# Zenith El Primero Original 1969 38 mm Review



## WTSP

The Zenith Original 1969 is proving to be a favorite among collectors on WUS. The large concentration of purists on the Zenith Forum may have lead to this. I'm glad to now count myself among the owners of this terrific model and wanted to share some thoughts.

There have already been some great posts and pictures. Some of which include:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-el-primero-38mm-829572.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/my-new-38mm-tri-colour-1969-el-primero-arrives-tomorrow-925019.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/need-wrist-shots-38mm-36000-vph-641957-3.html

First the required wrist shots.








_It's cold out, around -5 F (-20 C). I've wondered whether having a high beat rate is an advantage in the cold.

_






_
Here it is, superimposed on a forest devastated by beavers. I'm not kidding._








_Given enough time beavers can wreak real havok. John Blashford never faced this sort of peril!_

*General design, face and hands
*
IMHO the Zenith A386 is one of the greatest designs in watch making history. It's a sleeper classic and one of the main reasons I bought the Original 1969 (O1969). The three colors on the subdials, the sunburst effect on the while background on the main dial, rhodium applied markers (in two sizes), the black circle enclosing them; it's a terrific *dial*. Small details like the varying length of the markings for the tachymeter contrast nicely with the regular intervals of the minutes and hours. The squarish, slightly technical numerals are great for this sporty design. Date at 4:30, where it should be!

The lettering for the Zenith logo is great. I liked the original cursive "El Primero", but the block lettered version is perhaps more modern. Besides, the cursive one is still etched on the back. Some have said that the "36,000 vph" and "Automatic" on the dial are redundant. I tend to agree, but they don't bother me. (The O1969 is part of the "36,000 VPH" line and the "Automatic" used be "Chronometer" in early models. Details...)

A word on *subdial overlap and legibility*. I was a hater, but then converted. Two reasons:
1- The El Primero 400 features a jumping minute hand for the chronograph's minutes subdial at 3 o'clock, which means that the hand is always resting on a minute marker, never in between. This makes things clearer even when no marker is visible.
2- Visually the minute hand forms a vector with the marker on the opposing side of the subdial, making it possible to distinguish 19 from 20 and other concealed markers by looking at the opposite side of the dial. Enough said...

As for the *hands*, although I love the A386, I actually preferred the ones on the A384 and A385, which most closely resemble the current Zenith Captain hands. Low and behold that's what Zenith put on the O1969! Great combination of silver, black and lume. The *lume* of the hands and markers glows brightly at first, but fades pretty quickly and is not a strong point. Given that it is a perishable feature I don't give it too much importance. The hands on the subdials are interesting in that they must intersect due to the subdial overlap. It's neat to watch! The red central second hand with the Zenith star at the butt is striking and really contrasts wells with the three colors of the subdials.
It must be said that with all the different colors, hands and reflective surfaces, it does get a little tricky to read in certain lighting.

*Movement*
A lot has been said about the El Primero 400. What can I add?

It's running at +2/4 seconds per day. The *sound of the pallets* running at 36,000 vph resonates slightly within the case of the O1969 in a way that is almost musical. The sound is more of "tink" than a "tick", I really enjoy listening to it.

The movement of the automatic *rotor* is present as a sensation, but not unpleasant or obtrusive. The fact that the automatic winding system is bidirectional offers enough resistance to avoid the dreaded uncontrolled rotor spinout that I personally abhor on other movements. The rotor is nicely decorated with côtes de Genève lines. The big star in the center is a little flashy, but the cutouts around it are nice since they reveal more of the movement.

The rest of the movement is well *finished*, but the only real decoration is perlage on the bridge (or is it a plate?) for the automatic winding. Other versions of the EP 400 have perlage on the entire surface of the movement (such as the bridge for the escapement and base plate), but these are usually larger models or higher end ones such as the Striking 10th. In the end the EP's heritage is not one which calls for extensive decoration and the small aperture of the rear crystal means that it is not as visible anyway. The EP 400 is relatively busy, showing all it gears and parts where more modern movements (such as the Omega 9300 or IWC 89361) tend to hide their workings under heavy plates and bridges.

Traditionally, *lettering* on Zenith movements was in yellow (or gold). They have switched to black which is more in line with what other manufactures are doing these days. Yellow/gold lettering seems to now be reserved for Zenith models that feature precious metal cases. I liked the yellow lettering, but in the end the black is probably more in line with Zenith's mid range models.

There is much discussion as to the superiority of the vertical VS horizontal chrono *clutch*. I prefer the traditional horizontal clutch in the El Primero as it allows me to see the mechanical action of starting the chronograph.

The same can be said for the *column wheel*. I like the blued steel column wheels in other movements (the Longines A08 for example). While the EP doesn't offer this, it's still an interesting sight to see it move when pressing the pushers. (Besides some purists have derided blued steel column wheels as being designed solely to impress neophytes.)

*Case, crown and pushers
*
The *crown* is large enough that it is easy to wind, a good thing considering to the characteristic stiffness of the EP 400. I like the fact that it isn't a screw in, something totally unnecessary on this type of watch. Screw downs get in the way when one wants to wind it casually to keep it running while not in the wearing rotation.
The *pushers* very much add to the vintage styling of the piece. I particularly like the etched grooves that encircle them. Small details count! Pushing them is also a vintage experience, and by that I mean that they are tough! I prefer the feel of the Stratos models, which seem to push in more smoothly with less resistance and offer a larger surface for the finger. Still, while it's tough getting the first push to start the chronograph on the O1969, the stop, restart and reset are slightly softer.

The *case* is one of the highlights of the O1969. Its shape is both smoothly elegant while at the same time having the sharp angular lug ends of vintage race watches of the 60s and 70s. Some models of the O1969 featured a fully polished case, this one has brushing on the top of the lugs. This is preferable in my book since it reduces some of the shine. When it comes to size, wearing a 38 mm model in this "post-Panerai" world of men's watches takes some guts. It's small, but it's comfortable, true to the original and avoids overstatement.

*Water resistant* to 100 meters, not too shabby for a watch that walks the line between sport and dress.

*Crystal and case back
*
The *front* *crystal*, another highlight! This elevated dome style seems to have taken off in recent years with sapphire being used to imitate the vintage shape of acrylic. It's curved enough to give and interesting shape, but not so much as to skew the view of the face. Its edges catch the light in a beautiful way.

The *back crystal* is a standard flat surface deigned to show the movement. On the O1969 it has been made large enough to show the essentials of the movement, but stops short just at the point where the weighted section of the rotor and the rotor's circular track around the movement begin. My feeling is that this is just large enough. The transparent case backs of the 42 mm models, especially the Zenith Captain, feel too large to me, creating an overexposure into every corner of the case. I prefer the smaller aperture of the O1969, just large enough to show all the parts of the movement.

*Strap and clasp*
The brown alligator and rubber *strap* is of terrific quality. Not overstuffed, nicely flexible, the sensation of the leather exudes luxury, while the rubber on the underside is very comfortable. Straps on the larger Zenith models tend to be thicker and feature a square flat profile. I preferred this thinner slightly curved one. The tops of the strap surrounding the springbars have a rounded profile, making it seem as though the springbars are curved. It's a nice effect, although I think that the springbars are straight, so no obstacle for swapping to standard straps!

The *deployant clasp* is the most recent type offered by Zenith, featuring pushers on each side to open the primary fold (facing up toward the wearer) and small ball bearings for the secondary fold (facing down away from the wearer). These ball bearings are a nice touch, as is the fact that the primary fold is longer than the secondary one, offering some control over any downward slide of the case toward the wrist knuckle. It's also quite wide creating a good balance relative to the case, avoiding the phenomenon where a thin clasp interior creates a pivot point on the inner wrist causing the watch to move back and forth on top on an angle. One criticism, the pin that enters the hole in the strap is a bit too long relative to the thickness of the strap, creating unnecessary looseness and thickness.

Thanks for reading!


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## srvwus

Awesome review! I only wish I would have jumped when they were available for a great price around the holidays from a gray market dealer

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## WTSP

srvwus said:


> Awesome review! I only wish I would have jumped when they were available for a great price around the holidays from a gray market dealer


Thanks for the kind words! That's basically how I got this watch.


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## D N Ravenna

Very nice! Thanks for your time and effort!

:-!

Dan


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## Jaqesq

Enjoyed the review...congratulations and wear it in good health...and hopefully some warmer weather.


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## sempervivens

Very nice review...congratulations


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## Fantasio

Great choice and nice review. |>

Springbars are really curved, at least mine had such.



WTSP said:


> The tops of the strap surrounding the springbars have a rounded profile, making it seem as though the springbars are curved. It's a nice effect, although I think that the springbars are straight, so no obstacle for swapping to standard straps!


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## jswing

Great review, thanks for taking the time. This watch really tugs at me. I'm torn between 38mm and 42mm. I'm kind of a strict 40mm guy, so either way would feel a little off to me I think. But in the end I think 38mm is the better option. I do hope to go into town and try both on at some point, although it's moot at this point since I'm not in a position to buy. It's a stunning watch.


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## Fantasio

IMO it wears bigger than 38 mm, feels like some 40 mm sized I have/had. Go and try which one feels better.



jswing said:


> I'm torn between 38mm and 42mm. I'm kind of a strict 40mm guy, so either way would feel a little off to me I think. But in the end I think 38mm is the better option.


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## Jaqesq

Fantasio said:


> Great choice and nice review. |>
> 
> Springbars are really curved, at least mine had such.


Mine are curved as well so you are definitely not alone. I like to change straps and was surprised to see that initially, but the curved spring bars haven't been an issue for my other straps. I've got the bracelet on order now (probably should've put a bit more thought into my initial order) and am looking forward to see how that mixes things up with this piece.


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## WTSP

Jaqesq said:


> Mine are curved as well so you are definitely not alone. I like to change straps and was surprised to see that initially, but the curved spring bars haven't been an issue for my other straps. I've got the bracelet on order now (probably should've put a bit more thought into my initial order) and am looking forward to see how that mixes things up with this piece.


Thank you both for the clarification! I've had curved spring bars on a JeanRichard before and really liked the look that it gave, hugging the case without being stuck to it. And it's true that standard straps did fit on that model. After poking at the strap on the Zenith Original 1969 I came to the conclusion that the top of the strap was cut in a curved shape but hadn't gone so far as to remove it to check the spring bars. I stand corrected.


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## Mr Plow

Thanks for sharing; great review!


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## HoganB

Great stuff. Thx


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## LoveisNico

so very beautiful. I just spent aprox 4 minutes staring and drooling at it. 
Thanks for sharing your treasure..

Nico


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## IGotId

Jaqesq said:


> Mine are curved as well so you are definitely not alone. I like to change straps and was surprised to see that initially, but the curved spring bars haven't been an issue for my other straps.* I've got the bracelet on order now* (probably should've put a bit more thought into my initial order) and am looking forward to see how that mixes things up with this piece.


please do post pics once it arrives


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## yonsson

Good timing and a great write up! I've sold a few watches the past days only to fund a purchase of this model, so I'm glad I found your excellent review today. I haven't handled this model yet, so I bought a 37,5mm Chinese chrono just to try out the size and style before buying. I think the 38mm looks better than the 42mm version, but I'm still a bit worried about the size. I'm quite sure the 42mm would be to large, so I really hope the 38mm version will look good on my wrist.


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## yonsson

I forgot to ask: what is the lug size please?


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## WTSP

yonsson said:


> I forgot to ask: what is the lug size please?


The included Zenith strap is 19mm at the lugs and 16 at the buckle. An inscription bearing "1916: on the inside of the strap confirm the measurement that I did with a ruler.


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## Splinter Faction

Great essay. So good that I'm pretty sure I'm moving this watch to the top of my list.


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## hoangwut

I was torn between this 38mm and the new Open 42mm, but after reading this post, i stick with the 38mm. IMO, the 38mm is still the classic size for dress watch. Have anyone changed the leather for steel bracelet yet? I am tempted to buy the bracelet alone to try it during summer time.


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## Jaqesq

hoangwut said:


> I was torn between this 38mm and the new Open 42mm, but after reading this post, i stick with the 38mm. IMO, the 38mm is still the classic size for dress watch. Have anyone changed the leather for steel bracelet yet? I am tempted to buy the bracelet alone to try it during summer time.


I bought the watch on the strap and then ordered the bracelet later. I like having both to switch things up. May want to consider buying on the bracelet initially if you haven't purchased yet because it might work out better cost wise. Also of note is the bracelet size, overall length is pretty short compared to all the other bracelets I've had. With a 7 inch wrist it fits quite comfortably, however, I use all of the links provided. If your wrist is much larger I would think additional links would be necessary.


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## sempervivens

Jaqesq said:


> I bought the watch on the strap and then ordered the bracelet later. I like having both to switch things up. May want to consider buying on the bracelet initially if you haven't purchased yet because it might work out better cost wise. Also of note is the bracelet size, overall length is pretty short compared to all the other bracelets I've had. With a 7 inch wrist it fits quite comfortably, however, I use all of the links provided. If your wrist is much larger I would think additional links would be necessary.


Sounds like the bracelet they give is a ladies size.

I've heard they do classify 38 mm watches as 'ladies watches' nowadays.

:think:


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## Jaqesq

sempervivens said:


> Sounds like the bracelet they give is a ladies size.
> 
> I've heard they do classify 38 mm watches as 'ladies watches' nowadays.
> 
> :think:


That is their marketing angle...fortunately for me I have girlie wrists and can get away with it. I've worn as big as 44mm but its nice to have a more traditionally sized watch on my arm for some variety.

Regarding the tri-color watches, the size differences (42 vs 38), and smaller lug distance (only 19mm on the 1969), it just seems to make sense to have a smaller bracelet too, though it does look easy enough to add links (all screws and no tapering) but it would cost a few bucks.


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## WTSP

sempervivens said:


> Sounds like the bracelet they give is a ladies size.
> 
> I've heard they do classify 38 mm watches as 'ladies watches' nowadays.


That's true, it's been categorized as both, which seems to have lead to some confusion. My "glass half full" view on this is that the design of this model marks an ultimate pinnacle of flexibility! ;-) It's unisex, suits all dress styles (dress, casual, sport, etc.) and is at once subtle due to its size yet striking due to its design and materials (super dome sapphire crystal, rhodium plated hands and indexes, etc.).

There are plenty of men's watches in sub 40 mm sizes. Look at the Piaget Altiplano models (38mm), Tissot Le Locle (39mm), Omega Speedmaster (38 mm for the 2915K), Omega Aqua Terra 25XX series (39 mm), and (need I mention) the Zenith A386 which is what it all boils down to when it comes to the Original 1969:
Comparing Classic Chronographs: Zenith's Something Old vs. Something New

More proof that a 38 mm watch can be a big model without being a large watch (taken from Zenith's Facebook page):









And finally, lest anyone still have doubts as to the place that the Zenith Original 1969 holds in the current lineup:


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## Jaqesq

WTSP said:


> That's true, it's been categorized as both, which seems to have lead to some confusion. My "glass half full" view on this is that the design of this model marks an ultimate pinnacle of flexibility! ;-) It's unisex, suits all dress styles (dress, casual, sport, etc.) and is at once subtle due to its size yet striking due to its design and materials (super dome sapphire crystal, rhodium plated hands and indexes, etc.).
> 
> Makes me wonder why the marketing team does not classify some pieces as a "unisex" offering (e.g. Some of the 38mm pieces). While I have no proof, my hunch is that far more men are buying something like the the Original 1969 than women. Oh well, I'm sure the management team over at Zenith knows what they are doing...yep, certainly wouldn't question any recent decisions. Hmmm


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## erreeffe

And here's my new entry b-)









Ciao, ;-)
R


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## BRIAN 3019 PHF

Every time is see this something old v something new review on hodinkee I cringe, the a386 the are showing is a complete fraking , and I don't just mean the dial, the case, hands, dial, everything is a fraking.


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## Hartmut Richter

Hmmmmm! Well, they might at least have made the model act like a chronograph. I.e. keep the chrono seconds at 12:00 and make the subseconds at 9:00 rotate. Even with the chrono on, the 9:00 subdial isn't stationary.....

Still, it is and remains one of the best current Zeniths IMO.

Hartmut Richter


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## WTSP

One element that I should perhaps add to this review is that I believe that this watch may have a silicon escapement. I see that this question has come up briefly on WUS before:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-uses-silicon-parts-ep-922828.html

What surprises me is that this would be on a "regular" EP cal. 400. My model number is 03.21.50.400, which confirms that this should be a normal caliber 400 movement. When I looked at the escapement wheel after first purchasing it, I didn't notice anything special since it's barely visible from under a plate. But after examining it more closely with a loupe, I see that it is in fact blue in color and has "V" shaped spokes which correspond to the star shape seen in the silicon escapement from the Zenith Synopsis and Bull-It.

Of course this wheel could perhaps be blued steel, just as the column wheel sometimes is (mine isn't). Only the absence of ruby pallets on the escapement fork would really confirm that it's silicon. I let the watch stop in order to try to examine the escapement fork (36,000 vph moves too fast for the eye). Unfortunately all I could see between the thin crack below the balance wheel and plate was that the escapement fork was also blue.

Perhaps other owners can look into this with a better loupe or camera? My equipment hasn't been sufficiently sophisticated to capture this. I hope someone will help confirm or deny this wonderful Easter egg!


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## ed21x

i have the blue column wheel, but am not sure what to look for, as I've looked through all the cracks and don't really see any blue


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## WTSP

ed21x said:


> i have the blue column wheel, but am not sure what to look for, as I've looked through all the cracks and don't really see any blue


Hi Ed,

What I'm looking to confirm is whether the escapement is a traditional one like this:









Or a new silicon escapement like this one. Note the blued escapement gear and palletless fork.









I'm trying to examine this from the opposite direction (not the dial side, but the under side). You have to look from the direction of the red arrow bellow the balance wheel and spring. It's pretty tricky.









From what I can see on my watch, the two parts are blue and the gear has star shaped spokes, but I can't see the tip of the pallets because they're obscured by the balance wheel.

The theoretical advantages of a silicon escapement would be:
1- Less or no need for lubrication due to reduced friction
2- Light weight
3- High durability
4- Attractive appearance (IMHO)

Look at all the hype surrounding silicon escapements by Rolex, Ulysse Nardin and Patek. Zenith seems to just be sneaking them into the El Primeros, including the regular caliber 400. I think this is a relatively significant development if it affects all El Primeros going forward...


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## ed21x

ahh nice, i went ahead and checked and confirmed that I have the pallet fork jewels, so looks like mine was an earlier production. chances are, these parts would be replaced with silicon come the next service, much like how rolex swaps out nivarox for parachrome blue hairsprings during servicing.


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## dgerardo

sempervivens said:


> Sounds like the bracelet they give is a ladies size.
> 
> I've heard they do classify 38 mm watches as 'ladies watches' nowadays.
> 
> :think:


Hi, I was interested in the 38mm El Primero, and then when I checked Zenith's website (a few months ago), it was indeed labeled as a ladies watch. That discouraged me of course, and I didn't understand why would Zenith make that decision given that the 38mm size was the original. But not a long time ago, I checked again and they removed the "ladies" label. It seems they corrected that horrible mistake.


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## sempervivens

dgerardo said:


> Hi, I was interested in the 38mm El Primero, and then when I checked Zenith's website (a few months ago), it was indeed labeled as a ladies watch. That discouraged me of course, and I didn't understand why would Zenith make that decision given that the 38mm size was the original. But not a long time ago, I checked again and they removed the "ladies" label. It seems they corrected that horrible mistake.


Thanks for the update!


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## WTSP

I'm bumping my own thread to post this article that came out relatively recently reviewing this same model:
Hands On: With The Zenith El Primero Original 1969, One Of Few In-House Chronographs Under $10,000 - HODINKEE









I'm really looking forward to seeing some new sub-42 mm models over the next few years. Fingers crossed after this oversized 2015 Baselworld.


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## dantan

This is a beautiful, classic, Chronograph watch. I wish that they would lose the date complication!


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## Hartmut Richter

And I am glad that they keep it! It's one thing that sets it apart from watches like the Rolex Daytona that are IMO significantly less functional because they lack it! I would excuse the absence in an elegant dress watch but not in one like the Original 1969.

Hartmut Richter


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## wills0_9

Hartmut Richter said:


> And I am glad that they keep it! It's one thing that sets it apart from watches like the Rolex Daytona that are IMO significantly less functional because they lack it! I would excuse the absence in an elegant dress watch but not in one like the Original 1969.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Agreed!

It sets El Primeros apart.

I use the date function frequently.
I have recently acquired a Navitimer 806 and have found that I can't do without the date. As a result it doesn't get worn when at work.

Will


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## WTSP

dantan said:


> This is a beautiful, classic, Chronograph watch. I wish that they would lose the date complication!


It's a matter of personal preference, but it's true that this model suffers from a number of design flaws:


Overlapping subdials
Many different colors
Date window at 4:30
Modest 38 mm case
Unnecessarily high beat rate
Old movement originally designed in 1969

However, I think that these are counterbalanced by its strong points, which I hope that you will consider:


Overlapping subdials
Many different colors
Date window at 4:30
Modest 38 mm case
Unnecessarily high beat rate
Old movement originally designed in 1969


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## dantan

I actually like the design of this watch, except that I do not like the date feature/complication. I just prefer watches without them, even though I have a few with them.


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## Matt C

Great review of an incredible timepiece. Thanks! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EnderW

Old thread, but what a great watch. And a nice review.
Adding a few pics on mine...


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## dantan

Thank you so much for the beautiful pictures. That is a great-looking watch. Timeless, too!


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## dgerardo

EnderW, great pics. May I ask what's your wrist size? Thanks


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## EnderW

dgerardo said:


> EnderW, great pics. May I ask what's your wrist size? Thanks


I got girly wrists - 6.5" circumference, not very flat. 38mm sits perfectly, 42mm was overhanging by quite a bit.


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## WTSP

I'm going to resurrect my own thread concerning the Original 1969 to reference an interesting post by kurtj29 on watchfreaks:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/zenith-el-primero-overlapping-subdials-problem-solved.44401/

I think he's done a good analysis of the overlap and gone one step further: publishing a photo of his finding that the markers on the hours subdial actually provide an approximate match to the absent ones on the minutes subdial.









For the past two years I had just been referring to the markers on the opposite side of the subdial, now I'm going to have another look to see if I can use the hours subdial markers to make quicker readings without the extra mental step of forming the vector visually.


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## WTSP

Hmm, in practice it seems that the usefulness of the hour subdial indexes is pretty limited since the minute hand just falls between them...










Still a terrific watch.


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## b-lot

Jaqesq said:


> I bought the watch on the strap and then ordered the bracelet later. I like having both to switch things up. May want to consider buying on the bracelet initially if you haven't purchased yet because it might work out better cost wise.


I was surprised to find out it doesn't. Ordering the watch on the bracelet and buying both the strap and deployment buckle is more expensive than getting it on the strap and ordering the bracelet.

Kind regards,
Bartosz


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## metalgear

i went for the 1/10th of a second, but now lusting for this one.
must be because of the nice pics !


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## b-lot

I'm looking to buy one, but the one I saw in real life at an AD seems to have a much lighter strap than those in any pictures I've seen or on the Zenith website.
It's definitely a dark brown, but not near as black/chocolatey, more orangy.

Maybe slightly darker this: http://www.s-parts.de/ebay/ZENITH_21_459_NO_1_1.jpg
The stitching and cracks running lengthwise are black though.

Are the pictures in this thread deceptive?


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## WTSP

Judging by the buckle in your photo, that is an older strap from the nineties or maybe early 2000s. Also the O1969 39 mm has brown stitching, not white. I'm pretty sure that if you checked the under side of that strap it would be leather, and not rubber like the current Zenith straps. 

As for the colour, it starts brown but darkens significantly over time. I find this happens to most straps.


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## WTSP

metalgear said:


> i went for the 1/10th of a second, but now lusting for this one.
> must be because of the nice pics !


I wonder if they will ever release a Striking Tenth in 38 mm. They've done a Stratos, the 42 mm and Lightweight. I assume that the movement doesn't have a larger diameter than the regular EP 400. Maybe one day...


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## Hartmut Richter

I don't know for certain, but it should have the larger diameter - you can tell because the date is at 6:00 and outside the totalizers. They had to enlargen the base plate for that feature (just like in the Cal. 400B as opposed to the 30mm Cal. 400).

Hartmut Richter


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## b-lot

WTSP said:


> Judging by the buckle in your photo, that is an older strap from the nineties or maybe early 2000s. Also the O1969 39 mm has brown stitching, not white. I'm pretty sure that if you checked the under side of that strap it would be leather, and not rubber like the current Zenith straps.
> As for the colour, it starts brown but darkens significantly over time. I find this happens to most straps.


The stitching is brown, and the underside is rubber. I couldn't find a picture of a Zenith strap in the exact colour, so I took something closer and tried to explain the differences. I understand it will darken, but I find the difference quite large.


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## b-lot

b-lot said:


> I'm looking to buy one, but the one I saw in real life at an AD seems to have a much lighter strap than those in any pictures I've seen or on the Zenith website.
> It's definitely a dark brown, but not near as black/chocolatey, more orangy.
> 
> Maybe slightly darker this: http://www.s-parts.de/ebay/ZENITH_21_459_NO_1_1.jpg
> The stitching and cracks running lengthwise are black though.
> 
> Are the pictures in this thread deceptive?


See the strap in the pictures below:



















That to me looks very different than the strap in the pictures in this thread or here: Zenith El Primero Original 1969 - Luxury chronograph watch

As I said in the other comment, the strap does have the rubber lining, Zenith deployment, etc. It just seems to be different in colour. Ligher brown with black cracks/seams v.s. very dark strap with lighter cracks.

Thanks in advance for any insights.


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## WTSP

b-lot said:


> See the strap in the pictures below:
> That to me looks very different than the strap in the pictures in this thread or here: Zenith El Primero Original 1969 - Luxury chronograph watch
> 
> As I said in the other comment, the strap does have the rubber lining, Zenith deployment, etc. It just seems to be different in colour. Ligher brown with black cracks/seams v.s. very dark strap with lighter cracks.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any insights.


The strap on those photos do look rather red in colour. I actually like the look. There is going to be variation strap to strap (different alligators?), also there will be differences in cameras and lighting that will lead to photos showing a hue that may not be the same in the flesh.

In the end it's likely that even the reddish brown strap illustrated above will darken and eventually look like most of the other pictures of the O1969 posted here.


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## b-lot

WTSP said:


> The strap on those photos do look rather red in colour. I actually like the look. There is going to be variation strap to strap (different alligators?), also there will be differences in cameras and lighting that will lead to photos showing a hue that may not be the same in the flesh.
> 
> In the end it's likely that even the reddish brown strap illustrated above will darken and eventually look like most of the other pictures of the O1968 posted here.


I'm sure it will, and I initially also thought about lighting etc. But what makes me think it's a different strap is that the lines are darker than the rest of the strap, while on the Zenith site they're lighter. I don't think there's anything wrong with the strap perse, but might prefer the darker one. Was just curious if anyone else has (seen) a strap like this, and perhaps knows whether they updated/changed it or something.


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## b-lot

I've pulled the trigger and am chuffed with it. Ask me what time it is


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## Fantasio

I'm asking where the pics are?



b-lot said:


> I've pulled the trigger and am chuffed with it. Ask me what time it is


Sent from Maxwell Smart's shoe.


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## b-lot

Fantasio said:


> I'm asking where the pics are?


Scroll up


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## Fantasio

Ooops, just read the last message on my phone. Congrats for an acquisition that shows excellent taste. ;-)



b-lot said:


> Scroll up


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## ed21x

i have it on a black alligator... feels like the watch is made for it


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## ed21x




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## elchicomalo

Taken indoors at night with flourescent lighting compared to black tissot










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## codexwatch

Oh this is gonna hurt the wallet


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## andruha

I am planning to order a strap from Camille Fournet for my new 38mm El Primero. Still debating the color. It seems to me newer (2016) production has lighter color than older dark brown straps. I also liked that strap was not thick when I handled it at the AD. In the end I went with the bracelet but want to get a strap too. Could you post how thick is the strap on your 38mm watch and what year is it. From reading the forum I understood Zenith strap is curved and has curved spring bars. Would be great to get a confirmation on this too. 

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk


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## ed21x

I personally just bought an aftermarket alligator strap from debeers, but you'll get very good quality from them, Rios, or Hirsch. All at a fraction of the CF price for maybe 90% of the quality. The el primero is not a thick watch, but is not thin either, and can use a padded strap to help balance it out on the wrist.


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## WTSP

I bought a CF light brown ostrich strap for a JeanRichard chrono that I've since sold. It was more padded than the Zenith strap (3 to 4 mm versus about 2 mm) and had a leather rather than rubber lining. It was a very nice strap though. I'll try to find pictures and post later when I'm back on my computer. 

Debeers does seems to have some very nice straps at competitive prices and I'd probably go with them for my next purchase.


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## andruha

Thank you ed21x and WTSP for your answers. I am in US and don't have debeers near me. At the same time it looks like I can get CF strap with rubber lining and the cost is around $250. I am hoping it would be very close to zenith original but at lower price. Plus I can customize padding and length. Hence was the question about original zenith strap thickness.

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk


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## franco60

b-lot said:


> See the strap in the pictures below:
> View attachment 9293778
> View attachment 9293786
> View attachment 9293794
> 
> That to me looks very different than the strap in the pictures in this thread or here: Zenith El Primero Original 1969 - Luxury chronograph watch
> 
> As I said in the other comment, the strap does have the rubber lining, Zenith deployment, etc. It just seems to be different in colour. Ligher brown with black cracks/seams v.s. very dark strap with lighter cracks.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any insights.


It appears (appears??) to me the lighter brown with darker seams is real alligator whereas all the EP OEM straps are gator embossed leather. Tell tale signs of real gator are an actual scale that, when bent, actually separates a little (for the gator to move). Real gator is also inconsistent scales/pattern whereas leather is one stamped pattern, multiple straps. At the EP price point, I always wondered why they couldn't spring for real gator.

I ordered mine with the bracelet (got it for only $150 more) and ordered these two real gator straps to try out. (I'm on week 7 of my 3-5 week wait that they extended 6-8 more weeks at this GM dealer - no names). Started to cancel when I found out new timeline but I really want this watch. I scratched my EP itch a little by acquiring a vintage Movado Datron HS 360 Super Subsea w/EP movement in the meantime! 









Here's genuine gator I'll use on EP. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WTSP

To my knowledge Zenith has never offered alligator patterned straps made of printed leather. News to the contrary was apparently a rumour, addressed here:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/has-...straps-2328786.html#/topics/2328786?_k=qjgisg


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## WTSP

I really like the OEM strap on the Original 1969 38 mm. It's the best I own on any watch. I've been wearing mine since 2013 so it's showing a few signs of wear. Nothing serious, but I'm noticing it. I don't like getting my alligator straps wet and I like rubber straps, so this led me to try out the Hirsch Urbane natural caoutchouc strap.

At 20 mm, it roughly matches the 19 mm curved lugs of the O1969. Unfortunately I wasn't pleased with the results when it got on my wrist.














































While the strap is of good quality, it was too long and the rounded look of the thick portion at the lug end of the strap was just too bulbous on top.

I've switched it back to the original strap, which is slightly worse for wear from having been removed and put back on. Thankfully I didn't scratch the case and lugs too badly. Just a few tiny marks.

The moral of the story is to be satisfied with what you have if it's good. However, the recent launch of the new 38 mm 146 model has me thinking that its strap would be a nice addition to my Original 1969. It might even cost less since it's leather. I'm going to look into procuring one if I get the chance.


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## Hartmut Richter

WTSP said:


> ...However, the recent launch of the new 38 mm 146 model has me thinking that its strap would be a nice addition to my Original 1969. It might even cost less since it's leather. I'm going to look into procuring one if I get the chance.


Thanks for showing that watch. Hmmmmm - I must say that I don't really think that it will become a winner. Why not? For a start, it only looks a little like the Cal. 146 models of the 1960s - i.e. it is just in that general *style* - but it doesn't emulate a certain Cal. 146 model. This is hardly surprising since there was practically no really distinctive Cal. 146 model (except the A. Cairelli - and they have already brought a remake of that one out). And the second thing is that this one has an El Primero movement.....

Remakes work best on either bringing out a watch that is a very close copy of a distinctive old reference or on varying the style somewhat but including the old (revived or old stock) original movement. Or, even better: both! Anything else is just a new model - even if it looks a little "retro". The watch is beautiful in its own right, but I can see nothing here to justify the designation "146".

Hartmut Richter


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## WTSP

Hartmut Richter said:


> Thanks for showing that watch. Hmmmmm - I must say that I don't really think that it will become a winner. Why not? For a start, it only looks a little like the Cal. 146 models of the 1960s - i.e. it is just in that general *style* - but it doesn't emulate a certain Cal. 146 model. This is hardly surprising since there was practically no really distinctive Cal. 146 model (except the A. Cairelli - and they have already brought a remake of that one out). And the second thing is that this one has an El Primero movement.....
> 
> Remakes work best on either bringing out a watch that is a very close copy of a distinctive old reference or on varying the style somewhat but including the old (revived or old stock) original movement. Or, even better: both! Anything else is just a new model - even if it looks a little "retro". The watch is beautiful in its own right, but I can see nothing here to justify the designation "146".
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I think that the markings on the 30 minute counter at 3, 6 and 9 minutes of the Hodinkee edition connected the new model to some of the originals with the 146 caliber. They seem to have included these markings on some mockups of the 146 and to have removed them on others.

Compared the image above from the Zenith website to those in this thread:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/zenit...3918978.html#/topics/3918978?page=4&_k=33ipxt


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## china

Any idea if half links are available for the bracelet on these?


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## Hartmut Richter

Yes, but the Hodinkee model didn't make the mistake of referring to the Cal. 146 in any way. Effectively, this is in no way a 146 hommage, it is a more generally available version of the Hodinkee watch! It is quite beautiful, yet I still feel that they should forget about the 146 designation.

Hartmut Richter


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## GreatLakesWatch

This certainly solidifies this watch as my grail watch; great review! I hope to have one some day.


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## RossFraney

I know this review is old, but I have recently fallen in love with this piece, does anyone care to speculate on the value retention available here compared to rolex watches?


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## Fantasio

Nothing beats Rolex in this area, and definitely not Zenith. Still love my EP nonetheless.



RossFraney said:


> I know this review is old, but I have recently fallen in love with this piece, does anyone care to speculate on the value retention available here compared to rolex watches?


Sent from Maxwell Smart's shoe.


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## WTSP

My experience looking through eBay over the past several years is that this model doesn't come up very often and sells at a price that is close to the original retail price minus the usual ~20% discount. This tells me that demand has been relatively strong (not to the same level as Rolex of course).

Surprisingly, it seems that the 42 mm version in its various non tricolour variants gets discounted more.


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## RSubmariner

Can someone tell me exact lug to lug, lug width of 38mm version, and does steel bracelet tapers from lugs to clasp? Thanks in advance


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## ccm123

Great review.


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## RSubmariner

And how do you guys compare build quality and finish (especially ss bracelet) with rolex/omega/tudor/grand seiko?


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## WTSP

RSubmariner said:


> Can someone tell me exact lug to lug, lug width of 38mm version, and does steel bracelet tapers from lugs to clasp? Thanks in advance





RSubmariner said:


> And how do you guys compare build quality and finish (especially ss bracelet) with rolex/omega/tudor/grand seiko?


The lug to lug width of the case is 19 mm, the clasp end of the leather strap is 16 mm. I can't answer for the bracelet as I don't own one.

i would say that the overall build quality of the Original 1969 is on par with anything from Omega and Rolex, superior to Tudor. I don't have much experience with Grand Seiko, but my understanding is that there are certain areas where GS really shines when it comes to the dial, hands and bracelet which the other brands that you've mentioned don't match, including Zenith.

The high point of the Original 1969 are:
1) The awesome domed crystal
2) The rhodium plated hands and indexes
3) The rubber lined strap and clasp with ceramic ball bearings
4) The case, words don't do it justice


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## k.och

WTSP said:


> The lug to lug width of the case is 19 mm, the clasp end of the leather strap is 16 mm. I can't answer for the bracelet as I don't own one.
> 
> i would say that the overall build quality of the Original 1969 is on par with anything from Omega and Rolex, superior to Tudor. I don't have much experience with Grand Seiko, but my understanding is that there are certain areas where GS really shines when it comes to the dial, hands and bracelet which the other brands that you've mentioned don't match, including Zenith.
> 
> The high point of the Original 1969 are:
> 1) The awesome domed crystal
> 2) The rhodium plated hands and indexes
> 3) The rubber lined strap and clasp with ceramic ball bearings
> 4) The case, words don't do it justice


Grand Seiko is just on a whole other level when it comes to finishing. But like the guy above me said, Zenith's finishing is on par with Rolex/Omega.


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## Baxxxton

Will a 20mm nato strap fit?

I wonder if the silver dial looks more "silver/greyish" most of the time or more "white" in the daylight?

Thanks for your answers, guys!


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## WTSP

Baxxxton said:


> Will a 20mm nato strap fit?
> 
> I wonder if the silver dial looks more "silver/greyish" most of the time or more "white" in the daylight?
> 
> Thanks for your answers, guys!


You probably could, unless the material was very rigid. I've been able to fit a 20 mm rubber strap on this model.

As for the background portion of the dial, it's pretty light. It can look white in direct sunlight.


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## b-lot

Baxxxton said:


> Will a 20mm nato strap fit?


It will, see:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-el-primero-36000-vph-my-first-luxury-watch-4402458-6.html#post43640027


Baxxxton said:


> wonder if the silver dial looks more "silver/greyish" most of the time or more "white" in the daylight?


Mostly silver/greyish I'd say.


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## b-lot

RSubmariner said:


> Can someone tell me exact lug to lug, lug width of 38mm version, and does steel bracelet tapers from lugs to clasp? Thanks in advance


just under 48mm. Note that they're angled as you can see in WTSP's picture, so at the wrist side they're just over 40mm.


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## mas12

Great review! This is my next sports watch for sure.

What are peoples' thoughts on the grey and the blue dial?? I love both but no idea which one I would choose!!


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## RSubmariner

Thanks everyone for information. It looks like, from pics, that bracelet tapers a little bit, at least 19 to 18mm, but I might be wrong. Are there any micro adjustments on steel bracelet?


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## lightspire

I like my 1969!









Here's another up close photo on a friends wrist:


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## LiquidPZA

Thank you, this was a great read!


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## mpaler

Beautiful piece. This one is high on my wish list


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## mpaler

For me the grey dial is ideal. Classic elegance- Tuxedo to blue jeans


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## franco60

WTSP said:


> One element that I should perhaps add to this review is that I believe that this watch may have a silicon escapement. I see that this question has come up briefly on WUS before:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-uses-silicon-parts-ep-922828.html
> 
> What surprises me is that this would be on a "regular" EP cal. 400. My model number is 03.21.50.400, which confirms that this should be a normal caliber 400 movement. When I looked at the escapement wheel after first purchasing it, I didn't notice anything special since it's barely visible from under a plate. But after examining it more closely with a loupe, I see that it is in fact blue in color and has "V" shaped spokes which correspond to the star shape seen in the silicon escapement from the Zenith Synopsis and Bull-It.
> 
> Of course this wheel could perhaps be blued steel, just as the column wheel sometimes is (mine isn't). Only the absence of ruby pallets on the escapement fork would really confirm that it's silicon. I let the watch stop in order to try to examine the escapement fork (36,000 vph moves too fast for the eye). Unfortunately all I could see between the thin crack below the balance wheel and plate was that the escapement fork was also blue.
> 
> Perhaps other owners can look into this with a better loupe or camera? My equipment hasn't been sufficiently sophisticated to capture this. I hope someone will help confirm or deny this wonderful Easter egg!


I just nabbed a 38mm on this forum after a year of trying and near misses and take delivery tomorrow (including an 11 week wait on a gray market one that never showed). Needless to say, I'm pumped. Out if curiosity because on balance I could care less, does anyone know if there is a date certain where they switched to the silicon escapement?

Also, like everyone, I went to great lengths to try to evaluate the size issue with regard to my wrists (about 7 1/8, but I wear my watches pretty snug and below my wrist joint), but I'm pretty sure the 38 will be perfect. I even contacted WUS members in this and other EP threads about their wrist size (up to 7.5" wrist) and perception of the watch, and all said it was perfect. Another tell-tale sign is the relative availability of 42mm vs. 38mm. 42s are much more plentiful and take longer to sell on the forum and 38s go in about 30 minutes, if that. I've found an edge to edge dial and thin bezel really expands the aesthetic, and quite frankly, even though I still wear everything I have from 36mm classic Rolex 1803 to a Seiko Bullhead with a 44mm heft, my sweet spot is 40-41mm. I believe this's one will wear similar to a 39-40mm visually, physically, and vibe-wise. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Will defintely post post wrist shots as soon as it arrives! Comments welcome.


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## WTSP

franco60 said:


> I just nabbed a 38mm on this forum after a year of trying and near misses and take delivery tomorrow (including an 11 week wait on a gray market one that never showed). Needless to say, I'm pumped. Out if curiosity because on balance I could care less, does anyone know if there is a date certain where they switched to the silicon escapement?
> 
> Also, like everyone, I went to great lengths to try to evaluate the size issue with regard to my wrists (about 7 1/8, but I wear my watches pretty snug and below my wrist joint), but I'm pretty sure the 38 will be perfect. I even contacted WUS members in this and other EP threads about their wrist size (up to 7.5" wrist) and perception of the watch, and all said it was perfect. Another tell-tale sign is the relative availability of 42mm vs. 38mm. 42s are much more plentiful and take longer to sell on the forum and 38s go in about 30 minutes, if that. I've found an edge to edge dial and thin bezel really expands the aesthetic, and quite frankly, even though I still wear everything I have from 36mm classic Rolex 1803 to a Seiko Bullhead with a 44mm heft, my sweet spot is 40-41mm. I believe this's one will wear similar to a 39-40mm visually, physically, and vibe-wise. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Will defintely post post wrist shots as soon as it arrives! Comments welcome.


Congratulations on your upcoming acquisition. I hope your watch arrives soon.

Concerning the timing of the transition into silicium escarpement parts, i don't think it's possible the establish a specific date. Based on anecdotal feedback from forum members and Zenith models on the market, it's pretty clear that it happened gradually around 2012 to 2013.


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