group. It's just the law of large numbers at work, and a reflection of humanity when observed in the macro.

Think about your daily experience. Most days, everyone you meet is relatively "normal". But eventually, and inevitably, you'll encounter someone who appears to be dumb as a box of rocks, or completely out of their mind.

Between the efforts we've gone to with our website and other customer communications, and my online activity, I think we probably have a smaller percentage of "stupid and / or crazy" within our customer ranks than many other brands.

My hope is that the ones with unreasonable expectations will self-select themselves right out of the picture, by choosing not to transact with my business. If they think it's because I'm an a**hole, I'm fine with that, so long as the mission is accomplished, and we don't have to deal with their lunacy.

But, in this case, someone bought this guy one of our watches as a gift, apparently. Those situations will happen. If there was a legit problem for us to sort out, we'd be working to sort it out, even if the guy was a jerk about it. Unfortunately, what this guy is (rudely) complaining about is in fact normal.

I don't love telling someone they can send a watch in for additional lubrication, when it isn't needed, especially if the person's been rude or lied to us (as this guy was and did). But it's the only solution we can offer, and if it smooths things over, we'll do it.

Sadly, even when we try to help, sometimes it's just not enough to please the customer.

There was another one earlier in the week, with a different issue. It really had nothing to do with us - nothing we did or didn't do. In fact, the customer's issue arose as a direct result of the customer's own decisions and actions.

But we still took the time (over an hour of my time) to try to understand what happened, and see if we could help in some way. That didn't stop the guy from lecturing us about our apparently poor service.

C'est la vie.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Helpful “how to” hint for solving loud rotor sounds:

1: fully wind movement 
2: unscrew crown fully(if equipped)
3: grip crown gently with needle nose vice grips
4: in a sudden but stable motion, pull pliers away from watch case ensuring a safe removal
5: using straw nozzle expanding foam, fill case until expanding foam exits the crown tube
6: quickly screw crown back into position, by turning in a clockwise rotational motion 
7: allow 3 hours for foam to stabilize, and fully penetrate the automatic movement(if equipped)
8: enjoy your newly muffled watch!


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Helpful "how to" hint for solving loud rotor sounds:
> 
> 1: fully wind movement
> 2: unscrew crown fully(if equipped)
> ...


You're joking, obviously, but I've seen and heard a surprising number of stories about attempted fixes which were profoundly ill-advised.

Filing a flat spot into the crown, grinding down the lugs, and one guy who ruined his expansion clasp trying to modify it - those are just the ones that stand out in my memory.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> Filing a flat spot into the crown, grinding down the lugs, and one guy who ruined his expansion clasp trying to modify it - those are just the ones that stand out in my memory.


The grinding down of the lugs is necessary, I heard one guy one time fell down and bloodied his wrist on them.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> You didn't sound like that. The vast majority of people who contact us don't. The vast majority of customers are nice enough, reasonable in their expectations, etc. Most of their support needs are handled with a minimum of fuss.
> 
> But I've come to realize, and grudgingly accept, that some fraction of a percent of customers will be some combination of stupid, lazy, cheap, or crazy.
> 
> ...


I've been enjoying reading about your CS issue, if that's completely the wrong way to phrase it, I hope you know what I mean.
Working in hospitality it's very similar. I work in Hotels where we really try our best for the customers. I can have hours and hours of paperwork and stuff to sort out, but before that I will spend literally hours trying to help customers with their sometimes very minor problems. That's fine, it's what we do.
From that_ I generally find 99% of guests are really nice people, are not meaning to be difficult, and don't mean to waste your time. _Most people are a little unaware of how much time they take up, but that's okay. It's just very pleasant to help them.

The interesting thing out of all that. Based on my work experience, I'm tempted to say out in the real world nearly everybody is a decent, well meaning, and helpful person.
_But I actually suspect that half of everyone we meet is in reality dangerously mental. _A large percentage of people are homicidal, thieving, dishonest, and I wouldn't trust my pet gerbil with them for one minute.
It's just weird. How guests seem, vs how I suspect people generally are 🤔


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

seatega said:


> The grinding down of the lugs is necessary, I heard one guy one time fell down and bloodied his wrist on them.


Lol ???
That's post of the week ?

....
Didn't the crown also pop out (because he'd ground the lugs), and kill him by servering his carotid artery. Then the lady who was passing with her new born baby slipped on the pool of his arterial blood. She fell off the train platform they were on, into the path of the speeding train which derailed with 700 passengers....the train hit the chemical plant making fireworks.... which was next to the nuclear submarine base... defcon 5 was declared by mistake.... full retaliatory launch was authorized....
I'm sorry, I just can't help it... ?


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Cats, 

I think I heard that on the news, something like; "End of the World blamed on NTH watch!, film at 11."


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

On that note, my 'Gilty' Amphion.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## admit-to-im (Feb 1, 2021)

docvail said:


> Gents...just a heads-up.
> 
> For the next round of DevilRays, we'll be raising the price. I haven't figured out how much yet. It'll be at least $550, if not $575. I can't help it, and can't avoid it. Shipping and other costs having been going up steadily. The last release was actually under-priced, without me realizing it until after I'd shipped them all. It is what it is.
> 
> ...


I relatively recently discovered the NTH watches and liking what I am seeing! Thanks for the heads up about the new Devilray. Is there a time estimate on when the new ones will be released? Fall 2021? Any significant changes in the new (second?) version?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

admit-to-im said:


> I relatively recently discovered the NTH watches and liking what I am seeing! Thanks for the heads up about the new Devilray. Is there a time estimate on when the new ones will be released? Fall 2021? Any significant changes in the new (second?) version?


Last year's release was the second (v.2) version. The v.1 was in 2018. The next releases, this year, will still be v.2.

We're expecting the first / next release around late July-ish. No major changes from last year's release, other than the price going up, and some additional colorways.

The black and white (silver) won't be back until the following release, likely later this year (October, if I had to guess) so the 6 pieces left in S. Korea are the last pieces of those colorways anyone will see for a while.

For the coming release (July), we'll have the sunburst blue (same as last year's release), and will be bringing back the turquoise and orange from the v.1.































We'll also have the Watch Gecko exclusive editions, though I suspect those will be at least a few weeks behind the others.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone looking for a Champagne v.1 Antilles? I'll vouch for the seller.









FS: NTH Antilles Champagne SOLD


I used to be a pretty active member of this forum, but I'm content with my collection and stopped posting as much. I'm selling this because it doesn't get used much; I think I find it a bit too large. Comes with the extra links but no box or papers (I might have to double check on the papers)...




www.watchuseek.com


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## admit-to-im (Feb 1, 2021)

docvail said:


> Last year's release was the second (v.2) version. The v.1 was in 2018. The next releases, this year, will still be v.2.
> 
> We're expecting the first / next release around late July-ish. No major changes from last year's release, other than the price going up, and some additional colorways.
> 
> ...


Right on! Thanks for such a quick reply. That silver is what I have (had?) my eye on...that turquoise is something else


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> On that note, my 'Gilty' Amphion.


its crazy how similar but how different our Amphions are! the sick part is I'd own both versions if I could.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I've been enjoying reading about your CS issue, if that's completely the wrong way to phrase it, I hope you know what I mean.
> Working in hospitality it's very similar. I work in Hotels where we really try our best for the customers. I can have hours and hours of paperwork and stuff to sort out, but before that I will spend literally hours trying to help customers with their sometimes very minor problems. That's fine, it's what we do.
> From that_ I generally find 99% of guests are really nice people, are not meaning to be difficult, and don't mean to waste your time. _Most people are a little unaware of how much time they take up, but that's okay. It's just very pleasant to help them.
> 
> ...


You have an extremely dark view of humanity, and I'm saying that as someone who has a pretty dim view.

For myself, I think my view changes based on recent experiences. Catch me at the end of a bad week, I'm likely praying for an asteroid to wipe us all out. But most weeks are pretty uneventful, in terms of run-ins with the worst among us.

Electronic communications seem to either reveal or enable some folks' worst tendencies. People are more surprised at belligerence in a public or face-to-face setting, and thus most people are going to be less likely to give in to their tempers in the real world. But in an email or private message, or even in public posts to social media, many people feel more emboldened to be wankers.

That said, since starting this business, I've been pleasantly surprised, numerous times, at how generous and kind so many people can be towards strangers. When a member here needed money so he and his wife could adopt the little girl they were fostering, folks came out of the woodwork to help. There have been several instances like that, over the years, wherein many people proved we're not just a bunch of savages.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> You have a extremely dark view of humanity, and I'm saying that as someone who has a pretty dim view.
> 
> For myself, I think my view changes based on recent experiences. Catch me at the end of a bad week, I'm likely praying for an asteroid to wipe us all out. But most weeks are pretty uneventful, in terms of run-ins with the worst among us.
> 
> ...


That's the twist. How I find nearly all the guests decent, kind, delightful people when I'm at work.
To suspecting that a large percentage of people out there in the larger world aren't helpful, charitable (like your fostering story - how people should be), or even very sane.
Yes, my veiw of humanity has _both_ darkened, and lightened at the same time. I know that it doesn't stack logically.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> We'll also have the Watch Gecko exclusive editions, though I suspect those will be at least a few weeks behind the others.
> 
> View attachment 15873310


That looks sweet. Really excited to see how this white dial version looks in the metal. How many will be available as part of the Watch Gecko exclusive?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Hey, long shot, but did anyone pick up a Catalina bezel insert they ended up not using? Would buy or trade...


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Great to see the orange DevilRay back and as a vintage Zenith fan I'm always going to like the turquoise. The tapered rubber straps look great too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChronoB said:


> That looks sweet. Really excited to see how this white dial version looks in the metal. How many will be available as part of the Watch Gecko exclusive?


We'll be assembling 25 of each, with the parts needed to make another 25 of each at some point in the future.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Hey, long shot, but did anyone pick up a Catalina bezel insert they ended up not using? Would buy or trade...


If it helps, we just got a bunch in with the Azores. We should have them up on the site before the end of the month.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Sweet, thanks!


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

curious...

Is the Scorpene seconds hand supposed to be lumed? Mine isn't and I can't tell from the official pics; the uvalaw shot doesn't _really _look like it is either but the staged pic definitely looks lumed.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> curious...
> 
> Is the Scorpene seconds hand supposed to be lumed? Mine isn't and I can't tell from the official pics; the uvalaw shot doesn't _really _look like it is either but the staged pic definitely looks lumed.


It is lumed. But there's not a lot of surface area there, so it's not as bright.

Are you 100% positive it isn't lumed, at all?

Contact us via email to customer support or the site's contact form if you want to send us a pic.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> curious...
> 
> Is the Scorpene seconds hand supposed to be lumed? Mine isn't and I can't tell from the official pics; the uvalaw shot doesn't _really _look like it is either but the staged pic definitely looks lumed.


This is my Scorpène.

The lume on the seconds hand ain't much to shout about. It's a lot easier to make out in this pic than it is looking at it in hand, with the naked eye.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

It's there... barely.


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> This is my Scorpène.
> 
> The lume on the seconds hand ain't much to shout about. It's a lot easier to make out in this pic than it is looking at it in hand, with the naked eye.


Yeah if I saw that without context, I'd say it's definitely lumed. Here's mine. I still can't tell if there's just a bit of lume on the hand, or the lume from the rest of the dial is so bright, the all-white second hand is merely reflecting THAT light. Ah well. Still a beautiful watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Yeah if I saw that without context, I'd say it's definitely lumed. Here's mine. I still can't tell if there's just a bit of lume on the hand, or the lume from the rest of the dial is so bright, the all-white second hand is merely reflecting THAT light. Ah well. Still a beautiful watch.
> View attachment 15874747


Lume brightness is a function of how much is there, and of how much light it's absorbed. I hit mine with a UV torch before I took that photo. Here's what it looks like after holding it up to my ceiling light for 2 seconds...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lemme try this again.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As you can see, there's a big difference between those two shots. Same watch, just different levels of brightness, based on when the pic was taken.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> The only update I have...
> 
> View attachment 15821150
> 
> ...


I'm officially thrilled. The new case with the new bezel is my cup of tea.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> Has anyone had any luck getting the Steinhart Ocean39 20mm-16mm tapered bracelet to fit the NTH case?


I'd like to know this too, as I have a spare one in a box.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> I'd like to know this too, as I have a spare one in a box.


That's exactly why I'm trying to find out. My O39 explorer dial came with the oyster and the jubilee. So far I can't get it to fit. Would take some filing down of the end link I think. I love a sharp taper oyster though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Giggity.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Giggity.
> View attachment 15875795
> 
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Stop f*cking with my emotions. Send 'em to WG already so I can spend my money.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

Super impressed by intowatch, bought this on Saturday and it's already here. Also happy with all the extras they sent with it including a perfect fit bracelet screw driver


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Giggity.
> 
> View attachment 15875795
> 
> ...


That dial is Friggin amazing!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> Super impressed by intowatch, bought this on Saturday and it's already here. Also happy with all the extras they sent with it including a perfect fit bracelet screw driver
> View attachment 15876104


I really appreciate that feedback on them. It's unusual for anyone outside Korea to buy from their store, and when it happens, it's usually not a native English speaker who bothers to report anything.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> That dial is Friggin amazing!


I know, right?

It's even better in person. Could not be happier with how they turned out.


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> I really appreciate that feedback on them. It's unusual for anyone outside Korea to buy from their store, and when it happens, it's usually not a native English speaker who bothers to report anything.


I was hesitant but I've been waiting for a DevilRay for so long that I finally just had to scratch the itch. I had to buy it via the email you provided because my laptop wouldn't translate the website correctly, but Jun responded within minutes of my first email to him and I had the entire transaction done within an hour and shipped within two.

Picture is the watch with all the extras it came with


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> I was hesitant but I've been waiting for a DevilRay for so long that I finally just had to scratch the itch. I had to buy it via the email you provided because my laptop wouldn't translate the website correctly, but Jun responded within minutes of my first email to him and I had the entire transaction done within an hour and shipped within two.


You thought I was bull$hltting when I said "the man seems to never be asleep," didn't you?


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## seatega (Aug 21, 2020)

I absolutely did. Also thank you for convincing me to go get a white/silver dial version instead of waiting for the new releases. Everything about this one is perfectly executed.



docvail said:


> You thought I was bull$hltting when I said "the man seems to never be asleep," didn't you?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seatega said:


> I absolutely did. Also thank you for convincing me to go get a white/silver dial version instead of waiting for the new releases. Everything about this one is perfectly executed.


I may bull$hlt about a lot of things, but never about business.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of perfectly executed, and the DevilRay...

No lie, when my vendor explained to me how we'd make the DR's bezel, with the inner-ring part of the underlying part, and the black ring like a typical insert, I was a little nervous. I couldn't help but think we were doubling the chances of a mis-aligned bezel.

It seems like the opposite was true, and I didn't need to worry. I think having two sets of numbers helps the assembly team to make sure the inserts are pretty-much spot-on when installing them. And I'm just guessing that the machined numbers can't be mis-aligned, since they're machined into the part. The end result is that the DR's have generated the fewest complaints about mis-aligned bezels.

We did have one guy who tried to say the depth gauge was mis-aligned. That kind of threw me for a loop. I looked at his pics, and didn't see what he was talking about, at all. I was like, "Bro, it's part of the dial. It CAN'T be mis-aligned with other parts of the dial. It's physically impossible."

Not really sure if he understood that or not, but I think it was the end of the convo.


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## admit-to-im (Feb 1, 2021)

seatega said:


> I absolutely did. Also thank you for convincing me to go get a white/silver dial version instead of waiting for the new releases. Everything about this one is perfectly executed.


You are tempting me to also get a Silver dial Devilray. I think I'm going to wait for the Fall (I need a date!). Looks so good.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Giggity.
> 
> View attachment 15875795
> 
> ...


who is this man and why do you have such strange powers of making me part with my money?

seriously though, this is gorgeous, but with the v2 subs on the way, I'll have to make a decision between one of these or one of those. I'm more excited about the v2 right now, but this dial is something else entirely. Amazing job.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

seatega said:


> I was hesitant but I've been waiting for a DevilRay for so long that I finally just had to scratch the itch. I had to buy it via the email you provided because my laptop wouldn't translate the website correctly, but Jun responded within minutes of my first email to him and I had the entire transaction done within an hour and shipped within two.
> 
> Picture is the watch with all the extras it came with
> View attachment 15876305


Gorgeous, that silver dial is amazing. Cool watch, wear in health ?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Humpday...
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> Humpday...
> View attachment 15877587
> View attachment 15877589
> 
> ...


I want this!


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I was going through some pics yesterday and came across a couple of the Nacken. I don't think I've posted these up before.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Booyah.
















This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## ocoee (Oct 4, 2018)

Most comfortable rubber strap I've ever worn, thanks Doc!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Stroopwednesday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ocoee said:


> Most comfortable rubber strap I've ever worn, thanks Doc!
> 
> View attachment 15878378
> 
> ...


Awesome.

Scale of 1 (installs itself) to 10 (mofo ain't going on without major modification), how hard was it to mount?


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## ocoee (Oct 4, 2018)

Sorry to say about a (pita) level 8 on both the 20mm and 22mm straps. I did get them on with the included spring bars but as often as I change straps, I decided I needed to find something better. Switching to curved spring bars got the difficulty down to say level 3, fit as tightly against the case as the straight bars, and seem quite secure.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ocoee said:


> Sorry to say about a (pita) level 8 on both the 20mm and 22mm straps. I did get them on with the included spring bars but as often as I change straps, I decided I needed to find something better. Switching to curved spring bars got the difficulty down to say level 3, fit as tightly against the case as the straight bars, and seem quite secure.
> 
> View attachment 15878740


That's fair. Thanks for the feedback.

Dan couldn't get them on at all, in 20 minutes of trying. It took me 5 or 10, and I had to use the spring bar tool like a crow bar. Thankfully the openings in the back of the strap are as big as they are.

Which watch did you mount the 22mm strap to? It should have been a breeze on the 2K1's. On the DevilRay, again, it took a little longer.


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## ocoee (Oct 4, 2018)

Glad to help. The Viton material by the way is fantastic. I didn't know they made straps out of it, just gaskets and o-rings. It's very light, flexible, and soft but strong. The locked strap keeper closest to the buckle is a cool feature also.

I mounted the 22mm strap to the turquoise v1 DevilRay I posted a few pages back. I did get it on with the supplied straight bars but with great difficulty. I tried again later with curved bars and had a much easier time with it.


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

ocoee said:


> Sorry to say about a (pita) level 8 on both the 20mm and 22mm straps. I did get them on with the included spring bars but as often as I change straps, I decided I needed to find something better. Switching to curved spring bars got the difficulty down to say level 3, fit as tightly against the case as the straight bars, and seem quite secure.


what he said


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15879509


I've never really been drawn to black watches. Though I did love my murdered out Spinnaker Hull Tactical while I had it.
But I've got to say, that's freaking awesome.

I think the way the _black case matches the black edge of the graduated dial is a really cool effect_. Combined with the whole look of black, dark red, yellow, and contrasting white of the indices. Very cool 👍


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I've never really been drawn to black watches. Though I did love my murdered out Spinnaker Hull Tactical while I had it.
> But I've got to say, that's freaking awesome.
> 
> I think the way the _black case matches the black edge of the graduated dial is a really cool effect_. Combined with the whole look of black, dark red, yellow, and contrasting white of the indices. Very cool 👍


Plus, it's one of only 5 pieces assembled.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Plus, it's one of only 5 pieces assembled.


It's got rarity cachet.
Unfortunately I'm massively into the red with regards watches currently. 
On top of the £2,500 I've just been told I'll need to pay the dentist to keep up his golf club membership 😉 .. That's if I want to save my remaining teeth - I grind in my sleep apparently. Then there's the stuff we all pay to keep the show on the road. It always comes all at once, and as usual it has done just that.... Just having a moan....

But I'm seriously wavering between one of the Nazario Cali's, or Scorpene Blacks. Devil Ray's, or one of the internal bezel Antilles/Azores.
But it's going to have be next year now, as I'm determined to refrain from buying anything unless it's a ridiculous steal until then. To be honest I try and buy lightly used anyway, which doesn't directly help you I'm afraid.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> It's got rarity cachet.
> Unfortunately I'm massively into the red with regards watches currently.
> On top of the £2,500 I've just been told I'll need to pay the dentist to keep up his golf club membership ? .. That's if I want to save my remaining teeth - I grind in my sleep apparently. Then there's the stuff we all pay to keep the show on the road. It always comes all at once, and as usual it has done just that.... Just having a moan....
> 
> ...


Directly? Indirectly? Does it matter?

When someone buys one of our watches used, it removes a watch from the used market - i.e, it decreases supply.

Assuming demand remains unchanged, decreased supply should support higher used market prices. Higher used market prices help support the brand's retail prices.

Higher used market prices make it harder for people to say that the brand's watches lose too much value on resale. Decreased supply and higher used market values make it harder for people to say they'll just pick up a used pieces for a steal, instead of buying one new.

The lower used market supply, and the higher used market prices, combine to make it easier for people to rationalize buying one new, since the used market prices aren't that big a discount to the new prices, and the supply isn't so seemingly endless.

When people who might otherwise buy a watch used end up buying one new, that decreases our supply of new inventory. It gets us to being sold out sooner. When people see that our watches sell out within a reasonable time, rather than being perpetually available, it makes it harder for them to say our prices are too high.

I'll take all the indirect help I can get. I ain't mad at anyone who buys one of our watches used, instead of new.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Directly? Indirectly? Does it matter?
> 
> When someone buys one of our watches used, it removes a watch from the used market - i.e, it decreases supply.
> 
> ...


As you noticed, that's why I said directly. I was pretty sure you'd have the whole thing far better thought through, than me anyway 🙂
Still, I've not actually bought anything yet....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> As you noticed, that's why I said directly. I was pretty sure you'd have the whole thing far better thought through, than me anyway 🙂
> Still, I've not actually bought anything yet....


Fair enough. I'll take my indirect help in the future, too, if that's when it comes along.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Amphicuda back on the wrist again. Love this watch.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> I've never really been drawn to black watches. Though I did love my murdered out Spinnaker Hull Tactical while I had it.
> But I've got to say, that's freaking awesome.
> 
> I think the way the _black case matches the black edge of the graduated dial is a really cool effect_. Combined with the whole look of black, dark red, yellow, and contrasting white of the indices. Very cool ?


Thanks! Is it my _favorite _watch? Unfortunately for Doc, no. But is it a much enjoyed watch? F*ck yeah. This thing is the tits.



docvail said:


> Plus, it's one of only 5 pieces assembled.


A fun thing to say to all those dudes with their 1 of 2000 "limited edition".

So never make more. Ever. Please.

Also. On a side note.... 
BOOM! No Date Absinthe was just paid for.

I've gotta chill for a bit. Between this and the Tourby I ordered last week, whooooweeee!


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Doc, 

Have you heard this complaint about your watches yet??? 

A bunch of us suggested Nth for a Pelagos replacement. 

"Love NTH designs. They are a bit on the thin side side for me though. Looking for something chunky say 14.5mm and up." 

I'll keep it anonymous!

Hahaha. My pop told me a long time ago, you'll never make everyone happy baby!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> Doc,
> 
> Have you heard this complaint about your watches yet???
> 
> ...


Your pop was an optimist.

Some days, I can't make anyone happy.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> the Tourby I ordered last week, whooooweeee!


I've been following you while you've been saving/procrastinating/thinking for one of these Tourby beauties. I've been totally willing you on to buy it...
Did you order the open work/semi skeleton 6498 version that you were thinking of ??
It's a stunningly beautiful layout, especially with the three gear train bridges laid out like that.
(I've got a pre-order Gruppo Gamma Peacemaker MkII coming sometime July/August. The 6497 inside is what pushed me to pull the trigger on it).

I'm going to need to see lots and lots of pictures when it arrives please ?

Picture of unitas 6498-2 , just because you can never have enough beauty in life..


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> I've been following you while you've been saving/procrastinating for one of these Tourby beauties. I've been totally willing you on to buy it...
> Did you order the open work/semi skeleton 6498 version that you were thinking of ??
> It's a stunningly beautiful layout, especially with the three gear train bridges laid out like that.
> (I've got a pre-order Gruppo Gamma Peacemaker MkII coming sometime July/August. The 6497 inside is what pushed me to pull the trigger on it).
> ...


Yessir I did! And I'm sure some will say "it's just a 6498. Shoulda saved for something in house", yada yada yada. But the heart gets what the heart wants in this instance. I viewed the extra €650 an acceptable cost for the upgrade. Higher beat rate, higher PR, and it's _so much_ more attractive than the other "lower" grades with all that heat blue work. Plus, being such a widely used movement, there's quite a few places around Dallas and its surrounding areas I can get it serviced without much worry.

This watch is a lot of firsts for me. First Trench watch, first (laquer)enamel dial, first German, first (non-Asian clone)hand cranker(I built myself a Flieger a while back), first watch over $3k....

So thanks for willing me on!

As for your Peacemaker, my money is on you loving it. My bronze Vanguard is a great watch, wore it a couple days ago actually. And the GG customer service is pretty top notch imho. When I ordered a pair of extra bronze buckles, I wanted a spare set of lug screw bars, but they weren't available to buy. I offered to pay, they sent me 2 pair for free without question. I know something like screw bars is minor, but hey, free!


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> And the GG customer service is pretty top notch imho. When I ordered a pair of extra bronze buckles, I wanted a spare set of lug screw bars, but they weren't available to buy. I offered to pay, they sent me 2 pair for free without question. I know something like screw bars is minor, but hey, free!


Great to hear Gruppo Gamma took care of you.

Speaking of screw bars, anyone here have any luck sourcing some Sub V2 bracelet link screws anywhere? 4 of mine were on so tight I ended up stripping them when resizing even though I was using a Horotec 1.2... NTH doesn't carry the screws by themselves, and my local watch parts place doesn't carry anything compatible.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Slant said:


> Great to hear Gruppo Gamma took care of you.
> 
> Speaking of screw bars, anyone here have any luck sourcing some Sub V2 bracelet link screws anywhere? 4 of mine were on so tight I ended up stripping them when resizing even though I was using a Horotec 1.2... NTH doesn't carry the screws by themselves, and my local watch parts place doesn't carry anything compatible.


Esslinger has 19.5mm x 1.2mm screws for a dollar a pop. Worth a shot.






Esslinger Watchmakers Tools and Watch Parts


Watchmakers parts and watch repair tools and supplies including watch straps, batteries, movements, and clasps




www.esslinger.com





Edit: now idea why, but it won't let me copy/paste the entire link.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> Esslinger has 19.5mm x 1.2mm screws for a dollar a pop. Worth a shot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you very much! I think I found them. Are you talking about these?

Watch Band Parts Threaded Link Band Screw Refill


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Slant said:


> Thank you very much! I think I found them. Are you talking about these?
> 
> Watch Band Parts Threaded Link Band Screw Refill


Yup, that's the ones I found. Esslinger is my first stop for pretty much any random small part or tool.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Yessir I did! And I'm sure some will say "it's just a 6498. Shoulda saved for something in house", yada yada yada. But the heart gets what the heart wants in this instance. I viewed the extra €650 an acceptable cost for the upgrade. Higher beat rate, higher PR, and it's _so much_ more attractive than the other "lower" grades with all that heat blue work. Plus, being such a widely used movement, there's quite a few places around Dallas and its surrounding areas I can get it serviced without much worry.
> 
> This watch is a lot of firsts for me. First Trench watch, first (laquer)enamel dial, first German, first (non-Asian clone)hand cranker(I built myself a Flieger a while back), first watch over $3k....
> 
> ...


In house movements are all right, but like you say, you can't beat the value of having an easy, cheaper, and universal movement to repair.

Enamel dials are gorgeous to look at. There's something very horological or traditional about about the look. I'm utterly green with envy.
What size did you order? Tourby do three widths I believe.

That's all good to hear about GG. I've wanted one since I first saw one. It's one of those companies that you just don't hear negative stories about.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> In house movements are all right, but like you say, you can't beat the value of having an easy, cheaper, and universal movement to repair.
> 
> Enamel dials are gorgeous to look at. There's something very horological or traditional about about the look. I'm utterly green with envy.
> What size did you order? Tourby do three widths I believe.
> ...


43mm. Damn the Dainty Wrist Brigade!


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> 43mm. Damn the Dainty Wrist Brigade!


Quite right. Certain watches suit certain sizes. That's the size I'd have gone for too.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Quite right. Certain watches suit certain sizes. That's the size I'd have gone for too.


On another note, your GG, which strap did you select? If they offer a DiStefano that you like, I cant recommend it enough. When I ordered my Vangaurd they had two options and I went with the DS in "Firenze Blue" and boy am I happy I did. It is _by far_ the most comfortable leather strap I've worn. Levels above the others.

Out of the box it was incredibly soft and pliable. Conformed to the wrist perfectly.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> On another note, your GG, which strap did you select? If they offer a DiStefano that you like, I cant recommend it enough. When I ordered my Vangaurd they had two options and I went with the DS in "Firenze Blue" and boy am I happy I did. It is _by far_ the most comfortable leather strap I've worn. Levels above the others.
> 
> Out of the box it was incredibly soft and pliable. Conformed to the wrist perfectly.


☕ Sorry, Doc... Hijacking your thread.

All it says is an Italian Leather Strap in burnt orange. Not sure about the colour to be honest.

This is the model I've pre-ordered, PG-00. Renders available only I'm afraid.















This is from the same pre-order series, but is the PG-02. Same case, sandwich dial, crown, etc. But with an automatic 2824; so without the blued hands and small seconds, instead of the Unitas.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Great to hear Gruppo Gamma took care of you.
> 
> Speaking of screw bars, anyone here have any luck sourcing some Sub V2 bracelet link screws anywhere? 4 of mine were on so tight I ended up stripping them when resizing even though I was using a Horotec 1.2... NTH doesn't carry the screws by themselves, and my local watch parts place doesn't carry anything compatible.


Sorry I'm just seeing this now.

We sell spare links, which come with screws, if that helps.









Spare links (set of 2) for 20mm & 22mm Oyster Bracelet for NTH Subs, v.2 and 2K1


One pair (2 pieces) of spare links for the NTH v.2 oyster bracelet for the NTH Subs or 2K1's. Please note this item is not returnable.




nthwatches.com





I'd be cautious using aftermarket screws. First, the bracelet tapers from 20mm to 18mm. That taper happens within the first 2-3 permanent links by the case. So I'd think Esslinger's 19.5mm screws would be too long, and the 17mm ones would be too short.

Second, even if they're the correct diameter, and length, are the threads going to match up, both in location, and thread pattern? That would be a very lucky break.

If the thread pattern is close enough to thread a screw in, but not an exact match, you might end up getting one of those screws stuck.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Sorry I'm just seeing this now.
> 
> We sell spare links, which come with screws, if that helps.
> 
> ...


Just looked at the Sub's screw again today after months of not touching it. You're right Doc, those from Esslinger are not going to work.

Esslinger's:










The ones on the Subs have the thread midway:










Unless I try the 1.2 x 15.5 (which is the length from the screwdriver side to just where the thread ends), but there will be a hole left on the thread side of the link as the pin will be too short. And like Doc said, the thread might get jammed in the link...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

See the screwdriver on the far right in this pic?










So...when we first debuted the new bracelet for the November 2018 release, there were a lot of problems getting screws out. When we complained about it to our vendor, we found that the bracelet supplier's QC team was using the driver on the right to check the screws, whereas we and all our customers were using drivers like the two on the left.

Apparently, the larger tool was able to generate more torque, enough to overcome any debris caught in the screw threads, or a screw that wasn't perfectly formed. Since then, they've been using smaller screw drivers in QC, like what our customers would typically use, and we haven't had any problems.

Before giving up on your screws, do you know when your watch was made? Was it part of that November 2018 release? If you're not sure, contact us through customer support, and we'll see if we can figure it out.

We sent out re-made links to all our retailers, and asked them to replace the 3 links on either side of the clasp, but I know we didn't achieve 100% compliance. We'll do what we can to help.

If nothing else, you might try spraying some silicone lubricant into the threaded side of the link, and trying to get the screw out using a larger driver. I've also found that turning a stuck screw one way will often get it unstuck going the other way.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Decided a little change was due. BOR for the Thresher.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Decided a little change was due. BOR for the Thresher.
> 
> View attachment 15881870


Nice! Is that the Watch Gecko BOR? The fit of those end-links looks pretty good.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Nice! Is that the Watch Gecko BOR? The fit of those end-links looks pretty good.


Yes. It's the Geckota 22mm butterfly clasp bracelet. Very, very good for the price. I could tweak the end-links but I always make it worse.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Before giving up on your screws, do you know when your watch was made? Was it part of that November 2018 release? If you're not sure, contact us through customer support, and we'll see if we can figure it out.
> 
> We sent out re-made links to all our retailers, and asked them to replace the 3 links on either side of the clasp, but I know we didn't achieve 100% compliance. We'll do what we can to help.


Thanks Chris. Mine is from late 2020.

The screws did come out but the heads got mangled. Because of the stripped slots I did not tighten them back with much force so as not to mangle them even more to the point I can't take them out again. Just hoping they don't back out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Thanks Chris. Mine is from late 2020.
> 
> The screws did come out but the heads got mangled. Because of the stripped slots I did not tighten them back with much force so as not to mangle them even more to the point I can't take them out again. Just hoping they don't back out.


Put a dab of clear nail polish or thread locker on the heads. It may not hold them in as well as it would if you could get it onto the threads, but it certainly can't hurt.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Doc... Do I detect a bit of faux-tina on the new Azores dials? Either blue or green? I didn't think so from the mock ups, but some of the IRL pics I'm not sure


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Doc... Do I detect a bit of faux-tina on the new Azores dials? Either blue or green? I didn't think so from the mock ups, but some of the IRL pics I'm not sure


Faux-tina???










It's just C3 on the Azores.

Faux-tina doesn't live here anymore.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> Faux-tina doesn't live here anymore.


Good


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a mini-rant...

How do you all think straps are measured? If a strap length is listed as 120mm/80mm, is that 120mm the entire length of the long side, from end to end, or just from the spring bar to the last hole?

See, apparently I'm an idiot. Because I'm stupid enough to think that what really matters is whether or not the strap will actually fit your wrist, using the holes available, not what the total length would be. Who cares how long it is, in total, if the holes are so far from the tip that it's not long enough to fit, right?

Nope. Apparently I've been measuring straps the wrong way. I listed the tropics' straps as 100/80mm, because it's 100mm from the spring bar to the last hole in that strap.

I've read comments online saying that's a bit short, but when I looked at it compared to other tropic straps, which tend to be a bit longer than standard straps, it is shorter, so I never thought much about it, except whenever someone would go out of their way to tell me our tropic strap is too short for their big, burly wrists.

(And by the way, if your wrist is bigger than 8 7/8" around - 226mm - don't bother complaining that our tropic straps are too short. You know you should be shopping for extra long straps, Sasquatch. Be happy our bracelets fit.)

It never occurred to me that I might have measured wrong, nor did it ever occur to me to ask the supplier how long they were. Why would I ask, if I can just measure?

I just spent a good part of my day with a guy lambasting me because the tropic straps are too *long*, and we don't accept returns on straps.

He's insisting that the long side is actually 120mm. It is, if you measure all the way to the tip. He's saying he only bought it because he expected it to be shorter.

He sent me this pic:










Okay, so it's 4.75" end-to-end, which is 120.65mm. Fine. We'll say the strap is 120mm/80mm then.

Now explain to me how that's "too long", please.

First, standard strap sizing appears to be right around 200mm, so, that would make our straps standard size. Not long. Not short. Standard. Like, industry standard.

Secondly, it's a tropic strap. Compared to all other tropic straps, it's SHORTER.

And lastly, whereas most straps have 7 holes in them, the first (smallest size) being around 2 1/8" to 2.25" from the spring bar, our tropics' first hole is an inch from the case. How freaking small does your wrist have to be for our strap to be too LONG on you?

Okay, I get that the part sticking out from the buckle may be longer than you like, but...there are two floating keepers on that strap. Use them. And if your wrist is so small that standard size straps don't fit you, and you go out of your way to buy ours, thinking it's 20mm shorter...c'mon, that's 0.78 of an inch difference. Why are we fighting? Go find a shorter tropic strap. I'll wait.

I don't have any of our tropic straps in the office. So I sent him this pic, showing one of our 22mm natural rubber straps (top, blue), next to one of our 20mm fitted straps (middle, black) and the tropic strap sample I got from the same supplier, with the spring-bars lined up as close as I could get them.










The tape measure is lined up correctly, trust me. it's just curled up towards the camera, making it appear longer.

That freaking strap is at least 5 1/8" long. That's 130mm. I don't think anyone makes a tropic strap SHORTER than ours.

So, anyway, I'm now going through the straps I have here, measuring them all, and updating the lengths on the website, as needed. I'll be using the entire strap length, and dreading the emails I'll be getting from guys who want to know the exact length, just counting the holes, not the useless span of rubber between the holes and the tip.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

How are you supposed to measure straps? I always seem to order ones that are on the last hole or two

Also, who won the "best mod that looks OE" pic contest? I am WAY to lazy to go back and search


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> How are you supposed to measure straps? I always seem to order ones that are on the last hole or two
> 
> Also, who won the "best mod that looks OE" pic contest? I am WAY to lazy to go back and search


Those contests were tongue-in-cheek. All victories were purely symbolic.

Re, straps, and how to measure 'em...

I realized as I was walking my dog just now I left out some critical context.

Most straps I've bought, the length was provided to me, by the supplier's website or catalog. It wasn't that way with the tropic straps. Their length wasn't mentioned in the catalog. I didn't realize it until I actually received the straps, and needed to create a product listing on the website. Since I already had the straps in my office, I just measured them, rather than contacting the supplier to ask for their length.

In the midst of today's back-and-forth with Mr. strap-too-long, I called John Keil to ask him. He said he thought strap measurements were total length, not just to the last hole. I wasn't yet convinced, until I realized that the other straps I had in my office all seemed to be the same length as our tropic straps. I never bothered to compare them until today.

So, it seems like straps' listed lengths are indeed the full length, NOT just to the last hole. I personally think that's stupid, because it's the holes that matter, not the total length, but no one elected me king of the world (yet).

Good news, I only needed to change the length of the tropics strap on our website. All the other straps were correct, because their suppliers provided me with that length, so I never bothered to measure them before today.

Bad news, I guess that guy will remain pissed at me over that 20mm difference in strap length, though I still say he should be happy our straps are shorter than all the other tropic straps out there.

At least a major YouTuber isn't telling people I ripped him off.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I always assumed they were measured full length and regardless of hole location. I'm of the opinion that 120/80mm is "standard" length for straps. The strap-powerhouse Hirsch calls that length Long. The other sizes are Medium and Extra Long, incidentally. 100/80mm is just a weird size anyway. I'm very sensitive to strap length because they're usually too short. With a flat and longer watch like the Thresher, for example, a 120/80mm is probably okay. Tell that guy I'll buy the used strap for treefiddy.

Also, the tropic straps I've purchased have always been longer than I anticipated even though I knew their length going in. It's always worked out for me since I have large wrists.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I am the king of the world, and when everyone has finally realised that I shall declare world peace.
Until then.... I've always assumed straps of any and all kinds were measured from the total length of the material (or rubber/alloy).

It does make logical sense to measure to the last hole. But I've found that every strap I've bought, the whole material length has matched the length description on the website, and not the last hole length.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> At least a major YouTuber isn't telling people I ripped him off.


Man that thread is like a train wreck. I don't wanna look.... But I can't help it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Man that thread is like a train wreck. I don't wanna look.... But I can't help it.


It's not just that thread. I've seen posts about it in two different groups on Facebook.

People love a good internet cat-fight. Like Ric "Hic" Capucho used to say, "handbags at high noon."

One of my platoon sergeants once told me, "a dog that brings you a bone will take a bone when he leaves." We were talking about how some folks seem to delight in gossip, especially if it's bad news for someone else, but his main point was that you can't tell those people anything, because if they're telling you about someone else's business, guaranteed they're telling someone else about yours.

Kind of makes you think about the type of person who goes out of their way to make sure we all know about someone else's cat-fight, huh?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

catsteeth said:


> I am the king of the world, and when everyone has finally realised that I shall declare world peace.
> Until then.... I've always assumed straps of any and all kinds were measured from the total length of the material (or rubber/alloy).
> 
> It does make logical sense to measure to the last hole. But I've found that every strap I've bought, the whole material length has matched the length description on the website, and not the last hole length.


As Catsteeth says... I've also always assumed quoted length refers to the total length. I get that depending on where and how many holes are punched will affect the "wear" of the strap, however unless a standard like "COSC" is applied, every manufacturer does their own thing.

Question Doc... how did you determine the hole spacings, how many holes and where to start and finish the holes. I'm guessing it's all by feel and an educated guess.

I ask because straps of the same length I have found wear differently depending on hole spacing and where the hole sequence starts. Some straps fit like a glove and others I seem always to be the size in between holes. One hole is too tight, the next too loose. I really don't like punching a new one in.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of that cat-fight, and the mention of it on Facebook...

I couldn't help but spot a comment someone made in response to one of those FB posts about it, "one reason why I don't waste my time with micros."

This was in a group focused on MICROBRANDS.

And I recognized the guy's name. He's been a customer.

So...I couldn't help myself. I mean, yeah, I could have, but no, I couldn't. I pointed out that he was commenting on a post in a group about microbrands. The implied question being, "why the f**k are you here?" The less implied question being, "weren't you just sitting by my fire a month ago?"

Said it before, I'll say it again - any time a microbrand owner jaywalks, every internet cop who hears about it online wants to write us all a ticket. I hope I can be forgiven for wanting to just walk around clonking their heads together like Moe used to do to Larry and Shemp.

The really sad irony here - this guy is basically a microbrand owner, but in a different industry. Call me gangsta if you must, but I'm a big believer in being down for your set. If you don't stick with your crew, they won't stick by you. I don't get a small biz owner saying, "meh, small biz ain't worth my time."

In response to someone else, he said he used to be all about micros, but recently sold off all his microbrand watches, with no interest in buying more, but that doesn't mean he can't hang around the group to see what's going on.

It makes me wonder - would my wife mind if I downloaded a couple dating apps to my phone? Just because I stopped dating doesn't mean I can't keep an eye on what all the single ladies are up to, am I right?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> As Catsteeth says... I've also always assumed quoted length refers to the total length. I get that depending on where and how many holes are punched will affect the "wear" of the strap, however unless a standard like "COSC" is applied, every manufacturer does their own thing.
> 
> Question Doc... how did you determine the hole spacings, how many holes and where to start and finish the holes. I'm guessing it's all by feel and an educated guess.
> 
> ...


If I understand your question, you're assuming I dictated the hole placement on the straps.

I didn't. The strap suppliers did.

If you've kept up with this thread the last few months, it should be comically obvious straps aren't my main business. I have almost no idea at all what I'm doing. It never even occurred to me to tell a strap supplier, "nah, your holes are all wrong. Let me tell you where to put them..."

I have however also noticed that even "standard" size straps don't all have the holes in the same places, which is:

A - stupid.

B - why I figured the length must be measured to the last hole, since that would actually provide more useful information than the total length, which is almost useless information.

Again, a majority of the planet hasn't seen fit (yet) to make me supreme leader. But, if (when) it happens, you can bet your last shekel one of my first executive orders will be to dictate that all "standard" straps will be "standardized' with holes in the same "standard" locations, according to "the standard".

No more screwing around here, people. I take this $hlt very seriously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wife: "You're still working? What the hell are you doing down there?"

Me: "Disrupting the standard size strap industry!"

Wife: "Dis-whating the what size what industry?"

Me: "They're all standard sizes. But it's all about the hole placement! We can literally put 'em wherever we want, and it's still a standard size strap!!!"


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

One of the reasons I'm a closet strap hater is that the buckle side is never long enough. I can't stand when the buckle isn't centered on the bottom of my wrist. And I'm too cheap to buy custom straps. Maybe someday I will, because I like the concept that if the buckle side is the perfect length you want, then the other side only needs 3 holes.

One of the big strap companies, who's products I generally like, gives you 2 different lengths of the non- buckle side with their silicone straps. Thats nice in theory. But it should be the other side that they make in two lengths


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## guspech750 (Dec 15, 2013)

captainmorbid said:


> Helpful "how to" hint for solving loud rotor sounds:
> 
> 1: fully wind movement
> 2: unscrew crown fully(if equipped)
> ...












Sent from my toilet using Kakatalk. Flushed with only a single wipe.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

92gli said:


> One of the reasons I'm a closet strap hater is that the buckle side is never long enough. I can't stand when the buckle isn't centered on the bottom of my wrist. And I'm too cheap to buy custom straps. Maybe someday I will, because I like the concept that if the buckle side is the perfect length you want, then the other side only needs 3 holes.
> 
> One of the big strap companies, who's products I generally like, gives you 2 different lengths of the non- buckle side with their silicone straps. Thats nice in theory. But it should be the other side that they make in two lengths


Soooo. Is you wrist stupid small? Or obnoxiously large?
I'm pretty much on the same page as you with buckle placement. If it's not within a couple mm of dead center on the bottom of my wrist, it makes my eye twitch. But with a 7 1/2" - 7 5/8" wrist, it seems to be a rare issue that a buckle doesn't sit where I want. Having the "wrong" hole placement is a bigger issue. But everyone hates having the proper fit in between two holes.

As for customs.... This isn't a personal dig by any means. But just _how _cheap are you? Patrik from Clover Straps will make pretty much anything you want, if he physically can, out of pretty much any strap material outside of rubber or exotic leather. I've got four from him and I've never paid more than $65 shipped. One leather(Ball), one cordura for an OEM deployant(NTH), one standard cordura(Lüm-Tec) and one leather backed cordura(Gruppo Gamma). Every one of those has a different lug width, a different overall length, a different hole placement and completely different overall aesthetics.

If you can give him accurate measurements, he can make your "perfect" strap. He's a great source for those looking to give the custom route a shot without breaking the bank.

Edit: if you'd like some photos of what he's made for me, just ask!


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

My wrist is a very average 7". It's not the "paying" $65 or whatever for a strap that I'm adverse to, it's the fear of not liking it. I don't even really like all the $25 straps I have! 😂


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I ordered a Sm StrapsCo suede strap by accident, and then a Lg to try it out: Perfect fit for me with the Lg 12 piece, including the buckle, and the Sm 6 piece with the holes. Yes, probably a custom Clover strap would have been cheaper...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

92gli said:


> My wrist is a very average 7". It's not the "paying" $65 or whatever for a strap that I'm adverse to, it's the fear of not liking it. I don't even really like all the $25 straps I have! 😂


Lol, fair enough!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*RE - Patrik from Clover...*

Never had one of his straps, but I know a lot of guys who have. For a few years, it seemed like every guy who bought a Lew & Huey was getting Patrik to make a custom strap for it. I've heard nothing but good things about him, his straps, his service, etc.

*RE - Strap sizes and strap fit vs wrist size...*

I get that we live in an imperfect world. I get it. But some imperfections bother me more than others. This strap issue is one of them.

If a strap is "standard size", I think it's reasonable to say that strap ought to have holes in the exact same positions as every other "standard size" strap out there. Otherwise, no one knows how a "standard size" strap is going to fit them.

But of course we know the strap makers are all over the goddam map with their hole placements, making "standard" a misnomer when used to describe these straps. They're not standardized, and thus, none of them can accurately be described as "standard". I don't give a goddam what their length is.

My absurd illustration above should demonstrate why the total length is meaningless if the hole placements aren't standardized.

Likewise, if the "standard size" is supposed to properly fit the average-size adult male wrist, and the average is 7" (or whatever), then the strap should should be designed in such a way that it properly fits a wrist that's 7", give or take.

That means the length of each side, the size of the buckle, and the hole placement should all be conducive to getting a comfortable fit, including buckle placement, for wrists that are 7", plus or minus some "standard" range, like 6" to 8".

Get your $hlt together, strap makers.

*RE - getting a perfect fit from a custom strap, and my final word on the stupidity of looking at total length vs hole placement...*

I forget who it was, but a reviewer I lent a watch to wanted to make me a custom cork single-pass strap, as a way of thanking me. He asked me what my wrist size was. I told him 7". He included the strap when he sent the watch back to me, and it didn't fit, because it was barely 7" long.


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> *RE - Patrik from Clover...*
> 
> Never had one of his straps, but I know a lot of guys who have. For a few years, it seemed like every guy who bought a Lew & Huey was getting Patrik to make a custom strap for it. I've heard nothing but good things about him, his straps, his service, etc.
> 
> ...


I honestly don't get the hole placement thing. Even if you would standardize it, different watches have different L2L, so it'll still wear different on different watches.

Standardized exact hole placement is a non issue. For people with wrist sizes that are generally exactly on the first or last hole, those inconsistencies might mean the difference between being able to wear it or not. But so does a non standardized L2L - also, along the same lines, should you maybe specify springbar to springbar length? ?

Holes on straps should be spaced closer together. That would deal better with these issues, than standardizing the exact position of the holes.

Also I'm pretty consistently on the second to last hole on any watch strap. So it seems to be at least somewhat standardized. Sometimes I might wish half a hole more or less - but again, is that due to the strap or the springbar to springbar lenght?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> I honestly don't get the hole placement thing. Even if you would standardize it, different watches have different L2L, so it'll still wear different on different watches.
> 
> Standardized exact hole placement is a non issue. For people with wrist sizes that are generally exactly on the first or last hole, those inconsistencies might mean the difference between being able to wear it or not. But so does a non standardized L2L - also, along the same lines, should you maybe specify springbar to springbar length? 🤷
> 
> ...


You may be onto something here. It seems I too am almost always using the same hole in any strap, regardless of varying lug-to-lug lengths of the watches those straps are attached to. Now that you've made me notice it, I'll have to pay closer attention, to see if I can spot some pattern which explains why.

Maybe more holes in the strap, spaced more tightly together, would solve all this. Seems like a step in the right direction, at least as far as solving the "I'm between two holes" problem so many peeps seem to have.

But, I still think the hole placement ought to be standardized, if we're going to refer to any strap as "standard size". Here's why...

Even if the lug length varies with the watch, it's still useful to have a standardized hole placement. No matter what the lug length is, everyone would be able to account for the lug length when buying a strap, but only IF the hole placements were standardized.

For example - if I know that on a "standard" size strap, the middle hole is 5" from the buckle, if you put the two parts of the strap end-to-end, and that the first hole is 4", and the last hole is 6", then all I need to do is add the lug-to-lug dimension. If that dimension is 2", then I'll know that when that strap is mounted to that watch, it'll fit wrists from 6" to 8".

In that scenario, I'll have a pretty good idea not just of whether or not the strap will fit, but how it should fit. I'll even know which hole I'll likely be using. I'll know if I've got room on that strap to lose or gain weight.

Even if the lug holes are inboard of the tips of the lugs, by a little bit, it's a VERY little bit. I think it's usually 1mm, so if you really want to get exact, you can back 2mm out of your lug-to-lug dimension, when figuring out the length of that strap once it's mounted to the watch.

Before someone points out that the strap length is effectively shorter, because the spring bar holes are inboard of the strap ends, fine, we can make all the strap manufacturers give us a dimension that is the distance between the center-point of the spring bar hole and the middle hole, or the last hole, or whatever - so long as it's STANDARDIZED.

So long as the placement and spacing of those holes varies from strap to strap, rather than being standardized across all straps, it's a complete crap-shoot every time someone buys a strap, even if we know the lug-to-lug of our watch, and try to account for it.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Odin TCBin...
And yes, strap holes should be closer together. But everyone selling straps is worried about warranty claims.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Or maybe.....just sell a holeless strap Doc.. let the client punch them in where appropriate  you could even onsell a custom engraved Nth strap hole punch... .... the Empire grows!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> It's not just that thread. I've seen posts about it in two different groups on Facebook.
> 
> People love a good internet cat-fight. Like Ric "Hic" Capucho used to say, "handbags at high noon."
> 
> ...


I know Ric is still around....but his posts are still missed


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

Wimads said:


> Holes on straps should be spaced closer together. That would deal better with these issues, than standardizing the exact position of the holes.
> 
> The only thing I'd worry about with putting them closer together is the amount of material left between the holes to support the pulling of the buckle. Too little meat in there and it might tear, especially on a thinner strap. But the ability to do something similar to micro adjustments on a soft leather strap would be REALLY nice!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I know Ric is still round....but his posts are still missed


Callin' me fat?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ric Capucho said:


> Callin' me fat?


No....but if I was, I would be speaking as a well rounded expert in the subject!


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

docvail said:


> You may be onto something here. It seems I too am almost always using the same hole in any strap, regardless of varying lug-to-lug lengths of the watches those straps are attached to. Now that you've made me notice it, I'll have to pay closer attention, to see if I can spot some pattern which explains why.
> 
> Maybe more holes in the strap, spaced more tightly together, would solve all this. Seems like a step in the right direction, at least as far as solving the "I'm between two holes" problem so many peeps seem to have.
> 
> ...


Trying to wrap it around my head but is there such a thing as adjustable buckles for watch straps? A metal buckle with 2 points of micro adjustments.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Saswatch said:


> Trying to wrap it around my head but is there such a thing as adjustable buckles for watch straps? A metal buckle with 2 points of micro adjustments.


You mean like an adjustable divers clasp?


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> You mean like an adjustable divers clasp?


Not quite. I'm likely missing a few brain cells here but with 2 adjustment points on the metal buckle if you feel like you're in between holes on the straps.


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## bes-b2 (Jan 16, 2009)

I’m going to derail this just a bit...have I missed the boat on black dial date Odin models?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> You mean like an adjustable divers clasp?


Formex makes an adjustable deployant clasp that's as close as I've seen as an "adjustable " buckle other than the normal slide locks.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Saswatch said:


> Not quite. I'm likely missing a few brain cells here but with 2 adjustment points on the metal buckle if you feel like you're in between holes on the straps.
> 
> View attachment 15886513


Or have two spring bar holes on the case. One drilled and one not, like my Ollech and Wajs.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Saswatch said:


> Not quite. I'm likely missing a few brain cells here but with 2 adjustment points on the metal buckle if you feel like you're in between holes on the straps.
> 
> View attachment 15886513


Pin wouldn't sit properly on the buckle anymore when doing that. I suppose you could make it work if you put the strap on a separate spring bar from the buckle pin.

Cheapest nato straps does have some adjustable straps - similar to perlon straps. But that wouldn't work so well for leather.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> Former makes an adjustable deployant clasp that's as close as I've seen as an "adjustable " buckle other than the normal slide locks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I've got one of the unbranded versions of the Formex deployant that LIW sells. It's pretty nice actually. Only complaint is that's it's a wee bit thick.

Plus I think they only make it in 20mm.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

As to adjustable straps and clasps (and a plug for Patrik of Clover straps), I had Patrik make me leather straps that fit my bracelet buckles. Life changing:









.


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> As to adjustable straps and clasps (and a plug for Patrik of Clover straps), I had Patrik make me leather straps that fit my bracelet buckles. Life changing:
> 
> View attachment 15886829
> 
> .


That's really cool! Do you have a pic of it opened up? I'm curious to see how it attaches inside.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

shrewboy said:


> That's really cool! Do you have a pic of it opened up? I'm curious to see how it attaches inside.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can make one, but I'm away from the watch at the moment. Stand by for incoming...

EDIT: and in the meantime, I measured the pieces of a typical rubber strap (Bonetto Cinturini in this case), used the same clasp, and had Patrik duplicate the pieces in leather. He will make EXACTLY what you ask for, so measure carefully. Thickness, length, width, texture, color, etc...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Polar Mondays









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shrewboy said:


> The only thing I'd worry about with putting them closer together is the amount of material left between the holes to support the pulling of the buckle. Too little meat in there and it might tear, especially on a thinner strap. But the ability to do something similar to micro adjustments on a soft leather strap would be REALLY nice!





Saswatch said:


> Trying to wrap it around my head but is there such a thing as adjustable buckles for watch straps? A metal buckle with 2 points of micro adjustments.


There are rubber straps sold with folding diver's clasps. You have to cut the strap to get your custom fit. I assume the clasps also have micro-adjustments, but I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if there are any sold with expansion clasps.

As the seller, I don't like the idea, at all. I don't like thinking about a customer not knowing what they're doing when modifying the product we sold them. I feel like we'd have to provide instructions, and hope they're followed.

It's a pain to do, and kind of a crap shoot. My experience has been that no matter what we do, or where / how we communicate, we still get people who don't read the communications, and end up complaining when the problems follow.

I also just don't like them, generally. If your wrist swells or shrinks, you can use a different hole on your regular style strap. With a custom-cut strap, you can't. You better hope it has a clasp that's expandable, or has micro-adjustments, and that you didn't cut the strap too short when you first got it.

I think what people like about the isofrane style straps is that they have more holes, which are more tightly spaced together, so fewer people get stuck between holes. I've looked at that style, but I don't like that they don't appear to taper at all.

I actually found a supplier selling this strap, which does taper, but they only made them in silicone, and they don't have nearly as many holes compared to the isofrane.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bes-b2 said:


> I'm going to derail this just a bit...have I missed the boat on black dial date Odin models?


Check the used market. They're sold out, new, since sometime last year.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> Not quite. I'm likely missing a few brain cells here but with 2 adjustment points on the metal buckle if you feel like you're in between holes on the straps.
> 
> View attachment 15886513


I think the problem there would be dealing with the non-adjustable length of the tang (which is what I think the part in the middle, that goes through the hole, is called).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Or have two spring bar holes on the case. One drilled and one not, like my Ollech and Wajs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I've seen that done. Usually it's to get the "correct" placement for a strap, or a bracelet, when the ideal point of connection would be different depending on which one you're using.

The challenge can be mounting a strap or bracelet, without having the spring bar constantly going into whichever hole it encounters first, rather than the hole you want it to.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I've got one of the unbranded versions of the Formex deployant that LIW sells. It's pretty nice actually. Only complaint is that's it's a wee bit thick.
> 
> Plus I think they only make it in 20mm.


This is the most common complaint I read about clasps - too thick. And the more you try to make the clasp do, the thicker it tends to get.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

kpjimmy said:


> Polar Mondays
> View attachment 15886978
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Looks awesome with that bezel. Wish they came that way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> As to adjustable straps and clasps (and a plug for Patrik of Clover straps), I had Patrik make me leather straps that fit my bracelet buckles. Life changing:
> 
> View attachment 15886829
> 
> .


I'm going to echo @shrewboy and say that's very cool. I'd love to see some pictures of it opened up and side on too. So that I can get my head around how it works. 😊

I like leather butterfly clasp straps, but not deployant straps. Because the folding bar digs into my wrist on deployants. However I really like the idea so am always up for seeing new ideas.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom.


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> Boom.
> 
> View attachment 15887489
> View attachment 15887491


Very nice! Finally, a photo other than a stock photo. Can't wait for my blue dial to arrive.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Damn! now I go change my pants.....


----------



## wusnutt (Apr 30, 2018)

Was the NTH Nacken Renegade produced with only one dial or a couple different colors? I am sure it is just the lighting playing tricks, but some photos look like a black fade to blue while others appear black fade to grey.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

shrewboy said:


> That's really cool! Do you have a pic of it opened up? I'm curious to see how it attaches inside.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Regarding Patrik's leather straps:

It started with this watch. Alpina with a 23mm lug width. Couldn't find anything to fit (that I liked). I prefer bracelets and rubber straps with clasps. So, I had him make leather pieces to REPLACE the rubber bits.










Took a rubber strap like this and cut it to fit:










Sent the measurements to Patrik, including the thickness of the leather, to make sure it was an exact fit. He has hundreds of leather choices, so you get to pick through his files to find one. These photos are of another one, just like the one above, but brown, showing how they simply replace the rubber:


















End result:


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> As to adjustable straps and clasps (and a plug for Patrik of Clover straps), I had Patrik make me leather straps that fit my bracelet buckles. Life changing:
> 
> View attachment 15886829
> 
> .





catsteeth said:


> I'm going to echo @shrewboy and say that's very cool. I'd love to see some pictures of it opened up and side on too. So that I can get my head around how it works. 😊
> 
> I like leather butterfly clasp straps, but not deployant straps. Because the folding bar digs into my wrist on deployants. However I really like the idea so am always up for seeing new ideas.


I had Patrik do the same, except instead of leather, it was rolled Cordura.

@catsteeth, its exactly like attaching the deployant clasp on your bracelet. But it ain't metal no mo'.

But like @dmjonez said, make sure your measurements are spot on, cuz that's what you'll get.

Edit: pic
The clasp is actually Doc's OEM 20mm clasp with the dive extension.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Boots said:


> Very nice! Finally, a photo other than a stock photo. Can't wait for my blue dial to arrive.


Have some more.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Damn! now I go change my pants.....


At the very least, you should make sure you're wearing loose-fitting pants before you look at pics of new arrivals...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wusnutt said:


> Was the NTH Nacken Renegade produced with only one dial or a couple different colors? I am sure it is just the lighting playing tricks, but some photos look like a black fade to blue while others appear black fade to grey.


Just that one dial color. It's the light playing tricks. The dial has a layer of clear-coat protection, which makes that one very difficult to photograph. It's light blue in the center, fading to dark blue, then black at the perimeter.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> Boom.
> 
> View attachment 15887489
> View attachment 15887491


Yup, that's the one. Hoping mine will be here by the end of the week.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

docvail said:


> Have some more.
> 
> View attachment 15888092
> View attachment 15888093


Very Nice! Hoping mine shows up soon! Is the rotating bezel dark blue or black? Hard to tell


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A window into my world...

My OEM emailed me to tell me they sent us more of the Antilles. But we're still waiting on the last 30 pieces. There's a new problem, discovered after pressure testing. Something caused the bezel action to get messed up, and make it feel too tight when rotating.

How did we get here?

Well...I think the problems we've had are related.

Unlike the Azores, the Antilles bezels have a little lume dot on their beveled surface, to align with the larger mark on the top surface, at every hour. Apparently all the Antilles bezels were originally mis-printed, somehow. And it was something to do with that little dot, but they didn't realize it until after they did assembly. So they had to take all the Antilles apart, and have the bezels remade.

The second go-round, it seems that some of them were still mis-printed, but in a less-obvious way. Those pieces needed to be dis-assembled, and once again, the bezels needed to be remade.

I have no idea how or why this has happened. I can't remember if we had similar problems the first time we made the Antilles, with the same bezel design, back in 2016-2017. If we had this problem then, though, I think I'd remember it. So I don't think we had it. Either we switched bezel vendors, or the original vendor just $hlt the bed on us, big time. 

I suspect that the third time they assembled these watches, something different was done in assembly. Maybe something as subtle as a different thickness gasket used on the case back. Whatever it is, they didn't realize there was a problem until they did the pressure test (yes, we pressure-test each and every watch individually, post-assembly). My guess is the pressure test led to a reduction in clearances inside the case, causing the bezel to rub against the dial.

If I'd known something as stupid as 12 little dots of ink or paint would cause these sorts of problems, I'd have told them to skip the dots.

Here's the part that confounds me...

We had a problem with the internal clearances on the v.1 Tropics. About 5% of the bezels rubbed on the dials, and we had to replace those dials and cases for the peeps who got those watches. The only explanation we could find was that in those pieces, either the dial or the bezel (or both) was slightly thicker than spec, and that fraction of a millimeter difference removed the clearance we needed to keep the bezel from rubbing against the dial. 

When we decided to make the v.2's, with the Miyota movements (as opposed to the thicker STP1-11's we used in the v.1's), I asked my OEM to revisit the case design. Not only did I ask them to revert back to the original plans for the v.1's (the original plan was to use the Miyotas - we modified the original case design when we decided to "upgrade" to the STP's), but also to make sure they had enough clearance between the dial and bezel. This is why the overall case thickness is virtually unchanged between v.1 and v.2, even though the Miyota movement is thinner than the STP.

So...we didn't have the problem with those little lume dots on the v.1 bezels, only the v.2. And, I thought we solved the internal clearance issue from the v.1's for the v.2's. 

I am Jack's raging bile duct.

To top it all off - the 10 Barracuda Polar Whites they sent me? They used the blue lume from the markers/hands on the bezel insert. So we need to remake and replace all those. Also, 10 of the no-date Subs they sent us had with-date movements. Dan has to swap all those out with true no-date movements they're sending us. So there's another 20 watches we can't ship yet.

I have every confidence that they'll figure out what's different about those 30 Antilles pieces, and sort it all out. No one needs to be concerned about that. It's all just extremely frustrating, as it's all completely out of my control. It's all problems we either couldn't foresee, or we did, and took steps to avoid, but still had the problems anyway.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chatoboy said:


> Very Nice! Hoping mine shows up soon! Is the rotating bezel dark blue or black? Hard to tell


They're all black.

If you ask "what shade of black", you have to leave this thread forever.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> A window into my world...
> 
> My OEM emailed me to tell me they sent us more of the Antilles. But we're still waiting on the last 30 pieces. There's a new problem, discovered after pressure testing. Something caused the bezel action to get messed up, and make it feel too tight when rotating.
> 
> ...


----------



## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

docvail said:


> They're all black.
> 
> If you ask "what shade of black", you have to leave this thread forever.


? I'm glad they're black as it will help minimize the appearance of size due to the different shade.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> A window into my world...
> 
> My OEM emailed me to tell me they sent us more of the Antilles. But we're still waiting on the last 30 pieces. There's a new problem, discovered after pressure testing. Something caused the bezel action to get messed up, and make it feel too tight when rotating.
> 
> ...


Sounds hair pullingly frustrating.

I see a positive in that you have a reasonably straight dealing OEM who has found the problem, admitted it, and resolved to sort it.
I can imagine plenty of situations where a manufacturer would have an entirely negative, bl**dy minded, and fully denying approach to resolving problems like these.

All through my working career I've always accepted that nothing will go as planned. Unless you do the impossible and do everything yourself. 
I think the military have a saying about snafus. Something along the lines of "no plan survives first contact with the enemy". 
The worst thing about things like this is_ all the extra time _they take up of the working day.

I suggest heavy drinking....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Sounds hair pullingly frustrating.
> 
> I see a positive in that you have a reasonably straight dealing OEM who has found the problem, admitted it, and resolved to sort it.
> I can imagine plenty of situations where a manufacturer would have an entirely negative, bl**dy minded, and fully denying approach to resolving problems like these.
> ...


It is very frustrating, especially this time of year, when I'm scrambling to finish up (and pay) my taxes. It also seems like this is always the time of year when there's a problem with one of our cars, or my wife has to take a business trip, or both, or something else happens to suck up more time that I can't really spare.

That said, yes, having the relationship I do with my OEM, and his generally impeccable character, do go a long way to keeping me from completely losing my $hlt when things go sideways. It's very unusual that we don't immediately agree when there's a problem.

Mike Tyson famously said, "Everyone hath a plan until they get punthed in the mouth."

I feel like I've been getting punthed a lot lately.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh, taxes. That's another thing...

Our little suburb has a "business privilege tax". Okay, yeah, my business is "located" here, but I do absolutely no business here. The last time I sold a watch to anyone in this town was 2014 or 2015. It's not like my little home office in the garage enjoys the benefits of the township plowing the parking spaces out front when it snows, or however they rationalize this bullspit.

The return I have to file is insane. I can't even figure it out. I pay my accountant to do it, along with my other tax work. He's probably charging me $200 to do it, when the check I cut them is less than $2k.

The worst part - they tax gross revenues (total sales), not net profits. My business could actually LOSE money, and I'd still owe them taxes.

The 2nd to worst part - they demand businesses pay the taxes IN ADVANCE, at the beginning of the year. The "return" I'm filing now is for 2021, not 2020.

The way it works - they look at your past year's business revenue, tack on 10%, and that's what you pay. If your sales go down, or are less than 10% higher, then they give you a credit for the amount you overpaid, but in the following year. If your sales are higher than 10% more, then you need to pay any additional amount for the previous year when you file your taxes for the current year.

So, what we paid in 2019 was based on 2018, and what we paid in 2020 was based on 2019, etc. But even if your sales go DOWN from one year to the next, they still tack on that 10% additional amount and expect you to pay it for the current year.

This is why I let my accountant do it. Every year, he has to do two calculations, because the one for this year requires him to re-calculate what we did last year, based on actual sales, rather than the projection he did a year earlier.

So, it turns out we over-paid in 2020. My accountant prepared a return, and applied that credit for the difference. I was just about to send in the return when I got some paperwork from the township, regarding our 2020 return (the one we filed last year), with some calculation based on what we paid in 2018, not 2019. It looks like they think we actually under-paid, not over-paid.

We're now totally confused, and we can't get anyone at the township on the phone. I just have to cut a check for $200 more than we thought, and hope they figure out their mistake and refund us. But my bet is they'll just keep the money, and credit us against next year's payment.

Bastards. A pox on all their houses.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Have some more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





^Gurthang54 said:


> Damn! now I go change my pants.....





Slant said:


> Kinda reminds me of a sunburst dial. Since you think the pattern looks like wood at the center and wanna call the outside ring "denim"...
> 
> My vote goes to "woodburst in denim".


Called it! The dial name all makes sense now


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> They're all black.
> 
> If you ask "what shade of black", you have to leave this thread forever.


It sort of looks like you went with a lighter black this time...

(Argh, I have to add the loathsome "just kidding", due to the probability of Doc being asked if it is in fact... a lighter black.)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This week is awesome.

My son's car broke last week. He's been borrowing mine or my wife's. Talked to the mechanic about it today. It's bad. Might not be worth fixing. We literally just bought it a few months ago.

One of my wife's friends from work told us a few weeks ago that the mileage reimbursement she's been getting is probably taxable, due to the age of her car (it's a 2013). We just confirmed it a minute ago. We're probably getting taxed on about $6k per year of her reimbursement, unless we buy her a newer car.

So now, we're not only trying to figure out if it's worth fixing my son's car, we're trying to figure out if it's worth getting my wife a newer car.

I hate buying cars.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I hate buying cars.


Well, you're about to hate it more if you haven't already done some recent looking around. Selection down, prices up.

I had 16 years to get a car for my kid. Waiting until the last month is shaping up to be a chump move. Went to a local dealer this weekend to drive the only local example of a car we're targeting. They should have been embarrassed to have that particular car on their lot. Interior stained to an alarming degree, steering wheel and window surrounds falling apart from sun damage, various crap on the floor and in the spare tire well (paperclips, lipstick, markers, lightning cable, etc), exterior scratched and dinged all to heck. The trunk lid looked like it had done duty as a storage shelf for... I don't know.. bricks, plywood? Drove like a champ though.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

3WR said:


> Well, you're about to hate it more if you haven't already done some recent looking around. Selection down, prices up.
> 
> I had 16 years to get a car for my kid. Waiting until the last month is shaping up to be a chump move. Went to a local dealer this weekend to drive the only local example of a car we're targeting. They should have been embarrassed to have that particular car on their lot. Interior stained to an alarming degree, steering wheel and window surrounds falling apart from sun damage, various crap on the floor and in the spare tire well (paperclips, lipstick, markers, lightning cable, etc), exterior scratched and dinged all to heck. The trunk lid looked like it had done duty as a storage shelf for... I don't know.. bricks, plywood? Drove like a champ though.


Ah yes... but it will build the boys character!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

BVB









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Who wants to join team NTH by helping us test a new function on the website?

This an unpaid job, by the way. Like a college internship, except with zero chance of being sexually harassed by your employer. Sorry to disappoint. We both know you would have been asking for it.

We just added a new "wish list" app to the site. The way it's supposed to work is pretty straightforward.

You can go into any product page, and click the "add to wishlist" link.










Even if you're not logged into a customer account on the site, this should start a wish list for you. You can add as many products as you want.

Once you're done building your wish list, you can see your list by clicking on the heart icon at the top right corner of the site, in between the site login and the cart.










From there, you can share your list on social media, or send it to someone via email, WhatsApp, or copy a link you can paste into a text message. They can then in turn click the link they receive, and BOOM - they're looking at your wish list.










If you log into your customer account on the site, it'll actually save your list, so you can edit or add to it on future visits.

Who would you send your list to?

OMG, I'm so glad you asked.

You know father's day is coming up, right? Or maybe your birthday? You want a necktie? Or socks? Maybe send it to your significant other, or anyone's significant other, I don't judge.

If you feel like doing me a solid, try it out. On a PC, or a Mac, or on mobile. Let me know how it worked for you. See if you can find any problems with using any of the share links, or if the links received in the message you send don't work.

If you find any problems, please let know what problem you found, what sort of device you were using, what browser or app, where you are in the world, etc.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Logged in. Created a wishlist and sent it via email to myself. Also clicked the link and it led me to the wishlist. My only criticism is that the subject email link only reads My Wishlist. Maybe have yhe registered person's name in the subject line?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Did the same as kp above. 

Phone(Android) email received it as a functioning hyperlink that did work. Tablet email, the link would need to be copied/pasted into the browser to view it. But it is a POS Fire Tablet. 

As for FB/Twitter/WhatsApp, can't help out. Never had 'em, don't want 'em.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

And a side note....

*THURSDAY! THURSDAY! THURSDAY!!!*

Is when FedEx says my Azores will be delivered.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

Ho folks, long time no log-in. Trying to pace myself from watch buying. Silly, right?

So I was loading a bicycle onto a rack and caught the edge of the bezel on the seat hard enough to flick the bezel right off my NTH Odin. Totally my fault.
I got it back on but am probably missing a ball or two, and maybe springs that make it ratchet? The bezel turns nicely but no clicky (my fidget spinner).


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Chuckracer said:


> Ho folks, long time no log-in. Trying to pace myself from watch buying. Silly, right?
> 
> So I was loading a bicycle onto a rack and flicked the bezel right off my NTH Odin. I got it back on but am probably missing a ball or two, and maybe springs that make it ratchet? The bezel turns nicely but no clicky (my fidget spinner).


I bought (and returned immediately) a model last year for that very same reason. In fact, the bezel had fallen off in shipping on mine. Wasn't comfortable keeping it no matter what.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Is there a new sub available to add? I really wish for one of those!!!

To ChuckRacer. Contact NTH directly through the customer service link on the website. They are great with response time and have been amazing to work with any time I needed help.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chuckracer said:


> Ho folks, long time no log-in. Trying to pace myself from watch buying. Silly, right?
> 
> So I was loading a bicycle onto a rack and flicked the bezel right off my NTH Odin. I got it back on but am probably missing a ball or two, and maybe springs that make it ratchet? The bezel turns nicely but no clicky (my fidget spinner).


Most likely, we need to replace your case.

Please, the best way to get support is to contact us via email to customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com, or submitting the contact form on our website, not posting to a public forum.

While I happen to still be in the office at the moment (8:35pm here), and happen to be looking at this thread, ordinarily, our response time is going to be faster using the appropriate support channels.

Even if we do a fantastic job sorting out your issue, as we always have, I'm sure you understand how it doesn't help business to post pics showing broken watches here on the forum thread about NTH.

Even if the problem was limited to 50-100 cases, from a single release, 2 years ago - as you can see, some folks have long memories, and apparently view it as an indicator of larger quality concerns, even if we've invested a ton of time and money in replacing all of those cases for customers, free of charge, and will continue to do so, even now, when we may be outside of the warranty period.

I sincerely appreciate your understanding.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

I removed the offending picture. To be clear: This was my fault entirely and certainly no slight on the quality of NTH watches. I love the watch and have no desire to replace it. I was in a hurry and caught that bezel edge good and hard.

I posted here first in hopes that I was missing something and the fix was simple. I had problems with a Suhr guitar amp a couple years ago that I had bought used and posted on a guitar and amp forum to see if there was a simple fix out there, something I hadn't thought of. John Suhr saw the post and asked me to contact Customer Service, and that they will take care of it. I thanked him and told him that I appreciate it but I wasn't the original owner. John said to send it in anyway as they stand behind their products...much like you do, Chris. John took it in stride. We've since chatted often having similar interests outside of music.

Thank you. I will contact CS tomorrow.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Is there a new sub available to add? I really wish for one of those!!!


I'm not sure I follow. New Sub?

If you mean the v.2's, they're not expected until late next month.

If you mean some of the older Subs models we just brought back, the Amphion Commando, Dolphin Magenta, or Odin Blue - your best (and for the moment, your only) shot is to buy one from Watch Gauge or Serious Watches.

The no-date Barracuda Polar Whites we were expecting, and the no-date versions of the Dolphin and Odin should hopefully be available within a week or two. We have to do some parts-swapping to fix some assembly errors, and we're still waiting to receive the parts.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Is it just me or is that bezel-less Odin kinda hot...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chuckracer said:


> I removed the offending picture. To be clear: This was my fault entirely and certainly no slight on the quality of NTH watches. I love the watch and have no desire to replace it. I was in a hurry and caught it good and hard.
> 
> I will contact CS tomorrow.


Actually, it wasn't your fault. It was our case factory's. You did nothing to break the watch. The bezels aren't supposed to come off like that. I don't care how hard you hit it with your bike, or whatever.

They cut the bezel retention ledge at an angle, like beveled, instead of straight-in, perpendicular to the case wall. As a result, the bezels can be popped off if you catch 'em just right. It's not something we were checking in QC before we realized it happened, because why would we?

A-holes. I could murder them.

It's cool though. My OEM read them the riot act, and they sent us a bunch of replacement cases. Good news - you win a brand new case.

Contact CS. We'll get it sorted with a new case, lickety-split. You have my word.

Thanks for understanding. Sorry for the hassle.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> BVB
> View attachment 15889027
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Killer photo.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Is it just me or is that bezel-less Odin kinda hot...


Weirdo.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Weirdo.


You think normal people hang out here?

Bezel-less worked for Brando!

Or more likely, Brando made bezel-less work....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> You think normal people hang out here?
> 
> Bezel-less worked for Brando!
> 
> Or more likely, Brando made bezel-less work....


The other night, I caught a snippet of some preview for some documentary about comedian Richard Pryor. The snippet I caught seemed to be overly focused on Pryor's, uhm...switch-hitting affairs. Apparently he and Brando had, uhm...a thing.

There are some things I could stand not knowing. That's one of them.

But there, now you know it too.

That's what you get for bringing Brando up in my thread, and being weird.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Re: Wish list. From iPad iOS 14.6 beta, went to your website using Safari, added watch to wish list. Sent email to myself. Opened fine. Also opened on iPhone 8. No issues.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> Is it just me or is that bezel-less Odin kinda hot...


Just you, me thinks.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> The other night, I caught a snippet of some preview for some documentary about comedian Richard Pryor. The snippet I caught seemed to be overly focused on Pryor's, uhm...switch-hitting affairs. Apparently he and Brando had, uhm...a thing.
> 
> There are some things I could stand not knowing. That's one of them.
> 
> ...


It was, in retrospect, decidedly _not_ worth it.


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

No, he may be on to something with the bezel-less Odin. Maybe just a thin, smooth, plain tapered aluminum bezel...


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

Doc, the wish list worked, but not exactly as planned. I was not logged in. I selected a watch from the “nearly new” list and added to my wish list. I got the pop up that it was added but I didn’t see a link for my list between the search and cart icons. However, I hit the menu to go out to the regular watches, thinking it might show up there. A wish list option (with a 1, for the one watch I added) showed up at the bottom of the menu. Selecting that brought me to my list. I copied the link and sent to a friend by text, who confirmed that it pulled up the watch I selected. Both of us were using iPhone 8’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chuckracer (Mar 11, 2020)

Wishlist worked just fine for me - google Chrome on a Mac, shared it with my fiance's iphone who advised me to keep wishing. Guess that means I need to add more watches!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

RotorRonin said:


> Killer photo.


Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Tried the wishlist feature. Sharing via mail works fine. It's probably not your main focus or how the feature was intended to be used but, if you have multiple configs of the same article (think bezel inserts) you cannot add multiple different options to the wish list.

Say I wanted two inserts. I can add one by first selecting it, and after clicking the heart button the right insert appears on the wish list. If I switch to a different insert and want to add that too, I can only remove the wish listed item and replace it with the new one, but I cannot have both on my list.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Also - this beauty has been criminally neglected over the past few weeks. Decidedly a summer watch, so it's high time to bust it out


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Chuckracer said:


> No, he may be on to something with the bezel-less Odin. Maybe just a thin, smooth, plain tapered aluminum bezel...


Check out Rustys new(ish) brand if you havent already. Atticus.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shrewboy said:


> Doc, the wish list worked, but not exactly as planned. I was not logged in. I selected a watch from the "nearly new" list and added to my wish list. I got the pop up that it was added but I didn't see a link for my list between the search and cart icons. However, I hit the menu to go out to the regular watches, thinking it might show up there. A wish list option (with a 1, for the one watch I added) showed up at the bottom of the menu. Selecting that brought me to my list. I copied the link and sent to a friend by text, who confirmed that it pulled up the watch I selected. Both of us were using iPhone 8's.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Tried the wishlist feature. Sharing via mail works fine. It's probably not your main focus or how the feature was intended to be used but, if you have multiple configs of the same article (think bezel inserts) you cannot add multiple different options to the wish list.
> 
> Say I wanted two inserts. I can add one by first selecting it, and after clicking the heart button the right insert appears on the wish list. If I switch to a different insert and want to add that too, I can only remove the wish listed item and replace it with the new one, but I cannot have both on my list.


Interesting. Thanks guys (all of you who've tried it). This feedback is helpful.

We may need to try to tweak it a little bit for products with multiple options, or simply accept that limitation.

I really don't want to have to create separate products or every date / no-date, oyster / BOR variant for every watch that has one.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Hmmm, a brief pause here to post a watch photo.



Got my new 22mm Viton strap yesterday. Mounting was easy-peasy using the springbars included with the strap. Viton seems to be ideal as a material for straps. I reserve the right to change my mind in the future, though.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Hmmm, a brief pause here to post a watch photo.
> 
> 
> 
> Got my new 22mm Viton strap yesterday. Mounting was easy-peasy using the springbars included with the strap. Viton seems to be ideal as a material for straps. I reserve the right to change my mind in the future, though.


Looks great on the Commander!

You're allowed to change your mind in the future. For now, I assume you see the difference between it and the $15 silicone version on Amazon.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Looks great on the Commander!
> 
> You're allowed to change your mind in the future. For now, I assume you see the difference between it and the $15 silicone version on Amazon.


This is better, hands down. I'm even thinking of getting one of your 20mm straps for my Amphion. Are those Viton? or what?


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I'm a bit late to the party. 

But I created a wishlist and emailed it to my self... (I don't do FB or Twitter unless under threat of torture)
All worked fine, the email gives a web address and a short one line explanation. From memory, something like "I want you to buy me these very pretty things, they're precious".

Seemed to work fine. Rather liked it actually.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Things you learn while running a business, chapter 27...

PayPal's "Seller Protection" has an interesting loophole in it. Apparently it isn't in effect while the item is in transit.

So, theoretically, let's just say I had an order come through the site, paid for with PayPal, but something about it makes my a-hole sense tingle. We've never had a fraudulent transaction involving someone using PayPal, only credit cards, but there's always a first time.

Let's say I check with PayPal to confirm the shipping address, and that the order is in fact eligible for their seller protection, which supposedly means that as long as I ship to the delivery address, the one they've supposedly "confirmed" belongs to the account owner, and that person is who they say they are, I'm "covered" as the seller.

Supposedly, even if the transaction is later disputed, or the item was marked as "delivered", but the customer says they didn't receive it, PayPal doesn't pull the money back from my account. 

That's "seller protection" in a nutshell.

But, according to PayPal, once I ship the order, even if I use the address they "verified", I'm not yet "protected", until the order is marked as "delivered". If it takes a week, maybe longer to reach its destination, I'm at risk of the transaction being disputed during that time.

The PayPal rep I spoke to advised me to wait a week before shipping. Okayyy...

This is nuts. They want me and other sellers to accept PayPal. They make it sound less risky, because they've "verified" the customer's address somehow. But the truth is their seller protection has a huge gaping hole in it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> This is better, hands down. I'm even thinking of getting one of your 20mm straps for my Amphion. Are those Viton? or what?


The fitted ones are, yes.

Be aware that getting one onto the Subs case isn't going to be as easy as it was with the Orthos. I've gotten at least 3 complaints so far, having sold about 30-40 of those straps.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Things you learn while running a business, chapter 27...
> 
> PayPal's "Seller Protection" has an interesting loophole in it. Apparently it isn't in effect while the item is in transit.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I've got my head round this.

If the item is collected by the carrier and they "deliver" it officially, you are then covered by PayPal. So if the customer then plays silly b*gg*ers you're covered.
If the item is collected by the carrier, which you have paid proof of. But if it then isn't "delivered" (lost in the post as it were) surely you're then covered by the carrier?
I insure any parcel I send for its value. So that's it's covered against getting lost in the post - non delivered.

So if not covered by PP, you're covered by the Carrier. Is that correct reading of the situation?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

RotorRonin said:


> Is it just me or is that bezel-less Odin kinda hot...


All the cool kids are doing it...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> All the cool kids are doing it...
> 
> View attachment 15891422


I can't helping of something I recently heard involving him and a famous comic.
I need to floss my mind. Some images are so horrendous you can only self-lobotomise.

Wasn't the filming of Apocalypse Now famously difficult because of Brando's industrial consumption of plant based stimulants? Pryor was famous for something similar I believe.
Perhaps it gave them something to talk about.. That must've been it.....?


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## wusnutt (Apr 30, 2018)

Looking to pick up a Nacken and comparing the Modern vs Vintage Black. Obvious differences I see are the dial texture, bezel color, and slightly different lume. Anyone have experience with both? Preference?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I'm not sure I've got my head round this.
> 
> If the item is collected by the carrier and they "deliver" it officially, you are then covered by PayPal. So if the customer then plays silly b*gg*ers you're covered.
> If the item is collected by the carrier, which you have paid proof of. But if it then isn't "delivered" (lost in the post as it were) surely you're then covered by the carrier?
> ...


I'm not worried about the carrier losing it. I either insure the shipment, or assume that risk. We insure most shipments, but the vast majority of that money is wasted, so few get lost.

What I'm worried about in this instance is a potential fraud, and that it will be reported while the shipment is in transit.

Theoretically, someone could hack into another person's PayPal account, change the shipping address and identifying info, get PayPal to "verify" that address, then use that PayPal account to pay for an item, using money already in the account, or pulled from the account owner's bank account, because that's how PayPal works. If there's no money in your PP account, they pull it from your bank.

If that happened to someone, and they weren't checking their PayPal or bank balance frequently, it could be a while before they discover it. It's also possible that someone could just set up a PayPal account using someone else's banking info.

It's happened to me and my wife. Someone used our bank account to pay their credit card bill. Another time, there were large transfers to PayPal. We got the money back, but what happens is the bank credits our account, then tries to recover the funds from the credit card issuer or PayPal. The CC company or PayPal aren't going to just eat it. The onus to prevent fraud is on the merchant, so they'll charge that back to the merchant's account.

Most of the fraud attempts we see come from outside the US, very often parts of the world not known for being very wealthy, and so we don't see a lot of orders from those places. Very often these places are known for being hotbeds of terrorism, or criminal activity, so when I see an order come from one of these places, it immediately raises suspicions.

When I look at the orders more closely, there are some things we look for to give an indication of fraud, but they're mostly related do credit card transactions, not PayPal, because credit card fraud is easy compared to PP fraud.

When I saw this order, I called PayPal, explained what I saw on my end, and asked the rep to look at the customer's account, to see if there was any suspicious activity, or better yet, clear signs of fraud. I also asked if I was covered by seller protection, in the event he didn't see anything, and I shipped the order.

The guy equivocated. He said he couldn't tell me WHAT he saw, but there was SOMETHING which MIGHT be suspicious, but not tell-tale. He said I was covered, but only after the order was delivered, which is when I stopped and got him to explain. I confirmed it by reading PayPal's terms.

If this was an order from with the US, I'd be less suspicious, and less worried, because fraud is less likely, and shipping takes less time. In this instance, the destination and details of the order give me pause.

I contacted the customer to say we'd be holding shipment for a week. I don't like doing it, as the watch is supposedly a gift for someone, so we're on a timeline, so to speak. But I really don't like that PayPal's presentation of "this order eligible for Seller Protection" is very prominent, but the risk is down in the fine-print.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ahh, I get it. The holding it for a week means that if it's been bought fraudulently, the person whose money it actually is should've realised by then, and the order would be cancelled.

Yeah, that's a big gap in coverage. Requiring delivery before picking up protection. 
I suppose forewarned is forearmed in this case.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

wusnutt said:


> Looking to pick up a Nacken and comparing the Modern vs Vintage Black. Obvious differences I see are the dial texture, bezel color, and slightly different lume. Anyone have experience with both? Preference?


I do not have the Näcken Modern Black, but I have the Modern Blue and the Vintage Black. They give different vibes. The Vintage Black is definitely more vintage looking. The Vintage variant has textured black dial, and very strong C3 lume, like "you can read a book in the middle of the night with it" strong. The Modern has BGW9 lume, and while it is good, it does not compare to the vintage in strength. I also prefer the color of C3, both in daylight and at night.

I think the Modern Black would be more versatile due to the monochromatic colour scheme. I like to change straps often, and I found that I have more difficulty finding something for the Vintage compared to the Modern, or for my other black & white NTH Subs for example. I think this is due to the bezel colour.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

I need to get more wristshots, I could not find any recent photos of my Näckens, but here are two old ones:


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Nacken Vintage and Nacken Modern are two different watches. The snowflake indices and hands are the commonality. But the vintage has green lume, and rough dial feel totally different from the modern’s blue lume, and matte finish dial with more distinctly raised square indices. 

I disliked the vintage, and love the modern. When doc releases the v2 subs, I’ll either buy a new Nacken modern or rebuy a v1. Just waiting to see the new ones “in the metal” so to speak!


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## wusnutt (Apr 30, 2018)

Thanks for the help. The textured dial of the vintage is an interesting design aspect but I think I may prefer the more stark contrast of the modern. Decisions, decisions.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Ahh, I get it. The holding it for a week means that if it's been bought fraudulently, the person whose money it actually is should've realised by then, and the order would be cancelled.
> 
> Yeah, that's a big gap in coverage. Requiring delivery before picking up protection.
> I suppose forewarned is forearmed in this case.


You got it.

Hopefully, if the order is fraudulent, the person whose money it is will spot it before we ship. But in my case, we actually didn't spot the PayPal fraud in our bank account for a couple of months. I was looking at my business account every day, and assumed my wife was frequently looking at our personal accounts, because she pays the bills. Apparently not, though.

So now I make sure to check both accounts at least once a week. I've also upgraded my business account to a "treasury" account, which costs me almost $300 per month, but makes it impossible for someone to pull money from the account just by having the routing and account numbers.

Have I mentioned what bottom-feeding parasites fraudsters are?

My site does a good job of preventing most frauds. Occasionally, one will get through, but the site also does a good job of flagging potentially fraudulent orders. The difficulty arises from the fact that some of those aren't obviously frauds, and could be legitimate transactions, flagged for understandable reasons. Sometimes, an order isn't flagged, but it still looks fishy, so we'll take a closer look. If I'm not comfortable with it, I cancel and refund the order. More often than not, I'm canceling a credit card transaction, and suggesting they re-order using PayPal.

In 8 years, I think we've been burned 4 times, if that.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wusnutt said:


> Looking to pick up a Nacken and comparing the Modern vs Vintage Black. Obvious differences I see are the dial texture, bezel color, and slightly different lume. Anyone have experience with both? Preference?


In addition to what you've seen, modern black's indices are applied. Vintage black's are printed.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> I do not have the Näcken Modern Black, but I have the Modern Blue and the Vintage Black. They give different vibes. The Vintage Black is definitely more vintage looking. The Vintage variant has textured black dial, and very strong C3 lume, like "you can read a book in the middle of the night with it" strong. The Modern has BGW9 lume, and while it is good, it does not compare to the vintage in strength. I also prefer the color of C3, both in daylight and at night.
> 
> I think the Modern Black would be more versatile due to the monochromatic colour scheme. I like to change straps often, and I found that I have more difficulty finding something for the Vintage compared to the Modern, or for my other black & white NTH Subs for example. I think this is due to the bezel colour.


I'm happy you're happy, and as such, I hate to contradict you, but I'm a nut for accuracy when it comes to describing the product.

The lume on the vintage black and vintage blue bezel is C3, but on the dial and hands, it isn't. It's actually what Tritec calls "Natural".

Supposedly it's more yellow than C3, and not as bright as BG W9. But our experience has been it only looks really yellow on a bezel. On the dial it's often more neutral, slightly putty-colored, and it's no slouch in the brightness department.

We've used it when we wanted to get a vintage look, without going full on fauxtina with "Old Radium" lume. It's the same lume color we've used on the Amphion Commando, the Bahia, and I think the Tikuna, though I'm not positive about that one.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

wusnutt said:


> Thanks for the help. The textured dial of the vintage is an interesting design aspect but I think I may prefer the more stark contrast of the modern. Decisions, decisions.


Nacken modern dials are something pretty special. Something that seems to rarely come through in photos is one of my favorite design aspects, the raised indices.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Regarding the Nacken vintage black dial... I was hesitant to buy the textured dial. But in hand and at 12-15" away from your eyes the texture turns into a matt dial. The close up pics show the texture, but in real life it doesn't look that way unless you're up close.
Hope this helps!


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> All the cool kids are doing it...
> 
> View attachment 15891422


"Are my methods unsound?"
"You're an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Have I mentioned what bottom-feeding parasites fraudsters are?


Working in hospitality. We have a a certain type of customer in the UK who have very distinctive accents. We don't ever discriminate, and I wouldn't dream of it based on colour, religion, or ableness. Rather I encourage and positively want help people, obviously.
But these people are famous, for never working (officially), never paying any taxes, always trying to scam everything and everyone, and of course criminality. Any one in the UK will know instantly who I'm talking about.
They mostly can't read, so can't book online. If they phone up to book - they always seem to phone when we're full. It can be quiet season, but we'll mysteriously just have taken a big group booking and filled up, literally the minute before. And if it looks like we've got places free online, it's because they've not had time to show up there.
The last time we had them, we had four rooms booked online (someone must've been to school and learned to read). Four rooms is a maximum of 12 adults, or 8 adults 8 children. We never worked it out, but there were about 35 of them. We had to call the police twice, once for fighting amongst themselves and another time for abusing other guests. But if you can't identify the individual involved, you can't throw them out. They were booked two nights. We kicked them out after the first night and they smashed everything up in their rooms, and stole all the breakfast stuff including the coffee machine. Which we couldn't charge them for, because the cc cards were defunct immediately.
Took a month to resolve all the complaints and refunds from and for the other guests.
But I do like my job all the same.....


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Working in hospitality. We have a a certain type of customer in the UK who have very distinctive accents. We don't ever discriminate, and I wouldn't dream of it based on colour, religion, or ableness. Rather I encourage and positively want help people, obviously.
> But these people are famous, for never working (officially), never paying any taxes, always trying to scam everything and everyone, and of course criminality. Any one in the UK will know instantly who I'm talking about.
> They mostly can't read, so can't book online. If they phone up to book - they always seem to phone when we're full. It can be quiet season, but we'll mysteriously just have taken a big group booking and filled up, literally the minute before. And if it looks like we've got places free online, it's because they've not had time to show up there.
> The last time we had them, we had four rooms booked online (someone must've been to school and learned to read). Four rooms is a maximum of 12 adults, or 8 adults 8 children. We never worked it out, but there were about 35 of them. We had to call the police twice, once for fighting amongst themselves and another time for abusing other guests. But if you can't identify the individual involved, you can't throw them out. They were booked two nights. We kicked them out after the first night and they smashed everything up in their rooms, and stole all the breakfast stuff including the coffee machine. Which we couldn't charge them for, because the cc cards were defunct immediately.
> ...


Was it Brad Pitt and his buddies? I bet it was.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Was it Brad Pitt and his buddies? I bet it was.
> View attachment 15892619


Lol..... 🤣🤦‍♂️ Very much so 😐


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Was it Brad Pitt and his buddies? I bet it was.
> View attachment 15892619












Fun Fact - I'm a half decent mimic. Give me a few minutes listening to someone, and I can fake their speech patterns pretty well (just about anyone, except for Christopher Walken, he's next to impossible). I've actually fooled foreigners into thinking I'm from the same place they were.

I did Brad Pitt's Pikey accent from Snatch the whole drive home from watching that movie. Annoyed the hell out of my wife.

It's one of my favorites, and one of the easier ones to mimic. It's kind of staccato, no change-ups in pace, with a lot of back-of-the-throat vowels, sort of like a drunk Boston accent.

I did the same thing with the Mr. Chow accent, the whole way home from watching the Hangover. It's fun to see my wife get really annoyed, but at the same time, she can't stop laughing.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Was it Brad Pitt and his buddies? I bet it was.
> View attachment 15892619


came to say this. You, sir @catsteeth paint quite a picture with words  I lived in Ireland for 10 years. First time you see them on the motorway riding horse carriages you are shocked. Then you get used to it. And then you see this:


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

Ah, pikeys. I used to work the bars in north London. A common trick amongst _some_ pikeys was to send in a "scout" with (in their view) a softer accent to try and get served. If they were successful, they knew that they they were dealing with inexperienced bar staff, and slowly they would come inside in dribs and drabs, until suddenly you had a bar full of pikeys.

Then all bets were off. They'd smash the place up, bring in their own kegs and have a whale of a time.

I remember one time seeing one of the other barmen - an Aussie - having a difficult time with a customer. I went over. "I can't understand a word he's saying" says my colleague. Immediate alarm bells. Sure enough, a pikey (weirdly trying to get toilet roll, but anyway). Sorry mate, bar's full. Or closing. Or it's a private function or you don't have ID. Take your pick, but I can't serve you.

Out he goes to where his mates are waiting in the car park, playing toss the penny. At this point I'm a little nervous, because the pikeys have been known to express their views through the medium of glass window rearrangement. (As they say in Snatch, "For every action, there's a reaction. And a pikey reaction is quite a ****ing thing.")

Luckily, after 20 mins or so, off they go.

Turns out another pub a few miles away hadn't got the memo and let them in.

They trashed that place over 2 solid days. Stole and drank all the stock. Nicked anything that wasn't nailed down and a lot that was. Set fire to furniture. Used the place as a toilet. Brought in their own stuff and animals and basically settled in for the long-haul.

The police camped outside in full riot gear, refusing to go in. Their view was the pikeys were better off contained in one place, it wasn't worth the broken bones and the place had insurance anyway.

When the pikeys finally left, the place looked like those videos of the aftermath of tornadoes. Utter carnage and the pub was shut for months afterwards for repairs.

Good times.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

The stark all-whiteness and raised-ness of the indices are what keep me coming back to the modern Nack


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

DevilRay back on its bracelet now that I am home from the ship. I'm leaving fitting my new rubber strap till later, any top tips to make it an easier fit?


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## Herbert Bogner (Sep 26, 2020)

Just arrived, looks great.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> DevilRay back on its bracelet now that I am home from the ship. I'm leaving fitting my new rubber strap till later, any top tips to make it an easier fit?
> View attachment 15893076


Use the supplied spring bars. Use the spring bar tool like a crow bar, to lever the ends of the spring bars into the lug holes.

Try not to scratch the case, or stab yourself with the spring bar tool.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Edit: Finally sized. Still awesome.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So....prediction time...

According to what Keil and Kaj told me, the blue Azores was supposed to be the breakout hit of the v.2 Tropics. Watch Gecko also bet big on that one.

My hunch - just a hunch - is that the Absinthe Azores and the Dark Rum Antilles will end up being the ones people don't notice until they're gone, at which point I'll start getting emails asking when we'll make more.

Just a hunch.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> So....prediction time...
> 
> According to what Keil and Kaj told me, the blue Azores was supposed to be the breakout hit of the v.2 Tropics. Watch Gecko also bet big on that one.
> 
> ...


Well when Keil sent out his latest email blast mentioning new NTHs, he said he was completely out of Absinthe. Had _one_ Blue left. Did he order more blue than green?

I thought he only got 25 of each?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Well when Keil sent out his latest email blast mentioning new NTHs, he said he was completely out of Absinthe. Had _one_ Blue left. Did he order more blue than green?
> 
> I thought he only got 25 of each?


We only assembled 25 of each (25 date/25 no-date). He didn't get 25 of each.

He's also not sold out of the green, as far as I know. You might have misread that message. My bet is he's saying he's got more people on his wait list than he has watches to sell them. But not everyone on the wait list follows through.

He bought more of the Absinthe than he did of the Blue Curaçao, but that's not because he was betting one way or the other.

When I have a new release coming in, I tell John how many I think he should get, total. It's usually the same number of each SKU. Then I go and get Kaj's order, and do the same thing with him. Then I do the same thing, with each of my other retailers' orders, going from the guy who typically take the most to the guy who typically take the least.

Once I'm done, I circle back to John, tell him what the others ordered, and what I have left, so he can add to his order. Then I'll do the same with Kaj, etc, on down the list, from the guy who takes the most to the guy who takes the least. Anything the retailers don't take goes into my store's inventory.

There weren't as many blue Azores left for him to take, because everyone was betting that would be the darling of the bunch. So he just took what I had left of both.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> You might have misread that message.


Dug up that email. It appears you sir, are correct.

Anyways. Heres a quick and grainy, gratuitous lume shot taken with a potato camera.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Dug up that email. It appears you sir, are correct.
> 
> Anyways. Heres a quick and grainy, gratuitous lume shot taken with a potato camera.
> View attachment 15893930


What do you think of the dial texture? It's kind of crazy right?

Outer texture looks like denim, right?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

First time in 8 weeks I've been able to wear a mechanical... have been forced to wear quartz's due to left shoulder surgery and having to wear a sling for 6 weeks and then gimping around for another two. Just didn't generate enough movement to keep them going.

Funnily, the old bracelets didn't quite fit the right wrist, a tad tight. I wasn't going to adjust them for such a short period.

At least I've now got incentive to keep the left arm moving for rehab!









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> We only assembled 25 of each (25 date/25 no-date). He didn't get 25 of each.
> 
> He's also not sold out of the green, as far as I know. You might have misread that message. My bet is he's saying he's got more people on his wait list than he has watches to sell them. But not everyone on the wait list follows through.
> 
> ...


You should be incharge of the government's voting. You obviously understand complicated proportional sorting systems.

*That's a neutral statement. I follow, but don't comment on other countries politics ☕


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> What do you think of the dial texture? It's kind of crazy right?
> 
> Outer texture looks like denim, right?


In a nutshell, its nuckin futz. I already have the typical WIS problem of looking at my watch, admiring it, and completely forgetting to check the time.

This dial is only gonna exacerbate that issue.

My niggle, the tropic strap(which it and its size was discussed recently, IIRC). Is it comfortable? It was for the 60s it was on. Technically, it fit, yes. But with the buckle end being only 70mm it was way off being close to centered on my (7.5" - 7.625")wrist. Which is a peeve of mine.

But the tropic was a free extra, and the bracelet is as always, incredibly comfortable and had more than enough extra links. So my one and only complaint, is small potatoes and has zero to do with the watch at all.

The watch, is a homerun in my eyes. Bravo.

Side note. I know you're all about the simple and clean caseback on the Subs/2K1s... but this engraved caseback is done so well, I vote you do more in the future.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> So....prediction time...
> 
> According to what Keil and Kaj told me, the blue Azores was supposed to be the breakout hit of the v.2 Tropics. Watch Gecko also bet big on that one.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if green starts catching more eyes with the IRL photos starting to circulate. I've been waffling back and forth btwn the blue and green unable to commit yet, but I think the natural light photos have me thinking green no date will get my $$. I just have so much blue already, and not really much green. And I love green. It really suits this watch.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Thanks for the crowbar tip doc, strap now on and zero stabbings occurred. Super comfortable too.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> I just have so much blue already, and not really much green.


I was visiting a buddy a while back, around the time Doc was finally posting prototype shots. I was kinda dead set on the blue. I showed my buddy both to get his opinion, as I respect it. He convinced me to go with the green, as I already had three blue dial watches, and not one green. No other reasoning behind it. He liked em both, but he's definitely not a watch guy.

I was kinda nervous I'd end up not liking it, tbh. But damn, was I so very wrong. It is an eye catcher.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> First time in 8 weeks I've been able to wear a mechanical... have been forced to wear quartz's due to left shoulder surgery and having to wear a sling for 6 weeks and then gimping around for another two. Just didn't generate enough movement to keep them going.
> 
> Funnily, the old bracelets didn't quite fit the right wrist, a tad tight. I wasn't going to adjust them for such a short period.
> 
> ...


Welcome back to the automatic mafia.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

This watch is ****ing amazing. Gorgeous even. Full stop.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Bloom said:


> This watch is ****ing amazing. Gorgeous even. Full stop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol
Still no bluesy showing up... 
Hmmmmm


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> You should be incharge of the government's voting. You obviously understand complicated proportional sorting systems.
> 
> *That's a neutral statement. I follow, but don't comment on other countries politics ☕


Don't assume I'm achieving anything remotely close to perfect results based on anything I've said. It's an iterative process of trial and error. I just hope to get better with each iteration.

Complicating things is that we're often doing these allocations 30-60 days in advance of shipping. Anything can happen, anywhere in the world, to throw a wrench (sorry, "spanner", for you Brits) into our plans.

I'll be happy if and when we reach a point we're not seeing the last few pieces of a model stuck in one retailer's inventory for longer than six months.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> In a nutshell, its nuckin futz. I already have the typical WIS problem of looking at my watch, admiring it, and completely forgetting to check the time.
> 
> This dial is only gonna exacerbate that issue.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words. Seeing peeps post pics and enjoying a new release is one of my favorite parts of my job.

The no-nonsense case backs on the Subs and 2K1's are a nod to their military tool-watch roots. When I think about the Subs and 2K1's, I see them as a reflection of NTH's more sober nature, as compared to the drunken monkey that was Lew & Huey. They're meant to be "all-business".

But with other models, like the DevilRay and Tropics, we loosen up a little, and adopt a more "happy hour" sort of attitude about things. I'm sure we'll have other designs in the future, which have some more fun things happening out back.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You guys posting pics and saying nice things - you know I love seeing that, but I hope you're also posting other places, too. 

Word of mouth is the best advertising.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

I just caught up on the whole YT influencer thread. I have not much to add to the discussion, except one thing about what you said about TGV..

Around the time of NTH being featured was when I first got into watches. I do still watch him from time to time, but purely for entertainment. Anyhoo, he (and John from WatchGauge to a lesser degree) was the one who turned me on to NTH in the first place. I hesitated to get in on the Catalina, simply because I only had a Vostok and a Sea Urchin at that point, so 600-ish dollar (plus taxes) was a pretty tall order. I got in on it on the last day of the preorder period. Before that I checked every other day if the 100 spots were filled, fearing I would miss out. But I enjoyed the hell out of that watch, and out of every NTH I picked up since.

It's my least worn by now, the Amphion Vintage Gilt and Kiger are the most worn of the bunch. I haven't sold the Catalina yet, but I think it might be time to let it go to help fund the next pick up (v2, baby).. No other watch reviewer / channel / outlet has had the same effect since. Here's the real deal though - I may have picked up one watch because of the exposure through TGV. The other 3 I picked up because the product can stand on its own merit, because everytime I had dealings with you, Kai or John I got excellent support and because of the thread here on WUS is a stupidly effective at keeping me interested in new releases, previews and the woes and pains of the biz.

The gist of which is - Sure, influencers are gonna influence. But at the end of the day a good product with a good team behind it always makes the difference.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I just caught up on the whole YT influencer thread. I have not much to add to the discussion, except one thing about what you said about TGV..
> 
> Around the time of NTH being featured was when I first got into watches. I do still watch him from time to time, but purely for entertainment. Anyhoo, he (and John from WatchGauge to a lesser degree) was the one who turned me on to NTH in the first place. I hesitated to get in on the Catalina, simply because I only had a Vostok and a Sea Urchin at that point, so 600-ish dollar (plus taxes) was a pretty tall order. I got in on it on the last day of the preorder period. Before that I checked every other day if the 100 spots were filled, fearing I would miss out. But I enjoyed the hell out of that watch, and out of every NTH I picked up since.
> 
> ...


Stupidly effective.

That may be the best compliment anyone has ever paid me. I mean it. I could literally (well, figuratively) cry.

I may need that tattooed somewhere on me.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> Thanks for the kind words. Seeing peeps post pics and enjoying a new release is one of my favorite parts of my job.
> 
> The no-nonsense case backs on the Subs and 2K1's are a nod to their military tool-watch roots. When I think about the Subs and 2K1's, I see them as a reflection of NTH's more sober nature, as compared to the drunken monkey that was Lew & Huey. They're meant to be "all-business".
> 
> But with other models, like the DevilRay and Tropics, we loosen up a little, and adopt a more "happy hour" sort of attitude about things. I'm sure we'll have other designs in the future, which have some more fun things happening out back.


The Devilray caseback is a true work of art, all those distinct layers are really cool. I've never seen anything like it on another watch. I am definitely liking the old school scuba dude on my new Azores though.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> The Devilray caseback is a true work of art, all those distinct layers are really cool. I've never seen anything like it on another watch. I am definitely liking the old school scuba dude on my new Azores though.


I like it too, but my sentimental favorites will always be the Orthos and Phantom casebacks.










"Every Dog Will Have His Day."

Indeed. It still soothes my soul to this day.










"Fortes Fortuna Juvat"

Fortune favors the bold.


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I don't know about all this YT drama or whatever. If it's playing out there, Facebook, Twitter, or any of those other cesspools, I'll never see it. 

I just ordered a Viton strap for my blue Thresher. Was going back and forth between the blue or black and went with the blue. Usually not a fan of rubber, nylon, or leather but there are a few that I do like so I'll give it a try.

I don't want this to turn into a WTB and I know the rules against it but we're all friends here, right? I'd really like a Santa Fe. I've been checking Watch Recon, Chrono24, etc. No luck yet. If any of you see one, PM me or reply here. I will appreciate it.

I reeeealy like the Azores, too. Not sure how long I'll hold out and what, if any, will be left when I actually pull the trigger. The Azores would fit the motif I have going with my (only) NTH watch, too, even if it's tenuous.


----------



## GP_Photography (Feb 4, 2020)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I just caught up on the whole YT influencer thread. I have not much to add to the discussion, except one thing about what you said about TGV..
> 
> Around the time of NTH being featured was when I first got into watches. I do still watch him from time to time, but purely for entertainment. Anyhoo, he (and John from WatchGauge to a lesser degree) was the one who turned me on to NTH in the first place. I hesitated to get in on the Catalina, simply because I only had a Vostok and a Sea Urchin at that point, so 600-ish dollar (plus taxes) was a pretty tall order. I got in on it on the last day of the preorder period. Before that I checked every other day if the 100 spots were filled, fearing I would miss out. But I enjoyed the hell out of that watch, and out of every NTH I picked up since.
> 
> ...


 Well Said!


----------



## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

I was waffling back and forth between Green or Blue, Date or no Date and decided on this. Very happy with my decision as the date is very unobtrusive and the beautiful brilliant Blue dial that transitions from blue to black, both on the inner and outer ring going to the black bezel. The dual crowns are typical NTH excellence. I like the bracelet, but I think it looks better on the Tropics strap, nice vintage feel to it and it's the perfect length for my 7 1/4" wrist. My NTH collection is growing!


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> First time in 8 weeks I've been able to wear a mechanical... have been forced to wear quartz's due to left shoulder surgery and having to wear a sling for 6 weeks and then gimping around for another two. Just didn't generate enough movement to keep them going.
> 
> Funnily, the old bracelets didn't quite fit the right wrist, a tad tight. I wasn't going to adjust them for such a short period.
> 
> ...


Is it just me or was this designed as a nod to Star Wars?

The hour and minute hands resemble the Venator class destroyers.








Venator-class Star Destroyer/Legends


The Separatists are also on the run. We managed to save most of our troops.""How? It looked like they were rolling right over us.""That's how.""Whoa!Admiral Erel Kersos and Dr. Kornell Divini upon seeing the Resolution The Venator-class Star Destroyer, also known as the Venator-class Destroyer...




starwars.fandom.com




The red lines on the dial with the red circular NTH logo adds a subtle Sith flavor.


----------



## bes-b2 (Jan 16, 2009)

docvail said:


> Check the used market. They're sold out, new, since sometime last year.


I made a WTB post and scored a mint Odin no date in black. It is truly a lovely watch. I am a big fan, from the case design, dial, the lume, drilled lugs, screw bracelet (I am personally a fan of these), nice push button deployment clasp, very good, I like it a lot! Thanks for making it!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> Is it just me or was this designed as a nod to Star Wars?
> 
> The hour and minute hands resemble the Venator class destroyers.
> 
> ...


Just you.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Watch19 (Oct 15, 2016)

Back in rotation!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

Still happy with my first gen Azores


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Saswatch said:


> Is it just me or was this designed as a nod to Star Wars?
> 
> The hour and minute hands resemble the Venator class destroyers.
> 
> ...


I believe the Tikuna was issued to all officers posted to this class destroyer...hence the similar livery..


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Sooooo. I noticed that my Azores seems to be running a bit better than my other NTHs(they're all running well within spec), so I decided to toss it on my timegrapher.

Dial up









Swiss, swiss, ra ra ra!

My one and only Chronometer runs -1spd dial up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Sooooo. I noticed that my Azores seems to be running a bit better than my other NTHs(they're all running well within spec), so I decided to toss it on my timegrapher.
> 
> Dial up
> View attachment 15898956
> ...


bUt thE rOtoR iS loUd!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> bUt thE rOtoR iS loUd!


Here. I made this for you to use when you find it helpful.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I love the case, dial, hands, everything, but the bezel insert is quite dazzling.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I like it too, but my sentimental favorites will always be the Orthos and Phantom casebacks.
> 
> View attachment 15895681
> 
> ...


Saw this 2 days ago, just got off my lazy rear to take agreement pics. Overlook any wear or grime, my watches get worn!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

One of the benefits of being a simpleton like myself is that small details such as this lumed crown can bring a goofy smile to your face


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Mediocre said:


> One of the benefits of being a simpleton like myself is that small details such as this lumed crown can bring a goofy smile to your face
> 
> View attachment 15900003


Wow and looking at that photo it even looks like the Doc has produced a rarity....a bronze Nth....shaddup and take my money 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Saw this 2 days ago, just got off my lazy rear to take agreement pics. Overlook any wear or grime, my watches get worn!
> 
> View attachment 15899511
> 
> View attachment 15899513


That Phantom case back is definitely in the top 3 coolest case backs I've ever seen 👍
I was never particularly taken with the watch though it's perfectly nice. Then I saw it on a bracelet, someone had managed to find some fitting end-links. It looked the absolute _nuts_... I've been looking for a sensibly priced one ever since.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

One of ten. So I'm told.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

One of them Tiburons is about the only Sub that would pry my Nacken ModBlue out of the collection.
I went with the Amphion VtgBlk today. One of 50 if I'm not mistaken&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> That Phantom case back is definitely in the top 3 coolest case backs I've ever seen 👍
> I was never particularly taken with the watch though it's perfectly nice. Then I saw it on a bracelet, someone had managed to find some fitting end-links. It looked the absolute _nuts_... I've been looking for a sensibly priced one ever since.


It was a Cerberus bracelet, if you mean the pics posted by Omegafanboy. The end-links fit, but their shape isn't really a match to the Phantom's lugs.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> It was a Cerberus bracelet, if you mean the pics posted by Omegafanboy. The end-links fit, but their shape isn't really a match to the Phantom's lugs.


Link to the pics? I don't remember seeing this 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

TheBearded said:


> Sooooo. I noticed that my Azores seems to be running a bit better than my other NTHs(they're all running well within spec), so I decided to toss it on my timegrapher.
> 
> Dial up
> View attachment 15898956
> ...


Mine is also super accurate: it's running at -.5 over three days of constant wear. I'm blown away with it overall.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Link to the pics? I don't remember seeing this
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Probably easiest to ask Sam @Omegafanboy to post them than it would be to go searching for them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Mine is also super accurate: it's running at -.5 over three days of constant wear. I'm blown away with it overall.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


True story - whenever anyone posts about the accuracy of their NTH, I feel a strange mix of pride and fear. Proud we delivered something running so well. Afraid someone will read that, then complain that their watch is only running within 8 seconds per day.

Yes, I stress about things before they happen, and which might never happen. Such is the business of managing WIS expectations.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> True story - whenever anyone posts about the accuracy of their NTH, I feel a strange mix of pride and fear. Proud we delivered something running so well. Afraid someone will read that, then complain that there's is only running within 8 seconds per day.
> 
> Yes, I stress about things before they happen, and might never happen. Such is the business of managing WIS expectations.


🙄🤣 oh dear... that did make me laugh 😆


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

"Some guy posted his NTH was running at +/-0 spd, and I bought one because I thought it would be accurate, only to find it running better than half of even NTH's better than movment manufacturer spec. [fume] You should probably just send me a whole, new, free watch before I start roasting you in social media!"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I don't know about all this YT drama or whatever. If it's playing out there, Facebook, Twitter, or any of those other cesspools, I'll never see it.
> 
> I just ordered a Viton strap for my blue Thresher. Was going back and forth between the blue or black and went with the blue. Usually not a fan of rubber, nylon, or leather but there are a few that I do like so I'll give it a try.
> 
> ...


There was some drama recently, but thankfully, it didn't involve me. It was between a YouTuber and another brand.

I'm probably more attuned to it, by virtue of being a brand owner, but also because I'm not just active here on the forums, I also see it in the watch groups on Facebook. Not to make the phenomenon out to be more than it is. But I'm not 100% sure what it is.

My seat of the pants impression is that over the last few years, more guys have started doing reviews, in print or on YouTube. And while many of them create good content, few have built up a large enough audience for a brand to easily rationalize sending them a watch - to keep - for a review. But that's the expectation many of them have, in light of the time and effort they invest.

Some of the reviewers who have built up a larger audience are more brazen. They now expect multiple watches, or watches and cash, or just large sums of cash.

The questions raised are obvious - how can a reviewer be unbiased if they're being given something of value like that? How can anyone argue that these reviews can drive enough sales for the brand to make that expense pay off for the brand, without the data to back that claim up?

Aside from the recent drama that played out, this topic is a recurring theme of discussion, especially in the Facebook groups focused on microbrands, as many of the brands are startups, who can least afford to pay for reviews, and many of the reviewers are likewise new to the game, and thus they can least justify the request.

On occasion, the discussions have gotten pretty contentious. Many of the reviewers have apparently felt personally attacked or offended by brand owners and others who say they shouldn't be compensated for doing a review, no matter how much time or energy they invest, and regardless of any value it has for the brand.

Speaking only for myself, I've occasionally seen people say I'm anti-reviewer, or view them all as bottom-feeders, neither of which is true. I've had a handful of unfortunate experiences, which have led me to develop reviewer policies (and relationships) which are more conducive to my business.

Unlike many startup brand owners, who may feel the exposure is worth the price, I typically don't. Part of it is just basic business ethics - I don't think it's ethical to compensate someone who is supposed to be doing an unbiased review.

But there's also the economic argument - for a more mature brand like mine, one with a large and active following, there are literally only a handful of outlets which are sure to have a large enough impact to justify paying for the exposure. I generally feel that these reviews from smaller players are nice to have, but don't drive enough sales to warrant paying for them, and in some cases, the reviewers stand to gain more from reviewing NTH than NTH stands to gain from them doing the review.

The crowd's opinion is divided. Some agree with me that the reviewers shouldn't be compensated. Others feel the content has value, and therefore the reviewers should be.

However, while the perceived value to the audience may be real, the value to the brands is mostly inferred, but not necessarily real, much less measurable. The net result is that some portion of the audience wants the brands to pay for the content, so it's free for them.

Unfortunately, the solution I see as being most viable is also least likely to gain traction.

I've said the print blogs should offer sponsorship opportunities (permanent ads, as opposed to ads served up by the Google display network) to brands. Those sponsor brands would then get priority over other brands in the blogs' review schedules, but otherwise have no control over the content. The blogs could also create premium content, only visible to paid subscribers.

In addition to getting ad revenue from YouTube, the YouTubers could (and I think should) offer their audience ways to "tip" them, such as creating Patreon or BuyMeACoffee.com accounts. Even if only a portion of the audience tipped them, any audience large enough to warrant asking a brand to pay for reviews would likely be large enough to tip a fair amount.

Asking the audience to pay for content, rather than the brands, and allowing brands to become sponsors, seems more fair and ethical to me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> "Some guy posted his NTH was running at +/-0 spd, and I bought one because I thought it would be accurate, only to find it running better than half of even NTH's better than movment manufacturer spec. [fume] You should probably just send me a whole, new, free watch before I start roasting you in social media!"


You're joking, but some of the messages I've received, and comments I've read, aren't too far off that.

The company I worked for before starting this business had an executive coach on retainer. Second-hand, I got this pearl of wisdom from him:

"All unhappiness in life is caused by unmet expectations, undelivered communication, or some combination of the two."

I wanted to argue that it couldn't be as simple as that, but couldn't think of a single example wherein it wasn't valid.

With WIS, the root cause of problems leans heavily towards the expectations. Specifically, they're often unmet, simply by virtue of the expectations being unrealistic.

Sometimes, very often, it's the brands' fault. Many over-promise, yet under-deliver.

Also very often, it's the unfortunate result of improvements in manufacturing and the law of large numbers. Whatever our tolerances for variation (i.e, our quality standards) happen to be, they're going to be fairly minimal, and a lot of what we produce will either be truly "perfect", in terms of zero variation, or close enough that most would never notice the variation.

If you buy 50 watches, there's a good chance you wouldn't have any reason to complain about any of them. But make 5,000 watches, you'll have some number that are not only not "perfect", the imperfection is something someone will notice, even if it's within your tolerances / standards.

Even if only 1%-2% are less than perfect, and their deviation from perfect is only 1%-2%, or much less, someone will notice, and might complain.

This leads to a phenomenon where many people simply expect perfection in a manufactured product, because they get it so often. But 100% perfection isn't a viable QC standard when you're dealing with machine-made parts, assembled by hand, at almost any price, but certainly not for what we charge.

I also think it's true that the more expensive an item is, or the more expensive it merely seems TO US, the more justified we feel in expecting perfection. Surely it's more reasonable to expect perfection from a $10k Rolex than a $500 micro.

But that understanding isn't equally distributed. Very often, the guy coming up from the <$300 range to buy an NTH is going to be more critical than the guy coming down from the >$1500 range. The relative change in what we're used to spending has an effect on our expectations.

Inevitably, if you sell enough watches, you'll hear or read complaints about things which are well within the brand's standards, but not close enough to perfection for the person complaining. That's why we have the returns policy we do.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

As a rule I watch very little YT content. I might watch it once or twice a week, usually music or watches.
But I'm a lover of online newspapers, and have paid subscriptions to three, and read many more.

Google, FB, and Apple really need to work out the Paid Content Subscription Mode properly. They're extremely greedy and hoover up 90% of the add revenue.
By having a proper paid-content model for all online media, the money will go into good journalism - watches, news, hobbies, movies, any subject or interest under the sun.
Therefore newspapers, magazines, YouTube channels, etc would be paid for properly, and be able to produce good content.

Google, FB, and Apple don't want to do this because they'll lose their unearned, rent keeping approach to 90% of the available advert money, which gives them insane profits.
A subscriber could make one payment a month, which would then by the Paid Content Subscription Model be split up between all the.. subscriptions they wish to have. Paying more, for more subscriptions.
Magazines could have a level of free basic content to attract customers, then get paid for access to the bulk of the in depth content.
Adverts would also be far less obtrusive.

I've come round to this view after years of originally thinking the free for all approach is best. Because it's not free for all. It's all for Google, FB, and Apple.

TLDR - pay properly for content, and you'll get good content. (And keep a lot of good people employed). And break up the Californian hegemony, and rent keeping of the internet.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> There was some drama recently, but thankfully, it didn't involve me. It was between a YouTuber and another brand.
> 
> I'm probably more attuned to it, by virtue of being a brand owner, but also because I'm not just active here on the forums, I also see it in the watch groups on Facebook. Not to make the phenomenon out to be more than it is. But I'm not 100% sure what it is.
> 
> ...


I guess I don't get the distinction between sponsorship = preferential review treatment vs. pay-to-play, purchased content = preferential review treatment. I see it crop up in other industries, too.

In either case, there's monetary input by the subject company of the item up for review, with the expectation that such payment will expedite review, in a timely manner. No, it's not quite as direct, so maybe the inference of direct payment for a review = direct payment of a _favorable_ review isn't quite as strong, but it's still there. Like having a lawyer on retainer, vs. paying as needed.

Conversely, the pressure on the reviewer end of things, would come in the form of a brand basically saying, "Hey, we get that you may have legit complaints about our product, but it really doesn't do us any good with this out in the world, so I'm afraid we are going to have to drop our sponsorship."

Sponsorship to me just seems like paying over time for the same kind of treatment one might expect with cash / gratis watch on a per release basis.

The print model used to be that advertising would be the financial basis for supporting staff, production, and distribution, so that there would be no financial involvement by the subjects of reviews for (supposedly) unbiased, even-handed reviews. Newspapers and magazines have struggled to find a model which can replace this, and most have turned to subscription services to make up for the loss in ad revenue. So once a brand of reviewer get's big enough...



docvail said:


> You're joking, but some of the messages I've received, and comments I've read, aren't too far off that.
> 
> The company I worked for before starting this business had an executive coach on retainer. Second-hand, I got this pearl of wisdom from him:
> 
> ...


I get that. I think there was a thread in Public where someone was complaining about a Christopher Ward watch they received that was running at something like +8spd. (Yes, they had a timegrapher...) And was upset that CWard would not cover an adjustment, return for exchange of a watch checked by their techs before shipping, or full refund. Even though it was running well within the stated accuracy for the movement and per CWard marketing claims.

I honestly think there should be a mandatory 2-year stint in service industry upon graduation from US High Schools... The customer is not always right, and some people are just not going to be happy, every.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Probably easiest to ask Sam @Omegafanboy to post them than it would be to go searching for them.


I will try to grab a picture and post once I can get to the watch.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> Link to the pics? I don't remember seeing this
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Here you go, not the best pictures but it will give you the basics.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> Here you go, not the best pictures but it will give you the basics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pictures! Looks pretty good!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I guess I don't get the distinction between sponsorship = preferential review treatment vs. pay-to-play, purchased content = preferential review treatment. I see it crop up in other industries, too.
> 
> In either case, there's monetary input by the subject company of the item up for review, with the expectation that such payment will expedite review, in a timely manner. No, it's not quite as direct, so maybe the inference of direct payment for a review = direct payment of a _favorable_ review isn't quite as strong, but it's still there. Like having a lawyer on retainer, vs. paying as needed.
> 
> ...


In practice / reality, what I propose would likely be less of a distinction than what we'd consider ideal, but I believe it would, or at least, could be better than the current alternative.

As a basis for comparison, I point to automotive magazines. The guys who do the writing don't seem to hold back in their criticism of any model from any brand, yet that doesn't seem to stop any brand from paying for ads in those magazines.

My ideal scenario would be a blog where the editorial content is created by people who are under no pressure from the people who sell the advertising. Is that realistic?

Well...in most cases, probably not. But in my case, sure. I've never "punished" any reviewer for any criticism of anything we've done. So long as I feel the review content is fair and balanced, I'd have no problem supporting the blog as a paid sponsor, with a permanent ad. I've done that with The Time Bum and Wrist Watch Review.

Even for YouTubers, I'm not always thrilled when one says or shows something I wish they hadn't, and I often think they should give me the courtesy of alerting me before mentioning it (in case it's something that we should have caught in QC, or a mistake they may be making), but again, that's never stopped me from working with anyone.

I think if a sponsor insists on all reviews being criticism free, then the blog should let that brand go as a sponsor. Replace them with another brand, with an owner who sees things as I do.

Ultimately, the bloggers need to put a value on their own credibility with their audience. If a blog had a roster of sponsor brands, and they all had the same attitude I do, then we could logically assume that all the sponsor brands would be confident in the quality of what they produce, or not concerned enough to take note of the criticism.

How likely is my ideal scenario? In the greater scheme, I suppose it is and would be exceedingly rare to find blogs with writers who are that independent and unbiased.

But it's not my job to enforce ethical standards in what passes for "journalism" in this industry. It's my job to make good decisions for my business. Paying for content to be created, but with no control over the content, nor any real expectation of a positive impact on sales, just doesn't seem like a good decision for my business.

If people want better photography, we'll get better pics. We can hire a videographer if need be. At the very least, I can send a review sample to some YouTubers who will send the sample back, rather than keep it. If my refusal to pay a blogger or YouTuber for his time, when that time adds little if anything to my results, makes me persona non grata with them, I can live with that.

If nothing else, it keeps my ethics and my wallet intact.

If a blogger or YouTuber wants my advice, as a business owner, it's to have paid sponsorships, give sponsors priority for scheduling reviews, but keep the content unbiased, create premium content for paid subscribers, and (for YouTubers), set up a Patreon or BuyMeACoffee.com account. Above all - create quality, unbiased content, in order to build your audience to the point you're not concerned with who's paying for your time.

Based on what a knowledgeable source told me about what TGV was getting from YouTube for the Urban Gentry channel, back in 2017-2018, my rough, back-of-the-envelope math suggests a YouTuber with a truly engaged audience can expect to receive about $0.20 per year, per subscriber. Doesn't sound like a lot, but do the math - an audience the size of JOMW (~190k subscribers) might generate $35k-$40k per year in ad revenue. But if just 1 out of 10 subscribers were to "tip" Jody just $3 per year, using BuyMeACoffee.com, that's almost $55k per year (after BMAC takes their 5% commission).

Add the two together - it's $90k-$95k per year. That's not bad for a work-from-home gig.

If instead, Jody just got paid in product (free watches), not by the audience, and the average watch he got could be sold for $300, he'd have to receive ~200 watches to come out ahead (don't forget eBay fees, PayPal fees, etc), getting paid by the brands, versus getting paid by the audience. That's 16-17 reviews per month, which is more than he's currently producing (which appears to be about 13 / month).

I'm not trying to be a jerk to reviewers. If someone is creating value, I want to see them succeed. I just don't feel like their success is required to be funded by me, if I'm not the primary recipient of their value.


----------



## shislam21 (May 24, 2021)

Hey doc,
I'm a new to this forum and thread. The thread's over 350 pages long, so I very likely missed you answering questions. Would you ever be open to doing female endlink oyster bracelets on the NTH sub? Sort of like the Black bay 58. 

I'm asking because the BoR are female endlinks and I think a lot of folks are discovering that the NTH bracelets are actually fairly good fits for the Alpinsts, Seaforths, and Hamilton khaki field 38s (among others that share similar curvature + same lug width).


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> I get that. I think there was a thread in Public where _someone_ was complaining about a Christopher Ward watch they received that was running at something like +8spd. (Yes, they had a timegrapher...) And was upset that CWard would not cover an adjustment, return for exchange of a watch checked by their techs before shipping, or full refund. Even though it was running well within the stated accuracy for the movement and per CWard marketing claims.


There are many on here who I genuinely like, and whose opinions I both respect as being thought-out and knowledgeable (like many of the NTH and WPAC thread regulars). Then there are those who I don't ......... 😐


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I know it is dangerous at only 300M of WR, but I did the unthinkable.....took my NTH into the splash pad with the kids. Harrowing, but it proved itself. I know what you are thinking, but I had to.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

shislam21 said:


> Hey doc,
> I'm a new to this forum and thread. The thread's over 350 pages long, so I very likely missed you answering questions. Would you ever be open to doing female endlink oyster bracelets on the NTH sub? Sort of like the Black bay 58.
> 
> I'm asking because the BoR are female endlinks and I think a lot of folks are discovering that the NTH bracelets are actually fairly good fits for the Alpinsts, Seaforths, and Hamilton khaki field 38s (among others that share similar curvature + same lug width).


Welcome to WUS and Doc's thread (sorry if I'm being rude and welcoming people on your behalf Doc... 🤦‍♂️).

But female end links ?? Really ??
... They're the devils work !! They just look like old hollow end-links, plus don't seem to sit right imho.

I'm just kidding.... It happens here occasionally. Stick around join the crew, it looks like you have some cool watches 🙂


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> There was some drama recently, but thankfully, it didn't involve me. It was between a YouTuber and another brand.
> 
> I'm probably more attuned to it, by virtue of being a brand owner, but also because I'm not just active here on the forums, I also see it in the watch groups on Facebook. Not to make the phenomenon out to be more than it is. But I'm not 100% sure what it is.
> 
> ...


Yeah, when I was researching the Thresher, besides your website and the website you sent me the address of when I asked for "daylight" photos, I watched a five minute or so long video on YouTube that had very good lighting and just showed the watch from many angles. I think it was a retailer and the video was not a review. It provided me exactly what I needed to see. One other YouTube video I watched was some dude that I can't remember. Again, good angles and side by side (size) comparisons. I don't know how he got the watch and I didn't listen to what he said (muted audio) as I just wanted to see the watch. I personally don't care what someone has to say about a watch. I just want to see it. It's my responsibility to come up with my own opinions and decide where to spend my money. I'd prefer to visit a retail store and do that but barring that, a good, well-lit video with no stupid music and no talking is perfect.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shislam21 said:


> Hey doc,
> I'm a new to this forum and thread. The thread's over 350 pages long, so I very likely missed you answering questions. Would you ever be open to doing female endlink oyster bracelets on the NTH sub? Sort of like the Black bay 58.
> 
> I'm asking because the BoR are female endlinks and I think a lot of folks are discovering that the NTH bracelets are actually fairly good fits for the Alpinsts, Seaforths, and Hamilton khaki field 38s (among others that share similar curvature + same lug width).


Nope.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

docvail said:


> As a basis for comparison, I point to automotive magazines. The guys who do the writing don't seem to hold back in their criticism of any model from any brand, yet that doesn't seem to stop any brand from paying for ads in those magazines.


Arguably the most popular automotive magazine was Car & Driver but their bias towards the BMW 3 series is stuff of legends. Pit any car against the 330/335 and you knew how it was going to end.

I agree with all your other points though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> Arguably the most popular automotive magazine was Car & Driver but their bias towards the BMW 3 series is stuff of legends. Pit any car against the 330/335 and you knew how it was going to end.
> 
> I agree with all your other points though.


I used to subscribe to C&D and Road & Track. I do recall the letters to the editor frequently calling out the pro-BMW bias.

But was that a result of some form of sponsorship by BMW, a thinly-veiled pay-to-play scheme, or was there just a pro-BMW culture that prevailed within the editorial staff?

We don't know. We can only speculate.

If, hypothetically, a reviewer pitted an NTH against some comparable alternative, and they chose the alternative as the superior option, I'd be fine with it, so long as their reasoning was given, and seemed valid.

I like to think of NTH watches as the Nissan GT-R in a head-to-head comparison against the usual suspects, like the Porsche 911. The GT-R will smoke the basic 911. If you want a Porsche that can run with the Nissan, you have to step up to the more expensive turbo models, which start around $60k higher than the GT-R.

If you have the money, and want to go fast, but worry you might look like a gold-necklace-bedazzled d-bag driving around in a Corvette or Ferrari, the 911 is a "safe" choice, sort of like a Rolex is a safe choice. It says, "I've got money, but also taste." People will notice a 911 the same way they might notice a Rolex, and make the same sort of assumptions about the owner.

The GTR isn't as flashy, and doesn't cost as much. The interior isn't as posh as the 911's. It's actually kind of low-rent by comparison. It definitely doesn't scream "luxury" the way the 911's interior does.

If one of your goals is to be noticed by the fairer sex, get the Porsche, even a basic model, unless you're into the sort of 20-something Asian girls that get paid to appear at the SEMA show. The GT-R is more "racer-boy" than "plastic surgeon". Anyone who doesn't know much about cars would never guess what a GT-R costs (about $115k).

But the GT-R will absolutely terrorize most 911's out on the road or around a track. It's actually an easier car to drive fast than the 911's. If your goal is to go fast, and you're more interested in terrorizing 911's than getting noticed for driving a "nice" car, get the GT-R.

Porsches are a dime a dozen where I live. Personally, I like the idea of terrorizing drivers of more expensive 911's, and thus I prefer the GT-R. I don't care what anyone thinks about me enough to make me want a Porsche.

Kind of like an NTH that runs as well as a "superlative chronometer", the GT-R offers a lot of performance at the price.

But, then again, if pure performance for the price is the only thing that matters to you, go buy a new C8 Corvette (if you can find one for sale). Hard to argue with it, at half the price of the GT-R, just like you can probably find most of what an NTH offers for a good bit less.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shislam21 said:


> Hey doc,
> I'm a new to this forum and thread. The thread's over 350 pages long, so I very likely missed you answering questions. Would you ever be open to doing female endlink oyster bracelets on the NTH sub? Sort of like the Black bay 58.
> 
> I'm asking because the BoR are female endlinks and I think a lot of folks are discovering that the NTH bracelets are actually fairly good fits for the Alpinsts, Seaforths, and Hamilton khaki field 38s (among others that share similar curvature + same lug width).





catsteeth said:


> Welcome to WUS and Doc's thread (sorry if I'm being rude and welcoming people on your behalf Doc... 🤦‍♂️).
> 
> But female end links ?? Really ??
> ... They're the devils work !! They just look like old hollow end-links, plus don't seem to sit right imho.
> ...





docvail said:


> Nope.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


It's a question / request that comes up occasionally. Here's the short version of my take:

1. Female end-links are not objectively "better" than male end-links. If there was a clear advantage, I'd know it, and be using them/

2. For every guy who prefers female end-links, there's a guy who prefers male end-links.

3. Getting good alignment of the lug holes and the end-link is easier with male end-links, which helps make assembly easier (and re-assembly, if you remove your bracelet). So all other things being equal, my vendor prefers it when we use the male end-link. Doing things the way my vendor likes has generally served me and this business well. When I do things they don't like, the results are mixed.

4. Even though it's extremely rare, I've had guys email to ask if we just sell the end-links, because they somehow lost the female end-links to one of our bracelets, or the guy they bought the watch from lost them. No, we don't sell them, nor am I interested in ordering 50 extra pairs of end-links to offer for sale to the one in 500 guys who misplaces theirs. That's not a problem with the male end-link, which doesn't detach from the rest of the bracelet when you remove the spring bar.

5. I personally like the male end-link better on an oyster bracelet. I think it looks better. Sometimes I do things the way I like them, because why wouldn't I?

6. It's easier to get some definition of the center-section of an oyster's end-link when it's male than it is when it's female. I think that adds a welcome touch of panache to the overall package.

7. The most common complaint I hear about male end-links is that they extend the lug-length of the case. Our lugs and end-links curve downward, largely, if not completely offsetting the supposed horizontal lengthening of the case. If your wrist is so small that the end-links are hanging off the sides, with daylight showing underneath, buy a watch with a shorter lug length, or wear the watch on a strap.

Honestly, while I respect people's personal opinions and preferences on the matter, that's all they are - personal, opinions, and preferences. It's really no different than someone suggesting the watch should be 1mm-2mm larger or smaller. If I thought it would help sales, enough to offset the higher PITA factor, I might consider it. But as it is, I'm not remotely convinced it would help sales, nor am I interested in adding another P to my A.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ok, so yeah. These are a PITA on the subs. But damn they look good and are comfortable as hell.

Did I hear y'all say curved spring bars helped?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shislam21 said:


> Hey doc,
> I'm a new to this forum and thread. The thread's over 350 pages long, so I very likely missed you answering questions. Would you ever be open to doing female endlink oyster bracelets on the NTH sub? Sort of like the Black bay 58.
> 
> I'm asking because the BoR are female endlinks and I think a lot of folks are discovering that the NTH bracelets are actually fairly good fits for the Alpinsts, Seaforths, and Hamilton khaki field 38s (among others that share similar curvature + same lug width).


PS - also, welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum, and the NTH thread. Feel free to hang around and ask any questions you want. Nobody is going to shout you down here.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Ok, so yeah. These are a PITA on the subs. But damn they look good and are comfortable as hell.
> 
> Did I hear y'all say curved spring bars helped?


Someone said curved spring bars. Not me.

My two successes mounting those straps came by way of sheer determination, smart application of leverage, and brute force.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Getting back to the sponsoring a blog idea... Don't want to harp on it, but it's been on my mind lately, given the recent dust-up...

Let's just say a big blog, like Hodinkee, or ABTW was willing to sell ad space directly to brands. They have huge audiences. So long as the ad prices were reasonable, and the ROI high enough, I can't imagine they wouldn't have a long line of brands willing to pony up.

In that scenario, what's a brand going to say if they don't like the review of their latest model? Threaten to pull the ad? Screw it. Pull it. Another brand will happily take that space, and the preferential scheduling when it comes time to do a review.

That's how I'd run things, if I ran the blogs.

Easy to say, and easy to do, when you're the size of Hodinkee or ABTW. What about the smaller outlets? Meh, I imagine they'd charge less for the ad space, based on smaller audience size.

There are hundreds of microbrands, dozens of Chinese factory brands, and even some of the really big brands have taken notice of the smaller blogs. If a blogsite was getting 50k hits per month (about what the TimeBum gets), how hard would it be for them to sell 10-20 ads to as many brands at $20-$25 / month? That's $200-$500 per month, or $2400-$6000 per year.

I'd pay $240-$300 per year to sponsor the blog, if I knew their reviews were unbiased, and my brand got priority scheduling when I asked for a review of a new release. If I would, I know other brands would.

And if one of the 10-20 sponsor brands demands that the reviews are nothing but high praise, or else they're pulling the ad, screw 'em, chuck 'em, and replace 'em with another brand. Startup micros are a dime a dozen.

Again, if the part-time blogger doing 2-3 reviews per month is arguing to me that he's spending 6 hours per review (and I doubt many are investing that much time), doing writing, editing, and photography, and his time is valuable, then sell some ad space directly to brands, instead of accepting the meager pittance you get from the Google display ad network. Get a few thou a year coming in, so you can stop crying poor.

That takes care of the print blogs. The YouTube guys will have to be more creative. But if all the guys who say they value those video reviews are telling the truth, I can't believe a YouTuber with a decent size audience couldn't squeeze a similar amount out of them, in the aggregate.

Bruce Williams has 80k subscribers. If only 10% tipped him just $3 per year, that's $24k.

There's only enough room in my pocket for my hands. Everyone else needs to keep theirs out.


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Turns out my turquoise Isofrane matches the BGW9 almost perfectly. It also matches the word 'Thresher' on the dial very well. Gotta get the Iso worn during the summer months because it'll look silly come winter.


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

Deleted unrelated post


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## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

docvail said:


> PS - also, welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum, and the NTH thread. Feel free to hang around and ask any questions you want. Nobody is going to shout you down here.


He has a question about jubilee bracelets.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

househalfman said:


> He has a question about jubilee bracelets.


And bronze cases ....


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> And bronze cases ....


And GMTs


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## shislam21 (May 24, 2021)

catsteeth said:


> Welcome to WUS and Doc's thread (sorry if I'm being rude and welcoming people on your behalf Doc... ?‍♂).
> ...
> I'm just kidding.... It happens here occasionally. Stick around join the crew, it looks like you have some cool watches ?





docvail said:


> PS - also, welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum, and the NTH thread. Feel free to hang around and ask any questions you want. Nobody is going to shout you down here.


Thanks for the welcome!



docvail said:


> It's a question / request that comes up occasionally. Here's the short version of my take:
> 
> ....
> 
> Honestly, while I respect people's personal opinions and preferences on the matter, that's all they are - personal, opinions, and preferences. It's really no different than someone suggesting the watch should be 1mm-2mm larger or smaller. If I thought it would help sales, enough to offset the higher PITA factor, I might consider it. But as it is, I'm not remotely convinced it would help sales, nor am I interested in adding another P to my A.


Fair enough. Adequately addressed. I was expecting a preference related response but hadn't considered that there'd be that much of a logistical angle.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> And GMTs


And 46mm titanium chronographs running T100 tritium lume

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> And 46mm titanium chronographs running T100 tritium lume
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


And the particular shade of blue....


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> And the particular shade of blue....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You guys are all just a bunch of turds in the punchbowl, aintcha?

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Taking my Dog into the veterinary ophthalmologist for his third eye surgery, bright and early today...









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tikuna Tuesday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Tikuna Tuesday
> View attachment 15902282
> View attachment 15902283
> 
> ...


I thought we settled on Amphikuna Tikummando for that one, no?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I thought we settled on Amphikuna Tikummado for that one, no?


Tomato....Tikuna...whatev

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Taking my Dog into the veterinary ophthalmologist for his third eye surgery, bright and early today...
> View attachment 15902113
> 
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Good luck, man.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Yes, I stress about things before they happen, and which might never happen. .


I'm a lawyer. All good ones are this way. It's kind of a curse.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> I'm a lawyer. All good ones are this way. It's kind of a curse.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So is a slow metabolism.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Good luck, man.


All good. He's doing fine.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> So is a slow metabolism.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Amen to that brother.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> You guys are all just a bunch of turds in the punchbowl, aintcha?
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Reminds me of.... "Two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year"....

*I went to the same school as those guys. Years later of course.
(The Floyd)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So... the dog has Trichiasis.









Trichiasis in Dogs - Symptoms, Causes, Diagnosis, Treatment, Recovery, Management, Cost


Trichiasis is simply the act of your dog’s eyelashes or facial hair growing inward towards his eye rather than the typical up and outward direction that eyelashes and hair should grow.



wagwalking.com




.

Short version - he's got eyelashes on his inner eyelid, growing in towards the eye.

Technically, he's not "our" dog, yet. We couldn't adopt him right away, because of the condition. So we've been fostering him since September, until all the eye stuff is sorted out. Apparently some charitable foundation is picking up the bill for all this, and when it's done, we can do the formal adoption.

They operated on him at least once, maybe twice, before we got him. We took him back for another surgery a couple months ago, and today SHOULD be the last one, hopefully.

The ophthalmologist says that although he has some scar tissue on his cornea (kinda looks like a cataract), from when someone removed an ulcer (caused by the eyelashes), there's nothing wrong with his eyesight. We were sure there was, because he's a total klutz. Always bumping into $hlt, and overlooking stuff that's right in front of him. Apparently he's just an awkward idiot.

All the same, he's a good pooch. Here's a pic of him helping to clean up the neighborhood while we were out on a walk:










Here's another of him, after he helped clean up the house, whilst my wife was out...










Apparently my mother-in-law wore those shoes to our wedding. I guess my wife was planning to wear them, despite being not at all sexy (apparently my taste in ladies footwear matters not).

Here's a pic of my wife's reaction...










He also tore up my son's $80 Kanye hat.

That's what my son gets for spending $80 on a hat, I guess.

This is why I keep my shoes in the closet., not under the bed, or wherever he can get to them. I've made special trips back to the bedroom, just to make sure my closet door was shut. The one time I let my guard down and left my shoes out, he was _this_ close to tearing up my Keen sandals (the day before our vacation in Jamaica), but I caught him just as he was destroying the little plastic doo-dad used to tighten them.

Actually, he's kind of an a-hole.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Great, now I have that stuck in my head. Grinning like an imbicile to boot with those silly lyrics..


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Actually, he's kind of an a-hole.


Sounds like a perfect fit!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Rescue pups are the best!! Lil guy sitting beside me ate the insole out of my Rockport loafers. I just took it as God telling me I didn't need loafers and I needed the dog


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I've had a long string of rescues. After the last one passed, my wife told me she didn't want another dog. That lasted about a month, until I returned from a trip and she informed me that the house was too empty without one.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Reminds me of.... "Two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year"....
> 
> *I went to the same school as those guys. Years later of course.
> (The Floyd)


My old boss' wife was a part of the childrens choir for Another Brick In the Wall. Was also one of the kids in the meat grinder scene of the video.

She grew up to ride with Hells Angels London before moving across the pond.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


>


It was $80.

Honestly, I was happy. It wasn't my money. It was his. Where does a 15 year old get off spending $80 on a hat, because "Kanye"?

The dog taught him a better lesson in thrift than I could ever teach him.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trolls gonna troll.

I look at Instagram maybe twice a week. I might post once a month. All the posts tonthe NTH profile are from my marketing team, and most of those are just reposting customers' pics.

Seriously, don't use IG to request support, if you need it. It could be days, maybe longer before anyone sees your message.

Anyhoo... I noticed this guy commenting something to the effect of "lousy service" under some of our recent posts.

No idea who he is or what his problem may be.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Disgruntled lifeguard?










Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> My old boss' wife was a part of the childrens choir for Another Brick In the Wall. Was also one of the kids in the meat grinder scene of the video.
> 
> She grew up to ride with Hells Angels London before moving across the pond.


Well that's just about the coolest tune, coolest video, coolest whole damn album that's it's possible to have.

Famously, and somewhat humorously, the kids sing in pure Cockney. The school they chose near the studio, just happened to be bang in the East End of London. At the time very working class.

It's a modern classic. I don't know as Americans whether you'd notice it, but it goes something like this... (From memory)..

"We dun't need no'w edu'casion. We dun't need no'w Fawt con'strol.
Teacha' leav' em kids alown".....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of accents, anyone here been watching "Mare of Eastown" on HBO?

It's supposedly set in lower Delaware County, or "Delco" for short, outside Philadelphia. I grew up in central Delco, and now live in upper Delco. 

I heard the costume designers visited some of our local convenience stores (Wawa's) to see how people here dress.

I know they filmed some of the scenes in lower Delco, but many in other parts of the state. Some of things said on the show regarding the local geography are preposterous.

All that said, it's a decent show, but I don't think any of the actors got the Delco accent right. My wife thinks some of them got some of it, but mostly they all missed.

If you've ever heard someone with a distinct Delco accent, it's very noticeable, somewhat like the South Boston accent.

Props to Kate Winslet and Guy Pearce for at least not sounding British or Australian.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Speaking of accents, anyone here been watching "Mare of Eastown" on HBO?
> 
> It's supposedly set in lower Delaware County, or "Delco" for short, outside Philadelphia. I grew up in central Delco, and now live in upper Delco.
> 
> ...


Watched the first show. Had heard an interview with the actress playing Winslet's character's mom, which specifically dealt with the accent, but was disappointed to hear barely any noticeable accents.

People regularly slaughter a Boston accent, forget about a harsh Maine accent...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> It was $80.
> 
> Honestly, I was happy. It wasn't my money. It was his. Where does a 15 year old get off spending $80 on a hat, because "Kanye"?
> 
> The dog taught him a better lesson in thrift than I could ever teach him.


Hmmm...

Kid wasting his money on overly expensive product... That he definitely doesn't need another of' as he already loads. 
One he wears for sport, one to go diving, one to fly in, one to look smart in....

🤔🙄

.... 😉


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

th


docvail said:


> Speaking of accents, anyone here been watching "Mare of Eastown" on HBO?
> 
> It's supposedly set in lower Delaware County, or "Delco" for short, outside Philadelphia. I grew up in central Delco, and now live in upper Delco.
> 
> ...


thoroughly enjoying that show, but I would not know a Delco accent if it bit me in the arse...


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

1 x Antilles dark rum with date on its way courtesy of WatchGecko...... it might even arrive on Friday!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Getting these straps on has gotten easier with practice.









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> Speaking of accents, anyone here been watching "Mare of Eastown" on HBO?
> 
> It's supposedly set in lower Delaware County, or "Delco" for short, outside Philadelphia. I grew up in central Delco, and now live in upper Delco.
> 
> ...


Costume designers don't really design costumes anymore. They go to "costume companies." My oldest daughter works for one in Toronto that is about 60,000 square feet. There are a number of costumers in Toronto as it is a major TV and movie-making region. She works with wardrobe departments pulling the outfits based on a list that the film company gives her, and she makes certain everything is appropriate for the era, location, and role, right down to the appropriate buttons on their outfits. My daughter can tell you the exact year that shirts buttons went from shell to plastic and from two hole buttons to four hole buttons with parallel stitches to cross stitching. She's responsible for getting everything right from head to toe. She has her counterparts from other costume houses in Canada and the USA contacting her to authenticate costumes when they have a question.

She's also a certified gem and watch appraiser, and has worked in that capacity for major auction houses. She will be appraising my watch and western boot collections and putting them up for sale after I pass.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> th
> 
> thoroughly enjoying that show, but I would not know a Delco accent if it bit me in the arse...


You'd know it was different, if you heard a pronounced one, believe me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Boots said:


> Costume designers don't really design costumes anymore. They go to "costume companies." My oldest daughter works for one in Toronto that is about 60,000 square feet. There are a number of costumers in Toronto as it is a major TV and movie-making region. She works with wardrobe departments pulling the outfits based on a list that the film company gives her, and she makes certain everything is appropriate for the era, location, and role, right down to the appropriate buttons on their outfits. My daughter can tell you the exact year that shirts buttons went from shell to plastic and from two hole buttons to four hole buttons with parallel stitches to cross stitching. She's responsible for getting everything right from head to toe. She has her counterparts from other costume houses in Canada and the USA contacting her to authenticate costumes when they have a question.
> 
> She's also a certified gem and watch appraiser, and has worked in that capacity for major auction houses. She will be appraising my watch and western boot collections and putting them up for sale after I pass.


My personal pet peeve is when they get US Army uniforms wrong. It's not just the "correctness" of the uniform, but also how different units would wear certain items.

When I was with the Rangers, getting the perfect flop out of your beret, or just the right amount of crumple in your cap was something that took more than just practice.

We'd take a brand new beret, cut the cardboard piece on the inside, and literally (not figuratively) spend hours carefully shaving the outer shell with a disposable razor, to get rid of all the fluffiness in the felt.

To get the flop right, put the beret on, then bend the cardboard and the patch on the front down/forward, and tug the rest of it down over the side of our head. If you got the beret in just the right size, and shaved it just right, it would just cover the top of your ear. If it partially covered your eyebrow, or even your eye, even better. That was way cool.

Yes, we were a bunch of ponces when it came to our headgear.

Not all of us. One of my favorite people was a sergeant who just couldn't be bothered. He'd plop a beret on his head with no modification whatsoever, and walk around looking like a reject from a pastry kitchen.

As for the brimmed caps we'd wear in the field - bend the brim to get just the right arch in it, pull it down over your forehead, then crimp the sides, so that the top was slightly concave. If you went too far, you'd look like you had a candy dish on your head, which was no good.

One of the Samoan Ranger Instructors took an old field cap, cut the top off of it, and turned it into a sun-visor. It was strictly not within regulations, but no one was brave enough to tell him to get rid of it. The one and only time I heard of someone pissing this guy off, the poor bastard ended up on his back, with a pair of thumbs slowly pushing his eyeballs back into his skull.

Don't even get me started on how to achieve the perfect degree of blousing out of a pair of trousers tucked into jungle boots. The technique was equally preposterous.

Fair to say the toughest men I've ever known often put a surprising amount of care into looking like they didn't care at all.

This is pretty close to perfect. Could maybe use a little more cut out of the front, and a little more shaved off the outer shell:










This is abominable. Just a hot mess:










This guy took things too far, but he's Special Forces, and could probably kill 10 men with a pencil and some piano wire, so I'm not about to tell him:










Perfect:










Vomit:


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> My personal pet peeve is when they get US Army uniforms wrong. It's not just the "correctness" of the uniform, but also how different units would wear certain items.
> 
> When I was with the Rangers, getting the perfect flop out of your beret, or just the right amount of crumple in your cap was something that took more than just practice.
> 
> ...


That's the type of thing that drives my daughter crazy after she's researched such things, passes them on to wardrobe, and they still get it wrong. I get crazy when they get the wrong style western hat wrong for the region in terms of the style of the hat, its brim, and especially the creases because are reasons for the type of hat, its size and crease. The wrong style of boots (there were no J or X toe boots), the wrong style of holster as the typical fast draw drop leg holster is a purely Hollywood invention. I cringe when I see a Winchester '94 in a 1870s Era movie. Even the manner of gun usage, wrong way of wearing handguns in modern movies drives me nuts. Grew up shooting, still do.

My daughter and I have long conversations about this stuff.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> You'd know it was different, if you heard a pronounced one, believe me.


I know what you mean. Being a native Baltimorean I have basically never heard a good version of the accent from anyone not from around these parts. Most actors don't even try. (Like our brothers and sisters in Philly we like a glass of cold wudder when we are thirsty.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

Ike2 said:


> I know what you mean. Being a native Baltimorean I have basically never heard a good version of the accent from anyone not from around these parts. Most actors don't even try. (Like our brothers and sisters in Philly we like a glass of cold wudder when we are thirsty.)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 And here on Long Island, they ask for warter.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Round here its a glass of werter.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mr.Boots said:


> And here on Long Island, they ask for warter.


Where in LI are you? I grew up in Hempstead, close to Garden City loved going to HofstraUniversityto watch the Jets practice, then lived in Astoria and then moved closer to work in Huntington Station before settling down in TX lol. But I still catch myself saying cough-fee. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

kpjimmy said:


> Where in LI are you? I grew up in Hempstead, close to Garden City loved going to HofstraUniversityto watch the Jets practice, then lived in Astoria and then moved closer to work in Huntington Station before settling down in TX lol. But I still catch myself saying cough-fee.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Stony Brook by the hospital. My father worked at Walt Whitman HS. I taught my first year at St. Hughs on NY ave and Pulaski. I also taught two years in Uniondale at Lawrence Road Jr. High. I'm a CW Post grad and post grad degrees, along with grad degrees from Stony Brook and Dowling. Small world.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mr.Boots said:


> Stony Brook by the hospital. My father worked at Walt Whitman HS. I taught my first year at St. Hughs on NY ave and Pulaski. I also taught two years in Uniondale at Lawrence Road Jr. High. I'm a CW Post grad and post grad degrees, along with grad degrees from Stony Brook and Dowling. Small world.


Awesome! My Lil brother graduated from Stony Brook. Now is a scientist at Este Lauder. I remember Uniondale HS, rival schools 

Went to Adelphi, didn't like it and went to the AF and after a short stint went back to get my marketing degree. Kinda use it now in the Financial world I'm in here in TX.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Ahh, accents.

Hugely entertained myself during the lockdown by binge watching Peaky Blinders. Have to admit that the actors did a great job of the Birmingham accent. If you Wikipedia them, you’ll see they’re all either a bit foreign or very posh, so (floppy) hats off to them.

But wot do I know about brummie accents, seeing as I’m from Manchester.

Ooooo, digression. There was a time when I could accurately tell which part of Manchester a person grew up in by nuances in their manc accent. Comes from a youth working Saturdays on an open market stall. Years later, in a bar somewhere in the dark depths of the Zürich red light district, I happened to be chatting to an expat that I vaguely knew. He opened his gob, and within a sentence or two I said “Duckinfield” and he almost dropped his beer.

I said almost, ‘cos no Manc has ever dropped a beer unless clubbed from behind. Which admittedly happens from time to time in a Manc pub.

Anyways, it’s about time HBO or Netflix coughs up the money for a blockbuster series based on Newfoundland. Would love to hear the trainwreck as the a bunch of RADA trained posh lovies mangle the newfie accent.

Ric, innit.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ric Capucho said:


> Ahh, accents.
> 
> Anyways, it's about time HBO or Netflix coughs up the money for a blockbuster series based on Newfoundland. Would love to hear the trainwreck as the a bunch of RADA trained posh lovies mangle the newfie accent.
> 
> Ric, innit.


In the small world category, I lived in St John's when I was a kid.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Where in LI are you? I grew up in Hempstead, close to Garden City loved going to HofstraUniversityto watch the Jets practice, then lived in Astoria and then moved closer to work in Huntington Station before settling down in TX lol. But I still catch myself saying cough-fee.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Cripes !! Are you sure you live in the States ?? Actually, hold on do I actually live in the UK ?? What's going on !!

I live in the Garden City, Huntington is just up the road, and H_a_mpstead is just down it 🤯


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ike2 said:


> I know what you mean. Being a native Baltimorean I have basically never heard a good version of the accent from anyone not from around these parts. Most actors don't even try. (Like our brothers and sisters in Philly we like a glass of cold wudder when we are thirsty.)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Mr.Boots said:


> And here on Long Island, they ask for warter.





nonfatproduct said:


> Round here its a glass of werter.


In the UK we have the imported Australian Question Intonation where every statement ends with a raised tone, so that everything sounds like a question. It's a very submissive way of talking. No definite statements, everything is said as a question so as not to offend. It's a sad snowflakish manner of speaking.

As well as that, the AQI. The letter T has totally disappeared from the vocabulary of anyone under 30. Even the younger newsreaders on the BBC which used to be the last bastion of Received Pronunciation (Queens English).

So instead of wa_t_er, it's w_a_'er. Or instead of bu_tt_er, it's b_u_'er.

I loath it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ric Capucho said:


> Ahh, accents.
> 
> Hugely entertained myself during the lockdown by binge watching Peaky Blinders. Have to admit that the actors did a great job of the Birmingham accent. If you Wikipedia them, you'll see they're all either a bit foreign or very posh, so (floppy) hats off to them.
> 
> ...


Lol..
I did a year up in the N East. Newcastle and Sunderland. 15 miles apart but all one conurbation.
Everybody just thinks it's all Geordie up there, but it's not. No sir'ee.
In Sunderland they have a very slightly softer tone, for lack of a better description. You have to have lived there to be able to notice it.

So nowadays when I meet anybody from Sunderland I always ask if they're a Mackem, which is a Sunderland person. As opposed to a Geordie which is a Newcastle person.
Because I'm obviously a southerner I usually get the same results as you, total astonishment.. ?


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> In the small world category, I lived in St John's when I was a kid.


Sorry, I don't understand your accent.

Ric


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Lol..
> I did a year up in the N East. Newcastle and Sunderland. 15 miles apart but all one conurbation.
> Everybody just thinks it's all Geordie up there, but it's not. No sir'ee.
> In Sunderland they have a very slightly softer tone, for lack of a better description. You have to have lived there to be able to notice it.
> ...


That's the big difference between Geordies and yer Manc. The Geordies club yer from the front.

Gives 'em time to put their beers down.

Ric


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

catsteeth said:


> In the UK we have the imported Australian Question Intonation where every statement ends with a raised tone, so that everything sounds like a question. It's a very submissive way of talking. No definite statements, everything is said as a question so as not to offend. It's a sad snowflakish manner of speaking.
> 
> As well as that, the AQI. The letter T has totally disappeared from the vocabulary of anyone under 30. Even the younger newsreaders on the BBC which used to be the last bastion of Received Pronunciation (Queens English).
> 
> ...


It's funny - also in the States the millenials have dropped their Ts in the last decade. I first noticed it when my kid was playing soccer and the parents next to me were cheering on their son Martin. Except it was "go Mar-in". What the hell? And now things are never important, they are impor-ant.

Very damn annoying.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ah, accents.

Understanding the English (I presume he was English) fellow working the ticket booth at crowded (and quite loud) Paddington Station tell me we had to go to "West Brompton" from behind a thick pane of glass was only slightly easier than understanding the New Yorker with a speech impediment trying to tell me (also from behind a thick pane) to take the Throgs Neck Bridge when I missed my exit on the Jersey Turnpike (as I was driving to visit my mother's family, in Nassau County, Long Island).

I could have sworn the New Yorker told me to take the Frog's Heck, or something equally improbable, before I read the signs over the highway.

The Londoner? I got "Best Harumph", and "West Pom-pom", before he pulled out a map and pointed to it with a "now go away, you silly sod" look on his face.

I swear he looked exactly like the curly-haired twin sergeant in "Hot Fuzz".










"Nobody tells me nut-in'."

Understanding my father-in-law is no small task either. He speaks in a low (as in, barely within the range of human hearing) baritone, with an accent that's a mix of Pennsylvania Dutch and straight-up country hick.

They don't "wash" anything. Instead, they "worsh" it. Their plural of "you" is "yins". They're two hours away by car, two centuries away by dialect.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

catsteeth said:


> Cripes !! Are you sure you live in the States ?? Actually, hold on do I actually live in the UK ?? What's going on !!
> 
> I live in the Garden City, Huntington is just up the road, and H_a_mpstead is just down it 🤯


I've got a hunch that many places here on the East Coast of the USA were named after places in the UK.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

Ike2 said:


> It's funny - also in the States the millenials have dropped their Ts in the last decade. I first noticed it when my kid was playing soccer and the parents next to me were cheering on their son Martin. Except it was "go Mar-in". What the hell? And now things are never important, they are impor-ant.
> 
> Very damn annoying.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My youngest daughter and her friends are millennials. I've heard the guys drop the Ts, but the most annoying thing to me is many of the woman have adopted the Kartrashian habit of ending sentence with a low growling sound that just grates. That and singing words for emphasis, "It's aaahhmaaaazzingggg!" because they apparently have a limited vocabulary.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> Ahh, accents.
> 
> Hugely entertained myself during the lockdown by binge watching Peaky Blinders. Have to admit that the actors did a great job of the Birmingham accent. If you Wikipedia them, you'll see they're all either a bit foreign or very posh, so (floppy) hats off to them.
> 
> ...


We also binge watched Peaky Blinders. It took most of the first season to decipher the accent, but then we were fine. They've just finished filming season 6. Can't wait until it hits Acorn or BritBox. I love UK procedurals because they are more intricate plot-wise than American procedurals. Loved Masterpiece Theatre's Lewis, hoping they do a Hathaway series the way they did Lewis after Morse.

Have enjoyed lighter stuff like New Tricks. Recently watched a short procedural series set in Manchester. Forget the name of it, but we did hear a different accent from the London shows. Manchester seemed to be a pretty tough city. The Welsh accent was a tough one to get used to. David Tennant's Scottish accent and whatever accent he was using in Broadchurch was more difficult than in Doctor Who. Then there is the Aussie accent in Doctor, Doctor, and the NZ accent in other shows. It's been quite an education.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ric Capucho said:


> Sorry, I don't understand your accent.
> 
> Ric


True story: When my dad retired we moved to Western North Carolina. Far from humanity, and deep into Appalachia, which according some sources, still speak olde English.

Years later I went back for a visit and took my wife, who was raised in the Pacific NW of the US. Saw the father of a friend and had a 30 minute discussion. Afterwards my wife told me that she didn't understand him. Not part of it. ALL of it. Couldn't understand a single word.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The band is very nice. Like all of the other - and I want to stress, I mean all of them - OE offerings, it's too short for me and my 8"+ wrist. This is a problem I've had since at least high school. Any "sport" watch I got had to have the original strap replaced with a smelly Velcro strap or similar before I left the store.

On the NTH strap, I can use the second tang hole very comfortably. The third hole is obviously tighter but still comfortable.



















The simple fact is, due to my wrist size, there are very, very, very few leather and rubber watch bands that work for me. 120/90mm or 130/80mm tend to work okay. These are not common sizes. Even 5-ring Zulus come up short. That's why I prefer bracelets and pay close attention to watches that come with a bracelet as an original accessory. Fortunately, the Thresher and other NTH watches come with a very nice bracelet.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Had a roommate from Lon-guyland, once...

So this one time, we are visiting Wales, stop into a Pub in Cardiff. Note: I am pasty white, of Irish heritage, and don't go out of my way to "dress American," especially when traveling. I walk up to the bar to order food and the Publican says... something to me. "Uh, sorry mate, I don't speak Welsh..." So he flips to another language, which was only vaguely familiar... and I have to say, "Actually, I'm American, truly hard of hearing, and really, I am sorry, but could you repeat that a bit slower...?" It got a laugh, we got some food - all good. 

Same trip, while enjoying a pint in London, and watching football (soccer...) someone sits at the bar next to me and asks who is winning, "Um... the guys in the burgundy shorts with white shirts." He moved elsewhere in the pub. That day, I also grabbed a drink in a goth pub of all things, and while there were moody youngsters in black clothes and makeup at tables, staring into laptop screens, there was also a match playing on the big TV, and club supporters of different teams, singing songs of support and derision at each other. Very surreal, and the fans weren't letting a goth makeover of the local pub get them down...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Here's the Thresher on the Watch Gecko tropic strap. I think it's 135/80mm. It's not a bad one. I think the holes are spaced oddly, at least for the watches I tried it on and my wrist. Has an odor to it, not bad at all but some like to point these type of things out.



















I would prefer that the buckle doesn't end up directly under my wrist. 90mm on the buckle side is usually sufficient to accomplish this.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Had a roommate from Lon-guyland, once...
> 
> So this one time, we are visiting Wales, stop into a Pub in Cardiff. Note: I am pasty white, of Irish heritage, and don't go out of my way to "dress American," especially when traveling. I walk up to the bar to order food and the Publican says... something to me. "Uh, sorry mate, I don't speak Welsh..." So he flips to another language, which was only vaguely familiar... and I have to say, "Actually, I'm American, truly hard of hearing, and really, I am sorry, but could you repeat that a bit slower...?" It got a laugh, we got some food - all good.
> 
> Same trip, while enjoying a pint in London, and watching football (soccer...) someone sits at the bar next to me and asks who is winning, "Um... the guys in the burgundy shorts with white shirts." He moved elsewhere in the pub. That day, I also grabbed a drink in a goth pub of all things, and while there were moody youngsters in black clothes and makeup at tables, staring into laptop screens, there was also a match playing on the big TV, and club supporters of different teams, singing songs of support and derision at each other. Very surreal, and the fans weren't letting a goth makeover of the local pub get them down...


There's about three people in Cardiff who can speak welsh. The main asteroid belt of welsh speakers is oop north clustered around Anglesy.

There's lovely.

Ric

p.s. This thread is always at its best when we're not talkimg about bloody watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Did I mention prices are going up on the next release of DevilRays?

Last few pieces left are in S. Korea, at IntoWatch.

Email [email protected] if you need help ordering.









인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I wouldn't mind a DevilRay. I'm really trying to hold out for a Santa Fe to pop up, though. Or maybe a new Azores is in the future. Or maybe I'll get a Scorpene.


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> Understanding my father-in-law is no small task either. He speaks in a low (as in, barely within the range of human hearing) baritone, with an accent that's a mix of Pennsylvania Dutch and straight-up country hick.
> 
> They don't "wash" anything. Instead, they "worsh" it. Their plural of "you" is "yins". They're two hours away by car, two centuries away by dialect.


This cracks me up. My former spouse's family is mostly from southern York County, PA, about 2 hours west of Chris. I wonder if it's the same area as his father-in-law. I'd always wondered where the "wutter" they offered me to drink came from, but I guess it's Philly/Baltimore. And then you have odd pronunciations of words like 'shower', which comes out like 'shar' and flower, which sounds like 'flar'. I've gotten used to Dutchie accents from locals, but there is a part of southern PA that is totally different from an accent standpoint.

And stuff like 'warsh'? I grew up in NC. That sounds like a normal pronunciation from the folks I grew up around.

But the dropped Ts is one I can't get around. Makes the hair on my neck stand up. If my son starts dropping them, I'm going to have to beat some sense into him.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> True story: When my dad retired we moved to Western North Carolina. Far from humanity, and deep into Appalachia, which according some sources, still speak olde English.
> 
> Years later I went back for a visit and took my wife, who was raised in the Pacific NW of the US. Saw the father of a friend and had a 30 minute discussion. Afterwards my wife told me that she didn't understand him. Not part of it. ALL of it. Couldn't understand a single word.


I believe it! My parents were originally from western North Carolina, though I never heard much of an accent from them. But other relatives from the area have thick accents. And the further into the woods you go, the thicker it gets. It sounds natural to me, but I can easily see how people would be thrown off.

One odd result of my accent: I started work with a native of London. One of the first times we met he asked what part of England I was from. Huh??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

shrewboy said:


> But the dropped Ts is one I can't get around. Makes the hair on my neck stand up. If my son starts dropping them, I'm going to have to beat some sense into him.
> 
> 
> > Remember, kids will always do the opposite to their parents.
> ...


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Is Serious Watches selling on eBay now?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Is Serious Watches selling on eBay now?


They have been for quite some time.

Don't you remember the "Severely Disappointed in NTH and Docvail" thread about it?


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This little beauty is on my wrist again.





































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Did a thing.

Doc, here's my late entry into the "it coulda been stock" category:


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> They have been for quite some time.
> 
> Don't you remember the "Severely Disappointed in NTH and Docvail" thread about it?


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Just got this out of the box..... its amazing. The dial has such great depth and texture. 








The lume is great, even shows up in the daylight pic below ( with a little help from my UV torch)









Doc, superb work, I love it. Its so much better in person, my photos just cannot do it justice. 
Consider my hat well and truly doff'd


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Just got this out of the box..... its amazing. The dial has such great depth and texture.
> 
> The lume is great, even shows up in the daylight pic below ( with a little help from my UV torch)
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I can't understand your accent.

Just kidding. Thanks for the kind words. Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


----------



## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> This little beauty is on my wrist again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really cool! I should know this, but haven't kept up with all the threads and product releases along the way. Are those hand skeletonized? Is that a word? So, just a frame around the outside, no middle where the lume would normally be?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shrewboy said:


> Really cool! I should know this, but haven't kept up with all the threads and product releases along the way. Are those hand skeletonized? Is that a word? So, just a frame around the outside, no middle where the lume would normally be?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a customized Santa Fe. That's not the stock bezel, or handset. The hands are after-market skeletonized snowflakes.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

As this is a Memorial weekend, I'm wearing this one as a tribute to all fallen angels and heroes.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

^^^ What he said ^^^


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

gavindavie said:


> Just got this out of the box..... its amazing. The dial has such great depth and texture.
> View attachment 15908138
> 
> The lume is great, even shows up in the daylight pic below ( with a little help from my UV torch)
> ...


Cool shot with the lume. I hadn't noticed the finer details of the indices before.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## heyitsthatguy (Sep 18, 2015)

Ok, I’m thinking about trying my hand with the fitted strap on my Näcken. You guys that have posted pics make them look pretty awesome.

Any tips for getting the strap to fit? Should I be scared?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> It's a customized Santa Fe. That's not the stock bezel, or handset. The hands are after-market skeletonized snowflakes.


Ah doc... now if only you offered that hand set... they are a beauty! I really love them!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

heyitsthatguy said:


> Ok, I'm thinking about trying my hand with the fitted strap on my Näcken. You guys that have posted pics make them look pretty awesome.
> 
> Any tips for getting the strap to fit? Should I be scared?


I wasn't lying when I said its the most comfortable rubber strap I've worn. Not in the slightest. It may not smell like vanilla(which I like, unlike some), but it put my Bonetto straps to shame.

If you go in knowing it's gonna be a slight PITA and have some patience, you'll be fine.

I was able to seat one side of the spring bar with relative ease. Then I compressed the other end into the lugs and used the spring bar tool as a pry bar. If you've got a cheapie spring bar tool, it's likely to bend, so maybe try a bracelet screwdriver? Brute forcing the other end into its respective lug hole was the only way I could make it work. It took a few attempts.

Word from the wise. Dont do this over a hard surface. I _thought_ I had finished up the task and strapped it on... as I tightened up the buckle, the strap pulled out of one side and the watch plopped down into my lap. So if you think you've got it in place, be sure. Pull, tug, wiggle the strap back in forth.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

I don't know how or why, but I've had this nato for about a year, bought it specifically for the AVG, and never put it on. It's been sitting idle in the strap drawer.. what a shame, it's such a perfect match!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Was someone here looking for a new Amphion Commando? We just sent 10 pieces out to Watch Gauge and Serious Watches. I know John at Watch Gauge is down to his last 2 pieces, both with-dates.

We also sent out 10 Odin Blue, and 10 Dolphin Magenta, also to Watch Gauge and Serious, for anyone looking for those models.

They'll both have a few more of the Barracuda Polar White, no-date, by the middle of this coming week.









NTH


Why NTH? What does it mean? Is it “Enth” or “N-T-H”? In algebra, N represents an unknown value of infinite possibilities. The process of solving an equation to find the value of N is a process of reducing the unknown and infinite down to the known and finite. It's a lot like the process of...




watchgauge.com













NTH


NTH is an American brand that is inspired by classic and vintage designs but takes watches to the next level. To the Nth degree!




www.seriouswatches.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

heyitsthatguy said:


> Ok, I'm thinking about trying my hand with the fitted strap on my Näcken. You guys that have posted pics make them look pretty awesome.
> 
> Any tips for getting the strap to fit? Should I be scared?





TheBearded said:


> I wasn't lying when I said its the most comfortable rubber strap I've worn. Not in the slightest. It may not smell like vanilla(which I like, unlike some), but it put my Bonetto straps to shame.
> 
> If you go in knowing it's gonna be a slight PITA and have some patience, you'll be fine.
> 
> ...


What Bearded said.

I've fitted one of these straps six times now.

My technique has been to get one end of the spring bar into the lug hole, with the crystal facing down. Push the strap up against the case, and push downward into the lugs until the other side of the spring bar hits the back of the lugs.

Push that end of the spring bar inward, while pushing down on the back of the strap. Get the spring bar close to the lug hole. From there, things go one of two ways...

In some instances, I was able to get that end of the spring bar to seat just by pushing inward against the strap. But two or three times, the bar wasn't all the way into the lug hole, and popped out soon after.

So in those instances, I've started looking at the ends under a loupe, and using the spring bar tool to make sure they were all the way into the lug holes, typically just pushing the bar towards the hole, and nudging it in.

Alternatively, if the ends just don't want to seat, no matter how much I push on the outside of the strap, I'll use the spring bar tool like a pry bar, and lever the ends into the lug holes.

Viton rubber isn't as compressible as some other rubber strap compounds. The straps are slightly compressible, but only VERY slightly. If you've got the strength, you can push the strap towards the case, to get the ends of the spring bar closer to the lug holes.

I have a felt jewelry pad that I lay the watches on when doing strap swaps or sizing a bracelet. It provides a little cushioning, and keeps spring bars and bracelet screws from rolling away. As an alternative, I'd lay a dish towel or chamois down over a clean, level surface.


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## heyitsthatguy (Sep 18, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> I wasn't lying when I said its the most comfortable rubber strap I've worn. Not in the slightest. It may not smell like vanilla(which I like, unlike some), but it put my Bonetto straps to shame.
> 
> If you go in knowing it's gonna be a slight PITA and have some patience, you'll be fine.
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> What Bearded said.
> 
> I've fitted one of these straps six times now.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips guys!

I await the strap with only mild anxiety.

I sometimes resort to the pry-the-spring-bar trick wrestling the Orthos bracelet back on, so I'm sure it will all be fine.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

heyitsthatguy said:


> Thanks for the tips guys!
> 
> I await the strap with only mild anxiety.
> 
> I sometimes resort to the pry-the-spring-bar trick wrestling the Orthos bracelet back on, so I'm sure it will all be fine.


If you can get the Orthos bracelet on, you'll be fine.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Here's a mini-rant...
> 
> How do you all think straps are measured? If a strap length is listed as 120mm/80mm, is that 120mm the entire length of the long side, from end to end, or just from the spring bar to the last hole?


Random drop in to tack onto this rant...
Y'know what I've done to every. single. rubber. strap. I've ever had? (tropic, non-tropic, regardless of who made it - but it applies _especially_ for tropic style straps)

I've _always_ had to punch out an extra hole inbetween two moulded ones to actually get rubber straps to fit properly (i.e. not too tight and not too loose). For whatever reason, the hole spacing on rubber straps tends to be far too large, and this is especially common on tropic style straps, where the moulded holes are a mile apart. (equivalent to like 2-3 microadjust holes on clasps).

Now, this is not to disparage nth or the work and care doc places in the stuff he makes. I'm sure it's top-shelf stuff. My point is, the "standard practice" or "the way things are done" w.r.t. rubber straps throughout the watch world sometimes makes no sense, and imo it's good that doc is questioning some of the established nonsense.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

^^^ I've experienced the same with the tropic straps with regard to hole spacing. The NTH is much better. The Scurfa straps have great spacing and a lot of holes but they are too small for me also. The rubber strap that came with my Traser P6600 is a great length but the spacing is off for me. 

On another note, I got a second friend and fellow Submariner to buy an NTH. He chose a blue Thresher also. Wanted a date version but decided to take advantage of the nearly new program and got the no-date. The strap I bought will go to a loving home.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Pat Tillman is an American hero. Along with every other man and woman who sacrificed everything to protect our country so that people can feel free to burn American flags and open carry. We'll never agree on everything and can we just agree on that?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

HammyMan37 said:


> Pat Tillman is an American hero. Along with every other man and woman who sacrificed everything to protect our country so that people can feel free to burn American flags and open carry. We'll never agree on everything and can we just agree on that?


I'm not disagreeing.
But did I miss something?


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> I'm not disagreeing.
> But did I miss something?


Nope. I saw his pic from Doc and just wanted to reply and honor him.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

HammyMan37 said:


> Nope. I saw his pic from Doc and just wanted to reply and honor him.


And also that politics divide us and we really should be coming together like we did on 9/12/01


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Its a close to the tropics as it gets in Scotland. The mist's parted this afternoon and the sun came out


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> Pat Tillman is an American hero. Along with every other man and woman who sacrificed everything to protect our country so that people can feel free to burn American flags and open carry. We'll never agree on everything and can we just agree on that?


But can we also agree his beret was pretty close to perfect in that pic?

In all seriousness, yes, Pat Tillman is an inspirational figure and hero.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apropos of nothing...

Some friends and I went out last night to celebrate my best friend's 50th birthday by partaking in axe-throwing.

If you've never done it, I highly recommend.


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## domayotte (Nov 17, 2012)

docvail said:


> Apropos of nothing...
> 
> Some friends and I went out last night to celebrate my best friend's 50th birthday by partaking in axe-throwing.
> 
> If you've never done it, I highly recommend.


An axe throwing place just opened in my town, within the last week or so. It seems like something you do once, not as a long term hobby. I may give it a whirl.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

domayotte said:


> An axe throwing place just opened in my town, within the last week or so. *It seems like something you do once, not as a long term hobby.* I may give it a whirl.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Funny thing - at one point, one of my friends compared the level of difficulty / inconsistency to bowling. And as we were leaving, we noticed signs for weekly axe-throwing leagues.

I'm not saying axe-throwing is going to be my new thing. It won't be, but if I had to choose, I think I'd rather spend a couple hours a week axe-throwing than bowling, or 2x-3x as much time golfing.

It seemed to me like the practice needed to get decent to good at it would be a lot less. And, among the 8 of us who were there, I didn't see any correlation between age, size, or fitness level, and consistently scoring, which suggests that the playing field (so to speak) is pretty level for anyone at a beginner level.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

gavindavie said:


> View attachment 15911719
> View attachment 15911721
> 
> 
> Its a close to the tropics as it gets in Scotland. The mist's parted this afternoon and the sun came out


I love your prehistoric beastie. 
I'd love to have summer garden flower muncher in my house. But can't get them anymore. Great picture. Lovely shot of the Antilles too.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Funny thing - at one point, one of my friends compared the level of difficulty / inconsistency to bowling. And as we were leaving, we noticed signs for weekly axe-throwing leagues.
> 
> I'm not saying axe-throwing is going to be my new thing. It won't be, but if I had to choose, I think I'd rather spend a couple hours a week axe-throwing than bowling, or 2x-3x as much time golfing.
> 
> It seemed to me like the practice needed to get decent to good at it would be a lot less. And, among the 8 of us who were there, I didn't see any correlation between age, size, or fitness level, and consistently scoring, which suggests that the playing field (so to speak) is pretty level for anyone at a beginner level.


Was this in Kennett? If so, I love that little town. Its awesome and I do want to try the axe place.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> Was this in Kennett? If so, I love that little town. Its awesome and I do want to try the axe place.


No, King of Prussia.

It was called "Bury the Hatchet". Apparently it's part of a decent size chain -









Axe Throwing | Bury The Hatchet


Experience the Thrill of Axe Throwing at Bury The Hatchet! We are the #1 choice for Corporate Events, Leagues, or just having fun with friends




burythehatchet.com





The eight of us all agreed it was a great time, and well worth the <$50 per person ($47, to be exact) it cost us for 2 hours of good, wholesome fun.

My friend, the birthday-boy, even got to take home the center-section slab of the wooden target as a keepsake, which we all autographed for him.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Chris, my friend decided he'd prefer the the nearly new black Thresher WITH date. I told him I would let you know here but also to send an email or call on Tuesday.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

With apologies to Doc for shenanigans and voiding the warranty, I had to have this dial (the best dial I've ever seen, with its BGW9 skeleton California indices and the Ghostly logo and text) in a 38mm non-diver. It's freaking perfect.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> With apologies to Doc for shenanigans and voiding the warranty, I had to have this dial (the best dial I've ever seen, with its BGW9 skeleton California indices and the Ghostly logo and text) in a 38mm non-diver. It's freaking perfect.


It's absolutely gorgeous!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> With apologies to Doc for shenanigans and voiding the warranty, I had to have this dial (the best dial I've ever seen, with its BGW9 skeleton California indices and the Ghostly logo and text) in a 38mm non-diver. It's freaking perfect.


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> With apologies to Doc for shenanigans and voiding the warranty, I had to have this dial (the best dial I've ever seen, with its BGW9 skeleton California indices and the Ghostly logo and text) in a 38mm non-diver. It's freaking perfect.


Is that 1 of 1???? How much?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

HammyMan37 said:


> Is that 1 of 1???? How much?


Yep, one of a kind.

What I'd ask, no one in their right mind would pay.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

domayotte said:


> An axe throwing place just opened in my town, within the last week or so. It seems like something you do once, not as a long term hobby. I may give it a whirl.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I grew up in a small town built around a lumber yard, we did it growing up.

Watching the axe throwing league on ESPN during covid I was in awe. Those guys are impressive


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> With apologies to Doc for shenanigans and voiding the warranty, I had to have this dial (the best dial I've ever seen, with its BGW9 skeleton California indices and the Ghostly logo and text) in a 38mm non-diver. It's freaking perfect.


Now you have to sell it, not tell the buyer about the mod or voided warranty, and then they can reach out to Doc for warranty work. Every time I read one of those I just want to buy Chris a beer for his troubles lol


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## domayotte (Nov 17, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I grew up in a small town built around a lumber yard, we did it growing up.
> 
> Watching the axe throwing league on ESPN during covid I was in awe. Those guys are impressive


Interesting. I grew up working at my parent's lumber mill, but we threw knives, not axes. They were for wood chopping only. .

I think I'll give it a try. Like a Viking movie or something, right?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

domayotte said:


> Interesting. I grew up working at my parent's lumber mill, but we threw knives, not axes. They were for wood chopping only. .
> 
> I think I'll give it a try. Like a Viking movie or something, right?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Fair point, we cut with axes, we threw hatchets


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## domayotte (Nov 17, 2012)

Hey, as long as we were throwing sharpened tools at a target, that’s a win, right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Ok guys I give up.... what is this actually for? Part of me thinks its just a thing with a logo on it. The other part thinks it's an American thing that I just don't get...


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

I believe you're meant to glue it to the back of your phone


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

gavindavie said:


> Ok guys I give up.... what is this actually for? Part of me thinks its just a thing with a logo on it. The other part thinks it's an American thing that I just don't get...


If someone takes your parking spot, you stick it to their car


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Its a shirt pocket protector. It sticks to the inside of the shirt pocket so you wont get ink stains, also handy to carry around all your NTH receipts.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Emergency prophylactic.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

If you remove the contents and fold it in half, within 5 seconds it explodes.


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I believe you're meant to glue it to the back of your phone


Glue it to the back of your phone and keep a couple of cards and your license in it? I had the same question when I pulled it out of the box but didn't ask. And for the other poster, don't worry, I'm in the US and still didn't have a clue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Ok guys I give up.... what is this actually for? Part of me thinks its just a thing with a logo on it. The other part thinks it's an American thing that I just don't get...
> View attachment 15913160


Peel off the backing, and stick it to your phone. Keep some cash or a couple cards in it when you don't feel like carrying your wallet.

When someone asks you about the logo, tell them about the awesome watch brand behind it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

For those who never got to hang up their uniform.









And seeing as this is the NTH thread on a watch forum. This got the nod this gloomy morning.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ghost with the phenomenato






























Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

From lunch in the garden. It looks like the weather has had an extra long winter and gone straight into summer.
Back on the bracelet.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads-up!

We just added 2 more 20mm rubber straps to our store - orange, and black & blue.

20mm Curved-End Viton™ Rubber Strap, Blue Striped, for NTH Subs









20mm Curved-End Viton™ Rubber Strap, Orange, for NTH Subs


This tapered rubber strap is made from premium quality Viton™ rubber, providing the utmost durability while remaining pliable and comfortable, and resistant to attracting dust. It has a curved-end specifically designed to fit the 20mm lugs of the 40mm NTH Subs. It will not fit the NTH Tropics...




nthwatches.com


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Meant to post this earlier this morning. The day kinda got away from me.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mawgie (Mar 10, 2011)

I am looking at a couple of different used NTH divers (Nacken and Barracuda). This will be my first purchase of an NTH.

I'd like to limit my search to watches with the newer, reportedly nicer version of the bracelet. Can anyone tell me what to look for how to confirm that the bracelet is the newer one: visual telltale; date of manufacture; serial number, etc. 

Thanks for any input.


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## zeeper25 (Jul 6, 2020)

just found this thread, I like your watches, here is a question that has probably been asked in the 364 posts here, but I will ask anyway, when a small brand makes a stellar watch that sells out why is it that they don't go back and re-release it? I can see several micro brands that produce watches in small quantities that get instantly sold out, then sometimes appear at large markups on the secondary markets. I actually shopped some NTH watches but never found the one I wanted still in production and didn't want to pay more to buy it off ebay than when it sold new, not the only brand that I've noticed suffers from this high demand/low supply issue.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mawgie said:


> I am looking at a couple of different used NTH divers (Nacken and Barracuda). This will be my first purchase of an NTH.
> 
> I'd like to limit my search to watches with the newer, reportedly nicer version of the bracelet. Can anyone tell me what to look for how to confirm that the bracelet is the newer one: visual telltale; date of manufacture; serial number, etc.
> 
> Thanks for any input.


So...there's actually 3 versions now. Sorry to make this confusing, but here goes...

The v.1 bracelet had the older clasp with 3 micro-adjustments, and links shaped like a "C" when you look at them from the side. This is the v.1:


















The v.2 bracelet has the newer clasp, with 6 micro-adjustments. If you look at the links from the side, they're oviod. This is the v.2:



















The v.2.1 bracelet is exactly the same as the v.2, except the end-links sit slightly below the surface of the lugs, and the center-section of the end-link is a little more defined.

This is the v.2.1:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

zeeper25 said:


> just found this thread, I like your watches, here is a question that has probably been asked in the 364 posts here, but I will ask anyway, when a small brand makes a stellar watch that sells out why is it that they don't go back and re-release it? I can see several micro brands that produce watches in small quantities that get instantly sold out, then sometimes appear at large markups on the secondary markets. I actually shopped some NTH watches but never found the one I wanted still in production and didn't want to pay more to buy it off ebay than when it sold new, not the only brand that I've noticed suffers from this high demand/low supply issue.


Welcome.

Here's your answer, or at least part of it, as a response to another forum user who wondered much the same thing.



docvail said:


> What you call "quick discontinuation" really isn't.
> 
> Most brands, both large and small, outsource their production. That means that we don't just "turn on the machines" and keep making watches until we feel like stopping. It means we typically order a finite number of each version of a model, and then we have to monitor sales, to determine when, or even *IF* we should make more.
> 
> ...


Without naming specific brands...

1. If a brand sells out "instantly", and you see the watches selling for more on the secondary market, the brand is under-pricing. The faster they sell out, and the more the watches sell for on the secondary market, the more the brand is under-pricing.

It's basic supply and demand.

Why do they do it?

Personally, I think they're stupid for doing it. They're leaving money on the table. A lot of it. And pissing off a good chunk of their potential market, by creating an unenjoyable experience mixed with a lot of anxiety.

If an inventory business is selling its inventory faster than the inventory can be replaced, and the product is selling for more on the secondary market, then that business needs to raise prices, full stop. That should be obviously true to anyone who can think logically.

I think their rationalization is "they're not in it for the money", and they're only part time, and under-pricing their product is a way to ensure they don't end up with unsold inventory if or when the economy $hlts the bed.

I think that's all BS, but I'm just a guy who looks at numbers and thinks logically.

2. While I'm aware that at times, some NTH models have sold for more on the secondary market, I can't imagine that's the norm, even now, after we've stepped up production to meet apparent demand. I would expect most models are selling for $100-$150 less than they would sell for new.

3. Please don't tell me you're comparing secondary market prices to what we sold a watch for during a discounted pre-order, 5 years ago. I can't have that debate again. Just kill me now.

4. We're not suffering from high-demand/low-supply. Without breaking my arm patting myself on the back, I think we're way ahead of the curve in matching production to demand. With most versions of most models we produce, they're available for at least 3-6 months after release. That's hardly selling out "instantly".

5. We have 6 retailers around the world. They buy up about 90% of our inventory pre-release. More often than not, if the NTH website is "sold out" of something, it's still available, somewhere, from one of our retailers. With only 6 websites to check, it shouldn't take that long to find what you want.









Retailers







nthwatches.com





6. If I had a nickel for every time someone complained that any brand, large or small, discontinued a model while there was still demand, I'd have...lemme see here...carry the two...$3.65? That can't be right...

I'd love it if Chevrolet still made the split-back Corvette Stingray, and of course if they still sold them for whatever they cost back in 1963, before I was born. But those rat bastards have just moved on, while there's still demand. I can't believe what they sell for on the secondary market, either. Damned dirty profiteers, flipping them for a profit. A pox on all their houses...

The plain fact is that there's no such thing as perfect matching of supply and demand in this industry. If we make 500 pieces of something, and it takes 2 years to sell them all, someone will come along the next day and ask when we're making more. That's not really "demand", in the sense that it's not nearly enough demand to rationalize production of more, when that would require us to make another 300-500 pieces.

We've made something like 8,000 watches since I started this business. Depending on the version, we made them in numbers ranging from 5 pieces to a few hundred. If something sells out quickly, we typically make more. If it doesn't, then we typically won't, and instead we'll make something else.


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## Louis_A (Mar 8, 2013)

docvail said:


> Welcome.
> 
> Here's your answer, or at least part of it, as a response to another forum user who wondered much the same thing.
> 
> ...


Economics in one lesson!


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## zeeper25 (Jul 6, 2020)

I guess I never saw that multiple retailers sell your watches, I went to your website last year when I was shopping to look for a specific watch (I think it was the nacken) and it was sold out. I then searched the next place most people would look, and found it selling for more than retail (slightly used) on ebay. I am glad you are reissuing, it seems like a lot of brands don't do this (brands like Halios) -- and those watches are selling for more used than they sold new.


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## Mawgie (Mar 10, 2011)

Doc,

Thank you for the prompt reply. Helpful and appreciated.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

zeeper25 said:


> I guess I never saw that multiple retailers sell your watches, I went to your website last year when I was shopping to look for a specific watch (I think it was the nacken) and it was sold out. I then searched the next place most people would look, and found it selling for more than retail (slightly used) on ebay. I am glad you are reissuing, it seems like a lot of brands don't do this (brands like Halios) -- and those watches are selling for more used than they sold new.


After I posted, I realized some of that might have sounded snarky, which wasn't my intent. Thanks for not taking offense to any of it (or letting it slide, if you did).

We routinely get questions from folks, via email or social media, about this or that model. If you tell us what you're looking for, we'll point you right to it. There have been 6 different versions of the Nacken, so we'll need more to go on than just "Nacken".

Not to continue beating the horse beyond the point of death, but we've produced something like 1440 of the Nacken, in all its varieties, ranging from 100 to 650 pieces, depending on which model you mean. I think that demonstrates that we've done our part to ensure supply matches demand as closely as we can effectively manage it.

Of the 6 different versions, 4 are still in stock and available, somewhere, although in some instances, you may find there's only the date, when you want a no-date (or vice-versa), or that the store which has it in stock is remote. I try to manage global inventory distribution as best I can, but inevitably, the last piece of something will end up somewhere, and I can't guarantee where that will be.

Halios is a one-man-show, with a very hands-on owner. There are only so many hours in the day, so his capacity is limited as a result. I can't speak for Jason, the owner, but my suspicion is that he likes to create new designs more than he likes to go back and re-visit old ones.

Personally, I understand the inclination to want to be creative and always be working on something new. At the same time, there's a lot to be said in favor of having some repeatability in a business like this.

We try to strike the right balance, but it seems like we're equally criticized for "doing the same thing over and over" and not re-releasing older, sold-out designs.

It's all good. My mother didn't raise any delicate flowers, but if she did, that would be my little brother.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Welcome.
> 
> Here's your answer, or at least part of it, as a response to another forum user who wondered much the same thing.
> 
> ...


So is it just other micro brand owners who sell more watches that you are calling stupid or do you also think that companies like Rolex are also run by stupid people? I should add that it's a terrible way to talk about anyone, especially with people in the same industry as you.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Only because we're talking about it, I'll wax on a little more...

I routinely struggle with decisions regarding where to invest my time and energy - into new designs/models, or re-releasing stuff we've made before. 

The risk in developing a new design is that it can turn into months of work put into something that's a dead-end, and doesn't get produced, for whatever reason. Or if it does, it might not sell. 

If we were still doing pre-orders, in advance of starting production, we'd be able to pull the rip chord and refund pre-orders if we weren't seeing the sales needed to rationalize production. But we don't do that any more. I finance all production costs out of cash flow, so there's a real financial risk to investing in something we don't make, or that doesn't sell.

Likewise, no matter how popular any design seems to be, it has a shelf life. There's a product lifecycle to consider, and we don't want to end up producing more of something that's past its sell-by date. Even if there's enough demand in the future, that doesn't really help us if we have the inventory produced, right now, but the market isn't ready to absorb it.

I talk to John Keil, from Watch Gauge (one of our retailers) about this, fairly frequently. We don't really get "angry" when it happens, but there is that sense of "where the f**k have you been" when we finally sold the last piece of something, that one piece that's been sitting on the shelf for a year, and the next day (literally, in many cases), someone asks when we'll make more.

Understandably, sometimes someone is new to the hobby, and just learned of the brand, or some model we made. I get that. But for every new enthusiast, we know there are dozens, maybe even hundreds, who are sitting on the fence, thinking, "I'll pick one of those up eventually."

I saw some survey data which suggested the typical enthusiast will research or merely think about a new purchase for six months, on average, before deciding to pull the trigger. Fortunately for many enthusiasts, most of the watch industry is caught up in over-production, such that most watches will not only be available for at least that long, you'll likely be able to get one at a lower price if you wait that long. The industry has made it possible for people to take their time, and look for a deal.

Unfortunately, that sucks for the business. Inventory businesses are supposed to turn their inventory over 4x per year, or every 3 months. In a perfect world, watches would be like clothing - when this season's line sells out, that's it, you'll never see it again, and most, if not all of it is sold in 3 months. 

We're trying to thread the needle here (at NTH). We want to convey a sense of urgency, but also avoid the unpleasant experience of the "limited drop" - the mad-dash to get in on the hot new release, which sells out in minutes (literally). I like to think that we're doing a decent job of maintaining that equilibrium point, albeit, with some occasional up-and-down swings.

The best we've been able to do is offer a wide selection of designs, some of which sell out sooner than others, but we also do everything we can to make customers aware that everything we produce is made in finite numbers. In many cases, you can't take 6 months to think about it, if you want to get a new NTH.

If you miss the boat, there's always the used market.


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> I saw some survey data which suggested the typical enthusiast will research or merely think about a new purchase for six months, on average, before deciding to pull the trigger. Fortunately for many enthusiasts, most of the watch industry is caught up in over-production, such that most watches will not only be available for at least that long, you'll likely be able to get one at a lower price if you wait that long. The industry has made it possible for people to take their time, and look for a deal.


Chris, I'm curious if you think that some of the manufacturers have priced this in. Are some of the manufacturers releasing at a higher than expected/justified price point, taking some extra profit on the early units, then selling at their real long term price for the longer term? I'm not asking from the standpoint of any previous knowledge (or ANY knowledge if we're being honest), just curious.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As long as we're talking about it...

Vanguard - last piece in the world, a no-date, at Serious Watches - NTH Vanguard No Date

Nazario Sauro - last one in the world, at Watch Gauge - Nazario Sauro - will definitely NOT be produced again.

Scorpène Nomad With Date, last one in the world, at IntoWatch - 인투와치 - will definitely NOT be produced again.

Bahia, no-date, last one in the world, at IntoWatch - 인투와치

Näcken Vintage Black with Date - the last one (date or no-date) left in the world, at Five:45 - NTH Nacken Vintage W/ Date

Oberon, with date, last in the world, at Serious - NTH Oberon II Date

Tikuna, with date, the last in the world (with or without a date), at Serious - NTH Tikuna Date - will definitely NOT be produced again.

DevilRay, Black, last no-date in the world, at IntoWatch - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=155&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Scorpène - White, DLC, No Date, last in the world, at Serious (one of only 5 produced) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-scorpene-white-dlc-no-date - will definitely NOT be produced again.

Barracuda - Vintage Black, Stainless, No Date - last one left in the world, at the Watchdrobe - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/sub-barracuda-vintageblack

Last Dolphin, Magenta, no-date, at Serious - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-dolphin-magenta-no-date

Those are just the "last piece left" SKUs. I'm tracking global inventory for 66 different SKUs. On average, there are fewer than 6 pieces left per SKU.

I wouldn't wait six months.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Well, having read all that, I’m glad I have my pair (one Azores, one Antilles) of the new Tropics models inbound from Watch Gauge! Also nice to know I’m not the “typical” enthusiast. Accidently ran across Azores model last week, ordered this week (was stationed on Terceira in the mid-90s) and it’s due in tomorrow. Seeing the Antilles model I really wanted was already sold out, I ordered the Dark Rum Antilles so I’d have one of each new Tropics model. If I luck into a Cointreau down the road so be it. So for me, not six months, maybe six days to decide - took that long because I did responsible due diligence.

If these two are all I think they’ll be, already have my eye on a couple of other “in stock” models.

Lastly, I appreciate an owner willing to address the customer at this level and especially appreciate the frankness. I learned to appreciate such things in a lifetime of military service.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shrewboy said:


> Chris, I'm curious if you think that some of the manufacturers have priced this in. Are some of the manufacturers releasing at a higher than expected/justified price point, taking some extra profit on the early units, then selling at their real long term price for the longer term? I'm not asking from the standpoint of any previous knowledge (or ANY knowledge if we're being honest), just curious.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think most have no idea what they're doing, and the market consistently gives them way too much credit for actually "thinking", when most clearly aren't. No one in their right mind would run a business the way most watch companies are run.

I'll try to make this as brief as possible. A lot of what's happening in the industry today can trace its roots to the quartz "crisis", Nick Hayek's breakup of the Swiss industry, the outsourcing of production, which brings about minimum order quantities (MOQs), and the rise of the "Swiss Made" label, which demands all Swiss brands at least make a pretense at being "luxury".

Here's how it breaks down...

Prior to the quartz crisis, most Swiss watches weren't "luxury" goods. They were just tools for telling time. All of a sudden, the Japanese (mostly Seiko) started eating their lunch, selling cheaper, more accurate quartz watches to the great unwashed masses. The Swiss tried to compete head-to-head in quartz, realized they were just too late to the party, and so instead, they pivoted to a new strategy.

From then on, Swiss MECHANICAL watches would be "luxury" goods, and for the most part, produced by third party manufacturers, not the brands themselves, after Nick Sr made them all give up their manufacturing operations.

"Luxury" branding on a product is a funny thing, though. If everyone and anyone can afford a product, then it really isn't "luxury". In order to maintain that luxury status, the product has to be unaffordable for most of the population. So as incomes rise, a luxury brand has to raise prices at least as fast as inflation, but more likely, they have to raise prices faster, since wage growth generally outpaces inflation (at least until the last two decades).

I think most of the Swiss industry has been taking its cue from Rolex, but without Rolex's advantages. Rolex is privately held, and the consensus seems to be that they're vertically-integrated, i.e., they own their own production facilities, which means they don't need to worry about MOQs. Rolex is also the most recognized watch brand in the world. So they have a lot of things going for them, which enable the brand to do things like incessantly raise prices, stuff their retail channel, or cut production, if needed.

If you look at Rolex pricing going back 50 years, they haven't just been raising prices to keep up with wage growth. They've been raising prices faster. That means the product has become LESS affordable for MORE people over time.

Think about the entire Swiss industry doing that. Think about where that leads. You could be half an idiot and still predict what will happen - they're steadily shrinking their market.

And yet - they can't simply make fewer watches each year. They're under pressure to employ the same people, year after year. If anything, they're trying to increase production, even as their market has shrunk. It inevitably leads to a glut of product.

Are their prices too high? Yes, demonstrably so, since they're drowning in unsold inventory. But that's only one side of the coin. The other is just basic over-production, regardless of pricing. Even if a $2000 watch is really a $1000 watch, there are only so many people in the world looking to buy a $1,000 watch.

I'm not just picking on the big, Swiss brands. It happens in micro-land too, though for different reasons.

Most factories demand we make 500 pieces at a time. We can sometimes negotiate down to 300, but still, this becomes a math problem. If we have to make 300 pieces at a time, and we're supposed to turn our inventory over 4x per year, then a startup doesn't approach sustainability until they're producing - AND SELLING - at least 1200 pieces per year, if not 2000.

Under that number, the business is going to struggle with unsold inventory, which they'll be forced to discount, just to get rid of it, and create the cash flow needed to keep up with operating costs. But that's most micros. Very, very few are selling even 500-600 watches per year. Most are part-timers. They come out with 300 pieces of a new release, and you don't see anything else for 2 years.

This is why so many micros are under such pressure to under-price their products. Beyond the lower market awareness of startup brands, which already puts downward pressure on prices, and the many brand owners fool enough to think that "value for money" is a good substitute for actually doing decent promotion, there's the simple, basic reality that no small brand can afford to sit on a lot of unsold inventory for very long.

And yet, it's very easy for a startup to be fooled into being overly, and unrealistically optimistic. On my first model, we sold 200 pieces in the first 5 months. I thought, "well, if we're selling 40 pieces per month, and I want to get to 120, I just need to create two more models."

I was an idiot. I didn't realize I sold 80% of those 200 in the first month, and the numbers steadily declined every month thereafter. It's still true today. We sell 50%-80% of a new release in the first 30-60 days. It might take the next 2-4 months to sell another 10%-20%, and we end up staring at the last 5%-10% for 6 months to a year.

But if a startup brand owner absolutely "kills it" on Kickstarter, or in pre-order, and sells a whopping (/sarcasm) 120-150 pieces, they'll go right ahead and produce 300, or worse, 500, not realizing that their sales are about to slow to a trickle. By the time they actually take delivery of all that inventory, they're desperate to get rid of it, so it ends up on Touch of Modern, or MassDrop, or the Hodinkee Store, the Wind-up Shop, Watch Gang, etc.

Otherwise, they'll be having a deep-discount sale every-other week. When you see a brand promoting the idea of buying a watch to celebrate Halloween, you know things are not hunky-dory.

When someone tells me some other brand is selling a watch with the same specs and components for less, I kind of chuckle. To me, all I hear is, "some other brand is struggling to sell all the inventory they produced, or simply isn't confident enough to price it right, and sell it in 3 months, instead of 3 minutes."


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Only because we're talking about it, I'll wax on a little more...
> 
> I routinely struggle with decisions regarding where to invest my time and energy - into new designs/models, or re-releasing stuff we've made before.
> 
> ...


You've talked about that limited-drop thing before, where a brand opens sales for 93 secs every 2nd Sunday of every 3rd month, or whatever. It's like a micro brand Rolex - you should consider yourself special and privileged that we've let you buy one of our magical watches.
There are reasons for why they do it, I'm sure. But I think it stinks.



docvail said:


> I think most have no idea what they're doing, and the market consistently gives them way too much credit for actually "thinking", when most clearly aren't. No one in their right mind would run a business the way most watch companies are run.
> 
> I'll try to make this as brief as possible. A lot of what's happening in the industry today can trace its roots to the quartz "crisis", Nick Hayek's breakup of the Swiss industry, the outsourcing of production, which brings about minimum order quantities (MOQs), and the rise of the "Swiss Made" label, which demands all Swiss brands at least make a pretense at being "luxury".
> 
> ...


I'd be interested in what you think of CW's twice yearly sales. I've bought 2 of their watches for less than half price that way. Absolute bargains.
(It's inventory clearing, and cash flow generating of course. That's not what I'm asking).

What it's done is skewed my sense of what I'm willing to pay for a new CW. They make a watch that costs £1000, it's as good as any other equivalent Swiss £1000 watch, but I wouldn't pay more than half, or just over half that for one new.
Just wondered what you thought of that as a strategy, and how it affects brand image?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Well, having read all that, I'm glad I have my pair (one Azores, one Antilles) of the new Tropics models inbound from Watch Gauge! Also nice to know I'm not the "typical" enthusiast. Accidently ran across Azores model last week, ordered this week (was stationed on Terceira in the mid-90s) and it's due in tomorrow. Seeing the Antilles model I really wanted was already sold out, I ordered the Dark Rum Antilles so I'd have one of each new Tropics model. If I luck into a Cointreau down the road so be it. So for me, not six months, maybe six days to decide - took that long because I did responsible due diligence.
> 
> If these two are all I think they'll be, already have my eye on a couple of other "in stock" models.
> 
> Lastly, I appreciate an owner willing to address the customer at this level and especially appreciate the frankness. I learned to appreciate such things in a lifetime of military service.


Watch Gauge is sold out of the Cointreau, but I'm certain it isn't sold out worldwide. If you're looking for one, Serious has them, they'll strip the VAT out of the price for anyone not in the EU, and they ship free.

Just sayin'...

I appreciate your appreciation. I sometimes catch flack for my level of involvement here, and often for the degree of detail I provide.

Thanks for being a lifer. Even if the Army hadn't booted me for being half a malingerer, I didn't see myself staying in the full 20, much less for life.

On a positive side-note, my website has built-in analytics, which provide insights into every sale, including how many visits to the site someone made before their first purchase, when their first visit was, etc. As we've made improvements to our business, we've seen a steady decline in the number of days and number of site visits before someone makes a purchase.

It seems like a lot of our sales are now happening on people's first visit, which is kind of shocking, compared to the analytics we were looking at just a few years ago. So, it does seem like many customers are no longer taking as much time to make up their minds.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> You've talked about that limited-drop thing before, where a brand opens sales for 93 secs every 2nd Sunday of every 3rd month, or whatever. It's like a micro brand Rolex - you should consider yourself special and privileged that we've let you buy one of our magical watches.
> There are reasons for why they do it, I'm sure. But I think it stinks.
> 
> I'd be interested in what you think of CW's twice yearly sales. I've bought 2 of their watches for less than half price that way. Absolute bargains.
> ...


Re - the Rolex two-step, and all brands that play that "scarcity" game...

You can't chuck a rock in this forum, or in any watch group on Facebook, and not hit someone complaining about not being able to buy this or that watch, for love or money, because the brand sells out within minutes of opening pre-orders.

How many of them swear off those brands entirely? I don't know, but I've seen enough people claiming they'll never buy anything from those brands to think the "drop" model of selling is dubious, at best.

I forget where it was, but I just recently read someone (who seemed knowledgeable) making the case that even Rolex won't be able to get away with it forever. The basic, simplified logic was that if someone is looking to drop $10k on a luxury watch, and can't get a Rolex, they can still get an Omega, or whatever. People get tired of waiting, and being told "no", in a nutshell.

Makes sense to me. Don't ask me when it will come back to bite Rolex in the tuchus, because I wouldn't want to guess.

Re - CW...

First, I think they make a really nice product, full stop. I think they're very fairly priced, even at full price. I could even argue many are still a bargain.

But, let's be honest. It seems to me that they're on sale every month, not just twice a year. I'm on their email newsletter list, and it seems like their sales occur pretty regularly. I don't get it, and I think whoever let it happen should be shot, then fired.

They've taught their market to wait for sales, that only an idiot pays full price for one, etc, but the bottom line is the same as it is for every brand that plays that game - it diminishes the market's perception of the product's value, and ultimately, the brand's value, which is much, much worse.

Well-managed luxury brands don't fall into that trap. There are at least 10 things luxury brands do to avoid diminishing their brand prestige. I know there are at least 10, because I researched it, found 10, and taught them to participants in microbrand university.

It's not a coincidence that my business hasn't discounted a watch since 2017.

The crazy thing is - sales don't typically work, at least not for small brands in desperate need to move unsold inventory. I've never done one, or heard any other brand owner tell me they've done one, that didn't have disappointing results.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> As long as we're talking about it...
> 
> Tikuna, with date, the last in the world (with or without a date), at Serious - NTH Tikuna Date - will definitely NOT be produced again....


Woo hoo, great news...I got me a collector's piece now. So how many Tikuna's no date were produced? Definitely your finest work Doc... that is until you start doing skeletonised hands...









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Re - the Rolex two-step, and all brands that play that "scarcity" game...
> .
> 
> They've taught their market to wait for sales, that only an idiot pays full price for one, etc, but the bottom line is the same as it is for every brand that plays that game - it diminishes the market's perception of the product's value, and ultimately, the brand's value, which is much, much worse.
> ...


I have a mate who is quite senior in an Oz wide based glasses/sun glasses chain.

Discussing discounting I found it interesting that Bolle would regularly have sales and had outlet shops, whereas he was telling me Oakley never discounted and if they ever caught any retailer discounting their product, they were cut.

They didn't want to be seen as a cheap discounting brand. Hence why I was never able to get them with any discount. Whereas with Bolle, I'd just wait for the sales or head to the outlet/seconds store.

It's all about creating perception... whether real or otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> I have a mate who is quite senior in an Oz wide based glasses/sun glasses chain.
> 
> Discussing discounting I found it interesting that Bolle would regularly have sales and had outlet shops, whereas he was telling me Oakley never discounted and if they ever caught any retailer discounting their product, they were cut.
> 
> ...


At least in the US, Oakley was intelligent in their discounting. They did not execute full-market discounts, but they often offered reduced prices for military members, first responders, etc....with little to no limit on sales. Then they are not viewed as a discount brand, they are viewed as a charitable corporate citizen.

Different note, the lengths many luxury brands go to in order to avoid discounts (buy back and destroy at the most extreme) is still amazing to me. I would expect the data and tools available today would help them be much "closer to the pin"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Woo hoo, great news...I got me a collector's piece now. So how many Tikuna's no date were produced? Definitely your finest work Doc... that is until you start doing skeletonised hands...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We made 100 total - 50 with date, 50 no date.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> We made 100 total - 50 with date, 50 no date.


Tell the rest of the story....

But only 4 have stains on the rotor from being assembled while eating a doughnut. They are secretly the most rare NTH in the world

Yes, this post is really as stupid as it sounds. I am tired, watching Peppa Pig, and I want late night doughnuts for some unexplainable reason


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> ... I am tired, watching Peppa Pig, and I want late night doughnuts for some unexplainable reason


Not totally unexplainable...look at your avatar from Pete's sake! Lol 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> I have a mate who is quite senior in an Oz wide based glasses/sun glasses chain.
> 
> Discussing discounting I found it interesting that Bolle would regularly have sales and had outlet shops, whereas he was telling me Oakley never discounted and if they ever caught any retailer discounting their product, they were cut.
> 
> ...





Mediocre said:


> At least in the US, Oakley was intelligent in their discounting. They did not execute full-market discounts, but they often offered reduced prices for military members, first responders, etc....with little to no limit on sales. Then they are not viewed as a discount brand, they are viewed as a charitable corporate citizen.
> 
> Different note, the lengths many luxury brands go to in order to avoid discounts (buy back and destroy at the most extreme) is still amazing to me. I would expect the data and tools available today would help them be much "closer to the pin"


I can't speak to the economics involved in producing sunglasses. I'd think they'd be a lot cheaper to make than watches, and probably sold at higher markups, but I'm only speculating.

As for watches, it isn't just as easy as telling your retail chain, "don't discount, ever", unless the brand is willing to do more than just that, when there's unsold inventory sloshing about.

On occasion, I've asked retailers to sell some of their unsold inventory to other retailers, or just sell it back to me, when they've been sitting on it too long. It's not always easy to do, but it is possible.

I'd rather avoid the situation by doing a better job with inventory production and allocation in the first place. I don't love seeing the last piece or few pieces of some model "stuck" somewhere on the other side of the planet, knowing 2/3 of our sales come from within the US.

I don't know if any luxury watch brands are buying back unsold inventory, just to destroy it, but I know of some brands that will sometimes re-dial or otherwise replace parts on unsold inventory, in order to freshen it up and create a "new" version.

Think "Limited Edition".

That's basically what we did with the Phantom Ghost Rider. We just took the last 20-whatever pieces of the Phantom, and swapped in new dials and hands. Boom - Limited Edition.

One thing I've advocated to other brand owners is something luxury brands will do. Instead of looking for ways to rationalize lowering the price of the product, look for ways to add perceived value. A well-differentiated product, and / or one where the total package is perceived to have added value, is going to support a higher price.

It can be as simple as improving the packaging, or including some little extra(s), or adding some little flourishes that you don't see on every other comparable product.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Tell the rest of the story....
> 
> But only 4 have stains on the rotor from being assembled while eating a doughnut. They are secretly the most rare NTH in the world
> 
> Yes, this post is really as stupid as it sounds. I am tired, watching Peppa Pig, and I want late night doughnuts for some unexplainable reason


That ain't donut glaze on your rotor, pal.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I can't speak to the economics involved in producing sunglasses. I'd think they'd be a lot cheaper to make than watches, and probably sold at higher markups, but I'm only speculating.
> 
> As for watches, it isn't just as easy as telling your retail chain, "don't discount, ever", unless the brand is willing to do more than just that, when there's unsold inventory sloshing about.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with your approach, my statement about destroying was some big lux brands. I recall seeing on here how it was listed in their annual report for maybe Cartier, but it was a serious investment. Mind blowing to me


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> Not totally unexplainable...look at your avatar from Pete's sake! Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yeah, good point 😆


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Completely agree with your approach, my statement about destroying was some big lux brands. I recall seeing on here how it was listed in their annual report for maybe Cartier, but it was a serious investment. Mind blowing to me


I think I recall it too, but don't remember the brand. I seem to recall hearing that some luxury brands making other products do it, like Louis Vuitton with their handbags, or some similar brand/product.

Candidly, if you break the assembled watch down, the most valuable component is usually the movement. After that, I'd think it would be the big parts, like cases and bracelets/straps.

Dials and handsets are cheap components, by comparison. Ideally, a brand could just replace the dial and hands in a watch to create a "new" version, like we did with the Ghost Riders.

But even if a brand can only salvage the movement, and they just bin the rest of the parts, there's still a significant savings to be had in re-using those movements.

For me and NTH, showing my retailers that I stand ready to buy back anything they can't sell has had a powerful and surprising psychological result.

It started out as a way for me to convey confidence in the product and my brand, and persuade them that there was less risk in buying that inventory. But gradually, it's somewhat become a sort of power-play.

None of them want me to email them and say, "if you can't sell it, eff it, sell it back to me, and I'll sell it myself, on my website, or just sell it to Keil, and he'll sell it on Watch Gauge." I suspect there's a degree of embarrassment for them, and fear that I'll have something sold within hours of receiving it, after they struggled to sell it for months.

And yes, that has happened, more than once. There are always 40-50 pieces somewhere in the world, that I know for certain would have been sold already, if they were in my inventory, or Keil's.

For me, when that happens, it serves as proof that I'm doing my job, but they weren't. With a lot of retailer-brand relationships, it's exactly the opposite. The brand does a lousy job developing and promoting the brand and its products, then expects the retail chain to work a miracle by selling the unsellable.

Retailers hate that $hlt.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Fridaycuda









Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

That last Scorpene Nomad w/date is something I might buy but not at that price. Not that it's "too" expensive but because it is too much for me to deal with international shipping and the risk involved with long distance shipping (to the US), the currency conversion rate and associated fees, because I still want a Santa Fe, and there's another microbrand that is releasing a watch soon . I know the risk is small, the fees are not extraordinary, and the store owner is very communicative but it's not what I want to deal with right now. If it was at NTH, it'd be on it's way right now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> That last Scorpene Nomad w/date is something I might buy but not at that price. Not that it's "too" expensive but because it is too much for me to deal with international shipping and the risk involved with long distance shipping (to the US), the currency conversion rate and associated fees, because I still want a Santa Fe, and there's another microbrand that is releasing a watch soon . I know the risk is small, the fees are not extraordinary, and the store owner is very communicative but it's not what I want to deal with right now. If it was at NTH, it'd be on it's way right now.


Hence, why I say there are always 40-50 pieces somewhere in the world, which I know would have already been sold had we kept them in the US.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> My mother didn't raise any delicate flowers, but if she did, that would be my little brother.


I really, really hope he's a WUS member...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

josiahg52 said:


> That last Scorpene Nomad w/date is something I might buy but not at that price. Not that it's "too" expensive but because it is too much for me to deal with international shipping and the risk involved with long distance shipping (to the US), the currency conversion rate and associated fees, because I still want a Santa Fe, and there's another microbrand that is releasing a watch soon . I know the risk is small, the fees are not extraordinary, and the store owner is very communicative but it's not what I want to deal with right now. If it was at NTH, it'd be on it's way right now.


I spent a _long_ time looking at that last night. I want a black Scorpene quite a lot.... (Like, I literally would cut off the arm of any one wearing one, just to steal it).
But I'm so spent out from buying watches right now. It's just not right to buy another yet. I have to sell at least a couple of watches first.
So I'm going to wait until I've sold a couple, and a good used one comes up somewhere.

It's particularly galling because it's the 12 hour bezel - so cool.


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

catsteeth said:


> I spent a _long_ time looking at that last night. I want a black Scorpene quite a lot.... (Like, I literally would cut off the arm of any one wearing one, just to steal it).
> But I'm so spent out from buying watches right now. It's just not right to buy another yet. I have to sell at least a couple of watches first.
> So I'm going to wait until I've sold a couple, and a good used one comes up somewhere.
> 
> It's particularly galling because it's the 12 hour bezel - so cool.


I read stuff like this and now I really want to snatch it.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Fridaycuda indeed. Bout halfway through a 5 hour drive, taking a little break. Loving the way it plays with the light (what a effin cliché) and the new strap. This watch is a slow burner for me. Took ages for me to bond with it, until I realized that, for me, this is not a bracelet watch..


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

One of y'all really need to do me a favor and snatch up that Scorpene White DLC from wherever it is in the world, so it stops taunting me. 

BTW, that Scorpene up above was a Nomad before a switch to the Amphion Commando bezel insert. I've also got a regular Scorpene Black bezel insert, in reserve.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I really, really hope he's a WUS member...


Nope.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

Speaking of numbers, Doc, how many of the new Tropics were made? Do you think there will be a third iteration in the future?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> Speaking of numbers, Doc, how many of the new Tropics were made? Do you think there will be a third iteration in the future?


There were 175 in this release. We have the parts to make another 175, so, yeah, I hope to do at least one more release of the same versions from this release.

Beyond that, I don't make too many plans that far in advance.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh, just killed almost the whole day taking my dog back to the vet to get his stitches removed.

There are three ways to get to University of Pennsylvania from where I live. None of them are good. Google Maps said the quickest route would be straight into the city on surface streets, rather than taking either of the long ways around, on the highway.

Philadelphia is officially the worst city in the world to try driving into or out of. It took over an hour to go 14 miles, each way. This was in the middle of the day, not even rush hour.

The entire trip was only about a half a step down from the "Don't go down Broadway" scene from "Escape From New York".

Every few feet, there's a pothole big enough to swallow a car, or some sort of road work being done, or forty cars all trying to merge onto or off of some other road, or the police have the entire block taped off, or a stopped truck, or some other driver running a light, or someone jaywalking.

Over an hour there, over an hour waiting there, then over an hour to get back. No air-conditioning in use, because doggo likes to stick his head out the window.

Just brutal.


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

My daughter went to medical school in Philly (Thomas Jefferson), I spent a lot of time there over 4 years and have a lot of bad driving memories. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

FedEx visited&#8230;trip to jeweler to size (a whopping 5 bucks!) and here we are. Already broken in with dog slobber x 3&#8230;2 Staffordshire Terrier mixes, 60 and 80 pounds, and a Boxer, 60 pounds. First time they got to run the yard in a week due to non stop rain. Better pictures coming as the days go by&#8230;


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

mconlonx said:


> One of y'all really need to do me a favor and snatch up that Scorpene White DLC from wherever it is in the world, so it stops taunting me.
> 
> BTW, that Scorpene up above was a Nomad before a switch to the Amphion Commando bezel insert. I've also got a regular Scorpene Black bezel insert, in reserve.


That one is what got me looking at the Scorpene in the first place. I think I would buy an Amphion bezel to have the option but the 12hr bezel would suffice for now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> FedEx visited&#8230;trip to jeweler to size (a whopping 5 bucks!) and here we are. Already broken in with dog slobber x 3&#8230;2 Staffordshire Terrier mixes, 60 and 80 pounds, and a Boxer, 60 pounds. First time they got to run the yard in a week due to non stop rain. Better pictures coming as the days go by&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 15921934
> 
> ...


Looks awesome.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

So how does one contact our friend in South Korea? Asking for a friend.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Well, it looked like a deeper green in photos. But I still do like it.

New strap day! 









Also. This is my first BluShark. If y'all need/want longer NATOs, this thing is _long. _


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> So how does one contact our friend in South Korea? Asking for a friend.


Email [email protected].

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Email [email protected].
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


I'm terribly conflicted. I really want the Scorpene but I saw a really nice CAI imported Imbel FAL from last century today for a really good price. The watch or the finest battle rifle ever fielded. Tough choice.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

josiahg52 said:


> I'm terribly conflicted. I really want the Scorpene but I saw a really nice CAI imported Imbel FAL from last century today for a really good price. The watch or the finest battle rifle ever fielded. Tough choice.


That's definitely a tough choice. I'd get the watch right now I think though, prices on the other wares are ridiculous currently. Unless you're getting a good deal, then... Obviously, in an ideal scenario, the answer is both!

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> I'm terribly conflicted. I really want the Scorpene but I saw a really nice CAI imported Imbel FAL from last century today for a really good price. The watch or the finest battle rifle ever fielded. Tough choice.


Cue standard WUS response:

Get both


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Mediocre said:


> Cue standard WUS response:
> 
> Get both


Yeah. Yeah, I could do that.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

cghorr01 said:


> That's definitely a tough choice. I'd get the watch right now I think though, prices on the other wares are ridiculous currently. Unless you're getting a good deal, then... Obviously, in an ideal scenario, the answer is both!
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


I'm sort of leaning the same way, getting the watch. The watch is there now but probably won't be for long. The other thing will likely stick around for a bit longer as someone has to really want one.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Birds of poop.....

Sorry I wanted my 4000th post to be epic.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
View attachment 15922474


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Swapped back to my DevilRay on it's orange strap today, not that I'm tired of my Antiles yet, just fancied a change. Oh and that's my dogs paw helping me keep the shot steady


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Stuck at work. Felt like taking a pic of my watch

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> Birds of poop.....
> 
> Sorry I wanted my 4000th post to be epic.
> 
> ...


Ok, I gotta ask, what was the photo? I only get the "attachment" text above. I think I need to see it...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> Ok, I gotta ask, what was the photo? I only get the "attachment" text above. I think I need to see it...


Nah it's a random pic. Just a lume shot I had. Bo big deal

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

dmjonez said:


> Ok, I gotta ask, what was the photo? I only get the "attachment" text above. I think I need to see it...


Same:



> Oops! We ran into some problems.
> You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

If I’m not mistaken, there are 4 different Gilt dial NTH….Amphion, Barracuda, Carolina, DLC Barracuda. Finally managed to round up all 4. Now I need to do a group photo.

Also have an inbound Gilt PRS-25 Smiths Everest, which I read are made by the same watch manufacturer as NTH.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

yankeexpress said:


> If I'm not mistaken, there are 4 different Gilt dial NTH&#8230;.Amphion, Barracuda, Carolina, DLC Barracuda. Finally managed to round up all 4. Now I need to do a group photo.
> 
> Also have an inbound Gilt PRS-25 Smiths Everest, which I read are made by the same watch manufacturer as NTH.


Welcome back?
Havent seen you around here in quite a while. Or anywhere tbh.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> If I'm not mistaken, there are 4 different Gilt dial NTH&#8230;.Amphion, Barracuda, Carolina, DLC Barracuda. Finally managed to round up all 4. Now I need to do a group photo.
> 
> Also have an inbound Gilt PRS-25 Smiths Everest, which I read are made by the same watch manufacturer as NTH.


Where did you read that?


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## zeeper25 (Jul 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Watch Gauge is sold out of the Cointreau, but I'm certain it isn't sold out worldwide. If you're looking for one, Serious has them, they'll strip the VAT out of the price for anyone not in the EU, and they ship free.
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> ...


This is a great discussion, my hunch is a lot of first time visitors purchase because NTH is a known quality watchmaker -- Jordy (JOMW) was very positive about your divers which is why NTW was on my list. Halios made my list because I saw a picture online and loved the simple look -- but couldn't find the watch for sale anywhere (new) prompting my initial question. I am glad I asked my question about how you deal with demand/new factory runs of watches since it has been very enlightening to read the responses here.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Where did you read that?


On the internet....obviously!!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

zeeper25 said:


> This is a great discussion, my hunch is a lot of first time visitors purchase because NTH is a known quality watchmaker -- Jordy (JOMW) was very positive about your divers which is why NTW was on my list. Halios made my list because I saw a picture online and loved the simple look -- but couldn't find the watch for sale anywhere (new) prompting my initial question. I am glad I asked my question about how you deal with demand/new factory runs of watches since it has been very enlightening to read the responses here.


So, as it turns out, Serious Watches is now also sold out of the Cointreau Antilles. It is still available from the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong, IntoWatch in S. Korea, and Five:45 in New Zealand, though for some reason they don't have it listed on their website yet.









The Watchdrobe | NTH Watches 香港官方零售商


What does NTH mean? According to American brand owner Chris Vail, it can be interpreted as a ‘nod to history’ or simply pushing the limits to the ‘nth’ degree.




www.thewatchdrobe.com













인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com













Search: 68 results found for "NTH" – FiveFortyFive


Beautiful men's & women's watches and other gift items, in-store & online, pre-owned & new. Partner Brands include Unimatic, NTH, Boldr, Meccaniche Veneziane, Louis Erard, Wolf, BucknBear and Bell & Ross. We also sell Omega, Rolex, MWC, Seiko, Tag Heuer, Tissot & more.




fivefortyfive.nz


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Back to the Antilles today, this time instead of a nearly 2 year old dog paw we have a 22 year old cat paw.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Back to the Antilles today, this time instead of a nearly 2 year old dog paw we have a 22 year old cat paw.


Wait...your cat is 22 years old? Is it stuffed?

I'm no cat expert, but that sounds almost absurd. I thought cats lived about as long as dogs.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Wait...your cat is 22 years old? Is it stuffed?
> 
> I'm no cat expert, but that sounds almost absurd. I thought cats lived about as long as dogs.


The worlds oldest cat, apparently lived in Austin. It died at 38 years old. '67 to '05. And last year a Maine **** from the UK passed away at 31 years old.

Yes. I just Googled this info.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Bktaper said:


> Stuck at work. Felt like taking a pic of my watch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"Stuck at work. Felt like taking a pic of my watch."
Stuck at work. Felt like looking at a pic of your watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

The kitten I was given in 1978 lived until 2002 and got smarter with age. She could open doors by climbing up and standing on the handle. Cats... last.
Doc - no doubt you have answered this plenty of times before (my google-fu fails me) - is there any chance of a Gilt Amphion reissue? And if so.... timeline?


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Ozludo said:


> Doc - no doubt you have answered this plenty of times before (my google-fu fails me) - is there any chance of a Gilt Amphion reissue? And if so.... timeline?


Doc suggested some months ago that he might do a Gilt Amphion in the Sub v2 case. I've been lurking hopefully ever since, but haven't heard anything else. That said, I don't read every WoT in its entirety, so maybe there have been updates that I missed.


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

Coriolanus said:


> Doc suggested some months ago that he might do a Gilt Amphion in the Sub v2 case.


Aieeeeee! Doc - take my money!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Azzuauro got the nod this morning.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

AVG in a v2 case would be the ultimate MilSub in my book. I wouldn't hold my breath though. IIRC the Amphion is not on the roadmap for a future release.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ozludo said:


> The kitten I was given in 1978 lived until 2002 and got smarter with age. She could open doors by climbing up and standing on the handle. Cats... last.
> Doc - no doubt you have answered this plenty of times before (my google-fu fails me) - is there any chance of a Gilt Amphion reissue? And if so.... timeline?


No current plans, so no current timeline.


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

docvail said:


> No current plans, so no current timeline.



But thank you for responding immediately


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This little beauty has been on my wrist for the last week while I was stuck in hospital with a torn calf muscle. Everything swelled up so having a watch on a nice rubber strap enabled me to adjust on the fly.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

yankeexpress said:


> If I'm not mistaken, there are 4 different Gilt dial NTH&#8230;.Amphion, Barracuda, Carolina, DLC Barracuda. Finally managed to round up all 4. Now I need to do a group photo.
> 
> Also have an inbound Gilt PRS-25 Smiths Everest, which I read are made by the same watch manufacturer as NTH.


Actually, there are TWO gilt dialed Amphions. Mine is the Amphion Dark Gilt from the first release of the Subs. The other is in the same group as the Barracuda, Carolina etc. Note the location of the date window.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Today, just because.


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

Omegafanboy said:


> This little beauty has been on my wrist for the last week while I was stuck in hospital with a torn calf muscle. Everything swelled up so having a watch on a nice rubber strap enabled me to adjust on the fly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh man, I feel your pain. Tore my calf muscle jumping off a diving board. I didn't require hospitalization but was in a boot and on crutches for a month and it took a full year before it was completely healed. That's a nasty injury. Wish that watch was still available, it's my favorite of the NTH's.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - "gilt" dial - it helps if we all use the same, overly-specific terms to mean the same things...

"Gilt relief" - these are the "negative-relief" printed dials (though not literally printed), currently seen in the Barracuda Vintage Black, and currently only the BVB. The dial plate is gold-plated, then the areas intended to show through are masked off. The dial is electro-plated black (not really "printed"), then the masking pulled back to reveal the gold plated dial underneath.

We previously used this technique to make the "Amphion Vintage Gilt" (produced in 2020), and prior to that, the Carolina project for the BSHT guys.

"Gilt" - honestly, I think it's BS that every a-hole in the industry and market wants to call gold-plating / gold-printing "gilt", but whatevs, I'm still not the world's supreme leader (yet), I only live here. But in most cases, what this means is the hands are gold-plated, the dial has applied markers, which are also gold-plated, and any "gold" on the dial is simply printing in that color, not really "gold".

This is how the dial / hands are for the Barracuda Brown, and how they were for the Barracuda Blue, and what we called the "Amphion Dark Gilt", made in 2017.

We may or may not make more of any Amphion, or either of the previous "gilt" versions (Dark Gilt, or Vintage Gilt), but currently, we have no plans to make more of either.

Just the fact that there's confusion about it makes me semi-regret that I made both, with similar names.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Before anyone asks why we don't make the Barracuda Brown (or blue) the same way as the Barracuda Vintage Black (i.e, with the gilt-relief technique)...

It can't be done.

Whereas we can *print* a dial in any Pantone color we want, the gilt-relief dials aren't actually "printed", they're electro-plated, and we are limited in the electroplating colors which are available to us. It's basically, black, gold, silver/gray, and (I think) white.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Beach afternoon!


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Wait...your cat is 22 years old? Is it stuffed?
> 
> I'm no cat expert, but that sounds almost absurd. I thought cats lived about as long as dogs.


Yup she is 22 Doc. Grumpy, kinda matted in places but still eats, then forgets she's eaten so yells for more, then yells at you for feeding her. She's had a few adventures and lost almost all of her nine lives but she still gives the dogs a hard time and they are petrified of her, especially when she growls.


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## bes-b2 (Jan 16, 2009)

I love coming back to this thread and reading all the new discussions and insight from Doc. Here's my Odin on a tropic:


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## whatisk (Mar 5, 2020)

Been looking at getting either an Antilles Cointreau or Dark Rum while there are still some in the wild. I was sure I registered my details to be informed when they became available, but didn't receive anything and when checking the site one day saw they were all sold out. Anyway, I'm having difficulty deciding on which - and no, getting both isn't an option unfortunately. So I've been searching trying to find some real world pics of both rather than 'studio' shots to hopefully make the choice easier.
I like the pop of the Cointreau and it was intially my pick. However, I did like the fade to black to the crown of the Dark Rum but the centre seemed a bit dark. However, the real world pics I've seen make it seem as though it's not as dark as I first thought.
While I know it comes down to personal choice in the end, just wondering on any feedback from here that might help. I have seen the pics posted by Gavindavie and that was one of the reasons that started making me second guess my decision and think maybe the Dark Rum.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just the fact that there's confusion about it makes me semi-regret that I made both, with similar names.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Yup she is 22 Doc. Grumpy, kinda matted in places but still eats, then forgets she's eaten so yells for more, then yells at you for feeding her. She's had a few adventures and lost almost all of her nine lives but she still gives the dogs a hard time and they are petrified of her, especially when she growls.


Grumpy, crazy cats are kind of hysterical.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

whatisk said:


> Been looking at getting either an Antilles Cointreau or Dark Rum while there are still some in the wild. I was sure I registered my details to be informed when they became available, but didn't receive anything and when checking the site one day saw they were all sold out. Anyway, I'm having difficulty deciding on which - and no, getting both isn't an option unfortunately. So I've been searching trying to find some real world pics of both rather than 'studio' shots to hopefully make the choice easier.
> I like the pop of the Cointreau and it was intially my pick. However, I did like the fade to black to the crown of the Dark Rum but the centre seemed a bit dark. However, the real world pics I've seen make it seem as though it's not as dark as I first thought.
> While I know it comes down to personal choice in the end, just wondering on any feedback from here that might help. I have seen the pics posted by Gavindavie and that was one of the reasons that started making me second guess my decision and think maybe the Dark Rum.


So...the reason the NTH website is sold out is two-fold. We had 20 pieces that didn't pass QC, which had to go back for some parts re-making and re-assembly. Our retailers already bought the rest, so we haven't had any inventory we could sell.

I know Watch Gauge and Serious Watches are both sold out of the Cointreau, for now. 5 of those pieces that went back to be re-made were Cointreaus, so hopefully we'll have them back and available soon.

In the meantime, the Cointreau is still available from Intowatch in Korea, the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong, and Five:45 in New Zealand, though for some reason, it's not on the 545 website yet (you might email them about it).

I'm positive we sent out an email blast to all our email newsletter subscribers about the Antilles and Azores being available, with links to our retailers' websites. Perhaps take a look at your spam / junk mail folders. It seems that no matter how many times I "white-list" our own email address, the blasts often still end up there when I get them.

Additionally, over the last 2-3 months, we launched a new website, and have been in the midst of changing email blast services. At some point, there was a "Notify me when this product becomes available" feature turned on, when it should not have been.

If you used it, your email should have been added to our general list (I think), such that you should still get the email blasts, even if you didn't receive any specific notification about new stock of a particular model, which you wouldn't have gotten, since we never added any inventory to our site (hence, why that "notify me" feature shouldn't be turned on).

With color-faded ("fumé") dials, the appearance in online pics really varies a lot with light conditions and the camera used.

Because the Azores was available sooner, there haven't been as many customer pics of either Antilles version posted online yet, but I'll see if I can grab a few to post...

Here's one of both, side-by-side, from Serious -

__
http://instagr.am/p/CPaZmLltHTm/

Cointreau on the bracelet from one customer, Dark Rum on the strap from another...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> View attachment 15928429


I love that movie, and that scene.

Maybe "regret" was a bit over-the-top. I often wish some aspects of running this business were simpler than they are.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, regarding "fumé" dials...

Perhaps Moser or the like is still making them the old-fashioned way, holding a lacquered dial over a lit candle ("fumé" being French for "smoke"), allowing the heat to thin and spread the color outward towards the edge. But otherwise, and as far as I know, no one does that any more.

In actuality, they're air-brushed, by hand, as opposed to pad or screen printed. As a result, every dial is ever so slightly different. It's possible to find pics showing how one dial's fade seems slightly different than another's.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, I got multiple NTH and Watchgauge emails, plus announcement here and on FB. Honestly, if there's one thing WG and NTH are doing right, it's keeping customers informed...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of gilt Amphions, there's one for auction on eBay (NOT my listing):









NTH Amphion Watch Black Dial Vintage Gilt | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH Amphion Watch Black Dial Vintage Gilt at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I saw some recent discussion, elsewhere on the forums, regarding some "aspirational" pricing of watches on the used market. I just saw some examples while reviewing the NTH listings on eBay. 

There's a listing for a Nacken Vintage White (the full-lume dial), with a buy-it-now price of $750, which is more than they sold for, new. Yes, they're sold out now, and we only made 100, total, but still, I reckon that may be a hard sell (though I'll be rooting for the seller to get every penny of it).

There's a Santa Cruz for $900, which is eyebrow-raising, considering that model is not currently sold out, and can be purchased new from our site or our retailers', for $200 less.

I can't help finding it amusing when comments in these discussions reflect some degree of anger towards the sellers, whether the situation is like either of these two, or the ones involving so-called "profiteers", or "speculators", the guys who buy up limited production pieces, then list them for more as soon as the model is sold out, whether that be instantly, or over a year later.

It's a free market, at least somewhat, and for now, whether we like it or not.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

whatisk said:


> Been looking at getting either an Antilles Cointreau or Dark Rum while there are still some in the wild. I was sure I registered my details to be informed when they became available, but didn't receive anything and when checking the site one day saw they were all sold out. Anyway, I'm having difficulty deciding on which - and no, getting both isn't an option unfortunately. So I've been searching trying to find some real world pics of both rather than 'studio' shots to hopefully make the choice easier.
> I like the pop of the Cointreau and it was intially my pick. However, I did like the fade to black to the crown of the Dark Rum but the centre seemed a bit dark. However, the real world pics I've seen make it seem as though it's not as dark as I first thought.
> While I know it comes down to personal choice in the end, just wondering on any feedback from here that might help. I have seen the pics posted by Gavindavie and that was one of the reasons that started making me second guess my decision and think maybe the Dark Rum.


I'll be honest, I swithered between the two colours and dark rum won not just because it was the only one available in the UK but also as I grew to appreciate the colour in the images. It (as I have already said) is so much better IRL. I missed the traffic lights change today as I was admiring it on my wrist.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> I saw some recent discussion, elsewhere on the forums, regarding some "aspirational" pricing of watches on the used market. I just saw some examples while reviewing the NTH listings on eBay.
> 
> There's a listing for a Nacken Vintage White (the full-lume dial), with a buy-it-now price of $750, which is more than they sold for, new. Yes, they're sold out now, and we only made 100, total, but still, I reckon that may be a hard sell (though I'll be rooting for the seller to get every penny of it).
> 
> ...


The Threshers are priced crazy on there. At least to me when I could get a new one for ~$750 or my nearly-new for ~$650. I'd almost consider a DLC Thresher (or probably a Swiftsure for variety) if I don't get a Scorpene Nomad, Azores, or find a Santa Fe, or get some other NTH but not at $1000+. I don't begrudge them. I just don't understand it or what it accomplishes for them.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

NTH watches are lucky, get yours NOW! I just won $100 on a $10 scratch off while wearing this. Coincidence? IMPOSSIBLE


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> The Threshers are priced crazy on there. At least to me when I could get a new one for ~$750 or my nearly-new for ~$650. I'd almost consider a DLC Thresher (or probably a Swiftsure for variety) if I don't get a Scorpene Nomad, Azores, or find a Santa Fe, or get some other NTH but not at $1000+. I don't begrudge them. I just don't understand it or what it accomplishes for them.


I believe the Threshers you're seeing on eBay are from international, not US sellers. Specifically, I see some listed by Serious Watches, our AD in the Netherlands. The prices include the ~21% VAT, and may also reflect some changes in currency exchange rates since he bought that inventory, or perhaps even some allowance for eBay's increasingly ridiculous sellers' fees.

As for the individuals in the US and elsewhere pricing things aspirationally...

I've seen instances of people who were simply too dumb / crazy to realize how outlandish their expectations were. But I've also seen speculation that some sellers are almost making a sport of it, putting up various watches for ridiculously high prices, just in the hopes that some sucker will come along and pay it.

I think I've also read some discussion about possible schemes involving multiple listings at various prices, with the intent of making the lower priced listing seem like a bargain to anyone who's also seen the higher priced listings. I vaguely recall some speculation about money laundering schemes, other fraudulent activity, and much worse (in terms of good vs. evil) explanations.


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## joeax61 (Jan 29, 2019)

Just joined the NTH club today, courtesy of The Watcher! Love this watch!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

joeax61 said:


> Just joined the NTH club today, courtesy of The Watcher! Love this watch!
> View attachment 15929184


Congratulations! Great color combo too!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

joeax61 said:


> Just joined the NTH club today, courtesy of The Watcher! Love this watch!


Indeed, congrats, and although he doesn't post much, the Watcher is always watching, and he's a solid dude.

Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


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## joeax61 (Jan 29, 2019)

docvail said:


> Indeed, congrats, and although he doesn't post much, the Watcher is always watching, and he's a solid dude.
> 
> Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


I sure will Doc, thank you very much for the kind words! My only regret is that I haven't bought one until now! Cheers, Joe


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...it appears the Cointreau is sold out in the USA, the EU, and the UK.

As far as I can tell, it is still available from IntoWatch in Korea, The Watchdrobe in Hong Kong, and Five:45 in New Zealand (where, again, for reasons I can't fathom, none of the Tropics appear on their website). Email [email protected] if you want to order from Korea. Five:45's generic email address appears to be [email protected].

We could have as many as 5 more Cointreaus made available within the next 30 days, assuming my vendors can sort out the issues we had with them, and return them to us in short order.

Meanwhile, and this is a strange thing - it seems that whereas Watch Gauge in the US has been killing it with the no-date versions of the Azores, Serious Watches in the EU is just the opposite, and seeing more sales for the with-date versions. The numbers are so lopsided that I've suggested they do a 1:1 trade of inventory, for about 12-14 pieces.

I don't think we've ever seen that happen before, and for the life of me, I can't imagine why their sales have played out that way. Are people in the EU more interested in having a with-date, versus people in the US more interested in no-dates? That seems pretty unlikely.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I much prefer a date. Especially when it's done right. Like it at 6 o'clock. 3 o'clock is okay. Other spots also. Just don't prefer it when it replaces lume.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

josiahg52 said:


> I much prefer a date. Especially when it's done right. Like it at 6 o'clock. 3 o'clock is okay. Other spots also. Just don't prefer it when it replaces lume.


Agree 100%. Date on the Azores model is perfect; small and unassuming between two indices @ 4.2. Lots of watch designers could take a cue from this.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

josiahg52 said:


> I much prefer a date. Especially when it's done right. Like it at 6 o'clock. 3 o'clock is okay. Other spots also. Just don't prefer it when it replaces lume.





Lab4Us said:


> Agree 100%. Date on the Azores model is perfect; small and unassuming between two indices @ 4.2. Lots of watch designers could take a cue from this.


Should add that I don't prefer when it ENTIRELY replaces the lume. The Thresher is good execution. Plenty of lume left over.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Agree 100%. Date on the Azores model is perfect; small and unassuming between two indices @ 4.2. Lots of watch designers could take a cue from this.


And yet, you can't chuck a rock in this forum and not hit someone railing against date windows at 4, 4:30, or anywhere in between.

I could have been selling water heaters...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fun fact about the circular date window on the Azores/Antilles, and some of the early Subs models...

I had to fight with my vendor to get them to make the window as large as it is. They insisted it needed to be smaller, otherwise the adjacent date numbers would show around the edges. I said just the opposite - it needed to be larger, otherwise the current date's numbers would be cut off (which is exactly what happened when they made the date window how they wanted it, on those early Subs).

We didn't just argue about this once. We argued about it at least twice, maybe three times.

I actually had to draw them a picture to demonstrate. I would love to show it to you, because your mind would be blown at how awesome my drawing skills aren't. But I can't find it, because I'm a lazy dumba$$ with a bad habit of saving files without giving them a descriptive name, so I've got multiple folders with file names like "publication1", and "publication2".

Literally, I just looked through 2 dozen files in half a dozen folders, and couldn't find it.

Just believe me, your mind would be blown.

Long story short - I was right about the date window.

Also, I'm bad at drawing, and bad at naming files.


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## whatisk (Mar 5, 2020)

docvail said:


> So...the reason the NTH website is sold out is two-fold. We had 20 pieces that didn't pass QC, which had to go back for some parts re-making and re-assembly. Our retailers already bought the rest, so we haven't had any inventory we could sell.
> 
> ...........
> 
> ...


Thank you for the detailed response and providing some additional pics. Perhaps I tried to sign up using the Notify Me when it shouldn't have been there - or I could have just done something incorrectly, as I always check through spam before deleting. All good though as I actually need to decide which to get first!



gavindavie said:


> I'll be honest, I swithered between the two colours and dark rum won not just because it was the only one available in the UK but also as I grew to appreciate the colour in the images. It (as I have already said) is so much better IRL. I missed the traffic lights change today as I was admiring it on my wrist.


Thanks for posting the additional pic.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Fun fact about the circular date window on the Azores/Antilles, and some of the early Subs models...
> 
> I had to fight with my vendor to get them to make the window as large as it is. They insisted it needed to be smaller, otherwise the adjacent date numbers would show around the edges. I said just the opposite - it needed to be larger, otherwise the current date's numbers would be cut off (which is exactly what happened when they made the date window how they wanted it, on those early Subs).
> 
> ...


Doc is bad at something. Mind blown.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I saw some recent discussion, elsewhere on the forums, regarding some "aspirational" pricing of watches on the used market. I just saw some examples while reviewing the NTH listings on eBay.
> 
> There's a listing for a Nacken Vintage White (the full-lume dial), with a buy-it-now price of $750, which is more than they sold for, new. Yes, they're sold out now, and we only made 100, total, but still, I reckon that may be a hard sell (though I'll be rooting for the seller to get every penny of it).
> 
> ...


If it's been pointed out already apologies.

The "buy in now price" can be ridiculous because it has to be at least 35% (or 50% - I can't remember) more than the starting bid price.
Its an attempt to make people use low initial prices, to start the bidding. Which you then have to pay extra for having a minimum reserve sale price for.
So I start my sales with the lowest I'm happy to accept. Which can make the buy it now price stupid high.

For example.
I buy a brand new watch for £400.
Wear it twice and put it up for _auction_ at reasonable £330.
The "_buy it now_" price at 1/3 more is £440! (330+110)
That's more than the original new watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> If it's been pointed out already apologies.
> 
> The "buy in now price" can be ridiculous because it has to be at least 35% (or 50% - I can't remember) more than the starting bid price.
> Its an attempt to make people use low initial prices, to start the bidding. Which you then have to pay extra for having a minimum reserve sale price for.
> ...


It hasn't been pointed out. If it has, I don't remember it.

I don't have very much selling or buying on eBay. So it's entirely possible I'm mistaken, but just looking at the two listings I was talking about, it doesn't appear that they're auctions. They just appear to be regular sales listings, with some ambitious asking prices.

But I'm open to being corrected if I'm wrong.









NTH Santa Cruz Date | eBay


Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic, rugged style with modern capabilities. Think of it as neo-classic.



www.ebay.com













NTH Näcken Vintage White Divers Watch - Nacken, full lume dial | eBay


<p>NTH Näcken Vintage White Divers Watch - Nacken. Condition is "Pre-owned". Shipped with USPS First Class.</p><br><p>Up for sale is an NTH Nacken with “vintage white” dial. This is a very cool dial as it has full lume with black indices and snowflake hands. Movement is automatic. Watch is in...



www.ebay.com





Like I said, $750 for a used Nacken Vintage White isn't too outrageous, I suppose, if someone thinks they're more in demand than I may realize, and inasmuch as they're currently sold out.

But $900 for a Santa Cruz, when you can get one new, from our site or some of our retailers, for $700, seems like someone is just chumming the waters with sucker-bait.

If nothing else, I do love the seller's username, "Special Hoss". That's just funny on multiple levels.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...Nazario Sauro is now sold out. We won't be making more of those, so hopefully if you wanted one, you got one.

The Antilles Cointreau appears to be the best-selling Tropics version, so far, if we don't combine the date & no-date versions of the other designs. It's sold out in the US, the EU, and the UK, at least until we get more in.

Color me surprised. I think I said this already, but if not - it was the last version we designed, more or less an afterthought. I didn't expect it to be as strong a seller as it's turned out to be.

Like we say at the poker table, I'd rather be lucky than good.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> It hasn't been pointed out. If it has, I don't remember it.
> 
> I don't have very much selling or buying on eBay. So it's entirely possible I'm mistaken, but just looking at the two listings I was talking about, it doesn't appear that they're auctions. They just appear to be regular sales listings, with some ambitious asking prices.
> 
> ...


Yeah they're straight sales. Like you say ambitious.... 🤔

I agree the Santa Cruz is sucker-bait.. Although your comment about money laundering is true too.
The Nacken looks great in those pictures. Perhaps he's hoping its sold-out status is enough as you said. Black bezel, white dial divers are very striking and popular too.


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## Siddy (Dec 12, 2019)

FedEx just dropped this off. Really happy with it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Yeah they're straight sales. Like you say ambitious.... 🤔
> 
> I agree the Santa Cruz is sucker-bait.. Although your comment about money laundering is true too.
> The Nacken looks great in those pictures. Perhaps he's hoping its sold-out status is enough as you said. Black bezel, white dial divers are very striking and popular too.


Speaking of money-laundering...

A few weeks back, I mentioned seeing a suspicious, possibly fraudulent sale come through the site, but paid using PayPal, which was very unusual until that time. Since we shipped that order, we got 2 more.

As advised to do by the first PayPal employee I spoke to, we waited 1 week to ship both the first and second orders. In both cases, it appeared we'd be protected by PayPal's "seller protection" policy, and since we were shipping with FedEx, I wasn't overly concerned.

The 3rd order came through on Friday, and I immediately smelled a rat. All three were from the same part of the world, in fact the same town, one known for all sorts of criminal enterprises - Mexico City.

And, of course, the first of the 3 orders turned into a dispute last week. But, again, since PayPal told me I was covered by PayPal seller protection, I wasn't concerned, as the order had already been delivered.

So, before I shipped the 3rd order, I called PayPal again on Monday, just wanting to once again confirm with them if there was any way to determine if these orders were legit or frauds. Just as I was dialing, I spotted that the second order is also now being disputed.

Prepare to be outraged...

So, it seems that even though I shipped to the addresses PayPal told me were "confirmed", and both orders were delivered to those addresses, the 2nd rep I spoke to pointed out that the payors' accounts were not "verified".

What's that? Come again?

Confirmed address, eligible for seller protection:










And yet, somehow, PayPal never verified the payor's banking info:










I don't know if this is the same everywhere in the world, but here in the US, when you open a PayPal account, they send 2 small deposits to your bank, like $0.11 and $0.09. Then, to verify your ownership of the bank account, you have to provide them with the total amount of those two deposits.

Well, apparently, whereas they won't let anyone in the US send or receive a nickel without verifying their banking info six ways to Sunday, they'll let any hombre south of the border skate on that requirement. It seems that "some folks just don't have bank accounts", so they connect PayPal to their credit cards, which I don't think you can do if you're in the US.

And this is how the scam works. The fraudsters create a PayPal account with a legit address, which PayPal "confirms", but instead of connecting the account to their bank, they connect it to a credit card. Instead of disputing the charge with PayPal, they dispute it with their credit card company.

They're counting on merchants like me to be lulled into a false sense of security by PayPal's seller protection. They probably don't even want the watches, and plan to sell them in the street for pennies on the dollar, or perhaps re-list them on eBay - illegal activities bearing suddenly legal and fully documented proceeds.

Of course, I didn't ship the 3rd watch. I just canceled and refunded.

But the PayPal rep told me that it's most likely the credit card company will charge PayPal back for the funds I received on the two orders I did ship, and so of course PayPal will be charging me back.

There's a possibility PayPal may not, or that somehow, justice will prevail here, and the credit card company will tell the crook to get f**ked, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable phone call I'll have to make to PayPal, in which I point out that I never would have shipped the first two orders had the first rep I spoke to pointed out what the 2nd rep did, and given me the same explanation I only got later, after I shipped the first two.

$1500, gone in a puff of smoke.

Caveat emptor, meet caveat venditor - let the seller beware.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Siddy said:


> FedEx just dropped this off. Really happy with it.
> 
> View attachment 15931776


Great shot, and as luck would have it, there appears to be an open slot within that image in your signature block.

Just sayin'...


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## Siddy (Dec 12, 2019)

docvail said:


> Great shot, and as luck would have it, there appears to be an open slot within that image in your signature block.
> 
> Just sayin'...


Updated!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Siddy said:


> Updated!


That's actually a very cool collection. A bit of something for everyone, I think.

EDIT/PS - I'm stealing your image above so I can make it the banner image of the NTH Fans group on FB.


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## Siddy (Dec 12, 2019)

docvail said:


> That's actually a very cool collection. A bit of something for everyone, I think.
> 
> EDIT/PS - I'm stealing your image above so I can make it the banner image of the NTH Fans group on FB.


Thank you and that's awesome, I'm honored.


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Just to add to the PayPal conversation, I am in the U.S. and my PP account is only connected to my CC's. I never felt comfortable giving PP access to my bank accounts. Been this way for at least 6 or 7 years.


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## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> $1500, gone in a puff of smoke.


Well THAT is a bunch of BS! I sometimes wonder if some of these people spent this time and mental energy on something useful instead of finding new ways to commit fraud, if we wouldn't have solved world hunger and at least a few serious diseases.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

shrewboy said:


> Well THAT is a bunch of BS! I sometimes wonder if some of these people spent this time and mental energy on something useful instead of finding new ways to commit fraud, if we wouldn't have solved world hunger and at least a few serious diseases.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, well if major companies are going to pony up millions in ransom when their IT systems get hijacked.. thinking JBS foods just coughed up 14.2 million to unlock their systems... then unfortunately these soft crimes are going to proliferate... there's just no risk, particularly if you're operating out of a third world country.

The prices we pay for a global economy..

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Speaking of money-laundering...
> 
> A few weeks back, I mentioned seeing a suspicious, possibly fraudulent sale come through the site, but paid using PayPal, which was very unusual until that time. Since we shipped that order, we got 2 more.
> 
> ...


Wow. That sucks. Massively

Is everyone outside of the US unverified? Can you still be verified outside the US if you have a bank account? Otherwise why would you send anything to anyone abroad ever again? It's madness, what is PayPal doing, apart from turning you over, twice !!

You phoned up! Why didn't pp tell you the Mexicans are unverified? What a bunch of shysters.

Buyer protection is brilliant now.... But as I've found on eBay as a seller it's easy to be stiffed. I cancel half my sales because they don't have enough positive references, but it'd be no way to run a business 🤦‍♂️


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Antilles, the "serious" lineup from the Tropics. 
Azores, the "fun" lineup.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Looking good Billy Ray!

Feeling good, Winthorp!

















This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## reeder1 (Feb 10, 2017)

Do any of you all have a good method of installing the new NTH fitted rubber strap. I get so close…
I get one side in and get the strap inside the lugs-I even get the spring bar inside the lugs but I can’t get it as far as the lug hole. I’m sure MANY are craftier than me and any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance and apologies if this has been covered already!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> Just to add to the PayPal conversation, I am in the U.S. and my PP account is only connected to my CC's. I never felt comfortable giving PP access to my bank accounts. Been this way for at least 6 or 7 years.


Maybe I'm confused because I have a commercial seller's account with PayPal, so I had to connect my bank account. It's not just a way for me to pay, it's a way for me to get paid. How would that work if the account was only connected to a credit card? I don't think it could be done.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shrewboy said:


> Well THAT is a bunch of BS! I sometimes wonder if some of these people spent this time and mental energy on something useful instead of finding new ways to commit fraud, if we wouldn't have solved world hunger and at least a few serious diseases.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Desperate people do desperate things, I s'pose.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Yeah, well if major companies are going to pony up millions in ransom when their IT systems get hijacked.. thinking JBS foods just coughed up 14.2 million to unlock their systems... then unfortunately these soft crimes are going to proliferate... there's just no risk, particularly if you're operating out of a third world country.
> 
> The prices we pay for a global economy..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Indeed, in my experience and observation, there are few if any consequences for anyone engaging in small-time credit card fraud, or in this case, small-time PayPal fraud. However many billions of dollars it may cost businesses and individuals each year, it seems like the various law enforcement agencies simply don't have the resources or the inclination to go after the small fish.

What I don't understand is why the various banks and financial institutions don't do more to stop it. Even if they can pull the money back from my business, they only have that ability so long as the money is actually there, in my account. What do they do if the money isn't there? File a lien against my bank, or my business? Good luck collecting if I'm out of business.

We caught one fraud for over $16,000. The bank credited our account for the money that was taken, so we were made whole. But they then had to go and get that money from PayPal, assuming they were able to. If so, I can't imagine that PayPal was able to get it back from the people who took it. They had to be in the wind by that time, over a month later.

I was flabbergasted to see how ineffectual so many of the financial institutions are. All anyone has to do is get the routing number and account number for your bank account, and they can use that info to pay their own credit card balances, or attach a PayPal account to it. The only thing the bank can do to stop it from happening is prevent all such transfers, even the legitimate ones we all do every day, to pay bills online.

The second time it happened with my business account, I decided to upgrade to a "treasury" account with the bank. I had to provide them with info for every vendor I might pay, and every retailer or financial institution which might send me a payment. Just maintaining the account costs me $200-$300 per month in various fees, whereas the old, regular account only cost me $40 whenever I sent or received an international wire transfer, but otherwise it cost me nothing at all, other than some minimal annual maintenance fees.

As long as we're here, in a watch forum - I see similar scams on Kickstarter. Some of the projects just turn out to be outright frauds. If someone fraudulently takes money from my bank account, at least the bank will make me whole. Kickstarter takes no responsibility, and does nothing to help project backers who never received the pledge rewards they were promised.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Wow. That sucks. Massively
> 
> Is everyone outside of the US unverified? Can you still be verified outside the US if you have a bank account? Otherwise why would you send anything to anyone abroad ever again? It's madness, what is PayPal doing, apart from turning you over, twice !!
> 
> ...


Like I said in an earlier post today, maybe I had to verify my bank account so that I could connect PayPal to my website, so that I can also receive payments, not just send them. Perhaps people not verifying accounts is more common than I realized, be they here in the US, or abroad.

It's just surprising to me, now, because in the previous 8 years running this business, we never had a fraud happen with PayPal. Particularly when we've had a customer outside the USA, PayPal has been our go-to alternative for any customer - legitimate or not - who couldn't get through checkout with a credit card, which is fairly common with customers outside the US.

I always viewed a sale using PayPal as being legitimate, and rarely if ever needed to take a closer look at any of them, until the last 30 days.

In the 8 years prior, I think we lost 2, maybe 3 watches to credit card fraud. Suddenly, we lost 2 in just 2-3 weeks, but involving PayPal.

I'm just waiting to see how these two disputed charges play out. I'm expecting PayPal to pull the money back from my account. At which point, I'll phone them up, and scream bloody murder that one of their employees gave me terrible guidance when I called, trying to do my part to prevent fraud.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

reeder1 said:


> Do any of you all have a good method of installing the new NTH fitted rubber strap. I get so close&#8230;
> I get one side in and get the strap inside the lugs-I even get the spring bar inside the lugs but I can't get it as far as the lug hole. I'm sure MANY are craftier than me and any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance and apologies if this has been covered already!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk











This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


DevilRay back on its bracelet now that I am home from the ship. I'm leaving fitting my new rubber strap till later, any top tips to make it an easier fit?




www.watchuseek.com


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

docvail said:


> Fun fact about the circular date window on the Azores/Antilles, and some of the early Subs models...
> 
> I had to fight with my vendor to get them to make the window as large as it is. They insisted it needed to be smaller, otherwise the adjacent date numbers would show around the edges. I said just the opposite - it needed to be larger, otherwise the current date's numbers would be cut off (which is exactly what happened when they made the date window how they wanted it, on those early Subs).
> 
> ...


Smaller date window! I already need my cheaters to see it now on my Azores! I agree on the placement too, as others have said, best spot without replacing a number or marker.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...after whinging about PayPal and frauds, I got frustrated enough to call PayPal, in order to get my gripe "on the record", so to speak.

Turns out, we may have some good news here.

In the case of the second dispute filed, which was actually for the first transaction, I'm now being told I am in fact covered by PayPal's seller protection, even if it was in fact a fraudulent order, so long as I can prove I shipped to the confirmed address (which I did), and that the order was delivered (which it was). So long as the customer doesn't claim the goods were other than as described, or that I otherwise didn't fulfill the order properly, I'm good on that one.

The first dispute, which is on the second transaction, apparently isn't actually a dispute, yet.

It seems that PayPal put a temporary hold on the funds (or so they would have, ordinarily), in anticipation of the order being disputed, because they spotted something fishy with it. If nothing happens in the next 21 days - no dispute by the customer - then the funds are released. 

However, being a long-standing PayPal merchant with good, erm, standing, I have "funds now", which means I already received the funds, despite PayPal ostensibly putting some sort of "hold" on them.

It ends up being a distinction without a difference. I have more money in my PP account. They could just take it back, money being fungible. But, even if the customer files a dispute, then I think things are likely to go the same way as with the current dispute - I'll still be covered by PayPal seller protection.

All that good news for me aside, I still don't get how PayPal allows this stuff to happen, or why the first guy I talked to didn't tell me not to ship that first order. It's great for me, that I'll get to keep the money, but either PayPal or some other financial institution will likely get screwed for $1500.

Assuming this stuff happens hundreds of times, to hundreds of merchants, every day, that's...let me see here...carry the four...jumpin' jiminy!!! $132M each year.

I suppose we all know it's in fact many multiples of that. Surely there are thousands of crooks just sitting at a computer, pulling this $hlt every waking moment of their day.


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> Maybe I'm confused because I have a commercial seller's account with PayPal, so I had to connect my bank account. It's not just a way for me to pay, it's a way for me to get paid. How would that work if the account was only connected to a credit card? I don't think it could be done.


It can be done as it's how I've always done it. When I make a purchase, PP takes me to a page which lists the 4 CC's linked to my account, I select which card I want to charge my purchase to. On a couple of CC's I can choose to use rewards earned towards purchases. Why not just use a CC to pay for purchases? Because by using PP, the vendor never has access to my personal information, a lesson I learned the hard way.

I bought 2 Orient Tritons from the Orient USA website, using a brand new CC on a brand new account. Almost immediately, I got notifications that there were purchases made using my CC for plane tickets etc. I contacted the CC company and reported the charges as fraudulent. I then contacted Orient USA to report that someone at their company was stealing customer information and using that information to make fraudulent purchases. The manager said that it was "impossible" because they don't have access to complete customer information. I then asked how it would be possible that the first and only time a CC number was used, that it could be used for fraudulent purposes if someone at their company wasn't stealing customer information. The manager said he would look into it.... As a side note, Orient USA started taking PP shortly after my complaint.

As far as receiving funds, if it's a refund from a vendor, it appears as a credit/debit on my CC statement. Any money sent directly to me is held in my PP "account", with PP effectively acting as a bank for those funds. I can then spend those funds the same way people who have linked to a bank account can. I admit I am not comfortable leaving funds with PP, so I usually find a way to use the money before too much time passes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> It can be done as it's how I've always done it. When I make a purchase, PP takes me to a page which lists the 4 CC's linked to my account, I select which card I want to charge my purchase to. On a couple of CC's I can choose to use rewards earned towards purchases. Why not just use a CC to pay for purchases? Because by using PP, the vendor never has access to my personal information, a lesson I learned the hard way.
> 
> I bought 2 Orient Tritons from the Orient USA website, using a brand new CC on a brand new account. Almost immediately, I got notifications that there were purchases made using my CC for plane tickets etc. I contacted the CC company and reported the charges as fraudulent. I then contacted Orient USA to report that someone at their company was stealing customer information and using that information to make fraudulent purchases. The manager said that it was "impossible" because they don't have access to complete customer information. I then asked how it would be possible that the first and only time a CC number was used, that it could be used for fraudulent purposes if someone at their company wasn't stealing customer information. The manager said he would look into it.... As a side note, Orient USA started taking PP shortly after my complaint.
> 
> As far as receiving funds, if it's a refund from a vendor, it appears as a credit/debit on my CC statement. Any money sent directly to me is held in my PP "account", with PP effectively acting as a bank for those funds. I can then spend those funds the same way people who have linked to a bank account can. I admit I am not comfortable leaving funds with PP, so I usually find a way to use the money before too much time passes.


Right, but all that only works for you as a consumer.

I'm running a business. I need PayPal as an option for customers. If someone pays using PayPal, it doesn't matter if their account is connected to their bank, or they're just using PP to process their credit card, I still need a way to receive the funds from PayPal. They're not going to pay my credit card bill for me. They want to send the money to MY bank account.

Hence, I had to verify my banking info, as a PayPal merchant, whereas you didn't need to verify your bank info, as a PayPal customer.


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> Right, but all that only works for you as a consumer.
> 
> I'm running a business. I need PayPal as an option for customers. If someone pays using PayPal, it doesn't matter if their account is connected to their bank, or they're just using PP to process their credit card, I still need a way to receive the funds from PayPal. They're not going to pay my credit card bill for me. They want to send the money to MY bank account.
> 
> Hence, I had to verify my banking info, as a PayPal merchant, whereas you didn't need to verify your bank info, as a PayPal customer.


I 100% agree with everything you're saying about needing to provide banking information as a business owner. However, I was speaking to your surprise that buyers (unlike businesses) using PP don't have to have their banking information verified, possibly because the buyer wasn't U.S. based. I was merely pointing out that it's possible (and why) to have a U.S. based PP account without being linked to a bank account....

Does that affect how you do business from here on in? I don't know, but now you are aware that it's not just buyers from outside the U.S. that can have a PP account set up like the one in Mexico City.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> I 100% agree with everything you're saying about needing to provide banking information as a business owner. However, I was speaking to your surprise that buyers (unlike businesses) using PP don't have to have their banking information verified, possibly because the buyer wasn't U.S. based. I was merely pointing out that it's possible (and why) to have a U.S. based PP account without being linked to a bank account....
> 
> Does that affect how you do business from here on in? I don't know, but now you are aware that it's not just buyers from outside the U.S. that can have a PP account set up like the one in Mexico City.


Luckily, over 90% of my sales are through my retailers, so it's not like I've got a thousand orders to check every year. That's another hidden benefit to working with retailers - they assume the risk of this type of fraud, so I don't have to worry about it nearly as often.

My website does a decent job spotting the potential frauds and flagging them for review. There are some orders the site does NOT flag, but will still pop up on my radar, for further scrutiny. For certain, I'll have to start taking a closer look at the PayPal info when one of those orders pops up.

I'm not saying I now regret NOT shipping that third order, after talking to PayPal again today, and suddenly finding I may get to keep all the money from the first two orders after all. But it did occur to me that in this new scenario, I'd be another $750 richer right now had I shipped that last order, assuming I do get to keep the money from the first two, and the third would have gone the same way.

It seems to me that simply checking that PP info for every order, including those in the US, isn't going to accomplish anything, if I find that a lot of folks do as you've been doing - using PP without connecting your bank account. I mean - 8 years, not one fraud involving PayPal until 3 weeks ago. What am I going to do, NOT ship any of those orders, which otherwise look entirely legitimate? What am I going to do for ex-US customers, many of whom can't get through checkout withOUT PayPal?

So, I think I'll just keep doing what I've been doing. Even if my website hadn't flagged the orders as suspicious, as soon as I saw the delivery address was in Mexico, I was suspicious, as I am whenever we get any order from some part of the world from where we rarely see any business. When those occasions come up, I'll do what I've done in the past - remain skeptical, put them under more scrutiny, err on the side of caution, etc, but I suppose it won't hurt to also add looking at the PayPal info, to see if the customer's account has been verified.

It raises an interesting moral question - suppose I prevail with these two open cases, get to keep the money, and thus assume I likely would have gotten to keep the money on the third. Suppose I keep getting orders from Mexico City or other criminal outposts, all paid with PayPal, and all orders are supposedly eligible for seller protection. What do I do? Do I ship those orders, knowing, or at least suspecting they're fraudulent?

I'm sure a lot of business owners would be tempted to ship those orders, knowing PayPal or someone else will be left holding the check. I'm not going to lie, I could use another $750 right now. And I'm not sure how much I care if those two watches I shipped end up being sold in some Mexico City flea market for pennies on the dollar.

But what about if they get listed on eBay, at stupid-low prices?

When we had a huge theft of inventory from our warehouse, a lot of those watches got sold (and *cheap*!) on eBay and elsewhere. It galled me to see it happening, unable to do anything about it, but I'm not sure how much of that feeling was, "they're destroying the market's perception of my brand's resale value," as opposed to "they stole my inventory! That's MINE!"

Whichever was my bigger gripe at the time, my business survived, as did I, obviously. Yeah, someone scored a new $500 Orthos for $125, but we still sold out of the ones that weren't stolen.

I already know my answer to that moral dilemma. I shipped the first two, based on the advice I got from PayPal, but also partly because I didn't have a good reason NOT to ship. I didn't want to act on my suspicions, for reasons which are just barely defensible enough to avoid someone accusing me of being racist.

But when that third order came through, it became obvious what was happening, which drove me to call PayPal again, practically begging them to give me a reason not to ship.

I've got a reason now - shipping destination is sketchy at best, PayPal info not verified, boom - you're outta here, Manuel. Hit the bricks. Hasta la vista, baby. Don't go away mad, just go away.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Looking good Billy Ray!
> 
> Feeling good, Winthorp!
> 
> ...


One of my all time favorite movie quotes! Nicely played Mr. Vail! 
Also, I'm sorry to hear about the PP headache! I hope it gets sorted out, you're a stand up guy, and don't deserve that crap!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I didn't want to act on my suspicions, for reasons which are just barely defensible enough to avoid someone accusing me of being racist.


Before anyone asks, or goes off on a charged rant about current politics...

All I'm saying here is, put yourself in my position. Imagine having to email a customer, to tell them you're canceling their order, and needing to provide some reason why.

"You're in Mexico. Your name is Gonzales. You're poor. The place is full of criminals. Go away."

I don't care how you phrase it, that's what people are going to take away from it. And the fact is, we have had legitimate sales from Mexico, and many other similar places, from where we see more attempts at fraud.

The one time in 10 someone ISN'T trying to commit fraud, imagine the $hlt-storm that would create. Imagine reading that WUS thread title: "Docvail is a racist. He wouldn't ship to me because I'm brown."

Yes, that would be an amazingly awesome thread in many ways ("You're crazy. I'm black, and Doc's shipped to me, he even told me I could date his sister..."), but it would also be one more thing the haters dredge up and spew out every chance they get, just like that whole "Docvail is secretly in business with Ginault" thing, which I still see people posting.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Goddam this is one crazy thread, innit?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> One of my all time favorite movie quotes! Nicely played Mr. Vail!
> Also, I'm sorry to hear about the PP headache! I hope it gets sorted out, you're a stand up guy, and don't deserve that crap!





PowerChucker said:


> ..., you're a stand up guy, ....


Whoa, whoa there....let's not get out of hand here. Mr. Vail is more a "Come here and sit on Uncle Chris' lap so I can sniff your hair" -type of guy.

LOL no I am kidding. Sucks man for the PP stuff. They are a bear to work with when you finally get a person on the phone that is.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Goddam this is one crazy thread, innit?


Its for sure my favorite thread on the entire site!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> Whoa, whoa there....let's not get out of hand here. Mr. Vail is more a "Come here and sit on Uncle Chris' lap so I can sniff your hair" -type of guy.
> 
> LOL no I am kidding. Sucks man for the PP stuff. They are a bear to work with when you finally get a person on the phone that is.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Hahaha, but we dont sniff hair here in Delco. we just have poor attitudes a lot of the time,  and we like our Pizza and Cheesesteaks for breakfast.


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

For the record, I purchased all 5 of my NTH watches using PP, (2 Subs, 2 2K1's and a Devilray) so no need to flag my account....


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Metallman said:


> For the record, I purchased all 5 of my NTH watches using PP, (2 Subs, 2 2K1's and a Devilray) so no need to flag my account....


Doc mightn't, however the wife might have other ideas

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> So...after whinging about PayPal and frauds, I got frustrated enough to call PayPal, in order to get my gripe "on the record", so to speak.
> 
> Turns out, we may have some good news here.
> 
> ...


They're ruling in your favor because the scammers hit other businesses in the same timeframe and paypal's system recognized the pattern. Had you not called, you may (or may not) have gotten notified weeks from now that you got the money back. PayPal really doesn't screw sellers as often as people say, but you HAVE to stay engaged with them. They seem to go on the assumption that if you're not fighting you're guilty.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> They're ruling in your favor because the scammers hit other businesses in the same timeframe and paypal's system recognized the pattern. Had you not called, you may (or may not) have gotten notified weeks from now that you got the money back. PayPal really doesn't screw sellers as often as people say, but you HAVE to stay engaged with them. They seem to go on the assumption that if you're not fighting you're guilty.


Interesting take on it. I'm inclined to agree, vis-a-vis how they treat sellers.

The truth is I haven't needed to talk to PayPal under circumstances like the recent ones very often. In the last 8 years, I can only remember 2 disputes.

One was completely unnecessary - someone filed a dispute the moment we received a return, rather than waiting for us to process a refund. We just issued the refund, and the dispute was thus resolved.

The other one was simply ridiculous - someone filed a dispute rather than use thread locker on his bracelet screws, claiming the product was defective. A very brief call with PayPal settled that one in our favor, thankfully.

On that latter one, I recall the PP rep I spoke to noting that in all the time we'd been a PayPal seller, we effectively had zero disputes. I gathered that factored into her decision to dismiss the pending dispute without looking into it further.

I admit, my feelings about PP are mixed. When we first launched Lew & Huey, they put a hold on about $25k of funds we'd collected from pre-orders from the Riccardo, money we needed to pay for production.

It took about 7 months (well past the point they said they'd release funds) and increasingly aggressive communications to get the funds released (my last message threatened to involve my congressional reps and the press). It was their actions which forced me to turn to Kickstarter to bridge the financing gap, not just for the Riccardo, but also for our next two models.

That said, and aside from that early experience, they've been mostly great. They've waived all hold times on payments I receive, so I can withdraw them immediately. They have expedited US-based phone support for merchants like me. The people I've spoken to have all been native English speakers. They've all been professional, patient, apparently competent, etc, up until the fellow I spoke to recently, who failed to advise me about the un-verified accounts of the peeps in Mexico.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




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## heyitsthatguy (Sep 18, 2015)

Thanks for the tips and moral support, fellas. This fitted strap is pretty rad.

Finally got the strap mounted tonight. It wasn't bad aside from me apparently hulk-smashing a spring bar's shoulders down into the tube. With a fresh 1.5mm bar it was back in business pretty quickly.

Figured I'd add one more tip to the mix: If I can't quite get a spring bar seated on one side, with drilled lugs I poke the pin end of the spring bar tool through the lug hole. Sometimes pushing and releasing the spring will get the spring bar end to engage and snap in. If things aren't aligned well enough to do that, seeing the tool poking through at least gives a reference of where to direct the spring bar.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

heyitsthatguy said:


>


It looks like that black strap and Nacken were made for each other... Looks great!


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Just wondering, is this the most gorgeous NTH watch of all? (Pic is stolen) I mean, damn!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Going old school today with my first purchase from Docvail Industries. This is my gorgeous Lew & Huey Orthos. The blue sunburst dial with the orange bezel just work so well together, and the case sits soo well on my wrist.



















It is a shame that Chris cannot do this combination with the NTH's, but I am still happy I have this one. It has been consistently one of my most worn watches since I bought it 7 years ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Guess the model...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Guess the model...
> View attachment 15937986


Don't jack with us Skipper!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Guess the model...
> View attachment 15937986


A320 or A330.....

Oh, you mean the watch. Skipjack!


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> A320 or A330.....
> 
> Oh, you mean the watch. Skipjack!


Yes, no, yes.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised that most know what it is. I had never seen one before it popped up on recon recently.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Yes, no, yes.
> 
> Guess I shouldn't be surprised that most know what it is. I had never seen one before it popped up on recon recently.


That lume makes it a great choice for those early-birds and red-eyes...


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Anyone have a DevilRay and 6.5" wrist? Will the DR on the bracelet be OK on my 6.5 (flat) wrist?

The info in blog reviews is inconsistent. One otherwise positive review states: 
"The proportions of this NTH and the way it sits on wrist, in my opinion, makes it just a little bit too large for my 6¾″ wrist. The lug to lug distance is relatively small, but it's the way the bracelet end links have been designed makes the watch wear much larger than the dimensions would initially suggest. A female end link giving better articulation would've been a better choice. In saying that though, if you have a wrist size of 7″ and above, you won't have any issues with wearability."

Random Bob has no critique of wearability (I think he said the case shape made it wear smaller) but also noted if you measure from the end of each male end link to the other it is 52mm not the 46mm.Lug to Lug.

Contrariwise, others state: "the NTH DevilRay falls in the medium to large size arena at a claimed case diameter of 43mm. While I measure it at 45mm, it definitely wears smaller than its measurements would imply with its tonneau or cushion style case, similar to the Seiko Turtle and Doxa Sub. I measure the lug-to-lug distance at 46mm, dead on with the claimed measurement from NTH Watches, making this a very comfortable watch for most wrist sizes down to 6.5 inches."

And: "The DevilRay is an excellent example of how clever sculpting can change the way a watch will look on your wrist. Doubtless, a 43mm case has a big footprint, but the DevilRay's short lug-to-lug length, curved surfaces, and modestly sized face create a lean, tailored look that in no way lacks presence. It neatly fits my 6.5″ wrist."

And: "Despite the dimension of a 43mm case with a 46mm lug-to-lug distance and a 14mm height, the NTH DevilRay has great wrist presence and comfortable wearability on my 6.5″ wrist. It just felt right and that is coming from someone who is starting to wear smaller watches"

I love the watch and aiming to pick it up in the next release, but wanted to see if this crowd has more data points.

Finally, I am assuming that even if the DR on the bracelet might be pushing my wrist size envelope, it would wear smaller on the curved-end Viton rubber straps that NTH is offering (due to no protruding end links). Is this a valid assumption?

Sorry about this WOT (but see cool stolen photo I posted yesterday).

What say you?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Ike2 said:


> Anyone have a DevilRay and 6.5" wrist? Will the DR on the bracelet be OK on my 6.5 (flat) wrist?
> 
> The info in blog reviews is inconsistent. One otherwise positive review states:
> "The proportions of this NTH and the way it sits on wrist, in my opinion, makes it just a little bit too large for my 6¾″ wrist. The lug to lug distance is relatively small, but it's the way the bracelet end links have been designed makes the watch wear much larger than the dimensions would initially suggest. A female end link giving better articulation would've been a better choice. In saying that though, if you have a wrist size of 7″ and above, you won't have any issues with wearability."
> ...


I never wore my Devilray on the bracelet, always on NATOs. I had no issues with the size on my flat 6.5 inch wrist, although the watch does have presence on the wrist.

Yes, it has a 43 mm width, but the lug-to-lug length is short, and the dial is not too big either. I cannot remember the exact measurement now, but I think the watch is around 40 mm at the bezel as well.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Ike2 said:


> Anyone have a DevilRay and 6.5" wrist? Will the DR on the bracelet be OK on my 6.5 (flat) wrist?
> 
> The info in blog reviews is inconsistent. One otherwise positive review states:
> "The proportions of this NTH and the way it sits on wrist, in my opinion, makes it just a little bit too large for my 6¾″ wrist. The lug to lug distance is relatively small, but it's the way the bracelet end links have been designed makes the watch wear much larger than the dimensions would initially suggest. A female end link giving better articulation would've been a better choice. In saying that though, if you have a wrist size of 7″ and above, you won't have any issues with wearability."
> ...


Some old photos:



















NTH Sub for comparison:


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

gokce said:


> Some old photos:
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DevilRay's bezel is 40mm. Dial / crystal opening is actually smaller than the Subs'.

The whole "male end links make the watch wear bigger thing" is over-played, IMO. The end-links angle downward.

I agree it wears lighter on a strap than on the bracelet. I haven't worn the v.2 bracelet yet, so I can't say if it feels any lighter than the v.1.

I definitely don't think it wears like a typical 43mm wide / 14mm thick watch. It feels smaller than that to em.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> DevilRay's bezel is 40mm. Dial / crystal opening is actually smaller than the Subs'.
> 
> The whole "male end links make the watch wear bigger thing" is over-played, IMO. The end-links angle downward.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I like the look of the v2 bracelet so I hope it works for me. I plan to get the rubber band too so I can switch up at some point, although it sounds like installing it is a PITA and I'm not the most patient or skillful with such things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Thanks. I like the look of the v2 bracelet so I hope it works for me. I plan to get the rubber band too so I can switch up at some point, although it sounds like installing it is a PITA and I'm not the most patient or skillful with such things.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Meh. It's not the hardest strap to mount.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Just because&#8230;


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ike2 said:


> Anyone have a DevilRay and 6.5" wrist? Will the DR on the bracelet be OK on my 6.5 (flat) wrist?
> 
> The info in blog reviews is inconsistent. One otherwise positive review states:
> "The proportions of this NTH and the way it sits on wrist, in my opinion, makes it just a little bit too large for my 6¾″ wrist. The lug to lug distance is relatively small, but it's the way the bracelet end links have been designed makes the watch wear much larger than the dimensions would initially suggest. A female end link giving better articulation would've been a better choice. In saying that though, if you have a wrist size of 7″ and above, you won't have any issues with wearability."
> ...


6.25 ish here.









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

kpjimmy said:


> 6.25 ish here.
> View attachment 15939548
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Thanks! Looks good. Very helpful.

Except I want the blue fume and now you are making me lust after the black&#8230;.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ike2 said:


> Thanks! Looks good. Very helpful.
> 
> Except I want the blue fume and now you are making me lust after the black&#8230;.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whichever you get you'll be more than satisfied!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Monday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

An old favorite today. The Näcken Modern Blue.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 15940607
> 
> 
> View attachment 15940608
> ...


That looks Amazing!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

My favorite lume


----------



## shrewboy (Feb 24, 2015)

I know that this is officially the NTH thread, but it also seems like a good place to bounce ideas off of Chris, so going to give this one a shot.

NTH has some great designs going for dive watches. Love mine! But any thought to dusting off the Lew and Huey brand at some point and testing the waters with other styles of watches? And I mention Lew and Huey since something too far afield wouldn’t be in line with the NTH brand.

Not pushing, just curious!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

shrewboy said:


> I know that this is officially the NTH thread, but it also seems like a good place to bounce ideas off of Chris, so going to give this one a shot.
> 
> NTH has some great designs going for dive watches. Love mine! But any thought to dusting off the Lew and Huey brand at some point and testing the waters with other styles of watches? And I mention Lew and Huey since something too far afield wouldn't be in line with the NTH brand.
> 
> ...


Not really. I stopped pursuing new models with Lew & Huey when I realized I was crap at running more than one brand at a time.


----------



## bes-b2 (Jan 16, 2009)

kpjimmy said:


> Monday
> View attachment 15940207
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


This thing is...amazing. This comes with a stainless bezel from factory, no?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bes-b2 said:


> This thing is...amazing. This comes with a stainless bezel from factory, no?


Yes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here an expert in building searchable online databases, with added functionality, such as auto-generated alerts for registered users, user-defined search result formatting, and limited user messaging?

I have an idea I want to explore, but don't want to post it for public discussion. I just want to get a sense for the potential development and maintenance costs.

If you're in that line of work, or have some particular subject matter expertise, please hit me with an email to customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com.


----------



## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> Anyone have a DevilRay and 6.5" wrist? Will the DR on the bracelet be OK on my 6.5 (flat) wrist?
> 
> The info in blog reviews is inconsistent. One otherwise positive review states:
> "The proportions of this NTH and the way it sits on wrist, in my opinion, makes it just a little bit too large for my 6¾″ wrist. The lug to lug distance is relatively small, but it's the way the bracelet end links have been designed makes the watch wear much larger than the dimensions would initially suggest. A female end link giving better articulation would've been a better choice. In saying that though, if you have a wrist size of 7″ and above, you won't have any issues with wearability."
> ...


Here you go a fellow 6.5 incher with the right colour devilray-









I prefer to wear my watches loose and on a bracelet, and having skinny wrists I know the what a challenge it is to find a watch that is comfortable and looks great, but in all honesty the case shape is fantastic the bracelet is proper quality and if you like to swap out straps and watch bands the spring bar position is spot on the watch looks great on nato, marine national elastic, even shark mesh.

I could waffle on more but bottom line is, it is a boss watch, it is one purchase you won't regret.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Here's another just because&#8230;


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Fitted strap arrived today. Had no issues installing. I really like the look compared to the bracelet. Unfortunately due to my own exuberance I bought via Apple Pay which bypasses the shipping section. Shipping fees were almost as much as the strap and no doubt FedEx will coming for customs and import fees. 20/20 hindsight...Doc any chance of offering mail offerings for International customers?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MuckyMark said:


> Fitted strap arrived today. Had no issues installing. I really like the look compared to the bracelet. Unfortunately due to my own exuberance I bought via Apple Pay which bypasses the shipping section. Shipping fees were almost as much as the strap and no doubt FedEx will coming for customs and import fees. 20/20 hindsight...Doc any chance of offering mail offerings for International customers?
> View attachment 15943238
> 
> View attachment 15943239


It looks like you were over-charged on the shipping. I just refunded you USD $10.

Our FedEx international priority rates are actually cheaper than the US mail's international priority mail. As a bonus, shipments are delivered in less time, and are less likely to be lost.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Was someone here recently asking about a Santa Fe? One just hit the sales forum.









For sale: NTH SANTAFE - Fullbox


Hi Sir For sale is my NTH SantaFe - Fullbox. Condition is pre-owned but very good. I am asking 525$ for this piece. Contact me through whatsapp +84912303611




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

docvail said:


> It looks like you were over-charged on the shipping. I just refunded you USD $10.
> 
> Our FedEx international priority rates are actually cheaper than the US mail's international priority mail. As a bonus, shipments are delivered in less time, and are less likely to be lost.


Just got the email notification. Thanks&#8230;


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Anyone here an expert in building searchable online databases, with added functionality, such as auto-generated alerts for registered users, user-defined search result formatting, and limited user messaging?
> 
> I have an idea I want to explore, but don't want to post it for public discussion. I just want to get a sense for the potential development and maintenance costs.
> 
> If you're in that line of work, or have some particular subject matter expertise, please hit me with an email to customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com.


Im in IT, this isnt my specialty, but ill ask a few friends that are also in IT to see what they say.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Im in IT, this isnt my specialty, but ill ask a few friends that are also in IT to see what they say.


Much obliged.

I have a feeling what I'm envisioning is going to be a big, expensive development project, and I won't want to pursue it. But I'd at least like to talk to someone with some subject matter expertise, just to confirm it, before I abandon the idea.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> *For the first release in June / July, we'll be making the Barracuda Vintage Black, Näcken Modern Black, and Näcken Modern Blue. Just those three models. *


hi Doc, sorry if I missed it, but are these 40mm 2k1s still on track-ish? Will the models be available with & without date?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> hi Doc, sorry if I missed it, but are these 40mm 2k1s still on track-ish? Will the models be available with & without date?


Still on track(ish) as of my last update from my vendor. Still expected in early July-ish.

All will be available with or without a date.

Expect to start seeing 3D images / video of them soon, courtesy of Rusty "my beard could beat you down" Mahony.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

What a day today. So rare to get a sunny breezy one that isn't blazing hot in Pittsburgh.
I suspect this will be glowing fiercely when I go back inside:







Front yard pear crop looking decent this year:


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> courtesy of Rusty "my beard could beat you down" Mahony.


I'll take that fight.

On a side note... I noticed that the Atticus thread was locked. What gives? I wasn't planning on purchasing one, but I was enjoying following the journey.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'll take that fight.
> 
> On a side note... I noticed that the Atticus thread was locked. What gives? I wasn't planning on purchasing one, but I was enjoying following the journey.


Ask a mod. Not sure what rule was broken.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Ask a mod. Not sure what rule was broken.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Yeah nah.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Much obliged.
> 
> I have a feeling what I'm envisioning is going to be a big, expensive development project, and I won't want to pursue it. But I'd at least like to talk to someone with some subject matter expertise, just to confirm it, before I abandon the idea.


One of my good friends said he could talk to you. I'll email you over his info.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Jzeynn (Dec 23, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> On a side note... I noticed that the Atticus thread was locked. What gives? I wasn't planning on purchasing one, but I was enjoying following the journey.


I was wondering that myself. I don't see anything in it that is against the rules. It's great for updates because I did order a couple. And it has been quite a journey that lived out in that thread! I hope the lock was an accident.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I'll take that fight.
> 
> On a side note... I noticed that the Atticus thread was locked. What gives? I wasn't planning on purchasing one, but I was enjoying following the journey.


Probably looking for vendor/sponsor $$$$ to unlock

Disclaimer: This is the type of pure speculation that breaks things on the internet


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Today, I mostly be wearing................










Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> On a side note... I noticed that the Atticus thread was locked. What gives? I wasn't planning on purchasing one, but I was enjoying following the journey.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Probably looking for vendor/sponsor $$$$ to unlock
> 
> Disclaimer: This is the type of pure speculation that breaks things on the internet


My thoughts exactly. WUS want to change the relationship. $$ will be involved somewhere.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ragl said:


> Today, I mostly be wearing................
> 
> View attachment 15945911
> 
> ...


Great color combo!!



rpm1974 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This gave me a good, literal, laugh out loud


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So what about this beard beatdown? When are we doing this thing?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> So what about this beard beatdown? When are we doing this thing?


Actually, it's been a while since Chris has seen me. I've taken it down to a goatee for the summer.










It gets hot down here in the Deep South!

-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Actually, it's been a while since Chris has seen me. I've taken it down to a goatee for the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It gets hot down here in Texas, too. 
Quitter.










Jordan fades back!


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> It gets hot down here in Texas, too.
> Quitter.
> 
> View attachment 15946731
> ...












You kids and yer unfrosted tips&#8230;

Sadly, I'm stationed on a sour facility and am babyfaced&#8230;

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sa-sa-sa-salt 'n' pepa's here...

It gets itchy on muh face. The heat ain't helpin' nuthin'...









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

After letting two of these go, I luckily snagged the last new Holland on the planet.










Big thanks to Serious who cracked open their safe to let this guy go. Insert swap on deck&#8230;


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## Jzeynn (Dec 23, 2013)

So I don't mean to hijack this thread, but where can we get our Atticus updates now? Has someone asked the mods what happened to our thread, or do they not like to be questioned about that lol

Rusty, do you post on another forum where I can follow for updates?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I started a new, unofficial, Atticus thread:









Atticus: which one are you getting?







www.watchuseek.com





I will post updates there as I, a customer, receive them.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

I've frequented this forum for a while, but I've mostly slept on this brand. The style and the pricing just didn't appeal to me. As time has passed, though, my tastes and the things I see value in have changed... and well... I'm thinking about getting an Nth sub.

I think I prefer the V1 case to the "coming soon" V2 design with crown guards. So I guess that limits me to buying one of the more quirky styles that still has available stock... or going pre-owned.

One thing I like about what I've seen so far is how despite such a variety of styles, there's a commonality in things like the case design and typeface on the dial that ties them all together where you just know an Nth watch when you see it.

I've seen some YouTube videos featuring the Nacken. Is that the most popular style? I get the impression there are a few styles that were popular and produced in higher quantities and the rest were more like one off runs for those who prefer something more unique? Which were the more popular ones or in production the longest?

I typically try to avoid stuff that tries too hard to homage something luxury or famous. Mercedes hands are a big turn off for me now. However, the Nacken seems just different enough from a Black Bay or Pelagos that the snowflake dial and hands don't bother me as much as I'd expect. My design aesthetic is classic, clean, modern, geometric, symmetrical... some might say boring lol

Also been looking at the Odin. Again, a bit of a nod to the Seamaster, but different enough to make it interesting, especially that two tone lume.

I'm guessing all of these subs (not the newer tropics or 2K1 series) are just variations of bezel/dial/hands tacked onto the same "bones" of case and bracelet. How long has that case been around? I like its classic size and what I've seen of the finishing. With the new "V2" case design it sounds like this one is retiring? What about it made it seem like it needed an update?

Sorry I know there's a lot of questions in there. Just thinking out loud, really. I'll post again if I actually get one.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Salt n peppa is for kids. You gotta rock the Santa!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

MrDisco99 said:


> I've seen some YouTube videos featuring the Nacken. Is that the most popular style? I get the impression there are a few styles that were popular and produced in higher quantities and the rest were more like one off runs for those who prefer something more unique? Which were the more popular ones or in production longest?
> 
> I'm guessing all of these subs (not the newer tropics or 2K1 series) are just variations of bezel/dial/hands tacked onto the same "bones" of case and bracelet. How long has that case been around?
> 
> ...


Okay, I will try to answer some of these, but I am sure Chris can chime in with more details as required.

The original NTH Subs came out in 2016 I believe. Since then there have been a variety of minor tweaks to the case, bezel, bracelet and clasp, things like a more articulated bracelet, better defined end links, solid clasp with more micro-adjustments, cleaner champhered edges on the case, smoother transition between bezel and crystal. These are shared across all models with the dial, hands and bezel inserts changing for each model.

The Nacken has been the best selling by far, followed by the Barracuda. Most of the other designs have 100 or less per iteration, with some as few as 10 being made.

I actually have four different versions (Amphion blue, Barracuda blue, Odin blue and Santa Fe), but I have also had a few others in hand (Scorpene, Oberon, Tikuna). Although the "bones" are the same, each design has it's own character and they do feel like different watches. They are well built and super comfortable to wear. I have 8' wrists and I find these to wear so well that I am now moving away from larger watches.

These watches are very versatile and I am sure one of the designs will appeal to you. They are worth buying new if you can find the one you like, but they are also a great deal second hand. I bought two of mine new and two used, and I am looking for another right now.

As for the v2 case, I am not sure of the reason. I personally like the v1 case and would be fine with it remaining, but I will be interested to see how the v2 case compares in person. It is basically a reduced size 2K1 case and I did have a Thresher for a while. I personally found the 2K1 case to be too big and it did not sit as well as some other 43/44mm watches I own, but with it reduced to 40mm this may work much better on my wrist.

Whatever you decide to go with I believe you will enjoy these great little divers.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Rhorya said:


> Salt n peppa is for kids. You gotta rock the Santa!


----------



## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

rpm1974 said:


> Actually, it's been a while since Chris has seen me. I've taken it down to a goatee for the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, that's my watch you're wearing!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Scbr24 (Oct 21, 2017)

docvail said:


> We also sent out 10 Odin Blue to Watch Gauge and Serious
> 
> 
> 
> ...


10 in total or 10 for each store?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

catsteeth said:


> Wow. That sucks. Massively
> 
> Is everyone outside of the US unverified? Can you still be verified outside the US if you have a bank account?


Err, fwiw, paypal required me to become fully "verified" some 5 years ago or so, in part due to all the watch buying and selling (partly here, partly on ebay), to the point where they wanted proof not only of a connected bank account (easy enough) but also for actual national ID.

I'm honestly not even sure how one would manage to keep an _active_ paypal account for any length of time _without_ being verified.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> I've seen some YouTube videos featuring the Nacken. Is that the most popular style? I get the impression there are a few styles that were popular and produced in higher quantities and the rest were more like one off runs for those who prefer something more unique? Which were the more popular ones or in production the longest?


Depends on which version you mean, and what data you look at. There have been 6 versions of the Nacken.

The Nacken Modern Black was the most popular among the 8 original Subs designs from 2016, and has remained popular.

The Nacken Modern Blue was introduced in 2017. By 2018, it was the version most in demand.

The Barracuda Vintage Black was introduced in 2019. Based on recent figures, I'd say it's the most popular model.



MrDisco99 said:


> Also been looking at the Odin. Again, a bit of a nod to the Seamaster, but different enough to make it interesting, especially that two tone lume.


There are a handful of Odin Blue available from Watch Gauge in the US, or Serious Watches in the EU. If you want the black version, you'll have to find one on the used market.



MrDisco99 said:


> I'm guessing all of these subs (not the newer tropics or 2K1 series) are just variations of bezel/dial/hands tacked onto the same "bones" of case and bracelet.


More or less.



MrDisco99 said:


> How long has that case been around?


Since 2016.



MrDisco99 said:


> I like its classic size and what I've seen of the finishing. With the new "V2" case design it sounds like this one is retiring?


At least for now. We'll see what the future holds, I s'pose, regarding whether or not we'll make the v.1 again.



MrDisco99 said:


> What about it made it seem like it needed an update?


The fact we've been making it for 5 years. Felt like it was time for a change, to mix things up a bit.



MrDisco99 said:


> Sorry I know there's a lot of questions in there. Just thinking out loud, really. I'll post again if I actually get one.


No worries. Welcome to the thread.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Salt n peppa is for kids. You gotta rock the Santa!


Uncle Jesse?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scbr24 said:


> 10 in total or 10 for each store?


10 total - five with date, five no-date.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MrDisco99 said:


> I've frequented this forum for a while, but I've mostly slept on this brand. The style and the pricing just didn't appeal to me. As time has passed, though, my tastes and the things I see value in have changed... and well... I'm thinking about getting an Nth sub.
> 
> I think I prefer the V1 case to the "coming soon" V2 design with crown guards. So I guess that limits me to buying one of the more quirky styles that still has available stock... or going pre-owned.
> 
> ...


My two cents. The case is what makes them great, and they all have the same case. They are more comfortable than most other brands due to the size and shape, particularly the thinness. I'd get the one that calls to you. I've lost count, but I think there are more than 40 subtle (and not so subtle) variations. They are well made and tough, so I wouldn't fear pre-owned. And the Miyota is pretty bullet proof. I've modded one, and regulated another, just to get it down to +1 sec/day. Took me about 5 minutes....

As to version 2, my recollection: Doc made a larger sub with some minor differences, but the design is distinct from other subs. Version one shares a shape with almost every other sub, but version two is all Doc.


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

I'm not normally into mods, but that one is fantastic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Err, fwiw, paypal required me to become fully "verified" some 5 years ago or so, in part due to all the watch buying and selling (partly here, partly on ebay), to the point where they wanted proof not only of a connected bank account (easy enough) but also for actual national ID.
> 
> I'm honestly not even sure how one would manage to keep an _active_ paypal account for any length of time _without_ being verified.


Well, here's an update on this ongoing drama, regarding the fraudulent orders placed on my site, using Paypal.

The first dispute was "resolved", if we want to call it that, yesterday or the day before. They pulled the money from my account.

Outraged as expected, I looked at the explanation. It said something about the PP rep who reviewed the case not being able to verify the tracking info.

Which, of course, is BS. I provided a tracking link as part of my original response.

Checking the tracking link, I saw that delivery was refused by someone at the address we shipped to. So it was re-routed to a local FedEx hub, where someone retrieved it.

Logically, I assumed that the package NOT being delivered to the PayPal "confirmed address" was the root of the rep's decision.

Checking the link on the other case, which is still open, I see that the package couldn't be delivered, because the address was "incorrect". And again, the package was re-routed to the local hub, where someone retrieved it.

Here's where it gets interesting - when I called PP, I pointed out, as calmly as I could, considering how livid I was, that once we ship a package, we have no control over what happens from there. Our responsibility would seem to end when we ship to the Paypal confirmed delivery address, no?

Delivery drivers can't always reach the intended recipient to get a signature, or access the delivery point, and the package will be re-routed back to the local hub for pick-up. Sometimes recipients will arrange to have FedEx or UPS deliver to an alternate address. We can't stop either from happening.

The rep I spoke to completely agreed. In fact, she pointed out that in order to retrieve a package from a FedEx hub, someone would need to show ID, proving they were the intended recipient, which would put the lie to the claim by the account holder, that the order was fraudulent.

She told me she'd arrange to have the resolution reversed, and the funds returned to me. She said it might take a few days, before we were disconnected. I'm still waiting to see it, assuming I will.

I called back later, spoke to a different rep, and requested that the details of the reversed case be added to the still-open case. The rep said he'd add the notes from one case to the other, but that wouldn't guarantee anything. So I may need to go through all of this rigmarole again.

Ah, the joys of running a small business...


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> Depends on which version you mean, and what data you look at. There have been 6 versions of the Nacken.
> 
> The Nacken Modern Black was the most popular among the 8 original Subs designs from 2016, and has remained popular.
> 
> ...


That's interesting... I didn't realize the Barracuda was that new. As many times as I'd seen it I thought it had been around longer.

I do like that one too, even if it is a bit "on the nose." The Nacken Modern Blue is the one I'm most interested in, but the Barracuda Vintage Black seems like it would be a nice complement to that.

You sparked my curiosity... what were the "8 original subs?"


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Err, fwiw, paypal required me to become fully "verified" some 5 years ago or so, in part due to all the watch buying and selling (partly here, partly on ebay), to the point where they wanted proof not only of a connected bank account (easy enough) but also for actual national ID.
> 
> I'm honestly not even sure how one would manage to keep an _active_ paypal account for any length of time _without_ being verified.


I'm just amazed that there's such a thing as an unverified account. I can see situations, like Doc has explained where it would happen. But like you say, it could only ever be short term.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Well, here's an update on this ongoing drama, regarding the fraudulent orders placed on my site, using Paypal.
> 
> The first dispute was "resolved", if we want to call it that, yesterday or the day before. They pulled the money from my account.
> 
> ...


Well that's.... finally .... a good ending. Let's hope they both go that way.

I'm always astonished at the lengths shysters will go to rip other people off. If they put all that effort they use to legitimately trying to make money, they'd probably be rich 🤷‍♂️


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

MrDisco99 said:


> I've frequented this forum for a while, but I've mostly slept on this brand. The style and the pricing just didn't appeal to me. As time has passed, though, my tastes and the things I see value in have changed... and well... I'm thinking about getting an Nth sub.
> 
> I think I prefer the V1 case to the "coming soon" V2 design with crown guards. So I guess that limits me to buying one of the more quirky styles that still has available stock... or going pre-owned.
> 
> ...





dmjonez said:


> My two cents. The case is what makes them great, and they all have the same case. They are more comfortable than most other brands due to the size and shape, particularly the thinness. I'd get the one that calls to you. I've lost count, but I think there are more than 40 subtle (and not so subtle) variations. They are well made and tough, so I wouldn't fear pre-owned. And the Miyota is pretty bullet proof. I've modded one, and regulated another, just to get it down to +1 sec/day. Took me about 5 minutes....
> 
> As to version 2, my recollection: Doc made a larger sub with some minor differences, but the design is distinct from other subs. Version one shares a shape with almost every other sub, but version two is all Doc.
> 
> View attachment 15947750


As Dmjonez says, the NTH cases really are something a bit special.
I'm just going to agree with what Dmjonez said here. I've said this about the case before. But give praise where it's due.

For two reasons.

The ergonomic design, they've just hit that comfort sweet spot. It works with whatever size wrist you have. The size, angle of lugs, crown placement and width, etc.
Combined with the updated bracelet. With the more rounded profile of the links, the bracelet just drapes across the wrist. In the same way as the famously comfortable speedmaster bracelet does, with its similarly small, rounded, highly articulated links.

Secondly the finish and QC.
Firstly the burnish that you get from the case brushing is really _very_ good. The care which has been taken with getting the grain coordinated across all the surfaces and bevels is similarly of high standard. Likewise the definition between all the facets and surfaces.
Then there's the machining and part fit of all the components. It's equally clear that time has been taken to get it right.
When the pictures of the NTH subs first started appearing on the forums. It was the case work that I was continuously impressed with. Add to that the great colours and dials it deserves its popularity.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re, the Subs' v.1 case vs. v.2 case...

The v.1's case design most closely resembles, or if you prefer, was most inspired by, the first Submariners, with reference numbers in the 6200's (6200, 6204, 6205), first produced in 1953, but with much smaller crowns.

The v.1 Subs case has the more pronounced chamfers of those first Submariners, but with the bigger crown of the "big crown" Submariners produced in the late '50's, most notably the "Bond Sub", reference 6538.

In addition to the more dramatic chamfers on the case sides, and the big crown, the v.1 Subs case shares the gear-tooth bezel of those early Subs from the '50's.

Obviously, we took some artistic license, by adding a variety of dials / handsets / bezels to that case, most of which bear no resemblance to anything Rolex produced between '53 and '59.

The v.2 Subs case is more or less a scaled-down version of the 2K1's.

The 2K1's case was inspired both by the original Sea-Dweller, and the COMEX 5514 Submariners (the first Submariners to feature HEV's), as the Sea-Dweller was essentially a COMEX Sub without COMEX being on the dial. 

The 2K1 case is wider and longer (yet thinner), and shares the 610m WR of the original Sea-Dweller, which, like the 5513's, was only 40mm wide.

The 5514's were really just 5513's made for COMEX. The 5513's first appeared in '62, and were the first Submariners to feature crown guards and the now-ubiquitous scalloped edge bezel. That case design remained more or less unchanged through the 5517, what we all know as "THE" MilSub - the one with sword hands, issued to military divers by the British MOD.

As Rolex was supplying the MOD and COMEX between the mid-50's and late 70's, Tudor was concurrently supplying the French Navy, the Marine Nationale. If you look at the case designs of what Tudor was sending to France, you'll see they appear to be more or less identical to whatever Rolex was making at that time.

Hence, the Tudor MN "Snowflake" Subs, stylistically an ancestor to the Pelagos, appear to share the 5513's / 5517's case being produced at the same time.

So, you can think of the v.1 Subs as being inspired by the very first (no-crown-guard) Submariners of the early-to-late 50's, and the v.2 Subs (and 2K1's) as being inspired by the next generation of Submariners, the ones with crown guards and scalloped bezels.

With both cases, we've tried to add our own design touches while remaining faithful to the spirit of the original. Aside from the improved specs and materials, and thinner cases, we've turned the lugs down a bit more, made the chamfers more pronounced / dramatic, and re-shaped various elements, such as the crown and crown guards.

For the first v.2 Subs release, we're making the Barracuda Vintage Black, Nacken Modern Black, and Nacken Modern Blue. I imagine future releases will see the return of other v.1 Subs versions, as well as some new versions not seen before.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Totally understand Mercs are divisive, but I love them. Incredibly legible. All day, baby, and twice on Friday.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> That's interesting... I didn't realize the Barracuda was that new. As many times as I'd seen it I thought it had been around longer.
> 
> I do like that one too, even if it is a bit "on the nose." The Nacken Modern Blue is the one I'm most interested in, but the Barracuda Vintage Black seems like it would be a nice complement to that.
> 
> You sparked my curiosity... what were the "8 original subs?"


Amphion Modern Black, Amphion Vintage Black, Nacken Modern Black, Nacken Vintage Black, Nacken Vintage Blue, Oberon (v.1), Santa Cruz, Scorpene.

Since then, we've produced more than 40 different Subs versions, including 6 Nackens, 6 Amphions, 5 Nazarios, 4 Barracudas, 4 Scorpenes, 2 Dolphins, 2 Odins, 2 Oberons, and 3 one-off special collaboration projects - the Kiger Red Ronin, the Carolina, and the Catalina, though I suppose we might also throw the Holland in there.

Production numbers for the 40 versions ranges from 20 pieces to over 650.

Of no real relevance, fun fact -

We ran a survey, before launching pre-orders, to determine which versions people were most interested in. Based on the results, the Scorpene should have been the best seller, by a country mile.

But in pre-orders, it wasn't. Not even close. It seems that it was many people's second-favorite. And although many people pre-ordered more than one Sub, most didn't, so it didn't sell nearly as well as we expected.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

MrDisco99 said:


> I've frequented this forum for a while, but I've mostly slept on this brand. The style and the pricing just didn't appeal to me. As time has passed, though, my tastes and the things I see value in have changed... and well... I'm thinking about getting an Nth sub.


You won't regret it. I've tried similar styles in other brands and Chinese homage makers, and for me, NTH hits all the right notes, better. And I'm not even that big a fan of the Rolex case style which influenced the v1 case.

FWIW, I'm interested in seeing how the v2 case works out, but not in any hurry to get one - super happy with fit and finish of the v1 case. Not that I don't like the looks of the v2 case, not that it won't be an improvement, just that the v1 works so well for me, why bother?

Of course, that's easy to say, since the new v2 is not out in the world yet. Ask me again when people have been shouting out its merits from the rooftops... I certainly don't hate the shape of the Big NTHs, and if it's a scaled down version, I'd be just as happy with it, I'm sure.

In any case, I don't think you'll go wrong buying an NTH - current stock, used v1, or waiting for v2.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> We ran a survey, before launching pre-orders, to determine which versions people seem most interested in. Based on the results, the Scorpene should have been the best seller, by a country mile.
> 
> But in pre-orders, it wasn't. Not even close. It seems that it was many people's second-favorite. And although many people pre-ordered more than one Sub, most didn't, so it didn't sell nearly as well as we expected.


Scorpene is my favorite, hands-down. Basically the style that tipped me into buying an NTH: 
Sinn - too expensive, and too large
Seiko Spork - collector pricing too expensive, and way too large
Seiko mod - as expensive, bigger, no support

NTH - right style, right size, decent price. Especially the Nomad version because I'm a nerd for 12hr bezel. And then, accessory bezels, so conversion to Commando bezel. Damn thing is tight, yo!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random updates on other stuff (replacement bezels and one-off assemblies)...

In addition to my vendor being slow to send us the parts we'd been waiting on, watchmaker Dan has been dealing with a herniated disc, and working longer hours at his day-job. It's limited the time he's been able to spend supporting NTH.

That said - *we have more replacement bezel inserts. *I *hope* to have them in our warehouse and *available for purchase by the end of next week*.

The inserts we got include three which haven't been available for a while - *the Oberon v.1, the Catalina, and the Nacken Vintage Black, v.1*.

We also have all the parts we need to assemble those 2 *Amphion Dark Gilts*. As soon as Dan is done getting all the parts we received shipped to our warehouse, I'll be back in touch with the guys on the waiting list, about the specific details of those assemblies.

I'm also planning to have Dan assemble 2 *DLC Scorpenes*, if anyone is interested. I'll likely just add them to the website when they're assembled, rather than start a wait list, which is more work than I need added to my plate. I think it'll be one black with-date and one black no-date. Both will have the original, 60-minute bezel.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> That said - *we have more replacement bezel inserts. *I *hope* to have them in our warehouse and *available for purchase by the end of next week*.


GTFO of my head...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Scorpene is my favorite, hands-down. Basically the style that tipped me into buying an NTH:
> Sinn - too expensive, and too large
> Seiko Spork - collector pricing too expensive, and way too large
> Seiko mod - as expensive, bigger, no support
> ...


I'll second that Scorpene Nomad with 12 hour dial 👍

Also the Spork. I love that watch. Both hands and indices are just spot on. 
But it's at least £500 when it comes up, which is just to rich for a used 4R Seiko. They're always in a seriously used condition too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> GTFO of my head...


I remembered that you were looking for one, I think the Catalina.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Amphion Modern Black, Amphion Vintage Black, Nacken Modern Black, Nacken Vintage Black, Nacken Vintage Blue, Oberon (v.1), Santa Cruz, Scorpene.
> 
> Since then, we've produced more than 40 different Subs versions, including 6 Nackens, 5 Amphions, 5 Nazarios, 4 Barracudas, 4 Scorpenes, 2 Odins, 2 Oberons, and 3 one-off special collaboration projects - the Kiger Red Ronin, the Carolina, and the Catalina, though I suppose we might also throw the Holland in there.
> 
> ...


Which one are the Dolphins. Also isn't the Tikuna a special.

Just checking up on you...?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I'll second that Scorpene Nomad with 12 hour dial 👍
> 
> Also the Spork. I love that watch. Both hands and indices are just spot on.
> But it's at least £500 when it comes up, which is just to rich for a used 4R Seiko. They're always in a seriously used condition too.


I love the Spork overall, but...not the lugs/end-links, or the date, or its size/case design. And indeed, used market prices have been bid up beyond all reason, IMO.

I feel much the same about the Sinn 857. It's too big, and over two grand. No thanks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Which one are the Dolphins. Also isn't the Tikuna a special.
> 
> Just checking up on you...😏


I'd forgotten the 2 Dolphins. I just edited my post to add them.

The Tikuna wasn't a "special" in any way. It wasn't co-designed by anyone outside NTH's design team, it wasn't made for exclusive sale to or by anyone, and wasn't produced in numbers any more limited than typical for the various Subs versions, at 100 pieces, which is about average, I think.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'd forgotten the 2 Dolphins. I just edited my post to add them.
> 
> The Tikuna wasn't a "special" in any way. It wasn't co-designed by anyone outside NTH's design team, it wasn't made for exclusive sale to or by anyone, and wasn't produced in numbers any more limited than typical for the various Subs versions, at 100 pieces, which is about average, I think.


I misunderstood in that case. Perhaps I was more thinking in terms of one-off. As in not one of a series or family of watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - the most recent dispatch of the Amphion Commando, Dolphin Magenta, and Odin Blue...

There are only 2 no-date Amphions left in the world, both at Serious in the EU.

There are only 2 with-dates left within the US, at Watch Gauge. Also 2 with-dates left at Serious.

There is only 1 no-date Dolphin Magenta left in the world, at Serious. That's also where there is only 1 with-date left in the EU.

There are only 2 with-dates left in the US, both at Watch Gauge.

There's 1 Odin Blue no-date left in the world, at Watch Gauge.

There are only 2 Odin with-dates left in the EU, at Serious.

I don't know when or if we'll make more of any of these versions, or if we do, if they'll be in the v.1 case, so...if you want one, I wouldn't think about it too long.

Regarding the v.2 Tropics - I hope to have a few more of the Cointreau coming in, but we're waiting to receive them from my vendor. For now, they're all but sold out, with the last 3 pieces remaining located in Korea (1 pc at Intowatch), Hong Kong (1 pc at The Watchdrobe), and New Zealand (1 pc at Five:45).

For all other Tropics versions, remaining inventory is mostly low single-digits wherever they're in stock. I think Watch Gauge and Serious might be working out some inventory swaps, but for now, Watch Gauge has 1 no-date Azores in either color, and Serious is down to 1 with-date Azores in either color, at least as of yesterday. Watch Gecko is down to their last Dark Rum with-date in the UK.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I misunderstood in that case. Perhaps I was more thinking in terms of one-off. As in not one of a series or family of watches.


By that definition, the Tikuna would be included alongside the Bahia, Santa Cruz, Santa Fe, Tiburon, Skipjack, Vanguard, and Zwaardvis.

I never really thought of those as "one-offs", partly because there are 8 of them, but more so because we made more than 1 piece of all of them, and half of the 8, we made more than once.

Those we didn't make more than once, I would have made again, had the first batch sold well enough to rationalize making more. Thus, none were originally conceived to be "limited", or only made once, and never again.

In my mind, a "one-off" is something we make that is somewhat ad-hoc, and typically an assembly of only one piece, such as that DLC Santa Fe we made some months back. We won't be making more, because we don't have any more Santa Fe dials, and I'm not about to order another 50 of them.

Likewise, in our parts supplies, we've got just 2 Amphion Dark Gilt dials (applied indices, not gilt-relief), and 2 Scorpene Black dials, which I think would go well in a DLC case, which we also happen to have available. So we're planning to assemble those 4 dials into 4 "one-offs", as each one will be (or at least could be) a true one-of-a kind, given that for each of the 2 dial designs, we've got 1 with-date and 1 no-date, and for the Amphions, we've agreed to assemble them with whichever bezel insert the guy buying the watch wants us to install.

The "one-off special collaboration projects" are only "one-off" because we only did each of those once, with a limited focus, with exclusive sale to or by some group or entity, without any plans to make or sell more in the future, and because someone outside our in-house design team contributed heavily to the design - the BSHT guys, Mark Kiger, Kaj from Serious Watches, or TGV from the Urban Gentry.

Anything else is just another version of the Subs, as far as my thinking about them goes, regardless of whether there's only one version, or more than one.

We didn't make a different version of the Santa Cruz, or Tikuna, just as two examples, because we didn't see the point in it. I figure we nailed it the first time, and there's no point in trying to tweak it, just to take another run at it, the way we did with the Oberon v.2 (wherein we changed the lume color, handset and bezel, and tweaked the dial pattern a bit).

Perhaps a blue Tikuna might be interesting, but what would a black Santa Cruz be, if not a v.1 Oberon, just without the 3-6-9 numbering? Those differences aren't enough to rationalize the development or production of those ideas, in my opinion.

With some designs, making it some other way just isn't an interesting enough idea for me to pursue. We've got drafts of a blue version of this design, or a black version of that design, but having made over 40 different versions of the Subs, with 14 different basic combos of dials/handsets, and watching how each of them has sold, I feel like I've got a pretty strong sense of which ideas are worth developing and producing, and which aren't.

With other versions, where there's more than one colorway, it was because the design lent itself to making it different ways. I think any version of the Barracuda stands up to any other version, in terms of how solid a concept the design is. The Barracuda Vintage Black may be the best-selling version, but I don't think its design is objectively superior to the Blue, Brown, or Polar White.

With the Amphions, Nackens, Nazarios, etc, I think some are stronger than others, and there are a few we could have skipped, but for the most part, I think they're all equally valid design concepts.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Only because talking about this has forced me to think about it, this is how I mentally group the various Subs models, when we've made more than one version:

Amphions - traditional Rolex dial pattern (indices), plus MilSub style sword hands, and a fully-indexed bezel.

Barracudas - traditional Rolex dial pattern, plus snowflake hands, and a bezel that only has markers every 5 minutes.

Nacken - snowflake hands, square/rectangular indices, and (usually) a bezel that only has markers every 5 minutes.

Nazario - California dial and cathedral hands. Whatever we want the bezel to be.

Oberon - 3-6-9-triangle "Explorer" dial with waffle texture, and either Mercedes (v.1) or pencil (v.2) hands.

Odin - Omega SMP dial pattern, sword hands, and a fully indexed bezel.

Dolphin - Tudor-sub dial pattern, with curved Dauphine hands.

Scorpene - 3-6-9-12 "Big Number" pilot dial with fully-lumed pilot-style sword hands (no frames), and (usually), a fully-indexed bezel, with the 59 and 01 markers being a dot, rather than a line.

Holland/Santa Cruz/Santa Fe - traditional Rolex dial pattern, Merc hands, and some sort of dial texture/finish. All of them not just named after a class of Subs, but also after a physical place (somewhat coincidentally).

For some version to be called "Modern", it has to have applied indices. For it to be called "Vintage", it has to either be a rough-textured (sand- or rice-paper) dial, or a gilt-relief dial.

So, when someone asks me something along the lines of "Will you make a Barracuda with sword or Merc hands?", or, "Will you make an Amphion without a fully-indexed bezel?", the obvious answer is "no", because without snowflake hands, it's not a Barracuda. It'd be an Amphion if it had sword hands, or something else if it had Merc hands. Without a fully indexed bezel, it's not an Amphion. Without snowflake hands and square markers, it's not a Nacken, etc, etc, etc.

Just the way I view this, but grouping the various design cues from each version together, and more-or-less rigidly sticking with those groupings, keeps us focused, and avoids veering off into endless design tangents, whereby every aspect of the design - dial pattern, dial texture, handset, bezel markings - is variable, and thereby invites never-ending debate / criticism of the relative merits of every individual decision, and infinite suggestions / requests we do something just slightly different, with me typing a WOT explaining why we can't / won't.

Just kill me now.

If you want a different bezel on your Amphion, buy a Barracuda or Nacken insert, and swap it out. That's my solution and blanket response to all such requests / suggestions.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Only because talking about this has forced me to think about it, this is how I mentally group the various Subs models, when we've made more than one version:
> 
> Amphions - traditional Rolex dial pattern (indices), plus MilSub style sword hands, and a fully-indexed bezel.
> 
> ...


Hey man, it's Friday afternoon. Time to pop a cold one and breathe! I was going to say it's 5 somewhere and time for happy hour, but I didn't want you to have to look at the time (especially on a watch)!

FWIW, I've been so enamored by my set of Tropics that I ordered a Swiftsure a bit ago, along with orange band, from WatchGauge. As a one person sample size, I think you're doing great and should keep up the excellence!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For my statistics geeks...

To date, on average, we made 100 of each version of the Subs, when we combine date/no-date versions. The median (mid-point of the range) was 60, and the mode (most frequently recurring number), was 50.

Not differentiating between all the various versions, we made almost twice as many no-dates compared to with-dates, roughly a 65-35 split (65 no-date, 35 with-date).


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

mmmmmm....Blue Tikuna....


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> Only because talking about this has forced me to think about it, this is how I mentally group the various Subs models, when we've made more than one version:
> 
> Amphions - traditional Rolex dial pattern (indices), plus MilSub style sword hands, and a fully-indexed bezel.
> 
> ...


Thanks... I'd been going through the past and present lineup to see the concept for each sub version and try to figure out which one I want, and you just summed all of that up in one post.

That Amphion Vintage Gilt... wish I could find one of those now.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

And on that note, here's a Friday afternoon "just because"&#8230;


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Just the way I view this, but grouping the various design cues from each version together, and more-or-less *rigidly sticking with those groupings, keeps us focused, *and avoids veering off into endless design tangents, whereby every aspect of the design - dial pattern, dial texture, handset, bezel markings - is variable, and thereby invites never-ending debate / criticism of the relative merits of every individual decision, and infinite suggestions / requests we do something just slightly different, with me typing a WOT explaining why we can't / won't.
> 
> Just kill me now.
> 
> If you want a different bezel on your Amphion, buy a Barracuda or Nacken insert, and swap it out. That's my solution and blanket response to all such requests / suggestions.


I totally agree. Having a distinct and numerically limited number of designs is vital for good brand coherence.
People know what's what, they know what you make. There's a set number of very recognisable products. And there's no over exposure leading to boredom from endless pointless variations.
Like you say if someone wants to mix it up, that's an individual choice.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

( @rpm1974 - you may want to pay attention. Feel free to ping me if you want to discuss. )

Ah, the joys of owning a microbrand...

I just wrapped up the most recent message in an ongoing email exchange with my box factory.

As a general rule, many vendors will under-value shipments, in order to minimize import duties. That said, those duties aren't based on a simple percentage of declared value. There's a global import/export system (The Harmonized Tariff System, or HTS for short) of applying a specific numerical code to every product under the sun. The import duty calculations vary (a lot) by code. And, if a vendor uses the wrong one, it can dramatically affect how much the import duties are.

Along with trying to negotiate the lowest shipping rates from couriers, part of the game of running an international business is finding the "right" tariff codes, or getting "close enough", in order to not pay any more than we have to.

For any product, there may be more than one code which would seem applicable. So, for a leather travel case for a watch, you might start by searching "boxes", or "leather products", or "containers designed for the safe conveyance of goods", or, as the case may be...

_"Trunks, suitcases, vanity cases, attache cases, briefcases, school satchels, spectacle cases, binocular cases, camera cases, musical instrument cases, gun cases, holsters and similar containers; traveling bags, insulated food or beverage bags, toiletry bags, knapsacks and backpacks, handbags, shopping bags, wallets, purses, map cases, cigarette cases, tobacco pouches, tool bags, sports bags, bottle cases, jewelry boxes, powder cases, cutlery cases and similar containers, of leather or of composition leather, of sheeting of plastics, of textile materials, of vulcanized fiber or of paperboard, or wholly or mainly covered with such materials or with paper."_​
I'm not $hltting you. That entire text block is the main heading for that specific HTS code.

On a typical box shipment, I used to pay ~3% import duties. Two years back, they must have let the FNG (f**king new guy) fill out the customs forms, because I got whacked with 20% import duties, on the full value, on top of the 25% tariffs Trump slapped on all goods coming from China at the time.

As you may imagine, I was displeased.

Ever since, they've been using the HTS code I asked them to use, which I think fell under the heading of "products made of leather". But they're now telling me that they need to use the code above (the one with the huge text block), which bumps the rate to 8%, because if not, the new scrutiny they're apparently under from export officials will lead to my boxes being stuck in customs (likely indefinitely).

Only to reinforce my earlier point, the code above, at 8%, falls under the same main heading as the one that cost me 20% two years ago. They only differ in their sub-headings. Like I said, get this wrong, or if your vendors get it wrong, it's a costly mistake.

On top of that, after I've gone to the trouble of negotiating decent shipping rates with FedEx, UPS, and DHL, they're telling me they want to use the account of their local freight-forwarder, because "reasons" (i.e., reasons I don't quite get, because they weren't very-well explained). Something about keeping things smooth with customs.

The international shipping costs are getting insane, about double what they were just two years ago, pre-Covid, pre-higher fuel costs.

I $hlt you not.

As it happens - my uncle owns a business making a different product, in China. He ships the product here by boat, in those big, steel cargo containers. I called him last week to get his advice about something, and he told me his container costs went from $1,500 to $4,000, or something like that.

We got to talking about what recent inflation does to businesses. We can't help or avoid higher shipping costs, or most other costs that go up, for that matter. All we can do is raise the price of the product. It sucks for customers, and probably hurts sales, but it's unavoidable.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> ( @rpm1974 - you may want to pay attention. Feel free to ping me if you want to discuss. )
> 
> Ah, the joys of owning a microbrand...
> 
> ...


With a great explanation like that, I wouldn't question a price increase in line with your increased costs&#8230;as opposed to price increases because something has become popular, so exponentially increase prices (see Rolex).

As for "Something about keeping things smooth with customs.", kickbacks have been going on since the dawn of time&#8230;


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> As it happens - my uncle owns a business making a different product, in China. He ships the product here by boat, in those big, steel cargo containers. I called him last week to get his advice about something, and he told me his container costs went from $1,500 to $4,000, or something like that.


I read something recently about how the post-Covid ramp-up has thrown many supply chains for a loop. One of the things they focused on was shipping containers. We went into lockdown right as Chinese manufacturing started to recover, so as we imported tons of PPE and whatever from China, those containers came here and only half as many went back because our exports were slashed. As a result, containers for cargo going from China to here tripled in price because of increased demand and lower supply.

The takeaway... "Just in time" supply chains are great as long as things are stable. But as soon as something disruptive happens, you wish you had that inventory you worked so hard to get rid of.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> With a great explanation like that, I wouldn't question a price increase in line with your increased costs&#8230;as opposed to price increases because something has become popular, so exponentially increase prices (see Rolex).
> 
> As for "Something about keeping things smooth with customs.", kickbacks have been going on since the dawn of time&#8230;


I appreciate that, but I guess my point was, businesses are under two opposing pressures, both due to inflation.

On the one hand - my costs are going up, which typically would push prices up. On the other hand, I'm not an idiot. I realize my customers are spending more on food, gas, and just about everything else. Watches are a discretionary purchase - a purchase made with discretionary income. There has to be some.

While I doubt most of my customers are living paycheck to paycheck, it occurs to me that my business isn't an island. We need to consider what our competitors are doing, and what the market will bear.

After predicting (three years ago) that my competitors would need to start raising prices soon, and seeing most of them NOT do it, my gut feeling is that many of my competitors would be more likely to eat the higher costs than raise prices. And even if not, or if what they charge doesn't have as much bearing on my business, I should nonetheless be prepared to see fewer sales if we raise prices, if only because some portion of our customers will be priced out by any price increase.

We're raising the prices on the DevilRay, by $25 over the previous release, from last year. Honestly, it really ought to be $50, but I'm hedging my bets. The v.2 Tropics likewise should have been priced a little higher, as should the v.2 Subs. I'm just doing my best to hold the line as much as we can, while waiting for the other shoe to drop.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> I read something recently about how the post-Covid ramp-up has thrown many supply chains for a loop. One of the things they focused on was shipping containers. We went into lockdown right as Chinese manufacturing started to recover, so as we imported tons of PPE and whatever from China, those containers came here and only half as many went back because our exports were slashed. As a result, containers for cargo going from China to here tripled in price because of increased demand and lower supply.
> 
> The takeaway... "Just in time" supply chains are great as long as things are stable. But as soon as something disruptive happens, you wish you had that inventory you worked so hard to get rid of.


I was fortunate, very fortunate, in that regard, last year. I got my production order in before covid, and as such, we were able to take delivery of our first 2 releases last year (in January and March), without any issues.

Unfortunately, the next release was the DevilRay, last July, and I didn't yet know what was happening with shipping costs, which is why I had to increase the price of that model this year.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Horoticus said:


> mmmmmm....Blue Tikuna....


I'm on the same page... 
I'd love to see a digital mock up of what might've been/be.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I shouldn't have said the 25% tariffs were on everything. They weren't. They were mostly on raw materials and some products we also make here, mostly stuff with some degree of perceived strategic importance.

It wasn't applied to watches, as far as I know. But it was applied to our boxes, I think because they *could* be made here. But, of course, there value is much lower than the watches'.

At the time, when someone asked if and how the tariffs affected my business, or might, I'd explain they wouldn't have much impact, and wouldn't have the desired effect, for reasons I alluded to earlier.

The lower costs to produce most products in China isn't going to be offset by a 25% tariff, not when their labor costs are 1/10th what ours are, and most vendors there are declaring a lower value on whatever they're shipping here.

A 25% tariff really isn't, in that case, and even if it was, it wouldn't be enough to force the industry to move production here.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MrDisco99 said:


> I'm not normally into mods, but that one is fantastic.


I just noticed your profile says you're in Georgia? Whereabouts? I'm in Kennesaw most of the time, and could let you see the three I have. Amphion Commando, Vanguard, Frankenstein...


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> I just noticed your profile says you're in Georgia? Whereabouts? I'm in Kennesaw most of the time, and could let you see the three I have. Amphion Commando, Vanguard, Frankenstein...


I live far enough that from here, Kennesaw is Atlanta. Thanks for the offer, though. 

I saw your picture in an Airbus cockpit. You fly for Delta?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MrDisco99 said:


> I live far enough that from here, Kennesaw is Atlanta. Thanks for the offer, though.
> 
> I saw your picture in an Airbus cockpit. You fly for Delta?


I fly for a large international airline, and I live in Georgia....


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> I fly for a large international airline, and I live in Georgia....


Ah I knew it....Aeroflot!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> The international shipping costs are getting insane, about double what they were just two years ago, pre-Covid, pre-higher fuel costs.
> 
> I $hlt you not.
> 
> As it happens - my uncle owns a business making a different product, in China. He ships the product here by boat, in those big, steel cargo containers. I called him last week to get his advice about something, and he told me his container *costs went from $1,500 to $4,000, or something like that.*


Can confirm.

I try not to make blanket statements about "China," but right after tariffs went into effect, two completely different vendors in provinces far apart (Shanghai vs. Shenzhen) all of a sudden decided to provide Customs invoices with product unit cost listed at marked MSRP, instead of mfg unit price.

Our freight forwarders said they were seeing a lot of this. Hard not to believe that some kind of political Central Planning directive went out to make life miserable for US buyers, as some little skirmish in a trade war...

That said, manufacturing in the US for books is currently f'd as well. After years of plant closures and industry consolidation, and closures of paper mills, with a sudden boom in book sales, paper pricing is going up and print schedules are getting longer than publishers usually plan.

Exciting times...


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I’m here for my regular check in. Still excited and awaiting the V.2 sub release. Seems like the prices might go up…. Such is life…. Not that I don’t mind reading about tariffs and import taxes, or anything really. I enjoy reading docs posts no matter what the subject matter. However, the recent topics of discussion are much less popcorn worthy. 

Anyway, thanks for letting me check in, and renew the thread notifications.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I'm here for my regular check in. Still excited and awaiting the V.2 sub release. Seems like the prices might go up&#8230;. Such is life&#8230;. Not that I don't mind reading about tariffs and import taxes, or anything really. I enjoy reading docs posts no matter what the subject matter. However, the recent topics of discussion are much less popcorn worthy.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for letting me check in, and renew the thread notifications.


I'll try to start a large, long-lasting, and pointless debate here, as soon as I can.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'll try to start a large, long-lasting, and pointless debate here, as soon as I can.


I knew I could count on you Doc!

I find myself in a bit of a dilemma as to the new V.2 releases. I currently have a V.1 Barracuda vintage black no date.

I really want a V.1 Nacken modern blue and a V.2 Barracuda vintage black in my collection. Do I sell the current Barracuda to buy a Nacken modern blue and then buy a V.2 Barracuda, and likely lose some money doing so?

Or

Do I just buy a V.2 Nacken modern blue no-date, and swap the insides between the two? I know doing so would void both warranties, and I know Doc is likely a huge fan of this option. Based on what I've read from Doc this should be possible&#8230;. But maybe it's no&#8230;.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I've changed more than my share of inserts, but this one gave me the most fits. Totally worth it!










I've got to say, Doc, your messaging about inspecting your order was noteworthy - I must've been warned 7-8x. ??


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Your Saturday "just because" shot&#8230;


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Twehttam said:


> I've changed more than my share of inserts, but this one gave me the most fits. Totally worth it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you break like five razor blade corners off? Because YEAH.

Looks a great though!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I knew I could count on you Doc!
> 
> I find myself in a bit of a dilemma as to the new V.2 releases. I currently have a V.1 Barracuda vintage black no date.
> 
> ...


I don't know why it wouldn't be possible to just swap the innards around.

The only new v.1 Modern Blues left available are in S. Korea and New Zealand. I'd likely try to get one from Five:45 in NZ, as I know they're willing to strip the GST out of the price if you're not in NZ.

Otherwise, you're looking at finding one on the used market, which shouldn't be too hard.

Likewise, I don't think it would be too hard to sell your BVB, if you decide to pick up a new one.


----------



## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> I don't know why it wouldn't be possible to just swap the innards around.
> 
> The only new v.1 Modern Blues left available are in S. Korea and New Zealand. I'd likely try to get one from Five:45 in NZ, as I know they're willing to strip the GST out of the price if you're not in NZ.
> 
> ...


Based on the way you've spoken of people modifying their watches in the past I did not expect you to support any swapping of parts. The one snag are the bezel inserts and I had forgotten all about them when originally thinking about swapping the innards between the two cases.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Based on the way you've spoken of people modifying their watches in the past I did not expect you to support any swapping of parts. The one snag are the bezel inserts and I had forgotten all about them when originally thinking about swapping the innards between the two cases.


I don't support it. But you didn't ask if I support it, you wondered if it was possible.

I always prefer people leave their watches stock, but I know watch geeks gonna watch geek, so it is what it is. I know I can't stop peeps from doing things they ought not to do.

Hypothetically, let's say someone opened their case, in order to swap the innards with another watch. If that's all they did, and nothing was messed up on either watch, then both should work. What are the odds either watch is going to subsequently break, and we'd be in the position of having to determine if the warranty is still valid or not?

If, on the other hand, someone screwed something up inside the case while doing the swap, and lies about what happened, or otherwise tries to hide what they did, in order to get us to fix it, we would more than likely be able to tell as soon as we got the screwed-up watch back.

Watchmaker Dan can always tell. It would be very difficult to disassemble one of our watches and not leave any clue. There's always a tool mark left somewhere it shouldn't be, or some other tell-tale sign. One slip with the case-back wrench, or the screwdriver, and you're making a mark Dan will spot, easily.

I pay him to find tiny imperfections on brand new watches. Finding the evidence of some ham-and-egger mauling a watch during a mod should be easy enough for him.

If someone's able to get one past Dan, okay, then one gets past us. I'll be out the cost of a movement and Dan's time. If that's $100-ish, I'd rather not piss away the money helping some dishonest idiot, but life and business go on.

EDIT/PS - I'm not referring to you as a dishonest idiot, only acknowledging that such fools are out there, and we've had a few try to slip one past us.

All of my previous warnings about not voiding your warranty aside, there have been guys who messed up, and admitted it, and asked if we could help. So long as a guy isn't trying to BS us, we try to help. I just sent a replacement handset to a longtime friend and repeat customer, because he mangled his trying to re-align them.

I don't recommend everyone start fiddling with their watches, on the assumption we'll have the parts they need if the worst happens, because we may not, but if we do, and as long as peeps shoot straight with us, we'll do what we can.

There was a recent instance of someone butchering a used NTH Sub, then selling it, and the next owner trying to get us to fix it. Without re-telling the wholes story, I made the same offer to four different guys who'd owned that watch - the original owner/seller, the second owner (who I think screwed it up), and the two guys that last guy sold the watch to.

I offered to sell them a new case, or just the bezel ring and other parts needed/desired. It wasn't covered under warranty, but I would have been happy enough to sell the parts.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Happy Father's Day, everyone.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Any more questions anybody......??

Need to know more about the eccentric design..............









15 Questions With: Chris Vail of NTH Watches


Next to feature in our ongoing series of 15 Questions With is Chris Vail. Chris is probably best known for his work in the watch industry where he has built up the NTH microbrand. Based out of America, NTH has been his baby ever since 2016 as he continues to develop the brand positioning every...




www.watchgecko.com





Cheerz,

Alan


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ragl said:


> Any more questions anybody......??
> 
> Need to know more about the eccentric design..............
> 
> ...


The answer to question 15 has me intrigued, as I dont remember it being discussed here....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> The answer to question 15 has me intrigued, as I dont remember it being discussed here....


Hasn't really been discussed anywhere. It's something I've been working on, on-and-off, for a couple years. Just can't seem to find the time to finish it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Hasn't really been discussed anywhere. It's something I've been working on, on-and-off, for a couple years. Just can't seem to find the time to finish it.


You probably should've _not_ said that. Because now I, at a minimum, will have to pester you about it until you _do _finish it. Or at least show us what you've got rattling around in your noodle.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Hasn't really been discussed anywhere. It's something I've been working on, on-and-off, for a couple years. Just can't seem to find the time to finish it.


I'm terrible with the search, but I'm positive you mentioned it at least once previously.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> The answer to question 15 has me intrigued, as I dont remember it being discussed here....


I agree, excited about that one especially!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Beach afternoon with the family!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Happy grillmaster's day!


















-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Happy grillmaster's day!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Abita?!?!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Confession, I have not tried sorghum beer. Educate me?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Ragl said:


> Any more questions anybody......??
> 
> Need to know more about the eccentric design..............
> 
> ...


Couldn't help myself... just had to go and take a peak at what a "Divido Minase" looked liked.

What is it about that watch that took the breath away Doc?

For me it's the GoS Väring Viking... stunning. If you ever do a reasonably priced Nth that looks anything like that... take my money Doc!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> No Abita?!?!


#celiacsucks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Confession, I have not tried sorghum beer. Educate me?


This one is pretty darn good, actually. I've got celiac disease, so no barley hops for me. It really limits what I can drink, so I do what I've gotta do. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Couldn't help myself... just had to go and take a peak at what a "Divido Minase" looked liked.
> 
> What is it about that watch that took the breath away Doc?
> 
> ...


It may be like many things, that pics don't do it justice. Minase watches in general are amazing, particularly the case work - the machining and the finishing - which is truly stunning when seen up close.

I think I have a soft spot for Japanese design, and Minase's designs strike me as being very Japanese.

The design of the Divido in particular speaks to me, as it incorporates certain elements I've always loved, in much the same way the Zenith El Primero Espada and the Lew & Huey Cerberus did.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> It may be like many things, that pics don't do it justice. Minase watches in general are amazing, particularly the case work - the machining and the finishing - which is truly stunning when seen up close.
> 
> I think I have a soft spot for Japanese design, and Minase's designs strike me as being very Japanese.
> 
> ...


That blue Minase Divido appears to be the perfect watch. That said I never even heard of the brand before but that design is just killer. How do they get that liquid effect in the dial?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> That blue Minase Divido appears to be the perfect watch. That said I never even heard of the brand before but that design is just killer. How do they get that liquid effect in the dial?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The exploded view really shows how much goes into those watches...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> This one is pretty darn good, actually. I've got celiac disease, so no barley hops for me. It really limits what I can drink, so I do what I've gotta do.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My apologies goateed broseph! I read up on sorghum beer and it is big in some countries I have yet to visit. Thanks for giving me something to look for next trip to Rouses


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ike2 said:


> That blue Minase Divido appears to be the perfect watch. That said I never even heard of the brand before but that design is just killer. How do they get that liquid effect in the dial?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Magic, definitely magic


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> It may be like many things, that pics don't do it justice. Minase watches in general are amazing, particularly the case work - the machining and the finishing - which is truly stunning when seen up close.
> 
> I think I have a soft spot for Japanese design, and Minase's designs strike me as being very Japanese.
> 
> ...


Just learned we share appreciation for this design. I have 2 Cerbs, had 3 and tried my damndest to get an Espada recently.

[Insert reference to ultra secret vintage project from the WatchGecko interview article here]

I really wanted to beat @TheBearded mentioning it!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Just learned we share appreciation for this design. I have 2 Cerbs, had 3 and tried my damndest to get an Espada recently.
> 
> [Insert reference to ultra secret vintage project from the WatchGecko interview article here]
> 
> I really wanted to beat @TheBearded mentioning it!


I would wear the sh*t out of an Espada.
Mostly because I really want a non chrono EP. The watch looks great... But its all about what's under the hood for me with that'un.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> It may be like many things, that pics don't do it justice. Minase watches in general are amazing, particularly the case work - the machining and the finishing - which is truly stunning when seen up close.
> 
> I think I have a soft spot for Japanese design, and Minase's designs strike me as being very Japanese.
> 
> ...


The blue looks amazing... also just looked prices for second hand... eek!

Mind you the Väring Viking runs at least double that in USD and I'm a....hmmmm could I?

Oh well, more overtime required!









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

The machining on the bracelet of the Divido is truly stunning. I want to handle and take one apart just to appreciate the amount of work that looks to have gone into it.


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

rpm1974 said:


> This one is pretty darn good, actually. I've got celiac disease, so no barley hops for me. It really limits what I can drink, so I do what I've gotta do.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ghostfish and Glutenberg are both really awesome options for true gluten free beer (not the gluten reduced stuff).


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

And for an Nth related post, I just bought a blue no-date Odin to go along with my black one. Always felt like I missed out on the blue Odin, so was happy to see this in stock.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NS1 said:


> And for an Nth related post, I just bought a blue no-date Odin to go along with my black one. Always felt like I missed out on the blue Odin, so was happy to see this in stock.


Thanks for your order!


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## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Been a while since I have worn this tough watch and still love the way it fits to my wrist! Couldn't find my Bond NATO, but figured this rubber strap would work just as well!









Also has the best lume out of all the watches I own! Truly in a league of it's own 👍


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Two rubber straps ordered, one for the Oberon, one for the Orthos. Getting them ready for even more summer wear!!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

NS1 said:


> Ghostfish and Glutenberg are both really awesome options for true gluten free beer (not the gluten reduced stuff).


Haven't tried the Ghostfish but I do like the Glutenberg.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Nice subtle win tonight. Do we really need to play game 6? 8-0! 









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

A Tuesday "just because"&#8230;just because my Swiftsure arrived today along with ordered orange rubber strap&#8230;here is my new summer wear! Love the fact the band was not G-shock length and fits my 7 inch wrist quite nicely.

p.s. Time and date since adjusted to current. Was too enamored with myself for getting strap on that I needed pictures immediately. Putting those 2k1 pins in that orange watch band was "interesting"&#8230;but absolutely zero threat of them flying across the room!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> A Tuesday "just because"&#8230;just because my Swiftsure arrived today along with ordered orange rubber strap&#8230;here is my new summer wear! Love the fact the band was not G-shock length and fits my 7 inch wrist quite nicely.
> 
> p.s. Time and date since adjusted to current. Was too enamored with myself for getting strap on that I needed pictures immediately. Putting those 2k1 pins in that orange watch band was "interesting"&#8230;but absolutely zero threat of them flying across the room!


1. Looks great. Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.

2. Why was it "interesting"? Admittedly, it's been a few months since I did it, but I don't recall it being difficult to get the bars into the straps. My recollection is that they went in easily enough.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alright, so...about them DLC Scorpenes...

Mconlonx emailed me to grab one before they hit the website, which means we have one left, a no-date.

Before I tell Dan to assemble it with the standard Scorpene bezel, does anyone here want it, but with a different bezel insert?

If so, email me at customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com.

Otherwise, I'll tell Dan to throw the regular insert in there, and throw it up on the NTH site. 

True one-of-a-kind here, folks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Update on the PayPal fraud emotional roller-coaster...

Got an email today, saying one of the cases was closed, but with no other useful information.

So I called PayPal, and was told BOTH cases were closed, resolved NOT in my favor, so I'm just out the money.

Shortest possible explanation...

1. Both transactions, the PP account wasn't "verified". Instead of connecting to someone's bank account, the customers apparently paid with a credit card, but through PayPal.

2. In those cases, instead of the customer filing the dispute with PayPal, they file with the credit card company.

3. Even though I did everything "correctly", and I can't control what FedEx does with the packages once we ship them (to the PP confirmed address, by the way), in both cases, the packages were re-routed to a local FedEx hub for pick-up by the customer, and that's where the trouble starts...

4. Even though someone would have had to show ID to pick up the package, which would disprove any claim of "I didn't authorize that transaction", apparently PayPal's "seller protection" has some fine-print, which says, among other things, that the delivery location must be within 10 miles of the confirmed address. And, in these cases, the FedEx hub was just outside of that - 13 miles.

Yes, I am displeased.

The PayPal rep I spoke to tried to be helpful. She said she'd chase it down some more internally, to see if any exception can be made. She wasn't unmoved by my pointing out that I was only told the two accounts weren't verified AFTER I'd shipped both watches, or that merchants have no control over what FedEx or any other courier does once we ship.

I'm not hopeful.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> 1. Looks great. Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.
> 
> 2. Why was it "interesting"? Admittedly, it's been a few months since I did it, but I don't recall it being difficult to get the bars into the straps. My recollection is that they went in easily enough.


Had to apply what I thought was an extraordinary amount of pressure after each side of strap had pin about halfway in by pushing down on both sides adjacent to pin, with pin end sitting on and pushing into table (few pieces of paper in between to prevent table damage). Sweating the whole time the pins were going to either bend to be unusable or the tip would blunt to unusable&#8230;knowing those were the only pins currently in my house that would fit. Lots of extra 1.5s, no other 1.8s. No worries, they went in. And as many pins as I've shot across my kitchen, wasn't too bothered since I couldn't lose them!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Had to apply what I thought was an extraordinary amount of pressure after each side of strap had pin about halfway in by pushing down on both sides adjacent to pin, with pin end sitting on and pushing into table (few pieces of paper in between to prevent table damage). Sweating the whole time the pins were going to either bend to be unusable or the tip would blunt to unusable&#8230;knowing those were the only pins currently in my house that would fit. Lots of extra 1.5s, no other 1.8s. No worries, they went in. And as many pins as I've shot across my kitchen, wasn't too bothered since I couldn't lose them!


Hmmmm...

I'll admit, I don't have any record of my experience with this. I do recall having to do what you've described on occasion, but not specifically with those straps. It's entirely possible I'm just forgetting.

The tropic straps are quite tight, even on the 1.5mm wide spring bars used in the BOR bracelets.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Had to apply what I thought was an extraordinary amount of pressure after each side of strap had pin about halfway in by pushing down on both sides adjacent to pin, with pin end sitting on and pushing into table (few pieces of paper in between to prevent table damage). Sweating the whole time the pins were going to either bend to be unusable or the tip would blunt to unusable&#8230;knowing those were the only pins currently in my house that would fit. Lots of extra 1.5s, no other 1.8s. No worries, they went in. And as many pins as I've shot across my kitchen, wasn't too bothered since I couldn't lose them!





docvail said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> I'll admit, I don't have any record of my experience with this. I do recall having to do what you've described on occasion, but not specifically with those straps. It's entirely possible I'm just forgetting.
> 
> The tropic straps are quite tight, even on the 1.5mm wide spring bars used in the BOR bracelets.


I had the same experience with the fitted rubber on my Swiftsure. The standard spring bars that come with it are easy in/out. The 1.8s to truly make it "fitted" I had to force in the same way. They ain't coming out without some work.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh...

How long before I start getting angry emails from people, because we don't sell 1.8mm bars, and didn't include a pair with the straps?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Ugh...
> 
> How long before I start getting angry emails from people, because we don't sell 1.8mm bars, and didn't include a pair with the straps?


Tell em to piss off and buy em from Esslinger. Pack of 10 for about $3.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Ugh...
> 
> How long before I start getting angry emails from people, because we don't sell 1.8mm bars, and didn't include a pair with the straps?


? don't need to sell them, just point folks to someone who does! Can't imagine there's money in that unless you're selling thousands (and thousands). Personally, I wouldnt need them unless I wanted to put bracelet back on, which I think will be never. White diver on shiny bracelet never appealed to me, probably not on black bracelet either.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I also remember the included 2K1 spring bars to be a very snug fit in the band.


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## whatisk (Mar 5, 2020)

Got my Dark Rum yesterday so now need to get the band adjusted. Unfortunately don't have the required tool as haven't had a screw bar band before - others have been just push the pin out.
I'm assuming adjusting the clasp is getting something to pop the spring bar so it can then be put into another hole on the clasp? The specs on the page mention a ratchet clasp but can't see how that may work.

Are there any recommended tools to make swapping bands or making further adjustments to the band if required easy?

Once I have the band sorted I'll post some pics.

Cheers.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

whatisk said:


> Got my Dark Rum yesterday so now need to get the band adjusted. Unfortunately don't have the required tool as haven't had a screw bar band before - others have been just push the pin out.
> I'm assuming adjusting the clasp is getting something to pop the spring bar so it can then be put into another hole on the clasp? The specs on the page mention a ratchet clasp but can't see how that may work.
> 
> Are there any recommended tools to make swapping bands or making further adjustments to the band if required easy?
> ...


Get yourself a 1.2mm(IIRC, its 1.2) screwdriver for the bracelet links and some Loctite 222. Loctite the threads of each screw for peace of mind, screws _do_ back out from normal wear. Also a two sided spring bar tool, one will have a simple pin, the other will have a fork. The pin can be used to change the position of the micro adjust on the clasp, the fork is for pulling the spring bar out of its holes when its seated.

Amazon should have everything you need for the fewest $$.

If you're not averse to spending a little more, Bergeon makes high quality watch tools.

Edit: that's the spring bar tool I'm referring to. You'll want something similar.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

whatisk said:


> Got my Dark Rum yesterday so now need to get the band adjusted. Unfortunately don't have the required tool as haven't had a screw bar band before - others have been just push the pin out.
> I'm assuming adjusting the clasp is getting something to pop the spring bar so it can then be put into another hole on the clasp? The specs on the page mention a ratchet clasp but can't see how that may work.
> 
> Are there any recommended tools to make swapping bands or making further adjustments to the band if required easy?
> ...


Another quick note...
If your never had a clasp with micro adjust holes, I suggest putting your bracelet towards the middle, like 2 holes out from its furthest point in, before sizing. That way you can adjust both tighter and looser without adding or removing links.


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## whatisk (Mar 5, 2020)

TheBearded said:


> Get yourself a 1.2mm(IIRC, its 1.2) screwdriver for the bracelet links and some Loctite 222. Loctite the threads of each screw for peace of mind, screws _do_ back out from normal wear. Also a two sided spring bar tool, one will have a simple pin, the other will have a fork. The pin can be used to change the position of the micro adjust on the clasp, the fork is for pulling the spring bar out of its holes when its seated.
> 
> Amazon should have everything you need for the fewest $$.
> 
> If you're not averse to spending a little more, Bergeon makes high quality watch tools.


Thanks for the reply. I did read that it's a 1.2mm screwdriver for the bracelet. May still look at taking it somewhere to get adjusted for me as I'd be paranoid about slipping and scratching the brand new band or watch. But will look at getting one as well as some Loctite so I can keep an eye on the screws in the future and re-tighten/add some loctite as needed.

I'll also look into getting a spring bar tool for the micro-adjusts and spring bar when changing straps.

And yes, the plan when getting the band adjusted was to have it in the micro-holes towards the centre so I could do some minor adjustments easily if required at a later stage without having to add or remove links 🙂

EDIT: Looking at the Bergeon spring bar tool, is the 6767-F or 6767-S the recommended one?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

whatisk said:


> Got my Dark Rum yesterday so now need to get the band adjusted. Unfortunately don't have the required tool as haven't had a screw bar band before - others have been just push the pin out.
> I'm assuming adjusting the clasp is getting something to pop the spring bar so it can then be put into another hole on the clasp? The specs on the page mention a ratchet clasp but can't see how that may work.
> 
> Are there any recommended tools to make swapping bands or making further adjustments to the band if required easy?
> ...


Can you tell me which page mentions a ratcheting clasp? There was one on the original v.1 Tropics, but not the current v.2 versions.

The clasp is attached to the bracelet with spring bars. Any tool small enough to get into the holes on the side of the clasp should work to compress the bar on the micro-adustment side.

Screwdriver is a 1.2mm wide flat head. I personally prefer using clear nail polish to mild strength Loctite. But either way, use something on the threads of any screws you remove, when you re-install them.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I have the following for sizing all manner of bracelets and changing all sorts of watch affixing devices and getting into case backs with screws:

Bergeon 6767-F
Bergeon 6767-S
Bergeon 6744-P
Wiha 75801 System 4 handle and 5 Philips (000 - 2) and 7 flathead (0.2x0.8 - 0.8x4.0) bits
Loctite 222 (purple low strength)
Small hammer
I also have a couple of those kind of cheap pin pushing things

I've been able to size everything and anything without mangling anything up too bad. Can confirm a 0.25x1.2 bit works perfectly on the NTH bracelets.


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## whatisk (Mar 5, 2020)

docvail said:


> Can you tell me which page mentions a ratcheting clasp? There was one on the original v.1 Tropics, but not the current v.2 versions.
> 
> The clasp is attached to the bracelet with spring bars. Any tool small enough to get into the holes on the side of the clasp should work to compress the bar on the micro-adustment side.
> 
> Screwdriver is a 1.2mm wide flat head. I personally prefer using clear nail polish to mild strength Loctite. But either way, use something on the threads of any screws you remove, when you re-install them.


Sure. It was this page at the bottom where it mentions the specs: Our Story Tropics

Thanks for the tip re nail polish. I'll keep it in mind should I ever adjust the band myself. Hoping where I take it will do something like that but guess there are no guarantees.



josiahg52 said:


> I have the following for sizing all manner of bracelets and changing all sorts of watch affixing devices and getting into case backs with screws:
> 
> Bergeon 6767-F
> Bergeon 6767-S
> ...


Cheers for the tips on tools. I'll have a look around and get a couple of things. The main thing at the moment will be something to make spring bars and changing the bands easier (hopefully).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

whatisk said:


> Sure. It was this page at the bottom where it mentions the specs: Our Story Tropics


Ugh. Those are the old specs. My web developers must have grabbed them from one of the v.1 product pages. Thanks for the heads-up.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Alright, so...about them DLC Scorpenes...
> 
> Mconlonx emailed me to grab one before they hit the website, which means we have one left, a no-date....
> 
> True one-of-a-kind here, folks.


Super psyched to be getting a 1 of 2 DLC Scorpene, and 1 of 1 with date. Also asked for it to be assembled with the Catalina bezel insert. So it will be a unique release NTH. This is the kind of thing where you hear about it here, and jump at the opportunity, knowing you'll regret it, if you don't... I was even a bit surprised they weren't already spoken for.

Anyway, thanks, Doc, for making these available.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)




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## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


>


Ladies & Gents, the new Sub colorway, Ice Cold.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I could use some help/feedback from anyone who feels like giving it...

Go to the NTH site. Find your way to the Nearly New watches section, and into any of those product pages.

Now, imagine you bought one of those watches. 

Don't read my next post until you do that. Go do that. Then come back and read my next post.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Okay, so...you just bought an imaginary "Nearly New" watch. Now, answer me this...

1. Do you know you bought a watch that isn't NEW? Like, is there any possible way you might have thought you were buying a NEW watch, rather than a USED watch?

2. Did you happen to notice the text, on either the nearly new section page, or the product page, which mentions the "Try it Before You Buy It Program"? If you weren't already familiar with it, by any chance did you happen to click the link to read the terms of the program?

3. If you read those terms (or thought you already knew how the program works, and therefore didn't), tell me how it works. Can the watches be returned for refund? For how long? How much is the refund for? Any hidden "catches" that you might want to know before going through checkout?


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

1. To me, the description is quite clear about the nearly new and not “new” status of the watch. I even read through the description and saw several times that the watch had been worn, inspected, and was basically certified pre-owned.

2. I saw mention of the try before you buy program but since I know what I’m getting with a 40mm NTH sub, I didn’t bother reading.

3. No idea how the program works.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We've been doing the "Nearly New / Try it Before you Buy It" thing since April of last year, a little more than 16 months. Sold a few dozen nearly new watches, almost all of which, the buyers kept, instead of returning them. There were a handful of returns, though.

Until last week, there didn't seem to be any confusion about how this program works. All of a sudden, I'm dealing with some folks who appear to be very confused, and I'm just wondering if there's something in the presentation of the information, or the wording, etc, which is causing confusion, and we somehow overlooked it all this time.


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## dbp512 (Jun 17, 2021)

I think based on the description it's pretty clear the piece isn't new. I'm wondering if people might not be reading the text and just skimming the page when they accidently select a nearly new watch. Or maybe they think "nearly new" means the model isn't the newest release anymore?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> 1. To me, the description is quite clear about the nearly new and not "new" status of the watch. I even read through the description and saw several times that the watch had been worn, inspected, and was basically certified pre-owned.
> 
> 2. I saw mention of the try before you buy program but since I know what I'm getting with a 40mm NTH sub, I didn't bother reading.
> 
> 3. No idea how the program works.


Okay, so...imagining you bought the watch, then wanted to return it. Would you be angry (at us, if not yourself) to learn that the refund would be net 10%, and not include the original shipping costs (which we never refund anyway, new or nearly new)?

So, if you paid $607.50, plus $20 shipping, and returned it within 30 days, your refund would be $546.75. We don't return the shipping costs because we paid to ship the watch to you in the first place. So it's just a refund of 90% of the purchase price of the watch.

Among a handful of "situations", one customer clearly didn't read the terms before making his purchase, or returning the watch for a refund.

Although the Nearly New section watches are "used", the intent isn't really to sell used watches, though I'm happy enough if people want to keep them. The intent is to give people the opportunity to "test-drive" an NTH for up to 60 days, and still be able to return it for a partial refund, or receive a full refund if they purchase a new watch.

The watches are priced at a slight discount to full retail, which is higher than the typical used market listing, and we deduct 10% from the refund every 30 days, but the higher-than-used-market-price and net 10%-20% refunds are on account of their condition, the inspection and regulation we do, the value of being able to return a used watch, the risk we bear in running the program, and the cost involved with re-stocking returned items.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> Okay, so...imagining you bought the watch, then wanted to return it. Would you be angry (at us, if not yourself) to learn that the refund would be net 10%, and not include the original shipping costs (which we never refund anyway, new or nearly new)?
> 
> So, if you paid $607.50, plus $20 shipping, and returned it within 30 days, your refund would be $546.75. We don't return the shipping costs because we paid to ship the watch to you in the first place. So it's just a refund of 90% of the purchase price of the watch.
> 
> ...


I have bought items in the past believing that they could be returned only to find out that my own inability to read meant I was stuck with something that didn't fit. I've also eaten "restocking" fees from vendors in the past so personally I wouldn't be angry at all with you. I'd be frustrated with myself for failing to pay attention.

Sounds like you've just been lucky over the last while with customers who aren't jackwagons&#8230;. Now the luck has run out. No matter how you word the terms, there will always be someone who doesn't read, and blames you for not doing whatever convoluted solution they dreamed up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dbp512 said:


> I think based on the description it's pretty clear the piece isn't new. I'm wondering if people might not be reading the text and just skimming the page when they accidently select a nearly new watch. Or maybe they think "nearly new" means the model isn't the newest release anymore?


It's not just in the product description. It's in the product name / title. They'd see it at the top of the product page, and in their cart, on the way to checkout.

Plus, those watches aren't included in any of the in-stock / new product sections. They're separated in their own section, such that someone would only be able to find them one of two ways - 1, searching the site for a specific model (which might mean they didn't realize it wasn't new), or, 2, using the site's navigation to find their way to that section.

Conceivably, they might have gotten there by way of a link in our email newsletter, but that would only be if we were promoting the program in that email.

There's almost zero chance of someone looking to buy a new watch accidentally finding the nearly new section, if they were browsing all the new watches.

My point being - how does someone miss that? How do they not realize they're NOT buying a new watch?

If someone realizes the watch isn't new, wouldn't that slow someone down, at all, and raise questions? I would think so. How many brands sell their own watches, used, on their website? Other than Chris Ward, I can't think of any. Wouldn't most customers naturally wonder what the deal is, and pause long enough to read some, before proceeding through checkout?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Okay, so...you just bought an imaginary "Nearly New" watch. Now, answer me this...
> 
> 1. Do you know you bought a watch that isn't NEW? Like, is there any possible way you might have thought you were buying a NEW watch, rather than a USED watch?
> 
> ...


1. Nope. Nearly new is not new and anyone who reads any of the text should know that. Either by scrolling down from the landing page or clicking through to see the available models and reading the header.

2. Did notice it, especially on the sale models page where it is actually highlighted in blue with a link to the terms. ...which I clicked through, because I was not aware of the terms.

3. Watches returnable for refund less shipping for 60 days, and less 10% of sale price within the first 30 days, less 20% within the next thirty days. Must be in same or similar condition when returned - if not, value determined by NTH or customer can keep it. I think the only "catch" I'd want to know about is any obvious defects - say, "small scratch in polished case chamfer around 5" or such, so that if I return, it can't be claimed against me - like when you rent a car, you do a walkaround to note any existing damage. Also, I guess I didn't come away with a clear understanding about how the warranty coverage works.


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Looks like everything is explained to the T, but you know a lot of people gloss over the information and click the buy button. How can they argue with what's written in black & white? Some people are just ignorant fools, that's how. Not much you can do to change that!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I have bought items in the past believing that they could be returned only to find out that my own inability to read meant I was stuck with something that didn't fit. I've also eaten "restocking" fees from vendors in the past so personally I wouldn't be angry at all with you. I'd be frustrated with myself for failing to pay attention.
> 
> Sounds like you've just been lucky over the last while with customers who aren't jackwagons&#8230;. Now the luck has run out. No matter how you word the terms, there will always be someone who doesn't read, and blames you for not doing whatever convoluted solution they dreamed up.


You may be right. I've spent a lot of energy trying to "fix stupid" and idiot-proof things, but I know there's no such thing as idiot-proof.

I had one guy who appeared to be seriously pissed at us, because he didn't read the terms, or if he did, he either forgot about them, or expected us to automatically make some exception, for reasons I can't really fathom.

I just had another one returned, but without any prior communication, which is strange, and sets off all my internal alarm whistles. Just a watch randomly showing up in the mail, without any information included with it. The crazy thing - we allow returns for up to 60 days from the purchase date. He shipped it on the 61st day.

I'm not trying to be a dlck. I'm willing to accept the return, but the refund is going to be net 20%, and net of shipping costs. The guy's going to be getting back almost $150 less than he paid for it. If he balks, it'll cost him another $20 for us to re-ship it back to him.

Meanwhile, the watch is MINT. Dan looked it over, put it on the timegrapher, etc. It's running great, and there's not a mark on it.

I'm anticipating him being irate when he reads the email we just sent him, basically asking what he wants to do here, because we're baffled.

I get that we allow up to 60 days for the returns, but seriously, who needs 60 days to know if they like a watch enough to keep it, and who sends one back, with no prior message or explanation, if they know they're going to eat 20% of the price, plus shipping?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Do you put a notice that when placing your order you agree to the said terms of the nearly new purchase program? This way most would see this hyperlink and be interested to see which agreeing to when buying this. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

The terms seemed pretty straight forward to me, I just read through all of them on the Nearly New page.. seemes pretty simple to me, and was very obvious that its a used watch at a pro-rated refund term. Some people are just stuck on stupid, or think that they are better than the rest of us and the world owes them something. Best of luck with the fools my brother!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random quoting of myself without meaning to...

Gets you a random pic from my hard-drive...


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## dbp512 (Jun 17, 2021)

docvail said:


> My point being - how does someone miss that? How do they not realize they're NOT buying a new watch?
> 
> If someone realizes the watch isn't new, wouldn't that slow someone down, at all, and raise questions? I would think so. How many brands sell their own watches, used, on their website? Other than Chris Ward, I can't think of any. Wouldn't most customers naturally wonder what the deal is, and pause long enough to read some, before proceeding through checkout?


Never underestimate people's ability to run on autopilot. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't be surprised by these recent customers (I'd be surprised it took so long to start seeing them). I don't think there's anything you could do to completely eliminate situations like this. I'm looking at the checkout page with a NN watch and it very clearly states as such, because like you mentioned, it's in the product's title too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Do you put a notice that when placing your order you agree to the said terms of the nearly new purchase program? This way most would see this hyperlink and be interested to see which agreeing to when buying this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Our old, old website allowed us to customize the checkout page, which enabled us to force people to click a box saying they red the terms, etc. The new site doesn't have that built in.

However, after some of the recent shenanigans, I found a plug-in app, which I think will let us add a pop-up bar / message with some products. So, the way it should work, as soon as you add the product to your cart, the pop-up message appears, requesting you read the terms, or agree to them, whatever.

Regardless - maybe everyone just assumes everything they buy is returnable, without limitations? Does no one ever bother to read the store's return / refund policies before checking out?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

1. The watches are clearly not new. The description at the landing page even describes what makes these watches nearly new.

2. Saw the Try It program link and read about it.

3. Read it some time ago and determined I wouldn't be taking part in it. I was irked about the 10/20% restocking fee on an already discounted " not new" product and also came to the conclusion that at the end of the day, the program was ripe for disagreements about the returned watch condition. It would additionally cost me to ship it back. If I didn't want the watch at the end of the day, I would sell it privately. The "Try It" program did not factor into my decision to buy a nearly new watch. In fact, I had forgotten about it entirely when it came time to order and even to now until mentioned.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I think the only "catch" I'd want to know about is any obvious defects - say, "small scratch in polished case chamfer around 5" or such, so that if I return, it can't be claimed against me - like when you rent a car, you do a walkaround to note any existing damage. Also, I guess I didn't come away with a clear understanding about how the warranty coverage works.


Re - existing marks...

We had one. Guy said the condition wasn't quite as good as he was expecting, due to some hairline scratches on the clasp. He contacted us right away, the day the watch was delivered. We let him return it, for a full refund, including the shipping cost.

My rationale - the guy could have filed a dispute with his credit card company or PayPal, saying the product wasn't as described, so it doesn't make sense for me to even think about whether or not to argue about it. The guy wasn't a jerk about it, and it was "our bad", so we gave him back all his money, because I'm cool like that.

We replaced the clasp, and put it right back up for sale. The next guy bought it, and kept it, with no complaints.

Re - the warranty...(just guessing what you mean)...

I forgot to mention that in my explanation of why the watches are priced as they are / why we deduct 10%-20% from the refunds.

My thinking - we warranty a new watch for 2 years from the date of delivery (or 10 days from the ship date, if we don't know when it was delivered), and guarantee the movement for 6 years from the date of production. Both are transferrable, without limitation, international, etc.

So, the 6 year guarantee isn't really affected, since it's based on the production date. For the warranty, I don't always know the delivery date, and I just went and looked, and didn't see any mention of it on the product pages or anywhere else, so...

All the nearly new watches are just that - nearly new. They've barely been worn, much less abused. When I buy them back, I have them shipped to Dan, not to me. He goes over them with a fine-tooth comb, and will re-lubricate any that need it, re-regulate them, whatever.

In that scenario, why wouldn't I agree to fix a broken watch if we sold it, twice, and Dan checked it out, twice? Even when I know EXACTLY when a watch was delivered, we've helped sort out problems after a warranty expired, in some scenarios, because good will, and it's sort of built into the prices.

No one's asked how long the warranty is on the nearly new watches, but I'd say two years, because I'm cool like that.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> 1. Do you know you bought a watch that isn't NEW?


Yes, this is absolutely clear.



docvail said:


> 2. Did you happen to notice the text, on either the nearly new section page, or the product page, which mentions the "Try it Before You Buy It Program"? If you weren't already familiar with it, by any chance did you happen to click the link to read the terms of the program?


Yes and yes.



docvail said:


> 3. If you read those terms (or thought you already knew how the program works, and therefore didn't), tell me how it works.


I could do that, sure.

But I will say that I found it a bit "bait and switch"y. To me, "try before you buy" implies "try FOR NO COST before you buy", so I groaned when I saw the 10% restocking fee. Postage, sure, I would not expect that to be refunded.

And I am the type that reads all the fine print five times over. I can easily see someone just assuming that "try before you buy" implies no restocking fee. But it's still on them for not reading the details first.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

BTW, "nearly new" on the NTH website translates in my head to "as close to a discout as Doc ever going to offer." I appreciate the "try before you buy" service, and probably would have gone that route on my first NTH Sub, but it would not have gone back...


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

My data points...

The site is pretty clear that these are not new watches. You'd have to be careless to miss it.

I did notice the watches were on the try before you buy program.

I was mildly curious, but I didn't bother to read the terms. Based on word of mouth I have a decent level of confidence in buying from you. If I'd actually stocked the cart and went to purchase I might have looked closer.

If I'd received the watch and it had a problem, and I hadn't read the terms, I'd be miffed about paying 10%, but mostly at myself for not having read the terms fully before purchasing. It's not like anything about the terms is hidden or anything. The link is clearly shown TWICE at the top of the page. I'm the bonehead who didn't click and read it.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I appreciate everyone's help with this exercise, and everyone's feedback. Truly. It's all valuable.



josiahg52 said:


> ...Read it some time ago and determined I wouldn't be taking part in it. I was irked about the 10/20% restocking fee on an already discounted " not new" product and also came to the conclusion that at the end of the day, the program was ripe for disagreements about the returned watch condition. It would additionally cost me to ship it back. If I didn't want the watch at the end of the day, I would sell it privately. The "Try It" program did not factor into my decision to buy a nearly new watch. In fact, I had forgotten about it entirely when it came time to order and even to now until mentioned.





Avo said:


> But I will say that I found it a bit "bait and switch"y. To me, "try before you buy" implies "try FOR NO COST before you buy", so I groaned when I saw the 10% restocking fee. Postage, sure, I would not expect that to be refunded.


So...this isn't meant as an argument with either of you gents, nor do I want to sound defensive. I respect both your views, and appreciate you sharing them. That said, I feel compelled to offer some insight into the thinking that went into the program.

And...sorry for the WOT...

Before the program, I not only sold watches new, from my website, I'd occasionally sell used watches from my own collection. But the difference between me and anyone else selling a used watch is that these were watches I made.

Even though most of my watches don't get worn often enough to suffer any real abuse, on occasion, there'd be some minor issue that would pop up, sometimes months after the sale, and the buyer would contact me - expecting me to sort it out for them.

Now, if you sold a Seiko, or even an NTH to some other guy on the forum, and he had some complaint with it 3 months later, you likely wouldn't entertain any discussion about you handling the repair for the buyer. But since I own the brand, I could see the obvious consequences if I did that - I'd get lambasted online.

As a result, I felt, I think legitimately, that any NTH watch I sold - used - deserved to be sold at a premium to the others on the used market, because the buyer would be getting it from the brand owner, who was well-known on the forums, had a strong incentive to please the buyer, was already offering some assurances, and ultimately, would likely bear the cost of any issues that may arise after the sale.

And yet, the market didn't always see it that way. Even though I usually priced for a fast sale, I'd still get lowball offers, people would try to haggle, etc. It actually made me dread selling watches used.

So, that experience - the knowing that even if someone was buying a used watch, they'd expect me to make additional accommodations in some scenarios, was part of the reasoning behind pricing the nearly new watches higher than typical used market prices, and deducting something from any refunds.

Because, again, if someone wanted you to take back a used Seiko, or NTH, a month or two after you sold it to them, surely you wouldn't give them a full refund, right?

Meanwhile, for the last 9 years, I've been reading people on the forums and elsewhere complain about not being able to check out a watch in person before buying it. So I was looking for a way to address that particular complaint.

The point was never to sell USED watches, per se. My focus was and is on selling NEW watches, but to do something a little different from the usual ecommerce model, in order to address that one specific complaint - being able to see the watch before you commit to buying it.

And, for the last 7 years, I've made a habit of sending watches out to the Fan-Men in my inner-circle, the "Whirled Tour", as I call it.

I started to think, "maybe we could expand the Whirled Tour concept, but open it up to anyone." That obviously has some challenges. I trust Dave or Andrew not to abuse my watch, and to send my watch back to me when they're done. How do I know everyone else would do that?

Also, I saw complaints about used market / resale values on micros. I looked at the used market, and noted how often the sellers do a really $hltty job of sales. Lousy pictures. Omitted details. Shoddy communication. Unrealistic expectations, etc.

No wonder these guys were suffering on resale. It irked me that I and other brand owners were being blamed for their ineptitude as sellers.

Plus - I'd see guys selling watches they just got, literally within the last month or two, and maybe wore twice, for 20% less on the used market.

Lastly - I wasn't able to snag one of the Barracuda Vintage Black from the original release, or the release after, because of demand. I ended up buying one from @uvalaw2005 , for $500. It was a $675 watch, new, still in BNIB condition.

I thought, "this is ridiculous. He should have been able to sell it for $600. They're sold out. They're a good value at full price. Why does the market think this is a $500 watch, when it's BNIB?" For the next year, every time I wore that watch, I thought about it.

I saw opportunities. It's ridiculous that private sellers accept the depreciation they do, on otherwise "new" watches. I saw that I was in a position to not only solve a lot of problems for both buyers and sellers in the used market, but also solve a problem in the new market, and help my business at the same time.

So, among the risks / challenges I saw, and discussed with others, were these:

1. How do we let people "test drive" the watches, without losing a bunch of valuable product, getting back badly damaged product, or spending a lot of our time managing the logistics, with no profit in it (because, after all, a business needs profits)?

2. If we re-buy our own watches, used, how do we manage the risk that the sellers might be misrepresenting the watch's condition, or shipping to us without insurance, or scamming us, or it arrives missing bracelet links, or with a mangled box, etc?

3. How do we manage the costs of "proofing" incoming watches for resale? I'm talking about replacing the box if necessary, supplying missing links, or replacing parts - all of those come from our inventory. How about the costs of Dan's time, inspecting each piece, regulating and lubricating if necessary?

4. How do we pay for my time, as the guy scouring the used market looking for the best-condition watches at prices low enough we can make a profit on the resale, and pay for all of the above?

5. How do we get customers to feel like they're not just buying a "used" watch, like buying a used car, but instead feel something analogous to buying a CERTIFIED used car, where there's an understanding about what that means, and what it costs?

6. Most important of all - how do we avoid a situation where guys are just ordering watches, with no intention of keeping them, or buying any other watch, and sending them back for a full refund, essentially "renting" them for a while, but without paying any rent?

I discussed the program with John Keil, my marketing guy, one of his employees, my wife, some of the Fan-Men, and a few others, to bounce ideas off them, and get their feedback, to include the way we'd price the watches, and handle refunds.

The way we see it, the Nearly New watches are like Certified Used Cars. They're priced higher, and the refunds are net 10%-20%, on account of the value we're adding into the equation, but also as a way to address some of the challenges we foresaw in running the program.

We cherry-pick the best of the used market. We carefully inspect every watch that comes in, to make sure it's tip-top.

We've replaced cases, crowns, bezels, bracelets, movements, whatever was needed to make sure the Nearly New watches didn't disappoint. We've replaced boxes, and the little extras included with the watch. But for the lack of plastic covers, and maybe a hairline scratch on the back of a lug, or the side of a link, you'd never know they weren't new.

We also allow returns for refunds (albeit, net 10%-20%), something few if any sellers in the used market do. And as far as I'm aware, not even Chris Ward does this with their used watches (though I may be wrong). With most "discounted from new" watch sales, there are no returns for refunds.

When you buy a Nearly New watch from NTH, you don't need to be concerned that we might be misrepresenting its condition. No worrying about how much warranty is left. No fretting over the condition of the box. No missing links. No accuracy issues. etc. We stand behind the watch, the same way we do if the watch was NEW.

But, if you buy a NEW watch, and wear it, you can't return it. There is no refund. We can't re-sell it as new, after you've altered the condition. What do we do with a Nearly New watch, that wasn't new when we shipped it?

There has to be some "cost" to the program for peeps who get the watches, then send them back for a refund. We're running a business, not a school library.

How often does someone buy a used watch, get it, wear it, then re-sell it, but NOT take some sort of loss? Is there really any difference here? You're effectively buying a used watch from us, then selling it back to us, for 10%-20% less, within the next 30-60 days.

So, the 10%-20% is sort of like the "rent". It keeps people honest. If we didn't net something from the refund, we'd have people "borrowing" the watches, rather than "buying" or "renting" the watches. Don't forget - we refund 100% when someone is just sending back the used watch because they want to buy a new one.

Generally, the feedback (until last week) has been unanimously positive. Everyone liked the watches they got (and that the vast majority kept), and were happy to get them for less than the new price. Until last week, no one complained about the value proposition of the program.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> If I'd received the watch and it had a problem, and I hadn't read the terms, I'd be miffed about paying 10%, but mostly at myself for not having read the terms fully before purchasing. It's not like anything about the terms is hidden or anything. The link is clearly shown TWICE at the top of the page. I'm the bonehead who didn't click and read it.


If by "had a problem", you mean something like the condition wasn't as described, or there was some mechanical issue, we'd address that outside of netting something from your refund.

If someone wasn't happy with the condition on delivery, I think it's fair to expect that to be brought up on delivery, not some time later, when it would be impossible to determine if the condition suffered while it was with the customer.

If there was some mechanical issue, we'd just fix it. If someone insisted we should take it back, and issue a full refund, because of the mechanical issue, we'd probably do it, just to be done with it.

The only reasons people would return a Nearly New watch would be they didn't like it, or they wanted to "trade it in" for a new one.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Is this going to be another one of those NTH soap operas?


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Mr_Finer_Things said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any updates on these?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Is this going to be another one of those NTH soap operas?


I doubt it.

Although I appear to still be catnip for crazy, it's been quite some time since someone tried to publicly shame me.

Chalk that up to me / us getting better at spotting trouble before it happens, and perhaps the jackwagons seeing that I simply have no shame.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Any updates on these?


Dude, we LITERALLY (not figuratively) sent out the email blast TODAY.

Are you signed up for the email newsletter? If not, why not? There's ZERO chance of anyone subscribed to it missing any updates, on anything.

Do y'all want Chris to drop dead of a sudden, stress-induced heart attack? Because asking me for updates, on demand, rather than just getting the email or following us on social media, is bound to be a contributing factor.

It is inconceivable that there would be anything anyone would want to know about what NTH is doing, and that anyone who wanted to know it, wouldn't hear about it, if they were subscribed to our email newsletter, or following us on social media.

No, there are no updates. Trust me, if I had news to share, I'd share it.


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Dude, we LITERALLY (not figuratively) sent out the email blast TODAY.
> 
> Are you signed up for the email newsletter? If not, why not? There's ZERO chance of anyone subscribed to it missing any updates, on anything.
> 
> ...


Cool.


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## fissiontofallout (Aug 3, 2018)

Re: Nearly new

It is obvious that they are not new watches.

I saw the links to the terms, but in my "pretend run" before reading your questions, I didn't read them before adding a watch to the cart.

After reading your questions, I went back and read the terms, and they are clear enough, but the "can be returned for a refund" text before the link might lead someone to believe that they could return for a _full_ refund in the as-received condition, which is apparently not actually the case. Maybe changing that to "can be returned for a partial refund" right there on the product page would make that clearer earlier


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Cool.


Sorry for the rant.

My dog woke me up at 4am, after only 3 hours of sleep. I wasn't able to get back to sleep, and I've just been getting my butt kicked all week. I'm not at my best today. I'm exhausted, nursing a headache, and I think my wife is pissed at me (pick a reason).

Requests for on-demand updates are a personal pet peeve, going all the way back to the pre-orders we did when I started the brand. It's frustrating, when we put the effort into making sure everyone knows what were up to, what's happening, and when, only to have peeps ask "what's going on?", as if we haven't been moving heaven and earth to remove all uncertainty.

I'd much prefer people just subscribe to the email newsletter, and / or follow us on social media, and trust me to communicate in an effective, yet efficient way. There really is no way anyone can be "out of the loop' if they're getting the newsletter or following us on social media.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fissiontofallout said:


> Re: Nearly new
> 
> It is obvious that they are not new watches.
> 
> ...


Just playing Devil's advocate here.

This is the entire text, from the product page (the section page has identical wording in the second paragraph):

_"This watch has been worn, but is still in excellent, near mint or better condition, and is eligible for our *Try It Before You Buy It* program. This watch has been thoroughly inspected, and if need be, regulated. _​​_Each watch here is covered under our 6-year movement guarantee, and can be returned for a refund, subject to the terms of the Try It Before You Buy It Program. *Please see our FAQ's for program terms before making your purchase*."_​
So...thinking through this, as logically as I can...

If someone simply isn't reading ANY of that, then they'd miss ALL of it, including "can be returned for a refund." In that scenario, inserting "partial" before "refund" wouldn't seem likely to change the outcome.

But, if they read any of that, and got as far as "can be returned for a refund,' surely they saw that the sentence continues, "subject to the terms...".

I guess my thinking is, if they're not reading any of it, then it doesn't matter how we word it. But if someone IS reading, and gets that far, then it seems pretty clear that refunds aren't unconditional, and that should lead someone to click that link, and read those terms, no?

I'm not saying it isn't a valid suggestion. I plan to think about it, and may add it. I'm just saying, I think no matter what we say or how we say it, we'll have some people who overlook it, or read it and forget, or claim they never saw it, or simply don't agree with it, and want to argue about it after the purchase, when they want to return for refund.

I'm mostly happy to know most people agree there's little to no likelihood someone would think they were buying a new watch, and that we haven't been deliberately or inadvertently deceptive regarding the program terms.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Do y'all want Chris to drop dead of a sudden, stress-induced heart attack? Because asking me for updates, on demand, rather than just getting the email or following us on social media, is bound to be a contributing factor.


No... but...
What about an update on the eccentric 70s NTH non-diver?












docvail said:


> Sorry for the rant.
> 
> My dog woke me up at 4am, after only 3 hours of sleep. I wasn't able to get back to sleep, and I've just been getting my butt kicked all week. I'm not at my best today. I'm exhausted, nursing a headache, and I think my wife is pissed at me (pick a reason).


Ok ok....
Im_ kinda_ sorry I asked.

But I did tell you I was gonna.

Edit: I did see the email blast. Congrats on a new vendor in LIW.


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> Go to the NTH site. Find your way to the Nearly New watches section, and into any of those product pages.
> 
> Now, imagine you bought one of those watches.


Well THAT certainly took a turn...longtime reader here but hadn't pulled the trigger on joining the club. Went to the Nearly New section as directed, picked a product page and not only imagined buying one; I ordered the Bahia listed there! Finally in, after all this time...pix when it arrives.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bogray57 said:


> Well THAT certainly took a turn...longtime reader here but hadn't pulled the trigger on joining the club. Went to the Nearly New section as directed, picked a product page and not only imagined buying one; I ordered the Bahia listed there! Finally in, after all this time...pix when it arrives.


Gotcha!

I literally (wait for it...not figuratively) just created your shipping label.

The Bahia will ship from our workshop. Not sure if we have any straps there. If not, we'll ship it separately from our warehouse.

Thanks for your business.

Welcome to the madness, and my method to it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Many people never read the details. They assume they know and fill in the blanks based on preference. This could lead some to assume that "nearly new" means things like "display pieces" or "watches we sent to a blogger for pics"

To make it worse, the "it is never my fault" mentality seems to be steadily getting worse. Accountability for things such as "not reading a damn thing" seems to be dying. Yes, this drives me crazy.

It has nothing to do with your website. It has everything to do with human nature and pure laziness.


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

docvail said:


> We've been doing the "Nearly New / Try it Before you Buy It" thing since April of last year, a little more than 16 months. Sold a few dozen nearly new watches, almost all of which, the buyers kept, instead of returning them. There were a handful of returns, though.
> 
> Until last week, there didn't seem to be any confusion about how this program works. All of a sudden, I'm dealing with some folks who appear to be very confused, and I'm just wondering if there's something in the presentation of the information, or the wording, etc, which is causing confusion, and we somehow overlooked it all this time.


Congrats! You're being noticed if odd balls who can't read are finding your site.

I had no trouble comprehending the "try it before you buy it" notice but to cover your bases from the real idiots out there, you should have a "nearly new" overlay diagonally on all the images.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

What doc says to customers:


docvail said:


> _"This watch has been worn, but is still in excellent, near mint or better condition, and is eligible for our *Try It Before You Buy It* program. This watch has been thoroughly inspected, and if need be, regulated. _​​_Each watch here is covered under our 6-year movement guarantee, and can be returned for a refund, subject to the terms of the Try It Before You Buy It Program. *Please see our FAQ's for program terms before making your purchase*."_​


What they hear:


> _blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah *Try It Before You Buy It* blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> 
> blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Try It Before You Buy It. *Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah **blah blah*_


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Sorry for the rant.
> 
> My dog woke me up at 4am, after only 3 hours of sleep. I wasn't able to get back to sleep, and I've just been getting my butt kicked all week. I'm not at my best today. I'm exhausted, nursing a headache, and I think my wife is pissed at me (pick a reason).
> 
> ...


No worries. I don't do social media and I hate being on e-mail lists, but maybe I'll make this exception.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> No worries. I don't do social media and I hate being on e-mail lists, but maybe I'll make this exception.


I am the same way, but the emails from Doc and crew are usually not only informative....they are often entertaining


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> If by "had a problem", you mean something like the condition wasn't as described, or there was some mechanical issue, we'd address that outside of netting something from your refund.
> 
> If someone wasn't happy with the condition on delivery, I think it's fair to expect that to be brought up on delivery, not some time later, when it would be impossible to determine if the condition suffered while it was with the customer.
> 
> ...


In that case then yeah... I see no problem with keeping 10% if I decide to return it "just because."

I appreciate that you'd deal with those particular situations differently depending on circumstances. It's one of the things I like about dealing with a small business where we actually talk to each other like grown ups.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I do look at return policies for things like shoes, boots, or clothes especially. I despise purchasing those online. I want a robust policy that allows an option for an easy return.

But a watch is not a shirt. You might accept an odd hanging thread on a cheap t-shirt. Most people will not accept a single mark on their watch, nearly new or not. I get the restocking charge covers real, substantiated, and likely actual (reasonable, expected) costs for checking that a watch is suitable for resale. It also protects the business. I just don't like paying for it, or prefer not to. 

My reason for foregoing the Try It program return is purely mathematical. I believe I could sell the Thresher for $550 to $600 and have the buyer cover shipping. This would leave me a little less out of pocket. Not now, of course, as the watch is used. Incidentally, it's been greater than 60 days since my original purchase. Selling privately carries it's own risks and headaches. If I was buying one new at full price, I'd feel differently. 

In the end though, I didn't feel like it was much of a risk purchasing even a Nearly New watch from NTH. I trusted the company and liked what I saw of the watch. It was clear what a Nearly New watch was. And what it wasn't. I also felt if there was a problem, it could probably be worked out.


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

docvail said:


> Okay, so...you just bought an imaginary "Nearly New" watch. Now, answer me this...
> 
> 1. Do you know you bought a watch that isn't NEW? Like, is there any possible way you might have thought you were buying a NEW watch, rather than a USED watch?
> 
> ...


Well I'm in Australia, so I'm sad about the whole thing (I like the look of the blue Odin) but...
1: It is obvious the watches are not new
2: I have read it, before realising it is USA only (but read it again after answering q3)
3: Watches can be returned for credit at NTH, credit is transferable to retailers on new NTH watches. (OK, wrong - refund does not require purchase but there's a sliding deduction, full refund if there's a purchase). 30 days (OK - 60). Full value unless there has been damage (more or less).
I understand why it is USA only. Doesn't stop me wishing otherwise.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Any idea of the arrival time of the V2 40mm subs?


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

OK, full tilt devil's advocate - someone tired might cherry pick the _new_ out of "Nearly New" and then blip through the details. To be fireproof you could refer to the watches as "Used: Nearly New".

Do I think the hypothetical idiot deserves extra help? No. Is the somewhat ugly "Used: Nearly New" necessary? No-ooo... but maybe it would help? A couple of careless buyers cropping-up after a year might just be a fluke. It's not a lot of data.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

davek35 said:


> Any idea of the arrival time of the V2 40mm subs?


Back one page, post #7627


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

davek35 said:


> Any idea of the arrival time of the V2 40mm subs?


Man I hope the dog didn't wake him up early again....


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I love this thread. This is the only thing I read anymore regarding watches. But it’s worth it.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)




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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Lastly - I wasn't able to snag one of the Barracuda Vintage Black from the original release, or the release after, because of demand. I ended up buying one from @uvalaw2005 , for $500. It was a $675 watch, new, still in BNIB condition.
> 
> I thought, "this is ridiculous. He should have been able to sell it for $600. They're sold out. They're a good value at full price. Why does the market think this is a $500 watch, when it's BNIB?" For the next year, every time I wore that watch, I thought about it.


Despite your disbelief, they're generally $450-500 watches when used, even in near mint condition. I've bought 2 pristine odins for about $500. Sold a pristine skipjack for under $500 (that I bought new at full price). Sold my blue odin for $450. My photos are comprehensive and very detailed, I've sold on here for years, what more can I do to get the $ you want them to be worth? (I have often wondered if people might pay more for watches that DON'T have such good photos, but that's another discussion)

The fact that you got that BVB for $500 wasn't "cherry picking" anything. He was willing to sell it for that after it spent some days on the market... Which they always do unless they're a super limited model.

Frankly, it puzzles me that you'd go to these lengths to help the resale value of your brand when you've said so many times that you don't want more agg in your life. I mean, you're buying (and taking risk that a watch won't arrive), you've got the watchmaker involved, then selling again. What's your time worth?


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Got the email about the V2’s, saw the instagram post about the V2’s, haven’t been able to stop thinking about the V2’s. 

And even though I knew they were coming I just ordered another watch….. I’ll just explain to the wife that I’m buying two watches this summer, but it’s going to be ok because I’m “thinking” about selling one so net will only be one additional watch to the collection.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> View attachment 15959096


Copycat


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> Copycat
> View attachment 15959144


What? You have a red 2017 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk too?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Many people never read the details. They assume they know and fill in the blanks based on preference. This could lead some to assume that "nearly new" means things like "display pieces" or "watches we sent to a blogger for pics"
> 
> To make it worse, the "it is never my fault" mentality seems to be steadily getting worse. Accountability for things such as "not reading a damn thing" seems to be dying. Yes, this drives me crazy.
> 
> It has nothing to do with your website. It has everything to do with human nature and pure laziness.


In fact, some of the nearly new watches have been blogger or photo samples.

I guess you didn't read those details, huh?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> No worries. I don't do social media and I hate being on e-mail lists, but maybe I'll make this exception.


C'mon. Join the email list. We've got cookies!


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> C'mon. Join the email list. We've got cookies!


I would love a sugar cookie but I already have an account and had already opted OUT of the emails when I first signed up. Now there's no way to opt back IN as far as I can tell.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> In that case then yeah... I see no problem with keeping 10% if I decide to return it "just because."
> 
> I appreciate that you'd deal with those particular situations differently depending on circumstances. It's one of the things I like about dealing with a small business where we actually talk to each other like grown ups.


I dunno.

After sleeping on it (sweet, sweet, blessed sleep), and now reading your post, and thinking about the situation last week, maybe I need to rethink some of this.

The point of the 10% / 30 days deduction on refunds is to avoid having guys "borrow" and wear the watches for some length of time, then send them back for a full refund. It isn't meant to penalize someone for returning a watch under the usual / understandable circumstances.

The guy last week - he said he bought the watch without realizing his wife had bought him a watch, so he was returning the one he got. It seems he contacted us the same day it was delivered.

This seems like a good time to make an exception to policy, so I'm about to issue a refund for the 10% we held back.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Ok, for a change of direction here. Today I woke up and turned 47 years old.. and this past Saturday my oldest son turned 15.. this morning I realized how fast time flys by, and made me so thankful for my health (minus the aches and pains), my Family, and Beautiful kids and wife! my Job (that lets me have this crazy hobby), and you all, my NTH family! ive been on WUS for many years, and of all the threads on this site, this is my favorite, and the one I feel like im at home in. So thanks to you awesome NTH friends, and to you too Chris!
Birthday shot with my beauty Amphion Vintage Gilt. 🎉🎁🎈


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok, for a change of direction here. Today I woke up and turned 47 years old.. and this past Saturday my oldest son turned 15.. this morning I realized how fast time flys by, and made me so thankful for my health (minus the aches and pains), my Family, and Beautiful kids and wife! my Job (that lets me have this crazy hobby), and you all, my NTH family! ive been on WUS for many years, and of all the threads on this site, this is my favorite, and the one I feel like im at home in. So thanks to you awesome NTH friends, and to you too Chris!
> Birthday shot with my beauty Amphion Vintage Gilt.
> View attachment 15959219
> 
> ...


Happy birthday !

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> In fact, some of the nearly new watches have been blogger or photo samples.
> 
> I guess you didn't read those details, huh?
> 
> View attachment 15959163


I did actually  I was just responding to the conversation and my expectations of many modern consumers who fill in the blanks themselves. Some of those filled blanks may be accurate. Many will not


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok, for a change of direction here. Today I woke up and turned 47 years old.. and this past Saturday my oldest son turned 15.. this morning I realized how fast time flys by, and made me so thankful for my health (minus the aches and pains), my Family, and Beautiful kids and wife! my Job (that lets me have this crazy hobby), and you all, my NTH family! ive been on WUS for many years, and of all the threads on this site, this is my favorite, and the one I feel like im at home in. So thanks to you awesome NTH friends, and to you too Chris!
> Birthday shot with my beauty Amphion Vintage Gilt. 🎉🎁🎈
> View attachment 15959219
> 
> ...


Happy Birthday!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I do look at return policies for things like shoes, boots, or clothes especially. I despise purchasing those online. I want a robust policy that allows an option for an easy return.
> 
> But a watch is not a shirt. You might accept an odd hanging thread on a cheap t-shirt. Most people will not accept a single mark on their watch, nearly new or not. I get the restocking charge covers real, substantiated, and likely actual (reasonable, expected) costs for checking that a watch is suitable for resale. It also protects the business. I just don't like paying for it, or prefer not to.
> 
> ...


Agreed with most of that. And as it happens, I was running the numbers in my head the last day or two...

Assume you buy the watch new, for $700, own it for some brief time, then sell it used. It seems like the typical markdown is roughly 20% ($560). Maybe you list it for $600, and maybe you get that, but odds are you sell it for ~$500-$575.

Just to keep the math easy, let's keep it at 20%, and say you sell it for $560, for a $140 loss, not taking into account PayPal fees or who pays for shipping, and what that costs.

Now let's say the guy who buys it used for $560 owns it some brief time, then wants to sell it. Optimistically, he "just wants what he paid", and thus lists it for $560. But odds are he gets less, depending on various factors.

Let's say he gets $475, which seems like a reasonable assumption here (based on a quick scan of current listings). So he loses $85 (again, not accounting for selling fees or shipping costs).

The nearly new watches are 10% under full retail price. So the $700 watch is $630. If the customer returns it for a 90% refund, they only lose $63, not including shipping costs on the order, or the return shipping.

The customer returning the nearly new watch to us doesn't need to bother taking pics or posting a for sale listing. He doesn't have to deal with tire-kickers, endless questions, disappearing buyers, haggling, arguing over the condition, etc. He doesn't have to pay a fee to PayPal. He doesn't need to fear that the buyer may come back later to demand some partial refund for some reason.

He just accepts a 10% haircut and sends it back to us. Easy peasy. That 10% is fairly likely to be less than what he'd lose buying and selling on the used market. And if he's returning it with the intention of buying a new NTH, he won't even lose the 10%.

Maybe I'm viewing this through rose-colored glasses, because I'm running the business that profits from this, but when I look at the numbers, I think it's a square deal for customers who appreciate the ease, convenience, and peace of mind, compared to the used market.

In order for someone to do better buying and selling used, they'd have to be very adept and disciplined, or very lucky. No doubt some folks will do better navigating the used market, but our service provides an alternative for those who just can't be bothered, or would simply prefer a more pain-free experience.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ozludo said:


> Well I'm in Australia, so I'm sad about the whole thing (I like the look of the blue Odin) but...
> 1: It is obvious the watches are not new
> 2: I have read it, before realising it is USA only (but read it again after answering q3)
> 3: Watches can be returned for credit at NTH, credit is transferable to retailers on new NTH watches. (OK, wrong - refund does not require purchase but there's a sliding deduction, full refund if there's a purchase). 30 days (OK - 60). Full value unless there has been damage (more or less).
> I understand why it is USA only. Doesn't stop me wishing otherwise.


Sorry about that, sincerely. I tried like hell to figure a way to make the Nearly New watches available worldwide, but the high cost of shipping, and particularly import duties, just made it a non-starter.

If it helps - our retailer in New Zealand, Five:45, is willing to consider taking used watches (any brand / model) in trade against the purchase of new watches. If they have a new model you fancy, and you have something they may want, it can't hurt to make an inquiry with them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Any idea of the arrival time of the V2 40mm subs?


Did you get the email newsletter yesterday?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Man I hope the dog didn't wake him up early again....


He didn't. I told him he was an a$$hole at least eight times yesterday. I think he got the message, and decided it would be best to chill the fudge out this morning.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Despite your disbelief, they're generally $450-500 watches when used, even in near mint condition. I've bought 2 pristine odins for about $500. Sold a pristine skipjack for under $500 (that I bought new at full price). Sold my blue odin for $450. My photos are comprehensive and very detailed, I've sold on here for years, what more can I do to get the $ you want them to be worth? (I have often wondered if people might pay more for watches that DON'T have such good photos, but that's another discussion)
> 
> The fact that you got that BVB for $500 wasn't "cherry picking" anything. He was willing to sell it for that after it spent some days on the market... Which they always do unless they're a super limited model.
> 
> Frankly, it puzzles me that you'd go to these lengths to help the resale value of your brand when you've said so many times that you don't want more agg in your life. I mean, you're buying (and taking risk that a watch won't arrive), you've got the watchmaker involved, then selling again. What's your time worth?


So...

1. I'm well aware of used market values. My assessment is that the used market appears to run on "norms" which are a result of lazy / eager sellers, aggressively shrewd buyers, and social pressure created through online discussion.

It's unlike the used car market, or the housing market, which are mostly unaffected (or at least less affected) by public opinion. Instead, professionals - used car dealers, real estate agents and appraisers, insurance companies, lenders, etc - have more sway when it comes to setting prices. Those markets are much more efficient, and thus prices are more stable, and "fair".

Unlike used car dealers, who are unemotional - disciplined about buying low, selling high - and patient, used watch sellers are often emotional, in a rush to sell, and look it. With very few exceptions, it's always a buyer's market (unless someone has that "special" watch that everyone wants, a Seaforth or Spork, and prices are bid up to ridiculous levels).

The result is a market that unnecessarily skews towards under-valuing used watches. The fact that a used watch may sell for $400 or $450 doesn't change my assessment that the watch is actually worth more, and would sell for more, if the market was more efficient, and run by professionals.

The Nearly New section is just that - an alternative market, run by a professional.

2. In the case of the BVB I bought from UVA - at the time, they were sold out, and selling for more than $500. Not too long before or too long after (I forget which) some were selling for more than full retail.

UVA is (or was) a very active trader, and very good at turning a profit with his trades. And yet, even though he's a friend, for some reason, he seems to routinely under-value used NTH pieces, I suspect in order to sell them more quickly.

If memory serves, he had it listed for less than an hour - not days - when I bought it. When I saw it, I bought it instantly (I sent him the money by PayPal before I even confirmed it hadn't sold yet), because I instantly knew it was dramatically under-priced.

3. As I've said, the point of the program is to be an answer to "I wish I could see it in person before I buy it". Whether or not it helps support higher used market prices seems debatable, but if it does, which at least seems possible, that's just a bonus.

We do everything possible to manage risk. We've yet to have someone simply not send the watch (in which case, we'd file a dispute with PayPal, which we'd no doubt win), or have one lost on its way to us.

Since I typically arrange the shipping when I'm the buyer, I'd be in control of the process in the event one was lost, and thus I don't worry about the seller not doing his part in that scenario.

We've only had watches arrive in other-than-expected condition a handful of times, but we're prepared with replacement parts and in-house watchmaker to quickly fix any deficiencies. My cost on the parts, and Dan's time, is less than what other buyers would face in that situation.

My time investment has been manageable.

There's no time spent at all when the watch is a returning photo or blogger sample, or one from my own collection. It generally only takes me 1 or 2 messages with a seller to have a deal on a watch we're buying.

We've only occasionally gotten messages from customers before they bought a nearly new watch. And as of this moment, only 1 in 7 nearly new watches we've sold has been returned, usually with minimal back-and-forth communication about it, and zero fuss, until last week. And, in retrospect, I could have saved myself some fuss if I'd been more on-the-ball with that situation.

What's my time worth? What's Dan's? Are we being adequately compensated? Well...

We're making a fair profit on every nearly new sale, even if a watch is returned for refund. We've sold dozens in the last 16 months.

The program gives me an easy response when someone complains about not being able to see one before purchasing, which saves me time, and presumably might lead to more sales, assuming people are being sincere with that complaint.

It's another way NTH is differentiated from other brands, and another way we demonstrate that we fully stand behind the product, which would presumably raise the market perception of the brand, and thus lead to more sales, support our new pricing, etc.

It may help raise used market values (it certainly doesn't hurt them), so it somewhat shuts down the "micros are poor resale value" complaint.

Need I go on?

Yes, I think the program makes sense.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> I would love a sugar cookie but I already have an account and had already opted OUT of the emails when I first signed up. Now there's no way to opt back IN as far as I can tell.


I think if you just re-enter your email on the homepage of our site, that will re-enroll you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok, for a change of direction here. Today I woke up and turned 47 years old.. and this past Saturday my oldest son turned 15.. this morning I realized how fast time flys by, and made me so thankful for my health (minus the aches and pains), my Family, and Beautiful kids and wife! my Job (that lets me have this crazy hobby), and you all, my NTH family! ive been on WUS for many years, and of all the threads on this site, this is my favorite, and the one I feel like im at home in. So thanks to you awesome NTH friends, and to you too Chris!
> Birthday shot with my beauty Amphion Vintage Gilt. 🎉🎁🎈


Happy Birthday, and that's a very Delco-looking hacienda you got there. I can tell by the fence you don't really like at least one of your neighbors.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Happy Birthday, and that's a very Delco-looking hacienda you got there. I can tell by the fence you don't really like at least one of your neighbors.


Thank you! Brother, we have those big fences on all sides of our yard! Delco neighbors can be a handful! and here in Ridley the houses are pretty close to each other.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> Did you get the email newsletter yesterday?


Nope. I happened to go to watchgauge and they were doing the wait list thing... hence the question.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> UVA... seems to routinely under-value used NTH pieces, I suspect in order to sell them more quickly.


Can vouch for that. I believe I bought my first Scorpene from him, and it was something on which I moved immediately.

Scorpene had sold out, no word on when it would be back, with used models selling for $550+, most with "typical desk-diver" wear, but a few with significant cosmetic issues.

The one I bought popped up as "NIB, bracelet still with plastic on it, bought and never sized or worn." $500. Score! I think if he waited and priced it otherwise, he could have made more, but he was happy to sell it to me, I was happy to get a basically new watch at significant discount. Deal done.

Since then, I've purchased two three NTH subs, brand new.

I wanted to check one out before splashing out for a new model, and buying used did that for me. However, I'm ok flipping watches, and if it had not worked out, I know at that price, in that condition, it would have been no sweat, making my money back. But yeah, I might have even considered a 10% loss to do so. And incurred additional packing and shipping expenses, the possibility of an untrustworthy buyer, etc.

By comparison, the Buy Before You Try is like a (nearly) guaranteed buy-back program.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok, for a change of direction here. Today I woke up and turned 47 years old.. and this past Saturday my oldest son turned 15.. this morning I realized how fast time flys by, and made me so thankful for my health (minus the aches and pains), my Family, and Beautiful kids and wife! my Job (that lets me have this crazy hobby), and you all, my NTH family! ive been on WUS for many years, and of all the threads on this site, this is my favorite, and the one I feel like im at home in. So thanks to you awesome NTH friends, and to you too Chris!
> Birthday shot with my beauty Amphion Vintage Gilt. 🎉🎁🎈
> View attachment 15959219
> 
> ...


Happy birthday! Sounds like you're living the good life. Congrats on that.

The Amphion Vintage Gilt is probably my favorite of all the NTH Subs I've seen. Seems they're all gone now. I turn 47 in a couple months... what's a birthday boy gotta do?


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> C'mon. Join the email list. We've got cookies!


Still waiting for the cookies... just sayin...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

MrDisco99 said:


> Happy birthday! Sounds like you're living the good life. Congrats on that.
> 
> The Amphion Vintage Gilt is probably my favorite of all the NTH Subs I've seen. Seems they're all gone now. I turn 47 in a couple months... what's a birthday boy gotta do?


Thanks my friend! its my favorite too! 
Its part of the NTH 47th birthday box.. so Chris should be sending out your vintage gilt shortly lol. Sorry Chris, I couldnt resist. 😋


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

]


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Nope. I happened to go to watchgauge and they were doing the wait list thing... hence the question.


Why aren't you getting the email newsletter?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Happy birthday! Sounds like you're living the good life. Congrats on that.
> 
> The Amphion Vintage Gilt is probably my favorite of all the NTH Subs I've seen. Seems they're all gone now. I turn 47 in a couple months... what's a birthday boy gotta do?


Buy one on the used market?

See...this is what kills me, when I read "waaahhhh, resale value on micros is terrible."

Yeah, with many micros, the resale value is. Sometimes the brand sucks, or the design sucks, or they made too many, and are always discounting them, or they blew them out by the hundreds in pre-order or on Kickstarter, leading to the inevitable "just got this, already don't want it" flooding of the used market six months later.

But with NTH, we don't do that stuff. Every watch sells new for full price, when we're ready to ship. We limit production of every model, every version, in every release. Eventually, we stop making everything, and some time after that, they all become "rare" on the used market.

For every 10 guys I see whinging about resale values, there's a guy posting to our FB group that he's scouring the Earth for a Holland, or an Amphion, or some model that sold out two years ago. Sounds like a motivated buyer to me, and might be a guy who'll pay more than $500 for one.

Literally, not a week goes by that we don't get at least 3 people asking when we'll make more of something. Those buyers are out there, people.

While we were still selling the v.1 DevilRays ($700, new), they were selling on the used market for well under $500, which I thought was insane. As soon as they all sold out, used market prices shot through the roof, and I saw guys selling them for over $600. I sold two of mine for well over $700 (both close to $800).

One guy offered me $425, and was baffled that I laughed at the offer, because he had prices from six months earlier stuck in his head. I had to show him the most recent 12 sales, which averaged $650, and not all of them in very good condition. Most were well worn.

When I was responding earlier today, and thinking about whether or not I really do "cherry-pick" from the used market (and trust me, I do), I took a quick look at Watch Recon, to scan NTH listings from the most recent 2 weeks, and current listings on eBay, to see if there was much I'd buy.

Most of what's come up for sale has already sold (and fairly cheap). What's left available is slim pickings. Nothing fit my criteria.

Even if you're just looking to get rid of a fistful of hundy's, and aren't too picky, you're not really spoiled for choices. I counted 21 NTH's for sale in the US, but it's 19 different models/versions, meaning, for all but 2 of those 19, there's only 1 of that model/version for sale. For 10 of those 19, that model/version is currently sold out in the US, so the piece being sold used is the only one available anywhere in the country, at any price.

How is that a "buyer's market"? Why is everyone convinced it's not a seller's market? Because the market is flooded with sellers who just want to flip their watch right now, so they can buy something else, instead of sellers who are willing to be patient enough for the right buyer to come along.

I'm the least patient person I know, and even I'm willing to wait until the time is right to sell a watch, if that's what it takes to get the right price.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Still waiting for the cookies... just sayin...


They're on the website. You get them free when you visit.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> Buy one on the used market?


I've looked everywhere. They're gone.

It's OK though. A nice looking Barracuda Vintage Black showed up on the sale forum a couple hours ago and I just snatched it.

Do you think you'd ever bring back the Amphion style on the new platform or are you done with it? The new case certainly has more of a milsub style so maybe the dial/hands/bezel would be a good fit... or maybe it would be too obvious...?


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> I love this thread. This is the only thing I read anymore regarding watches. But it's worth it.


I'm right there with you. This is the only thread I read in the Affordable forum. I usually check out the Dive forum and occasionally the German forum. Everything else, meh.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok, for a change of direction here. Today I woke up and turned 47 years old.. and this past Saturday my oldest son turned 15.. this morning I realized how fast time flys by, and made me so thankful for my health (minus the aches and pains), my Family, and Beautiful kids and wife! my Job (that lets me have this crazy hobby), and you all, my NTH family! ive been on WUS for many years, and of all the threads on this site, this is my favorite, and the one I feel like im at home in. So thanks to you awesome NTH friends, and to you too Chris!
> Birthday shot with my beauty Amphion Vintage Gilt.
> View attachment 15959219
> 
> ...


Happy Birthday. Today is also my birthday, although I have 13 years on you. I won't break innocent devices by posting a pic of my crusty old visage. Instead here's a recycled pic of the DevilRay. Cheers, I hope you had a great day.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

MrDisco99 said:


> Happy birthday! Sounds like you're living the good life. Congrats on that.
> 
> The Amphion Vintage Gilt is probably my favorite of all the NTH Subs I've seen. Seems they're all gone now. I turn 47 in a couple months... what's a birthday boy gotta do?


Keep an eye on used, can usually pick up nth watches at a huge discount to msrp. I think a lot of the subs sell for $450ish, ballpark.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> Why aren't you getting the email newsletter?


I didn't get one either, my last NTH email came on the 16th. Checked spam, not in there.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> I didn't get one either, my last NTH email came on the 16th. Checked spam, not in there.


Same here.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> Did you get the email newsletter yesterday?


I also haven't received an email/newsletter since the 16th.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

MuckyMark said:


> Happy Birthday. Today is also my birthday, although I have 13 years on you. I won't break innocent devices by posting a pic of my crusty old visage. Instead here's a recycled pic of the DevilRay. Cheers, I hope you had a great day.


Happy birthday NTH broseph!


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

So. . . what's the secret to sizing the Nth bracelet? It usually takes me 10-15 minutes to size a bracelet with screws, but I cannot get the screws out of this bracelet. I can tell there's Loctite or some other adhesive in play, but each screw seems to freeze when it's halfway to 3/4 of the way out and I cannot get it to loosen anymore. What am I missing?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

NS1 said:


> So. . . what's the secret to sizing the Nth bracelet? It usually takes me 10-15 minutes to size a bracelet with screws, but I cannot get the screws out of this bracelet. I can tell there's Loctite or some other adhesive in play, but each screw seems to freeze when it's halfway to 3/4 of the way out and I cannot get it to loosen anymore. What am I missing?


I only had to turn the screws a few turns. As soon as enough lead was exposed, I just used my fingers to thread it the rest of the way out and then pulled it out. The screws don't thread all the way out to the point of falling out. They're only threaded about a fifth of the way at the very end and screw into the far link end. I'm guessing that you might just need to pull them out.

ETA: The screws only extend from the link a relatively small portion when unthreaded. They are full length across the entire width of the link. If there is truly 3/4 of the screw sticking out and still not coming free of the link, there is something else going on. In this case, I assure you they are not threaded (captured) in the link any longer.


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

josiahg52 said:


> I only had to turn the screws a few turns. As soon as enough lead was exposed, I just used my fingers to thread it the rest of the way out and then pulled it out. The screws don't thread all the way out to the point of falling out. They're only threaded about a fifth of the way at the very end and screw into the far link end. I'm guessing that you might just need to pull them out.
> 
> ETA: The screws only extend from the link a relatively small portion when unthreaded. They are full length across the entire width of the link. If there is truly 3/4 of the screw sticking out and still not coming free of the link, there is something else going on. In this case, I assure you they are not threaded (captured) in the link any longer.


Usually I can pull them out with my fingers, but not here. I ended up poking them out with a spring bar tool from the other side and that worked like a charm. Bracelet is sized.


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

FYI, the first Try It Before You Buy It link doesn't quite work for me (Chrome, IE, and Edge), it just takes me to the FAQ page without expanding any of the sections. NTH Watches 
The second link works fine and jumps down to the "What are the terms..." section.

I have to agree strongly with the suggestion to insert the word "partial" before "refund" in the description. Whether or not it's clarified in the terms, "return for a refund" strongly implies a full refund. I think you'll avoid a lot of issues just with that one word.

I might be daft, but the Nearly New didn't immediately strike a chord that the watch was pre-owned. I was thinking upcoming releases for some reason, like "these are nearly ready to launch" or something like that. It is pretty clear once you get to the product page and read the first sentence, though.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> I've looked everywhere. They're gone.
> 
> It's OK though. A nice looking Barracuda Vintage Black showed up on the sale forum a couple hours ago and I just snatched it.
> 
> Do you think you'd ever bring back the Amphion style on the new platform or are you done with it? The new case certainly has more of a milsub style so maybe the dial/hands/bezel would be a good fit... or maybe it would be too obvious...?


Good question. I'm honestly unsure. Just thinking out loud...

Ideally, my business keeps growing, and with growth comes the ability to more easily rationalize the production of anything and everything. Whatever we make, we have to produce 300-500 per case, 300 per bracelet / srap, 50 per dial variation (50 with date / 50 no-date), assemble at least 25 at a time (each release) per dial variation, etc.

And of course, we want whatever we make to sell quickly enough, rather than linger too long on stores' shelves. Whatever we consider making, I have to be fairly confident we can sell 25-50 pieces fairly quickly, and that there will be total demand for 100 pieces within a year or two, so we can use the remaining dials and other components.

We're basically looking forward to the day when the business is doing so much volume that our vendors' MOQ's are no longer a concern.

The Amphions have never sold as well as I would have expected. Never as well as the Barracudas or Nackens. But that doesn't mean we'll never make them again. It may mean we just make them less frequently, and let demand build up for a longer time, as we've done with other versions.

That said, it's not a make / don't make question for me. It's a this or that question. If and when the time comes that we MIGHT make more Amphions, I won't just be thinking about whether or not the time is right, and whether or not to make them. I'll also be considering what else we might make instead. We might have a new or another existing design we think will sell better.

I've spent the last few years trying to figure out the right "cadence" and mix of models for our production. We're still trying to dial it in. It's difficult, because we're trying to predict what the market will want 4-6 months in advance. I've found that trying to survey the market is useless. I'm mostly looking at past experience and listening to my gut.

Making more of an existing design is certainly easier for us, and more efficient. So we'd like to be able to keep making existing designs, even if some only make an appearance once every 2-3 years. There's no development time, and much lower risk that we'll have production mistakes / delays.

Conversely, developing a new design sucks up time and energy, but brings the potential of creating some excitement among customers, yet also the risk of mistakes / delays, and the risk that it'll fall flat.

Getting the product mix and / or the pacing wrong can throw a pretty big wrench into our works. So I've been gradually getting more conservative the last few years, essentially making what I call "high percentage" plays - product development and production decisions which may not have as much upside, but also don't have as much downside, and appear more likely to work out for the better.

TL;DR - I don't know. Sign up for the email newsletter.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> TL;DR - I don't know. Sign up for the email newsletter.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> Getting the product mix and / or the pacing wrong can throw a pretty big wrench into our works. So I've been gradually getting more conservative the last few years, essentially making what I call "high percentage" plays - product development and production decisions which may not have as much upside, but also don't have as much downside, and appear more likely to work out for the better.
> 
> TL;DR - I don't know. Sign up for the email newsletter.


Well sure... now that you have a bit of history, you can use that to help predict the future and make marketing decisions accordingly. That makes sense.

And yes, I am signed up for the cookies.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Before too much time passes, I want to respond to the comments about not getting the email newsletter, now, or since the 16th, or whatever.

First, at least 2-3 times a year, someone will say they're not getting the email newsletter - anymore. When I look up their email, I see they unsubscribed. Apparently they forgot.

I don't want to make anyone feel stupid, so...try re-subscribing, because if you unsubscribed yourself, our system doesn't allow us to re-subscribe you. I *THINK* re-subscribing yourself will work, but I'm waiting for confirmation from my CMO.

Second, I just spoke to my CMO to ask if we've changed anything in our system since the 16th. He said we haven't, but mentioned some iOS update for Apple users which was recently rolled out, which he thinks has something to do with individual privacy, which might impact email marketing.

He said he'd look into it further, and see if there's something Apple users can or should to to make sure they're not missing messages.

I just searched it up. From what little I read, it seems that iOS now has some feature or setting which blocks tracking pixels, which would tell an email marketer if a message was opened, when, how often, if some link in the message was clicked, etc. Apparently this falls under the heading of "App Tracking Transparency".










From that, and reading online discussion about it, I gather that Apple users can allow apps to request to track in your settings. I would guess the app you want to look into is whatever app you use for email.

Regarding those tracking pixels - don't read too much into it, or assume the worst, please. We have over 13,000 people on our email newsletter list. When we send out a blast, we don't always look at the open/click data. When we do, all we're looking at are the percentages - what percentage of people opened the message, what percentage clicked, how many clicked this link or that link, etc.

It's extremely rare (as in, almost never happens) that we'd ever isolate in on a specific subscriber, to see their activity. The scenarios where it might happen would be:

A. We're looking to see if someone is subscribed, or when they unsubscribed. We don't care if they opened or read this or that message. We've done that a handful of times.

B. We're looking to see if someone who claims they never got a specific message (like a delivery notification on their order) actually got it, and opened it, read it, etc. I've done that once.

C. We spot something odd, like someone who opened the same message 57 times in the first 24 hours. That's happened once or twice. To this day, I don't know why.

We've sent out dozens and dozens of messages, to tens of thousands of people, over the last 9 years. We're not doing anything dastardly with your data. We don't sell anyone's info to anyone else. We don't use the email data for anything other than trying to improve our own communications with customers, about what this business is doing.

If you unsubscribe from the email newsletter, you're not going to be keeping up to date. If you disable tracking, not only are you hurting our ability to help you, you apparently could now be effectively doing the same thing - unsubscribing - if the email app you use blocks the message from getting to you, because of those tracking pixels.

For now, I can assure everyone of a few things:

1. We haven't changed anything in our system, which would affect anyone's ability to receive the email newsletter. The last system change we made was well over a year ago.

2. If you're not getting it, the overwhelming odds-on favorite for an explanation is that you unsubscribed, and forgot you did that. But for iOS users, it may be related to a recent iOS update, and you may need to allow your email app to request to track. I gather that may trigger some warning or permission granting option when you receive email marketing, but I'm not an iOS user, so I'm speculating.

3. The email newsletter will remain the most reliable source of updates for all things related to what we're doing. And there will likely remain a 63.6% chance I'll ask you why you're not subscribed to the email newsletter if you decide to randomly ask me for an update about anything, because that will always be a pet peeve of mine.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NS1 said:


> So. . . what's the secret to sizing the Nth bracelet? It usually takes me 10-15 minutes to size a bracelet with screws, but I cannot get the screws out of this bracelet. I can tell there's Loctite or some other adhesive in play, but each screw seems to freeze when it's halfway to 3/4 of the way out and I cannot get it to loosen anymore. What am I missing?


1.2mm wide flat head screwdriver.

There is minimal if any Loctite on the screws. More likely, there's some metal flashing or other small debris stuck in the threads. Try turning back and forth to see if that clears it out.

Also, as someone else mentioned - it sometimes happened that a screws is completely un-threaded already. Push it out using a pin, or pull it out using small pliers.

If all else fails, screw it back in, and remove a different link.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Speaking of the used micro market……. My barracuda sold within hours of being posted at what I think was a solid price for a used v1 Sub. I might have gotten more if I waited, but I’m impatient and prefer a quick sale to someone I know is excited to have an NTH. Plus I have now a third watch possibly showing up next month….. that the wife sorta knows about hahaha. You only turn 40 once right?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> FYI, the first Try It Before You Buy It link doesn't quite work for me (Chrome, IE, and Edge), it just takes me to the FAQ page without expanding any of the sections. NTH Watches
> The second link works fine and jumps down to the "What are the terms..." section.
> 
> I have to agree strongly with the suggestion to insert the word "partial" before "refund" in the description. Whether or not it's clarified in the terms, "return for a refund" strongly implies a full refund. I think you'll avoid a lot of issues just with that one word.
> ...


Thanks for the heads-up about that first link. I've got my marketing team updating all those links on the site.

I'm still considering whether or not to add "partial".

We spent a good bit of time brainstorming terms which would convey the right tone regarding the condition, and the value of the program. We were looking for something analogous to "Certified Used", which people seem to understand, but without simply calling them that. What we came up with was "Nearly New", which, if nothing else, is accurate, as a descriptor.

When we thought about "Pre-worn", "Pre-loved", "Previously Used", "Gently Used", and all sorts of synonymous terms, we didn't like them as much.

We don't want to simply call them "Used", because I know how many people would see that, look at the prices, and scoff, "That's an outrageous asking price for a used watch!"

We believe the term needs to convey something meaningful, and accurate, but also entice people to read a little further, and be something which suggests a higher degree of confidence regarding the condition, as compared to simply "Used".

If people are somehow confused by "Nearly", because we said some new model release is "nearly ready", that's unfortunate, but I suppose would go to support the idea that many folks are on auto-pilot while reading almost anything now, so it may not make much difference what we say, if we're seeking some improved result.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

MuckyMark said:


> Happy Birthday. Today is also my birthday, although I have 13 years on you. I won't break innocent devices by posting a pic of my crusty old visage. Instead here's a recycled pic of the DevilRay. Cheers, I hope you had a great day.


sorry for the late reply, Happy Birthday my friend!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One more note about the email blasts, and those tracking pixels...

At one time, we had almost 30,000 people subscribed to our email newsletter. We pay a monthly fee based on the size of our subscribers list, and it's not cheap.

But when we analyzed the open / read / click-through rates, we found that the majority of people really weren't engaged at all. They were people who signed up years ago, and are no longer buying watches. Or people who signed up because we were giving away a watch, but otherwise, they were never "customers". They weren't opening the messages and reading them. They were never clicking on anything in them.

We made a decision to start culling the list. Over the last two years we've periodically removed anyone who hasn't opened a message we've sent in the previous 6 months. Not only are we saving on the fees we're paying by having a smaller list, the people who remain are much more engaged. We've seen our open-read rates triple. Email marketers salivate over the sort of numbers we're seeing.

If you disable those pixels, you're preventing us from seeing that you're in the group that actually WANTS the newsletter, and eventually, we could cull you from the herd.

If you want to ride with us, it's ride or die, to the end of the line, or stay on the curb.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Speaking of the used micro market&#8230;&#8230;. My barracuda sold within hours of being posted at what I think was a solid price for a used v1 Sub. I might have gotten more if I waited, but I'm impatient and prefer a quick sale to someone I know is excited to have an NTH. Plus I have now a third watch possibly showing up next month&#8230;.. that the wife sorta knows about hahaha. You only turn 40 once right?


Actually, once you're in your 40's, it often feels like you're turning 40 every day, inasmuch as all the signs of aging start becoming more apparent - suddenly appearing moles, ear hair, sudden balding, wanting people to stay off your lawn, etc.

I'd just turned 40 when I tore a calf muscle going after a tennis ball - playing a doubles match against my parents, who were in their 60's at the time. And they were taking it easy.

Apparently I should have stretched first.


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## bes-b2 (Jan 16, 2009)

I love my Odin.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

bes-b2 said:


> I love my Odin.
> View attachment 15961980


Damn that looks good!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Or people who signed up because we were giving away a watch,


Free watches? We don't need no stinkin' free watches&#8230;oh, wait&#8230;


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Da Blues - NTH got 'em.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> ....
> If you want to ride with us, it's ride or die, to the end of the line, or stay on the curb.


What's wrong with sitting on the kerb? It's quite comfy actually! 









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

At 40 you hit the bow wave of 60. You just don’t know it yet.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> When we thought about "Pre-worn", "Pre-loved", "Previously Used", "Gently Used", and all sorts of synonymous terms, we didn't like them as much.


Isn't this the definition of manufacturer refurbished? Look at Apple. Buy one of their refurbished MacBooks directly from them... they replace the battery, the shell, anything else that needs replacing. Test everything before selling. You're buying a machine that someone owned previously but with all new key elements and QC'd as new.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Isn't this the definition of manufacturer refurbished? Look at Apple. Buy one of their refurbished MacBooks directly from them... they replace the battery, the shell, anything else that needs replacing. Test everything before selling. You're buying a machine that someone owned previously but with all new key elements and QC'd as new.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I wouldn't argue with that.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> At 40 you hit the bow wave of 60. You just don't know it yet.


Does that mean I'm in the wake at 70?


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

RmacMD said:


> Does that mean I'm in the wake at 70?


Was going to say&#8230;this 63 year old bikes 10 miles just about every morning to start the day. It's very true that age is just a number.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

At 62 im in better shape than I ever was in my 30's!


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ugh. I just turned 77. Never have I been in poorer condition.


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Been a minute , though certainly always keeping tabs on what's doing with NTH 

Hope everyone has been well 























































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Just because Sunday!


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

ck2k01 said:


> Been a minute , though certainly always keeping tabs on what's doing with NTH
> 
> Hope everyone has been well
> 
> ...


Looks fantastic on the mesh. I think that watch looks great on all manner of straps. Do you mind sharing your wrist size?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> Looks fantastic on the mesh. I think that watch looks great on all manner of straps. Do you mind sharing your wrist size?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks !

The gen 1 stock bracelet is excellent, but I often like to bring the heft down with  mesh.

And certainly: a flat 6.5"

Gotta love that 46mm l2l. The DR = a master class in wrist presence that still works on most wrists given the restrained l2l.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

It dawned on me that I havent taken a family photo since I picked up my Azores.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## whatisk (Mar 5, 2020)

Finally got some decent weather so here's the newly arrived Antilles


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

Looking forward to picking up one of these soon. I'm looking at the Nacken. Can anyone confirm the new version will be coming early July??


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

npl_texas said:


> Looking forward to picking up one of these soon. I'm looking at the Nacken. Can anyone confirm the new version will be coming early July??


The V2's are projected to arrive in July yes&#8230;. But don't poke Doc too much&#8230;. He doesn't like it when you poke him about release dates&#8230;


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Don't listen to @nonfatproduct, Doc _loves_ being asked about release dates.

Do it. 
Poke the bear.
Listen to crazy Shia.


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

Just signed up for an account and to get the newsletter. I'm guessing that's the best way to get the release info?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

npl_texas said:


> Just signed up for an account and to get the newsletter. I'm guessing that's the best way to get the release info?


Correct, welcome to the herd!


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> Correct, welcome to the herd!


Awesome. Thanks! I had a couple of Lew and Hueys a while back. I like these dive watches a lot more. I understand it's the same owner.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

npl_texas said:


> Awesome. Thanks! I had a couple of Lew and Hueys a while back. I like these dive watches a lot more. I understand it's the same owner.


Correct again.

Go over to Watch Gauge if you haven't already. John has the wait list for the v2 subs already up.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

npl_texas said:


> Awesome. Thanks! I had a couple of Lew and Hueys a while back. I like these dive watches a lot more. I understand it's the same owner.


Ok, prepare for a random forum member geek out.....I was (still am) a big L&H fan! Owned 6, still own 4. Fantastic value in those watches IMO!

If you enjoyed L&H, you will greatly enjoy an NTH. My experience is that the owner @docvail took what he learned with L&H and built an ever better watch & value with NTH. My NTH joins me on my daily excursions regularly, and I have my eye out for the right 2nd piece.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> I have my eye out for the right 2nd piece.












On second thought.... 
I guess you're _kinda_ in the clear with 4 L&H's.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

npl_texas said:


> Just signed up for an account and to get the newsletter. I'm guessing that's the best way to get the release info?


I could hug you right now.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15966017
> 
> 
> On second thought....
> I guess you're _kinda_ in the clear with 4 L&H's.


Two new NTH rubber straps arrived Friday. Does that help?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Two new NTH rubber straps arrived Friday. Does that help?












Ok.... No more gifs. I'll stop now.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 15966024
> 
> 
> Ok.... No more gifs. I'll stop now.


Gifs make WUS better


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

ck2k01 said:


> Thanks !
> 
> The gen 1 stock bracelet is excellent, but I often like to bring the heft down with  mesh.
> 
> ...


Thanks. My wrist is same size as yours and it looks great on yours so I guess I have no choice in the matter anymore&#8230;.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> I could hug you right now.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


In lieu of a hug please provide a huge discount code. 😝


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

npl_texas said:


> In lieu of a hug please provide a huge discount code. 😝


Jk I love supporting business owners.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

npl_texas said:


> Looking forward to picking up one of these soon. I'm looking at the Nacken. Can anyone confirm the new version will be coming early July??


That's what the most recent update said.


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> Thanks. My wrist is same size as yours and it looks great on yours so I guess I have no choice in the matter anymore&#8230;.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Ok......phew, am I tired. I haven't read this thread in about 5 days and I had a mountain of text to navigate before arriving.....that 4 days ago posts with a sleep deprived Doc was a dilly.

Doc.... any word on the guy that sent the Nearly New watch back on 61st day after purchase or was that the same one you mentioned had recieved a gift from his wife?

As far as the Nearly New watch section, it is my new obsession. Was not easy to find at 1st. I also didn't know these were scoured off the nets and thought they might just be yours or one of your samples, not a random person's watch updated. 

I think. Nth Certified: Pre- Owned really covers the bases.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Rhorya said:


> At 62 im in better shape than I ever was in my 30's!


Damn bro! I thought I had some nice guns at 47, but dang I clearly have some work to do!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> Ok......phew, am I tired. I haven't read this thread in about 5 days and I had a mountain of text to navigate before arriving.....that 4 days ago posts with a sleep deprived Doc was a dilly.
> 
> Doc.... any word on the guy that sent the Nearly New watch back on 61st day after purchase or was that the same one you mentioned had recieved a gift from his wife?
> 
> ...


The guy whose wife bought him a watch - I refunded him the other 10%, because after looking at his tracking info, I noticed he contacted us about returning it the same day he got it.

We trade a couple of very pleasant emails. I apologized for not pausing long enough to see the reasonableness of making an exception to policy in his case. He was happy to get the rest of his refund, but also understood the policy's reasoning. He said he's a fan of the brand, and will be back.

The guy who sent the watch back on day 61 (different guy) - that one turns out to be a bit of a comedy of errors...

Because he's bought some NTH's from Watch Gauge, I guess he forgot he bought this one from my store. He noticed the crown assembly was stiff, and wanted to send it in for lubrication. Instead of contacting us about it, he contacted Keil.

It didn't strike Keil as odd, because he recognized the dude's name. Keil didn't stop to check if the guy bought this particular watch from him. He assumed he did, because the guy was a repeat customer. So Keil arranged for him to send it back to us, which isn't unusual. He usually gives us a heads up when he does that, but this time, he didn't.

There's a repair sheet we're supposed to get with watches coming back for service - details of the issue, contact and return shipping info of the watch's owner - but it wasn't included. Hence, our complete confusion. It was literally just a watch landing at our workshop, out of the blue.

So, in retrospect, my fretting over the Nearly New terms could have been avoided, had I slowed down long enough to look at the first guy's tracking info, and had we known the second guy wasn't returning the watch for refund, but rather for service.

The Nearly New watches often are samples we've sent out for photography or blogger review. We just got back a Barracuda Polar White from Will at Zaltek Reviews. He had it on the BOR, but we have it listed on our site on either bracelet, because we can swap the bracelet out.

We also just got back a 2K1 which I'd sent to the UK for review, and which had then taken a detour to spend some time with one of the Fan Men there, sort of a one-stop, modified version of the Whirled Tour.

I can't remember if I've sold any of my personal watches in that section, but I would if they fit the bill. I thinned out my collection a good bit over the last 2 years, and am pretty content with what's in it right now. So I don't foresee that happening for a good while.

Sometimes we get watches returned for something we missed in QC, usually something marginal, maybe a small / slight exterior mark, like a scratch under the lugs. If we can sort it out and return the watch to new inventory for sale, we will, but sometimes it'll end up in the Nearly New section

Other times, I'll see someone I recognize as a customer selling a watch I know they bought recently, and I can tell from the pics the watch is pristine. If the price is low enough, I'll snag it before someone else does. Sometimes I don't know the seller, but I'm willing to take a chance on it because the price is good and the condition looks good enough.

I'm not spending *A LOT* of time looking at used market listings, but the time I've spent has shown me a lot, and it's a good way to keep my finger on the pulse of the market.

It's amazing to me, how often someone's pics aren't close enough / clear enough to truly show the condition of the watch, or they are, and they betray a condition much worse than the seller is claiming. I saw one the other day, that the seller described in glowing terms, but the pics showed a clasp that looked like it had been dragged behind a car.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> I can't remember if I've sold any of my personal watches in that section, but I would if they fit the bill. I thinned out my collection a good bit over the last 2 years, and am pretty content with what's in it right now. So I don't foresee that happening for a good while.


Well now you gotta tell us... what did you keep for yourself?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm considering adding a different Antilles colorway, "Rosé" to the next release of Tropics. Not sure if we want to do a linen dial texture, or stick to the wood-grain. Which do you all like better?

Linen:










Wood grain:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

npl_texas said:


> In lieu of a hug please provide a huge discount code. 😝


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

I think the linen looks better, especially with that color.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

I like the wood grain, but I think its hard to tell from a render without seeing how the light plays off the dials..


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

linen


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Well now you gotta tell us... what did you keep for yourself?


Pretty sure I posted this already (with crap-tastic pics), but...

v.1 40mm Subs:
2 Scorpenes - 1 black, 1 blue, both no-date.
2 Odins - 1 black, 1 blue, both no-date.
2 Nackens - 1 Modern Blue, 1 Renegade, both no-date.
2 Barracudas - 1 Vintage Black, 1 Brown, both no-date.
1 Nazzario Azzurro - not sure if I'll keep it, but not in any rush to sell it.

DevilRays:
1 v.1, Black, no-date - wanted to sell it, nobody wanted to pay my asking price. Started wearing it again. Now in no rush to sell.
1 v.2, Blue, no-date.

Tropics:
1 v.2 Azores Blue, no-date

Lew & Huey:
1 Cerberus, white, modified with the orange rehaut from the blue.
1 Spectre 2, blue sunburst, no-date, orange second hand.

Seiko:
1 Samurai, steel, orange dial/bezel.
1 SBDC053 (Blue, one of those quasi "62 Mas" re-issues they did a few years back).

Of the 16, I only have 10 here at the moment. My Nazario is in Dan's shop since we got it back from photograpy (for the rubber straps). My Odin is also in the shop, waiting on a replacement seconds hand. And I sent the other 4 (Azores, v.2 DevilRay, Barracuda VB and Nacken Modern Blue) to Marc at Island watch as samples for his inspection.

It's weird, looking at my 24-slot case, and only seeing 10 watches in it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Pretty sure I posted this already (with crap-tastic pics), but...
> 
> v.1 40mm Subs:
> 2 Scorpenes - 1 black, 1 blue, both no-date.
> ...


Yeah, I did post my SOTC - This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread

What's come / gone since then:










White v.2 DevilRay - never wore it, sold it to Keil, who sold it in his store (it was still NEW).

Blue v.2 DevilRay - now with Marc at Island Watch.

v.2 Tropics prototypes - sent to Watch Gecko for photography. Haven't gotten them back yet. Added a Blue Azores, but that's also now with Marc at Island Watch.

Vanguard - sent it to a friend in Japan, who's trying to open up the Japanese market, along with two other samples (1 DevilRay, 1 2K1).

Nacken Modern Blue and BVB - with Marc at Island Watch.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm considering adding a different Antilles colorway, "Rosé" to the next release of Tropics. Not sure if we want to do a linen dial texture, or stick to the wood-grain. Which do you all like better?
> 
> Linen:
> 
> ...


Wood grain looks like sunset after a day of work fishing, sitting down with good friends at a rustic beachside table, enjoying beverages and fresh seafood by a driftwood fire.

Linen looks like the shirt Josh from accounting is trying out, in an effort to impress Darlene in graphic design, with a show of sexual ambiguity. He's not gay but intimates he may have experimented in college, NTTAWWT.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Wood grain looks like sunset after a day of work fishing, sitting down with good friends at a rustic beachside table, enjoying beverages and fresh seafood by a driftwood fire.
> 
> Linen looks like the shirt Josh from accounting is trying out, in an effort to impress Darlene in graphic design, with a show of sexual ambiguity. He's not gay but intimates he may have experimented in college, NTTAWWT.


Serious lol....


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'm considering adding a different Antilles colorway, "Rosé" to the next release of Tropics. Not sure if we want to do a linen dial texture, or stick to the wood-grain. Which do you all like better?
> 
> Linen:
> 
> ...


Based off of renders, its kinda hard. But I'd say wood grain.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> Linen looks like the shirt Josh from accounting is trying out, in an effort to impress Darlene in graphic design, with a show of sexual ambiguity. He's not gay but intimates he may have experimented in college, NTTAWWT.


Wow... you found me.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Linen, but you can ignore me. That’s a color of watch I’d never buy unless you made a watch small enough for the wife’s wrist.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

npl_texas said:


> Jk I love supporting business owners.


How do you feel about supporting recovering watch addicts? Usually a gem or two available used at any given time. You could get a little taste while you wait for some crown guards.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dbp512 (Jun 17, 2021)

Based on the renders I like the linen, but it would look out of place since both of the other Antilles have the wood grain dial (like both of the Azores have the sunray dial). Why not make the linen dial a 3rd model, in Rosé and some other color, say, grenadine?


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

3WR said:


> How do you feel about supporting recovering watch addicts? Usually a gem or two available used at any given time. You could get a little taste while you wait for some crown guards.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha what are you shilling?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Wood grain, stick with your theme...especially when it looks good 

2 straps arrived this afternoon, hoping to get them on tomorrow! My Orthos has always been on the bracelet, ready for a change.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

IMHO, you should use whatever technique you used for the Renegade on the Rose.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

npl_texas said:


> Haha what are you shilling?


I'm not in recovery yet. So nothing. But if I were, I'd likely toss a couple up for sale on this forum.

Pretty sure most folks can find multiple designs they like. If that describes you, you could cast a wide net in looking for a good used deal.

Good luck with however you proceed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

3WR said:


> I'm not in recovery yet. So nothing. But if I were, I'd likely toss a couple up for sale on this forum.
> 
> Pretty sure most folks can find multiple designs they like. If that describes you, you could cast a wide net in looking for a good used deal.
> 
> ...


I think I'm just going to trust the fine members here and get a new one.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Still wearing my Amphicudda hybrid. I cannot stop starring at this watch, I am so glad I did it after I failed to persuade Chris to make one 



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Omegafanboy said:


> Still wearing my Amphicudda hybrid. I cannot stop starring at this watch, I am so glad I did it after I failed to persuade Chris to make one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My weakness is the Amphion, and Bro, this Mod looks fantastic!
Also, what bracelet is that? doesnt look like the stock NTH oyster.


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> Still wearing my Amphicudda hybrid. I cannot stop starring at this watch, I am so glad I did it after I failed to persuade Chris to make one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks great.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

PowerChucker said:


> My weakness is the Amphion, and Bro, this Mod looks fantastic!
> Also, what bracelet is that? doesnt look like the stock NTH oyster.


You are correct, it is an Aliexpress special from Carlywet I believe. It is a "Rolex" type oyster with 20-16mm taper and a diver expansion in the clasp, although not a full glide-lock. I prefer the bigger taper on the braclet and I got lucky with the end link fitting.

I have bought about 5 different "Rolex" type bracelets and some have fit one watch, but not others, and vis versa. Thankfully they all cost less than $20 each so it was not a hardship if one did not work.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dbp512 said:


> Based on the renders I like the linen, but it would look out of place since both of the other Antilles have the wood grain dial (like both of the Azores have the sunray dial). Why not make the linen dial a 3rd model, in Rosé and some other color, say, grenadine?


I think the red of grenadine is both a little too bold, and a little too close to the Cointreau we already have in the mix.

I don't know that the linen dial would necessarily look out of place alongside the wood-grain versions. I'm mostly just concerned about which will look better and sell better.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> IMHO, you should use whatever technique you used for the Renegade on the Rose.


Vertical brushing.


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## dbp512 (Jun 17, 2021)

docvail said:


> I think the red of grenadine is both a little too bold, and a little too close to the Cointreau we already have in the mix.
> 
> I don't know that the linen dial would necessarily look out of place alongside the wood-grain versions. I'm mostly just concerned about which will look better and sell better.


In that case I won't suggest a cherry burst. You're right that it wouldn't look out of place, so much as I see the linen dial as a good opportunity/excuse to make it into a different model instead of including it in the Antilles line. The coral color isn't quite my style, but in a darker shade it would be hard to resist.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Just because Tuesday!


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## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

It is a good day for a swiftsure!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh. Traffic.

















This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Anybody got a pic of the new tropics (any one of them ), on a strap, preferably the rubber strap that came with? Both of mine are on bracelets and I can’t seem to get the pins out, even with tool. Would like to see how it looks before I pay someone to do it for me.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Anybody got a pic of the new tropics (any one of them ), on a strap, preferably the rubber strap that came with? Both of mine are on bracelets and I can't seem to get the pins out, even with tool. Would like to see how it looks before I pay someone to do it for me.


Best I can do. The OEM tropic was too small for me on the buckle side.


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## Herbert Bogner (Sep 26, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Anybody got a pic of the new tropics (any one of them ), on a strap, preferably the rubber strap that came with? Both of mine are on bracelets and I can't seem to get the pins out, even with tool. Would like to see how it looks before I pay someone to do it for me.


Here's mine on the rubber strap.Those pins in the bracelet were not easy, that's for sure.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> Best I can do. The OEM tropic was too small for me on the buckle side.
> View attachment 15969488





Herbert Bogner said:


> Here's mine on the rubber strap.Those pins in the bracelet were not easy, that's for sure.
> 
> View attachment 15969533


Thanks folks, exceptionally helpful. Was trying to determine gap since I'm spoiled by the Swiftsure custom "to the case" look on the orange strap (and the drilled lugs for sure). Now to find a matching green in rubber for the Azores. Already have a brown croc for the dark rum Antilles.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Thanks folks, exceptionally helpful. Was trying to determine gap since I'm spoiled by the Swiftsure custom "to the case" look on the orange strap (and the drilled lugs for sure). Now to find a matching green in rubber for the Azores. Already have a brown croc for the dark rum Antilles.











FKM RUBBER - TROPIC STRAP (GREEN)


Uniquely manufactured by MONSTER STRAPS. Contemporary, durable and incredibly comfortable.Moulded from vulcanised rubber for superior durability. Excellent resistance to UV rays, extreme temperatures, mechanical stresses, chemicals, and seawater. This is not the typical vintage style rubber...




monstraps.com





I've been contemplating this one. I've also come to the conclusion that finding a true "match" is gonna be nigh on impossible. I thought that BluShark NATO was gonna be _perfect_. Best of luck on your search.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> FKM RUBBER - TROPIC STRAP (GREEN)
> 
> 
> Uniquely manufactured by MONSTER STRAPS. Contemporary, durable and incredibly comfortable.Moulded from vulcanised rubber for superior durability. Excellent resistance to UV rays, extreme temperatures, mechanical stresses, chemicals, and seawater. This is not the typical vintage style rubber...
> ...


Thanks again. Looks like they have a nice nylon green as well&#8230;









Blackbay Adjustable - Green


An exclusive MONSTERSTRAPS manufacture, we have combined the desirable characteristics of the different Nato Straps on the market into one of our own. Features 1. 316L stainless steel buckle and keeper hardware for better durability and resistance 2. CNC machined finish buckle with brushed...




monstraps.com


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

NTH strap is on, and I am a fan! Great choice for any NTH sub!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Thanks folks, exceptionally helpful. Was trying to determine gap since I'm spoiled by the Swiftsure custom "to the case" look on the orange strap (and the drilled lugs for sure). Now to find a matching green in rubber for the Azores. Already have a brown croc for the dark rum Antilles.


Not sure if these just weren't good enough, but there's a pic of each Tropic, on the tropic strap, on the product pages of our website.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> FKM RUBBER - TROPIC STRAP (GREEN)
> 
> 
> Uniquely manufactured by MONSTER STRAPS. Contemporary, durable and incredibly comfortable.Moulded from vulcanised rubber for superior durability. Excellent resistance to UV rays, extreme temperatures, mechanical stresses, chemicals, and seawater. This is not the typical vintage style rubber...
> ...


That's a good price for an FKM tropic strap.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Not sure if these just weren't good enough, but there's a pic of each Tropic, on the tropic strap, on the product pages of our website.
> 
> View attachment 15969605
> View attachment 15969606
> ...


They're fine, but I've found over time I prefer photos more akin to how I'd be seeing them in the same type of lighting conditions I'd be using them in.  Those appear to be studio type shots where camera setting are meticulously used to make subjects appear as perfect as possible.

Besides, then others couldn't show off more of their NTH stables!


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> NTH strap is on, and I am a fan! Great choice for any NTH sub!
> View attachment 15969604


So that's what a 36mm Sub looks like. Cool. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

3WR said:


> So that's what a 36mm Sub looks like. Cool.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Caution: watches on my wrist may be larger than they appear


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Ready for SCF game 2 tomorrow!









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I've decided I want a black DLC Santa Fe after looking at the pictures in this thread from six months ago of (the only) one. So I've doubled my difficulty or probably exponentially increased it.

The most straightforward, if not the easiest way is to find a Santa Fe and find a DLC Sub and swap the completed movements between the cases. The only thing involved might be a bezel insert change or two. The good thing is that if I find the right DLC Sub, I might end up with two nice watches.

The much more difficult way would be to find a Santa Fe, disassemble it into components (not touching the movement) and have the case parts and bracelet finished in black IonBond DLC. There's an applicator nearby that has done work for me before that I would trust with this job. The only thing with this path is that it involves removal and reinstallation of the crystal. 

It'll be a job and will take some time but that's okay. Gives me time to sell some of my watches that I don't just wear or are duplicative.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

josiahg52 said:


> I've decided I want a black DLC Santa Fe after looking at the pictures in this thread from six months ago of (the only) one. So I've doubled my difficulty or probably exponentially increased it.
> 
> The most straightforward, if not the easiest way is to find a Santa Fe and find a DLC Sub and swap the completed movements between the cases. The only thing involved might be a bezel insert change or two. The good thing is that if I find the right DLC Sub, I might end up with two nice watches.
> 
> ...


Did you ask doc already if they have the parts yet?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

josiahg52 said:


> I've decided I want a black DLC Santa Fe after looking at the pictures in this thread from six months ago of (the only) one. So I've doubled my difficulty or probably exponentially increased it.
> 
> The most straightforward, if not the easiest way is to find a Santa Fe and find a DLC Sub and swap the completed movements between the cases. The only thing involved might be a bezel insert change or two. The good thing is that if I find the right DLC Sub, I might end up with two nice watches.
> 
> ...


Have you reached out to the seller who has a Santa Fe listed on WUS? They don't pop up often&#8230;


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> One more note about the email blasts, and those tracking pixels...
> 
> At one time, we had almost 30,000 people subscribed to our email newsletter. We pay a monthly fee based on the size of our subscribers list, and it's not cheap.
> 
> ...


And that's fair, but I stopped getting them even though I open every email AND I only signed up a few months ago. Have I bought anything yet, nope, doesn't mean I won't.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Been so busy lately that I haven't been able to keep up with wus. But all's good because I've been wearing this since Saturday


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Eeny, meeny, miny, mo&#8230;on which bike, then go, go, go&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I've decided I want a black DLC Santa Fe after looking at the pictures in this thread from six months ago of (the only) one. So I've doubled my difficulty or probably exponentially increased it.
> 
> The most straightforward, if not the easiest way is to find a Santa Fe and find a DLC Sub and swap the completed movements between the cases. The only thing involved might be a bezel insert change or two. The good thing is that if I find the right DLC Sub, I might end up with two nice watches.
> 
> ...


Or, you could find a Santa Fe, buy it, and we could sell you a DLC case and bracelet.

Yes, we have DLC cases and bracelets. I considered putting them up for sale on the website. We just haven't gotten around to it.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Ugh. Traffic.


Probably some WIS, staring at his watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLittle said:


> And that's fair, but I stopped getting them even though I open every email AND I only signed up a few months ago. Have I bought anything yet, nope, doesn't mean I won't.


We didn't remove you. We haven't removed anyone recently.

Are you an iOS user?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Probably some WIS, staring at his watch.


Pretty bad crash. Shut down all traffic - 3 lanes going in either direction - and brought out not one but two traffic-copters.

I didn't move my car an inch for half an hour, on the hottest day of the year so far. It was 96 degrees, with no shade in sight.

I was seriously scared I'd run out of gas, my car would overheat, or I'd have to pee.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Everyone who isn't getting the newsletter - if you used to get it, email us at customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com, and we'll look into it.


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## WizardofWatch (Dec 12, 2018)

docvail said:


> I appreciate everyone's help with this exercise, and everyone's feedback. Truly. It's all valuable.
> 
> So...this isn't meant as an argument with either of you gents, nor do I want to sound defensive. I respect both your views, and appreciate you sharing them. That said, I feel compelled to offer some insight into the thinking that went into the program.
> 
> ...


I know this is a few days old and maybe somebody already covered it - how about changing it to a sort of rent-a-watch program? You put down a deposit for a watch. And then you get back a predetermined percentage depending on how long you kept the watch. Keep a limit to the "rent" time. As in, if you keep the watch longer than 8 weeks, you get nothing back.
I am sure I am missing something here. But just a suggestion.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WizardofWatch said:


> I know this is a few days old and maybe somebody already covered it - how about changing it to a sort of rent-a-watch program? You put down a deposit for a watch. And then you get back a predetermined percentage depending on how long you kept the watch. Keep a limit to the "rent" time. As in, if you keep the watch longer than 8 weeks, you get nothing back.
> I am sure I am missing something here. But just a suggestion.


No, you're not really missing something, I don't think.

When we were brainstorming all this, that was one of the ways we looked at it. The try it before you buy it program could be viewed sort of like a rental. We also conceived of it in other ways that aren't quite as analogous now, given the way the current program works, like test-drives, or time-shares and such.

If your thinking is that we could simply charge a small amount up front (the "rent"), the problem there is what happens if the watch doesn't come back, or if it does, it's badly beaten up. Having the program structured the way we do - with a higher cost up front - weeds out those who would take advantage, and allows people to view it as either a purchase (as 6 out of 7 ultimately have), or as a rental, or test-drive, or whatever.

It occurs to me that we could try to find watches which are more used (not in as good a condition), which we could buy for less, and sell (or rent) for less. But that's problematic, for a few reasons.

First, they really wouldn't be "Nearly New". We now have a single, very high standard for the quality of the watches, one which doesn't get much if any push-back from those who receive them. With a tight set of search criteria, I'm not spending a lot of time haggling with sellers, or figuring out how to price the watches based on their condition.

But if we started buying and selling more heavily used pieces, we'd be opening the door to almost infinitely variable quality standards. That would require us to come up with detailed descriptions for each watch. It would likely lead to endless debate about the descriptions, and the fairness of their prices, and more returns. It would suck up a lot more of my time, trying to figure out the price we can rationalize paying for a watch we're buying, and what it would need to sell for.

More problematic, especially if we start buying up older watches - the main point of the Try it Before you Buy it program is the "Before you Buy it" part. The idea is that the Nearly New section would be a decent sampling of models we and our retailers currently offer for sale. There's no point in having a Santa Fe there (just to take one example). That version has been sold out for years, and has the old bracelet, and a with-date movement under a no-date dial, etc. The Nearly New watches should give people an accurate preview of what they'd get if they bought a new NTH, right now.

I hesitate to say this, but here it goes - a lot of WIS complaints are BS. They sound logical, reasonable, and valid, and no doubt those who complain have convinced themselves they're sincere in those complaints, but almost a decade of observation has shown me that many of us manage to avoid recognizing our true thoughts and feelings. Instead, we come up with "reasons" which sound better than whatever the truth may be.

Micros won't be in business to supply replacement parts in 10 years, micros suffer on resale, I can't see one before I buy one, the support isn't as good, etc, etc, etc. Many, if not most, don't hold up under the most cursory logical scrutiny.

The whole Nearly New / Try it Before you Buy it thing was conceived as a way to respond to those who complained about not being able to see a watch in hand before committing to buying it. Even though we already allowed returns, so long as a watch was in as-delivered condition, as a means of addressing that concern, whenever I pointed that out, guys would say they needed to wear a watch a while to know if it was a keeper, or if they'd end up selling it for a loss on the used market, when the watch could no longer be returned, which is what they wanted to avoid.

So, we devised a way to address that scenario - buy one of the Nearly New watches, keep it up to 30 days (or even 60, in anticipation of someone saying 30 isn't long enough), and if you don't like it, you can return it, even though you've worn it, subject to its condition being substantially the same as when we shipped it, and your acceptance of a 90% (or 80%) refund of the purchase price.

But to date, very few have taken us up on that opportunity. 6 out of 7 Nearly New watches have been kept, not returned.

Of those 5 watches which have been returned - only one was returned by someone intending to replace it with a new watch (which was and is the entire point here). Per the terms of our program, he got a 100% refund, because he bought a new NTH.

Three guys returned the watches right away - the one last week, whose wife bought him a different watch, another guy who got it and immediately contacted us to say the quality wasn't what he was expecting from "Nearly New", and one other, about whom I don't have any notes, and can't find any email exchange, but the delivery and refund dates suggest he returned it immediately. All three received 100% refunds, because it seemed the right thing to do.

There's only been one guy who wanted to return the watch after having it for some time, without intending to buy a new one, who therefore paid the 10% "rent".

It seems like most people find value in the program as a means to get a used watch in mint condition, and very few (about 1 in 20) find value in the opportunity to test-drive one of our watches.

EDIT/PS - in case anyone is trying to do the math, here are the actual numbers. We've sold 37 nearly new watches. 32 were kept. The 5 described above were returned. It's not exactly 6/7 & 1/7. It's 86.5% & 13.5%, if we want to be exact.

The bottom line is that only 2 of those 5 guys took advantage of the program as it was meant to be used - the guy who returned a watch intending to buy a new one, and the guy who returned a watch after having it long enough to decide it wasn't for him.

EDIT 2 - and actually, that one guy who bought the new one - he wanted a with-date, but the nearly-new was a no-date. Point being, he didn't buy the nearly new as a way to "see if I like it". He bought it intending to keep it.

Everyone else (32 peeps) either kept the watch, or (3 peeps) knew immediately on delivery they wanted to return it (hence, they never "test-drove" the watch).

So much for "I wish I could see the watch in hand before committing to buying it, in case I don't like it" as a reason not to buy. One out of 37 isn't very strong proof that's a legit complaint.

Or, then again, maybe it is. I don't know. Maybe it's as valid as anything else WIS say, even if it's only true for 2.7% (1 in 37).


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

WizardofWatch said:


> I know this is a few days old and maybe somebody already covered it - how about changing it to a sort of rent-a-watch program? You put down a deposit for a watch. And then you get back a predetermined percentage depending on how long you kept the watch. Keep a limit to the "rent" time. As in, if you keep the watch longer than 8 weeks, you get nothing back.
> I am sure I am missing something here. But just a suggestion.


Interesting idea. Practical viability might be a bit of a headache, since "shipping / delivery time" could be a source of major arguments. People who return a watch for a refund (or otherwise named function for doing "OI GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK") are likely already disgruntled, and therefore more likely to argue and needle for every single extra piece they may be eligible for. Opening the possibility for disagreements on the amount of money being moved will, imo, lead to both sides being significantly less gruntled in the end.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Twehttam said:


> Have you reached out to the seller who has a Santa Fe listed on WUS? They don't pop up often&#8230;


I did but apparently they want to be contacted by an app or something; one I'm not familiar with. No response to my messages.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I did but apparently they want to be contacted by an app or something; one I'm not familiar with. No response to my messages.


Whatsapp.

I use it to talk to my overseas retailers and vendors. It's a fairly easy to use app, with one big exception.

In order to contact someone through the app, you must first add them to your phone's contacts, then the app must be able to "see" that. In my experience, for whatever reason, the app never works correctly on my phone (at least, it didn't on my last phone, not sure about my current one). As a result, I end up telling anyone who wants to use it with me to add me to their contacts, rather than the other way around.

Which, of course, you can't do with the seller in this case, if he isn't responding to your other attempts to reach him, or if you don't want to provide him with your mobile number.


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## JLittle (Nov 7, 2020)

docvail said:


> We didn't remove you. We haven't removed anyone recently.
> 
> Are you an iOS user?


Not that I know of.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLittle said:


> Not that I know of.


Well, if you're not an apple user, email us at customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com, and we'll look into it.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> The bottom line is that only 2 of those 5 guys took advantage of the program as it was meant to be used - the guy who returned a watch intending to buy a new one, and the guy who returned a watch after having it long enough to decide it wasn't for him.
> 
> EDIT 2 - and actually, that one guy who bought the new one - he wanted a with-date, but the nearly-new was a no-date. Point being, he didn't buy the nearly new as a way to "see if I like it". He bought it intending to keep it.
> 
> ...


I'd argue you have at least 5 in 37 who needed to see the watch in hand before committing. It's just that 3 of them knew immediately upon seeing it in hand that they didn't want to commit. But it took seeing it in hand to know for sure.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I'd argue you have at least 5 in 37 who needed to see the watch in hand before committing. It's just that 3 of them knew immediately upon seeing it in hand that they didn't want to commit. But it took seeing it in hand to know for sure.


I'd argue the other way, given the facts of each of those 5 returns...

1. One guy bought a no-date Thresher, clearly intending to keep it. He only returned it when he realized he absolutely needed a date function, and we didn't have a with-date available as Nearly New.

2. One guy immediately wanted to return the watch, his primary concern being that the date numbers weren't perfectly centered within the date window (something unrelated to it being new or used). He said he was fine with the watch's condition vs its price, otherwise.

He didn't say anything to indicate he didn't think the watch's quality was otherwise on par with its price, or that it was just too small for him, or too big, or anything else which may have kept it from being a keeper. No mention of anything someone might have feared, pre-purchase (it's too small, too big, not nice enough, etc). All the facts point to his intention to keep the watch, were it not for the imperfect date alignment.

3. One guy only returned the watch because his wife surprised him with another purchase. He clearly intended to keep the watch otherwise, especially given the exchange we had about all of it.

4. One guy - I literally can't find any email exchange with him, and for some reason, I didn't add any note to the order record when I processed the refund.

But, the fact that there's no email exchange, and the fact that I issued a 100% refund, and the dates of delivery (10/22) and refund (10/25) suggest he simply returned it immediately (five days from delivery to refund is about right for return shipping, Dan's inspection on arrival, and my processing the refund).

I suppose one could argue that he wanted to see the watch in hand first, and immediately knew it wasn't for him, but we'll never know, unless he steps forward to tell us.

It was his one and only purchase in our store, so I can't claim he's since bought another of our watches, as proof that he didn't return the first watch because he didn't like it. It's possible he did buy one, but from one of our retailers, not from me.

It's also just as possible that he returned the watch because he purchased a different one, used, for a better price, and was happy with it. There are any number of possible explanations, aside from needing to see the watch in hand before committing.

5. One guy received the watch, and contacted us to return it a week later. When we inquired for a reason, he said "There is nothing wrong with the watch. It was just not what I expected."

That doesn't sound like a guy who wasn't sure he'd like a watch before he purchased it, and wanted to see it first. That sounds like a guy who was sure, and made a purchase with the intention to keep the watch, but for some reason, what he got is something different than what he expected, so his mind changed.

But, I suppose one could argue that he was in fact the prototypical use-case of the guy who really did need to see and wear the watch first. Perhaps he did have some pre-purchase fear he wouldn't like the watch, and lo and behold, he didn't.

Those are the full facts on the 5 returns. Not a single one is absolutely certain to be a guy who needed to see the watch first, in case he didn't like it. At most, there was one, maybe two, but we can't be sure.

The other 32 - the guys who kept the watches - I didn't talk to all of them, but I talked to some, and I recognize some of the other names. There are some repeat customers in there. I know some were just happy to get a watch that was basically "new", but for 10% less. One guy had bought a BVB new, sold it, bought a Tudor BB58, sold it, and was re-buying the BVB, nearly new, because that's all that was available at the time.

If nothing else, it seems that if any of them were truly concerned they wouldn't like the watch before they bought it, that fear was proven to be unfounded, as evidenced by the fact they kept the watches.

That's really the main point here. When guys say "I really need to see it in hand first", I'm skeptical.

I want to start an interrogation - how many watches have you purchased online, how many of those did you end up not keeping, how many have you purchased after seeing them in hand, how many of those did you end up not keeping, do you also insist on seeing all your other purchases in hand first, or are you willing to buy most other items online, or even if you buy in a store, the item is concealed within a box, such that you really don't have any more ability to discern if you'll like it once you get it home (etc, etc, etc)?

My suspicion remains - I think most aren't truly worried, or if they are, the truth is that their fear is a reluctant acknowledgment of their own fickle nature as collectors, and it really has nothing to do with the watch being sold online or in an AD.

The bottom line - if someone balks at buying an NTH, because they "fear" they won't like it after wearing it, which would prevent us from accepting a return for refund, we have a solution. If we're to believe that's a widespread and sincerely-felt fear, it seems odd that we've had so few (zero, to be precise) people actually return the watches, saying "I just didn't bond with it (as feared)" as a reason for the return.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Pretty bad crash. Shut down all traffic - 3 lanes going in either direction - and brought out not one but two traffic-copters.
> 
> I didn't move my car an inch for half an hour, on the hottest day of the year so far. It was 96 degrees, with no shade in sight.
> 
> I was seriously scared I'd run out of gas, my car would overheat, or I'd have to pee.


You didn't move your car for half an hour and that's the best wrist pic you could get of that beauty???


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Orthos on NTH rubber. First time off of the OE bracelet ever (6 years maybe?). This is much better for my summer wear needs!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> You didn't move your car for half an hour and that's the best wrist pic you could get of that beauty???


I could have been there all day. My pics weren't likely to improve. The reflection from the screen protector on my phone, combined with my less-than-perfect eyesight, make most of my outdoor shots turn out not great.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Orthos on NTH rubber. First time off of the OE bracelet ever (6 years maybe?). This is much better for my summer wear needs!!
> 
> View attachment 15970886


Speaking of bad pics - another Bill Jones School of Photography grad here, obviously.

Kinda surprised you didn't go for the orange strap. Seems like a natural.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Try before you buy program. Actually it sounds like better marketing than anything else. Answers that question about needed to see it in person, _and_ confirms that most who get a chance to try them out, keep them.

It's kind of funny, because it seems like anyone spending any time around here - buying and flipping watches - is essentially doing the same thing. Trying a watch out, and getting rid of it, if it turns out not to be all that, in person. I do understand the difference, and to some it might matter that there's a company standing behind the practice with rules in place, and only the hassle of a return vs. an actual sale.

But seriously, I bought my first Scorpene at a used price off f29 where I knew I wouldn't lose much, if it turned out that I didn't like it. And even still, I ended up flipping it for what I paid to part-fund a different NTH new release... which was then subsequently sold to fund the Scorpene Nomad. Not sure, but I think it was part of the first run to hit the Try Before You Buy page, an Amphion Commando.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I hate summer.

Ten minutes ago, I heard a small explosion, very close to me, as I was working at my desk.

My office is half our garage. There's a small A/C unit in the wall, which vents into the other half.

Apparently it's so hot next to that vent that a pressurized can of spray insulation exploded, literally covering everything in the garage in hot, sticky foam.

The wall, the floor, my kid's bike, our leaf blower, all the other $hlt my wife had sitting in front of the AC unit and the shelf that can was on... it's everywhere.






























This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Aw damn, that stuff is a mess. Sticks like glue, basically un-possible to remove. Your kid is going to need to pay special attention to cleaning gunk off the brake rotors, chain, and derailleurs...

Not sure what kind of mood bike shops are in your way, but if you want to get a chuckle from a mechanic (or a powerful FU glare), bring it in and say, "My kid was just riding along and this happened to it - is it covered under warranty?"


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Speaking of bad pics - another Bill Jones School of Photography grad here, obviously.
> 
> Kinda surprised you didn't go for the orange strap. Seems like a natural.


Yeah, the light in my "office" is rubbish. I could install a better one, but that would require avoidable effort

I somehow completely overlooked the orange. Will have one ordered soon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Try before you buy program. Actually it sounds like better marketing than anything else. Answers that question about needed to see it in person, _and_ confirms that most who get a chance to try them out, keep them.
> 
> It's kind of funny, because it seems like anyone spending any time around here - buying and flipping watches - is essentially doing the same thing. Trying a watch out, and getting rid of it, if it turns out not to be all that, in person. I do understand the difference, and to some it might matter that there's a company standing behind the practice with rules in place, and only the hassle of a return vs. an actual sale.
> 
> But seriously, I bought my first Scorpene at a used price off f29 where I knew I wouldn't lose much, if it turned out that I didn't like it. And even still, I ended up flipping it for what I paid to part-fund a different NTH new release... which was then subsequently sold to fund the Scorpene Nomad. Not sure, but I think it was part of the first run to hit the Try Before You Buy page, an Amphion Commando.


I think we agree.

Comparing the likely numbers of any / all scenarios, I don't see much advantage in buying new / selling used, or buying used / selling used, when compared to buying Nearly New, especially not when most who buy Nearly New end up keeping the watches, and 4 out of 5 who didn't got 100% refunds.

Scenario A - the dude keeps the watch. He basically got a watch you'd never know wasn't new, but for the lack of plastic covers on it, for 10% less than the new price.

Scenario B - the dude returns the watch immediately, and we give him a 100% refund anyway, or at worst, he gets 90% of his purchase price back (no one's returned one after 30 days, when the refund would only be 80%). That 10% is likely to be less than he'd lose if he sold a new or used watch, not just in percentage terms, but in actual dollars.

If we sell a $700 (new) watch for $630 nearly new, and the guy who returns it receives $567 back, he's out $63. Most peeps would lose more than that selling a used $700 watch, on their own. And it certainly wouldn't be as effortless and low-risk as buying (or returning) one of the nearly new pieces.

Can peeps sometimes make out better buying used / selling used? Sure, if you're lucky, or good, and the timing works out, etc. I'm sure I could have flipped the BVB I bought for $500 for at least that much. But no doubt the vast majority of those who sell a watch, whether it was purchased new or used, end up selling it for a loss, and probably more than 10%.

I think it is good marketing. I also think it's just what I said - a viable alternative to buying and selling used, for anyone who'd rather not deal with the headaches the used market frequently entails, for both buyers and sellers.

With a few dozen watches sold that way, in less than 18 months, with pretty minimal effort and time spent by me, it feels like a good business decision.


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> Yeah, the light in my "office" is rubbish. I could install a better one, but that would require avoidable effort
> 
> I somehow completely overlooked the orange. Will have one ordered soon.


You know Doc just sold another orange strap there right? You walked right into it. Surgeon gonna cut, Salesman gonna sell


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Aw damn, that stuff is a mess. Sticks like glue, basically un-possible to remove. Your kid is going to need to pay special attention to cleaning gunk off the brake rotors, chain, and derailleurs...
> 
> Not sure what kind of mood bike shops are in your way, but if you want to get a chuckle from a mechanic (or a powerful FU glare), bring it in and say, "My kid was just riding along and this happened to it - is it covered under warranty?"


What I've learned working with this stuff is that it's next to impossible to remove while it's wet. But once it dries, it becomes fairly brittle. Not exactly "easy" to remove, but easier, at least.

I'm not planning to touch any of it until it dries.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> You know Doc just sold another orange strap there right? You walked right into it. Surgeon gonna cut, Salesman gonna sell


I learned from the best.


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I think we agree.
> 
> Comparing the likely numbers of any / all scenarios, I don't see much advantage in buying new / selling used, or buying used / selling used, when compared to buying Nearly New, especially not when most who buy Nearly New end up keeping the watches, and 4 out of 5 who didn't got 100% refunds.
> 
> ...


Its genius marketing. So likely when I finally buy my Swiftsure that I've been pining over for months, it'll be nearly new from you. Small "discount" but mostly because im buying it from the owner. If anything is off at all, I have him backing it up. He is likely to full refund as he has in most cases if he agrees with reason but worse case scenario is I just don't like it and instead of worrying about scams when I try to sell, I send it back for most of my money or buy a new one for full refund. Really, really smart.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of those straps...

We're down to just 2 of the 20mm orange. I didn't order very many, because I figured they really only went with the Barracuda Polar White. When they sell out, I'm not sure when or if we'll order more.

We're also down to just 3 of the 22mm black with the blue stripe. There again, since the blue stripe doesn't exactly match the blue we used for the 2K1's, I figured they'd be purchased by guys who had a blue DevilRay, but also figured the plain black would sell better, so I didn't order too many. And again, not sure when or if we'll order more, when they sell out.

Those 2 straps are from the same vendor, whose prices are higher (like, 50% higher than what I paid for the black and the blue 20mm straps). Since I don't think I can sell the straps for $67.50, I won't be in any rush to re-order.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

HammyMan37 said:


> You know Doc just sold another orange strap there right? You walked right into it. Surgeon gonna cut, Salesman gonna sell


Truth


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


I bet this is one of the few times that sig doesn't actually apply!  That sucks!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> Its genius marketing. So likely when I finally buy my Swiftsure that I've been pining over for months, it'll be nearly new from you. Small "discount" but mostly because im buying it from the owner. If anything is off at all, I have him backing it up. He is likely to full refund as he has in most cases if he agrees with reason but worse case scenario is I just don't like it and instead of worrying about scams when I try to sell, I send it back for most of my money or buy a new one for full refund. Really, really smart.


Which Swiftsure? If you're looking at the white, there's only 1 white available in the Nearly New. A no-date.

Other than that 1 piece, the no-dates are sold out in the USA, and there are only 2 with-dates here, both new, at Island Watches.

The only other no-dates, a grand total of 3 pieces, all new, are in the EU (Serious), the UK (Watch Gecko), and Hong Kong (the Watchdrobe).

The only other with-dates - 2 pieces, both new - are in the UK, and NZ (Five:45).

I wouldn't wait too long.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I know how that can feels&#8230;

Also, MY IGLOO!

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> What I've learned working with this stuff is that it's next to impossible to remove while it's wet. But once it dries, it becomes fairly brittle. Not exactly "easy" to remove, but easier, at least.
> 
> I'm not planning to touch any of it until it dries.


Smart man. 
Had you and McConlon quoted, prepared to say let that sh*t dry before you mess with it. Kept reading, sure enough, you have some basic common DIY sense!

I hate spray foam. 
Its handy. But it's also the stuff of the devil.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

captainmorbid said:


> I know how that can feels&#8230;
> 
> Also, MY IGLOO!
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Guess I've been in West Texas too long, didn't even blink. I'm sure the summer (May to September) I spent in Saudi Arabia courtesy of the military and my two years stationed in Phoenix working outdoors on 114 degree summer days don't help. In Phoenix, the entire back window of my 71 Olds 98 shattered from the heat!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Guess I've been in West Texas too long, didn't even blink. I'm sure the summer (May to September) I spent in Saudi Arabia courtesy of the military and my two years stationed in Phoenix working outdoors on 114 degree summer days don't help. In Phoenix, the entire back window of my 71 Olds 98 shattered from the heat!


Fellow Texan here. Every year is the same. We get laughed at during the winter months. Then karma rolls around and everyone who laughed at us flips their proverbial sh*t when summer comes. People dropping dead in their houses with no A/C.

I was born in Mesa, Az., lived up north in Ohio as well as upstate(Rhinebeck) NY. Been in Texas for about 20 years.

Cold/hot. I've lived in both. Acclimated to both. It is what it is.

_But_. I'd rather choose the cold spectrum. I can put damn near as many layers as needed on. Can only take off so many.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Guess I've been in West Texas too long, didn't even blink. I'm sure the summer (May to September) I spent in Saudi Arabia courtesy of the military and my two years stationed in Phoenix working outdoors on 114 degree summer days don't help. In Phoenix, the entire back window of my 71 Olds 98 shattered from the heat!


Well, for us in Texas North, this is about 20 degrees higher than normal for this locale. And it's day 4, with one hot one left. It's quite a thing.

It's truly brutal in the province west of us, and Washington is taking a vicious beating too..

It was too hot to wear a watch today&#8230;

I loved this heat, when I was of a more dense construction, now&#8230;

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Smart man.
> Had you and McConlon quoted, prepared to say let that sh*t dry before you mess with it. Kept reading, sure enough, you have some basic common DIY sense!
> 
> I hate spray foam.
> Its handy. But it's also the stuff of the devil.


Honestly, there's zero reason for us to keep the can around after the first use. The stuff clogs the nozzle, rendering the rest of the can worthless.

We've basically just been keeping the can around in the event we wanted a random explosion in our garage.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

It appears like the (lack of) communication issue I was having with the Santa Fe seller was entirely my doing. Nice guy but in the end, a deal was not reached. The hunt continues.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> It's kind of funny, because it seems like anyone spending any time around here - buying and flipping watches - is essentially doing the same thing. Trying a watch out, and getting rid of it, if it turns out not to be all that, in person.


yep, spot on.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

This will make an excellent Halloween combo&#8230;








&#8230; built-in flashlight dial


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## King_Neptune (Mar 3, 2015)

Certina is A-okay in my book.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Ugh&#8230;date changes times 6. Seeing the appeal of no date!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

qa_ii said:


> Certina is A-okay in my book.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Honestly, there's zero reason for us to keep the can around after the first use. The stuff clogs the nozzle, rendering the rest of the can worthless.
> 
> We've basically just been keeping the can around in the event we wanted a random explosion in our garage.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


This caused me to laugh out loud in a Webex

Only to realize I forgot to mute


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

It arrived today.










This is a Goldilocks size for me. As much as I love the design of the Lorier Neptune it sometimes doesn't quite feel like a sport watch. On the other end I have Glycine, Seiko, and Orient, with 22mm lugs that just make me feel a bit like a kid wearing his dad's clothes. This one seems just right. Still wears nice and thin so it's not clumsy like my SKX which just loves door frames.

I'm a sucker for a fully articulated bracelet and this one feels great. Sizing the bracelet actually got me a little panicked because there's so many options with the half links and tons of micro adjust on the clasp that I just didn't know which way I should go with it. Better to have too many choices than not enough I guess. Screw pins are a bit fiddly but I still prefer those to hammering pins out.

The gilt relief dial had me staring at it through a loupe for a while. Reminds me a bit of when I messed around with chemically etching circuit boards back in the day. It just looks flat like the black and gold just blend together. Pics really don't do it justice.

DLC steel bezel insert is a neat idea that's done well. Sapphire is clear and not glarey. Lume is spectacular.

Yeah&#8230; definitely worth the splurge.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

MrDisco99 said:


> It arrived today.
> 
> View attachment 15972375
> 
> ...


Well said! I have this as well and one of the NTHs that I did not mess with regarding bezel lol.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH Odin today.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> It arrived today.
> 
> View attachment 15972375
> 
> ...


I'm happy if you're happy.

Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Update on the v.2 Subs.

My best guess - they'll be available to buy by mid-July.

My vendor told me they'd have them ready to ship to us by the 6th. Add a day or two, because delays, another 2-3 for shipping and clearing customs, another 2-3 for QC and shipping to our retailers, another 2-3 for them to receive them...lemme see here, that's...carry the 3...yeah, mid-July-ish, sometime between the 14th and 16th seems about the right ballpark.

Could be a day or two sooner. Could be a day or two later. Don't everyone start asking me on the 12th if they're available yet, or start wringing hands if they're not available by the 16th. I'm doing my best to predict future events over which I have no control whatsoever.

As an aside, and FWIW...

In addition to the _MUCH_ higher shipping costs we've been seeing in the last year, we're now also seeing longer customs delays recently. Kaj from Serious told me he's seen it too, in the EU. I was talking to the owner of a different business, based locally, and he's seeing similar delays / shortages in his supply chain, which is purely domestic (just within the US).

I don't know if it's fuel costs, a labor shortage, people playing silly games, or what, but I'm seeing or hearing about it in almost every sector, and not just here in the US.

I'm not saying we'll be raising prices on future releases (beyond the DevilRays, which will be $550). But I'm not saying there won't be price increases, either. For now, this first release of v.2 Subs will remain priced at $700 ($725 on BOR). Beyond this coming release and the DevilRays, I don't know what's going to happen.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Update on the v.2 Subs.
> 
> My best guess - they'll be available to buy by mid-July.
> 
> ...


I saw on another post on IG there's new tariffs in the EU. Not sure if it's related.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Well if we're all posting shots...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone who's been looking high-and-low for a Cointreau Antilles - Watch Gauge just got a few more in. Including those 4-5 pieces, there are only 7 left, the other 2 being in Hong Kong, and New Zealand.









Antilles Cointreau


*I sold out of my Antilles Cointreau but I have 5 more coming sometime in July. If you want one of them, join the waiting list for them!A different sort of diver. The NTH Tropics were inspired by the compressor-case diving watches which proliferated from the late '50's to mid '70's - marvels of...




watchgauge.com


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I think we agree.
> 
> Comparing the likely numbers of any / all scenarios, I don't see much advantage in buying new / selling used, or buying used / selling used, when compared to buying Nearly New, especially not when most who buy Nearly New end up keeping the watches, and 4 out of 5 who didn't got 100% refunds.
> 
> ...


I love that you offer the nearly new. I saw the swiftsure blue after i bought my boldr odyssey 45 in blue and i gotta try it out. I love the mix of finishing and the colors and the steel bezel and such. And the details look finished all the way, like the way the braelet meets the case, the depth adds to the detail and it just looks better cause its just done better. My odyssey is well done but that area is shallow, the cuts for detail are shallow for style and they continue the look of the links of the bracelet but as you look closer you can see its not the same. Things like that and the brushed case sides with polished bevels is very nice and these details together add up and i cant wait to see it in person

I love getting something like this that is in excellent near new shape for $100 less. If you still have one used on the site in the next month or so when this bonus pays out im ordering it. If not then ill just get it new.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Boom.
> 
> View attachment 15974511
> 
> ...


I had my Swiftsure on this morning. Until FedEx came a knocking with a package from zee Germans.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I had my Swiftsure on this morning. Until FedEx came a knocking with a package from zee Germans.
> View attachment 15974532


Nice!

I like Tourby. They seem like an under-rated brand.


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> Nice!
> 
> I like Tourby. They seem like an under-rated brand.


Huge Tourby fan. I've had a Lawless 40mm blue for close to a year now and it's a lot of watch for the money.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

NS1 said:


> Huge Tourby fan. I've had a Lawless 40mm blue for close to a year now and it's a lot of watch for the money.


I'm a fan of the Lawless as well. But I _really _wanted a hand winder.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

If Les Paul made a watch, I'm guessing it would look something like this&#8230;









Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> I'm a fan of the Lawless as well. But I _really _wanted a hand winder.
> View attachment 15975050


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Boom.
> 
> View attachment 15974511
> 
> ...


Back at ya&#8230;


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

This stuff works a treat.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Always my travel companion when a beach is involved... This trip to southwest Florida is no exception.
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

If it doesn't stop raining in West Texas, I'm going to NEED a dive watch!


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Not sure if these photos are even any good because it's too bright to see my phone screen but enjoying taking pics of this blue dial...






























Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

3WR said:


> This stuff works a treat.


I was sold on the Swiftsure but now I'm leaning towards lightly modding the Nazario

Looks badass


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I had my Swiftsure on this morning. Until FedEx came a knocking with a package from zee Germans.
> View attachment 15974532


That's freaking awesome!

Lovely choice of dial, colour, and hands. What is needed is some more pictures. Top, sides, movement, and close ups, etc. Please.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

HammyMan37 said:


> I was sold on the Swiftsure but now I'm leaning towards lightly modding the Azario
> 
> Looks badass


Or....
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Speaking of bad pics - another Bill Jones School of Photography grad here, obviously.
> 
> Kinda surprised you didn't go for the orange strap. Seems like a natural.


I had Bill take more pics for me

Immediately after walking into the muggy f)&$ing out










Then I wiped off the condensation 









Then I realized I forgot to set it and corrected LOL










It made a reflection that caught my eye. WUS needs a "fun reflections" thread, but I do not want to start it


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Or....
> View attachment 15976602
> View attachment 15976604
> 
> ...


Ive never dug the Tikuna. Pretty much the only one i don't love. I think its the lines on the dial. Just not for me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Eye-twitch moment earlier today...

My in-laws were visiting. I've given my father-in-law one of the watches I've made, a Spectre. But I never see him wearing it. My wife says it's because he says it's "too nice", but I suspect it's because it's an automatic, and he doesn't feel like messing with setting the time.

Anyway...today he was wearing an over-size, two-tone Submariner homage, 3-hander, but with a GMT bezel. 

GMT bezels on 3-hand watches kind of drives me up the wall. On an over-sized, two-tone watch, it's even worse. Knowing the person wearing it actually has a decent watch at home, that I gave him? Total eye-twitch.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

HammyMan37 said:


> I was sold on the Swiftsure but now I'm leaning towards lightly modding the Azario
> 
> Looks badass




The obvious solution is to get both. One of each case. Also, the Swiftsure dial fills in the 3-6-9 the Cali turns its nose up at.

Besides the 3-6-9 thing and the obvious goofball mix of Romans/Arabics, I think the Cali 6 o'clock marker being horizontal is an interesting twist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Or....
> View attachment 15976602
> View attachment 15976604
> 
> ...


If I could snap my fingers and turn my blue into a ghost, I might go for that.

Or I might use the watch magic to see how the white hands looked in the blue. Or the Ghost's black insert.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ot1S (Apr 18, 2018)

.....Is anyone else hoping for a destro version of the Nacken with crown guards??????
...........Or am I the only one 🤔......


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ot1S said:


> .....Is anyone else hoping for a destro version of the Nacken with crown guards??????
> ...........Or am I the only one 🤔......


I'd rather get a 22mm Beads of Poop for my Swifty.

But you know... MOQs and all that.


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

Ot1S said:


> .....Is anyone else hoping for a destro version of the Nacken with crown guards??????
> ...........Or am I the only one 🤔......


Better get working on wings for pigs.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Just because&#8230;because, because, because, because, because&#8230;because of the wonderful military assignment the Azores was&#8230;in 1995 ? ? ?


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

My Nearly New/Try Before You Buy/Certified Pre-owned/Doc Refurbished Bahia arrived late last week while I was on the road for work. Got home yesterday, opened the box last night and put it on the rubber strap. WOW!










The obligatory wrist shot...










Coincidence or luck that the date wheel happened to be on "6" this morning??


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bogray57 said:


> My Nearly New/Try Before You Buy/Certified Pre-owned/Doc Refurbished Bahia arrived late last week while I was on the road for work. Got home yesterday, opened the box last night and put it on the rubber strap. WOW!
> 
> View attachment 15981576
> 
> ...


But did you read the terms of the program???

Also - wouldn't coincidence and luck be the same thing?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I hope everyone in or from the US enjoyed a safe 4th. In the days following the holiday, I'm always anticipating stories of fireworks shenanigans gone wrong, but thankfully, it's been a long time since I've heard any.

If you're not from or in the US, then I hope you enjoyed "Sunday".

For my part, my wife and I enjoyed a day and evening with friends. One of her co-workers has rented a house at the Jersey Shore for two months (North Brigantine, 7th street, for anyone curious), where we partied all day and night, and recuperated yesterday. We limited our dangerous activities to day-drinking, and left others to mess about with incendiary devices.

This was the first 4th since my sons were born that we didn't do anything "family oriented". My 15 year old is visiting North Carolina's Outer Banks with friends, and my 19 year old was working. I forgot how enjoyable it can be to simply be somewhere, with zero responsibilities.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I can’t remember where I read this but maybe it can help.

Luck is when something randomly happens for or against us. Coincidence is when two or more related events are randomly joined together.

both your girlfriends get in their cars to drive over to your house at the exact same time… coincidence. One of their cars wont start… Luck.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I hope everyone in or from the US enjoyed a safe 4th. In the days following the holiday, I'm always anticipating stories of fireworks shenanigans gone wrong, but thankfully, it's been a long time since I've heard any.
> 
> If you're not from or in the US, then I hope you enjoyed "Sunday".
> 
> ...


"Being somewhere (nice), zero responsibilities" 👍

Most British people have no idea what the 4th of July signifies to Americans and how important it is...🤦‍♂️ sigh...
But I'm happy for you guys. Glad you had a relaxing 4th 😊


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I hope everyone in or from the US enjoyed a safe 4th. In the days following the holiday, I'm always anticipating stories of fireworks shenanigans gone wrong, but thankfully, it's been a long time since I've heard any.
> 
> If you're not from or in the US, then I hope you enjoyed "Sunday".
> 
> ...


Mrs-ish mconlonx works at the local Navy Yard - this year, they were permitted to bring guests on-base to watch fireworks across the river estuary from a larger NH city.

It's also where a larger USCG ship was docked, and one highlight was at sunset when they lowered the US flag, and everyone along shore stood and either removed their cover or held hand over heart.

Best part of it was listening to other peoples' kids, all hyped up for the fireworks. It was a great show, and I pity those parents returning home after 10pm and trying to get those wired-awake kids in bed for the night...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> &#8230;and everyone along shore stood and either removed their cover or held hand over heart.


Damned skippy! Folks that appreciate their Nation&#8230;


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

4th was great! Spent time in the pool with the kiddo and threw a pork shoulder in the smoker. I also received this beauty last week and while It's not an NTH I wanted to share with you guys.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

bogray57 said:


> My Nearly New/Try Before You Buy/Certified Pre-owned/Doc Refurbished Bahia arrived late last week while I was on the road for work. Got home yesterday, opened the box last night and put it on the rubber strap. WOW!
> 
> View attachment 15981576
> 
> ...


Congrats on a great pickup. Out of the ten different subs to pass across my wrist (one SKU twice), I'm amazed the Bahia has not been one of them&#8230; yet


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Just because it's Tuesday&#8230;and I managed to get my dark brown crocodile band on! Sun wasn't helping ?. Plus looks like thickness of the band will require some break in time to account for wrist curvature&#8230;


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I hope everyone in or from the US enjoyed a safe 4th. In the days following the holiday, I'm always anticipating stories of fireworks shenanigans gone wrong, but thankfully, it's been a long time since I've heard any.
> 
> If you're not from or in the US, then I hope you enjoyed "Sunday".
> 
> ...


Thats awesome! We just got back from our beach trailer in the Rehoboth area. here is a nice sunset pic i took of my 3 boys from out front of our trailer.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Looks beautiful.


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> But did you read the terms of the program???
> 
> Also - wouldn't coincidence and luck be the same thing?


Planning to return the Bahia in 65 days, petulantly demand a full refund PLUS interest and keep the box and bracelet.

Luck is the meeting of preparation and opportunity. Coincidence = synchronicity...the state of two or more events occurring at the same time. Or so I've been told.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Thats awesome! We just got back from our beach trailer in the Rehoboth area. here is a nice sunset pic i took of my 3 boys from out front of our trailer.


Nice!

I have an aunt & uncle with a place not far from there, in Bethany Beach. We've visited a bunch of times. My wife and I were just saying we need to get down there again this summer, but I do not enjoy that traffic around Rehoboth, at all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone looking for a v.1 DevilRay?









FS: NTH Devil Ray - white - 1. Series - Top condition


Hi, offering the wonderfull Devil Ray. It is from the first batch with ST-P movement and the much more solid Steel bracelet. It is in wonderful condition and comes as full set. At the moment is a Crepas Nato Split mounted (100$) which is included. Price: 470$ shipping included, PayPal fees...




www.watchuseek.com


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

Seriously though, I'm curious about the Bahia name...I get that the subs are named for subs. I was just in Manitowoc, WI a couple of weeks ago and learned some of the history of the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Co and the subs that were built there. Searching the Webz I see two Bahia's that served in the Brazilian Navy, following their service in the USN. One was a Balao class sub, USS Plaice (SS-390), the other a Tench class boat--USS Grampus (SS-523). There was also a Brazilian cruiser Bahia.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bogray57 said:


> Seriously though, I'm curious about the Bahia name...I get that the subs are named for subs. I was just in Manitowoc, WI a couple of weeks ago and learned some of the history of the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Co and the subs that were built there. Searching the Webz I see two Bahia's that served in the Brazilian Navy, following their service in the USN. One was a Balao class sub, USS Plaice (SS-390), the other a Tench class boat--USS Grampus (SS-523). There was also a Brazilian cruiser Bahia.


Is there a question in there?


----------



## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

Which one is the watch named for? Or is it something else entirely?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

List of submarine classes - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org














"Bahia" sounded better than "Guppy".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bogray57 said:


> Which one is the watch named for? Or is it something else entirely?


See post above.

With the exception of the Carolina and the Catalina (which were named by others), all the NTH Subs and 2K1's are named after a class of submarine, used by some country's navy, at some time, somewhere in the world.

I don't really think about the names very much, or do a lot of research into their histories. I mostly just scan the list looking for names that jump out at me, and don't seem like they'd be hard for most English-speakers to pronounce.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Nice!
> 
> I have an aunt & uncle with a place not far from there, in Bethany Beach. We've visited a bunch of times. My wife and I were just saying we need to get down there again this summer, but I do not enjoy that traffic around Rehoboth, at all.


Yeah its getting disgusting down there. our place is off of Rt. 1 then down Rt24, then on long neck road. the amount of new developments that have popped up on Rt24 in the past 2 years is mind blowing! all that beautiful farm land that was part of the charm of the area is completely gone! now the level of crowd and traffic in the Rehoboth area is staggering. We couldnt get to the beach on the 4th, the amount of cars made it impossible, there wasnt parking for miles for the beach. good thing our resort has its own pool, and marina.


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> "Bahia" sounded better than "Guppy".


Or "Grampus".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bogray57 said:


> Or "Grampus".


Indeed.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, GUPPY was an acronym. Actually, the program was GUPP but we like pronounce our acronyms. Or some say that the Y could stand for Yield since the purpose of GUPP was to increase the endurance of the submarine while submerged. That is, increase the capability of existing systems by increasing electrical equipment efficiency, underwater hydrodynamic performance, and battery reliability and capacity. But yes, a terrible name for a submarine. If there was one.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Wednesday Wednesday&#8230;


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I would totally rock a "Guppy."

Then again, I was disappionted to find out that if I order an AgeGirl watch offAliX, I will instead receive a Fauxlex...


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Still feeling the Barracuda. So far it's only done desk diving. I'll get it in the pool soon enough.

It wants a Nacken Modern Blue for a little brother.


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Thought it was Tuesday, realized it's Wednesday. Whatever! ?


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Weird questions...

1. When did the 90S5 movement replace the 9015 in the no date subs?

2. When was the clasp upgraded to the bigger one with more micro adjust?

Just trying to get an idea of how old my BVB is.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Weird questions...
> 
> 1. When did the 90S5 movement replace the 9015 in the no date subs?
> 
> ...


1. Early-mid 2019 (I think, might have been earlier, or later). I'd have to dig through my records to know for sure.

2. November 2018 release.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Weird questions...
> 
> 1. When did the 90S5 movement replace the 9015 in the no date subs?
> 
> ...


The BVB wad first produced in January 2019, if it helps. So it's no more than 2.5 years old, at most.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> Nice!
> 
> I have an aunt & uncle with a place not far from there, in Bethany Beach. We've visited a bunch of times. My wife and I were just saying we need to get down there again this summer, but I do not enjoy that traffic around Rehoboth, at all.


If you're heading to Bethany, no reason to sit in the Rehoboth traffic... 113 is your best bet. Unless you're craving a Nicoboli... In that case, traffic it is.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> If you're heading to Bethany, no reason to sit in the Rehoboth traffic... 113 is your best bet. Unless you're craving a Nicoboli... In that case, traffic it is.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I'll have to keep that in mind. Usually we let Google Maps or Waze do the directions, but I'm just looking at the map, and I can see why that would have much less beach traffic.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Weird questions...
> 
> 1. When did the 90S5 movement replace the 9015 in the no date subs?
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> 1. Early-mid 2019 (I think, might have been earlier, or later). I'd have to dig through my records to know for sure.
> 
> 2. November 2018 release.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Okay, so....looking at my notes...

I *THINK* we started using the no-date movements at the same time we started using the new clasp - the November 2018 release.

That release was also the first time we started printing pictures of the watch on the box sleeves. HOWEVER, for the Barracuda Vintage Black, which was first produced for the January 2019, we didn't have the box sleeves printed with that image yet, because we did the printing before we knew we were making the BVB.

So, if your box still has the sleeve, but it only has the NTH logo, not a picture of the watch, it's almost certainly from the January 2019 release.

The BVB didn't appear on the box sleeve until the May 2019 release. We also produced that watch, and shipped it with that box, in June of 2019, and July of 2019. Those were the only 2019 release dates.

I'm 96.3% certain we updated the end-links (now recessed below the lugs, with a groove cut into the link on either side of the center-section) for the October 2020 release, which was the first and only release of the BVB in 2020.

Those links of course carried over to the January 2021 release, which was the last release of the BVB with the v.1 case.

So...look at the box sleeve. If it doesn't have a picture of the watch, it is most likely from Jan 2019.

If the box sleeve has the pic, look at the end-links. If it has the older end-links, which sit flush with the lugs, it's almost certainly from May/June/July 2019.

If the sleeve has the pic, and the bracelet has the new end-link, it's almost certainly from October 2020 or Jan 2021.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

He bought my BVB. I don’t remember exactly when it was purchased but if memory serves me correctly it was the end of 2019. Maybe early 2020 but I’m 99% sure it was end of 2019.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> I *THINK* we started using the no-date movements at the same time we started using the new clasp - the November 2018 release.


This one has the newer clasp but the ghost date movement. Still sounds like it's probably one of those first year batches, though...? I don't have the outer box.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fun Facts about no-date Miyota movements (or, "why we didn't start using them until November 2018 - or was it July 2019?")...

The first two microbrands I can remember using the Miyota 90S5 (the no-date, open-heart version of the 9015) were Melbourne (my friend Sujain), who was using it in his Avalon pilot's watch, and Halios (Jason) was planning to use it in the upcoming Seaforth.

The first was Melbourne. Sujain started working on the Avalon model in mid-2014 (it was an early 2015 release), and I remember talking to Jason about the Seaforth over dinner, while we were in Hong Kong for the 2016 show.

I distinctly remember both telling me the 90S5 cost about 2/3 more than the 9015, at that time.

Sujain _needed_ to use it, because the open heart was a prominent feature of the Avalon's design. I remember discussing the Avalon's pricing with him, and saying that I thought the market may not be ready for a $600 watch (on a strap, not a bracelet, with only 5ATM WR), from a microbrand, with "only" a Miyota 9 series inside.










Again, bear in mind, this was late 2014. I was selling the Acionna, with a 9015 in it, for $600, but it had 20 ATM WR, and an internal bezel, and came on a bracelet, and also included a decent enough leather strap. And it wasn't flying out the door.

But Jason didn't *need* to use it, really. He was only interested in it because it was no-date.

I vividly recall listening to Jason talk about how he couldn't stand the idea of having a ghost-date position on the crown, and how using the 90S5 was going to push the price of the watch up to what seemed like an absurd level at the time - more than most watches packing 2824-2's inside, back then.

I think the first Seaforths were $700, even $800, maybe? I may be misremembering. Whatever it was, I remember the price was higher than any other micro with a Miyota 9 inside, ever, and higher than a lot of watches with 2824-2's and SW200's. I remember thinking the market would think it was insanely high.

I thought he was nuts. But I also couldn't help admiring his stubborn determination to make every little detail perfect.

Understand - this was September of 2016. *NOBODY* was online talking about the dreaded "phantom-date-change-position" back then. *NOBODY*. Jason was the first, and at the time, only person talking about it. I truly believe he's single-handedly responsible for the phantom date change becoming every online WIS's favorite pet-peeve.

So...it's September 2016, nobody's talking about phantom date changes yet, and Sujain's Avalon from the year before did indeed turn out to be a tough sell (in his defense, it was co-designed by some Aussie celebrity chef, who insisted on the open-heart concept). Nobody was selling a watch with a 9015 in it for much more than $600.

And here's Jason from Halios, talking about using a movement that would cost him 2/3 more than the with-date equivalent, even more than an SW-200, and selling it for a LOT more than $600, because he just couldn't stand the thought of having a date-change position on the crown.

You can understand why I thought he was nuts.

In fairness, and in retrospect - I think many in the market DID think the Seaforth's original price was insane, UNTIL people saw the Seaforth sold out instantly, and they started selling for more on the secondary market. Credit to Jason for being way ahead of the phantom date change curve, and for proving that even a microbrand watch is more than just the sum of its components and spec sheet.

Even when the 9039 (the slightly less-expensive, non-open-heart, no-date 9015 variant) appeared in early 2018, I wasn't all that interested in using it, because the hands-height is lower than it is on the 9015. If you wanted to make a with-date and no-date version of the same watch, you'd have to order handsets with two different depths, which is a nightmare to keep straight in assembly. You can't tell just by looking at them, and you could ruin the hands trying to measure them.

You still might not even be able to use it, because the hour hand is so low, it might scrape across applied indices. The 9039 is really meant for printed dials, unless you want to use a really short hour hand, or shorter indices, so that the hand doesn't pass over them.

_*EDIT* - looking back through my emails, it appears we decided to start using the 9039 in June 2018, but only with the designs which were no-date only. And I'm not sure if they appeared in the NTH Subs before the November 2018 release. For the designs which had with-date or no-date options, we continued using the 9015 for both._

The price for the 90S5 (which has the same hands-height as the 9015) didn't start coming down until late 2016 / early 2017, but by then, we were planning to use STP1-11's in the v.1 Tropics and v.1 DevilRays. That's where my focus was, at the time.

More critically, we still weren't at the point we are now - with everyone collectively losing their $hlt over a phantom-date-change, so I wasn't willing to pay more to get the 90S5's yet. We just kept using the 9015's in the NTH Subs, even in no-date designs, in order to keep our retail prices down. Every little cost savings helps, ya know?

We basically kept going that way, until the price of the 90S5 came down far enough, and the angry noises about phantom date-changes grew loud enough, that it made sense to at least consider using true no-date movements. I think I saw the writing on the wall by mid-2018, when the cost difference for the 90S5 came down to only a few dollars per unit.

It wasn't early enough to get the 90S5 into the mid-year release, but it was soon enough to get it into the November 2018 release, which was going to be priced higher anyway, because of the new bracelet & clasp, and other cost increases we had (mostly due to quality improvements).

_*EDIT 2* - Apparently I didn't see the writing until May 2019, and the 90S5 didn't start appearing in NTH Subs until the June release (possibly, I'm not certain), but perhaps not until July, or maybe even August. I remember we raised prices again, around that time in 2019, so that would have been a good time for me to consider the more expensive 90S5._

One of the factors that played into the decision was that we foresaw that when and where it was possible, we could balance out the slightly higher cost of the 90S5 by using the slightly lower cost 9039's in any design that will be no-date only, like the Scorpene Blue and Scorpene White. But my vendor more or less insists we use the 90S5 whenever there are applied indices on the dial.

TL;DR - it's all Jason's fault.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> This one has the newer clasp but the ghost date movement. Still sounds like it's probably one of the 2019 batches, though...? I don't have the outer box.


Ugh. This is why I should trust my memory more, rather than digging through old emails...

Okay, so, I was right the first time. I'm looking at an email exchange with my vendor, from May 2019, which appears to be when I upset the apple cart, by asking them to use the 90S5, rather than the 9015.

It appears the earlier discussion I looked at, uhm, earlier, from 2018, was when we started talking about using the 9039, but only in the models which were no-date only. The with date / no-date designs were still using the 9015, at least until we discussed the 90S5 in May 2019.

That exchange we had in May was probably too early for the change to make it into the June 2019 release, which was already in production, but it appears to have happened for the July 2019 release, and it DEFINITELY was in place for the August 2019 release (which didn't include any BVB anyway).

Now I gotta go back and edit my post above...

So...phantom date change in a BVB would most likely be from the January, May, or possibly the June 2019 release, but probably not the July release.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

I bought it used In September 2020 and was told by the previous owner that he purchased it new in late 2019. His memory may have been faulty.



docvail said:


> Uhm...are you sure it has the ghost-date movement?
> 
> It shouldn't. Unless I'm forgetting some release of the BVB that used the 9015. But that's all but impossible here, given the production dates. If it happened, it could only have happened for the January release, and I'm fairly certain it didn't.
> 
> ...


I'd imagine you guys would have noticed a swapped movement when you serviced it for me six months ago&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Seaforth was originally $675 plus $25 shipping to US. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> I bought it used In September 2020 and was told by the previous owner that he purchased it new in late 2019. His memory may have been faulty.
> 
> I'd imagine you guys would have noticed a swapped movement when you serviced it for me six months ago&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


Read my now-edited post, above. I was right, but then I was wrong about when we started using the 90S5 in the BVB's. I confused myself. It wasn't until mid-2019.

We started using the 9039's in mid-2018, but that pre-dated the BVB, and the switch from the 9015 to the 90S5 in the no-date versions of with-date models, which happened mid-2019.

So, the dates line up. If he purchased it new in late 2019, it was from the June or July release, because the January and May releases sold out instantly, and still used the 9015 in the no-date versions.

It was most likely from the June release, which was probably too early for the May decision to start using the 90S5 to make its way into production, rather than the July release, which I'm pretty sure did have the 90S5, not the 9015, in the no-date versions.

I'm fairly certain on all of the above, given the dates of the email exchange about the 90S5 (May 2019), and the file attachments in that exchange, which included models from both the July and August releases.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Doc, your willingness to have these conversations, and dig through your records to satisfy the third owner of your product is why I am literally checking twice a day to see if the V2’s have been released. I know I’ll get an email, but I don’t want to miss out on the first release of the V2 hahaha. You continue to go above and beyond, and I will continue to keep an NTH in my watch box for that reason! Now to just fill that empty spot with a V2!!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Doc, your willingness to have these conversations, and dig through your records to satisfy the third owner of your product is why I am literally checking twice a day to see if the V2's have been released. I know I'll get an email, but I don't want to miss out on the first release of the V2 hahaha. You continue to go above and beyond, and I will continue to keep an NTH in my watch box for that reason! Now to just fill that empty spot with a V2!!!


$hlt, that reminds me. I have a video to upload to YouTube.

BRB...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Doc, your willingness to have these conversations, and dig through your records to satisfy the third owner of your product is why I am literally checking twice a day to see if the V2's have been released. I know I'll get an email, but I don't want to miss out on the first release of the V2 hahaha. You continue to go above and beyond, and I will continue to keep an NTH in my watch box for that reason! Now to just fill that empty spot with a V2!!!


It's not so much that I'm "willing", it's that I legitimately worry that people will say I'm a knob if I don't.

Believe me, I'd love it if no one ever asked a question I couldn't answer with 100% certainty off the top of my head.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

***** Christ just take my money already. I’ll take the one shown in the video please. No date BVB…………………..


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Fun Facts about no-date Miyota movements (or, "why we didn't start using them until November 2018 - or was it July 2019?")...
> 
> The first two microbrands I can remember using the Miyota 90S5 (the no-date, open-heart version of the 9015) were Melbourne (my friend Sujain), who was using it in his Avalon pilot's watch, and Halios (Jason) was planning to use it in the upcoming Seaforth.
> 
> ...


Interesting read! I owned the Avalon, Seaforth, and Acionna back when they were average size....now everyone would complain that they are too big LOL

I also remember when the new Miyotas were hitting the market, and there was so much confusion on difference/benefit because of the obvious cost difference in watches. Many mistakenly assumed they were some next-gen upgraded movement lol

And on the video...I need that watch


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Interesting read! I owned the Avalon, Seaforth, and Acionna back when they were average size....now everyone would complain that they are too big LOL
> 
> I also remember when the new Miyotas were hitting the market, and there was so much confusion on difference/benefit because of the obvious cost difference in watches. Many mistakenly assumed they were some next-gen upgraded movement lol
> 
> And on the video...I need that watch


Well...the Avalon was pretty big, at 45mm. The Acionna was only 40mm, but likely wore a tad larger, due to its case shape, and the internal bezel / all dial look. I'm just looking at some 2017 reviews of the original Seaforth - 40mm.

And also, $650 (fixed bezel) or $675 (rotating bezel) with the 90S5, which just seemed "pure balls" back in 2016-2017.

The main impetus for me to use the STP1-11 in the v.1 Tropics, rather than the 9015, which was the original plan, was that the total production cost was going to push the retail price to a level I feared was "too high" for a watch with "only" a 9015 inside - close to $700 (somewhere around $675, I recall). This was mid-2016, when all the NTH Subs were $600-$625.

I thought we might as well go for an even higher-priced movement, the STP1-11 (because "Swiss"), raise the retail price a little more, and make it the top-of-the-range, "Halo" model for NTH. Boom - $725 v.1 Tropics, on a BOR, with expansion clasp, a tropic strap, and a SWISS movement!!!

That was only a few months before Jason was telling me about his plans for the Seaforth. Within that context, what he was talking about really sounded insane, which is hilarious now, looking back. I mean...$650-$675? Today, 4-5 years later, it's just "normal". Back then, people were balking at $625 for some of the Subs. I thought there was no way a non-Swiss-Made micro could sell any watch with a Miyota 9 series in it for more than $650. I thought you HAD to have a "Swiss" movement, if you were going to charge much more than $600 for the watch.

Again, credit to Jason, and I guess also Steve from Raven, and Deon from Magrette, too. If it wasn't for those guys and their brands, I'm not sure when I would have started seeing my business and the product the way I see it all now. Halios, Magrette and Raven really paved the way for smaller micros to be seen as "premium", even if they're not "Swiss Made".


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Well...the Avalon was pretty big, at 45mm. The Acionna was only 40mm, but likely wore a tad larger, due to it's case shape, and the internal bezel / all dial look. I'm just looking at some 2017 reviews of the original Seaforth - 40mm.
> 
> And also, $650 (fixed bezel) or $675 (rotating bezel) with the 90S5, which just seemed "pure balls" back in 2016-2017.
> 
> ...


I know for me seeing the performance and success of the non-Swiss movements (especially the Miyota vs the Seikos) from those early micros really shifted that stigma, and it is my belief that they did it for the market in total....leading to the mindset shift from Miyota being nothing more than another "non-Swiss" movement to becoming a destination movement within a certain price range.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Thanks for, as usual, giving us a wide open look at your process. That's way more info than I expected or needed, but I now know a lot more about the history of these movements.

So much of running a business is just trying to predict the future. Kudos to Jason for getting it right. The Halios Seaforth was one of those landmark releases that changed the way people look at micro brands.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I know for me seeing the performance and success of the non-Swiss movements (especially the Miyota vs the Seikos) from those early micros really shifted that stigma, and it is my belief that they did it for the market in total....leading to the mindset shift from Miyota being nothing more than another "non-Swiss" movement to becoming a destination movement within a certain price range.


Agreed, and yet, it's obvious that a lot of folks still can't wrap their heads around spending $700, or more, for a watch withOUT a "Swiss" movement in it.

I mean...what's the next "step up", in cost, if not performance? A basic, standard grade SW200?

Even though the 9 series costs less, by every objective measure, it's a better movement, by a country mile. And yet, when you hit a certain price point, so many guys just stop, and can't do anything but balk at the price, and the movement inside, because it isn't "Swiss", and doesn't cost more, even if the cost increase wouldn't bring about better performance, just higher ownership costs.

I don't get it. I don't understand why anyone would want a WORSE movement, that costs MORE to buy, and MORE to maintain, simply because it costs more, which seems like the very definition of circular logic.

"Yes, please charge me more for a watch with a worse movement, which I will need to pay hundreds of dollars to maintain, no less frequently than every 7 years, because it's SWISS, goddamit, and that's what I want. Keep that better-performing, virtually maintenance-free Japanese crap away from me, good sir!"


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

I get hating a cyclops. 
I get hating 2 tone bracelets. 
I get hating stupid-big cases. 
I get hating misaligned bezels. 
And “open heart” - yuck. 
I don’t get hating “phantom” date positions. 

Why give a crap about that? Just ignore it! It’s invisible and hurts nothing and no one. 

Rant over. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> TL;DR - it's all Jason's fault.


Yep. Whole thing is silly, IMO. I have several no-date 9015s and the extra crown position has never bothered me.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Agreed, and yet, it's obvious that a lot of folks still can't wrap their heads around spending $700, or more, for a watch withOUT a "Swiss" movement in it.
> 
> I mean...what's the next "step up", in cost, if not performance? A basic, standard grade SW200?
> 
> ...


100% agree, makes zero sense. I try to tell myself it is the NH35 halo negatively impacting Miyotas....but I realize it is the blind "Swiss is better".

Selfishly I won't complain too much though. As a consumer it keeps quality watches more affordable than they realistically probably should be


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ike2 said:


> I get hating a cyclops.
> I get hating 2 tone bracelets.
> I get hating stupid-big cases.
> I get hating misaligned bezels.
> ...


The "ghost date" is confusing to the uneducated (most people who do not actually care like we do), and it is not uncommon for them to think the watch is broken

"When I try to set it there is this point where it feels like I'm setting something....but nothing happens"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...the v.2's...

I asked my vendor to send me a sample of each of the new versions, so we could get started on photography. Instead of 6, they sent 4. Apparently the Modern Blues need more time to simmer...

It seems that they shipped the next 71 (out of 150) pieces to me yesterday (which makes the total 75, with the 4 photo samples, or, half of what we're expecting).

I'm waiting on them to respond to my most obvious of questions, "when will we get the rest?" My guess is, another week(ish).

Dan will of course get started on the QC as soon as he can, once they start arriving here. But, Dan's working at limited capacity recently, owing to a herniated disk, a surgery for which he's scheduled to have - on the 14th of this month (one week from today). 

Given today's date of the 7th, my earlier estimate of the v.2's being available for purchase around mid-July is starting to look either bang-on, or slightly optimistic.

Given that my vendor hasn't shipped the other half of the order yet, and apparently only got around to plating the Modern Blue bezel inserts a couple weeks ago, my money would be on "slightly optimistic".

My new bestest guess for when they'll be available to purchase - the week of the 18th-24th, but maybe sooner for the Barracuda Vintage Black and Nacken Modern Black.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> I get hating a cyclops.
> I get hating 2 tone bracelets.
> I get hating stupid-big cases.
> I get hating misaligned bezels.
> ...





Avo said:


> Yep. Whole thing is silly, IMO. I have several no-date 9015s and the extra crown position has never bothered me.





Mediocre said:


> The "ghost date" is confusing to the uneducated (most people who do not actually care like we do), and it is not uncommon for them to think the watch is broken
> 
> "When I try to set it there is this point where it feels like I'm setting something....but nothing happens"


It's funny...I started out annoyed by the discussions about it. I thought it was the most anal-retentive, OCD thing anyone could ever complain about.

Part of it was the wide-spread, implied assumption within those discussions, where it was suggested brands were "cheaping out" or cutting corners, by using the 9015 when there were no-date options available.

I got exasperated, trying to explain that the 9039 didn't have the same hands-height, and the 90S5 wasn't a LITTLE more expensive, it used to be A LOT more expensive, for a long time. The movements really WEREN'T interchangeable at the time when phantom date change discussions seemed to be all the rage, and all those accusations were being tossed around.

But even beyond that, I thought, "c'mon. This is silly. For someone who wants a no-date dial, surely this isn't just a reasonable solution, it's the best solution, if we want to keep costs down. How is this even worth complaining about? It's such a small, barely noticeable thing."

All my NTH's are no-dates. Probably 1/3 of them have with-date movements. I never think about it. I'm not sure I even notice it. I know for certain it doesn't bother me.

But now that the 90S5 costs have come down to within a few dollars of the 9015, and we can offset some of that by using the 9039 in other designs, I'm less annoyed by the discussion of it. When there's no major difference in costs, using a with-date movement in a no-date design seems like laziness, whereas before, I was indignant at the mere suggestion brand owners were somehow negligent for doing that.

Funny how our perceptions about something can change over time. What riled me up in 2017-2018, I barely notice in 2020-2021.

It's pretty much the same with the Seiko NH3x. We use the NH35 in the with-dates, or the NH38 in the no-dates. Just like the 90S5, the 38's cost a little more, but can you imagine the hysteria if we charged more for "removing the date"???

Hilarity would surely not ensue.

Instead, we just average the two together, and charge the same amount for both versions. Same with the 9015-90S5-9039.

You all can go and thank the "no phantom date change" crowd for the higher retail prices everyone is paying to have no-date movements as an option. We might be charging a little less if we were just using the 9015.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

PowerChucker said:


> Thats awesome! We just got back from our beach trailer in the Rehoboth area. here is a nice sunset pic i took of my 3 boys from out front of our trailer.
> View attachment 15982296
> 
> View attachment 15982298


Pots Nets?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just went back and re-read, and double-checked everything on those May (24th) 2019 emails. I'm 100% certain now.

The 9015's were used through the June 2019 release. The 90S5 first appeared in the July 2019 release. 

So, a Barracuda Vintage Black, purchased new, anytime after May 2019, but with a 9015 inside, would have been from the June 2019 release, for certain.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Just got off my arse and ordered that orange Orthos strap. It will be a fun summer combo


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I also just re-checked all my no-date NTH's.

Of my 12 NTH watches, 9 have a ghost-date position on the crown (9015 under a no-date dial).

Literally 100% of my Subs. The only no-date movements I have are in my 2 DevilRays, and my Azores.

I literally - not figuratively - never even notice it. That detent is so minimally detectable in the 9015, it actually requires some deliberate effort not to miss it.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The Halios Fairwind is what got me itching for a new watch some months ago. Decided I really wanted a date and wanted a full indexed bezel. I started looking at the other microbrands and revisited NTH. Months later, I bought a Thresher. If those watches sell, I might still get me a grey Fairwind.

I'm extremely, absolutely, terribly annoyed by a no-date watch with a date movement. I understand/understood the price concern but it still bothers/ed me. Now, it seems there's really even less reason not to use the suitable movement.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Have Subs w/ and w/o ghost date. W/ wouldn’t ever stop me from buying. Do prefer and appreciate that w/o became standard. 

Not sure if the V2 case being a touch smaller was something I was aware of. In my head, I’m be considering them the 39mm Subs as the foundation for the propaganda campaign I’ll eventually launch against myself to justify another Sub. Looks sharp in the video. 

Best wishes to Dan. Hope he finds relief. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I'm extremely, absolutely, terribly annoyed by a no-date watch with a date movement. I understand/understood the price concern but it still bothers/ed me. Now, it seems there's really even less reason not to use the suitable movement.


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## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Owning both an NTH sub with a ghost-date and a Seaforth...ghost-date watches don't bother me at all. The only time I would notice is when setting the time so 95% of the time while wearing a ghost-date watch I don't even notice it. Do I prefer a no date watch to not have a ghost-date? Well sure, but not if it were to cost an extra $100 or more. 

When I set the time on my Seaforth I barely notice that it doesn't have that extra click. Sure it makes a cool conversation piece that a watch like that was modified to not include the ghost-date, but it's something only a WIS would care about. Could you imagine how goofy you would look trying to hype up a feature like that to somebody who barely knows anything about watches?

Nothing screams WIS like being slightly annoyed by the extra click you get from pulling out the crown on a no-date watch when setting the time. Not having a ghost-date on a watch is neat, but not even on the same list of features I look for in any watch I think about buying these days.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Read my now-edited post, above. I was right, but then I was wrong about when we started using the 90S5 in the BVB's. I confused myself. It wasn't until mid-2019.
> 
> We started using the 9039's in mid-2018, but that pre-dated the BVB, and the switch from the 9015 to the 90S5 in the no-date versions of with-date models, which happened mid-2019.
> 
> ...


I vaguely recall you having a conversation about these movements with the Carolina design. Then something about the pinion heights were different? You're memory of all this will be far more catalogued than mine on this as all we cared about at the time was what hands we were going to put on the watch dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I vaguely recall you having a conversation about these movements with the Carolina design. Then something about the pinion heights were different? You're memory of all this will be far more catalogued than mine on this as all we cared about at the time was what hands we were going to put on the watch dial.


Indeed - at the time, the 9039 and 90S5 were available, but they have different hands-heights.

I honestly don't remember - does the Carolina have a ghost-date position on the crown? I'd have to go back and re-read the communications on that one, to figure out why, if it does.

I would think I'd have suggested the 9039 for the Carolina, since the dial doesn't have applied markers, but maybe I didn't for some reason.

Might have been difficulty getting the 9039 on short notice, when we already had 9015's on order, which, now that I'm thinking of it, sort of rings a bell.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Indeed - at the time, the 9039 and 90S5 were available, but they have different hands-heights.
> 
> I honestly don't remember - does the Carolina have a ghost-date position on the crown? I'd have to go back and re-read the communications on that one, to figure out why, if it does.
> 
> ...


Yes, the intermediate stem position is there for date setting but it doesn't do anything. Also in the time setting there's no click of a date wheel advancing as the hands pass 12.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Yes, the intermediate stem position is there for date setting but it doesn't do anything. Also in the time setting there's no click of a date wheel advancing as the hands pass 12.


Hmmm...

So, I don't have strong recollection here. I had to look at my emails and order records.

Ordering of the Carolina started on 7 July 2018 (coincidentally, 3 years to the day since we started this no-date discussion). I placed the order for that production run on 15 June, a few weeks earlier. That's when we locked in the mix of 9015's vs. 9039's.

(EDIT - I think. It's possible I ordered the movements earlier, before I locked in the other designs we were producing at the time.)

So, y'all got 9015's, because it was too late to change the movement for the Carolina, which was added to the production mix a month after we'd ordered all the parts and components.

I remember the discussion in the FB group. I vaguely recall I started that group, for the sake of project discussion, in March or April, and by late May or early June, I was pleading with everyone to hurry up and finalize the design, because I needed to start the next production very soon.

As it was with so many things I've brought up during the discussion of various projects, it doesn't tend to work out well when my suggestions / requests are ignored.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Still rocking the Antilles Cointreau. The dial is unbelievable.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I thought it was the most anal-retentive, OCD thing anyone could ever complain about.


Bro... did you even WIS, at that point...?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

HammyMan37 said:


> Pots Nets?


Close! but right across the street at Leisure Point Resort, we are directly across from Pot Nets Creek Side, and down the street from Bay Side and our favorite eating place, Paradise Grill!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> So, I don't have strong recollection here. I had to look at my emails and order records.
> 
> ...


Now looking at some of the project discussion in the FB group...

Up until 21 June 2018, it seems that it was still as yet undecided whether the Carolina would be offered with or without a date, or just one or the other, without any option.

Now looking back at my emails...it looks like all the discussion I had with my vendors about the with-date / no-date versions and the movements we'd need to order took place between 6 June and 11 June.

Since we weren't using the 90S5 yet, any design which might be with-date or no-date would use the 9015, and so, in addition to all the movements I was ordering for the other Subs designs, we ordered 50 (maybe 100, actually) pieces of the 9015 for the Carolina project. The production order - for all the other versions, NOT including the Carolina - was then finalized on 15 June.

On 21 June, ten days after we'd ordered all the movements, and a week after we'd started production, after watching the project debate / discussion drag on since I created the FB group on April 30 (almost 2 months earlier), and seeing that my pleading to hurry up and finish the design was being ignored, I made the executive decision that all the Carolinas would be no-date, based on what seemed to be the preference of most people engaged in the discussion (that topic was debated in a thread started by ***** on 12 June, and was still going on as of 16 June).

Part of the problem here was that to make BOTH no-date and with-date, we'd have to make 100 dials (50 of each), and it didn't look like we'd sell that many watches, so I had to draw a line in the sand, and force the group to have one or the other.

And, part of the reason the date/no-date thing was being debated was on me. In April, I said the dial MOQ would be 20 pieces. But then I went to China in May, had a "come into the light" talk with my vendors, and we agreed I wouldn't order less than 50 pieces per dial version. I made the group aware of this on 7 May.

So, for those who don't like reading or didn't follow all that, this was the timeline...

1. Sometime prior to 30 April, someone in the BSHT proposed NTH should make a BSHT project watch. Knowing (and clearly stating) that I was planning to start our next production in late May or early June, I more or less immediately created a FB group for project discussion, away from WUS.










2. Project details were discussed / debated starting 30 April, through May 7 (when I went to China, and agreed to a 50 piece MOQ on dials), into June, as I pleaded with the project organizers and discussion participants to move things along, and stop asking for things I couldn't easily deliver.

3. Right on _MY_ timetable, I had all the other Subs designs figured out by late May, and was ordering movements in early June (between the 6th and the 11th). Because I still didn't know if the Carolina would be no-date only, with-date only, or if by some miracle we'd sell at least 50 of both, I ordered 50-100 additional pieces of the 9015, knowing that even if we only sold 50, my vendor wouldn't have any problem getting rid of 50 pieces, which wouldn't be as easy to do with the 9039, which needed a slightly longer lead time, and wasn't yet in widespread use, as it had just been announced in April of that year.

4. How many people wanted a no-date versus how many wanted a with date was still being debated between 12 and 16 June. Because I could see we wouldn't get at least 50 people to order a with-date, and another 50 to order a no-date, I made the executive decision they'd all be no-date, but that was on the 21st, a week after we'd started production, in order to meet my dial supplier's MOQ (50 pieces per version), and try to keep to the October delivery timeline. There was zero chance we'd be able to switch to the 9039 at that point.

5. But, because the group didn't finalize all the rest of the Carolina design details until the end of June, we weren't able to finalize all those details with my vendor until July 4th weekend, almost a month after I'd wanted to start production.

6. I had pre-orders set up on the site and ready to go 2 days later, on the 6th. I said we were behind schedule, and therefore I'd keep the pre-order window open for 3 days. As of the 9th, we'd sold 35 (not even 50), and I asked my vendor to start production of 40 pieces, confident 5 more peeps would come along and buy one (5 did). And so, the Carolinas didn't go into production until 10 July, a month later than I'd planned, and thus didn't ship until November 8th, not October, as I'd originally forecasted.

And that's why the Carolina has a ghost-date.

It's also why we had 10 unused dials, which we ended up assembling in early 2020, so 10 more guys could get a Carolina.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

I care so little about a ghost date click on the crown stem that it blows my mind that so many people got crazy upset about that when that wave hit a few years back.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Close! but right across the street at Leisure Point Resort, we are directly across from Pot Nets Creek Side, and down the street from Bay Side and our favorite eating place, Paradise Grill!


It blows my mind the scope of area considered to be Rehoboth these days... Seems like most of Sussex County.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

winstoda said:


> It blows my mind the scope of area considered to be Rehoboth these days... Seems like most of Sussex County.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


honestly its just easier to say Rehoboth because that what we are close to, and not many people know the small outlier towns that surround Rehoboth. if I say Millsboro, i get blank stares, if I just say Rehoboth, then they understand the area im talking about. Sorry if that offends you.
I say im from Philly when talking to people not from this area, but im a couple miles outside philly.. does it really matter? i dont really think so. Philly is the closest recognizable spot near me.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

ConfusedOne said:


> Nothing screams WIS like being slightly annoyed by the extra click you get from pulling out the crown on a no-date watch when setting the time.


I guess I'm not a WIS because I'm much more than slightly annoyed. It's sort of like the NAV button in some of the cheap rental cars I get. You press it and tells you to go to the local service center to purchase the required equipment. It's cheaper to design and manufacture a single switch stack instead of several. It makes sense from a dollar and cents perspective but it's still taking the cheaper way out. I'd rather pay for the more suitable movement from anywhere than a vaunted 'Swiss' movement, though.

I prefer watches with a date complication so it usually doesn't come up that I have to choose. I think the only non-dates I have are the two Silver watches and they have 9039 movements so that was nice. I can say that knowing the SW200-1 in the Halios has been modified makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

ETA: I never knew the ghost date issue was such a big deal on the forums some time or some years ago. This is just something I noticed when I saw some no-date watches had date movements in them. I then wondered how they dealt with the crown position and then realized they don't. That's when my eye would start twitching.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> honestly its just easier to say Rehoboth because that what we are close to, and not many people know the small outlier towns that surround Rehoboth. if I say Millsboro, i get blank stares, if I just say Rehoboth, then they understand the area im talking about. Sorry if that offends you.
> I say im from Philly when talking to people not from this area, but im a couple miles outside philly.. does it really matter? i dont really think so. Philly is the closest recognizable spot near me.


Appreciate the apology but would take more than that to offend me. It's actually a racket by the developers. It's not just Long Neck... Shelbyville is sold as Fenwick Island these days.

No offense...

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

winstoda said:


> Appreciate the apology but would take more than that to offend me. It's actually a racket by the developers. It's not just Long Neck... Shelbyville is sold as Fenwick Island these days.
> 
> No offense...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I hear ya. My parents lived in Long Neck Shores for years, but to the PA and NJ friends and family it was just Rehoboth. and the developers are destroying the Rehoboth/Long Neck area with all these new housing developments!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Chris, you should do a reality show about your company! call it American Micro. produce and post it on YouTube. Id love to watch the behind the scenes of running a watch brand!


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## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

josiahg52 said:


> I guess I'm not a WIS because I'm much more than slightly annoyed. It's sort of like the NAV button in some of the cheap rental cars I get. You press it and tells you to go to the local service center to purchase the required equipment. It's cheaper to design and manufacture a single switch stack instead of several. It makes sense from a dollar and cents perspective but it's still taking the cheaper way out. I'd rather pay for the more suitable movement from anywhere than a vaunted 'Swiss' movement, though.
> 
> I prefer watches with a date complication so it usually doesn't come up that I have to choose. I think the only non-dates I have are the two Silver watches and they have 9039 movements so that was nice. I can say that knowing the SW200-1 in the Halios has been modified makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
> 
> ETA: I never knew the ghost date issue was such a big deal on the forums some time or some years ago. This is just something I noticed when I saw some no-date watches had date movements in them. I then wondered how they dealt with the crown position and then realized they don't. That's when my eye would start twitching.


Not sure if comparing a rental car telling you to drive somewhere is the same as an extra click of a watch crown when setting the time...

Seriously, a watch with an extra click when setting the time is the least bad form of function a watch could make in terms of design or at least it's very low on my list of watch sins. It's nice that no-date movements are more available for Microbrand owners than they were back then...well at least at an affordable price so it's not something to worry about these days (at least from watches I have seen recently).


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

We now take a break from "As NTH Turns" to offer some NTH watch prn&#8230;

My Monstraps order came in so I tried both bands on my Tropics Azores. Long story short, rubber tropics apparently made for the actual Hulk OR it's a misplaced G-Shock watch band. Though very comfy, I will have to cut it if I'm to regularly wear it. There are speed pins on the tropic for fast band changing. The nylon feed through, OTOH, is most awesome in fit and finish and remains on my wrist as I type this. Disclaimer: As these have been unwrapped all of an hour, no comment on long term sustainability. Ordered 30 Jun, DHL dropped off 6 Jul.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Lab4Us said:


> We now take a break from "As NTH Turns" to offer some NTH watch prn&#8230;


We are a dramatic (passionate) bunch of weirdos.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Chris, you should do a reality show about your company! call it American Micro. produce and post it on YouTube. Id love to watch the behind the scenes of running a watch brand!


It's mostly just me sitting at my desk, looking at my computer screen, mouthing, "are you f#%king $*!tting me?"

None of it would be entertaining to watch. The entertainment value is only in the re-telling.

Project watches are a special kind of ex post facto entertainment - even less fun to experience, compared to my normal routine, but then typically more entertaining in the retelling. Earlier today I was trying to remember all the projects I've been involved in, and how they all went, to see if there was a common theme...

1. The first F71 forum project, the Flying Dutchman - I didn't produce the watch, but I was the de facto head of the project steering committee, and the liaison with Fred Amos, of Bernhardt, who did produce it.

2. The second F71 forum project, the (Orthos) Commander 300, which of course I did produce.

3. The first four versions of the Nazario, sold exclusively though Watch Gauge.

4. Three different "Limited Editions" of the v.1 DevilRay.

5. The Carolina (for the BSHT guys).

6. The Catalina - with the Urban Gentry, sold through Watch Gauge.

7. The Kiger "Red Ronin".

8. The Holland, for exclusive sale by Serious Watches.

9. The two upcoming "Special Editions" of the v.2 DevilRay, being produced for exclusive sale by Watch Gecko.

And I may be forgetting some.

I'm not including any of the special-request, one-off assembly work we've done, which is probably another half-dozen pieces. No, wait, more than that - we did a lot of customizations for people on the Orthos and Cerberus, at least a dozen of those, so let's say we've done at least 20 different one-off assemblies.

But just counting the big projects, not the one-offs, how many is that? Lemme see here... carry the 1 ...15 different "special projects" of some form or another.

What's the common theme?

The common theme is that every project brought its own unique frustrations, but invariably, the more limits I set for the discussion and design process, the smoother things went, and the less frustrating it was. The more I allowed others to influence the direction we were heading in, the more lacking in direction we were, and the more frustrating it was.

And of course, the more sideways the project got, the more hilarious it would be in the re-telling. I won't tell the stories in public, but suffice to say, people wouldn't believe some of it actually happened.

I've gotten used to having to go back through my emails and other records, in order to come back to someone, and definitively state, "the hell you say. Look here. See what was said, and agreed to, back on X date..."

You can see why I don't actively solicit special projects much anymore. I'm happiest when I'm driving the bus, and the only decision others need to make is whether to get on or stay off.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

ConfusedOne said:


> Not sure if comparing a rental car telling you to drive somewhere is the same as an extra click of a watch crown when setting the time...


It's not the same. In my comparison, the navigation function is the same as the date complication itself. Having a button that does nothing but remind me the vehicle doesn't have a navigation function is the same as a crown position that does nothing but remind me my watch doesn't have a date complication. Clearly, it's not a concern for most but it's a design element that I value and look for. It's as important to me as case or dial finishing or a decent bracelet and well-fitting strap.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 15986505


How did you get that picture of me?!?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lab4Us said:


> We now take a break from "As NTH Turns" to offer some NTH watch prn&#8230;
> 
> My Monstraps order came in so I tried both bands on my Tropics Azores. Long story short, rubber tropics apparently made for the actual Hulk OR it's a misplaced G-Shock watch band. Though very comfy, I will have to cut it if I'm to regularly wear it. There are speed pins on the tropic for fast band changing. The nylon feed through, OTOH, is most awesome in fit and finish and remains on my wrist as I type this. Disclaimer: As these have been unwrapped all of an hour, no comment on long term sustainability. Ordered 30 Jun, DHL dropped off 6 Jul.
> 
> ...


Why u not buy from Bartons??!? Lol I just got their version of the tropics. I haven't tried them yet.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> Why u not buy from Bartons??!? Lol I just got their version of the tropics. I haven't tried them yet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Couple more shots in sunlight. My house lights are all LEDs which wreak havoc on photography. In sunlight, appears the nylon is more toward olive drab green and may need to be more of a hunter or forest green. Still like the feel of the band though.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaannddd...speaking of frustrating experiences which are only entertaining in the retelling...another fun fact I rediscovered today, looking at the BSHT project watch discussions, from back in April-July 2018...

"Vanguard".

If you don't immediately know the significance here, I'll try to explain without mentioning specific parties by name.

Within the last 2-3 days, I posted a link to a Wikipedia page with a list of submarine names from navies around the world.

When we started out doing NTH Subs designs in 2015, we'd just do the design, then figure out the name when we were done. But that often created unneeded delays. So, going all the way back to 2016, I started to comb that list, looking for all the names I might want to use in the future, and compiled a list for future reference.

"Vanguard" was at the top of the list.

From that point on, whenever Aaron, Rusty and I were noodling around with a new Subs design, Aaron would use "Vanguard" as the model name, by default, until we got around to picking a different one from the list I'd made.

As proof, here's the first illustration Aaron posted to the BSHT project discussion group. Note the name on the dial, and the post date (May 1, 2018)...










I'd been itching to produce a model called the Vanguard for over a year, so when it was decided the BSHT project would be called the "Carolina", we added "Vanguard" back to the list of eligible names for future use.

Almost exactly a year later, in May of 2019, I decided to keep the name Vanguard for the sunburst blue, original design we'd just completed, and submitted the final design to my vendors for production on the 12th, with a projected delivery date in late July or early August.










But, apparently one of my competitors had also been planning to call one of his upcoming models the "Vanguard", and was incensed when I revealed my Vanguard to the world in early July, on the 2nd.










He insisted I knew that he'd planned on using that name (I didn't), because I hit "like" on his posting of the illustrations to one of the FB groups I'm in, a few weeks earlier, sometime in June.

But as late as May 8th, only 4 days before I'd ordered our Vanguard to be produced, he still hadn't added the name to the design...


















Here's that pic, full size. Notice the lack of any name on the dial.










I hit "like" because we had been friends, and confidants. In fact, he'd shown me the design, months earlier, but that was BEFORE he added the name to the dial.

The name, when it was finally added, and then revealed, was weeks after we'd already started production of OUR Vanguard, and it was printed in the tiniest of tiny fonts, just above a sub-dial at 6, too small for me to notice, much less read, while scrolling past his FB post about it, on my phone.










I just hit "like", because I liked the design, and him (well enough). I didn't look closely at it, because I'd already seen it, months earlier, before the name "Vanguard" was added. I never noticed its addition. How could I? That image on my phone screen, or even on a laptop, was only a few inches tall. I couldn't see it was now called the "Vanguard".

That didn't seem to matter.

It also didn't seem to matter that neither of us could lay claim to being the first brand, nor even the first microbrand to name a model "Vanguard'. Gruppo Gamma predated us both with their "Vanguard", which dated back at least as far as 2016, and I can't even guess how long Franck Muller's been making their "Vanguard".










I remember the day he lost his cool about it, very well. It was the morning of July 3rd, 2018, the day after I'd posted that video of our upcoming Vanguard.

I remember the date because we were in the middle of an increasingly heated exchange about the Vanguards, and whether or not I knew his plans, and why I couldn't (nor shouldn't) alter mine at that point, when my phone started blowing up with notifications from people telling me I had to look at something else that had just been posted online, apparently everywhere...

It was a lengthy blog post about Ginault, in which the anonymous author doxxed me, and suggested I'd been involved in another direct competitor's business, creating illegal replica watches.










Seeing that I'd been doxed, and implicated in a fraudulent business filing without my knowledge, and accused of being involved in the production of illegal fakes, I told him I needed to cut our exchange short. When it became clear he wouldn't have it, I blocked him on FB messenger.

Anyway, apparently within a week, still angry about the Vanguard, he'd applied to register a new trademark in his home country, complete with an "NTH" logo, apparently not realizing I'd already received trademark protection for my NTH mark in that country, months earlier.

The process of registering a trademark works differently over there, such that the onus to avoid duplication of another's mark is on the registrant applying, not the government agency granting (the way it works here). If registration of a mark is granted, which would seem a foregone conclusion, it's up to the applicant to surrender the registration if it's later proven to infringe on another entity's pre-existing (and previously registered) trademark.

Imagine my surprise, about six months later, at seeing images of his newly-arrived prototype watches, sporting his "NTH" logo.

My lawyers were able to clear things up quickly enough (though not nearly cheaply enough), I'm happy to say, thanks to the steps we'd taken earlier, to protect the NTH mark globally, not just in the USA, since I foresaw some unethical bastard might try to steal my mark, in order to extort money, or prevent me from doing business within some country or region.

This business has lots of unethical bastards, it seems. And some of them will purport to be your friends.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> It's not the same. In my comparison, the navigation function is the same as the date complication itself. Having a button that does nothing but remind me the vehicle doesn't have a navigation function is the same as a crown position that does nothing but remind me my watch doesn't have a date complication. Clearly, it's not a concern for most but it's a design element that I value and look for. It's as important to me as case or dial finishing or a decent bracelet and well-fitting strap.


I'm not exactly disagreeing with you.

When this ghost-date thing was a hotly debated topic (I know I was hot, whilst debating it), the gist of the complaining seemed to be, "I hate that the watch companies don't *remove the date-change position* from the crown. Why are they cheaping out and cutting corners like that?"

That line of complaining would seem to include the (mostly correct) understanding that most affordable movement manufacturers at that time didn't offer no-date movement variants at the same price, or with the same availability and lead times as the with-date variants, which were generally understood to be "standard". Some didn't even make a no-date variant of their standard movements.

ETA, Selitta, Seiko and Miyota made their standard, with-date movements all year long, in huge numbers. Back then, those that did make no-date variants only made them once, or maybe twice a year, in very limited numbers. And very often, they cost more, if you could even get them. I was shocked when STP told me they could deliver no-date or with-date STP1-11's at the same price, with virtually no lead time.

The line of complaint also includes the implied assumption that it was not just possible to modify a with-date movement to make it a no-date, it was easy, and inexpensive to do. The fact is, it isn't always possible, and isn't exactly cheap or easy.

It isn't simply a matter of ripping the date wheel off the movement or using a different crown stem. The date-change position on the crown involves a part inside the movement, which has to be replaced. I know we can order those parts for ETAs and ETA clones, but I've never seen any supplier selling that part for any Japanese movements.

Assuming we could even get the parts, we'd have to pay for them, then pay someone to partially disassemble the movements, replace that part, then re-assemble the movements. It's not a small expense. It takes time, and involves fairly skilled labor. It's watchmaker work, not assembler work.

But let's assume we did it. The cost of a "no-date" movement is suddenly a lot higher than the with-date movements. Imagine if we tried to charge more for the no-dates. People would lose their minds. "How can you charge me MORE, for a watch that DOESN'T have the date? Shouldn't the WITH DATE cost MORE, and the no-date cost LESS?"

Just kill me now.

We should bear in mind...the people who were complaining might have been complaining because they bought some watch from some brand which made a model that was ONLY available as a no-date, yet used a with-date movement. But that was and remains fairly unusual. More likely, the people complaining were the same guys who HATED having a date, and really wanted a no-date.

The point being, brands like mine, and many others, were trying to accommodate them, by giving them a no-date dial.

I mean, isn't that the main point of the no-date dial version, NOT SEEING THE DATE? If seeing the date is your big bugaboo, and we solved that problem by removing the date window from the dial, WHO GIVES A FLYING FUDGE ABOUT THE GHOST DATE POSITION ON THE GODDAM CROWN?

Within the context of the debate as it was being had at that time, I saw the complaint as over-the-top OCD and anal-retentive, completely overlooking the forest for the trees.

The complaint was coming from people who should have been ecstatic that brands like mine were responding to their no-date requests by giving them no-date dials. Instead, they were incensed about the minor inconvenience of having a useless detent on the crown, and insulting brand owners like me with their accusations of being cheap, and cutting corners.

Beyond the relative scarcity of interchangeable and affordable no-date movements, that was my basic point to these guys - we were trying to accommodate people's requests for no-dates, as best we could at the time, without raising our prices, which we might have had to do, had we not "cheaped out", and "cut corners" by using with-date movements.

I wanted to ask them, "how much MORE would you be willing to pay for a watch that was converted to a true no-date?" I assumed the answer would be, "Wot? Not one shekel more, of course!"

Go back and re-read some of my recent posts about ordering the 9039 or 90S5 from my vendors. I have to figure out how many of each movement we'll need, months in advance, so we can be sure we'll have the no-date movements when we're ready to start assembling.

Even now, I can get any one of 3 different 9015 date-wheel variants anytime we want. But if we want a 9039 or 90S5, the lead time is longer, because they only make them once or twice a year. If we miss them, we're screwed.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

So THAT'S the story behind that "other" NTH. What a douche. As if I needed another reason not to buy from that guy.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Funny. I don’t THINK I care about the “phantom” phenomenon…

And yet, I’ve bought about a dozen NH38s for my own dateless builds… 

Ah humans, so fun.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Aaaannddd...speaking of frustrating experiences which are only entertaining in the retelling...another fun fact I rediscovered today, looking at the BSHT project watch discussions, from back in April-July 2018...
> 
> "Vanguard".
> 
> ...


Ok so if not a tv/YouTube series, your stories would make for a very entertaining podcast. Bro I'm telling you, you've been on fire lately with the stories. Keep em coming !

And to your last post. Before I figured out what Brit you were talking about, I saw that chrono and thought hey that looks like my old Armida A10! Lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> So THAT'S the story behind that "other" NTH. What a douche. As if I needed another reason not to buy from that guy.


Oh, if you only knew.

The whole, long story of that friendship turned sour would include some other bombshells, such as him thanking me profusely for introducing him to his current vendor, after his previous vendor suddenly went out of business, leaving him and his business stranded. That was only a few months before he turned on me, so viciously.

There are other stories I won't tell, simply because it's not worth the time, and in all honesty, might prompt people to ask me why I was his friend. In hindsight, all I can say is I admired the business he'd built, and the trail he and a few other older micros had blazed for the rest of us, and I found his peculiarities amusing at the time.

I did my level best to be a friend, and stay on his good side. When I ended up on his feces-list, it was purely by accident, through no fault or wrong-doing of my own, but there was simply no reasoning with him.

The man has quite the temper.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PS - if anyone is reading this, and thinking of alerting him about what's been said, and if he then reads all this, and once again flies into a rage, he should know this...

On the instructions of my attorney, when we were pursuing him for infringing the NTH trademark, I went back into Facebook messenger, and got a screen shot of every message either of us ever sent to the other, in case we ever needed to rely on it for legal purposes.

I have those screen shots saved to the cloud, and could give anyone access to them, instantly, just by posting a link to the folder. Anyone with that link would be able to see exactly when those screen shots were uploaded to the cloud, so they would know that they weren't recently edited in any way. They've all been there since January 26th, 2020, only a few weeks after we learned of the "other" NTH.

If someone was of a mind to now go back and selectively edit or release excerpts from those exchanges, in an attempt to deceptively portray me in a bad light, I wouldn't recommend it. In that scenario, I would have no problem posting a link to that folder, and letting the world read those exchanges, in their entirety, in order to allow the world to judge each of our characters fairly.

I've also got folders with screen-shots of exchanges I've had with a few other brand owners. I started getting into that habit when another brand owner, also a former friend, decided to do just that - selectively edit and release excerpts from our private exchange, in order to deceptively portray me in a bad light.

Like the rabbit said, tricks are for kids.

And like the clown said, Homey don't play that.

"The hell you say. See here, what was said, by whom, on X date."

I've had to do that a few times, unfortunately, and it's only possible if I can produce a record of the discourse.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

This **** is fascinating!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> This **** is fascinating!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed. 
A perfect example of why this is by far my favorite thread on the forum.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> This **** is fascinating!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Normies can't believe it when I tell them about the drama in this business and hobby. 12 year old girls are less catty than many of the supposedly grown men I've encountered trying to sell a few watches.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> Agreed.
> A perfect example of why this is by far my favorite thread on the forum.


Yup! I have questions about other micro owners that I know doc used to be close to and talk about. But I don't know what's appropriate to talk about in this open forum. Basically I'm in the mood for stories and gossip.

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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Consider today’s order from your site my subscription fee to this entertainment.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

PowerChucker said:


> Chris, you should do a reality show about your company! call it American Micro. produce and post it on YouTube. Id love to watch the behind the scenes of running a watch brand!


If he talks the way he types, I would watch it. Good TV


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I now want to trademark Hew & Luey and produce a N+H model with a clever plus sign in it LOL


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Mediocre said:


> I now want to trademark Hew & Luey and produce a N+H model with a clever plus sign in it LOL


Lol do it

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Yup! I have questions about other micro owners that I know doc used to be close to and talk about. But I don't know what's appropriate to talk about in this open forum. Basically I'm in the mood for stories and gossip.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can share that Jason from Halilos will absolutely destroy a plate of black bean clams. If you're not paying attention, they'll be gone before you get any.

He also always dresses nice, no matter how hot it is. Monsoon season on the equator (every September, at the Hong Kong show), he's dressed to the nines.

Chip from Aevig barely speaks, but when he does, odds are good what he says might be hilarious.

He also dresses nice.

He also completely lives up to the stereotype of Asians being camera-obsessed, and horrible with directions.

I almost murdered him as he was (poorly) leading a group of us to a restaurant, when I was drunk, starving, and desperate to evacuate my bladder. I can't remember if that was before or after he proved utterly useless in helping us find another restaurant, where we were supposed to meet Hong Kong Ed and a group of Hong Kong WIS.

Actually, maybe he just sucks at locating restaurants. I vaguely recall he also couldn't find the place where we had the clams with Jason. I can't remember a single time he successfully found us a place to eat.

"Hong Kong Ed" is actually from England. I swear to God. He sounds like he's reading the news on the BBC.

Of all the microbrand owners I've gone drinking with, Sujain from Melbourne is the wing-man of choice. He can hold his liquor amazingly well, and he's bigger than me, so while he's too big to carry, not that it should come to that, it isn't unreasonable to expect him to carry me, which is always a possibility when we go drinking in Hong Kong.

Sujain also likes to dress nice.

Actually, I'm starting to think maybe I'm just a poorly-dressed slob.

Eff it. It's hot in Hong Kong, I'm fat, and I like to be comfortable.

Elshan from Zelos is shy, we think, possibly bordering on having social anxiety. He always says hello when we bump into him, but he never joins any of the larger gatherings.

Kyle from Straton is extremely bright. Maybe the smartest microbrand owner I know.

Sergio Di Renzo is the microbrand owner everyone would want to hug. I can't really explain it. He just charms the pants off you. He starts talking with his heavily accented English, flashes that boyish smile, and you just want to say, "please marry my sister."

Pete from Hager is the brand owner most likely to make you say, "wait, what?" He's always nonchalantly dropping bombs about whatever he's been up to. It's like your brother in law the electrician telling you over Thanksgiving dinner that he's selling all his stuff and moving to Mars.

Fred Amos from Bernhardt might be the funniest brand owner alive, without trying to be, not even a little. The unvarnished truth bombs that guy drops in a five minute phone call could be turned into an SNL skit, starring the character, "Old, Salty Southern Dude who's fresh outta [email protected]&ks."

Every microbrand owner, no matter how nice people think they are, is secretly fed up with everybody's BS.

Yes, all of them. I've never complained about anything to another brand owner, and not had them instantly agree. Most will try to one-up me.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I can share that Jason from Halilos will absolutely destroy a plate of black bean clams. If you're not paying attention, they'll be gone before you get any.
> 
> He also always dresses nice, no matter how hot it is. Monsoon season on the equator (every September, at the Hong Kong show), he's dressed to the nines.
> 
> ...


Wowza. That's what I'm talking about! Great stuff

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

What in the f*** are black bean clams.......

Scratch that. Don't need to know. Pass me some good ol' Texas BBQ.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

captainmorbid said:


> Funny. I don't THINK I care about the "phantom" phenomenon&#8230;
> 
> And yet, I've bought about a dozen NH38s for my own dateless builds&#8230;
> 
> ...


NH38, you say? How did I not realize that exists?! I thought the options stopped at 35 and 36.

Thanks for mentioning!

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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Doc do you know Chris from Armida?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> What in the f*** are black bean clams.......
> 
> Scratch that. Don't need to know. Pass me some good ol' Texas BBQ.


Me and Jason are fightin when it comes to well made clams in black bean sauce. Hell black bean sauce and squid are also a favorite.

Black bean sauce is different from tex Mexican black beans. Black bean sauce is an Asian sauce with marinated beans in garlic. It's money when spicy and mainly in seafood for me.

I normally destroy 3 plates with a few bowls of rice in my local Chinese buffet. They lose money on me.

I dress nice according to my family.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

3WR said:


> NH38, you say? How did I not realize that exists?! I thought the options stopped at 35 and 36.
> 
> Thanks for mentioning!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's getting wild in the TMI world!

NH70s are starting to filter out
NE15s for the bigger power reserve(though I think these are goners soon)

Haven't come across any of the fancy hi-beat movements yet(probably wouldn't fit any NH sized cases available by the bushel, slightly different dimensions, plus $$$)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> What in the f*** are black bean clams.......
> 
> Scratch that. Don't need to know. Pass me some good ol' Texas BBQ.


They're a part of authentic Chinese cuisine, I think Hunan.

I'm kind of a picky eater, and would never have ordered them, but I was glad we did. They were delicious. Basically exactly what they sound like - clams, cooked in a black bean sauce.

I was happy to get a few before Jason gobbled them up. For a guy who looks like he's got washboard abs, Jason can pack the food away, which is another reason I'm jealous of him. I'd gain ten pounds jogging past a bakery, just smelling the pastries.

That was a dinner I shared with Jason, Chip from Aevig, Hong Kong Ed, our friend Clara (WUS user claradead), who used to work as a designer for some OEM in Hong Kong, but I think has moved back to Singapore, and one of Jason's long-time customers, a doctor in Hong Kong, I think, who later became an NTH customer, too.

That's actually a funny story...

He'd heard of Lew & Huey and NTH. I was wearing one of the prototype NTH Subs, which he said he was interested in, and looking forward to seeing. It was about three seconds later that my watch literally - not figuratively - fell right the fudge off my wrist, into my bowl of soup.

Goddam rassin-frassin bracelet screws backing out. And me without a 1.2mm flathead screwdriver. I had to carry the watch around in my pocket the rest of the night.

We all had a good laugh. But inside, I was mortified.

Still, he did end up ordering one.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> NH38, you say? How did I not realize that exists?! I thought the options stopped at 35 and 36.
> 
> Thanks for mentioning!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The NH38 is to the NH35 what the 90S5 is to the 9015 - a slightly more expensive, open-heart, no-date version of the with-date version.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Doc do you know Chris from Armida?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not even a little, though I think I might have traded messages with him once, when I brought his attention to a discussion on the forums.

I might be thinking of someone else, but I think it was him.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I will admit that having a no-date movement in a no-date watch is somehow better karma. Having an unseen date wheel bothers me more than the ghost crown position, just from a form-follows-function aesthetic, though neither bothers me very much; I'd probably pay 50 bucks, tops, to eliminate both on a no-date watch.

Anyway, it's a now a moot point for NTH, doc is keeping all customers happy.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avo said:


> doc is keeping all customers happy.


That means its time to see if we can piss him off.

How about an update on that mystery non diver?


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Having spent some time in HK myself, I can vouch for the value of dressing comfortably... and not relying on other people for directions.

But then, I'm "that guy" who on a guided excursion will say "no, it's this way..." because I'm a control freak about not getting lost.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I'm craving some real Chinese food all of a sudden.....not available around here lol

Knowing that Jason dresses nice and Doc does not just moved NTH farther up my list vs the other LOL


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here are 2-3 amusing anecdotes, involving me, Chip, and Hong Kong Ed, centered around language barriers...

First off, some context...

My user name "doc" comes from my time as a medic in the Army, but that was just my first enlistment.

I re-enlisted to become an interrogator, and they sent me to the Defense Language Institute (aka, DLI) at the Presidio of Monterey, California, to learn - wait for it - Chinese Mandarin, the official language of Mainland China (as opposed to Cantonese, which is spoken in Hong Kong, and by most Chinese-Americans, if they still speak Chinese at all, in places like San Francisco's Chinatown).

This was a 63-week, all-day / every day (well, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week) "immersion" course, from 1998 to 1999, taught by native speakers, including a former professor from Beijing University ("China's Harvard").

A few things about that...

I may be remembering this wrong, but my recollection is that DLI rates the difficulty in learning a language for a native English speaker on a scale from 1 to 5. Spanish would be a 1. Chinese Mandarin is a 5.

(Ironic side-note - the effed-up, convoluted rules for English make it a harder language for a native Chinese speaker to learn than it is for a native English speaker to learn Chinese. For them, English would be higher than 5. Think about that the next time you hear someone who grew up in China speaking English.)

Keeping with that theme, DLI also rates student language skills on a scale of 1 to 5, for understanding what we hear, understanding what we read, and our "production", which is a combination of how well we can speak and/or write a language, but with the main emphasis being on speaking, not necessarily writing (at least not for the more difficult languages like Chinese).

1 is basic to non-existent. 2 is intermediate, good enough to survive if someone was dropped into a foreign country, but not really conversant. 3 is conversant, proficient for a non-native speaker, but not fluent. 4 is fluency for a non-native speaker. 5 would be fluency approaching that of an average native speaker. A native speaker with complete mastery of diction and grammar would be a 6.

The goal for Chinese Mandarin Students is to score 2+ (almost a 3, but not quite) to 3's across the board, for listening, reading, and production. I was one of the better students in my class of 30, but I got tripped up on my final, when I was asked to describe the building where I studied Kickboxing, which was shaped like an old-time airplane hanger, and I just didn't have the words. My final scores were 2+, 3, and 2+ (listening, reading, and production).

Today, I can't speak a lick, other than a single sentence I've committed to memory, and I doubt I'd pronounce every word correctly. I can recognize Mandarin when I hear it, and pick up a few words here and there, but not enough to follow dialogue. I can recognize and distinguish Chinese characters (written words) from other Asian languages, but I doubt I could read any. Learning a foreign language is a "use it or lose it" skill.

Here's another thing about Mandarin and Cantonese - written down, they're exactly the same. But if a Mandarin speaker and a Cantonese speaker were to read the same sentence aloud, they'd sound completely different, nothing alike at all.

When spoken, they're two completely different languages, but like many Asian languages, they're both "tonal", which means each of the five tones used to pronounce a word changes its meaning, usually to something completely unrelated.

As an example, if your friend from the Czech Republic says, "Let's go get DRANK", you know he either meant, "let's go get a DRINK", or "let's go get DRUNK". It's probably one or the other. Worst case scenario, he's just thirsty.

It ain't like that in Chinese. You might think you're saying you want a drink, but you could be saying you want to piss on Chairman Mao. Even as one of the better students, I saw my share of strange looks from our instructors, and a few didn't mind guffawing, right in my face.

All that is just context for the anecdotes...

Chip is "Chinese", but he grew up in the Netherlands. I know he speaks Dutch, I assume fluently. His English isn't bad, but when he speaks it, you can tell he's thinking in Dutch, or Cantonese (I'll get to that), and translating what he's thinking into English, as opposed to just "thinking in English", the way any of us would.

His parents were native Cantonese speakers, from the Guangdong (aka, "Canton") region of China. They spoke Cantonese around the house.

Chip will tell you he's not fluent. But I've seen that a-hole have 20 minute conversations, in Cantonese, without anyone looking like they didn't understand what he was saying, or him looking lost. That dude speaks Cantonese. Don't let him piss down your leg and tell you it's raining.

He got a Hong Kong cab driver to agree to give us a ride, during rush hour, even after his shift ended. I watched him explain bezel construction to a vendor, in Cantonese, including his description of an 8-sided retention ring versus a wire click spring.

He's at least a 3+, if not a 4.

Chip's ability to speak Cantonese has come in handy countless times, from talking to vendors, to letting locals know he, the fat white guy, and the bigger, fatter Australian (Sujain) were cool. Whenever Sujain or I have gotten stuck in a convo with a local, we just looked to Chip, "a little help here?"

But, he doesn't read a lick of it. Neither do I, any more, but c'mon. I didn't grow up with Chinese parents, and I haven't studied in over 20 years. I bet I can still read more than Chip, though, which is why he's useless for finding restaurants in Hong Kong, where all the signs are in Chinese.

That's not the only reason. I've found most of the restaurants where we've eaten, without reading the signs. Chalk it up to a strong sense of "this can't be the right way", and a strong sense of smell, especially when I'm hungry. Like I said, he lives up to the "bad at navigating" Asian stereotype.

Meanwhile, Ed grew up in Cornwall, England. His English is PERECT. Now, I don't know how or when he learned to speak Mandarin, and he might also claim he's not fluent, but I know that a-hole speaks it, and he's more fluent than he lets on,

Here's how I know (trust me, this gets funny)...

I've been to the big HK show three times - 2014, 2016, and 2018. All three times, Chip and Sujain were there, too. So was Hong Kong Ed, but that's no surprise, since he lives there. Why else would he be called Hong Kong Ed?

Jason was also there. He pulls the same move, every time. His move is to tell me he's not going to be there when I email to ask him, then he suddenly appears at the show, claiming he changed his mind, last-minute, because he had to straighten out something with one of his vendors, for whatever model he's working on.

I secretly think Jason's just trying to avoid making plans to meet up with us. Or me. Could be me.

Anyhoo, back to the HK show...I think it was the 2014 show when Ed arranged for us to all meet up with a bunch of WIS for dinner, but it might have been the 2016 show. We went to some place where the staff definitely did not speak English. I watched that mother-effer order all the food, for a dozen people, in Mandarin.

I also think it was the 2016 show when Chip had had enough of Sea-Gull USA knocking off his designs. He wanted to go to Sea-Gull's booth at the show, and read them the riot act. The problem was that Mainlanders speak Mandarin, and Chip speaks Cantonese. Ed speaks Mandarin (see above), so he agreed to tag along.

I tagged along too. Not for my language skills, but because I didn't want to miss this, and also because I see myself as "the muscle" whenever we're in Hong Kong. I'm like a jolly, red, white and blue giant there, all 5' 9" of me. I figured it couldn't hurt for Chip to have a semi-menacing presence behind him.

So, we spent the first few minutes with Chip trying to explain to the Sea-Gull peeps that he had a complaint, but they needed to find someone to speak Cantonese, so he could lodge it. Fortunately, they had a guy like that. But the lady-boss only spoke Mandarin. Here's how this went down...

Chip explained his issue to Cantonese Sea-Gull guy. That guy translated what Chip was saying into Mandarin, for the lady-boss. Ed mostly stood there paying close attention, "keeping them honest", but occasionally he would chime in, either to help explain, or maybe just to prove to me that he was following along and trying to help Chip.

I was basically just walking around the booth, keeping one eye on the action, while trying to look even bigger and more conspicuous than I am. I wanted the Sea-Gull peeps to worry I might accidentally and simultaneously put my foot through a display case and my head through the roof. If they wanted to get rid of me, they'd have to give Chip a fair hearing, was the basic idea I hoped my presence would convey.

People in Hong Kong could use me for a landmark. I suspect they might, "see the big, dumb, round-eye? Yeah, turn right past him, and the bathrooms are on the left."

Ultimately, nothing Chip said mattered, because, as we learned, Tianjin Sea-Gull (what I think of as "the mothership") apparently has no control over what Sea-Gull USA does. Sea-Gull USA has apparently gone rogue. Off the reservation. Way off.

Anyway...after seeing Ed order food for 12 people in Mandarin, and seeing him look like he followed the convo at the Sea-Gull booth, I got crazy drunk, and sort of, let's say, semi-forgot all that. Because that's what drunks do when they're drinking. They semi-forget things.

I was just trying to not sound drunk, while also making polite conversation. I was trying to ask Ed how he got along with the locals, being that he's "Chinese", but not "really" Chinese, because he grew up in England, and his Mandarin wasn't as good.

Part of my question came from a muddled memory of him telling me he wasn't fluent. Part of it came from my observation that native Chinese can be a bit stand-offish to foreigners, and even towards other Chinese people from different regions, sort of like how Italians sneer at Italian-Americans who try to act more Italian, calling them something that sounds like "Mehdigahn" ("Merican", but with a snarky Italian accent).

Now, aside from the fact I'd already seen him speaking Mandarin, very well, this wasn't all that stupid a thing to ask, especially for a drunk American. Remember, I knew something about Chinese. I knew that slight mispronunciation resulted in complete misunderstanding.

And I'd experienced native Chinese contempt for foreigners (many of them tried to run this foreigner over while he tried to cross the street, albeit, looking the wrong way, because they drive on the left, not the right - I swear one of them actually sped up as I stepped off the curb).

Ed looked me dead in the eye, and said, "I don't speak Chinese."

I swear to God. He said that. Looked me dead in the eye, and lied his Mandarin-speaking a$$ off.

He kept it up for 20 minutes. When he finally let up and admitted he was jerking my chain, it was only because Clara couldn't keep from laughing hysterically any longer. She almost fell out of her chair.

Ed never flinched. For 20 minutes, at least, he was stone-faced throughout our conversation. Do NOT play poker with that guy.

Last story, before I zonk out...

It's 2014. Chip, Sujain and I are on the mainland, touring vendors' facilities. We're in the back of someone's car, somewhere in Shenzhen. I don't remember what we were talking about, but Chip told us this story, which tells you everything you need to know about doing business in China...

Chip's father moved back to Guang Dong. He bought a penthouse apartment in some Guang Dong village (town, city, whatever).

CHIP: "Why did you buy the penthouse?"

DAD: "It was the cheapest apartment in the building."

CHIP: "Wait, what? Why?"

DAD: "The roof might leak."


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Aaaannddd...speaking of frustrating experiences which are only entertaining in the retelling...another fun fact I rediscovered today, looking at the BSHT project watch discussions, from back in April-July 2018...
> 
> "Vanguard".
> 
> ...


And the funny thing is...The Gruppo Gamma doesn't even identify itself as a Vanguard.... it's a stealth watch...









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Black Friday! &#8230;or Bodhisattva if you prefer! (Hint- see (or listen) Steely Dan)

Bodhisattva is a human who has reached enlightenment, as the Buddha did, and can leave physical existence behind, but chooses to remain in human form to help others achieve freedom.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Here are 2-3 amusing anecdotes, involving me, Chip, and Hong Kong Ed, centered around language barriers...
> 
> First off, some context...
> 
> ...


I remember reading your post back in 2016 that was the travel log for that trip. It was fascinating! you have a great way of telling stories. For some reason when I think about you in HK with those guys, the Kurt Russell movie "Big Trouble in Little China" pops into my head.. i dont know why..


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> I remember reading your post back in 2016 that was the travel log for that trip. It was fascinating! you have a great way of telling stories. For some reason when I think about you in HK with those guys, the Kurt Russell movie "Big Trouble in Little China" pops into my head.. i dont know why..


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> What in the f*** are black bean clams.......
> 
> Scratch that. Don't need to know. Pass me some good ol' Texas BBQ.


Ima go with: some non-New England clam abomination...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My folks went to DLI for Italian. I think we were there for 6 mos or so. By the time they hit Italy, probably they were speaking around 3, and maybe 4 by the time we left? Mom was working from a deficit of a strong Massachusetts accent, and there is a critical difference between ordering "carne" and "cane."... I spent 3.5 years taking beginner Italian in schools over there... never did cluck especially well with foreign languages.

So this showed up.










Ooo, a _blank_ box...

And this was inside:



















Damn... so sweet. Super happy with this one, beyond expectations. I saw the Scorpene White with DLC, and it almost did it for me, but this one is frikkin' amazeballz.

I think Doc still has a no-date he could build for anyone interested, and I STRONGLY recommend you pick it up, if interested.
.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> My folks went to DLI for Italian. I think we were there for 6 mos or so. By the time they hit Italy, probably they were speaking around 3, and maybe 4 by the time we left? Mom was working from a deficit of a strong Massachusetts accent, and there is a critical difference between ordering "carne" and "cane."... I spent 3.5 years taking beginner Italian in schools over there... never did cluck especially well with foreign languages.
> 
> So this showed up.
> 
> ...


Daaaang... I'm not much of a blackened steel guy, but that's pretty.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Damn... so sweet. Super happy with this one, beyond expectations. I saw the Scorpene White with DLC, and it almost did it for me, but this one is frikkin' amazeballz.
> 
> I think Doc still has a no-date he could build for anyone interested, and I STRONGLY recommend you pick it up, if interested.


Glad you like it.

We already have the no-date assembled. It'll go up for sale on the website as soon as we ship it to our warehouse, hopefully later today.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Lab4Us said:


> Black Friday! &#8230;or Bodhisattva if you prefer! (Hint- see (or listen) Steely Dan)
> 
> Bodhisattva is a human who has reached enlightenment, as the Buddha did, and can leave physical existence behind, but chooses to remain in human form to help others achieve freedom.
> 
> View attachment 15987871


Nice. The sparkle of your China. The shine of your Japan. I'm gonna sell my house in town! And I'll be there&#8230;

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


>


holy **** man, i love the blue swiftsure but the vintage no date cudda looks nice and i havnt followed or read enough to know a v2 was on the way. Bonus and 32 hours of overtime strikes the checking account on the 22nd too so i will be buying either the swift or this.....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Unrelated to watches, but apropos of the military, and foreign languages, possibly learned at DLI, this just popped up in my FB feed.

Actor William Smith (not "Will Smith") just died. He was sort of a poor man's Charles Bronson, playing a variety of alpha-male, muscular tough guys, good and bad, throughout the '70's and '80's.

You may remember him as the (quite convincing) Russian Colonel in "Red Dawn", Clint Eastwood's bare-knuckle boxing opponent Jack Wilson in "Any Which Way You Can", or the cop always after Mickey Rourke in "Rumblefish".

Apparently he actually did speak Russian, from his time in service during the Korean War, as an "Intercept Interrogator". I'm not sure if the term is accurate, though it may have been back then.

When I served, those who were trained to speak foreign languages went on to become either voice interceptors for SIGINT (signals intelligence - basically translators of intercepted signal communications), or interrogators for HUMINT (human intelligence).

No one was classified as both at the time, although language school did serve as good preparation for follow-on training to do either, as our lessons involved both recording transcription and in-person dialogue.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Dive, dive, dive&#8230;into 54% humidity and a heat index of "feels like 93 degrees". But yard work must be done today as even MORE rain due in tomorrow morning and evening&#8230;


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> Dive, dive, dive&#8230;into 54% humidity and a heat index of "feels like 93 degrees". But yard work must be done today as even MORE rain due in tomorrow morning and evening&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 15990678


54% humidity is high for your neck of the woods

Over here we get excited when it is that low LOL


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> 54% humidity is high for your neck of the woods
> 
> Over here we get excited when it is that low LOL


Oh yeah..going on about 6 weeks of 50%+ minus one or two days. Way ready for our 10-20% and dry mornings. Used to be able to cut grass at 7:30 am&#8230;not this summer. Though I have saved a FORTUNE on watering!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Dive, dive, dive&#8230;into 54% humidity and a heat index of "feels like 93 degrees". But yard work must be done today as even MORE rain due in tomorrow morning and evening&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 15990678





Mediocre said:


> 54% humidity is high for your neck of the woods
> 
> Over here we get excited when it is that low LOL


Great weather to work on the patina for your bronzo if ya got one.

Still waiting on that bronze and titanium GMT with a Swiss movement, Doc. It better have lasers too.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Great weather to work on the patina for your bronzo if ya got one.
> 
> Still waiting on that bronze and titanium GMT with a Swiss movement, Doc. It better have lasers too.


Vintage style bronze non-diver you say?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Vintage style bronze non-diver you say?


GMT. You forgot GMT...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Oh...and a cage around the movement to make it antimagnetic yet somehow keeping watch thickness the same!


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Mediocre said:


> Oh...and a cage around the movement to make it antimagnetic yet somehow keeping watch thickness the same!


With yellow and red dial options of course.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

*Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!








*


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

For the fitted rubber straps, am I remembering correctly that you have to use the thinner spring bars that come with the strap? Asking because I broke one in the first 15 minutes of trying to get that strap on.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

NS1 said:


> For the fitted rubber straps, am I remembering correctly that you have to use the thinner spring bars that come with the strap? Asking because I broke one in the first 15 minutes of trying to get that strap on.


I got mine at Watchgauge (22 mm) and description read:

This tapered rubber strap is made from premium quality Viton™ rubber, providing the utmost durability while remaining pliable and comfortable, and resistant to attracting dust.

It has a curved-end specifically designed to fit the 22mm lugs of the NTH 2K1's, using the 1.8mm spring bar from the 2K1's bracelet.

Using the 1.5mm spring bar supplied with the strap, it will also fit the NTH DevilRay and Lew & Huey Orthos.

It may not fit other watches with 22mm lugs."

So it looks lIke it depends on what watch your putting strap on. My orange 22mm (for Swiftsure) came with pins inserted and they were very tight in the strap, so I'm thinking they're 1.8. If those were 1.5mm that came in the strap, not sure how I would get the 1.8s inserted!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Me: Yeah, I already have an NTH sub, no need for others.

Also me: Woops...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NS1 said:


> For the fitted rubber straps, am I remembering correctly that you have to use the thinner spring bars that come with the strap? Asking because I broke one in the first 15 minutes of trying to get that strap on.


Depends on which watch you're mounting the strap to. They're definitely NOT meant for the 2K1's. With the 2K1's, you need to use the bars from the bracelet.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> Me: Yeah, I already have an NTH sub, no need for others.
> 
> Also me: Woops...
> 
> View attachment 15993671


Great name for a watch&#8230;Bromax Unprofessional&#8230;don't know why but got an instant image of Will Ferrell!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Finally got some yard work done this weekend. Trying to class up Delco a bit lol


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## NS1 (May 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> Depends on which watch you're mounting the strap to. They're definitely NOT meant for the 2K1's. With the 2K1's, you need to use the bars from the bracelet.


Odin. I'll take another crack at it with the spring bars I have on hand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NS1 said:


> Odin. I'll take another crack at it with the spring bars I have on hand.


The straps are not an easy fit to the 40mm Subs. You're now the second guy who's told me he broke a spring bar trying to fit one.

They will fit, with enough effort.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Crap, I just realized i have the wrong date set on my Amphion in todays pics lol. oh well. it was 12 hours off.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Because I know some of you aren't on Instagram, or Facebook, or getting the email newsletter, I guess I'll need to post another update here...

Amphion Commando - no-date - last piece left in the world - NTH Amphion Commando No Date

Bahia - no-date - last piece left in the world - 인투와치

DevilRay, Black - no-date - last piece left in the world - 인투와치

Näcken Vintage Black - last piece left in the world (a with-date) - NTH Nacken Vintage W/ Date

Oberon II - no-date - last piece left in the world - NTH Oberon II No Date

Oberon II - with date - last piece left in the world - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-oberon-ii-date

Scorpène - White, DLC - last piece left in the world (no date) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-scorpene-white-dlc-no-date

Tikuna - last piece left in the world (a with date) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-tikuna-date

Vanguard - last piece left in the world (a no date) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-vanguard-no-date

v.1 Barracuda Vintage Black - the last remaining v.1 pieces, just 9 pieces left worldwide, all DLC, can be found at Serious Watches, and Watch Gauge. Only 2 no-dates, and 7 with-dates left:

With Date - Serious - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-vintage-black-dlc-date
No Date - Serious - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-vintage-black-dlc-no-date - only 1 no-date left in the EU.
With or without date - Watch Gauge - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-vintage-black-dlc - only 1 no-date left in the US.
v.1 Näcken Modern Black - Only 6 pieces left in the world (all with date): 

Last 2 with DLC case/bracelet, both with date, at Serious - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nacken-modern-black-dlc-date
Only 1 piece left, with date, stainless case/bracelet, on Oyster bracelet, in Hong Kong - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/5caa2e3d2ac6cb002f31a11c
Only 3 pieces left, with date, stainless case/bracelet, available on BOR or Oyster bracelet, at IntoWatch, S.Korea - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=99&cate_no=60&display_group=1
v.1 Näcken Modern Blue - Only 4 pieces left in the world (and only 1 no-date):

With or without date, on Oyster, at Five:45 in New Zealand
No Date - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nth-nackenbluendate?_pos=7&_sid=b5f159f4b&_ss=r - last no-date left in the world.
With Date - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nth-nackenbluewdate?_pos=6&_sid=b5f159f4b&_ss=r


2 with-dates, on Oyster, at IntoWatch in S.Korea - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=170&cate_no=60&display_group=1
On average, there are just 5 pieces left of every version of every NTH model left in the world.

The NTH website won't have any of the v.2 Subs available for this upcoming release. They will only be available from Watch Gauge, Island Watches, Serious Watches, and Watch Gecko.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

With the release of the v2 Sub case, I was trying to think of the all the improvements done to the NTH Subs over the years. What I can remember as being discussed here:


New, improved bracelet
New, improved clasp
Improved end links, e.g., more definition to the end links
Better regulation of the movement (movements are now regulated by Dan)
Rhodium plated markers (I guess this only applies to models with applied indices such as the Barracuda)
Improvements to quality control
Use of no-date movements (9039 or 90S5) for no-date models
Different, improved sleeve design for the watch box

I am bit vague on the following (I seem to remember some discussion, but may be misremembering):

Better finishing of the case ?
Better construction of the bezel assembly ?
Improved gaskets, e.g., Viton ?

I am amazed at how long the basic NTH Sub design has been around, and while the basic design has been adhered to, quite a few improvements, some small and others more visible, have been made. I am not sure if these improvements have been widely publicized. I believe many people know of the improvements to the bracelet, but others may be going under the radar.

In any case I am looking forward to seeing the v2 Subs soon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> With the release of the v2 Sub case, I was trying to think of the all the improvements done to the NTH Subs over the years. What I can remember as being discussed here:
> 
> 
> New, improved bracelet
> ...



New, improved bracelet - yes.
New, improved clasp - yes.
Improved end links, e.g., more definition to the end links - yes.
Better regulation of the movement (movements are now regulated by Dan) - yes.

Rhodium plated markers (I guess this only applies to models with applied indices such as the Barracuda) - any model with applied indices, so long as the indices have frames with a metallic surface. So it does not include the models with indices framed in white (Nacken Modern Black, or Modern Blue), nor does it include the gilt-relief dials, because they don't have applied indices.

Improvements to quality control - yes.

Use of no-date movements (9039 or 90S5) for no-date models - 9039 for any model that is only offered as a no-date. 90S5 for any no-date version of a model that is offered with or without the date.

Different, improved sleeve design for the watch box - yes, more costly to print, takes up more of my time keeping it all organized and getting them printed in advance, in numbers typically larger than what we actually assemble. It's a small thing, but I think it's a nice touch. Doesn't make the watch any better, but I think it's a small enhancement to the ownership experience.

Better finishing of the case? I think so, but without really being able to quantify or "prove" it in any way. We always had great finishing, but I think it's gotten better, and that's more noticeable with designs like the 2K1's and v.2 Subs, where the crispness of the surface transitions really shines through.

Better construction of the bezel assembly? Not sure / not really, but if so, only marginally. I think we made a minor change to the click spring (3 click tabs and 2 locator tabs, up from 2 and 1, respectively). Otherwise, the bezel construction has always been the same, unless you consider using slightly more adhesive under the insert as an improvement.

Improved gaskets, e.g., Viton? I'm 91.4% sure we're now using Viton seals in all our watches. I'm only not 100% sure because I haven't spoken to my vendors about it in well over a year. But honestly, it's debatable whether or not that's an improvement.
Ordinarily, the seals are made of NBR rubber. It's more compressible, so it makes for a tighter seal, whereas Viton isn't as compressible, but is more abrasion resistant. NBR rubber seals will dry out, and should be replaced no less frequently than every 10 years. Viton seals are supposed to last a lifetime.​​Although Viton is more expensive than NBR, with a small part like a seal, the cost difference is negligible. There's nothing "wrong" with NBR rubber, especially not for seals, as that's one of the intended applications of the NBR compound. Many straps are made from NBR, though I personally think EPDM or Viton are both better compounds for straps (just my opinion, based on my own investigations into how the compounds differ in their uses and performance). The cost difference is more appreciable with straps, where the cost of the material and the tooling play a bigger role in the straps' cost.​​So, the debate should be - is it better to have a tighter seal, for the sake of WR in your watch, but which will need to be replaced after 10 years, at the latest, or is it better to have a seal that may not be quite as tight, but likely will never need to be replaced, or if it does need replacement, will be many years later (much more than 10)?​​We decided to switch to Viton because, A) other brands were making a big deal about their Viton seals, and I figured it would be easier to follow suit than argue about why Viton seals aren't that big a deal, despite what other brand owners might say, and B) I figure most of our customers are more likely to never replace their seals than they are to take their watches beyond 50 meters deep, so I'm doing them a favor by giving them something else that will likely never require any maintenance.​​I should probably make a bigger deal out of it. But I'd rather people just buy the watches because they like them, than get into a never-ending "spec war" with other brands. Just kill me now.​​Those are all the improvements we've made to the product itself, I think. I may be forgetting something.

But we've also made operational improvements, which may not be found in the product itself, but which still add value to the product - retailers around the world, an in-house watchmaker capable of turning repairs around quickly (often within 24 hours), same-day response time on support requests, extended returns period, extended warranty, lower shipping costs, faster order fulfillment, etc.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As for whether or not people realize the changes...

If someone is just discovering the brand now, why explain the product didn't used to be as good?

If someone has been following along since 2016 - they've been informed of the improvements along the way.

If someone was following along, but stopped - they're not paying attention anymore anyway, so there's no point in putting any effort into making them aware.

Earlier today, I was talking to my marketing team about some minor changes to the website, specifically descriptive text and the specs for each model range, where to put each - on the product page, versus the collection page, and whether or not it made sense to try to re-write / re-format any of it.

We decided to limit the descriptive text to the collection page, and put the specs on the product page. We also decided it didn't make sense to do any re-writing or re-formatting, because the vast majority of the people visiting the site never look at any of it anyway. They look at the pics, then the price, and make a decision whether or not they're interested enough to go looking for some spec, usually the basics - WR, dimensions, movement, and maybe lume.

Only the geekiest of watch geeks would get wrapped around the axle thinking about whether or not our seals are Viton or our markers rhodium-plated, compared to what some other brand is doing. No one should be THAT on the fence, if they're comparing an NTH to a watch from some other brand. The comparisons shouldn't get that far, since the products aren't that closely comparable. 

You like the watch? You like the price? Buy it. If not, no amount of Viton or rhodium is going to make you like it enough to buy it. 

I really feel like my time is best spent working on new designs and improving our operations, not making sure the geekiest in the market know we're using Viton seals or plating the markers with rhodium. 

If someone can't recognize the quality of what we offer, without me going to those extreme lengths to "prove" it, there's no point in me trying. They'll only find something else to quiz me about, and I hate being quizzed by those guys. Whatever we do, they'll find some other brand who does something else, just a little bit "better". 

Whatevs.

It's the same as the "where are your watches made" question we get about once or twice a year. If someone doesn't know enough about watches to understand why that question is pointless, I don't have time to explain it to them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Actually, maybe I'm wrong about all of that. Maybe I'm thinking too much about the more knowledgeable customers, and not enough about the less-knowledgeable ones, the ones who might be impressed reading about "Viton Seals!" and "Rhodium-Plated Markers!"

It's just not in my nature to automatically promote everything as if it's "special" in some way. I think the product is very good. I think it speaks for itself. I think we do enough talking about it, and there's a danger in over-selling it. 

If making a big deal about something that really isn't loses me one more knowledgeable customer, and gains me one less knowledgeable customer, I consider that a net loss. The more knowledgeable customer is more likely to appreciate what NTH offers, and tell others about it, than the less knowledgeable customer, who's going to be less brand-loyal.

I guess that's just how I see it - the guy who cares about and will be impressed by things like "Viton seals" and "rhodium-plated markers" isn't really my customer. My customer likes the watch, likes how it looks, likes the specs, how it wears, the attention to detail we put into design, likes the price, and trusts us to stand behind the product, as well as know how best to put it together. 

He's not laying awake at night, second-guessing himself over his NTH purchase, wondering if his seals are Viton or his indices rhodium-plated.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random shout-out to whoever did this...










That's awesome. Thanks!

Now, instead of someone needing to search the forum for a term that is specific to NTH, like one of our model names, any time someone happens to search "customer abuse", they'll find this thread.

You did me a favor, numb-nuts.

Don't threaten me with bad publicity, folks.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> The straps are not an easy fit to the 40mm Subs. You're now the second guy who's told me he broke a spring bar trying to fit one.
> 
> They will fit, with enough effort.


Yeah, but the first guy was a toolbag


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Yeah, but the first guy was a toolbag


When all you have is a hammer, may as well keep banging.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Regarding the question about whether or not you should tell a new customer we "use to be not as good"....another way to think about it

It is not about a seal change, clasp swap, or rubber strap. Those are pieces of a puzzle that assembles to spell...

"Continuous Improvement", which is such a buzz phrase, to the point it could very well be something that answers questions a new customer might have about a new (to them) small brand. It tells them you are serious, and you are obviously better than all of the stufg on Aliexpress, every ad they have pop up on IG for a brand they have not heard of, etc....you are invested in producing and improving quality. That relevance is universal


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Thinking about component and materials choices, but particularly thinking about talking about those choices...

Every so often, someone in one of the Facebook groups I'm in will ask why more watch companies don't use 904L steel, like Rolex does.

Because if Rolex uses it, you just know it's better, right?

Mmmm...no, not really.

I've tried to argue about this, with one guy, one time. But he proved to me you can't reason with people who think this way. So I've stopped arguing when it comes up.

904L is more corrosion resistant - for steel parts used in highly acidic environments, for extended periods of time.

When I say highly acidic, I mean toxic, like, you don't want to swim in those environments, for any length of time, unless you want to end up looking like the guy who crashed into the vat of toxic waste in "Robocop".

Remember him?

Before:










After:










But 904 isn't as hard as 316L, which means it's easier to ding and scratch.

Why does Rolex use it? I suspect because the higher nickel content makes it more blingtastic when the watch is polished, but it could be they just like it because it's more expensive, and gives them an excuse to charge more for the watch.

Of course they've invested millions in promoting the idea that 904L steel is "better", when in fact, it's actually inferior, in the specific application of making a watch.

This is what I think about, when noobs ask why we don't do something, usually after they see some other brand talking about it, like using vanta-black on a dial, or using a Swiss movement, a ceramic bezel, 10 layers of AR...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Thinking about component and materials choices, but also talking about them...
> 
> Every so often, someone in one of the Facebook groups I'm in will ask why more watch companies don't use 904L steel, like Rolex does.
> 
> ...


I thought about this very topic when I read this thread earlier today...









New watch brand - AERA


Hi everyone, I saw a couple of ads from this new watch brand called 'Aera' on my IG feed recently. Just wondered if anyone else has come across them? The watches look pretty nice and made from 904L steel but slightly out of my current price range sadly!




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Regarding the question about whether or not you should tell a new customer we "use to be not as good"....another way to think about it
> 
> It is not about a seal change, clasp swap, or rubber strap. Those are pieces of a puzzle that assembles to spell...
> 
> "Continuous Improvement", which is such a buzz phrase, to the point it could very well be something that answers questions a new customer might have about a new (to them) small brand. It tells them you are serious, and you are obviously better than all of the stufg on Aliexpress, every ad they have pop up on IG for a brand they have not heard of, etc....you are invested in producing and improving quality. That relevance is universal


That's one way to look at it, and logically, it's valid.

On the other hand...

One of the reasons I don't like talking about my future production plans too far in advance is that I worry it will hurt sales of what we currently have available.

I mean, if you know there's a new color of the Antilles coming, one you like more than the current colors, how likely are you to buy one of the current versions, for sale right now?

Even if you like both, maybe you'll hold off, and wait to see the new color when it drops in 3 months, or 6 months, or however long it takes my vendors to get it to us.

Maybe by then, your refrigerator will need to be replaced, your car will need repairs, or your old lady will be pregnant, and you won't be buying any new watches.

"Constant improvement" sounds like a virtue, and it is, when you buy a software license. It's nice to know the developers will push out those updates every so often.

But with a physical product, it might lead someone to think it would be better to wait and see what the new and improved version looks like.

I'm actually doing the opposite. I want people to understand that even though we're focused on quality, the product is as good as it's going to get, at the current price. Any further improvements will only come with a price increase.

Furthermore, there's no guarantee the "new and improved" version will extend to whatever design you like now.

Yes, we might improve the 40mm Subs, but we'll never make the Tikuna again, so don't stop yourself from buying that last piece, thinking we'll make more, in the v.2 case. We won't.

I want everyone to understand - if you see something you like, better get it while you can. Odds are, there isn't a "better" version coming.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> That's one way to look at it, and logically, it's valid.
> 
> On the other hand...
> 
> ...


Completely get it. I was talking backward looking to build your "commitment to quality" story. Foreshadowing would surely slow sales of existing inventory

This is all too much like work, Doc....what watch you wearing today?

And to be even less relevant

Beer or wine?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I thought about this very topic when I read this thread earlier today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oof. I honestly hadn't seen that, and my earlier post wasn't a veiled reference to it, I swear.

But, as long as the cat and the genie are out of the bag and bottle, respectively...

I see this frequently enough - it's lazy thinking in product development, born of lazy thinking when it comes to branding and marketing.

Someone gets it into their head that a watch made of 904L will automatically sell, very well. Once they're fixated on that as their core concept, they tend to overlook the importance of full-fledged product development, and promotion.

I'd advise any brand owner to stop and ask these questions before hanging their hat on some gimmick, like 904L steel, or "extra-super-duper" AR, or whatever...

1. Are you 100% positive that the gimmick you're planning to promote has a true advantage over the more ubiquitous alternatives? I.e., are you certain 904L is better for a watch than 316L? Is 10 layers of AR necessarily better than 2?

2. Can you explain, or even better, *PROVE* the advantage, simply, briefly, in a persuasive, logical way? Or are you depending on people to simply believe it's better, either because it's simply "different", or because you're hoping to ride some other brand's coat-tails?

3. Will customers understand it, agree with you, and see enough value in it to rationalize paying more, specifically, as much more as you'll need to charge to make the choice feasible?

4. Are you planning on making the gimmick integral to your brand, meaning, will every product you produce use it? If not, how will you explain that to customers? If you plan to convince customers 904L steel is the superior material for your inaugural model, how will you explain when you don't use it for subsequent product releases? If "tegimented submarine steel" is best, and that's your thing - why doesn't every model use it?

5. Take away the gimmick - does the product still hold up, and stand on its own? If someone doesn't care about the gimmick, is the design still strong, does the price still seem fair, is the quality there, etc?

If a brand can positively say their material or component choice is objectively superior to the alternatives, and persuasively explain why, and customers see value in it, and the brand intends to use it consistently, and the product still stands up well on its own, even if they didn't, then I say go for it.

Otherwise, I say skip it, and focus instead on doing solid product development, and solid promotion. No gimmick is going to sell a product that is fundamentally weak, and poorly promoted.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Completely get it. I was talking backward looking to build your "commitment to quality" story. Foreshadowing would surely slow sales of existing inventory
> 
> This is all too much like work, Doc....what watch you wearing today?
> 
> ...


Horizontally striped shirt (because even vertical stripes aren't slimming enough to make me look thin, and I knew I wasn't going anywhere today, anyway), and khaki cargo shorts (not that I needed to put anything into any of my 7 pockets).

I didn't put shoes or socks on today. Just less laundry for me to do this coming weekend. Because I care about the environment. By decreasing the waste water created when I do laundry, I'm offsetting the cow flatulence I contribute to by eating cheeseburgers. It's a win-win for everyone.

Neither beer nor wine for me, thanks. I prefer cider, or vodka-tonics. But if beer and wine are my only choices, then beer, I guess.


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## tsleniha (Apr 24, 2021)

I'm looking around to buy a NTH Oberon 1, the one with the Mercedes handset. With all the inventory listed above, perhaps someone will want to depart with one of this older model. Date or No Date, either is fine.

Message me if you have one not getting used. Maybe I can help fund your upgrade.


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

Been wanting to say this for a while but shout out to Doc and co for making this arguably the most educational yet entertaining thread.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> Been wanting to say this for a while but shout out to Doc and co for making this arguably the most educational yet entertaining thread.


Right?!?!?

Show me one other place on the internet where you can get "customer abuse", entertainment, and education, on the same page.

I'll wait...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone looking for that one-of-a-kind DLC no-date Scorpene?

I added it to the website today. Photos by watchmaker Dan. Illustrations by Rusty (who else?).

On its way to our warehouse now. Should be ready to ship before the end of the week, probably sooner.









Scorpène - Black - DLC, No Date


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Horizontally striped shirt (because even vertical stripes aren't slimming enough to make me look thin, and I knew I wasn't going anywhere today, anyway), and khaki cargo shorts (not that I needed to put anything into any of my 7 pockets).
> 
> I didn't put shoes or socks on today. Just less laundry for me to do this coming weekend. Because I care about the environment. By decreasing the waste water created when I do laundry, I'm offsetting the cow flatulence I contribute to by eating cheeseburgers. It's a win-win for everyone.
> 
> Neither beer nor wine for me, thanks. I prefer cider, or vodka-tonics. But if beer and wine are my only choices, then beer, I guess.


Anti-cargo-shorts people do not understand.

Do you have foaming bug killer than sprays 20' and can cover a car because you need it right now? No. You have it for WHEN the mutant wasps arrive (or you want to make sure your phobia pest of choice is quadruply dead)

Does one need a Jeep on 44's to get to the grocery store daily? No. They have it for for day they need to overcome a mud slide for milk and bread.

Does one need a shotgun with a combination of slugs and 00 to kill a single animal smaller than an elephant? No. But you never know when you will need to shoot through a door to end a zombie.

Did Richard Branson need to go to space? No. But he did beat the other billionaires

Cargo shorts are not because one needs 12 pockets daily. They are for that day you win the slot jackpot on your way home and need to carry $3,492.25 in coins in your pockets.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Anti-cargo-shorts people do not understand.
> 
> Do you have foaming bug killer than sprays 20' and can cover a car because you need it right now? No. You have it for WHEN the mutant wasps arrive (or you want to make sure your phobia pest of choice is quadruply dead)
> 
> ...


I also own regular, 4-pocket khaki shorts. I'm just not wearing them today.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I also own regular, 4-pocket khaki shorts. I'm just not wearing them today.
> 
> View attachment 15995074


I'm more of a cut off jorts kinda guy.

Oh...

And that is probably the most successful use of that meme I have ever seen


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of foaming bug-killer...

My younger son returned from a week in the Outer Banks on Saturday. I told him and his older brother it would be their task to clean up the mess in our garage from the exploded spray can of foam insulation.

I'm still shocked neither of them argued with me about it. If I ever needed proof I was living in a simulation, there it is.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Random shout-out to whoever did this...
> 
> View attachment 15994903
> 
> ...


I'd say abrasive. 
Not abusive.



docvail said:


> Why does Rolex use it? I suspect because the higher nickel content makes it more blingtastic


It's exactly that.

I wouldn't go as far as to say 904 is _inferior_, but it _is_ softer. The "more corrosion resistant" crap is a solution to a problem that no one has.

Most potential watch buyers arent gonna do research into the hardness of the metals used. They just see 904L and go "hey! Rolex uses that stuff, must be good!".

But my secondary hobby of knives has taught me quite a bit about the minute differences of specific steels.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Ball watch co started using 904L. I have one and it is a scratch magnet. It wouldn’t be annoying if the finish was brushed, but polished?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Rhorya said:


> Ball watch co started using 904L. I have one and it is a scratch magnet. It wouldn't be annoying if the finish was brushed, but polished?


See, that's the thing with 904. If you brush it, you've defeated the _main_ purpose of using it.

It's used first and foremost because it can take a higher polish. Full stop.

Edit: and to the untrained eye, the difference is pretty effin minuscule.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'd say abrasive.
> Not abusive.


Beards are abrasive.

Just sayin'...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I wouldn't go as far as to say 904 is _inferior_, but it _is_ softer. The "more corrosion resistant" crap is a solution to a problem that no one has.
> 
> Most potential watch buyers arent gonna do research into the hardness of the metals used. They just see 904L and go "hey! Rolex uses that stuff, must be good!".
> 
> But my secondary hobby of knives has taught me quite a bit about the minute differences of specific steels.


I said 904L is inferior, i_n the specific application of making a watch_, because it costs more, but doesn't have any practical (read: "utility") advantages over 316L.

It isn't harder. It's softer. Its only utility advantages are that it's more corrosion resistant (but much more than what's needed for any watch, and 316L isn't deficient in that regard), and is more reflective when polished (at the cost of being easier to scratch, because it's softer).

I wouldn't say it's objectively inferior, regardless of the application. I'm just saying I see it as an inferior materials choice in this specific application. How a material will be used matters, when it comes to considering whether or not it SHOULD be used, i.e., is it better or worse in the proposed application?

It's the same way I feel about ceramic bezel inserts, or ceramic cases, or tritium tubes, or any number of other things some folks propose as "better". I don't think their relative advantages over the alternatives outweigh their disadvantages compared to the alternatives.

People tend to under-appreciate the value in less expensive materials which are more than good enough.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Anyone looking for that one-of-a-kind DLC no-date Scorpene?
> 
> I added it to the website today. Photos by watchmaker Dan. Illustrations by Rusty (who else?).
> 
> ...


If you are interested, but on the fence about one of these, I'd definitely advise to jump all over this...


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> People tend to under-appreciate the value in less expensive materials which are more than good enough.


That's just it. For people who are just looking for an excuse to throw money away, being more expensive is reason enough to be considered better.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> I'd say abrasive.
> Not abusive.
> 
> It's exactly that.
> ...


Just kinda joined the knaf game. Really enjoying my Vero Engineering offerings. I can vouch that the standard of 316L is similar to what M390 steel is. Dependable, reliable and looks good. Not necessarily bling

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Dependable, reliable and looks good. Not necessarily bling
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Reliability while looking good is definitely in my wheelhouse. I like things that are like that.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> If you are interested, but on the fence about one of these, I'd definitely advise to jump all over this...
> 
> View attachment 15995777


Unnggghhh... See, I kinda would love to have a Scorpene black dial, and it seems this is the only one in the world up for sale. But I don't want it in DLC.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> If you are interested, but on the fence about one of these, I'd definitely advise to jump all over this...
> 
> View attachment 15995777


Is, dial gray or is that lighting?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Unnggghhh... See, I kinda would love to have a Scorpene black dial, and it seems this is the only one in the world up for sale. But I don't want it in DLC.


Nice "The Room" meme. My older son absolutely loves that movie. I haven't been able to make myself watch it, but I highly recommend "The Disaster Artist", about the making of the film. James Franco is brilliant as Tommy Wiseau.

There are still Nomads available at IntoWatch, in S. Korea. No-dates only. All stainless.

If you just despise the 12-hour bezel, we sell the 60-minute version (and all the other insert versions) on the NTH site.









인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> Is, dial gray or is that lighting?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Just the lighting. Black dial is black.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Just the lighting. Black dial is black.
> 
> View attachment 15995891


Thought so. Ty

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> Just kinda joined the knaf game. Really enjoying my Vero Engineering offerings. I can vouch that the standard of 316L is similar to what M390 steel is. Dependable, reliable and looks good. Not necessarily bling
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


 M390 is a great knife steel. The Microtech I've got in my pocket is 204P, which essentially M390 from a different manufacture.

On my belt though I've got my Spyderco Mule Team made out of Maxamet steel. Stupid hard steel to hold an edge for a stupid long time.

If you delve into sharpening your own blades, be aware you'll need SiC stones for harder steels.


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

So 904L is shiny and marks easily. I don't want to sound like I wear a tinfoil hat, but isn't that rather _practical_ from Rx perspective? Shinier = better (if you are selling to folks who want bling), softer = better (if your ADs like the chance to resell to clients, or charge for cosmetic repairs). It's a poor choice for a watch that works for a living, but for boardroom divers and poolside display, glitter is good.

No?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Ozludo said:


> So 904L is shiny and marks easily. I don't want to sound like I wear a tinfoil hat, but isn't that rather _practical_ from Rx perspective? Shinier = better (if you are selling to folks who want bling), softer = better (if your ADs like the chance to resell to clients, or charge for cosmetic repairs). It's a poor choice for a watch that works for a living, but for boardroom divers and poolside display, glitter is good.
> 
> No?


No, no, no&#8230;we all know ANYTHING that costs more is better! Just ask the Jones'&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ozludo said:


> So 904L is shiny and marks easily. I don't want to sound like I wear a tinfoil hat, but isn't that rather _practical_ from Rx perspective? Shinier = better (if you are selling to folks who want bling), softer = better (if your ADs like the chance to resell to clients, or charge for cosmetic repairs). It's a poor choice for a watch that works for a living, but for boardroom divers and poolside display, glitter is good.
> 
> No?


From that perspective, yes, exactly right.

It's just not the NTH perspective.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> No, no, no&#8230;we all know ANYTHING that costs more is better! Just ask the Jones'&#8230;


Which Joneses?

Dave's or Bill's?

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Which Joneses?
> 
> Dave's or Bill's?
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.












Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I find it interesting when people who cheer for 904 over 316 later post their bronze or brass watches. 

So you choose 904 because it is ultra corrosion resistant....and then buy a watch that corrodes while you sleep?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I find it interesting when people who cheer for 904 over 316 later post their bronze or brass watches.
> 
> So you choose 904 because it is ultra corrosion resistant....and then buy a watch that corrodes while you sleep?


How dare you come on a watch forum and point out the illogical?


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Which Joneses?
> 
> Dave's or Bill's?
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


These Joneses! - check it out on YouTube&#8230;more about life in general, but fits watches too!
*Don't Let The Joneses Get You Down*
The Temptations

Verse 1]
Oh, people gather round me
This is to who it may concern
I'm not tryin' to run your life
_But you're never too old to learn_
Stop worryin' about your neighbors
And the fancy things they've got
'Cause if you do you'll find it's true
You're gonna wind up on the spot, oh

[Chorus]
Don't let the Jones, don't let the Jones
Don't let the Joneses get you down, woo, one more time
Don't let the Jones, don't let the Jones
Don't let the Joneses get you down, whoa, down
Ooh, hoo, hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo

[Verse 2]
Huh, you may not believe it
But nine times out of ten it's true
The people you're tryin' to keep up with
_Are tryin' to keep up, too_
Remember that old sayin'; "All that glitters ain't gold"
Take heed, don't ignore it, and to your money tightly hold, oh

[Chorus]
Don't let the Jones, don't let the Jones
Don't let the Joneses get you down whoa, down
(Here me now now)
Don't let the Jones, don't let the Jones
Don't let the Joneses get you down, whoa, down


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Which Joneses?
> 
> Dave's or Bill's?
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Don't attempt to try and keep up with me, as I have no idea which way I'm going...

Completely unrelated: How does one tag a thread, anyway? I looked and can't find a way to do that. I have some tags that need tagging. Is it a "premium" thing?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Don't attempt to try and keep up with me, as I have no idea which way I'm going...
> 
> Completely unrelated: How does one tag a thread, anyway? I looked and can't find a way to do that. I have some tags that need tagging. Is it a "premium" thing?


If only a moderator looked into this thread every so often, to make sure we're behaving...

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On the real...

Watchmaker Dan hasn't been on the forums much lately. I'm not sure I mentioned this here, because I'm not sure how he'd feel about me discussing his bizniss, but eff it...

He's going into the hospital for surgery on a herniated disk tomorrow. He's been in pain, a lot of it, for months, but he's always cowboy'd up whenever I needed him to, getting every repair and every bit of QC done. 

I'm sure y'all will join me in wishing him well and/or praying for a successful surgery, and a speedy recovery.

The timing could not be worse for NTH. I was up in his shop today, helping to get the first half of the v.2 Subs packed up to ship to our retailers. The rest should be here in about 10 days. No idea who'll be doing QC on those. I seriously think I forget how.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)




----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

As to Dan, wish him a speedy recovery


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> On the real...
> 
> Watchmaker Dan hasn't been on the forums much lately. I'm not sure I mentioned this here, because I'm not sure how he'd feel about me discussing his bizniss, but eff it...
> 
> ...


I do remember you recently bringing up that he had upcoming surgery and has been battling through some pretty severe pain.

Best of luck to him amd the surgery team tomorrow.

As for the QC. I'm sure you'll do fine. Like riding a bike, yeah?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Watchmaker Dan, get well soonest! If I buy anymore NTH, I need them properly regulated!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Hope Dan a speedy and no more painting necessary recovery! 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Actually, maybe I'm wrong about all of that. Maybe I'm thinking too much about the more knowledgeable customers, and not enough about the less-knowledgeable ones, the ones who might be impressed reading about "Viton Seals!" and "Rhodium-Plated Markers!"
> 
> It's just not in my nature to automatically promote everything as if it's "special" in some way. I think the product is very good. I think it speaks for itself. I think we do enough talking about it, and there's a danger in over-selling it.
> 
> ...


im probably one of the less knowledgeable, at least in the hobby. I like seeing the buzzwords if they mean something. I tend to go with seeing what i like and off the spec sheet then pull up a youtube review or two to try to see the watch thats not a marketing photo, and try to get an idea about those details.

The swiftsure blue has me sold, the v2 baracudda looks excellent and has some case and bracelet details i like from the 2k1 subs. The watches have a real real nice design i can just stare at and im loving the dietails to the case, endlink integration and so on. It looks like its gonna feel as good as it looks. I can dork out on information to my hearts content here if i wanna, which i probably will.

i really dont know which one i like more and the release of the baracuda is lining up with a ton of available funds so if i can snag one no date on the oyster bracelet ill probably do that. If it doesnt work out i really really like the blue swift sure and i wont feel like ive missed out. Heres hoping the V.2's drop on the 22nd so i dont miss out and i dont have to wait long!

no to mention those other models i see here, the brownish yellow and the green, named for islands i think? i dont really wanna know cause theyve really grown on me, seeing members posts and they are stunners. Its frustrating seeing more than one model id like to have from a company at once but somehow i will survive.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> As to Dan, wish him a speedy recovery


Echo this


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> im probably one of the less knowledgeable, at least in the hobby. I like seeing the buzzwords if they mean something. I tend to go with seeing what i like and off the spec sheet then pull up a youtube review or two to try to see the watch thats not a marketing photo, and try to get an idea about those details.
> 
> The swiftsure blue has me sold, the v2 baracudda looks excellent and has some case and bracelet details i like from the 2k1 subs. The watches have a real real nice design i can just stare at and im loving the dietails to the case, endlink integration and so on. It looks like its gonna feel as good as it looks. I can dork out on information to my hearts content here if i wanna, which i probably will.
> 
> ...


This green one? 









The blue Swifty ain't got nothin on the polar though... 









Old school is great too....

















The only reason I'm leaving the DLC Vino Rosso out is because for some reason I seem to have not taken a close up of it.

Ah screw it. 









If you can't tell.... I'm trying to be an enabler here.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

i wanna say again i really like that you dont use ceramic bezels, i like mine enough on my steinhart but even with the etched markers it gets washed out in reflection. Sometimes it all looks really good and sometimes its just too much reflection, everything shines and it can be distracting.

I really really like the way your bezels are done, well finished but visible.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

MrDisco99 said:


> That's just it. For people who are just looking for an excuse to throw money away, being more expensive is reason enough to be considered better.


That DLC Scorpene is a killer watch. Congrats.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> This green one?
> View attachment 15997128
> 
> 
> ...


yep, that green guy, the other versions all look amazing on here, didnt grab my attention on the website at all and i dont wanna know anything more about them lol!

i really like the cuda packing C3 lume and the size is great. I've never seen a gilt dial before so i wanna see it, looks great. From the sounds of things its release is gonna line up with my next paycheck which will be close to three times the normal check! If they all get snapped up before then i still like the swift so much ill just buy it. Id want specifically the oyseter no date and i suspect ill have a decent opportunity to buy one and if i dont the swift will be in stock.

The blue swift is just the color i prefer, the white doesnt motivate me enough to buy it.

The others you posted are nice but really just help me with my current interests from nth, cause though im not interested they look really well done.

As much as youre enabling im pretty damn certain ill be making a purchase next thursday, youre selling the sold


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> yep, that green guy, the other versions all look amazing on here, didnt grab my attention on the website at all and i dont wanna know anything more about them lol!
> 
> i really like the cuda packing C3 lume and the size is great. I've never seen a gilt dial before so i wanna see it, looks great. From the sounds of things its release is gonna line up with my next paycheck which will be close to three times the normal check! If they all get snapped up before then i still like the swift so much ill just buy it. Id want specifically the oyseter no date and i suspect ill have a decent opportunity to buy one and if i dont the swift will be in stock.
> 
> ...


Then put your name on the waitlist. John will email you as soon as you can send him the moola.








V2 Barracuda Vintage Black - No Date - Oyster


Don't think of it as retro. The NTH Subs are our tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period. Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic, rugged style...




watchgauge.com


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Then put your name on the waitlist. John will email you as soon as you can send him the moola.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


already on the list! got on it when i was reading this thread last week and thought son of a ***** he got me good on the v.2! I have seen the last one and liked it then realized it would be difficult to find and timing that with the free money to do so is a chore i dont enjoy. i like finding stuff i like in stock or easier to find. Seeing that limited release and seeing that it will likely line up with the 22nd is a great stroke of luck for me on top of all the extra overtime (36 hours, could be 40) and a $1k bonus. Gonna buy a watch replace my drier and huck the rest that **** into savings. Figure ill buy a few cigars also

i gots a WE Eidolon in my pocket sporting that 20cv! Its not released yet i think, but its a small front flipper liner lock with an integral carbon fiber handle. super slick


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Wishing Dan a very speedy recovery, at least no more back pain. Been there.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

No more back pain for Dan, and a resolution for your QC needs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i wanna say again i really like that you dont use ceramic bezels, i like mine enough on my steinhart but even with the etched markers it gets washed out in reflection. Sometimes it all looks really good and sometimes its just too much reflection, everything shines and it can be distracting.
> 
> I really really like the way your bezels are done, well finished but visible.


I honestly never thought about the relative legibility of ceramic vs steel for a bezel insert, because you're the first person I can remember mentioning it. My gut tells me that it wouldn't make a persuasive argument for anyone who preferred ceramic, but for me, it's nice to know there's another advantage, even if I never realized it, and may not ever mention it.

Though, now that I've said that, my gut also tells me I'll almost certainly throw it into the mix, the next time I have to explain why we don't use ceramic.

Then again (on second thought), while most ceramic bezels seem to have a glossy finish, which I hate, they can be given a brushed, or matte (blasted) finish, the same way our steel bezels can be finished. I've seen blasted ceramic bezels, and the appearance reminded me a lot (too much) of a chalkboard. But brushed didn't look bad at all, IMO.

So, maybe I won't bring up legibility, and will just stick with my usual reasoning - ceramic bezels can break, steel bezels won't.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Please, keep the steel bezel.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I honestly never thought about the relative legibility of ceramic vs steel for a bezel insert, because you're the first person I can remember mentioning it. My gut tells me that it wouldn't make a persuasive argument for anyone who preferred ceramic, but for me, it's nice to know there's another advantage, even if I never realized it, and may not ever mention it.
> 
> Though, now that I've said that, my gut also tells me I'll almost certainly throw it into the mix, the next time I have to explain why we don't use ceramic.
> 
> ...


I much prefer Steel/Alum bezel inserts! Unless its a flat finished ceramic, but still. I hate the shiny nature, and high cost of replacement (my SMPc ceramic bezel cost me $500 to replace), I think the NTH sub bezels has the perfect finish that doesnt get washed out in the the sun. and doesnt look cheap like some aluminum inserts can.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Also, I wish Dan a speedy recovery! And I hope his pain goes away! Dan did a great job fixing my Amphion, and he has my respect. Best wishes buddy!


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## pichi826 (Jul 13, 2021)

JLS36 said:


> First photo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good looking watch there. 👍


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

True story -

I recently joined a gym and started working out again, after about a ten-year layoff. Every time I work out, I'm super-sore for 2-3 days, no matter what. Saturday was leg and core (abs and lower back) day.

Yesterday Dan called to tell me that the leather travel cases we've been waiting on had just been delivered, finally - all 8 large and heavy boxes of them. And while he'd finished QC on the first batch of v.2 Subs we received, he didn't think he'd be able to get them all boxed up to ship to our retailers before his surgery today, which would be a problem.

And I didn't want Dan carrying all the travel cases inside on his own, so I grabbed my 15 year old (who we call "Man-Child", because he got hairy all over and shot up in height when he was barely 12, and who is now taller than me), and hustled up to Dan's place to help.

Also - both he and Dan play guitar and collect records. The non-business half of Dan's workshop features his guitar and vinyl collections.

Plus, since Dan and his wife don't have kids, Dan's been able to enjoy ownership of some other toys I knew my kid would like seeing - a small collection of motorcycles, and my son's dream-car, a Jeep Wrangler set up for off-road fun.

And, since he lives way out in the middle of nowhere, he's got his own target-shooting range in the backyard. Dan's place is like the Steve McQueen version of the Neverland Ranch - paradise for a 15 year old boy.

Anyway, there's Dan, with a herniated disk, stoically plowing his way through the pain, and there I am, not really thinking, complaining about my back being sore from working out.

Dan starts breaking my balls about it, right in front of my kid, who - big surprise, considering he's 15, and my son - is an incorrigible smarta$$.

For a brief moment, he was truly in heaven.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pichi826 said:


> Good looking watch there. 👍


Happy speed-posting, noob!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> True story -
> 
> I recently joined a gym and started working out again, after about a ten-year layoff. Every time I work out, I'm super-sore for 2-3 days, no matter what. Saturday was leg and core (abs and lower back) day.
> 
> ...


Hahaha I can relate, my 15 year old son has started to break my balls now too... testing the waters as they say...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

All good wishes to Dan, and here's to a speedy recovery. After which, I volunteer to be adopted by him...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Hahaha I can relate, my 15 year old son has started to break my balls now too... testing the waters as they say...


I know it's nature's way, the young lion testing the old lion, gradually pushing towards the day he takes over the pride, and the old lion goes off into the Savannah to die alone.

But I swear my kid's on some sort of accelerated, advanced smart-aleck track. Partly because he gets it honestly (from me), but also because he's been so big compared to other kids his age (and even a lot of older kids, including his older brother) for so long, he's mostly been able to get away with being an a-hole to everyone.

The one time he got his comeuppance was when not one but two kids jumped him on his way home from school, and even then, the cowards attacked him from behind, one of them sucker-punching him to kick things off.

Obviously, as a parent, I was incensed. But since my mouth got me into a lot of fights as a kid (don't everyone gasp in surprise), I was hoping the beat-down he took would teach him the value of knowing when to keep it zipped.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> But since my mouth got me into a lot of fights as a kid (don't everyone gasp in surprise), *I was hoping the beat-down he took would teach him the value of knowing when to keep it zipped.*


Um... so wait, are you implying that you are more circumspect nowadays than you may have been in the past...? 🤣


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I have in the past extolled the virtues of the 2K1 Thresher.

I love the fine crown guards, the faceted case, the location of the date window and how it doesn't eliminate a lume plot, the dial design and simplicity, drilled lugs, and the extremely well-executed bracelet. The bezel is just great and varies from very dark blue to black to a luminescent blue.










Speaking of the bezel, the action has really improved, which is remarkable since it was so good to begin with. Steel bezels finished in DLC are really the best followed by anodized aluminum. A third is a sapphire bezel and a distant fourth is ceramic on anything but a fashion or luxury watch.

It really is a great watch. It started out about +5-7 seconds a day but now after a few months, it's shifted to 0 to -2 seconds a day. Maybe I have Dan to thank for this? I don't really believe in "break in" or "run in" for movements as manufacturers couldn't state timing expectations unless they let each movement "run in" but here I have a watch with a off the shelf movement that's pretty much dead on. I don't bother with actual timing tools and all my timing specs are based on observation only.

I'm thrilled with the NTH product. So are two of my friends who have purchased three watches between them. I only have one and I want to remedy that. Just hoping for that Santa Fe.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Just noticed this thread has exceeded 8,000 posts. I think that's pretty impressive.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I know it's nature's way, the young lion testing the old lion, gradually pushing towards the day he takes over the pride, and the old lion goes off into the Savannah to die alone.
> 
> But I swear my kid's on some sort of accelerated, advanced smart-aleck track. Partly because he gets it honestly (from me), but also because he's been so big compared to other kids his age (and even a lot of older kids, including his older brother) for so long, he's mostly been able to get away with being an a-hole to everyone.
> 
> ...


my sons mouth is orders of magnitude larger than his body lol, I know that will get him in some scary situations at some point. My son is pretty small for his age, maybe 5'5" 99 pounds.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I know it's nature's way, the young lion testing the old lion, gradually pushing towards the day he takes over the pride, and the old lion goes off into the Savannah to die alone.
> 
> But I swear my kid's on some sort of accelerated, advanced smart-aleck track. Partly because he gets it honestly (from me), but also because he's been so big compared to other kids his age (and even a lot of older kids, including his older brother) for so long, he's mostly been able to get away with being an a-hole to everyone.
> 
> ...


Just to make you feel better, mine are 40 (forty) and 34 (thirty four). Though both are daughters, it gets Zero better over the years&#8230;OBVIOUSLY they've learned way more than us in about half the amount of time we older folks have been living and learning!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Happy speed-posting, noob!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Antilles lace&#8230;and a pretty face&#8230;
And a croco strap hangin' down
A wiggle in her crown and an accurate movement
Make those hands spin around

Ain't nothing in the world like a big-eyed diver
To make me act so funny, MAKE ME SPEND MY MONEY
Make me feel real loose like a long necked goose
Like a watch, oh baby, that's a watch I like!

Original lyrics courtesy of the Big Bopper (Chantilly Lace)


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I honestly never thought about the relative legibility of ceramic vs steel for a bezel insert, because you're the first person I can remember mentioning it. My gut tells me that it wouldn't make a persuasive argument for anyone who preferred ceramic, but for me, it's nice to know there's another advantage, even if I never realized it, and may not ever mention it.
> 
> Though, now that I've said that, my gut also tells me I'll almost certainly throw it into the mix, the next time I have to explain why we don't use ceramic.
> 
> ...


I had a ginault ocean rover and the domed crystal and aluminum bezel was amazing, super legible.

The new one with ceramic just looks worse to me. Washes out, thank god the marking are etched. Steinhart used to not etch the bezels and still don't for the double blue and it looks damn near impossible to read.

If I can't read it then it doesn't look good.

It's another on of those upgrades with questionable worth as you mentioned

I also find that the aluminum or steel bezels look better cause they also present their color more consistently vs being washed out

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

pichi826 said:


> Good looking watch there.


Vail's finest work right there

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

josiahg52 said:


> I have in the past extolled the virtues of the 2K1 Thresher.
> 
> I love the fine crown guards, the faceted case, the location of the date window and how it doesn't eliminate a lume plot, the dial design and simplicity, drilled lugs, and the extremely well-executed bracelet. The bezel is just great and varies from very dark blue to black to a luminescent blue.
> 
> ...


doc, I think you may have answered this previously but cant remember&#8230; any plans to scale down the 2k1 designs to the v2 sub case?


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

josiahg52 said:


> I have in the past extolled the virtues of the 2K1 Thresher.
> 
> I love the fine crown guards, the faceted case, the location of the date window and how it doesn't eliminate a lume plot, the dial design and simplicity, drilled lugs, and the extremely well-executed bracelet. The bezel is just great and varies from very dark blue to black to a luminescent blue.
> 
> ...


The case finish with that facet looks divine. The watch looks super good. If the Swift didn't exist then I'd be between the thresher and the upcoming v2 cudda on what to get.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> Just noticed this thread has exceeded 8,000 posts. I think that's pretty impressive.


And this is the third or fourth thread in the series....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Um... so wait, are you implying that you are more circumspect nowadays than you may have been in the past...? 🤣


Believe it or not, yes.

When I was little, I ran my mouth way too much, considering I was usually the smallest kid in any group, and didn't know how to fight. I had an older cousin who would beat the crap out of me on an almost weekly basis. The only fights I won were those when I threw all caution to the wind, and went full spaz.

As I got older, I gradually learned the value of keeping my smarta$$ remarks to myself, but even after I stopped running my mouth, I still seemed to attract bullies and other smarta$$es. They'd run their mouths at me, I'd eventually say something back, usually something smarter, then the shoving would start, and eventually, hands were thrown. I won some, and lost some.

Eventually I took up kickboxing, just to improve my record. Ironically, that gave me the confidence I needed to NOT fight. I stopped caring about other dudes running their mouths at me. And by that time, most guys who would have run their mouths realized I would fight anyone, of any size, at any time, without hesitation. So my fighting became much less frequent by the time I finished high school.

By college, and then the army, it was pretty rare. The only fights I got into were with guys who made it very clear they would never leave me alone until I gave them the beat-down they were demanding. I didn't typically bother saying much. I figured, if we'd be throwing hands eventually, no sense in wasting my breath. I'd just let the guy run his mouth until he put hands on me, and then it was on.

As a courtesy to another medic in my platoon, I did give him two stern warnings, the second of which punctuated by me hip-tossing him, judo-style, into a set of bleachers. But he was just too dense to see the bleak future awaiting him if he didn't chill the eff out.

At the end of our last day of work before our unit shut down for Christmas break, he decided to insult my wife, in front of a dozen other dudes we worked with, as he was walking into the barracks, and I was in the parking lot, about to get into my car to go home.

That was my last fight. 1995. Aged 24. The guys who lived in the barracks, and those who followed me in from the parking lot, were shown what "wall-to-wall counseling" should look like.

When I returned to work from Christmas break, my company commander caught up to me in the chow line.

"You know I heard what you did to Dwyer, Vail. I still owe you a stern talking to."

"Yes, sir. You know he had it coming, though, right?"

"Oh, I do. So, consider yourself talked to."

Never enjoyed under-cooked scrambled eggs more than I did that morning.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> my sons mouth is orders of magnitude larger than his body lol, I know that will get him in some scary situations at some point. My son is pretty small for his age, maybe 5'5" 99 pounds.


My 15 year old is 5'10", pushing 5'11", and probably 175, with very little body fat, and he's been taking kickboxing lessons at an MMA gym for the last year. He's also a skateboarder, so he's got thighs like tree-trunks.

We used to play-fight. I'd always win. We don't play-fight any more. I'd get hurt.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> doc, I think you may have answered this previously but cant remember&#8230; any plans to scale down the 2k1 designs to the v2 sub case?


One of us is confused.

That's what the v.2 Subs are, for the most part - a scaled-down version of the 2K1's.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Sidebar:
Personal revelation, I have never liked Natos. Tried them, just didn't like them. But I'm at the point where I'm not buying many new watches, so I'm looking to "perfect" the ones I own. Thought I'd give the elastic Marine Nationale type band a try, but before I'd spend the money on one of Erika's Originals, I figured I'd try a cheap one from the big delivery place. $15 USD.

It's awesome. I had to have the wife "custom fit" it, as it was a bit big (Erika makes hers to fit, FYI), but once we got it sized it is the most comfortable band I own. Doesn't slip, pinch, slide, or any other negative verb.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Looks perfect on that Mr. Jonez!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Glad to hear Dan is rovering.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> One of us is confused.
> 
> That's what the v.2 Subs are, for the most part - a scaled-down version of the 2K1's.


I think he meant the dial and hand designs of the Swiftsure and Thresher


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

How do you know Dan is a class act? That last response did not include 🖕...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

I actually laughed when I read Doc saying " How soon can you work" I knew he was busting balls, but it was funny. Dan's Eyeroll made me laugh too


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> I think he meant the dial and hand designs of the Swiftsure and Thresher


That does clear up my confusion...

So...I dunno. Maybe, but maybe not.

I honestly don't know how many and which 40mm Subs designs will be carried forward. Looking through the list (all 43 of them), there are only 6 or 8 that I think are worth producing again.

Would a scaled-down Swiftsure or Thresher sell any better than the others, the ones I don't think merit further production? Would they sell any better than any of the other new designs I have in mind to produce?

Maybe. Maybe not.

Is the Thresher too similar to the Nacken Modern? I think it may be. Which one should we produce, if we produce only one? Likely the Nacken, not the Thresher.

Likewise, I have a new 40mm design in mind, somewhat similar to the Swiftsure, but which I think is better, in black, and probably in blue.

Meanwhile, the white Swiftsure shares a color scheme with the Barracuda Polar White, making them a bit too similar to warrant producing both. No doubt in my mind the Barracuda wins out in a head-to-head between those two.

So...no, I doubt the Swiftsure and Thresher will be scaled down to 40mm.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> That does clear up my confusion...
> 
> So...I dunno. Maybe, but maybe not.
> 
> ...


Not that I get a vote, but some of us like numbers and not just indices like 99% of the dive watches out there have. I would take Swiftsure over Barracuda 100% of the time. Of course I don't have your sales numbers, so maybe I'm way in the minority liking numbers on some of my watch dials.

I was debating adding a black Thresher to my white Swiftsure, but I already have other divers with too similar a design. Wouldn't want the exact same dial numbers as a Swiftsure, but a Black Thresher with a 2-4-8-10 dial (date at 6 or no date) would make a nice set with my white 3, 6, 9 Swiftsure&#8230;at least in my mind. Or some other Black 2k1 model with 2-4-8-10.

Regardless, I'm sure I'll find another NTH I'll like. Was leaning toward a white Devilray, but WatchGauge doesn't have any for waitlist preorder. Thought I had seen a white one there as coming soon but was apparently hallucinating!


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I know it's nature's way, the young lion testing the old lion, gradually pushing towards the day he takes over the pride, and the old lion goes off into the Savannah to die alone.
> 
> But I swear my kid's on some sort of accelerated, advanced smart-aleck track. Partly because he gets it honestly (from me), but also because he's been so big compared to other kids his age (and even a lot of older kids, including his older brother) for so long, he's mostly been able to get away with being an a-hole to everyone.
> 
> ...


Having someone give you a good kicking when you're young, especially if you deserve it. Is one of those vital, deeply useful life lessons to have. It very much rounds out the character, gives perspective. In other words, no one is be-all and end-all, so be nice because someone bigger is always out there.

I was a gobby sh*t* as a teenager, and I very much got what was coming to me after school once._ I'd buy those guys a beer if I ever saw them now_.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

catsteeth said:


> I was a gobby sh*t* as a teenager,


Im a Gobby S**t as an adult lol


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Believe it or not, yes.
> 
> When I was little, I ran my mouth way too much, considering I was usually the smallest kid in any group, and didn't know how to fight. I had an older cousin who would beat the crap out of me on an almost weekly basis. The only fights I won were those when I threw all caution to the wind, and went full spaz.
> 
> ...


Ha! it wasnt for a fight but i was managing somewhere and an odd job no one knew how to do needed done. I was told to get a guy and he understandably didnt want to do it cause he wasnt sure if he could and didnt want to get in trouble for being made to do a bad job (the gifts of upper management). I was assured and thus he was that wouldnt happen so he gave it a shot. Well he ****ed it up like we knew would likely happen. I was told to hold him accountable which after arguing with my bosses for a few weeks over i finally talked to him.

it went something like, youll never guess that the bosses want you in trouble, after arguing it out with them they said i had to talk to you. Thats of course some ******** and back on their word so consider this the talk and dont worry about it. Nothing is going on record and i intend to forget this happened before i go to bed.

the talk was real informal, i didnt pull him into the office or anything cause i didnt want it to be or feel authoritive or punative at all. Gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> That does clear up my confusion...
> 
> So...I dunno. Maybe, but maybe not.
> 
> ...


yeah the size between the cudda and the swift isnt hanging me up between the two and if the swift was the same size it wouldnt change a thing. I like both designs very much and i think both would wear well for me.

Im basing it off my initial excitement when i saw the prior cudda and getting one easily became unrealistic and just happening across the potential release at the time funds are available to have a decent shot at getting a v2. If i missed out id just as happily order the blue swift


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Not that I get a vote, but some of us like numbers and not just indices like 99% of the dive watches out there have. I would take Swiftsure over Barracuda 100% of the time. Of course I don't have your sales numbers, so maybe I'm way in the minority liking numbers on some of my watch dials.
> 
> I was debating adding a black Thresher to my white Swiftsure, but I already have other divers with too similar a design. Wouldn't want the exact same dial numbers as a Swiftsure, but a Black Thresher with a 2-4-8-10 dial (date at 6 or no date) would make a nice set with my white 3, 6, 9 Swiftsure&#8230;at least in my mind. Or some other Black 2k1 model with 2-4-8-10.
> 
> Regardless, I'm sure I'll find another NTH I'll like. Was leaning toward a white Devilray, but WatchGauge doesn't have any for waitlist preorder. Thought I had seen a white one there as coming soon but was apparently hallucinating!


Not an argument, only responding directly to your points...

Within the 40mm Subs range, the non-numerical dial designs, led by the Näckens and Barracudas, have handily outsold the numerical designs.

However, we've not made as many of the numericals. But even breaking them down into groups, by dial design combined with handset, the pattern holds true.

Among the numerical dial designs, the Scorpènes have done the best. Much better than the Oberons, which I take as an indication that the big-number pilot style of numbering (that font, especially) is more popular than the Rollie-Explorer style.

The Tikuna also sold better than the Oberons, but still not well enough to make me think it merits being produced again.

The Nazarios have sold respectably well (almost as well as the Scorp's), especially considering that 4 of the 5 Nazario versions were sold exclusively through a single store, Watch Gauge. But I think that concept has run its course. I don't know what else we'd do with it. And I don't have any plans to make more of any of the versions we already made.

The only fully-numbered (all 12 hours) dial design we've made was the Catalina, in conjunction with the Urban Gentry. We sold 100 of those, without too much effort, but I have no doubt most of those sales were driven by TUG's rabid fan base. I understand that fully-numbered dials have their fans, but those guys would have to work very hard to persuade me to invest resources in developing another one.

To be fair, the white Swiftsure has been the best-selling version of the 2K1's. But the blue Thresher is right behind it. And I wonder if the color scheme of the white isn't the main driver of those sales. It just pops more than the black or the blue dials do.

Meanwhile - the non-numerical DevilRay has sold very well. But then again, the Azores versions of the Tropics (v.1 and v.2) generally sold better than the non-numerical Antilles versions, except for the Cointreau, which has turned into the sleeper hit no one expected. Maybe the Azores is just a better design, generally, and the Antilles is too plain?

I dunno.

For whatever reasons, the non-numerical designs just seem to be more popular, and black dials tend to sell better than white, but here and there, we'll see exceptions to those rules. I can't always explain it, just looking at the numbers.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> My 15 year old is 5'10", pushing 5'11", and probably 175, with very little body fat, and he's been taking kickboxing lessons at an MMA gym for the last year. He's also a skateboarder, so he's got thighs like tree-trunks.
> 
> We used to play-fight. I'd always win. We don't play-fight any more. I'd get hurt.


That's the thing with young people nowdays. They all gym/weight train and do a lot of mixed martial type stuff - of whatever variety.

Plus over here they listen to grime, which is all about stabbing people and selling "stuff".

I haven't got into trouble since my mid twenties of course. But unless life and loved ones were in trouble, I'm definitely of the opinion "retreat" is the best option now 🤕


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Not an argument, only responding directly to your points...
> 
> Within the 40mm Subs range, the non-numerical dial designs, led by the Näckens and Barracudas, have handily outsold the numerical designs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for breaking it down&#8230;again! Actually the 1-12 bezel on the Antilles is why I bought one to make a set with my Absinthe Azores. I think they offset each other perfectly. I had originally wanted the Cointreau but couldn't find one so went Dark Rum. Now I'm glad I did (for the great "set" aesthetic with the Absinthe).


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Ha! it wasnt for a fight but i was managing somewhere and an odd job no one knew how to do needed done. I was told to get a guy and he understandably didnt want to do it cause he wasnt sure if he could and didnt want to get in trouble for being made to do a bad job (the gifts of upper management). I was assured and thus he was that wouldnt happen so he gave it a shot. Well he ****ed it up like we knew would likely happen. I was told to hold him accountable which after arguing with my bosses for a few weeks over i finally talked to him.
> 
> it went something like, youll never guess that the bosses want you in trouble, after arguing it out with them they said i had to talk to you. Thats of course some ****** and back on their word so consider this the talk and dont worry about it. Nothing is going on record and i intend to forget this happened before i go to bed.
> 
> the talk was real informal, i didnt pull him into the office or anything cause i didnt want it to be or feel authoritive or punative at all. Gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em


Sounds like a setup. Kudos for not letting that **** roll any further downhill.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

MrDisco99 said:


> Sounds like a setup. Kudos for not letting that **** roll any further downhill.


dont make a liar out of me and dont **** with my people


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Having someone give you a good kicking when you're young, especially if you deserve it. Is one of those vital, deeply useful life lessons to have. It very much rounds out the character, gives perspective. In other words, no one is be-all and end-all, so be nice because someone bigger is always out there.
> 
> I was a gobby sh*t* as a teenager, and I very much got what was coming to me after school once._ I'd buy those guys a beer if I ever saw them now_.


Indeed.

I played Rugby my senior year of high school. There was another kid on the team, who seemed to grow eight inches one summer. He was 5'6" the last day of school one year, and 6'2" the next time we saw him, with at least 40-50 pounds of muscle packed on. Just an absolute monster, with a demeanor approaching that of a gorilla in the zoo - don't drop your baby in his cage.

One game, we were getting our butts handed to us by the other team. It wasn't unusual for fights to break out during a game, but on this day, not only were we down by a lot of points, every player on our team was getting battered and bruised out there, between the rough play, and the occasional fisticuffs leading to bench-clearing brawls.

Every player, that is, except me. I'd sprained my ankle in practice the day before, and couldn't run. I'd dressed for the game, because I was told to, but the coach knew better than to put me in, because I'd be useless.

To this day, I'm embarrassed by the amount of trash-talking I lobbed at the other team that day, while hobbling around on one leg. Finally having enough of it, the fellow described above grabbed me by my collar, to drag me back across the field. When I resisted (loudly), he told me that if I didn't shut up, he'd beat me and leave me to die right there in front of the other team's bench.

Yes, you're reading that correctly - when a brawl broke out, on the other side of the field, in front of the other team's bench, I got swept up in it, speed-hobbling my way across the field, to join my comrades getting punched in the face. I don't really know what I was thinking.

Maybe I just realized that being the only player standing on our side of the field while the rest were taking part in a melee on the opposite side wasn't a good look. I still shake my head at the pure absurdity of it.

Anyway...I shut up, immediately, and let him assist me back to our bench, where I sat and behaved myself, for the remainder of that pitiful blowout.

Anyhoo...two years ago, we had our 30-year high school reunion. And he was there (still an imposing physical specimen, with a less-than-approachable countenance). Not expecting him to punch me immediately on sight, I walked over to say hello.

I'd wanted to thank him, for a long time, not just for the lesson he taught me, but because many years later, I realized he probably saved me (and others on my team) from getting killed that day. One of the early and better lessons I'd ever gotten in true leadership.

He didn't really remember, but we had a good laugh about it.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

just got an email from watch gauge, they getting ten of the no date cuddas by friday so my odds have declined dramatically, i know theres the other vendors but my odds got slim, but this honestly makes me excited about the swift! I love the blue and the numbered markers. 

I really cant tell which one i like more.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> That's the thing with young people nowdays. They all gym/weight train and do a lot of mixed martial type stuff - of whatever variety.
> 
> Plus over here they listen to grime, which is all about stabbing people and selling "stuff".
> 
> I haven't got into trouble since my mid twenties of course. But unless life and loved ones were in trouble, I'm definitely of the opinion "retreat" is the best option now ?


I've noticed young folks seem to be much more chiseled than they were in my youth. It seems that gym membership is up, whereas sports participation is down. Appearance has taken priority over athleticism, and the valuable lessons learned in organized sports.

And, neither of my sons has ever been in a fight in school. I'm struggling to remember a single year, from K through 12, that I didn't get into at least one. I think I was suspended for fighting at least half a dozen times. Schools today are much more on top of the bullying than they were back then, obviously.

Aside from the beating he took from those two other boys, I encouraged him to take up some kind of martial arts because I believed it might help him calm down and gain some perspective, just as it did for me. So far, results seem mixed. A few months back, I struggled to put the fear of God into him, but without losing my temper, when he made an unwise crack towards me.

I don't know how many times I've tried to warn my sons about running their mouths at people, in the real world, and how that would get them into trouble eventually. I don't know if they've listened to me any more than I listened to my old man when he told me the same thing. Getting punched in the face is, unfortunately, a better teacher than most parents.

More recently, perhaps because he's not in school, he's been better behaved. I remain somewhat shocked he didn't argue when I told him he and his brother would be cleaning up the spray insulation all over our garage, nor did he balk at joining me to help at Dan's yesterday. I remain unconvinced I'm not living in a simulation.

I'm not sure he plans to stick with kickboxing. He's got his music, his friends, and a part-time job, and probably feels confident enough in his ability to defend himself that he doesn't need further training. Kickboxing techniques aren't as varied as Jiu-jitsu, and other styles. It doesn't take much "mastery" to know how to elbow a dude in the temple.

After the big blowout we had, I spoke to the guy who owns the MMA gym, to ask if he saw any signs of my son maturing, and if not, when we should expect the non-combat lessons of martial arts to start manifesting themselves around the house. He said most kids turn the corner at the one-year mark, which we're approaching soon.

Here's hoping he makes it to the corner, and turns it, before he disrespects me or his mother again. The next time could be his last.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> just got an email from watch gauge, they getting ten of the no date cuddas by friday so my odds have declined dramatically, i know theres the other vendors but my odds got slim, but this honestly makes me excited about the swift! I love the blue and the numbered markers.
> 
> I really cant tell which one i like more.


We only assembled 25 of the no-dates. Of those, John is expecting 12, and so far, we've only been able to ship him 7.

Island Watches is getting 4. Serious is getting 8. Watch Gecko, the last 1.

I wouldn't give up just yet. Stay on John's list. Island Watches doesn't keep waiting lists. And Serious will remove the VAT from the price for peeps outside the EU.

So, lemme see here...12, plus 4, plus 8...carry the two...there are 24 pieces within your grasp.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I played Rugby my senior year of high school. There was another kid on the team, who seemed to grow eight inches one summer. He was 5'6" the last day of school one year, and 6'2" the next time we saw him, with at least 40-50 pounds of muscle packed on. Just an absolute monster, with a demeanor approaching that of a gorilla in the zoo - don't drop your baby in his cage.
> 
> ...


I can totally relate to all that. I didn't know you lot played rugby over there!

I played until I was eighteen, I never had any open fights as such. It was more elbow in the face, wrenching genitals, stamping on their heads in the maul where it's out of sight stuff. Certainly if you're narked by an opposing player, opportunity presents itself. But I don't remember particularly being as bad as some of the big-temper guys.
I was open flanker because I could tackle, but give me the ball and you might as well just have thrown it away.
I loved playing, but I shot up to 6'4" and my legs never kept up, I became too slow, and a little uncoordinated.
But as open flanker I could leap the all of 2 yards, as their scrum half received the ball from their scrum down, and just with size and determination try and flatten him. Not always successfully, but often enough to keep me in place. 
But I rarely scored which flankers are supposed too. So I read the tea leaves and didn't take it on after leaving 6th form college. I windsurfed (religiously) instead.

You might like this as a military man. Rugby is taken very seriously by our armed forces. 
For sheer brutality, the services matches are unrivaled. I've never personally seen match, or any military match. But the inter-services matches are legendary, proper whispered about in dark corners levels of carnage.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Sidebar:
> Personal revelation, I have never liked Natos. Tried them, just didn't like them. But I'm at the point where I'm not buying many new watches, so I'm looking to "perfect" the ones I own. Thought I'd give the elastic Marine Nationale type band a try, but before I'd spend the money on one of Erika's Originals, I figured I'd try a cheap one from the big delivery place. $15 USD.
> 
> It's awesome. I had to have the wife "custom fit" it, as it was a bit big (Erika makes hers to fit, FYI), but once we got it sized it is the most comfortable band I own. Doesn't slip, pinch, slide, or any other negative verb.
> ...


Looks good try watch steward. I use them over Erika's now.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I can totally relate to all that. I didn't know you lot played rugby over there!
> 
> I played until I was eighteen, I never had any open fights as such. It was more elbow in the face, wrenching genitals, stamping on their heads in the maul where it's out of sight stuff. Certainly if you're narked by an opposing player, opportunity presents itself. But I don't remember particularly being as bad as some of the big-temper guys.
> I was open flanker because I could tackle, but give me the ball and you might as well just have thrown it away.
> ...


I wasn't much of a Rugby player. I made the team, and was a starting player (first at prop, then lock), because I was one of the only players who didn't drink for an hour between school and practice. It's not hard to look good when you're being compared to other teens who are half in the bag.

I believe you that the services matches are savage. When I was a medic with the Rangers, we did a jump-wing exchange with an SAS unit. A jump-wing exchange happens when one military unit jumps out of an airplane using another unit's parachutes, and vice-versa.

Our parachutes are designed to get a man and his equipment on the ground fast enough he doesn't get shot while in the air, but slowly enough he isn't injured upon landing.

In airborne school, we're taught the PLF - the parachute landing fall. Before you hit the ground, you bend your knees, lock your heels together, and upon impact, you go semi-limp, rolling onto your side, trying to make your body hit the ground - feet, knees, thigh, hips, ribs, elbow, shoulder, in that order.

Mess it up, and instead of a PLF, you'll do an FAH - feet, arse, head - no bueno.

But apparently the Brits don't mind if their men get injured on arrival, judging by how they were landing whilst using our 'chutes. They were having none of the PLF. Those crazy bastards were landing upright, in fact spread-eagle, knees locked, like our drop zone was paved with marshmallows, not a care in the world, nor a moment's thought to self-preservation.

Many of them sauntered - I mean that literally, they jauntily trotted off our drop zone - saying (I swear to God this is true), "That was fun! Can I go again?"

As I was just a medic assigned to cover the jump, in case of injury, I wasn't authorized to let them go again. We just stood there, wide-eyed, shaking our heads in disbelief, silently praying there will never be a "Revolutionary War II - Electric Boogaloo."

Meanwhile, our guys were hobbling off the DZ, swearing to the heavens that the Brits must have given us women's 'chutes, they were landing so fast and hard.

Thankfully, I didn't have to do it. I didn't really enjoy jumping with our 'chutes. I knew I'd hate jumping with theirs.

They also brought a second plane over from England, just for their beer, so they wouldn't have to drink ours.

Good times.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The perfect PLF: Feet, knees, face. Have my jump wings and an exchange at RAF Cranwell. The craziest people I've ever met, but the ones I want with me in combat. Participating in several piano burnings are some of my most memorable events.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> The perfect PLF: Feet, knees, face. Have my jump wings and an exchange at RAF Cranwell. The craziest people I've ever met, but the ones I want with me in combat. Participating in several piano burnings are some of my most memorable events.


Pfft!

Air Force...


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> We only assembled 25 of the no-dates. Of those, John is expecting 12, and so far, we've only been able to ship him 7.
> 
> Island Watches is getting 4. Serious is getting 8. Watch Gecko, the last 1.
> 
> ...


perhaps, its over $700 and odds are they wont all be bought at once, i figure i have a decent shot. I really like both the nodate designs so much though that im excited if they all get bought and my decision is made for me in that way. The blue looks gorgeous and i bet its unreal in person. But id really like to see a gilt dial which i havnt seen in person yet and one from a brand with execution like yours would be a good first experience. But every time i look at that blue swift it makes me question the cudda. The color is something real nice, like the thresher that guy just posted and i love the 3,6,9 markers and the actual numeral tie the dial to the bezel better to my eye as both have numbered markers

Im really thrilled that they both have the same case and bracelet design, just a size change. I really like the details like the polished facets to the sides of the case are real nice, the brushed finish is better imo and that adds that touch of bling. Its a detail where youre showing off imo and it shows off well. Drilled lugs too. The bracelet looks real nice, balanced, screw in links and the clasp looks good, lots of straight lines but nothing looks sharp. The continuity from case to clasp in the finish looks good and the definition where the end links meet the case is an excellent detail and works with that polished facet to make it look classier.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Pfft!
> 
> Air Force...


Hey, jump school is/was all Army. I'm a proud graduate of Ft Benning. And FWIW, we prepped for weeks as the Academy didn't want us to look bad in front of the black hats (you know who they are...). On the first morning run, we started off in that slow "airborne shuffle", but quickly talked our DI into letting us "stretch our legs". We finished the morning 5 mile run about 10 minutes ahead of those who hadn't trained at 7000' above sea level...


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

also if i go with the swift ill be checking to see if that nearly new one is there at the time.

its a nice deal, trying to leave that factor out cause i like both designs and can afford both of them


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I wasn't much of a Rugby player. I made the team, and was a starting player (first at prop, then lock), because I was one of the only players who didn't drink for an hour between school and practice. It's not hard to look good when you're being compared to other teens who are half in the bag.
> 
> I believe you that the services matches are savage. When I was a medic with the Rangers, we did a jump-wing exchange with an SAS unit. A jump-wing exchange happens when one military unit jumps out of an airplane using another unit's parachutes, and vice-versa.
> 
> ...


That really does sound like good times.

With the SAS as I'm sure you know, that's just _competitive understatement_.
Very British, again as I'm sure you knew. The more ghastly and terrified you are, the less excited and more sang-froid you behave. It's good for going over the top, 1st world war style to certain death.

Essentially a good way to behave in difficult/dangerous situations.

*EDIT*. There's a famous story from the Korean War. I've no idea how true.
There were British Units under heavy decimating attack. They were radioing for American Air support.
But because they were _seriously_ in trouble needing _immediate_ assistance, they did what they'd normally do when communicating with British air support. Namely be super casual, in inverse proportion to the danger they we're in.

But they we're radioing the Americans. The Americans being normal and sensible, didn't hear the total and utter complete panic that the British were actually communicating. They just heard it was a little tricky, not the weather for a walk sort of thing.
So they didn't go help. The story ends as you imagine. But afterwards apparently Americans went on courses to understand British communication style.
It's just a story I keep hearing.
*****

I'm not saying anything about American lager.... Nope, saying nothing. Zil, nada, big zero.
But I am a Yuge fan of your bourbon. Jim Beam is readily available here which I'm very partial too. (I should imagine I've committed some typical foreigner faux-pas, and you all think Jim Beam is the cheap stuff you give to everyone else). But I like it.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> &#8230;wrenching genitals&#8230;


So YOU'RE the reason why I can cut left better than right!

I miss those battles, but my brian, knee, thumbs, nose, and ruptured C1, are glad that the rest of me is built for couch now.

Left side, second row. 7th man. Outside Break. You know, the ones where the bloke is almost always bleeding from both nostrils.

If only we'd had baseball..

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I've noticed young folks seem to be much more chiseled than they were in my youth. It seems that gym membership is up, whereas sports participation is down. Appearance has taken priority over athleticism, and the valuable lessons learned in organized sports.


Exactly this!

Im a teacher and I tell my students I am who I am because of my bullies (the parents don't love that anecdote).

I learned many lessons about what i could say and get away with without getting my ass kicked and what I couldn't. I would've been such a bigger ass if I didn't have people bigger and stronger than me keeping me in line.

It seems a bunch of us are on the same page but it is what it is. Never thought I'd say this but .... the kids these days!!! Hahaha.

Get off my lawn!!!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> also if i go with the swift ill be checking to see if that nearly new one is there at the time.
> 
> its a nice deal, trying to leave that factor out cause i like both designs and can afford both of them


Here, this should help..


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Hey, jump school is/was all Army. I'm a proud graduate of Ft Benning. And FWIW, we prepped for weeks as the Academy didn't want us to look bad in front of the black hats (you know who they are...). On the first morning run, we started off in that slow "airborne shuffle", but quickly talked our DI into letting us "stretch our legs". We finished the morning 5 mile run about 10 minutes ahead of those who hadn't trained at 7000' above sea level...


I don't miss the daily five mile runs in the Georgia summer heat, just the 30" waist I had after 3 weeks of them.

I hadn't had a 30" waist since I wrestled at 120lbs, when I was 12. At 23 and 170, I looked carved out of wood (to quote Ed Norton in "Fight Club").

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> also if i go with the swift ill be checking to see if that nearly new one is there at the time.
> 
> its a nice deal, trying to leave that factor out cause i like both designs and can afford both of them


You don't want that nearly new Swiftsure. Its no date and its used and Doc's watchmaker isn't even in the shop to check it! Who would want that??????


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Here, this should help..
> 
> View attachment 15999177


the blue thresher the other chap posted was more tempting as far as making me think of the swift. I really like the blue and there arent a ton of pics of it and that thresher is the same blue.

The contrast to the markers on the white dial is slick and i like that was done, a little more variation from the other models than just dial color.



HammyMan37 said:


> You don't want that nearly new Swiftsure. Its no date and its used and Doc's watchmaker isn't even in the shop to check it! Who would want that??????


its been there for a little while now so id wager it was already checked.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> the blue thresher the other chap posted was more tempting as far as making me think of the swift. I really like the blue and there arent a ton of pics of it and that thresher is the same blue.
> 
> The contrast to the markers on the white dial is slick and i like that was done, a little more variation from the other models than just dial color.
> 
> its been there for a little while now so id wager it was already checked.


Has it? I wouldn't risk it. You have time... that Nearly new Swiftsure should be there a long time. Its not even that good looking


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

HammyMan37 said:


> Has it? I wouldn't risk it. You have time... that Nearly new Swiftsure should be there a long time. Its not even that good looking


its quite good looking to me, i really dont know which one i like more based on looks between the v2 cudda and the blue swift. They both do it for me so well. I'll see whats up with the cudda stock next week and go from there.

Im leaning the v2 cudda because i was quite drawn to the last one but pretty late to the party. This one i stand a real good chance of getting and its much harder to get than the swift and wont stay in stock long.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> its quite good looking to me, i really dont know which one i like more based on looks between the v2 cudda and the blue swift. They both do it for me so well. I'll see whats up with the cudda stock next week and go from there.
> 
> Im leaning the v2 cudda because i was quite drawn to the last one but pretty late to the party. This one i stand a real good chance of getting and its much harder to get than the swift and wont stay in stock long.


Yeah get the Cuda. Waaaaay better


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

HammyMan37 said:


> Yeah get the Cuda. Waaaaay better


thats the plan, money hits the account on the 22nd. No date on the oyster bracelet. Would also be my first gilt dial and ive never seen one in person.

Figure i better grab the limited one while i can since the timing should work out real nice


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> thats the plan, money hits the account on the 22nd. No date on the oyster bracelet. Would also be my first gilt dial and ive never seen one in person.
> 
> Figure i better grab the limited one while i can since the timing should work out real nice


Did you know Ive had my eye on that nearly new Swift for a couple weeks?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

HammyMan37 said:


> Did you know Ive had my eye on that nearly new Swift for a couple weeks?


I'm dying reading this exchange. He was not picking up what you were putting down.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> I'm dying reading this exchange. He was not picking up what you were putting down.


Def not! I was starting to think I may offend Doc if I went any further!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I played Rugby at SUNY Maritime, was the outside Wing. 6’-1”, 195 lbs, and could I run! That was a fun year 1983 while it lasted.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

HammyMan37 said:


> Did you know Ive had my eye on that nearly new Swift for a couple weeks?


nope im in full zombie mode, at a desk in cold a/c knocking down over time, tons of it, and sleeping three to four hours a night for most the week for the almost the second week. now. I'm just reading the words pretty literally.

When i leave tomorrow morning ill have 22 hours overtime for this week by the time the week is done, im pretty tired. In theory im just working my normal shift tomorrow but if i stay that will bring me up to 26 hours over time for the week. I'll be ending the two weeks with 37-41 hours over.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

RotorRonin said:


> I'm dying reading this exchange. He was not picking up what you were putting down.


I will re read it and have a laugh the week my schedule goes back to normal.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> I will re read it and have a laugh the week my schedule goes back to normal.


Hahaha...i was trying to sleepwalk you into not picking the Swifty. 
You getting time and a half for that OT?


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

HammyMan37 said:


> Hahaha...i was trying to sleepwalk you into not picking the Swifty.
> You getting time and a half for that OT?


yep, and theres a $1k bonus in there too!

All i got left to do is wait


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

This thread has been busy. I considered reliving my glory days, but then I realized they were pretty Mediocre too lol


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> This thread has been busy. I considered reliving my glory days, but then I realized they were pretty Mediocre too lol


Word. I'm not impressive now, but I'd never want to go back to my younger days!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Word. I'm not impressive now, but I'd never want to go back to my younger days!


I know more now and I still regularly do dumb shnit. I wouldn't be able to sleep if I knew I had to go back to younger me at some point. That guy.....only survived by the grace of God. No other explanation. Good thing I didn't have everything modern tech has to offer and none of my friends had cameras in every pocket


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> I know more now and I still regularly do dumb shnit. I wouldn't be able to sleep if I knew I had to go back to younger me at some point. That guy.....only survived by the grace of God. No other explanation. Good thing I didn't have everything modern tech has to offer and none of my friends had cameras in every pocket


WORD.


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## pichi826 (Jul 13, 2021)

docvail said:


> Happy speed-posting, noob!


LOL! got years to catch up to you brother. We all started at the beginning at one point.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> I played Rugby at SUNY Maritime, was the outside Wing. 6'-1", 195 lbs, and could I run! That was a fun year 1983 while it lasted.


There's a truth emerging from this thread. I was a hooker. Nose broken four times. Who would have guessed there were so many rugby players in here?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

No rugby in my past... 

I played hockey year round when I lived up north. When I moved to Texas(a "get in the car kid" move) the youth/rec hockey leagues were few and far between as the Stars had only been in Dallas for a few years, so hockey wasn't as widespread as it is now. 

So naturally, I went to the next most violent sport. Football. If y'all know the name Aquib Talib(super bowl ring, played with Peyton and Brady) I knocked the snot out of him on multiple occassions.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> Looks good try watch steward. I use them over Erika's now.


Which material do you prefer - they seem to have 3. I know the softest is probably least like EO - maybe on par with Mankey? - but I have a hard time deciphering which of the other two would be more like an EO strap, and if one or the other would be more or less elastic.

I have a Cincy Watch Strap elastic strap which is pretty good.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pichi826 said:


> LOL! got years to catch up to you brother. We all started at the beginning at one point.


Alright, so...if you were just speed-posting, trying to get to the 100-post minimum so you could partake in the sales forum, I doubt you'd come back to reply, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and apologize for my snark.

If it helps - your comment of "nice watch" didn't quote any other post, with a pic of any watch or otherwise, such that no one would automatically know which watch you meant. It's a common mistake for forum noobs, but especially when one is speed-posting, as "nice watch" seems like it can be posted anywhere and not draw attention.

That said - welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum (still frequently referred to as F71), and the NTH thread. Stick around, be cool to others, and you'll get along fine.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> There's a truth emerging from this thread. I was a hooker. Nose broken four times. Who would have guessed there were so many rugby players in here?


Was your nose broken before or after your pilot buddies nicknamed you "Snot", and did one have anything to do with the other?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Have any of you gents who've gotten one of the Viton straps noticed it getting 'stained' after exposure to anything? I doubt you'd see it with the black straps, but perhaps with one of the other colors?

I'm about to hit send on a reply to an email from a semi-regular poster here. His orange strap seems to have become discolored after doing some work outside, perhaps having been exposed to some sort of chemical, but he doesn't know what. He's asking if we know a good method for cleaning them.

I'm a little out of my depth. I know that among rubber compounds, Viton is formulated to be highly resistant to chemicals, so my first guess would be the strap is just dirty, and some soap and water should get it clean.

If that doesn't work, an internet search seems to indicate that Isopropyl alcohol can be used with Viton *seals*, though I've not tried it, and the straps may not be the exact same compound as that used for seals, as Viton comes in different grades, and I'm honestly unsure what grade our strap suppliers use.

It also says to NOT use methanol or acetone.

If anyone has any greater expertise or experience, please share it.


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## pichi826 (Jul 13, 2021)

docvail said:


> Alright, so...if you were just speed-posting, trying to get to the 100-post minimum so you could partake in the sales forum, I doubt you'd come back to reply, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and apologize for my snark.
> 
> If it helps - your comment of "nice watch" didn't quote any other post, with a pic of any watch or otherwise, such that no one would automatically know which watch you meant. It's a common mistake for forum noobs, but especially when one is speed-posting, as "nice watch" seems like it can be posted anywhere and not draw attention.
> 
> That said - welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum (still frequently referred to as F71), and the NTH thread. Stick around, be cool to others, and you'll get along fine.


Still trying to get the hang of this thing man. I did my research on watch forums and this one kept popping up so I decided to join. I'm a watch fan and I have a decent collection I'd like to share with you guys. I'd be lying if I said I'm not interested in the sales forums. With that being said I'm not looking to buy anything anytime soon as I have spent a lot of money in the last 10 months in watches so I need to chill for a little bit. I look forward to be a part of this watch cyber society.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Was your nose broken before or after your pilot buddies nicknamed you "Snot", and did one have anything to do with the other?


Actually, I broke my nose eight times. In addition to rugby, I was a boxer. And honestly, I didn't break my nose, somebody else did. But the "snot" nickname used as a fighter pilot was completely independent in a way. It referred to the term "snot locker", which actually was a term used when you would put the nose of the airplane towards a target. I. E. Putting him on the snot locker. I had a tendency to always point at targets (everyone was a target to me) as I was mildly over aggressive. Go figure. That and "Davy Jones locker" made for a nickname&#8230;


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

pichi826 said:


> Still trying to get the hang of this thing man. I did my research on watch forums and this one kept popping up so I decided to join. I'm a watch fan and I have a decent collection I'd like to share with you guys. I'd be lying if I said I'm not interested in the sales forums. With that being said I'm not looking to buy anything anytime soon as I have spent a lot of money in the last 10 months in watches so I need to chill for a little bit. I look forward to be a part of this watch cyber society.


Welcome to the best thread on WUS! ok, so now you have to show your collection.. lets see it !
EDIT: 2,222 posts for me on this one.. lol its all 2's.. yeah i know. but its the little things in life that entertain me now... like all 2's lol


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## pichi826 (Jul 13, 2021)

PowerChucker said:


> Welcome to the best thread on WUS! ok, so now you have to show your collection.. lets see it !
> EDIT: 2,222 posts for me on this one.. lol its all 2's.. yeah i know. but its the little things in life that entertain me now... like all 2's lol


Show it here or should I make a thread for it?? Don't wanna get negative input for posting something irrelevant to the thread.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

pichi826 said:


> Show it here or should I make a thread for it?? Don't wanna get negative input for posting something irrelevant to the thread.


This thread title could easily be "tangents", go for it


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> There's a truth emerging from this thread. I was a hooker. Nose broken four times. Who would have guessed there were so many rugby players in here?


I only tried a few times, got my arse kicked. I did not manage to start gaining weight until nearly 30. When I tried rugby I was 20, and I thought working construction had me ready. We all need humbling moments in our lives, and that was one if mine. I was working in Hawaii, and they enjoyed destroyed this tall haole.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

pichi826 said:


> Show it here or should I make a thread for it?? Don't wanna get negative input for posting something irrelevant to the thread.





Mediocre said:


> This thread title could easily be "tangents", go for it


Lol so true! post them here, we always go on our tangents, but always drift right back to NTH business. so its all good.


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## pichi826 (Jul 13, 2021)

Here you go guys. Not a huge fan of my Citizen but I've had it for a long time, it keeps time pretty accurately and it's a perpetual calendar so might as well keep it.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

pichi826 said:


> Here you go guys. Not a huge fan of my Citizen but I've had it for a long time, it keeps time pretty accurately and it's a perpetual calendar so might as well keep it.
> View attachment 16000493


Awesome collection! I love it! that Citizen looks awesome, what dont you like about it? I have an SMPc, and owned 3 Turtles, and about 8-9 SKX's, Id love a real BB (i have a homage), and id love a Sub at some point (will never happen). the Solar, Multi band G's are the way to go as well for a great tough watch! You really need an NTH Sub or 2 in there, and possibly a Devil Ray as well... just sayin..


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> This thread title could easily be "tangents", go for it


Who the @#$& are directing that @#$&*?!#$&# tangent comment at? Oh, wait&#8230;

On a lighter note, it's new watchband day from Monstraps. Didn't care for the way their green Blackbay Adjustable matched my Tropics Azores in Absinthe so I ordered one of their NATO M III in "hunter green" thinking it would match better&#8230;it did! Since I was ordering, I went ahead and ordered a Deep Blue NATO M III for my Seiko Prospex Manta Ray edition, which has sentimental value since it's the one I chose to see if I'd like automatics after only buying G-Shocks. It matches great too. So longer story longer, below is an Azores with NATO M III in hunter green, an Antilles on a Blackbay Adjustable in green, and a Seiko Prospex Manta Ray on a NATO M III in deep blue. All bands from Monstraps. I will likely pick up a black or brown NATO M III for the Antilles in the future, but need to figure out some other bands to order as they ship DHLand shipping goes down as order total goes up.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

pichi826 said:


> Here you go guys. Not a huge fan of my Citizen but I've had it for a long time, it keeps time pretty accurately and it's a perpetual calendar so might as well keep it.
> View attachment 16000493


Awesome collection. I love the citizen, gives you a lighter look. An Nth nearly new will only set you back $600. One of the Azores would look great in there


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Which material do you prefer - they seem to have 3. I know the softest is probably least like EO - maybe on par with Mankey? - but I have a hard time deciphering which of the other two would be more like an EO strap, and if one or the other would be more or less elastic.
> 
> I have a Cincy Watch Strap elastic strap which is pretty good.


I ordered the poly single pass and it feels very similar to my Erika's and at $25 I can order 3 vs 1. They also fit on my nth tikuna when I had it, like a glove.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)

I'm an extremely rare poster here but a regular constant reader of this thread.....and oh, by the way, I really dig NTH watches. My NTH collection:


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Which material do you prefer - they seem to have 3. I know the softest is probably least like EO - maybe on par with Mankey? - but I have a hard time deciphering which of the other two would be more like an EO strap, and if one or the other would be more or less elastic.
> 
> I have a Cincy Watch Strap elastic strap which is pretty good.


I have tried them all lol. Softest is Nick Mankey. Most stiff is Cincy's but can be broken in. Only thing is the Cincy version is too big for my 6.25 ish wrists. I have all the iterations and sizes of the Watch Steward. I like the minimalist than the newer "G" strap they now offer, that's just personal preference. NDC is similar and is also stiff but the way you wear them is not optimal if you like a thin profile. The elephant in the room is indeed EO. I have many iterations and keep buying more. For me they are the middle ground of not being too soft for the heavier watches, yet comfortable for me to wear day to day without much thought.

Honorable mention is Luff Watch straps because they also size to fit, these are similar to The watch steward in quality and wear.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

pichi826 said:


> Here you go guys. Not a huge fan of my Citizen but I've had it for a long time, it keeps time pretty accurately and it's a perpetual calendar so might as well keep it.
> View attachment 16000493


Nice collection! It could use an NTH Devil Ray or Tropics model!! A nice colorful dial!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I am now addicted.












Cowboytime said:


> I'm an extremely rare poster here but a regular constant reader of this thread.....and oh, by the way, I really dig NTH watches.


So, what's the opposite of a speed-poster? A slow poster? 😁


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Cowboytime said:


> I'm an extremely rare poster here but a regular constant reader of this thread.....and oh, by the way, I really dig NTH watches. My NTH collection:
> View attachment 16000783


Impressive NTH collection!!!


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Cowboytime said:


> I'm an extremely rare poster here but a regular constant reader of this thread.....and oh, by the way, I really dig NTH watches. My NTH collection:
> View attachment 16000783


Multiples of the same exact styles?


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Cowboytime said:


> I'm an extremely rare poster here but a regular constant reader of this thread.....and oh, by the way, I really dig NTH watches. My NTH collection:
> View attachment 16000783


Holy Cowboy! thats a great NTH collection!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> Multiples of the same exact styles?


You might be surprised how many people have multiple versions of the same NTH model. There's a guy who posts in our FB group who appears to have every version of the DevilRay, or damned close. I just grabbed this pic of his...










He's not the only one. There are a few guys who own 3 or 4.

I know there are at least two dozen guys out there with multiple versions of the Subs.

Back in 2015, I did some analysis on our repeat sales figures, and compared numbers with some other brand owners. I found that our repeat sales rate is unusually high. About 1 in 5 customers will buy more than one NTH (it was Lew & Huey back then, but the numbers have held, if not gotten stronger with NTH).

On average, repeat customers purchased 3 watches (this was after only 2 years in business), but there were several dozen who exceeded 5, and a dozen who seemed to buy at least one of whatever model we produced. There are guys out there who own 12-15 L&H's or NTH's.

I own 9 Subs, which is probably a few too many, but I used to own more. I've sold off at least a half dozen. I still own 2 DevilRays, down from 3. I used to have 2 Tropics. I force myself to give the prototypes of any model to Dan, to keep in the shop, so my collection doesn't get out of hand. I used to have over 30 watches, all but 2 from my brand.

Back in the Lew & Huey days, I owned 2 Riccardos, 2 Orthos, 2 Spectres, 3 Acionnas, and 2 Cerberus. Because why not own 1 of every color?

Not sure how analogous this is - but how many pairs of jeans do most guys own? Khakis? Suits? Neckties? Athletic shoes? Dress shirts? Polos? Casual shoes? Dress shoes? Belts? T-shirts?

When we find something we really like, it's not that strange to get multiple versions. I've had multiple colors of the same shoes, or shoes that are very similar. I tend to buy 2 pairs of jeans at a time. I have multiples of sweaters, shirts, and a ridiculous number of lightweight jackets. They're not all the same, but they're nonetheless redundant.

Why stop at a blue Nacken when you know a black dial will be better for some occasions, or white? It's part of the reason why we offer so many different varieties of each model. I know there are guys who will fall in love, and want more than one.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cowboytime said:


> I'm an extremely rare poster here but a regular constant reader of this thread.....and oh, by the way, I really dig NTH watches. My NTH collection:
> View attachment 16000783


Nice collection, amigo.

However, I admit I am curious why you have two Santa Cruz in there.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pichi826 said:


> Here you go guys. Not a huge fan of my Citizen but I've had it for a long time, it keeps time pretty accurately and it's a perpetual calendar so might as well keep it.
> View attachment 16000493


That is a nice, very respectable collection, if a bit "barbell" in its approach, by which I mean - you've got 3 heavy-hitters, and 4 entry-level pieces, with nothing in between.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> You might be surprised how many people have multiple versions of the same NTH model. There's a guy who posts in our FB group who appears to have every version of the DevilRay, or damned close. I just grabbed this pic of his...
> 
> View attachment 16000917
> 
> ...


I have yet to own two of the same brand at the same time. Ive come back to brands i have had cause they were great and lived up to my expectaions the first time and continue to do so. I do my research to figure if im wasting my money ahead of time or not.

Those colorful island named watches grow on me every time i see them. I kinda resent it cause im trying to mind my own business here and was mainly reading up before purchasing the swiftsure. I cant help but think one of those would look great on vacation next year or the year after in hawaii.......


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> That is a nice, very respectable collection, if a bit "barbell" in its approach, by which I mean - you've got 3 heavy-hitters, and 4 entry-level pieces, with nothing in between.
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Barbell, what a great expression. Heavy hitters at either end and nothing in-between, genius.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)

docvail said:


> Nice collection, amigo.
> 
> However, I admit I am curious why you have two Santa Cruz in there.


Thanks Doc. I have a duplicate of the Santa Cruz because its my favorite and I use the one in upper left slot as my beater. That thing has been beaten and banged around continuously. Scratched to all get out. I do much outside landscape type work and it has been banged on tractor, shovel, rocks, walls, gravel etc. It has been splashed with gas, oil, bug spray, week killer, etc. I have also dropped it a time or two. I never remove it while working. I recently replaced the bezel so now it looks much better. That thing still runs perfectly after all the abuse I lay on it. Who needs a G-shock.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Barbell, what a great expression. Heavy hitters at either end and nothing in-between, genius.


It comes from bond investing strategy.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> You might be surprised how many people have multiple versions of the same NTH model. There's a guy who posts in our FB group who appears to have every version of the DevilRay, or damned close. I just grabbed this pic of his...
> 
> View attachment 16000917
> 
> ...


It's really not hard to see (for me). When I decided to check out automatics, went with Seiko because it's a brand I knew (and had owned several throughout my life). Once I got it, I wanted to learn more about automatics and found this WUS forum. Over a few days of constant reading I learned a LOT. I also became enamored with Omega, thinking I'd want a Planet Ocean sometime soon. Shortly after that I was perusing the Shopmyexchange site (for veterans), and came across an Oris Caliber 400 at 30% off (20 + 10 for using star no interest credit promotion). I had read a lot about the Caliber 400 so thought I'd try it, plus if I didn't like it, could return locally. Received it, wore about a week straight, and was forever enamored with automatics&#8230;the +2 SPD didn't hurt, along with 120 hour reserve.

Fast forward about a month and I saw a post on WUS with an NTH picture, first I'd ever seen. Found the NTH site and saw the Tropics models, specifically the Azores. As I'd been stationed there in 95-96, obviously I was intrigued. Reviewed the specs and they seemed to be a very reasonable cost to value ratio. I wasn't familiar with Miyota movements (or really any except the Seiko 35R and Oris 400 that I owned, both very accurate. Anyway, with the 6-6 warranty, figured "why not?" Went with Absinthe as my Oris and Seiko are blue.

Watchgauge had it to me in about 3 days. Once I opened it and messed around with it, I began to realize the quality, appearance, fit and finish, were all pretty much on par with the Oris, at least externally. The next surprise came over the next week, when accuracy was just a little off the Oris&#8230;by about 3-5 spd. Really impressive for a watch 1/5 the MSRP of the Oris. So impressed, Antilles was next as I thought a matched set of tropics would be awesome&#8230;so up to two NTH.

Not two weeks later, I came across the new orange dive bands at the same time I'd been looking for a white dial watch&#8230;which WatchGauge just happened to have&#8230;the Swiftsure! Ordered both from WatchGauge KNOWING there would be ZERO QC issues. Bonus was Miyota movement, which I already knew was very accurate. I was not disappointed when the Swiftsure arrived!

Now with three NTH in a month, I have pretty much lost my interest in watches like Omega and other high dollar watches. Why wouldn't I when I can get the same aesthetics (and as far as I'm concerned same quality and accuracy) from a $750 NTH&#8230;and buy 6-7-8-10 for the same price! Some will always think a watch must have a crown or Omega, etc., on the dial to be quality. Pffft&#8230;I have other toys to buy with my money.

I am already trying to convince myself what NTH I want next. A couple new Tropics for different archipelago would be awesome&#8230;especially one in orange! Anyway, I can easily see myself with a large watch box full of NTH. I like to think I know quality and value when I see it&#8230;and I gladly tell anyone who will listen that NTH watches have both of those in spades.

Disclaimer&#8230;if AAFES ever has a Planet Ocean at 30% off, it's going to be hard to pass up ?.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Thanks Doc, I’ve been investing in dumbbells. I should pay more attention to my financy guy. And my anglish thatcher.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> You might be surprised how many people have multiple versions of the same NTH model. There's a guy who posts in our FB group who appears to have every version of the DevilRay, or damned close. I just grabbed this pic of his...
> 
> View attachment 16000917
> 
> ...


He had 2 black nackens and 2 white Santa Cruz's. The same exact ones. The different colors of same model makes perfect sense to me. Dude with the Devil rays looks awesome.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> It's really not hard to see (for me). When I decided to check out automatics, went with Seiko because it's a brand I knew (and had owned several throughout my life). Once I got it, I wanted to learn more about automatics and found this WUS forum. Over a few days of constant reading I learned a LOT. I also became enamored with Omega, thinking I'd want a Planet Ocean sometime soon. Shortly after that I was perusing the Shopmyexchange site (for veterans), and came across an Oris Caliber 400 at 30% off (20 + 10 for using star no interest credit promotion). I had read a lot about the Caliber 400 so thought I'd try it, plus if I didn't like it, could return locally. Received it, wore about a week straight, and was forever enamored with automatics&#8230;the +2 SPD didn't hurt, along with 120 hour reserve.
> 
> Fast forward about a month and I saw a post on WUS with an NTH picture, first I'd ever seen. Found the NTH site and saw the Tropics models, specifically the Azores. As I'd been stationed there in 95-96, obviously I was intrigued. Reviewed the specs and they seemed to be a very reasonable cost to value ratio. I wasn't familiar with Miyota movements (or really any except the Seiko 35R and Oris 400 that I owned, both very accurate. Anyway, with the 6-6 warranty, figured "why not?" Went with Absinthe as my Oris and Seiko are blue.
> 
> ...


I cant seem to find the photo.... but after my first full day wearing my Absinthe, I noticed it had only gained 1s(ish). So I slapped it on my timegrapher.

I can't remember the exact readings in all 6 positions(damned amazing) But I do remember dial up was 0spd.

It, no sh*t, runs better than my one and only chronometer.


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## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Even though this strap was meant for my Hamilton Khaki Field it looks just as great on my Scorpéne!


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Doc I know you said you will need to charge more for the next batch of DR v2. But can you remind us what the price will be? And are you thinking release in the next month or so?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Ike2 said:


> Doc I know you said you will need to charge more for the next batch of DR v2. But can you remind us what the price will be? And are you thinking release in the next month or so?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


WatchGauge has them listed at $550.


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

I had to convince myself to not be a smart ass and say something about being upset that "nearly new" wasn't actually new, but I figure that Doc has enough stress in his life at the moment. So here is my NOT NEW polar Barracuda. It's very nice! This is NTH number 4 for me. I might swap the bezel for a black Scorpene version in the future, if only for the added lume.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Lab4Us said:


> WatchGauge has them listed at $550.


Thanks. I got on the waitlist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pichi826 (Jul 13, 2021)

docvail said:


> That is a nice, very respectable collection, if a bit "barbell" in its approach, by which I mean - you've got 3 heavy-hitters, and 4 entry-level pieces, with nothing in between.
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.


I got something "in between" on the way. And, it adds a little bit of color to the collection as well. I'll be posting it once I get it. Should be in this week or beginning of next week.


----------



## pichi826 (Jul 13, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> Nice collection! It could use an NTH Devil Ray or Tropics model!! A nice colorful dial!


Got something with a bit of color on the way.


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

its really cool he does the nearly new, i was a little surprised when i saw it. A very good price on a good shape model thats been checked over again and under warranty. Awesome deal


----------



## pichi826 (Jul 13, 2021)

PowerChucker said:


> Awesome collection! I love it! that Citizen looks awesome, what dont you like about it? I have an SMPc, and owned 3 Turtles, and about 8-9 SKX's, Id love a real BB (i have a homage), and id love a Sub at some point (will never happen). the Solar, Multi band G's are the way to go as well for a great tough watch! You really need an NTH Sub or 2 in there, and possibly a Devil Ray as well... just sayin..


The citizen is a big son of a gun at 48mm. That's the only draw back. And the dial is too busy. My taste has simplified over the years.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> He had 2 black nackens and 2 white Santa Cruz's. The same exact ones. The different colors of same model makes perfect sense to me. Dude with the Devil rays looks awesome.


Pretty sure the Näckens were different colors.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Doc I know you said you will need to charge more for the next batch of DR v2. But can you remind us what the price will be? And are you thinking release in the next month or so?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$550.

About a month from now.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Pretty sure the Näckens were different colors.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Bottom left, top right? The bezel insert is a little different but they look pretty identical to me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> Bottom left, top right? The bezel insert is a little different but they look pretty identical to me.


Top right, modern black.

Bottom.right, modern blue.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Top right, modern black.
> 
> Bottom.right, modern blue.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Bottom left???


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

HammyMan37 said:


> Bottom left???


Renegade.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> Renegade.


I guess I'm not as much of a fanboy as I thought.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> I guess I'm not as much of a fanboy as I thought.


Yet.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cowboytime said:


> I'm an extremely rare poster here but a regular constant reader of this thread.....and oh, by the way, I really dig NTH watches. My NTH collection:
> View attachment 16000783


We actually have pretty similar tastes. I have both those Scorpenes, and 2 of those 3 Nackens. Used to have all three, but sold my modern black.

I have the Azores, too, but in blue.

I don't have a Santa Cruz, but my wife does.

I don't have a Barracuda Polar White, but I was sorely tempted to add one to my collection. With very few exceptions, white dials just don't seem to last in my collection. My two Barracudas are the brown, and the vintage black.

I also have all no-dates, except for my 2 Seikos, and my Cerberus (white, one of those very few exceptions).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mostly out of curiosity, and I am definitely not inviting anyone to name names or throw other brands under the bus, but I have to ask, because I haven't been paying much attention to what other brands are doing lately...

Does it seem like brands are having a harder time than usual delivering new models on their expected timelines lately?

This year's been amazingly frustrating so far. I can't remember the January release well enough, but the three releases since January have all been behind schedule, and we've gotten partial shipments, rather than getting all the watches at once.

It's not just the watches. Our boxes took 3 weeks to get here, instead of 3 days.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

As for the new watches I have bought this year, yes they seem to still be a bit delayed for some reason. Nothing specific but it's always something. But once QC has been done, it's pretty quick shipping. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Mostly out of curiosity, and I am definitely not inviting anyone to name names or throw other brands under the bus, but I have to ask, because I haven't been paying much attention to what other brands are doing lately...
> 
> Does it seem like brands are having a harder time than usual delivering new models on their expected timelines lately?
> 
> ...


Not "throwing them under the bus" cos there's a pretty heated thread that can be easily found, but Synchron delayed shipping by 3-4 months for 30 some odd paid customers, and baited and switched the movements on a few of them (product page originally had ETA, after everyone paid they quietly changed their page to say Sellita without actually notifying customers until they were called out) - delays due to not able to source the advertised ETAs.

Edit: Full refunds were offered though for those who didn't want to wait or didn't want the Sellita substitute. But still left a sour taste for many.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Thanks Doc, I've been investing in dumbbells. I should pay more attention to my financy guy. And my anglish thatcher.
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


It's funny what stands out in our memories, and why.

I worked in finance from 2000 to 2007. Had an alphabet of designations after my name, including CFP. Learned a lot of financial stuff.

Never invested in bonds, nor did I advise anyone who was a major bond investor, and never advised anyone to adopt a barbell bond investing strategy. But for some reason, perhaps because the name conjures up a strong mental image, that's one of the few concepts that's stuck with me from those days.

Of the top of my head, the only other thing I remember well is the "core and satellite" strategy. Invest the majority of your portfolio according to an asset allocation based on your long-term goals (the "core"), but use a small portion to invest in high-risk / high-reward stuff, on an opportunistic basis (the "satellite").


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Mostly out of curiosity, and I am definitely not inviting anyone to name names or throw other brands under the bus, but I have to ask, because I haven't been paying much attention to what other brands are doing lately...
> 
> Does it seem like brands are having a harder time than usual delivering new models on their expected timelines lately?
> 
> ...


18 months later and I'm still waiting on a bronze release. At least they have all been made, waiting for assembly and shipping.... patience grasshopper...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> As for the new watches I have bought this year, yes they seem to still be a bit delayed for some reason. Nothing specific but it's always something. But once QC has been done, it's pretty quick shipping.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Shipping soon after QC is done isn't unusual. I'd expect that, typically. It's more the production delays that are getting my shorts in a twist.

That said - it seems like the shipping itself has also been taking longer. Rhory's one-off , DLC Amphion has been in USPS limbo since we shipped it on the 7th, with no updates to the tracking since the 12th, when it was last seen in the Northern half of the state where Rhory lives (in the Southern half).

That's not the only one recently, either. It seems like at least once a month, we'll get someone reporting their shipment seems to be taking longer than expected.



Slant said:


> Not "throwing them under the bus" cos there's a pretty heated thread that can be easily found, but Synchron delayed shipping by 3-4 months for 30 some odd paid customers, and baited and switched the movements on a few of them (product page originally had ETA, after everyone paid they quietly changed their page to say Sellita without actually notifying customers until they were called out) - delays due to not able to source the advertised ETAs.


I haven't paid much attention to that thread in 2-3 months, though I do recall one of those customers starting a thread to complain about it.

It's a shame, because my read on it is that the Synchron is a better Doxa, for less than what a Doxa costs.

(Almost like a DevilRay.)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> 18 months later and I'm still waiting on a bronze release. At least they have all been made, waiting for assembly and shipping.... patience grasshopper...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Is that a Kickstarter or pre-order, the first model from a newly launched brand, or something from a brand that's been around long enough to not make the mistake of under-estimating their production time?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Is that a Kickstarter or pre-order, the first model from a newly launched brand, or something from a brand that's been around long enough to not make the mistake of under-estimating their production time?


It's Russian...a couple of Zlatoust's coming my way... both bronze but engraved cases and one with a Damascus dial and the other a Mokume dial. There is a meteorite dial also available.

It's taken ages for the factory to get their act together.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Yet.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


make a string of ugly watches please.

i still dont know which one i truely want between swift and cuda though i think logically cause i missed the last cuda im going for that first.

then im ignoring that other model, i dont know the name and i dont really wanna right now. Just make worse watches for a little while.

Actually thanks for the plethora of options.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> make a string of ugly watches please.
> 
> i still dont know which one i truely want between swift and cuda though i think logically cause i missed the last cuda im going for that first.
> 
> ...


I'll get right on that making ugly watches thing.

But first...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16001490


thanks for awesome pics! Been watching the serious watches videos and god i like both of them so much.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16001499


i cant say enough how much i like how you do the bezels, thats pretty and easy to read, love the brushing, love what it does to the color.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16001507


hopefully that will be the one i get


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Oh my. . . .


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

I like the changes. I actually like the crown guards. However I much prefer the v1 bezel. But I'm probably in the minority on that one. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> I like the changes. I actually like the crown guards. However I much prefer the v1 bezel. But I'm probably in the minority on that one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I think I prefer the v.1 bezel, too. For all the flack NTH has gotten for making Sub homages, the lack of crown guards and the gear-tooth bezel at least kept the Subs from being too close to the original source material.

I think I like the crown guards better than no crown guards, but we'll see what the market thinks of the new case, and all its features.

I'm very happy with the finishing, especially on the crown guards. It should help silence the "no better than a San Martin" naysayers.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Doc's famous WOT replaced by *** (WallOfPics). 

Look at you! Beautiful pics!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Looking at these pics reminds me of something Rusty and I discussed in depth while working on the case.

No doubt you all have owned watches which were okay, maybe even nice enough, but there's one little thing that doesn't seem quite right. Especially with homages. As close as any homage might be, there's often some little detail that isn't quite close enough.

With the v.1's bezel, we didn't spend a lot of time figuring out the width or depth of the gap between the teeth on the bezel's edge, or the width of the teeth themselves. We didn't really have to, since they're just rectangular forms.

For the v.1 case, Aaron drew those teeth from the front, giving us their width and depth. All we had to do to know their third dimension was figure out the height of the bezel (thickness of the edge).

But with the 2K1's, and then the v.2 Subs, we didn't start with a 2D drawing from Aaron, we started in 3D. Rusty had to create all those little scallops in his design program.










I remember looking at them with him, and him explaining that we didn't just need to specify their width and depth, we'd also need to figure out what we wanted the angle of the cut needed to make them to be. Unlike the v.1's bezel teeth, which were straight up and down, those scallops have their own axis.

I'm not saying we got it "right", or "accurate" (compared to the source of inspiration). I'm just saying, it's one of those little design details most people probably take for granted. I know I did.

If Rusty and I weren't doing the case designs in 3D before sending them to our vendor, we'd get whatever their designers guessed we wanted.

We also went through 4 different drafts trying to figure out how wide the tips of the lugs should be.

Again, its all guesswork for us, when we look at these little aspects of a new design, but It's why so many watches don't seem quite right in their little details, I think - no one paid close enough attention to them, or tried to figure out how they should be executed, so the vendors figure it out for them, usually the most expedient way possible.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16001514


Nice rope!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I think I prefer the v.1 bezel, too. For all the flack NTH has gotten for making Sub homages, the lack of crown guards and the gear-tooth bezel at least kept the Subs from being too close to the original source material.
> 
> I think I like the crown guards better than no crown guards, but we'll see what the market thinks of the new case, and all its features.
> 
> I'm very happy with the finishing, especially on the crown guards. It should help silence the "no better than a San Martin" naysayers.


**** those people

Damn, the San Martin looks real good for the money but this looks way better

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I think there is enough orange on my DevilRay to make it required emergency equipment.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I am currently storing my watches in a pile on a shelf inside my wardrobe and I am getting increasingly jealous of pictures of collections neatly displayed in watch boxes. I have been looking for one for a while now and am swithering between getting a cheap and cheerful box from amazon (£20) or a more premium expensive option.(£100 - 250 VALR, WOLF or the like). both options with 10 or 12 slots.

Part of me thinks that a basic box is all I need as it will stay in the cupboard and only be seen when I am choosing the next watch to wear, but the other part of me thinks "if you buy cheap you buy twice" and I will regret it.

I have gone through the many threads regarding boxes in the various forums, but after spending so much time on this thread I have come to value the opinions of the regulars here. So should my watches have 5 star accommodation or stay in a backpackers hostel?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

gavindavie said:


> I am currently storing my watches in a pile on a shelf inside my wardrobe and I am getting increasingly jealous of pictures of collections neatly displayed in watch boxes. I have been looking for one for a while now and am swithering between getting a cheap and cheerful box from amazon (£20) or a more premium expensive option.(£100 - 250 VALR, WOLF or the like). both options with 10 or 12 slots.
> 
> Part of me thinks that a basic box is all I need as it will stay in the cupboard and only be seen when I am choosing the next watch to wear, but the other part of me thinks "if you buy cheap you buy twice" and I will regret it.
> 
> I have gone through the many threads regarding boxes in the various forums, but after spending so much time on this thread I have come to value the opinions of the regulars here. So should my watches have 5 star accommodation or stay in a backpackers hostel?


I started cheap. Regretted it. Didnt wanna go fully upscale with something like a Wolf. So I went mid-range cost wise. I'm quite happy with it! Well, them, I've got two.

$124 on Amazon in brown or black. Fits even the largest of watches.









Edit: forgot to mention the maker! It's made by Houndsbay, believe the model is the Mariner.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> I am currently storing my watches in a pile on a shelf inside my wardrobe and I am getting increasingly jealous of pictures of collections neatly displayed in watch boxes. I have been looking for one for a while now and am swithering between getting a cheap and cheerful box from amazon (£20) or a more premium expensive option.(£100 - 250 VALR, WOLF or the like). both options with 10 or 12 slots.
> 
> Part of me thinks that a basic box is all I need as it will stay in the cupboard and only be seen when I am choosing the next watch to wear, but the other part of me thinks "if you buy cheap you buy twice" and I will regret it.
> 
> I have gone through the many threads regarding boxes in the various forums, but after spending so much time on this thread I have come to value the opinions of the regulars here. So should my watches have 5 star accommodation or stay in a backpackers hostel?


I started out making my own boxes out of old cigar boxes and little pillows bought on ebay, which is laughable, considering how pitiful my wood-working skills are. I think my first store-bought case was a 12 or 18 slot aluminum travel case from Amazon.

My current solution is a 24-slot travel case, stored lid open, seated on a middle-height shelf in my office. More often than I'd think others would need to, I'll need to bring my whole collection with me somewhere, so having it all in a travel case, ready to go, makes sense.

One of the downsides of many cases, travel or not, is how easy they make it for burglars to take your whole collection. When we go away for more than a day, I'll snap it shut, and slide it under a couch, back against the wall.

This is the one I have, but I swear it must have gone up in price 50% since I got mine about 4-5 years ago.



Amazon.com



This 18 slot case is cheaper, and water-proof. In case you fall off a boat and drown, you'll die happy knowing your collection is safe.



Amazon.com


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Definitely like the updated design, particularly the bezel. 

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I started out making my own boxes out of old cigar boxes and *little pillows bought on ebay*,...


How extravagant...










That's pipe insulation, and a cigar box. Lid got torn off before I repurposed it. No dividers (more extravagance), so I just make sure there's no bracelet to bracelet contact.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Multiples: At some point, a long time ago, I thought it would be good not to have any more than one of any brand. But Seiko makes such a wide range of decent watches, especially if you get into vintage and discontinued catalogs. Then, surely not watches with the same basic case, only different details. Which is why my collection only ever had one NTH sub at a time. And then... dangit, Doc posts about DLC cases and oh, BTW, there will be two Scorpenes, also the Catalina bezel insert will be back in stock. Perfect storm there. Meanwhile, over on BSH SeikoSamurai posted a modded Nazario Ghost with BSH dial and milsub hands. I was already this >< close to looking for a used Amphion, so yeah. Suddenly there are three NTH subs in my collection, none of them stock models.

I certainly don't need anymore, right? Except the v2 intrigues, and I have considered a Nacken, in the past. Also, someday a Scorpene White or Nacken Vintage White will come up at a price I can't possibly not consider buying...

Stupid watch obsession [grumble, mutter]...


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## Wolfsatz (Jun 27, 2016)

gavindavie said:


> I think there is enough orange on my DevilRay to make it required emergency equipment.
> View attachment 16001734


Specially with that strap!!! Great watch.... this has a monsterish feel to it. I like the no date version.

I think I am getting an itch to sell some of my super affordables to make a bank and go for this.

@docvail 
Great Pictures.. are you the photographer?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> Multiples: At some point, a long time ago, I thought it would be good not to have any more than one of any brand. But Seiko makes such a wide range of decent watches, especially if you get into vintage and discontinued catalogs. Then, surely not watches with the same basic case, only different details. Which is why my collection only ever had one NTH sub at a time. And then... dangit, Doc posts about DLC cases and oh, BTW, there will be two Scorpenes, also the Catalina bezel insert will be back in stock. Perfect storm there. Meanwhile, over on BSH SeikoSamurai posted a modded Nazario Ghost with BSH dial and milsub hands. I was already this >< close to looking for a used Amphion, so yeah. Suddenly there are three NTH subs in my collection, none of them stock models.
> 
> I certainly don't need anymore, right? Except the v2 intrigues, and I have considered a Nacken, in the past. Also, someday a Scorpene White or Nacken Vintage White will come up at a price I can't possibly not consider buying...
> 
> Stupid watch obsession [grumble, mutter]...


Right there with you!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

So, as I was up most the night battling a kidney stone, what else is there to do but peruse lots and lot of watches...well, and drink lots of water to try and flush the stone.

As most would imagine this story ends, I now have a black no date Thresher inbound, along with a Viton black rubber strap. This will be both my first no date watch as well as first black dial watch.

Most importantly though, the Thresher on black strap will be the Yang to the Yin below.

In Ancient Chinese philosophy, *yin and yang* (/jɪn/ and /jɑːŋ, jæŋ/; Chinese: 陰陽 _yīnyáng_ pronounced [ín jǎŋ], lit. "bright-black", "positive-negative") is a concept of dualism, describing how obviously opposite or contrary forces may actually be complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they may give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another.

I just love the way the 2k1 and Tropic models fit my wrist.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wolfsatz said:


> @docvail
> Great Pictures.. are you the photographer?


Bwahahahahahaah!!!

No.

No I am not.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16001507


I ordered one of these on a whim. I'm not a crown guard fan, but the new bezel intrigues me. But after seeing this pic I'm anxious to get it... next week I hope. Looks great, even the crown guard.


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## Wolfsatz (Jun 27, 2016)

docvail said:


> Bwahahahahahaah!!!
> 
> No.
> 
> No I am not.


Well... whoever is doing your Marketing pictorials knows what he is doing. Great Shots!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Wolfsatz said:


> Well... whoever is doing your Marketing pictorials knows what he is doing. Great Shots!


It may not be a man could be he or she.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Wolfsatz (Jun 27, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> It may not be a man could be he or she.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


or it may be s/he... or an it... or undefined.... do we need to get politically correct even on a compliment.

'Great Freaking Pictures" that's the point!


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I started cheap. Regretted it. Didnt wanna go fully upscale with something like a Wolf. So I went mid-range cost wise. I'm quite happy with it! Well, them, I've got two.
> 
> $124 on Amazon in brown or black. Fits even the largest of watches.
> View attachment 16002021
> ...


Thanks Bearded, I think you are right that I would regret going for the cheaper option, the Houndsbay boxes look great but I have to pay double to get them in the UK, but I see some alternatives here that look as good.



docvail said:


> I started out making my own boxes out of old cigar boxes and little pillows bought on ebay, which is laughable, considering how pitiful my wood-working skills are. I think my first store-bought case was a 12 or 18 slot aluminum travel case from Amazon.
> 
> My current solution is a 24-slot travel case, stored lid open, seated on a middle-height shelf in my office. More often than I'd think others would need to, I'll need to bring my whole collection with me somewhere, so having it all in a travel case, ready to go, makes sense.
> 
> ...


Doc as soon as I saw the waterproof one I thought "I could make that myself", we have literally hundreds of these waterproof Pelican Cases onboard to transfer our data to shore, all in a tasteful orange to go with the DevilRay... any excuse for another photo.









But as you can see the cases are huge, I think I could fit 50 watches in a single layer, and get at least 2 layers if not 3..... now that is a LOT of slots to fill. Oh and my crafting skills are way worse than pitiful.

Your point about boxes being handy for burglars has also been playing on my mind.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

As for burglars....
I'm contemplating dropping the dime for a couple of shelves from "Tactical Trap". Its a floating shelf with a hidden and RFID lockable drop down compartment, originally designed to hold a pistol and mags.

Seeing as I've got around $25k scattered into 19 or so watches. It seems like a wise investment. Hide and lock up the "A-Team".

That said, I live in Texas, we have the "Castle" law/doctrine. So I pity the fool(hehehe) who breaks into my house if I'm home.

Edit: I'd post a pic for those interested in seeing. But alas, they all have guns in them. So heres a link for anyone interested. 





Tactical Traps


Concealed gun shelf lets you hide your weapons securely in plain sight! Made in USA by skilled tradesman, built to last. Shop our line or get one custom made exactly how you want it.




www3.tacticaltraps.com


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> As for burglars....
> I'm contemplating dropping the dime for a couple of shelves from "Tactical Trap". Its a floating shelf with a hidden and RFID lockable drop down compartment, originally designed to hold a pistol and mags.
> 
> Seeing as I've got around $25k scattered into 19 or so watches. It seems like a wise investment. Hide and lock up the "A-Team".
> ...


Being in Texas as well, I believe in the castle doctrine as well. These work too&#8230;my last effort not to have to try out the castle doctrine. All house dwellers, except when we're out playing.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Mostly out of curiosity, and I am definitely not inviting anyone to name names or throw other brands under the bus, but I have to ask, because I haven't been paying much attention to what other brands are doing lately...
> 
> Does it seem like brands are having a harder time than usual delivering new models on their expected timelines lately?
> 
> ...


My Gruppo Gamma PG01 pre-order was supposed to be July/early August. It's now late August/September.

It's nothing to be worried or even ashamed about. There are mitigating circumstances - a global pandemic. It's made everything difficult.... Obviously


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pretty sure I've said this before, but in case you missed it...

NTH Subs replacement parts - bracelet end-links, bezel inserts, crystals, dials, hands, crowns, casebacks - for the v.1 Subs are all compatible (interchangeable) with the v.2 Subs. We did this intentionally, so that we wouldn't have to stock 2 different sets of replacement parts for the v.1's vs. v.2's.

We don't do insert swaps here. The process is a simple five-minute job, even for the most ham-fisted among us. Instructions for doing the bezel swap are on the product page of the website, right where you buy the insert. To illustrate how easy it is, here are those instructions again:

_*These bezel inserts will fit either the v.1 NTH Subs case, or the v.2 case.*_

*Bezel inserts are not returnable. All sales final. Please choose carefully. Use our website contact form for any questions.*

Insert dimensions: Inner diameter, 30mm. Outer diameter, 38mm.

*Inserts include pre-installed adhesive backing. We do not sell or supply additional adhesive for the re-use of removed inserts. Additional adhesive backing can be purchased online, by searching for 38mm Dexerials or 3M adhesive disks.

Be sure to carefully read and follow the bezel insert replacement instructions to avoid damage!*

1. Prior to removing the original bezel insert, align the edge of the bezel so that the new insert will be correctly aligned once installed.

2. In order to remove the insert without risking any damage to the case or underlying bezel assembly, do *NOT* pry the bezel assembly off the mid-case.

3. Unscrew the crown (to let heat out of the case).

4. Heat the insert with a heat gun, for 10-15 seconds, to loosen the underlying adhesive. If you don't have a heat gun, a hair-dryer set to high heat should work, but may take a few seconds longer. Use care to avoid burning your fingers on the next step. Maybe use gloves. We don't recommend an oven mitt.

5._ Carefully_ pry the insert out using a sharp tool, like an X-acto knife, by working the tool under and around the edge of the insert. If the insert is difficult to remove, you may need to heat it some more.

6. Once the insert is removed, clean the surface of the underlying assembly using a cotton swab soaked with soap and water, or any mild solvent used to remove tape residue, to ensure there is no debris which will prevent the new insert from being properly seated.

7. When the underlying surface is clean and dry, peel the adhesive backing off the replacement insert, align the insert with the dial and edge of the bezel, and press firmly into place.

8. Let the adhesive cure overnight before getting the watch wet.

...

"Heat gun? I have to buy a heat gun? WTF?"

I bought a heat gun online for $10-$12. If you don't want to buy a heat gun, use a hair dryer. If you don't have a hair dryer, wait for a sunny day, and heat it with a magnifying glass. Don't be the guy who emails me with a ludicrous question, making me add anything more inane to those instructions above.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> I like the changes. I actually like the crown guards. However I much prefer the v1 bezel. But I'm probably in the minority on that one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk





docvail said:


> I think I prefer the v.1 bezel, too. For all the flack NTH has gotten for making Sub homages, the lack of crown guards and the gear-tooth bezel at least kept the Subs from being too close to the original source material.
> 
> I think I like the crown guards better than no crown guards, but we'll see what the market thinks of the new case, and all its features.
> 
> I'm very happy with the finishing, especially on the crown guards. It should help silence the "no better than a San Martin" naysayers.


Since someone else has said it. I liked the old bezel, but I like the new one too. Looks very cool and practical.
But I _loved_ the crown guardless look. It was super distinctive and slightly retro. Combined with that very vintage crown style it was pure win.

But you should be glad I think this. I generally have a weird take on everything. If I like it, it's generally not going to be popular. So the fact I think this should give you confidence that everyone else is going to love the new crown guards.

As for SM. No comparison. I've looked closely at a lot of pictures of them and handled several at GTG's. They're fine but there's always something. Gaps, iffy finish, sharp bits, cheap parts, wobbly indices.
NTH is a different league.
This is NOT a SM knock, they're good for their amazing price.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> As for burglars....
> I'm contemplating dropping the dime for a couple of shelves from "Tactical Trap". Its a floating shelf with a hidden and RFID lockable drop down compartment, originally designed to hold a pistol and mags.
> 
> Seeing as I've got around $25k scattered into 19 or so watches. It seems like a wise investment. Hide and lock up the "A-Team".
> ...


Talking about burglary..
Not as much as that in watches, but enough. Which is why in invested in one of these..








Concrete bolted to the concrete floor. Then trapped all around by brackets screwed into floor and wall.
Okay 10 mins a crow bar and welding tools would do it. But it's enough for all but the seriously tooled up. Plus there's insurance.

Don't buy a watch unless you can afford to lose it. Yes certainly, but I'd pretty much cry like a baby if I came home and found all my watches the property of someone else.
So it's a watch roll in the safe for me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> My Gruppo Gamma PG01 pre-order was supposed to be July/early August. It's now late August/September.
> 
> It's nothing to be worried or even ashamed about. There are mitigating circumstances - a global pandemic. It's made everything difficult.... Obviously


I'm not worried or ashamed. Just very frustrated. It creates a lot more work, a lot more expense, is a drag on cash flow, and sucks up a lot more of my resources, particularly my time, the most valuable resource I have...

It's not simply the delays, or the partial shipments. It's also all the added work and communication this creates.

Instead of telling everyone we'll have the v.2 Subs in late June, and getting them all in time to ship in late June, we have to update all the product pages (which now have the estimated availability date on them), and explain the updated timelines to our retailers and everyone else, repeatedly, as the timelines constantly shift.

I have to deal with all the random requests from guys asking where the June release is, because they're not getting the email newsletter, looking at our website, or following us on social media.

It's made it hard for me and my team to plan production and promotion. In recent years past, we'd have 4-5 releases per year, 2-3 months apart. This year, we were planning for 8 releases, possibly 9. The first was in January. The other 7 were set to commence in March, and end sometime between October and December.

I'd built some flexibility into the plan, to allow for altering the release dates in Q4, pushing the October date to November or December, or, if things went well, holding it in October, and squeezing one more release in before year-end. I had 10 months (March to December) to do 7, maybe 8 releases. That plan is now shot to hell.

March became April. The April release became May. The May release became June. The v.2's were supposed to be late June, but here we are, in mid-July, and we've only shipped half of them. I'm not expecting the Nacken Modern Blue until late July, a month later than planned. The DevilRays were supposed to be here the second half of July, now I'm just guessing it'll be the second half of August.

We have a marketing calendar we developed to coincide with the production plan, so that we could plan and see in advance when we'd be talking about an upcoming release in email blasts and on social media, then back-fill the rest of the calendar with plans for other messaging, like talking about the Nearly New watches, or "Last piece left", stuff like that.

When a release is not only delayed, but gets spread out over multiple delivery dates, it throws a spanner into the works. Instead of one email blast, it needs two, or maybe three.

It dramatically increases my shipping costs. The more that gets shipped to us in a single shipment, the lower those costs are, on a per-unit basis.

Actual numbers - my per-strap shipping costs for 300 straps was 23% higher than what I paid for shipping on 600 straps. For 160 straps, it was 45% higher. For 40 straps, it was almost 160% higher than what it cost me to get 600 straps shipped.

With the watches, I'm expecting the same sort of pattern, and for that pattern to also repeat with the shipping costs my retailers incur. It hurts everyone's margins, because the retail prices are already set. It's not a cost we can just pass along to the customer. A 20%-40% increase in projected per-unit shipping costs is a bitter pill to swallow, considering how much shipping costs have already gone up in the last 18 months.

If we have to sort out a lot of stuff after we've received it, that just complicates things further. With the last 40 v.1 Subs, we had to swap parts out on 20 of them (wrong insert lume on the Barracuda Polar White, and ghost-date crowns on 10 of the no-dates). With the 175 Tropics, we got them in three shipments, and we still sent 20 back to be re-done, plus we had 1 piece come back from a customer with something we missed in QC, that still needs to be sorted.

Even though we have all the parts for all the planned releases this year already ordered, and most have already been produced, even when we have the major parts made and ready for assembly, it's always taken at least 2 months to get from ordering watches assembled using those parts, to actually getting them shipped to us.

It's hard enough for me to know when to order watches with a 60 day lead time, as I'm trying to avoid over-production.

The pattern I set up is Tropics > v.2 Subs > DevilRays, wash, rinse, repeat, with each release following 30 days after the previous release. That puts 90 days between the first and second release of each of those models, which is what we want - to give our retailers and the market the time needed to absorb what we're producing.

But even if each release was delivered to me on time, when expected, I'd still only have 30 days to measure sales, which isn't very long, before I have to re-order that same model, for delivery 60 days later.

When a release is delayed, and sent to us in partial shipments, spread out over multiple weeks, if not a month, it forces me to fly by the seat of my pants. I don't have 30 days of sales to look at before I have to decide whether or not to order more. I might have a week, maybe two, if I want to stay on schedule.

More likely, I'll wait, and adjust the target delivery date for that release, pushing it back 2-4 weeks, which re-starts the cycle of me needing to update my retailers and customers on the revised production and release plan, and us needing to re-do the marketing calendar, etc. I've lost all the late-year flexibility I built into the production plan when the year started.

After telling folks here and everywhere else we'll have more of this or that model in 60-90 days, now I have to deal with the guys who pop up to ask about those models when they're not on sale in 2-3 months, because they're not getting the email newsletter, or following us on social media, or looking at our website.

This cycle just repeats, over and over again, making me want to chuck my laptop across my office, and start day-drinking.

I've got a good enough relationship with my vendor that they've given me some flexibility when it comes to the how and when of paying for production. With so many parts being produced for multiple releases, the numbers get pretty big, pretty quickly.

Rather than trying to manage my business with huge up-and-down fluctuations with the cash we have on hand, I like to make periodic installment payments, to keep me and them from getting nervous. That's hard to do when I can't invoice my retailers, because we're not yet ready to ship inventory to them. As it is, I don't love asking my retailers to pay me now, in full, for the watches they ordered, while telling them, "okay, I'll be able to ship 40%-60% of your order now, and hopefully send you the rest next week, but maybe not until the week after..."

Add into this mix the uncertainty about what Dan would be able to do, and when, leading up to his back surgery, and one might expect me to be a bit on edge, when responding to my retailers and other people asking when this or that model will be released.

Because, right now, I don't know, at least not for certain, and I don't like it, not one bit.

I might get drunk tonight.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't know if "it's just the pandemic, stupid" at the root of all this. I suppose it doesn't matter. All I know is it's been a very frustrating year so far.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm not worried or ashamed. Just very frustrated. It creates a lot more work, a lot more expense, is a drag on cash flow, and sucks up a lot more of my resources, particularly my time, the most valuable resource I have...
> 
> It's not simply the delays, or the partial shipments. It's also all the added work and communication this creates.
> 
> ...


Not a great year to choose upping the number of releases 🤦‍♂️ isn't hindsight wonderful...

I can see how not having the time to measure sales before ordering again could be extremely stressful. Along with a the extra work and confused customers.

Alcohol, it's like an old friend ...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Talking about burglary..
> Not as much as that in watches, but enough. Which is why in invested in one of these..
> View attachment 16002896
> 
> ...


See that's my thing. I am tooled up. So I think like someone who is. Robbers see safe, think valuables, take safe even if complicated.

Robbers see a floating shelf with pictures and candles and bullsh*t on it and dont give it a second glance and look for the valuables.

Only my outlook on it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Mostly out of curiosity, and I am definitely not inviting anyone to name names or throw other brands under the bus, but I have to ask, because I haven't been paying much attention to what other brands are doing lately...
> 
> Does it seem like brands are having a harder time than usual delivering new models on their expected timelines lately?
> 
> ...


Not surprising. I am seeing some lead times, delays, and orders (because of the volatility) beyond anything I would have even considered possible a few years ago.

I really think many (most?) companies use ERP systems and tools that are fantastic at planning when business is consistent or blips are minor (10-20% margin of error max).....but they do not know how to work in the current normal.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Not a great year to choose upping the number of releases 🤦‍♂️ isn't hindsight wonderful...
> 
> I can see how not having the time to measure sales before ordering again could be extremely stressful. Along with a the extra work and confused customers.
> 
> Alcohol, it's like an old friend ...


Perhaps ironically - the decision to increase the number and frequency of releases, while shrinking the size of the releases, was a strategic one, in light of all that's happened in the last 2-3 years.

If we were getting the releases when expected, and in one shipment, it would be easier for our retailers and the market to absorb them. 2-3 years ago, it wasn't all that unusual for us to drop 600 or more watches on the market, all at once, with a mix of 20-30 different SKUs.

Even if the market could theoretically absorb that many watches before the next release, 3-4 months later (and we proved it can), it's hard for our retailers to deal with us throwing that many SKUs at them, all at once. And it was very hard for us to react quickly enough to market swings. We alternated between running out of inventory too quickly, without being able to replace it soon enough, and taking too long to sell through it all, forcing us to produce many designs less frequently.

Let's say Watch Gauge here in the US would take 40% of 25 pieces per SKU - 10 pieces. Serious might take 6. The retailer with the next highest sales volume might take 3.

The lower those numbers get, per SKU, the more work it is for everyone. Retailers don't like having to create a product page for just a single piece of inventory. It's much easier for a retailer when they create just a few product listings on their website, and we ship them 4 to 6 pieces of each SKU, compared to doing the same amount of work, for each SKU, but there are more SKUs, and they can only take 1 piece of each, or worse, not even take 1 of every SKU, because we have so damned many, and they can't sell 1 of each SKU quickly enough.

When that happens, it upsets the apple cart. Let's say that out of 24 SKUs, a retailer only takes 1 piece, but of just 12 SKUs. Let's say they're all no-date. Now I'm going back to offer the unsold watches to the other retailers, but I'm asking them to take the with-dates, because I'm out of no-dates, or vice-versa. Anything they didn't take would go up on the NTH site for sale, but all I had was one version of a design, while the other version sat unsold in some faraway place, for six months.

With smaller releases, we decreased the number of SKUs, not just the total number of watches being produced. It makes it easier for our retailers to truly represent the NTH brand with a full selection of SKUs, and increases everyone's efficiency.

Instead of us promoting 8-12 different colorways, we're promoting 3. It's made it MUCH easier to offer models with a choice of bracelet, since that doubles the number of SKUs. It's still 3 colorways, date and no-date, now with a choice of bracelet, but the total there is just 12 SKUs. If we had started with 8-12 colorways, the SKU count would be 24-36, impossible for any of us to manage effectively.

Meanwhile, instead of asking Watch Gauge to buy 40% of a 600-unit release (240 pieces), I'm asking John to buy 50-80 pieces this month, then 50-80 next month, 50-80 the month after, etc, and on down the line with each retailer. It makes everyone's cash flow much more predictable, and gives me the ability to make incremental adjustments to our production plan when needed, rather than trying to react 3 months later, with a 3-4 month delay before any decision I might make works its way through production.

Three years ago, my vendors and I agreed we wouldn't assemble fewer than 300 pieces at a time. So, if I wanted to sell 1200 units this year, I'd have to plan for 4 releases, 3 months apart, and pray all my plans worked out as...erm...planned.

But what if I wanted to sell MORE? I could try to add another 300 piece release, but that would be a 25% increase to 1500 units, which might easily be more than we could sell quickly enough in that scenario. Alternatively, I could increase the size of a release, either by adding more SKUs, or assembling more of the SKUs we'd planned. Either of those can create challenges - too many SKUs is no bueno, but so is too many pieces per SKU.

Don't get me started on what would happen if I planned to produce 1200, when we would only be able to sell 900-1000. That's the stuff of nightmares past.

In light of covid, I've gotten them to agree to assemble as few as 150 pieces per release, as long as we still assemble 25 per dial variation, and they've grudgingly agreed to allow me to be a PITA by requesting a mix of bracelets, so we can do 20 on oyster and 5 on BOR, rather than 25 total of either. Now I can scale production up or down as needed, much more easily and quickly.

I just need everyone involved to do their f**king job, the right way, and deliver on time, when expected, without me having to constantly circle back to find out that the train has gone off the rails. I need to spend less time putting out fires, and more time doing what I should be doing - new model development, expanding into new markets, and engaging with customers.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> See that's my thing. I am tooled up. So I think like someone who is. Robbers see safe, think valuables, take safe even if complicated.
> 
> Robbers see a floating shelf with pictures and candles and bullsh*t on it and dont give it a second glance and look for the valuables.
> 
> Only my outlook on it.


Ahh that's probably the difference between UK and USA. I have an axe handle (big) under the bed. So if I'm in when Jo junkie invites himself in and I tap him on the head, I'm the one who is charged.

It doesn't in the least worry me, my loved ones and stuff is more important than a bit a police inconvenience and time. So I'll happily wave it about, regardless of what I accidentally break open.

But the important difference is we don't have guns here. Only farmers have shotguns, and gangsters doing heavy gangster stuff have guns. Not street bangers or local burglers.

I totally get the distraction technique. Hide it where they least expect it, rather than a big bullseye which a safe is. 
But I don't know about America but if you've been burgled here. They rip everything open and strew it across the floor. Super rapid way of trying to find stuff. It looks like a tornado has hit, and crucially nothing escapes attention.
Hence the safe, imperfect as it is. And the axe handle, illegal to use as it is.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

That v2 Sub case is begging for a Näcken vintage blue. Or is it the other way around?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> So if I'm in when Jo junkie invites himself in and I tap him on the head, I'm the one who is charged.


That's what I was referring to with the Castle doctrine. If you break into my home, I can legally shoot you dead if I fear for my life. IIRC, it also extends to my vehicle, as well as my porch/patio.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> That's what I was referring to with the Castle doctrine. If you break into my home, I can legally shoot you dead if I fear for my life. IIRC, it also extends to my vehicle, as well as my porch/patio.


That's were Americans have got it right. I'm perfectly happy with our low gun culture, but we aren't able to protect our selves or our property.
You're supposed to call the police and have them do it. Trouble is, that's just not realistic when it's happening immediately.

We had a guy here who kept having his fancy car broken into, like repeatedly by the same guy. This story was in all the papers and TV news a few years ago.
So he rigs up an electric current through the door handles. It nearly kills one of the robbers. But the police don't arrest the robber who he's neatly delivered to him. They arrest him for nearly killing the robber, and making a device dangerous for the public.
He's actually served prison time although I believe it was fairly nominal.


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## dragonemperor-92 (Jul 16, 2021)

Someone here has an NTH Azores blue curacao and absynthe in hand?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> That's were Americans have got it right. I'm perfectly happy with our low gun culture, but we aren't able to protect our selves or our property.
> You're supposed to call the police and have them do it. Trouble is, that's just not realistic when it's happening immediately.
> 
> We had a guy here who kept having his fancy car broken into, like repeatedly by the same guy. This story was in all the papers and TV news a few years ago.
> ...


It's not all states, by any means.



Lucio Ventrone said:


> Someone here has an NTH Azores blue curacao and absynthe in hand?


Both? Not I. But I do have an Absinthe.


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## dragonemperor-92 (Jul 16, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> It's not all states, by any means.
> 
> Both? Not I. But I do have an Absinthe.


Oh that's great, I'm looking for a video of the Absinthe outdoor under direct sunlight


TheBearded said:


> It's not all states, by any means.
> 
> Both? Not I. But I do have an Absinthe.


Oh perfect, please I'm looking for a video of the absinthe dial under direct sunlight outdoor, I really want to see the transition of the light games on the dial, I saw online only a photo on the dial full colored by the sunlight and I was like WOW, so I'd like to see the transition of the dial in motion. Please can you do this video for me?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lucio Ventrone said:


> Oh that's great, I'm looking for a video of the Absinthe outdoor under direct sunlight
> 
> Oh perfect, please I'm looking for a video of the absinthe dial under direct sunlight outdoor, I really want to see the transition of the light games on the dial, I saw online only a photo on the dial full colored by the sunlight and I was like WOW, so I'd like to see the transition of the dial in motion. Please can you do this video for me?


Afraid it'll have to wait, my man. Pretty overcast here right now.

Not to mention... I have no clue how to post a video that isn't a YouTube link. Apologies.

But I can assure you. It's pretty f*ckin stellar.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> It's not all states, by any means.


It certainly isn't. My state is neither castle nor stand your ground.

Gets tricky. Important to know your state laws.

If a bad guy/girl breaks in I can't shoot to kill if he/she/them isn't armed, even at 4 in the morning in pitch black dark. I have to determine they are unarmed or armed and decide from there.

I have a loophole method though that i think should work. I have my 12 gauge loaded as birdshot-buckshot-slugs. If ever I have to make this decision I can say well Judge I obviously wasn't trying to kill them with birdshot but they kept coming and when the buck didn't stop him I feared for our lives so I filled them with lead.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

HammyMan37 said:


> It certainly isn't. My state is neither castle nor stand your ground.
> 
> Gets tricky. Important to know your state laws.
> 
> ...


I see that as pretty defensible.

My 870 however is one, heavily modified, and two, loaded with Winchester PDX shells. A slug followed by three shots of 00 buck.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Perhaps ironically - the decision to increase the number and frequency of releases, while shrinking the size of the releases, was a strategic one, in light of all that's happened in the last 2-3 years.
> 
> If we were getting the releases when expected, and in one shipment, it would be easier for our retailers and the market to absorb them. 2-3 years ago, it wasn't all that unusual for us to drop 600 or more watches on the market, all at once, with a mix of 20-30 different SKUs.
> 
> ...


Do you have to very slightly under order what you think can sell?

I mean in the sense of, for example, you don't want to order 1200 and end up only selling a 1000. 
So what you do is only order 900 (the 3 X 300). So that you sell everything, even though you have many requests for more and reckon you could've done much more.
....Actually sounds like a highwire act.

So do you always err on the side of caution?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

gavindavie said:


> But as you can see the cases are huge, I think I could fit 50 watches in a single layer, and get at least 2 layers if not 3..... now that is a LOT of slots to fill. Oh and my crafting skills are way worse than pitiful.


And the problem is? 

Start ordering more watches.... you're clearly watch deficient

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> "Heat gun? I have to buy a heat gun? WTF?"
> 
> I bought a heat gun online for $10-$12. If you don't want to buy a heat gun, use a hair dryer. If you don't have a hair dryer, wait for a sunny day, and heat it with a magnifying glass. Don't be the guy who emails me with a ludicrous question, making me add anything more inane to those instructions above.


What about one of these Doc? Will this do the trick? Huh huh!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Do you have to very slightly under order what you think can sell?
> 
> I mean in the sense of, for example, you don't want to order 1200 and end up only selling a 1000.
> So what you do is only order 900 (the 3 X 300). So that you sell everything, even though you have many requests for more and reckon you could've done much more.
> ...


Sometimes I deliberately order less, sometimes I'll take a chance and order more.

Ordering less usually works out better.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I'm contemplating dropping the dime for a couple of shelves from "Tactical Trap". Its a floating shelf with a hidden and RFID lockable drop down compartment, originally designed to hold a pistol and mags.


arghhh, now I want a secret agent magic shelf instead of a watch box.... what have you done!


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## dragonemperor-92 (Jul 16, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> Afraid it'll have to wait, my man. Pretty overcast here right now.
> 
> Not to mention... I have no clue how to post a video that isn't a YouTube link. Apologies.
> 
> But I can assure you. It's pretty f*ckin stellar.


I can only imagine, as for the video, you can send it to my mail [email protected] when the weather will allow it  thank you for your time and patience, I really appreciate it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

gavindavie said:


> arghhh, now I want a secret agent magic shelf instead of a watch box.... what have you done!


Just doing my part man.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

The image of a NTH man.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Bezel insert replacement. Just did one recently. Applied Goof Off solvent sparingly around outside edge of bezel and a bit between insert and crystal. Didn't want to flood or soak because I was unsure if it would affect lume on the bezel or crystal gasket. Let it sit for 30 min.

That didn't appear to work, so then I did the heat gun (hair dryer) thing. Bezel insert popped right out with minimal persuasion via Xacto knife. Having done this with heat alone, I think the +solvent tek helped with ease of removal. Cleaned adhesive residue left on the bezel with Goof Off on a cloth.

From this:










To this:










For those inevitably wondering, I did not do the dial and hands mod. This was a Nazario Ghost, guts of which ended up in, I think, a 36mm explorer style case. Interesting now that it has none of the original Nazario parts on the face, but still has the WatchGauge engraved logo on the caseback.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RmacMD said:


> The image of a NTH man.
> View attachment 16004193


I guess that means I'm not an NTH man. Because I do not resemble that dude in any way, shape or form.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> This was a Nazario Ghost, guts of which ended up in, I think, a 36mm explorer style case.


38mm SARB-like case from a LIW Islander ISL-36.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)




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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

RmacMD said:


> The image of a NTH man.
> View attachment 16004193


That's everyman trying to sneak another watch past the wife!


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I guess that means I'm not an NTH man. Because I do not resemble that dude in any way, shape or form.





Rhorya said:


> That's everyman trying to sneak another watch past the wife!


You guys do recognize who that is, right?


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> You guys do recognize who that is, right?


Red Skelton?


----------



## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)

RmacMD said:


> You guys do recognize who that is, right?


The Saint


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> View attachment 16004313
> 
> 
> View attachment 16004315


That thing looks amazing in sunlight!!!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Sheesh. You young guys....

Secret Agent Man, aka Danger Man:






Watch Secret Agent Season One | Prime Video


Patrick McGoohan (The Prisoner) stars as John Drake in Secret Agent, the popular television series from the Golden Age of Spy Thrillers, the 1960s.



www.amazon.com


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Sheesh. You young guys....
> 
> Secret Agent Man, aka Danger Man:
> 
> ...


Well that answers that... The 60s.

Fellas. I was born in '85.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I was born 1958, but it was 1972-3 before I saw a TV.


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Rhorya said:


> I was born 1958, but it was 1972-3 before I saw a TV.


I needs more


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

HammyMan37 said:


> I needs more


Rural south and farm life. I was aware of them, but the parents never got one until about 72-3. Then I watched all the shows I could on weekends. 3-stooges, tarzan, lone ranger, bowery boys, thriller theatre, laurel & hardy, all the great B&W shows.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

RotorRonin said:


> 38mm SARB-like case from a LIW Islander ISL-36.


I _freaking love_ what's been done to that Nazario Ghost.

I really like the Tudor oyster-date, Cali dial, and that looks dead similar. I rarely think modded watches are total wins, though they're usually fine. 
But that takes the brilliant original Nazario Ghost, and makes an equally brilliant but different watch out of it.

? X1000


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Well that answers that... The 60s.
> 
> Fellas. I was born in '85.


Honestly, I did a google search on the image.

I have a vague recollection of 60's tv, but I was raised internationally, and didn't really watch until the 70's.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Sheesh. You young guys....
> 
> Secret Agent Man, aka Danger Man:
> 
> ...


The Prisoner was always a favorite of mine...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

The Bearded and Rhorya both get a pass for legit excuses.
dmjonez was getting a _star_, but lost it after he said he used the Goggle machine, but now gets a 1/2 star for being honest.
Maybe HammyMan37 is trying to be a wisea$$.
Cowboytime swung and missed. Saint = Roger Moore.









And I guess I have dated myself. Damn, it's bedtime!


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> The Prisoner was always a favorite of mine...


Don't forget The Big Valley. And in second grade nothing was cooler than The Six Million Dollar Man!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

catsteeth said:


> I _freaking love_ what's been done to that Nazario Ghost.
> 
> I really like the Tudor oyster-date, Cali dial, and that looks dead similar. I rarely think modded watches are total wins, though they're usually fine.
> But that takes the brilliant original Nazario Ghost, and makes an equally brilliant but different watch out of it.
> ...


Thanks man! A birth year copy of that particular Tudor is a (true) grail for me.

On a jubilee it's even closer to the original, though still plenty distinct enough to be a true homage and not anywhere close to a clone. Actually, I prefer the white cathedral hands and the skeleton indices. Modern proportions (38mm diameter) is the cherry on top.


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> The Bearded and Rhorya both get a pass for legit excuses.
> dmjonez was getting a _star_, but lost it after he said he used the Goggle machine, but now gets a 1/2 star for being honest.
> Maybe HammyMan37 is trying to be a wisea$$.
> Cowboytime swung and missed. Saint = Roger Moore.
> ...


Hammyman was being a smartass but also had 0 idea.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerb today..









Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

RotorRonin said:


> 38mm SARB-like case from a LIW Islander ISL-36.


Was this a straight swap, or were there dial size issues?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RmacMD said:


> The Bearded and Rhorya both get a pass for legit excuses.
> dmjonez was getting a _star_, but lost it after he said he used the Goggle machine, but now gets a 1/2 star for being honest.
> Maybe HammyMan37 is trying to be a wisea$$.
> Cowboytime swung and missed. Saint = Roger Moore.
> ...


See... just another sign of my age. 
When I hear Saint or The Saint, I think Val Kilmer.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> See... just another sign of my age.
> When I hear Saint or The Saint, I think Val Kilmer.
> View attachment 16005509


I think NFL team or Boondock Saints


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

HammyMan37 said:


> Hammyman was being a smartass but also had 0 idea.


A _star_ for you young man!


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> A _star_ for you young man!


At least I answered


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

All colour coordinated with my super trendy PPE.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Finally i got an excuse! Now to find a way to use it….


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> The Bearded and Rhorya both get a pass for legit excuses.
> dmjonez was getting a _star_, but lost it after he said he used the Goggle machine, but now gets a 1/2 star for being honest.
> Maybe HammyMan37 is trying to be a wisea$$.
> Cowboytime swung and missed. Saint = Roger Moore.


1/2 a star. Boom. I'll gladly accept that.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Coffee and Barracudas









Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## pedro0223 (Aug 11, 2012)

Hey Doc (or anyone else who may have ordered a nearly new NTH recently), does the current offer of a free rubber strap include the nearly new watches? 

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pedro0223 said:


> Hey Doc (or anyone else who may have ordered a nearly new NTH recently), does the current offer of a free rubber strap include the nearly new watches?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk


Nope.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

pedro0223 said:


> Hey Doc (or anyone else who may have ordered a nearly new NTH recently), does the current offer of a free rubber strap include the nearly new watches?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk


I understand why you would think that they are, the banner states "any" sub or 2k1.









Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

First gen









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## wolfstyle (Aug 1, 2010)

Will there be any new 2K1 models coming? Timeline?
Any plans to upscale any of the sub models to 2K1?


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)




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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> View attachment 16008601
> 
> 
> View attachment 16008602
> ...


Nato really works well there.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wolfstyle said:


> Will there be any new 2K1 models coming? Timeline?
> Any plans to upscale any of the sub models to 2K1?


We might make more / different 2K1's at some point in the future, but we don't have any immediate plans, so there is no timeline, at least not yet.

Honestly, I'm glad I was semi-conservative in my approach to making a larger version of the NTH Subs. Despite on all the guys who commented "I just wish they were larger", it seems like the 40mm size is still more popular.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> We might make more / different 2K1's at some point in the future, but we don't have any immediate plans, so there is no timeline, at least not yet.
> 
> Honestly, I'm glad I was semi-conservative in my approach to making a larger version of the NTH Subs. Despite on all the guys who commented "I just wish they were larger", it seems like the 40mm size is still more popular.


Bah, people and their Baby-G size watches! I realize my Tropics are 40mm, but they seem to wear full size (and weren't available any bigger). Heck, even holding Swiftsure face to face with Azores, there's hardly a width difference. I'll be holding out for Tropics with different dials! &#8230;and ideally no smaller.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Bah, people and their Baby-G size watches! I realize my Tropics are 40mm, but they seem to wear full size (and weren't available any bigger). Heck, even holding Swiftsure face to face with Azores, there's hardly a width difference. I'll be holding out for Tropics with different dials! &#8230;and ideally no smaller.


The Tropics wear bigger because they're "all-dial". The dimensions are almost identical to the 40mm Subs, but that's the difference the design makes.

The DevilRays are thicker than the 2K1's, but otherwise, they have similar diameters, and yet I feel like the DR's wear smaller, and not just because of the shorter lug length.

Case shape / design matters.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> We might make more / different 2K1's at some point in the future, but we don't have any immediate plans, so there is no timeline, at least not yet.
> 
> Honestly, I'm glad I was semi-conservative in my approach to making a larger version of the NTH Subs. Despite on all the guys who commented "I just wish they were larger", it seems like the 40mm size is still more popular.


I'd wager the 40mm subs will always be the more popular of the two. But as a dude who's collection is larger than 40mm by about 2:1, _please _dont abandon the 2K1s.

I'm only one dude, but if another dial design comes out for the 2K1s that grabs me, I won't hesitate to buy. That's pretty much a guarantee.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

&#8230;and besides, 40 schmorty&#8230;make me a *55.5 × 53.6 × 17.5 mm&#8230;








*


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## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> We might make more / different 2K1's at some point in the future, but we don't have any immediate plans, so there is no timeline, at least not yet.
> 
> Honestly, I'm glad I was semi-conservative in my approach to making a larger version of the NTH Subs. Despite on all the guys who commented "I just wish they were larger", it seems like the 40mm size is still more popular.


Not sure about others but for me, the hope was for 2K1's with the familiar dial/hand designs of the original 40mm NTH Subs....basically "I just wish they were larger" versions of the originals....might be why the 40mm's are more popular?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sobwanhoser said:


> Not sure about others but for me, the hope was for 2K1's with the familiar dial/hand designs of the original 40mm NTH Subs....basically "I just wish they were larger" versions of the originals....might be why the 40mm's are more popular?


Your read on it is one possible explanation. Logically, it's valid.

But I'm looking at the numbers. When I compare to all the 40mm Subs designs, I don't think the issue is that we whiffed on the dial / handset / bezel design.

I'm not certain it's all about the case size either, though.

I suspect it's at least partly about the mis-alignment of our established brand image with the real market opportunity for larger dive watches of that Sub-esque style.

NTH made its name on the strength of the 40mm Subs. The 40mm Subs put NTH on the map, and have been our core product since we launched.

People like the Tropics and the DevilRay, but there isn't as much competition for those models. Compared to all the Sub-esque style of diving watches out there, there are far fewer compressor-style watches, or turtle-case watches, competing in the same price ranges as the Tropics and DevilRay.

Even though every brand seems to be doing the modest-size / vintage-inspired thing since we started doing it, I don't think the market has become fatigued by it yet, and I think that NTH still does it better than most. Most are still not quite nailing the right mix of specs, dimensions, ergonomics, and style. Even five years after NTH launched, the Subs are still a benchmark for thinness vs WR spec.

I think the market for bigger, chunkier dive watches has been more saturated, for longer, and the customers for those bigger watches have their favorite, go-to brands. NTH isn't really top of mind for those guys. I think that the guys who like those watches don't care about the 2K1's thinness, or quality. I think they're more focused on the "spec monsters". Case thickness and ergonomics aren't really things they get worked up about.

Let me put it this way - the 40mm Subs, the Tropics, and the DevilRay are all answers to questions a lot of people were asking, but for which there weren't a lot of good answers. The 2K1's are an answer to a question not as many people were asking, and in retrospect, probably already had some good answers.

I mean, if you like Doxa Subs, but don't want to spend $2k to get one, what are the good alternatives? Aevig Huldra, Maranez Sammui, Nodus Avalon, Synchron Military, and the Dagaz Aurora. None of those watches were available when we revealed the DevilRay, and I'd say only 3 of them make a credible case for being better than the Doxa in any aspect.

Similarly, when we revealed the Tropics, there really weren't many, if any good choices if you wanted a well-made, affordable homage to the EPSA-cased compressors of the '60's.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I just wasn't asking the right questions. Before I started working on the NTH Subs, I made people tell me all the things they didn't like about all the other Sub homages which were available at the time. That list gave us a set of design imperatives to work against. The thinking was, if we could address all the things people didn't like about the alternative options, we'd have a winner.

Maybe I should have done that same sort of exercise before making the 2K1's.

Maybe it's not too late.

What's wrong with all the other ~44mm Sub-esque dive watches out there? What's stopping people from buying them? What would our watch need to do that those watches don't do, what would we need to get right that they got wrong, to get people to buy our watch, when people won't buy the others?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> What's wrong with all the other ~44mm Sub-esque dive watches out there? What's stopping people from buying them? What would our watch need to do that those watches don't do, what would we need to get right that they got wrong, to get people to buy our watch, when people won't buy the others?


Since I bought a Swiftsure (white) and absolutely love it, and have a Thresher (black) on the way, I may not be the person to ask since I think you already nailed it (for sure with the white Swiftsure w/light blue markers and 3, 6, 9). I'm sure I'll like the Thresher too, but I know I would have liked a more unique dial color and more unique indices even more. I went ahead and got the Thresher in black because it's my first black dial and I wanted a 2k1 set. Seems everyone's divers have set dial colors, all usually very conservative. I look for watch styles that everybody else doesn't have on their wrist everyday. I also think there could be more unique bezels. Or what about a diver that could double as a UTC or dual time zone? I know others offer that, but usually at increased cost. I'm sure I'll think of more later.

As an example of my unique comments, I joined WatchGauge waitlist for the Tugela 3.0-Shaka WatchGauge Exclusive. Why? White dial, Zulu styled indices, comes with additional Zulu strap&#8230;all told, something you don't see everyday.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Your read on it is one possible explanation. Logically, it's valid.
> 
> But I'm looking at the numbers. When I compare to all the 40mm Subs designs, I don't think the issue is that we whiffed on the dial / handset / bezel design.
> 
> ...


If I were you I would probably never go over 43mm unless there were a major market shift. I know sales occur at larger diameters, but my assumption is that the bulk of the bell curve for men's watches today is 38-42 with reasonably sized L2L (44-50). Big brands have the reach and breadth to offer the larger watches and still move them....they are also expected to have them in their portfolio.

I realize you already know this crap, just typing as I think it through


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The 2K1 proportions are probably the best I've experienced in a watch especially when considering it's specifications on paper. I've been wearing mine non-stop since I got it in April. I'd like to see more colorways and designs but I know that might be a ways off. I'd like a matte black dial, painted indices, Scorpene style full indexed and lumed matte black dial, off-white (not brown or patina) lume.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Isn't there a general slowdown in watch sales / trades across the board during 2021? Maybe that could explain difference in how 2K1's perform on release year (2021? 2020?) vs how the 40mm sub perform(ed) on release year(s).

Also - I know this is anecdotal and might be plain wrong, but I kinda fell WUS has become far less active in 2021 compared to, say, 2017. Much less trades, flips, and generally less posting activity. IF that's the case, then that reduces the potential customer range that NTH targets. (IF)

Fwiw I think the 2k1's look great, and probably actually fix a reason why I kept flipping the 6 or so subs I got over the years - the 40mm subs wore small on wrist; 2k1's would obviously fix that. So why did I not buy one? ... well... going down in price, honestly. I found a good price/quality/looks point with san martin (wearing their bb58 homage now, and its scarily good for the price), and going way above that in price - whether for a micro or "main brand", I don't really have a good argument for doing so. I think NTH - and most other micros - have a more difficult fight to convince potential buyers now than was the case in '15, '16, '17. It ain't fair but it is what is is.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

My wrist is 7-1/2” with a wide flat back, so I like a larger size.

36mm is way too small, 38 is the lower floor of the size that I feel looks ok on my wrist. 40 and up works well. I like divers, and don’t mind the weight too much.

The biggest thing I feel is important to my watch selection is contrast, and easy to see and interpret the time based on easy to identify the hands, position on the dial face, the hour markers are distinct and easy to identify which is which.

Most of this is due to my tired old blurry eyes need this when I don’t have my glasses on.

This is where I start when I’m looking at a watch to add to the collection. Then I’ll go through the rest of the checklist items like what is the movement, date function, WR, lume, quality of fit and finish, materials, etc. 

So for me, “at a glance” legibility is where it all starts.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Rhorya said:


> This is where I start when I'm looking at a watch to add to the collection. Then I'll go through the rest of the checklist items like what is the movement, date function, WR, lume, quality of fit and finish, materials, etc.


A lot of this hold true for me as well, but especially "what is the movement". Please keep using your quality movements and don't drop to junk movements like some other micro brands (who are producing almost straight up knock offs). I will gladly pay a bit more for a quality movement&#8230;and given a choice I will almost always buy from an American company with a solid reputation, regardless of where parts are sourced. Quality counts!

Almost forgot, I was interested in the new Devilray in orange, but then once I saw the movement included, decided I'd rather have the Thresher with the Miyota as I've had excellent results with the three NTH I have with the Miyota. I have a Seiko with a Seiko movement (4R35) that doesn't hold a candle, accuracy wise, to my NTH. I'll pay for that too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> If I were you I would probably never go over 43mm unless there were a major market shift. I know sales occur at larger diameters, but my assumption is that the bulk of the bell curve for men's watches today is 38-42 with reasonably sized L2L (44-50). Big brands have the reach and breadth to offer the larger watches and still move them....they are also expected to have them in their portfolio.
> 
> I realize you already know this crap, just typing as I think it through


Don't you dare assume I know this crap!

I actually never thought of it that way.

You may have a point.

Halios does less volume. I believe Magrette does less volume too. Not sure about the volume Benarus was doing before Steve and Ralph broke up, and Steve shifted all his focus to Raven. But they all made >44mm models at one time. Yet that was some time back.

Halios now seems to be sticking to 38mm-40mm. Raven has since scaled their models down to ~39mm to 42mm.

Magrette is hanging tough at 42mm-44mm, but I don't see peeps on the forum discussing Magrette as much as they used to.

I'm shocked to see Ralph's Benarus has models at 38mm and 40mm, considering most of their range seems to hover between 45mm and 49mm (YUGE!). But like Magrette, I don't see Benarus getting nearly as much discussion lately.

I'm certain Zelos does a lot more volume. They have models from 38mm to 44mm. I'd love to know how their sales skew according to case size.

I don't know. Ocean Crawler seems to only make models around 43mm-45mm. Straton seems to skew larger. Gruppo Gamma skews larger. They all seem to do well enough.

Nodus models range from 39mm to 43.5mm. I think their volume is about the same as NTH's. There again, I'd love to know how they view this, if they notice a trend in the sales pace of their models, according to each model's size.

I'm sure Timefactors does more volume, and appears to be doing a lot of it at 36mm-40mm (though mostly non-divers).

I read all the discussions about "the death of big watches", and I honestly don't really see it. I feel like the microbrand market may have shifted its center of gravity lower, when I see all the 39mm-40mm models being launched. Maybe I'm more attuned to those models, because they're sized similar to the NTH Subs. Maybe I'm overlooking many of the larger models.

Maybe the mainstream market has shifted downward too, but I'm not sure. Rolex seems to be bucking (or setting?) the trend, by increasing the size of its mainstay models. Seiko, Citizen, Orient, and a lot of the Swiss brands don't seem to have gotten the "big watches are dead" memo. Rado, Longines, Certina, Oris - all seem to skew larger.

Maybe I missed my window of opportunity to make a larger version of the Subs. Maybe my sales volume isn't large enough to support as wide a range of sizes / styles - that's a key factor in why I don't make anyhting smaller than 40mm. Maybe the NTH brand is too closely associated with the 40mm Subs to think an XL version would do well.

Maybe I just whiffed on the 2K1's dial / hands / bezel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> The 2K1 proportions are probably the best I've experienced in a watch especially when considering it's specifications on paper. I've been wearing mine non-stop since I got it in April. I'd like to see more colorways and designs but I know that might be a ways off. I'd like a matte black dial, painted indices, Scorpene style full indexed and lumed matte black dial, off-white (not brown or patina) lume.


I appreciate the kind words regarding the case design, especially as that's an aspect I tend to obsess over.

If I had my druthers, we'd be able to produce designs in smaller numbers, with more variety. This is one of the reasons I cite manufacturers' MOQ's as one of the biggest challenges facing the industry today. They force brands to be more conservative with the designs they produce, because we're forced to produce designs in larger numbers.

When we were working on the 2K1's, the design took us longer, for several reasons, but a big factor was my desire to avoid simply making them a fairly close homage to existing designs, like the Pelagos or Sinn 857. We wanted something original, yet familiar.

In retrospect, I think we proved something I already knew - homages tend to sell pretty well, which is why brands make them.

If we'd simply made a good quality yet less expensive homage to the Pelagos, Deep-Sea, 857, etc, I'm sure we would have caught a lot of flack from online homage haters, but I also suspect we'd see people hailing the 2K1's as the go-to "poor man's" alternative of those models.

As it is, I think the Swiftsure and the Thresher, when considered on their merits, make compelling alternatives to the likes of the Longines Hydroconquest, and other entry-level-luxury divers around the $1k price point, if not higher.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Size is fascinating. When I started in 2015 I was all 44-45mm. Then in 2019 early 2020 I went very much for 40mm. I was definitely with the zeitgeist there in that everyone was reducing. 
But now I like slightly larger watches again. But not too big!

Now my settled sweet spot is:
40-41mm for all dial watches
41-43mm for bezelled watches 

I do have watches that buck that trend of course, take the 40mm Barracuda that I love.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Maybe I just whiffed on the 2K1's dial / hands / bezel.


Maybe model names as well? While Thresher is pretty awesome, Swiftsure is quite the tongue twister and may have caused some to balk. But then the black and blue Threshers look almost like every dive watch in the wild, so yes, dial/hands/bezel.

Another possibility. If I had never bought a Seiko Automatic, wanted to learn more about automatics, found WUS, joined, read lots and lots of posts, I'd have still never heard of NTH (or WatchGauge). Of course I've not heard of all those you just listed either, but just sayin'. A vast majority of potential buyers, 2k1s or otherwise, likely don't even know what you have to offer. I know I didn't until about 2 months ago.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I appreciate the kind words regarding the case design, especially as that's an aspect I tend to obsess over.
> 
> If I had my druthers, we'd be able to produce designs in smaller numbers, with more variety. This is one of the reasons I cite manufacturers' MOQ's as one of the biggest challenges facing the industry today. They force brands to be more conservative with the designs they produce, because we're forced to produce designs in larger numbers.
> 
> ...


I don't find any NTH hate on the interwebs. Certainly not on the level of the Chinglish brands like SM, Hroudland, Proxima, etc.
Nor do you attract the hate Steinhart gets, yet you market at similar price points and quality. (Though they do more expensive models too, Chrono's, etc).

I've no idea way, but I've always thought that it may be because you have many more models with your own distinct DNA in. Brands like Steinhart have a much higher percentage of the sku's as straight copies.

*I'm certainly not a homage hater, and I'm not knocking Steinhart or SM, they make _excellent_ value watches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Isn't there a general slowdown in watch sales / trades across the board during 2021? Maybe that could explain difference in how 2K1's perform on release year (2021? 2020?) vs how the 40mm sub perform(ed) on release year(s).
> 
> Also - I know this is anecdotal and might be plain wrong, but I kinda fell WUS has become far less active in 2021 compared to, say, 2017. Much less trades, flips, and generally less posting activity. IF that's the case, then that reduces the potential customer range that NTH targets. (IF)
> 
> Fwiw I think the 2k1's look great, and probably actually fix a reason why I kept flipping the 6 or so subs I got over the years - the 40mm subs wore small on wrist; 2k1's would obviously fix that. So why did I not buy one? ... well... going down in price, honestly. I found a good price/quality/looks point with san martin (wearing their bb58 homage now, and its scarily good for the price), and going way above that in price - whether for a micro or "main brand", I don't really have a good argument for doing so. I think NTH - and most other micros - have a more difficult fight to convince potential buyers now than was the case in '15, '16, '17. It ain't fair but it is what is is.


The entire industry went into a sales slump mid-way through 2019. I think it must have worsened in 2020, due to the global slowdown associated with Covid-19.

I haven't paid as much attention to what the industry as a whole is doing this year. I'm focused on my own business. It's hard for me to know if anything in the landscape has changed, especially when we've been adding new retailers and releasing new models, which tends to muddy the waters a bit.

But, my seat of the pants impression is that the industry is still reeling. We're not yet seeing any real "bounce" as the covid lock-downs are being lifted, and the economy sputters back to life.

I don't mind that the Chinese factory brands like San Martin are improving the quality of their product. I generally see that as a good thing, to the extent if puts pressure on micros to up their game in other ways. I hope it forces micros to find other ways to differentiate, aside from simply competing on price.

As I've said to many brand owners, "what will you do when another brand offers essentially the same product you do, but for less, just as you're now offering your product for less than your competitors?"

I'm certain our quality is better than what you get from a Chinese factory brand for $300, even though I agree those factory brands are delivering a hell of a lot for what they charge. I'm certain our service and overall customer experience are better. Both contribute to how a brand differentiates.

When I visited China in 2018, my primary vendor predicted that within 10 years, we'd see a lot of Chinese startup brands popping up to compete with microbrands like mine. I saw, and still see the only path to survival for brands like mine is to follow in the wake of the bigger brands as they shift up-market.

As long as we're offering a compelling alternative in the space between entry-level and entry-level-luxury, we'll be fine. Any brand that gets stuck trying to compete head-to-head, specs-for-price against the Chinese won't be.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> A lot of this hold true for me as well, but especially "what is the movement". Please keep using your quality movements and don't drop to junk movements like some other micro brands (who are producing almost straight up knock offs). I will gladly pay a bit more for a quality movement&#8230;and given a choice I will almost always buy from an American company with a solid reputation, regardless of where parts are sourced. Quality counts!
> 
> Almost forgot, I was interested in the new Devilray in orange, but then once I saw the movement included, decided I'd rather have the Thresher with the Miyota as I've had excellent results with the three NTH I have with the Miyota. I have a Seiko with a Seiko movement (4R35) that doesn't hold a candle, accuracy wise, to my NTH. I'll pay for that too.


We've had very good experience using the Seiko movements in the DevilRay. They respond very well to a bit of regulation. We haven't gotten any complaints regarding their performance.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Maybe model names as well? While Thresher is pretty awesome, Swiftsure is quite the tongue twister and may have caused some to balk. But then the black and blue Threshers look almost like every dive watch in the wild, so yes, dial/hands/bezel.
> 
> Another possibility. If I had never bought a Seiko Automatic, wanted to learn more about automatics, found WUS, joined, read lots and lots of posts, I'd have still never heard of NTH (or WatchGauge). Of course I've not heard of all those you just listed either, but just sayin'. A vast majority of potential buyers, 2k1s or otherwise, likely don't even know what you have to offer. I know I didn't until about 2 months ago.


Maybe the name has something to do with it. I've tried to avoid the Submarine names that appear intimidating at a glance. Swiftsure and Skipjack, as two examples, may not roll as easily off the tongue, but they're much less intimidating than many of the others we could have chosen.

Market awareness is a challenge for any small brand, and many so-called "big" brands. Once past Rolex and Seiko, brand name awareness in the mass market drops off steeply.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

When it comes to size I have been all over the place as I learnt more about watches and my own tastes. I started out wearing bigger watches but I gradually realised what worked for me. More than anything it comes down to thickness comparative to size.

For me it is divers watches between 40-44mm and less than 13mm thick. For all dial watches it is 36-40mm and less than 11mm thick. I do have watches outside those preferences but they just don't get worn anymore.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Don't you dare assume I know this crap!
> 
> I actually never thought of it that way.
> 
> ...


I think you've just been pricing yourself out of competition. Halios delivers a mostly Swiss made, hand assembled product for the same price as you. Christopher Ward same price as you. Both you get way more quality. San Martin is price ~$300 less and is same quality as you. I think you need to offer original design at these prices or drop the price that your competitors. Also halios is putting out 250+ watches a month. I think you make a really good homage, that's seen its price creep up to a place that's hard. Throwing in a cheap rubber strap that doesn't really fit does little to close the price gap.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

JLS36 said:


> I think you've just been pricing yourself out of competition. Halios delivers a mostly Swiss made, hand assembled product for the same price as you. Christopher Ward same price as you. Both you get way more quality. San Martin is price ~$300 less and is same quality as you. I think you need to offer original design at these prices or drop the price that your competitors. Also halios is putting out 250+ watches a month. I think you make a really good homage, that's seen its price creep up to a place that's hard. Throwing in a cheap rubber strap that doesn't really fit does little to close the price gap.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


"Way more quality" is a very subjective statement&#8230;what's "quality" for you is not necessarily quality for others. Personally I'll never own a watch where the maker puts some variation of his name on every model. And "mostly Swiss" is not Swiss, but that's a never ending argument. Companies should not have to price themselves into oblivion because consumers think products should be sold at cost. I'd challenge anyone who makes the argument "drop prices, drop prices" to actually become an entrepreneur.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Maybe I just whiffed on the 2K1's dial / hands / bezel.


To be completely honest, and this is only my personal opinion, the Thresher was a whiff.

It's just boring to my eyes. It evokes nothing. As much as I truly love the NTH brand, the Thresher is just another watch in a sea of thousands.

The Swiftsure however, seems to have a personality, so to speak. Especially the Polar.

But then again, my preference is towards arabics, so...?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> To be completely honest, and this is only my personal opinion, the Thresher was a whiff.
> 
> It's just boring to my eyes. It evokes nothing. As much as I truly love the NTH brand, the Thresher is just another watch in a sea of thousands.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Imagine the awesomeness of a polar Thresher w/Swiftsure accouterments!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> "Way more quality" is a very subjective statement&#8230;what's "quality" for you is not necessarily quality for others. Personally I'll never own a watch where the maker puts some variation of his name on every model. And "mostly Swiss" is not Swiss, but that's a never ending argument. Companies should not have to price themselves into oblivion because consumers think products should be sold at cost. I'd challenge anyone who makes the argument "drop prices, drop prices" to actually become an entrepreneur.


You could buy a nth sub for $400 5 years ago. Atticus just sold nth level watches for $400. Competition has grown and improved you can buy the same nth watch from maybe even the same factory for $200+ less. I would imagine we will see an affordable version of nth via and islander homage sometime soon. And quality is certainly something you can judge. Nth makes a good watch at a high price. I think what doesn't get noted enough is that docvail is the best salesman in the micro world he's managed to sell a watch for hundreds more than it should go for

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Maybe I just whiffed on the 2K1's dial / hands / bezel.


Nah, not a whiff. It's a basic, very legible dive watch with tons of lume. It just might seem too basic/boring to some because of the increased dial real estate. It fills the void between my 39-40mm watches and my Deep Blue chunkers VERY nicely.

As per the pricing, I feel you're in line and right about where you should be for an American company that designs their own products. The watches are clearly well made, accurate, and look great; one should expect to pay about $600-800 for that these days, and you're right in the middle of it. When I first started buying/selling on a regular basis, I never thought I'd buy an NTH because I thought they were too expensive, but eventually I learned that that's what I need to pay for something nice that will actually stay in my collection and not get flipped in a few months. When I leave this "hobby", I'll have 4 watches: my Doxa, my wedding watch, the Oceanus, and one of the 40mm subs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't know why I do this, but here goes...

Chris Ward, Halios, San Martin - if you like them better, go buy one.

Chris Ward - They make very good quality. I've said many times, I think they're a bargain, considering their quality and features. Go find me the diver you can buy from them, right now, for less than $895. Find one on a bracelet for less than $1015.

I'll wait.

The last email I got from them, about one of their frequent sales, was _UP TO_ 25% off _SELECT_ models. The C60 Elite 1000 was down to $1200, from $1600, on a fabric strap. It's $1500 if you want it on the bracelet.

Halios - Also good quality, and I'd say incrementally better than NTH's, though only incrementally. Go buy one, now, new, from Halios, at any price.

I'll wait.

You can't. They're sold out, and have been for some time.

The last time I spoke with Jason, it seemed like he was looking for ways to increase his production capacity and volume. But I seriously doubt he's now pushing out 250 units per month. That would be exponentially more than he did just 2-3 years ago. And if he was making that many, every release wouldn't sell out instantly. You'd be ale to buy one now, today, this instant.

Either way, the fact that all his releases sell out, instantly, just goes to show he could (and I'd argue he should) raise his price. $775 for the Universa is cheap, by any objective measure.

San Martin - the quality is the same? Put down the pipe. You've gotten way too high.

As easily as you can rattle off a half dozen brands selling for less, I can rattle off about as many that sell for more.

We're consistently turning our inventory over at the correct rate, and maintaining the correct level of available inventory. Pricing isn't a problem for us.

Don't know how many times you'll need me to explain this to you, but if you're looking for the brand which sells the watch with the most specs for the least money, look elsewhere. Good luck, and good riddance.

The discussion was about the relative popularity of various models based on their size and styling. Interrupting to inject your tediously banal pricing criticism is just the same old trolling. You need a new routine, mate.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch&#8230;









Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I don't know why I do this, but here goes...
> 
> Chris Ward, Halios, San Martin - if you like them better, go buy one.
> 
> ...


I'm assuming JLwhatshisface is in the house. Blocked that dude a good while back.

Much nicer not seeing the same crap over and over.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You could buy an NTH for $400 five years ago?

Yes, if you were one of the first 50 pre-orders, and you were willing to wait 6 months for delivery. The average price of an NTH Subs pre-order was $500.

Surely you understand the concept of inflation, as well as price increases which come with quality improvements, no?

Those models which sold in pre-order for $400 were $600 and $625 when they were in-stock, ready to ship. Adjusting for inflation, and without any cost increases whatsoever, those prices should be $808 and $842 today, making our current prices a better bargain now then they ever were before, especially if we consider the improvements which have been made to both the product and our operations.

EDIT - _Welp, don't know how it happened, but apparently my inflation calculator had some bad inputs. $600 and $625 in 2016 would be $688 and $716 this year. Since the Subs are all $700, I'd say we've just barely kept pace with inflation, and only if we ignore the cost increases we've absorbed with improvements to quality of both the product and service._

Likewise, you could order an Atticus for $400, in pre-order, if you were willing to wait 6+ months for delivery. As Atticus is just launching, prices are going to be a better value when you compare to a more established brand, by necessity, just as NTH had to, and every other startup has to deal with downward market pressure on their prices.

Please, dude, go away now. Your arguments never change, no matter how many times they're defeated.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'm assuming JLwhatshisface is in the house. Blocked that dude a good while back.
> 
> Much nicer not seeing the same crap over and over.


You guessed right.

Believe it or not, I have him blocked, too, but every so often, when I look at the list of threads I'm subscribed to, I'll see he was the last person to comment on this thread. Curiosity sometimes compels me to log out, just to see what inanity he's bringing to the table.

I keep hoping it'll be something new. So far, it never is.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

JLS36 said:


> I think what doesn't get noted enough is that docvail is the best salesman in the micro world he's managed to sell a watch for hundreds more than it should go for.


I get it now, you have some personal vendetta and you think docvail should sell complete watches for the cost of the movements he put in them. No sense discussing further. BTW, some of your "facts" are rather suspect.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

More back at the ranch&#8230;day 2, just couldn't take it off!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Nah, not a whiff. It's a basic, very legible dive watch with tons of lume. It just might seem too basic/boring to some because of the increased dial real estate. It fills the void between my 39-40mm watches and my Deep Blue chunkers VERY nicely.
> 
> As per the pricing, I feel you're in line and right about where you should be for an American company that designs their own products. The watches are clearly well made, accurate, and look great; one should expect to pay about $600-800 for that these days, and you're right in the middle of it. When I first started buying/selling on a regular basis, I never thought I'd buy an NTH because I thought they were too expensive, but eventually I learned that that's what I need to pay for something nice that will actually stay in my collection and not get flipped in a few months. When I leave this "hobby", I'll have 4 watches: my Doxa, my wedding watch, the Oceanus, and one of the 40mm subs.


I have a soft spot for Raven watches. That's sort of how I view their designs - basic, but by that I only mean they're not at all fussy in any way. And they're very legible.

They're also very well made, with good case designs. And priced a bit higher than NTH, but Raven doesn't seem to struggle to sell them at those prices, so I agree that we're in the right neighborhood with our prices.

The 2K1's aren't a bust. We've sold through about 2/3 of what we assembled. I just have to be objective when I look at what we produce, and how each version of each model sells.

I'm currently tracking global inventory for over 60 different SKUs, across all model ranges. In any grouping, there will be a best-seller, and a worst-seller, and everything else will be somewhere in between.

It's critical for a business owner to be able to look at the numbers, and assess the performance of each product, in order to make not just good, but better decisions in the future, if the business is to continue growing.

For most models, our sales pace follows a fairly predictable pattern. The 2K1's haven't deviated much from that pattern.

And, as I said, I was conservative in my approach with the 2K1's, because I (correctly) predicted they wouldn't be as popular as the 40mm Subs, or the Tropics or DevilRays.

I kinda feel like I got it right, and all we're doing is debating why I was right. If peeps think I got it wrong, I'd love to see them take a few cuts at the pitches I've been seeing.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> I get it now, you have some personal vendetta and you think docvail should sell complete watches for the cost of the movements he put in them. No sense discussing further. BTW, some of your "facts" are rather suspect.


Nope that's not my stance. I'm driven by facts.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

This modern internet thing is weirding people out. All through human history if someone didn't like a stranger, they'd not go up to this person and start telling them how much they disliked them.

Similarly, if they walked into a shop and thought the product expensive they wouldn't start berating the staff, they'd turn round and leave. So wasting no mental energy and time on issues that have nothing to do with them.

It's modern social media, it's encouraged people to express opinions, that in polite society would've remained unsaid. 
There's a willingness to pontificate about others business where there's no evident knowledge of the said business.
*Dunning-Kruger syndrome.

If something is expensive, which it may or may not be. That doesn't mean there's a duty to inform the vendor.
The simplest thing to do is go else where and never return, not wasting anymore thought on it.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> What would our watch need to do that those watches don't do, what would we need to get right that they got wrong, to get people to buy our watch, when people won't buy the others?


Make it 38mm...?


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> More back at the ranch&#8230;day 2, just couldn't take it off!
> 
> View attachment 16010187


I like that Azores on that green nato, lovely ?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Maybe the name has something to do with it. I've tried to avoid the Submarine names that appear intimidating at a glance. Swiftsure and Skipjack, as two examples, may not roll as easily off the tongue, but they're much less intimidating than many of the others we could have chosen.
> 
> Market awareness is a challenge for any small brand, and many so-called "big" brands. Once past Rolex and Seiko, brand name awareness in the mass market drops off steeply.


Incredibly true ?

One that still surprises me (and supports your statement) is Oris. They have spent significant $$ advertising for years. It is not uncommon to see them on TV at sporting events, online, even bill boards in some metro markets. Last time I was in Qingdao they had a serious presence on signs there as well as I walked around the city.

I have worn an Oris off and on for around a decade, and the only people that recognize the brand are "watch people". I have even met F1 enthusiasts who were not familiar with them. I have had more than one person say "so...it's not a Rolex?"

I noticed you mentioned brands earlier that you do not see on the forums all that often. If they are barely represented on watch forums, they do not even exist as far as non-enthusiasts are concerned.

Now to keep it light hearted, what you need is for @TheBearded to start an IG page to recruit all the best beards, become THE go to place online for the man with a dapper face blanket.....THEN he drops some casual pics of NTH's beside his line of beard grooming products. Boom, sales.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Since people are asking about potential for V.1 sub designs in the 2K1 case, I feel compelled to suggest that I would actually love to see something basic and original like the Thresher in a 40mm case. I think the closest you got to that was the Vanguard which I thought was really attractive, but I'm guessing it probably didn't sell well since it had a short run.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

2k1:

I like what people are saying, that they just wanted the same kind of styles (esp Barracuda, Nacken, and Scorpene) in a larger case. That the case shape was also changed May have been a bonus to some, a drawback to others.

The Thresher seemed extremly legible and reminds me of some of the Citizen Promaster Tough models... in a good way. The Swiftsure, especially in Polar, looks fantastic. Made me wish I could pull off a larger watch. Swiftsure reminded me of a mashup between Breitling models with the arabics, and an Omega SMP (with the triangle at 12).

So on my end, where I barely passed on a Barracuda Polar, I probably would have fell hook, line, and sinker for a Swiftsure v1 sub.

Kudos for listening to people who said they wanted a larger watch, and it sounds like it was not at all a dud, by any means.

Size:

Having done this watch thing for a bit, I've nailed down my "perfect" size: rotating bezel watches, 40mm; plain bezel watchs, 36-38mm. That said, a cushion case with a shorter L2L and I can do larger -- Vostok 710, Seiko SKX, San Martin 6105, Seiko SRPE5x. In the post above, I joked about a 38mm Sub, but in reality, I'd probably balk at that, too small -- the 40mm fits so well, it's one reason I ended up with three...

Probably a Devil Ray would work for me, and I do love me a timer/12hr bezel, but... nah. Style doesn't do it for me. The Tropics, at 40mm and all-dial just look too large on wrist, to my eyes. And I know better than to order a 2k1. FWIW, the San Martin BB58 style is also marginally to large.

That said, Rolex releases at 36mm - Exp I, and DJ - may bring my preferred plain bezel size back into style. Shame _someone_ talked Rusty into 38mm for the Atticus line, but whatevs...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

catsteeth said:


> I like that Azores on that green nato, lovely 👍


The Hunter Green band is a perfect match for the Azores Absinthe color way.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Incredibly true ?
> 
> One that still surprises me (and supports your statement) is Oris. They have spent significant $$ advertising for years. It is not uncommon to see them on TV at sporting events, online, even bill boards in some metro markets. Last time I was in Qingdao they had a serious presence on signs there as well as I walked around the city.
> 
> ...


We can make it a spin of Beans & Bezels....

Beards and Bezels.


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

docvail said:


> Maybe the name has something to do with it. I've tried to avoid the Submarine names that appear intimidating at a glance. Swiftsure and Skipjack, as two examples, may not roll as easily off the tongue, but they're much less intimidating than many of the others we could have chosen.
> 
> Market awareness is a challenge for any small brand, and many so-called "big" brands. Once past Rolex and Seiko, brand name awareness in the mass market drops off steeply.


Despite lurking in WUS for years, I hadn't heard of NTH until I actually created an account so it's mostly branding/naming for me.

The NTH website could use an update. More pictures of submarines and divers in the water and remove the low res ones currently there. People see a product line called "Barracuda" and they want to see barracudas and not an old guy smoking a cigar.

Some of the names like Devilray and Scorpene are killer choices. The names match the product design and evoke strong imagery. Other names like Odin and Oberon have a weaker link from how I see it. Antilles and Azores could be branded under one name. I can't tell them apart at a glance. Nacken sounds like a Scandinavian Kraken so that's fine. But to be honest I don't know what a Swiftsure or a Thresher is and how those names tie to the product.

Doc, you have an excellent product line with a distinct DNA and a good pricing strategy. I'm a simple minded person so for me, logic states that we only need 1 or 2 watches but yet we buy more. It's psychological so a bit of the regrouping/naming of the NTH watches with a dash of hype and marketing could spice things up.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> We can make it a spin of Beans & Bezels....
> 
> Beards and Bezels.


I would grow out my patchy scruff for that!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Saswatch said:


> Despite lurking in WUS for years, I hadn't heard of NTH until I actually created an account so it's mostly branding/naming for me.
> 
> The NTH website could use an update. More pictures of submarines and divers in the water and remove the low res ones currently there. People see a product line called "Barracuda" and they want to see barracudas and not an old guy smoking a cigar.
> 
> ...


I'll beat Doc to the punch on this.

The 40mm sub lineup and the 2K1s are all named after sub classes/individual boats.

The umbrella for the Antilles/Azores is Tropics.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> Despite lurking in WUS for years, I hadn't heard of NTH until I actually created an account so it's mostly branding/naming for me.
> 
> The NTH website could use an update. More pictures of submarines and divers in the water and remove the low res ones currently there. People see a product line called "Barracuda" and they want to see barracudas and not an old guy smoking a cigar.
> 
> ...


Have you been on the NTH site recently? It just went through a major update.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

So, in the event you might like to try some new dial colors/bezel/indices under the "Tropics" umbrella, I'll just leave this here&#8230;there's a few archipelagos in there  . I mean since current two are Atlantic destinations, only seems fair we should give the Pacific a fair representation!









10 Most Beautiful Islands in the South Pacific | PlanetWare







www.planetware.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> So, in the event you might like to try some new dial colors/bezel/indices under the "Tropics" umbrella, I'll just leave this here&#8230;there's a few archipelagos in there  . I mean since current two are Atlantic destinations, only seems fair we should give the Pacific a fair representation!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean like this?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> View attachment 16010941


Not exactly, that's just a different colored Antilles. I meant like with new dial and bezel designs, maybe even, gulp, Arabic numerals, or a UTC or 24 hr bezel for us Vets, along with new names. That way if I want to buy more NTH Tropics, they're not named Azores or Antilles, of which I already own one of each.

Lol, just kidding you with that last post about new watches, I can tell from this thread your plate stays pretty full. We were discussing 2k1 names, so just thought I'd stir that old pot  .


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a completely unrelated note, interesting day yesterday... 

Some of you may recall me mentioning my mentor and friend from my Army days, Sgt Brian Mack. He was killed in Iraq, 16 years ago, when his armored vehicle came into contact with an IED.

I'd long since lost touch with him before that, and only heard of his death when I went searching for him online, only to find his obituary instead. It's been on my mind to produce something as a tribute to him for a while, and I've been trying to track down either his wife or daughter, or anyone from his family, for over a year.

I searched Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter. I must have sent three dozen messages to various people who shared a name with his wife or daughter. Finally, I got smart, and started searching their names in combination with their ages, and their likely locations. 

Eventually, I found an online database of public records, and $20 later, I had some pretty detailed info - supposedly current and past email addresses, mobile numbers, and physical addresses, as well as known relatives. 

I sent emails and texts to the more current addresses and numbers, but still, nada.

Luckily, the info on his wife included a link to his daughter, who I was able to reach, finally, late yesterday afternoon. We talked for about 40 minutes, then traded full contact info, so we can keep in touch.

Now I gotta get to work on that tribute model. Stay tuned...


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

docvail said:


> Have you been on the NTH site recently? It just went through a major update.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Yes. The new site definitely seems up to date.

The low res image is of a diver facing a sting Ray. It shows up when you go to explore > I stick > view the collection. It looks good on the phone but on a computer monitor, the 800x400 pixels is evident. Then there's that well dressed old man with a cigar when you get to the "all watches" page. He looks cool but I can't correlate him with dive watches.

That's a minor issue. The naming however is the source of problem for someone like me who has little to no idea of NTH. I see Tropics as a major product or category and within that 2 products. Antilles is one product line with Cointreau and Dark Rum as 2 sub products and Azores as a separate product with Absinth and Curacao sub products. Technically these are dial variations so reducing the emphasis on the names of the colors gives more prominence to the Antilles and Azores line. It would look like Tropics Antilles and Tropics Azores.

Apologies on the long worded pedantry on how to put a spotlight on your already existing solid products.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> On a completely unrelated note, interesting day yesterday...
> 
> Some of you may recall me mentioning my mentor and friend from my Army days, Sgt Brian Mack. He was killed in Iraq, 16 years ago, when his armored vehicle came into contact with an IED.
> 
> ...


That is awesome! Good on you!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Not exactly, that's just a different colored Antilles. I meant like with new dial and bezel designs, maybe even, gulp, Arabic numerals, or a UTC or 24 hr bezel for us Vets, along with new names. That way if I want to buy more NTH Tropics, they're not named Azores or Antilles, of which I already own one of each.
> 
> Lol, just kidding you with that last post about new watches, I can tell from this thread your plate stays pretty full. We were discussing 2k1 names, so just thought I'd stir that old pot  .


Ah.

Uhm....yeah, it's already challenging enough, dealing with the two different bezels for the existing two dial designs. Changing the bezel, and the dial, to come up with a completely different design, isn't going to happen. We might as well just start with a completely fresh slate, if that's where this was headed.

I don't think people realize just how successful the NTH Subs have been, and it seems like the variety that success allowed us to create gets taken for granted, as if it's "normal". It isn't. Far from it.

Most micros (NTH included), will produce 300-500 of a case for a new model design. Dial MOQ's are 50 per version. If the brand is like most (read: not like NTH), they'll use all 50 of those dials in assembly. That means they'll make 50 with date, 50 no-date, 100 total, then do that for 3-5 colorways.

These are the models (& number of variants - including colors and date options) we've produced - Riccardo (2), Acionna (3), Spectre (2), Cerberus (3), Orthos (2), Phantom (12), Orthos II (at least 12, but could be more that I'm forgetting), NTH Subs (15 in the first release)...you can see that making more than 2 or 3 versions wasn't the norm, until we got into 2015, the year we started planning NTH.

It's really rare to see any micro come out with more than 3-4 versions of the same basic model, in the same release. It was basically unheard of before we started doing it, with the Lew & Huey Phantom. That was unheard of variety for a new release, from a microbrand, at the time. Even now, it's still rare to see small (and even large) brands coming out with a dozen or more SKUs, all at once, in a single release.

To be able to produce something like the NTH Subs, with over 40 different versions - do the math. We've produced and sold a lot of them.

For the Tropics - and this isn't false modesty - I only ordered 350 cases / bracelets to be made, and we only assembled half that for this most recent release, with a plan to assemble the other half for the next release, later this year.

That's 100 of each of the 2 Azores colorways (50 date / 50 no-date), 50 for the Cointreau (all no-date), and would have been 100 of the Dark Rum (50/50), but instead of making another 50 of those, on top of the first 50, I've decided to replace that colorway with two new colors - 25 each, all no-date.

For each release of the Tropics this year, there are only 7 SKUs, just 25 pieces each.

That's it. The wheels are already in motion. The rest of those watches have already been ordered. I won't even be thinking about another Tropics design for at least 6 months, if not later, and maybe not ever.

It's a similar story with the DevilRays this year - 350 total, two releases, 200 and 150 pieces, all the colorways and assembly numbers already set in stone. 6 "standard" SKUs per release, plus the 2 exclusive versions for Watch Gecko.

For the 2K1's, not that I'm looking to make more and add new versions any time soon (I'm not), but if I was, I'd like to at least keep the existing bezel markings as they are, because it's all the same tooling. All we need is to plate them different colors, and add lume or paint to the markings.

All this talk about alternative versions of the 2K1's, or alternative versions for any other model that isn't a 40mm Sub - that talk is going nowhere.

I can't just whip up one more variant, and assemble 50 of them. I have to order at least 300 cases, to make those 50 dials someone wants to see, unless we already have the parts sitting around, and all we're doing is whipping up a new dial / handset / bezel.

The NTH Subs are the exception. We've made so many, and continue to sell them in enough volume that I can order at least 600 cases at a time. And there have been times when I ordered 900 or 1200.

When we produce a model with that sort of volume, yeah, I can experiment a little, and get funky here and there, by making 100 Tikunas, or 50 Dolphin Magentas, to mix in with the 200 of the Barracuda Vintage Black or Nacken Modern Blue.

But otherwise, no, not only can we not entertain the idea of producing any, much less all of these one-off ideas for new versions of existing models, I always regret saying anything which might be taken as an invitation for others to start lobbing ideas over my fence.

Back to the 2K1's - the original question that started all this, if I remember correctly, was whether or not we're planning to make any more, with any different designs, which might be scaled-up versions of the 40mm Subs. I beg everyone to please forget that I said anything about the 2K1's not being as popular as the smaller Subs. I regret that offhand remark, inasmuch as I see how it was misconstrued as an invitation to speculate why, then brainstorm. It was neither.

The answer to the question is no, we don't have any near-term plans to make more 2K1's, at all, including upsized versions of the 40mm Subs. I'll take all such suggestions (and all the others) under advisement, for future consideration, if I don't get hit by a bus in the meantime.

Thank you.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> We might make more / different 2K1's at some point in the future, but we don't have any immediate plans, so there is no timeline, at least not yet.
> 
> Honestly, I'm glad I was semi-conservative in my approach to making a larger version of the NTH Subs. Despite on all the guys who commented "I just wish they were larger", it seems like the 40mm size is still more popular.


I'm still as torn on what i personally like better the blue swift or the v2 cuda. 40mm is a great size but i think id love the size of the swift.

The only way i can make the decision is logically so im still gonna shoot for the v2 cuda on thursday which will likely still be in stock and alegedly more bonus opportunities are coming so maybe i can get that swift later. The logic being i like both and the cuda is much more limited. Funds and limited release schedules dont usually line up for me this well.

On the v2 cudaI like the red and goldish accents(those really catch the light well), the 40mm size is great. I prefer the C3 lume but its not as big a deal since now im not working overnights. A week ago that was a much bigger plus. I wont know how much i like the gilt dial till i see it as i havnt seen one up close in person yet. I think i prefer the cleaner bezel without the seconds marked out

On the swift, the color, the three numbered indicies and the whole design with the hand set is just wow. The watch looks "flat" but theres a ton of depth and its just a stunner in that way which i really like. the bezel being slightly reflective contrasts well with the dial and i like the way the bezel protrudes. I think the size would be great, i was wearing a 45.5mm and 16.1mm thick boldr odyssey recently and it was fine to me. The swift really seems like a great size for having a larger watch thats not huge and i considered that a huge plus.

It makes it harder that they share the case and bracelet design, cause if they didnt i think that design and finish would make me prefer the swift. Those details and finish are just great, the deeper end links are a gorgeous. the polished bevel around the case and the brushing looks so good. The two watches sharing this has made the decision much much harder.

Cant wait to order a watch on thursday.

all the rambling was supposed to be about how i really like the size of the swift and it was a big factor in why i was planning to buy one, but it turned into another rabling post in the style ive been posting lately.....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> Yes. The new site definitely seems up to date.
> 
> The low res image is of a diver facing a sting Ray. It shows up when you go to explore > I stick > view the collection. It looks good on the phone but on a computer monitor, the 800x400 pixels is evident. Then there's that well dressed old man with a cigar when you get to the "all watches" page. He looks cool but I can't correlate him with dive watches.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

My marketing team handled the re-do of the website, and the image selections. The new site was a fairly massive undertaking, as the navigation was completely changed, and we have a lot of duplication in how products are found and presented.

As various issues with the site have come up, I've asked them to make updates/changes. I'll add a review of all the imagery on the main pages to the list.

As for the naming conventions - I don't know if the way I do it makes sense to anyone but me. The way I think about product naming, the "Dodge Challenger Hellcat, in Red, with the optional passenger seat" is: Dodge (brand) > Challenger (model range) > Hellcat (specific variant of that model range) > in Red (color) > optional passenger seat (add-on / upgrade or trim package).

That's more or less how I approach the naming of watches - Brand (NTH) > model range (Tropics) > specific variant (Azores or Antilles) > colorway (Green, Blue, whatever) > date / no-date (trim package - though the analogy probably works better with the oyster v. BOR bracelet option on the Subs).

To me, that makes more sense than anything Rolex or Seiko does, by calling a watch the "Submariner", or worse, letting the market nickname a watch "Spork", then throwing a difficult to remember, and impossible to speak bit of alphanumeric gobbledygook at us - "ref 62438" or "SBDQ095".

"Samurai" is a name. Too bad Seiko didn't think of it.

I think there's value in giving products names that are pronounceable, understandable, and memorable.


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

docvail said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> View attachment 16010941


Nice color choice!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Lol, thanks for that. Guess I’ll just cross my fingers and hope for something besides blue or green or tan or brown dials in the next Tropics release! No more blue watches for me…

I do kind of wish a few polar Devilrays were going to WatchGauge. I checked WatchGecko site and don’t care for his business practice related to shipping (same cost for all regardless of VAT or import duty). In no way would those costs be as high for me as other countries, yet he’ll collect same amount for all orders. Just don’t think I should be subsidizing exorbitant taxes in other countries.

And no more design recommendations from me!


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Regarding naming conventions, I much prefer the naming scheme of the NTH Subs.

It is easy to group a line of watches by name. For example, all Nackens have snowflake hands and square indices.
It is easy to identify a color variation within that line. Think of Nacken Vintage Black vs. Nacken Modern Blue. You can immediately picture the watch based on the name. What color is the Seiko 62MAS SPB147 again?
All names are coherent: all named after submarine classes. Having said that, some names are stronger than others. I like Nacken, Barracuda, Scorpene, Tikuna, and Vanguard.
I'll take this naming scheme to anything that Seiko has, or what some other brands do: [Brand] [Model] v1, v2, v3...



docvail said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> My marketing team handled the re-do of the website, and the image selections. The new site was a fairly massive undertaking, as the navigation was completely changed, and we have a lot of duplication in how products are found and presented.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Lol, thanks for that. Guess I'll just cross my fingers and hope for something besides blue or green or tan or brown dials in the next Tropics release! No more blue watches for me&#8230;
> 
> I do kind of wish a few polar Devilrays were going to WatchGauge. I checked WatchGecko site and don't care for his business practice related to shipping (same cost for all regardless of VAT or import duty). In no way would those costs be as high for me as other countries, yet he'll collect same amount for all orders. Just don't think I should be subsidizing exorbitant taxes in other countries.
> 
> And no more design recommendations from me!


I've discussed their VAT-inclusive pricing with Watch Gecko. They're not trying to capture sales from the US. Nor should they. We already have 3 websites in the US for anyone looking to buy an NTH - mine, Watch Gauge, and now Island Watches.

Watch Gecko is primarily focused on customers within the UK, but have taken the steps necessary to be able to collect and remit import taxes for those outside the UK.

I don't really know how it works for people in other places, but for someone in the EU, I think the net result would be no substantial difference between what that person would pay if they were buying the watch from Watch Gecko, or buying it from a retailer in the EU, where the VAT rates are roughly the same. At least, there would seem to be no real difference before we consider currency fluctuations and shipping costs.

All that said - I agree it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone in the US to buy a watch from Watch Gecko if they could get that watch from another retailer, without the VAT or any other local taxes being included. But again, selling NTH's to customers in the US isn't their aim, and isn't why we're working with them.

It would only seem to be a "problem" if the watch in question isn't available anywhere else, such as the new DR colorways being produced for their exclusive sale, or a situation which arises frequently enough, when the only remaining pieces of a model are located somewhere outside the US.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I've discussed their VAT-inclusive pricing with Watch Gecko. They're not trying to capture sales from the US. Nor should they. We already have 3 websites in the US for anyone looking to buy an NTH - mine, Watch Gauge, and now Island Watches.
> 
> Watch Gecko is primarily focused on customers within the UK, but have taken the steps necessary to be able to collect and remit import taxes for those outside the UK.
> 
> ...


For the record, I'd just like to say you HAVE to be the most customer engaged business owner I've ever come across in my 63 years of being a customer&#8230;granted the first 20 or so years don't really count, But even the last 10-15 when all business owners have had the same immediate tools that you do&#8230;you are, by far, the most engaged. If I could have gotten this kind of interaction from others, I might still be buying their products (watches or otherwise).


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

The V2 VB 'Cuda lands tomorrow... 👍


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

davek35 said:


> The V2 VB 'Cuda lands tomorrow...


Looking forward to seeing real world pics and impressions!!

Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Incredibly true ?
> 
> One that still surprises me (and supports your statement) is Oris. They have spent significant $$ advertising for years. It is not uncommon to see them on TV at sporting events, online, even bill boards in some metro markets. Last time I was in Qingdao they had a serious presence on signs there as well as I walked around the city.
> 
> ...


I have a local friend, who LOVES Oris, and likes watches, though you'd never find him online discussing them. How he came to know of the brand remains a mystery, though my strong suspicion is that he encountered them in an AD, and the rest is history.

I've posted this before, in other threads. It's a page from the 2014 edition of Digital Luxury Group's annual report on industry trends online. In a nutshell, they gather and consolidate data regarding social media and internet search traffic, then reformat and repackage it, to sell it for big bucks to the big brands.

I think a big part of their pitch is that social media mentions, online engagement, and internet search are good proxies for market demand. If you look at some of their other infographics, I think they're certainly not bad proxies, even if they're not perfect, not even in the aggregate.

What struck me when I saw this was the huge gap between Rolex and the rest of the field, particularly the relatively paltry search traffic for some highly esteemed brands, and how some much "lesser" brands are right there with them. Surely Patek and IWC would warrant some distance between themselves and the likes of Longines or Rado, but alas, there really is none.

Once you get past the top 15 brands, into the "all others" column, all the others combined still don't garner quite as much search traffic as Rolex does. That's pretty amazing to think about.

(And speaking of Oris - look where they ain't...)










I think about this stuff when I hear or see what other brands appear to have in mind as their growth strategy, or when people online talk about the relative market awareness of various micros.

I think about it when a brand owner tells me he doesn't participate in the forums, or when someone suggests I shouldn't be spending my time here, or when I see microbrands spending money on digital ads. I think about it when people or brands talk about the need for micros to look beyond the enthusiast market.

First off, I'd like to ask other brand owners, and people who think they know about this stuff, "How did Rolex get to this point, where the market awareness for their brand absolutely dwarfs the rest of the field, and even their closet competitor barely has half the same level of recognition, despite aggressive product placement efforts, wide distribution, and arguably equal 'heritage'?"

I'm sure there's more than one simple reason, but surely a big head-start in massive advertising spend has something to do with it. Omega and Tag can't touch Rolex's decades-long history of pro sports sponsorships and "flood-the-zone" marketing in print, on billboards, etc.

If someone were able to accurately re-create a graph like this, but instead of the big luxury brands, they were comparing the relative market awareness of, and thus the assumed demand for various micros, I wonder, 1) what data would they use to create the graph, 2) where would they get that data, and 3) what would the graph look like?

For Rolex, their massive ad spend makes sense, when you consider their retail pricing. The ROI on their ad spend can clearly be seen in the graph above. If a digital ad converts to one $10k sale, and it costs them $100, or even $200, that ROI is huge. On a $500 microbrand watch, it's non-existent.

For micros, I'd argue it doesn't make sense, with my last dying breath. As evidence, I'd point to the above. If the likes of Patek, AP, and Hublot can't break above 5% share of market awareness, despite all the millions they invest in promotion, and Omega can't get much above 10%, even with the James Bond connection, how can a micro ever hope to make even a ripple in that vast ocean, by spending a few hundred, or even a few thousand dollars per month on digital ads?

Let's not mince words - JLC, IWC, AP, Hublot, Panerai - all these brands barely register as a blip on the radar screen of the average consumer. By definition, they are *enthusiast* brands. They're really only known to watch enthusiasts. Beyond the enthusiast market, Panerai might as well be selling pizza.

Think about that. Think about the wisdom (or lack of it), in someone advising a startup microbrand to look beyond the enthusiast market.

I believe that the real proxy for awareness / demand for micros isn't internet search, as it supposedly is for the big luxury brands. I'd put more weight on social media mentions, including, if not especially forum discussion. That completely upends the conventional wisdom so many seem to believe, if not hold sacred.

If you ignore all the noise, and just focus on the signal strength, sound quality, and volume, I would bet that the graph would look similar to the one above, but with a handful, maybe as many as half a dozen micros enjoying a disproportionate share of total market awareness, and all the others far behind.

It isn't all about specs for the price. I would bet all my money that the best-known, most highly-sought after micros aren't 1:1 correlated with those that the market sees as offering the best value for money, just like Rolex isn't remotely close to being the value leader on the graph above.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> For the record, I'd just like to say you HAVE to be the most customer engaged business owner I've ever come across in my 63 years of being a customer&#8230;granted the first 20 or so years don't really count, But even the last 10-15 when all business owners have had the same immediate tools that you do&#8230;you are, by far, the most engaged. If I could have gotten this kind of interaction from others, I might still be buying their products (watches or otherwise).


I eat a lot of carbs.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So we’ve heard…


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I have a local friend, who LOVES Oris, and likes watches, though you'd never find him online discussing them. How he came to know of the brand remains a mystery, though my strong suspicion is that he encountered them in an AD, and the rest is history.
> 
> I've posted this before, in other threads. It's a page from the 2014 edition of Digital Luxury Group's annual report on industry trends online. In a nutshell, they gather and consolidate data regarding social media and internet search traffic, then reformat and repackage it, to sell it for big bucks to the big brands.
> 
> ...


Great points. I know the impact varies, and to millennial or younger it is Omega...but in my time in Asia I noticed a trend across at least 20 factory/business owners. They loved James Bond, and it is why they wore a Rolex. No mixed words, I had more than one tell me "James Bond wore a Rolex [insert statement about genuinely excited ownership]". It is also the reason they bought every new Submariner model that hit the market.

All the marketing spend in the world tomorrow cannot buy that!


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Great points. I know the impact varies, and to millennial or younger it is Omega...but in my time in Asia I noticed a trend across at least 20 factory/business owners. They loved James Bond, and it is why they wore a Rolex. No mixed words, I had more than one tell me "James Bond wore a Rolex [insert statement about genuinely excited ownership]". It is also the reason they bought every new Submariner model that hit the market.
> 
> All the marketing spend in the world tomorrow cannot buy that!


And 007 is currently wearing Omega(which is probably why I'd buy one over something else in the same price range)

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fun fact - my local friend who's into Oris owns a pizza shop. And when I said Panerai might as well be selling pizza, it's because I also have another local friend, who's into Panerai, and he also owns a pizza shop. The one local guy I know who wears a JLC owns a hair salon (and he mispronounced Jaeger Le Coultre).

I'm not saying these brands need to start targeting their marketing at pizza shop and hair salon owners. It just occurs to me that even though I rarely leave the house, I do get out, and people who know me know I make watches. If they were into watches, I wouldn't just know that, I'd know what brands they were into, because people I meet naturally assume I give a crap.

I can count on one hand the number of people I've met in the real-world who say they're into watches. Very few if any go online to argue about them. They're not really "WIS". Most don't have a single brand they're really into. If they do claim to have a favorite brand, it's rare that it isn't Rolex, or maybe Tudor or Omega, or Tag.

Think about that sort of population density, as it relates to the real market demand for these brands. One guy, among every non-WIS I've met since I started my business almost nine years go, is into Oris. One guy into Panerai. One into JLC. I've randomly met maybe 2 real WIS in the wild, ever, in all my travels.

As the Bond family motto goes, "Orbis non Sufficit". Indeed, the world is not enough.

Look beyond the enthusiast market, my arse.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

captainmorbid said:


> And 007 is currently wearing Omega(which is probably why I'd buy one over something else in the same price range)
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


And one would think someone with 007s mission line, he'd be wearing a functional tactical watch!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> For the record, I'd just like to say you HAVE to be the most customer engaged business owner I've ever come across in my 63 years of being a customer&#8230;granted the first 20 or so years don't really count, But even the last 10-15 when all business owners have had the same immediate tools that you do&#8230;you are, by far, the most engaged. If I could have gotten this kind of interaction from others, I might still be buying their products (watches or otherwise).


You should meet him in real life. With beer (or cider) involved.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Great points. I know the impact varies, and to millennial or younger it is Omega...but in my time in Asia I noticed a trend across at least 20 factory/business owners. They loved James Bond, and it is why they wore a Rolex. No mixed words, I had more than one tell me "James Bond wore a Rolex [insert statement about genuinely excited ownership]". It is also the reason they bought every new Submariner model that hit the market.
> 
> All the marketing spend in the world tomorrow cannot buy that!


Oh, absolutely. The Chinese especially are extremely brand-conscious.

This is from the same year's report, 2014. The pink circles denominate the portion of online search which originated from each location in the previous 12 months. The red / green arrows show the year-over-year increase or decline.










Look at China. Their search traffic for luxury brands eclipsed the USA's for the first time in 2013. But, that was before their economy slowed down.

I was watching Swiss export flows by country that year (2014), and the following 2 years. Predictably, Swiss exports were flowing that way, and just as predictably, the Swiss luxury brands took it on the chin when China's economy hit the skids. They practically abandoned the western markets, going all-in on China.

I mean...China's portion of online search increased by almost 60%, year over year. Who in their right mind would think that sort of growth would be sustainable? I think it's mathematically impossible. Sure, increase your efforts there, but don't abandon the rest of the planet.

I think looking at data like this is useful when small brands consider their growth strategy. Sure, if you can find a way to break into the Chinese market, the upside potential is huge. Good luck with that. But meanwhile, big brands have been under-serving more mature markets for a while.

There's potential opportunity in a non-luxury play within those more mature and perhaps slower-growing markets. Those markets themselves may not be poised for explosive growth, but a small brand could still experience explosive growth within them.

And even if not, there's a lot to be said for growth that is at least steady, inasmuch as it beats not growing, and steady growth seems less likely to drive short-term decision making (like putting all your Swiss eggs in a Chinese basket).


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Well thats the give-away, a tactical watch implies possibly military. A rolex was also an issued watch for military. The Omega on the other hand flies under the radar, so to speak.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Oh, absolutely. The Chinese especially are extremely brand-conscious.
> 
> This is from the same year's report, 2014. The pink circles denominate the portion of online search which originated from each location in the previous 12 months. The red / green arrows show the year-over-year increase or decline.
> 
> ...


Explosive growth focused new companies tend to be (from my experience) entrepreneurs that live off the build, grow, sell company....rinse....repeat......or they are uneducated owners on a train ride to an unfinished tunnel

If the goal is sustainable income from the business, manageable steady growth is perfect.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Fun fact - my local friend who's into Oris owns a pizza shop. And when I said Panerai might as well be selling pizza, it's because I also have another local friend, who's into Panerai, and he also owns a pizza shop. The one local guy I know who wears a JLC owns a hair salon (and he mispronounced Jaeger Le Coultre).
> 
> I'm not saying these brands need to start targeting their marketing at pizza shop and hair salon owners. It just occurs to me that even though I rarely leave the house, I do get out, and people who know me know I make watches. If they were into watches, I wouldn't just know that, I'd know what brands they were into, because people I meet naturally assume I give a crap.
> 
> ...


2 things:

1 of the brands (outside of NTH) I really like is Oris

I also like pizza. A lot. I mean, if sesame street had a pizza monster, that would be my avatar

You choose your friends wisely ?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Explosive growth focused new companies tend to be (from my experience) entrepreneurs that live off the build, grow, sell company....rinse....repeat......or they are uneducated owners on a train ride to an unfinished tunnel
> 
> If the goal is sustainable income from the business, manageable steady growth is perfect.


There have been a small handful of times I was able to get my wife to sit still long enough for me to give her the broad-strokes description of the sales volume Daniel Wellington or MVMT was or is doing, as two examples of fairly young companies run by fairly young people who seemed to be fairly raking it in.

If she wasn't already pissed that I made her sit still long enough to tell her about them, she was REALLY pissed when she realized how much money my business isn't making. She's asked why I don't make crap quality watches and sell them by the hundreds of thousands, making millions in the process.

I honestly wouldn't know how. I've thought about it. I think the difference is I own a watch company, and I'm not terrible at promoting it. They're really promotion companies, which happen to be promoting a watch, but the product could literally have been anything, and it wouldn't have mattered.

It's not really as if explosive growth is available as a menu option for me. My choices are steady growth or no growth.



Mediocre said:


> 2 things:
> 
> 1 of the brands (outside of NTH) I really like is Oris
> 
> ...


I know you like Oris.

I like Oris, too. I'd like them better if they still made the Artix, and if they were priced more like Chris Ward, less like Doxa.

Yep. All the talk about pizza led me to get in the car to go get some pizza (from the guy who likes Panerai, because his place sells it by the slice, with lots of exotic varieties, whereas Oris guy basically offers plain slices, and pepperoni).

My wife's been on a business trip since Sunday morning, and won't be home until later tonight. I made dinner one night out of the last three, and by "made dinner", you know I mean I microwaved some leftovers.

Speaking of driving my car, and my wife...

She got me a gift certificate to have my car detailed for Father's Day. Today was the first open time slot, so they had my car all day. I just got it back a few hours ago.

It looks and smells brand new, but whatever they used on the interior has some serious fumes. My eyes are still burning a little. No wonder the guys who work there are barely intelligible. They're not speaking with an accent, they're slurring their words.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> There have been a small handful of times I was able to get my wife to sit still long enough for me to give her the broad-strokes description of the sales volume Daniel Wellington or MVMT was or is doing, as two examples of fairly young companies run by fairly young people who seemed to be fairly raking it in.
> 
> If she wasn't already pissed that I made her sit still long enough to tell her about them, she was REALLY pissed when she realized how much money my business isn't making. She's asked why I don't make crap quality watches and sell them by the hundreds of thousands, making millions in the process.
> 
> ...


I felt inspired after the earlier pizza posts....called my local go-to pizza place....

And learned they shut down for a week to go on vacation.

Luckily my wife let my oldest choose dinner, so we had spaghetti!

Crisis averted


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> And one would think someone with 007s mission line, he'd be wearing a functional tactical watch!


G-shock?

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

captainmorbid said:


> G-shock?
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


NTH of course!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Woot, Woot!

“Your package from John Keil is scheduled for delivery tomorrow.”


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

captainmorbid said:


> G-shock?
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Only if it's tough solar and multi band 6&#8230;obviously! And certainly couldn't be in one of their more interesting colorways&#8230;


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Antilles Dark Rum just ordered from WatchGauge


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

All this talk of pizza is making me wish it was Saturday (that's traditionally pizza day on the boats I work on, waffles for coffee break, pizza for lunch and steak for dinner)


I've also got the WatchGecko site open at the new Barracuda, "I don't have a watch with snowflake hands yet" is my current justification for getting one, but that is only because my Atticus hasn't arrived yet.


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> View attachment 16010941


Ooh, I like that. Do you plan to release an Azores in that colour?

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

gavindavie said:


> I've also got the WatchGecko site open at the new Barracuda, "I don't have a watch with snowflake hands yet" is my current justification for getting one&#8230;"


lol, that's why my Thresher arrives today&#8230;"I don't have a watch with a black dial yet!"


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> lol, that's why my Thresher arrives today&#8230;"I don't have a watch with a black dial yet!"


You say black dial?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> You say black dial?
> View attachment 16011983


Best thing about that what is&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.NUMBERS!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Baldrick said:


> Ooh, I like that. Do you plan to release an Azores in that colour?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Sorry mate, just the Antilles.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a separate topic - you guys see what's going on with Atticus?


__
http://instagr.am/p/CRkxLtkL1iP/


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> On a separate topic - you guys see what's going on with Atticus?
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CRkxLtkL1iP/


So Cliff notes version for those of us who won't touch social media with a 10 ft pole?

Never mind, got this to come up in a different browser. Must admit, I wasn't expecting a "we received our shipment and everything is good" post&#8230;so good?


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Cointreau in the morning&#8230;










Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> So Cliff notes version for those of us who won't touch social media with a 10 ft pole?
> 
> Never mind, got this to come up in a different browser. Must admit, I wasn't expecting a "we received our shipment and everything is good" post&#8230;so good?


Still waiting on two more deliveries over the next couple weeks.

So far, "everything is good." 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> So Cliff notes version for those of us who won't touch social media with a 10 ft pole?
> 
> Never mind, got this to come up in a different browser. Must admit, I wasn't expecting a "we received our shipment and everything is good" post&#8230;so good?


First shipment of watches received. QC going so far, so good. Shipping to pre-order customers to begin soon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Saswatch said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. The new site definitely seems up to date.
> ...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16013053


That dudes response is golden.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Looks good from here!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Original song and lyrics by the Jaggerz, circa 1970

Hey folks, I bet ya
There's something out to get you
You'll find it anywhere
On a bus, in a bar, in a grocery store
It screams "Excuse me, haven't you seen me somewhere before?"

Thresh, thresh, thresh, they call it the Thresher
Thresh, thresh, thresh, you know your all after

Yep, FedEx finally showed, still sucked getting (forcing) pins through Viton 22mm band, but all done. Couple quick pics. Nothing special, but first black dial and first no date (ever) for me. Fits just like Swiftsure on strap, which I fully expected.

Bad time of day for me to get outside pics, I'll get some in the morning,


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

V1 and V2


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Original song and lyrics by the Jaggerz, circa 1970
> 
> Hey folks, I bet ya
> There's something out to get you
> ...


It may not be everyone's cuppa, but I like how the Thresher design turned out.

Glad it arrived safely, and that you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> V1 and V2
> View attachment 16013175


Interesting. I hadn't expected anyone to own both the v.1 and v.2 version of the same model.

Thoughts on how they compare? Think you'll keep both? If not, which one is likely to get flipped?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


That I will definitely do!


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16013053


Organic rankings?? What about your inorganic rankings... I'm smelling a discrimination case coming on...

Seriously, what's with the sudden addition of organic to describe a naturally offering event.... more corporate speak

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> Interesting. I hadn't expected anyone to own both the v.1 and v.2 version of the same model.
> 
> Thoughts on how they compare? Think you'll keep both? If not, which one is likely to get flipped?


Of course, someone, likely more than just me, will own both!

V2 wears and feels a little smaller. Case sides look great! Slim. Crown guards are beautiful. The crown itself is not as wide (the grip sides), but I understand it had to be to fit the guards size... it all works nicely.

V1 & 2 are different enough I'll probably keep both. I'll move the Näcken black vintage into the quick grab and go diver role and sell 3 watches I don't appreciate near as much. Life's to short....

Thanks for making such beautiful watches. And as for John Keil, what great service! Thanks John, if you read this thread.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

^ I love posts like this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

What is the point of the bezel in the Antilles being numbered 1-12? In use, do you just treat the 12 as a pip?

Also the devil ray is growing on me and I’m trying to ignore it….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> What is the point of the bezel in the Antilles being numbered 1-12?


A second time zone.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

josiahg52 said:


> A second time zone.


Ah, thanks. For some reason I was thinking it was a gmt thing and duh that's marked to 24

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

And no date v2 barracuda on the oyster ordered!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Thresher, thresher, thresh, they call it the THRESHER!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Ah, thanks. For some reason I was thinking it was a gmt thing and duh that's marked to 24
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"Poor man's GMT".

Use the 1-12 to track a second time zone, or time things that last a really long time, like my wife being angry at me.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> "Poor man's GMT".
> 
> Use the 1-12 to track a second time zone, or time things that last a really long time, like my wife being angry at me.


Ha! That dark rum color looks really good though along with that texture

I was reading about gilt dials and it's an enamel coating that's relief cut? I had a ginault ocean rover and while not relief cut the dial was enamel and it was the best dial I've had so far. Very simple but it had real depth just from that. It looked way better than in person or photos showed even though it was photos that made me wanna try it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> The crown itself is not as wide (the grip sides), but I understand it had to be to fit the guards size...


Interesting.

The crown is the same as the v.1's, or at least, it should be. We tried to keep as many parts as possible interchangeable, including the crown.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> It may not be everyone's cuppa, but I like how the Thresher design turned out.
> 
> Glad it arrived safely, and that you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


i thought the thresher was good, but the swift just better.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Ha! That dark rum color looks really good though along with that texture
> 
> I was reading about gilt dials and it's an enamel coating that's relief cut? I had a ginault ocean rover and while not relief cut the dial was enamel and it was the best dial I've had so far. Very simple but it had real depth just from that. It looked way better than in person or photos showed even though it was photos that made me wanna try it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ours aren't enamel. I'm not sure if gilt relief could be done that way.

The way ours are made:

1. Electroplate the brass dial plate gold.

2. Mask off the parts you want to show through the top layer.

3. Electroplate again, on top. In our case, the top layer is black, but it could be white, or gold, or silver.

4. Peel back the masking to reveal the gold plating underneath.

It's a painstaking process, with a higher incidence of reject dials, which is why the brands which used to commonly make dials this way have abandoned it. It's easier to just print a base color on top of brass plate, then print "gold" lines on top of that base color.

About enamel...

Before I linked up with watchmaker Dan, I was working with a watchmaker Lee (Lee Dowell, owner of Schmutz Watches, who was living here in PA, but has since moved out of state), who was learning to work with enamel.

As a favor (and practice), he made me a set of enamel snowflake hands, for a one-off mod I was planning, using a prototype Santa Fe dial and v.1 Oberon bezel insert, the "Santa Flake", which I first lent, then eventually gave to the BSHT guys.

Pics:

















Enamel dials (or hands) need to be "baked" at high temps to harden. Once hardened, I'm not sure if it's possible to simply "slice" lines in an enamel dial (by way of peeling back masked-off areas), without having big chunks break off.

I may be mis-remembering, or I may have simply misunderstood him, but my recollection is that enamel is a fairly thin liquid before it's baked. Working with it, especially if you're trying to get it to sit neatly within a confined space (like the lume patches of a handset), can be difficult.

If you look closely at the pics above, you can see that the edges where the enamel meets the frames of the handset aren't very crisp.

Whereas the electroplating creates a thin layer on top of the dial, that layer is bonded to the dial underneath, and is more flexible.

Enamel coatings are more like a brittle shell, bonded to the underlying surface, but also bonded to itself, for lack of a better description, such that any damage to that shell will likely radiate outwards.

Hence, enamel dials can crack:


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Enamel coatings are more like a brittle shell, bonded to the underlying surface, but also bonded to itself, for lack of a better description, such that any damage to that shell will likely radiate outwards.
> 
> Hence, enamel dials can crack:
> 
> View attachment 16014236


I don't even care about the cracking... that longines is sweet!!!!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Hence, enamel dials can crack:
> 
> View attachment 16014236


That's actually a pretty cool effect. Not sure if that was intentional or cracking with age/impact of a once all-white dial, but you got my vote for a cracked enamel dial v2 sub version, at some point...


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> That's actually a pretty cool effect. Not sure if that was intentional or cracking with age/impact of a once all-white dial, but you got my vote for a cracked enamel dial v2 sub version, at some point...


Not even sure if this is a thing or not but could you gilt the cracks?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Interesting.
> 
> The crown is the same as the v.1's, or at least, it should be. We tried to keep as many parts as possible interchangeable, including the crown.


I'm go out on a limb and say your manufacturer changed the crown? 
















As for enamel dials. Anyone know if the cracking effect happens on laquer enamel? If my Tourby ends up like that decades from now, I wouldnt be disappointed. It's a cool look.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> I'm go out on a limb and say your manufacturer changed the crown?
> View attachment 16014309
> View attachment 16014311
> 
> ...


Huh. Crown on my v1 Scorpene Nomad looks more like the new v2 crown, pictured on the top, than the v1 in the lower pic.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Huh. Crown on my v1 Scorpene Nomad looks more like the new v2 crown, pictured on the top, than the v1 in the lower pic.


Hmmm. Interesting. I got that v1 pic from a quick google search, as I was too lazy to see if I had a shot on my phone.

Well I dug one up, and sure enough, the crown on my Sauro looks thinner as well.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Hmmm. Interesting. I got that v1 pic from a quick google search, as I was too lazy to see if I had a shot on my phone.
> 
> Well I dug one up, and sure enough, the crown on my Sauro looks thinner as well.
> View attachment 16014334
> View attachment 16014335


Yep, that's what mine looks like, too.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ours aren't enamel. I'm not sure if gilt relief could be done that way.
> 
> The way ours are made:
> 
> ...


Okay, I had read a review and they used the word enamel but described the process as you did. I was intrigued just cause how understated that ginault dial was and how beautiful and deep it looked for something so "simple". I figured if it was enamel then I'd have a real good idea of what to expect from personal experience.

it looked as if you were looking at something was truly black not coated black is the best way I can put it. It looked good in pictures but in person it was really special.

I'm excited to see what this dial looks like in person. I think the effect will be really neat.

Thanks for the detailed post. I'd agree that I don't think enamel would work for that process. I did forget that it's brittle and I can only imagine how many dials you'd have to go through getting it right cause it does seem likely that the enamel wild crack and flake as you lifted the masked portions off

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

This is what I respect about doc:

Doc: “Enamel it hard to use and can crack.”
WIS: “DOC, MAKE US ENAMEL KINTSUGI WATCHES!”

…and yet he keeps coming back. Lol.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> On a completely unrelated note, interesting day yesterday...
> 
> Some of you may recall me mentioning my mentor and friend from my Army days, Sgt Brian Mack. He was killed in Iraq, 16 years ago, when his armored vehicle came into contact with an IED.
> 
> ...


An Azario style with this color scheme called The Sargent or The Sargent Mack maybe with Army green vico?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Ours aren't enamel. I'm not sure if gilt relief could be done that way.
> 
> The way ours are made:
> 
> ...


Same reason so many old pocket watches have dials with cracks


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HammyMan37 said:


> I don't even care about the cracking... that longines is sweet!!!!





mconlonx said:


> That's actually a pretty cool effect. Not sure if that was intentional or cracking with age/impact of a once all-white dial, but you got my vote for a cracked enamel dial v2 sub version, at some point...


Ugh.

I knew before I posted that pic some guys would like it, and start suggesting we do a deliberately cracked enamel dial.



HammyMan37 said:


> Not even sure if this is a thing or not but could you gilt the cracks?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'm go out on a limb and say your manufacturer changed the crown?
> View attachment 16014309
> View attachment 16014311
> 
> ...


The crown in the second pic isn't a stock NTH crown.

I vaguely recall that the original prototypes had crowns that were different (thicker/wider, as seen in that pic), but I'm not 100% certain. I also vaguely recall someone at some point replacing one of our stock / production crowns with an aftermarket part, that definitely did not have the same dimensions.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Ugh.
> 
> I knew before I posted that pic some guys would like it, and start suggesting we do a deliberately cracked enamel dial.


If only I had 49 friends...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Okay, I had read a review and they used the word enamel but described the process as you did. I was intrigued just cause how understated that ginault dial was and how beautiful and deep it looked for something so "simple". I figured if it was enamel then I'd have a real good idea of what to expect from personal experience.
> 
> it looked as if you were looking at something was truly black not coated black is the best way I can put it. It looked good in pictures but in person it was really special.
> 
> ...


So...I don't really want to get into specifics about something another brand is doing, especially not a brand surrounded by controversy, with rabid fans who don't mind trashing NTH.

That said...

We wouldn't necessarily need to make an enamel dial to get a surface that looked like it was "inches deep". We could print a black dial, the normal way, and just give it a glossy finish, plus a clear top-coat (or two), also with a glossy finish. The perception of depth in the dial itself would be enhanced by applied indices jutting up from the dial.

Boom - "enamel" black dial.

We did something similar with the Skipjack - printed black dial with a glossy finish, just without the applied indices. When the light hits the dial at just the right angle, you can see the illusion of depth, especially when the dial is reflecting the hands.
























We wouldn't be able to do it if we wanted to have a true relief dial, because as I just explained, the gilt-relief dials aren't printed, they're electroplated. The black top later isn't ink or paint, it's a metallic coating bonded to the underlying surface. For lack of having a better term, I'll say the gilt relief dials appear to have a satin sheen, which most people seem to like.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> If only I had 49 friends...


I'm not even sure that would be enough to get me to agree to take on a project like that.

You want a unique dial color / marker pattern? Sure, no problem. But you'd be asking me to start exploring a new dial-making technique with my vendors, something we've never done, requiring a bit more communication back and forth, and with uncertain results.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Sporting that fancy NTH rubber


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> So...I don't really want to get into specifics about something another brand is doing, especially not a brand surrounded by controversy, with rabid fans who don't mind trashing NTH.
> 
> That said...
> 
> ...


This all makes a ton of sense, you said exactly that effect I was trying to describe. It's really something and again makes sense why it's not on the v2 cuda. I'm interested to see how the relief looks in person as it goes the other way vs font on the dial. Can't wait to look closely at that. The gold tone ads a nice touch and helps make the dial interesting without having applied markers. I can't wait to see the satin finish. Only way to know what I'll think of it.

Through all the controversy the mode of watch I had was the best watch I've owned yet and i did get a discount, I would t mind owning at the current price.

The watch made me fall in love with the submariner design which before I always thought looked too bulky at best. Though I mainly hope for a grand seiko with spring drive some day should I afford a "luxury" watch. I find luxury bracketing to be a weird structure, I'd kinda think anything more than a timex or cheaper quartz to be all the watch you need and anything more than you need is a luxury. But whatever

On a side note I'd love to see a tooless quick adjust clasp available as an accessory, I understand trying to stay within a price range and so. I know the clasp it has will have plenty of micro adjust positions but it's a thing I had once before and I'm always on the look out for it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> This all makes a ton of sense, you said exactly that effect I was trying to describe. It's really something and again makes sense why it's not on the v2 cuda. I'm interested to see how the relief looks in person as it goes the other way vs font on the dial. Can't wait to look closely at that. The gold tone ads a nice touch and helps make the dial interesting without having applied markers. I can't wait to see the satin finish. Only way to know what I'll think of it.
> 
> Through all the controversy the mode of watch I had was the best watch I've owned yet and i did get a discount, I would t mind owning at the current price.
> 
> ...


We made the original Tropics and the original DevilRay with a racheting expansion clasp. It was the single biggest source of complaints with both those models.

They're too thick. They have sharp corners. They aren't as secure. And worst of all, they cost more, enough to raise the price of the watch by $50.

Never again.

If someone wants an expansion clasp, there are aftermarket ones available - 18mm 316L Stainless Steel Wetsuit Ratchet Buckle Button Control diver extension clasp, Brushed.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Only because I couldn't tell for certain just by looking at the pics, and I don't have any v.2's available for comparison, I asked Dan to compare the crowns on a v.2 and a v.1 Sub.

Dan confirms they are identical.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> We made the original Tropics and the original DevilRay with a racheting expansion clasp. It was the single biggest source of complaints with both those models.
> 
> They're too thick. They have sharp corners. They aren't as secure. And worst of all, they cost more, enough to raise the price of the watch by $50.
> 
> ...


I understand and with a good quick adjust its not a big deal. Its a thing i like to see and its probably the highest on the list of just because i like it. Its the farthest thing that really makes or breaks a watch, vs things like a regulated movement, good crystal, case and bracelet finishing, like how you did for the v2, a good dial, excellent lume.

Theres nothing on either the barracuda or swift sure that id sacrifice to see the clasp i like

im suprised that so many people dont like them.

I have pitched the idea to steinhart of having it as an additional accessory available as it wouldnt impact the price of the watch and only people that like the clasp would get it. If only saying it made it that easy to do. I havnt lost sleep over it yet


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Only because I couldn't tell for certain just by looking at the pics, and I don't have any v.2's available for comparison, I asked Dan to compare the crowns on a v.2 and a v.1 Sub.
> 
> Dan confirms they are identical.


Speaking of Dan, how's he doing? Hope he's already full recovered!


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> On a side note I'd love to see a tooless quick adjust clasp available as an accessory, I understand trying to stay within a price range and so. I know the clasp it has will have plenty of micro adjust positions but it's a thing I had once before and I'm always on the look out for it


I guess for most of us desk-divers, tool-less quick adjust clasp is not that important.



















That said, I do appreciate a glidelock type clasp like those on Christopher Ward and Rolex as a nice-to-have but not a dealbreaker at this price range (as long as the clasp looks decent enough like the one on the "v2" and up bracelet for the v1 Subs, or v2 Sub's v1 bracelet (wait what??? Confused yet?)


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

on a side note i should be getting the watch on monday and i cant wait


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Slant said:


> I guess for most of us desk-divers, tool-less quick adjust clasp is not that important.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah its something i really like but its really non essential vs any of the other features. Id pay extra to buy it as an accessary but it doesnt sound like a good business idea from doc, or steinharts, or anyone else in the price range's perspective. Is what it is and like i said theres no feature on the watch i ordered that i would trade for that kind of clasp as i too just desk dive.

doesnt hurt to ask


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Speaking of Dan, how's he doing? Hope he's already full recovered!


His recovery is ongoing. He's been dealing with a good bit of pain off-and-on. Not really from the surgery itself per se, but apparently even after the herniated disk was fixed, the nerves are still inflamed, and the meds only do so much to dull the pain.

He hasn't done QC since his surgery.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> His recovery is ongoing. He's been dealing with a good bit of pain off-and-on. Not really from the surgery itself per se, but apparently even after the herniated disk was fixed, the nerves are still inflamed, and the meds only do so much to dull the pain.
> 
> He hasn't done QC since his surgery.


 for his condition, not the QC.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was surprised by how many people complained about the expansion clasp, and how many people would rather not have them.

The challenge I have is that whenever someone asks for or suggests some additional feature, I'm not sure if they're suggesting it should be included at the same price, or if they'd be willing to see the price of the watch go up to get it.

Regardless, my thinking is that when people compare watches, they're not often looking at the ancillary, "nice to have" features, like an expansion clasp, pelican case, included "extra" strap, etc. Most guys look at the price, and then the main specs, components and features - movement, WR, bracelet, crystal.

If they're comparing a $750 NTH Sub (now $50 more because we added a fancier clasp) to some other watch, they're likely comparing it against watches at the same price, which appear to offer more, or watches with all the same features (though not necessarily the fancy clasp), but which sell for less.

I also don't believe there are enough guys out there who love those expansion clasps enough to pay $50 more for the watch, to balance out all the guys who think it's now $50 too much, and / or hate those clasps, and thus decide not to buy it.

There's nothing wrong with our clasp. It's a helluva lot nicer than what you see on a lot of watches that cost a good bit more (looking at you, Longines Hydroconquest, and your crappy clasp). It works well, isn't overly thick, doesn't have sharp corners, doesn't add too much to the price of the watch, and they rarely break.

Let's not break what isn't in need of fixing...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

$900. Down from $1300.

Look at the clasp. I was about to say it's the same one we used to use on Lew & Huey bracelets, and on the v.1 Subs bracelet, but it isn't. It's worse. Ours had a push button release. Theirs is all friction.





__





Longines HydroConquest Automatic Blue Dial 44 mm Men's Watch L3.841.4.96.6


Shop for HydroConquest Automatic Blue Dial 44 mm Men's Watch L3.841.4.96.6 by Longines at JOMASHOP for only $0.00! WARRANTY or GUARANTEE available withevery item. We are the internet's leading source for ! (Model # )




www.jomashop.com


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

2 things

1. Wishing Dan a speedy recovery from here on out!

2. I have no complaints about NTH clasps. I appreciate that they are quality yet relatively thin, like your watches. Expansion clasps are nice, but from my experience they are thicker or rubbish.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I was surprised by how many people complained about the expansion clasp, and how many people would rather not have them.
> 
> The challenge I have is that whenever someone asks for or suggests some additional feature, I'm not sure if they're suggesting it should be included at the same price, or if they'd be willing to see the price of the watch go up to get it.
> 
> ...


I swear I typed this all out once but no idea where it went. Cliff notes&#8230;Oris Aquis Caliber 400, most expensive watch I own, on strap. 1/4"+ clasp first time ever regretted not going bracelet. Never again if I can avoid it. Great clasp, very secure, micro adjustable on the wrist&#8230;thickness of clasp ruins it all. Don't wear it very often because of it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> $900. Down from $1300.
> 
> Look at the clasp. I was about to say it's the same one we used to use on Lew & Huey bracelets, and on the v.1 Subs bracelet, but it isn't. It's worse. Ours had a push button release. Theirs is all friction.
> 
> ...


Ripping a nail trying to open a friction clasp like that is such a PITA


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Id say for something like the clasp sell it separate. Doesnt increase the cost of the watch and its on the people like myself who like it to pay the difference and probably have less complaints about the clasp. But are customers like me a big enough segment to make it make sense? I'm just voicing for future optimism

If not the clasp you use looks great anyway, you say it is and i believe you, the clasp on my steinhart has been fine and i dont think its as good as yours. Your clasp allows plenty of micro adjustments and im pretty confident i wont be constantly thinking about how the clasp isnt what i exactly precisely what i want. Ive been torn over if i wanted the barracuda or the swift all week and spent almost no time thinking about the clasps, im definitely not upset or dismayed


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Id say for something like the clasp sell it separate. Doesnt increase the cost of the watch and its on the people like myself who like it to pay the difference and probably have less complaints about the clasp. But are customers like me a big enough segment to make it make sense? I'm just voicing for future optimism
> 
> If not the clasp you use looks great anyway, you say it is and i believe you, the clasp on my steinhart has been fine and i dont think its as good as yours. Your clasp allows plenty of micro adjustments and im pretty confident i wont be constantly thinking about how the clasp isnt what i exactly precisely what i want. Ive been torn over if i wanted the barracuda or the swift all week and spent almost no time thinking about the clasps, im definitely not upset or dismayed


Queue typical WUS answer:

Get both!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Queue typical WUS answer:
> 
> Get both!


i might be able to, several more bonus "opportunities" coming up this year. So ill see what happens and how that relates to meeting other financial goals

The barracuda was the logical choice so thats the way i went. I found out and liked the v1 long after it was sold out so i could pass up the opportunity.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)

Man this thing looks so good!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Id say for something like the clasp sell it separate. Doesnt increase the cost of the watch and its on the people like myself who like it to pay the difference and probably have less complaints about the clasp. But are customers like me a big enough segment to make it make sense? I'm just voicing for future optimism
> 
> If not the clasp you use looks great anyway, you say it is and i believe you, the clasp on my steinhart has been fine and i dont think its as good as yours. Your clasp allows plenty of micro adjustments and im pretty confident i wont be constantly thinking about how the clasp isnt what i exactly precisely what i want. Ive been torn over if i wanted the barracuda or the swift all week and spent almost no time thinking about the clasps, im definitely not upset or dismayed


We have them available separately. The 20mm expansion clasp from the DevilRay is available on our site.









20mm Ratcheting Expansion Clasp


This is the generation 1 ratcheting expansion clasp for the NTH DevilRay. Please note this item is not returnable.




nthwatches.com





Been there since 2018. Hardly anyone buys them. We've sold exactly four of them, ever, in the last three years.

Why would I bother ordering a ton of them in other sizes (because I'd have to order them in large numbers), when no one wants the clasps we have?

Just buy it from Strap Code.

Boom.

Problem solved. Problem staying solved.

Rangers Lead the Way.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> We have them available separately. The 20mm expansion clasp from the DevilRay is available on our site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh awesome! yeah when you said how unpopular they are it didnt sound like something really worth your time to stock. Cant blame a business owner for not wanting to waste or lose money, i mean i can......I was glad i could ask and really thankful for the response. It makes sense and im not gonna waste time sitting around wondering why you dont offer it as time goes by.

That clasp is next on my list after ordering the green rubber strap for my steinhart that i have been wanting to order for a few months. Probably move on that clasp by the end of next month, be kinda funny if i prefer the stock clasp


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Probably move on that clasp by the end of next month, be kinda funny if i prefer the stock clasp


You will&#8230;


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> You will&#8230;


with all my whining i intend to find out for sure


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> We have them available separately. The 20mm expansion clasp from the DevilRay is available on our site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm of of those purchases. For a 20mm non tapered cordura strap.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Oh awesome! yeah when you said how unpopular they are it didnt sound like something really worth your time to stock. Cant blame a business owner for not wanting to waste or lose money, i mean i can......I was glad i could ask and really thankful for the response. It makes sense and im not gonna waste time sitting around wondering why you dont offer it as time goes by.
> 
> That clasp is next on my list after ordering the green rubber strap for my steinhart that i have been wanting to order for a few months. Probably move on that clasp by the end of next month, be kinda funny if i prefer the stock clasp


Be advised - it's 20mm. The clasp on the 40mm Subs and 2K1's is 18mm.

I'm not sure what the MOQ is on clasps. I'm assuming it's at least 50 pieces. If it was 20 or less, I might consider it.

I think we started out with 20 extra on those DevilRay clasps, which we ordered when we ordered the watches. We sold 4. There are 14 left in the warehouse, so I'm guessing there are 2 floating around Dan's shop. It's not a crazy-expensive item, but still, it's a waste of money to stock anything that doesn't sell.

We don't sell a lot of clasps, of any kind. We actually sell more complete bracelets. The current-gen 18mm clasps for the Subs and 2K1's? We've sold 8. Still, that's twice as many compared to how many we've sold of the 20mm expansion clasp.

It's just not an item we'll sell enough of to make it worth us bothering with them, not when Strapcode and others have a similar-enough item available for less.

If I saw that a lot of people were buying aftermarket clasps (of any kind) to replace our stock clasps, I'd take a closer look at the clasp we were using, and figure out how to improve it. But even with all the complaints people had with our v.1 clasp, I didn't see very many who hated it enough to buy an aftermarket clasp.

Personally, I think expansion clasps are an over-hyped feature. As proof, I point to the complaints we got about the lack of micro-adjustments on the expansion clasps we included with the v.1 Tropics and v.1 DevilRays.

Follow my logic...

I got emails from guys asking about (or complaining about) the lack of micro-adjustments on those EXPANDING clasps. I tried to explain - the clasp expands. You don't need micro-adjustments. If your wrist swells up, just expand the clasp.

Nope. No good.

These guys were pissed that they couldn't get a good fit on the bracelet WITHOUT using the expansion feature of the clasp. In other words - they didn't want to wear the bracelet with the clasp expanded, as their default setting. They only wanted the ability to expand the clasp if their wrist swelled.

The v.1 DevilRay bracelet had one link that was shorter (not quite a "half" link, just shorter) on either side of the clasp. The v.1 Tropics? BOR bracelet, with short links. In either case, it shouldn't have been a problem to get a good fit without using the expansion feature on the clasp, but apparently, for these guys, it was.

I still don't understand how wearing the clasp in an expanded position wouldn't bother them if they were the ones to expand it, after their wrist swelled up, but it would bother them if they used that feature just to get the right fit.

I sometimes had to wear my v.1 DevilRay with the clasp expanded. I didn't love it, but I didn't lose my mind over it, either. As best as I can figure, these guys actually hated the expansion feature.

Meanwhile, the Subs and 2K1's have half-links, and a clasp with 6 micro-adjustments. We use the same clasp for the v.2 DevilRays, and v.2 Tropics.

Exactly zero people have complained about not being able to get the perfect fit, no matter what they do. No one's complained about the clasp being too thick (well, maybe one or two wing-nuts). No one complains about sharp corners.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Speaking of the Tropics. I'm sure it's been asked/answered before.... but I dawned on me randomly while wearing mine earlier this week. 

Why no drilled lugs? No complaint, I have more watches without than with, I'm quite proficient at strap/bracelet swaps. 

Simply curious.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Speaking of the Tropics. I'm sure it's been asked/answered before.... but I dawned on me randomly while wearing mine earlier this week.
> 
> Why no drilled lugs? No complaint, I have more watches without than with, I'm quite proficient at strap/bracelet swaps.
> 
> Simply curious.


They couldn't be drilled. I tried to get it done.

The location of the lug holes, if they were drilled through, would intersect with the transitional edge of the two outer surfaces (the brushed outer and polished chamfer, between the sides and tops of the lugs), turning what should be a round hole into a tear-drop shaped eyesore.

They can't be drilled on the DevilRay either. In addition to the challenges derived from the outer surface of the case, the lug length is too short. The drill would hit the case wall between the lugs.

If lugs can be drilled, we drill them. If the lugs ain't drilled, it's because they couldn't be.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Be advised - it's 20mm. The clasp on the 40mm Subs and 2K1's is 18mm.
> 
> I'm not sure what the MOQ is on clasps. I'm assuming it's at least 50 pieces. If it was 20 or less, I might consider it.
> 
> ...


I admit its an overhyped feature by saying there isnt a feature id trade on the cuda i just ordered for it, i just like it. Its a nice perk thats worth the $50-$100 to me and i get not wanting to add that to a watches current price cause people already have enough problems with pricing structure.

Given the size difference i think i wont worry about it. Id like it to fit and even if ordering a different bracelet was an option that becomes more of a maybe thing. I anticipate the clasp it has will be more than fine.Its something i always count as a plus but the lack of that kind of clasp is never in the list of reasons why i wouldnt buy a watch and most watches come with a perfectly good clasp, at least ones im interested in. I dont wanna buy anything i dont want after all

Between the amount of people like me that want the clasp, having to sit on inventory and that the clasp provided works well or better i cant blame you. I wouldnt want to stock it if i was in your shoes for all that.

Thats kinda wild having to try explaining how to use it, the expanding clasp i had before i set the watch to be comfortable with the clasp collapsed and used it as a feature for wrist swell, expanded felt better than tight and i didnt have to hunt a tool down to change it.

Thanks for your time and insight. It is neat to learn why what youd like or want may not really be that viable. Its a different perspective than sitting around thinking what should be offered and how.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I ain't mad at nobody, but goddam WIS as a group are pretty spoiled.

Drilled lugs. Expansion clasps. Fully articulated bracelet links. With date or no-date as available options. But no phantom date change positions. Enamel, meteorite, or gilt relief dials. Half links. Milled clasps with 6 micro-adjustments. High-beat movements, that don't just run within manufacturer's spec, but within COSC spec. Bronze. Titanium. Anti-scratch coatings. Multiple layers of AR...

Y'all just take all of these features for granted, in a watch that costs less than $1k, from microbrands being run by one dude, with few if any employees.

Meanwhile, there are watches costing twice as much that don't have even half of those features.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I ain't mad at nobody, but goddam WIS as a group are pretty spoiled.
> 
> Drilled lugs. Expansion clasps. Fully articulated bracelet links. With date or no-date as available options. But no phantom date change positions. Enamel, meteorite, or gilt relief dials. Half links. Milled clasps with 6 micro-adjustments. High-beat movements, that don't just run within manufacturer's spec, but within COSC spec. Bronze. Titanium. Anti-scratch coatings. Multiple layers of AR...
> 
> ...


I was reading further back this thread about the demand for no ghost position and i agree. I like that its a dedicated movement but i really couldnt care less about it. I like it i guess but it wouldnt be on the list of things that determines if i get one watch vs the other.

Its a hell of a watch you can get these days for well under $1k, my 39 double green ceramic ocean one premium is outstanding. It runs pretty tight, ill go to reset it after a week or two and decide not to bother as it wont even be a full minute off. Actually posted about that and how happy i was with its accuracy and someone told me it was **** accuracy and that quartz do way better. Im glad i dont have to read posts like that as often as you do lol.

Monday is gonna be a good day, the timing worked out perfect for me, ill even be off all day so i wont miss having to sign for the package.


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## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> I ain't mad at nobody, but goddam WIS as a group are pretty spoiled.
> 
> Drilled lugs. Expansion clasps. Fully articulated bracelet links. With date or no-date as available options. But no phantom date change positions. Enamel, meteorite, or gilt relief dials. Half links. Milled clasps with 6 micro-adjustments. High-beat movements, that don't just run within manufacturer's spec, but within COSC spec. Bronze. Titanium. Anti-scratch coatings. Multiple layers of AR...
> 
> ...


All those features and the case/bracelet isn't even ice hardened? Literally unwearable.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I ain't mad at nobody, but goddam WIS as a group are pretty spoiled.
> 
> Drilled lugs. Expansion clasps. Fully articulated bracelet links. With date or no-date as available options. But no phantom date change positions. Enamel, meteorite, or gilt relief dials. Half links. Milled clasps with 6 micro-adjustments. High-beat movements, that don't just run within manufacturer's spec, but within COSC spec. Bronze. Titanium. Anti-scratch coatings. Multiple layers of AR...
> 
> ...


I had to look up Gilt relief dial and...









Pretty good and pretty awful company. Id say right in the middle of those two. Its worth between .75 and $10k soooooo if you take $10k and multiply it by .75 you get $750 soooo I mean I think your price is right on!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I ain't mad at nobody, but goddam WIS as a group are pretty spoiled.
> 
> Drilled lugs. Expansion clasps. Fully articulated bracelet links. With date or no-date as available options. But no phantom date change positions. Enamel, meteorite, or gilt relief dials. Half links. Milled clasps with 6 micro-adjustments. High-beat movements, that don't just run within manufacturer's spec, but within COSC spec. Bronze. Titanium. Anti-scratch coatings. Multiple layers of AR...
> 
> ...


But can I get a chronometer?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I ain't mad at nobody, but goddam WIS as a group are pretty spoiled.
> 
> Drilled lugs. Expansion clasps. Fully articulated bracelet links. With date or no-date as available options. But no phantom date change positions. Enamel, meteorite, or gilt relief dials. Half links. Milled clasps with 6 micro-adjustments. High-beat movements, that don't just run within manufacturer's spec, but within COSC spec. Bronze. Titanium. Anti-scratch coatings. Multiple layers of AR...
> 
> ...


This is when I feel compelled to remind you the Mrs. would prefer you sell huge quantities of quartz driven fashion watches to non-WIS that have no clue what expansion clasps or drilled lugs are......and buy a second house in the Bahamas where you funnel your fortune through


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I ain't mad at nobody, but goddam WIS as a group are pretty spoiled.
> 
> Drilled lugs. Expansion clasps. Fully articulated bracelet links. With date or no-date as available options. But no phantom date change positions. Enamel, meteorite, or gilt relief dials. Half links. Milled clasps with 6 micro-adjustments. High-beat movements, that don't just run within manufacturer's spec, but within COSC spec. Bronze. Titanium. Anti-scratch coatings. Multiple layers of AR...
> 
> ...


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

New bezel insert. Juuuuust a tad crooked.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> New bezel insert. Juuuuust a tad crooked.
> View attachment 16015200


Thanks for posting this'un. Ive always been curious as to what my polar swifty would look like with a black bezel insert. Not that I can buy one anyways. But a fella can wonder.

Looks good!


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Does it look just a tiny bit narrower? It might be me... long days at work this week. No big deal either way. Love how it feels on the wrist.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> Does it look just a tiny bit narrower? It might be me... long days at work this week. No big deal either way. Love how it feels on the wrist.
> View attachment 16015204
> 
> View attachment 16015205


They're identical.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Looks as identical as a picture on the internet can and Doc has confirmed that's the design intent. Good enough for me!

I'll probably end up with a v.2 at some point. Don't know which one. Would like something other than blue and different from the Thresher. My v.1 is still going to be the Santa Fe which I will find one day.

For my next 2K1, I'd like:

2K1 case
Matte black dial
Black bezel insert
Painted arrow markers
Narrower chapter ring to further "spread" the dial
Date at six o'clock
Sword hands
Red tipped second hand
C3 lume


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

davek35 said:


> Does it look just a tiny bit narrower? It might be me... long days at work this week. No big deal either way. Love how it feels on the wrist.
> View attachment 16015204
> 
> View attachment 16015205


Crown guards on one are definitely more narrow than the other


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Crown guards on one are definitely more narrow than the other


It's the angle. I ran a comparison by measuring the minute marker on the bezel. Just under 15 ticks for the top watch and just over 13 ticks for the one below.








A better way for visual comparison is position the crowns side by side as close as possible separated only by the crown guards.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Geekery intensifies...

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

ConfusedOne said:


> All those features and the case/bracelet isn't even ice hardened? Literally unwearable.


I know, right? Without that ice, it's basically like wearing metallic silly putty. And would it kill him to use steel from actual submarines??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ike2 said:


> And would it kill him to use steel from actual submarines??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And don't dare use Amphion steel to make a Tikuna&#8230;. Pic for attention.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

rpm1974 said:


> And don't dare use Amphion steel to make a Tikuna&#8230;. Pic for attention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ohhhhh&#8230;.Numbers!


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Ike2 said:


> I know, right? Without that ice, it's basically like wearing metallic silly putty. And would it kill him to use steel from actual submarines??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually given the inferior products used like putty, perhaps the watches should be named after Sesame Street characters... the Cookie...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Thresher, day 2. 1. 0913 it appears grass getting shabby. 2. Get out the tools (please ignore blurring). 3. An actual 1010 NON-STAGED shot of a sleek lawn. Freakin' humidity&#8230;82% when I rode this morning, 62% at 1010. Weather pattern has obviously forgotten this is West Texas!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Thresher, day 2. 1. 0913 it appears grass getting shabby. 2. Get out the tools (please ignore blurring). 3. An actual 1010 NON-STAGED shot of a sleek lawn. Freakin' humidity&#8230;82% when I rode this morning, 62% at 1010. Weather pattern has obviously forgotten this is West Texas!
> 
> View attachment 16016159
> 
> ...


I had an unstaged 1010 shot as well. Sorry, but mine was cooler!

Craning a 40k+lb. safe haven onto a truck.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> No one's complained about the clasp being too thick (well, maybe one or two wing-nuts).


I'm one of those wing nuts. Well, I'm not sure if I ever actually complained, I just prefer the V1 clasp because it's smaller, and with the half links, I just don't need 6 micro adjustments. So I put the V1 clasps on my V2 subs for extra comfort!












docvail said:


> I ain't mad at nobody, but goddam WIS as a group are pretty spoiled.
> 
> Drilled lugs. Expansion clasps. Fully articulated bracelet links. With date or no-date as available options. But no phantom date change positions. Enamel, meteorite, or gilt relief dials. Half links. Milled clasps with 6 micro-adjustments. High-beat movements, that don't just run within manufacturer's spec, but within COSC spec. Bronze. Titanium. Anti-scratch coatings. Multiple layers of AR...


You forgot we also asked for kintsugi on the enamel


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

No idea how. But dupe.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> I had an unstaged 1010 shot as well. Sorry, but mine was cooler!


Only because it was a Polar Swiftsure on orange rubber!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Red PeeKay said:


> Actually given the inferior products used like putty, perhaps the watches should be named after Sesame Street characters... the Cookie...


And anti-magnetic, with a soft iron cage. Can't hardly call it a proper tool watch if it don't got that...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

RotorRonin said:


> I'm one of those wing nuts. Well, I'm not sure if I ever actually complained, I just prefer the V1 clasp because it's smaller, and with the half links, I just don't need 6 micro adjustments. So I put the V1 clasps on my V2 subs for extra comfort!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BTW, i'd still like to get a v1 clasp, so if anyone wants a brand new v2 clasp, which I will have shipped to you direct from NTH in trade, hit me up via PM.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Actually given the inferior products used like putty, perhaps the watches should be named after Sesame Street characters... the Cookie...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I support this message


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I should have done this sooner. New arrival from WatchGauge, and it is a stunner in good light! In low light, you can really see the dial texture too


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I'm one of those wing nuts. Well, I'm not sure if I ever actually complained, I just prefer the V1 clasp because it's smaller, and with the half links, I just don't need 6 micro adjustments. So I put the V1 clasps on my V2 subs for extra comfort!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've actually had people tell me they prefer both the v.1 bracelet (without the fully articulated links), and the v.1 clasp, as pictured. One was actually a friend.

Weirdos.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

I think Doc might need to take a little hiatus from the forum!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> I should have done this sooner. New arrival from WatchGauge, and it is a stunner in good light! In low light, you can really see the dial texture too
> 
> View attachment 16016609
> 
> ...


Godfrey

I just wanted to say that I have purchased from NTH before (always top notch), I think this was my first from WatchGauge. Highly recommended! Quick shipping, solid communication, well packaged. I would gladly buy from them again.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

HammyMan37 said:


> I think Doc might need to take a little hiatus from the forum!


Nah. You have to read everything he says as though he's your sarcastic older brother. Or younger, in my case.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Some Friday night lume courtesy of 3 docked Subz....










Cheerz,

Alan


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ragl said:


> Some Friday night lume courtesy of 3 docked Subz....
> 
> View attachment 16016834
> 
> ...


Does Friday afternoon lume count?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Crown guards on the V2. Love the case size... pretty comfy!


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Ike2 said:


> I know, right? Without that ice, it's basically like wearing metallic silly putty. And would it kill him to use steel from actual submarines??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh my, a watch made out of submarine steel, named after actual submarines....


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Metallman said:


> Oh my, a watch made out of submarine steel, named after actual submarines....


Hmmm, sorta kinda like this one....https://zlatoustwatch.com/collection/193_bronze_pylkiy


Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hmmm, sorta kinda like this one....https://zlatoustwatch.com/collection/193_bronze_pylkiy
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Wow! A little pricey! At least its free shipping anywhere in the world.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Rhorya said:


> Wow! A little pricey! At least its free shipping anywhere in the world.


Man, they would have to pay me to wear that. You guys know Sinn makes a big deal out of making their dive watches from German submarine steel, right? And it's TEGIMENTED to boot. Jawohl!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Ike2 said:


> Man, they would have to pay me to wear that. You guys know Sinn makes a big deal out of making their dive watches from German submarine steel, right? And it's TEGIMENTED to boot. Jawohl!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And only cost NTH watch price x 4 to 6 (depending on which NTH you're using for price comparison)&#8230;


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Lab4Us said:


> And only cost NTH watch price x 4 to 6 (depending on which NTH you're using for price comparison)&#8230;


Exactly. But if money is no object and that stuff turns you on&#8230;. 
As it happens I have a wealthy friend who made the mistake of asking my recommendation for a classic dress watch he should buy since he doesn't have one. Price range $10k-$15k. Just sent him about 15 options. Probably annoying for him but fun for me. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hmmm, sorta kinda like this one....https://zlatoustwatch.com/collection/193_bronze_pylkiy
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Needs a bigger crown.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Needs a bigger crown.
> 
> View attachment 16017838


But does it anti-magnetic?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Posted this on Facebook, but I may as well post it here.

Chris Wiegand, owner and founder of Lum-Tec, had a severe dirt-bike accident the day before yesterday, and broke both his arms, pretty badly. He needed to have surgery on both yesterday morning.

I traded texts with his wife, Erin, last night, after his surgery. She gave me this update (shared here, with her explicit permission, so no forum rules are being violated)...










I don't remember how I first came into contact with Chris, but he's been a friend and mentor for years, at least as far back as 2014. He's always been willing to share his time and insights whenever I asked.

Chris's team assembled the Phantom Ghost Riders and the Spectre II's at their shop in Ohio. His people Nicole and Bes are top-notch.

Sounds like he's started on the road to recovery, but it can't hurt to have some more folks sending good vibes his way.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Traded more than a few emails with him regarding my 24hr watch ideas. I just sent him an email a couple nights ago in the latest discussion. One of the only one who even entertains the format and so he has my full support.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Nah. You have to read everything he says as though he's your sarcastic older brother. Or younger, in my case.


You know I'd be mom's favorite, too.

Actually, just saw this in my FB feed, and thought of you...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Needs a bigger crown.
> 
> View attachment 16017838


Ooooo... goody, Doc's gunna make a Nth with a bigger one as an example.... now for that bronze Doc? 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Ooooo... goody, Doc's gunna make a Nth with a bigger one as an example.... now for that bronze Doc?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk












"Son&#8230; just don't."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> "Son&#8230; just don't."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok... 
But what about this mystery NTH non-diver that Doc brought up in an interview and then refused to elaborate on?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Ok...
> But what about this mystery NTH non-diver that Doc brought up in an interview and then refused to elaborate on?
> View attachment 16019519


Stop shaking your Christmas presents. Santa gonna drop a WOT!

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Not to brag or anything, but the production models are even better than the prototypes. I couldn't resist pulling one of these for myself.




























-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Looks effing stellar, Rusty.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Not to brag or anything, but the production models are even better than the prototypes. I couldn't resist pulling one of these for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Has shipping started yet? Where's my tracking number?

Filing a chargeback dispute in 3...2...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The ability to swap around my OEM parts is fun. I put the DLC bracelet on the Tikuda once. Now for BoP on the Rosso.

Will it stay like this? Nah. Will I wear this setup to work tomorrow? Yeah.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Posted this on Facebook, but I may as well post it here.
> 
> Chris Wiegand, owner and founder of Lum-Tec, had a severe dirt-bike accident the day before yesterday, and broke both his arms, pretty badly. He needed to have surgery on both yesterday morning.
> 
> ...


Tough news indeed, glad he survived. Praying for quick recovery


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Has shipping started yet? Where's my tracking number?
> 
> Filing a chargeback dispute in 3...2...


How good did that feel doc?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

rpm1974 said:


> Not to brag or anything, but the production models are even better than the prototypes. I couldn't resist pulling one of these for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the bronze large crown lefty version of this is being released when you say Rusty? 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

My Antilles and a different tropical Island.










OK I need to fess up here, its not the actual Island as that is currently hiding under a thick layer of Haar (Scottish sea fog), but Google Earth is the next best thing. I'll see if it clears tomorrow when we are closer for another pic.

and whilst I am confessing, its not truly a tropical island either, I don't think there is any danger that Doc will name the next Tropics watch "Shetland", but it was very sunny as you can see by the glint on the dial below


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

rpm1974 said:


> Not to brag or anything, but the production models are even better than the prototypes. I couldn't resist pulling one of these for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rusty those photos look great, so glad I ordered one now. Oh and that Doc pointed me in your direction too.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

gavindavie said:


> Rusty those photos look great, so glad I ordered one now. Oh and that Doc pointed me in your direction too.


Doc's aight sometimes.

Thanks for your order - we hope to be shipping in a week or so.

-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Okay got it in a few minutes ago doc

It’s the bees knees. Excellent work.

Can’t really describe what I’m seeing with the dial but I ****ing like it


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

PS. Dat lume.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Like this dial is really cool, I know it’s not applied markers and such but it gives that effect in a different way

There’s a muted sunburst that’s just very very nice.

The bezel is just wow, the red touches are great.

Like this is an amalgamation of little contrasting details that set each other off


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Like this dial is really cool, I know it's not applied markers and such but it gives that effect in a different way
> 
> There's a muted sunburst that's just very very nice.
> 
> ...


Pix or it didn't happen...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Pix or it didn't happen...


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, someone on FB posted this the other day. It's one of our BOR bracelets on a 38mm Seiko SARB.

So...it seems like our 20mm bracelets for the 40mm Subs will fit both the 38mm SKX's and the 38mm SARB's.

Now that I'm posting this, I feel like someone else already posted a pic like this here, proving the same thing, some time back. Maybe @kpjimmy ?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for your purchase. Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Also, someone on FB posted this the other day. It's one of our BOR bracelets on a 38mm Seiko SARB.
> 
> So...it seems like our 20mm bracelets for the 40mm Subs will fit both the 38mm SKX's and the 38mm SARB's.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have been using Uncle Seiko's back and forth for some time. But I have not circled back for about a year or close to it, to those bracelets that fit the SKX013. Also the Uncle Seiko end links are hollow so there's a chance of scratchys on the case if there's movement on endlinks. So I try not to put those one anymore lol. But I am not sure I was the one using the NTH's BOR on the SKX013s. I am not that smart lol.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Thanks for your purchase. Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


I thought about complaining about some silly and stupid but I really do like it

The Uv light it came with was nice

By the power vested in me I demand lume

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

&#8230;aaaaaannnnnnddddd just because it's Monday!


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

My only trouble will be if I bonus again a few more times this year and I can swing either an Antilles or swiftsure. 

I can see both on my wrist whenever my family goes to vacation in Hawaii

I reckon I can think about that more later this year


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Also doc, you mentioned hibeat movement and that speaks to the smoothness of the second hand right?

It’s pretty damn smooth. On a glance I don’t really se it bounce. I gotta sit and really pay attention to the second hand to see the jitter. It’s very beautiful to watch this watch


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

So many actual watch pics happening recently. This is a trend I like! 👍


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> So many actual watch pics happening recently. This is a trend I like!


Yup.

















Oh yea&#8230;. This is an NTH thread.


















-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Here's some more! This morning's ride&#8230;


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Spoke to soon lol
















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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

okay heres some negativity doc.

sarcastic negativity.

I dont think my half link was fully articulated I took one off and decided to add it back and it was quite "stiff". Also Im not sure if i see the value in a lumed crown, its cool for like six seconds and i dont really look at it.

I tell you what though, articulated links are a blessing, i just sold my boldr and it was like that and i think the bracelet is what made such a huge and heavy watch wearable. This barracuda feels very light on the wrist next to say my steinhart 39. My guess is that articulated bracelets flow with the wrist better an offer better support.

Also i appreciate that the watch came with either extra links or every link not being on the watch. I only had to take off three links and move the micro adjust one down. Also the uv light was a nice touch. Also a shout out to serious watches, the giftwrapped the thing and threw in some swag including a microfiber cloth. A few things they didnt have to do and it felt like shopping a small local shop. Usually i dont care too much about all that, like the box the watch comes in is never a big deal right into storage it goes, but it was a nice gesture.

Gonna keep trying to get more and better pictures of it, please no one tempt me with pictures of their antilles or blue swiftsure


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

It is almost like two different watches depending on light. I like it

Also, it is not my first internal rotating bezel, but it is the first with a screw down crown. It makes all the difference in the world!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Also doc, you mentioned hibeat movement and that speaks to the smoothness of the second hand right?
> 
> It's pretty damn smooth. On a glance I don't really se it bounce. I gotta sit and really pay attention to the second hand to see the jitter. It's very beautiful to watch this watch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


By current standards, the Miyota 9 series's 28k bph (8 beats per second) is considered "high-beat", even though there are higher beats, like 36k bph (10 bps), which by default would make the Seiko NH3X series's 21.6k rate (6 / second) "low-beat".

But I seem to remember reading that 21.6k was once considered high-beat, when movements beating that fast first appeared, I guess at a time when 4 bps or 5 bps was the norm (14.4k and 18k bph, respectively).

I see peeps bemoaning the Seiko's lower beat rate, but personally, it's never bothered me, because I never notice the difference, at least not with the Seikos. I'd have to be trying to count the beats per second to see the difference, and the only reason I can think of why I'd do that is to prove a point.

The NH35's seconds hand is directly driven. So aside from beating fewer times per second (compared to the Miyota 9's), it shouldn't have any noticeable "bounce", if that's to mean an uneven motion.

Now, if it was the Miyota 8 series, with its indirectly-driven, "stuttering" seconds hand, I could understand the complaints, though I'd think they'd be more about the wonky hand motion than the actual beat rate.

Here's a weird thing, though...

I recently saw someone post a video of a watch with the Seiko NH15 to Facebook, to show the truly staggering stutter of its seconds hand. The stuttering of the seconds hand in the video was more obvious and herky-jerky than any Miyota 8 series I've ever seen. It seems that people who backed the watch on Kickstarter are unhappy about it.

I wasn't familiar with the NH15. Caliber Corner lists it as a "Ladies or Midsize Calibre". That would make it appear to just be a smaller-diameter (yet thicker) version of NH35, but it really isn't. Just looking at them, you can see they're quite different. Looking at their specs and technical guides, the main / only thing they have in common appears to be the beat rate.

I'm in no way expert enough to look at an exploded view of the movement and know for certain, but it does appear to me that the seconds hand is also indirectly driven. For anyone mechanically inclined, here are links to the technical guide (including exploded view) of the NH15, and the NH35, for comparison:



https://www.timemodule.com/upload/PDF/NH15_TG.pdf





https://www.timemodule.com/upload/PDF/NH35_TG.pdf



Maybe my understanding is wrong, but I think the seconds hand runs off the fourth wheel. And whereas the fourth wheel of the NH35 appears centrally mounted, the NH15's appears to be offset from center.

I was looking at the watch, and I can't figure out why the project creators used that movement, instead of the NH35.

The case isn't "small", at 42mm, so it's not like they needed to use a smaller diameter movement, especially as it would force them to make the case thicker. The watch is 14.4mm thick, with a flat crystal, and only 300m WR - as thick as the DevilRay, which has 200m more WR, and a double-domed crystal.

My first thought was that they must have wanted to use a smaller movement in order to move the date window inboard of the applied markers, so they could avoid cutting off the marker by the date. But, nope, that marker is still cut off.

The project ran from September to October last year. my guess is they may have been considering their movement options earlier in the year, around the same time we were producing the DevilRay, with the NH35. If there were challenges sourcing NH35's at that time, I either wasn't aware of it, or I just don't remember it.

It's a shame, because it's a nice-looking watch.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> It's a shame, because it's a nice-looking watch.
> 
> View attachment 16023513


Your taste in watches and mine are decidedly much different!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I just learned that the NH15 exists

As for beat rate, it never bothers me. My SPB is 21,600 and I never notice anything different when swapping from a Miyota driven Doc watch. Maybe I'm too complacent or maybe my eyesight is going from too much time on this damn forum


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> okay heres some negativity doc.
> 
> sarcastic negativity.
> 
> ...


Re - the half-links - you have me at a disadvantage, because I'm not in my office, or near any of my watches at this moment. Does the center-section of the half-link pivot, at all, even if it's stiff? If so, then it's articulated. It shouldn't be stiff, but if it is, a small dab of lubricant should loosen it up, if it doesn't loosen up on its own, through use.

Re - the lumed crown - it's a gimmick. But it's a cool gimmick, and NTH was the first microbrand to use it. Now everyone's making watches with lumed crowns, no matter how pointless it is. Go figure.

Re - the 2 separate links with the watch - I consider the 2 spare links included with the watch to be just that - spares, though anyone with gorilla-wrists could view them as "extras, just in case". I suppose it doesn't matter if they're there in the event someone loses links or screws, and needs replacements, or just needs the bracelet to be bigger.

Re - the lume torch - make sure you remove the paper disk inside. Also, if you're overly aggressive with the button, it's possible to push it too far into the housing, disconnecting the circuit inside. It's not broken if that happens, just remove the cap and push it back out to reconnect it.

Re - Serious - yes, I know they and Watch Gauge do a nice job with the presentation, from gift-wrapping, personalized notes, and including little extras. I haven't heard too much about what our other retailers do, but I hope they all find ways to enhance the opening experience. I see it as one of the values in a brand like mine working with retailers.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Your taste in watches and mine are decidedly much different!


Perhaps.

I'm not saying it's the best design I've ever seen. But fundamentally, I think it's sound. And there are aspects I like, such as the way the hands complement the applied indices.

The brand is based in Hong Kong, and their more recent projects have been a bit more unconventional in their designs. I find things to admire in them, even if there are things I'd have done differently. I applaud them for taking some risks with what they're doing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I just learned that the NH15 exists
> 
> As for beat rate, it never bothers me. My SPB is 21,600 and I never notice anything different when swapping from a Miyota driven Doc watch. Maybe I'm too complacent or maybe my eyesight is going from too much time on this damn forum


Maybe you're just not OCD enough.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Maybe you're just not OCD enough.


Thanks for the compliment


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> I just learned that the NH15 exists
> 
> As for beat rate, it never bothers me. My SPB is 21,600 and I never notice anything different when swapping from a Miyota driven Doc watch. Maybe I'm too complacent or maybe my eyesight is going from too much time on this damn forum


Other than to make sure a watch is running, I doubt I even look at second hands very often, let alone track. My number one qualifier on an automatic is whether it keeps reasonable time&#8230;which to me is +/- 10 seconds per day. I realize most quote -15/+30, but I find that ridiculous. I have been very lucky in the automatics I've bought, regardless of price.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Other than to make sure a watch is running, I doubt I even look at second hands very often, let alone track. My number one qualifier on an automatic is whether it keeps reasonable time&#8230;which to me is +/- 10 seconds per day. I realize most quote -15/+30, but I find that ridiculous. I have been very lucky in the automatics I've bought, regardless of price.


This is kind of a pet peeve of mine (not directed at you, specifically, only quoting you since you mention it)...

People quote (and frequently deride) the accuracy specs of movements as if they're analogous to the performance specs of a car, like estimated fuel efficiency or 0-60 times. They're not.

If the manufacturer says you should average 25 mpg, or get from 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, then that's what all those cars will, or at least can do (in ideal conditions). Likewise, people seem to think that -15/+30 is what they should expect from the watch.

But those numbers are more like a "worst-case scenario". Those numbers define the limits of the acceptable daily variation range, and only when measured under specific conditions (at full power, and only in certain positions). The vast majority of those movements will run better than those specs.

It kills me to see people being snobby about the Japanese movements' stated accuracy numbers, knowing the manufacturers' specs are ridiculously conservative. We rarely see any that are running even close to the outer limits of their acceptable range.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Hm. 90% of my watches have NHxx movements, low beat matches my physiology. 

There are some Miyotas mixed in, both 8 and 9 series. The 8s are mostly “vintagey” styled, and I think the whacky seconds hand contributes to the design.. a hi beat Flieger? Gtfo… the hacking version of the 8215 is perfect in these watches(I’ve swapped an early Borealis).. The stutter is kind of cool, mechanical things have twitches and variations, that cold hearted precision cannot capture.

The 9s are fine, bit smoother/bit more accurate, bit thinner, bit noisier, not a huge margin in differences between the TMI and Miyotas. Very odd that the Citizen Group doesn’t use them often. Like the weird Accuswiss line(RIP), why? Is it because Accunippon was taken? Thanks study groups… 

The basic Swiss movements, hand winding feels like I’m causing damage, 2824/SW200, similar performance to the Miyota 9s, but meh, if I hadn’t wanted the rest of the watch, meh. I prefer the Bulova precisionist quartz movements over these(sure wish they’d sell them to other manufacturers).

Also, odd that someone would pick the NH15 over any of the other NH movements, must’ve got a massive discount on a batch… Margins! 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

I know not directed at me, but I have 5 autos with Japanese movements (plus all my G-shocks, that’s 5 more). Two autos with Swiss movements, plus the 2 Isobrites. So 10 to 4, Japanese to Swiss movements, so far, for me. So no dog in the Japanese vs Swiss movements fight. I do appreciate the education that -15/+30 is a theoretical maximum. I didn’t know that and just thought I was getting very lucky with my automatics. Maybe I should raise my standard and expect even more accuracy!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Re - the half-links - you have me at a disadvantage, because I'm not in my office, or near any of my watches at this moment. Does the center-section of the half-link pivot, at all, even if it's stiff? If so, then it's articulated. It shouldn't be stiff, but if it is, a small dab of lubricant should loosen it up, if it doesn't loosen up on its own, through use.
> 
> Re - the lumed crown - it's a gimmick. But it's a cool gimmick, and NTH was the first microbrand to use it. Now everyone's making watches with lumed crowns, no matter how pointless it is. Go figure.


Pretty sure the half links are solid, not articulated. Which is fine. Same as on the Glycine Combat 6 5-link bracelets - otherwise fully articulated, but solid half-links.

You know your story about Halios pushing the whole "phantom date" thing? Do you not think microbrand owners curse you for the whole "lumed crown" "feature"?


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

The case finishing style and the definition on the endlinks is so nice to look at









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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Took a few shots









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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Don't have the Tapatalk VIP so one at a time we go









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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

I’m just yanking your chain on my two complaints.. 

I meant to say watch gauge also. Dunno why I said serious watches


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Other than to make sure a watch is running, I doubt I even look at second hands very often, let alone track. My number one qualifier on an automatic is whether it keeps reasonable time&#8230;which to me is +/- 10 seconds per day. I realize most quote -15/+30, but I find that ridiculous. I have been very lucky in the automatics I've bought, regardless of price.


For the most part same for me. I appreciate a watch running super tight but it doesn't ruin my day when or if it doesn't. I like to watch the seconds hand cause the sweep! I do like to reset the time anywhere from daily to a few weeks, just like to see how it's running. I don't track it super specifically though with an app or anything like that

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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Pretty sure the half links are solid, not articulated. Which is fine. Same as on the Glycine Combat 6 5-link bracelets - otherwise fully articulated, but solid half-links.
> 
> You know your story about Halios pushing the whole "phantom date" thing? Do you not think microbrand owners curse you for the whole "lumed crown" "feature"?


Do you think lumed crown is a draw? Sometimes I think it looks cool but in general I deem it inconsequential.

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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> Do you think lumed crown is a draw? Sometimes I think it looks cool but in general I deem it inconsequential.


For me, same as "phantom date" crown position - don't care. In fact, signed crown is lost on me, too. But some seem to care very, very much. And once you add lume to a signed crown, you've started a must-have trend...

Another thing I don't care about: beat rate. I have Vostoks, Seiko NH35s, Miyota 9105s, and even a Seiko 4502 beating at 36k, twice the rate of Vostok movements. And...? Meh. As long as it runs and keeps decent time, great.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Do you think lumed crown is a draw? Sometimes I think it looks cool but in general I deem it inconsequential.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


That's the point, I'm pretty sure. That it's inconsequential but now people want it.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Not a draw for me. Don’t think I’ve ever looked at it. Not even sure which watches have it. Dial appeal, WR, movement. I usually replace bands, so that’s not a draw for me either.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

yeah i dont think i even thought about if the watch was hibeat or not. Its fun to learn and read about.



JLS36 said:


> Do you think lumed crown is a draw? Sometimes I think it looks cool but in general I deem it inconsequential.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


First time seeing it, its neat i guess. I only get to look at it do its thing when i specifically charge the crown then look at the crown so meh. Ive never even cared that the crown is signed.

I was really just complaining about some stuff that doesnt matter to doc as a joke


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

okay the dial on this v2 cuda is a stunner, the sunburst effect looks like its coming off the dial plate underneath the coating (or whatever) under the black. It looks like the sunburst is coming through it and bringing a slight touch of gold color into the sunburst. Its pretty damn slick and im gonna try my best to get a picture of that


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> okay the dial on this v2 cuda is a stunner, the sunburst effect looks like its coming off the dial plate underneath the coating (or whatever) under the black. It looks like the sunburst is coming through it and bringing a slight touch of gold color into the sunburst. Its pretty damn slick and im gonna try my best to get a picture of that


Something like this?









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Something like this?
> View attachment 16024131
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


something, i bet its gonna be hard as hell to capture, one of those things you gotta see to get the effect.

I know its really a fairly flat dial but it still has a ton of depth, that was a real nice thing, i was getting ready for flat dial


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Maybe I should raise my standard and expect even more accuracy!


Well...maybe, maybe not.

I see guys online arguing / complaining about the accuracy of this or that movement, in this or that watch. I've tried to make this argument before (with varying degrees of success), but I think it's dependent on what you're paying for the watch in question (which just opens up other cans of worms).

The more you're paying, the more reasonable I think the demands for better accuracy become.

There was a time when we didn't regulate them all the way we do now. But we got to a point with our prices that we had to take a hard look at it, and figure out how to find a reasonable balance point between the regulation we could do and what we could charge to do it.

I asked Dan what it would take to get *every* Miyota 9 running -2 to +2 per day, which I know is *possible*, but probably not a *realistic* expectation, based on the price "ceiling" the market seems to put on microbrand watches running Miyota 9's in them.

Hypothetically, would most customers accept paying another $200 (or more) for the same watch, from the same brand, with the same specs and components, because we were able to get them all running within 2 seconds per day (at full power, on a timegrapher, etc)? We're talking about a $900 NTH Sub in this scenario. I think not, given the pushback we see on a $700 NTH Sub.

We decided that getting COSC-level performance was going to be too costly, and we wouldn't be able to work that cost into the retail price, so we settled on 1/2 of spec as our brand's balance point (again, 1/2 of spec being our *limit*, not the *target*, which is actually around 8 seconds per day).

Even before that, though - most of our watches ran well within spec already. The improvement to COSC performance levels didn't seem like enough of an improvement to warrant the increase in cost / price which would have come along with it.

Now, if you're looking at that, and then comparing it to some watch from some Chinese factory brand, at half the price, I don't think it's a fair comparison, to us or to them. Sure, it may be the same movement inside, but I wouldn't expect them to do the extra regulation we're doing, so it's not really a truly apples-to-apples comparison.

You might get lucky with one of those watches that costs less, but I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it happening very often.



mconlonx said:


> Pretty sure the half links are solid, not articulated. Which is fine. Same as on the Glycine Combat 6 5-link bracelets - otherwise fully articulated, but solid half-links.
> 
> You know your story about Halios pushing the whole "phantom date" thing? Do you not think microbrand owners curse you for the whole "lumed crown" "feature"?


Just checked mine. Yep, the half-links are not fully articulated.

I now remember it was the same way with the short-links of the v.1 DevilRay bracelet. Must be something with the construction of those shorter links. Don]t ask me to explain it, because I can't.



Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Don't have the Tapatalk VIP so one at a time we go


I don't remember what I paid to upgrade to Tapatalk pro, but whatever it was, and it was a small amount, it was worth it. I think it was $4 or $5. That was 7 years ago. It's not just the added features that come with it, but also the removal of all ads (I think - it's been so long I don't remember all the benefits - does regular tapatalk show ads?).

The app transfers from old to new phones, too, so it was $4 or $5, one time, 2 or 3 phones ago. Every time I get a new phone, I just download the app, log in, and boom - pro.



Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> I'm just yanking your chain on my two complaints..
> 
> I meant to say watch gauge also. Dunno why I said serious watches
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, I knew you were just jerking my chain. I didn't overlook your inclusion of "sarcasm".

Still - sometimes I feel like offering up a response.

Other times, not so much.



mconlonx said:


> For me, same as "phantom date" crown position - don't care. In fact, signed crown is lost on me, too. But some seem to care very, very much. And once you add lume to a signed crown, you've started a must-have trend...
> 
> Another thing I don't care about: beat rate. I have Vostoks, Seiko NH35s, Miyota 9105s, and even a Seiko 4502 beating at 36k, twice the rate of Vostok movements. And...? Meh. As long as it runs and keeps decent time, great.


It's funny to be asked if I think other brand owners hate me because of the lumed crown thing.

God, I hope so.

First off - I don't hate Jason from Halios because of the phantom date change thing. That's not how my brain works. Just the opposite. The way I see it, when market expectations are raised, it forces brands to adapt, typically by improving the product. So long as those improvements can be rationalized (read: "the costs can be passed along to the customer in the retail price"), I'm all for it. Higher prices should equal higher profits. I see it as win-win.

The difference here, I think, is that no one was begging for a lumed crown. We just did it because we thought it would be a cool thing to do. Before NTH did it, the only brand I'm aware of that did it was Omega, and only on their DLC or ceramic Speedmaster models. It was unheard of among micros, and helped increase the buzz about NTH as the brand was launching, which was a good thing, of course.

Since then, it seems like every other micro is also doing it, and yet - you don't see them giving credit to NTH as being the first.

Compare that to the no-phantom-date change thing. I don't mind crediting (or blaming) Jason for being ahead of the curve on that one. I thought he was nuts at the time, because at the time, I didn't see anyone complaining about it, so it seemed like a solution in search of a problem. Leave it to WIS to create the problem once they were shown the solution.

How do the two compare in terms of enjoyment of the product? I honestly think both are secondary to the primary drivers of watch enjoyment - design, quality, comfort, etc (or if you want to make it your thing - accuracy).

But whereas there's a large crowd of people who get their pants in a twist over phantom date changes on the crown, I don't see anyone complaining about a lack of lume in the crown (yet). One's functional, the other decorative.

But I think both demonstrate the brand's attention to detail in product development. I think Jason deserves credit for being OCD about phantom date changes, since he led the way to all brands feeling the pressure to improve the product (and by extension - charging more for it as a result). I don't mind giving credit where it's due. I openly admit when I've stolen good ideas from Chip (Aevig) and other brands.

It would be nice if other brands likewise gave me and my business the occasional tip of the hat when they're lifting ideas from us, which happens a lot more than people seem to realize. I don't mention it much, because from what I've seen, it never goes over very well when a brand owner does that, especially if the brand's designs aren't 100% unique and original.

"Bah! How dare you complain about so-and-so stealing your lumed crown idea, when you're blatantly ripping off Rolex and Tudor!?!?"

My house may not be entirely made of glass, but it does have some big picture windows.

As for the beat-rate thing - I think it's a nice to have. Again, I'm outside my area of expertise, but higher beats seem to go with better accuracy, and to the extent people care about accuracy in a mechanical movement, I guess that's a good thing.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

I'm not on forums very much or super consistently so its kind of a moot point for me. However i will pay for premium membership when selling a watch or a knife cause ebay sucks.

God you cracked me up good with the hope other brand owners hate you for the lumed crown. Id probably be one of them, all the more because no one asked.

Hilarious. Well you will always be bashed for making homages so im not shocked stuff you do is looked over. On a side note is the antilles an original design?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Don't have the Tapatalk VIP so one at a time we go
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you login using a browser and not tapatalk you can post multiple pics at no cost


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

i do care about accuracy, but it doesnt have to be some exceptional thing. Usually im more than happy with performance.

im running 1-2 seconds fast for the first day and whatever hours on the new cuda. I love that its doing that but i dont feel compelled to get a real specific number on how accurate it is. Its more than fine. my steinhart premium does real well and ill let it go for a week or two with out checking and figure its off enough to "matter" and go to check and change it only to find im like 4-8 seconds slow. So i leave it, its beating my expectations by a country mile. 

I actually posted on facebook steinhart page how pleased i was with that accuracy and someone posted about it being a pointless thing cause its no where near as accurate as a quartz. On a steinhart page, i dont think steinhart makes a quartz so it should be all mechanical guys and that watch was doing fantastic for a mechanical. It was a phenomenal post.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> If you login using a browser and not tapatalk you can post multiple pics at no cost


yeah and full resolution! I may have to do that when i pop my phone case off next time cause my pics are kinda hazy and i bet its the case.

i get notifications from tapatalk and its nice and it works. Iunno if i keep posting in this thread at least and bonuses keep going well and i buy another nth then that vip access will make sense. Also i dont have a computer, almost never need one. I know i could use my phone browser but i usually have like 30+ tabs going all the time cause im a walking disaster.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> I'm not on forums very much or super consistently so its kind of a moot point for me. However i will pay for premium membership when selling a watch or a knife cause ebay sucks.
> 
> God you cracked me up good with the hope other brand owners hate you for the lumed crown. Id probably be one of them, all the more because no one asked.
> 
> Hilarious. Well you will always be bashed for making homages so im not shocked stuff you do is looked over. On a side note is the antilles an original design?


Define "original".

I hate all arguments about homages, because they inevitably become tedious flame-wars between folks at either extreme of the opinion spectrum.

I see homage / design in shades of gray. The Tropics designs aren't close homages to any one design in particular, but we borrowed styling cues from many different designs, then added our own ideas to the mix.

Make of that what you will. I'll try not to argue.



Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i do care about accuracy, but it doesnt have to be some exceptional thing. Usually im more than happy with performance.
> 
> im running 1-2 seconds fast for the first day and whatever hours on the new cuda. I love that its doing that but i dont feel compelled to get a real specific number on how accurate it is. Its more than fine. my steinhart premium does real well and ill let it go for a week or two with out checking and figure its off enough to "matter" and go to check and change it only to find im like 4-8 seconds slow. So i leave it, its beating my expectations by a country mile.
> 
> I actually posted on facebook steinhart page how pleased i was with that accuracy and someone posted about it being a pointless thing cause its no where near as accurate as a quartz. On a steinhart page, i dont think steinhart makes a quartz so it should be all mechanical guys and that watch was doing fantastic for a mechanical. It was a phenomenal post.


I tend to agree that discussing accuracy in mechanical movements is kind of pointless. If it matters so much, to anyone, they should buy a quartz watch, and move on with their lives.

There are 86,400 seconds in a day. A mechanical watch that keeps time within 30 seconds a day is accurately tracking within 0.03%, or, in other words, it's 99.97% accurate.

Imagine your boss getting up in your grill if your performance on the job slipped below 0.03% of "absolutely 100% perfect".

GTFOH.

Arguing over the difference between "superlative chronometer" and "+12 per day" is like two dudes with short phallus syndrome breaking out their rulers.

Put 'em away, boys. Ain't no need for it. Whatever you're compensating for, no one cares.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

that price ceiling vs regulated is a bit silly doc, as in not willing to pay cause its myota. If the sucker is durable and holds that kinda time reliably would it still not be a value compared to swiss watch doing the same. I agree the question becomes do you sell them at $900? I probably wouldnt and i think youre in a happy space where the watches are regulated and run well at worst.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Define "original".


i guess vs the cuda or my steinhart ocean one. I dont blame you for not wanting to go down that path. The tropics just looked more original to me, im not ultra familiar with everything out there but they remind me of styles era and such but i dont look at it and also see a tudor black bay ya know.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> I may have to do that when i pop my phone case off next time cause my pics are kinda hazy and i bet its the case.


I use this. Leaves camera lenses uncovered, yet case is deep enough to prevent lenses contacting tables, etc. Though I use the iPhone 11 model.









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www.amazon.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i guess vs the cuda or my steinhart ocean one. I dont blame you for not wanting to go down that path. The tropics just looked more original to me, im not ultra familiar with everything out there but they remind me of styles era and such but i dont look at it and also see a tudor black bay ya know.


All design is arguably derivative of something else, rendering absolute originality impossible to achieve.

Like I said, shades of gray.

I think it's accurate to say some designs resemble other designs more, and some less. I like when people notice and appreciate the little things we've done differently, rather than fixating on those things we deliberately kept familiar.

But whatevs. I'd rather not argue about it, which is what always seems to happen when people start discussing it.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> I use this. Leaves camera lenses uncovered, yet case is deep enough to prevent lenses contacting tables, etc. Though I use the iPhone 11 model.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i use a waterproof case and mine is broken so i do need a new one. Its also the best drop case ive ever had, i tend to be harsh on things like my phone so a case has to be able to survive me. So far the pelican marine has been excellent. However the part over the camera can get scuffed and even lightly makes for fuzzy pics.

I appreciate the link though, ill check it out cause my luck would be i pull my phone out its case and it falls and at lease busts some glass. I just use a 2020se.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Define "original".
> 
> I hate all arguments about homages, because they inevitably become tedious flame-wars between folks at either extreme of the opinion spectrum.
> 
> ...


My opinion is that the tropics are not homages to anything, so they are original. Am I an expert? Of course not. Have I wasted enough time on here to see far too many watches? Yes

Some watches are obviously homages, and that is fine. At this point anybody with enough time in their hands and a vendetta could make a case that something similar existed before.

Bringing it back....they are original IMO


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> All design is arguably derivative of something else, rendering absolute originality impossible to achieve.
> 
> Like I said, shades of gray.
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar enough with the originals to split hairs but i enjoy the build quality and the care that went into this watch. Your execution as a whole is impressive. The case finishing and the definition of the end links is really nice. This watch balances an understated look with little pops of great details all over. Its a real treat and right up my alley. The antilles is growing on me a lot, its so handsome, the color and the texture is just wow. The blue swift still has my eye too. Gonna be a tough call should the work and bonus flow keep up like they say it is till years end.

Oh i find myself used to either a date or a phantom postion, twice ive tried to pull the stem more(not hard and gave it up quick) and stopped the seconds hand early as im used to the extra position apparently. What a silly thing and made myself chuckle.

the dial is stunning and seems like the watch plate comes through very mildly in the sunburst, as if the plate has the burst and it comes through along wit ha very soft shade of the plate color in the right light. I think you beat my expectations on this dial, i was ready to not be in love with it but still like it. Its really quite a mesmerizing dial and doesnt really seem as flat as it is, there is a good bit of depth to the dial which i love


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Oh the stickers were not too hard to take off, that was nice. I think i got them all too. just found a very small one on the locking arms of the clasp, whatever those are called. Watch was well protected and the game find the stickers wasnt super hard.

The box was nice, in that i think it stores easier. Probably my most hated part of any review is the packaging. The least important part, but that is what it is.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Thresher has settled in at less than -2 seconds/day. Been that way for coming up on a month. Started out +6-8 depending on if I was wearing it or not. I was happy then and happier now.

Tapatalk was great and I was a very, very early Pro adopter and paid $2.99 for it in 2010. It became harder and harder to keep that access/status and I had to send an email with my receipt/proof of purchase every time an update came out.

Then the Pro version was deprecated and everyone got ad free and if you wanted VIP - to this day I'm not sure what that exactly means - you had to enter into a subscription agreement. For a little while, they honored my Pro purchase and gave me VIP status. Then, a few years ago, abruptly decided that they just couldn't do this any longer because it wasn't "fair" to the newer users. My choice was to pay monthly for an app that to me had become more difficult to navigate and frustrating to get it to behave how I wanted or move on.

I ditched Tapatalk in late 2019 or early 2020, I think. Soooo much easier using the DuckDuckGo browser, fireproofing the forum sites, and then adding a shortcut to my homescreen. It's like each forum has it's own app icon. The only thing missing is native push notifications but those were a disaster with Tapatalk at the end of my experience anyway. Turn on email notifications if you want. I just click on the home screen shortcut a couple times a day and use the forums' on site alert system to see what needs to be checked.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Managed to get an okay shot of the dial that hopefully shows what I'm talking about. Seems like the dial plate shines through









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> For me, same as "phantom date" crown position - don't care. In fact, signed crown is lost on me, too. But some seem to care very, very much. And once you add lume to a signed crown, you've started a must-have trend...
> 
> Another thing I don't care about: beat rate. I have Vostoks, Seiko NH35s, Miyota 9105s, and even a Seiko 4502 beating at 36k, twice the rate of Vostok movements. And...? Meh. As long as it runs and keeps decent time, great.


I generally don't care but the minor cost difference in nh35 vs miyota 9015 leads me to choose the miyota. But I don't wear my watches long enough for accuracy to be a huge issue.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All this talk about Tapatalk Pro vs Premium vs Plebian made me think I should confirm what the hell I'm actually using.

Turns out I'm still using Pro...










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's another pet peeve...

If you're not willing to say something to someone's face, in person, in real life, in the real world, within arm's reach, where you might get punched for saying it, don't say it to someone on the internet.

I can't stand Keyboard Kommandos. Do people who go around freely insulting others on the internet not realize how douchey it is, if they'd never say these things if they were standing in front of the person to whom they were speaking?

And before anyone points out that there have been times when I was less than gentlemanly to someone on the internet, I can assure you (and anyone who has ever met me and spent more than 20 seconds in my presence will back me up on this) - how I am on the web is EXACTLY how I am in person.

If I say it online, I'd say it in person, without a moment's hesitation. The protections of the virtual realm mean nothing to me.

Really is semi-amazing I don't have more friends...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Here's another pet peeve...
> 
> If you're not willing to say something to someone's face, in person, in real life, in the real world, within arm's reach, where you might get punched for saying it, don't say it to someone on the internet.
> 
> ...


I am genuinely surprised at the number of anonymous a-holes on a watch forum. It was expected on car forums, as everyone was trying to be faster. Here it makes no sense.

I agree with you. I did not grow up in a "let's talk this out" community


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> that price ceiling vs regulated is a bit silly doc, as in not willing to pay cause its myota. If the sucker is durable and holds that kinda time reliably would it still not be a value compared to swiss watch doing the same. I agree the question becomes do you sell them at $900? I probably wouldnt and i think youre in a happy space where the watches are regulated and run well at worst.


Man, I just report the news. I don't write the news.

My read is that most people aren't willing to pay $900 for a microbrand watch, assembled in China, using parts made in China, running a Miyota 9 series in it, no matter how accurate it may be.

Or maybe they're just not willing to buy that watch from me, here in the US of A, when I don't tell any fanciful tales of scouring the planet for rare-earth minerals, or post pics supporting otherwise outlandish claims of our made-in-Americaness.

I don't blame them, necessarily.

I'm not making any value judgments about any of it. In fact, I kind of agree with the peeps who put a mental ceiling on what they want to spend, all things considered. If another brand was charging $900 for something like an NTH Sub, because it was regulated to within 2 seconds per day, I'd question their decision-making.

I think it's stupid when people put a ceiling on what they'll spend for any "micro", regardless of how much the watch may have cost that micro to produce, or simply because "China", when I know how much "Swiss" comes from there. But there is a point at which even I look at a watch, and think it's been over-developed (and over-priced) for its most likely consumer.

I hate when peeps decide whether or not the price of a watch is "fair" just by looking at the specs and components, but I'd be lying if I said I've never done something similar.

I routinely look at watches, then look at all the specs and components, trying to figure out what the watch probably cost to produce, what I'd probably charge for it, and if there's any reason why it should command a price premium over comparable alternatives.

It's not all about costs. It's also about people's perception of value.

I think it's reasonable for most people to say the out-of-the-box performance of the typical Miyota 9 series is good enough in most $400-$700 watches running that movement, and that's what it should cost, and that paying $200 more to get one running better - by 6 to 12 seconds per day - doesn't make enough sense to warrant the price increase.

If most people were demanding better accuracy than what we're delivering, and I saw other brands delivering it, at a higher price, believe me, I'd be rushing to deliver it, too. I'm always open to the market persuading me I should improve the product if it means I can raise the price.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Doc, that's Tapatalk Pro on Android?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I am genuinely surprised at the number of anonymous a-holes on a watch forum. It was expected on car forums, as everyone was trying to be faster. Here it makes no sense.
> 
> I agree with you. I did not grow up in a "let's talk this out" community


WUS has its share. From what I've seen, other watch forums have more than their share. WUS is bumper-cars. The other forums range from mere demolition derby to full-on Thunderdome.

I don't even want to look at Facebook sometimes. The level of d-baggery on display defies measurement using conventional scales and metrics. The only thing that's saved some folks from the beating of a lifetime is being separated by a continent or ocean.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Doc, that's Tapatalk Pro on Android?


Yep.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> WUS has its share. From what I've seen, other watch forums have more than their share. WUS is bumper-cars. The other forums range from mere demolition derby to full-on Thunderdome.
> 
> I don't even want to look at Facebook sometimes. The level of d-baggery on display defies measurement using conventional scales and metrics. The only thing that's saved some folks from the beating of a lifetime is being separated by a continent or ocean.


FB groups killed most regional forums (mine included), but I do miss them. Being regional people were occasionally reminded that their e-persona was not anonymous, and the other users were close to home. Completely different experience.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)




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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

If you put a million chimps in a room full of keyboards…

There might be Shakespeare in there, but there’s a whole lot of not-Shakespeare.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Don't have the Tapatalk VIP so one at a time we go
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't have VIP either but I can load multiple images on one response, I just have to load them one at a time before posting.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> WUS has its share. From what I've seen, other watch forums have more than their share. WUS is bumper-cars. The other forums range from mere demolition derby to full-on Thunderdome.
> 
> I don't even want to look at Facebook sometimes. The level of d-baggery on display defies measurement using conventional scales and metrics. The only thing that's saved some folks from the beating of a lifetime is being separated by a continent or ocean.


What scares me more is that people have started to get used to behaving this way online and are now translating this behaviour to real life! I am coming across more people being aholes in real life now than ever before, especially in my kids generation. They are growing up with social media as their lifestyle and so think that is how you can behave to everyone.

It used to be that you got annoyed by something, cursed to yourself at the time, and then went home to vent to your family or friends. Now we seem to be hearing about "Karen's" ranting in public all the time.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> I don't have VIP either but I can load multiple images on one response, I just have to load them one at a time before posting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Well it stops me and pitches me vip

I can load up the browser on my phone but I figure in a thread closing in on 9k posts it don't matter

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

I do everything via the browser. I think apps are evil. But I'm a paranoid IT guy.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Here's another pet peeve...
> 
> If you're not willing to say something to someone's face, in person, in real life, in the real world, within arm's reach, where you might get punched for saying it, don't say it to someone on the internet.
> 
> ...


Preach! I grew up in a time (I'm 34), in KY, where it was common to be punched directly in the face for saying things like I see said online with reckless disregard. I've been spoken to on here in just such a way over something someone simply disagreed with me about that had it been in person, there would have been no rational conversation to be had at that point. Blew me away, because I actually tried to be civil, something lost in our society it would seem these days. The keyboard warrior is indeed a funny thing. I don't say anything online that I wouldn't to someone's face either, but I'd venture to say that most people who talk down to others or are disrespectful in general online wouldn't be willing to speak to someone like that in person for fear of being put in their place. It's amusing and annoying.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Mediocre said:


> I am genuinely surprised at the number of anonymous a-holes on a watch forum. It was expected on car forums, as everyone was trying to be faster. Here it makes no sense.
> 
> I agree with you. I did not grow up in a "let's talk this out" community


Me either. I grew up in a rural community where it was let's settle it with our fists. Consequently, people have a much higher propensity towards being kind and respectful unless you genuinely have a severe problem with someone, and then, there is little crap talk. The fists just start flying. Oddly enough, differences here are actually settled that way. Most fights I've ever seen or been involved in, ended in a hand shake and whatever problem there was, was settled, win or lose.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

Facebook is evil, I closed my account there a while back.

Watch related content: I've got this one incoming shortly...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Ride, Captain, Ride, with your mystery Swift&#8230;


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

The bracelet and case are a step up from my steinhart that was $610. It's a pretty solid step up too, the depth and detail in the endlinks vs the just flat of the steinhart along with the case finishing vs the full polished sides of the steinhart. I'd say the clasp is better too. I like the bezel much more than the ceramic one, the dlc coating shows the markings and the color better as it's not reflecting the sunlight. In some lighting conditions it can be a bit much with all the polished parts, the bright sunburst dial and the ceramic.









I love that you offer no dates, as I get multiple watches I like having more no dates, easier to throw on and set the time if you don't wear it for a while and usually I prefer the balanced look of the dial

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> FB groups killed most regional forums (mine included), but I do miss them. Being regional people were occasionally reminded that their e-persona was not anonymous, and the other users were close to home. Completely different experience.


Ah, regional groups.

True story...

I was invited to join a local FB group called "Delco Happy Hour" ("Delco" being short for "Delaware County", where I grew up, and still live, sort of). The group was full of jokers, but apparently also a few legit junkies, real creeps, and over-the-top "Karens".

People posting pics of themselves drinking led to others posting pics of them shooting up (apparently, I never saw it). Women were apparently being harassed, and guys were getting catfished. It wasn't long, and the group not very big, when people started reporting each others' posts to Facebook for violating community standards.

Predictably, someone started another group, "Delco Happier Hour", which was fun for a while, until the same thing happened again, and again, and again, prompting the formation of yet more groups, each claiming to be even happier than the one before it, and with many adding some variation of "No Karens".

Away from the group, I'd been one of about 8 friends from Delco, in a never-ending messenger exchange, wherein we traded jokes, barbs, rants, etc.

I saw the writing on the wall with all the Delco Happy Hour groups, so as a goof, I created a private group for us, calling it "Delco Happiest Hour". But then one of the guys pointed out that yet another Delco Group had formed, claiming it was the happiest hour.

Well, I wasn't having it. I renamed our group (I swear this is true), "F**k all Delco Happy Hours, and all the Karens in Them". Our group was private, and to get in, you had to be invited by another member, and swear that you had a sense of humor, and that no matter what anyone posted, you wouldn't report it.

Guys in the group would fight over the privilege of telling someone who asked to join the group that they couldn't get in. Bunch of savages.

It lasted about a year before Facebook just shut the whole thing down, but not before everyone in the group had gotten a temporary FB ban for something they'd posted to that group.

Now we just stick to the private messenger exchange with most of the same people, but I had to mute notifications, so that my phone isn't chirping every three seconds for something stupid, which is pretty much everything said in that exchange.



Omegafanboy said:


> What scares me more is that people have started to get used to behaving this way online and are now translating this behaviour to real life! I am coming across more people being aholes in real life now than ever before, especially in my kids generation. They are growing up with social media as their lifestyle and so think that is how you can behave to everyone.
> 
> It used to be that you got annoyed by something, cursed to yourself at the time, and then went home to vent to your family or friends. Now we seem to be hearing about "Karen's" ranting in public all the time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


And yet, I'm surprised that kids today seem to get into fights less than we did at their age, before social media. I'm sure they're all being just as rude to each other online, even if the person they're speaking to is known to them, and not far away.

It seems that mouthiness doesn't carry nearly the same level of risk it once did. I weep for the future.



MrDisco99 said:


> I do everything via the browser. I think apps are evil. But I'm a paranoid IT guy.


That reminds me of something funny I saw someone post to FB within the last few days.

It was a comparison between a tech enthusiast, bragging about how "wired" everything is, from their home to their car to their wrist, and a tech professional, who claimed to have no connected technology in his home, except for a printer, next to which he kept a gun, just in case the printer started making noises he didn't recognize.

It definitely made me think.



cghorr01 said:


> Me either. I grew up in a rural community where it was let's settle it with our fists. Consequently, people have a much higher propensity towards being kind and respectful unless you genuinely have a severe problem with someone, and then, there is little crap talk. The fists just start flying. Oddly enough, differences here are actually settled that way. Most fights I've ever seen or been involved in, ended in a hand shake and whatever problem there was, was settled, win or lose.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


This. After almost every fistfight, I'd end up being friends, or at least friendly with my opponent. At the very least, we found something resembling mutual respect. And with very few exceptions, the first fight we had was also the last.

When I compare that to the ones I never fought, who simply ran their mouths, I never got there with them - no respect, no settling of our differences, etc. The guys who constantly run their mouths online, knowing their anonymity and physical distance keep them safe, are beneath contempt.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

That Delco group story is hilarious and believable. It also reminds me why I deleted my FB years ago. Now I have group texts I have to keep notifications off for lol

I suddenly find myself curious how many groups on WUS have private group conversations (what private messages were renamed as) for similar purpose. There must be some

The "Rolex is better than your face" conversation group.....the "Rolex is overpriced terrible " conversation group....the "microbrand ride or die " conversation group

They either exist...or they should


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

I think the green rubber strap steinhart recently released for the 39mm will be pretty slick. Plus I won't be caught comparing bracelets. Maximum green










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Just the detailing alone seems worth it to me, plus articulated links vs non

The steinhart has a display case-back with a prettied up movement and signed rotor.

Maybe we can demand doc does this? Along with everything else. Maybe get him to run an agility course on our behalf?

Reading this thread I don't think that's his style and I think I'd get a chuckle out of a decorative movement and rotor.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Yep.


So weird. Maybe I'll try downloading it for s&g but truthfully, I like how I'm interacting with the forum now.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Just two words, “drilled lugs”.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Anyone need a custom digital gas monitoring system for their fallout shelter? I'll get ya a great price. It'll even talk to ya in a sexy Kiwi accent.

Swiftsure not included.









Edit: I dont wanna hear you namby pamby desk jockies(divers?) complaining about how hot it is outside. This is the ambient temp on my shop floor, in the shade, with a fan blowing right at me.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Was just browsing through the NTH parts/accessories page and saw the one-off burgundy bezel. Now I want to make myself a Barracuda v2 Black Bay Red homage.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> That reminds me of something funny I saw someone post to FB within the last few days.
> 
> It was a comparison between a tech enthusiast, bragging about how "wired" everything is, from their home to their car to their wrist, and a tech professional, who claimed to have no connected technology in his home, except for a printer, next to which he kept a gun, just in case the printer started making noises he didn't recognize.


That's pretty accurate. I went into this field because I was an enthusiast. I used to think being a tech professional was just the next level of enthusiast. Boy was I wrong. I'm not an enthusiast anymore.

I actually do work with people who have Alexa, Ring, Nest, the whole nine... I think they're nuts. None of them work in Infosec.



TheBearded said:


> Edit: I dont wanna hear you namby pamby desk jockies(divers?) complaining about how hot it is outside. This is the ambient temp on my shop floor, in the shade, with a fan blowing right at me.
> View attachment 16025802


Eww...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> So weird. Maybe I'll try downloading it for s&g but truthfully, I like how I'm interacting with the forum now.


I like how I'm interacting too. I think whatever any of us does, we get used to it, and want to keep it, which is why we hate periodic updates to forum software or apps.

When WUS went through a major update, I remember everyone hated it. I tried to find the silver linings in it. Now, I barely notice the differences, I've gotten so used to the new layout and functionality.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> That's pretty accurate. I went into this field because I was an enthusiast. I used to think being a tech professional was just the next level of enthusiast. Boy was I wrong. I'm not an enthusiast anymore.
> 
> I actually do work with people who have Alexa, Ring, Nest, the whole nine... I think they're nuts. None of them work in Infosec.
> 
> Eww...


I've grudgingly accepted the fact that Google is monitoring everything I do on the web, regardless of what device I use, or precautions I take, and that in all likelihood, the Chinese are too, since every device I use was made there.

But that's where I draw the line. I refuse to let Alexa or any other voice-activated connected device invade our home. I try to remember to turn off my phone's blue tooth, wifi, and location tracking when I leave the house. I try to toggle off all the little app settings that deal with passive monitoring of my phone's mic.

But I know that no matter what small precautions I take, there's no "going off the grid" so long as I'm connected to the degree I am.

So, to all the NSA / CIA / FBI snitches keeping tabs on me - suck it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a little pro-tip for everyone...

If you contact a company for support, and they reply with a set of instructions you need to go through, call it troubleshooting, or whatever, before they can really roll up their sleeves and dig into your problem, follow the damned instructions. 

Don't ignore the message, then come back nine months later, pretending like you never contacted them before, never got the instructions, and demanding they drop everything to fix your problem.

Yes, this is a true story. It happens at least once or twice a year. The thing is, there's always something in the message, or the person's name, or the nature of their complaint, or their tone, or something in their syntax, that triggers the memory. It takes 10 seconds for us to find the past exchange(s), and the guy trying to pull this crap just increasingly looks like a jerk.

I don't care if the guy changes his email address, or alters the name, whatever. I'll remember the previous exchange, and I'll find it. Mark my words. If it takes me 10 minutes, rather than 10 seconds, I will find it.

It takes five seconds to demagnetize a watch. It takes five minutes to apply some thread-locker to a bracelet screw. Don't kill more time than that, for both of us, refusing to accept the self-help solution we've provided, or going through the troubleshooting we've asked you to do. 

We're never going to just roll over and say, "fine, just send it back here, and we'll fix it for you," if we can't identify an actual, honest-to-goodness "problem".


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Decided to pull all my NTH and L&H watches out for a family group photo.

I sold my gilt Amphion, and was hoping to get a one off DLC Amphion to add to the collection but that seems to have vanished.

I've got the gen 1 and gen 2 bracelets and the BOP bracelet. I kind of like the gen 1 a little more as it appears more classic and utilitarian.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

MrDisco99 said:


> I actually do work with people who have Alexa, Ring, Nest, the whole nine... I think they're nuts. None of them work in Infosec.


Yep, no smart home here (thus ERCOT couldn't change my thermostat during last heat wave), no RING nonsense, no Alexa, and no Samsung TVs&#8230;among other no spy technology things. I'm sure big techs spying somehow, but not just going to hand it to them&#8230;if I can prevent it.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> It takes five seconds to demagnetize a watch. It takes five minutes to apply some thread-locker to a bracelet screw. Don't kill more time than that, for both of us, refusing to accept the self-help solution we've provided, or going through the troubleshooting we've asked you to do.


id prefer a solution i can be walked thruough. Sending something back is a big pain in the ass for everyone


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Here's a little pro-tip for everyone...
> 
> If you contact a company for support, and they reply with a set of instructions you need to go through, call it troubleshooting, or whatever, before they can really roll up their sleeves and dig into your problem, follow the damned instructions.
> 
> ...


Are any demagnetizers better than others? Serious question&#8230;


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Are any demagnetizers better than others? Serious question&#8230;


You need nothing beyond the blue box with the red button on Amazon/eBay, etc.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Are any demagnetizers better than others? Serious question&#8230;


I honestly don't know. I don't own one, and don't know what type Dan has in his shop.

I've heard the $12 degaussers sold online work well enough, albeit, I've also read comments from peeps saying they sometimes require 2-3 attempts.

I've never tried it myself, but I'm pretty sure that plopping your watch onto one of those anti-theft-device de-activation pads at checkout counters of stores like Home Depot for a few seconds will work, too, as the anti-theft devices work off magnetism.

One of my watches would have to be running REALLY fast or REALLY slow for me to notice, my wearing habits are so odd. It's super-unusual for me to be wearing the same watch for more than a few hours at a time, for more than 2 days in a row.


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Yep, no smart home here (thus ERCOT couldn't change my thermostat during last heat wave), no RING nonsense, no Alexa, and no Samsung TVs&#8230;among other no spy technology things. I'm sure big techs spying somehow, but not just going to hand it to them&#8230;if I can prevent it.


Don't want to scare anyone but you probably have devices with Zigbee at home. In a nutshell, Xfinity would know what devices (mainly IoT) you have like an Amazon Echo or wireless cameras and "smart" switches or plugs.

In the word of watches when implemented, it could mean your watch is synced every day when you wake up so you don't have to set the time.

/end random blabber


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This question about the inspiration for the Tropics, and by extension, their homageness level, seems to be popping up across multiple channels this week, so I guess I need to answer definitively...

Conceptually, they're inspired by EPSA-cased "compressor" diving watches produced / popular from the mid-50's to the mid-'70's.

The Tropics' case design takes its general shape from EPSA compressor cases with straight lugs, as seen on the Hamilton Cape-Horn and other vintage examples of that style, like the IWC Aquatimers, but we added a little modern touch with the chamfered surface of the lugs.

The images below are reference images I pulled from the web as we were starting the design, to be used as references of what I wanted for the final product...












































































As you can see, and will continue to see - the compressor divers of that era borrowed liberally from each other, with their designs. Not just the cases, but the dials and handsets, too.

As for the dials / handsets of the Azores and Antilles...

The straight baton markers, blunt-tipped & tapered hands, and the original colorways of the v.1 Antilles (black, white, blue, and "champagne") were inspired by many of the same models which inspired the Tropics' cases - the Hamilton Cape Horn, the IWC Aquatimer, and other models with similar looks.

For the Azores, the sources of inspiration were more varied, as many compressors of the day had 3-6-9-12 numbering schemes of various sorts, broadarrow and other similar handsets, and were a bit more funky / less conservative compared to the Cape Horns and Aquatimers.

We experimented with square / triangle number blocks and various shapes for the other markers. Aaron created unique fonts for the primary (3-6-9-12) numbering (also seen on the Tikuna), as well as the 1-12 on the Antilles bezels.


































































Our bracelet and strap choices also followed from what we liked of what we saw.

For the v.1's, we opted for the more common Beads-of-Rice style bracelet. For the v.2's, I wanted something a little less common, and a little less "fussy".

















When someone asks "what is the Antilles or Azores based on", it's not an easy question to answer in 25 words or less.

For the guy who just wants the reader's digest version, there's an explanation / description (screen shot below) on the product collection page of the website.

For the guy who insists on more detail, there's a fairly detailed blog post, also on our website.

Are they "homages"? Are they "original"? If there's going to be an argument about it, I don't want to participate.

Show me the model that looks EXACTLY like the Antilles or Azores. I don't think there is one. People tend to see similarities to whatever they're already familiar with - the Eterna Kontiki, The Oris 65, whatever. To me, that's just confirmation bias, not proof that we were taking inspiration from one model, specifically.

Did we borrow liberally from IWC, JLC, Hamilton, and others? Sure, but across the board, we also did some things differently, and mixed things up a bit.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> This question about the inspiration for the Tropics, and by extension, their homageness level, seems to be popping up across multiple channels this week, so I guess I need to answer definitively...
> 
> Conceptually, they're inspired by EPSA-cased "compressor" diving watches produced / popular from the mid-50's to the mid-'70's.
> 
> ...


I'll just thank you a million times over for NOT following the date protocols on your inspirational pieces!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Doing the "NTH" thing with design isn't as easy as many seem to think.

I spend a lot of time looking at vintage stuff, in excruciating detail, gathering reference images, then going back through it all, over and over again, looking for all the details we want to keep the same, because "Nod to History", and thinking about ways we can do things differently, or preferably, better, because "Nth degree".

Like I said, my views on homages tend to stay within the shades of gray. I think of what we produce as "faithful homages", in the literal / historical sense of "homage" (tribute), and "faithful" (getting the right details right), but don't like it when what we do is dismissed as "just an _homage_" in a pejorative way (read: "copy", "knockoff", or "barely legal replica"), as if we're just sending some images cribbed from the web to our factory, and having them slap our logo on the product.

Every model - we draw every line of the case. We figure out every dimension, of every aspect, every angle, every handset.

Aaron obsesses over the proportions, typefaces and kerning. Rusty spends days tweaking the lines and angles of a case. I'll spend days, sometimes weeks scouring suppliers' catalogs looking for the perfect hands. I'll show friends five different shades of "orange" to pick the perfect one. I'll have my factory send me a half dozen dial samples with different colors and finishes, to try to match the bezels. We'll experiment with different lume colors in combination with different dial and bezel colors.

It would actually be a lot easier if I just told my factory to make me a 1:1 design copy of something else, and just slap our logo on it. I could fire Rusty and Aaron, and save myself a lot of aggravation in the design process. We'd probably sell more watches, too, despite all the additional hate we'd get from the anti-homage crowd.

It used to drive me up the wall to have one group dismiss what we're doing as completely unoriginal, and yet also have another group complain that what we're doing isn't close enough to something else.

Don't care. So over all the online argle-bargle. Buy it or don't. Give me money, I give you watch. No debate needed.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah, no Instagram, Messenger, Twitter, etc. Never had any of them and deleted Facebook about seven or eight years ago. Don't order anything from Amazon and never had any of those smart speakers. No connected devices. At all. No Netflix, no Hulu, no Prime, no Disney. None of that junk. I do have an Nvidia Shield TV. I permanently disabled the microphone in the remote. 

Installed an old school electromagnetic kWh meter when I moved in and have a spare one. I have no smart or connected devices and nothing that a smart meter could communicate with if I had one. 

I root my smart phones, disabling or deleting the bloatware or spyware that comes with it. I replace the stock apps like the dialer, calendar, contacts, email, gallery, file manager, text messaging, etc. with open source applications that I can vet personally. This usually means I don't have the best or fastest phone but once you clear them out and use proper lightweight apps, they're perfectly fine. 

I use encrypted SMS and encrypted email apps to send/receive encrypted SMS/calls and emails. I do still maintain a normal email account for routine communication. I've got more than a few of my contacts to use Signal at least. True encryption and the inherent safety is only realized when all parties are using the same, unfortunately.

Procured my own cable modem and router and run a VPN with a kill switch 24/7 hard coded on that router I enforce wireless MAC restrictions and use wired network connections for my "static" devices when required. I additionally use software based VPNs with kill switches on my mobile devices 24/7. 

Is it perfect? Hell no. I have no illusions of absolute safety. I don't have the time, money, or additional resources to fully combat these tyrannical and persecutory governments or other bad actors.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

i had asked doc cause if i like a product thats an homage then if i buy again i may support an original or more original design. 

All in all its really not an important question i suppose as im buying what i like to look at, made well, good water resist and the rest are just details


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Well im very very happy with the design work you put in on the v2 barracuda, its as good or better than I hoped for.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

the tropics strike me as original, reminiscent of a time is far far to wide open and not even close to being homage


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

The lume is fantastic, I think I prefer the c3

This is just from wearing it on my wrist no extra light or anything before the pic. Home from work and playing with the dog

Love the lume in the between night and day times









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

The dog is the least impressed with the pauses to take these shots









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> The dog is the least impressed with the pauses to take these shots
> 
> 
> 
> ...


? yep, mine are like that too&#8230;


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> yep, mine are like that too&#8230;


There's very important tennis balls to be thrown endlessly

Summer sucks, not able to get really tired before the heat takes it out of him.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> There's very important tennis balls to be thrown endlessly
> 
> Summer sucks, not able to get really tired before the heat takes it out of him.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We have a couple month old puppy that really needs to burn off tons of energy in the afternoon and evening and this heat has been a challenge to be sure. We've resorted to setting up a makeshift play area indoors, which is not quite as effective but at least we can get some more zoomies out of her that way.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

If it's OK to stay on the tech thruway a little longer, I need some help. I got an old iPod (no Bluetooth) with about 750 songs on it. I want to convert the ACC files to MP3 so I can transfer them to my Android phone and then play them via Bluetooth on my car's media center. Need recommendations for the following:
ACC to MP3 convertor
MP3 Player for Android
Please consider am a Baby Boomer, tech aware but not savvy, and I sure as hell don't want to lose the original ACC files. I'm thinking it would be a lot easier to just fly in *josiahg52 *and pay him to do it. I thought my head would explode trying to understand everything he has done.

OK, back to watches. I want that JLC in Doc's 'vintage pics' post. Wouldn't mind the first Hamilton shown either.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> If it's OK to stay on the tech thruway a little longer, I need some help. I got an old iPod (no Bluetooth) with about 750 songs on it. I want to convert the ACC files to MP3 so I can transfer them to my Android phone and then play them via Bluetooth on my car's media center. Need recommendations for the following:
> ACC to MP3 convertor
> MP3 Player for Android
> Please consider am a Baby Boomer, tech aware but not savvy, and I sure as hell don't want to lose the original ACC files. I'm thinking it would be a lot easier to just fly in *josiahg52 *and pay him to do it. I thought my head would explode trying to understand everything he has done.
> ...


I actually like the second Hamilton Doc showed!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Edit: I dont wanna hear you namby pamby desk jockies(divers?) complaining about how hot it is outside. This is the ambient temp on my shop floor, in the shade, with a fan blowing right at me.
> View attachment 16025802


Preach. It's so hot in our shop that I'm pretty sure thermometers are prohibited by management. Here's a snap of the outside temp and the "feels like" from the other day.










-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Anyone need a custom digital gas monitoring system for their fallout shelter? I'll get ya a great price. It'll even talk to ya in a sexy Kiwi accent.
> 
> Swiftsure not included.
> View attachment 16025776
> ...


Iunno what the ambient temp is in Louisiana but it sucks every year. And we've only just got started the real heat ain't even hit yet.

You can post the ambient temperature from hell itself and I still hate summer here

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> Preach. It's so hot in our shop that I'm pretty sure thermometers are prohibited by management. Here's a snap of the outside temp and the "feels like" from the other day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy **** man small world. I live in slidell

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

RmacMD said:


> If it's OK to stay on the tech thruway a little longer, I need some help. I got an old iPod (no Bluetooth) with about 750 songs on it. I want to convert the ACC files to MP3 so I can transfer them to my Android phone and then play them via Bluetooth on my car's media center. Need recommendations for the following:
> ACC to MP3 convertor
> MP3 Player for Android
> Please consider am a Baby Boomer, tech aware but not savvy, and I sure as hell don't want to lose the original ACC files. I'm thinking it would be a lot easier to just fly in *josiahg52 *and pay him to do it. I thought my head would explode trying to understand everything he has done.
> ...


For a very basic mp3 player, I like this one:









Simple Music Player - Apps on Google Play


Clean music player with a customizable widget, sleep timer, battery saver




play.google.com





This developer also has other apps that are very nice. Do note that their player is basic but functional which is what I want and why I use more than a few of their other apps.

One thing that is annoying is that I can't (re)order my playlist tracks in an existing playlist. If you build a playlist from scratch, it'll play in the order you added them. It's a feature they may add as they seem to improve their apps. As near as I can tell, it plays my songs with the .mp3 and .m4a extensions so if you can get them off your iPod, this player should work. If they're in a library on your computer, I'm very sure it'll work, no conversion necessary.

VLC is another option. Very robust and many features.





__





Official download of VLC media player, the best Open Source player - VideoLAN







www.videolan.org





I've used some of the free converting apps in the past for one or two offs here and there but never an entire library.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Completely unoriginal watch which is yet too different from anything that has already been done checking in. What a disappointment this is. Just look at the gilt relief dial, it's such a gimmick that everyone's doing it now. /s


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I grew up as an Air Force brat in Biloxi Mississippi, so I’ve got an immunity to heat and humidity in my DNA. This has served me well for all the time I’ve spent in Panama, India, Middle East. The thermometer in the desert of Qatar used to read 120 degrees F but the heat Index would top out at 145.

All the equipment I worked on had to be rated to operate in an ambient air temp of 138 degrees F. That’s 55 C for the metrics.

So I’m the guy wearing a jacket now when its 75 F.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Swiftly got to ride the big green machine today!


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

NWBD! (New Watch Band Day)

Crown & Buckle Supreme NATOs. Plus a Thresher with a new personality!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Just look at that dial!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

HammyMan37 said:


> I actually like the second Hamilton Doc showed!


I expect no less from HAMMYman!!


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> I expect no less from HAMMYman!!


I may biased?!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

HammyMan37 said:


> I may biased?!
> View attachment 16028718
> View attachment 16028726
> 
> ...


I've got that exact Khaki Air Race. 
Doesnt see enough wrist time.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

If A = B and B = C, does not A = C?

A = NTH watch named after Thresher submarine
B = Thresher submarine 
C = Thresher submarine named after Thresher shark

All info below from Wikipedia.

The second *USS Thresher (SSN-593)* was the lead boat of her class of nuclear-powered attack submarines in the United States Navy. She was the U.S. Navy's second submarine to be named after the thresher shark.

*Thresher sharks* are large lamniform sharks of the family *Alopiidae* found in all temperate and tropical oceans of the world; the family contains three extant species, all within the genus_*Alopias*_.

All three thresher shark species have been listed as vulnerable to extinction by the World Conservation Union since 2007 (IUCN).[2]All are popular sport fish.[_citation needed_] In addition, they are hunted for their meat, livers (for shark liver oil), skin (for leather), and fins for use in shark-fin soup.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

No one asked, but this gets my vote for most versatile of the subs&#8230;








&#8230; most versatile of my 6-pack anyhow.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

3-1-1 said:


> No one asked, but this gets my vote for most versatile of the subs&#8230;
> View attachment 16029392
> 
> &#8230; most versatile of my 6-pack anyhow.


But why so?


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Lab4Us said:


> But why so?


It's just so neutral with the silver and gray. 
Can pair with any strap. ANY!


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Lab4Us said:


> If A = B and B = C, does not A = C?
> 
> A = NTH watch named after Thresher submarine
> B = Thresher submarine
> ...





josiahg52 said:


> Wearing this and thinking about its namesake, the USS _Thresher _(SSN 593).
> 
> View attachment 15818097
> 
> ...


That's why it's special to me.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

That sexy Gilt Relief dial Amphion is my favorite sub hands down!


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> If A = B and B = C, does not A = C?
> 
> A = NTH watch named after Thresher submarine
> B = Thresher submarine
> ...


If you pull math into this thread again I will find a way to give you a one week ban from the affordable forum.

Gave me a damn headache. Too early for that


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> If you pull math into this thread again I will find a way to give you a one week ban from the affordable forum.
> 
> Gave me a damn headache. Too early for that


Godfrey

Before anyone asks, no. I do not have a way to ban him. Please do not tell him though, because he might math again


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> If you pull math into this thread again I will find a way to give you a one week ban from the affordable forum.
> 
> Gave me a damn headache. Too early for that


So then you're saying don't want the median and average accuracy of my NTH watches?


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> So then you're saying don't want the median and average accuracy of my NTH watches?


That's it


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm not a white-dialed watch guy but I think I might be an NTH white-dialed watch guy.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

josiahg52 said:


> I'm not a white-dialed watch guy but I think I might be an NTH white-dialed watch guy.


Come to the light, my son.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Yep, there's something about a white-dial NTH................










Cheerz and have a great weekend y'all............


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

A watch with a view










its a shame my camera skills cannot get both this view and the watch in the same frame though.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Ragl said:


> Yep, there's something about a white-dial NTH................
> 
> View attachment 16030879
> 
> ...


That dial is near perfect. I think if the date window were framed there would be no complaints.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Another steamy summer morning down here in Florida. Been wearing this guy for the last week or so:










So far this year it's pretty much been exclusively either my Speedmaster or this. It's noteworthy that for me, the AVG competes neck-in-neck for wrist time with an iconic watch that costs 10x.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Also from Florida, in today's edition of "$4!7's getting out of hand", at the Rolex Boutique in the Orlando Mall at Millenia, they're stocking the display cases with "exhibition only" watches - watch cases that have no movements in them. Because they've been sold out of actual watches for so long. What's more ridiculous: having a boutique with no actual watches to sell, or having a store with no watches to sell but a bunch of fake display models just to maintain brand interest / store traffic?


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> Also from Florida, in today's edition of "$4!7's getting out of hand", at the Rolex Boutique in the Orlando Mall at Millenia, they're stocking the display cases with "exhibition only" watches - watch cases that have no movements in them. Because they've been sold out of actual watches for so long. What's more ridiculous: having a boutique with no actual watches to sell, or having a store with no watches to sell but a bunch of fake display models just to maintain brand interest / store traffic?


Wild

I wanna grand seiko with that spring drive one day fortunately

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

tropics, TROPICS, who said Tropics?

Last shot to show how NATO band wears on wrist (at least Crown & Buckless NATO Supreme).

lol, no idea why it says sensitive content. My same old forearm!




















__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Children under 18 should not be allowed to see this watch...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Well that made even less sense without the original post above it soooo&#8230;.










Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I think we've accidentally infringed on the rules, posts have disappeared. 
Well no bad intent was meant by anyone, and it was all done in innocence.

Here's a picture of my cuda'


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Come to the light, my son.
> View attachment 16030476
> View attachment 16030478
> View attachment 16030479


How are you getting on with that lovely Tourby of yours?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> How are you getting on with that lovely Tourby of yours?











Still love staring at both the enamel dial and blued hands as much as the top grade behind the caseback. It runs steady at +/- 1spd depending on PR.

Still waiting on the strap I ordered from Martu, and I reached out to Patrik from Clover. He's got one coming my way that I gave him a general idea, but told him to use a little artistic freedom on it.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Well I see the post fairy visited and took our baby teeth, hope someone received money under their pillow lol



TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16031772
> 
> Still love staring at both the enamel dial and blued hands as much as the top grade behind the caseback. It runs steady at +/- 1spd depending on PR.
> 
> ...


I like that!! Please share thoughts once it is on!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16031772
> 
> Still love staring at both the enamel dial and blued hands as much as the top grade behind the caseback. It runs steady at +/- 1spd depending on PR.
> 
> ...


I have a similar one from Patik. It's on my older Zelos Helmsman gen 1. It's lived on that watch since lol.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Well I see the post fairy visited and took our baby teeth, hope someone received money under their pillow lol
> 
> I like that!! Please share thoughts once it is on!


It's my fourth from him. He makes a quality product, and for the price, I don't think he can be beat.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Speaking of straps, is there an aftermarket strap available from NTH for the tropics? Asking for my Antilles


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Speaking of straps, is there an aftermarket strap available from NTH for the tropics? Asking for my Antilles


We sell the tropic straps on our site.

Wasn't there one in the travel case with the watch?


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> We sell the tropic straps on our site.
> 
> Wasn't there one in the travel case with the watch?


There was, just asking about opportunities to spend $$$ with NTH sir!


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> I think we've accidentally infringed on the rules, posts have disappeared.
> Well no bad intent was meant by anyone, and it was all done in innocence.
> 
> Here's a picture of my cuda'
> View attachment 16031710


cant lie, that color is growing on me



Lab4Us said:


> tropics, TROPICS, who said Tropics?
> 
> Last shot to show how NATO band wears on wrist (at least Crown & Buckless NATO Supreme).
> 
> ...


so good looking


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> There was, just asking about opportunities to spend $$$ with NTH sir!


I got nothing else on offer at the moment.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ok peeps

Any recommendations on the best rum to pair with the Antilles dark rum?


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Mediocre said:


> Ok peeps
> 
> Any recommendations on the best rum to pair with the Antilles dark rum?


There is only one Sir....Ron Zacapa Centenario 23 Solera Gran Reserva rum. On ice, no more.. that's it.









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I just speed scrolled through many weeks of content to catch up - pausing to take in the V2 Sub pix. I have to admit, the new bezel appeals to me more than I thought it would. And this jumped out at me which really piqued my interest.



davek35 said:


> V2 wears and feels a little smaller.


If an all new V2 design came out that knocked my socks off, I might convince myself to try that. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with my current V1 Subs having stalked and acquired most of my favorites. I don't see a clear pathway to my owning a V2.

Apologies if this has been addressed. Any chance empty cases might become available for sale for some DIY warranty voiding fun?

I'll show myself out.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

DevilRay catching the sun nicely.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

3WR said:


> I just speed scrolled through many weeks of content to catch up - pausing to take in the V2 Sub pix. I have to admit, the new bezel appeals to me more than I thought it would. And this jumped out at me which really piqued my interest.
> 
> If an all new V2 design came out that knocked my socks off, I might convince myself to try that. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with my current V1 Subs having stalked and acquired most of my favorites. I don't see a clear pathway to my owning a V2.
> 
> ...


Pretty much, same here... altgough I have far fewer NTH subs. A Scorpéne White or some Nacken Modern flavor might do it for me, though...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> I just speed scrolled through many weeks of content to catch up - pausing to take in the V2 Sub pix. I have to admit, the new bezel appeals to me more than I thought it would. And this jumped out at me which really piqued my interest.
> 
> If an all new V2 design came out that knocked my socks off, I might convince myself to try that. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with my current V1 Subs having stalked and acquired most of my favorites. I don't see a clear pathway to my owning a V2.
> 
> ...





mconlonx said:


> Pretty much, same here... altgough I have far rewer NTH subs. A Scorpéne White or some Nacken Modern flavor might do it for me, though...


I'm pretty much in the same boat. I love everything about my Swifty after adjusting to the differences in its bezel(which once adjusted to, I prefer, tbh) compared to my other NTH subs. So I dont see why I wouldnt love everything about a v2 sub.

_But_. I'd want an all new dial design. I'm all for Doc making and selling what he deems best for him and his. So I'm fine waiting for now.

Now if empty cases are on the table...? I'd love to slap my Tikuna in one. The Nazarios stay as they are.


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

The new look bezel, smaller case, and crown guards are the 3 reasons I went with the V2. This is the first watch with crown guards I’ve owned for a good while. I do like them... smaller and tidy compared to many.
Keeping the V1 for sure!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> The Nazarios stay as they are.


Lolz! And then there's this, where the only indication it used to be a Nazario is the WG engraved case back...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Lolz! And then there's this, where the only indication it used to be a Nazario is the WG engraved case back...
> 
> View attachment 16032857


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

3WR said:


> I just speed scrolled through many weeks of content to catch up - pausing to take in the V2 Sub pix. I have to admit, the new bezel appeals to me more than I thought it would. And this jumped out at me which really piqued my interest.
> 
> If an all new V2 design came out that knocked my socks off, I might convince myself to try that. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with my current V1 Subs having stalked and acquired most of my favorites. I don't see a clear pathway to my owning a V2.
> 
> ...


The way you have the other three with their faces down, they look ashamed


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

3WR said:


> I just speed scrolled through many weeks of content to catch up - pausing to take in the V2 Sub pix. I have to admit, the new bezel appeals to me more than I thought it would. And this jumped out at me which really piqued my interest.
> 
> If an all new V2 design came out that knocked my socks off, I might convince myself to try that. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with my current V1 Subs having stalked and acquired most of my favorites. I don't see a clear pathway to my owning a V2.
> 
> ...


I really like the Dolphin but what you've done there with the brown bezel is _really amazing_. It looks _cool_ ?
Nice collection too.


----------



## solowatch (Mar 17, 2008)

So what is the production status of NTH DevilRays?

I apologize if the answer is buried somewhere in the 437 pages, too little time to scroll through it all. I'm not 100% settled on which one between black, white or gecko, but I would like to know some approximation of availability. As of last check the USA retailer does not have *any* DevilRays in stock, and they only seem to be expecting Blue, Orange and Turquoise in August. Will there be other colors?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just 'cause I like this one.


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

solowatch said:


> So what is the production status of NTH DevilRays?
> 
> I apologize if the answer is buried somewhere in the 437 pages, too little time to scroll through it all. I'm not 100% settled on which one between black, white or gecko, but I would like to know some approximation of availability. As of last check the USA retailer does not have *any* DevilRays in stock, and they only seem to be expecting Blue, Orange and Turquoise in August. Will there be other colors?


Status is unchanged. Expected soon. Just those three colors, plus the 2 special editions for Watch Gecko in the UK.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

I am the Azores, I am the Azores, koo koo ka choo, koo koo koo ka choo&#8230;


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> I am the Azores, I am the Azores, koo koo ka choo, koo koo koo ka choo&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 16033672


That may so.... But you're also a blimmin loony.. ?

?Just kidding


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

catsteeth said:


> That may so.... But you're also a blimmin loony.. 🤨
> 
> 🤗Just kidding


Advantage of being 63!


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

A Cerberus and Orthos were recently posted in the sales section here for anyone looking for some great, early doc watches!


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> A Cerberus and Orthos were recently posted in the sales section here for anyone looking for some great, early doc watches!


Liked those. Liked the dogs. Liked the colour scheme. Even liked the Latin reference in Janus Trading. 
Rock solid watches.

I was fairly new on wus at the time and I was still working my way through all the Seikos and Orients that were so popular at the time.
Hardly see any orients on here now ?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Liked those. Liked the dogs. Liked the colour scheme. Even liked the Latin reference in Janus Trading.
> Rock solid watches.
> 
> I was fairly new on wus at the time and I was still working my way through all the Seikos and Orients that were so popular at the time.
> Hardly see any orients on here now 🤔


It wasn't Latin, or Janus.

It was Janis. Short for Janissary.









Janissary - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> It wasn't Latin, or Janus.
> 
> It was Janis. Short for Janissary.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, love learning something. I always assumed it was an ode to the roman god Janus due to the relation to time


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> It wasn't Latin, or Janus.
> 
> It was Janis. Short for Janissary.
> 
> ...


I stand corrected. I love history and historical fiction so am aware of the Janissaries.
Christian boys turned fanatical Muslims who were the ottoman shock troops. Eventually becoming a power behind the throne/bey/sultan. Much like the Praetorian Guard became the king/emporer makers behind the Roman empire.
Cool reference, that totally passed me by.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Very interesting, love learning something. I always assumed it was an ode to the roman god Janus due to the relation to time


Me too.... I think with Doc being a veteran, you just assume there's a military reference. I rather like the consistency too.


----------



## whatisk (Mar 5, 2020)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 16030445


What band is that? Looks great!

Always interested in seeing what other bands people have for their watches. I really should probably look at getting more bands for mine for a different look. Cheaper than buying more watches.


----------



## Shanghai (Feb 11, 2008)

MikeyT said:


> Just 'cause I like this one.


That's a lovely watch. Can you still buy them?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Shanghai said:


> That's a lovely watch. Can you still buy them?


Much to the dismay of many, L&H has gone the way of the dodo bird. Your only option is the used market.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Much to the dismay of many, L&H has gone the way of the dodo bird. Your only option is the used market.


In the case of that watch, it was a limited edition forum project, so Lew & Huey going away has nothing to do with it.

L&H going away really wouldn't have anything to do with it anyway. Even if L&H was still a thing, I doubt we'd still be making any of the same models.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Very interesting, love learning something. I always assumed it was an ode to the roman god Janus due to the relation to time





catsteeth said:


> I stand corrected. I love history and historical fiction so am aware of the Janissaries.
> Christian boys turned fanatical Muslims who were the ottoman shock troops. Eventually becoming a power behind the throne/bey/sultan. Much like the Praetorian Guard became the king/emporer makers behind the Roman empire.
> Cool reference, that totally passed me by.





catsteeth said:


> Me too.... I think with Doc being a veteran, you just assume there's a military reference. I rather like the consistency too.


I'm kind of an obscure history buff, especially when it comes to the rise and fall of empires, the role warriors play in society, and narratives involving reversals of fortune. I like when the arrogant oppressors get their comeuppance at the hands of the oppressed.

I liked the story of the Janissaries, especially the beginning and end-points in their arc. They went from captured Jewish and Christian slaves, pressed into military service, to become a powerful force within Ottoman society, and a major thorn in the Sultans' sides.

I liked that they made their final stand in a scene resembling the Alamo. Ultimately, they effectively became like Ronin in feudal Japan - once-noble warriors, with no allegiance to any master, dispersed throughout the middle-East.

Author William Dietrich* kicked off his Ethan Gage adventure series of novels with "Napoleon's Pyramids". In it, the main character, Gage, gets caught up in Napoleon's invasion of Northern Africa.

During that campaign, Napoleon's troops are harassed by the Mamelukes (more commonly transliterated as "Mamluk"), described as "white horse-lords" who'd taken control of Egypt - clearly the descendants of the Janissaries.









Mamluk - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Throughout history, slavery has often been among the root causes of a society's downfall, as it was with the Roman Empire. A slave class inevitably leads to a deeply-divided society, with an over-rich elite class, and a disenfranchised and downtrodden working / middle class.

Former slaves and their descendants can and usually do present persistent problems for the society which remains. There are serious consequences which arise when you separate a people from their ancestral home and history.

There was a reasoning behind my choosing of the name, having to do with the original business plan, before that plan was abandoned, and it was decided Janis would make and sell wristwatches. The biz name isn't relevant to what the business became.

*If you like historical fiction, I recommend William Dietrich. I've read the first two in the eight book Ethan Gage series, and enjoyed them both very much.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

my Amazing AVG, and my silly dog, before, and then after rolling around taking a dirt bath.. this dirt ball has very long hair and now has dirt matted all over.. ughh. the life of a dog must be glorious!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> I am the Azores, I am the Azores, koo koo ka choo, koo koo koo ka choo&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 16033672


One thing I miss about the STP movements we used in the v.1 Tropics is the placement of the date wheel on the movement. On the first of the month, the "1" in the date window would perfectly align with the white circle on the dial.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> One thing I miss about the STP movements we used in the v.1 Tropics is the placement of the date wheel on the movement. On the first of the month, the "1" in the date window would perfectly align with the white circle on the dial.
> 
> View attachment 16035151


I prefer the awesome green dial over the date location being on the line. Seems like date not centered between the two breaks in the circle, but I do realize that could be a camera position issue. The 1 right on the line just doesn't look right to me, but as they say in French, "c'est la vie" - that's life!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> I prefer the awesome green dial over the date location being on the line. Seems like date not centered between the two breaks in the circle, but I do realize that could be a camera position issue. The 1 right on the line just doesn't look right to me, but as they say in French, "c'est la vie" - that's life!


It is the camera angle in that shot.

I recall posting a different shot, same scenario (first of the month), and someone commented, "Does it come with a date?"

They completely missed the fact that the watch in the image was the with-date version, because the 1 blended in with the circle on the dial, so perfectly.


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

whatisk said:


> What band is that? Looks great!
> 
> Always interested in seeing what other bands people have for their watches. I really should probably look at getting more bands for mine for a different look. Cheaper than buying more watches.


I really can't imagine taking the cuda off it's bracelet, it's sublime and the transition from case to endlink to bracelet is just gorgeous

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> my Amazing AVG, and my silly dog, before, and then after rolling around taking a dirt bath.. this dirt ball has very long hair and now has dirt matted all over.. ughh. the life of a dog must be glorious!
> View attachment 16034949
> 
> View attachment 16034950


Super glorious, this is my malinois exploding out of a mud puddle and as you can see he is having a blast









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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Super glorious, this is my malinois exploding out of a mud puddle and as you can see he is having a blast
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Such lovable dirt balls.

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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

I'd told myself that I wouldn't buy any more watches for a while - until I got a certain project-that-I-can't-mention off the ground. Unfortunately, I subscribe to this thread...

This is just too darned nice:



















-Rusty


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> I'd told myself that I wouldn't buy any more watches for a while - until I got a certain project-that-I-can't-mention off the ground. Unfortunately, I subscribe to this thread...
> 
> This is just too darned nice:
> 
> ...


Okay, now I'm on board.

That bevel that you've caught the light with is a beautiful curve. I thought they were losing the uber cool guardless skin-diver look. But they're actually gaining a delightful sweep to the case sides.

Don't know whether it's your lighting and digital camera work, but the black on the sun-ray dial is a treat too.

Big crowns have been the trend, I'm wondering wether this is going to start a trend for still large across the diameter, but narrow across the depth. (Depth being how far it sticks out from the case).
Docs crown style has always been a big draw as far as I'm concerned.

Beautiful.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> .


To the point I must say

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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> To the point I must say
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


literally


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> I'd told myself that I wouldn't buy any more watches for a while - until I got a certain project-that-I-can't-mention off the ground. Unfortunately, I subscribe to this thread...
> 
> This is just too darned nice:
> 
> ...


oyster no date for the win. i love mine and its on the wrist today


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Okay, now I'm on board.
> 
> That bevel that you've caught the light with is a beautiful curve. I thought they were losing the uber cool guardless skin-diver look. But they're actually gaining a delightful sweep to the case sides.
> 
> ...


Fwiw, these pics were captured by the iPhone 12 with no filters added.

-Rusty

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hypothetically...

You buy a watch. When it arrives, you find the crown is somewhat hard to turn, harder than you expected, compared to another watch you have, of the same design, from the same manufacturer. How long does it take you to contact the seller?

That day? The next day? Within a few days?

Let's suppose you wait SIX FREAKING WEEKS.

Your message to the seller (six weeks later) says the crown is "is very hard to pull out and turn in both directions though, as if the o-ring is too tight", You mention that you're comparing it to another watch you have, a different version of the same model. You don't mention that it was that way on delivery.

Upon receiving your message, *six weeks* after the watch was delivered, with its vague, fairly mild description of the issue, the seller says that crown feel can vary from watch to watch, but as a courtesy, the seller is willing to have you return the watch, so that the crown can be lubricated, at no charge, and the watch returned to you afterwards, also at no charge.

The seller provides a full set of instructions for returning the watch - shipping address, things you need to know and understand, recommendations to make sure the package is shipped with tracking and insurance, expectations for turnaround time and future communication, and a one-page sheet for you to fill out with info about the problem, and your return shipping info.

The seller does not provide you with a return shipping label, primarily in light of the fact that your message was received six weeks after delivery, and the message you sent didn't mention the crown was like that on delivery, but also in light of the fact that as far as the seller knows, there's nothing wrong with the watch, other than a crown assembly which might do with a little bit of added lubrication.

Do you:

A. Spend <$20 to return the watch so the company can lubricate it for you (understanding that if there's something else going on, the watchmaker will find it, and more than likely fix it under warranty)?

B. Wait more than a month, then respond back, to suggest the company should send you a return shipping label, because you claim the complaint you have is very serious ("the crown is extremely hard to turn, it almost hurts my fingers"), and was present on delivery?

Let's assume you choose option B.

SIX FREAKING WEEKS is kind of a long time to wait before reporting the issue to the seller, no? If you wait another month, then claim it was like that from day one, and the seller became a bit skeptical about this situation, that would seem at least a little reasonable, no?

More than a month after the seller asks you to send it back, and now more than 10 weeks after the watch was delivered, when anything could have happened to the watch in the interim, you're going to argue over $20 in shipping?

Do you understand why the seller might be a little leery in this situation, and hesitant to go above and beyond with their support?

People - if you want to know how to get a brand owner to tell his watchmaker to go over the watch with a high-magnification loupe, looking for any sign of warranty-voiding abuse, this is how you do it. In this situation, the more you say, the more you push, the more attention you demand, the more skeptical we get.

If you ever find yourself in this situation, do yourself a favor - spend the $20, buy the damned shipping label, and don't screw around arguing about it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Thoughts on a basic reading comprehension test prior to purchase that directly impacts selling price?

You could charge more based on anticipated headache


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Hypothetically...
> 
> You buy a watch. When it arrives, you find the crown is somewhat hard to turn, harder than you expected, compared to another watch you have, of the same design, from the same manufacturer. How long does it take you to contact the seller?
> 
> ...


Well, personally if I can wind and set the watch, even if it feels a "tighter" than others, I'm not sending it n OR spending $20. When it gets to the point I can't wind it or set it, then you'll be seeing it. Depending on how long I've had it, I may or may not whine about shipping. &#8230;oh, and with more military time than I care to opine about, I'm pretty sure I could follow your instructions as well.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

So, I work with other watch nerds. My second child is due next month, so today my WUS coworkers ambushed me with a congratulatory gift:










Now, I know these aren't everybody's jam. But something about this particular Snoopy Marlin has always just charmed the heck out of me. I missed the bus when they came out and haven't been willing to play the secondary market game. I'm still honestly overwhelmed by the thoughtfulness of this gift and trying to process.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Thoughts on a basic reading comprehension test prior to purchase that directly impacts selling price?
> 
> You could charge more based on anticipated headache


I swear this idea keeps getting proposed - some form of intelligence test to be required prior to checking out on our site. This may be the first time the price-adjustment-based-on-stupidity twist has been added to it.

I try to be a cool dude, and run a cool business, that is cool with its customers. "It doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with the watch you got from us six weeks ago, but if you want to send it back for lubrication, we'll lubricate it, no charge, and send it back, no charge."

To me, that seems like a cool thing for us to do.

If someone brings an issue to our attention, right away, I give them the benefit of the doubt that it was present on delivery, even if it seems unlikely. I don't screw around accusing the customer of causing the problem, even if I might actually be a little suspicious about what's being reported.

Six or eight or ten weeks later? I have no idea what's been done to it since the customer got it. I'm going to have a hard time believing that we missed a crown that's so hard to turn it almost hurts your fingers in multiple rounds of QC, and that anyone would wait six weeks to mention it, if it was like that the moment he got it.

If it'll cost less than $20 to ship it back, and the company is offering to sort it out, whatever it is, why the hell would anyone screw around arguing about the $20? Surely the time spent typing those emails is worth more than $20.

It's going to cost me about $50 to have Dan lubricate it and ship it back. There might not even be a real issue. It's something most people probably wouldn't notice, much less mention, or want fixed.

I don't get why some folks seem incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> So, I work with other watch nerds. My second child is due next month, so today my WUS coworkers ambushed me with a congratulatory gift:
> 
> View attachment 16037783
> 
> ...


That's an awesome gift! Congrats!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Hypothetically...
> 
> You buy a watch. When it arrives, you find the crown is somewhat hard to turn, harder than you expected, compared to another watch you have, of the same design, from the same manufacturer. How long does it take you to contact the seller?
> 
> ...


The watches I have bought all feel different from brand to brand. For example bezel action. My current steinhart feels better but similar to my last steinhart and it feels different than my nth and different than the boldr I just sold.

They all feel good to me but which one is better?

Splitting too many hairs for me. Each watch has felt worth the money. Talking specifically bezel action they all felt really good and solid. I can see how someone could prefer one over the others and say the others don't feel good but that's subjective.

I think people set their expectations against much more expensive watches. I mean the naken and barracuda have a few reviews up comparing them directly to a black bay. There's a real want to fill that void that someone can't or doesn't want to spend the money on. While unfair I can't lie and say I don't benefit from all the pickiness cause I do. Makers trying to appeal to that crowd make it better for me but usually watches like yours, steinhart, and others get some real sharp expectations set against them

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I swear this idea keeps getting proposed - some form of intelligence test to be required prior to checking out on our site. This may be the first time the price-adjustment-based-on-stupidity twist has been added to it.
> 
> I try to be a cool dude, and run a cool business, that is cool with its customers. "It doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with the watch you got from us six weeks ago, but if you want to send it back for lubrication, we'll lubricate it, no charge, and send it back, no charge."
> 
> ...


It's cause they cut all the trees down for paper after moving to the cloud

My crown was pretty stiff unscrewing it for the first time and it's been fine since, coulda been a few things like temperature while in transit, oils, tolerances being tight, etc or a combination of things

It unscrewed smoothly but very stiff, I noticed it. And it screws back fine and it has been fine.

I bet there's more than one customer that would have been disappointed with that and it's just silly

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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I swear this idea keeps getting proposed - some form of intelligence test to be required prior to checking out on our site. This may be the first time the price-adjustment-based-on-stupidity twist has been added to it.
> 
> I try to be a cool dude, and run a cool business, that is cool with its customers. "It doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with the watch you got from us six weeks ago, but if you want to send it back for lubrication, we'll lubricate it, no charge, and send it back, no charge."
> 
> ...


In the business I've worked in: petrol stn franchisee, property management, and hospitality management. There's always a % figure of loss which is written off. Either through breakage, spoilage, out of date, theft, etc.

But you've got a new one to me. What's the % figure you have to write off for predicted loses due stupid-thick-irritating-beyond-belief-customer syndrome?
😉


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

DevilRay and a rusty old tank I found when I was out for my walk, parked right next to an equally rust old Morris Minor ( I think)


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Alright, im ready to make some more worthless complaints

The font for the #1 in the 10 on the bezel looks off. it shoulda had the little hat and base so it wouldn't look so narrow compared with the rest of the numbers on the bezel.

the watch is too slim and i sometimes pinch my arm hair when operating the bezel

The case back is boring. Okay all jokes aside the cuda next to my ocean one premium the finishing and details are better. I love the display case back with the decorated movement and i do look at it from time to time. But most the time im looking at the front and sides of a watch. The cuda is just better to look at with the combination of polish on the bevel and brushed flats, little details like the crown gaurds coming to a rounded point along with that polished bevel is a nice touch of class vs the ocean one where they just stop and its flat. I think the smaller crown is nicer also, its not jutting out as much but its also wider and its easier to use. The curved lugs are better and again the lugs on the ocean one just stop and are more squared off. Its just not as refined. The watch was $610 vs $700 for the cuda and i kinda wonder if they didnt go with a decorated movement, sapphire display back and ceramic bezel if the case finishing could be better along with the end links. 

Its interesting to see side by side and see what each thought was more of a priority for the price point.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> the watch is too slim


.....that's a new one.....


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## theunderground (Feb 27, 2020)

Has anyone found a jubilee bracelet that perfectly fits the Nacken? Thank you.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

theunderground said:


> Has anyone found a jubilee bracelet that perfectly fits the Nacken? Thank you.


If you're looking for a cheap one to try, any of the ones on Amazon that use 20mm folded endlinks should be a pretty good fit. I bought one for $7 a few years ago just to see if I liked the look. I still wear it fairly often.









-Rusty


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> .....that's a new one.....


Agreed! I have complained about dive watches being too thick...but never too thin


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> The font for the #1 in the 10 on the bezel looks off. it shoulda had *the little hat and base* so it wouldn't look so narrow compared with the rest of the numbers on the bezel.


For reference, those are called _serifs_. A font/typeface with that kind of decoration is called a serif type and is easier to read in a sentence. As opposed to sans serif type which does not include such decorations, and is a cleaner, more designed look, but makes for a body text type that can be harder to read.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> For reference, those are called _serifs_. A font/typeface with that kind of decoration is called a serif type and is easier to read in a sentence. As opposed to sans serif type which does not include such decorations, and is a cleaner, more designed look, but makes for a body text type that can be harder to read.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> In the business I've worked in: petrol stn franchisee, property management, and hospitality management. There's always a % figure of loss which is written off. Either through breakage, spoilage, out of date, theft, etc.
> 
> But you've got a new one to me. What's the % figure you have to write off for predicted loses due stupid-thick-irritating-beyond-belief-customer syndrome?
> ?


An interesting philosophical dilemma which arises from time to time...

Obviously, from the customer's perspective, there is the desire to see any / all businesses adopt a "customer is always right" posture, in every situation, but typically this desire comes up whenever the customer in question is the one raising the issue.

What I mean is, if you're the one complaining, you want the business to bow to your wishes. You wouldn't typically think about it when it's someone else complaining (unless they're complaining publicly), much less consider the implications, if the business were to give in to every customer demand.

That's what I think about - what does my life and business look like if I acquiesce to every customer's demands, no matter how unreasonable?

Well, for one thing, I'd be miserable. It would bother me to know I'm giving every whining bully his way, despite people telling me that it's easier to just give in, rather than put up any fight. Yes, very often, the principle matters that much to me.

If I allow myself to be miserable running the business, I won't be running it for long. If I shut it down to do something else, the impact would be that letting the bullies win hurts all my other customers.

More likely, being the numbers-oriented guy I am, I'd just find a way to build it into the business, by way of adjusting the product quality and features, and the support, and the prices, until I was satisfied that we were getting a premium which offset the cost and aggravation of giving in to every bully's unreasonable demands.

But, there again, and obviously - it hurts all my other customers. You'd pay more. You'd get less. It's a "jerk tax" everyone would have to pay, just like we all pay more to buy products from Amazon, because Amazon will let anyone return anything, for any reason, even for no reason at all.

I sometimes imagine a scenario of my wife and I out for dinner, a date-night at her favorite restaurant, suddenly and rudely disturbed by some blow-hard kicking up a fuss at the front, because his table isn't ready yet, or they can't immediately seat his party, for whatever reason.

The "customer is always right" philosophy would dictate the manager make any and every effort to placate the guy, no matter how unreasonable he may be, no matter how busy the restaurant may be, no matter how over-worked the staff may be.

My view is that placating that guy would be disastrous, on every level. It encourages him to do that with every business he patronizes, and sends a signal to the other customers - this is how you get whatever you want. It shows everyone that the manager can be bullied into giving anyone anything. It shows the staff they don't matter.

It violates our natural sense of fairness and justice, and leaves a lingering sense of distaste for that restaurant. One might wonder what goes on in the kitchen, where the food is prepared. If the manager is so lacking in backbone, would he overlook health-code violations, if the head chef was adequately surly when discussing them?

My wife and I may or may not return after that evening. But, if the manager instead told the jerk to leave, or better yet, had some large, burly staff lift the man by his arms and physically remove him, we might actually applaud, and return as soon as possible.

One of my favorite movie scenes of all time is the one in "Casino", wherein De Niro instructs casino security to escort the rude cowboy from the premises, off his feet, and use his head to open the door, like a battering ram.

So, my gut feeling is that although I may occasionally lose a customer, seemingly over something trivial, like the <$20 cost of shipping a watch back to us, I feel like I and all my other customers benefit, and a few customers actually see that, clearly, and appreciate it.

Those customers who see how I run my business, and like it, become even more loyal as a result. They know that my prices don't include a "jerk tax", and that when they need support, we'll be here to provide it, courteously and efficiently. All we ask is for customers to accept, if not appreciate the solutions we offer.

I think it's working. The vast majority of customers seem pleased with our support, and the product, and the pricing. If we occasionally lose one, because we refused to acquiesce to an unreasonable demand, so be it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Society idealizes reason and discretion....until it goes against their wishes

Keep doing what you're doing, it is working!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

wait, waiT, waIT, wAIT, WAIT!!!! Is it Wednesday? Then must be time to pause "As NTH Turns" and ogle some product!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

More product ogling&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Updates on ongoing dramas...

*That guy...*

So, the guy with the stiff crown refused to return his watch to us, on principle, because we wouldn't pay the return shipping cost. Instead, he took the watch apart himself, and cleaned & lubed the crown stem, voiding his warranty in the process.

He also opted to overlook everything my team tried to make clear in our (now quite lengthy) email exchange. Instead, he focused all his attention on the faulty assumption that we simply didn't believe him when he said the issue was present on delivery, as if that would have made any difference, and otherwise might have led us to paying for the return shipping (it wouldn't, on either score).

There have been many back-and-forth emails with him. I sent the last one, trying to make the point immediately above clear - it didn't matter whether or not we believed him, that was never a consideration at all, and would have changed nothing in this scenario. There was never a time in all of this when we considered paying the return shipping, and nothing said in the exchange had any impact on that decision.

I'm anticipating a response. If there is one, I think I'll let that message go unanswered. If the reasonableness of how we handled this situation wasn't already apparent, no additional words would seem likely to remove the cloud of confusion he seems to be operating under.

*PayPal, and Banditos of Mexico City* (or, "Even the Sun shines on a dog's a$$, some days")...

Not sure I ever closed the loop on this one, but if I did, I'd have to re-open it today, anyway.

So...after first being told that I WAS covered by PayPal's seller protection, then later being told that I was NOT covered, then being assured I actually WAS covered, I was subsequently told, nope, I wasn't covered (stay tuned, there's more). I don't suppose the reasons matter, but the gist of it seemed to be one or the other of two things, or perhaps both in combination...

1. The chargeback disputes were filed with credit cards, apparently linked to the PayPal accounts, not directly with PayPal.

2. Even though we shipped to the PayPal confirmed addresses, the packages were routed to a FedEx drop-off / pick-up point 13 miles away. And even though someone would have needed to show ID to retrieve those packages (putting the lie to any claims that the transactions were fraudulent), buried somewhere in PayPal's fine print is a proviso which stipulates that the final delivery location can't be more than 12 miles from the original shipping destination, and we were a mile beyond that.

Needless to say, I was not pleased.

However, after accepting the reality that both cases were lost, and putting them behind me, more than a month ago, lo and behold, I received a message earlier this week, about yet another dispute being opened - for one of these same transactions!

Livid, I flagged the email for follow-up, which I was finally able to do today. It took me three tries to get someone on the phone, to ask why this transaction was once again being disputed, if the original dispute had already been settled, and to re-explain all the history. But when I did, the person I spoke to agreed with my position (basically, that PayPal screwed me), and said she'd refer the matter up the food chain, for a resolution more favorable to me.

Welp, just now, I got a call from some manager person there, letting me know they credited the proceeds from both sales back to my account, in light of the circumstances, and my long history of being a stellar PayPal merchant, with a perfect record of conduct. I've been excused from having to respond further on the matter.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Wow, unless you sell direct to consumer in a lot of countries and make lots of profit doing that, I think I’d let my other country sellers handle other countries and I’d sell US only. But that’s just me…I don’t have patience to continually argue over the same issue with the same company. Goes back to your philosophy of my time is worth more to me. I also quit using PayPal years and years ago. If I can’t use a credit card, I don’t buy because I prefer undisputed protection…even if it sometimes cost me 3% more.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Wow, unless you sell direct to consumer in a lot of countries and make lots of profit doing that, I think I'd let my other country sellers handle other countries and I'd sell US only. But that's just me&#8230;I don't have patience to continually argue over the same issue with the same company. Goes back to your philosophy of my time is worth more to me. I also quit using PayPal years and years ago. If I can't use a credit card, I don't buy because I prefer undisputed protection&#8230;even if it sometimes cost me 3% more.


As often as possible, I try to direct customers outside the US to buy from my retailers outside the US, especially if the customer is in the UK or EU, where VAT will be collected on delivery, since we don't include it in the price, or elsewhere in the world, if there is a retailer who is closer.

That said - it's Mexico. We don't have a retailer there. The only way to avoid issues like this would be if our retailers had all the available inventory. As long as I have any in my own inventory, there's a risk of this happening.

After the third attempted fraud, the order I canceled and refunded, there was yet another attempt. I had to turn shipping to Mexico off on the website, which sucks, because for all I know, there's a legit watch geek there who might want to buy something. But until we hear from him, I'm tired of dealing with attempted fraud.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a really frustrating thing...










That's the tracking updates history for the most recent shipment from our vendor, with the Nacken Modern Blues we've been waiting on.

You can see our vendor shipped the remaining watches to us last week, on Tuesday. Even allowing for customs clearance delays, we expected to receive them by Friday, or if not, then perhaps Saturday, but surely no later than Monday.

Tracking wasn't updated until yesterday (Tuesday), when it appeared that the shipment cleared customs on Friday. I would have expected receipt Monday, but we were advised to expect it yesterday. Of course, we never got it.

Today, we looked, and saw that instead of coming to us directly from Alaska (which is the usual journey) the package was re-routed through Indiana (far away from where we are), and we're now advised to expect delivery tomorrow (Thursday).

I've been in contact with our FedEx rep. All he could tell us was what he was told - a recent surge in package volume, caused by e-commerce growth, has impacted delivery service, and FedEx has begun to sort packages for additional shipping / stops for sorting at alternate facilities, closer to the point of delivery.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When people break my balls about some design I mentioned having started, but haven't had time to finish, I wish they could see what I see - days / weeks / months like this are why it can take me a year or more to finish some designs. 

I literally spent my entire day dealing with one bit of nonsense after another - lost shipments, late shipments, disputed charges, local taxes, website issues, email issues, etc, etc, etc. It literally never ends. 

The bank wants a copy of my car registration. My doctor wants me to come in for an annual med-check, but I need to schedule labs first, since I blew him off on those the last two years running, and swore I wouldn't do it again (I totally did, which is why I MUST get them now). I'm supposed to update my accountant with bank, credit card and PayPal statements every month. 

I'm dealing with my retailers, trying to figure out production, taking care of customers as best as I can. I don't have time to deal with one guy taking up hours of my time over something we could have and should have sorted out in five minutes, or deal with some bizarro-world version of whack-a-mole inside FedEx's customs clearance operations or PayPal's disputed charges mediations.

My inbox has over 220 messages in it. That's just my work email, not including my personal email, which I almost never bother to open. Every few weeks, I'll set aside a day when I'll do nothing but chop my way through them all. I just did that, about a month ago, when it was over 400 deep, and I got the count down to about 50-75 messages I was saving for whenever. 

Looking at more than 200 is making my eye twitch...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> wait, waiT, waIT, wAIT, WAIT!!!! Is it Wednesday? Then must be time to pause "As NTH Turns" and ogle some product!
> 
> View attachment 16038944
> 
> ...


That strap is a craking good match for the Dark Rum dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> More product ogling&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 16039313
> 
> ...


Also a really good strap pairing.

You're on a roll, bruh.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Updates on ongoing dramas...
> 
> *That guy...*
> 
> ...


Bwahahahahahahah 

Video: how to remove and lubricate the crown, Miyota 9039


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> More product ogling&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 16039313
> 
> ...


Your nato pairings are on choice

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

These details boi









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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Daaaaaaamn

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

The case style and finish and the depth to the endlinks might be the most important details here

The smooth tapers to the crown guards and lugs along with that bevel and the depth to the endlinks really just add that extra icing on the cake to the dial

It completes the package so to speak and makes the watch look above its price point.

My steinhart is only $90 less and it visually only matches the cuda in its dial and bezel

Look at it straight on and it looks as good, change the angles and it leaves something to be desired(I get that display case back and decorated movement that I do like) The 2k1 case and bracelet are just spectacular design updates. I got a brown leather hirsch strap that may look good on this but damn the bracelet is just such a perfect fit

The cuda is an excellent value at worst here

Doc I love the v1 no crown guards, it's just cool but you and your folks reall out did themselves here very Nth degree on a nod to history watch.

Also I'm unconcerned about finding a non tool quick adjust clasp. Though it would still be nice I don't feel a need to go out of my way.

Also there's some flex in the bracelet and it's great as the bracelet flexes somewhat to my wrist, aids in the comfort. Picture is of that flex it doesn't sit straight on my wrist all the time









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Updates on ongoing dramas...
> 
> *That guy...*
> 
> ...


Woooooohoooooooo!!!!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16039755


Beat me to it!!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Bwahahahahahahah
> 
> Video: how to remove and lubricate the crown, Miyota 9039












If nothing else, you can't say the guy doesn't have a sense of irony, or humor, or something.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16039755





Mediocre said:


> Beat me to it!!!


I'm sure I'm going to regret admitting this, but curiosity compels me - I don't get the potato joke. Someone explain it to me. I feel like I must have been distracted or otherwise occupied when some huge potato-themed meme made the rounds, and I just missed it.


----------



## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

It was a poor quality photo that looks like it was taken with a potato.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm sure I'm going to regret admitting this, but curiosity compels me - I don't get the potato joke. Someone explain it to me. I feel like I must have been distracted or otherwise occupied when some huge potato-themed meme made the rounds, and I just missed it.


Old internet joke is to say low resolution or fuzzy pics were taken with a potato cam. It has been on urban dictionary since 2012, so it has been around awhile

Before the iPhone changed phone cam quality it was common lol


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Yes. Im guilty of the potato camera at times buttttt take a look at this duck i had tonight in Avalon Nj. Perfect!!!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

HammyMan37 said:


> Yes. Im guilty of the potato camera at times buttttt take a look at this duck i had tonight in Avalon Nj. Perfect!!!
> 
> View attachment 16039777


That. Looks. Delicious.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> That. Looks. Delicious.


Probably my favorite restaurant in the world. Never have been disappointed. BYOB to boot!!!


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

HammyMan37 said:


> Probably my favorite restaurant in the world. Never have been disappointed. BYOB to boot!!!


This was the amazing shrimp dish. Potato camera-ish!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I freaking love duck.

Trying to remember what I was doing in 2012. I was completely off social media at the time, and for at least 2-3 years before that, until I got fired from my job, and found WUS. I think I quit Facebook in 2008.

That's my excuse for not knowing about the potatoes, and I'm sticking to it.

Also...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I freaking love duck.
> 
> Trying to remember what I was doing in 2012. I was completely off social media at the time, and for at least 2-3 years before that, until I got fired from my job, and found WUS. I think I quit Facebook in 2008.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what I was doing in 2012, but I wish it would have kept me from finding WUS and saved me a moderate sum of money


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I'm not sure what I was doing in 2012, but I wish it would have kept me from finding WUS and saved me a moderate sum of money


I could be selling water-heaters right now, if my watch hadn't stopped...


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I could be selling water-heaters right now, if my watch hadn't stopped...


Selfishly, I am glad your watch stopped


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Selfishly, I am glad your watch stopped


You could have found me at WaterHeaterUSeek...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Once again evidence this thread is a self-contained forum about life and the pursuit of happiness.


----------



## theunderground (Feb 27, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> If you're looking for a cheap one to try, any of the ones on Amazon that use 20mm folded endlinks should be a pretty good fit. I bought one for $7 a few years ago just to see if I liked the look. I still wear it fairly often.
> View attachment 16038529
> 
> 
> -Rusty


Thanks, Rusty. I may give that a shot!


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> Once again evidence this thread is a self-contained forum about life and the pursuit of happiness.


Honestly, it's been months since I looked at any other thread on this site. I pretty much just come here now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Honestly, it's been months since I looked at any other thread on this site. I pretty much just come here now.


It ain't just the cookies!


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Well, not cookies but&#8230;


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Once again evidence this thread is a self-contained forum about life and the pursuit of happiness.


Forgive me for taking the liberty, but "a self-contained life forum".


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...for all I know, there's a legit watch geek there who might want to buy something.


Don't fret. Legit watch geek will find a way. Whether purchasing from one of your retailers, buying used, or finding a friendly in the US to broker a deal.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Quick strap change for the hell of it.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

V2


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

and its back on the bracelet, the leather looks good but it isnt as comfortable.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

i wish the crown gaurd on my steinhart was like the v2, and the crown itself. a wider crown is easier to me and i like how its much lower profile. The taper to the gaurds makes it easier to get at also besides looking better

The lugs make sense being squared off even if it aint as pretty but not so much with the crown gaurds where it improves function and looks much better.


davek35 said:


> V2
> View attachment 16041045
> 
> 
> View attachment 16041046


The execution and design are excellent arent they


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone reading this, if you're in the UK or EU, I could use your help testing something on the NTH website. I can't do it from here, because what we're testing involves geo-location targeted at the UK & EU.

Please go to the website, and add anything to your cart. It doesn't matter what it is, but if you feel like going above and beyond, try it first with something over the amounts in the messages below, then try it again with something under those amounts - be sure you empty your cart first.

Proceed to the cart page. When you get there, please look for either of these messages to pop up near the top of the screen, depending on your location:

"EU Customers - Orders under €150, choose 'DHL Parcel International Direct' as your shipping option to have your shipment arrive with VAT pre-paid, and avoid customs brokerage fees."

"UK Customers - Orders under £135, choose 'DHL Parcel International Direct' as your shipping option to have your shipment arrive with VAT pre-paid, and avoid customs brokerage fees."

From there, proceed to checkout. I'm not asking you to actually complete your purchase. But please plug your shipping info in.

Please look for either of the messages above to also appear on the checkout page.

Please also look at the shipping options which are presented to you.

If your cart sub-total is _*over*_ €150 / £135, you should NOT see "DHL Parcel International Direct" as a shipping option. You may see a different DHL option, "DHL Parcel International Standard".

If your cart sub-total is *under* those amounts, you should see it as a shipping option. You may also see an additional DHL option, "Standard", as above, which costs less.

If you don't see either of the pop-up messages above, on either the cart or checkout page (they should appear on BOTH pages), or if you see the "DHL Direct" option with a cart total OVER those amounts, or you do NOT see it UNDER those amounts, please let me know where you are, what you did or didn't see, and what your cart sub-total was.

I sincerely appreciate this help. We're trying to roll out more / cheaper shipping options on the site, and trying to comply with the new / stupid VAT collection rules for US businesses shipping to customers in the UK and EU.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh. FedEx is killing me. Still no delivery on the Nacken Modern Blues.

When I looked at it this morning, around 9am, tracking showed they were scanned in our local hub around 8:30am, and that delivery should be made by 11am.

At 2pm, still no delivery, and tracking was updated to show another scan, in the same hub, at 10am. Now it says "Scheduled Delivery: Pending". I emailed my FedEx guy at 2, told him all this, and said I wouldn't be surprised if the package isn't delivered today.

Almost 5pm now, and no further updates. No delivery made.

Did I miss something? Was there some sort of Christmas in July thing happening last month? Where the hell is all this ecommerce shipping volume coming from, all of a sudden?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...I just started researching shipping delays online.

Apparently covid-caused decreases in consumption led to a situation wherein lots of empty shipping containers got left in the USA, whereas they are now desperately needed in China, causing the cost of shipping one of those containers to skyrocket, as much as five-fold.

Meanwhile, there are killer floods around major shipping ports in both China and Europe, causing further delays.

So, apparently, looking for cost-effective, or at the very least, time-effective alternatives, sea-freight users are shifting to air-freight, leading to log-jams within the air-freight cargo lines.

I also found this little tidbit quite interesting - apparently AliBaba has its own logistics arm, Cainiao, which has apparently formed arrangements with all the major international couriers, to ensure factories selling through AliBaba have adequate air cargo capacity, with no worries of increased costs or delays.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

@docvail - I had a fairly long wait for this second FedEx package of things-I-can't-mention-here. Customs held it for an extra day or two after paperwork had been filed. It seems there's at least a bit of delay on the receiving end as well.


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

rpm1974 said:


> @docvail - I had a fairly long wait for this second FedEx package of *things-I-can't-mention-here*


Why not? Did someone tell you to not mention Atticus? Is it the forum? Wants you to be a sponsor??


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Proceed to the cart page. When you get there, please look for either of these messages to pop up near the top of the screen, depending on your location:
> 
> "EU Customers - Orders under €150, choose 'DHL Parcel International Direct' as your shipping option to have your shipment arrive with VAT pre-paid, and avoid customs brokerage fees."


yep, that shows up alright



docvail said:


> From there, proceed to checkout. I'm not asking you to actually complete your purchase. But please plug your shipping info in.
> 
> Please look for either of the messages above to also appear on the checkout page.


hmm, no I didnt notice this. I assume it's meant to show up in the same place, after I put in my address, where I select the shipping options? I just went back around to make sure I didnt miss it, but no dice.



docvail said:


> If your cart sub-total is _*over*_ €150 / £135, you should NOT see "DHL Parcel International Direct" as a shipping option. You may see a different DHL option, "DHL Parcel International Standard".


roger that.



docvail said:


> If your cart sub-total is *under* those amounts, you should see it as a shipping option. You may also see an additional DHL option, "Standard", as above, which costs less.


I then went back to clear the cart, and added something under 150 (the banner you asked about on the cart page is still there), and now have the DHL standard option available to me when I proceed through the checkout.
But again, no banner after the cart pages

Adding more shipping options is great news. Prepaid taxes even better.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> yep, that shows up alright
> 
> hmm, no I didnt notice this. I assume it's meant to show up in the same place, after I put in my address, where I select the shipping options? I just went back around to make sure I didnt miss it, but no dice.
> 
> ...


Thanks for helping us test this. It seems that most of what I spent the day doing is working correctly, but we still don't have the banner showing up on the checkout page, unless it was there, but disappeared after you put your address in.

If no one else sees it either, I'll have to get someone to look into that tomorrow.

The VAT-paid feature is nice, but what's really nice is the fact that it will save people in the EU and UK from paying those nasty customs brokerage fees the couriers charge. I think it's like €22, which is a real kick in the teeth when you're ordering a $50 bezel insert or rubber strap.

My fear is that people will overlook the banner messages, and simply opt for one of the cheaper options, not realizing they'll get billed for the VAT and that fee. The shipping options' names are programmed by my warehouse. I've asked them to do something to call attention to the VAT-paid feature for that option, so that it's more obvious when people see all the options together.

That VAT-paid service is only available for orders under €150 or £135. Over those amounts, VAT will be collected by the courier, and I assume they'll tack on a brokerage fee.

All that said - there are now 4-5 shipping options for non-US customers, some of them surprisingly cheap, and as many as 9 shipping options for peeps inside the USA.

I've gotten people outside the US commenting about the high shipping costs for lower-priced items. I hope this alleviates the concern they have.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> For anyone reading this, if you're in the UK or EU, I could use your help testing something on the NTH website. I can't do it from here, because what we're testing involves geo-location targeted at the UK & EU.
> 
> Please go to the website, and add anything to your cart. It doesn't matter what it is, but if you feel like going above and beyond, try it first with something over the amounts in the messages below, then try it again with something under those amounts - be sure you empty your cart first.
> 
> ...


Doc, using a VPN to pretend to be at home in UK :

I got the UK customer message on the cart page but I still see "DHL Parcel International Direct" as an option even though my cart has 750 USD in it.

when accessing the site in Norway (no VPN)

I get no pop up message on the cart page and can still see "DHL Parcel International Direct" as an option even though my cart has 750 USD in it. I am still using my UK address for shipping.

I guess Norway only being a member of the European Economic Area and not an EU member may make things more complicated though.


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## Jasonscott (Oct 3, 2019)

Hey Doc-
Any chance the Black Odin comes back?
Or maybe a super dark (almost black) shade of navy? 
Great looking watches by the way


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

shipping on lower cost items was definitely a factor for me. I think it was usually around $45 for a bezel insert, any time I checked.

One thing I never understood when ordering stuff from the US is how the shipping rates are calculated. I cannot remember if it was the same on your page, but this definitely was an issue when I ordered from the Allen Edmonds online store a few weeks ago.

I wanted to order a pair of shoes, and added a small accessory to my cart, and suddenly the shipping rate doubled. So a $5 item would now cost $45, shipping included. Why?? The number of boxes doesn't change (shouldn't, if they have their logistics act together), the weight hardly changes. It's silly.

I've only ever had this with US based sellers. From Asia, shipping is usually a flat rate, regardless of how big / how many item I ordered.



docvail said:


> The VAT-paid feature is nice, but what's really nice is the fact that it will save people in the EU and UK from paying those nasty customs brokerage fees the couriers charge. I think it's like €22, which is a real kick in the teeth when you're ordering a $50 bezel insert or rubber strap.


That's exactly why it's nice. Just got slapped with it last week. Import duty was 1.20 Euro or so.. Alt least it was only a tenner that DHL charged for their 'service', even though it should have been paid already under the new regulation. So as nice as this system is in principle, it really doesn't seem to work yet.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

iiiiiiiiiiiTTTTTTT'SSSSSS FRIDAY!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> iiiiiiiiiiiTTTTTTT'SSSSSS FRIDAY!
> 
> View attachment 16042165
> 
> ...


Friday is my blood type









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> shipping on lower cost items was definitely a factor for me. I think it was usually around $45 for a bezel insert, any time I checked.
> 
> One thing I never understood when ordering stuff from the US is how the shipping rates are calculated. I cannot remember if it was the same on your page, but this definitely was an issue when I ordered from the Allen Edmonds online store a few weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Shipping into the US is subsidized and very cheap, but shipping out is very expensive and pricing is tiered.

For example, if a small accessory is 3oz, that can push you to a new pricing tier. As an example, just going from 8oz to 9oz is an actual increase of $7 if I'm shipping to Canada. Or, another is example is that it actually costs MORE than double to ship a 4lb package to Canada than a 2lb package.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

There's also dimensions of the package being shipped to consider even when weight may not be a factor. The small accessory may have pushed them to get a larger box. Where some companies might find a way to stick the accessory in the shoe box proper and maybe save a little, some may not. Shipping is also automatically calculated based on product specification inputs and in that case, only as good as the person finding and entering the data into the website. 

The shipping cost conundrum occurs in US-to-US shipping also. If I feel the shipping cost is excessive and I really want the product, I'll call the store owner and usually a reasonable shipping cost is agreed upon and I get what I want. Sometimes, they're able to communicate the reason for the shipping cost and I make a decision based on that information.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Doc, using a VPN to pretend to be at home in UK :
> 
> I got the UK customer message on the cart page but I still see "DHL Parcel International Direct" as an option even though my cart has 750 USD in it.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm...clearly, we have more work to do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jasonscott said:


> Hey Doc-
> Any chance the Black Odin comes back?
> Or maybe a super dark (almost black) shade of navy?
> Great looking watches by the way


Sign up for the email newsletter, at the bottom of the homepage of our website. Whatever we make, we'll announce it in the email newsletter, before it goes on sale.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> So...I just started researching shipping delays online.
> 
> Apparently covid-caused decreases in consumption led to a situation wherein lots of empty shipping containers got left in the USA, whereas they are now desperately needed in China, causing the cost of shipping one of those containers to skyrocket, as much as five-fold.
> 
> ...


Dude... I hear you can source manufacturing through AliBaba, for, like $200/pc or so... 🤣 🤣 🤣


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Surface shipping from China:

Say a couple years ago, it was $2000 for an order of 7500 tarot packages, weighing about that many lbs, on 6 pallets, consolidated shipping (not full container).
Delivery from China plant to Port of Hong Kong and load onto boat: 1 week
At sea: 4 weeks
US Port delivery, customs inspection, hand off to freight delivery service, 1 week.
Give or take 1-2 weeks, total of 6-8 weeks.

Today:
$6000 for the same shipment, including the [previous president trade war*] tariff/tax at 7.5% of manufacturing unit cost value, and current variable rate, based on demand. Last time a variable rate like this was employed was when fuel prices were in wild flux. 
2 weeks just to find a booking, 2 weeks to get it on a boat due to Port congestion in HK. 
4-5 weeks on the water.
1 week to get the boat docked, and 2 weeks to unload, clear customs ,through to final freight service hand off. 
Give or take 2-3 weeks. 12-13 weeks.

*Note that it is still cheaper to manufacture overseas, just that added cost of manufacturing/shipping, i.e. tariff, gets passed along to consumers as a hidden tax.

International logistics is f'n crazy right now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> One thing I never understood when ordering stuff from the US is how the shipping rates are calculated.


Adding to what others have said, in no particular order, these are my observations...

1. Shipping within the USA, using the US Mail, is insanely affordable (usually), because the US mail is government subsidized. The mail is almost always going to be cheaper than shipping with a private courier (though I have seen some better rates with FedEx Home Delivery, sometimes, depending on circumstances).

2. But shipping from the USA to anywhere outside the USA, the rates are insanely not affordable. It's nowhere near as reasonable as it is for those outside the USA to ship something to the USA. What would cost you $25 to ship to the US will cost us $50 or more to ship to you.

3. The cheapest option for most individuals is going to be shipping with the US Mail, but the problem there is the US mail will be handing the shipment off to another courier to make delivery in the destination country, so we see an increase in problems, such as aborted tracking scans, and lost packages.

4. In addition to weight, package dimensions and value play a role, if the shipment is going to include insurance against loss. While the US Mail's shipping rates tend to be reasonable enough (by comparison to the private couriers'), their insurance rates are ridiculous. My business benefits from lower shipping insurance rates, from a third-party insurer, to which we gain access when we outsource our order fulfillment.

5. Along with that, if we add additional services, such as signature delivery (something more likely when the package value goes up), that adds to the shipping costs.

6. Specifically looking at shipping rates on ecommerce websites, it's all over the board. Some ecommerce platforms offer merchants access to discounted shipping rates from various couriers, some don't. Sometimes you can pull rates in from external, third-party logistics companies (like my warehouse), and somtimes you can't.

Some merchants will use the appearance of lower cost (free or flat-rate) shipping options as a sales incentive, and just build the added shipping costs into their product prices.

Either way, flat-rate shipping options make it possible for merchants to know exactly what they'll pay in shipping, per order (if they're offering free shipping to customers), or allows them to give customers simpler choices. I liked being able to know exactly what it would cost my customers to have a watch shipped to them, no matter where the watch was going.

When I started my business, flat rate with the US mail was the only option we used. More recently, we were using calculated (as opposed to flat) rates from the US mail for most domestic shipments, and calculated rates from FedEx for shipments going outside the US. We still use flat rate US mail shipping for the Nearly New watches, because they ship from Dan's workshop, not our warehouse.

Within my website's back-end, the ecommerce platform I use gives me access to "discounted rates" from the US mail, UPS, and DHL. If I wanted to, I could have those options presented to customers at checkout.

(We don't use them, because we're not shipping orders ourselves. We outsourced the order fulfillment function.)

But I also have the ability to negotiate directly with UPS and DHL, and import my negotiated rates into my website, via connecting it to my account with the couriers. It becomes a challenge for merchants like me to always know which will be the best option beforehand - my ecommerce platform's rates, or the rates I negotiated on my own.

Meanwhile, my website provider doesn't provide any access to discounted rates from FedEx. My only option with FedEx used to be connecting my site directly to my own FedEx account. I wasn't able to import rates from our warehouse, which gets MUCH better rates than I do (and which is what started this whole convo).

In order to avoid over-charging customers for shipping, we went through the painstaking process of running shipping quotes on the website, and an identical quote in the warehouse's dashboard, for various products, with destinations in about 80 countries around the world.

We built out a huge spreadsheet to calculate the difference. We then built out two product groups in the dashboard of my website - watches, and everything else, which is all lighter weight and lower value. Within each of those two product groups, we built a dozen or more country groupings, each with fixed-amount adjustments to be made for customers at checkout.

So, as an example, if my own imported FedEx rate would show a cost of $60 to ship a strap to Sweden, but the warehouse's FedEx rate was $40, we'd build in a $20 deduction from our site's calculated rates.

We had to do that for every country we ship to, running four shipping quotes for each - shipping a watch, or something else, using our rates, versus the warehouse rates. In the spreadsheet, we built in variables such as packaging materials, insurance rates, and any other costs included when we ship.

It wasn't a perfect system, but it worked well enough, for the last few years. But when the new VAT collection rules went into place for the UK, and then the EU, I took note when I got an email from my warehouse, about the new VAT-paid shipping options from DHL, which led to a call with my warehouse, during which I was told that it is now possible to import all their shipping rates into my website, and present them as options at checkout.

So, we still have the two product groups (watches, and everything else), but now we just have two shipping regions for each product group - the USA, and everywhere else. The only reason we need to split the products into two groups, and split the USA out from the rest of the world is because the shipping insurance rates are different. Otherwise, all the rates now presented at checkout are the lowest shipping rates we can get from our warehouse.

Even if another business selling products with the same prices is using the same system I am, there are still reasons for you to see some difference. For instance, in order to limit how much we spend on shipping insurance, we don't insure everything for full value. We use a lower value, and absorb some of the risk of loss. If another business isn't insuring at all, or insuring shipments for full value, their shipping rates may be lower or higher.

It could also be a function of where they are shipping from, within the US. My warehouse is about 50 miles from the closest airport. My previous warehouse was at least 80 miles. The couriers know their cost per mile, down to the penny.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

All that fancy talk about shipping. Can't get a watch to a guy who practically lives next door without it getting lost in the mail.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> All that fancy talk about shipping. Can't get a watch to a guy who practically lives next door without it getting lost in the mail.


Bruh...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Just poking the bear! . Bro-love shipmate!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Dude... I hear you can source manufacturing through AliBaba, for, like $200/pc or so...


Nth production costs are well under the $200 usd per watch.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Nth production costs are well under the $200 usd per watch.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


And you know this, how? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> And you know this, how? Inquiring minds want to know.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't engage. It'll only cause the equivalent of ice cream headache.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone want to tell me what my operational costs are, since apparently my production costs are well known to all?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Anyone want to tell me what my operational costs are, since apparently my production costs are well known to all?


Your production costs are obviously!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Your production costs are obviously!
> 
> View attachment 16043211


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Anyone want to tell me what my operational costs are, since apparently my production costs are well known to all?


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> It ain't just the cookies!





Red PeeKay said:


> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Someone say cookies?



TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16043264


I laughed out loud, my youngest luckily thinks it was at Paw Patrol


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> And you know this, how? Inquiring minds want to know.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Best educated guess knowing what other similar watches from similar factories cost to produce.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

JLS36 said:


> Best educated guess knowing what other similar watches from similar factories cost to produce.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Can you name these other watches and their brands and also how you came about the specific knowledge regarding their cost? I'm not asking you to disclose your precise relationship, necessarily. Just your general function or why you have been involved in the costing of these similar watches and perhaps why you specifically feel they are exemplars to the NTH watches. At a minimum, your experience and qualification in determining the cost of these exemplar watches and being able to compare them to NTH watches.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

JLS36 said:


> Best educated guess knowing what other similar watches from similar factories cost to produce.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Did somebody say THRESHER SATURDAY?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Any one who says “educated guess” needs to produce a diploma. Pics or it didn’t happen


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Best educated guess knowing what other similar watches from similar factories cost to produce.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


And you know this how?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Any one who says "educated guess" needs to produce a diploma. Pics or it didn't happen


I have a diploma in visual arts and design, let me tell you about special relativity and how Einstein was wrong..

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Best educated guess knowing what other similar watches from similar factories cost to produce.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


You aren't the only one interested in building a micro brand. What's app and a laptop along with some introductions go a long way.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> You aren't the only one interested in building a micro brand. What's app and a laptop along with some introductions go a long way.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


I visited a watch forum, watched YouTube, and slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I now know exactly what factory every micro brand uses for every component, what their price breaks per MOQ are, which shipping/freight forwarders they use, their rates for all logistics, their cost for domestic overhead (in their home countries and currency), which currency they pay suppliers in, the number of employees they pay, what they pay employees, their marketing strategy and budget, even the extra items they write off against their business

And the continental breakfast at the hotel was pretty legit too. Love those chocolate chip waffles


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> I visited a watch forum, watched YouTube, and slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
> 
> I now know exactly what factory every micro brand uses for every component, what their price breaks per MOQ are, which shipping/freight forwarders they use, their rates for all logistics, their cost for domestic overhead (in their home countries and currency), which currency they pay suppliers in, the number of employees they pay, what they pay employees, their marketing strategy and budget, even the extra items they write off against their business
> 
> And the continental breakfast at the hotel was pretty legit too. Love those chocolate chip waffles


People go to college online, work online build business online, nth watches is built and lives online. Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying it's not possible for me to learn what things cost over the internet and what it takes to build and ship watches?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> People go to college online, work online build business online, nth watches is built and lives online. Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying it's not possible for me to learn what things cost over the internet and what it takes to build and ship watches?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


People stay in hotels all the time. Are you questioning chocolate chip pancakes?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> People stay in hotels all the time. Ate you questioning chocolate chip pancakes?


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Ahh. I see that it's time for us to do this again. I'll check back in five pages or so.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Said before, I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it...

If someone thinks what I do is easy, and that they can do it better, by making the same product, and delivering the same service, but selling the product for less, it's not hard to start a business like this.

It's only hard to keep it going.

Most who try fail.

"It's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll." - Bon Scott


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Said before, I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it...
> 
> If someone thinks what I do is easy, and that they can do it better, by making the same product, and delivering the same service, but selling the product for less, it's not hard to start a business like this.
> 
> ...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> View attachment 16045035


Feed?

I learned karate in an online class (in tandem with micro brand building) to protect my chocolate chip pancakes. Pancakes share the same financial model as watch making. Flour is like stainless steel, chocolate chips are like movement jewels, only the best sapphire glass is like fine butter. But yeah, online karate black belt like Bruce Lee.

Bring it, but beware the googly eyes bruh.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Soooo, when I ordered both my Swiftsure and Thresher (separately), I ordered the Viton rubber straps with each. Upon receipt of watches, I immediately slapped on the straps which eventually moved on to NATO straps. Today I thought I might try the bracelet on my Thresher which I grow more fond of by the day (mainly since +7 seconds after 5 days—-WAY better than Swiftsure). Spent about 1-1.5 hours trying over and over and over and over (and over) to get pins through bracelet and into one hole then the other. For the life of me I cannot find the right angle to get one side of the pin into its hole so I can brace the pin while I use the tool to get other side in. I’m sure my old eyes in trifocals don‘t help, but any tips appreciated.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> Soooo, when I ordered both my Swiftsure and Thresher (separately), I ordered the Viton rubber straps with each. Upon receipt of watches, I immediately slapped on the straps which eventually moved on to NATO straps. Today I thought I might try the bracelet on my Thresher which I grow more fond of by the day (mainly since +7 seconds after 5 days--WAY better than Swiftsure). Spent about 1-1.5 hours trying over and over and over and over (and over) to get pins through bracelet and into one hole then the other. For the life of me I cannot find the right angle to get one side of the pin into its hole so I can brace the pin while I use the tool to get other side in. I'm sure my old eyes in trifocals don't help, but any tips appreciated.


I usually come from the bottom and accept the small scratches on the lugs that are nearly inevitable


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Soooo, when I ordered both my Swiftsure and Thresher (separately), I ordered the Viton rubber straps with each. Upon receipt of watches, I immediately slapped on the straps which eventually moved on to NATO straps. Today I thought I might try the bracelet on my Thresher which I grow more fond of by the day (mainly since +7 seconds after 5 days--WAY better than Swiftsure). Spent about 1-1.5 hours trying over and over and over and over (and over) to get pins through bracelet and into one hole then the other. For the life of me I cannot find the right angle to get one side of the pin into its hole so I can brace the pin while I use the tool to get other side in. I'm sure my old eyes in trifocals don't help, but any tips appreciated.


Insert pin into bracelet
Holding watch dial down set end link into lugs with pin sitting on lugs
Use spring bar tool to slide one side of spring bar into link while applying gentle pressure to end link with thumb
While maintaining pressure on end link push in opposite side of spring bar.
Bracelet end link should click into place
Gently shimmy around if you haven't heard each end of the spring bar click in place during install

I've swapped so many watches this has become a 30 to 60 second task.

Edit: if I had a third hand I'd give you a photo step by step. But alas, I'm a lowly two handed individual and this task requires both.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

In answer to @Lab4Us above:

On getting bracelets on and off, it's always fiddly, but you get better with practice.

Like TheBearded says: face down, one side just in (but not in the hole), then the other side just in - then push down until both sides click into their holes.

I use a flat blade. The caliper style strap tools are pretty useless, and the cheaper eBay ones worse than that.

If you're worried about scratches, cover the lug with sellotape.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Thanks guys, not worried about bottom side scratches (don’t flip watches, will all go to grandson so he can piss people off here in 20-30 years asking what they’re worth ). Never thought about not shooting for pin hole on first side…seems I’ve always been able to get first side in before messing with second…but never messed with bracelets that fit this tight against the case. I’ll sleep on it and give it another go tomorrow.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Thanks guys, not worried about bottom side scratches (don't flip watches, will all go to grandson so he can piss people off here in 20-30 years asking what they're worth ). Never thought about not shooting for pin hole on first side&#8230;seems I've always been able to get first side in before messing with second&#8230;but never messed with bracelets that fit this tight against the case. I'll sleep on it and give it another go tomorrow.


**** heres hoping i get dementia and aske people here in 20-30 years what my nth is worth


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

i dont understand the big fuss on the prices and prices doc pays. Like there has to be mark up, this has to be worth doing. The quality is very good and im quite happy, its on par or better than anything else ive had in the price range so id wager im not getting ripped off. Would i like a better price sure, but i also wanna buy another watch potentially from doc down the road, could be years and i want his company there. Theres more to the price than what he pays for production. Theres design work, employees, qc, warranty, regulation, and so on then the money doc makes. Running a company delivering a good fair product he deserves to make money too.


If his price was too high it would be the same as if his price was too low, he would be out of business.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

also doc, the video when you showed off the v2 cuda, you said the bezel would get better, i liked it but its been almost two weeks now and its has slicked up a good bit. Its really really nice.

I think ill sell my steinhart within a year to be frank. I have a cheaper grail watch ive adored for years, the farer lander gmt and when i save up close to a grand ill sell the steinhart and order that bad boy.

The fine details side by side with the cuda took some of the thunder out for me. The crown gaurds just ending and being flat, the lugs being squared off, the endlinks being more flush. Iunno its a series of small things and the trade off is probably that decorated movement and display caseback along with the ceramic bezel. Looking at the steinhart straight on and it looks on par with the cuda, but when you change the angles it just doesnt look as finished as the cuda does. It looks like thats where the machining had to stop so they could apply the finish and make the price point.

Its small details that arent so obvious till you put it next something that kept going and finished those details.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i dont understand the big fuss on the prices and prices doc pays. Like there has to be mark up, this has to be worth doing. The quality is very good and im quite happy, its on par or better than anything else ive had in the price range so id wager im not getting ripped off. Would i like a better price sure, but i also wanna buy another watch potentially from doc down the road, could be years and i want his company there. Theres more to the price than what he pays for production. Theres design work, employees, qc, warranty, regulation, and so on then the money doc makes. Running a company delivering a good fair product he deserves to make money too.
> 
> If his price was too high it would be the same as if his price was too low, he would be out of business.


Not really a big fuss, just one (or a few, but I'm only aware of the one) that think he/she/they are in a position to set prices for a company with which he/she/they have no affiliation.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Not really a big fuss, just one (or a few, but I'm only aware of the one) that think he/she/they are in a position to set prices for a company with which he/she/they have no affiliation.


not much to worry about but for example i just compared it against my steinhart premium ocean one which is only $90 cheaper and it leaves the stenhart wanting in my opinion so far. Which i wasnt expecting cause that is not a huge price difference. I dont hear people complaining about steinharts price.

i think the trade off is on the details and finishing as the steinhart has some features going for it that the cuda does not, the decorated swiss movement and sapphire display case back along with the ceramic bezel. these are things that cost more money to steinhart and the watch would be more expensive than the cuda if it had that and finished to the cudas level. Steinhart knows even if its that excellent its a hard sell and they do well where they are at. I really like the display case back, i like to se the movement as its novel to me still, but i dont like to sacrifice the dial to see it. I wish it didnt have the ceramic bezel, too reflective. I think id trade that displayed decorated movement for the lugs and crown gaurds to be machined better, rounded and pointed off, vs where they just stop. that alone would improve the watch and what i see every time i wear it. Even with the display case back i dont see the movement that often.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

"It's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll." - Bon Scott[/QUOTE]

TRUTH!

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

now speaking to pricing i was just watching a tudor black bay review and the cost of the bracelet was mentioned at $800 and i gotta say i dont really get that. Its not fully articulated, no glidelock, only three micro adjusts. The only thing seemingly special is it uses ceramic detents in the clasps.

Can someone make that make a little sense?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> now speaking to pricing i was just watching a tudor black bay review and the cost of the bracelet was mentioned at $800 and i gotta say i dont really get that. Its not fully articulated, no glidelock, only three micro adjusts. The only thing seemingly special is it uses ceramic detents in the clasps.
> 
> Can someone make that make a little sense?


It says "Tudor" on the clasp.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> It says "Tudor" on the clasp.


that was kind of my hunch. Its nearly the simplest bracelet with the only thing special being the ceramic detent. Otherwise it seems to be really lacking compared to many many cheaper bracelets, and tudor isnt the only one withwhat i consider a really lazy sloppy bracelet for the money. almost forgot it doesnt even have half links to go with the only three position micro adjust

Also im skeptical of the whole pricing structure as is often pointed out for homages they save money by not having to go all the way on the design which makes some sense. HOWEVER wouldnt a current submariner only being refreshed be at the same advantage and in essence be a rolex branded homage to its own watch thus cutting out a lot of design work? Should that reduce the cost tremendously if its not using any wild precious metals with an inhouse movement being the expensive part?

Iunno but when im hunting down my first luxury watch ill be browsing for a grand seiko spring drive diver


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> that was kind of my hunch. Its nearly the simplest bracelet with the only thing special being the ceramic detent. Otherwise it seems to be really lacking compared to many many cheaper bracelets, and tudor isnt the only one withwhat i consider a really lazy sloppy bracelet for the money. almost forgot it doesnt even have half links to go with the only three position micro adjust
> 
> Also im skeptical of the whole pricing structure as is often pointed out for homages they save money by not having to go all the way on the design which makes some sense. HOWEVER wouldnt a current submariner only being refreshed be at the same advantage and in essence be a rolex branded homage to its own watch thus cutting out a lot of design work? Should that reduce the cost tremendously if its not using any wild precious metals with an inhouse movement being the expensive part?
> 
> Iunno but when im hunting down my first luxury watch ill be browsing for a grand seiko spring drive diver


I have zero personal experience, so take this as you will. But I've read even the GS bracelets leave a lot to be desired.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I have zero personal experience, so take this as you will. But I've read even the GS bracelets leave a lot to be desired.


i have heard that as well tbh, but i rekon ill see for my self one day, and also hopefully they will be better when im shopping. The dials and spring drive are very captivating

Id like to try on a blackbay58 someday too. if its comfortable and works for me then the gripes dont matter so much

From the outside looking in it doesnt make much sense but that could change with experience.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Had one of those "not sure I should be proud or say sorry" moments yesterday...

My marketing guy, Josh, has a little boy, Ari, who turns 5 tomorrow. They had his birthday party yesterday.

Josh wasn't a watch geek before we met. He was wearing an Apple Watch. Now he's got a handful of NTHs, and is seriously into G-Shocks. So much for all the talk about the Apple Watch killing the traditional watch.

Anyway, I noticed a nice little watch display case on a low shelf in the kitchen. Josh caught me walking over to it. I thought it was his collection, but nope, it was little Ari's.

He said, "look what you started..." Becuase Dad is into watches, little Ari had to have his own little collection.

Here's hoping more WIS dads (or even moms) are setting that sort of example for their kids.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> and is seriously into G-Shocks.


I've recently fallen victim to the GShock rabbit hole... I had a Mudmaster first, it was my true dirty work watch. Half killed it because I tried to hydro mod it. I say half killed, because it still worked per se, but the stepper motors weren't strong enough to move the seconds hand. 
Then came the GA2100-4A red Casioak. I effin love that thing. Its digi display is all but useless in most light, but man is that watch just _fun_! I already have plans to buy either the grey or green metal version when they release towards the end of this month.
Now I've got my first square on the way, a GWM5610. Solar and multiband 6 for $98?! Um, yes please. Why TF not?!

I see square mods in my future.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I've recently fallen victim to the GShock rabbit hole... I had a Mudmaster first, it was my true dirty work watch. Half killed it because I tried to hydro mod it. I say half killed, because it still worked per se, but the stepper motors weren't strong enough to move the seconds hand.
> Then came the GA2100-4A red Casioak. I effin love that thing. Its digi display is all but useless in most light, but man is that watch just _fun_! I already have plans to buy either the grey or green metal version when they release towards the end of this month.
> Now I've got my first square on the way, a GWM5610. Solar and multiband 6 for $98?! Um, yes please. Why TF not?!
> 
> I see square mods in my future.


I think Josh has the Casioak. I'm not sure. I know he's got a G-steel, and that recent LE, with all the funky colors.


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

The diet starts tomorrow. Gonna keep the powered sugar on the strap so I can enjoy it later.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> The diet starts tomorrow. Gonna keep the powered sugar on the strap so I can enjoy it later.
> View attachment 16046699


Ron Swanson doesnt diet.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Here's hoping more WIS dads (or even moms) are setting that sort of example for their kids.


My boy doesn't have his own watch box yet, but occasionally in quiet moments when he's sitting next to me at the dinner table or on the couch, he'll ask to "wear" whatever watch I have on. And he knows all about the manned space program, so his favorite is my "astronaut watch".


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> The diet starts tomorrow. Gonna keep the powered sugar on the strap so I can enjoy it later.
> View attachment 16046699


CDM? Are you down in my 'hood? Just visiting or a resident?

-Rusty


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Had one of those "not sure I should be proud or say sorry" moments yesterday...
> 
> My marketing guy, Josh, has a little boy, Ari, who turns 5 tomorrow. They had his birthday party yesterday.
> 
> ...


I don't want an Apple Watch or smart watch ever.

I love solar and mechanical watches cause I don't gotta charge them, I like the better water resist, I like dials and cases, I like dedicated tools also.

I already got a cell phone and I think that already makes me too easy to get ahold of. Last thing I want is my phone to be a watch while I'm also carrying a phone around

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> The diet starts tomorrow. Gonna keep the powered sugar on the strap so I can enjoy it later.
> View attachment 16046699


Small world if you live around here. Rpm and I live on the north shore

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> I don't want an Apple Watch or smart watch ever.
> 
> I love solar and mechanical watches cause I don't gotta charge them, I like the better water resist, I like dials and cases, I like dedicated tools also.
> 
> ...


I seriously considered an Apple watch for a bit. Accurate time, apps, etc. But I need to carry too many chargers as it is, and having to remove the watch daily (or in my case, in the middle of the night when I'm still working) is completely contrary to my desire to know what freaking time it is. And so the mechanicals win, in my world.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - smart watches vs silly mechanical watches...

People who wear mechanical watches want to wear MECHANICAL watches. 

Those people, as small a portion of the world population as they may be, aren't going to up and switch to smart watches, in large numbers, simply because smart watches exist. 

If they were, they wouldn't have been wearing mechanical watches. They would have been wearing no watch at all, or something closer to a smart watch, like a digital, a Sunnto, a G-shock, etc.

So, when people claim smart watches are what's killing the mechanical watch industry, those people are wrong.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Re - smart watches vs silly mechanical watches...
> 
> People who wear mechanical watches want to wear MECHANICAL watches.
> 
> ...


Spot on man. It's what I want and a smart watch is as far away from what I want that's still a watch.

Even if they incorporate a kinetic movement like seiko or solar down the road I don't care.

I want the charm of a dial not a screen and I don't want to get notifications on my watch

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

rpm1974 said:


> CDM? Are you down in my 'hood? Just visiting or a resident?
> 
> -Rusty


In town on an overnight for work. 18 hours to squeeze it all in.



Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Small world if you live around here. Rpm and I live on the north shore
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd die in this humidity.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Pssst.. I homaged yer homage&#8230; Sporkene..


















Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> In town on an overnight for work. 18 hours to squeeze it all in.
> 
> I'd die in this humidity.


I hate summer so much man. You're lucky you weren't here the last two weeks or so. Hade an excessive heat wave on top of the humidity

Every "winter" there's someone saying they can't wait till summer too

I think I'd be within my rights to drown them in a ditch

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Re - smart watches vs silly mechanical watches...
> 
> People who wear mechanical watches want to wear MECHANICAL watches.
> 
> ...


My guess is the astronomical prices and the fraillness of main line automatics scare a lot away, and most are afraid of micro brands.

Not like I would wear a mechanical doing serious mountain biking&#8230;G-Shock all the way. As someone mentioned above, the tough solar battery and multiband 6 for spot on accuracy don't hurt either. Even my Apple Watch took two serious bicycle spills at speed with me and didn't lose a beat. I wear mechanicals for the nostalgia. As long as my routine bicycle street rides don't affect them, they're what I'll wear.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

It appears I just snagged the last no-date Meteora linen dial, as it now shows as sold out after I placed my order just now. Originally I resisted the 38mm size, but my recent Islanders (salmon, Robins Egg blue and fluted dark blue) not to mention several Smiths, adjusted my size range.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> My guess is the astronomical prices and the fraillness of main line automatics scare a lot away, and most are afraid of micro brands.
> 
> Not like I would wear a mechanical doing serious mountain biking&#8230;G-Shock all the way. As someone mentioned above, the tough solar battery and multiband 6 for spot on accuracy don't hurt either. Even my Apple Watch took two serious bicycle spills at speed with me and didn't lose a beat. I wear mechanicals for the nostalgia. As long as my routine bicycle street rides don't affect them, they're what I'll wear.


In my experience, people are quite wrong about the "frailness" of mechanical watches. I'm an electrician by trade, and all of my autos are/have been worn to work(the Tourby hasn't, and probably never will be). Hard knocks are inevitable. Hammer drills and full size rotary hammers, sawzalls, hammers, chiseles and all sorts of other tools are utilized.

Is a quartz tougher? Sure. Less moving parts. But I have _no_ issues wearing a watch with a Miyota, ETA, Sellita or the like to do tough work.

As I said previously, my G was/is for the truly _dirty_ work.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I have zero personal experience, so take this as you will. But I've read even the GS bracelets leave a lot to be desired.


Their clasp choices and link/screws are subpar vs similar prices competition. I got lucky that mine fit well enough with needing unavailable micro adjustment. Many are not so lucky


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> In my experience, people are quite wrong about the "frailness" of mechanical watches. I'm an electrician by trade, and all of my autos are/have been worn to work(the Tourby hasn't, and probably never will be). Hard knocks are inevitable. Hammer drills and full size rotary hammers, sawzalls, hammers, chiseles and all sorts of other tools are utilized.
> 
> Is a quartz tougher? Sure. Less moving parts. But I have _no_ issues wearing a watch with a Miyota, ETA, Sellita or the like to do tough work.
> 
> As I said previously, my G was/is for the truly _dirty_ work.


Unless I an using a hammer drill, jackhammer, or cutting up wood I have no worries wearing a mechanical. After having an automatic let go when busting wood I accepted it was G-Shock work


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> In my experience, people are quite wrong about the "frailness" of mechanical watches. I'm an electrician by trade, and all of my autos are/have been worn to work(the Tourby hasn't, and probably never will be). Hard knocks are inevitable. Hammer drills and full size rotary hammers, sawzalls, hammers, chiseles and all sorts of other tools are utilized.
> 
> Is a quartz tougher? Sure. Less moving parts. But I have _no_ issues wearing a watch with a Miyota, ETA, Sellita or the like to do tough work.
> 
> As I said previously, my G was/is for the truly _dirty_ work.


It would be interesting to know if a company would replace (or repair) one of my watch movements (among other parts) under warranty if they broke during a bicycle crash&#8230;or even during routine hard riding.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> It would be interesting to know if a company would replace (or repair) one of my watch movements (among other parts) under warranty if they broke during a bicycle crash&#8230;


Since most warranties are explicitly for "manufacturer's defects", I would venture to guess they would not lol


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> Since most warranties are explicitly for "manufacturer's defects", I would venture to guess they would not lol


&#8230;but wouldn't a movement that quit working be a defect?


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Their clasp choices and link/screws are subpar vs similar prices competition. I got lucky that mine fit well enough with needing unavailable micro adjustment. Many are not so lucky


The thing with GS bracelets, is yes there's plenty of play between the links. But have you worn a watch where there's no play in the links, it's uncomfortably rigid and the sides dig in to your wrist.

They're also fairly slim in profile and often basic oyster styles. With or with out the polished outer edge strips on the centre links.
So they do come across as generic and 'cheap', but they're super comfortable. I'd also say that the finishing is pretty good too.
One critism is the buckle. It's well engineered and perfectly functional, but it doesn't have micro-adjusts.























Seiko is good at this sort of thing. Just like it's movements aren't particularly accurate, they will tick on for years and years.
Likewise straps. The point of a strap is its meant to be comfortable. For example, everyone used to knock the SKX's 'jangle bangle' for being cheap and flimsey. It's was perfectly robust for its needs, but most importantly it was supremely comfortable.

Of course YMMV...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> &#8230;but wouldn't a movement that quit working be a defect?


Not necessarily. A manufacturer's defect means there was something wrong when it left the factory. If it breaks because someone hits it with a rock, that is not the fault of the manufacturer


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> The thing with GS bracelets, is yes there's plenty of play between the links. But have you worn a watch where there's no play in the links, it's uncomfortably rigid and the sides dig in to your wrist.
> 
> They're also fairly slim in profile and often basic oyster styles. With or with out the polished outer edge strips on the centre links.
> So they do come across as generic and 'cheap', but they're super comfortable. I'd also say that the finishing is pretty good too.
> ...


No argument here, mine fits fine. I am not one to care if there is bit of play in a bracelet unless it starts to pinch lol


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> No argument here, mine fits fine. I am not one to care if there is bit of play in a bracelet unless it starts to pinch lol


I've never had that pinching problem. But you're quite right of course our compatriots who have just a bit more Neadarthal in their make up and bushy arms. Probably do suffer from bracelet pinching 🤦‍♂️😆


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> It would be interesting to know if a company would replace (or repair) one of my watch movements (among other parts) under warranty if they broke during a bicycle crash&#8230;or even during routine hard riding.


Pffffffft
Crash your bike!? Who does _that?!_


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> Not necessarily. A manufacturer's defect means there was something wrong when it left the factory. If it breaks because someone hits it with a rock, that is not the fault of the manufacturer


While a rock is a bit extreme, hence the frailness rap&#8230;


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> Pffffffft
> Crash your bike!? Who does _that?!_


Lol, think I got some road rash pictures somewhere from when I learned driving through a fresh water puddle, on a turn, at speed, was a really bad idea. Helmet FTW, though it pained me to replace it&#8230;


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

JLS36 said:


> You aren't the only one interested in building a micro brand. What's app and a laptop along with some introductions go a long way.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


So you've cobbled together some designs - your personal vision for your watch and brand - and are applying what you've been given for prices and assume it applies to NTH watches?

Well, to that I guess I say I need to see your design so I, as a potential customer, can determine if they're even remotely the same. Although that might be subjective, it's a start.

From there, we have to make leap that you are dealing with the same factories, suppliers, MOQs, shippers, forwarders etc. that NTH does. Or at least some of the same.

Then we actually have to see what materials you'll be bringing to the table and what features you'll be specifying. Less subjective and more objective.

That might get us to a cost per article that can sort of be relied upon for comparisons - or at least discussions -
- sake.

I think you really have beef with the price that NTH watches go for.

For that part, then we need to talk about your time and what it's worth and your brand and how you do business because as a customer, how you do business is important. This would include who you staff, how many people you have on staff, if quality is important piece of your process, etc.

Without opening NTH books, though, there's really know way of knowing so now we have to pretty much rely solely on your educated guess. If you've looked at all of that, maybe I'll listen to your educated opinion. If on the other hand, your "educated guess" consists of only of what you "learned" when getting some quotes for a watch that you want built then that "education" ain't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Pssst.. I homaged yer homage&#8230; Sporkene..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude! What is this??? It looks awesome!!!

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I think it's a Nakomi Spork dial, at least. I've been looking at putting together my own Seiko because I can't get all the features I want in a watch. Don't know if it can be done.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Dude! What is this??? It looks awesome!!!
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


It was a spare parts build, it used to be three other mods. It probably would've been cheaper to buy one of yours. And my QC blows! Opened it three times chasing cat hair&#8230;

Full list of parts:









SKX007 SRPD Flat Sapphire Crystal For Sloping Bezel Inserts | CT124


Check out this incredible Flat Sapphire Crystal that is specially designed to work with ceramic sub sloping insert on the SKX007 SRPD Models.




usa.crystaltimes.net













NMK904 3 O'Clock SKX007/SRPD Watch Case : Polished Finish


It's time to build the watch of your dreams! The namokiMODS NMK904 3 O'Clock SKX Watch Case is ideal for building a complete mod. Designed to fit all original and aftermarket SKX007 mod parts, and made with drilled lugs for that quick strap change, our NMK904 3 O'Clock SKX Watch Case is perfect...




www.namokimods.com













Watch Dial: Spork Black Finish


Collectors of older Seiko divers will remember this one - the infamous Spork diver-pilot-spoon-fork all rolled into one with its iconic dial that looks suspiciously similar to some Sinn pilots. With its 4 o'clock date window, a movement running a black date wheel will make for a real stealthy...




www.namokimods.com













Watch Hands: Pilot White Finish


Look ma, new hands! We love how blocky and legible these Sinn-inspired sword-shaped hands are, they're perfect for those pilot watch builds. Remember, larger surface area = more lume! Comes in a set of hours, minutes and second hands. Hands Measurement (in mm):H/M/S: 8.5/12.5/12.5 Available in...




www.namokimods.com













Ceramic Insert - 007 Sub Black - Luminous Green


Seiko Mods - DLW Watch Modification Part - Ceramic bezel insert for Seiko SKX007 SKX009 SKX011




www.dlwwatches.com













Bezel - SKX007/SRPD LX - Brushed Steel


DescriptionFunction - 120 Clicks & UnidirectionalMaterial - 316L SteelFinishing - Brushed Steel ApplicationSeiko SKX007, SKX009 & SKX011 seriesSeiko 5 SRPDxx series (SKX007 replacements) Comes WithBezel Gasket x 1 pcGasket from the original Seiko bezel will work too Complete your mod with the...




www.dlwwatches.com













SKX 007/009/173/175 Black Brushed Stainless Steel Lumed Chapter Ring


Please Note: In order to Guarantee Proper Alignment of the Chapter Ring. Our Chapter Rings do not have a tab and will need to be installed with 1mm dial dots or equivalent which are NOT included.This is our Proprietary Product. New Black Brushed Stainless Steel Lumed Chapter Ring for the Seiko...



lcbistore.com













22mm Super-O Boyer Watch Band compatible with Seiko Diver SKX007, Brushed V-Clasp Button Double Lock


For Seiko or simply upgrade your Seiko Diver SKX007, SKX009 & SKX011 watches. Seiko SKX007 watch band replacement by MiLTAT. 316L stainless steel Super-O Boyer watch band has curved end piece, perfect fit for your Seiko Scuba Diver SKX007 models. This item includes generic Seiko Dia. 2.5mm...




www.strapcode.com





Crown is from Artiface Horoworks, though his website is buggy for me right now&#8230;

It really is the crack of watch collecting.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Had one of those "not sure I should be proud or say sorry" moments yesterday...
> 
> My marketing guy, Josh, has a little boy, Ari, who turns 5 tomorrow. They had his birthday party yesterday.
> 
> ...


My 17 year old has a nice little 2 watch starter collection. But now he is working and making some cash and I think it won't be long for 2 to become 3.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

captainmorbid said:


> It was a spare parts build, it used to be three other mods. It probably would've been cheaper to buy one of yours. And my QC blows! Opened it three times chasing cat hair&#8230;
> 
> Full list of parts:
> 
> ...


i miss the modded seiko days. good times.


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

The Watcher said:


> i miss the modded seiko days. good times.


That's what Islanders are for 
Marc SKX clones turn-up on eBay at about 50% of retail. A bargain set of components.


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## WandaRobertson (Aug 9, 2021)

Wow, looks great!


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Lab4Us said:


> My guess is the astronomical prices and the fraillness of main line automatics scare a lot away, and most are afraid of micro brands.
> 
> Not like I would wear a mechanical doing serious mountain biking&#8230;G-Shock all the way. As someone mentioned above, the tough solar battery and multiband 6 for spot on accuracy don't hurt either. Even my Apple Watch took two serious bicycle spills at speed with me and didn't lose a beat. I wear mechanicals for the nostalgia. As long as my routine bicycle street rides don't affect them, they're what I'll wear.


I wear a mechanical when pounding the downhill mtb trails with no ill effect.

My only concession is I sport one of my cheaper ones...Hamtun or the like. It's not so much about the movement crapping out due to the vibrations as it is smashing it against something hard when I inevitably handlebar or launch..

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> It appears I just snagged the last no-date Meteora linen dial, as it now shows as sold out after I placed my order just now. Originally I resisted the 38mm size, but my recent Islanders (salmon, Robins Egg blue and fluted dark blue) not to mention several Smiths, adjusted my size range.


Haven't seen you in these parts for a while. Welcome back. Here to stay, or just popping in to let us know you're still alive and buying all the watches?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> In my experience, people are quite wrong about the "frailness" of mechanical watches. I'm an electrician by trade, and all of my autos are/have been worn to work(the Tourby hasn't, and probably never will be). Hard knocks are inevitable. Hammer drills and full size rotary hammers, sawzalls, hammers, chiseles and all sorts of other tools are utilized.
> 
> Is a quartz tougher? Sure. Less moving parts. But I have _no_ issues wearing a watch with a Miyota, ETA, Sellita or the like to do tough work.
> 
> As I said previously, my G was/is for the truly _dirty_ work.


My Scorpene has gone flying off my wrist at least 2, if not 3 times, one of which it went skidding across a patio of paver stones. Not only did those falls not affect the performance of the movement, I can't even find any marks on the watch.

I took my Odin Blue on vacation. I wore it while ATV riding and cliff-diving. No affect on timekeeping.

Neither is a very scientific way of testing a movement's durability, but they're good enough to satisfy me that the watches I make are tougher than I am, and likely to shrug off any abuse I'm likely to throw at them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> It would be interesting to know if a company would replace (or repair) one of my watch movements (among other parts) under warranty if they broke during a bicycle crash&#8230;or even during routine hard riding.





Mediocre said:


> Since most warranties are explicitly for "manufacturer's defects", I would venture to guess they would not lol





Lab4Us said:


> &#8230;but wouldn't a movement that quit working be a defect?





Mediocre said:


> Not necessarily. A manufacturer's defect means there was something wrong when it left the factory. If it breaks because someone hits it with a rock, that is not the fault of the manufacturer


An interesting dilemma, one which I haven't had to think about for a while, if ever. But, since it's been brought up...

Our warranty, like most, specifically excludes scenarios involving clear abuse of the watch.

That said, if someone were to contact us because the movement stopped running, how are we to know that it was because the watch owner was wearing it while chopping wood, trail riding, operating a jackhamer, etc?

Even if the case showed clear signs of rough use, with dents and scratches, I don't think we'd refuse to provide warranty support, because, A) we wouldn't be in a position to say for certain that the exterior marks are "proof" of the sort of abuse which would cause the movement to stop and B) I calculate that the value in providing support outweighs the costs we're likely to incur replacing or servicing movements in those extremely rare scenarios.

We've sold thousands of watches. We don't replace or repair many movements. I think it's reasonable to assume one of two things must be true - either our customers aren't typically torturing their watches, or those watches that are being tortured have refused to give up the ghost, at least so far.

Based on experience, I'm more concerned with scenarios involving someone who decided to play home watch repair / modification (and in some rare cases, professional watch repair). The parts damaged as a result have been the most common cause of our more frustrating experiences providing post-sale support.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


> It appears I just snagged the last no-date Meteora linen dial, as it now shows as sold out after I placed my order just now. Originally I resisted the 38mm size, but my recent Islanders (salmon, Robins Egg blue and fluted dark blue) not to mention several Smiths, adjusted my size range.


Hey, good to see you around here. Hope all is well on your end,

Terrible news about smaller watches - I can only imagine your collection will be growing exponentially...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> The thing with GS bracelets, is yes there's plenty of play between the links. But have you worn a watch where there's no play in the links, it's uncomfortably rigid and the sides dig in to your wrist.
> 
> They're also fairly slim in profile and often basic oyster styles. With or with out the polished outer edge strips on the centre links.
> So they do come across as generic and 'cheap', but they're super comfortable. I'd also say that the finishing is pretty good too.
> ...


Only judging by the pics, the bracelet doesn't strike me as being "cheap", though pics are no way to judge, and I suppose the assessment of "cheap" needs to be relative to the cost of the watch.

That said - I personally think Seiko really excels at case design, as demonstrated by these pics. Knowing that GS's cases are not only well designed, but also extremely well-finished, I can understand someone being disappointed to have a bracelet that lets the rest of the package down, if that were the situation.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

captainmorbid said:


> It was a spare parts build, it used to be three other mods. It probably would've been cheaper to buy one of yours. And my QC blows! Opened it three times chasing cat hair&#8230;
> 
> Full list of parts:
> 
> ...


See, considering a mod like this is how I ended up just buying a Scorpene. Decision-making process went like this:
Sinn 857 - nice watch a touch too large, way too expensive.
Seiko Spork - way too large and collectible pricing is too expensive.
Priced out a mod build, someone else doing the build - about what a NTH Scorpene would cost, larger case.
Self-built mod - save a couple $100s, but still based on an SKX case, and no warranty, factory coverage, etc.

Ended up just buying a Scorpene and calling it a day. Done plenty other mods before and since, but this one was all, "Why bother - the watch I want to build is already done... with a better movement, in a smaller case, professionally built, plus warranty, etc....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> It was a spare parts build, it used to be three other mods. It probably would've been cheaper to buy one of yours. And my QC blows! Opened it three times chasing cat hair&#8230;
> 
> Full list of parts:
> 
> ...


I hadn't heard of Namoki before. I really do love what you put together. I like the case better than Seiko's 4 o'clock crown case designs.

It's interesting that they sell the case without the case back or bezel, and I'm guessing without the crystal. Seems like a truly "open-architecture" foundation for building a one-off Seiko mod, if they can even be considered mods if you're buying all the parts separately, rather than starting with an assembled watch.

In order to spare myself from trying to figure out what it cost you, not including whatever value you put on your time, do you mind sharing the total cost of the build?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> See, considering a mod like this is how I ended up just buying a Scorpene. Decision-making process went like this:
> Sinn 857 - nice watch a touch too large, way too expensive.
> Seiko Spork - way too large and collectible pricing is too expensive.
> Priced out a mod build, someone else doing the build - about what a NTH Scorpene would cost, larger case.
> ...


I've been through this exercise a few times myself, and come at it from a few different angles.

When my Scorpene was out on loan for review, I missed it so much I started looking at mod parts, thinking I'd cobble together something similar, before I regained my senses, and realized I'd be getting my Scorpene back.

I don't make a habit of asking my vendors to break down our cost of an assembled watch into its constituent parts' costs. I trust my vendors to treat me fairly, and I understand they need to make a profit by marking up our components' costs.

But because we sometimes need to request (and pay for) un-assembled parts, and we've had to apply a retail price to some of those parts, the exercise led to understanding the value in having someone else doing the assembly, testing, and QC, but also the value in having parts which are produced and purchased in bulk.

It's certainly possible to find reasonably well-made and well-finished parts, at a reasonable cost, which one could use to assemble a fairly good one-off build. The BSHT guys and others do it all the time.

But when you start to consider the value of the time spent sourcing and assembling components (I think the BSHT guys are paying close to $100 per gilt relief dial), the lack of a manufacturer's warranty, the uncertainty about the true water resistance, and the relatively limited choices in available component designs (compared to a brand's ability to simply make whatever they want to make), it becomes very difficult to argue that a do-it-yourself build is a better alternative if what you want (or close enough) already exists.

All of which of course goes back to the silliness of the "specs for the price" debates. If specs and components are all that matter to you, and you don't accept that the work we put into design, assembling, testing, QC, and support has any value, then by all means, go out and buy all the parts and components you need to assemble your own watch, as that will almost certainly cost you less (not putting any value on your own time) than any watch you might buy which comes pre-assembled.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Polar Barracuda
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I hadn't heard of Namoki before. I really do love what you put together. I like the case better than Seiko's 4 o'clock crown case designs.
> 
> It's interesting that they sell the case without the case back or bezel, and I'm guessing without the crystal. Seems like a truly "open-architecture" foundation for building a one-off Seiko mod, if they can even be considered mods if you're buying all the parts separately, rather than starting with an assembled watch.
> 
> In order to spare myself from trying to figure out what it cost you, not including whatever value you put on your time, do you mind sharing the total cost of the build?


I've done complete builds with Namoki stuff, and it is very adaptable. Case of your choice, crown at 3 or 4, crown guards or no; polished, brushed, blasted, or PVD. Get the bezel you want, and then flat or sloped insert, with either low (flat insert) or high crystal (sloped insert) to match. Choice of signed crown styles, choice of caseback surface treatment or slim caseback with less WR. Chapter ring to match build, dial and hands, movement... one-stop shopping. I think for one build I did, I was in for closer to $500 than $400, total parts bill.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Best of:

This is a Namoki sloped bezel with no-bevel high domed crystal. Second pic shows the profile, which was exactly what I was after. Bonus points: BSH Brolex dial, L&H h-link bracelet.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I hadn't heard of Namoki before. I really do love what you put together. I like the case better than Seiko's 4 o'clock crown case designs.
> 
> It's interesting that they sell the case without the case back or bezel, and I'm guessing without the crystal. Seems like a truly "open-architecture" foundation for building a one-off Seiko mod, if they can even be considered mods if you're buying all the parts separately, rather than starting with an assembled watch.
> 
> In order to spare myself from trying to figure out what it cost you, not including whatever value you put on your time, do you mind sharing the total cost of the build?


There is an ever expanding selection of case shapes, which does not help me save money. I do prefer the 3 o'clock shape, mostly. The "hobby" is drifting away from straight mods and becoming "builds" with next to zero Seiko parts, though I have about a dozen Seiko 5s that I modified because they aren't diver shaped.

Alright, cost if I were to do it again(not including taxes/duty/shipping) $450 usd. Probably $550ish all in.

Close to Scorpene money, but without the "joy" of doing the fitting myself.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Who called Tropics Monday?


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Only judging by the pics, *the bracelet doesn't strike me as being "cheap",* though pics are no way to judge, and I suppose the assessment of "cheap" needs to be relative to the cost of the watch.
> 
> That said - I personally think Seiko really excels at case design, as demonstrated by these pics. Knowing that GS's cases are not only well designed, but also extremely well-finished, I can understand someone being disappointed to have a bracelet that lets the rest of the package down, if that were the situation.


I wholly agree, it isn't cheap. It's very well thought out and finished. But I certainly do understand why some people might think that it's cheap, or cheaper than the case

The links do have a lot of play, and are slim and light. So if you come from a place where you think only bracelets that are engineered with no play and have super tight 'fit' (part integration) tolerances, and have a substantial heft to them are what count as high quality, (think modern Rolex GMT jubilee). Thinking Seikos bracelets aren't high quality then makes sense. 
Especially with your point about comparison to the case, with it's razor sharp edge definition on the black mirror polishing, and the bevels, brush work, _design_, and astonishing wrist presence.

But like most things, Seiko takes a different approach to things.
It aims for comfort and lightness, the opposite of 'engineered' and heft. 
Then I find the finishing is excellent. The burnish and evenness of the brush work, and the bevels and polish are beautiful and obviously hand done.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

This is crazy timing as I've been looking at these parts and what's available for the past week or so. 

I'd like a matte black dial and painted indices. 
Date or Day/Date at 3 o'clock or Date only at not 3 o'clock. 
Don't want the date or day to eliminate the lume plot in its location. 

For my vision, the dial appears to be the limiting factor. I'd like a larger case like the Samurai or Turtle but pretty much these parts are for SKX and few other cases. 

Nakomi makes an N1 (U1) dial that looks pretty cool. Thought about pairing that with white mil-spec hour/minute hands and a red second hand. Knurled bezel and crown, black aluminum or steel insert. I don't know, just some ideas.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Haven't seen you in these parts for a while. Welcome back. Here to stay, or just popping in to let us know you're still alive and buying all the watches?


Won't bore you with the personal details, medically things have been truly weird. As for watches, a bunch of affordables arrived today, Monday is the day parcels stack up in the Post Office over the weekend. Just having fun keeping the watch economy humming. Would have even more fun if watchmakers would only assemble ones I want to buy and if Seiko would get their heads out of their posterior and lower their new sky high prices and raise their movement beat rates to compete with the 9015. Currently hinting to Marc at LIW to issue his Islander homages with seafoam green and yellow dials, since you refuse. He sold out Salmon and Robins Egg blue inside several hours and I was alert and lucky enough to get one of each at awesome prices.Really like affordable 9015s.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Hey, good to see you around here. Hope all is well on your end,
> 
> Terrible news about smaller watches - I can only imagine your collection will be growing exponentially...


Tried to stay above 40mm for a long time, with some exceptions, but lately there have been several 36-38mm that look great, with my favorite 90xx movements that I have splurged on and really liked in the metal on a 7.5 inch wrist&#8230;Astor-Banks Fortitude, etc. There will probably be more down the road.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


> Tried to stay above 40mm for a long time, with some exceptions, but lately there have been several 36-38mm that look great, with my favorite 90xx movements that I have splurged on and really liked in the metal on a 7.5 inch wrist&#8230;Astor-Banks Fortitude, etc. There will probably be more down the road.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> There is an ever expanding selection of case shapes, which does not help me save money. I do prefer the 3 o'clock shape, mostly. The "hobby" is drifting away from straight mods and becoming "builds" with next to zero Seiko parts, though I have about a dozen Seiko 5s that I modified because they aren't diver shaped.
> 
> Alright, cost if I were to do it again(not including taxes/duty/shipping) $450 usd. Probably $550ish all in.
> 
> ...


$550 is new DevilRay money.

Which is sort of my point.

I'm assuming the watch has a Seiko NH35 inside?

If the DevilRay seems expensive to someone, let them try to build something with equivalent specs and components themselves (not identical, necessarily, just more or less equivalent). For the same money, we can assemble a DevilRay for you, and include the QC, testing, and warranty, at no charge. Our watch will probably have better specs and quality, unless someone is out there selling really well-made 500m WR cases.

Do the same exercise, with the NTH Subs - go find all the components, and build it. You're probably closer to $600, with lower specs (probably only 200m WR), and probably lower quality. Okay, you saved $100, but you got lower specs, lower quality, no warranty, no QC, no testing, and you spent the time scouring the innerwebz looking for the parts, waiting on them to arrive, putting them all together, etc.

So what's the vig on paying us to do it all for you? $100, max, and less, if you consider quality, and the warranty, and the value of your time.

I'm not crapping on anyone's build, just wondering if peeps who mess about with the "specs for the money" nonsense have ever gone through this exercise. Who cares if some other brand appears to be selling the same specs and components for less - try building your own for less than what we (or they) charge, and making sense of it.

In that context, I think we're striking a fair bargain with what we sell, and what we charge for it.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> In that context, I think we're striking a fair bargain with what we sell, and what we charge for it.


^This

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> $550 is new DevilRay money.
> 
> Which is sort of my point.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I'd make it happen if you release a XL Scorp.

Also, I should build me a Nevilray&#8230; heh..

The quality of all these parts is about equal with the SRP turtles. NTH is at minimum 3 notches up.

I just like making watches more than buying watches right now. I've built or modded 39 of them. I now window shop for design notes, to build watches that I don't want to pay list for, 3 Soxas, one BB, a few Sinn homages, a Panerai/Omega mashup&#8230; and one NTH homage&#8230;

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Exactly. I'd make it happen if you release a XL Scorp.
> 
> Also, I should build me a Nevilray&#8230; heh..
> 
> ...


Oh, I get it. Lots of guys in the hobby go through a "I just like to tinker" phase. I'm not knocking it. If you like to do it, then by all means, assemble one-offs 'till the cows come home.

For me and others, we'd rather just buy the milk from the grocery store, and not fuss about milking cows to get our USRDA of dairy. Most of us understand we're paying for the convenience of not wading through cow dung early in the morning.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Oh, I get it. Lots of guys in the hobby go through a "I just like to tinker" phase. I'm not knocking it. If you like to do it, then by all means, assemble one-offs 'till the cows come home.
> 
> For me and others, we'd rather just buy the milk from the dairy section of the grocery store, and not fuss about milking cows to get our USRDA of dairy. Most of us understand we're paying for the convenience of not wading through cow dung early in the morning.


I've probably gotten dung smudges on indices&#8230;

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> $550 is new DevilRay money.
> 
> Which is sort of my point.
> 
> ...


You can buy a San Martin with nh35 for $258, a obris Morgan with similar specs but more expensive parts(dlc and ceramic) for $379, you can buy a Zelos titanium with miyota 9015 for $449. You can find parts and movements on eBay to make a 9015 powered watch for under $200, that's just a quick search. Your play as value makes little sense your play as quality and quality service at a price premium makes more. Nth watches sell good and have a niche, however that niche isn't value.






























Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Oh, I get it. Lots of guys in the hobby go through a "I just like to tinker" phase. I'm not knocking it. If you like to do it, then by all means, assemble one-offs 'till the cows come home.
> 
> For me and others, we'd rather just buy the milk from the grocery store, and not fuss about milking cows to get our USRDA of dairy. Most of us understand we're paying for the convenience of not wading through cow dung early in the morning.


Sooooo.... Did you have that GIF floating around on your hard drive? Or did you specifically go hunting for it for that response?

Inquiring minds would like to know.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> Sooooo.... Did you have that GIF floating around on your hard drive? Or did you specifically go hunting for it for that response?
> 
> Inquiring minds would like to know.


Cmon you don't know the cow from Kung Pow enter the fist?!?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

JLS36 said:


> You can buy a San Martin with nh35 for $258, a obris Morgan with similar specs but more expensive parts(dlc and ceramic) for $379, you can buy a Zelos titanium with miyota 9015 for $449. You can find parts and movements on eBay to make a 9015 powered watch for under $200, that's just a quick search. Your play as value makes little sense your play as quality and quality service at a price premium makes more. Nth watches sell good and have a niche, however that niche isn't value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> You can buy a San Martin with nh35 for $258, a obris Morgan with similar specs but more expensive parts(dlc and ceramic) for $379, you can buy a Zelos titanium with miyota 9015 for $449. You can find parts and movements on eBay to make a 9015 powered watch for under $200, that's just a quick search. Your play as value makes little sense your play as quality and quality service at a price premium makes more. Nth watches sell good and have a niche, however that niche isn't value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you build me a DevilRay for $200 with eBay parts which includes labor and warranty?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> Cmon you don't know the cow from Kung Pow enter the fist?!?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> You can buy a San Martin with nh35 for $258, a obris Morgan with similar specs but more expensive parts(dlc and ceramic) for $379, you can buy a Zelos titanium with miyota 9015 for $449. You can find parts and movements on eBay to make a 9015 powered watch for under $200, that's just a quick search. Your play as value makes little sense your play as quality and quality service at a price premium makes more. Nth watches sell good and have a niche, however that niche isn't value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's that word Paul Pluta uses to describe a certain sort of watch? 
Quality does its own walking and talking. I'm not the slightest bit interested in 'specs'.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> What's that word Paul Pluta uses to describe a certain sort of watch?
> Quality does its own walking and talking. I'm not the slightest bit interested in 'specs'.


Interesting I'm going to Google that now as it's unfamiliar to me.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> You can buy a San Martin with nh35 for $258, a obris Morgan with similar specs but more expensive parts(dlc and ceramic) for $379, you can buy a Zelos titanium with miyota 9015 for $449. You can find parts and movements on eBay to make a 9015 powered watch for under $200, that's just a quick search. Your play as value makes little sense your play as quality and quality service at a price premium makes more. Nth watches sell good and have a niche, however that niche isn't value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I can cobble together a 92 mustang to outrun a C6 Z06 Vette in a 1/4 mile for at least a couple passes for $7k thanks to a 200 shot and backwoods weight reduction

That does not make it equal to the Vette, and it does not make the C6Z a poor value. It is one of the best performing sports car values on the market


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Im getting so confused the past day or two...

Is there another f*cking argument running with JLSwhatshisface?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> And I can cobble together a 92 mustang to outrun a C6 Z06 Vette in a 1/4 mile for at least a couple passes for $7k thanks to a 200 shot and backwoods weight reduction
> 
> That does not make it equal to the Vette, and it does not make the C6Z a poor value. It is one of the best performing sports car values on the market


Not sure what any of that means, just saying elshan makes the same quality watch with more expensive parts for much less.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Im getting so confused the past day or two...
> 
> Is there another f*cking argument running with JLSwhatshisface?


Sort of

It started with chocolate chip pancakes and progressed to V8's on nitrous. Not sure if it is an argument or a spirited discussion of some of my favorite indulgences


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Not sure what any of that means, just saying elshan makes the same quality watch with more expensive parts for much less.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


It means I took an online class and found someone selling a cheaper car on the internet so I said screw it and enjoyed more chocolate chip pancakes


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> It means I took an online class and found someone selling a cheaper car on the internet so I said screw it and enjoyed more chocolate chip pancakes


Life is far to short to ever turn down any opportunity for chocolate chip pancakes, (well cookies in my case) it's a serious point 🤨


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Life is far to short to ever turn down any opportunity for chocolate chip pancakes, (well cookies in my case) it's a serious point 🤨


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> Not sure what any of that means, just saying elshan makes the same quality watch with more expensive parts for much less.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Who is Elshan?
Does he pay his employees?
Does he sponsor a forum in WUS?
Can we get some samples to verify the quality of his products?
What brands does he sell his products under? If it's not NTH, maybe create your own thread for Elshan?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Saswatch said:


> Who is Elshan?
> Does he pay his employees?
> Does he sponsor a forum in WUS?
> Can we get some samples to verify the quality of his products?
> What brands does he sell his products under? If it's not NTH, maybe create your own thread for Elshan?


Once again I'm missing half of this conversation....
But I'm fairly certain Elshan owns Zelos.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> It means I took an online class and found someone selling a cheaper car on the internet so I said screw it and enjoyed more chocolate chip pancakes


Not sure why you feel the need for side loaded insults, but consider it noted.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Not sure why you feel the need for side loaded insults, but consider it noted.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Insults? I just thought we were battling to see who could say more irrelevant and unnecessary things in the NTH thread.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

JLS36 said:


> Not sure what any of that means, just saying elshan makes the same quality watch with more expensive parts for much less.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Insults? I just thought we were battling to see who could say more irrelevant and unnecessary things in the NTH thread.


Oh, and I would not insult online classes. Many of mine were online because I was working.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

"Chocolate Chip Corvette" is one of my favorite Bowie songs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> ...If specs and components are all that matter to you, and you don't accept that the work we put into design, assembling, testing, QC, and support has any value, then by all means, go out and buy all the parts and components you need to assemble your own watch, as that will almost certainly cost you less (not putting any value on your own time) than any watch you might buy which comes pre-assembled.





JLS36 said:


> You can find parts and movements on eBay to make a 9015 powered watch for under $200, that's just a quick search.


Yes. $200 is less than what any pre-assembled watch you might buy with a 9015 is likely to cost.

Thanks for finally admitting and agreeing with what I've been saying all along.

Your apology is accepted.

Go in peace.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Hey, good to see you around here. Hope all is well on your end,
> 
> Terrible news about smaller watches - I can only imagine your collection will be growing exponentially...


If Yankees' behemoth collection actually grew at an exponential rate &#8230;. There would be literally no watches for the rest of us. And just imagine the WOTs about global watch production constraints.

Good to see ya, @yankeexpress ;!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ok, I will stop the silly posts.

Tomorrow will be an NTH Tuesday! Post up!


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Ok, I will stop the silly posts.
> 
> Tomorrow will be an NTH Tuesday! Post up!


Perfectly sane to me..... 😏


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Oh, I get it. Lots of guys in the hobby go through a "I just like to tinker" phase. I'm not knocking it. If you like to do it, then by all means, assemble one-offs 'till the cows come home.
> 
> For me and others, we'd rather just buy the milk from the grocery store, and not fuss about milking cows to get our USRDA of dairy. Most of us understand we're paying for the convenience of not wading through cow dung early in the morning.


Those damn Holsteins think they can do anything they want!
Other than that, I'm lost for words.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Lab4Us said:


> View attachment 16049357


I'm quite sure the number nine tastes like....









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

NTH Tuesday!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#NTHtuesday


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

#TikudaTuesday


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone who's been eagerly awaiting the availability of the v.2 Nacken Modern Blue...

They were finally delivered this past Friday. Dan completed QC over the weekend, and we shipped them all to retailers yesterday.

Pic for attention.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

NTHTUESDAY!










I also got off my arse and swapped the black strap out for the orange. @HammyMan37 the one doc tricked me into in this thread


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I also got off my arse and swapped the black strap out for the orange. @HammyMan37 the one doc tricked me into in this thread
> 
> View attachment 16050499


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Okay. . .


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## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> I also got off my arse and swapped the black strap out for the orange. @HammyMan37 the one doc tricked me into in this thread
> 
> View attachment 16050499


Hahaha....I'd say persuaded you. Well he was right. It looks awesome!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> Okay. . .
> 
> View attachment 16050599


That looks outstanding!!



HammyMan37 said:


> Hahaha....I'd say persuaded you. Well he was right. It looks awesome!


Thanks! Persuaded is definitely a better word choice. Either way, I'm glad he did! Hoping to get it to the beach this afternoon


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> The thing with GS bracelets, is yes there's plenty of play between the links. But have you worn a watch where there's no play in the links, it's uncomfortably rigid and the sides dig in to your wrist.
> 
> They're also fairly slim in profile and often basic oyster styles. With or with out the polished outer edge strips on the centre links.
> So they do come across as generic and 'cheap', but they're super comfortable. I'd also say that the finishing is pretty good too.
> ...


frankly i love the look of it, goes with the case well imo. If it fit well when sized then id have no problem.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Honestly I still don't know if I'd like this over the blue swiftsure









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Juuust out of curiosity, do the 2k1 subs and Atticus share a dial size? Asking for a friend…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Juuust out of curiosity, do the 2k1 subs and Atticus share a dial size? Asking for a friend&#8230;


Rusty could more easily tell you than I could. But I think his dials are a tad bigger than mine, counter-intuitively, given the smaller case size. It may be close enough to be compatible, though.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Lab4Us said:


> NTH Tuesday!
> 
> View attachment 16050139
> 
> ...


Is this the Dark Rum Antilles? Looks great. I was partial to the Absinthe Azores but the Antilles is growing on me, so now I cannot decide.

How does it wear compared to the NTH Subs? I remember people saying that it wears larger due to the (thinner) inner bezel thing making the watch face look larger, but it is still a 40mm case. Is the dial size (dial opening) larger than the NTH Subs?


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> For anyone who's been eagerly awaiting the availability of the v.2 Nacken Modern Blue...
> 
> They were finally delivered this past Friday. Dan completed QC over the weekend, and we shipped them all to retailers yesterday.
> 
> ...


Ordered mine this morning!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

gokce said:


> Is this the Dark Rum Antilles? Looks great. I was partial to the Absinthe Azores but the Antilles is growing on me, so now I cannot decide.
> 
> How does it wear compared to the NTH Subs? I remember people saying that it wears larger due to the (thinner) inner bezel thing making the watch face look larger, but it is still a 40mm case. Is the dial size (dial opening) larger than the NTH Subs?


Wears much thinner, almost like a dress watch. I currently have both on NATO straps so comparing that way. Even on bracelet, it seemed the tropics wore thinner. Oh, yes, it's the dark rum. As for exact measurement, no idea, but the fact the bezel is inside the glass on the Antilles makes it appear bigger, I'm sure. I also have the Azores absinth&#8230;can't go wrong with either as far as I'm concerned. The Tropics just seem to hug my wrist (7 inches) better than the 2k1s (have a Swiftsure and Thresher as well), at least with the NATO straps. I have to cinch the strap down an extra hole on the 2k1s to make them hug my wrist - I like my watches tight, not flopping around on my wrist. In the end, either is awesome, don't think you'd be disappointed!

Edit&#8230;p.s. I wear trifocals and can easily read all dials.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> Is this the Dark Rum Antilles? Looks great. I was partial to the Absinthe Azores but the Antilles is growing on me, so now I cannot decide.
> 
> How does it wear compared to the NTH Subs? I remember people saying that it wears larger due to the (thinner) inner bezel thing making the watch face look larger, but it is still a 40mm case. Is the dial size (dial opening) larger than the NTH Subs?





Lab4Us said:


> Wears much thinner, almost like a dress watch. I currently have both on NATO straps so comparing that way. Even on bracelet, it seemed the tropics wore thinner. Oh, yes, it's the dark rum. As for exact measurement, no idea, but the fact the bezel is inside the glass on the Antilles makes it appear bigger, I'm sure. I also have the Azores absinth&#8230;can't go wrong with either as far as I'm concerned. The Tropics just seem to hug my wrist (7 inches) better than the 2k1s (have a Swiftsure and Thresher as well), at least with the NATO straps. I have to cinch the strap down an extra hole on the 2k1s to make them hug my wrist - I like my watches tight, not flopping around on my wrist. In the end, either is awesome, don't think you'd be disappointed!
> 
> Edit&#8230;p.s. I wear trifocals and can easily read all dials.


Compared to the 40mm NTH Subs - my opinion is that the Tropics wear a little larger, despite nearly identical dimensions. Compared to the 2K1's, I'd say a bit smaller.

Chalk the difference in how they feel up to design. The Tropics are all-dial (or, all-crystal, if we're trying to be accurate in our descriptions), which makes them feel wider than the 40mm Subs.

And while the Tropics' case is only moderately thicker (12.47mm counting the case back stamping - 11.77 without it), I think the taller, more upright case walls make them feel more than 0.27-0.97mm thicker than the Subs.

Lug length is the same. If there's a difference in feel there, I haven't noticed it.

Assuming the 40mm Subs "feel" like they're 40mm, then I'd say the Tropics feel more like they're 41mm-42mm.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

I always forget my 2k1 subs are bigger than what most call “the V1 and V2 subs”…


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> I always forget my 2k1 subs are bigger than what most call "the V1 and V2 subs"&#8230;


By almost 4mm, man!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> By almost 4mm, man!


Yeah, but I don't wear "baby G" size watches  &#8230; and it just seems a watch called a sub should be substantial!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> I always forget my 2k1 subs are bigger than what most call "the V1 and V2 subs"&#8230;


I didn't want to contradict you. I figured you were talking about the 2K1's.

I don't have a 2K1 in the office with me, for comparison, so I'll defer to your assessment.

I think part of my judgment of the Tropics is just my own personal preference for more organic case shapes, like the Subs, 2K1s and DevilRay. I do like my Azores very much, but visually, I think the Tropics case isn't nearly as deceptive when it comes to disguising its thickness. There's not a whole lot you can do to disguise the thickness of an internal bezel case design, at least not when the case has that sort of "sauce pan with legs" thing happening.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Lol, don’t worry about contradicting me, I was raised in a time where debate was considered healthy and honorable. I’ll try to get some photos of both, front and side, for comparison and post them up. Especially since the slackers are failing miserably on NTH Tuesday!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Lol, don't worry about contradicting me, I was raised in a time where debate was considered healthy and honorable. I'll try to get some photos of both, front and side, for comparison and post them up. Especially since the slackers are failing miserably on NTH Tuesday!


i only have the one nth


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Returning to last week's topic - NTH website shipping options...

So, I *THINK* we've got the new website shipping options sorted out now. If you're in the UK or EU, and your cart total is under £135 or €150, you should see "DHL International Parcel Direct Duties Paid" as a shipping option at checkout.

As the name sort of implies, that option will add the VAT to your shipping cost, but should result in your shipment not being held up for customs clearance, and you not getting any nasty bill for the VAT and / or a customs brokerage fee from the courier.

As a bonus, if you calculate what the VAT adds, and back that out of it, the actual shipping cost should be much more economical than FedEx International Priority, which was previously the only option we were offering for orders going outside the USA.

For everyone else, no matter where you are, you should be pleased to see that we're now offering more options, including some much less expensive shipping options at checkout.

I'm still not sure the pop-up messages are showing on the checkout page, but I've got my web dev team working on that one.

So...yeah, once again, the people have spoken (by "people", I mean the handful of people who complained about the cost of shipping a $50 bezel insert to Sweden, or wherever), and we listened. Let it not be said that Old Man Vail is a stubbornly cold, stone-hearted bastard.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> Lol, don't worry about contradicting me, I was raised in a time where debate was considered healthy and honorable. I'll try to get some photos of both, front and side, for comparison and post them up. Especially since the slackers are failing miserably on NTH Tuesday!


Here. I'll help. 
40mm sub. 40mm Azores. 43.75mm 2K1.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Returning to last week's topic - NTH website shipping options...
> 
> So, I *THINK* we've got the actual shipping options sorted out now. If you're in the UK or EU, and your cart total is under £135 or €150, you should see "DHL International Parcel Direct Duties Paid" as a shipping option at checkout.
> 
> ...


i wanna send it through sweden to louisiana


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Here. I'll help.
> 40mm sub. 40mm Azores. 43.75mm 2K1.
> View attachment 16051160
> View attachment 16051165


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i only have the one nth


And you posted it! So you succeeded at #NTHTuesday!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


>


----------



## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

#NTHtuesday









Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> View attachment 16051196


i see you also wear shoes


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i see you also wear shoes


Occasionally, though less often than pre-work from home times


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Occasionally, though less often than pre-work from home times


im just gonna get mine surgically grafted to my feet


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

NTH Tuesday...









Some fungi that we found while exploring in Nana's garden


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I am liking this NTHTuesday program. It needs to become a tradition!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> NTH Tuesday...
> View attachment 16051218
> 
> 
> ...


i dont go for brown usually but that one has grown on me a lot and i hate it


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i dont go for brown usually but that one has grown on me a lot and i hate it


You would hate it better on your wrist.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> You would hate it better on your wrist.


thats not untrue

i really wanna save for a farer lander gmt though


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i dont go for brown usually but that one has grown on me a lot and i hate it


I don't normally go for brown mushrooms either. When a student in Leeds we ate a lot of mushrooms that had a very slight purple blush to the undersides, psilocybe something or other... Oh.. you mean the watch!? Yeah, I really like the brown too 😏

On a tangent ...
I really liked what was done to the silver dial Dolphin posted on here the other day, it had the brown cuda' bezel mod'ed on. I forget who did it, but it looked the nuts of the nuts.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> That looks outstanding!!
> 
> Thanks! Persuaded is definitely a better word choice. Either way, I'm glad he did! Hoping to get it to the beach this afternoon


The follow through

Headed that way...










And the beach was great!


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Honestly the worst thing about the cuda is it makes me want a black bay

The Swift reminds me of a super ocean for some reason so I can't win









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Also I prefer the pip being lumed than the triangle or both as it is on the cuda

A silly preference I gained after I got my ocean one. 

All the lume is big and pip is easy to find. Easy to find the small lume marker when everything is big

I’m gonna pretend the brown cuda doesn’t exist


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Also I prefer the pip being lumed than the triangle or both as it is on the cuda
> 
> A silly preference I gained after I got my ocean one.
> 
> ...


I'll help. Not my pic


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> I'll help. Not my pic
> 
> View attachment 16051476


Well if I ever get rid of the cuda due to a black bay then maybe I'll hunt a brown one down

For now I'll add it to the list of stuff I'm not buying

This is next, with the plan being to sacrifice the steinhart toward this goal as the nth is better than the steinhart









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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

I find the “loud” rotor of the myiota charming. I can’t see my movement but a good flick and bring the watch to my ear and I can hear it

Don’t sound like a quartz

It’s a charm I like frankly


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I've had loud movements before, I consider my NTH to be fairly quite


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> I've had loud movements before, I consider my NTH to be fairly quite


Yeah it's not bad, I gotta give a real good shake and bring it to my ear to really hear it

I think I've read complaints in general of this being a bad thing

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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I'm too late for NTH Tuesday so how about a Dutch NTH Wednesday Sunrise?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

gavindavie said:


> I'm too late for NTH Tuesday so how about a Dutch NTH Wednesday Sunrise?
> 
> View attachment 16051582


I'll join you!


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Rhorya said:


>


if they want it loud then they should fit a turbine engine to the movement to power it


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Hmmmm&#8230;I'm detecting a theme&#8230;


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Lab4Us said:


> Hmmmm&#8230;I'm detecting a theme&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 16053836
> 
> ...


Correct.... I'm onto you Lab4Us... you wear your watch on your right arm... cunning my friend...but you didn't fool me

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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Used to like blue lume but I like c3 more









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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yesterday








Today








👍


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Oohhhhh, Barracuda.










-Rusty

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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

rpm1974 said:


> Oohhhhh, Barracuda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like someone's ready to ship


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Blueracuda.

Counting Heinekan's V2 night shot, I think we just accounted for the entire 'cuda collection.

ETA: Ahh, wait. Rusty's is a V2 as well. So still no V1 vintage.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Random thought... I just spent about 3 minutes with my mouse hovering over the "add to cart" button for the Barracuda Polar White on the NTH site. Walked myself back from the ledge because I'm really holding out for some sort of v2 Amphion. Maybe an AVG v2. Or, and hear me out here... an Amphion Polar White v2, with a blue anodized bezel (see blueracuda pic above).

Now go ahead and tell me that wouldn't be haute. I'll be over in the corner looking for 49 friends.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> Oohhhhh, Barracuda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lots of ..... watches ??


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Random thought... I just spent about 3 minutes with my mouse hovering over the "add to cart" button for the Barracuda Polar White on the NTH site. Walked myself back from the ledge because I'm really holding out for some sort of v2 Amphion. Maybe an AVG v2. Or, and hear me out here... an Amphion Polar White v2, with a blue anodized bezel (see blueracuda pic above).
> 
> Now go ahead and tell me that wouldn't be haute. I'll be over in the corner looking for 49 friends.


BNIB Amphion Vintage Gilt on eBay right now. Not my listing.

1 of 50 no-dates.









New in Box NTH Amphion Watch Black Dial & Bezel - BBJ1623 | eBay


At Bristol Bay, we are proud of the service and quality of the products we provide. We are not experts, but we do our best to check each item for blemishes, take pictures, and describe the item as best we can.



www.ebay.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Random thought... I just spent about 3 minutes with my mouse hovering over the "add to cart" button for the Barracuda Polar White on the NTH site. Walked myself back from the ledge because I'm really holding out for some sort of v2 Amphion. Maybe an AVG v2. Or, and hear me out here... an Amphion Polar White v2, with a blue anodized bezel (see blueracuda pic above).
> 
> Now go ahead and tell me that wouldn't be haute. I'll be over in the corner looking for 49 friends.


BTW - which Polar White?

I suppose it doesn't matter, there's only 1 piece each remaining in the US.

1 date / 1 no-date.

Doubt we'll make more for a while, if ever.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random thinks, after popping in to see my best friend, Sean, at his job yesterday...

He recently got a promotion (with a nice bump in pay) to service manager at the car dealership where he's been working for most of the past decade, not far from where we live. On top of his salary, he gets a bonus, which is a percentage of profits from both the service and parts departments.

I was in the car today, driving home after dropping my son off at work. His car's been in the shop for months. There aren't any aftermarket suppliers for the parts the car needs. You can only get the parts from the dealerships, and the mechanic's been having a hard time getting them. Apparently it's happening industry-wide lately. Sean confirmed it.

I've been stopping into the mechanic's shop to check on the status of my son's car, once a week, for months. I recognize the cars he's been working on, and sometimes I'll ask about them, especially if it seems like the cars are there too long.

More and more, with newer cars, he's been finding that he can't fix them, no matter what he does, even if he can get the parts. It seems like there's always some computer-related issue that only the dealership can sort out.

So, he has to buy the parts he needs from the dealership. And sometimes he still ends up having to get the dealership to come to his shop and get the car, because even with OEM parts, he can't fix it. Only the dealership can.

So I'm driving home today, thinking about all this, and I start thinking back to 2000, not long after I got out of the Army, and my first job in Financial Services. There was this younger guy, Jeremy, who got hired not long after me. His old man owned a few car dealerships upstate. I asked him about it, since I've always been interested in family businesses.

"It's the only business where people expect you not to make a profit."

"What?"

"All the customers know what the dealership paid for the cars. They all come in expecting to pay one dollar over dealer invoice."

That made me think back to buying my GTI last fall. I was talking shop with the sales-guy, Kevin, asking him if he sold new and used, or just used.

"Just used."

"Why?"

"There's no money in new cars. I make better commissions on used cars."

Of course he does. Nobody knows what the dealership pays for used cars. There's no "dealer invoice". They can actually make a profit on used cars.

I've known for years that there's more profit for car dealerships in the financing of new cars than there is in the actual sale, which is why I always refinance car loans from dealerships right away, at lower rates. Remembering what Jeremy told me, it made sense when Kevin told me what he did. Knowing Sean and three other guys who also work in the auto repair industry, I know there's more profit in the parts for and servicing of cars than there is in selling new cars.

It all makes sense. If consumers won't let car dealerships make a profit selling new cars, then in order for those businesses to survive, they have to find other revenue streams. Sure, maybe you "got a great deal" on a new car, by chiseling them down on the sticker price. But what's your APR on the loan, how much were those "dealer prep fees", and how much are you going to be paying for parts and repairs, when the time comes?

There's no free lunch. One way or the other, we all end up paying.

It reminds me of the folks who go on the internet, talk to a few watch factories, and think they know what it costs to make and sell watches. The expectations of the watch market seem to be approaching that of new car buyers - brands aren't allowed to actually make a profit selling the product.

I've been watching this developing trend the last few years, of the big brands squeezing independent watchmakers out of the service industry. It's what ETA was doing, when they cut off Cousins UK's parts account.

Every year, Rolex and Omega turn the screws a little more on my local independent guy. They send inspectors to his little shop, which he rents, demanding he make major renovations. They tell him he has to buy all new (and expensive) equipment. They're making him re-test to keep his brand certifications - and thus his parts accounts.

This guy is Swiss-trained (as in, he attended watchmaking school in Switzerland), a WOSTEP guy, a past president of the watchmakers' association. He told me that the bench tests Omega and Rolex expect him and all their other certified guys to periodically take have a 70% failure rate. This guy's been earning a living fixing watches for 30 years, and he's nervous going into these tests. His business and livelihood hang in the balance.

It's been obvious to me why it's happening. Just like auto manufacturers, the big brands now see post-sale support as an alternative revenue stream, a way to juice their profits, in light of reduced margins on the sale of the actual product. They want to own the post-sale space, and so they're squeezing everyone else out.

But what are small, boutique brands supposed to do, if the market won't let the brands make a profit on the sale of the actual product?

Most don't have in-house watchmakers, because why would we, if we're using movements that don't require much if any servicing? Even if we do have in-house watchmakers, and if we are using movements that require regular servicing - there's no guaranteeing we'll have access to replacement parts down the road.

What's everyone going to do when all the independent watchmakers go out of business? What happens when all the boutique brands give way to the big conglomerates, and they're all that's left?

You'll buy your watches from the Chinese factory brands? Who's going to fix them? What's that going to look like? What happens when even the US-based, after-sales support centers disappear, because they can't get parts, and watchmakers don't want to work for minimum wage?

No free lunch.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> BNIB Amphion Vintage Gilt on eBay right now. Not my listing.


Appreciate the heads-up, but I already own an AVG  A v2 Amphion of some sort would be enough justification to buy another one.



docvail said:


> BTW - which Polar White?


With Date. Aesthetically, I agree that the no-dates look better. But I've found that I regularly look at my watch for the date, and it bugs me not to have one. So I choose function over style.



docvail said:


> What's everyone going to do when all the independent watchmakers go out of business? What happens when all the boutique brands give way to the big conglomerates, and they're all that's left?
> 
> You'll buy your watches from the Chinese factory brands? Who's going to fix them? What's that going to look like? What happens when even the US-based, after-sales support centers disappear, because they can't get parts, and watchmakers don't want to work for minimum wage?


You're exactly right. IMO major watch brands have misjudged a part of their audience, and in the process they're shooting themselves in the foot. There's basically two types of folks who buy these things: People who don't care about watches but who buy watches as a conspicuous display of wealth. And people like us.

Watch brands are thinking of the former when they calculate that if they can kill off the independent watchmaker business, they can make more money on servicing.

But people like us at some level value otherwise impractical mechanical watches because they're a relic of a time before planned obsolescence and disposable everything. In a world of $1000 phones that get replaced every two years, of clothing that barely lasts a year, people (usually men) like us value anything that might still just work the way it's supposed to in ten years, or twenty, or God forbid when we're gone and our wives pass our things on to our sons. It doesn't matter if it's a watch, or a tool, or a Carhart winter jacket, or a good set of boots. Heck, there's a 68 year old sewing machine sitting in the corner of the room I'm writing this in right now. My wife was using it just last week. I fixed it myself when we bought it for $35 at a thrift store, and now the thing runs like it's brand new. I respect that. And by the way, that's also why the only sort of quartz watch that most of us have any interest in owning is a G-Shock. Different technology. Same philosophy.

The less maintainable mechanical watches become, the less reason there is for people like us to own them. That's where the major brands are miscalculating.

But then again, what do I know?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Monopolies tend to fail spectacularly… eventually without intervention… quite quickly via regulation.

My local watchmaker, also “Swiss certified” spends his days replacing batteries and selling Casio/Seiko/Citizen/Bulova. I suspect that when he retires, his business will retire as well. 

It’s quite sad.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah, there's a lot of talk about right to repair. The problem is, they can still make it hard for you. They can, as Rolex and Omega appear to be doing, just make the "certification" process for independents harder and harder. Additionally, they tie that certification to a parts account. 

I trust an independent like Archer more than I do Omega service. I've never had to return a watch back to Archer for a second attempt nor have I heard of anyone having to. Meanwhile, forums are replete with stories of second and third attempts by Omega to repair THEIR OWN WATCHES and THE SAME PROBLEM or ANOTHER PROBLEM THEY CREATED. I have several other watches from other Swiss brands that I don't bother to send in to authorized service centers because there are too many stories of these centers returning watches unrepaired or with entirely new problems. Sad part is, the required parts aren't available outside these authorized service centers. 

I've had an ongoing issue with some emissions control systems on my vehicle for coming up on a year. I've spent about six months waiting for the same two - or one of the same two - parts to come in at the dealer. They've replaced the same two parts a total of two times after replacing the original parts fall of last year. So now I'm waiting for these two parts again. One is a sensor and sure, electronics fail. The other is a hard part that should last 100k miles plus easy but sure, there can be a bad part from time to time. Their supposition is these parts have failed again meaning I've gone through three of them in 23,068.5 miles. Come on.

Thankfully, this is under warranty. My worry is that at some point, they'll lose interest and just say they've tried everything and stop working on it. The people have no idea what they're doing. They have no concept of the troubleshooting process and even with probably $100k+ plus of hardware and diagnostic equipment, have no idea (or desire maybe?) to use it in a fashion that will ensure success. The SAs and techs use non-standard terms when talking to me about this problem and don't seem to be calling out the same part the DTCs point to. Makes me wonder, are they even ordering and replacing the required part?

I don't have a problem with controlling emissions. I have a problem with a POS system where the parts are stupid expensive and can't even be purchased from the dealer and there's no aftermarket support yet. Why would the aftermarket support when they're balls to the wall just fulfilling orders as the OEM? It didn't have to be this way. There are other simpler methods using different specific components but they're more expensive so of course, they weren't specified.

This is really big in the farm equipment arena now. Farmers having to stare at tractors that cost them six figures doing **** all in the GD north 40 because of some ****ing $200 sensor that they can't ****ing order because the GD manufacturer doesn't stock, doesn't even have it, and insists these farmers operate on the manufacturer's time frame because they'll only allow an "authorized" service provider to work on it. The farmers in some cases can't even diagnose the problem because the software to interface with the onboard computers is completely proprietary.

I don't mind paying for service, even factory service, if it's quality service and even if it's not cheap. I just want my stuff fixed and returned to me in working order in a timely fashion. I don't think that a manufacturer should retain all rights to repair any product for all time in perpetuity. I don't think that they should be the bottleneck in the repair, service, or maintenance chain or be the only provider for the service equipment and parts required to keep a product in operation. If they want to setup a reasonable and workable certification process for these repairs to take place adequately and competently outside of their direct purview, we can talk about that but don't use the process to arbitrarily restrict the availability of parts, and diagnostic software.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Slant said:


> Looks like someone's ready to ship


Let's go!

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Coriolanus said:


> Random thought... I just spent about 3 minutes with my mouse hovering over the "add to cart" button for the Barracuda Polar White on the NTH site. Walked myself back from the ledge because I'm really holding out for some sort of v2 Amphion. Maybe an AVG v2. Or, and hear me out here... an Amphion Polar White v2, with a blue anodized bezel (see blueracuda pic above).
> 
> Now go ahead and tell me that wouldn't be haute. I'll be over in the corner looking for 49 friends.


Friend 2 for the amphibion polar white V2 with blue bezel. I would buy that as fast as I can say shut up and take my money! The only reason I didn't grab a Polar Cuda is the handset. Those hands kill my entire soul. I just can't get myself to like snowflake hands even a little, and believe me, I have tried, because I dig the rest of it.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Indie shops can still repair brand new vehicles, the issue is many aren't big enough, or simply don't have the revenue to have the equipment to do so. My automotive mentor and one of my best friends, is one. He's THE guy in my town for Euro cars. 2020 Benz? No problem, regardless of what the issue is. The amount of money it takes for him to have the equipment necessary to operate that way is SICKENING however. Dude is so good, I've witnessed our local Mercedes dealer bring him a new / in warranty car that a factory trained master M-B technician (and entire service depart for that matter) couldn't fix. Kept dropping out on a cylinder. Most new 'mechanics' are really computer jockeys. They said to him, and I quote "we've done everything, the diagnostics say it's fine, but it intermittently drops cylinder 7". "Did you put a coil on that cylinder?" "Of course not, the computer says it's fine!"
"Uh huh... hmm, looks like your miss moved to cylinder 5 when I swapped coils. Maybe you guys should learn to work on cars instead of staring at the computer screen that says good to go". I died, instantly. Completely lost it, because my VERY first thought was, hmm, sounds like an intermittent coil issue. Bet they haven't put a new coil on it. I don't own any diagnostic equipment, not even a code reader. Scott taught me how to hear / feel / smell / sense what's actually wrong or malfunctioning with a vehicle, and based on symptoms, where to start and how to fix it, not looking on a computer screen. Its sad to see the indie shops in the position of not being able to work on newer vehicles though, it's extremely lame. For reference, I've seen our BMW dealer do the same with a car they couldn't fix. Scott is a rare bird. We raced together for years, and I learned quite a bit hanging with him constantly and blowing my stuff up regularly. Not that it's super relevant to the repair bit, but man, I appreciate that guy taking me under his wing and teaching me so much. Kind of like a second dad to me in a way. But, the more hotrod, do reckless stuff and doesn't discourage you from being an idiot kind of dad. Not fast enough? PUT MORE NITROUS ON IT!  Legitimately one of the finest human beings I've ever met, an honest mechanic who doesn't rip people off and is a legitimate master at his craft. He's a dying breed.

Now, about that Amphibion Polar White V2 date ...

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> BNIB Amphion Vintage Gilt on eBay right now. Not my listing.
> 
> 1 of 50 no-dates.
> 
> ...


I stupidly thought, for about 3.7 seconds, that SOMEHOW, it had a ceramic bezel, looking at the photos. Then, I realized it was just protective covering and my dreams of a ceramic bezel NTH were shattered ?

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Random thinks, after popping in to see my best friend, Sean, at his job yesterday...
> 
> He recently got a promotion (with a nice bump in pay) to service manager at the car dealership where he's been working for most of the past decade, not far from where we live. On top of his salary, he gets a bonus, which is a percentage of profits from both the service and parts departments.
> 
> ...


I know the auto dealer/aftermarket world well. To avoid over speaking my allowed zone, you are spot on. They have to make money somewhere

Oddly, what I have learned is the same reason I had no problem paying full retail for Antilles or straps from NTH either. Feels fair and reasonable to me, and I love your warranty proposition. I will pay for good customer service any day.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> Random thinks, after popping in to see my best friend, Sean, at his job yesterday...
> 
> He recently got a promotion (with a nice bump in pay) to service manager at the car dealership where he's been working for most of the past decade, not far from where we live. On top of his salary, he gets a bonus, which is a percentage of profits from both the service and parts departments.
> 
> ...


The watchmaker who's trying to sort out the stem issue in my Eterna KonTiki (which is becoming a pig because he can't get a part), is Rolex and Omega certified.

We had a very similar conversation. But he said after a decade of taking watch repairs in house, those two very recently started reversing it. (They're who he's got personal experience of).

Apparently, from what I remember of what he said. They realised it was actually just more hassle than it was worth. Think of all the different countries sending stuff back, customers complaining, waiting forever, watches getting lost, etc.
Plus being sued by customers. A bigger problem than it sounds apparently. For example. Customer saying at the AD, I want this serviced but it's got a special feature, say a dial or ink colour that's as rate as hens teeth and makes it worth 10x as much. The predictable happens and they get it back pristine, polished, and utterly ruined though working beautifully watch. Apparently it was becoming a real problem for them, lack of communication between AD speaking whatever language, and Swiss watchmaker.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Doc, coincidentally you posted "brand's aren't allowed to actually make a profit selling the product." on the same day I hit purchase on a watch for 29.99 GBP that had a RRP of 675 GBP, how can there be ANY money being made on that?
Admittedly it was a brand I had never heard of, for sale on a discount bulk buy sort of site, and no matter how much my head said "it was NEVER worth 675 pounds" the innate Scottish skinflint in me screamed "its a BARGAIN, you are about to save 95%!"


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ah, newer vehicles. 
This is the main reason I've yet to buy anything else since I purchased my Silverado brand new in '07.

I picked my truck up with 13 total miles on it way back when. It's got about 180k on it now(quite a few years of different work vehicles has kept that total "lower"). Outside of tires, brakes, oil changes and bulbs, it's_ never(_knock on wood) needed to go into the shop. One random $15 part, dont even remember what it was, needed replaced about 10 years ago. I diagnosed that myself with an OBD2 reader I got for about $30, picked the part up at AutoZone and swapped it in about 15 minutes.

And I'm not nice to my truck either. This is Texas, we drive fast as it is. But most of my drive to and from work is on the NTTA Expressways. Pay to Play so to speak, so the local cops and state troopers tend to ignore it. I run out my truck daily, driving 80-90mph like the a-hole I am.

I love my truck. And I'm gonna rock it till the wheels fall off.

That reminds me.... time for a new set of tires soon.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

cghorr01 said:


> I stupidly thought, for about 3.7 seconds, that SOMEHOW, it had a ceramic bezel, looking at the photos. Then, I realized it was just protective covering and my dreams of a ceramic bezel NTH were shattered ?
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Heh&#8230; ceramic&#8230; shattered.

'Nuff said.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

rpm1974 said:


> Heh&#8230; ceramic&#8230; shattered.
> 
> 'Nuff said.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pun intended lol

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> Ah, newer vehicles.
> This is the main reason I've yet to buy anything else since I purchased my Silverado brand new in '07.
> 
> I picked my truck up with 13 total miles on it way back when. It's got about 180k on it now(quite a few years of different work vehicles has kept that total "lower"). Outside of tires, brakes, oil changes and bulbs, it's_ never(_knock on wood) needed to go into the shop. One random $15 part, dont even remember what it was, needed replaced about 10 years ago. I diagnosed that myself with an OBD2 reader I got for about $30, picked the part up at AutoZone and swapped it in about 15 minutes.
> ...


Highway mileage is actually very easy on an engine / transmission etc. Even driving fast. Vehicles primarily driven on the highway last much longer as a general rule.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

cghorr01 said:


> Highway mileage is actually very easy on an engine / transmission etc. Even driving fast. Vehicles primarily driven on the highway last much longer as a general rule.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Don't disagree with you.

But I did say most, not all. Most but not all of the shops/warehouses I've been attached to for work are in heavy commercial/industrial areas. Roads beat to death by 18 wheelers and other heavy commercial vehicles. Roads patched back together with duct tape and bubble gum by the city. Old train tracks. Back roads that really arent roads at all. Plus heavy loads cause wear and tear, this is a truck. Full beds of stone, or hardwood/lumber, or sheet rock, tools, etc.

Plus, I _did _say I'm an ahole. I dont gradually get up to that 90mph. I put my foot into that sonofabitch!


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> Don't disagree with you.
> 
> But I did say most, not all. Most but not all of the shops/warehouses I've been attached to for work are in heavy commercial/industrial areas. Roads beat to death by 18 wheelers and other heavy commercial vehicles. Roads patched back together with duct tape and bubble gum by the city. Old train tracks. Back roads that really arent roads at all. Plus heavy loads cause wear and tear, this is a truck. Full beds of stone, or hardwood/lumber, or sheet rock, tools, etc.
> 
> Plus, I _did _say I'm an ahole. I dont gradually get up to that 90mph. I put my foot into that sonofabitch!


 are we related down the line somehow? Same. From all my time racing, I drive the HELL out of my cars/ bikes. That environment would be tough on suspension components, so I'd definitely say you've gotten excellent service life out of those things. If an engine / transmission is well maintained, driving it hard isn't necessarily in and of itself particularly hard on them. Modern drivelines are pretty durable.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Doc, coincidentally you posted "brand's aren't allowed to actually make a profit selling the product." on the same day I hit purchase on a watch for 29.99 GBP that had a RRP of 675 GBP, how can there be ANY money being made on that?
> Admittedly it was a brand I had never heard of, for sale on a discount bulk buy sort of site, and no matter how much my head said "it was NEVER worth 675 pounds" the innate Scottish skinflint in me screamed "its a BARGAIN, you are about to save 95%!"


Perhaps this is two different sides of the same problem, or just two related problems, or whatever, but...

The "never pay retail" mentality seems to be what's led to the "always on sale" phenomenon. Action (seeking a discount) leads to equal and opposite reaction (making up a stupidly-high MSRP, in order to mark the product down to an RRP, "regular retail price").

But that's a vicious cycle. Once consumers learn MSRP is meaningless, the discount from MSRP to RRP is likewise value-less. That gives way to the new expectation - you guessed it - a discount from RRP. It starts the proverbial "race to the bottom".

It doesn't help that many big watch brands, especially the Swiss brands, have painted themselves into a corner by raising prices every year, regardless of demand, and getting caught up in over-production. Just as it is with clothing, the product needs to be moved, eventually.

I'm sure I've mentioned this here, but I worked in my uncle's clothing store between college semesters. He explained the path less-loved products typically take - from manufacturer to wholesaler to the display window of the retail store, then to the discount rack, then to some sort of close-out specialist, then to a discount chain like Ross or TJ Maxx, then to that chain's clearance rack, then to someone I guess we'd call a "blow-out specialist", then to a thrift store, or flea markett, or eBay, maybe, and then to the garbage dump.

These industries are reduced to numbers games. The manufacturers and retailers realize a certain percentage of consumers will pay full price to be on the cutting edge of fashion and conspicuous consumerism. They know a certain percentage will wait for items they want to go on sale, and search those items out.

They know a certain percentage of what gets produced will sell out at full price and in a short time, another percentage at a discount and take a little longer, a smaller percentage at closeout / blowout, etc, etc, etc.

But that cycle of gradual price reduction ruins any perception of prestige a brand may have built up over decades or more in business. It can turn a prestige brand into a discount brand inside of a decade.

Some brands have more ability to avoid this vicious cycle than others, by limiting production, raising prices, and strictly controlling the distribution of the product. I've read about some luxury brands destroying product rather than letting it get discounted. That's easier to do with a leather bag than it is with a mechanical watch.

Not wanting to get overly philosophical, nor political, but there are macro-trends at work in the background, here - the widening of the "wealth gap" between the haves and the have-nots gets reflected in the businesses which serve each.

There are winners and losers on both sides of this game. This just feeds into the viciousness of the cycle - both businesses and consumers are somewhat forced into adapting their habits to the practical realities the other party faces.

Which brings me back to boutique businesses like mine. I see the writing on the wall. If my customer base includes both people who value specs for the price, and people who value intangibles like quality support, and I see the gap between them widening, I have to make appropriate adjustments to my business, in order for it to survive.

You see where this is going - I can't under-price the Chinese factory brands. I have to beat them in other ways, ways which are going to inexorably push the price upwards. So we focus on design, quality, support, etc.

The people who work for me, and deal with customers, speak English as their first language. We may outsource the production and assembly of parts, but we're doing everything else in-house, here in the US. We make the purchasing and ownership experience not just painless, but enjoyable.

Back to my friends in the auto-service industry. I went to school with Sean, but through Sean, I've met Dennis, who worked with Sean in a garage after high school, but ended up getting his degree in finance and accounting. He spent the last two decades as a consultant to the automotive service industry. He made a fortune showing auto repair businesses how to maximize their profitability.

When I talk to Dennis about this stuff, he says, "when people kvetch about the price, raise it, and keep raising it until no one complains any more." His point is that eventually, all the customers who don't really "get it" will leave, and the business will be left with the customers who do get it, the ones who understand and appreciate the true value being delivered. The product and service the business delivers will evolve to serve those remaining customers better.

Every time I see someone say my business is no different than the next brand's, because we're "all getting the same components from the same suppliers", it makes me think I should completely revamp my business - get CNC-machined cases and other steel parts from Germany, buy more expensive movements which are going to require servicing, have Dan assemble and service everything here in Philly, etc.

Instead of trying to sell 1200-1500 watches per year, at $500-$700, we'll make and sell 500-600, and sell them for $2000-$3000. It's more revenue, more profit, more prestige, and less BS.

Like they say in the car business, there's an arse for every seat.

But, of course, if every microbrand follows that course, it will just further polarize the industry, eventually eliminating the multitude of choices which now exist between the entry-level mass market and the "luxury" brands.

Y'all want to keep that from happening? Support small, boutique brands that deliver more than just the most specs for the price. As long as there are customers who want what they're selling, the brands will stick around. If the market keeps pushing back against these brands making a profit, and the owners can't make a living running the business, they'll disappear.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

cghorr01 said:


> Friend 2 for the amphibion polar white V2 with blue bezel. I would buy that as fast as I can say shut up and take my money! The only reason I didn't grab a Polar Cuda is the handset. Those hands kill my entire soul. I just can't get myself to like snowflake hands even a little, and believe me, I have tried, because I dig the rest of it.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Yeah. It's not that I don't like the snowflake hands. But after a while with my blueracuda, I started getting a little tired of people asking for a closer look at my watch then saying, "Oh. I thought it was a Tudor for a second." Yeah, I know the history behind snowflake hands, and yeah, I know that the sword hands of the Amphion are an homage to the MilSub. But right now, Black Bays are the first thing that comes to people's minds when they see snowflake hands.

But still... Polar White... blue bezel with alternating orange/lume for the major/minor indices (or vice versa)... If I had any photoshop skills at all, I'd mock one up.


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

Doc - Not sure if it's a glitch but LIW doesn't show up in the slide menu when you click on the [Find it from your nearest retailer] button.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> Doc - Not sure if it's a glitch but LIW doesn't show up in the slide menu when you click on the [Find it from your nearest retailer] button.


Thanks for the heads up. I'll send it to the marketing department to sort out.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

cghorr01 said:


> are we related down the line somehow?


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> Oohhhhh, Barracuda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


caught that sunburst effect real well. Usually not a fan but they did it well. looks like the dial plate is shinning through


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> Random thinks, after popping in to see my best friend, Sean, at his job yesterday...
> 
> He recently got a promotion (with a nice bump in pay) to service manager at the car dealership where he's been working for most of the past decade, not far from where we live. On top of his salary, he gets a bonus, which is a percentage of profits from both the service and parts departments.
> 
> ...


i gotta agree, i want your shop to be there in ten years. If i buy another watch or not. I want places to exist to service what i actually buy. I ordered that rubber strap for my steinhart and when it comes in i frankly dont wanna size it. It was expensive and i dont want to cut too much. Im taking it to my local shop and usually they just help people out but im going to insist i pay them something for their time. $20-40 I havnt shopped there in a while and i like their shop. Its nice to have a local place let alone a local place that will help you size **** for free even if you didnt buy from them

I want a good deal sure but i try not to be so short sighted


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> The watchmaker who's trying to sort out the stem issue in my Eterna KonTiki (which is becoming a pig because he can't get a part), is Rolex and Omega certified.
> 
> We had a very similar conversation. But he said after a decade of taking watch repairs in house, those two very recently started reversing it. (They're who he's got personal experience of).
> 
> ...


id think catalogue of your models and specs would prevent that. Not entirely cause **** happens but still. I would expect a watch made by the company would come back the way it was made, especially for luxury prices and limited production on top of that. That just seems extremely sloppy business practices.to me. Dont rolexuse serial numbers and such to keep track of watches as a way to tell against fakes? do other companies do that, seems like its a missed opportunity

That is if its not that rare of a thing to have happen, it should almost never happen


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Random thinks, after popping in to see my best friend, Sean, at his job yesterday...
> 
> He recently got a promotion (with a nice bump in pay) to service manager at the car dealership where he's been working for most of the past decade, not far from where we live. On top of his salary, he gets a bonus, which is a percentage of profits from both the service and parts departments.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's a never pay retail crowd. It's a crowd that is getting to be more well informed as industry and technology improve, prices and products increase in quality and decrease in cost. The path to products selling for less premiums is coming. Elimination of the intermediaries is facilitating this. Realtors and car dealers will likely be the next big shoe to drop and they will cease to exist, the only thing keeping them around are unions. The financial world has seen this trend for close to a decade. Transactional fees and management fees disappearing. This isn't a conscious effort to push out the little guy it's the evolution of technology doing it naturally. No doubt nth watches will continue for many years to come I don't think there is a threat so soon. But more cost aware consumers will continue to grow and brands will be forced to choose how they compete.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> I don't think it's a never pay retail crowd. It's a crowd that is getting to be more well informed as industry and technology improve, prices and products increase in quality and decrease in cost. The path to products selling for less premiums is coming. Elimination of the intermediaries is facilitating this. Realtors and car dealers will likely be the next big shoe to drop and they will cease to exist, the only thing keeping them around are unions. The financial world has seen this trend for close to a decade. Transactional fees and management fees disappearing. This isn't a conscious effort to push out the little guy it's the evolution of technology doing it naturally. No doubt nth watches will continue for many years to come I don't think there is a threat so soon. But more cost aware consumers will continue to grow and brands will be forced to choose how they compete.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


NTH is tackling the "never pay retail crowd" by offering reconditioned/refurbished watches at discounted prices. That's a pretty incredible feat for a small business dealing in watches if you ask me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> id think catalogue of your models and specs would prevent that. Not entirely cause **** happens but still. I would expect a watch made by the company would come back the way it was made, especially for luxury prices and limited production on top of that. That just seems extremely sloppy business practices.to me. Dont rolexuse serial numbers and such to keep track of watches as a way to tell against fakes? do other companies do that, seems like its a missed opportunity
> 
> That is if its not that rare of a thing to have happen, it should almost never happen


Re - getting parts for any / all watches...

There's a practical limit on how many replacement parts any brand can stock, and for what length of time. Suppose a brand orders 5% extra of everything, when ordering parts. Eventually, that 5% runs out (or get thrown out), and someone ends up being the 5% + 1 guy who doesn't get the replacement part he needs.

Re - replacing vintage parts, when they shouldn't...

This is becoming a thing as some vintage watches become highly-sought after collector's items, but only if they remain in "original" condition, with all original parts, which is NOT to be confused with NEW parts from the original manufacturer. Collectors will pay big bucks for an authentic gilt relief or "tropical" dial.

If some idiot somewhere doesn't realize that, and replaces the old, cracked enamel dial (or whatever) on a vintage watch that's just in for a basic service, they're inadvertently destroying the value of the watch, like someone re-upholstering the interior of a vintage Corvette. You just don't do it.

Rolex and some other brands have a policy of "cleaning up" old watches sent in for service, which is why a lot of collectors with rare vintage pieces won't send their watches in to be serviced by the brands.

I happened to witness one of these situations play out, in my local watchmaker's shop. A guy brought in a vintage "red text" Rolex Explorer, which would have been extremely valuable, had he not cheaped out and sent it to some ham-fisted charlatan, who said he could service it, but who actually tried to replace a bunch of original parts with aftermarket parts, which didn't even fit, and destroyed the value of the watch in the process.

My local watchmaker didn't even want to touch it. The guy literally brought the watch and a bunch of parts into the shop, in a bunch of little baggies. The other "watchmaker" he'd sent it to had literally dented the original acrylic crystal trying to jam a replacement bezel onto the mid-case, and scratched the mid-case all to hell when he pried the original bezel off, planning to replace the original crystal, which he apparently couldn't even get out.

I got the impression that whoever had worked on the watch, he wasn't a watchmaker, by any stretch. The guy told us some story about sending it to some guy who knew someone who knew his girlfriend, or something like that.

The watch would have been worth tens of thousands of dollars, had he just left it alone and done nothing to it. Instead, it became virtually worthless.

Check out this dial, crystal, and bezel. Would you replace any of this?










That was once my personal "birth year" Seiko Pogue, which now belongs to Rusty. All original parts. Looks like hell, but...ALL ORIGINAL PARTS.

I don't know what original Pogues are going for these days, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's ~$1,000.

Replace that dial, crystal, or bezel to make the watch look new, and the watch is worthless.

What about this? This dial was originally BLUE. I $hlt you not...


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Saswatch said:


> NTH is tackling the "never pay retail crowd" by offering reconditioned/refurbished watches at discounted prices. That's a pretty incredible feat for a small business dealing in watches if you ask me.


i agree, i was so close to buying the used blue swiftsure they had


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Re - getting parts for any / all watches...
> 
> There's a practical limit on how many replacement parts any brand can stock, and for what length of time. Suppose a brand orders 5% extra of everything, when ordering parts. Eventually, that 5% runs out (or get thrown out), and someone ends up being the 5% + 1 guy who doesn't get the replacement part he needs.
> 
> ...


Yeah i was thinking of the spider dials and such and yeah i wouldnt send something like that in. It makes sense that rolex will "fix" it. Its a unique collectors niche and the brand wont care about that. I was thinking about original parts in original condition and if those parts dont exist then wouldnt the obvious be servicing the movement and testing the water resist?

Hearing the phrase "know a guy" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up

That oris is pretty slick, so oxidation or something turned it yellow? thats a pretty extreme change and its so consistent it looks like it was on purpose


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> id think catalogue of your models and specs would prevent that. Not entirely cause **** happens but still. I would expect a watch made by the company would come back the way it was made, especially for luxury prices and limited production on top of that. That just seems extremely sloppy business practices.to me. Dont rolexuse serial numbers and such to keep track of watches as a way to tell against fakes? do other companies do that, seems like its a missed opportunity
> 
> That is if its not that rare of a thing to have happen, it should almost never happen


To take Rolex as an example, but the others are the same. You have no ability to specify what they do on a service if you send your watch to them.
For example you only want the movement serviced, that's not what they do. They return all serviced watches to new looking .
So if you have an ultra valuable patinated dial, they see an old dial and replace it. If it's got scuffs on the case, they don't see a lived watch, they polish it to new and ruin it.

It's turned in to a big problem. Rolex has so many valuable vintage models. That their blanket policy of - we decide how we restore your watch - was destroying a lot of what was valuable historic models.
Apparently they had so many people suing them, that they had to re-think.
This is all from the horse's mouth, as it were.

Edit: I see doc already answered this above


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Random thinks, after popping in to see my best friend, Sean, at his job yesterday...
> 
> He recently got a promotion (with a nice bump in pay) to service manager at the car dealership where he's been working for most of the past decade, not far from where we live. On top of his salary, he gets a bonus, which is a percentage of profits from both the service and parts departments.
> 
> ...


Maybe for some, but not all. Went to pick up one of my bikes yesterday, it was time for annual tune up and inner tube replacements. I had been eyeing a new one (Electra) that was around 1k. At the shop I inquired on delivery time. In black I could have it in Oct 22 (twenty two)&#8230;in pine green, Christmas of 22. Nothing fancy, 9 speed with 27.5 wheels meant to take a beating. Discussing with owner, he related there are more bikes shipping now than anytime in history and it now takes longer than anytime in history to get what you order - consumers OR proprietors.
He went on to relate his personal bike order - delivery of 2024 (twenty twenty four). Lol, told him I'd find some newer bike that I'd want before that wait was over. He said he probably will too.

Anyway, there are bikes folks more than willing to pay MSRP for without batting an eye, even having to wait a year(s) for delivery. I passed in this case because I already have two quality bikes and the one I was eyeing was kind of a mix of both (my 63 year old bones and muscles aren't feeling the MTB on some days). But for a 14 month wait, I can buy parts to adjust the fit&#8230;and have them delivered in a few days.

To bring this to close, I think folks will pay MSRP or close for quality. If car dealers wouldn't try to sell for 4-5k over invoice, they wouldn't have the problems they're having. I have no problem with a car dealer making $1-2k off me, depending on model. That is enough profit since they don't pay dealers invoice AND they get incentives for having cars on lot. There is a black book dealers use that gives TRUE dealer prices&#8230;don't fall for the xx over invoice spiel.

Cars are built in factories by robots, they are not handcrafted artistry that should cost $50k.

Just my .02.


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i agree, i was so close to buying the used blue swiftsure they had


I just pulled the trigger on the Amphion Commando that was in the Nearly New section. I was after a milsub-vibe watch and after a LOT researching I started looking for an Amphion. Not only were the NTH watches highly regarded but the service was renowned as well. I like that in a company and prefer to support the "little guy" if possible.

The Commando ticked all the boxes for me EXCEPT the bezel intsert. Once I learned NTH sold different bezel inserts AND the Kiger/ NTH Red Ronin bezel insert was available it was game over. I now have the watch and the insert on the way.

I did have some questions regarding the lume color, and Julie was super helpful and quick to respond.

So far it has been an excellent experience, and I feel I made the right choice.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Yeah i was thinking of the spider dials and such and yeah i wouldnt send something like that in. It makes sense that rolex will "fix" it. Its a unique collectors niche and the brand wont care about that. I was thinking about original parts in original condition and if those parts dont exist then wouldnt the obvious be servicing the movement and testing the water resist?
> 
> Hearing the phrase "know a guy" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up
> 
> That oris is pretty slick, so oxidation or something turned it yellow? thats a pretty extreme change and its so consistent it looks like it was on purpose


Blue dials will fade with time and sunlight.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Believe it or not, today is my first time wearing the v.2 DR bracelet.









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Believe it or not, today is my first time wearing the v.2 DT bracelet.
> View attachment 16056559
> 
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Really? I don't hate it myself lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

i really like this dlc bezel doc

the watch has all these points that shine and glisten and the bezel is just "dead" so to speak. I love it Its a real interesting texture to look at and contrasts against the whole watch


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Believe it or not, today is my first time wearing the v.2 DR bracelet.
> View attachment 16056559
> 
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


And&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> And&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


And it's harder to get onto the case than the rubber straps.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The DLC steel bezel is a positive feature to me. There are many other great features of my NTH watch but that one is rare these days. I positively reject the notion that for a watch to be "worth it" or "premium" it has to have a ceramic bezel. There are some cases where I appreciate a ceramic bezel but there are times when it doesn't work.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> The DLC steel bezel is a positive feature to me. There are many other great features of my NTH watch but that one is rare these days. I positively reject the notion that for a watch to be "worth it" or "premium" it has to have a ceramic bezel. There are some cases where I appreciate a ceramic bezel but there are times when it doesn't work.


I shy away from ceramic bezels because I am a clumsy SOB


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

[email protected] C said:


> I just pulled the trigger on the Amphion Commando that was in the Nearly New section. I was after a milsub-vibe watch and after a LOT researching I started looking for an Amphion. Not only were the NTH watches highly regarded but the service was renowned as well. I like that in a company and prefer to support the "little guy" if possible.
> 
> The Commando ticked all the boxes for me EXCEPT the bezel intsert. Once I learned NTH sold different bezel inserts AND the Kiger/ NTH Red Ronin bezel insert was available it was game over. I now have the watch and the insert on the way.
> 
> ...


Please post a pic once it's done. Sounds like a winner.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

How about a little overcast Saturday afternoon lume?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

W


docvail said:


> BNIB Amphion Vintage Gilt on eBay right now. Not my listing.
> 
> 1 of 50 no-dates.
> 
> ...


On my watch list....2 days left


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

Mediocre said:


> W
> 
> On my watch list....2 days left


I was eyeing that one as well!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

[email protected] C said:


> I was eyeing that one as well!












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

[email protected] C said:


> I was eyeing that one as well!


Get it and post pics here!


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I thought I'd give the DevilRay a turn at a Sunrise photo, this time its an NTH Sunday Portuguese sunrise. We are heading south, days are getting shorter but hotter, though once we turn into the Mediterranean its going to get properly HOT.


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

Mediocre said:


> Get it and post pics here!


Nope- purchasing the Commando took me out of the running. It's all you!


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

gavindavie said:


> ... its an NTH Sunday Portuguese sunrise.
> 
> View attachment 16059365


Beautiful! Good morning to you!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

gavindavie said:


> I thought I'd give the DevilRay a turn at a Sunrise photo, this time its an NTH Sunday Portuguese sunrise. We are heading south, days are getting shorter but hotter, though once we turn into the Mediterranean its going to get properly HOT.
> 
> View attachment 16059365


Great shot.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Listen while I play&#8230;my green Azores watch (as opposed to tambourine)&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone just sent me this screen shot.

Apparently the bidding got into the mid $600's.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Dog days of Summer&#8230;

Blaze


















Zee


















and Thor!


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Thanks to @davek35, I'll finally get to check out the new sub case in the flesh. BVBv2 inbound.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lunch at the Pearl brewery this NTH Sunday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Thanks to @davek35, I'll finally get to check out the new sub case in the flesh. BVBv2 inbound.


I'm betting this one will last at least a week or two.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

rpm1974 said:


> I'm betting this one will last at least a week or two.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was the old me.

The new me sells them on before they arrive.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Monday, Monday&#8230;again&#8230;


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Amphion Vintage Gilt today, with my current favorite book, Im loving this book so much! if you like Technical wreck Diving, WWII mysteries, treasure hunts, ship wrecks , then you will love this true story!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boo yah.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of Amphion Vintage Gilts - the auction for that one on eBay ends in 2 hours. It's up to $500 at the moment. Brand new, in box. Someone's gonna get a sweet deal...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Yesterday i took my 15 year old son to the King of Prussia Mall to go sneaker shopping for back to school. Of course i had to stop at all the watch boutiques while I was there, First we hit up the Tag boutique, the guy working there was very nice, he complimented my SMPc, and we spoke about the 41 and the 43mm Aquaracers, then he showed me this rare titanium case silver dial Monaco that is the only one in the US according to him, and this beautiful Carbon fiber and ceramic Tourbillion Chrono that is also 1 of 1. I had fun in the Tag shop, lots of cool stuff, and the guy like to talk watches.

Then we went next door to the Breitling boutique, the lady there couldnt be bothered with me. basically ignored us. But they had some super sweet Super Ocean Heritage chronos that i was drooling over.

Finally, and most importantly, we wet the large Tourneau store. They are so great there! @docvail , you know this store im sure.
Big shoutout to Maggie the sales accosiate there. she was super nice, and talked me out of selling my SMPc for a BB58. lol
she gave my son and I glass bottles of S. Pellegrino sparkling water, and let me try on some Tudor BB's, a Ceramic Omega dark side Speedy, a Carl Bucherer Scubatec Manta ray in Ceramic (super cool dial!), and of course a Rolex Submariner Date. I talked watches with her for about 30-40 mins, she is a real watch enthusiast, not just a sales person. I do love the Rolex Sub, and the Sub-C i played with was so sweet. honestly felt so much more delicate and flimsy than my Omega. I didnt see that coming.. I still want one though lol.

Anyway for fear of getting yelled at by my wife for watch shopping instead of back to school shopping, we took our sparkling waters, and bid farewell to Maggie.

I really like the chill attitude of the people in Tourneau. I feel like I could have tried on every watch in the store, and Maggie would have been totally fine with it. thats a great experience even though she knew i wasnt going to buy anything.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The Tourneau people are always really nice. To the point I sometimes feel bad not purchasing something. I only get to go when I'm traveling for work as there's nothing like it locally. Omega finally squeezed out the last authorized dealer years ago and I'm not driving four hours to have a chat. The most exciting news is a local - about 50 minutes drive - Rolex dealer now stocks Tudor watches. Probably because there are no Rolex watches available.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Yesterday i took my 15 year old son to the King of Prussia Mall to go sneaker shopping for back to school. Of course i had to stop at all the watch boutiques while I was there, First we hit up the Tag boutique, the guy working there was very nice, he complimented my SMPc, and we spoke about the 41 and the 43mm Aquaracers, then he showed me this rare titanium case silver dial Monaco that is the only one in the US according to him, and this beautiful Carbon fiber and ceramic Tourbillion Chrono that is also 1 of 1. I had fun in the Tag shop, lots of cool stuff, and the guy like to talk watches.
> 
> Then we went next door to the Breitling boutique, the lady there couldnt be bothered with me. basically ignored us. But they had some super sweet Super Ocean Heritage chronos that i was drooling over.
> 
> ...


Torneau in KOP mall is solid. There's an older gent there, I forget his name, but always enjoy talking shop with him. He's very knowledgeable, and fairly patient, in my observation.

For some reason I find myself mentally comparing the experience to that of visiting Govberg, in Ardmore's Suburban Square, and the young lady, who, in response to my asking which ones were the Oris "Big Crown Pilots", she said, "the ones with the big crowns."

Ask a stupid question...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That AVG on eBay...

Up to $510. Less than 30 minutes left...

Don't come in here and ask me to make more, and try to sell them for $700, if you're not willing to go to at least $600 on a BNIB piece today.

$510 is an absolute steal for that watch, gentlemen...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> That AVG on eBay...
> 
> Up to $510. Less than 30 minutes left...
> 
> ...


that is a great price! I wish i could have a second to store away for when my current AVG kicks the can. by far my favorite NTH


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> That AVG on eBay...
> 
> Up to $510. Less than 30 minutes left...
> 
> ...


The market will do as it does, but some folks forget that eBay charges sales tax now (if applicable in your state), and the bid price does not include the tax.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> Lunch at the Pearl brewery this NTH Sunday
> View attachment 16060550
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Dude! We love the Pearl brewery area!! Lived north of the city up until last year. Pearl rocks!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of various Subs models...

So I'm thinking ahead to the next v.2 Subs release, and trying to figure out what we'll make next. Keeping with the "smaller releases, fewer watches per release" theme for this year, I'm thinking of making the next release another 150 pieces, total. On my list of potential inclusions...

Amphion Vintage Gilt - last released in March 2020.

Barracuda Blue - last released in July 2019.

Näcken Vintage White - last released in July 2019.

Scorpène (black, the original) - last released in May 2019.

More of the Barracuda Vintage Black and Näcken Modern Blue - because they're our two best-sellers, so why not make more?

Two new, never-before-seen designs.

So...the fact that that AVG doesn't look like it's going to go for more than $600 just confirms the concerns I've expressed before - for all the peeps who clamor for more sword hands, fewer snowflakes, my experience has been the Barracudas and Näckens sell better than the Amphions.

Barracuda Blue - meh, just not feeling it, really. Seems like we can wait a bit longer to make more of those.

We haven't let the Barracuda Vintage Black or Näcken Modern Blue be sold out for more than a few months in over a year, and we just released them with the first v.2 Subs release, so I think I'll wait and see how things go with that v.2 release before I commit to making more of either.

That leaves the Näcken Vintage White, the Scorpène, and the two new designs. 

But, now that I'm thinking about this, I wonder if we could whip up one more new design, quickly, and make the three new designs out of those 150 pieces. I do still need to come up with something in honor of Sgt. Mack...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> The market will do as it does, but some folks forget that eBay charges sales tax now (if applicable in your state), and the bid price does not include the tax.


Oh, for sure. I'm just "thinking out loud" here.

I'm in the tea-leaf-reading business, in some ways. Looking at the used market is part of the picture for me. It's hard for me to credit that there are 50 people in the world who would buy the Amphion Vintage Gilt for $700, right away (more or less) if we released it again, when there's one piece for sale, brand new, in box, and the bidding hasn't already gotten over $600.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Oh, for sure. I'm just "thinking out loud" here.
> 
> I'm in the tea-leaf-reading business, in some ways. Looking at the used market is part of the picture for me. It's hard for me to credit that there are 50 people in the world who would buy the Amphion Vintage Gilt for $700, right away (more or less) if we released it again, when there's one piece for sale, brand new, in box, and the bidding hasn't already gotten over $600.


I was in at $550, got caught up on a conference call, came back too late to increase....congrats to whomever got it at $560


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I was in at $550, got caught up on a conference call, came back too late to increase....congrats to whomever got it at $560


Not a "bad" price for a "used" NTH, even if it's actually still new.

I suppose it demonstrates something about current resale values, and the relative value of buying direct from the manufacturer or a retailer, versus from a less-known entity online, even if "ByBristolBay" (whoever that is) appears to be a legitimately solid seller with lots of positive feedback.

If nothing else, it makes my decision-making regarding when or if to make more that much easier. I'm not looking to make anyone "feel bad" here. I just hope it helps demonstrate the challenges for brand owners when it comes to gauging real market demand based on forum commentary.

TL;DR - talk is cheap, especially among WIS.

Based on this one data point, but combined with others, I think we'll hold off on making more of those a bit longer.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Mediocre said:


> I was in at $550, got caught up on a conference call, came back too late to increase....congrats to whomever got it at $560


Im very active on the sales forums here, and at Reddit. Ill keep an eye out for this to pop up there. There is a Baracuda Vintage gilt that came up for sale on reddit today for $490 that i wish I could afford. I love the vintage gilt dials!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Not a "bad" price for a "used" NTH, even if it's actually still new.
> 
> I suppose it demonstrates something about current resale values, and the relative value of buying direct from the manufacturer or a retailer, versus from a less-known entity online, even if "ByBristolBay" (whoever that is) appears to be a legitimately solid seller with lots of positive feedback.
> 
> ...


I want one

And I think you are making the right decision

Will be watching for it to show up on WUS next week for $650 LOL


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

PowerChucker said:


> Im very active on the sales forums here, and at Reddit. Ill keep an eye out for this to pop up there. There is a Baracuda Vintage gilt that came up for sale on reddit today for $490 that i wish I could afford. I love the vintage gilt dials!


$490? Someone is selling themselves short (if in good condition)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> The market will do as it does, but some folks forget that eBay charges sales tax now (if applicable in your state), and the bid price does not include the tax.





docvail said:


> Oh, for sure. I'm just "thinking out loud" here.
> 
> I'm in the tea-leaf-reading business, in some ways. Looking at the used market is part of the picture for me. It's hard for me to credit that there are 50 people in the world who would buy the Amphion Vintage Gilt for $700, right away (more or less) if we released it again, when there's one piece for sale, brand new, in box, and the bidding hasn't already gotten over $600.


Only thinking about it (the market, in general) some more...

My son's car is still in the shop. Stopped in today, and they're no closer to having it fixed than they were when I stopped in last week. In fact, the same new(ish) BMW 6 series sedan is still in the same spot it was 2 weeks ago, which is part of why my son's car is still sitting around outside. Whoever the owner is, it's his second car, and he does NOT want the dealership working on it.

Earlier this summer, on one occasion when I stopped in, I bumped into another guy I've known for at least 10 years there, with his / his daughter's Lexus IS250. Nice looking car, all wheel drive, single owner, well-maintained, still runs well, with something like 120k-125k on the odometer. He mentioned planning to sell it in August (i.e, soon), when his daughter left for college. I told him I wanted it, and we agreed on a price.

It's not just my 19 year old I'm thinking about. My 15 year old will be 16 in November. Even if we get the 19 yo's VW wagon fixed before the end of the year, we're going to need another car in the household. I figured I'd give the Lexus to the older boy, and let the younger one piss and moan about driving the wagon.

So...two-three months later, I called him again, today. He says he has at least one other person interested, someone from his church. He isn't ready to sell it yet. And he's hip to the fact that used car values are through the roof right now.

Sunofabizotch is telling me he might trade it in on a new car, instead of selling it to me or anyone else, because dealerships are paying top dollar for used cars recently. I'm sure the price we "agreed" upon is up in smoke. He as much as said so, in that "I'm joking with you, but not really" tone.

I'd love to see something similar happen with the used watch market. I wonder if I could effectively corner the market on used NTH's. I probably could, but I'd be forced to spend a lot more time dealing with the purchases and sales, the inspections, price-setting, etc, which is something I wanted to avoid when I conceived of the Nearly New and "try before you buy" stuff.

If I had more time, and more money, I'd do it. I'd just buy all the used NTH's for sale at better-than-they-ought-to-be prices, and put them up for sale on my own "used car lot".

Regardless of what I do or decide not to do...buy watches now, people. They're not going to get cheaper, even if you're buying the cheapest stuff off of Ali Baba. In the short-term, sure, there may be some good opportunities to pick up a really nice watch on the cheap. But the long-term trend points upwards.

Labor costs are going up, even in China. Shipping costs are rising at an insane rate. I've been reading that factories are struggling to get raw materials delivered. There's an aging / shrinking workforce in Japan. I don't know what's happening in Switzerland recently, but my hunch is Swatch will continue working its long-term plan to squeeze all the other players out of the entry-level watch business.

Just one data point - we just re-ordered the UV torches. My costs (production plus shipping) on those went up 70% in the last 24 months. We just raised the prices 40%, from $5 to $7.

Brace yourselves. The market two years from now won't remotely resemble what it looked like two years ago.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Right on cue, this madness just popped up in my FB feed...

















Yes, yes, I too can read the fine-print. But when have you ever seen anything like this, from any auto dealer, anywhere, before this year?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Before anyone asks, "why didn't you buy the AVG, Doc?"

They were $675 new. Nearly new section prices are 90% of new prices, which means I'd have sold it for $607.50.

$560 on eBay, plus 6% Pennsylvania sales tax = $593.60.

I'd have made $13.90 profit, before paying Dan to inspect it (and if need be, regulate and lubricate it), and pack it up for shipping to whomever would have bought it.

There just wasn't enough profit in it for me. Might have even lost money on the deal, depending on what Dan found.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Two new, never-before-seen designs............
> 
> ............But, now that I'm thinking about this, I wonder if we could whip up one more new design, quickly, and make the three new designs out of those 150 pieces. I do still need to come up with something in honor of Sgt. Mack...












But I'm still on team "anything but more snowflake hands".....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Looks like the Antilles Cointreau is now sold out worldwide.

Hard to believe we almost didn't make it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16062335
> 
> 
> But I'm still on team "anything but more snowflake hands".....


Then you'll be happy to know the new designs do not use snowflake hands.

They're both "original" designs, in the sense that I don't think anyone is going to look at them and say we just ripped off some other brand's design.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Then you'll be happy to know the new designs do not use snowflake hands.
> 
> They're both "original" designs, in the sense that I don't think anyone is going to look at them and say we just ripped off some other brand's design.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I still want a v.1 Santa Fe. Actually, I want two as I want to give one to my brother who served alongside me on the _Santa Fe_. I'd be in for a v.2 Scorpene black w/date and a Nomad or Commando bezel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I still want a v.1 Santa Fe. Actually, I want two as I want to give one to my brother who served alongside me on the _Santa Fe_. I'd be in for a v.2 Scorpene black w/date and a Nomad or Commando bezel.


Some day the industry will figure out how to lower MOQ's to make low-volume production more viable.

Until that day, there's always the used market...


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> Sunofabizotch is telling me he might trade it in on a new car, instead of selling it to me or anyone else, because dealerships are paying top dollar for used cars recently.


He's not wrong. I bought a new Mustang convertible in 2016. Paid about $32k. Pre-Covid I went to one of those sites like KBB or Carvana and they told me it was worth $17k. Last month the Carvana quote was north of $26k. Long story short, I don't own a Mustang anymore. Didn't want the bubble to burst and lose out on the insanity...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16062355


As soon as we order them for production, I'll share images.

We're going for a new, not-usually-seen dial texture on the one design. I don't know if there's time to get dial samples. If not, then we'll have to wait and see what the finished product looks like.

Kind of excited about these. We haven't revealed a completely new Subs design since August of 2019. We ranged far and wide looking for inspiration.

You ever ranged far and wide, for anything? If you have, you know it's kind of a PITA carrying all that stuff back home witcha...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> He's not wrong. I bought a new Mustang convertible in 2016. Paid about $32k. Pre-Covid I went to one of those sites like KBB or Carvana and they told me it was worth $17k. Last month the Carvana quote was north of $26k. Long story short, I don't own a Mustang anymore. Didn't want the bubble to burst and lose out on the insanity...


I know. It just sucks to be in my position - one car in the shop, and staring down the barrel of needing to buy another used car, sooner rather than later.

I've been pressuring my 15 year old to get his permit, so he can get his license, so my wife and I can quit chauffering his spoiled a$$ around town, but also because I wanted to buy _THAT_ car.

If I don't get it, at least I can stop pressuring Thing 2 to get his permit.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I don't know if there's time to get dial samples. If not, then we'll have to wait and see what the finished product looks like.


Big brass'uns. That'd scare the crap out of me.

And that's coming from a guy who's job kills people.

I anxiously await updates though!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

The drilled lugs are almost nice on the cuda. But the bracelet and it's endlinks are too exceptional, the brown leather strap I got looks good on it but it only looks as good as the bracelet and no better. The bracelet not only looks good but feels exceptional. I'll rarely If ever use the feature for easy strap swapping.

I had a boldr that had an amazing bracelet and quick detach spring bars, useless as the bracelet was too good as well.

My steinhart and it's bold color makes swapping between the bracelet and a leather strap and now rubber nice and there's no drilled lugs&#8230;&#8230;. Drilled lugs and I'd be swapping straps pretty often. Mostly between the bracelet and this green rubber

Oh well, what can you do









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Right on cue, this madness just popped up in my FB feed...
> 
> View attachment 16062283
> View attachment 16062284
> ...


They're watching you bro. For real.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> The drilled lugs are almost nice on the cuda. But the bracelet and it's endlinks are too exceptional, the brown leather strap I got looks good on it but it only looks as good as the bracelet and no better. The bracelet not only looks good but feels exceptional. I'll rarely If ever use the feature for easy strap swapping.
> 
> I had a boldr that had an amazing bracelet and quick detach spring bars, useless as the bracelet was too good as well.
> 
> ...


It's like saying...

"My Porsche is almost nice, but I don't drive fast often because it's so comfy"

****'s still nice even if you don't use it!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> It's like saying...
> 
> "My Porsche is almost nice, but I don't drive fast often because it's so comfy"
> 
> ****'s still nice even if you don't use it!


For sure and I wouldn't think about it at all if I didn't have the steinhart which I do wanna change straps on and it lacks the quick change features.

Knowing is half the battle or whatever

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Big brass'uns. That'd scare the crap out of me.
> 
> And that's coming from a guy who's job kills people.
> 
> I anxiously await updates though!


Meh. Dial samples are for wussies.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Right on cue, this madness just popped up in my FB feed...
> 
> View attachment 16062283
> View attachment 16062284
> ...


The market is INSANE. I worked in the auto dealership world for over a decade and I've never seen anything like it. I bought a 19 Scat Pack Charger brand new in August of 19 for 33k OTD, stickered for 40. I sold it to a local used dealership for 40K 3 months ago, wrote me a check on the spot. I literally laughed all the way to the bank.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Some day the industry will figure out how to lower MOQ's to make low-volume production more viable.
> 
> Until that day, there's always the used market...


I wasn't advocating for a rerun of Santa Fes. The time for those is past although it would be neat and make things easy. Just relating my NTH plans and tagging in for a v.2 Scorpene.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Real estate is even more crazy. I bought a tiny cabin in remote north Idaho about 10 years ago for a steal. Property values were down, as was the market. I had four unsolicited offers last week for 4 times what I paid for it. A neighbor couldn't stand it, and sold his place thinking he'd buy another and pocket some of the profit. Bad move. He's currently "homeless" and living with relatives, as there's nothing else to buy. UNLESS he's willing to fork out considerably more than he just made...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Speaking of various Subs models...
> 
> So I'm thinking ahead to the next v.2 Subs release, and trying to figure out what we'll make next. Keeping with the "smaller releases, fewer watches per release" theme for this year, I'm thinking of making the next release another 150 pieces, total. On my list of potential inclusions...
> 
> ...


I'd like to see a scorpene dial on a 2k1 - would buy&#8230;


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Question, on both the NTH site and WatchGauge site it shows two different versions of upcoming orange no date devilray, one with both hands and indices outlined in black and the other with only minute hand outlined and no induces outlined. Which is correct?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, pretty sure the second is a render so safe to say, the first picture depicts the colorway correctly.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

josiahg52 said:


> Well, pretty sure the second is a render so safe to say, the first picture depicts the colorway correctly.


That's what I'm hoping because if so, I'd be well on my way to next NTH&#8230;but sure is confusing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Question, on both the NTH site and WatchGauge site it shows two different versions of upcoming orange no date devilray, one with both hands and indices outlined in black and the other with only minute hand outlined and no induces outlined. Which is correct?
> 
> View attachment 16062496
> 
> ...





josiahg52 said:


> Well, pretty sure the second is a render so safe to say, the first picture depicts the colorway correctly.


Both are correct.

The indices were not blacked out. Optical illusion in that photo.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I wasn't advocating for a rerun of Santa Fes. The time for those is past although it would be neat and make things easy. Just relating my NTH plans and tagging in for a v.2 Scorpene.


I got you, bruh.

Just saying, I look forward to the day we can make stuff in lower volume, so we can better meet market desires. MOQs are a bane to many brands.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Both are correct.
> 
> The indices were not blacked out. Optical illusion in that photo.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Really not trying to be obtuse, but you're saying only the minute hand has a black outline and nothing else?


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

More car sales craziness. I have a high school friend in Florida that has owned Corvettes for close to 40 years. He usually buys used, keeps it for 3-5 years, and then moves up, sometimes getting a special edition or a car with the most sought after options. Earlier this year he ordered a 2021 Vet. Not sure what options were on it, but total delivered price was just shy of 84K. So about 2-3 weeks ago his guy at the dealership called him and told him his car was in. My friend went down and completed the paperwork, but the dealership guy asked if they could keep his car on the showroom floor since this was the first Vet they had gotten in this year. My friend say sure since he at the moment didn't have the garage space. The buyer of his 2018 had yet come and pick the car up. So my friend goes home, and then gets a call from the dealership. Seems a guy walked in off the street and wanted to buy the Vet on the showroom floor. He was advised that the car had already been sold, and he then asked who bought it. The dealership refused to give him him my friend's info, so he asked the dealer to call my friend and ask him if he would talk to him. So the dealer calls my friend, and he told the dealer sure, but give the guy his phone number only. Five minutes later my friend's phone rings, its the guy off the street and he wants to buy the car for $100,000.00 cash. My friend told me he thought about for about 10 seconds, and said sure. So back to the dealership he went, paperwork was done, and he had 100K in the bank about five minutes later. My friend, he was meh, I can always get another Vet at some other time. Plus a about a 16% return on his money, not bad.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Nacken Vintage White v2...? Dang...

One thing lost by the, "Won't buy, 'only' has an NH35" crowd is the fact that I know I can replace a faulty movement, rather than send it anywhere for service...

We were looking at used trucks... were. No lie - one of the reasons I bought a Volvo (since sold) is the independent shop around the corner from where I work. Just the best service by a Volvo expert/nerd.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Really not trying to be obtuse, but you're saying only the minute hand has a black outline and nothing else?


And the tip of the seconds hand.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Really not trying to be obtuse, but you're saying only the minute hand has a black outline and nothing else?












This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I bought my Ram 2500 diesel last year just in time for $35k. Who knows what I could sell it for now. My M5 might sell for double what I paid for it 12 years ago. Bought my house over two years ago for $165k. All those estimating websites say it should sell for $240k+. I've done nothing to it except pay about $30k down. It's all stupid.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> And the tip of the seconds hand.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Thanks for clearing that up! Had I ordered that I would have returned it since I would have expected the black outlines on everything as the photos in orange straps shows. I'll need to figure out how to un-wait list myself at WatchGauge and find something else. No appeal for me without those defining outlines.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Thanks for clearing that up! Had I ordered that I would have returned it since I would have expected the black outlines on everything as the photos in orange straps shows. I'll need to figure out how to un-wait list myself at WatchGauge and find something else. No appeal for me without those defining outlines.


"No appeal"?

Bruh, you know I read the posts in this thread, right?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> "No appeal"?
> 
> Bruh, you know I read the posts in this thread, right?


Of course&#8230;that's why I wrote "no appeal to me".  My Swiftsure, Thresher, Azores, and Antilles all greatly appeal "to me"&#8230; probably good for my wallet that all your models don't appeal to me!?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Of course&#8230;that's why I wrote "no appeal to me".  My Swiftsure, Thresher, Azores, and Antilles all greatly appeal "to me"&#8230; probably good for my wallet that all your models don't appeal to me!?


'S'all good. They don't all appeal to me, either.

Different horses for different courses.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

DevilRay and the African coast on the starboard side









DevilRay and the European coast, complete with one of the 100's of wildfires, on the port side. Gibraltar is hidden by the smoke


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

cghorr01 said:


> The market is INSANE. I worked in the auto dealership world for over a decade and I've never seen anything like it. I bought a 19 Scat Pack Charger brand new in August of 19 for 33k OTD, stickered for 40. I sold it to a local used dealership for 40K 3 months ago, wrote me a check on the spot. I literally laughed all the way to the bank.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Edited for accuracy, since I fat fingered it yesterday. They paid me 40k for the car. I made 7 grand on it after owning it 2 years. Best deal I've ever done on a new car.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTH Tuesday&#8230;









NO, REALLY&#8230;#NTH Tuesday&#8230;


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

I'll second the #nthtuesday hashtag.










Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Definitely #NTHTuesday









Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

NTH Tuesday. Is this now a thing?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Rhorya said:


> NTH Tuesday. Is this now a thing?


Why yes! Along with #NTH Monday, #NTH Wednesday, #NTH Thursday, #NTH Friday, #NTH Saturday AND #NTH Sunday!


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)

View attachment 16063763


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

#NTHohwaitIforgot.....









Edit: unintentional almost 10:10


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHTUESDAY #IHATEHASHTAGS


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#tudorhomagetuesday

You’ll have to guess the watch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

rpm1974 said:


> #tudorhomagetuesday
> 
> You'll have to guess the watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Close.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Nacken?


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Nacken?


Slant was closer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

rpm1974 said:


> Close.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#nthtuesday? #tudorhomagetuesday? I'm in!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Slant was closer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Slant said:


> Pic


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> 'S'all good. They don't all appeal to me, either.
> 
> Different horses for different courses.


If i ran a company that dealt in one of my hobbies id probably try to make most of my line not appeal to me just for my own financial safety


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> #NTH Tuesday&#8230;
> View attachment 16063519
> 
> 
> ...


gotta say usually plain steel bezels dont do it for me and frankly the nth line with that style of bezel dont appeal to me but that nato really makes it work. Really balances the white and the steel, put the bracelet back on and its back to being meh at best for me again


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

My first #nthtuesday

Thinking of a different insert. Problem is I like so many: Catalina, Polarcuda, Santa Fe, Commando...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

sgtlmj said:


> My first #nthtuesday
> 
> Thinking of a different insert. Problem is I like so many: Catalina, Polarcuda, Santa Fe, Commando...


Personally, I'd go Catalina on that one.


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Personally, I'd go Catalina on that one.


We either need an app that can render different inserts with different dials, or an NTH Prime Wardrobe membership where we could buy a bunch of inserts and try them out before deciding. 😉


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

sgtlmj said:


> an NTH Prime Wardrobe membership where we could buy a bunch of inserts and try them out before deciding.


The NTH "Try Before You Try Before You Buy" program!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone who missed it, these models recently sold out...

Odin Blue
Dolphin Magenta
Vanguard
Tikuna
Nacken Vintage Black
Antilles Cointreau

These are all low on inventory...

Bahia Black, No-date - last piece in the world - 인투와치

Oberon II no-date - last piece in the world - NTH Oberon II No Date

Oberon II with-date - last piece in the world - NTH Oberon II Date

DevilRay Black no-date - last piece in the world - 인투와치

Swiftsure, White, with date - last piece in the world - https://www.watchgecko.com/nth-swiftsure-automatic-diver-watch-with-white-dial

v.1 Nacken Modern Blue, no-date - last piece in the world - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nth-nackenbluendate?_pos=6&_sid=e057a96b0&_ss=r

Scorpene, White, DLC - last piece in the world - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-scorpene-white-dlc-no-date

Amphion Commando, no-date - last piece in the world - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-amphion-commando-no-date

Barracuda Polar White, no-date - last piece in the world - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/barracuda-polar-no-date-wait-list


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

sgtlmj said:


> We either need an app that can render different inserts with different dials, or an NTH Prime Wardrobe membership where we could buy a bunch of inserts and try them out before deciding. 😉


I forget who, but there was a member who was handy with the PhotoShop enough that he could produce decent approximate renders.


----------



## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> I forget who, but there was a member who was handy with the PhotoShop enough that he could produce decent approximate renders.


Not that guy but here's my quick and dirty effort using images from the NTH website.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> I forget who, but there was a member who was handy with the PhotoShop enough that he could produce decent approximate renders.


I heard @rpm1974 is pretty good at it.


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Saswatch said:


> Not that guy but here's my quick and dirty effort using images from the NTH website.
> View attachment 16064516


Gorgeous! I think that might be the one. Was leaning towards the Commando, but the main reason I got the Nacken was to be able to read it without glasses. No way I could see the 2 small rows of numbers on that insert. I have more use for dual-time than a dive bezel nowadays, otherwise I'd go with the Santa Cruz insert. It has blue lume to match the Nacken, minute marks to :15, and a green pip.


----------



## Cereme (Jul 3, 2021)

#NTHTuesday


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sgtlmj said:


> Gorgeous! I think that might be the one. Was leaning towards the Commando, but the main reason I got the Nacken was to be able to read it without glasses. No way I could see the 2 small rows of numbers on that insert. I have more use for dual-time than a dive bezel nowadays, otherwise I'd go with the Santa Cruz insert. It has blue lume to match the Nacken, minute marks to :15, and a green pip.


The lume on the Santa Cruz bezel isn't blue. Tis green.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Saswatch said:


> Not that guy but here's my quick and dirty effort using images from the NTH website.
> View attachment 16064516


Yep, that would totally do it for me...


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

docvail said:


> The lume on the Santa Cruz bezel isn't blue. Tis green.


Ah, I meant Santa Fe. I get all the Santas mixed up.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)




----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

sgtlmj said:


> My first #nthtuesday
> 
> Thinking of a different insert. Problem is I like so many: Catalina, Polarcuda, Santa Fe, Commando...












Not helping, but I used to have a Nacken with a Scorpene insert.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> View attachment 16065194


12 hour bezels are the best.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The first Santa Fe in my plan is on its way to me. Hopefully all goes well and it is delivered in time and safely. The second part of my plan involves finding a second Santa Fe to gift to my younger brother who served alongside me on the US submarine _Santa Fe_ and has helped me through the years. Hey, I found the first one so I'll find a second.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> View attachment 16065194


That's a beauty... would be even nicer as a no- date! Reminiscent of my Marathon TSAR, has a similar look about it.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Peteagus said:


> Not helping, but I used to have a Nacken with a Scorpene insert.


I wasn't going to mention it, but that Nomad insert on the Nacken is pretty slick, too...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

WRUW










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> WRUW
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> That's a beauty... would be even nicer as a no- date! Reminiscent of my Marathon TSAR, has a similar look about it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


It actually started as a no-date version, with a grey standard bezel. After four iterations, it became this. Took me awhile to find the current dial, but it's a favorite.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Just arrived!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Rhory, bringing the    !

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Rhorya said:


> Just arrived!


Dial looks great.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Miles_Wilson (Mar 10, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16065938


Gotta ask, what are those relays for?
My day job is Industrial Refrigeration controls and that all looks very familiar.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Miles_Wilson said:


> Gotta ask, what are those relays for?
> My day job is Industrial Refrigeration controls and that all looks very familiar.


They're for a humidity control system that will be going into a grow room. I've got all sorts of pictures with high and low voltage stuff.

PLCs, HMIs, contactor boxes, etc.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

No, I'm not gonna let 'em catch me, no
I'm not gonna let 'em catch the midnight Thresher&#8230;


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> They're for a humidity control system that will be going into a grow room. I've got all sorts of pictures with high and low voltage stuff.
> 
> PLCs, HMIs, contactor boxes, etc.


Oh, are we showing day job pics?










Just finished tubing up these three solar packages. They're ready for panels and testing.

-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

G-d_damn_.
I haven't checked in for a week and missed that Amphion on eBay. Google alerts didn't spot it, and eBay saved search didn't trigger either. F***!
Folks, if it turns up on sale somewhere, please message me. I'll happily accept a full inbox over not knowing.

$560 <cries> I would _start_ at $700


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Rhorya said:


> Just arrived!


You're just spoiling for trouble posting that in this thread arn't ya....

You know Doc ain't got his yet... there's gunna be conniptions

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ozludo said:


> G-d_damn_.
> I haven't checked in for a week and missed that Amphion on eBay. Google alerts didn't spot it, and eBay saved search didn't trigger either. F***!
> Folks, if it turns up on sale somewhere, please message me. I'll happily accept a full inbox over not knowing.
> 
> $560 <cries> I would _start_ at $700


I think the lesson here is you need to look at this thread 3-4 times per day, every day.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> You're just spoiling for trouble posting that in this thread arn't ya....
> 
> You know Doc ain't got his yet... there's gunna be conniptions
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Grrrrr...


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I think the lesson here is you need to look at this thread 3-4 times per day, every day.


So he can be like you? That just might be crazy enough to work lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ozludo said:


> G-d_damn_.
> I haven't checked in for a week and missed that Amphion on eBay. Google alerts didn't spot it, and eBay saved search didn't trigger either. F***!
> Folks, if it turns up on sale somewhere, please message me. I'll happily accept a full inbox over not knowing.
> 
> $560 <cries> I would _start_ at $700


There's an Amphion Commando for $450 buy now price on eBay right now. If you're not looking for the stainless bezel, those can be changed&#8230;


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I think the lesson here is you need to look at this thread 3-4 times per day, every day.


Per day?? Are you mad?

It's gotta be per hour!

Snooze and you lose! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Vinegar (Oct 9, 2018)

Hi fellas, new to this thread but a lot of love for the NTH designs.

I've been looking out for a blue Antilles, are these all locked away or do they ever come up?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Grrrrr...
> 
> View attachment 16067219


I remember having one in transit&#8230;.hopefully yours arrives very soon!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Per day?? Are you mad?
> 
> It's gotta be per hour!
> 
> ...


Oh per hour?! So I can cut back? Thank you!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Vinegar said:


> Hi fellas, new to this thread but a lot of love for the NTH designs.
> 
> I've been looking out for a blue Antilles, are these all locked away or do they ever come up?


Set an alert on eBay and Watch Recon. They don't come up very often.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Sike!


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16067836
> 
> 
> Sike!
> ...


Ricky Bobby, is that you?


----------



## Vinegar (Oct 9, 2018)

docvail said:


> Set an alert on eBay and Watch Recon. They don't come up very often.


Thanks Doc, got the alerts set, just curious.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> Oh, for sure. I'm just "thinking out loud" here.
> 
> I'm in the tea-leaf-reading business, in some ways. Looking at the used market is part of the picture for me. It's hard for me to credit that there are 50 people in the world who would buy the Amphion Vintage Gilt for $700, right away (more or less) if we released it again, when there's one piece for sale, brand new, in box, and the bidding hasn't already gotten over $600.


To play devil's advocate for a sec... an ebay listing doesn't have the same kind of demand inducing market exposure as an announcement from you and several worldwide retailers. Some people in this thread didn't even know about the eBay listing.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Swiftsure fly, Swiftsure fly
Into the light of a light blue night&#8230;


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 16068114
> 
> 
> View attachment 16068117
> ...


These shots are amazing!! Mine should be here (date version) tomorrow or this weekend.

Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> To play devil's advocate for a sec... an ebay listing doesn't have the same kind of demand inducing market exposure as an announcement from you and several worldwide retailers. Some people in this thread didn't even know about the eBay listing.


Understood - but this thread gets a lot of views, largely by people who are interested in the brand. I posted about it more than once, here and in our Facebook group, over a couple days. And there was only ONE listed, anywhere in the world, at the time.

If we wanted to make more, we'd assemble at least 50 pieces - 25 date, 25 no date. If the bidding on one piece, brand new, in box, doesn't get above 80% of what we'd be charging for them, it's hard for me to credit that there are 50 people in the world lined up, waiting to buy them, at full price.

Unsold inventory is the bane of any manufacturer and retailers. I need to be careful not to get caught up in over-production.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

One more:


----------



## calatrava72 (Jul 16, 2015)

New root beer just arrived yesterday afternoon...


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Not exactly an NTH, but I thought I'd share anyway. This thing is killer!









Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> There's an Amphion Commando for $450 buy now price on eBay right now. If you're not looking for the stainless bezel, those can be changed&#8230;


I can only find the one offered by Serious Watches in the Netherlands - if there's another I'd like to check it out. Is there a link? 
But I really want the vintage gilt look, so ?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ozludo said:


> I can only find the one offered by Serious Watches in the Netherlands - if there's another I'd like to check it out. Is there a link?
> But I really want the vintage gilt look, so ?


It's the Amphion commando not the gilt, by a private seller. I'll see if I can PM you a link


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just landed...









This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Just landed...
> View attachment 16069206
> 
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Nice choice of blue, good hue for it


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Nice choice of blue, good hue for it


Pretty sure it's the same Pantone shade of turquoise we've used for the DevilRays, and on the Swiftsures / Threshers.

I'm not saying it was my idea...


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Pretty sure it's the same Pantone shade of turquoise we've used for the DevilRays, and on the Swiftsures / Threshers.
> 
> I'm not saying it was my idea...


Plagiarism eh..... bad boy Rusty

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 16068114
> 
> 
> View attachment 16068117
> ...


Dude, you always take the best pics. When you popped up on the radar and said that you'd ordered one, I was hoping for some pics like this.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Pretty sure it's the same Pantone shade of turquoise we've used for the DevilRays, and on the Swiftsures / Threshers.
> 
> I'm not saying it was my idea...


That makes sense, because the DevilRays look the business!

Pantone, that is a word I have not dealt with in about 2 years. I am neither artistic nor a stickler for fine detail. I would be like "this looks great!!!"....take it to marketing, out comes the loupe and light....and I would be berated because the red was not just one pantone off...but....TWO 

Glad we have gents like yourself so that dopes like me are not out there producing unintentional rainbow watches LOL


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Another day, another Swiftsure&#8230;


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Ok, I took my Amphion Vintage Gilt to the Eagles game last night.. wowza, what a crap show that game was! But at least our seats were amazing! on the 40 yard line, 25 rows from the field. I went with my 12 year old son, and we had a great time! @docvail did you see the game?


----------



## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

My Amphion Commando arrived today! I'm not a bracelet guy so I swapped to a nato- love it! I have a replacement Kiger Red Ronin bezel insert, but the stainless steel look is growing on me.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Looks great!


----------



## Aero2001 (Sep 25, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok, I took my Amphion Vintage Gilt to the Eagles game last night.. wowza, what a crap show that game was! But at least our seats were amazing! on the 40 yard line, 25 rows from the field. I went with my 12 year old son, and we had a great time! @docvail did you see the game?


I was there with my 18-year-old daughter, who desperately wanted to attend an Eagles game for the first time before she heads off to college in a couple of weeks. It was indeed a crap show, but we had a great time anyway. Crab fries, new Eagles hats, fireworks...works for us! Alas, I don't have an NTH (yet) so no Eagles/watch photo to post.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Aero2001 said:


> I was there with my 18-year-old daughter, who desperately wanted to attend an Eagles game for the first time before she heads off to college in a couple of weeks. It was indeed a crap show, but we had a great time anyway. Crab fries, new Eagles hats, fireworks...works for us! Alas, I don't have an NTH (yet) so no Eagles/watch photo to post.


This was our first game too. Where were you? We were section 119. Would be cool if we saw each other and didn't know it lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aero2001 (Sep 25, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> This was our first game too. Where were you? We were section 119. Would be cool if we saw each other and didn't know it lol


Cool that it was your first also. We were in 226, so not too far away, but above. Thankfully not a bad seat in the house&#8230;go Birds!


----------



## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> It's the Amphion commando not the gilt, by a private seller. I'll see if I can PM you a link


Thank you - I've been in touch with the seller (really nice bloke) but I can't bid because he has limited the auction to USA only. He can't work out how to open it up to Australian buyers.
So I find myself hoping that the auction fails to meet his reserve, and he relists. Which actually seems kinda crappy, because as noted he's been really friendly. Oh well.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not an Amphion...


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

@docvail
What say you in regards to your newly acquired Atticus? Obviously your perception would be significantly different as the owner of a watch company, at least I would think so. I'm interested to hear your take. I really think Rusty did a fantastic job. The build quality / qc / etc overall feels very comparable to my Scorpene, to me at least.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

So, since a few are sharing their other micros, thought I'd share what the FedEx fairy dropped off a bit ago. Draken Tugela 3.0 Shaka WatchGauge exclusive. Quite the chunker&#8230;quite sure I can throw it hard enough to knock someone out. Didn't have enough time to get bracelet sized (pins), and not much a fan of the included Zulu band (in photos), just doesn't seem to fold correctly. The search for just a right band continues&#8230;


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Not an Amphion...
> 
> View attachment 16071450


But close enough lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

I got married to my best friend of more than 10 years today.. I am proud beyond belief that she chose me as partner for life. And she abides by my hobby / obsession


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Lab4Us said:


> So, since a few are sharing their other micros, thought I'd share what the FedEx fairy dropped off a bit ago.


The FedEx Fairy should be paying me a visit Monday to drop off a pair of Zelos Mako Titanium in Teal and Burgundy.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I got married to my best friend of more than 10 years today.. I am proud beyond belief that she chose me as partner for life. And she abides by my hobby / obsession


Congratulations!

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> @docvail
> What say you in regards to your newly acquired Atticus? Obviously your perception would be significantly different as the owner of a watch company, at least I would think so. I'm interested to hear your take. I really think Rusty did a fantastic job. The build quality / qc / etc overall feels very comparable to my Scorpene, to me at least.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Same manufacturer. So it should feel similar.

Very happy with it. Been wearing it non stop.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> View attachment 16071476
> 
> 
> I got married to my best friend of more than 10 years today.. I am proud beyond belief that she chose me as partner for life. And she abides by my hobby / obsession


Major congrats!

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> View attachment 16071476
> 
> 
> I got married to my best friend of more than 10 years today.. I am proud beyond belief that she chose me as partner for life. And she abides by my hobby / obsession


Congratulations, that's awesome


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

DHL and FedEx fairies should be visiting me next week. So much for no watches until I sold a few.


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I ordered my first NTH the other night direct. I got the Nacken Renegade and am super excited for it to arrive. I've been looking for an everyday watch or at least a most days watch for what seems like forever now and I think that this checks all the boxes for me. I have some nice watches but nothing that I feel like I must wear on any given day. I generally don't wear anything smaller than 42mm so I am stepping a bit out of my comfort zone on this but I believe that it will be have been a good choice. The endless strong reviews and the loyal following that Chris and team has ultimately made my decision for me. Can't wait to see for myself.


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Good morning guys, another sunrise, this time half Italian and half Greek.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

CuriousBob said:


> I ordered my first NTH the other night direct. I got the Nacken Renegade and am super excited for it to arrive. I've been looking for an everyday watch or at least a most days watch for what seems like forever now and I think that this checks all the boxes for me. I have some nice watches but nothing that I feel like I must wear on any given day. I generally don't wear anything smaller than 42mm so I am stepping a bit out of my comfort zone on this but I believe that it will be have been a good choice. The endless strong reviews and the loyal following that Chris and team has ultimately made my decision for me. Can't wait to see for myself.


From a fellow "large" watch enthusiast, I don't think you'll be disappointed. Only 5 of my watches are under 42mm, and four of those are from NTH with the fifth being a Hamilton Navy Pioneer. The original subs have the perfect dimensions, imho.

I rotate what I wear daily, and not a week goes by that at least one of the subs doesn't get the nod in the morning.

Edit: photos


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> View attachment 16071476
> 
> 
> I got married to my best friend of more than 10 years today.. I am proud beyond belief that she chose me as partner for life. And she abides by my hobby / obsession


Congratulations! Wishing you both further long years of happiness and fun together.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> From a fellow "large" watch enthusiast, I don't think you'll be disappointed. Only 5 of my watches are under 42mm, and four of those are from NTH with the fifth being a Hamilton Navy Pioneer. The original subs have the perfect dimensions, imho.
> 
> I rotate what I wear daily, and not a week goes by that at least one of the subs doesn't get the nod in the morning.
> 
> ...


Awesome. 
No indices? Cali dial, triangles, and retro numbers only...... Very interesting said Freud 🤔.... 😉

I'm back into bigger watches now as well. Only two at 40mm. One incoming at 41mm. All the others 42mm to 44mm.
I agree about the NTH 40mm sub, it doesn't wear small at all. I'm perfectly comfortable with it on my wide flat wrist.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Awesome.
> No indices? Cali dial, triangles, and retro numbers only...... Very interesting said Freud 🤔.... 😉
> 
> I'm back into bigger watches now as well. Only two at 40mm. One incoming at 41mm. All the others 42mm to 44mm.
> I agree about the NTH 40mm sub, it doesn't wear small at all. I'm perfectly comfortable with it on my wide flat wrist.


My only rule is I buy what I like. 
For instance.... indices only.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Greetings from my buddy's hammock on Shelter Island. Military time seems appropriate as we await the hurricane.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

Wrong thread, oops.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> @docvail
> What say you in regards to your newly acquired Atticus? Obviously your perception would be significantly different as the owner of a watch company, at least I would think so. I'm interested to hear your take. I really think Rusty did a fantastic job. The build quality / qc / etc overall feels very comparable to my Scorpene, to me at least.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Following up with some random thinks...

Not long after I joined WUS, there was a company called Kadloo (I don't think they're around anymore), making some very nice, very affordable "Swiss Made" watches (in hindsight, I'm not sure how truly "Swiss" they were, but that's off-topic). One of their models, the 38mm Ocean Millennium, was a bit of Rolex Milgauss homage, and a bit of a "forum darling" at the time.










I was able to secure a used one from a fellow forum member not long after they sold out, and although it was a beautiful watch, I knew almost immediately that it was too small for me.

Maybe it was because I'd mostly been wearing watches 42mm and up until that point. But until I got to take the Icarus prototype for a test drive, I remained sure a 38mm case wasn't going to work for me. In fact, only a few years ago, I'd tried on a Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 5, which is 39mm, and felt like I would have loved it at 40mm.

I still don't know what changed. My best guess is that I've gotten so used to wearing the 40mm Subs that a 38mm non-diver doesn't seem nearly as small as it once did. Quite the contrary, the size of the Icarus feels perfect for its style, at least on my ~7 inch wrist.

Other than that...

*Quality* - I expected it to be the same quality as NTH, as Atticus uses the same vendors. No surprise there. I think the lack of a rotating bezel makes the case finishing that much more noticeable. I think case finishing is one of the areas in which our vendors excel, and so the Icarus feels like a much more expensive watch.

*Performance* - I haven't had mine on a timegrapher, because Dan has my timegrapher, and I didn't think to ask him to time it when I was at his shop yesterday. Dan also got one, a Téleios, which he loves. I just asked him, and he hasn't timed his yet, either. But Rusty's been sending me timegrapher pics the way a kid shows his parents a good report card, so I'm willing to assume my watch is running well within spec, not that I'd notice if it wasn't.

*Case Design* - No surprise I love the case, as Rusty had a strong hand in the NTH Subs' case design. The same sensibilities went into designing the Atticus cases. I think all the proportions are spot on. I'm glad he went with 38mm, rather than 36mm, which he was leaning towards originally, or 39mm, or even 40mm, which is where I was pushing him when we first stated talking about all this.

*Dial / Hands* - What's not to like in the Icarus? I've a soft spot for pilot style dials and hands, of both the non-numerical and big-number style. I should, since I own 2 Scorpenes. My marketing guy, Josh, also opted for an Icarus (a with-date, which appears to be the most popular version, according to poll results in the other thread).

I have no regrets about going with the Icarus, but people's pics of the Pelion have been catching my eye a lot. I'm surprised it's not the most popular version, given how many people seem to like the Tudor BB36. I actually like the Pelion's square markers more.

Speaking of Josh - his collection now comprises a 43mm DevilRay, an almost 44mm Swiftsure, and a bunch of G-shocks, at least one of which is a ridonkulous 54mm. I'll have to ask him if he feels like a schoolgirl wearing a 38mm.

*Bracelet* - I took one too many links out, I think. Until I get a better, more comfortable fit, and have a chance to wear it some more, I won't know if I like it or love it.

For now, I'm ambivalent about (or maybe just indifferent to) the style of the links, and the taper from 20mm to 16mm. I'm not sure I notice the difference in feel between it and the 20mm-18mm taper of the Subs.

But the clasp is noticeably thinner, visually, which, when combined with its length, reminds me of the longer glide-lock clasps. For me, that's neither a good nor a bad thing, just something I noticed.

I suppose one could argue that with 20mm lugs on a 38mm case (as opposed to 18mm, or - gasp - 19mm), tapering the bracelet to 16mm helps keep the bracelet / clasp from making the overall package feel unbalanced (i.e, someone might feel a 20mm-18mm taper made it too wide a bracelet on a case that size).

*Overall *- I still love my divers, but wearing the Icarus the last 2 days made me realize there was something missing in my collection. There's "variety", which I have, and then there's VARIETY.

The Icarus serves as a reminder of how much my tastes and sensibilities have changed since I designed the 42mm Cerberus in 2013, and how much I still had to learn. I'd already realized I made the Cerberus too big, but the Icarus really drives the point home. I think Rusty nailed it, overall.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice review of the v.2 Nacken Modern Black from Zaltek -



https://www.zaltekreviews.com/nth-nacken-v2/?fbclid=IwAR0yK88rN7nI-Fgt5AkAPI4VJDSRBAZrsmLxrPvPegCAyLvTB4ZY8qUF8A8


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of Dan...

















This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

Tried to get along with the stainless steel commando inset, but I just wasn't feeling it. Swapped to the Kiger Red Ronin insert- BAM! Love it! Lume is sweet too!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> Ok, I took my Amphion Vintage Gilt to the Eagles game last night.. wowza, what a crap show that game was! But at least our seats were amazing! on the 40 yard line, 25 rows from the field. I went with my 12 year old son, and we had a great time! @docvail did you see the game?
> View attachment 16070723
> 
> View attachment 16070725
> ...


i dont like sports all that much but events ive been to are fun regardless of who won. I remember going to a UNO basketball game with my dad as a kid and i remember a really good day so looks like a win to me for yall


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Speaking of Kadloo, here's my Kadloo Scubamarine, bought from an amazon vendor for $270 in January 2013; has a 2824 in it, glass may or may not be sapphire (caseback sez it is, some peeps sez no):








Lume is meh, bezel action is poor, "Scubarmarine" has now faded from red to a very light pink.

Surprised, doc, that you went no-date on the Icarus, I always thought of you as a date guy, just making no-dates because a small number of people like me wanted 'em. I actually went date, very unusual for me:








Mine's running at a very nice +4 s/d.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

[email protected] C said:


> Tried to get along with the stainless steel commando inset, but I just wasn't feeling it. Swapped to the Kiger Red Ronin insert- BAM! Love it! Lume is sweet too!


And the NATO is best of all!


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Everything old is blue again.










Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Speaking of Kadloo, here's my Kadloo Scubamarine, bought from an amazon vendor for $270 in January 2013; has a 2824 in it, glass may or may not be sapphire (caseback sez it is, some peeps sez no):
> View attachment 16073323
> 
> Lume is meh, bezel action is poor, "Scubarmarine" has now faded from red to a very light pink.
> ...


Other than 2 Seikos and my Cerberus, every watch I own is no-date.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

shout out to rusty


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Other than 2 Seikos and my Cerberus, every watch I own is no-date.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


good times.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Thought I'd share a shot of Tugela lume&#8230;just in from taking dogs out at time on watch&#8230;


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Lab4Us said:


> Thought I'd share a shot of Tugela lume&#8230;just in from taking dogs out at time on watch&#8230;
> View attachment 16073586


I really like this watch!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Love the style and execution of the Tugela Draken... just not the size. Which is one of the reasons why I prefer NTH subs.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

All dimensions from WatchGauge site. I find the Tugela wears very much like the NTH 2k1s. I’ll probably not try the NTH “subs” as they seem dress watch sized to me. My tropics seem right sized as bezels are under the glass and help them seem my right size (but I would consider them dress watches as well). My next will be similar in size to 2k1s. Maybe a Devilray if non-outlined indices manage to grow on me! 

NTH Thresher - Dimensions: 43.75mm (without crown) x 51mm Lug-to-Lug x 13 mm thick
NTH Azores - Dimensions: 40mm diameter (without crown) x 48mm lug-to-lug x 11.5mm thick
NTH V.2 Nacken - Dimensions: 40mm x 48mm lug-to-lug x 11.5mm thick
Draken Tugela - Dimensions: 42mm x 14mm - 22mm lugs – 48.5mm Lug-to-Lug
NTH Devilray - Case: 43mm x 14.5mm, Lug to Lug: 46mm


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

The Watcher said:


> shout out to rusty
> View attachment 16073530


Love that strap, it's a great combo'. Would you mind if I asked where you got it from please?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Other than 2 Seikos and my Cerberus, every watch I own is no-date.


😮!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Lab4Us said:


> Thought I'd share a shot of Tugela lume&#8230;


I love the lumed date on that. I know, I know, doc sez luming the date is excessively costly and troublesome, but it's still a very cool feature IMO.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ghosting this Monday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

As am I, but a different Ghost. L&H Phantom, Ghost Rider Edition.


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## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Love that strap, it's a great combo'. Would you mind if I asked where you got it from please?





catsteeth said:


> Love that strap, it's a great combo'. Would you mind if I asked where you got it from please?


hello catsteeth - it's been years since i had a pilot style watch with 20mm lugs - this strap has been around a while. it does say 'alfa' on the back but not sure where I got it (dozens of straps in collection). cheers!


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

The Watcher said:


> hello catsteeth - it's been years since i had a pilot style watch with 20mm lugs - this strap has been around a while. it does say 'alfa' on the back but not sure where I got it (dozens of straps in collection). cheers!


Funnily enough. I actually think 20mm is the perfect pilot strap size, even with big 45mm Fleigers. It just looks more authentic as vintage straps were quite narrow.

Yeah, I've got a gazillion straps too. Half of which I've no idea where they came from.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> To play devil's advocate for a sec... an ebay listing doesn't have the same kind of demand inducing market exposure as an announcement from you and several worldwide retailers. Some people in this thread didn't even know about the eBay listing.


Here's one - FS: NTH Amphion w/ date

Just listed in the last 24 hours. Asking 6 hundy.

Don't ever say I don't care about my peeps' happiness. Go get you some, brother.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So I just tried the Maen Hudson 38 bracelet on the Nacken. As you can see, it sits low so you get a gap under the bezel, and the end link is smaller in profile than the lugs. Other than that the curve of the end link matches the case curve, so it sits tight with no play as long as you're using the fattest spring bar that fits.

Just thought I'd pass this along.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> Here's one - FS: NTH Amphion w/ date
> 
> Just listed in the last 24 hours. Asking 6 hundy.
> 
> Don't ever say I don't care about my peeps' happiness. Go get you some, brother.


Wowsers. Have to watch that one.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> So I just tried the Maen Hudson 38 bracelet on the Nacken. As you can see, it sits low so you get a gap under the bezel, and the end link is smaller in profile than the lugs. Other than that the curve of the end link matches the case curve, so it sits tight with no play as long as you're using the fattest spring bar that fits.
> 
> Just thought I'd pass this along.


Dude stop.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> Here's one - FS: NTH Amphion w/ date
> 
> Just listed in the last 24 hours. Asking 6 hundy.
> 
> Don't ever say I don't care about my peeps' happiness. Go get you some, brother.


Thanks... Way ahead of you.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Dude stop.
> 
> View attachment 16077332


Eggsactly!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Thanks... Way ahead of you.


This seems like a square deal, too. I'll vouch for the seller, if anyone's interested...









SOLD NTH Barracuda Vintage Black V1


SOLD I bought this NTH Barracuda Vintage Black from another forums member about two months ago. It's in excellent condition considering it's a couple years old. The only sign of age that I see is some scratches on the clasp. This one has the fully articulated bracelet and 9015 movement. The...




www.watchuseek.com


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

This arrived today:










Well, both did.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> This arrived today:
> 
> View attachment 16077367
> 
> ...


Nice. Santa Fes ain't easy to find.

Let us know if it gives you any sass. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Nice. Santa Fes ain't easy to find.
> 
> Let us know if it gives you any sass. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


They certainly are! And I want a second one to give to my brother. We'll see how long that takes.

Really nice dial on this one. Interesting texture.


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

MrDisco99 said:


> Thanks... Way ahead of you.


It's gone already!
Did you buy that Amph before I even saw Doc's post? Did you?

😩


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks all for the congratulations. I know now for sure I will not ever part ways with the barracuda blue. I was contemplating a lot what to put on that day, and I know I made the right choice


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Ozludo said:


> It's gone already!
> Did you buy that Amph before I even saw Doc's post? Did you?
> 
> 😩


Sorry bud... I saw it first.


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

Tried the stock bracelet on the Amphion.....I'm not normally a bracelet guy, but I like it! Got a bunch of video calls today, so this is a bit classier than a nato IMHO.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

[email protected] C said:


> so this is a bit classier than a nato IMHO.


Depends on one's perspective, mine is different. I'll take a NATO (or rubber strap) on a dive watch 100% of the time&#8230;and would never think less of a person wearing one, in any kind of meeting. Dress watch? Either or.

But I do respect your honest opinion.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Atticus Icarus no date.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Here's one - FS: NTH Amphion w/ date
> 
> Just listed in the last 24 hours. Asking 6 hundy.
> 
> Don't ever say I don't care about my peeps' happiness. Go get you some, brother.


I just saw this, opened with excitement....sold. Good for the seller


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

Lab4Us said:


> Depends on one's perspective, mine is different. I'll take a NATO (or rubber strap) on a dive watch 100% of the time&#8230;and would never think less of a person wearing one, in any kind of meeting. Dress watch? Either or.
> 
> But I do respect your honest opinion.


I totally get it. My perspective comes from the fact I'm working from home in shorts and a polo shirt. This IS my dress watch today! 

But NATOs are fun and can be a way to add some nice color or texture- and I find them more comfortable when it's hot out.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHTUESDAY!!!!!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Totally spaced NTH Tuesday! Time to put the Draken away&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not for nothing, but wouldn't "NTHursday" make more sense?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Not for nothing, but wouldn't "NTHursday" make more sense?


Well&#8230;maybe a THRESHER THURSDAY! &#8230;and a THRESHER TUESDAY!


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## Danny.Giannetti2 (Aug 17, 2021)

Regret selling my Nazario Ghost….oh well.

I’m sure it’s close to impossible to find one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Not for nothing, but wouldn't "NTHursday" make more sense?


No joke, I tried to message you to get your thoughts on "NTHwhichday" before posting today when I realized I was first, but then I was reminded your PM's are off.

Have it your way. I'll give Tuesday back to Lew & Huey


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Danny.Giannetti2 said:


> Regret selling my Nazario Ghost&#8230;.oh well.
> 
> I'm sure it's close to impossible to find one
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Not for nothing, but wouldn't "NTHursday" make more sense?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Lumey lumey lume&#8230;lume, lume, lume, lume&#8230;lumey, lumey, lume&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> No joke, I tried to message you to get your thoughts on "NTHwhichday" before posting today when I realized I was first, but then I was reminded your PM's are off.
> 
> Have it your way. I'll give Tuesday back to Lew & Huey


Lew & Tuesday

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Lew & Tuesday
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.












I know, you've seen this shot before, but it's a nice one&#8230;

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I hereby declare the last day of the week shall henceforth and forthwith be known as Atticusaturday.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Yes, yes, and more yes! I'm 30 minutes in to my first experience with NTH and I just can't forgive myself for arriving so late to the party. This Nacken Renegade is fantastic. I usually go for no dates when given the option but since I was hoping that this would be the everyday work watch that I've been trying to find, I went with the date. Plus the placement on this was done so well, it doesn't take much away from the almost mesmerizing dial.

As previously stated, I was a bit worried about going down to a 40mm but it wears perfectly. I've also never tried a BOR bracelet before and I'm so glad that it was not a disappointment. I may need to take tomorrow off so I can stare at this thing all day. 
Well done NTH, well done.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> I hereby declare the last day of the week shall henceforth and forthwith be known as Atticusaturday.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Amphionday

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Lew & Tuesday
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Lew & T-Huey-sday


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> Not for nothing, but wouldn't "NTHursday" make more sense?


WeNTHday, surely?










Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Antilles with Asia in the background, Europe is just behind me. Popped my "sailing through the Bosphorus" cherry yesterday. It's great to be getting paid to do something that tourists will pay a fortune to do, its not every day you sail through the middle of a city of nearly 16 million people. The voyage is now over and its back to proper work now we have arrived in the Black Sea.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Keep seeing these Azores and Antilles and there's a blue Azores for sale here and I'm thinking, do I need to make a fourth watch purchase this year. I still want a Halios Fairwind, too.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

josiahg52 said:


> do I need to make a fourth watch purchase this year.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This exact convo just happened with my wife, who likes to watch those insipid Kardashian shows, after spotting this in my FB feed.

ME: Check this out. Look at the clock...

HER: [Chuckle]...how do you think that happened?

ME: I think they're stupid and hung the clock upside down.

HER: Are you sure someone didn't do that on purpose, as a joke?

ME: Which seems more likely - someone in their midst is that clever, or they're just that stupid?

HER:...yeah, you got a point there. But she was going to law school...

ME: Did she finish?

HER:..well, no, not yet, but...

ME: I'm sticking with the simplest explanation here.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

^^^Duu----uhhh^^^


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

josiahg52 said:


> Keep seeing these Azores and Antilles and there's a blue Azores for sale here and I'm thinking, do I need to make a fourth watch purchase this year. I still want a Halios Fairwind, too.


I don't think you'd regret it&#8230;Azores has a beautiful dial&#8230;


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Did someone say WedNTHsday? Or maybe I read THRESHER Wednesday?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> This exact convo just happened with my wife, who likes to watch those insipid Kardashian shows, after spotting this in my FB feed.
> 
> ME: Check this out. Look at the clock...
> 
> ...


That is awesome. That photo, along with your assessment, needs to be posted immediately on ALL social media, far and wide.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Everyone knows it's waffledial Wednesday.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> This exact convo just happened with my wife, who likes to watch those insipid Kardashian shows, after spotting this in my FB feed.
> 
> ME: Check this out. Look at the clock...
> 
> ...


So this is bugging me because the indices are obviously upside down but the hands appear to line up correctly right side up...???


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Keep seeing these Azores and Antilles and there's a blue Azores for sale here and I'm thinking, do I need to make a fourth watch purchase this year. I still want a Halios Fairwind, too.


I'll vouch for the seller of these two. Met him once or twice. Good dude.









FS: NTH Azores Blue Curaçao


$675 NET (Shipping Included) Unfortunately I need to slim down the collection and I decided to keep my Cointreau Antilles over the Blue Curaçao Azores. It's in excellent condition, a few minor scuffs on the clasp and bracelet. Case and Crystal are in mint condition. US SALES ONLY PLEASE NO...




www.watchuseek.com













FS: NTH Antilles Cointreau


$700 NET (shipping included) This one hurts but I need to slim down the collection. Pretty sure there were only 25 of these made and they are currently unavailable. It's in near new condition as you can see from the pics. NO TRADES US SALES ONLY PLEASE Sent from my iPhone...




www.watchuseek.com


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The Azores is the one I wanted due to a submarine event that occurred "near" there. I know that's not what it's named for but it's what I think of.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> That is awesome. That photo, along with your assessment, needs to be posted immediately on ALL social media, far and wide.


In the last 18 months, I've become increasingly annoyed by the wide-spread logical fallacy of perceiving increased credibility among those with the biggest megaphones (metaphorically speaking).

Anyone with enough resources can acquire a big megaphone. That doesn't mean we ought to believe everything they say.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> So this is bugging me because the indices are obviously upside down but the hands appear to line up correctly right side up...???


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It appears that the Oberon II with date, the DevilRay Black no date, the Barracuda Polar White no date, the Swiftsure White with date, and the Scorpène White DLC all sold out within the last few days.

*Last call on these 6 watches, y'all...*

Bahia No Date - last NO DATE Bahia in the world - 인투와치

Oberon II No Date - last Oberon II in the world - NTH Oberon II No Date

Swiftsure White No Date - last white Swiftsure in the world - 2K1 Subs - Swiftsure - White | NTH Watches Hong Kong

v.1 Näcken Modern Blue, no date - last v.1 Modern Blue No date in the world - https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nth-nackenbluendate?_pos=7&_sid=7bb9bc315&_ss=r

Amphion Commando no date - last No date in the world - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-amphion-commando-no-date

Amphion Commando with date - last with date in the world - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-amphion-commando-date

*Just 2 pieces left of these 6 (both pieces at same link):*

Nazario Azzurro - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nazario-azzurro-pre-order

Bahia with Date - 인투와치

DevilRay, Black, With Date - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=154&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Swiftsure, Black, DLC With Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-swiftsure-black-dlc-no-date

Thresher, Black, DLC With Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-thresher-black-dlc-no-date

v.1 Näcken Modern Black, DLC, With Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nacken-modern-black-dlc-date

Scorpène White on BOR - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-scorpene-white-no-date-bor

*We're also down to 2 pieces on these (not in the same store, excuse me for not providing links)...*

Swiftsure Black, DLC no-date - 1 each at Serious and the Watchdrobe

Thresher Black DLC - 1 each at Serious and the Watchdrobe

v.1 Barracuda Vintage Black DLC - 1 each at Serious and Watch Gauge

Nazario Vino Rosso DLC - 1 each on the NTH website and Serious

Scorpène White on Oyster - 1 each at IntoWatch and Five:45

Barracuda Brown, on BOR - 1 each on the NTH website and Serious


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

NWBD! Crown & Buckle heavy duty NATO&#8230;and heavy duty it is. Feels like it will be harder to break in than new leather. Got a black one with brushed SS rings for the Thresher.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> This exact convo just happened with my wife, who likes to watch those insipid Kardashian shows, after spotting this in my FB feed.
> 
> ME: Check this out. Look at the clock...
> 
> ...


She's one of the most talked about and admired people alive today.

I find that deeply depressing.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Maybe her house is in Aus?


Wish I hadn’t sold my megaphone…


What a great word “megaphone”… 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Maybe her house is in Aus?
> 
> Wish I hadn't sold my megaphone&#8230;
> 
> ...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16082043


Logomaniac&#8230;

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Can't tell if this Toro is broadcasting or receiving.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

True useless fact: Gibby Haynes, lead singer of the Butthole Surfers frequently used a megaphone while singing. Not for amplification, but for the resultant voice effect.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

As did Tom Waits at least once.






(butthole surfers... teenage me listened to them purely because of their name)


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> True useless fact: Gibby Haynes, lead singer of the Butthole Surfers frequently used a megaphone while singing. Not for amplification, but for the resultant voice effect.
> 
> View attachment 16082833


but did he do it &#8230;
drinking from a fountain
That was pourin' like an avalanche comin' down the mountain?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested (re, my Atticus Icarus)...

I added another link, dropped down one micro-adjustment hole on the clasp, and got the perfect fit on the bracelet, or close enough, for now, so...I guess that's a relief to anyone who was worried. I might have to shift one link to the other side of the clasp, as it seems like the head keeps pulling to the outside of my wrist.

I've been wearing it every day since I got it last week. I haven't really been making a point to wear it, exclusively. That's just my usual habit - wearing the same watch for days on end - but especially with new arrivals. 

I don't know if this happens to everyone else, but the more I wear it, the less "small" the case seems to me. I'll have to see if the same thing happens when I switch to the DevilRay. Will it feel less "big" after a few days? 

As far as the bracelet goes - I rarely notice differences in comfort, unless a bracelet just feels wrong for some reason. I haven't noticed that with the Atticus. Just the opposite - as it is with the Subs, I'll forget it's there, which is a compliment. 

I'm still ambivalent / indifferent about the design of the links. I think a simple H-link is my favorite, and just about every other style is fine, as long as it's comfortable enough.

It definitely scratches any lingering itch I had for something like an Aqua Terra, Sinn 556, or Tag Carrera, and then some. I like the stark, almost sterile no-date design of the Icarus better overall than any of those.

Well done, Rusty.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I think a simple H-link is my favorite...


Says the dude who makes watches with 3-link bracelets, and offers BoP aftermarket, but no H-Link option...

Yeah, yeah, L&H experience, sell what sells, etc. It's a good thing it turns out I like the feel of a 3-link (not oyster) bracelet as much as an H-link. And it's a great compromise with the oyster-uber-alles crowd.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> For anyone interested (re, my Atticus Icarus)...
> 
> I added another link, dropped down one micro-adjustment hole on the clasp, and got the perfect fit on the bracelet, or close enough, for now, so...I guess that's a relief to anyone who was worried. I might have to shift one link to the other side of the clasp, as it seems like the head keeps pulling to the outside of my wrist.


I was pleasantly surprised by how small the links are. They're just barely larger than half-links!

I did what I always do, and swapped out the clasp for a basic three-micro adjustment fliplock clasp (like the original NTH clasp, but 16mm) and can get a perfect fit.

The Atticus bracelet checks all of my "comfort" boxes - female SEL, 20mm-16mm taper, and half-links (well, regular links that are half-link sized).

Like you, I'm ambivalent about the bracelet style - I prefer a basic oyster, but I'm pretty conservative and boring by nature, so the Atticus bracelet forced me into something interesting and different, but I think in a good way.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Says the dude who makes watches with 3-link bracelets, and offers BoP aftermarket, but no H-Link option...
> 
> Yeah, yeah, L&H experience, sell what sells, etc. It's a good thing it turns out I like the feel of a 3-link (not oyster) bracelet as much as an H-link. And it's a great compromise with the oyster-uber-alles crowd.


Point taken.

When I was making L&H watches, I was consciously less concerned with staying "true" to the norms of any design theme. I just made what I liked, and what I thought looked good, or right, whatever.

But with NTH, and the brand's "vintage inspired" theme, I'm more consciously thinking about whether or not every design decision fits, and how.

I'll sometimes go "off-script", but generally, I try to "shoot center-mass" with our designs, as much as possible. An oyster or BOR bracelet is more in-line with the Subs designs than an H-link would be.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday post










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHursday/Thresher too! Sporting his new Crown and Buckle heavy duty NATO&#8230;


----------



## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Says the dude who makes watches with 3-link bracelets, and offers BoP aftermarket, but no H-Link option...
> 
> Yeah, yeah, L&H experience, sell what sells, etc. It's a good thing it turns out I like the feel of a 3-link (not oyster) bracelet as much as an H-link. And it's a great compromise with the oyster-uber-alles crowd.


On this topic, does anyone know of a decent aftermarket H-link bracelet under $100? I can only find hybrid mesh bracelets. They're fine, but I have a couple already.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Ozludo said:


> On this topic, does anyone know of a decent aftermarket H-link bracelet under $100? I can only find hybrid mesh bracelets. They're fine, but I have a couple already.


Watchgecko does a straight endlink version, but is not under $100...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't even (much) like this dial-hands combo so why would I have two watches set up like this? Shark-mesh bracelets, too.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#NTHursday


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Arrived just in time for #NTHursday

Mine at last&#8230;


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#NTHursday

Squatch approved!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Newest arrival and modded already. I picked up this Santa Cruz second hand with the intention to change out the Mercedes for Swords. I think it turned out rather nice.










I really like that this came on a BoP bracelet as I have not tried one before. I would agree that it is slightly nicer than the Jubilee, but only because of the quality and finishing of this one compared to my AliExpress special. Now I have five subs to choose between, I think I may have to let one go.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

#NTHursday


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> Newest arrival and modded already. I picked up this Santa Cruz second hand with the intention to change out the Mercedes for Swords. I think it turned out rather nice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Boy, you did well to match the sandy lume appearance between the hands and indices.

Looks great. I've always thought I'd like to try a different set of hands on my Santa Cruz.... over time I'm kinda starting to fall out of love with mercedes style hands. Well done.

Sadly my modding skills run only as far as strap and bracelet changes. I'm working up to swapping out my bezel insert on my Tikuna...I did swap batteries on my Suunto a long time ago.. that's about as close as I've ever gotten to opening up a case back. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

#NTHursday


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Way late entry from yesterday, #NTHursday.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TGI&#8230;.SWIFTSURE!


----------



## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Sadly my modding skills run only as far as strap and bracelet changes. I'm working up to swapping out my bezel insert on my Tikuna...I did swap batteries on my Suunto a long time ago.. that's about as close as I've ever gotten to opening up a case back.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Well the good news about the bezel insert swap is that it's super easy. There are instructions on the NTH site. I went with the hairdryer option; 30 seconds on high pointed at the half of the bezel I was going to initially lift, then just wedge a new razor blade between the bezel and the insert and just run it around the circumference of the bezel once inserted and parallel with the watch case. The harder part is getting rid of the residue from the old insert's tape.


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

A little Scorpene Blue action for Friday.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

I meant to post this yesterday for #NTHursday but the day got away from me.










Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Here's yesterday and today #NTHursday. Just ordered a Catalina insert for it as well.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Any owners of the DLC Barracuda vintage black gilt model on here? Don’t see a lot of pictures of that one. 


Sent from a van down by the river…


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Somebody say bezel swap?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Any owners of the DLC Barracuda vintage black gilt model on here? Don't see a lot of pictures of that one.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


There are only 13 in the wild, so far, out of just 20 assembled.

DLC is another of those things guys will ask me to make so they can promptly not buy it.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> There are only 13 in the wild, so far, out of just 20 assembled.
> 
> DLC is another of those things guys will ask me to make so they can promptly not buy it.


I'm the opposite end of the spectrum then.... 
I didn't ask for one, but I bought one. Put my name on that Vino Rosso list as soon as I could.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I'd be interested in seeing pictures of the nacken dlc if anyone has one.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

TheBearded said:


> I'm the opposite end of the spectrum then....
> I didn't ask for one, but I bought one. Put my name on that Vino Rosso list as soon as I could.


I didn't ask for one either, but it seems like it would be a sweet looking combo (Barracuda Vintage Black Gilt DLC). Don't see a lot of live pictures of it.

Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> I'd be interested in seeing pictures of the nacken dlc if anyone has one.


Only two pics I could find online.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> I didn't ask for one either, but it seems like it would be a sweet looking combo (Barracuda Vintage Black Gilt DLC). Don't see a lot of live pictures of it.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh, are we doing DLC pix today...


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16086431
> View attachment 16086432
> View attachment 16086434


Thanks Doc. It actually looks pretty sweet. Is there any sort of scratch protection on the case and / or bracelet by chance?

Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16086435
> 
> 
> Oh, are we doing DLC pix today...


That's badass.

Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Thanks Doc. It actually looks pretty sweet. Is there any sort of scratch protection on the case and / or bracelet by chance?
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


Yes.

Yes there is.

It's called "DLC".

It stands for "diamond-like carbon."

It's harder than woodpecker lips.

Harder than Chinese arithmetic.

Not quite as hard as Sergeant Brian Mack, but damned close.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> That's badass.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


If you like that, there's a 1 of 1 no-date we assembled, available on the website -









Scorpène - Black - DLC, No Date


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Doc, you're not burning all those DLC cases, are you? I'm still considering getting my Santa Fe blacked out. Also thinking of black sword hands. There's something very nautical about sword hands. If I get a black case and bracelet, would that leave me with an orphan steel caee . . . ?


----------



## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

I'm not afraid to admit that Doc had it right to install an unpainted stainless bezel insert on the polar cuda, but as a lover of lume, I needed more of it and the stock bezel only has it on the pip @ 12. So first I tried this, the Nacken bezel insert:








&#8230;but I feel like it lost some of its identity (in addition to looking too similar to my white dialed Nodus Duality). So today I put this on:








&#8230;from the Dolphin. So now I feel like it got its identity back, got its lume, and is truly polar now.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> I'm not afraid to admit that Doc had it right to install an unpainted stainless bezel insert on the polar cuda, but as a lover of lume, I needed more of it and the stock bezel only has it on the pip @ 12. So first I tried this, the Nacken bezel insert:
> View attachment 16086546
> 
> &#8230;but I feel like it lost some of its identity (in addition to looking too similar to my white dialed Nodus Duality). So today I put this on:
> ...


Lovely Beluga. That definitely works.

Let's see the lume!

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Doc, you're not burning all those DLC cases, are you? I'm still considering getting my Santa Fe blacked out. Also thinking of black sword hands. There's something very nautical about sword hands. If I get a black case and bracelet, would that leave me with an orphan steel caee . . . ?


We're planning to add DLC cases and bracelets to the website. Should hopefully happen within the next 30 days.

If you buy a DLC case, and swap it out with your stainless case, yes, that would leave you with an orphan steel case.

No, I'm not about to start selling dials, handsets, or movements.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> If you like that, there's a 1 of 1 no-date we assembled, available on the website -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aaannnnddddd... it's sold.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Well the good news about the bezel insert swap is that it's super easy. There are instructions on the NTH site. I went with the hairdryer option; 30 seconds on high pointed at the half of the bezel I was going to initially lift, then just wedge a new razor blade between the bezel and the insert and just run it around the circumference of the bezel once inserted and parallel with the watch case. The harder part is getting rid of the residue from the old insert's tape.


Thanks, and how did you get rid of the residue? I'm thinking I'm might use some of that citrus based goo off stuff. Just need to make sure I clean that stuff off well with rubbing alcohol after.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Remember that 650 quid watch I bought for 29.99? It arrived at home yesterday and I thought you would be interested in my wife's review (I'm still at sea so haven't seen the watch in the flesh yet)
"It feels like a fake watch you would buy on a street corner for a tenner, only worse"
"it looks like something a sweaty Turkish waiter would wear"
I am not sure who should be more insulted, Turks, waiters or sweaty folk, but I don't think I should sully Doc's thread with any images of this clearly "awesome" time piece. 

still a 95% saving though, bargain!


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> I'm not afraid to admit that Doc had it right to install an unpainted stainless bezel insert on the polar cuda, but as a lover of lume, I needed more of it and the stock bezel only has it on the pip @ 12. So first I tried this, the Nacken bezel insert:
> View attachment 16086546
> 
> &#8230;but I feel like it lost some of its identity (in addition to looking too similar to my white dialed Nodus Duality). So today I put this on:
> ...


Looks better with the dolphin bezel.

I think the nacken blue bezel would look good also. Somewhat similar to the omega smp tokyo edition.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> We're planning to add DLC cases and bracelets to the website. Should hopefully happen within the next 30 days.
> 
> If you buy a DLC case, and swap it out with your stainless case, yes, that would leave you with an orphan steel case.
> 
> No, I'm not about to start selling dials, handsets, or movements.


Will there be sapphire installed on the dlc cases as well?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

ryan850 said:


> Looks better with the dolphin bezel.
> 
> I think the nacken blue bezel would look good also. Somewhat similar to the omega smp tokyo edition.


I tried it but I personally like this bezel a bit more.









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> I tried it but I personally like this bezel a bit more.
> View attachment 16086789
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Thats a good one. You might be right. Mentioned the nacken because that's the first blue bezel I thought of.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> Thanks, and how did you get rid of the residue? I'm thinking I'm might use some of that citrus based goo off stuff. Just need to make sure I clean that stuff off well with rubbing alcohol after.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Goo gone should work just fine. I did my swaps at work where I have all sorts of sh*t to do the job. Like a real heat gun and gallons of goof off.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Black or blue on the Polar style look killer... but I do like the blue. Upon a time, I was considering purchase of a Polar and swapping out for a Vanguard insert.

Hair dryer and Goof Off is what works for me. In fact, I hit the insert at edges with a bit of goof off first, let it sit for some tens of minutes, and then do the hair dryer. Clean it up with Goof Off.


----------



## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Thanks, and how did you get rid of the residue? I'm thinking I'm might use some of that citrus based goo off stuff. Just need to make sure I clean that stuff off well with rubbing alcohol after.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Someone already mentioned Goo Gone, and that's what I used as well. Applied with a q-tip



ryan850 said:


> Looks better with the dolphin bezel.
> 
> I think the nacken blue bezel would look good also. Somewhat similar to the omega smp tokyo edition.


Thought about going blue, and the pic above proves that it looks great, but my goal was to go back to the more "dressy" vibe of the original whereas the black/blue inserts make it look more tool-ish, IMO


----------



## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Someone already mentioned Goo Gone, and that's what I used as well. Applied with a q-tip


Warm, soapy water (I used dish soap) and a q tip will work as well.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Arent there any worries that solvent will affect the crystal gasket?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> Arent there any worries that solvent will affect the crystal gasket?


With the speed that Goof Off evaporates I had no concern. But Goo Gone really isn't a "solvent" per se. It's basically a mix if citrus oil/extracts and some petroleum based chems.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

gavindavie said:


> Remember that 650 quid watch I bought for 29.99? It arrived at home yesterday and I thought you would be interested in my wife's review (I'm still at sea so haven't seen the watch in the flesh yet)
> "It feels like a fake watch you would buy on a street corner for a tenner, only worse"
> "it looks like something a sweaty Turkish waiter would wear"
> I am not sure who should be more insulted, Turks, waiters or sweaty folk, but I don't think I should sully Doc's thread with any images of this clearly "awesome" time piece.
> ...


Wait - so you are saying sweaty Turkish waiters DON'T wear the coolest watches??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Thanks, and how did you get rid of the residue? I'm thinking I'm might use some of that citrus based goo off stuff. Just need to make sure I clean that stuff off well with rubbing alcohol after.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Will there be sapphire installed on the dlc cases as well?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


It's a complete case - crystal, crown, and case-back - ready for an innards-swap.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Artix for under $600, thought about @docvail









sold







www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

One of the last play sessions before ida comes









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Artix for under $600, thought about @docvail
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, but I'm good. I wanted the black or the blue, on bracelet. Even if it came up now, I probably wouldn't get it, since I just got the Atticus Icarus. It would be redundant, and I prefer the Icarus overall.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> One of the last play sessions before ida comes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good luck and be safe!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#SwiftsureSaturday


----------



## schwiiing (Jul 12, 2017)

Y heo68l886o9
My6ljm u ok 555
Humility and ty the o minimum tk
Mojito 9u56 00 ⁰p6iTapm9lnli up 8ll on a clip to paste it in the text box.Use the edit icon to pin, add or delete clips.Use the edit icon to pin, add or delete clips.un9

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Saw this fellow today








(Apologies. It's not the best focused picture I've ever taken).


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

schwiiing said:


> Y heo68l886o9
> My6ljm u ok 555
> Humility and ty the o minimum tk
> Mojito 9u56 00 ⁰p6iTapm9lnli up 8ll on a clip to paste it in the text box.Use the edit icon to pin, add or delete clips.Use the edit icon to pin, add or delete clips.un9
> ...


Huh?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> One of the last play sessions before ida comes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Atticus has activated the mobile office. We got outta dodge this morning. Hope you're in the higher part of that area! Stay safe!

-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Atticus has activated the mobile office. We got outta dodge this morning. Hope you're in the higher part of that area! Stay safe!
> 
> -Rusty
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Be safe gents!!!


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

schwiiing said:


> Y heo68l886o9
> My6ljm u ok 555
> Humility and ty the o minimum tk
> Mojito 9u56 00 ⁰p6iTapm9lnli up 8ll on a clip to paste it in the text box.Use the edit icon to pin, add or delete clips.Use the edit icon to pin, add or delete clips.un9
> ...


Go to bed.... you've had quite enough to drink! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## schwiiing (Jul 12, 2017)

schwiiing said:


> Y heo68l886o9
> My6ljm u ok 555
> Humility and ty the o minimum tk
> Mojito 9u56 00 ⁰p6iTapm9lnli up 8ll on a clip to paste it in the text box.Use the edit icon to pin, add or delete clips.Use the edit icon to pin, add or delete clips.un9
> ...


My apologies. That's funny. Walking on the beach with the dog. Guess my phone was sending pocket texts.

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

schwiiing said:


> My apologies. That's funny. Walking on the beach with the dog. Guess my phone was sending pocket texts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


To be honest... that post makes more sense than half the posts in this thread! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> To be honest... that post makes more sense than half the posts in this thread!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Only half?


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Go to bed.... you've had quite enough to drink!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


My first thought too 😆


schwiiing said:


> My apologies. That's funny. Walking on the beach with the dog. Guess my phone was sending pocket texts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


👍


Rhorya said:


> Only half?


Word.
Who is this Doc guy that hogs all the posts anyway.. ... ??

😉


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

WOT did you say?


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

sunday, SUNday, SUNDAY&#8230;


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> One of the last play sessions before ida comes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a happy dog!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

schwiiing said:


> My apologies. That's funny. Walking on the beach with the dog. Guess my phone was sending pocket texts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


"Covfefe".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> To be honest... that post makes more sense than half the posts in this thread!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


And not nearly as long.


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

At work with the Icarus


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

I just completed a deal with the owner of the largest Rolex AD and ONLY Grand Seiko AD in my state. He was wearing a Tudor chrono...and complimented the Atticus after inquiring about it. He was thoroughly impressed with the subtle details and commented on how nice the finishing is, particularly given the price point. @rpm1974

Super normal down to earth kind of guy, which was refreshing, given the magnitude of his operation.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

BVB, DLC, No-date. One of only 10 assembled, but modded with Kiger Red Ronin / Oberon II bezel insert, making it a one-of-one, on eBay.

Not my listing.









NTH Barracuda Vintage Black DLC No Date - Sapphire, Stainless Steel | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH Barracuda Vintage Black DLC No Date - Sapphire, Stainless Steel at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Ima get all snobby and say a modded watch is not "x of y," unless it originally came from NTH that way.

[says the guy with a "true" 1 of 1, NTH DLC Scorpene Date with Catalina bezel.]

But that is a damn cool watch.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Lucy approved


----------



## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

Aaand <drum roll> IT'S ON THE WAY. Courtesy of a very nice fellow in this thread, I have a lightly used gilt Amphion en-route. Which goes to show that this is where the cool people hang out.
Very happy camper.

Doc, if you're tracking prices: $600 (US) + $75 shipping and insurance to Oz (which is quite reasonable at the moment). I'll probably pay another 10% tax when it lands.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Bored


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Ozludo said:


> Aaand <drum roll> IT'S ON THE WAY. Courtesy of a very nice fellow in this thread, I have a lightly used gilt Amphion en-route. Which goes to show that this is where the cool people hang out.
> Very happy camper.
> 
> Doc, if you're tracking prices: $600 (US) + $75 shipping and insurance to Oz (which is quite reasonable at the moment). I'll probably pay another 10% tax when it lands.


It was me. After all the fuss I'd made about wanting one, when I finally got one it had to be a catch and release.

@Ozludo was so vocal about wanting one, I just reached out to him directly and sold it to him at cost.

I'll get one eventually if it pops up again. Right now was just a bad time for a $600 impulse purchase.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Ima get all snobby and say a modded watch is not "x of y," unless it originally came from NTH that way.
> 
> [says the guy with a "true" 1 of 1, NTH DLC Scorpene Date with Catalina bezel.]
> 
> But that is a damn cool watch.


An interesting tangent of philosophical debate.

When we made the Cerberus, I thought of them as "factory customs", because we used colored rehauts, something I'd never seen done before. But then we took it a step further, when we offered the opportunity to convert a "stock" Cerberus into a "black tie" Cerberus, via a dial swap. We sold the dials (I think), but also offered to do the swap if customers sent their watches into us.

Does it matter who does the assembly? Sincere question. What if someone buys a DLC case and swaps in their Scorpène innard? Does that render the ones we assembled no longer "one of one"?

Is any mod a one-off?

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MrDisco99 said:


> It was me. After all the fuss I'd made about wanting one, when I finally got one it had to be a catch and release.
> 
> @Ozludo was so vocal about wanting one, I just reached out to him directly and sold it to him at cost.
> 
> I'll get one eventually if it pops up again. Right now was just a bad time for a $600 impulse purchase.


You're awesome. Just in case no one else mentions it.

And so is everyone else here, btw.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> An interesting tangent of philosophical debate.
> 
> When we made the Cerberus, I thought of them as "factory customs", because we used colored rehauts, something I'd never seen done before. But then we took it a step further, when we offered the opportunity to convert a "stock" Cerberus into a "black tie" Cerberus, via a dial swap. We sold the dials (I think), but also offered to do the swap if customers sent their watches into us.
> 
> ...


Well yeah, any mod is technically a one-off.

Question is if there's any benefit to a factory one-off vs. an owner modded one-off. Might depend on the mod. Bezel insert swap, meh; hands and dial... maybe I want the person covering the warranty to have done the work.

Typically, provenance is important, too, so a documented factory custom may end up carrying more weight than just something I threw together.

But seriously, whatevs - previous statement was totally tongue in cheek, and sometimes the modded is more desirable. No interest on my end for an Amphion, but I ended up buying that Nazario Ghost / BSH Bromax MilSub mash-up... even though, were I to sell it, I wouldn't expect it to fetch as much as an unmolested Amphion.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> You're awesome. Just in case no one else mentions it.
> 
> And so is everyone else here, btw.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

All you guys and your awesome pics. I am now on the Atticus mailing list for availability, and I blame you


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Talking of mods, here is an "improved" Sub spied at a recent WIS event in London, the perpetrator will remain nameless..........










Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I cannot help myself. I love the overall designs of the Subs, and they look so good on my wrist, but each had something I felt I could improve.










The first one I bought was the Amphion Vintage Blue, which I loved, but the dial was almost black in most light. I tried to persuade Chris to make a Modern Blue Amphion with a sunburst gilt dial but he was having none of it.

Then another user put his modded Santa Fe up for sale, with the skeleton snowflake hands, and I had to have it now that the Mercedes hands were gone. I swapped out the standard bezel, with BGW9 lume, for an Oberon with C3 and a red triangle as I prefer the lume to match.

When the Barracuda Blue came out I decided to buy one and do the swap for the Amphion blue bezel and some gilt sword hands, to make my own Amphion modern blue.

Finally I added the Santa Cruz and swapped the hands from the Amphion Vintage Blue, as they were a colour matched, making it work for my tastes ( I dislike Mercedes hands!!!!)

This has left me with the Barracuda bezel, Amphion VB dial and Santa Cruz Mercedes hands as the odd man out. It has all the bits I did not like from the other models, but as all the parts are NTH it still works as a cohesive design. I think I may sell this one as I will never wear it.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Omegafanboy said:


> I cannot help myself. I love the overall designs of the Subs, and they look so good on my wrist, but each had something I felt I could improve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think your Barracuda-"Amphion Modern Blue" is particularly sharp.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

are we still doing #NTHTuesday?
I've only got one more Tuesday onboard after this one


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Right on cue, this madness just popped up in my FB feed...
> 
> View attachment 16062283
> View attachment 16062284
> ...


This particular moron bait isn't new. I've seen it in nearly the exact same form as far back as 2006. It's well crafted to get idiots in the door though, as you can see by the long list of dummies clamoring to sell them their 10 year old POS with over 100,000 miles for "msrp". 
As for that particular dealer, they're well known for their shady antics.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chillin by the pool in Cape May, NJ today.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Chillin by the pool in Cape May, NJ today.
> 
> View attachment 16093452
> 
> ...


Enjoy the day Chris! Well deserved!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Antilles, sort of chillin' in the blue light of the UV torch............










Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Day lume


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Enjoy the day Chris! Well deserved!


Deserve it or not, I'm taking it.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Jezec (Jul 24, 2014)

Any NTH fans that like to use leather straps on NTH divers? I got a distressed wax custom strap (no padding) for the watch and it works well for me. The Barracuda is just so versatile - been wearing it the last few days and it's definitely one of my favorite divers. This is the V2, btw.


----------



## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

Speaking of NTH divers on leather...here's a thing...










(No, not the Union Pacific #4014 "Big Boy" in the background...although that IS a thing and it arrived here at Kansas City Union Station this evening.) I know...there's a vocal segment of the InnerWebz that dislikes any diver on leather. I'm afraid if that bunch sees a diver on a leather BUND, they might just go schizo. Anyway, I'm not in love with it--yet--but I sure don't hate it! I think the look of the Bahia works pretty well with it. My bony wrist doesn't help the look!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

bogray57 said:


> Speaking of NTH divers on leather...here's a thing...
> 
> View attachment 16094205
> 
> ...


I actually don't hate it. I have a few bands and actually like them depending on the watch. On that it actually looks good. And you call THAT a bony wrist?! Mine puts most to shame my friend  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Broome Western Australia - Mangrove Swamps with L&H Commander 300


----------



## theunderground (Feb 27, 2020)

Just picked up this Nacken Modern Blue V2. Very nice!


----------



## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




----------



## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Deleted


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ragl said:


> Talking of mods, here is an "improved" Sub spied at a recent WIS event in London, the perpetrator will remain nameless..........
> 
> View attachment 16092759
> 
> ...


Let me think. NTH with mercedes hands, it's now got sword hands...
Hmmmm...... Has he done it to...like... three or four of them?...... 🤔🤔.

Sorry no idea who you're talking about 😏


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Jezec said:


> Any NTH fans that like to use leather straps on NTH divers? I got a distressed wax custom strap (no padding) for the watch and it works well for me. The Barracuda is just so versatile - been wearing it the last few days and it's definitely one of my favorite divers. This is the V2, btw.
> 
> View attachment 16094013


I think the colors of the Vintage Black Barracuda work well on leather. This one is the Malt Padded Leather from B&R Bands


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

catsteeth said:


> Let me think. NTH with mercedes hands, it's now got sword hands...
> Hmmmm...... Has he done it to...like... three or four of them?...... 🤔🤔.
> 
> Sorry no idea who you're talking about 😏


Look upthread for a complete fess-up with a blow by blow account and evidence of said NTH Sub improvements........


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ragl said:


> Look upthread for a complete fess-up with a blow by blow account and evidence of said NTH Sub improvements........


Yeah lol. I realised that after I'd posted.... 
But I was kidding anyhow. He was really helpful when I was thinking about doing something similar with my 'cuda.


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## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

One of Vail's finest works...


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Sun was out so the Antilles got a walk around the helideck.










And the lume got supercharged


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Chatoboy said:


> I think the colors of the Vintage Black Barracuda work well on leather. This one is the Malt Padded Leather from B&R Bands
> View attachment 16095403


Looks phenomenal. I just ordered one for my AVG. Thanks for the pro tip!


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## Jezec (Jul 24, 2014)

Chatoboy said:


> I think the colors of the Vintage Black Barracuda work well on leather. This one is the Malt Padded Leather from B&R Bands


The way you capture the strap looks better than the pictures shown in the B&R site. Looks like a great combination and now I'm contemplating on getting the same strap. Does the padding make the strap a bit more stiff out the box?


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Jezec said:


> The way you capture the strap looks better than the pictures shown in the B&R site. Looks like a great combination and now I'm contemplating on getting the same strap. Does the padding make the strap a bit more stiff out the box?


The strap is a little stiff when new, but breaks in pretty quickly and holds a nice curvature that makes it really comfortable to wear. I liked the quality so much I ordered one in 22mm for my Orient.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHursday


----------



## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

#NTHursday


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

#NTHursday

Amphalina? Catalion?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

sgtlmj said:


> #NTHursday
> 
> Amphalina? Catalion?


fraNTHenstein?


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

Wasn't happy with the new Antilles dials, but I lucked into the first edition shortly afterward.









And then found this for a nice price.









But Bentley prefers the Antilles


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Well things are largely okay here

Shockingly got power yesterday

The big hurdle is routine gas shipments and my work is 50 miles to my west and I don't know what's happening

Got a coworker from Hammond in my spare bedroom.

Despite the hurdles that remain I am in a far better position than so many

Big news is a cold front next week is coming









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mr.Boots said:


> But Bentley prefers the Antilles
> 
> View attachment 16097167


Blaze says Swiftsure all the way&#8230;


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

these are todays local headlines from last night wicked storm and we had multiple tornados touch down in the area . go figure today is bright and sunny and cool.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I have a buddy lives a stones throw away from Mullica Hill NJ, he saw the tornado on the ground, sent me this pic last night. This was literally like 20 minutes after it happened.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Rhorya said:


> I have a buddy lives a stones throw away from Mullica Hill NJ, he saw the tornado on the ground, sent me this pic last night. This was literally like 20 minutes after it happened.


its so crazy, this usually never happens here. My Aunt and cousin live near there in Franklinville. I think the house you posted is actually in one of the news pics i posted


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHursday (afternoon edition)

Now Blaze says "Swiftsure or no Swiftsure, YOU jump over these damned things&#8230;it's freakin' hot out here"! Heat index currently 100, humidity 40%.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> fraNTHenstein?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Thankfully, I don't think the tornadoes came anywhere near where I live, but we did get lots of flooding.

My house sits at a modestly busy intersection of two back-roads, with a creek running alongside one of them. Seems like the sidewalks and street will flood with every big rainstorm, for at least a block in every direction. Thankfully, my house is up on a little hill, so we don't get flooding in the basement or anything like that (knock wood).

Last night, I noticed they had half a dozen cop cars, a fire truck, and even an ambulance out there, in the intersection and beyond, trying to direct people away from the area. 

I got to watch as one lady literally - not figuratively - tried to drive around one of the squad cars, like she was the next contestant on "let's see how well your SUV floats". 

Gotta love living in the Philly burbs. No patch of water is too deep for a local Karen to not want to test it out for herself.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


>


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

im not really a country music fan, but my wife is, so we went to the Thomas Rhett, Cole Swindell concert last Friday. I wore my Amphion Vintage Gilt.. of course the pic of my watch looks terrible lol
Like I said, Im not into Country (more rock and metal), but I had such a good time! 


























http://imgur.com/qsAScn8


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Before cleanup&#8230;


















Thankfully, nothing landed on the house:










After cleanup&#8230;

Dang. I thought I took pics of the now-cleared driveway.

The back yard is a complete mess. We lost 8 or 9 trees on our 3/4 acre lot.

Bring on that cool front!

-Rusty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Well things are largely okay here
> 
> Shockingly got power yesterday
> 
> ...





rpm1974 said:


> Before cleanup&#8230;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you both faired well (all things considered). Long days ahead, stay safe and come here for much needed mindless shenanigans


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apparently we had some flooding...

Just spotted this video in my FB feed, and took a screenshot. This shows a man floating in an inner tube on I-676, (aka the Vine Street Expressway), that cuts through the center of Philadelphia, connecting I-95 with I-76.

It's below surface street level, but the city is 39 feet above sea level, so I'd guestimate the roadway is probably at least 10 feet above sea level.










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More pics here - Photos and videos of the flooded highway in the middle of Philadelphia

Just a sampling...

(Usually a highway, not a river)


----------



## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

It’s painful looking at all these pics of flooding, damage, etc. I hope everyone is safe. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> More pics here - Photos and videos of the flooded highway in the middle of Philadelphia
> 
> Just a sampling...
> 
> ...


Legit looks like a river through the city


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Legit looks like a river through the city


Right?

My wife was supposed to be in Mullica Hill, New Jersey, on business, today, but the meeting was cancelled.

I've never heard of a business meeting canceled because of tornado, in this part of the country. Canceled because of snow, sure, but never because of tornado.

Worked out well for her. She got to stay at the Jersey shore all day.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Gone old-school today with my L&H Orthos










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Omegafanboy said:


> Gone old-school today with my L&H Orthos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats my favorite Orthos version! I've always wanted one of those


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

docvail said:


> I got to watch as one lady literally - not figuratively - tried to drive around one of the squad cars, like she was the next contestant on "let's see how well your SUV floats".
> 
> Gotta love living in the Philly burbs. No patch of water is too deep for a local Karen to not want to test it out for herself.


YouTube search: Ozzy Man Reviews: Floods


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> More pics here - Photos and videos of the flooded highway in the middle of Philadelphia
> 
> Just a sampling...
> 
> ...


Holy ****; that's insane. You've got all the flooding on the east coast, and we're totally burning up (literally) on the west coast. Strange days we're living in.

Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sgtlmj said:


> YouTube search: Ozzy Man Reviews: Floods


Ozzy Man is the best. His reviews of Pandas are hilarious.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mr.Boots said:


> Wasn't happy with the new Antilles dials, but I lucked into the first edition shortly afterward.
> View attachment 16097159
> 
> 
> ...


Love the brown dial on that Antilles.

Bentley looks like a _very good boy_.


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

catsteeth said:


> Love the brown dial on that Antilles.
> 
> Bentley looks like a _very good boy_.


Bentley is a good boy. He's 3/4 English Bulldog and 1/4 Boston Terrier. Breeders are trying to revive an old breed, Olde Boston Bulldogges.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mr.Boots said:


> Bentley is a good boy. He's 3/4 English Bulldog and 1/4 Boston Terrier. Breeders are trying to revive an old breed, Olde Boston Bulldogges.
> 
> View attachment 16099336
> 
> View attachment 16099338


That is a great face. Lovely brindle type coat and beefy. Were they working dogs?


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

catsteeth said:


> That is a great face. Lovely brindle type coat and beefy. Were they working dogs?


At one time. The cross-breed creates a Bulldog that can climb stairs and eliminates many of the Bulldog issues like skin eczema and cherry eye. We've had a Boston in the past and a 120 pound Olde English Bulldogge in the past and thought this would be a good combination. He's 15 month and 70 pounds, very intelligent and protective of our 4 grandchildren, and a great sleeper.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Broke out the 1 of 5 on its matching NATO today. The background is my newest project. The first of four bolt together modules for a laboratory.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One of my favorites today. NTH Barracuda Brown on BOR. Don't hate me cause I'm blingtastic...










This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Broke out the 1 of 5 on its matching NATO today. The background is my newest project. The first of four bolt together modules for a laboratory.
> View attachment 16099523


I don't generally go for matchy matchy, double denim, strap n' dial, looks. But that's actually pretty damn cool!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone paying attention (or not, whatevs)...

We had a few models / versions sell out recently. I've tried to keep track as best I can. I think this is the list of SKUs that sold out within the last week:

Swiftsure White with Date
Barracuda Polar White no Date
v.1 Näcken Modern Blue no Date
Amphion Commando with Date

We're down to 1 piece left on these:

Nazario Azzurro - Nazario Azzurro

Bahia no date - 인투와치 (be sure to email IntoWatch to remove the tax before your purchase, if you're not in Korea.)

Oberon II no date (last Oberon II in the world) - NTH Oberon II No Date

Swiftsure White no Date (last Swiftsure White in the world) - 2K1 Subs - Swiftsure - White | NTH Watches Hong Kong

Barracuda Polar White with Date (last Polar in the world) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-polar-white-date

Nazario Vino Rosso, stainless - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=206&cate_no=60&display_group=1 
(be sure to email IntoWatch to remove the tax before your purchase, if you're not in Korea.)

Amphion Commando no Date (last Commando in the world) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-amphion-commando-no-date


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh, also - Dan's wrapping up QC on the DevilRays now. They should all ship out to retailers by Monday at the latest, and be available for purchase sometime next week.

There won't be any DevilRays avaialble from the NTH website. If you want one, you'll need to get one from one of our retail partners. I'd get in touch with them now.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

@docvail 
I thought I remembered seeing something about new designs coming soon for the V2 subs in this thread, any word on that (if that is in fact the case)?

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> @docvail
> I thought I remembered seeing something about new designs coming soon for the V2 subs in this thread, any word on that (if that is in fact the case)?
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


It is in fact the case.

I don't have 3D illustrations yet.

Rusty's been screwing off, blaming it on hurricanes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> @docvail
> I thought I remembered seeing something about new designs coming soon for the V2 subs in this thread, any word on that (if that is in fact the case)?
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra





docvail said:


> It is in fact the case.
> 
> I don't have 3D illustrations yet.
> 
> Rusty's been screwing off, blaming it on hurricanes.


I don't yet know when I'll reveal them. On the one hand, we like to promote new designs in advance of them being available for purchase, in order to build some anticipation. On the other hand, there's a school of thought that people might opt not to buy what you have in stock if you show them something you've got coming soon.

Sometimes, when we reveal an upcoming design, it seems like some competitor will follow with something eerily similar soon after.

I think we're expecting the new designs in December-ish. Maybe November. I think we can hold off at least until mid or even late October. We've got the new release of DevilRays coming in now, and another round of Tropics, including 2 new colorways, coming next month. No sense in muddying the water by showing off the 2 new v.2 Subs designs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of the new DevilRays, I think the 2 Watch Gecko versions came out pretty nice...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Believe it or not - those images above are 3D illustraions.

Here are some craptastic photos I took inside & outside Dan's shop...


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Believe it or not - those images above are 3D illustraions.


Holy Moses. That's amazing.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Holy Moses. That's amazing.


Guess I'm fired.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

rpm1974 said:


> Guess I'm fired.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Out of curiosity, were there discussions of doing an orange bezel instead of steel / grey on the white Watchgecko custom variant? I think they missed the boat on that. Orange bezel with white dot sounds perfect 

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

It came out looking great as is, the orange bezel would just have been a little more wild. Maybe the idea was subdued to begin with and I'm missing the boat? 

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> Out of curiosity, were there discussions of doing an orange bezel instead of steel / grey on the white Watchgecko custom variant? I think they missed the boat on that. Orange bezel with white dot sounds perfect
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


Can't do orange pvd.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Can't do orange pvd.
> 
> This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


Oh...well that kills that idea. It would look killer though! 

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

The 2 Watchgecko ones are DA BOMB 💣 👌


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

That white dial devilray is killer.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

12 hour shift first day back to work thank god









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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Someone shot and killed someone down in Jefferson parish over gas today









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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Post edited per rules

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Rust proof knife is perfect here
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I ain't no snitch, my man. And I love a good blade. But pics of knives are verboten.

Mods might give ya a wrist slap for that.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I ain't no snitch, my man. And I love a good blade. But pics of knives are verboten.
> 
> Mods might give ya a wrist slap for that.


Oh well

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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

@docvail ordered a 'nearly new' Barracuda Polar yesterday!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

npl_texas said:


> @docvail ordered a 'nearly new' Barracuda Polar yesterday!


Congratulations! Where in TX are you?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> I don't generally go for matchy matchy, double denim, strap n' dial, looks. But that's actually pretty damn cool!


I dont think it would work as well if the case was SS instead of the DLC.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I dont think it would work as well if the case was SS instead of the DLC.


Now that is an interesting idea. I'm sure you're right. It's also a case of matching the colours together properly. I no expert but I should a imagine a near match is as good as no match.

When I find a ghost version with a twelve hour bezel, it's mine. I've already missed a scorpene with twelve hour through lack of allowable funds, I don't want to do it twice.

I've only ever had one black watch, and that was a pvd black Spinnaker Hull in full murdered out configuration. I'd actually decided to keep it when someone bid for it, so off it went.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> Now that is an interesting idea. I'm sure you're right. It's also a case of matching the colours together properly. I no expert but I should a imagine a near match is as good as no match.
> 
> When I find a ghost version with a twelve hour bezel, it's mine. I've already missed a scorpene with twelve hour through lack of allowable funds, I don't want to do it twice.
> 
> I've only ever had one black watch, and that was a pvd black Spinnaker Hull in full murdered out configuration. I'd actually decided to keep it when someone bid for it, so off it went.


I've got one other PVD watch, an Alpina Startimer Pilot Shadow. It looked wrong to me when I strapped on with a black strap, so it lives on a Barton Canvas. Either OD Green or Khaki.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I've got one other PVD watch, an Alpina Startimer Pilot Shadow. It looked wrong to me when I strapped on with a black strap, so it lives on a Barton Canvas. Either OD Green or Khaki.
> View attachment 16100741


Sorry for the thread Hijack Doc.

It's a very small world. I was looking at both steel and pvd (non murdered) versions of that exact watch only yesterday.
It's just more of my current fleiger (and big watches) odyssey. I really like them, and at the £350 (Inc import tax, p&p, handling) they're going for they look very tempting.
I _really really_ want one, but I've got seven watches currently with one pre-order coming.
I just can't do it. However, I might lose my Steinhart B-type to get it. But I've only had the Steinhart for a week, after owning the previous B-type for only three days....🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️ It's a form of insanity I'm sure.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> I've got seven watches currently with one pre-order coming.












I'm currently sitting on 20, with two new GM-2100s coming soon. That'll put my Casioak count to three, and my G-Shock count only one shy of my total number of NTHs. Of those current 20, 3/4 get worn in regular intervals.

As for the Startimer, if you're on a larger watch kick, and you can pull 'em off, I say go for it! Its damn thin and quite comfy. Mine was in manufacture spec for spd, but it was right there at the high end, so I gave it some adjustment myself. It currently runs about +4spd. But I think I only paid $380 for it, so, no complaints.


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Congratulations! Where in TX are you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


San Antonio


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

npl_texas said:


> San Antonio


Boooooooooooooooo!!!

Love, 
Dallas


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Boooooooooooooooo!!!
> 
> Love,
> Dallas


You must be up there hanging out with the TPG crew


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

npl_texas said:


> You must be up there hanging out with the TPG crew


I'd actually love to see that crew out in public. If only to point and laugh.

What a pack of tools.


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> I'd actually love to see that crew out in public. If only to point and laugh.
> 
> What a pack of tools.


Haha, are they not the Dallas stereotype??


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

npl_texas said:


> @docvail ordered a 'nearly new' Barracuda Polar yesterday!


Thank you sir! We'll get it shipped out Monday.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

npl_texas said:


> San Antonio


Me too! I'm by 1604 and Bulverde

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Me too! I'm by 1604 and Bulverde
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


1604/281


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Switched back to the Commando insert. It grew on me while I was waiting for the Catalina insert to arrive. If anyone wants a Catalina lmk.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I also got an itch for a pvd watch. Had to be a diver, had to have 20mm lugs and be 40mm.

Took a look at some of the dlc watches doc has done but I wasn't sure how much I would like it so didn't want to commit to that much for the watch.

Ended up with this scurfa. I like pvd now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> I also got an itch for a pvd watch. Had to be a diver, had to have 20mm lugs and be 40mm.
> 
> Took a look at some of the dlc watches doc has done but I wasn't sure how much I would like it so didn't want to commit to that much for the watch.
> 
> Ended up with this scurfa. I like pvd now.


Did that strap come with the watch? It looks like one of ours.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Did that strap come with the watch? It looks like one of ours.


It looks very similar.

If you have any pvd watches laying around, you should pop one on and take some pics.

It would look awesome.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> It looks very similar.
> 
> If you have any pvd watches laying around, you should pop one on and take some pics.
> 
> It would look awesome.


Unfortunately, we don't have any laying around.

I'd have to go review old emails with my vendor, but if memory serves, we ordered 50 DLC cases/bracelets (in the 40mm v.1 Sub size), and we've used around 43 in assembly (40 pieces in mass assembly, and I think 3 for one-offs).

The rest of the cases / bracelets are in the shop, waiting for me to stop laying around, create some SKU numbers and bar codes for them, and give those to Dan, so he can label them and ship them to the warehouse, so people can buy them.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Wondering if Atticus is to NTH, as Tudor is to Rolex. Sometimes I have nothing else to think about.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Wondering if Atticus is to NTH, as Tudor is to Rolex. Sometimes I have nothing else to think about.


Well, for one thing, I don't own any piece of Atticus, nor do I have any financial stake in its success. I'd like to see Atticus do well because the owner is a friend and long-time contributor to the success of my business.

The most selfish reason I have for wanting Rusty to succeed is that I've been coaching him along the way. And so his results somewhat validate that coaching.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone seen this thread?









What is special about Halios?


I am a bit confused by the hype that surrounds Halios. Whenever they make a new release, you will find many comments on their instagram posts about it being sold out while people were filling out their payment info! We're talking selling out in under 2 min here. To me that's crazy. The only...




www.watchuseek.com





I thought this guy summed it all up pretty well (without agreeing or disagreeing with him regarding Rolex):










I've said for a while that the only real solution when a brand seems to sell out instantly is for the brand to raise prices.

Increasing supply usually isn't a very viable solution for these brands, or at least not the small ones, because they're almost certainly already bumping up against the limits of their own capacity to design, produce, sell, and deliver the watches they're already producing and selling.

It makes logical sense, to me. If a brand sells out, instantly, but could immediately return with more inventory to sell, why wouldn't they? The answer is that they probably can't. As I've so often said - there are only so many hours in the day.

Just curious how others would solve the puzzle of brands selling out instantly, if the solution is NOT raising prices?

And, if you agree with me, and think the solution IS to raise prices, how would you go about determining the right price?

I'm not looking for anyone to put a specific number on a specific watch, per se. I'm just curious how people think a brand owner should or would go about determining the "correct" price for their product, if the current price is obviously too low (or too high, for that matter, which is also a problem, which should be obvious).


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Hm. Rolex probably is pricing their subs lower than they should. The rest of their lineup could be adjusted up or down depending on how long they sit. Same rules, same game, as you’ve demonstrated over the years, just with a scale difference.

I’d imagine that pricing would be a continuously evolving marker, up as costs increase, up for too fast turnover, down for stagnant sales. Perhaps, much easier for smaller more nimble brands to adjust(maybe?) to those market pressures.



I’m curious how much pressure there is on price when another, perhaps more established, brand purchases another brand to capitalize on the purchased brand’s success. 

*Example: I have noticed that Glycine prices have stagnated(or decreased somewhat, for some of their models), since Invicta snapped them up. Is this a customer perception related decrease? Or has volume increased enough to disrupt Glycine’s original balance? 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Anyone seen this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even if halios raised prices nth would still be lacking in value and be too much for what they are.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

sgtlmj said:


> Switched back to the Commando insert. It grew on me while I was waiting for the Catalina insert to arrive. If anyone wants a Catalina lmk.


Hmmmm....now maybe I should switch back to the Commando from the Kiger insert- looks good!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Even if halios raised prices nth would still be lacking in value and be too much for what they are.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


I should expand. If you are using after sales pricing is why I make that statement. Nth sells used for $400-500 and halios and Rolex sell over msrp. Also exclusivity is no doubt part of the appeal for some. Rolex and halios both make a lot of money, no need to push the matter by raising prices or producing more units. Although halios has tried to meet needs woth open ordering.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> I should expand. If you are using after sales pricing is why I make that statement. Nth sells used for $400-500 and halios and Rolex sell over msrp. Also exclusivity is no doubt part of the appeal for some. Rolex and halios both make a lot of money, no need to push the matter by raising prices or producing more units. Although halios has tried to meet needs woth open ordering.


It's more about inventory turnover and timing of sales, cash flow, and ordering new production inventory.

"After sales pricing" is actual market value. Selling for less than market value leads to shortages. Too low price = more demand; too much demand = supply shortage.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Just saw barracuda brown on Instagram

I’m gonna start telling myself I hate that watch


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Has anyone with both v1 and v2 subs taken side by side comparison shots?


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch&#8230;










Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

[email protected] C said:


> Hmmmm....now maybe I should switch back to the Commando from the Kiger insert- looks good!


I was actually thinking of buying a Kiger/Oberon insert and swapping around. I just bought a bunch of adhesive disks.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Love full indexed bezel inserts.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Hm. Rolex probably is pricing their subs lower than they should. The rest of their lineup could be adjusted up or down depending on how long they sit. Same rules, same game, as you've demonstrated over the years, just with a scale difference.
> 
> I'd imagine that pricing would be a continuously evolving marker, up as costs increase, up for too fast turnover, down for stagnant sales. Perhaps, much easier for smaller more nimble brands to adjust(maybe?) to those market pressures.
> 
> ...


I kinda wanted to avoid getting into a discussion about whatever Rolex is doing, and whether or not they're actually doing it all deliberately, or if there's a bit of "tulip craze" thing happening.

But regarding this: "I'd imagine that pricing would be a continuously evolving marker, up as costs increase, up for too fast turnover, down for stagnant sales. Perhaps, much easier for smaller more nimble brands to adjust(maybe?) to those market pressures," I'd say yes and no. "Correct" pricing is both art and science.

There's a minimum markup from cost to sales price that a business needs in order to stay in business. Above that number, any "premium" the brand earns is a function of appeal (that which creates demand), but also somewhat dependent on supply - less supply, the higher the product can theoretically be priced, the more supply, the lower it likely needs to be priced, in order to avoid getting stuck with a lot of unsold inventory.

What your comment seems to suggest is that prices could theoretically be adjusted up or down as needed, more or less in real time, reacting to turnover. But I think there are just too many practical challenges. A brand can lower prices by having a sale, or raise prices, but to do so too frequently would likely lead to trouble. I think most businesses would find it ideal to correctly price their products in the first place, so that they wouldn't have to adjust based on results.

So...if costs go up, prices should theoretically go up, but may not, because of market pressure pushing prices down. Faster turnover (or in the case of some brands, selling out instantly, or close to it) should push prices up, and yet, some brands refuse to raise their prices (like Rolex, and some micros) as a way to adjust to higher demand. Brands which price too high can lower prices, but that can damage the brand's reputation, and ability to remain financially viable.

I suspect Glycine was having trouble before the brand was sold to Invicta. It's likely WHY the brand was sold to Invicta. While the sale of the brand to Invicta may have hurt Glycine's reputation with many enthusiasts, I think the lower prices are more the result of Invicta's (correct) assessment that the brand's previous prices were too high. I'd argue the recent prices could be higher, but that doesn't seem to be a game Invicta wants to play. They seem to be happy "making it up on volume", if they are.

My commentary above is really just "thinking out loud" in reaction to a frequent observation - many people seem to get upset when a brand sells out instantly, then sells for more on the secondary market. The experience of trying to get one becomes too unenjoyable. We see people kvetching about "scalpers" and brand owners talking about order-bots trying to game the system.

Within that thread I linked to, about Halios, I noticed some folks seem to have their own ideas about how to solve the problem - wait lists, better ordering systems, whatever. But nothing I've seen proposed by anyone really addresses the underlying issues of low supply versus high demand.

When demand for a product outstrips supply, there are only a few things a business can do - increase production, and / or raise prices. Of course, every consumer's knee-jerk response will be, "don't raise prices - increase production instead!" But that's not always possible.

As an example - last I heard, there was a 13 year waiting list for season tickets for the Philadelphia Eagles. The team's stadium only holds so many people. They can't just "make more seats available" and sell more tickets (though I think they did create some "standing room only" section not too long ago).

My buddy's season tickets have a face value of $80, but when the team is doing well, those tickets sell for $200-$300 on StubHub (i.e, "the secondary market"). That's a clear sign the $80 face value is too low. If the team started gradually raising prices for season ticket holders, the waiting list would start to get shorter, until they reach the equilibrium point - the point at which demand and supply are balanced, because the price is "correct".

I figure once those $80 tickets get to be about $120-$160, the waiting list will be down to 1-2 years, tops, and secondary market prices will be much lower than they are now.

Halios is a one-man-show. I think Helm is, too. Ditto for Obris Morgan. Ditto for most microbrands. There's a limit to how much any microbrand can increase production, when the business doesn't scale very well. If one guy is doing all the designing, all the production management, all the QC, all the order fulfillment, all the customer support, etc, there's a point at which he literally CAN'T increase production any more, because he doesn't have any more time available to do any more QC, order fulfillment, or customer support.

Every hour spent doing additional QC, order fulfillment or customer support is an hour that can't be spent doing new model design or production management.

At that point, the only choice he has is to raise prices. And I'd argue that raising prices should probably be the first thing the brand does, before they try to increase production, if the brand is selling out instantly, and the watches are selling for more than retail price on the secondary market. That's a clear sign that the price is just too low. In many cases, the brand is working off too-thin margins.

Notice the numbers in my season ticket example. The team sells nose-bleed-seating tickets for $80. But then those tickets sell for $200-$300 on the secondary market, because a lot of the season ticket holders who paid $80 for the tickets actually attend the games, which leads to a "shortage" of tickets available to non-season-ticket holders, who end up paying more on the secondary market.

Even if a season-ticket holder decided they no longer wanted to attend the games, they'd be nuts to NOT buy the tickets, knowing they could make a profit selling them on the secondary market. The season-ticker holders who sell their tickets are basically "scalpers", taking un-earned value from both the team and the people buying the tickets.

If the team wanted to know the real "market value", it wouldn't be $200-$300. The team isn't leaving $120-$220 on the table by selling those tickets for $80. If they started raising ticket prices, a lot of the people happy to pay $80 per game would give up their season tickets, as soon as the price gets to be too high for them. A 50%-100% increase would thin the herd out, very quickly.

The team would find the "correct" price before they got to the current secondary market price. It would be win-win. The team would make more money, and the people currently paying $200-$300 would get to see a game for much less.

The only "losers" in that scenario are the people who've been happily buying under-priced season tickets every year. No doubt they'd be kvetching about the higher ticket prices, and angry at the team. They'd probably go online and complain about the poor "value for money" in attending a game. No doubt the guys who used to sell their season tickets for a profit would be really upset.

It's the same way with Rolex, or Halios, or any brand in that situation. If they raised prices, demand would come down to the point there wouldn't be that "feeding frenzy" to get one. You'd be able to get one any time you had the money and were willing to plunk it down (so long as you didn't wait so long they sold out). And you wouldn't see such high values on the secondary market.

Of course, then you'd have guys complaining about their "poor value for money"...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not that it matters, probably, but for anyone curious about my methodology for setting prices, I have a three-step process, which we taught in Microbrand University...

Step 1 - start with the minimum multiple of cost needed to effectively run the business (there's a number, but I'm not discussing it publicly).

Step 2 - look at "competitive benchmarks" . What are other similarly-spec'd and similarly-designed watches from other brands selling for? How does your brand and watch compare to those?

Step 3 - find ways to differentiate your watch and brand from those competitors, as a means to support the price you need to charge.

If a brand goes through this exercise, and finds that they can't charge what they need to, I'd advise them to kill the idea, the same way I would. I'd only go through with the project if the final result is a watch that can be sold for the price the business needs in order to remain viable.

The goal is to end up being comfortable in what I call the "high end of the reasonable range" for the product. This is where the product price is justified by the differentiators of both it and the brand, but not too high, as proven by the inventory turnover:


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Pre-Invicta Glycine used eta movements with their own branded rotors and called them Gl224.

I have a few pre-Invicta models. After Invicta I’m dubious as to whether Invicta is keeping out of Glycines business other than pricing models, or is pushing lower quality methods to reduce costs, like going with Sellita movements.

Among buyers, its now become a selling point as to whether its a “pre-Invicta” model or not.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Rhorya said:


> Pre-Invicta Glycine used eta movements with their own branded rotors and called them Gl224.
> 
> I have a few pre-Invicta models. After Invicta I'm dubious as to whether Invicta is keeping out of Glycines business other than pricing models, or is pushing lower quality methods to reduce costs, like going with Sellita movements.
> 
> Among buyers, its now become a selling point as to whether its a "pre-Invicta" model or not.


That movement switch might have something to do with the on-off ETA movement supply for third party sales. Maybe&#8230;

I highly doubt the non-wis gives two hoots that Invicta owns Glycine, and likely most WIS don't care either. The only time that I remember much Glycine content, was the feeding frenzy sparked by "discount" prices for a bit. Weird that there hasn't been a renewal of interest now that the prices have settled near or below those "discount" levels.(Not really weird, their association with the dreaded Invicta has knocked them off the WUS radar&#8230; I should buy one&#8230

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I didn't care if it was pre- or post-Invicta buy-out, when I was into Glycine. Owned models from both eras, and honestly could not tell the difference.

However, the models which interested me most - Combat 6 36mm, and a few of the smaller Airman models - used to go for stupid cheap pricing, and are now quite a bit more expensive.

Like Invicta made a correctuon one way, and is now feeling their way back up the price ladder.

So anyway, here's a watch, 1/1 mrdrd out Scorpéne date w/ Catalina bezel insert...


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

docvail said:


> I kinda wanted to avoid getting into a discussion about whatever Rolex is doing, and whether or not they're actually doing it all deliberately, or if there's a bit of "tulip craze" thing happening.
> 
> But regarding this: "I'd imagine that pricing would be a continuously evolving marker, up as costs increase, up for too fast turnover, down for stagnant sales. Perhaps, much easier for smaller more nimble brands to adjust(maybe?) to those market pressures," I'd say yes and no. "Correct" pricing is both art and science.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your insight, Doc......fascinating.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Rhorya said:


> Pre-Invicta Glycine used eta movements with their own branded rotors and called them Gl224.
> 
> I have a few pre-Invicta models. After Invicta I'm dubious as to whether Invicta is keeping out of Glycines business other than pricing models, or is pushing lower quality methods to reduce costs, like going with Sellita movements.
> 
> Among buyers, its now become a selling point as to whether its a "pre-Invicta" model or not.


Maybe among people who only just found out about what happened 5 years ago and don't like Invicta. Those of us who own them know that only two things have changed...

1. Grey market prices went through the floor. I'm thinking this has more to do with high margins no longer being a necessity after the acquisition and Invicta's relentless desire to move product than any change in quality.

2. Movements changed from ETA to Sellita which is 6 vs. half dozen, and as pointed out, has nothing to do with the acquisition anyway. Most non-Swatch brands have been forced to make that switch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Pre-Invicta Glycine used eta movements with their own branded rotors and called them Gl224.
> 
> I have a few pre-Invicta models. After Invicta I'm dubious as to whether Invicta is keeping out of Glycines business other than pricing models, or is pushing lower quality methods to reduce costs, like going with Sellita movements.
> 
> Among buyers, its now become a selling point as to whether its a "pre-Invicta" model or not.





captainmorbid said:


> That movement switch might have something to do with the on-off ETA movement supply for third party sales. Maybe&#8230;
> 
> I highly doubt the non-wis gives two hoots that Invicta owns Glycine, and likely most WIS don't care either. The only time that I remember much Glycine content, was the feeding frenzy sparked by "discount" prices for a bit. Weird that there hasn't been a renewal of interest now that the prices have settled near or below those "discount" levels.(Not really weird, their association with the dreaded Invicta has knocked them off the WUS radar&#8230; I should buy one&#8230
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


I had a pre-Invicta Glycine Combat Sub, in early 2014, purchased for $570, including shipping. Prior to that, they'd been selling for over $800. I wrote a review of it, in which I concluded it was a $500-$600 watch, tops.









The Glycine Question - ($300 changes everything) - a...


Don had a few. Larry had a few. Robert had a few. I wanted a Glycine for my collection. I'd looked at theirs, and I wanted one for myself. That's how watch coveting works. (Show me "though shall not covet thy forum-mate's Glycine" in the WUS rules, and I'll stop. Until then, get off my case.)...




www.watchuseek.com





Looking back now, post-Invicta purchase, and thinking about movement costs, and making some guesses about Invicta's business, I don't know what I think "fair price" would be, but as long as the quality and support hasn't changed too much since the pre-Invicta days, I'd say it's probably still in that range, maybe a tad higher, because "Swiss" movement.

How did they get away with charging over $800 for them? Or, DID they get away with it? The Invicta sale suggests they might not have been. And yet, I remember, before my purchase of one, apparently "knowledgeable" collectors on this forum were paying that, and even I had the perception that they were "good quality".

Perceptions of "value" and "quality" can be highly brand-dependent, and price-dependent. Marketing psychology has demonstrated that people will often perceive (read: "imagine") products to have lower or higher quality based on both brand alone, and price alone. No doubt some of the brand's former "prestige" has been diminished not just because of the association with Invicta, but because prices have come down so much.

Case in point - I had to talk to Dan yesterday, about shipping DevilRays to our retailers. As an aside, he told me someone asked him to take a look at a watch from another, VERY well-known and much larger brand, whose divers watches go for about double what an NTH Sub does.

He basically said it was crap - bad bezel action, bad crown action, plastic movement spacer, weak movement, not a very well-thought out design, from a functional standpoint, etc. He asked how the brand gets the prices they do for such crappy watches.

Answer - it's a well-known brand, with "heritage", and they get fawning praise from the horologic press, as well as "knowledgeable" enthusiasts on this very forum. The price itself helps to create and reinforce the impression that the watches are better than they are. People's perceptions are warped, and no one who eventually realizes it is eager to admit it, if they made a purchase, at least not until after they've sold the watch.

Essentially, they're selling $700 watches for $1300, but good luck convincing people paying $1300 of that. But, if the brand was sold to Invicta, or a similar company, and prices came down to $500, with no change in the product, people would all assume the quality and value had come down.

So...I dunno, but I'm willing to assume that current Glycines are pretty nice watches for what they cost, even if I wouldn't expect much in the way of support if one turned out to be a dud, simply because Invicta isn't known for standing behind the product they sell.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> I had a pre-Invicta Glycine Combat Sub, in early 2014, purchased for $570, including shipping. Prior to that, they'd been selling for over $800. I wrote a review of it, in which I concluded it was a $500-$600 watch, tops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmmm, I bet I'm not alone here in mentally clicking through the potential suspects for the "very well known brand" that sells divers for $1,300 that are overpriced &#8230;. But I don't know enough to make a really good guess. C'mon idiot savants, clue me into what Doc's probably talking about. Who are the prime suspects?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

To get back to photos rather than all this talk about brands and VFM, I submit this:


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Ike2 said:


> Hmmmm, I bet I'm not alone here in mentally clicking through the potential suspects for the "very well known brand" that sells divers for $1,300 that are overpriced &#8230;. But I don't know enough to make a really good guess. C'mon idiot savants, clue me into what Doc's probably talking about. Who are the prime suspects?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seemed pretty obvious to me but I won't spoil the fun of guessing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Hmmmm, I bet I'm not alone here in mentally clicking through the potential suspects for the "very well known brand" that sells divers for $1,300 that are overpriced &#8230;. But I don't know enough to make a really good guess. C'mon idiot savants, clue me into what Doc's probably talking about. Who are the prime suspects?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Please don't do that here. If I wanted the brand discussed here, in this thread, I'd have provided the name.

Any discussion of it here will just lead people to say I was trash-talking a competitor, despite the fact I avoided naming them.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Please don't do that here. If I wanted the brand discussed here, in this thread, I'd have provided the name.
> 
> Any discussion of it here will just lead people to say I was trash-talking a competitor, despite the fact I avoided naming them.


Dammit.... I was just about to get into my suspect list.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Please don't do that here. If I wanted the brand discussed here, in this thread, I'd have provided the name.
> 
> Any discussion of it here will just lead people to say I was trash-talking a competitor, despite the fact I avoided naming them.


Sorry for making trouble. I wrongly assumed if the group members idly speculated it would not be an issue but I get it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> I had a pre-Invicta Glycine Combat Sub, in early 2014, purchased for $570, including shipping. Prior to that, they'd been selling for over $800. I wrote a review of it, in which I concluded it was a $500-$600 watch, tops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seiko selling $700 watches for $1200, differs from you(nth) selling $400 for $700 how exactly?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Sorry for making trouble. I wrongly assumed if the group members idly speculated it would not be an issue but I get it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No apology needed. Thanks for understanding the difficult position such discussions put me in.

Anything I say publicly can be used against me. Unfortunately, too many people are more than wiling to use what OTHERS say against me.

I try not to criticize anything any other brand does, specifically, with very few exceptions, which are generally the most egregiously and unanimously offensive.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

JLS36 said:


> Seiko selling $700 watches for $1200, differs from you(nth) selling $400 for $700 how exactly?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Right off the bat, I'd say $200&#8230;
&#8230;and then there is the undervaluing of NTH in your query.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

MrDisco99 said:


> Maybe among people who only just found out about what happened 5 years ago and don't like Invicta. Those of us who own them know that only two things have changed...
> 
> 1. Grey market prices went through the floor. I'm thinking this has more to do with high margins no longer being a necessity after the acquisition and Invicta's relentless desire to move product than any change in quality.
> 
> 2. Movements changed from ETA to Sellita which is 6 vs. half dozen, and as pointed out, has nothing to do with the acquisition anyway. Most non-Swatch brands have been forced to make that switch.


Thank you, yes. I agree with both, they're still excellent budget Swiss Watches.

For a third major change, (if you'll pardon me for butting in):

3. New additional impetus, and drive in: Production, Marketing, and new Model Design.
They've even begin using quartz movements for some of the cheaper models.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

josiahg52 said:


> Love full indexed bezel inserts.


You know, not so much for me. Depending on the watch, they sometimes feel a little too busy. But to each his own.









I love. LOVE. my AVG. This thing gets far and away more wrist-time than anything else in my collection. It is near perfection in my book. The only thing I'd change is to swap the full indexed bezel for the non-indexed BVB bezel. But that instinct isn't enough to overcome my conservative bias towards preserving the watch in its original configuration, the way the person who designed it intended. I feel that instinct strongly enough that I'm constantly debating between the BoP and the original oyster bracelet. The oyster feels "truer", but the BoP is just too bloody comfortable. I do get that Chris chose the full index 1) because it's faithful to the MilSub 2) to distinguish it from the BVB.

Can't wait for the weather to cool down a bit so I can throw this thing on the new B&R strap that I just picked up (h/t Chatoboy). Also, running about +1 to +1.5 seconds/day lately.

ETA: Since Hodinkee is doing a weekend rewind to a bunch of dive watch articles, re-read a week-on-the-wrist review of the Tudor Black Bay this morning. Then for the 1,000th time, perused the Black Bay line-up and thought about buying one. And then for the 1,000th time realized that if I bought one, I'd find myself wondering why I just dropped $3,700ish on a watch whose case and bezel I don't like as much as my NTH AVG. I know we've been going round on the standard "value" argument again, and everyone thinks about value differently. To me, if my $700 NTH scratches an itch that would otherwise result in the purchase of a 5x luxury watch, that's value.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

JLS36 said:


> Seiko selling $700 watches for $1200, differs from you(nth) selling $400 for $700 how exactly?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


I have one Seiko. Listed for $595 but it was $323 after whatever combination of a discount/sale/promotion Macy's always has going. Nice watch. Love the dial but overall it is not executed as well as the NTH Thresher. It's in the details. $300 is a great price. $600 would not have been such a deal. Seiko is capable of excellent finishing and execution.

I think my Thresher represents a good value. Clearly you don't. Sale price is part the cost of raw product and whatever the brand you buy from adds to the equation. It is obvious to all that a Thresher doesn't cost $700 or whatever for NTH to acquire. I don't know how much an NTH costs and neither do you despite your education and experience.

Even if it's a $400 watch that is selling for $750, I don't care. It's a nice watch and the rest buys me the ability to purchase what I want when I want from a multitude of retailers, an owner who is engaging and answers pretty much every question, doesn't rely on inane social media outlets, has spare parts, isn't offended when watch owners modify their watches, etc. Some of those things have no real value or are valued differently by different people. It is a business after all. Profit is expected, allowed, and welcome.

Halios was mentioned earlier and I'm frustrated. Halios is like a black hole for information. What is the production schedule? How many will be available? Is it a nice watch? People say so. Wish I could find out for myself. I want a Fairwind and at $700, I'd be in. More than that, I'd aggressively search for a used one even if the higher price made more new watches available.

I have one Glycine, an Airman 2000. I love the watch but it needs serviced. Since Invicta took over, the repair/service experience has not improved sadly. It's true you only hear about the bad experiences but those I've read about have been pretty bad. I'd much rather send it to a trusted independent but they lock down parts worst than Swatch Group. It's for this reason I won't purchase another Glycine, or Fortis for that matter.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Coriolanus said:


> You know, not so much for me. Depending on the watch, they sometimes feel a little too busy. But to each his own.
> View attachment 16104996
> 
> 
> ...


I do agree that the insert should match the vibe of the watch. I think full indexed could work on more watches if it were tried.

I also think about a Black Bay. The black dial and blue bezel (M79230B-0008) is nice but the different colors makes my eye twitch. I don't get it. Is it harkening back to an old design/model?

I can appreciate a date complication but the date version (M79730-0006) has a bright silver bezel insert. Too much for me. Why not a black insert with silver print?

The gold/red arrow version (M79230N-0009) is nice. It has the bezel insert I wish the others had.

Why do I want a Tudor, though? Cachet? I don't know. The Rolex link is nice. The Submariner has become something I don't like. Super refined, polished, ceramic all over, and expensive. The Tudor seems like a decent watch more in line with what the Submariner is/should be/used to be. It's also readily available.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

josiahg52 said:


> Why do I want a Tudor, though? Cachet? I don't know. The Rolex link is nice. The Submariner has become something I don't like. Super refined, polished, ceramic all over, and expensive. The Tudor seems like a decent watch more in line with what the Submariner is/should be/used to be. It's also readily available.


I'm puzzled by the fact that seemingly very few names have gone to PVD/DLC bezels. My AVG bezel has taken several good whacks, and not a visible mark on it. About a month after I bought my Speedie, I accidentally brushed the bezel against the kitchen sink faucet. Scarred for life. The aluminum bezels on the Black Bays are one of the reasons that I steer away. I know just how that would turn out.

Chris has talked about the color limitations of PVD. I'd love a burgundy bezel on an NTH sub, but apparently that's just not a possibility yet.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

- Facebook
+ WatchUSeek










#muhswiss

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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Thresher? THRESHER? Did somebody say THRESHER?


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Thresher on a NATO. I was wondering what it might look like. 

We approve.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Another NTHish-Glyciney-Tudorific homage&#8230;


























Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> I'm puzzled by the fact that seemingly very few names have gone to PVD/DLC bezels. My AVG bezel has taken several good whacks, and not a visible mark on it. About a month after I bought my Speedie, I accidentally brushed the bezel against the kitchen sink faucet. Scarred for life. The aluminum bezels on the Black Bays are one of the reasons that I steer away. I know just how that would turn out.
> 
> Chris has talked about the color limitations of PVD. I'd love a burgundy bezel on an NTH sub, but apparently that's just not a possibility yet.


We could and have done burgundy, with the Holland...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Coriolanus said:


> I'm puzzled by the fact that seemingly very few names have gone to PVD/DLC bezels. My AVG bezel has taken several good whacks, and not a visible mark on it. About a month after I bought my Speedie, I accidentally brushed the bezel against the kitchen sink faucet. Scarred for life. The aluminum bezels on the Black Bays are one of the reasons that I steer away. I know just how that would turn out.
> 
> Chris has talked about the color limitations of PVD. I'd love a burgundy bezel on an NTH sub, but apparently that's just not a possibility yet.


I wish steel PVD/DLC bezel inserts were more readily/easily employed. I'll accept the reduced color availability but hope that someone develops alternate methods to color steel.

I don't eschew ceramic bezel inserts. The Scurfa Bell Diver and Treasure Seeker have ceramic bezels and those are exquisite watches with a real diver's pedigree. NTH and Scurfa are the microbrand dolls in my life right now. Maybe it really is the cost and availability of the Submariner that drives me away. Really, I think it's a desire for the "old" days. I don't like the gloss dial. I don't like the gloss bezel insert. I really don't want the polished white gold details. After about 2010, I became less enamored with the Submariner. Watch Rolex come out with a "heritage" model with matte aluminum bezel and dial and a $15k price tag next year.

I think the durability of aluminum bezels are fine. It depends on the surface preparation. Back in the Navy when I was doing Navy stuff, I busted my Marathon GSAR bezel twice. First time, I knocked the triangle lume off of the bezel and the bezel action got wonky. Second time, it became bi-directional - with difficulty - and then after a few turns, completely locked up. Bezel was dinged up but the insert was fine. Sent it to Jim Madrid and it was fixed. The GSAR insert has a very rough texture and a Type III or IV hardcoat anodized finish. The Tudor insert is much smoother, a little brighter and I don't expect it to be as durable.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I have one Seiko. Listed for $595 but it was $323 after whatever combination of a discount/sale/promotion Macy's always has going. Nice watch. Love the dial but overall it is not executed as well as the NTH Thresher. It's in the details. $300 is a great price. $600 would not have been such a deal. Seiko is capable of excellent finishing and execution.
> 
> I think my Thresher represents a good value. Clearly you don't. Sale price is part the cost of raw product and whatever the brand you buy from adds to the equation. It is obvious to all that a Thresher doesn't cost $700 or whatever for NTH to acquire. I don't know how much an NTH costs and neither do you despite your education and experience.
> 
> ...


RE, Halios - I think it's inarguable that they could sell for more, new. If the price went up, the feeding frenzy around each new release would evaporate, and secondary market prices would come down. That's just basic economics.

But my personal opinion is that the quality, design, support and limited production numbers would all justify a higher retail price. They're very well-designed, very well-made watches, which could easily and justly sell for more than they do.

I look to the Synchron Military as a reasonable benchmark for the Halios Fairwind, in terms of price. If the Synchron is a $990 (pre-order)-$1290 (in-stock) watch, on a rubber strap, I'd say the Fairwind belongs in that same range.

If they sold for that much, new, they wouldn't sell out as quickly, and secondary market prices would likely be lower, to the point you might find one for $700.

RE, your trouble getting a Glycine serviced - I'm sorry to read that. I haven't looked into it recently, but last I did, my understanding was that independent watchmakers weren't having too much difficulty sourcing Selitta parts if needed, assuming those parts would work for your watch.

Given the low prices for a new Glycine, I'd consider their purchase price as being "no-warranty", and skip the official support channel in favor of an independent watchmaker.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> I'm puzzled by the fact that seemingly very few names have gone to PVD/DLC bezels. My AVG bezel has taken several good whacks, and not a visible mark on it. About a month after I bought my Speedie, I accidentally brushed the bezel against the kitchen sink faucet. Scarred for life. The aluminum bezels on the Black Bays are one of the reasons that I steer away. I know just how that would turn out.
> 
> Chris has talked about the color limitations of PVD. I'd love a burgundy bezel on an NTH sub, but apparently that's just not a possibility yet.


I think most non-WIS aren't asking what the bezel insert is made of when they're buying in an AD, so few if any of them are turning their nose up at aluminum inserts. Meanwhile, the salespeople are likely astute enough to mention if the bezel is ceramic or sapphire, with the appropriate accompanying tone (a tone suggesting it's some sort of exotic material).

Among WIS, I don't think PVD/DLC steel bezels have gotten the same traction ceramic or sapphire bezels have simply because more brands haven't embraced them. It's a bit of the dog wagging the tail, followed by the tail wagging the dog. The logic is basically = Rolex does it, so it must be "right", then other brands do it, then customers come to expect it, then you're a heretic if you question or challenge it.

Honestly - it's not like I woke up one day and had an epiphany about how awesome steel bezels are. When I told my vendor I wanted to lume all the markings on the Phantom bezel, my vendor suggested steel, saying it couldn't be done with aluminum (I'm not entirely sure that's still true, assuming it was then). My affinity for steel as a bezel material grew out of that experience, and further developed by way of reading and thinking more about all the alternative options, along with their relative pros and cons.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’m excited to say that coated steel bezel inserts are just starting to trickle into the mod world. It looks like the colour options are still limited as per NTH’s suppliers. Yay, more option$… 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I wish steel PVD/DLC bezel inserts were more readily/easily employed. I'll accept the reduced color availability but hope that someone develops alternate methods to color steel.


I'm honestly unsure why the colors are limited the way they are.

A few years back, I was investigating domestic suppliers, and it seemed like the color choices for PVD were more varied, but I just did some internet searching, and couldn't find any examples of colors we definitely can't get.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Help! Here’s my current watch purchase conundrum: 

As preface, I already have plenty of divers and really shouldn’t be adding another at this point, though I only have one NtH so there’s that. 

I have been quite excited for months about buying one of the soon to be released blue DevilRays. What a gorgeous and unique watch, right? Doesn’t look anything like my other divers (and it is so “pretty” it might even get comments from the ladies). And it’s got a freaking multicolored depth gauge!

BUT I also have a strong desire to pick up a used black no-date Odin. It looks a LOT like the Seamaster 300 from my birth year- in a good way because I think that was probably the acme of Omega’s diver designs. I even prefer the vintage 300 to the vintage Rolex subs. 

Thanks for indulging these solipsistic musings. 

Arrgh. Damn you Vail. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, get both. Easy peasy.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Re: Sapphire and ceramic inserts, it's for sure a case of that's what Rolex does. I said as much a few pages back but it's not a unique or earth-shattering take. For some watches, it's great. I don't think it's a case of a watch can't be good or fine or elegant without one. It's just the idea is to be "worth it" or "luxury" it has to have one is plain stupid.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Re: Glycine repair, it has an ETA 2893-2 inside with a display back. I could take or leave the display back. Even considered buying a new ETA movement, sourcing a solid back, and fix it myself.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

josiahg52 said:


> Well, get both. Easy peasy.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, Namokimods is selling steel bezel inserts.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Help! Here's my current watch purchase conundrum:
> 
> As preface, I already have plenty of divers and really shouldn't be adding another at this point, though I only have one NtH so there's that.
> 
> ...


It took me a minute to get my head right after the mention of "acme".

"Acme" is a local supermarket chain here in Philly. Some people pronounce it "ack-a-mee". It hurts my ears to hear it that way, which is exactly how I hear it in my head whenever I read it.

Okay, since we got that out of the way...

I don't know if we'll ever make more of the Odin in black. We made 100 dials, and used them all in assembly. If we do make more, it won't be any time soon, and likely not in the v.1 case. If you want one, and you see one for sale, I'd suggest you buy it.

We've made 100 of the blue v.2 DevilRay, and are about to release 50 more later this week, and we have another 50 dials we might use in future assembly. Even if we don't, there will still be 150 blue v.2 DevilRays in the world, compared to only 100 of the black Odin.

Date / no-date numbers are half of those, for both. So, doing maths...lemme see here, put the 150 on top...is that the numberator or the denomnominator...doesn't matter...put the 100 on bottom...your future odds are 3:2 in favor of finding a used DevilRay before you find another used Odin.

A search of WatchRecon shows only 3 Odin Black in the results, all sold (all no-date, too, coincidentally). A search of eBay turns up one old (sold) listing, also a no-date.

Point being - they don't come up for sale too often. If you see one, grab it.

Then again...doing the same search for a blue DevilRay doesn't turn up a lot of results, either...

...I should have quit at "Ack-a-mee"...


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> It took me a minute to get my head right after the mention of "acme".
> 
> "Acme" is a local supermarket chain here in Philly. Some people pronounce it "ack-a-mee". It hurts my ears to hear it that way, which is exactly how I hear it in my head whenever I read it.
> 
> ...


Good points. I remember Acme supermarkets. They used to be down here in Bawlamer, hon. We have folks here who refer to Westminster as "West-minister" so I feel your pain. As for the 1968 era Seamaster 300, I considered calling it the apogee of their designs but that seemed too pompous. I guess I could have gone with apex&#8230;

I do think I "need" to get a blue DR. But I will also keep my eye on WatchRecon for the black Odin. Even though I have become a strictly no-date guy in recent years, the way you handled the date window placement and style on the Odin is perfect so I don't think I would mind it at all&#8230;.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

So it's been 3 weeks or so since I received my Nacken and it still feels like it's day one. Sure, I've been through honeymoon phases before but every watch I have has at least one thing that I wish they had changed on it. I have yet to find one on this piece yet.

I'm a firm believer in the old saying that you get what you pay for and for whatever my small opinion is worth, I got what I paid for with NTH. Quality in everything, not just watches is almost always disappointing in this day and age but this time, I won. 








I mean cmon just look at that dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> So it's been 3 weeks or so since I received my Nacken and it still feels like it's day one. Sure, I've been through honeymoon phases before but every watch I have has at least one thing that I wish they had changed on it. I have yet to find one on this piece yet.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in the old saying that you get what you pay for and for whatever my small opinion is worth, I got what I paid for with NTH. Quality in everything, not just watches is almost always disappointing in this day and age but this time, I won.
> View attachment 16105497
> ...


Thanks for the kind words. I'm happy if you're happy.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Hey&#8230; just wondering, does anyone with a Nacken Modern date want to trade for my Nacken Modern no-date? I miss having a date!

Mine has a stainless Polar Cuda bezel but I could remove it, and swap it with yours if needed, or could swap with the stainless bezel and buy another for myself.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Right off the bat, I'd say $200&#8230;
> &#8230;and then there is the undervaluing of NTH in your query.


I'm not sure what/where you are getting the $200 amount. As for the other 4, the seiko numbers are from vail and the nth numbers are what you could buy the nth sub for in 2016 vs today, I just rounded down too $700 on today's number. Both prove changes are very close percentage of today's sale price. So the change of price is negligible as far as difference.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> We could and have done burgundy, with the Holland...
> 
> View attachment 16105268


You know, this whole time I thought that bezel was brown.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> You know, this whole time I thought that bezel was brown.


Nope.

The color is not the same as the Barracuda Brown. The insert on the Barracuda Brown is a more neutral shade of brown - a balanced mix of red and green / yellow.

The insert on the Holland has more red / purple in it, making it less neutral. It's burgundy, or close enough.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

More awesome Thresher pics&#8230;WIRW on 7 Sep 21


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

JLS36 said:


> I'm not sure what/where you are getting the $200 amount. As for the other 4, the seiko numbers are from vail and the nth numbers are what you could buy the nth sub for in 2016 vs today, I just rounded down too $700 on today's number. Both prove changes are very close percentage of today's sale price. So the change of price is negligible as far as difference.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


NTH - 400 - 700 = 300; Seiko - 700 - 1200 = 500; 500 minus 300 = 200

And if you think there's been no inflation, rises in cost of materiel, rise in shipping fees, etc., from 2016 to now (2021), I'll have to get the flawed logic memes out again.

Finally, I'll take a $700 NTH with EVERYTHING aligned and a 6 year warranty any day over a $1200 Seiko with a 2 year warranty (or less), and its within Seiko standards misaligned dials and bezels (of which I own one and won't waste my money on another).

Here is an answer Seiko provided a customer (from another forum post):

"We had forwarded your inquiry to Seiko Japan, they reply as below:

Actually, as the watch is one of the mass produced products, the printing misalignment on the dial and 
the misalignment of the dial legs' positions are allowed to some extent; we set the appearance standard.
Meanwhile, we think it is difficult to adjust the misalignment by repair as it is due to a variety factor (e.g. dial print, dial legs).

Therefore, please kindly ask the customer to accept the appearance level by explaining the above and the fact that you explained to the customer before the replacement that it could not be guaranteed that the appearance would be improved dramatically as the watch was within standard originally."

if you want to pay $1200 for that kind of customer service (and product), feel free.

I'm not really sure what your axe to grind is with NTH, unless you're just anti-capitalism, but if you don't want one, don't buy one. Personally, I'm looking forward to the next NTH(s) that grab my attention so I can add more to my collection. Quality at its finest, an owner who stands by his product, exceptional accuracy&#8230;well worth the minimal price of admission to become an NTH owner/collector.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Public service announcement: occasionally someone will show up with a repetitive argument about something that no one else agrees to, and if you hit the ignore button, he goes away. You don’t see any of his regular thoughts or impressions or opinions. It will change your life


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> We could and have done burgundy, with the Holland...
> 
> View attachment 16105268


Wow they go together beautifully. It's an NTH Rolesium (stealing from a _very_ well known brands naming system).
Interesting that it's actually burgundy.


docvail said:


> "Ack-a-mee"...


That physically hurts my ears, where do they find all the extra vowels from?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Wow they go together beautifully. It's an NTH Rolesium (stealing from a _very_ well known brands naming system).
> Interesting that it's actually burgundy.
> 
> That physically hurts my ears, where do they find all the extra vowels from?


Lots of vowels in Philadelphia and Delaware County.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Public service announcement: occasionally someone will show up with a repetitive argument about something that no one else agrees to, and if you hit the ignore button, he goes away. You don't see any of his regular thoughts or impressions or opinions. It will change your life


I was ahead of the curve on that one.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Lab4Us said:


> NTH - 400 - 700 = 300; Seiko - 700 - 1200 = 500; 500 minus 300 = 200
> 
> And if you think there's been no inflation, rises in cost of materiel, rise in shipping fees, etc., from 2016 to now (2021), I'll have to get the flawed logic memes out again.
> 
> ...


Boy, I was lucky with my Tuna then... now if only Doc would offer a Tunaesque Nth.....

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DevilRays - 

Have all been shipped (well, mostly - the watches going to the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong haven't shipped yet). 

USA - I think John Keil from Watch Gauge has started contacting people on his waiting list. 

USA - Marc at Island Watches should receive them tomorrow. He'll probably make them available for purchase by Thursday, I'd think, if not sooner.

EU - Serious should have them by Thursday, and I'd think available for purchase by Friday. 

UK - Ditto the above for Watch Gecko, though I think they may take another week or two before they start sales on their 2 store exclusive versions.

NZ - Five:45 in New Zealand should have them by Monday, and I'd expect to see them available for purchase on their website by Tuesday or Wednesday.

S.K - IntoWatch (Korea) should have them by early next week, Tuesday, I think. Probably up on their website by Wednesday or Thursday.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Boy, I was lucky with my Tuna then... now if only Doc would offer a Tunaesque Nth.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


TuNTHa

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> DevilRays -
> 
> Have all been shipped (well, mostly - the watches going to the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong haven't shipped yet).
> 
> ...





Red PeeKay said:


> Boy, I was lucky with my Tuna then... now if only Doc would offer a Tunaesque Nth.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


NTH Tuna and rated twice as deep to boot!


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

captainmorbid said:


> TuNTHa
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

sgtlmj said:


> View attachment 16107216


Yeth.

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## PKC (Jun 1, 2013)

Hey, I just got this beauty in the mail today. This dial is special.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PKC said:


> Hey, I just got this beauty in the mail today. This dial is special.
> 
> View attachment 16107295


Noice! Enjoy it and wear it in good health.

Let us know if it gives you any problems.

This message isn't angry, that's just my thumbs typing furiously.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Back in the saddle.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

In the words of the mighty Pat Benatar&#8230;TROPICO!


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Trigger pulled&#8230;


*Order summary*










Devilray Orange - Waitlist × 1
No Date


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Lab4Us said:


> Trigger pulled&#8230;
> 
> 
> *Order summary*
> ...


Me too - the blue one. And a black rubber strap to mix up the look from time to time. Can't wait! Hope it's not too big for my scrawny wrist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Ike2 said:


> Me too - the blue one. And a black rubber strap to mix up the look from time to time. Can't wait! Hope it's not too big for my scrawny wrist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I already have the orange rubber strap&#8230;but who am I kidding? It will be on an orange HD NATO within 15 minutes of being unwrapped ?????.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Lab4Us said:


> I already have the orange rubber strap&#8230;but who am I kidding? It will be on an orange HD NATO within 15 minutes of being unwrapped .


Nice. Looking forward to seeing pics of that. My only NTH to date is my orange Swaardvis, and I like to wear that on a black C&B chevron. But then again orange and black are the colors of my baseball team and college.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> Nice. Looking forward to seeing pics of that. My only NTH to date is my orange Swaardvis, and I like to wear that on a black C&B chevron. But then again orange and black are the colors of my baseball team and college.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Giants fan?


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

If I fits I sits&#8230;










* speedy on an Antilles bracelet


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

ryan850 said:


> Giants fan?


Os. And what a year they are having!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHursday


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday

Sorry, cheated a bit. I let the youngest pic my watch today. The orange and blue L&H wins every time. Hope the crew is well, have not been free as much lately


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

#NTHursday


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm sorry, but this thread has the best, most amazing water resistance argument I've ever seen on this forum, bar none, starting at post 7...









Bühlmann Decompression 01


Another unique watch from crowd manufacturing platform Watch Angels Bühlmann Decompression 01. What they are calling "The mother of all deep dive watches." From the Swiss pioneer of depth and dive security. The watch is currently in the pre-sale phase...




www.watchuseek.com





It has it all - dynamic pressure, math, graphs, pressure testing equipment, pressure cookers, ISO ratings, meters to ATM conversions, the military, decompression...

I want to send both gentleman a certificate of recognition for the pedantry on display.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm sorry, but this thread has the best, most amazing water resistance argument I've ever seen on this forum, bar none, starting at post 7...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Where did you get your technical dive training??" Lol.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I want an abridged printed copy of just the two leads. Beautiful. 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

That thread is forum gold...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> "Where did you get your technical dive training??" Lol.


I know I've been one of the worst and most frequent offenders on this forum, but it is truly amazing to me how often threads get dragged off topic by some deep-in-the-weeds argument over something unbelievably pedantic.

The watch in the thread seems pretty cool. Shame one guy feels compelled to point out the WR rating may (or may not) be misleading / deficient by 1 ATM.

I'm seriously tempted (and want to encourage everyone here) to point out that most if not all pressure tests (especially ISO tests) exceed the depth rating by 25%, so anything over 4 ATM should include the 1 ATM that one guy is up in arms about.

Can only imagine the dude's head exploding as he's banging his keyboard on the desk...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Water Resistance
57.5 ATM = 575m = 1866ft (The Bühlmann depth record)

But, but, but…NTH 2K1? AKA Swiftsure and Thresher? Also, apparently much easier to use! Too much football tonight to read walls of text…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Water Resistance
> 57.5 ATM = 575m = 1866ft (The Bühlmann depth record)
> 
> But, but, but&#8230;NTH 2K1? AKA Swiftsure and Thresher? Also, apparently much easier to use! Too much football tonight to read walls of text&#8230;


I'm not lying or exaggerating...that debate made me go and look at all the depth rating text on all the watches NTH makes, to ease my mind I wouldn't have some Sam Houston wannabe treating me like William Stanbery* over the 1 ATM inaccuracy on our watches' dials.










*In 1832, Congressman William Stanbery alleged that Houston had earlier placed a fraudulent bid for a government contract to supply rations to Cherokee being relocated from East of the Mississippi. After Stanbery refused to answer Houston's letters regarding the accusation, Houston went to DC, found Stanbery on the street, called him a 'damned rascal', and set about beating Stanbery with his cane. When Stanbery pulled a pistol, it misfired, earning him a few more whacks, including some between the legs.

I'm a big fan of Sam Houston's brand of politicking. Y'all don't know how many times I've wanted to use a stick when typed words were of no effect.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I missed NTHursday yesterday as I was travelling home all day. Finally back in my own house after 9 weeks, and able to check out my new watches and the watch box I finally got around to purchasing. Thanks for the buying advice all those weeks (and pages) ago. Here are a couple of pics, with my NTH watches up front and centre. You might say its full already, but I had nothing on my wrist so there is still a gap for that new NTH doc alluded to recently 

















PS the "sweaty waiter" watch that was "such a bargain" never made it out of its box into this one....... awful thing


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Anyone who's considering picking up one of the blue devilrays you won't be disappointed.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

"AuTOmAtiCs ArE FrAgILe"

Pfffffft


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Another day with my NTH "Swifty"!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> You might say its full already, but I had nothing on my wrist so there is still a gap for that new NTH doc alluded to recently


Your post reminded me of the dream I had last night.

I must have a sub-conscious fear of being caught unprepared. I have a semi-recurring dream, in which I'm back in school, it's the end of the semester, and I suddenly realize there's a class I forgot I enrolled in, never attended, yet never dropped, and now I have to go sit for the final exam.

Similarly, last night I dreamed that I had designed and had assembled three different new Subs versions, in very small numbers, but somehow forgot about them, until I found them sitting in my office, requiring me to scramble to get them photographed and up on the website for sale.

I think they were all different shades of green, which is weird. I wonder if that somehow symbolizes something to do with money, or my unresolved envy for water-heater salesmen.

There was a time when I'd frequently dream about my watch business, but that's the first such dream I recall having in years.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Your post reminded me of the dream I had last night.
> 
> I think they were all different shades of green, which is weird. I wonder if that somehow symbolizes something to do with money, or my unresolved envy for water-heater salesmen.


Nah Doc.... dreaming of green clearly indicates a subliminal desire to design and release a Nth bronzo... something a little like these? 
















Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

I missed #NTHursday, so here's my late contribution on my crusty, trusty Phoenix NATO.










It's a blessing and a curse that Chris has the full catalog of inserts available for these. I tried the Catalina on it, now I'm thinking I want to try something else but can't decide.

Up for vote:

1. Kiger
2. Carolina (I don't really need a ton of lume on the insert)
3. Nacken Vintage Black Ver 2 (Titanium)
4. Polar Cuda


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Your post reminded me of the dream I had last night.
> 
> I must have a sub-conscious fear of being caught unprepared. I have a semi-recurring dream, in which I'm back in school, it's the end of the semester, and I suddenly realize there's a class I forgot I enrolled in, never attended, yet never dropped, and now I have to go sit for the final exam.


I have similar concerns, albeit typically not admitted, of being unprepared as an adult. They can be traced back to this very true story

College, I took my time, one of those "longer than 4 years for a degree" types. Granted, I worked, so I was not a bum, but I took my time nonetheless. I enjoyed physical labor, still do.

When I decided it was time to actually finish and get a "start a career", I met with the vice dean of my specific school. We reviewed my course history for 2 hours (I had many extra hours...like 40 of them, potentially enough for a minor in a science, but I really just wanted my bachelor's and some real money). Once all was in order, we were in agreement on what would be required in my final semester. I aced those courses, graduated, got a "real job", relocated, started a career.....and....

Two months into that career I received a call from that same vice dean to apologize, inform me a mistake had been made, and I needed to take One. More. Course. I am not making this up. This is real. It is also the reason every time one of the unlucky students calls me to ask me to "support my Alma mater" I ask how much they want to pay me. It ends in confusion. Every time.

I was blessed to have a boss that was already pleased with my work, so he did not care about that one class. Turned into one of my mentors. Great man IMO. I retained my job, and it took me two more years of fighting to actually complete that one course and get my degree.

And this ends today's episode of "oversharing and other sh*t you didn't need to know"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I have similar concerns, albeit typically not admitted, of being unprepared as an adult. They can be traced back to this very true story
> 
> College, I took my time, one of those "longer than 4 years for a degree" types. Granted, I worked, so I was not a bum, but I took my time nonetheless. I enjoyed physical labor, still do.
> 
> ...


It took me 5 years to get my 4 year degree. I was just a bum when it came to academics (hence the recurring dream of being unprepared for an exam). You're not special.

It took my grandfather 10 years, to get a 5 year degree in engineering, I think, and I also think he was going part-time, while working a full time job and raising a family of 8 kids. That's the legend as far as I know it, anyway.

My other grandfather never got past the 10th grade, but became a self-made and very successful business owner nonetheless.

True story - my final (third) semester at my first of three colleges, I was finally taking a class I enjoyed, within my major. The final grade was to be an average of the mid-term exam grade, the final exam grade, and a term paper.

I aced the term paper, and got a C on the mid-term. Going into the final with a B average, I felt pretty confident that I did well on the exam, but I knew that even if I didn't do as well as I thought, it was all but mathematically impossible for me to not pass the course.

Imagine my surprise, weeks later, when I got my grades, and saw I somehow failed the course. As my parents were still paying my tuition at the time, they were, shall we say, not pleased. They refused to hear my protestations that there must be some mistake.

In fact, there was. It seemed that the professor let a TA compile and calculate all the students' final grades, and this nitwit had somehow misplaced my final exam grade, and gave me a zero, as if I never took it. It took over a month for me to get a hold of someone at the school, figure out what happened, and get the record corrected.

But by that time, my parents had already decided they didn't want to pay for me to stumble my way through another semester at an expensive, out of state university. And I'd already accepted the ignominious shame of enrolling in community college, and living at home with them.

Turns out I did in fact do well on the final, and my actual grade for the course was a solid B.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> It took me 5 years to get my 4 year degree. I was just a bum when it came to academics (hence the recurring dream of being unprepared for an exam). You're not special.
> 
> It took my grandfather 10 years, to get a 5 year degree in engineering, I think, and I also think he was going part-time, while working a full time job and raising a family of 8 kids. That's the legend as far as I know it, anyway.
> 
> ...


I am a delicate flower. You lost me in a pool of tears at "you're not special" ?

Ok, I'm over it 

Our stories are similar. I started at expensive university and went back to CC. I did so because I realized my original major was not appealing and CC was a whole lot less $$$ to finish basics while I reevaluated


----------



## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Your post reminded me of the dream I had last night.
> 
> I must have a sub-conscious fear of being caught unprepared. I have a semi-recurring dream, in which I'm back in school, it's the end of the semester, and I suddenly realize there's a class I forgot I enrolled in, never attended, yet never dropped, and now I have to go sit for the final exam.
> 
> ...


Your subconscious trying to tell you to share the new V2 designs with us maybe? 

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


----------



## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

Received this bad boy yesterday...nearly new...can't find any indication that it's been worn...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I crammed a 4 year college degree into 10 years. Lot of night school and equivalent credits for actual life work, but I got it done. BS in Electical Engineering from Manhattan College.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Nah Doc.... dreaming of green clearly indicates a subliminal desire to design and release a Nth bronzo... something a little like these?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suspect Doc's not interested. But if he released a bronze in the 44mm case size, with a plain no insert bezel, and printed dial, I'd be at the front of the cue.


----------



## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

npl_texas said:


> Received this bad boy yesterday...nearly new...can't find any indication that it's been worn...
> 
> View attachment 16112895


Did you get this from the selection of "Nearly New" watches? I've got it narrowed down to about 10 NTH watches I want to get, and having a tough time making up my mind.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Big_wrist said:


> Did you get this from the selection of "Nearly New" watches? I've got it narrowed down to about 10 NTH watches I want to get, and having a tough time making up my mind.


Simple, buy all of em.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

npl_texas said:


> Received this bad boy yesterday...nearly new...can't find any indication that it's been worn...


Send it back to us, I'll make sure we return it to you with sure signs it has in fact been worn.

Sheesh, the complaints from some people...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Send it back to us, I'll make sure we return it to you with sure signs it has in fact been worn.
> 
> Sheesh, the complaints from some people...


NTH Nearly New Section.

Now Guaranteed to contain real Doc Vail Skin Cheese.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

So excuse me while I vent. Ordered some more HD NATOs from Crown and Buckle for my 2k1s, Tropics, and a Seiko. Was out for delivery today via FedEx and got an email about 1:23 that they’d been delivered at 1:21. Except my wife and I are retired, we we’re sitting in our living room all day with front door open, and NOTHING was delivered. Not to mention the three dogs go off when anyone walks up to the door. Thorough search of front of house with no packages found.

Go to FedEx site to file claim. “If no signature required, we’re not responsible”

Go to Crown and Buckle site. “Once we give product to shipper, customer is fully responsible.”

WTF?

Queried Crown and Buckle anyway and asked that since they didn’t ship signature required, nor did they offer me the option to pay extra to have product shipped signature required, would they make it right. Now awaiting answer…and not holding breath based on their thorough abdication of any responsibility in their shipping text.

4 watch bands @$60 total won’t break me..,just irritating that FedEx drivers can take home anything not marked signature required (or just throw on anyone’s porch without ensuring it’s the correct address) and I (we) can’t do anything about it!

To end on a positive note…package from John Keil on the way, adult signature required. Scheduled delivery Tuesday, 14 Sep 21. That will be one each no date orange Devil Ray…unless FedEx screws the pooch again…

Thanks for listening.


----------



## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Lab4Us said:


> So excuse me while I vent. Ordered some more HD NATOs from Crown and Buckle for my 2k1s, Tropics, and a Seiko. Was out for delivery today via FedEx and got an email about 1:23 that they'd been delivered at 1:21. Except my wife and I are retired, we we're sitting in our living room all day with front door open, and NOTHING was delivered. Not to mention the three dogs go off when anyone walks up to the door. Thorough search of front of house with no packages found.
> 
> Go to FedEx site to file claim. "If no signature required, we're not responsible"
> 
> ...


Dispute that biotch.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> So excuse me while I vent. Ordered some more HD NATOs from Crown and Buckle for my 2k1s, Tropics, and a Seiko. Was out for delivery today via FedEx and got an email about 1:23 that they'd been delivered at 1:21. Except my wife and I are retired, we we're sitting in our living room all day with front door open, and NOTHING was delivered. Not to mention the three dogs go off when anyone walks up to the door. Thorough search of front of house with no packages found.
> 
> Go to FedEx site to file claim. "If no signature required, we're not responsible"
> 
> ...


That's sounds most craptastically shatmatic. Astonishing that C&B had such poor costumer service to answer so unhelpfully. Even more astonishing to hear that don't take responsibility for delivery.
I'd get back to them, politely still, and see if you get a different more helpful operative. Or one who isn't having a bad day or something.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

catsteeth said:


> That's sounds most craptastically shatmatic. Astonishing that C&B had such poor costumer service to answer so unhelpfully. Even more astonishing to hear that don't take responsibility for delivery.
> I'd get back to them, politely still, and see if you get a different more helpful operative. Or one who isn't having a bad day or something.


I did reach out, politely via email, awaiting response. That comment was from their site, under shipping Terms and conditions, which reads, in part:

Any lost, stolen, or damaged merchandise. Once C&B hands the package over to the shipping carrier, the customer assumes full responsibility for the package and contents.


----------



## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> Send it back to us, I'll make sure we return it to you with sure signs it has in fact been worn.
> 
> Sheesh, the complaints from some people...


Haha, I hope you understand that I meant that in a good way lol


----------



## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

Big_wrist said:


> Did you get this from the selection of "Nearly New" watches? I've got it narrowed down to about 10 NTH watches I want to get, and having a tough time making up my mind.


Yes, I did.


----------



## Gazza74 (Jul 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> So excuse me while I vent. Ordered some more HD NATOs from Crown and Buckle for my 2k1s, Tropics, and a Seiko. Was out for delivery today via FedEx and got an email about 1:23 that they'd been delivered at 1:21. Except my wife and I are retired, we we're sitting in our living room all day with front door open, and NOTHING was delivered. Not to mention the three dogs go off when anyone walks up to the door. Thorough search of front of house with no packages found.
> 
> Go to FedEx site to file claim. "If no signature required, we're not responsible"
> 
> ...


FedEx does this all the time, in fact it did it to me only a few weeks ago. I called FedEx customer service and they were going to get in touch with my local hub to find out what happened. The package was delivered the next day, in fact the vendor told me to give it a day or two to see if it would be delivered. I wouldn't panic just yet, but have FedEx customer service chase it with the local hub for you.

I learnt my lesson and the next time I had a package shipped with FedEx I had it sent to a FedEx shop near me and I went and picked it up after it was delivered there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I am a delicate flower. You lost me in a pool of tears at "you're not special"
> 
> Ok, I'm over it
> 
> Our stories are similar. I started at expensive university and went back to CC. I did so because I realized my original major was not appealing and CC was a whole lot less $$$ to finish basics while I reevaluated


You're special to me.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

npl_texas said:


> Haha, I hope you understand that I meant that in a good way lol


Too late. We're in this together now. Committed to an outcome...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> Too late. We're in this together now. Committed to an outcome...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Ok, sending back now. Please ensure there is some wear when you send it back.


----------



## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

sgtlmj said:


> I missed #NTHursday, so here's my late contribution on my crusty, trusty Phoenix NATO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kiger! Just the right amount of detail w/o being too busy. Red triangle is a nice pop of color. Lume is sweet too!


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Lab4Us said:


> So excuse me while I vent. [snip]


I deal w/ FedEx all the time and work in the defense industry. They mis-deliver sensitive items all the time, and we take it very seriously and hound them to find the @#$% things. IF they really want to help, they usually have Lat/Lon of where the package was scanned as delivered. FedEx has gotten markedly worse in the last couple years.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We typically used FedEx for our inventory shipments, but we have them deliver to the local FedEx drop-off, not to Dan's shop.


----------



## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'm sorry, but this thread has the best, most amazing water resistance argument I've ever seen on this forum, bar none, starting at post 7...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welp, that's some time I'll never get back. And now I have a headache.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

That's why I don't order from C&B. I look at the terms and conditions and if there's some policy where they take zero responsibility for ensuring the product I pay for actually gets to me, I don't give them money. These type of outfits are just below those that make you choose to pay for shipping insurance. The insurance is to protect the seller from loss, not the buyer. It's not always easy and I can't say I've never ordered from them as sometimes they have it and I have to have it but I look.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> We typically used FedEx for our inventory shipments, but we have them deliver to the local FedEx drop-off, not to Dan's shop.


They delivered a queen size bed frame in 66 lb box to my apartment building but to the next entryway over from mine. Driver lugged it up to second level. I practically had a heart attack lugging that down the stairs, over to my stairs and up to my unit. (Should have called my teenage son to help but foolish macho pride kicked in.). Thanks FedEx!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> That's why I don't order from C&B. I look at the terms and conditions and if there's some policy where they take zero responsibility for ensuring the product I pay for actually gets to me, I don't give them money. These type of outfits are just below those that make you choose to pay for shipping insurance. The insurance is to protect the seller from loss, not the buyer. It's not always easy and I can't say I've never ordered from them as sometimes they have it and I have to have it but I look.


Disappearance at the point of delivery is a challenge for businesses.

If a business buys shipping insurance through the courier, it can be very expensive. So very often, the insurance a business purchases is for less than the full retail value of the shipment.

And the courier doesn't pay out if the shipment is marked as delivered. The insurance only covers loss in transit, not theft or disappearance for any reason once "delivery is made".

We typically use third-party insurance, not the courier's, because it's less expensive, and covers disappearance after delivery, but it's still not a perfect solution. We need a customer's cooperation, especially when the shipment was marked as delivered.

There's also a waiting period to receive the reimbursement. I'm still waiting for $800 reimbursement from USPS on a package I sent in early July, from our shop, not our warehouse (so we didn't use the 3rd party insurance).

That then leads to questions about what the business should do next. Should we send out a replacement, and risk another mishap, with another loss in profit, more time spent filing a claim, and another waiting period?

How does the business know the recipient isn't pulling some sort of scam, claiming an expensive shipment disappeared after it was actually delivered, and they have it? How much inventory and time does the business want to risk wasting in this scenario?

Customers will often complain about signature delivery. If they're not there to sign for a package, they may have to go get it from the local hub, which can be a real pain. Sometimes those notes left on the door are blown off, literally, but also figuratively. If the package isn't retrieved with a certain amount of time, it may be returned to the sender, with additional shipping cost.

I believe that accessibility and security at the point of delivery is the recipient's responsibility. The business you're ordering from doesn't know if you live in the middle of nowhere, or a busy city street. They don't know if the delivery person can get access to your door, or if your mail gets jammed through a tiny slot in a wall full of mailboxes.

For the delivery person - they don't know what's inside the package, how much it costs, how long it'll be before you pick it up off your doorstep, etc.

I have a PO Box that I use as a business address. I'll also use it as a delivery address whenever I'm having something valuable shipped to me, because we're aware of package theft in our area, even though it's a fairly "crime-free" town.

I signed a form giving the post office the authority for sign for packages on my behalf, even if they're being delivered by DHL, UPS, or FedEx. The box costs me about $100 / year. It's an inexpensive solution to the problem, and I recommend it to others.

Otherwise, I recommend people get one of those package-safe boxes to put by your door.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

While I agree with most of that, what about my situation where I was at home and in my living room with door open at the time FedEx claimed they delivered my package? How should that be my responsibility? My guess is they delivered to same house number on different street in my neighborhood (I’d like to think driver didn’t blatantly rip off my stuff). Why should I be responsible for a driver incapable of reading street names? Even if I had an accessible lockable delivery box, would have made no difference…driver obviously misdelivered. But I should eat the cost of their error? Or the fact business didn’t offer a “choice” of signature delivery? Back in the day before rounds cost .75 each for target, I did lots of mail order buys. Companies offered choice of signature required for $1.00. Being responsible and not wanting cases of ammo left sitting I’d always use that option. Seems an easy enough solution.

I opened case with FedEx today. We’ll see…

BTW, John Keil ships Adult Signature Required…still on track for Tuesday!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> While I agree with most of that, what about my situation where I was at home and in my living room with door open at the time FedEx claimed they delivered my package? How should that be my responsibility? My guess is they delivered to same house number on different street in my neighborhood (I'd like to think driver didn't blatantly rip off my stuff). Why should I be responsible for a driver incapable of reading street names? Even if I had an accessible lockable delivery box, would have made no difference&#8230;driver obviously misdelivered. But I should eat the cost of their error? Or the fact business didn't offer a "choice" of signature delivery? Back in the day before rounds cost .75 each for target, I did lots of mail order buys. Companies offered choice of signature required for $1.00. Being responsible and not wanting cases of ammo left sitting I'd always use that option. Seems an easy enough solution.
> 
> I opened case with FedEx today. We'll see&#8230;
> 
> BTW, John Keil ships Adult Signature Required&#8230;still on track for Tuesday!


Sorry, I wasn't directing my comments at your situation, specifically, only pointing out that it's not as cut-and-dry as it seems, and giving the perspective of the business owner.

Your situation actually isn't that uncommon, if we group it with all shipments marked as "delivered", but the package isn't there. I think sometimes the couriers mark packages as "delivered" some time before they are actually left on your doorstep. Maybe the driver is scanning packages in the truck at the end of your street, or there's some other explanation that more or less makes sense.

Regardless, if the package isn't delivered soon thereafter, then as I said, it's a challenge, as the couriers' typically don't pay out insurance claims when the shipper used the couriers' own insurance.

It puts both the shipper and receiver in the unfortunate situation of being at odds, somewhat. I don't ever want to suggest someone isn't telling the truth, because I know sometimes packages do disappear after delivery, and that sometimes they get marked as "delivered" when they never were.

Unfortunately, very often, there isn't a lot the shipper can do on their end, to make sure the shipment does get delivered. I've had to tell people to contact their local PO or mail carrier to inquire about "delivered" packages.

Sometimes they get upset with me, because they expect us to just "fix it", but we can't. I can't do anything about it. Even if I was willing to spend hours on hold trying to talk to USPS, and I'm not, it wouldn't make any difference. All they'd do is tell me the package was marked delivered, and someone has to make contact with the local PO to inquire about it, see if it's on the truck, etc.

This is one of the benefits of outsourcing our order fulfillment. It comes with third-party shipping insurance, that's not only cheaper, but also comes with more customer-friendly terms, particularly in situations like yours. If I shipped that package with USPS, and used their insurance, there would literally be nothing I could do. But shipped from my warehouse, I at least know we can file a claim.

I'd still ask you to contact the carrier or the local PO or FedEx hub about it, but the insurance gives us some ability to salvage something from a worst-case scenario - the package is never found or delivered.

The good news here is that for all the discussion of lost packages we see online, in my observation, it's extremely rare. In almost 9 years of business, and thousands of shipments sent, I'm certain we've seen fewer than 10 instances where a package was completely lost, and never seen again, and I think about half of those were international shipments, involving a hand-off from the US mail to another courier for final delivery.

More often than not, these delivered-but-not-delivered packages do turn up eventually.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Your situation actually isn't that uncommon, if we group it with all shipments marked as "delivered", but the package isn't there. I think sometimes the couriers mark packages as "delivered" some time before they are actually left on your doorstep. Maybe the driver is scanning packages in the truck at the end of your street, or there's some other explanation that more or less makes sense.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> ...


This has been our experience as well, with somewhere close to 10,000 packages mailed over the past five years. We use USPS Flat Rate almost exclusively due to the heavy nature of our product, and despite all the horror stories you hear, the USPS has actually been great overall for us.

Whenever this specific situation occurs (package scanned as delivered but isn't) I've always told the customer to wait two days to see if it shows up, and to the talk to their local guy, and that has resolved nearly every case. Fewer than five totally lost packages overall.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> While I agree with most of that, what about my situation where I was at home and in my living room with door open at the time FedEx claimed they delivered my package? How should that be my responsibility? My guess is they delivered to same house number on different street in my neighborhood (I'd like to think driver didn't blatantly rip off my stuff). Why should I be responsible for a driver incapable of reading street names?


Regarding the "wrong house" issue, I caved to repeated pressure from Wells Fargo to refinance my second home in Idaho. It'll be easy, they said...
There's another home a street over, same number, but different street. We routinely get each other's mail, so at least I expected some shenanigans.
Title clerk reported that I had a lien on my home. Nope, that's the other guy, and that's HIS house. 
Appraiser called to make sure I'd be home, and then texted me to ask me the door code to my shop so that she could inspect it. Asked where she was, and turns out she was INSIDE my neighbor's house. She had knocked and no one answered, so she went in...
Lucky he wasn't home, or didn't come back while she was there. He might have shot her.
We cancelled the refinance and just paid off the loan. Less hassle.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

It's especially frustrating when the business only offers UPS or FedEx and bills them as premium offerings. I've had one package - ONE single package - in some 20+ years that was shipped by USPS not make it and they came through and everyone was made whole. Can't say the same for the other vaunted services. Two hands (many more actually) would be required to count all the issues I've had with them as both shipper and receiver. UPS is especially underhanded as most of their so-called protections are moot if the customer supplies the packaging. But sure, you can pay them for those protections.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I ship USPS because I live on the edge


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> I ship USPS because I live on the edge


Live on the edge?! 
That's not very mediocre of you.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

For anyone interested, here are some shots of the new DevilRays.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Watch That Sweep said:


> For anyone interested, here are some shots of the new DevilRays.
> 
> View attachment 16116333
> View attachment 16116334
> ...


Wow... that blue looks much better here than in the renders on the website...I really don't need another blue faced diver...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

That blue is excellent. Bravo!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Regarding the "wrong house" issue, I caved to repeated pressure from Wells Fargo to refinance my second home in Idaho. It'll be easy, they said...
> There's another home a street over, same number, but different street. We routinely get each other's mail, so at least I expected some shenanigans.
> Title clerk reported that I had a lien on my home. Nope, that's the other guy, and that's HIS house.
> Appraiser called to make sure I'd be home, and then texted me to ask me the door code to my shop so that she could inspect it. Asked where she was, and turns out she was INSIDE my neighbor's house. She had knocked and no one answered, so she went in...
> ...


All I got out of that is it would be easier to shoot your banker than pay off the loan.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> It's especially frustrating when the business only offers UPS or FedEx and bills them as premium offerings. I've had one package - ONE single package - in some 20+ years that was shipped by USPS not make it and they came through and everyone was made whole. Can't say the same for the other vaunted services. Two hands (many more actually) would be required to count all the issues I've had with them as both shipper and receiver. UPS is especially underhanded as most of their so-called protections are moot if the customer supplies the packaging. But sure, you can pay them for those protections.


I think there are pros and cons for each.

I like that if I have a problem with a USPS shipment, I can get advice from the postmaster at my local PO, even if he usually can't do very much to help. FedEx doesn't really have an equivalent of the local PO, with a postmaster.

On the other hand, getting help from USPS online, or on the phone, is just a nightmare. I can get someone from FedEx on the phone in a few minutes. It can literally be hours on hold sometimes with USPS.

With international shipments, USPS is a lot cheaper, unless you've got really good negotiated rates with the private couriers. But the problem with USPS is that they don't deliver outside the USA, they have to hand off to another courier for final delivery, which often causes problems.

If you have negotiated lower rates with FedEx, UPS, or DHL, there's an advantage in that they have control over the package from pickup to delivery.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Scorpene with me today at work.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Wow... that blue looks much better here than in the renders on the website...I really don't need another blue faced diver...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Thanks!

And don't you?


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Baldrick said:


> That blue is excellent. Bravo!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Thanks very much!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone want to see a dirty picture?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random notes on the two WG edition DR's...

The blue bezel insert is the same blue we use for the Santa Cruz, Modern Blue, Barracuda Blue, and Vintage Blue Subs. Likewise, the dial is the same blue we used for the Odin Blue, and on the current-gen v.2 Modern Blue.

On the white - I had a moment of sheer panic when I saw Watch Gecko's 3D illustrations, and noted it appeared that the frames on the hour indices, and the hour & seconds hands were blacked out. I couldn't remember if that was a part of the final / approved design, or not, nor could I remember for sure if I even noticed it when I had one of the watches in hand.

After reviewing the design drafts and factory proofs, it turns out it was, and they are, and however they may appear, it either is or is not just a trick of the light. Depending on the light and viewing angle, it could look "black", or just look metallic gun-metal gray.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Sunday night with the "Swifty"&#8230;less than 48 hours until the Devil Ray orange lands (IF FedEx cooperates). At least it's adult signature required!


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

re: those new devil rays - can only second, the blue is an absolute stunner. Well done

re: shipping

I recently had an extremely frustrating experience with DHL. Even more so than the regular, everyday frustrating experiences I have with them.

For background, I live in walking distance of 2 post offices (DHL belongs to the german postal service, so they are also DHL hubs), 4 DHL service points (usually small shops that have a side business of handing out deliveries. One of them is less than 20m from my front door - naturally it's the most convenient for me, and the one the delivery guy uses least often) and also a packing station (no idea if these exist outside europe. It's basically a publicly accessible container of mail boxes, open 24/7. You can retrieve items delivered there via the tracking number)

I work from home since march last year. I am at home basically all day, every day. Still most times DHL does not bother to ring but rather deliver any parcel to one of the options nearby. Fine, I guess. Sometimes I get a piece of paper in the mailbox, sometimes I get an email, and sometimes I don't get anything and have to proactively check the tracking number to find out what happened. This was one of those times. I was waiting on a delivery from Sweden (not from CNS  )The tracking app told me that a parcel was waiting for me at the pickup station. I made my way over there on monday morning. The station was just being filled by a team of DHL drivers, so I had to wait around 10 minutes before I could try to retrieve my delivery. When I entered my tracking number, the computer told me there was no delivery there for me. So I asked one of the drivers to confirm I was at the correct station (I was)... I checked the tracking app again to see when the parcel was dropped at the station and if, perhaps, the retention time had passed and if the parcel was already on the way back (it was not). The tracker now told me that the parcel was _just now_ collected by the recipient. I asked the delivery guys if they perhaps have it on their truck.. Alas, no luck. I got on the phone with DHL immediately, and they told me that the parcel has been collected, and there was nothing they could do... I had to explain to three different people multiple times that I was the recipient, and it hadn't, infact, been collected.

So they let me know that if that was the case the parcel would return to the depot I informed them then and there that I would expect the parcel to be re-delivered, which the rep confirmed they would do. And sure enough, according to the tracker, the next day the parcel appeared in the sorting facility just outside Berlin (that's where I live). It sat idle for two days, and I got on the phone again, telling them that I am expecting them to ship the parcel out again ASAP, again, that was confirmed back to me. And yet, the next time I checked it still sat in the same location. Called again, yada yada yada... A week passed without update, and then suddenly the parcel registers in a warehouse the other end of the country. I get on the phone and was told that the parcel is already on the way back to the sender and there is nothing anyone can do... I demanded to speak to a supervisor, who gave me a some sympathetic words, reassured me that customer satisfaction is their one and only priority and then kindly told me to f off since he wouldnt be able to help me.

tl;dr: DHL returned a delivery to the sender without bothering to even try and deliver it..

The only experience that was even worse I ever had was with AnPost, the irish postal service. In the same week they managed to lose without a trace a delivery from Russia (Vostok) and an Amazon return containing a laptop worth about 2 grand.. if it wasn't for Amazons generous terms, I would have been SOL since AnPost basically refused any responsibility for losing the item. 99% sure that an employee swiped the parcel since they made me stick a big label on the outside detailing both value and content of the parcel.

Oh, and since this is allegedly a watch thread... here's a pretty watch:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The only country which has routinely impressed me with their package handling is Russia. For all the jokes about Russians' apathy during and since the Soviet era, they seem to take package shipping very seriously.

Once inside the country, the few packages I've shipped there seemed like they were scanned every 6 feet. It was amazing to see, especially when compared to other so-called "civilized" places, like England, where the packages always seem to fall into a space-time vortex for two weeks once they get through Heathrow.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Dive, Dive, Dive!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Speedy? Pffft
Snoopy? Pffft

The one, the only&#8230;THE NTH SWIFTY!!! p.s. You can have 9-10 (or more) of these for the cost of one of those!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Lab4Us said:


> So excuse me while I vent. Ordered some more HD NATOs from Crown and Buckle for my 2k1s, Tropics, and a Seiko. Was out for delivery today via FedEx and got an email about 1:23 that they'd been delivered at 1:21. Except my wife and I are retired, we we're sitting in our living room all day with front door open, and NOTHING was delivered. Not to mention the three dogs go off when anyone walks up to the door. Thorough search of front of house with no packages found.
> 
> Go to FedEx site to file claim. "If no signature required, we're not responsible"
> 
> ...


So I heard back from Crown and Buckle this morning. As expected, they assume no liability. Did state they'd query FedEx. Funniest thing is they offered me signature required in the future @ $7 per order. This is right off the FedEx website this morning:

"Adult Signature Required. FedEx obtains a signature from any person at the delivery address who is at least 21 years old and who has government-issued photo identification as proof of age. FedEx reattempts delivery if no one is available to sign for the package. The fee for Adult Signature Required is $2.75. This option is available for residential and nonresidential deliveries."

That's a nice $4.25 profit for a business charging $7 for that option. Needless to say, I'll be watch band shopping elsewhere.

In fairness to Crown and Buckle, they just emailed me again stating they didn't understand "my take" on the situation (guess I'm just supposed to eat $60 plus the extra I paid for 2 day shipping and insurance and keep ordering from them). After some more complaining on their end about the state of shipping, stated they'd be providing a full refund. We'll see.

It's a shame really. I liked their Heavy Duty NATOs, but I'm not going to just throw money into a black hole. The attempt to charge me $7 for a $2.75 signature required service certainly cemented my decision in this case.

To end on a positive note, I ordered some bands from Strapsco for my NTH' that should be here in a few days&#8230;so NWBDs coming soon!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It's not my place to reach out to Crown & Buckle and suggest changes to how they do business, or changes to the text on their website, but I found this info on their shipping page interesting...

Rates:










I know you can get shipping insurance with USPS priority. Not sure about economy, but I think it may be possible if you get it added at the post office, rather than creating the label on the USPS.com website, where it doesn't seem possible.

What's more interesting here is that their FedEx 2-day service is cheaper and faster than USPS priority, and includes insurance. They must have negotiated some good rates with FedEx, or it's just a quirk of shipping smaller, lighter-weight items.

Then there's this...

Disclaimer:










If they're creating the shipping label, then they're buying the insurance, and I'd think they'd be responsible for filing the claim in the event the shipment was lost in transit or on delivery. "The customer assumes full responsibility for the package and contents," doesn't seem possible. The customer may not be able to provide all the info needed to file a claim.

As an example...

I literally (not figuratively) just got off the phone with someone at USPS, regarding the one-off DLC Amphion Dark Gilt we assembled and shipped to Rhory, but which he never received (and for which, I haven't yet received the insurance reimbursement, after 7 weeks of waiting). When I filed the claim back in late July, I was required to provide proof of item value, and proof that there was an actual transaction which occurred.

In this case, I learned today that the USPS has (so far) rejected the claim, because Rhory's PayPal uses a biz name, not his personal name, so it didn't match the order record I had. When I pointed out the PayPal email address was the same as that used for the order record, and what we used for the shipping, they then pivoted to say that the screen shot I sent of the transaction in PayPal didn't have _MY_ info anywhere, as if I wasn't the one who received Rhory's payment, so I had to download and send them a monthly statement from PayPal, with my name at the top, showing the transaction underneath.

I think we'll be good now, and I'll get the money out of them, but they haven't made it easy, by any stretch (reminding me why I prefer to use our warehouse's 3rd party shipping insurance).

I suppose a customer could send a screen-shot of the goods purchased from the website, and a screen-shot or PDF of their PayPal or credit card statement, but I'm still not sure if the courier will let the receiver of a shipment initiate an insurance claim, rather than the shipper, when it was the shipper who created the shipment in the courier's system.

My guess / assumption is that the wording on their site is just standard boiler-plate, and that they would in fact handle the insurance claim for a lost shipment. I can't imagine too many customers would accept the alternative.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> The only country which has routinely impressed me with their package handling is Russia. For all the jokes about Russians' apathy during and since the Soviet era, they seem to take package shipping very seriously.
> 
> Once inside the country, the few packages I've shipped there seemed like they were scanned every 6 feet. It was amazing to see, especially when compared to other so-called "civilized" places, like England, where the packages always seem to fall into a space-time vortex for two weeks once they get through Heathrow.


Yeah I've got a package I sent to Australia that was last scanned in Sydney a week ago. :/


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> .* It was amazing to see, especially when compared to other so-called "civilized" places, like England, where the packages always seem to fall into a space-time vortex for two weeks once they get through Heathrow.*


Ain't that the truth.

Postal services are all private companies so are fast and aim for customer satisfaction.
But once it hits Heathrow it goes to Customs. Which suffers from the same chronic underfunding as the rest the UK's infrastructure and big tax payer funded public utilities.
Then when it leaves customs, it's back to private postal companies and arrives the next day.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> It's not my place to reach out to Crown & Buckle and suggest changes to how they do business, or changes to the text on their website, but I found this info on their shipping page interesting...
> 
> Rates:
> 
> ...


Their 2 day FedEx w/insurance was $5.99 total when checking out (listed as shipping and handling on invoice). I think they were running a special price on 2 day FedEx. They did follow up with a third message this morning stating total, including shipping and handling, was refunded and I should see in 2-5 business days. At least they made it right. Just can't see taking another chance with them. I did let them know that if their product ever does show up, I'll get with them on how to return it. I used to think FedEx was more reliable than the others&#8230;guess not.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All this talk about packages lost after being marked "delivered" reminded me of this incident, from back in May...

TL;DR - for all of you outside the USA, who might be tempted to or are already using a freight-forwarding service for your purchases from US-based businesses, think twice, or at the very least, be sure to make the fact that you're using such a service clear when you fill in your shipping information, and be aware of some of the risks...

TRUE STORY (as short as I can make it) -

Guy overseas orders a $50 rubber strap from the website, and has it shipped to his freight-forwarding service. That's where the trouble started...

Many ecommerce businesses hate shipping goods to these freight-forwarding guys, for various reasons. Overseas scammers use them to rip off US businesses, and besides that, they're almost always sketchy, fly-by-night operations.

The freight-forwarding businesses know this, and so they tell customers to avoid using the name of the business in their shipping info. Instead, they give their customer some sort of "unit number" for the delivery address, to make the shipping / delivery address look like it's an apartment or something - "Joe Blow, Unit 36, 123 Main St, Anytown, NY, 12001." It might be a "suite" number, or whatever, but whatever it is, it's intended to trick the ecommerce business into thinking it's a residence, when it definitely isn't.

And I'm not against someone using a drop-box location, like the UPS store, or a PO Box. I use a PO Box. But there's a difference between a PO Box or the UPS store and "Hollywood Bob's Upstairs Freight Forwarders".

So, anyway, the customer emails us to say he got a message the package was delivered, however, it seems the delivery address, according to the tracking on the USPS website, was not the same as the address he gave on his order.

The wording of the email immediately raised red-flags. If you didn't get a package that was marked delivered, you'd just say, "I didn't get it", not "the delivery address wasn't the same as the one I provided."

EDIT - Actually, a re-read of the emails shows he admitted he had it sent to a "shipping company" in his first message, which at least saved us from having to clarify whose address we shipped to, if it wasn't his.

I spent a few minutes trying to find the service he was using, but we couldn't turn up a website for a legit-looking business when we Googled the delivery address, and the street-view images from Google looked super-sketchy. In fact, the street-view images weren't even of the correct building, but the parking lot of another building nearby. I had to drill down into Google Maps to find the exact location, then go to "street view" to get the right image. Not exactly confidence-inspiring stuff here.

We did turn up two other businesses at that same address, both with websites that made the businesses look more or less defunct, and both with weird names ("Dolphin Transport", and - I $hlt you not - "Cat Ninja Store", which was closed until later that week, for some reason - I guess the cats and/or ninjas needed some rest).










Other search results turned up local police news blotter reports about online purchase scammers using that address - Hopatcong Resident Scammed Out Of MacBook: Police

I just did the same search for the address again, and it was easier to find this time, and does now appear to be a semi-legit freight forwarding outfit, but still - the signs on the wall don't even match the name of the business he claimed he was using.










Going back to the email exchange we had at the time - further info he provided on the business he said he'd worked with many times before wasn't any more encouraging. A Google search turned up multiple BBB complaints about goods not being shipped to customers, and phone calls that consistently go right to voice mails.









USADDRESS.com Inc. | Complaints | Better Business Bureau® Profile


View customer complaints of USADDRESS.com Inc., BBB helps resolve disputes with the services or products a business provides.




www.bbb.org





There wasn't a lot we could do. I wasn't about to go on a wild-goose-chase with the local Post Office or wait on hold for hours calling the USPS 800 number. And the business seemed to operate using a language I didn't speak. Even though I'd assume someone there spoke English, this was already a lot of time for me, the owner of this business, to spend chasing down a $50 strap, on behalf of a customer using a freight forwarder that clearly went out of its way to disguise itself as being a residential address.

I asked him if he bothered to confirm with them whether or not the package was actually received, before he contacted us about it. He never gave me a direct answer, so I assume he hadn't.

The thing is - put yourself in the position of the mail carrier, or someone at the post office, sorting the packages, who sees that address, and knows the neighborhood, and something doesn't seem right. Maybe they'd think the address was incorrect, especially if there was a similar and nearby address that actually was residential. Imagine showing up to deliver a parcel to Joe Blow in "unit 36", but you show up and the sign out front says, "Cat Ninja Store".

Imagine being me. It's a $50 strap. I don't get out of bed for $50. I don't have more than 5 minutes to spend trying to figure out what happened in an instance like this, when the customer is using a freight forwarding service that goes out of its way to conceal that fact, by making the delivery address look like it's residential, and the customer hadn't even bothered to contact them about it first.

To this day - I don't know if the guy got his strap. He seemed pretty upset that I wasn't willing to spend my day chasing the strap down, given what I'd already learned. He was adamant that the service was legit, he'd used it many times, never a problem, etc.

But what am I supposed to do with that? I've shipped thousands of packages with the USPS. I can't do anything when they make delivery to the wrong place, or might have. Call the freight forwarding place, and see what they can do about it. At least confirm with them if they even got it or didn't. You hired them, not me.

Can't get them on the phone? Oh well. Not really my problem, then, is it?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Their 2 day FedEx w/insurance was $5.99 total when checking out (listed as shipping and handling on invoice). I think they were running a special price on 2 day FedEx. They did follow up with a third message this morning stating total, including shipping and handling, was refunded and I should see in 2-5 business days. At least they made it right. Just can't see taking another chance with them. I did let them know that if their product ever does show up, I'll get with them on how to return it. I used to think FedEx was more reliable than the others&#8230;guess not.


All's well that ends well.

In my experience and observation, most ecommerce businesses will do the right thing, when the customer isn't at fault in any way.

As far as the couriers go, I think they're all great, until something goes wrong, then they all look terrible. I've yet to find myself thinking any of them deserve my loyalty, but I tend to lean into FedEx somewhat, mostly because their support seems the least $hltty.

But then again...

I've been dealing with a new customs-clearance agent inside FedEx the last six months, who I literally - not figuratively - could murder. I would sleep like a baby that night, too. The guy is the absolute worst - rude and unclear in his communications, and usually asking for obscure info we've never had to provide before.

I mean, look at this message we got about a shipment of watches, which also happened to include some replacement parts...










"Width of the dial"

No question mark, no addressing me by name (my name is on the shipment, and the shipping account). No explanation of why he's asking for this info. When asked, his answer just, "needed for classification."

Why? Why does the dial need to be classified? How does its width matter, for customs clearance? I'm assuming he's asking about the dials not already assembled into watches. Could they not measure? If they can't, then how do they know I'm even giving them the right measurement?

Okay...I just looked this up in the HTS system, and apparently dial width is a factor for determining customs, but still - this isn't the first time we've been sent dials, only the first time we've been asked for this info, and because of it, the shipment is being held up.

Oh, by the way, I think I figured out the true explanation behind the big-watch trend. Apparently the bigger the dials, the cheaper they are to import. I should have told him they were over 50mm...










My vendor is sending me the dials at no charge - I'm literally paying NOTHING for them - because we needed them to replace parts that failed QC. But, they had to put a value down on the customs forms, so they put $1 per dial. So, for each dial, they'll be collecting $0.076. That's 7.6 CENTS, per dial, times 3 dials.

I had to answer an email from this jackwagon at FedEx, so the Feds could collect another twenty-three cents off me.

Twenty. Three. Cents.

That's $0.23.

Somewhere inside FedEx is a federal customs agent probably being paid $50/hour to extract $0.23 out of small businesses like mine.

Your tax dollars at work.

(BEFORE ANYONE ASKS - This is from the HTS "Harmonized Tariff System" website, which provides a product number and dictates the import customs duties for every imaginable product under the Sun. The column headed with 1-General applies to most shipments. "Special" is for goods from specific countries, with some free-import trade agreement. I'm pretty sure column 2 is for "no-go" countries, like North Korea or Iran.)


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> We did turn up two other businesses at that same address, both with websites that made the businesses look more or less defunct, and both with weird names ("Dolphin Transport", and - I $hlt you not - "Cat Ninja Store", which was closed until later that week, for some reason - I guess the cats and/or ninjas needed some rest).
> 
> View attachment 16118885


What are you talking about man?

Of course Ninja Cats is legitimate, where the hell do you think I got these 10th Dan ultra black belts from...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> All's well that ends well.
> 
> In my experience and observation, most ecommerce businesses will do the right thing, when the customer isn't at fault in any way.
> 
> ...


Could all this ridiculous scrutiny be a consequence of the thriving watch forgery business and the grey markets? I'd guess with the amount of dollars involved in those, organized crime is involved and feds at all levels are going to dig into every thing that could build a forged Rolex and other high value high demand watches. In a way, that's the reason I went the micro brand direction&#8230;I don't worry about paying $5 or 10k+ for a few hundred dollar value watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> What are you talking about man?
> 
> Of course Ninja Cats is legitimate, where the hell do you think I got these 10th Dan ultra black belts from...
> View attachment 16119093


Everyone knows that Wu-Tang Cats ain't nothing to f*** with...


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Had my Amphion for a few weeks now. When I got it it was running -19sec/day, so I went after it with my trusty regulating toothpick and used a timegrapher app on my phone. Took 3 tries regulating and then letting it settle until I got this result. Man, I love the 9015!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Could all this ridiculous scrutiny be a consequence of the thriving watch forgery business and the grey markets? I'd guess with the amount of dollars involved in those, organized crime is involved and feds at all levels are going to dig into every thing that could build a forged Rolex and other high value high demand watches. In a way, that's the reason I went the micro brand direction&#8230;I don't worry about paying $5 or 10k+ for a few hundred dollar value watch.


Could it be? Maybe. Do I think that's the explanation? No, not really.

What I'm seeing could just be a case of "FNG", the "effing new guy" inside the customs-clearance ops at FedEx. Prior to this guy apparently being assigned to my account full-time, we dealt with someone different on each import shipment. And typically, the forms my vendors submitted with the shipments were good enough to pass customs without delay. The delays started about a year ago, and then six months ago this wing-nut just started making things worse, with his terrible communication.

That said - I seem to recall hearing others (brand owners and retailers) recently telling me tales of woe involving customs clearance, and not just here in the US. Both the UK and the EU have post-Brexit changes to their import duties, such that even small, once duty-free shipments are no longer exempt from import taxes.

I haven't heard anything about it from my vendors in Hong Kong, but at least one of the vendors I deal with directly, in mainland China, seem to be more, shall we say, "methodical" in how they fill out customs forms recently.

My seat of the pants impression is that there's some sort of cold-trade-war happening. I'm not the only one with that impression. It seems like many governments are looking at imports as a means to fill some new budget gaps, as the world tries to rebuild freshly-broken economies. Thanks, Covid! But more sinister than that is the appearance that export countries are contributing, for potentially more nefarious reasons.

I called Rusty a couple weeks ago, just to kvetch about my most recent DHL bill, for the leather travel cases we use. I think at one point, 8-9 years ago, we were paying something like $1.50 per box for shipping and import duties, when we imported 500-600 at a time. My latest bill worked out to be $6 per box, which is just insane.

Part of the increase is just the mind-boggling increase in shipping costs over the last 18 months. But part of it is customs agents cracking down. Without being too explicit, there are ways to reasonably reduce import costs. But recently, they made it clear that the customs declarations needed to be more accurate, or else Chinese inspectors would seize the goods.

What I find interesting about that is that it's not US officials who are cracking down, in order to raise more revenue. It's the Chinese. They're not even getting the money I'm paying. They're just making sure businesses outside China aren't getting away with paying lower import duties.

Why would they do that? Why would they care? My only plausible explanation is that China wants everyone to be paying higher prices for everything.

Before any trolls decide to wade in, and suggest this is all somehow a good thing - you do realize that when businesses have higher costs, they pass those along to customers, right? When businesses see a doubling or even tripling in shipping and import costs, that's not an increase they can just eat, in order to not raise prices.

The current $550 price on the DevilRays is entirely due to the fact that once I got my shipping & import tax bill on them last year, I realized we underpriced them, by about $40 per unit. With current shipping costs, and if I was passing every cost increase along to customers, they'd be $575 right now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Looks like this dropped yesterday...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

sgtlmj said:


> Had my Amphion for a few weeks now. When I got it it was running -19sec/day, so I went after it with my trusty regulating toothpick and used a timegrapher app on my phone. Took 3 tries regulating and then letting it settle until I got this result. Man, I love the 9015!


That is super! Wish I had the intestinal fortitude to disassemble my watches and play with the movements. None have been close enough to maximum spec to get me there&#8230;though one is almost at +30, which I really don't care for. I keep my automatics on winders so having to reset back 3-4 minutes a week irritates me.

Not to mention 3-4 of my automatics are running negative, which I hate at any number. Think it was those 40 years in USAF (AD, Contractor, GS) where being late wasn't tolerated. I was one of those guys usually 45-60 min early for work, especially the last 5 years doing medical QC and it was the only time I could get any paperwork done, before others showed up wanting to shoot the s***.

The first 17 of those years I had to be minimum 45 min early to get weapon(s) from armory and get ready for Guardmount (Roll call), which started 15 minutes before shift change. Zero excuses for lateness outside of bonafide medical emergency of self or family&#8230;and that wasn't always a given. Strategic Air Command anyone? Anyway, that's why I have zero tolerance for slow running watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"What's up with that NTH thread?"

"What do you mean?"










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Monday lume shot&#8230;a definitive three pointer&#8230;


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## blitzoid (Jan 21, 2016)

docvail said:


> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


This is the one time we might need to call that statement into question.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

blitzoid said:


> This is the one time we might need to call that statement into question.


I'm running out of pithy statements to use as my Tapatalk signature. I hate to recycle them, but I may have to start.

It's the same thing with my Facebook header and profile images. I change them up pretty frequently, depending on my mood or what's sticking in my craw recently.

Apparently it throws some folks off. One guy started a private message with me by asking to confirm he was talking to the right guy, because I change my profile pic so much.

Damned right. Throws off the identity thieves, too. They're probably using a real pic of me. Sure sign of a fugazi.

Today's update:


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm running out of pithy statements to use as my Tapatalk signature. I hate to recycle them, but I may have to start.
> 
> It's the same thing with my Facebook header and profile images. I change them up pretty frequently, depending on my mood or what's sticking in my craw recently.
> 
> ...


I stay away from post signatures now. It tends to reveal too much of my sarcastic, cynical, surreal humoured self. It drives people away. People like warm and cuddly.

Therefore, for your post signature I suggest a fluffy, loveable, old teddy bear with a sweet smile wearing an NTH watch on his paw ?

??


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> I stay away from post signatures now. It tends to reveal too much of my sarcastic, cynical, surreal humoured self. It drives people away. People like warm and cuddly.
> 
> Therefore, for your post signature I suggest a fluffy, loveable, old teddy bear with a sweet smile wearing an NTH watch on his paw ?
> 
> ??


I got you...


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I got you...
> 
> View attachment 16119614


Is that real human body hair!! It looks like the classic of classics - American Werewolf in London.
(Can't beat the cinema scene for deadpan humour)

Anyway, more importantly what is the Lycanthrope wearing on his wrist?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

catsteeth said:


> I stay away from post signatures now. It tends to reveal too much of my sarcastic, cynical, surreal humoured self. It drives people away. People like warm and cuddly.
> 
> Therefore, for your post signature I suggest a fluffy, loveable, old teddy bear with a sweet smile wearing an NTH watch on his paw ?
> 
> ??


Bah. I suggest "STAY THE F*** OFF MY LAWN!" &#8230;and BUY A WATCH YOU CHEAP BASTARD!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> Anyway, more importantly what is the Lycanthrope wearing on his wrist?


It appears to be a Patek, which might go some way to explaining the pairing of the overly hirsute gentleman and the most likely comely young lady.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> It appears to be a Patek, which might go some way to explaining the pairing of the overly hirsute gentleman and the most likely comely young lady.


Ah-OOhhhhh&#8230;. Werewolves of &#8230; Park Ave?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Looks like this dropped yesterday...


So did my account balance thanks to you 😆. I couldn't resist picking one up.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

I may have missed this in the billion or so posts prior , will the Devilray Watch Gecko edition be priced the same as the normal versions?

And do we know how many of each will be available?

Thanks Doc.... not that I'm checking them out or anything 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm not going to get a Devil Ray - not a style I appreciate or need - but I only got there after much soul-searching and willpower.

Otherwise, with the v2, I was not overly impressed with the initial release colorways. But I heard that turquoise and orange would be back. And then the WG-exclusive designs were released. 

And all of a sudden, it's a really good thing I decided to pass, because it would be a wicked tough choice to figure out which to buy. Initially, I was angst-ing about turquoise vs orange, but both the WG versions are straight fire, too. 

Dang. Don't envy those on a budget who are trying to decide...


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Does watchgecko remove vat for US orders?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> I may have missed this in the billion or so posts prior , will the Devilray Watch Gecko edition be priced the same as the normal versions?
> 
> And do we know how many of each will be available?
> 
> ...


No worries, Peter.

Yes, they are priced the same, with the proviso that Watch Gecko's prices include the UK VAT, but also that they ship import taxes and duties paid to the USA, EU, Canada, and Australia.

I'm not 100% certain how that works out for you in Australia. My loose understanding is that you pay 5% import duty on the value of the goods being imported, plus 10% GST on the value of the goods, plus that 5% import duty, which I think would add up to 15.5%, total.

It that's all correct, then ordering from the UK only adds 4.5% to the price for you, I think.

We've assembled 25 pieces of each SKU for this release, so there are 25 pieces of the white, and 25 of the blue.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Does watchgecko remove vat for US orders?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


As far as I'm aware, they do not.

@Watch That Sweep


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Swifty's last day for a while I think. I have it on good authority a certain little devil will be arriving today&#8230;


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Two crown Tuesday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> Two crown Tuesday
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I like it! 👍


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Well, not two crowns, but I think you'll like it. Almost thought they superglued the pins until I finally got them out to move to the HD NATO. &#8230;oh, and I forgot the lume shot when I came in-next time!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

/rant on
…and now for more FedEx shenanigans. Was sitting in my living room, main door open, full storm door closed, unbreakable clear glass from top to bottom. I’m sitting about five or six steps from door across living room. Dogs start going nuts barking at door, to the left where I can’t see. I immediately got up (been waiting on Devil Ray all day) and went to door and outside. Driver was already pulling away (probably less than 15 seconds) but when he saw me come out, he stopped and backed up.

Brought my package to me in front yard. I said “You weren’t going to stop?” He says, while looking at ground, ‘I thought I had a misdelivery down the street.” I then shared my episode from last week with him and he says “Was it ground or home?” I said “No, it was 2 day just like this one, but an envelope with a few watch bands in it.“. He just shrugs, says have a good one and walks back to his truck and leaves.

I didn’t check the time when he handed me the package, but sure enough got a delivery message saying signed for by (a name not mine). Then when I clicked on “Obtain proof of delivery”, then the signature required question mark, it read “Adult recipient unavailable (age and required identification vary by country/territory)”. Right after he put the package in my hand.

If adult signature required, how can a driver just sign for it? Doesn’t that completely defeat paying for “adult signature required”?

Tell you what, given a choice I’ll never use FedEx in the future.

At least I got my Devil Ray (though somewhat soured by the delivery experience)...and really only because I was paying attention.

/rant off


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lab4Us said:


> /rant on
> &#8230;and now for more FedEx shenanigans. Was sitting in my living room, main door open, full storm door closed, unbreakable clear glass from top to bottom. I'm sitting about five or six steps from door across living room. Dogs start going nuts barking at door, to the left where I can't see. I immediately got up (been waiting on Devil Ray all day) and went to door and outside. Driver was already pulling away (probably less than 15 seconds) but when he saw me come out, he stopped and backed up.
> 
> Brought my package to me in front yard. I said "You weren't going to stop?" He says, while looking at ground, 'I thought I had a misdelivery down the street." I then shared my episode from last week with him and he says "Was it ground or home?" I said "No, it was 2 day just like this one, but an envelope with a few watch bands in it.". He just shrugs, says have a good one and walks back to his truck and leaves.
> ...


I have a direct opposite story re: FedEx. I normally are right with you with the delivery people, but apparently I learned that FedEx ground/home/and overnight express are all separate lines. I test out various products for a big name store time to time and this time around, was a big ticket item that came in multiple packages. I thought to myself, sure, I'll just go ahead and have the packages directed to my local Walgreens to pick up so that these won't be laying on my front porch. But NOPE, it can't be done, the sender wants a signature or no package delivery. I was supposed to receive it on a Friday and my wife was to be home while I was away on an office retreat 3 somewhat hours away. I get a notice that the packages will not be delivered on a Friday but next business day due. No reason given. I call Fedex, not one FOX given as well.

Now why is this the opposite of Lab's? Well, fast forward to Monday. I post a letter on my front door to FedEx to read. So when doing so, my Nest Doorbell will notify me of the person delivering and I can plead my case with them. The plan happened as expected. The delivery person did stop and read it, and while he was doing that, I started talking through my phone to him on the doorbell. I asked if he could sign on my behalf and leave it at the door based on my direction. He had to get clearance, which I totally understood because they could get in trouble if they aren't allowed to do that. He got back to me and said no, that they do need a signature. I was getting super frustrated but not at the guy, but at the situation and said if there was any way I can get these delivered today and I told him that I can actually be home within 15 minutes to sign for it if he could wait. He actually responded, and told me that he can do the rest of his local deliveries in the neighborhood and circle back in 15 minutes to meet me to get the signature. I was estatic!

I then hurried home and while pulling into my driveway, I see the FedEx dude sitting at the back of truck lounging. I felt guilty at first and asked if he was waiting there since I spoke with him. He said no, he finished up his local deliveries and just came back. Also he was ahead of schedule. He also said that based on the package info, if I hadn't signed for it, that these would have gone back to the sender. Then I would have been more than irate. But that didn't happened and offered him water or gaterade or something cold to drink for him being out there. At the time TX weather was in the 100's. We spoke a bit and I thanked him endlessly for doing this. It was a beyond his call of duty IMO. So this is why I am friendly with my local FedEx people.

Actually, the DHL guys are pretty awesome too. Then I would say UPS and lastly USPS.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

Lab4Us said:


> /rant on
> &#8230;and now for more FedEx shenanigans. Was sitting in my living room, main door open, full storm door closed, unbreakable clear glass from top to bottom. I'm sitting about five or six steps from door across living room. Dogs start going nuts barking at door, to the left where I can't see. I immediately got up (been waiting on Devil Ray all day) and went to door and outside. Driver was already pulling away (probably less than 15 seconds) but when he saw me come out, he stopped and backed up.
> 
> Brought my package to me in front yard. I said "You weren't going to stop?" He says, while looking at ground, 'I thought I had a misdelivery down the street." I then shared my episode from last week with him and he says "Was it ground or home?" I said "No, it was 2 day just like this one, but an envelope with a few watch bands in it.". He just shrugs, says have a good one and walks back to his truck and leaves.
> ...


Sounds like he would have been wearing your watch tonight instead of you had you not been on top of it.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> I have a direct opposite story re: FedEx. I normally are right with you with the delivery people, but apparently I learned that FedEx ground/home/and overnight express are all separate lines. I test out various products for a big name store time to time and this time around, was a big ticket item that came in multiple packages. I thought to myself, sure, I'll just go ahead and have the packages directed to my local Walgreens to pick up so that these won't be laying on my front porch. But NOPE, it can't be done, the sender wants a signature or no package delivery. I was supposed to receive it on a Friday and my wife was to be home while I was away on an office retreat 3 somewhat hours away. I get a notice that the packages will not be delivered on a Friday but next business day due. No reason given. I call Fedex, not one FOX given as well.
> 
> Now why is this the opposite of Lab's? Well, fast forward to Monday. I post a letter on my front door to FedEx to read. So when doing so, my Nest Doorbell will notify me of the person delivering and I can plead my case with them. The plan happened as expected. The delivery person did stop and read it, and while he was doing that, I started talking through my phone to him on the doorbell. I asked if he could sign on my behalf and leave it at the door based on my direction. He had to get clearance, which I totally understood because they could get in trouble if they aren't allowed to do that. He got back to me and said no, that they do need a signature. I was getting super frustrated but not at the guy, but at the situation and said if there was any way I can get these delivered today and I told him that I can actually be home within 15 minutes to sign for it if he could wait. He actually responded, and told me that he can do the rest of his local deliveries in the neighborhood and circle back in 15 minutes to meet me to get the signature. I was estatic!
> 
> ...


That's how my long time regular UPS driver is. Honks and waves even when we don't have a delivery (our big door almost always open with dogs looking out). We seem to turn over FedEx drivers weekly&#8230;


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

rcorreale said:


> Sounds like he would have been wearing your watch tonight instead of you had you not been on top of it.


Yeah, I'm starting to give less credence to "likely mistakes"&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> /rant on
> &#8230;and now for more FedEx shenanigans. Was sitting in my living room, main door open, full storm door closed, unbreakable clear glass from top to bottom. I'm sitting about five or six steps from door across living room. Dogs start going nuts barking at door, to the left where I can't see. I immediately got up (been waiting on Devil Ray all day) and went to door and outside. Driver was already pulling away (probably less than 15 seconds) but when he saw me come out, he stopped and backed up.
> 
> Brought my package to me in front yard. I said "You weren't going to stop?" He says, while looking at ground, 'I thought I had a misdelivery down the street." I then shared my episode from last week with him and he says "Was it ground or home?" I said "No, it was 2 day just like this one, but an envelope with a few watch bands in it.". He just shrugs, says have a good one and walks back to his truck and leaves.
> ...


This is also why I like selling through retailers.

Credit card fraud? Their problem, not mine.

PayPal fraud? Ditto the above.

Lost shipment? Yep, you guessed it - I don't need to know about it.

I feel ya on FedEx though. Not really thrilled with them today. This shipment of inventory going from PA to NJ (literally an hour away, just across the river), somehow got to take a detour through VA...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ok, I'm all caught up

Shipping is more of pain now than it was 3 years ago

Cat Ninja Store is now recorded in my search history

This Nato was a good choice @kpjimmy



kpjimmy said:


> Two crown Tuesday
> View attachment 16120446
> View attachment 16120447
> 
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Well, not two crowns, but I think you'll like it. Almost thought they superglued the pins until I finally got them out to move to the HD NATO. &#8230;oh, and I forgot the lume shot when I came in-next time!
> 
> View attachment 16121084
> 
> ...


On a brighter note - you got your watch.

Hope you like it. Let us know if it pulls any shenanigans.

Since you have it and the 2K1, I'd be curious to hear how you think they compare, after you've had time to get used to the DR.

My personal take - I think they both wear smaller than their dimensions. But the 2K1's feel bigger to me, even though the 2K1 case is only 0.75mm wider (diameter), and actually 1.5mm thinner.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wow. It's only Tuesday, and it's already been a helluva week...

Quarterly tax payments due tomorrow. Just cut some painful checks to the Feds and State.

My car was in the shop for inspection, oil change, and new brakes yesterday. Still haven't gotten my son's car back yet, but they're now pinky-swearing that they'll have a loaner car for him by Thursday.

Wife absolutely lost her $hlt this morning, when she realized her MacBook didn't have an HDMI port, so she needed to borrow MY work laptop (the one I work on all day) for her big business shin-dig today.

Yeah, not like I'd need to use it at all (read: all day) today...

Her work friend came over earlier, while I was still asleep in bed, to grab something my wife left here, making the dog go absolutely ape-$hlt.

Had to run to the computer store to buy my wife a USB-HDMI adapter, then to the post office to drop off another package and check my PO box for a payment I've been waiting on from another retailer, then to the restaurant where my wife was doing her big meeting, to give her the adapter and grab my laptop so I could do some work.

My insurance - home, auto, and biz - are all up for renewal this week, so my agent has been re-doing all of that since Friday. I must have digitally signed 18 different things, between the insurance forms he needed and the tax forms the accountants needed.

Watchmaker Dan left for a week's vacation Sunday, so I'm without his help. Had to run over there on Friday to make sure I had everything I'd need this week.

Waiting on Keil to send me back some oyster bracelets*, and STILL waiting on that nitwit from FedEx to clear the package with the dials in it. The package is now in Indianapolis, apparently.

*I sent Keil a label for the bracelets. In order to update my accountants, so they can finalize my taxes, I had to update my inventory for them, which reminded me - where are the bracelets? Keil responded to tell me they came back to him from the USPS. Apparently the label was covered in grease.

What? How? Dude, did you drag it under your car? How does that happen? No idea. But he had to re-print the label and re-ship the bracelets to me.

Retailer in Hong Kong finally got me the UPS shipping labels we've been waiting on since about a week before Dan left for vacay, so we can ship him his DevilRays. Because of the value of the shipment, I can't just drop it off at the local UPS store. A driver has to come by to get it, so I've had the whole family on high-alert all day, waiting on him to stop by. This is really Dan's job, but he's gone, so I'm dealing with it.

Meanwhile, I've barely had time to look at the 300+ emails in my inbox.

The last five days for me have been like an extended-cut version of the "last day of freedom" for Henry Hill (Ray Liotta) in "GoodFellas".


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Wow. It's only Tuesday, and it's already been a helluva week...
> 
> Quarterly tax payments due tomorrow. Just cut some painful checks to the Feds and State.
> 
> ...


Entrepreneurial glamor to the fullest


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Entrepreneurial glamor to the fullest


It ain't all fancy parties with fine wine and smelly cheeses.

Just sayin'...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> It ain't all fancy parties with fine wine and smelly cheeses.
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Wait, what?

I've watched Shark Tank. Entrepreneurs all have private jets filled with expensive cans of fish eggs, stinky cheeses, and cases of the finest rotten grape juice.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> I've watched Shark Tank. Entrepreneurs all have private jets filled with expensive cans of fish eggs, stinky cheeses, and cases of the finest rotten grape juice.


Godfrey

Oh....and fatty goose liver spread


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

@docvail how long has your son's car been in the shop?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Devil Ray lume&#8230;from about 5 minutes late day sunlight taking dogs out&#8230;a little blurry, sorry&#8230;


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Wore this all day and looking forward to a Meteora showing up this week.










Still looking for that second Santa Fe that I can gift to my fellow US Navy Submariner brother.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Is there a compendium of Devil Rays that I can peruse? Yes, I am achieving a pinnacle of laziness in asking.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

josiahg52 said:


> Is there a compendium of Devil Rays that I can peruse? Yes, I am achieving a pinnacle of laziness in asking.


www.WatchGauge.com
www.watchgecko.com

Search NTH Devil Ray

I suppose I could have stated LMGTFY&#8230; ?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I just checked the NTH website. True to form, all the info one needs is there.









DevilRay







nthwatches.com





Mmm, turquoise.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> @docvail how long has your son's car been in the shop?


Since mid-May. So...four months.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> At least five months.


Was! Das ist nicht so güt!





__





Urban Dictionary: farfegnugen


The German word for "Driving Pleasure." The German marketing slogan for the Volkswagen.




www.urbandictionary.com





Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Since mid-May. So...four months.


Ouch.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

docvail said:


> Since mid-May. So...four months.


Is the entire car being rebuilt!? 

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Watch Gecko DR's go on sale tomorrow.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The part I'm waiting for so the dealer can lamely attempt to properly repair my 2018 Ram 2500 with 23k miles got delayed for another month. Again. Coming up on a year staring at a CEL. At least it's fully operable as far as I can tell. No outward signs but still, a year. Multiple attempts, the waiting.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> The part I'm waiting for so the dealer can lamely attempt to properly repair my 2018 Ram 2500 with 23k miles got delayed for another month. Again. Coming up on a year staring at a CEL. At least it's fully operable as far as I can tell. No outward signs but still, a year. Multiple attempts, the waiting.


My bro's van has been with the dealer for 1.5 of the last 2 years. He has literally (not figuratively) put 12k miles on a loaner.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Ouch.


Yep. It's been a pain in the balls.



cghorr01 said:


> Is the entire car being rebuilt!?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Nah.

The timing belt tensioner doo-hickey broke, which broke the timing belt, which in turn wreaked havoc with valves or some other engine parts.

The shop is a small mom-and-pop operation. Just two bays / lifts. Run by a husband (mechanic) and his wife (shop manager). They told us it would be an expensive repair, and it would take a few weeks...

So, a lot's happened since then. It's been a bit of a tragic comedy. I can't even be sure I remember all the events in the correct order, but here goes...

They said they'd give us a loaner car, one of the cars that they owned, an Infiniti G35 they bought from a customer who didn't think it was worth fixing. They just needed to get the title transferred, get it registered with the state, get it running again, and get it inspected. It was actually one of the cars we considered buying for my son, before we bought the one they're supposed to be fixing.

But then, they had some big marital spat, he moved out for a couple days, and she wasn't coming into the shop. So that slowed things down for about a week.

Then, his mom, who has Parkinsons, went into the hospital. It's a long story, but his brother was supposed to be taking care of the mom, but instead he just took all her money and left her alone to die, so that was a big problem that started eating up a lot of the mechanic's time for about a month.

She finally gets around to transferring the title and registering the Infiniti, and he can't get it running. It seems like the car sat so long that the battery drained so low that the computer died, and some major component (a chip?) needed to be replaced. They bought two chips, one after another, but neither worked, so the car still isn't running. This is the LOANER, not even my son's car.

Meanwhile, my son's car has just been sitting there. They finally got around to tearing into the engine to see what parts it needed, and ordered those parts, but it took forever to get them.

They've had the parts for 2-3 weeks. They keep saying they'll have the car fixed soon, but every week, it's something else slowing things down. One of their other customers has had a newer BMW 6 series in one of their bays for at least 3 weeks. They couldn't fix it, but he refuses to let them send it to the dealership.

Now they're saying they'll give us a different loaner car, which we should have by the end of the week. She's supposed to have the registration updated tomorrow, and swears the car is running, and doesn't need any work done on it.

I know what you're thinking - they're stringing us along. We should have the car towed somewhere else to be fixed.

The thing is, I know from my friend the service manager at a local dealership that it has been crazy-hard to get some factory parts lately. If we have the car towed somewhere else, we're back to square one. We're already four months into this. I just want the damned car fixed.

I had a line on another used car I wanted to buy, from another guy I know, but he decided to keep it.

It's been really frustrating. I waited until the last minute to have my car in for inspection, oil change and brake job, because, A) it's hard enough for us to just have 2 cars for 3 drivers in the house, and B) I wasn't convinced they could get it in and out in one day. But, they did, so we were only down to 1 car for 1 day, yesterday.

Ordinarily, I'd be more skeptical, and not nearly as trusting of what they've been telling us, but we've been taking our cars there for over a year. It's a husband and wife team with kids, nice people, not rich people, who live locally, Coptic Christians who fled persecution in the Middle East. The other guy I was going to buy the other car from has been taking his cars there for years. I don't think they're BS'ing me. This feels more like small-biz blues than anything else.

One of my other friends is a business consultant to auto repair shops. He once told me that the typical neighborhood 2-bay garage with a single owner-operator barely breaks even as a business. I totally see it now. If I'd taken the car to the local VW dealership, we'd have had it back months ago, maybe, but it probably would have cost us double whatever this couple is going to charge us.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

In the defence of your mechanic, there are some crazy things rippling through the automotive supply chains right now. I was talking to one of our fleet mechanics last week and he shared the struggle that he is facing right now in acquiring some pretty simple parts. He told me that vented fuel caps for generic tractor trailer fuel tanks are on an EIGHT week back order for all of North America! That’s crazy! 

I don’t know if VW’s engine is an interference or non interference type, but if it is an interference type and the timing belt snapped, there will be some absolutely insane wait times for some very integral parts. My condolences to Doctor Vail Junior.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

You fancy guys with your modern cars. The ‘94 4Runner gets a random CEL all the time. I just do what IT Managers do: I reboot it and the problem goes away!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> You fancy guys with your modern cars. The '94 4Runner gets a random CEL all the time. I just do what IT Managers do: I reboot it and the problem goes away!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


03 Suburban Z71 here, same deal. Oil pressure gage went crazy on a trip one day.

Pull over, check oil level, disconnect it, continue

It sacrifices some fuel mileage, but it is cheap to repair and maintain


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> You fancy guys with your modern cars. The '94 4Runner gets a random CEL all the time. I just do what IT Managers do: I reboot it and the problem goes away!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


True Story - went out for drinks with my best friend, Sean, the service manager at the local Chevy Dealership, on Friday. We were in his beat-up, old Chevy pickup, with 224k on the odometer.

CEL was on.

ME: "You know your check engine light is on?"

HIM: "It's always on."

ME: "You know...you got that big promotion recently. You're making good bread... You think about getting a new truck?"

HIM: "What?!?!? Why?!?!? There's nothing wrong with this one. My daughter would never forgive me. She loves this truck."

ME: "She'll get over it. You can afford to splurge a little."

HIM: "I think I've washed it like....five times in twelve years."

He told me he'd have fixed my son's car for me, had he known it would be in the shop four months. But how can I ask? He bought a classic GTO as a project car, to fix up with his son, who's had his license for a year. It's been sitting under a car cover the last 2 years.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> 03 Suburban Z71 here, same deal. Oil pressure gage went crazy on a trip one day.
> 
> Pull over, check oil level, disconnect it, continue
> 
> It sacrifices some fuel mileage, but it is cheap to repair and maintain


On my way to the computer store today, I made the mistake of scrolling through all the available info on the digital display to see what kind of gas mileage I've been getting lately from my "efficient" turbo-charged four cylinder GTI.

17 mpg. On 93 octane.

I think I might drive too fast.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The CEL on my old Passat came on like, five years ago, and never went off. I gave up asking the mechanic to reset it. 

When we gave the car to my son, I pointed out that the light was always on, but told him if it started blinking, pull over, stop, and call me.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> On my way to the computer store today, I made the mistake of scrolling through all the available info on the digital display to see what kind of gas mileage I've been getting lately from my "efficient" turbo-charged four cylinder GTI.
> 
> 17 mpg. On 93 octane.
> 
> I think I might drive too fast.


Did not know that was possible.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of fancy parties with fancy people, this just popped up in my FB feed...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Speaking of fancy parties with fancy people, this just popped up in my FB feed...
> 
> View attachment 16121695


Oooooh my!

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Mega cool.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Speaking of fancy parties with fancy people, this just popped up in my FB feed...
> 
> View attachment 16121695


Why yes......yes I am...

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> The CEL on my old Passat came on like, five years ago, and never went off. I gave up asking the mechanic to reset it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apparently NTH is the first brand to do a collab with Watch Gecko. Even I didn't know...









Introducing The WatchGecko Exclusive NTH DevilRays


We’re absolutely thrilled to announce our first collaboration with watch brand NTH. In what we hope will be the first of many such ventures, WatchGecko has partnered with NTH to bring you not one, but two exclusive DevilRays. With an initial run of just 25 units of each colour, this pair of...




www.watchgecko.com


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> No worries, Peter.
> 
> Yes, they are priced the same, with the proviso that Watch Gecko's prices include the UK VAT, but also that they ship import taxes and duties paid to the USA, EU, Canada, and Australia.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc. Our GST is around 15% on nearly all goods. It used to be anything bought internationally and shipped under $1000 was exempt. However after lobbying by some larger Oz retailers technically everything you buy and have shipped you pay the GST. Tough to enforce and sites like ebay etc now add that to the price even if not the Oz site. They just run off your ISP and shipping address. They then send the taxed amount to our government.

I've yet to pay GST on anything sent to me, which is one of the attractions of buying from the UK etc where I am VAT free because I'm not in the country.

That being said I know there are Oz members on here who have been stung by Oz customs on some purchases... it seems to be a bit of a lottery.

I shall await the final release buy watch gecko and see how my finances are faring. Thanks again Doc. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

WIRW RIGHT NOW!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Update on Crown & Buckle and missing package…

They have followed through on promise and refund has posted. Still no package, but they made it right and I felt it only fair to let folks know that.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lab4Us said:


> WIRW RIGHT NOW!
> 
> View attachment 16122242


Me too!









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Apparently NTH is the first brand to do a collab with Watch Gecko. Even I didn't know...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep! Also snagged the white

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

kpjimmy said:


> Yep! Also snagged the white
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I think that's the best looking DevilRay yet. The black polished hands/markers are 🔥🔥🔥.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Here are even more images of the WG DevilRays for people to take a look at:


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Showed up a day early. Thank you USPS!










A little smaller than most watches of mine but it's looks good on my 7.5+" wrist.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> Showed up a day early. Thank you USPS!
> 
> View attachment 16122483
> 
> ...


I think it's a perfect fit. I might be a little biased.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Just finished up the Devil Ray's inaugural 20 mile ride&#8230;


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Lab4Us said:


> Just finished up the Devil Ray's inaugural 20 mile ride&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 16122589


20mi ride? On an Electra 8-Ball Cruiser?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> 20mi ride? On an Electra 8-Ball Cruiser?
> 
> View attachment 16122646


Well, it's a bit modified. 30mm setback seatpost and Ergon SC Core Prime "back saver" saddle. My Trek Dual Sport 3 in shop getting tires replaced. Oddly enough, I find the Straight 8 Cruiser more comfortable to ride. BUT, I have a new stem and handlebars sitting here for when I get the DS3 back, so hope to remedy that!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

rpm1974 said:


> I think it's a perfect fit. I might be a little biased.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe, but it is a good fit and a very nice watch. Dial is perfect. Great aesthetic. Glad I was able to get one despite my procrastination.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Lab4Us said:


> Well, it's a bit modified. 30mm setback seatpost and Ergon SC Core Prime "back saver" saddle. My Trek Dual Sport 3 in shop getting tires replaced. Oddly enough, I find the Straight 8 Cruiser more comfortable to ride. BUT, I have a new stem and handlebars sitting here for when I get the DS3 back, so hope to remedy that!
> 
> View attachment 16122673


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Yep. It's been a pain in the balls.
> 
> Nah.
> 
> ...


I'm a little late to this party, but years ago, like 14ish, I had a VW Passat. Every option but the AWD. It was fun as hell. And I dealt with the _exact _issue you and your son are. Driving back to college in Tulsa from Texas one night the car just craps out. Boom, done. Stranded 45min outside Tulsa.

A couple days later I get it towed up to a local VW specialist in the area, he asks me to turn it over real quick for him. So I do, and before I can even get out and close the door he goes "threw your timing belt. Hate to say it, but it ain't gonna be cheap". I go on to learn all about (what I consider)the moronically designed interference motors. Throw the timing belt, that piston shoots on up and smacks the sh*t out the the valves. When all was said and done, I drove off with pretty much a whole new top end, and $4k lighter in my broke college student wallet. I did get a cool key chain out of it. One of my old valves, in the rough shape of a "Z". About six months later, catalytic converter replacement. Another $1200.

I'm glad that I crashed that lemon. The payout put the down payment on my Silverado, which I still drive today. Getting close to 200k miles, and it has never, not once*, been into the shop for anything other brakes, tires or oil. Hell, the AC is still ice cold in the Texas summer.

*knock on wood


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Lab4Us said:


> Well, it's a bit modified. 30mm setback seatpost and Ergon SC Core Prime "back saver" saddle. My Trek Dual Sport 3 in shop getting tires replaced. Oddly enough, I find the Straight 8 Cruiser more comfortable to ride. BUT, I have a new stem and handlebars sitting here for when I get the DS3 back, so hope to remedy that!
> 
> View attachment 16122673


Taking this further off topic&#8230;

What app you using for tracking cycling? You using any device other than the phone? 0:00 stopped time?! Jealous, my rides feel like 50% traffic lights.

I use Strava + phone, but it doesn't track stopped time, and is generally just not a great app.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I'm a little late to this party, but years ago, like 14ish, I had a VW Passat. Every option but the AWD. It was fun as hell. And I dealt with the _exact _issue you and your son are. Driving back to college in Tulsa from Texas one night the car just craps out. Boom, done. Stranded 45min outside Tulsa.
> 
> A couple days later I get it towed up to a local VW specialist in the area, he asks me to turn it over real quick for him. So I do, and before I can even get out and close the door he goes "threw your timing belt. Hate to say it, but it ain't gonna be cheap". I go on to learn all about (what I consider)the moronically designed interference motors. Throw the timing belt, that piston shoots on up and smacks the sh*t out the the valves. When all was said and done, I drove off with pretty much a whole new top end, and $4k lighter in my broke college student wallet. I did get a cool key chain out of it. One of my old valves, in the rough shape of a "Z". About six months later, catalytic converter replacement. Another $1200.
> 
> ...


What year Silverado you have? I had a 2004 Silverado 2500HD with the 6litre gas engine and 4.3 rearend rated for 10,000 pounds on single rear tires with 16ply.

The problem for Chevy and Toyota and other car companies who used the drive by wire computer system from 2001-2008 was the dreaded "reduced engine power" syndrome.

2008 they changed something in the system to try to fix it, but it still surfaced from time to time. In 2012 they scrapped it and went with a totally different throttle body/ computer setup as I recall.

So id like to think they fixed that nightmare. Nothing sucks your nuts up into your throat than running down the NJ Turnpike doing 80 in the truck lanes going for a pass on the left with a truck riding your ass then with no warning have the CEL come on with "reduced engine power" limp mode become engaged. You hit the flashers and steer immediately for the shoulder yelling profanities all the way.

When this started happening I researched the crap out of it and was surprised at how big of a dark hidden secret this was. Chevy had no idea how to fix it. They said it was ground connections, a bad connector harness at the throttle body, a bad throttle body step motor, bad this bad that. Then the replacements were bad, and on and on. After replacing nearly everything that could be replaced I finally got rid of the truck last year after 16 years and only 92,000 miles on it.

Im a Chevy guy but that soured me on Chevy. Wont own a Ford, and Dodge wont build decent transmissions. Doesn't leave many options.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

@Peteagus - I just started using cyclemeter ‎Cyclemeter Cycling Tracker a couple of months ago. Used Apple Watch for several years, then nothing for a while, other than a tucked away phone for music (and emergencies). I got the cyclemeter suggestion from one of those "best xxxx of 2021" articles. There is a one week free trial and then a $9.99 per YEAR fee, which was a big seller for me. Tons of stuff in app I'll probably never use, but who knows.

Back on topic:


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Rhorya said:


> What year Silverado you have? I had a 2004 Silverado 2500HD with the 6litre gas engine and 4.3 rearend rated for 10,000 pounds on single rear tires with 16ply.
> 
> The problem for Chevy and Toyota and other car companies who used the drive by wire computer system from 2001-2008 was the dreaded "reduced engine power" syndrome.
> 
> ...


'08 Silverado 1500 with the 4.8L V8. I had one issue with it long, long ago. Slapped the OBD2 on it, replaced a $15 little plastic part and went on my way. It's been so long I cant even remember what the issue was, tbh.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> What year Silverado you have? I had a 2004 Silverado 2500HD with the 6litre gas engine and 4.3 rearend rated for 10,000 pounds on single rear tires with 16ply.
> 
> The problem for Chevy and Toyota and other car companies who used the drive by wire computer system from 2001-2008 was the dreaded "reduced engine power" syndrome.
> 
> ...


I miss "CARS".

You know - engine, transmission, battery, steering linkage, four wheels, a radio with 6 pre-sets for AM/FM and a tape-deck, no computer anything.

In 1992, after I fell asleep behind the wheel and wrecked my early-'80's Datsun 200sx, my Dad bought me a sort-of-blue-but-mostly-primer-gray '76 Chevy Nova with a 305ci V8, automatic 4-speed, with vinyl interior, a half-rotten dashboard, and no sound insulation.

It was an in-progress "project car" that my Dad's mechanic had been working on for some time, and he only wanted $500 for it. It's the car Schwarzenegger drove into the police station in "Terminator". It was a tank. When my Jewish uncle saw it, he said (and I quote), "I think Hltl3r invaded Poland in one of these..."

It was terrible in the rain, worse in the snow, deafening on the highway, nothing to look at inside or out, had zero fuel economy, and the engine growl would scare small children as it passed, but it was one of the best cars I've ever owned.

It never broke down, had stump-pulling torque, and was an absolute hoot to drive. I drove the hell out of it for a year or two before I foolishly sold it for exactly what my Dad paid for it.

After this whole discussion about all the problems with newer cars the last couple days, I really miss older cars with simpler mechanics.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I miss "CARS".
> 
> You know - engine, transmission, battery, steering linkage, four wheels, a radio with 6 pre-sets for AM/FM and a tape-deck, no computer anything.
> 
> ...


Funny story. One day long ago my now ex calls me and says "it's too hard for me to turn my steering wheel all of a sudden". She's parked in a church parking lot, I tell her I'm on my way.

I show up thinking what everyone else would, power steering pump crapped out, little or no fluid, something along those lines. Imagine my surprise when I popped the hood looking for the reservoir and it doesnt exist.

Chevy had used(is using?) an electric power steering motor in some of their vehicles. Located in the cab, requiring me to get under and into her steering column. That was news to me, man.

I'm a big dude, her Chevy Cobalt is a little car. Horrible experience.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

This one always seems to snag some wrist time.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

docvail said:


> I miss "CARS".
> 
> You know - engine, transmission, battery, steering linkage, four wheels, a radio with 6 pre-sets for AM/FM and a *tape-deck*, no computer anything.
> After this whole discussion about all the problems with newer cars the last couple days, *I really miss older cars with simpler mechanics.*


So do I

I have deeply Luddite tendencies. I look around at all the "just in time" food and _everything_ delivery systems. Or heating, freshwater, fuel, electricity, etc. It's all controlled by super complicated computers.

It'd only take a modern Al Qaeda to devise a particularly sticky virus and we're back in the stone age.
There's no turning the clock back fifty years to pre computers, and just doing everything by paper accounting and telephones.
Because none of that exists anymore. There is no non computerised communication/telephone system, fuel delivery or anything.

We've put all our eggs into one fragile basket. We'd be back in the stone age within 1 month, it'd be Megadeath, literally.

All that from tape decks, and simpler mechanical only cars. I told you I was a luddite, and deeply cynical obviously...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

For my luddite needs, I have a 1988 Honda "Hawk" ("Bros" in other markets) NT650 GT. Carbs, few electronics. Fairly basic vehicle and is the one I am not afraid to work on. The BMW bike and both cars go to shops for service. However there are those who would criticize my bike for 1) CDI instead of points ignition, and 2) liquid cooling instead of air...


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Check out Bring a Trailer. Lots of CARS... time capsules sometimes... last week I saw an 82 Honda Civic with like 1200 miles. Lots of fancypants vehicles too. But warning... you can easily become obsessed.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#NTHursday &#8230; sorta&#8230;


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTH Thursday&#8230;chilly ride this morning!


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Chris, saw this article about supply chain crises and thought of you.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...s-shortages-and-delayed-shipping-through-2023


> Two years ago, a 40-foot container cost less than $2,000 to transport goods from Asia to the U.S. Today the service fetches as much as $25,000 if an importer pays a premium for on-time delivery, which is a luxury.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

uvalaw2005 said:


> I think that's the best looking DevilRay yet. The black polished hands/markers are .


Did you take those pictures?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

kpjimmy said:


> Did you take those pictures?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Ha, no. But flattered that you could think so. WatchGecko has one of the best product photographers around.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Chris, saw this article about supply chain crises and thought of you.
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...s-shortages-and-delayed-shipping-through-2023


Yeah, this is my life, too... I work with freight forwarding services, instead of dealing directly with shipping companies, and this is the email we received today:

Hi Mike,​​I'm afraid we are starting to see another spike in rates to the USA for ocean freight, there are public holidays in China and Hong Kong over the next few weeks which have meant that the shipping lines have announced 3 weeks of 'blank sailings' and the next available departures will now be in early October. This will of course create a huge back log of stock, further vessel availability issues and inevitably an increase in container prices.​​I have however been offered a container which we could potentially use for your below orders, but the service is premium so I wanted to check the rate with you before we proceed with this.​​[Proprietary stuff, including pricing at 500% of what it was even 6 mos ago, when we were budgeting shipping...]​​Please let me know if you would like to proceed, or if you prefer to hold until later in October and see if the rates come down at all?​
And I mean, what are we supposed to do? They got us over a barrel - we need product to sell, especially considering the upcoming holidays - and no indication that pricing will go down or schedules will be any better.

So... Chinese Holidays in the middle of all the shenanigans outlined in that article, combined with Western Christmas shipping season, extending into next year's Chinese New Year and USA Superbowl... Really, I'm not forecasting anything getting better, anytime soon. Maybe by 2023? But don't hold your breaths...

The above message is regarding 3 jobs a colleague is working on, and one for a company we distribute. I currently have 7 jobs in process, including 4 which just docked over the past couple days, in either Baltimore or NYC. I thank my lucky stars that most of our production is USA-domestic, with much being digital production (trade books) right out of our warehouse. Also lucky that we are generally dealing with consolidated shipping - multiple products in one container with other people's stuff - rather than trying to source shipping for whole or multiple containers.

So when you see bare shelves and pricing on the rise, it's far less about politics, and much more about JIT manufacturing/low inventory capitalism...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> So when you see bare shelves and pricing on the rise, it's far less about politics, and much more about JIT manufacturing/low inventory capitalism...


Bingo.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

NTH watch question. Should the 22mm Viton Strap fit on the new Devil Rays? I ask because I just spent the better part of 30 minutes trying to fit the orange Viton to the orange Devil Ray. I could get one side to stay put, get the pin inside the other lug, but no amount of manipulation would get that opposite side pin to hit the lug hole…almost like I couldn’t push the rubber hard enough against the case. Same happened on both sides of case and regardless of which lug I started with.

I just want to verify it’s supposed to fit before going at it again.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I miss "CARS".
> 
> You know - engine, transmission, battery, steering linkage, four wheels, a radio with 6 pre-sets for AM/FM and a tape-deck, no computer anything.
> 
> ...


I suddenly want to go buy something with a carburetor


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Chris, saw this article about supply chain crises and thought of you.
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...s-shortages-and-delayed-shipping-through-2023





mconlonx said:


> Yeah, this is my life, too... I work with freight forwarding services, instead of dealing directly with shipping companies, and this is the email we received today:
> 
> Hi Mike,​​I'm afraid we are starting to see another spike in rates to the USA for ocean freight, there are public holidays in China and Hong Kong over the next few weeks which have meant that the shipping lines have announced 3 weeks of 'blank sailings' and the next available departures will now be in early October. This will of course create a huge back log of stock, further vessel availability issues and inevitably an increase in container prices.​​I have however been offered a container which we could potentially use for your below orders, but the service is premium so I wanted to check the rate with you before we proceed with this.​​[Proprietary stuff, including pricing at 500% of what it was even 6 mos ago, when we were budgeting shipping...]​​Please let me know if you would like to proceed, or if you prefer to hold until later in October and see if the rates come down at all?​
> And I mean, what are we supposed to do? They got us over a barrel - we need product to sell, especially considering the upcoming holidays - and no indication that pricing will go down or schedules will be any better.
> ...


Random thinks in no particular order...

When oil prices go up, people switch to natural gas, which makes the price of gas go up. I've been reading and hearing similar things about people switching from sea freight (which I don't use) to air freight (which I do).

Air freight is and always has been more expensive, but obviously a lot faster and easier to arrange for a small business like mine. For smaller shipments like mine, the cost isn't (or at least, it wasn't) so high that it made sense to consider switching to sea freight.

But now, a lot of companies are switching to air freight, despite the insanely higher costs recently, simply because they absolutely must have their goods received in a timely way, more timely than they can rely upon sea shipping companies to deliver.

That's part of the reason air freight costs have been rising so dramatically - the switch from sea freight. But I think I also read or heard about fewer flights, because fewer crew, or whatever.

...

That article, and most like it, tend to focus on the logistics involved in getting finished goods from one point to another. But more troubling is a similar article I read not long ago, which pointed out that the log-jam in international shipping is creating lots of delays in getting raw materials.

You can't get plumbing fixtures from your factory in China if the factory can't get the raw materials they need from wherever.

The article predicted we'd see MASSIVE product shortages and price inflation, by the end of this year, just when the holiday shopping season kicks into high gear.
...

Over three years ago now, I predicted a sea-change (no pun intended) in the watch industry would take place in 2020, bringing about higher costs, and higher prices. It had nothing to do with Covid.









Event Horizon 2020 - the year everything changes?


I had to look up the meaning of "event horizon". Apparently it specifically refers to the theoretical boundary around a black hole, which acts as a barrier to light, but generally has come to mean any "point of no return". Personally, I don't like that definition. "Horizon" typically refers...




www.watchuseek.com





My reasoning was pretty simple - I foresaw Swatch Group cutting off supply of ETA movements to third parties in 2020, when the WEKA/COMCO agreement expired, and possibly worse, cutting off the likes of Selitta from access to ebauches and nivarox hair springs. I figured that would cause a big shift towards Japanese or Chinese movements, and we'd see their prices and lead-times rise, the same way they did in 2015.

The Japanese have an aging and shrinking workforce, so they can't just "make more". It's not that easy for them to increase production capacity when there's an increase in demand. I figured supply would remain pretty level, and might even shrink, but it definitely wouldn't increase dramatically.

Meanwhile, during my trip to China, earlier that year (2018), my vendor explained the rising wages and cost of living in the industrialized parts of China would inevitably lead to higher production costs for businesses like mine.

I wasn't really thinking about what Chinese movements would cost, just thinking about all the other parts and assembly. But logically, if whatever Swatch is doing leads to people seeking out alternative movements (like the Chinese-made ETA clones now becoming more commonplace), and the cost of Chinese labor is going up, we shouldn't be surprised if Chinese movements aren't as cheap as they were four or five years ago.

I figured 2020 would be the year the fit hit the shan, and everyone - brands and consumers alike - would simply have to adapt to higher watch prices. I was just waiting to see all brands gradually acknowledging reality, by raising their prices, starting sometime in 2020.

That didn't really happen. Not exactly.

I'm sure ETA movements are harder to come by, and they're more expensive, as are Selittas and Miyotas and Seikos. I think we probably are dealing with higher labor costs, at least somewhat.

I know we're definitely seeing longer lead times, though I'm not exactly sure why that is. Perhaps it's logistics - factories need more time to get raw materials due to longer shipping times, and / or they have smaller workforces due to Covid, maybe.

_Case in point - I'm looking at an email exchange between Rusty and our vendor, about the new Atticus models (Daedalus and Pharos). The major parts that take longer to produce (cases and bracelets) are already made. Two years ago, getting new dials made, and watches assembled, when you already have the cases and bracelets on the shelf, might take 60 days. Now, they're saying 75-80, and to expect delays on top of that. So, basically, we're talking 90 days, or 50% longer than it used to take._​
But the "silver lining" (if you can call it that) with Covid seems to be the fall-off in demand from a weaker economy. It's hard to raise prices when sales are slower, due to weaker demand. If your financial situation hasn't been hurt by Covid, it's been a great time to buy watches.

I'm not gonna lie - I see it, I feel it, and I think a lot about it. My costs have gone up, and I haven't raised prices much, if at all, for the simple facts that A) I'm not seeing a lot of my competitors raising prices yet, and B) I haven't felt like I _have to_ raise prices because we can't keep up with demand.

For the moment, it seems like our prices are "correct", at least judging by inventory levels and turnover. They're definitely not "too low", using those metrics. But the truth is I'm working harder now, a lot harder, than I was two years ago, but I have less to show for my efforts. I'm back to being under-paid for what I do, and it sucks.

I don't think I'm alone. I think most small businesses are in the same boat. I've been paying attention to the signs - literal and figurative. I see a lot more empty commercial spaces, and even when a business is there, they seem to be short-staffed, or reducing the hours they're open, and incrementally raising prices, but from what I hear, not really enough.

There's a sandwich chain that recently started here, "Nick Filet". I met the CFO and co-founder when he was filling in behind the counter one day, a few months back. He was telling me that they couldn't get any lobster to make lobster rolls, at any price, the week before, and his steak prices recently went up 40%. I looked at the menu, and noticed sandwich prices only went up 20% from my previous visit.

40% wholesale cost increase. 20% retail price increase. That's all he thought they could do, without it hurting sales.

I felt his pain. I recently re-ordered UV torches. My total costs went up 70% from two years ago. I only raised prices on them 40%, from $5 to $7. I'm just eating the other 30%.

It's in everything - the little plastic cards and those silicone "smart wallets" we include with every watch cost me more now, to buy and ship, than they did 2 years ago. They're a tiny component in my total cost of the product, but it all adds up.

My shipping costs on the latest shipment of leather travel cases were 4x what I paid two years ago. The boxes themselves only went up by about 20% in that time, but together, I'm looking at a major cost increase. That last shipment of boxes basically cost me double what they cost me when I started my business, just 8 years ago.

But I worry most customers simply wouldn't understand, if those cost increases found their way into my prices. The market is still partying like it's 2019.

It's not sustainable. No business can maintain for very long when materials costs go up 40%-70%, and shipping costs go up 300%-500%, but they don't raise prices, because they feel like they can't.

Welcome to the "new normal", maybe. I wouldn't get too used to it. My gut tells me there's at least one more shoe yet to drop.

I can slow down on production, and wait for the market to catch up. But even doing that, it means I'll be replacing what we didn't make today with something that costs even more to produce next year, and which will need to sell at an even higher price.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> NTH watch question. Should the 22mm Viton Strap fit on the new Devil Rays? I ask because I just spent the better part of 30 minutes trying to fit the orange Viton to the orange Devil Ray. I could get one side to stay put, get the pin inside the other lug, but no amount of manipulation would get that opposite side pin to hit the lug hole&#8230;almost like I couldn't push the rubber hard enough against the case. Same happened on both sides of case and regardless of which lug I started with.
> 
> I just want to verify it's supposed to fit before going at it again.


They will fit, albeit, with greater effort, due to the shorter lug length. I'd recommend using the thinner 1.5mm spring bars supplied with the straps, rather than the thicker 1.8mm spring bars from the 2K1's bracelet.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Random thinks in no particular order...
> 
> When oil prices go up, people switch to natural gas, which makes the price of gas go up. I've been reading and hearing similar things about people switching from sea freight (which I don't use) to air freight (which I do).
> 
> ...


Similar situations occurred during/after the financial crisis and against after Hanjin abruptly shuttered.

End customers everywhere are ready to get back to "life as normal" yesterday. That has every business (from those mining raw materials all the way through to the supply chain to B2C outlets) scrambling to catch up.

In a business world heavily built on demand based modeling ERP systems, often backwards looking, and limited human intervention with regards to forecasting beyond the computer (due to the dreaded upper management asking short sighted questions such as "so you think you're smarter than the computer?")it becomes inevitable when there is a SNAP back. Many are almost certainly over buying right now due to the panic and inflated lead times (one of the few data points the people manipulate). That causes massive constraints everywhere, and it will take well into 2022 (if not '23) to sort out.

The beauty of the broken ERP driven world is this....

Once they DO catch up, the massive multi-nationals will pull back the reigns to get inventory back in line. This will almost immediately create breathing room everywhere else in the supply chain, and prices for everything from raw materials to freight will come back down

Obviously pending another pandemic, $120/barrel crude, etc...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Similar situations occurred during/after the financial crisis and against after Hanjin abruptly shuttered.
> 
> End customers everywhere are ready to get back to "life as normal" yesterday. That has every business (from those mining raw materials all the way through to the supply chain to B2C outlets) scrambling to catch up.
> 
> ...


Some of this reminds me of that ABTW article a couple years back, regarding the Morgan Staley report on the watch industry, and what I think they dubbed the "whiplash" effect.

In a nutshell, and as they seemed to see it - if an AD sells 3 watches, they assume there's demand for 5, so they order 5. But the distributor sees that from every retailer, so they order even more. The brand sees that, from every distributor, and produces even more. Pretty soon, you have a glut of unsold inventory.

I never really bought into that explanation. I look at MOQ's as part of the problem, as well as the need "luxury" brands have to increase prices faster than inflation, and various other long term trends as being better explanations than the brands foolishly listened to what ADs said. From what I've seen, the brands don't listen to the AD's at all.

I do wonder about the current housing market, and car market, and various other markets for other products and commodities. How long can the auto-sales industry survive without having cars to sell, because "microchip shortage"?

Okay, fine, they can raise the price, but...just like with watches, people can't buy what they don't have enough money to buy. There's a practical limit to how much debt people can take on, in order to live in a house or drive a car. Eventually, people decide to live in smaller houses, or find another way to work.

Markets seem to naturally prefer equilibrium. I get nervous when things seem out of balance. When I run into a guy I've known for a while in the grocery store, but who doesn't strike me as being particularly smart, and he starts telling me to "invest" in crypto-currency*, all the whistles and bells on my "trouble ahead" system start going off all at once.

(True story, by the way - happened about 6 months ago.)

I sort of look at prices of most goods the same way I look at government spending. It never goes down. If an industry can survive after raising prices, why would that industry willingly allow prices to come back down?

The only answer I can think of is "competition". Competition is the one thing that tends to keep most businesses honest, so long as we're not talking about monopolies or massive collusion to engage in price-fixing.

For instance, I know that if I was massively over-charging for my product, and making an insane profit, then inevitably, someone would figure out how to replicate what I'm doing, and do it for just a lot less. This is why replica watches exist. It isn't _hard_ to make a convincing replica of a luxury watch and sell it at a decent profit, it's just illegal. You can make a very convincing Rolex rep and sell it for about $700-$1500, apparently.

Competition is a major factor in why I haven't raised my prices already, even though I honestly feel like they _need_ to be higher.

If watch brands are FORCED to raise prices, or go out of business, then they'll have to raise prices. If the market isn't willing to pay more for the product, then a lot of brands will go out of business anyway.

But the ones who survive aren't likely to lower prices after the dust settles, UNLESS our costs come down enough for new competitors coming online to think they can be successful under-pricing us. Competition will keep everyone honest.

But that can't happen if our costs don't come down.

So...I dunno. If costs come down, good. If they don't come down, but the market catches up, good. But if the costs keep going up, and the market demand doesn't catch up soon enough, it's bad, I think for everyone.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Some of this reminds me of that ABTW article a couple years back, regarding the Morgan Staley report on the watch industry, and what I think they dubbed the "whiplash" effect.
> 
> In a nutshell, and as they seemed to see it - if an AD sells 3 watches, they assume there's demand for 5, so they order 5. But the distributor sees that from every retailer, so they order even more. The brand sees that, from every distributor, and produces even more. Pretty soon, you have a glut of unsold inventory.
> 
> ...


I get it and agree. The unbalance always leaves me uncomfortable, because it only takes one mistake, natural disaster, or idiot to make it worse....for longer.

The luxury goods market perplexes me. The idea of knowingly over manufacturing and budgeting to destroy the excess supply. I can play devil's advocate in a business case....but I really just don't get it.

Now on crypto, I prefer governance tokens for platforms with a realistic, scalable business use case....until an ultra famous billionaire proves that a Tweet can create growth in a joke currency beyond anything I could ever imagine. Then I am reminded that I have no f*ckihn clue how the world really works


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Random thinks in no particular order...
> 
> When oil prices go up, people switch to natural gas, which makes the price of gas go up. I've been reading and hearing similar things about people switching from sea freight (which I don't use) to air freight (which I do).
> 
> ...


If it helps any Doc... in future put any watch I order in a cloth bag with bubble wrap... hand written note of thanks and send it to me in a padded bag.

No gifts, no cards, no fancy pants box...simples!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I get it and agree. The unbalance always leaves me uncomfortable, because it only takes one mistake, natural disaster, or idiot to make it worse....for longer.
> 
> The luxury goods market perplexes me. The idea of knowingly over manufacturing and budgeting to destroy the excess supply. I can play devil's advocate in a business case....but I really just don't get it.
> 
> Now on crypto, I prefer governance tokens for platforms with a realistic, scalable business use case....until an ultra famous billionaire proves that a Tweet can create growth in a joke currency beyond anything I could ever imagine. Then I am reminded that I have no f*ckihn clue how the world really works


I was thinking about my business, as an exemplar of any such business in this odd industry, earlier today, as I was driving.

In theory, my business should be able to scale well enough. I may only have so many hours in the day available for me to work, but if my sales go up, and I'm charging enough that there's enough profit for me to hire help, then the production capacity available to me is virtually limitless. I can make more of whatever we're making - there's the ability to scale.

In practice, at least lately, it doesn't feel that way. It feels more like I'm one of those guys you used to see spinning plates on sticks, on variety shows from the '50's. As soon as I get all the plates spinning, the first one starts to slow down, so I have to add energy, then move onto the second, then the third. I'm back to "only so many hours in the day", but now it's "only so many plates you can get spinning before you have to circle back to keep them all spinning."

I started thinking about big-volume businesses, like Nixon, MVMT, and Daniel Wellington, brands that sell $100-$200 watches, by the tens of thousands. Cheap watches, crap quality, no support, oblivious customers, but huge rewards for the brand founders.

I have no idea how to make a business like that work. Selling tens of thousands of watches, at such low prices, seems like it would require super-efficient operations, from day one. I don't have the resources to hire a dozen people to do all the things that would need to be done if I suddenly started selling tens of thousand watches every year. Even if I COULD do it, I don't think I'd LIKE doing it.

So then I got to thinking about the opposite extreme, the realm of boutique luxury brands, where efficiency in operations is less important, because the volume is much lower, but the margins are much higher. I'm not sure that would be a better business model for me, but it's certainly an easier one for me to understand, and see myself being in. Selling 300 watches at $2,000 seems like it would be easier and more enjoyable than selling 30,000 watches at $200.

It's a really strange experience, as an "entrepreneur", someone who has been conditioned to think that building a business bigger is the only goal that matters, to realize I'm thinking about, and envisioning a business that would actually be smaller, at least in terms of its production volume and the number of customers it has.

I'm seriously contemplating radically changing my business model, going up-market, lowering the volume, and simplifying my life a lot.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> If it helps any Doc... in future put any watch I order in a cloth bag with bubble wrap... hand written note of thanks and send it to me in a padded bag.
> 
> No gifts, no cards, no fancy pants box...simples!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


It doesn't help at all, but thanks nonetheless.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I was thinking about my business, as an exemplar of any such business in this odd industry, earlier today, as I was driving.
> 
> In theory, my business should be able to scale well enough. I may only have so many hours in the day available for me to work, but if my sales go up, and I'm charging enough that there's enough profit for me to hire help, then the production capacity available to me is virtually limitless. I can make more of whatever we're making - there's the ability to scale.
> 
> ...


As you think about this, here are my random thoughts. I've always thought it would be nice to be able to order a "quality watch" and pick the pieces (case type and color, dial type and color, hands type and color, bezel material and color, band, etc.). While you might have all that in stock, it would be worth about $200-$300 for me to have those options. So I'd pay $1k or so for a 2k1 if I could personalize it a bit. I can't imagine those pieces take up much storage space (maybe the cases). At $2k, I'm not sure what you can offer me in a micro brand when I can get into some very nice production watches at that price. Oris, Sinn, Longines, etc. The customization would make the difference. Not sure any of that's feasible, but I agree with your premise of working smarter, not harder.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

For anyone interested, my Devil Ray has been on my wrist a bit over 72 hours (minus about 20 min for a couple of showers). Using the Emerald Sequoia Time App, it’s at +10 seconds since I set time about 2:30 pm Monday using same app. Mine’s the no date movement.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaaannnnnddddd....right on cue, this pops up in my Facebook feed:









Covid restrictions force some retailers to rethink Vietnam as a manufacturing hub


Prolonged shutdowns in Vietnam because of the Covid pandemic are becoming a bigger headache for retailers.




www.cnbc.com





When I visited vendors' factories in 2018, my primary vendor told me (and I quote), "in ten years, no one will be making watches in China any more. All the production will be moved to places like Vietnam and Thailand."

From the article:

"When you think about the amount of effort everyone was putting into getting out of China, and now one of the only places where you can get the goods is China," Rawlins said. "It really is crazy, the roller coaster everyone has been on here."​
Now, I don't really think of myself as a conspiracy theorist, but...covid's been good for China, in a lot of ways.

Just sayin'...


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Mediocre said:


> I suddenly want to go buy something with a carburetor


More is better!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> As you think about this, here are my random thoughts. I've always thought it would be nice to be able to order a "quality watch" and pick the pieces (case type and color, dial type and color, hands type and color, bezel material and color, band, etc.). While you might have all that in stock, it would be worth about $200-$300 for me to have those options. So I'd pay $1k or so for a 2k1 if I could personalize it a bit. I can't imagine those pieces take up much storage space (maybe the cases). At $2k, I'm not sure what you can offer me in a micro brand when I can get into some very nice production watches at that price. Oris, Sinn, Longines, etc. The customization would make the difference. Not sure any of that's feasible, but I agree with your premise of working smarter, not harder.


Storage isn't the issue. The issue is minimum order quantities - 50 pieces, minimum, per part, for things like dials, 300-500 pireces for cases, 300 pieces for bracelets and straps.

If we planned to make 300 watches, we need to order 300 cases. If people want a choice of bracelet or strap, that's 300 pieces EACH. We'll end up with 300 more than we need.

Yeah, sure, we'll use them the next year, maybe, unless we change up the case design, and the bracelets won't work, or the straps won't fit.

Do that with dials. Say we order 100 per color, for 3 colors. 50 date, 50 no-date, in black, white, and blue. That's 300 dials. If you don't want one of those 3 colors, you're SOL. We can't order 50 dials because one guy wants a green dial.

How many different handsets should we stock? How do we choose which hands to stock, out of the thousands to choose from?

Bezel MATERIAL? What do you mean? Steel, aluminum, ceramic, or sapphire? Again, minimum order quantities, and only three of those would be "inserts". Sapphire bezels are not stand-alone parts you can simply install, like our steel bezels. Their production is much more complicated.

We not only have to stock bezels in different materials, but each of those in different colors?

Now, in this scenario, with all these parts, yeah, storage becomes an issue, as does inventory management, and explaining to someone that we don't have the parts we'd need to assemble the custom watch they're demanding, because "$2,000".

Nah.

How about this - I just make the best possible watch we can make, the best way I know how, and you get to decide whether or not you want it enough to pay what we're asking for it.

What does Chris Ward (or the new company, Tribus, started by the guy, Chris Ward), or Bremont, or RGM offer that Oris, Sinn, Longines doesn't? I dunno. Different designs, different quality, more exclusivity? Maybe some folks would rather have a CW than an Oris, or an RGM instead of an Omega.

What does NTH offer at $700 that Swatch Group or Seiko doesn't? Different horses for different courses. I don't need everyone to agree what we're making is better. I only need a small sliver of the market to see it, in order for my business to be successful.

Whatever it is we're doing to get people to spend $700, without offering endless customization options, I'll figure out how to get people to spend $2k, without endless customization options. No one needs to worry about that.

If I make a $2,000 watch, it'll be amazing. It won't matter if only 300 people per year see it that way. I'll only NEED 300 people per year to see it that way.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> As you think about this, here are my random thoughts. I've always thought it would be nice to be able to order a "quality watch" and pick the pieces (case type and color, dial type and color, hands type and color, bezel material and color, band, etc.).











Original Pilot Watch, Tactical Watch and Deck Watch from German Manufacturer DEKLA


DEKLA is a German manufacturer of mechanical watches at sensational prices with a high level of vertical integration




deklawatches.com


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I would be interested in what a $2000 NTH would bring to the table. It'd be a no holds barred masterpiece I'm sure. I'd pony up the money now to see one in the future come to fruition.

Steel bezels. I'll say it again, but I love it. If you think about it, its a great material to use if you want to endlessly swap them out. Less expensive than ceramic and sapphire and more resilient than those two and aluminum.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> Original Pilot Watch, Tactical Watch and Deck Watch from German Manufacturer DEKLA
> 
> 
> DEKLA is a German manufacturer of mechanical watches at sensational prices with a high level of vertical integration
> ...


And another that allows a lot of customisation...

h2o-watch.com

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Almost missed #NTHursday. Just got the Kiger insert in today.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

sgtlmj said:


> Almost missed #NTHursday. Just got the Kiger insert in today.


THAT is a cool watch you have there. Congrats.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I was thinking about my business, as an exemplar of any such business in this odd industry, earlier today, as I was driving.
> 
> In theory, my business should be able to scale well enough. I may only have so many hours in the day available for me to work, but if my sales go up, and I'm charging enough that there's enough profit for me to hire help, then the production capacity available to me is virtually limitless. I can make more of whatever we're making - there's the ability to scale.
> 
> ...


Go for it.


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

sgtlmj said:


> Almost missed #NTHursday. Just got the Kiger insert in today.


Welcome to the super-secret Amphion Commando/ Kiger insert club!


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

[email protected] C said:


> Welcome to the super-secret Amphion Commando/ Kiger insert club!
> 
> View attachment 16125675


It really is a sweet combo. Only wish I had an extra bezel/spring so I could keep the Commando insert on one and swap back and forth without messing with adhesive every time.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ok this one's pretty hot
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> Ok this one's pretty hot
> View attachment 16126372
> View attachment 16126374
> 
> ...


Nice&#8230;mine's still on the way back from the UK. Guess it wanted to visit Doc one more time&#8230;


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## boatswain (Sep 4, 2014)

[email protected] C said:


> Welcome to the super-secret Amphion Commando/ Kiger insert club!
> 
> View attachment 16125675


This,or something very similar, should be standard production model


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

boatswain said:


> This,or something very similar, should be standard production model


I agree- it's a great look in person. The lume on the bezel insert is almost a perfect match for the hands and indices. It's a very cohesive look without being overly busy- in my humble opinion, anyway.

It's all up to @docvail to make it happen!


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## boatswain (Sep 4, 2014)

I'm always on the hunt for a good milsub. 

My ideal would be a printed or applied steel markers. Steel hands. Black lumed bezel. Perhaps without the red triangle. C3 or BGW9 lume.

Cool bonus could be brushed hands and index surrounds for added legibility and tool watch vibe. And the  on top would be a bead blasted case.


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Lab4Us said:


> Nice&#8230;mine's still on the way back from the UK. Guess it wanted to visit Doc one more time&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 16126433


With all the posts on tracking, I thought this was funny:


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Afternoon playtime with the three amigos&#8230;


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

sgtlmj said:


> With all the posts on tracking, I thought this was funny:


Must have been a FedEx boat!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

These early delivery days are the best days...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One more.










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16126764
> View attachment 16126765
> View attachment 16126767


My "like" on this one was actually for the standard transmission in the center photo! I miss my 370Z! Okay, okay, the watches too!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

sgtlmj said:


> With all the posts on tracking, I thought this was funny:


Is that better or worse than your package is on the ship stuck in the Suez Canal?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Is that better or worse than your package is on the ship stuck in the Suez Canal?


That's worse. If it's still on the ship, there's still a chance...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Confession 

I just bought another strap from NTH for a watch that has not yet arrived


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Mediocre said:


> Confession
> 
> I just bought another strap from NTH for a watch that has not yet arrived


More food for the fish?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> More food for the fish?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Yep, currently headed my way in a submarine with a leaky hatch

Drone, no live passengers


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Just got mine!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

All these new Devil Rays are looking killer!!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

I see your Barracuda and raise you a Devil Ray&#8230;AND a Boxer!


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Mediocre said:


> View attachment 16128528


Man that is slick, especially on that strap. ALL the vintage vibes.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

cghorr01 said:


> Man that is slick, especially on that strap. ALL the vintage vibes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Thanks! I was glad the strap (which I had laying around) worked even better than I had hoped!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

The Cuda in the 'Runner&#8230; unfiltered.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Football Canadian style&#8230;..


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

DevilRay in the car.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> View attachment 16128528


Is that gold tone strap furniture? I'd have never thought to do that. It's genius, and looks the the bees nuts. Turns it into a different style watch. Very _Cool_ 👍


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

High noon in the land of the Devil Ray&#8230;


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

catsteeth said:


> Is that good tone strap furniture? I'd have never thought to do that. It's genius, and looks the the bees nuts. Turns it into a different style watch. Very _Cool_ 👍


I think you were asking about gold tone, yes it is. Came out even better than expected. Thank you, too kind!


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Car servicing..... I came home to a service due message on my daughters Mini. It was clearly written in a code only dads could read as she knew "nothing about it". When I tried to phone to find out which service was required and how much it would cost, they couldn't tell me, not even when supplied with the reg number. 
To find that out I have to take the keys to the dealer and they will get the information from them. Really? The keys? All the way there, then back again when I can finally get an service booked


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

gavindavie said:


> Car servicing..... I came home to a service due message on my daughters Mini. It was clearly written in a code only dads could read as she knew "nothing about it". When I tried to phone to find out which service was required and how much it would cost, they couldn't tell me, not even when supplied with the reg number.
> To find that out I have to take the keys to the dealer and they will get the information from them. Really? The keys? All the way there, then back again when I can finally get an service booked


OE's are doing all they can to get people back to the dealer for service. So much more margin in parts and service than selling vehicles


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

First day on wrist. Very happy with this acquisition.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

I mentioned in another thread that earlier today I was in the process of paying for one of the new Carribbean watches from TimeFactors that I'd managed to snag in the 2 minute buying frenzy when Eddie opend up the online sales, when I had an epiphany. 
It's not the lovely sunburst yellow dial and navy blue bezel I desire, it's a sunburst blue dialled DevilRay! 
I deleted the shopping basket and let another happy soul have it, and I'll be off to watchgecko.com if anyone wants me.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone looking for a v.1 Champagne Antilles? There's one for sale in f29.









NTH Antilles Champaign dial


Selling this beautiful Antilles. 40mm x 48mm x 20mm x 11.5mm Swiss tech Prod. Cal. STP-11 auto Double-domed anti-reflective sapphire 20ATM/200M Screw-down crown Includes original BOR and tropic straps. Fantastic condition apart from the usual strap change and bracelet swirls. $500 usd +...




www.watchuseek.com


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## whatisk (Mar 5, 2020)

Finally got around to putting the leather nato on my Dark Rum.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

whatisk said:


> Finally got around to putting the leather nato on my Dark Rum.
> View attachment 16131168
> View attachment 16131169


It's like they were made for each other! A perfect match. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

POLAR Ray up today with some macros
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

Mediocre said:


> OE's are doing all they can to get people back to the dealer for service. So much more margin in parts and service than selling vehicles


My recent experiences with Auto Service Departments is that they have become as much a sales department as they are a service department. I recently took our 2002 Sequoia in to the dealer because the power steering went and my mechanic friend was away for the month. They tried to tell me that it would be a $6,000 repair because 'It's a bad power steering hose, but where it's connected has a bit of rust on it, so corporate says we have to replace that for $2,500, but the part it attaches to also has some rust, so that must be replaced for $3,500."

This for a truck with a book value of $5,000. I took the truck home, and parked it until my friend returned. He repaired it with a $3.50 return hose, and a half hour of labor. Total cost of the repair, $50. The rust was mere surface rust that easily brushed away with a steel bristle brush.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

whatisk said:


> Finally got around to putting the leather nato on my Dark Rum.
> View attachment 16131168
> View attachment 16131169


Wow. Perfect match on that strap.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Mr.Boots said:


> My recent experiences with Auto Service Departments is that they have become as much a sales department as they are a service department. I recently took our 2002 Sequoia in to the dealer because the power steering went and my mechanic friend was away for the month. They tried to tell me that it would be a $6,000 repair because 'It's a bad power steering hose, but where it's connected has a bit of rust on it, so corporate says we have to replace that for $2,500, but the part it attaches to also has some rust, so that must be replaced for $3,500."
> 
> This for a truck with a book value of $5,000. I took the truck home, and parked it until my friend returned. He repaired it with a $3.50 return hose, and a half hour of labor. Total cost of the repair, $50. The rust was mere surface rust that easily brushed away with a steel bristle brush.


Wow, that's absolutely ridiculous. This is why the general public despises dealerships. If it's genuinely rusted out to the point where it's unsafe then I can see component replacement being recommended. Some surface rust though? The service advisor should be ashamed to look at himself in a mirror.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

cghorr01 said:


> Wow, that's absolutely ridiculous. This is why the general public despises dealerships. If it's genuinely rusted out to the point where it's unsafe then I can see component replacement being recommended. Some surface rust though? The service advisor should be ashamed to look at himself in a mirror.
> 
> Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


To be fair, he was embarrassed as I've worked with him in the past. He said this was new corporate policy, and once his technician typed it in, if he did it differently, it would be flagged. No reason not to believe him as he is been a straight shooter in the past.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Mr.Boots said:


> To be fair, he was embarrassed as I've worked with him in the past. He said this was new corporate policy, and once his technician typed it in, if he did it differently, it would be flagged. No reason not to believe him as he is been a straight shooter in the past.


"I'm sorry Sir, but our new corporate policy is such that if there is a single speck of surface rust we must replace the entire mechanical workings of the vehicle and screw the customer as hard as humanly possible!"

Their 'corporate' policy smells like a lawsuit waiting to happen once customers figure out they're getting screwed. Like I said, telling someone they need to replace a rotted component for safety, by all means. Telling someone they need a repair in excess of a vehicle's value for light surface rust, that's deceptive business. Think of the folks who know nothing that actually agree to that repair. It's theft by deception in my mind.

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not sure where my last update on my son's car left off, but here's the latest...

His car - still not fixed. But the good news is they finally got that BMW 6 series out of there last week, which they said would help speed things along. They said they'd need 10 days to fix his car, which I now assume means at least 20 days.

The Infiniti loaner car - still not running. I've told them at least three times that I will buy it, as soon as they get it running, which means at least a few thousand dollars in cash for them, but that doesn't seem like it's a huge motivator.

Last time I was there, when she said the Infiniti still wasn't running, she pointed out a V8 Toyota 4Runner, which she swore up and down is running, and we could have as a loaner, as soon as she updates the registration. She was supposed to do that late last week, but when I spoke to her on Friday, she said the guy she goes to wasn't in the office last week, so she's supposed to handle it today or tomorrow.

I asked how much they wanted for the 4Runner. "No, you can't buy it. It's a V8. No good on gas."

I mean...at this point, when I'm already planning to get another car into the household anyway, because my younger son will be turning 16 in November, having a sturdy SUV, with 4WD, seems like it might come in handy, given my GTI and my son's Passat wagon are both FWD, and we live in an area where it snows every winter. Just give me a price, lady. How thirsty could it be?

Meanwhile, my wife tells me this morning that her car is apparently now also due for an oil change, or at least will be soon, according to the alert on the dash, but just like with my car, we're procrastinating, in the hopes we can get a car, any car, back into the household before we take her car in.

The guy who was supposed to sell me his daughter's Lexus says he's keeping it, but I suspect he's actually selling it for a higher price than the one we agreed upon, to the other interested buyer, from his church.

I've owned 20 cars in the last 32 years (yes, I know, it seems like a high number, but I'm including my wife's cars and my son's car, and there were a few I didn't own very long). In all that time, with all those cars, I never went through any repair experience remotely close to this. It's nucking futs. I can't remember it ever taking more than 2, maybe 3 days, to get a car fixed and back on the road.

I also can't ever remember it being this hard to find and buy a used car.


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Mr.Boots said:


> They tried to tell me that it would be a $6,000 repair because 'It's a bad power steering hose, but where it's connected has a bit of rust on it, so corporate says we have to replace that for $2,500, but the part it attaches to also has some rust, so that must be replaced for $3,500."


Sounds familiar. This wasn't recent, but I had a catalytic converter go out on a car (Formula Firebird 1LE). First time this happened the dealer simply cut it out and welded in a new one. No muss, no fuss and only about $200.

Several years later the same converter had the catalyst collapse, so time for another one. The Pontiac franchise in town had been sold to another dealer, so now the quote to replace the converter was like $1500. I told them I didn't want a new engine, just the converter. No can do. Apparently, the entire N10 system was required to be replaced and no other option existed--now. Two new high flow cats from Summit and the local muffler shop had things squared away for under $500.

I normally don't mind using dealers for maintenance, but you do have to view what they're telling you with a certain degree of skepticism.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Glad I live out in Texas in a city of 120k…oil changes are usually 30 min or less at Avis Lube, Pennzoil Quick Cnange, etc. even Jeep dealer has quick service lane and if you go after lunch, it’s right around an hour, worse case scenario. Haven’t had to deal with pandemic car repairs, but daughter hit a deer and hers goes in late Oct to insurance team repair shop. Almost dread it since it’s drivable, but a 2021 Hyundai and bet fender pieces aren’t going to be easy to get.

Left St. Louis in 1976 and have zero desire to live in, near, close to a major city. Stationed near Phoenix 1980-82 cemented that position. Dallas and Ft Worth about 200 miles away is close enough!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Double Post


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## Ozludo (Oct 4, 2020)

I read that good used cars are becoming scarce due to Covid - people losing jobs or working less are holding cars for longer rather than trading them in. Might be a factor. I believe it's happening here as well as the US


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I also can't ever remember it being this hard to find and buy a used car.


Yeah, I kind of chuckle when I get the "we're needing to buy your (various make) car/truck ASAP" from dealers. As if I'd be able to buy another reasonably priced car, new or used. Been stories out here of some high demand used cars costing more than new. Glad I got my Grand Cherokee when I did, before the auto industry went full on whacko.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

No white after Labor Day?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> No white after Labor Day?
> 
> BWAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Odin Blue, anyone?

I'll vouch for the seller.









SOLD!! NTH Odin - Blue Dial


SOLD. I have an NTH Odin with blue dial. This watch is in mint condition with no marks on the case, sapphire crystal or bracelet. Watch comes in original NTH packaging and includes NTH leather slide case, extra bracelet links, and warranty. SOLD. Not looking for any trades. Please let me know...




www.watchuseek.com


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Van Halen, 1978

Yeah, yeah, ah, yeah
I live my life like there's no tomorrow
And all I've got, I had to steal
Least I don't need to beg or borrow
Yes I'm livin' at a pace that kills
Ooh, yeah
(Ahh)
Runnin' with the Devil
(Ahh-hah, yeah)
(Woo-hoo-oo)
Runnin' with the Devil
Yes I'm, yeah, hoo


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> Odin Blue, anyone?
> 
> I'll vouch for the seller.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc. Hate to part with this one, but had some unexpected bills dropped in my lap.

Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Thanks Doc. Hate to part with this one, but had some unexpected bills dropped in my lap.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


Was one of them a car repair?

Because that would totally be on-topic here recenty.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

I wish. No, medical unfortunately. 


Sent from a van down by the river…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> I wish. No, medical unfortunately.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


Sorry to hear, D. Hopefully you're on the mend.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a quick comment to reiterate the probably obvious...

While I definitely appreciate seeing everyone's pics being posted here, and hearing when you're happy with the NTH you got, I hope you all also post those same pics and comments elsewhere in the forums.

NTH doesn't have celebrity endorsements. We don't seek out social media "influencers". Our happy customers are our brand ambassadors. The praise we get from you matters more than all the reviews we get, and all the marketing we could ever do.

It's true what they say. Word of mouth is the best advertising.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

When receive a new NTH or wear one in rotation, like any other watch, it might get posted:

Here on WUS, in appropriate special interest thread. Like my Vostok Mods get posted in the mod thread in the Russia Watch forum, or field watches in the Affordables field watch thread. Today's example, a Komandirskie, to posted to the Hand Wind thread in Public.

General WRUW thread, usually the daily thread here in Affordables. Today's example is no different.

Appropriate FB Group. If I wore an NTH, it would be in one microbrands Group or another. But oddly, probably not the NTH group... Today's watch will be in the Vostok Watches Group, if I get around to it...

I don't do IG, Twitter, or any other social media.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Reading the last page or two I almost responded with "this is why I work on my own vehicles".....

But then I remembered I work on my vehicles because I am a cheapa$$

Off to post an NTH somewhere!


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

Ozludo said:


> I read that good used cars are becoming scarce due to Covid - people losing jobs or working less are holding cars for longer rather than trading them in. Might be a factor. I believe it's happening here as well as the US


Two reasons:
Used cars are scarce because folks who normally took mass transit to work went out and bought used cars to avoid mass transit. Roads were crazy for a while because many seemed to have forgotten how to drive, and the rest of the folks on the road got used to empty roads where they could drive like maniacs.

Used cars are also scarce because there has been a massive shortage of new vehicles, or drivable new cars, because of the chip shortage due to COVID. Many car lots have vehicles that the factories forced on them without chips, with the promise that they would send the chips when available and the dealership can install them.. (can't imagine anything going wrong with that /s). My son in law's new truck has been sitting on the lot for a month waiting for the chips to arrive.

He's driving my old 2002 Sequioa because his 4runner lease was up, and when he checked the buyout price, he immediately contacted an outfit called Fusion here on Long Island and they offered him $10,000 over the buyout sight unseen because they were desperate for clean used cars. He immediately took the lease buyout and went to Fusion for a quick $10,000 profit.

And some folks flipping like that only happens with watches.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Just a quick comment to reiterate the probably obvious...
> 
> While I definitely appreciate seeing everyone's pics being posted here, and hearing when you're happy with the NTH you got, I hope you all also post those same pics and comments elsewhere in the forums.
> 
> ...


NTH Thread&#8230;check
Public Forum&#8230;check
Affordabke watches&#8230;check
Divers&#8230;check
Oh! AND the G-Shock Unshocking thread&#8230;check

Almost daily&#8230;though I do occasionally wear one of my other brands, but usually only for a day or two before I rotate through all my NTH again, which is anywhere between 3-7 days per.

Definitely need you to keep selling so you'll make some new 2K1 and Tropics versions that aren't just different colored dials.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Definitely need you to keep selling so you'll make some new 2K1 and Tropics versions that aren't just different colored dials.


Welp...I'm confused.

What would a new 2K1 or Tropics version be if not a different colored dial?

For whatever it's worth, we've got two new versions of the Antilles coming with the next release, due soon (maybe within the next 30 days).

Both linen dials, so that's more than just a different dial color. We've never done linen dials before. I'll post some pics in a sec. I just sent two of them off for professional photography.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here we go...









































































Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kind of hard to make out the linen texture with the plastic wrappers on and my craptastic photo skills.

Photog confirmed he has the samples I sent, and should have pics done by the end of the week.

I'll see if I can get a video I took of each posted to YT.

Stay tuned...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

And, here we go again...


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

That teal color is gorgeous. Going to be offered with a date?

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> That teal color is gorgeous.


Cheers. I like how both turned out, but yeah, that blue is calling me to snag one for the personal collection.



cghorr01 said:


> Going to be offered with a date?


Nope. No date only on both of these, at least for now.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Welp...I'm confused.
> 
> What would a new 2K1 or Tropics version be if not a different colored dial?
> 
> ...


Lol, not falling into that trap&#8230;you chew our asses every time we suggest development for your watches. Let's just say there are other archipelagos and deep sea subs available for farming additional names in the tropics and 2K1 overarching model categories, which could then have different dial designs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Lol, not falling into that trap&#8230;you chew our asses every time we suggest development for your watches. Let's just say there are other archipelagos and deep sea subs available for farming additional names in the tropics and 2K1 overarching model categories, which could then have different dial designs.












I have one more colorway for the 2K1's already ginned up, ready to go to production, for whenever we make more.

Aside from these two new Antilles colors, alternative versions of the Tropics haven't even entered my mind yet.

I've got so many other things to get to before then.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I have one more colorway for the 2K1's already ginned up, ready to go to production, for whenever we make more.
> 
> Aside from these two new Antilles colors, alternative versions of the Tropics haven't even entered my mind yet.
> 
> I've got so many other things to get to before then.


Lol again&#8230;no rush. 6 NTH in as many months (or less) will hold me for a while ?.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Lol again&#8230;no rush. 6 NTH in as many months (or less) will hold me for a while .


See, you say that, but...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Here we go...
> 
> View attachment 16134359
> View attachment 16134361
> ...


The blue looks nice well done.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

This discussion reminds me of Andrea True...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Update on the cars...

Loaner SUV - registration not updated yet. Texted her today. She tells me she's at the hospital.

Stopped by a little bit ago. It seems both her daughters fell ill at school with mysterious symptoms - looks like vaccine side-effects, not looking to start an argument, just telling it the way it was told to me, let's not get into a debate about it here - and needed to be hospitalized. They're home recovering now, but of course their parents are beside themselves with worry.

She said she'd try to do the registration online today, and hopefully have it done so we can pick up the car tomorrow.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I just sent two of them off for professional photography.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16135064


I don't get it.

We've been using a pro photog for a while now.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> We've been using a pro photog for a while now.


Ah. Sorry, just remembering back to WoTs about renders, social media pix, why bother with pro photography posts, of yore...

As you were...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

I put a spell on you&#8230;


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> Here we go...
> 
> View attachment 16134359
> View attachment 16134361
> ...


These look amazing Doc. Not sure how just yet, but I'm going to try to find a way to get the blue model; it's definitely something special.

Sent from a van down by the river&#8230;


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

After 10 or so days with the Devil Rays, thought I'd get back to my favorite, now sporting a nice new leather NATO in green!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Ah. Sorry, just remembering back to WoTs about renders, social media pix, why bother with pro photography posts, of yore...
> 
> As you were...


I mean...if you want me to be really real about it...

People complained, "Wahhhh!!! I don't like buying from renders!" even though our renders were always pretty accurate, and to the extent they weren't, they didn't make the product look BETTER than it does in real life. Just the opposite, people always said (and still say) the watches are even better in real life, so it's not like our images were deceptive, to our benefit.

I didn't really mind adding the expense of professional photography, once we found a solid photographer who did good work, fast, and cheap. Prior to that, my main objection to photography is that it took too long, it was pretty expensive, and the images weren't very good, nor any more realistic than our renders.

Since we started using a pro photog, I can't say I've noticed any difference in sales. So, as far as I can tell, no one who cried "Wahhhh!" changed their mind because we showed them photos.

So much for listening to the whingers...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If I was the stock market, FedEx stock would be crashing right now.

I ordered my vitamins online from GNC.com over a week ago. This is what's happened since then.










From North Wales, PENNSYLVANIA, to MD, then WV, then back to PA.

Wondering how far North Wales is from me?










I could have WALKED there, taken a dump, a nice, relaxing, long one, picked up my vitamins, and walked home, and it would have taken me 2 days, tops.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

The linen dials look slick, keeping my eye on them!!

And while you're on the discussion of design, what's next, etc...


What about the super secret, retro, non-diver?!?!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> If I was the stock market, FedEx stock would be crashing right now.
> 
> I ordered my vitamins online from GNC.com over a week ago. This is what's happened since then.
> 
> ...


Bro, your vitamins broke FedEx FOR REAL!!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Bro, your vitamins broke FedEx FOR REAL!!!
> 
> View attachment 16136053


If you think that's bad, imagine what I would have done to their toilet...

For real, though, if this teaches us anything, it's don't f**k with Doc. When you do, bad stuff happens.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> The linen dials look slick, keeping my eye on them!!
> 
> And while you're on the discussion of design, what's next, etc...
> 
> What about the super secret, retro, non-diver?!?!


No progress in months.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> No progress in months.


What?!?!!? Stop spending time on the tried and true, proven avenues to dependable business and accommodate requests for risky off-shoots from forum members (me)!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> If I was the stock market, FedEx stock would be crashing right now.
> 
> I ordered my vitamins online from GNC.com over a week ago. This is what's happened since then.
> 
> ...


Ahhh&#8230;FedEx&#8230;MY HEROES!


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I just ordered some watch parts from the Philippines, fed ex sent me a “delayed” notification exactly concurrent with my “picked up” notification.


Thanks Doc.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> What?!?!!? Stop spending time on the tried and true, proven avenues to dependable business and accommodate requests for risky off-shoots from forum members (me)!


Funny you mention dependable business...

This "Rolex shortage" story doesn't seem to be going away. Apparently, Rolex finally commented on it. I'll save everyone the time of finding and reading what they said.

The main takeaways were:

1. It's not intentional. We can't help it. We're at the limits of our production capacity.

2. Even if we could find increased capacity, that would only lessen the quality of the product.

3. There's no strategic angle here. So, shoo, begone, plebs, and darken our doorstep no further.

My gut reaction to those three is that they're currently ranked here in order from most to least credible.

They also mentioned something about there not really being "wait lists", or if there are, they have nothing to do with it. They ship the inventory to AD's, and let AD's figure out who's worthy of buying a Rolex, using whatever system they deem appropriate.

I mention all this because someone posted to Facebook about it. I happened to see it, before anyone posted a comment yet, and foolishly (in retrospect) weighed in with my opinion, once again failing to realize I'd be sucked into a game of dueling WOT's.

Shortest version I can offer:

1. I mostly believe it isn't intentional. It's not a "shortage", so much as it is a mis-match between suddenly surging demand and what the market seems to think is "value" pricing (please don't laugh or throw rotten vegetables at me). Increasing production is probably not possible, and even if it is, I believe it's very inadvisable.

2. The problem would go away if they raised prices. That's the real solution.

3. Increasing prices isn't without its own risks, in the event of demand falling off in the future (which always happens following an asset bubble).

In short, it's totally strategic, and conscious, on their part. It's not an intent to create a shortage, per se, it's an intent to ignore the shortage inasmuch as it has no effect whatsoever on Rolex's business now, and trying to "fix" a problem that really isn't one for them, or their customers (the people who actually have bought one), is likely to lead to problems which will in fact be theirs.

So, to all those who waste their energy wailing and gnashing their teeth at Rolex, stop. Rolex doesn't care, nor should they, nor should they change what they're doing. If I were in charge of Rolex, I'd be doing exactly the same thing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those of you who actually like reading WOT's...









Rolex breaks silence on alarming shortages and soaring waiting lists


"The scarcity of our products is not a strategy on our part," Rolex insists.




www.watchpro.com






























There's more, a lot more, with other people joining in, but you get the idea...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Funny you mention dependable business...
> 
> This "Rolex shortage" story doesn't seem to be going away. Apparently, Rolex finally commented on it. I'll save everyone the time of finding and reading what they said.
> 
> ...


The one thing I would do different if I were running Rolex is increase prices slightly. Not enough to risk business damage after the bubble pops, but take advantage of the ridiculous market to make extra profit


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> So, to all those who waste their energy wailing and gnashing their teeth at Rolex, stop. Rolex doesn't care, nor should they, nor should they change what they're doing. If I were in charge of Rolex, I'd be doing exactly the same thing.


That's good to know! Rolex cares as much about me as I care about them! Lots of things I'd rather spend $10K, $20K, $30K+ on than a watch that tells me the time just as accurately as my $200+ watches. Actually the Rolex are likely much less accurate than my few G-Shock multi 6 band models&#8230;and far less resilient.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> That's good to know! Rolex cares as much about me as I care about them! Lots of things I'd rather spend $10K, $20K, $30K+ on than a watch that tells me the time just as accurately as my $200+ watches. Actually the Rolex are likely much less accurate than my few G-Shock multi 6 band models&#8230;and far less resilient.


Wot???

Surely you're not aware of 904 steel's virtues...

(/sarcasm)

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> If I was the stock market, FedEx stock would be crashing right now.
> 
> I ordered my vitamins online from GNC.com over a week ago. This is what's happened since then.
> 
> ...


Hagerstown? I do remember refusing a package?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I really have a problem with people who don't understand basic economics...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> I really have a problem with people who don't understand basic economics...


How do you manage visiting WUS?!??!!?!


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## Baldrick (Apr 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> Here we go...
> 
> View attachment 16134359
> View attachment 16134361
> ...


That blue is rather good....apologies if I missed it, but when do you anticipate these going on sale?

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Baldrick said:


> That blue is rather good....apologies if I missed it, but when do you anticipate these going on sale?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Not precisely sure, but perhaps within the next 30-45 days.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHursday


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> #NTHursday
> 
> View attachment 16137832
> 
> ...


That strap really is an amazing match.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday #OGSub










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

The saga continues&#8230;









FedEx says it's rerouting more than 600,000 packages a day because it can't find enough staff to process them


A FedEx hub in Portland, Oregon, was down 35% of the staff it needed to handle normal volume, and was diverting a quarter of packages, the COO said.




www.businessinsider.com


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Wowzers! 
This blue beauty arrived today and I think I'm smitten ?



I ordered from watchgecko and they are giving away 2 free straps and a leather watch roll which has made Vic a very happy boy!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

bigvic said:


> Wowzers!
> This blue beauty arrived today and I think I'm smitten 😍
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! Love that blue!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*NOT MY LISTING*

EXTREMELY RARE (1 of 5 pieces) v.1 DevilRay "Deep Six" limited edition no-date. This was in fact my personal watch before I sold it to this guy, who is now selling it. So I'll vouch for the seller as a solid dude, whom I've met personally.









https://www.ebay.com/itm/115006531376?hash=item1ac6ec6730:g:KpoAAOSw2iphTMWs


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bigvic said:


> Wowzers!
> This blue beauty arrived today and I think I'm smitten 😍
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's well known not to aggravate anyone with "Big" in their name.

Glad you like it. Enjoy it and wear it in good health. Try not to step on any small children or household pets.


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## [email protected] C (Dec 11, 2011)

Almost missed #NTHursday&#8230;..


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

docvail said:


> I think it's well known not to aggravate anyone with "Big" in their name.
> 
> Glad you like it. Enjoy it and wear it in good health. Try not to step on any small children or household pets.


You should see the wife! 

Any tips on removing the bracelet? I've tried the single pin removal tool and the Rolex type but them there pins ain't for moving!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bigvic said:


> You should see the wife!
> 
> Any tips on removing the bracelet? I've tried the single pin removal tool and the Rolex type but them there pins ain't for moving!


Have you tried a 1.2mm wide flat head screwdriver?

(They're screws, not pins.)

(Remember to put some thread-locker on the screws you take out while sizing, when you put them back in.)


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Began the week and ending the week with a tool watch.
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

docvail said:


> Have you tried a 1.2mm wide flat head screwdriver?
> 
> (They're screws, not pins.)
> 
> (Remember to put some thread-locker on the screws you take out while sizing, when you put them back in.)


Sorry I meant bracelet from the case, should have said lug pins. I've sized the bracelet which was a breeze and a drop of Locktite on each one but I fancied changing over to see the freebie straps sent from WatchGecko, a blue tropic and a sailcloth.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

bigvic said:


> Sorry I meant bracelet from the case, should have said lug pins. I've sized the bracelet which was a breeze and a drop of Locktite on each one but I fancied changing over to see the freebie straps sent from WatchGecko, a blue tropic and a sailcloth.


Mine were hard too, but they moved and it seemed the more times I pulled it down, the easier it was to move. I managed to get them off by using pin tool and at same time applying outward pressure on bracelet. This is with watch face down on very soft cloth then tilted up slightly with pin I'm working on closest to table. Also careful use of pin tool while sliding it onto pin and pulling down. I also had to open bracelet all the way for better access. I was eventually able to get one side out of the pin hole and against inside of lug, then get other side of pin loose. I also found if I couldn't get one side out, sometimes the other side was easier.

Two Devil Rays and both were very difficult to remove pins from, but eventually got them both out of bracelet.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Lab4Us said:


> Mine were hard too, but they moved and it seemed the more times I pulled it down, the easier it was to move. I managed to get them off by using pin tool and at same time applying outward pressure on bracelet. This is with watch face down on very soft cloth then tilted up slightly with pin I'm working on closest to table. Also careful use of pin tool while sliding it onto pin and pulling down. I also had to open bracelet all the way for better access. I was eventually able to get one side out of the pin hole and against inside of lug, then get other side of pin loose. I also found if I couldn't get one side out, sometimes the other side was easier.
> 
> Two Devil Rays and both were very difficult to remove pins from, but eventually got them both out of bracelet.


Thanks for the advice, patience is the key, I always undo the bracelet fully it makes the job so much simpler and less chance of scratches. The spring bars (I couldn't remember what the hell they're called  ) look pretty long, they actually fit my Tudor 23mm lugs fine but these two freebies straps are fitted with quick release spring bars so no problems removing them.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Not exactly dark rum but I'm sure they still go together well.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Found this NATO in the bottom of my strap box, 20mm but it suits the dial pretty well.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

bigvic said:


> Found this NATO in the bottom of my strap box, 20mm but it suits the dial pretty well.


Sean Connery didn't care if his NATO was too skinny so why should we? Looks great.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brey17 (Mar 29, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Began the week and ending the week with a tool watch.
> View attachment 16139595
> View attachment 16139597
> 
> ...


That is gorgeous.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

New watch band day!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Afternoon change-up









Edit: I went to put the BoP back on and remembered it needs slightly narrower spring bars. Anyone remember their diameter? I think its 1.3mm?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Afternoon change-up
> View attachment 16143889
> 
> 
> Edit: I went to put the BoP back on and remembered it needs slightly narrower spring bars. Anyone remember their diameter? I think its 1.3mm?


1.5mm.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

⚔


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Thanks for the reminder to wear mine! #41 checking in!









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Feels like it's NATO:30 around here. Well, I'm your Huckleberry. That's just my game:


















WatchGecko single pass seatbelt NATO. 👌


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Feels like it's NATO:30 around here. Well, I'm your Huckleberry. That's just my game:
> 
> View attachment 16145601
> 
> ...


That looks outstanding!


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> That looks outstanding!


My standard crappy pictures don't do it justice. WatchGecko nailed it with this strap.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

New watch band day for the Thresher…now a shark in koi clothing! Stainless steel mesh from Strapsco.

Sorry for blur, low light and can’t hold camera still 😂.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Coriolanus said:


> Feels like it's NATO:30 around here. Well, I'm your Huckleberry. That's just my game:
> 
> View attachment 16145601
> 
> ...


Nice! a fellow Amphion Vintage Gilt fan!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Twehttam said:


> ⚔


Im dying to get one of these! so bad ass looking!


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

PowerChucker said:


> Im dying to get one of these! so bad ass looking!


Get those alerts set.  This is actually my second and one of the few watches I've flipped I've _really_ regretted. This one popped up on eBay about a month ago and I jumped on it quick. Awesome dial. Really everything about it is great. Good luck!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Im dying to get one of these! so bad ass looking!


Good luck with that. I don't know how many Kiger had left when that Rolex "MilSub" trademark kerfuffle started, but I'm pretty sure he sold out instantly once it broke wide, and I can't remember the last time I saw one hit the used market.



Twehttam said:


> Get those alerts set.  This is actually my second and one of the few watches I've flipped I've _really_ regretted. This one popped up on eBay about a month ago and I jumped on it quick. Awesome dial. Really everything about it is great. Good luck!


Indeed.

When Kiger told me he wanted to put a skull and crossed swords on the dial, my thinking was, "Okay, Dude, you're paying for these, so we'll do whatever you want, but I'd bet the ranch the haters and trolls will be tripping over each other to tell the world how much they despise it..."

To be fair, I think the haters and trolls did make their feelings pretty well known, but at the same time, it was just 47 pieces, with a pretty unique concept overall, and if he wasn't already all but sold out, Rolex would have been named "Salesperson of the Year" when they sued him.

It's one of those things that messes with my head sometimes. On the one hand, if I made 50 pieces of a watch with something like that on the dial, I feel like people wouldn't know what to make of it, and the hate would be off the chart. But on the other hand, when we make it for Kiger, once they're sold out, they become unobtainium.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On that note from my post above...

I'm certain at least 3 models sold out in the last week, but I can only remember 2 - the Oberon v.2, and the Barracuda Polar White.

I hate to say we'll NEVER make more of something, because I like to be optimistic that future demand will warrant bringing old designs back. But I'm also realistic enough to recognize that some designs run their course, and 50-100 pieces is enough, forever. As such, I'm thinking about "discontinuing" most of these...

There's only one Nazario Azzurro (Blue) left in the world, at WatchGauge. We only made 50. We're not making more.

There are only 5 Scorpène Nomads left, all No Date, at IntoWatch. Email them to have the Korean tax removed from the price before ordering. I don't foresee making the Nomad version again, after making just 50, total (25 date/25 no-date).

Only 3 Bahias left, 1 no date and 2 with date, all at IntoWatch. Ditto the above, vis-a-vis the tax. We made 70, total (35 date, 35 no-date). I doubt we'll assemble more.

I think there's still 1 DevilRay, Black left, with Date, at IntoWatch, and 2 no-dates in White, also at IntoWatch. Those are the last available in the world. I doubt we'll have more DevilRays before mid-next-year.

There's 1 white Swiftsure, a no-date, left, at The Watchdrobe in Hong Kong. Last one in the world. I doubt we'll have more available before mid-next-year.

There's 1 DLC Näcken Modern Black (v.1), a with date, at Serious. Last one in the world. I don't foresee making more of these, ever, after assembling just 10 DLC, total (5 date / 5 no-date).

There are only 3 of the v.1 Modern Black left, with stainless cases, all of them at Intowatch (all with date). We're onto the v.2's, so v.1's are becoming an endangered species.

There are only 2 of the v.1 Näcken Modern Blue left, both with-date, also at IntoWatch. Ditto the above.

There's 1 Nazario Vino Rosso, in stainless, at IntoWatch. I don't foresee making more, after assembling just 25 (20 stainless, 5 DLC).

There are only 2 of the Vino Rosso in DLC - one on my site, one at Serious. Again, I doubt we'll make more, especially not in DLC (we assembled 5, per the above).

There are only 2 Scorpène White left - 1 at Serious (on BOR, though they'll swap it out for an Oyster, if you ask, I think), and 1 at Five:45 in New Zealand. I doubt we'll make more, after assembling 25 (20 stainless, 5 DLC).

As you can see, with most of the above, the assembly numbers were pretty low. Assuming that means most won't be seen very often on the used market, please consider getting what you want, now, before it's gone, and your inquiry about when we'll make more gets a "never, now GTFOH" response from me.

Just sayin'...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fresh from the Photog...


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)




----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16145939


Dayum, that’s a heck of a photo. Might be fun if some of those shapes, texture, color found their way into a Sub case.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

3WR said:


> Dayum, that’s a heck of a photo. Might be fun if some of those shapes, texture, color found their way into a Sub case.


Im not sure how Doc will feel about that, but from a purely fantasy world, I think that might look pretty damn cool!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Well, goodness, I wonder what the dial diameter is on one of them thar Antilles...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#2CrownTuesday


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> 3WR said:
> 
> 
> > Dayum, that’s a heck of a photo. Might be fun if some of those shapes, texture, color found their way into a Sub case.
> ...


I'm not sure how Doc feels about it, either.

On the one hand, the Subs concept has proven to be a very flexible foundation for a staggering amount of variation (45 different varieties, so far, not counting all the different versions which arise from date/no-date, DLC/stainless, and Oyster/BOR options). On the surface, it would seem like we CAN do whatever we want with them.

On the other - the Subs' roots are still in military-issue tool-watch tradition, which has led us away from frequently breaking boundaries with the Subs' designs. Other than the Dolphins, and to a lesser extent, the Vanguard, we've been pretty disciplined about sticking to that tradition. Those are the only Subs designs which didn't draw as heavily from iconic inspiration.

And, as it happens, the more tool-like and more traditional designs seem to sell better, within the Subs range. So I've looked to the Tropics and DevilRays as being the canvasses which better lend themselves to design exploration.



mconlonx said:


> Well, goodness, I wonder what the dial diameter is on one of them thar Antilles...


Dial? 30.5mm (the part itself, that is; the opening at the bottom of the internal bezel is 29mm). Crystal? 36.5mm (because internal bezel).

If you're thinking about a dial swap with one of the NTH Subs, don't. The Subs' dials are only 29mm. Though I think one of the Tropics' dials would fit in a Sub's case (32mm internal diameter available), the Subs' dials are too small for the Tropics case. There wouldn't be enough dial diameter to keep the Sub dial under the Tropic's bezel.

Fun fact - the DevilRay's dial is 30mm, with a 29mm opening. Perhaps that's why the DR seems smaller than the 2K1's, despite their almost identical diameter. The 2K1's dial opening is 33mm.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Though I think one of the Tropics' dials would fit in a Sub's case (32mm internal diameter available), the Subs' dials are too small for the Tropics case. There wouldn't be enough dial diameter to keep the Sub dial under the Tropic's bezel.
> 
> Fun fact - the DevilRay's dial is 30mm, with a 29mm opening. Perhaps that's why the DR seems smaller than the 2K1's, despite their almost identical diameter. The 2K1's dial opening is 33mm.


Actually, and on second thought, I don't know that a Tropics dial would fit in the Subs' case. I think the 1mm difference might mean the inner case wall (the dial opening, which is only 28mm on the Subs) would overlap the Antilles' or Azores' markers.

Also fun fact - when I was discussing what would become the "DevilFox" with Watch Wonderland, they initially sent me a draft render of an Azores dial and handset in the DevilRay case. 

I absolutely hated the idea, and told them we needed to stick to the basic "outline" of the DevilRay design.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Someone say Devil Ray?
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

kpjimmy said:


> Someone say Devil Ray?
> View attachment 16149154
> View attachment 16149156
> 
> ...


Mesh looks like a great pairing! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> Someone say Devil Ray?


Nay I say…for there are more Tropics for thee and me...plus a dog named Zee!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom









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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> Someone say Devil Ray?
> View attachment 16149154
> View attachment 16149156
> 
> ...


That white Devil Ray is the nicest version so far. Originally I was all about the Deep Six blue, but this white beats it hands-down! It is just a shame the case does not work for me on my wrist. 

I would love to see this dial in a Sub or 2K1.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> That white Devil Ray is the nicest version so far. Originally I was all about the Deep Six blue, but this white beats it hands-down! It is just a shame the case does not work for me on my wrist.
> 
> I would love to see this dial in a Sub or 2K1.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Ah yes...I was considering the LE blue, the white seemed just a bit meh off the Watch Gecko site, the grey chapter ring thing sorta put me off, and then these photos landed. Looks better IRL!

The white looks great in these photos and tbh I've never been a fan of mesh bracelets, but this just seems to work. 

Now just waiting for some real life photos of the WG blue version before I make a decision to pull the trigger...sigh

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

It's NTHursday right?


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> It's NTHursday right?


Yup. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Ah yes...I was considering the LE blue, the white seemed just a bit meh off the Watch Gecko site, the grey chapter ring thing sorta put me off, and then these photos landed. Looks better IRL!
> 
> The white looks great in these photos and tbh I've never been a fan of mesh bracelets, but this just seems to work.
> 
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Two random thinks about the DevilRays...

Marc from Long Island Watch once told me to always make more of the black version of any design, because black always sells the best. From what I've seen, the black often does sell the best, but not quite always, and it seems that with some designs, they were just made to be white. 

Melbourne watches are a good example. I think for most, or at least many of Sujain's designs, the white is the best-selling color.

Anyway, I'm happy people like the white design from the lads of Watch Gecko, and wish I personally got on better with white dials, because it is quite handsome.

Also...

When we made the original v.1 DevilRays back in 2018, turquoise was the best selling colorway, and orange was the worst. 

At the time, Kaj from Serious Watches told me that orange dials generally don't sell well in the Netherlands, despite (or in their case, apparently because of) orange being the Dutch Royal Family's color.

This time around, for some reason, the orange seems to be slightly outselling the turquoise, surprising both me and Kaj.

The only explanation I can think of, and it's kind of a weak, "connect the dots" sort of reasoning is this - it seems suddenly there are three other brands making fairly cheap Doxa homages. I wonder if the existence of and interest in those other three homages has sparked wider interest in Doxa, which is known primarily for its orange dials, and if that in turn has led people to being more interested in the orange DevilRay.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Two random thinks about the DevilRays...
> 
> Marc from Long Island Watch once told me to always make more of the black version of any design, because black always sells the best. From what I've seen, the black often does sell the best, but not quite always, and it seems that with some designs, they were just made to be white.
> 
> ...


I've been in the market and seriously looked at the Doxas for a few weeks but nothing was coming my way. I was willing to shell out the bucks but all my searches were dead ends or the seller wanted a lot and wouldn't negotiate. I am a hard negotiator at times. I walk away a lot and for this instance, I walked away from a lot of Doxa convos. 

Then I got to try the DR v2 and it was better than I expected. I knew it was going to be chonky for my small 6.25 ish-inch wrists but I went for it anyways. Hell, if I can wear a Magrette MPP, I can wear this. Plus the l2l was perfect IMO. 

Then the color. When the gen 1 DR's came out and had a "white" version, which didn't jive with me. It was more of an alumium. Much like the black is a grey in V1 and V2. However, I am likeing the look and evolution on the Devil Fox versions. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> It's NTHursday right?


Not for me…for me…IT’S #NTHresherThursday!


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

And, I'm a day early for Phannum Phrydae, but....


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Some very up close and personal shots of my Amphion Vintage Gilt.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TGI #NTHursday !!!!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday










"Does this look big on my wrist? I think lt may be a touch large..."










The Preciousssss...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TGI…DR DAY!


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Lab4Us said:


> TGI…DR DAY!
> View attachment 16153018
> 
> 
> ...


Love this combination, I think I need to get a white rubber strap for some of my white divers (maybe the Santa Fe)

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

10,000th post (for this thread)!

You guys are awesome.

Here's a watch:


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

and 1

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Why can't you guys send me stuff like this?

















Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, my watch. Forgot to post this pic from earlier.










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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Why can't you guys send me stuff like this?
> 
> View attachment 16153829
> View attachment 16153830
> ...


Jeff Bezos is sus. There, I said it.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Why can't you guys send me stuff like this?


🤷‍♂️…thought buying five more NTH after the first and posting four or five NTH wearing pics almost daily across WUS WAS saying this?

I kid, I kid…kind of…
😎


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Looks like some of you forgot that it’s Flieger Friday. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Looks like some of you forgot that it’s Flieger Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoops. I went with the 5610 today.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Why can't you guys send me stuff like this?
> 
> View attachment 16153829
> View attachment 16153830
> ...


Because then you would be in a great mood too often, so we would not get to read your rants.....and your rants are good reads




But I will say I have always admired brown watches from afar and been intrigued by the hour hand of the Barracuda and similar watches. I doubted the wearability of a brown watch, and the hands left me unsure in internet pics. I even checked out some similar watches (though black dial heritage models) at a local AD, but I did not get the warm fuzzy. Too thick for a non-chrono, at least IMO.

I bought my Barracuda brown as a test watch, with plans to flip it after I decided how I felt about the dial/bezel color and hands.

After wearing it, I am a huge fan, and it became a keeper! It looks great, wears very well, and the size is perfect!


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Why can't you guys send me stuff like this?


Obviously someone did. What, do you need your leg humped twice this week?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Obviously someone did. What, do you need your leg humped twice this week?


I do have two legs, so that would even things out.

Just sayin'...

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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I do have two legs, so that would even things out.
> 
> Just sayin'...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Whoops. I went with the 5610 today.
> View attachment 16154001


You know, if you replace the text hashtag with "#JustSeikoThings", that pic will become the perfect troll photo to post in every WUS thread (especially if brand specific)


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> I do have two legs, so that would even things out.
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Certainly don’t have three.

Just sayin…


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Rhorya said:


> Certainly don’t have three.
> 
> Just sayin…


But then again... maybe he does...

Just sayin...















Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This thread is epic


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Forgot the #fridaynightlume shot. Who can name all of the watches?










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

rpm1974 said:


> Looks like some of you forgot that it’s Flieger Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wore mine yesterday 
I didn't forget man. 

Sent from my Note 20 Ultra


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#SwiftsureSaturday


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Had this on my wrist for a week now. The rest of the collection are definitely jealous.








Now I realise I have to change the date after looking at the picture.... oops.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

gavindavie said:


> Had this on my wrist for a week now. The rest of the collection are definitely jealous.
> View attachment 16155168
> 
> Now I realise I have to change the date after looking at the picture.... oops.


Lol, gotta love those 30 day (or less) months!


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Lab4Us said:


> Lol, gotta love those 30 day (or less) months!


Exactly why I grabbed a no-date the last two mornings.
Doughboy digs it.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

It’s almost noon! Do you know where your Swiftsure is?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Polar White Barracuda
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Still enjoying this...










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#MagnificantMonday


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Still enjoying this...
> 
> View attachment 16158584
> 
> ...


I don’t know if you people know how big a compliment this is…

-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

rpm1974 said:


> I don’t know if you people know how big a compliment this is…
> 
> -Rusty
> 
> ...


Sure we do…the Padawan has become the Jedi!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> I don’t know if you people know how big a compliment this is…
> 
> -Rusty
> 
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...

Apparently the apocalypse has started, according to some, since about 6 hours ago, when Facebook, Instagram, and Whatsapp all went down?

Hope you all got your hunter-gatherer merit-badges back in the day, and remember your training. Red on black, okay to pack. Black on red, get a happy meal instead.

Or something like that.

Look for me in the gathering outside the walled compound. I'll be the one in the funny hat.










On the real though, about brand owners wearing other brands' watches...

First, it is a compliment, full stop, when it happens. And even I'm not immune to catching the vapors when a brand owner I respect and admire posts a wristie of an NTH.

Sergio DiRenzo, one of the best designers in the game (IMO), was full of praise for the DevilRay, but put his money where his mouth is recently, plunking down a few hundies for the Watch Gecko White.










Secondly, whereas some (many?) brand owners will have diverse collections, because like most peeps here, they're enthusiasts first, business owners second, I don't, because I'm really not. I sold off all my watches from other brands, even my friends' brands, years ago. I just figured I owned too many watches, and it didn't make sense for me to own other brands, imagining myself having to explain to someone why I wasn't wearing one of my own (even though I think it's only happened once, if that).

So, Rusty ain't blowing smoke when he says I paid him a compliment, and hopefully everyone knows I don't BS about these things. I really am enjoying it still. I'd have made it with a simpler bracelet, and male end-links, but other than that, there's nothing about it I'd change. It's just a really well-designed, well-made, really versatile and comfortable piece.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not even sure if the one in the back is a watch. The one in the lower left has me stumped.



rpm1974 said:


> Forgot the #fridaynightlume shot. Who can name all of the watches?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Not even sure if the one in the back is a watch. The one in the lower left has me stumped.


Front left is a tough one. I’ll wait and see if someone else can figure it out. 

The one in the back is actually a watch I received as a giveaway on WUS a little while before we started working together. That’s the only hint I’ll give you on that one. I’ll post a better lume shot after you’ve mulled it over a bit. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

L


rpm1974 said:


> Front left is a tough one. I’ll wait and see if someone else can figure it out.
> 
> The one in the back is actually a watch I received as a giveaway on WUS a little while before we started working together. That’s the only hint I’ll give you on that one. I’ll post a better lume shot after you’ve mulled it over a bit.
> 
> ...


Any of them modded?


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> So...
> 
> Apparently the apocalypse has started, according to some, since about 6 hours ago, when Facebook, Instagram, and Whatsapp all went down?
> 
> ...


One of the reasons I looked at DiRenzo watches was reading a high compliment about Sergio’s work from Doc. That’s why I got this bad boy, which is much more beautiful on the wrist than in this crappy pic. Now that I have a DR, I’ve got perhaps the best of both designers (IMO) and quite pleased about that. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> L
> 
> 
> Any of them modded?


Nope. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Meteora?


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Front left is a tough one. I’ll wait and see if someone else can figure it out.
> 
> The one in the back is actually a watch I received as a giveaway on WUS a little while before we started working together. That’s the only hint I’ll give you on that one. I’ll post a better lume shot after you’ve mulled it over a bit.


Judging by the lack of lume at 3,6,9 my guess is something like the Norqain Freedom 60 Chronograph but with a triangle lume on the external bezel at the 12.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

ChrWard C63?


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Meteora?


Nope. Chris found labeled that one correctly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Saswatch said:


> Judging by the lack of lume at 3,6,9 my guess is something like the Norqain Freedom 60 Chronograph but with a triangle lume on the external bezel at the 12.
> 
> View attachment 16159716


Nope. But you’re on the right track.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> ChrWard C63?


Nope. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

rpm1974 said:


> Front left is a tough one. I’ll wait and see if someone else can figure it out.
> 
> The one in the back is actually a watch I received as a giveaway on WUS a little while before we started working together. That’s the only hint I’ll give you on that one. I’ll post a better lume shot after you’ve mulled it over a bit.
> 
> ...


Maratac sterile dial diver.... looks a lot like mine lume wise...simples 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> The one in the back is actually a watch I received as a giveaway on WUS a little while before we started working together. That’s the only hint I’ll give you on that one. I’ll post a better lume shot after you’ve mulled it over a bit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Casio AMW-320 ana-digi?


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Maratac sterile dial diver.... looks a lot like mine lume wise...simples
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Guess again.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#2Krown2u3sday


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Need a 10 ton crane to carry the awesomeness.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> Need a 10 ton crane to carry the awesomeness.
> View attachment 16160977


....or I could equate to a ton of ****...just saying  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> ....or I could equate to a ton of ****...just saying
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


No no. _Ten_ tons. 
And if you need, I've got a thirty ton here too.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Casio AMW-320 ana-digi?


Bingo.

Now about that one in the front left...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> View attachment 16161605


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> One of the reasons I looked at DiRenzo watches was reading a high compliment about Sergio’s work from Doc. That’s why I got this bad boy, which is much more beautiful on the wrist than in this crappy pic. Now that I have a DR, I’ve got perhaps the best of both designers (IMO) and quite pleased about that.
> View attachment 16159637
> 
> 
> ...


There are a number of brand owners who are truly great designers. The three who are always top of mind for me are Chip Yuen from Aevig, Sergio DiRenzo, and Phil Rodenbeck from Visitor. Each is interesting in his own right. 

Sergio works full time as an architect, so one would hope he'd be a good designer. I'm pretty sure Phil studied design in school, if not automotive design, specifically. I think he told me he used to work in the automotive industry.

I must be a $hltty friend, because I can't remember if Chip told me what he studied in school, or what he did before starting Aevig. I've always said he's the best "natural" designer in the business, and I still believe it. I think he could design anything, and it would be awesome.

One aspect of watch design that always interests me, either in its obvious presence, or in its absence, is whether or not a brand can develop and maintain a signature "design language". I think it's something that can cut both ways, as far as its value goes. 

Starting with the DRZ_02, Segio obviously has. There's no mistaking a DiRenzo. I'd say Phil also has. 

It's a little harder to connect the dots from one Aevig model to the next. The Huldra, Corvid, and Valkyr are all solid designs, but if you removed the logo and showed them all to someone who didn't know the brand, I doubt they'd instantly know the same guy designed all three.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> There are a number of brand owners who are truly great designers. The three who are always top of mind for me are Chip Yuen from Aevig, Sergio DiRenzo, and Phil Rodenbeck from Visitor. Each is interesting in his own right.


Well there you go.... the things you learn when you lurk.

Have an Aevig Huldra, had heard of the DiRenzo from somewhere, but had never heard of the Visitor. And to be honest, it's not the sort of brand name that would make me stop and check off hand. 

Had a look.... pretty interesting case design, quirky hands and unusual clasp. Shame they only seem to come in date versions.

I'll add them to the bookmarks page....

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Red PeeKay said:


> Well there you go.... the things you learn when you lurk.
> 
> Have an Aevig Huldra, had heard of the DiRenzo from somewhere, but had never heard of the Visitor. And to be honest, it's not the sort of brand name that would make me stop and check off hand.
> 
> ...


No date there.
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Nazario Azzurro 










When you’re waiting for the coffee to brew, sometimes you’ve just gotta take a wristie. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> And, here we go again...


Already on Watch Gauge's list for the blue dial.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Several times in the past I've been on the verge of buying both an Aevig and a Visitor. I love the "design theme" (for lack of the correct term) of both, and in particular, I love the way that Visitor pushes the envelope with unconventional but appealing features.

I've never gone so far as to buy either, though, because I know that I'd just be buying them out of general appreciation for the design, but that they'd almost never be worn. I already have several watch box queens like this, watches that I look at admiringly every morning as I reach for one of the two or three watches that I almost always wear daily.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> No date there.
> View attachment 16162642
> View attachment 16162645
> 
> ...


Those hands are wild.
Then again, so is the case.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Several times in the past I've been on the verge of buying both an Aevig and a Visitor. I love the "design theme" (for lack of the correct term) of both, and in particular, I love the way that Visitor pushes the envelope with unconventional but appealing features.
> 
> I've never gone so far as to buy either, though, because I know that I'd just be buying them out of general appreciation for the design, but that they'd almost never be worn. I already have several watch box queens like this, watches that I look at admiringly every morning as I reach for one of the two or three watches that I almost always wear daily.


I go back and forth on my feelings about "watch box queens". I've kept and still have some watches I rarely wear, just because I like how they look, and think I'll wear them eventually, enough to warrant keeping them. So long as they're not overly expensive, where's the harm?

On the other hand, when my collection feels like it's getting too big, and it's been too long since I've worn a watch, I start to feel the urge to sell.

I own a couple of Seikos I rarely wear, but keep because I think I might someday want to have them in hand to look at as references while designing a new case. There are a couple Lew & Hueys I have just because I know they wouldn't be worth enough to justify my effort in selling them, and they'd be all but impossible to replace if I later realized I shouldn't have sold them.


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## KevJohn (Sep 17, 2020)

Anyone have experience with the beads of rice bracelet? Is it comfortable/well made? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> Fresh from the Photog...
> 
> View attachment 16145939
> View attachment 16145941


Hey @Doc ; are these going to be available at Serious Watches or are they Watchgauge exclusives?


Sent from a van down by the river…


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

KevJohn said:


> Anyone have experience with the beads of rice bracelet? Is it comfortable/well made? Thanks in advance!


Yes and yes. Incredibly comfortable.


----------



## FavouriteSon (Feb 8, 2020)

I was really into the Visitor Linden for a while, but the white, my first choice, has been sold out. I almost talked myself into the black, so the date would be a little less intrusive. 










I eventually went a slightly more conventional/conservative route










But who knows, maybe if someday the white is ever back in stock


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

I was tempted to get an Aevig Valkyr based on its funky but cool ‘70s looks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Hey @Doc ; are these going to be available at Serious Watches or are they Watchgauge exclusives?
> 
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river…


Both. All retailers should have some for sale.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

KevJohn said:


> Anyone have experience with the beads of rice bracelet? Is it comfortable/well made? Thanks in advance!


Yes and yes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KevJohn said:


> Anyone have experience with the beads of rice bracelet? Is it comfortable/well made? Thanks in advance!


Our customers generally report that they are pleased with the BOR bracelets. They've been described as being superior to the stock bracelets of a well-known Swiss brand whose watch sells for $2k.

Take it for what it's worth. Asking here, or in the NTH fans FB group, you're unlikely to hear many, if any complaints. Ask around the forum, you'll likely get some troll running us down.

I found this review on Serious Watches website. It's in Italian. 

I thought it had something to do with a boy made of broccoli, but apparently not...

*


https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-sub-beads-of-rice-bracelet


















*


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> Both. All retailers should have some for sale.


Thanks Doc. 


Sent from a van down by the river…


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## KevJohn (Sep 17, 2020)

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Talking watchmaking...










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

KevJohn said:


> Anyone have experience with the beads of rice bracelet? Is it comfortable/well made? Thanks in advance!


Very comfortable and looks great. Also have an Uncle Seiko BoR on my Tuna which is great but IMHO the Nth is nicer. 

Here they both are for a kinda comparison.























Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

FavouriteSon said:


> I was really into the Visitor Linden for a while, but the white, my first choice, has been sold out. I almost talked myself into the black, so the date would be a little less intrusive.
> 
> View attachment 16163078
> 
> ...


And there you go... that white looks really great... but for that date window

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ah, the beads of rice… almost as good as a jubilee. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Not the latest and greatest, but I like it.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHresherNTHursday


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

My first (and still favorite) NTH model on an #NTHursday










Sent from a van down by the river…


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday !!!!

Put it on a new cork strap, something different


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I dig that look with them together. 

I've always wanted to try a cork strap, never got around to it though. I'm sure it's not, but when I hear "cork" I think fragile.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I dig that look with them together.
> 
> I've always wanted to try a cork strap, never got around to it though. I'm sure it's not, but when I hear "cork" I think fragile.


Thanks!

This is my first one, I had the same concerns as you. I will report back after some wear.


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## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

Hey @docvail,

I just picked up a lightly used Antilles Cointreau. I used to have the OG champagne dial, but moved it a couple years ago, regretfully. Really like the improved bracelet and new dial color of the Cointreau!

Had a question about the internal bezel: I noticed the action is very smooth when rotating and I was wondering if it is supposed to 'ratchet' a bit more, or whether it was like that on the original one too? I could be getting my wires crossed with another watch I owned, so please forgive me if that's the case.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fiskadoro said:


> Hey @docvail,
> 
> I just picked up a lightly used Antilles Cointreau. I used to have the OG champagne dial, but moved it a couple years ago, regretfully. Really like the improved bracelet and new dial color of the Cointreau!
> 
> Had a question about the internal bezel: I noticed the action is very smooth when rotating and I was wondering if it is supposed to 'ratchet' a bit more, or whether it was like that on the original one too? I could be getting my wires crossed with another watch I owned, so please forgive me if that's the case.


What you feel is as it should be.

My vendor made some very minor tweaks to the bezel assembly for the v.2 Tropics (this year's production), but the difference people would feel should be negligible. They never had as distinctive or pronounced a sound or feel between "clicks" when compared to our external bezel models. It's possible to not even notice the indents when turning.


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## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

docvail said:


> What you feel is as it should be.
> 
> My vendor made some very minor tweaks to the bezel assembly for the v.2 Tropics (this year's production), but the difference people would feel should be negligible. They never had as distinctive or pronounced a sound or feel between "clicks" when compared to our external bezel models. It's possible to not even notice the indents when turning.


Perfect. Thanks for the speedy response, Chris. Watch is a real beaut!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#NTHursday


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

fiskadoro said:


> Hey @docvail,
> 
> I just picked up a lightly used Antilles Cointreau. I used to have the OG champagne dial, but moved it a couple years ago, regretfully. Really like the improved bracelet and new dial color of the Cointreau!
> 
> Had a question about the internal bezel: I noticed the action is very smooth when rotating and I was wondering if it is supposed to 'ratchet' a bit more, or whether it was like that on the original one too? I could be getting my wires crossed with another watch I owned, so please forgive me if that's the case.



Mine feels smooth, especially compared to some other brand internal bezels I have owned before


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone else watching the news reporting on these cargo ships getting backed up at sea, unable to dock and unload?

They're saying it's becoming a real problem for businesses waiting on goods for the holiday shopping season.

Man, did I call it or what?



docvail said:


> That article, and most like it, tend to focus on the logistics involved in getting finished goods from one point to another. But more troubling is a similar article I read not long ago, which pointed out that the log-jam in international shipping is creating lots of delays in getting raw materials.
> 
> You can't get plumbing fixtures from your factory in China if the factory can't get the raw materials they need from wherever.
> 
> *The article predicted we'd see MASSIVE product shortages and price inflation, by the end of this year, just when the holiday shopping season kicks into high gear.*


I was reading more about sea shipping logistics recently, and the history of the sea shipping business going back to the American Revolution, and how it's an overlooked component of national defense and sovereignty. Apparently it's a good thing for powerful countries to maintain and support domestic shipping companies, if they want to stay powerful.

Funny how you can find such a boring topic interesting when it suddenly becomes a global crisis.

One of the points made in some article I read is that because sea shipping has always been such a low-margin / high-volume business, shipping companies have relentlessly focused on finding efficiencies and "economies of scale", resulting in modern cargo ships becoming larger than aircraft carriers (which are longer than most skyscrapers are tall), and smaller cargo ships basically disappearing.

To put their size into its proper context...
























The article made the point that while shipping companies can be more efficient and profitable when they shift to larger vessels, the ports and our over-land transportation infrastructure (rails, trucks, etc) aren't any more able to handle the extra volume when it lands all at once, even if they run 24/7, which is happening. 

The ports need to be expanded, which is a time-consuming and expensive operation. We can't just snap our fingers and add more rail lines, or just add more train cars to the existing lines, without creating other problems. Apparently there are problems in trucking, too - fewer drivers, higher gas prices, deteriorating roads, more down-time, etc.

Truck drivers are showing up at ports to get cargo containers which can't be reached, because those containers are buried under and behind other containers awaiting their respective drivers to arrive and take them away. It's a huge game of Tetris, except in reverse.










It's like - imagine they made the 2 liter soda bottle a 6 liter bottle, but the size of the opening stayed the same, as did your refrigerator, and they simultaneously did away with single-serving bottles and cans. Or imagine if there were no more glass jars with metal lids, and all your strawberry jam came in a coffee can. 

Yeah, they're being "more efficient", but you can't pour the soda any faster, and you might not have any place to store it while also keeping it cold. Most families don't want or need a restaurant-size can of strawberry jam.

There were other factors mentioned - outsourced / off-shored manufacturing, just-in-time manufacturing, etc. The author suggested that more companies are now looking into how they can bring that manufacturing back in-country.

I've looked into it, for watches. I just spoke to a potential case manufacturing partner last week. Getting just that one part, the case, CNC-machined, here in the US, is likely to double-to-quadruple the cost of that part, maybe more, not including the up-front tooling and set-up costs. 

And of course, if you're making the case here, then you'd be doing assembly here, which is likely to raise your assembly costs 5x-10x per unit.

A case, while potentially complex, is super-simple compared to an exponentially more complex assembly of parts, like a steel bracelet or clasp. I wonder what the labor costs would do to the production cost of smaller (and usually cheaper) parts, like hands and dials, if we wanted to get those made here. 

It's easy to think or say, "meh, it's all automated manufacturing, so it's cheap," but it really isn't. Some of the processes can be automated, but not all. And automated manufacturing processes still require up-front tooling, set-up, and programming of the machines doing the work.

The lowest figure I've been quoted (from that vendor last week), just to CNC-machine the cases, is $5k-$10k up front. Most quotes were in the tens of thousands.

Applied indices are soldered on by human hands. While you can pad-print the lume onto a printed dial (with printed, not applied indices), the lume on hands, applied indices, and any sloped surface (like our bezel inserts) is still applied by hand. I think the dial feet are soldered on, maybe by hand, but I'm not sure. Maybe that's automated. 

All of the brushed finishes on every part - done by hand. Chris Wiegand from Lum-Tec told me we can get media-blasted or decent-enough polished finishes from an automated machine, but a machine can't get anywhere close to the quality of the brushed finishes we're getting from suppliers in China, at any price. That has to be done by hand.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I've looked into it, for watches. I just spoke to a potential case manufacturing partner last week. Getting just that one part, the case, CNC-machined, here in the US, is likely to double-to-quadruple the cost of that part, maybe more, not including the up-front tooling and set-up costs.


So, your post was obviously much longer, with a lot of valid ideas to unpack. I actually read obsessively about macroeconomics but rarely talk about it, since it bores the crap out of people... until stuff starts to break. To me, it's like wanting to understand the weather. We all got caught in the flood in 2008. Now I read everything I can find in an effort to know whether or not I should worry about the current storm clouds on the horizon.

Since we're on the topic:

1) Re: your quote above, consider that median wages in China have grown 500% since the 2008 crisis. Even China is actually offshoring their lower-skilled work to Vietnam or Thailand now. And you've touched on the increasing costs and counterparty risk of long supply chains. As a side note, I read an article this week that a trucking company in Texas is paying $14,000 per week (that's not a typo) for truck drivers.

I know it seems like a distant possibility that it will become economically viable to make things in the US any time soon, but I believe that it's much closer than you think. Big companies will start the onshoring trend, which will lead to efficiencies of scale that smaller businesses can leverage. We WILL solve our debt problem by inflating it away (that is a simple mathematical fact at this point). The result will be that real (not nominal) US wages will fall vs. the rest of the world. One of the only good effects of these two things combined will be a US manufacturing resurgence. Bookmark this post and check back with me in 10 years. I'll bet a new NTH watch of your choice or mine on it. If I'm right, it will be fully "Made in the USA" by then, with the possible exception of the movement.

ETA: For us to devalue our currency, the dollar must stop being the world's reserve currency. As long as it is, other countries' central banks will be compelled to keep buying dollars with their local currencies to maintain exchange rate equilibrium.

That said, China is going to help "us" (meaning our politicians) out with this one. I hear people talk about how "China will crash the dollar by selling all their US debt." Nope. In reality, China has already been a slow but consistent net seller of US debt since 2014. 

1) If China is selling, who's buying? 
Short answer: The Federal Reserve, in part.

2) What has China been doing with the proceeds of those sales?
Short answer: Buying an estimated 28,000 tons of gold that could be used to back the Yuan as the world's new reserve currency.

Food for thought.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Dudes - that’s all way too heavy for a Friday. Save that stuff for a Tuesday or something. 










It’s fun watch Friday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#FunWatchFriday!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Another interesting point (doc may have hit it, and I overlooked). As cargo ships and tankers get larger, deeper water ports are necessary to dock them. There are ports all around the US/Canada coastline, but as ships get larger the number of ports that can accommodate their size reduces. This forces more freight through fewer entry ways, exacerbating the issue(s)

Now I am off to figure out which fun watch to wear!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Great sunrise here in Delco this morning.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#FWF!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Former Merchant Marine Engineer. The three limiting factors for how big a ship can get are; Suez Canal, Panama Canal, and depth of ports at major cities ports of call.

As ships size grows wider and higher, the port unloading cranes get taller and have to reach longer. These cranes then need a wider footprint to be stable, so that limits how many cranes you can put side by side to load/offload a ship.

Bigger container numbers means that you need acreage to stack and store the containers, but to move them requires a truck and dolly (the rig the container sits on to get pulled by a truck) for each one.

So lets say there are 20 ships coming in, each with 24,000 TEU’s (containers) on board. So you need 480,000 dollys and trucks and drivers.

After a while you realize how many trucks and empty dolly’s you need available to work a port looking to off load 60 ships.

And that’s not accounting for all the other ships at other ports all across the country, now factor that by all the ports in the world.

As ships size grows, so does their freeboard area above the water which acts like a giant sail surface for the smallest amount of wind. This is exactly what happened to the ship that got stuck in the Suez Canal. Wasn’t the first but it was one of the longest stuck.

These super large ships don’t go fast, but are pretty much made to only go in a straight line. At slow speeds they need tug/tenders and use of bow thrusters, and once these behemoths get moving they don’t stop quickly.

Now add to all of this, refrigerated containers. I was a “reefer” engineer on a few ships. That means I am the one guy who has to check all the refrigerator containers for proper operation of their refrigeration units, that they are all within their required temp readings (each reefer unit has a recorded temp chart showing the high and low limits allowed and if there was ever an out of spec deviation, when and how long it occurred). I have to make these checks accurately and do it for all the reefer units. I have to do this before they are loaded, then I have to make sure that from the time they are disconnected from the truck to loaded on the ship and plugged in is as short a time as possible.

Only the first two layers of containers on the deck of a container ship are dedicated for the reefer units due to the length of the electrical cords to plug them into ships power. We dont run the propane engines on those units while at sea.

So as the reefer mechanic I might be responsible for hundreds of reefer units. These need to be constantly checked for temp basically 24/7 until they are off loaded.

Sleep?! Not much on those ships. And if one of those units goes down, im there to get it fixed and back in operation as fast as possible. In all hours, in all weather. The first level above deck isn’t so bad, that second level though. You ever notice how high one of those is?

Now, some of those reefer units are also time sensitive which means from the time they are packed to the time they are unpacked there is only a number if weeks before spoiling. Millions and millions of dollars of product could go bad. Now imagine the losses piling up as these ships sit for days and weeks longer than they were expecting to waiting to unload. This is why you will see shortages and rising costs.

Cheers!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I wore my Orthos & Antilles this week, so I had to change it up for FunWatchFriday... @rpm1974 even inspired me to go for FunShoeFriday!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> I wore my Orthos & Antilles this week, so I had to change it up for FunWatchFriday... @rpm1974 even inspired me to go for FunShoeFriday!
> 
> View attachment 16167613
> 
> View attachment 16167614


G-Shock, Multi Band 6 AND tough solar…FTW!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We need to steer clear of discussing politics on the forum, as it's against the rules.

That said - while on the one hand, I'd think machinists would start out well above the minimum starting wage, on the other hand, the supplier I spoke to did say they were having trouble finding good people to do less skilled assembly work, at obviously lower wages.

To paraphrase what I was told, "we can't find anyone in their 20's willing to show up, be trained, and actually work."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> So, your post was obviously much longer, with a lot of valid ideas to unpack. I actually read obsessively about macroeconomics but rarely talk about it, since it bores the crap out of people... until stuff starts to break. To me, it's like wanting to understand the weather. We all got caught in the flood in 2008. Now I read everything I can find in an effort to know whether or not I should worry about the current storm clouds on the horizon.
> 
> Since we're on the topic:
> 
> ...


Again, we need to steer clear of political discussions here, per the forum's rules.

That said...

I've told this story many times, but here it is again - when I visited vendors in mainland China with my OEM, in 2018, he told me that within 10 years, most watch production would be moved to Vietnam or Thailand - where labor rates are cheaper.

The cost of living in industrialized parts of China has gotten so high that the factory owners have to have dormitories for workers they recruit from the interior (farm lands). They can't pay the factory workers enough to rent apartments in Shenzhen or Dong Guan, so the factories have on-site dormitories set up.

As strange as it sounds - we're approaching a day when you'll be proud of a watch made in China, if it means it wasn't made in Vietnam or Thailand. When I was thinking about it in 2018, my thinking was, in a nutshell, that I'm now in a race to build my business and brand as quickly as I can, so that we can keep manufacturing in China, even if it means others doing their manufacturing in Vietnam or Thailand will be under-pricing us.

I mean...it works for the Swiss.

At the same time, though...

I started to think about the whole "bringing it back" thing 5-6 years ago, when I was getting increasingly frustrated with Chinese manufacturing. Like you've alluded to, I foresaw that if wages and other costs of doing business in China keep going up, while Americans' real wages keep falling, eventually we might get to a point where it really does make more sense to do watch manufacturing here.

Dan and I stared looking into it in earnest in early 2020 (pre-covid). I called and spoke to at least a half a dozen potential vendors here, and we visited two in person. There's a reason so few watch manufacturers have anything made here in the US. None of the potential contract manufacturers want the work, it seems, because they're not really set up for it.

We looked into the costs of CNC machines, and robots for automation. The machines we'd need would cost over $500k, but that's not the big challenge. We can finance their costs, or raise money. The bigger challenge is the set-up, tooling, and programming costs. Someone has to set the machines up, create the tooling, and do the programming. For each new part, that's a new round of those charges.

You're looking at potentially tens of thousands of dollars in up-front costs (not counting the cost to acquire the machines), before you make a single part. Imagine a microbrand looking to make 500 pieces of a case, and having to front $50k in prep costs. That adds $100 per unit to the production cost, for just that one part.

Most of the potential vendors I spoke to really didn't even want to discuss what we wanted to do. The two we met with never even bothered to give us a proposal. They don't want to get involved in making consumer products, because they can't be competitive on costs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Another interesting point (doc may have hit it, and I overlooked). As cargo ships and tankers get larger, deeper water ports are necessary to dock them. There are ports all around the US/Canada coastline, but as ships get larger the number of ports that can accommodate their size reduces. This forces more freight through fewer entry ways, exacerbating the issue(s)
> 
> Now I am off to figure out which fun watch to wear!


Yes, I read that too. I did touch on it, albeit tangentially. It's the "bottle gets bigger, but the opening stays the same" analogy. 

They can make the boats bigger, but it's causing problems at ports, and with overland logistics.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Again, we need to steer clear of political discussions here, per the forum's rules.
> 
> That said...
> 
> ...


To build on your "made in China" will add value thought, it already happened with Japan. In the 80's and 90's Japanese watches were associated with cheap watches (and everything else).

30 years later Japanese watches are respected and steadily going upscale with major success.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> To build on your "made in China" will add value thought, it already happened with Japan. In the 80's and 90's Japanese watches were associated with cheap watches (and everything else).
> 
> 30 years later Japanese watches are respected and steadily going upscale with major success.


And, in fact, some G-Shocks are outsourced to Thailand…I have a couple…


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> I wore my Orthos & Antilles this week, so I had to change it up for FunWatchFriday... @rpm1974 even inspired me to go for FunShoeFriday!
> 
> View attachment 16167613
> 
> View attachment 16167614


I dig it! I've come to the realization that squares are crack... my most recent fix. Only three days old.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> .As strange as it sounds - we're approaching a day when you'll be proud of a watch made in China, if it means it wasn't made in Vietnam or Thailand. When I was thinking about it in 2018, my thinking was, in a nutshell, that I'm now in a race to build my business and brand as quickly as I can, so that we can keep manufacturing in China, even if it means others doing their manufacturing in Vietnam or Thailand will be under-pricing us.


There was a time here Downunder, when I was a little fella, when made in Japan = junk. 

The top selling cars were either Ford or Holden (read GM) and appliances were either locally made (good stuff), European made (luxury item) or Japanese (cheap junk).

Fast forward a couple of decades and the top selling car in Oz is Toyota. Suddenly Japanese = quality and value, locally made no longer exists, European made = niche luxury item and good old US of A made? Expensive middle of the road and in no way comparable to Japanese manufactured.

Now you look for made in Japan as opposed to China or Asia. Some US stuff (I'm onto my second Jeep Grand Cherokee) is getting better but your dollar kills us and all our manufacturing has disappeared offshore. 

So it's no surprise that over time a lot of the Chinese stuff had improved as they have improved their processes. Mind you we now live in a high turnover, short life span, disposable economy so a lot of stuff is built to look good but not last. 

Not sure what the answer is... but suspect we as a species are on the slippery slope to extinction....

At least I won't be around too have to live through it...

Boy, it's all getting a bit depressing... think I might have to go and buy another watch...I reckon I'll have to stop when I own more watches than I'm years in age..oh oh Better start getting selective...I ain't no spring chicken anymore! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I dig it! I've come to the realization that squares are crack... my most recent fix. Only three days old.
> View attachment 16167916


Inorite?!?!?!

Beginning of 2021 I owned one modern G and zero NTH

Now the two together account for 7 of my watches


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Inorite?!?!?!
> 
> Beginning of 2021 I owned one modern G and zero NTH
> 
> Now the two together account for 7 of my watches


So I've got two 10 slot watch boxes...

One of them, top row is all NTH. Azores, Sauro, Swiftsure, Vino Rosso, Tikuna. Bottom row, all G's. 5610(the bastard responsible for the square addiction), B5000(blue), B5000(Tron), black GM2100, green GM2100.

Damn this addictive personality of mine!

Edit: photo, cuz why not?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#FWFtoFWS


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> #FWFtoFWS
> 
> View attachment 16168930
> 
> ...


So bright.....


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

I gotta go back and read up but I got a seiko SPB143 in yesterday and it too has a steel bezel

It’s an excellent feature and it’s like aluminum bezels that I adore but even better

Love that part of the nth design.

I contemplate the trade in option cause I’m still thinking of that blue swiftsure…….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> I gotta go back and read up but I got a seiko SPB143 in yesterday and it too has a steel bezel
> 
> It’s an excellent feature and it’s like aluminum bezels that I adore but even better
> 
> ...


SPB147 here, agree, nice watch for the price.

It does make me appreciate the VFM m NTH's offer even more though

There is a Swiftsure in the trade section here on WUS. I tried, but the GS I offered was too small for the NTH owner. Give it a look


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> SPB147 here, agree, nice watch for the price.
> 
> It does make me appreciate the VFM m NTH's offer even more though
> 
> There is a Swiftsure in the trade section here on WUS. I tried, but the GS I offered was too small for the NTH owner. Give it a look


A blue one? I’ll give it a look I suppose

I was gonna see if nth had a used blue swiftsure and email them about trade value estimate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KevJohn (Sep 17, 2020)

I’m thinking of ordering a Nacken on beads of rice. It’ll be my first bor, is anyone interested in trading their oyster bracelet for a bor if I don’t take to it? Thanks!


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

KevJohn said:


> I’m thinking of ordering a Nacken on beads of rice. It’ll be my first bor, is anyone interested in trading their oyster bracelet for a bor if I don’t take to it? Thanks!


If you get stuck I might be open to it. Have a BoR on my Santa Cruz and can't be stuffed swapping it to and fro with the Tikuna. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Lab4Us said:


> And, in fact, some G-Shocks are outsourced to Thailand…I have a couple…


Exhibit A and B (was time to charge up with LED charger)…
First, arguably the most famous G-Shock, the King…purchased from Japanese Domestic Market (JDM), however “Made in Thailand”. Followed by another well known GST-S110-1ACR, imported from JDM but “Cased in Thailand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> There was a time here Downunder, when I was a little fella, when made in Japan = junk.
> 
> The top selling cars were either Ford or Holden (read GM) and appliances were either locally made (good stuff), European made (luxury item) or Japanese (cheap junk).
> 
> ...


A few months back, I popped into the car dealership where my friend works as the service and parts department manager.

Parked in front of his desk was a new Chevy Trailblazer, which I commented on, as it was nice-looking. By which I mean, it looked like it was designed in Japan, or at least Asia, with lots of creases and lines in the body work.

He said, "yeah, it's nice looking. There's just one problem with it," opening the door to show me the plaque riveted to the frame, and pointing out, "Manufactured by GM S. Korea."

Me: "What, GM has a plant in S. Korea now?"

Him: "Nah. It's just a re-badged Daewoo."

Me: "Really? What's under the hood, a turbo-charged four cylinder?"

Him: "Not even. It's a three cylinder."

Me: "Seriously? These used to have V6's in them. What's the world coming to? Who's buying these?"

Him: "Lifelong GM guys buy them for their daughters going off to college. They look good, but they're basically disposable. They'll start falling apart around 50k miles."

I think about stuff like this when I read forum discussions decrying "disposable" movements. I look around my house - $200 flat-screen TVs, $600 clothes washer, $500 dryer, $2000 refrigerator, and always within arm's reach, a $500 mobile phone.

None of them are really "repairable" or "serviceable", in the traditional sense. I wouldn't even bother trying to get a $200 flat-screen TV fixed these days. Our last $3k refrigerator only lasted about six years before it became "junk".

The same people who complain about a $700 watch with a "disposable" Miyota movement that should run well for decades are probably buying a new $500-$600 mobile phone every three years, and probably only getting $100-$300 in trade-in value for their old phone.

Meanwhile, my local independent watchmaker is talking about closing his shop to work for Watch Box, or failing that, raising his rates for the next few years, until he retires.

He's only charging about $275 to do a basic service on an ETA 2824-2, and he's always got a months-long back-log of work. He complains (understandably) about people coming in just for battery swaps or bracelet sizing.

Last night as I was driving to get my son and his friends from work, I was thinking about some of the paradoxes of my business. Watch geeks can be the worst possible customers, but my business wouldn't exist without them.

Likewise, life was better before the internet (or at least, social media), and before we outsourced most manufacturing to China. But there again, my business wouldn't exist without the internet and social media, and probably not without low-cost Chinese manufacturing.

Such is the trend of progress, I think, that the one constant is change, and those who are most adept at adapting to it are most likely to find success by rolling with it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> A blue one? I’ll give it a look I suppose
> 
> I was gonna see if nth had a used blue swiftsure and email them about trade value estimate
> 
> ...


Estimates of trade value aren't really our bailiwick. 

I've never done trades. Just buying and selling. I'm not sure if this is right, but my loose understanding is that trade value is (or logically should be) approximately what someone's estimate of used sale value would be.

On that basis, my rule of thumb is that any used but recent-production watch is likely to be priced around 20% under new retail prices, but with adjustments up or down made for newness / condition, and availability of the watch new or used.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> A few months back, I popped into the car dealership where my friend works as the service and parts department manager.
> 
> Parked in front of his desk was a new Chevy Trailblazer, which I commented on, as it was nice-looking. By which I mean, it looked like it was designed in Japan, or at least Asia, with lots of creases and lines in the body work.
> 
> ...


I read as far as three cylinder before typing this, ima go back and finish.

Koeninsegg has a bad ass little three cylinder 
Straight three, 600 HP and 433 ft lb of torque 2 liter

I often think about how it would double the power of my v6 Silverado and how much space would be available in the engine bay

Koeninsegg is run by people who do drugs for inspiration and agree on the vision


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of getting disposable stuff fixed...

A few months back, my son's Xbox One broke. We took it to a local chain, "UBreakIfix". The clerk persuaded me to opt for their $25 / month all-devices-covered service plan from Asurion. 

As you'd guess, for $25 / month, they'll fix any electronic device in your household. And if they can't fix it, Asurion will replace it. 

His pitch to me was basically thus: "I don't know if we can fix this, but if you sign up for this plan, and wait at least 30 days before submitting your claim, they'll replace it, if we can't fix it. If you want to cancel the plan after that, you can."

I vaguely recall the XBox being $500-$600 new, something like 4 or 5 years ago, so I figured $25 was cheap insurance in this scenario. Sure enough, when I got home, I looked online, and saw that used units in reasonably good condition sell for $200-$400.

Sure enough, they couldn't fix it. I was expecting we'd get a new XBox, but nope, that's not how the plan works, apparently. They offered us $175 as their estimate of used market value. Always read the fine print.

So, not a terrible outcome, all things considered, We took the $175 (not realizing it was a negotiation, and could have asked for more - lesson learned), and purchased a used unit in good condition for $225. I canceled the plan right after we got the money from them. The whole ordeal cost us $75 ($25 for the plan, and $50 more than what they gave us for the unit). 

I guess my point is - I think I feel better selling a $500-$800 supposedly "disposable" watch than I would making and selling $500-$600 disposable mobile phones, or $3000 disposable refrigerators. If you flip the watch for 20% less than you paid, then it cost you $100-$160 for however long you owned it. If you keep it, it should serve you well for decades.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> A few months back, I popped into the car dealership where my friend works as the service and parts department manager.
> 
> Parked in front of his desk was a new Chevy Trailblazer, which I commented on, as it was nice-looking. By which I mean, it looked like it was designed in Japan, or at least Asia, with lots of creases and lines in the body work.
> 
> ...


Cherry picking again but **** those guys complaining about movements

Long as it moves and holds decently accurate time I’m good. 

Look my seiko I just got steels the spotlight from the barracuda for vintage. Just does but I really like what you did which is why I’m gonna be getting I touch about trading in for the blue swiftsure I wanted in the first place or that Antilles. I’d say the quality of that v2 barracuda competes very well against my seiko spb143. You punch above your prices very well

I did put my cuda on the bay and some **** offered me $480. My best bet is probably to hit you up send it in find a value and give you the difference on a used blue swiftsure if you got one if not then a new one. I still want that watch and it would fit better into my line up right now

**** that, dude can go buy a brand new one instead $480 I sold my steinhart at a good deal to get it done for $425 and some asshoke offered $200. I hope he gets a flat tire on the way to work

My local watch shop will size my bracelet for free and do basic stuff like that and for as much as I like them I don’t do much business there so I always insist I pay them something. I’m pulling them away from work even briefly that pays them money for my ****. I like them and their shop and business being there. If they’re giving me a service at all then im giving them money.

Feel for your watch maker buddy, the customer is always right and service to that degree is the bane of the industry. When I need a guy to get my **** straight I want him to shoot me straight and give me the bad news and the good news. I want a real answer with a real solution even if it’s to go **** myself or else I wouldn’t need someone else’s help

It’s business, if I wanted sugar coating I’d go buy candy


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Estimates of trade value aren't really our bailiwick.
> 
> I've never done trades. Just buying and selling. I'm not sure if this is right, but my loose understanding is that trade value is (or logically should be) approximately what someone's estimate of used sale value would be.
> 
> On that basis, my rule of thumb is that any used but recent-production watch is likely to be priced around 20% under new retail prices, but with adjustments up or down made for newness / condition, and availability of the watch new or used.


Yeah I figured since it’s an nth I can send it in and take a different nth off your hands

The nearly new thing


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> I read as far as three cylinder before typing this, ima go back and finish.
> 
> Koeninsegg has a bad ass little three cylinder
> Straight three, 600 HP and 433 ft lb of torque 2 liter
> ...


I wasn't aware.

If you have Netflix, I highly recommend a documentary called "Apex", about the quest to build the world's fastest, most exclusive hypercars. Christian von Koeninsegg features prominently.

I just looked it up - it seems the cylinders are huge compared to most small engines. It also has tons of turbo boost, and some other wiz-bang stuff, like their cam-less "FreeValve" system.

I don't think the 3-cylinder in the Chevy Trailblazer made by Daewoo is very comparable.

Speaking of three-cylinder's though...my '95 "Diablo Black" Triumph Speed Triple cafe racer was a straight three. It made gobs of torque, and was a hoot to ride. I've since always had a soft spot for the brand.

When I was out to dinner with my wife and son this past Friday evening, I spotted one of these in the parking lot:










That's their upright-twin Thruxton Cafe Racer. Apparently they're making 103 bhp from the 1200cc two-cylinder engine, and a "stump-pulling" 82.6 ft-lbs of torque, both of which seem like a lot to me, but perhaps not these days.

Really nice looking modern-yet-vintage-styled bike, albeit, you couldn't fit a baby's head under / behind that windscreen, much less a full-grown man's, wearing a proper full-face helmet.

I just looked up the power specs for my '95 Speed Triple, which was only 885cc's. It made 98 bhp, and 60 ft-lbs, which seemed like "way more than enough" when I was still riding it (at nowhere near the edge of its performance envelope) 25 years ago. Quite impressive, looking back, to see it only made 5bhp less, despite being down 26% on displacement.

I suppose it shows that size isn't everything...

Now, there's an old-school hooligan bike for you...


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I wasn't aware.
> 
> If you have Netflix, I highly recommend a documentary called "Apex", about the quest to build the world's fastest, most exclusive hypercars. Christian von Koeninsegg features prominently.
> 
> ...


Yeah the koeninsegg is a bit different, but so is that whole company

The pivoted from using torque converters cause save weight and who needs to shift to making the lst, light speed transmission, which puts a dual clutch to shame. Then there’s the one megawatt package and so on

From an engineering perspective whenever I hear how much their cars cost it always seems worth it cause they just do some wild ****

I had started watching apex and forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder I’m gonna watch it at work this week I think.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I wasn't aware.
> 
> If you have Netflix, I highly recommend a documentary called "Apex", about the quest to build the world's fastest, most exclusive hypercars. Christian von Koeninsegg features prominently.
> 
> ...


I’d really like a cafe racer style bike. A triumph, such handsome machines.

Maybe I’ll give in one day cause I’d like to do a Shelby kit car but that’s not something I see happening anytime soon. The cafe racer kinda catches that era in my head


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Yeah I figured since it’s an nth I can send it in and take a different nth off your hands
> 
> The nearly new thing
> 
> ...


I'm not ruling it out. We haven't ever taken back an NTH in trade on a new watch, but it's never come up.

Most of the watches we sell as Nearly New are blogger or photo samples, or watches from my own collection, so they don't really have the same "cost" to me, compared to buying a used watch, or taking one in trade.

That said, I have bought used watches to sell as Nearly New. I tend to look for the most pristine examples I can find, selling for ridiculously good prices.

To make that clear - my cost on a blogger sample or watch I pulled from inventory is my production cost. Even selling it at a reduced price as Nearly New, I'm making enough profit. It's harder to do that if I'm buying watches on the used market, where sellers' expectations may be reasonable, but not necessarily fit into my business plan. 

If there are any visible scratches on the bracelet or clasp, much less the case or bezel, I move on. If the asking price isn't at least 20% less than the new retail price, I move on. If we're not selling that model any more, or if our stock on it is getting very low, I move on.

I'm not looking to compete with the market, if the market is supporting used prices of 80% or more of a watch's new price. If that's the temperature of the market, I'll let the market buy the watch, and keep looking. When I'm buying back my own watches, I'm an extreme cherry-picker.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Well worst comes to worst I’d rather take the loss and move into a new or new to me blue swiftsure and support your business twice(by eating it in the trade value and then buying another model be it new or used) than giving some schmuck the deal cause he’s an ******* that lowballs people on a fair price( in this instance $540) which I think for a private deal is a damn fair offer for the watch in its condition. 

I’d be interested in something like a $450 (or whatever the mark is, I really can’t tell you where the fair price is to make it worth your time) value and pay the difference on a blue swift. Used if you got it

At any rate that’s something we can hash out later in email and I imagine you can’t tell me if that’s acceptable to your business until you get and see the watch anyway


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm not ruling it out. We haven't ever taken back an NTH in trade on a new watch, but it's never come up.
> 
> Most of the watches we sell as Nearly New are blogger or photo samples, or watches from my own collection, so they don't really have the same "cost" to me, compared to buying a used watch, or taking one in trade.
> 
> ...


May not be worth your time reading the description and if not then oh well. I won’t hurt holding on to it.

Pics are on my listing. NTH Barracuda Vintage Black No Date V2 | eBay


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We have a couple editions of the Forza racing games for my son's XBox. I've "driven" that Koenigsegg at "Le Mans".

I didn't realize it only had one gear, until winding it up to redline on Le Mans's back straight, and thinking there was something wrong with the game, seeing that I was going over 120mph in first gear.

It may be wild fun to drive in the real world. I'll never know. But it was boring in the game. Most Koenigsegg are (at least in the games), to be honest. They're all power, but with no traction, and no cornering ability. They're cumbersome around a track, with way too much under-steer, until the back end violently breaks free and whips around, pointing the front of the car at the curb.

My favorite cars in those games are the JDM Nissans and Toyotas - Silvias, GT-R's, and Supras, that start out with 200-300 bhp, but can be hot-rodded to make 500-600, and modified with all-wheel-drive. They accelerate, decelerate, and most importantly, turn, in a much more predictable, linear way.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> May not be worth your time reading the description and if not then oh well. I won’t hurt holding on to it.
> 
> Pics are on my listing. NTH Barracuda Vintage Black No Date V2 | eBay
> 
> ...


I think @sirgilbert357 is looking for just that model.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> I think @sirgilbert357 is looking for just that model.


Well maybe we strike a deal then.

Youre a good business man. 

I remember that $200 offer on my steinhart. I think I’d toss it into the Gulf of Mexico before selling it for that little


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Few posts late, but 2.0l is a large 3 cylinder. More displacement than many 4 cylinders. 

But let's face it, that power comes from boost.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> Few posts late, but 2.0l is a large 3 cylinder. More displacement than many 4 cylinders.
> 
> But let's face it, that power comes from boost.


Yeah but still an impressive little 147 pound engine 


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> I think about stuff like this when I read forum discussions decrying "disposable" movements. I look around my house - $200 flat-screen TVs, $600 clothes washer, $500 dryer, $2000 refrigerator, and always within arm's reach, a $500 mobile phone.
> 
> None of them are really "repairable" or "serviceable", in the traditional sense. I wouldn't even bother trying to get a $200 flat-screen TV fixed these days. Our last $3k refrigerator only lasted about six years before it became "junk".
> 
> The same people who complain about a $700 watch with a "disposable" Miyota movement that should run well for decades are probably buying a new $500-$600 mobile phone every three years, and probably only getting $100-$300 in trade-in value for their old phone.


Yes it's true, few things are designed to be repairable anymore. Everything is disposable, even $1000 phones and kitchen appliances. That's not a good thing, and I don't really see it as "progress" but, unfortunately, that's the way the world works now. Producers are exerting their power to control how their products are consumed to extract more profits. They make it so we can't just buy something once and own it, but have to keep buying it over and over. I think one of the things I like about mechanical watches is they're among the few remaining things you can buy anymore that are fully serviceable and you actually get to own forever. Though the latest movements coming from Swatch Group are harbingers of that no longer being true in the future.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> I dig it! I've come to the realization that squares are crack... my most recent fix. Only three days old.
> View attachment 16167916


Those are wild. They always look like someone super imposed the grid lines on top of a photo of a plain black watch.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Those are wild. They always look like someone super imposed the grid lines on top of a photo of a plain black watch.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Swapped inserts on my Dolphin again. Santa Cruz may be next.


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## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

docvail said:


> I think @sirgilbert357 is looking for just that model.


I am. If used Barracudas are going for 600 bucks, though, I think I'd rather just wait until the next run and buy one brand new. If they are never made again, that's fine. I'll probably be getting a Tudor BB58 eventually anyway. I'm in no rush to do any of this.

But I have looked at all the BB58 homages I can find and none of them appeal to me except the NTH. So, that's saying something...


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

sirgilbert357 said:


> I am. If used Barracudas are going for 600 bucks, though, I think I'd rather just wait until the next run and buy one brand new. If they are never made again, that's fine. I'll probably be getting a Tudor BB58 eventually anyway. I'm in no rush to do any of this.
> 
> But I have looked at all the BB58 homages I can find and none of them appeal to me except the NTH. So, that's saying something...


It’s a best offer listing too. I’d love to get $600 but I accept that’s a lofty goal. 

Where are you on price?


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## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> It’s a best offer listing too. I’d love to get $600 but I accept that’s a lofty goal.
> 
> Where are you on price?
> 
> ...


This is going to sound so snobbish, but I don't intend for it to...

Money isn't the concern. Yes, I want to get a good deal, but I'm literally willing to buy one new at whatever MSRP or street prices are these days (700 bucks?). In three months, I might just say "eff it" and buy the Tudor from my local AD (4k +/-).

So it isn't money...it's just that I haven't decided what to do.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

sirgilbert357 said:


> This is going to sound so snobbish, but I don't intend for it to...
> 
> Money isn't the concern. Yes, I want to get a good deal, but I'm literally willing to buy one new at whatever MSRP or street prices are these days (700 bucks?). In three months, I might just say "eff it" and buy the Tudor from my local AD (4k +/-).
> 
> So it isn't money...it's just that I haven't decided what to do.


That doesn’t sound snobbish at all. It sounds like you want to be sure when you spend your money. And if you go by the Tudor instead how can I blame you? 

I’m not in a huge rush to move it and I think I can be reasonable. 

I think you stated your position bluntly and eloquently enough. Honestly but not condescending, I appreciate it. Nice and too the point.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sirgilbert357 said:


> I am. If used Barracudas are going for 600 bucks, though, I think I'd rather just wait until the next run and buy one brand new. If they are never made again, that's fine. I'll probably be getting a Tudor BB58 eventually anyway. I'm in no rush to do any of this.
> 
> But I have looked at all the BB58 homages I can find and none of them appeal to me except the NTH. So, that's saying something...


They're still available new. It's a little early to be talking about the next run already.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

And I agree that the nth is the way to go as far as not the Tudor. The details are nice and it’s an eloquent watch. The endlinks definition the steel bezel, the case design and how everting could mrs to a natural point and ending then the finish on the case with the facets and the brushing then the polishing 

It’s one of those things where the longer it takes to sell the less concerned I am with it selling

One day I may appreciate having it still even if it doesn’t get anything close to daily use. Maybe use it as a really nice beater, I’m sure it would age like fine wine and my seiko I can try to keep prettier 


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I checked out watches at my local AD, and I went Barracuda. To each their own though


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> And I agree that the nth is the way to go as far as not the Tudor. The details are nice and it’s an eloquent watch. The endlinks definition the steel bezel, the case design and how everting could mrs to a natural point and ending then the finish on the case with the facets and the brushing then the polishing
> 
> It’s one of those things where the longer it takes to sell the less concerned I am with it selling
> 
> ...


You need to learn to embrace a rotation. My Seiko SPB was enjoyed yesterday....my NTH's were enjoyed multiple other days this week.

Some days start out G-Shock and end with an NTH.

Don't overthink it, just have fun!


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> I checked out watches at my local AD, and I went Barracuda. To each their own though


The barracuda made me stop wearing my steinhart. The design seemed lazy in comparison. All the details in my previous post all I could see is all those areas on the steinhart that just fell short

It looked lazy and clumsy and worst of all those crown guards. They only looked good looking at the watch straight on. Their were the icing on the cake of the sloppy details that just kinda ruined the watch for me

I don’t wanna be looking at glaring spots of cut corners. The cuda is very refined 


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> You need to learn to embrace a rotation. My Seiko SPB was enjoyed yesterday....my NTH's were enjoyed multiple other days this week.
> 
> Some days start out G-Shock and end with an NTH.
> 
> Don't overthink it, just have fun!


I like to keep the pile small. And it is small and the nice thing with the cuda is it’s a no date easier to set the time and go


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## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> That doesn’t sound snobbish at all. It sounds like you want to be sure when you spend your money. And if you go by the Tudor instead how can I blame you?
> 
> I’m not in a huge rush to move it and I think I can be reasonable.
> 
> ...


Thanks for understanding. Ironically, another watch in my collection is contributing to this decision / indecision loop I'm stuck in.

I have a gilt dial Seiko Turtle that I love. But due to my ongoing efforts to reduce my collection, I've decided if I get the Tudor BB58, I should probably sell the gilt Turtle. But I love the Turtle case shape and hands, so I'd want to get another one in a different color. I'm trying to figure that part out now. Have cake, will eat it too...first world problems, I know.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

sirgilbert357 said:


> Thanks for understanding. Ironically, another watch in my collection is contributing to this decision / indecision loop I'm stuck in.
> 
> I have a gilt dial Seiko Turtle that I love. But due to my ongoing efforts to reduce my collection, I've decided if I get the Tudor BB58, I should probably sell the gilt Turtle. But I love the Turtle case shape and hands, so I'd want to get another one in a different color. I'm trying to figure that part out now. Have cake, will eat it too...first world problems, I know.


If that ain’t the damn truth.


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

sirgilbert357 said:


> This is going to sound so snobbish, but I don't intend for it to...
> 
> Money isn't the concern. Yes, I want to get a good deal, but I'm literally willing to buy one new at whatever MSRP or street prices are these days (700 bucks?). In three months, I might just say "eff it" and buy the Tudor from my local AD (4k +/-).
> 
> So it isn't money...it's just that I haven't decided what to do.


If you can make the next DFW GTG (it's been _*years*_, yo! ), I'll bring the BB58b and if @Fullers1845 is there, maybe he can bring his NTH Carolina and San Martin/BSH BB58, and you can feed your thoughts on several options side by side. All have something to recommend them.


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## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

watchcrank_tx said:


> If you can make the next DFW GTG (its been _*years*_, yo! ), I'll bring the BB58b and if @Fullers1845 is there, maybe he can bring his NTH Carolina and San Martin/BSH BB58, and you can feed your thoughts on several options side by side. All have something to recommend them.


That would be really helpful actually. And I keep TRYING to make the GTG, maybe next month will be the one!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

If I can get back to TX, I'm going to a DFW meet!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sirgilbert357 said:


> That would be really helpful actually. And I keep TRYING to make the GTG, maybe next month will be the one!


Am I to understand you haven't seen a BB58 in person yet? You should make the time, considering what it costs, before you purchase one.

I've seen it in my local Tourneau. To be fair, it's a very nice-looking watch, and feels like a very well-made watch. I love the no-date. It's one of the few watches in that >$1k range that I could see owning and enjoying, if I didn't make watches.

My only criticisms - I'd like a more rugged bezel insert material than aluminum, and while I liked the overall dimensions, I felt like it was a little "high-shouldered" - it's a bit slab-sided, the appearance of which isn't helped by the thinness of the bezel.

Good luck with your decisions.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Doc (summarized): "I'd like the BB58 more if it was more like the BVB."

Me: "The BB58 is essentially a lower quality homage to the BVB."


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Am I to understand you haven't seen a BB58 in person yet? You should make the time, considering what it costs, before you purchase one.
> 
> I've seen it in my local Tourneau. To be fair, it's a very nice-looking watch, and feels like a very well-made watch. I love the no-date. It's one of the few watches in that >$1k range that I could see owning and enjoying, if I didn't make watches.
> 
> ...


I share similar sentiments. With a 7.5" wrist, I went to check out the BB41, but the size (especially thickness) left me underwhelmed. If I bought one, it would be the 58 blue. It just did not compel me to spend the price though. Stupid as it sounds, I wanted it to....but it did not.

The size and build of my Barracuda impress me more. I realize there is a substantial price difference in play, but I genuinely find myself preferring the size/lugs/color of my Cuda.


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## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

docvail said:


> Am I to understand you haven't seen a BB58 in person yet? You should make the time, considering what it costs, before you purchase one.
> 
> I've seen it in my local Tourneau. To be fair, it's a very nice-looking watch, and feels like a very well-made watch. I love the no-date. It's one of the few watches in that >$1k range that I could see owning and enjoying, if I didn't make watches.
> 
> ...


I saw a 41 mm version on a leather strap. I also saw a Pelagos.
At the time, my criticism was that the 41 mm wore bigger than I thought it "should" -- but I thought it was the 38mm version. Lol.

They did not have a 38mm version in stock at all. I would have had to order it. But I saw the riveted bracelet on another model and it was fine.

Again, I am in no hurry. I'll see one when I see one. But if the 41 mm version had been 38, I think it would have been fine.

I have $2,500 saved and can get that to 4.5k within two months. So I have some time to make my decision. And once I have the money, there's still no need to rush...I might wait even longer, who knows.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Well worst comes to worst I’d rather take the loss and move into a new or new to me blue swiftsure and support your business twice(by eating it in the trade value and then buying another model be it new or used) than giving some schmuck the deal cause he’s an ***** that lowballs people on a fair price( in this instance $540) which I think for a private deal is a damn fair offer for the watch in its condition.
> 
> I’d be interested in something like a $450 (or whatever the mark is, I really can’t tell you where the fair price is to make it worth your time) value and pay the difference on a blue swift. Used if you got it
> 
> ...


Sorry, just remembered I didn't respond to the implied question about the blue Swiftsure.

I'm 89.7% sure we have one available, Nearly New.

But just one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I checked out watches at my local AD, and I went Barracuda. To each their own though


True stories...

I have a friend, Ryan. He bought a BVB. Sold it. Bought the Tudor BB58. Sold it. Bought the BVB again. He seems happier with the BVB the second time around, after owning the BB58.

Why? Maybe the BB58 was too much money on his wrist. Maybe he actually likes the BVB better. I'm sure he told me, but I forget. It doesn't really matter, as long as he's happy. It's not for me to go around telling people the BVB is "better" because Ryan decided it was better for him.

Had another "friend" on social media, who will remain unnamed. This person couldn't help but comment that everyone would prefer the Tudor, because "Tudor", and no one would want the BVB, because it's not a "Tudor". It wasn't enough to simply say that. Oh no. The commentary continued, effectively calling the BVB nothing but a knockoff.

Okay, fine. Opinions vary.

I know there are people who can look past the logo and brand name, and past the "heritage", and make decisions based on what they actually want, based on what they actually value. Apparently my pointing out that people like Ryan exist really aggravated this person, who took to trolling NTH on social media soon after.

Life is too short, my friends. If you like the Tudor more, and that's what you want, and you can afford it, without sacrificing what's more important (food on the table, planning for the future, taking vacations, time with your family, etc), then get the Tudor, and make no apologies to anyone about it. You don't owe anyone an explanation.

If you like the NTH more, buy one (please!), and just enjoy it. Make no apologies to anyone about it. You don't owe anyone an explanation.

Anyone who goes out of their way to denigrate your decision is fundamentally unhappy about other stuff, stuff which has nothing to do with you or the watch you bought, and is just expressing their unhappiness by trying to spread it to others. Don't let them.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Hey peeps, take the negotiating to DM. The mods frown on it in threads. Trying to keep this one from getting locked 👍


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Wow...
> 
> Meanwhile my V1 BVB has been sitting in the sale forum for two months.
> 
> ...


That's a shame. The price seems more than fair. 

I'd be interested, were it not for the facts that:

A - I already have the exact watch in my own collection, and

B - We've moved on to the v.2 case version of that model, so it's not really something I'd want for our Nearly New section, where part of the intent is to have a good representation of current models which are still available to be purchased new, from our site or our retailers. Otherwise, I'd have already contacted you about it.

Maybe it needs more / better pics? Not that your images don't show its condition in enough detail, but perhaps they're not the most flattering to the watch. My observation has been that good pics are a key component of successful used market sales.

Also - while it's common for people to give some history behind a watch, to include reasons for selling, I wonder if it's all just too much detail. Do people care why someone is selling, or whether or not the seller is the watch's first owner? I can't articulate why, but my gut feeling is that sellers are hurting themselves providing some of that history.

"He said it had been fully serviced by NTH earlier this year." - I don't know what that means. It's still under warranty. If it was returned to us for some reason, it was likely something minor. Maybe it needed to be regulated again, or perhaps we just added some lubrication to the crown assembly. Those are the two most common reasons we've seen for returns within the last 2-3 years. We don't really have a "fully serviced" thing happening here, in the traditional sense of what that phrase means to most watch geeks.

Lastly - your description says it's the older version of the v.2 bracelet, produced between November 2018 and July 2019, but those look like the current-generation (v.2.1) end-links to me, with the groove machined into them, to increase the definition of that center-section. If so, then that would make the bracelet, and most likely the watch, no older than our October 2020 release, and it could possibly be from our January 2021 release. That watch would appear to be barely a year old, or less, just 9 months old.

Hope that helps. Good luck with the sale.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> True stories...
> 
> I have a friend, Ryan. He bought a BVB. Sold it. Bought the Tudor BB58. Sold it. Bought the BVB again. He seems happier with the BVB the second time around, after owning the BB58.
> 
> ...


What's not to like?!?!










Unless you don't like brown....or rushed, crappy pics....then there's plenty not to like.

Luckily, there are other colors to choose from, and better cameras!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sirgilbert357 said:


> I saw a 41 mm version on a leather strap. I also saw a Pelagos.
> At the time, my criticism was that the 41 mm wore bigger than I thought it "should" -- but I thought it was the 38mm version. Lol.
> 
> They did not have a 38mm version in stock at all. I would have had to order it. But I saw the riveted bracelet on another model and it was fine.
> ...


I did the same thing while on my family trip to England two years ago, back when you couldn't find a BB58 anywhere, for love or money. Saw a BB walking by an AD's window in Exeter. Thought it was the BB58, but it was the 41. Got excited for nothing.

I've tried on the BB 41's, and the Pelagos. I agree, they do feel larger than their dimensions would suggest. I think that's why I like the BB58 - it feels a little larger, more like a 40. I just couldn't get myself to love its case design.

I actually think the Pelagos has a better case design than the BB's. It doesn't seem quite as slab-sided, a perception I think is helped by having crown guards, and a proportionally wider (taller) bezel edge.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Hey peeps, take the negotiating to DM. The mods frown on it in threads. Trying to keep this one from getting locked 👍


I figured I wasn't the only one who had a post deleted.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I figured I wasn't the only one who had a post deleted.


You weren't lol


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> I figured I wasn't the only one who had a post deleted.


Me too


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

NTH Devil Ray day
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

DevilRays are the coolest.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Gotta say, I am really loving this single-pass seatbelt NATO:










My usual complaints about NATO straps are the same as most folks: adds too much height to the watch head, long awkward tail that needs to be folded over, blah blah...

This strap negates all of that. the length makes it fit like a normal two-piece strap, and the single-pass keeps the height low. After a couple weeks of wearing it, the strap sort of conforms to the caseback.










The keepers are a little unusual. The first one is on the end of the strap that doubles back through the buckle. The second one is free-floating. 










Adjusting this is maybe the trickiest part of the whole thing, but it's not too bad.

I know they say everyone goes through a "NATO phase", so maybe that's me right now. But I've tried traditional NATOs before and been deterred. This has been an entirely different experience. Just thought I'd share.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> ...The keepers are a little unusual. The first one is on the end of the strap that doubles back through the buckle. The second one is free-floating.
> 
> View attachment 16174940
> 
> ...


My OCD often compels me to figure out the "why" behind some product quirks.

So...the keeper by the buckle is floating, and the other is secured to the end, and can only be adjusted by fishing the strap through the buckle?

While this seems unnecessarily odd and overly complex as a set-up, it...nope, it doesn't really save stitching cost, since that keeper is stitched into the end of the strap. The only advantage I can see here is that once you get the second keeper where you want it, it stays there, rather than sliding up and down the strap.

I stand by my first thought. This seems unnecessarily odd and overly complex.

I don't wear NATOs as often as I used to, and maybe I'm just weird, but I actually like the odd-ball stupidity of their design.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> My OCD often compels me to figure out the "why" behind some product quirks.
> 
> So...the keeper by the buckle is floating, and the other is secured to the end, and can only be adjusted by fishing the strap through the buckle?
> 
> ...


Not that silly. I am ok with it because you can adjust to your wrist size. For the smaller wrists like me, it's OK and I have a bunch of these types of straps through various retailers, but generally the same. Some have the tang holes way off than others. But bottom line...OK for me. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Not that silly. I am ok with it because you can adjust to your wrist size. For the smaller wrists like me, it's OK and I have a bunch of these types of straps through various retailers, but generally the same. Some have the tang holes way off than others. But bottom line...OK for me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Not really wanting to sound like I'm arguing, I am interested in playing Devil's advocate, because this is interesting...

So...if I understand you correctly, sometimes you can't get a good fit with a strap, because of where the tang holes are located. Being able to adjust the length of the buckle-side of the strap gives you the ability to get those tang holes right where you want them?

Okay, that seems like a real benefit, more so than simply being able to lock the "floating" keeper in place. I wonder if this is the most ideal way to achieve it. I can't think of a better way, so we'll go with it.

It's hard for me to immediately see the sense in some things, based on my own wearing habits. I like to wear my watches a little loose, and I can't remember ever being annoyed that a watch suddenly felt "too loose", because my wrist shrunk intra-day, so it's rare that I find I just can't get a comfortable fit no matter what I do. It makes this sort of feature not obviously useful for me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FYI errbuddy - we've now shipped all Tropics (Antilles and Azores - including the new colorways) to our retailers, all of whom should have the Tropics available for purchase by the end of this week.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Re NATOS. To each their own, but isn’t the fold over strap the “identifiable uniqueness and charm” of a NATO? The feature that primarily identifies it as a NATO band? Not losing case if pin pops notwithstanding? If it’s just going to look like a basic strap, why not just get a basic strap? To me the reason for a NATO is to quickly get a watch case on it and get it securely on your wrist without a lot of fumbling to adjust it.

FWIW, last two places I’ve bought NATOS they came with 13 buckle holes. Can’t imagine there’s a wrist they wouldn’t comfortably fit…though I’ve learned to never say never!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#2Crown2uesday …on a green leather two pass NATO…


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lab4Us said:


> Re NATOS. To each their own, but isn’t the fold over strap the “identifiable uniqueness and charm” of a NATO? The feature that primarily identifies it as a NATO band? Not losing case if pin pops notwithstanding? If it’s just going to look like a basic strap, why not just get a basic strap? To me the reason for a NATO is to quickly get a watch case on it and get it securely on your wrist without a lot of fumbling to adjust it.
> 
> FWIW, last two places I’ve bought NATOS they came with 13 buckle holes. Can’t imagine there’s a wrist they wouldn’t comfortably fit…though I’ve learned to never say never!


Fit is one thing, to me looks is another. Most of the time I don't like the extra slack and some of the times I cannot tuck it all in. And that annoys me. So I cut and burn them to size some of the time.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...the keeper by the buckle is floating, and the other is secured to the end, and can only be adjusted by fishing the strap through the buckle?


Correct. Like I said, that's the most annoying part, but you really just have to do it once to get it sized.



docvail said:


> So...if I understand you correctly, sometimes you can't get a good fit with a strap, because of where the tang holes are located. Being able to adjust the length of the buckle-side of the strap gives you the ability to get those tang holes right where you want them?


True, but also, it gives you some leeway to position the buckle on the inside of your wrist instead of more towards the "back" of your wrist (along the edge of your wrist in-line with your pinky finger is what I'm trying to say) the way NATO straps seem to line up because of the second strap keeper thingie.



Lab4Us said:


> Re NATOS. To each their own, but isn’t the fold over strap the “identifiable uniqueness and charm” of a NATO? The feature that primarily identifies it as a NATO band? Not losing case if pin pops notwithstanding? If it’s just going to look like a basic strap, why not just get a basic strap? To me the reason for a NATO is to quickly get a watch case on it and get it securely on your wrist without a lot of fumbling to adjust it.
> 
> FWIW, last two places I’ve bought NATOS they came with 13 buckle holes. Can’t imagine there’s a wrist they wouldn’t comfortably fit…though I’ve learned to never say never!


I mean, I guess. The fold-over was never appealing to me, and as I said, one of the reasons that I haven't been interested in traditional NATOs. I mainly like the two-spring-bar-security, but also more simply it's a sweat-tolerant strap option other than a bracelet or rubber. Typically, I wear a bracelet in the summer when I sweat a lot and a leather strap in the winter. What sent me down the NATO road was that I was feeling the itch to swap out the bracelet for something else, but it's still too warm around here for leather.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Devil with a white band, white band, white band, Devil with a white band on!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Lab4Us said:


> Devil with a white band, white band, white band, Devil with a white band on!
> 
> View attachment 16176794


Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels thank you.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Swapped to the NTH band that recently arrived. Just comfortable!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just dropped.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> This just dropped.


You need to stop it with these killer colors. My accountant is starting to ask too many questions.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

CuriousBob said:


> My accountant is starting to ask too many questions.


I hear you can hire hit men on the dark web. 
Just sayin....


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I'm probably missing something but I'm curious. The description says luminous internal bezel, and the CAD (can't remember if that's what it's called) has lume but it looks like the bezel on the final product does not. I might just be being nosey but was there a reason for this?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

Honestly with the SPB143 covering the base it covers I find myself re tempted by the brown cuda

You know I used to not be into watches


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I am really loving this watch the more I wear it. The combination of colours and the BoP bracelet just work so well. And then there is the hand swap too (of course).









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

CuriousBob said:


> I'm probably missing something but I'm curious. The description says luminous internal bezel, and the CAD (can't remember if that's what it's called) has lume but it looks like the bezel on the final product does not. I might just be being nosey but was there a reason for this?
> View attachment 16177555
> 
> View attachment 16177556


I could be wrong, but aren’t the numbers 1-12 located on the internal bezel? The numbers all lumey in the first photo?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lab4Us said:


> I could be wrong, but aren’t the numbers 1-12 located on the internal bezel? The numbers all lumey in the first photo?


Yes. I think he was referring to the bezel as the internal bezel. It was odd that the internal bezel did not glow like my v1 azores. Maybe Marc didn't hit it with enough light before turning off the lights?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Honestly with the SPB143 covering the base it covers I find myself re tempted by the brown cuda
> 
> You know I used to not be into watches
> 
> ...


Bro, the brown Barracuda is money. So much more versatile than you might originally think. It is also a great choice on bracelet, NTH fitted rubber, or it is a great vessel for loads of different brown/leather straps!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHresherNTHursday


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Or…just #NTHursday if you prefer!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> Or…just #NTHursday if you prefer!
> 
> View attachment 16178582


Nice!!!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

CuriousBob said:


> I'm probably missing something but I'm curious. The description says luminous internal bezel, and the CAD (can't remember if that's what it's called) has lume but it looks like the bezel on the final product does not. I might just be being nosey but was there a reason for this?
> View attachment 16177555
> 
> View attachment 16177556
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> You need to stop it with these killer colors. My accountant is starting to ask too many questions.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

NTHursday










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> I'm probably missing something but I'm curious. The description says luminous internal bezel, and the CAD (can't remember if that's what it's called) has lume but it looks like the bezel on the final product does not. I might just be being nosey but was there a reason for this?
> View attachment 16177555
> 
> View attachment 16177556


The bezel is lumed.

Apparently the photographer thought it would be funny to do a pic making it look like the bezel isn't lumed, hoping someone would notice it, post it here to the forum, and damned near give me a heart attack at the end of a long, stressful work day.

That photographer. He's a stitch, I'll tellya.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> You know I used to not be into watches..


That's it!!!

THAT'S the title of the autobiography!!!


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> The bezel is lumed.
> 
> Apparently the photographer thought it would be funny to do a pic making it look like the bezel isn't lumed, hoping someone would notice it, post it here to the forum, and damned near give me a heart attack at the end of a long, stressful work day.
> 
> That photographer. He's a stitch, I'll tellya.


Thanks for the clarification. To be honest though, I ordered the hpnotiq version 5 minutes after I asked the question anyway. Couldn't wait. 🙄


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## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


>


Is this a mod? Never seen a Nacken with an all stainless bezel...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sirgilbert357 said:


> Is this a mod? Never seen a Nacken with an all stainless bezel...


It's a mod.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

sirgilbert357 said:


> Is this a mod? Never seen a Nacken with an all stainless bezel...


Yup. Simple bezel swap, put on the Polar Barracuda insert.

Love at first sight.

Getcha inserts heah!


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## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Yup. Simple bezel swap, put on the Polar Barracuda insert.
> 
> Love at first sight.
> 
> Getcha inserts heah!


It looks damn sexy. Good job.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

My favorite (and first) NTH, in just the perfect color…as anyone who’s stood on the shore rocks of Terceira Island will tell you. It’s where I spent a lot of time in 1995-96.

*Terceira* (Portuguese pronunciation: [tɨɾˈsɐjɾɐ]) is a volcanic island in the Azores archipelago, in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean. It is one of the larger islands of the archipelago, with a population of 56,000 inhabitants in an area of approximately 396.75 square kilometres (153.19 square miles). It is the location of the Azores' oldest city, Angra do Heroísmo, the historical capital of the archipelago and UNESCO World Heritage Site; the seat of the judicial system (Supreme Court); and the main Air Force base, Base Aérea nº 4 at Lajes, with a United States Air Force detachment.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Lab4Us said:


> My favorite (and first) NTH, in just the perfect color…as anyone who’s stood on the shore rocks of Terceira Island will tell you. It’s where I spent a lot of time n 1995-96.
> 
> *Terceira* (Portuguese pronunciation: [tɨɾˈsɐjɾɐ]) is a volcanic island in the Azores archipelago, in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean. It is one of the larger islands of the archipelago, with a population of 56,000 inhabitants in an area of approximately 396.75 square kilometres (153.19 square miles). It is the location of the Azores' oldest city, Angra do Heroísmo, the historical capital of the archipelago and UNESCO World Heritage Site; the seat of the judicial system (Supreme Court); and the main Air Force base, Base Aérea nº 4 at Lajes, with a United States Air Force detachment.
> 
> View attachment 16180565


I've been hovering on the cusp of ordering one of these lately. You're killing me.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Coriolanus said:


> I've been hovering on the cusp of ordering one of these lately. You're killing me.


My wrist is 7.0 inches if that helps 😂.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Lab4Us said:


> My favorite (and first) NTH, in just the perfect color…as anyone who’s stood on the shore rocks of Terceira Island will tell you. It’s where I spent a lot of time in 1995-96.
> 
> *Terceira* (Portuguese pronunciation: [tɨɾˈsɐjɾɐ]) is a volcanic island in the Azores archipelago, in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean. It is one of the larger islands of the archipelago, with a population of 56,000 inhabitants in an area of approximately 396.75 square kilometres (153.19 square miles). It is the location of the Azores' oldest city, Angra do Heroísmo, the historical capital of the archipelago and UNESCO World Heritage Site; the seat of the judicial system (Supreme Court); and the main Air Force base, Base Aérea nº 4 at Lajes, with a United States Air Force detachment.
> 
> View attachment 16180565


I've got mine on today as well.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Lab4Us said:


> NTH watch question. Should the 22mm Viton Strap fit on the new Devil Rays? I ask because I just spent the better part of 30 minutes trying to fit the orange Viton to the orange Devil Ray. I could get one side to stay put, get the pin inside the other lug, but no amount of manipulation would get that opposite side pin to hit the lug hole…almost like I couldn’t push the rubber hard enough against the case. Same happened on both sides of case and regardless of which lug I started with.
> 
> I just want to verify it’s supposed to fit before going at it again.


Phew what a PITA fitting the Viton to my DevilRay was! Looks decent all the same, wish it was blue though.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

bigvic said:


> Phew what a PITA fitting the Viton to my DevilRay was! Looks decent all the same, wish it was blue though.


lol, I gave up and just used regular rubber straps on my Devil Rays…put my black Viton back on the Thresher and my orange Viton,,,on nothing at the moment.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Lab4Us said:


> lol, I gave up and just used regular rubber straps on my Devil Rays…put my black Viton back on the Thresher and my orange Viton,,,on nothing at the moment.


Well that didn't last long, one of the spring bars obviously wasn't in securely and popped out! Luckily I was indoors so no harm done, but it eventually went back in although I'm now not 100% confident it won't go again. I might go back on a regular blue rubber strap.
I'm thinking of ordering a blue NickMankey hook strap as well, should arrive before Xmas... 🤞


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

bigvic said:


> Well that didn't last long, one of the spring bars obviously wasn't in securely and popped out! Luckily I was indoors so no harm done, but it eventually went back in although I'm now not 100% confident it won't go again. I might go back on a regular blue rubber strap.
> I'm thinking of ordering a blue NickMankey hook strap as well, should arrive before Xmas... 🤞


Reasonably priced rubber at strapsco.com. Ship pretty quick too. I think there’s still a buy 2 get 1 free promo…


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## Danny.Giannetti2 (Aug 17, 2021)




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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

got myself a kudu leather strap for the Antilles from Watchgecko , and I am really liking it.


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

FedEx visited me yesterday. When I opened up the box, then the case, my first view told me this was a keeper. Wasn't allowed to unwrap it further, as it is a birthday present for next month. but Mrs.Boots allowed me to take a quick couple of pics.

Thank you, NTH for doing this style dial and hands set in blue, and thank you to John of Watch Gauge, who is always pleasant, helpful and great to deal with. I love this watch!


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Mr.Boots said:


> FedEx visited me yesterday. When I opened up the box, then the case, my first view told me this was a keeper. Wasn't allowed to unwrap it further, as it is a birthday present for next month. but Mrs.Boots allowed me to take a quick couple of pics.
> 
> Thank you, NTH for doing this style dial and hands set in blue, and thank you to John of Watch Gauge, who is always pleasant, helpful and great to deal with. I love this watch!
> 
> ...


Congrats on your new acquisition. That dial is truly something special. Looking forward to mine landing sometime next week. 


Sent from a van down by the river…


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Taking a trip down to the beach with my Santa Cruz. My wife brought her kites to play with.























Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk

My phone seems to have screwed up loading the photos, dammit


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

As the nights start getting darker...............










Cheerz,

Alan.


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## Danny.Giannetti2 (Aug 17, 2021)

Danny.Giannetti2 said:


> View attachment 16182185


Was going for the Kiger Milsub look with a date.....pretty close (and since those dang Kiger MilSubs are so hard to find!!)


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Just a “my favorite watch” pic.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Out with the crew!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

RotorRonin said:


> Out with the crew!


What case did you use for that mod?

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> What case did you use for that mod?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Islander ISL-36.


----------



## StrapsCo (Jan 21, 2014)

Lab4Us said:


> Reasonably priced rubber at strapsco.com. Ship pretty quick too. I think there’s still a buy 2 get 1 free promo…


Yes, Buy 2 Get 1 FREE is still on


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

My Antilles was supposed to arrive yesterday. The mail lady had no problem finding a place to leave the electric bill....🤬


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Because because because because beeeecaaaaaaussssseee….because a wonderful watch it is!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> My Antilles was supposed to arrive yesterday. The mail lady had no problem finding a place to leave the electric bill....🤬
> View attachment 16184325


I'm so tired of seeing and hearing about shipping issues, for everyone. The couriers really need to get their poo gathered.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Another day with the Azores!


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Because because because because beeeecaaaaaaussssseee….because a wonderful watch it is!
> 
> View attachment 16184603


I'm not generally a double-denim/matchy-matchy type, and we may not be in Kansas anymore. But that rocks.

Cool watch, cool nato, great colour 👍


----------



## Gazza74 (Jul 27, 2013)

Waiting for this to arrive 











To keep this one company


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Here we go again. I didn't even get to removing the plastic yet but had to share a picture with you guys. It's too good.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> Here we go again. I didn't even get to removing the plastic yet but had to share a picture with you guys. It's too good.
> View attachment 16186777


Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Devil Ray Tuesday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#SwiftsureTuesday for me!


----------



## fissiontofallout (Aug 3, 2018)

CuriousBob said:


> I'm probably missing something but I'm curious. The description says luminous internal bezel, and the CAD (can't remember if that's what it's called) has lume but it looks like the bezel on the final product does not. I might just be being nosey but was there a reason for this?
> View attachment 16177555
> 
> View attachment 16177556


I just got my Antilles Hypnotic in, and it is very similar to the lower photo, very little lume on the internal bezel even after blasting with UV.

Edit to clarify: it is there, just faint, more like the photo than the render


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

CuriousBob said:


> Here we go again. I didn't even get to removing the plastic yet but had to share a picture with you guys. It's too good.
> View attachment 16186777


Great photo. Mrs. Boots bought me one for my birthday next month and these were the only pictures I was allowed to take. Didn't have to unwrap it to see it's a keeper. I love how the blue is denim blue in some lights, and has a turquoise blue tint in other lights, like in your picture.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Mr.Boots said:


> Great photo. Mrs. Boots bought me one for my birthday next month and these were the only pictures I was allowed to take. Didn't have to unwrap to see it's a keeper. i love how the blue is denim blue in some lights, and has a turquoise blue tint in other lights, like in your picture.
> 
> View attachment 16187566
> View attachment 16187568


Jeez Louisee, what a tease. Kinda like the bride giving you a flash, then telling you to keep your trousers hitched up until 'THE DAY' arrives. Just torture.


----------



## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Jeez Louisee, what a tease. Kinda like the bride giving you a flash, then telling you to keep your trousers hitched up until 'THE DAY' arrives. Just torture.


It keeps the marriage fresh, even after 45 years.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

kpjimmy said:


> Devil Ray Tuesday
> View attachment 16187513
> View attachment 16187514
> 
> ...


Just noticed... your Devil Ray in white is stylistically similar to your WUS avatar. Nice!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Just noticed... your Devil Ray in white is stylistically similar to your WUS avatar. Nice!


Not intentional by a long shot! Lol  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




----------



## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> Devil Ray Tuesday
> View attachment 16187513
> View attachment 16187514
> 
> ...


You know the more I see your pics of the white DevilRay the more I think I made the wrong choice with the sunburst blue...


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Yeah, the dial on this one is, dare I say, “Hypnotiq”…










Sent from a van down by the river…


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I did not size the bracelet or ogle over my Antilles last night because of a nasty headache. I regretted that decision all day at work.








My wicked little NTH collection.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

CuriousBob said:


> I did not size the bracelet or ogle over my Antilles last night because of a nasty headache. I regretted that decision all day at work.
> View attachment 16188726
> 
> My wicked little NTH collection.
> View attachment 16188734


 Very nice collection!!


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> Very nice collection!!


Thank you. The Nacken is my most worn watch. It's the only one that doesn't make it into the watch box when I'm wearing something else since I am sure to wear it the next day.


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

bigvic said:


> You know the more I see your pics of the white DevilRay the more I think I made the wrong choice with the sunburst blue...


The white is super sharp looking. I fought with myself over it for a while but in the end, the turquoise was a Must Have and the white was a Want to Have.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

CuriousBob said:


> The white is super sharp looking. I fought with myself over it for a while but in the end, the turquoise was a Must Have and the white was a Want to Have.


For me, the white is the "must have".









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> For me, the white is the "must have".
> View attachment 16188773
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Would you kindly stop posting pictures of it before it becomes a must have for me as well? 😆 Seriously though, that's a great looking watch.


----------



## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

Man those tropics are killing me, the teal one is especially stunning.

Need a boring old black antilles one day too


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

My Hirsch strap arrived, trying it on the Pelion first, then I'll swap the Kudu leather from my Antilles


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Thought I’d sport the Draken for a bit…reminds me how much bigger than the Devil Rays!


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Must be the season of the Witch … Devil Ray!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Wheels up…










Sent from a van down by the river…


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rare with-date Barracuda Blue available on eBay, with both oyster and BOR bracelets. I'm pretty sure we only assembled 10 pieces with date.

Seems to be in decent shape. Looks like he swapped the newer / longer clasp from the BOR onto the older v.1 Oyster bracelet, and vice-versa.

Not my listing.









NTH Sub V1 Barracuda Blue Rare Date Dial with Oyster and BoR Bracelets | eBay


For sale is a V1 NTH Barracuda with blue sunray dial and date at 6 o’clock.



www.ebay.com


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Down by river, I shot my baby Devil Ray…


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Lab4Us said:


> Down by river, I shot my baby Devil Ray…
> View attachment 16193668


Ah, 60's rock lyrics, first Donovan and now Neil Young, takes me back. The watches are cool also!


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

This one proved itself in some water today!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

An oldie, but a goodie.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

All these old school ones are awesome! Just found my bracelet for the Acionna this weekend. Keep in mind, if you know me, I'm a serial watch band changer so it's on rare occasions I go back to a bracelet after taking it off. I may look for my Cerberus bracelet now . 

This was my first micro and the rest is just history.
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sword hands rule.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Again today.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Clearly it's Tikuna Sunday! 










Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Clearly it's Tikuna Sunday!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Vail's finest work looking good

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Clearly it's Tikuna Sunday!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tikuna Matata!


----------



## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Finally, after going through a load of bracelets, NATO's and rubber straps I think I've found the one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rare Kiger up for sale on f29 - Keiger (NTH) Milsub - $600


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> All these old school ones are awesome! Just found my bracelet for the Acionna this weekend. Keep in mind, if you know me, I'm a serial watch band changer so it's on rare occasions I go back to a bracelet after taking it off. I may look for my Cerberus bracelet now .
> 
> This was my first micro and the rest is just history.
> View attachment 16195617
> ...


Love it! I sold my blue dial Acionna years ago to fund ever more....silly of me, because it is one of doc's best blues yet!

I will try to remember to go Cerb tomorrow


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Dinner is almost ready…










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Danny.Giannetti2 (Aug 17, 2021)

Folks,

question (perhaps for Doc or any other NTH expert): have an Amphion commando (Date) that's running at -30/40 per day. 

Can I trust any watchmaker to regulate the 9015? Or should I send it to Dan for regulation?...or does it need a service already?

THX and take care


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Danny.Giannetti2 said:


> Folks,
> 
> question (perhaps for Doc or any other NTH expert): have an Amphion commando (Date) that's running at -30/40 per day.
> 
> ...


We don't really "service" those movements per se, if that means disassembling one, cleaning all the parts, then lubricating and re-assembling them. If we determine the movement isn't running well enough, even after an attempt at regulation, and especially if we find other indications of a problem, we just replace it.

Before we rush to judgment, though, we should do some troubleshooting. The first question we'd ask is if you're hand-winding it at all before wearing it. More often than not, we find timekeeping and random stopping or power reserve issues are due to the watch being still most of the time, even while being worn, though we don't often find it's a problem with the Japanese movements, which seem to be fairly efficient auto-winders.

To troubleshoot - hand-wind the watch to full power by giving the crown 40 full 360 degree turns, then set it down, and see how long it runs. Do that in every position - dial up, dial down, crown up, crown down, 12 up, 12 down, until you find a position in which it doesn't seem to run as long as it should.

You could also check the timekeeping in each position while you do the above. If you find that it stops running sooner than it should (sooner than 40 hours), or loses a lot of time, in one or more positions, we should probably take a look at it.

If you have a timegrapher, you can check the amplitude and timekeeping instantly. Amplitude at full power on the Miyotas should be in the high 200's (over 280) range dial-up / dial down, and I'd say no lower than 250-ish in the crown positions.

Email customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com if you find something doesn't seem right after doing that troubleshooting.


----------



## Danny.Giannetti2 (Aug 17, 2021)

Awesome thx again Doc. I will test the steps above. I've been wearing the watch every day since acquiring it (2 weeks ago)..love it especially with the replacement bezel. Basically a Kiger MilSub with a date!

I wind it once in a while but trust my daily wrist movement to take care of the normal winding. Don't have a timegrapher and perhaps now's the time to invest in one. Been in this situation so many times being a collector....

THX again for your speedy reply. Will test and let you know.

;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Danny.Giannetti2 said:


> Awesome thx again Doc. I will test the steps above. I've been wearing the watch every day since acquiring it (2 weeks ago)..love it especially with the replacement bezel. Basically a Kiger MilSub with a date!
> 
> I wind it once in a while but trust my daily wrist movement to take care of the normal winding. Don't have a timegrapher and perhaps now's the time to invest in one. Been in this situation so many times being a collector....
> 
> ...


Everyone thinks they're moving around enough to keep an automatic fully wound. Some are. Some aren't, especially if they're putting the watch on when it's low on power, and mostly riding a desk all day.

Most people don't realize how much more efficient hand-winding is, compared to auto-winding. The crown needs 40 revolutions to reach full power. The rotor needs over 1,000. 

Assuming each back-and-forth swing of your wrist is 1/3 of a turn on the uni-directional winder, you'd need to swing your wrist over 3,000 times per day to go from dead stop to full power. 

Even with bi-directional winders, which many people think of as being more efficient, there's a dead spot at each side of the rotor's swing. For about 20 degrees in each direction, it's not doing anything, just free-wheeling.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ghosting another Monday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

This guy hasn’t left my wrist since last Wednesday, and accompanied me to Las Vegas for the weekend. Lots of memories built into it already. 

As a side note, was super happy to see the Raiders get the victory yesterday, but was also really surprised / impressed at how well the Eagles fans travel; there were a LOT of them out here supporting their team. Good stuff for sure. 











Sent from a van down by the river…


----------



## ocoee (Oct 4, 2018)

Danny.Giannetti2 said:


> Folks,
> 
> question (perhaps for Doc or any other NTH expert): have an Amphion commando (Date) that's running at -30/40 per day.
> 
> ...


If it suddenly started losing that much time, I'd put it near a compass to see if it's magnetized.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Thought I’d share one of my tactikewl pieces…


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Thought I’d share one of my tactikewl pieces…
> View attachment 16199254
> 
> 
> View attachment 16199256


EDIT - Seriously? No one saw that I was joking here?

Making the bezel also a level is a cool feature. Wish I'd have thought of that. Next time try to hold your wrist parallel to the ground, so we can see the bubble in the doo-hickeys at 12 and 3. Make it look like this:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ocoee said:


> If it suddenly started losing that much time, I'd put it near a compass to see if it's magnetized.


It's possible I'm wrong, but my understanding is that magnetization would always / only cause a watch to run fast. Explanation is something about the balance spring sticks to itself, shortening it, causing the balance to swing faster, and the watch to speed up.

I think that's increasing amplitude, whereas a watch running slow would most likely have lower amplitude (I think).

I'm not a watchmaker. It's just my layman's understanding from watchmakers. I know I've seen guys on the forum argue about it, and I don't want to argue with anyone.


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

I've heard a watchmaker say it's possible for magnetization to slow down a watch movement, though I don't really get the physics around that. It seems speeding up is a more common effect anyway.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

So a watch maker isn’t a watchmaker, but the watch maker got a word from a watchmaker with watch wisdom. But, a watch wearer told the watch maker that a watchmaker told the watch wearer that the watch maker’s words of watch wisdom from the watch maker’s watchmaker were wrong. Right?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

All righty then....


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> So a watch maker isn’t a watchmaker, but the watch maker got a word from a watchmaker with watch wisdom. But, a watch wearer told the watch maker that a watchmaker told the watch wearer that the watch maker’s words of watch wisdom from the watch maker’s watchmaker were wrong. Right?


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Ghosting another Monday
> View attachment 16198647
> View attachment 16198649
> 
> ...


Recently there was a thread about if California dials were becoming popular again. Now, I'm not a big fan of them in general but everytime that somebody said that they HATE California dials, I was thinking to myself that they must not have seen this one yet.

Definitely my favorite that I have seen so far and also the only one that I ever really remembered.


----------



## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

docvail said:


> It's possible I'm wrong, but my understanding is that magnetization would always / only cause a watch to run fast. Explanation is something about the balance spring sticks to itself, shortening it, causing the balance to swing faster, and the watch to speed up.
> 
> I think that's increasing amplitude, whereas a watch running slow would most likely have lower amplitude (I think).
> 
> I'm not a watchmaker. It's just my layman's understanding from watchmakers. I know I've seen guys on the forum argue about it, and I don't want to argue with anyone.


The majority of cases a magnetized watch will run faster, but not always. I know from experience. I've had a couple over the years that started losing time out of nowhere, ran them over my demag and they went right back to where they were.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

CuriousBob said:


> Recently there was a thread about if California dials were becoming popular again. Now, I'm not a big fan of them in general but everytime that somebody said that they HATE California dials, I was thinking to myself that they must not have seen this one yet.
> 
> Definitely my favorite that I have seen so far and also the only one that I ever really remembered.


Anyone who knows what a California dial is … is by definition a watch nerd. Same with “lume pip” and “coin edge bezel” and so many other weird terms we throw around without thinking. Just sayin’ … it’s a weird little subculture. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

rcorreale said:


> The majority of cases a magnetized watch will run faster, but not always. I know from experience. I've had a couple over the years that started losing time out of nowhere, ran them over my demag and they went right back to where they were.


And there is no harm in running them through a demagnatiser...I got a cheapy off the Bay. Does the trick. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

Goodness, doing a little browsing and saw this black antilles from a while back. Gimme gimme

Any chance of this coming back?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jjmc87 said:


> Goodness, doing a little browsing and saw this black antilles from a while back. Gimme gimme
> 
> Any chance of this coming back?


Never say never, but doubtful.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#2Krown2uesday!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Danny.Giannetti2 (Aug 17, 2021)

Doc,

update.....wound up my Amphion to full charge (per your suggestion) and let it sit face up for 2 days. 

Power reserve was impressive (about 47 hours). On the second day it was about -30 sec/day.

Will repeat the process face down and will share the results in 2 days.

THX and take care!!!


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Tropics here, Tropics there, Tropics Tropics everywhere!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Danny.Giannetti2 said:


> Doc,
> 
> update.....wound up my Amphion to full charge (per your suggestion) and let it sit face up for 2 days.
> 
> ...


Try demagnetizing it. I don't think it's magnetized, but it can't hurt to see if that has any effect.

If demagnetizing it doesn't sort it out, it may need to be regulated.

Contact us at customer support. We'll get it sorted.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Danny.Giannetti2 said:


> Doc,
> 
> update.....wound up my Amphion to full charge (per your suggestion) and let it sit face up for 2 days.
> 
> ...


Reference all the other suggestions about demagnetizing, search one of the big shopping sites (Amaz, Ebaie, etc) and you're looking for a demagnetizer that looks like a small blue box with a red button and a little red light on it. They run $10-15 usd, and they will pay for themselves countless times. I've magnetized several different watches, and my blue box has fixed all of them...


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> Reference all the other suggestions about demagnetizing, search one of the big shopping sites (Amaz, Ebaie, etc) and you're looking for a demagnetizer that looks like a small blue box with a red button and a little red light on it. They run $10-15 usd, and they will pay for themselves countless times. I've magnetized several different watches, and my blue box has fixed all of them...
> 
> View attachment 16203058


I went with one of these... it's a bit MRI'ish... at least you don't have to sit inside it

Also got mine off one of those Asian sites... cheap as works well. 










Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#ThresherThursday


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My wife just left to visit her parents for three days. I knew this trip was coming up, but there's no stopping the feeling of sheer panic when it takes hold. 

I can't help thinking, "how do I make cereal? What if I'm in the bathroom and run out of toilet paper? Do I know where the boys' birth certificates are? Who's going to get up and see what that scary noise in the middle of the night was?"


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Gather the boys around:

"OK, y'all are in charge. Now get in the kitchen and make me a sammich!"


----------



## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Gather the boys around:
> 
> "OK, y'all are in charge. Now get in the kitchen and make me a sammich!"


And then this happens...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> My wife just left to visit her parents for three days. I knew this trip was coming up, but there's no stopping the feeling of sheer panic when it takes hold.
> 
> I can't help thinking, "how do I make cereal? What if I'm in the bathroom and run out of toilet paper? Do I know where the boys' birth certificates are? Who's going to get up and see what that scary noise in the middle of the night was?"


Gotcha covered, Doc:

Q: How do I make cereal?
A: 1 part cereal, 1 part milk, 1 large bag of M&M's. Shake violently.

Q: What if I'm in the bathroom and run out of toilet paper?
A: Hand towels.

Q: Do I know where the boys' birth certificates are?
A: No, and that's because she wants it that way. See question about toilet paper above.

Q: Who's going to get up and see what that scary noise in the middle of the night was?
A: It's a Rolex patent attorney.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Sent from a van down by the river…


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Finally got a few side-by-side photos of the V1 and V2 subs. Not sure yet which case I prefer!

Note, the V1 isn’t actually taller, it’s just sitting different on the buckle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Q: What if I'm in the bathroom and run out of toilet paper?
> A: Hand towels.


True story, involving my ex-brother-in-law, also a former Army Ranger, and (unlike me) a grizzled combat veteran:

No one:

Absolutely no one:

Seriously, no one at all:

My ex-brother-in-law: "Sometimes I'd be out in the woods hunting, and need to [evacuate my bowels]. That's when I knew I'd be coming out of the woods with one less sock..."

Me: "...why are you telling us this at Thanksgiving dinner?"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Finally got a few side-by-side photos of the V1 and V2 subs. Not sure yet which case I prefer!
> 
> Note, the V1 isn’t actually taller, it’s just sitting different on the buckle.


I think the v.2's look / feel thinner, even if they're not.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I think the v.2's look / feel thinner, even if they're not.


Speaking of v2s... I know sometimes you have spare cases floating around. Would that be the case here? 

If yes, I'll get in contact through your site. If no, "well, damn."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Speaking of v2s... I know sometimes you have spare cases floating around. Would that be the case here?
> 
> If yes, I'll get in contact through your site. If no, "well, damn."


No. Just DLC v.1 cases.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> No. Just DLC v.1 cases.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

docvail said:


> True story, involving my ex-brother-in-law, also a former Army Ranger, and (unlike me) a grizzled combat veteran:
> 
> No one:
> 
> ...


We used to use maple leaves in the boy scouts.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rcorreale said:


> We used to use maple leaves in the boy scouts.


Careful, brother. There are Canadians on this forum...


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16204099


Love the look of the steel bezel .


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Original “Can’t You Hear Me Knocking” lyrics by Rolling Stones, 1971…track 4, album Sticky Fingers…

Yeah, you got a cool orange hand
Yeah, you got a rubber band
Y’all got a target face
Yeah, you got hella accuracy

Can't you hear me knockin' on your winder?
Can't you hear me knockin' on its door?
Can't you hear me knockin' in your dreams?
Yeah

[Chorus 1]
Help me baby, I’m addicted
Help me baby, I’m addicted
Help me baby, I’m addicted


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Out for a walk with the wife at Burghley House. Some of you may recognize it as it gets used in film and tv a lot, most recently for the new Batman and Flash movies, as well as The Crown series on Netflix.

This Santa Fe is a real beauty and the subtle changes to hands, bezel and bracelet really make it shine.
















Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> True story, involving my ex-brother-in-law, also a former Army Ranger, and (unlike me) a grizzled combat veteran:
> 
> No one:
> 
> ...


No combat vet here, but I have come out of the woods after some hunting or hiking trips with 1 sock or a missing sleeve


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Look what I couldn't resist. Apparently it'll arrive from Watchgecko within a few days.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

SteamJ said:


> Look what I couldn't resist. Apparently it'll arrive from Watchgecko within a few days.
> 
> View attachment 16209486


It will arrive quick! I think mine was three business days from release date to my door…UK to Texas…

Added: …and CONGRATULATION! You’ll love it!


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Careful, brother. There are Canadians on this forum...
> 
> View attachment 16208411


We only have spruce and pine in the west…


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

captainmorbid said:


> We only have spruce and pine in the west…
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Downunder we just use the eucalypts.. of course if you prefer triple ply comfort you could just use the koala... damn sharp claws but..










Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> Look what I couldn't resist. Apparently it'll arrive from Watchgecko within a few days.
> 
> View attachment 16209486


My finger has been hovering on the buy button since these were launched.
Anyone how has a devilray - how so they wear with a standard 22mm strap? Is there a gap between the strap and the case?


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Happy Halloween 







































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> It will arrive quick! I think mine was three business days from release date to my door…UK to Texas…
> 
> Added: …and CONGRATULATION! You’ll love it!


Where are you in Texas? I'm in the DFW area.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> Look what I couldn't resist. Apparently it'll arrive from Watchgecko within a few days.
> 
> View attachment 16209486


Yea another Texan wit the Polar!  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> Yea another Texan wit the Polar!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Almost. I'm a transplant from NY but I've been here since 2005.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> My finger has been hovering on the buy button since these were launched.
> Anyone how has a devilray - how so they wear with a standard 22mm strap? Is there a gap between the strap and the case?


Not much if any, depending on strap thickness. Short lug length helps.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> Almost. I'm a transplant from NY but I've been here since 2005.


Transplant from LI NY here from 2009!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Johnboy0103 said:


> My finger has been hovering on the buy button since these were launched.
> Anyone how has a devilray - how so they wear with a standard 22mm strap? Is there a gap between the strap and the case?


Both third-party straps. One from uncle seiko and other is Bartons elite silicone.
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Not much if any, depending on strap thickness. Short lug length helps.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Yep, it's definitely minimal. This is actually my second time getting one. I've been on the hunt for a white dial watch I loved and this nails is. No surprise though as I already knew it was an awesome watch.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Cheers for the info, massive strap gap is one of the reasons I'm letting go of my Seiko Sumo, looks ridiculous on any 2 piece strap


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Cheers for the info, massive strap gap is one of the reasons I'm letting go of my Seiko Sumo, looks ridiculous on any 2 piece strap


Han you tried curved springbars?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Have wanted an Odin ever since I saw the model, unfortunately by that time they were gone.

Managed to get a good used on off ebay, thrilled with it. Size is wonderful and I normally favour bigger watches, this 40 has more wrist presence than its dimensions suggest.

I'm calling it the goldilocks



















Did I mention the lume :-0


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Groundhog Day!


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

SteamJ said:


> Where are you in Texas? I'm in the DFW area.


Just South of Abilene…about 200 miles West of you, give or take.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> Just South of Abilene…about 200 miles West of you, give or take.


I know of the area. I've never been there specifically but I've been to Midland/Odessa and Dyess AFB is a big customer I deal with. It's a bit of a distance but you should join our FB group for our monthly DFW GTG. If you're ever in the area then you can join us: Facebook Groups


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

SteamJ said:


> I know of the area. I've never been there specifically but I've been to Midland/Odessa and Dyess AFB is a big customer I deal with. It's a bit of a distance but you should join our FB group for our monthly DFW GTG. If you're ever in the area then you can join us: Facebook Groups


Thanks, but I do zero social media…no facebook, no meta 😂😂😂😂😂, no twitter, no tiktok, nothing but a few forums of my interests…watches, biking, Jeep, and a few that cover those tools we’re not allowed to discuss here.

Spent lots of time at Dyess in lots of different units. Stationed there in 1985, then a couple short tour/deployments over the years and right back. Finished up at Dyess doing 10 years in civil service after I retired from AD.


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> Thanks, but I do zero social media…no facebook, no meta 😂😂😂😂😂, no twitter, no tiktok, nothing but a few forums of my interests…watches, biking, Jeep, and a few that cover those tools we’re not allowed to discuss here.
> 
> Spent lots of time at Dyess in lots of different units. Stationed there in 1985, then a couple short tour/deployments over the years and right back. Finished up at Dyess doing 10 years in civil service after I retired from AD.


No social media? No problem. We have a thread on WUS as well: The Official DFW WIS Meetup Thread - 2nd Saturday of...

One of our regular members also has a BSHT sub.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> Look what I couldn't resist. Apparently it'll arrive from Watchgecko within a few days.
> 
> View attachment 16209486


I just pulled the trigger on one of these, will be interesting to see how it wears after having the Odin on wrist for the last week


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Going OG again this Monday with the Lew and Huey Cerberus. I don't think I ever had it on the bracelet lol. Well first time for anything!
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Strawberry Alarm Clock 1967…

Good sense, innocence, cripplin' mankind
Dead kings, many things I can't define
Occasions, persuasions clutter your mind
Incense and peppermints, the color of time


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Chicago…1969

As I was walking down the street one day
A man came up to me and asked me what the time was that was on my watch, yeah
And I said
Does anybody really know what time it is (I don't)
Does anybody really care (care about time)
If so I can't imagine why (no, no)
We've all got time enough to cry


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> It will arrive quick! I think mine was three business days from release date to my door…UK to Texas…
> 
> Added: …and CONGRATULATION! You’ll love it!


You weren't kidding about the speed. I ordered this past weekend and it's delivering from the UK tomorrow. And they're throwing in 2 extra straps and a watch roll when you buy an NTH so amazing service.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tikuna Tuesday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

White Dial Wednesday


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Loving the matte white dial.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> Loving the matte white dial.
> 
> View attachment 16217011


Congratulations! I do like mine as well as you know lol 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)




----------



## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

captainmorbid said:


> We only have spruce and pine in the west…
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Ouch!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Time Has Come Today…1967…The Chambers Brothers

Time has come today
Young hearts can go their way
Can't put it off another day
I don't care what others say
They say we don't listen anyway
Time has come today
(Hey)
Oh
The rules have changed today (Hey)
I have no place to stay (Hey)
I'm thinking about the subway (Hey)
My love has flown away (Hey)
My tears have come and gone (Hey)
Oh my Lord, I have to roam (Hey)
I have no home (Hey)
I have no home (Hey)
Now the time has come (Time)
There's no place to run (Time)
I might get burned up by the sun (Time)
But I had my fun (Time)
I've been loved and put aside (Time)
I've been crushed by the tumbling tide (Time)
And my soul has been psychedelicized (Time)
Now the time has come (Time)
There are things to realize (Time)
Time has come today (Time)
Time has come today (Time)
Time [x11]
Oh
Now the time has come (Time)
There's no place to run (Time)
I might get burned up by the sun (Time)
But I had my fun (Time)
I've been loved and put aside (Time)
I've been crushed by tumbling tide (Time)
And my soul has been psychedelicized (Time)
Now the time has come (Time)
There are things to realize (Time)
Time has come today (Time)
Time has come today (Time)
Time [x4]
Yeah


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

It's had some fierce competition lately but this one is still the Go-To most mornings. The only downside is that it is starting to ruin some of my thicker watches for me.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I am back offshore again, different boat this time and different corner of the world. These are the watch choices I brought this time. The Direnzo was mainly for travelling and my 7 day hotel quarantine as we are not allowed metal bracelets at work.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

rcorreale said:


> Ouch!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


FINALLY! 

Twas tough, but we are all hard asses…


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Random interjection here....
Doc, you and Archer trading blows.... Great reading.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Random interjection here....
> Doc, you and Archer trading blows.... Great reading.
> View attachment 16219217


One of many such exchanges I've had here, after which I wish I'd simply ignored the other person's jabs, rather than responding, however courteously I tried.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

SteamJ said:


> Almost. I'm a transplant from NY but I've been here since 2005.


16 years = Texan!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> One of many such exchanges I've had here, after which I wish I'd simply ignored the other person's jabs, rather than responding, however courteously I tried.


Off to find this...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

rpm1974 said:


> #NTHursday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That combo looks great Rusty. What strap is that. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Off to find this...


I'm also on a temp ban from Facebook, under review since Sunday. Not sure what I posted, only that it was way back in June of last year. I think I saw something FB said about suicide not being funny, so my hunch is it was Epstein related.

This being honest on the innerwebz stuff is fun, but also kinda dangerous.

I want it on record now, just in case...I didn't kill myself.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I want it on record now, just in case...I didn't kill myself.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Errr, well if ya did.... can I have all your watches? Pretty please? 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm also on a temp bam from Facebook, under review since Sunday. Not sure what I posted, only that it was way back in June of last year. I think I saw something FB said about suicide not being funny, so my hunch is it was Epstein related.
> 
> This being honest on the innerwebz stuff is fun, but also kinda dangerous.
> 
> ...


Quoted for record to protect the name of Vail

I have a hard time holding back honesty if I allow myself to make a "real" post. It is why most of my posts are garbage lol


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm also on a temp bam from Facebook, under review since Sunday. Not sure what I posted, only that it was way back in June of last year. I think I saw something FB said about suicide not being funny, so my hunch is it was Epstein related.
> 
> This being honest on the innerwebz stuff is fun, but also kinda dangerous.
> 
> ...


I agree that suicide isn't funny, but that's beside the point, as Epstein clearly didn't kill himself.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> That combo looks great Rusty. What strap is that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I think it’s one of the quick release straps from Cheapest Natos. I bought a few a while back during one of their sales. It’s not bad. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Errr, well if ya did.... can I have all your watches? Pretty please?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


True Story - 

As it happens, soon after we sold out of the Spectre II, I was able to buy one used in mint condition, a blue no-date with orange seconds hand, with the intention of eventually giving it to one or the other of my two sons, but most likely my younger son. 

Anyways - he turns 16 in two days, and he's kind of a clothes (and accessories) horse, so I gave it to him last night. He's been a real a-hole around the house lately, so it was nice to see him lighten up and show some real gratitude.

One less watch in the case now, bringing the collection down to 16.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Styx…1981

Too much time on my hands
It's tick tick tick tick ticking away (Too much time on my hands)
Now I don't know what to do with myself (Too much time on my hands)
Too much time on my hands
Too much time on my hands
Too much time on my hands


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## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a sneak peek at the two new v.2 Subs versions coming in January.


















The Todaro is a matte black dial with printed markers. 

The Upolder has a "basket-weave" dial texture, with applied indices. We're kind of going for this sort of look, based on an old Glashutte Spezimatic:










Both will be available on the standard oyster or BOR bracelet.

Inspiration came from a wide variety of vintage designs, nothing in particular. They're not really an "homage" of any one thing.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Quoted for record to protect the name of Vail
> 
> I have a hard time holding back honesty if I allow myself to make a "real" post. It is why most of my posts are garbage lol


Godfrey, this post came to mind

One such thread where I am better off offering no posts with actual thought involved...



https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/do-you-believe-that-climate-change-is-real.5353909/#post-54224422


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Here's a sneak peek at the two new v.2 Subs versions coming in January.
> 
> View attachment 16220624
> 
> ...


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)




----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Here's a sneak peek at the two new v.2 Subs versions coming in January.
> 
> View attachment 16220624
> 
> ...


Oh wow, they are way out there. I get a bit of a Vostok vibe from the Torado, with paddle hands and the numerals










Very bold and distinct designs, making the Tikuna looks positively tame in comparison


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Here's a sneak peek at the two new v.2 Subs versions coming in January.
> 
> View attachment 16220624
> 
> ...


Gorgeous!

Not for nuthin', but painting the bezel triangle yellow around the lumed pip (or alternatively, painting the pip yellow and leaving the triangle lumed) would be a nice accent, IMHO. But you do you.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Tudor doing a Nacken homage...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Oh wow, they are way out there. I get a bit of a Vostok vibe from the Torado, with paddle hands and the numerals
> 
> View attachment 16221829
> 
> ...


I have a "Skunk Works" folder on my laptop, where I keep images of anything I like, for future reference. The way we've been doing design work the last few years, going in starts and stops, by the time we're done, it's been so long since we started, I don't always remember what we were looking at when we got this or that idea. I'll have to go back and look at what's in that folder.

I don't specifically remember looking at any Vostoks, but it's certainly possible. I did always like that '67 Amphibia re-issue they made, and the hands are similar to those on the Upholder. I'd been wanting to use that specific handset on something for a while.

I know the Todaro dial took some inspiration from Anonimo and Eterna. I remember talking with Aaron, saying I wanted to do something that was sort of an update to the concept of the "Big Number Pilot" (3-6-9-12). 

I forget where I saw it, but I was looking at pictures of scuba divers, just looking for some inspiration, and I saw someone with a double-barrel spear-gun. That turned into geek-fodder for me and Aaron for a while. We started thinking about the "double-barrel" concept, like when a diver has two air tanks.

We liked the idea of doing a double-0 at 12, especially on a dive watch. It also sort of reminded us of a scuba mask, especially if you turn the watch upside down, and look at it with the mark above it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16222272
> 
> 
> Tudor doing a Nacken homage...


I had to Google it.

So...from what I gather, Tudor made some of these for the French Navy recently? But there's talk about a civilian version?

I like it.

I'd like it better with 300m WR, more chamfered case sides, and standard lugs, plus a bracelet, but I'm sure they'll sell a gazillion of them.






EDIT/PS - more about it here - FRIDAY WIND DOWN: What the Beckham Tudor Pelagos hopefully implies...

Apparently the Beckham version has four lines of text, in keeping with the recent Tudor/Rolex tradition of maximizing their use of dial space.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There's a two-months old thread about it in the Rolex & Tudor forum, complete with a shout-out to NTH...









Tudor x Marine Nationale Pelagos


Just going to put this here… Those fixed bars though!




www.watchuseek.com


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

It will be cool if it's a Pelagos design, in a BB58 size case. If that thing is 42mm, forget it. I love the countdown bezel. As much as the solid ends for NATO are wicked tacticool, a civilian version with drilled lugs and a bracelet option would be my choice.

But I'm sure it will more that I'd want to pay, anyway...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> It will be cool if it's a Pelagos design, in a BB58 size case. If that thing is 42mm, forget it. I love the countdown bezel. As much as the solid ends for NATO are wicked tacticool, a civilian version with drilled lugs and a bracelet option would be my choice.
> 
> But I'm sure it will more that I'd want to pay, anyway...


Solid end would kill it for me. I am not anti-pass-through, but I do not want it to be my only choice


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Time…Pink Floyd…Dark Side of the Moon…1973

Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
Fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your hometown
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

Tired of lying in the sunshine, staying home to watch the rain
You are young and life is long, and there is time to kill today
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> It will be cool if it's a Pelagos design, in a BB58 size case. If that thing is 42mm, forget it. I love the countdown bezel. As much as the solid ends for NATO are wicked tacticool, a civilian version with drilled lugs and a bracelet option would be my choice.
> 
> But I'm sure it will more that I'd want to pay, anyway...


The case gives me a Squale vibe. 

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Solid end would kill it for me. I am not anti-pass-through, but I do not want it to be my only choice


Agreed.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

..and a “just because it was sunny outside” shot…


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> The case gives me a Squale vibe.


With the smaller crown guards, I thought it was even more NTH v2 Sub-like. 

You're a fully indexed countdown bezel away from a pretty convincing homage with the Nacken series...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Omegafanboy said:


> Love this combination, I think I need to get a white rubber strap for some of my white divers (maybe the Santa Fe)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


The Santa Fe is a terrible watch. You should sell it. To me.



docvail said:


> Why can't you guys send me stuff like this?
> 
> View attachment 16153829
> View attachment 16153830
> ...


My story is similar. Mostly a lurker. The Thresher spoke to me for a number of reasons. Super glad to make it my first NTH.



Omegafanboy said:


> Out for a walk with the wife at Burghley House. Some of you may recognize it as it gets used in film and tv a lot, most recently for the new Batman and Flash movies, as well as The Crown series on Netflix.
> 
> This Santa Fe is a real beauty and the subtle changes to hands, bezel and bracelet really make it shine.
> 
> ...


Terrible watch. You should get rid of it.


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I sneaked a shot of the Captains chair on the bridge, sat admiring my Antilles whilst contemplating which of the new Subs I'd be ordering as a late Christmas present to me.....


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

josiahg52 said:


> The Santa Fe is a terrible watch. You should sell it. To me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never going to happen 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'm also on a temp ban from Facebook, under review since Sunday. Not sure what I posted, only that it was way back in June of last year. I think I saw something FB said about suicide not being funny, so my hunch is it was Epstein related.
> 
> This being honest on the innerwebz stuff is fun, but also kinda dangerous.
> 
> ...


Update on this...

I'm still banned from Facebook, not even able to view my own account, unlike past temp bans, where I could at least log in and look around. Now, this is all I see:










Today, when I clicked on that link (for the first time, because I don't give a $hlt about FB's "community standards"), it took me to their "Regulated Goods" page, having to do with items you can't list for sale, such as firearms, bladed weapons, human blood (I'm not kidding), controlled substances, and endangered species.









Restricted Goods and Services| Transparency Center


Meta regularly publishes reports to give our community visibility into community standards enforcement, government requests and internet disruptions




transparency.fb.com





I'm suddenly convinced it has nothing at all to do with any nonsense I've posted or shenanigans I've been involved in, and instead has everything to do with the Tropics names - they're all named after alcoholic beverages.

I think the trouble started with adding the Tropics, most likely the Azores Absinthe, to our Facebook business page web store. I think their actions are all driven by AI / algorithms scanning for the use of terms related to banned items. No one is looking at our watches and thinking we're selling alcohol, but their bots may be.

I can't even get into my account, so I can't investigate further. I have to get my marketing department to do it for me.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> "Regulated Goods" page, having to do with items you can't list for sale, such as firearms, bladed weapons, human blood (I'm not kidding), controlled substances, and endangered species.


What about _non_-human blood?


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> What about _non_-human blood?


That’s what killed the NTH Black Pudding dials…


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

That's strange - I think I saw FB trying to market actual absinthe to me, at some point...

In any case, here's a pic of a watch:










Have to say, as much as I hate to scratch up a watch, I don't mind seeing beauty marks on this one. 

Looks like I am likely to end up with an @hwa special, the blue Scorpene in a 36mm Alpha case...

Hey, anyone with a Scorpene white, lume dial, looking to sell? Hit me up...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

This is what I'm talking about:

NTH Nacken Modern Blue










With Odin Blue bezel










Gets you within 90% of that new Tudor. I mean, no countdown bezel, and other details notwithstanding, of course...


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

The Moody Blues…1967…Tuesday Afternoon…Album Days of Future Passed

aaaaannnnddd…NEW WATCH BAND DAY!!!

Tuesday afternoon
I'm just beginning to see
Now I'm on my way
It doesn't matter to me
Chasing the clouds away

Something calls to me
The trees are drawing me near
I've got to find out why
Those gentle voices I hear
Explain it all with a sigh

I'm looking at myself reflections of my mind
It's just the kind of day to leave myself behind
So gently swaying through the fairyland of love
If you'll just come with me you'll see the beauty of
Tuesday afternoon
Tuesday afternoon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> This is what I'm talking about:
> 
> NTH Nacken Modern Blue
> 
> ...


I love the idea of what Tudor is doing, just not the way it's being executed.

Speaking of which...

I was just in my local independent watchmaker's shop, trying to get him and his wife to translate some watch info from French, and there was a guy with an entirely convincing fake vintage Tudor Submariner (Merc hands / Milsub dial pattern). He said he found out it was a fake after he bought it, but he gets so many compliments on it, he decided to just keep it and wear it.

I had to admit, it was a gorgeous watch, and as I said, entirely convincing.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

No fake Tudor here, just jen-you-wine NTH, albeit an older version.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pics from that thread in the Rolex & Tudor forum...

















No confirmation yet on size, but judging by the side-by-side comparison to the standard Pelagos, it doesn't look much smaller, especially if the pic was taken with a mobile phone, and the Pelagos sitting up on its clasp, higher (closer to the lens) than the new one. 

It does have one less line of text on the dial, though, so there's that.

People are saying it's 41mm x ~12.5mm thick. I guess that would make the case sort of a Pelagos-Black Bay hybrid.

The straight edge between the lugs and the deeper cuts on the bezel teeth definitely remind me of the Squale Matic 600 case.


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> That's strange - I think I saw FB trying to market actual absinthe to me, at some point...


It's OK if FB is getting paid.


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I collect yoyos too but my funds for that hobby keep getting diverted somehow...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> I collect yoyos too but my funds for that hobby keep getting diverted somehow...
> View attachment 16228884


You can't play with my yo-yo.


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks @Doc for the background on the design. Never heard of Anonimo.

Re: the new Pelagos. Dunno. Somehow this design doesn't really flow for me, if that makes sense. Like the parts are there, individually, but don't come together to form a coherent whole. And something that bugs me about the pics is that they all appear to be hiding the crown guards. What's up with that? 

But yea, old next to new, it doesn't look like it'll be any smaller. Maybe it makes sense to Tudor, to keep the Pelagos line more distinct from the BB line, but to me it's a bit of a missed opportunity. Sadly, the rehaute surrounding the markers doesn't seem to have survived the facelift


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Dug out this oldie today. Its a Hugh and Louie or some such. Commander 300.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Thanks @Doc for the background on the design. Never heard of Anonimo.
> 
> Re: the new Pelagos. Dunno. Somehow this design doesn't really flow for me, if that makes sense. Like the parts are there, individually, but don't come together to form a coherent whole. And something that bugs me about the pics is that they all appear to be hiding the crown guards. What's up with that?
> 
> But yea, old next to new, it doesn't look like it'll be any smaller. Maybe it makes sense to Tudor, to keep the Pelagos line more distinct from the BB line, but to me it's a bit of a missed opportunity. Sadly, the rehaute surrounding the markers doesn't seem to have survived the facelift


Pretty sure there are a couple pics showing the crown guards in that thread in the Rolex & Tudor forum. They look similar to the standard Pelagos.

If Tudor took the 39mm case of the BB58, and just made a Snowflake Sub version with it, that would have made more sense to me. If they took the standard Pelagos, and shrunk it down to 39mm or 40mm, and made it steel rather than titanium, or even kept the titanium, but also removed the notched rehaut, that would have made sense too.

The fixed bar lugs make me want it less, not more.

Still, my understanding is that this will be "limited" in some way. I wouldn't be surprised if they sell out instantly, and if so, it wouldn't surprise me if Tudor then reveals a version without the fixed bar lugs.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Van Halen, 1977
Ooh, yeah
(Ahh)
Runnin' with the Devil
(Ahh-hah, yeah)
(Woo-hoo-oo)
Runnin' with the Devil
Yes I'm, yeah, hoo


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Not sure what is going on with Tapatalk but none of the pictures are showing recently. It's so annoying as I am not seeing any of the latest NTH watches being posted. Is anyone else getting this too?

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> Not sure what is going on with Tapatalk but none of the pictures are showing recently. It's so annoying as I am not seeing any of the latest NTH watches being posted. Is anyone else getting this too?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Yes. Me too. Weird because I'm attaching in tapa and it seems to work. 


Sometimes whenever I get time I'll head over to the web view 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## fillerbunny (Apr 27, 2018)

Hey guys. I bought a watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fillerbunny said:


> Hey guys. I bought a watch.


What, just one?

Just kidding. Thanks for your purchase. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. If not, enjoy it and wear it in good health.

But also...I wouldn't complain if you bought another.


----------



## fillerbunny (Apr 27, 2018)

docvail said:


> What, just one?
> 
> Just kidding. Thanks for your purchase. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. If not, enjoy it and wear it in good health.
> 
> But also...I wouldn't complain if you bought another.


Yeah, just the one, for now. I've never had much interest in Sub homages, but have wanted a white dial and/or a textured dial watch for some time now. The combination of white, blue and nicotine grabbed my attention a while back and now that I gathered these won't be available for much longer I had to get one. 

All the brushed things on the dial capture light so well, I love it. 

Any tips on how to install the Gamecubeish-coloured Viton strap? I gave up after a couple of tries.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

fillerbunny said:


> Yeah, just the one, for now. I've never had much interest in Sub homages, but have wanted a white dial and/or a textured dial watch for some time now. The combination of white, blue and nicotine grabbed my attention a while back and now that I gathered these won't be available for much longer I had to get one.
> 
> All the brushed things on the dial capture light so well, I love it.
> 
> Any tips on how to install the Gamecubeish-coloured Viton strap? I gave up after a couple of tries.


Patience and caution. I used a small screwdriver as a sort of pry bar to get the spring bars to sit one I had the strap seated properly in the lugs. Try and get one end of the spring bar in first, the get the rest in place. I've heard others say curved bars work, never tried em myself.

It is definitely a PITA, but it's worth it in the end. Most comfortable rubber strap _I've _worn.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fillerbunny said:


> Yeah, just the one, for now. I've never had much interest in Sub homages, but have wanted a white dial and/or a textured dial watch for some time now. The combination of white, blue and nicotine grabbed my attention a while back and now that I gathered these won't be available for much longer I had to get one.
> 
> All the brushed things on the dial capture light so well, I love it.
> 
> Any tips on how to install the Gamecubeish-coloured Viton strap? I gave up after a couple of tries.


Get one side of the spring bar in, lever the other end into place using the spring bar tool like a crow bar. 

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Oh wow, they are way out there. I get a bit of a Vostok vibe from the Torado, with paddle hands and the numerals
> 
> View attachment 16221829
> 
> ...


Get outta my head, man. These were my exact two immediate thoughts.

Also, I dig the double-aught at 12.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)




----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ultra early #NTHursday !!

So late the only light outside is the street light


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> Not sure what is going on with Tapatalk but none of the pictures are showing recently. It's so annoying as I am not seeing any of the latest NTH watches being posted. Is anyone else getting this too?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk





kpjimmy said:


> Yes. Me too. Weird because I'm attaching in tapa and it seems to work.
> 
> 
> Sometimes whenever I get time I'll head over to the web view
> ...


Same thing is happening to me. 

Only some pictures are loading. Others show up as"attachments" that you can't open. 

If I view the thread in a browser, I'm able to see the pictures so I know it's a tapalk loading thing.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

#NTHursday


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

ryan850 said:


> Same thing is happening to me.
> 
> Only some pictures are loading. Others show up as"attachments" that you can't open.
> 
> If I view the thread in a browser, I'm able to see the pictures so I know it's a tapalk loading thing.


Same here, only happening in crapatalk

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

The Amphicuda is back on my wrist again 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

ryan850 said:


> Same thing is happening to me.
> 
> Only some pictures are loading. Others show up as"attachments" that you can't open.
> 
> If I view the thread in a browser, I'm able to see the pictures so I know it's a tapalk loading thing.


I can see pics posted via Tapakack, everything else is appearing as an attachment. I’m glad it’s not just me, first world health scare!


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

This was for sale. Now it's not. Good thing, because I know it's one I would have regretted letting go...

#NTHursday


----------



## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16232018
> 
> 
> View attachment 16232019
> ...


Haha... I was surprised to see it on the sale forum. Glad you came to your senses.


----------



## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16232018
> 
> 
> View attachment 16232019
> ...


Thanks for saving me from myself, and the import tax 😉


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHresher #NTHursday

Jersey Thursday, Donovan, 1965, Album Fairy Tale

In a tiny piece of colored glass
My love was born
And reds and golds and yellows
Were the colors in the dawn
Night brought on its purple cloak
Of velvet to the sky
And the gulls were wheeling, spinning
On jersey Thursday


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

C300 on NTH strap.


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Crapatalk living up to its fame. Only seeing about half the images in the last few pages.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Crapatalk living up to its fame. Only seeing about half the images in the last few pages.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Missing some good pics Brother! and yeah Crapatalk can be a real pain in the ass.


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

It’s “kind of” an NTHursday…











Sent from a van down by the river…


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

#NTHursday


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random thinks...

Just got off the phone with one of my retailers, talking about what is selling, what isn't, and why that might be. Why does one brand sell well at $1500 but another comparable product from a comparable brand doesn't sell at all, at $900? Neither of us could explain it. As screenwriter William Goldman once quipped, "nobody knows nothing." The longer I do this, the more true that seems.

Some days I really hate the randomness of it all.

Jonathan Bordell, late of Page & Cooper (and the realty business before that), used to enjoy saying, "When two people do a deal in the real estate business, one guy makes a lot of money, and the other guy gets screwed. In the watch business, no one makes any money, and everyone gets screwed."

I thought that was pretty amusing, if only because, at that time, I didn't feel like it particularly applied to me or my business (it's less amusing now that he's out of business, still owing me a fair few quid).

But then again...

I recently started serious (okay, it's me, so, semi-serious) exploration into a new avenue of production. I spent a few hours searching for potential manufacturing partners, in a specific part of the world. I narrowed the list down to five possibilities which seemed to "fit the bill" for my needs.

I contacted all five earlier this week (Monday), but only got one response so far, who essentially admitted that they were sourcing everything from the same places I am now, just adding "____ made" to the product, thanks to local assembly in their country, where the "made in" labeling laws are lax enough that simply doing final assembly there is enough to qualify for the "made in" label.

Looking back, I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised. When I was scouring through various databases and search results, it seemed like more than half the companies listed were out of business, or in some entirely different business, which is why it's probably more accurate to say I gave up searching after finding five possibilities which seemed viable enough, rather than saying I "narrowed the list to five".

People can say what they want about Chinese manufacturing. I get at least six emails a week from factories just looking for a shot at my business. Yeah, once or twice, I've found a Chinese vendor wasn't Johnny-on-the-spot when it came to their responsiveness to my inquiries, but that's the exception, not the rule. Most of them seem like they wish they could camp out on my doorstep, not just in my inbox.

Anyway...

Did I mention the Todaro is going to have "thick print" lume, which should give the printed dial a bit of 3D effect?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just sent messages to two more potential partners. We'll see if either of them responds.

One of the factors in my decision to not use ETA or Sellita movements in the past has been the "secret handshake" aspect of sourcing them. I don't want to spin my wheels, screwing around with "I know a guy who knows a guy who knows how to get them," which seems to be how a lot of European component suppliers do business.

At least with Miyota and Seiko, they will straight up tell you they won't sell their movements directly to brands, only to distributors and OEMs. I think that's stupid, personally, but at least they're up front about it. I suppose you could say they know who their "real" customer is, and it isn't me, the brand owner, but rather my suppliers. 

I liked that I dealt directly with STP. I wasn't thrilled with how they operated beyond that, but at least I got to speak to them directly. Any company that actually responds when you contact them is steps ahead of the competition, in this industry.

Back when I was absolutely killing it as an insurance wholesaler, my boss once called to congratulate me on another great month. I was actually kind of embarrassed. We had such a fantastic product to sell, I wasn't working that hard. I literally told him I was just doing "the stupid stuff", i.e., returning people's phone calls and emails. It was truly that easy to "make it rain".

"Well, I gotta wonder what your peers are doing, then..."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of forum software glitches, this has been going on a while...









I've tried to fix it, but this is what it looks like in the settings editor:


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Speaking of forum software glitches, this has been going on a while...
> View attachment 16232779
> 
> 
> ...


The forum glitch ive been seeing the past week or so is the images not loading all the way. im on my laptop most of the time.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> The forum glitch ive been seeing the past week or so is the images not loading all the way. im on my laptop most of the time.


I haven't been keeping records, but my seat-of-the-pants-recollection is that if I add a pic using tapatalk, it doesn't show up on the browser, and vice-versa. If I click on the "attachment" link in a browser, it'll open up a new tab, which shows the image 50% of the time, and a blank page the other 50% of the time. 

On tapatalk, clicking "attachment" does nothing but open up a browser page, which takes forever to load, and then shows - wait for it - NOTHING!!! HAHAHAHAHAH!

Lately I've been noticing that it'll take images longer to load if I'm scrolling down the page on my laptop (either my work machine or the craptastic Chromebook I keep in the den).

The signature thing is a minor nuisance I first noticed maybe a month ago. I tried fixing it then, even though I figured it was just a glitch and might fix itself. I couldn't fix it then, and it hasn't fixed itself since. Trying to fix it again today accomplished nothing.

We live in wonderful times. Somewhere Bill Gates and Sergey Brin are probably laughing their balls off.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Getting back to this...



SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Oh wow, they are way out there. I get a bit of a Vostok vibe from the Torado, with paddle hands and the numerals
> 
> View attachment 16221829
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> I have a "Skunk Works" folder on my laptop, where I keep images of anything I like, for future reference. The way we've been doing design work the last few years, going in starts and stops, by the time we're done, it's been so long since we started, I don't always remember what we were looking at when we got this or that idea. I'll have to go back and look at what's in that folder.
> 
> I don't specifically remember looking at any Vostoks, but it's certainly possible. I did always like that '67 Amphibia re-issue they made, and the hands are similar to those on the Upholder. I'd been wanting to use that specific handset on something for a while.
> 
> ...


I tried to re-trace my steps on both the Todaro and the Upholder, by looking at my "Skunk Works" folder, which is where most of the images below came from.

I remember saying I wanted to do something that would be sort of an update to the Scorpène, with a big-number dial, but not exactly like it. I showed Aaron the ZRC Grands Fonds, and also the Seiko SARZ033, as examples of two different approaches on the same theme. I liked the combination of big numbers and big baton markers with a fat handset, which is where we started. 

Somehow we ended up going 4-8-12 instead of 3-6-9-12 with the dial pattern (I think because of Anonimo, but maybe also looking at U-Boat), and incorporating a bit of vintage Eterna-matic Super Kontiki for the minute track.

I vaguely recall at one point, I was thinking about military time, and how 12am is 00:00, not 12:00. I can't remember if that was before or after we were geeking out over the double-barrel spear gun, which I still want, if anyone is thinking of getting me something for Christmas. I think it really is the perfect weapon for home defense.









































For the Upholder, I knew I wanted to use that basket-weave dial texture seen on the Glashutte Spezimatic, but wasn't sure what else I wanted to do. 

We were admiring some designs with trapezoid-shaped markers, and dial patterns which I see as "in-board", meaning the hour markers are pushed inwards from the perimeter of the dial, and also some designs with block-color minute tracks. So we played with those ideas until we had something we liked.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Random thinks...
> 
> Just got off the phone with one of my retailers, talking about what is selling, what isn't, and why that might be. Why does one brand sell well at $1500 but another comparable product from a comparable brand doesn't sell at all, at $900? Neither of us could explain it. As screenwriter William Goldman once quipped, "nobody knows nothing." The longer I do this, the more true that seems.
> 
> ...



Why do 2 very similar watches sell differently at different prices? In the past it was all marketing.....then with the internet, influences, etc it became marketing+sentiment.....now with forums and social media it is marketing +sentiment +FOMO

I'm digging the new design! Thick lume gives a look somewhere between printed & applied indices. Nice!


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Here we go again


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Did I mention the Todaro is going to have "thick print" lume, which should give the printed dial a bit of 3D effect?
> 
> View attachment 16232653


Oh wow, somehow I missed this earlier ... this one will be very tempting ... the 0-4-8 emphasis is vastly underused in watch design, IMO.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

And a watch for Friday.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

A long time ago @hwa posted a mod here which did everything right in my world, and years later, here it is. Damn. Also, thanks to @3WR for holding onto this for me in the meantime.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Original lyrics, KISS, 1974, Cold Gin

Ooh, it's ABSINTHE time again
You know it'll always win
ABSINTHE time again
You know it's the only thing
That keeps us together, ow


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> A long time ago @hwa posted a mod here which did everything right in my world, and years later, here it is. Damn. Also, thanks to @3WR for holding onto this for me in the meantime.
> 
> View attachment 16233817
> 
> ...


Great looking watch. Very sinn esque.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FS Alert - somewhat rare Kiger Red Ronin (#2 of 47) on f29.









SOLD: KIGER Red Ronin Milsub 2/47


Selling my KIGER Red Ronin Milsub made in collaboration with NTH. It is limited to 47 pieces only and this is #2. I purchased is directly from Mark Kiger and am the original owner. However I have not worn it much and its time to let someone else enjoy it. It comes complete with inner box and...




www.watchuseek.com


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

docvail said:


> FS Alert - somewhat rare Kiger Red Ronin (#2 of 47) on f29.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sold already 😱


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

There was some funky stuff in the specs list for that Kiger Milsub...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> There was some funky stuff in the specs list for that Kiger Milsub...


Yeah that is all sorts of wrong.....


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> Yeah that is all sorts of wrong.....


For real. Copy/paste gone terribly wrong, maybe...? Apparently someone bought it regardless.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Bay City Rollers, 1974, Album Rollin’

S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y night!
S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y night!
S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y night!
S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y night!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

If I couldn't get a vouch, I would have walked away. Being a #2 he shoud be some sort of WIS and I would have proof-read it to make sure the listing is correct. I re-read my listings like 10 times lol. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> There was some funky stuff in the specs list for that Kiger Milsub...


Wow. I didn't even see that. I stopped reading after the first few lines of text.


----------



## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

Nearly new BVB…. Gorgeous….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Another Pleasant Valley Sunday, The Monkees, 1967
A number three hit for the Monkees, dealing with the rising popularity of suburban life.

Another Pleasant Valley Sunday
Charcoal burnin' everywhere
Rows of houses that are all the same
And no one seems to care


----------



## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Had my white Devilray for a few days, to be honest I found the bracelet to be a bit sharp in places especially parts of the clasp, but I love it on this grey tropic. Wish it had drilled lugs though


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Had my white Devilray for a few days, to be honest I found the bracelet to be a bit sharp in places especially parts of the clasp, but I love it on this grey tropic. Wish it had drilled lugs though
> 
> View attachment 16238339


Sorry you didn't like the bracelet.

The lugs of the DevilRays case can't be drilled through, due to the case design and lug length.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

Sorry it’s not wearing your dial anymore Doc, but that’s how (& why) I purchased it 🤗

Nothing I don’t like about the case, bracelet & bezel however, a great package (TWSS) & I _love_ it. It wears so comfortably & is so slim on the wrist. Well done Sir, good work Fella! 👍🏻


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Snaggletooth said:


> Sorry it’s not wearing your dial anymore Doc, but that’s how (& why) I purchased it 🤗
> 
> Nothing I don’t like about the case, bracelet & bezel however, a great package (TWSS) & I _love_ it. It wears so comfortably & is so slim on the wrist. Well done Sir, good work Fella! 👍🏻
> View attachment 16240020


No worries on the dial. Glad you still like it otherwise, all things considered.


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

This is one of those watches that doesn't look even half as good on screen than it does in real life. The dial is fantastic and I see far more burgundy than brown in most light.

I sat on this one for a while but @Mediocre pushed me over the edge with his pictures.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

CuriousBob said:


> This is one of those watches that doesn't look even half as good on screen than it does in real life. The dial is fantastic and I see far more burgundy than brown in most light.
> 
> I sat on this one for a while but @Mediocre pushed me over the edge with his pictures.
> View attachment 16240130


Glad to see another on here, and glad you like it! I am also glad someone else feels my pain LOL! It is so hard to portray how awesome it is in pics! I just thought I was terrible with a camera (which is still possible.....even likely), but it looks outstanding on the wrist 👌 

Fits you well, enjoy!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The brown is very underrated, IMO.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> Glad to see another on here, and glad you like it! I am also glad someone else feels my pain LOL! It is so hard to portray how awesome it is in pics! I just thought I was terrible with a camera (which is still possible.....even likely), but it looks outstanding on the wrist 👌
> 
> Fits you well, enjoy!


Yes! it's very hard to photograph but it looks amazing in low light and almost has a copper look to it at times.



docvail said:


> The brown is very underrated, IMO.


Severely underrated. It looks fantastic. I'm very pleased with it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

@CuriousBob made my decision today!


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

L&H joined me for smores last evening


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Happen to be wearing my brownie today


----------



## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> Sorry you didn't like the bracelet.
> 
> The lugs of the DevilRays case can't be drilled through, due to the case design and lug length.


I'll try it again, I'm sure it's just me being picky.

I must say that the Devilray has spoiled my other cushion case watches a bit. Looked at my Seiko Turtles after having the Devilray on for a few days and they don't look nearly as interesting. I'm sure it'll pass ,i was a huge turtle fan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> I'll try it again, I'm sure it's just me being picky.
> 
> I must say that the Devilray has spoiled my other cushion case watches a bit. Looked at my Seiko Turtles after having the Devilray on for a few days and they don't look nearly as interesting. I'm sure it'll pass ,i was a huge turtle fan


We have occasionally heard complaints about sharp edges on bracelets or the corners on clasps. It hasn't been as common more recently, and I can't think of any such comments regarding the current-gen DevilRay. Most of the complaints regarding the v.2 (current gen) bracelet were just lamenting that we didn't continue with the v.1 bracelet (which happened to draw many complaints about the expansion clasp having sharp corners).

That's not to suggest you're being too picky. That's not for me to judge. It's always possible you got one with finishing not quite as good. I try to avoid suggesting anyone do anything to "improve" on the product, but on occasion I've suggested a _little_ sanding on an edge might improve things, if someone has sensitive skin.

I have 2 DevilRays. I've been wearing my v.1 on a rubber strap, and liking it that way. I have the v.2 on the same bracelet you have. The only thing I've noticed about it is how noticeably thicker the links are, compared to an NTH Sub or Tropics (where the more common complaint is that the links are too thin).

We usually try to make the link thickness proportional to case thickness, using the same ratio on all models, such that thinner cases will generally have thinner links in the bracelet, and vice-versa.

I prefer drilled lugs, too, and generally ask my factory if it can be done when submitting a design. It's not always possible to do, if the lugs are too short, and/or if the necessary placement of the lug-hole would intersect with a surface transition on the outer surface of the case/lugs. In the case of the DevilRay, I think both were true. 

We can't control exactly where the lug holes are placed. It's dictated by manufacturing needs (clearances).

If the lugs are too short, the drill could gouge the case surface between the lugs as it passes through from one lug to the other. 

If the hole intersects with a surface transition, the drill might slip and damage the case, as the point of contact (where the drill starts) isn't flat (flush with the drill tip). Even if not, the result wouldn't be a round lug hole, but rather a tear-drop shaped hole, somewhat like what you'd have if you were to cut part of the end of a pipe at an oblique angle.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I've never been too big on nylon but I had to give this one a go.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

CuriousBob said:


> I've never been too big on nylon but I had to give this one a go.
> View attachment 16241322


It looks great! 👍


----------



## fillerbunny (Apr 27, 2018)

docvail said:


> If the lugs are too short, the drill could gouge the case surface between the lugs as it passes through from one lug to the other.


If you cannot get a drill bit from one lug hole to the other without hitting the case, how do you fit a spring bar there?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fillerbunny said:


> If you cannot get a drill bit from one lug hole to the other without hitting the case, how do you fit a spring bar there?


There's room for a spring bar, with where the lug holes are placed. Drilling the holes from inside the lugs allows them to be drilled further from the case than they'd be if they were drilled from outside the lugs.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Though technically it’s #2KrownTu3sday, decided to go with a collectible today. Sometimes one just needs to wear a watch you can’t even tell you’re wearing…

G-Shock ICERC All as One Orca…for those that don’t frequent the G-Shock forum.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Kid’s getting teeth pulled.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

RotorRonin said:


> Kid’s getting teeth pulled.


Oof. Been there when my kiddo was like 8 or 9. We tried to get to a restaurant and get mashed potatoes before the meds ran out. We were too late and started crying right when we pulled into parking lot. Took a good 10 minutes before we went inside. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Oof. Been there when my kiddo was like 8 or 9. We tried to get to a restaurant and get mashed potatoes before the meds ran out. We were too late and started crying right when we pulled into parking lot. Took a good 10 minutes before we went inside.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Mine is 9! Preemptive Tylenol and Starbucks after seems to have done the trick this time around.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Got 2 wisdom teeth pulled when I was in my 20's. 

Not fun.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Story of my life is now crowns. I'm going with gold. Eventually, I'll have a full grill, yo.

In the meantime, this is what I'm wearing.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Got 2 wisdom teeth pulled when I was in my 20's.
> 
> Not fun.


That was back in the day.

Nowadays they push wisdom teeth. More comfortable. Surprisingly few takers, though.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seven different case factories contacted.

SEVEN!!!

Five of those were last Monday. The last two were this past Thursday.

Only one response so far, from the one vendor who is definitely NOT from a case factory.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

This crapatalk photo load fail thing is really starting to wee me off....I use the phone app for the convenience. 

Now having to use a phone browser instead. Not as user friendly. 

Hope they sort it out soon... 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Got 2 wisdom teeth pulled when I was in my 20's.
> 
> Not fun.


Two? Pfff. I had five. Yes, five.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Two? Pfff. I had five. Yes, five.


You weren't born near a nuclear power plant, were you?


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

TheBearded said:


> Two? Pfff. I had five. Yes, five.


I only had to have one removed, however I had to go under the knife, as it was growing horizontally, and they had to cut open my jaw and break the tooth into smaller pieces to get it out.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> I only had to have one removed, however I had to go under the knife, as it was growing horizontally, and they had to cut open my jaw and break the tooth into smaller pieces to get it out.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Same. All four of mine were growing in facing forward. I was told I'd have to have them all out, but it was recommended I only do two at a time. 

I foolishly opted to have the two bottom ones out first, rather than two on either the right or left, which would have still left me able to chew food on one or the other side of my mouth. Having the two bottom teeth pulled didn't.

Plus, they left bone fragments under the gum line, causing infection, and forcing me to go back under the knife.

After that, I opted not to have the top two pulled.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> You weren't born near a nuclear power plant, were you?


Not as far as I know.
The doc told me it was a one in some high(10s, 100s?) thousand occurence. Top right, above another wisdom tooth. They had to cut and chop their way in.

My tonsils were screwed up as a kid. They had apparently overgrown the adenoids(no idea what those are). Doc told me they were the largest he'd ever removed.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Still got all 4 of my wisdom teeth. It occasionally surprises a new hygenist, but dentist always says, "If they're not bothering him, leave 'em be." So far, so good. At statistically more than halfway through life, unless I get a real hankering for good drugs, we'll just leave those suckers alone.

I am however, a champion producer of saliva. At one point during a filling or summat, was told that "If saliva production was an Olympic event, you'd gold medal, for sure."


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Possible names for new Tropics: 

Wisdom 
Impacted 
Adenoids 
Saliva


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Possible names for new Tropics:
> 
> Wisdom
> Impacted
> ...


Some of those are hard to swallow.

But I like Tonsils!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Not as far as I know.
> The doc told me it was a one in some high(10s, 100s?) thousand occurence. Top right, above another wisdom tooth. They had to cut and chop their way in.
> 
> My tonsils were screwed up as a kid. They had apparently overgrown the adenoids(no idea what those are). Doc told me they were the largest he'd ever removed.
> View attachment 16244120


Weird, I also had over-grown tonsils / adenoids, monstrously overgrown, and needed them taken out in my mid-20's.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Still got all 4 of my wisdom teeth. It occasionally surprises a new hygenist, but dentist always says, "If they're not bothering him, leave 'em be." So far, so good. At statistically more than halfway through life, unless I get a real hankering for good drugs, we'll just leave those suckers alone.
> 
> I am however, a champion producer of saliva. At one point during a filling or summat, was told that "If saliva production was an Olympic event, you'd gold medal, for sure."


I can gleek. I do it all the time, whenever I yawn.

@GlenRoiland told me it was his favorite super-power, something he'd been trying to learn how to do. Here I've been doing it effortlessly, not at all deliberately, for years.

True story.


----------



## thekas (Mar 6, 2020)

JLS36 said:


> First photo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice symmetrical dial & hands that match perfectly, Luv it


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Seven different case factories contacted.
> 
> SEVEN!!!
> 
> ...


So...

One of the six factories I've been waiting to hear from got back to me today, just to say they can't help me (no explanation why), but that they have a second factory, under a different business name, that can.

Of course, that other factory is also one of the six, in fact one of the last two I contacted on Thursday.

And from which I'm still awaiting a response.

Meanwhile, Swiss movement supplier isn't breaking any land-speed records to get back to me, after I provided them with all my business info, for the purposes of invoicing me for the sample movements I want.

Gotta love the European way of doing business. Maybe Bordell was onto something ("everyone gets screwed, and no one makes any money").


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

thekas said:


> Very nice symmetrical dial & hands that match perfectly, Luv it


Thank you for the kind words.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Getting back to my Facebook ban...

It seems it was me, something I posted to my personal page in June of last year, and nothing to do with the booze-names on the Tropics. Still no idea what I posted, nor do I have any idea when I'll be out of FB jail. It seems like they really want me to understand what an awful person I am with this latest infraction.

Recieved a half dozen messages from people who noticed my absence, all basically asking, "what did you do this time?"

Nice to know I'm missed.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Getting back to my Facebook ban...
> 
> Recieved a half dozen messages from people who noticed my absence, all basically asking, "what did you do this time?"
> 
> Nice to know I'm missed.


Damn recidivist...


Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

thekas said:


> Very nice symmetrical dial & hands that match perfectly, Luv it


It's commonly referred to as "Vail's finest work" 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

Urgh I just came across this white dial antilles from a few years ago. Where's my time machine 😭


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Getting back to my Facebook ban...
> 
> It seems it was me, something I posted to my personal page in June of last year, and nothing to do with the booze-names on the Tropics. Still no idea what I posted, nor do I have any idea when I'll be out of FB jail. It seems like they really want me to understand what an awful person I am with this latest infraction.
> 
> ...


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

A kind forum member facilitated a bracelet exchange that has given me my first exposure to BOR. 

Dig the feel in hand and wearing. 
Dig the sunken end links. 
Warming up to the look.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> A kind forum member facilitated a bracelet exchange that has given me my first exposure to BOR.
> 
> Dig the feel in hand and wearing.
> Dig the sunken end links.
> Warming up to the look.


Is that the NTH BOR? I don't recall the end-links sitting that much below the lugs' surface, or ending so far in-board of the lugs' tips.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

3WR said:


> A kind forum member facilitated a bracelet exchange that has given me my first exposure to BOR.
> 
> Dig the feel in hand and wearing.
> Dig the sunken end links.
> Warming up to the look.


My first go at BOR was with NTH. I was worried that the polished bits might be too flashy for me but it quickly became my favorite and most comfortable bracelet.



docvail said:


> Is that the NTH BOR? I don't recall the end-links sitting that much below the lugs' surface, or ending so far in-board of the lugs' tips


Bent spring bar maybe? There's definitely a gap between the bezel and the link. The space between the end link and lug tips looks normal though.


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Is that the NTH BOR? I don't recall the end-links sitting that much below the lugs' surface, or ending so far in-board of the lugs' tips.


Yes. Came from a new (or like new) Scorpene. Has the normal NTH signed clasp.

Bob, that's encouraging. The flash is what I need to get used to. I could have used an all brushed version as a gateway bracelet. That gap is mostly a camera trick. End link fits pretty snuggly.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

CuriousBob said:


> My first go at BOR was with NTH. I was worried that the polished bits might be too flashy for me but it quickly became my favorite and most comfortable bracelet.
> View attachment 16245282


Interestingly, I have a Nth BoR on my Santa Cruz... absolute winner. 

Out of interest, I swapped out the OEM bracelet that came with the Tikuna for the BoR... and meh!

Didn't like it. Same case but the BoR just looks better on the white dialed Cruz. I didn't like the look on the black dial. Funny that. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Red PeeKay said:


> Interestingly, I have a Nth BoR on my Santa Cruz... absolute winner.
> 
> Out of interest, I swapped out the OEM bracelet that came with the Tikuna for the BoR... and meh!
> 
> ...


I agree that the BoR works best with the lighter dials. I also have a Santa Cruz on BoR and I love it. I recall that this was discussed earlier in this thread and there were lots of NTHs posted on BoR, and to my eye the light dials won out.









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Tried a BOP on this one... loved the bracelet, but visually, just didn't work for me.


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## dustybutdigital (Jul 17, 2019)

Just a tip if anyone is looking at a reasonable quality 16mm tapering bracelet for the 40 mm subs: 
the Long Island Watch _Islander 20mm Brushed Solid-Link Watch Bracelet for SRPE Seiko 5 Watches Curved End_ fits pretty well. 
The endlinks move a little bit, but there is no pain with getting the springbars fitted.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dustybutdigital said:


> Just a tip if anyone is looking at a reasonable quality 16mm tapering bracelet for the 40 mm subs:
> the Long Island Watch _Islander 20mm Brushed Solid-Link Watch Bracelet for SRPE Seiko 5 Watches Curved End_ fits pretty well.
> The endlinks move a little bit, but there is no pain with getting the springbars fitted.


SRPE, you say? Hmm...




























Ref. Uncle Seiko SRPE "DressKX" Jubilee style bracelet. There's also a President style available.

Not a terrible fit, at all. Actually pretty darn close. A tad short, and at some wrist flex positions, the top of the (hollow) endlink moves just a bit proud of the lugs, but for all intents and purposes, I'd call it compatible.










Still, wrong style for a Scorpene Black. Back to stock...


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

It’s #NTHursday, innit?










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

What day is it?
.
.
.
What day is it?
.
.
.
What day is it?
.
.
.
It‘s hump…er #NTHresher #NTHursday of course!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Just got an email blast from Island Watch - Looks like Marc is running a sale on a couple NTH models: v1 Sub Santa Cruz, and 2K1 Swiftsure.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Feels like it's been a while since I did this...

Last Nazario Azzurro - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nazario-azzurro-pre-order 

Last 1 or 2 of the Bahia - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=138&cate_no=60&display_group=1 

Last DevilRay, Black - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=154&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Last 1-3 of the DevilRay, White - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=159&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Last Swifture, Black, No-Date, DLC - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/2k1subs-swiftsure-blackdlc

Last Swiftsure, White - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/2k1subs-swiftsure-white

Last v.1 Barracuda Vintage Black, DLC, With Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-vintage-black-dlc-date

Last 2 or 3 of the v.1 Näcken Modern Black - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=99&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Last Nazario Vino Rosso, DLC - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nazario-vino-rosso-dlc-no-date

Last Nazario Vino Rosso, stainless - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=206&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Last 1 or 2 of the v.1 Näcken Modern Blue - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=170&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Last 2 or 3 of the v.2 Barracuda Vintage Black No Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth?page=1

Last 2-4 of the v.2 Näcken Modern Blue - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth?page=1

Last week, literally (not figuratively) within a day or two of the Scorpène White selling out, someone emailed to ask when we plan to make another full-lume dial Sub. 

Honestly, no idea. After that's happened so many times, it starts to feel like peeps are just screwing with me.

Maybe we'll make more, some day. Maybe not. I don't know. But with most designs, I'd bet on "not".


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Last week, literally (not figuratively) within a day or two of the Scorpène White selling out, someone emailed to ask when we plan to make another full-lume dial Sub.


Funny: 

Last week, I decided to see what was out there for Scorpene White. Nothing came up. Well, dang, looks like I missed out on picking one up new. Probably just as well. 

But one thing I knew better than to do: inquire of NTH via website, or here, if there was going to be another run, any time soon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Funny:
> 
> Last week, I decided to see what was out there for Scorpene White. Nothing came up. Well, dang, looks like I missed out on picking one up new. Probably just as well.
> 
> But one thing I knew better than to do: inquire of NTH via website, or here, if there was going to be another run, any time soon.


I don't want to sound like I'm "angry" about it, because I'm honestly not. It's just one of those recurring little frustrations in the life of the brand owner and store owners.

It's weird, to see it happen over and over - the last piece or two of a design will sit, "unloved" for months, or even a year, sometimes more, as if no one in the world wants it, then within days of the last piece selling, someone asks when we'll make more. A few times, it'll be more than one person asking. My retailers and I will chuckle when it happens, because what else can we do?

FWIW, the Scorpène White was part of the October 2020 release. It was available for a year. It's hard for us to not think, "where have you been" when we get people asking when we'll make more.

I suppose part of the frustration comes from the memory of when people were literally (not figuratively) saying I didn't know how to run the business because we were always sold out of whatever model someone wanted. You can't throw a rock in this forum and not hit a thread with someone complaining about "artificial scarcity", waiting lists, mad-scramble pre-orders, etc. If we have something available for anything longer than three months, I feel like that's more than enough opportunity for everyone.

And I admit, it does make it hard to know what to produce, and when. We're planning production 4-6 months in advance. There have been times when we've suddenly wanted more of something that didn't seem to be selling that well, after it was too late to put it into production again, or vice-versa, we think there's enough demand to make more of something, then suddenly, for no apparent reason, the sales pace will come to a grinding halt, after we committed to producing more.

The last 2 years, to avoid "over-production", I've been trying to keep the production pace at a level that's just barely enough to keep up with demand ("just in time" manufacturing), which isn't easy to do when we have a 4-5 month production time, and we're dealing with our vendors' MOQ's on parts production and assembly.

Things are more complicated now that we've got 8-10 retailers around the world. Some are more willing to hold onto inventory longer than others. When they have inventory, most want to be sold out. They'll complain if a model doesn't sell quickly. But as soon as they're sold out, they want to have more inventory available, like, right now. They think they're "losing money" if someone says they want a watch they don't have.

But production doesn't work that way. We don't have the ability to just whip up 5-10 more pieces of something and have it shipped within a week.

I ordered 600 of the v.2 Subs cases to be produced. As of this moment, I know what all but the last 100 are going to be. I'm looking at a list of 45 different Subs designs, of which, we've assembled 100 each, on average, and trying to figure out which ones make sense to produce again, or if we should try to come up with more new designs. We've only taken delivery of the first 150 of that 600, so we're still looking for good data on which to base our decisions, and we don't have a crystal ball.

I'm not going to order another 25-50 pieces of something that took a year to sell out, just because one or two guys asked about it.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm not going to order another 25-50 pieces of something that took a year to sell out, just because one or two guys asked about it.


Well. I work manufacturing, and we source some out of China. I get all this. 

Also, I recognized that the Scorpene White had been available for a while. Not like it was a hot seller you'll be quick to do again.

There was one that just sold here on WUS, cheap. 

And if I really, really wanted one, I'd have jumped on it, closer to release, not when stock was down to single digits. 

It's not like you don't warn us...

But still... I know better to ask, at this point. 🤣


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## dustybutdigital (Jul 17, 2019)

Two blue watch rotation. The daily and the "beater". 
The NTH could be threatened if Tudor ever managed to make something better, which they so far have consistently failed to do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dustybutdigital said:


> The NTH could be threatened if Tudor ever managed to make something better, which they so far have consistently failed to do.


Bro, you trying to get me whacked???


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif ppl!
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

TGIF it is!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh yeah...










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

dustybutdigital said:


> Two blue watch rotation. The daily and the "beater".
> The NTH could be threatened if Tudor ever managed to make something better, which they so far have consistently failed to do.
> View attachment 16247550


Is that the stock NTH bracelet? yours looks to have a much more dramatic taper than mine.


----------



## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Devilray sporting some new rubber, this is a deployant strap so used the clasp from my NTH bracelet.

This is from watchgecko, and my top tip if you already have a suitable clasp, just buy the rubber strap 'spares' instead of buying the complete strap.


----------



## dustybutdigital (Jul 17, 2019)

PowerChucker said:


> Is that the stock NTH bracelet? yours looks to have a much more dramatic taper than mine.


No, its the Long Island Watch _Islander 20mm Brushed Solid-Link Watch Bracelet for SRPE Seiko 5 Watches Curved End links. _Fits the nth well and tapers to 16mm


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

dustybutdigital said:


> No, its the Long Island Watch _Islander 20mm Brushed Solid-Link Watch Bracelet for SRPE Seiko 5 Watches Curved End links. _Fits the nth well and tapers to 16mm


That’s a super comfy bracelet.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, I saw the "Endlinks fit NTH Subs" oyster bracelet with glidelock clasp on the 'Bay, recently. Again, I tried one, fit was good, quality was present, but I have a hard time with the sheer length of the glidelock clasp, and, at least the model I picked up, lack of removeable links to put the clasp where it would have better fit on my wrist.


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Bowling for Soup (most excellent name for a band), 2011, Album Fishin’ for Woos

S-S-S-Saturday

partial lyrics

I wish every night was Saturday night
I wish every night was Saturday night
I wish every night was Saturday night
I wish every night was Saturday night
I wish every night was Saturday night
I wish every night was Saturday night
Here's to hoping Monday never comes
S-S-S-Saturday Night


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Not to be a rube, are there any other photos of the Todaro or Upholder?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Not to be a rube, are there any other photos of the Todaro or Upholder?


No, because they don't exist yet. They're in production now. We should have some by early next month.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not my listing, but this seems like a very fair deal on a rarely worn, 1 of 35 Barracuda Polar White no-date running at 0 secs/day...









SOLD: NTH Polar White Barracuda No Date


SOLD Rarely worn with no obvious wear. NTH Polar White No Date Barracuda. I am not the original owner. As shown keeps excellent time. Will read a few s/d plus or minus in other positions but was dead on the few times I had it on the wrist. Price Pre-Negociated for your convenience. $445 PayPal...




www.watchuseek.com


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> No, because they don't exist yet. They're in production now. We should have some by early next month.


Very cool.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Another Devil Ray Sunday Funday…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom.










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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Vintage Blue Nacken
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Devilray strap combos, must admit I like the grey tropic


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

This old favorite again today:


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> Not my listing, but this seems like a very fair deal on a rarely worn, 1 of 35 Barracuda Polar White no-date running at 0 secs/day...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up, I jumped on it. Should be a nice upgrade from my Borealis Portus Cale.

Funny enough, I still follow this thread even though I haven't owned an NTH in a couple years. I have owned a Phantom and a DevilRay in the past, though.


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## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

Those silver Devilrays are cracking watches! Especially on the rubber.

Bit too rotund for my baby wrist sadly.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

jjmc87 said:


> Those silver Devilrays are cracking watches! Especially on the rubber.
> 
> Bit too rotund for my baby wrist sadly.


I have 6.25 inch wrists and I have 2 Devil Ray's lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## jjmc87 (Apr 12, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> I have 6.25 inch wrists and I have 2 Devil Ray's lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yeah I can for sure pull it off especially in this style, just a comfort thing really. Just graduated to more svelte watches over time is all.


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

I was thinking about that Polar Barracuda. I've got a large 8.25" wrist size so I'm hesitant to pull the trigger on one. I really like look of the Brown Barracuda. The Swiftsure is the other option I like which is more my size (42 to 44), but I like the Barracuda dial more. Any 8+" wrist shots with a NTH Sub?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

jjmc87 said:


> Yeah I can for sure pull it off especially in this style, just a comfort thing really. Just graduated to more svelte watches over time is all.


Svelte is overrated.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> Funny enough, I still follow this thread even though I haven't owned an NTH in a couple years.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Big_wrist said:


> I was thinking about that Polar Barracuda. I've got a large 8.25" wrist size so I'm hesitant to pull the trigger on one. I really like look of the Brown Barracuda. The Swiftsure is the other option I like which is more my size (42 to 44), but I like the Barracuda dial more. Any 8+" wrist shots with a NTH Sub?


I have 8' wrists and currently own 5 subs. I found that the thinness and comfort on my wrist have drawn me towards smaller watches lately. I tried both the Devilray and the Thresher and found them to sit too large on my wrist even though I regularly wear Seiko Monsters, an L&H Orthos and an Invicta Pro-Diver at 44mm. If you can get over the initial shock of the size difference then you might really grow to love the Subs?









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Big_wrist said:


> I was thinking about that Polar Barracuda. I've got a large 8.25" wrist size so I'm hesitant to pull the trigger on one. I really like look of the Brown Barracuda. The Swiftsure is the other option I like which is more my size (42 to 44), but I like the Barracuda dial more. Any 8+" wrist shots with a NTH Sub?


I voiced the same concerns on here before I bought my first NTH, a Nacken. I have 8" wrists and seriously, Doc's subs couldn't feel any more perfect on me. The thin cases are really where these things shine. I wear my watches low and thicker cases tend to get a bit annoying to me as the day goes on.

My 44 mils feel a bit too big for me now. Luckily they are pilots so I can still get away with it but just a thought. NTH got me hooked bad.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

kak1154 said:


> Should be a nice upgrade from my Borealis Portus Cale.


I know this is the NTH thread, but I just gotta say: there is no such thing as an "upgrade" from the Borealis Portus Cale.


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

Thanks for the big wrist shots of the 40mm subs. They look good. Hopefully I’ll be back with my own.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

As is my want, every now and then I throw the watch into the phone timer.... today the Tikuna read +4 sec dial down on the phone and 0 sec case back down... not bad for a skinny little thing! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Most recent version of the stock bracelet
















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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Nice pix of the dial, but not much detail of the bracelet.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

MikeyT said:


> Nice pix of the dial, but not much detail of the bracelet.


It's the little things









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boo. Yah.










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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#2Kr0wn2u3sday

Best I can do. Had to get between my Boxer and one my Staffies Saturday. Still trying to bring swelling down in my left hand. Everybody’s okay though and I don’t think the dogs even remember it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I love the optimism...









NTH Azores Mint, Date | eBay


Includes: NTH Tropic and NTH Steel Bracelet. Both unworn. Lug width: 20mm.



www.ebay.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

@mconlonx - Scorpene White, bruh...









NTH SCORPÈNE Dive Watch Full Lume Dial | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH SCORPÈNE Dive Watch Full Lume Dial at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> @mconlonx - Scorpene White, bruh...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shh! Don't tell anyone else!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Shh! Don't tell anyone else!


The bid was around three hundy when I posted it. Stupid cheap. I was tempted to bid on it myself, for the nearly new section, but since we're sold out of that model, there's really no point, and I already have 2 Scorp's in the personal collection, which is enough.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I forgot to update everyone - after 6 months in the shop, we finally got my son's car back on Saturday.

It was running great, until Sunday.

Apparently one of the clamps on a hose connected to the turbo busted loose. They fixed it Monday morning.

Since then, so far, so good.

Also - being banned from Facebook doesn't seem to have helped me be any more efficient with my time, if anyone's been wondering. I still somehow find a way to fall a little bit farther behind each day.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Also - being banned from Facebook doesn't seem to have helped me be any more efficient with my time, if anyone's been wondering. I still somehow find a way to fall a little bit farther behind each day.


Yeah, but you've probably become one of those mad Tik Tokers instead...

You're gunna have to get banned off that as well..



Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Yeah, but you've probably become one of those mad Tik Tokers instead...
> 
> You're gunna have to get banned off that as well..
> 
> ...


Nah. TikTok is owned by the Chinese, who are smart enough to realize you can't spy on anyone you kick off your platform...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Wearing the fantastic Thresher today:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Wearing the fantastic Thresher today:
> 
> View attachment 16257762


What BOR is that?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> What BOR is that?


Geckota Premium BOR with butterfly clasp. I could tweak the end links to make it fit better but I usually just mess them up.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

It's White Dial Wednesday.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> It's White Dial Wednesday.
> View attachment 16257805


What about black and white dial Wednesday?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> What about black and white dial Wednesday?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> The bid was around three hundy when I posted it. Stupid cheap. I was tempted to bid on it myself, for the nearly new section, but since we're sold out of that model, there's really no point, and I already have 2 Scorp's in the personal collection, which is enough.


$311, with 5d left to go. Bound to sell for more. I'd really like to pick one up to complete the (black, blue, white) triple, willing to pay a bit, but not foolish money for it. Another is bound to come up at some point. 

And let's face it, slow seller, unpopular watch, in a now obsolete case. Pfft, who would even want one? (Yeah, I got a sniper app on it, set up with my top price...)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> $311, with 5d left to go. Bound to sell for more. I'd really like to pick one up to complete the (black, blue, white) triple, willing to pay a bit, but not foolish money for it. Another is bound to come up at some point.
> 
> And let's face it, slow seller, unpopular watch, in a now obsolete case. Pfft, who would even want one? (Yeah, I got a sniper app on it, set up with my top price...)


Maybe. I don't pretend to understand eBay auction psychology. It looks like there have been 3 guys bidding on it so far, starting at $99, in increments ranging from $1 to $5 ("let me bid one more dollar, just to get rid of the riff-raff"). 

Looks like a Nacken Vintage White (also a full-lume dial) recently sold on Reddit for $485, for whatever that may be worth, as a benchmark. If the Scorp sells for $350 or $550, neither would be very shocking to me. 

If the guy selling the Azores gets $2399.99 for it, y'all may need to get the crash-cart out for me, 'cause that would be shocking.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> (Yeah, I got a sniper app on it, set up with my top price...)


Sniper app is the only way I ever buy anything there that you have to bid on. Any other strategy is sub-optimal (game-theoretically speaking ...)


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Did someone say white dial Wednesday?


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Avo said:


> Sniper app is the only way I ever buy anything there that you have to bid on. Any other strategy is sub-optimal (game-theoretically speaking ...)


Just set a reminder and snipe the old fashioned way. It's more fun.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

MrDisco99 said:


> Just set a reminder and snipe the old fashioned way. It's more fun.


Too frustrating - you'll never beat a.machine snipe.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hoping everyone who celebrates it is enjoying the holiday today. 

Cheers, gentlemen.

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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Hope everyone takes a moment to remember how thankful you are for NTH and Atticus today

🍻


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Power outage here in Los Angeles. Had to get the generator out to save our food in the fridge and more importantly to get my Black Friday order in for an NTH Barracuda.

What a way to spend thanksgiving.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Big_wrist said:


> Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Power outage here in Los Angeles. Had to get the generator out to save our food in the fridge and more importantly to get my Black Friday order in for an NTH Barracuda.
> 
> What a way to spend thanksgiving.


Saw that in the news. Don't know how you guys put up with it. Cheers, and hang in there.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I've never been one to give a damn about matching anything but this brown beauty was the perfect Thanksgiving watch.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

CuriousBob said:


> I've never been one to give a damn about matching anything but this brown beauty was the perfect Thanksgiving watch.
> View attachment 16260427


I'd like to see that on a burnt orange strap. Bet it'd be quite autumnal.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> I'd like to see that on a burnt orange strap. Bet it'd be quite autumnal.


I like the way you think. Google awaits.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Lab4Us said:


> (...)
> #
> View attachment 16256415


Stealing your picture for a question: is there /was there ever a an Antilles with minutes bezel instead of hours? Alternatively, an Azores with a rum/brown/sunburst dial?
I love the colors of the Antilles, but the hours on the rotating bezel are simply not my use case.
If get an Antilles and bug the Doc for a spare bezel (which I can pimp with dots as minute marks for 0-20min)...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHresher #NTHursday … plus ONE! Hey, at least it’s black on Black Friday!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Stealing your picture for a question: is there /was there ever a an Antilles with minutes bezel instead of hours? Alternatively, an Azores with a rum/brown/sunburst dial?
> I love the colors of the Antilles, but the hours on the rotating bezel are simply not my use case.
> If get an Antilles and bug the Doc for a spare bezel (which I can pimp with dots as minute marks for 0-20min)...


There was / is not such a configuration, and we don't sell the bezels for a swap. You'd want to buy both, and swap the innards between them, then presumably sell the one you don't want.

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

My 40mm subs have been seeing less wrist time lately due to so many new incoming. The Tourby, plus _six_ friggin G-Shocks. But everytime I strap this one on, it never fails to make me happy. Well done, Doc.








I think this one might make the trip with me tomorrow to Cabela's. Spend my fun money on something other than watches for a change. Thinking I _might_ come home with a new pistol.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> There was / is not such a configuration, and we don't sell the bezels for a swap. You'd want to buy both, and swap the innards between them, then presumably sell the one you don't want.


Thanks for the timely denial, so I know what I will get into!
Assuming that I could hardly sell a watch "like new, disassembled by an amateur with cheap tools only once in order to put a less attractive dial into it - not pressure tested" I guess I will simply make friends with the hour indices. The font is narrow enough, when I only squint hard enough....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Assuming that I could hardly sell a watch "like new, disassembled by an amateur with cheap tools only once in order to put a less attractive dial into it - not pressure tested"....


You're talking to a guy who started a watch business with no experience whatsoever. "Designed and produced by an amateur, flying by the seat of his pants" may as well have been the slogan.

So...anything's possible.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

You may be right, but I somehow doubt my ability to pull it off. I have ordered the rum Antilles only and will try to live with it 😋


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Wash on…wash off…


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

VH944 said:


> Assuming that I could hardly sell a watch "like new, disassembled by an amateur with cheap tools only once in order to put a less attractive dial into it - not pressure tested"


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16264198


I literally laughed out loud at this.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Sunday Sunday…


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Something new to me. 

Again. 

Lol.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

RotorRonin said:


> I literally laughed out loud at this.


Same here, that made my morning!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> @mconlonx - Scorpene White, bruh...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...aaand, it's mine. 

It was hanging at $383 for a while, and I sniped it at $407, well under my max, and even with shipping and tax ($452 net), under what I'd pay for one of these. Psyched to complete my triple (quadruple, actually) of Scorpenes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> ...aaand, it's mine.
> 
> It was hanging at $383 for a while, and I sniped it at $407, well under my max, and even with shipping and tax ($452 net), under what I'd pay for one of these. Psyched to complete my triple (quadruple, actually) of Scorpenes.


Nice! I was just wondering what the latest on that one was.

Looks like there are still no takers on the v.1 Azores listed for $2399.99...


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Nice! I was just wondering what the latest on that one was.
> 
> Looks like there are still no takers on the v.1 Azores listed for $2399.99...


That's a shame. OTOH, if the seller moved the decimal one place to the left, there'd be room for some bidding.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Last no-date v.2 Barracuda Vintage Black left in the world - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-vintage-black-no-date-v2

Looks like the v.2 Näcken Modern Blue sold out today.

I try to keep worldwide inventory levels around 300 pieces, total, and ~5 pieces per in-stock SKU, on average. As of the last count, we were a little under 300 total, and just a hair over 5 per SKU, on average (mostly because when we sell out of a SKU, the average number of pieces available for the remaining SKUs goes up).

The occasional opportunity to pick up a sold-out model on eBay notwithstanding (looking at you, Mike), I'm not BS'ing when I say most of what's available now isn't likely to be produced again, and certainly not any time soon. And we're probably looking at a price increase in 2022, out of necessity. Can't be helped.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, heads-up...

We'll be raising prices on bezel inserts and 20mm straps by $5, starting next Monday. 20mm bracelets will be going up $15.


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

Look what showed up from longislandwatch.com today. Well packaged and fast shipping. My Black Friday purchase. Finally part of the NTH club after lurking for many months here.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lurkers gonna lurk...

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Big_wrist said:


> Look what showed up from longislandwatch.com today. Well packaged and fast shipping. My Black Friday purchase. Finally part of the NTH club after lurking for many months here.
> 
> View attachment 16267917


Thanks for your purchase. Hope you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. If not, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.

Also - appropriate user name. If not for the appearance of a part of your thumb, I'd have asked why you were wearing the watch on your ankle.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

NTH is overrated. I just don't get the hype 








Oh yea, something came in from the Netherlands today.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> ...aaand, it's mine.
> 
> It was hanging at $383 for a while, and I sniped it at $407, well under my max, and even with shipping and tax ($452 net), under what I'd pay for one of these. Psyched to complete my triple (quadruple, actually) of Scorpenes.


Glad you got it! I was watching the auction out of curiosity. Looking forward to seeing some pictures.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

BVB









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

dustybutdigital said:


> No, its the Long Island Watch _Islander 20mm Brushed Solid-Link Watch Bracelet for SRPE Seiko 5 Watches Curved End links. _Fits the nth well and tapers to 16mm


I have ordered this for my Amphion Vintage Gilt! Should have it next Monday. Im a sucker for a strong taper to 16mm in my oyster bracelets.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My marketing team is preparing to do an email blast with an update to our "last piece left in the world" list.

For those who don't subscribe to our email, this is the list of those SKUs for which there's just 1 piece left in the world:

Nazario Azzurro - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nazario-azzurro-pre-order
DevilRay Black - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=154&cate_no=60&display_group=1
Swiftsure, Black DLC No Date - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/2k1subs-swiftsure-blackdlc
Swiftsure, Black, DLC With Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-swiftsure-black-dlc-date
Swiftsure, White - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/2k1subs-swiftsure-white
Thresher, Black, DLC NO Date - https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/2k1subs-thresher-dlc
Thresher, Black, With Date - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=208&cate_no=60&display_group=1
v.1 Barracuda Vintage Black, DLC, With Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-vintage-black-dlc-date
Nazario Vino Rosso, DLC - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nazario-vino-rosso-dlc-no-date
Nazario Vino Rosso - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=206&cate_no=60&display_group=1
v.2 Barracuda Vintage Black, No Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-barracuda-vintage-black-no-date-v2
For these, we're down to the last 2 or 3 pieces, all of which are now only available from a single store:

Scorpène Nomad, No Date – https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=133&cate_no=60&display_group=1
Bahia, Black, With Date – https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=138&cate_no=60&display_group=1
DevilRay, White – https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=159&cate_no=60&display_group=1
Thresher, Blue, With Date – https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=209&cate_no=60&display_group=1
v.1 Näcken Modern Blue, With Date – https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=170&cate_no=60&display_group=1
I just noticed that the second list is all IntoWatch, in Korea. If you email them (at info AT intowatch DOT com) before making a purchase, they'll remove the local Korean tax from the price. The owner, Jun, speaks fluent English, and is very responsive.

Regarding the $25 price increase coming next year - sorry to do it, but it's unavoidable, and overdue. It's still not quite enough to keep up with the annual rate of inflation, which would require a $50 increase.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> My marketing team is preparing to do an email blast with an update to our "last piece left in the world list.
> 
> For those who don't subscribe to our email, this is the list of those SKUs for which there's just 1 piece left in the world:
> 
> ...


PSA from my perspective:

Scorpène Nomad is one of the NTH watches I just had to have, sold an Amphion Commando to get one. But since there are still a couple kicking around after a few releases in the meantime, I really doubt it will make any new release list in the future. Buy now, if interested. Doc says many or all will never be produced again, and for sure I'd bet lots that the Scorpène Nomad is on that list to not be produced ever again. I was bummed-out to not have purchased a Scorpène White, new, and only lucked into a used model - don't be me. 

Considering worldwide manufacturing + shipping issues, price hikes are not a surprise, and I think NTH still represents VFM. I am surprised they are not steeper.

Over the weekend, I had a chance to try on the new Tudor Pelagos MN at an AD. They had one, no idea when they would have more, and it was display model only, not for sale. Although I bet if I offered enough over list... In any case, not impressed. I know there are Reasons, but a velcro fabric strap at what they are asking? Nope. Also, fixed springbars, too large for my tastes. Also tried on a BB58.

Takeaway: I can see why people love the BB58, and why, for many, even faithful homages just don't work. Yes, I would spend stupid money on one over a NTH Sub, if I liked such things. However, the Pelagos... I like the design, currently have a mod in mind with similar dial and snowflake hands, built a Vostok homage upon a time. But... nope. Not for Tudor money. I'd be happier - size and regular springbars - with a "v.1 Näcken Modern Blue, With Date" and an Odin Blue bezel insert.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> PSA from my perspective:
> 
> Scorpène Nomad is one of the NTH watches I just had to have, sold an Amphion Commando to get one. But since there are still a couple kicking around after a few releases in the meantime, I really doubt it will make any new release list in the future. Buy now, if interested. Doc says many or all will never be produced again, and for sure I'd bet lots that the Scorpène Nomad is on that list to not be produced ever again. I was bummed-out to not have purchased a Scorpène White, new, and only lucked into a used model - don't be me.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the kind words, Mike. The VFM thing is all relative / subjective, obviously, but I think my team needs to do a better job when it comes to how we communicate about the value of the total package we deliver. It's hard to include the value of a 6 year movement guarantee in a specs-for-price comparison, just as one example. 

As you've surmised, we'll likely cut back on the variety of Subs designs we produce, starting next year. 

My tentative plan is to keep a small number (2-4) of the better-selling versions in the lineup, more or less all the time, and periodically mix things up by introducing new designs, or bringing back designs we haven't produced in 2-3 years. But those new and throwback designs will be produced in smaller numbers - just 25-50 pieces at a time. 

We've got plans for 8-10 new designs to be revealed next year, not counting the Todaro and Upholder. Most of what's in the lineup now won't be seen again for at least 2-3 years, if ever.

I hate raising prices. I really do. I just hope people can accept it, and perhaps even take note that our last price increase on the Subs was in the spring of 2019. That will make it 3 years, when we raise prices in spring of 2022.

The $25 increase on $700 is just 3.6%. Inflation since 2019 has been 8.2%. On the DevilRays, we raised the price $25 from last year, which was a 4.8% increase. Inflation since last year is 6.9%.

Adjusted for the cost / quality increases we've had, the 40mm Subs should be $750, if not $775, right now. The Tropics and DevilRays should both be at least $25-$30 more than what they are. We held back when we priced everything this year, mostly because it was obvious that inflation was hurting everyone.

It's not just shipping costs, although they're a big factor. We're also seeing / hearing about rising raw materials costs, and rolling power outages interrupting production. What used to take 4 months now takes 6 months. It's become impossible to plan anything too far ahead.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Over the weekend, I had a chance to try on the new Tudor Pelagos MN at an AD. In any case, not impressed. I know there are Reasons, but a velcro fabric strap at what they are asking? Nope. Also, fixed springbars, too large for my tastes.
> 
> I'd be happier - size and regular springbars - with a "v.1 Näcken Modern Blue, With Date" and an Odin Blue bezel insert.


Having seen the pictures of the Pelagos MN I started considering that very same mod to a Nacken Modern Blue. The fact that I have modded every NTH Sub that I own would support that idea. I may still do it.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Where are the photoshop guys?

Nacken Modern Blue + Odin Blue insert. Mock that up, willya?


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## clivus (Dec 1, 2021)

Finally, I joined the club.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

clivus said:


> View attachment 16269851
> 
> 
> Finally, I joined the club.


I'm fairly certain my first post on WUS was in the previous NTH thread.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> My marketing team is preparing to do an email blast with an update to our "last piece left in the world" list.
> 
> For those who don't subscribe to our email, this is the list of those SKUs for which there's just 1 piece left in the world:
> 
> ...


I just bought my newest Barracuda from Serious Watches. That box came in like a day and a half via UPS(Unlike the hell I'm going through with DHL on another Ch. Ward right now), and was wrapped up nice in their branded paper and included a hand written note. Little things like stupid thank you notes go a big way with me for some reason.

Not sure if you care about that sort of stuff but it's probably good to know that your ADs are doing a good job with your product. So far I've bought directly from you, from Island, and from Serious. Zero complaints about all transactions.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

clivus said:


> View attachment 16269851
> 
> 
> Finally, I joined the club.


First post on WUS!!!

Madness I say!

Welcome!


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

It came up a couple weeks ago about sunken end links on somebody's watch and I had suggested possibly bad spring bars but it definitely wasn't the bars causing it. There are no differences between the V1 and V2 cases other than crown guards right?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> It came up a couple weeks ago about sunken end links on somebody's watch and I had suggested possibly bad spring bars but it definitely wasn't the bars causing it. There are no differences between the V1 and V2 cases other than crown guards right?
> View attachment 16269947


Yes and no.

We went out of our way to make sure that many of the parts for the v.1 case would fit the v.2 case, including the end-links on the bracelet. While the case dimensions are the same overall (11.5mm thick being the one I'd focus on here), the case was completely re-designed. 

It's possible that the way the end-links look next to the lugs would be different from the v.1 to the v.2 case, owing to a difference in case design, notwithstanding the fact that several other parts (including end-links) are compatible.

The pic someone posted, which prompted me to comment about the visual difference, did make it look like the BOR end-link was more recessed below the lugs than I remembered or noticed it appearing on my v.1 cases. But I just chalked it up to the pic showing more detail than my eyes could notice in real life.

Your pic here, showing the two side-by-side, does make it obvious there's some difference in how the end-links fit the lugs.

My guess is that there are two main differences at play here...

1. The mid-case on the v.2 has a slightly smaller diameter than the v.1's. To maintain the same lug-length of 48mm, the lugs on the v.2 would need to be proportionally longer. The end-links are unchanged, in the distance between the mid-case and lug-holes, but the lugs are longer compared to the mid-case, so the end-links sit a little in-board from the tips of the lugs.

2. The bezel is thinner (shorter), which makes the case walls taller, albeit, their height is disguised by the chamfered edges. The taller case walls extend to the lugs, which makes the end-links more recessed.

Honestly, though, I'm just guessing. I don't have any v.2's in my own collection, so can't compare them side-by-side.

@rpm1974 might be able to compare the v.1 and v.2 case designs, and possibly offer a better explanation for what we see here.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> We went out of our way to make sure that many of the parts for the v.1 case would fit the v.2 case, including the end-links on the bracelet. While the case dimensions are the same overall (11.5mm thick being the one I'd focus on here), the case was completely re-designed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the possible explanations. That makes sense. Now I can definitely see the differences between the two.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^that pic of the lug holes reminds me...

Last week, someone asked us this:

_"Question about springbars for my Nacken. I am looking to buy new ones (fat, shoulderless) but need to know the MAX size for end to fit the drilled lug."_

I didn't know for sure. Still don't. I told him I think the holes are 0.5mm in diameter, but I could be wrong. Now that I'm thinking about it, they're probably 1mm.

It's not something we'd see notated on the case engineering diagrams we get from our factory, so I can't look it up just by opening that file. Perhaps somewhere in all my thousands of emails with my factory, they told me the diameter of the lug holes, but I'll be damned if I remember it, or when they might have told me. 

I don't know their diameter, because I don't need to know. The watches come with spring bars. I'm not specifying what their diameter is, much less the diameter of their ends. I never needed to know the bars' diameter until they needed to explain to me the spring bars in the BOR's need to be smaller. I let my vendor figure this stuff out.

I get that for WIS, this might not be a strange inquiry, but when someone asks something like this, a question about a very specific detail, about something fairly esoteric, I wonder how many WIS would expect most brands to be able to respond. Imagine trying to get that info by way of emailing Seiko.

In response to a pic of one of the Subs that I posted online, someone once asked me the crystal height. Not crystal thickness. The distance between the crystal and the dial. All my mental gears seized up at once.

Again, it's not something we'd necessarily see notated in the case diagram. Even if it was, what use is that info? Why would anyone assume I'd know? 

I didn't even know how to conceptualize that. Was he asking the distance from the dial to the inner crystal surface, or the outer surface? Measured at the edge, or in the middle? It's double-domed, so it matters, because those would be two different dimensions.

Watch geeks are weird.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Watch geeks are weird.


So how many ridges are on the crowns of each model? 



Just kidding, Don't shoot!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> In response to a pic of one of the Subs that I posted online, someone once asked me the crystal height. Not crystal thickness. The distance between the crystal and the dial. All my mental gears seized up at once.
> 
> …
> 
> Watch geeks are weird.


To be fair, if someone is about to mod something, and they can talk to the guy who designed it, maybe they can save significant money by getting an answer straight from the horse’s mouth, as it were. 

We can’t ask questions like that of Seiko, but that’s part of why buying your watches is worth it, and it’s part of how you market your watches: we get access to you. 

I’m not saying you need to—or even should—know the answers to these types of questions, just that I wouldn’t blame a guy for asking.

PS: what’s the Pantone color used on the v1 Nacken dial? Asking for a friend…


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

CuriousBob said:


> So how many ridges are on the crowns of each model?
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding, Don't shoot!


Yeah but Doc, what's the angle of the dangle, because I want to maximise the motion of the ocean?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> To be fair, if someone is about to mod something, and they can talk to the guy who designed it, maybe they can save significant money by getting an answer straight from the horse’s mouth, as it were.
> 
> We can’t ask questions like that of Seiko, but that’s part of why buying your watches is worth it, and it’s part of how you market your watches: we get access to you.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I get it, and I suppose I make a reasonable distinction between information which might be useful for some reason, like the size of the lug holes, and something that has no apparent usefulness, like the number of turns it takes to screw in the case back.

I also understand that part of the value in buying from a mico may be the expectation of better, more personalized support from the brand, often delivered by the brand owner, who is often willing to entertain more oddball questions than might be put to a brand like Seiko.

I was just making an observation encompassing all of that - we get asked some oddball stuff, stuff we often don't know.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> ^^^that pic of the lug holes reminds me...
> 
> Last week, someone asked us this:
> 
> ...



Right on cue. Posted about an hour ago in a Seiko thread...




Iron swan said:


> Does anyone know off the top of their head what size the spring bars are, diameter and tips.
> I remember toxic natos had some that were an exact match but his site is no longer.
> 
> Open to a good suitable replacement as well.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The Pelagos FXD got me thinking, I purchased a few MN-_style_ straps for the Thresher.



















Kind of an old-school military Tudor-esque look if only that the Thresher is blue and a dive watch on a similar looking strap. There really is nothing else linking them otherwise. I will say the MN strap might be better than any NATO or Zulu strap I've ever tried.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Right on cue. Posted about an hour ago in a Seiko thread...


I hope no one reads my earlier post as a "rant". I wasn't. Honestly, just an observation.

I imagine it's much the same with any hobby wherein the people involved are likely to do any sort of "customization". I'm sure there are guys on car forums asking each other for esoteric details about certain components, in order to determine compatibility of an aftermarket part.

The thing is with cars - you can't necessarily email Ford and get a reliable / accurate answer if you ask for the maximum size wheel / tire combo that will fit in your Mustang's wheel wells before the tires rub the sides when you turn. That's a question for the gas monkeys, not for Ford.

There are lots of things like that, with watches. Guys email us to ask what other bezel inserts will fit our watches, or if our bracelets will fit some other watch from another brand, or what our case back diameter is. The list of things we might be asked, yet we'd have no reason to know, is endless.

It makes me wonder about brands that sell watches with proprietary straps. I think, "the rubber or leather strap will eventually wear out. The case doesn't have standard lugs. What's the owner going to do when he needs a new strap? Will the brand have them available for purchase? At what price? How many people are going to modify a stock aftermarket strap by cutting it to fit the proprietary lugs instead? How many will curse the heavens as they're doing it, and swear they'll never buy a watch from that brand again?"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> The Pelagos FXD got me thinking, I purchased a few MN-_style_ straps for the Thresher.
> 
> View attachment 16271118
> 
> ...


I don't mind if people compare the Thresher to the Pelagos. The Pelagos was one of our inspirations. There's a lot about the Pelagos that I really like. I hope people see the Thresher as similar in some ways, yet still original enough to be considered its own thing.

Everyone seems to rave about those elastic straps. I've tried one on, and was instantly repulsed by how it felt - too snug for my tastes, and yet not entirely secure.

Yesterday, I _FINALLY_ started working on the tribute to Sgt Mack design. I also started looking into sourcing a matching elastic strap. Since I don't wear them, I don't know what differentiates a good one from a bad one. So I'll be looking around for that info soon enough.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Yesterday, I _FINALLY_ started working on the tribute to Sgt Mack design. I also started looking into sourcing a matching elastic strap. Since I don't wear them, I don't know what differentiates a good one from a bad one. So I'll be looking around for that info soon enough.


Nice! Will the elastic strap be 1.1mm thick, or 1.15mm?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Nice! Will the elastic strap be 1.1mm thick, or 1.15mm?


You joke, but as I was searching for a supplier, and comparing their product pages, I noted that there doesn't seem to be any uniformity in how they present their specs. Some will mention the buckle is 304 or 316 stainless, but many don't. Some mention strap thickness, but many don't.

That's the thing - I don't know what the "standard" expectations are for these straps, among watch geeks. I don't know, because I never needed to, so I never cared to find out.

Now, if I want to avoid pissing away a bunch of money on straps people are going to hate, I have to learn as much as I can about these types of straps, as quickly as I can, and hopefully as cheaply as I can.

I only contacted one supplier so far. I asked a pretty simple question - can I get a sample before I place a larger order?

"Yes, but how many do you want to order?"

Seriously? I don't know. If I buy any at all, I'll need at least 50, maybe 100, maybe 1000. What's the MOQ per size/color? What's the unit price when I buy in bulk? What's the lead time? Maybe give me some useful information before asking me to figure out how many I want to buy.

Imagine emailing us with a question about a watch, and us responding, "yes, but how many are you going to buy?"

I don't know what the vendors see when they look at my profile on these product sourcing sites, but whatever it is, I must look like the hot girl at the prom, judging by how many cold intro requests I receive. I can't believe that I look like some random tire-kicker when I contact them with "buying questions" (an old salesman term for questions someone asks when they're serious about buying something).

They must see some details about my past purchase history. There's no point in them starting out by trying to "qualify" me, when I know that they'll be emailing me daily until I either buy something or tell them to stop. I'm already qualified. Just answer my questions, or better yet, provide me with info that's actually useful, and if it's a good fit for me, I'll make a purchase.

Then again, it's been 23 days since I started inquiring with European case factories, and I'm yet to receive a meaningful response. Maybe "tire-kicker" is exactly the image I project, without realizing it.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> I don't mind if people compare the Thresher to the Pelagos. The Pelagos was one of our inspirations. There's a lot about the Pelagos that I really like. I hope people see the Thresher as similar in some ways, yet still original enough to be considered its own thing.
> 
> Everyone seems to rave about those elastic straps. I've tried one on, and was instantly repulsed by how it felt - too snug for my tastes, and yet not entirely secure.
> 
> Yesterday, I _FINALLY_ started working on the tribute to Sgt Mack design. I also started looking into sourcing a matching elastic strap. Since I don't wear them, I don't know what differentiates a good one from a bad one. So I'll be looking around for that info soon enough.


I do see some Pelagos in the Thesher but it's certainly its own thing. I like the Pelagos for what it is and the new FXD actually intrigues me. It's less of a luxury watch or piece of jewelry. I think Tudor's only mistake might've been attaching the Pelagos name to it.

I don't know what makes a "good" or "proper" MN strap. I know these ones I purchased don't seem to follow the traditional pattern that I've seem pictured but they were super cheap so I thought it was a good way to try the type out. They don't feel cheap but I'm not sure how traditional they are or if there are different ways of executing the design.

NDC Straps claim that their MN straps are "real" because they use the same material the original straps used. At 10x the price I paid and just a single color/pattern offered, I went the cheaper route this time. I wouldn't be against purchasing one of the "real" MN straps from NDC just to see if there really is enough of a difference in material or design between the cheap version and the alleged real McCoy to justify the price. All of the straps I looked at had large, somewhat distracting engraving on the buckles that I really could do without. I plan to purchase a couple more form various outfits to see what they're all about.

5-ring Zulus offered are too short for me to use comfortably. All of the Natos and Zulus seem to put additional stress on the spring bars the more you tighten them to your wrist. Maybe that's just me and my larger wrists and/or how I want to wear them. It's probably less of an issue for shoulder-less spring bars/drilled lugs and obviously not a concern for fixed bar watches at all. The MN strap tightness that you mention seems to come primarily from the elastic nature of the strap material. To me, it feels very natural and uniform. It also seems to to take some stress of the spring bars since the snugness of the strap is not entirely based on what hole you cinch down to. Next time I dive or snorkel, my watch will have one of these straps.


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> Where are the photoshop guys?
> 
> Nacken Modern Blue + Odin Blue insert. Mock that up, willya?



Not perfect, but...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> Not perfect, but...
> 
> View attachment 16271753


Perfect enough.

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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

New watch band day…again 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Suede on the Tropics
Croc embossed Italian leather on the 2K1s
…all from Strapsco…


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## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

docvail said:


> The thing is with cars - you can't necessarily email Ford and get a reliable / accurate answer if you ask for the maximum size wheel / tire combo that will fit in your Mustang's wheel wells before the tires rub the sides when you turn. That's a question for the gas monkeys, not for Ford.


I used to sell Mazdas, had a customer order a Miata with Brembo brakes. He asked me for the spec of a particular bolt on the wheel assembly.

Brought him right out to meet our lead Tech.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

devilsbite said:


> I used to sell Mazdas, had a customer order a Miata with Brembo brakes. He asked me for the spec of a particular bolt on the wheel assembly.
> 
> Brought him right out to meet our lead Tech.


Probably 10mm. Mazda always had those everywhere  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

Oh, no, I mean full spec. Not just measurements but alloy, tensile strength…



eta: He was on about every difference between the base car and the brakes upgrade. Why every single detail mattered and wanted me to confirm his car would come with the full package.

Our Master Tech did a great job...for about two hours. Told me "happy to do it once but never again".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

According to my auto mechanic friends, no matter what the question is, the answer is always 10mm, because that's the socket size that's always missing.

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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

juskiewrx said:


> Not perfect, but...
> 
> View attachment 16271850


That might have just pushed me over the edge. That would be Sub number 6 in my collection. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

F'rizzle. One time I was changing out the battery in my wife's car, and the sockets I had weren't deep enough to reach the bolts on the bracket holding the battery in place. I called my friend Sean, the mechanic, to see if he had a socket set with deeper sockets.

Sean: "Yeah, I do. C'mon over. What size do you need, 10mm?"

Me: "Yeah, how'd you know?"

Sean: "It's always 10mm."

Before Facebook erased me, I was in a group chat with Sean and a half dozen other guys, at least four of whom are mechanics. There was a "10mm" meme at least once a week.

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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I don't mind if people compare the Thresher to the Pelagos. The Pelagos was one of our inspirations. There's a lot about the Pelagos that I really like. I hope people see the Thresher as similar in some ways, yet still original enough to be considered its own thing.
> 
> Everyone seems to rave about those elastic straps. I've tried one on, and was instantly repulsed by how it felt - too snug for my tastes, and yet not entirely secure.
> 
> Yesterday, I _FINALLY_ started working on the tribute to Sgt Mack design. I also started looking into sourcing a matching elastic strap. Since I don't wear them, I don't know what differentiates a good one from a bad one. So I'll be looking around for that info soon enough.


For lower quantities, consider teaming up with a strap company. In my experience, Watch Steward nylon comes closest to an EO MN, with Cincy Strap Co elastic strap a real close second. Happen to like the Watch Steward clasp better, though.

FWIW, the strap on the new Pelagos is a nylon NATO material, velcro closure design. Far cry from what we know as a traditional MN style..


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> For lower quantities, consider teaming up with a strap company. In my experience, Watch Steward nylon comes closest to an EO MN, with Cincy Strap Co elastic strap a real close second. Happen to like the Watch Steward clasp better, though.
> 
> FWIW, the strap on the new Pelagos is a nylon NATO material, velcro closure design. Far cry from what we know as a traditional MN style..


I may look into it.

Then again - I've been down this road before, years ago, dealing with another "strap guy" on another project. The experience helped reinforce the value of being directly involved in production, rather than delegating to someone else based on apparent expertise.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Full-indexed bezel inserts are just the best.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Yesterday, I _FINALLY_ started working on the tribute to Sgt Mack design. I also started looking into sourcing a matching elastic strap. Since I don't wear them, I don't know what differentiates a good one from a bad one. So I'll be looking around for that info soon enough.


Erikas... the gold standard against which I judge all elastic and MN straps. Solid, good quality, not too stretchy but just enough... the goldilocks elastic strap

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> According to my auto mechanic friends, no matter what the question is, the answer is always 10mm, because that's the socket size that's always missing.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Way back when, in my former life I was an Auto Mechanic for 10 years in the 1990's. I can confirm that statement is true!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)




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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Not an NTH but another application for the recently purchased MN strap. Watch is from Silver Watch Co. from a few years ago.









On an NTH note, can anyone recommend where I can get all black sword hands that would fit the Santa Fe? I thinking those hands and a different bezel. Maybe a black Odin or black Amphion.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Yeah, so...




















I think I'll actually keep this sucker stock for a bit. Just because I have a Nomad (or Vanguard...) bezel insert doesn't mean I have to use it...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

mconlonx said:


> Yeah, so...
> 
> View attachment 16273375
> 
> ...


I like that bezel insert. Besides the black Odin or Amphion insert, I'll have to consider the Scorpene insert for my Santa Fe.


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Guess today qualifies as #ThresherThursday or #NTHursday, soooo...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Yeah, so...
> 
> View attachment 16273375
> 
> ...


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> You joke, but as I was searching for a supplier, and comparing their product pages, I noted that there doesn't seem to be any uniformity in how they present their specs. Some will mention the buckle is 304 or 316 stainless, but many don't. Some mention strap thickness, but many don't.
> 
> That's the thing - I don't know what the "standard" expectations are for these straps, among watch geeks. I don't know, because I never needed to, so I never cared to find out.
> 
> ...


Hawkrigger.com is my go to for elastic straps, fantastic quality, nice elastic and quality stitching.

They don't fasten with a hook but with a buckle.

I personally wouldn't spend 2x more for an Erica's MN, but that's me.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Oops, some sorta double post, Edit: Sorted


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Hawkrigger.com is my go-to for MN style straps, not your average hook style elastic but buckles. I wouldn't spend 2x more for Erica's personally
> 
> Hawkrigger.com is my go to for elastic straps, fantastic quality, nice elastic and quality stitching.
> 
> ...


I ordered both from EO and Stu from Hawkrigger this past black friday sales. I bought more from EO though because I have existing colorways for most of the Riggerbands he has. They are both good and are the closest to EO you can find on the market IMO. And I have tried almost every iteration out on the market today.

But I always go back to EO. Yes, some balk at the price and say it's not worth it. Some say that about NTH as well no? Just sayin.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> I ordered both from EO and Stu from Hawkrigger this past black friday sales. I bought more from EO though because I have existing colorways for most of the Riggerbands he has. They are both good and are the closest to EO you can find on the market IMO. And I have tried almost every iteration out on the market today.
> 
> But I always go back to EO. Yes, some balk at the price and say it's not worth it. Some say that about NTH as well no? Just sayin.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Cue that "not good VFM" guy chiming in, in 3...2...

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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> According to my auto mechanic friends, no matter what the question is, the answer is always 10mm, because that's the socket size that's always missing.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...





docvail said:


> F'rizzle. One time I was changing out the battery in my wife's car, and the sockets I had weren't deep enough to reach the bolts on the bracket holding the battery in place. I called my friend Sean, the mechanic, to see if he had a socket set with deeper sockets.
> 
> Sean: "Yeah, I do. C'mon over. What size do you need, 10mm?"
> 
> ...





PowerChucker said:


> Way back when, in my former life I was an Auto Mechanic for 10 years in the 1990's. I can confirm that statement is true!


I'm not a mechanic. But I can confirm this odd "issue". 
10mm sockets are gold. Keep them safe. Hide them from everyone, even those you trust.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - the straps -

I doubt I'll source them from any of the places you guys would buy a single strap. It's just not economical. But also, like I said, I did that once before, and the experience taught me to source straps myself whenever possible.

I may invest in buying one or more of those straps, from those sources, but only for comparison's sake. As such, I appreciate the reco's and opinions on who's selling the good stuff. 

Since I don't know much about these straps, I'd be interested in opinions about why one strap is better than another. Is it thickness, hardware, something else?


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

josiahg52 said:


> On an NTH note, can anyone recommend where I can get all black sword hands that would fit the Santa Fe? I thinking those hands and a different bezel. Maybe a black Odin or black Amphion.
> View attachment 16273252


I put an Oberon bezel on my Santa Fe as it used matching C3 lume and the red triangle. It you want that full indices bezel then I recommend using the Amphion one for the same reasons. 

Mine was also modded with skeleton snowflake hands by the first owner. This watch definitely works better without the Mercedes hands. I believe any Miyota hands work so check out Tiger Concept:



http://www.tiger-concept.com/hands-all.html











Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Re - the straps -
> 
> I doubt I'll source them from any of the places you guys would buy a single strap. It's just not economical. But also, like I said, I did that once before, and the experience taught me to source straps myself whenever possible.
> 
> ...


I only own two: one from WatchGecko and the other from eBay. The eBay strap just feels cheaper and the elastic seems less stretchy. The Gecko strap is very comfy and feels like it’ll last longer than the other. Think about the elastic on your old drawers - that’s the eBay one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Re - the straps -
> 
> I doubt I'll source them from any of the places you guys would buy a single strap. It's just not economical. But also, like I said, I did that once before, and the experience taught me to source straps myself whenever possible.
> 
> ...


Actually what about single pass elastic zulu straps? I've only seen them available on alibaba.

But to compare and contrast. To me, the hardware on the EO is great and probably the most expensive. The alternatives like the watch steward is decent enough. The fabrics of the watch steward is dependent upon which size you get. Meaning the 22mm is slightly stiffer and most of the 20mm are super soft. I have the watch geckos zulu nylons, but they are a bit to large for my smaller wrists. I still have a few, but the zulu nylon EO types are no longer for sale last I checked. 



Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16274169
> 
> 
> View attachment 16274172


That is an awesome collection of Scorpene. The white dialed is still my favourite. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> I put an Oberon bezel on my Santa Fe as it used matching C3 lume and the red triangle. It you want that full indices bezel then I recommend using the Amphion one for the same reasons.
> 
> Mine was also modded with skeleton snowflake hands by the first owner. This watch definitely works better without the Mercedes hands. I believe any Miyota hands work so check out Tiger Concept:
> 
> ...


I like your house.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Friday!
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Still this one.










Dat glo, tho...










OK, so here's the dealio: I was sure I didn't like BoP bracelet. Bought one, tried it out. Loved the fit and quality; thought it looked a bit out of place on very tool watch Scorpene black, happy enough with stock 3-link bracelet. Sold it off. 

Now, I'm glad I picked this one up. Revising my attitude regarding BoP bracelet. Part of it is the adjustment and articulation:
Short links, so it's like having a bracelet made up of half links. 
And then each individual link pivots. Very comfort. Much drape. 
Screws, link-to-link, are spaced slightly longer (like 1mm) than the spacing between 2 micro-adjust holes on the clasp. Combine with 6 micro adjust holes, and even if it might take a few minutes with multiple link swaps and adjustments, if you seriously can't get this bracelet to fit right, maybe consider straps...? Was slightly looser than I like, added two links, micro-adjusted back 4 holes, and voila! fit is better than most bracelets where you just luck out or compromise.

NTH Beads of Rice (BoP) bracelet: recommended.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Busting out another of my collectibles between my NTH’ for this soon to be 80+ degree day in West Texas on 3 Dec!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Regarding elastic straps, I’ve tried most of the range of variations. I finally settled on the Watch Steward Minimalist version. More to follow…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First pics of Todaro and Upholder.































Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

RmacMD said:


> I like your house.


It's a little place called Burghley House. They often use it for filming TV and movies, most recently The Crown and the new Flash movie as Batman's home. It was also Wayne Manor for Michael Keaton's original Batman movie. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Those bezels look kind of . . . shiny. They both look good, though. Kind of like the Upholder right now but not sure of the dial. Sort of how I felt with the Scurfa Treasure Seeker but I ended up loving that so . . . The Todaro will definitely catch the eyes of anyone who's looking - very unique.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

josiahg52 said:


> Those bezels look kind of . . . shiny.


I think it's because of the plastic protective films being on the bezels.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Slant said:


> I think it's because of the plastic protective films being on the bezels.


Good call. Not judging. Waaaaay to early for that. Or rather, make a decision. "Judge" makes it sound like we have a final say in what's best. Super excited to see what's coming from NTH.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> First pics of Todaro and Upholder.
> 
> View attachment 16275981
> View attachment 16275982
> ...


I might as well just have Payroll forward my checks to you from now on. Both of these look stellar.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

CuriousBob said:


> I might as well just have Payroll forward my checks to you from now on. Both of these look stellar.


I feel you. I swore I was done buying watches this year. Seven watches later . . .

Next year


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I'm a bracelet guy but I thought I'd try a new look for my new Barracuda. I like it. Ok... I really like it.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> First pics of Todaro and Upholder.


Looking good!

I'm going to echo an earlier suggestion (don't remember who made it) for some yellow on the bezel: either the dot or the triangle surround would be great.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> First pics of Todaro and Upholder.
> 
> View attachment 16275981
> View attachment 16275982
> ...


That Todaro... numbers... mmm...

Still, hoping for Scorpène Vino Rosso... not holding my breath... 🤣


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

The more I look at those, the more I wish there was a little bit of yellow in the bezel triangle (triangle or pip).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> I think it's because of the plastic protective films being on the bezels.


This. The watches were covered in plastic. The bezels are no different than the current bezels.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Looking good!
> 
> I'm going to echo an earlier suggestion (don't remember who made it) for some yellow on the bezel: either the dot or the triangle surround would be great.


Noted.

Not gonna happen.

But noted.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Don't tell the Antilles but I may be about to have a new favourite watch in the Upholder......










OK maybe it will be a joint favourite because the Antilles is a fantastic looking watch.


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## edogg (Sep 28, 2019)

Just happened upon this thread, I received this ~10 days ago (shout out to *Serious Watches*) and have already posted it twice on WRUW daily threads....because I have yet to take it off!

After 7 days it was at +15; I reset it and three days ago and its sitting at +5!

This is a keeper - the dial is amazing. Two minor wishes: a little more AR coating and better fit end links at the lugs - minor.

Thanks Doc!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Noted.


Wow!



docvail said:


> Not gonna happen.


Oh.



docvail said:


> But noted.


OK, we take what can get!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Random sunday morning watch thought. 

When I saw the renders of the Todaro and Upholder I immediately knew that _if_ I were to pick one up, it would be the Todaro. I've kinda always liked/wanted an Anonimo, be it original Italian, or newer Swiss. 

Then the prototype shots came and I breathed a sigh of relief, because it just didnt grab me like I thought it would(it's awesome, dont get me wrong), and I couldn't put my finger on why. 

I figured it out this morning. One of these two differences, and I probably wouldn't be able to resist: put it in a 2K case, or better yet, put it in the DR case. 

It's nothing against the 40mm sub case, hell, I've got three. But I feel the 00 needs a cushion case, or just a larger one. Just one man's opinion. 

Anyway, my wallet is breathing a sigh of relief. Even more so after last Saturdays trip to Cabelas and the purchase of an almost $800 pistol that as of yesterday afternoon has $600 of mods on it, with more planned


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Hmmm, a 2K1 case . . .


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

edogg said:


> Just happened upon this thread, I received this ~10 days ago (shout out to *Serious Watches*) and have already posted it twice on WRUW daily threads....because I have yet to take it off!
> 
> After 7 days it was at +15; I reset it and three days ago and its sitting at +5!
> 
> ...


Thanks for your purchase and the feedback on Serious. Glad you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

FWIW - there are 2 layers of AR inside the crystal, and the end-links were re-designed last year, based on multiple customers' suggestions, to have them recessed slightly from the lugs, whereas the old end-links sat flush on the v.1 Subs' lugs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Random sunday morning watch thought.
> 
> When I saw the renders of the Todaro and Upholder I immediately knew that _if_ I were to pick one up, it would be the Todaro. I've kinda always liked/wanted an Anonimo, be it original Italian, or newer Swiss.
> 
> ...


We've got plans for the DevilRay cases we had left after the most recent production. They're already spoken for. More on that in 2-3 months.

I'm working out details for future 2K1 productions, but I doubt we'll be doing a Todaro version.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHftw


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I'm working out details for future 2K1 productions, but I doubt we'll be doing a Todaro version


Since the 2K1s are my favorite sized watch by a long shot, here’s to hoping you’ll do something at least as unique as the Todaro!


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## edogg (Sep 28, 2019)

docvail said:


> Thanks for your purchase and the feedback on Serious. Glad you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.
> 
> FWIW - there are 2 layers of AR inside the crystal, and the end-links were re-designed last year, based on multiple customers' suggestions, to have them recessed slightly from the end-links, whereas the old end-links sat flush on the v.1 Subs' lugs.


Thanks for the feedback - let me be clear: I really like the watch!

You have delivered a product to the community at large that most would not be able to obtain otherwise - I appreciate that.

I only mentioned those two items b/c in the OP you invited feedback (I also appreciate that you stand by your product!) - just goes to show different takes from different folks.

I have been eyeing this one for awhile, and like the v.2 case with the crown guards, but was really interested in the dial and your process to create it. From what I understand its not easy and has a high failure rate - no guts no glory.

Its obviously a winner, its difficult to get as they sell out frequently. Thanks again!









## WRUW on 24 November 2021? ##







www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

edogg said:


> Thanks for the feedback - let me be clear: I really like the watch!
> 
> You have delivered a product to the community at large that most would not be able to obtain otherwise - I appreciate that.
> 
> ...


I'm happy you like the watch.

I know I used to get defensive or argumentative about design choices we've made, or any number of other topics when they were raised online. More recently, I try not to sound defensive or argumentative, if I respond. I tend to worry people might think I'm rude if I say nothing, but I try to keep things cut-and-dry as much as possible.

We get a lot of feedback. Mostly positive. Occasionally negative. If the negative feedback turns into a common complaint, and it seems reasonable, we'll typically try to address it in some way through improvements to the product, or service, or whatever. We've done that a lot. Hopefully, it shows.

But, a lot of times, the negative feedback runs counter to the majority opinion, which is overwhelmingly positive.

Over the weekend, someone emailed us out of the blue to complain about the bracelet and clasp on his watch. Just a few days before, Marc from Long Island Watch told me our bracelets are much nicer than what comes with his own Islander brand. Not too long ago, I had a guy tell me our bracelet is nicer than what he got with his Tudor Black Bay, the bracelet for which costs more than the watch we sell. I was recently looking at some much more expensive watches, and noticing how craptastic their bracelets and clasps are.

Recently I've seen forum comments knocking microbrands for all using the same clasps, as if that makes them "bad". I guess we're all supposed to invent / design our own, no matter the development and production cost (both of which would be higher, and would unavoidably end up reflected in the product's price).

I know quality bracelets and clasps. For what we sell the watches for, our bracelets and clasps are quality.

When we made the original Subs prototypes, I thought the crystals had too much glare. They only had 1 layer of AR. The solution was to use 2 layers of AR, both on the inside, to prevent an exterior layer from being scratched. Without an outer layer, though, the anti-reflectiveness isn't as good. So it was a compromise we made, consciously, in favor of long-term customer satisfaction.

I now see brands advertising more than 2 layers of AR, which seems like a good idea on paper, unless you realize AR coatings generally have a slight tint to them (there's some science about the wavelengths of colors playing a part here, but it's not worth getting into). Adding more layers may cut down on glare, but potentially at the cost of distorting the dial color, and making the dial / hands harder to see.

We could make the crystal flat. That would cut down on the reflections. But then, no dome, which I think is a nice, vintage-flavor feature of the design. Again, we're making decisions, consciously, knowing the consequences of the compromises we're making.

When we designed the v.1 Subs originally, we made a conscious decision to have the end-links sit flush with the lugs. We thought that looked "right". But for a while, I had some after-market bracelets on the prototypes, because the original bracelets we got with the protos were wrong. Those end-links on the after-market pieces were slightly recessed, and I remember comments here on the forums, from people saying it looked "cheap", like the end-links were an "after-thought".

Message received, loud and clear - make the end-links flush.

Then, years later, guys started complaining the opposite way, pointing out how various Rolex / Tudor references had end-links that were recessed slightly, saying that looked better, more "classy", or whatever.

Meanwhile, we'd gotten complaints about the "soft" definition of the center-section of the end-link. Okay, no problem. We took the extra steps of machining a groove on either side of the center-section of the links, and reduced their thickness, to further enhance the perception of depth between the center section and outer sections, and make them sit slightly below the lugs' surface.

Here we are - we still get complaints about the end-links, and any number of other things, many of which, we've actually put a fair bit of thought into. It's clear that no matter what decisions we make, someone will disagree with them, and wish we did it some other way (yellow on the bezel insert, female end-links, sword hands instead of snowflakes - the list is as long as my...well, it's long).

I avoid reading YouTube review comments, because I know what they'll say: "for the price, it really ought to have...(Swiss movement, expansion clasp, ceramic bezel, "better" bracelet...)."

In fact, I don't even watch the YT reviews any more, or read the printed reviews. Unless someone's been in the business of producing and selling watches, and been able to turn a profit doing it, they're not qualified to judge what I'm doing here, what we deliver, or what we charge for it.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I'm not angry at anyone for expressing theirs. The feedback on what we've sold has been overwhelmingly positive. We're working very hard to strike the right balance, and make as many people as possible as happy as possible, within reason. I trust people to understand that I can't snap my fingers and change things on a whim, based on one complaint, or one hundred complaints. I've sold about 10,000 watches. 100 complaints is 1%. I've made a decision to focus on the other 99%.

Sorry if I sound angry, defensive, or argumentative. I'm not. I've spent the last 3-4 days dealing with a few people trying to rip me off, including one who was trying to leverage his military service. As a veteran myself, currently neck-deep in working on a model which will benefit veterans' organizations, I take that sort of thing VERY seriously, so I'm currently in a "I ain't got time to bleed" sort of mindset.

And with that, I need to get back to work.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Geesh that’s a lot of “bracelet” talk. First thing I do with any watch (except one) that comes on a bracelet is remove it and put on a nice comfortable strap! And even the one I consider my “dress” watch that has a bracelet, that bracelet may be on borrowed time since I can easily see my Azores and Antilles on suede as “dress” watches! …although the former is nowhere near a tool watch and would likely be beat to $#@& in short order.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16282204


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This military swag-scammer today really triggered my inner Ranger...

The email I received was structurally no different than the hundreds of others I've received from other wannabe influencers and scammers: "Send me free watch, I make you good fortune." But the twist here was, "I in military. I test your watch for military goodness. Give you feedback. You maybe get DOD contract. DOD contract good fortune."


























Bud, you knocked on the wrong door.










Let me translate that garbage into civilian - he's a desk-jockey posing as a warrior, hoping to score some free swag, instead of just getting an honest side-hustle as a bartender, bouncer, or DJ, the way any self-respecting enlisted soldier would.

I say that because every enlisted soldier I knew with a side-hustle was a bartender, a bouncer, or a DJ. That's honest work. People need drinks, need music, and once in a while, someone needs to get tossed out of a bar. At various times, I've been all those people.

In my past life, I did a lot of finance work with military contractors. I have some knowledge of the process for securing military contracts. My business doesn't qualify, and if it did, I'd know it, and I'd know how to go about bidding on government work.

I'm people who know people who used to kill people, and some who still do. I was never "high-speed", but I knew guys who were.

I also know people who know people who know how the contracts are awarded, and by whom. This guy ain't part of that club. In no way, shape, or form is this communications / exchange (read: "cross-service liaison") officer in any position to help my business do anything, much less get awarded a contract by the DOD or MOD.

He's a pogue. A poseur. An empty uniform. His "company" is just him, no one else. Not even a dedicated email domain or one-page website. He sent his message to us on "company time" (read: the US Army's time), using company stationary (his military email address). Any military service members "on staff" do NOT report to him, except maybe one sad-sack corporal who drew the short straw.

Where's @dmjonez ? Is there a military pilot wearing a flight suit anywhere in the world who would admit to knowing this guy, if they saw this email? I mean US and UK pilots, not some bush-league third-world ham-and-eggers.

I told my assistant to send him a message which would let him know he knocked on the wrong door, and that he should do an about-face, and make a hasty retreat...










Still, and as I said, since I'm working on the design for the tribute to Sergeant Mack watch, I couldn't just let it go. I looked the guy up on LinkedIn, and nearly died laughing at his profile...










Bud, you owe me a new laptop. I spit chai latte all over mine, when I saw your pic.

I erased the assault rifle he's holding in his pic, to comply with forum rules. I don't even know where to start here, but here goes...

First off - shave. That stache isn't within US Army grooming standards, and it makes you look like one of the Village People.

Second - headgear. You're outside. Put it on.

Third - for the love of Christ, on what planet is it a good idea for a "warrior" to make his social media profile pic one in which he's in uniform, and holding a weapon? I'm sorry, but that's the OPPOSITE of what a real warrior would do.

That is some first-class chairborne ranger, wannabe warrior BS.

During my time in service, I learned a good rule of thumb - the shinier the boots, the more ironed the uniform, the more worthless the warrior. The most deadly guys you'll ever meet are the ones you wouldn't even know are (or were) in the military, not the ones parading around with ribbons from their tits to their toes, and certainly not the ones posing for selfies at the range.

As. If.

Put it down, Mark, and walk away, before you hurt yourself, or God forbid, a real warrior. Range master already walking over here, shaking his head.

Read down the guy's bio on LinkedIn - an entire career of 1 and 2-year stints spent in schools and air-conditioned offices, without a single deployment anywhere near combat. But I did see one post that jumped out at me. He was a communications officer at 1st Special Forces Group - the same SF group I had orders to go to when I completed my interrogator training.

I wanted to go there, specifically, and chose to learn Chinese Mandarin in part, because I knew guys from there, from my time in both the Rangers and at DLI, and wanted to serve alongside the best in the biz. I had to make a special call and plead with the Sergeant Major there to have my orders re-cut. I considered it an honor just to serve in a support role with SF.

But whereas I would have been supporting actual operations, and possibly deployed into combat, this guy was basically a PR hack. A press liaison and internal comms coordinator.

His current billet appears to be cooling his heels in England, pretending to do something that advances US-English military interests, but meanwhile, my strong hunch is he can come-and-go as he pleases, since the English wouldn't give him anything important to do for them, and his front-line supervisor in the US is probably some equally worthless pencil-pusher sitting miles away in the Pentagon, with a five-hour time zone difference. They probably catch up via weekly zoom meetings.

I did note he's also from PA, apparently, and like me, a Penn State alumnus, with his bachelor's degree in communications. Go lions.

Prior to his pretending to be a warrior, it appears he was an intern with the PA State Police, as well as an "investigation intern" with some local fire brigade, and a congressional volunteer. And yet, despite having apparently worked for an elected official, he apparently couldn't impress anyone enough to get himself a recommendation to get his commission at West Point, which tells you all you need to know about his pre-military escapades.

Not even ROTC. I knew ROTC officers, guys who got their commissions while attending college. They were some of my favorite officers. Nope. This guy went through OCS. Nothing "wrong" with that. I didn't know I wanted to join the Army until after I finished college, and planned to apply for OCS. In fact, my favorite CO in the Rangers was a former enlisted soldier who went to OCS. But for a guy with a long list of "Chairborne Ranger" positions on his profile, it doesn't scream "born to lead". More like, "just looking to stay out of combat until I can collect a pension".

I'd spent the morning thinking about my friend, Mack, killed in Iraq, leaving behind an orphaned daughter, and many a grieving comrade, myself among them. He volunteered to go into combat, well past the point he didn't need to be there. He was already a combat veteran, nearing retirement. Then he was blown up by an IED. I wish I could have been there for him.

I couldn't have it...










Yes. I was a bit fired up.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> This military swag-scammer today really triggered my inner Ranger...
> 
> The email I received was structurally no different than the hundreds of others I've received from other wannabe influencers and scammers: "Send me free watch, I make you good fortune." But the twist here was, "I in military. I test your watch for military goodness. Give you feedback. You maybe get DOD contract. DOD contract good fortune."
> 
> ...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Ooh-rah!


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Soooooo, Mark‘s not getting a watch? 😂😂😂😂😂👍👍👍👍👍


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Ooh-rah!


Can you even?

Because I can't even.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Soooooo, Mark‘s not getting a watch? 😂😂😂😂😂👍👍👍👍👍


Somewhere, sometime recently, I got the idea that I should pretend I would send someone free swag, but instead of a watch, I should ship them some dog$hlt. 

But tell them that while I'm willing to give them the watch, they would need to pay for shipping. Just pay shipping, and I'll send you a free watch.

And if they're outside the US, mark the customs form for the full amount of the watch. Hope they get whacked with the full customs duties, and where applicable, VAT or local import taxes. 

Imagine the excitement of receiving that package, turning to surprise when the box is opened, revealing the maggot-infested dog turd therein. 

Imagine them trying to argue with their customs officials, trying to explain their scam in such a way that it makes sense someone in the US would box up and ship them a turd.

Honestly, I just don't feel like spending the time on the emails.

Or the time scooping up dog$hlt.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

For the record, I’m here. That guy is a total poser. You nailed it. I have nothing else constructive to add. I might throw some more dog s*** in the box though, if you forwarded it to me first.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seriously, the guy is a communications officer, with a degree in communications, and his email isn't even well-written.

I can't imagine going through life being that much of an oxygen-thief.

Earlier this year, a guy tried to convince me I should listen to his advice regarding my business, because he had an MBA from an Ivy-league university. I told him he should have saved his money, because I barely graduated with a bachelor's degree in liberal arts from a state school, and I clearly knew more about running a business than he did.

He was in the process of starting his own brand. Talked a big game. Liked to throw some huge numbers around. Never got off the launch pad with it. Disappeared into the ether, with the rest of the big-talkers.

Goddam, I freaking love being me. It should be illegal to have this much fun.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Chai… 

I drink chai, and I’m soft as kittens.



Was the lifeguard’s name… Mark?


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

PS. Here’s a photo of my US govt approved pilot watch, circa 1980. Don’t think they used any desk jockeys to pick it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> PS. Here’s a photo of my US govt approved pilot watch, circa 1980. Don’t think they used any desk jockeys to pick it.
> View attachment 16282601


What, no date?

How could you fly a plane without knowing the date?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> What, no date?
> 
> How could you fly a plane without knowing the date?


I frequently didn’t know what month it was…


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

So three Jones boys, none wearing issue watches:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I frequently didn’t know what month it was…


OMG. I remember months like that. 

Well, I don't remember them, really. I just remember that those were the best months of all.

Ain't no party like a not-even-hungover-'cuz-I'm-still-drunk-but-still-doing-PT party.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> OMG. I remember months like that.
> 
> Well, I don't remember them, really. I just remember that those were the best months of all.
> 
> Ain't no party like a not-even-hungover-'cuz-I'm-still-drunk-but-still-doing-PT party.


That’s why pilots use Zulu time. When you’re given a “time over target“ or “time on station“ it narrowed it down to sometime later today….


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> That’s why pilots use Zulu time. When you’re given a “time over target“ or “time on station“ it narrowed it down to sometime later today….


I didn't understand any of that, so I'll just say "okay".

Watchmaker Dan sometimes talks to me in "military time", like, "I'll be home around fifteen-hundred". It's been so long since I got out, I now need to stop and subtract 12 hours for it to make sense.

Oh, you mean "three o'clock". Just say that. I'm too old for this. And even when I wasn't, I was never really all that into it.

You know how some recovering addicts are? Like, they don't just stop using, they go to the other extreme. That's how I am when it comes to NOT being in the military any more. 

Wake up at 5am? To do what? Exercise? 

GTFOH. It ain't happening. I don't even answer my phone before 10am.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Wake up at 5am? To do what? Exercise?


Usually to take one (or more) of these out…


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> I didn't understand any of that, so I'll just say "okay".
> 
> Watchmaker Dan sometimes talks to me in "military time", like, "I'll be home around fifteen-hundred". It's been so long since I got out, I now need to stop and subtract 12 hours for it to make sense.
> 
> ...


Wait…aren’t you releasing a 0000, 0400, 0800 dialed watch soon?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I didn't understand any of that, so I'll just say "okay".
> 
> Watchmaker Dan sometimes talks to me in "military time", like, "I'll be home around fifteen-hundred". It's been so long since I got out, I now need to stop and subtract 12 hours for it to make sense.
> 
> ...


Sadly, after 41 years, I’m still at it. And it’s hysterical watching four pilots try and compute what time we’re getting up to go eat dinner (yes, you read that right, after being awake all night and then getting a couple hours of sleep after landing). Home time, local time, Zulu time…


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Wait…aren’t you releasing a 0000, 0400, 0800 dialed watch soon?


Sort of not exactly.

More details to follow.

As we said in the Army, "Hurry up and wait."


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Sort of not exactly.
> 
> More details to follow.
> 
> As we said in the Army, "Hurry up and wait."


Cagey lad.

We say that in refinery maintenance quite often. Probably was absorbed from the boys that traded one brain bucket for another.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Sadly, after 41 years, I’m still at it. And it’s hysterical watching four pilots try and compute what time we’re getting up to go eat dinner (yes, you read that right, after being awake all night and then getting a couple hours of sleep after landing). Home time, local time, Zulu time…


Having gone to Hong Kong four times, I can relate. 

Flying ~24 hours to arrive somewhere ~36 hours later doesn't just mess with your sleep, it messes with your appetite. 

Thankfully, I know a place in HK that serves western breakfast 24/7.

Or at least, it seems I did. Until Covid.









Flying Pan, Hong Kong's beloved 24-hour diner, closes after 17 years in business | Coconuts


The Flying Pan, a beloved breakfast spot that was a go-to for Hong Kong's nightlife crowd, has closed its doors after 17 years.




coconuts.co





Goddamitall.

I am not happy right now.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Having gone to Hong Kong four times, I can relate.
> 
> Flying ~24 hours to arrive somewhere ~36 hours later doesn't just mess with your sleep, it messes with your appetite.
> 
> ...


Covid has killed a lot of great places. My favorite pilot-place in Paris shuttered for 8 months but came back. My favorite place in Frankfurt told me that one more closure will kill them for good. My favorite place of all, in Rome, managed to re-open. When I finally got back there, the owner hugged me for 2 minutes. All these people are my extended family. Home away from home...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It appears we're now sold out of the Santa Cruz in the USA.

The last one left in the world appears to be this one, at Serious -
https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-santa-cruz-date


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Covid has killed a lot of great places. My favorite pilot-place in Paris shuttered for 8 months but came back. My favorite place in Frankfurt told me that one more closure will kill them for good. My favorite place of all, in Rome, managed to re-open. When I finally got back there, the owner hugged me for 2 minutes. All these people are my extended family. Home away from home...


I get it. 

The Flying Pan was one of two places Sujain (Melbourne Watch Co), Chip (Aevig) and I considered "our place". 

Whenever we met up in HK, no matter where else we went, together or separately, we had a standing date for breakfast together at the Flying Pan, and happy hour drinks at a sports pub that started out as "The Dog Haus", but then became "The Stadium".

Pic of the three of us at the Flying Pan, from 2018, the last time we were all there together.










If there comes a day when I sift through the ashes, searching for what we lost in the fire, it'll be the memories of good times, spent with good people, good friends, in places which no longer exist.

Goddam this world for taking anything good and grinding it to dust.


----------



## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

docvail said:


> "I'll be home around fifteen-hundred". It's been so long since I got out, I now need to stop and subtract 12 hours for it to make sense.


One trick is to subtract two from the second digit.
1500 … 5 - 2 = 3pm
1900 … 9 - 2 = 7pm

Imagine hour 20 as 10 and subtract 2. You have 8. Hour 23 as 13 and subtract 2. You’re left with 11.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> One trick is to subtract two from the second digit.
> 1500 … 5 - 2 = 3pm
> 1900 … 9 - 2 = 7pm
> 
> Imagine hour 20 as 10 and subtract 2. You have 8. Hour 23 as 13 and subtract 2. You’re left with 11.


Seems easier to subtract 12 (00). I get to the same place, but quicker.

1300-1200 = 1pm
1500-1200 = 3pm
2000-1200 = 8pm


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




----------



## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

I chase a toddler around the house most of the day in addition to sitting on a couch. I’d be happy to field-test* the new batch for you, Doc.






*you won’t get them back


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

While my Oris gently weeps…


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some people really don't know when they're beat, and should give up...

Before anyone thinks I've been too harsh with this guy, understand - while yesterday's message came through on Sunday (technically, "the weekend", so not necessarily "business hours"), the time-stamp on his message today was 4:05 am my time. That's 9:05am in the UK. That IS business hours, even for the US government, even for a guy with no apparent responsibility. 

He sent his message using his military email address, during business hours. How much do you want to bet he was sitting in a government office, in a government building, on a military base, using a government-owned laptop?

That's our tax dollars at work (well, not really "work"). It's nothing but a big old boondoggle. Yet another example of a decades-long trend of increasing bloat among the senior military ranks.

Didn't know about that, did you? It's a phenomenon playing out in the US military. Way too many chiefs, not nearly enough Indians. They can't find a good use for all the officers they've commissioned, who stubbornly refuse to get killed in combat or leave the service for the civilian sector.





__





Today's Military: The Most Top-Heavy Force in U.S. History


After Thanksgiving, waistlines aren't the only things that are bloated--the Pentagon's top ranks are fattening at an alarming rate.




www.pogo.org













Are There Too Many General Officers for Today’s Military?


There are approximately 900 Active-duty general/flag officers (GO/FOs) today of 1.3 million troops. This is a ratio of 1 GO/FO for every 1,400 troops. During World War II, an admittedly different era,



ndupress.ndu.edu





During WWII, there was one General / Admiral for 6,000 troops. Today, it's 1 for every 1,400. 

This guy clearly doesn't have enough on his plate to keep him busy. He's got scads of time on his hands, to send out silly spam messages to brands he's probably looking up during - wait for it - business hours (using his government laptop, while sitting in a government office...).


















"I hope to get a response"?

Really?

Okay. I'm your Huckleberry...


















I could have gone on. We're third degree contacts on LinkedIn, which means someone I know and someone he knows know each other. I could and should have suggested we figure out who those people are, and asked for some intros to be made all around.

I should have called him out for doing this on company time, using company assets, and pointed out he's wasting my tax dollars.

I should have asked if he's filed his business taxes. It doesn't matter if the business hasn't made any money, and doesn't owe anything. You still need to file, every year. And if the business has had a loss, as he claims, it's deductible against his other ordinary income.

"But I just started my business. I haven't filed yet..."

That's what it sounds like, from the part where he says he's "submitted" an LLC. Which means, his business doesn't technically exist yet. And yet, despite it being non-existent, it (he) has invested in "lab equipment", and had success working with "several" microbrands already? There's no way in hell this guy's had a meaningful impact on anyone's business, yet his own business doesn't even have a basic landing page or email domain.

I call BS. It's a total scam. His initial message was generic and poorly worded copy-pasta, entirely made up of lies. Instead of realizing his mistake, he doubled down. Because that's the first thing liars always do. They lie again. I can't believe he had the balls to ask for my "mentorship". 

The punch-line here is the last email, apparently sent from a different device, or from off-base, or both, given the "Non-DoD Source" addition to the header, which apparently happens when military email servers detect a message sent from outside their firewall.

I can't blame him. If I was double-dipping by using my government office and laptop to work a side-hustle, and someone sent me the message I'd just sent him, I'd leave the office and send my final message from a different device, too.










Some poor soul is going to end up sleeping with that waste of skin. Let's all hope nothing issues from their union. This guy is the poster-child for the social value of birth control.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

I don’t think I’ve been living in a cave since 1976 (year I joined USAF), or even since I took a bigger interest in watches early this year. I don’t recall ever seeing ”military approved watches”. Now I have seen watches with Federal stock numbers that I could have “issued” to me, assuming I could convince an approving official I actually needed one. But I’ve never seen a commercial watch listed as “military approved”, even when the commercial listing uses a Federal stock number in the description, though by default I guess that’s government approval. I have seen “Worn by SPECOPS“ or some such occasionally, but not “approved” by them. If actually government approved they have a Federal stock number. It’s generally illegal for the military to participate in advertising for commercial products and I’m 99.999999999% sure watches wouldn’t be on that list.

As to bloat in the ranks, most folks have no idea how they stack officer upon officer in the “interest of gaining experience” for future promotions. All the while mid and senior NCOs NOT retired on active duty (ROAD) making the mission happen. And then, of course, it’s always the enlisted ranks that take the brunt of any drawdown, never the 0-4 through 0-10 (Major through 4 Star General). Not sure of Naval equivalents.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Always was and always will be, THE very best, numero uno thread on this here WUS space...........

A great big phat Cheerz to all of yooz guyz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaannnnddddd...just like that, something cool happens to brighten my day...

Got an order last night that was suspicious for two reasons. First, the customer's name is somewhat famous (think second generation celebrity). Second, the customer paid by PayPal, but the account was unverified.

Radar - on!

This morning I went to work Googling the shipping address and trying to see if I could find some info I might use to verify the customer's identity, since the shipping address is a house in CA that isn't obviously not where a somewhat famous person would live, nor is it obviously where a somewhat famous person would live.

I located the famous person's website, got in touch with famous person's people by email, and asked them to help me verify famous person actually made the purchase, not some nitwit trying to pretend they're the famous person.

Just got a very nice email from famous person. Apparently, famous person is a legit watch geek, and even does Seiko mods (!). No idea how famous person stumbled on NTH, but it's kinda cool to know famous person is out there, soon to be sporting a new NTH.

I told famous person I'd keep their personal details confidential, and I'm not into name-dropping (it's not John Mayer). We'll see if famous person makes NTH famous on IG. Probably not, but still...one less watch in inventory, and one more customer, which is always a good thing.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Lab4Us said:


> While my Oris gently weeps…
> View attachment 16283764
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, and for good measure…


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I told famous person I'd keep their personal details confidential, and I'm not into name-dropping (it's not John Mayer). We'll see if famous person makes NTH famous on IG. Probably not, but still...one less watch in inventory, and one more customer, which is always a good thing.


It's Elvis isn't it! I just knew it... he was never dead at all! 

And all along I thought he was exclusively a Hamilton Ventura man...

















Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

My watch strap addiction continues, latest is a grey horween, hopefully it will lose some of its sheen and look more vintage with use.
I must stop browsing watchgeko


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Johnboy0103 said:


> My watch strap addiction continues, latest is a grey horween, hopefully it will lose some of its sheen and look more vintage with use.
> I must stop browsing watchgeko
> 
> View attachment 16285550


WatchGecko is the devil. I've probably bought a dozen straps from them over the last few years. 

You should also definitely "not" browse through StrapsCo, House of Straps, or StrapCode. Cumulatively, I've probably given those companies enough money that I could have bought three or four new NTHs instead.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

These are only most of my 22mm. Not all from WG, but they're in there as well!









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> WatchGecko is the devil. I've probably bought a dozen straps from them over the last few years.
> 
> You should also definitely "not" browse through StrapsCo, House of Straps, or StrapCode. Cumulatively, I've probably given those companies enough money that I could have bought three or four new NTHs instead.


Yeah, stop looking at those sites...


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Add Uncle Seiko to that list too


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHowsaboutanAZORES!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh...

Just got an email telling me the accountant who's been doing my personal and business taxes for at least a decade is no longer with the firm.

Cue ominous music...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Ugh...
> 
> Just got an email telling me the accountant who's been doing my personal and business taxes for at least a decade is no longer with the firm.
> 
> Cue ominous music...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Ugh...
> 
> Just got an email telling me the accountant who's been doing my personal and business taxes for at least a decade is no longer with the firm.
> 
> Cue ominous music...


Might be worth the trouble to chase him down.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Might be worth the trouble to chase him down.


Trying to figure that out. 

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Coriolanus said:


> WatchGecko is the devil. I've probably bought a dozen straps from them over the last few years.
> 
> You should also definitely "not" browse through StrapsCo, House of Straps, or StrapCode. Cumulatively, I've probably given those companies enough money that I could have bought three or four new NTHs instead.


And I'm adding Erikas to that list...oh and Red Rock straps... and let's not forget Ted Su does some funky stuff...Doc, I reckon you might be in the wrong business... this strap/bracelet thing is costing me plenty

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

The Strap business is sneaky, hey its just 30 bucks here, 25 bucks there and before you know it you're spending a hundred bucks a months on that stuff


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Johnboy0103 said:


> The Strap business is sneaky, hey its just 30 bucks here, 25 bucks there and before you know it you're spending a hundred bucks a months on that stuff


And of course the easier they make it to change out straps and bracelets...kaaaaching!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> And I'm adding Erikas to that list...oh and Red Rock straps... and let's not forget Ted Su does some funky stuff...Doc, I reckon you might be in the wrong business... this strap/bracelet thing is costing me plenty
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


You know I sell straps too, right?

I'm not saying they're the most comfortable rubber straps you'll ever wear, but...




...multiple people have said they're the most comfortable rubber straps they've ever worn.

Just sayin'...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> You know I sell straps too, right?
> 
> I'm not saying they're the most comfortable rubber straps you'll ever wear, but...
> 
> ...


I'm fairly certain you quoted me somewhere saying just that. Seeing as you PM'd me asking for permission to do so.

So.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

It’s another #NTHursday
Stirrin' slowly 'cross the sky


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

The NTH Blue Odin has been on my wrist all week. I love the way this watch glows like a torch. I gave it a quick charge before going to bed last night, and when I woke up this morning it was still dark outside but I could still see the Odin glowing bright. 

I have this on a blue rubber strap with Omega style deployant clasp. It is super comfy on the wrist and looks great to boot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I finally remembered about this whole NTHursday deal.


----------



## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Anyone tried a shark mesh on a devilray yet?


----------



## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> #NTHursday
> 
> View attachment 16287570
> 
> ...


That sir is awesome.......want one


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Johnboy0103 said:


> That sir is awesome.......want one


lolz - can't have one*. This is an NTH one-off. Two DLC Scorpenes produced, this is the one with-date model in existence. 

But thanks, much appreciated. At one point, not too long ago, I posted it for sale. But then came to my senses and decided to keep it. 

*I mean, sure you could mod one exactly the same, but...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Anyone tried a shark mesh on a devilray yet?


I haven't, but I'm sure we've seen that here.

I wish there was a way to click a link, and see all the images posted to a WUS thread, in chronological order. I feel like there was one posted just within the last 2-3 weeks.

Then again, Google image search is your amigo...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas…

#NTHursday


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

#NTHursday indeed.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

An early Farcical Friday post with dmjonez in mind.


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16287416


No I don’t.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday, you say?

I JUST missed the noon shot today.










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pedro0223 (Aug 11, 2012)

First time caller, long time listener. Told myself I wouldn't post here until I got an NTH. Got an exceptional deal in my opinion on this bad boy new on eBay. The dial is simply fantastic.









Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I haven't, but I'm sure we've seen that here.
> 
> I wish there was a way to click a link, and see all the images posted to a WUS thread, in chronological order. I feel like there was one posted just within the last 2-3 weeks.
> 
> ...


I've done it with the new WG DR





__





Login • Instagram


Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.




www.instagram.com





Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So nice.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I pulled myself out of the office today to run a few loads. It feels great to be back in a truck again and the Nacken looks so much better out in fresh air and sunlight.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHorange


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Forgot to post this the other day
















I've been on a white dial kick lately and I was seriously considering the Seiko spb213. However it seems to be more silver as well as some other nits (price, possible misalignments, etc) to pick.

Then I remembered the good old Santa Cruz. Funny thing is I actually bought the Santa Cruz in the first round of nth preorders along with a black nacken several years ago. The sickness had not fully taken hold so I was trying to limit my amount of watches and kept the black nacken thinking it would be more versatile.

Here I am 5 years later with a Santa Cruz again. Really a great watch and as they say the pics really don't do it justice.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pedro0223 said:


> First time caller, long time listener. Told myself I wouldn't post here until I got an NTH. Got an exceptional deal in my opinion on this bad boy new on eBay. The dial is simply fantastic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welcome to the fam.

Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

…and for good measure, #NTHighNoon!


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## Towr (Feb 16, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> …and for good measure, #NTHighNoon!
> View attachment 16289975


Getting some serious Doxa vibes! I think I prefer your NTH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Towr said:


> Getting some serious Doxa vibes! I think I prefer your NTH
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you’ll definitely prefer the price and accuracy!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone looking for a good deal on an NTH?










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Lol, what model is it?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Anyone looking for a good deal on an NTH?
> 
> View attachment 16290184
> 
> ...


For $100, I’ll take literally any NTH.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Anyone looking for a good deal on an NTH?
> 
> View attachment 16290184
> 
> ...


If it's a blue Nacken then I am in

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Lol, what model is it?


No idea. Apparently the guy's been trolling us on IG for a week or two, according to my marketing team.

Not convinced he even has one.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Nah, about tree fiddy.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> For $100, I’ll take literally any NTH.


100% this. I've spent more than $100 on straps from NTH!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Brandon? IS THIS THE GUY? I wondered who everyone was cheering...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Nah, about tree fiddy.


Legit LOL.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Brandon? IS THIS THE GUY? I wondered who everyone was cheering...


Also legit LOL.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yep. He's been trolling for a while...


















Tonight, I started trolling him back...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I think Brandon needs a hug.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

I’m more interested Mr Eric and his consistent use of heart eyes.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Ratt, 1884, Wanted Man, Album _Out of the Cellar
…_
Well, gun fighter, you think twice
Are you fast, you heed my advice
I drink whiskey, you say goodnight
I'll put an end, to this here fight you're a
Human target, In my eyes
I've got you, well in my sights
And by the rope, you will hang
It's your neck, from this Ratt gang
It's really what you wanna be
A SWIFTSURE man (a SWIFTSURE man)
'Cause I'm a, a SWIFTSURE man
'Cause I'm a, a SWIFTSURE, yes I am
'Cause I'm a, a SWIFTSURE man


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## MarkBishop (Feb 7, 2017)

Went to our local watch meetup last night and saw an NTH DevilRay. It was amazing. The cliche was absolutely true: It looks great in pictures, but "It looks even better in person". That prompted me to give a fresh look at the NTH lineup, and I stumbled across the Upholder and Todaro... love 'em!


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Love my NTH watches, but they really screwed up my primary watch box. Some of my other most-liked watches have already been cast off to the secondary watch box and I've still got to make room for that Todaro once it releases. Pretty sure I'm going to have to add a third box if I don't grow some balls and start selling off a few watches. First world problems...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> Love my NTH watches, but they really screwed up my primary watch box. Some of my other most-liked watches have already been cast off to the secondary watch box and I've still got to make room for that Todaro once it releases. Pretty sure I'm going to have to add a third box if I don't grow some balls and start selling off a few watches. First world problems...
> View attachment 16294893


You should do one of those "what do I keep, what do I sell?" threads. 

Seems to me like the Victorinox and Alpina white dials are similar enough to lose one of them. Do you still wear skeleton dials? You could probably ditch that Hamilton if not.

I think I'd keep the Bulova, because it's cool, and "grab and go quartz" seems to be a thing people like. I'd probably also keep the two CW's, because GMT, and "basic black tool watch". 

I'd probably also sell the Hamilton pilot, too, because I personally don't like day-dates.

There's three watches you can sell, right there. 

You're welcome.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> You should do one of those "what do I keep, what do I sell?" threads.
> 
> Seems to me like the Victorinox and Alpina white dials are similar enough to lose one of them. Do you still wear skeleton dials? You could probably ditch that Hamilton if not.
> 
> ...


Wow, you're playing nice. 

On my end, I'd ditch:
Top row, left to right:
Victorinox, Hamilton, Alpina, Hamilton. Maybe keep the Hamilton open heart as a dressier piece. 
Bottom row:
NTH Barracuda Brown, NTH Nacken (sacrelige! blasphemy!)

But that's just me. Probably, also the Bulova and NTH Antilles would go, too, if this were my collection. Which would leave me with 4 watches, and still 50% NTH.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> You should do one of those "what do I keep, what do I sell?" threads.
> 
> Seems to me like the Victorinox and Alpina white dials are similar enough to lose one of them. Do you still wear skeleton dials? You could probably ditch that Hamilton if not.
> 
> ...


I'm definitely keeping the orange Bulova, but I have the same watch in blue in my other box that will get the axe. The Victorinox should be next. It was a daily driver for years but just doesn't see the wear these days. I have another Hamilton not pictured that is getting sold off. 

As for the Hamilton pilot you mentioned, it'll probably go eventually. I love the colorway but I'm not too keen on day dates either. I would like to find something with that same blue though.


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Wow, you're playing nice.
> 
> On my end, I'd ditch:
> Top row, left to right:
> ...


That Nacken is getting buried with me. 😆


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

CuriousBob said:


> That Nacken is getting buried with me. 😆


Totally understand. Personal taste. There are those who probably shake their heads at a collection with 4 Scorpene and no other NTH models...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Totally understand. Personal taste. There are those who probably shake their heads at a collection with 4 Scorpene and no other NTH models...


I shake my head at your Scorpene collection because they're not mine. I'm all for it!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Polar-izing discussion!









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was about to post a question, asking if anyone here was in the path of those tornadoes that ripped through the mid-west over the weekend, but I suppose if you were, you wouldn't be online right now.

I just hope everyone is safe. Looks like the mid-west got turned into a giant etch-a-sketch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Totally understand. Personal taste. There are those who probably shake their heads at a collection with 4 Scorpene and no other NTH models...


Two Scorpènes is my personal limit.

Also two Barracudas, and two Näckens, and two Odins, and two DevilRays.

Because three of any would be excessive, IMO.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

The Beatles, 1969, _Abbey Road
She Came in Through the Bathroom Window_

Didn't anybody tell her?
Didn't anybody see?
Thresher's on my wrist this Monday,
Tuesday's NTH? Could be!
Oh yeah


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NT(uesday)H



















Love the way different light plays on the dial.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

_A Beautiful Morning_, Rascals, 1968

It's a SWIFTYSURE morning, ah
I think I'll go outside for a while
And just smile
Just take in some clean fresh air, boy
No sense in staying inside
If the weather's fine and you've got the time
It's your chance to wake up and put on another NTH!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh. My email inbox has been catnip for crazy recently.

I spent two weeks with a guy reading me the riot act because he forgot to use a coupon code at checkout, and wanted us to do a partial refund the day after the order was shipped, which we don't have any way to do within our system, not that I'd necessarily agree to do it anyway, because that's not how coupon codes work. You can't walk into a pizza place the day after you ordered a pie, and tell them to give you two bucks out of the register, because you had this $2 coupon you forgot at home.

There's more to the story. Too much to get into. Suffice to say, we did our best to offer good support, despite not being able to comply with his original demand.

After two weeks of him sending me increasingly long, increasingly insane, and increasingly insulting messages (all of which got a quick and courteous same-day response), and doing a return for refund because he refused to pay full price (costing himself >2/3 of what the coupon would have saved him)...he buys another watch. I was -this- close to canceling and refunding the order. I'm just waiting for his "this watch is defective. I want to send it back for a full refund" email, a week after he starts wearing it.

Today I've got another guy sending us an email with the same questions he sent us back in August, the reply to which he must have seen, but apparently didn't read thoroughly, because his message today said something that was the exact opposite of what our earlier response said. There's more than just questions though. There's some other side-bar stuff in both messages that's just a bit too much and too crazy to get into. All the whistles and bells on my loony-alert early warning system are going off.

He's not the first. This happens about 2-3 times per year, with someone sending the exact. same. message they sent us months earlier. I don't get it. When I see it, I'll go back to find the earlier exchanges in our message records, and point it out: "as we told you in our replies to your messages on April 3rd, August 19th, and October 5th..."

Where are we in the lunar cycle? Is Mars passing through Orion's belt, or is there any other astrological phenomenon happening, to drive people to the other side of bat$hlt crazy?

Did they add something to the water recently?


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Well not to defend loonies, or possibly scammers, I have been know to forget things from yesterday, last week, and especially months ago. I don’t have an eidetic or photographic memory and I’m getting older so sometimes I’m just happy I know where my keys are! That, of course, refers to the guy who forgot what was in an email four months ago. I also sometimes get enamored with a product, ask some questions, get answers, then just lose interest…only to decide a long time later I’m interested again.

Now for Mr. day late and dollar (or a few) short, he’s on his own. That whole deal and then buying another watch from you sounds off. Not sure to what end, but sounds off. Not sure how you send your watches (mine all came from Watchgauge and WatchGecko), but adult signature required would seems apropo.

Hope your week gets better!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Well not to defend loonies, or possibly scammers, I have been know to forget things from yesterday, last week, and especially months ago. I don’t have an eidetic or photographic memory and I’m getting older so sometimes I’m just happy I know where my keys are! That, of course, refers to the guy who forgot what was in an email four months ago. I also sometimes get enamored with a product, ask some questions, get answers, then just lose interest…only to decide a long time later I’m interested again.
> 
> Now for Mr. day late and dollar (or a few) short, he’s on his own. That whole deal and then buying another watch from you sounds off. Not sure to what end, but sounds off. Not sure how you send your watches (mine all came from Watchgauge and WatchGecko), but adult signature required would seems apropo.
> 
> Hope your week gets better!


We all get forgetful. If someone just forgot, okay, no problem.

Add in the crazy, and I'm less inclined to chalk it up to simple forgetfulness.

There's a certain type of customer we encounter occasionally, the one who seems incapable of understanding some "basics" of this situation, i.e.:

1. It's a small business. This isn't Amazon. Our time and other resources are finite. So is our (well, my) patience for other people's BS.

2. We've sold thousands of watches to customers all over the world. No one customer is orders of magnitude more important than any other customer, and shouldn't demand to be treated as such. Okay, fine, if you've made multiple purchases over the years, and especially if I know your name because you hang out here or I know you from Facebook, I'm likely to make sure you get "special attention", but just having purchased 2 or 3 times doesn't entitle anyone to make unreasonable demands of my business. We'll strive to deliver top-notch support to someone who's only purchased once, and someone who's purchased a half dozen times. Both are equally deserving, in my view.

3. Our priority is delivering outstanding support to people who are actually customers, defined as someone who's actually made a purchase. I don't even care if they bought the watch used, so long as they've actually purchased one of our watches, they deserve the best support we can deliver (within reason). Someone who has yet to buy anything isn't, by definition, a "customer", and thus has no right to make unreasonable demands on our time, which really ought to be focused on people who need support stemming from a previous purchase. The people who put their faith in my business when they made a purchase deserve our attention more than some loon who just popped up to play stump-the-chump.

4. The reputation of my business has been more or less solidified by this point, and I trust our many happy customers to speak up in its defense when appropriate. Thus, I won't be cowed into submitting to anyone's unreasonable demands, or live in fear that someone might go online to tell tall tales about the shoddy product or shoddy service.

5. If you abuse any member of my team, that's cause for ejection (refusal of service, and cutting off communications). If I wouldn't allow you to abuse one of my employees, why would I allow you to abuse me? I wouldn't. This is a business. We're engaging in what ought to be a simple transaction. You give me money. I give you watch. If watch breaks, we fix. If you ask question, we answer. You must understand the answers don't change when you ask repeatedly, more forcefully, or threaten to make a stink online. Go on and make your stink, if you must. See what it changes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just to clarify the above...

If you email us with a simple question, even if it's one answered by our FAQs, then you later forget, or never saw our response, and email us the same question again, okay, fine, I understand, and no problem. We'll quickly and courteously respond with an answer to your question, and it's not likely we'll point out that you already sent us the same question in a previous message, or that your question is covered by our FAQs.

We're not dlcks.

If you email us to say your watch is running 5 minutes fast per day, and you want to send it in for us to repair it, but we reply that it's most likely magnetized, and you should try demagnetizing it first, then, that's the answer - have it demagnetized first. Don't email us the same message two months later, and then again three months later, six months later, etc. That's insane. Just have the damned thing demagnetized, and let us know if that doesn't sort it out. In which case, we'll have you send it in for us to have a closer look, no problem, and without delay.

If you try to pull that $hlt, you will get my attention, and I will find your previous messages, and point out to you that the answers to your questions aren't subject to change simply because you've chosen to ignore them, in favor of repeating the same demands, in defiance of all reason.

Same with bracelet screws coming loose. Say it with me now - thread locker. Put it on the threads of every screw you take out during the process of sizing it. We're not having you send the watch back to us because you refuse to accept the physics of how metal screws work (hint: they're not self-tapping, and thus, you need to use some thread locker on them).

There are people in the world who simply refuse to accept the answers provided by the people they are asking to provide them. And then there are others who don't seem to understand the difference between a customer, and someone who might someday become a customer, but who is, as yet, not a customer. 

Or, for whatever reason, they don't seem to grasp the concept of a "small business" with "finite resources", even in this day and age when you will literally - not figuratively - suffocate and die if you hold your breath while trying to find support which is actually helpful from any large ecommerce company (read: "the likes of Amazon"), with practically infinite resources.

I can 100% guarantee that the person who starts their contact form submission with a complaint about how difficult it was to find the contact form in the first place is about to ask questions already answered by our FAQ's. 

Ask me where the link to the contact form is. Go on. Ask. 










It's at the bottom of the FAQ's. 

And yet - 99% of the people who submit that contact form are asking us a question already answered by the FAQ's they completely ignored in their quest to find the contact page. 

It's not like we don't try to make the information people want available. We do. We also try to make sure people know it's available, and where to find it. We practically beg them to see it before they contact us...



















It's cool. We still answer their questions. We rarely if ever point out that the answer is in the FAQ's. 

But it's a little galling to have someone lecture me on how hard it was to find the contact form, then proceed to ask us a half dozen questions already answered by our FAQ's, questions we've been asked dozens of times, which is why they're in the FAQ's, and why the link to the contact form is buried at the bottom of that page on our site.

It's further galling to explain all of the above to someone, only to have them reject it, all of it, as if none of it was said nor was it of any relevance, and persist in lecturing me because they were put out over having to spend 20 seconds looking for the contact page, rather than spending 20 seconds skimming the FAQs looking for the answer which was right there all along.

Now think about this - all of you who've bought an NTH - that's YOUR time they're stealing, not just mine. Every minute I have to spend dealing with some wing-nut making unreasonable demands on my time is a minute I can't spend delivering support to a customer who actually needs it. It's a minute I can't spend working on a new design you might really want me to finish already. 

We're doing our best to support the people who've made a purchase (even used). If any of our existing customers are willing to sacrifice the quality of support we deliver, so that I can spend more time dealing with people who have yet to make a purchase, and you want to explain why, speak up now. I'm all ears for this explanation...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I demand that you hand deliver my Bronze Scorpene day-date! 

I would also like to begin a preemptive warranty claim because my watch is tarnished.

Also, I put it down for 6 days and it now needs a battery replacement. Please send a prepaid shipping label to 59.8590° N, 123.2986° W.

Plus, I deserve a 98% discount because I stood next to a lifeguard at the WEM wave pool, and I have 3 followers on Eventuagram.


That is all.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I demand that you hand deliver my Bronze Scorpene day-date!
> 
> I would also like to begin a preemptive warranty claim because my watch is tarnished.
> 
> ...


You're joking, but we've gotten support requests from people who thought the battery in their watch died.

I ain't mad at nobody here. I mean it. I love all you guys (you know, in a fraternal sort of way). Sometimes I just reach a point of exasperation with some of the folks who find their way to my business, and refuse to accept or utilize any semblance of reason or rationality.

That guy who forgot to use a coupon code? You won't believe this, but every word is true...

First off - before we ship any order placed through our website, we check the customer support inbox, to make sure there's no message there, about using the wrong address, or the customer changed his mind, or - wait for it - forgot to use a coupon code. There was no such message, so the order shipped, a whopping - wait for it - SIX HOURS after the order was placed.

Six. Hours. In the busiest time of the year for every ecommerce business and courier, in the midst of a worldwide logjam in shipping logistics. We shipped the order six hours after we got it.

The next day - email from the guy - "I screwed up. Forgot to use my coupon code. Can you apply it on the back end?"

Our same-day (!) response - sorry, no, we can't. Literally, we can't. As in, there's no way for us to edit an order after it's been shipped and archived in our system. The best we can do is let you return the order for a refund, at which point, you can re-do the order.

Okay, that's kind of silly, because the customer would have to pay return shipping, and the refund would be net of their original shipping cost, and the payments processing fees, but still, they'd save $20-ish after it was all said and done, which is better than nothing.

Riddle me this - how many businesses on the planet would even say all that, rather than just saying, "sorry, no, you're SOL"? Answer - very few, if any.

We tried to help. It wasn't good enough. Five days later, the guy says he wants to return the watch. No problem, we send him return instructions.

Four days later, having yet to return the watch, he's emailing us again, asking about our restocking fees, which only come into play if we get back something that isn't in as-delivered condition. Those sorts of questions get referred up to me. When I saw the message, the name rang a bell. For good reason.

It seems that the day before he emailed us to say he wanted to return the watch, we drop-shipped the exact same watch to him, on behalf of one of our retailers. He didn't know we knew it, but we knew he got the same watch from us twice, before contacting us about returning the first one.

So...you see where this is going. Asking about our restocking fees, which only apply to worn items, which we shouldn't be getting back, raises some other questions for us, in light of the fact we've now shipped the same watch to the same guy, twice, and the first one had been delivered long enough ago that he might have unwrapped it, prompting him to ask about our restocking fees.

But, no problem (still), at least for us. I explained the returns policy, to include the restocking fee, but also noted that since we shipped him two of the same watch, the second of which had yet to be delivered, he could just slap a return label on that second watch the moment it arrived, and by doing so, not fear any restocking fees.

It took me a little extra time to check tracking on the second order. No big deal. I even told him he could keep the UV torch we included with the first order, and not return it, as a token of my appreciation for his understanding of the situation.

Simple, right? Every message he sent us received a same-day response, which was courteous, and helpful. I even offered a little gift to try to smooth things over. Not good enough.

I have no idea why, but I'm not a head shrink. What followed was a two-week long ordeal of back-and-forth emails, each message we received including some thinly-veiled accusation or insult, the clear implication being that we did something wrong by not agreeing to his back-end-application-of-the-unused-coupon request, that we weren't delivering good support, and that in fact we were accusing him of something, which we never did, even remotely.

Every combative message - got a quick and courteous reply, the same day we received the message. Every response we sent was thorough, thoughtful, and tried to help. The guy wasn't having any of it.

Friday last week - I get a text from Dan saying we got the watch back (the second one, I'm assuming), in perfect condition, ready to go back into inventory. Then, just minutes later, my phone chirps with an alert about a sale through the website. I look at it - same guy, different watch (used his coupon code this time). Then my phone chirps two more times - back-to-back insane emails from this same guy, telling me all is forgiven, and he's willing to pinky-swear that he has no intentions of returning the watch for any reason...

Uhmmmm...okayyyy...

Dude, if you buy a watch, I assume you want it, and you're not buying it with the intention of returning it, just like I assume you're not buying it with the intention of flipping it six months from now, or whenever. But if you put me on blast for two weeks, then you buy another watch, and you tell me you're not playing games...call me untrusting, or unreasonably suspicious, but...I kinda think you might be playing games.

Oh, I forgot the best part of all this...in his emails, he made sure to mention (I think more than once), that he too is a small business owner, so he understands my plight, despite the fact that in that moment, he was the main driver of said plight. I couldn't help but wonder what sort of business this guy might run, given his apparent detachment from this sphere of reality.

So...I Google his name, and find his business.

First - according to state business filing records, he dissolved the business earlier this year, after setting it up just a year or two ago. Okay, no big deal. The last couple years have been tough for a lot of people. But, technically, if you dissolve your business, then you're not really "in business" any more, right?

And yet...something in the name of the biz jumped out at me. The word "time" was in it.

So...I Google the business. Anyone care to hazard a guess what "business" this guy is (or perhaps, was) in?

If you guessed "he buys and sells watches", you've been hanging out here too long, and I can't shock you any more.

He apparently buys watches and tries to flip them for a profit. Which would go some distance to explain his intransigence about not paying full price for an NTH.

It's a terrible business model, trying to save a few dollars using a coupon code on my site, then turning around and trying to sell the same watch for more than you paid, AND paying a percentage commission to the likes of eBay (15% commission, last I checked) or Chrono24 (6.5%, but with far less web traffic than eBay). But again, I'm not a head shrink, so don't ask me to explain it. Because I can't.

Judging by the watches he has listed, and their prices, neither can he. The average price of the dozen watches he has listed is about $400, and none of them are "hot" models. Just the opposite - if you tried to put together a collection of watches no one wants and wouldn't buy, at any price, you'd be hard-pressed to surpass this guy's efforts.

I've got his Chrono24 page bookmarked. I'm just waiting to see either of the two NTH's he's purchased up for sale. I can't wait to see his asking price, and how long it takes to sell them.

No hard feelings. I hope he sells the NTH's quickly, for top dollar, and comes back to do it all again (the buying and flipping for a profit, not the two weeks of email insanity - hilarity will NOT ensue).


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Or, for whatever reason, they don't seem to grasp the concept of a "small business" with "finite resources", even in this day and age when you will literally - not figuratively - suffocate and die if you hold your breath while trying to find support which is actually helpful from any large ecommerce company (read: "the likes of Amazon"), with practically infinite resources...


I think one of the primary issues is that a lot of folks don’t understand just how small most small business are. They think their initial questions are being addressed by a nameless, faceless customer service rep in some center somewhere They don’t stop to realize the obvious reality that in a tiny company, the owner is often the producer, the salesman, and the customer service rep, and he’s probably going to remember you and your question.

My wife produces a product and sells it online, and I handle all of the actual business side of things, including product shipping and answering incoming questions. 

We probably get 2-3 questions a week. Ill remember if you’ve contacted me before. I’ll probably notice if you’ve ever ordered before, and I’ll more than likely notice if you’ve ordered in weird ways (like if you order every two weeks, or if you only order during sales, etc) and I’ll 100% notice if you try to use a coupon code you’re not supposed to.

Odd or unusual stuff sticks out like a sore thumb at tiny companies. It just does. Add in a dab of crazy and yeah… you’re gonna get pegged.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I think one of the primary issues is that a lot of folks don’t understand just how small most small business are. They think their initial questions are being addressed by a nameless, faceless customer service rep in some center somewhere They don’t stop to realize the obvious reality that in a tiny company, the owner is often the producer, the salesman, and the customer service rep, and he’s probably going to remember you and your question.
> 
> My wife produces a product and sells it online, and I handle all of the actual business side of things, including product shipping and answering incoming questions.
> 
> ...


Exactly. The weird / annoying / over the top / most egregious / most insulting / most outrageous interactions are the ones which get seared into my memory.

Like that Army Major last week. We get a dozen "send me free stuff" pitches a month. You have to work pretty hard to get my attention with one. And trust me when I say, you DON'T want to get my attention that way. Just ask the kid who claimed his business was "supporting the troops", when it clearly wasn't, or the hospital where he used to work, the one where I made sure the administrators knew what their intern was doing during office hours (after the kid decided to dig in and go to battle over his BS claims of troop support).

If you tell me you're too busy to take your watch to a local watchmaker to have it demagnetized, because you're retired and yachting around the Southern California Coast*...I'm gonna remember you the next time you email us about your watch running 5 minutes fast.

And...I'm not gonna be any more flexible, Gilligan.

(*true story)


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I just got off the phone with our major telecom. 

They double charged me for December.

It was extremely weird that I didn’t sit on hold for an hour. And they are applying a credit for January.

Is it still 2021?

I probably spend too much time on here, as I do remember all the nonsense from earlier NTH threads that I was abridging. I get bizarre enjoyment out of your occasionally nutty er.. clientele? 

Sadism? Unsure if applicable… 

I only have one of your watches, and the NTH threads offer extraordinary VFM… I feel almost guilt for all the entertainment. 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

#we'renotdicks

marketing gold


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> #we'renotdicks
> 
> marketing gold


That's gonna be the sub-title of the autobiography!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I just got off the phone with our major telecom.
> 
> They double charged me for December.
> 
> ...


I'm sure some people think I'm nuts.

It's not like we only get emails from crazy people, or that all my responses are aggressive. 99% of the communications are run-of-the-mill stuff not worth remembering or repeating.

It's just the other 1% that's bat$hlt insane in the extreme. I keep thinking someday I'll be able to spot the signs and pull back on the stick before the plane goes into a tailspin, but so far, I seem incapable of reacting to "iceberg, dead ahead" quickly enough to avoid disaster.

Mixed metaphors for the win!

I try to maintain a sense of dispassionate and philosophical detachment. I try to remind myself that some small percentage of the population is simply out of their minds, and some of that segment will eventually find its way to me and my business, no matter what we do.

Think of it as "la vida loca" meets "c'est la vie" meets "que será, será".

Some peeps are crazy. That's life. Whatcha gonna do?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> …that some small percentage of the population is simply out of their minds


So you ARE an optimist! I’m relatively confident it’s a lot more than a small percentage, and with a population of 7.9 billion…well…









World Population Clock: 8 Billion People (LIVE, 2022) - Worldometer


How many people are there in the world? World population has reached 8 billion on November 15, 2022 according to the United Nations. World population live counter with data sheets, graphs, maps, and census data regarding the current, historical, and future world population figures, estimates...




www.worldometers.info


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

_Wednesday Week_, Elvis Costello, 1978, Album Taking Liberties

The movies save on conversation
And the TV saves on sight
We met in a head-on collision
So I would say our chances would be slight
You can lead and I will follow
See us dancing cheek to cheek
You'll remember me tomorrow
But you won't give a damn by Wednesday Week


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Anyone tried a shark mesh on a devilray yet?


Yup, t'was I. It's an AliExpress special and it's staying on that until I get my new book strap from Nick Mankey.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> If you tell me you're too busy to take your watch to a local watchmaker to have it demagnetized, because you're retired and yachting around the Southern California Coast*...I'm gonna remember you the next time you email us about your watch running 5 minutes fast.
> 
> And...I'm not gonna be any more flexible, Gilligan.
> 
> (*true story)


I guess his tour will just have to be 2 hours and 55 minutes.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Staib makes a good mesh. I've been happy with the one I got from Strapcode. They are expensive. For just trying out, the Ali ones are probably the way to go.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> That's gonna be the sub-title of the autobiography!


…you’re going to use the royal “we” and dicks, plural, in the title of your autobiography? 



docvail said:


> It's just the other 1% that's bat$hlt insane in the extreme. I keep thinking someday I'll be able to spot the signs and pull back on the stick before the plane goes into a tailspin, but so far, I seem incapable of reacting to "iceberg, dead ahead" quickly enough to avoid disaster.


Oh, I think you spot the signs, I just think you’re morbidly curious by nature.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> …you’re going to use the royal “we” and dicks, plural, in the title of your autobiography?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I think you spot the signs, I just think you’re morbidly curious by nature.


If we use the plural, then we use the royal. I don't make the rules for English, I just use them.

Morbid curiosity has gotten the better of me, often.

Case in point -

We sent out an email blast earlier today, about some "last of" pieces at IntoWatch in Korea. Maybe twice a year, we'll get some sort of nasty-gram reply from someone. Like, today...

Guy responded to say: 

_"Really nice that the links to these watches is in Japanese, Korean, Chinese, or another language that most Americans don't understand. So why send Emails to is in the states. Thanks for nothing a second time...."_​
Okay. You have my attention. "A second time"? I'll need to look into this, as it seems we must have failed to do something at some time in the past.

I looked up his email in my deleted items folder. The last and only time I could find anything from him was February 2017, a message he sent us asking a question about a pre-order we were doing. According to the info on that message, we sent a reply 15 minutes later. I wasn't able to locate the reply in our sent messages folder, but my hunch is our reply answered his question.

Maybe he just didn't see it? No idea. Kinda late now to go back, and point out that we did reply, especially since I can't find that reply message.

So I just replied to point out that the links in our message today actually were in English. And while the IntoWatch website may be in Korean, as far as I know, most web browsers will automatically detect when a website is in a different language than the native one in the user's browser settings, and automatically translate the website into that language. I also suggested he could unsubscribe from our emails if they're not of any interest.

Nothing rude in the message. No curses. No insults. Just a prompt, courteous and helpful reply.

The thing that always cracks me up whenever someone sends some sort of nasty-gram reply to one of our blast emails - every time, I see that the guy's apparently been subscribed for years. Why do guys subscribe, and not unsubscribe, apparently just waiting for the right moment to hit me with some sort of zinger?

They aren't even good zingers. Not a one has elicited so much as a momentary wince. I mean...it's been five years, friend. Take another year. Take two. Take all the time you need. I'm not going anywhere. Wait for your moment, then hit me with your best shot.

His response:

_"Just did unsubscribe. You'll never sell me another NTH WATCH EVER AGAIN!!!!"_​​Uhm....okay. 

Looked in my order records, and didn't see one from this guy, ever. Kind of like "Brandon" on Instagram. No record of any sale. 90% of the trolls who comment like that, no record. When I ask around with my retailers, none of them have anything from the guy claiming we done him wrong.

It's certainly possible this guy bought one used, or from one of our retailers, but...again, where and when did we do this guy wrong, if I can't find any record of him ever buying anything from us, nor any record of him asking us for anything, other than that one message, almost 5 years ago, with a single question about a pre-order, to which we responded in just 15 minutes?

The fact that the mere existence of my business apparently creates such animosity in some folks is and will continue to be something that makes me happy. I must be doing something right, if someone with whom I've never had any dealings is going to go way out of his way to try to introduce ants to my picnic.

Still, I'm convinced there has to be some sort of lunar phase thing happening recently. No way all the crazies were saving it up for December.

It truly is the most magical time of the year.


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

How about some background on the upcoming Todaro and Upholder? Looking forward to the release next year and hope it goes smoothly but I'm sucker for the story behind the watches.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

dmjonez said:


> Regarding elastic straps, I’ve tried most of the range of variations. I finally settled on the Watch Steward Minimalist version. More to follow…


Had to go back and find this as based on your mentioning of Watch Steward, I researched their site. I liked what I read and ordered an original style for both my Swiftsure and Thresher. They came in Monday and I put the one on the Swiftsure. Absolutely awesome! You can see it in my pics from yesterday and today. Balances out the watch beautifully and rides the case low to the wrist. Like wearing air! Loved it so much I just ordered originals from them for the rest of my NTH’ and I think my quest for the perfect watch strap is over. Bonus = made in USA and almost half the price of other elastic straps. 

Anyway, a big thanks for mentioning them!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> Had to go back and find this as based on your mentioning of Watch Steward, I researched their site. I liked what I read and ordered an original style for both my Swiftsure and Thresher. They came in Monday and I put the one on the Swiftsure. Absolutely awesome! You can see it in my pics from yesterday and today. Balances out the watch beautifully and rides the case low to the wrist. Like wearing air! Loved it so much I just ordered originals from them for the rest of my NTH’ and I think my quest for the perfect watch strap is over. Bonus = made in USA and almost half the price of other elastic straps.
> 
> Anyway, a big thanks for mentioning them!


I am completely at fault for not posting photos earlier, as promised. I discovered Watch Steward through many others reviews and recommendations, and looked at the range from Erika's to the Amazon bargain bin. I originally tried Amazon, as the $15usd versions seemed promising. I did like them, but found them to be a smidgen thin, and the keeper did slip a bit. I figured I'd move up to Watch Steward next, but his range of choices was almost overwhelming! And I don't like bulk, so I settled on the "Minimalist" version, and liked them so much I got three of them...
In the photos, you can see how his "slide" is a tiny bit tighter than most other brands, so it doesn't move once placed where you'd like it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> How about some background on the upcoming Todaro and Upholder? Looking forward to the release next year and hope it goes smoothly but I'm sucker for the story behind the watches.


We just sent the Todaro and Upholder off for photography. Professional pics to follow soon.

My story-generator must be on the fritz. I'm not sure what to say about them.

It's the v.2 Subs case, which is very 5513-5517 inspired, inasmuch as those were the basis for the '67 Sea-Dweller which inspired the 2K1's case design, of which the v.2 Subs are basically a scaled-down version.

Not exactly spine-tingling stuff so far, I know...

I wanted to do some stuff that wasn't going to elicit the usual "harrumph, he's making knock-offs again" sort of response from the cooler-than-cool kids on the forums and elsewhere.

The Todaro is the result of us thinking about what a "Big Number Pilot" dial might look like if we wanted to update it, jam it into a dive watch, and mix in some vaguely scuba-ish design elements. I'm kind of tired of people seeing the Scorpène, which is a basic cockpit clock, using a font from the 1800's, and saying "he's copying Sinn".

I was looking for something new to do with dial textures, something we hadn't done before, and that I haven't seen anyone else doing. I thought the basket-weave texture of an old Glashutte Spezimatic was interesting, so we used it on the Upholder.

Dan said it looks like carbon fiber, which was a kick in the gut, since it made me realize that's what people are likely to call it, which isn't all that original.

The rest of the Upholder design is a mix of "stuff I like and wanted to try" - somewhat Vostok-y handset, somewhat Blancpain-y dial pattern, mostly, with some block-print lume.

Finding the right handsets is always a pain in the tuchus. Our handset supplier's website is all but useless. The paper catalog is only marginally more useful. Very often, the handset measurements listed in the catalog aren't correct, and we don't always know it until we get the handset factory's PDF files with the "official" diagrams.

I'll sometimes try to measure the handset diagrams in the catalog, because they're supposed to be 1:1 scale. But we're talking about parts where a discrepancy measured in fractions of a millimeter can make a big difference, and holding a ruler to a paper catalog isn't exactly the pinnacle of precision measurement.

_Mildly funny / True story (side-bar) - I once found a minute hand in the carpet of my old office. Completely baffled me for more than a day. Where the hell did this minute hand come from? Is it possible it was stuck inside some package my factory sent here? That's kind of scary, if it means there are just loose hands floating around their office. _​​_Turns out, the paper catalog has some hands samples glued into a couple of the early pages, which frequently fall out and pollute my workspace. I'd noticed them before, but never paid much attention, and so I'd forgotten about them when I spotted the glint of gilt near my desk._​
We end up drafting the same design with a half-dozen handsets. Once we settle on the set we want, we'll often re-do the dial to make sure the hands and dial elements line up in such a way that it doesn't all look accidental or haphazard. Even so, there's never a 100% guarantee that everything will line up exactly as expected.

We had to do a lot of that with the Todaro and the Upholder. I think we absolutely nailed it with the Upholder, and got close enough with the Todaro.

It's one of the little things I notice when I look at watch designs - not just whether or not the hands are too short or mismatched, which I see a lot, but also whether or not the hands line up with anything on the dial. I think it's something that some people notice, and appreciate when it's done right.

Speaking of fonts...I gotta give another shout-out to Aaron. People on the forums love to complain about fonts, and for the real nerds, kerning. Aaron is a master at both, and has gotten in the habit of either modifying fonts, or if needed, inventing his own for NTH designs. It's not something most people notice, but only because it's not very noticeable when it's done well. He subtly modified a font for the upcoming Sgt Mack tribute model, and it looks awesome.

We experiment some with colors, too. We'll try different variations of a design with some yellow or red text on the dial, or on the seconds hand. My feeling is that a little color goes a long way, and the bolder the color, the farther it goes. So with most designs, when we mix in a splash of color, it's a little splash, not a big one.

We've done black-and-red, blue-and-red, blue-and-yellow, black-and-orange, blue-and-orange, and black-and-blue, but I think these are the first designs we've ever done with black-and-yellow. I'm not sure, but I might have had the Omega Aqua Terra 15k gauss embedded somewhere in the back of my mind.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

That is just great info. I love it! Thank you for sharing it. I don't know if a lot of people care or get excited about it, but I do. I'm definitely in for an Upholder. I can't wait to see the dial texture and I think yellow and black is a good choice. Can't wait to see the pictures.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm sure some people think I'm nuts.
> 
> It's not like we only get emails from crazy people, or that all my responses are aggressive. 99% of the communications are run-of-the-mill stuff not worth remembering or repeating.
> 
> ...


If you can’t beat ‘em…

I can’t imagine the uptick in loonies if you did Black Friday sales or other such retail ritual seppuku.

When life hands you icebergs, CCGS Captain Molly Kool - Wikipedia

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## joeax61 (Jan 29, 2019)

docvail said:


> Aaaannnnddddd...just like that, something cool happens to brighten my day...
> 
> Got an order last night that was suspicious for two reasons. First, the customer's name is somewhat famous (think second generation celebrity). Second, the customer paid by PayPal, but the account was unverified.
> 
> ...


Very interesting Doc...I also had to a(Vail) myself of this beauty, courtesy of a great Black Friday deal at LIWC! (Don't mind the mess in the background, day off today!)


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Early #NTHursday

Still one of my favorite watches, period.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hard to find L&H Orthos Commander 300, blue no-date, on eBay. 

NOT my listing.









Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300 Watch | eBay


<body><p>Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300 Watch. </p><br /><p>Nice watch, works well. Some wear around bezel and minor signs of wear throughout. Band does show some scratches as seen in photos.</p><br /><br /><p> Case Material: 316L Stainless Steel Caseback: Engraved 316L Stainless Steel Display...



www.ebay.com


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Wow, I've got a lot of catching up to do in this thread. 

But for now. Almost 10:10 wrist shot. The project I've dedicated the last 3ish months to is all shrink wrapped and ready for transpo.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

While I do realize it’s #NTHursday, I thought I’d share my last horologophile purchase of 2021. I’d been tracking this one for a while, but the recent discussion here about trying to figure out 24 hour time put me over the edge. Full disclosure I was active duty 28 years and have zero trouble doing 24 hour time. In fact just the opposite, I get annoyed when I need to identity am or pm when a 24 hour reference negates that necessity. I’m sure most think I write my dates backwards as well 😂. Added bonus, this will help me teach 24 timekeeping to my grandson as he learns to tell time!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#NTHursday. 

I didn’t chose the thug life, the thug life chose me.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Cycling back though some other watches from my small collection. This one is now the one I've owned the longest but was the fourth one I bought.

1 Oris Artix GT now sold
2 seiko snzf sea urchin gifted to family 
3 seiko stargate pvd on long term loan to another family member


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Cycling back though some other watches from my small collection. This one is now the one I've owned the longest but was the fourth one I bought.
> 
> 1 Oris Artix GT now sold
> 2 seiko snzf sea urchin gifted to family
> ...












































Plus a couple demoted to the drawer of shame and a Flieger build that I display instead of wear.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Oh, I've got others, those were the first.

Current collection is
Nth swiftsure White
NTH Odin black
NTH Devilray white
Seiko:
Darth Turtle
STO great white turtle
Anthracite Grey turtle
Samurai
Solar Tuna
MM200
Seiko 5 desskx anthracite
Steinhart OVM


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Rookie numbers are good with me, aim to keep under 12. Straps, well that's a whole different story


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Cycling back though some other watches from my small collection. This one is now the one I've owned the longest but was the fourth one I bought.
> 
> 1 Oris Artix GT now sold
> 2 seiko snzf sea urchin gifted to family
> ...


I'm definitely not a Seiko hater, but I definitely don't love them like I used to, before they made sweeping changes to their model ranges and pricing.

I still have two in the collection, an orange-dial steel Samurai and the SBDC053. I bought them both together in a two-fer deal from a Seiko AD in NYC, before Seiko lost its mind, so...maybe 4-5 years ago. The SBDC feels like a nice enough watch. The Samurai is okay, not great. 

It seems like both Seiko and Citizen have made a decision to let their mid-range offerings stagnate, if not entirely die out. It's like everything they make now is either under $400 or over $1000, and none of it seems nearly as awesome as what it replaced. 

I don't get it, but it seems to have largely coincided with them breaking up and re-branding their US operations in 2018. 









Business News: Grand Seiko Corp Of America Becomes Its Own Company


By introducing the first independent Grand Seiko subsidiary, Seiko Japan makes its push into the U.S. luxury watch segment clear.




www.hodinkee.com





I wonder if they think their push to get Grand Seiko elevated to Rolex-level (in terms of market perception) requires a wider gap between GS and the lower-level stuff.

That seems to jive with this quote from the new boss Akio Naito (who was recently promoted from his position as CEO of GS USA): 

_"Seiko has become a brand of no clear identity," Naito told the FT. "'Everything for everybody' ended up being 'everything for nobody.' That has to be changed."_









Recommended Reading: Seiko President Akio Naito Says The Company Needs To Be 'Awakened'


Straight talk from the new boss at Seiko.




www.hodinkee.com





I don't suppose that bodes well for those of us hoping they'd make the 6L35 calibre available for wholesale purchase, at a cost comparable to the Miyota 9015.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

I think buying a few Seiko's is probably on most peoples roadmap at some point in watch collecting.
I was lucky in that my wife worked in a department store so the discounts were significant

The only one that I'm really lusting after at the moment is the SPB143, grey 62MAS style


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> I don't suppose that bodes well for those of us hoping they'd make the 6L35 calibre available for wholesale purchase, at a cost comparable to the Miyota 9015.


Sorpod makes the same movement in the form of the M100 (formerly A10). I wonder if there's some kind of exclusivity deal where only Soprod can sell it as a third party movement. The story around that movement seems a bit fuzzy.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I have a Seiko Samurai Save the Ocean. Like the dial a lot. Not a bad watch. Been looking at the newer Monster PADI edition. Looks awesome and love the colorway but I'm not sure I dig the PADI branding. I think I've decided I'll just wait for the Upholder to come out. That 24hr Sobrite looks damn cool and I always am looking for another 24hr watch to add to my collection.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Semi-sort-of-on-previous-topic:

Sometimes it doesn’t matter how clear you make something in a sale listing, there are people out there who don’t understand. 

I just got a PM asking if I had sold a watch I listed a while back. Here’s the thing: I literally put the word “SOLD” in ALL CAPS in the body of that listing _twelve times_, including the top and bottom of the post, and directly above and below where I listed the price, and I also put it twice in the title.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

_ Workin’ for the Weekend_, Loverboy, 1981, Album “Get Lucky”
Everybody's working for the weekend
Everybody wants an NTH Thresher
Everybody's goin' off the deep end
Everybody needs something Fresher, oh
You want a piece of high class
You better find one fast
You wanna be in the show
Come on baby let‘s go…


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

RotorRonin said:


> Semi-sort-of-on-previous-topic:
> 
> Sometimes it doesn’t matter how clear you make something in a sale listing, there are people out there who don’t understand.
> 
> I just got a PM asking if I had sold a watch I listed a while back. Here’s the thing: I literally put the word “SOLD” in ALL CAPS in the body of that listing _twelve times_, including the top and bottom of the post, and directly above and below where I listed the price, and I also put it twice in the title.


How much do you want for it?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

But is it sold?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

josiahg52 said:


> But is it sold?


You're kidding me aren't ya... at that price...tell'im he's dreamin'!

I'll give ya half RotorRonin just to take it off your hands...and consider that a steal!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Red PeeKay said:


> You're kidding me aren't ya... at that price...tell'im he's dreamin'!
> 
> I'll give ya half RotorRonin just to take it off your hands...and consider that a steal!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Oh yeah, definitely kidding.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Semi-sort-of-on-previous-topic:
> 
> Sometimes it doesn’t matter how clear you make something in a sale listing, there are people out there who don’t understand.
> 
> I just got a PM asking if I had sold a watch I listed a while back. Here’s the thing: I literally put the word “SOLD” in ALL CAPS in the body of that listing _twelve times_, including the top and bottom of the post, and directly above and below where I listed the price, and I also put it twice in the title.


So it's no longer available?

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> Sorpod makes the same movement in the form of the M100 (formerly A10). I wonder if there's some kind of exclusivity deal where only Soprod can sell it as a third party movement. The story around that movement seems a bit fuzzy.


Yes and no.

I'm pretty sure the A10 was the 4L from Seiko. I don't know the exact details of the evolution from 4L to 6L, nor the exact details of the evolution from A10 to M100. While there may be little to differentiate them, it's possible there's enough to say they're distinct.

Either way, I've talked to Soprod. The M100 is significantly more than the Miyota 9, which makes it more than what I'd been hoping Seiko might charge for the 6L.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Rookie numbers are good with me, aim to keep under 12. Straps, well that's a whole different story


1. NTH rubber straps are great if you do not already have them for your NTH subs

2. Vario makes a strap roll that might be worth looking into.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Speaking to the Seiko convo, they have definitely changed their approach. They are focusing upscale in just about every way...except they seem to be ignoring WIS concerns over movement accuracy in the 6R range. I have to assume it is selling well, leading them to see no reason for change.

5-10 years ago I considered their comparably priced watches better quality than micros. After some purchases over the last 2 years that is no longer the case.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Mediocre said:


> Speaking to the Seiko convo, they have definitely changed their approach. They are focusing upscale in just about every way...except they seem to be ignoring WIS concerns over movement accuracy in the 6R range. I have to assume it is selling well, leading them to see no reason for change.
> 
> 5-10 years ago I considered their comparably priced watches better quality than micros. After some purchases over the last 2 years that is no longer the case.


I have one Seiko, the 300m Tuna, one of my go to favorites (next to the Tikuna), however got that one because it's a classic. Nothing else they do rings my bell and if I'm spending thousands then I'll treat myself to a Timemachinist or a Kav....


Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> I have one Seiko, the 300m Tuna, one of my go to favorites (next to the Tikuna), however got that one because it's a classic. Nothing else they do rings my bell and if I'm spending thousands then I'll treat myself to a Timemachinist or a Kav....
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I had a GS for awhile. Very nice, but a bit small for me. All the polished surfaces were scratch magnets as well. Not sure if that speaks to the watch or my goofy ass


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Mediocre said:


> 1. NTH rubber straps are great if you do not already have them for your NTH subs
> 
> 2. Vario makes a strap roll that might be worth looking into.


Wow, liking that vario strap roll, thanks for sharing.

I reckon I'd be close to filling it on day 1


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I was shopping some higher end watches for a split second and checked out some Seiko.










LE Alpinist was surprisingly meh; LOVE the KS reissue. SLA049 was all, damn... it fits.... But true surprise was the SRQ035. Seiko really knows how to make ridiculously thicc watches fit nice on the wrist. Not shown, the new sharp edge/Presage GMT (too big, by far), and a GS SBGN003. Of them all, liked the GS better, but even more than that, still have my eye on a Tudor BB36...

In the meantime, other end of the price spectrum, Seiko got it right with the DressKX series.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

In the words of Elton John, circa 1973, from the “Goodbye Yellow Brick Road” album…
Saturday, Saturday, Saturday
Saturday, Saturday, Saturday
Saturday, Saturday
Saturday night's alright

Saturday, Saturday, Saturday
Saturday, Saturday, Saturday
Saturday, Saturday
Saturday night's alright

Saturday, Saturday, Saturday
Saturday, Saturday, Saturday
Saturday, Saturday
Saturday night's alright, ooh


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> In the meantime, other end of the price spectrum, Seiko got it right with the DressKX series.
> 
> View attachment 16305411


Except for the hideous day/date. With a marker there instead, that would be a fanstastic design.

Why why why the majors make so few no-date watches is a mystery to me, but it means most of my money has been directed to microbrands that accommodate that particular taste in design.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Speaking to the Seiko convo, they have definitely changed their approach. They are focusing upscale in just about every way...except they seem to be ignoring WIS concerns over movement accuracy in the 6R range. I have to assume it is selling well, leading them to see no reason for change.
> 
> 5-10 years ago I considered their comparably priced watches better quality than micros. After some purchases over the last 2 years that is no longer the case.


I get the distinct sense that Seiko, like many, if not most large brands, sees the enthusiast segment of the market as being too difficult to bother.

There was definitely a 2-3 year period when Seiko had me concerned. Like when the Sumo was ~$400. Even at the time, I thought that was insane. I don't know if currency exchange rates had anything to do with it, but I remember thinking at the time that we (microbrands in general, but specifically L&H / NTH) had to find ways to compete on something other than price.

I don't feel that way about Seiko at all any more. Nothing in their product mix seems to compete directly with most micros. I don't see anything they're making and think, "wow, that's some stiff competition."

I'm sure I've told this story before, but when I attended the Hong Kong show in 2018, I got into a convo with a VP at the Seiko booth. When I told him I mostly used the Miyota 9015, he told me they had a successor to the NE15 (6r15) in the works, something to compete head-to-head against the Miyota. I got excited for about 10 seconds, before the convo continued...

I generally recall asking some pointed questions for specific details on the newer calibre, mentioning the 9015's main virtues, and why I preferred it over the 6r - its thinness, accuracy, and higher beat rate. I recall the VP asking if the 6r's longer power reserve was something of interest, and the convo ending soon after my saying it really wasn't. 

I can still recall the sense I had, of looming disappointment coming in the future.

Fast forward to now, and despite my hopes that the 6L35 would be the calibre they gave us, we instead got the 6r35, basically just a longer PR version of the 6r15, no thinner, apparently no more accurate, and still not high beat.

Meanwhile - excitement alert - another microbrand owner told me he heard Miyota had a mechanical GMT movement in the works...

I can just imagine the future convo at the Hong Kong Booth...

ME: "Why doesn't Seiko make a mechanical GMT to compete with Miyota?"

SEIKO: "Is the central power-reserve indicator of the NE57 something of interest?"

ME: "I swear it's like i'm talking to a box of hammers..."


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I get the distinct sense that Seiko, like many, if not most large brands, sees the enthusiast segment of the market as being too difficult to bother.
> 
> There was definitely a 2-3 year period when Seiko had me concerned. Like when the Sumo was ~$400. Even at the time, I thought that was insane. I don't know if currency exchange rates had anything to do with it, but I remember thinking at the time that we (microbrands in general, but specifically L&H / NTH) had to find ways to compete on something other than price.
> 
> ...


I agree. Seiko has had so much success re-introducing "modern" takes on their vintage models with the meh 6R35, and selling for $1k+.....or 8 series movement for $3k+...they have moved on from competing on specs in the $400-$800 range.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Avo said:


> Except for the hideous day/date. With a marker there instead, that would be a fanstastic design.
> 
> Why why why the majors make so few no-date watches is a mystery to me, but it means most of my money has been directed to microbrands that accommodate that particular taste in design.


I actually love day/date windows, and the more modern-looking borderless ones are my favorite. 

But I do wish they would color-match the wheels.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> I recall the VP asking if the 6r's longer power reserve was something of interest, and the convo ending soon after my saying it really wasn't.


Thank you. I can't remember ever wishing for a watch that would stay running longer while I'm not wearing it. Longer power reserve is a BS feature. I wish Seiko and Swatch Group would get the message and give us some real improvements.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

MrDisco99 said:


> Thank you. I can't remember ever wishing for a watch that would stay running longer while I'm not wearing it. Longer power reserve is a BS feature. I wish Seiko and Swatch Group would get the message and give us some real improvements.


Longer PR is a novelty to me. Given the choice of 30 extra hours or a higher beat rate, I choose beat rate


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> ME: "I swear it's like i'm talking to a box of hammers..."


Sorry Doc, I'm going to have to correct your grammar here.... that would be talking to a box of hammerheads... or pecker heads

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

RotorRonin said:


> I actually love day/date windows, and the more modern-looking borderless ones are my favorite.
> 
> But I do wish they would color-match the wheels.


I couldn't agree more RotorRonin.. Visitors Linden Snowfall is a stunning piece, but that black date window on the white dial... you couldn't pay me enough to take it. Drop the date and I'm all in...

















Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

It's possible to do a day/date and maintain good design:









But slapping it at 3 with no balancing elements? No, just no. Make an effort people.

Rusty did a good job with the date on the Icarus, so good that I actually bought the date version instead of the no-date:


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Avo said:


> It's possible to do a day/date and maintain good design:
> View attachment 16306962
> 
> 
> ...


Sometimes it works:










and I normally would’ve swapped the day/date disks to white on black… 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Sorry, but IMO that's an epic fail. No subtlety, no sense of proportion, no integration into the rest of the design, just, Hey! We need a day/date here!

At least Seiko didn't put extra dots near the 10 on the bezel. Doing so is a total dealbreaker for me, wipes a buncha NTH subs off my "might buy" list.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Avo said:


> Sorry, but IMO that's an epic fail. No subtlety, no sense of proportion, no integration into the rest of the design, just, Hey! We need a day/date here!
> 
> At least Seiko didn't put extra dots near the 10 on the bezel. Doing so is a total dealbreaker for me, wipes a buncha NTH subs off my "might buy" list.


You're looking for subtlety on a Tuna?

The day date on that Tuna doesn't bug me as the watch has other asymmetrical elements which make it seem right IMO. Seiko is also very unlikely to put a no-date in a Seiko 5 Sports model as day and date are 2 of the 5 things required of Seiko 5. Those models posted above can be found < $200 street price. Hard to complain about an off-the-shelf movement at that price.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Avo said:


> Except for the hideous day/date. With a marker there instead, that would be a fanstastic design.


Welll... that's part of the whole Seiko 5 thing, so...

I got watches that span the whole spectrum - day/date, date, no-date.

And, truth be told, if it really bothered me, I could simply further mod the SRPE53 to date or no-date. Availability of compatible OEM and aftermarket mod parts for Seiko is amazeballz.

Nod to Seiko on the new 5 Sport watches, that they maintained mod-ability for enthusiasts. Take the DressKX series - would have been easy enough to forgo a chapter ring for solid rehaut, and a larger dial, but instead, many mod parts are still drop in swaps for many pieces.

But yeah, props to microbrands like especially NTH and Atticus for providing date and no-date options. And of all the bizarre asks and complaints about NTH, I don't think I've ever heard, "If only Doc would do a day/date version..."



RotorRonin said:


> I actually love day/date windows, and the more modern-looking borderless ones are my favorite.
> 
> But I do wish they would color-match the wheels.


See, I go the other way - i think that color matched set doesn't balance out the index at 9. Best balance would be white date only dial, or this combo with black day wheel and white date. With my blue dial setup, white for both works well enough.



docvail said:


> Meanwhile - excitement alert - another microbrand owner told me he heard Miyota had a mechanical GMT movement in the works...


Wut?!? Sweeeeet...


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Tanker G1 said:


> You're looking for subtlety on a Tuna?


I had to laugh on reading this. Tunas certainly aren't subtle, especially the great pelagic Tunas. 

I like a day/date. I work weird hours and lots of them, so what day of the week it is can get a little blurry at times. I like instant confirmation that, yes, it's Thursday, since it was feeling like Wednesday and I didn't want the crushing disappointment of finding out that, no, it's not Friday just yet. I like a day/date. 










Not seeing a problem here. Not at all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Extra dots on the besel?

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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

docvail said:


> Extra dots on the besel?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I think he means four minute/second dashes vs three. This,








vs this


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Snaggletooth said:


> I think he means four minute/second dashes vs three. This,
> View attachment 16307726
> 
> vs this
> View attachment 16307728


Those wouldn't be "extra". We didn't "add" minutes which don't really exist.

There are only three minute markers between the other hour markers on the bezel because the other hour markers are wider, and thus there's no room for the fourth minute marker. 

With the 10, because it's thinner, it's a choice between having that fourth marker snugged up against the number, or omitting it, and leaving an oddly blank space where that minute marker would (and arguably, should) be.

It's the opposite on the DevilRay. The hour markers on the dial and the bezel are so wide, we only have room for two of the minute markers. Someone once called that out, and said the markers were "missing". They're not "missing". Their placement would overlap with where the hour markers are, because of the hour markers' width.

We're just doing what's possible with the space available.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

docvail said:


> Those wouldn't be "extra". We didn't "add" minutes which don't really exist.
> 
> There are only three minute markers between the other hour markers on the bezel because the other hour markers are wider, and thus there's no room for the fourth minute marker.
> 
> ...


I hear you Brother. I’m happy either way, if it looks right it is right.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

_Sunday_, David Bowie, Album “Heathen“, circa 2002

Everything has changed 
For in truth, it's the beginning of nothing
And nothing has changed 
Everything has changed
For in truth, it's the beginning of an end
And nothing has changed
And everything has changed


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I agree. Seiko has had so much success re-introducing "modern" takes on their vintage models with the meh 6R35, and selling for $1k+.....or 8 series movement for $3k+...they have moved on from competing on specs in the $400-$800 range.


There's a guy who lives in my town. I met him when he was running for local school board. Turns out, he's kind of a watch geek, but doesn't hang around the forums, and doesn't go on social media to talk about watches.

In his collection, he's got a vintage Rolex "Pepsi" GMT, a newer Speedmaster, and the recent Seiko "Willard" re-issue, plus whatever else.

He's kind of my personal "watch geek on the street" example of what the industry hopes to target - guys who like watches, and will buy more than one, but not spend all their time online arguing about or obsessing over tiny details.

He was wearing his Willard last time I saw him. The one with the olive green bezel and dial. He was totally smitten with it. I asked him what he paid, and was shocked when he said they go for more than $1k. It had been a while since I paid any attention to what Seiko was doing.

I asked him what movement was in it. He didn't know. I asked him about the accuracy. He had no idea.

That's exactly the type of customer Seiko and the rest of the industry want to cultivate.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Only out of curiosity regarding longer PR movements...

Mechanical movements tend to become less accurate as they wind down. As such, I'd be very curious to know how accurate various movements are over their entire power reserve, from full-wind down to dead stop.

We always talk about accuracy over a 24 hour period, but we're supposed to measure that rate at full power, using a timegrapher, not literally over a 24 hour period. But that probably isn't going to give the same result someone might get over the course of a literal 24 hours of the watch being on the wrist and / or off the wrist.

It's been a while since I read up on COSC testing, but if memory serves, the testing focuses on the performance over the first 24 hours, even if the PR goes to 38 hours, or whatever.

Does a longer PR have any real value if the watch is being worn every day, and presumably always near full wind, or, if not, does the longer PR matter if the accuracy drops off precipitously after a day of winding down?

I'd love to see a comparative analysis of various movements' accuracy over their entire PR, to see if the extension of PR brings any benefit or trade-off in reduced accuracy, the way many believe reduced beat rate tends to mean lower accuracy.

For example, if a 9015 runs for 44 hours, over which time it gains or loses 4 seconds, that's a gain or loss of 1 second for every 11 hours of PR. If the 6r35 runs for 72 hours, and gains or loses 8 seconds over that time, that's a gain or loss of 1 second for every 9 hours of PR.

It doesn't necessarily change the actual accuracy measured on a timegrapher or observed on the wrist, but that sort of analysis would perhaps make it easier to understand the value of having a longer PR, especially if a longer PR pointed to improved accuracy in the first 24 hours.

I guess I'm still trying to figure out the real-world value of longer PR's, in any scenario. Wearing the same watch every day, they wouldn't seem to matter. Not wearing the watch for longer than the PR lasts, necessitating the time being re-set, they wouldn't seem to matter.

Even if the watch is still running when you go back to wear it, if it's gained or lost a ton of time, you would still need to re-set it, thus negating one of the apparent values of having a longer PR.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> There's a guy who lives in my town. I met him when he was running for local school board. Turns out, he's kind of a watch geek, but doesn't hang around the forums, and doesn't go on social media to talk about watches.
> 
> In his collection, he's got a vintage Rolex "Pepsi" GMT, a newer Speedmaster, and the recent Seiko "Willard" re-issue, plus whatever else.
> 
> ...


Great example. The Hodinkee crowd, not the WUS crowd


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> There's a guy who lives in my town. I met him when he was running for local school board. Turns out, he's kind of a watch geek, but doesn't hang around the forums, and doesn't go on social media to talk about watches.
> 
> In his collection, he's got a vintage Rolex "Pepsi" GMT, a newer Speedmaster, and the recent Seiko "Willard" re-issue, plus whatever else.
> 
> ...


I’d bet the majority of people who buy watches are like that guy. We’re the weird ones.


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Power reserve. 

It's one of those things that sound cool. "Hey, my watch can go 80 hours." Sounds good, but how useful is it really? 

My yardstick for power reserve is this: can the watch go a full weekend without crapping out when I'm doing as little as possible? This is the yardstick. 

My automatics can all do this without problem--except one. The 7s26 watches, the 6r15, the 9015--all these can make it through a weekend with me doing as little as possible. The ETA 2893-2 can't make it a whole weekend with minimal activity. It needs some manual winding if hardcore sedentary behavior is on the menu. 

My quartz watches exist in a different reality and this simply doesn't apply to them. Tuna don't care.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MrDisco99 said:


> I’d bet the majority of people who buy watches are like that guy. We’re the weird ones.


I literally just ran into him again at the gym this afternoon. He was wearing a G-Shock.

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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I literally just ran into him again at the gym this afternoon. He was wearing a G-Shock.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Yeah, but probably this one Doc... no garden variety G for him! 









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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Man... from dots on bezels here, to capped second hands in the GS subforum...

Is there, like, some kind of picayune detail competition going on, or something...?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> Man... from dots on bezels here, to capped second hands in the GS subforum...
> 
> Is there, like, some kind of picayune detail competition going on, or something...?


Bah, unless there’s lume on the crown ridges, the watch sucks…


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Extra dots on the besel?


Yeh, extra dots on bezel. Next to the 10. 

Here's a bezel without 'em, the way God intended:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Yeh, extra dots on bezel. Next to the 10.
> 
> Here's a bezel without 'em, the way God intended:
> View attachment 16309009


So it's missing minute markers...

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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Avo said:


> Yeh, extra dots on bezel. Next to the 10.
> 
> Here's a bezel without 'em, the way God intended:
> View attachment 16309009


Why is there no 30 mark?

Nope


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

MrDisco99 said:


> I’d bet the majority of people who buy watches are like that guy. We’re the weird ones.



I resent that. I was weird long before I GAD about watches!


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> So it's missing minute markers...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I told him cold wash only... see, That's what happens when ya wash 'em in hot water... stuff washes off or fades..

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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Sloan441 said:


> hardcore sedentary behaviour



This just made my day


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Today's off-topic brand of choice


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

_Monday Morning_, Fleetwood Mac, Album Fleetwood Mac, circa 1975
Monday morning you sure look fine
Friday I got travelin' on my mind
First you love me and then you say it's wrong
You know I can't go on believing for long


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Finally off the boat and home. Little bit of lume showing as it's a dreich winter's night in Scotland. I'm off home to resize my latest acquisition that DHL just dropped off from RZE in Singapore.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

gavindavie said:


> Finally off the boat and home. Little bit of lume showing as it's a dreich winter's night in Scotland. I'm off home to resize my latest acquisition that DHL just dropped off from RZE in Singapore.
> View attachment 16309984


Which model did you go for from RZE?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Possibly of interest, re - bezel inserts...

We just re-stocked the Amphion Commando inserts, after being sold out for a couple months. I took the opportunity today to reconcile inventory, and look back at our insert sales, to see if I could glean any insights.

Prior to making the inserts available on the website, we hardly ever had anyone ask about replacements. I'd estimate that between 2016 and 2020, we might have replaced 5, tops, and of those, I'd say only 2, maybe 3 really "needed" it.

As such, I assume that the vast majority of those inserts we've sold have not been for replacement of damaged inserts, but rather for people to mod their NTH Subs, especially as I see the same people's names on more than a few orders (looking at you, Jimmy, Mike, and a couple others here).

To date (since making them available on demand in early 2020), we've sold about 1 insert for every 30 NTH Subs we've produced going back to 2016, which seems like a lot of inserts to me - 145 inserts.

The most frequently ordered insert has been the Barracuda Vintage Black (19 inserts), followed closely by (tied for 2nd) the Amphion Commando (14) and the Kiger Red Ronin / Oberon v.2 (same insert).

This also supports my belief that the vast majority are going for mods, not replacements, since the numbers for inserts sold don't in any way align with the numbers for each Subs version we've produced. We only made 60 of the Commando, and only 100 between the Kiger and the Oberon v.2. No way in hell 14 of 60 Commando buyers already need a replacement insert.

The fact that we've produced 700 of the Näcken Modern Blue, yet only sold 5 of that insert, would also seem to back me up on that, and what I've said about the durability of PVD/DLC coated steel. Likewise, we've only sold a handful of inserts from other popular models, like the Näcken Modern Black, Santa Cruz, and Scorpène Black.

(EDIT to add - not to mention the 3 inserts we sold that were just one-offs, not from any model we actually produced.)

So...why those three, the BVB, Commando, and Kiger?

My hunch is that some folks wanted to replace the fully-indexed bezel on their Amphion with the less-busy Barracuda or Kiger insert, or, perhaps they wanted to replace their Barracuda insert with the slightly more-busy and Rolex-y Kiger insert. It's also possible that some folks just wanted to have a spare insert for their Barracuda, since we've sold almost 500 of those.

As for the Commando insert - I think it's just an unexpectedly versatile insert, which some folks have put to good use (again, looking at you, Jimmy, Mike, and a couple others here).

Or, maybe people just go ape$hlt over a red triangle on a bezel.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just in case anyone is skeptical about the durability aspect, in light of the above...

Looking at the numbers here, they really do defy any attempt to connect numbers of Subs versions produced with numbers of bezel inserts sold, if we're trying to deduce something about their durability (something other than they're very durable).

For instance, the Odin Black and Odin Blue were released at the same time, so it's reasonable to think that we should see similar replacement rates, if the replacements were due to damage. Yet we've sold 1 insert for every 20 we produced of the blue, and only 1 for every 100 of the black.

When I saw that, and some other numbers, I thought maybe the blue inserts were less durable than the black, because the blue is PVD and the black is DLC. But that wouldn't seem to be the case, since 2 of the top 3 selling inserts are black.

Plus, there's this: Näcken Modern Blue - 1 insert for every 140 produced since 2017; Modern Black (plus 2 other models using the same insert) - 1 for every 60 going back to 2016. Clearly the insert sales aren't driven by durability / damage.

My hunch is people are using the Odin Blue insert on their Näcken Modern Blues, maybe (new Pelagos MN, anyone?).

Santa Cruz (blue insert) - 1 insert for every 50 watches produced. Santa Fe (black) - 1 for every 9.

Tikuna (black) - 1 for 100. Skipjack (black) - 0 for 100.

Barracuda Blue / Näcken Vintage Blue (same insert, blue) - 1 for 40.

Renegade / Näcken Vintage White / Zwaardvis (same insert, black) - 1 for 67.5.

Scorpène Blue - 1 for 85. Tiburon (also blue) - 1 for 10.

Barracuda Brown - 1 for 62.5. Holland (also brown) - 1 for 25 (out of 50 produced), but those 2 inserts were sold to Serious, because they wanted to have some inserts on hand, just in case. As far as I know, they haven't needed to use them, so we're 0 for 50 there.

No real rhyme or reason to any of it. It's gotta be mods, not damaged parts replacement.

Once you look past the inserts we've sold for the BVB, Commando, and Kiger, the numbers are all pretty low, ranging from 0 to 7, with an average of 2.8 per insert version, when we've produced 100 per Subs version (on average). If you take out those 3 best-selling insert versions, and those three Subs versions, we've sold roughly 1 insert for every 47 Subs produced since 2016.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Looks like Monta also has a try it before you buy it sort of program now. A little different twist though, with a "dummy" (non -working) sample...









Monta's Home Try On Program - What a great idea!!


Monta has launched a superb home try on program that I hope other brands will emulate. The program is simple and super helpful for potential buyers. You let Monta know you want to take part and what model you want to try on. I specified a color dial I wanted to see, but they didn't have my...




www.watchuseek.com





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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Possibly of interest, re - bezel inserts...
> 
> We just re-stocked the Amphion Commando inserts, after being sold out for a couple months. I took the opportunity today to reconcile inventory, and look back at our insert sales, to see if I could glean any insights.
> 
> ...


For me if started with the Nazario Ghost. I wanted s sorta Ghost bezel from the get go. Glad it came o fruition. As for the commando one, that one is just plain fun-ky imo. Adding that to the tikuna was easy. As for the others, I just wanted to see what my mind was thinking. Like you said, opting for a less busy or more dependent on the original bezel. You know, grass is always greener on the other side right? Lol 

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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Well... I got a Scorpene Nomad after selling an Amphion Commando. Liked the Amphion, but love the Scorpene. And then the inserts became available. So yeah, I got a Commando bezel... And a Vanguard. And a regular Scorpene bezel, just in case. Right?

I picked up a BSH Bromax dialed Nazario Ghost, which begged for an Amphion insert.

Probably, I would have picked up a Catalina insert, too, if I didn't get the DLC Scorpene with it already installed.

I'm into modding, a bezel insert is pretty easy, and no telling how long any given insert will be in stock. Even better, knowing that they are Sub v2 compatible.

I will be surprised if Odin Blue insert doesn't start selling more.

Commando bezel... dirty secret: I'm just not that into divers. So a dive timing bezel...? Not so much. Better a countdown bezel, and best, poor man's GMT 12 hr bezel. One that combines both? Score! So useful.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> .The most frequently ordered insert has been the Barracuda Vintage Black (19 inserts), followed closely by (tied for 2nd) the Amphion Commando (14) and the Kiger Red Ronin / Oberon v.2 (same insert)..
> 
> So...why those three, the BVB, Commando, and Kiger?
> 
> Or, maybe people just go ape$hlt over a red triangle on a bezel.


And if they were as easy to change on a regular basis like bracelets/straps... you'd sell a heap more! 

It's all about changing up the look. I'm constantly changing my bands, if I could do it as easily with inserts... budda boom budda bing...kaaching. I'd be a poorer man for sure!

As for the red triangle...I mean you know red goes faster don't cha..

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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Snaggletooth said:


> Which model did you go for from RZE?


I got the Fortitude in cruiserwhite. I've not had a full face lume before nor titanium. It is wierdly light in both senses of the word. It lit up my bedroom after a charge with my uv torch last night 😏


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> [...]
> So a dive timing bezel...? Not so much. Better a countdown bezel, and best, poor man's GMT 12 hr bezel. One that combines both? Score! So useful.


I don't dive across time zones neither... Once I have found out how to access the internal bezel of my Antilles, which has elegant, narrow hours written on it I'll add minute minute dots on the chamfered edge for the first fifteen minutes: best of both worlds without making it buzzingly busy.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

VH944 said:


> I don't dive across time zones neither... Once I have found out how to access the internal bezel of my Antilles, which has elegant, narrow hours written on it I'll add minute minute dots on the chamfered edge for the first fifteen minutes: best of both worlds without making it buzzingly busy.


Pffft... too easy, below will give you easy access to that internal bezel.. never fails 









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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

gavindavie said:


> I got the Fortitude in cruiserwhite. I've not had a full face lume before nor titanium. It is wierdly light in both senses of the word. It lit up my bedroom after a charge with my uv torch last night 😏


Cool. Mine.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Back to NTH 
















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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

_Sweet Tuesday Morning_, Badfinger, Album Straight Up, circa 1971

I've been to places all around, astound me
I've seen the breaking of the souvenirs
I'm in a brightness I can feel surround me
And it's the first time I've felt it for years


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Thresher all black. The Darth Vader of NTH.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Just in case anyone is skeptical about the durability aspect, in light of the above...
> 
> Looking at the numbers here, they really do defy any attempt to connect numbers of Subs versions produced with numbers of bezel inserts sold, if we're trying to deduce something about their durability (something other than they're very durable).
> 
> ...


I have to admit the two bezels I bought were both for modding my NTH Subs. I bought an Oberon bezel for my Santa Fe because I wanted the matching C3 lume and the red triangle at 12. I also got the Amphion blue bezel for my Barracuda blue, along with some gilt sword hands, to create my own take on an Amphion gilt. I have now modded all of my subs in small ways 
















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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

New Parachute strap modded to “minimalist style” so it sits flat on the wrist with no material under the case. One of my most comfortable watch/strap combo’s.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

...and a (modded) NTH.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> My hunch is that some folks wanted to replace the fully-indexed bezel on their Amphion with the less-busy Barracuda or Kiger insert


This is exactly why I bought a BVB insert, although I haven't followed through on the mod yet.



docvail said:


> Or, maybe people just go ape$hlt over a red triangle on a bezel.


...also valid. Red triangles are haute, after all.

Ok, this brings me to a minor hangup of mine. I've had this on my mind for a while, now I'm wondering if I'm the only one.

White triangles with white pip.

Yeah, I know, Pelagos and all that. Still, every time I see one, I find myself asking, "Why bother with the pip? Why not just a solid triangle?"

To me, the only reason for the circle-in-triangle is to inset a different material or color. And yeah, a lot of times on monochromatic dials there's no need or "room" for another color. Still.

BTW, this comment isn't specific to NTHs. white/white circle-in-triangle is pretty common. So am I the a-hole? (I mean, I know I am, but specific to this pet peeve).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> This is exactly why I bought a BVB insert, although I haven't followed through on the mod yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never really thought about it much, whether it was about NTH or any other.

If we're diving into this (pun convenient), what's the point of the triangle, at all, if there's a pip, be it raised, or recessed? Again, I never thought about it much, and I think we've used that circle-in-triangle motif mostly due to convention, that is, because that's how it seems everyone else has done it.

With old aluminum bezels, the triangle wasn't lumed, nor were the markers, just the pip. While some of those triangles were red, it seems to me most were just metallic gray (bare metal, most likely).

When we stared with the NTH Subs, all of the designs were either meant to approximate the look of a worn vintage piece, or were meant to be a modern version of what those vintage pieces might have evolved into. With the ones meant to look vintage, we often used two different colors. With the modern ones, they were generally monochromatic.

Why? I suppose we probably looked at the pip/triangle treatment of the Pelagos, liked that, and said, "let's do that."

Once the original Subs designs started coming together, and we knew the bezels would be steel, and how that pip / triangle would be done, we incorporated it into the NTH logo, in the circle that surrounds the NTH monogram. That circle is meant to evoke the counter-clockwise turning of the bezel, coming to rest with pip / triangle at the top.










At the time, I liked the way Aaron designed the pip / triangle. And I liked the way my vendors told us it would be made (flush/recessed, as a single piece, rather than having a raised pip). I thought it was a clever / simple idea then, and I still do.

Most of which doesn't really fully explain why the bezels are often monochromatic, but this might...

When we got the first prototypes, I didn't like the way the "natural" superluminova of the vintage Näckens looked in the pip. It looked fine on the dial and hands, but on the bezels, it was canary yellow, and didn't match the dial and hands at all, unlike the "Old Radium" lume of the Santa Cruz and Oberon, which mostly did match, or at least, more closely matched (close enough).

These were two of the original protos. Note how the pip on the Amphion Vintage more closely matches the lume on the dial/hands than the pip on the Näcken, which, believe it or not, is the same "natural" color seen on that model's dial/hands. Amphion bezel - C3 markers, Old Radium pip (same lume as dial/hands). Näcken bezel - C3 markers, "natural" pip (same lume as dial/hands).










We opted to skip the natural lume on those vintage Näcken versions, and make the bezels monochromatic, with C3 in all the markings. Of the first 8 Subs designs:

Näckens - all had monochromatic inserts, for both the Modern Black and the two vintage colors (blue, and black).
Amphion Modern - red triangle
Amphion Vintage, Oberon, and Santa Cruz - C3 on the minutes and triangle, Old Radium in the pip.
Scorpène - monochromatic, and still the only Subs version that just has the triangle, without the pip, yet with the two "umlauts" on either side of the triangle, as a nod to how the 12 was done on old-school fliegers.










Since then, whenever we consider the lume on the bezel, I'm generally limiting the choices to pure white (BG W9), or C3, since C3 is the brightest lume color, followed by BG W9. We could use a different lume color on the pip, or the triangle, I suppose, but what color, if it isn't also being used on the dial and hands, and generally isn't as bright?

We could fill it in with paint, the way we do with the red triangles, and just skip the lume, but there again, what color? The red triangles are complemented by some red somewhere else in the design, like the model name on the dial.

I suppose we could have done red on the Tikuna, and yellow on the Vanguard, as well as the Todaro and Upholder, but whereas the red looks "right" on the Amphions, because of the tie-in with old school Rolex Subs, I remember what those yellow pips looked like on those original prototypes.

I thought they looked like crap, like nail polish or the sort of paint you'd use on a model airplane. It's too glossy. It looks cheap, IMO.

So, if nothing else, I think the above might help to explain the logic of it, at least for NTH designs.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

New tires! Again 😌… but I REALLY like how these Watch Steward original straps hold a watch to the wrist. So comfy, so light, so keep the watch right where you put it…


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> ...and a (modded) NTH.
> 
> View attachment 16312867
> 
> ...


And where perchance did you obtain that lovely looking pseudo bezel? I like that look. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Red PeeKay said:


> And where perchance did you obtain that lovely looking pseudo bezel? I like that look.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I did not build it - I believe credit goes to @hwa. Case is an older Alpha Explorer 36mm, which came with a 9015, stock, and meant a fairly easy swap? In any case, no simple bezel swap, sorry...


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> I did not build it - I believe credit goes to @hwa. Case is an older Alpha Explorer 36mm, which came with a 9015, stock, and meant a fairly easy swap? In any case, no simple bezel swap, sorry...


My dreams dashed... and so close to Christmas. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I remember kind of scoffing at the use of thread locker after resizing bracelets. " that's never happened to me", I thought to myself. 
Till this morning

Found my DevilRay behind the wardrobe door, eventually, thankfully undamaged. I even managed to find the screw (with my aging eyes). All screws are now locked and my wrist smells of nail polish. 








Oh and I also realised that this had never happened to me because I've never had a bracelet with screws till now . Idiot.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Don't beat yourself up. I still find screws backing out on my bracelets.


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

I've never had much trouble with screws backing out. I don't use threadlocker since it really hasn't been much of an issue--and I can never remember if it's blue or purple that's more appropriate to tiny screws. 

What I have noticed is when resizing you'd better check the screws a day or two later. I have found screws backing out after removing or adding links. Usually one or two re-torques has everything settled down and no issues thereafter. I've also noticed that this happens more often with twin screw pins as opposed to the blind pins with only one screw, which does make sense when you think about it. 

I keep a pretty close eye on the links when they've been disturbed for whatever reason.


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I use this for many fasteners, including bracelet screws.










It happens to be purple but referring to the "proper" threadlocker by color alone is not recommended. Better to use its strength at the very minimum, or more accurately, the number which Henkel makes very easy.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

So over on FB, I tend to scroll fast and stop to read stuff which catches my attention. This means that I'm less worried about _who_ posted something and more interested in the content. Right? This morning, I ran into this:











And I was truly shocked to find that it was not Doc who posted it. 

Must still be in FB jail...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

_Wednesday_, Tori Amos, Album “Scarlet‘s Walk”, circa 2002

Nothing here to fear
I'm just sitting around being foolish when there is work to be done
Just a hang-up call
And the quiet breathing of our Persian we call Cajun on a Wednesday


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

josiahg52 said:


> It happens to be purple but referring to the "proper" threadlocker by color alone is not recommended. Better to use its strength at the very minimum, or more accurately, the number which Henkel makes very easy.


I can't remember the color codes, much less numbers. 

Nevertheless, that's the stuff for tiny screws. Purple. 222. I might remember. Maybe. 

I have blue and red on hand for a number of purposes. Blue for scope mounts and red for things you really don't want unscrewing like muzzle brakes. It isn't stuff I'd use on <2mm screws. We used to use green at work, but I can't remember what the application was, aside from maybe being high temperature and relatively permanent attachment. 

Still, I haven't had any problems with link screws as long as you torque and re-torque after any adjustments.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah, Henkel's core line is pretty standard when it comes to color: 222, 242, 262. Inside of the colors, there are special applications: temperature, oil resistance, material insensitivity. If it was green, it could've been for retention of fitted parts or preassembled fasteners. A 620 or 640. I love Loctite. I have more than a few bottles of different grades and types. I work on guns, take apart knives, work on my own vehicles most of the time so I'm constantly using it and strive to use the best stuff for the job.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> New tires! Again 😌… but I REALLY like how these Watch Steward original straps hold a watch to the wrist. So comfy, so light, so keep the watch right where you put it…
> 
> View attachment 16313073
> 
> ...


That top pic gives me vertigo.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sloan441 said:


> I've never had much trouble with screws backing out. I don't use threadlocker since it really hasn't been much of an issue--and I can never remember if it's blue or purple that's more appropriate to tiny screws.
> 
> What I have noticed is when resizing you'd better check the screws a day or two later. I have found screws backing out after removing or adding links. Usually one or two re-torques has everything settled down and no issues thereafter. I've also noticed that this happens more often with twin screw pins as opposed to the blind pins with only one screw, which does make sense when you think about it.
> 
> I keep a pretty close eye on the links when they've been disturbed for whatever reason.


I use clear nail polish.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> So over on FB, I tend to scroll fast and stop to read stuff which catches my attention. This means that I'm less worried about _who_ posted something and more interested in the content. Right? This morning, I ran into this:
> 
> View attachment 16314385
> 
> ...


More like permanently banned. FB seems to have completely removed any trace that I was ever on there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pics.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More pics.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

^^^
5hit... I think I just peed myself a little bit.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> ^^^
> 5hit... I think I just peed myself a little bit.


I can't think of a nicer compliment.

F'rizzle, though...I haven't added anything to my personal collection since the blue Azores earlier this year, and before that, the Atticus Icarus. Last year, it was just the blue DevilRay. Meanwhile, I've sold off or given away a half dozen pieces in the last year or two, in an effort to keep the collection fairly streamlined. 

Now I'm thinking I may need to re-shuffle the deck a bit, but there isn't much in my case I want to let go. 

Looks like the collection might be growing again...


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm normally anti-date, but this time I will gladly take any of the 4 on oyster.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> I'm normally anti-date, but this time I will gladly take any of the 4 on oyster.


My collection is almost exclusively no-date now, but I might snag a with-date Todaro.

Partly because I like how the date window came out. Partly because @kpjimmy already reserved the no-date photo sample.

Just trying to figure out if it's too redundant with my Scorpène.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Hell yeah! Upholder w/date on BOR, please. Was thinking of no date because usually that means no lume or plot there but I was probably just going to just suck it up this time. Lo and behold, there is a cleverly hidden lume plot right there. Also, it's at 6 o'clock anyway which would satisfy my need for congruity. All my concerns are allayed.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

I'm seriously considering the Upholder w/date...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> That top pic gives me vertigo.


Lol, yeah. I had to take at a weird angle to avoid glare from overhead light. Then it registered in phone upside down, so had to edit and flip. I’m sure that’s got something to do with it.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> I did not build it - I believe credit goes to @hwa. Case is an older Alpha Explorer 36mm, which came with a 9015, stock, and meant a fairly easy swap? In any case, no simple bezel swap, sorry...


Interrupting my prolonged absence with this PSA:

I built it. It’s indeed an old alpha 36, but that case is built for the ETA2824. There’s a custom made polystyrene spacer — 0.25mm thick — between case and dial front to get the 9015 stem to align. It’s off by, what, .03mm, which I call good enough. I do believe that’s the last of my modded NTHs stuffed into ETA cases. Seemed like an accomplishment at the time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I think it's the Todaro with date on BOR for me. All the pictures look fantastic though.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Just trying to figure out if it's too redundant with my Scorpène.


Completely different style - different numbers, less of them.

But I'm thinking it would be even more kickin' with a Scorpène bezel insert...

Besides, you can have more than one Scorpène - it is allowed.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Waitwaitwait...! Did somebody say "lume"? No? Too bad:











And I'm just going to leave this here, like a fresh poop in a grocery store aisle...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHresher @ #NTHursday @ #NTHLumeFTW!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> And I'm just going to leave this here, like a fresh poop in a grocery store aisle...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16316783


When you get it, you'll get it. I will not poison minds beyond the picture...


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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Wow, that Upholder looks great! Just take my money!!



docvail said:


> More pics.
> 
> View attachment 16314941
> View attachment 16314942
> ...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Almost forgot it was Thursday.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> More pics.
> 
> View attachment 16314941
> View attachment 16314942
> ...


Interestingly different. Maybe a yellow triangle to make the white pip stand out and complement the second hand and print?
Either way, me likee.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

In tune with Thursday, but a question for you Doc, will the BoR bracelet on my Champagne dial Antilles fit this watch? I ask, because I prefer the adjustable facet of the BoR bracelet because with my heart and circulatory issues that clasp works better for me as the daily edema onslaught means that I have to adjust my bracelet daily. Or can I just change the clasp?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Boots said:


> In tune with Thursday, but a question for you Doc, will the BoR bracelet on my Champagne dial Antilles fit this watch? I ask, because I prefer the adjustable facet of the BoR bracelet because with my heart and circulatory issues that clasp works better for me as the daily edema onslaught means that I have to adjust my bracelet daily. Or can I just change the clasp?
> 
> View attachment 16317104


Just change the clasp, or replace the existing clasp with an aftermarket piece. The end-links are not compatible, such that the v.1 Tropics bracelet will fit the v.2 case, or vice-versa. We needed to make some very small tweaks to the case / lugs from v.1 to v.2.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

docvail said:


> Just change the clasp, or replace the existing clasp with an aftermarket piece. The end-links are not compatible, such that the v.1 Tropics bracelet will fit the v.2 case, or vice-versa. We needed to make some very small tweaks to the case / lugs from v.1 to v.2.


Thanks Doc, you saved me from some frustration and cussing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Folks, just FYI...

The Santa Cruz is now sold out worldwide. The only piece available is a Nearly New piece on the NTH site.

It also appears the v.2 Barracuda Vintage Black no-date is also sold out. The last 1 or 2 of the with-date can be found at Serious Watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Folks - don't know if I'll get a chance to say it, so I'll say it now...

I appreciate all the peeps who visit this thread to hang out, participate in shenanigans, etc, all the pics you post, and the general support of my business. Because, without that support, there wouldn't be a business.

Here's wishing all of you and your families the merriest of Christmases.

Now I gotta go eat dinner, wrap gifts, and pretend to enjoy the festivities like a normal person.

I'm out.

PEACE!


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The Devil Ray is seriously growing on me. Not that I ever thought it wasn't a looker, I just convinced myself I didn't want it. I was going to say the orange, turquoise, and blue were in stock at NTH but no longer. They were when I looked earlier today. Probably do the orange or turquoise. Only have one orange watch and turquoise would be a departure.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> The Devil Ray is seriously growing on me. Not that I ever thought it wasn't a looker, I just convinced myself I didn't want it. I was going to say the orange, turquoise, and blue were in stock at NTH but no longer. They were when I looked earlier today. Probably do the orange or turquoise. Only have one orange watch and turquoise would be a departure.


Check Watch Gauge, Serious, or our other retailers.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Check Watch Gauge, Serious, or our other retailers.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I did. Watch Gauge has those three colors with and without date.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> When you get it, you'll get it. I will not poison minds beyond the picture...
> 
> View attachment 16316825


OK, I have to admit, I had no freaking idea what you were talking about with that post. And then I got it. That is all.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> OK, I have to admit, I had no freaking idea what you were talking about with that post. And then I got it. That is all.


Sorry still don't get it. I used to have one of these on my Datsun 510 because cup holders weren't a thing. The closest thing was stuffing drinks between the seat and parking break lever.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

C-Upholder.......

First thing that crossed my mind when I saw the photos.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Harry Belafonte


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

^Gurthang54 said:


> C-Upholder.......
> 
> First thing that crossed my mind when I saw the photos.


Ooooh...damn I'm daft

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> Just change the clasp, or replace the existing clasp with an aftermarket piece. The end-links are not compatible, such that the v.1 Tropics bracelet will fit the v.2 case, or vice-versa. We needed to make some very small tweaks to the case / lugs from v.1 to v.2.


How would I know if my Antilles is v1 or v2?


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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

^Gurthang54 said:


> C-Upholder.......
> 
> First thing that crossed my mind when I saw the photos.


What has been seen, can’t be unseen. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> How would I know if my Antilles is v1 or v2?


If you don't know, it's likely a v.2.

The v.1's were produced and sold out in 2017.


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

kpjimmy said:


> Ooooh...damn I'm daft
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


So, maybe a Starbucks edition w/ brown dial/insert and C3 lume?










Next hint: 

Harry Belafonte on the morning show


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

I wish you a Merry Christmas 
I wish you a Merry Christmas 
I wish you a Merry Christmas 
So BUY A NEW WATCH!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Just came in to say the Upholder has my eye. Opened the email and thought "I don't need another watch, I knew not to open this!"


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Merry Christmas to you all here in the land of Nth from way down here in the land Downunder...

It's Christmas day here... I'm busy fighting off all the lethal spiders the size of your head, the multitude of venomous snakes crawling out of every nook and cranny and dodging the drop bears try to turn me into a tasty meal! 

Wishing you all a wonderful day tomorrow... it's a beautiful 26 degrees C with blue skies down here... Will go out for a ride later

All the best and happy holidays

Fortunately I have my Tikuna shield of steel to protect me! 
















Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Merry Christmas to you all here in the land of Nth from way down here in the land Downunder...
> 
> It's Christmas day here... I'm busy fighting off all the lethal spiders the size of your head, the multitude of venomous snakes crawling out of every nook and cranny and dodging the drop bears try to turn me into a tasty meal!
> 
> ...


Watch out for those wild drop bears!


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## ZenInk315 (Jun 26, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> Watch out for those wild drop bears!


That’s what I’m now going to call sudden watch releases I’m dangerously tempted by.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Merry Christmas to you all here in the land of Nth from way down here in the land Downunder...
> 
> It's Christmas day here... I'm busy fighting off all the lethal spiders the size of your head, the multitude of venomous snakes crawling out of every nook and cranny and dodging the drop bears try to turn me into a tasty meal!
> 
> ...


Merry Christmas to you mate. Just finished watching the last episode of the year of Might Car Mods, so now I have my double dose of Aussie yule time goodness. Cheers.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

ashoat said:


> That’s what I’m now going to call sudden watch releases I’m dangerously tempted by.


Hmmmm perhaps a departure from Doc's standard naming nomenclature....

The next release of a 42mm by Nth... the Drop Bear..

And for those of you still puzzled by what we are talking about...









Drop Bear


This urban legend focuses on bush walkers having been known to be 'dropped on' by drop bears, resulting in injury including mainly lacerations and occasionally bites.




australian.museum





I always wear a reinforced cycling helmet when walking in the bush because of these pests..









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hmmmm perhaps a departure from Doc's standard naming nomenclature....
> 
> The next release of a 42mm by Nth... the Drop Bear..
> 
> ...


Count me in for a Drop Bear LE.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hmmmm perhaps a departure from Doc's standard naming nomenclature....
> 
> The next release of a 42mm by Nth... the Drop Bear..
> 
> ...


JV with SKrishnan?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Current West Texas temperature = 81 degrees. Merry Christma!


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Red PeeKay said:


> Merry Christmas to you all here in the land of Nth from way down here in the land Downunder...
> 
> It's Christmas day here... I'm busy fighting off all the lethal spiders the size of your head, the multitude of venomous snakes crawling out of every nook and cranny and dodging the drop bears try to turn me into a tasty meal!
> 
> ...


44 Celsius in Perth today, staying indoors watching the 3rd Cricket Test match.


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## mizzoutiger (Jan 6, 2015)

Received this beautiful Antilles as a Christmas present from my lovely wife. While it is obvious that she has suspect taste in men, she certainly has incredible taste in watches. Hope everyone is having a happy and safe holiday season!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

VB Nacken
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## LH357Sig (May 9, 2021)

Do NTH models, like the Nacken, come back in stock or do we have to go the used route?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LH357Sig said:


> Do NTH models, like the Nacken, come back in stock or do we have to go the used route?


Some do. Many / most don't, or if they do, it's 2-3 years between productions.

We've got more of the v.2 Nacken Modern Blue and v.2 Barracuda Vintage Black in production now, hopefully with a release date in Q1 of next year.

Other than those two, I wouldn't expect to see any recent models get re-released any time soon.

The used route isn't a bad route, FWIW. The warranty is transferable, without any documentation needed.


----------



## LH357Sig (May 9, 2021)

docvail said:


> Some do. Many / most don't, or if they do, it's 2-3 years between productions.
> 
> We've got more of the v.2 Nacken Modern Blue and v.2 Barracuda Vintage Black in production now, hopefully with a release date in Q1 of next year.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Sir. The v2 Nacken Modern Blue is the one I'm after.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LH357Sig said:


> Thank you, Sir. The v2 Nacken Modern Blue is the one I'm after.


Best of luck. Hope you get one.

The last release was July of this year. I think the 50 Modern Blues were sold out in <2 months. For the next release, we're making 75 available - 50 no-dates, 25 with-date. That might be it for a while. We'll see.

I doubt our retailers will leave me with any to sell on the NTH site. If you're not already signed up to receive the NTH newsletter, you might want to subscribe.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Such lovely weather in the UK recently. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> Such lovely weather in the UK recently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's looks like a balmy summers day... thought it was supposed to be winter over there? 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Meanwhile, in the States, I woke up to another six inches of snow on top of whatever we got on Saturday and Sunday. Good times.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> Such lovely weather in the UK recently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I don’t think it’s so bad today 🤗


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> Meanwhile, in the States, I woke up to another six inches of snow on top of whatever we got on Saturday and Sunday. Good times.


Send a bit of that cold down here. This is just stupid for December…











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#2KrownTuesday <clap. clap. clap clap clap>
#2KrownTuesday <clap. clap. clap clap clap> 
#2KrownTuesday <clap. clap. clap clap clap>
#2KrownTuesday <clap. clap. clap clap clap>


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

rpm1974 said:


> Send a bit of that cold down here. This is just stupid for December…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually got above freezing. Should be a warmer week it looks like. Nights are still quite cold.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

rpm1974 said:


> Send a bit of that cold down here. This is just stupid for December…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here’s ours…we get a couple of winter days in upcoming weekend, then looks like back to abnormally high temperatures. Of course don’t want a month of teens and subzeros like last February! Before anyone screams climate change, these current hot temperatures only beat 1955 on a few days in December, so it’s been hot before…and probably long before that…planet weather cycles and all that…

…and a watch for on topic (or tropic, as the case may be)!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

…and now it’s Wednesday so here’s another!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just out of curiosity, if I asked people who makes more watches in a year, Swatch Group, or Seiko, who would you say?

Edit - this isn't a trick question. I'm not setting anyone up for anything.

The FHS reports on industry figures, to include various countries' exports every year, and yet, they conveniently leave Japan out of those reports.

I'm just now looking at a "Swiss Watch Industry Report" someone did, and someone else sent to my marketing guy, who in turn sent it to me. The guy who wrote it, Pierre-Yves Donzé (what a surprise, French name), makes the case that Swatch is the largest, with Seiko, Citizen and Casio way down the list, but he's basing that on revenue figures, not unit volume (actual number of watches, as opposed to the aggregate value of watch exports or watches sold).

Only looking at revenue, Swatch has about a 5.7 to 1 advantage over Seiko, but I wonder if Seiko might not actually make more watches, albeit with a much lower average price than what Swatch sells.

Somewhat surprising (at least to me), according to the report, Citizen actually has slightly more revenue than Seiko. 

For someone (like me) who's interested in understanding the industry at a macro level, there is some value in understanding how revenue is distributed, but I think revenue figures have a way of obscuring the whole picture, which is easier to see if you also look at unit volume.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Just out of curiosity, if I asked people who makes more watches in a year, Swatch Group, or Seiko, who would you say?


Without research. Imma say Seiko.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Without research. Imma say Seiko.


With research, albeit research that doesn't really give me the answer, I'd say the same thing.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> With research, albeit research that doesn't really give me the answer, I'd say the same thing.


On volume I would lean towards Seiko and Citizen, with Casio chasing closely. I would also be interested in the profit margins to understand where they all actually sit in reality. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> On volume I would lean towards Seiko and Citizen, with Casio chasing closely. I would also be interested in the profit margins to understand where they all actually sit in reality.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In theory, since Swatch, Seiko and Citizen are all publicly traded, we could figure it out by digging into their required public disclosures.

I don't feel like it, but if you or anyone else is feeling froggy, go on and jump then.

What I find interesting, and often amusing, is the positive spin analysts and reporters tend to put on the Swiss numbers, in order to reinforce the perception that the Swiss dominate the industry. Case in point:










Well, perhaps in terms of gross sales revenue, they do, but as I said, unit volume is also a key metric, as is profitability.

I mean, "uncontested domination"? Really? Is that what this is?

(From the FHS 2020 annual report):










Back in 2018, A Blog to Watch featured analysis Morgan Stanley did on the big Swiss luxury conglomerates, and it wasn't pretty. They were sitting on an obscene amount of finished goods and work-in-progress inventory. Instead of having 90 days of inventory on hand, the big firms, led by Swatch, had multiple years' worth of inventory.










Which is why I'm always interested in seeing more numbers, for greater context. I would bet that despite their lower overall revenue, Seiko and Citizen are healthier businesses overall, and very likely sell more units, which I'd think would make for a more predictable and sustainable business.

This is what I find amazing about the Swiss - even in a year like 2020, which was a bloodbath by any measure, it looks like they still raised prices on all but their most expensive watches, even as they were selling fewer units!










I mean...in what business management course did they teach, "hey, when your customers are getting pounded economically, and your sales are down (again)...raise prices"?

Getting back to profitability - in theory, if all other things stay the same, but your business can generate more revenue out of fewer unit sales (by raising prices), that's usually a good thing. But I don't think that holds true if your unit sales volume is always declining, which I think is a sign of a shrinking customer base.

And I wonder if "all other things" did in fact stay the same. Did the Swiss not have any cost increases with which to contend, either in labor, raw materials, shipping, energy, or regulatory compliance?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I just think of how many places sell Seiko, Citizen, Casio watches and how far I have to drive to see a Rolex, Omega, Tudor in person. I know there's other Swiss and Swatch brands and sometimes those other brands are sold side by side to the Japanese brands but they're so ubiquitous.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I just think of how many places sell Seiko, Citizen, Casio watches and how far I have to drive to see a Rolex, Omega, Tudor in person. I know there's other Swiss and Swatch brands and sometimes those other brands are sold side by side to the Japanese brands but they're so ubiquitous.


I suppose my larger point is, was, and has long been - how SHOULD we (or the industry) measure those things which would seem to matter?

(These are mostly rhetorical questions I occasionally ask, because the industry stubbornly refuses to answer, and watch geeks just tend to regurgitate what the industry wants them to know.)

I understand gross revenue and net profits are important. Why do we only see gross revenue reported, but not net profits?

Okay, that's the top-line number, and is the easiest to find, report, and understand. Fair enough. But without profits, revenue is meaningless.

And, with something like watches, just like with cars, I think unit volume is a vital metric. If auto-makers suddenly reported a big spike in revenue, yet car lots were over-flowing with unsold cars, and most people were struggling to afford one, I'd think we'd want to take a closer look at just what is going on.

In that scenario, if revenues are up, yet inventory turnover is slow, and / or if unit sales are down, it's not necessarily a good thing for profitability. It doesn't bode well for the health of the business.

I've been looking at the FHS reports for years, all the way back to 2012, when the oldest figures were from 2010, so...it ain't like I haven't been trying to figure it all out. It boggles my mind that the Swiss seem to defy the most basic laws of business economics, year after year, without a big implosion happening.

At least with the Japanese companies, they seem to act more rationally, for the most part.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Switching topics randomly... 
What's your take on the LJP/Miyota thread over in the public forum, Doc? I know you're never gonna use 'em. But it hilariously reinforces the it's better "cuz swiss" mentality a lot of folks have. 
Love hearing an insiders take.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'd actually be super surprised to find that Casio did not move the most watches...


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> I suppose my larger point is, was, and has long been - how SHOULD we (or the industry) measure those things which would seem to matter?
> 
> (These are mostly rhetorical questions I occasionally ask, because the industry stubbornly refuses to answer, and watch geeks just tend to regurgitate what the industry wants them to know.)
> 
> ...


I’m not sure net profits would be particularly meaningful, as it would include costs unrelated to production and sale of watches. Perhaps revenue net of any sales discounts or gross margin would be more meaningful when comparing across companies.

And yeah, units sold would also be very helpful to get the average selling price per unit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stubbadub (Dec 3, 2021)

caktaylor said:


> I’m not sure net profits would be particularly meaningful, as it would include costs unrelated to production and sale of watches. Perhaps revenue net of any sales discounts or gross margin would be more meaningful when comparing across companies.
> 
> And yeah, units sold would also be very helpful to get the average selling price per unit.
> 
> ...


Sure net profits may be unrelated to production of watches, but not the sale of watches. At the end of the day, the net profits are what keeps the industry afloat, and lack of will sink it

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Switching topics randomly...
> What's your take on the LJP/Miyota thread over in the public forum, Doc? I know you're never gonna use 'em. But it hilariously reinforces the it's better "cuz swiss" mentality a lot of folks have.
> Love hearing an insiders take.


Haven't seen it. Is there a synopsis, or do I have to go read it?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

caktaylor said:


> I’m not sure net profits would be particularly meaningful, as it would include costs unrelated to production and sale of watches. Perhaps revenue net of any sales discounts or gross margin would be more meaningful when comparing across companies.
> 
> And yeah, units sold would also be very helpful to get the average selling price per unit.
> 
> ...


I think net profits are meaningful. In theory, anything the business spends money on, so it can do what it does is related to, erm....what it does. 

I'm open to accepting that there may occasionally be large one-time expenses which hurt profits in one year, but if a business is constantly losing money, or conversely, always booking large profits, that would demonstrate something fundamentally wrong or fundamentally right with what they were doing.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Haven't seen it. Is there a synopsis, or do I have to go read it?


It all started about AnOrdain announcing it will now be using the G100 in place of the Sw200 and upping cost by about $350. LJP is owned by Citizen/Miyota. Synopsis. The G100 is a "Swiss" 9015.

LJP








Miyota








LJP








Miyota









The LJP has a few upgrades to go with its "swissness".


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## Chicawolverina (Jul 4, 2009)

Omegafanboy said:


> An NTH branded version of this style of clasp could work with rubber or leather and would really improve the look over a standard tang buckle. It give that on the fly adjustment and looks good too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is sold by what company, is this from NHT?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

In any case, even though NTH will not be setting the world on fire with total sales or watches sold, it's still #NTHursday


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHursday…and a consecutive day for the Swiftsure! …and still like wearing air on the elastic strap!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> It all started about AnOrdain announcing it will now be using the G100 in place of the Sw200 and upping cost by about $350. LJP is owned by Citizen/Miyota. Synopsis. The G100 is a "Swiss" 9015.
> 
> LJP
> View attachment 16330831
> ...


So people are excited about a Swiss movement with Japanese reliability?

Or would I be misreading the room?

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chicawolverina said:


> This is sold by what company, is this from NHT?


No, it's not from NTH.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Heyyyy...yooooo! Im in the NTH Newsletter!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> So people are excited about a Swiss movement with Japanese reliability?
> 
> Or would I be misreading the room?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


The whole discussion and comparison seemed to quickly be dropped in favor of discussing lacquer vs grand feu enamel and which outfits do which. 

I was more intrigued at the fact that AnOrdain was upping their costs by $350 because they're dropping a gussied up Miyota in their watches. Dont get me wrong, I love the 9xxx. 

The whole thing is just confirmation that most strictly adhere to the "it's better cuz swiss" mentality.


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## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

New (to me) Tikuna next to my Azores v1


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Chicawolverina said:


> This is sold by what company, is this from NHT?


You can find these on Aliexpress or Amazon for around £15-20. There are lots of variations available out there if you look.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I always thought these looked nice. Just can't find straps that work so I've never ordered one.






Premium deployant clasps in stainless steel


The best quality and values in premium deployant clasps



www.mywatchmaker.net


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> The whole discussion and comparison seemed to quickly be dropped in favor of discussing lacquer vs grand feu enamel and which outfits do which.
> 
> I was more intrigued at the fact that AnOrdain was upping their costs by $350 because they're dropping a gussied up Miyota in their watches. Dont get me wrong, I love the 9xxx.
> 
> The whole thing is just confirmation that most strictly adhere to the "it's better cuz swiss" mentality.


So....I have no idea what AnOrdain's costs are, or what their markup is, and I wouldn't discuss that info if I did know.

But, using my own markups, if I increased the price of the NTH Subs by $350, that would mean the Swiss version of the movement costs more than double what the Japanese version costs us.

I don't know if that's right. It might be, especially if there's something different about the movement, which would add to the cost. I would hope it's something more than simply cosmetic, and something more than the fact that it's been magically transmogrified into being "Swiss".

There must be something more than meets the eye, since we know the Swiss version is thicker (same dimensions as an ETA 2824-2 clone).

If, let's say, the movement performs better in some way (I think I saw that it has a longer PR - 68 hours, which is nice, if mostly useless for most WIS), that would be something I would think brands could "hang their hat on".

I've discussed this before, but here it is again - I've talked to watchmaker Dan about what it would take if we wanted to _guarantee_ a level of accuracy equivalent to COSC standards for all our Miyota movements, which I know is possible. We've opted not to do it, because the added cost of getting that level of accuracy would easily double what we're paying for movements.

Looking at the review of the movement by the Naked Watchmaker, it does appear that they're guaranteeing greater accuracy - +/- 12 s/d for the standard grade, and +/- 7 s/d for the "soigné" (translated from the French = "cared for"?!?!) version, compared to the Miyota spec of -10 to +30.

The spec also shows lower posture variance (30s/d and 20 s/d, respectively, compared to the 9015 spec of 40 s/d), and isochronism of 20s/d (standard) or 15 s/d (cared for), compared to the 9015 spec, which reads (I $hlt you not): "a maximum of several ten seconds", which I read as "under 1 minute/day".

The thing about the 9015 (and from what I've seen, all Japanese movements), is that their specs are always pretty conservative. All the 9015's Dan's tested have had very low posture variance and isochronism, and we're typically seeing daily rates in the 0 to +10 s/d range, albeit, that's after Dan regulates about 5% of the watches we get from our supplier, the other 95% of which run within -5 to +15 s/d when we get them (typically well within that range).

I think people might be looking at it the wrong way. I'm all in favor of the Swiss using gussied up Japanese movements. They say the Soprod A10 was just a re-badged Seiko 4L, and no one is poo-pooing Soprod, are they?

A joint venture seems like it would help the Swiss, by way of having better movements (since the LJP seems to be better than the 2824-2, at least on paper), and it would help the Japanese, if it serves to level the playing field, in terms of market perceptions. How bad could a non-Swiss movement be, if the best "entry-level" Swiss movements aren't really all that Swiss?


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> The whole discussion and comparison seemed to quickly be dropped in favor of discussing lacquer vs grand feu enamel and which outfits do which.
> 
> I was more intrigued at the fact that AnOrdain was upping their costs by $350 because they're dropping a gussied up Miyota in their watches. Dont get me wrong, I love the 9xxx.
> 
> The whole thing is just confirmation that most strictly adhere to the "it's better cuz swiss" mentality.


I just read the thread. 

Had about as much argle-bargle as I expected, of the same sort.

End of the day, my view...

1. More choices in movements is a good thing.

2. If AnOrdains get to be more expensive than they ought to be, the market will let them know.

3. It doesn't appear that logic and reasoning will become standard practice among WIS any time soon. 

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents (and any ladies lurking about) - Happy New Year.

If you're out celebrating, watch your consumption, don't mix intoxicants and vehicle operation, and return home safely.

What a long, strange trip the last two years have been. I'm sure it's taken its toll on many, if not all of us. Here's hoping 2022 brings better times for everyone.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Anordain can't keep up with demand. Their last offering sold out in minutes (ask me how I know), and now they're struggling to find a sales model that doesn't piss off 90% of their customers. So they SHOULD be raising their prices. Their choke point is their hand-made enamel dials, not movements. IMO, the $350 increase is mostly due to the demand issue, but the switch to the LJP movement gives them a fig-leaf reason for the price rise.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> I suppose my larger point is, was, and has long been - how SHOULD we (or the industry) measure those things which would seem to matter?
> 
> (These are mostly rhetorical questions I occasionally ask, because the industry stubbornly refuses to answer, and watch geeks just tend to regurgitate what the industry wants them to know.)
> 
> ...


Leaving out the Japanese market, so that counts for a big chunk of Seiko $ Citizen sales surely.
And what about movements?

This is like saying BMW sell more cars than Honda, ok maybe but Honda sell a sh!tload more engines than just go into their own cars


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

To be honest on the whole swiss thing, I've had one Swiss watch (not a large sample size I know), a handful of Seikos, a Steinhart (German/Swiss) and some NTH watches. The Swiss one was only one I had to trouble the repair center with.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Anordain can't keep up with demand. Their last offering sold out in minutes (ask me how I know), and now they're struggling to find a sales model that doesn't piss off 90% of their customers. So they SHOULD be raising their prices. Their choke point is their hand-made enamel dials, not movements. IMO, the $350 increase is mostly due to the demand issue, but the switch to the LJP movement gives them a fig-leaf reason for the price rise.


I don't know much if anything about AnOrdain.

But any business which can't keep up with demand should raise its prices, and I don't think they necessarily owe the market an explanation for why.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Leaving out the Japanese market, so that counts for a big chunk of Seiko $ Citizen sales surely.
> And what about movements?
> 
> This is like saying BMW sell more cars than Honda, ok maybe but Honda sell a sh!tload more engines than just go into their own cars


I may be misunderstanding you, or you may have misunderstood me.

The FHS figures leave out any mention of what comes from Japan, as in, what their Japanese competitors are doing / making, and exporting to the world (or what the Japanese sell within Japan).

I think what the Japanese are doing / making is significant enough that it shouldn't be ignored if we want a big-picture view of the industry as a whole.

Your comment, as I read it, pertains to the Japanese market, as in, watches sold in Japan. I never noticed it before, but whereas the FHS leaves out any mention of watches coming FROM Japan, they include watches exported from Switzerland TO Japan.

So...yeah, if that raises an eyebrow for you, it does for me, too. It's a bit disingenuous to pretend Japan doesn't exist when looking at watch exports from various countries, but including Japan when you discuss your exports to various countries.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> To be honest on the whole swiss thing, I've had one Swiss watch (not a large sample size I know), a handful of Seikos, a Steinhart (German/Swiss) and some NTH watches. The Swiss one was only one I had to trouble the repair center with.


Somewhere on this forum is a statistician just absolutely losing his $hlt right now...


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## Watchy Watch (Dec 31, 2021)

I just joined the forum, but noticed this thread. I own the Nazario Ghost, which I believe is quite rare. It is at the top of the price band for such a watch, but very well made.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Watchy Watch said:


> I just joined the forum, but noticed this thread. I own the Nazario Ghost, which I believe is quite rare. It is at the top of the price band for such a watch, but very well made.
> View attachment 16334105


Welcome to the forums and this thread. Hope you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

The Ghost you have is one of 50 we made. Maybe not all that rare for NTH, but rare compared to the typical production numbers for most watches.

Don't even get me started on the wing-nuts who swap out the cases and put the innards into puny, 36mm girly-wrist explorer cases. I know there's at least one Ghost that was done to, floating around here somewhere...

BOO!

Scary.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> Somewhere on this forum is a statistician just absolutely losing his $hlt right now...


I am a statistician 😆


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> I am a statistician 😆


Then you know the difference between an extroverted statistician, and an introverted one.

The introvert looks at his shoes when you're talking.

The extrovert looks at your shoes.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> I may be misunderstanding you, or you may have misunderstood me.
> 
> The FHS figures leave out any mention of what comes from Japan, as in, what their Japanese competitors are doing / making, and exporting to the world (or what the Japanese sell within Japan).
> 
> ...


Nope probably my misunderstanding, I should read properly before commenting. Same goes when answering a question my wife just asked me and I wasn't listening 🤣


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> Then you know the difference between an extroverted statistician, and an introverted one.
> 
> The introvert looks at his shoes when you're talking.
> 
> The extrovert looks at your shoes.


OK, I work in the field of statistics and performance analysis, but the real statisticians are way branier than me. Defo more nerdier


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I love this thread.

Happy New Year. All y'all.


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Happy New Year!

Big thank you to all that contributed to this thread over the last 12 months, I rarely get to post but have thoroughly enjoyed following the thread when the time allows.

From all the new watches that came and left the collection in the year 2021 this one is the favourite-









The shade of green to the lume is just the bees knees, that and the related Covid-19 shipping dramas involved in getting it (I am sure many can relate) makes this a special piece to the collection that will stay for long time.

Everyone stay safe and have a fantastic 2022. 

Doc, keep us in the loop on what you plan to do with those Devilray cases for 2022.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> The Ghost you have is one of 50 we made. Maybe not all that rare for NTH, but rare compared to the typical production numbers for most watches.
> 
> Don't even get me started on the wing-nuts who swap out the cases and put the innards into puny, 36mm girly-wrist explorer cases. I know there's at least one Ghost that was done to, floating around here somewhere...
> 
> ...


It’s a 38mm, thank you very much! 

But also… yeah, this dial and handset is the greatest.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Watchy Watch said:


> I just joined the forum, but noticed this thread. I own the Nazario Ghost, which I believe is quite rare. It is at the top of the price band for such a watch, but very well made.
> View attachment 16334105





docvail said:


> Welcome to the forums and this thread. Hope you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.
> 
> The Ghost you have is one of 50 we made. Maybe not all that rare for NTH, but rare compared to the typical production numbers for most watches.
> 
> ...


Did someone say rare?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Happy New Year NTH crew!

Plans for '22? Another NTH and my first Atticus!


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## bruins443 (Jul 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> As such, I'd be very curious to know how accurate various movements are over their entire power reserve, from full-wind down to dead stop.


METAS measures at full and 33% PR.


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A Very Happy New Year to all of you here on the bestest and most entertaining thread on WUS, long may it continue...............

Cheerz,

Alan


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

bruins443 said:


> METAS measures at full and 33% PR.


Interestingly my vostok movement really starts to lose time as it nears depletion... much more noticeably so than my Miyota movements. It seems that not all movements are created equal. 

At full wind it's actually quite accurate. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Did someone say rare?
> View attachment 16334813


Psh…


















-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

rpm1974 said:


> Psh…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheater


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bruins443 said:


> METAS measures at full and 33% PR.


I'd never heard of METAS. So, I just looked it up...

Once again, it sounds like a case of the Swiss keeping their club exclusively Swiss, and gaming their own processes...

_"The rules of Master Chronometer certification stipulate that only Swiss-Made watches can apply, and the movement must already have been certified by the COSC, the country’s official chronometer testing institute. Only then can it begin the equivalent of an army assault course: exposure to a magnetic force of 15,000 gauss - equivalent to an MRI scanner -, immersion in water and exposure to variations in temperature, while maintaining chronometric precision of 0 to +5 seconds, measured in six positions with a power reserve of 100% and 33%."_​
So...only "Swiss-Made" watches can apply, which keeps them from having to compete against the best from Germany, Japan, or (gasp!) China.

The point I was making earlier was that I'd like to see a test over the entire range of power reserve, not just 100%, or some other arbitrary point, such as 33%, which seems like it could open the door to gamesmanship with the manufacturer's stated PR spec.

Like, a manufacturer could state the PR is 72 hours, when the movement will really run for 80. If they test accuracy after 48 hours, when there would be 33% of the PR spec left, there's actually more than 33% of the actual PR.

Why not just do Observatory Chronometer testing, which is open to all?

Answer - because they stopped competing with the Japanese after Seiko cleaned house against the Swiss in 1967.









Seiko And The Observatory Chronometer Trials


The biggest horological events in the watchmaking industry. Check out Seiko and the observatory chronometer trials.




www.timesticking.com













In-Depth: Seiko’s Legendary History in Observatory Chronometer Trials | SJX Watches


And the Grand Seiko Astronomical Observatory Chronometer.




watchesbysjx.com


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Happy New Year everyone. NTH aside, one of my favorites…and a glimpse of me! p.s. Pretty sure this isn’t COSC approved! …but it is hella accurate!


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## bruins443 (Jul 2, 2019)

Chris, I have been reading a lot of your posts, very informative. I learned a lot about the industry. 



docvail said:


> Just out of curiosity, if I asked people who makes more watches in a year, Swatch Group, or Seiko, who would you say?


My bet would be Casio, they probably sell a ton of GShocks in 3rd world countries where practicality and cost rule.

Did you see this breakdown of the Swiss Industry numbers? I found it very informative and it would be amazing to have German, Japanese and Chinese data in this as well. Which probably some hedge fund or even some of the companies have somewhere but would never publish.


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## bruins443 (Jul 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> So...only "Swiss-Made" watches can apply, which keeps them from having to compete against the best from Germany, Japan, or (gasp!) China.


I did not know this about METAS, disappointing. It feels like some of the industry titans should sponsor and establish a new standard. Put an office in London, dress up with a fancy name and open for all. Everything costs money though.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

All right, Doc, it's January. What week should we start paying the most attention to the NTH and retailer's websites? You know what we want. What can we expect for Q2 FY22? Or Q1 '22?

Also, I absolutely adore the 2K1 case. I personally don't think there's anything to gain by copying any of the Sub designs and I don't want that. Is there a future for the 2K1?


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Well, with an ambient temperature of 19 (nineteen) and a windchill of 7 (seven), just seemed this was a safer bet than any of my others,,,


----------



## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Been wearing my Swiftsure on a tan Horween. I know there will be naysayers about dive watches on leather, but I like to change it up


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I don't know much if anything about AnOrdain.
> 
> But any business which can't keep up with demand should raise its prices, and I don't think they necessarily owe the market an explanation for why.


"We raised prices because y'all were buying them too fast and whinging about not being able to get one."

WIS: They used to be a good value, but now they are overpriced.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Watchy Watch said:


> I just joined the forum, but noticed this thread. I own the Nazario Ghost, which I believe is quite rare. It is at the top of the price band for such a watch, but very well made.
> View attachment 16334105


Joined 3 days ago
40 posts
Banned

That was quick...



docvail said:


> .
> Don't even get me started on the wing-nuts who swap out the cases and put the innards into puny, 36mm girly-wrist explorer cases. I know there's at least one Ghost that was done to, floating around here somewhere...





















But hey, I just bought it this way...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Want to Ghost this cold day in TX. Yes it can go below freezing here 























Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

No kidding on the freezing. After yesterday’s arctic blast, it’s currently a balmy 39 degrees and climbing!


----------



## Ubermanx (Jan 18, 2010)

Welp,

I finally did it. After owning a plethora of Lew & Huey watches I made the jump and my first NTH is on the way. Tracking is saying my NTH Santa Cruz will be hitting the Great White North in a day or two.

I suspect it will replace my dead Riccardo as the "Most Worn Watch" in my collection.

~ Marty


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Joined 3 days ago
> 40 posts
> Banned
> 
> That was quick...


Search the forum for user "INAMINUTE".

Just a hunch...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ubermanx said:


> Welp,
> 
> I finally did it. After owning a plethora of Lew & Huey watches I made the jump and my first NTH is on the way. Tracking is saying my NTH Santa Cruz will be hitting the Great White North in a day or two.
> 
> ...


Marty???

Bro, welcome back to the forums. Seems like a dog's age since you been here.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> "We raised prices because y'all were buying them too fast and whinging about not being able to get one."
> 
> WIS: They used to be a good value, but now they are overpriced.
> 
> View attachment 16339292


You joke, but it's exactly what I've experienced.

When we couldn't keep anything in stock, because we were selling watches faster than we could produce them, we'd get complaints from guys saying we didn't know how to run a business. I actually got messages from guys saying they'd never buy anything from NTH, because...actually, I'm trying to make sense of what it was.

A - because we were always sold out?

B - because we never had what they wanted?

C - because we did something wrong, something not quite explained, which led to them wanting our product, but then simultaneously NOT wanting our product, when they realized we did whatever it was that we did in the first place?

I mean...I think A and B are somewhat circular. If we're always sold out, or never have what you want, then obviously, you won't ever buy anything from us, because you can't, unless we're somehow "sold out" / "don't have what you want" yet simultaneously we're not / we do, which I think creates some sort of Schrödinger's shopping dilemma of pre-purchase existential quantum-physics paradox.

To buy, or not to buy, something which may or may not exist and may or may not be available, at some price which may be too high or too low, which you may or may not want, that is the question...

It was nice, for a while, to be able to tell guys who said our watches were over-priced that we were sold out, which seemed like obvious proof that if anything, they were under-priced.

But, of course, we raised prices, until we found the equilibrium point, the point at which sales and production were more or less balanced.

So, now we can't say the watches are under-priced, because we're not always sold out, which of course brings back the guys saying they're over-priced.

Maybe, but...at least now you can buy one. No lotteries. No wait lists. No mad dash to the checkout finish line. Just a pleasant stroll from website entry to checkout.

WIS: "Your website sucks. I couldn't find what what I found."

Yes, that seems to be the new complaint from WISchrödingers - the simultaneous ability and inability to locate something on our website, be it the contact page, or a watch for sale, or the specs for that watch. 

Nothing is where it should be, apparently. Whatever it is you're looking for, it's going to be hard to find, so much so that even after you find it, the difficulty will convince you that you really didn't, and therefore it must be moved, or was already moved, before or after you found it, even though you didn't.

I can't imagine the difficulty involved in living in two equally-possible realities simultaneously.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> You joke, but it's exactly what I've experienced.
> 
> When we couldn't keep anything in stock, because we were selling watches faster than we could produce them, we'd get complaints from guys saying we didn't know how to run a business. I actually got messages from guys saying they'd never buy anything from NTH, because...actually, I'm trying to make sense of what it was.
> 
> ...


Don’t know about all that, but here’s five 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 for using Schrödinger in a post in a watch forum. Now if only you can make my next NTH run on anti-matter…


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Don’t know about all that, but here’s five 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 for using Schrödinger in a post in a watch forum. Now if only you can make my next NTH run on anti-matter…


It's not the first time I've invoked his name, just the most recent, until now...


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

New acquisition.
Really like the 2k1 size. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Doc, all I want is for you to make a watch with a Swiss movement and German assembly, made in America, by a brand that maintains prestige and wide recognition while still being micro and under the radar, with a high resale value but a MSRP that’s the same price or lower as the Chinese mushroom brands (but with better quality finishing, obviously) and always available at half of retail from a US based seller with free shipping. Also, I bought it broken on eBay and would like you to replace it with a new one. 

I don’t understand what’s so hard about this.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Psh…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well played Rusty! Soft spot for L&H!




Ubermanx said:


> Welp,
> 
> I finally did it. After owning a plethora of Lew & Huey watches I made the jump and my first NTH is on the way. Tracking is saying my NTH Santa Cruz will be hitting the Great White North in a day or two.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the Sequel: New Old Addiction




RotorRonin said:


> Doc, all I want is for you to make a watch with a Swiss movement and German assembly, made in America, by a brand that maintains prestige and wide recognition while still being micro and under the radar, with a high resale value but a MSRP that’s the same price or lower as the Chinese mushroom brands (but with better quality finishing, obviously) and always available at half of retail from a US based seller with free shipping. Also, I bought it broken on eBay and would like you to replace it with a new one.
> 
> I don’t understand what’s so hard about this.


2022 will be the year of Doc's super secret, possibly vintage inspired, possibly not, non-diver. @TheBearded told me so


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Well played Rusty! Soft spot for L&H!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Doc, all I want is for you to make a watch with a Swiss movement and German assembly, made in America, by a brand that maintains prestige and wide recognition while still being micro and under the radar, with a high resale value but a MSRP that’s the same price or lower as the Chinese mushroom brands (but with better quality finishing, obviously) and always available at half of retail from a US based seller with free shipping. Also, I bought it broken on eBay and would like you to replace it with a new one.
> 
> I don’t understand what’s so hard about this.


You joke, but...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I wonder if Schrodinger's cat has applicability to the long-standing, and currently once-again raging (you're welcome) debate about whether factories making legal homages also make fakes.

Perhaps Einstein would say these factories exist in a theoretical quantum-physics state of simultaneous superposition, in which they both do and do not make fakes, unless and until we observe them either doing so, or not doing so, at which time the superposition collapses into one or the other definite states of making or not making fakes.

Just like the cat (if it survives) doesn't remember being simultaneously dead and alive, it just remembers being alive, they don't remember making and not making fakes simultaneously, they only remember making them, if they did. They don't remember not making them, if they didn't.

Maybe that's why that argument is so stupid. That's what Schrodinger's cat was, after all, just a way for Schrodinger to call Einstein stupid for suggesting that the uncertainty of whether or not an unstable keg of gunpowder would explode in the future creates an interim future state in which it is both exploded and unexploded, unless and until one or the other outcome is observed.

Me? I just want to look in the box and know for sure if the cat's alive or dead, so we can stop arguing about it.


----------



## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

Ah, but one data point doesn't tell you the probability distribution. You need n>100, preferably over 1000. So you've got to build 1000 factories and put them in boxes with radioactive isotopes. So the real question is tritium dials or radium?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> the long-standing, and currently once-again raging (you're welcome) debate about whether factories making legal homages also make fakes.


I _knew_ you started that thread just to stir up sh*t!


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> 2022 will be the year of Doc's super secret, possibly vintage inspired, possibly not, non-diver. @TheBearded told me so


I’m dying.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I _knew_ you started that thread just to stir up sh*t!
> 
> View attachment 16341156


You want to know which forum members to add to your ignore list?

Follow the threads I start, and they'll present themselves soon enough.

The problem for me is one of you nitwits here will eventually quote one of them, which forces me to log out, just so I can read what they said, which completely defeats the purpose of having them on my ignore list.

They're Schrodinger's trolls. They both are and are not being ignored, simultaneously, until someone quotes one of them, and the quantum superposition collapses into the definitive state of me getting suckered into reading what they posted, like an idiot.

Maybe some day I'll learn not to look in the box. We all know the cat $hlt in it.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> The problem for me is one of you nitwits here will eventually quote one of them, which forces me to log out, just so I can read what they said, which completely defeats the purpose of having them on my ignore list.


Thank your for a very legitimate midnight laugh out loud.

Is it really midnight? Man, vacation screwed up my sleep schedule. Going back to work tomorrow is gonna suck.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Also, I absolutely adore the 2K1 case. I personally don't think there's anything to gain by copying any of the Sub designs and I don't want that. Is there a future for the 2K1?


Sorry, I missed this.

So...

1. Are you signed up for the email newsletter?

2. If you're asking about the Todaro and Upholder - we're still waiting on boxes to get here. I had a customer in New Zealand contact us a few days ago, to say his shipment has been sitting in Perth, Australia, since 2 December. Maybe it was lost in Perth. Maybe global shipping is at a standstill.

It's Schrodinger's shipping.. no, I won't keep going there.

Bottom line - I don't know when anything will happen any more. Your guess is as good as mine. All I know is "soon". Best I can do.

3. Beyond that, my answer is what it's always been - I'll share info about my future plans when I'm ready, and not a day sooner. 



josiahg52 said:


> Also, I absolutely adore the 2K1 case. I personally don't think there's anything to gain by copying any of the Sub designs and I don't want that. Is there a future for the 2K1?


1. I don't have any plans to adapt any of the 40mm Subs designs to the 2K1 case.

2. Barring some sudden spike in demand for more 2K1's, I think the frequency of future production for that model range will resemble that of the Tropics. It'll be a range we produce in smaller numbers, less frequently, probably not more frequently than once every 2 years or so.

We made the first release in mid-late 2020, so we might make more this year, maybe by mid-year, but the production plans for this year are still being developed. We might not make any more 2K1's until late this year, or not until next year.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Me? I just want to look in the box and know for sure if the ca's alive or dead, so we can stop arguing about it.


I'm hoping it's deceased, turned up its toes, shuffled off this mortal coil, is no more, has ceased to be, is bereft of life and it rests in pieces. In other words it's an ex-cat..I really don't like cats..



Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Anyone with cats knows that if a cat is in a box, its curled up in a furry ball and sound asleep. And likely to be mad at you all day if you wake it because you wanted to see what was in the box.

A cat sleeping is in the realm between the dead and the undead, not to be disturbed until it’s ready to come out, and then the food bowl had better be full!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

@docvail

Thank you for the reply. I think the 2K1 occupies a unique space: a "large" watch that wears small. I have an 8" wrist so I appreciate that because no one really likes a super-thick watch. Plus, a larger dial means that the date complication - if I want it - doesn't replace a lume plot or eliminate an index altogether. Clearly, that doesn't stop me from buying or wanting the Sub watches. They're a solid 40mm watch and I will purchase the Upholder and another Santa Fe if I'm fortunate to find one. You have been forthcoming with your plans and vision so I guess I'm not worried. I think I was just poking fun at you about the Upholder and Todaro release. Incidentally, my two Navy buddies I introduced to your watches are both looking at the Todaro.

I did sign up for the newsletter but I think you mentioned that if your system doesn't see engagement, it removes the subscriber. I typically use an email service that doesn't load "tracking" images or cookies which I imagine are required to measure such engagement. As a result, I'm probably quickly unsubscribed from the newsletter. This apparent occurrence is not unique to NTH, I assure you. It is an unfortunate result of my almost-Luddite existence in this connected era. I just signed up again and confirmed my subscription. I will make an effort to "engage" with any NTH email I receive in the future.

I look forward to any 2K1 offerings in the future but like that they will be a limited offering. I think the design is worthy of separate development.


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

Red PeeKay said:


> I'm hoping it's deceased, turned up its toes, shuffled off this mortal coil, is no more, has ceased to be, is bereft of life and it rests in pieces. In other words it's an ex-cat..I really don't like cats..


No, no, it's resting. Beautiful plumage...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TempusHertz said:


> No, no, it's resting. Beautiful plumage...


As long as it's not pining for those damn fjords...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

It's not pining, it's bleeding demised! It's joined the choir immortal! It has ceased to be! This is an ex-parrot!



Yes, I know I jumped to the other side of the counter there. And this isn't a thread about parrots. I'm done now, I swear.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Anyone with cats knows that if a cat is in a box, its curled up in a furry ball and sound asleep. And likely to be mad at you all day if you wake it because you wanted to see what was in the box.
> 
> A cat sleeping is in the realm between the dead and the undead, not to be disturbed until it’s ready to come out, and then the food bowl had better be full!


Or waiting for you to walk by so it can shred your ankles with teeth and claws. I’m watching our new one run wild across the living room while I finish my coffee. He’s a maniac.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

This is and remains the best thread on WUS.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Going old school since New Year's Day with the L&H Orthos. There is something truly special about this watch that keeps me coming back to it on a regular basis. It has been consistently one of my favourites since I got it and is always Top 3 most worn.

I love the colours, the colour combination, the design, the case, the way it sits on my wrist, so many things all combined together to make it work perfectly. The strange thing is that if you took individual elements of this watch it does not meet most of my current criteria for a watch!

We went for a walk on the beach yesterday and the views were amazing, even if the temperature was low and it was blowing a gale 























Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

There is nothing wrong with your internet connection. Do not attempt to adjust the pictures. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the design. We will control the release schedule. We can make more, make less. We can change the focus to a soft blur @ 40mm, or sharpen it to crystal clarity @ 43.75mm. For the next year, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and can buy. We repeat: There is nothing wrong with your internet connection. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to... The Outer Limits of NTH watches!

…AND it’s #2 👑 2uesday!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Or waiting for you to walk by so it can shred your ankles with teeth and claws. I’m watching our new one run wild across the living room while I finish my coffee. He’s a maniac.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Honestly, I only like cats when they're crazy.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

There is a place where it is traditional to wear watches with 3, 6, and 9 arabic indexes, on Tuesdays. This is not that place, but today, this is the watch. Aka, "Show a watch that can at least temporarily knock your new Tudor BB36 off your wrist..."


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

This thread is so deep.


----------



## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> There is a place where it is traditional to wear watches with 3, 6, and 9 arabic indexes, on Tuesdays. This is not that place, but today, this is the watch. Aka, "Show a watch that can at least temporarily knock your new Tudor BB36 off your wrist..."
> 
> View attachment 16342106


That place sounds like a good place.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> This thread is so deep.
> 
> View attachment 16342139


And wide.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> This thread is so deep.
> 
> View attachment 16342139











Schrödinger’s Equation


“So do any of you guys know quantum physics?” Paul Rudd in Avengers: Endgame




www.cantorsparadise.com


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

docvail said:


> The problem for me is one of you nitwits here will eventually quote one of them, which forces me to log out, just so I can read what they said, which completely defeats the purpose of having them on my ignore list.


Sorry... but not really.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Schrödinger’s Equation
> 
> 
> “So do any of you guys know quantum physics?” Paul Rudd in Avengers: Endgame
> ...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Schrödinger’s Equation
> 
> 
> “So do any of you guys know quantum physics?” Paul Rudd in Avengers: Endgame
> ...


The last time I had to actually think about physics was 55 years ago in high school. Don't remember much except some guy named Newton and his fruit fetish.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

The correct Avengers quote is: "Have either of you guys ever studied quantum physics?" 

To which Black Widow replies, "Only to make conversation."


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> Going old school since New Year's Day with the L&H Orthos. There is something truly special about this watch that keeps me coming back to it on a regular basis. It has been consistently one of my favourites since I got it and is always Top 3 most worn.
> 
> I love the colours, the colour combination, the design, the case, the way it sits on my wrist, so many things all combined together to make it work perfectly. The strange thing is that if you took individual elements of this watch it does not meet most of my current criteria for a watch!
> 
> ...


Oh wait.... is that last photo of a fjord?

See where all this talk of dead cats and blue Norwegian parrots has led...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Good morning all.








Catching up on the shenanigans in this thread before diving into the days work. Carry on.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> There is a place where it is traditional to wear watches with 3, 6, and 9 arabic indexes, on Tuesdays. This is not that place, but today, this is the watch. Aka, "Show a watch that can at least temporarily knock your new Tudor BB36 off your wrist..."
> 
> View attachment 16342106












I can dig it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

3-1-1 said:


> Good morning all.
> View attachment 16343835
> 
> Catching up on the shenanigans in this thread before diving into the days work. Carry on.


Ohboyohboyohboy! That is S-W-E-E-T! 
Dibs!


----------



## Ubermanx (Jan 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> Marty???
> 
> Bro, welcome back to the forums. Seems like a dog's age since you been here.


Thanks, Doc. It has been a crazy few years for me. I've always managed to check in and lurk a few times a month but the WUS bug is kinda back. And, once again, it's one of your amazing timepieces that is the trigger 

~ Marty


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Somebody call for 3, 6, 9?


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

Now that is a handsome watch.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHresher #NTHursday
Ambient temperature 27, windchill 12…couldn’t stick it out until 10:10 😂. Bonus dog pic at end…left to right Zee, Blaze, Thor…


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Tried too hard to get my dog involved in #nthursday


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

Just received my first NTH, a Näcken and can’t stop looking at it.

Add one to the list of people who would buy a jubilee style bracelet for the NTH subs.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

yom said:


> Just received my first NTH, a Näcken and can’t stop looking at it.
> 
> Add one to the list of people who would buy a jubilee style bracelet for the NTH subs.


I can’t personally confirm, but I recall seeing talk of the Strapcode Jubilee for the Alpinist being a good fit.
And unless u are dead set on a jubilee, I’d say give the OEM BoP a try. Has many of the same things going for it IMO as far as looks and comfort. Plus u get perfect end link fitment.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3-1-1 said:


> I can’t personally confirm, but I recall seeing talk of the Strapcode Jubilee for the Alpinist being a good fit.
> And unless u are dead set on a jubilee, I’d say give the OEM BoP a try. Has many of the same things going for it IMO as far as looks and comfort. Plus u get perfect end link fitment.


Full agreement. The fan dubbed Beads of Poop bracelet is incredibly comfortable.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday

Because doc hated NTHTuesday 🤣


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

BofPoop


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> #NTHursday
> 
> Because doc hated NTHTuesday
> 
> View attachment 16347226


No hate!

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Seemed like a Tropics was the logical choice for this balmy 18 degree morning (windchill 12)…


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

3-1-1 said:


> I can’t personally confirm, but I recall seeing talk of the Strapcode Jubilee for the Alpinist being a good fit.
> And unless u are dead set on a jubilee, I’d say give the OEM BoP a try. Has many of the same things going for it IMO as far as looks and comfort. Plus u get perfect end link fitment.


I can’t justify my logic beyond saying I like jubilees but don’t like BoR. I’ve tried to persuade myself but it doesn’t scratch the same itch for me. I have an SKX013 Strapcode jubilee but it doesn’t quite match the lugs, so the oyster will have to do. And do it does.

On a more positive note, this watch scratches just about every other itch I had! So many details and design choices are spot on.

snowflake hands are in their element today


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yom said:


> I can’t justify my logic beyond saying I like jubilees but don’t like BoR. I’ve tried to persuade myself but it doesn’t scratch the same itch for me. I have an SKX013 Strapcode jubilee but it doesn’t quite match the lugs, so the oyster will have to do. And do it does.
> 
> On a more positive note, this watch scratches just about every other itch I had! So many details and design choices are spot on.
> 
> ...


Glad you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

You may want to try out one of Long Island Watches' 20mm Jubilee bracelets for Seiko SRPE models, but use a thicker spring bar, which I understand helps to minimize what would otherwise be only a slight wobble in the end-link fit to the case.









Islander 20mm Brushed and Polished Solid-Link Watch Bracelet for Seiko 5 SRPE Watches, Curved End #BRAC-10


Islander BRAC-10 Brushed and Polished Stainless Steel Bracelet for Seiko 5 watches SRPE51, 53, 55, 57, 61,63, 67 watches. Curved ends. 20mm lug width. Milled Scissor Deployant clasp.




longislandwatch.com


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

docvail said:


> Glad you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.
> 
> You may want to try out one of Long Island Watches' 20mm Jubilee bracelets for Seiko SRPE models, but use a thicker spring bar, which I understand helps to minimize what would otherwise be only a slight wobble in the end-link fit to the case.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recommendation. Can you verify the lug and end link shape is somewhat close? And is it safe to assume the Strapcode SRPE bracelets would fit similarly?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yom said:


> Thanks for the recommendation. Can you verify the lug and end link shape is somewhat close? And is it safe to assume the Strapcode SRPE bracelets would fit similarly?


I can verify that other people who've tried them have said they're close.

I think @mconlonx rated the fit 93%. @Elbakalao rated it 90%. His pics are below.

@3WR said the fit was better when using the thicker spring-bars included with the LIW bracelet than it was using the stock NTH bars. He said the end-link can be moved if you tug on the bracelet, but the movement is mostly on the case-back side.

I believe the thickness of the spring bar can make a difference, having gone through 2 months of self-torture trying to figure out why our fitted rubber straps first perfectly fit our cases, then didn't fit at all (answer - different spring bars).

I know our clasp is better, and our bracelet quality is better overall, but the LIW's seem to be good for the money, the clasps are swap-able, and if you like a more dramatic taper, the LIW bracelet tapers from 20 to 16mm, whereas ours only goes down to 18mm.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Source material:

Long Island Watch BRAC-09 oyster worked well for me.

I score end link fit very good, not perfect.

Can move end link around a lot with NTH spring bars. Much better with thicker, LIW-supplied bars. Can move end link around a little if you tug on it, but most of the movement is on the caseback side. I don’t notice anything objectionable on the top.

Seems very similar to the first generation NTH Sub bracelet but with slightly longer links and, of course, more taper. (20mm → 16mm) Clasps very similar except for the width. LIW screws are nice because the threaded part is on the end with the screw head. Very easy to pull screws out a short distance to baptize them all with low strength Loctite.

Here are some smudgy, harshly lit comparison shots.
LIW BRAC-09 [Tikuna] vs. NTH old school [Nacken] vs. NTH middle school* [Amphion]

*(shorter links, longer clasp - before end link update in 2020 / 2021?)


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

docvail said:


> I can verify that other people who've tried them have said they're close.
> 
> I think @mconlonx rated the fit 93%. @Elbakalao rated it 90%. His pics are below.
> 
> ...





3WR said:


> Source material:
> 
> Long Island Watch BRAC-09 oyster worked well for me.
> 
> ...


Thank you both, this is incredibly helpful. I’ve had good experiences with Strapcode bracelets, is it reasonable to expect their SRPE end links to fit the same? (If you end up being wrong I won’t hold it against you, just looking for a second opinion.) Also can anyone give a quality comparison between LIW and Strapcode?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, I checked fit with the Uncle Seiko jubilee for SRPE, which is hollow endlink, not the LIW.

If I'm remembering correct, fit was good, only off note was slight mismatch at curvature of lugs and endlink.


----------



## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> FWIW, I checked fit with the Uncle Seiko jubilee for SRPE, which is hollow endlink, not the LIW.
> 
> If I'm remembering correct, fit was good, only off note was slight mismatch at curvature of lugs and endlink.


I am actually leaning a bit towards the Uncle Seiko. I can bend and shape the end links a bit and plus they’re female. One big plus of the NTH end links is the downward curve that effectively makes it almost like a female end link in terms of effective lug to lug.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

yom said:


> I can’t justify my logic beyond saying I like jubilees but don’t like BoR. I’ve tried to persuade myself but it doesn’t scratch the same itch for me. I have an SKX013 Strapcode jubilee but it doesn’t quite match the lugs, so the oyster will have to do. And do it does.
> 
> On a more positive note, this watch scratches just about every other itch I had! So many details and design choices are spot on.
> 
> ...


No need to justify the logic. Jubilee > BoR. 

-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> No need to justify the logic. Jubilee > BoR.
> 
> -Rusty
> 
> ...


Quoted for emphasis


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yom said:


> Thank you both, this is incredibly helpful. I’ve had good experiences with Strapcode bracelets, is it reasonable to expect their SRPE end links to fit the same? (If you end up being wrong I won’t hold it against you, just looking for a second opinion.) Also can anyone give a quality comparison between LIW and Strapcode?


I can only confirm we were able to fit the 20mm SKX bracelet from Strapcode to a v.1 Sub.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> No need to justify the logic. Jubilee > BoR.
> 
> -Rusty
> 
> ...


GTFOH.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

rpm1974 said:


> No need to justify the logic. Jubilee > BoR.
> 
> -Rusty
> 
> ...



















Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> No need to justify the logic. Jubilee > BoR.
> 
> -Rusty
> 
> ...


Leather <> Milanese > Jubilee > BoR


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

…holding me over until I can acquire an NTH 24 hr watch…


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

yom said:


> I am actually leaning a bit towards the Uncle Seiko. I can bend and shape the end links a bit and plus they’re female. One big plus of the NTH end links is the downward curve that effectively makes it almost like a female end link in terms of effective lug to lug.


I have both the BoR and an aftermarket Jubilee for my NTH’s. I originally lent towards the Jubilee as it has the 20-16 taper, and the BoR did not exist from NTH. Now I like both equally as they are super comfortable. 










The Jubilee has solid end links that don’t quite match the lugs, but are close enough that I don’t notice them, plus the fit the case without any movement. 































It also has the benefit of a hidden clasp. I bought this from AliExpress a few years ago. It is just a standard Rolex fit 20mm Jubilee. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

Omegafanboy said:


> I have both the BoR and an aftermarket Jubilee for my NTH’s. I originally lent towards the Jubilee as it has the 20-16 taper, and the BoR did not exist from NTH. Now I like both equally as they are super comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Do you recall which AliExpress item it was exactly?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

yom said:


> Thanks for the info. Do you recall which AliExpress item it was exactly?


I cannot seem to pull the link from the app but if you go to the Hengrc Official Store and then search for 20mm solid link you should be able to find it.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk

￡10.44 50%OFF | 20mm Metal Watchbands Bracelet Men 316L Stainless Steel Watch Band Women Fashion Watch Strap Deployment Clasp Buckle Accessories


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Oyster>everything.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My new NTH dual time setup. Can track 3 timezones. Aka, fun with velcro.

























Also, this setup, which does not pass under the watch, Mankey hook strap style.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I prefer an H-link bracelet over all others. But have to admit that the NTH 3-link is all that, from a comfort standpoint. Just wish they didn't look so oystery.

The NTH BoP is also supremely comfy and answers the female endlink question. I don't even know what the point is with those jubilee bracelets that have male endlinks with faux articulating link look. Would rather have hollow endlinks.

With other brands, where an aftermarket bracelet is called for (Seiko 5), prefer a president style to Jubilee.

But I hear velcro is all the new rage...


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Oyster>everything.
















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

rpm1974 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Off topic...
Man I forgot how much long drives suck. Just spent 13.5hrs behind the wheel listening to the hum of the F250s diesel. Dallas, Texas to Ashville, North Carolina. Only 5.5hrs more to the final destination of Washington, NC(Hotel) and Aurora(Site). I'll try and post some pictures when I get the time. 

Any of the regulars in here in NC? Know of any good seafood joints in that area? I figure I might as well seeing as I'll be right by the coast.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I been about it since you posted you were even thinking about it. Definitely in for one!

That being said, I’ll say here what I said in the other thread: I like the muffler link bracelet _way_ more than I thought I would. Enough so that if you hadn’t released an oyster I wouldn’t be bothered. The original bracelet is super comfortable and visually unique.


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

Omegafanboy said:


> I cannot seem to pull the link from the app but if you go to the Hengrc Official Store and then search for 20mm solid link you should be able to find it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk
> 
> ￡10.44 50%OFF | 20mm Metal Watchbands Bracelet Men 316L Stainless Steel Watch Band Women Fashion Watch Strap Deployment Clasp Buckle Accessories


Looks great, I think I will pull the trigger. One more thing, are the links short enough that you could still get a good fit without micro adjustments? I suppose it’s the luck of the draw but I’m wondering if I should get the regular clasp or possibly both just in case.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Today I shall be runnin‘ w/the Devil…


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

yom said:


> Looks great, I think I will pull the trigger. One more thing, are the links short enough that you could still get a good fit without micro adjustments? I suppose it’s the luck of the draw but I’m wondering if I should get the regular clasp or possibly both just in case.


The links are all more like half links so I was able to get a fairly good fit. I also like a little bit of room for my watch to move so I wear it a little loose anyway. I am sure you could get it close enough. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I really think I need a turquoise Devil Ray.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

josiahg52 said:


> I really think I need a turquoise Devil Ray.


You thought right.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah, I just think turquoise is a cool color for a watch, it's a color I certainly don't have, and I think it remains highly visible at depth. I'll wait for the Upholder release unless that slips excessively for some reason.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

If anyone has a Zwaardvis they may not need anymore let me know 

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Still runnin’ w/Devil…


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tikuna Day
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

I’m not one to post photos of my watches but man this model is really hitting me right. I have another watch with a Miyota so it’s nothing new, but the only fault for me is the unidirectional rotor noise and lack of jubilee


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

Double post how to delete…


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Any updates on Todaro/Upholder availability?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Any updates on Todaro/Upholder availability?


Just waiting on boxes to get here. Hopefully will be able to ship them to retailers by the end of the week.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not my listing.

1 of 10 produced Barracuda Blue with date - FS: NTH Barracuda Blue w/ Date | 40mm x 11.5mm 300M WR |...


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

#nthtuesday

Going "God" level with the Odin on a rubber strap. I did consider getting a blue Nacken and doing a bezel swap with an Odin, to give the new Pelagos look, but then I thought " why bother" when I already have an Odin that I love that has swords instead of snowflakes!!!!









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> #nthtuesday
> 
> Going "God" level with the Odin on a rubber strap. I did consider getting a blue Nacken and doing a bezel swap with an Odin, to give the new Pelagos look, but then I thought " why bother" when I already have an Odin that I love that has swords instead of snowflakes!!!!
> 
> ...


Which strap is this? Looks an awful lot like the Aqua Terra (strap) I tried on during my last visit to Philly...


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

rpm1974 said:


> No need to justify the logic. Jubilee > BoR.
> 
> -Rusty
> 
> ...


YES!  I LIKE this guy! 

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

A little Swifty on a rainy #NTHuesday…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cghorr01 said:


> YES!  I LIKE this guy!
> 
> Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk


Don't encourage him.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Don't encourage him.


But do buy his watches!








Classic Watch Designs - Modern Materials | Atticus Watch Company


We make classically designed automatic mechanical wristwatches using modern materials for watch enthusiasts by watch enthusiasts.



atticuswatch.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...about them boxes, and the Todaro / Upholder...

My box factory sent me FedEx tracking, but tracking just shows the labels were created, not any actual movement of the shipment, which is never a good sign.

The response to my inquiry about it came last night. Basically, they're saying they had to transfer the shipment to a FedEx facility in a neighboring city because there was an outbreak of Covid within the Shenzhen FedEx hub.

They're now saying the shipment should leave by this weekend, and I'll have it next week, not this week.

So...no Todaro or Upholder shipments until late next week, at the soonest.


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Avo said:


> But do buy his watches!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, I do, as you know. I have the Icarus date currently and just got my tracking number for the Daedalus. 

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

rpm1974 said:


> Which strap is this? Looks an awful lot like the Aqua Terra (strap) I tried on during my last visit to Philly...


It is an Aliexpress version of the Omega strap, only $20. Unfortunately it also has a branded clasp even though the ad showed it unbranded. I have debated getting another clasp as I was not happy getting the fake branding, but I don't notice it to be honest.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone was asking me about what's coming in 2022. 

In broad strokes...

1. More *Barracuda Vintage Black* and *Näcken Modern Blue*, because best-sellers. We might have them available as soon as February. I expect March at the latest.

2. *More DevilRays. All new designs* using the same case / bracelet / specs, but VERY different than current DR versions. All sold exclusively through Watch Gecko. Should be here sometime between March and April/May. Stay tuned for more.

3. Not counting the Todaro and Upholder, *at least 5 new designs for the 40mm Subs* (v.2). 

One of those will be the tribute to my Army mentor, Sgt. Mack. That model will be sold exclusively through the NTH website, with a portion of the proceeds going to his surviving family. My guess is we're looking at a May / June ready-by date.

The other 4 will be *a MAJOR departure* from what we've been doing with the Subs, and sold exclusively through Watch Gecko. Stay tuned for more. Again, I think we're looking at a May / June ready-by date, but possibly sooner.

3. At least one other existing Subs model will make a return in 2022 (likely around the same time - between March and May). That one will be sold exclusively through Long Island Watches. I know what it is, but it's too early to say. Hint - it's a model we last released in 2019.

Depending on how things go with these next 2-3 releases, we might bring back more Subs designs from past years, or come up with some more new designs. Still not sure. Still too soon to say.

I was thinking we might bring back one of the Amphions (maybe the Vintage Gilt), the original Scorpène (black w/ 60-minute bezel), the Näcken Vintage White (full lume), and maybe the Barracuda Blue, or maybe an Amphion version of that (with sword hands instead of snowflakes).

I might also lose my mind, and just make more of a lot of stuff, but in very small numbers. We still have dials sitting around for at least a dozen different versions. We'll see if I can rationalize using them or letting them sit there for another year.

Whatever we do there, new designs or existing, any Subs we make won't be ready before mid-year. More likely they'll be a late Q3 or early Q4 release.

4. I'm thinking about bringing back some of the *2K1's*. Probably 2 of the original Swiftsure versions, plus a new Thresher colorway, and...not sure if there will be anything else there. I'm debating new 2K1 designs versus bringing back any of the other original designs. Probably looking at an early Q3 release.

5. I still haven't had time to get back into working on the non-diver I've had in the works for a while, but it's something I plan to work on soon. Stay tuned (but don't bother me for updates - when I want to share, I'll share). Depending on how long it takes to actually finish the design, we MIGHT be looking at a Q4 release.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> So...about them boxes, and the Todaro / Upholder...
> 
> My box factory sent me FedEx tracking, but tracking just shows the labels were created, not any actual movement of the shipment, which is never a good sign.
> 
> ...


We don't need no stinkin box. Just send mine in a crumpled up McDonald's bag. Our zip codes are close enough. Just be sure to leave some of those straggler fries at the bottom. I'm done with this New Year's diet.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Lab4Us said:


> A little Swifty on a rainy #NTHuesday…
> 
> View attachment 16358325
> 
> ...


Love the gray strap with this. Well done. Well done indeed.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Someone was asking me about what's coming in 2022.
> 
> In broad strokes...
> 
> ...


I am liking the sounds of this and I am intrigued by the whole "new designs" for the subs. The cases are so good you could easily use them with something completely new. 

I also recognize one of those ideas....... could it be that I inspired you?

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> I am liking the sounds of this and I am intrigued by the whole "new designs" for the subs. The cases are so good you could easily use them with something completely new.
> 
> I also recognize one of those ideas....... could it be that I inspired you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


If one can be inspired by being annoyed, then...yes.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> If one can be inspired by being annoyed, then...yes.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...







Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> Someone was asking me about what's coming in 2022.
> 
> In broad strokes...
> 
> ...



Anything with sword hands please!


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Have my favorite Amphion Vintage Gilt on a new 20-16mm taper oyster bracelet from Long Island Watch. I love the look the sharp taper give this watch! Also all 5 of us are stuck home sick with Covid, so thats fun...


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## blitzoid (Jan 21, 2016)

Link to that bracelet? I hope the covid symptoms are mild, the video queue is full, and that you can still taste the chicken soup.



PowerChucker said:


> Have my favorite Amphion Vintage Gilt on a new 20-16mm taper oyster bracelet from Long Island Watch. I love the look the sharp taper give this watch! Also all 5 of us are stuck home sick with Covid, so thats fun...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

blitzoid said:


> Link to that bracelet? I hope the covid symptoms are mild, the video queue is full, and that you can still taste the chicken soup.


this is the one I got. I actually bought it because @dustybutdigital  bought it for his NTH, and I asked him about where he got it lol.
Taper Oyster


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Having a hard time focusing today. This one might not be good for work.


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## blitzoid (Jan 21, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> this is the one I got. I actually bought it because @dustybutdigital bought it for his NTH, and I asked him about where he got it lol.
> Taper Oyster


...and no end-link swapping required? If so, that's an amazing fit!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

blitzoid said:


> ...and no end-link swapping required? If so, that's an amazing fit!


they were tight, but they fit, so no end link swapping.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> Have my favorite Amphion Vintage Gilt on a new 20-16mm taper oyster bracelet from Long Island Watch. I love the look the sharp taper give this watch! Also all 5 of us are stuck home sick with Covid, so thats fun...
> View attachment 16362141
> 
> View attachment 16362142


Hope y'all feel better! Bracelet looks comfy! Well done!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> Hope y'all feel better! Bracelet looks comfy! Well done!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


thanks my friend! we feel pretty crappy, but we will pull though


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

WOTD











This one is a great example of why I prefer sport watches, anticipating that they will see some wear. I certainly never meant to beat this thing up, but the accumulated scratches and scuffs tell a tale of daily life...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Another #NTHursday already?


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday










-Rusty


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

I owned this very watch... then for some unknown reason, I sold it. Regretted that move the moment happened.

Long story short, the very same watch is back with me!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

davek35 said:


> I owned this very watch... then for some unknown reason, I sold it. Regretted that move the moment happened.
> 
> Long story short, the very same watch is back with me!
> View attachment 16362659


Ive actually had that happen top me as well. I had a sweet Dagaz modded SNZH55 back in 2015, I traded it out, then I got the same exact watch back from the guy I traded it to in summer 2021.. strange how these watches just travel in small circles


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> I owned this very watch... then for some unknown reason, I sold it. Regretted that move the moment happened.
> 
> Long story short, the very same watch is back with me!
> View attachment 16362659


The same model, or literally, the exact same piece?

WIS are weird...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Have my favorite Amphion Vintage Gilt on a new 20-16mm taper oyster bracelet from Long Island Watch. I love the look the sharp taper give this watch! Also all 5 of us are stuck home sick with Covid, so thats fun...


Sorry to hear everyone in your casa is no bueno.

One of my sons and my wife got it around New Year's, after the both of them and I had it in late 2020. Thankfully, my son was over it in a day, and my wife's symptoms were pretty mild, only lasting a day or two.

When I had the original, I also had strep throat at the same time. So...that sucked. Knocked me on my a$$ for about two weeks, plus two more with a lingering cough.

My seat of the pants impression is that the current variant floating around is indeed more contagious. I hear about people around us getting it much more frequently than I heard of people getting the original variant.

I'm reminded of my cousin Vinny...


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> The same model, or literally, the exact same piece?
> WIS are weird...


The same exact piece! The little zip lock bag the extra links were in had a little tear, has pictured in the ad I had posted when I sold it and pictured in the ad I bought it back from. It was easy to follow the 2 owner’s trail over the period of time I didn’t own it (it was gone from me 4 months).

Yes, we are a bit weird.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Happy #NTHursday!


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## cghorr01 (Aug 22, 2019)

Quick pic and shameless plug for Rusty with my most recent addition. The red is absolutely a home run on this. I'll also second whoever said Vino Scorpene. Sunburst wine colored dial, yes please. Sign me up!









Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I've been trying to figure out the association with Atticus ever since I started hanging out on this side of the forum. Took me long enough but I get it now. Great looking watches.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Sorry to hear everyone in your casa is no bueno.
> 
> One of my sons and my wife got it around New Year's, after the both of them and I had it in late 2020. Thankfully, my son was over it in a day, and my wife's symptoms were pretty mild, only lasting a day or two.
> 
> ...


its scary how effective this new version spreads! i have my vaccine and my booster, and it hit me like i was nothing. Its hitting us actually pretty hard, of my 3 boys, 2 are very sick with one up all night puking, the other with bad chest cough and headache. my wife puked all day yesterday, and cough/headache. I have chest pain from cough and headache, and woke up this morning to find out I no longer can taste or smell anything, so thats fun. the only one who is ok, is my 8 year old.. he has no symptoms, and he is the one we all got it from as he tested positive first.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> its scary how effective this new version spreads! i have my vaccine and my booster, and it hit me like i was nothing. Its hitting us actually pretty hard, of my 3 boys, 2 are very sick with one up all night puking, the other with bad chest cough and headache. my wife puked all day yesterday, and cough/headache. I have chest pain from cough and headache, and woke up this morning to find out I no longer can taste or smell anything, so thats fun. the only one who is ok, is my 8 year old.. he has no symptoms, and he is the one we all got it from as he tested positive first.


Might be the flurona. Yeah, that’s a thing now.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Atticus Pharos
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> its scary how effective this new version spreads! i have my vaccine and my booster, and it hit me like i was nothing. Its hitting us actually pretty hard, of my 3 boys, 2 are very sick with one up all night puking, the other with bad chest cough and headache. my wife puked all day yesterday, and cough/headache. I have chest pain from cough and headache, and woke up this morning to find out I no longer can taste or smell anything, so thats fun. the only one who is ok, is my 8 year old.. he has no symptoms, and he is the one we all got it from as he tested positive first.


My infant niece had to go to the ER due to her symptoms around New Year's. Both of her parents also got it, despite being fully vaxxed.

Last Thursday night, my wife told me she needed to go check on a friend/co-worker, from whom no one had heard in 24 hours. She lives ten minutes away.

For some reason, my mind went to the worst possibility, so I told her I'd take her there, knowing there was no way she could handle the worst scenario I was imagining.

We get there, bang on the door, dog barks from the other side, no answer. The girl's been under a lot of stress from work, and likes wine, and apparently just had a bad break up with some guy who turned out to be psycho (like, she needed to get a restraining order).

Another friend in the building can't find maintenance to let us in, so we call the cops to come do a welfare check.

I was positive we'd find a dead body inside. Finally, she comes to the door.

Covid. Fully vaxxed. Looked like the walking dead.

She took a bunch of NyQuil and zonked out since the night before, only getting up to feed the dog and let him out.

We had a good laugh. Since then, every time she says anything to me, I'm like, "b1tch, you were dead a minute ago. Calm your t1ts."

If you want "bedside manner" don't look for it from an army medic. They didn't teach us that. It was all gunshot wounds, IVs, and rectal thermometers.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#FromtheWatchboxFriday

Today it’s my Isobrite ISO305 Valor Series Tan T100 Tritium Watch, sporting its new Watch Steward minimalist elastic…


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

PowerChucker said:


> its scary how effective this new version spreads! i have my vaccine and my booster, and it hit me like i was nothing. Its hitting us actually pretty hard, of my 3 boys, 2 are very sick with one up all night puking, the other with bad chest cough and headache. my wife puked all day yesterday, and cough/headache. I have chest pain from cough and headache, and woke up this morning to find out I no longer can taste or smell anything, so thats fun. the only one who is ok, is my 8 year old.. he has no symptoms, and he is the one we all got it from as he tested positive first.


You might have been unlucky and caught one of the older versions with those symptoms. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Omegafanboy said:


> You might have been unlucky and caught one of the older versions with those symptoms.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


that actually crossed my mind this morning. How would I be able to find out? is there a way a Doc can tell the difference in variants?


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

PowerChucker said:


> that actually crossed my mind this morning. How would I be able to find out? is there a way a Doc can tell the difference in variants?


Not the Doc in this thread


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

I found this.


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

This thread never disappoints. Now Doc is dropping ‘rectal thermometers’ and I’m ok with that. #keepemcoming


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Atticus Pharos lume!









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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

kpjimmy said:


> Atticus Pharos lume!
> View attachment 16365474
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Now that's cheating... we can all clearly see what is going on here..

That watch lume is being activated by your force field ring! 

Does that come with the watch? 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Red PeeKay said:


> Now that's cheating... we can all clearly see what is going on here..
> 
> That watch lume is being activated by your force field ring!
> 
> ...


Nah, just happened to coordinate the lume colors on both. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Horoticus said:


> This thread never disappoints. Now Doc is dropping ‘rectal thermometers’ and I’m ok with that. #keepemcoming


How is the lume on those rectal thermometers?


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> How is the lume on those rectal thermometers?


I think that may depend on the patient.
This place is great. I came for the watches, I stayed for the rectal jokes.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

dmjonez said:


> How is the lume on those rectal thermometers?


Rectum?… Damn near Killed ‘em! 

Anyway Lume is great when I open my mouth it shines out like a flashlight that I use to charge the lume of my other watches with. 


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## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Lume on thermometers? That requires a Van DeGraff generator.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

^Gurthang54 said:


> Lume on thermometers? That requires a Van DeGraff generator.
> 
> View attachment 16367179


Well that’s not gonna fit up there!!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> Well that’s not gonna fit up there!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


TWSS

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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> TWSS
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Serious lol


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

London is blue! 



Bought this from ZuluDiver in their sale, a steal for £8.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Someone looking for a black Odin?








SOLD: NTH Odin Black No Date Full Kit


Like new NTH Odin black no date. All exrra links included. Best bang for buck Seamaster homage. Auto, hacking, hand winding Miyota 9015; 11.5 mm thick!; 40 mm w/o crown; 48 mm L to L; sapphire; epic lume. Outer box has bent corners. $475 shipped to CONUS via Paypal. I have plenty of good...




www.watchuseek.com





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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Someone looking for a black Odin?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Corrupt link.
Edit - and yet it looks good in my quote of your post. Weird 🤷🏼


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Snaggletooth said:


> Corrupt link.


Really? Works on tapa and web view. I did need to fix the link since I initially posted so you may have been using the older link I posted.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Really? Works on tapa
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


OK, looks good now. 🤦🏼‍♂️


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Anyone else watching the Eagles get assaulted by Tampa Bay? It’s so painful to watch. 


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

PowerChucker said:


> Anyone else watching the Eagles get assaulted by Tampa Bay? It’s so painful to watch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not watching, but I've been keeping track of the score. I know your pain. I'm a Green Bay fan shareholder, and our playoff loss to Tampa last year still stings.

Tom Brady is a super-powered mutant, never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, too rare to die (or lose, apparently).


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Coriolanus said:


> Not watching, but I've been keeping track of the score. I know your pain. I'm a Green Bay fan shareholder, and our playoff loss to Tampa last year still stings.
> 
> Tom Brady is a super-powered mutant, never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, too rare to die (or lose, apparently).


Yeah he isn’t human. He destroyed us! 


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

SF marching through the Dallas D on the first drive, always love to see the Niners beat "America's Team", from the "The Catch" on ...


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

bigvic said:


> London is blue!
> 
> 
> 
> Bought this from ZuluDiver in their sale, a steal for £8.


Gorgeous. I had to give this a like even though London is red. Lol. 


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

And now the Steelers getting worked over by the Chiefs... not sure this is how Big Ben wanted to go..

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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Cheeseburger in paradise…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> And now the Steelers getting worked over by the Chiefs... not sure this is how Big Ben wanted to go..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I must say I'm surprised to see someone in Oz paying attention to US football. Are you an ex-pat American, or does the NFL hold some morbid curiosity for foreigners?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> So....I have no idea what AnOrdain's costs are, or what their markup is, and I wouldn't discuss that info if I did know.
> 
> But, using my own markups, if I increased the price of the NTH Subs by $350, that would mean the Swiss version of the movement costs more than double what the Japanese version costs us.
> 
> ...


Returning to the subject of those LJP G100 movements AnOrdain is using...

I reached out to LJP to get info on them. To LJP's credit, their response was virtually instant, by European vendor standards. My message was sent late in the day, last Wednesday. Their response came this morning.

Again, to their credit, their response was comprehensive, in that it provided a matrix of pricing for all versions of the calibre, purchased in quantities ranging from 100 to 500 pieces.

As you'd expect, someone buying the lowest level version in the largest quantities would get a much better price than someone buying one of the higher level versions in lower quantities. I don't know what version AnOrdain is using, nor do I know the quantity they're buying, obviously.

Also, I should point out - it's been a while since I asked my vendor what my actual movement costs are (because I tend to look at my costs of assembled watches in the aggregate), and what my vendor would charge me is obviously less than they pay when they buy from the Seiko or Miyota distributor, who would obviously be paying less when buying direct from Seiko or Miyota.

And, movement prices can go up and down, even if the longer-term trend is generally up.

Lastly - I haven't sought out Sellita SW200 costs in a while, so I have no idea how the LJP costs compare.

All that said, depending on the particulars, the price difference between what I think I'm paying for a standard 9015 and what the LJP's cost ranges from 70% more to 160% more for the LJP G100. A retail price difference of $350, as a result, is certainly within the spectrum of reasonable expectations.

One thing that did stick out to me, upon further reading about the G100 - the Miyota specs suggest the 9015 is adjusted to four positions, without explicitly stating that, exactly. I'm basing my assumption about it on the specs defining the four positions for measuring accuracy. I think it's logical to assume those would be the four positions of adjustment.

But the standard G100 is only adjusted (or regulated, translating from the French "réglage") to three. Rather than making me think that the 9015 is actually only adjusted to three, my first suspicion would be that the substantial changes made to the design of the movement lead to the difference in positional adjustment.

The open question is - is it worth it?

I don't know. The LJP G100 comes with being "Swiss", for whatever that's worth. It also has a longer power reserve (ditto) of 68 hours (compared to the 9015's 42+). And the stated accuracy range is tighter than the 9015's, though as I've said many times, our experience with the Miyotas lead us to see the manufacturer's specs as being overly conservative.

I should probably also point out that the LJP appears to be better all around than the Sellita SW200 it's been compared to, in terms of specs. We don't know about its reliability, but if it's based on the Miyota, my money would be on it being more reliable than the Sellitas.

The big question for me would be - what are the expectations regarding ongoing maintenance?

A discussion in another thread, about the ongoing costs of ownership associated with affordable watches versus expensive watches got me thinking today, about how there's a price range / movement replacement cost range in which the economics become more murky...

Like, if your $400-$800 watch has a Miyota 9015, which will likely run for decades before it needs to be replaced, and that's going to cost $200, if you even bother, the economics are easy to understand, and for many of us, easy to accept. Likewise, I don't see how anyone could say it doesn't make sense to spend $700 or $800 to service a $10k Rolex, if the lack of maintenance would ultimately destroy its value.

But what if the watch is $1000-$1200-$1500, and the service or replacement of the movement is going to cost $300, or more, and might be required more frequently? 

My suspicion has always been that the higher the service/replacement costs are in relation to the original purchase price, the more likely the owner is to postpone maintenance, and the longer they are to postpone it, as a result.

Maybe this is why so many WIS seem to view the $1000-$2000 price range as a sort of "no man's land".

I just saw in another thread that the Anordain Model 1 will be $2520 with Sellita SW200, or $330 more with the LJP ($2850), so that's a bit more in the "makes sense to have it regularly serviced" price range, I guess.

It seems to me that the question isn't (or at least shouldn't be), "is the LJP worth $330 more than the Sellita", but rather, "which do you think will require service more frequently, and what is that service likely to cost?" Maybe also ask, "where will it be serviced, by whom, and how long is that likely to take?"

YMMV. Choose wisely.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Pretty sure the NTH I currently have are just about as accurate as my Oris and Formex, both fully “Swiss” and “certified”. In the case of one of them, one of my NTH holds accuracy much longer…observed from being worn, no “formal“ testing. Really wish I’d have known about/experienced NTH about 6 months earlier than I did. But a great lesson and now I know better. Doesn’t mean I won’t buy another Oris or even a Formex, It just wouldn’t be because I thought they were “better”. It would be because I liked the design of the watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Pretty sure the NTH I currently have are just about as accurate as my Oris and Formex, both fully “Swiss” and “certified”. In the case of one of them, one of my NTH holds accuracy much longer…observed from being worn, no “formal“ testing. Really wish I’d have known about/experienced NTH about 6 months earlier than I did. But a great lesson and now I know better. Doesn’t mean I won’t buy another Oris or even a Formex, It just wouldn’t be because I thought they were “better”. It would be because I liked the design of the watch.


I always try to be as fair-minded as I can when involved in online discussions about this stuff...

I realize that for some (many?), the manufacturers' stated specs count for more than anything I might say about our actual experience with the movements. So, I understand if someone just wants to compare stated specs, and if so, those numbers are an objective way to justify spending more for one watch than another, perhaps.

I believe our quality stands up to watches which cost a lot more, but I think there's an upper limit, surely. If someone says a Tudor (or whatever) is higher quality, I wouldn't argue, generally. At 7x the cost, I'd hope it would be nicer, in some way, hopefully a very noticeable way.

Without mentioning names, I'm in the midst of an email exchange with someone from a brand based in Switzerland, about production costs. I'm being told that producing a case or bracelet in Switzerland costs 4x-6x what it would to produce that same component (I assume to the same standards) in China. That's about what I expected. 

Labor rates there are obviously higher too, about 10x-11x, so that would extend to assembly, QC, etc.

I'd never say that a more expensive watch isn't a nice watch, and it may even be a nicer watch. But just looking at the difference in production costs, I have to think someone would need to spend at least 5x more, and probably more like 6x-7x more, to get something that is noticeably "nicer", just because it's "Swiss". 

The person I'm speaking to said he believes it's cheaper to manufacture in Germany than Switzerland, which I suppose would support the many fans of German brands, if they say the German brands seem to offer better bang for the buck than the Swiss brands. 

He didn't say how much cheaper, but it makes me think it's worth pursuing that information, if the quality is otherwise the same, and the prestige isn't any less.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just realized I confused myself, with all the LJP talk. 

While the G100 movement appears to be based on the Miyota 9015, the $330 price difference is between the LJP and the Sellita SW200, not between the 9015 and the G100. I think my initial understanding was that AnOrdain increased retail prices by $350 over a previous iteration of the same model, which I thought used a 9015. I may have misunderstood some of the discussion about it.

I don't know what AnOrdain is paying for the movements, so I don't know if that cost difference (the $330) is reasonable or not. But my hunch would be that AnOrdain is smart enough not to use a different markup for one versus the other, because why would they? As such, I would assume that the retail price difference is a reflection of their production cost difference. 

If anything, they might be sacrificing a bit of margin on the LJP models, if they're buying those movements in low enough numbers that it drives their costs higher.

Again, that potential production cost difference by itself doesn't really answer the question, "is it worth it". I personally don't think the SW200 is worth more than the 9015, even though I'm sure it costs more.

I really think people should consider the difference in the specs of the two movements, and consider what the long-term maintenance costs are expected to be, if they want to know whether the price difference is worth it.

Reading one of the recent threads about it, it's interesting to see how many prefer the SW200 over the LJP, often citing the reliability of the SW200, or poo-pooing the LJP as just being a gussied-up, "Swiss-ified" version of the 9015. 

I find that a bit amazing, and depressing. The SW200 is a clone of a 40 year old design, itself an evolution of a 60 year old design, with a dubious reputation for reliability. The 9015 is a 10 year old design, more elegant, state-of-the-art by comparison, with an outstanding reputation for reliability. 

The LJP appears to be a significantly improved version of the 9015. It's not just "decorated". It appears several changes were made, all of which would seem to be quantifiable improvements with practical value. What's not to like about it?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I just realized I confused myself, with all the LJP talk.
> 
> While the G100 movement appears to be based on the Miyota 9015, the $330 price difference is between the LJP and the Sellita SW200, not between the 9015 and the G100. I think my initial understanding was that AnOrdain increased retail prices by $350 over a previous iteration of the same model, which I thought used a 9015. I may have misunderstood some of the discussion about it.
> 
> ...


While I don't plan on going on the hunt for a new watch with the G100 just "cuz swiss Miyota", if I was given the option to choose between an SW200 or the G100 in a watch I truly like and want, I'd pony up extra for the LJP. Why? Because it _is_ a gussied up and improved 9015.

If AnOrdain put out a 41-42mm with that killer fumé enamel with a G100, I may not be able to get my wallet out fast enough.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> What's not to like about it?


It's Swi$$...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'd have a hard time paying more, for a new Swiss workhorse movement, than old, and especially paying a premium for an upgraded 9015, since I don't have an issue with them in the first place.

It's all good - more commodity movement makers are always welcome - just that in my world, paying a premium to essentially beta-test a new movement is just not where I'm at.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I must say I'm surprised to see someone in Oz paying attention to US football. Are you an ex-pat American, or does the NFL hold some morbid curiosity for foreigners?


Well Doc, we are most intrigued by a game that is ostensibly called "football" where the ball is only "footed" a fraction of the time, and by only one or two members of the team.

Furthermore all plays are choreographed in advance and backs are never forwards and forwards never backs. Two teams in one... quite a curiosity? 

As opposed to Australian "chaos" rules football where at the very least every player passes the ball by foot at least 50% of the time, you can be asked to play any position at any time and have to be able to do all things..tackle, pass, catch, run, smother, defend, attack and score.

I had an American phys ed teacher in high school so we learnt how to play "gridiron" in class hence my interest. Sadly, back then the Oakland Raiders were quite successful so I've been stuck supporting them ever since! 

I also spend a lot of time in Canada so easy access to coverage. That's why I'm stuck supporting the Canucks...

I'm not having a lot of luck with my teams these days.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

@docvail - so since it only costs $90 to build a China-made watch, it would cost $450-630 to make it in Switzerland. You’re still making money selling them at $700, right?

-ducks the virtual head smack-


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

One of my modded NTH Subs that may inspire a new model of its own.......










This is a Barracuda blue dial with an Amphion blue bezel and gilt sword hands on an aftermarket Oyster bracelet with a glidelock clasp and 20-16mm taper. I kept trying to persuade Doc to make one but gave up and made my own. 











I am intrigued to see if an official version of a modern blue gilt Amphion will become a reality. 


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Talking of modded NTH Subs, I cannot remember if I showed this picture before. 










The Santa Cruz now has sword hands from the Amphion, the Santa Fe has an Oberon bezel and skeleton Snowflake hands, the Barracuda has the Amphions bezel and some gilt sword hands, which leaves the Amphion with all the leftover parts with the Barracuda bezel and the Santa Cruz hands. 

I am considering selling the Amphion as I never wear it, especially as it has all the bits I don’t like from everything else . What do you all think of that one?

The only one I have not modded (yet!) is my blue Odin, however I am still considering a bezel swap on that one, and I have changed the strap to a rubber one .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> Talking of modded NTH Subs, I cannot remember if I showed this picture before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love what you've done to the Santa Cruz... those hands are killer... I'll have to get you to do mine

I'm also a huge fan of the skeleton hands on that Santa Fe.

Also, are you able to mod the case and stretch it to 42mm? That would be the bees knees!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> @docvail - so since it only costs $90 to build a China-mad watch, it would cost $450-630 to make it in Switzerland. You’re still making money selling them at $700, right?
> 
> -ducks the virtual head smack-
> 
> ...


That's an interesting theory. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> That's an interesting theory.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Not really. It's complete hooey, actually. Anyone that tries to run a business on margins even close to that thin is going to get some really bad news in a hurry.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Atticus Pharos Tuesday
















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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

…to be followed by an #NTHuesday #NTHresher!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I'd have a hard time paying more, for a new Swiss workhorse movement, than old, and especially paying a premium for an upgraded 9015, since I don't have an issue with them in the first place.
> 
> It's all good - more commodity movement makers are always welcome - just that in my world, paying a premium to essentially beta-test a new movement is just not where I'm at.


See, that's an interesting take on it, which I understand, even though I see it differently.

On the one hand, people view the 2824-2 and SW200 as "tried and true", because they've been around for so long, and are so ubiquitous, or whatever. But at the same time, many of those same people will offer up anecdotal tales of hand-winding problems, or other problems with them. I've had watchmakers tell me they assume the ETA's will have a 5% defect rate, and that the Sellita's would be a bit higher.

Meanwhile, the LJP appears to be an evolution (improved version) of the 9015, which has been around for 10 years. That, to me, seems long enough to draw some conclusions about them, perhaps enough to apply the same "tried and true" label, yet without rampant tales of common issues with them.

The question raised by your assessment is this - does the LJP deserve to inherit some of the 9015's reputation for reliability? And also - how much is the Swissification (and legitimate improvements) worth? Is the LJP worth more than the Sellita, by $330?

I really can't answer those questions for myself, much less for anyone else. But if given a choice between a Sellita, or the LJP, even for ~$300 more (in a an almost $3k watch), then I think I might gravitate towards the LJP.

Why?

Well...for one thing, it appears to be a better movement, all around, based purely on the specs. And, while I wouldn't be shocked if it does NOT prove as reliable as the 9015, I don't think we should assume it won't be, or that it won't be at least as reliable as the Sellita.


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

Anybody have a preference on bezel inserts?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> Anybody have a preference on bevel inserts?
> 
> View attachment 16374609
> View attachment 16374610


Personally, I like the original insert better.

But what do I know...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> See, that's an interesting take on it, which I understand, even though I see it differently.
> 
> On the one hand, people view the 2824-2 and SW200 as "tried and true", because they've been around for so long, and are so ubiquitous, or whatever. But at the same time, many of those same people will offer up anecdotal tales of hand-winding problems, or other problems with them. I've had watchmakers tell me they assume the ETA's will have a 5% defect rate, and that the Sellita's would be a bit higher.
> 
> ...


Let me expand a bit...

If it is a new Swiss movement, or even just new Swiss manufacture of an existing/upgraded design, doesn't matter - I don't put much weight on Swiss-ness for the sake of "Swiss." (Except cheese. Nothing better for fondue than a good Emmentaler / Gruyere blend. Fight me.) 

I mean, good, glad to see another commodity movement maker in the game, but on the consumer end, what benefits over traditional Swiss movements that would justify such a price increase on the retail end of things? Now if they get to a point where they are cheaper than ETA/Selitta, then we're talking.

But in the meantime, I'm also not at all unhappy with a standard Miyota 9015. In my world, there's nothing which really justifies paying more for "an upgraded 9015," since the 9015 already does everything I need a movement to do. And again, not interested in paying a premium because "Swiss."

Accuracy: It's rated more accurate? Great, but I don't have an issue with 9015 accuracy.
Power reserve: Longer? Great! Don't care.
Longevity and longer service interval: OK, got my attention... but I've not heard this about this movement, so...?
Reliability: Unknown. We can make assumptions, conflations, and inferences - all pointing toward good things - but until manufacturing gears up and true commodity movements are on-wrist of thousands+ consumers...
More decorated: Cool! Don't care...

Do we know the dimensional specs? Only thing that would really do it for me is a thinner, smaller movement. Put it in a 37mm x 44m case at 9mm or less thickness in a knockout design, and then I start listening. Another 38mm+ release at 10mm+? Yawn...

What's it do that much better that begs a premium price over A) ETA 2824 / Selitta SW200, or especially B) Miyota 9015? Also to consider: in other opinions, will this ever be anything more than "Well, it's a Japanese movement, at heart, even if they are cheating it as Swiss..." by the Swiss movement uber-alles snobs? 

Bottom line: Even if it works out long term to be have better reliability than Miyota, Miyota reliability is such that is this even an issue worth the premium? If reliability and robustness trumps Swiss workhorse movements, again, is it worth a premium and will that even matter to Swiss movement snobs?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

juskiewrx said:


> Anybody have a preference on bevel inserts?
> 
> View attachment 16374609
> View attachment 16374610


Prefer top illustration with bezel all matchy-matchy to lume on the dial.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Personally, I like the original insert better.
> 
> But what do I know...


You gave us this power. You did this.









It was, wasn't it? Or did you fold to consumer demand? I don't remember.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Let me expand a bit...
> 
> If it is a new Swiss movement, or even just new Swiss manufacture of an existing/upgraded design, doesn't matter - I don't put much weight on Swiss-ness for the sake of "Swiss." (Except cheese. Nothing better for fondue than a good Emmentaler / Gruyere blend. Fight me.)
> 
> ...


I get all that, and don't disagree with any of it, per se...

What struck me about your earlier post is the mention of "beta-testing", as if the LJP is a completely new calibre design, without anyone having any ability to draw any conclusions, reasonable or otherwise, about its future reliability.

Don't mistake me - having been burned, twice, using a calibre that was supposed to be reliable, but wasn't as reliable as it was supposed to be, I think they need to be beta-tested before we assume anything about their reliability.

My point was, it's not really exactly that (a completely new calibre, in need of long-term / widespread user testing), if it's an evolution of the 9015. 

I don't think it's logical to assume it will be as reliable as the 9015, since there are some design changes to the calibre. And perhaps if the movement is assembled in Switzerland, that could be WORSE than wherever 9015's are assembled. But it's not entirely illogical to think it MIGHT be as reliable as the 9015, which is more reliable than the SW200.

And that's the only alternative with AnOdain, as far as I know - it's one of two Sellita calibres, or the LJP. The 9015 isn't one of the available choices there.

Now, if you were making the above argument to ME, if I were here asking for input on whether or not I should "upgrade" to the LJP from the 9015, that argument would be more supported, I think, for all the reasons you point out.

And, as it happens, we do know the movement's dimensional specs - it's the same thickness as the ETA 2824-2 / SW200, which is thicker than the 9015, so we wouldn't be able to maintain the same case thinness, which is a consideration, for some, perhaps many.

I think it's valid for anyone here to shrug at "Swiss", for its own sake. I agree. 

But the water gets muddied (I think) by the LJP's quantifiable improvements over the 9015. If, let's say, the LJP isn't just more accurate, but also has a longer PR (both of which are true), and it ALSO has a less-noisy rotor (still to be determined), and it has any other appreciable improvements, and we don't start hearing tales of woe regarding its reliability, then I think it's fair to say the movement is worth more than the 9015, on those merits, regardless of "Swiss".

Is it worth more than the SW200? I'd say yes, for all the same reasons. It appears to be better all around.

How much more? I don't know. Can't say. Don't have enough info. But I totally get that if someone is happy with the 9015 (as I am, and you are), or the SW200, then even with quantifiable improvements, the higher price may not be justified, if we don't see any practical value in them.

As you say (and I completely agree) - the 9015 is just so outstanding as it is, it's hard to say we need it to be a little bit better, if that little bit comes at a substantial cost increase.

Can we say the same about the SW200? I'm not as certain.

I just come back to the "Devil I know" analysis. I don't have any interest in Sellita movements, having heard what I have about them (which is to say, they're reputedly less reliable than ETA's). And I know 9015's are very reliable. Given the choice of a movement which is an improved 9015, even for a 10% increase in the cost of the watch, I might opt for the LJP, if the only other choice is a Sellita.

All of which is why I confused myself - I think it's inevitable that we'll compare it to the 9015, even if the 9015 isn't available as a choice in the scenario under consideration. Like you, I'd take a 9015 at a lower price, readily, but I might take the LJP over a Sellita, even at a price that is also higher than the Sellita, if that's my only other option.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You gave us this power. You did this.
> View attachment 16374638
> 
> 
> It was, wasn't it? Or did you fold to consumer demand? I don't remember.


Honestly, if I had the money and could rationalize the expense, I'd pay a programmer to create a configuration wizard on the site, so people could combine whatever bezel insert with whatever dial/handset combo, rather than telling people "screw you, that's what photoshop is for."

For now, though...screw you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> It was, wasn't it? Or did you fold to consumer demand? I don't remember.


I missed the question...

I'd need to create a graph showing my increasing desire to not get bogged down dealing with minutiae (like bezel insert replacement requests) along the X axis, and my decreasing patience with people saying "micros can't supply replacement parts" along the Y axis, and a third axis (Z?) showing my advancing knowledge of how easy the bezel inserts really are to replace, as well as a fourth axis (?) showing my increased understanding of my own parts cost vs potential sale value, if we want to find the nexus, which would be the point at which it became obvious to me that simply stocking inserts and making them available for purchase on demand made more sense than what I was doing.

This lady gets it...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

juskiewrx said:


> Anybody have a preference on bezel inserts?
> [...]


Line on line (vernier style) has the tendency to emphasize alignment imperfections, and there are a lot of tolerances to mitigate between dial and bezel insert (ink to dial to movement to movement holder to case to bezel to insert to ink).
Also, the rather long lines on the dial make it visually busy to me, I'd prefer the bezel to have minute marks only for the first fifteen or twenty minutes.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

juskiewrx said:


> Anybody have a preference on bezel inserts?
> 
> View attachment 16374609
> View attachment 16374610


2nd pic 👍🏻


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I get all that, and don't disagree with any of it, per se...
> 
> What struck me about your earlier post is the mention of "beta-testing", as if the LJP is a completely new calibre design, without anyone having any ability to draw any conclusions, reasonable or otherwise, about its future reliability.
> 
> ...


Ah, right, the beta-testing bit... not disagreeing it _should_ be a decent movement. But new production, teething issues, mass-produced movement from a specialty movement manufacturer...

I'm unfamiliar with LJP, since apparently, they specialize in higher end movements. Although Zelos did a halo model, the Mirage, with a LJP 8-day PR movement.

So they must know what they are doing. They should be able to do a good job of it. If it's basically next gen 9015, equivalent to, say, 2892/SW300, then we might assume solid foundation, with extra on top of that.

But still... New movement, new production line. Seems like a mass-market movement from a company which has a boutiquey whiff about it. You'd think things would be right with 2824/SW200/11-1, since those companies have been making them forever...

Hopefully LJP's Citizen overlords will mean good things, productionwise.

If a brand is selling me something, with a warranty, no reason not to give it a go. But if the watches offered are same-old, same-old at a higher price...? Meh.

I'd just as soon get an anOrdain with an SW200 in it, at a cheaper price - devil you know. And considering retail markup, would I be more apt to shell out $2k for an LJP-powered Sinn 556 or Monta Triumph? Nope.

Who knows. Maybe there will be glowing reviews about it, which will make me reconsider. And if it is dimensionally identical to 2824/SW200, a PT5000 would also fit, should one crap out...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone interested in a v.1 DevilRay, with Swiss movement, 5-link bracelet (unworn), and expansion clasp? There's one for sale (not my listing) here:









SOLD: NTH DEVIL RAY - Orange Dial/No Date - $450


Up for sale is my LNIB NTH Devil Ray v1 w/ orange dial and no date. This is the original model released with the upgraded STP1 movement and 5 link ’tank tread’ bracelet. The bracelet has never been sized, and still in plastic wrap. 500m water resistance, STP1-11 automatic movement, sapphire...




www.watchuseek.com


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

It's a nice day for a white Devil Ray
It's a nice day to start again…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Line on line (vernier style) has the tendency to emphasize alignment imperfections, and there are a lot of tolerances to mitigate between dial and bezel insert (ink to dial to movement to movement holder to case to bezel to insert to ink).
> Also, the rather long lines on the dial make it visually busy to me, I'd prefer the bezel to have minute marks only for the first fifteen or twenty minutes.


I've never heard anyone refer to bezel markings as "vernier style". I wasn't even familiar with the term, and had to Google it: 

"ver′ni-ėr, n. a contrivance for measuring very small intervals, consisting of a short scale made to slide along a graduated instrument."

So, that's my one new thing learned today.

I'd think the same potential problems of alignment would apply equally, regardless of how the minute markers on the bezel are designed, be they lines, dots, squares, or whatever, though I can see how long, thin lines might make any misalignment more noticeable.

I think you might prefer our bezel inserts without any minor minute markers, like the inserts used with the Nacken Modern or Barracudas.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Ah, right, the beta-testing bit... not disagreeing it _should_ be a decent movement. But new production, teething issues, mass-produced movement from a specialty movement manufacturer...
> 
> I'm unfamiliar with LJP, since apparently, they specialize in higher end movements. Although Zelos did a halo model, the Mirage, with a LJP 8-day PR movement.
> 
> ...


All valid points.

We had issues with the Sea-Gull ST19, despite its reputation for being reliable, and the fact Sea-Gull had been making them for decades. Until today, I never thought about that aspect of it (how long they'd been in production), only the wide gap between reputation and reality.

Conversely, the STP1-11 was "new", even though I assumed Fossil / STP had simply bought a Chinese movement maker, lock, stock, and barrel, and just moved operations to Switzerland. It was also reputed to be reliable, but we found it was less so.

Without naming names, I've been keeping tabs on a thread about another brand's apparent problems with their new, in-house movement, which some have suggested is also a gussied-up Chinese calibre. 

Justin from Monta made it clear to me that they stopped using Eterna movements because of their failure rate.

Even with Miyota, things aren't guaranteed. While our failure rate on them is generally 1 in 1,000 (0.1%), we did get a bad batch back in 2016, with a 3% defect rate in 500 pieces.

So, there is a very logical counter-argument to be made (counter to mine), in support of choosing the SW200 over the G100.

Since you mentioned the PT5000 - someone in another thread said he preferred a SW200 over a 9015 because if the SW200 ever broke down, he could drop in a PT5000 for cheap. I thought that was astounding, the idea of preferring a Swiss movement over a Japanese movement because the plan was to replace it with a Chinese movement. 

It makes me wish the G100 had the same dimensions as the 9015..."If my LJP ever craps out, I can drop in a 9015..."


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I've never heard anyone refer to bezel markings as "vernier style". I wasn't even familiar with the term, and had to Google it:
> 
> "ver′ni-ėr, n. a contrivance for measuring very small intervals, consisting of a short scale made to slide along a graduated instrument."
> 
> ...


Huh. I always knew the kind of slidey-caliper favored by most watch geeks as a vernier caliper, but did not realize it could be applied to polar/curved/round scales, too. 

NTH thread: come for the watches, stay for the vocab lessons...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

So strange, I come for the lessons (Doc's insight into the industry) and stay for the watches.

The eye is really good at spotting offsets or kinks when two lines meet, and a blobby dot is kind of good for hiding "misalignment" a little bit.
I am not a stickler for "perfect" alignment or saying that brand X watches are bad quality because hands don't hit the marks, but unfortunate design can emphasize the struggles the QC team has... hence quotation marks around "misalignment".

Once I have time, and figured out access, I will add minute marks to the chamfered edge of the internal bezel of my Antilles- only the first 15 min. That would be a great improvement for my kind of use: eggs, pasta, and how much TV for the kids...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> So strange, I come for the lessons (Doc's insight into the industry) and stay for the watches.
> 
> The eye is really good at spotting offsets or kinks when two lines meet, and a blobby dot is kind of good for hiding "misalignment" a little bit.
> I am not a stickler for "perfect" alignment or saying that brand X watches are bad quality because hands don't hit the marks, but unfortunate design can emphasize the struggles the QC team has... hence quotation marks around "misalignment".
> ...


The good news is that the inserts are just held in place with adhesive. A quick hit with a heat gun will loosen that adhesive, enough to nudge a slightly mis-aligned bezel where you want it.

I recommend wearing gloves or an oven mitt while nudging.

Funny you mention the Antilles...

The original v.1 design had little lume squares on the beveled surface of the internal bezel. As far as I can remember, my OEM never mentioned anything about any problems related to them. 

The only thing I remember is an earlier discussion with them, during the design phase, regarding needing to make the inner bezel flat, not beveled inward, because of the difficulty in printing lume on an inward beveled surface, which I now suppose should have stopped us from doing exactly that with those little lume squares, but for some reason, it didn't.

I can't remember if the v.1's were delayed or not, or if so, why that might have been. I don't remember us getting any v.1's with any alignment issues.

But when we were making the v.2's, apparently it was a BIG problem to get the numbers on the top surface and the little lume squares printed correctly, so that everything would line up with the dial, causing us major production delays, and leading to the complete removal of those lume plots when we did the second release of the v.2's.

I still don't entirely understand what the challenge is, inasmuch as I've seen other watches with lume on the surface of an inward-beveled internal bezel. The only understanding I have is that it has something to do with the relatively low viscosity of liquid lume, before it dries, compared with ink or paint, and that it will run off the surface. Or maybe it's just a limitation with pad printing.

I'm not positive, but I think the lume on our external bezels is applied by hand, not a pad printer (the way the dials are printed with lume), and mixed with something, like a sealant, to keep it from running while it's drying. 

I may be wrong. It may be that pad printing works fine for an outward beveled surface, just not an inward beveled surface. I don't really understand how pad printing works, even after seeing it done.

I wouldn't recommend dis-assembling your Antilles, or trying to customize the bezel as you described.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I've never heard anyone refer to bezel markings as "vernier style". I wasn't even familiar with the term, and had to Google it:
> 
> "ver′ni-ėr, n. a contrivance for measuring very small intervals, consisting of a short scale made to slide along a graduated instrument."
> 
> ...


This nearly broke me. Vernier, that’s a good term!











Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> This nearly broke me. Vernier, that’s a good term!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like Notorious B.I.G. Biggy Smalls said, mo' lines, mo' problems...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Like Notorious B.I.G. Biggy Smalls said, mo' lines, mo' problems...


IF I were to make a dozen for sale, I’d be paying myself a rather few coins per watch. QC nightmare!


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

captainmorbid said:


> This nearly broke me. Vernier, that’s a good term!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What? They couldn't get minute markings into that inner circle... clearly not trying hard enough. 

Boy, that's a busy watch! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Red PeeKay said:


> What? They couldn't get minute markings into that inner circle... clearly not trying hard enough.
> 
> Boy, that's a busy watch!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Here the effect is kind of intentional - the marks are on three different planes, so unless you peek from right above the hands' axis, the lines will look off. See area at 12 o'clock.

Edit: to be clear, this massive vernierfication (don't look that up) is looking good, but it's a style decision, not necessity to cram functionality into the watch.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

VH944 said:


> Here the effect is kind of intentional - the marks are on three different planes, so unless you peek from right above the hands' axis, the lines will look off. See area at 12 o'clock.
> 
> Edit: to be clear, this massive vernierfication (don't look that up) is looking good, but it's a style decision, not necessity to cram functionality into the watch.


Well, it was very intentional. I tried every shape of crystal before settling on flat, I was trying to limit parallax causing the damn thing to look unaligned after taking it apart 5 times just to get it straight. The next best crystal shape for this many linear components was a single dome, sadly the transition from crystal to bezel insert was too abrupt, but it did creat some interesting distortions. The worst was double dome, it looked great dead on, but a change of angle produced the double dome effect of creating a gap in the linear flow from bezel to hour markers.

The more mods that I build, the more I experiment with composition, the more I appreciate the work that goes into designing and producing watches at a scale large enough to sell. 











Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Back to 9 (nine) degree windchill for a couple days…before 60s again 😂


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Zelos's new Spearfish release will be with the new SJP movement, which they are marketing, including right there on the caseback.











There's one model planned for release I really like and would consider... if I needed any more watches, at this point... copper dial with 12hr bezel, yo. Price on these? $650.

Now. Zelos is known for original designs at low prices. Largely why Elshan's releases sell out ridiculously quick. I believe he upped production quantities to deal with insta-sell-out issues, but there are still some particular colorways which always sell out quick, while some languish a bit. Zelos is poster-child for "could easily raise prices for greater profit." THIS IS NOT ABOUT ZELOS V. NTH PRICING / VFM. If that's where you want to take this, I would invite you to stand on your head in a bucket full of cat urine for slightly more time than it would take you to drown.

In any case, $650 for the spearfish with the new SJP movement. Marketed as a refinement of the Swordfish case, but the case has a decidedly different look - on the manufacturing end, a new case, with maybe some common bits like crystal, bezel, crown, and caseback dimensions. 

Consider the Mako V3. Miyota 9015 movement in an existing case. Last run of steel version, price was $500. 

650/500 = 1.3

So a SJP-powered NTH? 
1.3 * 725 = 950 (rounded up from 942.50)...?

I know my logic is faulty on this one, even if the math works out. Zelos is already not playing on the same markup scale as NTH, so that ratio might obviously not hold, depending on Elshan's markup based on the movement cost.

But basically a $1k NTH. 

Just not finding that much value in the SJP movement, at this point, to pay that kind of premium for it. Same as I wouldn't do $2k for a Sinn or Monta, where the current retail price is closer to $1500 (Sinn 556A @ $1510; Monta Triumph @ $1700).


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Omegafanboy said:


> One of my modded NTH Subs that may inspire a new model of its own.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you mind sharing the bracelet and clasp you're using? I'd like to look into purchasing. Thanks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Zelos's new Spearfish release will be with the new SJP movement, which they are marketing, including right there on the caseback.
> 
> View attachment 16378912
> 
> ...


I assume that "Swiss Made" marking on the rotor only applies to the movement, not the whole watch, given the price.

Without searching for current pricing on 2824-2's (assuming I could get them), or SW200's, my hunch is the LJP wholesale pricing is similar. It could even be better than ETA's / Sellita's, considering the volume Elshan is likely buying. 

So, the Spearfish pricing seems on par for Zelos, which is to say, usually ~20%-30% lower than where most brands would be, selling the same thing.

One of my retailers also sells Zelos. He estimates Zelos is selling >5k watches per year. I believe it. Web analytics suggest the Zelos site gets ~250k hits per month, which is a lot for a "micro". More power to him if he can manage it well.

I'd love to know if he has staff, and how many. I'm not sure my current team could effectively manage that sort of production and sales volume, with the same variety of designs. If he's doing most of the work himself, which seems to be the case, the dude's a machine.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I assume that "Swiss Made" marking on the rotor only applies to the movement, not the whole watch, given the price.
> 
> Without searching for current pricing on 2824-2's (assuming I could get them), or SW200's, my hunch is the LJP wholesale pricing is similar. It could even be better than ETA's / Sellita's, considering the volume Elshan is likely buying.
> 
> ...


I don't know if he has staff, but I know he works with other micros like vilhelm (released 2 versions of the Elemental watch which had the crazy ceramic/carbon/titanium combo with an ETA under 1k and then released the Prism titanium watch also ETA, which I have both) Another Singapore brand that he is a partner with in some respect. 

So doing his own thing, then have a hand in other's is mind boggling if he is indeed a one man show.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Zelos's new Spearfish release will be with the new SJP movement, which they are marketing, including right there on the caseback.
> 
> View attachment 16378912
> 
> ...


Very interesting indeed. Pricing is fair. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

JMSpivey said:


> Do you mind sharing the bracelet and clasp you're using? I'd like to look into purchasing. Thanks.


I believe this one was from Carlywet on Aliexpress. There are lots of 20mm Oyster bracelets to choose from, I got the one with the single fold expansion rather than glide-lock. Alternatively Hengrc also sell similar products that I have tried. They should all come in under $20 each.

I have tried a few different versions and found some work with the NTH's and some don't. Sorry I can't provide a link as I bought them 3 or 4 years ago and the order reference has gone from my account history. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Unbelievable.

So...apparently I missed a VM from someone at FedEx last week, about our box shipment. I just called her back. She tells me the case was transferred to another agent. She couldn't locate his phone number, or transfer me, but she gave me his email.

I just emailed him, and got an auto-reply, saying he's out of the office with no access to email, along with a list of four people to forward messages to.

So I emailed all four of them, and immediately got back auto-replies from three of them, saying that they too are out of the office with no access to email.

I called my account rep - his VM says he's out of the office.

Meanwhile, my box factory in China is trying to email me about this, in a state of panic because the shipment might get sent back to them. Those emails were in my junk folder for some reason.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Omegafanboy said:


> I believe this one was from Carlywet on Aliexpress. There are lots of 20mm Oyster bracelets to choose from, I got the one with the single fold expansion rather than glide-lock. Alternatively Hengrc also sell similar products that I have tried. They should all come in under $20 each.
> 
> I have tried a few different versions and found some work with the NTH's and some don't. Sorry I can't provide a link as I bought them 3 or 4 years ago and the order reference has gone from my account history.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Greatly appreciated, thanks!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Unbelievable.
> 
> So...apparently I missed a VM from someone at FedEx last week, about our box shipment. I just called her back. She tells me the case was transferred to another agent. She couldn't locate his phone number, or transfer me, but she gave me his email.
> 
> ...


Ugh..l can’t imagine the stress this causes. I think most of us agree on FedEx issues (or maybe competence). I can’t imagine working for an organization that can’t even manage to properly adjust responsibility during absences. Not having access to email almost suggests they‘re all out hunting or something. Once email became critical, every place I worked provided means to log into email, even when “out of office”.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Ugh..l can’t imagine the stress this causes. I think most of us agree on FedEx issues (or maybe competence). I can’t imagine working for an organization that can’t even manage to properly adjust responsibility during absences. Not having access to email almost suggests they‘re all out hunting or something. Once email became critical, every place I worked provided means to log into email, even when “out of office”.


Here's hoping they're hunting my damned boxes...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16379289


I liked this, then I unliked it, so I could like it again.


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## WatchGuyCanada (Aug 22, 2020)

Quite late to the party but really quite impressed with the Commander 300; it's even better in hand than I could have imagined. A great project by the collective group, something that's scratched the Omega itch.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Enjoying #NTHursday with my new Näcken. 

This is not the same watch I posted last week. It’s an entirely different watch. Possibly the most WIS mod ever.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WatchGuyCanada said:


> Quite late to the party but really quite impressed with the Commander 300; it's even better in hand than I could have imagined. A great project by the collective group, something that's scratched the Omega itch.
> 
> View attachment 16379922


Glad you like it.

It scratched my Omega itch so well I sold mine.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Enjoying #NTHursday with my new Näcken.
> 
> This is not the same watch I posted last week. It’s an entirely different watch. Possibly the most WIS mod ever.


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## WatchGuyCanada (Aug 22, 2020)

docvail said:


> Glad you like it.
> 
> It scratched my Omega itch so well I sold mine.


Seriously, it's a really cool design -- and you could have kept one -- you sold 261 of them!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#fliegerfriday
#REDfriday










Doesn't it suck to notice the dust on the crystal AFTER you've uploaded/posted it?

-Rusty


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Doesn't it suck to notice the dust on the crystal AFTER you've uploaded/posted it?
> 
> -Rusty


Doesn’t bother me nearly as much as when I notice how old my arm looks in photos I post…


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

rpm1974 said:


> Doesn't it suck to notice the dust on the crystal AFTER you've uploaded/posted it?


Dust, dog spit, fingerprint, spilled drink, food stains…that’s WHY I buy dive watches impervious to my slovenly and clumsy ways. Though I do try to catch all the crud prior to photos but squinting in bright sunlight I generally miss something!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

One advantage of a lume shot: it hides the dust!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WatchGuyCanada said:


> Seriously, it's a really cool design -- and you could have kept one -- you sold 261 of them!
> View attachment 16381010


I did keep one, for about a year or two. Just wasn't wearing it enough, saw that they were selling for full retail on the used market, and figured I liked having money more than the watch, so off it went.


----------



## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

My new NMD hook strap fitted on straight away this morning.
That's it now, that's enough straps bought for this one. Oooh wait a minute, that's a nice blue leather...
Doh! 🤦‍♂️


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## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

Antilles is on the wrist today!


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Adapted from the Vincent Price monologue that is heard between the iconic Alice Cooper tunes Devil’s Food and The Black Widow, from the album, Welcome to My Nightmare, 1977

And here, my prize, the Devil Ray.
Isn't she lovely?.. and so awesome. Her dial is fifteen times more beautiful than the others,
You see her appeal is highly neurotoxic, which is to saythat it attacks the central nervous system causing
intense spending, profuse sweating, difficulty waiting, maximum anticipation, violent yearning
and, finally.. SCORE!


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I'm not usually one to swap watches during the day but had to make an exception today after playing around with the watchbox. The Bulova Snorkel II got put away and the DevilRay came out to play. (Or to do laundry.)


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

CuriousBob said:


> I'm not usually one to swap watches during the day but had to make an exception today after playing around with the watchbox. The Bulova Snorkel II got put away and the DevilRay came out to play. (Or to do laundry.)
> View attachment 16386715


Mmmmm, turquoise.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

It’s Monday, and all is well…


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#BlueWatchMonday










-Rusty


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Atticus Icarus










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Atticus Icarus
> 
> View attachment 16388161
> 
> ...


Any progress on fedex and those elusive boxes?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Any progress on fedex and those elusive boxes?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


They cleared customs Friday. Were delivered to Dan's shop this AM.

Dan's starting QC on the most recent delivery of watches (Barracuda and Nacken Modern Blue) this Tuesday. My hope is we'll get everything ready to ship by the end of the week.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...I guess forum software has default tags that get added to all images, or is that Google chrome doing this?

(Seen when I hover over the image.)


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...I guess forum software has default tags that get added to all images, or is that Google chrome doing this?
> 
> (Seen when I hover over the image.)
> 
> View attachment 16388275


I think that’s Google, for accessibility.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I think that’s Google, for accessibility.


Some of them are weird...









"...Clock Finger"

Sounds like a third-rate Bond villain in some India-made knockoff movie.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> "...Clock Finger"
> 
> Sounds like a third-rate Bond villain in some India-made knockoff movie.


Seriously, though...that's a real thing...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> They cleared customs Friday. Were delivered to Dan's shop this AM.
> 
> Dan's starting QC on the most recent delivery of watches (Barracuda and Nacken Modern Blue) this Tuesday. My hope is we'll get everything ready to ship by the end of the week.


But what about the Todaro? Lol, no it's good! I'm stuck at home at covid anyway. I should be back later this week to the office. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> But what about the Todaro? Lol, no it's good! I'm stuck at home at covid anyway. I should be back later this week to the office.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Since we now have the Barracuda and Nacken in, our new and improved plan is to ship all four models to our retailers together. So, as soon as Dan finishes QC on the Barracuda and Nacken, we'll be able to ship them all together.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Getting onto the boat watch swap in progress...


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

So there are at least two dark rum Antilles w/date in Norway! 
I thought at first that this was a statistical outlier, but then again: two watches for 5 million people is like 120 watches for the USA, or 25 in the UK - still in the realm of NTH numbers.


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

VH944 said:


> So there are at least two dark rum Antilles w/date in Norway!
> I thought at first that this was a statistical outlier, but then again: two watches for 5 million people is like 120 watches for the USA, or 25 in the UK - still in the realm of NTH numbers.


VH944 I'm afraid its not exactly "in" Norway, I work on a boat that is owned by a Norwegian company so my flag changes when I am logged onto the forum through the vessel internet. The Antilles has been to Norway more than once though it that is any conciliation.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So this sucks.

I loved Fred. He was the man. 










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> So this sucks.
> 
> I loved Fred. He was the man.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear it. I remember you mentioning him a bunch.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> So this sucks.
> 
> I loved Fred. He was the man.
> 
> ...


Condolences, Doc.

#NTHursday


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## Bpcirillo (Jul 10, 2018)

RotorRonin said:


> Condolences, Doc.
> 
> #NTHursday


What a beaut! Love it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"I wonder what an NTH Sub would look like with a thick-as-hell crystal and a date magnifier."

Said no one, ever.

Or did they?

This makes the Subs 13.1mm thick (not including the magnifier):

















Magnifier:











MMMMAAAAGGGGGNNNNNNNIIIIIIFFFFFFFIIIIIIIEEEEERRRRRR!!!!!









Just playing around.

Or are we?


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> "I wonder what an NTH Sub would look like with a thick-as-hell crystal and a date magnifier."
> 
> Said no one, ever.
> 
> ...


What's that thing Randy Jackson says... "It's a no from me, dawg."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Sorry to hear it. I remember you mentioning him a bunch.





RotorRonin said:


> Condolences, Doc.


Thanks, guys. I feel weird accepting condolences. I wasn't THAT close with Fred, and it's been at least two years since I spoke with him. We weren't family.

It just sucks. I was already going through some stuff recently, so it's another punch in the gut. It's like, I want to shout at the universe, "Quit killing people who make the world more livable!"

Bob Saget is dead. Carrot Top is still around.

Fred really was a super-cool dude. Not just one of the OG microbrand founders, or one of my mentors, but also a musician, who played in some band with a bunch of guys. Apparently they all went way back together.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> What's that thing Randy Jackson says... "It's a no from me, dawg."


Honestly, they look thicker in pics than in real life. In hand, the tall crystal is kind of cool. It makes them more like the original Rolex/Tudor Milsubs from back in the day.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> "I wonder what an NTH Sub would look like with a thick-as-hell crystal and a date magnifier."
> 
> Said no one, ever.
> 
> ...




Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Make that crystal plastic and you have a buyer here but no one else wants that. My one complaint with the Silver watches from a few years ago and the Longines Legend Diver are the sapphire crystals.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> "I wonder what an NTH Sub would look like with a thick-as-hell crystal and a date magnifier."
> 
> Said no one, ever.
> 
> ...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> What's that thing Randy Jackson says... "It's a no from me, dawg."


Ditto, though I know some guys who will go nuts about this!



josiahg52 said:


> Make that crystal plastic and you have a buyer here but no one else wants that. My one complaint with the Silver watches from a few years ago and the Longines Legend Diver are the sapphire crystals.


You’re not alone. Some dudes I know really love acrylic domes!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Ditto, though I know some guys who will go nuts about this!
> 
> 
> 
> You’re not alone. Some dudes I know really love acrylic domes!


Nah, I get it. I like a nice proud box crystal as much as the next guy … just not on the NTH Sub. If you guys knew what we went through to design it to be this thin, you’d understand. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Nah, I get it. I like a nice proud box crystal as much as the next guy … just not on the NTH Sub. If you guys knew what we went through to design it to be this thin, you’d understand.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I dunno what you went through, but… it was worth it, and it has spoiled me. I can’t wear anything over 11mm thick anymore. My SARB feels ridiculous.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

A little bit of lume charged by the Suriname sun 🌞


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> So this sucks.
> 
> I loved Fred. He was the man.
> 
> ...


Oh no!


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

TGIF'NTHF


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Atticus Atticus Atticus









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Atticus Atticus Atticus
> View attachment 16397160
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> Atticus Atticus Atticus
> View attachment 16397160


Exhibit A for Real Photographs of the Actual Watch are a Powerful Sales Tool.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> Exhibit A for Real Photographs of the Actual Watch are a Powerful Sales Tool.


Funny you point that out...










Fresh off the press from Shane at WATCHA.

-Rusty


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#FridayFun = #NTHOrangeFTW!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I'm probably going to get a Téleios w/date . . .


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Good bye, 28!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Pretty









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Atticus Atticus Atticus
> View attachment 16397160
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


This is lovely. That's all I have to say.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Hope the rest of you in the NorthEast are doing alright out there. That turquoise is looking extra sharp today amongst all this snow.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Another day in orange for me!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

It has not yet begun to snow . . .


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

New shoes for the AVG.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Meanwhile, in Idaho...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Meanwhile, in Idaho...
> 
> View attachment 16400616


Meanwhile, in Texas...









But. I'm on a plane to North Carolina tomorrow. So, yeah, that sucks


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Meanwhile, in Idaho...
> 
> View attachment 16400616


"Do you know what the street value of this mountain is? It's pure snow!"

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> "Do you know what the street value of this mountain is? It's pure snow!"
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


What? No one?

It's from the classic '80's movie, 'Better off Dead."










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Sorry Doc, never heard of it.
Here's a sweet watch though:


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> What? No one?
> 
> It's from the classic '80's movie, 'Better off Dead."
> 
> ...


I'm glad we have the same taste in movies. We must speak the international language. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> What? No one?
> 
> It's from the classic '80's movie, 'Better off Dead."
> 
> View attachment 16403328


"I want my two dollars!"


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

West Texas deep freeze incoming…Thursday after rain, snow, sleet Wednesday into the evening…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not sure if anyone outside the NTH or Watch Gecko teams has seen these yet. 

These new DevilRay versions were designed by and will be exclusively available from Watch Gecko, within the next 2-3 weeks.

There will NOT be a no-date version for any of these. They will all be with-date, as pictured.

So...uhm...surprise!































I may need @Watch That Sweep to help my memory with some of the details, but here are the answers to what I expect will be the FAQ's:

1. The X1 lume is sort of a lighter shade of taupe, for a vintage look. It's not exactly "fauxtina". It's this:










2. Other than the different dials, handsets, and bezels, they're the *same as the current gen DevilRays* - same case, same dimensions, same specs, same movement, same bracelet, same clasp, same case back, etc. 

3. Except for the silver version, the indices and hour/seconds hands are polished.

4. The bezel on the brown is the same color we used on the Barracuda Brown. The dial color is not exactly the same as the Barracuda, but it's pretty close. It's this, with a sunburst texture:










5. The blue bezel/dial are the same as the Näcken Modern Blue. The dial is matte (no texture). You know what the Modern Blue looks like? Yeah, same colors.

6. The hour & seconds hands and hour indices of the silver are plated black, like on the white DR from Watch Gecko. The bezel is the same light gray "titanium" color we used on the last Näcken Vintage Black, and the previous white Watch Gecko DevilRay.

I'm expecting the color of the silver dial to look exactly like the previous-gen "Whilver" (what I call "white", because customs officials will flag anything marked "silver", but others have called "silver", because they don't have to argue with customs officials about the difference between "silver" the color and "silver" the precious metal). 

7. The dark gray bezel is "light gun metal". The dial is dark gray, matte (no texture). I don't know what else to say about it. The dial is this color (exactly, this color):










8. Yes, we're all well aware of the comparisons which will be made with Doxa. Let the haters hate.

Feel free to add questions I haven't already anticipated.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

New devilrays look great 









Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

In the category of "unsolicited advice, where even if taken would probably not result in a sale," I do wish the crown on the Devil Ray design was at 4(-ish).


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16404876











Is it really time to replace my trusty Invicta mod? Would I be wearing the new one when fondling in engine bays?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> In the category of "unsolicited advice, where even if taken would probably not result in a sale," I do wish the crown on the Devil Ray design was at 4(-ish).


Meh.

Not an argument or defense of the 3 o'clock position, per se, but only as a consideration thereof - when we put the crown at 3, we can use an off-the-shelf movement with date window at 3 or 6. If we put the crown at 4, then we either have to locate the date at 4, or re-print the date wheels to get the window to 3 or 6.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Somewhat rare white-dialed (full lume) v.1 Antilles on f29.

I'll vouch for the seller. He's not a pervert or anything.

As far as I know.









NTH Antilles White Dial Compressor Dive Watch.


NTH Antilles White Dial Compressor Dive Watch. With an over-abundance of watches and further incoming, the thinning of the fleet continues with this very rare NTH white-dialled Antilles. The watch came direct from NTH and is one of only 50 white dialled versions. The dial is fully lumed...




www.watchuseek.com


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Not sure if anyone outside the NTH or Watch Gecko teams has seen these yet.
> 
> These new DevilRay versions were designed by and will be exclusively available from Watch Gecko, within the next 2-3 weeks.
> 
> ...


I really dig the devilray graphic. Like, a lot. 
Not so much on "Automatic" underneath the NTH logo.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Somewhat rare white-dialed (full lume) v.1 Antilles on f29.
> 
> I'll vouch for the seller. He's not a pervert or anything.
> 
> ...


S'troo, this seller has been vouched by the maker and I as far as I know he's not an anything either................

Wotsa prevert...???

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Not sure if anyone outside the NTH or Watch Gecko teams has seen these yet.
> 
> These new DevilRay versions were designed by and will be exclusively available from Watch Gecko, within the next 2-3 weeks.
> 
> ...


I also like the graphic but not big on the automatic. Not a deal breaker at all, but doesn't put it in my want list like the white DR did. Yes very Doxa heavy feels on this one. Nothing wrong with it. Not in my wheel house this time around (thank goodness).

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Wotsa prevert...???
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


Opposite of a provert.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

NTH Todaro Unboxing


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

The new WG DRs look  to my eye 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

New DevilRays look really really cool. The whole line has been growing on me with the last few releases, but these are the cream of the crop. (Un)fortunately, still feel like they'd be too big for me. So I'll just have to continue to rock this.










Woe is me.

Oh, is it just me who cannot upload any images from the mobile browser (not tapatalk)? All the icons are greyed out.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Ragl said:


> S'troo, this seller has been vouched by the maker and I as far as I know he's not an anything either................
> 
> Wotsa prevert...???
> 
> ...


Alan, I am suprised you are selling this one. I thought you said the blue Scorpene and this Antilles were keepers? 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> Alan, I am suprised you are selling this one. I thought you said the blue Scorpene and this Antilles were keepers?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Could easily be talked out of it as it is such a terrific piece and there is a very real attachment, but I haven't worn it in ages and I must lighten up the collection; so it's "get the most painful one out of the way first" time........

I might still change my mind..........

All the best Sam.

Cheerz,

Alan


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ragl said:


> Could easily be talked out of it as it is such a terrific piece and there is a very real attachment, but I haven't worn it in ages and I must lighten up the collection; so it's "get the most painful one out of the way first" time........
> 
> I might still change my mind..........
> 
> ...


That IS a gorgeous watch....


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Oh, is it just me who cannot upload any images from the mobile browser (not tapatalk)? All the icons are greyed out.


All of the.pictures I've posted the past couple of years have been through a mobile browser. No problems and soooo much easier than crapatalk. Sometimes, I think I've seen the grey buttons and I have to click the gear (settings?) in the lower left of the buttons enable them.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

josiahg52 said:


> All of the.pictures I've posted the past couple of years have been through a mobile browser. No problems and soooo much easier than crapatalk. Sometimes, I think I've seen the grey buttons and I have to click the gear (settings?) in the lower left of the buttons enable them.


^^^ this
Click the gear icon


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

NTH Todaro























Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just learned that "Hodinkee" means "Watch" in Slovak.

Also, "Hodinky" in Czech.


----------



## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Did some say…Devil Ray…in the wild…for today?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I just learned that "Hodinkee" means "Watch" in Slovak.
> 
> Also, "Hodinky" in Czech.


In English it means "marketing shill for brands we sell."


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lume









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Alan, I am suprised you are selling this one. I thought you said the blue Scorpene and this Antilles were keepers?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk





Ragl said:


> Could easily be talked out of it as it is such a terrific piece and there is a very real attachment, but I haven't worn it in ages and I must lighten up the collection; so it's "get the most painful one out of the way first" time........
> 
> I might still change my mind..........
> 
> ...





dmjonez said:


> That IS a gorgeous watch....


I too was surprised to see it for sale. 

Many years back, when I'd see a friend selling one of our watches, I couldn't help wondering what was "wrong" with it. I didn't want to ask, because awkwardness.

I got over it. It's not personal (I hope). It helped when I started selling some from my own collection. "I'm just not wearing it enough" is as good a reason as any, and among my most-used.

Still, though - in my current collection of 16 pieces, about half haven't been worn more than once in the last year, if that. On the one hand, it sometimes feels silly to keep them. But on the other - what's the harm? They're not worth a ton of money if I sold them, and each has "earned" its place by surviving previous culls, for whatever reasons. If I only wear a watch once or twice a year, so be it. I've got shirts I only wear that often, and I don't think about it.

@Ragl - might there be someone in your family who might like it? I found it easier to let my Spectre II go to my son than to consider selling it and likely never seeing it again.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I too was surprised to see it for sale.
> 
> Many years back, when I'd see a friend selling one of our watches, I couldn't help wondering what was "wrong" with it. I didn't want to ask, because awkwardness.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid to count, but I've been through more than 50 watches. Many were "really nice" but most eventually got bumped by others that suited me better. A year ago, I got the collection down to an even dozen, and then realized I could go down to about 4 or 5 and be happy. BUT the expensive few were favorites, and the cheaper ones weren't worth the trouble to sell. And the "affordable" lot in the middle (NTH) were always worn. So.... 
I changed up the straps and made a conscious decision to wear them all. Worked. My three NTH subs are on different straps and get worn for different purposes. Only drawback: Every time I find something that appeals to me, I have something just like it from another brand. For example, Yema has their GMT on a big sale, but it looks a lot like my Glycine. So I just keep looking....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I'm afraid to count, but I've been through more than 50 watches. Many were "really nice" but most eventually got bumped by others that suited me better. A year ago, I got the collection down to an even dozen, and then realized I could go down to about 4 or 5 and be happy. BUT the expensive few were favorites, and the cheaper ones weren't worth the trouble to sell. And the "affordable" lot in the middle (NTH) were always worn. So....
> I changed up the straps and made a conscious decision to wear them all. Worked. My three NTH subs are on different straps and get worn for different purposes. Only drawback: Every time I find something that appeals to me, I have something just like it from another brand. For example, Yema has their GMT on a big sale, but it looks a lot like my Glycine. So I just keep looking....


I hate to mention it, but with the threads about Yema problems, I think you should stick with the Glycine.

I don't exactly go through the same thing, but I have gotten to a point where most watches just don't "wow" me enough to make me want to add them to my collection, and I'm including NTH watches in that. 

Over the last couple years, I've considered adding at least a half dozen pieces that I ultimately decided against, mostly because as much as I liked the designs, I knew I already had a dozen watches I'd wear more often, and half a dozen that weren't being worn enough.

That no-date Todaro @kpjimmy has been posting was our photo sample, and I was considering making it mine until he saved me from myself. Dan has the Barracuda Polar White photo sample that I likewise was considering adding to my collection. I think @CMFord took one of the 2K1 samples I was considering. Rusty got the v.2 Barracuda Vintage Black sample that would have been mine.

Still - I added a v.2 DevilRay, an Azores Blue Curaçao, and an Atticus Icarus since July 2020. It's hard to feel like I'm depriving myself of having the shiny and new. The last watch I sold from my personal collection was May 2020. The last one I gave away was the Spectre II my son got for his 16th this past November.

I feel like my collection is more or less "complete", at least for now.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I hate to mention it, but with the threads about Yema problems, I think you should stick with the Glycine.
> 
> I don't exactly go through the same thing, but I have gotten to a point where most watches just don't "wow" me enough to make me want to add them to my collection, and I'm including NTH watches in that.
> 
> ...


One of the best parts of this hobby, is that just when you think "you've seen it all" there's something else. You guys keep churning out new stuff...

And I agree about Yema, but it's tempting. My Glycine has an early Sellita movement, and I had to have that rebuilt. but it's bullet-proof now. And I also think I "have all the GMTs", other than a Rolex (but there's no way I'm shucking $20k for a watch).


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I feel like my collection is more or less "complete", at least for now.


“For now” being the operative words for all true WIS!

Speaking of the polar Barracuda, I think I remember you said it wasn’t coming back in a v2. Did it not sell as well? I think it’s some of your finest work.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> “For now” being the operative words for all true WIS!
> 
> Speaking of the polar Barracuda, I think I remember you said it wasn’t coming back in a v2. Did it not sell as well? I think it’s some of your finest work.


No final decision on it yet.

I agree it is or was one of the most appealing colorways. They sold very well at first, but then they just stopped.

I think it may be good for a comeback at some point.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> Not sure if anyone outside the NTH or Watch Gecko teams has seen these yet.
> 
> These new DevilRay versions were designed by and will be exclusively available from Watch Gecko, within the next 2-3 weeks.
> 
> ...


They are now listed in Gecko's online store, under WG Exclusives . Batches of 25, immediate exclusivity 😀


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

VH944 said:


> They are now listed in Gecko's online store, under WG Exclusives . Batches of 25, immediate exclusivity 😀


I think you're seeing the 2 earlier no-date WG models maybe? I'm not seeing these 4 new ones? 

I like the root beer DR so I went there to see some pics after your post.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Tanker G1 said:


> I think you're seeing the 2 earlier no-date WG models maybe? I'm not seeing these 4 new ones?
> 
> I like the root beer DR so I went there to see some pics after your post.


Correct. Those are our first two exclusives. 

I'm currently working on listing these 4 new ones so that people can sign up. We'll add images to the listing once we get the samples through, which should be early next week.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

...and I was wondering why the print on the dials was different.. definitely late to the game to know about previous specials, never mind.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

VH944 said:


> ...and I was wondering why the print on the dials was different.. definitely late to the game to know about previous specials, never mind.


Just because we liked the look of it. It mimics the Doxa text placement somewhat.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Lab4Us said:


> Did some say…Devil Ray…in the wild…for today?
> View attachment 16407090
> 
> 
> View attachment 16407091


So nice, definitely the best Devilray version in my opinion, and the white strap really sets it off nicely. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## WatchGuyCanada (Aug 22, 2020)

Hey NTH fans -- thought I'd throw this out here -- any looking to sell their black dial Barracuda with Beads of Rice bracelet? V1 or V2. Pic for attention...


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#whitedialwednesday










-Rusty


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## WatchGuyCanada (Aug 22, 2020)

Date version today...


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Did someone say lume  
White Devilray on new Zuludiver Lunar strap


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Did someone say lume
> White Devilray on new Zuludiver Lunar strap
> View attachment 16410423


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> Not sure if anyone outside the NTH or Watch Gecko teams has seen these yet.
> 
> These new DevilRay versions were designed by and will be exclusively available from Watch Gecko, within the next 2-3 weeks.
> 
> ...


Just seen these on Watchgeko, wow the design is fantastic. My initial thought was the blue or grey but since you pointed out the indices on the silver one wow

And as for the haters who say its a copied design, we'll ain't Doxa a new company knocking out retro homages of classic Doxa watches from the 60s? 

And lastly, are the bezels interchangeable? Would love a two tone silver/light gun grey on my white WG devilray


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Just seen these on Watchgeko, wow the design is fantastic. My initial thought was the blue or grey but since you pointed out the indices on the silver one wow
> 
> And as for the haters who say its a copied design, we'll ain't Doxa a new company knocking out retro homages of classic Doxa watches from the 60s?
> 
> And lastly, are the bezels interchangeable? Would love a two tone silver/light gun grey on my white WG devilray


The bezels are not interchangeable.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Man that silver DevilRay is slick. I couldn't get rid of my turquoise one to make room for it though. Todaro is incoming anyhow. You know, cuz I really needed a 4th sub... Some really awesome stuff coming from NTH lately.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> The bezels are not interchangeable.


No worries

Think these new versions are the best yet


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Just so people know, we've now only got two of the WatchGecko White DevilRays left! 

You also get a free watch roll and two straps with purchase.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

We've just dropped anchor off Trinidad


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

gavindavie said:


> We've just dropped anchor off Trinidad
> 
> View attachment 16411234


I might actually be heading there in the near future for an install at Point Lisas.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

TheBearded said:


> I might actually be heading there in the near future for an install at Point Lisas.


we are a bit up the coast at Chaguaramas, should get alongside tomorrow, though no shore leave allowed d/t COVID restrictions.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday #BCT


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## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Video review of Todaro and Upholder on YT by Marc at Long island.

Todaro rolling with a big dose of coolness.......







Cheerz,

Alan


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Ragl said:


>


Let's talk hand length for a moment. This is not a critique of NTH models (although there's necessarily some of that, only positive...); if anything this is a rant about WIS obsessions, particularly those who whinge about hand length.

Forever and a day, I hear complaints about how the Sinn 556 has short hands. With the 556i, I can see it and somewhat agree. Not that they are too short, but that some might see it that way.










Whole lotta space there, between the hour hand and the 10 index, for sure. Also the minute and second don't touch the minute track, but there's really zero complaints where legibility is concerned. 

And the short hour hand... where the current 556 series is revision of the previous-gen 656, the 556A with cardinal arabic indexes, same as the 656, the hour hand starts making sense.










Where the hour hand might be considered too short for the 556i, it works just fine on the 656/556A - the cardinal indexes extend further toward the center of the dial, gap between the hour hand and those 4 indexes is actually quite consistent with gap between the other hands and markers.

Compared to the Scorpene:










Where the hour hand overlaps the cardinal indexes, minute and second hands do the same on the minute track. Definitely addresses the frequent complaint of too short hands on the 556 family. 

Personally, I like both the Sinn and NTH designs. With a nod toward NTH where the hands are also marginally wider and as a result, slightly more angular, and a nod toward Sinn where the hands don't overlap indexes.

And then there's the Todaro...

[ref the Islander vid above with hands at 10:09, and...]











I love the hands, love the layout - especially the minute and second hand, where the tops of the lume frames just before the pointer bits, line up with the inner circumference of the minute track. [chef kiss]

But the hour hand faces the same issues as the Scorpene/556A - too short and it's hanging out in space, too long and it's busting through the arabics, approaching the same length as the minute hand. No way around it, in the upper half of the dial, the hour hand looks too short. Anywhere near the 04 08 indexes, it looks fine. 

Considering the 04 08 arabics and minimal overlap, the hour hand definitely looks like best compromise. But I would also suggest that stock shots with hands at 8:18 might make more sense? Except then the face looks really unbalanced... 

Hard calls. Glad I don't design watches for a living because just working with the layout would drive me nuts, and that's before even considering the WIS "hands too short!!!" crowd.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Upholder with date just ordered from WatchGecko


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Let's talk hand length for a moment... just working with the layout would drive me nuts, and that's before even considering the WIS "hands too short!!!" crowd.


Truth - finding / matching handsets to a dial layout is probably the most difficult part of watch design. 

Some basic hands are available in multiple lengths, which gives us the flexibility to choose exactly which hands we want. Mercedes hands, dauphine hands, and a lot of the pilot-style hands are like that.

But most other handsets we find, they only come in one length, maybe two, if we're lucky. Sometimes we can mix-and-match hours vs minutes, but not always.

We often end up modifying the dial layout to fit the hands we like. But even with the ability to do that, unless you make all the hour markers the same length (like on the Vanguard), the hour hand isn't going to hit all of them perfectly.

It becomes more difficult with applied indices, because of their thickness, and the need for clearance between the hour hand and the index.

With the Todaro and Upholder handsets - we weren't able to mix-and match, so we were locked into using the hands with the lengths they had. Personally, I think the proportions look "right", and I like the way everything lines up, but no doubt some will say there's something not right about them.

C'est la vie.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Atticus Icarus fixes all the flaws (including Short Hand Syndrome) of the Sinn 556i ...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)




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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Avo said:


> Atticus Icarus fixes all the flaws (including Short Hand Syndrome) of the Sinn 556i ...
> View attachment 16412567


Agreed 100%. I considered the Sinn, but preferred the dial, case shape, hands, minute track, and the splash of blue accent color on the Icarus. Like, it appealed to me more in every respect.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> Atticus Icarus fixes all the flaws (including Short Hand Syndrome) of the Sinn 556i ...
> View attachment 16412567


Aww, shucks…

Oh, and there’s this. 










If you like numbers and what-not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

When Watchgeko launched the Lunar velcro straps I instantly thought this one would go well with the Odin, wasn't wrong.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Well, we've had the first of the WatchGecko DevilRays delivered and have managed to get a shot of each for you. 

I'm tentatively setting 16th Feb as the launch date and will keep everyone updated. 

You can sign up to be notified of when these come into stock on the WatchGecko site via the product pages: WatchGecko Exclusive & Limited Edition Watches


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom.










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Pharos Phriday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Well, we've had the first of the WatchGecko DevilRays delivered and have managed to get a shot of each for you.
> 
> I'm tentatively setting 16th Feb as the launch date and will keep everyone updated.
> 
> ...


Damn you watchgeko for making these so accessible. Have a white version but to be perfectly honest these look even better, black or silver hmm.......


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

I was pretty excited about the brown DR without an orange minute hand, but it appears it does have one?


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

1st gen LE


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## Chris Hughes (Dec 5, 2010)

docvail said:


> What? No one?
> 
> It's from the classic '80's movie, 'Better off Dead."
> 
> ...


I WANT MY TWO DOLLARS!!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Who’s ready for the #fridaynightlumebattle? This guy is…










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

I can't wait for my Todaro to show up. I was a bit perplexed about why I hadn't seen a shipping notification all week long but got the message from John with Watchguage this morning explaining the delays. I've been in the trucking industry most of my life and I understand the effect that winter has on logistics so it is what it is.

With that being said, I can't freaking wait for this insanely cool watch to get here. I really love what NTH is doing lately.


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## WatchGuyCanada (Aug 22, 2020)

Saturday snow diver...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#SwiftsureSaturday


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## tsteph12 (Jun 11, 2006)

Guess I’m late to the party. This Swiftsure is the first NTH watch I’ve owned and recently obtained from another forum member. Gotta say that the finishing and overall construction punches well above its price point. Supremely legible at a glance and lume is very good. The bracelet remains unused and thought I’d try it on this Hirsch ‘John’ camo strap.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Lab4Us said:


> #SwiftsureSaturday
> View attachment 16417368


No... surely it's Tikuna Saturday...









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

tsteph12 said:


> Guess I’m late to the party. This Swiftsure is the first NTH watch I’ve owned and recently obtained from another forum member. Gotta say that the finishing and overall construction punches well above its price point. Supremely legible at a glance and lume is very good. The bracelet remains unused and thought I’d try it on this Hirsch ‘John’ camo strap.
> 
> View attachment 16417563
> 
> ...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Red PeeKay said:


> No... surely it's Tikuna Saturday...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm…are you sure that shouldn’t be…from the Eagles, Desperado album, circa 1973?

“It's another tikuna sunrise
This old world still looks the same
Another frame”


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

tsteph12 said:


> Guess I’m late to the party. This Swiftsure is the first NTH watch I’ve owned and recently obtained from another forum member. Gotta say that the finishing and overall construction punches well above its price point. Supremely legible at a glance and lume is very good. The bracelet remains unused and thought I’d try it on this Hirsch ‘John’ camo strap.
> 
> View attachment 16417563
> 
> ...


That is an awesome band that really sets off that Swiftsure!


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Goodnight ladies n germs.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Well, we've had the first of the WatchGecko DevilRays delivered and have managed to get a shot of each for you.
> 
> I'm tentatively setting 16th Feb as the launch date and will keep everyone updated.
> 
> ...


Is the bracelet the same on all these? The black one looks duller with less polish on the center links but it might be the lighting playing tricks with me


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Is the bracelet the same on all these? The black one looks duller with less polish on the center links but it might be the lighting playing tricks with me


Yes it's the same bracelet.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Yes it's the same bracelet.


Do all 4 have the same orange minute hand as pictured? I'm really hoping the Vintage Orange looks like this with matching hands.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

…and now it’s #SwiftsureSunday!


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Tanker G1 said:


> Do all 4 have the same orange minute hand as pictured? I'm really hoping the Vintage Orange looks like this with matching hands.
> View attachment 16418901


Looks like the finished models have an orange minute hand. This is a production error as they should be silver. We'll discuss whether we'll accept or reject these tomorrow.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tanker G1 said:


> Do all 4 have the same orange minute hand as pictured? I'm really hoping the Vintage Orange looks like this with matching hands.
> View attachment 16418901


I'm going to assume that it will NOT have matching handsets.









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Tanker G1 said:


> Do all 4 have the same orange minute hand as pictured? I'm really hoping the Vintage Orange looks like this with matching hands.
> View attachment 16418901


Matching hands looks cool! 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Looks like the finished models have an orange minute hand. This is a production error as they should be silver. We'll discuss whether we'll accept or reject these tomorrow.


Thanks for the reply. I thought something like that might've happened when I saw the second hand was different following the first released images. I was questioning why the orange-tipped second hand would be different between models and not the orange minute hand. I'm sure it'll get resolved but FWIW I love the planned matching hands on the Vintage Orange.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Barracuda Polar
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

kpjimmy said:


> Barracuda Polar
> View attachment 16420828
> View attachment 16420829
> 
> ...


Y'know... I really, really like my Scorpene with Commando bezel, think it is a perfect combo, but this one... I dunno, man, it's in the running to challenge Best Bezel Insert Mod EVAR.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Y'know... I really, really like my Scorpene with Commando bezel, think it is a perfect combo, but this one... I dunno, man, it's in the running to challenge Best Bezel Insert Mod EVAR.


I challenge that assertion 










I put forwards my Santa Fe with Oberon bezel and my Barracuda Blue with Amphion bezel as contenders. I would go as far as saying the Santa Fe should have come out of the factory with that configuration 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> I challenge that assertion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I approve of this post  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Omegafanboy said:


> I challenge that assertion
> 
> 
> 
> ...



🤣

Santa Cruz for sure, and the glamour shot of the Santa Fe provides a convincing argument. Even the Barracuda looks factory-cool. Personal taste, though - fauxtina lume on the Santa Cruz, and gilt details on the Barracuda knock them out of the runningm for tip-top spot, for me. 

I think it was this Santa Cruz where I was like, OMG, blue bezel with white dial is ALL THAT! And when the polar barracuda came out, wouldn't it be cool, if...? And then @kpjimmy did it.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Mockup.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Santa Cruz for sure, and the glamour shot of the Santa Fe provides a convincing argument. Even the Barracuda looks factory-cool. Personal taste, though - fauxtina lume on the Santa Cruz, and gilt details on the Barracuda knock them out of the runningm for tip-top spot, for me.
> 
> I think it was this Santa Cruz where I was like, OMG, blue bezel with white dial is ALL THAT! And when the polar barracuda came out, wouldn't it be cool, if...? And then @kpjimmy did it.


All fair and valid points. Stupidly I meant my Santa Fe, not Santa Cruz, for the bezel mod. I have updated my post accordingly. 

I have actually debated swapping the Santa Cruz bezel for a blue Amphion bezel that I have. For now it only has the Amphion hands, but I actually like the fauxtina lume as it gives a nice colour contrast. If it had used C3 or BGW9 then I suspect the indices would not have had enough contrast against the white dial. I also think that is why that Polar Barracuda looks so good with the blue lume, it stands out nicely. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Bezel schmezel. 










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> I was pretty excited about the brown DR without an orange minute hand, but it appears it does have one?
> View attachment 16414317
> 
> View attachment 16414318


Last minute design change. The hand is orange.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Last minute design change. The hand is orange.


You may need to update the Watchgecko newsletter pictures. They still show the ss hands

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

docvail said:


> Last minute design change. The hand is orange.


Well poop.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> You may need to update the Watchgecko newsletter pictures. They still show the ss hands
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I'll leave that up to Watch Gecko.

@Watch That Sweep


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

/rant...

I hate our local mail carrier. 

We keep getting other people's mail. Sometimes, it's just one piece, for a neighbor. But often enough, it's for someone in some completely different neighborhood, on the other side of town. This happens at least two or three times a week.

Last week, we received 10 pieces of mail for the house next door, on the same day. It's got us worried about what mail we're not getting. Like, for instance, I'm waiting on a check from one of my retailers, which was sent over a week ago. Is it sitting on someone else's kitchen table? Who knows?

So I asked the local post master what we can do about it. He gave me a number to call, apparently the supervisor for the local carriers. I've been calling the number non-stop for the last 10 minutes. Every time I call, it rings 30-40 times, then it just hangs up.

No one picks up. No voice mail. Nothing. It just rings for two or three minutes straight, then click - no more call.

Now I'm calling the local post master again - no answer. It rings for two-three minutes, then click - busy signal.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

docvail said:


> I hate our local mail carrier.


What mail carrier?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> /rant...
> 
> I hate our local mail carrier.
> 
> ...


This is consistant to here as well. I have some things delivered to the office from USPS/Priority Mail. I've had instances where the tracking info says that attempt was made, business was closed. I call the local PO and have to wait for a good 15 minutes of calling again and again until someone answers. I know this is a fact that that the phones do not get answered because at times when I needed to pickup mail from the PO, I hear the phone constantly ring and no one answers, even to say to please hold. It's friggin annoying. Oh the case where I finally got someone on the phone. I gave them the tracking number and told them I am at the office right now and there was no attempt made. There is a receptionist til 3 everyday there so I know they didn't come in. The postperson immediately delivered within 10 minutes. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

It looks like its a Tikuna and caffeine Monday.... life in the slow lane is surely sweet. 

Just chilling out waiting for my boot liners fitting...









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Regarding the USPS, I signed up for something called “informed delivery“. I get a daily email telling me what is “supposed to be“ in my mailbox. Works very well. If something is gone or missing, I know to start looking for it.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

We're friendly with our mail carrier and went to school with the postmaster. Things seem to work out for us... Beyond that, talking candidly with the PM, she's all, "Do you need a job? Know anyone who does? Everyone's hiring..." So there's political shenanigans afoot, at least in our region, labor shortages, in the meantime online shopping is at all time high levels. Something's gotta give. And now they have to deliver 100s of millions of COVID test kits, too. What can go wrong...?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All we want is to receive our mail, and not our neighbors' mail.

Too much to ask?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I wonder if this is what happened to “that guy”…

*Budget spend meeting:

Manager: “Where are we going to cut from?”

Senior Manager: “What’s that guy’s Job?” Points at guy answering phone….


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> Regarding the USPS, I signed up for something called “informed delivery“. I get a daily email telling me what is “supposed to be“ in my mailbox. Works very well. If something is gone or missing, I know to start looking for it.


I have this too. It is a necessity since I'm not quite convinced that my mail carrier knows how to count yet. I literally painted my house number on the driveway like a airport runway and my neighbors still get all my crap in their mailbox.

I'm pretty sure it was free to sign up. I highly recommend it for those who don't have it yet.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

For those with mail issues, is your mail delivered by an actual USPS carrier or a contractor/rural carrier?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> All we want is to receive our mail, and not our neighbors' mail.
> 
> Too much to ask?


In my case I often receive no mail and have to wait for a neighbor to bring it to me


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

josiahg52 said:


> For those with mail issues, is your mail delivered by an actual USPS carrier or a contractor/rural carrier?


Mine is actual USPS. The problem is that since I'm not in a highly populated area, my mailbox is on my across-the-street neighbor's front lawn so that the mail truck only has to go one direction. 

That seems to complicate things no matter how many numbers and arrows I put on the mailbox.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

CuriousBob said:


> Mine is actual USPS. The problem is that since I'm not in a highly populated area, my mailbox is on my across-the-street neighbor's front lawn so that the mail truck only has to go one direction.
> 
> That seems to complicate things no matter how many numbers and arrows I put on the mailbox.


I love the idea of you putting a bunch of neon arrow on your mailbox. That’s just a funny mental image.


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Chances are that if you are consistently getting mail that is not for your address, it is a substitute on your route. Many of them are only concerned with finishing their routes in the often unrealistic times given to them by their supervisors. Unfortunately many supervisors and higher ups are only concerned about times and don’t care about the customer service aspect of the job.

In addition to putting a house number on or near your mailbox, putting the last names of those who live in the house may help you get more of the correct mail. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Whoa. The new GeckoRays are cool.  I haven't been paying attention to the previous models. Can someone spare me the hassle and heartache and go ahead and tell me now that 6.75" wrists need not apply?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

3WR said:


> Whoa. The new GeckoRays are cool.  I haven't been paying attention to the previous models. Can someone spare me the hassle and heartache and go ahead and tell me now that 6.75" wrists need not apply?


I have a 7 even wrist. If you look back through this thread you’ll find lots of posts of me wearing a Devil Ray, though it’s the previous models (white and orange). I find it quite comfortable!

One last caveat, I’ve never worn a Devil Ray on a bracelet so can’t speak to how it wears on a bracelet. Almost all my watches lose their bracelet as soon as they’re removed from their shiny new packaging.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> For those with mail issues, is your mail delivered by an actual USPS carrier or a contractor/rural carrier?


A guy in a USPS truck delivers our mail. So I assume he's an actual USPS carrier.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Whole lot of goodness packed into a 40mm case.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

White Devilray on a bracelet with brushed center links (courtesy of a scotch pad)


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Another Todaro Tuesday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Another Todaro Tuesday
> View attachment 16423015
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


That handset alignment though...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> That handset alignment though...


What about it? Something wrong?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

kpjimmy said:


> What about it? Something wrong?


3-9: OMG, SO BUSY!!! ALL TEH HANDS! ARABIC INDEXES! AUX TEXT!
9-3: Just me, the NTH logo, hanging out here... all by myself...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> 3-9: OMG, SO BUSY!!! ALL TEH HANDS! INDEXES! TEXT
> 9-3: Just me, the NTH logo, hanging out here... all by myself...


That would remind me of a folded tortilla...man I'm getting hungry  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Here's a few more shots of the silver WatchGecko DevilRay. Just like the white model on our first collab, we've gone with a polished black finish on the hands and markers to ensure maximum legibility. 

You can sign up to be notified when it comes into stock here: NTH DevilRay Dive Watch - Vintage Silver - WatchGecko Exclusive


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

I have the original white and I'm glad you went for differing text colour on the inner and outer bezel and only lumed one. Looks cleaner IMO


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Wow, those upcoming D.R. Gecko exclusives look even better this time around. Great photos too!

Has anyone compared with a Doxa 1200 Searambler / Doxa 300 in a side by side? One could even compare with those Doxa knock offs from Maranez or Seestern etc. Trying to determine if the D.R. has a larger dial opening and less visible case showing topsides at the bezel? I went round & round with myself on the last Gecko release. I can't find any info. I had a Doxa 1200T & the small dial opening was eventually off putting. Perhaps I shoulda tried a 1500, but seemed too clonky.

DocVail sent me some nice photos last time around as I researched that release, but still couldn't determine. Looks to be the same form factor.

Thanks if you can add anything helpful....

RD


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## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Here's a few more shots of the silver WatchGecko DevilRay. Just like the white model on our first collab, we've gone with a polished black finish on the hands and markers to ensure maximum legibility.
> 
> You can sign up to be notified when it comes into stock here: NTH DevilRay Dive Watch - Vintage Silver - WatchGecko Exclusive
> 
> ...


That is definitely a looker for sure!!


Sent from a van down by the river…


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

3WR said:


> Whoa. The new GeckoRays are cool.  I haven't been paying attention to the previous models. Can someone spare me the hassle and heartache and go ahead and tell me now that 6.75" wrists need not apply?


Boney 6.75" wrister here and DR owner, no problems wearing mine, it's my new weekend favourite watch. 
Worn mainly on a NATO or Nick Manley hook strap, I'm not really taken with the look of the bracelet and bought a shark-mesh bracelet from AliExpress that really looks the mutts in my eyes, I also bought the rubber strap from NTH but it's a **** to fit and gave up trying. I've put up a few pics on here if you take a look at my posts.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Riddim Driven said:


> Wow, those upcoming D.R. Gecko exclusives look even better this time around. Great photos too!
> 
> Has anyone compared with a Doxa 1200 Searambler / Doxa 300 in a side by side? One could even compare with those Doxa knock offs from Maranez or Seestern etc. Trying to determine if the D.R. has a larger dial opening and less visible case showing topsides at the bezel? I went round & round with myself on the last Gecko release. I can't find any info. I had a Doxa 1200T & the small dial opening was eventually off putting. Perhaps I shoulda tried a 1500, but seemed too clonky.
> 
> ...


Dial opening on the DevilRay is 29mm. I don't know what the dial opening is on any of the Doxas. Do they even make the 1200t any more?

Hard to guess the Doxa's dial size just by looking at the cases, but...the DR is 43mm x 46mm x 14.5mm (with a 40mm bezel diameter), which slots in between the 300t (42.5mm x 44.5mm x 14mm) and the 1500t (45mm x 47mm x 16mm).


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Here's a few more shots of the silver WatchGecko DevilRay. Just like the white model on our first collab, we've gone with a polished black finish on the hands and markers to ensure maximum legibility.
> 
> You can sign up to be notified when it comes into stock here: NTH DevilRay Dive Watch - Vintage Silver - WatchGecko Exclusive
> 
> ...


That vintage blue and vintage orange look absolutely drop dead gorgeous .
The new logo placement and devil ray printed dial are beautifully balanced (can't think where the idea came from???) and I don't think I miss the stepped minute markers which originally attracted me to the the DR in the first place.
Time to start putting a few penny's aside methinks.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Thank You. No they don’t make the 1200T anymore, but that was the one I had. I knew the 300T had similar specs. This latest DR does keep the dial wide open by design.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Riddim Driven said:


> Thank You. No they don’t make the 1200T anymore, but that was the one I had. I knew the 300T had similar specs. This latest DR does keep the dial wide open by design.


I'm no Doxa expert, but I think the 300t and 1200t are the same? The specs on the website say the 300t is good to 1200m. No idea why it's called the 300t, instead of the 1200t.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

docvail said:


> I'm no Doxa expert, but I think the 300t and 1200t are the same? The specs on the website say the 300t is good to 1200m. No idea why it's called the 300t, instead of the 1200t.



Thanks Doc - Yeh, very similar, & I'm no expert either, but an expert would be happy to tell us 

Further digging has the 300T with a 27.4mm dial opening, so there's my answer. I think the outer bezel diameter is roughly 36mm.

So by a whisker or two the D.R would have larger overall dimensions - how that translates noticeably, not a whole heck-of-a-lot.

Thanks again
RD


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Here's a few more shots of the silver WatchGecko DevilRay. Just like the white model on our first collab, we've gone with a polished black finish on the hands and markers to ensure maximum legibility.
> 
> You can sign up to be notified when it comes into stock here: NTH DevilRay Dive Watch - Vintage Silver - WatchGecko Exclusive
> 
> ...


Seems like Vail's finest work may have some competition. And your photography is God like. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

It's here! Great job on another winner Doc and crew.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

CuriousBob said:


> It's here! Great job on another winner Doc and crew.
> View attachment 16424522
> 
> View attachment 16424525


Ah a Todaro-twin! How do you like it?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Ah a Todaro-twin! How do you like it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


It's awesome. I was a little hesitant about the yellow accents when we first saw the renderings a while back, but it is just the right amount of pop against all that black.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Seems like Vail's finest work may have some competition. And your photography is God like.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Thank you very much! We're very pleased with how these turned out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> It's awesome. I was a little hesitant about the yellow accents when we first saw the renderings a while back, but it is just the right amount of pop against all that black.


Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

I feel like such a slacker as I’ve been running ”through the rest” these last few days. This morning it’s the one watch I keep on a bracelet (just in case I need to go to a wedding, funeral, court appearance, etc., and I wear something besides a t-shirt, sweatshirt, etc.). I will share that all but 1 (of six) NTH keep just as good time, and that one is still well within specs!


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Family photo
Edit: Not sure why the strap on the brown Barracuda looks pink but whatever. You get the point.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

LADIEEEEEEEESSSSSSS and GENTLEMENNNNNNNNNN…

IT’S THRESHERRRRRRRRRRRR. THURSDAYYYYYYYYYY…

LET‘S GET READY TO RUMBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE…

…and can’t believe I still have ice in the yard when it’s been 60s last couple of days!


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

This is what I was wearing today during my "helideck circles"....








And this is what I will be wearing in 3 weeks, 1 day, 11 hours and 30 minutes when I eventually make it home from the boat. (not that I am counting or anything )


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> I feel like such a slacker as I’ve been running ”through the rest” these last few days. This morning it’s the one watch I keep on a bracelet (just in case I need to go to a wedding, funeral, court appearance, etc., and I wear something besides a t-shirt, sweatshirt, etc.). I will share that all but 1 (of six) NTH keep just as good time, and that one is still well within specs!
> View attachment 16425690
> 
> 
> View attachment 16425692


Formex makes really nice watches. I think the brand is under-rated.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> Family photo
> Edit: Not sure why the strap on the brown Barracuda looks pink but whatever. You get the point.
> View attachment 16426969


Everyone point and laugh at the guy with the pink watch strap...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> This is what I was wearing today during my "helideck circles"....
> View attachment 16428446
> 
> And this is what I will be wearing in 3 weeks, 1 day, 11 hours and 30 minutes when I eventually make it home from the boat. (not that I am counting or anything )
> ...


That handset alignment though!

Also - I think "Helideck" might be a good name for an aviator watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bezel insert for Barracuda Polar White for sale - NTH Bezel insert ( new).


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Everyone point and laugh at the guy with the pink watch strap...


 I'd rock a pink strap if it worked with the rest of the watch but that's kind of a tough combo there.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> I'd rock a pink strap if it worked with the rest of the watch but that's kind of a tough combo there.


Oh, I don't know. I have a pink-and-gray plaid shirt, that always gets paired with my Barracuda Brown. I think they pair very well.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is your semi-monthly (is that twice a month or every-other month?) reminder to make sure to check your bracelet screws every so often, and use thread locker (I like clear nail polish) on any screws you remove while sizing the bracelet.

I just had a screw fall completely out of one of my bracelets.

Yes, me, the owner of the company.

It can happen to anyone, at any time, like suddenly having to get up and pee during the best part of a movie...never convenient.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Very true. I completely disassembled the bracelets on my Santa Fe and Thresher. I cleaned each link and screw and applied Loctite 222 to each screw prior to reassembly. Did the same to my other watches with screw bracelets. Excessive, perhaps, but I like messing with stuff. So far, so good.

Got a turquoise Devil Ray w/date on the way from WatchGauge.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Oh, you mean bi-monthly. 

(I'll show myself out, thank you)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This one today.










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Wearing this today (yesterday, I guess) and got me thinking about the other Chris. Anybody know how he's doing these days?


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Another of the herd getting a little wrist time today. A favorite date watch since date so easy to read without magnification…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Wearing this today (yesterday, I guess) and got me thinking about the other Chris. Anybody know how he's doing these days?
> 
> View attachment 16431816


Do you mean after his broken arms? Last I heard, he was recovering well.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Do you mean after his broken arms? Last I heard, he was recovering well.


Yes. That's good to hear.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

Here's some shots of the blue dial WatchGecko DevilRay as we countdown to the launch on Wednesday. 😁

Link to sign up to get notified when they go live is here: NTH DevilRay Dive Watch - Vintage Blue - WatchGecko Exclusive


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Good day here


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Watch That Sweep said:


> Here's some shots of the blue dial WatchGecko DevilRay as we countdown to the launch on Wednesday. 😁
> 
> Link to sign up to get notified when they go live is here: NTH DevilRay Dive Watch - Vintage Blue - WatchGecko Exclusive
> 
> ...


What are those wooden NTH doodads? Are they replacements for the black pleather watch boxes?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Slant said:


> What are those wooden NTH doodads? Are they replacements for the black pleather watch boxes?


Good eye! Now I am curious as well!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Retail display stands.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The Watch Gecko Devil Rays look very good but I'm happy to have a config 1 version 2 on the way.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

In honor of WatchGecko’s upcoming Devil Ray release, a WatchGecko limited edition…


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Lab4Us said:


> In honor of WatchGecko’s upcoming Devil Ray release, a WatchGecko limited edition…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you tell me... You sport your D.R. regularly round here. Does the watch wear more case than dial? ie is the dial small-ish in the case compared to 40mm NTH subs (as an example)? I like they've ditched the clutter and constricting minute tracks & associated googahs - You get the most you can get out of the dial now.  

Thanks LABS

RD


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Riddim Driven said:


> So you tell me... You sport your D.R. regularly round here. Does the watch wear more case than dial? ie is the dial small-ish in the case compared to 40mm NTH subs (as an example)? I like they've ditched the clutter and constricting minute tracks & associated googahs - You get the most you can get out of the dial now.
> 
> Thanks LABS
> 
> RD


So, I have 2 tropics @ 40mm, 2 Devil Rays @ 43mm, and 2 2K1’s @ 43.75mm. Of the six, the Devil Rays DIAL “seems” the smallest, though I’ve not measured any of the dials nor compared their widths if available anywhere. Plus the Devil Ray case, at least mine, flare out toward the bottom so could be an optical illusion. Even with the tropics being 40mm, their dials do “seem“ bigger to me, so I guess the Devil Ray dials do wear small in their flared cases. However the Tropics bezel is under the glass so it makes their dial seem bigger.

In the end, ALL wear comfortably on my 7” wrist with the elastic bands (Watch Steward Original) I wear on them. I’m not a bracelet guy, though I did try my Tropics on a bracelet for a while.

The reason I wear my Devil Rays and Thresher more than the others (it seems) is they are no date. I’ve learned that dates (without magnification or contrasting colors) are increasingly hard on my old eyes.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

^^ Thanks very much indeed. I appreciate it. I realize the dial / case is by design for what it represents.
Thank you 🙏👍
RD

PS: Always enjoy your collection....


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## Rito_GNUEL (May 31, 2021)

attracted by the ig posts of the soon to be released Devil Ray 
but really worried if it will look like a dish on my 6'25 wrist
Can any owner with small wrist can provide some wrist shot of this beauty?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

6.25 inch wrists here. I have 2 DR's. A gen 2 and this one. I lug to lug is short so that is what counts here. 


__
http://instagr.am/p/CXBmYNqL3OY/

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

And now, for an easy reading old man’s dial…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - how the DevilRay wears...

The bezel and dial size are actually the same size as the NTH Subs - 40mm and 29mm.

I think the DR wears larger than the Subs because its case is wider, and thicker, and it's heavier. The turtle case shape makes for more visible case, as opposed to more traditional case designs, like the Subs or Tropics.

I don't think it wears like a much bigger watch, though, because the lug-to-lug is only 46mm, compared to the Subs' / Tropics' 48mm, and because the dial is still only 29mm. 

I think it wears more like the 42mm Orthos, which was not quite as thick, but about the same weight. Personally, I think the Orthos actually felt thicker. The DR benefits from the contoured under-side, and the recessed bezel, which make it feel thinner than it is.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> What are those wooden NTH doodads? Are they replacements for the black pleather watch boxes?





Mediocre said:


> Good eye! Now I am curious as well!


When I decided to develop a network of retailers back in 2018, I figured some would have physical store-fronts, and would need retail displays for NTH. I also figured we should have one for shows and such.

I actually designed the displays myself, to be foldable, like a laptop, for easier shipping and transportation, and expandable, with two "wings" that slide out from underneath the main unit. Most retail displays I've seen are bulky, multi-piece affairs that don't travel well.

I also wanted to make the back-piece transparent, so that retailers could mount a small tablet with scrolling images, or just print out an image of a current release.




















(The NTH logos in these images of prototypes are bare wood. They're blacked-out on the final production units.)


















Depending on how tight the spacing is, the displays should accommodate up to 30 watches at a time.

In addition to the main displays, we ordered a bunch of individual units:










I think the whole project turned out pretty well.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> When I decided to develop a network of retailers back in 2018, I figured some would have physical store-fronts, and would need retail displays for NTH. I also figured we should have one for shows and such.
> 
> I actually designed the displays myself, to be foldable, like a laptop, for easier shipping and transportation, and expandable, with two "wings" that slide out from underneath the main unit. Most retail displays I've seen are bulky, multi-piece affairs that don't travel well.
> 
> ...


Impressive! And I thought you only knew watches and water heaters!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We should have some sort of objective, standard metric for how watches wear.

Like, a 40mm watch that wears like a 40mm is 1 (as in 100%), whereas one that wears larger is >1, like 1.2 (as in, 120%), and one that wears smaller than its dimensions would suggest is <1, like .95 (95%), etc.

Personally, I feel like:

Subs - wear slightly smaller than 40mm, like .975 (more like 39mm), but might just be 1 (exactly like 40mm).

Tropics - wear larger than 40mm, like 1.05-1.1 (more like 41mm, or even 42mm).

DevilRay - wears slightly smaller than 43mm, like .98 (more like 42mm).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Impressive! And I thought you only knew watches and water heaters!!


Meh. I was pretty proud of the results, considering I'd never tried to design anything like that before.

I'm not entirely thrilled with the "wings" that fold out from the back-piece. They were necessary to stabilize the back when it gets folded down onto the bottom piece, but look like a "popped collar" when they're opened.

Not quite as dramatic as this, but you get the idea...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Meh. I was pretty proud of the results, considering I'd never tried to design anything like that before.
> 
> I'm not entirely thrilled with the "wings" that fold out from the back-piece. They were necessary to stabilize the back when it gets folded down onto the bottom piece, but look like a "popped collar" when they're opened.
> 
> ...


I was serious, it's impressive 

As is that collar


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> We should have some sort of objective, standard metric for how watches wear.
> 
> Like, a 40mm watch that wears like a 40mm is 1 (as in 100%), whereas one that wears larger is >1, like 1.2 (as in, 120%), and one that wears smaller than its dimensions would suggest is <1, like .95 (95%), etc.
> 
> ...


You forgot 2K1s > all! …and wear perfectly! 
em/ patiently awaits new 2K1 design…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> You forgot 2K1s > all! …and wear perfectly!
> em/ patiently awaits new 2K1 design…


I feel like they wear .97 (more like a 42.5 than their 43.75).

I don't know if everyone else is like me, but I like bigger watches to wear smaller, and smaller watches to wear bigger.

Maybe it's because my wrist is precisely average, at 7 inches (17.78cm for you folks in countries that haven't put a man on the moon).


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Todaro Tuesday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Todaro Tuesday
> View attachment 16439104
> View attachment 16439105
> 
> ...


These actually look better than I thought they would. It's a bold dial it came out better irl than mock ups. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> These actually look better than I thought they would. It's a bold dial it came out better irl than mock ups.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


They always do. I do my best with the renders but there’s no substitute for the real deal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> They always do. I do my best with the renders but there’s no substitute for the real deal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ohh I don't mean the render was garbage, I just mean that real world photos sometimes do a lot to change perception. That's it. The renders are great for what they are. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah, the renders do a great job hooking you and getting your attention but the real thing sells them. It's why I'm buying that Télios with date.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

The new WatchGecko DevilRays are now live!

You can read all about what's different with them here:

Introducing The Second WatchGecko DevilRay Collaboration With NTH Watches | WatchGecko


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Watch That Sweep said:


> The new WatchGecko DevilRays are now live!
> 
> You can read all about what's different with them here:
> 
> Introducing The Second WatchGecko DevilRay Collaboration With NTH Watches | WatchGecko



Giddy up 👍


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Ohh I don't mean the render was garbage, I just mean that real world photos sometimes do a lot to change perception. That's it. The renders are great for what they are.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


I didn’t take offense. My comment was more of a “as good as the renders look, the real thing will be even better!” 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Watch That Sweep said:


> The new WatchGecko DevilRays are now live!
> 
> You can read all about what's different with them here:
> 
> Introducing The Second WatchGecko DevilRay Collaboration With NTH Watches | WatchGecko


I love the grey one especially.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seriously, Alibaba is just the goddam bastard child of some wild west / Marrakesh bazaar of ecommerce sites.

I mean, look at this ad that popped up as I was just trying to get the news...










"Come on down to Ali Baba's, for all your back-hoe, watch strap, yoga pants, and steel codpiece needs!"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I love the grey one especially.


Been a hot minute since you showed your face in these parts.

Hope you've been keeping well, mate.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Watch That Sweep said:


> The new WatchGecko DevilRays are now live!
> 
> You can read all about what's different with them here:
> 
> Introducing The Second WatchGecko DevilRay Collaboration With NTH Watches | WatchGecko


I was thinking as good as the new DevilRay's look I reckon I prefer the original, but seeing that vintage grey in greater detail I'm now thinking I'll flip my v1 DR and buy the grey... Or blue...


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## Glencoe (Jan 8, 2018)

Very tempted by those new devilrays, look cool. My finger has been hovering over the buy button, going back and forth over which colour.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Seriously, Alibaba is just the goddam bastard child of some wild west / Marrakesh bazaar of ecommerce sites.
> 
> I mean, look at this ad that popped up as I was just trying to get the news...
> 
> ...


My ads are full of watches. What have you been googling?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> My ads are full of watches. What have you been googling?


Back-hoes and yoga pants.

I have some vivid fantasies...


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## WatchGuyCanada (Aug 22, 2020)

Some vintage...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Seriously, Alibaba is just the goddam bastard child of some wild west / Marrakesh bazaar of ecommerce sites.
> 
> I mean, look at this ad that popped up as I was just trying to get the news...
> 
> ...


What the hell is going on in left middle? 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

docvail said:


> Seriously, Alibaba is just the goddam bastard child of some wild west / Marrakesh bazaar of ecommerce sites.
> 
> I mean, look at this ad that popped up as I was just trying to get the news...
> 
> ...


Wouldn't you know we're riding on the Marrakesh Express
Wouldn't you know we're riding on the Marrakesh Express
They're taking me to Marrakesh
All aboard the train, all aboard the train

Crosby, Stills, and Nash, 1969


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> What the hell is going on in left middle?
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Gimme $39 and I'll show you.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> What the hell is going on in left middle?
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk





docvail said:


> Gimme $39 and I'll show you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I get a PM from one of the mods in 3...2...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JUST FOR THE RECORD...

For $39, I wait until your're sloppy drunk, then I gut-punch you, and hold your hair back while you puke.

I call it "the angry bestie"...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> JUST FOR THE RECORD...
> 
> For $39, I wait until your're sloppy drunk, then I gut-punch you, and hold your hair back while you puke.
> 
> I call it "the angry bestie"...


Not that there is anything wrong with that.








Wish I still had hair.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

“& you wanna be my latex salesman.”


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

You read this thread, you learn stuff.

Not necessarily useful, or about watches. But stuff.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I too wish I still had hair.....


here's a watch though


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I now have my flight details for my trip home, that means I know my Upholder is 355 hours and 3844 nautical miles away, just enough time to get a nice new strap that will show it off nicely if I need a change from the bracelet.
BUT I'm really struggling to find something that "hits the spot", yes there is a rather nice black and yellow Nato, also a leather strap with yellow stitching down the side but I'm just not sure of either.....

Has anyone got any suggestions?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

gavindavie said:


> I now have my flight details for my trip home, that means I know my Upholder is 355 hours and 3844 nautical miles away, just enough time to get a nice new strap that will show it off nicely if I need a change from the bracelet.
> BUT I'm really struggling to find something that "hits the spot", yes there is a rather nice black and yellow Nato, also a leather strap with yellow stitching down the side but I'm just not sure of either.....
> 
> Has anyone got any suggestions?


For my future-purchased Upholder, I'm going to try an Erika's Black Ops MN Strap - black with a yellow stripe - and see if they're worth what they're asking. I'm totally done with Natos and Zulus, personally. Too stiff, too short, too much stress placed on the spring bars.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Too stiff, too short, too much stress...


THAT'S going to be the title of the autobiography!!!


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Got my Devil Ray today after an interminable wait that was in actuality less than a week. Got some WatchGauge swag and the vaunted NTH UV light thrown in the box, too.









Took the micro-adjust in a bit and took out a half-link on the 6 o'clock to size. Thank you NTH for the generous bracelet sizing, micro-adjust clasp, and even including a bracelet from the factory at this price.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Got my Devil Ray today after an interminable wait that was in actuality less than a week. Got some WatchGuage swag and the vaunted NTH UV light thrown in the box, too.
> View attachment 16445053
> 
> 
> Took the micro-adjust in a bit and took out a half-link on the 6 o'clock to size. Thank you NTH for the generous bracelet sizing, micro-adjust clasp, and even including a bracelet from the factory at this price.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

gavindavie said:


> I now have my flight details for my trip home, that means I know my Upholder is 355 hours and 3844 nautical miles away, just enough time to get a nice new strap that will show it off nicely if I need a change from the bracelet.
> BUT I'm really struggling to find something that "hits the spot", yes there is a rather nice black and yellow Nato, also a leather strap with yellow stitching down the side but I'm just not sure of either.....
> 
> Has anyone got any suggestions?


Watch Steward Original in “Smoke”…


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

I've posted my main watch box in a couple of threads today. I figured I'd post it here as well because it includes 5 great NTH watches in the second drawer.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> I've posted my main watch box in a couple of threads today. I figured I'd post it here as well because it includes 5 great NTH watches in the second drawer.
> View attachment 16446957


Your wife probably thinks they all look the same, am I right?

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Holy hell, man!


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Tanker G1 said:


> I've posted my main watch box in a couple of threads today. I figured I'd post it here as well because it includes 5 great NTH watches in the second drawer.
> View attachment 16446957


Your case makes me feel like a bad watch owner. That's a fantastic watchbox and collection. Thanks for sharing it.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

CuriousBob said:


> Your case makes me feel like a bad watch owner. That's a fantastic watchbox and collection. Thanks for sharing it.


Yeah, I have most of mine in a few Pelican 1450 briefcases with custom inserts but nothing like that. Nothing display worthy.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I just pulled up alibaba to see what came up...


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

josiahg52 said:


> For my future-purchased Upholder, I'm going to try an Erika's Black Ops MN Strap - black with a yellow stripe - and see if they're worth what they're asking. I'm totally done with Natos and Zulus, personally. Too stiff, too short, too much stress placed on the spring bars.


thanks for the tip, I have to admit that I have automatically dismissed these straps the last time someone mentioned them as they are elastic, but actually looking at them on the website and reading up on them I think they might be a good idea. Now I have to decide which colour strap to have the yellow stripe on.... and that luminous centreline one sounds good too .


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

josiahg52 said:


> For my future-purchased Upholder, I'm going to try an Erika's Black Ops MN Strap - black with a yellow stripe - and see if they're worth what they're asking. I'm totally done with Natos and Zulus, personally. Too stiff, too short, too much stress placed on the spring bars.


Erika's are really the best. However... At $85 they are quite pricey. I've got more than a few I bought a few years ago. I've recently been buying from the watch steward at 30% of the cost. They are comparable but not quite on par but you can get 3 of them. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

gavindavie said:


> thanks for the tip, I have to admit that I have automatically dismissed these straps the last time someone mentioned them as they are elastic, but actually looking at them on the website and reading up on them I think they might be a good idea. Now I have to decide which colour strap to have the yellow stripe on.... and that luminous centreline one sounds good too .


I tried super cheap ones first to see if I could live with them. I bought a number of them from Cheapest NATO Straps. Really cheap and there's a break at five. They're actually not "cheap" at all and I'm very happy with them. Now I have a few other brands on the way to see what works best for me. I would have no problem ordering from CNS again but they need more colors to choose from.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

josiahg52 said:


> I tried super cheap ones first to see if I could live with them. I bought a number of them from Cheapest NATO Straps. Really cheap and there's a break at five. They're actually not "cheap" at all and I'm very happy with them. Now I have a few other brands on the way to see what works best for me. I would have no problem ordering from CNS again but they need more colors to choose from.


Do not buy the CNS MN strap. Too much materials making it a thick strap to wear. Especially if you have a smaller wrist size. I bought one to try and it's horrible. 

Don't get me wrong. I shop from CNS. I actually have an order on the way. 

I continue to also buy the pricy EO straps because they work. And customized to my wrist. 

Here's the black ops









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

My only gripe with the CNS one is that the hardware isn’t correctly installed. I bought a few recently and was disappointed with the way they fit the watch. They’re not as secure as others because of the way they’re assembled.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

That was not my experience with CNS straps.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)




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## Chris Hughes (Dec 5, 2010)

Tanker G1 said:


> View attachment 16449702


The Devil Ray is kind of a chameleon. The various color combos available make it look almost like a different watch. I really like the combo you’ve got there. This is one that’s high on my “considering it” list.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Surely it must be #SwiftsureSunday? …and I’m sure there’s a Shirley out there somewhere…


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Travel watch of choice.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Todaro 2-22-22 s day









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)




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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

My boss gave me a new strap the other day. I've been struggling to figure out what I liked it on but I think I've found a pairing that I really like. Even better being a gift from my only real life watch pal.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My sons didn't want me to atrend our local school board meeting tonight, for fear I'd be arrested. My younger son lives in mortal fear I'll embarrass him by losing my $hlt and ending up on the news.

Now my wife and I are screwing with them by text...

When i asked the cop if we could take a selfie together, he told me we had to step out into the hallway, and "we'll call this 'community policing'."
















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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

As I take this picture today, 23 Feb 22, the windchill is 3 (three) degrees. Less than 48 hours ago it was 79 (seventy nine)! Deep in the heart of Texas…p.s. Dogs only out 5 minutes to run off some energy!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Similar but backwards? -5C about all week and it's 18C today. Beautiful out. Supposed to get a foot or so of snow before the weekend. Going to get cold again, too.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Heading back to expected 6-12" snow, tomorrow night into Fri, from 80F in FL, swimming in a pool, strolling by the ocean in shorts...


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> Heading back to expected 6-12" snow, tomorrow night into Fri, from 80F in FL, swimming in a pool, strolling by the ocean in shorts...
> 
> View attachment 16458687
> 
> ...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

juskiewrx said:


> It's a balmy 64 in Gorham today...


Yeah... I'm told we missed some great weather up Maine. Figures... still, not hatin' on an excuse to escape South for a week...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bruh. 70 in Philly today.










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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

25 with sleet/freezing rain starting back up in a couple hours here in Dallas. Truck was a sheet of ice this morning.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

64 in Bath as well 😉


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.
















Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah, Maine has been kind of confused the last couple of weeks. I'll take the odd 60F day here and there.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

josiahg52 said:


> Yeah, Maine has been kind of confused the last couple of weeks. I'll take the odd 60F day here and there.


Are you here too? Holy mackerel. I see a WIS GTG in the future....


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I know a couple other guys local-ish to ME... I'm in S Berwick, aka Northern Massachusetts.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

It better be sunny and warm in Miami! We’re heading over from the stormy Sussex coast of SE England this Friday, negative Covid test permitting…
This is our 2nd attempt to travel over, last Nov we had to cancel 24hrs before our flight when our dog swallowed a large pebble during a walk along the beach and need an emergency operation!



He made a full recovery but we’ve not taken him down to the beach in the last 6 weeks just in case.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

^^^ Have a marvelous Holiday!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Haven't done this in a while...

The DLC Thresher just sold out. Ditto for the Barracuda Brown. Also ditto the white Watch Gecko DevilRay.

Last pieces (as in, the last one, anywhere):

DevilRay - Black (with date) - 인투와치 (email [email protected] before purchasing, to request removal of the Korean sales tax.) No date sold out.

Swiftsure - Black / DLC (no date) - 2K1 Subs - Swiftsure - DLC | NTH Watches Hong Kong (with date now sold out).

Swifttsure - Black / Stainless (with date) - NTH Swiftsure Black Date

Thresher - Black / Stainless (no date) - 2K1 Subs - Thresher - Black | NTH Watches Hong Kong

Thresher - Black / Stainless (with date) - 인투와치

v.1 Näcken - Modern Black, Stainless (with date), on BOR - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=99&cate_no=60&display_group=1 (email [email protected] before purchasing, to request removal of the Korean sales tax.) No date sold out.

Nazario Vino Rosso - DLC - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nazario-vino-rosso-dlc-no-date

Nazario Vino Rosso - Stainless - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=206&cate_no=60&display_group=1 (email [email protected] before purchasing, to request removal of the Korean sales tax.)

Santa Cruz (with date) - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth/products/santa-cruz

v.2 Näcken - Modern Black (no date), on BOR (Serious will swap to oyster on request) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nacken-modern-black-no-date-bor-v2

These are all low-stock (low single digits, four or fewer), and only available from one site, listed below:

Scorpène Nomad (no date) - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=133&cate_no=60&display_group=1 (with date sold out)

Bahia (with date) - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=138&cate_no=60&display_group=1 (no date sold out)

DevilRay, White (no date) - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=159&cate_no=60&display_group=1 (with date sold out)

Thresher, Blue (with date) - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=209&cate_no=60&display_group=1 (no date sold out)

v.1 Näcken - Modern Blue (with date), on Oyster - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=170&cate_no=60&display_group=1 (no date sold out)

Näcken - Renegade (with date) on Oyster - https://nthwatches.com/collections/subs/products/nacken-renegade (no date sold out)

Scorpène - Blue, on Oyster - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=89&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Antilles - Dark Rum (with date) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-antilles-dark-rum-date

These are also low-stock (four or fewer), but available from more than one source, where they typically have 1 piece left:

Swiftsure - Black / Stainless (no-date) - available from Island Watch (US), IntoWatch (Kor) or the Watchdrobe (HK).

Swiftsure - Blue - available from IntoWatch (Kor) or Five:45 (NZ).

v.1 Näcken - Modern Black, Stainless, With Date, Oyster - available from IntoWatch (Kor) or the Watchdrobe (HK).

Antilles - Dark Rum, no-date - available from Serious (EU), Watch Gecko (UK) or IntoWatch (Kor)

v.2 Näcken - Modern Black, With Date - on BOR or Oyster at Serious (EU), on oyster at Watch Gecko (UK)

DevilRay - blue, with-date - available from Watch Gauge (US), Watch Gecko (UK), IntoWatch (KOR), or the Watchdrobe (HK)

Everything listed above will probably not be produced again, ever. Certainly not any time soon. If you've been on the fence about any of these, now is the time to get off it. Don't be the guy emailing me to ask when we'll make more the week after the last one sells.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"Well, there's your problem, right there..."



bigvic said:


>


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Riddim Driven said:


> Are you here too? Holy mackerel. I see a WIS GTG in the future....


We should do it!



mconlonx said:


> I know a couple other guys local-ish to ME... I'm in S Berwick, aka Northern Massachusetts.


I have a Navy buddy who lives in S. Berwick and I'm over there quite a bit. I live a little farther north.



docvail said:


> Haven't done this in a while...
> 
> . . . snip
> 
> Everything listed above will probably not be produced again, ever. Certainly not any time soon. If you've been on the fence about any of these, now is the time to get off it. Don't be the guy emailing me to ask when we'll make more the week after the last one sells.


I'm glad I didn't wait to get my turquoise Devil Ray.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

-19F this morning. Left my lights on last night, stupid truck……(owner)…. 

12F on the way home… 


30F high tomorrow… 


Sigh.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> Haven't done this in a while...


That's not good, I started to look up the Korean VAT...
(Ten percent, if you were wondering. Your homework: how many percent do you subtract from the price tag?)


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## ScouseWatch (Jan 4, 2022)

bigvic said:


> It better be sunny and warm in Miami! We’re heading over from the stormy Sussex coast of SE England this Friday, negative Covid test permitting…
> This is our 2nd attempt to travel over, last Nov we had to cancel 24hrs before our flight when our dog swallowed a large pebble during a walk along the beach and need an emergency operation!
> 
> 
> ...


Your dog has a great hairdo


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

ScouseWatch said:


> Your dog has a great hairdo


The word 'hairdo' always cracks me up because it reminds me of when my college roommate called my new haircut a hair-don't.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> That's not good, I started to look up the Korean VAT...
> (Ten percent, if you were wondering. Your homework: how many percent do you subtract from the price tag?)


No one said there'd be math...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone else ever get freaked out by how eerily smooth the hand-winding on the Seiko NH3x movements is?

Almost every watch I wear has a Miyota 9 in it. The hand-winding on those seems to offer a lot more tactile feel, which is just to say it offers more resistance. When I go to hand-wind the v.2 DevilRay, the lack of resistance is somewhat shocking, and makes me think the crown is broken for a moment.

I also noticed the Swiss STP in my v.1 DevilRay offers even more resistance, which is sort of weird, thinking about all the online comments I've read about how smooth the 2824-2 clones feel when hand-winding.


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

docvail said:


> Anyone else ever get freaked out by how eerily smooth the hand-winding on the Seiko NH3x movements is?


I've noticed this. My Thresher has a lot of tactile feedback when hand-winding. 

My Jellyfish (6R15) is very smooth as in my BaliHa'i GMT (2893-2). You do kind of wonder if you're actually accomplishing anything until the hands start moving.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Barracuda Brown today.










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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Time for thawing.








Look at the topping of the cat's fast food stand uhm, bird feeder, it's becoming ridiculous now.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Just checking in. Happy Saturday. Here's a watch:


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

VH944 said:


> Time for thawing.
> View attachment 16464093
> 
> Look at the topping of the cat's fast food stand uhm, bird feeder, it's becoming ridiculous now.


I am totally killing time on WUS before heading out to clear a foot of snow from the driveway...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

mconlonx said:


> I am totally killing time on WUS before heading out to clear a foot of snow from the driveway...


Me too! Less than a foot, though.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> I am totally killing time on WUS before heading out to clear a foot of snow from the driveway...


I overestimated - more like 6-8". A light brushing... still, busted out the Husqy snow thrower and made short work of it. Which reminds me... [off to order shear pins...]


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

"T" minus 8126 minutes and counting until I get to see the Upholder. 
It's the same number of miles away as last week as we have only really gone round in circles since then, but as that is essentially what we get paid for, going around in circles is actually a good thing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> "T" minus 8126 minutes and counting until I get to see the Upholder.
> It's the same number of miles away as last week as we have only really gone round in circles since then, but as that is essentially what we get paid for, going around in circles is actually a good thing.


Every time I think of Scotland, this is what I think of...


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## ScouseWatch (Jan 4, 2022)

docvail said:


> Every time I think of Scotland, this is what I think of...


You need to watch the full episodes of this program, not sure it'll translate across the pond however the humour. Its called Burnistoun


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Every time I think of Scotland, this is what I think of...


Freedom!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ScouseWatch said:


> You need to watch the full episodes of this program, not sure it'll translate across the pond however the humour. Its called Burnistoun


I just love the attempt at sounding American, and then the way the little bald guy throws his shoulder into it when he's trying to sound English.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

gavindavie said:


> "T" minus 8126 minutes and counting until I get to see the Upholder.
> It's the same number of miles away as last week as we have only really gone round in circles since then, but as that is essentially what we get paid for, going around in circles is actually a good thing.


You get paid to go around in circles, and I get paid to go back-and-forth. It is indeed a curious world


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Freedom!


Here's one for you, Dave.


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## ScouseWatch (Jan 4, 2022)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone want a LNIB Upholder with date?

(Not my listing)









Brand new NTH upholder sized and put back in box! $600...


As title says BNIB $600 just not my cup of tea! comes with box and papers everything as new and receipt from Long Island watch




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

And of course, the classic SNL skit...two Canadians trying to sound Scottish...









Watch Saturday Night Live Highlight: Scottish Soccer Hooligans - NBC.com


Watch Saturday Night Live highlight 'Scottish Soccer Hooligans' on NBC.com




www.nbc.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ScouseWatch said:


>


What the hell did I just watch???

Seriously, I legit LOL'd at the little pink chair...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If any of my Scottish friends want to laugh at what people sound like where I'm from, check out the Comedy Central online series, "Delco Proper" ("Delco" being local slang for "Delaware County" - due West of Philadelphia).









Delco Proper | Comedy Central


John, Tommy and their ragtag crew of coworkers find themselves in the midst of chaos while working at a Delco lumberyard.




www.cc.com





I particularly recommend episodes 1 (the Funeral) and 4 (For the troops).

You can check out the same guys' other sketches on the YouTube channel "Bird Text" - https://www.youtube.com/user/birdtext.

I particularly recommend the "Real Househusbands of Philadelphia" (all of them) and "the Philadelphia Fan Testing Facility".


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Here's one for you, Dave.


One more, true to form:


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Regarding accents: Americans don't really speak "English", we speak American. On my crews, I usually have 10 flight attendants. At least three are known as "speakers", meaning they're fluent in the language of our destination. It's fascinating that most are natives of those countries, and learned English as children. They speak "English" with the distinct accent of their teacher, so they might have a Scottish, Australian, or New York accent. Frequently, one of the crew needs to be the "interior translator" as they speak with each other. No criticism, however, as they are frequently fluent in four of five languages.

I speak a little French, due to a childhood in Canada and classes in college. And it's pretty common to have pilots with a working knowledge of Spanish due to its usefulness in the US. So, last trip to Paris, about 8 of us went out to dinner together. The meal-time conversation was fascinating. There were at least five different languages in play simultaneously, with some of the participants using three languages interchangeably.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Regarding accents: Americans don't really speak "English", we speak American. On my crews, I usually have 10 flight attendants. At least three are known as "speakers", meaning they're fluent in the language of our destination. It's fascinating that most are natives of those countries, and learned English as children. They speak "English" with the distinct accent of their teacher, so they might have a Scottish, Australian, or New York accent. Frequently, one of the crew needs to be the "interior translator" as they speak with each other. No criticism, however, as they are frequently fluent in four of five languages.
> 
> I speak a little French, due to a childhood in Canada and classes in college. And it's pretty common to have pilots with a working knowledge of Spanish due to its usefulness in the US. So, last trip to Paris, about 8 of us went out to dinner together. The meal-time conversation was fascinating. There were at least five different languages in play simultaneously, with some of the participants using three languages interchangeably.
> 
> View attachment 16465267


I got semi-decent at Spanish between high school and college. I found that it would unintentionally work its way into my Mandarin when I was studying at DLI, which really confused my Chinese instructors. They'd heard "Chinglish" before, but never "Spandarin".

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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

What a difference 4500 miles makes, freezing in my parka on the blustery south coast of England one day and spreading on factor 30 in the Florida sunshine the next.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Soak up that sunshine “bigvic” 🌞


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Every time I think of Scotland, this is what I think of...


Our lovely IT people have blocked all the videos, now I don't know how to even start pretending to be offended


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Regarding accents: Americans don't really speak "English", we speak American. On my crews, I usually have 10 flight attendants. At least three are known as "speakers", meaning they're fluent in the language of our destination. It's fascinating that most are natives of those countries, and learned English as children. They speak "English" with the distinct accent of their teacher, so they might have a Scottish, Australian, or New York accent. Frequently, one of the crew needs to be the "interior translator" as they speak with each other. No criticism, however, as they are frequently fluent in four of five languages.
> 
> I speak a little French, due to a childhood in Canada and classes in college. And it's pretty common to have pilots with a working knowledge of Spanish due to its usefulness in the US. So, last trip to Paris, about 8 of us went out to dinner together. The meal-time conversation was fascinating. There were at least five different languages in play simultaneously, with some of the participants using three languages interchangeably.
> 
> View attachment 16465267


I was lounging in a sauna in Iceland at a hot spring, two other gents were there, conversing. In English. One from Norway, the other from Spain, as it turns out. I count myself lucky that English is becoming a common global language.

I love hearing someone super-fluent in English to the point where you can pick out accents. I remember hearing some guy on the news with just impeccable English, but second language to their native Chinese (Cantonese), and very obviously taught by a German speaking English English...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> I was lounging in a sauna in Iceland at a hot spring, two other gents were there, conversing. In English. One from Norway, the other from Spain, as it turns out. I count myself lucky that English is becoming a common global language.
> 
> I love hearing someone super-fluent in English to the point where you can pick out accents. I remember hearing some guy on the news with just impeccable English, but second language to their native Chinese (Cantonese), and very obviously taught by a German speaking English English...


Blue Lagoon? That place was awesome.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheBearded said:


> Blue Lagoon? That place was awesome.


No, someplace inland, off the smaller loop out of Rykjavik. Doesn't really matter - a hot spring is a hot spring...

Ah!









Iceland Spa, Geothermal Baths & Steam Saunas | Laugarvatn Fontana


Laugarvatn Fontana is a Spa & Wellness center built on natural hot springs. One of Iceland's best attractions! Enjoy steam baths, geothermal pools & more.




www.fontana.is


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Happy Sunday, folks. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This Santa Cruz is rapidly becoming my favourite NTH Sub, which is truly saying something when you consider how much I love my Amphion/barracuda hybrid!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wearing this one today. One of the original 8 prototypes from 2016. Still runs well and looks practically new.









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Under the heading of FYI / FWIW...not sure how (or if) I missed this, but @kpjimmy discovered the NTH BOR fits the Monta Atlas.

Looking at this image on a larger screen (specifically the lug and end-link at 12), it appears that the upper surface of the end-links sit a little proud of the Atlas's lugs. Not sure how noticeable / offensive it is IRL.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'll vouch for the seller. He's a good egg...









SOLD ** Near New** NTH Santa Cruz - With Date


SOLD a nearly new NTH Santa Cruz with date. Bracelet is still brand new & wrapped plastic. Was only worn several times on another bracelet. I can not find any significant marks on the case other then slight marks behind the lugs from strap changes. Please see pictures for full description...




www.watchuseek.com


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Under the heading of FYI / FWIW...not sure how (or if) I missed this, but @kpjimmy discovered the NTH BOR fits the Monta Atlas.
> 
> Looking at this image on a larger screen (specifically the lug and end-link at 12), it appears that the upper surface of the end-links sit a little proud of the Atlas's lugs. Not sure how noticeable / offensive it is IRL.
> 
> View attachment 16468668


It sits a touch proud. But because of the polished chamfered edges of the lugs it blends into the watch. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Atticus Tuesday









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This beauty today. The NTH Scorpène blue.










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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Hey yo! I'm in the newsletter!









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Hey yo! I'm in the newsletter!
> View attachment 16471254
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

You got a newsletter? Lucky!


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Still wearing the Santa Cruz, five days on the wrist now. When I am wearing it I don’t feel the need to change, usually I swap every three days. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## joeax61 (Jan 29, 2019)

Hi gang, anybody seen the new NTH Devil Ray Dive Watches, only sold in Europe from Watch Gecko? 6 new colors, 2 already sold out! Wondering when they will be available to order in the USA...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

joeax61 said:


> Hi gang, anybody seen the new NTH Devil Ray Dive Watches, only sold in Europe from Watch Gecko? 6 new colors, 2 already sold out! Wondering when they will be available to order in the USA...


They were a Watch Gecko LE, their second.
If they're sold out, I'd keep an eye out on the used market. Try setting up an alert on Watch Recon.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

joeax61 said:


> Hi gang, anybody seen the new NTH Devil Ray Dive Watches, only sold in Europe from Watch Gecko? 6 new colors, 2 already sold out! Wondering when they will be available to order in the USA...


They've been out for a couple weeks. It was a special version commissioned by Watch Gecko to be sold EXCLUSIVELY through Watch Gecko. 25 of each version, IIRC. Unless Watch Gecko commissions more, don't expect it.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

joeax61 said:


> Hi gang, anybody seen the new NTH Devil Ray Dive Watches, only sold in Europe from Watch Gecko? 6 new colors, 2 already sold out! Wondering when they will be available to order in the USA...


The two you may be referring to is the first collab, white dial and a blue, that are now sold out. The second edition is a bit more different. The second collab edition comes in 4 colors. They are still in stock as of 3/2/2022.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

joeax61 said:


> Hi gang, anybody seen the new NTH Devil Ray Dive Watches, only sold in Europe from Watch Gecko? 6 new colors, 2 already sold out! Wondering when they will be available to order in the USA...


You can only order them directly from WatchGecko. They'll not be offered through other retailers.

You'll get free shipping to the US if you order one.

Also, there's only the white first edition that's sold out. All the others are still available.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Can there actually be a market for this? …at $4k???









MRGB5000B-1 | G-SHOCK MR-G Black | CASIO


From the MR-G series, the pinnacle of the G-SHOCK lineup, comes a new design based on the original DW5000C. The trademark square shape is elevated by utilizing special, premium metal materials and artisan craftsmanship that the MR-G series represents. The new MRGB5000 model features an...




www.gshock.com


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

/em spinning cartoon head
In the words of the infamous Max Max Max H H H H Headroom…

It must be #NTH #NTH #NTH #THRESH #THRESH #THRESH er,er,er, #THURS #THURS #THURS day,day,day


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## joeax61 (Jan 29, 2019)

Lab4Us said:


> Can there actually be a market for this? …at $4k???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Limit 1 per household!


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Watch That Sweep said:


> You can only order them directly from WatchGecko. They'll not be offered through other retailers.
> 
> You'll get free shipping to the US if you order one.
> 
> Also, there's only the white first edition that's sold out. All the others are still available.


I have a white first edition that I'm considering selling if anyone missed the boat


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Lab4Us said:


> Can there actually be a market for this? …at $4k???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The $1,650 GMWB5000TVA1 sold out as did two similarly priced titanium models so I'd image there's a market. IDK how many will pay full retail. I picked up TCM and TB-1 brand new around $1,200 each. Apply that 25% off msrp to these new models with multi-piece ceramic banana bezels and there appears to be many who'd pull the trigger based on the convo in the Casio theatre. Could be Casio monkeys throwing poop but seeing some of the collections shared there IDK. I might consider it under $2,500 but my pickled brain can't connect 'digital watch' and $4,000.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some days I really just want to chuck my laptop across my office.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I sometimes feel like this:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I sometimes feel like this:


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Tanker G1 said:


> The $1,650 GMWB5000TVA1 sold out as did two similarly priced titanium models so I'd image there's a market. IDK how many will pay full retail. I picked up TCM and TB-1 brand new around $1,200 each. Apply that 25% off msrp to these new models with multi-piece ceramic banana bezels and there appears to be many who'd pull the trigger based on the convo in the Casio theatre. Could be Casio monkeys throwing poop but seeing some of the collections shared there IDK. I might consider it under $2,500 but my pickled brain can't connect 'digital watch' and $4,000.


I think you meant to post this in the MRG-B5000 thread over in the Gshock forum  

Unless your responding to one of the members I have on my ignore list  in which case... How did the convo transition from the Watch Gecko DRs into the new MRG Square?


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I think you meant to post this in the MRG-B5000 thread over in the Gshock forum
> 
> Unless your responding to one of the members I have on my ignore list  in which case... How did the convo transition from the Watch Gecko DRs into the new MRG Square?


Looks like a member of your ignore group posted here in the NTH thread questioning if there was a market for a $4,000 G-Shock. The fact that you can see my response means I haven't reached ignore status yet. I'll work on it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This thread never needed segue ways before. Don't think we ever will.

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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

Tanker G1 said:


> Looks like a member of your ignore group posted here in the NTH thread questioning if there was a market for a $4,000 G-Shock. The fact that you can see my response means I haven't reached ignore status yet. I'll work on it.


Hmmm, not even sure how I earned ignore!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lab4Us said:


> Can there actually be a market for this? …at $4k???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably, people spend money on dumber ****




docvail said:


> Some days I really just want to chuck my laptop across my office.


I feel this in my soul




josiahg52 said:


> I sometimes feel like this:


This is hilarious 🤣 


I worked next to a 6× year old gent for 3 years. Occasionally he would get mad at his computer and baseball throw his mouse. Shattered 2 or 3 over the years


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Mediocre said:


> I worked next to a 6× year old gent for 3 years. Occasionally he would get mad at his computer and baseball throw his mouse. Shattered 2 or 3 over the years


I chuckle a bit every time I watch that video.

I worked next to a 6x and later 72 year old before he retired that was a destroyer of keyboards. Keycaps would go flying about. You could find them everywhere.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

docvail said:


> segue ways


*segues

The 'way' is already in the segue. 

Sorry Doc if I've now accidentally boarded the Ignore Express.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

First math, now grammar?!?!?!?!

**** this thread


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Lab4Us said:


> Can there actually be a market for this? …at $4k???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I love the fact that there is a limit of one watch per customer...

But seriously, it looks just like another bog standard G- shock. With that sort of coin I'd go for one of the samurai series, at least they look stylish. 

Folks and their money...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I’ll see myself out.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> I’ll see myself out.


Took me a minute. I started looking at his watch.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Tanker G1 said:


> *segues
> 
> The 'way' is already in the segue.
> 
> Sorry Doc if I've now accidentally boarded the Ignore Express.


Not all heroes wear capes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lab4Us said:


> Hmmm, not even sure how I earned ignore!


You don't even have offensively hairy wrists.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I’ll see myself out.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16476679


He’s not wearing his helmet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> He’s not wearing his helmet!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


What are you, some sort of insurance claims adjuster?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> What are you, some sort of insurance claims adjuster?


No, I just play one on TV drama shows.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Sunday sunrise at the beach.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I'm home and caught up on sleep, more importantly opened up the Upholder and resized the bracelet. 
I think it's awesome 👌. Lots of details to keep me engrossed. Great work Doc.








Not the best light for photos. I'll try again when I fit my new strap from Erikas.

PS. I can see the videos now....ELEVEN, ELEVEN, FREEDOM!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> I'm home and caught up on sleep, more importantly opened up the Upholder and resized the bracelet.
> I think it's awesome 👌. Lots of details to keep me engrossed. Great work Doc.
> View attachment 16481080
> 
> ...


Cheers, mate. Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> Sunday sunrise at the beach.
> 
> View attachment 16480440


Nice shot. Assuming west coast beach?


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

ryan850 said:


> Nice shot. Assuming west coast beach?


No, East Coast. Florida.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone interested in a used Odin black no-date or Nacken Vintage Black? Same seller has one of each on the sales forum. I'll vouch for the seller. @CMFord is a friend, and was a long-time regular contributor here, though he hasn't been seen here much recently. 









FS: NTH Odin Black w/ Unworn, unsized Bracelet, all box...


Interested in selling my NTH Odin Black for $500. The watch is in perfect working order and excellent cosmetic condition. There are a few very minor marks on the case consistent with normal wear in an office environment and the bracelet is close to new with very few marks on it at all. The...




www.watchuseek.com













FS: NTH Nacken Vintage Black w/ articulated bracelet and...


Interested in selling my NTH Nacken Vintage Black for $300. NOTE: This watch was modded by a previous owner who added a double domed sapphire crystal w/ AR coating in place of the original crystal. The effect is really nice but, do to the modification, I cannot speak to its water resistance. The...




www.watchuseek.com





It appears both have the v.2.1 bracelet (new clasp and new link profile, for certain, but I don't think either has the new end-links).

I'm not sure what to make of this note on the Nacken: "NOTE: This watch was modded by a previous owner who added a double domed sapphire crystal w/ AR coating in place of the original crystal. The effect is really nice but, do to the modification, I cannot speak to its water resistance."

The original crystal was an AR-coated double-dome sapphire, and the crystal in the pics doesn't appear any different to me, unless I detect a bit more reflection, and maybe slightly more dome.

A basic pressure test is as close as your nearest independent watchmaker, FWIW.


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## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

I bought the Vintage Black a while ago because I felt like it was a good deal. The current crystal is more domed than the original one but the difference is so slight I can't understand why anyone would have messed with it. Just not wearing it or the Odin these days but, man, was it tough to list them. Still have and love my two Devil Rays, two remaining subs, the 2K1 and, of course, both my Riccardos, the blue and the black. 

Haven't been devoting as much time to the hobby these days but I always look forward to seeing what you're doing next. The latest DevilRays (has anyone called them the RetroRays yet? Surely someone has!) look incredible. Took some self-control not to pick one up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> I bought the Vintage Black a while ago because I felt like it was a good deal. The current crystal is more domed than the original one but the difference is so slight I can't understand why anyone would have messed with it. Just not wearing it or the Odin these days but, man, was it tough to list them. Still have and love my two Devil Rays, two remaining subs, the 2K1 and, of course, both my Riccardos, the blue and the black.
> 
> Haven't been devoting as much time to the hobby these days but I always look forward to seeing what you're doing next. The latest DevilRays (has anyone called them the RetroRays yet? Surely someone has!) look incredible. Took some self-control not to pick one up.


And here I thought you just didn't like me anymore...

On the real - I know at least one other dude replaced the crystal on his sub, with something that had a much more pronounced dome, maybe even acrylic, though I may be mis-remembering that bit. I think he also replaced the solid caseback with a transparent one.

So long as the sapphire that's fitted is the same diameter, and at least the same thickness (actual thickness of the crystal itself, not the thickness it adds to the case), the water resistance shouldn't be affected.


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## T-_-ler (10 mo ago)

can someone tell me how many of the thresher with date dlc were made?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

T-_-ler said:


> can someone tell me how many of the thresher with date dlc were made?


I guarantee @docvail _could_ tell you.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Little change









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

kpjimmy said:


> Little change
> View attachment 16484833
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


That is tight, with the Nomad bezel insert...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

T-_-ler said:


> can someone tell me how many of the thresher with date dlc were made?


Five.

They're all sold out. This is the last DLC Swiftsure (a no-date). 









2K1 Subs - Swiftsure - DLC | NTH Watches Hong Kong


The 2K1 Subs are our tribute to the world’s first diving watches fitted with helium escape valves, made for record-setting, deep-depth saturation diving in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s.




www.thewatchdrobe.com


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Five.
> 
> They're all sold out. This is the last DLC Swiftsure (a no-date).
> 
> ...


Didn't realize his few DLCs were made. I think the DLC Swiftsure is a very cool looking watch. For some reason, the 2K1 case works extremely well in black.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Didn't realize his few DLCs were made. I think the DLC Swiftsure is a very cool looking watch. For some reason, the 2K1 case works extremely well in black.


My observations with DLC is that people talk about it more than they buy it.

When we made the Lew & Huey Phantom, DLC sold well enough in pre-order (when prices were lower). Once we finished production (and raised prices to full retail), sales of the DLC versions slowed down a lot.

We made 5 pieces each of the date/no-date versions of the Swiftsure Black and Thresher Black, for a total of 20 pieces (5 each of those 4 versions).

18 months later, there's still one of the 20 left, so I feel like my projections and the production numbers resulting from them have been largely validated.

With all the DLC versions of the 40mm Subs, we also made 5 each, with the exception of the Barracuda Vintage Black. We made 10 each of those. They're all sold out now, but for the last Nazario Vino Rosso DLC - NTH Nazario Vino Rosso DLC No Date.

The mix of DLC was like the mix of BOR to oyster - if we assemble 25 of a SKU, total, we'll carve out 5 to make DLC or put on BOR. But the truth is that the demand for the BOR's has proven to be a lot higher than the demand for the DLC's, which is why we haven't made any of the v.2's in DLC. I just don't see the point in it.

I don't have all the numbers and timelines committed to memory, but I think the sales pace for the DLC versions generally validates the decisions I made regarding their production.


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## T-_-ler (10 mo ago)

Hi Docvail,

many thanks for your quick response! I'm a fan of DLC / PVD watches, my first automatich watch was the Obris Morgan Pradata PVD, and I still love it.
I'm wearing it right now.









The reason why I asked at all was that i bought exactly this watch last wednesday.
The watch is on its way to me and I'm praying that it will arrive safely.
As soon as i receive it, i will take a nice wrist shot and write a review in the german watch forum.

Keep your fingers crossed and stay safe & healthy


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

T-_-ler said:


> Hi Docvail,
> 
> many thanks for your quick response! I'm a fan of DLC / PVD watches, my first automatich watch was the Obris Morgan Pradata PVD, and I still love it.
> I'm wearing it right now.
> ...


Are you the guy who emailed us asking about it last week?

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## T-_-ler (10 mo ago)

Yap


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

It’s Tudor Homage Tuesday 










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I do want a black 2K1. Something about that big case just makes it work for me. I just wanted a blue watch the last time around. Whatever new 2K1 design comes about, I hope to get it in black BUT I understand the realities of production both regarding DLC and the 2K1 case in general so that may not be possible.


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## T-_-ler (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Are you the guy who emailed us asking about it last week?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...





T-_-ler said:


> Hi Docvail,
> 
> many thanks for your quick response! I'm a fan of DLC / PVD watches, my first automatich watch was the Obris Morgan Pradata PVD, and I still love it.
> I'm wearing it right now.
> ...


Her it is my new NTH Thresher DLC


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Coastal walk with the dogs
...and strangers wondering why I was taking a photo of my watch


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

T-_-ler said:


> Yap


I'm officially confused.

The guy I'm speaking of said he was in Perth, Australia. My retailer in Hong Kong told me that he (the guy in Perth) was buying the watch. And yet the flag on your profile is Germany's, I think. It's certainly not Australia's.

The guy with whom I traded emails asked the same questions you did - how many did we make, and why so few. So it seems odd that someone else would ask the same questions in this thread, about the same version of that watch.

EDIT - my bad. That guy was asking about the Thresher, DLC, no date, not the with-date. It appears we sold the last two DLC Threshers within a few days of each other.


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## T-_-ler (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> I'm officially confused.
> 
> The guy I'm speaking of said he was in Perth, Australia. My retailer in Hong Kong told me that he (the guy in Perth) was buying the watch. And yet the flag on your profile is Germany's, I think. It's certainly not Australia's.
> 
> The guy with whom I traded emails asked the same questions you did - how many did we make, and why so few. So it seems odd that someone else would ask the same questions in this thread, about the same version of that watch.





docvail said:


> I'm officially confused.
> 
> The guy I'm speaking of said he was in Perth, Australia. My retailer in Hong Kong told me that he (the guy in Perth) was buying the watch. And yet the flag on your profile is Germany's, I think. It's certainly not Australia's.
> 
> ...


 You must be confused  
I just sent an email and wanted to know how many threshers there are, nothing else. 
So I'm just guessing I'm not who you meant  Cause I'm from Germany 
But it doesn't matter now. I have my Thresher DLC.
Is / was the watch adjusted? Because mine has a lead time of 5 seconds in just 2 hours.
I'll wait for the next 3-4 days, maybe that'll regulate itself


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

T-_-ler said:


> You must be confused
> I just sent an email and wanted to know how many threshers there are, nothing else.
> So I'm just guessing I'm not who you meant  Cause I'm from Germany
> But it doesn't matter now. I have my Thresher DLC.
> ...


I'm afraid I don't recall your email about the with-date. It's possible I never saw it, and it was handled by my assistant.

The watches are adjusted. Are you measuring it at full power, in multiple positions, on a timegrapher, or just taking observations of timekeeping while you're wearing it?

Using a timegrapher, hand-wind the watch to full power (40 complete rotations of the crown), and measure it in dial up, 12 down, crown down, and crown up positions. Take the average of those four to get the average daily rate, and make sure the maximum difference between any of the four positions is no more than 40 seconds. It should average out to between -5 and +15 secs / day.

If you find that the on-wrist / off-wrist performance isn't very close to what you see on the timegrapher, you may not be moving around enough to keep the watch near the top of its power reserve. In that case, we'd recommend using hand-winding to supplement the auto-winding. It's generally good to hand-wind a watch some if it's been stopped, before putting it on and wearing it.

If the watch is being run on low power, that could affect the accuracy.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Desk diving with the Swiftsure, not doing much to test the 2000ft depth rating 😆


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Doc, how about a Swiftsure style dial in a 40mm sub?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16488783


If you ever feel like you got one too many Scorpene's I'll have cash waiting 😁


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Desk diving with the Swiftsure, not doing much to test the 2000ft depth rating 😆
> View attachment 16488749


*2001


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Doc, how about a Swiftsure style dial in a 40mm sub?


We'll see. Maybe.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> If you ever feel like you got one too many Scorpene's I'll have cash waiting 😁


There are new Scorpene Blues and Nomads at IntoWatch in Korea.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> *2001


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


>


I know, right?

Just saying, they're the 2K*1*'s, not merely the 2K's.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Mine could be a 0k1, it survived the bath tub anyways


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Johnboy0103 said:


> If you ever feel like you got one too many Scorpene's I'll have cash waiting 😁


Had one version for sale, recently. Now, no.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

The indices on this watch 🤩


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Quick break time candid


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> If you ever feel like you got one too many Scorpene's I'll have cash waiting 😁


Re - Scorpènes -

I was thinking we might make more of the original black-on-black version. I'm not sure when. Might be later this year, or maybe not until early next.

Meanwhile, if you want a Nomad (12 hour bezel), there are 2 or 3 pieces left, all no-date - 인투와치

I doubt we'll make more of that version, since we'd be making more of the original, and the Nomad would just seem redundant. We only made 50 of the Nomad - 25 with date, 25 no-date.

If you prefer the blue, there are also 2 or 3 of those left - 인투와치

We made 85 of those. I don't know when or even if we'll make more. I doubt it would be before next year.

If you want to pick either model up from IntoWatch, be sure to email them at [email protected] first, and ask that they remove the Korean sales tax from the sales price.

The owner, Jun, speaks fluent English, and is very responsive, bordering on "when does he sleep?".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16489474
> 
> Quick break time candid


When we made the v.2 Tropics, I would have bet all my money that the Blue Azores would sell out first. But it seems like the Green has been more popular. 

The Cointreau was literally an afterthought. I figured we needed another colorway to round out the collection. I just threw that one together, last-minute. It's been the best seller.

Some days I wonder if I even know what I'm doing.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> Re - Scorpènes -
> 
> The owner, Jun, speaks fluent English, and is very responsive, bordering on "when does he sleep?".



Cheers for the info, email seems like a good idea. Google translate had a meltdown attempting to translate the site to English


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> The Cointreau was literally an afterthought..... It's been the best seller.


You mean the Absinthe?

I liked the Cointreau. A lot actually.
But I argued with myself the way most WIS do when we're looking at another watch, in a dial color we already have multiples of. I eventually talked myself into going out on a limb and trying a green dial. I also asked a buddy of mine that I've known for a little over 20 years, who doesn't BS me, and he pushed me over the edge on the decision.

It wasn't a bad one. I love it. As far as "lookers" when it comes to the dial alone, the Azores can't be beat in my collection, which numbers something like 24.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You mean the Absinthe?
> 
> I liked the Cointreau. A lot actually.
> But I argued with myself the way most WIS do when we're looking at another watch, in a dial color we already have multiples of. I eventually talked myself into going out on a limb and trying a green dial. I also asked a buddy of mine that I've known for a little over 20 years, who doesn't BS me, and he pushed me over the edge on the decision.
> ...


No, I meant the Cointreau Antilles. It's been the best-seller out of all the v.2 Tropics styles.

I thought the blue Azores would be the best seller, but it's been out-sold by the green Azores.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> No, I meant the Cointreau Antilles. It's been the best-seller out of all the v.2 Tropics styles.
> 
> I thought the blue Azores would be the best seller, but it's been out-sold by the green Azores.


Ahhhh. I see said the blind man.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

New strap on, just got to figure out how to get the latch on without looking like I'm a contortionist.... I've probably got it upside down knowing me


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## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Accidentally took a decent photo. 

Where are the shots of the new DevilRays in the wild already? Was hoping I'd find some in here.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> No, I meant the Cointreau Antilles. It's been the best-seller out of all the v.2 Tropics styles.
> [...]


I was considering a Cointreau, but the colors in the photos varied too wildly, between a lighter sunburst (think: center of a Dark Rum - this is the color I would expect for the beverage), some pink grapefruit/gold (it is made of orange peels after all, isn't it?), and some photos (or renderings?) even had a shade of beige/green (bad oranges...) in it.
Here's the advantage of a shop, you can check it and compare directly. Since returning stuff is always a hassle with customs I took the safe bet with a Dark Rum, and I still like it, "popular" (a relative term for these batch sizes) or not.

Cointreau, Rum, Absinthe, Rosé - all nice beverages, but I had my first bad experience with this kind of stuff with Blue Curaçao. Even Absinthe, despite its reputation, is easier to enjoy... 
Let me know when there is a Negroni (Campari, vermouth and gin)!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> Accidentally took a decent photo.
> 
> Where are the shots of the new DevilRays in the wild already? Was hoping I'd find some in here.
> 
> View attachment 16491626


That is a great shot.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> I was considering a Cointreau, but the colors in the photos varied too wildly, between a lighter sunburst (think: center of a Dark Rum - this is the color I would expect for the beverage), some pink grapefruit/gold (it is made of orange peels after all, isn't it?), and some photos (or renderings?) even had a shade of beige/green (bad oranges...) in it.
> Here's the advantage of a shop, you can check it and compare directly. Since returning stuff is always a hassle with customs I took the safe bet with a Dark Rum, and I still like it, "popular" (a relative term for these batch sizes) or not.
> 
> Cointreau, Rum, Absinthe, Rosé - all nice beverages, but I had my first bad experience with this kind of stuff with Blue Curaçao. Even Absinthe, despite its reputation, is easier to enjoy...
> Let me know when there is a Negroni (Campari, vermouth and gin)!


You definitely don't want to go by the 3D's on that model. All due respect to Rusty. Those were very difficult to model correctly.

I think the variation you're seeing is the effect of how light hits the dial. The photos I see that often look right can often vary wildly. It's also true that when we do a color-fade, it's done by hand with an air-brush, so there is some variation from one piece to the next.

I'd call all of these "correct", but acknowledge that the appearance varies a lot. I think the first shot demonstrates how the amount of light on the dial really changes things. Look at the difference in the right half vs. the left.









































I think "Cointreau" is about right, as far as the colors go...










It's got more hints of orange, and is more "fruity", as opposed to Dark Rum, which I think of as more caramel-brown, more "earthy".


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Traveling with my daughter to Leeds for the day. Taking the train to make life easy. Enjoying my Odin on a rubber strap. 




















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

New NTH day. This one should look familiar. I was lucky enough to pick up this v1 Nacken Modern Blue lightly used. It's been on the top of my must have list forever, but each time I got a new NTH, I went with a different one. This one was the popular, safe option. Until, with the V2, it wasn't anymore. I know the changes are minimal, but to me this is the perfect dial colour. Beyond thrilled that it's finally part of the collection.


















Speaking of, the collection:









Edit: spelling. Half of that made no sense...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Speaking of, the collection:
> View attachment 16493404
> 
> 
> Edit: spelling. Half of that made no sense...


From left to right:

1 of 100
1 of 60
1 of 1 (although I think there's at least 1 guy - @RotorRonin - who has a similar v.2 mod - same bezel, same v.1 dial, except with a date, in a v.2 case.)
1 of 50 (no-date, 1 of 100 if you count both with-date and no-date.)
1 of 47.

RotorRonin's v.2 Mod:










As for the Näcken Modern Blue's dial color, it amazes me how some folks seem hyper-attuned to the difference with the new color, as no one seems to have noticed that we'd already changed the color once before.

These are the three dial colors, in sequence from earliest to latest, from left to right:










That's Pantone 7547 C (a very low-saturation, almost gray "blue"), Pantone 303 C (medium saturation, almost dark teal), and the current color, 2955 C (more saturated, and more neutrally "blue").

They're all "dark blue", just with varying levels of saturation, and varying mixes of green-violet.
























The original Näcken Modern Blue was produced in 2017, using 7547. The dial was so dark, and so low saturation that some folks couldn't even detect that it was really "blue".

We changed the color to 303 in mid-2018 - AND NO ONE NOTICED!!!!

By the end of 2018, we'd settled on 2955 as being the closest match to the blue bezel inserts, and used it on the Odin Blue. I think the match is as close to perfect as we've gotten, so we used it for the v.2 Näcken Modern Blue.

I wonder if the peeps who like the old color (either of them) better would have liked the new color more had they never seen the older colors.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Accidentally took a decent photo.
> 
> Where are the shots of the new DevilRays in the wild already? Was hoping I'd find some in here.
> 
> View attachment 16491626











New NTH / Geckota Vintage Series Devil Ray


Yours running a good bit better than mine.... its -13 secs a day so far Ouch, that's kind of disappointing.




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You mean the Absinthe?
> 
> I liked the Cointreau. A lot actually.
> But I argued with myself the way most WIS do when we're looking at another watch, in a dial color we already have multiples of. I eventually talked myself into going out on a limb and trying a green dial. I also asked a buddy of mine that I've known for a little over 20 years, who doesn't BS me, and he pushed me over the edge on the decision.
> ...





docvail said:


> No, I meant the Cointreau Antilles. It's been the best-seller out of all the v.2 Tropics styles.
> 
> I thought the blue Azores would be the best seller, but it's been out-sold by the green Azores.


Actually, here's a point of philosophical / business debate...

Suppose you run a business that sells multiple products, which you produce in varied numbers, and at varied intervals. 

Last year, you had a release of new products which included Product A - of which you made 25, at the same time you made 50 of Products B and C and D. Product A was the first to sell out, which is to be expected, maybe, if you only produced half as many. Yet it didn't just sell out first, it sold out QUICKLY. On that basis, you decide to make more for the next production.

The next time around, you make another 25 of Product A, as well as 50 more of Products B and C, which were also popular. Instead of making more of D, you opt to make 25 each of Products E and F. 

Three months later, these are your numbers:

Product A - 10 pieces, or 20% of the 50 you produced remain. You've sold 40.

Product B - 30 pieces, or 30% of the 100 you produced remain. You've sold 70.

Product E - 5 pieces, or 20% of the 25 you produced remain. You've sold 20.

We'll ignore C, D and F, as the three above all sold better than their peers from within their respective releases. Which would you say was the "best-seller" of those three? Which would you consider making again, if any of them?

While only 20% of A and E remain, and 30% of B, the production numbers were different. You actually sold more of B (70 pieces) than the other two combined (40 and 20, respectively). And yet, remaining inventory on B is twice the combined inventory of A and E. Would you make more of any of them, when the inventory eventually sells out?

I'm not certain there's a "correct" answer here. But the above scenario is a very realistic hypothetical version of what I look at whenever I look back at past productions, and try to figure out what did well, why, and what I should produce again. I look at the total number produced, and the number remaining, as well as the speed at which the inventory sells out.

This isn't all theoretical. I think about how customers experience and remember the above, compared to how my retailers experience and remember it, compared to how I see it in the aggregate. I've found that customers and my retailers occasionally assume a model sold better or worse than it actually did, based on how their individual experiences with it.

I suppose that may explain why there's a disconnect (and for me, a certain degree of frustration) between the customer who asks when we'll make more of Product C, because for him the product suddenly disappeared just as he wanted to buy one, and me, when I know that product was continuously available for a year before it sold out.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Nobody said there'd be math...


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Nobody said there'd be math...


Chris has a super power… he has eleven fingers.

Ric, innit.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Listening to some of our sales people I'd say you have "too much inventory" for all of them. On the positive side, you're overestimating consistently, so that's rather easy to correct for.

The interesting number is not percentage sold (this can be improved without making more money) but the gross product margin: how many cents per dollar are "yours" after paying the production costs. In other words, which is the product that would return most when increasing sales.
When the 70 sold are hardly covering their own production costs, that's bad. When each of the 70 makes you buy another wheelbarrow for the cash...

I am not a business person, just some guy on the internet, mind you.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> View attachment 16492297


Does the texture on this dial have a name? 
How is it produced?


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Does the texture on this dial have a name?
> How is it produced?


I've been calling it wood-grain. I believe it's stamped into the dial.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks. I like this texture a lot, it seems to be not used very often.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> From left to right:
> 
> 1 of 100
> 1 of 60
> ...


see this is the kind of stuff I hang out here for.. Where else would you get to nerd out with this type of detail from the brand owner 

to the point - to my untrained eye the change from the first colour to the 2nd seems smaller than from the second to the third, so maybe that's why it was less apparent. Plus over the past few years you probably increased your audience quite a bit, so more people had the chance to notice.

I might have picked this one up from RotorRonin. On a different place, by a different username, but I have the feeling they might be one and the same person.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Listening to some of our sales people I'd say you have "too much inventory" for all of them. On the positive side, you're overestimating consistently, so that's rather easy to correct for.
> 
> The interesting number is not percentage sold (this can be improved without making more money) but the gross product margin: how many cents per dollar are "yours" after paying the production costs. In other words, which is the product that would return most when increasing sales.
> When the 70 sold are hardly covering their own production costs, that's bad. When each of the 70 makes you buy another wheelbarrow for the cash...
> ...


Your sales people aren't "wrong", at least not when it comes to general principles for most inventory-based businesses.

We're challenged by the combined effect of our vendors' MOQ's (minimum order quantities) and production times, which I used to estimate at 3 months, then 4, then 5, sometimes 6, and now, with what's going on in China, I have no idea how to estimate.

Re - China - we'd already been dealing with the usual vagaries of Chinese production, before the last two years added quarantines, rolling blackouts, and now, this:









China shuts business center of Shenzhen to fight virus surge


China has responded to a spike in coronavirus infections by shutting down its southern business center of Shenzhen, a city of 17.5 million people




abcnews.go.com





I'd known Hong Kong was experiencing a second (and big) covid wave. I figured it would spill over to Shenzhen. I didn't expect it to be so bad they'd shut down the whole city.

In an ideal world, we'd be able to sell through all the inventory we produce within ~90 days (the ideal rate of 4x / year, according to accountants, or 91.25 days, to be exact), but also be able to REPLACE that inventory at the same pace, i.e, every ~90 days.

For a hypothetical example - if you had to produce 1000 widgets at a time (as a minimum), and it took 10 days to sell those 1000, but 20 days to produce them, you'd order 2000 at a time, every 10 days. Conversely, if it took 10 days to produce, but 20 days to sell, you'd order 1000 at a time, every 20 days.

The problem for watch brands is we don't know how quickly new inventory will sell, nor do we really know for certain how long it will take to produce. We're trying to predict future demand and delivery times, months in advance.

Selling through the inventory in ~90 days is the easier part. We could produce in smaller numbers, and / or price lower. The challenge with the first part of that solution is we have to produce at least enough to satisfy all our vendors' MOQ's. The problem with the second is that under-pricing deprives the business of much-needed cash.

Even if we could or did sell through all that inventory in 90 days or less, if it takes more than 90 days to replace it (which it does take), then we'd be sold out for the interim, creating that "artificial scarcity" WIS like to complain about.

The effect would be a triple-whammy of problems - less margin on the product we sell (reducing cash flow), no cash flow at all once we sold out, plus damage to the brand's goodwill with target customers, who may believe we're creating the problem deliberately (and in some cases, they'd be right).

The uneasy compromise we make is to accept that most of our inventory is going to sell within the first 90 days, and the remainder will linger for some indeterminate time. This gives us something to sell while we wait for the next delivery of new inventory, and avoids starving the business of cash, by under-pricing, as well as avoiding the appearance that we're "always sold out".

It's impossible to calculate the exact numbers, across all our releases, but my back-of-the-envelope math suggests we sell through 80% of what we make within 90 days, on average, and the rest generally within 180 days, but for the last 1-4 pieces of some SKUs, which inevitably seem to get "stuck" in some part of the world where there is less demand (prompting my occasional listing of last-one and low-number SKUs).

Rather than retrospectively monitoring the remaining inventory on the most recent release as an indicator of when to produce more, I look at total remaining inventory for all releases, and try to keep that number within a range that seems "right", based on all factors.

When I see that 10%, 20%, or 30% of inventory remains, how I feel about that really depends on when I look at it, and the bigger picture.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Trying to Ghost Daylight savings
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Thanks. I like this texture a lot, it seems to be not used very often.


It seems like it's getting more use lately, since we started using it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> see this is the kind of stuff I hang out here for.. Where else would you get to nerd out with this type of detail from the brand owner
> 
> to the point - to my untrained eye the change from the first colour to the 2nd seems smaller than from the second to the third, so maybe that's why it was less apparent. Plus over the past few years you probably increased your audience quite a bit, so more people had the chance to notice.
> 
> I might have picked this one up from RotorRonin. On a different place, by a different username, but I have the feeling they might be one and the same person.


Indeed he does frequent other places, using other names. 

I think he might be on the lam from the law.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> [a lot]


Thanks for letting us peek behind the curtain! It's kind of good to see that one isn't the only one in an awkward situation; the "beer game" for goods with long lead times, jumpy customers and even a shelf life span is not easy, cf chip industry.

The bit about appearing sold out = no cash flow and grumpy audience was something I had not thought about at all yet: when the chest is empty it's hard to please folks in the next round indeed. Probably that's why some nanobrands never make it beyond fundmywatchhobby.com.


One way out would be becoming a "boutique manufacturer", as they'd call it in the world of guitar effect pedals: they are in the realm "above just high quality but below just show-off luxury":double your costs for quality (and marketing...) and triple the price, but again, not easy to pull off, since MOQ are the same. That spot, 2+kUSD is already pretty tough for watches, too.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

dumb question, but are the end links for the bracelets removeable? I dont think i see a screw head, kina looks like a push pin or a permanent rivet. This is in reference to my Amphion Vintage Gilt bracelet.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> It seems like it's getting more use lately, since we started using it.


Who else is using this? 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Thanks for letting us peek behind the curtain! It's kind of good to see that one isn't the only one in an awkward situation; the "beer game" for goods with long lead times, jumpy customers and even a shelf life span is not easy, cf chip industry.
> 
> The bit about appearing sold out = no cash flow and grumpy audience was something I had not thought about at all yet: when the chest is empty it's hard to please folks in the next round indeed. Probably that's why some nanobrands never make it beyond fundmywatchhobby.com.
> 
> ...


I hadn't heard of "the beer game". The google machine's first search results are a web page for said app, and a wiki article describing it as an educational app dealing with supply chain issues.

Skimming the first section of the wiki, I spotted reference to the bullwhip effect, which I first encountered in reading an ABTW article on the watch industry, here - aBlogtoWatch Perspective: Morgan Stanley Report On The Watch Industry's Biggest Problems In 2019 & Beyond | aBlogtoWatch

Much like poker (my other passion), running a watch brand is a game of incomplete information. Success can hinge on one's ability to use past data and logic to make reasonable predictions about the future.

But even if a brand owner were REALLY good at prognostication, the truth is that there are just too many moving parts and disconnected actors to achieve a high degree of confidence in one's predictions, which inevitably leads to some largely intractable problems.

To wit...

1. I saw a survey of watch blog readers (can't remember which blog it was, but it was one of the big ones), which indicated the majority of WIS take 6 months to research a potential purchase. Or maybe that was the average. Whichever it was, it doesn't matter for me to make my point, which is this - how the hell is a watch brand going to turn its inventory over every 3 months (four times per year, as accountants insist we should), when our customers want to take 6 months to consider a purchase?

2. Following from the above, if a brand DOES succeed in achieving a 4x/year turnover, but that brand does NOT keep most if not all models in constant production, that will inevitably lead to many (most?) WIS finding that the watch they want sold out three months before they finally made up their mind to buy it. That will no doubt lead to the lighting of torches and sharpening of pitchforks, in response to the brand's creation of "artificial scarcity".

3. Speaking as the owner of a brand that has achieved a turnover of (or close enough to) 4x/year, I once thought that over time, the market would learn that despite its preferences to take 6 months to consider a purchase, that simply can't be done with NTH, inasmuch as most of what we produce will sell out within 90 days. While I think SOME customers have adjusted to that reality, we nonetheless still receive communication from people who can't fathom why we don't keep everything we've ever made in constant production, or why we would discontinue some models.

4. As detailed above, how do we maintain turnover of 90 days when production takes 150-180?

5. Our vendors' MOQ's really complicate matters. If I could quickly whip up a small number of watches to meet immediate demand, life would be so much easier. That's hard to do when we have to produce 50 per dial, 300 per strap or bracelet, 500 per case, etc. 

As loathe as I am to use Kobold as a positive example, my understanding from a former employee of that brand is that they were able to approximate that sort of "just in time manufacturing" by using the same cases for all models, and doing final assembly domestically.

I spoke to Marc from Long Island Watch, to get his take on deciding when or if to produce more of something, and how many. Marc does A LOT more volume than I do, and has been at this a while longer, so I value his insights, especially since he's added his own Islander brand to the other brands his store sells, giving him the perspective of both the manufacturer and the brand owner.

Like many brand owners, he's also found that whatever numbers were produced in an initial production run, demand for subsequent runs always seems to be less. He said he might adopt the strategy of making everything single-productions, "one and done", with no second or subsequent productions of anything, once the first production is sold out.

That's the typical microbrand business model, which comes with a lot of inefficiencies. It's generally better when a company can extend the lifecycle of a product.

I've considered adopting a mode of production somewhat like Kobold's (in response to your point about becoming a "boutique" brand selling in that $2k range). We could have all the parts we produce shipped here, to be assembled in smaller batches, or even on-demand.

There again, that presents some challenges. Any mistakes in the production of any component would become my headache to cure, whereas now those problems belong to my OEM, and are for them to sort out. One of the owners of another brand, that does domestic assembly, recently acknowledged that is indeed an occasional problem for them, whereas it's rarely a problem for me.

In my opinion, Kobold's were over-priced, generally, but part of what people were paying for was the expense involved in a business maintaining stock of parts for as-needed / on-demand assembly "someday". The price reflected the more customized service as much as the intrinsic cost of the components. I believe that business model requires a higher tolerance for risk than the model I currently have, selling at a lower price point.

NTH is a balancing act. The prices reflect our obvious costs as well as the not-obvious costs. We could deliver more, but only if we charged more. We could charge less, but only if we delivered less. The way the business is set up to run is driven by a combination of my values and my core competencies. Just like my shoes wouldn't fit anyone with bigger or smaller feet, my business wouldn't fit anyone without my values and skill set (which isn't to suggest my values or skill set are "better", only that they're not ubiquitous).

What I've found, over and over again, is that there is no "secret formula" to this business. The guys from MVMT rode off into the sunset with millions, but their product was crap. I've tried to muster up the motivation to make a crap product, out of sheer greed, but just can't seem to find it, to my unending disappointment in myself. I recently heard of a newer brand doing a lot of volume. It sounded great, but they're under-pricing by at least 20%, and spending an obscene amount of money on digital advertising, which doesn't appear to be cost-effective. For all the appearance of "success" it creates, all that extra volume ends up being a lot of work for not a lot of money, and an inherently risky business.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> dumb question, but are the end links for the bracelets removeable? I dont think i see a screw head, kina looks like a push pin or a permanent rivet. This is in reference to my Amphion Vintage Gilt bracelet.


No worries. I get dumb questions all the time.

In theory, they are removable, assuming you can get a tool into the hole of the link and push out the "permanent" pin holding the end-link and the next link in the bracelet together. Otherwise, no, they are not removable, inasmuch as the assembly is meant to be permanent.

Someone who really hated the end-link wanted to argue that specific point with me recently, by insisting that the end-links are removable, when I said they weren't. Hence, my obtuse explanation above.

Short answer - no, not removable.

Long answer - yes, removable, if you can remove them, but I don't recommend the attempt, nor will I have anything to do with repairing the likely to be disastrous results.

Since I'm here giving advice on the inadvisable, anyway...

The bracelet on the Spectre II is actually the bracelet from the Cerberus, which had a female end-link, that was removable. The bracelet was repurposed for use with the Spectre II, which required us to have new end-links made, to fit the Spectre case. The thing is, whereas the end-links for the Cerberus were attached to BOTH the case AND the bracelet with a spring bar, the Spectre II end-links weren't. We needed to "permanently" attach the end-links to the bracelet, then attach the end-links to the case with spring-bars.

The only reason I know anything about that attachment mechanism is because my vendor sent me the parts. In simplest / layman's terms, there are two parts inside the link, a male part and a female part, which, when joined, expand to completely fill the hole in the links. Friction does the rest.

I think if you did manage to get those parts out, you'd likely destroy them in the process, if not destroy the links they hold together. 

And no, we don't supply replacements for those parts. You destroy your bracelet in the process of modifying it, I'll be happy to sell you a new bracelet. I don't sell those pins.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"There's nothing good that can come from Russia invading Ukraine!"

Rolex AD's: "Au contraire, mon frere..."









Famous Swiss brands join boycott of Russia


Major and famous Swiss companies from Rolex to ABB have suspended exports to and operations in Russia, in protest against the Russian invasion of Ukraine.




www.iamexpat.ch





Good news for everyone on Rolex's waiting list, I s'pose.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> No worries. I get dumb questions all the time.
> 
> In theory, they are removable, assuming you can get a tool into the hole of the link and push out the "permanent" pin holding the end-link and the next link in the bracelet together. Otherwise, no, they are not removable, inasmuch as the assembly is meant to be permanent.
> 
> ...


Thank you brother ! I will not touch the end links. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Thank you brother ! I will not touch the end links.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can touch them. Just not too much, or you'll go blind.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Thanks. I like this texture a lot, it seems to be not used very often.





docvail said:


> It seems like it's getting more use lately, since we started using it.


The wood grain on the Antilles is horizontal. On the Azores, the wood-grain is radial (radiating outward from the center of the dial).

Other than the recently-released Zelos Spearfish, I don't recall the other brands I've seen using wood grain dial textures recently, only that I recall seeing some others.

























I got the idea from this vintage Tressa...










Does the combination of texture, color and marker style look familiar?

It should.










I try to stay original in my unoriginality.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Is Paul T (alwaysknownascrow on Instagram) from Oz here?

Bro, I think your IG was hacked...

















Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Still not as awkward as the exchange I had two years ago with my Aunt Potato...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Oh my . . .


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Oh my . . .


Yeah. 

Gossipy extended family. That aunt heard about my non-conformity from another aunt, after a conversation about it over lunch at my dad's place. 

There was a day, driving my car, when it hit me, out of the blue...

"I'm pushing 50 years old, and one of my aunts is tattling on me to another of my aunts. I'm getting yelled at like I'm a 12-year old who got caught with cigarettes. What the serious f**k?"

I freaking love being me...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Still not as awkward as the exchange I had two years ago with my Aunt Potato...
> 
> View attachment 16498322


Boy, you sure do have feisty aunts.... quite the potty mouth...
I'd hate to see what happens when they catch up with you in person! You be in for a right good 'ol slappin'! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I am glad I could make you google something - since I am learning quite a lot from your insight!

The shoe analogy is great, I've heard it in a discussion about hiring/staff development philosophy - but it fits well (ha!) here.

This is a really interesting bit which my tiny brain needs to chew on for a while:


docvail said:


> We could deliver more, but only if we charged more. We could charge less, but only if we delivered less.


The capitalist's knee jerk reaction is "moar!", but the thing with risk and shoes that fit certainly is relevant. I have a luthier in my wider circles who prefers to fix students' instruments for a song (literally!) over building a custom instrument for a "gentleman who has everything but patience, taste, and behavior"...

Thank you again, now I have to get one of those thin ~40mm watches from you, both because I am in this months long acquisition process (I wasn't aware that this is a thing!), and I sense the ethical duty to support my business lecturer...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Potato.

Marking myself safe from the Russian web-bots for another day.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Boy, you sure do have feisty aunts.... quite the potty mouth...
> I'd hate to see what happens when they catch up with you in person! You be in for a right good 'ol slappin'!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


She snubbed me at another aunt's birthday party later that year. She was literally in the middle of saying hello when she stopped and remembered "I'm not speaking to you," and turned and walked away. It was so abrupt that at first I wasn't sure it really happened.

My life is awesome.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Potato.
> 
> Marking myself safe from the Russian web-bots for another day.












For those who don't get the "Potato" thing, I give you this fine selection of Russian bots on dating apps...


























































Apparently "Potato" works to defeat Russian bots, but only angers Irish aunts.

You've been warned.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TO-DAR-O









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> TO-DAR-O
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Well played.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> The wood grain on the Antilles is horizontal. On the Azores, the wood-grain is radial (radiating outward from the center of the dial).
> 
> Other than the recently-released Zelos Spearfish, I don't recall the other brands I've seen using wood grain dial textures recently, only that I recall seeing some others.


I asked because my Vratislavia Conceptum Pan-Africa has a radial woodgrain dial (as does their Pan-Europe, in blue), and I didn't know what to call it:


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I think Straton did that kind of radial pattern on one of their releases? Maybe I'm misremembering...

It's interesting hearing someone call out the different blues... At work, I frequently have to do color comparisons, but I guess because I was just not that concerned about the Nacken Modern to notice the difference through different variations.

That said, the color comparison is really interesting. Not maybe particularly compared to potato, but...

I did a Vostok mod with a Rafflestime Pelagos-style sterile dial and I really, really liked the color used. Also, I just picked up a Tudor BB36, same thing - great blue color. To that end, I think either of the newer colors would do it for me, for different reasons, even if the v1.1 version was probably closest to the Rafflestime color I really liked, where the new color leans more Pelagos...


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## Danny.Giannetti2 (Aug 17, 2021)

Hello Doc,

Any chance of getting the Nazario Ghost back into production? O

Thx!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> I asked because my Vratislavia Conceptum Pan-Africa has a radial woodgrain dial (as does their Pan-Europe, in blue), and I didn't know what to call it:
> 
> View attachment 16499701


Indeed. They appear similar, and I'd suspect the texture is created the same way, via stamping it into the dial.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Danny.Giannetti2 said:


> Hello Doc,
> 
> Any chance of getting the Nazario Ghost back into production? O
> 
> ...


Probably not, but I try to never say never.

Maybe try posting a WTB thread in the sales forum, and setting up alerts on eBay and WatchRecon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I think Straton did that kind of radial pattern on one of their releases? Maybe I'm misremembering...
> 
> It's interesting hearing someone call out the different blues... At work, I frequently have to do color comparisons, but I guess because I was just not that concerned about the Nacken Modern to notice the difference through different variations.
> 
> ...


Good memory. Straton Tourer.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I think Straton did that kind of radial pattern on one of their releases? Maybe I'm misremembering...
> 
> It's interesting hearing someone call out the different blues... At work, I frequently have to do color comparisons, but I guess because I was just not that concerned about the Nacken Modern to notice the difference through different variations.
> 
> ...


Discussed before, but reiterated now...

Trying to match our dial colors (especially blues), which require us to specify Pantones, to the bezel colors, which are just made-up colors our plating vendor uses (with no clue about the RGB values or any other way to discern their exact shade of "blue"), was a challenge. 

In addition to the two previous iterations of the Näcken Modern Blue, we also had the Näcken Vintage Blue, the Amphion Vintage Blue, the Scorpene Blue, the Vanguard, the Nazario Azzurro, and the Barracuda Blue. 

Those last four all had sunburst finishes, and two or three of those also had color fades. Those more reflective finishes and color fades make the appearance of the dials shift so much with the light, it was really hard to know if the dial color really matched the bezel color, especially when the bezel color can shift with the light, too. 

I think the color we used on the Odin Blue is as close as it gets, which is why we made that "THE" official NTH blue, for use on the Thresher, Swiftsure, and the new Näcken Modern Blue. With a matte dial finish, it's much easier to tell.

I don't have one of the new Näckens in my own collection, but I just returned to the office from Dan's shop, where he had one. The match between dial and bezel is spot-on, IMO.

Personally, I don't like the Tudor Pelagos blue, which I think is just too bright.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Glowing TO-DAR-O









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Odin time, on a RIOS 1931 Jersey strap


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Odin time, on a RIOS 1931 Jersey strap
> 
> View attachment 16501356


That 6 o'clock date though!!!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The 6 o'clock date position is criminally underused. Like the fully indexed bezel insert.

I had a dream about an NTH watch. It had a blue dial and a plain steel or light gray bezel insert. So that's something I'm probably going to make happen.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> The 6 o'clock date position is criminally underused. Like the fully indexed bezel insert.
> 
> I had a dream about an NTH watch. It had a blue dial and a plain steel or light gray bezel insert. So that's something I'm probably going to make happen.


Where have we seen the gray-on-blue NTH before....


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> That 6 o'clock date though!!!


Colour matched date wheel and still room for a 6 o'clock index, that's cool


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Sorry to talk off-brand here (Doc close your ears), has anyone tried any of the Nodus watches?
The Sector pilot looks cool


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Sorry to talk off-brand here (Doc close your ears), has anyone tried any of the Nodus watches?
> The Sector pilot looks cool


We talk other brands here all the time. Hell, even Doc does. 

I have no personal experience with Nodus though. But I have looked at 'em. They've just never grabbed me enough to click the buy button.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Sorry to talk off-brand here (Doc close your ears), has anyone tried any of the Nodus watches?
> The Sector pilot looks cool


I know @kpjimmy has at least one. I also like the Sector pilot, despite my preference for no-date designs.

Full disclosure, I know and am friendly with Wes and Cullen from Nodus.

I think they do good work, all around - solid designs, solid quality, solid support. They're smart and passionate about what they do.

Buy with confidence.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I know @kpjimmy has at least one. I also like the Sector pilot, despite my preference for no-date designs.
> 
> Full disclosure, I know and am friendly with Wes and Cullen from Nodus.
> 
> ...


Yep. Just got the Avalon 2. I also have their Black Duality, Sector Pilot, 2 sector fields, 2 contrails.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Contrails?
















Contrails







xkcd.com





but yes nice watches, the back bezel ring is at least different and makes the braver colors pop in top view. Side view, the black ring is a bit strange on photos, but I think it's better in/on person.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

VH944 said:


> Contrails?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Sorry to talk off-brand here (Doc close your ears), has anyone tried any of the Nodus watches?
> The Sector pilot looks cool


I bought and sold a Nodus Sector Sport (salmon/copper dial). Great quality, excellent features, VFM... I see the owners very involved in social media, and event appearances - by all accounts, they are stand-up dudes who are passionate about teh watchez. 

Reason for selling was strictly personal taste. Apparently I'm just not a salmon/copper dial kinda guy. Also, that particular model wore a bit bulky for what it was. 

Quality compared favorably with Hamilton Khaki Field Auto, and considering the price differential, I'd stack it up against a Monta Triumph.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> ...considering the price differential, I'd stack it up against a Monta Triumph.


You're saying that regardless of the price difference, you'd put the Nodus on the same level as Monta? You're asking people to flame you if that's what you're saying (not me, because I wouldn't, but, people).

It's been a while since I've seen or held a recent-production Nodus in hand. I probably talk to Wes 2x-3x per year. I know they're sourcing components directly from the individual manufacturers (not going through and OEM, as I do), and they feel very confident that they're getting the best quality available from China, or close to it.

I don't have any reason to doubt them. I'm just reserving judgment until I can form my own opinion, with one in hand.

My previous opinion of their earlier productions (circa 2016-2018) was that their quality wasn't yet equal to ours. I'm willing to assume it is equal, now, and could possibly be even better. I wouldn't say unequivocally that we're getting the absolute best, but I do believe we're getting the best which is available to us, which is very close to the best the country can produce.

(I'm making a subtle distinction here, between the absolute best quality you can get from China, which a small brand may not be able to get, and the best quality the small brands are able to get, which is very close. I'm not looking for an argument with Wes or anyone else, just quibbling over our use and understanding of "best".)

The argument to never be won is - how does the best quality available in China stack up to what you're getting for from Europe (and at what price)?

I know the labor rate in China is (or in recent years it was) around 1/10th what it is in Switzerland. A recent convo with the owner of a brand doing manufacturing in Switzerland suggested steel component costs could be 4x-6x as much. We didn't get into granular detail regarding varying levels of quality, so my assumption was that he was making a "quality being equal" comparison of costs.

So, logically, it stands to reason that the "best" Chinese-manufactured watch should hold up well in a comparison with a well-made Swiss Made watch which costs 4x as much (give or take), which is about the difference between Nodus and Monta prices (without forcing myself to do the math required to adjust for differences in specs and components).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

@kpjimmy - how do the DevilRay and Avalon compare in how they wear? Does one feel bigger? Other thoughts?

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> You're saying that regardless of the price difference, you'd put the Nodus on the same level as Monta?


No. I'm saying that dollar/unit of quality value, Nodus ranks way up there. 

It's just the usual law of diminishing returns:
Nodus Sector Sport: $450
Monta Triumph: $1700

Is the Nodus better quality? Nope.
Is the Monta nearly 4x better quality? Also nope.

These are watches which fall neatly into the same category, with similar dimensions. I briefly owned a Sector; I fondled a Triumph at a watch show. The Monta is worth the asking price; the Nodus is nearly a bargain.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> @kpjimmy - how do the DevilRay and Avalon compare in how they wear? Does one feel bigger? Other thoughts?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


The DR vs Avalon II;

TLDR: the DR seems to wear thicker than the Avalon. 

The DR lug to lug is a bit shorter than the Avalon, to me. I like both a lot. But find myself reaching for the DR on the warmer days because they're harder to tuck under a cuff.

The Avalon is a spring/fall wear. DR is a summer wear for me. This is not set in stone, just my thoughts. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Sorry to talk off-brand here (Doc close your ears), has anyone tried any of the Nodus watches?
> The Sector pilot looks cool


I dipped my toe into the Nodus pond because I fancied an orange dialed diver. The crown at the 4 was a nice point of difference and the bezel edge also interesting. The case has a different look due to some lovely bevelling on the edges. 

It's well finished and worth a look if any of their models ring your bell.









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> No. I'm saying that dollar/unit of quality value, Nodus ranks way up there.
> 
> It's just the usual law of diminishing returns:
> Nodus Sector Sport: $450
> ...


Hmmm....

The "punches above its weight" trope comes to mind.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> The DR vs Avalon II;
> 
> TLDR: the DR seems to wear thicker than the Avalon.
> 
> ...


That's about what I expected. Dimensions alone don't always tell the full story. My impression of the Avalon is that it wears wider yet flatter, perhaps more like a 2K1, whereas the DevilRay is "chonky" by comparison. 

I don't remember the exact dates, but my recollection is that they revealed the design for the Avalon very soon after we revealed the DevilRay. I'm not suggesting one inspired the other. Just the opposite, I think we all found it strangely coincidental that we were working on those two models at the same time. 

It seems to me that we took two very different approaches to the challenge. The few similarities beyond the basic shape - namely the contours of the case sides and bottom - show how ergonomics played into the development of both.

I've never asked the Nodus guys about their design process, but my suspicion would be that they start with saying something like, "let's make a turtle-shaped diver", and go from there, creating something from scratch, without much if any referring back to prior art. The result is something that doesn't invite comparisons to any particular source of inspiration.

By contrast, our approach typically starts with a question, like, "how can we make something like the Doxa or Certina DS-whatever, but improve on that concept in some way?" There is a lot of referring back to prior art, looking for the cues we want to keep vs change in some way. The result obviously invites comparisons to the inspiration's source.

When they showed me the Avalon back in 2018, I told them I thought the case was really well designed, perhaps their best work yet (case design kind of being my thing). I still think it's some of their best work, but the Sector pilots are also up there.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> The "punches above its weight" trope comes to mind.


Godz, I hate that cliche. But yeah. 

If it were 1.5mm thinner and 1mm shorter L2L, it might have been a winner. As it is, I would not hesitate recommending Nodus to anyone for whom the design and size works. No worries about the quality, at all. High VFM proposition.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Godz, I hate that cliche. But yeah.
> 
> If it were 1.5mm thinner and 1mm shorter L2L, it might have been a winner. As it is, I would not hesitate recommending Nodus to anyone for whom the design and size works. No worries about the quality, at all. High VFM proposition.


VFM makes me itchy as well. Value and VFM are the same thing when discussing purchasable products. How can product value be for anything other the money? Somehow FM got tacked onto V on this forum. It's just value.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Godz, I hate that cliche. But yeah.
> 
> If it were 1.5mm thinner and 1mm shorter L2L, it might have been a winner. As it is, I would not hesitate recommending Nodus to anyone for whom the design and size works. No worries about the quality, at all. High VFM proposition.


Note I didn't state whether I thought the cliche applied to Nodus or Monta. I think I could argue this from almost any side - that it applies to both, or one or the other but not both.

Without offering any specific opinion, I think the state of affairs in the industry creates questions which are difficult, and in some instances uncomfortable to answer, such as...

Comparing something like a Nodus to other watches in the same price range (not comparing it to something 4x more, like a Monta), how does it compare?

It seems like a lot of watches in that range are described as "punching above their weight," based on comparisons to more expensive watches. But if that's true about a majority of them, then could we not argue that all those watches are simply punching at their weight, not above it, and any that aren't are just failing to keep up with the pack?

Likewise, how does the Monta compare to other watches in its range? All the commentary I've read suggests the Montas hold up very well in comparison to watches which cost 2x as much, but I haven't seen much to tell me how the Montas compare to others in their same range. How would a $2100 Monta Ocean King stack up against an $1800 Formex Reef or a ~$2400 Sinn?

Making comparisons between a Nodus and a Monta is tricky, because the specs and components are different, where they were made is different, and their quality is different (assuming it actually is).

One might argue that Nodus is a bargain compared to a Monta, based on the price difference, but might not be a bargain compared to other watches in its price range, if they're all punching above their weight.

(Again, I'm not making this or any other argument, merely observing that everyone who offers an opinion on brands they buy in this space seems happy with their quality / value, arguably making none of the watches in the space a stand-out.)

Or, one might argue that the Monta is a bargain compared to other watches in its range, or above its range (because it too punches above its weight), but not compared to a Nodus, since the price difference is so much larger than the quality difference, if there is any difference.

Things get even trickier if you want to compare a $700 Nodus Duality to a $585 Traska Venturer. Same movement. Same point of manufacturing. Slightly different specs. Substantial difference in price. Any difference in quality is going to be a subject for debate.

If someone thinks, "why buy a $1700 Monta when I can get a $450 Nodus?", is it not somewhat logical to ask, "why buy a $700 Nodus when I can get a $585 Traska?" If the Monta isn't 4x better than the Nodus, is the Nodus 20% better than the Traska? How do we even quantify any differences?

As a manufacturer, I often think there are differences to be seen and felt, but they're not often obvious enough for most enthusiasts to notice. Even among manufacturers and brand owners - we can differ in our opinions.

A lot of the discussion about this stuff reveals a persistent urge to convert our subjective preferences into objective comparisons. I see it when someone conflates their preference for a male or female end-link with a component of value, as just one example.

This renders opinions like "punches above its weight" fairly meaningless, just a way to say we think we made a smart purchase, because we're happy with the result. Yet we could play that "but what about X?" game all day long, with almost any watch.

When someone asks, "how's X watch?" I find my own thoughts are now most frequently limited to:

1. "Good" (because I like it.)

2. "Meh" (because I don't.)

3. "Stay away" (based on seeing many online complaints.)

But merely saying "good" doesn't seem adequate for the intricacies of online watch discussion.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> VFM makes me itchy as well. Value and VFM are the same thing when discussing purchasable products. How can product value be for anything other the money? Somehow FM got tacked onto V on this forum. It's just value.


I see many who conflate "specs / components for the price" with value for money. I don't think they're the same, inasmuch as there are intangible and subjective aspects of "value" which defy inclusion in a list of specs and components.

It seems to me that people who do that are just finding another way to make an attempt at logically rationalizing an emotional purchase using un-emotional, logical "reasons".

But we're not buying a pile of specs and components, nor are we simply buying a watch, I would argue, if the purpose is merely to know the time. We're purchasing a feeling of recurring happiness, which results from the total package, tangible and intangible qualities combined.

If you like one design more than another, how much is that worth to you? How about presentation? Support? The overall customer experience, end-to-end? All debatable, as most are generally un-measurable.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

VH944 said:


> Contrails?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Contrails! dmjonez would be the resident expert. ✈


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Wow...










A'ight... suffice it to say that, for anyone interested, at least this guy thinks that Nodus quality and finishing are spot-on. These are my subjective feelz, based on very limited ownership of one particular model variant. 

Never had to lean on warranty or service, but the owners seem to be responsive, likable, visible principals who stand behind their product.

Based on this - alone, without comparison to other watches or brands - I find they represent decent value.

YMMV.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> Contrails! dmjonez would be the resident expert. ✈


These guys nailed marketing that stuff:

Chemtrail Tank

And here's a shot of me leaving a pair, taken from a C-17, right after I passed them.










PS: just to keep this from going too far off-track:








Dihydrogen monoxide parody - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Wow...
> 
> View attachment 16506158
> 
> ...


Please don't mistake anything I said as arguing against anything you said. To me, this is all discussion, not debate.

I just think so much of the online discussion falls short of being truly helpful, to the extent we frequently get caught up in concepts like "value for money" without acknowledging that the specs and components, and even the quality, aren't really good proxies for whether or not a watch makes us happy, post-purchase.

All the objective goodness of specs and quality won't overcome a design which doesn't thrill you.

I think Nodus offers good quality and good value, too. What I can't answer is whether or not someone else is going to love the watch, long-term, as that's a completely different question. I also think NTH offers good quality and good value. And yet we still get people (occasionally) who, for whatever reason, don't love the watch. 

My point above was that our subjective opinions of these things tend to be reflections of our deeper feelings, which aren't typically discussed. Easier to argue over the value for money than it is to admit we love a design so much we just had to have it, and as a result we were able to rationalize the purchase price. But most of those arguments follow a predictable pattern, and ultimately reveal nothing of universal usefullness.

Set aside people's perceptions about the quality and value, I think Nodus does good design work. If someone asks about a Nodus, I assume they agree. Otherwise, why are they asking? And all they're really asking is, "is the quality good enough for the price, or should I stay away because it's crap?"

All the ensuing debates are just folks engaging in emotion-protective argle-bargle, unless the debates are over things that are actually going to have an impact on people's post-purchase happiness.

Because, as I've often said, this is a hobby. It's supposed to lead to happiness. Happiness is the only result that matters.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Hm...I have a Monta Atlas, a number of Nodus' watches and also a number of NTHs, Visitor, and Aevig. Other than that, I have an average of 2 per micro that I normally buy. So I have a weird selection of watches one may say. 

Every one of them have a place and reason to wear IMO. Otherwise I would sell it. At this time I am on the fence on selling a few of ones I am not wearing, so there's that long term wear thing. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Please don't mistake anything I said as arguing against anything you said. To me, this is all discussion, not debate.


Oh, godz, no. Been around here too much to think of it as anything but discussion.



docvail said:


> I just think so much of the online discussion falls short of being truly helpful, to the extent we frequently get caught up in concepts like "value for money" without acknowledging that the specs and components, and even the quality, aren't really good proxies for whether or not a watch makes us happy, post-purchase.
> 
> All the objective goodness of specs and quality won't overcome a design which doesn't thrill you.
> 
> ...


OK, let me take another shot.

It really appealed to me. I was not disappointed at all with the level of quality Nodus provides at that price point. The only thing that kept it from sticking around were some of the measurements... which I knew were on the ragged edge of acceptable, but because of everything I heard about the brand, and the overall design, I was willing to give it a shot. Bzzt - still no, but only because of personal preference. The design and execution made me happy; the reality of it on wrist revealed some design aspects which left me less than happy. Enough to sell it along, not without some regret.

When someone else asks about quality, what is there to say. Met my threshold, easily. On par with Zelos (less expensive), Seiko (both sides of the cost spectrum), Hamilton (more expensive), and NTH (more expensive). Better than most AliX fare (less expensive).

No joke, sure, I would compare it with Monta, to provide an outlier. Is quality as good? No. Can I tell you why, in an empirical way, beyond feelz? Also no. Just one opinion, one data point.

Oh a quality scale of HMT Janata to Monta Triumph, it is way closer to a Monta than an HMT...

It gets down to my personal perception of "quality" vs. someone else's. If they take my impression of Nodus quality, look around at what watches I prefer, thread opinions voiced elsewhere, etc., maybe they can use my thoughts as some kind of benchmark. Or, "Dude, that guy is way too easy, what a watch wh0re! Do not respek opinion!"

Opinion is only ever relative, subjective. That has to be assumed. I'm no watch quality authority. I can only speak to my own perception of quality, which Nodus passes, with flying colors.

Do I think Nodus is quality? Yes.
Should you think Nodus is quality, based on my opinion? Of course not.
But add it up with other comments, other opinions, other datapoints - good and bad - and at least you can make a more informed purchase decision to find out for yourself.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I waited a few years to get a first gen Monta OceanKing with the Eterna Calibre 39 movement. When they first were introduced in 2016 I thought the price point was too high for a new watch with an untried movement. Still, it sold surprisingly well, perhaps due to the backing of Everest Straps. 

The second generation has some design tweaks but they replaced the Calibre 39 with a Top Grade Selitta. 

I must say the watch is very nice quality and the efforts that went into the design and manufacturing especially the finishing shows. The bracelet is probably one of the most comfortable I have worn, its on par with my Rolex and Omega.

Not knowing the provenance or service history I recently had it serviced by Monta.

All in all it’s a great watch to pick up second hand. After 6 years the Calibre 39 is showing it is a reliable, dependable and strong movement.

And Monta so far is sticking around so they’re proving to be no flash in the pan startup.

Having said all that though, if I have to make a quick choice to put something on my wrist, I grab my NTH.


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## Chris Hughes (Dec 5, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Oh, godz, no. Been around here too much to think of it as anything but discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems to me that all of this has been ginned up by the luxury brands. For decades consumers have been told about the amazing finish, the outstanding bracelet, the flawless bezel, the gorgeous double domed sapphire, the applied markers, the sanwoch dial! Why, you can’t get THOSE things without spending an arm and a leg!

Then along come a batch of micros that have ALL those things and more at a price that’s remarkably low by comparison…

That’s where “value for the money” comes from. We were conditioned to place a much higher value on many of these specs than they warrant.


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## Chris Hughes (Dec 5, 2010)

docvail said:


> Please don't mistake anything I said as arguing against anything you said. To me, this is all discussion, not debate.
> 
> I just think so much of the online discussion falls short of being truly helpful, to the extent we frequently get caught up in concepts like "value for money" without acknowledging that the specs and components, and even the quality, aren't really good proxies for whether or not a watch makes us happy, post-purchase.
> 
> ...


For what it’s worth I’d like to see more comparison of watches in the same price spectrum. I wonder if some of the hesitance is a resistance to pitting the small brands against one another? But you’re right that the spec battle is often waged between low cost micros and big brand mainstays instead.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Chris Hughes said:


> For what it’s worth I’d like to see more comparison of watches in the same price spectrum. I wonder if some of the hesitance is a resistance to pitting the small brands against one another? But you’re right that the spec battle is often waged between low cost micros and big brand mainstays instead.


I would welcome an objective (not subjective) comparison as well. Not enough of those!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This discussion reminds me of how people talk about cars, or airplanes. Using aircraft as an example, the prices run from a few thousand to hundreds of millions (think aliexpress to Patek). ALL of them offer some value, but when asked what is the BEST one, the answer is always dependant on the use. Go fast, go high, carry a lot, hover... 
A Gulfstream is a gorgeous aircraft, but it can't land in my backyard. A Sikorsky can do just that, but can't carry much. A C130 can carry a tank, but it can't go non-stop to Narita. An A350 can do that, but it's hundreds of millions, and requires a type rating, and you can't take the doors off. But you can take the doors off of a Piper Cub, and they're cheap. But they can't land in my backyard. And around we go...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chris Hughes said:


> For what it’s worth I’d like to see more comparison of watches in the same price spectrum. I wonder if some of the hesitance is a resistance to pitting the small brands against one another? But you’re right that the spec battle is often waged between low cost micros and big brand mainstays instead.


I think it's hard to do on a forum, because people don't want to invite an endless debate. 

I'm reminded of car comparisons in auto mags. I've liked them, but often find the journalists' conclusions at odds with their running comments (complaints) and the objective features. They always pick the BMW, even though it costs $5k more and the Lexus is better in every purely objective way. 

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I think it's hard to do on a forum, because people don't want to invite an endless debate.
> 
> I'm reminded of car comparisons in auto mags. I've liked them, but often find the journalists' conclusions at odds with their running comments (complaints) and the objective features. They always pick the BMW, even though it costs $5k more and the Lexus is better in every purely objective way.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Articles that end in some form of "It is inferior in every mechanical and quantifiable way....but...."

Drive. Me. Crazy


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm not the most reliable commentator having owned one or more for 20 years or so but BMWs are pretty good. Whether I'm driving my 3+ ton X5 or sub-2 ton M5, they both feel very alike. Sure, they're fine cars but they prioritize different aspects than do a Civic, Maxima, et al. The aircraft argument above is very apt.

I ordered a blue Monta Oceanking. I'm not particularly fond of the ceramic bezel or the price. $1000 seems to be my limit usually. Past that, it takes very careful consideration.

My expectations are that it won't be two, three, or four times "better" than my other watches. The cost here is in the manufacturing location and that's fine with me. I don't know what it costs to have a watch made but I acknowledge the differences in world labor cost.

Will it be a good watch? No doubt. Could China manufacturer something as good for less? I'm sure and yet it wouldn't fetch the "same" price. German made, China made, Swiss made, doesn't matter to me. I know what I want to spend on a watch. The Monta is an experiment for me. I realized I can read review after review, comparison after comparison but nothing can match my own personal assessment. Who knows, maybe I'll sell it next week.


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## Chris Hughes (Dec 5, 2010)

josiahg52 said:


> I'm not the most reliable commentator having owned one or more for 20 years or so but BMWs are pretty good. Whether I'm driving my 3+ ton X5 or sub-2 ton M5, they both feel very alike. Sure, they're fine cars but they prioritize different aspects than do a Civic, Maxima, et al. The aircraft argument above is very apt.
> 
> I ordered a blue Monta Oceanking. I'm not particularly fond of the ceramic bezel or the price. $1000 seems to be my limit usually. Past that, it takes very careful consideration.
> 
> ...


This same obsession exists in the camera world. Some swear by Japanese and or German made cameras only. But of course many of the best cameras are made in China and other Asian countries now. Often the biases get baked in years earlier and are difficult if not impossible to eliminate.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Chris Hughes said:


> This same obsession exists in the camera world. Some swear by Japanese and or German made cameras only. But of course many of the best cameras are made in China and other Asian countries now. Often the biases get baked in years earlier and are difficult if not impossible to eliminate.


Rifle scopes or probably optics in general, too. Japanese or German glass is held in high regard - and rightfully as it's good glass - but there's a lot of brands out there specifying very good quality glass out of China and they're assembling some decent scopes. You'd be stupid not to look at them for a plinker but they're also dabbling into the "tactical" realm. They're competing and succeeding.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

I think this can easily be extended to any consumer good that has some kind of enthusiast community attached to it. 

I like to use wine as example because I think it's quite relatable for most people. 

Is a $500 bottle of wine better than a $50 bottle? Probably. But to whom? Do you care that the wine comes from a family owned winyard that has been producing since 1876? Some people surely do, because 'heritage'. Or the winyard is defunct, and you will never be able to taste this exact wine again. Or that it's a birth year wine? Or that there's only a few bottles left in existence... Same argument with scotch bourbon, cars, art, and probably a gazillion other things.

I enjoy a nice bottle. But is my palate refined enough to really be able to appreciate the finer details of something that costs more than let's say $40 (or some arbitrary other arbitrary number).. No. Neither am I informed enough to care about the history or specific conditions of a given vintage to appreciate the 'heritage' side of things. I am simple in that regard - if it's tasty, it gets my thumbs up. But a good friend is a head sommelier in a 2* restaurant. To him, these things matter.

To bring this argument back around to watches - I've recently handled a GMT Master 2 root beer, the most expensive watch I ever held in my hands. Sure, there's some gold in there which adds to the price, but was it 20x times the watch of a (insert brand name)? That depends on what matters to you. But personally, my second thought was "diminishing returns". My first thought was that it sure was pretty but very blingy. 

The question of a uber-NTH has been raised before, and what it would have to bring to the table to warrant e.g. a doubling in price. And I am honestly not sure that there is anything, other than maybe some complications. Swiss movement? Meh, doesn't matter to me. 3% better finishing? wear it a year and all that finishing will be scratched anyways. Better dials and hands? Better by whose standard? I prefer simple dials 99% of the time. 

What's left then? Decoration and a see through caseback? coatings?


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

When you grab a watch out of your watch box in the morning and set the time only to realise by 11am that it's set to pm instead of am


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Today's goal:

Drive in a nice car, to get a nice bottle of wine, to drink while I take a nice photo of my nice watch...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I'm not the most reliable commentator having owned one or more for 20 years or so but BMWs are pretty good. Whether I'm driving my 3+ ton X5 or sub-2 ton M5, they both feel very alike. Sure, they're fine cars but they prioritize different aspects than do a Civic, Maxima, et al. The aircraft argument above is very apt.
> 
> I ordered a blue Monta Oceanking. I'm not particularly fond of the ceramic bezel or the price. $1000 seems to be my limit usually. Past that, it takes very careful consideration.
> 
> ...


I wasn't picking on BMW. I just recall a recurring theme in the letters to the editors of a few auto-mags, where guys would routinely call out the phenomenon, some going so far as to hint that the editors must be on BMW's payroll. 

I also noted how the editors would over-weight subjective ratings and under-weight objective metrics, inevitably leading to the winner of a comparison being the one that they liked most, subjectively, not necessarily the one which performed best, objectively. They never pick the faster Corvette or Nissan GT-R over the more expensive yet slower Porsche.

To bring the point back to watches - I frequently see people expressing preferences for movements or watches which defy logical explanation, if we limit our "tests" to those aspects which are purely objective. 

And especially with watches, I see a lot of "but the more expensive one is better, obviously, because [Swiss, German, etc]." Just like the car magazine writers always say the Porsche is best, because German, but allow that the Japanese Nissan put up a noble and valiant fight ("it was just out-classed", whatever that means).

Just as it is with cars, people's preferences with watches can't be explained in purely objective terms.

There's a series I've been watching on Netflix, "Fastest Car". In each episode, they pit a supercar against 3 home-built cars in a drag race, at the end of the episode. They spend the bulk of the show interviewing the drivers and following their preparations. The interviews offer an interesting look into human psychology, with all the snobbery, reverse-snobbery, bravado, insecurity, pride, hubris, etc.

I see parallels with watches. I can see the appeal in being able to own and drive a supercar, just as I'm sure there's an appeal to owning a very expensive watch. I personally just find the idea of owning a more practical car, yet one that performs like a supercar, more interesting. Ditto for watches. I prefer what we make.

My sons and I play the Forza series of video games on X-Box. In my collection of over 150 cars, there are a dozen supercars. I don't like them that much. I much prefer to drive the "lesser" cars that I've tuned for performance. My all-wheel drive BMW 3-series with a racing engine will smoke a stock Lambo Huracan. The car-building is my favorite part of the "racing" game.


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> Today's goal:
> 
> Drive in a nice car, to get a nice bottle of wine, to drink while I take a nice photo of my nice watch...


Sounds a bit like yesterday: 

Lousy, but mostly quiet day at work. Drive home in a nice car. Settle in with a nice beer (or three). Fall asleep on the couch wearing a nice watch while watching vids of nice audio components (whose manufacturers aren't having a nice time at all, apparently). 

Which leads to today, which is pretty much a repeat of yesterday, but with no work, which automatically makes it a better day regardless of whatever else might be going on.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Just a heads up, watchgeko has nearly new todaro, DR blue vintage and azores blue. all with a tidy discount. Just picked up a squale 1545


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Just a heads up, watchgeko has nearly new todaro, DR blue vintage and azores blue. all with a tidy discount. Just picked up a squale 1545


One discounted Vintage Devil Ray Blue on its way to yours truly.
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar and I owe you a pint. 🍻
Happy days indeed!


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

bigvic said:


> One discounted Vintage Devil Ray Blue on its way to yours truly.
> You sir are a gentleman and a scholar and I owe you a pint. 🍻
> Happy days indeed!


be sure to upload some pics ;-)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads-up. We've recently added some more stock to the nearly new section on the NTH site.









Nearly New


Why NTH? What does it mean? Is it “Enth” or “N-T-H”? In algebra, N represents an unknown value of infinite possibilities. The process of solving an equation to find the value of N is a process of reducing the unknown and infinite down to the known and finite.




nthwatches.com


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Nearly new Upholder w/date on an Oyster on the way from NTH.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Nearly new Upholder w/date on an Oyster on the way from NTH.


Out of curiosity, why didn't you buy the one in the sales forum? Did you not see my response to your email, with a link to it?

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Out of curiosity, why didn't you buy the one in the sales forum? Did you not see my response to your email, with a link to it?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I saw it. It was a good price but I'll eat $100 to know who I'm dealing with. Just can't be sure buying on here any longer. It just feels different than it did in the past. And I say that as someone who is trying to sell, too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I saw it. It was a good price but I'll eat $100 to know who I'm dealing with. Just can't be sure buying on here any longer. It just feels different than it did in the past. And I say that as someone who is trying to sell, too.


Out of curiosity, why does your signature appear to list all your watches, except for your NTH's?

Just sayin'...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Out of curiosity, why does your signature appear to list all your watches, except for your NTH's?
> 
> Just sayin'...


So, there's a story there. When I was new, I listed my MUCH, MUCH smaller collection and a few watches I was "hunting" or "on the prowl" for. I was chastised as that was like a WTB post. I removed the offending text. Actually, I think I just listed "Some Omegas, some xxxx, some yyyy", keeping it vague. As my collection grew, I added specific watches. Then I reached the signature character limit. That was years ago. I might try again, clean it up a bit. Definitely need to add the NTHs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I've seen people's comments saying the sales forum ain't what it used to be.

It makes me think I ought to buy up all the used watches, and sell them on my own site, if people are willing to pay more, just to buy one from me.

For whatever it's worth, I'll vouch for these guys, @CMFord and @mplsabdullah ...









SOLD ** Near New** NTH Santa Cruz - With Date


SOLD a nearly new NTH Santa Cruz with date. Bracelet is still brand new & wrapped plastic. Was only worn several times on another bracelet. I can not find any significant marks on the case other then slight marks behind the lugs from strap changes. Please see pictures for full description...




www.watchuseek.com













SOLD **Excellent Condition** NTH Barracuda Polar White...


SOLD an excellent condition NTH Barracuda Polar White with Date. Bracelet was sized however it was predominantly worn on a NATO strap. Please see pictures as full description. Asking $415 with shipping included. Thank you Prefer shipping within the U.S.A. however may ship outside under...




www.watchuseek.com













FS: NTH Odin Black w/ Unworn, unsized Bracelet, all box...


Interested in selling my NTH Odin Black for $500. The watch is in perfect working order and excellent cosmetic condition. There are a few very minor marks on the case consistent with normal wear in an office environment and the bracelet is close to new with very few marks on it at all. The...




www.watchuseek.com













FS: NTH Nacken Vintage Black w/ articulated bracelet and...


Interested in selling my NTH Nacken Vintage Black for $300. NOTE: This watch was modded by a previous owner who added a double domed sapphire crystal w/ AR coating in place of the original crystal. The effect is really nice but, do to the modification, I cannot speak to its water resistance. The...




www.watchuseek.com





I don't exactly know @Sussa , other than to see him around the forums. I think he's legit.









FS: NTH Tikuna no date - $450


Asking $450 USD Paypal G&S, shipped USPS Priority with insurance within the United States. Willing to ship OUS, but there may be an additional cost. No trades, please. Watch is in great condition, with only minor scratches on the backs and insides of the lugs due to strap changes. Bracelet is...




www.watchuseek.com





I feel like anyone with >5 years and more than a few hundred posts here deserves the benefit of the doubt...









NTH Azores blue curaçao mint


$475 shipped US via FedEx. Would trade up for a Seiko spb143, 145, 147, or 149. Plus cash obv. Specs here: https://nthwatches.com/products/azores-blue-curacao




www.watchuseek.com













FS: NACKEN MODERN BLUE, MINT !!!


Just a perfect example of the spectacular NTH NACKEN MODERN BLUE in all its glory. MINT condition, like new, complete package. Bracelet still wrapped in plastics, will come on a standard blue NATO as shown. No trades. REDUCED $500.00, all inclusive anywhere in CONUS.




www.watchuseek.com













SOLD: NTH Oberon V1 300m Diver - Reduced!


NTH Oberon with cool vintage vibe. Excellent condition. Keeps good time. Desk diving marks on clasp, but will come with brand new one still in package, ordered directly from NTH. Light marks on bracelet. Comes with extra links, boxes, no papers. Review here: NTH Oberon and Scorpène — hands-on...




www.watchuseek.com













SOLD - NTH Dolphin - Reduced to $400


SOLD - For sale is my NTH Dolphin with "pearlescent" white dial and stainless steel bezel. Dimensions as follows: Case: 40mm Lug to lug: 48mm Lug width: 20mm Thickness: 12mm A few signs of normal wear on the bracelet and clasp but nice condition overall. Asking $400 shipped (CONUS only...




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Meanwhile, over on fleabay...

Kind of rare (as in rarely seen for sale) Commander 300, Blue, no-date:









Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300 Watch | eBay


<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300 Watch. This will fit a 7.5" wrist</p>



www.ebay.com





Very rare (as in we only made five of them) DLC Barracuda Vintage Black, with date:









NTH BARRACUDA BLACK DATE DLC | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH BARRACUDA BLACK DATE DLC at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





*NOT MY LISTINGS!*

Under the heading of "pull the other one", there's also an $825 v.1 Nacken Modern Blue, a $900 Santa Cruz, and a $1,999.99 Mint (the color, not necessarily the condition) Azores.

Prices like those make me think I should NOT buy all the used watches...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah, I don't want to cast any aspersions on the seller of the Upholder you informed me of. He seemed fine and was willing to deal. He has a good reputation and background on the forum. Just . . . it's not like it used to be.


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## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

docvail said:


> I've seen people's comments saying the sales forum ain't what it used to be.
> 
> It makes me think I ought to buy up all the used watches, and sell them on my own site, if people are willing to pay more, just to buy one from me.
> 
> For whatever it's worth, I'll vouch for these guys, @CMFord ....




Thanks, Chris! I don't believe I've had a single bite at the Odin and it's at a ridiculous price now (in my opinion). I won't let it go any lower than this and I will probably wind up keeping it. It hurt a bit to list that one anyway.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Are there any Devil Ray owners who have any pics of their DR with a beads of rice bracelet?
I was looking at the Zuludiver BoR on watch gecko which has a curved or straight end option but can’t really see that the curved end is going to be a great fit.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bigvic said:


> Are there any Devil Ray owners who have any pics of their DR with a beads of rice bracelet?
> I was looking at the Zuludiver BoR on watch gecko which has a curved or straight end option but can’t really see that the curved end is going to be a great fit.


I seriously doubt it would fit well, if it fits at all, due to the recessed bezel.

You could always send them an email to ask them if it'll fit.

@Watch That Sweep


----------



## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

docvail said:


> I seriously doubt it would fit well, if it fits at all, due to the recessed bezel.
> 
> You could always send them an email to ask them if it'll fit.
> 
> @Watch That Sweep


Good thinking Batman.


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> [...] a $1,999.99 Mint (the color, not necessarily the condition) Azores


We have discussed how to position a watch brand, considering MOQ, lead times etc. - now there's someone who figured out how to serve that price bracket!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

It's raining....soo









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaaannnnnnddd....speaking of cars...

My younger son just got his learner's permit. I had to pick him and his friends up from work on Saturday, so I made him drive home.

BOOM!

He hits one of PA's "welcome to the underground" potholes.

ME: "Gezus! Dude, you need to steer around those! You'll pop a tire!"

HIM: "Okay! Damn! I didn't see it!"

BOOM!

He hits another.

ME: "For the love of God! Did you not see that one?"

Whap-whap-whap-whap comes the sound from the front right tire.

ME: "Welp, looks you boys are about to learn how to change a tire..."

I swear, one of these idiots stepped on my fingers as I was getting down to place the jack, because he and another of the idiots were looking up to take a selfie.

I almost beat another parent's kid to death that day. I was _*this*_ close to ending him.

We get the spare on, start driving away and within minutes, the low-tire pressure sensor warning is on.

We get back to the house. I look, and sure enough - spare tire is low on air.

Call from the shop this morning: "There's no fixing your tire. We've got a new one being delivered."

I literally just put new tires on the car within the last 2 months.


----------



## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> Aaaaannnnnnddd....speaking of cars...
> 
> My younger son just got his learner's permit. I had to pick him and his friends up from work on Saturday, so I made him drive home.
> 
> ...


You held it together better than I would have...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> You held it together better than I would have...


Meh. I recently turned 50. It only took me 50 years to calm down (slightly). Five years ago, I'd probably react differently. That kid would be afraid to come over the house now, if he'd stepped on my fingers back then.

My older son has a friend whose father "went out for cigarettes" and never came back when he was just a baby. Just like with all my sons' friends, I break his balls when he comes around. He's told me (twice), "You make me happy I never met my dad."

Yes, I could not be prouder.

Got the new tire on the car this afternoon. The shop manager showed me the inside of the old tire. We barely drove a quarter-mile on it before we found a spot that was safe enough to stop and change it, but the inside of the tire was full of shredded rubber. When I dropped it off, I noticed a hole with what looked like a pebble stuck in it, in the sidewall, but damn...shredded rubber inside?

Also - it turns out my car's Fender sound system includes a sub-woofer housed with the spare, under the floor of the hatch. Whoever owned my car before me must have been dyslexic or something. The whole kit was in there upside down. I was putting it back the way I found it when the mechanic showed me how it was supposed to go. I was starting to argue with him until I saw how tidy it all was when he flipped everything over.

"Your speaker was pointed down, into the floor of the trunk. It should sound better now..."

So now that guy thinks I'm an idiot...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post!

Random pic!










If you're not a military vet, trust me, that's hilarious.

One of the best stories I ever heard was a college buddy who'd been an Apache crew chief telling me how he crashed one when the pilot let him take the stick.

Good times...


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Aaaaannnnnnddd....speaking of cars...
> 
> My younger son just got his learner's permit. I had to pick him and his friends up from work on Saturday, so I made him drive home.
> 
> ...


I mean, I _think_ I am young enough to get lumped in with the tail end (or is it the "vanguard"? )of that generation. But that sort of lack of situational awareness just makes my head spin...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I mean, I _think_ I am young enough to get lumped in with the tail end (or is it the "vanguard"? )of that generation. But that sort of lack of situational awareness just makes my head spin...


I was born in March of '85. 
Which makes me 37. 
Which makes me technically a millennial.


......I hate it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I was born in March of '85.
> Which makes me 37.
> Which makes me technically a millennial.
> 
> ...


I have an alarm clock older 'n you...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I have an alarm clock older 'n you...












How them knees treatin' ya? Ya old fart.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16513068
> 
> 
> How them knees treatin' ya? Ya old fart.


I wasn't joking.

My wife wants to throw it out. I told her if she does, she better be ready to chase the garbage truck down to get it back.

Love that big ole snooze button...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I mean, c'mon! It's vintage! There's one in the radio museum...





__





Space Saver FM/AM Electronic Digital Radio General Electric Co.


Space Saver FM/AM Electronic Digital Clock Radio 7-4 Radio General Electric Co. GE; Bridgeport CT, Syracuse, build 1988, 3 pictures, 5 schematics, United




www.radiomuseum.org





It's probably valuable, and my wife wants to get rid of it!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I wasn't joking.
> 
> My wife wants to throw it out. I told her if she does, she better be ready to chase the garbage truck down to get it back.
> 
> ...


I had something incredibly similar to that growing up. 

The sh*t we get attached to, man. Like me and my original NES. Had it since 1990.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I had something incredibly similar to that growing up.
> 
> The sh*t we get attached to, man. Like me and my original NES. Had it since 1990.


Did I mention the big ole snooze button? 

My wife tried to sneak a new alarm clock past me. I spent two minutes trying to figure out how to set the alarm, how to turn it off, where the snooze button is...

No way in hell I'd be able to find the snooze button at 7am, with my eyes closed, only half emerged from REM sleep.

Told her to take that new-fangled carp back to the store where she got it, and gimme back old Yeller!

Sort of like cars - I miss the simpler days, before computers and cupholders. A cup of hot coffee nestled in your crotch is the best driving teacher on the planet.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Did I mention the big ole snooze button?
> 
> My wife tried to sneak a new alarm clock past me. I spent two minutes trying to figure out how to set the alarm, how to turn it off, where the snooze button is...
> 
> ...


Even though I have a Google ecosystem, I only use Echo show as my alarm clock. The entire top of the Echo is the snooze button. It's perfect. I tried the Google/Lenovo versions and it's horrible. You can't even change the alarm. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Did I mention the big ole snooze button?
> 
> My wife tried to sneak a new alarm clock past me. I spent two minutes trying to figure out how to set the alarm, how to turn it off, where the snooze button is...
> 
> ...


A mate recently took his son and a couple of his mates out for a drive in his now vintage '67 Holden (Aussie branded GM).

One of the boys couldn't work out how to open the window.... no button.  Apparently winding the handle didn't occur to him .

We are doomed...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> A mate recently took his son and a couple of his mates out for a drive in his now vintage '67 Holden (Aussie branded GM).
> 
> One of the boys couldn't work out how to open the window.... no button.  Apparently winding the handle didn't occur to him .
> 
> ...


We still say "roll the window down", even though I'm sure no one under the age of 27 would know what to do with a handle on one.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> We still say "roll the window down", even though I'm sure no one under the age of 27 would know what to do with a handle on one.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Hang up the phone


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> A mate recently took his son and a couple of his mates out for a drive in his now vintage '67 Holden (Aussie branded GM).
> 
> One of the boys couldn't work out how to open the window.... no button.  Apparently winding the handle didn't occur to him .
> 
> ...


My then 16-year-old son berated me as a father, when I hadn't taught him how to drive a stick. I found a nice beater with a manual, and he learned. He's now 30, and drives this. And tells me he need not lock the door, as a manual transmission is the perfect theft deterrence. No one else can drive it.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> We still say "roll the window down", even though I'm sure no one under the age of 27 would know what to do with a handle on one.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


A few years back, as punishment for the field guys for not looking after our support trucks, our fleet manager ordered 6 x 3/4 ton trucks with crank windows. Paid extra for the power window delete, and added months to the delivery time…


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Todaro Tuesday









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> A few years back, as punishment for the field guys for not looking after our support trucks, our fleet manager ordered 6 x 3/4 ton trucks with crank windows. Paid extra for the power window delete, and added months to the delivery time…
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Your fleet manager is a savage, a man after my own heart.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Todaro Tuesday
> View attachment 16514019
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


What bracelet is that?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> What bracelet is that?


Uncle seiko Holzer




__





Watch this story by Jim L/ kpjimmy on Instagram before it disappears.







instagram.com





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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

My nearly new watchgeko acquisition.
Looks all the better for lack of mercedes hands and cyclops imo.
Build quality ok, brushing on the lugs is not as fine as you would expect, crown and bezel action are very good. Lume is a defo weak point, especially on those skinny 6 and 9 batons.
Will see how the ETA performs over a couple of days.

Nice to have a different brand in my collection, currently it's Seiko x 8, NTH x3, Steinhart x1, Squale x1


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not that we haven't had auto transmission cars in the past and won't have them again in the future, but we are currently a two-manual-transmission-car family. Add in the motorcycles, and it makes 4 vehicles, all manual shift.

There's a hilarious video out there somewhere of some younger kids trying to figure out a rotary phone... We stumbled on it, when the mrs-ish was involved with production of a kid theater play, an old princess phone was a prop, and she had to instruct the clueless kids how to actually use it.










Even my coffee grinder is manual...


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## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Manual Car, Automatic Watch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

My family use to own a dairy. In my late teens/early twenties one of my summer jobs was to cover for the route drivers when they went on vacation, so I had to learn to drive a Divco delivery truck similar to the one below. You stood up while driving. Three on the tree shifting with a big knob on the stick with finger indents that you twisted for the throttle. Two floor pedals, a round one about 2" dia. that was an additional throttle, and a conventional rectangular pedal which was a combination clutch (about half way down), brake (further down) and parking brake (all the way down till locked). A challenge to learn how to drive, but kinda fun after I got the hang of it.
My experience learning to drive a Farmall 100 at 11 is a whole other story


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Johnboy0103 said:


> View attachment 16514091
> 
> 
> My nearly new watchgeko acquisition.
> ...


My Watchgecko vintage blue DevilRay arrived as well today, popped a NMD Hook strap whilst I resize the bracelet and took a quick & dirty side by side pic with its sibling just before the sun went down.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Took the Upholder out for its first game of golf today. It gets to come back again as I scored well.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bigvic said:


> My Watchgecko vintage blue DevilRay arrived as well today, popped a NMD Hook strap whilst I resize the bracelet and took a quick & dirty side by side pic with its sibling just before the sun went down.


Looks good, Vic. Enjoy it and wear it in good health.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

bigvic said:


> My Watchgecko vintage blue DevilRay arrived as well today, popped a NMD Hook strap whilst I resize the bracelet and took a quick & dirty side by side pic with its sibling just before the sun went down.


Looks great! Have to admit at first glance the new DR looked like a CW. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Uncle seiko Holzer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aka the "Mexican Holzer" on the Uncle Seiko site, apparently.

It looks a lot like the v.2 Tropics bracelet, the style for which I've never had a name. I'd never heard of "Holzer" or "Mexican Holzer", but a search with the google machine turned up results leading me to understand they're closely associated with vintage Omega Speedmasters.

I suppose I might ought maybe update the product pages for the v.2 Tropics, when I get around to it.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Not that we haven't had auto transmission cars in the past and won't have them again in the future, but we are currently a two-manual-transmission-car family. Add in the motorcycles, and it makes 4 vehicles, all manual shift.
> 
> There's a hilarious video out there somewhere of some younger kids trying to figure out a rotary phone... We stumbled on it, when the mrs-ish was involved with production of a kid theater play, an old princess phone was a prop, and she had to instruct the clueless kids how to actually use it.
> 
> ...


A Hario...I like. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I learned to drive in a '69 Ford F150 with three on the tree hauling hay or the tractors or some implement to the next field. Legally, it was in a 1993 Dodge Caravan automatic and '77 Power Wagon with a 4-speed. Now, I own a 2018 Ram 2500 with a 6-speed and a 2001 M5 also with a 6-speed. The 2011 X5 is an auto but it's a diesel like the 2500. I would have liked the truck to have manual locks and doors but like manufacturers are wont to do, they used all the power stuff they had left over as they were approaching a model update. My truck is actually well optioned even for the base model as such. It does have rubber flooring instead of carpet which I love.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

bigvic said:


> My Watchgecko vintage blue DevilRay arrived as well today, popped a NMD Hook strap whilst I resize the bracelet and took a quick & dirty side by side pic with its sibling just before the sun went down.





kpjimmy said:


> Looks great! Have to admit at first glance the new DR looked like a CW.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


That vintage DR looks awesome. Normally they haven't been my cup of tea but really like the color scheme. 

And I thought the same thing kp. Blue looks similar to cw Trident.


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## jessemeyer (Sep 29, 2020)

gavindavie said:


> Took the Upholder out for its first game of golf today. It gets to come back again as I scored well.
> View attachment 16514720


This is stating the obvious, I know, but what a perfect strap pairing. Looks phenomenal!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I almost have my two buddies who don't "like" the Devil Ray talked into buying one of the Watch Gecko releases. They've bought five NTHs between them due to my influence so I think I'll be successful. Probably means I'll get one eventually.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Forgot to post these yesterday
















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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I almost have my two buddies who don't "like" the Devil Ray talked into buying one of the Watch Gecko releases. They've bought five NTHs between them due to my influence so I think I'll be successful. Probably means I'll get one eventually.


Friends can be bad influences.

My buddy got my wife and I hooked on watching Ted Lasso. We're about halfway through season two. 

I was texting with him last night...


















Of course, I can't very well get the same jersey my best friend has, so I got Jamie Tartt's jersey instead. 

We agreed the next time we meet up for drinks, we'll wear our jerseys. We actually played soccer together back in high school, so it's kind of a throwback for us.

There's just one problem. Imagine seeing the two of us, from the back, sitting next to each other at the bar...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Spoiler: Ted Lasso, season 2...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Dammit I just started season 2!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

While having a mini frenzy looking at Scorpene's, I noticed this _amazing_ price.... There's a whole bunch. Even asks what size you want: S, M, L, XL, XXL, etc....










What do you reckon... A bargain 🤔

For the interested or just fool hardy, here's a link.






nth scorpene


nth scorpene




www.zhpays.ga


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

catsteeth said:


> While having a mini frenzy looking at Scorpene's, I noticed this _amazing_ price.... There's a whole bunch. Even asks what size you want: S, M, L, XL, XXL, etc....
> View attachment 16517314
> 
> 
> ...


The reviews say they're super soft and comfy too...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some days I swear I'm living in a half-a$$ed simulation...

Guy on Instagram sends us a DM, looking for help, even though the NTH profile on IG specifically says:









I wasn't being an anti-social d1ck when I typed that. We use email to track support requests - because it works. I can't forward a DM to my watchmaker, or attach a file to my reply, or flag a DM with a reminder for follow-up. We don't do support by DM, on any platform. Not here. Not Facebook. Not Instagram. Not Twitter.

Not that it stops anyone from trying to get support via DM. We still get at least a dozen DM's a month. We try to keep up, but it's not the best channel, which is why the card that comes with the watch says to use the support page on our website. So, if you sent us a DM, and didn't get a timely response, now you know why.

You want good support, right? That's why we have a support page on the website, with a contact form, and a customer support email. So we can provide good support. The support is AMAZING, if you just use the dedicated support channel.

Why not just send us a singing telegram, or a smoke signal, or try to reach us by short-wave radio? Do people still use carrier pigeons? I mean, whatever means of communication suits you, the company that sold you something ought to be equally receptive to any and all methods of contacting them, right? Put your message in a bottle, and float it to us. Why not?

For crying out loud, if you bought the watch new, you found it on a website. Why not start with the website if you need help?

So we reply to the guy, politely, asking him to direct his support request through the support page of the website.









He actually did email us (at 12:43am) two days later. We responded, at 8:30am, which I think is pretty good, considering it's before business hours. If you email us during business hours, odds are good you'll get a response within the day, if not within minutes.









Ever since, he's been DM'ing us, but with the most insane, off-the-wall stuff, like a link to some YT video about sex workers, and a video of some small furry creature doing 360's on someone's bed...

















I get it. "Microbrand". The owners of these small businesses are all online 24/7, with nothing better to do than to look at this stuff. 2am Wednesday. 4am Sunday. We never sleep, eat, go to the bathroom...

I'm not online 24/7. I'm definitely not offering real-time support at 1:46am. If you need a friend, do what I did, and get a dog.

I barely look at my phone when I'm not in the office. I have all alert notifications except for - wait for it - emails turned off. If you're not emailing us (and contact page submissions come via email), whatever it is you're sending, we'll see it when we see it.

My marketing team handles posts to our IG account. I might look at it once or twice a week, tops. I never look at Twitter. Literally, never. No one on my team looks at our Twitter feed or bothers to check for DM's there.

And I'm not personally on Facebook any more, so there's no way to reach me there, and we have DM's turned off on the biz page (driving some people to request support in comments on our posts, which rarely get a response beyond "please use the website support page"). The best part of being banned from FB is not getting DM's from people who think that's the best way to get support.

This can't be real. I have to be living in some sort of simulation. No way all these people are actual human beings. They must be bots acting out pre-programmed behaviors. My whole existence is inside a matrix with apparently very limited computing power...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

catsteeth said:


> While having a mini frenzy looking at Scorpene's, I noticed this _amazing_ price.... There's a whole bunch. Even asks what size you want: S, M, L, XL, XXL, etc....
> View attachment 16517314
> 
> 
> ...





TheBearded said:


> The reviews say they're super soft and comfy too...
> 
> View attachment 16517384


Just more evidence for the "living in a half-a$$ed simulation" theory. 

No other explanation seems plausible.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Dammit I just started season 2!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just more evidence for the "living in a half-a$$ed simulation" theory.
> 
> No other explanation seems plausible.


DOC IM SO GLAD YOU ARE OFFERING SIZES. I WANT AN NTH SIZE SMALL PLEASE.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

RotorRonin said:


> DOC IM SO GLAD YOU ARE OFFERING SIZES. I WANT AN NTH SIZE SMALL PLEASE.


"DM with preferred size."


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> "DM with preferred size."


Why should I have to even DM Chris?

I already posted here, he should email me directly! 

Even though he doesn't have my email address... but is it so unreasonable to expect him to track that down? I think not!


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

General watch collecting banter/enquiry here, I'm just curious how the rest of the watch collecting world operates

1, you've just taken receipt of a new watch on bracelet, how long before you take the bracelet off and try a bunch of straps from your collection?

2, again new watch arrives in your collection you immediately size it and it goes on wrist. How long before you take it off and start rotating through your collection?

Personally I love a strap change and will normally within a week of getting a watch try a bunch of different straps. As for the 2nd question, for me it's normally 2 to 4 weeks then I'm probably going to change it up.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Johnboy0103 said:


> 1, you've just taken receipt of a new watch on bracelet, how long before you take the bracelet off and try a bunch of straps from your collection?
> 
> 2, again new watch arrives in your collection you immediately size it and it goes on wrist. How long before you take it off and start rotating through your collection?


1. Hardly ever. Well, actually trying a "bunch" of straps, never. I haven't found any straps worth my while and certainly none that could supplant the bracelet. My watches stay on their bracelets if they came with one.

2. A couple days here, a couple days there. I grab any watch on a whim, whatever suits my fancy that day, that part of the day, that hour.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Johnboy0103 said:


> General watch collecting banter/enquiry here, I'm just curious how the rest of the watch collecting world operates
> 
> 1, you've just taken receipt of a new watch on bracelet, how long before you take the bracelet off and try a bunch of straps from your collection?
> 
> ...


1. Immediately size the bracelet. Then when I get home try it on a strap I have been envisioning. 
2. Never goes on the wrist unless it's a bracelet I've never tried. Usually takes a few hours to strap change. 

To preface, I have a number of straps and different strap types. My brain goes through a lot of them, usually the newer straps even before I buy a watch. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Johnboy0103 said:


> General watch collecting banter/enquiry here, I'm just curious how the rest of the watch collecting world operates
> 
> 1, you've just taken receipt of a new watch on bracelet, how long before you take the bracelet off and try a bunch of straps from your collection?
> 
> ...


1. Size the bracelet, love it, think maybe it would be better on this strap or other. Strap changes ensue. None satisfy. Back to the bracelet. For realz, I've even gone through this process with a stock Seiko 5 7s bracelet, of notorious poor quality. 

2. New watches are cool, and all, but usually it only takes a few days of continuous wear before I miss wearing one or six of my other watches.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I got my Upholder and it's great. The bezel insert without the full index marks works well. The dial has a texture I can't place - a basket weave, perhaps? I love the finish on the applied indices and hands. I sized the included oyster and then swapped for the BOR I purchased previously from John at WatchGauge and sized it.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Johnboy0103 said:


> 1, you've just taken receipt of a new watch on bracelet, how long before you take the bracelet off and try a bunch of straps from your collection?


Depends on the watch and what I bought it for. I usually know ahead of time how I want to wear a watch, and often have ordered a new watch and strap at the same time.

With my NTHs and my Atticus, it was probably months before I tried any off the bracelet, and they almost immediately went back on again. 

With my SARBs and Citizen NB1050-59a, they almost immediately went to leather straps, and almost never went back on the bracelets. 



Johnboy0103 said:


> 2, again new watch arrives in your collection you immediately size it and it goes on wrist. How long before you take it off and start rotating through your collection?


It goes into rotation immediately. I don't have a time-based rotation or anything, I just wear the watch that suits the occasion and my dress. If I'm headed camping, the new dress watch isn't coming with me. If I'm headed to the office, that new G-Shock is probably not getting worn until the weekend. When I got my first NTH Nacken Modern Black, or my Atticus Icarus, I think I wore them several weeks straight no matter what I was doing, because they are truly GADA watches. 

Happy #NTHursday!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> General watch collecting banter/enquiry here, I'm just curious how the rest of the watch collecting world operates
> 
> 1, you've just taken receipt of a new watch on bracelet, how long before you take the bracelet off and try a bunch of straps from your collection?
> 
> ...


1. Might be never. Could be a long time. I typically prefer bracelets to straps, so I don't have a lot of straps, and I generally don't enjoy doing strap/bracelet changes. 

2. Depends on what I'm wearing. Could be a day, or a week, but probably not more than that.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

I used to have all straps on my watches - now I'm back to bracelets and I almost always find the original, fitted end link bracelet looks best. 

I wear a new watch for a week after arrival (sometimes two if I'm really smitten) - then its back to the weekly rotation


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> #NTHursday
> 
> View attachment 16518837


Vail's finest work looking good.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> 1. Immediately size the bracelet. Then when I get home try it on a strap I have been envisioning.
> 2. Never goes on the wrist unless it's a bracelet I've never tried. Usually takes a few hours to strap change.
> 
> To preface, I have a number of straps and different strap types. My brain goes through a lot of them, usually the newer straps even before I buy a watch.
> ...


Case in point. The bracelet is cool, but I like this a bit more.









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The jig is up. The news is out. We're down to the last Renegade. He had it made, but can now be retrieved for a bounty...









Näcken - Renegade


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and snowflake hands.




nthwatches.com





Lyrics here, for whomever wants to sing along.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16519618
> 
> View attachment 16519617


When did @rpm1974 make you a one-off blue dialed Daedalus?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Pharos Phriday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Hey all
Just picked up an NTH BOR bracelet on ebay, should the endings come off if the springbar is removed or have I bought a hookey one? Not had one so just asking.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Hey all
> Just picked up an NTH BOR bracelet on ebay, should the endings come off if the springbar is removed or have I bought a hookey one? Not had one so just asking.
> 
> View attachment 16520754


No, that's correct. You have not been bamboozled.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Phew, thanks
Once I manage to escape the grindstone I'll put it on the Odin. TGIF


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Self-ejecting end-links are no extra charge...


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> Self-ejecting end-links are no extra charge...


Goes with self ejecting spring bars, lost count of how many I've lost


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Hey all
> Just picked up an NTH BOR bracelet on ebay, should the endings come off if the springbar is removed or have I bought a hookey one? Not had one so just asking.
> 
> View attachment 16520754


I was going to bid on that but forgot the deadline. You got it for a steal 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Goes with self ejecting spring bars, lost count of how many I've lost


Did I mention I don't enjoy changing straps / bracelets?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> Did I mention I don't enjoy changing straps / bracelets?
> View attachment 16521076


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

What's everyone's thoughts about the swatch moonwatch commoing out tomorrow? Ebay scalpers are in full swing


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Johnboy0103 said:


> What's everyone's thoughts about the swatch moonwatch commoing out tomorrow? Ebay scalpers are in full swing


Please no. 
Not in here. 
It's already everywhere else


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

OK, let's keep a lid in it


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> I was going to bid on that but forgot the deadline. You got it for a steal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah it was silly money, not had a BOR before and it was more out of curiosity. Still in the wrapping too so not a mark on it.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

A bit of low tech bracelet tinkering with a scotch pad


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> What's everyone's thoughts about the swatch moonwatch commoing out tomorrow? Ebay scalpers are in full swing


I'm only excited about the mission to Uranus.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Barracuda Vintage Black today.










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm only excited about the mission to Uranus.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


>


Just sayin'...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I got my Upholder and it's great. The bezel insert without the full index marks works well. The dial has a texture I can't place - a basket weave, perhaps?


Basket weave is what we've been calling it. Haven't heard a better description yet.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm curious to know what the records are for most NTH's owned, and most versions of any one model.

I own 12 NTHs, total, including 9 Subs.

Anyone own more than 12 NTH's total, or more than 9 of one model?

I know there's at least one guy out there with 8 or more DevilRays.

C'mon, now. Fess up. Who among you has enough NTH's to cover a nice vacation or starter car for a teenager?

Honorable mention for those who've had a large number pass through their collections, if not possessed them all at once. I don't mind hearing if you've had 12 come through your hands, but are down to one.

I won't like it. But I won't mind it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I'm curious to know what the records are for most NTH's owned, and most versions of any one model.
> 
> I own 12 NTHs, total, including 9 Subs.
> 
> ...


NTHs alone... A decent beater/starter. 3x subs, 1x 2K1, 1x Tropic
Watches combined?
Enough to put a good down payment on a house. Or if we wish to travel back in time to 2007, buy my truck again outright, and have enough left over for a good/great vacation depending on destination.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Respectable 5 should land me in the upper mid field maybe?. All subs. Kinda want to see a DR or Antilles in person before committing to buying one, their cases are quite different from my usual fare, but some versions have me very intrigued.

Still contemplating selling one off though, the other four I can't see myself parting with.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I understand your hesitation about the DR, @SchlachterSchmidt, maybe on false premises though - The DR seem to be to large for my puny wrist, but the Tropical case is a rather thin and sleek supercompressor-ish design, and feels slightly smaller but looks bigger than my 40mm x 13.5mm pro diver/sub pretender (for which I would happily buy a similar, used NTH product).
TL;DR: if you like the size of Näcken etc the Tropicals are not really different in their feel or bulkiness.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

I currently own 3 NTH Subs and the vanilla Azores. If you count DeeDee’s magenta Dolphin, I’m at 5 in the household. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve owned and sold. 

Edit: I can’t count. I own 4 subs:
Tikuna 
Barracuda Vintage
Oberon I
Bahia

-Rusty 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Four for me:

Devil Ray
Santa Fe
Thresher
Upholder


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

At one point, 4, but all Scorpènes. Now down to 3... still, all Scorpènes...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

I have owned 7, down to one. 

Black Nacken modern date
Blue Nacken modern date
Nazarrio Ghost
Amphion
Blue Nacken modern no date
Blue Nacken modern date
Barracuda v2

Currently own just the Nacken modern blue date v1 in a v2 case. 

If I weren't dedicated to streamlining, I'd still have the Narracuda and the Nacken black. Loved both.


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

Odin
Swiftsure
Devilray


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Depending on how you count, I have 5 or 8:

Amphion vintage blue 
Odin blue 
Santa Fe
Santa Cruz 
Barracuda blue 

L&H Orthos blue 
L&H Phantom black 
L&H Cerberus silver 

I have been tempted by others and have handled a few different models. Although nice, I did not get on with the tropics, 2K1 or Devilray cases. The Subs just work so well for me that it has spoilt a lot of other watches for me. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## fissiontofallout (Aug 3, 2018)

Just two for me, a silver Devilray and a teal Antilles


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Johnboy0103 said:


> General watch collecting banter/enquiry here, I'm just curious how the rest of the watch collecting world operates
> 
> 1, you've just taken receipt of a new watch on bracelet, how long before you take the bracelet off and try a bunch of straps from your collection?
> 
> ...


Straight away! I actually haven’t even worn my new DevilRay on the bracelet yet, I’m still experimenting…

A bit meh.


This is a Bremont Velcro by GGB.


I finally managed to fit the NTH rubber after giving up trying to get it on my other DevilRay.


A tatty old grey nato that I’ve had it on all week.


It’s staying on this for now.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)

Was 11. Recently sold 3 so now down to eight. All Subs, all the time.


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

In all, I've owned 7 but I'm down to 2 now.

Doc, the definitive answer to your question, and I know you would agree, is yankeexpress.
He hasn't been around lately. He does not disclose that sort of information. I know, because I asked him when I met him, but you have access to the sort of information that none of us has and you can confirm that for yourself in confidence from your sales data.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I have owned 7, down to one.
> 
> Black Nacken modern date
> Blue Nacken modern date
> ...


I don't know what a Narracuda is, but I want to see what it looks like.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Honorable mention for those who've had a large number pass through their collections, if not possessed them all at once. I don't mind hearing if you've had 12 come through your hands, but are down to one.


What if we've had 23 come through our hands, but are down to zero?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> In all, I've owned 7 but I'm down to 2 now.
> 
> Doc, the definitive answer to your question, and I know you would agree, is yankeexpress.
> He hasn't been around lately. He does not disclose that sort of information. I know, because I asked him when I met him, but you have access to the sort of information that none of us has and you can confirm that for yourself in confidence from your sales data.


Yankee is (or at least was at one time) up there, without a doubt. No way to know what he's sold, if anything. Also hard to know how many he's had, because he's bought a lot of them used, or from my retailers. He's only showing 9 orders in my system, but only 7 of those are for NTH watches (plus at least 2 L&H's). He must surely be over 12, I'd think.

@JohnnyBaldJunior must certainly be up there, too. He seems to buy everything and sell nothing, though also hasn't been seen in these parts much lately. I'm sure at one time I calculated he must have more than a dozen of my watches. My system shows 17 orders (some for parts and such).

Bill Jones (founder and professor emeritus, Bill Jones School of Photography) must also be up there, around 10 or so. System shows 18 orders.

When I sort customers by number of orders or total spent, it seems like the range of the "biggest fans" is 12-18 orders and $5k-$7k spent. There are about a half dozen guys who stand out in my system for being in that range, but I know there are more guys who've bought a bunch on the used market or bought from my retailers.

There are a handful of die-hards on Facebook, who don't seem to frequent the forums much, if at all. I'm sure I saw at least one guy who appeared to have (or want) every version of the DevilRay. I think that would be 13. If he doesn't have them all yet, he's well on his way.

I suppose I'm just curious about not only the buying habits, but also the collecting habits. Not that it changes anything for me if a guy buys a dozen and keeps one, versus buying a dozen and keeping them all.

I just wonder about the process. Are guys flipping because they're getting bored, in the never-ending search for "the one", or are they accumulating multiple versions of "the one" they seem to have found?

If you've owned 6 or more Subs and are down to one, it seems like the former. If you won't stop until you own all 13 colors of the DR, it seems like the latter.

For me personally, owning 9 Subs in a collection of 15 watches, the answer seems pretty clear. As much as I also love my 2 DR's and my Azores, the 40mm Subs are my bread-and-butter, both for my business and my personal collection.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> What if we've had 23 come through our hands, but are down to zero?


All good in the 'hood, I s'pose. Especially since I bought two or three of those that went through your hands.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I just wonder about the process. Are guys flipping because they're getting bored, in the never-ending search for "the one", or are they accumulating multiple versions of "the one" they seem to have found?
> 
> If you've owned 6 or more Subs and are down to one, it seems like the former.


For me, it's been a couple things:
1. I can't go anywhere and try one on. So I have to buy it to hold it. If it ends up being not exactly perfect, I sell it. That was the case with the Amphion. The first time I trial purchased the blue Nacken, I decided I didn't like the bezel color. Still don't. But when the Barracuda Polar bezel was available, it clicked. I bought the blue one again, this time a no-date, and swapped out the bezel.
2. The NTH Sub seems to be "the one" it's just a question of which one I prefer most. So there's the "try it in hand and sell the ones that aren't perfect" thing which was two. In my desire to reduce my collection, I eliminated duplicates, so that was two more down: I sold the Nacken black because I had the blue, and the Ghost mod was eliminated because Rusty's Icarus took the black dial sport watch slot. The other three of my purchases were related not to being bored, but improving on perfection. I had that blue Nacken no date and loved it, but decided I wanted a date. So I bought a date version instead. Then, when the v2 came out I decided I wanted the v2 bezel, so I bought the v2 Barracuda and case swapped.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Waxing philosophic, about business...

The first time I sought outside marketing help with my business was 2015. My friend and former co-worker, Pete, who was between marketing gigs, sat down with me to see what we could do to grow the business some more. 

We looked at all the sales data we had for the previous two years, and noticed what seemed to be very high repeat sales. We saw that ~20% of our sales were to repeat customers, and that on average, those customers made 3 purchases, while about 1/3 of those made 5 or more.

I compared those numbers with some other brand owners, who agreed that we were enjoying very strong brand loyalty. So, Pete and I started to look at ways to increase brand loyalty, as a way to encourage more existing customers to become repeat customers, and turn more of the 2- and 3-time purchasers into 4-or-more purchasers.

That strategy seems to make sense, at least on the surface, as far as it goes. Of course we appreciate repeat customers. Repeat sales increase the "average lifetime value" of a customer. And people who've worked in sales likely know it's generally easier to get an existing customer to buy again than it is to get a new customer to buy the first time. 

That said, in order for someone to become a repeat customer, they must be a customer in the first place. 

Guys like Yankee, who seem to have inexhaustible appetites, don't fall out of trees. They're few and far between. Even the most die-hard brand loyalists will fade away eventually. See Johnny Bald and Bill Jones (hard to do, since we don't see them much any more).

So, having spent the energy to build customer loyalty and repeat sales, we've since focused more on expanding brand awareness to find new customers. I look at each first-time sale to a new customer as being somewhat like the roll of the dice. 

The odds of rolling double-sixes (Boxcars!), and someone becoming the new Yankee seem about the same as rolling snake-eyes, and someone being the next loon to make me wish I'd taken up selling water heaters instead. 

Everyone else is somewhere in between, which is fine, inasmuch as the diversity tends to smooth out the ups-and-downs and make things a little more predictable.

So...if you have 2 or 12, I appreciate you all the same.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Waxing philosophic, about business...
> 
> The first time I sought outside marketing help with my business was 2015. My friend and former co-worker, Pete, who was between marketing gigs, sat down with me to see what we could do to grow the business some more.
> 
> ...


Right now I'm in the process of slowly moving my collection a bit more towards the higher price ranges. 

It started with the Tourby, which I pretty much doubled the cost of by upgrading it to their decorated top grade 6498. At the time, they still offered their base version, which clocked the price at about $1500USD, iirc. 

Then it was the PAM1085 I purchased a couple months ago. Next will in all odds be an Omega SMP. 

I can't say for certain when or if I'll be buying another NTH. I really liked both of the new sub variants, just not enough to pull the funds from the fun money account. I already pushed back the Omega purchase with the new AR I bought. Seekins Precision rifles ain't cheap.

I do know I'm patiently waiting to see the mysterious NTH non-diver, the model you're working on to commemorate your buddy, as well as future 2K1s.


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## joemamad (Oct 27, 2019)

Figure I’d post this here, DevilRay on vacation


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Sorry for the crappy pic: In order of purchase (not display): OG DevilRay, 2nd hand L&H Spectre, Bluerracuda, AVG. I know that doesn't win me any awards, but it at least qualifies me to talk smack at Doc and read DMJonez's crazy pilot stories.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Outside of the 4 (now 3) Scorpenes, there was a modded Sub (BSH Bromax MilSub) and an original Antilles White/Lume.

Considering I don't really have a passion for divers, I guess that says something. More about the fit - size, l2l, lug curve/drop - quality, and, no joke, the sudden availability of replacement bezels. Also, the design. Love the Big Number aviator style, and NTH is doing it most correct, IMO (see size/fit).

Hate to say it, but if the Atticus Deadalus had been around a few years ago, I might have steered clear of NTH entirely. But I do like a 12hr/timing bezel, so who knows.

I'm marginally interested in checking out a v2 Sub, but will probably wait for a used Nacken Modern Blue to show up.

If a Scorpene Vino Rosso v2 Sub, or even a flat red dial, appears on the scene, however, there's a good chance I'll be on a waitlist for that sucker.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Sorry for the crappy pic: In order of purchase (not display): OG DevilRay, 2nd hand L&H Spectre, Bluerracuda, AVG. I know that doesn't win me any awards, but it at least qualifies me to talk smack at Doc and read DMJones's crazy pilot stories.
> 
> View attachment 16523799


You get a photo. On the way home from Rome yesterday, over the Alps.










As to NTH, ran through a bunch of L&H, (kids have most still -Aciona, couple of Orthos, Phantom), And at least three subs, all 12 hour bezels.

Headed to Frankfurt tomorrow, wearing the Franken NTH. I'll try and get a photo.


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## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Current NTH collection 

3 Subs -
Tikuna w/date 
Nacken Blue 
Barracuda Brown 

2 2K1s
Swiftsure Blue 
Thresher DLC no date 

1 Devilray 
Blue v2 

Contemplating a special edition Devilray from Watch Gecko, but would need to order extra links. I got lucky that John at Watch Gauge sent me a couple links when I got the Devilray. Also looking at the Azores Blue Curacao.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Two only -

Santa Cruz 
Tikuna 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Current holdings (all no date):
Black DLC Full Lume Scorpene
Barracuda Brown
Amphion Vintage Black
Nacken Modern Blue
Dolphin Silver
Nazario Suaro
Devil Ray v2 Black/Gray

Others that have passed through:
Nacken White (twice)
Nacken Renegade
Nazario Ghost
Nazario Azzurro
Azores V1 Vanilla

Also had a red L&H Orthos for a good long while.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Hard at work


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

mconlonx said:


> Outside of the 4 (now 3) Scorpenes, there was a modded Sub (BSH Bromax MilSub) and an original Antilles White/Lume.
> 
> Considering I don't really have a passion for divers, I guess that says something. More about the fit - size, l2l, lug curve/drop - quality, and, no joke, the sudden availability of replacement bezels. Also, the design. Love the Big Number aviator style, and NTH is doing it most correct, IMO (see size/fit).
> 
> ...


Absolutely love the Scorpene with the field bezel.


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## scottlg (May 7, 2015)

Has anyone had issues with power reserve? I have a NTH Odin. The watch had stopped so I put it on and walked for about 40 minutes. It only ran for about 5.5 hours afterwards. Is is working as expected?


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

scottlg said:


> Has anyone had issues with power reserve? I have a NTH Odin. The watch had stopped so I put it on and walked for about 40 minutes. It only ran for about 5.5 hours afterwards. Is is working as expected?


40 minutes of walking isn't nearly enough time to get a full wind. Hand-wind it for about 20 turns and it'll be fine.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

scottlg said:


> Has anyone had issues with power reserve? I have a NTH Odin. The watch had stopped so I put it on and walked for about 40 minutes. It only ran for about 5.5 hours afterwards. Is is working as expected?


Hand-winding the Miyota movement from no power to full power requires 40 complete turns of the crown. Auto-winding requires over 1000 complete rotations of the rotor. My rough math suggests 3,000 steps ought to do it.

Only anecdotally - I had an Orient with a PR meter. Getting from no power to full-power took at least five minutes of shaking it back and forth, non-stop. 

Please don't ask me to convert constant back-and-forth-shaking to swings of your arm whilst walking.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

scottlg said:


> Has anyone had issues with power reserve? I have a NTH Odin. The watch had stopped so I put it on and walked for about 40 minutes. It only ran for about 5.5 hours afterwards. Is is working as expected?





docvail said:


> Hand-winding the Miyota movement from no power to full power requires 40 complete turns of the crown. Auto-winding requires over 1000 complete rotations of the rotor. My rough math suggests 3,000 steps ought to do it.
> 
> Only anecdotally - I had an Orient with a PR meter. Getting from no power to full-power took at least five minutes of shaking it back and forth, non-stop.
> 
> Please don't ask me to convert constant back-and-forth-shaking to swings of your arm whilst walking.


The above said, testing power reserve is easy enough...

Give the crown 40 complete turns, then set it down, dial up, and see how long it lasts.

Repeat the process in dial-down, crown-up, crown-down, 12-up, and 12-down positions. If there's a positional issue, that should reveal it.

To see if there's a problem with the auto-winding, wait until it runs down to a stop, then shake it back and forth (like you're about to throw a frisbee) for five minutes, then see how long it runs.

To test further - give the crown 40 full turns, then put it on and wear it. If there's some very rare phenomenon in which it only stops on the wrist, that should reveal it. 

When you take it off, after a day of wear, set it down, and see how long it runs.

Assuming you didn't notice any failure of PR in the hand-wind / set-it-down tests, nor in the auto-winding test, how long it runs after a day of wearing it should give you some indication about whether or not you're moving around enough to keep the watch near full-wind.

Odds are, you're not. Few are.

Hand-winding is good for keeping the power topped up, and doesn't hurt the Japanese movements. I always give the crown a good 20 turns before putting a watch on, because I know I won't be wearing it long enough or moving around enough to keep it running very long, much less keep good time while it is running (since low power will lead to less accuracy).


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Please don't ask me to convert constant back-and-forth-shaking to swings of your arm whilst walking.


But if you had to guess...?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> But if you had to guess...?


1 min shaking = 30 minutes walking?

1 min shaken = 30 minutes Walken.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Assuming you didn't notice any failure of PR in the hand-wind / set-it-down tests, nor in the auto-winding test, how long it runs after a day of wearing it should give you some indication about whether or not you're moving around enough to keep the watch near full-wind.
> 
> Odds are, you're not. Few are.
> 
> Hand-winding is good for keeping the power topped up, and doesn't hurt the Japanese movements. I always give the crown a good 20 turns before putting a watch on, because I know I won't be wearing it long enough or moving around enough to keep it running very long, much less keep good time while it is running (since low power will lead to less accuracy).


I have quite a variety of movements over all my watches and interestingly the one most affected by insufficient movement and low power supply is the Vostok. Pretty much all the Japanese and Swiss movements will continue to function normally with the only noticeable difference when reaching low power reserve is either losing or gaining a couple of minutes (And that could actually be attributed to the inherent +-error accuracy all movements have anyway). The Vostok will suddenly drop hours when getting low, so I am mindful to give it a short wind every few days if active and more often if inert (which, if you're familiar with the Vostok movement is a complete PITA!).
My two Nth's run really well with Chris's recommended 40 wind kick start.

Not sure how others find differences between movements when getting low. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

You've gotta have the correct wrist wear to wash the car


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Hand-winding the Miyota movement from no power to full power requires 40 complete turns of the crown.


And just to be as clear as possible: does "complete turn" mean a 360-degree rotation of the crown?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> And just to be as clear as possible: does "complete turn" mean a 360-degree rotation of the crown?


Correct.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Avo said:


> And just to be as clear as possible: does "complete turn" mean a 360-degree rotation of the crown?


Yes, but you must also spin around a full 360 after every turn of the crown to maximise the tensioning of the mainspring by the rotor. This is actually the most important part that Chris didn't clarify....

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Red PeeKay said:


> Yes, but you must also spin around a full 360 after every turn of the crown to maximise the tensioning of the mainspring by the rotor. This is actually the most important part that Chris didn't clarify....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I always thought you were supposed to spin _while_ you turned the crown?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> I always thought you were supposed to spin _while_ you turned the crown?


Hmm, yes Bearded... there is some conjecture in the horological world around the "during or after" the winding process supposition. It is commonly agreed that one must spin a minimum of 360 degrees at some point either during or immediately after every crown rotation in order to impart maximum torque to the rotor or bumper. This ensures the mainspring is wound "tighter than a crab's ass, and that is air tight".

The horological world is pretty much evenly divided along the flat earth "Swiss is best" proponents vs those who propose we are all descended from an ancient alien lizard race where quartz and 38mm are divine ordination. 

I guess it depends on which camp you rest in Bearded

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hmm, yes Bearded... there is some conjecture in the horological world around the "during or after" the winding process supposition. It is commonly agreed that one must spin a minimum of 360 degrees at some point either during or immediately after every crown rotation in order to impart maximum torque to the rotor or bumper. This ensures the mainspring is wound "tighter than a crab's ass, and that is air tight".
> 
> The horological world is pretty much evenly divided along the flat earth "Swiss is best" proponents vs those who process we are all descended from an ancient alien lizard race where quartz and 38mm are divine ordination.
> 
> ...


This explains why I keep falling down when I wear a 7S26…


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

You spin the crown 360
And you turn yourself around
That's what it's all about


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Another Todaro Tuesday happening here









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I follow Omega's advice which I think is good general instruction which I paraphrase here: When the watch has been sitting for a period greater than the movement's rated power reserve, wind the watch using the crown, set the time/date as necessary, and wear. "Wind" the watch means fully wind. While this varies among movements, I've found 30 to 40 complete revolutions of the crown to be entirely sufficient.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

gavindavie said:


> You've gotta have the correct wrist wear to wash the car
> View attachment 16528981


Good grief man no! 😱
That’s what a plastic G-Shock is for, it’ll stop you scratching the paintwork with your bracelet and more importantly you might get your dive watch wet!!!


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## scottlg (May 7, 2015)

I tried another power reserve test yesterday by jogging for about 20 minutes. The watch wasn't running when I started but it's still going over 30 hours later without any additional winding/movement.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

None of these are my listings. 

Some interesting stuff on eBay...

"New / unworn" Skipjack, no-date, on BOR - NEW / UNWORN - NTH Skipjack / No Date 300m Diver Watch - Beads of Rice Bracelet | eBay

This next one is a bit weird - the v.1 bracelet suggests it's a v.1 DevilRay, with STP1-11 inside, but the listing says "Seiko NH38". Seller's listing says it's from his uncle's collection, so he may have just pulled that info off the current DR product pages on our site. Case looks a little rough, definitely not "excellent condition", but hard to argue with the current bid of $260 on a watch that sold for $700 four years ago.









NTH Orange Devil Ray Automatic Watch! NH38 Movement! Nice!! With Box & Papers! | eBay


NTH Orange Devil Ray.



www.ebay.com





Brand new in box (still wrapped) Watch Gecko DR, brown - NTH Devil Ray Vintage Orange Brown Sunburst 500m WR 42mm Diver Automatic Watch | eBay

Azores, blue, with date, "brand new/unworn" - Brand New NTH Azores Blue Curaçao Watch w/ Date Complication & Miyota Auto | eBay


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Community heads-up...

Got an email from PayPal this AM, alerting me to new merchant fees going into effect 1 May.









Fees | Merchant and Business | PayPal US


Get detailed information about PayPal's merchant fees. See our competitive rates for domestic and international selling.




www.paypal.com





On top of the already unusually high inflation we're seeing, I wonder if it will lead merchants to further increasing their prices, or trying to find a way to tack on additional transaction fees, based on payment method.

PayPal is currently charging me ~2.9% + $0.30 per transaction, which isn't terrible, considering I'm paying just a little less for credit card processing - 2.6% + $0.30 per transaction.

The new rates are going up, a lot - 3.49% + $0.49. For international transactions, there will be an additional 1.5% tacked on.

It may not seem like a lot, but it's on everything - the cost of goods (plus sales taxes, when applicable), plus the cost of shipping, which has been going up rapidly. My site pulls shipping rates in from our warehouse, so if you pay $10, I pay $10, but I'll only be getting $9.65. PA sales tax on a $700 watch would be $42, which I'll have to pay, even if I only get $40.53.

I know it doesn't seem like a lot, but it is. Take a business that has 1000 sales per year, of $500 each, including shipping. They'll pay $4,640 more in fees on $500,000 in sales, by going from $13,300 to $17,940. It's about a 35% increase on that one expense item (34.89%, to be precise).

Start adding in the net difference with sales taxes and shipping costs, between what we collect at checkout, versus what we receive after fees, versus what we have to pay, and it all adds up. Easily over 35%, and might be pushing 40% increase.

Imagine running a business, and seeing 25%-40% cost increases from your vendors. That's what we're seeing, across the board. My WUS sponsorship went up by 25% recently.

The lower the price of what the biz is selling, the worse it is, because of the fixed-rate fees (the $0.49). That $0.49 is 0.1% of an item that costs $490. It's 1% on a $49 item, and 10% on a $4.90 item.

Oh, and speaking of shipping rates, I also got this today. Probably won't impact my business, based on the size of our packages, but will likely affect A LOT of ecommerce companies...


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

@docvail Don't forget to mention that PayPal keeps those fees in the event of a return. Good times...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> @docvail Don't forget to mention that PayPal keeps those fees in the event of a return. Good times...


I didn't forget. 

It was intentionally omitted.

But, yes, PayPal and the credit card processors keep their fees, even when we refund an order. 

I was recently speaking with a guy who sells air-purification stuff. Just talking shop, comparing notes, commiserating. I was explaining that we're seeing cost increases on everything, across the board, but we can't just increase our prices. I was giving him examples, where we're paying 70% more for something, but only charging 40% more, or whatever.

I wasn't even finished making my point, when he finished it for me, "And when you raise prices, your sales volume goes down, so you're not only making less gross profit on each sale, you're netting less, after expenses!"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here still own a Riccardo?

It's a seller's market...









RARE New Lew & Huey Riccardo Chrono Black Automatic 42mm Men's Watch 45/100 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for RARE New Lew & Huey Riccardo Chrono Black Automatic 42mm Men's Watch 45/100 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Ugh. Those surcharges will hurt our retailers. We'll pass the fee on to them but dadgum. That adds somewhere between 25-75% to the shipping cost for some of our folks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rare enough to see any Commander 300 up for sale. Consider seeing two, both blue no-dates, up for sale at the same time, to be one of the signs of the impending apocalypse...









Lew & Huey Commander 300, Automatic Watch, Blue Dial | eBay


Only 250 made in each color.



www.ebay.com













Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300 Watch | eBay


<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300 Watch. This will fit a 7.5" wrist</p>



www.ebay.com





I don't remember how many blue no-dates we made, but I'm pretty sure it was fewer than 25.


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHursday!


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Anyone here still own a Riccardo?
> 
> It's a seller's market...
> 
> ...


Perhaps the market is telling you that it's time to make another chronograph, Doc. Just throwing it out there, between you, me, and 49 of my closest friends.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Perhaps the market is telling you that it's time to make another chronograph, Doc. Just throwing it out there, between you, me, and 49 of my closest friends.


You'd need 299, since it would be a new case.

No way I'd use the ST19 again. Doubt I'd do quartz or meca-quartz. Probably use the Seiko NE88/86.

Do you think the world is ready for a $1200 NTH chrono? Feels like a big ask to me.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...Probably use the Seiko NE88/86.
> 
> Do you think the world is ready for a $1200 NTH chrono? Feels like a big ask to me.


I don't think the ask is as big as all that, but I also think it would be a tough ask to turn inventory over in 90 days on a model like that. 

Is anyone else in the microbrand sphere doing a NE88/86 model? Where are they priced at?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This little beauty has been on my wrist for five days straight. That is a lot for me, usually I change every 2-3 days. There is just so much to love with this watch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> You'd need 299, since it would be a new case.
> 
> No way I'd use the ST19 again. Doubt I'd do quartz or meca-quartz. Probably use the Seiko NE88/86.
> 
> Do you think the world is ready for a $1200 NTH chrono? Feels like a big ask to me.


I can't speak for the world, but I'd be down. I've been in a chrono-ish mood the last few months. Recently came within a breath of pulling the trigger on a Zelos Starfighter. And I feel like the options for chrono movements accessible to microbrands have expanded lately, maybe changing the cost equation. But I'm sure you could speak to that more readily than me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I don't think the ask is as big as all that, but I also think it would be a tough ask to turn inventory over in 90 days on a model like that.
> 
> Is anyone else in the microbrand sphere doing a NE88/86 model? Where are they priced at?


Some micros are.

Those who are underpricing them are selling them for under $1k.

Soldat is selling one for $1350. Crafter Blue launched the Hyperion at $1300, but has since dropped it to $1100. Hemel's HFT20 was $999.99. I vaguely recall Straton's NE88 chronos were somewhere in that $1k-$1.2k range. Most micros selling auto-chronos with any Swiss movement are typically going to be >$1200.

It's not just the inventory turnover which would concern me, though that is a factor. It's also financing the production costs (since we no longer do pre-orders), and post-sale support.

Our wholesale cost on the movements would likely put them right at the point where we'd struggle to figure out the "repair or replace" question. I'm also not sure how confident I'd feel extending our six-year movement guarantee to those movements.

Not that I think they're unreliable, per se. It's just that if an NH35 or 9015 breaks within 6 years, which is rare, we can easily afford to just drop a new one in. If the NE88 requires servicing within that time, or fails at a higher-than-expected rate, it destroys my ability to price the model correctly, by driving up our post-sale support costs.

Consider what happened with the Riccardo. We probably had a 50% return for repair rate on those. Looking back later, I figured I would have to price that watch around $750 (it was originally $550, almost 10 years ago, and $450 in pre-order), in order to rationalize making it.

As a single data point, Baltic has the ST19 bicompax selling in pre-order for ~$715 (648 Euro, though the site is confusing with regards to whether or not that price includes or excludes VAT for those of us in the US).

Few people are willing to pay $750 for an ST19-based chrono (maybe more are, now, but not ten years ago), and there again, I wouldn't feel confident offering a 6 year guarantee. That doesn't even get into the cursing and gnashing of teeth when people find out there's nary a watchmaker in the world who'll agree to work on one, post-warranty.

I have no way of knowing what our post-sale support rate would be on the NE88. I assume it would be less than with the ST19, but without a very reliable estimate, I don't know how to price the product.

I'm also not sure if independent watchmakers would want to work on one, post-warranty. Assuming one is, what would they charge for a service? If the going rate for a 3-hand 2824-2 is $300-$350, I imagine it would be $500 or more to service the chrono. What's the likelihood that someone is going to pay that, and when, on a $1200 watch?

What I see among other micros is that they'll typically use the same case to make an NE88 auto-chrono and a meca-qaurtz chrono, priced lower. If they make 300 pieces, it'll be 200 meca, 100 auto, or something like that.

But what I don't see much is those brands repeating the production of the autos, over and over again. To me that's an indicator that they didn't like their results, for whatever reasons.

Is it slow sales due to the high price? Is it poor post-sale performance? Don't know. Don't much care. Doesn't really matter, if I don't plan to pursue the idea.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> I can't speak for the world, but I'd be down. I've been in a chrono-ish mood the last few months. Recently came within a breath of pulling the trigger on a Zelos Starfighter. And I feel like the options for chrono movements accessible to microbrands have expanded lately, maybe changing the cost equation. But I'm sure you could speak to that more readily than me.


I don't think the cost equation has changed nearly enough. Per my post above, it's not just a matter of production costs versus retail pricing.

If the chrono movements cost 1/3 less than they do, I'd be more enthused. That would change the calculus considerably.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just occurred to me.

As a thought experiment, what sort of purchase-price-to-maintenance-cost ratio would a watch need to have in order to justify having one serviced, routinely (5-7 years, as recommended), versus just ignoring maintenance?

If a basic service is around $300, how much would the watch have to sell for, new, for you to feel like it's worth investing in that periodic maintenance? Consider also any assumptions about the "pain in the a$$" factor involved in servicing.

$900 (3:1)?

$1200 (4:1)?

$1500 (5:1)?

I feel like there's a disconnect here, among collectors.

Above, say, $600 retail price, there's a noticeable increase in people saying, "it really ought to have a Swiss movement." The number and intensity of people saying that seems to increase as the price goes up.

And yet, it's hard for me to believe people are paying $300 to service their $600 watch every 5-7 years. Especially if they know the movement could likely be replaced for about the same cost, I imagine they'd postpone maintenance until it couldn't be ignored any more.

Even a $900 watch, I feel like it's a marginal decision for most people. I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of $1200-$1500 watches well past their maintenance interval, but which have never been within a country mile of a watchmaker's bench.

I was in my local independent's shop earlier this week. A guy was just about to leave, after getting his Breitling with v.7750 movement serviced, for the first time, after owning it at least 10-15 years, he said. I'm just guessing he paid at least $3k for it, whenever he got it.

I walked in just in time to catch the tail-end of the convo. I gathered that the gentlemen was none too pleased to be informed of what his watch would cost him in ongoing maintenance, if he wanted to keep it running well.

But people still don't seem to be able to wrap their heads around a watch with a 9015 or similar costing over $800.

Maybe that's why so many people view the ~$1k to ~$2k price range as a "no man's land". Too much cheddar for a Japanese work-horse movement, not enough to rationalize the ongoing maintenance costs of a Swiss movement.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> This just occurred to me.
> 
> As a thought experiment, what sort of purchase-price-to-maintenance-cost ratio would a watch need to have in order to justify having one serviced, routinely (5-7 years, as recommended), versus just ignoring maintenance?
> 
> ...


Anything over $1k, I'm having someone else work on it. Anything less, I'll give movement replacement a shot, on my own. 

It's like vehicles - I have a 09 BMW R1200RT, which is my workhorse bike, and I bring it to the shop for service. Also, an '88 Honda NT650 Hawk GT, for fun, which I work on, myself. 

I was recently gifted a Tudor BB36 by my ever-loving, ever-tolerant mrs-ish - that will go in for maintenance service year 7, unless something happens where it needs service before that. If I picked up a San Martin BB36 copy-design with SW200 movement, I'd take a stab at servicing that one, myself, and if (meaning: when) I botch the service, replace the movement with a whole new one.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Lew and Huey auto chronograph.


Mechaquartz Phantom… 




Hmmmm…


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Screw a chrono.
Tooless micro adjust clasp. I'll buy 5 right now if they fit the stock bracelet.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Screw a chrono.
> Tooless micro adjust clasp. I'll buy 5 right now if they fit the stock bracelet.


$75 each and they're yours.









20mm Ratcheting Expansion Clasp


This is the generation 1 ratcheting expansion clasp for the NTH DevilRay. Please note this item is not returnable.




nthwatches.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Anything over $1k, I'm having someone else work on it. Anything less, I'll give movement replacement a shot, on my own.
> 
> It's like vehicles - I have a 09 BMW R1200RT, which is my workhorse bike, and I bring it to the shop for service. Also, an '88 Honda NT650 Hawk GT, for fun, which I work on, myself.
> 
> I was recently gifted a Tudor BB36 by my ever-loving, ever-tolerant mrs-ish - that will go in for maintenance service year 7, unless something happens where it needs service before that. If I picked up a San Martin BB36 copy-design with SW200 movement, I'd take a stab at servicing that one, myself, and if (meaning: when) I botch the service, replace the movement with a whole new one.


As usual, I like making you think, without wanting it to feel like an "argument", as you seem to have the required patience to entertain the discussion. So...

Why over $1k? At that price, my hunch would be that the movement could be replaced (by you, as I know you can do that) for less than it would cost to service. Why not let it run until it dies, then just buy a new SW200 (or whatever) and drop it in yourself, rather than paying $300 to have it serviced?

Imagine if you didn't have the confidence to do a movement swap yourself, and it was going to be $300 any way you cut it. How long would you delay maintenance? Would you pay $300 to have a $1k watch serviced every 5-7 years? 

I mean, we're speaking hypothetically, obviously, but practically, I suspect many / most would NOT do that, and would delay as long as possible.

Turning to your San Martin example - what would a San Martin with SW200 cost? Is there such an animal? If so, I'm guessing it's less than $600 retail. 

For someone who isn't you, without the confidence or motivation to attempt a service, does it make sense to spend $300 on servicing? Doubtful. Does it even make sense to buy a SW200 for $200, to drop in yourself, ever, if the watch only cost $600 in the first place? 

I would think most people would just let it run until it dies, then have an inner debate on chucking the watch versus putting a new movement in, considering a 10+ year old San Martin probably wouldn't be worth much more than the $200 it would cost to replace the movement.

That, to me, is the non-sensical part of the equation. If you're going to spend $500-$1,000 on a new watch, or maybe even more, do you not think about the long-term maintenance costs, the service interval, and the likely residual value?

Imagine being told your brand new $500k house would require $100k (or $250k) in maintenance, more often than once a decade. More analogous to watches, imagine being told your brand new $50k car would require $10k-$25k in maintenance, with the same sort of frequency. 

I'd think we'd all balk at that, especially with the cars, considering they depreciate in value (like most watches). The cost of the maintenance would exceed the value of the car before it was serviced a second time.

The reality is that a $500k house might need a $25k roof every 25-30 years. It's 5% of the home's value, once a generation. Most routine maintenance isn't likely to cost much more than 10% of the average new car's price within the first decade. The maintenance of a house or a car is a "necessary evil", to protect the value of the original investment, and ensure continued usability, and only acceptable because the cost of the maintenance is a small fraction of the initial investment.

And yet, within the watch world, we have people who are either:

A - completely ignorant / oblivious to the long-term ownership costs when they buy a new watch (which describes many non-enthusiasts, like the guy with that Breitling).

B - totally accepting of economics they'd never accept with homes or cars (like the people insisting a $600 or $800 watch ought to have a movement that will require $200-$300 in maintenance every 5-7 years).

C - living in denial (same as the people above, except they're being intellectually dishonest about it).

The only economics which make sense to me are those which result from using low-cost / no-maintenance movements in lower-priced watches. I can't see how it makes sense to consider a movement requiring $200-$300 in maintenance every 5-7 years until the watch costs $2k-$3k.

I get why it may be hard for people to wrap their heads around the movement vs price when that price gets closer to $1k than $500. Because people look at what it costs to buy an NH35 or 9015 online, and can't see past that number as being the only one that matters when considering the price of the watch. 

But I think people who insist on having a more expensive Swiss movement in a watch within that price range are seriously under-appreciating the value of having a Japanese movement which will require no maintenance, for decades to come.

I really don't understand the new fascination with Chinese clones of Swiss movements. Inferior copies of inferior movements? Why would you even?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Why over $1k? At that price, my hunch would be that the movement could be replaced (by you, as I know you can do that) for less than it would cost to service. Why not let it run until it dies, then just buy a new SW200 (or whatever) and drop it in yourself, rather than paying $300 to have it serviced?


Because I lack the hubris and confidence to think I can not screw up a $1k+ watch. For all the hack modding I do, I still biff hand installation, sometimes scratch dials or casebacks, leave dust inside the case, don't quite line up the hour and minute hands so that they match up on the hour... etc. I'm OK if a cheaper watch goes south, but not a more expensive watch. Leave it to the pros. 



docvail said:


> Imagine if you didn't have the confidence to do a movement swap yourself, and it was going to be $300 any way you cut it. How long would you delay maintenance? Would you pay $300 to have a $1k watch serviced every 5-7 years?


Nope. Would do like I plan to do with cheaper watches - run them into the ground and then assess repair or disposal.



docvail said:


> I mean, we're speaking hypothetically, obviously, but practically, I suspect many / most would NOT do that, and would delay as long as possible.
> 
> Turning to your San Martin example - what would a San Martin with SW200 cost? Is there such an animal? If so, I'm guessing it's less than $600 retail.
> 
> ...


You can pick up something like the San Martin "Explorer" for $430 with SW200 movement, or the same for about $300 with PT500 movement. Which makes it pretty extreme - outside Jomashop sales deals - regarding movement maintain/repair/replace. I mean, I've seen swiss movements in brand name watches going for less than $300 on JShop, at which point, a service will be more than you might have paid for the watch in the first place. 

That will really put things in perspective. Are you going to maintain? Only if the watch means something to you, and even then, probably more like wear it 'till it dies and then contemplate movement repair/replace.

FWIW, I inherited a watch from my Grampa, a gold Longines hand-wind, and currently have more into it over two different repair/service stints than I could buy one on ebay. So sentimentality means something. Same reason I'd drop off the Tudor BB36 for service, rather than attempting myself - gift from a loved one makes it worth more to me than sheer commodity value.



docvail said:


> That, to me, is the non-sensical part of the equation. If you're going to spend $500-$1,000 on a new watch, or maybe even more, do you not think about the long-term maintenance costs, the service interval, and the likely residual value?
> 
> Imagine being told your brand new $500k house would require $100k (or $250k) in maintenance, more often than once a decade. More analogous to watches, imagine being told your brand new $50k car would require $10k-$25k in maintenance, with the same sort of frequency.


I think most consumers don't know what the maintenance cost will be, and most retailers won't mention it, unless asked. Perfect situation - you don't know enough to ask, and you're not told = Breitling-guy situation, "It will cost WHAT?!? to repair???"



docvail said:


> I'd think we'd all balk at that,...


Except we don't, neither ignorant consumers, or supposed WIS, in the know...



docvail said:


> A - completely ignorant / oblivious to the long-term ownership costs when they buy a new watch (which describes many non-enthusiasts, like the guy with that Breitling).
> 
> B - totally accepting of economics they'd never accept with homes or cars (like the people insisting a $600 or $800 watch ought to have a movement that will require $200-$300 in maintenance every 5-7 years).
> 
> C - living in denial (same as the people above, except they're being intellectually dishonest about it).


Pretty much. Further breakdown:

D. Living in denial, but claiming they are maintaining their watch while not doing so.

E. Living in denial, knowing at a certain point that their watch will die and they'll make a decision then.

F. Fully appraised on the situation and doesn't give AF; will wear it until it dies and move on with life.

[/QUOTE]
The only economics which make sense to me are those which result from using low-cost / no-maintenance movements in lower-priced watches. I can't see how it makes sense to consider a movement requiring $200-$300 in maintenance every 5-7 years until the watch costs $2k-$3k.

I get why it may be hard for people to wrap their heads around the movement vs price when that price gets closer to $1k than $500. Because people look at what it costs to buy an NH35 or 9015 online, and can't see past that number as being the only one that matters when considering the price of the watch.

But I think people who insist on having a more expensive Swiss movement in a watch within that price range are seriously under-appreciating the value of having a Japanese movement which will require no maintenance, for decades to come.

I really don't understand the new fascination with Chinese clones of Swiss movements. Inferior copies of inferior movements? Why would you even?
[/QUOTE]

Lower price, everlasting movements in lower price watches. Higher priced movements requiring more maintenance in higher priced watches make sense only in intangible ways: bragging rights, showing off (Not only did my watch cost more, but I have the money to maintain it correct, too, you peasant), I believe there are arguments to be made about better accuracy (not by me...), etc. 

I'm super happy to keep playing in the shallow end of the pool, with cheaper watches, cheaper movements, and little maintenance to consider. But people still gonna buy up...

Getting back to the question about cheaper Chinese movements, though - if my San Martin SW200 crapped out, or 8-10 years down the road needed service for which I was unwilling to pay, I might just consider dropping in a $70 PT5000 movement, instead of the replacment $200 SW200... Or, like you say, maybe I recognize the silliness involved in buying a cheap watch with an expensive movement, and just get the PT5000 version of the same watch, to begin with - save money up front; save money down the road. What's not to like...?


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

I'm definitely on the side of running the movement into the ground and just buying a replacement, the movement would have to cost a whole lot more than the price of a service for me to consider it.


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

Actually, I thought of another alternative which is to just sidestep the issue entirely by selling your watch after 5-7 years and let the next poor chump worry about it.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> $75 each and they're yours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Touche. 
I have one of those, btw. It's 2mm too wide for the subs bracelets though 

I know you know I said stock bracelet. 
Do it. Tooless micro adjust. Take NTH into Monta/Formex territory.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Touche.
> I have one of those, btw. It's 2mm too wide for the subs bracelets though
> 
> I know you know I said stock bracelet.
> Do it. Tooless micro adjust. Take NTH into Monta/Formex territory.


Would you buy them if they were 18mm, and fit the subs?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Would you buy them if they were 18mm, and fit the subs?


In all odds, yeah. 









But mostly, I'm trying to piss you off and get a rise out of you. 

GO FANCY TOOLESS MICRO ADJUST! APPEASE THE MINORITY! 

Just think... you could make 500, or whatever your MOQ is, sell like 50 or so in a matter of days, then sit on the rest for months and months and regret it all, cursing my name.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> In all odds, yeah.
> View attachment 16539535
> 
> 
> ...


Do this.

That way I get one and I get to read a rant in 6 months when people say they want them.....at no extra charge. It's a win-win really


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Do this.
> 
> That way I get one and I get to read a rant in 6 months when people say they want them.....at no extra charge. It's a win-win really


See that's the rub with me though. I'm willing to pay that premium. I for one am ready for the $1200 NTH.

Well. As long as I like the overall look enough. Doc doesn't even have to upgrade the movement, imho.

Edit: I guess if it's just a clasp upgrade, it'd probably be like a $900ish NTH. 

What do I know, though?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> See that's the rub with me though. I'm willing to pay that premium. I for one am ready for the $1200 NTH.
> 
> Well. As long as I like the overall look enough. Doc doesn't even have to upgrade the movement, imho.
> 
> ...











18mm 316L Stainless Steel Wetsuit Ratchet Buckle Button Control diver extension clasp, Brushed


Ratchet Buckle Clasp is an ideall Wetsuit watch band buckle. The ratchet theory extension mechanism is of great importance for both convenience and safety. Item no. : CLASP18-017B Buckle size : 18mm, 20mm or 22mm (Strap Buckle size) Buckle type : 316L Stainless Steel Clasp with Ratchet Theory...




www.strapcode.com






Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> 18mm 316L Stainless Steel Wetsuit Ratchet Buckle Button Control diver extension clasp, Brushed
> 
> 
> Ratchet Buckle Clasp is an ideall Wetsuit watch band buckle. The ratchet theory extension mechanism is of great importance for both convenience and safety. Item no. : CLASP18-017B Buckle size : 18mm, 20mm or 22mm (Strap Buckle size) Buckle type : 316L Stainless Steel Clasp with Ratchet Theory...
> ...


One. 
Don't tell Doc. 









Two. 
I'm all about that branded sh*t. That doesn't say NTH on it.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> One.
> Don't tell Doc.
> View attachment 16539599
> 
> ...













I’m helping.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> I’m helping.
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Literally made me laugh out loud. 
Bravo, good sir.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> See that's the rub with me though. I'm willing to pay that premium. I for one am ready for the $1200 NTH.
> 
> Well. As long as I like the overall look enough. Doc doesn't even have to upgrade the movement, imho.
> 
> ...



I'm ready for doc's foray into the over $1k watch market.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> I'm ready for doc's foray into the over $1k watch market.


I wonder what price range that secret project he's been working on will be in!

HEY DOC HOWS THAT SUPERSECRET VINTAGE WATCH COMING?


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

"The ratchet theory extension mechanism [...] "
I understand that this is an autocomplete fail, but as a person with a little bit of background in thermodynamics (Brownian Ratchet, Maxwell's Demon etc.) I am glad that there is a lot of theory applied to the mechanism. You don't want to break the (second) law (of TD), right!


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

New strap on the Antilles 









Plus a confession, that strap was a freebie when I bought the Upholder, it's meant to be for the DevilRay but I messed up the width. So now the orange is struggling to go with the dark rum 🤔


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> In all odds, yeah.
> View attachment 16539535
> 
> 
> ...





Mediocre said:


> Do this.
> 
> That way I get one and I get to read a rant in 6 months when people say they want them.....at no extra charge. It's a win-win really


So...if I can just buy 25 of them, and avoid the WOT / rant...that would piss you guys off?

It's almost worth it, just for that.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> "The ratchet theory extension mechanism [...] "
> I understand that this is an autocomplete fail, but as a person with a little bit of background in thermodynamics (Brownian Ratchet, Maxwell's Demon etc.) I am glad that there is a lot of theory applied to the mechanism. You don't want to break the (second) law (of TD), right!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Plus a confession, that strap was a freebie when I bought the Upholder, it's meant to be for the DevilRay but I messed up the width. So now the orange is struggling to go with the dark rum 🤔


Sorry, my son, we only take confessions on Saturdays...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> So...if I can just buy 25 of them, and avoid the WOT / rant...that would piss you guys off?
> 
> It's almost worth it, just for that.


I'll guarantee a purchase. If I like the fit, that one will turn into three more.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

gavindavie said:


> New strap on the Antilles
> 
> View attachment 16540231
> 
> Plus a confession, that strap was a freebie when I bought the Upholder, it's meant to be for the DevilRay but I messed up the width. So now the orange is struggling to go with the dark rum 🤔


Looks good to me!




docvail said:


> So...if I can just buy 25 of them, and avoid the WOT / rant...that would piss you guys off?
> 
> It's almost worth it, just for that.


I only want one if there is a high likelihood it will result in a lengthy Doc rant later.








But yeah, I'd buy one lol


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> So...if I can just buy 25 of them, and avoid the WOT / rant...that would piss you guys off?
> 
> It's almost worth it, just for that.


I have bought a whole new bracelet just to get the divers expansion clasp. Admittedly I also wanted a 20-16mm taper as well. My Amphion/barracuda hybrid has a Chinese aftermarket Oyster for this reason.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

What're you wearing for #bluewatchmonday?


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Blue Monday 👍 What thread is this 🤭


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> What're you wearing for #bluewatchmonday?
> 
> View attachment 16543165


Very nice, and great strap choice!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apropos of nothing...

Someone emailed us yesterday, asking how to set the time on their new NTH. I don't think of myself as someone who gets nervous easily, but those sorts of questions tend to make me nervous.

It's only the second time I can remember someone emailing us with a question which made me wonder if they knew they were buying an automatic watch. The first was the classic / cliché "I think the battery is dead". That was someone who bought a L&H Spectre, probably back in 2015 or 2016, which should give you an idea how infrequently we get those sorts of messages.

On the one hand, I might look at it as a good thing, if it means someone who isn't a WIS bought one of our watches. On the other hand, I find myself wondering (again) how such a person finds their way to our website, to buy the watch in the first place. It's not like we advertise outside of the usual WIS places.

I'm probably worried without reason, but I find myself imagining all the worst-case scenarios - they forget to screw the crown back down and disaster ensues; they break the crown trying to force it past time-setting position; they're completely unfamiliar with how automatics work, and complain that the watch stops when it isn't worn for 2 days...

Another customer apparently emailed one of my retailers today, to complain about a "squeaky" bracelet. He sent a video.

I can tell he's got the bracelet sized to be a tad loose, just like I wear mine. In the video, he's shaking his wrist like a crackhead with Parkinson's. Yes, I can hear something in the video. I put one of my watches on, and did the same thing. Yep, I hear something that might be the bracelet, or might be the rotor, just like in the video.

But, seriously, who goes around overzealously shaking their wrist constantly, such that they'd hear their watch bracelet squeak (or the rotor)? What am I supposed to say or do about it?

"Send it back. We'll remove the squeak."

This hobby attracts some odd fish, I'll tell y'all that.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The story above reminds me of my high school gym teacher...

Rando student: Coach, I hurt my arm.

Coach: Does it hurt when you do this? [_swings arm_]

Rando student: Yeah.

Coach: Then don't do that.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Apropos of nothing...
> 
> "Send it back. We'll remove the squeak."
> 
> This hobby attracts some odd fish, I'll tell y'all that.


Easy peasy.... get him to send it in, keep the bracelet (sell out or repurpose) and return with a nice seatbelt Nato strap installed.... squeak gone... another problem solved by the Doc!

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Easy peasy.... get him to send it in, keep the bracelet (sell out or repurpose) and return with a nice seatbelt Nato strap installed.... squeak gone... another problem solved by the Doc!
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


"No charge for the strap..."


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## KogKiller (Apr 15, 2013)

Ordered my first NTH, a v2 Barracuda on BoR. VERY excited as I have been wanting an NTH/H&L watch for years now! I'm huge on details and QC and don't mind spending more on higher quality construction, materials, and design compared to other brands using the same movement. Looking forward to receiving my first NTH and will be posting pics when it arrives!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not today, Isis...

















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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Not today, Isis...
> 
> View attachment 16545657
> View attachment 16545658
> ...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16545738


Say potato if you're real...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KogKiller said:


> Ordered my first NTH, a v2 Barracuda on BoR. VERY excited as I have been wanting an NTH/H&L watch for years now! I'm huge on details and QC and don't mind spending more on higher quality construction, materials, and design compared to other brands using the same movement. Looking forward to receiving my first NTH and will be posting pics when it arrives!


Thanks for your order. If it was the order placed on our site last night, it'll actually ship from one of our retailers, which can delay things a day versus shipping from our warehouse. Hopefully we'll have tracking available by tomorrow. Watch your email and texts for those messages.


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## KogKiller (Apr 15, 2013)

docvail said:


> Thanks for your order. If it was the order placed on our site last night, it'll actually ship from one of our retailers, which can delay things a day versus shipping from our warehouse. Hopefully we'll have tracking available by tomorrow. Watch your email and texts for those messages.


Will do. Thanks! 👍


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"Chris, why are you always behind in work?"

Maybe because my phone legit pings 20 times a day with all sorts of nonsense. 

















Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads-up!

Nearly new stuff added to the nearly new section of the site - 









Nearly New


Why NTH? What does it mean? Is it “Enth” or “N-T-H”? In algebra, N represents an unknown value of infinite possibilities. The process of solving an equation to find the value of N is a process of reducing the unknown and infinite down to the known and finite.




nthwatches.com


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> "Chris, why are you always behind in work?"
> 
> Maybe because my phone legit pings 20 times a day with all sorts of nonsense.
> 
> ...


They are just trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dear sweet baby geezus, please make inoperable / incurable cancer of the thumbs a real thing, which afflicts all those who send messages such as this one, especially those who can't be arsed to hit the "shift" key when capitalization is called for.

In your name we pray, amen.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Dear sweet baby geezus, please make inoperable / incurable cancer of the thumbs a real thing, which afflicts all those who send messages such as this one, especially those who can't be arsed to hit the "shift" key when capitalization is called for.
> 
> In your name we pray, amen.
> View attachment 16546148




I just looked, apparently a real influencer not based in the US. Drake lookalike. Never heard of him....but then again I have no Instatwitchatbook


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I just looked, apparently a real influencer not based in the US. Drake lookalike. Never heard of him....but then again I have no Instatwitchatbook


Back when I was in the army, whenever the state lottery jackpots got really big, we used to make "what would you do with the money if you won" a topic of conversation.

You see, rumor had it that if a soldier won enough money, the army would discharge him. Because how do you keep a guy who's rolling in dough in line, or keep him from being a morale-killer within the unit? Take away his pay? Bust him down a rank or two? Why would he care, if he's loaded?

So, guys would spout the usual stuff - buy a big house on the water, a boat, nice cars, etc.

Not my friend, that lunatic Mehalko. Oh no. "I'd rent a billboard down on Sunrise highway, and put up a picture of Sgt Owens picking his nose."

(Our platoon sergeant, Sgt Owens, had a habit of picking his nose, not just right in front of us, but while he was talking to us. He had a number of unusual techniques he'd employ, to which we gave little nicknames - the finster, the sheister, and homeward bound being the three I remember.)

ME: Dude, why?

MEHALKO: Just to be an a-hole, why not?

If I didn't need to spend my time making money, I would literally (not figuratively) invest heavily in ruining the lives of any and every wannabe influencer nitwit who ever pestered me about a "collaboration". Putting up a billboard in their home town, showing them in some awkward situation, wouldn't be off the table.

And we actually LIKED Sgt Owens.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Back when I was in the army, whenever the state lottery jackpots got really big, we used to make "what would you do with the money if you won" a topic of conversation.
> 
> You see, rumor had it that if a soldier won enough money, the army would discharge him. Because how do you keep a guy who's rolling in dough in line, or keep him from being a morale-killer within the unit? Take away his pay? Bust him down a rank or two? Why would he care, if he's loaded?
> 
> ...


I can't imagine. 

You think an Instagram for "Mediocre Watches " would be a goof influencer site?

🤣


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Influencer - give me free **** with no guarantee that it will afford your business anything.

They don't care if you say no or don't reply. They send dozens of these emails a day for all sorts of items. They don't really care about what you're selling or how your business is doing.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> Influencer - give me free **** with no guarantee that it will afford your business anything.
> 
> They don't care if you say no or don't reply. They send dozens of these emails a day for all sorts of items. They don't really care about what you're selling or how your business is doing.


Internet version of panhandling?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

If I were to win big lotto, the following will occur.

I will hold a talent contest, with a top prize of $2,000k. Open to all employees of my immediately former employer. Judged by me. Winner take all.

Gold. 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> Heads-up!
> 
> Nearly new stuff added to the nearly new section of the site -
> 
> ...


What a wildly appropriate place for them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

The person with the squeaky bracelet should get the Santa Cruz that is currently in the "nearly new" section: looks like that has neither a BoR nor an Oyster bracelet available- so nothing can squeak.
(Did you removed the options because the original one was squeaky? 🙄)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> The person with the squeaky bracelet should get the Santa Cruz that is currently in the "nearly new" section: looks like that has neither a BoR nor an Oyster bracelet available- so nothing can squeak.
> (Did you removed the options because the original one was squeaky? )


Not sure what's going on with that. I'll have to check it out.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Meanwhile...









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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> The person with the squeaky bracelet should get the Santa Cruz that is currently in the "nearly new" section: looks like that has neither a BoR nor an Oyster bracelet available- so nothing can squeak.
> (Did you removed the options because the original one was squeaky? 🙄)


There seems to be some problem with the code in our website, which, as far as I can tell, is only affecting that one product page. On the phone with website support now, who are referring me back to the theme developers. Meanwhile, I'll be handing this off to my marketing team to handle, in a textbook demonstration of managerial delegation*.

*read: Shlt rolls downhill.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I'd love to help out my fellow downhill people and just buy it already, so the faulty page can be removed and the ticket closed as "Wontfix"... but I have to respect that timeframe for formation and decision of half a year, right?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

20,000 Post Watch Giveaway :)


I would love to see these become a tradition here on WUS again! Following up on the 15k giveaway I wanted to step it up, but I was not sure how at first. After some thought, I realized it should be a brand new watch and it should be kinda personal AND WUS focused. With that in mind, I thought...




www.watchuseek.com






NTH peeps, wanted to make sure you saw it!


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Meanwhile...
> View attachment 16547686
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Ooooo, and I know who this is Doc.... you should get him on board as a brand influencer/ambassador!


https://m.facebook.com/seinfeld/videos/unemployed-live-with-my-parents/173847234033/



Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> There seems to be some problem with the code in our website, which, as far as I can tell, is only affecting that one product page. [...]


When adding it to the shopping cart, it shows up as Oyster; they also don't offer shipping rates to Norway. Two reasons for me to leave this opportunity to my colleagues here.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> When adding it to the shopping cart, it shows up as Oyster; they also don't offer shipping rates to Norway. Two reasons for me to leave this opportunity to my colleagues here.


We only ship the Nearly New watches within the US.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Mediocre said:


> 20,000 Post Watch Giveaway :)
> 
> 
> I would love to see these become a tradition here on WUS again! Following up on the 15k giveaway I wanted to step it up, but I was not sure how at first. After some thought, I realized it should be a brand new watch and it should be kinda personal AND WUS focused. With that in mind, I thought...
> ...


That is amazing and an incredible display of generosity on your part. Well done!

Beautiful watch, but I will not be participating because:
1) Just don't need moar watchez.
and
2) I had an Antilles previously, and they just wear too large for me. Watch fits my wrist just fine, but all-dial 40mm watches just look too large on my wrist. Personal perspective only; 7" wrist, most others are fine with the look.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> None of these are my listings.
> 
> Some interesting stuff on eBay...
> 
> ...


Ok you bastid, I actually won the stupid thing lolz









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Ok you bastid, I actually won the stupid thing lolz
> View attachment 16549676
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


$490 seems like a steal, considering what the VAT adds to the price when you buy direct. Nice pickup.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> "Chris, why are you always behind in work?"
> 
> Maybe because my phone legit pings 20 times a day with all sorts of nonsense.
> 
> ...


second one was from Hong Kong, first was from Rio Grande de Sul in Brazil!? (Yeah I get this nonsense on my mobile phone too)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> second one was from Hong Kong, first was from Rio Grande de Sul in Brazil!? (Yeah I get this nonsense on my mobile phone too)


My wife got one last night, with a pic of a lovely young woman in a see-through blouse.

Wife: OMG will you look at this?
Me: yes, please.
Wife: what should I do?
Me: forward the message to me.
Wife: be serious. What if one of your sons got this?
Me: good point. I should make sure they know to forward it to me.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> #NTHursday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep.










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tgif
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Tgif
> View attachment 16552024
> View attachment 16552025
> 
> ...


Gawd, the dial on this is absolutely gorgeous. Looks great with the leather.


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

If anyone is on the fence about getting rid of their black dial Swiftsure, hit me up.

I remember something from a few months ago about new 2k1 designs….any word on those? I’ve been absent on this thread for a while and I don’t recall seeing anything recently.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Doing the weekend domestic thing (on my way to Target for groceries) and still loving this beauty:










Coincidentally, stumbled across these while shopping, and bought them solely because of this forum:


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Coriolanus said:


> Doing the weekend domestic thing (on my way to Target for groceries) and still loving this beauty:
> View attachment 16557057
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for reminding me I have a huge box of these in the cupboard.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Coincidentally, stumbled across these while shopping, and bought them solely because of this forum:
> 
> View attachment 16557058












How to eat stroopwaffles


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Coriolanus said:


> Coincidentally, stumbled across these while shopping, and bought them solely because of this forum:
> 
> View attachment 16557058


Thank you! I've been racking my brain for years trying to remember these things. Describing them to friends and families to no avail. Thank you!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Hey, can any of you Photoshop experts put the blue Vanguard 12 hour bezel on the black Amphion dial, so I can see what it looks like? Don’t ask me why, long story…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Hey, can any of you Photoshop experts put the blue Vanguard 12 hour bezel on the black Amphion dial, so I can see what it looks like? Don’t ask me why, long story…


But why?

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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

3 Devil Ray's. 3 different dials. Same NTH









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

It’s a Blue Tomorro.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


>


FIFY


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TheBearded said:


> Thank you for reminding me I have a huge box of these in the cupboard.


What You forgot you had them? 
Blasphemy! 
Send them to me to look after.... and all those Nth watches you forgot you had... package 'em up and ship them downunder 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> FIFY


Nevermind. This is close enough:


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Nevermind. This is close enough:
> 
> View attachment 16558066


Oh. Well, if kinda-sorta will do...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Oh. Well, if kinda-sorta will do...
> 
> View attachment 16558091
> 
> View attachment 16558090


Brother, you know from whence I come. Stay tuned.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Brother, you know from whence I come. Stay tuned.


FWIW, I had an Amphion Commando, which was da beez kneez, and only parted with it, when the Scorpene Nomad was released... only to swap out the Nomad bezel insert for Commando version. Which in my book, is about perfect. But while considering styles, also picked up a Vanguard insert. Y'know, just in case... Which means that, at the moment, I got one of each NTH Sub 12hr insert - Commando, Catalina, Nomad, and Vanguard*.

I tried an Antilles, and it just wears too large for my taste. Fits well on my 7" wrist, but all-dial style at 40mm is not my jam.

I almost need to try a Devil Ray. On principle...

*Nobody: How watch nerd are you?
Me: I got all of one particular style of bezel insert, from a certain model of watch, sold by a cult microbrand.
Nobody:..
Me: I know, I know...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> FWIW, I had an Amphion Commando, which was da beez kneez, and only parted with it, when the Scorpene Nomad was released... only to swap out the Nomad bezel insert for Commando version. Which in my book, is about perfect. But while considering styles, also picked up a Vanguard insert. Y'know, just in case... Which means that, at the moment, I got one of each NTH Sub 12hr insert - Commando, Catalina, Nomad, and Vanguard*.
> 
> I tried an Antilles, and it just wears too large for my taste. Fits well on my 7" wrist, but all-dial style at 40mm is not my jam.
> 
> ...


I still have the Amphion Commando, but it's not the one in question. Still a favorite (that lume!)
I also have the Vanguard, bezel already installed  And I have a dial, from somewhere (cough cough), that's in need of a home. And rather than put it in just any-old case, I was thinking I'd put it in my favorite of all cases, the NTH sub. As I already have a little history of having modded NTH dials. And a love for 12-hour bezels, because work...

Regarding the Devil Ray, I tried one on, and it DOES wear smaller due to the short lug to lug. But the sub is still the case for me.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> I also have the Vanguard, bezel already installed  And I have a dial, from somewhere (cough cough), that's in need of a home.
> View attachment 16558377


I see... 🤣


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sub Monday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









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## My3Sons (9 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Meanwhile...
> View attachment 16547686
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Sorry, I know I'm late on this, but thank you for posting that. With the new baseball season upon us it is important to remember the assistant to the traveling secretary and the infamous trade of Jay Buhner.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My3Sons said:


> Sorry, I know I'm late on this, but thank you for posting that. With the new baseball season upon us it is important to remember the assistant to the traveling secretary and the infamous trade of Jay Buhner.


I think it's more imperative for us to remember the greatness of the man who switched the Yankees' uniforms from polyester to cotton.






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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Todaro Tuesday
















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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

That time of the year when the sun is up quite a bit, but it's still good conditions for cross country skiing. Everything is so bright and blue!


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Turns out my coffee cup has a greater diameter than my stroopwafels, so had to improvise this morning:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom.










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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

BAM









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> BAM
> View attachment 16561574
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


You trying to one-up me???


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

BANG


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> You trying to one-up me???


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So Doc.. 

You and one of your older WoT's popped into my head today. One of the ones talking and b*tching about keeping track of a large number of SKUs. 

So the company I work for is in the process of relocating our shop. Breakdown everything, sort it, pack it, transfer it, unpack it, cycle count every tracked inventory item and finally put it in its new location. 

I recently took an upward move, leaving behind the electrical and special projects to take over the entire shop floor and production team. So I'm now privy to some information that I didnt have before... 

You know how many individual part numbers we track in our system?

Over 9000. I couldn't give you a monetary cost for all of what we're relocating. But if I had to guess... I'd say 4-5mil. 

FML.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

josiahg52 said:


> BANG
> View attachment 16561895



Lume date window is a super-slick detail.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Lume date window is a super-slick detail.


Holy crap. I didn't even notice that until you mentioned it. Now I can't unsee it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> So Doc..
> 
> You and one of your older WoT's popped into my head today. One of the ones talking and b*tching about keeping track of a large number of SKUs.
> 
> ...


I guarantee your company has a better system for tracking it all than I do.

Tracking watch SKUs isn't the hardest part. It's actually the easiest. 

For most accessories, as long as they're "in the system", it's not too difficult, but we have some that aren't exactly "in the system" the way they should be, so they can complicate my life, sometimes. 

Like, when we order UV torches, we'll order 1000 at a time, but only ship maybe 100 to the warehouse at a time, and I lose count of what we ship to retailers after we've shipped. I have no idea how many we actually have.

But for lots of other things - boxes, the printed cardboard sleeves for the boxes, those little plastic cards and silicone "smart wallets", spare parts - it's a challenge for me to keep on top of it all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Holy crap. I didn't even notice that until you mentioned it. Now I can't unsee it.


LOOK AT IT!!!


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I guarantee your company has a better system for tracking it all than I do.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> LOOK AT IT!!!
> 
> View attachment 16563573


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

mconlonx said:


> Lume date window is a super-slick detail.


I prefer a date complication but hate that there is usually a black hole there at night. It's a detail of the Upholder that I really like.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Use what you are comfy with - some Python and an SQL-ish database, Excel files on SharePoint, Google Spreadsheets- eventually, sticking to the process is more important than the file extension. I have seen people using Jira tasks for PLM - successfully.
When you have a lot of stuff per person involved, data organization/entry must be a swift thing, though. You can't expect humans to enter 15-digit IDs all day long without a glitch.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

It’s #NTHursday folks. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

#NTHursday.










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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday

Go NTHursday up the giveaway thread!!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I hope this thread is quite because you are all out doing awesome stuff......that you will come back and share!

Me? I'm taking a short break from working right now. The opposite of awesome LOL


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Just sitting at home staring at this not-an-NTH I recently picked up in trade. Always kind of wanted one, it's definitely a watch that a lot of people love. Honestly didn't think I'd like it as much as I do.


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

SS


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I hope this thread is quite because you are all out doing awesome stuff......that you will come back and share!
> 
> Me? I'm taking a short break from working right now. The opposite of awesome LOL


Quite what?

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Just sitting at home staring at this not-an-NTH I recently picked up in trade. Always kind of wanted one, it's definitely a watch that a lot of people love. Honestly didn't think I'd like it as much as I do.
> View attachment 16570073


That's my favorite SMP. Nice pickup.

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> SS
> View attachment 16570138


Where'd you get the fake Seiko with correctly aligned chapter ring? Looks nice. 

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We had our dog's brother over for a play date today...





































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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> I hope this thread is quite because you are all out doing awesome stuff......that you will come back and share!
> 
> Me? I'm taking a short break from working right now. The opposite of awesome LOL


No awesome stuff here. I took a bit of a break from WUS during the whole MoonSwatch thing. Anywho, here's a picture of some watches:


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Quite what?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Nice. Quite calm lol

I just tried it again, for some reason my Samsung REALLY does not want me to type "quiet" . Probably because I got upset and threatened to replace it


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Your Samsung has a point, @Mediocre , this is quite a thread!

I'll show myself out, thank you.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Nice. Quite calm lol
> 
> I just tried it again, for some reason my Samsung REALLY does not want me to type "quiet" . Probably because I got upset and threatened to replace it


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Enjoying my Santa Fe over the Easter weekend. I love the combination of black and white with a touch of red, and then the Jubilee just sets it all off so nicely. 










And then there is the lume that just tops it all off











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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Happy Easter!









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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Happy Easter!
> View attachment 16571962
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Happy Easter!

Great, now I need a BoR for my Brownacuda


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Wearing mine today as well









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Omegafanboy said:


> Enjoying my Santa Fe over the Easter weekend. I love the combination of black and white with a touch of red, and then the Jubilee just sets it all off so nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Such an ugly watch. Not sure why you keep it . . .


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)




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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

One dog on my lap, the other waiting his turn in the background. Anyone would think it was breakfast time and they wanted fed


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

josiahg52 said:


> Just sitting at home staring at this not-an-NTH I recently picked up in trade. Always kind of wanted one, it's definitely a watch that a lot of people love. Honestly didn't think I'd like it as much as I do.
> View attachment 16570073













What’s not to like?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Rhorya said:


> What’s not to like?


Like the bezel mod. Makes a thin Planet Ocean-type watch or adds a more vintage feeling to a modern Seamaster. Requires a crystal change also? Might as well do the second hand at that point, too.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

josiahg52 said:


> Like the bezel mod. Makes a thin Planet Ocean-type watch or adds a more vintage feeling to a modern Seamaster. Requires a crystal change also? Might as well do the second hand at that point, too.


Yes, the ProPlan mod.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Welp, as long as we're talking Omega...

1. I love the SMP 2254.50 and the 2500 PO's.

2. I hate the helium release crown at 10, and the date windows.

3. And the newer PO's are too damned thick.

There, I said it. Unpopular opinions, perhaps, but hot take gonna take (or be hot?).

Flame suit on. Flame away. I ain't gonna run.

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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Welp, as long as we're talking Omega...
> 
> 1. I love the SMP 2254.50 and the 2500 PO's.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with all three. I wish Omega would stop making all their watches so damn thick. I love my Aqua Terra 2500 because it is so thin.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Welp, as long as we're talking Omega...
> 
> 1. I love the SMP 2254.50 and the 2500 PO's.
> 
> ...


I say this as a dude who has plans to purchase a 210.30 in the next couple of months...

1. Meh.
2. Impartial on HRV. 6 date, much better than 3 date.
3. Agreed.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> [...] 2. I hate the helium release crown at 10 [...]


This. Deal breaker. Full stop.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

1. Agreed. The 2254.50 and 2500 POs are very nice.

2. That's a Seamaster Pro thing. Date windows can be done right or wrong. The 2254.50 is done right even if it's at the 3 o'clock spot. 6 o'clock is better. Contrasting/clashing date wheels, superfluous window treatments, black holes of lume are wrong ways of doing it.

3. Agreed.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't mind that Omega puts the date at 3, vs 6. I'd rather not have the date at all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I can't even.

"NTH Barracuda"...









NTH Barracuda - Vintage Black, With Date Stainless Automatic Dive Watch | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH Barracuda - Vintage Black, With Date Stainless Automatic Dive Watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I can't even.
> 
> "NTH Barracuda"...
> 
> ...


Dude you made a quartz? Lol 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Todaro Tuesday
















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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I can't even.
> 
> "NTH Barracuda"...
> 
> ...


What's wrong with it? Looks genuine all the way down to that quartz movement you've been surreptitiously sneaking into our watches and trying to pass off as... Japanese mechanical...

You know we're onto you Doc...don'tcha...











Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Dude you made a quartz? Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I can't be sure, but the font on "Barracuda" appears to be the same one used for "Baywatch".


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I can't be sure, but the font on "Barracuda" appears to be the same one used for "Baywatch".
> View attachment 16575991


Nope a gen-u-ine Barracuda!









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Another hey, another holla...









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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Dude you made a quartz? Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


It's the top secret retro project he regrets ever mentioning that we can't forget to bring up!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Ooo, this IS fun!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Been a minute since I did this.

Low stock alert.

*Last piece anywhere:*

DevilRay, Black, With Date - 인투와치 - email [email protected] to have the Korean tax removed.

Swiftsure, Black, DLC - 2K1 Subs - Swiftsure - DLC | NTH Watches Hong Kong

Swiftsure, Black, With Date - NTH Swiftsure Black Date

Thresher, Black, No Date – 2K1 Subs - Thresher - Black | NTH Watches Hong Kong

Thresher, Black, With Date - 인투와치

Nazario Vino Rosso, DLC – NTH Nazario Vino Rosso DLC No Date

Nazario Vino Rosso, Stainless - 인투와치

Näcken Renegade, With Date - NTH - Nacken Renegade with Date – FiveFortyFive

v.2 Näcken Modern Black, No Date - NTH Näcken Modern Black No Date BoR V2 - Serious will switch out the bracelet for you if you want the oyster. Email them at [email protected].

*Low stock (4 or fewer pieces left):*

Scorpène Nomad No Date - 인투와치

Bahia with Date - 인투와치

DevilRay, White, No Date - 인투와치

Swiftsure, Black, No Date - 인투와치 

OR 2K1 Subs - Swiftsure - Black | NTH Watches Hong Kong​
Swiftsure, Blue, No Date - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=203&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Thresher, Blue, With Date - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=209&cate_no=60&display_group=1

v.1 Näcken Modern Black, With Date - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=99&cate_no=60&display_group=1

v.1 Näcken Modern Blue, With Date - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=170&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Scorpène - Blue, No Date - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=89&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Antilles - Dark Rum, No Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-antilles-dark-rum-no-date 

OR https://www.watchgecko.com/nth-antilles-dark-rum-divers-watch​OR https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=248&cate_no=60&display_group=1​
Antilles - Dark Rum, With Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-antilles-dark-rum-date

v.2 Näcken - Modern Black, With Date - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nacken-modern-black-date-bor-v2 

OR https://www.watchgecko.com/nth-nacken-automatic-diver-watch-with-modern-black​
DevilRay, Blue, No Date - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=157&cate_no=60&display_group=1 

OR https://www.watchgecko.com/nth-2021-devilray-automatic-dive-watch-blue​
DevilRay, Blue, With Date - https://www.watchgecko.com/nth-2021-devilray-automatic-dive-watch-blue 

OR https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=156&cate_no=60&display_group=1 OR https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/devilray-blue​
Antilles - Hpnotiq - https://longislandwatch.com/nth-ant...ch-with-a-dd-ar-sapphire-crystal-ww-nth-tnhn/ 

OR https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=275&cate_no=60&display_group=1​OR https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/tropics-antilles-hpnotiq​OR https://fivefortyfive.nz/products/nth-antilles-hpnotiq-blue-nodate?_pos=7&_sid=180e29443&_ss=r​


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Been a minute since I did this.
> 
> Low stock alert.
> 
> ...


What, no well brushed, Pepsi bezel, quartz Barracuda amongst them? 

I see what you're doing... you're just dribbling them out on fleabay... one at a time to wet our appetite! 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Anyone else doing #whitedialwednesday?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rare (1 of only 10 produced) DLC Barracuda for sale - NTH BARRACUDA BLACK DATE DLC | eBay


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Anyone else doing #whitedialwednesday?
> 
> View attachment 16578512


Nah.









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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

New Geckota sail cloth strap I just got from @blitzoid I think it looks great on the Amphion Vintage Gilt


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> If anyone is on the fence about getting rid of their black dial Swiftsure, hit me up.
> 
> I remember something from a few months ago about new 2k1 designs….any word on those? I’ve been absent on this thread for a while and I don’t recall seeing anything recently.


Yes, we have more 2K1's coming, including one new version. Stay tuned for more info as release date nears. We're probably 30-45 days out.

Not sure if you're aware of it, but there are still a handful of black Swiftsure's left available, new. There's a with-date (last one in the world) at Serious. IntoWatch in Korea and the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong have the last no-dates.

The next / upcoming release will NOT include any of the 2K1 models currently still in stock (no Swiftsure Black/Blue, or Thresher Black/Blue), so if you want one, best get it before they're gone.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Yes, we have more 2K1's coming, including one new version. Stay tuned for more info as release date nears. We're probably 30-45 days out.
> 
> Not sure if you're aware of it, but there are still a handful of black Swiftsure's left available, new. There's a with-date (last one in the world) at Serious. IntoWatch in Korea and the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong have the last no-dates.
> 
> The next / upcoming release will NOT include any of the 2K1 models currently still in stock (no Swiftsure Black/Blue, or Thresher Black/Blue), so if you want one, best get it before they're gone.


Yes, I sometimes quotes myself...

Other new stuff coming soon / this year...

1. I finally un-stuck myself and finished the tribute to Sgt Mack Sub. It's in production. Stay tuned.

2. Watch Gecko commissioned some funky vintage-retro Subs with high-profile crystals, date magnifiers, and aluminum (yes, ALUMINUM, though I suppose we'll need to say "al-LOU-min-EE-um") inserts. Stay tuned.

3. The above-mentioned new 2K1 design will break cover with an upcoming release. 

4. Long Island Watch has commissioned a limited run / return performance of the Vanguard.

5. If I can re-un-stick myself, I'll finish the non-diver design, and get that into production for a late-year release.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Yes, I sometimes quotes myself...
> 
> Other new stuff coming soon / this year...
> 
> ...


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

rpm1974 said:


> Anyone else doing #whitedialwednesday?
> 
> View attachment 16578512


Kinda...









Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

josiahg52 said:


> Just sitting at home staring at this not-an-NTH I recently picked up in trade. Always kind of wanted one, it's definitely a watch that a lot of people love. Honestly didn't think I'd like it as much as I do.
> View attachment 16570073


If you plan on keeping it longer term, I'd definitely recommend the clasp update mod. It made the wearing experience 10x for me and made the watch feel more modern with the quick adjust.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Kinda...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a screw-down dial? 

Must be super very water resist...


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Is that a screw-down dial?
> 
> Must be super very water resist...


Screw down crown. Fixed bezel with mono bloc case. So you have "unscrew" the bezel to access the movement. 

Just heard it's been tested to 760m before the crystal shattered... so I guess it is water proof. 

It's just a desk diver for me, I ain't sporting something this expensive when crashing and bashing about outdoors! ‍

At 46mm and all bronze, it gives me a good old workout lugging it around all day. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

The printed markers on the Téleios prototypes were a little off. Considering that Téleios means "perfect", would this be irony? I'm pretty sure that's irony...

(My team noticed and corrected the error even before shipping the prototypes, so the production pieces are spot-on)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> The printed markers on the Téleios prototypes were a little off. Considering that Téleios means "perfect", would this be irony? I'm pretty sure that's irony...
> 
> (My team noticed and corrected the error even before shipping the prototypes, so the production pieces are spot-on)
> 
> View attachment 16580096


I was just about to lay into you for criticizing the work of my friend Rusty, but then I kept reading and realized...you're Rusty.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In case you missed it...

One of the guys from the BSHT is taking trolling WUS beyond epic, all the way to god level, here - 









Tudor BB58 Blue: There, I fixed it.







www.watchuseek.com


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> In case you missed it...
> 
> One of the guys from the BSHT is taking trolling WUS beyond epic, all the way to god level, here -
> 
> ...


I laughed when I saw that originally posted


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> In case you missed it...
> 
> One of the guys from the BSHT is taking trolling WUS beyond epic, all the way to god level, here -
> 
> ...


Could rank with best thread ever, up there with the "*Where can I buy a "minimalist" watch just like this, but made out of metal? (not plastic!)*" thread.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Could rank with best thread ever, up there with the "*Where can I buy a "minimalist" watch just like this, but made out of metal? (not plastic!)*" thread.


Some strong contenders in that contest. Trona mines and Spandex shirt guy are heavy hitters. Also can't rule out the Mars Mandy Viscunt and the Bapex Milgauss homage threads.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Some strong contenders in that contest. Trona mines and Spandex shirt guy are heavy hitters. Also can't rule out the Mars Mandy Viscunt and the Bapex Milgauss homage threads.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Now I know what I'll be doing this week. Trying to find those threads...


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

dmjonez said:


> Now I know what I'll be doing this week. Trying to find those threads...


Here's spandex man. 








36 - 42 Is Not The Sweetspot Claimed!


Over the past couple of weeks I have read numerous articles about Basel, new watch debuts and pre Basel releases! Most articles are critical about something - the Dial, the size, the material, the bracelet etc ... the ones that really get me are the size ....'s claiming 40 is perfect and even a...




www.watchuseek.com





Don't forget to check out the TPG thread in the Cafe.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Here's spandex man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think I found the Trona Mine



https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/some-may-wonder-why-am-i-so-extreme.5312435/



Runner up, with a Trona mine reference









NEED A JOB? LOVE WATCHES? HATE OFFICES?


The lockdown sucked in so many way it's not even funny. One thing it did was prove to many of us that with a laptop and [some] self discipline, we can work from anywhere. Why not take it to that max and join our ambassador group? This is open to content creators, watch designers, business...




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Now I know what I'll be doing this week. Trying to find those threads...


They won't be as entertaining since the WUS stupendous software change-over, and a lot of the images were lost.

Bapex Milgauss - What do you guys think of this Milgauss homage?

Mars Mandy Viscunt - ΩMG: AquaTerra on Mars

Definitely not the same after the software change. Just looking at my own posts in the threads, and the missing images, it's nowhere near as funny as they were at the time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I think I found the Trona Mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't even follow the Trona mine thread, but the references to it were enough for me to know it was Legend - wait for it - dary.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I didn't even follow the Trona mine thread, but the references to it were enough for me to know it was Legend - wait for it - dary.


Dang, now that I've gone down the rabbit hole, I stumbled on this:








Leaving the forum I found today


Well, it is settled then. I am not wanted here. Since I joined today and don't have posts from years ago, I am irrelevant. My questions void. My watch, a forbidden sin. Please watch God moderators, forgive me, a retched soul, a castaway. I thought you people would be experts, but you are too...




www.watchuseek.com





And a spinofff:









I found this watch in Grandpa's coffin


It sucked that it rained today while digging up his grave, but it'll be worth it. An SS Rolex Submariner with a Trona dial! Extreme resale value!




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Dang, now that I've gone down the rabbit hole, I stumbled on this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just the "Grandpa's coffin" thread title has me pissing myself. I don't know that I can look at the actual thread...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boo.

Yah.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Smaug (Jan 8, 2011)

Doc, what have you got with a date for small wrists?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Leaving the forum I found today
> 
> 
> Well, it is settled then. I am not wanted here. Since I joined today and don't have posts from years ago, I am irrelevant. My questions void. My watch, a forbidden sin. Please watch God moderators, forgive me, a retched soul, a castaway. I thought you people would be experts, but you are too...
> ...


*wretched...

Just sayin'...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Smaug said:


> Doc, what have you got with a date for small wrists?


An Atticus.









Adventure Series


Stainless-steel sports watches for everyday wear.



atticuswatch.com





But, if you want to go 40mm, I got with-date NTH Subs a-plenty. 









NTH Subs


NTH, pronounced either “Enth” or “N-T-H”, is about acknowledging the past with a “Nod to History”, but also looking forward, exploring our limits, and taking things as far as we can, to the “Nth degree”, where “N” represents infinite possibility.




nthwatches.com





Well...maybe not "plenty". There are 5 versions of the v.2 available, plus some v.1's floating around with our overseas retailers. Not too many. We've got a few more v.2 Subs coming soon.

The Tropics are also 40mm, but wear bigger than the Subs, because internal bezel may as well be all-dial, it seems.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> *wretched...
> 
> Just sayin'...


I thought he was saying he retched.

Sometimes, that happens.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Here's spandex man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd forgotten about TPG. Why did you have to remind me? Didn't even know about that thread. Never look in the Cafe. Like, ever.

Until today.

Somehow, I must have looked at the thread before, because when I clicked on it, I landed on page 190.

So, so, so, so very lost am I. No idea what's going on, or who the players are.

Scroll through a couple pages, and spot this...



BobMartian said:


> Nothing is lower than Paul Thorpe selling jpeg images of cartoon watches aka boomer NFTs


Okay, so...NFT's...didn't I just spot some semi-hilarious thread, like, three days ago, about some Swiss micro-brand selling NFT's? I'm certain I did. But no amount of searching for it could turn it up. Now I'm wondering if the entire thread was deleted by the mods, because:

A. It was one big advertisement, and...

B. The brand wasn't a forum sponsor.

If you missed it, it was pretty epic. I was going to post an NFT-themed GIF from South Park, but thought better of it. No need to rile up yet another competitor. Lord knows how that would come back and bite me in the tuchus.

But what my search for "NFT" did turn up was insane. Apparently Patek, Hublot and Bulgari are all into this nonsense? 

But, back to TPG...

It amazes me that there's apparently a huge online community engrossed in watching a handful of scumbag nitwits self-destruct in real-time. I almost never watch YouTube, at all. Like, almost NEVER. I don't watch any videos about watches. Like, almost NEVER. Unless they're about NTH watches, and even then, I skip forward, like, a lot. I so don't give a crap what anyone on YouTube has to say about anything.

That some apparent ex-convict with a coke habit can mesmerize thousands of people for longer than the average GIF takes to re-start is a sad commentary on the state of both society and entertainment.

If anyone needs me, I'll be hunkered down in my office, creating content for my new YT channel, focused on the burgeoning market for NFT's from luxury brands. I think I'll call the channel "WTF-NFTs-YGBSM, with Doc." 

Every video will just be me, ranting about the latest brand's NFT release, "WTF? Another NFT? YGBSM! GTFOH!" 

Then I'll pitch my "experience", for only $1,000...

"For just $1,000, you'll get to come to my office, for one hour, and watch me work, and pick my nose, and anything else I do, and ask me questions, which I'll answer..."

(#marketinggenius)


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'd forgotten about TPG. Why did you have to remind me? Didn't even know about that thread. Never look in the Cafe. Like, ever.
> 
> Until today.
> 
> ...


yolo.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

WatchUSeek Watch Forums







 www.watchuseek.com





179 pages...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> Here's spandex man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the greatest thread of all time. No one beats the Baron.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

why did you have to link to that "Milgaus" thread.. - now i know what I need in my life. It's glorious...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> why did you have to link to that "Milgaus" thread.. - now i know what I need in my life. It's glorious...


Just remember...Ape shall not kill Ape.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Pharos Phriday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

OK, I'm down the rabbit hole with some of those threads, looks like its gonna be a fun afternoon.

From the unintentional Post thread


I have short stubby legs so Longines no good for me, I need short jeans


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wassup.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

V1 LE DR today


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Barracuda - Vintage Black, With Date Stainless Automatic Dive Watch | eBay


<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Barracuda - Vintage Black, With Date Stainless Automatic Dive Watch.</p>



www.ebay.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone ever heard of a no-date GMT?

Sub-question, is there a use-case for a no-date GMT, or is it just stupid on its face?


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> They won't be as entertaining since the WUS stupendous software change-over, and a lot of the images were lost.
> 
> Bapex Milgauss - What do you guys think of this Milgauss homage?
> 
> ...


Those were - entertaining

But this is still my favourite:

Does this constitute as a grail watch?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> Those were - entertaining
> 
> But this is still my favourite:
> 
> Does this constitute as a grail watch?


Comedy gold...


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Anyone ever heard of a no-date GMT?
> 
> Sub-question, is there a use-case for a no-date GMT, or is it just stupid on its face?


Do not recall seeing one, but I would actually prefer a no-date GMT. It can easily be the wrong date in the alternate time zone, and they are already busier b/c of extra hand.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Does a no-date GMT movement exist? It would bother me. The "ghost" position, I mean.


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

docvail said:


> Wassup.
> View attachment 16583020
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Am I the only one who hears Hart in their head every time I see one of these beautiful watches? Can you feed beads of rice to a barracuda?

In a vain attempt to provide potentially useful input, I'll say that personally if two versions of a GMT were side by side, I'd pick the one without the date. The date will raise questions for G hours of the day, where G=the number of hours difference between the two times zones you're confusing the date in of with for those hou... see? I'm already confused just talking about it.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

TempusHertz said:


> Am I the only one who hears Hart in their head every time I see one of these beautiful watches? Can you feed beads of rice to a barracuda?
> 
> In a vain attempt to provide potentially useful input, I'll say that personally if two versions of a GMT were side by side, I'd pick the one without the date. The date will raise questions for G hours of the day, where G=the number of hours difference between the two times zones you're confusing the date in of with for those hou... see? I'm already confused just talking about it.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> Those were - entertaining
> 
> But this is still my favourite:
> 
> Does this constitute as a grail watch?


Worked my way through that whole thread....wow 

For the first time in my entire forum lurking life, I think I was in the presence of a jedi troll master. I mean perigeefilms just kept working that thread... he didn't even have to bait the hook. 

I was in awe. We have gotta get him over here to liven things up! 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Not at all watch related, but as this thread has covered many things from cars to the correct colour of blue, I thought I'd ask if any one knew what these are.









I was clearing the attic space upstairs when I found them, the house is over 100 years old and I think they have been there since it was built.
My best guess is some sort of old fashioned battery.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Not at all watch related, but as this thread has covered many things from cars to the correct colour of blue, I thought I'd ask if any one knew what these are.
> View attachment 16585045
> 
> 
> ...


Used in the earliest quartz watches. 

Maybe one was in that guy's Versace chrono. He did say it weighed over 900g.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Do not recall seeing one, but I would actually prefer a no-date GMT. It can easily be the wrong date in the alternate time zone, and they are already busier b/c of extra hand.





josiahg52 said:


> Does a no-date GMT movement exist? It would bother me. The "ghost" position, I mean.


I think I'd prefer a no-date GMT, too, but if the movement is only available as a with-date, then you'd have the dreaded ghost-date position on the crown.

I also wonder if a no-date GMT would be logically incorrect, like a triple-calendar without a date window - day of the week, month of the year, but no date of the month?

I suppose an argument could be made in favor of a no-date GMT, though. Like, you need to track time in 2-3 time zones, but don't really need the date on a daily basis, maybe.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I think I'd prefer a no-date GMT, too, but if the movement is only available as a with-date, then you'd have the dreaded ghost-date position on the crown.
> 
> I also wonder if a no-date GMT would be logically incorrect, like a triple-calendar without a date window - day of the week, month of the year, but no date of the month?
> 
> I suppose an argument could be made in favor of a no-date GMT, though. Like, you need to track time in 2-3 time zones, but don't really need the date on a daily basis, maybe.


When I travel abroad I wear my GMT to anything business, and I strictly use it to help with my local time and the time (am/pm) back home. I use my phone for the date


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> When I travel abroad I wear my GMT to anything business, and I strictly use it to help with my local time and the time (am/pm) back home. I use my phone for the date


Yeah, mostly same, except I don't even use a GMT when I travel, not that I cross time zones very often.

When I went to Hong Kong, it was 12 hours ahead of East Coast time. No changing of the time necessary. 10am becomes 10pm. Easy-peasy.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh. I can't even...









NTH Antilles Blue texured dial | eBay


NTH Antilles Blue texured dial with Date.



www.ebay.com





"Watch is sized to my 7 1/2 inch wrist and I do not have the other links. *NTH does provide free extras* however."

No. 

No we do not.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FWIW to anyone going back to look at old threads...

I use Google Chrome on the laptop in my office, but Mozilla Firefox on my non-work laptop. It seems like Firefox somehow shows the images more reliably than Chrome.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ugh. I can't even...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wtf?

_Considers bidding_

Free links! 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

I am now an NTH owner thanks to Mediocre's unbelievable generosoty and some amazing luck! An Antilles Cointreau arrived today and is sized and on the wrist. Stunning dial, perfect case dimensions, terrific bracelet (very easy to size!) and the weight is perfect. Love everything about this. Looking forward to joining in on some NTH conversations!!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

SteveU said:


> I am now an NTH owner thanks to Mediocre's unbelievable generosoty and some amazing luck! An Antilles Cointreau arrived today and is sized and on the wrist. Stunning dial, perfect case dimensions, terrific bracelet (very easy to size!) and the weight is perfect. Love everything about this. Looking forward to joining in on some NTH conversations!!
> View attachment 16585852
> 
> View attachment 16585853


Welcome to the jungle!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

gavindavie said:


> I was clearing the attic space upstairs when I found them, the house is over 100 years old and I think they have been there since it was built. My best guess is some sort of old fashioned battery.


Not only are they old batteries, but there are collectors of the old battery jars...of course there are! 






Antique Battery Jars


History and value of glass battery jars from the 19th and 20th centuries. Find out what your antique battery jar is worth




www.antiquebottles-glass.com


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> Welcome to the jungle!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Glad to be here!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

SteveU said:


> I am now an NTH owner thanks to Mediocre's unbelievable generosoty and some amazing luck! An Antilles Cointreau arrived today and is sized and on the wrist. Stunning dial, perfect case dimensions, terrific bracelet (very easy to size!) and the weight is perfect. Love everything about this. Looking forward to joining in on some NTH conversations!!
> View attachment 16585852
> 
> View attachment 16585853


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

SteveU said:


> Glad to be here!


I'll warn you, we only occasionally talk about watches in here. Don't tell the outsiders.


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

dmjonez said:


> I'll warn you, we only occasionally talk about watches in here. Don't tell the outsiders.


All the better! And mum's the word...


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

SteveU said:


> I am now an NTH owner thanks to Mediocre's unbelievable generosoty and some amazing luck! An Antilles Cointreau arrived today and is sized and on the wrist. Stunning dial, perfect case dimensions, terrific bracelet (very easy to size!) and the weight is perfect. Love everything about this. Looking forward to joining in on some NTH conversations!!
> View attachment 16585852
> 
> View attachment 16585853


Welcome to the club! I can just about guarantee that won't be your last NTH. That cointreau dial is something else, huh? Here's my hypnotiq version.


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

CuriousBob said:


> Welcome to the club! I can just about guarantee that won't be your last NTH. That cointreau dial is something else, huh? Here's my hypnotiq version.
> View attachment 16585945


That is gorgeous. Very impressed so far!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Well if we're showing off our Tropics...


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

gavindavie said:


> Not at all watch related, but as this thread has covered many things from cars to the correct colour of blue, I thought I'd ask if any one knew what these are.
> View attachment 16585045
> 
> 
> ...


Batteries! I've been working with all sorts of batteries my entire adult life. I love them! I have a couple old ones I've found over the years. Cool find!


----------



## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

SteveU said:


> I am now an NTH owner thanks to Mediocre's unbelievable generosoty and some amazing luck! An Antilles Cointreau arrived today and is sized and on the wrist. Stunning dial, perfect case dimensions, terrific bracelet (very easy to size!) and the weight is perfect. Love everything about this. Looking forward to joining in on some NTH conversations!!
> View attachment 16585852
> 
> View attachment 16585853


When I look at that beautiful watch, all I think it tobacco sunburst Stratocaster.


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

TempusHertz said:


> When I look at that beautiful watch, all I think it tobacco sunburst Stratocaster.
> View attachment 16586015


How about this?


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

I think you've basically got the idea, yes.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

so there is that theme going on, huh!


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

No guitar in my pic but the Antilles is back on the bracelet.











bogray57 said:


> Not only are they old batteries, but there are collectors of the old battery jars...of course there are!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





josiahg52 said:


> Batteries! I've been working with all sorts of batteries my entire adult life. I love them! I have a couple old ones I've found over the years. Cool find!


I did a bit (actually a lot) more research on the batteries I found, and what they were for. They are Leclanche wet cells and were apparently used to power the " maid call bells" we still have the signal box on the kitchen wall.









Here is part of the "battery black hole" I feel into last night


----------



## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

gavindavie said:


> No guitar in my pic but the Antilles is back on the bracelet.
> View attachment 16586344
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, in an earlier renovation of our apartment (long before we bought it) some cretin removed one of those and left a hole in the wall and all the wires. They also removed all the call buttons from the rooms. I keep thinking I should make a replacement as I doubt I'd ever find an original.

It was probably done in the 60s or 70s (my wife bought this apartment for her parents in the 80s) when they also split what was once a three floor penthouse into two units. They also removed what I suspect would have been an impressive internal staircase between the bottom two floors. So we have the bottom floor which originally would have been the drawing room, kitchen suite (well, it's spread over 3 rooms!) and a guest suite which would have been a bedroom, parlour, sun-room and bathroom. All in all It's a bit of an odd layout and we can separate the old guest quarters from the rest of the apartment and have effectively two front doors; but even though it's only part of the original apartment it is still very large by modern standards.

The floors above which would have been family rooms directly above us and then staff quarters on the top floor are now another apartment. I can be pretty confident about the conversion because the elevator does not extend up to the floor above us!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Congrats on the win, @SteveU . Welcome to the NTH campfire.

@Mediocre is a solid dude, for sure. And I'll short-sheet the bed of any man who says different.


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

docvail said:


> Congrats on the win, @SteveU . Welcome to the NTH campfire.
> 
> @Mediocre is a solid dude, for sure. And I'll short-sheet the bed of any man who says different.


Thrilled to be here! You make a mean watch, sir.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

SteveU said:


> I am now an NTH owner thanks to Mediocre's unbelievable generosoty and some amazing luck! An Antilles Cointreau arrived today and is sized and on the wrist. Stunning dial, perfect case dimensions, terrific bracelet (very easy to size!) and the weight is perfect. Love everything about this. Looking forward to joining in on some NTH conversations!!
> View attachment 16585852
> 
> View attachment 16585853


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

VH944 said:


> so there is that theme going on, huh!
> View attachment 16586243


I don’t have that watch or any guitar. Does matching dog count?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Ike2 said:


> I don’t have that watch or any guitar. Does matching dog count?
> View attachment 16587628
> 
> 
> ...


Works for me. But you should get a guitar.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

SteveU said:


> Works for me. But you should get a guitar.


I agree Steve. Should probably learn to play one too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Ike2 said:


> I agree Steve. Should probably learn to play one too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never too late.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Nice day to show off this baby. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

Hey, if we're matching our NTHs with our axes, here's my entry...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Congrats on the win, @SteveU . Welcome to the NTH campfire.
> 
> @Mediocre is a solid dude, for sure. And I'll short-sheet the bed of any man who says different.


Ah, short-sheet. Summer camp in the early 60's. A-hole kid in our cabin got the treatment with shaving cream and Coppertone to boot.


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

bogray57 said:


> Hey, if we're matching our NTHs with our axes, here's my entry...
> 
> View attachment 16588122


Nice! And now let me add...


----------



## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

No axe to share (or grind for that matter), but I do have an NTH Swiftsure that is my favorite micro brand watch. And NTH is based out of the Philadelphia region for the win.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

johnniecats said:


> No axe to share (or grind for that matter), but I do have an NTH Swiftsure that is my favorite micro brand watch. And NTH is based out of the Philadelphia region for the win.
> 
> View attachment 16588264


Sweet watch. No matching dog?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Someone say NTH and axe?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> Someone say NTH and axe?
> 
> 
> View attachment 16588340


That's a great shot! 

.....now who has some absinthe??? Lol  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> That's a great shot!
> 
> .....now who has some absinthe??? Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I was wondering who would be the first to compliment my new Potato Cam 4.0


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

SteveU said:


> Nice! And now let me add...
> View attachment 16588187


Who the f*ck still has a landline phone in their house...?


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> Who the f*ck still has a landline phone in their house...?


Me. My wife says we'll need it if the world ends. How can you argue with that.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

SteveU said:


> Me. My wife says we'll need it if the world ends. How can you argue with that.


Uh if the world ends you will need more than calling domino's on a landline lol  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> Uh if the world ends you will need more than calling domino's on a landline lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Totally understand. Applying logic to an illogical situation doesn't always work where wives are concerned.


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

I'm liking this thread already. Bunch of ball busters. I'll fit in, I believes.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)




----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Wearing my one-of-one custom Amphicuda, enjoying the sunshine, and our beautiful apple tree, which is in full bloom. 










I really do love these subs, they just work so well for me. I have 8’ wrists, but these have become my go to divers at 40mm. It is the thinness that really works for me, and that has now become one of my driving factors in choosing watches ever since. 










I am waiting to see what new variations Chris is planning before I add another. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Yes, a new 2K1 is coming. Very excited to see what that is.


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

I'm starting to question my recent ebay find. I haven't seen these hands on other NTH models. Is it legit?


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

A lot going on there . . .


----------



## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

Doc, you've upgraded from using the Miyota to the spring drive!?


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Senorzebra said:


> Doc, you've upgraded from using the Miyota to the spring drive!?


Uhm....

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Better photo of the dial texture. We need more textured dials.


----------



## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> Someone say NTH and axe?
> 
> 
> View attachment 16588340


OK, it’s not my Nth. But, here is one of my watches lying next to a dirty hoe.










Edit: I cannot photograph my Nth right now. It’s raining. I certainly don’t want to bring my Nth out in the rain, what with dynamic pressure and such.


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

Sweet guitars guys. What should we call our band?
The Tattered Vails?
The Barracududes?
The Cointreaupadores?
The Antilles Billies?
The 2KWonders?
Maybe I'll just stick to smacking things with wood and leave the names to the professionals.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I feel a need to buy a harmonica so I can participate


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

CuriousBob said:


> Sweet guitars guys. What should we call our band?
> The Tattered Vails?
> The Barracududes?
> The Cointreaupadores?
> ...


"The Subs"

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CuriousBob said:


> Sweet guitars guys. What should we call our band?
> The Tattered Vails?
> The Barracududes?
> The Cointreaupadores?
> ...


The Miyota 9?
The No-Date Mates?
Not Too Handsome (NTH)?
Chrono Riccardo and the Nonexistent GMTs?
Free Beer?

That last one has nothing to do with watches. I just guarantee a packed bar when the sign outside reads, "Tonight Only - Free Beer!"

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> The Miyota 9?
> The No-Date Mates?
> Not Too Handsome (NTH)?
> Chrono Riccardo and the Nonexistent GMTs?
> ...


A band, I'm in! You can never have too much percussion!


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> The Miyota 9?
> The No-Date Mates?
> Not Too Handsome (NTH)?
> Chrono Riccardo and the Nonexistent GMTs?
> ...


Free Beer wins. Free beer always wins.


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Trying out the Mediocre Antilles Cointreau on the badass rubber strap. 
And I want to be in a band named "Smudge Magnet".


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

SteveU said:


> Trying out the Mediocre Antilles Cointreau on the badass rubber strap.
> And I want to be in a band named "Smudge Magnet".
> View attachment 16590472
> 
> ...


"With hits like the power-ballad, Dust unda' da' Crystal".....

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> "With hits like the power-ballad, Dust unda' da' Crystal".....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This thread needs more cowbell…


----------



## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

Ike2 said:


> Sweet watch. No matching dog?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure Ms. Maya matches, but she is a spectacularly good at napping, girl.


----------



## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> Not Too Handsome (NTH)?


Band name: *N*ot *T*onight, *H*otshot

First song we learn: AC/DC's "Shot Down in Flames" (Ain't it a sha-a-a-a-me, to be shot down in flames...)

Primary venue: The Spring Bar


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Looking for my kazoo.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Uhm....
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Go on...I dare ya Doc... spring drive Nth.. I'm all in

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> A band, I'm in! You can never have too much percussion!
> View attachment 16590180


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> This thread needs more cowbell…


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

DevilRay









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone else get frustrated when they weren't able to wipe this particular smudge off their screen?


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

docvail said:


> Anyone else get frustrated when they weren't able to wipe this particular smudge off their screen?
> 
> View attachment 16591336


I tried the same thing, but it's a Kilmister.


----------



## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Rhorya said:


> Looking for my kazoo.


Please don't.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Git r done.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Those Watch Gecko Devil Rays are so good looking.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

1 of 50 with-date AVG's, looks pretty clean...









FS: NTH Amphion Gilt


Up for sale is a lightly worn NTH Amphion Gilt. I wore this watch in rotation, but looking to move on to a new home to free up funds. The gilt relief is impossible to capture in photos but is gorgeous in person. As always, if there are any questions, please feel free to PM. Specs: Movement...




www.watchuseek.com


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

josiahg52 said:


> Those Watch Gecko Devil Rays are so good looking.


They look good in the dark too









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, just FYI, under the heading of "if it ain't one goddam thing, it's another..."

Y'all know about this thing called "inflation". Right? It's creeping into our costs again. I'm looking at higher costs for watches, and boxes, and shipping, across the board. And we're just getting started.

Another brand owner is telling me he's hearing about factories shutting down. Apparently it's mostly case factories, which, yeah, is kind of a problem. Smaller / low volume brands are going to feel the squeeze more than larger brands, but even larger brands won't be completely immune. Expect higher prices, and longer lead times (like, if you pre-order something, or back a Kickstarter project).

It seems like China's been subsidizing in-country steel prices, but that's coming to an end. Our steel costs could skyrocket, soon.

Please don't be shocked or angry if you see us raising prices $25 on most, if not all new releases this year.

We're all feeling the pinch. I understand. But, I would strongly suggest that if there's a watch you want, from NTH or any brand, I wouldn't think about it too long right now. I'd get it before prices go up.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just to add to the above...

NTH has been fortunate that we've been able to extend the product life cycle of several models, such that we've been able to produce multiple releases of those models between 2016-2018 and now. My vendors tell me that they haven't raised my parts cost because those costs were defined when they were first quoted (back in 2015-2017), and we've generally been ordering most steel parts in larger quantities (higher than MOQ's). Otherwise, most of my parts costs would be 20% higher than what they are.

But, that's not sustainable. They can't continue to cut me a break as their costs are going up so quickly. And, I'm not sure how much more life is left in the life cycle of every product. 

I know the next releases of 2K1's and DevilRays will be at least $25 more than the last releases of those models. The increase might be more than $25. I don't know what the next release of Subs will cost, because we haven't ordered them yet. My hope is that if we need to raise prices, it'll ONLY be $25. 

I haven't done it as much in the last year or so, but I still try to keep an eye on what my competitors are charging. I see a lot that are under-pricing by at least 20%. That's definitely NOT sustainable, if they're seeing the same sort of cost increases I'm seeing.


----------



## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> I know the next releases of 2K1's and DevilRays will be at least $25 more than the last releases of those models. The increase might be more than $25. I don't know what the next release of Subs will cost, because we haven't ordered them yet. My hope is that if we need to raise prices, it'll ONLY be $25.


Do what you have to do Doc. We aren't going anywhere.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Just to add to the above...
> 
> NTH has been fortunate that we've been able to extend the product life cycle of several models, such that we've been able to produce multiple releases of those models between 2016-2018 and now. My vendors tell me that they haven't raised my parts cost because those costs were defined when they were first quoted (back in 2015-2017), and we've generally been ordering most steel parts in larger quantities (higher than MOQ's). Otherwise, most of my parts costs would be 20% higher than what they are.
> 
> ...


A fabricator for my employer mentioned that stainless was getting stupid. $380 CDN for 1” steel plate per square foot. I nodded, generally not having a clue about the price of steel plate. And now I know why. 

This thread. It’s even accidentally educational now.

Sköl.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Git r done.
> View attachment 16591648
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


This must be some form of deep south umerican speak....'cause I'm pretty sure it ain't the queens English

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> This must be some form of deep south umerican speak....'cause I'm pretty sure it ain't the queens English
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


You don't know the half of what I've heard around 'Murica...


















Pick this up from about the 1:00 minute mark...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Did y'all know that Wednesday was named for Odin? 

Now you know.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

RmacMD said:


> A band, I'm in! You can never have too much percussion!
> View attachment 16590180


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone please scoop up this insane deal, so I don't...









FS: NTH Skipjack w/ date


Selling my Skipjack in excellent condition. Very very minimal wear marks on bracelet and a couple of micros on case side from strap changes are about all I can find. Comes with all links and boxes. Asking $325 shipped. Buyer pays fees. CONUS only and no trades. References in signature. Thanks...




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This old thing..









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The US has nothing on the UK...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> The US has nothing on the UK...


One of my favorite movies.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Just to add to the above...
> 
> NTH has been fortunate that we've been able to extend the product life cycle of several models, such that we've been able to produce multiple releases of those models between 2016-2018 and now. My vendors tell me that they haven't raised my parts cost because those costs were defined when they were first quoted (back in 2015-2017), and we've generally been ordering most steel parts in larger quantities (higher than MOQ's). Otherwise, most of my parts costs would be 20% higher than what they are.
> 
> ...


Commodities, especially metals, are going crazy. I'm not surprised at all. It doesn't help that shipping has done the same


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## Lab4Us (Apr 7, 2021)

#NTHursday…


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Cleaned up the old batteries, and managed not to poison / burn / kill myself with the ancient contents. Which was nice.


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

@gavindavie, time to fire up the Flux Capacitor...


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Hey, @docvail a question about my Mediocre Antilles Cointreau. How many of these were made? I read something about there only being 25 of these. Just curious about my awesome new watch! Seriously loving it. My wife loves it as well!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteveU said:


> Hey, @docvail a question about my Mediocre Antilles Cointreau. How many of these were made? I read something about there only being 25 of these. Just curious about my awesome new watch! Seriously loving it. My wife loves it as well!


We made 25 in the first release, then changed the design ever so slightly, and made another 25 for the second release.

If you look at some of the pics online, you'll note that some have tiny lume squares on the beveled surface of the bezel. Those were the first 25. The one you have was from the second 25, which do not have those little lume squares.

With the first release, we had a lot of issues with the alignment of those squares, so for the second release, we deleted them.

Squares:








No squares:


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

docvail said:


> We made 25 in the first release, then changed the design ever so slightly, and made another 25 for the second release.
> 
> If you look at some of the pics online, you'll note that some have tiny lume squares on the beveled surface of the bezel. Those were the first 25. The one you have was from the second 25, which do not have those little lume squares.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, Doc. That is so cool....
I am loving this watch so much and will wear it frequently. Top 10 in my collection!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteveU said:


> Thanks for the reply, Doc. That is so cool....
> I am loving this watch so much and will wear it frequently. Top 10 in my collection!


That better be a danged big collection, if'n it's only in the top 10, Hoss...


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

docvail said:


> That better be a danged big collection, if'n it's only in the top 10, Hoss...


89 and I'll go top 5....


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteveU said:


> 89 and I'll go top 5....


I'm given occasion to rhetorically ponder the point at which one goes from being a watch "enthusiast", someone who likes watches and owns some number which makes for a manageable rotation, to being a "collector", someone who owns more watches than can be realistically worn often enough for anyone to think their owner hasn't lost the plot.


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

docvail said:


> I'm given occasion to rhetorically ponder the point at which one goes from being a watch "enthusiast", someone who likes watches and owns some number which makes for a manageable rotation, to being a "collector", someone who owns more watches than can be realistically worn often enough for anyone to think their owner hasn't lost the plot.


If it helps you, Doc, think of it as 29 3 watch collections. In truth, I was in the right place at the right time and bought a collection at an unreal price. I sold enough to recoup my money, so I am actually ahead on the deal financially. I adore all of them and wear all of them. No existential crisis here, just really love watches! Especially yours!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I’ve got something on the order of 200 watches. There’s a line between collecting and hoarding. I’m just not sure where that line is.


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Rhorya said:


> I’ve got something on the order of 200 watches. There’s a line between collecting and hoarding. I’m just not sure where that line is.


205


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

Rhorya said:


> I’ve got something on the order of 200 watches. There’s a line between collecting and hoarding. I’m just not sure where that line is.


n+2

where n = the size of the collection when you check if you're OK to buy another one and stay under the threshold for hoarding.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I suddenly feel my accumulation of watches to be surprisingly tame


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> I suddenly feel my accumulation of watches to be surprisingly tame


I have 17, and I justify that by keeping 12 in a nice box, two on a winder, one on my wrist, hiding one in my suitcase, and keeping the last one in our cabin. I almost bought another one today, but was saved when they didn't accept my low-ball offer.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> I suddenly feel my accumulation of watches to be surprisingly tame


Same here.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

100+? Feels like it. Maybe less. I'd like to have less.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Here’s about one quarter of the hoard. I’ve never even tried to get them all in one shot.

Too much work.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> 100+? Feels like it. Maybe less. I'd like to have less.



I'll be a bro and help you out. I'm signing @docvail up to take all your unwanted watches. Just ship to 

NTH Headquarters 
ATTN: doc


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> 1 of 50 with-date AVG's, looks pretty clean...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Someone PLEASE buy this watch before I do.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> Someone PLEASE buy this watch before I do.


I thought about it but talked myself off the ledge lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> I thought about it but talked myself off the ledge lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I said my Archimede Outdoor was my last one for awhile.......I may break that now


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> n+2
> 
> where n = the size of the collection when you check if you're OK to buy another one and stay under the threshold for hoarding.


Ah, a maxim I have used often, particularly when referencing and justifying my collection of watches, skis, mountain bikes and sunglasses... yeah I know.. I'm a wierd collector. 

I'm currently running at about 50 watches...I really hate hanging around places like this when others casually justify owning squillions more than I do... it has the effect of resetting my view of normal. I believe the scientific explanation for this effect is the "normalisation of deviance"...

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Mediocre said:


> Someone PLEASE buy this watch before I do.


Phew...I'm safe... it's got a date function so little attraction here these days.. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Phew...I'm safe... it's got a date function so little attraction here these days..
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


If it were no date I would have broken my "done buying" immediately


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I suddenly feel my accumulation of watches to be surprisingly tame


Exactly mediocre.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Exactly mediocre.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

My _super_-_rare_ Dark Rum (only 25 made with squares, won't be re-made ever again! ) easily is in the top three of my five watch collection.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

VH944 said:


> My _super_-_rare_ Dark Rum (only 25 made with squares, won't be re-made ever again! ) easily is in the top three of my five watch collection.


1 of 5


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

er, um... ...currently 141 watches (with a some more on the way).  I may have a problem, although I don't really think so.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> er, um... ...currently 141 watches (with a some more on the way).  I may have a problem, although I don't really think so.


Yep, you definitely have a problem there.... remember it's n+2.... you're clearly a couple of watches short. 

Lift your game son.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I did a quick count of what I have and I think I could pare it down to around 40. That's getting rid of more than a few and adding a couple "special" ones to "round out" the collection. I can sell some, maybe give a few to my brothers or nieces and nephews. Might be something I'll work on.


----------



## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

My collection is not quite as large as some but I too have a nice 12 watch box to showcase my watches, though if I'm honest that number does not include the few in a drawer, a couple in a watch roll and of course the one on my wrist. 
Today it's the Upholder with Duncan in the background.


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I like that strap. Which one is it?

There's something about the Upholder that I really like. Not sure what it is but it just works for me.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

josiahg52 said:


> I like that strap. Which one is it?
> 
> There's something about the Upholder that I really like. Not sure what it is but it just works for me.


That's the Erika's Originals Corsair in yellow. I have a few of these too lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

kpjimmy said:


> That's the Erika's Originals Corsair in yellow. I have a few of these too lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I have an Erika's. The black with a yellow stripe but the Corsair looks good.


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

“Tells good time during sneaky afternoon beer at local tavern.”
New NTH marketing copy? You’re welcome Doc.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Exactly mediocre.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


“Exactly mediocre”. I’ve heard that many a time….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> View attachment 16601294


Damn, that is most decidedly not Mediocre. Looks like you need some spf 30 at a minimum....


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> View attachment 16601294


Hopefully you're there on vacation. 
You need a tan, my dude.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Hopefully you're there on vacation.
> You need a tan, my dude.
> View attachment 16601319


I live here, go 1-2 times/week.....both work and play outside daily. I have probably played 4 hours of basketball outside in the last week! It's unpossible. Permanent light mode screen


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

If we jump in muddy puddles, we must wear our NTH!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

It was raining this morning so I threw on the DR today. True WIS-yness I know.









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yep.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Watch of the Week


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> It was raining this morning so I threw on the DR today. True WIS-yness I know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Clearly defective...

I can hear the WIS screaming, "How can they let such obvious defects slip through QC?!?!?!?"


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Clearly defective...
> 
> I can hear the WIS screaming, "How can they let such obvious defects slip through QC?!?!?!?"


True. I am ashamed that I did not notice this myself lol. I blame your lack of cleansing cloth  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> True. I am ashamed that I did not notice this myself lol. I blame your lack of cleansing cloth
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Torches to the right, pitchforks on yer left.

Please form an orderly queue...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This dropped yesterday. Nice review from an Aussie...


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Clearly defective...
> 
> I can hear the WIS screaming, "How can they let such obvious defects slip through QC?!?!?!?"


Ohhh, I thought it was the new and updated Nth logo... the one with the lightening strike hitting the top... my bad..️

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> This dropped yesterday. Nice review from an Aussie...


Do you need me to translate it into American for you Doc? 

And do tell... what's the bsh project you're working on...hmmm

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Do you need me to translate it into American for you Doc?
> 
> And do tell... what's the bsh project you're working on...hmmm
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


It's not my place to discuss it here. You'd have to ask one of the BSH guys.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mmmmm... donuts.









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One of fiddy...









52 Best Microbrand Watches - A Complete Guide for 2023


In the watch industry, the landscape is made up of companies large and small. In this comprehensive list we take a look microbrand watches that have caught our attention and are producing worthy timepieces




teddybaldassarre.com





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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Time for rebranding? NTH -> AANTH would have you at the top next year!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Time for rebranding? NTH -> AANTH would have you at the top next year!


I got a DM about it on IG as I was out running around, and was skimming it at a red light. Didn't even realize the list was in alphabetical order. Makes me feel better about NTH being so far down in the post.

I generally don't go in for such "top 5" sort of lists, as they seem to always end up just being a list of five or ten brands the author likes. Having a list of 50 seems more "complete", to the extent there's some understandable reasoning behind which brands get the nod, and which don't. I didn't know about the post until this afternoon, so I have no idea what the methodology may have been. I'd never heard of four of five of the brands, and I'm pretty sure at least one (Mercer) is out of business.

Regardless, it's free press, on a site which appears to get >600k visits each month. So it's nice to be included.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When people talk about hating millennials, this is why.

I really ought to be charging for the business advice I give away for free...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Do you need me to translate it into American for you Doc?
> 
> And do tell... what's the bsh project you're working on...hmmm
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


And no, I don't think I need translation. To my American ear, this is the hierarchy of understandable English, from most to least understandable.

1. Northern East Coast Americans ("normal" English-speaking Americans only come from where I'm from.)
2. West Coast Americans
3. Mid-West Americans
4. Canadians
5. (tied) Southerners / red necks / hillbillies (from whatever part of the US they hail)
5. (tied) New Englanders
7. Irish
8. Most Australians not from whatever part of Australia renders its natives all but unintelligible
9. Most English (those not from whatever part of England renders its natives all but unintelligible)
10. Welsh
11. The Dutch
12. English-speaking Scandinavians
13. (tied) the rest of the English
13. (tied) the rest of the Aussies
15. Damned Scots (they ruined Scotland!)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Apparently forum software censors "red necks" when it's all one word?

Since when is that censor-worthy?

How long was I asleep???


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bruh.

I can't even...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> When people talk about hating millennials, this is why.
> 
> I really ought to be charging for the business advice I give away for free...
> View attachment 16607694
> ...


SAY POTATO!!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> SAY POTATO!!!


Donuts are the new potatoes.

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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Donuts are the new potatoes.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I concur..









Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Mmmmm... donuts.
> View attachment 16607504
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Don't threaten me with a good time. You come at me proposing donuts and I'll be more bothersome than a gnat!




docvail said:


> ^Apparently forum software censors "red necks" when it's all one word?
> 
> Since when is that censor-worthy?
> 
> How long was I asleep???


I grew up as a redneck, with redneck friends and family, been called a redneck countless times. It is not censor worthy, because IDGAF. Probably one of those "getting offended on behalf of others" things




docvail said:


> Bruh.
> 
> I can't even...
> View attachment 16607764
> ...



Offer to build a website for him at an exorbitant price


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> I concur..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very this. Very


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Mediocre said:


> Very this. Very


In fact this opens up some potentially lively and heated discussion.....

Doughnuts.....or....stroopwafel?

What should Doc add to every Nth watch shipped as a bonus gift?  

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Birchgrove (Nov 12, 2011)

So today im wearing this!


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

For the first time I am using the twelve-hour bezel to indicate a different time zone. Quite a departure from timing food!








Admitted, it's only by one hour, but since I have it...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> In fact this opens up some potentially lively and heated discussion.....
> 
> Doughnuts.....or....stroopwafel?


The standard WUS answer.

BOTH!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dis one...









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice kudos for Atticus...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Don't threaten me with a good time. You come at me proposing donuts and I'll be more bothersome than a gnat!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I felt a need to embrace my r e d n e c k today. I may have had a sport coat and button up for the office.....but my socks say "i like to party"

In honor of Toby Keith's song.....red solo cup


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

@Mediocre, that's nice work all around. * golf claps *


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Horoticus said:


> @Mediocre, that's nice work all around. * golf claps *


Golf clap cracked me up


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ME: [gets a new laptop, doesn't allow cookies in Mozilla browser]

MOZILLA: Fair enough, here's your random, no-cookies allowed ad...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Two questions.

What is BSH so I might choose to learn more?

Any 2K1 sneak peeks?


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

I think @Mediocre’s socks and Doc’s crop mesh top would be quite the look. *more golf claps *


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> I felt a need to embrace my r e d n e c k today. I may have had a sport coat and button up for the office.....but my socks say "i like to party"
> 
> In honor of Toby Keith's song.....red solo cup
> 
> View attachment 16611710


I like them there shoes. I couldn't/wouldn't wear 'em. But I like 'em.

But they did just get your red neck card revoked. Red Solo cup be damned.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I like them there shoes. I couldn't/wouldn't wear 'em. But I like 'em.
> 
> But they did just get your red neck card revoked. Red Solo cup be damned.
> View attachment 16612228



I see you Mr. "Stepping up them expensive watches"


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> I see you Mr. "Stepping up them expensive watches"


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I like them there shoes. I couldn't/wouldn't wear 'em. But I like 'em.
> 
> But they did just get your red neck card revoked. Red Solo cup be damned.
> View attachment 16612228


I accidentally wore 100% Carhartt today.

Except the socks… 











Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I feel a need to wear Justins and an NTH tomorrow for redemption


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Jeez, all I wear are t-shirts, jeans, and Lucchese, Double H, Corral, Nocona, and other boots. That's it. Don't remember the last time I bought footwear with laces. Did wear a polo last year when I was in Boston with my brother. Did put on a suit for a buddy's funeral last year and wore my nice black dress Luccheses. Great working from home.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Two questions.
> 
> What is BSH so I might choose to learn more?
> 
> Any 2K1 sneak peeks?


BSH = Brotherhood of Submariner Homages. They had a series of threads in the affordable watches sub-forum for years, before departing for greener pastures.

2K1 = stay tuned.


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Just a watch. No donuts, crop tops, red necks, solo cups, socks or annoying millennials. Just so you know I have been reading this whacko thread. And loving this watch!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteveU said:


> Just a watch. No donuts, crop tops, red necks, solo cups, socks or annoying millennials. Just so you know I have been reading this whacko thread. And loving this watch!
> View attachment 16613295
> 
> View attachment 16613294


Come back when you have donuts.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

^…and socks


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

SteveU said:


> View attachment 16614329


Best way to guarantee a good meeting?

Bring donuts for everyone 


Best way to guarantee a bad meeting?

Only bring donut for yourself


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Backstage luuuuuume! Played Rachmaninoff Symphony 2 today.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Mediocre said:


> Best way to guarantee a good meeting?
> 
> Bring donuts for everyone
> 
> ...


Godfrey

Just an FYI, cookies can replace donuts in this scenario as well


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I can't, but he doesn't know that...









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I like them there shoes. I couldn't/wouldn't wear 'em. But I like 'em.
> 
> But they did just get your red neck card revoked. Red Solo cup be damned.
> View attachment 16612228


Doc Holiday hailed from Georgia.

Just sayin'...

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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Doc Holiday hailed from Georgia.
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Yesterday on the long drive home from work I watched as 3 cars kept dancing, because nobody wanted to lead.

As I passed them nd set the cruise I dropped an "I'll be your huckleberry" as I thought of one of my favorite movie scenes of all time


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Doc Holiday hailed from Georgia.
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Meme police here.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

SteveU said:


> Backstage luuuuuume! Played Rachmaninoff Symphony 2 today.


He wrote that while in Dresden, a place I love today, despite of all its conflicts and idiocies... did you play the whole thing? I saw it only once, and they told me that it was cut _down_ to like 45min... great "flavoring" as I call it, strings plus X - are you one of the X?


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

,


VH944 said:


> He wrote that while in Dresden, a place I love today, despite of all its conflicts and idiocies... did you play the whole thing? I saw it only once, and they told me that it was cut _down_ to like 45min... great "flavoring" as I call it, strings plus X - are you one of the X?


I'm a double bass player. The whole thing without the repeat in the first movement is about an hour long. Soooo worth it, though. Truly amazing piece to play and hear.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Yesterday on the long drive home from work I watched as 3 cars kept dancing, because nobody wanted to lead.
> 
> As I passed them nd set the cruise I dropped an "I'll be your huckleberry" as I thought of one of my favorite movie scenes of all time


I was once talking movies with my dad. He said he didn't care much for "Tombstone", and thought "Wyatt Earp" with Kevin Costner in the title role, and Dennis Quaid as Doc Holliday was better.

He was wrong, obviously, but I did like Quaid's interpretation of the character, albeit, not as much as Kilmer's. Too many great lines to deny that performance the nod. 

I wonder if the screenwriter intended Kilmer's lines to be as quirky as they were, or if Kilmer just had a way of delivering them which made them so memorable.

Probably my favorite, for the way it speaks to the camaraderie among ronin:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

8505davids said:


> View attachment 16615410


What bracelet is that??? Looks like it was made to fit the DR.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

8505davids said:


> View attachment 16615410





docvail said:


> What bracelet is that??? Looks like it was made to fit the DR.


That looks bang on! Spill the beans man.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

WatchGecko Zuludiver BOR with curved endlink - wee bit of manipulation but pretty good fit. Because the endlink is sitting up at a angle it curves down a bit in the middle looked at end on, if you know what I mean but its tight against the case. I'm liking it - a BOR does take a bit of beating on a vintage style watch.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

8505davids said:


> WatchGecko Zuludiver BOR with curved endlink - wee bit of manipulation but pretty good fit.


Damn that looks sweet! I may have to order that for myself! You have a link? And did you bend the endlinks to fit? 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I was once talking movies with my dad. He said he didn't care much for "Tombstone", and thought "Wyatt Earp" with Kevin Costner in the title role, and Dennis Quaid as Doc Holliday was better.
> 
> He was wrong, obviously, but I did like Quaid's interpretation of the character, albeit, not as much as Kilmer's. Too many great lines to deny that performance the nod.
> 
> ...



Masterful delivery. 

I will now watch Tombstone the next time I get a chance to watch a movie


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I was once talking movies with my dad. He said he didn't care much for "Tombstone", and thought "Wyatt Earp" with Kevin Costner in the title role, and Dennis Quaid as Doc Holliday was better.
> 
> He was wrong, obviously, but I did like Quaid's interpretation of the character, albeit, not as much as Kilmer's. Too many great lines to deny that performance the nod.
> 
> ...





Mediocre said:


> Masterful delivery.
> 
> I will now watch Tombstone the next time I get a chance to watch a movie


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Damn that looks sweet! I may have to order that for myself! You have a link? And did you bend the endlinks to fit?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


www.watchgecko.com - the watch itself came from them too ... maybe there was a US retailer too??
Little bit of squeezing and a bit of faffing about to locate the spring bars but fairly painless. I had it on another watch (Aramar Walrus) and just thought I'd give it a try on the DR ... I may file a sliver off the edges of the end links eventually but it seems to sit quite nicely as is.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

8505davids said:


> www.watchgecko.com - the watch itself came from them too ... maybe there was a US retailer too??
> Little bit of squeezing and a bit of faffing about to locate the spring bars but fairly painless. I had it on another watch (Aramar Walrus) and just thought I'd give it a try on the DR ... I may file a sliver off the edges of the end links eventually but it seems to sit quite nicely as is.


Thank you! I think I found it. Just the curved endlinks not the seiko ones I assume. I have the same DR. Good eye! 

I've ordered from wg in the past. No worries. Thanks again!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

8505davids said:


> View attachment 16615410


Wow, BoP really works on that.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Watch Gecko has some good bracelets. My Thresher is on their beads of rice.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> I was once talking movies with my dad. He said he didn't care much for "Tombstone", and thought "Wyatt Earp" with Kevin Costner in the title role, and Dennis Quaid as Doc Holliday was better.
> 
> He was wrong, obviously, but I did like Quaid's interpretation of the character, albeit, not as much as Kilmer's. Too many great lines to deny that performance the nod.
> 
> ...


I enjoy them both. I do like Powers Booth in Tombstone.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I enjoy them both. I do like Powers Booth in Tombstone.


Michael Biehn and Powers Boothe were a much better pair of villains than Jeff Fahey and whoever that guy who played Curly Bill was.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I did some watch box rearranging. So here's a shot of the company I keep with my NTHs.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> I did some watch box rearranging. So here's a shot of the company I keep with my NTHs.
> View attachment 16616795


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


>


Well then, here's the rest.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Well then, here's the rest.
> View attachment 16616935


Style appreciation confirmed


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Still my favourite.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Mine, too. 
I am scanning the local classifieds for more NTH though - while lingering in the WPAC. Who said life was simple 🙄


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kind of rare DevilRay. We only made 15 of these.









FS: NTH Devilray v1 WatchGauge Special Edition -...


EDIT: WITHDRAWN As it goes, too much incoming lately, so I've got to move some watches on to new homes. Thus, up for sale is an NTH Devilray v1 WatchGauge Special Edition, with sunburst gray dial and orange chapter ring. Relative to the v2 DevilRays and on, the v1s were notable for being a...




www.watchuseek.com


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Odin again today.









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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

Classic NTH.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Non-watch related rant.

Dudes at the gym need to get over themselves...

So I'm at the gym yesterday, getting ready to do chest & triceps day. I like to start upper body days with leg press or squats, because doing a large-muscle group lower-body exercise to start is supposed to stimulate testosterone production, or something.

There are four machines, three leg press machines and a hack squat macnine, but I really like one of the leg press machines best, based on how it works. A dude is about to get on it, and I see he's only got one 45 lb plate on either side, making for 135 lbs total (I think), which is super-light, really only good for a warm-up set. 

I ask him if I can work in, and say I'll only want to add one plate on either side, making it 225 (I think), total. He tells me to go ahead and do whatever I want, and he'll go after me, because he's going to do - wait for it - TEN FREAKING PLATES ON BOTH SIDES.

I look at the guy. He's about my size. Maybe 10 years younger, maybe even 15, and in better shape, but still, not a bodybuilder or anything close to it. Twenty plates is ridonkulous. That's...lemme see here...carry the four...945 pounds!!!

I'm not even sure what the starting weight is for the machine. I think it's 45, but might be 50, or 100, or might be less. Either way, the plates alone are 900 pounds, so figure the total has to be ~950, give or take. But it might be 1000 lbs for all I know.

So I do my warm-up set of 20 reps with the 135, throw another two plates on, and do three more sets of 12-15 reps with 225. It takes me five-ten minutes, tops.

And when I say "rep", I mean a full rep - heels almost touch my butt cheeks, knees almost to my face, then back to legs fully extended.

A. Full. Rep.

Then I sit behind the machine, on the bench press, to watch this guy.

It takes him a full ten minutes to load the other 16 plates onto the machine, partly because he had to stop and count at least twice, partly because he had to lug plates from other machines and racks spread out around the gym. I'm astounded that no one else in the gym is watching this guy as he lugs half the 45 lb plates in the building over to one machine, in the middle of the room.

So he gets on, and...doesn't even do four full reps. He's barely bending his knees at all. I swear the whole rig isn't moving more than a 5-6 inches. And he stops after four of these "reps". 

I'm just sitting there, shaking my head, when he gets up, pulls 4 plates off either side (taking another five minutes to re-rack them in every corner of the room), then does two more sets of 5 or 6 not-quite-half-reps with 585 lbs. 

Then he gets up, and takes another ten minutes to unload and re-rack the remaining 12 plates. He monopolized that machine for more than half an hour. I did 3 sets each of flat bench, incline bench, dips, and triceps extensions in the time he took with that one machine.

This guy's only saving grace is that he actually did re-rack his weights. Besides dudes monopolizing machines, that's my other big pet peeve at the gym. The gym I go to is the worst when it comes to this most basic weight-room etiquette. RE-RACK YOUR WEIGHTS, PEOPLE. IT'S NOT THAT HARD. YOU LIFTED THE WEIGHT ONTO THE BAR, YOU CAN LIFT IT OFF, JABRONI!

Ridiculous.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Non-watch related rant.
> 
> Dudes at the gym need to get over themselves...
> 
> ...


I have been a gym rat for about 7 years (covid brought me back to WUS, otherwise gym got my time LOL), this entire read cracked me up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I have been a gym rat for about 7 years (covid brought me back to WUS, otherwise gym got my time LOL), this entire read cracked me up.


You feel me though, right?

What sort of limptastic dork throws 900 pounds on a machine if he can't actually lift it?

I can't run for $hlt. You don't see me cranking the treadmill up to 20mph and jumping on like it ain't no thing but a chicken wing...

My 16 year old son recently joined the same gym. His first time there, he's working out with one of his friends. He's struggling to lift two 45 lb dumbbells on the incline bench. His buddy isn't even spotting him. So I go over, and help him do proper / complete reps with good form, knowing he's trying to lift too much weight, but also that he won't listen if I tell him that, or If I tell him he's as likely to injure himself as he is to actually gain any muscle mass or strength.

He actually got pissed at me! "Dad, go away, I got it."

No. No you don't. But whatevs. I'll see you back at the house, after you herniate yourself, dip$hlt. Have fun walking home in agony.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> You feel me though, right?
> 
> What sort of limptastic dork throws 900 pounds on a machine if he can't actually lift it?
> 
> ...


I 100% feel you. Seeing someone throw crazy plates at anything....leg press, bench, squat, etc...and do 1/2 reps (or less) always blows my mind. I mean, you took the time to come and be here. Do it right!

One of the best things that happened for me is that I started lifting with one of my best friends about 7 years ago, dude was and is built like a lumberjack. He was GREAT at encouraging me to lift what I could actually work with, focus on form & reps, and ignore what he was doing. 


The other thing I feel in your post is a kid tying up a machine for a half hour. Drives. Me. Bonkers. If you are taking 30 minutes I expect you to pump out one of those crazy online instructor 10 set workouts that nobody irl actually does at a normal gym. That never happens. Ever.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Another thing...


I have a teenager as well that joins me at the gym

My advice is only sought once injury occurs....

So it can still be ignored


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Another thing...
> 
> 
> I have a teenager as well that joins me at the gym
> ...


OMG, don't even get me started. At least the guy who loaded 900 lbs onto the leg press wasn't a dlck, like my son. He was actually super-nice. Introduced himself, shook my hand, looked me in the eye, big smile. Even gave me the smile-nod a couple of times when we passed each other later on.

My gym also has a guy I secretly call "Tommy Boy", because he looks exactly like Chris Farley asking where the weight room is in the movie of the same name. He literally - not figuratively - has no discernible neck.


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> OMG, don't even get me started.


...and the ones who do a set, then spend 5 minutes sitting on the bench looking at their phone, then another set and back to the phone. And the ones who re-rack the plates but mix up the sizes 😖...who puts a 5 with a 10?? Like with like...one of these is not like the others. And the ones who re-rack 4 or 5 45s on one side of the bench frame and two on the other.

The gym can be a challenging place for OCD. 😝


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Alphabetically, it should be "CDO".


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Making it a Thresher Tuesday. 









Waiting super patiently for the new 2K1 to drop . . .


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bogray57 said:


> ...and the ones who do a set, then spend 5 minutes sitting on the bench looking at their phone, then another set and back to the phone. And the ones who re-rack the plates but mix up the sizes 😖...who puts a 5 with a 10?? Like with like...one of these is not like the others. And the ones who re-rack 4 or 5 45s on one side of the bench frame and two on the other.
> 
> The gym can be a challenging place for OCD. 😝


See? Now you got me started...

I think I'd like to murder the peeps who put the 45 lb plate on the rack, then stack four other (different) weights in front of it, in random order, like 45 - 10 - 25 - 5 - 10. What the serious f**k? Why am I racking 5 and 10 pound plates just to get to the 25's and 45's? 

The guys on their phone - no mercy. I walk right up, stand with my groin uncomfortably close to their face, and ask if I can work in. Amazing how often they decide they're actually done, and move on.

This is super-OCD, but if I'm being honest (and when am I not?), I don't like that people automatically assume the heaviest plates belong on the racks closest to the floor, when said racks are attached to a machine with bars at chest-height. 

The heaviest plates should be stored on the rack closest to whatever height the bar is. The farther you get from the bars, the lower the weight on the rack should be. It just makes sense. Loading and re-racking plates shouldn't be as much of a workout as actually doing the exercises.

And another thing - if you use plates you got from across the room, return the weights there. Don't leave them all racked-and-stacked within three feet of the machine you used. You know that's not where they belong. Don't pretend you don't notice the completely bare rack as you walk by it, when you know you were the one who took all the plates off it and left them on the other side of the gym.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

What I need to do is find this gym doc goes to and just start walking random weights to and from random racks and/or machines. He doesn't know me and I don't know him but I just gotta watch for the guy about to blow his top.


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## Brackish (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> See? Now you got me started...
> 
> The guys on their phone - no mercy. I walk right up, stand with my groin uncomfortably close to their face, and ask if I can work in. Amazing how often they decide they're actually done, and move on.


I hate the people who feel like they own the gym. You know, the ones who come and violate people's personal space because they feel entitled to use a particular piece of equipment at a particular time. Toolbags, the lot of 'em.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Watches n weights...









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Light weight.









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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Tikuda Tuesday


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## yom (Jul 23, 2021)

Still enjoying the Näcken.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tikuda?

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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Tikuda?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Sigh, this is the "WUS" equivalent to putting all the heavy weights on the lowest peg on the rack furtherest from the machine....

He's already gotten a Doc nibble.

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Tikuda?


I wasn't quoted here.... was someone else? Perhaps someone on my ignore list? 










Red PeeKay said:


> He's already gotten a Doc nibble.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scorpène.









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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> The other thing I feel in your post is a kid tying up a machine for a half hour. Drives. Me. Bonkers. If you are taking 30 minutes I expect you to pump out one of those crazy online instructor 10 set workouts that nobody irl actually does at a normal gym. That never happens. Ever.


I did lower body today in the gym. I come in early, like 6:30 early, but still I often find the only three squat racks occupied. The gym is big, no idea how many members or how much floor space, but it's inside a shopping mall an occupies almost the entire top floor. So, big... Anyways, there's two Smith machines that are almost always unused and the proper squat racks are always busy. So when I get my turn at the rack I effin use it. I do 3 exercises with 4 sets each and it does take me a good 25 minutes or so. But I use the damn thing. No texts or calls, no insta, no posing. I got a workout tracker app, with integrated countdown. I mark a set as complete and it beeps through my headphones when it's time for the next one. It's great. I get in and out in exactly as much time as I need.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I did lower body today in the gym. I come in early, like 6:30 early, but still I often find the only three squat racks occupied. The gym is big, no idea how many members or how much floor space, but it's inside a shopping mall an occupies almost the entire top floor. So, big... Anyways, there's two Smith machines that are almost always unused and the proper squat racks are always busy. So when I get my turn at the rack I effin use it. I do 3 exercises with 4 sets each and it does take me a good 25 minutes or so. But I use the damn thing. No texts or calls, no insta, no posing. I got a workout tracker app, with integrated countdown. I mark a set as complete and it beeps through my headphones when it's time for the next one. It's great. I get in and out in exactly as much time as I need.


Big difference in 4 different exercises in 25 minutes vs what we were discussing. I was talking about kids that take that long (ir longer) to do 4 sets of ONE exercise


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

@docvail 

Any update on a foray into $1k+ watches?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> @docvail
> 
> Any update on a foray into $1k+ watches?


Nope.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting Amphion Commando w/ Kiger Red Ronin bezel mod up on eBay...









NTH Amphion Commando w/Date Automatic Diver 40mm Kiger Red Ronin Bezel Insert | eBay


Does not have original steel insert. In great shape. The bezel fits well to the case without play in vertical and horizontal directions, all around the case. Bezel rotates smoothly and evenly with no surprises.



www.ebay.com


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Interesting Amphion Commando w/ Kiger Red Ronin bezel mod up on eBay...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thar looks OE level match, someone snag it!


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Big difference in 4 different exercises in 25 minutes vs what we were discussing. I was talking about kids that take that long (ir longer) to do 4 sets of ONE exercise


True that . But I still a feel a little like I am taking advantage in some way taking the coveted spot at the rack for a long time. But then I could just as well blame the gym for their crappy setup.. as long as you use the machine all is good. But I don't understand how people spend 5 minutes scrolling between sets


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Mediocre said:


> Thar looks OE level match, someone snag it!


eBay: "ends in 5d"
Employer: "pays in 15d"
Me: "yeah, _someone_ snag it."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Thar looks OE level match, someone snag it!


One of the positive by products of us (me, Rusty, and Aaron) standardizing our use of colors across models, so that the red on one Sub matches the red on another Sub, etc.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> True that . But I still a feel a little like I am taking advantage in some way taking the coveted spot at the rack for a long time. But then I could just as well blame the gym for their crappy setup.. as long as you use the machine all is good. But I don't understand how people spend 5 minutes scrolling between sets


If you're using a piece of equipment more-or-less constantly, to do multiple exercises, someone waiting might think you're monopolizing it, but tough tlttles if they do. You're actually using it, not putzing around on your phone or - I swear my head feels like it's going to explode when I see this - posing in the mirror while someone's waiting.

But, also, yes, the gym's ownership ought to be able to figure out how many of each piece of equipment they'll need based on square footage / membership. There's no excuse for only having one squat rack if there are always people waiting to use it, especially at off-peak times.

Right when I got out of the army, I briefly managed a gym with a less courteous member base. We always had problems with weights not being re-racked, and/or being left all over the room. The gym's ownership was beyond cheap, so the place didn't run very well (despite my best efforts).

One day, one of the trainers came to get me, because one of the members was pissing in his ear, and apparently piss runs uphill. So I come out of the office, and this dude kind of aggressively gets up in my face, to complain about having to retrieve weight plates from all over the room to do whatever he wanted. 

I pointed out that members weren't returning plates where they were supposed to be, as the cause of the problem, hoping he'd get the subtle message, "be the change you want to see at the gym - and re-rack your weights."

He looked at me like I just didn't get it, "if people are leaving the weights all over the room, at different machines, then that's where they go!!! You all need to buy more weights for this place!"

He wasn't entirely wrong. Did I mention the ownership was beyond cheap, and the place didn't run very well?

I quit about a week later.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

VH944 said:


> eBay: "ends in 5d"
> Employer: "pays in 15d"
> Me: "yeah, _someone_ snag it."


Ask the employer for an early payment!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Two words: home gym.

Two more words: always available.


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## bogray57 (Jan 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> I swear my head feels like it's going to explode when I see this - posing in the mirror while someone's waiting.


In the early '80's I lifted at the same gym as Randy Savage, just before he hit the Big Time. He would do a set...let's say he was bench pressing...then RUN to the mirror, pose, snarl at himself, flex, pose, snarl...the RUN back to the bench for another set. He was working the whole time, never monopolized a bench and the show was absolutely worth the wait. True story.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Mediocre said:


> Ask the employer for an early payment!


Nah, I rather go for a consumer loan so I can buy a watch that would replace one I already have. (moving to WPAC tab in browser...)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Two words: home gym.
> 
> Two more words: always available.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bogray57 said:


> In the early '80's I lifted at the same gym as Randy Savage, just before he hit the Big Time. He would do a set...let's say he was bench pressing...then RUN to the mirror, pose, snarl at himself, flex, pose, snarl...the RUN back to the bench for another set. He was working the whole time, never monopolized a bench and the show was absolutely worth the wait. True story.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Hey Doc. I think I figured out where you source your fitted rubber straps from. 
The same damn place that Horus Straps does. 

I just had a "snow" digi camo delivered for my new 300M(I didn't want a standard one color strap). It's literally the exact same f*cking strap. Same material, same overall design, just patterned. Same issue with having to fight the spring bars in as well.

Smfh.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Hey Doc. I think I figured out where you source your fitted rubber straps from.
> The same damn place that Horus Straps does.
> 
> I just had a "snow" digi camo delivered for my new 300M(I didn't want a standard one color strap). It's literally the exact same f*cking strap. Same material, same overall design, just patterned. Same issue with having to fight the spring bars in as well.
> ...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

bogray57 said:


> In the early '80's I lifted at the same gym as Randy Savage, just before he hit the Big Time. He would do a set...let's say he was bench pressing...then RUN to the mirror, pose, snarl at himself, flex, pose, snarl...the RUN back to the bench for another set. He was working the whole time, never monopolized a bench and the show was absolutely worth the wait. True story.


I used to work out in the same gym as Lou Ferrigno up in Westwood NJ. Nice guy, quiet. Just doing his thang. No one wanted to bother him in case he might get upset.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I used to work out in the same gym as Lou Ferrigno up in Westwood NJ. Nice guy, quiet. Just doing his thang. No one wanted to bother him in case he might get upset.


Did you really just describe the famously deaf guy as quiet?


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

all that Macho Man talk sent me down a youtube rabbit hole of very 80's, probably drug fueled wrestling interviews.. 

and then I remembered this


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

8505davids said:


> www.watchgecko.com - the watch itself came from them too ... maybe there was a US retailer too??
> Little bit of squeezing and a bit of faffing about to locate the spring bars but fairly painless. I had it on another watch (Aramar Walrus) and just thought I'd give it a try on the DR ... I may file a sliver off the edges of the end links eventually but it seems to sit quite nicely as is.


Woot!
















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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> all that Macho Man talk sent me down a youtube rabbit hole of very 80's, probably drug fueled wrestling interviews..
> 
> and then I remembered this


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Can't say enough good things about this Atticus Icarus.









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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Did you really just describe the famously deaf guy as quiet?


At least you got it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

@RonaldUlyssesSwanson @Mediocre

Alright, fine, stuff...

The Mack will be released soon. I gotta revisit the numbers, but a large portion of sales proceeds will go to SFC Brian Mack's surviving family. It'll be available with or without a date.

We're doing a white Thresher. Also date or no date. Released soon.

Also...wait for it...a GMT DevilRay. With date only. Late this year or early next.

Also, Watch Gauge exclusive, a new Frost Blue Näcken. Date or no date. End of year.

That's not even all we've got to reveal. Just a taste.

Boom. Chew on that, bltches.





























































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## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> @RonaldUlyssesSwanson @Mediocre
> 
> Alright, fine, stuff...
> 
> ...


I can’t believe my eyes. An NTH GMT! I guess if we ask enough, things can happen!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I can’t believe my eyes. An NTH GMT! I guess if we ask enough, things can happen!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My answer always was, as soon as Seiko or Miyota made an automatic GMT, I'd make one.

Seiko just revealed a GMT version of the NH35.

Don't anyone ever say I ain't good to my word. If I says I'll do it, I'll do it.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I'm digging the Brian Mack. The look and the cause. Good **** doc.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Diggin the Brian Mäck-en!









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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> My answer always was, as soon as Seiko or Miyota made an automatic GMT, I'd make one.
> 
> Seiko just revealed a GMT version of the NH35.
> 
> ...


Very very cool, Chris.

Ric, innit


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Nice, and more to come!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> @RonaldUlyssesSwanson @Mediocre
> 
> Alright, fine, stuff...
> 
> ...


Blue Näcken with brown bezel would look  

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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

DevilRay GMT! But then can I have two DR's in the collection.....oh the decisions I'll have to make.

Meantime it's actually sunny in Scotland, Antilles face looks awesome in this light.


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

gavindavie said:


> DevilRay GMT! But then can I have two DR's in the collection.....oh the decisions I'll have to make.
> 
> Meantime it's actually sunny in Scotland, Antilles face looks awesome in this light.
> View attachment 16630040


There appears to be ferocious haggis about to attack your watch.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Clean teeth, for a haggis.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Just when I thought I was out, you drag me back in.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More about stuff...

Being a vintage-inspired "military" watch, the Mack's font is lifted from the "Bund" Flyback Chronos from the '60's-'70's.

We wanted it to have the US Army's Colors, so the yellow and white font on black dial is the same as the Army's logo.









The brown bezel is "khaki", to approximate colors like "desert sand" or "Arizona tan" in the army's camouflage scheme.

Ordinarily, if I'm donating proceeds from sales or an auction, I'd be donating to a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, which in turn would use the funds as they see fit. But in this case, I wanted the benefit to go directly to Mack's surviving family. I spoke to my attorney and accountant, who agreed that setting up a 501(c)(3) would be cost-prohibitive.

Instead, they advised me to just pay taxes on the profits from sales, then gift money to his family, up to the annual gift tax exclusion limit (currently $16,000 per year, per recipient). I need to figure out the taxes, but my rough estimate is that half the proceeds from sales will go to his family.

There isn't much to say about the *Thresher White*. It's exactly the same color scheme as the Swiftsure White, which will be coming in the same release, probably mid- or late-June / early July. We'll have more of the other 2K1's (the same ones as before) coming later in the year.

Like I said, the new *Näcken Blue Frost* will be a Watch Gauge exclusive. It'll be available with a date at 6, or no-date. The markers are all applied, with white frames, like on the Näcken Modern Blue and Black. Same with the hands - white frames. The dial will be a light blue fade, but with that sandpaper texture we used on the vintage Näckens.

The *DevilRays* - we're planning to bring back the black (sunburst anthracite gray), white (sunburst "whilver"), and the sunburst blue. All three colorways will be available with a date at 6, no-date, or as a GMT, with date at 6. I think there will likely also be some Watch Gecko store exclusive versions, but I haven't seen them yet.

Other stuff -

*The Vanguard* will be making a return, as a Long Island Watches exclusive, and all on the BOR bracelet, with or without a date.

*Watch Gecko has four store-exclusive versions of the Subs coming soon*, featuring the thicker crystal I teased in this post, and - wait for it - aluminum bezel inserts. They're leaning hard into the vintage inspiration on these. Look for those to be revealed soon.

And yes, I'm still plugging away on the non-diver design. We're getting close to done, I think.

No, I haven't made much progress on the >$1k watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More stuff...

We have more Subs coming late this year (hopefully), or if not, early next. I'm planning the return of the Scorpène Black (the original), the Näcken Vintage White (full lume rice-paper dial), and the Amphion Vintage Gilt (basically the Barracuda Vintage Black, except with sword hands, and a fully indexed bezel).


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> No, I haven't made much progress on the >$1k watch


Hint taken, I'll stop asking 


Really liking some of the new stuff, and excited to see the exclusive Watch Gecko stuff!

If the Brian Mack is not sold out by the time I get relocated and settled, I'm all over that. Brilliant watch, great cause. How do you beat that?!?!


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Diggin that white Thresher. There’s just something about a sweeping second hand with a colored tip that I love.


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

docvail said:


> ...then gift money to his [Mack's] family...


Hey Doc - Any way we can chip in some extra for Mack's family?


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> My answer always was, as soon as Seiko or Miyota made an automatic GMT, I'd make one.
> 
> Seiko just revealed a GMT version of the NH35.
> 
> ...


Can you elaborate on that movement? I can't seem to find any information on it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> Can you elaborate on that movement? I can't seem to find any information on it.


It's brand new.

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> Hey Doc - Any way we can chip in some extra for Mack's family?


Lemme get back to you, brother.

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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Horoticus said:


> Hey Doc - Any way we can chip in some extra for Mack's family?


Great question sir. Even if I'm not I'm a position to buy when it launches, I can put some funds to a good cause.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

In before "It's not a _true _GMT because blah, blah, blah . . . "


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

That second triangle at 30 on the Mack bezel is sheer genius! It makes the bezel both count-up and count-down!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm really glad to see the 12hr bezel staying 12hr on the GMT DR, and niot a switch to 24hr, because "GMT."

I don't think it's been established yet that the Seiko GMT is either caller or traveller function? I'm amazed that it will be offered as a movement so close to release.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I'm really glad to see the 12hr bezel staying 12hr on the GMT DR, and niot a switch to 24hr, because "GMT."
> 
> I don't think it's been established yet that the Seiko GMT is either caller or traveller function? I'm amazed that it will be offered as a movement so close to release.


I honestly don't know the difference, but if it helps - the hour and minute hand work as normal. The GMT hand is independently adjustable, by turning the crown clockwise in the date-setting position. I suspect they converted the day-of-the-week function to the GMT, much like the ETA 2836-2 GMT conversions.

The bezel doesn't need to be 24 hours when there are 24 hours on the dial. The intent is to use the GMT hand to track UTC time, the hour hand to track home time, and the bezel to track local time (or, you could do the opposite, and use the hour hand to track local time, and the bezel to track home time).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> That second triangle at 30 on the Mack bezel is sheer genius! It makes the bezel both count-up and count-down!


Correct.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Is there a timeline for the Mack release?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Is there a timeline for the Mack release?


Working on it. Soon.

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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

@TheBearded


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> @TheBearded
> 
> View attachment 16633267


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Mediocre said:


> Thar looks OE level match, someone snag it!


it is pretty Bad Ass!
I have been wanting to change up my Amphion Vintage Gilt, but i understand there were only 50 date and 50 no date made? if so then its too rare to mess with i think.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> it is pretty Bad Ass!
> I have been wanting to change up my Amphion Vintage Gilt, but i understand there were only 50 date and 50 no date made? if so then its too rare to mess with i think.


There were, but we're making more.

We made even less of the Commando.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> There were, but we're making more.
> 
> We made even less of the Commando.


Nice!! its my favorite model ! I do think id like to see my AVG with the red triangle bezel from the Barracuda vintage (the one that has the same gilt dial as the AVG). that might look pretty cool.

Also Chris, I hate when the gym is packed too! I go to the YMCA weight room down here in Ridley. its usually pretty empty at lunch time when i go. so if youre ever in the Ridley hood, drop me a line, ill give you a spot!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> Can you elaborate on that movement? I can't seem to find any information on it.


I wasn't being snarky earlier. I'm not sure what info you want.

It's a GMT version of the NH35, called the NH34. Like I said above, the GMT hand is independently set-able, via the date position on the crown, leading me to believe that the GMT function is a day-of-the-week conversion.

The GMT hand is at the bottom of the hand-stack, so in designs like the DevilRay, which has applied markers, the GMT hand needs to be short enough to sweep within them, basically no longer than the main hour hand.

I assume it comes as a with-date only, so there's no way to make a no-date version without the ghost-date position on the crown.

Dimensions are roughly the same as the NH35, except with a slightly taller hand-stack. We had enough clearance in the DevilRay's design that we don't need to re-design the case.

We debated making the bezel a 24-hour instead of a 12 hour, but opted not to, for a few reasons:

1. The bezels will still be 120-click unidirectional, not bi-directional, as with most GMT's, so, primarily a dive bezel, first and foremost.

2. The convention of having a rotating 24 hour bezel was necessary on the original Rolex GMT because the GMT hand was slaved to the hour hand, not independently set-able. The rotating 24 hour hand was necessary to track GMT or any other time zone.

3. Once you have an independent GMT hand, and you put the GMT hours on the dial, having a rotating 24 hour bezel becomes somewhat redundant and unnecessary. If you're using the bezel to track a third time zone, you can do that using the hour hand and the 12 hour scale.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> Nice!! its my favorite model ! I do think id like to see my AVG with the red triangle bezel from the Barracuda vintage (the one that has the same gilt dial as the AVG). that might look pretty cool.
> 
> Also Chris, I hate when the gym is packed too! I go to the YMCA weight room down here in Ridley. its usually pretty empty at lunch time when i go. so if youre ever in the Ridley hood, drop me a line, ill give you a spot!


I'm sure someone has done that mod, replacing the Amphion's bezel with the one from the Barracuda.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I wasn't being snarky earlier. I'm not sure what info you want.
> 
> It's a GMT version of the NH35, called the NH34. Like I said above, the GMT hand is independently set-able, via the date position on the crown, leading me to believe that the GMT function is a day-of-the-week conversion.
> 
> ...


Just curious - from where did you get the movement spec, mainly regarding setting the GMT hand as probably a mod of the missing day function? Makes sense, but people sure were hoping it would be an independently adjustable hour hand ("true," traveler GMT function), instead, like with the movements in the new-ish Presage Sharp Edge series of GMTs. 

Seems to me the 24hr bezel has become de-facto because of lazy design/lack of thought, and the undeniable popularity of the Rolex GMT Master II. To me, it makes a lot of sense, if the GMT hand is long enough to hit at least the minute track, if not nearly graze the rehaut. And I really wish that such designs would include a 24hr scale printed on the dial or chapter ring/rehaut, too. 

What I absolutely don't get is designs where the GMT hand is shorter, with a printed 24hr scale on the inside of the hour indexes, and then a 24hr bezel. Here's one example:









The GMT hand, or disk in this case, points to a 24 hr scale. Then regular 12hr and min/sec scales for the other three hands. And then the 24hr bezel. To me, that makes no sense. Better that it was a 12hr bezel to better match the closer scale, the 12hr/3-hand indexes, closest to it. 

And there are just way too many companies making a GMT function watch with a 120 click, uni-directional, 24hr bezel. Which just bugs me, for some reason. A lazy, cost-concession for a company making their diver into a GMT. At least a 12hr bezel isn't even pretending...

Bottom line: Devil Ray GMT gets it right, where many others fail.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Just curious - from where did you get the movement spec, mainly regarding setting the GMT hand as probably a mod of the missing day function?


From the early-peek info Seiko put out:

"3 hands with Date + GMT hand in center. Quick GMT hand correction => Crown at first position - Clockwise: Quick GMT hand correction / Counterclockwise: Quick date correction."

I think that's the same basic operation of the ETA 2836-2 day/date to GMT mod - the crown position for changing the day/date is used for the GMT. One direction to change the date, the other to adjust the GMT hand.



mconlonx said:


> Makes sense, but people sure were hoping it would be an independently adjustable hour hand ("true," traveler GMT function), instead, like with the movements in the new-ish Presage Sharp Edge series of GMTs.


I think I understand the appeal for travelers, but maybe I don't really "get it", and someone needs to explain it to me. A GMT watch is primarily a watch, first and foremost. I think for everyday use, an independently set-able GMT hand makes more sense than an independently set-able hour hand, but maybe that's just me, or maybe I'm wrong.

Before I made the call on the bezel markings, I talked to our own @dmjonez about it, since he's an international pilot and GMT geek. One of the takeaways from our discussion was that if you set the GMT hand to UTC time, and use the main hour hand to track home time, then, when you arrive in a new time zone, you don't need to adjust either hand. You can just spin the bezel to track local time, which is why a 12 hour bezel is fine.

In that use-case, you're not adjusting the time, so there's no need to think about hacking the watch when adjusting either hand, which is something some people think about, apparently.

Not that I've made a huge project out of GMT debating, but when I've looked at this in the past, and thought about it, the day-date GMT conversion with independent GMT hand has always seemed to make more sense to me than an independent hour hand.

When looking at the Rolex GMT, the main advantage seems to be the way the date can be rolled backwards, if need be, rather than there being a major functional advantage in having the hour hand independent, rather than the GMT. Though I vaguely recall some argument in favor of the "jumps-an-hour-at-a-time" advancement of one or the other hands, the real advantage of which seems debatable, more a nice-to-have than a need-to-have.



mconlonx said:


> Seems to me the 24hr bezel has become de-facto because of lazy design/lack of thought, and the undeniable popularity of the Rolex GMT Master II. To me, it makes a lot of sense, if the GMT hand is long enough to hit at least the minute track, if not nearly graze the rehaut. And I really wish that such designs would include a 24hr scale printed on the dial or chapter ring/rehaut, too.
> 
> What I absolutely don't get is designs where the GMT hand is shorter, with a printed 24hr scale on the inside of the hour indexes, and then a 24hr bezel. Here's one example:
> View attachment 16634482
> ...


Uhm...yes?

Also - I think Dave has that exact Alpina.

Like I said, the 24 hour bezel on a GMT seems to have become a convention of design which doesn't necessarily make sense with modern GMT movements, where the GMT or hour hand is independently set-able, and the GMT hours can be printed on the dial.

It was necessary on the original Rolex GMT because the GMT hand was slaved to the hour hand, which also made putting 24 hours on the dial a non-starter. The GMT scale had to be on the bezel, and it had to be rotating, otherwise, you wouldn't be able to track UTC, or any other time zone at will.

With one or the other hand being independent, you don't really need any bezel at all, and if you have one, it doesn't necessarily need to rotate. You can already track two time zones, just with the dial, or with a fixed bezel (with 24 hours on it).

Making the bezel rotating gives you the ability to track a third time zone, but you don't necessarily need the markings to be 24 hours. Again, going back to my discussion with pilot Dave, we discussed his habits while crossing time zones.

If he's in Nigeria, he knows he's 7 hours ahead of his home port in Atlanta. He can tell if the sun is up or down where he's staying, so he knows it's AM or PM where he is, and basic / automatic math tells him if it's AM or PM back home. He doesn't need 24 hours on the bezel, whether he's using it to track local or home time. You really only need 24 hours on the dial, for that GMT hand, which is probably going to be set to UTC, once, and never reset, if you're a pilot or anyone else who needs to track UTC.

And, yes, when debating this internally, I thought about the distance between the GMT hand and the 12 hour bezel. On the one hand, the distance between them made it seem stupid to add 24 hours to the bezel.

But on the other hand, we're already proposing the use of the 12 hour bezel to track another time zone, using the main hour hand, which is basically the same length as the GMT hand, so...maybe stupid is as GMT does, or something.

I think the way we did it is "correct". As Dave pointed out, if you ONLY have 24 hours on the bezel, and the bezel rotates, then, as soon as you turn the bezel, you're no longer tracking UTC, if the hand & bezel were aligned to UTC. If you don't have the GMT hours on the dial, and ONLY have them on the bezel, the functionality is effectively reduced to tracking only two time zones, not three, and the combination of rotating bezel and set-able GMT hand is just redundant functionality.

If you have the GMT hours on the dial, then, it really doesn't matter if the bezel is 12 hours or 24 hours, though I think 12 hours makes as much sense (if not more), from a functional standpoint, and more sense from a design standpoint, inasmuch as it keeps the bezel from being overly cluttered.

Personally, I like Dave's method - set the GMT hand to UTC, and leave it alone forever. Use the hour hand with either the dial or the bezel to track home or local time, as you see fit (home is on the dial, or the bezel, and local is whichever you're not using to track home time). With 12 hours on the bezel, time-telling requires no mental conversion from military time to standard time. 7 o'clock is just 7 o'clock, be it AM or PM, not "0700" or "1900".

Edit to add - sort of lost my train of thought, vis-a-vis which hand is set-able, and watch geeks getting their shorts in a twist about it. 

Dave's an international pilot. For him, the Seiko's GMT functionality with 12 on the bezel is more than fine, using the watch the way he would, with the GMT hand set to UTC, the hour hand set to home time, and spinning the bezel to track local time, negating the need to adjust either hand, ever, when arriving in a new time zone (so who cares which hand is independent?).

If he says it's fine, the GMT geeks need to get over it, I think, and just make do with having to adjust the date, sometimes, which still doesn't hack the movement, thereby putting a stop to the arguments about how adjusting one or the other hand would or would not hack the movement, and which would be better (assuming I understand that aspect of the debate, and that's what's being argued).

TL;DR - purists can be upset. Doesn't change anything.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> From the early-peek info Seiko put out:
> 
> "3 hands with Date + GMT hand in center. Quick GMT hand correction => Crown at first position - Clockwise: Quick GMT hand correction / Counterclockwise: Quick date correction."
> 
> ...


From participating in way too many GMT threads, I think there's a tendency to overthink it all, and beyond that, some need to justify the way a Rolex GMT Master II functions.

The popular conceit about a "true"/travelers GMT is that when you are on the move, across time zones, you can simply jump the hour hand forward or back, leaving the GMT hand pointed at home time, for the duration. And then, should one need to track a _third_ time zone, move the 24hr bezel as needed.

But Dave (from whom I just purchased a quartz Ronda-based LIP GMT...) is correct in actual usage of a GMT watch for - wait for it... - tracking GMT/UTC time. Where pilots and aviation are concerned.

Watch geeks gotta nerd out, however, and a movement with an independently adjustable hour hand (rather than GMT hand) being rarer, found in more expensive watches, such function has to be better... I mean RIGHT?!? Of course not. Just different. If you're fiddling with your watch to change any time at all, you're fiddling with your watch. Whether it's to adjust the hour hand or GMT hand... or twist a bezel.

And yeah, when you really get into it, WUS seem to hate to be reminded that the original GMT watch was a Glycine 24hr watch with a 24hr bezel. Followed by the Rolex GMT Master 1, which had a non-adjustable 24hr GMT hand slaved to the hour hand, and a 24hr bezel. Most of the 70s GMTs were based on the same function - Zodiac, Longines, Seiko 6117 watches... Then there's Vostok doing such old skool GMTs, with their 2426 movement.











TL;DR - Devil Ray GMT design looks legit.

I'm just surprised Seiko is releasing a new movement like this, so soon, for use by companies out of house.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Non GMT










Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Saswatch (Dec 23, 2020)

mconlonx said:


> Seems to me the 24hr bezel has become de-facto because of lazy design/lack of thought, and the undeniable popularity of the Rolex GMT Master II. To me, it makes a lot of sense, if the GMT hand is long enough to hit at least the minute track, if not nearly graze the rehaut. And I really wish that such designs would include a 24hr scale printed on the dial or chapter ring/rehaut, too.
> 
> What I absolutely don't get is designs where the GMT hand is shorter, with a printed 24hr scale on the inside of the hour indexes, and then a 24hr bezel. Here's one example:
> View attachment 16634482
> ...


I have one. The inner disk is recessed which gives this watch an understated GMT look. The local hour hand is a jump hour.

The 24 hour inner bezel though would’ve looked better fixed because the 8 to 16 is facing outwards while the 2 to 24 are inwards.


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> Then there's Vostok doing such old skool GMTs, with their 2426 movement.


yup,old skule works









of course, even simpler if you only want two time zones is a 24h watch with a rotating 24h bezel (or a 12h with rotating 12h bezel)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> From participating in way too many GMT threads, I think there's a tendency to overthink it all, and beyond that, some need to justify the way a Rolex GMT Master II functions.
> 
> The popular conceit about a "true"/travelers GMT is that when you are on the move, across time zones, you can simply jump the hour hand forward or back, leaving the GMT hand pointed at home time, for the duration. And then, should one need to track a _third_ time zone, move the 24hr bezel as needed.
> 
> ...


Thinking about this more...

The Rolex GMT movement functionality does make more sense, IF (big IF) you're adjusting the main hour hand to local time when arriving in a new time zone, AND if you're concerned with accuracy down to the second.

By making the main hour hand independent (and I presume adjusting it doesn't hack the time), you're not losing accuracy for the time it takes to adjust the hour hand. The jumping-an-hour-at-a-time and backwards-rolling-date functions are just icing on that cake, I think.

But, see above, re - how an actual pilot would do it, when you have a rotating bezel available to track local time, rendering any adjustment of the time (and thus any hacking of the movement) unnecessary. If you're not adjusting either hand, in any case, then it really doesn't matter which hand is independent, or which hacks the watch while being adjusted.

Personally, I'd probably do the opposite of what Dave does. I'd use the bezel to track home time, and adjust the hour hand to local time, just because I think that would make it easier for me, knowing I'd need to know local time more often than home time, and glancing at the hour hand versus the markers on the dial is more intuitive than comparing the hour hand to the markers on the bezel. But I'm not obsessed with accuracy down to the second, so the hacking of the movement when I do that doesn't matter to me, at all.

I don't even need the GMT hand, honestly. I can't think of any scenario where I'd need to know UTC time, or need to track more than two time zones at once. A 3-hand movement and 12 hour rotating bezel will serve 99.99% of all conceivable scenarios for me, and likely for most people traveling across time zones. Dave agrees, and he's both a pilot and a mensa member, so...

But, also - if you're that obsessed with accuracy, such that losing 15 seconds while you adjust the time is a problem for you, buy a quartz watch, and stop obsessing over accuracy in a mechanical watch. GTFOH.

As for the date - how often are you crossing the international date line in reverse, such that you're arriving a day earlier than you departed? And, in that scenario, how long does it take if you have to just roll through the entire month to get to the date before? The time isn't hacked while adjusting the date. Yes, the backwards-date-adjustment feature of the Rolex is slick, and more convenient, but I'd wager the typical traveler will rarely if ever avail themselves of that feature, and it will save them all of 30 seconds when they do.

Likewise, if I'm to understand that the Rolex GMT's independent main hour hand can be rolled both back and forward, not just forward, that also is a functional advantage over the Seiko's independent GMT hand, which can only be rolled forward. Though, again, it's debatable...

If you use the GMT hand to track UTC, that never changes. Who cares if the hand can only be moved forward, if you're only setting it once? The ability to roll the hour hand back or forward without hacking the time only seems to matter if the main hour hand is independent, AND if you're adjusting it to local time while traveling. 

So you have to roll the GMT hand forward, all the way around the dial if you need to back it up, so what? How often do you need to do that? I'd argue it's once, and never again, with a design like ours.

Dave's not adjusting the hour hand when he travels, anyway, because he'd use the bezel for local time. But if you are adjusting the time, like I'd be, you can still roll the main hour hand forward or backward as desired (albeit, with the watch hacked). It's only the GMT hand that can only be rolled forward, not backward. But, if you're using it to track UTC, you wouldn't be adjusting that hand anyway (and not hacking the watch when you do adjust it). If you're obsessed with accuracy, fine, wait until you can check the atomic clock, and re-sync the seconds hand. 

I think the rotating bezel really negates a lot of the arguments in favor of the independent hour hand vs independent GMT hand. And if the GMT hours are on the dial, the bezel can be 12 or 24 hours. It doesn't matter, but again, I think 12 hours is more intuitive, and certainly less cluttered.

Get the watch, set the GMT to UTC time, and forget about it. Hack the watch to set the hour/minute, and sync with the atomic clock if you're obsessed with accuracy. When you get to a new time zone, either A) spin the bezel to align the hour hand to local time, if you don't feel like adjusting the time and/or don't want to hack the watch, or B) adjust the main hour hand, and don't obsess over accuracy, or wait until the atomic clock catches up to your hacked seconds hand - it will take 59 seconds, at most. Not enough time lost to get your shorts in a knot over it.

Seriously, these GMT geeks are way over-thinking all this.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saswatch said:


> I have one. The inner disk is recessed which gives this watch an understated GMT look. The local hour hand is a jump hour.
> 
> The 24 hour inner bezel though would’ve looked better fixed because the 8 to 16 is facing outwards while the 2 to 24 are inwards.


That's a design fail. The hours should all be oriented with bottom-towards-center, if the bezel rotates. I think the whole design is kinda iffy. The inner disk is cool, but they should have added some numbers around it, especially as the main indices are just batons. 

Most people don't need numbers when reading the time in 12 hour format, because we're used to that convention. But when you are using 24 hour time, and the 12 is at the bottom of the dial, it's much less intuitive for most people, such that adding some numbers in there helps, a lot.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

So I have a question about the GMT. 

Why isn't it bronze? 
And Swiss?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> So I have a question about the GMT.
> 
> Why isn't it bronze?
> And Swiss?
> ...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I have nothing to add.
signed,
Dave

Bonus watch photos:


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> As for the date - how often are you crossing the international date line in reverse, such that you're arriving a day earlier than you departed?


Since the covid pandemic not often (well, not at all) but between 2012 and 2020, 5 or 6 times a year! Even flying the other direction I would arrive in LAX 5 hours before I left Sydney so if an early morning flight was available I could have doubled those numbers


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

PS @mconlonx owns the LIP now, as he mentioned. Hard to let go, great watch, but got replaced with this:









Sunrise over Ireland:









PS @AardnoldArrdvark see you Thursday...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Couple of interesting listings on eBay...

One of 75 Nazario Sauro, including a color-matched NATO (which, if I'm reading the listing correctly, glows in the dark), and a fitted rubber strap. It looks like one of our straps, but isn't (different buckle, and I don't know what kind of rubber it is, but it probably isn't Viton).









NTH Nazario Sauro watch with rubber strap and full glow color matched nato | eBay


Up for sale is my NTH Nazario Sauro full kit with rubber strap and color matched full glow Apollo nato strap. Watch is in pristine condition.



www.ebay.com





One of 25 v.1 "Whilver" no-date DevilRays, with the 5-link bracelet and ratcheting clasp, STP movement, and mint-green lume. Looks to be in very good, if not excellent condition, considering it was likely sold in 2018 - NTH DevilRay Silver Automatic 500m Diver 43mm Stainless Steel Date Silver Dial | eBay

One caveat with that DR - the box sleeve in the last pic is from a v.2 DR, with the Seiko movement. The first few pics of the watch make it clear it is a v.1, with the v.1 bracelet and minty green lume. But in the pic showing the box, I can't tell for sure, but it looks like the v.1 bracelet on a v.2 DR, with white lume. If you buy that watch, make sure the seller doesn't do a bait-and-switch on you, shipping you the v.2 on a v.1 bracelet. The v.2 can actually be purchased for less than the asking price on this v.1.

This is DEFINITELY the v.1, without a doubt in my mind. The lume color is a dead giveaway:









But this makes my spidey-sense tingle:


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

dmjonez said:


> PS @AardnoldArrdvark see you Thursday...


looking forward to it; safe trip


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> Since the covid pandemic not often (well, not at all) but between 2012 and 2020, 5 or 6 times a year! Even flying the other direction I would arrive in LAX 5 hours before I left Sydney so if an early morning flight was available I could have doubled those numbers


Fair enough, but how many travelers would cross the date line as often as you, going "backwards" in time, such that they'd need to roll the date backwards? Seems like that wouldn't be very common for most people.

And, to the extent it happens, like I said, rolling the date forward, through all the numbers, to get to the date before, takes, what, 30 seconds? It's not a huge time-suck. We should all be thankful the date is quick-set, unlike some Vostoks. Oh, the horrors...

The more I think about it, the more the whole which-hand-is-independent debate seems kind of silly. Even if you're Dave, and use the GMT hand to track UTC time, if you're not keeping the watch running all the time, then it would eventually stop, and you'd need to reset all the hands anyway, which would render the whole debate pointless, I think, to the extent the non-hacking-independent-hour-hand is a major element within that debate. 

If the non-hacking hour hand is important, for accuracy-tracking, letting the watch run down to a stop defeats the purpose. And if hacking-for-the-sake-of-tracking-accuracy (after you reset all the hands) is important enough for you to argue about it, I imagine your OCD is going to compel you to re-hack the movement and re-sync the time to the atomic clock anyway, at least once during your trip.

If the watch is stopped, then, once you re-set all the hands, as you're about to set out travelling, then I think the way Dave does it, using the bezel to track local time, makes the debate merely tedious. You really have to be dead-set on arguing the inconvenience of having to hack the time while setting the main hour hand for the "which-hand-is-independent" question to matter. And, there again, just buy a quartz GMT and be done with the debate.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> There were, but we're making more.
> 
> We made even less of the Commando.


Commando = 60 total - 30 date / 30 no-date.

We still have 20 of each dial left, so we'll probably have them assembled for a release sometime next year.

We've got 50 (25/25) of the Amphion Vintage Gilt teed up for late this year / early next, and depending on how things go, the other 50 six-to-twelve months later.


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> Fair enough, but how many travelers would cross the date line as often as you, going "backwards" in time, such that they'd need to roll the date backwards? Seems like that wouldn't be very common for most people.


I agree it wouldn't be a huge number doing it but at the time VIrgin Australia, Qantas, Delta, United and American were all operating multiple direct flights daily between SYD and LAX so it's probably a larger number than many people would assume.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> I agree it wouldn't be a huge number doing it but at the time VIrgin Australia, Qantas, Delta, United and American were all operating multiple direct flights daily between SYD and LAX so it's probably a larger number than many people would assume.


Damned Aussies...

Seriously, I hadn't thought about the Oz to US travelers. For that matter, I suppose there could be a lot of people going from Asia to the US, so maybe it's a lot more than I thought. When I was thinking about it, I was thinking about people going to out-of-the-way tiny places in the Pacific, like Guam.

I mean...who the hell goes to Guam? 

Still, my point remains - the backwards-rolling date is a slick feature in the Rolex. But it saves 30 seconds compared to rolling through a month of dates. Kind of hard for me to even think about, much less get upset about it, or get into a heated debate over it.

The DevilRay will be about 1/40th the price of a new Rolex GMT, or ~2.5% of what the Rolex costs. For 97.5% savings, I can manage the less-convenient forward-only date change, and put up with having to re-sync the seconds if I adjust the time on arrival.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Before any OCD types mention it - I realize Guam is on the Asia side of the IDL, and probably lots of people go there. It's just the first place that popped into my head when I thought of infrequently-visited and small places in the Pacific Ocean.

Fine, OCD types - Midway Island. It's on the US side of the IDL, and I bet no one here knows anyone who goes there. It's the deserted truck stop of Pacific Islands. It's literally just an airstrip and a handful of buildings, with a population of - wait for it - FORTY PEOPLE.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Goddam I wish I lived on Midway Island...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Goddam I wish I lived on Midway Island...


Well... Better than Philly I s'pose.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Well... Better than Philly I s'pose.
> 
> View attachment 16635518


Hunnerd percent.

I would move to Mars, tomorrow, if it was an option. 

And if I could get Uber eats to deliver there.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Hunnerd percent.
> 
> I would move to Mars, tomorrow, if it was an option.
> 
> And if I could get Uber eats to deliver there.


See that's the rub with any move... 
No delivery? No thanks


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> See that's the rub with any move...
> No delivery? No thanks


For reals though...I fantasize about moving to some very sparsely-populated place, but then I think about the inconvenience of having to drive an hour to get groceries or eat in a restaurant, or - gasp - doing all my own cooking.

I basically want all the convenience of living in a well-developed society, but without the nuisance of all the people who actually make up that society. 

Earlier today, we got an email from a guy asking when the watch he ordered late in the day on Friday (one business day ago) would ship, and another one from @RotorRonin asking me for the original Pantone color on the v.1 Nacken Modern Blue.

I mean...people, this is the stuff they do to me. It's only Monday. Who knows what fresh hell tomorrow will bring?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_Time_Zone




Sigh…

Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> ...and another one from @RotorRonin asking me for the original Pantone color on the v.1 Nacken Modern Blue.
> 
> I mean...people, this is the stuff they do to me. It's only Monday. Who knows what fresh hell tomorrow will bring?


Yeah that was me. I did that. 

Also, Doc linked me to where he'd already posted it. In this thread. 

Yeah, I was that guy. Sorry doc!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_Time_Zone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good news, Newfies - we're making the bezel 12 hours, not 24.

With 120 clicks, each hour is 10 clicks. Want to off-set by half an hour? Easy-peasy. Five clicks.

Try doing that with a 24-hour bezel, with 120 clicks. Every hour is 5 clicks. No way to offset by exactly half an hour, since 5 clicks can't be divided evenly.

NEWFOUNDLAND: "Couldn't you make it with half-clicks?"

ME:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Yeah that was me. I did that.
> 
> Also, Doc linked me to where he'd already posted it. In this thread.
> 
> Yeah, I was that guy. Sorry doc!


Just sayin'...the thread is only 12,5XX posts long. How hard is it to keep up, and bookmark those important posts with info you're going to want to reference at some point?

Or, for real, just use the search thread feature, like I did. It ain't like we mention Pantone colors in more than 10% of the posts. My search for "Pantone" in this thread only turned up 36 results, and only half of those were from me.

Sometimes even I'm not sure when I'm being sarcastic...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> My search for "Pantone" in this thread only turned up 36 results, and only half of those were from me.


This makes me want to sign off every new post I make in this thread with Pantone.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> This makes me want to sign off every new post I make in this thread with Pantone.


"Pantone" - now 39 results.

"Rant" - 53 results.

"Chrono" - 63 results.

"Titanium" - 80 results.

"Bronze" - 83 results.

"Stainless" - 127 results.

"GMT" - 244 RESULTS!!!

I swear, if you made me bet which of the above terms would show up in this thread the most, I'd have lost all my money putting it on "rant".

And that's why I only gamble when I play poker.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

"WOT" - 116 results.

Now 117


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I spend half my life at work on boats, all official logs are recorded in UTC, the ships time changes to local time each time we move through a time zone, and the majority of work we get is outside of the UK so there will be at least 1 hour time difference to my home time. 
I want to be able to tell what the ships time is so I don't miss my dinner, what my home time is so I don't call home in the middle of the night (and get a bollocking) and what UTC time is so I know the ships logs are correct. 
So I'm looking forward to my DevilRay GMT, though I'll have to try and be consistent with which time is set where so I don't get yelled at for walking up my wife at 5am ..... again

And here's a watch and a coffee (no haggis, clean teeth or otherwise)


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_Time_Zone
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nepal and the Chatham Islands would like a word:









Unusual Time Zones


Not every time zone is based on an hour offset. There are 30 and 45 minute offsets in addition to the normal hour offset. Learn why this came to be.



www.worldtimeserver.com






I really enjoyed the GMT geek-out over the last few pages, and I hate to be that guy, but this seems to be the best source for info on that new NH movement, and the modder in me just has to know.. Whats the diameter of the GMT hand hole?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Todaro Tuesday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> Well... Better than Philly I s'pose.
> 
> View attachment 16635518


One and only counterpoint - cheese steak sandwiches. Mmmmm


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

docvail said:


> I basically want all the convenience of living in a well-developed society, but without the nuisance of all the people who actually make up that society.


This is why I like small town life. And even here, we retreat to the mountains on a regular basis. Scratch that - we climb, not retreat.



docvail said:


> I mean...people, this is the stuff they do to me. It's only Monday. Who knows what fresh hell tomorrow will bring?


This; this is my point of hesitation about several ideas for second careers. Dealing with just anyone who walks in off the street. 



docvail said:


> NEWFOUNDLAND: "Couldn't you make it with half-clicks?"
> 
> ME:


Thank you sir. That's going to have me chuckling to myself all day.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

TempusHertz said:


> One and only counterpoint - cheese steak sandwiches. Mmmmm


With whiz.

Edit for @docvail
I forgot. 
Pantone.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I started to go off on a rant about "GMT watches" and then stopped and started a half-dozen times before I came up with this:

Doc did a LOT of research in order to develop a useful watch. Trust me. 
WIS that insist on putting all GMT watches into just two types are completely off-base. There are over a dozen different movement types that serve as "GMT" watches. For you Newfies, the Ronda quartz movement has an infinitely adjustable GMT hand. It doesn't jump, it just goes where you put it, so it can display a 30 minute variation. And older Omega quartz movements have a jumping hour hand, with which you can jump the hour forward and backward and the date will follow. It's annoying on March 1st, because you need to go all the way around-the-horn to adjust the date. And for the record, the original Rolex GMT master did NOT have an adjustable GMT hand. It was tied to the regular hour hand, and GMT was displayed by moving the bezel. Hence the origin of the 24 hour bezel.

So, here's my conclusion: don't ever buy a GMT watch based on someone's labels. Find one that has the capability you can use, and get that one. And we ought to quit calling them GMT watches, as virtually NO ONE sets GMT on them (except me). And for the record, it's not GMT anymore, it's UTC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Mean_Time

Whew. I feel better.


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

Rock on with your bad self, dmjonez. 

Oh, and bronze. Bronze, bronze, bronze, bronze.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Nepal and the Chatham Islands would like a word:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ask me after we release them.

Some of my competitors read this thread. Let them do their own legwork.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Been a week or so since I last looked in, and I see things have been busy.

Doc, question: will the new AVGs be v1 or v2? Sorry if I missed that in the discussions, but way too much WOT (118) in the last few pages for my ADHD.



docvail said:


> I'm sure someone has done that mod, replacing the Amphion's bezel with the one from the Barracuda.


I bought a BVB bezel with the intention of doing this mod on my AVG some months back, but couldn't bring myself to follow through. The bezel is still sitting on my dresser.



dmjonez said:


> Sunrise over Ireland:
> View attachment 16635374


Sometimes photos from Dave's adventures are the best part of checking in on this thread.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Been a week or so since I last looked in, and I see things have been busy.
> 
> Doc, question: will the new AVGs be v1 or v2? Sorry if I missed that in the discussions, but way too much WOT (118) in the last few pages for my ADHD.
> 
> ...


We're sticking with the v.2 Subs case. All new Subs releases will be v.2's for the foreseeable future.

I wouldn't rule out the return of the v.1 case at some point, but right now, since we made the v.1's from 2016 to 2021, and since I don't see a big clamoring for a return to the v.1 or a lot of complaints about the v.2, I don't see why we'd revert now, as that would likely cause a lot of confusion, and require a lot of extra communication from me / my team.

We made the v.1's for five years. Let's let the v.2's run a little before we rein them in.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> We're sticking with the v.2 Subs case. All new Subs releases will be v.2's for the foreseeable future.
> 
> I wouldn't rule out the return of the v.1 case at some point, but right now, since we made the v.1's from 2016 to 2021, and since I don't see a big clamoring for a return to the v.1 or a lot of complaints about the v.2, I don't see why we'd revert now, as that would likely cause a lot of confusion, and require a lot of extra communication from me / my team.
> 
> We made the v.1's for five years. Let's let the v.2's run a little before we rein them in.


That's fine by me. I love my AVG v1, but I've been waiting for a while to get a v2 to keep it company.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

A question that came up from an admirer of my Antilles today
How is the water resistance constructed mechanically: is the mechanism sealed, aside from an o-ring at the screw-down crown (if any)?
I don't expect me to set the time or date at 200m depth, but I might want to turn the bezel when the crown is speckled with droplets (timing the shower, the rain, the swimming stint). Good idea, bad idea?
I myself haven't thought about this, I can imagine that turning the crown is hard with wet fingers - I use my palm to turn the external bezel of my other diver.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> ...I mean...people, this is the stuff they do to me. *It's only Monday. Who knows what fresh hell tomorrow will bring?*


Must be Tuesday...

See this? 









All those are from the same guy, who submitted the contact form of our website three times within five minutes yesterday. Already a "might be crazy" warning sign, but especially when I see the messages are all identical, including an apparent error in the last sentence, indicating he did a copy/paste:









Response:









Message sent to retailer that most likely sold the watch in question:









Response from the retailer:









Response from the customer, received today:










Reply just sent:










Just ONE of the mis-adventures I'm getting to enjoy today.

Can't wait for tomorrow...


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

Sheesh. Why isn't there a facepalm 'like?'

There really bronze should be.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> A question that came up from an admirer of my Antilles today
> How is the water resistance constructed mechanically: is the mechanism sealed, aside from an o-ring at the screw-down crown (if any)?
> I don't expect me to set the time or date at 200m depth, but I might want to turn the bezel when the crown is speckled with droplets (timing the shower, the rain, the swimming stint). Good idea, bad idea?
> I myself haven't thought about this, I can imagine that turning the crown is hard with wet fingers - I use my palm to turn the external bezel of my other diver.


First off - your Antilles has a 12 hour bezel. Please tell me you're not taking multi-hour power-showers, like my 16 year old. The two of you combined are probably causing ecological damage beyond repair.

I asked Dan what he thought, because I never thought about it, and this is the first time I've gotten this question.

There are o-ring gasket seals at the case-back and crystal. There are three seals in the crown assembly - two inside the tube, around the crown stem, and one on the inside of the crown, which seals around the mouth of the tube when the crown is screwed down.

Dan doesn't think it's a good idea, because even if the gasket seals keep water from flooding the case, you could be letting some moisture in, which gets trapped there. It might not get all the way into the case, and cause condensation (it might, it might not), but it's not doing the seals and steel parts any good being trapped in there.

I'd think the temperature difference of a hot shower or cold swim compared to ambient temp might exacerbate things, but there, I'm getting outside my area of expertise.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TempusHertz said:


> Sheesh. Why isn't there a facepalm 'like?'
> 
> There really bronze should be.


I don't get those "I'll ruin you for this" sorts of responses as often as I used to, thankfully, but I probably get 2 or 3 a year still. 

It's always semi-comical, given the circumstances, which usually involve unrealistic expectations from the customer. It really doesn't matter support we provide or what appeals to reason we make. Nothing short of complete and unqualified capitulation will satisfy these folks.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> @RonaldUlyssesSwanson @Mediocre
> 
> Alright, fine, stuff...
> 
> ...


Is it soon yet?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lume time









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Thanks for the swift response!
I hardly take showers across the IDL, no. I abuse the 12h bezel for minute timing all the time. I don't deny that I have caused other eco problems, but that specific one is on your 16-yo alone.
The gasket situation is about what I expected; also, when I screw down a water-filled crown, the pressure will force the locked-in, incompressible water to bypass either the crown gasket and/or the stem gaskets at some point.
PSA: Don't cross time zones with your Tropics when scuba diving!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Thanks for the swift response!
> I hardly take showers across the IDL, no. I abuse the 12h bezel for minute timing all the time. I don't deny that I have caused other eco problems, but that specific one is on your 16-yo alone.
> The gasket situation is about what I expected; also, when I screw down a water-filled crown, the pressure will force the locked-in, incompressible water to bypass either the crown gasket and/or the stem gaskets at some point.
> PSA: Don't cross time zones with your Tropics when scuba diving!


I'm seriously considering installing a "wrap it up" light on the wall in my sons' bathroom, with a switch in the TV room, so we can signal him when he's been in there too long, without having to get up from the couch.

The current method of walking upstairs to bang on the door is exhausting.


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

Funny the shower topic came up. I've been doing this daily for several days now.









Now, as the totally irrational bezel choice makes clear, this isn't one of Doc's excellent watches, it's the titanium Invicta which is probably the one watch most responsible for my descent into modding and junior WISdom. I was thinking about some people's opinions of showering with a dive watch, and their arguments about static vs. dynamic pressure and soaps, and how many manufacturers actually recommend soapy water to clean their luxury products (without one cautionary word regarding dynamic pressure, the fools  {/sarcasm off/}). And then I thought about motorcycle o-ring chains, and how they do quite well in direct rain at 60, 70 or more miles per hour. And how the seals in watches are better protected than the bare, exposed o-rings on those chains.

And I figured, what the heck? And took the plunge. Pardon the expression. This watch has also seen a few minutes' exposure in a hot tub.

Again, this is my build. I've had the back off several times, the movement has been swapped, and I've never done jack/squat to maintain the o-rings. Granted, this is a short term test so far, but having stood in the shower and contemplated the issue, and while I wouldn't open the crown underwater or in the shower, I have a hard time imagining a shower doing damage to a watch in any sort of reasonable condition. I didn't open it to look at the o-rings first, I just grabber 'er and hopped in the shower. What may come if I did this for months on end? Can't say. Also can't say how long I'll keep doing this to find out. But those are my current personal thoughts, observations, and blatherings.

Shower singing videos available upon request.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Only for clarity's sake...

I understood the question to be about the advisability of unscrewing the bezel crown to adjust the internal bezel while in the shower, or swimming, etc. Though I suppose the answer would be the same if it were the other crown, for the movement.

We don't recommend it. Probably nothing would happen. But why chance it?

Otherwise, if all you're doing is wearing the watch in the shower, while swimming, in the rain, without unscrewing the crown, go for it.

As for the rest - yes, most WR discussions are dumb. And the more people arguing over "dynamic" pressure, the dumber the discussion is.

The watches are pressure tested to MORE than the stated depth rating / pressure rating. You're not hitting the water that hard while jumping in or falling off a jet-ski (always seems to be the default scenario), and unless you're Aquaman, you're not swimming that fast, either on the surface or under it, to generate enough "dynamic pressure" to worry about.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TempusHertz said:


> Funny the shower topic came up. I've been doing this daily for several days now.
> 
> Shower singing videos available upon request.


You forgot to say Bronze


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

Ah yes, thank you; 'bronze.'


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm seriously considering installing a "wrap it up" light on the wall in my sons' bathroom, with a switch in the TV room, so we can signal him when he's been in there too long, without having to get up from the couch.
> 
> The current method of walking upstairs to bang on the door is exhausting.


Much too late in life my dad discovered label makers. I used to laugh my ass off while using their “spare” shower on the occasion that I was visiting. Right at eye level “PLEASE CONSERVE WATER” label… All his kids had been out of the house for at least 4-9 years when he put that label in the shower… it was the shower that 99.9999999% of the time, was only being used by him… I suspect that the damage caused to the logic centre of the father brain, from being trapped with illogical children for years….


…is permanent.

Sorry Doc.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Much too late in life my dad discovered label makers. I used to laugh my ass off while using their “spare” shower on the occasion that I was visiting. Right at eye level “PLEASE CONSERVE WATER” label… All his kids had been out of the house for at least 4-9 years when he put that label in the shower… it was the shower that 99.9999999% of the time, was only being used by him… I suspect that the damage caused to the logic centre of the father brain, from being trapped with illogical children for years….
> 
> 
> …is permanent.
> ...


Oh...the Dad skillz are strong over here.

Like my step-father could, I can tell if someone's touched the thermostat the moment I set foot in the house, and my guess on how much it was moved is never off by more than 1 degree. 

If there's a fan or a light on in someone's room, I know it before I even open the door to that room. I can smell my electric bill going up.

Our ice dispenser will give you cubes, or crushed ice, but the crushed ice always gets stuck in the spout, creating a frozen log-jam. I should get a label-maker, just to make sure no one forgets I threatened to murder the next family member who decided they needed "fancy ice".

True story - my step-father has a label on his thermostat, with clear "on pain of death" restrictions for adjustment. He and my mom are the only two people who've lived there since they moved in.

In their last house, he hung a little weight on a string from the garage ceiling, so she'd know to stop going forward when it touched her windshield, because he didn't like how close she was pulling up to the wall.

I don't know how she hasn't poisoned him already.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

You guys need to start watching the Progressive commercials. Wait until the end...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> You guys need to start watching the Progressive commercials. Wait until the end...


See them all the time. 

Totally accurate.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> You guys need to start watching the Progressive commercials. Wait until the end...


Hahahaha! 

My dad hung one of those tennis balls in every garage he ever owned… 

In his two car garage(RAV4 and a CRV!), he only hung one “on your mother’s side”… because he likes to show his über dadness by BACKING his RAV4 into the correct unloading and disembarking position.

OH god! I hope he’s ok…. 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

captainmorbid said:


> In his two car garage(RAV4 and a CRV!), he only hung one “on your mother’s side”… because he likes to show his über dadness by BACKING his RAV4 into the correct unloading and disembarking position.


Go ahead. Look me in the eye and tell me there isn't the smallest part of you that gets it. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

When I hear my dad's voice coming out of my mouth, it makes me proud. My father is one of the finest men I've ever known. He ain't perfect, but in oh so many ways he sets the bar really high. I can tell it makes him sort of uncomfortable when I tell him how proud I am to be his son, that sort of thing, but he's just gotta put up with it.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TempusHertz said:


> When I hear my dad's voice coming out of my mouth, it makes me proud.


It's even more dramatic when I hear my Dad's voice coming out of my SON'S mouth.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TempusHertz said:


> Go ahead. Look me in the eye and tell me there isn't the smallest part of you that gets it. Go ahead. I'm waiting.
> 
> When I hear my dad's voice coming out of my mouth, it makes me proud. My father is one of the finest men I've ever known. He ain't perfect, but in oh so many ways he sets the bar really high. I can tell it makes him sort of uncomfortable when I tell him how proud I am to be his son, that sort of thing, but he's just gotta put up with it.


My sister and I both are definitely descended from him. Chaotic dishwasher loading, gives both of us a twitchy eye.

He’s the best dude in my life, I’m proud to be his spawn.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OMG don't even get me started on how these people load the dishwasher...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

TempusHertz said:


> Funny the shower topic came up. I've been doing this daily for several days now.
> [picture of watch in shower]
> [...]


You've been in the shower for several DAYS? Or are you telling us you're using the shower daily since a couple of days? If the latter: good work, keep it up!



docvail said:


> [stuff I agree with]
> You're not hitting the water that hard while jumping in or falling off a jet-ski (always seems to be the default scenario) [...]


Oh man, I've never had a WR discussion involving dynamic pressure and jet-skis. Those must be popcorn material, until it's time to throw in some thermodynamics or something...
Thinking of it, I've never had a WR discussion, aside from this bezel-adjustment-in-the-pool question _somebody else _asked me.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TempusHertz said:


> Rock on with your bad self, dmjonez.
> 
> Oh, and bronze. Bronze, bronze, bronze, bronze.


Oooooo yes, With pantone.. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

TempusHertz said:


> Sheesh. Why isn't there a facepalm 'like?'
> 
> There really bronze should be.


With pantone...

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

captainmorbid said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_Time_Zone
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh…


I missed a ferry out of St John NB once, because I forgot about the time zone change crossing the border from Maine.

A GMT watch would not have helped...

We just traveled abroad. While I have three watches with 12hr bezels, two of which are NTH models..., I went all Schwartzkopf, instead, with a watch on each wrist. Left set to local time, right to home time. Worked great, and I had an excuse to wear TWO watches...

Forreal, if I were frequently traveling across the date line, or to far flung reaches of the world on the regular, I'd get a $20 Casio Royale and call it a day.

I set this one (since sold) up with an Amphion insert, but the Kiger Milsub was a real close second...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I'm aware of the BSH (it's just become too tedious to follow the threads, with dozens of "I made the jump" and "Glad you made it" posts...not my toast) - I kind of do not care about the BSH anchor, but I'd really love an "unprofessional diner" label on my "Pro Diver", or some typographic joke...
@mconlonx , where do you get your custom/one-of dials, or did you make it yourself?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

VH944 said:


> I'm aware of the BSH (it's just become too tedious to follow the threads, with dozens of "I made the jump" and "Glad you made it" posts...not my toast) - I kind of do not care about the BSH anchor, but I'd really love an "unprofessional diner" label on my "Pro Diver", or some typographic joke...
> @mconlonx , where do you get your custom/one-of dials, or did you make it yourself?


Actually bought that one with dial installed, but I had done a different build with the Bromax dial. BSH moved out of WUS to their own digs, BSH Zone.

Here's a build with a more recent dial run.










Try contacting Dial Maker for custom dials of your own design. I know San Martin can accommodate custom one-off dials in some of their models, too.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Actually bought that one with dial installed, but I had done a different build with the Bromax dial. BSH moved out of WUS to their own digs, BSH Zone.
> 
> Here's a build with a more recent dial run.
> 
> View attachment 16638320


Ah, the 14th watch built... nice. Love the pantone, shame it's not a bronze! 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> BSH moved out of WUS to their own digs, BSH Zone.


Ah, that's why I kind of forgot about them. I was reading their threads _for entertainment_, but that clearly renders me unfit to ever become one of them...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

VH944 said:


> Ah, that's why I kind of forgot about them. I was reading their threads _for entertainment_, but that clearly renders me unfit to ever become one of them...


All are welcome. Watches are secondary - sounds like you were browsing for all the right reasons. I.e bronze GMT Pantone WOT rant goats.


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

Sorry, I've been in the shower since my last post, what did I bronze miss?


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

(Today's fresh hell...)

Just a public service announcement, not trying to be a jerk...

We don't accept returns of small-value items like straps and bezel inserts, for any reason, because...wait for it...they're small-value items.

We're not making enough profit on them to deal with the emails, arranging for something to go back to our warehouse, paying for it to be re-stocked, etc.

Take your time when ordering. Any questions, we're only an email away...


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> All are welcome. Watches are secondary - sounds like you were browsing for all the right reasons. I.e bronze GMT Pantone WOT rant goats.













Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> (Today's fresh hell...)
> 
> Just a public service announcement, not trying to be a jerk...
> 
> ...


I need to return a spring bar, and I need you to refund me $0.27 and pay $6.00 for return shipping 

That's cool, right?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> OMG don't even get me started on how these people load the dishwasher...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Literally had this conversation with my oldest yesterday. 


I do not expect you to count the silverware per section of basket.....


But I _NEED_ 2 in all, except for 9 in one, to just *feel* wrong


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I need to return a spring bar, and I need you to refund me $0.27 and pay $6.00 for return shipping
> 
> That's cool, right?


You're joking, I can tell, because the numbers are ridiculous, but it does make me wonder about some folks.

Even if someone consciously puts ZERO value on MY time, don't they put ANY value on THEIR time?

If someone sends us ONE email about a return we won't accept, okay, it's one email. But when we get that second, or third email, with increasingly bizarre arguments, I know I'm dealing with a loon.

"Your bezel insert page is confusing!"

Seriously? There's literally - not figuratively - a picture showing every bezel insert on the watch it's from, along with a detailed text description. Even if you don't even look at the pictures, all the buttons on that page are labeled - IN ALL CAPS - with the model name for the insert.

We've sold at least 200 inserts since whenever we first started selling them, 2-3 years ago. Before today, I think we only ever had one other person say they ordered the wrong insert, and I'm not even sure about that, or if it was because they claimed to be "confused".

GTFOH.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Literally had this conversation with my oldest yesterday.
> 
> 
> I do not expect you to count the silverware per section of basket.....
> ...


Bruh...big / heavy glasses in the back. Small / light glasses in the front. Rack plates of the same size together. 

You can get twice as many dishes in here if you actually give a $hlt about how you put them in. Like, here, lemme show you this...alternate the orientation of the bowls, you can fit four in a row, instead of three and a big gap on the end...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Bruh...big / heavy glasses in the back. Small / light glasses in the front. Rack plates of the same size together.
> 
> You can get twice as many dishes in here if you actually give a $hlt about how you put them in. Like, here, lemme show you this...alternate the orientation of the bowls, you can fit four in a row, instead of three and a big gap on the end...


Kid loads three dishes: Like this, dad?
Dad: No! WTH?!? Like this! [dad loads the rest]
Kid: Wow, dad, you're really good at that!
Dad:
Kid:
Dad: You just totally played me, didn't you...
Kid: Hey, Kid2, you owe me $5 - I got Dad to load the dish washer for me!


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Bruh...big / heavy glasses in the back. Small / light glasses in the front. Rack plates of the same size together.
> 
> You can get twice as many dishes in here if you actually give a $hlt about how you put them in. Like, here, lemme show you this...alternate the orientation of the bowls, you can fit four in a row, instead of three and a big gap on the end...


But...but....but....

If I stack them my way I can run the dishwasher and not get half of them clean!


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> You're joking, I can tell, because the numbers are ridiculous, but it does make me wonder about some folks.
> 
> Even if someone consciously puts ZERO value on MY time, don't they put ANY value on THEIR time?
> 
> ...


Reeding is overrated.


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

mconlonx said:


> Kid loads three dishes: Like this, dad?
> Dad: No! WTH?!? Like this! [dad loads the rest]
> Kid: Wow, dad, you're really good at that!
> Dad:
> ...


Samuel Clemens would be so proud bronze.


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Kid loads three dishes: Like this, dad?
> Dad: No! WTH?!? Like this! [dad loads the rest]
> Kid: Wow, dad, you're really good at that!
> Dad:
> ...


My boy pulled that crap with me once. Funny how quickly he learned the proper way to load a dishwasher after having to do the dishes from Thanksgiving dinner in the sink with half a sponge.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

TempusHertz said:


> Sorry, I've been in the shower since my last post, what did I bronze miss?


They are knocking dishes into the washer and make the pan tone. Nice bronze tan btw.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Me: I cannot believe people get influenced to buy stuff they see on Instagram

Also me: that's a nice strap in that Instagram picture, I'll buy that










Don't know the pantone but I'm pretty sure it's not bronze


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Non GMT
> 
> View attachment 16635076
> 
> ...


Doc,
Any chance you will go back to the green tinged lume on the black & white dialed Devilray the next DR release?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

DR kinda day
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> Doc,
> Any chance you will go back to the green tinged lume on the black & white dialed Devilray the next DR release?


Haven't thought about it. Probably not. It helps to differentiate the v.1's from the v.2's.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Does the NTH BOP bracelet fit the V2 diver? Or are there two versions as well?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Does the NTH BOP bracelet fit the V2 diver? Or are there two versions as well?


Yes. All the Subs bracelets, in all their forms, will fit both the v.1 and v.2 Subs. 

There's just one version of the BOR.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Looking like an NTH weekend--if this workday ever ends.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

I don't post a lot of photos these days, but this one is almost always the one on my wrist when my Icarus is not.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

RotorRonin said:


> I don't post a lot of photos these days, but this one is almost always the one on my wrist when my Icarus is not.


Diver with a suit? Who do you think you are? James Bond? 

Ronin. RotorRonin.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> Diver with a suit? Who do you think you are? James Bond?
> 
> Ronin. RotorRonin.


"How could something so wrong make me feel so right?!" -Ye


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Blue Monday...









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Blue Monday...
> View attachment 16649752
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Yep.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> DR kinda day
> View attachment 16642875
> View attachment 16642876
> 
> ...


Holy crap that Dial!! I Love it!


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## filthyj24 (Dec 28, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> Like the bezel mod. Makes a thin Planet Ocean-type watch or adds a more vintage feeling to a modern Seamaster. Requires a crystal change also? Might as well do the second hand at that point, too.


I think I'm going to do the PO second hand swap.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

filthyj24 said:


> I think I'm going to do the PO second hand swap.


I have to give you credit that those watches are totally synced. To the second...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I have to give you credit that those watches are totally synced. To the second...


Non-COSC Japanese movements FTW!


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## filthyj24 (Dec 28, 2013)

docvail said:


> Non-COSC Japanese movements FTW!


More like extreme OCD ftw


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## rawthumb (Nov 4, 2017)




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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Mediocre Antilles day today.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Barracuda Brown getting some infrequent warm weather wear...









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Thrilled to have picked this up today. It's even better on the wrist. BoR is very comfy and the subtle but very obvious updates with the v2 case are very nice. Round of applause to the NTH team. Cheers 🍺


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JMSpivey said:


> Thrilled to have picked this up today. It's even better on the wrist. BoR is very comfy and the subtle but very obvious updates with the v2 case are very nice. Round of applause to the NTH team. Cheers 🍺
> View attachment 16652018


Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble (like, mechanical problems, not eating all the leftovers and making long-distance calls). Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There's a lot of things about me you don't know anything about, Dottie.

Things you wouldn't understand. Things you couldn't understand. Things you SHOULDN'T understand...









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You don't want to get mixed up with a guy like me.


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## filthyj24 (Dec 28, 2013)

docvail said:


> There's a lot of things about me you don't know anything about, Dottie.
> 
> Things you wouldn't understand. Things you couldn't understand. Things you SHOULDN'T understand...
> View attachment 16652135
> ...


Medulla oblongata!!!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Has anyone else noticed a change in their forum alerts, which happened within the last few days?

I used to only see alerts when someone quoted me, or tagged me in a post. Now, when I log in, I see alerts which are just telling me that someone replied to a thread I'm subscribed to. And it's not people I follow (I don't even know why I follow anyone, it doesn't seem to change the user experience at all). Any reply to any thread I'm subscribed to, from anyone, now creates an alert I see when I log in.

Anyone else, or just me?

For you "I need a visual aid" types, this is what I'm talking about:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This guy is too legit to quit..









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Marc from LIW had a guy going for over an hour yesterday.

I'd love to know what "Hope you smach on like bottom" means...


__
http://instagr.am/p/Cd8RmX-rCQi/


Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I can do this all day.

Ot at least until my wife says it's dinner time...
















Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I can do this all day.
> 
> Ot at least until my wife says it's dinner time...
> View attachment 16654344
> ...


Duck Donuts ftw!!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those wondering...

I'm not nuts (well, not certifiable). I sometimes get a little "loopy" after a long week, or just a long day, which today was. I had to get up early for a conference call with the guys from Watch Gecko in the UK, then I had to schlep up to Dan's shop (about 30 minutes away) to check out the latest delivery of 2K1 Subs. And...

Yeah, we have a problem. For some reason, they switched out the retention ring on the bezels. The new ones pop off the mid-case if you look at them funny.

Here's a side-by-side. Old ring on the left, new one on the right.









Been debating this with Rusty the last hour. Dan's telling me he's going to put a micrometer on them tomorrow, and figure out...I dunno, something. It's Dan. He'll figure out if there's a 1% difference in their metallurgy, or whatever else is going on, because he's my own personal Tony Stark.

This sort of stuff drives me up the wall. So...I had to wake up early, and then this. That's all it takes for me to go off on a "let's spend the next hour effing with the d-bag on IG" detour.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Duck Donuts ftw!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


They got Duck Donuts in TX, too? I didn't realize it was a chain.

That pic was from last year. Took Nash out for a walk, he found that on the street, picked it up, and wouldn't drop it until we got almost all the way back home.

Nash hates litter, apparently.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> They got Duck Donuts in TX, too? I didn't realize it was a chain.
> 
> That pic was from last year. Took Nash out for a walk, he found that on the street, picked it up, and wouldn't drop it until we got almost all the way back home.
> 
> Nash hates litter, apparently.


Yessir! Pretty popular. Next to a fancy Bobba tea joint 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Yessir! Pretty popular. Next to a fancy Bobba tea joint
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Is that like Bobba Fett?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Is that like Bobba Fett?


Sorry being a SW nerd I keep spelling it that way. Eh....don't care, message sent  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Sorry being a SW nerd I keep spelling it that way. Eh....don't care, message sent
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I actually think both are spelled with just one "b".

OCD FTW!


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> Has anyone else noticed a change in their forum alerts, which happened within the last few days?
> 
> I used to only see alerts when someone quoted me, or tagged me in a post. Now, when I log in, I see alerts which are just telling me that someone replied to a thread I'm subscribed to. And it's not people I follow (I don't even know why I follow anyone, it doesn't seem to change the user experience at all). Any reply to any thread I'm subscribed to, from anyone, now creates an alert I see when I log in.
> 
> ...


WUS has always seemed a bit hit and miss when it comes to alerts. Yes I get alerts when I'm quoted, replied to, or mentioned in a post. I sometimes get alerts for threads I've posted to; sometimes I get an alert and find there's several pages of posts that have been made since I posted to the thread before I get an alert and it may or may not position me on the first post I've not read.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Whatever is happing with WUS, its nothing compared to the overall Tapatalk notification mess right now. I get alerts every day... for stuff that happened yesterday... or the day before... or several days ago. Stuff I've already seen, stuff I've already marked as read, etc. Super annoying.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> ...Super annoying.


Like when guys obsess over a particular shade of blue, amirite?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

RotorRonin said:


> Whatever is happing with WUS, its nothing compared to the overall Tapatalk notification mess right now. I get alerts every day... for stuff that happened yesterday... or the day before... or several days ago. Stuff I've already seen, stuff I've already marked as read, etc. Super annoying.


Yep. Isn’t it relaxing?


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Like when guys obsess over a particular _*pantone*_ shade of blue, amirite?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Like when guys obsess over a particular shade of blue, amirite?


How else am I going to color match a chapter ring?!

By the way, your warranty covers the watch even if it's in a other case, right?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16654574


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> How else am I going to color match a chapter ring?!


Spin the wheel:











RotorRonin said:


> By the way, your warranty covers the watch even if it's in a other case, right?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


>


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16654647


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


>


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Like when guys obsess over a particular shade of blue, amirite?



You changed the pantone didn't you?


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

DevilRay with my new home for the next 7 weeks in the background.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I have officially gotten used to my Antilles: wearing my beater with regular external bezel today, caught myself unscrewing the crown in order to set the bezel...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Digging this new, comfy parachute strap. 

A little annoyed though, the blue doesn't quite match.

:: ducks ::

...I'll see myself out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For our friends in the UK, there are a handful of interesting listings on eBay, from UK sellers...

One of only 15 no-date black v.1 Antilles - NTH Antilles Compressor Divers watch - Swiss movement | eBay

One of only 60 no-date Barracuda Blues - NTH Barracuda Blue No Date Dive Watch 300m Diver Bracelet | eBay

One of only 10 with-date Barracuda Blues - NTH Barracuda Blue Date Automatic Dive Watch 300m Diver Bracelet | eBay

Frustrating side note (and speaking of obsessing over various shades of blue) - check out these two pics, of the same watch, just date vs no-date. Same dial color, same bezel color, and pics probably taken with the same camera, under identical lighting, given that both are being sold by the same seller. And yet, they could not look more different, all because of the angle...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#BCT #NTHursday


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

Swiftsure. One of my favorites.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Pharos Phriday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Lumetastic


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> Lumetastic
> 
> View attachment 16659912


Yep









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

^^^^^ (forgot to quote @kpjimmy and too dumb to figure out how to after the fact)
I'm a bad WIS. I really don't give a damn about lume in my own collection yet I still want a full lume dial 🤔. HOPELESS.


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

CuriousBob said:


> I'm a bad WIS. I really don't give a damn about lume in my own collection yet I still want a full lume dial 🤔. HOPELESS.


WIS isn't a thing on planet Vulcan. Just enjoy yourself.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Rooting on 2 orange and black teams this afternoon so had to wear this guy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Someone say "lume"...?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ike2 said:


> View attachment 16660881
> 
> Rooting on 2 orange and black teams this afternoon so had to wear this guy.
> 
> ...


There's one you don't see every day


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## mg512 (Jun 1, 2020)

rawthumb said:


> View attachment 16650424
> View attachment 16650425
> View attachment 16650427


My wife said this watch screams,” I wear Rock revival jeans and wear a chain with a huge stainless steel cross.” But that she loves the color and it reminds her of sunset.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> There's one you don't see every day


True. Wearing it didn’t help the Os or Princeton lacrosse but at least I got to wear a cool watch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rawthumb (Nov 4, 2017)

mg512 said:


> My wife said this watch screams,” I wear Rock revival jeans and wear a chain with a huge stainless steel cross.” But that she loves the color and it reminds her of sunset.


Old school Levi's and an old tattered t-shirt here, but I had to have this watch and that color in my collection.


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## efawke (Nov 23, 2018)

delete


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Ike2 said:


> Rooting on 2 orange and black teams this afternoon


Princeton lacrosse?


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Avo said:


> Princeton lacrosse?


Yup. They would have needed a hell of a lot more mojo than my watch provided to beat Maryland. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Avo said:


> Princeton lacrosse?


Fear The Turtle!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## npl_texas (Jan 12, 2015)




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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

CHAMPS!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

If 10:08 is the ideal time, I guess 2:10 is the most unideal time.  this one still looks great.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Something odd is going on.... I'm no longer getting notifications when there's new posts in threads I'm following.

Anyone else?


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

I hope Doc, Dave, and the other veterans here are having a peaceful, reflective Memorial Day. This is always a solemn day for me, but this year things are... less clear. Not sure why. Maybe it's that it's the first Memorial Day since we left Afghanistan in a less-than-honorable fashion after all we sacrificed there, or maybe it's the recent events in Texas, but lots of thoughts swirling around about duty, sacrifice, what's expected of us, by whom, and why. Maybe all of that will converge into a coherent thought at some point but it hasn't as of yet, so... here's a watch.


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## xian (Feb 3, 2021)

TheBearded said:


> Something odd is going on.... I'm no longer getting notifications when there's new posts in threads I'm following.
> 
> Anyone else?


My notifications have been out of wack for the past two weeks or so unfortunately


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Something odd is going on.... I'm no longer getting notifications when there's new posts in threads I'm following.
> 
> Anyone else?


Tapatalk has gone haywire too.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

captainmorbid said:


> Tapatalk has gone haywire too.
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Tapatalk has gone absolutely nuts. I get 10-12 new notifications every time I open the app, almost all of which are ones I've cleared and are usually for stuff that happened days ago.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> I hope Doc, Dave, and the other veterans here are having a peaceful, reflective Memorial Day. This is always a solemn day for me, but this year things are... less clear. Not sure why. Maybe it's that it's the first Memorial Day since we left Afghanistan in a less-than-honorable fashion after all we sacrificed there, or maybe it's the recent events in Texas, but lots of thoughts swirling around about duty, sacrifice, what's expected of us, by whom, and why. Maybe all of that will converge into a coherent thought at some point but it hasn't as of yet, so... here's a watch.


Young men and women will always step into the gaps we leave behind. It is the way. 
And here’s a watch. And a Citroen. And the sunset over northern Canada.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

RotorRonin said:


> Tapatalk has gone absolutely nuts. I get 10-12 new notifications every time I open the app, almost all of which are ones I've cleared and are usually for stuff that happened days ago.


Yessir. I don’t follow many threads thankfully. I check in here and a few others, but it’s nearly non-functional. If there’s glitches on the web version too, it might be magnified here(my non technical just watched 3 episodes of Stranger Things, inexpert guess based on 1980’s movie internet tropes) or something… 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

mg512 said:


> My wife said this watch screams,” I wear Rock revival jeans and wear a chain with a huge stainless steel cross.” But that she loves the color and it reminds her of sunset.


Damn, now I really want one


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Upholder day


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

OG Azores









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

dmjonez said:


> Young men and women will always step into the gaps we leave behind. It is the way.
> And here’s a watch. And a Citroen. And the sunset over northern Canada.
> View attachment 16665627
> 
> ...


"Over the top, lads. After you" As the generals said to the troops in WW1. Actually, being balanced, the junior officers saw a higher fatality rate than the men.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

starwasp said:


> "Over the top, lads. After you" As the generals said to the troops in WW1. Actually, being balanced, the junior officers saw a higher fatality rate than the men.


In my career field, all the combatants are officers. I've lost several close friends, and I still miss them.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

xian said:


> My notifications have been out of wack for the past two weeks or so unfortunately


Yep. I've got to go to my Following link to play catch-up.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Matching the lume









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## Onabracelet (11 mo ago)

Question for the Doc. There is a thread on the general section regarding regulation, and I believe you are the man who knows the answers. It's my belief that most manufacturers, other than top end watches, and selected micro brands, don't check regulation before the watch leaves the factory, whereas somebody on the site believes otherwise. Of course, I may well be wrong. Could you have a look at the thread and put us straight.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Onabracelet said:


> Question for the Doc. There is a thread on the general section regarding regulation, and I believe you are the man who knows the answers. It's my belief that most manufacturers, other than top end watches, and selected micro brands, don't check regulation before the watch leaves the factory, whereas somebody on the site believes otherwise. Of course, I may well be wrong. Could you have a look at the thread and put us straight.


*Before* the watch leaves the *factory*, or *after* it's shipped to the *brand*, yet *before* the brand ships it to a* customer*?

I can't answer for all other brands, but...

1. Ideally, the accuracy of all movements should be checked BEFORE being assembled into watches, and then again after assembly, before being shipped to the brand. This is what my vendors do. I'm not sure all vendors do, though I'd hope they all would.

I think this is the literal answer to the question you asked. I don't know how they could NOT check the movements before shipping to the brand. How would they know they're not shipping any with bad movements, or movements which are wildly out of spec?

2. Unless the entire shipment somehow gets magnetized in transit, or the entire shipment gets knocked about so much that it affects the regulation of all watches, then most / all watches should arrive at the brand running as well as they did when they were shipped.

3. Not every vendor has the same regulating standards. For reasons I'm about to get into, I've never asked my OEM what their standards are. As far as I'm aware, they're merely checking all the movements to make sure they're running within manufacturer spec.

4. When the watches are delivered to the brand - what happens then? I think this is the more relevant question.

I'd think, or at least hope that any established brand would test them all, and regulate as needed. This is what we do (well, what our watchmaker, Dan, does). But I am certain that not ALL brands do this.

I can't speak to what larger brands might do. But I can say with certainty that many small brands are not checking every watch's performance as part of their own internal / final QC (assuming there even IS an internal / final QC), nor regulating.

The simple reason is they're not equipped and knowledgeable enough to do it, or simply aren't doing that final round of QC themselves.

There was a recent thread here in the affordables sub-forum, in which a brand owner admitted that their watches go directly from their point of assembly to their order fulfillment center, rather than first going to the brand for a final round of QC. I found that somewhat surprising, but the other brand owner maintained that it was "entirely normal":

"_Our watches go from our assembly team to our fulfillment center - QC of goods at a fulfillment center would generally be incredibly abnormal. Entrusting QC with the assembly team is entirely normal - the vast majority of brands (if not all) are not unpacking goods at their fulfillment stage to re-QC them._"









Defective Vaer D4 Arctic - New watch with a crooked dial


If this had happened to Rolex or Tudor (and I'm certainly sure it has), I'm 100% sure that there would be an exponentially bigger uproar than what you're seeing here in this thread. Apparently you've never read any Rolex forum threads ... try googling "rolex misaligned dial" ... tons of...




www.watchuseek.com












When I read that, I discussed it with some of my guys. We came to the conclusion that it must be a "numbers game" for these types of brands, wherein the savings from not doing the same QC we do helps to offset their lower prices, and / or the costs of what must presumably be a higher return for defect rate.

We estimate that during our final QC, Dan will pull roughly 5% of what we receive from our vendor for some reason, either regulating, or replacement of some defective part. That's probably a somewhat high estimate, as our vendors are very good, and we've been diligent about reporting back to them with anything we find, so they can improve on what they're doing before shipping to us.

I figure Dan's QC might miss something he should have caught with 1 in 3,000 pieces. So we don't get a lot of people contacting us about either defects or watches not running well on delivery. Most of the support requests we get are either for things which are within our standards (complaints about things which we do NOT consider defects), or are for issues which arise after some period of ownership.

I'd expect any brand NOT doing the same sort of QC we do to have a MUCH higher post-sale support rate. But maybe that's factored into their business plan.

Personally, I think it's better / more efficient to invest in doing more QC before we begin shipping inventory to customers. I think that higher QC cost is offset by lower post-sale support costs, and better supports our retail prices.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Onabracelet said:


> Question for the Doc. There is a thread on the general section regarding regulation, and I believe you are the man who knows the answers. It's my belief that most manufacturers, other than top end watches, and selected micro brands, don't check regulation before the watch leaves the factory, whereas somebody on the site believes otherwise. Of course, I may well be wrong. Could you have a look at the thread and put us straight.


As an additional response, I found the thread you started on this topic. I read your original post, and the last few posts. I skipped the rest, because it seems like a lot of argle-bargle, and I don't have it in me to deal with that sort of time-suck today.

But just responding to your OP with a few observations...

Your OP mentions regulating in multiple positions, whereas I think you're actually referring to movement manufacturers adjusting movements in multiple positions, which is a more painstaking process. It's not simply adjusting the regulator. It actually involves making many small adjustments to the balance and regulator, with the aim of minimizing positional variance and isochronism.

Assuming the movements are adjusted properly, and checked before being assembled into watches, I'd think the vast majority shouldn't need regulating post-assembly. And those that do shouldn't take that long. It might take Dan five minutes to regulate a watch in QC.

Your observations about being able to dial in the accuracy simply by adjusting the regulator in a single position is valid, in my view, as it doesn't really matter what position the watch is in when adjusting the regulator, since that will have the same effect on all positions, either speeding the movement up or slowing it down.

Especially with the Miyota 9 series movements, we've seen that they tend to have low positional variance and isochronism when we get them. But that's a result of the movements being well-adjusted before being shipped for assembly into watches.

Where I think the confusion is, is this - are you checking the timekeeping in multiple positions BEFORE regulating, in any position, in order to determine if regulating is even needed? 

A watch that runs +10 to +15 in 2-3 positions and -5 to -10 in 2-3 others is likely to average out to +2 to +5. Why speed it up or slow it down? But that's what you might do, if you only looked at it in one position.

The only reason I can think of to regulate that watch would be if you noticed the on-wrist / off-wrist performance wasn't good enough, which might simply be due to how much time the watch is spending in one or two positions where the variance is highest. If you observed that the watch ran +18 per day, you might slow it down a tad.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone looking for a Dolphin Ice? There's one on eBay. The seller provided 5 pics of the box, and 5 crap-tastic pics of the watch.

5 days left on the auction. Current bid is $305.








NTH Dolphin - Ice, With Date | eBay


<p>NTH Dolphin - Ice, With Date. </p><br /><p>Gently used watch in great condition! I bought it at the beginning of April from the original owner. It looks and runs great. The bezel still functions well. I’ve worn it 3 or 4 times since purchase. There are no flaws on the case I can see. There...



www.ebay.com




Guys - just a small bit of advice, for whatever it's worth...before complaining about the poor resale value on certain brands or watches, perhaps spend a moment looking at the quality of your sales listings, versus others'. Good / detailed pics can make a world of difference.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Should I do a thread on how our assembly / QC works? 

The "do factories do any regulating post-assembly" question got me thinking about the whole process of making watches, from each component being made to what we do after we receive them.

Maybe it's stupid and / or boring and no one really gives a rat's derriere.


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## TempusHertz (Dec 3, 2021)

I, for one, would be very interested to hear about the entire process, soup to nutz. Separate thread, if you ask me. Which I'm going to claim vociferously that you did.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I think you should continue dropping tidbits of info in this thread here: then I can boast about my insider knowledge elsewhere, and project a more interesting image of myself.
Customer abuse is a two-sided coin...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> I think you should continue dropping tidbits of info in this thread here: then I can boast about my insider knowledge elsewhere, and project a more interesting image of myself.
> Customer abuse is a two-sided coin...


And a double-edged sword, perhaps...


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## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

I have had the Orthos on the original bracelet since I bought it from Chris, one of my favourite and most worn watches, thought it was time to make a strap that would compliment the Orange & Blue colour scheme. Denim material was from an old pair of jeans that were being thrown out, but the colour had faded to almost an exact match to the dial.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Nazario and that  sunburst blue fade. 










-Rusty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


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## Onabracelet (11 mo ago)

docvail said:


> As an additional response, I found the thread you started on this topic. I read your original post, and the last few posts. I skipped the rest, because it seems like a lot of argle-bargle, and I don't have it in me to deal with that sort of time-suck today.
> 
> But just responding to your OP with a few observations...
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. It was me that started the thread. My point being, for anyone who hasn't read the thread, is that if you are familiar with the characteristics of the movement, regulating it in any more than one position is pointless. Like you said, if you regulate it in any one position, it will always alter it in another. For example, I know that an NH35 is best set at about +6spd dial up, a Miyota 9000 at about +3spd, and a Sellita SW200 at -1spd, therefore regulating any of them in a different position would be a waist of time. Of course, the beat error also has to be accurate. Other people argued that all movements are different, and any given model doesn't share a characteristic, but that isn't my experience.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

gavindavie said:


> Upholder day
> View attachment 16665879


Great strap choice!



docvail said:


> Should I do a thread on how our assembly / QC works?
> 
> The "do factories do any regulating post-assembly" question got me thinking about the whole process of making watches, from each component being made to what we do after we receive them.
> 
> Maybe it's stupid and / or boring and no one really gives a rat's derriere.



My vote is "no". You already share a lot on here. Keep something close to the vest


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Onabracelet said:


> Thanks for your input. It was me that started the thread. My point being, for anyone who hasn't read the thread, is that if you are familiar with the characteristics of the movement, regulating it in any more than one position is pointless. Like you said, if you regulate it in any one position, it will always alter it in another. For example, I know that an NH35 is best set at about +6spd dial up, a Miyota 9000 at about +3spd, and a Sellita SW200 at -1spd, therefore regulating any of them in a different position would be a waist of time. Of course, the beat error also has to be accurate. Other people argued that all movements are different, and any given model doesn't share a characteristic, but that isn't my experience.


I'd agree that movements of the same calibre tend to exhibit similar properties across all units of that calibre. We know what to expect, what's "normal" or "typical" for a Miyota 9 or Seiko NH3X.

I'd also agree that regulating in more than one position is pointless, and in fact probably bad terminology. Adjusting the regulator in one position will affect all positions, so making multiple adjustments after checking multiple positions seems like a recipe for endless frustration and mutually-counterproductive actions.

Again, I think your OP in that thread confuses regulation of a movement (adjusting the regulator) with adjusting the movement. Adjusting the movement isn't the same thing, and is done in multiple positions, by a watchmaker, during assembly of the movement.

Your question in the OP of that thread pertained to whether or not factories were regulating in multiple positions, post-assembly of the watch. The answer is typically no, though with the explanation that timekeeping would likely be checked as part of post-assembly QC, with any needed adjustments being made to the regulation (by adjusting the regulator, in any position, it doesn't matter which).

I'd disagree that all units of a given calibre will perform the same. I'd expect to see some variation on a timegrapher, and definitely on the wrist. We see most Miyota 9's running slightly fast in all positions, but we don't find that they all run fast to the same degree in any given position, and we've found some that will run slow in some positions.

(Hating to use the dreaded car analogy) - it's like cars. Anyone can look up the performance specs for the 2022 Corvette, and assume they'd all run the same way. We can make some blanket assumptions or suggestions about how to get the best performance, such as what oil or gas to use, but they're not all 100% identical in every way, even though they're supposed to be. One might be slightly faster off the line than the next.

There could be lots of tiny variations which add up to noticeable differences, even if the cars or watches are all assembled and tested by the same people, using the same instruments. The cars' or watches' owners will probably experience even wider variation, due to their driving/wearing habits and conditions.

Your standard dial-up settings for those movements would seem to assume that every unit of those calibres will have the same positional variance and isochromism, which I don't think is valid. Our experience is that the variation among units isn't very wide, but there is variation, and we sometimes find the occasional stand-out, which varies more than we might expect.

Those numbers may be very good targets for MOST units of those calibres, but if you're going to go to the trouble of adjusting the regulation of your watch, why not take readings in all positions, at full power and after some period of winding down, and look at the on-wrist/off-wrist performance, to come up with a target that is ideal for the specific unit you have?

Taking readings in all positions isn't the same as regulating in all positions. I'd want to know how the watch performs in all positions before regulating it at all (in any position, since it doesn't matter what position it's in when regulated).

Case in point - during our final QC, if Dan needs to regulate a watch with a Miyota 9 in it, he'll typically aim for +8 per day (or less), dial down, based on what we've seen with thousands of units of that calibre.

But he's not wearing any of them for any period of time, so he has no idea what the on-wrist / off-wrist performance might be. He's just using a number he knows is "good" for the vast majority of units of that calibre, based on what we've seen of its positional variance and isochronism, across thousands of units.

Reading our customers' comments, I see reports of everything from 0 secs / day to +14 secs / day observed variation. Some of that is due to variation in the movements' adjustment, some due to variation in their regulation, and some due to variation in the owners' wearing habits and environment.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A side-note example of a tiny variation that can be very noticeable...

Last week I posted a pic, showing two bezel retention rings side-by-side. One had a much tighter radius than the other.










Those rings both came from cases which were made at the same factory, at the same time (two years ago). The rings were the same length, same thickness, and had the same number of bends in them.

Not all the rings in all the cases we just received were bad. A few less than half of them were. The rest were fine, so the problem wasn't caused by letting the un-assembled cases sit on a shelf for two years. The rings weren't simply "too old". We also checked a watch we got two years ago, and it was fine, just to hammer that point about it not being a problem with the age of the part.

Dan tried bending one of the bad rings more, to match the good rings, and put more tension in it. He got the bends to match, but the bezel still popped off the case too easily.

What's the explanation? Some slight difference in metallurgy? Maybe. But why and how would that happen? If all those rings came from the same supplier, we'd expect them to all be the same.

I can't explain it. All I can say is that if we shipped all those watches, almost half would be coming back to us for a retention ring replacement, even though they all had exactly the same specs for every component used in assembly.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> The Mack will be released soon. I gotta revisit the numbers, but a large portion of sales proceeds will go to SFC Brian Mack's surviving family. It'll be available with or without a date.
> 
> View attachment 16629124
> View attachment 16629126
> View attachment 16629156


Any time-line updates for this one, doc?


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

Just ordered my first NTH from Watchgauge. the Devilray Turquoise….Looking forward to checking this brand out.


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## joemamad (Oct 27, 2019)

Cup changing with the DevilRay this morning


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nonsense doesn't sleep...









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Any time-line updates for this one, doc?


Soon.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)




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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> Dan tried bending one of the bad rings more, to match the good rings, and put more tension in it. He got the bends to match, but the bezel still popped off the case too easily.


I've done that a couple of times when changing Vostok bezels; end result is usually just refit the ring that came off with the old bezel and not bother with the new one. I gave up trying to reason why if you have two tension rings which appear to have identical geometry one works and one doesn't.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

AVG still holding its own wrist-time-wise against the Speedy.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Blue Monday









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Production updates, for those wondering - 

White Swiftsure and White Thresher - should be available within a week or two.

The Mack - late this month or early next month. We're waiting to get them, and our boxes.

The Vanguard, in v.2 Subs case, all on BOR - available exclusively from Long Island Watch, late this month or early next month.

New Subs versions, all on oyster, with date, available exclusively from Watch Gecko, late this month or early next.

The rest of the 2K1's - sometime next month, give or take.

More Subs - v.2 case versions of Amphion Vintage Gilt (gilt relief dial), Näcken Modern Blue, Näcken Vintage White (full lume), the Näcken Frost Blue (exclusively from Watch Gauge), and the Scorpène Black - late Summer / early Fall (August - September-ish).

DevilRays - haven't even submitted the production order yet. Hoping to do that tomorrow, and that we'll get them before the end-o-year holidays.


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

Excited for the Mack and how we can add a little extra...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Haven't done this in a while...

Skipjack - turns out there was one piece hiding in Korea. It's a no-date. Last new one you're likely to see, ever - 인투와치

Vanguard (v.1) - ditto the above, it's a lost then found piece. The new ones we have coming in will be in the v.2 case, so if you like the v.1 case better, this is the last of the v.1 Vanguards (also a no-date) - 인투와치

Bahia, with date - last 1 or 2 pieces - 인투와치

DevilRay, Black - until we get the new ones in late this year, this is the last piece, a with date - 인투와치

DevilRay, White (whilver, whatever), 1-3 pieces left, all no-date - 인투와치

Näcken Modern Black (v.1), with date, last 1 left - 인투와치

Nazario Vino Rosso, last 1 - 인투와치

Näcken Modern Blue (v.1), with date, last 1 or 2 left - 인투와치

Scorpène, Blue - last 1-3 pieces - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=89&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Antilles, Dark Rum, no date, last 1 left - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=248&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Antilles, Dark Rum, with date, last 1 left - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-antilles-dark-rum-date

Näcken Modern Black, v.2, just 2 pieces left, 1 with date, 1 no-date. Both at Serious. Both listed on the BOR, but they'll switch it out for you on request if you email them ([email protected]) - https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth?page=1

Those are all the "last 1-3" piece SKUs, but inventory is getting low on just about everything, with an average of just 6 pieces left for all SKUs.

Email [email protected] to request they remove the Korean sales tax before buying anything from IntoWatch, if you're not in Korea.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Hey Chris! You rock!

That will be all. For now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Hey Chris! You rock!
> 
> That will be all. For now.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> Excited for the Mack and how we can add a little extra...











About the Mack, part one...


A portion of all sales of The Mack will go to benefit Sergeant First Class Brian A. Mack's surviving family. For more about the Mack's design, see part two. Separate contributions to the Mack family can be made here. Some who've followed me on social media or watch forums may recall me...




nthwatches.com


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

I am new to NTH, just curious, how many of the Turquoise (no date) were made? Do you make the same amount of each color? 


docvail said:


> Soon.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NatDaBrat said:


> I am new to NTH, just curious, how many of the Turquoise (no date) were made? Do you make the same amount of each color?


Just 25 of the Turquoise no-date v.2 DevilRays were made.

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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

thank you! Can’t wait to get it from Watchgauge. Im sure it wont be my last 😎


docvail said:


> Just 25 of the Turquoise no-date v.2 DevilRays were made.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

NatDaBrat said:


> thank you! Can’t wait to get it from Watchgauge. Im sure it wont be my last 😎


It won't. NTH Watches are like rabbits. By the time you see one, there are three...then more


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> It won't. NTH Watches are like rabbits. By the time you see one, there are three...then more


🤣 I learned that in a hurry with GShocks, the Oceanus….lol….


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In case you missed it.






First pics up - Thresher - Polar White - Available Mid-June 2022


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

mplsabdullah said:


> .
> View attachment 16680390
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


This looks kind of cool.
Where did you get this brown barracuda?
And will there be more available?
(I don't think anybody has them in stock now)
Thanks


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> In case you missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooooh, I’m gonna need this one!


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

watchman600 said:


> This looks kind of cool.
> Where did you get this brown barracuda?
> And will there be more available?
> (I don't think anybody has them in stock now)
> Thanks


No longer in production and no idea if they will be again. 

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> This looks kind of cool.
> Where did you get this brown barracuda?
> And will there be more available?
> (I don't think anybody has them in stock now)
> Thanks





mplsabdullah said:


> No longer in production and no idea if they will be again.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


We make them something like every 2 years (the odd-numbered years, it seems).

They were first produced for a mid-2017 release, then again for a mid-2019 release, then, in a fit of inconsistency, I completely lost my mind (apparently), and made them again for a release in January 2021. Looks like we sold out of them late last year.

No plans to make more until 2023, at the earliest, if we even do.

We've made 125, so far. I wouldn't expect us to make more than another 50, when or if we do. And if we do, that will probably be that, and all she wrote for the Barracuda Brown.

For most 40mm Subs models, the average production number is right around 100 pieces (date + no-date combined), but 50 pieces (25 date / 25 no-date) is the most common number.


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

docvail said:


> We make them something like every 2 years (the odd-numbered years, it seems).
> 
> They were first produced for a mid-2017 release, then again for a mid-2019 release, then, in a fit of inconsistency, I completely lost my mind (apparently), and made them gain for a release in January 2021. Looks like we sold out of them late last year.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the detailed info! Wow. 
Maybe a Barracuda sunburst *green* with gilt and snowflake hands could be a winning version.
---
Wearing my vintage Amphion gilt as I write this...my favorite of all your watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My phone is blowing up...
















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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> Thanks for all the detailed info! Wow.
> Maybe a Barracuda sunburst *green* with gilt and snowflake hands could be a winning version.
> ---
> Wearing my vintage Amphion gilt as I write this...my favorite of all your watches.


Green and gold.

The Bishop Don Magic Juan would approve...









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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

I don't know who that is, but...
You made me smile!

Green and Gold go VERY good together
and I'm sure a sunburst green and gilt Barracuda with snowflake hands 
would sell out fast.
I would buy one!
(and I would get it on the beads of rice bracelet)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Like guys who suggest what we should produce, my random texters don't lack for persistence...









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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Like guys who suggest what we should produce, my random texters don't lack for persistence...
> View attachment 16682477
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


You have too much fun with these


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

I have nothing in common with random texters who are likely scammers.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> I have nothing in common with random texters who are likely scammers.


All in good fun. I have lots of peeps who suggest what we should make, and lots of random texters.

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Goddammit, I mis-typed "smuggled".

Now it's gonna sound weird...









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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

Only now it's going to sound weird?? 
Either way "snuggled" or "smuggled" that answer is comedy GOLD!


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

Snuggled may be better! 🤣🤣🤣


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Pool duty earlier today. I dove to the bottom, because dive watch 🤣


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Mediocre said:


> Pool duty earlier today. I dove to the bottom, because dive watch 🤣


Whoa careful with that, you know, dynamic pressure, aggressive chloride and all 😋


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> I have nothing in common with random texters who are likely scammers.


In all seriousness...

I like the idea of a green sunburst / gold markers dial. 

The challenge is that we don't have the ability to make a green steel bezel to go with it, as green isn't an option with PVD coatings. The closest color to green is the "khaki" color we're using for the Mack.

What color should the bezel be? Black, making it sort of a reverse-"Kermit"? Plain stainless? Blue?

I just don't see it working very well, no matter what color we use, if we're to stick with the steel bezels.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> In all seriousness...
> 
> What color should the bezel be?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> In all seriousness...
> 
> I like the idea of a green sunburst / gold markers dial.
> The challenge is that we don't have the ability to make a green steel bezel to go with it, as green isn't an option with PVD coatings. The closest color to green is the "khaki" color we're using for the Mack.
> What color should the bezel be? Black, making it sort of a reverse-"Kermit"? Plain stainless? Blue?


Serious answer: I'd love the green sunburst, but not so crazy for the gold, unless you could match the bezel. So, I'd like silver markers/hands (or maybe applied, if the color is there) and a silver or black bezel...


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

I agree, skip the gold and that solves the problem


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Don't see how skipping the gold fixes the problem. I guess I just don't see the black or stainless bezel working well.

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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Don't see how skipping the gold fixes the problem. I guess I just don't see the black or stainless bezel working well.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Skipping the gold removes an "extra" color. The Barracuda, beautiful watch BTW, has black and gold. Adding the green might make it a little over the top. BUT maybe not. Oris pulls it off:









With gold, but they add a gold- trimmed bezel:


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

A new thing to pester Doc with. Two-Tone subs?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Skipping the gold removes an "extra" color. The Barracuda, beautiful watch BTW, has black and gold. Adding the green might make it a little over the top. BUT maybe not. Oris pulls it off:
> View attachment 16684000
> 
> 
> ...


So...

Notwithstanding what I said earlier, about theoretically liking the notion of a sunburst green and gold dial, I'm not big on the idea of a green-dialed Sub, with or without gold, full stop.

I don't like how either Oris looks with the black bezel. I think that Tissot pictured above only looks marginally better.

Not to be a purist, but...we have two Subs ranges with snowflake hands, the Barracudas, and the Näckens. 

With the exception of the Barracuda Polar White, all the Barracudas have gilt hands/markers, C3 lume, and either a sunburst dial texture, or a gilt-relief dial, and matching bezel color. 

So, following that pattern, a green Barracuda would have a sunburst green dial with gilt hands/markers, and...I dunno, since we can't do a green bezel in PVD steel, it would have to have a stainless bezel, which I don't think would look right, either with blacked out markers (like the Barracuda Polar White) or white lume markers (like the Dolphins).

All of the Näckens are fairly monochromatic. The Modern Black and Modern Blue have matte dials, white-framed hands/markers, white lume, and matching bezels. The Vintage Black, Vintage Blue, and Vintage White all have sandpaper texture dials, and gray, blue, or black bezels. 

Again, keeping with the theme, a Modern Green is out of the question, because we can't do a green PVD bezel. I think a Vintage Green with sandpaper-textured dial would be ugly, no matter what color bezel you put on it.

It doesn't really matter what Subs "family" you look at. Matte or sunburst dials. Snowflake, Sword, or any other hands. We'd be facing the same problem - no green bezels. I'm not about to make an Amphion Green, Odin Green, or Scorpène Green. The only Subs design which might lend itself to a green sunburst dial is the Dolphin, and, honestly, I'm just not feeling it.

If you want a green-dialed NTH, get yourself an Azores Absinthe, before they're gone. As I type this, there are only 14 left in the world - 8 no-date, and 6 with-date. I doubt we'll make more, ever, but if we do, it'll be at least 2 years.

Sorry, guys, but you know how it is. I'm not really looking for input into future design ideas.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> A new thing to pester Doc with. Two-Tone subs?


Not gonna happen.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> In all seriousness...
> 
> I like the idea of a green sunburst / gold markers dial.
> 
> ...


Why not give it a shot on the not so tip secret non-diver? Don't need to match a bezel insert to the dial if it ain't got one.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> In all seriousness...
> 
> I like the idea of a green sunburst / gold markers dial.
> 
> ...


Try a sapphire or ceramic bezel? 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

VH944 said:


> Whoa careful with that, you know, dynamic pressure, aggressive chloride and all 😋



It was nerve racking. Near the bottom I wondered "what if I forgot to screw the crown down?"


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> In all seriousness...
> 
> I like the idea of a green sunburst / gold markers dial.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, just assumed green was available in PVD. That is kinda crazy!

But I legitimately know nothing about the PVD creation or attachment process either


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Sorry, guys, but you know how it is. I'm not really looking for input into future design ideas.


Doc, you bronze know we gmt totally pantone get that, but blue sometimes we green just can't gold help ourselves. But we're 38mm here and jubilee loyal...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First ever Scorpène (prototype)









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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh, are we doing Scorpène for #NTHursday...?




























Earlier in the week










Damn fine NTH model!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Oh, are we doing Scorpène for #NTHursday...?
> 
> View attachment 16686355
> 
> ...


Bruh - why does my 6-year old Scorp look brand new, and your less-than-6-year-old Scorp look like you fell off a Honda Hawk and rode the watch down a quarter-mile stretch of Maine highway?

And before you answer "because you're a soft little manlet who doesn't live hard," know that that watch has fallen off my wrist (damned bracelet screws backing out) at least twice, one time skidding face-down across a bunch of paver stones.

Otherwise, yes, I'm easy on my watches. That one's the big exception.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Swiftsure and Thresher Polar White now in stock and available to purchase. Should be shipping by early next week.









Swiftsure - Polar White


Video Description Built to go deeper. The 2K1 Subs are our tribute to the world’s first diving watches fitted with helium escape valves, made for record-setting, deep-depth saturation diving in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. Like those innovative watches, the 2K1 Subs are rated to 2001 feet...




nthwatches.com













Thresher - Polar White


Video Description Built to go deeper. The 2K1 Subs are our tribute to the world’s first diving watches fitted with helium escape valves, made for record-setting, deep-depth saturation diving in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. Like those innovative watches, the 2K1 Subs are rated to 2001 feet...




nthwatches.com


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Bruh - why does my 6-year old Scorp look brand new, and your less-than-6-year-old Scorp look like you fell off a Honda Hawk and rode the watch down a quarter-mile stretch of Maine highway?
> 
> And before you answer "because you're a soft little manlet who doesn't live hard," know that that watch has fallen off my wrist (damned bracelet screws backing out) at least twice, one time skidding face-down across a bunch of paver stones.
> 
> Otherwise, yes, I'm easy on my watches. That one's the big exception.


Because I actually use my watches for stuff like crawling around a concrete floor, working on a 34 yr old Honda Hawk. Y'know, manly men things.

That, and I think that, awesome as the Commando bezel is, raw steel shows scratches more.

Don't care, fantastic watch. This and my BB36 would be the two last to go if I suddenly needed to firesale all my watches... and the BB36, largely because it was a gift from the mrs-ish and she'd kill me if I sold it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Because I actually use my watches for stuff like crawling around a concrete floor, working on a 34 yr old Honda Hawk. Y'know, manly men things.
> 
> That, and I think that, awesome as the Commando bezel is, raw steel shows scratches more.
> 
> Don't care, fantastic watch. This and my BB36 would be the two last to go if I suddenly needed to firesale all my watches... and the BB36, largely because it was a gift from the mrs-ish and she'd kill me if I sold it.


It ain't just the bezel. Look at the lugs. Looks like you been wearing it while bear-wrasslin'.

And speaking of fire-sales - I saw what you did with that 1 of 1 Scorp DLC. Hope the guy who bought it at least threw in a shoulder rub...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I saw what you did with that 1 of 1 Scorp DLC. Hope the guy who bought it at least threw in a shoulder rub...


I'm gonna do more than rub this Scorpene, Doc! 

Unfortunately that means this will soon be a 0 of 1 Scorp.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> It ain't just the bezel. Look at the lugs. Looks like you been wearing it while bear-wrasslin'.
> 
> And speaking of fire-sales - I saw what you did with that 1 of 1 Scorp DLC. Hope the guy who bought it at least threw in a shoulder rub...


Some of us actually _wear_ our watches, Doc... This is why I don't do dress watches.

Yeah, time to move it along to someone who recognized the value. And also, there's The Brotherhood to consider.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Has there ever been a Thresher or Swiftsure polar white dial in the 40mm sub series?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JMSpivey said:


> Has there ever been a Thresher or Swiftsure polar white dial in the 40mm sub series?


Barracuda Polar White.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Some of us actually _wear_ our watches, Doc...


Is that so?









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Evening switch to the Nazario Azzurro...









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

docvail said:


> Barracuda Polar White.
> View attachment 16686665
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


My third NTH should be a white dial…


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Barracuda Polar White.
> View attachment 16686665
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Barracuda with white lume and red accents, since you asked for suggestions!


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

docvail said:


> Barracuda Polar White.
> View attachment 16686665
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Maybe I missed it. Are there plans for this in the v2 sub case?


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

RotorRonin said:


> Barracuda with white lume and red accents, since you asked for suggestions!


That would be killer too. I’d still go for the blue/orange combo.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Someone say white?









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

kpjimmy said:


> Someone say white?
> View attachment 16687613
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


🤩


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Barracuda with white lume and red accents, since you asked for suggestions!


I didn't. 



JMSpivey said:


> Maybe I missed it. Are there plans for this in the v2 sub case?


None yet.



JMSpivey said:


> That would be killer too. I’d still go for the blue/orange combo.


Still wasn't.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

docvail said:


> I didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Was traveling yesterday, back to an NTH now


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)




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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Mediocre said:


> Was traveling yesterday, back to an NTH now
> 
> View attachment 16688743


Is that a cork strap? Looks good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Ike2 said:


> Is that a cork strap? Looks good!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, yes it is. Martu strap


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Mediocre said:


> Thanks, yes it is. Martu strap


I thought it might be. I just bought one from Andrea for my old trusty Orient “Explorient”. Very pleased with it.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Ya'll realize you're a bunch of enablers? Right? 

This showed up today: 










Although this is substantially smaller than the Thresher, it's still striking for being such a svelte watch even for a 40mm.

I've been eyeing these for well over a year. Doc finally got me off the dime on this one, what with only 6 with date left in the world and all. 

Enablers. All of you. 

But, damn, it's a good looking watch.


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

NTH Swiftsure.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Stopped by the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard's open house (for cilvillian follks) of the Shipyard Heritage Center. Lots of history the there, including submarine production. Here's a couple models:

Skipjack









Thresher









The Thresher sank during sea trials, all hands lost. The mrs-ish's grandfather, a lead machinist at the Yard was supposed to be on the boat, but was ordered away after coming down sick, and regretfully passed his ticket along to another peer.



















PNSY has a long history of boat production, which segued into repairs in the late 60s. It's an active yard, one of the largest employers in the region. My ex FiL worked there, as did his brother. Now ex-no.1's baby daddy does, along with the mrs-ish, works for a DoD outfit serving Dept of the Navy.

OK, fine, and a watch.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Sorry to follow such a cool and profound post with a banal one — but is it just me or is the Tapatalk app all dysfunctional? Notifications haven’t updated for weeks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Same here.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Sorry to follow such a cool and profound post with a banal one — but is it just me or is the Tapatalk app all dysfunctional? Notifications haven’t updated for weeks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not just you. I’m finding it takes 3-4 attempts to upload a pic.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Ike2 said:


> Sorry to follow such a cool and profound post with a banal one — but is it just me or is the Tapatalk app all dysfunctional? Notifications haven’t updated for weeks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not just tapatalk. Most of the threads I follow don't give notifications for new posts anymore and I'm using a browser.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Heading towards Cyprus at a super fast 11kts...

DevilRay and the Mediterranean


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Not just tapatalk. Most of the threads I follow don't give notifications for new posts anymore and I'm using a browser.


Same here


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Using the browser on my laptop - I just want my alerts to go back to the way they were - just showing me when someone quotes or tags me in a thread. I use the followed threads page to see when there are new posts to threads I follow. 

They still tell me if someone quotes me. I'm not sure if they're showing me when someone tags me. As far as new posts to followed threads go, it's like they only tell me when someone's posted to a thread I haven't looked at in months.

Tapatalk - seems to be working the way it usually does, as far as I can tell, but I'm using Tapatalk Pro, so maybe that has something to do with it. Also, I don't ever look at the notifications tab, so if notifications were messed up, I wouldn't notice it. 

Uploading pics seems to work fine, albeit, doing so with previous versions of Tapatalk was much more intuitive. Though maybe it's the new forum software which caused the change, not Tapatalk. 

Given that the issues seem to exist on both Tapatalk and when viewing the forum through a browser, I wonder if it all isn't due to forum software, and Tapatalk isn't to blame for any of it.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Weird… 










Odd that it’s the “unread” and “timeline”. 

“Subscribed” and “participated” still open, but generally just repeatedly shows me the same post as “unread”, but will show new posts once I click on the actual thread. Also, Tapatalk pro.

There’s some shenanigans in them there codes methinks. Something isn’t compatible.

Pic posting is definitely affected too, it took 3 tries to attach the screen shot… 

Hopefully it won’t sign me out, as I’m old and have zero clue what my password is, and I vaguely remember being lightly stumped when I had to reset the last time due to software updates. I was gone for a year that time… saved me $… 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

From Tapatalk this am,


Thank you for contacting Tapatalk.
The issue you are reporting is caused by a server error.
Our technical team has been alerted.

Sorry for the inconvenience in uploading this is causing.

Chris
Tapatalk Support


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Renegade today









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Okay...

Polar White Swiftsures and Threshers have now been received into our warehouse inventory. Any / all new orders for those should ship within 24 hours or the next business day.

Just paid my box vendor, so we should be getting the boxes we need for the Mack within a week to 10 days. Likewise, I'm expecting we'll receive the actual watches within the same timeframe, more or less, and should have them available for purchase before the end of the month.

For anyone who's been looking for a Vanguard - they're coming back, all on BOR bracelet, and exclusively available from Long Island Watches, probably within the same timeframe as the Mack.

And, lastly, for everyone who's asked us to put a high-boy box crystal on a Sub, and / or wanted even more vintage flavor, keep an eye on what Watch Gecko has coming. I don't want to spoil all the surprises, but...their new NTH x Watch Gecko Subs will be very different than our usual fare. Those should be available within the next 3-4 weeks.

Here's a little sneak preview...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Santa Fe today:










Kind of given up scoring a second one of these any time soon so my plan now is to find someone who can supply and install all black sword hands and install a bezel insert for me. I will then gift the watch to my brother who served with me on the _Santa Fe_. I'll continue to keep an eye out for one that I can keep.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also – about the Mack…

A few guys have asked me how they can contribute more, above and beyond or as an alternative to buying the watch. I’m in the process of setting up a GiveSendGo campaign for that purpose. I’ll post a link when it’s live.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Santa Fe today:
> 
> View attachment 16695254
> 
> ...


There were only 25 in the original release. We assembled 2 more using spare parts we had, but the spares are all gone.

You probably already did this, but you might try creating a WTB ("wanted to buy") thread in the sales forum, and setting up alerts on WatchRecon and eBay.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> This looks kind of cool.
> Where did you get this brown barracuda?
> And will there be more available?
> (I don't think anybody has them in stock now)
> Thanks


Our friend @mplsabdullah is selling his. I'll vouch for him as a seller.









Delete**


Withdrawn. Delete.




www.watchuseek.com


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

docvail said:


> Our friend @mplsabdullah is selling his. I'll vouch for him as a seller.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you !
It's nice of you to write me this post/message, 
since I probably would have missed it otherwise.
I just sent @mplsabdullah a private message.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those who asked...



https://www.givesendgo.com/themack


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested in learning more about the Mack's design:









About the Mack, part two...


About the design of The Mack: Because The Mack was inspired by an infantry soldier, we wanted to combine field-watch utility with NTH’s vintage styling cues, and tie together some subtle nods to the US Army. The first order of business was to come up with a color scheme that matched the US...




nthwatches.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't know what I was doing on this date last year, but apparently whatever it was was awesome.









Side discussion - apparently stuff like this is saved in the cloud. It makes me wonder how much of the cloud is made up of useless $hlt no one will ever bother accessing.

When the human race goes extinct, and AI looks back at what we were all about, is this the stuff by which we'll be judged?

If so, you're welcome.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Never goes out of style


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Not just tapatalk. Most of the threads I follow don't give notifications for new posts anymore and I'm using a browser.


So tired of notifications being seemingly random


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

I’ve noticed more micro brands using hardness coatings, that seem to work very well. Are there any downsides to these other than added cost? Is that something Nth has looked into?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Caltex88 said:


> I’ve noticed more micro brands using hardness coatings, that seem to work very well. Are there any downsides to these other than added cost? Is that something Nth has looked into?


Don't know, and no, not really.

Years ago, I did a deep-dive into metallurgy, examining and comparing the relative merits of various steel alloys, and the processes employed to increase hardness (all the way through the metal, as well as just on the surface) and strength.

I think hardness coatings are gimmicks of dubious value. They give brands without much to talk about something to talk about. They give fans of those brands an increased perception of value, and something else to talk about online.

Cold forging and annealing strengthens and hardens the steel parts. Surface coatings don't harden the underlying metal, so they can't prevent the most serious damage to a watch (dents), only minor scratches.

These are _tool_ watches. And ultimately, they're disposable (albeit, after decades). Adding a surface coating to a disposable tool watch seems like buying a lifetime warranty for your mobile phone.

Said this before, in various ways...

A lot of the online commentary seems to follow a formula: "for the price, I wish (or would expect) it to at least have [feature]."

It's Swiss movements, expansion clasps, better accuracy, ceramic or sapphire bezels, hardness coatings, whatever.

If it's not "for the price", then it's simply, "have you thought about adding (X)?"

With most of these, I either feel like what we're doing is actually better / makes more sense, or I feel like if it was worth doing, everyone would already be doing it, and we'd feel compelled to follow suit. The market would have accepted / absorbed the added cost of the requisite feature, making it an automatic inclusion, obvious in its omission.

Every feature we add is going to add to the price. There is no feature we can add that will not raise the price. And at this point, everyone who asks about this or that feature or lodges this or that complaint is in an extreme minority.

We've addressed all the issues which drew the most complaints or requests, and made some improvements no one was requesting.

We've increased regulation, tightened our QC standards, improved the bracelet, improved the clasp, improved the end-links, switched to Viton seals, added rhodium coatings to markers, extended the returns period, added a 6 year movement guarantee, and even offer "try-on" watches (the Nearly New stuff).

We don't talk much about all of those things, because they're not all worth talking about. Some brands make a big deal out of Viton rubber seals. They literally cost fractions of a cent, and their relative value compared to NBR rubber seals is minimal, at best. Rhodium is a "precious metal", but it doesn't cost a ton to plate dial markers with it. It's not THAT precious.

We now get fewer complaints about our accuracy, end-links and clasps (not that we ever got that many). But I've yet to see anyone boasting about our watches' Viton seals or rhodium-plated markers.

I was recently discussing a customer's complaint about the noise of his watch's rotor with our watchmaker, Dan. It's something that might come up once a year, at most. It's a one-in-less-than-one-thousand frequency of occurrence.

Dan listens to every watch during QC, looking for those which might benefit from some added lubrication. He's never noticed one that was louder than any other.

The only solution - in order to satisfy the one customer per year who complains about rotor noise, we're supposed to open every watch, lubricate every rotor, and then re-pressure test every case when we're done?

We could do that, but it's going to be built into the price every customer pays. It doesn't seem right to charge every customer more because we addressed the one-in-less-than-one-thousand customer's complaint.

I try to limit the features / solutions I consider to those which offer the most noticeable and widespread benefit for the most justifiable cost.

For example - we do additional regulation because you'd notice if your watch kept lousy time. I'm not big on surface coatings because you can't notice the scratch your watch doesn't have, and we're just not seeing the widespread demand for them. Just like customers who don't hear their rotor wouldn't notice that we did more lubrication, and we're just not hearing enough complaints about rotor noise to feel compelled to address it in some way.

The vast majority (>99%) of our customers are happy with the product as it is, and don't want to pay more for any added features or solutions which less than 1% of customers demand, simply because some other brands make a big deal out of something.

I don't care what most other brands are doing. Most don't know what they're doing.


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## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Mediocre said:


> Never goes out of style
> 
> View attachment 16695748


Orthos on Denim


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tikuna Tuesday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

docvail said:


> Okay...
> 
> Polar White Swiftsures and Threshers have now been received into our warehouse inventory. Any / all new orders for those should ship within 24 hours or the next business day.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up Doc. Glad to see the polar Swiftsure back in stock. That watch is an absolute stunner!


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## watchyourself (Feb 24, 2007)

mconlonx said:


> Stopped by the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard's open house (for cilvillian follks) of the Shipyard Heritage Center. Lots of history the there, including submarine production. Here's a couple models:
> 
> Skipjack
> View attachment 16690933
> ...


Nice blast from the past. I actually worked in the Shipyard for a year and that was one of the first rooms we were in during the orientation. It's strange to see such a nice watch there though -- I had to sell some of my nicer pieces since I felt so out of place with something of that caliber there. My manager had a Solar Seiko and besides my brother's Speedy Schumacher, it was one of the fancier watches in a place where most people I worked with had Timexes and Casio F91Ws on!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

watchyourself said:


> Nice blast from the past. I actually worked in the Shipyard for a year and that was one of the first rooms we were in during the orientation. It's strange to see such a nice watch there though -- I had to sell some of my nicer pieces since I felt so out of place with something of that caliber there. My manager had a Solar Seiko and besides my brother's Speedy Schumacher, it was one of the fancier watches in a place where most people I worked with had Timexes and Casio F91Ws on!


It's the mrs-ish who actually works there, and I don't think many people notice watches much in her office. Guessing that in a lot of the shops, watches will be just basic, whatever you can get at WalMart stuff, but in an office environment, she occasionally rocks the bling... like a Seiko or Seagull 1963... or her silver Casio, etc. 

Cool place, lots of history, and it never surprises me to run into someone who has worked there, or passed through on a sub in for service.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

BigEd said:


> Orthos on Denim
> View attachment 16696486


Love this!


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

docvail said:


> Okay...
> 
> Polar White Swiftsures and Threshers have now been received into our warehouse inventory. Any / all new orders for those should ship within 24 hours or the next business day.
> 
> ...


Pip pip pooray!?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Just paid my box vendor, so we should be getting the boxes we need for the Mack within a week to 10 days. Likewise, I'm expecting we'll receive the actual watches within the same timeframe, more or less, and should have them available for purchase before the end of the month.


Great, that's gonna be my first NTH!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

JMSpivey said:


> Pip pip pooray!?
> 
> View attachment 16697188


Wait wait wait wait. 

ALUMINUM BEZEL INSERTS?!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Great, that's gonna be my first NTH!


Wait, seriously? All the time you've been hanging out here, you've never owned an NTH?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Wait wait wait wait.
> 
> ALUMINUM BEZEL INSERTS?!


What part of "very different than our usual fare" didn't make sense?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

#lunchtimelume









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> What part of "very different than our usual fare" didn't make sense?


Here's what we think the case profile will look like with the high-box crystal...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Aluminum is fine. Love the steel. Boxed crystal looks good. Just don't listen to those "value" people who say it has to have a sapphire or ceramic bezel to be "worth it" because that's a load of hogwash.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Aluminum is fine. Love the steel. Boxed crystal looks good. Just don't listen to those "value" people who say it has to have a sapphire or ceramic bezel to be "worth it" because that's a load of hogwash.


Bonus points for trying to bring back "hogwash"...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Wait, seriously? All the time you've been hanging out here, you've never owned an NTH?


Yep! I came for the entertainment, stayed for the watch (finally).

I do have an Atticus Icarus that I'm very fond of (and I also started the Atticus thread after the mods got sniffy about Rusty not being a sponsor ...)

My finger was hovering over the "buy" button @ $400 for the initial Amphion Modern pre-order way back when, but I already had a milsub homage (Kadloo) & also wanted a bezel without the individual minute markers ... then I really liked almost everything about the Holland except for the mercedes hour hand ... then the Amphion Commando was very tempting, but IMO a count-up bezel really should be bidrectional ... then the Barracuda Polar White is really great, except for that snowflake hand ...

Well you see how it goes with me.

On the plus side, my pickiness means that I only have ~30 watches instead of ~300 ...

And now I really like the Mack! All three sets of numbers (1-12, 13-24, 5-55), all lumed: great stuff. The second triangle at 30 is pure genius (even though the bezel really should be bidirectional to match, but I'm finally willing to overlook that ...). It might even go well with the brown Erica's that I bought for another watch that it turned out didn't work with at all ...

Anyway, really looking forward to it!

Cheers
Avo


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## pedro0223 (Aug 11, 2012)

It's 5 o'clock somewhere









Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

Just got my first NTH. Absolutely beautiful, so happy with it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NatDaBrat said:


> Just got my first NTH. Absolutely beautiful, so happy with it.
> View attachment 16697602
> 
> View attachment 16697603


Nice!

Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble (like, it breaks or stops keeping time, not dragging its butt on the carpet and tearing up the wife's rhododendrons). Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Here's what we think the case profile will look like with the high-box crystal...
> View attachment 16697339


Edit - except for the bracelet. That looks like the old version, with the c-shaped links.


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> Nice!
> 
> Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble (like, it breaks or stops keeping time, not dragging its butt on the carpet and tearing up the wife's rhododendrons). Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


Thanks Doc. Btw, I am a woman, so it might drag it’s butt across my Husband’s garage, but I doubt that. 😎
it really is stunning. I had gotten rid of all my automatics, and went on a Gshock, Oceanus/Solar kick, so this is the first auto back in the collection 🤓 and I doubt it will be the last NTH.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NatDaBrat said:


> Thanks Doc. Btw, I am a woman, so it might drag it’s butt across my Husband’s garage, but I doubt that. 😎
> it really is stunning. I had gotten rid of all my automatics, and went on a Gshock, Oceanus/Solar kick, so this is the first auto back in the collection 🤓 and I doubt it will be the last NTH.


1. Women can have wives, too (in fact, they can have mine - just take over payments).

2. This is only embarrassing because I'm just now connecting your user name to the email you sent us. I should have realized who you were.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Here's what we think the case profile will look like with the high-box crystal...
> View attachment 16697339


Wait, wait, wait... cyclops?!?


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> Wait, wait, wait... cyclops?!?


My thought exactly, and:
Engineering the thinnest sub case, so you can have nonfunctional stuff poke out of it?


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> Edit - except for the bracelet. That looks like the old version, with the c-shaped links.


Please NO male end links...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Wait, wait, wait... cyclops?!?


Yep.



VH944 said:


> My thought exactly, and:
> Engineering the thinnest sub case, so you can have nonfunctional stuff poke out of it?


Because vintage.



juskiewrx said:


> Please NO male end links...


Yes male end links.


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

Vintage GMT?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rocking the v.1









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> Vintage GMT?


Huh?

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

I just found out that the Miyota 9075 GMT movement exists.

That and the NH34 should make for some very interesting new watches coming out soon. Including the DevilRay GMT




juskiewrx said:


> Vintage GMT?


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

Wow, I’ve been blown away by this beautiful li’l mufugga. Great work Doc, just great work bratty ✅


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> I just found out that the Miyota 9075 GMT movement exists.
> 
> That and the NH34 should make for some very interesting new watches coming out soon. Including the DevilRay GMT


I'd heard a rumor about it a few months ago.

Just exchanged a text message about it with my vendor in Hong Kong. A couple challenges...

1. It seems that at this time, Miyota needs to approve which brands get to use it. I have no idea what the criteria for approval are, but we'll see if NTH passes muster. I hope we've earned some goodwill with the volume of Miyota movements we've used. I'm assuming they're completely unaware of my many public posts praising them.

2. Like with the Seiko GMT movement, the hands post is taller, to allow room for the GMT hand. With the DevilRay's case, this wasn't an issue, as we had the clearance we needed already. But for our 40mm Subs, we may need to modify the case in some way. At the very least, I'd think we may need to modify it with a more highly-domed crystal.

One additional challenge we've found since starting work on the DevilRays - the GMT adds another version / SKU to a design. So, if we make a version of a watch with black dial, and offer it with or without a date, that's 2 versions. Now we've added a GMT version to the mix. It increases the production numbers by 50%, which is a lot.

I'm sure we could rationalize GMT versions of our best-selling Subs models, but not all of them. I can already anticipate people requesting GMT versions of less-well-selling designs.

I'd think many micros won't have enough volume to offer a GMT version of an existing design in that scenario, and will instead opt to create designs which are ONLY made as GMT's. This is something we might do, too, to ease the strain on our production volume.

Prediction - there will be a spasm of new GMT's flooding the market, followed very soon by enthusiasts completely losing interest. I suspect a lot of the pent-up interest is simply a case of people wanting what they can't have. If so, then being able to have it will lead to those people not wanting it anymore.

It's a novelty, like an automatic chronograph. Most people just don't have enough use for the complication to rationalize its additional cost. Most just need to scratch the itch, one-time, to get it out of their system.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Snaggletooth said:


> Wow, I’ve been blown away by this beautiful li’l mufugga. Great work Doc, just great work bratty ✅
> View attachment 16700880
> 
> View attachment 16700879


Bratty?

I'm assuming that's a term of endearment, or some sort of compliment?


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Miyota makes reliable, accurate and reasonably priced movements and now a GMT movement! Looks like the hour hand can be adjusted independently making it a “true” gmt? If true that is a nice little feature.

I’d certainly be interested in a new NTH gmt design.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> But for our 40mm Subs, we may need to modify the case in some way. At the very least, I'd think we may need to modify it with a more highly-domed crystal.


The DR is in the clear right out of the gate, but what about the 2K1 case? 

Or do they not sell as fast, and you see them potentially going the way of the dodo bird? 

Simply curious. I'd be much more interested in a larger GMT, but I know my leaning towards larger watches is kind of in the WIS minority.

Also. I _finally_ remembered NTHursday. 









Pantone, bronze, swiss.


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

It's climbed into the top 3 in my collection, Doc...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> The DR is in the clear right out of the gate, but what about the 2K1 case?
> 
> Or do they not sell as fast, and you see them potentially going the way of the dodo bird?
> 
> ...


So...

We always design cases to be as thin as possible, which means minimizing the clearances within the case.

With the DevilRay, the case was originally designed for the STP1-11, then the design was modified for the slightly thicker Seiko NH3X series. The differences weren't just in the thickness, but also in the crown stem height, which forced us to modify the crown position, which I think is what bought us enough extra clearance to use the NH34 GMT, which has a taller hands post height.

It's not like that with our Miyota 9-based designs. They're all designed to be as thin as possible. There is no extra room in the case for a taller hands post. I spent a good chunk of my morning today discussing / debating this with my vendor.

We can't just raise the crystal. Its edge needs to stay where it is, for WR gaskets and the fitment with the case. And we can't just make the dome taller in the middle, where the hands post is, because we also need to have enough clearance at the tip of the seconds hand, or it will scrape the underside of the crystal.

I'm hoping to see technical docs, then work with Rusty to re-design the crystal. My thinking is it will need to be a more vintage-looking high-dome, but with taller / more vertical sides, because it needs to be taller at both the edge and the middle. In the cut-away profile, in my mind, the crystal will look something like this (an early / rejected version of the Phantom's case):









I don't MIND making the case thicker, to accommodate the GMT, but I don't LOVE it, either. Aside from making our designs less thin, it will add additional cost to make the crystal that way, above and over the added cost of the GMT movement. And, it will complicate life for us with post-sale support. We'll need to stock another version of replacement crystals.

For the 40mmm Subs, I can more easily rationalize it, because we sell so many. It's our core product range. For the 2K1's, it's harder, because that model hasn't sold nearly as well.

The 2K1's we have coming this year are being assembled using parts I ordered back in 2020. I made a big commitment to the model, based on the number of requests I'd gotten to make a larger version of the Subs. In retrospect, it's yet another example of how I usually come to regret listening more to other people than to my own gut instincts.

I'm not sure we'll ever make more of the 2K1's after this year. And it's too late to make a GMT using the existing parts. All those parts are now spoken for, and being used for assembly.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting piece on eBay - 1 of only 10 assembled DLC Barracuda Vintage Black with date - 









NTH BARRACUDA BLACK DATE DLC | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH BARRACUDA BLACK DATE DLC at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





Appears to be in good condition, and that price seems like a pretty good bargain.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

I think you’d still be making a pretty thin GMT case compared to others out there….


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, I love the 2K1. Perfect size for me and very thin. I hemmed and hawed about purchasing an black Swiftsure DLC but sat on the fence too long. I like the Sub as well. There's more variety I'm the Sub design - understandably so - and that means it's more likely I purchase more than one.

I said before, I want more 2K1s but I don't want to see a super-hot design go to the 2K1 and wallow there when many more would sell if the same design was in the Sub case. NTH is built on the Sub and that should be priority. I do hope there is room for the 2K1 in the future.

As far as a GMT, it's compelling but I think it'd be a complication that I can do without. My 24hr watches or the couple with 12hr bezels do what I need them to do. I'd pass. Even an NTH GMT in the Sub or 2K1 cases.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

NatDaBrat said:


> Just got my first NTH. Absolutely beautiful, so happy with it.
> View attachment 16697602
> 
> View attachment 16697603



Welcome to the thread with your NTH! Post it regularly and enjoy!!


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

docvail said:


> Bratty?
> 
> I'm assuming that's a term of endearment, or some sort of compliment?
> View attachment 16701189


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Nadsat Glossary - A Clockwork Orange







sites.google.com





Bratty, brat - brother


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> So...
> 
> We always design cases to be as thin as possible, which means minimizing the clearances within the case.
> 
> ...


Well for what it's worth, I may have three subs and a tropic, but my Swiftsure is my favorite from NTH. I'd rank it in my top 5. And the company it keeps are the watches I have insured.

I hope you don't fully discontinue the lineup and we see some more designs, but hey, business is business. And you know what works for you.


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

Does anyone have real life pics of the Vintage Watchgecko DevilRays. I am thinking of one, and can’t decide on the color.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Welp, since you asked for input, a white Barracuda GMT with white lume and red accents would basically be the watch I've been hunting for a few years now.

That vintage style crystal would be... ::chef's kiss::


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Another pool day with an NTH.

These NTH rubber straps are a worthwhile endeavor


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

NatDaBrat said:


> Does anyone have real life pics of the Vintage Watchgecko DevilRays. I am thinking of one, and can’t decide on the color.


This one?























Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Well for what it's worth, I may have three subs and a tropic, but my Swiftsure is my favorite from NTH. I'd rank it in my top 5. And the company it keeps are the watches I have insured.
> 
> I hope you don't fully discontinue the lineup and we see some more designs, but hey, business is business. And you know what works for you.


I mean, I try to never say never, when it comes to whether or not we'll make more of something. Future circumstances can change my considerations, but we'll see.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NatDaBrat said:


> Does anyone have real life pics of the Vintage Watchgecko DevilRays. I am thinking of one, and can’t decide on the color.


@DEMO111 posted some very nice pics of the vintage gray here - New NTH / Geckota Vintage Series Devil Ray

The photos on the product pages of the Watch Gecko site are very accurate, IMO.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Welp, since you asked for input, a white Barracuda GMT with white lume and red accents would basically be the watch I've been hunting for a few years now.
> 
> That vintage style crystal would be... ::chef's kiss::


Pffffft!

You'd just replace the dial and hands anyway...


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Subs GMT with Miyota 9075 movement. 

I can see a couple obvious choices: 

Scorpene black (very Sinn 857 UTC). A design with a shorter GMT hand and a 24hr scale printed in-board of the outer 12hr scale, you could use the dive bezel (like with the Devil Ray), or go with a Nomad 12hr bezel so people get their beloved 3-time zone functionality. 

Nacken modern black or blue (Tudor...). I suppose one issue will be any kind of night/day indication on the bezel, i.e. batman, pepsi, coke, etc. Although you could totally go with a stainless 24hr bezel as homage to the new BB Pro...

One thing to consider - a small minority will bash it if the bezel is not bi-directional. Scorpene with a stock bezel neatly addresses that one.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)




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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

NatDaBrat said:


> Does anyone have real life pics of the Vintage Watchgecko DevilRays. I am thinking of one, and can’t decide on the color.


My vintage blue DR, a few pics but not as good as @kpjimmy photos


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Subs GMT with Miyota 9075 movement.
> 
> I can see a couple obvious choices:
> 
> ...


People have too much time on their hands, and not enough dirt.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Folks...you're hearing it here first.

I moved some inventory around the world, such that I am now in possession of some inventory that has been sold out on the NTH site for a while...

Swiftsure Black, DLC, no-date - the last piece of its kind, out of only 5 made (5 with date / 5 no-date). We will not be making any more DLC versions of the 2K1's (unless I get a wild hair up my butt and tell Dan to assemble some using some parts we have, which can happen, but isn't likely with the 2K1's) - Swiftsure - DLC

Swiftsure Black, stainless, no-date - the only one in the Western hemisphere, one of only 3 left in the world, until we get more in - Swiftsure - Black

Thresher, Black, no-date - last in the world, until we get more in - Thresher - Black

DevilRay, Blue, with date - the only one in N. America, one of only 3 left in the world - DevilRay - Blue

DevilRay, Orange, with date - the only one in the Western hemisphere, one of only 3 left in the world. This version probably won't be produced again - DevilRay - Orange

DevilRay, Turquoise - with or without a date - I have one piece of each, the only ones of either in the Western hemisphere. Only 3 no-dates and 4 with-dates left in the world. Probably won't be produced again - DevilRay - Turquoise

Antilles, Cointreau - one of only 4 left in the world, and the only one in the Western hemisphere. Doubtful we'll ever make more - Antilles - Cointreau

Antilles, Hpnotiq - one of only 4 left in the world. Doubtful we'll ever make more - Antilles - Hpnotiq

Antilles - Rosé - one of only 5 left in the world, and the only one in N. America. Won't be made again - Antilles - Rosé


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> This one?
> View attachment 16703172
> View attachment 16703174
> View attachment 16703175
> ...


Thank you!


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

bigvic said:


> My vintage blue DR, a few pics but not as good as @kpjimmy photos


Beauties, thanks!


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## NatDaBrat (Oct 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> @DEMO111 posted some very nice pics of the vintage gray here - New NTH / Geckota Vintage Series Devil Ray
> 
> The photos on the product pages of the Watch Gecko site are very accurate, IMO.


Right on, thanks!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Pffffft!
> 
> You'd just replace the dial and hands anyway...


I mean, not if you made exactly what I want! 

PS: black snowflake hands, red GMT hand, white BGW9 lume.

PPS: To be fair, I only replaced the dial and hands once. The other time I kept the dial and hands and replaced the case!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> People have too much time on their hands, and not enough dirt.


Dude, you saw my Scorpene... plenty o' dirt, too...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The words "dirty" and "hands" are literally in my signature.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)




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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random is as random does...









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Man, I never get these. 

All I ever get are messages from NTH asking me why I haven't used my discount code yet ...

Waitin for the Mack to be released is why!!!


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)




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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok I will be the one to say it. Happy Father’s Day to youse guys who are dads, and all who have dads. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Finally took off the Vintage Black Barracuda that I recently purchased. Freakin' love the BoR bracelet!

Had to go with the Nacken for sailing day. Hope all the fathers out there have a good day, too!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Thresher blue al day:









I love the 2K1. It's a big watch but wears small. Good wrist presence.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Still the best NTH Sub that never was , my “Amphicuda” shinning in the sunshine. 










I am so glad I created this version, following my failed attempts to persuade Chris to make an official version. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.











Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
View attachment 16709956


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all please do me a solid and answer this poll:









Has inflation affected your collecting habits? If so, how?


Just curious. Seems like inflation is all over the news. Wondering how it's affected people's collecting habits. Answers / poll choices were just what I imagined would be people's responses. If I overlooked yours, feel free to add it as a comment. EDIT TO ADD - part of the reason I ask is that...




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Still the best NTH Sub that never was , my “Amphicuda” shinning in the sunshine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IMO, it's one of the better looking NTH Subs mods I've seen. Or maybe it just looks the most obvious / stock, as if it was something we made that way.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

bigvic said:


> My vintage blue DR, a few pics but not as good as @kpjimmy photos


Whatchutawkinabout?! Those pictures are awesome! 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

DevilRay Tuesday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone in the UK looking for a v.1 Antilles Black? The original v.1 Tropics had BOR bracelets with expansion clasps, and Swiss movements (STP1-11's).









NTH Antilles Compressor Divers watch - Swiss movement | eBay


The watch is running perfectly, the accuracy is within COSC and the condition is mint. The bracelet still has the protective plastic stickers on the clasp.



www.ebay.com





Some of the listing details are interesting. The movement is an STP, not a Soprod. Seller claims the movement was recently replaced, but I can't recall NTH having anything to do with that. He says the new movement is running within COSC specs, but I'd take that with a grain of salt.

Hard to tell its condition from the pics, but the price seems appealing, and maybe worth a punt.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Rhorya said:


>


This watch has a lot of goodness. And no badness. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Unreasonably good looking watch


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It's Woden's day again, so...









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Editing photos to hide specific details is a pain...

NTH x Watch Gecko Subs. Teaser...









Thicker crystals make the total case thickness ~13mm, not counting the date magnifiers.

I'm kind of excited to see these get rolled out.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, about those NTH x WG Subs - release date has been pushed back to mid-August. Sorry for anyone who's been eager to buy one.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Thresher again:


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Also, about those NTH x WG Subs - release date has been pushed back to mid-August. Sorry for anyone who's been eager to buy one.


 that's a shame, I thought that for once the release date would coincide with me actually being at home to get the watch when it was delivered (strange how I have not even seen it yet but know that I want it )
I guess I will just have to bore you all again with a count of how many days it will be till I see my new watch next trip I am onboard.

and here is a watch along with our ships clock


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

A couple of the non-removable links of my BoR bracelet are stuck with no articulation. I’ve tried cleaning with water and added some lubrication but it won’t budge. Just normal wearing, no contact with anything harmful. Any recommendations on freeing the links would be helpful. Thanks.


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## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos mod today....









Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## ocoee (Oct 4, 2018)

NTHursday!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JMSpivey said:


> A couple of the non-removable links of my BoR bracelet are stuck with no articulation. I’ve tried cleaning with water and added some lubrication but it won’t budge. Just normal wearing, no contact with anything harmful. Any recommendations on freeing the links would be helpful. Thanks.


Soak overnight in a mild solution of soapy water.

Maybe try a little spritz of silicon lubricant?

Force them to move. Break whatever's keeping them from moving.

The links are steel. Whatever's keeping them from moving will break before the links do.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

docvail said:


> Soak overnight in a mild solution of soapy water.
> 
> Maybe try a little spritz of silicon lubricant?
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc, I'll try the suggestions.

I've used about as much force as possible without using a separate tool which I'm reluctant to do. Not worth the possible superficial damage to the links. It's really not a big deal and doesn't affect how the bracelet wears on wrist. Let's see if I can get lucky.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JMSpivey said:


> Thanks Doc, I'll try the suggestions.
> 
> I've used about as much force as possible without using a separate tool which I'm reluctant to do. Not worth the possible superficial damage to the links. It's really not a big deal and doesn't affect how the bracelet wears on wrist. Let's see if I can get lucky.


Put some masking tape over the teeth of a set of pliers, then wrench away.

Mother is the invention of necessity, as they say.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Needs must...









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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

#NTHursday


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

JMSpivey said:


> A couple of the non-removable links of my BoR bracelet are stuck with no articulation. I’ve tried cleaning with water and added some lubrication but it won’t budge. Just normal wearing, no contact with anything harmful. Any recommendations on freeing the links would be helpful. Thanks.


This has happened to my Damasko bracelet. Usually padded or soft-jaw pliers do the trick but a few times I've had to soak the offending link(s) in a salt and vinegar solution. A couple days in the mixture and it comes apart by hand. This only works if rust is the issue. Not very likely - but possible - with the stainless steel bracelet. Doc's solution will work especially if you have access to an ultrasonic washer


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Needs must...


...when the devil drives.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> ...when the devil drives.


"Geezus take the wheel..."

It was the fall of 1995. Hurricane Opal was bearing down on the panhandle of Florida, still reeling from the effects of Hurricane Erin, just six weeks before.

Erin wasn't supposed to be as destructive as it turned out to be, which was very. Rather than evacuating, most people in the area stayed put, to their eventual regret. When Opal was predicted to be an even bigger storm, everyone in the area was pretty freaked out.

For reasons I still can't fathom or explain, our chain of command waited until the last possible moment to recognize the looming disaster, and give all the Rangers emergency leave to evacuate the area.

My good friend and completely insane wingman, Mehalko, and I jumped into my recently-purchased Plymouth Duster and started heading North as fast as we could, which wasn't very fast, given that the roads were now clogged bumper-to-bumper with people trying to get the eff out of Dodge.

It took us six hours to go 100 miles. We weren't even out of Georgia when the pounding rain caught up to us.

Whenever any of the guys from the Northeast drove home, we'd usually do it non-stop, taking turns at the wheel. But this time, it felt like we were in a race against the storm, just trying to stay ahead of the worst of it. We were running for our lives. No unnecessary stops. We take a piss when we get gas. We'll eat when we get to Philly.

We'd gotten as far as Virginia when I hydroplaned on I-95. My car did two full spins around, crossing back and forth across all three lanes, when it came to a stop in the middle lane...and was violently hit by a semi-truck full of cinder blocks a nanosecond later.

Literally, a 65 mile-per-hour juggernaut of steel and cement, hit us with the force of a bullet train.

We didn't fly through the air. Oh no. That would have been better.

The trucks tires went up over the back half of my car, crushing it like an empty beer can as the truck dragged us under it for however far it took for the truck to stop. Everything rear of the doors' edges was flattened, spitting our gear out like the last little bit of toothpaste.

Mehalko and I had to dodge traffic, like the eponymous avatar in the Frogger video game, to grab all our stuff spread out across a quarter mile of highway. Dead of night, pouring rain, Mehalko and I did the dance of death defiance.

Standing with our rucksacks, in the pouring rain along the side of I-95 North, we waited for the tow-truck, then hitched a ride from the repair shop to a local Army reserve base, where we hunkered down and tried to figure out our next move.

Mehalko took the opportunity to quiz me about what I did when I first felt the car's back end coming around.

"I tried to steer into the spin, like they taught us in driver's ed. Why? What do you do?"

"I just let go of the wheel."

"You WHAT!?!?!?"

He threw up his hands, palms out, like a perp surrendering to the cops.

"Yeah. Just let go. Like, 'Geezus take the wheel'..."

It truly is amazing I'm alive. I've been electrocuted, almost crushed, almost drowned, been in two "should be dead" sort of car wrecks, had a mid-air entanglement with another jumper in Airborne School, and was damn near decapitated by the side-mirror of a bus in Hong Kong. I once counted up all the times I'd almost been killed, and came up with more than half a dozen.

(Apparently the forum software won't let you use the correct spelling for "Geezus". Sorry, Latino men with that name.)


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Feels to me like a poor excuse for bad car control.

Ric


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

See no need to change. Thresher:


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I've been electrocuted,


Nah. You've been shocked. Electrocuted equals dead. 

Sorry. It's the electrician in me. I've been shocked so many times in my career I joke that 120v is like a cup of coffee. Now, 277v? That hurts like hell. Watched a guy p*ss himself after getting bit by it once.

One helluva story though. You are truly lucky.


----------



## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

What about 450VAC or 285VDC? Also, a precipitator power pack I had just adjusted to 14kVDC.

450VAC makes my armpits hurt. The VDC feels like I got socked. The kV I just remember a flash and being almost deaf for a few minutes.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Nah. You've been shocked. Electrocuted equals dead.
> 
> Sorry. It's the electrician in me. I've been shocked so many times in my career I joke that 120v is like a cup of coffee. Now, 277v? That hurts like hell. Watched a guy p*ss himself after getting bit by it once.
> 
> One helluva story though. You are truly lucky.


Well, whatever happened to me, it knocked me unconscious for a hot minute.

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Well, whatever happened to me, it knocked me unconscious for a hot minute.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Sounds like 277v


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Sounds like 277v


Well, I was only about three at the time, so it might have been less. 

My dad was painting the bedroom. The only thing in the room was an alarm clock and a pair of needle nose pliers, which I used to cut through the clock's cord.

Woke up to him bent over me, freaking out...

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Well, I was only about three at the time, so it might have been less.
> 
> My dad was painting the bedroom. The only thing in the room was an alarm clock and a pair of needle nose pliers, which I used to cut through the clock's cord.
> 
> ...


OK I laughed. 
And I don't feel bad about it. 

I'm sure when he realized you were alright you got the "bet you'll never do that again" speech. And as a 3yo, you didn't listen to a word of it. 

Also, corded alarm clock, 120v. Cutting through the cord caused a dead short. I bet dad was more pissed about his pliers than you blowing yourself up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> OK I laughed.
> And I don't feel bad about it.
> 
> I'm sure when he realized you were alright you got the "bet you'll never do that again" speech. And as a 3yo, you didn't listen to a word of it.
> ...


Correct. I was dead, and at only three, still very short.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The home videos Docs mom took of the incident.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> The home videos Docs mom took of the incident.
> View attachment 16722388


Then there was that time, still as a toddler, I tried to climb up the bookshelf that wasn't properly secured to the wall. I remember my dad freaking out that time, too, as the shelf came tumbling down on top of me.

When parents say kids are the reason their hair went gray, I know at least my dad isn't lying.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Then there was that time, still as a toddler, I tried to climb up the bookshelf that wasn't properly secured to the wall. I remember my dad freaking out that time, too, as the shelf came tumbling down on top of me.
> 
> When parents say kids are the reason their hair went gray, I know at least my dad isn't lying.


After a peewee hockey game I had the gumball get stuck at the bottom of the spiral track in one of these. 








Yes. I shook the sh*t out of it. 
Yes. It fell on me. 
No. It did not break spilling gumballs everywhere.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> After a peewee hockey game I had the gumball get stuck at the bottom of the spiral track in one of these.
> View attachment 16722472
> 
> Yes. I shook the sh*t out of it.
> ...


The glass on those things is the same as what they use on the space shuttle's windshield.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Suns out - bit of shiny bling required


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Craptastic pic alert!

This bezel color shifts A LOT depending on the light...






























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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Craptastic pic alert!
> 
> This bezel color shifts A LOT depending on the light...
> View attachment 16725359
> ...


Still slated for the end of July release?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Still slated for the end of July release?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Probably more like beginning to middle of July. QC's all done. We're waiting on the boxes (should be here Wednesday), and professional pics.

Plus we need to swap out a dozen oysters for the BOR's, so Dan's waiting to get those BOR's from our warehouse. Apparently I requested my vendor put all of them on oyster, then later decided to offer the BOR as an option.

Goddammed photographer lost his mind and decided to take a week's vacation, starting this Thursday, so...that might hold things up a minute. I mean...what sort of loon takes a vacation the week of July 4th? Madness, I say...

Overall, I think they turned out really well, considering we've never used this bezel color before. We did get samples of the bezel from our vendor, and while they do look "brown" (both the samples and the Mack's inserts), I think our illustrations don't really capture the color perfectly. I think it may be very close to the color of CuSn8 bronze. 

If you do an image search for the Halios Seaforth Bronze, in some pics, it looks more brown, whereas in others, it doesn't look much different from steel. The Mack's bezel can look brownish one instant, but a subtle shift in the light, and it looks almost gray. 

I don't THINK I'd like the bezel better if we used a different brown, like the one we use for the Barracuda and those Watch Gecko DevilRays. I think that's too dark for what we wanted. 

I'm glad I decided not to try to do a design with a matching dial color. I think that might have looked really strange.

The lume on them is spectacular.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Can't wait! It's been a while since I got excited about a watch. This has a cool feel about it. 

Pic of a watch....









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The stealth NTH. A small taste of what the Brian A. Mack will be, only better


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> The stealth NTH. A small taste of what the Brian A. Mack will be, only better
> 
> View attachment 16727913


You're already planning to swap the bezel on your Mack, aren't you?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I may have mentioned that the Miyota cal. 9075 GMT isn't yet widely available. This is a response I got from the Miyota employee handling brands in the US:

"I think your inquiry was about our GMT. For this caliber, the production is very limited right now and not supplied openly to the market. Please let me keep in touch so that I can put you in priority."

Translation: "We'll let you know when you can get it."

Welcome to my world as a brand owner.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

CuriousBob said:


> View attachment 16727925


What strap?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> You're already planning to swap the bezel on your Mack, aren't you?


The Mack, as it stands, is gorgeous. Hard to change that one. UNLESS you make a 12-hour in that Mack-bezel-color...


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## CuriousBob (May 29, 2015)

RotorRonin said:


> What strap?


Just a Ritche canvas strap that my boss bought and didn't like. If it's free, it's for me.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> [...]
> Welcome to my world as a brand owner.


How exiting that world must be! You can queue in lines we end customers don't even have access to!


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

dmjonez said:


> The stealth NTH. A small taste of what the Brian A. Mack will be, only better
> 
> View attachment 16727913


What NTH model is this?


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

Hey @docvail , any chance NTH will be releasing an aviation-themed watch? Maybe something not unlike the old Lew and Huey Phantom?


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Spectre III?

And here’s a picture of a watch.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeBanzai said:


> What NTH model is this?


It's a one-off frankenprotomod we assembled about four or five years ago.



MikeBanzai said:


> Hey @docvail , any chance NTH will be releasing an aviation-themed watch? Maybe something not unlike the old Lew and Huey Phantom?


You mean like the Scorpène? We're making more for delivery in September-October.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> It's a one-off frankenprotomod we assembled about four or five years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s a good looking watch. Do you think there will be a version with a 12hr bezel?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MikeBanzai said:


> What NTH model is this?


A collection of Sub parts. Doc sold some as a charity benefit a few years ago, and this one has been modded several times.
EDIT: I just now see that Doc already answered.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

MikeBanzai said:


> That’s a good looking watch. Do you think there will be a version with a 12hr bezel?


There was, it was called the Scorpene Nomad. You could always purchase a new one, a 12hr bezel, and do a bezel insert swap...

#NTHursday


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeBanzai said:


> That’s a good looking watch. Do you think there will be a version with a 12hr bezel?


There was, the Nomad, released in January 2020. Now sold out. It wasn't as popular as the standard 60-minute bezel version.









As Mike said, we sell the bezel inserts on our site, so you could buy one of the new ones we have coming this fall, and swap out the insert.









Replacement Bezel Inserts for NTH Subs


These bezel inserts will fit either the v.1 NTH Subs case, or the v.2 case. Bezel inserts are not returnable. All sales final. Please choose carefully. Use our website contact form for any questions. Insert dimensions: Inner diameter, 30mm. Outer diameter, 38mm. Inserts include pre-installed...




nthwatches.com





We also made one in sunburst blue, for a few different releases spanning from 2017 to January 2021:









And a white/full lume dial with rice-paper texture, in October 2020 (also now sold out):
















There are still 1 or 2 pieces of the blue available, at IntoWatch in Korea - https://www.intowatch.com/product/detail.html?product_no=89&cate_no=60&display_group=1

Email [email protected] to request they remove the Korean sales tax before you purchase.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> There was, the Nomad, released in January 2020. Now sold out. It wasn't as popular as the standard 60-minute bezel version.
> View attachment 16731635
> 
> 
> ...


I’ll look at their website, or just wait for the fall. I’m a pilot, so I like:
1) Aviation themed watches.
2) Watches with 12 hour bezels, (or 24 for a GMT watch). I actually use those features routinely.

Edit: how hard is changing a bezel?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

MikeBanzai said:


> Edit: how hard is changing a bezel?


I actually don't find it to be particularly easy, but it is straightforward. NTH provides instructions on how to do it, but I usually end up using a solvent of some kind, too.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeBanzai said:


> I’ll look at their website, or just wait for the fall. I’m a pilot, so I like:
> 1) Aviation themed watches.
> 2) Watches with 12 hour bezels, (or 24 for a GMT watch). I actually use those features routinely.
> 
> Edit: how hard is changing a bezel?


If you like the blue Scorpène, we make a blue 12 hour bezel for the Vanguard. Kind of surprised I haven't seen anyone put that combo together. The insert is the same blue on both models.











mconlonx said:


> I actually don't find it to be particularly easy, but it is straightforward. NTH provides instructions on how to do it, but I usually end up using a solvent of some kind, too.


It used to be easier, before our bezel insert supplier improved / increased the adhesive.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> If you like the blue Scorpène, we make a blue 12 hour bezel for the Vanguard. Kind of surprised I haven't seen anyone put that combo together. The insert is the same blue on both models.
> View attachment 16732270
> 
> 
> ...


That blue Scorpene in Korea is a very attractive watch, and I’m pondering on it, but I think in that aviation style I probably prefer the black. It’s more “traditional” I guess. Suppose I’ll need to sign up for email updates or something, and wait until the fall. (Good timing…I’ll just drop the hint to my wife for my birthday!)


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I'd like to put my turquoise Devil Ray on a mesh link bracelet. I have a 22mm Staib flat-link Milanese that I bought for my Scurfa Bell Diver 1, wore on my Legend Diver some, and found it looks pretty good on the Thresher. It's a very good bracelet. I have a 20mm shark mesh from Strapcode for my ocean blue Scurfa Diver One. It's a good fit for the light, quartz Scurfa.

Any photos of the Devil Ray on mesh you can share will be appreciated.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I'd like to put my turquoise Devil Ray on a mesh link bracelet. I have a 22mm Staib flat-link Milanese that I bought for my Scurfa Bell Diver 1, wore on my Legend Diver some, and found it looks pretty good on the Thresher. It's a very good bracelet. I have a 20mm shark mesh from Strapcode for my ocean blue Scurfa Diver One. It's a good fit for the light, quartz Scurfa.
> 
> Any photos of the Devil Ray on mesh you can share will be appreciated.











This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


I just got off the phone with our major telecom. They double charged me for December. It was extremely weird that I didn’t sit on hold for an hour. And they are applying a credit for January. Is it still 2021? I probably spend too much time on here, as I do remember all the nonsense from...




www.watchuseek.com












This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


It’s another #NTHursday Stirrin' slowly 'cross the sky




www.watchuseek.com





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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

Scorpène you say? 😍


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Pharos Phriday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

Just counting down and saving pennies for the next Scorpene release. Starting to drop subtle hints to the wife.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I just wish I could capture with my camera, the delightful play of light on this superb dial which I can see with my naked eye.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

mconlonx said:


> There was, it was called the Scorpene Nomad. You could always purchase a new one, a 12hr bezel, and do a bezel insert swap...
> 
> #NTHursday
> 
> ...


I just noticed that that’s a countdown bezel on top of being 12 hr. First: that’s really cool. Second: I hope the new black Scorpenes can take that when they come out. Third: somewhat importantly, is the bezel bi-directional? I’d probably get used to a unidirectional 12hr/countdown bezel, but bi-directional would be preferable.

But 12h PLUS countdown? Sign me up! This is the watch I’ve been looking for. Added incentive to hold out for the black as well, because I think that bezel would look better on the black dial than the blue.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

MikeBanzai said:


> I just noticed that that’s a countdown bezel on top of being 12 hr. First: that’s really cool. Second: I hope the new black Scorpenes can take that when they come out. Third: somewhat importantly, is the bezel bi-directional? I’d probably get used to a unidirectional 12hr/countdown bezel, but bi-directional would be preferable.
> 
> But 12h PLUS countdown? Sign me up! This is the watch I’ve been looking for. Added incentive to hold out for the black as well, because I think that bezel would look better on the black dial than the blue.


The new Scorpenes will take one of these bezels. For reference, it's off the Amphion Commando.

This one is bi-directional, because I modded it that way. But DO NOT DO THIS ON A NEW ONE! The case and bezel retention spring were modified to make the bezel largely non-removable. You WILL damage the bezel attempting to pry it off, and Doc does not sell replacement parts... especially for things he specifically says not to do. Like attempting to remove a bezel.

I will say that while it is now bi-directional, the action is nowhere near as crisp as it used to be as a uni-directional bezel. Trade offs.

Summary: would highly suggest you limit mod to just a bezel insert swap, if anything.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

mconlonx said:


> The new Scorpenes will take one of these bezels. For reference, it's off the Amphion Commando.
> 
> This one is bi-directional, because I modded it that way. But DO NOT DO THIS ON A NEW ONE! The case and bezel retention spring were modified to make the bezel largely non-removable. You WILL damage the bezel attempting to pry it off, and Doc does not sell replacement parts... especially for things he specifically says not to do. Like attempting to remove a bezel.
> 
> ...


Copy. Hopefully the new new ones in the fall do too. I see this bezel is available on the NTH website.

Step one: Get Scorpene in black if alternative bezels will work.
Step two: Buy bezel.
Step three: Take it to a professional so I don’t mess it up. And just accept the unidirectional bezel.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MikeBanzai said:


> Step three: Take it to a professional so I don’t mess it up. And just accept the unidirectional bezel.


There are lots of guys on here that can swap that bezel, and better than the "professional" in the local mall. When the time comes, mention it here, and someone will step up, I'm sure. Or I can help you find the right guy.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

dmjonez said:


> There are lots of guys on here that can swap that bezel, and better than the "professional" in the local mall. When the time comes, mention it here, and someone will step up, I'm sure. Or I can help you find the right guy.


Sounds good. Thanks!


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Thresher:









It's been the Thresher or a Seamaster for the past few weeks. Can't decide which is my favorite.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)




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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

Just pulled the trigger on a new Swiftsure Polar no date. The free Viton fitted rubber strap was a nice bonus. It'll be my third NTH in my collection. Looking forward to it's arrival.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

An old photo of my Scorpene Nomad since we are talking Scorpene's lately. I really liked the aviator look of the original but thought it looked a bit busy. When Doc was kind enough to release the Nomad, I jumped on it. I have not worn it lately, so perhaps that's the watch of the day for tomorrow for me.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

gokce said:


> An old photo of my Scorpene Nomad since we are talking Scorpene's lately. I really liked the aviator look of the original but thought it looked a bit busy. When Doc was kind enough to release the Nomad, I jumped on it. I have not worn it lately, so perhaps that's the watch of the day for tomorrow for me.
> 
> View attachment 16738019


Love it! Really wish I had known about these when they came out. However, the fall re-release will be just in time for my birthday.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Big_wrist said:


> Just pulled the trigger on a new Swiftsure Polar no date. The free Viton fitted rubber strap was a nice bonus. It'll be my third NTH in my collection. Looking forward to it's arrival.


Thanks for your order.

This saves us an email.

You want that strap in black or orange?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> ...thought it looked a bit busy...


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Thanks for your order.
> 
> This saves us an email.
> 
> You want that strap in black or orange?


Orange please.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

There is a brown Barracuda on the Norwegian CL equivalent (Finn) - no date, unfortunately, so I can't justify the purchase as a replacement for my Frankinvicta uhm modded sub homage. Very tempting nonetheless


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

-delete me-


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Big_wrist said:


> Orange please.


Done.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> There is a brown Barracuda on the Norwegian CL equivalent (Finn) - no date, unfortunately, so I can't justify the purchase as a replacement for my Frankinvicta uhm modded sub homage. Very tempting nonetheless


They're all no-dates.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Happy Independence Day, Americans!

Happy "finally rid of those ingrate, tax-dodging Colonials", Britons!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This story popped up randomly when I opened Firefox browser today, and caught my eye...









What's the deal with all those weird wrong-number texts?


Digging into the world of "pig-butchering" scams




maxread.substack.com


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> They're all no-dates.


What do I do now, my humble dream showed its true nature: a true ideal, impossible to reach! 
A broken man with broken dreams... unable to enjoy a watch without date as his daily. This is TV drama material right here!

(No I won't ask in the public forum what to buy)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Going red, white and blue with the NTH Nazario Azzurro for the 4th.









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## dreamingDiver (Oct 4, 2018)

Are there more Barracuda coming?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dreamingDiver said:


> Are there more Barracuda coming?


No time soon. Still some available from our retailers. 

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## dreamingDiver (Oct 4, 2018)

docvail said:


> No time soon. Still some available from our retailers.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


thanks. Only looking to get it from your retailer in Nz. As it falls a hair below the 1k tax limit of Au.

if i get it from HK, its a hair above 1k, so it may incur additional tax fee


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dreamingDiver said:


> thanks. Only looking to get it from your retailer in Nz. As it falls a hair below the 1k tax limit of Au.
> 
> if i get it from HK, its a hair above 1k, so it may incur additional tax fee


Get it from Serious in the EU. The price works out to be under AUD $1k ($900.71).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Of no real importance...

I bought two used NTH's today. I bought 4 others over the last 2 weeks, and at least half a dozen more since the beginning of the year. Some I bought here, more were through eBay, and one recently was via Reddit.

With the exception of one watch I bought on behalf of a friend who was looking for that specific model, they were all purchased for my site's Nearly New section. So, for all of these purchases, the condition needs to be excellent (and the one I bought for my friend also was), or whatever shortcomings there are, they need to be minor things we can easily / cheaply / quickly sort out, say, by replacing a bezel insert, or at most, a clasp. I take these likely costs into consideration when making my offers to the sellers.

In many cases, at least when buying from another forum member, I send the money via PayPal "friends and family", so I'd have no recourse if the buyer intended to screw me over.

In all of these transactions, I've paid less than 75% of the watch's new retail price, including all taxes, fees, shipping, etc. For me, if I can buy a used NTH in excellent condition for anything under 75% of the new price, it's a bargain. In some cases, I paid less than 60%, which is just insane, IMO, and I'm always surprised that the watches in question are still available, at those prices.

So far, all the transactions have gone pretty smoothly, with only the most minor hiccups here or there. All the watches were shipped and delivered in a timely way, and received in the condition described / expected.

One guy forgot to send us the links he took out of the bracelet, but we did get them eventually. I'm sure there's been something else amiss with some other purchase, but I can't think of what it may have been, so it must not have been too challenging a problem to solve. The last "big" problem I can recall with a used watch I bought was that one last year or the year before, which had a thoroughly mangled case-tube, forcing us to replace the case, which is not a small problem to solve when I'm trying to flip a used watch for a profit.

Maybe I'm just lucky, or I'm being more careful in my purchases (which I likely am), but I can't reconcile my own experience with the horror stories I've read about transactions conducted on these forums and elsewhere. Going back 10 years, I must have done 3 dozen private transactions, and I can only think of a handful that I'd describe as "problematic" in some way, and all of them were only marginally problematic, at worst.

In addition to the two instances mentioned above, one guy I sold a Tissot to wanted a partial refund ($25) because the watch apparently wasn't running well, and he suspected it needed a service. That's the only post-transaction problem I can remember with any of the used watches I've bought or sold through the forums. There was one guy who wasn't pleased with the condition of a Nearly New watch bought from my site. I can't remember if we had him send it back for a refund or if we just replaced the clasp for him (I think he was complaining about scuffs on the clasp).

That's it. Just three or four problems buying or selling a used watch, over dozens of transactions, and ten years. All minor issues, all easily and quickly solved.

More than once, I've had occasion to converse with a buyer or seller, to find out why someone would rather sell to me at a lower price, or buy from me at a higher price (via the Nearly New section of my site). Invariably, people I talk to cite the difficulties in conducting private transactions with other enthusiasts, and see dealing with me as being worth whatever value they're giving up.

But that just hasn't been my experience, generally. For the most part, I've found the vast majority of people to be straight-shooters.

Perhaps the sellers on the forum realize I own the NTH brand, and that I can be a loudmouth if occasion arises, and thus they're less likely to mess around with me. But sellers on eBay have no idea who I am, so I can't credit the "don't mess with Doc" explanation as being worth much.

Anyways...just relaying my own observations, for whatever they're worth.

If anyone wants to sell an excellent condition NTH for less than 75% of the new retail price, you know where to find me.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

What was retail price of a root beer Barracuda again? I can see myself in a business here...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> What was retail price of a root beer Barracuda again? I can see myself in a business here...


Most recent price was $700 on oyster, $725 on BOR. Today those would be $25 higher.

Looks like we sold out of them last September.


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Thanks - someone else took it for 67% - I guess with intercontinental shipping we'd be at the very edge of profitability. Also, the numbers of watches advertised in Norway is like two per year, so this won't scale to finance my yacht.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Thanks - someone else took it for 67% - I guess with intercontinental shipping we'd be at the very edge of profitability. Also, the numbers of watches advertised in Norway is like two per year, so this won't scale to finance my yacht.


I'll vouch for the seller on this one:









Delete**


Withdrawn. Delete.




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> What was retail price of a root beer Barracuda again? I can see myself in a business here...


I think the viability of making a business out of buying and selling used watches is pretty slim for most casual flippers. I know @uvalaw2005 was able to turn a nice profit over several dozen flips, but he was very disciplined about it, and even showed some talent for deal-making. I actually bought a couple pieces from him, one to keep, one to sell.

The difference between me selling someone a used NTH and someone selling me a used NTH is that someone else is most likely buying the watch to wear, whereas I'm buying it to sell (except for that one I bought from Gabe). If you're selling a used NTH, you want to sell it now, the sooner the better. If I'm selling it, I can wait as long as it takes for the buyer to come along. My timeline is almost indefinite.

If you're looking to buy a used NTH, you probably have some specific model in mind, and your choices will typically be pretty limited. I'm fairly agnostic about which models I buy, so I can cherry-pick as much as I like.

Any random seller on the forums, eBay, Facebook or Reddit only has their record of past transactions to rely upon, and perhaps the understood risk that arises from no one wanting a buyer to run around the internet saying bad things about them as a seller.

I on the other hand own the brand. People seem to have a higher level of trust in me as a seller, and I can offer assurances most other sellers would be hard-pressed to match. I have an in-house watchmaker who can inspect incoming pieces, and confirm they're in good condition and running well. I'm warrantying the purchase. I accept returns of used watches. Most sellers don't.

If you buy a used watch on my site, you can use a credit card, or PayPal, Apple pay, Google pay, Amazon pay, whatever. You can even pay it off in installments if you want. You can cash in loyalty rewards points if you have them. If you buy from the forums, Reddit, or Facebook, your choices are mostly limited to PayPal and cash transfer apps, or unwieldy bank wires and the like.

It's not like I make a ton of money with the Nearly New watches. It's a little extra profit to offer an additional service / value / convenience, and an additional way to differentiate my brand from all the others.

Going back to when I started, just over two years ago, it appears we've sold about 60, and only had half a dozen pieces returned. I can easily live with a 90% permanent placement rate, especially when all those returned pieces were still eventually sold, and with half those returns, the customer was either buying a new piece, or I kept 10% of the original sale price.

Most sellers would curse and gnash their teeth if they had to deal with 1 in 10 buyers who wanted to reverse a transaction after delivery, and had to issue a full refund.

Doing things the way I am, it would be very hard for me to lose money. The way most flippers operate, it's very hard for them to make money.


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I'd be fishing in channels you don't, with the sole purpose of selling to you. So all the advantages apply (I could even wait until I have accumulated multiple watches for you, to reduce shipping costs per piece), but my margin is slimmer because my benefit has to fit under your limit you are willing to pay. Oh, and those channels are basically empty. My business model is not very viable...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

uvalaw2005 said:


> What if we've had 23 come through our hands, but are down to zero?
> 
> View attachment 16523326
> 
> ...


I think we may have a tie, except I still own all 23 DocWatches and we share a common blue Scorpene you sold to me,,,

[if an Atticus counts as a DocWatch, I have 24]

NTH list 21 (4Gilt gold)

5 +1 Amphion 

vintage black date
vintage blue no-date
modern date
Commando date
vintage Gilt date
Kiger MilSub

5 Barracuda 

blue date (gold indices/hands are Not Gilt)
brown no-date modded bezel bought pre-owned
vintage Gilt date
white, metal bezel no-date
Black DLC Gilt no-date (SeriousWatchesNED)

Santa Fe - no-date with modded snowflake hands bought pre-owned
Bahia - no-date
Carolina - Gilt no-date
Catalina - no date
Nacken vintage black no-date
Nazario Sauro
Zwaardvis orange dial
Tikuna date
Scorpène blue
Scorpène PVD white dial

Plus 2 Orthos with date, red and grey/white [and an Atticus Meteora]


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> You'd need 299, since it would be a new case.
> 
> No way I'd use the ST19 again. Doubt I'd do quartz or meca-quartz. Probably use the Seiko NE88/86.
> 
> Do you think the world is ready for a $1200 NTH chrono? Feels like a big ask to me.


Don’t count-out the meca-quartz. Scooped up several different brands recently (Hoffman, Seiko, Pagani, Tactical Frog, etc.), and enjoy wearing them and using them as race timers often. There’s a lot of variety out there. Join the party.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Still the best NTH Sub that never was , my “Amphicuda” shinning in the sunshine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He did, sort of, but he only made ten Vintage Blue Amphion:


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

yankeexpress said:


> I think we may have a tie, except I still own all 23 DocWatches and we share a common blue Scorpene you sold to me,,,
> 
> [if an Atticus counts as a DocWatch, I have 24]
> 
> ...


Well played, and great to see you around here again.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

@uvalaw2005 @yankeexpress 

Good to see/read from both of you!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> I think we may have a tie, except I still own all 23 DocWatches and we share a common blue Scorpene you sold to me,,,
> 
> [if an Atticus counts as a DocWatch, I have 24]
> 
> ...


Grand Champion.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Don’t count-out the meca-quartz. Scooped up several different brands recently (Hoffman, Seiko, Pagani, Tactical Frog, etc.), and enjoy wearing them and using them as race timers often. There’s a lot of variety out there. Join the party.


Meh. No real interest in making a meca-quartz chrono.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Not a great photo but captured 7:07:07 on 07/07 for #NTHursday.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Old pic of a favorite NTH


----------



## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

Happy #NTHursday. I picked up this Nacken V1 from a fellow WUS member and love it. I think it's an older model as it doesn't have the full articulating oyster bracelet and it has the smaller clasp with the three micro adjust. Also this movement has the ghost date adjust position as opposed to my new Barracuda which doesn't.

Also happy to find out that my new Polar Swiftsure is arriving today earlier than expected (thumbs up to USPS). Also fitting that its on a NTHursday.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

yankeexpress said:


> He did, sort of, but he only made ten Vintage Blue Amphion:


Yeah, I bought one of those Vintage Blue Amphions but I found the dial to be too dark. So I went and bought a Barracuda Blue and did a case swap. Then I went and did a hand swap too after I bought a Santa Cruz. Now they are all mixed up:

Amphion Blue case/bezel, Barracuda dial, aftermarket gilt sword hands

Santa Cruz case/bezel/dial, Amphion vintage blue sword hands 

Barracuda Blue case/bezel, Amphion blue dial, Santa Cruz mercedes hands

That last one has become the unwanted leftovers watch, with all my favourite parts going in the other two 











Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

yankeexpress said:


> if an Atticus counts as a DocWatch, I have 24
> ...
> and an Atticus Meteora


Only one Atticus??? I'm shocked!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Big_wrist said:


> Happy #NTHursday. I picked up this Nacken V1 from a fellow WUS member and love it. I think it's an older model as it doesn't have the full articulating oyster bracelet and it has the smaller clasp with the three micro adjust. Also this movement has the ghost date adjust position as opposed to my new Barracuda which doesn't.
> 
> Also happy to find out that my new Polar Swiftsure is arriving today earlier than expected (thumbs up to USPS). Also fitting that its on a NTHursday.
> View attachment 16745365


@RotorRonin is jealous of your pantone, bruh.


----------



## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Newbie here. I'm a very big fan of the vintage Tudor Black Bay 58 design, but I'm just not really feeling that there is the _need_ to spend that kind of money to have a great watch!

So, after a lot of study and searching around, and after nearly buying the very impressive San Martin SN008-G V3 Tudor Black Bay homage $457 with Sellita SN200, I decided to go with Chris' Barracuda Vintage Black, with the "beads of rice" bracelet.

I think this choice will nicely scratch my Tudor Black Bay 58 "itch" - certainly for the time being, anyway.  (Ha! antiquated expression: "for the time being".)

Ordered today...
can't wait for arrival,
exquisite watch,
just my style!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I feel like I haven't seen @yankeexpress around here in more than a year...


----------



## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

DesertArt said:


> Newbie here. I'm a big fan of the vintage Tudor Black Bay, but not looking to spend big bucks. So after a lot of searching around, and nearly buying the San Martin SN008-G V3 Tudor Black Bay homage $457 with Sellita SN200, I decided to go with Chris' Barracuda Vintage Black, with rice bead bracelet. I think this will nicely scratch my Tudor Black Bay itch - for a while, anyway.
> 
> Ordered today... can't wait for the arrival. Beautiful watch - just my style!


Good choice!


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Do I understand correctly that there won't be any new v1 subs? So if I want that case I will have to browse the retailers or go used?
Same thing with the BoR for the v1 case?


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

VH944 said:


> Do I understand correctly that there won't be any new v1 subs? So if I want that case I will have to browse the retailers or go used?
> Same thing with the BoR for the v1 case?


I believe that is correct for the v1 case. For the BoR the bracelets are compatible between the v1 and v2 cases so that is not an issue.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Do I understand correctly that there won't be any new v1 subs? So if I want that case I will have to browse the retailers or go used?
> Same thing with the BoR for the v1 case?


Never say never, but, for the foreseeable future, we have no plans to make more of the v.1's. 

There are still a handful available at IntoWatch in Korea, and Five:45 in New Zealand. We also have a handful in our Nearly New section.


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Yep, Nearly New won't ship to me... again a dream I can't reach. I've inquired 5:45, fingers crossed.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Never say never, but, for the foreseeable future, we have no plans to make more of the v.1's.


Maybe you should re-work that NTH video that praises the absence of crown guards ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Yep, Nearly New won't ship to me... again a dream I can't reach. I've inquired 5:45, fingers crossed.


Yeah, sorry. I forgot the Nearly New section is limited to in-US customers. My bad.

EDIT/PS - Jun, the owner of IntoWatch, is very responsive, and speaks fluent English. If you email [email protected] before making a purchase, he'll remove the Korean sales tax from your order price. 

He's currently got the widest selection of v.1 Subs, including the last of the Skipjack, last Bahias, last Scorpène Blues, last Vanguard, and last Näcken Modern Blue.









인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Maybe you should re-work that NTH video that praises the absence of crown guards ...


Meh.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hot off the presses...


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Looks great, take my money!


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> Yeah, sorry. I forgot the Nearly New section is limited to in-US customers. My bad.
> 
> EDIT/PS - Jun, [...]
> He's currently got the widest selection of v.1 Subs, including the last of the Skipjack, last Bahias, last Scorpène Blues, last Vanguard, and last Näcken Modern Blue.


Don't be sorry. I am aware of Jun's shop and services, it's just that I have a specific combo on my mind. All I want to know is how NZ is doing their prices: is there any VAT already included or not? If yes, can it be deducted for overseas?
(Don't get me wrong, I am rather ok with paying Norwegian VAT, it's just that I don't like the concept of paying VAT to two nations for the same item, stacked on top of each other)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Don't be sorry. I am aware of Jun's shop and services, it's just that I have a specific combo on my mind. All I want to know is how NZ is doing their prices: is there any VAT already included or not? If yes, can it be deducted for overseas?
> (Don't get me wrong, I am rather ok with paying Norwegian VAT, it's just that I don't like the concept of paying VAT to two nations for the same item, stacked on top of each other)


I think NZ has a 15% GST, which I presume would be built into their prices. You may be able to get them to deduct it for you. I'm not sure.

That said, their advertised price of NZD 1095 on the Renegade equates to USD $678, which is $22 less than what we were selling it for when we had them in stock, and $47 less than we'd be selling them for now.


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

NZ VAT or not, they don't ship to Norway neither  

Your watches, Doc, are just like illegal drugs: you can read about it everywhere, parents are worried that their kids get it on the school yard, you can find traces in politicians' restrooms- but if you are pretty vanilla you can't just go and buy some.
Your can find me over at WPAC


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> NZ VAT or not, they don't ship to Norway neither
> 
> Your watches, Doc, are just like illegal drugs: you can read about it everywhere, parents are worried that their kids get it on the school yard, you can find traces in politicians' restrooms- but if you are pretty vanilla you can't just go and buy some.
> Your can find me over at WPAC


Be fair. 

It's easier to get illegal drugs.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

If only I had a watch with a count-down bezel function ...


----------



## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

It’s 16:35 and the day trippers should be packing up about now so time to head off and walk the dog on the beach! 🏖


----------



## ShoreFire77 (Apr 27, 2015)

Hey Doc, any news on the WatchGecko vintage subs? I remember you saying a while back you'd have some more details in 3-4 weeks, but I'm too lazy to read back and see if that was 3-4 weeks ago. Thanks!

Oh, and the new Mack looks awesome by the way. 👌😃


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ShoreFire77 said:


> Hey Doc, any news on the WatchGecko vintage subs? I remember you saying a while back you'd have some more details in 3-4 weeks, but I'm too lazy to read back and see if that was 3-4 weeks ago. Thanks!
> 
> Oh, and the new Mack looks awesome by the way. 👌😃


Mid-August release. Keep an eye on the NTH and Watch Gecko social media pages for more teasers to come.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Hot off the presses...
> View attachment 16749067
> View attachment 16749070
> View attachment 16749071
> ...


When can I/we buy? 14 or 15th?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> When can I/we buy? 14 or 15th?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Now, if you want, but we probably won't be able to ship until Tuesday or Wednesday, at the earliest.









The Mack


30 ATM Diving Watch, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Now, if you want, but we probably won't be able to ship until Tuesday or Wednesday, at the earliest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ordered!

No date, beads of rice. 

My first NTH/L&H/Janis watch!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Now, if you want, but we probably won't be able to ship until Tuesday or Wednesday, at the earliest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ordered as well!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

#bluebezelmonday #bluemarkermonday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Good news, gents who ordered a Mack.

I just received a message from the warehouse, telling me they received the Macks into inventory, and they are processing all orders for shipment ASAP.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Circling back to the "who's got the most NTH's?" sub-topic...

He hasn't been on WUS in five years, but @OmegaCosmicMan popped up on my radar when he ordered a Mack. With the Mack joining the fam, he'll have (or at least have had) eight NTH's and one L&H.

That's not including any pieces he may have purchased used.

Respect.


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


>


These look awesome, wish I hadn't spent so much money on watches already this year.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> These look awesome, wish I hadn't spent so much money on watches already this year.


You can always make more money. We won't always make more watches.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

A good friend told me "to have is better than not to have". Directly led to me buying two NTHs in a month (Kiger and Amphion). Since then I aspire to live by his wisdom.


----------



## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> A good friend told me "to have is better than not to have". Directly led to me buying two NTHs in a month (Kiger and Amphion). Since then I aspire to live by his wisdom.


----------



## loesch (Aug 21, 2019)

Hi @docvail. I have been following your newsletters for years now waiting for the right watch to be the first NTH in my collection. The Mack ticked all the boxes so I was quick to purchase one immediately when I got the email. I noticed that in the publication for the release it was mentioned that there are only 25 no-date's and 25 date's. This can't be correct given that it's still on sale. I'm just wondering if these are in fact going to be limited in number? Thank you.



docvail said:


> Hot off the presses...
> View attachment 16749067
> View attachment 16749070
> View attachment 16749071
> ...


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Hey Doc, get a load of this. Dive watch uses different colors for a depth gauge for the first time EVER!

Amazing no one else thought of it before now. 









Introducing The Magically Simple ArtyA Depth Gauge Dive Watch


✓ ArtyA releases a new dive watch ✓ Featuring the world's first depth-measuring dial ✓ A simple, science-based solution ✓ Check it out! ✓




www.fratellowatches.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

loesch said:


> Hi @docvail. I have been following your newsletters for years now waiting for the right watch to be the first NTH in my collection. The Mack ticked all the boxes so I was quick to purchase one immediately when I got the email. I noticed that in the publication for the release it was mentioned that there are only 25 no-date's and 25 date's. This can't be correct given that it's still on sale. I'm just wondering if these are in fact going to be limited in number? Thank you.


Curious to know why you think that it cannot possibly be correct, that these are limited to the numbers stated, just because they have not sold out in [checks release date...] 2 days?


----------



## loesch (Aug 21, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> Curious to know why you think that it cannot possibly be correct, that these are limited to the numbers stated, just because they have not sold out in [checks release date...] 2 days?


Well, I don't. Maybe I shouldn't have phrased it like that but 50 just seems like such a low number I would expect that to go pretty much immediately. It seems that way with limited edition, anything these days. 397 different people have posted on this thread alone. I'm sure thousands subscribe to their newsletter. I just thought maybe that was either a typo, or else they were just referring to the first batch being 50. Either way, it sure will be cool to have a watch I probably will never see another person wearing.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

loesch said:


> Well, I don't. Maybe I shouldn't have phrased it like that but 50 just seems like such a low number I would expect that to go pretty much immediately. It seems that way with limited edition, anything these days. 397 different people have posted on this thread alone. I'm sure thousands subscribe to their newsletter. I just thought maybe that was either a typo, or else they were just referring to the first batch being 50. Either way, it sure will be cool to have a watch I probably will never see another person wearing.


True enough, but some perspective:

Seiko can get $750 for a limited edition of a popular model, produced in the thousands, and sell out in hours. Zelos regularly sells out of popular $350 models within minutes of release. Helm has a waiting list of something like 2000 for their $350 Vanuatu Ti. And all those are valid ways of very obviously, successfully marketing and selling watches.

But Doc has explained this in the past. Pricing for NTH is what it is so he can make a living doing this, not as a side gig, but as his main breadwinner job. You'll find some people take issue with the price based on spec comparisons with other microbrands and Chinese direct to consumer sales models. He's been clear that his goal is to turnover inventory within 90 days. As such, there's a fine economic supply/demand/pricing line to walk.

Personally, I think he does a great job with pricing... even if I don't buy every NTH release I might want, as a result. They don't sell out instantly, which means more people who want them have a better chance to pick one up. Popular models sell out within a month or two. Less popular models take a bit longer. I bought a Scorpene Nomad right away, just in case, but I believe there were models to purchase new up a year+ later.


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

The 400 people here are distributed across years, many post only a couple of times to have a question answered, and in contrast to other brands, we don't buy every. single. release.
NTH is currently launching like five batches (counting date/no date as one batch), the are only few people who have the means or desire to acquire all of them.
50 per batch is not especially small for micro brands (hence the name), and some models/brands take quite a while to sell all of them - some brands never make it beyond the first model...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

[/engage humor mode...]



loesch said:


> Hi @docvail. I have been following your newsletters for years now waiting for the right watch to be the first NTH in my collection. The Mack ticked all the boxes so I was quick to purchase one immediately when I got the email. I noticed that in the publication for the release it was mentioned that there are only 25 no-date's and 25 date's. This can't be correct given that it's still on sale. I'm just wondering if these are in fact going to be limited in number? Thank you.














Ike2 said:


> Hey Doc, get a load of this. Dive watch uses different colors for a depth gauge for the first time EVER!
> 
> Amazing no one else thought of it before now.
> 
> ...


Still not as bad as this one. The guys behind this brand knocked off the DevilRay, got called out for it on Facebook, denied it, then ultimately changed the design anyway, despite "not doing anything wrong"...








Audric, a New Brand Based in Singapore, Unveils their SeaBorne 500 Diver - Worn & Wound


Audric is a new, small watch brand based in Singapore and set to launch their first watch, the SeaBorne 500, on Kickstarter. The SeaBorne enters a crowded field of competitively priced dive watches, but possesses a certain flair and style that sets it apart. It’s one of the truisms of the...




wornandwound.com





Props to @X2-Elijah for calling BS in the comments:











mconlonx said:


> Curious to know why you think that it cannot possibly be correct, that these are limited to the numbers stated, just because they have not sold out in [checks release date...] 2 days?


----------



## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Personally, I think he does a great job with pricing...


Easily worth $80 IMHO 😂


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

[/engage serious mode...]

Easiest one first...



Ike2 said:


> Hey Doc, get a load of this. Dive watch uses different colors for a depth gauge for the first time EVER!
> 
> Amazing no one else thought of it before now.
> 
> ...


Alright, seriously...don't remember when exactly it was, but at some point I came to the conclusion that the "horological press" was largely worthless.

There are a handful of guys trying to do good work, by way of reviews, previews, or industry commentary. But the vast majority of people commenting on anything watch-related are no-talent hacks and shills.

There, I said it. Fight me.

That said, that ArtyA watch is a competent enough design, and an interesting enough take on the concept of putting a color-based depth gauge on the dial. No, they weren't the first. I think NTH was the first to put it on the DIAL (not the bezel), but I may be wrong.

It doesn't matter. Credit. No credit. Nothing really changes in the bigger scheme of things. We just keep chugging along, doing what we do. My goal is for people to look back and say we did good work.



loesch said:


> Hi @docvail. I have been following your newsletters for years now waiting for the right watch to be the first NTH in my collection. The Mack ticked all the boxes so I was quick to purchase one immediately when I got the email. I noticed that in the publication for the release it was mentioned that there are only 25 no-date's and 25 date's. This can't be correct given that it's still on sale. I'm just wondering if these are in fact going to be limited in number? Thank you.





mconlonx said:


> Curious to know why you think that it cannot possibly be correct, that these are limited to the numbers stated, just because they have not sold out in [checks release date...] 2 days?





loesch said:


> Well, I don't. Maybe I shouldn't have phrased it like that but 50 just seems like such a low number I would expect that to go pretty much immediately. It seems that way with limited edition, anything these days. 397 different people have posted on this thread alone. I'm sure thousands subscribe to their newsletter. I just thought maybe that was either a typo, or else they were just referring to the first batch being 50. Either way, it sure will be cool to have a watch I probably will never see another person wearing.





mconlonx said:


> True enough, but some perspective:
> 
> Seiko can get $750 for a limited edition of a popular model, produced in the thousands, and sell out in hours. Zelos regularly sells out of popular $350 models within minutes of release. Helm has a waiting list of something like 2000 for their $350 Vanuatu Ti. And all those are valid ways of very obviously, successfully marketing and selling watches.
> 
> ...





VH944 said:


> The 400 people here are distributed across years, many post only a couple of times to have a question answered, and in contrast to other brands, we don't buy every. single. release.
> NTH is currently launching like five batches (counting date/no date as one batch), the are only few people who have the means or desire to acquire all of them.
> 50 per batch is not especially small for micro brands (hence the name), and some models/brands take quite a while to sell all of them - some brands never make it beyond the first model...


Alright, so...

1. Everything NTH makes is "limited production", in the sense that we don't just turn the machines on, and keeping making the same models, unchanged, forever. I'd argue that EVERY manufactured product is like that. Nothing gets made, unchanged, forever. How many exactly will be made, ultimately, depends on how many the manufacturer decides to make before they change the product or just stop making it.

2. Sometimes, we'll do something that is expressly "limited *EDITION*". In my view, this means that the product will be made one time, in VERY limited (read: "much lower") numbers. The challenge I have doing that is two fold:

A - Almost everything we make is made in pretty low numbers anyway.​B - I don't like limiting the sales potential of a new design which might prove to be wildly successful. Why say we'll only make 25 or 50 if we could sell 100 or 200?​​3. Our MOQ on dials, a key component, is 50 pieces per version. So, if we make a design with and without a date, we're making 100 dials, 50 date, and 50 no-date. But we'll typically just assemble 50 pieces- 25 with date, and 25 no-date, TO START.

If the first 50 sell out in an instant, I'll order the other 50 to be assembled right away. The longer it takes us to sell the first 25 or 50 pieces of something, the longer I'll wait before we make more.

So, when we say, "we made 25 of each", we made 25 of each, but we have tentative plans for another 25 of each at some point in the future, and we might possibly make even more, if a design proves to be popular enough to warrant it.

4. NTH isn't Zelos, Halios, Helm, Obris Morgan, or any other brand that sells out of every new release within minutes of opening sales. Nothing against any other brand, those included. The owners of those other brands are free to run their businesses as they see fit.

Some brand owners deliberately under-price their products, as a substitute for promotion, and as a way to reduce the risk that they'll be left with unsold inventory, forcing them to discount prices, which hurts the brand's image. Instead of risking unsold inventory and being forced to discount that inventory in the future, they'll front-load the discounts by under-pricing the product up front, especially through "pre-orders".

Some other brand owners are just doing this part-time, don't really need the money, and aren't looking to complicate their lives by increasing their production volume. Their businesses are basically just side-hustles for them.

NTH is different. This is my full-time job. The business has to run smoothly, and profitably. I could make more watches, and sell them for less, but I'd be working harder, to make less money. Why would I want to do that?

That's not an entirely (yet is mostly) a rhetorical question. A good friend of mine, a fellow micro-brand owner, recently sold his business, but not before it nearly killed him (literally, not figuratively). In his quest to rapidly grow his business (which he did), he ruined his health with the stress of it all, causing him to have some sort of mini-stroke.

This guy is more than 10 years my junior, and he almost died in the pursuit of building a business the outside world would admire because of its size. In the end, he wasn't making any more money than I've been making, despite doing six times the volume my business does. To any observer, he was the picture of success, but he was burned out years ago, and was relieved to exit the arena.

That will not be me. I'm not here to compare d1ck sizes with other business owners. I'm playing a different game, with different rules. And I'm winning.

I have a methodology to setting prices, and determining production volume, which seems to have been validated, repeatedly, over several years, dozens of productions, and roughly 10,000 watches sold. When you look at the availability of ALL versions of ALL models, you'll see that some sell out sooner than others, but generally, we've been able to successfully align supply and demand with our pricing, such that getting an NTH isn't an exercise in frustration for our customers.

If you want some NTH model, no matter which model it is, you always have more than a few minutes or hours from release to order it. Odds are, you probably have 3-6 months, give or take, before it's gone, maybe for good, or maybe just for a while.

Yes, we charge more. Full stop. If you want the best value, go play that "hope I get my order in before they sell out" game with some other brand. Part of what you're paying for with NTH is the convenience of being able to take your time with a purchase, and having a more relaxing customer experience.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

loesch said:


> Hi @docvail. I have been following your newsletters for years now waiting for the right watch to be the first NTH in my collection. The Mack ticked all the boxes so I was quick to purchase one immediately when I got the email. I noticed that in the publication for the release it was mentioned that there are only 25 no-date's and 25 date's. This can't be correct given that it's still on sale. I'm just wondering if these are in fact going to be limited in number? Thank you.


PS to all the above - thanks for buying a Mack. It should ship today or tomorrow. Welcome to the NTH fam. Let us know if the watch gives you any trouble (like, it doesn't run well, not ordering lots of pay-per-view and eating all the leftovers). Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Snaggletooth said:


> Easily worth $80 IMHO 😂


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PPS to the above, re, production numbers...

For the Subs, I have one spreadsheet that shows me the total number we've made for all Subs versions, across all productions, going back to 2016.

I haven't built any spreadsheets to track production numbers across multiple productions for all the other models, just the Subs. 

Reasons (for those who'd ask, "why don't you do that for all models?):

1. For the 2K1's, I know what the numbers are off the top of my head.
2. For the Tropics, we changed the designs from the v.1's to the v.2's, and it's easy enough for me to go back and look at the numbers for those 2 productions.
3. For the DevilRays, similar to the Tropics, I can look up the numbers for the v.1's and v.2's pretty easily (though we're nearing the point I should probably create a consolidated list).

For the Subs, we're around 5,000 pieces produced since 2016, across 52 different designs (date and no-date versions combined as one design). The average number produced of each version (date and no-date combined) is around 100 pieces. The median (middle value) is 55, and the mode (most often occurring value) is 50. 

If we want to drill down into date vs no-date numbers - the average with-date number is 36, and the median is 25. For some reason I can't remember, I didn't bother calculating the mode on the with-dates. The average for no-dates is 63, the median is 47.5, and the mode is 25.

There you go, nerds.

We've made 800 of the Nacken Modern Blue, in all its incarnations, since 2017. We've made 450 of the Barracuda Vintage Black, since 2019. If you understand maths, you can intuit that for many of the remaining 50 versions, we made fewer than 100 pieces. The lowest number we've produced of any design was 20 pieces. 

So, as I said - everything we make is "limited production", but I don't always know in advance what we'll limit to 25 pieces, and what might warrant 250 pieces. Like @mconlonx said, if you see something you like, you should jump on it like a fat kid on a candy bar, because there's no telling when or if we'll make more of it.

"But what about those models you said you only made 5 pieces of, like those DLC models, Doc?"

Bro - if we make 50 dials, and used 25 in assembly, we might have assembled 20 in stainless cases, and 5 in DLC cases, but we still made 25 of them, total, ya dig? 

I just calculated the mode on the with-dates, and it was zero, because for a lot of models, we only made them as no-dates, which is why the mode on the with-dates is useless as an indicator of anything.

There you go, nerds.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of eating all the leftovers, TRUE STORY...

TL / DR - If you don't already have kids, don't have them. They're the worst...

Mrs. Doc and I went out for dinner Sunday. For my main course, I ordered an artisanal pizza - a three-cheese white pizza topped with prosciutto, arugula, and drizzled with truffle sauce. I only ate two slices, because we also had appetizers, salad, and bread on the table. So I brought the other six slices home.

That night, I ate one slice for a snack, and I had two yesterday for lunch, leaving me three slices - one for a snack last night, and two for lunch today. Or, at least that was my plan.

Mrs. Doc turned in around 11 last night. I stayed up to watch some more TV. Ten minutes later, my 16 year old emerged from his lair, and went hunting for food in the kitchen.

"Dad, can I eat these three slices of pizza?"

"No. I'm saving them for my lunch tomorrow." (It's none of his business if I planned to eat a slice as soon as he returned to his room.)

"But I didn't eat dinner."

Okay, first off - he's lying. He spent the day and most of the evening at his girlfriend's house. Her family is Brazilian, and apparently that means they eat like Hobbits - first dinner at 2 or 3, then second dinner at 8 or 9. The boy didn't get home until after 9, and there's ZERO chance his girlfriend's mom didn't feed him at least once, if not twice.

"Fine, you can have one slice. Find something else to eat. Your mother made meatloaf, and there's other stuff in there."

I wasn't being a jerk. I've caught this kid eating an entire box of cereal out of a cake-mixing bowl at 2am and making himself four-course meals at noon. He didn't NEED to eat my pizza.

So he wraps up whatever he's doing in the kitchen, and returns to his room. Ten minutes later, I get up to get myself a snack. I look in the pizza box, and sure enough, there are two slices left, but that little bastard took all the toppings off them, leaving me nothing but crust and cheese.

Today, he denied removing any of my toppings, and also denied eating at his girlfriend's.

Pic of girlfriend for attention...


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## loesch (Aug 21, 2019)

docvail said:


> [/engage serious mode...]
> 
> Easiest one first...
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for the thoughtful and transparent response. Apologies for sounding like I was calling you a lier. It was more of a NO WAY THAT'S POSSIBLE instead of a YOU'RE A LIER. haha. I was just genuinely curious how it didn't sell out immediately, assumed you operated like Helm and those guys (not that there's anything wrong with that), and the answer either way wouldn't have changed my opinion. Like I said, I bet I won't see another one and that's just plain cool! It's a sweet frickin watch and I can't wait until it gets here! Just got the shipping notice. Woot!!


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Speaking of eating all the leftovers, TRUE STORY...
> 
> TL / DR - If you don't already have kids, don't have them. They're the worst...
> 
> ...


You're too nice. 16?

When my 14 y/o comes home from a friend's house after dinner and says "I didn't eat dinner", I say "tough, sounds like you made a choice", because I know there is zero chance that dinner wasn't served over there if they stayed that late. In fact, if they're staying that late, I always check. 

No way am I letting her get into my artisanal pizza because she made a choice to goof off with her friend rather than eat.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I want a Mack very much but just can't swing it with some health stuff going on in my life now. I think it exemplifies the military watch exceptionally. With NTH, I know that it's possible that I can wait and there may still be a few available in a couple of months. That's not the case with other brands for whatever reason. I also want the with-date version so I have that going for me as I imagine that one will stick around a bit longer. I also know that 25 and 25 is (or must be) an initial production run and there probably a chance that more - or some comparable version - would be produced later. The point of this, I _know_ I'll be able to get a Mack. I just don't know when. Again, that's not the case for every brand out there for whatever reason.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

loesch said:


> Thanks a lot for the thoughtful and transparent response. Apologies for sounding like I was calling you a lier. It was more of a NO WAY THAT'S POSSIBLE instead of a YOU'RE A LIER. haha. I was just genuinely curious how it didn't sell out immediately, assumed you operated like Helm and those guys (not that there's anything wrong with that), and the answer either way wouldn't have changed my opinion. Like I said, I bet I won't see another one and that's just plain cool! It's a sweet frickin watch and I can't wait until it gets here! Just got the shipping notice. Woot!!


I didn't think you were calling me a liar. That's why I used [/engage humor mode].

It's all good. I rarely know in advance what's going to be a big hit, and what won't be. The last time I was supremely confident about a new release was when we first produced the Barracuda Vintage Black in January 2019. 

That was the last time I KNEW something was gonna be a hit. I'd have bet my left...well, let's just say I was certain we had a winner.

The way many brands, especially microbrands, sell out instantly has warped market expectations regarding what's "normal". 

Selling out instantly isn't "normal" for a business, no matter how many microbrands do it. By definition, it means the supply isn't enough to meet demand, most likely because the price is too low. The business is leaving money on the table, at a minimum, and could conceivably be running the business on margins too thin for the business to remain viable. 

We made 50 Macks because we wanted to make both a with-date and a no-date version, and we typically assemble 25 pieces of each whenever we do that. There's no mystery to it.



MikeBanzai said:


> You're too nice. 16?
> 
> When my 14 y/o comes home from a friend's house after dinner and says "I didn't eat dinner", I say "tough, sounds like you made a choice", because I know there is zero chance that dinner wasn't served over there if they stayed that late. In fact, if they're staying that late, I always check.
> 
> No way am I letting her get into my artisanal pizza because she made a choice to goof off with her friend rather than eat.


I am too nice. Everyone's always saying so...



josiahg52 said:


> I want a Mack very much but just can't swing it with some health stuff going on in my life now. I think it exemplifies the military watch exceptionally. With NTH, I know that it's possible that I can wait and there may still be a few available in a couple of months. That's not the case with other brands for whatever reason. I also want the with-date version so I have that going for me as I imagine that one will stick around a bit longer. I also know that 25 and 25 is (or must be) an initial production run and there probably a chance that more - or some comparable version - would be produced later. The point of this, I _know_ I'll be able to get a Mack. I just don't know when. Again, that's not the case for every brand out there for whatever reason.


So far, all the Mack sales have been no-date, which isn't unusual for NTH in general, but I figured with a field-watch design like the Mack, we'd see people revolt if we didn't make it with a date. I'm a little surprised we haven't sold any with-dates yet.

Anyway, if I was a gamblin' man (and I am), I'd wager the with-date will hang around at least a couple of months.

My goal when we started production was to sell the first 50 before the end of the year, and another 50 next year. If it takes us the rest of this year to sell the first 50, so be it, because I wasn't planning to make more this year anyway.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

@docvail

Sorry to ask, because I know you have posted it. I cannot find it though.

Can you re-share the link to donate to the Mack family?

Thanks


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> @docvail
> 
> Sorry to ask, because I know you have posted it. I cannot find it though.
> 
> ...





https://www.givesendgo.com/themack


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> https://www.givesendgo.com/themack


Many thanks sir, you are doing a good thing


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> [/engage humor mode...]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I couldn’t resist calling the writer out in the comments for not knowing about the NTH DR. He has not deigned to reply. I agree the featured watch has a nice enough design, but $13k?!? Fuhgeddaboutit. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Ike2 said:


> Well I couldn’t resist calling the writer out in the comments for not knowing about the NTH DR. He has not deigned to reply. I agree the featured watch has a nice enough design, but $13k?!? Fuhgeddaboutit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I forgot to mention the ArtyA won’t even let me dive at the depth where whales hunt giant squid! And that’s basically my whole raison d’etre right there…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Have y'all been watching these rioters take over the presidential palace in Sri Lanka?

I just saw some video on the news, showing some dude using the president's leg-press machine.

I love that. In spite of the entire country falling into ruin and chaos, there's at least one hard-core gym rat who refuses to skip leg day.

Faith in humanity, restored.

Check out Homey doing preacher curls, at about the 1:50 mark...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Well I couldn’t resist calling the writer out in the comments for not knowing about the NTH DR. He has not deigned to reply. I agree the featured watch has a nice enough design, but $13k?!? Fuhgeddaboutit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's $13k???

Is it filled with unicorn farts and Ukrainian aid packages?


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> It's $13k???
> 
> Is it filled with unicorn farts and Ukrainian aid packages?


Hah. 12,900 CHF. There’s a sucker born every minute I guess. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> So far, all the Mack sales have been no-date, which isn't unusual for NTH in general, but I figured with a field-watch design like the Mack, we'd see people revolt if we didn't make it with a date. I'm a little surprised we haven't sold any with-dates yet.
> 
> Anyway, if I was a gamblin' man (and I am), I'd wager the with-date will hang around at least a couple of months.


That's good news (for me) but I hope they sell well, and I think they will




Ike2 said:


> Well I couldn’t resist calling the writer out in the comments for not knowing about the NTH DR. He has not deigned to reply. I agree the featured watch has a nice enough design, but $13k?!? Fuhgeddaboutit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You did good and $13k for that is crazy.

Wore my DR on a Strapcode mesh today.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Check out Homey doing preacher curls, at about the 1:50 mark...


What kinda video is this?? I can't tell what watch he's wearing!!!

(On the plus side, my Mack arrives Monday ...)


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Props to @X2-Elijah for calling BS in the comments:
> View attachment 16756290


Yw.

Idk if it is still the same, but iirc around 2019/20 for whatever godforsaken reason worn&wound was really staunchly anti-NTH with a lot of their coverage (especially around the time when they were otherwise extremely bullish and prolific about microbrand coverage). That particular one wasn't really an anti-nth example, but there were quite a few other cases of clear omission and avoidance.


Anyways... afterh aving stepped away from the "watch world" for a bit, it kinda gets blatantly obvious how meaningless most (all) watch media articles are. It's just an industry of veiled promotions, nothing else. At least on youtube it's explicit, in "print" they try to pretend at being journalistic.

P.S. 
The Mack is a pretty nice watch. Looks good. Don't fret about those "omg it didn't sell out in 5 minutes from launch" people.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yw.
> 
> Idk if it is still the same, but iirc around 2019/20 for whatever godforsaken reason worn&wound was really staunchly anti-NTH with a lot of their coverage (especially around the time when they were otherwise extremely bullish and prolific about microbrand coverage). That particular one wasn't really an anti-nth example, but there were quite a few other cases of clear omission and avoidance.
> 
> ...


Worn & Wound blackballed me around 2014-2015. And no, it isn't just my imagination. I've confirmed it a few ways.

I'm still honestly unsure why, but I have a hunch. I think it was on the request of the guy who started Red Bar, after he refused to return some samples I'd sent him.

I don't think anyone was taking a jab at me because the Mack didn't sell out instantly. The one comment seemed like genuine surprise.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack out for delivery! Usps coming up clutch before my long weekend!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Mack out for delivery! Usps coming up clutch before my long weekend!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Looks like more than a few Macks are to be delivered today.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> iirc around 2019/20





docvail said:


> around 2014-2015.


Well fk now I feel old.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

josiahg52 said:


> Wore my DR on a Strapcode mesh today.
> View attachment 16759112


20mm mesh?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

X2-Elijah said:


> 20mm mesh?


Yes. Their shark mesh bracelet.


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

Another #NTHursday! I would have gotten a Mack if I hadn’t gotten this beauty. Been wearing it for almost a week and it’s been great. Running very well.

The Mack and the black Scorpene coming out in September are the next two I have my heart set on. Probably more likely to pick up a Scorpene based on timing and availability.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Big Mack in the house!








Link to my IG Vid unboxing








Jim L/ kpjimmy on Instagram: "#newwatchalert ! This time is the new @nthwatches #mackwatch. A cool project watch that gives homage and appropriate "Nod To Him" in this instance. A great cause all around. I am honored to wear a watch that means so much to everyone involved to create this watch. You can check out the NTH site to read the story and donate if you can. Thanks for watching!"


Jim L/ kpjimmy shared a post on Instagram: "#newwatchalert ! This time is the new @nthwatches #mackwatch. A cool project watch that gives homage and appropriate "Nod To Him" in this instance. A great cause all around. I am honored to wear a watch that means so much to everyone involved to create...




tinyurl.com




Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Mine also arrived, 4 days early!








Doesn't look that way in the pic, but the bracelet is unsized; all plastic is still on, awaiting the conclusion of my standard 24-hour timing test for all new watches.

It's passed all other checks so far with flying colors: crown action, bezel action, clasp action, hand alignment (3,6,9,12), bezel alignment (0,15,30,45), lume brightness & evenness (though not yet in a fully dark room).

Looking foward to wearing it tomorrow!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - Mack deliveries...

@Horoticus , Nate, @yankeexpress , @loesch , Rob - yours are all delivered. Where are the pics?


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ME: "Where are all the Mack pics at?"

@MuckyMark : [jams DevilRay in your face...]


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...Miyota GMT...

Just got done talking to a guy from Miyota. 

According to him, production of the 9075 is EXTREMELY limited, and all the production this year is spoken for. 

We'll see if the big bear can get his paws on some GMT's sometime next year.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Speaking about designs being inspired by others, I just came across this new Spinnaker Spence model, which suspiciously looks like an NTH Sub v. 1: SPENCE SP-5097 UNVEIL

40 mm width, 10.9 thickness, 300 m water resistance, Miyota 9039 movement, etc.


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

I'm an idiot. Can someone explain to me the differences between the v1 & v2 Sub cases? Thanks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> Speaking about designs being inspired by others, I just came across this new Spinnaker Spence model, which suspiciously looks like an NTH Sub v. 1: SPENCE SP-5097 UNVEIL
> 
> 40 mm width, 10.9 thickness, 300 m water resistance, Miyota 9039 movement, etc.


Same bezel edge as the v.1 Subs. No crown guards like the v.1 Subs. Same ovoid bracelet links. Same clasp. Looks like the same profile as the v.1 Subs.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> I'm an idiot. Can someone explain to me the differences between the v1 & v2 Sub cases? Thanks.


v.1 = no crown guards, gear-tooth bezel edge, bezel and mid-case are both 40mm wide.
















v.2 = crown guards, scalloped bezel edge, bezel is slightly wider than the mid-case. Case walls are slightly taller, but same overall thickness.


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> v.1 = no crown guards, gear-tooth bezel edge, bezel and mid-case are both 40mm wide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh! Thanks man!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> Ahh! Thanks man!


Sho' 'nuff.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Off to a lakehouse to drink and pass out by the lake









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

The *Mack* is here.... 










(bezel in _Countdown mode_....) 










A few shots...










A worthy tribute.... 











_(And even the little 13-24 numbers are illuminated...)_ 


But I need to say something. 
How much more would it raise the cost of the watch to have polished, faceted watch hands instead of the flat brushed hands?


Praise. 
I love the V2 case. Excellent job. Beautiful. And of course the exquisite lack of thickness in the case design.
The bracelet? A superb rendering of flexibility, comfort and light weight.
The finish? Flawless!
And the ease of this purchase (and the others as well)? Simple and satisfying....as always.

Thanks, Doc

Enjoy your time!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Mine's on wrist now after my self-imposed mandatory 24-hour movement test period (running at an excellent +3.5s/d so far ...), here are some quick pics:


























I went with the BOR because I already have plenty of watches with oysters, but I think it may be a bit too blingy to match well with the military/tool aesthetic of the watch itself.

So I tried a leather strap off of my Zelos Comet:









Looks pretty good to me.

I also tried a brown Erika's Original (that's been in my of Box of Misfit Watchbands since I bought it years ago for a watch that turned out not to match at all), but I re-discovered the sad fact that I just don't like the fit and feel of it ... I did not snap a pic, sorry!

But poking around in the Box turned up the original one-piece cloth strap from my Timex Weekender ...









I love the texture on this! Color is a great match! I think we have a winner!


(And some day I should probably get some shirts without frayed cuffs ...)


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Avo said:


> [...]
> (And some day I should probably get some shirts without frayed cuffs ...)


Nah, this is adding ruggediddity to the whole of your appearance: "it's tough being my shirt"


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Off to a lakehouse to drink and pass out by the lake
> View attachment 16763406
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Awesome strap pairing, with that color!

Have fun passing out!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> The *Mack* is here....
> 
> View attachment 16763957
> 
> ...


I thought we lumed all the minute markers too, but maybe I was wrong.

Re - the hands - 

1. I'm pretty sure the hands are faceted, not flat, though with some hand styles, it's hard to tell.

2. Polishing them wouldn't cost any more. 

As a general rule, I like brushed metallic frames on hands and applied indices better, as polished finishes frequently seem to look like cheap chrome plating, and we always seem to find minor imperfections in them, such as light hairline scratches or tool marks on the edges.

We'll sometimes use a polished finish anyway, depending on the design, but with more toolish designs, I think brushed finishes are a more appropriate choice.

Otherwise, I'm glad you like it, brother.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Mine's on wrist now after my self-imposed mandatory 24-hour movement test period (running at an excellent +3.5s/d so far ...), here are some quick pics:
> View attachment 16764063
> 
> View attachment 16764065
> ...


Another great color match with that weekender strap.

Way back in the day (20+ years ago), when I was wearing a fake Sub* with my dress shirts, all my cuffs were frayed, but especially the left one, which I eventually deduced was due to the Sub's scalloped bezel.

Fashion always exacts its price.

*See what happened to the fake Sub here - How to Modify a Watch - The Moflake - The Time Bum


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I will get my Mack on the BOR.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Have y'all been watching these rioters take over the presidential palace in Sri Lanka?
> 
> I just saw some video on the news, showing some dude using the president's leg-press machine.
> 
> ...


Never skip leg day. Ever


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Scratching my Tudor Black Bay itch...


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

Beach. Blanket. Bingo.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> View attachment 16765432
> 
> Beach. Blanket. Bingo.


You still need to apply sunblock...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Much as I like the beads of rice bracelet... I think this Barracuda Tudor BB homage suits my style much better with the Nato. This watch is a looker, indeed.

Twenty-five minutes ago in Scottsdale, AZ.










I need to learn the tips to shorten the NATO so I won't have that big fold going on the other side of my wrist. Just cut and burn the edge... basically, I guess.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

DesertArt said:


> I need to learn the tips to shorten the NATO so I won't have that big fold going on the other side of my wrist. Just cut and burn the edge... basically, I guess.


So, I usually take two quarters (use nickels if you want a rounder end), place on either side of the strap, and hold them together with a strong clip. Trace the curve, unclip, and cut with a very sharp blade. Then, put the coins back on and clip together again, exposing just a half-millimeter or so. Use a torch lighter and run it over the curve of the strap to seal it. The coins help prevent the flame from hitting anything other than the end of the strap.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alright, this may or may not be the booze talking, but NTH customers are the best in the world.

Fight me!!!

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Fight me!!!


Flag pole. During lunch. Be there or I'll tell the whole school what a wuss you are.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Flag pole. During lunch. Be there or I'll tell the whole school what a wuss you are.


Bruh.









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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Bruh.
> View attachment 16765980
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Think youre a tough guy, do ya?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Alright, this may or may not be the booze talking, but NTH customers are the best in the world.
> 
> Fight me!!!
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Maybe it's the booze talking, but it might be because you're an awesome brand ambassador and owner.

Fight me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Maybe it's the booze talking, but it might be because you're an awesome brand ambassador and owner.
> 
> Fight me.


True story....

I'm standing outside the bar tonight, keeping my homey company while he smokes, because that's the kind of bro I am.

Random dude walks by, and his watch falls off right in front of me. Spring bar popped out of his Seiko SKX bracelet clasp.

Chris to the rescue. Pull my phone. Get the flashlight going, find his spring bar, and showed him how to get it back in.

Because not all drunks wear capes...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

RotorRonin said:


> So, I usually take two quarters (use nickels if you want a rounder end), place on either side of the strap, and hold them together with a strong clip. Trace the curve, unclip, and cut with a very sharp blade. Then, put the coins back on and clip together again, exposing just a half-millimeter or so. Use a torch lighter and run it over the curve of the strap to seal it. The coins help prevent the flame from hitting anything other than the end of the strap.


RR... thank you for that! I did just as you described. Worked a treat. I went further, though, and decided to go with a Zulu style - cleaner and simpler. I do like NATOs and ZULUs... so now I'm shopping around for a couple more to play with!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> True story....
> 
> 
> I'm standing outside the bar tonight, keeping my homey company while he smokes, because that's the kind of bro I am.
> ...


Medic!! Medic!! I need a medic over here! Seiko dude is down….


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

DesertArt said:


> Much as I like the beads of rice bracelet... I think this Barracuda Tudor BB homage suits my style much better with the Nato. This watch is a looker, indeed.
> 
> Twenty-five minutes ago in Scottsdale, AZ.
> 
> ...


Just in case you haven't discovered them, the MN style straps don't have that extra bit...
Lots of brands from cheap to expensive. My favorite is Watch Steward.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

DesertArt said:


> RR... thank you for that! I did just as you described. Worked a treat. I went further, though, and decided to go with a Zulu style - cleaner and simpler. I do like NATOs and ZULUs... so now I'm shopping around for a couple more to play with!


I do that with all of my straps! Cut off the extra flap, shorten the length, and boom... perfect.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

dmjonez said:


> Just in case you haven't discovered them, the MN style straps don't have that extra bit...
> Lots of brands from cheap to expensive. My favorite is Watch Steward.
> View attachment 16766496


dmj... thank you for that information. Looks pretty cool. Is there a particular source that you like to go to for acquiring them? I would like to go and have a look at them.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)




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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> True story....
> 
> I'm standing outside the bar tonight, keeping my homey company while he smokes, because that's the kind of bro I am.
> 
> ...


There goes my hero, watch him as he goes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

DesertArt said:


> dmj... thank you for that information. Looks pretty cool. Is there a particular source that you like to go to for acquiring them? I would like to go and have a look at them.


Cheapest NATO Straps for the cheap cheap. Watch Steward for mid. Erika's Originals for the high end. 

Another MN elastic "style" is the hook strap from Nick Mankey Designs. Under $40 for a quality product. Downside is it's a one man show with high demand. So stupid long lead times. 

I just got my first this past Friday, delivery 10wks to the day after ordering. But it's so damn comfortable I've got plans for at least two more already. I'm waiting until the 20th though, as it looks like he's got another LE he's gonna drop.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> There goes my hero, watch him as he goes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bravo! Nicely done.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

DesertArt said:


> dmj... thank you for that information. Looks pretty cool. Is there a particular source that you like to go to for acquiring them? I would like to go and have a look at them.


This guy is my fav. The Watch Steward

And @TheBearded covered the rest. Google is the quickest path...


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

_(My strap order arrived too) _ 











_Breaking in_ a Haveston "Corps Canvas" Strap...._(I really like these...) 
_











Yep, it is wet still. I wash them a couple of times with a mild detergent and warm water.











It helps to soften the strap up a bit, as they are somewhat stiff when new out-of-the-box.

They conform nicely if you wear them wet and let them dry slowly.

Have a Great Day....Enjoy Your Time. 



p.s. Strap Info: Haveston Corps Canvas M-1944C


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> _(My strap order arrived too) _
> 
> View attachment 16767538
> 
> ...


This looks great. Thanks for the info! I just looked through all their offerings,
and now I don't know if I should get the 1944 (like yours), 
the 1943, the 1918, or the Bakelite!
When it is dry, please take a few pictures of it, 
and maybe speak to the quality and comfort.
I'm not used to wearing single-pass straps, especially of heavy canvas.
I did recently get the Helm (2 piece) canvas khaki which I like a lot.
THANKS


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I went diving for the first time, thought I'd better wear a proper diving watch.... Tada


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

#TheMackMonday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Just snagged that n/d black Swiftsure from Toppers. They offer an additional 10% off, so it turned out to be a pretty good deal, IMO. Should be here Wednesday.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Just passing through



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RonaldUlyssesSwanson said:


> Just snagged that n/d black Swiftsure from Toppers. They offer an additional 10% off, so it turned out to be a pretty good deal, IMO. Should be here Wednesday.


Who is Toppers?

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

watchman600 said:


> This looks great. Thanks for the info! I just looked through all their offerings,
> and now I don't know if I should get the 1944 (like yours),
> the 1943, the 1918, or the Bakelite!
> When it is dry, please take a few pictures of it,
> ...


Roger, Will Do a little later....


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Who is Toppers?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Topper jewelers. I think they’re a forum sponsor. Some of their listings pop up on Recon.









Pre-Owned NTH Swiftsure - Black


This pre-owned watch is in 90% condition due to slight marks on the sides and back of the case. The bracelet is in 92% condition due to slight marks on the links and clasp. This watch comes with its inner and outer box, and the one-year Topper Pre-Owned Select warranty. Specifications Movement...




topperjewelers.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone in the US on the lookout for a grey Watch Gecko DevilRay?

This one on eBay might go cheap.

Looks like it might benefit from a good cleaning, though...









NTH Devil Ray Watch Gecko Vintage Grey Edition | eBay


From My personal collection. In excellent condition. Watch Strap OptionSteel. Watch Lug Width22mm. Watch Case ColourSilver. Watch Strap316L Stainless steel. Apologies for the final photo. That was for a Squale GMT watch that has already sold.



www.ebay.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> Speaking about designs being inspired by others, I just came across this new Spinnaker Spence model, which suspiciously looks like an NTH Sub v. 1: SPENCE SP-5097 UNVEIL
> 
> 40 mm width, 10.9 thickness, 300 m water resistance, Miyota 9039 movement, etc.


Flattery is the most imitation sincerity...or something like that.









RUSTY: "I feel like I've been hacked..."

Not the first time this has happened to NTH. It's not even the first time it's happened with the v.1 Subs. 









The DevilRay was also knocked off, not once, but twice. So was the L&H Acionna, and arguably, the Riccardo.

My favorite will always be the Maiale Brava Gente version of the DevilRay, with its pig-face logo and fixed / completely non-functional GMT bezel...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> And speaking of fire-sales - I saw what you did with that 1 of 1 Scorp DLC. Hope the guy who bought it at least threw in a shoulder rub...





RotorRonin said:


> I'm gonna do more than rub this Scorpene, Doc!
> 
> Unfortunately that means this will soon be a 0 of 1 Scorp.


The 0 of 1 Scorpene NTH x BSH "Darth Mariana" is done, and it's... perfection.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think I'm looking for advice. Not sure. Maybe just venting....

The vast majority of support requests we get are pretty straightforward, and generally fall into a handful of groupings which would all fall under the general heading of "things we've seen before." But there's a small percentage which, for lack of a better term, I'll dub "a bit unusual", or even "welp, that's a first."

Now, I'd also say the vast majority of customers are honest, straight-shooters. But, again, there's a small percentage of people who are dishonest, and will attempt to take advantage if they can.

When the vast majority of support requests we get are things we've seen before, from people who seem to be telling the truth, the vast majority of requests are pretty easily handled. But, when something seems "a bit unusual", if not unheard of, it also frequently seems that we're prompted to wonder if the customer is telling us the entire truth. 

Which is why we have the policies we do. Over time, I've tried to get away from allowing myself to wonder, much less argue over, whether or not someone is telling the truth. The policies are there to alleviate me from having to call someone's story into question. Instead, I try to maintain an "agnostic" view of things - I neither believe nor disbelieve the story, until we have more / enough information to feel VERY confident one way or the other.

That said, sometimes I'll end up communicating with someone, in one of these situations, and I get the sense that I'm either being challenged to come right out and call the person a liar, which I obviously don't want to do, or that at the very least, they're questioning what I'm telling them about the process or policy, which often just leads us to being a bit more skeptical of the story.

In the simplest (and extreme, though only by degrees), hypothetical example: "The watch arrived in pieces, a week ago. How do I return it for a refund? What? What do you mean you want me to send it back to you, so you can determine how this happened, before you agree to a refund? Are you suggesting the watch DIDN'T arrive in pieces, as I said?"

Is it POSSIBLE the watch arrived in pieces? I mean, sure, anything is POSSIBLE. It's also POSSIBLE the watch arrived in perfect condition, and you took a crowbar to it. That's why I want to get the watch back to our shop for inspection, before I roll over and let you dry hump me until my wallet falls out of my pocket.

Again, that's an EXTREME and HYPOTHETICAL example, but...not extremely far removed from some of what I've seen over the years. The bottom line is that, the more unusual the report, the harder it is for us to credit it as being completely true, yet sometimes these reports do in fact turn out to be true. For everything we've ever seen, there was a first time we saw it, and in some instances, we didn't know whether or not to believe it, until we had a chance to figure it out.

Like, I recently had a guy who snapped the crown on his v.2 Sub shortly after it was delivered. That's very unusual. Then, after we fixed it, he snapped it again. That's very suspicious. Turns out the case tube wasn't mounted straight in the case. He wasn't BS'ing us, though I spent more than a few minutes thinking he might have been.

I suppose where I'm going with this is I sometimes struggle to respond to these situations in such a way that I don't sound suspicious, when I think it would be reasonable if I was suspicious, and when the customer's portion of the exchange seems to suggest he's challenging me to admit I'm suspicious, without them coming out and saying or doing anything that, say, a credit card or PayPal chargeback dispute adjudicator might see as obviously suspicious, if not downright ridiculous, if I were to send them a screen-shot of the message exchange.

How do you say, "your story smells like it could be BS. Send us back the watch so we can prove it, or disprove it," without the other party taking offense?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> The 0 of 1 Scorpene NTH x BSH "Darth Mariana" is done, and it's... perfection.


Looks like the dial is crooked within the case.

That, or the bezel is misaligned.

Too late, no chargebacks!

And...speaking of one-of-whatever DLC NTH Subs...









Nth Sub Scorpene DLC with White Full Lume Dial, No Date


One of five. Like new, full kit. Cannot find a wear mark on it anywhere. Worn only sparingly. Just clocked it at -1.9 seconds per day. Asking $500 via Zelle or Paypal f&f, either of which includes insured shipping anywhere in the U.S. only. DM me for payment details. No trade offers please.




www.watchuseek.com


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Howdy All, 

Here are a few photos of the Mack fitted with the Haveston Corps Canvas Strap (that were requested).

The Haveston Corps Canvas is a somewhat longer strap.










In this first photo, you can see it alongside a gray 22mm canvas strap (also from Haveston).
_(I prefer the canvas keepers, but the gray strap was only available with the stainless keepers- like a NATO)_










There are a lot of adjustment holes - you can see that they are delineated and bordered by stitching that lines each hole and secures the woven canvas threads. You can also see the strap has a sharply pointed end - this could be shortened or modified, but you would need to stitch the new end to secure the canvas threads from un-raveling...No 'quicky melting' here folks - this might be a consideration if you don't like the pointed end. And if you have a smaller wrist, it may be kind of a challenge to figure out how to manage the extra length.

The gray strap is one that I have had for a year or so, and is worn during Fall-Winter-Spring with the MKII in the first picture, so it has been worn a fair amount. It does not show wear yet, other than some fading on the outer surface. One of the things I like about the canvas, is the way that it 'ages' - especially compared to the nylon straps - It seems more natural.




















In the second set of photos, you can see the two canvas keepers. The first one, nearest the buckle is fixed and won't move around. The other is a 'floater"- you can adjust it a little over an inch-and-half (39 cm?) positioning it to suit your preference - important because of the length of the strap and the pointed end. That double-layer that allows the keeper to float is especially stiff when new out of the package. Soaking the strap in some warm water and then washing it by hand with some mild detergent, helps the fabric to 'relax' quite a bit, and helps it become more 'conforming' and much more comfortable to wear. As the canvas is worn, it becomes 'softer' and more flexible. And for dirt, just wash it with warm water and mild detergent or hand soap and let it air-dry.

Haveston fits a nice branded buckle that can be changed if you want to. I like the vintage thumbnail-type buckles, but this works well. It is a 'longer' buckle, helping to make it somewhat easier to manipulate when securing or removing.




















In the third set of photos you can see how the strap conforms to the back of the watch case. When attaching the strap, especially when new, it can be a bit of a challenge as the spring bars will need to be removed, the strap then placed into the lug recess firmly and held in place while the spring bar is re-inserted over it. This is much easier with a new strap if you have soaked it and it is not fully dried yet. I used the spring bars NTH provides with the bracelet for these photos. (Back in 'my stash' in Oregon, I have a great selection of shoulderless, long-pin spring bars, but I am away from them right now....) So these work fine.

I like to wear my straps 'loose' relatively speaking (I am a few months away from 69, and the old flesh is not as firm and muscular as it once was). My left wrist size is 7.75 inches, but it does get larger when I am doing anything with tools or a lot of movement of my fingers, arm etc. The canvas is 'grippy' on the skin compared to the slickness of nylon and the other synthetic weaves, so the canvas can be worn a 'little looser' and not allow the watch to 'slip around' or rotate around my wrist so much.










I have included the remainder of the photos so you can see the color of the strap in different lighting at different angles. All of it is natural sunlight; there are some clouds that are making some odd reflections in the crystal, and the way the light filters down through the boughs above has an effect too.









































The last photo is taken inside where the light is filtered and softened and shaded coming through the window on the front of the house.











If you made it to the end of this, Congratulations! and Thank You for your Attention and Patience! 

_-- (Apologies for the length.) -- _

Enjoy Your Time, Folks -- Be Well.


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

docvail said:


> I think I'm looking for advice. Not sure. Maybe just venting....
> 
> The vast majority of support requests we get are pretty straightforward, and generally fall into a handful of groupings which would all fall under the general heading of "things we've seen before." But there's a small percentage which, for lack of a better term, I'll dub "a bit unusual", or even "welp, that's a first."
> 
> ...


How about this....
"I want to make sure that you are satisfied with our product. We inspect and check all of our product before it is sent to customers, but we are humans too, and it is possible that something was missed during that inspection. We have seen some odd and unusual circumstances, but obviously we have not seen it all yet. Yours sounds like a problem that we have not experienced before. In order to solve that problem, it is necessary for us to be able to examine your watch very closely in order to determine how this (or these) defect (s) arose, and how to remedy them so that this cannot happen again. Please return the watch and we will inspect it further, in order to determine what the best possible remedy is. You have my personal assurance that we will act on this just as soon as we receive your watch and we will respond to you with a proposal as soon as we can personally verify the problem(s) you have described."


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Off-Topic Story...
One time I had ordered something on eBay. The item was a small thing worth about maybe $25 or so, a part for a computer that I was working on. The seller was in Florida, I was in Anchorage, Alaska at the time. Time passed nothing was received, when it should have been a week. Communication with the seller indicated a package had been sent, with a tracking number etc. What I received at the Post Office almost a month later was a plastic bag with a hole in it; the bag was partially full of dirty water. The bag had a address label on it that was mostly unreadable, completely water damaged and ink had dissolved - it had an "Official USPS Notice" attached to it... NOTICE: THIS PACKAGING WAS RECEIVED WITHOUT CONTENTS...(or something very similar to that - this was 25 years ago) ...I mean, WTF are you supposed to do about that? Anyway....


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

"That's unfortunate, we are sorry. The QA would like like to figure out what went awry, please send it [details]"

You are offering a next step, you are not blaming either side, and you are vaguely implying that something went wrong without admitting/accusing.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I think I'm looking for advice. Not sure. Maybe just venting....
> 
> The vast majority of support requests we get are pretty straightforward, and generally fall into a handful of groupings which would all fall under the general heading of "things we've seen before." But there's a small percentage which, for lack of a better term, I'll dub "a bit unusual", or even "welp, that's a first."
> 
> ...


Most folks appreciate a straight shooter. I know I do.

You can always save this post, tuck it somewhere on your hard drive and attach it to your, "I'm not sure if I believe you, yet" email.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Looks like the dial is crooked within the case.
> 
> That, or the bezel is misaligned.
> 
> ...


Must be angle of the photo. On wrist, it's dead-centered! But to anyone considering modding... Doc ain't kidding, this 100% voids the warranty. And should! 

But anyone on the fence about the DLC case... grab the one linked. It's worth it! 

Speaking of cases, Doc, will there be opportunity to buy crowns on the website to complete the cases?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Must be angle of the photo. On wrist, it's dead-centered! But to anyone considering modding... Doc ain't kidding, this 100% voids the warranty. And should!
> 
> But anyone on the fence about the DLC case... grab the one linked. It's worth it!
> 
> Speaking of cases, Doc, will there be opportunity to buy crowns on the website to complete the cases?


The case is complete, with crown.

What are you asking me? Why would you need a crown?

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

RotorRonin said:


> The 0 of 1 Scorpene NTH x BSH "Darth Mariana" is done, and it's... perfection.


Uh... say, what did you do with the original dial and hands...?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Uh... say, what did you do with the original dial and hands...?


Sending them to you, apparently. Messaged you. 



docvail said:


> What are you asking me? Why would you need a crown?


(Deleted link)

Says it doesn't come with a crown or movement spacer.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Is it POSSIBLE the watch arrived in pieces? I mean, sure, anything is POSSIBLE. It's also POSSIBLE the watch arrived in perfect condition, and you took a crowbar to it. *That's why I want to get the watch back to our shop for inspection, before I roll over and let you dry hump me until my wallet falls out of my pocket.*


What a visual. Doc... that IS hilarious! 🤣 ROFL. You really are a great, creative story teller/writer. You could quit your day job and just write!


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

I am currently basking in the sense of achievement that follows "putting the rubber strap" on my DevilRay. Managed it with only a single spring bar casualty and without giving up, not even once. 
Holiday watch choices have been made , though likely to change twice between now and leaving in the morning.


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

gavindavie said:


> I am currently basking in the sense of achievement that follows "putting the rubber strap" on my DevilRay. Managed it with only a single spring bar casualty and without giving up, not even once.
> Holiday watch choices have been made , though likely to change twice between now and leaving in the morning.


It really is an achievement. Very tight tolerances!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Amphion Commando, hard at work:


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> View attachment 16771195


I walked that bridge just this past Spring...


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> I walked that bridge just this past Spring...


That bridge is the center of my typical wander. All of my favorite places are within a 30 minute walk from there...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Sending them to you, apparently. Messaged you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That product page shouldn't be find-able on the site. It's a replacement v.1 case, for folks who somehow manage to need one, or someone who pops up with one of the bad-batch cases from 2019.

If you needed a replacement case, then you wouldn't need a crown or spacer, because you'd have them from your original case.

I'm not selling mod parts or kits.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> How about this....
> "I want to make sure that you are satisfied with our product. We inspect and check all of our product before it is sent to customers, but we are humans too, and it is possible that something was missed during that inspection. We have seen some odd and unusual circumstances, but obviously we have not seen it all yet. Yours sounds like a problem that we have not experienced before. In order to solve that problem, it is necessary for us to be able to examine your watch very closely in order to determine how this (or these) defect (s) arose, and how to remedy them so that this cannot happen again. Please return the watch and we will inspect it further, in order to determine what the best possible remedy is. You have my personal assurance that we will act on this just as soon as we receive your watch and we will respond to you with a proposal as soon as we can personally verify the problem(s) you have described."


A little wordy (yes, I'm aware of the irony here). 

Other than that, the tone isn't bad, though I try to avoid using the word "defect", as it implies that we shipped a watch that shouldn't have passed QC.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> Off-Topic Story...
> One time I had ordered something on eBay. The item was a small thing worth about maybe $25 or so, a part for a computer that I was working on. The seller was in Florida, I was in Anchorage, Alaska at the time. Time passed nothing was received, when it should have been a week. Communication with the seller indicated a package had been sent, with a tracking number etc. What I received at the Post Office almost a month later was a plastic bag with a hole in it; the bag was partially full of dirty water. The bag had a address label on it that was mostly unreadable, completely water damaged and ink had dissolved - it had an "Official USPS Notice" attached to it... NOTICE: THIS PACKAGING WAS RECEIVED WITHOUT CONTENTS...(or something very similar to that - this was 25 years ago) ...I mean, WTF are you supposed to do about that? Anyway....


That happened to us once - package delivered with a big gash in the side of the box, stuff inside just pouring out. Don't remember how we handled it.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> That product page shouldn't be find-able on the site. It's a replacement v.1 case, for folks who somehow manage to need one, or someone who pops up with one of the bad-batch cases from 2019.
> 
> If you needed a replacement case, then you wouldn't need a crown or spacer, because you'd have them from your original case.
> 
> I'm not selling mod parts or kits.


I wondered. It seemed odd to me when I saw it. Popped up as a new product on Facebook, and shows as one of the products on the scroll at the bottom of the NTH website when looking at other accessories. I deleted the link above just fyi.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> "That's unfortunate, we are sorry. The QA would like like to figure out what went awry, please send it [details]"
> 
> You are offering a next step, you are not blaming either side, and you are vaguely implying that something went wrong without admitting/accusing.


Good stuff, though I suppose what I failed to explain in my earlier post is that when there's a reason to think the customer may not be telling the truth, and that he caused the problem he's bringing to our attention, I want to avoid having him send it back to us under the pretense that we shipped a "defective" watch. 

But that is exactly what the customer wants to do, often with the request / demand that we ship an immediate replacement, or issue a refund, omitting the option of repairing the watch and returning it to him (because it's now damaged and he doesn't want a damaged watch), or at the very least, repairing it under warranty, at no charge.

We also want to avoid a situation where a customer files a chargeback dispute we're not adequately prepared to fight, or decides to take his story public, before we have enough information to effectively respond. 

Example - customer receives a perfect watch, pries the bezel off, can't get it to go back on, then claims the bezel just popped off on its own. That's all the information he seems willing to give us, and expects us to accept it at face value.

We shouldn't be on the hook to accept that watch back as "defective". It doesn't matter if the customer is demanding a refund, a replacement, or just a free repair. We don't want to touch it, because there's just no good outcome to be had.

It's easy if the customer admits he pried the bezel off. We say that's unfortunate, but here are your options for a resolution...

If the customer insists on lying, it's harder, and more likely that he'd be willing to escalate things with further dishonesty, by filing a chargeback dispute or attempting to publicly shame the business.

Whether the customer is being truthful or not, he's likely to push back if we appear resistant to his demands, which asking for more information can often seem. We need to be very sure before we take a hard-line stance.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> I am currently basking in the sense of achievement that follows "putting the rubber strap" on my DevilRay. Managed it with only a single spring bar casualty and without giving up, not even once.
> Holiday watch choices have been made , though likely to change twice between now and leaving in the morning.
> 
> View attachment 16770890





Caltex88 said:


> It really is an achievement. Very tight tolerances!


I learned a good trick for putting a slight bend in spring bars. Press the bar between two tablespoons.

Makes getting fitted straps on so much easier.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I wondered. It seemed odd to me when I saw it. Popped up as a new product on Facebook, and shows as one of the products on the scroll at the bottom of the NTH website when looking at other accessories. I deleted the link above just fyi.


Appreciate it. I also just went into the website and made sure the product isn't visible.

This is kind of deep in the weeds, but within my website, we can set a product as "active" or "draft". Draft products aren't visible on the site. But even if a product is active, it still won't be visible, unless we add a "sales channel" which includes the site itself, but also the store on our Facebook biz page, and five other channels I don't really "get".

I had my marketing team go through the site and ensure that every product was available on all channels, forgetting that in the past, I wasn't consistent in how I "hid" products. Some were active but not added to any channels (like that replacement case, which then became visible when it was added to channels), whereas some were drafts, and would still be invisible, unless the marketing team switched them to active.

I need to go through all the products on the site and clean them up some more, it seems.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

dmjonez said:


> That bridge is the center of my typical wander. All of my favorite places are within a 30 minute walk from there...


Go on: put us out of our misery. Where is that, then?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

starwasp said:


> Go on: put us out of our misery. Where is that, then?


My bet is Paris.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> My bet is Paris.


Maybe but my guess was Rome…


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

starwasp said:


> Go on: put us out of our misery. Where is that, then?


Ponte Sant'Angelo. Walking bridge just south of the Castel Sant'Angelo, just east of the Vatican in Rome.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> My bet is Paris.


Nah, this is Paris:


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Back to watches for a second, that Amphion may be my favorite work watch. Thin and discrete. And I swapped the NTH clasp onto a Bonetto Cinturini strap, and it's perfect. The clasp and the watch balance, and it stays put on my wrist. Here's a photo on the bracelet. And I don't know who's drinking the wine, that's my Pellegrino. And a shot of the clasp on the strap:


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> Back to watches for a second, that Amphion may be my favorite work watch. Thin and discrete. And I swapped the NTH clasp onto a Bonetto Cinturini strap, and it's perfect. The clasp and the watch balance, and it stays put on my wrist. Here's a photo on the bracelet. And I don't know who's drinking the wine, that's my Pellegrino. And a shot of the clasp on the strap:
> View attachment 16771852
> View attachment 16771853


Very Nice.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Caltex88 said:


> It really is an achievement. Very tight tolerances!


I bought the rubber strap but totally intimidated about trying to install it. I know myself and I envision a tortuous experience that ends with self loathing and scratches all over the lugs. Plus I like the bracelet. So why did I buy the strap??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

Ike2 said:


> I bought the rubber strap but totally intimidated about trying to install it. I know myself and I envision a tortuous experience that ends with self loathing and scratches all over the lugs. Plus I like the bracelet. So why did I buy the strap??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I scratched the devil out of the lugs and broke a spring bar to do it, but I got it on there. Probably best to just pay a jeweler haha.


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

Still my favorite micro brand watch. And from the Philadelphia region ftw.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Do you really need anything more than the one on the far right? I mean, unless you're diving below 100m...



gavindavie said:


> I am currently basking in the sense of achievement that follows "putting the rubber strap" on my DevilRay. Managed it with only a single spring bar casualty and without giving up, not even once.
> Holiday watch choices have been made , though likely to change twice between now and leaving in the morning.
> 
> View attachment 16770890


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

johnniecats said:


> Still my favorite micro brand watch. And from the Philadelphia region ftw.
> View attachment 16773229


I 100% agree!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


>


Nice pantone on that strap...

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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Nice pantone on that strap...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Thank you 

Not sure I ever mentioned this, but the Pantone thing was all because I was thinking about (and still am considering) building a sort of BB36-by-way-of-Pelagos homage from this Nacken. I wanted to be able to get a Pantone-matched paint to make sure the chapter ring of the planned build matched the dial color.

EDIT: On second thought, that explanation probably makes things worse


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Thank you
> 
> Not sure I ever mentioned this, but the Pantone thing was all because I was thinking about (and still am considering) building a sort of BB36-by-way-of-Pelagos homage from this Nacken. I wanted to be able to get a Pantone-matched paint to make sure the chapter ring of the planned build matched the dial color.
> 
> EDIT: On second thought, that explanation probably makes things worse


You know you're a watch-guy when your explanations make most people's eyes roll back in their heads. But the other watch-guys nod in agreement...


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Every time @dmjonez posts pics, I imagine him like:









...and then I go back to my job writing code like:


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Thank you
> 
> Not sure I ever mentioned this, but the Pantone thing was all because I was thinking about (and still am considering) building a sort of BB36-by-way-of-Pelagos homage from this Nacken. I wanted to be able to get a Pantone-matched paint to make sure the chapter ring of the planned build matched the dial color.
> 
> EDIT: On second thought, that explanation probably makes things worse


Do it!











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

rpm1974 said:


> Do you really need anything more than the one on the far right? I mean, unless you're diving below 100m...


Looks like that will indeed be getting a bit more wrist time as it appears my sense of achievement with the rubber strap installation was ever so slightly premature.... DevilRay fell off my wrist this morning, on the way to the pool. 
Thankfully my cat like reactions were re-enforced by extra strong coffee to shake off the jetlag and I saved it from the marble floor.

Imagine how strong my sense of accomplishment will be when I manage to get that springbar back in using only a teaspoon. (Currently the best option based on "things in my hotel room that resemble the correct tool")


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

You may ask the waiter for the wine opener, they tend to have a small blade...


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

VH944 said:


> You may ask the waiter for the wine opener, they tend to have a small blade...


Good shout. I'll give it a go (have to admit I do travel with a corkscrew "just in case") 

And I'll be sure to post the aftermath images, unless the moderators stop me cos they're graphic images of severed digits or corkscrewed hands


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Without even having to Google "what's Arabic for two table spoons and a corkscrew" I got it back in. I didn't draw blood, and more importantly I did not cut the strap.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Thank you
> 
> Not sure I ever mentioned this, but the Pantone thing was all because I was thinking about (and still am considering) building a sort of BB36-by-way-of-Pelagos homage from this Nacken. I wanted to be able to get a Pantone-matched paint to make sure the chapter ring of the planned build matched the dial color.
> 
> EDIT: On second thought, that explanation probably makes things worse


Just pester @rpm1974 to make a blue dialed Pelion, and be done with it.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just pester @rpm1974 to make a blue dialed Pelion, and be done with it.


I've mentioned that one or two times in the Atticus thread


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Every time @dmjonez posts pics, I imagine him like:
> View attachment 16774612


More accurate:


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#NTHursday. 

This PVD case is amazing.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#NTHursday


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

NTHursday


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

NTHelson










Oh ****, sorry---NTHursday...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This can be a strange business, sometimes.

I started investing heavily in cultivating retailer relationships back in 2018. It's not easy to find a good "fit" when you run a microbrand. It seems like the bigger outlets expect to run roughshod over brands, especially smaller ones like mine, yet the smaller outfits struggle to do even the most basic things necessary to move inventory. Here and there, I find a match, with a retailer that deals straight and follows through, is capable of meeting expectations, etc.

So far, I've dealt with 16 different resellers. Not all of them were "retailers" in the traditional sense, but I count them all under the same umbrella, as they all are or were in the business of buying watches at wholesale prices, and selling them (in some form) at retail prices. 

Currently, I've only maintained 10 of those relationships, and honestly, a few of those could be severed, justly, if either party wanted to. I'm occasionally tempted to cut ties, but figure it's less dramatic to just let the relationship gradually wither and die. Probably because of what's happened when I've been proactive in culling the herd.

Two went out of business (one of those owing me money). One I fired for lack of performance and making me nuts. One I fired for lack of performance, making me nuts, and (I swear this is true) stealing NTH's intellectual property. One proved to simply be insane (and tried to make me nuts), so our first piece of business was also our last. I'm not certain, but I think I just fired another one, basically for lack of performance, though as always, there's more to the story.

I try to be fair. My process is pretty simple - at the start of the relationship, I take great pains to make sure everyone is crystal clear about the expectations all around (what I can expect from them, and them from me), then I measure the activity and results, to see if expectations are met.

When they're not met, I point it out. And that's when the trouble usually starts. 

It's amazing to me how often someone who professes to not just be an adult, but actually a professional, running a business, can fail to meet the expectations they agreed to, in most cases expectations they helped to set, and instead of admitting it, and accepting reality, they try to deflect, or worse, somehow put the blame for their failures on me.

What's even more amazing is when someone fails to live up to their own commitments, and gets called out for it, and tries to blame me, I actually feel bad. I'm serious. I do. When they come back and tell me I'm out of line for pointing out their failures, I feel like I've been called down to the principal's office, and get that queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach.

"Oh, this is terrible," the little voice inside says, "they'll be telling everyone what a jerk you are now." I actually envision future conversations with unrelated third parties, wherein I have to defend my own actions against what they heard about the situation. I live in perpetual fear of being cast as the bad guy by people who couldn't stand being held accountable.

It's insane. Truly.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I live in perpetual fear of being cast as the bad guy by people who couldn't stand being held accountable.
> 
> It's insane. Truly.


That's doesn't actually sound strange or insane. That's just seems like people. 

Sorry for the troubles. People are crazy. 



...at least they didn't ask you about Pantone.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## armabill (8 mo ago)

I noticed your watches don't have a date & day complication. Any planned for in the future?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

armabill said:


> I noticed your watches don't have a date & day complication. Any planned for in the future?


We offer date and no date.

Day/Date? Unlikely. 

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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I just had a nice experience with five45, if of any condolence. 
Everything went well so far, I am waiting for the _warez_. Any delay in communication can easily be blamed on diametrical time zones.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> I just had a nice experience with five45, if of any condolence.
> Everything went well so far, I am waiting for the _warez_. Any delay in communication can easily be blamed on diametrical time zones.


It is some, inasmuch as I like hearing that one of my retailers delivered a good customer experience.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> That's doesn't actually sound strange or insane. That's just seems like people.
> 
> Sorry for the troubles. People are crazy.
> 
> ...


I copied my marketing guy on most of the exchanges with the reseller we fired this week. He called me today, "That dude didn't realize you had the receipts!"

In the process of trying to explain things to the reseller, I had to go back through all the past exchanges, to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering what went down. Whenever I do that, I not only find whatever it was that I was hoping to accurately reference, but all the other topics discussed, which inevitably just adds certainty and substance to the argument I was intending to make.

"I'll refer you to our email exchange from 11-13 October of last year, sir, in which you suggested A, I countered with B, we ultimately agreed on C, and yet you apparently decided you'd rather take the P...By the way, may I also direct your attention to our earlier discussion, 8-9 September, in which we discussed you doing X? Whatever happened there?"

I don't get it. Even if I speak to someone on the phone, I always follow up with an email message containing notes on the discussion, for EXACTY these circumstances..."Hey Bob, great to speak to you again today. As discussed on the phone, yada, yada, yada...."

It's all there, easily searchable in any halfway-decent email program. Just go back and read the record of who said what, and when. There's ZERO chance I'm just not remembering things clearly, when it's all there in black-and-white for me to quote and screen-shot. Why don't these guys go back and review the tape before responding, the same way I do?

Dude. I asked what you were going to do. You told me. I told you, if you said you were going to do something, then I would expect you to do it. I gave you an out. I told you not to agree to do anything you didn't think would be realistic or flat out knew you couldn't do. You assured me you could do it, and it would be done. Even when it became apparent you weren't doing it, I tried to help you. I made suggestions. Gave you tips. Proposed a plan. You brushed me off, then rode the horse over the cliff, and now you're trying to blame me for your dead horse.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

No emails or horses here, but I took a family photo today:










As I was looking at the watches, this sketch came to me: the Nacken Vintage Black and Blue are the parents, the Nacken Modern Black and Blue are the children. The Skipjack is the older brother on the Mom's side but he has sadly passed away (to a new home). The Tikuna is the dad's brother, with the Scorpene his son. The Azores is the cousin twice removed. The Nazario is the new baby in the family that is oddly a copy of one of the grandparents.

None of this makes much sense but I had fun 😊


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horological Dicktionary continues to entertain...









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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I wasn't aware my actions had consequences!


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## RonaldUlyssesSwanson (Apr 18, 2017)

Back in the NTH club. Finally have a watch that pairs with this turquoise isofrane again.

Edit: -1 speed after 26 hours. Nice.


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## garydusa (Jan 16, 2013)

*Blue Suit..Blue Watch..Very Hot Saturday


























Jeers! *


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> I copied my marketing guy on most of the exchanges with the reseller we fired this week. He called me today, "That dude didn't realize you had the receipts!"
> 
> In the process of trying to explain things to the reseller, I had to go back through all the past exchanges, to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering what went down. Whenever I do that, I not only find whatever it was that I was hoping to accurately reference, but all the other topics discussed, which inevitably just adds certainty and substance to the argument I was intending to make.
> 
> ...


I once - inadvertently - caused one of my clients to fire their own project manager...

The man was a complete jerk and every progress meeting would come up with loads of ridiculous reasons (all disputed by his team) as to why the client couldn't deliver certain aspects of the project. Unfortunately all the things they "couldn't" deliver were things my team was dependent on to meet our contractual deadlines and all the things they could deliver were entirely ancillary to the project. One could be forgiven for thinking he was trying to cause us to fail.

I took to going to every project meeting with not only all the minutes and plans but also a summary of key decisions on a timeline. Final meeting for him was led by the overall Programme Manager from Germany (it was a huge multinational project involving 6 different teams in Europe and the 'jerk' was only responsible for one very small part of it) who was getting very concerned about lack of progress. Of course, 'jerk' forgot to mention the big boss was over but fortunately I was amply prepared.

True to form; 'jerk' states he couldn't deliver what he should of done in the last week because we'd failed to deliver our bit and we were causing all the delays. I then listed all the pieces of work from his team that we were waiting on which were pre-requisites for our part and listed all the meetings these had been discussed and all the deadlines 'jerk' had missed (obviously he was hoping these wouldn't be brought up but...).

As one of his team said on leaving the meeting "wow, you really stuck the knife in". It wasn't my intention but if you're going to poke a bear with a stick you'd better expect consequences. Outcome of the meeting; he was asked to stay behind and I later found out that after they went through all the documentation to check the veracity of what I'd said he was fired on the spot (very unusual in Europe).

Outcome for me was that later the same day - still not knowing 'jerk' had departed - I had a meeting with the Programme Manager to explain how I planned to get everything back on track; only after that did was I told they client was promoting one of their members to replace 'jerk' - which was good news because the person they promoted should have been doing the job all along in my opinion.

This was followed a week later by the offer a job with the client in Germany - I would have got the offer at the meeting but they needed to consult my management first as it would breach the 'no poaching' clauses in our contract. I came very close to taking up the offer!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Tried the Erica's again:









Nope, still don't like the feel of it! Color is not a great match either ...

So, back to the Timex Weekender strap:









Ah, so much better! (Not to mention cheaper ...)


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I like these Mack pictures. I'll get my own someday.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

josiahg52 said:


> I like these Mack pictures. I'll get my own someday.


I didn't like the initial images, too busy, but the real thing has grown on me. I am not a tough guy though, it would look on me as if I am trying to compensate for something.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Nice reaction to a Mack pic I posted in today's WRUW thread:









▄██▄ WRUW - Sunday, July 24th,2022 ▄██▄







www.watchuseek.com


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Avo said:


> Tried the Erica's again:
> View attachment 16781302
> 
> 
> ...


I kinda prefer it on the Erica's actually, but then again, I really like that MN style in general.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

gokce said:


> I kinda prefer it on the Erica's actually, but then again, I really like that MN style in general.


Tried Nick Mankeys straps yet? Erika's always seemed way overpriced for what they are, so I bit the bullet that is NMD's 8 week lead time and got one. Stellar. 

Already have plans for 2-3 more.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

It's the elastic material that I don't like. I'm pretty sure this would apply to any strap using such material, no matter how it's designed or constructed.

As with many things (like my staunch preference for no-date dials), I accept that I'm in a small minority on this ...


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Avo said:


> It's the elastic material that I don't like. I'm pretty sure this would apply to any strap using such material, no matter how it's designed or constructed.
> 
> As with many things (like my staunch preference for no-date dials), I accept that I'm in a small minority on this ...


I’m with you on the no date thing Avo. You shouldn’t need your watch to tell you the day or date! And it looks so much cleaner without that window. Don’t get me started on magnifiers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> It's the elastic material that I don't like. I'm pretty sure this would apply to any strap using such material, no matter how it's designed or constructed.
> 
> As with many things (like my staunch preference for no-date dials), I accept that I'm in a small minority on this ...


Our customers seem to prefer no-date for some reason. Seems like a 3-2 margin. 

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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I’m a fan of the Erica’s. Yes, they are spendy. But I don’t mind paying her in the same way I don’t mind paying Chris. Hers are better than the others. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Our customers seem to prefer no-date for some reason. Seems like a 3-2 margin.


No-date watches present better in photos on forums/fb/insta/onlyfans. I'm a bit surprised it's _only_ a 60-40 split, would have figured way above that.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

VH944 said:


> I didn't like the initial images, too busy, but the real thing has grown on me. I am not a tough guy though, it would look on me as if I am trying to compensate for something.


I'm the furthest thing in the world from a tough guy. But since absolutely no one ever notices what watch I'm wearing (maybe because I'm not a tough guy!), I wear what I like.



X2-Elijah said:


> No-date watches present better in photos on forums/fb/insta/onlyfans. I'm a bit surprised it's _only_ a 60-40 split, would have figured way above that.


Well judging by the fact that the majors almost never make an affordable no-date watch, I think we WUSers and microbrand fans are in the minority overall.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Avo said:


> I wear what I like.


OK there, tough guy.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> No-date watches present better in photos on forums/fb/insta/onlyfans. I'm a bit surprised it's _only_ a 60-40 split, would have figured way above that.


Well...

1. Some models we only make as a no-date, so I can't judge only by what we've made and sold, as those numbers would be skewed regardless of customers' preferences.

2. It seems like we sell the no-dates FASTER than the with-dates, but that's not necessarily a good metric, since:

A - the with-dates still sell, albeit, more slowly, and
B - I think it's to be expected that the no-dates would sell sooner to WIS who are paying more attention to new releases from micros than non-WIS, who tend to come along later, and seem to prefer with-dates. Those later sales to less WIS-oriented customers are proof that we're extending our brand reach beyond WIS, and they're important, as only a new customer can become a repeat customer.
3. My 3-2 number is from my memory of a poll we did in our Facebook group, which only has ~1500 members, most of whom would be WIS, and fans of the brand. So, it's a pretty limited sample size anyway (especially as we probably only got a few dozen responses, total), and may or may not be truly representative of either our core fan-base, or our total customer base.

4. The 3-2 trend is occasionally reversed with some SKUs, for reasons I can't even begin to explain. With some designs, the with-dates sell MUCH better. 

5. With some other SKUs, the no-date preference is extremely pronounced, much more than a 3-2 margin.

I've occasionally thought about the above, within the context of trying to figure out if there's an ideal mix for production. I still think about it, but more recently, I think about it less. 

Instead, I think about trying to optimize the production to align with the buying habits of all customer groups, not just the ones who are most present or most vocal, or the first to buy. I figure, as long as everything sells when it should, or when we expect, then it shouldn't matter which SKUs sell first, or to whom they sell, or what their reasons are.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

You know I’ll always ask for a date from you.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> You know I’ll always ask for a date from you.


TMI


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

All my NTH watches are no dates. I had a with-date Näcken a while ago, but that got replaced with a no-date version later on.

Having said that, I have come to appreciate with-date watches. It appears that lately I always forget what date it is, I look down at my watch, and it's a no-date! Especially disappointing when you are shopping for groceries and need to check expiry dates.

We cannot all live by the sea, dive whenever we'd like, and not care what date it is. But we would like to, judging by the popularity of no-date diver's around here, including myself.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> All my NTH watches are no dates. I had a with-date Näcken a while ago, but that got replaced with a no-date version later on.
> 
> Having said that, I have come to appreciate with-date watches. It appears that lately I always forget what date it is, I look down at my watch, and it's a no-date! Especially disappointing when you are shopping for groceries and need to check expiry dates.
> 
> We cannot all live by the sea, dive whenever we'd like, and not care what date it is. But we would like to, judging by the popularity of no-date diver's around here, including myself.


Sometimes I check my phone after looking at my watch, just to make sure the time is correct.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Back when I was diving in a gussied up sewer tube with 100 other guys for my country, having a watch that displayed a day _and_ date was much appreciated. It helped knowing that information quickly when waking up suddenly in your "time machine" when you were otherwise unaware of how much time had passed. That's why it was usually a digital with a light I wore. That it displayed the 24hr time natively was also nice. I still like a date complication and I appreciate companies that do it right and in a pleasing manner.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

If you have set the date of a Vostok by 20+ days you'd understand that no-date is a no-brainer for people with more than one watch...

Collectors: no date please. People who are wearing a watch for weeks in a row: date is fine (unless it's a Vostok Amphibia with tomorrow's date)


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

I've had this AVG for about 3 years now. In that time it has become my most frequently worn watch. As soon as I got it, I put it on a BoP. Over time I've had it on leather, NATOs, rubber straps, etc. Finally tonight, for the very first time, I got an itch and peeled the plastic off the OG oyster bracelet it came with. Just in the mood for simple and classic tonight, I guess. Cheers.

ETA: After 3 years, this thing still runs +2 sec/day. Effing ridiculous.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> +2 sec/day.


Clearly defective.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

docvail said:


> Clearly defective.


Still worth the $80 though 👍🏻


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Clearly defective.


Clearly. 
Next he's gonna say the rotor is quiet.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

VH944 said:


> If you have set the date of a Vostok by 20+ days you'd understand that no-date is a no-brainer for people with more than one watch...
> 
> Collectors: no date please. People who are wearing a watch for weeks in a row: date is fine (unless it's a Vostok Amphibia with tomorrow's date)


🤣

My most worn Vostoks are no-date. Any of them with date get worn in rotation, once a month, a day or two after the date it stopped, the previous month...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack day
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Black and Blue Swiftsures and Threshers are now available again.









2K1 Subs







nthwatches.com


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

X2-Elijah said:


> No-date watches present better in photos on forums/fb/insta/onlyfans. I'm a bit surprised it's _only_ a 60-40 split, would have figured way above that.


No date models simply look better. Nothing to do with interwebz silliness.

On top of that, no-date models are harder to find from most manufacturers, so if a brand or micro-brand is willing to offer one, I personally would have a strong preference that way. It's kind of a rarity when you think about it. Maybe if no-date models were ubiquitous, date models would be in more demand from the few who offered them.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold the phone. I got a notification for this thread again.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

I'm enjoying this Tudor BB homage. Very nice watch. And keeps to around 1 second a day when being worn. It was this particular model that brought me to become aware of and to consider an NTH. (I was searching for good quality TBB homage watches.)

Chris... do you actually regulate each and every watch in Pottstown, before shelving for shipment?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold the phone. I got a notification for this thread again.


Same here. After just stopping for no known reason a few months ago, they're back.


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold the phone. I got a notification for this thread again.


I didn't...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> I'm enjoying this Tudor BB homage. Very nice watch. And keeps to around 1 second a day when being worn. It was this particular model that brought me to become aware of and to consider an NTH. (I was searching for good quality TBB homage watches.)
> 
> Chris... do you actually regulate each and every watch in Pottstown, before shelving for shipment?
> 
> View attachment 16787180


Each and every watch that actually needs it.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Lume!









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> I'm enjoying this Tudor BB homage.


PS / BTW - you can just say "Barracuda".

Tudor doesn't do gilt relief dials.

Too hard, apparently.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Touche.
> I have one of those, btw. It's 2mm too wide for the subs bracelets though
> 
> I know you know I said stock bracelet.
> Do it. Tooless micro adjust. Take NTH into Monta/Formex territory.





Mediocre said:


> Do this.
> 
> That way I get one and I get to read a rant in 6 months when people say they want them.....at no extra charge. It's a win-win really


Bruh, don't ever say I forgot you...









18mm Ratcheting Expansion Clasp


This is the generation 1 ratcheting expansion clasp for the NTH Tropics. It will also fit the bracelet for the 40mm NTH Subs and the 2K1 Subs.




nthwatches.com





TRUE STORY - I asked my OEM about them way back when you asked, in April. They told me the factory that made them went out of business, and so they stopped making that clasp. They had TWO PIECES left with my logo on them.

So...I got two, bruh.

TWO.

2.

Buy one. Because as soon as peeps see this...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

One left, fellas.

Edit: 
For a split second I thought about buying both. 
But I chose not to be a d*ck. 
Because for some reason... I kinda like y'all.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First time seeing, and using the "Helpful" reaction.

Really feel good about it...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

And it’s gone.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> And it’s gone.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Poor, poor @Mediocre


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> Poor, poor @Mediocre


Nooooooooooooo


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Never liked the ratching clasp, which came on at least one watch I own. I replaced it with a bog-standard strapcode clasp. I like my clasps as thin as possible. 

Now the glidelock mechanism and its imitators is another story ... I'm willing to tolerate a bit of extra thickness for that style and the no-tool adjustment ...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When your brand is all but completely unknown to the mainstream consumer, but some internet scoundrel somehow think it's popular enough to claim you made the craptastic watch he's selling...








Gold Diamond Watch | eBay


Gold Diamond Watch.



www.ebay.com


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

docvail said:


> When your brand is all but completely unknown to the mainstream consumer, but some internet scoundrel somehow think it's popular enough to claim you made the craptastic watch he's selling...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you personally set the gems or do you delegate to a junior team member?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MuckyMark said:


> Do you personally set the gems or do you delegate to a junior team member?


I hand-pick, personally inspect, and hand-install each and every gem.

The installation is followed by a thorough polishing with a microfiber shamois, made from 100% cage-free ocelots, and infused with AI-programmed nano-bots, each one armed with its own microfiber shamois, and empowered to think globally, but act locally.

The nanobots are all produced by the indigenous peoples of southeast Asia, procured using fair-trade component sourcing methods, and transported here on environmentally-friendly, low-carbon footprint tall ships (read: really big sailboats).

The tall ships are all made from locally-sourced renewable timber, from local timber farms, which are all locally owned and operated, according to a disruptive and innovative land-lease-to-own-profit-share-cropping business model.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Are there replacement gemstone bezels for the SkipJack?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Are there replacement gemstone bezels for the SkipJack?


For just $16, you can make your own...



https://www.amazon.com/Rhinestone-Applicator-Bedazzle-Rhinestones-Tweezers/dp/B08BXXLJMZ?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A22TI3RSBC7F3E


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

All is well with the world.

Ric, innit.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I hand-pick, personally inspect, and hand-install each and every gem.
> 
> The installation is followed by a thorough polishing with a microfiber shamois, made from 100% cage-free ocelots, and infused with AI-programmed nano-bots, each one armed with its own microfiber shamois, and empowered to think globally, but act locally.
> 
> ...


Ever consider going into the audiophile cable business? You've got a flair for the language needed. Those guys print money.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Ever consider going into the audiophile cable business? You've got a flair for the language needed. Those guys print money.


I haven't, exactly. The closest I came was interviewing for a sales job with a music electronics company, back in 2010-ish.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Holy crap. I just noticed I recently passed 30k posts, and missed the occasion. 

Gonna have to do something...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Bruh, don't ever say I forgot you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The link isn't working.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)




----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> The link isn't working.


Yeah, because I hid the product as soon as they both sold.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Holy crap. I just noticed I recently passed 30k posts, and missed the occasion.
> 
> Gonna have to do something...


Now thats exciting news! Congrats Doc. 30K posts of talking to us knuckleheads' every day! 
so pick a random winner who gets to run NTH for a day!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> Now thats exciting news! Congrats Doc. 30K posts of talking to us knuckleheads' every day!
> so pick a random winner who gets to run NTH for a day!


Bronze GMT with a Swiss movement, here we come.

pantone


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

gokce said:


> All my NTH watches are no dates. I had a with-date Näcken a while ago, but that got replaced with a no-date version later on.
> 
> Having said that, I have come to appreciate with-date watches. It appears that lately I always forget what date it is, I look down at my watch, and it's a no-date! Especially disappointing when you are shopping for groceries and need to check expiry dates.
> 
> We cannot all live by the sea, dive whenever we'd like, and not care what date it is. But we would like to, judging by the popularity of no-date diver's around here, including myself.


Not trying to be a wise guy, but don’t you have a smart phone on your person at all times?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Incoming... 

Today I mentioned that I was going to be receiving another watch for the 'collection' -

My Lovely Wife asked me "Now -- How many watches do you own?"

And I replied, (truthfully) "I don't know. But why does it matter?"

She had that tone that suggested, (perhaps) some... I dunno. 'That' tone... You know the one.

Now My wife is the Nicest Person I ever Met - Seriously. And she would help anyone (well , almost) who asks...

So I said "You know Jay Leno and his car, truck, motorcycle and airplane engine collection?" 

(She Does - I've caught her watching Jay on YouTube more than once.)

She says "Of course - You know that."

My response, "Just think of me as the Jay Leno of watch collecting..."

Her reply  (she's quick), "And watch straps and tools and all that stuff out there in your workshop...."

Anyway...










This is Watch Gecko's vision of NTH's *Devil Ray* in Gray...sort of a vintage vibe.










I was actually about two clicks away from purchasing a new one from Watch Gecko out of the UK...











This pre-owned one was already in the US, so I decided to take a chance at getting it...

'The Lady who Lets Me Live With Her' (yup, my aforementioned wife) 
.....has a background in bookkeeping and accounting.

She's a real nerd for numbers, so I think she'll appreciate (maybe even admire?)...
....that this was somewhat less expensive than purchasing a new one. 

_I can Dream_.....

Enjoy Your Time, Folks...You've earned that right.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Ike2 said:


> Not trying to be a wise guy, but don’t you have a smart phone on your person at all times?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes of course, that's why I don't own any wrist watches.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> Incoming...
> 
> Today I mentioned that I was going to be receiving another watch for the 'collection' -
> 
> ...


Congratulations! That was the ebay one Doc posted ? I looked like it just needed a cleaning. If it was the silver one I would probably been a few bucks lighter this week  

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Continuing on the topic of NTH and eBay...

So...I have a saved search for NTH watches on eBay, which is how I found that rhinestone-studded abomination I posted earlier this week.

Today, I noticed a number of Rolex and other luxury brand watches (at least 6 Rolexes), all offered from a seller in Japan, with "Nth" in the listing title. I also found a number of listings for jewelry and other stuff with "Nth" in the title, from various places. 

You can clearly see "NTH" or "Nth" in these listing titles:









ROLEX Datejust Watches 69173 Stainless Steel K18 yellow gold Nth 1991 used | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ROLEX Datejust Watches 69173 Stainless Steel K18 yellow gold Nth 1991 used at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com













Panerai Luminor Base Left Hand PAM00219 Nth Lefty TO22042 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Panerai Luminor Base Left Hand PAM00219 Nth Lefty TO22042 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com













*Vintage Nth American Liquid Silver Turquoise Earrings | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for *Vintage Nth American Liquid Silver Turquoise Earrings at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com













ANTIQUE DATUM LADIES 9 CT GOLD WRISTWATCH SWISS MADE MIRBOO NTH GIPPSLAND | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ANTIQUE DATUM LADIES 9 CT GOLD WRISTWATCH SWISS MADE MIRBOO NTH GIPPSLAND at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com













2022 Large Lens Lighted Lamp Top Desk Magnifier Magnifying Glass Clamp LED NTH | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 2022 Large Lens Lighted Lamp Top Desk Magnifier Magnifying Glass Clamp LED NTH at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





It doesn't appear that the listings have "NTH" or "Nth" listed as the brand / manufacturer. I can't figure out why "Nth" is included in the listings, assuming that it's nothing to do with my business.

The only one that seemed logical was a listing for a ring, the description for which stated that "NTH" was engraved on its back.

Anyone here got any ideas? Maybe someone has some insight into eBay seller practices related to search terms or listing titles? Or perhaps Nth is a common abbreviation for something which would be relevant in some other countries or industries?

I'm not put out by this. My "NTH" search in eBay still turns up mostly NTH watches. I'm mostly just curious why "Nth" appears in so many listings, and what it might mean.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

The old name of the Norwegian University of Science and Technology was "Norges Tekniske Høyskole", Norwegian College for Technology - NTH.


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

kpjimmy said:


> Congratulations! That was the ebay one Doc posted ? I looked like it just needed a cleaning. If it was the silver one I would probably been a few bucks lighter this week
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yep. Thank You.
The photos posted on eBay didn't really 'help it' - I was wondering if I had overpriced something that was encrusted with salt. 

There was a bit of dust dried on the watch that was quickly removed with some luke-warm water, mild soap and the softest old toothbrush I keep around just for that purpose. It looks almost "new" - minor scratches (Very minor) on the clasp cover for the bracelet.

I really like it....


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Ooooh, shiny.


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

docvail said:


> Continuing on the topic of NTH and eBay...
> 
> So...I have a saved search for NTH watches on eBay, which is how I found that rhinestone-studded abomination I posted earlier this week.
> 
> ...


 You should see everything that pops up when you search on "MKII".... 

Once in a while there are some smoking good deals when a seller mis-spells the auction title.

Sometimes I guess that the seller just grabs a "popular search term" that shows up a lot (somehow) and just adds it to the auction title just so it will get "caught" in a search.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> PS / BTW - you can just say "Barracuda".
> 
> Tudor doesn't do gilt relief dials.
> 
> Too hard, apparently.


The gilt relief is beautiful. Adds a nice richness. The Barracuda is a great value compared to Tudor BB. Definitely scratches the BB itch for me, and saves some serious Benjamins - to spend on other watches! 

I prefer a nice collection of high quality sub-$1000 watches to having one or two "luxury" priced watches.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> You should see everything that pops up when you search on "MKII"....
> 
> Once in a while there are some smoking good deals when a seller mis-spells the auction title.
> 
> Sometimes I guess that the seller just grabs a "popular search term" that shows up a lot (somehow) and just adds it to the auction title just so it will get "caught" in a search.


That's part of my question, I suppose. Is there some way for eBay sellers to determine what are popular search terms?

And if so, and if "NTH" is a popular term, why is that? Is it because there are tons of guys scouring eBay looking for good deals on NTH watches? Or is there some other reason why "NTH" or "Nth" is so widely used in search, having nothing to do with my brand?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> The gilt relief is beautiful. Adds a nice richness. The Barracuda is a great value compared to Tudor BB. Definitely scratches the BB itch for me, and saves some serious Benjamins - to spend on other watches!
> 
> I prefer a nice collection of high quality sub-$1000 watches to having one or two "luxury" priced watches.


I feel the same way.

Occasionally, I'll feel like I want an Omega PO or Sinn 857, or the like. But I always find something I don't like about them enough to make me feel they're not worth the asking price, even used.

Then I realize I own a watch company, and can pretty much make anything I want and that I think will sell well enough to rationalize its production, and that, apparently like all my customers, I'm too unsophisticated to notice the enormous difference in quality between what we produce and what the big brands charge 10x more for, which all but guarantees our happiness with the final product.

It's hard to bronze all that titanium when you GMT about pantone in that context.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Oooh, that's a nice touch!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> The old name of the Norwegian University of Science and Technology was "Norges Tekniske Høyskole", Norwegian College for Technology - NTH.


I marked your post as "helpful", but I was being ironic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> View attachment 16793802
> 
> Oooh, that's a nice touch!


What did you get?


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> I marked your post as "helpful", but I was being ironic.


#customer abuse goes both ways here!



docvail said:


> What did you get?


The very last Renegade (with date) - in the world (TM).
I like the v1 sub case better, and the selection out there is shrinking, so I eventually came around.


----------



## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> It's hard to bronze all that titanium when you GMT about pantone in that context.


Ha! Seer of Seers, Prognosticator of Prognosticators...


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Ike2 said:


> Not trying to be a wise guy, but don’t you have a smart phone on your person at all times?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's mostly true, I do have a smartphone with me most times, but then what's the point of a watch? Besides, I try to leave my smartphone home in the weekend, which is also when I do the shopping 

That way, I can at least claim that my watches serve a real purpose.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> #customer abuse goes both ways here!
> 
> 
> The very last Renegade (with date) - in the world (TM).
> I like the v1 sub case better, and the selection out there is shrinking, so I eventually came around.


It's nice to not be the only one being abused...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




----------



## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

This morning, I managed to snag a photo just as it started to rain. 











The cloudy sky is 'making a natural white box' - helps the color stand out more...

Enjoy Your Time ---


----------



## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Scroll past if you have a sensitive nature…



Now don‘t burn me but I’ve been thinking about putting this DR on a leather Bund !!! 😱
I think it might just work on a similar colour to this vintage brown nato.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

gokce said:


> That's mostly true, I do have a smartphone with me most times, but then what's the point of a watch? Besides, I try to leave my smartphone home in the weekend, which is also when I do the shopping
> 
> That way, I can at least claim that my watches serve a real purpose.


I can appreciate that logic. Enjoy you date complications!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

bigvic said:


> Scroll past if you have a sensitive nature…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good to me! Leather on divers are awesome imo.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## blitzoid (Jan 21, 2016)

Ike2 said:


> View attachment 16795712
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


straight up unobtanium right there. If you ever get bored with it, LMK!


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Howdy, 

I was fortunate enough this morning to have a brief opportunity (in-between rain squalls) to get a decent shot of the Devil Ray Vintage Gray color scheme as suggested by Watch Gecko.











This shot was under a fairly bright but totally cloudy sky. 

There are a couple of funny-looking blurry spots in the photo where the light was filtered differently through some over-hanging spruce boughs.

Some styling cues that I really like in this...The quadrants delineated on the dial and the way that the watch name and logo, and the brand are offset in quadrants two and four.... The vintage appearance of the Lume application...Not too pale, not too weird overdone apricot yellow-orange, but a nice peachy tone - Its Perfect!...And the sword hands. That hour hand with its polished, faceted appearance, and the contrasting orange minute hand. And last, the way the orange pip, the orange-tipped second hand and the orange minute hand all 'tie everything together' as a cohesive package of design elements. All these elements have me remembering other classic diver designs dating back to the late sixties and seventies.

For me.... it pulls together some vintage memorable design cues, and incorporates thoroughly modern advances in watch technology... A watch this thin with ....

A 500 Meter Depth rating? *Yeah!*












And, a 'Lume shot' - Just a few minutes under the bright sky and look at this thing! 

So yeah, I kinda like it. 

Have a Great Day, Enjoy your Time.


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Finally found the time to adjust the bracelet - I really like the colors of the dial, depending on the illumination and angle: black, brown, green, blue, and silver. Added thinness is great.

Aside from the obvious "other side of the globe" joke, what's the correct direction of the clasp? My EU-bought Antilles and the Näcken from NZ came in opposite configs.

Also, the bezel came dirty between the teeth, very strange. Easy to remove though, 300m WR allow for rinse and light brush. (Might have seen the WR discussion on 'Public'...)


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Ike2 said:


> View attachment 16795712
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks! The dial is a really lovely vivid orange. And orange/black are the colors of Baltimore Orioles and Princeton Tigers, which works well for me. So I think I will keep it.  I just bought that orange strap from Cheapest NATO on a whim and like it more than I expected (even though the shiny hardware isn’t a match). It’s fun for summer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

VH944 said:


> Aside from the obvious "other side of the globe" joke, what's the correct direction of the clasp? My EU-bought Antilles and the Näcken from NZ came in opposite configs.


Honestly, whichever you prefer, I think. But I like the hinge at the bottom, and the "retaining clip" at the top, nearest my thumb. Easiest for me to operate. I believe most come that way. The logo would be facing up that way as well.


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

Ike2 said:


> Not trying to be a wise guy, but don’t you have a smart phone on your person at all times?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any people here who, while using their phone, need to check the time, and end up looking at their watch, even though the phone has the time right there in the top right corner...?


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

Iandk said:


> Any people here who, while using their phone, need to check the time, and end up looking at their watch, even though the phone has the time right there in the top right corner...?


Always. (Oh, and I had to check, the time is top left on my phone.)


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> Always. (Oh, and I had to check, the time is top left on my phone.)


Huh, I guess it is top left on my phone too.

Just goes to show I never look at it 😆.


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## feitelijk (May 20, 2020)

Ike2 said:


> View attachment 16795712


How did you tuck in that nato like that?


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

feitelijk said:


> How did you tuck in that nato like that?


I’m no expert but it works for me. Wearing same model strap on another watch today. It’s not ideal because the clasp is way off center but I don’t really care.


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## feitelijk (May 20, 2020)

Ike2 said:


> I’m no expert but it works for me


I think I have the same superstrap. But no way I can put the end under de watch like that


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## KOB. (May 1, 2011)

docvail said:


> How do you say, "your story smells like it could be BS. Send us back the watch so we can prove it, or disprove it," without the other party taking offense?


Simple

Mate, send the watch back and if it’s a warranty issue we’ll fix it on our dime. If not, we’ll ask what you want to do. Good with that?


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Renegade thoughts:

Printed, matte hour markers instead of applied ones are actually better, legibility wise - less bling on the dial, especially when the dial is bearing a decorative shine already
The dial is mainly bright (silver/light blue), as are the hands (silver/white). I sometimes fail to spot the slim minute hand at just a glance. I consider to replace it with something yellow/orange/red in the same geometry. Open for source suggestions!
sometimes, the dial makes me think the crystal is hazy in the center, nice brain hack
NTH bracelet > Invicta bracelet, obviously(?) I'm surprising myself here, because I didn't mind a flimsy Vostok bracelet- on an Amfibia.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Monday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

feitelijk said:


> I think I have the same superstrap. But no way I can put the end under de watch like that
> View attachment 16799020


I’m not doing that. All I do is take the little extra tail that extends past the keeper and tuck it back on itself under the keeper. Nothing elaborate!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> When your brand is all but completely unknown to the mainstream consumer, but some internet scoundrel somehow think it's popular enough to claim you made the craptastic watch he's selling...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow. Got to say, I don't recall that particular variant of the Riccardo but the design definitely has bawls.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> The nanobots are all produced by the indigenous peoples of southeast Asia, procured using fair-trade component sourcing methods


Honestly you should look into using necrobotics* for the diamond (and other fine detail) application.

*- it's a real thing, apparently.








Inflating spider corpse creates robotic claw game of nightmares


Welcome to the exciting, rather macabre new field of "necrobotics."




arstechnica.com


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Honestly you should look into using necrobotics* for the diamond (and other fine detail) application.
> 
> *- it's a real thing, apparently.
> 
> ...













And today's watch:


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mildly amusing set of subject lines in my junk mail folder today...

It started with cooperation, then there was a situation, and then apparently the whole thing escalated into some sort of updation, whatever that is...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The protective plastic was on the verge of being cured in place, and the clasp itself obviously was lost, found, lost again and finally found again. But it has a great home now. 

















Figure out how to make this 1-1.5mm thinner, and put it up on for sale permanently, I'll never pester you about a bronze, gmt with a Swiss movement ever again. Plus I'd buy three more right off the bat. I'll still pester about the non-diver though... At least until I see a render. 

pantone


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In other news...

I wasn't entirely aware of it, but it seems that in the midst of all this global inflation, the US dollar has risen appreciably against several other currencies, creating some real bargains out there, for US peeps who don't mind ordering from overseas. 

Examples...

At Serious Watches in the EU, you can save $90 on all 2K1 Subs, $105 on all v.2 Subs (including the last v.2 Näcken Modern Black on the planet), and $125 on all Azores. They also do free shipping. 

At Watch Gecko, their exclusive DevilRays launched at USD $660 with the 20% UK VAT, but can now be had for $588.23 (over $70 savings). They'll also ship free for orders over £100. As of the last count they gave me, they were down to just 2 pieces of that gorgeous orange/brown version.

At Five:45 in New Zealand, you can save over $70 on an Antilles Cointreau (1 of just 3 left worldwide) or Rosé (1 of only 2 left worldwide).

At IntoWatch in Korea, if you email them at [email protected] to remove the Korean sales tax, you can save $60 on the very last pieces of the *v.1* Subs left anywhere in the world (including the last 2 Bahias, the last Näcken Modern Blue, the last Scorpène Blue, the last Skipjack, and the last v.1 Vanguard), any Antilles (including the last piece of the Dark Rum left anywhere in the world), and the last remaining pieces of the black or white DevilRay. You can also save $95 on a 2K1 Sub. 

Global inventory on most of the models mentioned above is pretty low, as in less than 4 pieces per SKU.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> The protective plastic was on the verge of being cured in place...


Ain't you got a heat gun? Or some goof-off, or gum-out?



TheBearded said:


> Figure out how to make this 1-1.5mm thinner, and put it up on for sale permanently, I'll never pester you about a bronze, gmt with a Swiss movement ever again. Plus I'd buy three more right off the bat. I'll still pester about the non-diver though... At least until I see a render.
> 
> pantone


Can't, won't, shouldn't, probably wouldn't, and I'm working on it.

Plus, I see what you did there.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Ain't you got a heat gun? Or some goof-off, or gum-out?


It's all clean n' shiny. No adhesive removal liquids required.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A pox on all their houses...









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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Doc, will goof off affect DLC coating?


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> pantone





docvail said:


> Plus, I see what you did there.


gmt


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Doc, will goof off affect DLC coating?


No, but goofing off might, depending on what sort or goofing you get up to.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

docvail said:


> In other news...
> 
> I wasn't entirely aware of it, but it seems that in the midst of all this global inflation, the US dollar has risen appreciably against several other currencies, creating some real bargains out there, for US peeps who don't mind ordering from overseas.
> 
> ...


Now I'm Loooking at the Vintage Orange...Yeah it's stunning in appearnace...

But, "Story Time" again. I think this popped into my head because of the color combination.

Years ago (1974?) I was working in a GM Dealership in Alaska. It sold all the GM brands including Chevrolet and GM trucks. Trucks were a big deal, and one well-heeled customer who regularly (like very two years or so) ordered a new vehicle had ordered a brand new 'square body' half-ton short bed 'Flare side' 4x4 GMC with all the nice trimmings. He had specified a delicious looking Root-beer metallic brown color with an orange pinstripe scheme.

The truck was delivered to the dealership and came inside for PDI and something seemed 'a little off' on it...and it took a few minutes for everyone to notice exactly what it was. It was a GMC on the Driver's side, had a GMC emblem on front fender, GMC grill, a GMC bright molding on the back of the cab, but it had a Chevy (Bow-tie) taligate and it was a Chevy on the passenger side fender and door. 

So...needless to say...Customer was anxious to get the new rig, but everyone was disappointed to see what resulted. One of the managers looked up the assembly details and noticed it was a 'end of work week, end of shift' assembly time. Don't know if it was a 'joke' or not. 

Anyway, You got me looking at that Vintage Orange Watch Gecko...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> gmt


bronze


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mack lume is fire.


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## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

WG LE DR on an FKM strap from Ali:











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Did I show you guys the final DevilRay GMT designs?

Here they are. We're making the black, "whilver", and sunburst blue for the next DR release in October-ish. All will be available as no-date, with-date, or GMT with-date. We're also making some new versions as store exclusives for Watch Gauge and Watch Gecko, but I can't show them to you yet.

Meanwhile, here are the standard versions. It's hard to tell in Rusty's renders, but we decided to revert back to that minty-green C5 X1 lume we used for the black and white dials of the v.1's, back in 2018.






























"What in tarnation do you mean about dat dere lume, Doc?"

This is what I mean. White lume on the blue dial, mint-green C5 on the black:









Before anyone starts with "I don't like the GMT hand," don't. It was a bizotch to find even a handful of suitable choices for the GMT hand. We ultimately had to shorten the 12 marker to use the one we have, otherwise the hand would have been way too short. Even at that, it really came down to this and just one other hand choice. And, trust me, this one's better.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Can you make it a bit busier please 🤩


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Riddim Driven said:


> Can you make it a bit busier please


I think you'll love the Watch Gauge version...

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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

docvail said:


> I think you'll love the Watch Gauge version...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I thought that but I was thinking Watch Gecko 🦎 They cleaned up the design nicely the last time around. No nonsense Brits 👍 Giddy up.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Riddim Driven said:


> I thought that but I was thinking Watch Gecko  They cleaned up the design nicely the last time around. No nonsense Brits  Giddy up.


I was being sarcastic.

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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

docvail said:


> I was being sarcastic.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


We need an indicator for that. 
🟢 I’m being sarcastic 
🔴 dis fo’ real mufuggas


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Snaggletooth said:


> We need an indicator for that.
> 🟢 I’m being sarcastic
> dis fo’ real mufuggas


The sarcasm is strong with this one.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> 🟢 The sarcasm is strong with this one.


FIFY


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## wusnutt (Apr 30, 2018)

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but I need help deciding between two NTH watches. I have been wanting an NTH for a long time, but I have never taken the final step. Well it's time to take that last step. 

I am trying to decide between the Thresher/Swiftsure or the Devilray. This will be my "water activities" watch. Basically anytime I am near water (swimming, boating, etc), I will have this watch on my wrist. Anyone have experience with both that would like to share their experiences?


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

I ordered with the Beads of Rice bracelet, but have come to find my lifestyle and preference is a bit more "understated". I don't get dressed up enough to jive with Beads of Rice.

So....this leather band suits me (and the watch) really well! Casual, but still "snappy".


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

Happy NTHursday again. Today I’ve got around to putting the Nacken and Swiftsure onto some straps from the Watch Steward. I’m so glad I follow this tread and was able to give these a try. They have to be one of the most comfortable straps I've ever tried on.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Really loving this watch/band combo.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

wusnutt said:


> Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but I need help deciding between two NTH watches. I have been wanting an NTH for a long time, but I have never taken the final step. Well it's time to take that last step.
> 
> I am trying to decide between the Thresher/Swiftsure or the Devilray. This will be my "water activities" watch. Basically anytime I am near water (swimming, boating, etc), I will have this watch on my wrist. Anyone have experience with both that would like to share their experiences?


No wrong answers there. Both divers. Buy the one that looks best to you. Or both (doc talking)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wusnutt said:


> Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but I need help deciding between two NTH watches. I have been wanting an NTH for a long time, but I have never taken the final step. Well it's time to take that last step.
> 
> I am trying to decide between the Thresher/Swiftsure or the Devilray. This will be my "water activities" watch. Basically anytime I am near water (swimming, boating, etc), I will have this watch on my wrist. Anyone have experience with both that would like to share their experiences?


Aight...

IMO, they're very different. 

The 2K1's wear more wide-and-flat compared to the DR's, which wear chunkier, but not as long lug to lug, and don't feel as wide.

I think of the 2K1's as being the more "buttoned down" design for a guy with a large enough wrist to pull them off, the guy who likes the 40mm Subs, but just finds them to be too small. They're big yet sleek, like a Bentley GT.

The DevilRay ate all the buttons. You won't forget you're wearing one, no matter what your wrist size is. It's a tank. 

All that said, I think the DevilRay is easier to pull off on a smaller wrist, despite its thickness, because of the shorter lugs and smaller dial. My wrist is ~7 inches, and I love my two DRs, whereas I prefer the smaller 40mm Subs' size to the larger 2K1's. The width of the 2K1's is more noticable to me than the DR's thickness.



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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

wusnutt said:


> I am trying to decide between the Thresher/Swiftsure or the Devilray. This will be my "water activities" watch. Basically anytime I am near water (swimming, boating, etc), I will have this watch on my wrist. Anyone have experience with both that would like to share their experiences?


I'm a big fan of the Thresher. BIG fan. It's one of my most worn and favorite watches, displacing a much older microbrand I basically wore 24/7 for almost a decade. The Swiftsure is essentially the same thing, but I just prefer no numbers. 

Old photos:

On a Moosestrap NATO.









On NTH rubber. I really like the NTH viton strap. 









Interestingly enough, I don't have a pic of it on its bracelet, but I like the bracelet quite a bit. 

Having said all that, it was retired from daily wear a few days ago in favor of a Darth Tuna. I do have 7.5" wrists, so size isn't really a problem. It is quite svelte for a 600m rated diver.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FML...

Two weeks ago, we sold our last with-date DevilRay Blue to a customer in Eastern Europe. There's literally only one other piece left anywhere in the world.

Today, the customer is complaining that the watch doesn't look like the 3D illustration on our website, completely ignoring that there are six (6!) photographs on the product page where the watch was found, showing EXACTLY what the watch looks like. The customer was convinced we sent the wrong watch.

When stuff like this happens, it invariably seems to happen with overseas customers, who bought the last piece we had in stock of some model/version. The fewer pieces there are left in the world, the more likely it seems that this will happen.

The thing about those sunburst dials and metallic surfaces is that no matter what we "decide" they look like, when we're trying to hash out the appearance settings for our 3D illustrations, the real-world appearance varies so much that whatever we show might not be what someone sees when they look at it.

Imagine expecting this (dark blue sunburst dial, with frames of hands and indices that appear to be blacked out, a case and bracelet one might be forgiven for thinking are completely polished) :









But instead you see this (looks like a light blue dial, can't really see the sunburst texture, hands and indices are clearly not blacked out, brushed case and bracelet):









Both "real world" photos, of the same watch.

And it's not a case of "just get professional pics done, instead of using 3D illustrations". We've had pro pics done, for those "soldier images" (product suspended in mid-air on white background), by three or four different photographers, and we got the same complaints. In the process of cleaning up their images, hiding any stray dust particles and dampening any glare, the photogs invariably remove all the little nuances that make the watch look the way it does in real life.

If the customer was in the USA, returning it for a refund wouldn't be a big deal. But since the customer is outside the USA, I'm getting an earful about the price of the watch, the shipping cost (literally just $18), and whatever was paid in import taxes (I'm guessing 21% VAT, but not my fault - take it up with the EU's tax policy wonks).


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

"All of the people, some of the time..."
"Some of the people, All the time...."
 "All of the people, All the time...?" 

Sorry, Bud. It just doesn't work that way....


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

A watch will look a million different ways - all depending on the quality of the light (specular or broad, warm or cold), the angle and direction of the light, supplementing light sources, the colors and brightness of the surrounding environment where the photo was taken, yada yada and some more yada. Forty years of commercial photography experience speaking.

And... working with customers (and sometimes employees) can often be an aggravating, frustrating experience. Lastly... you don't want every potential customer who comes your way to BE a customer. When possible (in some businesses, it not always is), it makes sense to decline serving some people. Goes with the territory of retailing.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> "All of the people, some of the time..."
> "Some of the people, All the time...."
> "All of the people, All the time...?"
> 
> Sorry, Bud. It just doesn't work that way....


Oh... you're an optimist...

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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

wusnutt said:


> Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but I need help deciding between two NTH watches. I have been wanting an NTH for a long time, but I have never taken the final step. Well it's time to take that last step.
> 
> I am trying to decide between the Thresher/Swiftsure or the Devilray. This will be my "water activities" watch. Basically anytime I am near water (swimming, boating, etc), I will have this watch on my wrist. Anyone have experience with both that would like to share their experiences?


If I was choosing between these two, Thresher or Swiftsure all day. My blue Thresher is my favorite watch. There's something about it: big but it doesn't wear big. Fantastic wrist presence but because it's so thin, it wears like any other watch. 










The Devil Ray is awesome, too. If I were diving ALL the time, it might be my choice as it is highly functional. Get a v.1 or v.2 with the depth dial and put it on a mesh and you have a winner.










For everyday wear AND dive duty, Thresher or Swiftsure all day. It's as good in the water as for all-times-of-the-day and all-occasion use.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Does the bezel action loosen up over time? The bezel on my new Barracuda is so stiff that it takes every effort I can muster to barely even budge it. Not that I have a need to move the bezel much, anyway.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

DesertArt said:


> Does the bezel action loosen up over time? The bezel on my new Barracuda is so stiff that it takes every effort I can muster to barely even budge it. Not that I have a need to move the bezel much, anyway.


Yes, it will loosen up. I just went through the same with my new Baracuda. Lots of effort for awhile but it eventually loosens up. I’d just get in habit of turning it a few times each time on the wrist. Now much easier to rotate still with two fingers but nice and smooth.


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## joemamad (Oct 27, 2019)

Devil Ray sleeps with the fishes
My heart sank with my beautiful turquoise dial
Before and after…


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

RIP turquoise Devil Ray 🥲 So sorry for your loss. !!!KNUCKLEHEAD!!! 😩


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## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

Not sure if this has already been raised (I've not been following the thread over the last year or two) but Doc, Spinnaker just stole your case design, calling it the Spence 300.
Was this a case of a limited time deal with your factory, after which they could sell the design to other customers?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Cosmodromedary said:


> Not sure if this has already been raised (I've not been following the thread over the last year or two) but Doc, Spinnaker just stole your case design, calling it the Spence 300.
> Was this a case of a limited time deal with your factory, after which they could sell the design to other customers?


Looks like they skipped out on the drilled lugs.
Slackers.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> Does the bezel action loosen up over time? The bezel on my new Barracuda is so stiff that it takes every effort I can muster to barely even budge it. Not that I have a need to move the bezel much, anyway.


How new? Was it always like that, or did it get tighter recently?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cosmodromedary said:


> Not sure if this has already been raised (I've not been following the thread over the last year or two) but Doc, Spinnaker just stole your case design, calling it the Spence 300.


It has been brought up already.









This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


True story.... I'm standing outside the bar tonight, keeping my homey company while he smokes, because that's the kind of bro I am. Random dude walks by, and his watch falls off right in front of me. Spring bar popped out of his Seiko SKX bracelet clasp. Chris to the rescue. Pull my phone...




www.watchuseek.com







Cosmodromedary said:


> Was this a case of a limited time deal with your factory, after which they could sell the design to other customers?


That's not how the business works. Factories don't sell your case design after a limited time.

The closest thing that I can recall happening is when Borealis changed vendors, and their old vendor started making watches with Borealis's old case designs.

We haven't changed vendors, and Spinnaker isn't working with the same vendors (at least not our OEM, and I doubt they're working with the same case factory).

EDIT TO ADD - this is one of the reasons I don't post case cut-away images or factory illustrations any more. With the case cut-away diagram, it would be easy for a competitor to copy a case design line for line, measurement for measurement. Those factory illustrations could lead a competitor back to our primary vendors.


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Did I show you guys the final DevilRay GMT designs?

Here they are. We're making the black, "whilver", and sunburst blue for the next DR release in October-ish. All will be available as no-date, with-date, or GMT with-date. We're also making some new versions as store exclusives for Watch Gauge and Watch Gecko, but I can't show them to you yet.

Meanwhile, here are the standard versions. It's hard to tell in Rusty's renders, but we decided to revert back to that minty-green C5 X1 lume we used for the black and white dials of the v.1's, back in 2018.
View attachment 16805112
View attachment 16805113
View attachment 16805119
View attachment 16805210


"What in tarnation do you mean about dat dere lume, Doc?"

This is what I mean. White lume on the blue dial, mint-green C5 on the black:
View attachment 16805137


Before anyone starts with "I don't like the GMT hand," don't. It was a bizotch to find even a handful of suitable choices for the GMT hand. We ultimately had to shorten the 12 marker to use the one we have, otherwise the hand would have been way too short. Even at that, it really came down to this and just one other hand choice. And, trust me, this one's better.
[/QUOTE]


F#!k yeah! I have been in the hunt for a black with mint lume for ages, you have me on the hook for the black when they release (when will that be again? Got to make sure have the finances available)
Any chance you can elaborate more on the Watch Gauge version? Same as previous or something new?
Thanks again for going back to the mint lume.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Cosmodromedary said:


> Not sure if this has already been raised (I've not been following the thread over the last year or two) but Doc, Spinnaker just stole your case design, calling it the Spence 300.
> Was this a case of a limited time deal with your factory, after which they could sell the design to other customers?


Ima say it's a NTH x Direnzo mash-up, Spinnaker stealing two great, successful microbrand designs at the same time.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

So it seems that having tatts is the new "de rigueur"... so in my endeavours in keeping up with "haute couture", I'd like to share my latest "Irezumi" tatoos...


























Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> F#!k yeah! I have been in the hunt for a black with mint lume for ages, you have me on the hook for the black when they release (when will that be again? Got to make sure have the finances available)
> Any chance you can elaborate more on the Watch Gauge version? Same as previous or something new?
> Thanks again for going back to the mint lume.


DR's expected late October-ish. Expect pricing to be higher for the GMT's. We're looking at $575 for the 3-handers, and $625 for the GMT's.

I cannot elaborate more on the Watch Gauge version at this time, except to say it's nothing like the previous version.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I cannot elaborate more on the Watch Gauge version at this time...


I can.


But I won't.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> DR's expected late October-ish. Expect pricing to be higher for the GMT's. We're looking at $575 for the 3-handers, and $625 for the GMT's.
> 
> I cannot elaborate more on the Watch Gauge version at this time, except to say it's nothing like the previous version.





rpm1974 said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > 16815482[/ATTACH]


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> How new? Was it always like that, or did it get tighter recently?


I bought it from you about a month ago. From the get go, so tight I almost couldn't turn it at all. But it is turnable.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> Aight...
> 
> IMO, they're very different.
> 
> ...


Just a contrasting opinion, I've owned at least one of every type of NTH over the years and the DevilRay is the only one I cannot wear comfortably... and not for lack of trying. My wrist is about 7 inches as well and the DR just doesn't work for me. I've bought two and had to flip them both. 

I just picked up a used Swiftsure on the sales board, my first 2K1 sub and really like how it wears. To me it wears much smaller than you'd expect because of how thin it is... really hugs the wrist nicely.

Also recently picked up a second hand dark rum Antilles on eBay... might be my favorite NTH to date. I also have a blue 1st generation Antilles which is my go to 'beater' which I really like but the dark rum dial combined with the improved Antilles bracelet and clasp really makes it special.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

#MoneyMakingMackMonday









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> I bought it from you about a month ago. From the get go, so tight I almost couldn't turn it at all. But it is turnable.


Hmmm...

Hard to diagnose something like this remotely, because I can't feel it or judge it for myself, obviously.

The v.2 Subs' bezels do generally require more deliberate effort to turn, compared to the v.1's. But I'd mostly / first chalk that up to the fact that there's less surface area to grip around the edge of the bezel.

That said, I suspect that our case factory is also not cutting the bezel retention ledge on the mid-case as deeply. We found that the v.2 bezels are easier to remove than the v.1's, which were virtually impossible to remove. As a result, we've asked our vendor to specify a bezel retention ring with a little more tension it it, in order to keep the bezels from popping off the mid-case too readily. That might possibly lead to the bezel being harder to turn, simply due to increased friction.

If you noticed the bezel was suddenly harder to turn, and didn't arrive that way, that would usually point to some dirt or something under it. I'd recommend soaking it overnight in a mild solution of soap and water.

The only other explanation I'd be able to offer is something broke under the bezel, like one of the tabs on the click spring plate, and that's creating a problem. We had that happen with one recently, where the click tab created a little ramp, and actually caused the bezel to pop off the case.

But if the watch came that way, then I'd say that generally, they do tend to soften / loosen up with use. It's possible yours is "too hard", but that is something we check in our final QC, so we can say that we didn't deem it to be too hard when we shipped it. I've been wearing my Mack today, the only v.2 in my collection so far, and it doesn't seem "too hard", despite being brand new.

A little spray lubricant around the bottom edge might loosen things up a bit. But if your opinion is that it's simply too hard, beyond reason, then we could have you send it back for Dan to take a closer look.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Just a contrasting opinion, I've owned at least one of every type of NTH over the years and the DevilRay is the only one I cannot wear comfortably... and not for lack of trying. My wrist is about 7 inches as well and the DR just doesn't work for me. I've bought two and had to flip them both.
> 
> I just picked up a used Swiftsure on the sales board, my first 2K1 sub and really like how it wears. To me it wears much smaller than you'd expect because of how thin it is... really hugs the wrist nicely.
> 
> Also recently picked up a second hand dark rum Antilles on eBay... might be my favorite NTH to date. I also have a blue 1st generation Antilles which is my go to 'beater' which I really like but the dark rum dial combined with the improved Antilles bracelet and clasp really makes it special.


If I remember correctly, you're taller and thinner than I am. I wonder if your wrist is flatter than mine, and if that has something to do with it.

It may also be where you're wearing the watch versus where I do. I wear my watches low on the wrist, covering the wrist bones. Some guys wear them further up the arm, above the bones. 

I've found that because of where I wear them, the case shape, specifically the width and how much the caseback protrudes has a big impact on my comfort. I love the looks of my Seiko Samurai, but rarely wear it, because the combination of diameter, lug length and case back depth bother me after a few hours. 

As thin as the 2K1's are, they just felt too big on me, whereas for whatever reason, the DevilRays don't. It's not that I think the DR's "wear small", per se, they just don't wear quite as big as their dimensions would suggest, IMO.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

1 of only 5 made. DLC Swiftsure with date. New, unworn, still with plastic on it. $100 less than what I'd be selling it for if we had one in stock.









NTH Swiftsure Black DLC Date -- AUTOMATIC DIVER | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH Swiftsure Black DLC Date -- AUTOMATIC DIVER at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Hard to diagnose something like this remotely, because I can't feel it or judge it for myself, obviously.
> 
> ...


Yes, the watch came this way, so I'll give it some continued exercise in hopes that it will loosen up a bit. My use of bezels is very minimal anyway, and I'm not a "diver", so for me personally, this isn't necessarily a "problem" with the watch. I do wish it operated a little easier, but don't feel it necessary to return it to you for bird-dogging.

A small part of the issue may be related to the soft edges of the bezel... makes it a little more difficult to get a grippy finger purchase when turning the bezel. I've noticed that some of my other watches have a sharper edge on the bezels, making it easy to get a "locked-in" finger purchase on the bezel edge (and those bezels turn with less effort anyway).


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

In the wet, I can turn the OB ("original bezel"?) Invicta ProDiver only by pressing the flat palm on the entire watch and twisting. 
The edge on the Näcken v1 is "aggressive" enough so I can spin it just between thumb and index finger.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

VH944 said:


> In the wet, I can turn the OB ("original bezel"?) Invicta ProDiver only by pressing the flat palm on the entire watch and twisting.
> The edge on the Näcken v1 is "aggressive" enough so I can spin it just between thumb and index finger.


I wonder if the edge of the Nacken bezel has sharper cuts, allowing for a better grip on the bezel than the Barracuda does?


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ghosting today
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

rpm1974 said:


> I can.
> 
> 
> But I won't.


So what I am hearing is I need to annoy WatchGauge for the info.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

DesertArt said:


> Yes, the watch came this way, so I'll give it some continued exercise in hopes that it will loosen up a bit. My use of bezels is very minimal anyway, and I'm not a "diver", so for me personally, this isn't necessarily a "problem" with the watch. I do wish it operated a little easier, but don't feel it necessary to return it to you for bird-dogging.
> 
> A small part of the issue may be related to the soft edges of the bezel... makes it a little more difficult to get a grippy finger purchase when turning the bezel. I've noticed that some of my other watches have a sharper edge on the bezels, making it easy to get a "locked-in" finger purchase on the bezel edge (and those bezels turn with less effort anyway).


Holy mackeral. Send it back to the guy and get it sorted. Make it work properly so you can enjoy it. No need to walk on eggshells. You paid good money for that watch. You noted the "soft (to grip) bezel". All the more reason to send it in, as it will remain hard to turn. You don't use it much you say. So how long 'till it works properly? Weeks, months, sometime next year. No need to strip the skin off your fingers over a seized cog. Let the Doctor FIX IT!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> Yes, the watch came this way, so I'll give it some continued exercise in hopes that it will loosen up a bit. My use of bezels is very minimal anyway, and I'm not a "diver", so for me personally, this isn't necessarily a "problem" with the watch. I do wish it operated a little easier, but don't feel it necessary to return it to you for bird-dogging.
> 
> A small part of the issue may be related to the soft edges of the bezel... makes it a little more difficult to get a grippy finger purchase when turning the bezel. I've noticed that some of my other watches have a sharper edge on the bezels, making it easy to get a "locked-in" finger purchase on the bezel edge (and those bezels turn with less effort anyway).


I'm not sure I follow your meaning re "soft edges of the bezel". 

My personal observation is just what I said - the v.2 bezels require somewhat more deliberate effort to turn, compared to the v.1's, and the bezel action of both v.1 and v.2 Subs can be expected to soften up and become easier / smoother over time, with use.



DesertArt said:


> VH944 said:
> 
> 
> > In the wet, I can turn the OB ("original bezel"?) Invicta ProDiver only by pressing the flat palm on the entire watch and twisting.
> ...


Our friend there was comparing the bezel on his Invicta, which I think is likely scalloped, like the v.2 Subs', with the wider, gear-tooth bezel edge on his v.1 Sub. Again, I'm not sure I follow your meaning with "sharper cuts" (or "softer").

If the bezel on a v.2 Sub is "hard" to turn, in someone's opinion, I can only say a few things:

1. Compared to a v.1 Sub, yes, it's harder. I'd chalk that up to there being less surface area to grip, and maybe also to a tighter-fitting bezel retention ring.

2. It should get easier with use.

3. Is it "too hard"? That's an opinion, obviously, but without asking a customer to perform some demonstration of their grip strength, we struggle to judge if the customer's opinion is enough to warrant a return for us to take a closer look, or if the customer is exaggerating about the difficulty, and the watch is actually working as it should.

If I had to guess, I'd say we've delivered somewhere between 450 and 500 of the v.2 Subs since last year. I only know of one other customer whose bezel requires absurd effort to turn, but that watch suffered some damage, causing the bezel to come off. The post-repair result, despite our best efforts, was a bezel that really resists turning.

My point being - if we had a real problem with bezels not turning, for some reason, I'd think we'd know it by now. But, there's always a first time for every problem we've ever seen.



Riddim Driven said:


> Holy mackeral. Send it back to the guy and get it sorted. Make it work properly so you can enjoy it. No need to walk on eggshells. You paid good money for that watch. You noted the "soft (to grip) bezel". All the more reason to send it in, as it will remain hard to turn. You don't use it much you say. So how long 'till it works properly? Weeks, months, sometime next year. No need to strip the skin off your fingers over a seized cog. Let the Doctor FIX IT!


We don't like to have customers send watches back to us if we're not certain there's something wrong, but we're willing to entertain it, occasionally, in "gray area" type of situations. 

Best case scenario, Dan identifies a problem, fixes it, and sends it back better than before.

Worse case scenario, Dan can't identify any problem, and we're left with an awkward situation in which we have to communicate to a customer there's nothing wrong with the watch, possibly implying there's something wrong with him.

Worst case scenario, Dan identifies a problem, but either can't fix it, or it appears to be the result of some neglect or abuse, creating a really awkward situation in which we have to interrogate the customer about what they did to the watch, or admit that we can't fix it, and he's SOL.

That's why I've left it up to DesertArt to decide for himself if the effort needed seems beyond the reasonable range, in which case, he's welcome to send it back for Dan to have a look.

Again, as I said above, we're not aware of any wide-spread issue with the bezels not wanting to turn. We check them all in QC, before we ship them. 

The three bezel issues we've seen with the v.2 Subs all resulted from some sort of damage caused after we shipped the watches. Two were dropped or banged into something (according to what we were told), and one had a tab break off the click spring plate. That's it. Just those 3. No other reports of bezels not doing what they're supposed to do. 

There was just one other bezel-related issue, of a watch somehow arriving with the bezel not completely installed on the case, which is a bit baffling, but goes to show that we do sometimes miss things we shouldn't.

It's possible we missed something with DesertArt's watch, but unlikely. Nonetheless, we're willing to accept the possibility as a good enough reason to let him send it back, if he wants to.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Hard to diagnose something like this remotely, because I can't feel it or judge it for myself, obviously.
> 
> ...


Ok. Perhaps I am expecting a little too much with this watch? Though I really don't think so. And I think I'm beginning to feel just a wee bit on the defensive about my issue with the bezel action. So I won't walk on egg shells about it. The bezel on this watch is very difficult to turn. Period.

Let me offer some comparative perspective; in the last few months I have purchased these six diver watches with rotating bezels, all brand new:

San Martin Water Ghost "Sub" SN017 Diver (NH35)
Seiko SBDN017 Prospex Solar Diver (V147)
San Martin SN008 "Black Bay" Diver (SW200-1)
Seiko 5 Sports SRPD77 Diver (4R36)
Islander USA ISL-101 Diver (Ameriquartz)

and this NTH Barracuda (90S5)

The bezel action on the first five on my list varies slightly from watch to watch, but all will readily turn with a small degree of effort.

The NTH Barracuda bezel is another matter entirely. At first opening from the box, I actually thought the bezel was FIXED! I could not budge it!

After some significant, concerted effort, I was able to get it to move, but not without unreasonable effort. I'm 6'1", 185 lbs. and in reasonably good shape. I can easily operate the slides on numerous 1911s and various polymer semi-auto pistols - with fully loaded mags inserted. I can easily pull double action triggers on a variety of revolvers. My hand strength is pretty good.

If this bezel was tested before being shipped, then NTH specs for proper bezel function is outrageous! Thus, I strongly suspect this watch was NOT tested for bezel action before being shipped.

The watch has been handled with utmost care on my part, has not been dropped, dinged, banged, nor scuffed in any way. It could be sold in "as new" condition, with no qualms - except for the bezel stiffness.

Perhaps the bezel action on this NTH is within NTH "specs". But honestly, if I were to sell this watch, I would feel it necessary to divulge that the bezel action is probably much stiffer than most people would find acceptable - which may dissuade some potential buyers, or devalue the watch somewhat.

Bezel action is not important to me, as I almost never even use a bezel, but the Barracuda is by far the most expensive of all of the watches I have recently purchased - by a significant margin - and I don't REALLY feel that the bezel action is what anyone would consider to be "fine quality". That's it! And, unfortunately, during this back and forth, I will admit to having become slightly defensive about this.

I know that you don't want to receive watches back unless you are certain that there is something wrong with a watch, as you have stated, but I think you would agree that the bezel stiffness on this example is beyond acceptable.

So, yes, I do wish to send it back. If Dan finds there is nothing wrong with the watch and you are happy with the bezel action, I would entertain an offer from you to buy it back at a discounted price, for you to offer for sale in your "barely ever used" category. The watch is in beautiful, like new condition.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

docvail said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Hard to diagnose something like this remotely, because I can't feel it or judge it for myself, obviously.


Mr DesertArt, please send it along and let us have a look at it for you. I trust your judgement. These things can easily happen. I could tell you why, but don't want to bore you with the headaches we go through with these chinese factories. Though I do use that technique as much as possible. 

I'm not going to tell you to keep struggling, it will loosen up in time. Nor is there any need for YOU to go through soaking the watch in warm soapy water, then have you order jeweler' s lubricant and figure out how to apply that properly in hopes it solves the issue.

You see many of our customers can field strip and modify their watches in 14 1/2 minutes and they're far better than when they received them. I sometimes forget you're the layperson spending good money for a fine instrument with which to read and measure time.

I didn't mean to share all the parameters of the watch industry and what we see from our side. Though it has worked pretty well thus far. 

I told "Dave" to message you yesterday to send it in and we'd fix it posthaste. He must have forgotten.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is why I don't like to do customer support via forum or social media, and ask everyone to use the contact form on our website, or email customersupport AT nthwatches DOT com.

@DesertArt - if you'd like to contact us about it, please do, via one of the methods above.


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Watches vary a bit. My watches cover quite a gamut of bezel action. 

I have two NTH watches; a Thresher and an Azores. The former has a pretty stuff bezel. It works fine, just takes some effort _compared to my other watches. _Also, the thing has some very aggressive scallops. Nice for grip, especially with gloves, but I suspect it might have some cut-off wheel in its horological DNA. The Azores, well, it's a twin crown, so very different and very easy. 

Most of my Seikos have easy bezel actions. Some might even say maybe a bit mushy. The one that doesn't (SKX) has an aftermarket bezel and it's very nice. They work, but none are what you'd call crisp. Most are old and probably need cleaning, but they still work so not going to agonize over them. 

My Prometheus and BaliHa'i both have good, crisp bezel action. The latter was getting a bit mushy after a decade of daily use, but shaped back up after cleaning and servicing.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Riddim Driven said:


> Mr DesertArt, please send it along and let us have a look at it for you. I trust your judgement. These things can easily happen. I could tell you why, but don't want to bore you with the headaches we go through with these chinese factories. Though I do use that technique as much as possible.
> 
> I'm not going to tell you to keep struggling, it will loosen up in time. Nor is there any need for YOU to go through soaking the watch in warm soapy water, then have you order jeweler' s lubricant and figure out how to apply that properly in hopes it solves the issue.
> 
> ...


RD.... thank you very much for your kind and respectful reply. I will contact via your website for the return.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It's Woden's day again.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## garydusa (Jan 16, 2013)

*…a Creepy FLY Landed on Hand!


























Cheers!*


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all (Americans) see the email blast we just sent out?

For all the guys who think NTH's prices are too high, your day has come. Falling foreign currencies = big savings on low-stock NTH models at ex-US retailers.

There's only 1 Antilles Dark Rum left in the world, a no-date, at IntoWatch, where it's now $60 less than it would be if you bought it here (be sure to email [email protected] before you buy, to request they remove Korean sales tax). We will not make more.

Ditto for the Antilles Rosé - just 1 piece left. Same site. Same savings. We will not make more.

There are only 2-3 Antilles Cointreau left in the world, 2 at IntoWatch (see above), and 1 at Five:45 in NZ, where it's now $70 less, with free worldwide shipping. We will not make more.

There are only 2-3 Antilles Hpnotiq left in the world, 1 of which is at IntoWatch, for $60 less. I doubt we'll make more.

There are only 4-5 Azores Absinthe left in the world, just 2 no-dates, and 2-3 with dates. 1 of the last 2 no-dates is at Serious - save $130, AND get free shipping, and probably a Stroopwaffel or the like tossed in. Same with the with-dates. 1-2 of the last 2-3 left in the world are at Serious. We will not make more.

There are only 10-15 Azores Blue left in the world. Same as above, bigly savings at Serious, where there are just 1-2 pieces each of the no-date and with-date versions. We will not make more.

Serious inventory is also down to just 1-2 pieces of most v.2 Subs, which are now $119 less. You liked the Subs better when they were $600? Boom. Now they're $600. Buy one. Thank me later.

Ditto on the 2K1 Subs - save $119 at Serious.

Watch Gecko DevilRays - they were $660, now just $586, with free shipping.

v.1 Subs at IntoWatch - literally just 1 piece left of Bahia, Scorpene Blue, Skipjack, and Vanguard. Save $60 on all of them. You got "Big Crowns Forever - Crown Guards Never" tattooed on your heart? I got you, tough guy. $618 and one of the last no-crown-guard Subs can be yours. You can tell your grandkids how you shafted me for $60 and how things were better in the good old days, when crowns were big and didn't need protecting.

v.2 DevilRays - white and black, with the white lume, now discontinued, $60 savings at IntoWatch. Just 1 black with date, and 2-3 white no-dates.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The discussion of the stiff bezel over the last 24 hours has gotten stuck in my head, and I feel I should clarify...

I'd guestimate that with 95% of the customer support requests we get, we're 100% certain about whether there is or is not a real problem. There either is, for sure, or there isn't, for sure. The other 5% of the time, we're not sure.

As a general rule, we don't automatically tell customers to just send a watch back to us in those 5% instances, for what I think are good, valid reasons. 

We don't want to risk a watch being lost in transit, obviously. We also don't want to deal with situations where there's nothing wrong, because A) it's a waste of time, and B) we're leery of having a "you touched it last, now it's your problem" sort of situation. In any case, we don't want to ask a customer to pay for return shipping, as we're telling them that there was nothing wrong in the first place, which is probably not what they wanted to hear.

For these reasons, we try to get customers to help us do some basic, up-front trouble-shooting before we arrange a return. To the best of our ability, we try to become 100% certain that there actually is a real problem, with troubleshooting, or by asking for pics, or video, whatever.

For example - we get peeps talking about weird noises from inside the case. Sometimes we get video, because how else are we to judge the volume or quality of a sound by way of email? If the watch is running well, as expected, especially if the sound can only be heard with the mic next to the watch, we tend to think that's "normal" rotor noise (and the customer is just overly attuned to it). If the watch isn't running well, especially if the noise is irregular, we're more likely to think a case tab screw has come loose, and is rattling around inside, causing havoc. 

Unfortunately, there are still a very small number of situations where we just don't know. In those situations, generally, we'll err on the side of caution, and defer to the customer's opinion, which usually means we'll be getting the watch back to take a look.

In all those situations, we really try to avoid saying anything which suggests the customer is lying, or crazy, or just being too OCD / nitpicky, etc, while also trying to avoid saying anything which seems like we're necessarily agreeing that there is a problem, if only because we don't want that to become a point of leverage, and turned around on us. Our stance is basically, "not sure what's going on, but send it back and we'll see what we find."

With most problems we see, we've already seen them before. Or, if it's a new problem, the problem may be widespread. When we had a problem with some cases being made wrong in 2019, we got 5-6 emails about it in the first week after we started shipping. When we changed the bracelet, and the clasp-links were made wrong, we heard about it right away, from multiple customers. 

In those instances, when a problem is widespread, we know it, almost immediately, because it's everywhere, all at once.

Very infrequently, we have a problem that we've just never seen before, or perhaps we have, albeit, it's extremely rare. I think I recently mentioned we had a guy who snapped two crown stems in his v.2 Sub. Turns out his case-tube wasn't mounted straight in the case. First and only time we ever saw that particular problem. As you might imagine, we were a bit perplexed at first.

In this instance, with the bezel being reported as overly stiff - I don't know. I'm a bit perplexed. I don't believe it's a widespread problem, because we've shipped over 400 v.2 Subs, and this is the first I've heard someone say the bezel is unreasonably hard to turn. Harder to turn than the v.1 Subs, yes, I've heard that. But otherwise, nope, no complaints about it.

Ultimately, if there's something truly wrong, it doesn't matter if it's widespread or a one-off problem. We replaced all the bad cases, and all the bad links, and that one case with the wonky case-tube. All under warranty, free of charge.

So...if we find there's something wrong with this bezel, we'll do our level best to fix it, for free, under the warranty. If there's something wrong that we can't fix, we'll replace the case, again, free of charge, under the warranty. If we can't find anything wrong, I'll be happy to make a fair offer to repurchase it, if that's the desired resolution. No harm, no foul, no hard feelings, hopefully.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

DesertArt said:


> Ok. Perhaps I am expecting a little too much with this watch? Though I really don't think so. And I think I'm beginning to feel just a wee bit on the defensive about my issue with the bezel action. So I won't walk on egg shells about it. The bezel on this watch is very difficult to turn. Period.
> 
> Let me offer some comparative perspective; in the last few months I have purchased these six diver watches with rotating bezels, all brand new:
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your poorly functioning bezel, and seeing the experience you are having being doubted and questioned about the condition of it. In general nth watches have been well made and finished but sometimes things slip by qc. Send it back. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

JLS36 said:


> Sorry to hear about your poorly functioning bezel, and seeing the experience you are having being doubted and questioned about the condition of it. In general nth watches have been well made and finished but sometimes things slip by qc. Send it back.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Thanks for catching my "drift".  I was feeling a bit doubted, but I'm not naive enough to think that the bezel on my NTH was tested and found to be functioning perfectly well before shipment. It's in Priority Mail as I write this, back for correction.

As for Chinese watches and NTH specifically, my experiences with Chinese produced watches has been fantastic. My two San Martins are so excellent that I just ordered a third... especially since they are making them with Selitta SW200-1 movements in them. I don't have in-the-USA warranty care with them, but for the excellent price, and great experience I have with them, I'm ok with that. 

NTH is proud to offer their Chinese manufactured watches, as are countless other micro-brands, and I'm good with that, as well. China has proven time and time again that they are capable of producing excellent watches, running fine quality Japanese and Swiss movements.

My Barracuda is an excellent watch and keeps great time with the Miyota 90S5 movement. Once the bezel is turning with a reasonable amount of effort... all will be just fine with the watch!


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> The discussion of the stiff bezel over the last 24 hours has gotten stuck in my head, and I feel I should clarify...
> 
> I'd guestimate that with 95% of the customer support requests we get, we're 100% certain about whether there is or is not a real problem. There either is, for sure, or there isn't, for sure. The other 5% of the time, we're not sure.
> 
> ...


Quite fair enough, Doc! You have a sensible approach to things.

And thanks for being so closely involved with your followers in this thread.

I would never even begin to suggest that the bezel stiffness on my watch is anything beyond my individual watch. I would be extremely surprised if the stiffness is characteristic of NTH watches in general.

I'm sure enough of the issue that I was willing to spend the $24 to return by Priority Mail insured for $650.

All I know is that it's difficult enough to operate that I'm not pleased... and no where near the functionality of numerous other dive watch bezels that I have. I'm sure Dan will get it sorted and if not, I will take you up on your more than fair offer to repurchase it. Thank you.


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

DR for the win


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> Y'all see the email blast we just sent out?
> [...]


No, but I got the last v1 w/date they had at five:45 two weeks ago. Boy do I feel smart about it now! (Customs' invoice hasn't arrived yet...)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> No, but I got the last v1 w/date they had at five:45 two weeks ago. Boy do I feel smart about it now! (Customs' invoice hasn't arrived yet...)


I should have specified that the email I was referencing only went out to those in the US, as it was about taking advantage of a strong dollar by buying from overseas.

Also - the Bahia at IntoWatch is also a with-date, if you're interested.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> #MoneyMakingMackMonday
> View attachment 16816181
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Hey Doc, really like the design of The Mack, what an amazing way to honor your friend. What's the official bezel insert color? I like how it seems to change from a copperish brown to grey brown depending on the light.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Hey Doc, really like the design of The Mack, what an amazing way to honor your friend. What's the official bezel insert color? I like how it seems to change from a copperish brown to grey brown depending on the light.


Official?

I dunno. Our plating vendor calls it "khaki". I see it as similar to CuSn8 bronze.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> Official?
> 
> I dunno. Our plating vendor calls it "khaki". I see it as similar to CuSn8 bronze.


Ha! Nothing's more official than Khaki. Maybe just call it, "not quite root beer"


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Raise.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)




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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

This new (to me) Swiftsure has gained 7 seconds since set on Monday which I suppose is acceptable... It's a strong contender to accompany me on an upcoming vacation week.









Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> This new (to me) Swiftsure has gained 7 seconds since set on Monday which I suppose is acceptable... It's a strong contender to accompany me on an upcoming vacation week.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


7 seconds / 4 days = 1.75 seconds / day.

Clearly defective.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> 7 seconds / 4 days = 1.75 seconds / day.
> 
> Clearly defective.


Right? Thought about sending it back for a warranty claim. But I'll be damned if I'm paying the shipping. And they won't come pick it up from me... Unreasonable outfit.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> Ha! Nothing's more official than Khaki. Maybe just call it, "not quite root beer"


Using that plating color has been a frustrating experience.

I asked my vendor to send me a bezel sample, with lume, along with a number of dial samples with different Pantone colors, to see if we could find a match.

They sent me a few bezel samples, none with lume. My unscientific poll of people living in my house determined which Pantone was the closest match to the bezel.

We used that color for the 3D illustrations Rusty did, and I really thought we nailed it, until we got the assembled watches, and the bezels looked a little lighter than we'd illustrated. 

I had Rusty re-do the illustrations with a slightly lighter Pantone color. I still don't think it's exact, but the method I use to figure out what Pantone color to use for the bezel inserts isn't very exact. It's literally me holding a physical sample up to my computer monitor, and trying to find the closest Pantone match.

So...that's why we supplement with photography. Hopefully people actually LOOK at the photos. I'm not sure they all do.

It's not even "not quite root beer". I don't think it's really "khaki", either. In the plating vendor's sample book, it kinda looks olive green. Without any lume, the samples I got from the factory look more brown. On the watch, it looks kinda-sorta-brownish-gray-or-grayish-brown. 

When I say it looks like bronze, I don't think I'm "wrong", though when I look at pics of bronze watches, there's a lot of variation in their color. But if you do an image search for the Halios Seaforth Bronze, I really think that's a fairly good match for the color of the Mack's bezel, depending on which images you're viewing.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

The Mack is a good looker! Excellent design. I'd add one if I wasn't already swimming in watches.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

DesertArt said:


> The Mack is a good looker! Excellent design. I'd add one if I wasn't already swimming in watches.


I'm wading myself 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> Using that plating color has been a frustrating experience.
> 
> I asked my vendor to send me a bezel sample, with lume, along with a number of dial samples with different Pantone colors, to see if we could find a match.
> 
> ...


Chris, you're using painted swatches/chips next to a monitor that emits light---not equal, no matter what you think... As a designer, I do it too and it never turns out exactly how you hope it does...


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

juskiewrx said:


> Chris, you're using painted swatches/chips next to a monitor that emits light---not equal, no matter what you think... As a designer, I do it too and it never turns out exactly how you hope it does...


Yes! Spoken like a true designer. 100%. Physical color rendering way different than digital screen.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> Using that plating color has been a frustrating experience.
> 
> I asked my vendor to send me a bezel sample, with lume, along with a number of dial samples with different Pantone colors, to see if we could find a match.
> 
> ...


I was starting to get a little disappointed at first for the lack of a detailed Doc response. 

As much of a pain in the ass I'm sure it was from a process standpoint, I'd say the color of it actually turned out well. It looks amazing and unique, and with the full minute markers and mirrored triangle at the 6, it works really well. The bronze-ish hues are really cool man. Great hustle NTH team!


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

juskiewrx said:


> Chris, you're using painted swatches/chips next to a monitor that emits light---not equal, no matter what you think... As a designer, I do it too and it never turns out exactly how you hope it does...


The chips held in your hand are viewed by seeing the ambient room light that reflects OFF of them. The computer image is viewed by seeing light that transmits THROUGH the screen. That's the significant primary difference in how the colors look, aside from the actual color differences of the subjects.

Not to mention how your computer monitor is balanced for color reproduction. Many people's monitors can be all over the map in terms of color fidelity.

And, whatever color the light source is in the room (cold, cool, neutral, warm, very warm) when you're viewing the chips, that quality will tint the look of the color that light reflects back off of the chip. Extremes: north exposure daylight (cool) vs. incandescent light bulb (warm to very warm).


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Hope you ladies and gents are well! Life is crazy at the moment, hoping to get settled soon and catch up on the thread. Congrats on 30k Doc!

I would post a watch pic for #NTHursday, but they are safely packed for the upcoming move. I may have to create random #NTHdays once I dig through the boxes to make up for lost Thursdays!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If you know me at all, even a little bit, you know there's NOTHING I love more than a discussion of colors which inevitably leads to monitor calibrations...



juskiewrx said:


> Chris, you're using painted swatches/chips next to a monitor that emits light---not equal, no matter what you think... As a designer, I do it too and it never turns out exactly how you hope it does...


1. Yes, I realize that, and have for a while, but it's really all we can do when we're dealing with colors applied to materials by vendors who don't use Pantones or RGB's or anything remotely close. Our plating vendor has two proprietary "blues" - IP Light Blue 01, and IP Dark Blue 02; trintec doesn't tell us the CMYK values for C3 superluminova, etc. We're shooting in the dark with these plating colors and lume colors.

B - Notwithstanding the above, I think over time and a few iterations of trial and error, we've done a fair job of dialing in the colors we use in 3D illustrations for the materials/components we use most frequently. I think we nailed the blue bezel plating color, and most of the lume colors. It might take a few passes, but given enough trial and error, we'll nail the Mack bezel color.

IV: All of the above ends up mattering for naught when real-world appearances can vary so much based on lighting conditions, camera quality, people's relative ability to discern colors, etc.



tregan13 said:


> Yes! Spoken like a true designer. 100%. Physical color rendering way different than digital screen.


Meh. See above. I'm pretty confident we know how to illustrate blue bezels and "natural" lume, now, after a few unsuccessful tries, even though we got there by comparing a physical object to an on-screen swatch.

3D render vs reality (look at the dial lume colors):
























Check out the bezel color:



















tregan13 said:


> I was starting to get a little disappointed at first for the lack of a detailed Doc response.
> 
> As much of a pain in the ass I'm sure it was from a process standpoint, I'd say the color of it actually turned out well. It looks amazing and unique, and with the full minute markers and mirrored triangle at the 6, it works really well. The bronze-ish hues are really cool man. Great hustle NTH team!


If you mean you like the color, cool.

If you mean you think we did something to end up with that color, we didn't. We basically just got what we got.

My earlier point was just that we (mostly I) went to some trouble to try to figure out what that bezel color actually "is", including getting bezel plating samples and dial color samples. I thought we had it pretty close, but after two passes, I still don't think our 3D renders are as close to reality as the examples I gave above.



DesertArt said:


> The chips held in your hand are viewed by seeing the ambient room light that reflects OFF of them. The computer image is viewed by seeing light that transmits THROUGH the screen. That's the significant primary difference in how the colors look, aside from the actual color differences of the subjects.
> 
> Not to mention how your computer monitor is balanced for color reproduction. Many people's monitors can be all over the map in terms of color fidelity.
> 
> And, whatever color the light source is in the room (cold, cool, neutral, warm, very warm) when you're viewing the chips, that quality will tint the look of the color that light reflects back off of the chip. Extremes: north exposure daylight (cool) vs. incandescent light bulb (warm to very warm).


Aaaaaannnnnddddd....there it is, monitor calibration.

For whatever it's worth, I think my POS monitor came well calibrated, out of the box, judging from how we've been able to figure out the colors we should use for our 3D illustrations.

That said, the lighting in my old office (where I was when we figured out the examples above) was better. It had two windows facing the monitor. The lighting in my new office is monkey-$hlt, which didn't help me with the Mack. But I had peeps look at the bezel and dial samples in other rooms, and outside, when I was gathering opinions.

The thing that made the process with the Mack bezels extra frustrating is that we were NOT simply holding a sample up to my monitor and trying to figure out the color. I had my factory send me half a dozen different dial samples, for which we were able to specify Pantone colors. I was asking people to pick the dial sample that most closely matched the bezel samples, as a way to figure out what color the damned bezel would be.

I figured, if I picked six Pantone colors that looked close to the plating sample in the vendor's sample book (when I held the sample book up to my monitor), one of those Pantone colors would HAVE to be a decent match when we compared the dial samples to the bezel sample.

And I thought we did indeed find a match. Everyone picked the same dial Pantone sample as the best match for the Mack's bezel.

This process wasn't invented on the fly, ad-hoc, as a one-off for the Mack. We've done this before, on other models. It's exactly the process we used with the Barracuda Brown. Before we made that model, I had my vendor send me a bezel sample, and half a dozen dial samples in different Pantone colors. I think we nailed that one.

That's what's killing me. We used this process before, and it worked. This time, it didn't. I still don't know what Pantone color to tell Rusty to use to illustrate that bezel. And I don't know what to tell people the color is when they ask me.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Raise.
> View attachment 16822435
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


See your raise.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> 1...
> 
> B...
> 
> IV...


Doc, are you testing if we're all paying attention to your WOT, or you drunk already?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Doc, are you testing if we're all paying attention to your WOT, or you drunk already?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Using that plating color has been a frustrating experience.
> 
> I asked my vendor to send me a bezel sample, with lume, along with a number of dial samples with different Pantone colors, to see if we could find a match.
> 
> ...


Oooooo, so what you're saying then in a round about way Doc, reading between the lines, that a bronze Nth is in the pipeworks....



The Mack is a way to bridge the SS to bronzo gap...yay

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Slant said:


> Doc, are you testing if we're all paying attention to your WOT, or you drunk already?


So, you are into technical publications, too? This kind of joke is easily lost on many.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Speaking of bezels not matching the dial, I really dislike my blue Monta Oceanking bezel. The watch is lovely, the ceramic bezel is certainly a quality piece but it does not fit the watch at all. Makes it feel plasticky and cheap. It's sheen and hue is completely different from the dial. The dial is electric; the bezel is a flat, lifeless blue. The photography does not seem to capture this stark difference. A proper DLC coated steel bezel would be perfect for this watch. Seems like ceramic was chosen because "muh ceramic" some how "belongs" on a $2000 watch. Fortunately, Monta says they can swap the bezel out for a plain stainless one for a price and I'm probably going to do it. I think it will make for a much higher-end feeling watch.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Monitor calibration FTW.

LQTM


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Speaking of bezels not matching the dial, I really dislike my blue Monta Oceanking bezel. The watch is lovely, the ceramic bezel is certainly a quality piece but it does not fit the watch at all. Makes it feel plasticky and cheap. It's sheen and hue is completely different from the dial. The dial is electric; the bezel is a flat, lifeless blue. The photography does not seem to capture this stark difference. A proper DLC coated steel bezel would be perfect for this watch. Seems like ceramic was chosen because "muh ceramic" some how "belongs" on a $2000 watch. Fortunately, Monta says they can swap the bezel out for a plain stainless one for a price and I'm probably going to do it. I think it will make for a much higher-end feeling watch.


Indeed, I felt the same way about several otherwise very nice watches with ceramic bezels. The glossy finish doesn't appeal to me at all.

Conversely, the few ceramic bezels I've seen with brushed or blasted finishes also didn't look quite right. They looked like a chalkboard.

If I had my druthers, we'd have more choices in PVD/DLC plating colors. Once you get beyond basic black and all the various golds, the choices become much more limited, especially when we consider not just what's possible, but more importantly, what's likely to sell.

The new Watch Gecko Subs feature aluminum bezel inserts, with colors Watch Gecko specified. Seeing how thin and flimsy the inserts for the Orthos were, I was concerned.

But I was pleasantly surprised to see how robust and well-made the WG bezels appear to be. I think part of the reason stems from how thick they are, in order to slot into the same space our steel bezels do. 

Once we put them up for sale as replacement parts, I suspect many people will want to buy an aluminum insert to replace the original steel insert, if only to get a color we can't produce with PVD/DLC coatingn.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Monitor calibration FTW.
> 
> LQTM


Right?

Can't let more than a year go by without someone asking about a color, and inevitably having a discussion about monitor calibrations.

It's like the annual running of the bulls, or watching the cherry blossoms in DC, or Mardi Gras, or the argument with my wife over the thermostat...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

When we get serious about color, we run a contract color proof (usually Epson) from a print production source. Monitor calibration only gets you so far. 

But we do this for print, not dial color, or PVD. And there's no real good way to get a reliable proof of a spot PMS color out of a print source using built up colors. Best is an ink draw down or press sheet, analog being the coated bezels sent as proof of color (if not lume...).

Really, color to the nth degree (see what I did there?) is not our bailiwick - "We aren't creating lipstick ads." Nor are we catering to watch nerds... thank the godz for small favors...

If WG is doing aluminum bezels in red, my bet is that these will be by far the most popular aftermarket bezel inserts.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> ...If WG is doing aluminum bezels in red, my bet is that these will be by far the most popular aftermarket bezel inserts.


We didn't make red inserts for the four upcoming NTH x WG Subs. The insert colors we made are black, gray, blue, and green, according to WG's designs.

But, as soon as I saw the inserts as separate parts, I knew people would be interested in buying them, so that's a developing conversation with Watch Gecko.

If the idea to make red or other colors seems like a no-brainer, trust me, it isn't. 

My MOQ on the PVD/DLC steel inserts is 10 pieces per color/style. Our MOQ on the aluminum inserts is 200 (TWO HUNDREDDDDDD!!!) pieces, per color/tyle. I've yet to sell 200 steel inserts, total, all colors/styles combined.

The first 800 (hurts my eyes to read that) inserts produced go like this - 100 assembled into watches, ~160 shipped to me or Watch Gecko as spare parts (20 per color to me, 20 per color to them), and...540 remaining (135 per color). And, so far, we haven't really discussed nor figured out who's actually paying for all the inserts we're NOT using. My guess is - I am.

Assuming these first 100 WG Subs sell well, I assume they'll want to make more. In which event, we'll likely use a good number of the remaining black and blue inserts. We'll see how many we use of those, and how many of the gray or green. But, still, I'm guessing we'll end up with ~300 unused inserts, which will very likely take a LLLLLLLOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG time to sell as spare parts, especially if it's a lot of green and gray, but not many black or blue (because we used most of those for assembly into watches).

So...while making red inserts seems like an awesome idea, we'd have to make 200 of that color, which wouldn't be cheap to do, and might take a long time to sell. Plus, as soon as we make a color that wasn't part of an original color scheme (i.e., we make red just because we can, not because people might need a replacement red insert for a watch that originally came with one), we'd be opening up Pandora's box.

And I know what will come out of that box - endless requests for us to make inserts in all the colors of the rainbow.

Just kill me now.

A better idea, IMO, would come from WG wanting to make a model with a red insert, or any other color. At least then, we'd be using some of the 200 MOQ in assembly, and I could justify the excess parts production as unavoidable and defensible, if and when peeps start pissing in my ear about making other insert colors. 

"No, we're not making a ____ insert."

"But you made a red one!"

"Yes, because we had to, because there was a watch with a red insert. We're selling REPLACEMENT parts, i.e., parts to replace stock / original parts, not mod parts..."


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

So you really don't want to disrupt the bezel market we have on Alix and the 'bay?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> Indeed, I felt the same way about several otherwise very nice watches with ceramic bezels. The glossy finish doesn't appeal to me at all.
> 
> Conversely, the few ceramic bezels I've seen with brushed or blasted finishes also didn't look quite right. They looked like a chalkboard.
> 
> ...


I think you got it but to anyone else who reads my post, when I say "flat" above, I'm not talking about sheen. The bezel on the blue Oceanking is indeed polished blue ceramic. The only other watches I have with ceramic bezels in any semblance of rotation are my OG grey/stainless and the newer black/black PVD Scurfa Bell Diver 1 watches and my orange-dialed Scurfa Treasure Seeker. All three have polished black ceramic lumed bezels. They work there because they're not competing with the dial.

Compared the Monta to my blue Thresher, for example, clearly the dial and bezel are different materials so they will look different. However, the blues are complimentary, in the same family, same color temperature. They feel the same. Its a proper match.

Aluminum is a fine material and if more colors are available, that's great too. Especially for the special editions as it can only interest more people and provide greater variety. MOQ sucks, though. Incidentally, the only other watch I own with a steel bezel insert is a Damasko DA46.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Speaking of NTH x WG subs, let’s go ahead and get a peek. I’m sure everyone here can keep it a secret. Agreed?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> We didn't make red inserts for the four upcoming NTH x WG Subs. The insert colors we made are black, gray, blue, and green, according to WG's designs.
> 
> But, as soon as I saw the inserts as separate parts, I knew people would be interested in buying them, so that's a developing conversation with Watch Gecko.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is "bronze bezel inserts"?


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I gave you a "helpful" despite no mention of pantone


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> So what you are saying is "bronze bezel inserts"?


For the bronze cased watch? 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

Only 4 left in the world? Seriously? Sweeeeet!


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

WatchGauge Exclusive! NÄCKEN FROST BLUE


DESCRIPTION Don't think of it as retro. The NTH Subs are our tribute to some revered icons, tracing their heritage back to timepieces issued to military divers in the post-war period. Those quintessential tool watches have only gotten better-looking with age. We wanted to combine their classic...




watchgauge.com





If not WatchGecko, at least the Watchgauge exclusive has "leaked"

Very handsome. I think the ice blue has the potential to look incredible in person


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> We didn't make red inserts for the four upcoming NTH x WG Subs. The insert colors we made are black, gray, blue, and green, according to WG's designs.


Slightly disappointed. If they were doing a sub in brown, similar to their NTH x WG DR, I'd be all over that like stink on ****. I'm still intrigued to see what the green bezel design looks like. I've been saving my lunch money for the long-awaited v2 AVG, but if these come out first and I like one, I'll jump.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Coriolanus said:


> I'll jump.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteveU said:


> Only 4 left in the world? Seriously? Sweeeeet!
> View attachment 16825752
> 
> View attachment 16825753


I think it's now 3 pieces, actually.


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

docvail said:


> I think it's now 3 pieces, actually.


Feels like exclusivity. I like it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of low-stock stuff...this is such a strange business sometimes...

We'll make something, some design, and it'll sell well, or it won't, or maybe it will at first, but then it won't, and there doesn't seem to be much logic to why. But, inevitably, we'll end up with a few pieces of some design (like those last 3 Cointreaus) sitting unsold, somewhere, waiting for them to be bought, for what seems like an eternity.

Then, as soon as the last one sells, I mean, literally within days, sometimes hours, someone will contact me out of the blue to ask when we'll make more. It's unbelievable. Happens EVERY time.

It's like - we made 50 or 100 pieces. We sold 80% in the first month, and another 10%-15% in the next 3-6 months. That was five or ten months ago. The last 2-3 pieces have been where they are for a while, with my team periodically pointing to them, effectively saying, "LOOK! The LAST 2-3 pieces, we'll EVER make, are right here, waiting for you. C'mon!!!"

"When will you make more?"

"Seriously, were you in a coma the past year? Wait...you weren't in a coma were you? [feigned embarrassment emoji]"

Sometimes, before they sell out, someone will contact me to ask when we'll make more, or otherwise lament that something appears to be sold out. I'll tell them there are still some available, and where to find them. Then I'll look, and see that nobody's bought one, days, even weeks later.

"I wish you still made the v.1 Näcken Modern Blue."

"The last two pieces are still available, here..."

[crickets]

Thinking about this industry hurts my head. Businesses are supposed to turn inventory over every 3 months. Production takes 4-5 months. Watch geeks typically want to think about a purchase for 6-12 months. Not only that, they'll kvetch about what they CAN'T buy, then hesitate when they CAN buy it.

"I'd buy one right now if you made more."

"Good news. They're still available, here."

"Oh...I didn't mean right NOW. We just found out my girlfriend's cat is pregnant and we need a new refrigerator..."

Never in the history of commerce has anyone who uttered the phrase "I'd buy it right now" when they thought something was unavailable ever bought anything immediately following the revelation that said item was in fact available for purchase, right now.

I think there should be a law which forces people to follow through and buy whatever they were talking about. Sort of like in Poker. Verbal bets are binding. No take-backs.

We made a watch almost 2 years ago. I shipped it to a retailer outside the US, who literally did nothing to tell the world he had it. It sat in his stock, unsold, for the next TWENTY MONTHS. I got so sick of seeing how the retailer's older inventory numbers never changed. I offered to buy back a dozen pieces of older, all-but-sold-out-yet-still-hanging-around SKUs.

Got them back barely 2 months ago. Sold the last one today, as in, the last one of that SKU, the last one we'll ever make. It was one I thought might hang around forever. Now it's gone forever. But it actually wasn't that hard to sell it, or any of the others I bought back. Just put them up for sale on my website, and told people we had them.

I know someone will contact me within the next week or two to ask when we'll make more.

Please don't be that guy.

If you're looking at one of our models, the longer you've been looking at it, the more likely it is that we're down to just 1 or 2 pieces of that SKU left available worldwide, and when (not if) they sell, the last thing I'm going to want to do is immediately make more. I'm talking about roughly 1/3 of all the models currently available.


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## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

Another Antilles on the wrist today


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

So this post has only the most tenuous NTH connection. But my youngest is about to head off to college — St. Mary’s College of Maryland — located on a beautiful river. He will be joining the windsurfing club, maybe sailing club too — not that I’m at all jealous. So of course he needs a diver! (OK I already gave him one a couple years ago but he likes watches. Apples and trees.). So today I’m giving him this one after installing the rubber strap (he thinks bracelets are an old guy look). This was one of the first watches that started me collecting divers and it’s served me well for nearly 15 years. It makes me smile to think of him wearing his dad’s watch. 

The slight NTH connection? — I first offered him my orange version of this watch but he wasn’t impressed with the color after seeing my far superior orange NTH Swaardvis. Lol.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Please don't be that guy.


So, I'm not that guy (not exactly, at least), but I've thought about this and I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective.

I've purchased 3 NTHs (and 1 L&H). As a matter of fact, the L&H was a Spectre II that had long since been sold out. As I was lamenting this fact here one day, Doc mentioned that he had a gently used demo watch or some such, and I scooped it. So like I said, not exactly that guy in that I've followed through at least once.

That being said, for every NTH I've actually purchased, I've done the long flirtatious consideration thing with another 10. Perfect example, the absinthe Azores, which I admire longingly from afar but never quite pull the trigger on.

I think the psychological aspect that exists in this gap between interested and committed is the allure of the unavailable. Imagine you're admiring a really good looking girl from across the bar. No way she'd every talk to someone like you, right? But then imagine she slides on over and starts talking to you. Whoa! your lucky day! ...but now things have gotten real, and you start asking a lot of questions that you hadn't previously. What the heck is wrong with this girl that you're not seeing?

I think this happens with all watches. I wonder how many people on the Rolex waiting list decline when they finally get the call. I did. A few years back, I had an AD put me on the list for a no-date sub. Got the call a lot sooner than I'd expected, and had to decline. I could have rounded up that cash and gotten it done, but stuff got real in a hurry. Suddenly I was thinking of stuff that I hadn't worried about when I was chatting it up with the sales guy. How am I going to get my wife to sign off on this? Shouldn't I be putting that money towards new gutters for the house? Maybe this is the market finally loosening up, and I'll be able to get one cheaper in the secondary market if I'm just patient.

Point is, I get where you're going Doc, and this is well-trodden ground in this forum. But I'm not surprised, and I don't even particularly fault the guys who flirt a lot in the abstract but fail to seal the deal when things get real. That no-man's land between thinking about it and doing it can be a big, weird place.

tl;dr: "The forbidden fruit must be tasted":


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> So, I'm not that guy (not exactly, at least), but I've thought about this and I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective.
> 
> I've purchased 3 NTHs (and 1 L&H). As a matter of fact, the L&H was a Spectre II that had long since been sold out. As I was lamenting this fact here one day, Doc mentioned that he had a gently used demo watch or some such, and I scooped it. So like I said, not exactly that guy in that I've followed through at least once.
> 
> ...


Actually, that's an interesting take on it, a view I never considered. I can understand it. Sometimes it's more comfortable to lament about the ones that got away than to commit to the ones who might still be available.

I liked a girl my first semester in college. I was still screwing up the courage to ask her out when a friend of mine started dating her. I wanted to kill him, but had to (grudgingly) admit he was right when he pointed out that I never made my move, and hadn't really made it clear to him that I liked her.

My earlier post wasn't meant to be a "rant". I wasn't angry about it, I swear.

I got to thinking about it in a weird, roundabout way, when I sold the last piece of something we made two years ago. It was a good thing that happened, and I felt good about it. And yet, it also reminded me of something bad - the fact that the retailer who had it the last two years didn't put any effort into selling it - and that kind of irritated me.

I sometimes get caught up thinking about seemingly disconnected things, whereby I often find not-obvious connections, which leads me down the path of "trying to figure stuff out". What does a survey of watch geeks have to do with business finance principles and manufacturing lead times? The common denominator is how they all impact my business.

Back when we were selling watches faster than we could make them, I got in the habit of not just allowing, but actually encouraging my retailers to buy all the inventory from a new release, because it just made sense. Why hold them back from buying as much as they wanted, if they were just going to sell out and come back looking for more?

Shame on me for not having more foresight, or for being too slow to recognize the shifts in the landscape as they were happening. It took me too long to realize our production had caught up to demand, and I was shipping too much inventory to retailers, especially those in overseas markets where we just never had huge sales volume, and who never invested enough in promoting their own businesses.

That's what's led to me tracking inventory for over 60 SKUs, a third of which should have been sold out long ago, but for the last 1-3 pieces of so many of those SKUs being "stuck" somewhere I can't retrieve them.

It's not my customers' fault they think those SKUs are in constant production, and will be available forever. It's mine. My frustration is less with them than it is with myself, for my own bad decisions, and with the retailers who haven't done enough to move the inventory in the interim. I can excuse failure when I see someone making an honest effort. I can't excuse it when it's the inevitable result of a complete lack of effort.

If I'd been more observant, sooner, and held back more inventory rather than shipping it all, we'd have sold it all by now. I'd be tracking inventory for 40 SKUs, not 60, and not investing any effort or time in telling people where to find the last 1-3 pieces of something. Instead, I'd be smugly shrugging when people asked me when we'd be making more of those sold-out SKUs.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

A tiny role might play that some distries have a couple of watches labeled "out of stock", maybe even with a service to "email me when available again". This is suggesting strongly that the item will return.
I bought my Renegade because I knew the v1 case is out of production, but not everyone is following your posts here...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Tuesday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

The couple times I've purchased NTH new, there has not been any waiting - usually I'm on a waiting list, release, and [boom] purchase. 

I mean, I know that they usually do not sell out immediately, but having been burned hard with other microbrands, always looking to get in early. Just in case.

That said, the two I chose - Amphion Commando, and Scorpene Nomad - were not immediate sell-out successes, either. I think I saw the last of the Nomads still around up to a year+ later. 

Thing is, if they are not immediate sell-outs, or at least selling out within that magic 90-day inventory turnover figure Doc mentions, I fully don't expect that particular model will ever be made again. At least in that combo. With inserts for sale separate, you can always cobble something together - Doc's mentioned a v2 Scorpene release, add a Nomad bezel and you're set - but still a gamble.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> A tiny role might play that some distries have a couple of watches labeled "out of stock", maybe even with a service to "email me when available again". This is suggesting strongly that the item will return.
> I bought my Renegade because I knew the v1 case is out of production, but not everyone is following your posts here...


Also a good point.

At times I've suggested to retailers that they ought remove sold-out models from their sites, especially if those models were discontinued, or at least unlikely to be produced again. 

I think the value is in keeping the websites uncluttered, making what is available easier to find, reducing visitors' frustrations, and in avoiding having people ask when some item will be back in stock. Out of sight, out of mind.

The counter-argument is that leaving sold-out items visible sends the message that items do sell out, helping to create a sense of urgency. If you see 10 of 30 items on a page are sold out, you might take less time before purchasing the item you're considering, if it's still in stock.

There's also an argument that it helps with SEO. If someone goes looking for a specific NTH model, the website that has that model listed will be higher in the search results than one that doesn't, even if the model is sold out. 

Part of the problem too is that for whatever reason, no matter what we do, some folks don't seem to grasp that we have retailers, and that if my website shows an item as "in stock", when we clearly don't have it, at least one of our retailers does. 

Thus, we spend some of our time playing traffic cop for people who somehow overlook the directional signs we have in place. This is part of why I've been holding back more inventory recently, knowing that it's better for my retailers to sell out before I do, not vice-versa. My site is probably the first, and often the last and only stop for someone looking for an NTH.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> The couple times I've purchased NTH new, there has not been any waiting - usually I'm on a waiting list, release, and [boom] purchase.
> 
> I mean, I know that they usually do not sell out immediately, but having been burned hard with other microbrands, always looking to get in early. Just in case.
> 
> ...


It's been the case with several models that we sold 80% of what we produced quickly, and the last 5%-10% that hung around for what seemed like an eternity most likely did so because we shipped too much to overseas retailers in smaller markets.

That's why I sometimes brow-beat retailers to sell their unsold inventory back to me, so that I can list it on my own site, where I know it will sell more quickly.

The last of the Nomads was literally the LAST of the Nomads. Just one piece left unsold more than a year after we produced that variant. Same with at least half a dozen SKUs I can rattle off the top of my head.

The thing is - when that happens, no, I probably don't plan to make more, ever, certainly not any time soon. And yet, I wonder how I'd look at it if we'd kept more inventory here, and sold out of it sooner. 

Perhaps there's an argument to be made that if the last piece or few pieces of something have been sitting around too long, but in some remote / smaller market, and otherwise the rest of the world has been sold out for a while, that there actually is enough demand to make more, especially if people are asking when we'll make more, and hesitating to buy what's still available because of where it is.

The last piece of something sitting unsold in my own inventory tells me more than having the last piece of something sitting unsold in a smaller overseas market.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone here remembers...

Does a bracelet for the Seiko SARB017 Alpinist fit the NTH Subs? I think I remember our bracelets fit the SARB, but I'm not sure if the opposite is also true.

Otherwise - anyone here know of a good two-tone bracelet to fit the NTH Subs? I just bought a used Barracuda Blue for my wife's friend, and she wants a two-tone bracelet for it. Not sure if she likes oyster, jubilee, or something else, so any recommendations on solid choices at reasonable prices would be appreciated.

Prefer solid end-links, and a halfway decent clasp. Butterfly clasp is okay, I think. Doesn't have to be a glidelock or anything fancy.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

No idea but that sounds like a nice looking watch for the Mrs. Interested to see if and what might work. Don’t think she’d be too comfortable in a 40 mil size, however. Still like the idea regardless.


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

For bracelets - I experimented with a couple of bracelets for an Omega Seamaster 300 Pro from Uncle Seiko and Forstner and the endlinks seem to fit alright.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If anyone's wondering, one of the guys in the BSH confirmed the SARB017 bracelets will fit the Subs, pretty nicely.


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## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> The couple times I've purchased NTH new, there has not been any waiting - usually I'm on a waiting list, release, and [boom] purchase.
> 
> I mean, I know that they usually do not sell out immediately, but having been burned hard with other microbrands, always looking to get in early. Just in case.
> 
> ...


Amphion Commando and Scorpene Nomad are great choices — 2 that I wish I had! Enjoy them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Ike2 said:


> Amphion Commando and Scorpene Nomad are great choices — 2 that I wish I had! Enjoy them.


Well, um...










How about best of both worlds? If I had to get rid of watches, this would be close to last to go, and part of a 2-watch collection, if it came right down to that.

Very funny - I bought a regular Scorpene (used) and thought, "If only ot had a 12hr bezel." The Amphion Commando came out, and the Scorp was sold to buy the AC. Nomad was announced, and the AC was sold to buy it... and then Doc started selling inserts. He got two sales out of me - coulda just modded my OG Scorp, if bezel inserts were available back then...


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Someone here remembers...
> 
> Does a bracelet for the Seiko SARB017 Alpinist fit the NTH Subs? I think I remember our bracelets fit the SARB, but I'm not sure if the opposite is also true.
> 
> ...



Just FYI, your Mk I beads of rice bracelet fit my Omega moonwatch and my Maen Hudson Mk 1 very nicely!


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

NTH Swiftsure this morning.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> If anyone's wondering, one of the guys in the BSH confirmed the SARB017 bracelets will fit the Subs, pretty nicely.


I think I tried the sarb017 uncle seiko bracelet and I seem to remember it didn't fit recently. Their new sarb017 bracelets are now solid end links. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Big_wrist said:


> For bracelets - I experimented with a couple of bracelets for an Omega Seamaster 300 Pro from Uncle Seiko and Forstner and the endlinks seem to fit alright.
> View attachment 16834273


The uncle seiko bracelet..hollow or solid end links? I recall mine didn't fit because of solid end links. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Big_wrist (Jul 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> The uncle seiko bracelet..hollow or solid end links? I recall mine didn't fit because of solid end links.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Solid end links. There is only a very small amount of movement between the front of the end link and the case.
I’ve tried the US1479 and the Holzer.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guy from the BSH was able to attach a solid end-link Strapcode MIltat bracelet for the SARB to a Sub.

Worst case, I know an SKX013 bracelet will fit.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Big_wrist said:


> Solid end links. There is only a very small amount of movement between the front of the end link and the case.
> I’ve tried the US1479 and the Holzer.


I have the Holzer and yes that fits. I have the sarb017 president and mine didn't work. I may have given up too fast lol. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

kpjimmy said:


> Mack Tuesday
> View attachment 16833201
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


@kpjimmy how you liking The Mack? Looks great! I think no date is the way to go.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mack today.









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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

White Dial Wednesday. 
Playing with the sticker printer because Canadians just _have_ to have their caution and warnings in both English and French.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

tregan13 said:


> @kpjimmy how you liking The Mack? Looks great! I think no date is the way to go.


It's awesome. Get one if you can. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Those Macks look great! Better irl wrist shots than marketing images imo


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

kpjimmy said:


> It's awesome. Get one if you can.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Great, now I'm torn between the Mack and another timepiece on my radar! Sweet torture


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Of no real importance, only if you want to geek out on the process of making steel parts for watches...

First off, understand that my knowledge of metallurgy and various manufacturing processes is limited. It's mostly based on my own reading, my layman's understanding of what I've read, what I've been told by vendors and others with more knowledge than I have, and what I've seen firsthand.

Somehow I got on the email list of a cast steel vendor in China. I don't pay much attention to the emails, but the one I got today caught my eye, due to the subject, which is also the headline in this article:









The differences between forging and casting | Sand Casting, Investment Casting & CNC Machining in China


The differences between forging and casting, The advantages and disadvantages of forging and casting The differences between forging and casting Casting Information Casting Quality forcus on metal casting industry.



castingquality.com





I can't tell if the article was written by someone for whom English is a second language, or if the prose just isn't that elegant, due to the subject matter.

Because of the wide-spread use of the word "moulds" in the industry, many are led to believe or assume that steel parts used to make cases and the like are cast, meaning molten steel is poured into a part-shaped mold (mould), then left to cool.

But at least one person who claimed to have expertise in steel manufacturing told me that you couldn't cast 316L stainless steel, or perhaps just that you shouldn't, or it simply isn't done. Whether it is or isn't done, cast metal parts are typically weaker, due to defects such as porosity (essentially, pockets of void / vacuum inside the metal, like air bubbles, but without any air in them).

Instead, our parts are "cold-forged", meaning room-temperature steel is formed by putting the parts through a series of hydraulic presses, fitted with tool-and-die pairings, and the parts are given shape by way of stamping them with tremendous force. The force makes the steel parts more dense, and thus harder.

But the process of forging also introduces stresses into the steel part, reducing its strength. To "heal" those weaknesses, the parts also go through a process called "annealing", whereby parts are subjected to tremendous heat. The heat expands the part, allowing the atoms to re-align, thereby healing the parts of any weakness, and making the parts stronger.

At times, I've said our steel parts are "hardened steel", because according to my understanding, they are, by way of the processes described above, and in that article. Forging hardens the part, and annealing strengthens it, compared to cast parts, which are inherently weaker, and also CNC-machined parts, I'd think, because CNC parts made from billet wouldn't have gone through the forging and annealing processes. CNC machining is basically just taking a block of metal and cutting material away until you have the shape you want.

But I think some folks have questioned my saying the parts are hardened, comparing what we're doing (or not doing, as the case may be) to brands which add a surface hardening treatment. I think @X2-Elijah made the point that if we weren't doing anything "extra", beyond what a lot of other brands are likewise doing to make their parts, then there was something vaguely misleading in what I was saying.

(I didn't take offense, by the way, and I'm not trying to spotlight X2 here. I thought his view was reasonable enough, depending on one's knowledge regarding the subject matter, or lack of it.)

My take on those surface hardening treatments is that they're mostly gimmicks. If the part is already hardened and strengthened, I don't see the point in adding a surface hardening treatment. Why? Because at most, it's only going to offer the most minimal protection of a surface finish, but won't prevent dents or deeper scratches, because resistance to that sort of damage is entirely a function of the hardness of the underlying part, not just its surface hardness.

This isn't exactly an argument over semantics, or entirely esoteric. There are various tests and scales to measure hardness. I believe the most decisive tests and most reliable scales are those that test / measure hardness by doing more than simply attempting to scratch the surface, which is literally all some hardness tests entail.

Surface hardening treatments make more sense, in my opinion, when there's an inherent risk that needs to be mitigated in some way, due to the properties of the underlying material.

Sinn's tegimentation seems meant to compensate for their use of high-yield "submarine" steel, which is stronger, but less hard.

Damasko's "damest" surface treatment seems meant to prevent corrosion of their high-carbon steel (which isn't literally "ice" hardened, since no ice is involved, but rather hardened using some sort of hydraulic fluid, at least based on what I remember reading, because that's how you harden high-carbon steel), because high-carbon steel, while harder than 316L, is more prone to rust.

Actually, just looking at Damasko's website now, it seems like maybe they've jumped on Sinn's "submarine steel" bandwagon.

So...yeah, until some expert explains why I shouldn't say our parts are hardened steel, I'll maintain they are (even if a lot of other brands are doing the same thing), if I'm asked why we don't use additional surface hardening treatments.

Before anyone asks if I'd make a part using 904L, like Rolex, no, I wouldn't. Again, I don't see the point. The higher nickel (and other metals) content in the alloy makes 904 more expensive, and softer (I'm pretty sure), without any real benefit, aside from "oooh...shiny", and a "higher resistance to corrosion" which is only of real value if you spend all your time swimming around in vats of acid.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> Of no real importance, only if you want to geek out on the process of making steel parts for watches...
> 
> First off, understand that my understanding of metallurgy and various manufacturing processes is limited. It's mostly based on my own reading, my layman's understanding of what I've read, what I've been told by vendors and others with more knowledge than I have, and what I've seen first hand.
> 
> ...


As an amateur knife maker that's been cutting and forging steel over the past few years, I find this really interesting. 

Definitely no expert on submarine steel, but I think both Germany and the US used HY, High Yield steel on sub hulls for strength and durability.

316L stainless steel is fine for watch steel. If you really wanted to make it harder, you could go through the process of changing the molecular structure by adding more carbon and decreasing some of the nickel, etc. This is what some may do to make their steel more hard on the Vickers scale. 

I think they're probably a lot of loaded statements made by customers, manufacturers, etc. on "hardened steel". Hardened steel just means that you've taken a medium to high carbon steel and heat treated, quenched and tempered it. Anything else you do to make the steel harder will further change its molecular structure, grain structure, etc. The type of steel watch companies like Sinn use, is a different type of HY steel, aka Uboat German steel. Not sure what the official name of the steel is, but it's definitely tough and will have a higher hardness value than 316L. Tegiment hardens the surface. I don't think it hardens that actual steel itself.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tregan13 said:


> As an amateur knife maker that's been cutting and forging steel over the past few years, I find this really interesting.
> 
> Definitely no expert on submarine steel, but I think both Germany and the US used HY, High Yield steel on sub hulls for strength and durability.
> 
> ...


Not looking to start an argument about this with you or anyone else. 

I may not be an expert, and I'll defer to anyone who is, but I did a pretty deep-dive into this stuff a few years back, when another forum member, a guy with LOADS of expertise, publicly wondered why more brands didn't use 440 steel (what Damasko uses). My search for answers took me deep into the rabbit hole of metal-geekery.

Submarine steel would be incrementally (as in, barely) harder than un-annealed 316L. We're talking about a Vickers hardness of 210-220 for unannealed 316L, and 220-280 for "marine-grade" HY (high-yield) steel. For comparison, high-carbon steel would be in the mid-500's to low 700's range. 

HY's value over 316 is in increased strength, not really increased hardness. The higher strength makes for better submarine hulls, which need to expand and contract without any decrease in their sea-worthiness.

Once 316L is forged/annealed, I think it would be harder than submarine steel, regardless of what country it came from. My opinion is that forged & annealed "surgical grade" 316L is a better choice than "Marine Grade" for watch parts, due to its higher hardness.

I think watch geeks get hypnotized by wiz-bang sounding terms, especially when wielded by marketing departments inside brands selling more expensive watches. If my business had a few decades more history, and a CEO more willing to BS the market, NTH could likewise invent and distribute nonsense on a scale that could accurately be described as "epic".


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

docvail said:


> Not looking to start an argument about this with you or anyone else.
> 
> I may not be an expert, and I'll defer to anyone who is, but I did a pretty deep-dive into this stuff a few years back, when another forum member, a guy with LOADS of expertise, publicly wondered why more brands didn't use 440 steel (what Damasko uses). My search for answers took me deep into the rabbit hole of metal-geekery.
> 
> ...


Totally agree on the hypnotizing!

Yep, agree with you in theory, sound thinking. Any steel is a balance of hardness, softness, strength.

It's all in the type of steel (make up of the steel, molecular structure) and completely dependent on how you treat the steel once you pick a type. Every type is different and has it's own beneficial uses, whether on a sub, a watch or a knife.

What I still find fascinating in working with steel is how soft it is when you start out cutting it, how it gets hard when heated and quenched, but is hard yet brittle until tempered to make it a balance of hard with just the right amount of flex to keep it strong.

People earn their PHD's in this subject matter for a reason. 

Larrin Thomas is a steel metallurgist in PA with a PHD. Us knife nerds and blacksmiths love him. He creates new types of steels. Renowned expert. Might check him out.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> I have the Holzer and yes that fits. I have the sarb017 president and mine didn't work. I may have given up too fast lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Just tried the uncle Seiko sarb017 president bracelet again. Confirmed that it doesn't fit because of the solid end links. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

tregan13 said:


> Totally agree on the hypnotizing!
> 
> Yep, agree with you in theory, sound thinking. Any steel is a balance of hardness, softness, strength.
> 
> ...


Ah knife steels. 
My 1095s... baton em through wood, sharpen it on a river rock. Perfect survival knife steel. 
My Maxamet Spyderco Mule Team. Will hold an edge longer than no other even after daily work use. Need diamond stones to sharpen it. But I dropped it a while back, and broke off a good 1/4" off the tip.

Balance.


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

tregan13 said:


> As an amateur knife maker that's been cutting and forging steel over the past few years, I find this really interesting.
> 
> Definitely no expert on submarine steel, but I think both Germany and the US used HY, High Yield steel on sub hulls for strength and durability.
> 
> ...


in addition to surface hardened Austenitic Submarine Steel, Damasko another German manufacturer, also offers an "ice hardened" Martensitic stainless steel, which is not just surface hardened, but all of the steel in the case is hardened. 

Ultimately though, all steel alloys have advantages and disadvantages. There is no magic formulation.


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## tregan13 (Nov 2, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> Ah knife steels.
> My 1095s... baton em through wood, sharpen it on a river rock. Perfect survival knife steel.
> My Maxamet Spyderco Mule Team. Will hold an edge longer than no other even after daily work use. Need diamond stones to sharpen it. But I dropped it a while back, and broke off a good 1/4" off the tip.
> 
> Balance.


1095 is great. Been using 80CRV2, another great steal for choppers and chunky drop points. Came highly recommended from Jason Knight.

Sorry to hear about the Spyderco. Time for a replacement!

Hopefully Doc won't toss me off the forum for turning this into a knife enthusiast thread


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For any EU or UK peeps interested in the Mack, we just shipped a few to Watch Gecko in the UK and Serious Watches in the EU. They should be up on those sites within the next week or two.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kind of rare - 1 of 75 produced, and rarely seen on the used market these days, for anyone interested...









NTH Nazario Sauro (RARE) - Limited Edition WatchGauge.com Exclusive | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH Nazario Sauro (RARE) - Limited Edition WatchGauge.com Exclusive at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

Doc, when's the new NTH/WatchGecko Sub collab coming out?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> Doc, when's the new NTH/WatchGecko Sub collab coming out?


Soon.

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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> The insert colors we made are black, gray, blue, and green, according to WG's designs.
> 
> But, as soon as I saw the inserts as separate parts, I knew people would be interested in buying them, so that's a developing conversation with Watch Gecko.


Based on WatchGecko's sneak peek image, I'll be first in line for a blue one, if it's a vintage Tudor-y navy blue!

Say, what's the Pan... (just kidding).

Today for #NTHursday:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Soon.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...











@Rhorya



JMSpivey said:


> Speaking of NTH x WG subs, let’s go ahead and get a peek. I’m sure everyone here can keep it a secret. Agreed?





juskiewrx said:


> Doc, when's the new NTH/WatchGecko Sub collab coming out?





RotorRonin said:


> Based on WatchGecko's sneak peek image, I'll be first in line for a blue one, if it's a vintage Tudor-y navy blue!
> 
> Say, what's the Pan... (just kidding).
> 
> Today for #NTHursday:











Introducing The WatchGecko x NTH Vintage Subs


What is your grail watch? When we ran a series of features entitled “15 Questions” this was always one of the favourites, whomever we were interviewing. No surprise that vintage Rolexes featured regularly in the answers; a particularly common dream being a 1960s Submariner, akin to the big crown...




www.watchgecko.com













WG Exclusive 2022 NTH Vintage Subs


For WatchGecko’s newest collaboration with NTH, we wanted to imagine what the Amphion would have looked like as a vintage Submariner homage, but with all the specs you need from a modern diver. After months of inventive rendering and prototypes, we are proud to present the 2022 NTH Vintage Subs...




www.watchgecko.com


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Looks great! But way closer to Tudor than expected. Not a bad thing. Just not my cup of tea this round...thank God lol

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Atticus Pharos Phriday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Introducing The WatchGecko x NTH Vintage Subs
> 
> 
> What is your grail watch? When we ran a series of features entitled “15 Questions” this was always one of the favourites, whomever we were interviewing. No surprise that vintage Rolexes featured regularly in the answers; a particularly common dream being a 1960s Submariner, akin to the big crown...
> ...


I bought and sold an NTH Sub twice, because I always feel like it was slightly too big for my wrist. This batch seriously makes me want to buy one again. (Un)luckily, my wallet doesn’t allow me this time. WG said _"These watches have initially been produced in an initial batch of only 25 of each variant"_, so I guess once they are gone, they are gone forever  I envy those who could get one right now. 
By the way, what happened to the font you used for all the Subs? The one on WG variants wasn't bad, it was just not as elegant as the original font used by the Subs.


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

Just beautiful new models! I really like the new blue bezel color.


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

What's the PMS# for the black version?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This one today.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> ...so I guess once they are gone, they are gone forever  I envy those who could get one right now.
> By the way, what happened to the font you used for all the Subs? The one on WG variants wasn't bad, it was just not as elegant as the original font used by the Subs.


We assembled 25 for this release. If they sell well enough / fast enough, we might make more.

These Subs were designed by Watch Gecko. They picked the dial patterns, the handsets, the typefaces, the lume, etc. We basically just gave them our case design and turned them loose.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> What's the PMS# for the black version?


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Decisions. Would like to see one of these on the BoR bracelet. All four variants look pretty great, nice work.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

JMSpivey said:


> Decisions. Would like to see one of these on the BoR bracelet. All four variants look pretty great, nice work.
> View attachment 16840645
> View attachment 16840648


I’m liking those, might have to make room by putting one of my DR’s up for the chop.
Mind you I might just wait and see their new twist on the DR again.
One in, one out.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

for completeness here are the other two


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In an effort to shorten the delivery timeline and save on shipping costs, we had all the WG Subs shipped directly to WG from our vendor.

As such, I haven't even seen one of them in person yet. But that blue is seriously calling to me. I may have to break my rules about date windows, where they're located, magnifiers, and aluminum inserts.

Because this, is sexy AF...


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

But 800 quid 🥵… 1/3 rd of a Tudor entry ticket.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> This one is seriously calling to me. I may have to break my current rule about buying new watches than I haven't produced myself.
> 
> Because this, is sexy AF...


FTFY

-Rusty


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Riddim Driven said:


> But 800 quid 🥵… 1/3 rd of a Tudor entry ticket.


That's a great point. For a little more than the price of a Tudor, you can buy all four!

-Rusty


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> ...By the way, what happened to the font you used for all the Subs? The one on WG variants wasn't bad, it was just not as elegant as the original font used by the Subs.


When WG told me what they wanted to do, I was a little apprehensive, because it was clear they were steering into the "vintage inspiration" thing even more than NTH already was. I think the typefaces were chosen as part of that effort. Take a close look at the two lines of text at 6 o'clock, and compare them to the image I posted just above...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Riddim Driven said:


> But 800 quid 🥵… 1/3 rd of a Tudor entry ticket.


Where are you buying a new Tudor for $2400? Seems like a new BB58 will set you back close to $4k. Even the entry-level Ranger on a bracelet is $3k.

The £680 price includes the UK's 20% VAT. With the weaker pound / stronger dollar, the ex-VAT price would be $670, which is cheaper than our standard Subs, which is insane, because the thicker crystals add to their production cost. 

If I were selling the WG Subs on my site, they'd be at least $750, plus shipping, so...$800, with free shipping, isn't really a "bad" deal. You might be paying $20 more than what you'd pay buying direct from my site.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> The £680 price includes the UK's 20% VAT. With the weaker pound / stronger dollar, the ex-VAT price would be $670, which is cheaper than our standard Subs, which is insane, because the thicker crystals add to their production cost.


Their site is pricing these at $816 US. If that's intentional because of the crystals, so be it. If it's a website glitch where they're not omitting VAT, they may want to fix that. Or am I misunderstanding and your "ex-VAT" comment is hypothetical?

ETA: Disregard, re-read your comment and i get it. Leaving this as a mea culpa.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Tempted by the gray Amphion, but not enough. I guess I'm still hanging on to my lunch money until the v2 AVG hits.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> The £680 price includes the UK's 20% VAT. With the weaker pound / stronger dollar, the ex-VAT price would be $670, which is cheaper than our standard Subs, which is insane, because the thicker crystals add to their production cost.
> 
> If I were selling the WG Subs on my site, they'd be at least $750, plus shipping, so...$800, with free shipping, isn't really a "bad" deal. You might be paying $20 more than what you'd pay buying direct from my site.


Never had any luck with WG removing the VAT for a US buyer... which is why I don't buy from them. Lots of deals to be had at Christopher Ward currently when paying in pounds... they do remove the VAT as one would expect.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Coriolanus said:


> Tempted by the gray Amphion, but not enough. I guess I'm still hanging on to my lunch money until the v2 AVG hits.


Real, real tempted by the reef green at the moment.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

winstoda said:


> Never had any luck with WG removing the VAT for a US buyer... which is why I don't buy from them. Lots of deals to be had at Christopher Ward currently when paying in pounds... they do remove the VAT as one would expect.


Same. They didn't remove the vat when I bought the white DR. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

That grey! I'd be a buyer, but the magnifier (with the date) puts me out of the game... shame.
And that VAT issue.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> @Rhorya
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why so serious?!

Amphion raised indices ordered.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Same. They didn't remove the vat when I bought the white DR.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Why don't they? And why would someone order when you are paying more than you have too? 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Why don't they? And why would someone order when you are paying more than you have too?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Not sure the reason but a very lucrative policy I'd think. Can't imagine they're sending her majesty the VAT... The crown would never tax anyone without British representation, would they? /sarcasm


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Doc, curious about the branding aspect on retailer-exclusive releases. 

Is there ever discussion of their branding on the dial? Is that an NTH thing, where you insist that an NTH-produced watch remains an NTH? Or more a retailer thing where they see more value in selling an NTH-branded exclusive than anything with their own brand on the dial?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Santa Fe for the last few days. This watch just works so well in my eyes. The Jubilee also adds a nice vintage look to the watch that really makes it something different. So glad I added the Kiger bezel with the touch of red, it really adds the the stark black & white aesthetics of the watch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Their site is pricing these at $816 US. If that's intentional because of the crystals, so be it. If it's a website glitch where they're not omitting VAT, they may want to fix that. Or am I misunderstanding and your "ex-VAT" comment is hypothetical?
> 
> ETA: Disregard, re-read your comment and i get it. Leaving this as a mea culpa.
> 
> View attachment 16840826





winstoda said:


> Never had any luck with WG removing the VAT for a US buyer... which is why I don't buy from them. Lots of deals to be had at Christopher Ward currently when paying in pounds... they do remove the VAT as one would expect.





kpjimmy said:


> Same. They didn't remove the vat when I bought the white DR.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Sorry if I caused confusion with my earlier post.

The Watch Gecko website does NOT remove VAT for ex-UK customers. The points I was trying to make were two:

1 - If the VAT was removed, the USD price would be $670 when you convert from Sterling at today's rates, which is cheap, very cheap, if you understand they'd be $750 plus shipping if we sold them on the NTH site. Watch Gecko locked in their costs / pricing when we started production, months ago, so the GBP price has fallen against the dollar in that time. It was essentially a point made in defense of the Subs pricing, generally.

2 - The with-VAT price of ~$800 is with free shipping, so even though it's more, because of the VAT, it's not a lot more when compared to what a US customer would pay if they were buying the same watch directly from NTH ($750 + shipping).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Doc, curious about the branding aspect on retailer-exclusive releases.
> 
> Is there ever discussion of their branding on the dial? Is that an NTH thing, where you insist that an NTH-produced watch remains an NTH? Or more a retailer thing where they see more value in selling an NTH-branded exclusive than anything with their own brand on the dial?


There hasn't been much if any discussion of it. Most co-branding we've done with retailer-exclusives has been on the case-back, if that. If they wanted to add co-branding to the dial, I'd probably discourage it.

I don't think any of my retailers view their stores' brands as being marketable enough on their own to warrant adding their branding to the dial. I'd agree. As much as I like them, and very much appreciate it when they can build their own customer loyalty, they're not "Tiffany", or whatever the big co-branded retail chain is.

Would you want an NTH with "Watch Gecko" or "Watch Gauge" on the dial? 

I think the Kiger logo on the Red Ronin made sense because Kiger had a brand of his own, as a manufacturer-designer. Likewise, the collabs with the BSH logo on them make sense. 

Conversely, a lot of people hated the Urban Gentry logo on the Catalina. The guys who bought them were mostly Urban Gentry fans.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Doc, I had a question on the Watch Gecko models. How come they used the Amphion name with the Mercedes hands? The Amphion has always had sword hands in your range. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Wow. Those gecko Nackens are incredible. Except for the date and cyclops... Oh well.
Thankfully no one decided to put Geckota on the dials.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Doc, I had a question on the Watch Gecko models. How come they used the Amphion name with the Mercedes hands? The Amphion has always had sword hands in your range.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


True, but what other model name from our existing range would be more appropriate? Unless we wanted to re-use Santa Cruz or Tiburón, the only other obvious alternative would seem to be inventing another new model name.

I'd say the Tiburón would be the most analogous model from our past designs, as it had the same dial pattern and Merc hands. But considering the watches are being sold in the UK, I think keeping the Amphion moniker (named after a UK Submarine class) makes more sense than a model named for Spanish Submarine (or for that matter, after the Argentinian Santa Cruz class).

The original Amphions were inspired by the ref 5513 / 5517 MilSubs (issued by the UK MOD in the early 70's), obviously, but there were other Subs around that time which were essentially identical, but for having Merc hands. Compare the Anchor Grey to the ref 1680 (introduced in 1969), and the Onyx Black to the ref. 16800 (c.1984).


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Omegafanboy said:


> Santa Fe for the last few days. This watch just works so well in my eyes. The Jubilee also adds a nice vintage look to the watch that really makes it something different. So glad I added the Kiger bezel with the touch of red, it really adds the the stark black & white aesthetics of the watch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cool watch and I like the Jubilee with it... those hands kind of disappear into the dial, though. I only wish it had more readable hands, like black center with silver edges? Or red edges to key into the bezel accent?


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

DesertArt said:


> Cool watch and I like the Jubilee with it... those hands kind of disappear into the dial, though. I only wish it had more readable hands, like black center with silver edges? Or red edges to key into the bezel accent?


It was just because I was in bright sulight and the angle was not great. Ordinarily the hands are really legible. 










There is a white Nacken that has solid black hands if that is what you prefer. If I was to swap these hand I would maybe go with Swords instead. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> Sorry if I caused confusion with my earlier post.
> 
> The Watch Gecko website does NOT remove VAT for ex-UK customers. The points I was trying to make were two:
> 
> ...


Not sure I follow the VAT conversation… they keep VAT for customers who aren’t required to pay it to subsidize their pricing?

For me the VAT issue is purely principle. I don’t pay taxes for other jurisdictions when I shop… not sure why anyone would. Of course this is coming from someone with no sales tax in general but not sure anyone is looking to pay unnecessary taxes. 


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Omegafanboy said:


> It was just because I was in bright sulight and the angle was not great. Ordinarily the hands are really legible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Black swords with red edges would be really cool.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Sorry if I caused confusion with my earlier post.
> 
> The Watch Gecko website does NOT remove VAT for ex-UK customers. The points I was trying to make were two:
> 
> ...


Still, had to accept $60 Duty to reimport back to the States. The new Amphion design is the bees knees, so I’m just accepting it and moving on. But it’s likely my last purchase from the Gecko. I don’t much like their insurance commercials anyway.


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## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

I _really_ like this watch except for the date/cyclops.
But if I were to sell this (new) watch, I'd photograph one with a better date alignment in the window. Every time I look at it, it stands out.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

Hope these versions do well for WG. Perhaps it would give NTH a chance to offer something similar or the same in the States for fans without buying oversees.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Not sure I follow the VAT conversation… they keep VAT for customers who aren’t required to pay it to subsidize their pricing?
> 
> For me the VAT issue is purely principle. I don’t pay taxes for other jurisdictions when I shop… not sure why anyone would. Of course this is coming from someone with no sales tax in general but not sure anyone is looking to pay unnecessary taxes.
> 
> ...


I'm not an expert on the UK's tax rules, but I believe if they collect the VAT, they pay the VAT to HMRS.

If you travel from Delaware to PA, and buy something which entails PA state sales tax, you pay the sales tax, even though you're from Delaware, and the seller pays that tax to the state.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davek35 said:


> I _really_ like this watch except for the date/cyclops.
> But if I were to sell this (new) watch, I'd photograph one with a better date alignment in the window. Every time I look at it, it stands out.
> View attachment 16844102


Or, you could just look at a different picture of it.

How's this? Better?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JMSpivey said:


> Hope these versions do well for WG. Perhaps it would give NTH a chance to offer something similar or the same in the States for fans without buying oversees.


We're making a project watch for some guys on a different forum, and they wanted the same crystal, without the cyclops. I'm sure they'll be posting pics once we deliver them.

Beyond that, I doubt we'll make wide use of the thicker crystal or aluminum inserts on our other models, at least until our sales volume can justify having an "even more vintage" version alongside the standard versions.

NTH has been relentlessly focused on ergonomics and ruggedness. I think adopting the thicker crystal and aluminum bezel would run counter to the brand's grain.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> If you travel from Delaware to PA, and buy something which entails PA state sales tax, you pay the sales tax, even though you're from Delaware, and the seller pays that tax to the state.


I’m very familiar with how sales tax works here in the states though any Delawarean with any sense avoids that scenario for the most part. But I’m not sure that’s an apples to apples comparison. I am not an expert in British taxation but did a quick google search for ‘uk vat for us customers’ and the first result is:


*Importing goods from the US to the UK*
If you’re importing goods from the USA, there’s no requirement for VAT registered businesses to account for VAT.
If you’re importing something from the US, the US sales tax will not be added, but rather, the UK tax rate (20%) will be paid on import. The UK VAT registered business will then be able to reclaim that amount of VAT on their VAT return in box 4 (VAT reclaimed in this period).
Essentially, this process cancels out the tax. US taxes are not charged, but the importer pays UK VAT on arrival and then reclaims the amount on their VAT return.

No matter the law, most watch guys are aware most European and British dealers do in fact remove this tax for US buyers. So for WG not to does seem a bit shady. At least to me.

editing to add my google work is also shady as my example is completely wrong. Example is wrong direction…


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

This example might actually apply:


Generally, if your client is a business customer, the place of supply will be where the client is based but if they are a non-business customer, the place of supply will be where you are based.
For most contractors, this means that your place of supply is generally where your customer is based.
If your *place of supply is in another EU country*, you do not need to charge UK VAT - providing they are a registered business in their country. You will need to request their VAT registration number and display this on your invoices. It will also need to be reported to HMRC within your VAT return and a separate EC sales list.
If your *place of supply is in a country other than the EU* then you do not need to charge VAT as it is outside the scope of VAT entirely. No further actions are needed for this other than not including VAT on your invoices.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> I’m very familiar with how sales tax works here in the states though any Delawarean with any sense avoids that scenario for the most part. But I’m not sure that’s an apples to apples comparison. I am not an expert in British taxation but did a quick google search for ‘uk vat for us customers’ and the first result is:
> 
> 
> *Importing goods from the US to the UK*
> ...


You're changing the terms of the discussion. Your earlier post suggested Watch Gecko was simply keeping the VAT they collected as a sort of bonus. But as I said, and as far as I'm aware, they're not keeping the VAT they collect, but are instead paying it to HMRS.

I've recently, previously, and repeatedly stipulated that the WG site doesn't remove the UK VAT, even though I'm very aware that US residents are not required to pay VAT. Not sure how that wasn't abundantly clear already, or why it bears repeating back to me.

The WG site doesn't show a with-VAT and ex-VAT price, so, anyone knowledgeable enough to go there expecting to see two prices would likely notice the presence of only one. No one is trying to trick anyone into doing anything. Not sure how that's "shady".


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> This example might actually apply:
> 
> 
> Generally, if your client is a business customer, the place of supply will be where the client is based but if they are a non-business customer, the place of supply will be where you are based.
> ...


Brother, let me help you out.

You don't need to go looking for "proof" that US residents are not required to pay VAT. I've already said that. I'm 100% certain you are correct, as I've said exactly the same thing.

What you're missing, apparently, is that WG isn't keeping the VAT they collect on sales to US residents. They're paying it to the HMRS, as far as I'm aware, as I've been told by a former UK retailer that they are required to do so in that scenario.

Yes, if their prices DIDN'T include the VAT for US residents, that would be awesome. But, at least for now, they do. Don't buy from them if you can't live with that. I don't know what else to tell you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Maybe this will help...

If you haven't run an ecommerce website, you may think that it's easy or automatic to show two prices, one with tax, one without. It isn't, necessarily.

I know the previous version of the Watch Gecko site was custom-designed, not a template from an ecommerce platform like Shopify (like mine is). They couldn't get their old site to display two prices that way.

They're working on getting their just-launched new website to remove the VAT for ex-UK customers. They're not there yet.

Nothing "shady" is going on. They're not collecting the VAT when they don't need to, and just keeping it as bonus revenue. They're paying the tax they collect to the HMRS, as far as I know, because they're legally required to.

They can't simply "not charge tax" when they're required to do so in the UK. It'd be like a store in a US state simply deciding not to charge state sales tax, because not everyone who comes in is from that state. 

It doesn't work that way. You can't show your Delaware ID at the register in a PA store and have them not charge you PA's 6% sales tax.

I'm aware the situation isn't ideal, and US residents aren't happy about it. I didn't create this situation, and I can't fix it. Please stop brow-beating me about it.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

I'm over the tax discussion, so here's a watch. I have stopped wearing this watch gently, and the fact that it holds up so well makes me like it more every day. When I'm doing yard work, housework, or other stuff where I don't want to scuff up my Speedy, I rock the AVG. In spite of that, the thing still looks practically new and keeps great time.


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## JMSpivey (Jun 19, 2021)

docvail said:


> Beyond that, I doubt we'll make wide use of the thicker crystal or aluminum inserts on our other models, at least until our sales volume can justify having an "even more vintage" version alongside the standard versions.


Makes complete sense. Overall I’m more a fan of the dial & bezel colors choose for the project then the boxed crystal and cyclops.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

winstoda said:


> This example might actually apply:
> 
> 
> Generally, if your client is a business customer, the place of supply will be where the client is based but if they are a non-business customer, the place of supply will be where you are based.
> ...


I think thr main point is they don't have to charge the vat, they do and that's reason enough not to buy a watch from them if you live in the US. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Guys, it’s not Doc’s fault that the price in WG was put that way. Here in Europe, we would need to pay more than 1000€ to import them (or 816€ x 1.25), which is beyond my comfort price range. 860$ for these beauties is really a steal, I must say 😂


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

If you are serious about buying a watch and you have some quaint principles, contact the dealer. This works with all the distributors I have eventually bought NTH watches from, Doc broadcast this procedure for Intowatches, and eventually you will have a definite answer from WG.
Sometimes, implementing and maintaining a multi-VAT sub system into a web shop is too expensive and complicated, and it's just cheaper to answer the three requests per month personally.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

@Rhorya Would you mind posting some photos and your quick thoughts on the WG Amphion when it arrives? I am considering the Amphion and/or one of the Näckens, but cannot decide yet. I have the Squale 20 Atmos Classic Ceramic, so either it or the Amphion would have to go. I guess I'm kinda afraid the Amphion would win and I'd end up flipping another watch :/

I am usually a Näcken fan, but there's something about this Amphion that draws me to it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> Guys, it’s not Doc’s fault that the price in WG was put that way. Here in Europe, we would need to pay more than 1000€ to import them (or 816€ x 1.25), which is beyond my comfort price range. 860$ for these beauties is really a steal, I must say 😂


I may be wrong, but I believe Watch Gecko ships DDP, delivery duties paid. You shouldn't pay any more than the price listed on their site.









Delivery FAQs


We've been selling online for over a decade, and we have great relationships with our delivery partners, and we only use the best of the best. So be assured that your delivery is in good hands, but if there is an issue, please don't worry, we will handle it.




www.watchgecko.com







VH944 said:


> If you are serious about buying a watch and you have some quaint principles, contact the dealer. This works with all the distributors I have eventually bought NTH watches from, Doc broadcast this procedure for Intowatches, and eventually you will have a definite answer from WG.
> 
> Sometimes, implementing and maintaining a multi-VAT sub system into a web shop is too expensive and complicated, and it's just cheaper to answer the three requests per month personally.


I don't want to seem as if I'm trying to persuade US residents to feel good about paying UK VAT. I'm not.

You hit the nail on the head. It truly is a case of what can or cannot be done with their website. As yet, they haven't been able to figure out how to combine geo-locating of site visitors with removing UK VAT for those outside the UK.

I've tried to impress upon them that this would help them with US sales. They're focused on UK sales. They're trying to make it happen, but it's not their most pressing priority. There's an open question about whether sales to the US would be enough to warrant the possibly expensive website development costs required, I suppose.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Representing.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Duty Pre-Paid you say?

Maybe for the watch, those spring bars are gonna cost me!


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

winstoda said:


> Not sure the reason but a very lucrative policy I'd think. Can't imagine they're sending her majesty the VAT... The crown would never tax anyone without British representation, would they? /sarcasm


Until fairly recently, the UK allowed foreign visitors to pay retail price included VAT then claim back the VAT as they exited the country, normally at the Airports. However, they decided to stop this a couple of years ago, on the basis - presumably - that it was a tax giveaway that they didn't need to make. Perhaps that explains the stance of WG, but if so odd that Chris Ward do it differently.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Maybe this will help...
> 
> If you haven't run an ecommerce website, you may think that it's easy or automatic to show two prices, one with tax, one without. It isn't, necessarily.
> 
> ...


Just one minor point for completeness: it is HMRC, not HMRS: Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs


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## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> I may be wrong, but I believe Watch Gecko ships DDP, delivery duties paid. You shouldn't pay any more than the price listed on their site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...












maybe not… 
Well, it doesn’t matter. I set up an alert in WatchRecon already


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Monday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Duty Pre-Paid you say?
> 
> Maybe for the watch, those spring bars are gonna cost me!





Forever8895 said:


> maybe not…
> Well, it doesn’t matter. I set up an alert in WatchRecon already


Sorry for my confusion. I was aware WG shipped free, and that they shipped DDP with DHL. I was thinking they included the duties as part of the free shipping, but obviously not.


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

Forever8895 said:


> maybe not…
> Well, it doesn’t matter. I set up an alert in WatchRecon already


Lol I thought the same thing but then I also realized that the cost will be set into the resale price anyway. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

The prepaid duties can actually be seen as a positive I think once you understand it’s paid by you and not covered by them. I’ve played Russian roulette too many times as far as what DHL has actually charged me for duty over the years. I don’t hate the idea of being informed ahead of making a purchase.


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## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Sorry for my confusion. I was aware WG shipped free, and that they shipped DDP with DHL. I was thinking they included the duties as part of the free shipping, but obviously not.


No worries, it’s alright. I don’t have ~800 something to spend on watches right now anyway. Other life priorities get in the way. Maybe in another 2 months or so, which means they will probably be out of stock anyway


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

I see someone posted about who had the most NTH’s. I’ve had at least 14 that I can remember. I’m a serial flipper, I wear something for a few months and I move it to make the next purchase so while I don’t have NTH’s as we speak, I’m very close to pulling the trigger on one of the new WatchGecko editions. This is the list of what I remember owning and loved every one.

Azores Mint
Azores Curaçao 
Antilles Cointreau 
Nacken Blue Vintage
Nacken Blue
Nacken Renegade
Santa Fe
Oberon II
Nacken White
Devil Ray gray
Devil Ray II Blue
Nazario Red
Swiftsure Blue
Odin Blue


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

Hey Doc, I’m sorry if this has been asked and answered already but do you plan on using that box Crystal with the cyclops on subs (not exclusive to Watch Gecko) in the future?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

kpjimmy said:


> Mack Monday


Did you say Näck Monday?


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

After kicking off that brouhaha here’s a picture of the watch that is accompanying me on my Mexico trip. Old faithful…










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hendu615 said:


> Hey Doc, I’m sorry if this has been asked and answered already but do you plan on using that box Crystal with the cyclops on subs (not exclusive to Watch Gecko) in the future?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk











This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


Same. They didn't remove the vat when I bought the white DR. Sent from my SM-G781U using TapatalkWhy don't they? And why would someone order when you are paying more than you have too? Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk




www.watchuseek.com





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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Hendu615 said:


> I see someone posted about who had the most NTH’s. I’ve had at least 14 that I can remember. I’m a serial flipper, I wear something for a few months and I move it to make the next purchase so while I don’t have NTH’s as we speak, I’m very close to pulling the trigger on one of the new WatchGecko editions. This is the list of what I remember owning and loved every one.
> 
> Azores Mint
> Azores Curaçao
> ...


Pretty sure you're forgetting either a Nacken black or a Santa Cruz - I know this because you flipped one to me!


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

Peteagus said:


> Pretty sure you're forgetting either a Nacken black or a Santa Cruz - I know this because you flipped one to me!


 yeah that’s why I said at least! Should have kept track!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> The prepaid duties can actually be seen as a positive I think once you understand it’s paid by you and not covered by them. I’ve played Russian roulette too many times as far as what DHL has actually charged me for duty over the years. I don’t hate the idea of being informed ahead of making a purchase.


I would agree with this, if I understand the point being made correctly.

The one time I paid duties for a watch I bought overseas, I had no idea what to expect. I'd rather know before making the purchase. If the seller paying the duties for me saves any sort of brokerage fee or extra time / hassle for me, even better.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

So... are those new aluminum bezels goin' up on the website soon, or...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Asking for a friend, ahem..


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A few interesting used market listings I found today...

Insanely good price (50% of new) for a gently-used Thresher Blue No Date - 








FS: NTH Thresher Automatic Like New


Raising funds has me letting go of this great NTH automatic blue dial and blue bezel on a bracelet. Was part of a trade so letting go for only $375.00 shipped in CONUS . PayPal , sorry no trades




www.watchuseek.com





Azores Blue no date on Reddit, $400, seller says it's in great condition - 

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Watchexchange/comments/wu1k7s

Näcken Vintage Black, no-date. 1 of just 70 produced. Best I can tell from the image, it's one of the more recent releases, with the "titanium" color bezel insert. $450 seems like a good price, IMO - 
NTH Nacken Vintage Black No Date | eBay

DevilRay, Black, No Date - not sure what to make of this. The watch shown is mounted on a still-wrapped v.1 bracelet with expansion clasp, and the box shown is from a v.1, yet the specs listed are for the v.2 with Seiko movement. Looking at the photos, I can't be certain, but it does look like white lume, not the C5 mint green from the v.1. Seller's listing says the watch was never worn. If that's true, $450 makes sense if it's a v.2 with Seiko, less so if it's a v.1 with STP, and that bracelet, so...I dunno, caveat emptor, perhaps - 








NTH DevilRay Diver Watch | eBay


NTH DevilRay, Black, No Date. This watch is in Mint condition. Never worn. Still has plastic on the bracelet. It's pristine, no blemishes. This one is from the first DevilRay run back a few years ago.



 www.ebay.com


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

Order placed!!!! Had a really tough time deciding between this and the gray but I’m the end went with the classic black. Can’t wait to see it on the wrist!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

VH944 said:


> Asking for a friend, ahem..


100% asking for me. That blue aluminum insert is exactly what I've been looking for since the original blue Näcken was released.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

RotorRonin said:


> 100% asking for me. That blue aluminum insert is exactly what I've been looking for since the original blue Näcken was released.


Well, in my opinion you are asking the right question!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> 100% asking for me. That blue aluminum insert is exactly what I've been looking for since the original blue Näcken was released.


Not sure when. No need to rush to sell replacement inserts for models that literally just went on sale four days ago.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Not sure when. No need to rush to sell replacement inserts for models that literally just went on sale four days ago.












(actually, I'm all set - posting for a friend...)


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

100% would mod my modern blue with one of those inserts, lol.


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

I haven’t worn a watch in months, then I received a tempting email from watchgecko, since I’ve bought from them before. Santa Fe might be about to get a green brother…nice watches Chris!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Fire.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

JMSpivey said:


> Decisions. Would like to see one of these on the BoR bracelet. All four variants look pretty great, nice work.


JMSpivey, I totally agree about the BoR, my question is should I get the NTH BoR from Doc or will the WatchGecko one be good enough for my Anchor Grey Amphion (which I'm just about to order)?


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm on the hook for the _Grey_.... Taxes be Damned, but Oh well....

Better get 'em while they are there.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Woops.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Hendu615 said:


> Order placed!!!! Had a really tough time deciding between this and the gray but I’m the end went with the classic black. Can’t wait to see it on the wrist!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man, that's a nice looking R Submariner "homage". Wish it had a Selitta SW-200 movement, though. Chris... have you considered offering the SW-200 movement in your watches?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> Man, that's a nice looking R Submariner "homage". Wish it had a Selitta SW-200 movement, though. Chris... have you considered offering the SW-200 movement in your watches?


Why would I opt to use a more expensive yet objectively inferior movement?

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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Why would I opt to use a more expensive yet objectively inferior movement?
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I just asked you if you had considered it, didn't I. Apparently a sore subject here. I shall back away slowly and quietly.

My impression has been that the Selitta SW-200 is an excellent Swiss movement. My experience with them has been quite positive so far. Perhaps I am grossly mistaken in my impression.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

DesertArt said:


> I just asked you if you had considered it, didn't I. Apparently a sore subject here. I shall back away slowly and quietly.
> 
> My impression has been that the Selitta SW-200 is an excellent Swiss movement. My experience with them has been quite positive so far. Perhaps I am grossly mistaken in my impression.


You're not the first to ask, and you won't be the last. It's why the GMT with a Swiss Movement is something of a running joke. 

The Miyota 9xxx series _is_ objectively better. It doesn't have the Sellitas handwinding issues, it's almost 1mm thinner, has a few more hours of PR and it's cheaper. 

Despite its specs on paper(which shows only SW Elabore and Top being more accurate out of the box), my experience shows them to be as or more accurate than my sw200 equipped watches.









Miyota Caliber 9039 Watch Movement | Caliber Corner


Brand Miyota (Citizen) Caliber Number 9039 Movement Type Automatic, self-winding Lignes 11 1/2”’ Diameter 26mm Thickness 3.90mm Total Height 5.64mm Jewels 24 Vibrations Per Hour 28,800 bph Anti-Shock System Parashock Power Reserve 42+ hours Rotor Direction Uni-directional (clockwise) Hand...




calibercorner.com












Sellita Caliber SW200-1 Watch Movement | Caliber Corner


Manufacturer Sellita Caliber Number SW200-1, SW-200-1 Base Caliber SW200 Type Automatic Lignes 11 1/2”’ Diameter 25.6mm Height 4.6mm thick Jewels 26 Power Reserve 38 hours Lift Angle 50 degrees Vibrations Per Hour 28,800 bph, 4Hz Hacking? Yes Hand-Windable? Yes Quickset Date? Yes Rotor Style...




calibercorner.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> I just asked you if you had considered it, didn't I. Apparently a sore subject here. I shall back away slowly and quietly.
> 
> My impression has been that the Selitta SW-200 is an excellent Swiss movement. My experience with them has been quite positive so far. Perhaps I am grossly mistaken in my impression.


Don't assume. It's not a sore subject. Just a well-tread one.

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Miyota 9 is thinner, has a longer PR, is a more efficient auto-winder, is adjusted to more positions, has a MUCH lower defect rate, is less expensive to buy, and will cost less to replace than the SW would to service.

The SW is "Swiss".

Easy decision for me.


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Back on wrist after over a year. Gave it to my dad but he doesn't really wear a watch so I "borrowed it back".

Feels good. Probably more so because I just sold an omega 2254 and this takes its place quite nicely. Through it on a ginault bracelet for quick adjust and it feels perfect.









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

ryan850 said:


> Through it on a ginault bracelet


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Rhorya said:


>


Damn that's a tall a** crystal.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

What is that sticking up above the bezel? Is that to protect the bezel from getting scratched.  Sweet mother of mercy that is some wild stuff

Oh, and Congrats BTW!


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Mine just arrived.... 
This is the best pic you'll get of it until October as I've only been at work since Wednesday so it's 43 days till I can peel off that plastic.









Now I just need to get a good BoR


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Rhorya said:


>


That's a joke right??

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Rhorya said:


>


It looks like a true Rolex homage, I just think that Crystal is a bit much, outside of that it looks to fit the bill. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> That's a joke right??
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Watchgecko doesn't highlight the crystal that well. It's a bit crazy looking. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

The crystal is amazing! Hope to see the Crystal/cyclops on more models. I’ll eventually own all four of these!


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## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Rhorya said:


>


That top hat is perfection. 🚀


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

This might be a bit of a dumb question, so I'll just power through.. 


Does the actual warranty card actually matter, for example is there anything saved on it? Is it tied to the watch? Asking because I am about to sell one and was wondering. I haven't touched them since I put those boxes away.


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## Watch That Sweep (Apr 23, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Watchgecko doesn't highlight the crystal that well. It's a bit crazy looking.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


If you look at the Tudor and Rolex subs these are based on though, they do have really tall crystals, so it's accurate in that sense. Granted, I get that it won't be everyone's cup of tea!


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

Can’t get over great the Crystal looks. Amazing job Chris, the magnification and font of the date wheel also came out great and I can tell a lot of thought was out into them. Is the date wheel white or silver?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> That's a joke right??
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> This might be a bit of a dumb question, so I'll just power through..
> 
> 
> Does the actual warranty card actually matter, for example is there anything saved on it? Is it tied to the watch? Asking because I am about to sell one and was wondering. I haven't touched them since I put those boxes away.


No such thing as dumb questions, only dumb people.

The actual warranty card isn't actually a warranty card. It's just a thank-you card with instructions to contact the seller if there's any problem with the watch on delivery.

Does it matter for the sake of a sale? To me, it wouldn't, but to the typical watch geek...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think this worked out well, if you're into this sort of thing...









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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks for the answer, Doc


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Thanks for the answer, Doc


Sho' 'nuff.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

I love that Rolex Submariner look, though many here totally disapprove of such a thing. I'm ok with it. I'd never spend the money on the Rolex. Better places to put money to use. But, I'd have to have a sleek, flat crystal and no cyclops for it to earn my money. The height of that crystal does put me off.

I would imagine that two of the most popular designs from NTH are, quite possibly, the Barracuda (T Black Bay) and Amphion (R Submariner)? It was the Black Bay design that brought me to consider NTH. Those two are just such great, classic designs. Timeless.


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

On the VAT subject...

...the thing to remember is that UK HMRC (Her Majesties Revenue and Customs) don't even understand their own rules so what chance has a seller of watches...

Example

I'm a pipe smoker and typically buy new pipes from SmokingPipes.com (US) or SmokingPipes.eu (er, in the EU). I used .com for shipping to Aus when I lived there or to Brazil (where I now live) until Brazil decided that importing pipes was no longer permitted.

So I now buy my pipes from .eu and have them shipped to my brother in the UK.

HMRC require smokingpipes.eu to collect the UK VAT on the sale (even though they are based in Dublin) and remit it to HMRC. This they do this in full compliance with UK regulations; when it arrives in the UK, my new pipe then gets dinged for UK VAT on arrival because HMRC are so disorganised they can't identify that smokingpipes.eu are registered for and collecting the UK VAT. So my brother then photographs the VAT demand and I email it to smokingpipes.eu who refund the VAT they've collected and I pay the VAT directly to UK HMRC. Barking mad.

Back to Watch Gecko; I ordered from them when I live in Australia and they collected Aussie GST (10%) on the purchase and not the UK VAT (20%); so most likely they are collecting whatever the US authorities are telling they should - hence duties paid. (Unfortunately Watch Gecko won't ship to South America...  ).


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> I like that Rolex knock-off look (though many here totally disapprove of copied designs), but I'd have to have a sleek flat crystal and no cyclops for it to earn my money.


Think I liked it better when you were putting "homage" in quotes.

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Think I liked it better when you were putting "homage" in quotes.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


 #NoFilter


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Think I liked it better when you were putting "homage" in quotes.


Well yesl... "homage" refers to the concept with kid gloves. All in all, most of the terms people apply to such things are generally pretty accurate. "Copies", "Knock-offs", "homages", "derivative", etc. Different ways of saying generally the same thing. Although I'd say that a "homage" needs to differ significantly, in plainly obvious ways from the original, with only slight nods to the original. If casual glances of a watch look strikingly like the original, I'd say it's gone beyond "homage".

The truth is that countless watch designs these days are quite derivative, many with only subtle little changes from the "original" that are not generally much noticeable by most people.

Same thing goes on with art, music, all manner of products Probably worse with watches than in art and music, though.

But when so many people love the designs of the submariner and the black bay, but are not willing to pay such stupid prices to obtain a nice quality watch (paying for the brand name, largely)... other brands will always step up to satisfy those buyers who enjoy the look but won't bite the outrageous pricing. Rolex still sells all they want to sell and so does Tudor. Big whoop. No animals are harmed in the production of these significantly similar watches. All is good.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Do all of the Amphions have those tall crystals? Do any variations come with a flat (or subtle dome) sapphire crystal? It's a great looking watch, otherwise, to my eyes. In studying competing micro-brand watches, I think it is more sensibly priced around $595, personally, but the asking price is not outrageous. And Chris has plainly stated that he intentionally set his prices higher than many competitors, because he wanted to earn enough to comfortably support his chosen manner of life. Nothing wrong with that and he's been quite honest about that and the fact that they are made in China. Very transparent, though many other micro-brand owners aren't willing to admit the same.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

TheBearded said:


> View attachment 16857086


Trying my best to amuse you, bearded one... don't take yourself too seriously! 🤣

Have fun... that's all that watches are - no right, no wrong, just FUN. And far from an important part of life.

Don Draper... awesome.


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> On the VAT subject...
> 
> Back to Watch Gecko; I ordered from them when I live in Australia and they collected Aussie GST (10%) on the purchase and not the UK VAT (20%); so most likely they are collecting whatever the US authorities are telling they should - hence duties paid. (Unfortunately Watch Gecko won't ship to South America...  ).


I think we’ve moved past the VAT talk but have to mention you’re incorrect on the US assumption. While I assume that they do (and should) collect state sales tax from residents of certain US states (places their sales meet a certain threshold), they also collect the UK VAT on orders shipped to the United States. This is certainly not required by the US authorities.


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One might get the feeling I was being goaded into a reaction. Good thing I have thick skin. 

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

No, Chris. It was not my intent to provoke you. And, I'm sorry if I did. 😣 Just speaking my mind a bit more freely than perhaps I might have, I guess.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I understand that the top hat crystal is a solution to mitigate thick movements and tall hand stacks into thin cases; just the thought that this is not necessary lets these watches slide down quite a couple of lines on my shopping list. Then again, the colors are rather tasteful, and since I have this crystal press here... 
Cheers from Europe and Schengen area but not European Union - tax that!


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Public service observation: Not everyone will like every watch. But someone will like every watch. And eventually that watch will come along. And that's why some manufacturers manage to stay in business MUCH longer than others.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> But someone will like every watch.


@yankeexpress


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

docvail said:


> One might get the feeling I was being goaded into a reaction. Good thing I have thick skin.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...













Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Artking3 (Mar 24, 2018)

docvail said:


> We're making a project watch for some guys on a different forum, and they wanted the same crystal, without the cyclops. I'm sure they'll be posting pics once we deliver them.
> 
> Beyond that, I doubt we'll make wide use of the thicker crystal or aluminum inserts on our other models, at least until our sales volume can justify having an "even more vintage" version alongside the standard versions.
> 
> NTH has been relentlessly focused on ergonomics and ruggedness. I think adopting the thicker crystal and aluminum bezel would run counter to the brand's grain.


Can you reveal which forum it is? Or did you have to sign a NDA?


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## Artking3 (Mar 24, 2018)

docvail said:


> In an effort to shorten the delivery timeline and save on shipping costs, we had all the WG Subs shipped directly to WG from our vendor.
> 
> As such, I haven't even seen one of them in person yet. But that blue is seriously calling to me. I may have to break my rules about date windows, where they're located, magnifiers, and aluminum inserts.
> 
> Because this, is sexy AF...


I liked this so much, I put down money for it. And for the grey.

Considering I’ve been off the forums for a while, I feel lucky to jump on while the watches were just released and available.


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## Artking3 (Mar 24, 2018)

...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Popping in for a bit...

On the note of really tall "top hat" crystals... there's really two kinds of so-called top hat crystals (ok I'm sure there are more than two kinds depending how you split it, but bear with me here): a hollow-head crystal and a full-head crystal.

A full-head top hat crystal is basically just a really chunky, thick slab of sapphire, with one rounded edge. The bottom of these crystals is totally flat. These are (or were) often sold for modding. I used one such on a seiko turtle top-hat mod. The thing is... that solid chunk of thick sapphire made the watch very top-heavy. Much moreso than a regular flat or regular domed crystal did.

The other kind, a hollow-head crystal, is as high as the first version, but it has a scooped-out underside. The crystal is overall much thinner, the edges just curve down around the side. This is what lets you put really thin midcases on thick movements with tall hand stacks. These crystals are much less top-heavy (in comparison to the fat ones), and afaik they cost more to make, since you have to carve out the underside. Back in the day they weren't even available for modding; iirc when the Oris 65 first came out, people were impressed about the high-dome sapphire crystal with scooped underside. Afaik they have become more common nowadays.

ANYWAY.
The point is... on ergonomics and wearability... a scooped-out top hat crystal won't harm the ergonomics that much. The balance will be a bit different, but not horribly so; and if the edge is bevelled well-enough, most people with BDSM wall-street-shirtsleeves will still be able to wear the watch. I bet the watch will be more expensive to make. If, however, the crystal is a fat slab top hat, then you _will_ feel it on your wrist. It might be a dealbreaker for some folks once they start wearing it - it's not negligible.

P.S. saw the WG pics of those top-hat subs. Mmmm. Purdy. WG is def leaning heavily into the vintage look (same can be seen with their recent devilray editions), but hey, if it sells, it sells. It certainly looks great.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Why would I opt to use a more expensive yet objectively inferior movement?


"muh swiss"


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> The Miyota 9 is thinner, has a longer PR, is a more efficient auto-winder, is adjusted to more positions, has a MUCH lower defect rate, is less expensive to buy, and will cost less to replace than the SW would to service.
> 
> The SW is "Swiss".
> 
> Easy decision for me.


+ the miyota 9015 is probably the best movement in terms of hand-winding feel. It just feels the least gritty/grainy. Seiko's NH35 (and its ilk) are also really good, easy handwinders. Personally I rate those two movements the highest for simple, reliable, use-for-anything watches.

ETA 2824-2 (and its like) are just... crunchy. I've had plenty of watches with that movement, low-end and mid-end, basic grade and top grade (and beyond) of that movement, all of them feel gritty and crunchy to hand wind. TBH it was always a sore point for me. SW200 is not AS bad, but it still is a gritty mov't. If a watch has a slippery or undersized crown, then this becomes an actual problem, as the movement is putting too much resistance and winding becomes arduous.

On side-note, the PT5000 movement - apparently a drop-in alternative to SW200 - is again very different in hand-winding feel. Not gritty, but also not smooth; it's more clicky - as if you could feel the ratchet of the mainspring all the way through to the crown. Personally, not a fan of that at all.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

True story:

Wearing this today and got a "is this an Explorer?" earlier this morning. 😅


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> "muh swiss"


Fine adjustment screw makes the 2824 much easier to regulate than the 9015.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Artking3 said:


> Can you reveal which forum it is? Or did you have to sign a NDA?


Details in this thread - How does one get a "Brolex"?

EDIT/PS - the project watch is sold out, unless and until the guys in that group want us to make more available.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Fine adjustment screw makes the 2824 much easier to regulate than the 9015.


That is true. The regulation adjuster in the 9 series is more finicky. 

Unless I'm imagining it, I think Lajoux Perret went with a more standard, Swiss-style on the G100 (a gussied-up and Swissified Miyota 9), which I think is a tacit admission by Citizen that the regulator is one of the few legit complaints about that movement.


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

NTH Swiftsure to start the week.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Monday on an uncleseiko president bracelet. It's the skx013 bracelet if anyone is wondering.









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Indeed.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

How about Todaro Tuesday?









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> How about Todaro Tuesday?
> View attachment 16864690
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Renegade









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

OK I'll be that guy...

They hommaged you hommaged them  ...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Slant said:


> OK I'll be that guy...
> 
> They hommaged you hommaged them  ...


But they were too lazy to scrape off the crown guards though


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Slant said:


> OK I'll be that guy...
> 
> They hommaged you hommaged them  ...



I think you meant the Pelagos 39 that Tudor announced today, but you attached a pic of the older Pelagos. Here's the 39:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Okay...truth...

Rolex / Tudor could make a bazillion-gazillion dollars if they re-produced the MilSubs and MN Snowflake Subs from the late '60's-early '70's, and sold them at anything near reasonable prices. 

Nothing fancy. Just basic 316L cases on 3-link oyster bracelets with basic clasps, 200-300m WR, sapphire crystals, steel bezels, and acceptable performance. Doesn't need to be the latest and greatest movement they have to offer. They could jam any off-the-shelf Soprod or ETA or fill-in-some-Swiss-name movement into them. 

They could sell them for $1k-$2k, and they'd sell out, quickly, however many they made. No real changes to the designs, just increase the specs slightly and shave a lot of the thickness.

My entire business is built around doing what they absolutely refuse to do. Let the haters hate. 

You're welcome.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> I think you meant the Pelagos 39 that got introduced today, but you attached a pic of the older Pelagos. Here's the 39:
> 
> View attachment 16865388


#NeedsMoreDialText


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> #NeedsMoreDialText


needs a hashtag on the dial.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Coriolanus said:


> I think you meant the Pelagos 39 that got introduced today, but you attached a pic of the older Pelagos. Here's the 39:
> 
> View attachment 16865388


Erhmmmm...It's less funny when I have to explain...

My first pic IS the new Pelagos 39. Hence "they" i.e. Tudor hommaged my second pic, which is the Nacken V1, which NTH hommaged the third pic, the V1 Pelagos.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Erhmmmm...It's less funny when I have to explain...
> 
> My first pic IS the new Pelagos 39. Hence "they" i.e. Tudor hommaged my second pic, which is the Nacken V1, which NTH hommaged the third pic, the V1 Pelagos.


I prefer to think of it as a hybrid homage of the MN Snowflake Subs and the Pelagos, but that's just one dude's opinion.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Slant said:


> Erhmmmm...It's less funny when I have to explain...
> 
> My first pic IS the new Pelagos 39. Hence "they" i.e. Tudor hommaged my second pic, which is the Nacken V1, which NTH hommaged the third pic, the V1 Pelagos.


Sorry, I only see the "second" and "third" pics in your post.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> #NeedsMoreDialText


Two lines of text is minimum flair.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Okay...truth...
> 
> Rolex / Tudor could make a bazillion-gazillion dollars if they re-produced the MilSubs and MN Snowflake Subs from the late '60's-early '70's, and sold them at anything near reasonable prices.
> 
> ...


You're right. And you are the beneficiary (in sales) by creating what they won't do. The black Nacken is very nice and much more affordable than the Pelagos. I would like to see crown guards on the Nacken, though. May be someday?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Two lines of text is minimum flair.
> View attachment 16865515


I'm waiting for Rolex to release a model with the entire dial covered in text. They should call it "the Novella", and have the last line read "continued on reverse side..."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> You're right. And you are the beneficiary (in sales) by creating what they won't do. The black Nacken is very nice and much more affordable than the Pelagos. I would like to see crown guards on the Nacken, though. May be someday?


Already been there, and done that. Released the v.2 Modern Black in July of 2021.








The last of them just sold almost exactly 1 month ago, so...they were available for a full year.

Where were you?

We might make more next year. Or we might not. Time will tell.

Edit - looks like the last one was still available as of the first of this month...









This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


. Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk




www.watchuseek.com





As of June 6, we were down to the last 2.









This is the all-new, most current, official NTH thread


Dan tried bending one of the bad rings more, to match the good rings, and put more tension in it. He got the bends to match, but the bezel still popped off the case too easily. I've done that a couple of times when changing Vostok bezels; end result is usually just refit the ring that came off...




www.watchuseek.com





PS - we sent out an email newsletter on July 11th, in which we mentioned being down to the last 2 pieces.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of stuff someone will ask me about a month after the last one sold...

There are only 5 pieces of the DevilRay Turquoise left in the world, 2 no-dates and 3 with-dates. 1 no-date in Poland. The rest are in Korea or New Zealand.

Just 2 left of the DevilRay Orange with date, both in Korea.

Just 3 left of the Antilles Hpnotiq. 2 of those are at Long Island Watch.

Just 5 left of the Azores Absinthe, 2 no-dates, and 3-with-dates. They're spread out, but just 1 of each left in the US (no-date at Long Island Watch, with-date at the NTH site).

Just 2 Barracuda Vintage Black with-dates left in the world. 1 at Long Island Watch, 1 at Serious in the EU.

Only 8 Barracuda no-dates left, with only 3 in the US (all on the NTH site).

The Näcken Modern Blue with-date is now sold out. There are just 5 no-dates left in the world - 2 at Island Watch, 1 at Watch Gauge, 1 at Serious, and 1 at Five:45 in New Zealand.

Looks like Watch Gecko has sold through about half of their new Subs since they went on sale, so...going fast, it seems.

Just 5 left of the Swiftsure, White, no-date. Four in the US, 1 in the EU.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Something, something...limited production, only available for a limited time, get what you want before it's gone...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone interested in a 1 of only 10 produced DLC v.1 Barracuda Vintage Black with-date? Looks to be in good condition. Comes with extra Milanese bracelet (which I'd just chuck in the trash, but maybe you like that sort of thing).

Price seems fair, IMO:









NTH BARRACUDA BLACK DATE DLC | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH BARRACUDA BLACK DATE DLC at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Never got a shot of the Swifty today, so here's one before it gets put to sleep.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Never got a shot of the Swifty today, so here's one before it gets put to sleep.
> View attachment 16865855


Got a lot of peeps in here who love their pets. Maybe you could come up with a better phrasing?

Try this:

"Here's one last look before I lock it in a dark box until I think it deserves to come out and see daylight again."

Much less eyebrow-raising, methinks.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Already been there, and done that. Released the v.2 Modern Black in July of 2021.
> View attachment 16865660
> 
> The last of them just sold almost exactly 1 month ago, so...they were available for a full year.
> ...


Yes, I just missed that. These things happen when we're busy with life. 

Was it a strong enough seller to do another run of? I'd definitely be a player for that! Do you ever put out feelers to this thread asking who might be interested in another run of something? Or do you just go by gut sense based on how well the previous incarnation sold?


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

DesertArt said:


> Yes, I just missed that. These things happen when we're busy with life.
> 
> Was it a strong enough seller to do another run of? I'd definitely be a player for that! Do you ever put out feelers to this thread asking who might be interested in another run of something? Or do you just go by gut sense based on how well the previous incarnation sold?


Doc said above it might come back and might not. I've never seen Doc ask us what what should come back or not. He doesn't have to. He has all the historical sales records, knows the MOQ for individual parts, knows what sells, and what makes money. That means he doesn't have to use his gut either. The best you can do is hope for the best, that others mention it enough to stick in Doc's mind, and it makes financial sense to do so.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Doc said above it might come back and might not. I've never seen Doc ask us what what should come back or not. He doesn't have to. He has all the historical sales records, knows the MOQ for individual parts, knows what sells, and what makes money. That means he doesn't have to use his gut either. The best you can do is hope for the best, that others mention it enough to stick in Doc's mind, and it makes financial sense to do so.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> Yes, I just missed that. These things happen when we're busy with life.


Email analytics shows you opened that July 11 email five times in two days, and clicked on one of the links in it.



DesertArt said:


> Was it a strong enough seller to do another run of? I'd definitely be a player for that! Do you ever put out feelers to this thread asking who might be interested in another run of something? Or do you just go by gut sense based on how well the previous incarnation sold?


The problem with making more of anything is that it unavoidably creates the impression that we'll just keep making more, forever, until whenever you decide to get one, when (or if) you get around to it, maybe, eventually.

That doesn't work for me. At. All.

The more we make of something, and the more frequently, the less urgency anyone feels to actually buy one, and the slower the sales tend to be as a result. The slower the sales, the less likely we are to keep making more, more frequently. Over-production inevitably leads to discontinuation.

Thus, in a counter-intuitive way, we produce less of everything so we can sell more of everything. Yes, it's a strange business, but no one ever bothered to tell me how much they loved the insurance I sold them, so there's that.

Will we make more? Maybe. Maybe not. When? I don't know. Maybe next year. Maybe the year after. Maybe never.

Am I going to take a survey to gauge interest? Hell no. Been there. Done that. Don't trust survey results. If we did everything according to surveys, every dinner would be pizza.

The more we've made of a design, the less remaining demand I'd expect there to be. The production numbers for the Näcken Modern Black are already above the average production number for all Subs versions.

In the meantime, our next release will see the return of 3 designs we haven't produced in at least 2-3 years - the Amphion Vintage Gilt, the Näcken Vintage White, and the Scorp_è_ne.

(May I recommend everyone pay attention and get one before we sell out of them, as this could be the last time we'll make any of them, ever again?)

I imagine there's more pent-up demand for those three models that no one's seen in 2-3 years than there is for a model that just took a year to sell out of what we produced with the last release. Why would I make more of the Modern Black, right away?

(If you think 12 months of availability isn't long enough, just imagine how much less time you'd have if I under-priced them.)

May I also suggest that when I go way, WAY, WAAAAYYYYYYY out of my way to make it clear that we're low on inventory for certain designs, people take me at my word, and not assume that when those last few pieces sell, we'll make more anytime soon?

Also, not for nothing - if you think the bezel on your v.2 Barracuda was too stiff, the bezels on all of the above are going to feel the same. Maybe this whole discussion is moot.

Just sayin'...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> It was just because I was in bright sulight and the angle was not great. Ordinarily the hands are really legible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Heresy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

Really interesting stuff on sales. I guess that’s why so many microbrands are going the limited release route.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Caltex88 said:


> Really interesting stuff on sales. I guess that’s why so many microbrands are going the limited release route.


I can't speak for what many other micros are doing, beyond saying I think many over-use "limited" as a marketing gimmick when the truth is just the opposite. I've seen microbrands talking about making a "limited edition" of 500 pieces. It's a total farce. 500 pieces is a case factory's typical MOQ. There's nothing "limited" in that scenario.

I think within the last 4-5 years, many micros have started doingn what I've been doing - taking our vendors' MOQ's, and whacking them up into smaller numbers of more SKUs, so we can offer more product varieties. Instead of making 125 pieces each of 4 dial designs, and releasing all 500 at once, we'll make 25-50 pieces each of 10-20 designs, and release 100 at a time, over a longer timeline.

Even 25-50 pieces, to me, isn't all that "limited" for a micro, unless the numbers are firmly capped at that. Even at that, for a lot of micros, it can be hard to sell 25-50 pieces each of 10-20 different designs, if they're not under-pricing them. That may be all the demand there is for a design, so "limited" is more of a marketing term than an indication of true "scarcity".

For me, when we're averaging 50 pieces per SKU before we have to think about whether or not we want to make more, a truly "limited" (read: "small") production number would be 5-10 pieces, like what we did with the DLC versions of the 40mm Subs and the 2K1's. A "limited edition" might be 25 or 50 pieces, but with the assurance we won't ever make more. We made 25 of the original Nazario. That's all there will ever be.

I think the main thrust is for micros to avoid having to lock in big production numbers on a small handful of SKUs, and not take delivery of 500 pieces of inventory if it's going to take 6-12 months or more to sell through it all. If the business can handle the financial strain of spreading that production over a longer time frame, it can make more sense to diversify the product mix and adopt a production mode that more closely resembles "just in time" manufacturing.

Earlier this year, I ordered 1000 more of the 40mm v.2 Subs cases. We took delivery of 200 for the last release, which was just 8-10 SKUs. We've got 300 coming for the upcoming release, which will be 18 to 20 SKUs. Once the dust settles a little, I'll start to think about what models we want to make for the next release, whenever that will be.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> For me, when we're averaging 50 pieces per SKU before we have to think about whether or not we want to make more, a truly "limited" (read: "small") production number would be 5-10 pieces, like what we did with the DLC versions of the 40mm Subs and the 2K1's. A "limited edition" might be 25 or 50 pieces, but with the assurance we won't ever make more. We made 25 of the original Nazario. That's all there will ever be.


I've always considered "limited release" to mean... don't matter how many we produce, 10, 50 or 1000... once they're done... That's it. No more made...period.

What I do frequently see is reissues of previously "limited releases" and that then ain't limited release in my books. 

I guess it comes down to language, meaning and interpretation. 

We've just copped 250k's worth of goods that weren't what we thought we'd ordered because our interpretation of the words "escape set" was different to the vendors...

It all comes down to interpretation. 

And now we wheel over a couple of barrow loads of cash to our lawyers to sort this  out

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> Email analytics shows you opened that July 11 email five times in two days, and clicked on one of the links in it.


yeah but then my dog ate the email


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

IIRC, the Seiko Alpinist had a limited edition in 2021 of... 2,021 pieces. Even if your NTH has been reissued already twice, don't be upset: you are still in an exclusive circle.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Email analytics shows you opened that July 11 email five times in two days, and clicked on one of the links in it....
> 
> ...not for nothing - if you think the bezel on your v.2 Barracuda was too stiff, the bezels on all of the above are going to feel the same. Maybe this whole discussion is moot.
> 
> Just sayin'...


OK... while we're "just sayin'" let me be honest with you.

I ask if there might be more Black Nackens and you choose to brow beat a customer, again. No, your "analytics" are wrong - I did not open your July 11 email 5 times in two days. Nice going, Veil! Treat your customers in a condescending manner! People see that, you know. May be you should spend more time making your Chinese producer produce decent functioning bezels, rather than blabber on here, incessantly and endlessly, about how great you think you are. It's the attitude, man.

Yeah... that bezel was poorly functioning for anyone with serious intentions of actually USING their bezel function. My initial thought on receiving the watch was that the bezel was actually a non-moveable bezel. After much effort, I got it to turn, but it didn't improve much. Trying to use the bezel was a PITA.

I've got numerous dive watches from several other brands and all of those brands found a way to offer bezels which function quite well. In your case, you try to make it seem like your customer is at fault for your poorly functioning bezel.

I have to ask: Why would you accept such poor quality bezel action from your suppliers... and _then,_ brow beat your customer when they report discontentment with how the watch functions? Your lightly veiled, condescending, and arrogant attitude pissed me off. And others in this thread reacted the same way to that (they contacted me by PM). That's why that Barracuda sits in your "Nearly New" sales bin right now. Bad taste left in my mouth from the experience with you.

With a seemingly endless, veritable plethora of very good watches available these days, it's easy to move on to other options that don't come with that attitude.

Will you accept such exceptionally stiff bezel action in future orders from your Chinese vendor? Rhetorical question.

Like you, I'm "Just sayin'"


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## Hendu615 (Nov 3, 2013)

docvail said:


> Okay...truth...
> 
> Rolex / Tudor could make a bazillion-gazillion dollars if they re-produced the MilSubs and MN Snowflake Subs from the late '60's-early '70's, and sold them at anything near reasonable prices.
> 
> ...













Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

The Santa Fe was limited. What, 20 full-up watches and another two or three assembled with remaining parts. Limited in production and impossible to find in the second-hand market. It's not exactly a mainstream design and wasn't limited just to be limited and special or command an extraordinary price.


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Howdy Folks, 

I hope You are all having a Good Day.  I am wearing one "Watch Gecko Special Grey" .....

 ....while I wait for another. 











The WG Amphion Vintage Grey took a 'travel break' in Tennessee for a whole day because of 'document issues'...?


Meanwhile, the shipment is at least two days overdue, and the small freight plane from Anchorage just missed a two-and-a-half day Good Weather window....  So here we are....Waiting.... 










Desk-Diving anyone? Anyone? 

Enjoy Your Time. _(It Changes....)_


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> I've always considered "limited release" to mean... don't matter how many we produce, 10, 50 or 1000... once they're done... That's it. No more made...period.
> 
> What I do frequently see is reissues of previously "limited releases" and that then ain't limited release in my books.
> 
> ...


I think this perfectly demonstrates why I hesitate to describe anything as "limited", unless I'm being VERY specific with the language. I think people see "limited" and assume "limited _EDITION_" far too often.

Just my view of things:

"Limited *PRODUCTION*" - doesn't mean a whole lot, inasmuch as every manufactured product has a production volume that is ultimately finite, and thus, "limited" to whatever the ultimate production number ends up being. Technically, a 50,000 piece production could be considered "limited".

When I say above that the production numbers are ultimately finite, what I mean is that even if Rolex continues to make the Submariner, the form that product takes is subject to change over time. Only the name remains the same. You can't walk into a Rolex AD and buy a brand new, just-produced 4- or 5-digit Submariner. You can only buy a current or recent version of the model which bears that name, just like I can't find a new, just-produced 1963 Corvette Stingray at any Chevy dealership in the world.

When I say what we do is "limited production", I try to explain that what I mean by that is that whatever we make, the assembly numbers will be limited for each release, and no matter how many releases there may be, the total production numbers will likely remain fairly *small*, in context. 

At the very least, I try to get folks to understand that like almost every brand on the planet, I outsource production, and thus I have to ask them to make some (limited / finite) number in advance for each production order, whereas I think some folks imagine we just create an open-ended order, whereby our vendors continue producing everything until we tell them to stop. 

I believe folks imagine this "indefinite" production based on the number of complaints I've read from peeps whinging about how such-and-such brand stopped producing the X model. They didn't "stop". They simply made some, those have since sold, and the brand hasn't yet decided to make more.

A typical 300-piece release might be 25 pieces each of 6 SKUs. That might be 3 dial colors, each offered with or without a date. There's your 6 SKUs. For some models, we might break that down farther, by assembling 20% with a different bracelet, or with a DLC case. So instead of 25 per SKU, it'll be 20 + 5 (20 on oyster, 5 on BOR, or 20 stainless, 5 DLC).

The point I'm trying to make is that there are only 25 pieces being assembled for each of those. Whether or not we'll ever make more is an open question. Further, if we do make more, it may not be a lot more.

Our MOQ on dials is 50 pieces, so if we assembled 25 of each, we have 25 of those dials left. We may use some of them, or all of them, but at that point, if we've made 50 of each, which would be 100 combined of the with-date and no-date, we very likely will NOT be making more, or at least, we won't be making more any time soon.

With the 40mm Subs, the average is around 100 pieces total (date + no-date). The way things have typically gone, that's probably "enough", and we likely won't make more, ever. But if we do, it'll likely be at least a year or two before we re-release that design, unless the sales pace (read: the popularity) of a design is enough to warrant more frequent production and/or increasing the production numbers, as we've done with some designs.

"Limited *EDITION*" - ought to mean that the manufacturer is very clear up front about how many will be made, ever, and beyond that, no more will be made. It might be 5 pieces, or 50, or 500. Doesn't matter, so long as everyone who buys one knows their piece is 1 of X produced. If the manufacturer decides to make more, I view that as bad faith, if not false advertising.

Further, I think the production numbers for anything billed as a "Limited Edition" ought to be in some way proportional to the brand's past sales volume. A startup micro has no business promoting a "500 piece limited edition" if they have no demonstrated sales history, or no reason to think the demand will be much more than that. If a brand sells 500 or 1000 watches a year, then a "Limited Edition" of 5 to 50 pieces seems more in keeping with the true scale of their business.

"Limited *RELEASE*" - means almost anything, or nothing. The Watch Gecko DevilRays and Subs were all assembled 25 pieces at a time, without any express commitment to make more, nor was there any commitment to not make more. It's just 25 pieces per SKU, now, with a "wait-and-see" posture for the future. The salient point is that only 25 were assembled, so there will likely come a day when someone wants one but can't get one, unless and until we decide to assemble more of them.

When we make something for exclusive sale by a single retailer, I try to get them to refer to it as a store-specific "Exclusive", rather than labeling it "Limited" in some way. While both are accurate, at least technically, the former seems less likely to be misunderstood than the latter. At all costs, I implore them not to label those designs as "Limited Editions", unless we've previously agreed that however many we've made will be the final figure.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> The Santa Fe was limited. What, 20 full-up watches and another two or three assembled with remaining parts. Limited in production and impossible to find in the second-hand market. It's not exactly a mainstream design and wasn't limited just to be limited and special or command an extraordinary price.


Indeed. According to my records, we seem to have made 27 of the Santa Fe, total, though I'm not 100% certain the number isn't slightly lower. 

We only made 20 of the Tiburon, 20 of the Zwaardvis, and only 10 of the Amphion Vintage Blue. It wasn't that I was trying to create an absurd buying frenzy. Just the opposite, I expected we'd have a hard enough time selling them all, even with the low numbers, because I felt their appeal was more niche.

If I made any of those today, for the first time, I might be able to rationalize 25 or 50 pieces. But based on past results, I don't plan to order another 25 or 50 now, having had the hard time I did selling what we made back when.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

A buddy in the antiquarian book trade scoffed when we announced a limited edition run of one title at 2000 books.

This was a true limited edition, as in we would never reprint in hardcover, let alone to the same specs, but the issue was the quantity, where "limited edition" in our nook of the book trade is usually <1k, and very often south of 100.

Like when Seiko releases a limited edition in the thousands, where that might be more than the total annual production, all models inclusive, of regular production microbrand runs.


----------



## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

I get it, but ****ing semantics...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> OK... while we're "just sayin'" let me be honest with you.
> 
> I ask if there might be more Black Nackens and you choose to brow beat a customer, again. No, your "analytics" are wrong - I did not open your July 11 email 5 times in two days. Nice going, Veil! Treat your customers in a condescending manner! People see that, you know. May be you should spend more time making your Chinese producer produce decent functioning bezels, rather than blabber on here, incessantly and endlessly, about how great you think you are. It's the attitude, man.
> 
> ...


As dispassionate as I can be...

1. Recall our recent exchange, here in this thread, about the stiffness of your Barracuda's bezel. Recall another forum member assured you the bezels start out stiff, but soften up with use. Recall my further attempts to assuage your concerns.

Recall that notwithstanding my doubts that there was anything wrong with your watch, I agreed to let you return it for inspection, and if needed, repair. Recall that I further agreed to your demand that I should offer to buy it back from you, sight as yet unseen, if we found nothing wrong.

Recall that when we found nothing wrong, I did indeed offer to buy it back. But within our private exchange on that topic, I showed you the professional courtesy of suggesting you could likely sell it for more privately.

And when you asked about crediting the re-purchase amount against the purchase of another v.2 Sub, such as the Mack, recall I explained that wouldn't make sense, since the next v.2 Sub you got would have bezel action much the same as the one you found to be sub-standard, but that I'd be happy to credit it against any other model of your choosing.

Recalling all that - you may understand why I was surprised you'd ask about a v.2 Nacken Modern Black. I wasn't brow-beating you. I was trying to make clear to you, for the second time, that if you were dissatisfied with your Barracuda, you'd likely be dissatisfied with any other v.2 Sub.

It seems unlikely to me that, mere days after selling your Barracuda back to me, you'd have forgotten about it, or the reason why.

Why ask me about a watch you most likely wouldn't buy, even if it was available? The point of discussing it, was, as I said, likely moot.

2. This is a screenshot of your activity on our 11 July email. You'll see 5 unique time-stamps for the opening of that message, by you, and the link you clicked:









I wouldn't have mentioned it, nor even bothered to look at it, had you not said you missed it because you were too busy. Ordinarily, someone saying they overlooked a message wouldn't have meant anything to me, and I wouldn't have looked at this data, but...

Because we'd just dealt with the repurchase of your watch earlier this week, I just looked at your original order, mere days ago. I still recalled your order date, the 7th, which was just four days earlier than that email, and the same day you made your appearance in this thread, just hours after placing your order.

What really struck me was this - as it happened (and as I still recalled from just recently looking at your order), that email went out on the exact same day your order was delivered, the 11th.

So you would have also gotten an order-delivered notification from us that same day. In fact, the delivery notification and our email newsletter were only minutes apart:









It seemed unlikely to me that you appeared here the same day you placed your order, and received your order the very day we sent that message, which included the alert that we were low on stock for the very model you were just asking me about...yet you somehow missed it.

In my experience and observation, people who are sincerely interested in a particular model from a particular brand don't overlook messages from that brand, not when the messages mention that model, and certainly not when one of those messages is sent the very day we delivered an order to them, a message that would have been received alongside the order delivery message.

Knowing you did in fact receive that message, and opened it more than once, your sudden interest in a v.2 Nacken was surprising. It seems even less likely that you were sincerely interested when you asked about it, and much more likely that you might have just been "poking the bear", so to speak, given some of your recent posts in this thread.

I wasn't condescending to you. I was trying to determine if you were deliberately trying to provoke a reaction from me, or if you were truly oblivious about how you've been coming across, which is to say, somewhat antagonistic, in a thread that is generally quite friendly.

I don't mind being quizzed. But my patience for being tested can wear thin, inevitably.

3. It's "Vail", not "Veil".

4. Again, sorry you didn't like the watch enough to keep it. When I bought it back from you, I honestly thought that would be the last we'd hear from you. And I'd hoped if you chose to go away, you'd at least be going away happy.

Not that I was actively hoping you'd disappear, yet I couldn't help but notice a change in the tone of your posts here, subsequent to that. You went from "really enjoying this 'Tudor Black Bay homage'!" (your exact words) to "Rolex knock-off" (ditto) in barely a month.

I don't care to argue over the semantic differences between homage and knock-off. That's not the point.

The point is - surely you can understand why one might wonder if you've just been stirring the pot the entire time. "Tudor Black Bay homage" is a lot of extra key-strokes in lieu of simply typing "Barracuda". Progressing to calling something a "knock off" ups the ante. It raises questions about what point you've been trying to make.

In between, and by your own admission, you got defensive about your bezel action, despite my best efforts to avoid exactly that outcome, and took offense at my response when you asked if we planned to use Sellita movements in future production.

Perhaps a re-reading of your own posts might lead you to see that, if anything, you've been a bit of a bull in a china shop, despite my occasional and best attempts to subtly suggest a different approach. If you weren't trying to antagonize, then I'd say any reasonable person might see your posts as a bit odd, at the very least.

All that said - if it's your intention to seek greener pastures, I sincerely wish you the best in finding them. My ultimate goal is for everyone to find happiness, even if I can't be the one to deliver it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> Howdy Folks,
> 
> I hope You are all having a Good Day.  I am wearing one "Watch Gecko Special Grey" .....
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear the shipment has been delayed, my friend. I've been hearing more about that sort of thing, recently, it seems. A watch we recently shipped to a customer in Singapore needed almost a month to be delivered.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

You want PITA bezel action? 
Get an SMP. 
Don't get me wrong, I love it, but wtf were they thinking?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

A day early for #NTHursday, but what the heck.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You want PITA bezel action?
> Get an SMP.
> Don't get me wrong, I love it, but wtf were they thinking?


Seriously? I've handled a few (that's what she said). I don't recall them being unusual in any way.

Look...the Subs bezels start out stiff, but soften up with use. Both v.1 and v.2.

Like I've said, more than once, I think the v.2's bezel is slightly harder to turn, just by virtue of its different profile, and possibly a tighter retention ring. But having now shipped ~500 of them, we've only received...[checks notes]...one complaint about the stiffness (here in this thread). If we had widespread problems, we'd know it.

We didn't find anything wrong with that watch, and not for a lack of trying. What am I supposed to say about it?

I have nerve damage at the base of both thumbs, resulting from (admittedly comic) accidents. My grip strength rivals the typical 8-year old girl or rheumatoid patient, yet I can still turn the bezel on my Mack without breaking a sweat.

Maybe we can get a two-fer on a pair of these?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Seriously? I've handled a few (that's what she said). I don't recall them being unusual in any way.
> 
> Look...the Subs bezels start out stiff, but soften up with use. Both v.1 and v.2.
> 
> ...


Older references, I wouldn't know. Never handled one. But the newer SMP with the big ass scallops, i simply have a hard time gripping. I resort to simply putting downward force on the _top_ of the bezel and let friction do the work. 

Perhaps bezel "action" was the wrong way to put it. 

I just can't ever get a good grip on the damn thing.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> As dispassionate as I can be...
> 
> read... "blah blah blah and a lot more blah blah blah."


More focus on producing fine watches, respect for customers, and less internet blabber on and on and on, would serve you well.

The bezel required very significant effort to turn - not conducive to comfortable, typical use. Your initial reaction tended toward implying that I wasn't fit enough to operate the bezel. Amazing. Yes, it could be turned. But it was poorly stiff tensioned to begin with and I wasn't about to be held responsible for that shortcoming. Having another BB copy, which is very nice, I decided to take a $230 loss (your gain) and return the Barracuda. Enough about the bezel.

My interest in the black Nacken was genuine, though your suspicions have gotten the better of you - you worked awfully hard to try to suspect some nefarious intent on my part. No false interest in the Black Nacken existed. When I first looked at the Nacken, I was largely focused on the new Barracuda arrival and I was a bit put off by the stark whiteness of the hands. And, now I have a San Martin BB copy, which is an awesome watch. I don't need two BB copies. (Many folks here think it quite appropriate to call such watches copies, rather than homage.) The designs are, quite significantly, directly copied from Tudor - so copy is probably more accurate than the sanitized term "homage". And, the Nacken is essentially a copy of the Pelagos. As I mentioned earlier, I'm OK having a Tudor or Submariner copy, as long as they are nicely done, with a good movement. I don't fault you or other makers for making knock-offs - you aren't peddling them as the real thing. And you certainly can not deny working to capture the "essence' of Tudor's designs.

In general, your attitude has seemed to me to be a bit arrogant and condescending, unless you're being coddled by your fan club. Especially at this point, today, NTH (the owner in particular) has not been an especially pleasant experience for me. So... we can leave it at that.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

DesertArt said:


> More focus on producing fine watches, respect for customers, and less internet blabber on and on and on, would serve you well.
> 
> The bezel required very significant effort to turn - not conducive to comfortable, typical use. Your initial reaction tended toward implying that I wasn't fit enough to operate the bezel. Amazing. Yes, it could be turned. But it was poorly stiff tensioned to begin with and I wasn't about to be held responsible for that shortcoming. Having another BB copy, which is very nice, I decided to take a $230 loss (your gain) and return the Barracuda. Enough about the bezel.
> 
> ...


C'mon now....seriously?


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Mediocre said:


> C'mon now....seriously?


Indeed. I have no intent otherwise. Doubt as you wish, if you wish. I'm done making my point. 

This round and round can dance as long as the wish to be tethered to it and the computer. I've got all the time in the world. Smart money? Moves along to greater good.


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## pork chop (Jun 24, 2010)

I kinda wanna buy one of these watches just to feel the bezel action!


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

docvail said:


> Sorry to hear the shipment has been delayed, my friend. I've been hearing more about that sort of thing, recently, it seems. A watch we recently shipped to a customer in Singapore needed almost a month to be delivered.


No Worries, Doc...
As it turned out...
It seems as though the freight forwarders app just cannot send the proper information in a timely manner.There comes a knock on the door, and even though it is still raining, breezy, and foggy, the air freight forwarder decided it could make the trip here, and...






























































Its Great!

Enjoy your time... (It Changed!)


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

#nthursday

Still my favourite (but I've not worn the Amphion yet)


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

DesertArt said:


> I'm done making my point.


It'll be interesting if this is actually the case. 

I have my doubts since gammas gonna gamma. 

Oh, and since it's #NTHursday:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> No Worries, Doc...
> As it turned out...
> It seems as though the freight forwarders app just cannot send the proper information in a timely manner.There comes a knock on the door, and even though it is still raining, breezy, and foggy, the air freight forwarder decided it could make the trip here, and...
> 
> ...


Happy to see it arrived safely, and that you appear pleased. Let us know if it gives you any trouble (like, it stops working correctly, not raiding the liquor cabinet and turfing the lawn). Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Spending the day at the beach while wearing my Santa Cruz. I love this watch . I don't have a v2 as I prefer the design without crown guards. I did try my bezel, even though I never really use it, and it is stiff but easy to use. I buy these watches for the design and how they look and wear on the wrist.
















Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Just noticed my random back and forth is gone. Wasted effort, should have gone to bed.

Now off to wear an NTH today...


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Mediocre said:


> Just noticed my random back and forth is gone. Wasted effort, should have gone to bed.


‘twas fun while it lasted, anyway.  Enjoyed bantering with you.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

NWA:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> NWA:
> 
> View attachment 16869982


So jealous. That's my fave of the bunch.

How do you like it?


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> So jealous. That's my fave of the bunch.
> 
> How do you like it?


I like it pretty well so far. It's my first v2 Sub, and I really like the case. Not that the v1 case was bad, but this one has more going on. It looks more elegant, especially from the side profile.

A few observations:

- The bezel feels tighter compared to the v1 Subs. It still works as it should but it has a somewhat less enjoyable feel, probably due to the new edge profile. It looks good though.

- The daylight color of the lume on the hands is quite close but not exactly the same as on the hour markers (insert pantone discussion here). The lume on the v1 vintage Näcken models are better matched. Still, nothing you would notice unless you were really looking. One could claim it was done on purpose, leaning into the vintage aspect of the model.

- I like how the aluminum bezel gives the watch a more vintage look, but the regular stainless steel bezel feels more special and tool watch worthy.

- The crystal is beautiful from the side profile. Dead on, it feels a bit flat and makes me miss the domed crystal of the regular Subs. It also makes the watch a bit top heavy, but not so much that it wobbles around on a NATO strap.

- I like the date window and magnifier. The magnifier works well, and I appreciate the date feature.

Overall, I like it. For me the watch's real selling feature is the side profile. I should have taken a photo - I will tomorrow.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> I like it pretty well so far. It's my first v2 Sub, and I really like the case. Not that the v1 case was bad, but this one has more going on. It looks more elegant, especially from the side profile.
> 
> A few observations:
> 
> ...


The v.2 bezels are tighter, I think. But also, if you've owned your v.1 a while, its bezel action has likely softened up, making the difference between a well-used v.1 and a brand-new v.2 more noticeable.

I just ran through all my Subs, rotating the bezels, paying attention to the sound and feel. They're all similar enough, but the newer / less-worn ones definitely have a harsher sound and feel than the older / more-worn ones.

I don't know what to make of the difference in appearance of the lume's color on the hands vs. the markers. I've heard that before about other NTH models (particularly the Nacken Modern Blue or Black, with their white-coated indices), and read it about watches from other brands. 

There was a thread in the public forum about a Tudor BB where the lume on the hands was an ever-so-slightly different white than the lume on the indices. I don't think most people would even notice, but someone in that thread was able to "prove" the difference with some sort of digital color sampling.

Tudor BB58 925's hands colour not matching the indecis 

I suspect it comes down to one or two things, or a combination of both - the difference in the underlying materials / surfaces, or perhaps it's as simple as the dial supplier and the handset supplier were using two ever-so-slightly-different batches of lume mix. 

The lume color on the WG Subs isn't exactly "custom", but nor is it one of Tritec's standard colors. It's one that they'd already developed, but which I think they mix up only when it's ordered. 

My understanding from my primary vendor (my OEM) is that they order the lume from Tritec, and supply it to the sub-vendors making hands, dials, and bezels. So in theory, there shouldn't be any difference, no "other batch", if my OEM is supplying them all from the same "stock". But I wonder if their supply isn't sub-divided in some way, which might somehow lead to slight differences in appearance.

Looking forward to seeing that side profile...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Searching for that Tudor thread wasn't easy. Apparently this is a recurring theme...









Black Bay 58 lume question


I picked this up yesterday, it's very nice, I'm just wondering if the minute hand lume is typical of the brand or price point. It's not noticeable if I glance at the watch for two seconds to tell the time like a normal person. Only when you keep staring like a WIS does it become apparent that...




www.watchuseek.com













Uneven lume on a Black Bay 58?


OK so this is not that obvious in the pics, but by adjusting the brightness I can see that the lume on the 'snowflake' of the hour hand in not evenly applied. I suddenly saw this today after just under a year of owning it, from a distance almost looks like a few shadows/spots. I checked with a...




www.watchuseek.com





On that second one, I didn't even get to the actual lume. I got stuck looking at the difference in the gold trim of the indices, which appears to be rose gold, versus the hands, which appear to be yellow gold.

This would literally drive me insane:


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

docvail said:


> Happy to see it arrived safely, and that you appear pleased. Let us know if it gives you any trouble (like, it stops working correctly, not raiding the liquor cabinet and turfing the lawn). Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


 Thanks Doc. It's all good, although....  .... the bezel action is a little stiff...  ....But that has been well-covered here. 

Better a tad tight than too loose. _(Been there, done that.)

_


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

When different shades of white under a magnifier are a problem, I envy you. I personally tip over because of the difference in surface texture!


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Re: Lume color difference - I think the backing is key. Most of the hands we use are skeletonized, so there's nothing behind the lume. With printed lume and indices that are filled with lume, there's going to be some change in the apparent tint because there's something underneath the lume other than air. The difference in color is likely the very slight translucence of the lume allowing just enough light to pass through to accentuate certain tones/tints.

Just my $.07 - I'll let you decide if it's because of inflation or because I'm just so smart.

-Rusty


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I had a tough time trying to match lume, swapping out hands on a Glycine Combat 6 - the lume on the dial appears to be printed directly over the sunray blue dial, giving it a greenish hue. If you get something like C1, the hands will def appear more yellow than the indexes. C3 was a decent, but still not perfect match. 

You can drive yourself insane with stuff like that. I have a hard time with those who take a loupe or do macro shots to examine watches - couldn't live like that.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

Snaggletooth said:


> View attachment 16870998
> View attachment 16871002


Where the hell's that, then? Cornwall?


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

starwasp said:


> Where the hell's that, then? Cornwall?


Right country, wrong latitude. 60ºN.


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## gokce (May 10, 2018)

Here are some side profile views of the WatchGecko exclusive model, vs. a v1 Sub and a Squale 20 Atmos:










I definitely prefer the v2 case, and that top hat crystal is the icing on the cake.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Snaggletooth said:


> Right country, wrong latitude. 60ºN.
> View attachment 16871635


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

gokce said:


> Here are some side profile views of the WatchGecko exclusive model, vs. a v1 Sub and a Squale 20 Atmos:
> 
> View attachment 16871685
> 
> ...


Great comparison photos. Sorry in advance to everyone, but: 

The WG Nacken blue looks surprisingly purple-hued. I had hoped for more of a navy, leaning a bit towards gray, like the V1(b) Nacken dial. Ah well.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Great comparison photos. Sorry in advance to everyone, but:
> 
> The WG Nacken blue looks surprisingly purple-hued. I had hoped for more of a navy, leaning a bit towards gray, like the V1(b) Nacken dial. Ah well.


It does look purple in some lights. When we got the inserts in, I asked Dan to inventory them, and he thought they were purple under the more yellowish light in his shop. 

It is blue, but definitely a shade that leans more towards indigo than green.

It'll be interesting to see if the colors fade over time and sunlight exposure.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Just saw this and can't help but feel I've seen something similar from Doc. Could it be the bezel insert and and beads of poop?










Does Invicta homage micros too???


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## ylnahnwatch (Oct 1, 2015)

Haven't checked out NTH in a while but looks like you and the brand are doing well doc... Might be picking up a V2 Barracuda soon. Keep it up.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> It'll be interesting to see if the colors fade over time and sunlight exposure.


...or, should you sell the bezel online (), to see how they fade in the oven...


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## Biginboca (Mar 7, 2006)

Speaking of lume… I’m really impressed with it on this watch. It’s the only watch I’ve had with white lume that rivals the white lume on my blue Pelagos for brightness and longevity. Well done!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Just saw this and can't help but feel I've seen something similar from Doc. Could it be the bezel insert and and beads of poop?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We can't lay claim to originating the BOR bracelet, but they definitely "borrowed" the way we do the bezel triangle/pip.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ylnahnwatch said:


> Haven't checked out NTH in a while but looks like you and the brand are doing well doc... Might be picking up a V2 Barracuda soon. Keep it up.


Thanks, will do, and you might want to hurry, because global inventory on the v.2 Barracudas is very low.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> ...or, should you sell the bezel online (), to see how they fade in the oven...


Soon enough.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Biginboca said:


> View attachment 16875954
> 
> 
> Speaking of lume… I’m really impressed with it on this watch. It’s the only watch I’ve had with white lume that rivals the white lume on my blue Pelagos for brightness and longevity. Well done!


Cheers mate!


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## Nokie (Jul 4, 2011)

I have been looking this thread over on this brand. 

Pretty impressed with all of the pictures here.


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## Orin (12 mo ago)

No questions or anything, just saying thanks for making such awesome watches!!


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Nokie said:


> I have been looking this thread over on this brand.
> 
> Pretty impressed with all of the pictures here.


You are a smart man for focusing on the pictures, and not spending your time with most of the print.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Beatlloydy (9 mo ago)

Damn another nice tein crown in the Antilles. Will you be making more as my nearest AD (still over 1000km away) in NZ is out of stock. Any new releases of twin crown compression style on the horizon?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Nokie said:


> I have been looking this thread over on this brand.
> 
> Pretty impressed with all of the pictures here.


Hop on the bandwagon, Dude.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Beatlloydy said:


> Damn another nice tein crown in the Antilles. Will you be making more as my nearest AD (still over 1000km away) in NZ is out of stock. Any new releases of twin crown compression style on the horizon?


We may make another dual-crown model at some point, but likely not for at least a year or two. There are still some available from the NTH site and our other retailers, many of whom will ship internationally, some for free.

Try these:









NTH


NTH is an American brand that is inspired by classic and vintage designs but takes watches to the next level. To the Nth degree!




www.seriouswatches.com













인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com










NTH Watches | Island Watch







longislandwatch.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Beatlloydy said:


> Damn another nice tein crown in the Antilles. Will you be making more as my nearest AD (still over 1000km away) in NZ is out of stock. Any new releases of twin crown compression style on the horizon?


Adding to my response above, having had the chance to check my notes...

We made 300 of the first v.1 Tropics in 2017, and 350 of the more recent v.2's in 2021. So, it was a four year production interval, without a big increase in production count, for whatever that's worth.

It's possible we'll make more in 2023, but more likely, not until 2024. People just seem to prefer external bezel designs to internal bezel designs, so we don't produce the Tropics with the same volume or frequency as the Subs or DevilRays.

There are currently 20-22 pieces of the v.2 Tropics left available:

1 piece (of 50) of the Antilles Dark Rum, at IntoWatch, in Korea - 인투와치. Email [email protected] to request they remove the Korean sales tax before purchasing. The store owner, Jun, speaks fluent English, and is very responsive.

2-3 pieces (of 50) of the Antilles Cointreau - 1 or 2 at IntoWatch, 1 at Five:45 in New Zealand - NTH - Antilles Cointreau no/date – FiveFortyFive

2-3 pieces (of 25) of the Antilles Hpnotiq - 1 at IntoWatch, 1 or 2 at Island Watches - NTH Antilles 200-Meter Hi-Beat Automatic Dive Watch with a DD AR Sapphire Crystal #WW-NTH-TNHN

1 piece (of 25) of the Antilles Rosé, at IntoWatch - 인투와치

2 pieces (of 50) of the Azores Absinthe, no-date - 1 at Island Watch, 1 at Serious Watches in the EU - NTH Azores Absinthe No Date

2 pieces (of 50) of the Azores Absinthe, with-date - 1 at Serious, 1 at Watch Gecko - NTH Azores Tropic Automatic Divers Watch - Absinthe Green

3-4 pieces (of 50) of the Azores, Blue Curaçao, no-date - 1 or 2 at Island Watches, 1 at Serious, and 1 at IntoWatch

4-6 pieces (of 50) of the Azores, Blue Curaçao, with-date - 1 or 2 at Island Watches, 1 or 2 at Watch Gecko, 1 at Serious, and 1 at Zatoka Zegarków in Poland - Zegarek diver - NTH Azores Blue Curaçao (z datą) + latarka UV

I figure a third of the above will be gone by the end of next month, another third by the end of the year, and the remaining third will probably be available until mid-2023, but those remaining that long will most likely be the ones available from our most far-flung retailers around the globe, or those whose prices include taxes foreign customers would typically object to paying.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

DevilRay Tuesday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.
















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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting listing on the 'bay. Seller claims the watch is "unworn", but my hunch is they swapped an unworn BOR bracelet onto an unblemished Skipjack case, as we never sold the Skipjack with the BOR, only the oyster.

Still, price seems quite reasonable...









NEW / UNWORN - NTH Skipjack / No Date 300m Diver Watch - Beads of Rice Bracelet | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NEW / UNWORN - NTH Skipjack / No Date 300m Diver Watch - Beads of Rice Bracelet at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Interesting listing on the 'bay. Seller claims the watch is "unworn", but my hunch is they swapped an unworn BOR bracelet onto an unblemished Skipjack case, as we never sold the Skipjack with the BOR, only the oyster.
> 
> Still, price seems quite reasonable...
> 
> ...


If patient can find them close to $400.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

WHAT! no posts in two days? Is the thread broken??

here is a watch in the evening sun to keep it going ( and to test it works)


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Check check, one two one two!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm still alive. Thanks for checking.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I wonder where all the good old Lew&Huey watches are at. Orthos, Cerberus, That one that was styled after a gunship airplane - flapjack or something like that? ... Good times.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I wonder where all the good old Lew&Huey watches are at. Orthos, Cerberus, That one that was styled after a gunship airplane - flapjack or something like that? ... Good times.


Spectre, you mean?

They're around. 

My working theory is that within 2-3 years of a watch being bought by a WIS, if it was going to be flipped, it's been flipped, and whoever has it now most likely plans to keep it, so you don't see them come up for sale much anymore. 

Also, I think the typical WIS enters and exits the hobby over a seven year time frame, on average. So you tend not to see as many posts from guys who were active here more than 7 years ago, when those watches were sold.

I still sometimes see guys posting L&H's online, but nowhere near as frequently as I used to. For that matter, I don't see as many v.1 NTH's produced circa 2016-2017 compared to how often I used to see them posted.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

7 years. Pish


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Well done Chris! Santa Fe just slinked off to the neighbors for scraps:-( 


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Also, I think the typical WIS enters and exits the hobby over a seven year time frame, on average. So you tend not to see as many posts from guys who were active here more than 7 years ago, when those watches were sold.


An interesting observation. Certainly in many threads I visit a small number of WIS's contribute the most number of the posts.

More recently I've found that threads that were very active for many years seem to have slowed right down our even expired. 

Perhaps there is a limited lifespan to threads and even contributors. 

I suspect that a lot of forum members are "occasional" members who have joined for specific reasons ie. researching a watch and although drawn in for a time eventually move on. 

I wonder if when looking at the WUS forum as a whole that "Pareto's principle" applies. 

A relatively speaking small number of the total members contribute the majority of posts? 

Certainly I have been querying the functionality of crappatalk over the past few weeks as many of the active threads I lurk/ contribute to have become dormant. 

When this one slowed down... 

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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Kinesis said:


> Well done Chris! Santa Fe just slinked off to the neighbors for scraps:-(
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Crown is unscrewed.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> An interesting observation. Certainly in many threads I visit a small number of WIS's contribute the most number of the posts.
> 
> More recently I've found that threads that were very active for many years seem to have slowed right down our even expired.
> 
> ...


I do believe there's some 80-20 stuff happening. But also, and I hate to be morbid - people die. Even WIS. They retire. They move onto other things. They "exit" the hobby, or move up in price range, or whatever. There were guys who owned a dozen or more of my watches, and posted in the L&H or NTH threads daily, but haven't been seen here in 2-3 years.

I miss them, and if they re-appear, that's awesome. But there are new folks joining the forums all the time. Always fresh blood coming in, to replace the guys who fade away.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This is still one of my most worn watches and has been since I bought it. I also have a whilver Cerberus, but that does not get the same amount of love that the Orthos does. 

Unfortunately for the L&H models both are larger watches and the NTH subs have moved me towards smaller watches in general. Now I tend to wear 40-42mm divers and 36-38mm business/dress watches.

Admittedly I post less frequently these days as my interest has wained over the years. Then again I have never flipped a watch and I currently have far too many, so maybe if I sell some it might reignite my interest.









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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I still have an estimated 5 years before I move on. But mostly, my post frequency has dropped simply due to work.

We moved shop a few months ago, and I took over the day to day operations of the shop floor. Stack a butt load of new hires to train on all that, free time during the day is limited. 

Hard to post wrist shots when you're running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

Joined Oct 13, 2015:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kinesis said:


> Well done Chris! Santa Fe just slinked off to the neighbors for scraps:-(
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cheers, brother. I'm happy if you're happy. Let us know if it gives you any trouble, and we'll get it sorted. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

I think the reality is that hobby forums are dying. I've been part of a few different hobby and enthusiast forums over the past 20 years.

Much of that activity moved to Reddit, or to Facebook groups, or I think Discord. Different venues for the same thing, but more confusing and disjointed for old guys like me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Didn't plan on getting into this here, but...since we're in the nest of safety, or whatever...

Aside from my business keeping me busier than I was 4-5 years back, when I was posting much more frequently, I've had some personal stuff going on in my life the last couple years.

My mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's a few years ago, and she's been declining rapidly more recently. I've been spending half a day with her, once a week, for about a year, to give my step-father some relief from having to watch her constantly, and to try to spend as much time with her as I can before her mind fully goes. I'm extremely fortunate to work for myself, which gives me the flexibility in my schedule. But the knowledge that my mom is slowly dying, while slowly losing her mind, and that there will soon come a day when she spends every waking moment in terror, fills me with dread.

I've been estranged from some family the last few years, including my brother, which feels like a betrayal. The reasons are stupid, frankly, but beyond my control.

Lastly, my wife and I are separating, after being together almost 30 years. It's been mostly amicable, but nonetheless hard, both on us, and our sons, and our extended families.

When I started my business ten years ago, it was stressful, but also fun in a weird way. I felt like I had to be here, but I enjoyed being here. I poured all my energy into this, because I was fighting for my family's survival. It helped that I enjoyed what I was doing. But my sons were 6 and 10 at the time, and I missed out on some moments I'll never get back. There were days when I was working that I should have been spending with them.

I lost a very close friend to a heart attack 13 years ago. This was shortly after the great recession started, and I chalked it up to the stress of trying to provide for his wife and kids as his career was sliding sideways. There were others, guys I knew from the Army or business, who checked out in one way or another. I almost lost another one, a close peer, to a stroke, just last year. The stress of running his business clearly got to him.

Learning that Mack had been KIA hit me hard. Some of you may remember that one of my close friend's sons was murdered in front of their house, early in the lockdowns. Just a completely random act of unimaginable violence. He was the same age as my older son, both seniors in high school at the time. I was filled with rage for him and his family, and nowhere to direct it.

I turned 50 late last year. It all kind of hit me at once. All these things that had been coming at me, not just the last few years, but for the last 2-3 decades, I just pushed them to the side and tried to move on, like they weren't there. But the pile of stuff I'd been ignoring just got too big. I went through a rough patch for a few months early this year, when I couldn't shake a feeling of invisible weight crushing me from above.

With what's been going on with the world in general, and my mom, and my family, and my marriage, I had to pull back a bit, and find other ways to occupy my mind. Pouring myself into my business wasn't going to work for me the way it did ten years ago, when I was starting from zero. I'm way past zero now, closer to the ceiling than the floor. Working harder on my business wasn't going to fix anything for me.

I got off Facebook, which had become irredeemably toxic. I haven't been spending nearly the time I used to here on WUS, and mostly just look at this thread. I lost almost all interest in anything watch-related that doesn't impact my business.

I still check in here every day, just to see what's going on, and to share the occasional updates on new releases or low stock. It feels good to see people are happy with my work-product. Yes, this is a business, and I work for money, but knowing that I'm delivering happiness to my customers, many of whom have become friends, is a big motivator. There was a time when I made $hlt-tons of money in my previous career, but never felt like I was doing anything meaningful, which was part of why I quit. No one emails you to tell you how awesome the insurance you sold them is.

I've now been doing this longer than anything else. It's become all I know, the only thing I'm good at. I don't know what the exit will look like, or when it will appear. I just hope I'll recognize it when it does, and that I'll be able to bow out gracefully, at the peak. If I keel over while working on my laptop, whoever finds my body has my permission to kick the corpse.

Anyway, sorry to be a Debbie Downer. Please don't read it that way. I've made peace with my mom's illness, the effective loss of my brother, and the end of my marriage. I turned a corner recently, going from feeling like my best days were behind me, to feeling like they're actually still ahead.

People say "when one door closes, another opens." Not me. I say, when someone shuts the door in your face, you kick that $hlt in, and walk in like you own the joint. Life is a contact sport, and it's too short to go tip-toeing around. Grab a helmet, and get in there and mix it up a bit. See what happens. Earn some battle scars. You might surprise yourself. If you're lucky, you might make a few friends and have a little fun.

That's it for now. I'm going to go have some fun. Y'all do the same. Try to be good, but even if you're bad, no matter what, be awesome.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Didn't plan on getting into this here, but...since we're in the nest of safety, or whatever...
> 
> Aside from my business keeping me busier than I was 4-5 years back, when I was posting much more frequently, I've had some personal stuff going on in my life the last couple years.
> 
> ...


I'd give a reaction if there was a proper one. A mixture of happy/sad/angry.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Doc, this is why I've hung around for more than 7 years. I really lost interest in watches, but I never lose interest in friends. Hang in there, Brother.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I appreciate all you’ve shared Chris, I’m also dealing with my mother in her demise as it is currently as well. She is literally bleeding to death internally but as she is of such poor health she can’t have anesthesia so the docs can’t operate to stem the gastrointestinal bleeders.

Close friends are to be cherished and to lose one, no matter the situation, sucks hard.

I’m close by. Always happy to be a bar buddy if you need one. I got your 6.


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## blitzoid (Jan 21, 2016)

doc, I don’t think “like” is really the appropriate response to that post, because I wish you weren’t navigating so much at once, but I do really appreciate the transparency, wisdom, and honesty you bring to everything you share.

That perspective on all things watchmaking (and sometimes life in general) is what’s kept me coming back to lurk here in the forum year after year. Pretty sure I’m not alone!


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Chris, I have been in your shoes, and I know that its not fun. There is no appropriate short hand reaction symbol for all the emotions I feel after reading some of the comments here, but suffice it to say, Friends can be found in surprising places and circumstances. 
Life, and Learning about it, is hard sometimes. I'm still learning. You are Too.
But, you'll get through it, like you said. 
I am going to be 69 next year, and I'm looking forward to it. 
I have learned after losing my younger brother (who I was very close to) and all the other members of my family (except for my younger sister - who I am 'quasi-estranged' from)... that you don't get over all this 'stuff' .... You take what you can learn from all that has happened, and you move on.

Anyway, My Best Wishes to You, (and all here actually)... Friends are where you find them. 

Take Care, Be Well. Have Some Fun. "It's Not Over Yet."


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Howdy.... 










It's a dark day here, Summer is on the way out, the shrubbery and plants are all showing the inevitable approach of Fall.

And, _in Remembrance of a Friend I never met_..... A Fine Tribute.

Be Well, Live! Enjoy Your Time... _It's Shorter than You think.

_


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Aw, Chris... sorry to hear all this. All sympathy. Lost my mom a couple weeks ago after three years failing. Been divorced a couple times - amicably doesn't make end of an era-worth of relationship easier. Be well. Be sad/angry. But stick around.


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Chris... wow. I'm sorry for all that you're going through. And like others here, I can relate. Probably because we're largely a group of men in the same age and life experience cohort. I'm 43, and my mom is currently in the ICU. Her liver and kidneys have basically given up. I'm driving up to see her in the hospital shortly after I post this reply.

I can also very much relate to your comment about feeling "an invisible weight". I don't know what's up with it but I get that same feeling, usually when there's a convergence of stressful stuff going on (like now). Last night after getting an update on my mom's condition from an ICU nurse over the phone, I got this idea in my head that the icemaker in the refrigerator had stopped working, and I spent the next 30 minutes monkeying with it. Spoiler: the icemaker is fine. I might not be. But I've recognized this pattern in myself where when there are bad things happening that I can't control, I find something, anything, that I CAN control, and I fixate on it.

I've mentioned here before that I've been retired from the Army for about 5 years now, after serving 20 years as an EOD specialist. Two tours each in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus a year in Kosovo clearing landmines and UXO. When I retired I claimed no disability because... I'm not disabled. I'm able to work at a good job that allows me to support my family and waste money on watches. There are guys who came home missing one or more limbs, or with debilitating mental trauma, who really need those benefits. But I've been slowly coming to terms with the fact that I probably have some low-grade PTSD, and might need to find some help for it sooner rather than later. These occasional freak-outs that I have don't seem to be going away, and I know they're probably not healthy.

Anyway, not trying to turn a "you" thing into a "me" thing. Just saying that you're not alone. Lots of us are there with you. I don't know what this stupid NTH thread is about, or why I keep coming here (and here only) on a daily or weekly basis to read posts from the same group of guys. I think it maybe stopped being about watches a while ago. In any case, I'm glad it's here, and that all (or at least most) of you are here.

Regards,
Chuck


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

docvail said:


> Didn't plan on getting into this here, but...since we're in the nest of safety, or whatever...
> 
> Aside from my business keeping me busier than I was 4-5 years back, when I was posting much more frequently, I've had some personal stuff going on in my life the last couple years.
> 
> ...


Chris, I for one am glad you took time to post this, but mostly I’m glad you’re here.
Cheers to you fella.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Didn't plan on getting into this here, but...since we're in the nest of safety, or whatever...
> 
> Aside from my business keeping me busier than I was 4-5 years back, when I was posting much more frequently, I've had some personal stuff going on in my life the last couple years.
> 
> ...


Yep... same stuff that we all get dealt, now and then, over time. Life is a challenging trial, even for the most fortunate of us all. Plow along, man. And like everyone else, in time we all join the fleet of lives on outta here. Life's lessons are constantly at work. No one is immune. Tough-guy, playing the hard-ass, kickin' in doors.... not such a great approach, really. That's just a hollow, defensive front failing to shield a vulnerable interior. Introspection, grace, kindness, benefit of the doubt... can be wonderful relief to life's stresses. Go with it. Life is short. Step away from all of it. Let some stuff just go on away downstream. Don't try so hard. Meditate stressless peace. That can help you get to the end.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Monday
















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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Didn't plan on getting into this here, but...since we're in the nest of safety, or whatever...
> 
> Aside from my business keeping me busier than I was 4-5 years back, when I was posting much more frequently, I've had some personal stuff going on in my life the last couple years.
> 
> ...


Chris, Im not going to bore you with a lot of words, but just know that we here in your NTH thread are your friends and your WIS family. we will support you and be here for you to vent to, or chat about stuff. I wish you the strength to get through all thats on your plate right now. 
Adam


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I'd give a reaction if there was a proper one. A mixture of happy/sad/angry.


It's all good, brother.



dmjonez said:


> Doc, this is why I've hung around for more than 7 years. I really lost interest in watches, but I never lose interest in friends. Hang in there, Brother.


Thanks, Dave. I'm happy you've stuck around.



Rhorya said:


> I appreciate all you’ve shared Chris, I’m also dealing with my mother in her demise as it is currently as well. She is literally bleeding to death internally but as she is of such poor health she can’t have anesthesia so the docs can’t operate to stem the gastrointestinal bleeders.
> 
> Close friends are to be cherished and to lose one, no matter the situation, sucks hard.
> 
> I’m close by. Always happy to be a bar buddy if you need one. I got your 6.


Sorry to hear about your mom, Rhory. That sounds like a lousy situation for your family. I think you told me your new gig has you working closer to me. I'm down for meeting up whenever.



blitzoid said:


> doc, I don’t think “like” is really the appropriate response to that post, because I wish you weren’t navigating so much at once, but I do really appreciate the transparency, wisdom, and honesty you bring to everything you share.
> 
> That perspective on all things watchmaking (and sometimes life in general) is what’s kept me coming back to lurk here in the forum year after year. Pretty sure I’m not alone!


No worries, mate. Appreciate you being here.



OmegaCosmicMan said:


> Chris, I have been in your shoes, and I know that its not fun. There is no appropriate short hand reaction symbol for all the emotions I feel after reading some of the comments here, but suffice it to say, Friends can be found in surprising places and circumstances.
> Life, and Learning about it, is hard sometimes. I'm still learning. You are Too.
> But, you'll get through it, like you said.
> I am going to be 69 next year, and I'm looking forward to it.
> ...


Thanks, brother. All good stuff.



mconlonx said:


> Aw, Chris... sorry to hear all this. All sympathy. Lost my mom a couple weeks ago after three years failing. Been divorced a couple times - amicably doesn't make end of an era-worth of relationship easier. Be well. Be sad/angry. But stick around.


Thanks Mike! I don't plan on going anywhere.



Coriolanus said:


> Chris... wow. I'm sorry for all that you're going through. And like others here, I can relate. Probably because we're largely a group of men in the same age and life experience cohort. I'm 43, and my mom is currently in the ICU. Her liver and kidneys have basically given up. I'm driving up to see her in the hospital shortly after I post this reply.
> 
> I can also very much relate to your comment about feeling "an invisible weight". I don't know what's up with it but I get that same feeling, usually when there's a convergence of stressful stuff going on (like now). Last night after getting an update on my mom's condition from an ICU nurse over the phone, I got this idea in my head that the icemaker in the refrigerator had stopped working, and I spent the next 30 minutes monkeying with it. Spoiler: the icemaker is fine. I might not be. But I've recognized this pattern in myself where when there are bad things happening that I can't control, I find something, anything, that I CAN control, and I fixate on it.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your mom, too, Chuck. And don't worry about telling us about what's going on in your world. That's not making it about you. This is and always has been about all of us. This is our Elks Lodge. Our VFW. Our bowling night.

The last few years, I've had many occasions when I reminded myself, "you never know what's going on in other folks' lives. They could be going through hell." I think as men we're conditioned to bottle it all up inside, and we think, "what good will mentioning it do? That'll just remind me." But sometimes just mentioning it out loud, to anyone, can help.

And I understand low-grade PTSD. I think I've developed a touch of it, too. I've noticed there are things that trigger me now, things that never used to. I can't be around crowds or in confined spaces for too long before I start to wig out. I almost had a panic attack at our town's Christmas tree lighting a couple years ago.

The realization that my anxiety was rooted somewhere hit me like a bolt of lightning. It was like, "ohhhhhh....yeah, that's right. They shut down the country and my wife lost her job and they burned down the cities and my friend's son was murdered on their front lawn in the middle of nowhere and my mom is dying and my marriage is ending and my brother turned his back on me and my hero was killed in a senseless war and there's an old man in the mirror...no wonder big groups of people and places without enough exits trigger my fight or flight response and set my pulse racing."

Working on my business was definitely a way to shift my focus from all the things I couldn't control to the one thing that seemed to be almost entirely within my control. It's a way to combat the feeling of powerlessness and surrounding chaos.



bigvic said:


> Chris, I for one am glad you took time to post this, but mostly I’m glad you’re here.
> Cheers to you fella.


Cheers to you, Vic. You're always welcome at the campfire.



PowerChucker said:


> Chris, Im not going to bore you with a lot of words, but just know that we here in your NTH thread are your friends and your WIS family. we will support you and be here for you to vent to, or chat about stuff. I wish you the strength to get through all thats on your plate right now.
> Adam


Thanks Adam!


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Sorry for your troubles Doc. Hope the best for you 

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Sorry for your troubles Doc. Hope the best for you
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


Thank you my friend.

Honestly, I wasn't seeking sympathy, just admitting some of the reasons I haven't been as active online recently. Like I said above, I think we all have a tendency to think everyone else's life is "normal", especially when folks are hesitant to admit when they're going through it. I figured I wasn't doing myself or anyone else any favors acting as if my life was all fancy parties with smelly cheeses.

I've been going through it. I've gotten through a good chunk of it. I'll get through the rest of it, and come out the other side more or less the same, just without my mom, without my wife, without a handful of people who chose not to be a part of my life, and hopefully, without any huge regrets.

No one gets out alive, or even unscathed. Until they box me up, I'll keep doing what I do.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Rhorya said:


>


 Oh that's nice....


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Didn't plan on getting into this here, but...since we're in the nest of safety, or whatever...
> 
> Aside from my business keeping me busier than I was 4-5 years back, when I was posting much more frequently, I've had some personal stuff going on in my life the last couple years.
> 
> ...


Feel free to get life off your chest here anytime sir. Praying for you sir. We appreciate what you do, and the watches too


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

I have found that it sometimes helps a great deal, sometimes provides great relief from the burdens we all struggle with, to just simply talk about them. 

It might be someone you had never met before, but strike up a conversation and see where it goes.

_(Ironically, I have had better results in airport waiting areas and the Local Tavern with other travelers and revelers than with "multi-$$$-per-hour-professional-help"....but anyway...)_

And for me, sometimes just relaxing with a little mechanical wonder you can hold in your hand. I can't explain how or why, but I have found that these watches have that effect in calming my mind. Maybe like a "Zen" moment or something, when you focus on the simplicity (and the complexity) of that little machine.

Anyway...

Here's one I call a _"trick of the light"_










_(Late afternoon, early Fall light on "*The Mack*")_

And then, on "Football Night" in America... Nervously fondling .... 











Will it be Seahawks....or Broncos?












NTH, FTW.

Carry On, Good People...


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

kpjimmy said:


> Mack Monday
> View attachment 16895040
> View attachment 16895041
> 
> ...


  Great Shots!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A brief word of caution...

A customer contacted us a couple weeks ago. It seems he purchased a used NTH Sub, which appeared fine on arrival, but subsequently found that the white lume was developing a red tint:








We've never seen this before. His was the first and only report.

After some back and forth with him about it, my best guess is that he or the previous owner must have exposed the bezel to some sort of chemical agent which dissolved the clear sealant applied over the lume. Once the sealant was dissolved, something caused the lume to develop the red tint. He said the watch would only have come into contact with soap and hand sanitizer.

From Google - hand sanitizers can cause stain like marks on clothing. Some contain alcohol, a known stain remover, others benzalkonium chloride which is a bleaching agent. When the sanitizer comes into contact with clothing, it can remove the color from the fabric. The marks are known as bleaching spots.

I've seen clothes develop red or pink spots after catching a drop of bleach. Superluminova is a mix of phosphorescent pigments. No telling how they’d react if exposed to alcohol- or benzalkonium chloride-based hand sanitizers.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Hand sanitizer removes all sorts of stuff. We've used it to clean sharpie off of plastic. 

I wonder if the previous owner used it as a readily-available solvent to clean gunk off the bezel off before listing for sale.


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

@docvail Heavy stuff. I wish you well. That's A LOT all at once. Wow.
Maybe reach out to try to reconcile with your brother 
(even if he is the one "at fault"). Life is too short.
Also, I wouldn't give up on a nearly 30 year marriage so fast. Just my thoughts.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

RotorRonin said:


> Hand sanitizer removes all sorts of stuff. We've used it to clean sharpie off of plastic.
> 
> I wonder if the previous owner used it as a readily-available solvent to clean gunk off the bezel off before listing for sale.


Oh yeah, isopropyl alcohol will remove permanent marker from a dry-erase board lickety-split. We've all been there.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

watchman600 said:


> @docvail Heavy stuff. I wish you well. That's A LOT all at once. Wow.
> Maybe reach out to try to reconcile with your brother
> (even if he is the one "at fault"). Life is too short.
> Also, I wouldn't give up on a nearly 30 year marriage so fast. Just my thoughts.


Outsider looking in here....

I re-read his post, and I did not take away that he "gave up on 30 years, so fast". I am sure it is already an uncomfortable subject, best not to jump to conclusions and make statements that could seem insensitive

Not looking for an argument, just sharing what I would prefer e-people do if I shared something so personal and significant on here.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

josiahg52 said:


> Oh yeah, isopropyl alcohol will remove permanent marker from a dry-erase board lickety-split. We've all been there.


Isopropyl alcohol is one of the few things that will clean a truly dirty windshield. Cuts through nearly everything


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hand sanitizer is very corrosive. I got some of it on black trousers early on in the Madness Days and it just ate away at the paint pigment. Now they have permanent gray-whiteish splash marks (you can image _what_ that ends up looking like...)

Basically it doesn't even need to have been intentional bezel destruction; it's enough if the previous owner was just a little bit enthusiastic about hand cleaning these past 2 years.

Still, damaged bezel is damaged bezel, pity.


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

@Mediocre I didn't make any conclusions. 
I was actually trying to instill a little hope.
I only meant for my post to be positive.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

The weather forecast indicated this would be the roughest day of the trip so far, woke up to clear skies and a lovely sunrise (which matched my orange strap rather splendidly). 
The seas are still a bit lumpy but I am looking forward to some fresh provisions delivery tomorrow, just so I can stave off the scurvy for a couple of more weeks.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

docvail said:


> Didn't plan on getting into this here, but...since we're in the nest of safety, or whatever...
> 
> Aside from my business keeping me busier than I was 4-5 years back, when I was posting much more frequently, I've had some personal stuff going on in my life the last couple years.
> 
> ...


Wow. No words, just… life 😐 

Keep on keeping on Bromigo 🤝


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> @docvail Heavy stuff. I wish you well. That's A LOT all at once. Wow.
> Maybe reach out to try to reconcile with your brother
> (even if he is the one "at fault"). Life is too short.
> Also, I wouldn't give up on a nearly 30 year marriage so fast. Just my thoughts.


Unfortunately, I don't think these relationships are fixable. Too much damage has been done over too long a timeline.


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## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

docvail said:


> Didn't plan on getting into this here, but...since we're in the nest of safety, or whatever...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Sorry for your troubles that ail you at this time. It's a struggle, especially when all these things can hit at roughly the same time. I remember my similar circumstance a few years ago when my ex wife of 3 years and I filed for divorce. What was a 24 year friendship (33 for our fathers) became a catastrophic blow-out wherein they claimed that everything wrong with the marriage was entirely my fault, and it turned out my ex was just looking to grab as much money out of the divorce as possible (confirmed about 2 years later that she had been cheating on me in our final year of marriage). To add salt to the injury, for reasons outside of anything from the marriage, I became estranged from roughly 50% of my extended family because they were angry at my parents for other reasons, and they decided they'd rather be friends with my ex and in-laws than family with us. The heaviness of the circumstances can get intense.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

RE: Red tint lume. 

Maybe Definitely not the same thing, but I was using one of those cloths that some vendors give away with watches or watch products, which happened to be red. On a Tiger Concept with applied lume pip at 12, it rubbed red into the pip lume. Just one data point...


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> RE: Red tint lume.
> 
> Maybe Definitely not the same thing, but I was using one of those cloths that some vendors give away with watches or watch products, which happened to be red. On a Tiger Concept with applied lume pip at 12, it rubbed red into the pip lume. Just one data point...


i can't say i learned a great many lessons when i was 13, but "stop rubbing it if it turns red" was probably the most important one.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> i can't say i learned a great many lessons when i was 13, but "stop rubbing it if it turns red" was probably the most important one.


I wish I could give this post both the "haha" and the "helpful" reactions...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> @docvail Heavy stuff. I wish you well. That's A LOT all at once. Wow.
> Maybe reach out to try to reconcile with your brother
> (even if he is the one "at fault"). Life is too short.
> Also, I wouldn't give up on a nearly 30 year marriage so fast. Just my thoughts.





Mediocre said:


> Outsider looking in here....
> 
> I re-read his post, and I did not take away that he "gave up on 30 years, so fast". I am sure it is already an uncomfortable subject, best not to jump to conclusions and make statements that could seem insensitive
> 
> Not looking for an argument, just sharing what I would prefer e-people do if I shared something so personal and significant on here.





watchman600 said:


> @Mediocre I didn't make any conclusions.
> I was actually trying to instill a little hope.
> I only meant for my post to be positive.


I'm not about to get into everything that was wrong in my relationship with my wife. Not here, not anywhere. Suffice to say that what's happening was a long time coming, and for the best, all things considered.

As for my brother - we're about 12 years apart in age. I was heading off to college when he was heading off to kindergarten. By the time I got out of the Army, he was heading off to college. He only moved back to the area about five years ago, when he moved into the city, whereas my family lives in the suburbs.

We were never that close, but still, he's my brother (well, half-brother), and I tried. He may have moved back home, but he really never "came back" in the figurative sense. He became who he is during his years away from home, away from our parents, and away from me. That person is someone I could theoretically love as a brother, but not someone I'd choose as a friend. I think the feeling is mutual. 

Two paths diverged in the woods, as the saying goes. We chose different paths. I was born an a-hole of one variety. He chose to be an a-hole of another. There's no sign of future convergence.

The big divide which now exists is the accumulated effect of lots of small divisions aggregating over the years since he graduated from college, culminating in his and his wife's refusal to even be in the same physical space with me and mine, or our sons. Not because of some big blow-up over something, but because of an irreconcilable disagreement over a political issue that I cannot get into here. 

Yes. This is about politics. Welcome to the world where the government's follies divide families.

They have a two-year-old daughter we have yet to meet, and it seems another is now on the way. They're using their children as emotional bargaining chips in what amounts to a protracted hostage negotiation going on within our family. Our parents' time with their grandchildren is limited because of my brother and his wife's insistence that my wife and I and our sons are not seen in the picture.

He's not simply allowing this to happen at his wife's insistence. He's fully on board with it, as our mother is dying of Alzheimer's. Every opportunity for our extended family to get together might be the last one where she'll actually recognize everyone, and every one of those opportunities is being lost. A confluence of stupidity, poor planning, and randomness led to my mom and step-father spending the last winter holidays ALONE, because of my brother and his wife's position on who can associate with whom and when. 

I can forgive any insult or injury against me. Harder to do when it's against my wife or sons. Impossible when it's against my mom. That's a hill I absolutely will die on. 

A previous version of me would have driven to his house, knocked on the door, dragged him out in the yard, and painted the lawn with his a$$. The current version is content to simply consider him "in a coma to me", on his way to being "dead to me".


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## Aquavette (Jul 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm not about to get into everything that was wrong in my relationship with my wife. Not here, not anywhere. Suffice to say that what's happening was a long time coming, and for the best, all things considered.
> 
> As for my brother - we're about 12 years apart in age. I was heading off to college when he was heading off to kindergarten. By the time I got out of the Army, he was heading off to college. He only moved back to the area about five years ago, when he moved into the city, whereas my family lives in the suburbs.
> 
> ...


Heavy stuff, but clearly understood.
Hopeful for the brighter days ahead of you.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

appophylite said:


> Sorry for your troubles that ail you at this time. It's a struggle, especially when all these things can hit at roughly the same time. I remember my similar circumstance a few years ago when my ex wife of 3 years and I filed for divorce. What was a 24 year friendship (33 for our fathers) became a catastrophic blow-out wherein they claimed that everything wrong with the marriage was entirely my fault, and it turned out my ex was just looking to grab as much money out of the divorce as possible (confirmed about 2 years later that she had been cheating on me in our final year of marriage). To add salt to the injury, for reasons outside of anything from the marriage, I became estranged from roughly 50% of my extended family because they were angry at my parents for other reasons, and they decided they'd rather be friends with my ex and in-laws than family with us. The heaviness of the circumstances can get intense.


Yikes. That sucks. Sorry to read all that.

I'm lucky. My wife currently earns more than I do, our younger son only has two years left in high school, and PA is a no-fault divorce state, where most divorces are decided according to set formulas. She could have photos of me doing lines off multiple strippers' butts and it wouldn't alter the outcome in her favor.

We're going through a mediation process, in the hopes of avoiding hiring lawyers and going to court. We're planning on nesting - splitting time between our house, where the kids and the dog will stay, and an apartment - for the next year, with an equitable split of our assets and shared living expenses. 

We just need to get through spring of 2024, when our younger son graduates, and we can go our separate ways entirely.

Less than 2 years. Maybe 20 months. I can do that standing on my head. 

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

watchman600 said:


> @docvail Heavy stuff. I wish you well. That's A LOT all at once. Wow.
> Maybe reach out to try to reconcile with your brother
> (even if he is the one "at fault"). Life is too short.
> Also, I wouldn't give up on a nearly 30 year marriage so fast. Just my thoughts.


From experience, sometimes, enough toxicity is enough toxicity.

I am estranged from over 50 - 60% of my paternal extended family, through no real action of my own, but enough BS that has culminated over the years. Way back when my father was a child (oldest of three siblings with one younger brother and sister apiece), his father built the family home that still stands today. He built it in such a manner that, down the road in the future, the 4 story home could be divided into 4 separate, but joined apartments so that each child would have an apartment for their family, and he and his wife could retire to one apartment for themselves. That way the family would always stay together. There was no legal document that mapped this out before his passing - merely the plan in his mind. When I went back to my parent's home country as a child to live there (4 years), we actually lived there until my parents bought their current house. The house had already been sub-divided in the manner prescribed, and it was determined that this would be the way the final division would be - again, with nothing formal on paper. The first two floors were completely occupied and the two smaller apartments on the next two floors remained empty.

Over the subsequent years before my grandmother's demise some changes happened - my uncle took control of the two upper floor apartments and started renting them out for income. My aunt began an expansion of their apartments in the back courtyard behind the house. Later, my uncle asked my father if he could have 50% of my father's section, which my dad obliged. In this manner, the siblings shifted things around in a manner that was generally agreeable to all.

Things changed when my grandmother passed away. Upon her passing, my father became emotionally invested in the fact that he spent so much time away from the rest of the family that he aquiesced to many things that his siblings wanted without too much question. This came back to bite him a few years later. Over the next couple of years, both his sister and his brother passed away. it was then that he found out that the in-laws completely took over the home and had done everything in their power to edge him out. He still owns a small section of apartments in it (the section his mother lived in before she passed, but renovating it became a pain. All the utilities are in their names, installation of new cable and piping along the exterior requires their approval before anything can be done, and they even tried to block contractors when my mother was there to renovate. It was bad enough that, at one point, I told my mother I could be there in 1.5 days and I would take over the renovations because, quite frankly, I don't play with intimidation and I have zero problems taking a sledgehammer to familial authority. In the end, my father still keeps the apartments as a memory of his father but the relationship with his sibling's spouses and his nephews and nieces is dead. He has blocked all of them on social media and asked my sister and I to do the same. likewise, we lost contact with another large chunk of his side of the family when one of the other patriarch's passed away while my dad was in Russia on business, and the terms of his visa and business there did not allow him to just up and leave for the funeral.

It's easy to say that the bonds of friendship and family should be reconciled over differences, but sometimes, the chance for reconciliation is gone and it doesn't really come back.


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

You can choose your friends.
You cannot choose your blood relatives - they just "Are".
I am somewhat estranged from my younger sister, and I have caught myself... 

_"Did we come from the same parents? Were we raised in different households with different rules? What the Hell?" _

- And I have at times, just made an excuse to leave. It's not that I don't care, it's that I can only stand just so much, before I say "_...what I really think.._." and then the damage is done.

- Anyway....

(Here's a pic of the bezel protector in side view) 











Peace to You All.











- Enjoy your time -- it is....all you really have. Invaluable. Finite.


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## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

docvail said:


> Yikes. That sucks. Sorry to read all that.
> 
> I'm lucky. My wife currently earns more than I do, our younger son only has two years left in high school, and PA is a no-fault divorce state, where most divorces are decided according to set formulas. She could have photos of me doing lines off multiple strippers' butts and it wouldn't alter the outcome in her favor.
> 
> ...


Hear, hear:

In my case, I too divorced in a no-fault state. At the time of marriage, I was the prime earner, and she actually didn't have a job. At the time of divorce, I was laid off and she was bringing in a paycheck. Even though we had no children and had been married less than five years, that didn't stop her from trying to demand 50% of everything I had saved, earned, and built in the 12 years prior to marriage - merely because, in her words, 'she was entitled to it'. That was where we left things in attempting mediation and had to bring in lawyers. Fortunately, in my case, the final decision ended up costing me much less than it would have if I hadn't retained my lawyer.

I'm glad to hear that yours appears to be progressing far more amicably.


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Mine was in Alaska, a "Community Property State" - My attorney (who was about 100 lbs. larger than me - I was about 280...) got Very Nervous and worked hard to calm me down, when he laid it out for me. It was going to cost half of the house I had bought on my own, half of my retirement savings, which at that point were about $450K, and the kids...our two dogs. She wanted the $$$ because for one reason or another she found it hard to keep a job. I knew, and told her, that Uncle Sam was going to step in and snag a bunch of the settlement. In the end, she initially got about $300K, as I 'bought' my half of the house (I already owned - so I thought). 

So, 'bite the bullet' and Get It Done. 

Best thing that could have happened, really, but it took me awhile to get to that point.

After a few years and reflection about what came 'un-wound' - I accepted the facts, accepted personal responsibility for my part of the mistakes, where we both got off the track... But for one reason or another I put off saying that to the ex. I should have. I really did not wish anything bad for her, and we had 13 years together, and 12 of them were good. 

I recently wondered about her family and her as I knew the younger sister had passed at about 46 or 47 from a fast, aggressive cancer that really took her before the doctors and dentists figured it all out. I was on really good terms with all of her family, so I was surprised when my former Mother-In-Law called me one evening and told me....that was about seven years ago. I had heard some things from mutual friends and acquaintances over the years about the ex, and she seemed to have managed to carry on and have a good life. Then in 2017, I moved from the small town we lived in and totally lost track. All water under the bridge...

I just recently checked around and learned that my former wife had died in early 2019 from cancer too. She was only 61 years. Her family, the Nicest Mother-in-Law anyone could have, both brothers-in-law, and twin sister had 'lost me' after we moved out-of-state. So there's that.

As my foreman told me one day, "I got two balls, and neither one's crystal."

Things I wish I had said. Can't go back now... Keep movin' on. 😐


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

#NTHursday

Lume!


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

Floyd and my Scorpene; both life enhancers 🤗


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Snaggletooth said:


> Floyd and my Scorpene; both life enhancers 🤗
> View attachment 16900985


Hoping the best for Lady Poppy today.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Hoping the best for Lady Poppy today.


Back home 🤞🏻


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Snaggletooth said:


> Back home 🤞🏻
> View attachment 16901485


Guard Cat Chonk on duty!


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

Bed buds 😍


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## LawyerGeek (7 mo ago)

Just ordered my first NTH - a Nacken - and found this thread. Quite the length! It will be fun browsing through NTH history.


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

LawyerGeek said:


> Just ordered my first NTH - a Nacken - and found this thread. Quite the length! It will be fun browsing through NTH history.


If you go through the whole thing you will definitely learn a lot, some of it may actually be about watches


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LawyerGeek said:


> Just ordered my first NTH - a Nacken - and found this thread. Quite the length! It will be fun browsing through NTH history.


Thanks for your order. Welcome to the fam!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> If you go through the whole thing you will definitely learn a lot, some of it may actually be about watches


20%, tops.


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## Sloan441 (Jun 4, 2011)

Been a busy week, so not much getting done on time. 

#NTHalldayeveryday:










Not even time to crop this stuff, so a lot of SRT with the Azores.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Doc - It's probably too soon to think about this, but, I have several friends in their late 40s-early50s that went through crushing divorces. They all say now that starting over and feeling that spark with a new person eventually makes it all worthwhile. Like a new lease on life. Hang in there.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Doc - It's probably too soon to think about this, but, I have several friends in their late 40s-early50s that went through crushing divorces. They all say now that starting over and feeling that spark with a new person eventually makes it all worthwhile. Like a new lease on life. Hang in there.


Cool. I was thinking about just committing to celibacy, but maybe we'll give women one last chance...

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

But, in Ranger medic school, you were always sticking it into the guys. Just saying.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> But, in Ranger medic school, you were always sticking it into the guys. Just saying.


Hardly "always". 99% of my job was checking their feet. Once a week we'd get a guy with cellulitis or a spider-bite / scorpion sting. Once, we had a guy with a hemorrhoid the size of a golf ball. One of the more senior medics was _this_ close to performing field surgery by lancing it - in the middle of the goddam swamp - but we talked him out of it, and shuttled the kid back to camp for the PA to handle it.

In 3.5 years there, I think I only ever had to stick 2, possibly 3 guys. I only remember two - one who was dehydrated, and another who attempted suicide by slitting his wrists. Probably the one and only time I got close to "saving a man's life", if you don't count all the drunk buddies I stopped from leaving the club with a sea hag.

Protocol called for getting a core temp on a dehydrated stud (Ranger student), meaning...erm...the thermometer visited a dark place. The kid started crying at the mere prospect. It didn't help that our battalion sergeant major happened to be out in the field that day, and had just grilled the kid on how much water he drank, and - I $hlt you not - the time and color of his last urination. 

"What color is yo' pee?" he said, between drags on his cigar, with no more hesitation than asking the kid if he'd ever had a dog. I stood there dumbfounded. Surely this man had better things to do than interrogate my patient, but...I wasn't going to suggest that to him. 

I made my junior medic take the kid's core temp, while I prepped the IV. Had to. Those ranger students don't bathe for two weeks out in the field. They all smell like a pack of hobos having an orgy in a dumpster.

Not sorry.

This post was E-4 mafia-approved.


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

Snaggletooth said:


> Floyd and my Scorpene; both life enhancers 🤗
> View attachment 16900985
> 
> View attachment 16900982


Is handsome Floyd a greyhound? Special breed those greyhounds . . .


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Antilles and our little onboard pool.










And by "pool" I really mean a container cut in half and stood on its end. Though the engineers have rigged up a fancy pump that circulates the water through the engine cooling system to it heats up to a rather pleasant temperature.


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

johnniecats said:


> Is handsome Floyd a greyhound? Special breed those greyhounds . . .


Thanks for asking. Floyd is a Whippet cross Lurcher; fleet of foot and very good natured (unless you’re a wabbit) and not remotely cross 😀

























The pack - Poppy, Floyd & Sprocket 😍








Like any good Lurcher he’s very fond of a good sofa 🤗
















One of his favourite watches 😍








HAGWE Brohirrim 🤗


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Chris, I am reading your post a week late.
Gawsh ! That's a lot to bear all at once. 
Keeping it short: You know where to reach me if you ever need anything that my paltry ability can provide.


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

Snaggletooth said:


> Thanks for asking. Floyd is a Whippet cross Lurcher; fleet of foot and very good natured (unless you’re a wabbit) and not remotely cross 😀
> View attachment 16905396
> 
> 
> ...


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

Snaggletooth said:


> Thanks for asking. Floyd is a Whippet cross Lurcher; fleet of foot and very good natured (unless you’re a wabbit) and not remotely cross 😀
> View attachment 16905396
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 16907687


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

NTH Swiftsure today. I really like this watch. Colors just pop and it makes me smile each time I wear it.


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Today.... 










A Gray watch for a Gray Day.... 

But yesterday....Wow! 











The days this nice can be rare, so you gotta enjoy them when they come.... 

Enjoy Your Time!


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## SteveU (Feb 24, 2021)

It's on again.


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

It's #twocrowntuesday innit?










-Rusty


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scorpène Blue today.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

It used to be a Docvail watch.










-Rusty


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> It used to be a Docvail watch.
> 
> View attachment 16915217
> 
> ...


Screw you, Rusty.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Screw you, Rusty.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So... someone in the US bought a Watch Gecko Näcken, but wanted to return it. Instead of having the guy ship it back to the UK, they had him ship it to me. 

Turns out it wasn't still "new", so I decided to size the bracelet and wear it as a sample.

I gotta say, I'm really digging the thicker crystal, and even the magnifier. They make it feel like a much more expensive watch, IMO.























Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

A sunny but rough morning in the Mediterranean. Only a couple of more days left in this trip.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday

Better than a San Martin...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

At that price point, SM has nothing 🤣


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

#NTHursday #eightydollarwatchclub











I take terrible close-up photos, so apology in advance; I like San Martin, but San Martin doesn't do this:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh...now I feel like I have to comment.

First - I have nothing against San Martin, or the guys who like them.

My framework for judging other brands' businesses is the same for how I judge my own. If they're delivering a good product, at a fair price, and back it up with reasonably good service when needed, I take no issue with them. From what I can glean, San Martin checks those boxes. 

Bonus points if the brand is doing original designs, and extra-mega-bonus points if the designs are amazing. I put DiRenzo, Aevig, and Visitor in that category.

Second - I have no problem admitting lower-priced watches typically offer better value for money. 

I like to think most people are smart enough to understand diminishing returns well enough to see that a 5% increase in quality is likely to drive a larger-than-5% increase in price. I also hope people can understand, if not appreciate, the little extras and intangibles which are included in the price. 

Running a business with the ability to efficiently (read: cost-effectively and conveniently) support customers worldwide, maintaining high QC standards, offering a 6 year movement guarantee, responding to support requests the same day - that all comes at a higher cost to the business, and thus is built into the price customers pay.

Third - the author of that thread no doubt doesn't realize this, but the "well respected" YouTube reviewer he cited has an axe to grind with me / NTH. 

We sent him a sample for review in early 2020, even though, at the time, he didn't have much of an audience (and it still isn't "large", in comparison to the other YT guys who've reviewed NTH). He probably didn't realize it, but I was doing him a favor, not the other way around. 

As I always do before sending a review sample, I was very clear up front about the expectations, vis-à-vis the timing of when the review would be posted. He agreed to post his review within 2 weeks of receiving the watch, and then return the sample. 

These were his EXACT words in an email exchange before we sent the sample (I haven't edited this in any way): "I have no problems with any of the points below usually 2 weeks is what I would need to product an unboxing and review video... Please let me know how to proceed.."

The watch he reviewed was released in March. He contacted us about doing a review the third week of April. He received the watch before the end of the month. We were expecting to see the review posted (and have the watch returned) by early May, when we still had enough inventory of that model for the review to actually have some value. 

Instead, he posted a short "unboxing" video in early May, plus featured the watch in some other "comparison" videos later that month. But he waited until late June or early July - TWO MONTHS LATER - to post his full review, when we were almost sold out of that model. 

And even at that - he was planning to wait even longer. When I saw his unboxing video, I asked when he'd post the full review (and send the watch back). He didn't really give me a definitive answer. Later that month, when I saw one of the comparison videos, I reached out to point out a couple things he actually got wrong, hoping he'd get them right in the full review (and again ask when that would be posted, since we were well past the 2 week timeline previously discussed).

He only posted the full review when I circled back to him again, late the following month (June), to ask why he hadn't posted it already, reminding him of the expectations he agreed to before we sent the sample. I asked him to return the sample so we could send it to another reviewer who'd been waiting a while. That was when he basically told me that he had his own timeline for doing things, which didn't jive with the timeline we discussed - and which he agreed to - two months earlier.

Again, two months later, these were his EXACT words: "Hey Chris the unboxing was released weeks ago, I usually spread out the videos so they aren't one on top of the other. I have other brands I am reviewing and don't want to saturate my channel with just one watch. The unboxing went up May 9th, another video featuring your watch went up May 13th (microbrand round up) and then yet another on May 21st (microbrand vs Seiko)."

I told him (calmly, and courteously) that if he'd been up front and clear about what he planned to do (rather than apparently lying to me), I wouldn't have sent the sample, and explained the reasons why - by the time the review was posted, according to how he liked to do things, we'd be sold out worldwide. The value of reviews is at its highest when we have the most inventory, and declines as time elapses, as we get closer to being sold out.

That was basically the end of the conversation. I haven't heard from him since. 

It seems odd to me that two years later, he'd go out of his way to bring up NTH in a review of another watch, and that he'd harp on the "value for money" after praising even more-expensive competitors, like Ginault, Longines, Tissot, and Zodiac. 

Like, it's been two years. Why take pot-shots at me and my business now? Why do that at all, ever, if you're a reviewer? What does that say to other brand owners you contact to request a review sample? If I owned a different brand, and saw that, I'd immediately rule him out from consideration as a potential reviewer. He just burned himself with any brand owners who see that.

But, yeah, I'm a big jerk, so...I guess go buy a San Martin, if that's your take on it.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Did you ever try to pitch this to Netflix? Add some drugs/sex/murder/all of it and you have a miniseries!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Did you ever try to pitch this to Netflix? Add some drugs/sex/murder/all of it and you have a miniseries!


I think the correct format is for someone to interview me, and for that person to just be relentless about trying to get me to dish the dirt on all the scoundrels and ne'er do wells I've run across. Have someone animate or have some actors doing a dramatization that I'll narrate over.

"Tell us about [fill in rapscallion's name]...how did that whole mess start?"

"I'd rather not get into it."

"Oh c'mon. It's old news. He did you dirty, didn't he?"

"Oh, fine, then. But fair warning, this is gonna be meandering..."

It does sometimes hit me, how frequently so-called "grown ups" in this industry act like children, and often against their own self-interests. 

I swear, sometimes I feel like one of those cowboys in an old western, just riding through some canyon, when a bullet comes out of nowhere, and ricochets off a nearby rock. "What the hell? Who's shooting at me, and why?"

Sometimes it's a cross-fire. At the very moment I was catching hell from another brand owner over the "Vanguard", my phone blew up with alerts from people directing my attention to that blogger's takedown of Ginault, the one with the implication I was somehow tied to that fake Rolex business.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

By the way...all these stories - 100% true. 

Forum rules prohibit me from posting screen-shots of private exchanges. But for that rule, I'd be bringing the receipts on every one of these. After the first few times I got burned in a public he-said-she-said, I started saving all the communications with anyone I suspected might take their dispute public or otherwise try to set me up for a fall.

I always go back and review the record before commenting publicly. If I said someone did or said something at the time, no matter how long ago, they did or said EXACTLY what I reported.

I'll never understand why these guys go out of their way to pick a fight with me. I mean...with ME? What are they thinking?


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## reeder1 (Feb 10, 2017)

Thanks for sharing that, Chris, and keep making your beautiful watches. When someone is committed to a passion I find it personally inspiring. Not many who are extremely successful in one field or another can get through life without a few personal down times. You are coming to terms with it, as witnessed by your post, and you’ll fix what you can and move on from the rest. You have a lot of respect and love on here, and sometimes that gets us through. All the best, Doc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

reeder1 said:


> Thanks for sharing that, Chris, and keep making your beautiful watches. When someone is committed to a passion I find it personally inspiring. Not many who are extremely successful in one field or another can get through life without a few personal down times. You are coming to terms with it, as witnessed by your post, and you’ll fix what you can and move on from the rest. You have a lot of respect and love on here, and sometimes that gets us through. All the best, Doc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Honestly, I've shared so much here recently, I'm not 100% certain what specifically you're responding to, but I'll take it.

I hope to one day be "extremely successful". For now, I think of myself as "having survived thus far."

There's another guy starting his own brand. He said I inspired him (in so many words), and asked for some advice. I gave him some. Without meaning to, I probably gave him more than he wanted. That is my habit, unfortunately.

Re-reading the advice I gave him, I can't help but realize how fortunate I was that the stars aligned the way they did at the exact moment I needed them to, but also how much work running a business like this entails, much more than most realize, regardless of the stars and how they're aligned. Most fail simply because they don't do what it takes to make it. 

If someone can make a serious go of it, and not step in any bear-traps, my hat's off to them.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I wouldn't have guessed how "issue-loaded" some aspects of this business are, wow.
Edit: since there are so many layers spread out here, I mean the recent business aspects (YT, SM etc). I already know that life is complicated enough.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> I wouldn't have guessed how "issue-loaded" some aspects of this business are, wow.
> Edit: since there are so many layers spread out here, I mean the recent business aspects (YT, SM etc). I already know that life is complicated enough.


It's a strange business, I think.

Then again - I'm not certain my frame of reference is calibrated the same as other people's. When I came out of the military, it was more than a year before I stopped hearing, "Dude, you need to realize you're not in the army any more. Chill out."

It didn't make sense to me that employers and workers in the civilian sector would routinely just let people fail, and not hold anyone accountable, for anything. Even after 10-12 years of immersion in it, I only understood it as a fact of reality, without truly understanding the mindset at work behind the reality.

How do you just let people fail, knowing it's happening? How do you not hold anyone accountable for failing to meet expectations? How do you let someone BS you, repeatedly, and NEVER call them out on it?

That said, while I've encountered strange people with strange tendencies in other fields, the peeps in this one seems stranger still. I think watch collecting as a hobby attracts a disproportionately large sub-set of "those kinds" of people, and as a direct result, the industry has evolved to cater to the idiosyncrasies of the market in the aggregate.

By which I mean - even if 90% of watch geeks are relatively "normal" (compared to the rest of society, which is probably closer to 95%), the industry caters to the 10% who are bat$hlt crazy. That trait can thus also be found in abundance among those "working" within the industry, because nothing attracts crazy like crazy. I say "working" because many of them are doing something that wouldn't qualify as "work" if they worked for me (and most of them wouldn't work for me for very long, before they quit or I bounced them to the curb).

(And before anyone points out how I seem to attract more than my fair share of crazy, don't, because I really don't. I just have a very sensitive early-warning system in place. The warnings are almost constant, but no one's yet breached my perimeter.)

I don't think the combination of self-awareness and emotional intelligence can be found in abundance in very many groups of people organized around anything. Groups of people in general aren't known for their rationality. But it definitely feels to me like the watch industry and watch market are at least one standard deviation to the left side of that bell-curve's center-point.

Throw a guy like me (a guy at least one standard deviation to the left of center on the f**ks-given curve) into a group like that, there's gonna be a degree of friction which occasionally creates some actual flame. If some members of the group are careening around at high-speed, and they randomly bump into me, that "equal and opposite reaction" is going to be noticeable, at least to them.

Someone posted this to IG a few weeks back, and it hit hard for me...


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## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> They make it feel like a much more expensive watch, IMO.


shame on everyone in this thread who read this comment and didn't make a $90 "joke" for 2 whole days.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> shame on everyone in this thread who read this comment and didn't make a $90 "joke" for 2 whole days.


I'll admit to some low-level disappointment.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Off-topic alert!

Does anyone here follow the doings and goings-on in the world of top-ranked competitive chess?

My older son and I have been fascinated by the current scandal involving suspected cheating. But we're both only hearing about it second- and third-hand via various online reporting. I'd be interested to hear the take of someone who's been immersed in that world. 

Do you think Niemann cheated, and if so, how (be careful in your description here, if it involves the dirty stuff)? Is Carlsen just being a sore loser? Is it possible Niemann really is just that good, all of a sudden, to leap from being an also-ran to defeating the top-ranked player?

For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, here's a very brief summary...

Grand Master Magnus Carlsen has been the top-ranked player in the world for some time. In a recent tournament, he broke a 53-game win streak when he lost to the bottom-ranked player in the tournament. He quit the tournament shortly thereafter, without any real explanation. 

However, he tweeted a very brief message, essentially saying he always respected the tournament and looked forward to returning in the future. But in that tweet, he also included a short video (apparently well-known among soccer fans), of some soccer team coach saying something to the effect of, "I can't say anything, because if I do, I'll be in big trouble." The coach in the video was apparently commenting about a loss some felt looked suspicious, as if "the fix was in".

This led to an explosion in speculation that Carlsen suspected Niemann of cheating, somehow. Niemann has admitted to cheating in online games, but vehemently denies he's ever cheated in over-the-board games. 

Then, this past week, the two met again. This time, Carlsen, acting second, quit the match after Niemann's second move. Yes, you read that right, he quit after a total of just three moves. 

Again, he didn't give any reason, but the situation is beyond bizarre. I don't think there's been any top player in living memory to quit a match that quickly.

It seems that in either both or at least the second tournament, Niemann and the other players were all given some sort of search for communications devices they may have hidden somewhere on their bodies. I think I read that other precautions have been taken, such as creating a delay in the broadcast, and restrictions on the live audience.

The combination of suspicion, online speculation, and perhaps inadequate safeguards has led to social media tittering (including from Elon Musk) about vibrating devices which may be inserted into a notorious body cavity, and controlled remotely.

More interesting to me is the theory that Niemann isn't working with any compatriots, but rather that he has devised some way to use AI-based learning programs during the matches. The idea seems to be that he's been able to put together some sort of hidden AI-program interface he can use during the match, yet without detection. Think signal buttons hidden in shoes and operated with the toes, maybe.

My interest in that specific aspect of this story relates to my own game of passion - poker, specifically no-limit hold'em. In recent years, there's been an explosion in the use of "Solver" AI-based programs by top players, especially online players who play an enormous volume of hands. 

They use these solver programs post-game, to analyze memorable hands, and come up with the most game-theory-optimized "line" to take in similar hands in the future. One of the things that stuck out to me as I was reading about these programs is how often the program's suggestions are at odds with most pros would typically recommend. The lines the solvers recommend wouldn't make sense to most players, and if used repeatedly, it might look like the player using them was psychic.

The weakness in the system is that to make the best use of the program, players have to memorize the situations they plug into the programs (to include often making a guess about what cards their opponents may have had in those hands), then memorize the recommendations, which are often a range of tactics dependent on unknown variables, rather than one absolute best. Making the best use of these programs requires a powerful memory.

If a player was able to utilize the program while seated at the table, he'd be nigh-unbeatable, which is one of the reasons why many card-rooms won't let players have their phones out if they're involved in a hand.

Which of course leads me back to Niemann and chess. If poker players have been able to use AI programs and the strength of their own memories to make huge improvements in their games - without resorting to cheating, perhaps chess players can do something similar, by using AI programs to out-think the best human minds, and come up with unconventional tactics for future games.

If this sounds far-fetched, it isn't. Grand Master Gary Kasparov was defeated by a computer program called Deep Blue (no relation to the watch brand) in 1997. In 2017, a Google subsidiary re-purposed an AI program to learn chess. Just four hours later, it won or drew 100 games against the best chess-playing computer program at the time, AlphaGo.

The biggest chess tournaments in the world have 6 or 7 figure prizes. The first tournament Carlsen quit had a $1M prize for the winner. The biggest poker tournaments have 8 figure prizes. The 2019 World Series of Poker main event first prize was $10M. And the top poker players can get lucrative endorsement deals. The incentive to cheat at poker is much higher than it is for chess. Even without cheating, the value of what these AI programs can teach top players is huge.

If that's the explanation, that Niemann has learned unconventional tactics from AI programs, I could understand why Niemann wouldn't want to come forward with it, as it would negate his new-found advantage over previously better players.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Today is a Mack kinda day
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

docvail said:


> Off-topic alert!
> 
> Does anyone here follow the doings and goings-on in the world of top-ranked competitive chess?
> 
> ...



Definitely not immersed in that world, but read about it. Seems... bizarre to say the least. 

Some years ago Google built an AI that was beating the worlds best players at Go, a game that is far more complex than chess if you consider only the possible moves. You know how they say there are more chess openings than grains of sand? Each move in go is something like 1 to the power of 150. That's a ridiculously huge number. For scale, the number of stars in the universe is something like 1 to the 21.

The program did so in the most unconventional way. For ages, go players used a certain strategy almost religiously, something about covering or securing the bottom five rows of the board for yourself. The AI did not do that. Instead, it did something entirely different, as a stragegy comparable to a chess computer that would jump out with the queen right into the first line of the opposing pawns. It was just nuts. And it kept on winning, against the best players in the world.

This marked a complete shift in how the game was played. Grandmasters had to relearn the game from scratch. 

My point is this - in the absence of technical aids hidden on (or, uhm, in) the person, does memorizing situations really constitute cheating? 





(I was looking for a different video that was referencing this one, but I can't find the one I was actually looking for so this will have to do)

At this level, chess players don't think about the game like you and me. Definitely not like me, anyways. They are not better versed in the rules of the game, or think a million moves ahead. They recognize situations and patterns they have encountered before far better than us, and remember what the winning moves were. So - who cares if the game was played by a person or by the most evolved chess computer? We're feeding the AI games, so the AI can make predictions that feed our brains. I would be surprised if he was the only one, really. One million or ten. The incentive is there, the tools are there, and arguably it's what the best players have been doing already.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Definitely not immersed in that world, but read about it. Seems... bizarre to say the least.
> 
> Some years ago Google built an AI that was beating the worlds best players at Go, a game that is far more complex than chess if you consider only the possible moves. You know how they say there are more chess openings than grains of sand? Each move in go is something like 1 to the power of 150. That's a ridiculously huge number. For scale, the number of stars in the universe is something like 1 to the 21.
> 
> ...


Just to explain why I'm talking about this - I'm fascinated by game-theory, and all its myriad applications to games, as well as business and politics. I like the idea that logical analysis can lead to more optimal outcomes.

To answer your question, no, memorizing openings or later sequences of moves in chess is definitively NOT cheating. Just the opposite. The best players have committed many opening sequences to memory. The best openings are typically named after their innovators.

That in and of itself proves that the best players have good memories, at least good enough to memorize many opens, and each open's respective counter. So, if a skilled player with a good memory and time on his hands were to analyze the sequences of moves made by a winning AI program, then, in theory, he might be able to spot some commonalities, and commit the most powerful sequences to memory.

I think that may be what's happened with Niemann. His moves are outside the prescribed "best" openings that all the great masters have, erm, mastered. Just as I wouldn't understand an opponent who dramatically under-bets or over-bets a pot in some poker hands, Carlsen might see what Niemann is doing as being so far outside the realm of established chess gameplay that he believes Niemann is cheating, when in fact all Niemann may be doing is replicating what the AI program has proven works, even though it seems counter-intuitive.

Side note - in the US, card-counting at Blackjack isn't illegal, even though casinos will blacklist anyone they suspect of card-counting. In some jurisdictions, it is illegal. I was recently told a story, over the poker table, from a guy who was backing some friends who were counting cards at a casino in the Bahamas, and got "caught" (they got greedy, which tips off the casino). They found him playing poker, and told him that they had to leave the island, immediately, or they'd all be arrested. They were on a plane and in the air within two hours.

When it comes to poker, I'm still skeptical that the AI programs have the same potential to revolutionize the game. Unlike Chess, where you can see all the pieces, poker is a game of incomplete information, calculating probabilities, deciphering your opponents' tendencies, and psychological manipulation. There are too many variables for me to think even the smartest players with the best memories can reliably absorb and recall all the AI-generated recommendations, while trying to read their opponents and make good decisions in real time. There's a lot of "feel" to the game.

As an example - I recently made what may have been the best lay-down of my poker-playing career. I had a monster hand, Ace-Queen of clubs as my hole cards, on a board (community cards) of King-Queen-Queen with two spades, giving me three queens with an ace "kicker", a very powerful hand. Against two opponents, each holding any two random cards, I was an overwhelming (86%) favorite.

But based on the history I'd mentally recorded on these other two players, and the way the hand played out (opponent one was a maniac, who opened with a raise, then got re-raised by opponent two, who was playing super-tight, and hadn't played a hand in the last hour), I felt strongly that my chances of winning were 0% (literally zero, no card I could catch to win the hand), at worst, to 57.5%, at best. And I had a strong suspicion that one of the most likely scenarios was that one of my opponents (player two) was holding a pair of Kings, making him the best full house possible at that point, giving me a less than a 5% chance of winning (I'd need to catch not one but two of the remaining 3 aces in the deck with the next two cards to be dealt), so I mucked my hand rather than risk my whole chip stack on an extreme long-shot, knowing I'd been out-playing both my opponents to that point, and could only continue to do so if I didn't play and lose that hand.

Before I mucked, I showed my cards to a player who wasn't involved in the hand. After the hand, he told me he thought I made a terrible play, and that he'd have gone all-in with my hand, as he was putting my main opponent, player two, on Ace-Ace, not King-King, based on the strength he was representing before and after the community cards were dealt. That would have made me an 83% favorite to win the hand against him and our third opponent (player one) holding any two random cards (but who was probably holding garbage). If he was right, I cost myself the opportunity to win $500-$1000.

I've been thinking about the hand ever since, and running calculations online for all the most-likely holdings of my two opponents, and I still think I made the right play, even though I was an overwhelming favorite (>80%) to win the hand in two of the three most likely scenarios (player two holding Ace-King, or a pair of Aces, or two Kings). I felt strongly that the one scenario in which I was at a tremendous disadvantage (he's got Kings) was much more likely than either of the other two wherein I was way ahead.

(Even if player 2 did have Ace-Ace, my chances of winning would be 0% if player one was holding King-Queen, giving him queens-full-of-kings - no card in the deck could make me the winning hand. Spiking an Ace to give me queens full of aces, a bigger full-house than player one's, would also make player two an even bigger full house, aces full of queens. If player two had Ace-Ace and player one only had Jack-Ten of spades, player one would have an open-ended straight-flush draw, giving him a ~42% chance of beating my trip-queens and player 2's Ace-Ace. When player one led out with a bet of half the pot, I didn't think he was purely bluffing - although it was a possibility, but more likely had a strong draw to a powerful hand, or, possibly, King-Queen. And I didn't think player two would re-raise player one with just Ace-King. So I figured player two had to be holding Aces or Kings. Kings had me all but drawing dead, and Aces would have me drawing absolutely dead if player one had King-Queen, or at best, make me a 57% favorite to win the hand if player one had a super-draw, holding Jack-Ten of spades. The best possible scenario - player one holding garbage, and player two holding aces, seemed like the least likely possibility. I felt very sure I'd be deep into the danger zone if I continued with the hand.)

My point being - an AI program can't read people's tells, or judge people's tendencies. Only the player operating the program can do that. And unless I run into player two again, and he assured me of what he was actually holding in that hand, I couldn't be certain what to tell the program he had, and thus the program couldn't tell me how to play my hand (I played it conservatively, opting to check my "monster" rather than lead out with a bet, then folded when player one bet half the pot, and player two raised triple that amount).

But chess? Yeah, I think it's entirely possible Niemann might have memorized the best AI-moves, and is using them to dunk on Carlsen.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Off-topic alert!
> 
> Does anyone here follow the doings and goings-on in the world of top-ranked competitive chess?
> 
> ...



I was once a competitive chess player, so I was keenly interested in the very odd headlines of late 

From my experience, if someone is willing to cheat, they do not have boundaries. I too read his statement that he has never cheated "in an over the board match:....Which is essentially confirmation that he has cheated online, presumably more than once. The beauty of competing online over and over against the best competitors in the world is that it can instantly feed their patterns into a computer.....or....."AI". IMO, modern AI for the most part is not really AI. For purposes of chess it tends to be algorithms that focus on patterns (based on a player's history) and calculating the best possible moves.

Is it possible he cheated? Yes. Will we ever know? Not unless he tells us, so probably not. Is it possible he suddenly became that good in a short period of time? Probably. Is it possible he got lucky? That does not really happen at his level, so I doubt it. The miscues would have already been heavily published.

My gut tells me he spent time studying his competition's history, possibly using computers/"AI" prior to the tournament and went in with a game plan.....that worked.


Regarding quitting after 3 moves? I personally believe that was more about being dramatic and proving a point. Unless you had a brain lapse and realized you are on the way to fool's mate, it does not make sense. Even the other "quick checkmates" like scholar's mate can be avoided if realized that early on.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Just to explain why I'm talking about this - I'm fascinated by game-theory, and all its myriad applications to games, as well as business and politics. I like the idea that logical analysis can lead to more optimal outcomes.
> 
> To answer your question, no, memorizing openings or later sequences of moves in chess is definitively NOT cheating. Just the opposite. The best players have committed many opening sequences to memory. The best openings are typically named after their innovators.
> 
> ...


Major difference in poker vs. chess (for purposes of feeding a computer information) is the number of unknown variables.

I would actually expect AI to perform better against the best poker players in the world as opposed to amateurs.....because the best tend to be more aware of the probabilities behind the game and bet accordingly. To a degree, they become MORE predictable than amateurs who are going to be much more inconsistent. 

A computer cannot account for a random player getting bored after 3 hours and going all-in on a pair of 8's. It can account for a top ranked pro that takes a very similar approach every time they get a pair of pocket aces.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Even without cheating, the value of what these AI programs can teach top players is huge.
> 
> If that's the explanation, that Niemann has learned unconventional tactics from AI programs, I could understand why Niemann wouldn't want to come forward with it, as it would negate his new-found advantage over previously better players.


See this is the interesting question... is there a direct communication link to the AI solver and the human is just a puppet executing the moves, or did the AI solver just act as a teacher and the human player learned new strategies? It's a very crucial question, because afaik there is no rule - and fundamentally can't be - that says that chess players can only learn strategies from other human players. That would be absurd; and - heck - I'm pretty certain that chess tactics have already been changing for years in light of AI tactics. I don't believe for a second that top level chess players haven't already spent years analyzing and learning from AI vs. Human and AI vs. AI games. The Gary Kasparov vs. IBM Deep Blue games were long, long ago and everyone playing chess has watched those games and analyzed them. Guaranteed. So I don't think Niemann would have some groundbreaking advantage here if it was "I learned tactics from AI" - because it's not a new concept.

But then again.. Suppose you learned a lot of AI-generated tactics and made conscious choice to use mostly those in your game and not use the classic, traditional tactics. Would that give you enough of an edge? And more to the point, would it make your opponent believe they are playing against an AI instead of a human with an unconventional strategy?

There was a video-podcast interview between Lex Fridman (interviewer, popular on youtube) and Andrea & Alexandra Botez (well-known chess players in their own right). In one part of the interview, they remarked how human players usually have more predictable moves while playing, and more of a preference for "classic" opening moves; while AI will tend to have more random-seeming moves - including non-event moves that just flip a piece back and forth - and especially opening movesets. So in some ways, that could be a weak "tell" if someone is playing an AI or not, but it's certainly nothing definitive. But then again, quitting a game three moves in seems less like noticing a "tell" and more like a pre-decided act of protest.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

This whole chess story boils down to, inmho, how far is man willing to go to win fame and fortune? 

Would you be willing to shove something in your Exit Only to win your competition of choice? 

I wouldn't. I guess I'm not dedicated enough.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

TheBearded said:


> This whole chess story boils down to, inmho, how far is man willing to go to win fame and fortune?
> 
> Would you be willing to shove something in your Exit Only to win your competition of choice?
> 
> I wouldn't. I guess I'm not dedicated enough.


What about winning a $1M prize?


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> What about winning a $1M prize?


Exit. 
Only.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I was once a competitive chess player, so I was keenly interested in the very odd headlines of late
> 
> From my experience, if someone is willing to cheat, they do not have boundaries. I too read his statement that he has never cheated "in an over the board match:....Which is essentially confirmation that he has cheated online, presumably more than once. The beauty of competing online over and over against the best competitors in the world is that it can instantly feed their patterns into a computer.....or....."AI". IMO, modern AI for the most part is not really AI. For purposes of chess it tends to be algorithms that focus on patterns (based on a player's history) and calculating the best possible moves.
> 
> ...


Niemann has openly admitted he's cheated in online matches, which is part of why so many suspect him of cheating now.

It just seems odd to me that he'd rise to the top so quickly if all he was doing was analyzing his opponents' play to find a solid counter. It seems more likely that he's simply memorized unconventional sequences generated by the AI programs.

That is, assuming he isn't simply cheating, somehow.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Major difference in poker vs. chess (for purposes of feeding a computer information) is the number of unknown variables.
> 
> I would actually expect AI to perform better against the best poker players in the world as opposed to amateurs.....because the best tend to be more aware of the probabilities behind the game and bet accordingly. To a degree, they become MORE predictable than amateurs who are going to be much more inconsistent.
> 
> A computer cannot account for a random player getting bored after 3 hours and going all-in on a pair of 8's. It can account for a top ranked pro that takes a very similar approach every time they get a pair of pocket aces.


Absolutely. I stream a lot of poker tournaments, mostly for the commentator analysis. Frequently we see pros make mistakes against talented amateurs whose moves don't make sense when pros are used to playing against other pros. Amateurs' gameplay tends to be less logical, more random, or at least, sub-optimal, from a game theory standpoint.

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> See this is the interesting question... is there a direct communication link to the AI solver and the human is just a puppet executing the moves, or did the AI solver just act as a teacher and the human player learned new strategies? It's a very crucial question, because afaik there is no rule - and fundamentally can't be - that says that chess players can only learn strategies from other human players. That would be absurd; and - heck - I'm pretty certain that chess tactics have already been changing for years in light of AI tactics. I don't believe for a second that top level chess players haven't already spent years analyzing and learning from AI vs. Human and AI vs. AI games. The Gary Kasparov vs. IBM Deep Blue games were long, long ago and everyone playing chess has watched those games and analyzed them. Guaranteed. So I don't think Niemann would have some groundbreaking advantage here if it was "I learned tactics from AI" - because it's not a new concept.
> 
> But then again.. Suppose you learned a lot of AI-generated tactics and made conscious choice to use mostly those in your game and not use the classic, traditional tactics. Would that give you enough of an edge? And more to the point, would it make your opponent believe they are playing against an AI instead of a human with an unconventional strategy?
> 
> There was a video-podcast interview between Lex Fridman (interviewer, popular on youtube) and Andrea & Alexandra Botez (well-known chess players in their own right). In one part of the interview, they remarked how human players usually have more predictable moves while playing, and more of a preference for "classic" opening moves; while AI will tend to have more random-seeming moves - including non-event moves that just flip a piece back and forth - and especially opening movesets. So in some ways, that could be a weak "tell" if someone is playing an AI or not, but it's certainly nothing definitive. But then again, quitting a game three moves in seems less like noticing a "tell" and more like a pre-decided act of protest.


Agreed. I think it's possible Niemann might be cheating, but that isn't the only possibility. He might simply be confounding his opponents by using non traditional openings and tactics, based on his analysis of AI games.

Then again, one would think he wouldn't be the first or only one to do that. So perhaps he's got a uniquely strong ability to analyze and memorize.

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> This whole chess story boils down to, inmho, how far is man willing to go to win fame and fortune?
> 
> Would you be willing to shove something in your Exit Only to win your competition of choice?
> 
> I wouldn't. I guess I'm not dedicated enough.


I've imagined how awesome it would be to be able to know for certain what cards my poker opponents were holding. I'd be virtually unbeatable. But I think the money won wouldn't be able to completely offset the lack of pride which comes from winning honestly. 

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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Niemann has openly admitted he's cheated in online matches, which is part of why so many suspect him of cheating now.
> 
> It just seems odd to me that he'd rise to the top so quickly if all he was doing was analyzing his opponents' play to find a solid counter. It seems more likely that he's simply memorized unconventional sequences generated by the AI programs.
> 
> ...


We are saying the same thing. My thought is that he has analyzed how AI has instructed him to counter specific opponents. With the memory of top chess players, it is believable


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Absolutely. I stream a lot of poker tournaments, mostly for the commentator analysis. Frequently we see pros make mistakes against talented amateurs whose moves don't make sense when pros are used to playing against other pros. Amateurs' gameplay tends to be lesa logical, more random, or at least, sub-optimal, from a game theory standpoint.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Game theory....a rabbit hole I can get lost in


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I've imagined how awesome it would be to be able to know for certain what cards my poker opponents were holding. I'd be virtually unbeatable. But I think the money won wouldn't be able to completely offset the lack of pride which comes from winning honestly.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Anyone that used the mentioned approach likely would be a person that is not driven by the emotion of winning honestly. Probably a highly literal soul more excited by proving AI over humanity.....or someone that loved the thrill of dirty pool growing up LOL


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> I've imagined how awesome it would be to be able to know for certain what cards my poker opponents were holding. I'd be virtually unbeatable. But I think the money won wouldn't be able to completely offset the lack of pride which comes from winning honestly.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


For many, Money will always outweigh Pride. 

I'm on the Pride side of the fence. Everything I have, I have honestly. I worked for it. I earned it. Which makes me proud of it.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Anyone that used the mentioned approach likely would be a person that is not driven by the emotion of winning honestly. Probably a highly literal soul more excited by proving AI over humanity.....or someone that loved the thrill of dirty pool growing up LOL


Well...maybe yes, maybe no, when it comes to poker.

Poker players are constantly trying to out "level" their opponents (thinking what he's thinking I'm thinking he's thinking I'm thinking...), but also trying to optimize their betting actions based on opponents' likely holdings (their "range"), and their tendencies.

It's the bet sizing, or "line" to take in a hand, and the evolution of what constitutes the playable range which seems to be the focus of the Poker solver programs. I think we have to ask if learning from those programs and committing the tactics to memory is morally different than me devouring all the books about poker theory.

Using such a program during the course of a game is clearly cheating, but learning from one before and after a game wouldn't seem to be.

There was a terrible movie with Nic Cage, I think it was called "Next". The premise is he can see 30 seconds into the future, but unlike most "I can see the future but I'm powerless to stop it" narratives, he's able to avoid disaster by altering his actions. 

Of course, he plays poker. But since he knows the outcomes before he acts, he can't lose, and thus doesn't enjoy playing. For him it's just a way to make money.

So, if I had that power, I'd probably play just to win money, but I think I'd get bored pretty quickly. It'd be no more exciting than pushing buttons on a machine.

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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> Agreed. I think it's possible Niemann might be cheating, but that isn't the only possibility. He might simply be confounding his opponents by using non traditional openings and tactics, based on his analysis of AI games


There was a piece about an AI playing go, and the entire documentary and commentary went nuts about that one move a human wouldn't have made. If I understood correctly, the algorithm chose to fight for something less obvious than a human would have gone for, and it worked.
Point is, humans have a certain "standard approach" and anything brushing against this is either considered as genius or foolish - and if it works, the "victims" may show a tendency to call shenanigans.

I know nothing about chess, aside from what Dee taught me in The Wire.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Frequently we see pros make mistakes against talented amateurs whose moves don't make sense when pros are used to playing against other pros. Amateurs' gameplay tends to be lesa logical, more random, or at least, sub-optimal, from a game theory standpoint.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I'm no longer invited to my friend's annual birthday poker game, for this very reason.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I'm no longer invited to my friend's annual birthday poker game, for this very reason.


Years ago, I hosted a low stakes home game semi-frequently. A neighbor got himself off the invite list for "wrecking the game" by not playing "the right way". In retrospect, the stakes were just too low for anyone not serious about poker to play "correctly". We were playing poker, but he was just gambling. 

It's why I appreciate the transition from local casinos spreading $1-$2 games to $1-$3 games. It wouldn't seem like much of a difference, but the slightly higher stakes does tend to lessen the level of "gambling" vs just playing.

Back to Chess and Niemann... he's only 19. I wonder if his youth might be a factor in people's suspicions. My gut tells me a brash young upstart might be more inclined to risk the reputational damage than a more mature person, who might have more respect for the institution of the game.

It's sort of that way with poker. The younger players don't seem to put much thought into their appearance in televised events, or show the old guard much respect.

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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Time for a watch picture….


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> For many, Money will always outweigh Pride.
> 
> I'm on the Pride side of the fence. Everything I have, I have honestly. I worked for it. I earned it. Which makes me proud of it.


See...there again...

This past spring, I stumbled my way into a local home-game tournament circuit in my town. The guy who invited me, and who has hosted twice, has more than once bragged to me that he's "the top ranked player" in our town. He clearly takes a lot of pride in that fact.

I've been seated at the same table with him once. In a cash game, I'd take all his money, and everyone else's. But the way these tournaments are structured - very "shallow" starting chip stacks, and very short levels before the blind bets go up in value - does a lot to level the playing field and reduce the value of players' skill.

So far, I've played in four of these tournaments, and won the biggest one, the "championship", against a field of 23 other players. The other three, ranging from 9 to 11 players, I've been knocked out early, in one of the first three levels.

I'm not really a tournament player. I've played in a grand total of 7 tournaments, and won 2 of them. That's not bad. Two of the seven were large tournaments run by casinos. The other five were all small, 9 to 24 players. The two I won were both 24-player events. I crush those. Winning 2 out of the 5 small tournaments I've played seems like a pretty good record.

After the first tournament I played with these guys, I quickly deduced the best overall strategy - I play hyper-aggressively in the early levels, trying to build a big chip stack as the blinds are going up rapidly, so that I can go deep into the tournament, when I can then start playing my style of game, and give myself the best chance of winning. That hyper-aggressive, "maniac" style of play invariably results in one of two outcomes - building a big chip stack, or going broke, quickly.

After each tournament, the host will email everyone a summary. I've gotten a good bit of ribbing about how often I get knocked out early from the other players, who know I take the game seriously, and that I'm super-competitive about it. It's all in good fun, but I'm not naive. There's a certain pleasure they take in seeing a more skilled player crash and burn in spectacular fashion.

I haven't responded this way to any of them, but if any of them asked me, I'd tell them I don't play for bragging rights, or to be the top-ranked player in our little town. I play for MONEY.*

The best players in the world judge themselves by their hourly rate - how much they make for every hour playing poker. The best player is the one with the highest hourly rate, period. Most of the guys giving me a hard time about getting knocked out early probably have a negative hourly rate. It's just basic math - in most of their tournaments, only the overall winner wins any money. In the bigger tournaments they do, they might pay out the top three finishers.

I've calculated my rate as $70 / hour in their tournaments. I've invested $180 to play in four tournaments, and won $600 in the championship, after about 6 hours of total playing time in all four events ($420 profit / 6 hours playing = $70 hourly). I doubt any of them, even the top-ranked guy, has a rate that high. The risk of getting knocked out early is part of the formula - the more money I win, and the less time I play, the higher my hourly rate.

Playing well for three hours, just to finish out of the money - that's a disaster, in my view. I'd rather get knocked out first if I'm going to finish out of the money, then go home and watch TV for the rest of the evening. Finishing fourth out of 24, when only the top three get paid? No thanks. Like Ricky Bobby said, if you ain't first, you're last.

So...yeah, pride is nice, but no one ever bought groceries with pride. I want both. Money won is just the measuring stick to determine how much the pride is worth.

*In season 9 of the World Poker Tour, an amateur named Andy Frankenberger came out of nowhere to win one of the bigger tournaments of the season, and finished high in a few others, ultimately being named Player of the Year (a distinction earned with points accrued from WPT tournament finishes - not a subjective evaluation like boxer rankings).

When they gave him the trophy, someone with a mic asked him a typical poker-player question, "Andy, it seems like a lot of the pros didn't think much of you or your skills this season, but here you are. Do you think you've earned their respect now that you're player of the year?"

Andy had the stupidest answer ever, "Well, I think I've shown I deserve it with my play, so I hope I have their respect."

If it were me, I hope I'd have the presence of mind to state the obvious: "I don't play for respect. I play for MONEY!"


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

I just became aware of the dual function elapsed time/countdown bezel on “The Mack”.

I don’t know if I’ve ever seen one like it. Is this something that was just dreamed up at NTH, or have I just been blind to this design in other watches?


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Major difference in poker vs. chess (for purposes of feeding a computer information) is the number of unknown variables.





Mediocre said:


> IMO, modern AI for the most part is not really AI. For purposes of chess it tends to be algorithms that focus on patterns (based on a player's history) and calculating the best possible moves.





X2-Elijah said:


> I don't believe for a second that top level chess players haven't already spent years analyzing and learning from AI vs. Human and AI vs. AI games. The Gary Kasparov vs. IBM Deep Blue games were long, long ago and everyone playing chess has watched those games and analyzed them. Guaranteed. So I don't think Niemann would have some groundbreaking advantage here if it was "I learned tactics from AI" - because it's not a new concept.
> 
> But then again.. Suppose you learned a lot of AI-generated tactics and made conscious choice to use mostly those in your game and not use the classic, traditional tactics. Would that give you enough of an edge? And more to the point, would it make your opponent believe they are playing against an AI instead of a human with an unconventional strategy?


Deep Blue didn't "solve" chess just because it beat the best ranked human player at the time. Both chess programs and chess players (probably directly as a result) changed and got "better". Chess is not a solvable game, and either is poker or go. But it is possible to find ever better strategies to respond to a given situation, regardless of application.



Spoiler: feel free to ignore this section - though it might be helpful to understand why I think what I think



I work as a software engineer, not in the AI field but I have a few pet projects that use AI techniques, specifically pattern recognition. I am not an expert at all, but I keep up to date and have a few friends who have PhDs in the field with whom I talk about these things quite a bit. I quoted those messages because I think there is a hidden misconception about what AI can do and how we interact with it.

I'll use an example from a different domain because it illustrates my points much easier. Because it uses illustrations.

A couple of years ago, an AI that was able to generate images from a few words made headlines. This is something that it produced:










Yea, I can see an overgrown castle in there. But it also very clearly doesn't look photorealistic, or even convincing as a piece of abstract art. 

Now compare it to this generated image that just won a fine art prize










Clearly a massive advancement in the field of computer generated art. Much more like something a human artist would paint.

This advancement is (probably) due to the extensive use of a technique called Generative-Adversarial Networks. 

The short explanation is that you pit two AIs against each other. One to generate images, and the other AI, the adversary, tries to determine whether the artwork it is presented with is human or computer made. The key is that these two AIs influence (train) each other. The more convincing the generated art becomes, the better the adversary gets at recognizing it, creating a positive feedback loop that leads to more and more convincingly human looking art being generated.

The most striking example in my opinion is this art 'extender' AI:










It is able to use an existing artwork to capture an artists unique style and use that to make a larger version of the original work that perfectly blends with the original.

The point is this - A chess computer like Deep Blue would be utterly obliterated by a half decent chess AI. Deep Blue was still mostly human programmed. Modern AIs are not as much programmed as they are trained on vast sets of data.
Two chess AIs playing against each other, billions of games, training each other, each learning from each other could in short order complete upset the way we understand the game is played. They would be able come up with strategies that are non-obvious, counter moves in ways that make no sense to us, because their "understanding" of the game is fundamentally different from our own.

The same is true for any other game, I believe. Even in a game with billions of potential moves, basic statistics can weed out 90% of them, because they make no sense within the rule set of the game. The human factor, for example the players propensity for risk taking, can be accounted for, again, with statistics. I don't believe it is much of a factor. And even if it was, if the AI played billions of hands of poker, it is sure to have encountered and learned from both aggressive and defensive players.



Saying that he never cheated in person, only in online games sounds like he was testing out those strategies, have the AI tell him what to do, to evaluate the effectiveness before memorizing them and potentially using them in a real world game


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeBanzai said:


> I just became aware of the dual function elapsed time/countdown bezel on “The Mack”.
> 
> I don’t know if I’ve ever seen one like it. Is this something that was just dreamed up at NTH, or have I just been blind to this design in other watches?
> 
> View attachment 16922773


We did it first on the Azores. I think Aaron (part of our design team) thought it up, but he may have seen it somewhere else before.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> ...Saying that he never cheated in person, only in online games sounds like he was testing out those strategies, have the AI tell him what to do, to evaluate the effectiveness before memorizing them and potentially using them in a real world game


Huh. When I read his admission, my first thought was that he wasn't playing alone, but rather had compatriots assisting him in some way.

The more I think about the current controversy, the more likely I think it is that Niemann did NOT cheat, but rather is demonstrating a younger, more tech-savvy player's ability to use technology to develop superior playing skills at hyper-speed.

Again, it's been that way in Poker, since online poker was re-introduced / definitively legalized in the US in 2013. There's been an explosion of young, aggressive and creative players changing the way the game is played. 

In a live, 9-handed game, a player might see as many as 35 hands per hour, but 25 is about average. But in online poker, where a player who folds his hand can be instantly "moved" to a new table as a new hand is about to be dealt, and players will often "multi-table", players can play tens of thousands of hands before they're even old enough to legally play in a casino.

I often find the most dangerous players are the ones who've amassed a lot of experience playing online. I recently got my a$$ handed to me by an old lady who told us she spent all her time during the pandemic lockdowns playing online.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Huh. When I read his admission, my first thought was that he wasn't playing alone, but rather had compatriots assisting him in some way.
> 
> The more I think about the current controversy, the more likely I think it is that Niemann did NOT cheat, but rather is demonstrating a younger, more tech-savvy player's ability to use technology to develop superior playing skills at hyper-speed.
> 
> ...


I think that's what's pissing people off - that he's developed not superior _skills_, but a way of playing that's leading to more _wins_ by removing some of the advantage that skill used to provide.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I think that's what's pissing people off - that he's developed not superior _skills_, but a way of playing that's leading to more _wins_ by removing some of the advantage that skill used to provide.


How is that not skill though? It's a mental game, and he's learned a better way to play. That's what makes for skill in a mental game, no?

The young guns of poker aren't unskilled players employing tricks. They're utilizing advanced tactics proven to work through millions of iterations of trial and error.

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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> How is that not skill though? It's a mental game, and he's learned a better way to play. That's what makes for skill in a mental game, no?
> 
> The young guns of poker aren't unskilled players employing tricks. They're utilizing advanced tactics proven to work through millions of iterations of trial and error.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I should have used quotes instead of italics, maybe. The skill being used to win appears to be confounding the other player, instead of skill at the game itself. Not saying it's wrong, just that it makes sense why the other guy is so mad about it. It's subverting the entire game.

EDIT: I'm just thinking out loud like I would in my living room. I don't know anything about the chess world or the scandal except what I've read here. But, I came across this article after googling just now and it's an interesting--and some what coincidental--analysis given the parallels you drew to poker: Chess Is Just Poker Now


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

The poker analogy is interesting, as the use of sophisticated engines has turned chess into poker, in a way. What used to be a game of intuition has largely become one of memorization, as the player memorizes the lines the engine develops vis his opponent. Now, knowing that, players will sometimes resort to the “sub-optimum” line - not a bad one - but the one that they know through their own engine analysis, that the engine discarded for being, say, 4th best, hoping that the other player hasn’t memorized that line. It’s like bluffing about your hand.

It’s all quite sad though. Humans playing as proxies for computer engines.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeBanzai said:


> The poker analogy is interesting, as the use of sophisticated engines has turned chess into poker, in a way. What used to be a game of intuition has largely become one of memorization, as the player memorizes the lines the engine develops vis his opponent. Now, knowing that, players will sometimes resort to the “sub-optimum” line - not a bad one - but the one that they know through their own engine analysis, that the engine discarded for being, say, 4th best, hoping that the other player hasn’t memorized that line. It’s like bluffing about your hand.
> 
> It’s all quite sad though. Humans playing as proxies for computer engines.


Indeed.

When I play, I'll sometimes deviate from what I know to be the "correct" move, in the hopes it will lead to one or more of my opponents making a costly mistake.

The link near the bottom of that Atlantic article leads to another article about the many accusations of rampant cheating in high-stakes online poker. One of the people quoted insisted that a review of his online play would reveal how often his game isn't game-theory-optimal, and thus proves he wasn't cheating by using any sort of AI assistance.

But with poker or chess, it clearly would be easier to actively cheat when playing online, versus live games. While the players employing memorized AI-derived tactics in live games may not be cheating, technically, it does remove a lot of the romance of the game. In a weird way, it makes me feel better about playing low-stakes, where the likelihood of encountering such a player is minimal.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Indeed.
> 
> When I play, I'll sometimes deviate from what I know to be the "correct" move, in the hopes it will lead to one or more of my opponents making a costly mistake.


That’s what bad players always say. They made that questionable move “on purpose”.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeBanzai said:


> That’s what bad players always say. They made that questionable move “on purpose”.


It's funny -

If a player takes the most optimal line in a hand, and loses, it's understood that his opponent just got lucky. But when a player takes a less optimal line in a hand, it creates endless debate about the logic employed, and whether or not the line made sense, often regardless of the outcome, win or lose.

One hand sticks out in my mind. Short version, the guy widely viewed as the world's best player, Phil Ivey, bet the second-best hand, three times, when his opponent, a semi-pro from Germany limp-called pre-flop, then checked to Phil on all three streets, and called when Phil bet.

Phil had Jack-9, with a Jack being the highest card on the board, making him a pair of Jacks, with a 9 kicker. His opponent had Queen-Jack, a pair of Jacks with a Queen - the better hand.

The analyst doing live commentary insisted that Phil should have checked back the last time, rather than betting. Since he'd been called twice already, he knew he'd most likely get called a third time, but should have known his opponent easily could have had a stronger hand than the one Phil had. In his analysis, Phil effectively turned a reasonable-strength hand with some showdown value into a pure bluff.

But the post-hand analysis by another commentator differed. He insisted that most pros would have raised with Jack-Ten or better pre-flop in a short-handed game, and because the German didn't, Phil's line wasn't "incorrect", even if it ultimately proved to be wrong. To prove his point, the analyst pointed out Phil's expression of surprise when the German turned over the winning hand. That showed Phil was certain his hand was best until that moment.

I've thought about that a lot since seeing the hand play out. The post-hand analysis assumes that Phil assumed all his opponents would take the optimal line, and raise pre-flop with Jack-Ten or better in a short-handed game. Phil may be the best in the world, but if so, I think he should have been good enough to realize that not all his opponents would play a hand the same way he would, which is to say, taking the most optimal line. 

I think he should have checked back at the end, realizing he was probably beat by an opponent doing the wrong thing on purpose. After all, he's the best player in the world.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH x Watch Gecko Näcken today.









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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’ve gone all in on 7-2 off suit, with a 7 and a 2 on the flop, with a third 2 on the river. 

I’m terrible at poker, but that was the best moment I’ve participated in, just to see the veins popping on the guys that were definitely far more skilled. They lectured me on how you never play the 7-2 hand…

And yet, the pot was mine…

Beat a pair of aces.



Retired right after that.. which pissed them off even more.. 


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I’ve gone all in on 7-2 off suit, with a 7 and a 2 on the flop, with a third 2 on the river.
> 
> I’m terrible at poker, but that was the best moment I’ve participated in, just to see the veins popping on the guys that were definitely far more skilled. They lectured me on how you never play the 7-2 hand…
> 
> ...


I'll raise pre-flop with 7-2 off-suit occasionally, perhaps once every 8 sessions. When I do, I always show the hand, even if my opponents fold, just to advertise that I'm capable of making a wild bluff, in the hopes they'll call my value bets with weaker hands more often.

It can be scary. The last time I did it, two people called me, and I had to fire an even bigger bet on the flop to make them fold. It's a stupid play that rarely pays off, but that's the point - getting opponents to think I can make stupid / crazy plays, so they always suspect me of larceny.

It may sound counter-intuitive to most, but the truth is that with poker, most of the money is made when opponents call your value-bets with worse hands, not when your bluffs work and opponents fold. The best players make their opponents think they're bluffing much more often than they really are.

It's the Phil Helmuth philosophy of bluff, bluff, bluff, then show them the nuts. As soon as I'm sure my opponents have me pegged as a bluffing machine, I stop bluffing and value-bet them to death. They never fail to look shocked when they call me the whole way and I show them a monster.

Also...I think the local guys are starting to figure out what I've been up to...









I need to start making my raises smaller against these guys. I think I'm risking too much, when they'd probably fold to a smaller bet. I've been sizing my bets the same way I do in cash games, which is too large for these shallow-stack tournaments.

In that game last week, I was running over the table for the first two levels, and built up a big stack, preparing to make my final assault. If I can get past the third level with a big stack, I'll typically be in good shape for the late stages of the tournament.

Then I raised with Jack-Ten pre-flop, and ran head-first into King-Ten. My opponent (Dennis, the guy who ended up winning the game) and I both flopped top pair, and he turned top two when a King hit the turn.

With a possible flush draw and straight draw on the board, I felt I had to bet my hand on the turn, and checked the river when the flush and straight draws didn't get there, hoping Dennis would check back with a busted draw, perhaps holding a hand like Ace-high, hoping it would be good enough.

Instead, he made a big bet, and I called, thinking he was just trying to steal the pot with a busted draw, because I showed weakness by checking the river, possibly indicating I was also on a draw.

I thought about folding, but the bet was too small in relation to the pot, and the pot was too large in relation to my stack size. Winning the pot would set me up for success with a huge stack. Losing or folding would leave me crippled.

In retrospect, I should have been more scared when he called my flop bet. I should have checked the turn, and possibly folded if he bet, as that would have saved me from having to call his big river bet. Once I bet the turn, it made the pot so large, I felt I had to call the river.

I was out of the game two hands later, when I raised all-in pre-flop with my short stack and 9-8 suited, and got called by Ace-King off suit.

Like I always say, poker is a cruel mistress.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

docvail said:


> We did it first on the Azores. I think Aaron (part of our design team) thought it up, but he may have seen it somewhere else before.
> View attachment 16924112


It's a cool concept, and it would fit the Scorpene's aviation-style looks really nicely, particularly if it was bi-directional rather than one direction like a dive watch.

I know. Everyone has ideas. But that's mine.


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## juskiewrx (Mar 23, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574482694406565888


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

juskiewrx said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574482694406565888


The stakes just got higher.

If it can be proven that Niemann didn't cheat, Carlsen is going to look like a buffoon. If it can be proven that Niemann did cheat, Carlsen will be vindicated, virtually unquestionable in the future, and the game's authorities will have to take greater measures to stop cheating.

I remain fascinated by the whole story. Is it possible Niemann was so well-prepared for their match that he was completely relaxed while facing the world's top-ranked player, or is it more likely that Carlsen simply couldn't tell if Niemann was concentrating or not, and as a result, saw what his mind tricked him into seeing?

I hate cheaters. If Niemann has been cheating, I hope he gets exposed. I also hate prima donnas. If Carlsen just can't stand being beaten by someone who's evolved into a better player, I hope public sentiment turns against him.

I suspect these events will be talked about for decades to come. Poker may be more popular than Chess, but Chess remains more respected, and thus more consequential. Very few people outside the poker community talk about the many allegations of online cheating. I've yet to see those stories talked about by the mainstream media. But this Chess story is gaining momentum.

There's talk in the poker community, about creating a black-list of people who get caught cheating online. As it stands, apparently the online gaming sites simply ban the cheaters, without publicly outing them, and unless I'm mistaken, without making any attempt to make the cheaters' victims whole, by seizing the cheaters' account balances and distributing them appropriately to the victims.

I don't know about Chess, but there's an enormous industry built around Poker. A scandal of this magnitude could be disastrous for a lot of people invested in the popularity of the game.

I recently heard a story about Phil Ivey, who, along with a compatriot, discovered a defect in Baccarat cards produced by a certain manufacturer, such that someone who knew of the defect could gain an advantage by way of knowing what some of the cards were just by looking at their backs. The two of them went around playing at nose-bleed stakes, taking millions off the casinos.









Poker Champ Phil Ivey Beat the Casinos but Got Sued for Over $15 Million in the Process


Phil Ivey gambles for a living so it's no surprise he's won big at the casino a few times. However, a controversial series of wins landed Ivey in hot water.




www.sportscasting.com













The Phil Ivey Baccarat Saga Gets The Harvard Treatment


A paper in the Harvard Journal of Sports and Entertainment Law wonders what defines cheating, and what the future of advantage play holds.



sportshandle.com





When the casinos figured out what was going on, they sued Ivey and his partner. Technically, they hadn't "cheated", but Ivey was smart enough to realize he'd be banned from playing in every casino around the world if he didn't come to some agreement with them. So, he did, and gave back most of the money they'd won.

But, he's Phil Ivey, the greatest player in the world, and he's still young, with decades of playing ahead of him. He understands the repercussions of a lifetime ban from all casinos. It would kill his ability to continue profiting from the game. I don't think the younger, less talented players accused of online cheating are as likely to think about the long term or the greater good.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

captainmorbid said:


> I’ve gone all in on 7-2 off suit, with a 7 and a 2 on the flop, with a third 2 on the river.
> 
> I’m terrible at poker, but that was the best moment I’ve participated in, just to see the veins popping on the guys that were definitely far more skilled. They lectured me on how you never play the 7-2 hand…
> 
> ...


You wanna talk stupid luck and unbelievable odds(I just Googled it, 1:11.26mil, or .00000008%)?

"Friendly" game, years and years ago. I'm dealt rockets, guy across from me, cowboys.

After all the bets were made and the river card fell, laid out was K,A,K,9,A. 

I've never seen someone flip out more at a low stakes game.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> You wanna talk stupid luck and unbelievable odds(I just Googled it, 1:11.26mil, or .00000008%)?
> 
> "Friendly" game, years and years ago. I'm dealt rockets, guy across from me, cowboys.
> 
> ...


That's called a bad beat.

The card rooms in the casinos often have progressive bad beat jackpots, which pay out when that happens.

One hit as I was playing this past Friday night, for about $250k. It was a 9 high straight flush over quad 7's.

The "loser" of the hand takes 40% of the jackpot ($100k), the winner 20% ($50k), and the remaining players at the table split the remaining 40% .

That means that even the guys who were just sitting there, not involved in the hand, each got over $14k.

Yes, they were celebrating when it happened.

I've won the high-hand jackpot four times. Three times for $500, and once for $250. My hands were a queen-high straight flush, quad Kings with a Queen, quad queens with a Jack, and a 7-high straight flush. 

Still hoping to one day hit the bad beat, though.


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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

MikeBanzai said:


> It's a cool concept, and it would fit the Scorpene's aviation-style looks really nicely, particularly if it was bi-directional rather than one direction like a dive watch.
> 
> I know. Everyone has ideas. But that's mine.


It would be ok even if uni-directional, though uni-directional bezels aren’t a big part of aviation watch tradition. However, aviation watches and countdown bezels go together, yet there are very few of them on the market. This combo bezel fits the bill while still giving people the ubiquitous dive bezels that it seems everyone wants.


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## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

I miss the days of five card draw poker nights. There's a certain charm of playing poker amongst rank amateurs (myself included) as a form of socializing.

I had laminated cards with hand rankings for the complete newbies and a house rule of:

Satan's Treasure: three natural sixes beat all.

Fun times.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

devilsbite said:


> I miss the days of five card draw poker nights. There's a certain charm of playing poker amongst rank amateurs (myself included) as a form of socializing.
> 
> I had laminated cards with hand rankings for the complete newbies and a house rule of:
> 
> ...


My dad, his brother, and their "cronies" first taught me the basics of poker when I was less than 10. They played almost every variation of poker you see in home games - acey-deucey, stud, draw, follow the Queen, etc. I was hooked from the first pot I raked in.

True story.

I discovered Hold 'Em when I saw some documentary about the World Series, and saw Phil Helmuth win the WSOP main event at 24 in 1989. I was 17. Seeing a guy not much older than me win $1M playing cards sparked something inside me that never went away.

Started playing a little in college, a little more in the army. Got really hooked when I met some fellow players through work, when I was around 30.

I'd never play any other form of poker now. Hold 'em is the king of poker games, IMO.

Pot Limit Omaha is the King's coked up brother. 

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## MikeBanzai (10 mo ago)

Re: Niemann v Carlson:

I hate that I’m even thinking this, but…

With today’s technology, it would be relatively simple to put a tiny signaling device in, say, your shoe. It would buzz, tap, provide some physical sensation. After that, you would only need to learn Morse for the numbers 1-8, the letters A-H, plus K, Q, R, N.

From there, the signal for Nf3, for example, would be pretty short and easy.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeBanzai said:


> Re: Niemann v Carlson:
> 
> I hate that I’m even thinking this, but…
> 
> ...


Get ready for naked chess...

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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Norwegian news also mention a connection between Niemann and "mentor Maxim Dlugy" Carlsen is pointing out. Why is that worth mentioning, is Dlugy some Machine Learning expert/Morse alphabet enthusiast/mentat?


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

VH944 said:


> Norwegian news also mention a connection between Niemann and "mentor Maxim Dlugy" Carlsen is pointing out. Why is that worth mentioning, is Dlugy some Machine Learning expert/Morse alphabet enthusiast/mentat?


Nah, he's an American Chess Grandmaster who runs an academy/chess school for kids. Niemann attended the school hence his link.

Dlugy has been involved in some dodgy stuff in the past incl. online cheating.

Will be really interesting to see what Carlsen actually specifically accuses him of doing rather than a general accusation. I'd like to know the specifics.

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## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> Get ready for naked chess...
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


OK, I’m ready.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> The stakes just got higher.
> 
> If it can be proven that Niemann didn't cheat, Carlsen is going to look like a buffoon. If it can be proven that Niemann did cheat, Carlsen will be vindicated, virtually unquestionable in the future, and the game's authorities will have to take greater measures to stop cheating.
> 
> ...


Just out of interest, I used to work in gaming and betting. One of the little known contractual clauses in UK gaming and betting is known as the 'palp' or palpable error. This effectively means that if the bookie made an obvious error that the gamblor was - or should have been - aware of, then the bookie could refuse to pay out under their T&C's. 

This also worked for gaming machines, and from memory there was a case where a game went into production untested with a flaw, and someone won a load, and then told a family member who also won a load. The Bookie took them to court, and won, and the main reason they won was that the Judge recognised that the individual must have known the game was broken as he wouldn't have told his family member to 'get on a good thing'.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

starwasp said:


> Just out of interest, I used to work in gaming and betting. One of the little known contractual clauses in UK gaming and betting is known as the 'palp' or palpable error. This effectively means that if the bookie made an obvious error that the gamblor was - or should have been - aware of, then the bookie could refuse to pay out under their T&C's.
> 
> This also worked for gaming machines, and from memory there was a case where a game went into production untested with a flaw, and someone won a load, and then told a family member who also won a load. The Bookie took them to court, and won, and the main reason they won was that the Judge recognised that the individual must have known the game was broken as he wouldn't have told his family member to 'get on a good thing'.


Interesting. 

I recently read a takedown of the unholy alliance between state and local governments and legalized gambling. 

The argument was detailed, but the short version is that it's mathematically impossible for legalized gambling to be the net benefit to the community that it's ubiquitously sold as. The spread or profit the gaming companies take (even if it's a reasonable return on their costs of doing business) turn every bet into a negative sum (as opposed to zero sum) proposition. Gambling addictions and their consequences cost the community more than it collects in taxes and fees paid by the gaming companies they host.

Don't know if I agree, but the support for the argument made sense, especially when my walk to the poker room passes hundreds of poor-looking people fixated on slot machines. Vegas may be doing okay, but I suspect that's mostly driven by tourism - money getting sucked in from out of town, more than the local community. By contrast, every casino I've been to in Pennsylvania or New Jersey is surrounded by abject squalor. 

Especially in light of such, it's impossible to view the gaming enterprises with any form of sympathy. How can anyone not root for the rare individual who somehow gets the better of them?

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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’ve never been in a casino. 


Odd.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I’ve never been in a casino.
> 
> 
> Odd.
> ...


I only find myself in them because I don't get invited to enough home games.

I know...shocker.

Walking through one is like walking through a human zoo. Most of humanity's worst instincts are on display.

When I take a break from playing to get something to eat, I think of the doorway between the poker room and the casino's main floor as "the airlock". I'm leaving my somewhat odd and occasionally dangerous yet familiar environs, and stepping into a realm of noisy and unregulated, yet controlled, or at least contained, chaos. 

Don't mind me, alien beings. Just passing through on my way to get some grub. I'll be out of your way shortly. Continue your money-sucking merriment. 

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## gavindavie (Nov 18, 2017)

Yet another "watch plus sunrise" from me. This one is different though as I am now in mobile phone range and about to step onto land. (Though I'll freely admit it looks very much like the last one I posted)
I'm off to Greece to celebrate my 50th birthday for a week then I'll be home to try on my Amphion that's been sitting there for 5 weeks.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

gavindavie said:


> [...]
> I'm off to Greece to celebrate my 50th birthday for a week [...]


That's the way - for a _week!_


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I recently read a takedown of the unholy alliance between state and local governments and legalized gambling.
> 
> ...


Casino's weren't my business line, but anecdotally something like 15% of the adult population has a propensity to gamble and of those c1-2% have a propensity to become a problem gambler.

The issue for regulators is that the 15% who have a propensity to gamble don't care whether it's legalised or not. So banning legal gambling simply leads to an explosion of illegal gambling: this then leads to the risk to sports integrity issues (legal bookies don't fix matches), exploitative behaviour (gambling on credit or encouraging loss-chasing) and of course funding of organised crime. I am not an American but I am sure anyone who has read any Damon Runyon will recognise all these things in a US context.

So, I am afraid its not really a question of whether the gamblers loses money or not, it is a question of who benefits: the mob or the state. 

The UK legalised sports betting away from horse race tracks in 1961, well before the 60's social revolution, as its pre-existing policies were encouraging illegal bookmakers in every town, usually in the back rooms of pubs. Credit betting and losses chased up by men in balaclava's with cricket bats. 

So, today, UK regulated bookmaker shop staff are well trained in the art of spotting problem gambling and intervening, and drinking (and drunk patrons) are not allowed. Bearing in mind that the staff are usually not well paid and also local, the idea that they are indifferent to negative consquences is simply not right. They live in the town where their patrons live. For perspective, the average stake bet in sports betting in UK betting shops was £7 but the median was £2,

Not to say that harm never happens, and of course many people have a completely reasonable moral aversion, but many people find their enjoyment of sports enhanced when they have a financial stake in the outcome, and it certainly makes US sports more interesting, given that odds setting is largely done around the concept of a line, or spread, as compared to UK sports betting which largely focuses around the odds or probability of one side or the other winning.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gavindavie said:


> Yet another "watch plus sunrise" from me. This one is different though as I am now in mobile phone range and about to step onto land. (Though I'll freely admit it looks very much like the last one I posted)
> I'm off to Greece to celebrate my 50th birthday for a week then I'll be home to try on my Amphion that's been sitting there for 5 weeks.
> 
> View attachment 16930864


Happy birthday, my friend! Party like your joints won't ache in the morning!

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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

starwasp said:


> Casino's weren't my business line, but anecdotally something like 15% of the adult population has a propensity to gamble and of those c1-2% have a propensity to become a problem gambler.
> 
> The issue for regulators is that the 15% who have a propensity to gamble don't care whether it's legalised or not. So banning legal gambling simply leads to an explosion of illegal gambling: this then leads to the risk to sports integrity issues (legal bookies don't fix matches), exploitative behaviour (gambling on credit or encouraging loss-chasing) and of course funding of organised crime. I am not an American but I am sure anyone who has read any Damon Runyon will recognise all these things in a US context.
> 
> ...


I've mentally debated the pros and cons of legalized gambling, too, as I'm aware of the inevitable course of things when gambling is illegal.

I suppose the article was mostly making the point that the benefit to government never meets expectations, and casinos tend to become like centers of gravity for social ills, whereas other forms of illegal gambling are more geographically distributed, spreading associated social ills more widely yet less deeply. 

I'm honestly not sure that last part is right, though. I don't know if the casinos ruined Atlantic City, NJ, or if poor government did. I know poor government wrecked the city of Chester, Pennsylvania, long before Harrah's arrived. Ditto for Bensalem, Pennsylvania and Parx casino. 

I suspect casino operators may gravitate to downtrodden areas because those areas need the revenue more, and the local population is less likely to make a fuss.

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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> I've mentally debated the pros and cons of legalized gambling, too, as I'm aware of the inevitable course of things when gambling is illegal.
> 
> I suppose the article was mostly making the point that the benefit to government never meets expectations, and casinos tend to become like centers of gravity for social ills, whereas other forms of illegal gambling are more geographically distributed, spreading associated social ills more widely yet less deeply.
> 
> ...


We are a long way off watches so will restrict myself to one more post.

I suspect you are looking down the wrong end of the telescope in terms of the casino's driving the agenda and I do not think it is the presence of the Casino per-se that turns a city poor, but it is more that Casino's are seen as a policy solution for poor cities, or should I say cities with few economic alternatives. 

All well and good, but when competition comes, then the one-industry town always struggles. No different to the travails of Detroit or the textile towns in New England, or the Allegheny valley steel towns in different industries.

I have been to Vegas, Atlantic City and Reno in my time. Reno was designed to attract northern CA punters, but have been hollowed out by the Indian reservations opening casino's between northern CA and Reno, taking the traffic from SF. Atlantic City has seen an explosion of casino's in their vicinity, up as far north as MA. Why drive from Stamford or New Haven to Atlantic City when you can drive up to Mass. 

Vegas is the only one that has done very well in maintaining and widening its USP, but in truth it has not just transcended NV, but it has almost transcended the US. THE global sin city. I used to fly business class from London to Vegas, and would be the only person in business class who wasn't wearing shorts and a T-shirt, knocking back the champers as soon as we went wheels up. Getting my laptop out to work whilst everyone was crowding round the skybar was an odd experience.

Just remember, when you are flying into Vegas at night and the strip is all lit up: that wasn't built off the back of winning punters!


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> I suspect casino operators may gravitate to downtrodden areas because those areas need the revenue more, and the local population is less likely to make a fuss.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


I think a big part of it in PA anyway is the kickbacks and 'gifts' these companies get when they build in these less desirable places. Which I get I think... I mean Chester now is not a big deal to visit post Harrah's and the soccer stadium. But back when the casino opened I wasn't all that comfortable about venturing off 95 there.

Different story in Delaware where they're restricted to the existing race tracks.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

starwasp said:


> We are a long way off watches so will restrict myself to one more post.
> 
> I suspect you are looking down the wrong end of the telescope in terms of the casino's driving the agenda and I do not think it is the presence of the Casino per-se that turns a city poor, but it is more that Casino's are seen as a policy solution for poor cities, or should I say cities with few economic alternatives.
> 
> ...


When I read online articles making some argument, I try to remember that many aren't being written from a purely academic, "increase the world's knowledge" standpoint, but rather that many of the authors have some agenda.

I completely agree that casinos are seen as a policy solution for poor cities in desperate need of revenue. It leads me to wonder how much of the human misery surrounding casinos was there before the gaming started.

I suppose that was implied in the article I read - desperate cities make desperate moves, perhaps making deals which turn out to be somewhat Faustian, to whatever extent the casinos know what they're getting into more than the cities do, and the outcomes favor the casinos more. I further suppose that the cities' expectations not being met could easily be the result of those expectations being unrealistic to start, and likely over-sold by politicians looking to be re-elected.

Before the casinos opened up in Chester (just outside Philadelphia) and Bensalem (ditto), my poker friends and I would make periodic excursions to Atlantic City. Outside of rush hour, the trip could be made in about an hour and 15 minutes. We'd go to the Borgata, exclusively, as it was the main casino NOT located on the AC boardwalk. The entire boardwalk neighborhood has become a huge slum without any redeeming virtues.

But since the casinos opened in Pennsylvania, there's just no reason to go to AC to play poker anymore. From what I've heard, the decline of AC has only accelerated in the years since. While playing in card rooms closer to home, I'll hear from people who still go to Borgata to play, but most of them live in NJ, with a much shorter drive. 

That said - as @winstoda stated above, I think the casino in Chester paved the way for the soccer stadium. Between those two attractions, and the large presence of Boeing, there are sections of the city which can be safely ventured into again. 

As for Parx Casino in Bensalem, it too was built as an annex to an existing horse track, like the casinos in Delaware, apparently. I suppose if you already have horse racing, and betting on it, adding another building with other forms of gaming wouldn't be too much of a shift in the local landscape. 

And, honestly, I don't think I'd ever been off the highway in Bensalem before the Parx casino opened. I couldn't tell you what it was like before, versus now. It's not nearly as bad as Chester. I feel safe driving through or stopping at a convenience store (preferably in the daylight), but I wouldn't want to live there. Then again, that's true for most of the city of Philadelphia, especially the northern parts which abut up against Bensalem.

As for Vegas - been there 3-4 times, always on business, but always with time to play. It generally only takes about 2 days there before I'm as exited about leaving as I was about going. Other than taking easy money off other tourists, there's not much that town has to keep me from wanting to escape it.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I have a much less optimistic view of why casinos are built where they are built. 

The casinos in Edmonton are all in “low rent” areas for a few reasons: 1. The casino wants to maximize their margins by paying the least amount on property, 2. People who are less well off financially are more likely to gamble(a psychological “way out”). 

The city likes casinos because they tend to occupy areas with diminished tax revenue due to the closing of, or abandonment of an area by small businesses.

All of the casinos in Edmonton, are occupying buildings that used to be some other business or are in hotels close to major thoroughfares/freeways.

The casinos that are in the nearby Reserves have become actual Vegas style event centres, with concerts and MMA events, comedians etc. Multiple sources of income, much nicer buildings, local employment drivers, and since they are specifically built to be casinos, a major source of income and prosperity for formerly borderline destitute Reserves. 

My perception only, no “research” involved, just my amateur observation filtered through my inner Spock.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

A number of years ago I worked at the Conoco Phillips refinery in Trainer PA. That whole area of PA from Trainer to Chester along the Delaware was a shady place.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I have a much less optimistic view of why casinos are built where they are built.
> 
> The casinos in Edmonton are all in “low rent” areas for a few reasons: 1. The casino wants to maximize their margins by paying the least amount on property, 2. People who are less well off financially are more likely to gamble(a psychological “way out”).
> 
> ...


I mean...if we're indulging dark thoughts...remember the dystopian version of "Hill Valley", with Biff Tannen's Casino at its center, in Back to the Future II?

Not that I pin all of the local community's ills on the presence of a casino, because I don't. I think the presence of a casino is a symptom of bigger problems, not the cause.

Western society is going to hell in a handbasket. None of the symptoms of societal decline are a surprise.

No point in hand-wringing. Spoiler alert - in the end, we're all dead. If you survive long enough to see the fires of the apocalypse, best grab some marshmallows to roast over the embers.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I mean...if we're indulging dark thoughts...remember the dystopian version of "Hill Valley", with Biff Tannen's Casino at its center, in Back to the Future II?
> 
> Not that I pin all of the local community's ills on the presence of a casino, because I don't. I think the presence of a casino is a symptom of bigger problems, not the cause.
> 
> ...


Counterintuitively, the world has never been better. Statistically speaking, far less death and carnage and poverty than ever in our history as a species.

Regionally? Yah we’re ****ed.

That warms my doom cockles…


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We should totally bring back "cockles". 

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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> No point in hand-wringing. Spoiler alert - in the end, we're all dead. If you survive long enough to see the fires of the apocalypse, best grab some marshmallows to roast over the embers.


Funny the apocalypse was brought up in here today, of all days.

I just had my apocalypse vest delivered. It carries 11x14 steel plates. That should complete the "downfall of civilized society" insurance kit.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> We should totally bring back "cockles".
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Absolutely  but even more so, and if I might suggest, more appropriately for this forum... let's bring back...cockwomble!

Now that's a word that would get a run for its money around here 

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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Absolutely  but even more so, and if I might suggest, more appropriately for this forum... let's bring back...cockwomble!
> 
> Now that's a word that would get a run for its money around here
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


Well doesn’t that tickle my fancy!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Well doesn’t that tickle my fancy!
> 
> 
> Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


Please keep your fancy covered, for the sake of propriety.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Please keep your fancy covered, for the sake of propriety.


NEVER!


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Pro poker player accused of using hidden vibrating device to win $130k


Poker newcomer Robbi Jade Lew won an all-in hand for a pot of $269,000. Veteran player Garrett Adelstein, who lost the hand, believes she cheated during the game.




www.dailymail.co.uk






Well, that didn't take long.


I guess you could say the player had an ace up the hole


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> Pro poker player accused of using hidden vibrating device to win $130k
> 
> 
> Poker newcomer Robbi Jade Lew won an all-in hand for a pot of $269,000. Veteran player Garrett Adelstein, who lost the hand, believes she cheated during the game.
> ...


Wow.

That's...ridiculous.

So...without knowing ALL the details, specifically, whether or not there was any way for anyone else to be watching the hand, knowing the hole cards or not, and if that person could have been signaling her...

I think it's highly likely she was cheating.

1. She offered to give the money back. 

No poker player on the planet would do that, if they won a hand honestly, even if they did by doing something amazingly stupid.

2. She apparently later claimed that she "mis-read" her hand, which usually means someone mis-read their hand pre-flop, or may have mis-remembered what it was, but she looked back at her hand as soon as he moved all-in on the turn. So...she was lying.

3. He's apparently an experienced pro, with tons of earnings. She apparently just "got serious" about playing following the pandemic. 

Being new to the game, it's possible she's just that terrible. But, playing at those stakes, in televised events, with pros at the table, it's unlikely.

He raised to $3k pre-flop from the small blind, which is a huge raise in a pot with less than $2k in it. She only had $800 invested in the big-blind. That's an easy fold with Jack-four off-suit. 

Her call pre-flop makes no sense at all with those pot-odds. $2200 to call in a pot with $4500 in it is roughly 2-to-1 pot-odds, with a hand that doesn't rank in the top 2/3 of starting hands, and is basically un-playable unless you absolutely smash the flop and make a hidden monster with it. 

He flopped an open-ended straight-flush draw. Any club, jack, six, seven, or eight would make him the winning hand. On the flop, with 18 outs, he's a statistical favorite to win. He'll make his hand about 70% of the time, though making a flush with 8-7 in your hand isn't always a winner, when your opponent makes a bigger flush. 

On the flop of 10-10-9 with two clubs, she had no pair, just one over-card to the board, and two "back-door" draws - she was three to a straight and three to a flush. 

She'd need to A) go runner-runner, catching two consecutive cards - perfectly - on the turn and the river to make either hand, the straight or the flush, and B) hope NOT to pair her Jack, as that would complete many straight draws (including, specifically, the one her opponent had), and put her in the difficult position of having to decide what to do with top-pair (Jacks), but no kicker (her four).

On the turn, still with 18 outs, he's got a 35%-40% shot at making his hand (not sure why the video shows him as a 57% favorite at that point, since his odds would be cut in half from the flop). But if he's a very good player, he'd know he has 12 additional "bluff outs" with any Ace, King, or Queen, creating a situation where ~60% of the time, the river card is either going to make his hand, or give him a chance to make a very plausible bluff, and she'll be forced to fold. Arguably, he might also conceivably bluff if the river is a heart, representing a heart flush, giving him an additional 10 bluff-outs, and putting her in a difficult situation ~80% of the time.

Even a half-way decent player wouldn't think they were in the lead in her spot, or continue with the hand after he bets big on the turn. Very few good players would raise there, knowing they could just flat-call his bet, peel off another card, and either call, bluff, or check-back on the river.

And yet, she raises him on the turn, with very little reason to think she had much if any "pot equity" (the odds of winning the pot), after he A) made a huge raise pre-flop, from out-of-position, which suggests a strong hand, B) bet the flop, in a continued show of strength, C) makes a huge bet the turn, in yet another show of strength, and then, finally, D) re-raises her raise, putting her all-in, in a MASSIVE show of strength.

Absolutely no one is going to think that they should make that all-in call after he re-raises her back. She still has no pair, and no draw on the turn, just one over-card to the board, which isn't likely to be any good if she pairs it.

The only reason she had to think he might have been weak was that his flop bet was a little small, roughly 1/3 of the pot, when most players are going to bet at least half the pot on the flop. It's the sort of weak-looking bet that screams "I'm drawing", or "I'm bluffing", but also might scream "please, raise me, I've got a monster!". It's a weird bet because it was smaller than his pre-flop raise.

His turn bet of $10k was MASSIVE, relative to the $11k pot. That sometimes indicates a bluff, but usually indicates a semi-strong hand that needs protection against a draw, something like three 10's or Ace-nine, either of which, again, handily beats her Jack-four. It would make sense for him to bet that way, NOT as a bluff, with a straight draw and not one but two flush draws on the board when the 3 of hearts comes on the turn.

I've raised opponents as a bluff when I thought they were weak. When they raise me back, I fold. Especially if they raise me all-in. That's what you do when your bluff-raise backfires. You don't call an all-in bet with a nothing hand like Jack-four off-suit. If she had raised him all-in, that might have made some sense (it's a kamikaze move, but I've seen it done, and once or twice, I've done it), but not calling off all her money with his all-in re-raise.

If she was just putting him on a straight draw, without the flush draw, he could have had Queen-Jack, or Jack-Eight (both better hands than her Jack-four). Even if she put him on 8-7 specifically, pairing her Jack would complete his straight draw, and put her in a tough spot, where she'd have to decide whether or not he made the straight, or if her Jacks-up might be best.

But she couldn't possibly put him on exactly 8-7 of clubs. At best, that would be one hand within a fairly large range of holdings he could have had, and been representing, most of which trounces her Jack-Four. 

Even if he only had a flush draw, without the straight draw, he likely wouldn't have played it the way he did, very strongly, unless it was the BEST flush draw, and even then, he probably wouldn't have gone all-in with just a flush draw on a paired board, where there's a risk of his opponent snap-calling him with a full house (9's full of 10's or 10's full of 9's). But even if he made that play, which is terrible, if he was drawing to an Ace-high, King-high, or Queen-high flush, all those hands beat her Jack-four.

An experienced player might be able to deduce that he was on a straight or flush draw, and that Jack-Four might be the best hand. But very, very few pros would call an all-in bet for >2x the pot (his all-in bet was for her whole stack of $109, in a pot that only had $42k in it), and a huge sum of money, with her hand, in that situation. 

There are just too many hands that beat her, and not nearly enough bluffs she can beat. He wasn't even on a pure bluff. He was semi-bluffing with very good odds of making his hand, and believing (rightly so) that he was creating good "fold equity" (the odds she'll fold a better hand) with his raise.

He could have entered the hand with a pair of threes, taken the lead in the betting, made a continuation bet / bluff on the flop, and gotten lucky to make three 3's on the turn.

I've done that. If you start out with a pair, and your opponent doesn't re-raise you pre-flop, you're usually ahead when the board has a pair on the flop, even if all three cards are higher than your pair, and you should bet like you're ahead, especially if it's a draw-heavy, "wet" board, like 10-10-9 with two clubs. If your opponent calls your flop bet, you pray to catch a miracle card on the turn, and turn your two-pair into a full-house, then pray your opponent makes his straight or flush, and can call you when you jam the pot like a Christmas turkey.

The worst players at that level would understand that there's simply no way to call in that spot, when ALL they can beat is a bluff, and many bluffs in his range would still be ahead of her hand.

According to the article, DraftKings calculated that there were 150 ways for her hand to lose, and only 6 ways she could win. Basically, she called off a huge bet, for all her money, as a 25-to-1 underdog, in a pot where she only had $25k invested, and which was only offering her roughly 1.5-to-1 pot-odds when he put her all-in. That's a sucker bet. 

I doubt any players would even be able to calculate their effective odds in that situation. It's just ridiculous, because no one would think Jack-four is a strong enough hand to call, even if he was bluffing, as he could have been bluffing with a much better hand, and thus still won.

She started the hand with $133k. Players aren't "pot-committed" until they invest at least 30% of their starting stack, which would have been $40k. She could have EASILY gotten away from her hand. No way she could have thought she was priced in to a mandatory call.

Her mannerisms during the hand suggest she was both A) way too comfortable and having too much fun facing a huge bet for her entire stack, and B) delaying her action.

Delaying one's action before making a big and difficult decision is normal enough in poker. But that really shouldn't have been a difficult decision. And usually when someone delays to deliberate, the "go into the tank" - they look like they're thinking, hard. They might talk to themselves. They might try to get their opponent talking. They don't fidget in their seat while smiling when they're facing a huge decision for a lot of money, with a very weak hand.

I've been playing poker a long time. I've made countless wild bluffs. His wasn't that wild. He was actually a statistical favorite to win the hand. No reason for him to feel worried she might call, and thus no reason for her to think he seemed scared.

I can't remember ever being called by anyone with such a ridiculously weak hand. That's not what she's claiming is a "hero call". A hero call is calling a big bet on the river with Ace-high, King-high, or just one small pair when the board makes it easy to think your opponent has a stronger hand. A hero call requires having a hand with some reasonable pot equity before the river or legitimate show-down value on the river.

That's either the worst / best / luckiest call of all time, or she was cheating. And my money would be on cheating.


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

docvail said:


> According to the article, DraftKings calculated that there were 150 ways for her hand to lose, and only 6 ways she could win. Basically, she called off a huge bet, for all her money, as a 25-to-1 underdog, in a pot where she only had $25k invested, and which was only offering her roughly 1.5-to-1 pot-odds when he put her all-in. That's a sucker bet.


I watched the full video. But I don't get it.
If Garret is a huge favorite to win the hand,
with only 1 card left, then why would she call the all in bet?
And she had them run it 2 times...and won the hand both times!
Is the accusation that she SOMEHOW knew what the next 2 cards would be
that the dealer would deal? HOW is that a real possibility?
Please explain what I'm missing. Thanks


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> I watched the full video. But I don't get it.
> If Garret is a huge favorite to win the hand,
> with only 1 card left, then why would she call the all in bet?
> And she had them run it 2 times...and won the hand both times!
> ...


I've tried multiple times to respond without typing a wall of text. This is my fifth attempt. It's still a lot of text. Sorry...

Garret was a statistical favorite on the flop, but not the turn. On the turn, depending on what cards the other players not involved in the hand were dealt, his odds could be as high as 45%, to maybe 25%-30% on the low end. 

But if she wasn't cheating, she couldn't be sure of that. Even if she put him on a draw, he could be drawing with a hand that beats her Jack-high.

The totality of the way the hand played out, from her pre-flop call to her agreeing to run it twice after she won it the first time on the river, suggests she's an idiot and was cheating, with help from someone only capable of sending her basic signals like check, call, fold, or raise, but not complex info such as the exact hand he was holding, or "don't run it again!"

The whole hand is suspicious, but what really makes my spidey-sense tingle is the combination of her turn re-raise size, which is idiotic yet perfect, and her agreeing to run it twice after she won it outright the first time, which is just idiotic if she was NOT cheating, yet proves she is an idiot if she WAS cheating.

Re - could she have somehow known what cards would be dealt in advance? 

I've reasoned my way through it, and I'm convinced no one hacked into the automatic shuffler machine, such that they'd be able to know the cards before they were dealt. The way dealers shuffle with the cards spread around face down on the table makes it impossible for a dealer to stack the deck.

The more I think about this, the more convinced I become that there are only two possibilities here:

1. She's an idiot, and was cheating, receiving some very basic signals from some unseen compatriot, who knew what cards her opponents were holding, but didn't know what they'd be in advance, and couldn't signal her with more complex information or instructions, and didn't anticipate that might be necessary to avoid a ridiculous situation bound to arouse suspicions, and avoid a situation in which she risked giving back half the pot they cheated so hard to win.

2. She's somehow simultaneously a genius player, yet also the world's worst player.


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

One thing is clear from all this: she is an idiot.
So looking for it to make sense is hard to do.
We naturally think: how would a smart person play this hand,
and what she does this whole hand doesn't make sense.
So we think: she must be cheating.
But the other explanation seems just as likely: 
she is stupid and just got lucky that her Jack high actually won the hand...twice!
---
Even if a smart person somehow cheated and actually saw his cards 
(which all of us did, since it was televised/streamed...7, 8), 
we would have folded after he went "all in". 
We certainly wouldn't have risked all our money...and have them run it twice.
So even with the element of cheating, it only "makes sense" if we say she is stupid.
And since that is the case, why even bring "cheating" into the explanation...
it seems just as likely to say that she's an idiot, who played like an idiot, 
and won the hand twice, even though Garret played the hand better.
---
I heard that she even volunteered to give him back all the money.
This is incredibly stupid too! It doesn't "clear" her at all. It only makes her look
more like she somehow cheated. She didn't have to do that, it was a lot of money,
and she got "nothing" for all of that money. Again, only someone stupid would do that:
give someone over $130,000 dollars and receive literally nothing in return!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> One thing is clear from all this: she is an idiot.
> So looking for it to make sense is hard to do.
> We naturally think: how would a smart person play this hand,
> and what she does this whole hand doesn't make sense.
> ...


It's always possible stupidity alone would suffice as an explanation. But in this case, I don't think it does. I think she's just smart enough to understand the value in pretending to be dumber than she really is, but not smart enough to avoid exposing how dumb she actually is.

I think the fact that she gave the money back is tantamount to an admission of guilt. To be fair, it could also be explained by stupidity, I suppose, though that explanation seems less likely to me.

A person truly that dumb who didn't cheat wouldn't be as likely to see why the way she played the hand was suspicious, and thus less likely to give the money back. A person that dumb would likely think she just made the correct play, and he was being a sore loser.

A smarter person and better player would have a better explanation for why they played the hand so unusually, whether they cheated or not. I find myself capable of explaining the logic behind all my worst decisions at the table.

A half-smart person who knew they'd cheated and been caught would likely panic and give the money back. It's hard for a half-smart person to come up with plausible explanations when they're panicked.

She also apparently lied about mis-reading her hand, when it looks very much like she checked her hand before calling. Mis-reading one's card is usually not truly mis-reading, but rather mis-remembering what they were, and not re-checking them.

Better players tend not to look back at their hole cards after the flop. I try to never do that, though I'll typically look at my hand 2-3 times before the flop, to commit the value and / or the suits of my cards to memory.

Post-flop, I'll sometimes pretend to check my cards when I know my opponents are watching me, in order to make them think I have a different hand than the one I do. But that's not something you do when your opponent has moved all-in, because there's no longer any value to deception.

Once in a while, a player will mis-play a hand because we mis-remember what we have, and don't think or don't want to look at it again, for fear of giving away info to opponents who notice. But again, there's no reason not to check your hand once an opponent goes all-in, when the value of that info is useless.

The mis-read / mis-remember claim usually occurs when someone with a garbage starting hand gets lucky and improves more than they realize (someone makes two pair with Kings and Fives, but mis-remembers their 5 as a 3, and thus thinks they only have a pair of Kings with a weak kicker), or vice-versa, they think their hand improves more than it did (thinking they made Kings and FIves when they actually just have Kings with a 3).

So, at the showdown, they're embarrassed when they say "two-pair" and turn over one pair, to their opponent's relief, or say "just a pair of Kings" and turn over two-pair, angering their opponent. Once in a while, someone will think they made one pair when they actually had no pair, which is REALLY embarrassing.

When a player connects with the board in a moderate to big way, especially when there's two or more of the same suit on the board, or two or more middle-range cards which could possibly make a straight, it's not too unusual to see them check their cards. The sudden appearance of cards that improve a previously-marginal hand has a funny way of making people doubt their memory. You can almost hear them think, "could I really be that lucky to make a hand with this garbage?"

It's more unusual to see that when the board completely missed them. If I have 4-5 of hearts, or Ace-King of spades, and the board comes 10-9-9 with two clubs, I never need to check my cards. 

With her Jack of clubs-four of hearts, if the board had 3 clubs or 3 hearts, or if it was 5-6-8-10, 7-8-9-5 or 8-9-10-5, checking her cards on turn would make more sense. In either case, she'd have gone from holding a garbage hand to picking up a backdoor flush and / or straight draw on the turn. But she had none of that. The board completely missed her on both streets. The only plausible explanation is she might have thought her four could have been a 3.

On occasion, I'll double-check to make sure my hand is as strong as I think it is, before I call a big bet, either an all-in, or an opponent's river bet. For instance, in a recent session, I turned a very sneaky inside straight, which was the best hand possible at that point. I check-raised my opponent, who re-raised me all-in. I checked my cards to make sure I really had that straight before I called him. But the point here is that I DID have it.

Her checking her hand before calling his all-in could be interpreted as a sign that she's smart enough to understand the basics of poker, and perhaps have some reservations about calling his all-in bet with a hand she understands is pretty weak, with little to no chance of improving. So, she looks at it again, to see if she overlooked its strength relative to the board, before calling.

If she checked her hand, as it appears she did, then later said she mis-read (mis-remembered) it, she's lying. 

If she didn't check her hand the way it appeared she did, then it forces questions about what hand she thought she had before she called, and whether or not it's plausible that she actually thought she had that hand, and why she wouldn't check it, in that spot, if she was going to take as long as she did to make the call.

It's impossible to think she thought she had a hand like Jack-8 of clubs, which would have also given her an open-ended straight flush draw, because her cards weren't even the same color. She must have known on the turn she had no possibility of making a flush. 

At best, she might have thought she had a straight draw, with Jack-8 off-suit, but that would require us to believe she mistook her 4 for an 8, and called off all her money with just one card left to come and her yet to make her hand, without first checking her hand again, which seems really unlikely, no matter how dumb she may be.

MAYBE she thought she made a pair of 3's with Jack-3, instead of Jack-4, and despite being incredibly dumb, she somehow put together that her imagined pair of 3's was actually better than his draw with no pair, at that point.

In any case, facing an big all-in bet, with a hand that isn't obviously a cinch to win, most players, even good ones, will feel compelled to check their hands before they call, and take a moment to calculate their likelihood of winning. 

It's unlikely that she did NOT check her hand before calling, and assuming she did check it, it's really unlikely she'd be dumb enough to call with it, then later lie and claim she mis-read it.

The fact that she's playing at very high stakes, with pros, in a televised game, makes it less likely she's really that dumb. Players that dumb don't reach that level. 

Re - what a smart person who was cheating would have done...

Like I said above, I had more typed out as a response to explain what happened. My suspicion is that her compatriots didn't anticipate a situation where she'd inadvertently create a huge pot with her holding a very weak hand that just happened to be better than her opponents, and they'd be forced to make a choice between taking the money and arousing suspicion, or letting the money go and continuing to cheat in less obvious ways.

I think her hesitation to call was due to her compatriots delaying their signal to her, while they debated the pros and cos of calling in that spot, weighing the value of the pot against the likelihood that calling would arouse too much suspicion, while trying to estimate just how dumb other people would believe she truly might be.

I'd need a minute too, if I were them. 

When I've imagined I had the ability to know an opponent's hole cards for certain, I've imagined situations wherein I'd be faced with a decision to fold an extremely strong hand that just happened to be beat, or calling with a marginal hand that just happened to be best. Making too many impossible folds ore impossible calls would eventually make opponents suspicious, and eventually they'd refuse to play me. 

On occasion, I've had opponents get frustrated enough to tell me I always seemed to fold whenever they had a sneaky-strong hand, or call whenever they bluffed. Sometimes they'll change seats, or even tables, just to get away from me. Sometimes I'll wonder if I'd been inadvertently exposing my hole cards to a particularly troublesome opponent sitting next to me. When someone makes too many correct decisions, it arouses suspicion.

I think her compatriots were just smart enough to devise their cheating scheme, but not smart enough to foresee the likelihood that playing hands the way that one played out would arouse too much suspicion.

Her turn raise makes me think they were able to tell her to raise, but not able to tell her how MUCH to raise. Her min-raise (raising the least amount allowable, doubling his bet) is really strange, and at odds with the theory that she's really just that dumb, because it just happened to be perfectly sized to induce him to go all-in.

If she was just dumb, and raising as a bluff, she probably would have raised more, to get him to fold. She would have folded when he raised all-in if she was just a dummy making an ill-conceived bluff there. 

If she was cheating, and someone could tell her how much to bet, they'd have told her to raise bigger than she did, to get him to fold his draw.

Her min-raise created 4-to-1 pot odds, in a situation where she was unlikely to be raising, at all, with a hand that was strong enough to raise, and thus more likely to be bluffing. He'd never lay his hand down in that situation, no matter what he's holding, but definitely not when he's got a better than 4-to-1 chance of making his hand, which he did.

At worst / most, he might put her on three-3's or a bigger flush draw or bigger straight draw. Most players with those sorts of hands would raise the flop, not the turn, when their odds of winning were decreased. And against any of those hands, his straight-flush draw is not a huge statistical underdog, and he'd call.

The absolute best hands she could possibly have would be four 10's, or a full house with 9's and 10's. If she actually had any of those hands, most players, even dumb ones, would slow-play it by just calling, not raising. 

If she min-raised with a monster, that might actually make sense, whether she's an idiot or a genius. It's the sort of thing that gets an opponent to think you're bluffing and over-play their hand (which you'd want), or freezes an opponent from making future bets (which you wouldn't want). 

But she didn't have a monster. She had garbage, which just happened to be the better hand at that point, making it either an absolutely terrible play, or a genius bluff.

And yet, if he puts her on a weak hand, and wants to re-raise her back, there's literally no amount he could raise her at that point without her becoming pot-committed should she call, meaning she'd have >30% of her starting stack invested in the pot. If he wants to re-raise her, the only raise that makes sense is putting her all-in, to put maximum pressure on her to fold.

She started the hand with $133k and $800 in the big blind. She called his pre-flop raise to $3k, his flop bet of $2500, and raised him $20k on the turn. She had $25,500 invested at that point. If he min-raised her back, to $40k, her investment of $45,500 would suddenly be just over the $40k pot-committed threshold, and she'd likely shove her whole stack in, putting maximum pressure to fold on him.

When she min-raised him, he couldn't re-raise her anything less than all-in. His choices were limited to:

1. Call off another $20k in a pot where he'd already invested $15,500, with a draw that might miss, and force him to either check his losing hand or make a weak-looking bluff on the river.

2. Fold (which he'd never do with 4-to-1 pot-odds).

3. Raise, but raise her all-in, to put maximum pressure on her to fold what he likely thought was a bigger flush draw or bigger straight draw, or bottom set (3's). With only $25,500 invested in the pot at that point, he correctly knew she could afford to fold her most likely hands, and would be less likely to call off another >$100k with any of them.

Even if she's a complete idiot, I don't see how she calls his all-in bet, without first checking her hand, and certainly not after checking it.

I just don't see how a complete idiot would find themselves in that situation.

She makes two stupid calls. Then she makes a terribly-yet-perfectly-sized raise, as a bluff, with a terrible hand that just happened to be ahead. Then she makes the impossibly-stupid-yet-amazingly-genius call of his re-raise. Then she agrees to run it a second time after winning the first, apparently without realizing it, which is also idiotic, yet happened to work out for her, because she won again the second time, and the stupidity of it makes it look less like she was cheating, and more like she's just an idiot. Then she gives the money back, which makes her look guilty and stupid.

Nah, stupidity alone doesn't seem like the most likely explanation to me.


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

Never underestimate someone else's stupidity.
And the simplest explanation of something is often correct.
---
I've seen people act incredibly stupid...
it's hard for us normal, intelligent people to even imagine what they were thinking.
But it happens. I thank G-d that He gave me a good mind,
and I try to stay far away from stupid people.
---
IF she was cheating, she could have picked a much better hand to do it.
She could have easily lost that hand with only a jack high.
It would make much more sense for her and her accomplices to choose 
a different/better hand to cheat with. They played many hands,
before and after this one. WHY would they pick this one?
And HOW could they ensure that she would win the hand...twice?
And then why go through all that trouble and suspicion and risk,
just to give the money back?
You would have to come up with a very complicated theory to answer
all of these questions and have it make sense.
Therefore, I prefer to say that she is incredibly stupid. 
---
How she even got to the table, I don't know. 
But she is definitely not a high caliber player with a long history like Garrett.
Maybe she is a popular person that her fans would tune in to watch.
And her very exposed chest probably helped ratings as well.


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

The thing that makes me think she wasn't cheating is that it's like the worst possible spot to cheat. She had the best hand, but wasn't even the favorite. There are so many better ways to do this if in fact she was cheating.

The only thing that makes it possible is if she had _very _incomplete information, like "you have the best hand" and that's it. Or, if she had _very complete _information: his exact hole cards plus both sets of turn and river cards, which I think is impossible.

I think it's more likely that she was pissed about getting "bullied" like she said, made a very dumb play, and was embarrassed about it. That's where the excuses about misreading her hand come in, and the changing story. Then, being threatened, as she saw it, she tried to do whatever she could to make the situation go away.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Watch interruption….








Suaro on Steward


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I guess NTH now stands for “not this hand”.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> Never underestimate someone else's stupidity.
> And the simplest explanation of something is often correct.
> ---
> I've seen people act incredibly stupid...
> ...





kak1154 said:


> The thing that makes me think she wasn't cheating is that it's like the worst possible spot to cheat. She had the best hand, but wasn't even the favorite. There are so many better ways to do this if in fact she was cheating.
> 
> The only thing that makes it possible is if she had _very _incomplete information, like "you have the best hand" and that's it. Or, if she had _very complete _information: his exact hole cards plus both sets of turn and river cards, which I think is impossible.
> 
> I think it's more likely that she was pissed about getting "bullied" like she said, made a very dumb play, and was embarrassed about it. That's where the excuses about misreading her hand come in, and the changing story. Then, being threatened, as she saw it, she tried to do whatever she could to make the situation go away.


Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is usually the right one.

Vail's Nunchuks - The more unlikely the event, the more likely the simplest explanation isn't the right one.

It's like when someone says if you put a gazillion chimps in a room, banging away randomly on a gazillion typewriters, eventually one of them will produce the first three books of Genesis, completely by accident, because everyone knows chimps are atheists, or whatever, so it has to be random.

Okay, yeah, maybe, with a large enough sample size and on a long enough timeline, anything can happen, but if you only got 10 chimps and 5 typewriters and you tell me you got the whole King James bible in under a week, I smell a rat.

I'm reminded of the news story about the little girl producing amazing works of abstract art. Total prodigy. The parents tell 60 Minutes they had nothing to do with her artwork, it's all her. And to prove it, they let a filmmaker record her painting sessions.

Sure enough, the video playback shows the little girl sitting there for an agonizingly long time, doing nothing, until, finally, you can hear her father (the frustrated artist), whispering to her from off-camera, prompting her to not only do something, but telling her exactly what to do.

It was all a hoax, of course, despite the simplest explanation being that she was just the next Jackson Pollock. 

In fact, I just Googled it, and apparently there's been more than one such fraud involving young children and the art world.

When something really unlikely to happen actually does happen, I'm skeptical about the simplest explanation, especially if a more complicated explanation is more in line with all the facts and circumstances. 

When lots of people suspect cheating, there's usually a good chance someone was cheating. People generally have a fairly strong intuitive sense of when something doesn't seem right, because it's too big a deviation from the expected outcome.

She hasn't been playing long enough to plausibly claim she knew exactly what she was doing, because her Jack-high was the best hand. She's not the poker equivalent of the next genius-level whatever.

It's hard to believe she's really that stupid and yet has somehow found success as a poker player, in just the last couple years (she admitted she only got serious about the game since the pandemic lockdowns ended). 

There's no comprehensible poker-logic, of any kind, to explain the sequence of decisions she made, how she made them, and the way she behaved while hesitating before each one. 

Even if we believe she's just a big dummy, big dummies don't typically take that long to make terrible decisions. Poker hall of famer Mike Sexton says, "if you think long, you think wrong." That can be true, but I've also found my worst decisions at the table were snap decisions, and I wish I'd taken just a moment longer to consider before I acted.

Players who take a while to make a big decision don't look like they're having fun. It's anguish.

Her actions during the hand, combined with the apparent lies after the fact, and her giving the money back, all make me doubt the simplest explanations. Especially now, in light of the recent happenings in the Chess world, with similar suspicions and accusations swirling around.

In both worlds, Chess and Poker, we have a very good player being beaten by a not-all-that-great-player, by way of making not just unconventional decisions, but decisions which also seem suspicious, combined with mannerisms which don't align with how players typically act. 

Carlsen said Marcus seemed completely relaxed, not even concentrating on the game. She didn't seem to go through any of the anguished thinking which accompanies a poker player making a very difficult call for a lot of money.

I can sometimes take 2-3 minutes to consider calling when my opponent bets $100 into me, when I have a fairly strong hand. I'll think out loud, trying to logic my way through it. She seemed completely relaxed calling off $100k with a hand that wasn't strong at all.

Possible she's just that dumb, and that hand is the Chimpanzee's King James Bible? Sure, anything is possible. But likely the best explanation? I can't agree.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apparently it's not the first time there's been a cheating scandal involving live-streamed Poker games.









The Cheating Scandal That Ripped the Poker World Apart


Mike Postle was on an epic winning streak at a California casino. Veronica Brill thought he had to be playing dirty. Let the chips fall where they may.




www.wired.com





Google Mike Postle.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pretty good breakdown of the Jack-Four hand and other hands she's played which look suspicious...


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

At 1:30 the announcer says "well this hand is over"...
she has nothing, but calls the big raise anyway.
Is she cheating there too, OR just stupid and lucky?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchman600 said:


> At 1:30 the announcer says "well this hand is over"...
> she has nothing, but calls the big raise anyway.
> Is she cheating there too, OR just stupid and lucky?


I take it you're not an avid poker player, and didn't watch the analysis video I posted above.

Logically, someone who is suspected of cheating now may not have always been cheating in the past.

The guy doing the analysis in that video took a look at several hands from more than one of her sessions, and did a detailed analysis of what she said during and after the Jack-Four hand. She CLEARLY lied once it became clear people were suspicious.

Sure enough, his analysis also looked at hands which she didn't play nearly as well, or as suspiciously, during past sessions.

To answer your question - She could have gotten lucky, but she also could very well have been cheating in the Ace-King hand.

On the turn, her Ace-King is about a 10-to-1 dog against his entire value-bet range, but a definite favorite against his entire bluff range, both of which are pretty wide. So in that spot, it's not that terrible a call, so it doesn't look as suspicious.

But, a lot of players would fold there. She didn't.

Plus, his pair of sixes is a pretty weak hand. If she doesn't spike an Ace on the river, he might check to her, and fold to an all-in bluff. The relative weakness of his hand creates additional value in her call, with the added fold-equity she'd get from a big river bluff.

But, when he raised pre-flop, it would be hard for most players to put him on just a weak pair. If she wasn't getting help from someone who knew Garret wasn't that strong, it wouldn't be as easy a call for her on the flop and turn.

She only has to call $6k to see the last card. It's not $100k at risk before the last card is dealt, like it was in the Jack-Four hand. Again, not as suspicious. And of course, if she's cheating, there's zero risk of her making a bad call on the river with Ace-high if he bets into her.

If she spikes an ace on the river, he'll either put her all in, or check, then pay off an all-in bet from her, making the implied odds on her $6k call better than 6-to-1. Sure enough, she makes her hand on the river, and he puts her all-in.

Just to put some numbers on this - assume she's working with a partner who knows she's a 10-to-1 underdog to make her hand.

With 6-to-1 implied odds if she makes her hand, Garret would only need to fold to an all-in bluff on the river 20% of the time to make her turn call break-even. If her partner believes Garret is likely to fold to an all-in river bet more than 20% of the time, her call on the turn has +EV (positive expected value).

What are the odds Garret folds to her $19k all-in bluff if she doesn't catch the Ace? Probably not very high, when the pot would be laying him almost 2.3-to-1. His pair of 6's would only need to win about 1 in 3 times to make that a profitable call. But he'd probably fold more than 1 in 5 times (20%, or 4-to-1).

The Ace-King and Jack-Four hands are very different. Her Ace-King is a playable hand, so much less suspicious, even though she was actually behind on the turn. The turn bet was also much smaller, so less risk in her calling, even as a long shot to make the better hand with only one card left to come. Also less suspicious.

But the implied odds on her turn call in the Ace-King hand were pretty high, and he had a hand he could fold to a big river bet if she missed. Overall, her turn call was very low-risk / high-reward, but that would be hard for her to know if she wasn't working with someone who knew Garret's hole cards.

As such, I think she might have been cheating there, too.

To be fair - it's more plausible that she just got lucky in the Ace-King hand compared to the Jack-Four hand. Many players would call his $6k turn bet with Ace-King and 6-to-1 implied odds. But no one would call his >$100k all-in turn bet with Jack-Four and only 1.5-to-1 pot odds.

---

I suggest reading some of the comments under the video in the Twitter thread, linked to in that Daily Mail article. For every one saying she just made a hero call, there are many more which call out the impossibility of her play.

Also check out some of the analysis of the Postle scandal. That guy's win rate was mathematically impossible, and he was clearly cheating.

This video is longer, about 90 minutes, but early in the interview, pro player and tech guru Matt Berkey describes how it would be possible for players like Postle and Lew to be cheating, with the help of a compatriot who had access to the servers hosting the RFID info for the cards or the live video feed when the casinos are using 3rd party software to manage their live-stream of these events.






I'm not as familiar with the technology, but what I took away from Berkey's explanation was this:

1. The cards used in these live-stream events are RFID encoded, with their identifying info read by the table when they pass over a spot in front of the player.

2. The card's values and suits are sent to a server which records the cards and transmits their info to another system which (or person who) applies a graphic of the cards to the video feed for the live-stream.

3. That graphic-embedded video file is uploaded to another system which stores the video and creates the time delay for the live-stream.

4. The commentators and audience are watching hands that played out 30 minutes earlier. BUT - there are one or more vulnerabilities with the original RFID data files or graphic-embedded video file.

5. I'm not sure if Berkey was saying both of these are possible, or just one, but I took him as saying either the original video recording with the embedded graphics is still stored in a system with no time delay, which could be accessible to someone with normal login credentials (not very secure), or that the original RFID data was accessible the same way, but even more available, to anyone with the IP address for the data stream.

Berkey alluded to a handful of organizations which built their own in-house software with multiple security layers, but basically said that he had serious concerns about games being live-streamed using 3rd party software with weak security protocols.

Apparently outside Las Vegas and Atlantic City, most of the casinos live-streaming games are using such software. That would include the Hustler casino where the Lew hand took place, and the casino where Postle played.

Berkey's analysis of Postle's cheating strongly suggests Postle knew EXACTLY what his opponents had, because he was able to access the IP address for the RFID data on his phone, which was always in his lap.

I watched some other videos which noted that there were other times when he'd wear hats capable of transmitting audio directly to the inner ear via vibrations. He could have been getting detailed info from a compatriot.

His decision making was so impossibly good that the commentators took to describing him as "god-like". When the scandal broke, one commenter said he'd spent six months analyzing Postle's playing style, making him a bigger victim than the players he'd cheated.

She wasn't wearing hats nor staring into her lap, like Postle was. But there is footage of her abdomen suddenly starting to vibrate as she's deliberating a big decision, suggesting some sort of device hidden in her chair, or somewhere on her person.

It's less likely she knew EXACTLY what cards her opponents held, but still very possible she could know when she had the stronger hand. There was footage of several suspicious hands.

As an additional side-note, apparently she engaged professional player Faraz Jaka to be her coach, which points to her not just being a dumb, terrible player. Jaka's style is fairly loose-aggressive, but that's not how she played the Jack-Four hand or the Ace-King hand. Both of those hands were played loose-passive.

I think it's very possible she was cheating in the A-K hand. There's no way for me to think she was NOT cheating in that J-4 hand.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Maybe we should get back to discussing watches, before the moderators take away my birthday.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Maybe we should get back to discussing watches, before the moderators take away my birthday.


Sorry mate... it packed up and left quite some time ago.... you are now officially birthdayless...‍

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Speaking of cheating:










I feel like I’ve homaged another NTH somehow…


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Yesterday's Barracuda and today the Mack
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Yesterday I popped in, said "nope" and left. 

Wore my Nacken, tho.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...talking watches...

The new v.2 Subs are in (mostly). Check out the photos. I think the new Frost Blue came out looking really nice...









Näcken - Frost Blue - Available Exclusively at Watch Gauge


30 ATM Diving Watch, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com













Amphion - Vintage Gilt


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com













Näcken - Vintage White


30 ATM Watches, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and snowflake hands.




nthwatches.com













Scorpène - Black


30 ATM, steel bracelet with solid end links, diving bezel and sword hands.




nthwatches.com





If you're interested in getting one, they should be available to buy by late this week or early next.

However, not only are we still waiting on some of the watches to arrive from our vendor, we literally ran out of boxes while waiting on the next shipment of those.

So, if we don't have what you want on the NTH website, please do check our retailers' sites, as we made sure they all got the inventory they ordered first, leaving my own stock numbers very low, until we get those two shipments.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

More Vintage Gilt Amphions! My favorite NTH ever. A few shots of the V1, from another lifetime.


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## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Chess cheating scandal made it on Dan Patrick.





And then there is the Walleye fishing tournament mess.








Winner of fishing tournament rocked by cheating scandal hopes alleged cheaters 'get the max' penalty | CNN


One of the winners at an Ohio fishing tournament this past weekend hopes two alleged cheaters face the maximum penalty as a result of the cheating scandal that's rocked the competitive fishing world.




www.cnn.com




Dan Patrick again


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## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...talking watches...


Every time there’s a new Sub, I drool over and wanted to buy one. Then I need to calm myself down by looking at old photos of previous ones I owned: “it would look great on other people’s wrist, but looked like flying saucer on my wrist….” 🥹


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

uvalaw2005 said:


> More Vintage Gilt Amphions! My favorite NTH ever. A few shots of the V1, from another lifetime.
> 
> View attachment 16944085
> 
> ...



I am wearing mine too. I was gonna post it but I cannot hope to take a pic that captures it even half as well. Great pics


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Re: chess, poker, cheating...


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

Eh, why not. If you can't do it better, you can always try to benefit somehow from someone else's (better) work. It worked in high school anyways.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

uvalaw2005 said:


> More Vintage Gilt Amphions! My favorite NTH ever. A few shots of the V1, from another lifetime.
> 
> View attachment 16944085
> 
> ...


I would have to agree with you on this!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Y'know what would go great with those gilt dials? Bronze bezel and/or insert. Just sayin'...


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Y'know what would go great with those gilt dials? Bronze bezel and/or insert. Just sayin'...


Id love to see what that looks like.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


>




Well, gonna need that bezel insert, too. Doc, is this a new darker grey color, or is it the same as one of the vintage Nackens? 

When this and the grey WarchGecko aluminum hit the site, I gotta order four bezel inserts, I think. I've got a third NTH sub I'm about to dig into. 

By the way, does anyone with a V2 case want a V1 case and some cash?


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

RotorRonin said:


> Well, gonna need that bezel insert, too. Doc, is this a new darker grey color, or is it the same as one of the vintage Nackens?
> 
> When this and the grey WarchGecko aluminum hit the site, I gotta order four bezel inserts, I think. I've got a third NTH sub I'm about to dig into.
> 
> By the way, does anyone with a V2 case want a V1 case and some cash?


You buy that Frost, and I buy the dial off you. That way you can get the V2 case and the bezel insert... and I get that dial in my V1 case 😇


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Well, gonna need that bezel insert, too. Doc, is this a new darker grey color, or is it the same as one of the vintage Nackens?
> 
> When this and the grey WarchGecko aluminum hit the site, I gotta order four bezel inserts, I think. I've got a third NTH sub I'm about to dig into.
> 
> By the way, does anyone with a V2 case want a V1 case and some cash?


It's just a clear-coat with white lume, like the Dolphin inserts.

I don't know why they all seem to look darker in some images. Maybe it's the circular brushing. Or maybe the clear-coat somehow makes them look darker.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Unmolested Zwaardvis for sale (not my listing), in case anyone's been looking for one...









FS: NTH Zwaardvis w/ date sub


FS: NTH Zwaardvis orange dial sub with date 9015 movement Bracelet with extra links Specs in pics Selling for $450 shipped via USPS Priority in the CONUS. Payment by PayPal F&F or please add 4% for GNS. Venmo also accepted. Sent from my SM-F936U using Tapatalk




www.watchuseek.com


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's just a clear-coat with white lume, like the Dolphin inserts.
> 
> I don't know why they all seem to look darker in some images. Maybe it's the circular brushing. Or maybe the clear-coat somehow makes them look darker.


Interesting. So, are the Dolphin and Barracuda polar the same color (as in, no color but the clear coat)?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Interesting. So, are the Dolphin and Barracuda polar the same color (as in, no color but the clear coat)?


So...once you asked this question, I started to doubt my memory about what color we spec'd for the Frost Blue. I just checked, and we did spec the same color used on the Dolphins.

The Barracuda Polar White is the same color.

I'm pretty sure they're right, not a different color. This pic shows the bezel a little lighter.










Plus, I saw the Frost Blue with my own eyes. If it had a bezel color I wasn't expecting, I'd have noticed it, I think. That titanium color we used is different enough to be noticeably different. Think about the Watch Gecko DevilRay which uses it. They're close, but not that close.

"Titanium" color outer scale, un-coated brushed stainless on the inner scale:









Next time I'm up at Dan's, I'll compare one of the frost blue's to his wife's Dolphin.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


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## pedro0223 (Aug 11, 2012)

#NTHursday
On a Barton Strap, I think it pairs nicely.









Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

Does anyone have experience with one of these?

20MM CUSTOM MADE OYSTER BAND GLIDE-LOCK BUCKLE BAND BRACELET FOR NTH DIVER WATCH | eBay 

I think a tool-less quick adjust bracelet is just what my Nacken needs if the bracelet is decent.


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Aluminum bezel inserts are up on watchgecko. 

NTH Watches


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.
















Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Any of my fellow NTH thread regulars interested in a literally brand new Natural Brown Horween CXL belt? Size 40, _just_ too small for me. 

The customer service seems to be ignoring my return request, and before I go initiate a charge back, I figured I'd see if any of y'all might be interested. 

Awesome belt, tbh. It just don't fit. Lemme know if interested.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Interesting. So, are the Dolphin and Barracuda polar the same color (as in, no color but the clear coat)?


I checked one of the Frost Blues against Dan's wife's Dolphin yesterday. The inserts are the same color (no color), as is the Barracuda Polar White insert.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Any of my fellow NTH thread regulars interested in a literally brand new Natural Brown Horween CXL belt? Size 40, _just_ too small for me.
> 
> The customer service seems to be ignoring my return request, and before I go initiate a charge back, I figured I'd see if any of y'all might be interested.
> 
> Awesome belt, tbh. It just don't fit. Lemme know if interested.


Too much of that Texas BBQ...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Caltex88 said:


> Does anyone have experience with one of these?
> 
> 20MM CUSTOM MADE OYSTER BAND GLIDE-LOCK BUCKLE BAND BRACELET FOR NTH DIVER WATCH | eBay
> 
> I think a tool-less quick adjust bracelet is just what my Nacken needs if the bracelet is decent.


I had something like that... but sold it along in short order. 

7" wrist, I like the clasp more toward 6, and too few removable links on that side, combined with the long clasp, just didn't do it for me. 
Also, a complaint some have entertained about the NTH 3-link bracelet is the male endlinks, their preference being female endlinks - this bracelet doesn't address that issue. 
Finally, it's a pretty standard (1-link) oyster-style bracelet. I like the fit and feel of the NTH 3-link better. 

All that said, fit at the lugs was really good, and it was a quality bracelet, no doubt.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sgtlmj said:


> Aluminum bezel inserts are up on watchgecko.
> 
> NTH Watches
> 
> View attachment 16950346


We'll get ours up soon. Dan and I have been too busy with other stuff.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Caltex88 said:


> Does anyone have experience with one of these?
> 
> 20MM CUSTOM MADE OYSTER BAND GLIDE-LOCK BUCKLE BAND BRACELET FOR NTH DIVER WATCH | eBay
> 
> I think a tool-less quick adjust bracelet is just what my Nacken needs if the bracelet is decent.





mconlonx said:


> I had something like that... but sold it along in short order.
> 
> 7" wrist, I like the clasp more toward 6, and too few removable links on that side, combined with the long clasp, just didn't do it for me.
> Also, a complaint some have entertained about the NTH 3-link bracelet is the male endlinks, their preference being female endlinks - this bracelet doesn't address that issue.
> ...


You could always just buy the clasp, if that's what you're after. Pretty sure they're sold online, too. 

Preferring my bracelets to be a little loose, I never need a quick-adjust mechanism in the clasp. Without having the lack of one as a complaint, I think our oyster bracelets are pretty comfortable. 

It would be awesome if those expansion clasps weren't so dang long and thick.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> You could always just buy the clasp, if that's what you're after. Pretty sure they're sold online, too.
> 
> Preferring my bracelets to be a little loose, I never need a quick-adjust mechanism in the clasp. Without having the lack of one as a complaint, I think our oyster bracelets are pretty comfortable.
> 
> It would be awesome if those expansion clasps weren't so dang long and thick.


At least with the clasps I've fondled, it's not a plug and play kind of deal. Maybe there are such clasps out there, but nothing among the easily sourced that I've found. (Someone will post an AliX or eBay link to prove me wrong...)

I never really make adjustments past setting the bracelet up in the first place. If I do, it's a longer term deal, and playing with regular micro adjust holes and a springbar is no big deal. Very willing to give up on the fly, tool-less adjustability for better fit and more comfortable wear.

Of course to that end, even on the NTH, I swapped out to an older style stamped clasp, rather than the v1.2 bracelet milled clasp...


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

Thanks all for the input! I really like the stock bracelet. I live in Texas, and oftentimes the watch fits quite differently after a few hours at the ballpark than it does when working at the office, and on another watch of mine, the quick adjust has come to be really convenient. It sounds like these bulky adjust clasps don't come without sacrifices of their own, however.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Too much of that Texas BBQ...


Genetics had a lil bit to do with it. 
6'3, 235lbs, my dude. 
But yeah. The BBQ doesn't help.


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## garydusa (Jan 16, 2013)

*Lew & Huey …and “Sparky” the Dog!












































“You can Beat Me Down, but I’ll Keep Coming Back” (CV)*


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Genetics had a lil bit to do with it.
> 6'3, 235lbs, my dude.
> But yeah. The BBQ doesn't help.


That sounds fairl height - weight proportional.

And ain't many men got a will strong enough to resist good BBQ.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

garydusa said:


> “You can Beat Me Down, but I’ll Keep Coming Back” (CV)


I think the credit for me being a glutton for punishment goes to an older cousin who kicked my butt at least a dozen times when we were growing up. Getting the better of him twice was sweet enough to keep me from being scared of a beat-down.

True story - he stepped up to be best man at my wedding when my best friend at the time couldn't commit to the date. Despite the fact that he was born an a-hole and never grew out of it, he was truly great that day, the best version of himself. Next time I saw him, he was back to being an a-hole, and once or twice since, I've thought about throat-punching him.

Thanks for reminding me to be me, my friend. 

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

uvalaw2005 said:


> More Vintage Gilt Amphions! My favorite NTH ever. A few shots of the V1, from another lifetime.
> 
> Almost as good as this classic No.13/40


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TbM with the vintage blue nacken









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

V.2 Amphion Vintage Gilt, Näcken Modern Blue, Näcken Vintage White, and Scorpène are all available for purchase on the NTH site now.









NTH Subs


NTH, pronounced either “Enth” or “N-T-H”, is about acknowledging the past with a “Nod to History”, but also looking forward, exploring our limits, and taking things as far as we can, to the “Nth degree”, where “N” represents infinite possibility.




nthwatches.com


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Todaro Tuesday
















Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> V.2 Amphion Vintage Gilt, Näcken Modern Blue, Näcken Vintage White, and Scorpène are all available for purchase on the NTH site now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These + Mack = too much good NTH out, all at the same time...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> These + Mack = too much good NTH out, all at the same time...


Don't forget the Näcken Frost Blue for Watch Gauge, the Vanguards for Long Island Watch, the Ancora D'Oro for the BSH guys, and the Watch Gecko Subs.

Still got GMT DevilRays coming, too.

That'll be it for this year, though. Then I gotta get back to working on that non-diver for next year.

So much work to do, so little time to get it done.


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## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Lew & Huey Orthor Commander 300 today.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Don't forget the Näcken Frost Blue for Watch Gauge, the Vanguards for Long Island Watch, the Ancora D'Oro for the BSH guys, and the Watch Gecko Subs.
> 
> Still got GMT DevilRays coming, too.
> 
> ...


Are the Vanguard different from before?

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Are the Vanguard different from before?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Before they were v.1's, all on oyster. Now they're v.2's, all on BOR. 

Otherwise, no change.


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## Brey17 (Mar 29, 2016)




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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)




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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

I time and time again choose this over my Tudor BB58 Blue. DOnt get me wrong I love my BB58, but my Amphion is my most comfy and versatile every day watch. And, I just love this dial! of the 3 NTH subs ive owned, this is my favorite.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PowerChucker said:


> I time and time again choose this over my Tudor BB58 Blue. DOnt get me wrong I love my BB58, but my Amphion is my most comfy and versatile every day watch. And, I just love this dial! of the 3 NTH subs ive owned, this is my favorite.


Do your other watches know you have favorites?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh...

Just had a very nice email exchange with a chap in the UK. He's got a first-production Amphion Vintage Black (the one with the sandpaper dial, from 2016), and he's planning to buy one of the new Watch Gecko Subs.

Nice guy. Very complimentary towards me and NTH. All smiles. Then he hits me...

He's a regular on TZ-UK, the forum run by another brand owner, who, shall we say...isn't my biggest fan. He wants to post a review of the WG Sub there.

Oof. 

Had to tell him, I appreciate the offer, but that may not go over very well. 

Said it before, I'll say it again - this is such a strange business sometimes. 

It's like West Side Story, except, you know, without all the snapping fingers, switchblades, singing, dancing, and leaping about.


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

docvail said:


> He's a regular on TZ-UK, the forum run by another brand owner, who, shall we say...isn't my biggest fan. He wants to post a review of the WG Sub there.


What? I'm sure E.P. will be very gracious as always.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sgtlmj said:


> What? I'm sure E.P. will be very gracious as always.


Surely.


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

NTH Nacken today:


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## TheDuke1979 (May 11, 2015)

Hi all, 
New to the group and the brand, looks like some great watches here.
In the market for a polar white Barracuda if anyone is interested in parting with one, ping me a DM.
All the best!


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheDuke1979 said:


> Hi all,
> New to the group and the brand, looks like some great watches here.
> In the market for a polar white Barracuda if anyone is interested in parting with one, ping me a DM.
> All the best!


Were you the same person who commented on mine recently on FB?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Pharos Phriday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

PowerChucker said:


> I time and time again choose this over my Tudor BB58 Blue. DOnt get me wrong I love my BB58, but my Amphion is my most comfy and versatile every day watch. And, I just love this dial! of the 3 NTH subs ive owned, this is my favorite.
> View attachment 16962175
> 
> View attachment 16962176
> ...


I'm wearing mine right now  and your excellent pictures saved me the hassle 
I agree with you 100 percent. 
All the elements of this watch just work VERY well together.
Have a great weekend!


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## TheDuke1979 (May 11, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Were you the same person who commented on mine recently on FB?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yes


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

docvail said:


> Do your other watches know you have favorites?


I try not to hurt their feelings, otherwise they start to run fast, or slow, or not at all.. fickle bunch they are.


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## Cowboytime (Oct 13, 2019)

she is a looker


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cowboytime said:


> she is a looker
> View attachment 16966773
> View attachment 16967302


First pics I've seen of one in the wild.

(No, you don't win any sort of prize.)

Thanks for your purchase. Glad you like it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble (by which I mean mechanical issues, not changing all the radio pre-sets in your car or wearing your bathrobe). 

Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)

Squandering a beautiful afternoon, watching Canucks vs Flyers.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

MuckyMark said:


> Squandering a beautiful afternoon, watching Canucks vs Flyers.


It's going to be one of those seasons for the Canucks. It's one of those years where all my teams suck or struck out...Canucks..rubbish. Raiders even more rubbish given they were supposed to be contending this year. Notre Dame started top 10 and now not even ranked. Dodgers just got booted and my aussie rules team always found a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and just finished outside of the finals...after losing the last two games by less than a point...

I think I'll go eat worm's...

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

Cowboytime said:


> she is a looker
> View attachment 16966773
> View attachment 16967302



That would be a killer insert for a Näcken Modern/Vintage Blue as well.


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## SchlachterSchmidt (Jun 6, 2020)

sgtlmj said:


> That would be a killer insert for a Näcken Modern/Vintage Blue as well.


i think you just gave me an idea


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> i think you just gave me an idea


Modifying a/an Nth watch would be crazy.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Kinesis said:


> Modifying a/an Nth watch would be crazy.


Absolutely


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

^Ooh la lah! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Changed my mind about the bracelet.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Monday









Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Johnboy0103 (Jun 25, 2017)

sgtlmj said:


> Aluminum bezel inserts are up on watchgecko.
> 
> NTH Watches
> 
> View attachment 16950346


Can anyone confirm if these are lumed with c3 or bgw9? I assume these will fit an odin?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Johnboy0103 said:


> Can anyone confirm if these are lumed with c3 or bgw9? I assume these will fit an odin?


Neither, and they will.

The lume is like a khaki color.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> Absolutely
> View attachment 16970353


Sheer insanity!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

SchlachterSchmidt said:


> i think you just gave me an idea


Just waiting for it to hit the shop with the WG inserts!


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

> Neither, and they will.
> 
> The lume is like a khaki color.


Is it a standard-ish sized pip hole? (<---) Lots of white pips on eBay for pretty cheap.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

sgtlmj said:


> standard-ish sized pip hole? (<---)


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Cause spring has sprung down here... and it's warming up at last..









Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## 62caster (Apr 13, 2011)

Can somebody give me the quick and dirty on NTH? Background, history, etc?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Cause spring has sprung down here... and it's warming up at last..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Warming up at last," he says...

People also ask ​​How cold does Victoria get in winter?​​Temperatures average from *8 – 14 ºC (46 – 57 ºF) but can drop down to freezing overnight*. Cherry blossoms, locally known as 'Victoria Snow', blanket the city while the majority of Canadians are still shoveling actual snow.​_







_​
Wow....average winter temps in the mid-40's to high-50's with lovely cherry blossoms...I don't know how you do it every year...

Come to Philly in winter, and see the measures people take to defend a parking spot they cleared of snow...









Just a sampling of the solutions people have concocted...










The owner of this chair will come home to find it "blew away"...









Free step-ladder anyone?









Neighbors playing a game of "whose spot gets stolen?"









I guess my shirts aren't getting ironed until Srping...









Girl, girl, girl, you gonna set me on fire...but if you steal my spot, I will slash your tires...









Crackhead Barbie...









Thanks for spending 90 minutes shoveling. You saved me 15 minutes looking for a spot...









Cancer? Pregnancy? Shoulda gotten sick and knocked up your wife in some other town, pal...









The end of innocence...









It be what? (It be war!)









This is genius. Take a toxic-waste barrel and fill it with snow. It'll take two people to move it. No chance old Mrs. Smith steals your spot...









Our father, who shoveled this spot, hallowed be his name....









Not the hero we need, but probably the one we deserve...









And so his watch begins...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

62caster said:


> Can somebody give me the quick and dirty on NTH? Background, history, etc?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The brand was started in Switzerland, in 1892, by Urhlich Von Baggenhoffen....

Just kidding.

The business has been producing watches since 2013, first under the Lew & Huey brand, then as NTH (since 2016). Based near Philadelphia.


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## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

^Ah yes, UVB, was also a champion yodeler. This thread just keeps on giving…


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## blitzoid (Jan 21, 2016)

62caster said:


> Can somebody give me the quick and dirty on NTH? Background, history, etc?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a side hustle providing a stream of income for an amateur poker player who has a magical ability to write 1000 words on just about any topic. (how'd I do?)


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

blitzoid said:


> It's a side hustle providing a stream of income for an amateur poker player who has a magical ability to write 1000 words on just about any topic. (how'd I do?)


Sounds about right.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

WIS: "Have you heard of chess?"
Doc: (eleventy thousand words... about poker)

New Guy: "Tell me about the company you founded."
Doc: (twenty three words, not one of which describes NTH's positives or even mention that Doc's the owner)


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

You ESP'ed me. I actually counted the 23 words.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> WIS: "Have you heard of chess?"
> Doc: (eleventy thousand words... about poker)
> 
> New Guy: "Tell me about the company you founded."
> Doc: (twenty three words, not one of which describes NTH's positives or even mention that Doc's the owner)


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

blitzoid said:


> It's a side hustle providing a stream of income for an amateur poker player who has a magical ability to write 1000 words on just about any topic. (how'd I do?)


Dude...I'm lonely, and once you get tired of all the argle-bargle, talking about watches gets boring.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Dude...I'm lonely, and once you get tired of all the argle-bargle, talking about watches gets boring.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> "Warming up at last," he says...
> 
> People also ask ​​How cold does Victoria get in winter?​​Temperatures average from *8 – 14 ºC (46 – 57 ºF) but can drop down to freezing overnight*. Cherry blossoms, locally known as 'Victoria Snow', blanket the city while the majority of Canadians are still shoveling actual snow.​_
> 
> ...


That thread is priceless. Illustrating a global tendency, also known in the UK as 'Get orfff my land'! usually said by some bloke in a flat cap, straw in mouth and broken open shotgun over his arm!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

starwasp said:


> That thread is priceless. Illustrating a global tendency, also known in the UK as 'Get orfff my land'! usually said by some bloke in a flat cap, straw in mouth and broken open shotgun over his arm!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

eBay: "Whatcha want?"

Noob WIS: "Gimme the affordable watches starter pack."

eBay: "Say no more..."









Lot of 11 Collector's Mens Watches w/ Extra Bands ++ Seiko NTH Hamilton Lorier | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lot of 11 Collector's Mens Watches w/ Extra Bands ++ Seiko NTH Hamilton Lorier at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

An update on the Mack, for those interested...

Brian's daughter, Ashley, used some of the money from GiveSendGo to start a side-hustle business on Etsy. You can see it here - SockChemist - Etsy

I sent her one of the photo samples, and put the other one into my own collection, leaving 48 for sale. Of those, we've sold all but the last 16 pieces (which are still available on my site, for those who said they wanted one, but didn't make an immediate purchase).

Some of the sales were through my own site, some through my retailers. Some of the units my retailers bought are still available - check Watch Gecko and Serious Watches, those of you in the UK or EU.

(EDIT - actually, it doesn't look like Watch Gecko even has the Mack up on their site yet, and Serious is down to one piece, just FYI.)

I can't demand my retailers give away a portion of their revenue just because I am, and I can't give away as much when I'm selling wholesale. But, a portion of all sales (direct and wholesale) so far have gone directly to Mack's family, and I'm happy to say that in accordance with my suggestion / request, a portion of the sales from most of the retailers' sales will also go to organizations that benefit veterans. 

One of Watch Gecko's magazine staffers appears to be some sort of former "secret squirrel" type who did some sort of work for the UK government, which he can't confirm nor deny nor explain in any detail whatsoever. I had a zoom chat with him a couple of months ago. While it's not impossible someone could BS me, I know the type, and he fits the type, so I think he's legit (more on that in my next post).

Anyhoo...he reached out to me about the Mack last week, and said they were eyeing up some org that looks after the families of fallen UK spec ops troops (SSAFA, the Armed Forces charity), which is very much on-brand for the spirit of the Mack, and I am 100% certain Brian would approve. I'm pretty sure Mack was there when our Ranger unit did a jump-wing exchange with some British paratroopers, and even if not, it's the UK, our closest military ally, it's spec ops, etc. How could he quibble, after hammering me with "don't sweat the small $hlt"?

Keep an eye on the Watch Gecko online magazine for a feature on the Mack, coming soon (likely the end of this week).

Not because anyone's asked the indelicate question, but because I can imagine some might wonder, I'll explain what constitutes "a portion" of the revenue...

For all direct sales through my website, it works out to be ~44% of the revenue (which I'll explain). For all wholesale sales (sales through retailers), it's $100 per unit (ditto).

Not sure I explained this before, but when I started working on the Mack, with a plan to donate a portion of the proceeds, I asked my accountant and business attorney for advice, vis-a-vis, if it would make sense to set up some sort of non-profit in Mack's name, knowing that if we just donated the proceeds to any random org, we wouldn't have any control over the ultimate use of those funds, and as a result, Mack's family likely wouldn't get any of it.

I don't mind supporting veterans' orgs like the Wounded Warrior Project. I've done various giveaways to benefit those orgs in the past. But in this instance, I felt strongly that the best way to make a real impact on anyone's life would be to make sure that all of the money went directly to someone, without any administrative cost haircuts, and I wanted that someone to be Mack's family.

I was advised that the costs of setting up our own org didn't make sense. It would make more sense for me to just pay taxes on the profits from those sales, and simply cut a check to Mack's family with what was left over, up to the annual gift-tax exclusion amount.

I had to do some math, trying to figure out based on past history what my after-tax profit would be, and came up with those two figures - 44% on direct sales, and $100 per unit on sales through retailers.

Is it a boat-load of money? No, not really. You can do some of your own back-of-the-envelope math and come up with a range of figures. It won't buy anyone a car, much less a house, nor pay for college. But it is the sort of amount that can really help someone who got dealt a bad hand in the poker game of life, and is just grinding it out ever since.

If you don't want or can't buy a Mack, but would like to help, the GiveSendGo campaign is still an option - https://www.givesendgo.com/themack.

Thank you again, to everyone who bought a Mack, and to everyone who supports the GiveSendGo. Mack's family is sincerely grateful for your help.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Vail's rule-of-thumb scale for how full of $hlt people who want you to think they're former spec-ops operators really are:

*High BS:* _"I used to be an intelligence officer."_

Seriously, no one who was actually an operator would EVER say that. You're full of $hlt, Francis. Do push-ups until you die.

*Medium BS:* _"I used to do some work for the government...but I can't talk about it."_

Nice try. What you mean is you worked in some support role for people who might have done something dangerous. Go fetch me some coffee.

*Low BS:* _"I spent some time overseas doing some work for a government sub-contractor (or NGO). Nothing spooky. Mostly just logistics-type stuff, IT support, et cetera."_

Holy $hlt! How many legitimate governments did you help topple? How tight was your last grouping at the pistol range? You're not fooling me with the down-playing it here. I know you didn't get those forearms setting up server farms. What's your poison? I don't mean what you drink. I mean literally, what poison do you prefer to use? It's potassium chloride, isn't it? It's always potassium chloride. Makes it look like a garden-variety heart attack, and totally undetectable by an autopsy, amirite?


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’ve done some work for the Alberta government..


Waste water treatment plants don’t maintain themselves… 


Not BS, but definitely HS…


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Vail's rule-of-thumb scale for how full of $hlt people who want you to think they're former spec-ops operators really are:
> 
> *High BS:* _"I used to be an intelligence officer."_
> 
> ...



Typical yanks, using something expensive and complicated like poison when your targets could just 'fall downstairs / fall out of windows' like the Russian targets seem to.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Vail's rule-of-thumb scale for how full of $hlt people who want you to think they're former spec-ops operators really are:
> 
> *High BS:* _"I used to be an intelligence officer."_


I still am an intelligence analyst... does that count?  I've got some bits of paper to prove it...

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

starwasp said:


> Typical yanks, using something expensive and complicated like poison when your targets could just 'fall downstairs / fall out of windows' like the Russian targets seem to.


My favorites are always the more dubiously creative suicides...

"He died in a car explosion...appears to be suicide....plane crash...suicide...drowned in his jacuzzi....suicide...drawn and quartered...clear case of suicide..."


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Doc is the new Hans Wilsdorf.
Discontinued NTH Santa Cruz.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Doc is the new Hans Wilsdorf.
> Discontinued NTH Santa Cruz.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heard back from Watch Gecko. This is the org they're directing their donations from Mack sales to - SSAFA, the Armed Forces charity


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

I will buy a Mack. Somehow.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The NTH “Mack” Sub – Made for a brother in arms


At WatchGecko we are very proud of our relationship with NTH Watches from the USA. As we highlighted in a recent review of the NTH Näcken Modern Blue they are first class tool watches, with a strong look and are very competitively priced. The creator behind NTH is a US military veteran called...




www.watchgecko.com


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Currently on a two week business trip to the US. I am in Chicago wandering around the river. I decided to take my blue Amphi-cudda.









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Here is one you don't see too often.....wore this a few days ago...










 And.... I won't forget to mention......

_*Good Job, Doc.*_


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Money making Mack Monday









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NOT MY LISTING!

Anyone looking for a v.1 Tropics? 

Full lume white, skeleton hands, Swiss STP movement, BOR bracelet with expansion clasp...









NTH Antilles - Full Lume Dial - $425


I'm selling my NTH Antilles to help fund a larger purchase. This is one that I thought I would keep, but gotta fund the next one! NTH is a very well respected micro brand that used to be called Lew & Huey. This is, in my opinion, the best colorway of their best watch. I love the...




www.watchuseek.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> eBay: "Whatcha want?"
> 
> Noob WIS: "Gimme the affordable watches starter pack."
> 
> ...


Final / winning bid = $2674, or just $243 per watch.

That's not bad for a complete, affordable, WIS-approved collection.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> An update on the Mack, for those interested...
> 
> Brian's daughter, Ashley, used some of the money from GiveSendGo to start a side-hustle business on Etsy. You can see it here - SockChemist - Etsy
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Etsy link. Just ordered some socks!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random ramblings...

Every so often, I get hit in the face by reality. More often than not, my instincts about various things are proven right...

In late 2020, I started doing business with an entity. Things started out great, at first. But as time wore on, small fractures started to appear. My expectations weren't being met. Trying to express that brought deflection, even an attempt to reverse the blame.

Eventually, I figured the connection was severed. But recently, when I was impertinent enough to ask if that was the situation, the reaction was surprisingly hostile, leading me to review our past dealings. Perhaps we just had some miscommunication, yet my instincts suggested I'd been lied to.

Today I see that entity is now out of business. Not just out of business, but apparently left some of its customers high-and-dry. Some of those customers' online comments would seem to support my suspicion - that the guy who ran the biz, the guy I'd been dealing with, wasn't capable of being entirely honest.

It's not the first time a business "partner" lied to me. It's at least the fifth or sixth time. Surely it won't be the last. My BS detector just gets more fine-tuned with each new data sample...

When I started my business, I never intended to spend a lot on digital advertising. All my investigations into it suggested it would be wasted investment. My main thesis was that the more you advertised online, the less effective and the more expensive it would become over time, for three main reasons...

First, initial ad spend would be most likely to capture the "low-hanging fruit" (the easiest customers to reach and acquire). Subsequent customers would be harder to reach and acquire, and thus require incrementally more ad spend. Secondly, as more competitors enter the field, and the main ad platforms become more consolidated, there'd be more advertisers bidding on the same digital "real estate", which would drive ad costs up. Lastly, whenever Google or Facebook wants to juice their profits, all they need to do is "change the algorithm" (read: increase their ad rates).

But, eventually, I let a digital ad agency convince me otherwise, and I wasted at least $100k in digital ad spend over the next four years. I've since gone back to my original opinion. Yet here and there, I'll see some competitors' ads (or some friendly competitor will SWEAR to me that they're getting a positive ROI from their ad spend), and I'll wonder if I've been wrong...

Earlier this week, one of my retailers, who apparently has some means of knowing what some "big players" are spending on digital ads, told me that he recently saw a big increase in online ad spend from said big players.

To him, it was an indication that all is not well within the industry...








Today I spoke to the head of my marketing team, and also to a former competitor. Both told me that both Facebook and Google made some big changes ("to their algorithm") recently. Those changes have tilted the playing field in favor of big companies that spend LOTS of money on digital ads, and now the cost-effectiveness of digital ad spend for smaller players has decreased, a lot (if it ever even existed).

O. M. G. Who could have seen this coming? This is my shocked face.








That same former competitor, who recently sold his business, also told me the new owners of the business ignored a lot of the guidance he gave them, and are apparently now struggling. No wonder. No one listens to good advice, it seems...

There were other revelatory tidbits in today's convo, too. After a few years of comparing / sharing strategies and methodologies, our business paths diverged. He made a lot of decisions I wouldn't have made. Most of the biggest were against my advice.

On the surface, his results seemed to validate his decisions, and invalidate my guidance. And yet, today, he as much as admitted that I was right all along - he pushed too hard, scaled too quickly, took on too much debt, etc, etc, etc.

A few years back, I got the idea for Microbrand University after becoming frustrated with seeing so many people who asked me for my advice do exactly the opposite of what I advised them to do. We stopped doing Microbrand University in part because I became frustrated with seeing so many people who paid for our advice do exactly the opposite of what we advised them to do.

Go back and re-read that if it doesn't make sense. Keep reading it until it does.

I recently spent about 8 hours over the course of 2-3 weeks, giving advice to someone who asked for it, and who seemed receptive to it. About halfway into that time, I learned something that made most of the advice I'd been giving him unfortunately useless, due to his circumstances. So I changed course, and tried to make the advice more practical, given my new understanding of those circumstances.

I'm waiting to see the results. I'm hoping for the best, for his sake, but prepared for the worst, given that he wasn't able to put any of my best advice into action. I'm hoping to hear things are going well regardless.

It would be a nice change of pace to find my instincts were wrong. I'm not being sarcastic. Being right as much as I am is depressing. I keep hoping to find someone who can show me a better way to do what I'm doing, so I can take his advice, and ignore my instincts. But so far, my instincts have been the best guide available to me.


----------



## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

Relying on your instincts...especially if they are good, finely tuned, and tried & true,
sounds pretty SMART to me. I do the same thing. And it has served me well.


docvail said:


> pushed too hard, scaled too quickly, took on too much debt, etc, etc, etc.


I remember there was a small company about 25 years ago that was SO successful.
They had great profit margins and high demand. I remember thinking 
to myself: wow, what a great niche. And being a little envious.
Then, they started expanding like crazy and opening up several different locations
one after the other. I couldn't understand how they were growing so fast.
And then all of the sudden, they went bankrupt and went out of business.
One day I walked past and it wasn't there any more. And I felt bad for them.
How did they mess up such a good thing? And I wasn't envious anymore.

I am thankful for my success and realize that sometimes slow & steady wins the race.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Random ramblings...
> 
> Every so often, I get hit in the face by reality. More often than not, my instincts about various things are proven right...
> 
> ...



This post made me think about every friend that I have ever had the "you do not NEED a credit card, and you definitely no not NEED to leave an outstanding balance" conversation with......to which they almost universally decided "I need a CC with some outstanding balance to help my credit score"

Some length of time before I got the "Can I borrow some money..." or "How do you payoff a credit card?" phone call


----------



## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> people who paid for our advice do exactly the opposite of what we advised them to do.
> 
> Go back and re-read that if it doesn't make sense. Keep reading it until it does.


I tried the re-reading, to no avail. 

Do you observe if that immunity to advice is an age thing? Biased towards older or younger people?
I have a lot of respect for and trust in my young colleagues, for example, and "potential for disappointment" is spread evenly across all individuals. One gets to hear anecdotal stories, though, and the stereotypes go both ways: stubborn get-off-my-lawn mentality for older people, and I-know-better-because-I-understand-modern-stuff/culture/tech.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> I tried the re-reading, to no avail.


No avail? Really? It's a running gag in my family that my parents almost named me Noah Vail.

I started charging for my advice because the people who got it for free ignored it. I stopped charging for it because the people who paid for it also ignored it. Both were frustrating. 

One cost me time. The other ended up costing me a small amount of money. But mostly, both were just frustrating, so I decided I just didn't want to be bothered with giving people advice any more.

Conceptually, Microbrand University was a business that could conceivably make money, if we grew it. Covid slowed us down from continuing, but I'm thankful for it. 

The lockdowns gave me the pause I needed to review results and see that I'd have to commit a lot more time, energy and money, and endure a lot more frustration, before I ever felt like the concept was validated enough to warrant my investment of time, energy, and money into it.

What's both ironic and sadly predictable is how many people asked about it AFTER we stopped running MBU sessions. I've had people ask me to be their startup coach or consultant, or whatever, but I just don't have it in me. 

It's not a question of money. Very few people would be willing to pay me what I'd need to charge to keep me from thinking about what an exercise in futility I'd be embarking on, and not care about the inevitable feeling of frustration I'd have, seeing yet another person ignore the very advice they paid me to give them.

Anyone who would be willing to pay me that much has too much money, and wouldn't have enough motivation to put the necessary work into a business like this for such meager short-term rewards. Anyone with that much money is likely to think they're smarter than me, and can spend their way to a faster-growing business.

But honestly, having more money available wouldn't make the business more successful. It would just create more temptation to waste money in an effort to avoid hard work.



VH944 said:


> Do you observe if that immunity to advice is an age thing? Biased towards older or younger people?
> I have a lot of respect for and trust in my young colleagues, for example, and "potential for disappointment" is spread evenly across all individuals. One gets to hear anecdotal stories, though, and the stereotypes go both ways: stubborn get-off-my-lawn mentality for older people, and I-know-better-because-I-understand-modern-stuff/culture/tech.


I see it across the spectrum. Generally, it's easier to blame younger folks for being naive or over-confident than it is to figure out how some old fart managed to live so long while being so amazingly incompetent.

I suppose finding a way to navigate life despite clear incompetence is a skill in itself. Perhaps it's one which would lead someone to level of confidence inflated enough for them to think they ought to start a business with a high risk of failure.

Then again, I do notice the younger cohort trying to short-circuit the business growth using technology or by way of leveraging other people's money, which I don't think works very well. What you end up with is a low-yield business that relies too much on expensive technology or burns money faster because it has more money to burn.

One thing I see over and over is a certain degree of "I'll be that guy" mentality. 

Given a lack of resources, a lack of preparation, and a lack of proven skill (not to be confused with a proven lack of skill), many who start seem to think that this is either much easier than it is, or that they'll somehow be the guy to break all the rules and be successful where so many others have failed due to similar deficiencies.

The hope for success in that scenario is no different than the hope of retiring on a lottery windfall. Yeah, it COULD happen, but I wouldn't bet on it happening.

My business wasn't successful because I broke all the rules. I saw most of the industry was failing because so many businesses seemed to be ignoring the rules, which is to say, the fundamentals.

Basic things like putting a product people could buy in front of them and asking them to buy it. Earning a profit for the product and service. You know...like...a real business.

I didn't break the rules. I applied them.

It helped that I had a background in sales and finance, and hadn't spent years on watch forums, being indoctrinated into WIS mythology. I knew enough about business in general, but almost nothing about the WATCH business in particular, which I think saved me. 

Thinking you know all about the watch business because you know all about watches gets a lot of startups into trouble. I've read a lot about cars, and owned a few dozen. That doesn't qualify me to start a car company.

It doesn't even qualify me to start a blog about them, but don't get me started down that path...


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Watches are kewl 









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I wasted at least $100k in digital ad spend over the next four years.


I'm pretty sure I've never seen an NTH ad (unless you're counting WUS sponsorship), and I spend a LOT of time perusing watch stuff on the interwebs, with no attempt to hide my trail; so if I didn't see those NTH ads, who did???


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Well, that was quite an answer, thank you!

I am not sure if the "avail" thing is something good or not - don't be offended if I brought up your upbringing... my apologies, if appropriate?


A couple of good points I hadn't seen yet: that more (and especially "free") money can simply increase the throughput but the "efficiency" might even drop - sounds like a scaling problem in industrial chemistry. It's all fine in a beaker but you can't just go and do "exactly the same" in a swimming pool. Money is just a reaction product, mind blown! 
I am skeptic about the application of new tech without clear benefits, but I wouldn't have considered it as a disproportionate money burner. There I go...

Some aspects of the University are typical teaching/schooling: you didn't mention the pretentiousness, air of entitlement, and reverse blaming (I failed the test because my teacher didn't prepare me well enoug) ...

And this - pure quote calenda wisdom gold:


docvail said:


> I suppose finding a way to navigate life despite clear incompetence is a skill in itself.


I won't pay you for this, but I buy your stuff every now and then, I hope that's alright.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> I'm pretty sure I've never seen an NTH ad (unless you're counting WUS sponsorship), and I spend a LOT of time perusing watch stuff on the interwebs, with no attempt to hide my trail; so if I didn't see those NTH ads, who did???


The money I spent on digital ads was for Lew & Huey, not NTH. If you didn't see them, then you didn't see them, but we're talking about ads we ran from 2014 through 2018, before I hired my current marketing team.

Also - do you use an ad-blocker on your browser? A lot of people do, which just confounds digital advertisers in their efforts to figure out various metrics. You might not have seen the ads because you were blocking them.

Here and there, we have done some very limited retargeting advertising for NTH, but when I say "very limited", I mean, so little you wouldn't have been very likely to see the ads. It didn't make sense to retarget people who'd visited our site if we didn't have any inventory to sell, which was often the case between 2018 and 2021.

Why lure someone back to the site if what they want isn't in stock on our site? It was only within the last year that we started to have most if not all SKUs in stock and available for direct purchase through the NTH website.

The ads we ran for L&H were mostly display ads on the Google ad network, with some limited experimentation on Facebook and one or two other ad networks, like Bing or Yahoo. Watches are an emotional purchase, so it made more sense to use visual ads than keyword / search ads. The campaign was a mix of retargeting ads, and some focused targeting on specific sites or aimed at specific demographics.

Whenever I'd speak with my ad agency to review results, we'd look at the Google analytics for our website, specifically the sales ("conversions"). It was always the same story. Whenever someone converted (bought a watch), there'd be a "breadcrumb trail" - we could see how the customer would come to the site, leave, come back, leave, come back, leave...repeat a dozen times, then buy a watch. It might be 17 visits over 90 days (the limit of time before the original tracking cookie expired), but we could see the entire path someone took to reach checkout.

The ad guys would take credit for any sale that had an ad click anywhere in that trail. So if you came to the site from WUS forums, then left, then came from Facebook, then left...then clicked an ad, then left...then searched for the website, then left, then came back by way of Instagram...and eventually bought something, they'd say you bought because you saw the ad.

It didn't matter if the ad was the first point of contact (which could make sense), the last (ditto), or the 8th in a 17 link chain (which makes no sense), they'd take credit.

But what was infuriating was that we could also tell exactly WHICH ad you saw and supposedly clicked on. When it was a retargeting ad, it was rarely for the same watch someone bought. And very often, there were no coupon codes used, even when they were in the ads. Had the code been used, I might have been more likely to credit the ad with having something to do with it.

Someone would come to the site, look at an Acionna, leave, get shown a retargeting ad for the Acionna, click on it, leave, come back 2 months later and buy a Cerberus, but not use the coupon code from the ad, yet the ad guys would try to tell me the Acionna retargeting ad was working.

Huh?

What was really working was me. Full time. Here and on social media. Talking to the peeps. The guy who bought the Cerberus saw it here or on Instagram or Facebook, then went and bought one. End of.

$25k per year in wasted ad spend, times four years. It adds up.

So, when I hired my current marketing team, we cut all digital ad spend, to focus on social media and content. So far, so good.

I've been having a discussion about it with one of my retailers, who has done a lot of digital advertising. I think it makes more sense for a multi-brand retailer than it does for a microbrand. I can go on WUS and talk about NTH. What's the multi-brand retailer going to do? Go on WUS and talk about NTH?

It doesn't make as much sense, unless NTH goes 100% retail distribution, and stops selling direct. But even then - are you going to see a dozen retailers here, all talking up NTH, plus all their other brands?

His team was on the phone with Google reps earlier today, getting more details on the changes. It's clear that the system is going to be heavily biased in favor of large orgs that spend a lot more on ads. And this is all on top of a steadily growing list of complaints they've had with Google for a while. They've been drawing down their ad spend for some time, and are probably going to have to cut it to the minimum, if not stop it altogether.

It'll be interesting to see how younger, less-well-known brands who've been relying on digital ads react. Take a brand like Vaer. At one point, not too long ago, they were spending A TON on digital advertising. What will they do now?

Stop ads, and rely on positive press? Positive press from the outlets with the highest impact isn't easy to get when it's free, and when it isn't free, it isn't cheap. How long before those outlets really ratchet up their efforts to monetize what they're doing?

Keep spending on ads? How long will that be effective?

It's not just Vaer. I can think of at least a half a dozen smaller brands that have relied heavily on digital ads for their sales.

Over the years, and along with some others, I've made various attempts to quantify the cost-of-acquisition (the amount spent, on average, to create one sale to a new customer) with digital ads. The absolute lowest figure we ever got was $60. The highest was $120. Let's split the difference and say it's $90.

The costs have NOTHING to do with the price of the watch, though, which is a problem for brands selling affordable watches.

The more the watch costs, the more sense that makes, because it's a smaller portion of profit being cannibalized. The less the watch costs, the less sense it makes, because it eats more profit. I didn't think it made sense when we were selling watches for $500. Yet I've seen companies spend $90 to sell a $200-$300 watch. How does that make sense? How long can it make sense if the cost goes up, a lot?

Whenever I see a small brand spending a lot on digital ads, I see it as a sign of trouble. If they weren't having trouble selling without ads, they wouldn't be advertising. Ipso facto, they need the ads to sell, and that's a problem.

There are some brands that have built up enough critical mass to survive without ads. I'm sure Zelos isn't going to disappear, because of how big their WIS following is. My larger retailers who've been in business more than ten years and are getting >100k website visitors per month will likely be fine. But what will the impact be on brands without self-sustaining critical mass?

I'm not trying to say "I saw all this coming." I didn't, at least, not exactly. But I did understand from the beginning that a microbrand which becomes dependent on the big blogs' patronage or digital ad spend could be on shaky ground. What do you do when Hodinkee stops taking your calls, or Google decides to ram-rod you with an algorithm change?

It's why I always sort of chuckled to myself whenever I saw anyone criticize me for spending so much time on WUS and social media. Yes, it's been a huge investment of my time, and time is money, but whereas digital ad spend can only get more costly over time, my online engagement has only gotten more cost-effective over time.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Well, that was quite an answer, thank you!
> 
> I am not sure if the "avail" thing is something good or not - don't be offended if I brought up your upbringing... my apologies, if appropriate?
> 
> ...


Apologies not appropriate, inasmuch as none are needed. You stumbled onto an inside-the-family dad joke. Literally, I think it was from my dad. Dads are big on bad puns.

And yes, you can use that line.

Re - other people's money...

I don't want to name names, but a few years back, a microbrand that was a darling of the bigger blogs tried to raise money, publicly, which meant opening their books to public scrutiny. Again, I have a background in finance, so it was an eye-opener for me. Or more aptly, an eye-bulger.

The brand's founders had already raised outside money, both debt and equity, a lot of it, and were seeking a whole lot more, yet I couldn't see the appeal.

What did they do with all the money they initially raised? They spent it, and from what I could see, most of the spend was unwise. They had young and attractive metropolitan staff, and nice offices in an expensive city. The founders were well-paid.

Those expenses weren't supportable by the profits of the business. They were only supportable by the early influx of outside money. And when the business didn't grow to be self-sustaining, the outside money stopped coming in. That's how it works with outside money.

They weren't the only ones. I'm friendly with a peer who told me his biz has a $500k SBA loan outstanding. They're paying on the loan, but still - half a mil. That's a big number. The loan was necessary to hire staff, acquire space, invest in some big equipment. Okay, fine, so the business looks "successful", because it has a building, and staff, but how much is the business owner earning for his time, and for taking on all that debt risk?

My friend who recently sold his business - lots of volume, but also lots of overhead, and lots of debt, and the biz never kicked out very much to compensate him. His volume was 6x what mine has been, but his annual net was about the same. He walked away with some cash, but not really what you'd call "a windfall". It's enough to start another business, but not a big one.

I started my biz as one guy, working from a home office, with no staff. I didn't pay myself a dime for the first two years. I didn't borrow any money. Never carried a balance on my business credit card. I used a combination of my own money and customers' money (pre-orders). After launch, all the money I spent ON the business came FROM the business.

To be fair - about two years into it, I got a relatively small investment from two outside investors, in exchange for 10% of the business (5% each). I just got myself into a position where I was a little too far out in front of my skis, and needed cash I didn't have at the time. Lesson learned for me.

I bought one of those guys out a few years ago. He got all his money back, plus a reasonably fair, if not mind-blowing rate of return. The other, I wanted to buy out for the last two years, but he's begged off taking the money. He's got some stuff going on and wants to hold off. So be it.

Since then, more than once, I've considered what I'd do in the business, if someone dropped a big chunk of money on me. And the answer is generally, nothing. I don't see any good use for it. Advertising? A waste. Hiring staff? To do what? Opening a showroom? C'mon. Increasing production? Why? To sell to whom?

My business is still "small". It doesn't have the same footprint of some other brands that appear "more successful". We don't have nice offices in a big city or lots of staff. And yet - my business has no debt, I can buy out my 5% shareholder any time he wants the money, and I've been drawing an income from the business for the last eight years. My bills get paid, and I sleep okay.

That's not to say there isn't a place for outside investment or big chunks of money, wherever they come from. Look at Farer. The founders came from a big retail chain in the UK. Maybe they started using all their own money. Maybe they had some outside investment. Whichever it was, there must have been a pretty deep pool of liquidity available for the Farer brand to launch as big as it did.

And yet, I don't think I've ever seen a Farer ad, either. I think whatever they did, they went about it in a very smart way. I suspect most of their investment was in product development, staff, facilities, and production. They were probably able to leverage existing knowledge of and relationships in the world of retail distribution. They didn't have to over-spend on brand-building.

If you have the know-how to put a big chunk of money to good use, then it's good to have a big chunk of money. But money in the hands of incompetents is sure to be gone before it multiplies. And someone who doesn't have a really good use for money (like me) will likely find a fairly bad use for it.

Re - over-leveraging technology...

I was mainly thinking about some brands started by younger peeps, who rely heavily on digital advertising. Look at MVMT. Yes, I know the founders sold out to Movado group, for a ridiculously huge amount of money. But Movado seriously overpaid for what was fundamentally an unsound business. The founders got rich, but they did so by offloading a crap company on an overly-optimistic / opportunistic competitor.

They were spending $60 in acquisition costs to sell $120-$150 watches. I don't care how high their revenue or unit volume was. There's just not enough profit margin in those sales for that business to have been healthy. Even if the watches cost $10-$15 / unit to produce (which is very, very low). Huge volume brings huge operating costs. The numbers don't add up.

Sure enough, Movado stock peaked right before the acquisition, and took a nose-dive shortly thereafter. None of the assumed synergies materialized.

I see some other brands charting similar courses. Young guys. Big dreams. No wife or kids. Lots of talk about "scaling". Lots of ad spend. Probably putting on a good show of success. Probably not making much profit. Probably hoping to exit via an acquisition by a larger competitor before having to grow up and pay adult-type bills. Probably going to go out of business before that happens.

"Over-reliance on tech" is probably not the best way to describe it. What it is, really, is an over-reliance on something that's easy to do, easier than real work, but isn't very cost-effective. But a lot of people have been suckered into thinking it is, because, hey, everyone is on the internet, so you have to advertise there, right?

(Related to the above, as well as what they teach at universities...)

There's a school of thought, which I suspect is especially prevalent within "entrepreneurship" curricula - identify market, find product, start biz, advertise heavily, go viral, roll in big piles of cash, make your exit, wash-rinse-repeat, until you retire young and rich. It all sounds so achievable, which I suppose leads some to think it's pre-ordained, something of a right, or entitlement.

But what really happens is the ad spend eats up too much of the cash, the big piles never appear, and the exit rarely materializes. It just becomes a high-volume, low-margin business, which is to say, a lot of work and stress for not much money. Not what they promised in Entrepreneurship 101.

But it's not just digital ad spend, though that's probably the biggest / most costly "tech". We did an experiment with a mobile-messaging service for six months. Not cheap. Total waste.

The biggest ecommerce platform (the one we use) is big on plug-in web apps. There's an entire industry built around developing web apps for ecommerce stores. There's a translation app, a currency exchange app, a return logistics app, a product bundling app, etc, etc, etc. $5 per month here, $10 there. The costs start to add up.

Most of them are pretty useless for microbrands, I think. My site has maybe a dozen of them, all necessary, and all fairly cheap (some are free). I think we spend maybe $60-$80 per month on apps. It's not bad.

It's tempting to chase scale in a business like this, particularly if you don't have much real-life business experience, and especially if you read about Daniel Wellington or MVMT. But those are truly rare exceptions to the norm. I had too many $hltty jobs at poorly run yet "fast-growing" companies, I knew what NOT to do in pursuit of short-term growth.

Organic growth is slow growth. Fast growth requires...I don't know what it requires in a business like this. Farer didn't start small and grow big. They started big. I don't think Daniel Wellington got huge overnight. Fossil was more than a decade in the making. MVMT is really the only standout winner in the "get rich or die trying" competition, and if not for Movado buying the company, I'm fairly certain it would have imploded within another year or two.

Most who start small and try to accelerate growth artificially just end up burning cash on inefficient spends like digital ads and fancy offices with attractive staff. What they end up with are shaky, high-volume / low-margin businesses that appear successful right up until the moment the facade crumbles.


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Howdy.....










Goes with the "Fall Colors" today.

Just another red watch.


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

WOW... so much time, energy, and words spent patting oneself on the back.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

DesertArt said:


> WOW... so much time, energy, and words spent patting oneself on the back.


That’s right, kick a man when he’s on top of his game.

Ric, innit.


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## pork chop (Jun 24, 2010)

DesertArt said:


> WOW... so much time, energy, and words spent patting oneself on the back.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> The money I spent on digital ads was for Lew & Huey, not NTH. If you didn't see them, then you didn't see them, but we're talking about ads we ran from 2014 through 2018, before I hired my current marketing team.
> 
> Also - do you use an ad-blocker on your browser? A lot of people do, which just confounds digital advertisers in their efforts to figure out various metrics. You might not have seen the ads because you were blocking them.
> 
> ...


There is a well known phrase in relation to advertising spend: you know at least half of it is wasted, but just not which half!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

starwasp said:


> There is a well known phrase in relation to advertising spend: you know at least half of it is wasted, but just not which half!


 “_Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted_; the trouble is I don't _know_ which _half_.” ... John Wanamaker (department store magnate).

I think with internet ads, it's now way more than half. 

Back in the days of print or broadcast advertising, you could know almost exactly what your reach would be, the audience was fairly captive, and the costs were transparent. It was easier to measure the ROI, because generally, there was one.

As an example of one of the things I take a dim view of is YouTube ad revenue for content creators. My sons will tell me about the lavish lifestyles afforded to the YT channel operators with huge followings. Apparently there's a guy who goes by "Pewtie Pie" who lives like a rock star. "You Tuber" is now a career aspiration for some.

But I was provided some insight into the ad revenue received by one of the largest watch review channels, with hundreds of thousands of followers, and it was surprisingly low. Not nearly enough to "make a business" of it. 

What was sadly ironic is that the guy creating the content was capable of generating huge value for the brands he featured, yet he was limited in his ability to monetize the value of his own work. A guy who can make it rain shouldn't be dying of thirst. It was really sad.

If I want to target the audience of a watch reviewer, specifically, I don't necessarily pay that guy directly. I pay Google (YouTube), and hope my ad is seen on his channel. The reviewer doesn't know what I'm paying. I don't know how much of that he's getting. 10%? 50%? It's a black box. 

If Google "changes the algorithm", I wonder if that just means I'll have to pay more and the content creator will get less.

Creators have gotten creative about inserting ads into the content itself, so in theory, I could make arrangements directly with the content creator to target his audience. Less creatively, some will charge for reviews, or start a patreon to panhandle for support (sad just to type that), or try to sell swag. 

Some YT channels are just a form of advertising for their "real" business (like, erm...mine). I've recently gotten into the videos of a poker analyst. Every other video includes a pitch for his online training academy.

From a brand owner's perspective, it's hard to rationalize paying for reviews. It takes a huge audience to see an impact on sales. I can't justify paying $1000 for a review from a guy with 50k subscribers. But in recent years, I've noticed an dramatic uptick in content creators' efforts to monetize what they're doing by charging brands directly.

It's not much different for bloggers. Most of their ad revenue will be a trickle from the Google ad network. That's why so much of the horological press is inherently just a PR arm of the brands, who are often forced to pay for play. 

There's a reason why - the platform takes too high a percentage of the ad spend, and gives too low a portion to the content creators. It takes an audience size in the millions to earn a living from the ad revenue paid out by Google. 

It's another huge-volume / low margin business model, because the power is in the hands of the network (Google and Facebook), not the networkers (the people who are actually creating the content people come to consume).

Part of the problem is optics. If a blogger wants to charge $100 per month for a permanent ad he can control outside the Google network, the business owner is apt to say, "I'm already paying $500 per month to Google, so I can have an ad on your site without coughing up another $100 directly to you." 

Same with YouTube. Why pay $1000 for one ad on one channel when I can pay $500 and think I'm covering all the bases?

But whereas the $100 to the blogger can be understood and defined as a known value, the money spent on the Google Ad network is less understandable. We don't really know which ads work, which sites are best (not that we can have total control in that regard), etc. It's a choice between a bullet that might miss (paying $100 / month for a single ad on a single site) and a birdshot that is more likely to hit but less likely to make a big impact.

Facebook ads are an even bigger scam - they just charge for ads, and keep all the money. Facebook users, who create the content, get nothing. Most of the big FB groups charge brands to post in those groups. It's not a bad racket, if you can make it work.

All of which brings me back to the value in brand owners being active on social media as integral to the job. I can control my own engagement, and decide how much time I want to spend. The alternative is to pay for ads, or to directly pay YouTubers and bloggers to carry the message for me, all at a higher cost, which is almost certainly less cost-effective.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Take a brand like Vaer. At one point, not too long ago, they were spending A TON on digital advertising.


Still are, apparently. Every time I do a google search for anything watch related, the first link is a Vaer ad.

Wasted on me, I already know all about them.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> “_Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted_; the trouble is I don't _know_ which _half_.” ... John Wanamaker (department store magnate).
> 
> I think with internet ads, it's now way more than half.
> 
> ...


I have noticed that my Facebook page is inundating me with watch ads, because I follow some brands that I like, and have clicked their thingies… Which other than “yay more ads”, at least shows their targeting algorithm is dialled to eleven. Plus I feel a smidge of guilt blocking ads from watch brands(smart?). There’s so much there that could… well. get scary, using that algorithm for all the things..

I’m usually just annoyed with ads, but I do get it. Makes even more sense after your description of how thin(or negative) the margins must be to advertise on FB(in my case). Dial up the exposure(for another small fee) in an attempt to “capture” using both barrels, and pray for payoff. Rough trade.


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## DesertArt (7 mo ago)

Conventional watches have become such a dying breed to the general public...(given the emergence of do-everything smart watches) and at the same time, more and more of a commodity (with the plethora of great options to choose from).

While I still prefer conventional watches, personally, rough trade is right! Glad it's not my business.


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## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

NTH Antilles seemed like an appropriate color scheme for today. Plus @docvail is very scary.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Yes!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fiskadoro said:


> NTH Antilles seemed like an appropriate color scheme for today. Plus @docvail is very scary


Nah...


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Nah...


Accurate.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH x Watch Gecko Subs' aluminum inserts are now available from the NTH website.









Replacement Aluminum Bezel Inserts for NTH x Watch Gecko Subs


These bezel inserts will fit either the v.1 NTH Subs case, or the v.2 case. Bezel inserts are not returnable. All sales final. Please choose carefully. Use our website contact form for any questions. Insert dimensions: Inner diameter, 30mm. Outer diameter, 38mm. Inserts include pre-installed...




nthwatches.com


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Will one of those slick aluminum bezels fit my Scorpene...?











🤣


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Will one of those slick aluminum bezels fit my Scorpene...?
> 
> View attachment 17005745
> 
> ...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


>


I knew this was going to be the gif before it even loaded.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> I knew this was going to be the gif before it even loaded.


Consistency is one of the keys to my success.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

That and good looks.


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

That Commando insert looks good on everything.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> That and good looks.


And poise.

We ought not forget poise.


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> And poise.
> 
> We ought not forget poise.


_Poise_ means _constant attitude_, right? 
#customerabuse #goesbothways


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> _Poise_ means _constant attitude_, right?
> #customerabuse #goesbothways


Customer support team member of the month, 115 months running...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Well, the blue WG Nacken aluminum bezel is in! Here's how it looks with the V1(b) Modern Blue dial (I put that in the v2 case, this is not the lighter v2 dial color). 



















I'll try to snap more pics in natural light tomorrow, but this is going to require some modification to suit my fancy! Not to mention a replacement pip. 

More to come...










BTW, the WG gray is not bad; a little sanding to de-bling, and it will be a suitable backup if I totally goof up the blue insert... although it could use juuust a little bleaching.... ima goof both of these up, probably...


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

The grey insert really works well with the dark blue dial:


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Here is my first watch from Doc....










From outside by the "Burning Bush'... And then into the house....










It Lumes!

Best Wishes....


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Monday
















Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

sgtlmj said:


> The grey insert really works well with the dark blue dial:



The grey looks really good, but I have determined that I will need 12hr functionality with this watch, as it is going to be my traveling companion for a while. I have a Vanguard insert on the way. Grey insert is up for grabs on the classifieds.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Got this today:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> Got this today:
> View attachment 17019821


And so the honeymoon begins...


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

docvail said:


> And so the honeymoon begins...


I know, right. I think this one will be in a steady rotation with my other Seamaster (2254.50) and my Thresher. There are some watches that you can look at over the years and just get a feeling. The words 'bond' or 'bonding' with an item like a watch grates on me when i read them but maybe that's what it means?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents, FYI...

After this upcoming release of DevilRays, and a re-stock on the Watch Gecko Subs, we don't have anything else planned for production until next year.

I'm not yet sure what we'll produce next, but if I had to guess, I'd guess more v.2 Subs, probably some of our more popular designs from past releases. Looking at the list, I'm guessing we might see a return of the Barracuda Blue (or alternatively, maybe a new Amphion Blue Gilt instead), maybe the Barracuda Brown or Polar White, and perhaps the Odin. 

After that, my hope is I'll have the non-diver design done and ready for production. Stay tuned for more info sometime next year.

Meantime, there are a lot of "last of" designs out there, and I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't periodically make NTH fans aware of the low stock numbers. So...here we go...

Last of the v.1 Subs:

Bahia (with date)
Scorpène Blue (no date)
Skipjack (no date)
Vanguard (no date)
As usual with watches purchased from IntoWatch in Korea, I'd suggest emailing [email protected] for support, before attempting a purchase through the site. Ask to have the local Korean tax removed. With only one possible exception in the above list, there's only one piece left of each of those.

Last of the v.2 Tropics:

Antilles Cointreau (no date) - last two or three of 50 produced - one at Five:45 in New Zealand. One or two in Korea.
Antilles Dark Rum (no date) - last one of 25 produced.
Antilles Dark Rum (with date) - too late. Sold out.
Antilles Hpnotiq (no date) - last one of 25 produced.
Azores Absinthe no date - too late. Sold out.
Azores Absinthe with date - last two of 50 - one at Serious in the EU, one at Watch Gecko in the UK.
Azores Blue Curaçao no date, last two of 50 - one at Serious in the EU, one at IntoWatch in Korea.
Azores Blue Curaçao with date, last four or five of 50 - Serious (1), Watch Gecko (1 or 2), Zatoka in Poland (1), and Five:45 in NZ (1).
Last of the Orange and Turquoise DevilRays:

Orange, no date - 4 or 5 left of 25 - Watch Gauge in the USA (1), Watch Gecko (1 or 2), IntoWatch (1), Five:45 (1)
Orange, with date - just 1 or 2 left of 25.
Turquoise, no date - 2 left of 25 - Zatoka (1), IntoWatch (1)
Turquoise, with date - 1 or 2 left of 25.
Last of these v.2 Subs:

Barracuda Vintage Black, no-date - only 3 or 4 left - NTH (1 on BOR), Serious (1 on oyster), The Watchdrobe in Hong Kong (1 or 2 on oyster)
Barracuda Vintage Black, with date - last 1 at Serious (on BOR, but email [email protected] and they'll swap in an oyster if you prefer it).
The Mack with Date on BOR - I still have some with-dates on oyster, but they're all in our warehouse, so I can't do bracelet swaps. If you want a with-date on BOR, there's 1 left at Serious.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

josiahg52 said:


> I know, right. I think this one will be in a steady rotation with my other Seamaster (2254.50) and my Thresher. There are some watches that you can look at over the years and just get a feeling. The words 'bond' or 'bonding' with an item like a watch grates on me when i read them but maybe that's what it means?


I think the term is just short-hand for "not having buyer's regret (yet?)".

It's only just occurring to me now - I think most of us experience buyer's regret more than we realize, but whereas no one goes online to complain about an unwise purchase of a shirt or pair of sneakers, it seems to be de rigueur with watches. I wonder if it's the same with any / all other things guys collect (and as a consequence, obsess over).

They're things we buy. Not every purchase is going to stand up under the harsh light of retrospective scrutiny. It's regrettable when our second-guessing leads to online trashing, as if turning others off of purchasing the same thing we did is going to make us feel less regret over our own purchase.








Meanwhile, I got a closet full of stuff I never wear, and shouldn't have bought. I mean...black cargo shorts? What was I thinking? Why do I have not one but two over-sized, short-sleeve plaid shirts? Why did I think I'd be able to maintain my weight at a historic low when I bought a bunch of button-downs and sweaters, all of which look ridiculous on me now? And three suits? How many weddings and funerals am I expecting to attend? 

No one else to blame for that. No one on a forum talked me into buying them, or tried to talk me out of it, either. Sometimes we don't "bond" with things. That's what hand-me-downs, Goodwill and the secondary market are for.


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

You might be right. I can only recall a handful of items that I can truly say I regret for one reason or another. I'm sure if I actually carefully considered _all_ of my purchases, there's probably many more. I don't foresee this purchase being one of them.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Insane deal on a v.1 Scorpène Blue (not my listing) - 









My “lumiest” watch. NTH Scorpene


Size : 40/48/11.5/20 Price : $185 Purchased new. Like new condition. Priced to reflect a bezel alignment that is not perfect. CONUS. Free shipping. No trades please. Prefer Zelle but will take Paypal. Cutting my collection in half. 31 gone. 33 to go.




www.watchuseek.com


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## ThreeHandHunter (2 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Gents, FYI...
> 
> After this upcoming release of DevilRays, and a re-stock on the Watch Gecko Subs, we don't have anything else planned for production until next year.
> 
> ...


Thanks for everything you and the team at NTH do to bring us all great watches--I'd love to see a V2 Odin someday to go along with my knocked-around V1, and maybe a V2 Amphion 'Modern Black' (non-gilt) as a companion to my Commando...I consider myself very lucky to have snagged what seems to have been the last V2 Näcken Modern Black no-date in the world from Serious about three months ago, and I'm counting on you to bring more NTH magic to the table.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ThreeHandHunter said:


> Thanks for everything you and the team at NTH do to bring us all great watches--I'd love to see a V2 Odin someday to go along with my knocked-around V1, and maybe a V2 Amphion 'Modern Black' (non-gilt) as a companion to my Commando...I consider myself very lucky to have snagged what seems to have been the last V2 Näcken Modern Black no-date in the world from Serious about three months ago, and I'm counting on you to bring more NTH magic to the table.


My first thought was that you're weird for wanting more than one Amphion or Odin. I mean, why would you?

Then I remembered I have 2 Barracudas, 2 Odins, 2 Scorpènes, and 2 Näckens. Apparently if I like something, I'll want it in more than one color. I don't think I'm weird, so...neither are you.

The Amphions are perplexing. WIS seem to idolize the MilSub. In theory, the Amphions should be our most successful versions. In reality, for whatever reason, we've done better with the various versions of the Barracudas and Näckens. 

I also thought the Odins would have been more popular, because the vintage SM300 is right up there with the MilSub. But, there again, not as popular as expected. Neither the Amphions or the Odins were failures. Just not as popular as I would have expected given the icon status of their respective inspirations.

Trying to figure out what to make based on reading what watch geeks post online can sometimes be like a professional sports team coach trying to decide which plays to run based on what the spectators are shouting from the stands. 

Given a long enough timeline, I'm sure we'll bring back the Modern Black versions of both the Amphion and the Näcken, but probably not until late next year for the latter, and probably not until the following year for the former.

Anyway...nice first post. Welcome to WUS forums, and the NTH family. Thanks for your business. Glad you like the watches, and we'll keep making them as long as people keep buying them.


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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Insane deal on a v.1 Scorpène Blue (not my listing) -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah...that one sold less than an hour after it was posted yesterday...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Yeah...that one sold less than an hour after it was posted yesterday...


So I've been told.

The used market can be nuts sometimes. I get that lots of peeps are feeling the effects of inflation, which might make for a "soft" secondary market (read: it's a buyer's market), but still...that's over 70% depreciation in four years (I know who the seller is, when he bought it, and what he paid). 

The fact that it sold instantly is a clear sign that it was under-priced. He probably could have gotten $300-$400 for it if he tried.

But, hey, he's apparently selling off over 60 watches. Maybe it's more about speed than maximizing value.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here really good at scouring the internet for usable data metrics? I'm curious about the success rate of watch projects on Kickstarter in recent years. I found a source with really good infographics, but all the data is from before 2017.





__





Loading…






www.crowdfundingpr.org





The stuff I'm curious about is in the highlighted sections of this screenshot.

*I'll do something nice for anyone who can gather up similarly usable data metrics for watch projects from years 2017-2021 / 2022.*








As I'm expecting more commentary than anyone being successful in finding this sort of data...

In a thread from November 2015, I predicted 2016 would bring about an implosion of many microbrands. Then, in another thread from early 2016, I pegged "peak micro" at Q3 2015, when the funds raised by successful projects apparently nose-dived.

Looking at the graphs above, what jumped out at me was the expected inverse relationship between the number of projects and their success rate - specifically, as the number of projects proliferated from 2013 to 2016, the overall success rate declined.

"Expected" as in, I expected it, because I think it was to be expected, just like the end of all gold rushes. I had the sense in 2015 that there was a new brand starting every week, and the market simply couldn't support them all, especially not if they were all "disrupting the industry by re-defining affordable luxury", or whatever.

So, I'm curious about whether or not that apparent trend from 2013 through 2016 may have continued through this year. My expectation would be that the number of projects each year kept going up, and the success rate kept going down. It wouldn't surprise me if the success rate is well under 40%, or even under 30% at this point.

The only metric I could find was on Statista, where the historical success rates for ALL projects (not just watches) was 40% through 2022. But that's all projects for all products, not just watches, and it's all-time, from the start of KS to this year. I strongly suspect that the figures for watch projects in recent years would be much worse.

I'm not as sure what I'd predict about the average amount spent per watch or the total amount raised (especially as the infographic for that metric contradicts other figures in the same article - how is the total raised for 2015 under $13M when there was a single project that raised over $20M that same year?). My suspicion would be that both of those would have more or less leveled off in recent years.

My thinking is that there's been increasing downward pressure on rewards "prices", which would put downward pressure on the average amount spent and the total amount raised, especially if the success rates have continued to fall. Whenever I scroll through watch projects on KS, my general sense of things is that most of the projects that get over their funding goal have goals that are really low, with only a scant few standouts raising more than enough to cover estimated production costs.

If brands can't raise enough funds to even pay production costs on their first model, they're not off to a strong start.

Seems like it's a really hard time to start a microbrand. Glad I did it when I did.


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## ThreeHandHunter (2 mo ago)

docvail said:


> My first thought was that you're weird for wanting more than one Amphion or Odin. I mean, why would you?
> 
> Then I remembered I have 2 Barracudas, 2 Odins, 2 Scorpènes, and 2 Näckens. Apparently if I like something, I'll want it in more than one color. I don't think I'm weird, so...neither are you.
> 
> ...


You're right--I am weird in a way that makes certain NTH models the perfect watches for me: I'm addicted to no-date black divers with non-numerical, printed indicies (or lumicast); great case architecture; outstanding lume; well regulated movements; and crisp, solid bezel action...Everything NTH delivers. The Näcken Blue, Baracudas and Amphion gilt are watches I can look at all day long--but I just can't wear a watch that's prettier than I am, so I know they're someone else's...Which leaves me with the old Odin and Amphion Commando, the Näcken Modern Black, and a gnawing greed for the V1 variants I didn't buy...It could be that there are too many takes on the Milsub out there; and maybe the Big Triangle SMP people gravitate to Helsons--I'm not sure about that...But I am sure I couldn't resist buying a V2 Odin or Amphion Modern Black; and I know the team at NTH may also surprise me someday with something I don't even know I need yet.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> The Amphions are perplexing. WIS seem to idolize the MilSub. In theory, the Amphions should be our most successful versions. In reality, for whatever reason, we've done better with the various versions of the Barracudas and Näckens.


SNOWFLAKES>EVERYTHING. 

I actually really love the Amphion Modern. I'm surprised it isn't a better seller as well, it would be on a short list for me if you released a v2.

The Nackens are a more-unique-to-NTH style. Nobody else is making a good Pelagos homage, and the raised indices are just fantastic. So I'm not surprised those sell better for you, regardless of v1 or v2 case. 

But I'm assuming guys are looking elsewhere for their milsubs and seamaster vibes. You haven't (afaik) made a modern Amphion in the v2 case, which a milsub really kind of needs, and there's a plethora of seamaster-styled cases available out there with the twisted lug shape, which, if I were going for a seamaster style, I'd be looking at those cases because the case shape seems almost more important than the dial and bezel insert styling. 

(Ok, it's me, so I might be looking at an Odin, case swapped into one of those other cases, but I'm weird.)


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Insane deal on a v.1 Scorpène Blue (not my listing) -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would buy it but CONUS so never mind. 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> SNOWFLAKES>EVERYTHING.
> 
> I actually really love the Amphion Modern. I'm surprised it isn't a better seller as well, it would be on a short list for me if you released a v2.
> 
> ...


The thing is - the MilSub had printed indices, not applied. The Amphion Modern with applied markers isn't any more true to the original than the Amphion Vintage Gilt (our current Amphion offering, in v.2 case). But at least the Vintage Gilt seems more period-correct than something with applied markers.

I was about to say maybe we should go all-in with a true-to-the-original MilSub homage, with all the correct styling cues, but...I'm looking at MilSub pics, and honestly, I don't think it's that good-looking a watch.

I think most of the Amphions we've made are more interesting designs. It's hard to find any MilSub more interesting than the Red Ronin we made for Kiger, with the big red skull and crossed samurai swords.

As for the Odin - if peeps want a SM300 homage, it's hard to beat the Helson Sharkmaster 300, at almost any price. I think it's better (in terms of how close it is to the original) than either the Borealis Estoril or the MKII project 300. I had one for a few months, and it thoroughly scratched my SM300 itch.

The problem was - I didn't like it as much as my 40mm Subs. The Helson was a GREAT watch, and a FANTASTIC SM300 homage. I just felt like it was a little too big, a little too thick, and a little too top-heavy. Hence - you get the Odin, a 40mm Sub with a mix of SM300 and SMP 2254 styling cues.

I could make a very true-to-original SM300 or MilSub homage. I just don't really see the point. Silver Watch Co arguably made the most true-to-original MilSub, and they went out of business after making one model. Helson's been sold out of the Sharkmaster 300 for a while. Are they making more? Is Borealis going to make more of the Estoril? Could I do better than the Helson or the Silver with the same source material?

I just scrolled through the Ginault website, and it appears that the Ocean Rover seems to be discontinued. I mean, that was "THE" applied-index MilSub homage to own for 4-5 years. One has to wonder why they'd discontinue production if they were still selling well.

I'm not suggesting there's no market for MilSub or SM300 homages. I guess I'm just wondering if the market for them really isn't all that big. It seems like everyone who's made one eventually stops making them, or makes a lot of other stuff, such that the MilSub or SM300 homages aren't their core business (thinking about Squale, Steinhart, Borealis, Helson, etc).

All that said - maybe there's a future limited-edition v.2 Sub with the thicker crystal and aluminum insert, sword hands, printed indices, and matte dial. Seems like people flipped for the blue Watch Gecko Näcken. I don't think anyone's made a more compelling vintage Snowflake Sub homage. We could give the MilSub the same treatment.

To paraphrase a line from a song, maybe there's still some magic left in that old top hat...


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

docvail said:


> The thing is - the MilSub had printed indices, not applied. The Amphion Modern with applied markers isn't any more true to the original than the Amphion Vintage Gilt (our current Amphion offering, in v.2 case). But at least the Vintage Gilt seems more period-correct than something with applied markers.
> 
> I was about to say maybe we should go all-in with a true-to-the-original MilSub homage, with all the correct styling cues, but...I'm looking at MilSub pics, and honestly, I don't think it's that good-looking a watch.
> 
> ...


I’m seeing more snowflake watches than I ever have. Steinhart is even doing them. Silver had their blue Tudor Milsub homages, but their bezel insert was too dark to pull off the vintage look. Tudor has been hitting it out of the park the last several years with all of their releases and I think that has given the snowflake a boost. Maybe there is some sword and Mercedes fatigue going on as well. I’d love a Gecko blue Nacken no-date with the original crystal and green vintage lume.


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## blitzoid (Jan 21, 2016)

sgtlmj said:


> I’m seeing more snowflake watches than I ever have. Steinhart is even doing them. Silver had their blue Tudor Milsub homages, but their bezel insert was too dark to pull off the vintage look. Tudor has been hitting it out of the park the last several years with all of their releases and I think that has given the snowflake a boost. Maybe there is some sword and Mercedes fatigue going on as well. I’d love a Gecko blue Nacken no-date with the original crystal and green vintage lume.


there might just be a Nacken renegade posted up on F29 right now at a really good price…..


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

docvail said:


> Helson's been sold out of the Sharkmaster 300 for a while. Are they making more?


Browsing around to understand what we are discussing: they restocked them _earlier today_. Spooky!


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I am probably the wrong person to comment on Swords hands as I have modified a number of my watches to use them. I really dislike Mercedes hands and I was not a fan of Snowflake hands either. I have modified both my Barracuda blue and my Santa Cruz to use sword hands, along with my Odin. 



















And I have also debated changing my Santa Fe to skeleton sword hands, even though the previous owner already swapped the Mercedes to skeleton snowflake hands. 











By choice I would probably buy all my watches with sword hands in future 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> Browsing around to understand what we are discussing: they restocked them _earlier today_. Spooky!


That is spooky.

For years, it seemed like Helson was synonymous with their Shark Divers. They made other watches, but they made the Shark Divers in such a wide variety of sizes, colors, and case materials that it must have been their core product. 

I would bet that they did VERY well with the Sharkmaster 300 range, too. So it's not surprising they'd restock them. If someone wants that vintage SM300 look, there's really nothing else that comes as close as the Sharkmaster does at or below the price it does.

Notwithstanding what I said above, about them being sold out for a while - they started making them in early 2018. If they sold out earlier this year, that would mean they made them for four years straight. That's a solid run for any model from any microbrand. 

I got mine for just under $700, from their first production. I had a few minor quibbles with it (the hollow end-links being the primary complaint), but otherwise, I thought it really was a hell of a watch, especially for the money.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Back when I had one, the Amphion Commando was my favorite NTH offering. Yes, because of the bezel. But I liked the Scorpene Nomad better... and then NTH started offering replacement bezel inserts...










Nowadays, I do like me a good sword-hand watch. So the available Amphion gilt is surely tempting... although given a choice, probably the Mack would get the nod... and a Catalina bezel insert.

Next in line would be a Nacken Modern Blue... with an Odin Blue bezel insert. At some point, I was not a fan of snowflake hands. Now, big fan.


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## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

NTH Subs are amazing! The watch itself hits 90% of the things I look for in a solid automatic watch, but the fact that you can, A) chat with the owner about watches or just about any other random subject, and B) buy parts to mod and accessorize to your liking, really puts it over 100%.

Näcken Vanguard:


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## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> That is spooky.
> 
> For years, it seemed like Helson was synonymous with their Shark Divers. They made other watches, but they made the Shark Divers in such a wide variety of sizes, colors, and case materials that it must have been their core product.
> 
> ...


If they were hollow endlinks before, they don't appear to be anymore:


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

sgtlmj said:


> NTH Subs are amazing! The watch itself hits 90% of the things I look for in a solid automatic watch, but the fact that you can, A) chat with the owner about watches or just about any other random subject, and B) buy parts to mod and accessorize to your liking, really puts it over 100%.
> 
> Näcken Vanguard:


Dang. If only the bezel insert were that color in every lighting...

That looks amazing.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> If they were hollow endlinks before, they don't appear to be anymore:
> View attachment 17028220


Yeah, they changed them up. The first production had hollow end-links.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Fratello last week: "We wish someone still made true gilt dials."

NTH Fans in the Comments section: "...ahem."









The Lost Art Of The Gilt Dial — With Examples From Rolex, Tudor, And Oris


✓ A closer look at the gilt dial ✓ What is it? ✓ And how is it different from the later gilt-tone dial? ✓ Read all about it here! ✓




www.fratellowatches.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saw this in my IG feed. Someone swapped the insert out on his Watch Gecko Amphion to make a vintage Kermit.









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Saw this in my IG feed. Someone swapped the insert out on his Watch Gecko Amphion to make a vintage Kermit.
> View attachment 17033013


There are so many details about this I shouldn't like, but as a whole, it's pretty slick...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> There are so many details about this I shouldn't like, but as a whole, it's pretty slick...


Right?

Personally not a fan of Merc hands or the green-n-black color scheme, but if you got a hankering for a vintage Kermit, and don't want to part with $20k, it's not a bad way to go.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


>


You should try to get the camera closer to the watch.

Kinda hard to make out some of the details in that pic.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

With my eyes, im lucky if anything is in focus


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

Rhorya said:


> With my eyes, im lucky if anything is in focus


The best picture is the one you actually took!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> With my eyes, im lucky if anything is in focus


Bill Jones school of photography for the win!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ME: Doesn't watch a single football game all season.

Eagles: Only team in the league to go undefeated in 8 straight games. Best start to a season in franchise history. Haven't trailed at half-time in a single game. Among top 5 teams in at least a half a dozen key stats for both offense and defense. Widely considered to be the odds-on-favorite to represent the NFC in the Superbowl.

ME: Watches ONE GODDAM MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL GAME!

Eagles: losing to the 4-5 Washington goddam Commanders (formerly the team known as the Redskins), with an undrafted, back-up quarterback (who got cut by four teams before playing in the b-league XFL). Trailing at the half. Trailing at the end of the 3rd quarter. Less than 15 minutes of possession in the first 45 minutes of the game. Two turnovers. Multiple 3-and-outs.


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> ME: Doesn't watch a single football game all season.
> 
> Eagles: Only team in the league to go undefeated in 8 straight games. Best start to a season in franchise history. Haven't trailed at half-time in a single game. Among top 5 teams in at least a half a dozen key stats for both offense and defense. Widely considered to be the odds-on-favorite to represent the NFC in the Superbowl.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't need to check ESPN this morning. 
Much obliged.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Figured it might be better to wear my


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This little beauty again. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Doc, I am excited for the devilray release this month, the renders are cool but is there any chance you can post a photo of the new watchgauge version ?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> Doc, I am excited for the devilray release this month, the renders are cool but is there any chance you can post a photo of the new watchgauge version ?


Absolutely, as soon as we actually take delivery of them, and can have them photographed, believe me, we'll post photos.


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> This little beauty again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see what you did there, nice mod. Is the minute track applied to waffle or is it part of the dial on Santa Cruz?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Kinesis said:


> I see what you did there, nice mod. Is the minute track applied to waffle or is it part of the dial on Santa Cruz?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am assuming that the dial is stamped with the waffle pattern, and the minute track along with the text areas have been left flat deliberately. The minute track is then printed on to the dial.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kinesis said:


> I see what you did there, nice mod. Is the minute track applied to waffle or is it part of the dial on Santa Cruz?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Flat ring perimeter for minute track.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

It's #NTHursday










It's a shame no one does gilt-relief anymore... 
-Rusty


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

Time for me to get the Mack. Have to decide date or no date, though. The no date looks great but I like having a date and at 6 o'clock, it's in a position I prefer.

Also, if anyone sees a black DLC Swiftsure with date for sale, let me know, please.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Going old school 










Love this watch. Of all the L&H models this is the one that should be brought back. This has consistently been top 5 in my most worn watch list since I got it in 2015 with around 10-15% per year. Considering I rotate between around 24 different watches per year, the Orthos really kicks ass 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

So... 2023, NTH is planning a non-diver, and Atticus is planning a diver. 

WTF is the matter with you people?!? Stay in your lanes!


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> So... 2023, NTH is planning a non-diver, and Atticus is planning a diver.


Speaking of which, any update doc?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 17039117
> 
> 
> So... 2023, NTH is planning a non-diver, and Atticus is planning a diver.
> ...


He stole my thing so i stole his thing back.

It's called a "switcheroo".

Read a book.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> He stole my thing so i stole his thing back.
> 
> It's called a "switcheroo".
> 
> ...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This hits so many likes on my list.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Friday
















Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> Doc, I am excited for the devilray release this month, the renders are cool but is there any chance you can post a photo of the new watchgauge version ?


Boom









Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## GreenSunTurtle (Jun 30, 2018)

Just received my new NTH Azores today. Wow! I expected it to look good but not _this_ good. Definitely very happy with the watch and looking forward to wearing it for a long time. I bought the Blue dial, no date, variant from Serious Watches and had a great experience with the store as well.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GreenSunTurtle said:


> Just received my new NTH Azores today. Wow! I expected it to look good but not _this_ good. Definitely very happy with the watch and looking forward to wearing it for a long time. I bought the Blue dial, no date, variant from Serious Watches and had a great experience with the store as well.


Awesome. Welcome to the forums and the NTH thread. Glad you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any problems. Otherwise enjoy it and wear it in good health, my friend.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Boom
> View attachment 17041494
> 
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Cheers for the quick photo, just to be sure the dial colour is the same as the Naken blue?


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> Cheers for the quick photo, just to be sure the dial colour is the same as the Naken blue?


It's the same color blue as the Odin Blue, Swiftsure/Thresher Blue, and current gen Nacken Modern Blue.

Cue three pages of guys arguing over which blue they like best, and asking for Pantone comparisons.

Seriously, why do you hate me?


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's the same color blue as the Odin Blue, Swiftsure/Thresher Blue, and current gen Nacken Modern Blue.
> 
> Cue three pages of guys arguing over which blue they like best, and asking for Pantone comparisons.
> 
> Seriously, why do you hate me?


I got no beef, apologies if this triggers anyone on what shade of blue it should or should not be, whoever chose the dial colour, I respect their decision.

I have the watchgecko version that has the same dial colour (I think) and currently owning 5 different dial coloured devilrays, I was seeing if I could justify purchasing another.

Thanks for clarifying the colour for me.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dtn8 said:


> I got no beef, apologies if this triggers anyone on what shade of blue it should or should not be, whoever chose the dial colour, I respect their decision.
> 
> I have the watchgecko version that has the same dial colour (I think) and currently owning 5 different dial coloured devilrays, I was seeing if I could justify purchasing another.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying the colour for me.


Just jerking your chain, brother. Debating colors is sort of a side-show around here.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## VH944 (Dec 15, 2019)

I keep mentioning: #customerabuse goes both ways 🤣


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)

Chilly morning in Philadelphia. And I need more coffee.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VH944 said:


> I keep mentioning: #customerabuse goes both ways 🤣


It must run in the family. My dog was just permanently expelled from doggy daycare yesterday, after spending all of recess in the principal's office one day last week. 

True story.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Boom
> View attachment 17041494


Dangit... When you think you don't need some new release and then a pic hits you upside the head and gets you thinkin'...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Dangit... When you think you don't need some new release and then a pic hits you upside the head and gets you thinkin'...


Keil wanted to base the design on a vintage Aquadive he has. Better / more pics to follow.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...about them DevilRays...

We got another partial shipment from our vendor. We'll be able to start sales on the 3-handers right away (as in, now - link below), but we won't have any of the GMT's in stock for at least a week.

For the time being, if you want to order a GMT right away, you'll need to order it from Long Island Watches, Watch Gauge, or Serious Watches.

Watch Gecko ought to have them by next week.

If you want to buy a GMT from the NTH site, you can, but we likely won't be able to ship them until early/mid-December.









DevilRay







nthwatches.com


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So nice! If this could have a cyclops, it would be a fantastic DJ substitute.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hopefully everyone here is subscribed to the NTH email newsletter, and received the message about our Black Friday / Cyber Monday sale. First sale we've done in five years. The prices are already marked down 10%, so any coupon codes you've been holding onto can be stacked on.


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## Watchoss (Apr 6, 2019)

Love it
















Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US.

Happy "good riddance to those tax-dodging colonials" day to those in the UK.

Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)




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## ThreeHandHunter (2 mo ago)

Happy Thanksgiving, Doc!


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US.
> 
> Happy "good riddance to those tax-dodging colonials" day to those in the UK.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Likewise.

One recalls earlier observations that one day you’ll come crawling back. But I’ve recently changed my opinions.

You traitors were simply an early movement of brexiters.

One salutes the foresight of yer treacherous forebears.

Ric


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## Dtn8 (Dec 29, 2017)

Stoked to get an order in on a black GMT devilray with watchgauge. 
Taking this one out for some Adelaide sunshine while waiting for my new DR.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US.
> 
> Happy "good riddance to those tax-dodging colonials" day to those in the UK.
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...



At its heart, the American Revolution was a triumph for the old english yeoman stock against German mercenaries!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

[weirdly nostalgic for a time when we still referred to anyone as a yeoman...]


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*NOT MY LISTING*

Nice deal on a LNIB Watch Gecko DevilRay - 









SOLD: NTH Devil Ray*****MINT


For sale is my mint Devil Ray. A Watch Gecko exclusive. (worn 2X in the house for about 2 hours on a strap). Bracelet was tried on and set for about a 7" wrist. Watch is keeping excellent time while sitting in the watch box after a winding. Comes with all bracelet links, case and outer sleeve...




www.watchuseek.com


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> .
> View attachment 17054333
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


If you ever sell that one, please lmk!


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## MerseburgWatchMan (2 mo ago)

Just picked this up used. The dial is amazing (as is everything else). Thank you, NTH.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MerseburgWatchMan said:


> View attachment 17058713
> 
> 
> Just picked this up used. The dial is amazing (as is everything else). Thank you, NTH.


Thank you, my friend. 

Let us know if it gives you any trouble (mechanically speaking, not talking about driving slow in the passing lane on the autobahn). 

Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Thank you, my friend.
> 
> Let us know if it gives you any trouble (mechanically speaking, not talking about driving slow in the passing lane on the autobahn).
> 
> Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health.


If his watch gained sentience and was driving too slow on the autobahn, I'd think you'd want to know that too...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone looking for a Watch Gecko Amphion Black Onyx? I've met this seller a couple times. Seemed like a solid dude.









FS: NTH WatchGecko Amphion Black Dial


$700 NET (Shipping included) Selling my WatchGecko exclusive Amphion Black dial. Includes full kit and all links. It excellent condition with the exception of a few very minor scuffs on the clasp, bracelet and side of case. Bezel and Crystal are immaculate. NO TRADES US SALES ONLY PLEASE...




www.watchuseek.com


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## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

There's also a Nazario Azurro listed in the sales forum. Doc will vouch for that seller as well.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> There's also a Nazario Azurro listed in the sales forum. Doc will vouch for that seller as well.


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)




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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Deleted


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## Artking3 (Mar 24, 2018)

docvail said:


> The thing is - the MilSub had printed indices, not applied. The Amphion Modern with applied markers isn't any more true to the original than the Amphion Vintage Gilt (our current Amphion offering, in v.2 case). But at least the Vintage Gilt seems more period-correct than something with applied markers.
> 
> I was about to say maybe we should go all-in with a true-to-the-original MilSub homage, with all the correct styling cues, but...I'm looking at MilSub pics, and honestly, I don't think it's that good-looking a watch.
> 
> ...


I'll be the first to put money down on a preorder on a limited edition Milsub if its as good as the WatchGecko models. I wouldn't mind changes to make it better, I picked up the grey Amphion because of its resemblance to the ghost bezels and tropical dials of certain vintage subs. A bracelet and removable spring bars are 2 changes I would prefer from the original Milsub.

The blue NTH WatchGecko Nacken is the best Tudor Snowflake homage I've either handled. In comparison to the Silver Watch Co Snowflake (which I also have), the color of the NTH dials and indices are much better, as are the case shape and crown guards. The NTH bracelet is also better. The Silver Watch Co has a much better bezel action, but I disliked the color of the dial and indices so I am going to move the watch on. 

I'm sure that NTH can make a much better MilSub than Silver Watch Co and Steinhart, which make two of the better Milsub homages. I was on the verge of getting the Steinhart Milsub 39 homage when the WatchGecko NTH was released, and it has ruined the Steinhart for me. I have a Steinhart 1655 GMT homage which I love but the straight lugs are a point of contention for me, and their Milsub has the same case shape.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Under $600 seems like a cracking deal on an unworn Santa Cruz (not my listing) - 









Discontinued NTH Santa Cruz.


Selling my new (unworn) nth santa cruz. I love nth and think doc is doing a great job, which is why I've been holding on to this so long. Still in original packaging. $825 to me. Big price drop: $575 Any questions let me know. Thanks for looking. Probably selling my used nacken soon also...




www.watchuseek.com


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## Chatoboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Still in love with this one😍


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Seriously a very nice watch.


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## martin_bergstrom (11 mo ago)

I wonder if the blue dial on NTH näcken v2 does have a hint of purple in it or if its actually completely Blue? Hard to tell by some pictures.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

martin_bergstrom said:


> I wonder if the blue dial on NTH näcken v2 does have a hint of purple in it or if its actually completely Blue? Hard to tell by some pictures.


IMO, it's a fairly neutral shade of blue, Pantone 2955 C, seen in the upper left quadrant of this color wheel (in the white box directly under the word "colors"). 

Looking at its placement on the color wheel, to my eye, it appears roughly mid-way between pure green and pure red, with a touch more green than purple.

The RGB (red-green-blue) scale values for it are zero red, and roughly twice as much blue (values in the low 100's on a 0-255 scale) as green (values in the 50's). I think a blue with more purple in it would have higher red and blue values, and a lower green value.


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## martin_bergstrom (11 mo ago)

docvail said:


> IMO, it's a fairly neutral shade of blue, Pantone 2955 C, seen in the upper left quadrant of this color wheel (in the white box directly under the word "colors").
> 
> Looking at its placement on the color wheel, to my eye, it appears roughly mid-way between pure green and pure red, with a touch more green than purple.
> 
> The RGB (red-green-blue) scale values for it are zero red, and roughly twice as much blue (values in the low 100's on a 0-255 scale) as green (values in the 50's). I think a blue with more purple in it would have higher red and blue values, and a lower green value.


Thanks for this outstanding reply  My hunt for one second hand will continue!


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## GreenSunTurtle (Jun 30, 2018)

Here's a picture of my first NTH! The blue dial, no-date Azores. After owning it for a couple weeks now, I am pleased to say my enthusiasm for the watch has not diminished. I'm finding I check the time more often now so I can admire that wonderful dial!


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## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




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## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> ....blue, Pantone....


Bronze
GMT
Swiss


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

martin_bergstrom said:


> Thanks for this outstanding reply  My hunt for one second hand will continue!


It just occurs to me now that you may have been speaking about the Watch Gecko version (seen below).

That's 534 C (white box, upper left quadrant of the wheel). Similarly neutral, vis-a-vis the mix of green vs purple, but slightly less saturated (less vibrant).









They just came back into stock at Watch Gecko, for anyone interested.









NTH Näcken Dive Watch - Admiral Blue - WatchGecko Exclusive


For WatchGecko’s newest collaboration with NTH, we wanted to imagine what the Näcken would have looked like as a vintage Submariner homage, but with all the specs you need from a modern diver. After months of inventive rendering and prototypes, we are proud to present the 2022 NTH Vintage Subs...




www.watchgecko.com


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Such a great watch, and the bracelet is one of the most comfortable I have on any of my watches. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

and another of these...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

AardnoldArrdvark said:


> and another of these...
> View attachment 17082155


Bruh, seriously...no one's even heard of a Gull Tron or knows how to pronounce Guanqin. C'mon...it's time...


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> Bruh, seriously...no one's even heard of a Gull Tron or knows how to pronounce Guanqin. C'mon...it's time...
> View attachment 17082213


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone not really looking at other parts of the forum, we're doing a giveaway over here - GIVEAWAY - 30k posts.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

True story / minor rant -

(Side note - There used to be a regular here, who was also a local Philly guy, who worked as a postal carrier. I forget his name, but we used to enjoy giving him a hard time about postal service shenanigans.)

So...our local postal carrier is just the worst. We and our neighbors not only routinely get each others' mail, we frequently get mail from across town.

About six or nine months ago, I made the effort to find the local postmaster, hiding in his office, to complain. He told me that he doesn't supervise the local carriers, only the peeps who work in the post office itself. He gave me a number to call for the local carrier supervisor.

I must have called that number three times. It just rings and rings. No one picks up, and there's no voice mail.

It's ridiculous.

Last night, at our monthly poker game, my next-door neighbor gave me a Christmas card from my cousin, and also tried to give me two pieces of mail that don't even belong to us. It looked like credit card and utility bills.

ME: "Dafark is this? This isn't my mail."

HIM: "Wait, what? It isn't mine."

ME: "Bruh, look at the address. This isn't even our street. I'm not taking this. I'll keep the card, but you're taking the rest of this back. It's your problem."

I just told my wife that story as I was giving her the card from my cousin.

HER: "We haven't gotten any mail at all in the last two days..."

I mean...seriously? WTF? Who is my mail carrier, and what is his problem?


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## watchman600 (Mar 11, 2020)

@docvail Once in a while (not all the time, but TOO OFTEN to count),
we will get the mail of the family living at 819 even though we live at 918
(I'm making up these numbers, but you get the point),
AND they will sometimes get our mail.
I realize that 819 is similar to 918, but they are clearly different.
Luckily, we are both nice and just unceremoniously give each other their mail.
But it IS kind of frustrating and weird that it keeps happening.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Semi-related story: We live at 1111 2nd Street. There is, one block over, a 1111 1st Street.
In the past ten years, we have had all manner of deliveries come to our house that were intended for 1111 1st Street, including but not limited to Amazon deliveries, regular mail, furniture, appliances, a grand piano once, and--I kid you not--the fire department showed up one time with sirens blaring and guys started getting out of the truck, at which point I came running out of my house, pointing at the smoke coming from the house a block over.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I once lived in Apartment 3Z. That's number 3, letter Z. The 3 stood for the 3rd floor, and the Z was the last of 26 apartments on that floor. (It was a big building.)

Well as you can imagine, 3Z was often mistakenly written as 32. But the mail carrier(s) absolutely positively would not deliver anything addressed to Apt.32: it always got sent back to the sender as undeliverable. It took me months to figure out that this was going on.


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## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 17097106
> 
> View attachment 17097107


Anyone interested in this watch, it's for sale by Gabe (@uvalaw2005 ). I've done a few transactions with Gabe, all flawless. Buy with confidence.









FS: NTH DevilRay White Dial No Date, WatchGecko Limited...


For sale is my excellent condition white dial, no date NTH DevilRay WatchGecko limited edition. Comes with case, sleeve, and all links. Bracelet sized but unworn (plastic still on clasp). 43mm diameter, 46mm lug to lug, 22mm lug width Seiko NH38 no-date movement Sapphire crystal Screw-down...




www.watchuseek.com





Other interesting listings (IMO) - 

v.1 Amphion Vintage Gilt. Looks pretty minty. I feel like I should know the true identity of seller @3WR , but at this moment, the name escapes me. Regardless, I think he's a regular poster in this thread, so most probably a solid dude. If he PM's or emails me to complain I didn't vouch for him already, I will.









FS: NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt w/ date


NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt w/ date This thing is a beaut. But I have to clear out some space in the old watch box. Head has been worn sparingly on a different strap. Will come with a still-wrapped bracelet, extra links (that come with NTHs separate from the bracelet), NTH box. $450 shipped in...




www.watchuseek.com





v.2 Amphion Vintage Gilt. I'm sure I've seen the seller around the forums, but again, can't remember who he is for sure, nor do I know or remember enough to vouch for him. But five-hundy for a 2-month-old watch that sold for $725 new, when it's still in LNIB condition, seems like a steal.









FS: NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt - NEW


For sale is my NTH Amphion Vintage Gilt. This watch was purchased a couple of months ago. I sized it and tried it on a few times but never wore it out anywhere. It is in new perfect condition. All original boxes, flashlight and card come with it. Free USPS Priority Mail shipping to any USA...




www.watchuseek.com





Lastly - these are literally (not figuratively) the most craptastic pics I've ever seen in a sales listing, but it's a DLC v.1 Barracuda Vintage Black no-date. We only made 10. We sold them for $750, and the current bid is only $182.50.









NTH Barracuda Watch (Vintage BLACK, DLC, No Date on Oyster) | eBay


9015 (28800bph). Now with a durable black DLC coating for a whole new look. This watch is a great choice for nearly any wrist and for nearly any occasion! Bezel material Steel with DLC coating. Coating DLC black.



www.ebay.com


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

3WR is a member with BSH. Good guy, I can also vouch.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Rhorya said:


> 3WR is a member with BSH. Good guy, I can also vouch.


Same - same. Good guy, do trust.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

BNIB v.1 Nacken Modern Blue with date, anyone?

FS: BNIB (really!) NTH Nacken Modern Blue w/ date | 40mm...

It’s definitely a v.1. I’ll vouch for the seller as a solid dude.

Not 100% positive about the production date. That’s the newer bracelet with improved clasp and fully articulated links, but not the new-new end-link with the machined center-section.

If I had to guess, I’d say it was released no more recently than January 2021, making it roughly 2 years old, maybe a little more, but still, BNIB / unworn. $425 shipped in US seems like a pretty good bargain, IMO.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Don't know if I'll be checking in again over the weekend, so might as well say it now.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Travel safe. Don't over-indulge.

Catch you on the other side.


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## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

docvail said:


> Don't over-indulge.


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## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> 3WR is a member with BSH. Good guy, I can also vouch.





mconlonx said:


> Same - same. Good guy, do trust.


I can also vouch for @3WR Good guy, trusted seller


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## AardnoldArrdvark (Aug 7, 2019)




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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Watch pictured NOT actual size.


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Everyone survive Christmas?

Awesome.

Happy New Year everyone!

Be careful if you'll be out on the roads. Don't catch anything if you're kissing strangers after midnight.

See y'all next year...


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Guess I’ll start the year off with this one.


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## johnniecats (Dec 29, 2021)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Making my annual trip to the construction supply place where I get my rock salt and calcium for the driveway. Always laugh at their ladies' room...









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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Happy New Year, Folks....

*Nazario *_in "*Shade vs Sun*"_










_I love the way the yellow *Pops! *on this one..... 








_


Be Well,


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Happy New Year folks!









Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

New Year, not a new watch!


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## MagnumTI (7 d ago)

I picked up an Azores Absinthe and very much like the design and dial.


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## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Santa Cruz mod back on my wrist again. I love this watch.









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


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## martin_bergstrom (11 mo ago)

MagnumTI said:


> I picked up an Azores Absinthe and very much like the design and dial.


Pics? How does it wear compared to 40mm diver with bezel?


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## MagnumTI (7 d ago)

martin_bergstrom said:


> Pics? How does it wear compared to 40mm diver with bezel?


It is thin, wears nicely and is less bulky than most divers. The bracelet is a bit dressier than most divers in the price range as well, but still can be worn casually imo.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

martin_bergstrom said:


> Pics? How does it wear compared to 40mm diver with bezel?


The dimensions are almost identical to the 40mm Subs. The Tropics are just a tad thicker (I think 0.5mm). I could argue that the dial and handset are the same size (correction, the Tropics' visible dial is 1mm larger), so it should wear the same, but...I won't.

I think most would say it wears bigger than a 40mm with an outer bezel, because the inner bezel essentially makes it appear to be "all dial". Side-by-side with an NTH Sub, it doesn't really look any bigger (see pic in post below), but I think on the wrist, it just feels bigger.

If you can pull off a 42mm, you can get used to it. If 42mm is just way too big for you, no matter what, then you'll probably feel like it's too big, maybe. Maybe not.

My sweet spot appears to be everything from a 38mm no-bezel watch to a 43mm/44mm outer bezel watch, so for me, it's well within my wearable range.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

martin_bergstrom said:


> Pics? How does it wear compared to 40mm diver with bezel?


Apparently there's no way to edit a post by adding a pic within Tapatalk...









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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Curiously, I recently noted a competitor's watch that has a case diameter which is 2mm smaller than our 40mm Subs, yet it has the same exact crystal diameter, and a dial opening diameter that's only 0.5mm smaller than the Subs'.

And yet, 2mm difference in case diameter is HUGE, apparently. "OMG!!! It's only 38mm!!! Finally!!! Small wrists rejoice!!!"

It seems a little OCD for people to argue 2mm difference in case diameter is HUGE, when the crystal and dial diameter are effectively the same as a watch that's 2mm bigger, yet people will also argue that two cases with the exact same diameter wear completely differently, because one has an inner bezel and one has an outer bezel, despite both also having effectively the same dial diameter, just not the same crystal diameter.

The larger crystal that comes with an inner bezel doesn't seem like it should make that much of a difference in people's perceptions, if a 2mm smaller case with the same crystal / dial diameter legitimately seems 2mm smaller. It seems like one or the other dimension should matter more, not both equally.

I like my Atticus at 38mm. The lack of a rotating bezel makes the dial larger, so it has more "wrist presence" (I feel nerdy just typing that). I don't think I'd like a 38mm diver with a bezel, UNLESS the dial size was larger, somehow, but without making the bezel too thin. Neat trick if you can pull it off, but if you do, then maybe the total diameter really wasn't ever the issue for guys with smaller wrists, and it was actually lug length?

(Although, in the case of my competitor's watch that's 2mm smaller than the 40mm NTH Subs, it's only 1mm shorter lug-to-lug, which isn't much, making me wonder if wrist size is / was really the issue.)

I dunno. I keep coming back to the notion that dimensions are just numbers until you can actually try a watch on and see for yourself how it feels to you.

The 43.75mm 2K1's "feel" too big on me, but the thicker, 43mm DevilRay doesn't. Maybe it's the DR's smaller bezel (40mm). Maybe it's the DR's shorter lug-to-lug (46mm vs the 2K1's 50mm). Maybe the 2K1's feel wider because they're thinner (maybe their thinness exaggerates their width), whereas the DR's don't feel as wide because they're thicker (exactly the opposite of the 2K1's).

I refuse to believe that my mind or eye can discern the 0.75mm difference in total diameter, and that it's enough to make one feel bigger than the other. I think buying based on dimensions alone is a mistake.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I keep coming back to the notion that dimensions are just numbers until you can actually try a watch on and see for yourself how it feels to you.


Absolutely true.


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## starwasp (12 mo ago)

docvail said:


> Curiously, I recently noted a competitor's watch that has a case diameter which is 2mm smaller than our 40mm Subs, yet it has the same exact crystal diameter, and a dial opening diameter that's only 0.5mm smaller than the Subs'.
> 
> And yet, 2mm difference in case diameter is HUGE, apparently. "OMG!!! It's only 38mm!!! Finally!!! Small wrists rejoice!!!"
> 
> ...


After owning and wearing watches ranging from 36mm to 44mm I have finally worked out that the key measurement for me is lug-to-lug, and dial breadth is just almost irrelevant. Max length c49mm for a 7 inch wrist. Interested in others views here.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

L2L is the main measurement for me (within reason of course - with a 6.5" wrist I'm not going to be looking at much above 42mm) along with the shape/angle of the lugs - flat lugs are a no-no for me .... but I also find a larger visible dial size and slimmer bezel can make a 40mm watch give the impression of being larger


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

By way of reference, the NTH Sub v1 is a great fit for me; for fixed bezel watches, I prefer 36-38mm. Other considerations def include L2L, lug-drop, springbar placement, thickness, etc. 7" wrist. 

I can get away with larger watches, but prefer smaller ones. 44mm San Martin 6105, 42mm Seiko SKX - no problem, they have reasonable L2L measurements and smaller crystal/dial diameters, which make them wear smaller. OTOH, the 38mm x 47mm Hamilton KFA just seems too long, even with a sensible size, thin, and decent lug drop.

I've even tried 40mm fixed bezel watches with reasonable L2L - Sinn 856UTC, NTH Antilles White. To see either on my wrist, most would say they fit fine... but to my eyes, they are just too large - too much crystal, just that bit too much case. I hoped that maybe the white dial of the Antilles would be offset somewhat by the black bezel, and that the all matte black Sinn would wear smaller, but nope. Not for me. 

So current collection is a few 40mm or less rotating bezel watches (including Scorpene with Commando bezel insert), and a heap of fixed bezel sport watches in the 36mm-38.5mm range. ...including two Scorpene mods - white in an aftermarket SRPE case, blue in a 36mm Exp-style case.


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## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mack Friday









Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk


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## josiahg52 (Oct 19, 2008)

So tired of reading posts lamenting about 1mm. Like, they're disappointed the company went with 40mm instead of 39mm. "Why did they have to make it so big?", they whine. They want 39mm, some other jamoche thinks 36mm would be perfect for this watch or that watch, another thinks 38mm is the sweet spot. How about you design a watch and get it made.

I did have some concern about the modern Seamaster and how much thicker it was on paper than the early-2000s models. It is thicker but wears fine and it's not overly thick. It is heavier, though.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

starwasp said:


> After owning and wearing watches ranging from 36mm to 44mm I have finally worked out that the key measurement for me is lug-to-lug, and dial breadth is just almost irrelevant. Max length c49mm for a 7 inch wrist. Interested in others views here.





8505davids said:


> L2L is the main measurement for me (within reason of course - with a 6.5" wrist I'm not going to be looking at much above 42mm) along with the shape/angle of the lugs - flat lugs are a no-no for me .... but I also find a larger visible dial size and slimmer bezel can make a 40mm watch give the impression of being larger


FWIW - I've noticed that lug width tends to be 1/2 of case diameter, and lug-length is usually around 120% of case diameter.

Varying the lug width can make the case look wider (when lugs are narrower) or more "square" (when lugs are wider). I see it most often when halving the diameter would make an odd number, as with 42mm cases. You tend to see them with 20mm lugs or 22mm lugs, and 21mm lugs less often, because straps.

The lug length seems to be much more variable, in my observation. You can find 43mm cases with 46mm lugs (like the DevilRay), which is extremely short (107%) and 40mm cases with 50mm lugs, which is a fairly long lug length, proportionally (125%).

The more the dimensions deviate from the average / typical ratios, the more noticeable it is, and the more noticeable individual dimensions become.

As far as the lug-length goes, I think whether or not the lugs curve or point downward, and to what degree, matters a good bit, but ultimately there's a point at which the lugs are just too long for our wrists, no matter how much they curve or point down. And with some shorter lug lengths, I think curving or pointing the lugs down is counter-productive, because they can dig into the wrist.

I've had watches with 51mm-52mm lug lengths, and while I've been able to get comfortable with them on my ~7"-7.25" wrist, under 50mm generally works better.

Even lug-length though, by itself, isn't the only number that matters - the Seiko Turtle is 43mm, with minimal lugs, making the L2L just 43.5mm. Despite the minimal L2L, I still think it's too big, or maybe I just don't like its proportions.


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## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

My wrists are 8.1 inches, anything smaller than 40mm regardless of the lug length, looks like I’m wearing my Mom’s watch. That said, a bund strap makes 44mm lug length wearable. 

Apparently my favourite watch dimension combo is an SKX(42x46.5), but never on a strap, just bracelets with male endlinks. For a watch/strap combo, minimum 49mm L to L. For thickness, I’m all over the bloody place(thinnest 10mm, thickest 25mm(Deep Blue diver chronograph monstrosity). For me, in my hoard, concerning overall size of watches that I wear, the case seems to get thicker when the lug length gets longer, which seems to be comfy. I do have a few female endlink SKX bracelets, makes the wee buggers look like a turtle on a log attached to my meathook(short L to L and thick(ish) case). 

The people that seem to have rigid rules about watch size and dimension, are NEVER going to be satisfied(serial flippers, and “wish it were”s) until they hit their glass slippers. 

My answer: it varies. 


Sent from bizarro world via Tapatalk


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## MuckyMark (Aug 9, 2015)




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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MuckyMark said:


>


Nice lug length, bro!

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## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Nice lug length, bro!
> 
> Tapatalk is not responsible for the content of this message...


Pffff.....  That's like me saying, "Yo Slant, you look especially handsome today!"


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Done did it, doc!


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

RotorRonin said:


> View attachment 17095878


That looks phenomenal. Where is the insert from!?


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Caltex88 said:


> That looks phenomenal. Where is the insert from!?


It's the blue NTH WatchGecko exclusive aluminum insert, brushed with a red 3M scratchy pad and then "ghosted" with a lye-based drain cleaner. 

Before and after shots:



















Difference between original bezel color (pictured is not the original bezel, but the blue is the same) and modded bezel color:


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Done did it, doc!


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Wow, hard to believe how long it has been since I checked in here. Life has a way of getting busy and somewhere along the way into my 40’s I started missing chunks of time where months seem to disappear at a time. I hope everyone is doing well. Kinda crazy to see the different watches released over the year since I was here last. Loving the collaborations especially the green a grey with the watch gecko. If only they were no date hahaha.

I am on the lookout for a Nacken Modern Black no date V1, but I’ll settle for a V2. If anyone knows of one for sale please let me know!


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Wow, hard to believe how long it has been since I checked in here. Life has a way of getting busy and somewhere along the way into my 40’s I started missing chunks of time where months seem to disappear at a time. I hope everyone is doing well. Kinda crazy to see the different watches released over the year since I was here last. Loving the collaborations especially the green a grey with the watch gecko. If only they were no date hahaha.
> 
> I am on the lookout for a Nacken Modern Black no date V1, but I’ll settle for a V2. If anyone knows of one for sale please let me know!


Welcome back to the circus that never ends.

You may want to set up an alert on Watch Recon and eBay.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

nonfatproduct said:


> Wow, hard to believe how long it has been since I checked in here. Life has a way of getting busy and somewhere along the way into my 40’s I started missing chunks of time where months seem to disappear at a time. I hope everyone is doing well. Kinda crazy to see the different watches released over the year since I was here last. Loving the collaborations especially the green a grey with the watch gecko. If only they were no date hahaha.
> 
> I am on the lookout for a Nacken Modern Black no date V1, but I’ll settle for a V2. If anyone knows of one for sale please let me know!











NTH Nacken Black | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH Nacken Black at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

nonfatproduct said:


> Wow, hard to believe how long it has been since I checked in here. Life has a way of getting busy and somewhere along the way into my 40’s I started missing chunks of time where months seem to disappear at a time. I hope everyone is doing well. Kinda crazy to see the different watches released over the year since I was here last. Loving the collaborations especially the green a grey with the watch gecko. If only they were no date hahaha.
> 
> I am on the lookout for a Nacken Modern Black no date V1, but I’ll settle for a V2. If anyone knows of one for sale please let me know!


My daughter was in Perth for the Christmas / New Year holidays from Norway. During their stay, my son-in-law had to have his Tag Heuer repaired and serviced, but it could not be done before he was scheduled to return to Norway. So during his stay, he has been wearing some of my watches. When it came time for them to leave Perth, he asked if he could "borrow" a watch until his is fixed and delivered to him.
After looking at all of my watches, he decided on the Nacken - Generation 1 (Black Dial & Bezel). I bought it from Chris in 2016, it had never been worn, still had all of the protective stickers in place. He certainly has good taste; I wonder what condition it will be in "if" it is returned.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is the part where I'm about to say someone is weird for never wearing a watch they bought but then realize I have clothes I bought but have never worn...


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> Wow, hard to believe how long it has been since I checked in here. Life has a way of getting busy and somewhere along the way into my 40’s I started missing chunks of time where months seem to disappear at a time. I hope everyone is doing well. Kinda crazy to see the different watches released over the year since I was here last. Loving the collaborations especially the green a grey with the watch gecko. If only they were no date hahaha.
> 
> I am on the lookout for a Nacken Modern Black no date V1, but I’ll settle for a V2. If anyone knows of one for sale please let me know!





RotorRonin said:


> NTH Nacken Black | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NTH Nacken Black at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> ...


FWIW, looking at that bracelet / clasp indicates a date of production / release in either October 2016 or April 2018.

Fun fact - @Rhorya was the last guy to buy a Nacken Modern Black with the old bracelet / clasp from my website, in August 2018.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Vintage vibes.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

@RotorRonin thank you for the listing info. I may have to set aside my hatred of ebay and make a bid on that one. It is the only no date V1 i’ve seen listed anywhere.

@docvail I appreciate the info about possible year of original sale. Nice to think about possible service intervals/needs, but also reassuring since I’ve done that dance with you before and always had a great experience. 

I also see a skipjack listed on ebay. Thats another design that always piqued my interest…….


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nonfatproduct said:


> @RotorRonin thank you for the listing info. I may have to set aside my hatred of ebay and make a bid on that one. It is the only no date V1 i’ve seen listed anywhere.
> 
> @docvail I appreciate the info about possible year of original sale. Nice to think about possible service intervals/needs, but also reassuring since I’ve done that dance with you before and always had a great experience.
> 
> I also see a skipjack listed on ebay. Thats another design that always piqued my interest…….


Truthfully, if the movement was going to need replacement, we'd likely know it by now. As such, I wouldn't worry too much about the production date, and just assume the movement is good for the foreseeable future. 

I was just providing it in case it helps when considering the asking price for the watch. It's either just under 5 or just over 6 years old.

Believe it or not, there's still one BNIB no-date Skipjack sitting in Korea, if you're interested. Email [email protected] if you need help buying it.









인투와치


마이크로브랜드 시계 쇼핑몰




www.intowatch.com


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents...

I forget exactly who it was. It may have been more than one person, but someone here said something about getting a Mack eventually.

I'm just posting this because we're planning to send out an email blast soon, with some low-inventory alerts.

I'm down to 4 Macks in my own inventory. All with-dates, on the oyster bracelet. There's 1 with-date on BOR at Serious in the EU. And as of last count, there were ten or a dozen in the UK at Watch Gecko, a mix of no-dates and with-dates, all on the oyster.

We'll probably make more eventually, but I'm not sure if it will be later this year, or maybe next year, but as always, it may be never. If you wanted one, you should get one sooner rather than later.


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

nonfatproduct said:


> It is the only no date V1 i’ve seen listed anywhere.


If you end up with a V2, I'd happily swap cases!


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

docvail said:


> Truthfully, if the movement was going to need replacement, we'd likely know it by now. As such, I wouldn't worry too much about the production date, and just assume the movement is good for the foreseeable future.
> 
> I was just providing it in case it helps when considering the asking price for the watch. It's either just under 5 or just over 6 years old.
> 
> ...


ok down the rabbit hole I go lmao. The wife looked over my shoulder as I was comparing both models and said, “I like the skipjack better, and you should just buy the brand new one.” Gotta love a good woman who puts up with my nonsense and chasing watches to no end.

Jumped on the intowatch following your link and cannot figure out if there is a way to change the whole thing to english. Looks like I might have to shoot off an email this evening.


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## nonfatproduct (Aug 9, 2020)

Spent a couple hours last night trying to navigate the intowatch website. Used Google Chrome to translate each page and while I can get part way through the checkout process I am unable to enter an acceptable telephone number or mailing address. I sent an email and am waiting for a response to see if they will even ship to the US or how to order.

if anyone has successfully ordered from intowatch and has any ideas I’d love to hear them. Maybe I’m missing something simple…


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

#NTHursday


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