# The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC



## CitizenPromaster

This forum is littered with threads on the subject, but they usually are not very enlightening. Attempts have been made at an overview, but that hasn't stopped the question from reappearing. Hopefully this thread will change all that!

In this first post I will list interesting previous discussions and notable quotes. Later on I will adress some common misconceptions (like scratch resistance does not equal scratch proof) and discuss the past and present of Citizen titanium.

From: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/duratec-t-bright-z-diashield-dlc-303581.html


RPF said:


> The big three Japanese watchmakers have been quietly adding scratch-resistant watch cases and bracelets to their lineup since the 90s, especially Citizen.
> 
> To date, very few of these watches have been offered to the international market, which explains the dearth of English literature on these technologies.
> 
> I'd like to offer a brief walk-through of the various terms one will come across shopping for a high-end JDM quartz.
> 
> First, trademarks.
> 
> Duratect is a marketing term registered by Citizen. It is Japlish for _dura-techko_ or _durable technology_. A Duratect marked watch (on the caseback) has been surface treated, but a variety of methods are used on different models to achieve different levels of hardness and finish. In short, it is not descriptive to say Duratect. Rather the type of Duratect, for example, TIN, TIC, PTIC, MRK, DLC, GTIC, IP or combinations thereof must be specified.
> 
> [This is analogous to saying "that is a Citizen". No material information is communicated because Citizen has too many model lines to begin with.]
> 
> Brightz and Diashield are registered by Seiko. Brightz is a Seiko developed Ti alloy that's 30% harder than steel, and much harder than regular Ti. The main advantage though, is it's virtually indistinguishable from SS. A Brightz watch scratches about as easily as an SS one, but is much lighter.
> 
> Diashield is Seiko's version of DLC, and many new JDM models are Diashield treated. These include SS, Ti and Brightz models. Unfortunately, it appears the Diashield quality correlates with price band. The performance and aesthetics of a Diashield Spirit lags behind a Brightz, for example. It's possible the softer Ti on the Spirit is to blame though.
> 
> DLC, CVD (TIC/TIN and similar), IP etc refer to the hardening technologies, as they are commonly known. Casio employs all these methods in their Oceanus and MRG lines, which are Ti only. The only difference between Casio and their competitors is the absence of branding such as Duratect (a rather confusing term) and Diashield.
> 
> Next time the question "_Which is better, Duratec or bright_?" comes up, just note that 1) the spelling is way off and 2) the answer is way more involved than a yes-no.
> 
> I hope this short vocab guide makes it easier for the confused.
> 
> I'll take a stab at the _how-to_ in metals hardening if there is interest.


From: https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/seiko-dia-shield-vs-citizen-dura-tec-253509.html


El @ said:


> Since this has been resurrected and is walking, check what Seiya Kobayashi has to say on the matter. Scratch-resistant "Dia-Shiled" "Duratect" "DLC"...... â€" seiyajapan.com
> 
> _I often get asked just how tough (the case and bracelet) the metal Dia-Schild and Duratec (scratch-resistant) metal truly is._
> _I created a chart for easy reference. _
> _They are lined up in order of toughness according to Hv (Vickers Hardness) ranking system. _
> _They get tougher the further you go to the right._
> _*"DiaShield"* is about 2-3 times harder than Stainless Steel.
> __*"Duratect/DLC"* is about 5-7 times harder.
> __*"Duratect α"* is about 10 times harder. It is the same as Sapphire crystal._
> _It is used in models such as the AT9050-58A "Citizen Exceed"._
> _There is this much of a difference between Seiko and Citizen.（SEIKO may currently be developing new technology.）
> __The DLC(Diamond-like Carbon) doesn't mean that is is just as hard as a diamond、but that it has a structure similar to a diamond.
> __As a final note, even though they are tough to scratch, it doesn't mean that they can't be._


Also interesting, though full of erroneous views: https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/differences-between-citizen-pmv65-2271-jy8020-52e-634725.html

Some user experience: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/truth...h-tech-diamond-scratch-resistance-181216.html

All details about the different Citizen surface treatments can be found in later posts.


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## CitizenPromaster

OK, *MISCONCEPTION 1*. Titanium that is treated will not scratch easily, or untreated titanium scratches easier than stainless steel.

First of all, titanium, no matter the treatment, WILL scratch and ding. My 8 year old Promaster Pilot Chrono is full of both scratches and dings. However, compared to my 'simple' old Lorus (gray) titanium chronograph, the Ti +IP does look considerably better (from a distance). Be warned though, many people have been very disappointed or put off by how easy or visibly titanium scratches. Some say basic titanium has self-healing properties because a new TiO2 oxidation layer is grown, but it doesn't perform wonders.

Example:


J.D.B. said:


> I have a C-650 Skyhawk and it's got plenty of scratches in the fine blasted surface. Yup there ARE several grades of Ti out there.
> Josh


This poll gives a pretty solid verdict as well: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/does-titanium-scratch-easier-than-ss-199231.html

As I said before, Duratect has the best reviews, and DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) as well. https://www.watchuseek.com/f17/just-how-tough-dlc-your-experience-166223.html

The best Duratect out there is Duratect Alpha, but that is applied to only the most expensive models. None-Alpha modern JDM Duratect (as marked on caseback) seems to work great too though*. So if you are not into babying your watch, it might serve you well to pay extra for a JDM version with Duratect marking on the caseback. Downside is that finding them might be hard and until recently the JDM radio controlled watches usually only sync in Japan. These days the RC limitation is less of an issue because of multiband calibers.

*Please note: the stronger and darker JDM Duratect that many WUS users have experienced is AFAIK only part of the JDM Promaster line, as explained in the next post.


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## CitizenPromaster

*MISCONCEPTION 2: *Ti + IP and Duratect are a coating and when you scratch it you are done, it's impossible to refinish.

Well you can debate the terminology, as in the bottom quote in this post, but in any case it is not a 'painted' or spray applied coating but a surface treatment. The process differs for Ion Plating (IP), DLC (cold plasma) and MRK (curing) and so does the (depth of) the result.

For all intents and purposes, in EU/USA the term Super Titanium = Ti + IP = basic Duratect, though an EU/USA watch will not say Duratect on the caseback. However, the JDM Duratect we see on a Promaster JDM is slightly darker in color and reportedly more scratch resistant. And to add to the confusion, in Japan they use Super Titanium as a blanket term for all variations of Duratect.

My interpretation is that the EU marketing term 'Super Titanium' is Duratect TIC (see below images and Japanese table), equal in hardness to the EU marketing term Ti + IP = Hv1000-1200.

After my research for this thread I'm pretty certain the stronger and slightly darker Duratect we experience specifically on grey import JDM Promaster watches, where it says Duratect on the caseback, is in fact Duratect MRK = Hv1300-1500. MRK is AFAIK never mentioned on the watch/caseback. According to the below info it is used only on the (JDM) Promaster watches, which corresponds with WUS user experience as mentioned before.

DLC is easily recognised because it makes the watch appear black depending on the light. AFAIK there is never mention of DLC on the watch itself.











































The images above seem to suggest Titanium Nitride (TIN) is involved in the process, but Citizen Japan only ever mentions Titanium Carbide (TIC) as the resultant coating. See below.

From the Japanese site with google translate, Original: http://citizen.jp/technology/detail/duratect
The alignment is a bit off here, everything up to DLC is Ion Plating technology.

Dyuratekuto *それは、やわらかな発想から生まれた『硬い』技術です。​ It is born from the soft idea "hard" technology.*

デュラテクトとは、時計のケースやバンドに特殊な加工処理をすることで、日常使用によるすり傷や小傷から、時計本来の輝きや仕上げの美しさを保護するためにシチズンが独自に開発した表面硬化技術の総称です。​ The Dyuratekuto, by a special processing to watch cases and bands, from scratches and small scratches due to everyday use, Citizen in order to protect the beauty of the original shine and finish clock's proprietary surface is the generic name of curing technology.


加工技術​ Processing technology名称​ name主な特長​ Key Featuresピッカース硬度​ Pikkasu hardnessIP技術​ IP technologyデュラテクトα​ Dyuratekuto αシチズン独自の表面硬化技術【Duratect】に、最高峰となる新技術「デュラテクトα」が登場します。​ Citizen on its own surface hardening technology [Duratect], new technology that becomes the highest peak "Dyuratekuto α" will appear. 従来のデュラテクトTIC/PTICより2倍以上の硬さを実現しました。​ It has achieved a conventional Dyuratekuto TIC / 2 times more hardness than PTIC. 
貴金属を含まない素材をコーティングすることで、キズに強いだけでなく肌にも優しいのが特徴です。​ By coating a material that does not contain precious metals, the gentle to the skin as well as a strong scratch is characterized. 
カラーラインナップもWhite（SD-W）、Metal Gray（SD-MG）、Rose（SD-R）の3色が可能。​ Color lineup White (SD-W), Metal Gray (SD-MG), can be three colors of the Rose (SD-R). 貴金属に劣らない高級品に相応しい輝きも備えています。​ Shine worthy of the luxury goods that is not inferior to the precious metal also provides.Hv2,000～2,500​ Hv2,000 ~ 2,500デュラテクトTIC​ Dyuratekuto TICIP技術を用いて硬化被膜をコーティングし、表面を硬質化。​ Coated with a cured film using the IP technology, harden the surface. 鏡面仕上げおよびヘアーライン仕上げが可能となります。​ Mirror finish and brushed will be possible. 
・チタニウム色調を生かし、主にチタニウム商品に採用。​ - Taking advantage of the titanium color, mainly employed in titanium products.Hv1,000～1,200​ Hv1,000 ~ 1,200 デュラテクトPTIC​ Dyuratekuto PTICデュラテクトTICに貴金属であるプラチナをさらにコーティング。​ Further coated with platinum is a precious metal to Dyuratekuto TIC. 硬度の高いまま、その厚みを制御することで、プラチナの美しい色調やステンレスと同等の色調を実現。​ Remains high hardness, by controlling the thickness, realizing a beautiful color or stainless steel equivalent to the color tone of the platinum. 
・主に高級品、女性用商品に採用。​ · Mainly luxury goods, adopted in women's products.Hv1,000～1,200​ Hv1,000 ~ 1,200 デュラテクトGOLD​ Dyuratekuto GOLD独自のIP技術を用いて、窒化チタン皮膜上に金と合金化合物をコーティング。​ Using its own IP technology, coated with gold and alloy compound on the titanium nitride film. 従来不可能とされていた金色デュラテクトを実現しました。​ It has achieved a gold Dyuratekuto which has been considered to be conventional impossible.Hv1,300～1,500​ Hv1,300 ~ 1,500 デュラテクトPINKGOLD​ Dyuratekuto PINKGOLDデュラテクトGOLD同様に、窒化チタン被膜上に金と合金化合物をコーティング。​ Dyuratekuto GOLD Similarly, coating the gold and alloy compound on the titanium nitride coating. 華やかなピンクゴールドを実現しました。​ It was realized a gorgeous pink gold.Hv1,200～1,400​ Hv1,200 ~ 1,400 低温プラズマ技術​ Low-temperature plasma technologyデュラテクトDLC​ Dyuratekuto DLCDLCとはDiamond Like Carbonの略で、主に炭素と水素で構成される非品質のカーボン硬質膜をコーティング。​ A substantially, mainly coating the non-quality carbon hard film composed of carbon and hydrogen of Diamond Like Carbon is the DLC. 精悍なダークグレー色でデュラテクトのバリエーションが拡大。​ Expansion variations of Dyuratekuto in fearless dark gray color.Hv1,000～1,400​ Hv1,000 ~ 1,400デュラテクトDLC/MRK​ Dyuratekuto DLC / MRKガス硬化技術により、表面を硬質化したチタン素材にDLCをコーティング。​ By gas curing technology, coating the DLC the surface to harden the titanium material.Hv1,000～1,400​ Hv1,000 ~ 1,400 ガス硬化技術​ Gas curing technologyデュラテクトMRK​ Dyuratekuto MRKチタン素材に、窒素と酸素を表面から浸透させて、素材の表面を硬化処理しました。​ The titanium material, the nitrogen and oxygen to penetrate from the surface, has been curing process the surface of the material. キズがつきにくい、鏡面処理を実現しました。​ Scratch-resistant, it has realized the mirror surface processing. 
・過酷な環境で使われるスポーツウオッチに採用。​ And adopted in sports watches to be used in harsh environments.Hv1,300～1,500​ Hv1,300 ~ 1,500
「DURA(デュラ)」はラテン語で"硬い"の意味。​ The meaning of "DURA (Dura)" is a Latin word "hard". Hｖビッカース硬度：Vickers Hardness 材料の硬さを表す尺度。​ Hv Vickers hardness: measure of the hardness of Vickers Hardness material.

*表面硬化技術​ Surface hardening technique*

*IP技術（PTIC（プラチナチタンカーバイト）／TIC（チタンカーバイト）／GOLD（ゴールド））​ IP technology (PTIC (platinum titanium carbide) / TIC (titanium carbide) / GOLD (Gold))*










IP（イオンプレーティング）とは真空装置の中で金属をイオン化し部品の表面に被膜をコーティングする技術です。​ IP is the (ion plating) is a technology for coating a coating on the surface of the ionized part of the metal in a vacuum device. 乾式めっきとも呼ばれ、腕時計には主に装飾目的で使用されてきました。​ Also referred to as dry plating, has been used mainly for decorative purposes is to watch. 
シチズンでは独自の技術により硬質被膜のコーティング処理に成功。​ Citizen success in the coating process of the hard coating by unique technology. 部品の材質、形状、仕上げにとらわれず適用範囲が広く、カラーバリエーションも豊富です。​ The material of the parts, shape, wide range of application agnostic to finish, color variation is also abundant. 
高級品、レディス、チタン商品と幅広いモデルに展開されています。​ Luxury goods, ladies', has been deployed in titanium products and a wide range of models.

*低温プラズマ技術（DLC（ダイヤモンドライクカーボン））​ Low-temperature plasma technology (DLC (diamond-like carbon))*









プラズマCVD技術とは真空装置の中で原料物質を含むガスをプラズマ化し、化学反応させたのちに部品の表面に吸着コーティングする技術です。​ Plasma The CVD technology into plasma gas that contains the raw material in a vacuum device, is a technology that adsorption coating to the surface of the component in the mixture was allowed to chemical reaction. 
DLC被膜はダイヤモンド構造を一部含んだC（炭素）とH（水素）からなるアモルファス構造をとり、結晶粒界がないため高硬度で非常に滑らかな被膜です。​ DLC coating takes an amorphous structure consisting of containing a part of the diamond structure C (carbon) and H (hydrogen), is very smooth coated with a high hardness because there is no crystal grain boundaries. 
独特なダークグレー色は高級品、ファッションモデルのバリエーションのひとつとして拡大展開中です。​ Unique dark gray color luxury goods, is expanding deployment as one of the variations of the fashion model.

*ガス硬化技術（MRK）​ Gas curing technology (MRK)*









真空炉に窒素と酸素を封入し、熱処理を施すことでチタン素材の表面に20～30μmの硬化層を形成させることにより時計の表面を硬質化する技術です。​ Nitrogen and oxygen enclosed in a vacuum oven, is a technique for hardening the surface of the watch by forming a cured layer of 20 ~ 30 .mu.m on the surface of the titanium material by heat treatment. 
『軽い・錆びない・金属アレルギーを起こしにくい』というチタンの特性はそのままでケース表面の硬質化に成功しました。​ Characteristics of titanium called "less prone to light not rust-metal allergy" has succeeded in hardening of the surface of the case as it is. 
ハードな使用環境下で効果を発揮し、チタンのスポーツモデルに採用されています。​ To demonstrate the effect under hard use environment, it has been adopted in titanium sports model.

*複合硬質化技術（DLC／MRK）​ Composite hard technology (DLC / MRK)*










ガス硬化技術の「MRK」と低温プラズマ技術の「DLC」の特徴を兼ね備えた表面改質技術で、チタンのスポーツモデルに拡大展開されています。​ Features a combines surface modification techniques of "DLC" in the low-temperature plasma technology with the "MRK" of gas curing technology, it has been expanded deployment to titanium sports model.

*傷つきにくさの比較​ Comparison of the wounded difficulty*

当社耐傷試験機によるデュラテクト加工前と加工後の耐擦傷効果の比較​ Comparison of scratch effect after processing and before Dyuratekuto processing by the Company scratch testing machine 








試験条件：SiO2粉末混合天然ゴムにて2kg荷重・30回スライド磨耗(当社規格)​ Test conditions: SiO2 powder mixed with natural rubber 2kg load, 30 times slide wear (our standard) 
※注意：硬いものに擦りつけたり、強い衝撃を加えると傷や打痕がつく場合がありますのでご注意ください。​ ※ Note: or rubbed on the hard thing, please note that you may get is the addition of a strong shock scratches and dents. 
表面硬化処理ですので、素材そのものの硬化ではありません。​ Since it is a surface hardening treatment, not a cure of the material itself.

*材質硬度について​ About Material hardness*

代表的なケース（側）材質のビッカース硬度​ A typical case (side) Material of Vickers hardness 








ビッカース硬度（Hv）​ Vickers hardness (Hv) 
ビッカース硬度は、素材にダイヤモンド製の圧子を押し込むことで測定されます。​ Vickers hardness is measured by pushing the diamond of the indenter to the material. 
この試験方法は、極めて硬い材料も測定でき、また試験用途も大変広く、他の硬さ試験の基準にも利用されています。​ This test method is also extremely hard material can be measured, also testing applications also very widely, has also been used on the standard of the other hardness test. 
表面被膜硬度については、低荷重で被膜硬度のみを測定したものです。​ For surface coating hardness, it is a measure of the only film hardness at low load. 
日常使用による傷のつきにくさをそのまま表現する尺度ではありません。​ It is not a measure to directly express the luck difficulty of scratch due to everyday use.

*耐摩耗性と美しい黒を実現するデュラテクトDLC​ Dyuratekuto DLC to achieve a beautiful black and wear resistance*









DLCとはDiamond Like Carbon（ダイヤモンドのようなカーボン）の略で、主に炭素と水素で構成される非晶質のカーボン硬質膜のことです。​ The DLC stands for Diamond Like Carbon (carbon, such as diamond), is mainly that of amorphous carbon hard film composed of carbon and hydrogen. 
素材によって応用範囲が限定されていた表面加工技術DLCを独自の技術で改善。​ Improve the surface processing technology DLC the range of applications has been limited by the material in its own technology. 従来難しかった素材への加工が可能となり、シチズン独自の＜デュラテクトDLC＞が高い耐摩耗性を持つ硬く美しい黒のケースやバンドを実現します。​ It enables processing of the conventional was difficult material, providing a beautiful black case and band hard with the Citizen own <Dyuratekuto DLC> a high wear resistance.

More WUS discussion on technology.



RPF said:


> A short discussion on the above, leaving out the specifics.
> 
> 1. *Hard materials:* This is the most straightforward solution employed by Rado, predominantly ceramics and hardmetal. Hardmetal offerings from Chinese case suppliers are also on the rise.
> 
> Material strength and fracture toughness is in general, inversely proportional to hardness. Harder materials are more difficult to work with, due in part to the brittle nature.
> 
> Unlike SS or other metals shaped by CNC out of case blanks, ceramic/hardmetal cass are sintered from powder fed at high pressure into precision moulds. It is difficult to control tolerances due to machining difficulties post-forming. This affects the water resistance and is one reason (I believe) we have not seen a hardmetal dive watch. Screw backs are also troublesome for ceramics due to torque load.
> 
> Note: Sintering is just a fancy way of saying baking.
> 
> Overall, hardmetal is comparable in hardness to ceramics but has greater mechanical and fracture toughness. However, it is also much heavier, with a density approaching that of gold (SG 14-17, depending on binder used).
> 
> The main disadvantages of these materials are cost, brittleness, finishing difficulties and the high-tech, non-metal look on what is essentially, jewelry.
> 
> Note: Brightz is mentioned because this alloy retains the weight and strength attributes of Ti while improving aesthetics and hardness.
> 
> 2. *Hard coatings:* Most people are familiar with this, associating PVD with black metal watches.
> 
> We can add ion plating, ceramic coatings (rare) and DLC to the mix. Performance varies depending on substrate and thickness but the mechanical strength of the base material (SS, Ti etc) is not compromised. Coatings also improve corrosion resistance, although that's almost never a selling point on watches. (That is one reason why I never understood the use of 904 in watches.)
> 
> Application is similar to spray painting in a specialized chamber.
> 
> The main disadvantages are limited finishing options and poor ding (unless in tandem with other technologies) and scratch (DLC is an exception) resistance. Scratches that expose bare metal ruin the aesthetics more than on a plain metal watch.
> 
> 3. *Hardened matrix:* Standard machining workflow can be employed on traditional materials before the metal is hardened via heat or surface treatment. The finished product has the benefit of precise tolerances, superior wear characteristics and similar aesthetics to the original alloy.
> 
> Metals can be hardened two ways, throughout the matrix or just the surface, producing a functionally graded material.
> 
> Damasko heat treats their ice-hardened steel to a uniform >60 HrV, similar in hardness to other martensitic steels such as S30V used on premium knives. Quite impressive given the complexity of a watch case compared to a blade.
> 
> Better scratch resistance can be achieved through surface treatment, usually by diffusing carbon and nitrogen into the matrix. The hardness decreases with the penetration of the atoms, producing a material that's hard on the outside and tough on the inside.
> 
> Sinn's Tegiment and various versions of Citizen's Duratect employ this method. I've been told IWC also treats several of their Ti models in similar fashion but I've not explored this further.
> 
> One argument against surface treatment is the eggshell effect. The surface may resist scratches, but risks deformation due to the underlying soft metal. This is a valid concern but it should be highlighted an untreated watch will deform to a greater degree.
> 
> Surface treated metals usually appear dull and cannot be refinished by hand.
> 
> ***
> 
> Personally, I consider combinations of 2&3 to be the best compromise in terms of machining, scratch and ding resistance. Currently, Casio, Citizen, Seiko and a couple of Swiss brands have introduced models which are surface hardened, IP coated and DLC-ed. These are probably the best cases around, even though the ceramic/lanthanum/diamond cases of Rado are harder. For one, they have better tolerances, are lighter and mechanically stronger.


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## CitizenPromaster

Studying the above post carefully should answer pretty much all questions about Citizen's titanium treatments, except for: *can you refinish Duratect and/or Super Titanium?*

Well the jury is still out on this one. Basic Ti that is brushed for sure cleans up nicely and easily with the right material like Scotchbrite. There are a few examples on WUS, here is one: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/scratch-removal-tudor-pelagos-3154634.html and another: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/lets-talk-titanium-2746874-3.html#post24317242 I'm not sure about blasted/satin though.

The below bracelet of a Citizen Chronomaster is supposed to be Duratect, but on stainess steel and it will both scratch AND refinish!



rex said:


> This is what it looked like after approximately 2 years of wear. Not very impressive, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I sent the watch back to Japan for a make-over and she came back like this. I bet all they did was polish out the scratches and did not re-apply the Duratech coating.


My solution has been buying a second original titanium bracelet for my Pilot Chrono (expensive solution btw) so I can fully refresh down the road if I want to, but mostly to even be able to replace a broken bracelet after decades!


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## CitizenPromaster

In my final post for today, I want to follow up the clarification with some new confusion, because all of the above applies to modern Citizens, probably post 2005. Citizen has a long relationship with titanium and surface treatment and has improved it over the years. I dug up an old Citizen website from 2001 that explains (in Japanese) what Titanium they use. Duratect didn't even exist yet, the best they had was Dura Titan at Hv600-800.

So if you have an older (90s, early 2000s) titanium Citizen all bets are off. This brings us to *MISCONCEPTION 3: *underneath the fancy coating Citizen uses cheap a$$ (Grade 2 or whatever) titanium.










Now I am not saying Citizen uses Grade 5 (Ti6Al4V), I think they don't, but the first row in the below 'yellow' table seems to suggest Citizen doesn't use 99,7% titanium, which is 'pure' titanium like Grade 2. However, you might also say that all that is claimed in the first row is that Citizen doesn't use 99,7% grade titanium at the surface. What they actually use is anyone's guess, there are 38 grades! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy So I don't feel confident to say the misconception is truly a misconception, but it is likely Citizen has their own alloy recipe by now.

All I know is that the world's first watch with titanium case, the 1970 Citizen X8 Chronometer is often described as being 99,6% titanium. One was even for sale on WUS: https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-rare-titanium-citizen-x-8-chronometer-863955.html And here's another nice review: https://sweep-hand.org/2013/12/22/this-weeks-featured-watch-55-the-x8-titanium-chronometer/








In this official Citizen picture the X8 is pretty dark grey, as you would expect for pure titanium, but the sweep-hand example I find surprisingly light in tone. That could be 40 years of growing a titanium dioxide (TiO2) skin though.










So here's what Citizen says in 2001 (via Google translate).


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## CitizenPromaster

This video on Citizen Super Titanium is not very informative, but it contains some nice imagery.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Let me give you an example of a Promaster watch in non-JDM and JDM spec.

Here is the JDM CB0130-51E, notice the laser engraved Duratect on the caseback. For some reason Citizen also only provides the micro-adjustable clasp to JDM models :-(


















And here is the non-JDM (Asia?) CB0131-59E. The dial says Eco-Drive, and you can see Duratect is missing from the caseback, though it still says titanium in small print.


















It's hard to see any color diference in this comparison.

Personal note: if I didn't have my AS4050-51E, I would try to source a JDM CB0130-51E, it even receives EU and USA! I like the bracelet I have better though.

Speaking of my watch, it's the EU version (marketed as Ti+IP) of the JDM PMP56-2931, which in turn is the more affordable version of the JDM PMP56-2933 from 2006. The 33 was the first Citizen in Duratect MRK + Duratect DLC, which made it very expensive. Only Japanese RC reception though. Now the color difference is very obvious due to DLC. Color diference between AS4050-51E and PM56-2931 could be due to lighting.

A4050-51E

















PMP56-2931









PMP56-2933

















Notice again Duratect on caseback and micro-adjustable clasp.



















If you haven't realised yet, the PMP is pretty much my grail watch, here is some user experience on wear and tear: https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/ultimate-skyhawk-nighthawk-pmp56-2933-retrospect-679839.html


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Coincidentally, while making and updating this thread, Citizen Japan has updated it's Duratect page. The URL changed and they changed the scratch test info. In the one above they showed how MRK is superior to TIC. In the new one the superiority of Duratect Alpha is shown. New link: ãƒ‡ãƒ¥ãƒ©ãƒ†ã‚¯ãƒˆ ï¼»CITIZEN-ã‚·ãƒ�ã‚ºãƒ³è&#8230;•æ™‚è¨ˆï¼½ Translation below.

It is born from the soft idea "hard" technology. デュラテクトとは、時計のケースやバンドに特殊な加工処理をすることで、日常使用によるすり傷や小傷から、時計本来の輝きや仕上げの美しさを保護するためにシチズンが独自に開発した表面硬化技術の総称です。​ The Dyuratekuto, by a special processing to watch cases and bands, from scratches and small scratches due to everyday use, Citizen in order to protect the beauty of the original shine and finish clock's proprietary surface is the generic name of curing technology. 

加工技術​ Processing technology名称​ name主な特長​ Key Featuresピッカース硬度​ Pikkasu hardnessIP技術​ IP technologyデュラテクトα​ Dyuratekuto α従来のデュラテクトＴｉＣ/ＰＴｉＣより２倍以上の硬さを実現しました。​ It has achieved a hardness of more than twice than that of the conventional Dyuratekuto TiC / PTiC. キズに強いだけでなく高級品に相応しい輝きも備えています。​ Shine worthy of the luxury goods not only strong in the scratch also equipped. 
Ｗｈｉｔｅ（ＳＤ－Ｗ）、Ｍｅｔａｌ Ｇｒａｙ（ＳＤ－ＭＧ）、Ｒｏｓｅ（ＳＤ－Ｒ）の３色が可能。​ White (SD-W), Metal Gray (SD-MG), can be three colors of the Rose (SD-R).Hv2,000〜2,500​ Hv2,000~2,500デュラテクトTIC​ Dyuratekuto TICIP技術を用いて硬化被膜をコーティングし、表面を硬質化。​ Coated with a cured film using the IP technology, harden the surface. 鏡面仕上げおよびヘアーライン仕上げが可能となります。​ Mirror finish and brushed will be possible. 
・チタニウム色調を生かし、主にチタン商品に採用。​ - Taking advantage of the titanium color, mainly employed in titanium products. Hv1,000〜1,200​ Hv1,000~1,200 デュラテクトPTIC​ Dyuratekuto PTICデュラテクトTICに貴金属であるプラチナをさらにコーティング。​ Further coated with platinum is a precious metal to Dyuratekuto TIC. 
硬度の高いまま、その厚みを制御することで、プラチナの美しい色調やステンレスと同等の色調を実現。​ Remains high hardness, by controlling the thickness, realizing a beautiful color or stainless steel equivalent to the color tone of the platinum. 
・主に高級品・女性用商品に採用。​ · Mainly used in luxury goods and women for the commodity. Hv1,000〜1,200​ Hv1,000~1,200 デュラテクトGOLD​ Dyuratekuto GOLD独自の加工技術を用いて、硬質皮膜上に金と合金化合物をコーティング。​ Using a proprietary processing technology, coated with gold and alloy compound on a hard film. 
従来不可能とされていた金色デュラテクトを実現しました。​ It has achieved a gold Dyuratekuto which has been considered to be conventional impossible.Hv1,300〜1,500​ Hv1,300~1,500 低温プラズマ技術​ Low-temperature plasma technologyデュラテクトDLC​ Dyuratekuto DLCDLCとはDiamond Like Carbonの略で、主に炭素と水素で構成される非晶質のカーボン硬質膜をコーティング。​ A substantially, mainly coating the amorphous carbon hard film composed of carbon and hydrogen of Diamond Like Carbon is the DLC. 
精悍なダークグレー色でデュラテクトのバリエーションが拡大。​ Expansion variations of Dyuratekuto in fearless dark gray color.Hv1,000〜1,400​ Hv1,000~1,400ガス硬化技術​ Gas curing technologyデュラテクトMRK​ Dyuratekuto MRKチタン素材にガスを表面から浸透させて素材の表面を硬化処理しました。​ Titanium material by penetration of gas from the surface has hardened the surface of the material. 
キズがつきにくい、鏡面処理を実現しました。​ Scratch-resistant, it has realized the mirror surface processing. 
・過酷な環境で使われるスポーツウオッチに採用。​ And adopted in sports watches to be used in harsh environments. Hv1,300〜1,500​ Hv1,300~1,500複合硬化技術​ Composite curing technologyデュラテクトDLC/MRK​ Dyuratekuto DLC / MRKガス硬化技術により表面を硬質化したチタン素材にDLCをコーティング。​ Coating the DLC the surface by gas curing technology in hardening the titanium material.Hv1,000〜1,400​ Hv1,000~1,400デュラテクトα/MRK​ Dyuratekuto α / MRKガス硬化技術の「ＭＲＫ」と、「デュラテクトα」を組み合わせた技術です。​ And "MRK" of gas curing technology, is a technology that combines the "Dyuratekuto α". 硬質化した素材表面に硬質被膜が重なることで、更なる耐傷性を実現するほか、耐メタルアレルギー性も優れています。​ By hard coating overlaps the hardening the surface of the material, in addition to achieve the further scratch resistance, also has excellent resistance to metal allergic.Hv2,200〜2,500​ Hv2,200~2,500 
「DURA（デュラ）」はラテン語で"硬い"の意味。​ The meaning of "DURA (Dura)" is a Latin word "hard". 
Hv ビッカース硬度:Vickers Hardness 材料の硬さを表す尺度。​ Hv Vickers hardness: measure of the hardness of Vickers Hardness material. 
*表面硬化技術​ Surface hardening technique*

*IP技術デュラテクトα デュラテクトPTIC デュラテクトTIC デュラテクトGOLD​ IP technology Dyuratekuto α Dyuratekuto PTIC Dyuratekuto TIC Dyuratekuto GOLD*









IP（イオンプレーティング）とは真空装置の中で金属をイオン化し、部品の表面に被膜をコーティングする技術です。​ IP to ionize the metal in the (ion plating) and vacuum equipment, is a technology for coating a coating on the surface of the component. 
乾式めっきとも呼ばれ、腕時計には主に装飾目的で使用されてきました。​ Also referred to as dry plating, has been used mainly for decorative purposes is to watch. 
（③シチズンのイオンプレーティング P.58参照）​ (Ion see plating P.58 of ③ Citizen) 
シチズンでは独自の技術により硬質被膜のコーティング処理に成功。​ Citizen success in the coating process of the hard coating by unique technology. 
部品の材質、形状、仕上げにとらわれず適用範囲が広く、カラーバリエーションも豊富です。​ The material of the parts, shape, wide range of application agnostic to finish, color variation is also abundant. 
高級品、レディス、チタニウム、ステンレス商品と幅広いモデルに展開されています。​ Luxury goods, ladies, titanium, has been deployed in a stainless steel products and a wide range of models.

*低温プラズマ技術デュラテクトDLC​ Low-temperature plasma technology Dyuratekuto DLC*









プラズマCVD技術とは真空装置の中で原料物質を含むガスをプラズマ化し、化学反応させたのちに部品の表面に吸着コーティングする技術です。​ Plasma The CVD technology into plasma gas that contains the raw material in a vacuum device, is a technology that adsorption coating to the surface of the component in the mixture was allowed to chemical reaction. 
DLC被膜はダイヤモンド構造を一部含んだC（炭素）とH（水素）からなるアモルファス構造をとり、結晶粒界がないため高硬度で非常に滑らかな被膜です。​ DLC coating takes an amorphous structure consisting of containing a part of the diamond structure C (carbon) and H (hydrogen), is very smooth coated with a high hardness because there is no crystal grain boundaries. 
独特なダークグレー色は高級品、ファッションモデルのバリエーションのひとつとして拡大展開中です。​ Unique dark gray color luxury goods, is expanding deployment as one of the variations of the fashion model.

*ガス硬化技術デュラテクトMRK​ Gas curing technology Dyuratekuto MRK*









真空炉にガスを封入し、熱処理を施すことでチタン素材の表面に20〜30μmの硬化層を形成させることにより、時計の表面を硬質化する技術です。​ The gas sealed in a vacuum furnace, by forming a cured layer of 20~30μm on the surface of the titanium material by heat treatment, technology for hardening the surface of the watch. 
『軽い・錆びない・金属アレルギーを起こしにくい』というチタニウムの特性はそのままで、ケース表面の硬質化に成功しました。​ Characteristics of titanium called "less prone to light not rust-metal allergy" as it is, has succeeded in hardening of the surface of the case. 
ハードな使用環境下で効果を発揮し、チタニウムのスポーツモデルに採用されています。​ To demonstrate the effect under hard use environment, it has been adopted in titanium sports model.

*複合硬質化技術デュラテクトDLC/MRK デュラテクトα/MRK​ Composite hard technology Dyuratekuto DLC / MRK Dyuratekuto α / MRK*









ガス硬化技術の「ＭＲＫ」と、「デュラテクトα」または「ＤＬＣ」を組み合わせた技術です。​ And "MRK" of gas curing technology, is a technology that combines the "Dyuratekuto α" or "DLC". 硬質化した素材表面に硬質被膜が重なることで、更なる耐傷性を実現します。​ By hard coating overlaps the hardening the surface of the material, to achieve further scratch resistance.

*キズつきにくさの比較​ Comparison of flaws per difficulty*

当社キズ試験機による擦キズの比較​ Comparison of scratch friction by our scratch testing machine 

試験後のサンプル​ Sample after the test試験後表面の凹凸（粗さ）状況​ Unevenness of the test after the surface (roughness) situation








TI（素材）​ TI (material)
















デュラテクトTIC​ Dyuratekuto TIC
















デュラテクトα​ Dyuratekuto α









試験条件: アルミナ粉末（30μ）を1.5Kgfの加重にて30 回スライドさせたもの ※注意:硬いものに擦りつけたり、強い衝撃を加えるとキズや打痕がつく場合がありますのでご注意ください。​ Test conditions: alumina powder (30μ) what was weighted at 30 times slide of 1.5Kgf ※ Note: Please note that hard or rubbed in things, because you might get is the addition of a strong shock scratches and dents. 
表面硬化処理ですので、素材そのものの硬化ではありません。​ Since it is a surface hardening treatment, not a cure of the material itself. 
*材質硬度について​ About Material hardness*

代表的なケース（側）材質のビッカース硬度​ A typical case (side) Material of Vickers hardness 








ビッカース硬度（Hv）​ Vickers hardness (Hv) 
ビッカース硬度は、素材にダイヤモンド製の圧子を押し込むことで測定されます。​ Vickers hardness is measured by pushing the diamond of the indenter to the material. 
この試験方法は、極めて硬い材料も測定でき、また試験用途も大変広く、他の硬さ試験の基準にも利用されています。​ This test method is also extremely hard material can be measured, also testing applications also very widely, has also been used on the standard of the other hardness test. 
表面被膜硬度については、低荷重で被膜硬度のみを測定したものです。​ For surface coating hardness, it is a measure of the only film hardness at low load. 
日常使用によるキズのつきにくさをそのまま表現する尺度ではありません。​ It is not a measure to directly express the luck difficulty of scratches caused by everyday use. 
*耐摩耗性と美しい黒を実現するデュラテクトDLC​ Dyuratekuto DLC to achieve a beautiful black and wear resistance*









DLCとはDiamond Like Carbon（ダイヤモンドのようなカーボン）の略で、主に炭素と水素で構成される非晶質のカーボン硬質膜のことです。​ The DLC stands for Diamond Like Carbon (carbon, such as diamond), is mainly that of amorphous carbon hard film composed of carbon and hydrogen. 
素材によって応用範囲が限定されていた表面加工技術DLCを独自の技術で改善。​ Improve the surface processing technology DLC the range of applications has been limited by the material in its own technology. 従来難しかった素材への加工が可能となり、シチズン独自の＜デュラテクトDLC＞が高い耐摩耗性を持つ硬く美しい黒のケースやバンドを実現します。​ It enables processing of the conventional was difficult material, providing a beautiful black case and band hard with the Citizen own <Dyuratekuto DLC> a high wear resistance.


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## Meerkat

Great post. I have been trying to figure this stuff out for a year.


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## Crazy Cajun

Good stuff. I am sure there is an online college somewhere willing to give you a BS/BA for this work.


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## CitizenPromaster

My pleasure guys.

But the plot thickens. Either Citizen is becoming more sneaky or more generous.

Recently they released a new Promaster Sky GPS. To my surprise they use the same model number for Japan and EU, they normally don't do that. But the only differences I can find on the pictures is for Japan the dial says MADE IN JAPAN F900-S145398 Y and the EU version says JAPAN MOV'T-F900-S146017 TY (a different case number and therefor possibly a different case material). The JDM CC9020-54E is marketed as Duratect MRK, though AFAIK the caseback only says Satellite Wave. I see no indication that the EU CC9020-54E is also MRK, they just list it as titanium. Would they really go through the trouble of making two versions and changing only the marking on the dial?????
In the past they've saved the best for the domestic market. As reported, often the JDM Promasters, besides being Duratect MRK, also get a micro-adjustable clasp. The JDM version of this watch doesn't even have that, so there's even less obvious difference.

I have noticed in Japan the CC9020-54E is listed at 230,000 yen excl. tax = 2,020 EUR. Here in Holland, including 21% tax it is listed as 1,595 EUR. I can't explain the difference unless the EU watch is non-MRK (less production cost).
Amazon.co.jp discounts it from 248,400 (incl. 8% tax) with -20% to 198,700 yen = 1,745 euro, still a significant difference.
Extra cost for the DLC version CC9025-51E is 15,000 yen is 132 EUR (excl. tax). In EU the premium is 100 EUR (incl. tax) for the CC9025-51E.

My gut is telling me Citizen is just being more sneaky about their 'better' JDM Promasters. Maybe they have streamlined the model numbers to throw us off the trail?

I fear the EU 'Japan Mov't' is non-MRK. Because the alternative conclusion is that they are offering the Europeans MRK on a Promaster for the first time, AND at a lower price than to their Japanese customers...

EU









JAPAN


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## rudyr

Any idea what version of titanium is on the BN0141-53E Limited Edition Promaster? I've found shots of the caseback but haven't seen anything to indicate what it is?

*Edit* NVM - seems it's listed as Super Titanium.


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## mcnabbanov

love the citizen duratect titaniums, my pmd56-2952 has been holding up very well


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## CitizenPromaster

rudyr said:


> Any idea what version of titanium is on the BN0141-53E Limited Edition Promaster? I've found shots of the caseback but haven't seen anything to indicate what it is?
> 
> *Edit* NVM - seems it's listed as Super Titanium.


Yeah, just TIC on that one, no MRK. Nice watch though! http://www.mywatchmart.com/listing/...r-bn014153-titanium-sapphire-limited-edition/

That PMD56-2952 has my fancy too. In EU we only get a caliber E670 version (chronograph, German tower RC) of that design in the Promaster Land line, AS4030-59E, it's TIC, but no MRK of course and again we are unworthy of a micro-adjust clasp. At least it's a better watch than the US stainless steel BM6400-00E haha, maybe Citizen is still bitter about WWII. Best stuff for JDM, second best for EU/Asia, worst for USA, that seems to be the theme.










And as a final example, no Duratect on case back as compared to the JDM watch.


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## rudyr

CitizenPromaster said:


> Yeah, just TIC on that one, no MRK. Nice watch though! http://www.mywatchmart.com/listing/...r-bn014153-titanium-sapphire-limited-edition/


Yes, just picked one up for $419. Having owned the PMX56 as a long time daily, I didn't hesitate to buy this one given that it's upgraded to 300m and sapphire over the older PMX. And while only TIC, seeing the hardness scale is super informative; it's already hardened to approx. the same level as Sinn's tegiment finish.


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## CitizenPromaster

OK one more example, since I enjoy the detective work.

The most expensive Promaster Sky MSRP-wise in EU is the JY8020-52E, the brother of the JDM PMV65-2271. Both are caliber U680, the 4-band RC version of the ana-digi we know from the Skyhawk A-T. Official price for the JY8020-2E is 795 EUR (incl 21% tax), so you'd hope for once you'd get the full package. Especially when you see the official JDM price for the PMV65-2271 is 90,000 yen = 787 EUR + 8% tax = 97,200 yen = 850 EUR.
Looking at the front, they are exactly the same, both even say MADE IN JAPAN. Caliber and case number are not on the dial, so no hints there. No noticeable color difference in the metal either. But again, Citizen Japan lists the PMV as having MRK, the clasp has a micro-adjust and on the caseback the JDM watch says Duratect, while the EU watch says SAPPHIRE. There the case number is mentioned and of course they differ.

EU S075271
JDM T016677

EU









JDM

















A JDM version sold for $400 on WUS, now that's a bargain! https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-citizen-promaster-sky-jdm-3276706.html

So while looking into this I saw for the first time there is also a PMV65-2272 on a leather strap with white outer flight calculator ring for 85,000 yen. That's a small discount for losing a titanium Duratect MRK bracelet, but you do get a black DLC bezel. That's a cool feauture imo, they also did it on the PMD56-2776, but without dropping the bracelet. And on the PMD56-2952 mentioned above.


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## Alex De Large

I have read this thread with great interest as my Citizen has "Base Titanium" stamped on the back. Which I am told is the name for "Super Titanium".


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## RPF

Wow. I hardly ever visit nowadays and there are still plenty of quartz aficionados around.

Have fun guys in quartz land.


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## CitizenPromaster

Now if the bee's knees had a surface treatment, it would be Duratect α (alpha). It is as hard as sapphire, which should make it pretty much scratch-proof, because few people on WUS have scratched their sapphire crystal.

So far the only models I can find that have Duratect α are:

The 2015 Citizen Eco-Drive Satellite Wave F900 CC9000-51A, which was limited to 1,300 pieces worldwide, but is still available (probably because of the high (for Citizen) price









Launch in Autumn 2015 (scheduled)
CC9004-51E
Limited model (1,700 pieces worldwide)
Super Titanium™ (Duratect DLC + MRK)









Launch in Autumn 2015 (scheduled)
CC9000-51A
Limited model (1,300 pieces worldwide)
Super Titanium™ (Duratect α + MRK)

Caliber : F900, Eco-Drive, Satellite Timekeeping System・Global Positioning System, Accuracy of ± 5 seconds per month (when not receiving time signals), World Time in 40 Cities, Dual Time Display Function, Chronograph of 1/20-second measurement for 24 hours, Perpetual Calendars, Light-Level Indicator and Power Reserve Indicator, Alarm, WR10

















<Black Model> Duratect DLC + MRK (hardness: Hv 1,000 - Hv 1,400) <White Model> Duratect α + MRK (hardness: Hv 2,200 - Hv 2,500)

Then there is the thinnest Eco-Drive ever, the new flagship Eco-Drive One, but that is actually Duratect α on stainless steel.
































Eco-Drive One
Limited Edition
800 Pieces WorldwideEco-Drive One LaunchAutumn/Winter 2016 RefAR5014-04EAR5000-50EAR5000-68AAR5004-59HProjected PriceUSD 6,000USD 2,600 Case MaterialCermet
with binderless cemented
carbide bezelStainless steel (Duratect*5 α) with cermet bezel Band MaterialBlack crocodile leatherStainless steel (Duratect α) CrystalSapphire with anti-reflective coating Case Diameter
/Thickness38.25mm/2.98mm39.8mm/2.98mm *Design specifications only. MovementCal.8826 , Eco-Drive, Accuracy of ±15 seconds per month, Runs 10 months on full charge, water resistant 

Citizen Hong Kong quotes the CC9020 (also F900) - discussed earlier - as having alpha, but according to the press release by Citizen that is not correct, it is Duratect MRK.

So far I can't find any Citizen Exceed with Duratect α. Seiya Japan and other sources say the AT9050-58A has Duratect a, but I can't find official Citizen info that backs that up. On the Japanese website it's simply listed as Super Titanium.


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## Marrin

You deserve some kind of recognition from WUS owners! Such a great and informative thread!!
Thank you!

Sent from my HTC Desire 816 using Tapatalk


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## CitizenPromaster

Marrin said:


> You deserve some kind of recognition from WUS owners! Such a great and informative thread!!
> Thank you!


Thank you for your kind words! When I started this thread I wasn't counting on much appreciation, because in reality most people on WUS F21 Seiko & Citizen couldn't care less about this subject. Why?

1. Most WUS F21 visitors prefer Seiko over Citizen (I would guess 80% of threads is about Seiko)
2. Most WUS members prefer stainless steel over titanium because to them the light weight feels 'cheap' or 'flimsy' or 'insubstantial', i.e. they equate quality to heft, or they don't like the color of titanium.

So I'm already happy if just a few people find this thread informative


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## NorthMac

Another big thank you from someone still doing the research into a Ti travel watch. Re. Citizen vs Seiko, I for one like both for what I sense each does well - Seiko for its mech movements and divers (my MM300), and Citizen for its set and forget technology watches, and IMO its lead in GPS tech.


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## Pencey Prep

Thank you very much for this thread. I don't pretend to understand all the more technical stuff but it is great that you have done all the research and put it up here. A lot of my questions have been answered
Well done again.


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## CitizenPromaster

You are very welcome!

I noticed something while browsing the German page of Citizen Europe GmbH. The titanium models are listed as both Duratect STC and Super Titanium. STC = Surface Treated Coating. So just the regular Duratect = Super Titanium.

In the specs of the CC9025-51E, the DLC version of the new Promaster F900 Satellite Wave, as discussed at the top of page 2 of this thread, Citizen Germany lists the case as both Duratect DLC and Super Titanium, and the bezel as MRK + DLC. Which is not mentioned on the Dutch page of Citizen Europe GmbH, where for the CC9025-51E they just say 'Titanium', without even mentioning the DLC, though it is the exact same watch. So with any luck they are correct and the bezel is MRK + DLC which is a good recipe for scratch-resistance.

The non-DLC titanium CC9020-54E is not available in Germany, so they offer no indication if the bezel on that version has MRK too. Citizen Middle East for both versions of the watch lists the case as having Duratact + MRK (and one having Diamond Like Carbon), which I highly doubt, because it has the European dial code as discussed on page 2. Also, Citizen ME specs the bracelets on both models as simply 'Titanium', so my best guess is on both the regular and DLC model the bezel is MRK, but the case and bracelet are not.

I am still convinced the JDM version has MRK all over, as the page says (ãƒ-ãƒ.ãƒžã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ CC9020-54E ï¼»CITIZEN-ã‚·ãƒ�ã‚ºãƒ³è&#8230;•æ™‚è¨ˆï¼½):
Duratatek MRK チタン素材にガスを表面から浸透させる硬化技術を施し、キズがつきにくい鏡面処理を実現しました。​ We applied curing technology to permeate the gas from the surface into titanium material, realizing mirror surface treatment that is hard to scratch. ハードな使用環境下で効果を発揮し、チタニウムのスポーツモデルになどに採用されています。​ It exerts its effect under a hard working environment and is adopted for titanium sports models and so on.

On the DLC version page the MRK is confirmed again (ãƒ-ãƒ.ãƒžã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ CC9025-51E ï¼»CITIZEN-ã‚·ãƒ�ã‚ºãƒ³è&#8230;•æ™‚è¨ˆï¼½):
Duratect DLC / MRK

ガス硬化技術（MRK）により表面を硬質化したチタン素材にDLC（カーボン硬質膜）をコーティングし、キズつきにくさを実現しました。​ DLC (carbon hard film) was coated on the titanium material whose surface was hardened by gas curing technology (MRK), and scratch attachment difficulty was realized. 精悍な黒の艶やかさがより一層腕を引き立てます。​ The brilliance of fearless black complements her arms.

At the bottom of both pages they give their general story on Titanium with the non-MRK or DLC hardness rating, so that is a bit confusing, but I think it can be ignored.
Lightest Super Titanium ™ 
軽くて、つけていて心地いい。​It is light and comfortable to wear. 
キズに強く、いつまでも美しい。​It is strong against scratches and forever forever.

「軽い」「肌に優しい」「さびにくい」と、優れた特性を持つチタニウム。​"Light" "skin friendly" "rust resistant" and titanium with excellent properties. シチズンは、チタニウム加工の先駆者として、美しいミラー面、シャープな面構成を可能に。​As a pioneer in titanium processing, Citizen enables a beautiful mirror surface, sharp surface configuration. また、純チタニウムに独自の表面硬化技術「デュラテクト」を施し、ステンレスの5倍以上の硬さ（硬度：Hv1000～）を実現。​In addition, we have applied original surface hardening technology "Duratect" to pure titanium, achieving a hardness (hardness: Hv 1000 ~) of 5 times or more that of stainless steel. 日常使用のすりキズや小キズから時計の美しさを守る「スーパーチタニウム™」へと強化した。​"Super Titanium ™" that protects the beauty of the clock from scratches and small scratches of daily use. ステンレスの約1/2※という驚きの軽さで、美しい輝きがいつまでも楽しめる。​With the surprising lightness of about 1/2 * of stainless steel, beautiful shine can be enjoyed forever. 
※40%軽い​※ 40% light


----------



## Shanghai

I considered the same thing, buying a second bracelet for my citizen wave air that came with a few scratches as it was an ex demo watch, until i found out the price, i think it was £380 pounds off the top of my head, might have been £180, i know there was an 80 involved, but i remember being shocked at the price all the same. I decided to stick with the odd scratch. Haven't added anymore to it yet.


----------



## cdmackay

Shanghai said:


> I considered the same thing, buying a second bracelet for my citizen wave air


nice looking Air!

I have the same one but with orange highlights and the black urethane strap.

&#8230;

I've just bought an F900, model CC9015-71E.

Any idea which version of Duratect that might have, please? It's Super Ti case & band.

thanks much indeed, great thread.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I've been reading into the F900 caliber and I'm very impressed with the specifications. It outperforms the Astron GPS Solar on many levels AND is much less expensive.

As far as I can tell by the US and UK website the CC9015-71E is 'Super Titanium' as you mentioned so that is 'basic' Duratect as discussed in this thread.


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## cdmackay

CitizenPromaster said:


> I've been reading into the F900 caliber and I'm very impressed with the specifications. It outperforms the Astron GPS Solar on many levels AND is much less expensive.
> 
> As far as I can tell by the US and UK website the CC9015-71E is 'Super Titanium' as you mentioned so that is 'basic' Duratect as discussed in this thread.


Thanks much indeed.

Yes, I looked closely at a few Astrons, before ordering the F900, and I agree entirely. The Astron looked lovely, possibly better than the F900 (a bit), but seemed to be behind in many areas, for a lot more money. Too much for me, fortunately, which made the decision easier.

thanks again.


----------



## YoureTerrific

Wow. What a great thread, CitizenPromaster!

I've been looking at Seiya's chart and reading this thread, but I still haven't figured out one thing. The 8x Astrons have something vaguely named "super-hard coating" on both the steel and the titanium watches. *Does anyone know the hardness vickers for "super-hard coating" on the two metals?* Vig2000 reports good results on steel, but that doesn't tell us much regarding vickers/Hv. There's some conjecture that it's a DLC, but I haven't found a clear answer.

Thanks all!


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## CitizenPromaster

Glad you enjoyed the thread YoureTerrific. Sorry, I haven't been able to find any ratings on super-hard coating.

A little update to the thread and a blast from the past.

I have a very early JDM Citizen Attesa (late 80s/early 90s). Back when titanium was still a novelty (though I believe every Attesa was titanium as the USP) and when 32mm for a men's watch was normal! Granted my Promaster Sky Pilot Chrono (AS4050-51E) is pretty big even by today's standard, especially because of the huge sapphire crystal. But it really dwarfs the Attesa.

In any case, the point I want to make is that TIC, or ion-plated titanium, really transforms the material. My Promaster looks glossy in day light, though the bracelet and case are a satin finish, only the bezel is polished (and the inner, recessed parts of the links, which is hard to see in the picture). Compare that to the very matte, grey finish of the untreated titanium on the Attesa. I actually like the look of both, the duller the better even. Maybe I should switch to Tantalum watches ^_^


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## CitizenPromaster

Let's go back in time again. I got my hands on the first radiocontrolled Eco-Drive Citizen, launched in 1996 https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/citi...g-radiocontrolled-history-thread-3975170.html, though my example is from 2000. It also came in a titanium version with a rather special - but not necessarily pretty, due to the external antenna - case. It has TITANIUM stamped on the case front, which you might recognise from the classic Porsche Design Titanium Chronograph from 1980 (and it's 2010 re-issue P'6530).










The titanium on the RC Eco-Drive is still pre-Duratect and looks similar in appearance to the Ti on my early Attesa (as seen in previous post).




























In above picture you can see my European version (CAL. 9415) has a bracelet with folded links. Well, those patriotic Japanese did it again, because the JDM version (CAL. 9417) has rather thick solid links and a more sophisticated clasp as you can see in below images. Granted, my bracelet is even more lightweight, but this is another clear example how the JDM market got superior materials.


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## Mason Delpino

Wow! So many cool Ti Citizens on here. I personally like the feel of a titanium watch- meaning I don't necessarily equate heft to quality (because I recognize the value of quality materials such as titanium). I do have a titanium Citizen, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me if it has any sort of special coating, or if it is just plain titanium? It is on the "shinier" side, so I would think it's coated in something..


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## Pete_JBK

Very much enjoying your research Mr. "CitizenPromaster" ... Thank you for this one and the other one about AT ... Cheers !


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## yankeexpress

Thought about a Citizen Titanium, but got this instead:










OCW-S100 is 40mm hardened titanium, sapphire, solar, atomic, perpetual calendar, 30 time zones (very subtle, almost hidden, around the chapter ring), Made in Japan.


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## CitizenPromaster

@Mason Delpino: depending on the year you bought it (if bought new, i.e. year of production) it is probably TIC/Super Titanium. The clasp does say BASE TITANIUM BAND CHINA, so that would have to mean Citizen licensed it's proprietary process to the factory in China.

@Pete_JBK: I'm glad you enjoy it as I do!

@yankeexpress: the only thing wrong with Casio Oceanus is that they (no longer) sell outside of Japan! IMHO the only good watch is a titanium, solar, sapphire, perpetual calender, RC watch! (I do make exceptions, but they are usually cheap second hand additions to my modest titanium watch collection, as I will exemplify right now!)

The above 'first' RC Eco-Drive initially came out as a multi-zone non-Eco Drive watch in 1994, CAL. 8415. I tried to buy this watch on eBay today, but the seller cancelled my bid for no reason. Well I don't really need it anyway, and I wouldn't change the battery out of principle! ^_^



















I actually do have a (probably very rare) women's Citizen that also has TITANIUM stamped on the case front. It's a very quirky UFO model, the design of which I've only seen approximated on an equally obscure plastic women's watch. See pics below. It actually doesn't look bad on my wrist, it's a sleek looking watch.


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## Time In

.....after your 3rd post I was looking for the Reader's Digest version...so I skipped the rest. I'll go out on a limb and say "you are right ! ". The Seiko Titanium Kinetic I have is 20+ y old. Has been worn quite a bit and still looks good. I don't know what or if coated with anything. Sorry if my comment is short....I never check the chemical properties of my watch's components prior to purchase. So far no allergic reaction from any cars in my garage . I wish you hardness in you future.


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## CitizenPromaster

Reading this thread in its entirety is entirely facultative!

I believe I never posted the Citizen titanium milestones, so here it goes.


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## Mason Delpino

Yeah, this thread is a very interesting read! I knew there was a reason I'm partial to the Satellite Wave Promaster CC9025-51E- because it's freaking cool and coated in Duratect AND MRK..

Anyway, so my titanium Citizen "debuted" in 2002, and I bought it used a few years ago. Does that tell you anything more about it? Also (to make sure I understand correctly), Super Titanium is just Citizen's proprietary titanium that is 40% lighter and 5x stronger than SS?

Here's a link to where I found more info on the watch I have:
https://watchguy.co.uk/technical/Citizen/BL1090-50E.pdf

*Basically, I'm trying to find out if I can polish the band and case up and if it will look good after or if I will ruin it by trying to polish it..


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## CitizenPromaster

Good question, based on the information I've gathered in this thread, I would guess as follows. The milestone image says "In 2000, Titanium watch treated with surface hardening technology." On page 1 there is a yellowish table from 2001 that shows how far they had gotten, which was still a long way from the Hv of today's Super Titanium. By the way, it is not Super Titanium because of the '40% lighter, 5x stronger etc', that performance over stainless steel probably applies to all (untreated) titanium, but the proprietary part is the surface treatment and the technology they employ. Though I'm sure Casio and Seiko have very similar technologies, in the end it's all Ion Plating.

I think your watch might be in that intermediate category, possibly an early form of surface hardening, but not as hard as the 2006-onwards process. But from the looks of it they gave that model a polished finish from the factory, which is entirely possible with titanium, just not very easy (so I've read). So I think that 'simple' polishing accounts for the shiny parts of your watch. I'm not an expert on polishing, but in theory that could be redone by a professional, though your bracelet looks quite challenging. 

Does it have many scratches that bother you? I do know that not everyone who sent their watch away for polishing was happy with the result (loss of edge sharpness, deep scratches remain).


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## Mason Delpino

CitizenPromaster said:


> Good question, based on the information I've gathered in this thread, I would guess as follows. The milestone image says "In 2000, Titanium watch treated with surface hardening technology." On page 1 there is a yellowish table from 2001 that shows how far they had gotten, which was still a long way from the Hv of today's Super Titanium. By the way, it is not Super Titanium because of the '40% lighter, 5x stronger etc', that performance over stainless steel probably applies to all (untreated) titanium, but the proprietary part is the surface treatment and the technology they employ. Though I'm sure Casio and Seiko have very similar technologies, in the end it's all Ion Plating.
> 
> I think your watch might be in that intermediate category, possibly an early form of surface hardening, but not as hard as the 2006-onwards process. But from the looks of it they gave that model a polished finish from the factory, which is entirely possible with titanium, just not very easy (so I've read). So I think that 'simple' polishing accounts for the shiny parts of your watch. I'm not an expert on polishing, but in theory that could be redone by a professional, though your bracelet looks quite challenging.
> 
> Does it have many scratches that bother you? I do know that not everyone who sent their watch away for polishing was happy with the result (loss of edge sharpness, deep scratches remain).


 I think honestly the scratches don't bother me that much- I was more looking for a project  That being said, I tried polishing two of my older, second-hand Citizens. I forgot to take before pictures, but here are the results! I think it came out rather nicely. Also, I like the fact that it is now just brushed, instead of brushed and polished.


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## Mason Delpino

The last two pictures are of the titanium Citizen I was asking about before- I think the SS one, the first one, came out better than the titanium one..


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## CitizenPromaster

So I'm gonna take an informed guess here, which is that Duratect TIC Hv 1,000 - 1,200 debuted in 2003 on the JDM Citizen Attesa ATD53-2611 and it's family members. This was according to Citizen the 'World's first light-powered radio controlled watch with a full metal case', which seems like a good occasion to debut Duratect.





































Like me, some people actually liked the look of the untreated titanium, like this Japanese fella who took a picture of the difference.


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## Divine_Madcat

So, if you are up for more detective work, i might have something for you.

The other day, i bought this beauty (CC1086-50E):








But after doing some reading, am curious about what "level" of Duratect it has. Initially, i thought this model was only JDM, but a closer look shows the front and back marked with "Japan Movt" and not the "Made in Japan" i would expect; so i am guessing it is EU. In trying to search various sites, i feel like i see every word thrown around for it (DLC, TIC, MRK), and have no real idea. So, if you are up for a challenge..... :-D


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## CitizenPromaster

Since it's not a Promaster, it will not be MRK, but Duratect = TIC = Super Titanium and the bezel being black is DLC. So this video's description is correct: 



Nice score for sure! Likely you have the EU CC1084-55E version considering the Japan Movt. Citizen Elegance Heren CC1084-55E or USA/UK version CC1084-63E 
This JDM one does read MADE IN JAPAN if you look closely:


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## Divine_Madcat

CitizenPromaster said:


> Since it's not a Promaster, it will not be MRK, but Duratect = TIC = Super Titanium and the bezel being black is DLC. So this video's description is correct:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice score for sure! Likely you have the EU CC1084-55E version considering the Japan Movt. Citizen Elegance Heren CC1084-55E or USA/UK version CC1084-63E
> This JDM one does read MADE IN JAPAN if you look closely:


Wow, i hadn't even run across the different model numbers; i really appreciate the info!

I admit, i was kinda hoping it was a JDM model (just beucase it would be neat to have something uncommon), but it feels great either way. I admit i am surprised it has three model numbers; the JDM was the only one i kept running across, so i thought that was it. So again, thanks for the info, it really clears things up.

And thanks again for running this great thread - there is some seriously good info here (that frankly deserves a sticky on this forum...).


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## Cornelius

This info is awesome!


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## CitizenPromaster

In a Citizen history Japanese website I found (translated) reference to an earlier Duratect watch than the JDM Citizen Attesa ATD53-2611 from 2003. This year 2000 watch is called the Promaster Tough GMT, PMX56-2591 (not to be confused with the Promaster Tough Ray Mears).










I soon found out a few of these were actually sold on WUS, and you can see Duratect engraved on the monoblock caseback and a Duratect label in the box. https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-citizen-tough-gmt-titanium-pmx56-2591-ti-2337802.html
And from another sales thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/sold-citizen-pmx56-2591-promaster-tough-gmt-$375-770787.html









The 1999 Limited Edition Citizen Promaster Super Tough Robert Swan (PMX56-2571) was not yet Duratect, this watch used the technology DURA TITAN, which was Hv600-800 (see yellow table on page 1 of this thread).

I believe other titanium models in 2000 and 2001 did not get Duratect treatment yet. At which point did it become 'standard issue'? For Promaster I think around 2005, for everything else when the Super Titanium campagne launched?


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## yokied

CitizenPromaster - outstanding work. I had been bouncing around here and google trying to piece it together and somehow kept missing this thread. Thank you!

I just bought a Duratect TIC JDM (BN0111-54E mont-bell) as a beater. This thread has helped me temper my expectations of how durable it will be.


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## Pencey Prep

Great thread.

Sent from my F1f using Tapatalk


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## Tseg

Tomorrow I have the AT4010-E50 arriving. Actual on-line commentary from Citizen about its titanium or the black bezel treatment is limited. So what is the 'Base Titanium' indication on the case back suggest again? I'm just hoping I'm getting one without a weak bracelet pin as I've read a few reviews discussing bracelet pin failure on this model. Not sure the cause?


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## CitizenPromaster

What do you find 'limited' about the info on Citizen Citizen Eco-Drive Perpetual Chrono A-T AT4010-50E Atomic Timekeeping ? Case + bracelet is Super Titanium, bezel apparently black IP but not DLC.

Perpetual Chrono A-TModel: AT4010-50E[HR][/HR]This perpetual calendar is radio-controlled in 5 time zones, boasts a 1-second chronograph that measures up to 60 minutes, and a power reserve indicator. Featured in Super Titanium™ with a black ion plated bezel with blue and luminous accents under the anti-reflective sapphire crystal.


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## Tseg

CitizenPromaster said:


> What do you find 'limited' about the info on Citizen Citizen Eco-Drive Perpetual Chrono A-T AT4010-50E Atomic Timekeeping ? Case + bracelet is Super Titanium, bezel apparently black IP but not DLC.
> 
> *Perpetual Chrono A-T*
> 
> *Model: AT4010-50E*
> 
> [HR][/HR]This perpetual calendar is radio-controlled in 5 time zones, boasts a 1-second chronograph that measures up to 60 minutes, and a power reserve indicator. Featured in Super Titanium™ with a black ion plated bezel with blue and luminous accents under the anti-reflective sapphire crystal.


Thanks for that. Not sure how I missed it was Super Titanium™? It being my first titanium watch it certainly is a different look and feel to steel... very gray, and the polished bits very dark vs. the bright look of steel polished bits... but maybe that is just the lighting? It is a good look next to the black bezel and dial... of course this dial has subtle brown hues as well. If it weren't for the fact the Citizen brand has such a value-oriented reputation one might think they could capture an extreme premium for all this technology, but I guess it works for them. True that 'radio controlled' is last year's technology (vs. Satellite) but if you live and travel in the US it is all you really need... that is why I keep a Grand Seiko and Rolex GMT... backup if I go overseas. I also just noticed the bezel is ion plated... now I have to go read back on this thread to understand the ion implications.



Edit: just so you know I'm not crazy... here is the US website description... no mention of Super titanium. Any chance the US uses a different titanium? I'm not sure if Citizen talks up different things in different markets based on marketing research or truly uses different materials for different markets? Confusing. I guess the website you referenced was Canadian per the reference to Ontario is the watch registration section.
http://www.citizenwatch.com/en-us/watches/watch-detail/?model=AT4010-50E


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## jerouy

I am wondering whether Citizen has any "definitive" models at all.
I mean, as definitive as SKX series to Seiko, so definitive that you can recognize it from 10 meters away.
Can't think of any, which is sad.

BTW just noticed there is a unibody super-titanium Eco-Drive limited edition Promaster. 300M WR, sapphire crystal, simply elegant dial. Perfect.







Damn it, I want one


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## Meerkat

You, Sir, are The King.

I have two made in Japan Duratect watches. I should be grateful, but I really want an Alpha.


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## yokied

jerouy said:


> BTW just noticed there is a unibody super-titanium Eco-Drive limited edition Promaster. 300M WR, sapphire crystal, simply elegant dial. Perfect.


There's at least two threads on this already FYI. I'm pretty happy with mine. Possibly a bit excessive for a beater though.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/citizen-eco-drive-bn0111-true-successor-bm6400-4230290.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/just...r-version-royal-marine-commandos-4204658.html


----------



## Pencey Prep

jerouy said:


> I am wondering whether Citizen has any "definitive" models at all.
> I mean, as definitive as SKX series to Seiko, so definitive that you can recognize it from 10 meters away.
> Can't think of any, which is sad.
> 
> BTW just noticed there is a unibody super-titanium Eco-Drive limited edition Promaster. 300M WR, sapphire crystal, simply elegant dial. Perfect.
> View attachment 11618378
> 
> Damn it, I want one


They are limited edition models. I reckon the only thing that would significantly improve them would be a perpetual calendar. I wonder why they dropped it as similar models in the past had it. Nice anyway. JDM only of course.


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## CitizenPromaster

@Tseg: Citizen is very inconsistent from country to country in describing their titanium that's why this thread has ended up with terms like Super Titanium / TI+IP / TIC / Duratect etc. But as you can see on page 1, basic titanium looks very different and it cannot be polished, so rest assured your watch is no different from other Super Titanium watches. Ion Plating is a technology to deposit a layer, which can also be black. DLC is a different process (Low-Temperature Plasma) which is probably more expensive than Ion Plating, but also more durable.
Unfortunately some key images from page 1 are missing and I haven't yet been able to find them elsewhere. However, having anticipated the impermanence of internet images, I have a back up of the entire thing, so I will repost that section below since I've somehow lost the ability to edit my older posts.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

*MISCONCEPTION 2: *Ti + IP and Duratect are a coating and when you scratch it you are done, it's impossible to refinish.

Well you can debate the terminology, as in the bottom quote in this post, but in any case it is not a 'painted' or spray applied coating but a surface treatment. The process differs for Ion Plating (IP), DLC (cold plasma) and MRK (curing) and so does the (depth of) the result.

For all intents and purposes, in EU/USA the term Super Titanium = Ti + IP = basic Duratect, though an EU/USA watch will not say Duratect on the caseback. However, the JDM Duratect we see on a Promaster JDM is slightly darker in color and reportedly more scratch resistant. And to add to the confusion, in Japan they use Super Titanium as a blanket term for all variations of Duratect.

My interpretation is that the EU marketing term 'Super Titanium' is Duratect TIC (see below images and Japanese table), equal in hardness to the EU marketing term Ti + IP = Hv1000-1200.

After my research for this thread I'm pretty certain the stronger and slightly darker Duratect we experience specifically on grey import JDM Promaster watches, where it says Duratect on the caseback, is in fact Duratect MRK = Hv1300-1500. MRK is AFAIK never mentioned on the watch/caseback. According to the below info it is used only on the (JDM) Promaster watches, which corresponds with WUS user experience as mentioned before.

DLC is easily recognised because it makes the watch appear black depending on the light. AFAIK there is never mention of DLC on the watch itself.


















The images above seem to suggest Nitrogen gas (N²) and Titanium Nitride (TiN) are involved in the process, which is very confusing, because Citizen Japan only ever mentions Titanium Carbide (TIC) as the resultant coating. On top of that, TiN is gold in color and has a surface hardness of Hv2400. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitride Maybe that's why these images have been taken offline? See below for more on Citizen TiC and all the treatments.

From the Japanese site with google translate, Original: http://citizen.jp/technology/detail/duratect
The alignment is a bit off here, everything up to DLC is Ion Plating technology.

Dyuratekuto *それは、やわらかな発想から生まれた『硬い』技術です。​It is born from the soft idea "hard" technology.*

デュラテクトとは、時計のケースやバンドに特殊な加工処理をすることで、日常使用によるすり傷や小傷から、 時計本来の輝きや仕上げの美しさを保護するためにシチズンが独自に開発した表面硬化技術の総称 です。​The Dyuratekuto, by a special processing to watch cases and bands, from scratches and small scratches due to everyday use, Citizen in order to protect the beauty of the original shine and finish clock's proprietary surface is the generic name of curing technology.



加工技術​Processing technology
名称​name
主な特長​Key Features
ピッカース硬度​Pikkasu hardness
IP技術​IP technology
デュラテクトα​Dyuratekuto α
シチズン独自の表面硬化技術【Duratect】に、最高峰となる新技術「デュラテクトα」が 登場します。​Citizen on its own surface hardening technology [Duratect], new technology that becomes the highest peak "Dyuratekuto α" will appear. 従来のデュラテクトTIC/PTICより2倍以上の硬さを実現しました。​It has achieved a conventional Dyuratekuto TIC / 2 times more hardness than PTIC. 
貴金属を含まない素材をコーティングすることで、キズに強いだけでなく肌にも優しいのが特徴で す。​By coating a material that does not contain precious metals, the gentle to the skin as well as a strong scratch is characterized. 
カラーラインナップもWhite（SD-W）、Metal Gray（SD-MG）、Rose（SD-R）の3色が可能。​Color lineup White (SD-W), Metal Gray (SD-MG), can be three colors of the Rose (SD-R). 貴金属に劣らない高級品に相応しい輝きも備えています。​Shine worthy of the luxury goods that is not inferior to the precious metal also provides.
Hv2,000～2,500​ Hv2,000 ~ 2,500
デュラテクトTIC​ Dyuratekuto TIC
IP技術を用いて硬化被膜をコーティングし、表面を硬質化。​Coated with a cured film using the IP technology, harden the surface. 鏡面仕上げおよびヘアーライン仕上げが可能となります。​Mirror finish and brushed will be possible. 
・チタニウム色調を生かし、主にチタニウム商品に採用。​- Taking advantage of the titanium color, mainly employed in titanium products.
Hv1,000～1,200​ Hv1,000 ~ 1,200 
デュラテクトPTIC​ Dyuratekuto PTIC
デュラテクトTICに貴金属であるプラチナをさらにコーティング。​Further coated with platinum is a precious metal to Dyuratekuto TIC. 硬度の高いまま、その厚みを制御することで、プラチナの美しい色調やステンレスと同等の色調を 実現。​Remains high hardness, by controlling the thickness, realizing a beautiful color or stainless steel equivalent to the color tone of the platinum. 
・主に高級品、女性用商品に採用。​· Mainly luxury goods, adopted in women's products.
Hv1,000～1,200​ Hv1,000 ~ 1,200 
デュラテクトGOLD​ Dyuratekuto GOLD
独自のIP技術を用いて、窒化チタン皮膜上に金と合金化合物をコーティング。​Using its own IP technology, coated with gold and alloy compound on the titanium nitride film. 従来不可能とされていた金色デュラテクトを実現しました。​It has achieved a gold Dyuratekuto which has been considered to be conventional impossible.
Hv1,300～1,500​ Hv1,300 ~ 1,500 
デュラテクトPINKGOLD​ Dyuratekuto PINKGOLD
デュラテクトGOLD同様に、窒化チタン被膜上に金と合金化合物をコーティング。​Dyuratekuto GOLD Similarly, coating the gold and alloy compound on the titanium nitride coating. 華やかなピンクゴールドを実現しました。​It was realized a gorgeous pink gold.
Hv1,200～1,400​ Hv1,200 ~ 1,400 
低温プラズマ技術​Low-temperature plasma technology
デュラテクトDLC​ Dyuratekuto DLC
DLCとはDiamond Like Carbonの略で、主に炭素と水素で構成される非品質のカーボン硬質膜をコーティング。​A substantially, mainly coating the non-quality carbon hard film composed of carbon and hydrogen of Diamond Like Carbon is the DLC. 精悍なダークグレー色でデュラテクトのバリエーションが拡大。​Expansion variations of Dyuratekuto in fearless dark gray color.
Hv1,000～1,400​ Hv1,000 ~ 1,400
デュラテクトDLC/MRK​ Dyuratekuto DLC / MRK
ガス硬化技術により、表面を硬質化したチタン素材にDLCをコーティング。​By gas curing technology, coating the DLC the surface to harden the titanium material.
Hv1,000～1,400​ Hv1,000 ~ 1,400 
ガス硬化技術​Gas curing technology
デュラテクトMRK​ Dyuratekuto MRK
チタン素材に、窒素と酸素を表面から浸透させて、素材の表面を硬化処理しました。​The titanium material, the nitrogen and oxygen to penetrate from the surface, has been curing process the surface of the material. キズがつきにくい、鏡面処理を実現しました。​Scratch-resistant, it has realized the mirror surface processing. 
・過酷な環境で使われるスポーツウオッチに採用。​And adopted in sports watches to be used in harsh environments.
Hv1,300～1,500​ Hv1,300 ~ 1,500

「DURA(デュラ)」はラテン語で"硬い"の意味。​The meaning of "DURA (Dura)" is a Latin word "hard". Hｖビッカース硬度：Vickers Hardness 材料の硬さを表す尺度。​Hv Vickers hardness: measure of the hardness of Vickers Hardness material.

*表面硬化技術​Surface hardening technique*

*IP技術（PTIC（プラチナチタンカーバイト）／TIC（チタンカーバイト）／GOLD（ゴール ド））​IP technology (PTIC (platinum titanium carbide) / TIC (titanium carbide) / GOLD (Gold))*










IP（イオンプレーティング）とは真空装置の中で金属をイオン化し部品の表面に被膜をコーティングする技術 です。​IP is the (ion plating) is a technology for coating a coating on the surface of the ionized part of the metal in a vacuum device. 乾式めっきとも呼ばれ、腕時計には主に装飾目的で使用されてきました。​Also referred to as dry plating, has been used mainly for decorative purposes is to watch. 
シチズンでは独自の技術により硬質被膜のコーティング処理に成功。​Citizen success in the coating process of the hard coating by unique technology. 部品の材質、形状、仕上げにとらわれず適用範囲が広く、カラーバリエーションも豊富です。​The material of the parts, shape, wide range of application agnostic to finish, color variation is also abundant. 
高級品、レディス、チタン商品と幅広いモデルに展開されています。​Luxury goods, ladies', has been deployed in titanium products and a wide range of models.

*低温プラズマ技術（DLC（ダイヤモンドライクカーボン））​Low-temperature plasma technology (DLC (diamond-like carbon))*









プラズマCVD技術とは真空装置の中で原料物質を含むガスをプラズマ化し、化学反応させたのちに部品の表面 に吸着コーティングする技術です。​Plasma The CVD technology into plasma gas that contains the raw material in a vacuum device, is a technology that adsorption coating to the surface of the component in the mixture was allowed to chemical reaction. 
DLC被膜はダイヤモンド構造を一部含んだC（炭素）とH（水素）からなるアモルファス構造をとり、結晶粒 界がないため高硬度で非常に滑らかな被膜です。​DLC coating takes an amorphous structure consisting of containing a part of the diamond structure C (carbon) and H (hydrogen), is very smooth coated with a high hardness because there is no crystal grain boundaries. 
独特なダークグレー色は高級品、ファッションモデルのバリエーションのひとつとして拡大展開中 です。​Unique dark gray color luxury goods, is expanding deployment as one of the variations of the fashion model.

*ガス硬化技術（MRK）​Gas curing technology (MRK)*









真空炉に窒素と酸素を封入し、熱処理を施すことでチタン素材の表面に20～30μmの硬化層を形成させるこ とにより時計の表面を硬質化する技術です。​Nitrogen and oxygen enclosed in a vacuum oven, is a technique for hardening the surface of the watch by forming a cured layer of 20 ~ 30 .mu.m on the surface of the titanium material by heat treatment. 
『軽い・錆びない・金属アレルギーを起こしにくい』というチタンの特性はそのままでケース表面の硬質化に成 功しました。​Characteristics of titanium called "less prone to light not rust-metal allergy" has succeeded in hardening of the surface of the case as it is. 
ハードな使用環境下で効果を発揮し、チタンのスポーツモデルに採用されています。​To demonstrate the effect under hard use environment, it has been adopted in titanium sports model.

*複合硬質化技術（DLC／MRK）​Composite hard technology (DLC / MRK)*










ガス硬化技術の「MRK」と低温プラズマ技術の「DLC」の特徴を兼ね備えた表面改質技術で、チタンのスポ ーツモデルに拡大展開されています。​Features a combines surface modification techniques of "DLC" in the low-temperature plasma technology with the "MRK" of gas curing technology, it has been expanded deployment to titanium sports model.

*傷つきにくさの比較​Comparison of the wounded difficulty*

当社耐傷試験機によるデュラテクト加工前と加工後の耐擦傷効果の比較​Comparison of scratch effect after processing and before Dyuratekuto processing by the Company scratch testing machine 








試験条件：SiO2粉末混合天然ゴムにて2kg荷重・30回スライド磨耗(当社規格)​Test conditions: SiO2 powder mixed with natural rubber 2kg load, 30 times slide wear (our standard) 
※注意：硬いものに擦りつけたり、強い衝撃を加えると傷や打痕がつく場合がありますのでご注意く ださい。​※ Note: or rubbed on the hard thing, please note that you may get is the addition of a strong shock scratches and dents. 
表面硬化処理ですので、素材そのものの硬化ではありません。​Since it is a surface hardening treatment, not a cure of the material itself.

*材質硬度について​About Material hardness*

代表的なケース（側）材質のビッカース硬度​A typical case (side) Material of Vickers hardness 








ビッカース硬度（Hv）​Vickers hardness (Hv) 
ビッカース硬度は、素材にダイヤモンド製の圧子を押し込むことで測定されます。​Vickers hardness is measured by pushing the diamond of the indenter to the material. 
この試験方法は、極めて硬い材料も測定でき、また試験用途も大変広く、他の硬さ試験の基準にも利用されてい ます。​This test method is also extremely hard material can be measured, also testing applications also very widely, has also been used on the standard of the other hardness test. 
表面被膜硬度については、低荷重で被膜硬度のみを測定したものです。​For surface coating hardness, it is a measure of the only film hardness at low load. 
日常使用による傷のつきにくさをそのまま表現する尺度ではありません。​It is not a measure to directly express the luck difficulty of scratch due to everyday use.

*耐摩耗性と美しい黒を実現するデュラテクトDLC​ Dyuratekuto DLC to achieve a beautiful black and wear resistance*









DLCとはDiamond Like Carbon（ダイヤモンドのようなカーボン）の略で、主に炭素と水素で構成される非晶質のカーボン硬質膜 のことです。​The DLC stands for Diamond Like Carbon (carbon, such as diamond), is mainly that of amorphous carbon hard film composed of carbon and hydrogen. 
素材によって応用範囲が限定されていた表面加工技術DLCを独自の技術で改善。​Improve the surface processing technology DLC the range of applications has been limited by the material in its own technology. 従来難しかった素材への加工が可能となり、シチズン独自の＜デュラテクトDLC＞が高い耐摩耗性を持つ硬く 美しい黒のケースやバンドを実現します。​It enables processing of the conventional was difficult material, providing a beautiful black case and band hard with the Citizen own <Dyuratekuto DLC> a high wear resistance.

More WUS discussion on technology.








Originally Posted by *RPF*  
A short discussion on the above, leaving out the specifics.

1. *Hard materials:* This is the most straightforward solution employed by Rado, predominantly ceramics and hardmetal. Hardmetal offerings from Chinese case suppliers are also on the rise.

Material strength and fracture toughness is in general, inversely proportional to hardness. Harder materials are more difficult to work with, due in part to the brittle nature.

Unlike SS or other metals shaped by CNC out of case blanks, ceramic/hardmetal cass are sintered from powder fed at high pressure into precision moulds. It is difficult to control tolerances due to machining difficulties post-forming. This affects the water resistance and is one reason (I believe) we have not seen a hardmetal dive watch. Screw backs are also troublesome for ceramics due to torque load.

Note: Sintering is just a fancy way of saying baking.

Overall, hardmetal is comparable in hardness to ceramics but has greater mechanical and fracture toughness. However, it is also much heavier, with a density approaching that of gold (SG 14-17, depending on binder used).

The main disadvantages of these materials are cost, brittleness, finishing difficulties and the high-tech, non-metal look on what is essentially, jewelry.

Note: Brightz is mentioned because this alloy retains the weight and strength attributes of Ti while improving aesthetics and hardness.

2. *Hard coatings:* Most people are familiar with this, associating PVD with black metal watches.

We can add ion plating, ceramic coatings (rare) and DLC to the mix. Performance varies depending on substrate and thickness but the mechanical strength of the base material (SS, Ti etc) is not compromised. Coatings also improve corrosion resistance, although that's almost never a selling point on watches. (That is one reason why I never understood the use of 904 in watches.)

Application is similar to spray painting in a specialized chamber.

The main disadvantages are limited finishing options and poor ding (unless in tandem with other technologies) and scratch (DLC is an exception) resistance. Scratches that expose bare metal ruin the aesthetics more than on a plain metal watch.

3. *Hardened matrix:* Standard machining workflow can be employed on traditional materials before the metal is hardened via heat or surface treatment. The finished product has the benefit of precise tolerances, superior wear characteristics and similar aesthetics to the original alloy.

Metals can be hardened two ways, throughout the matrix or just the surface, producing a functionally graded material.

Damasko heat treats their ice-hardened steel to a uniform >60 HrV, similar in hardness to other martensitic steels such as S30V used on premium knives. Quite impressive given the complexity of a watch case compared to a blade.

Better scratch resistance can be achieved through surface treatment, usually by diffusing carbon and nitrogen into the matrix. The hardness decreases with the penetration of the atoms, producing a material that's hard on the outside and tough on the inside.

Sinn's Tegiment and various versions of Citizen's Duratect employ this method. I've been told IWC also treats several of their Ti models in similar fashion but I've not explored this further.

One argument against surface treatment is the eggshell effect. The surface may resist scratches, but risks deformation due to the underlying soft metal. This is a valid concern but it should be highlighted an untreated watch will deform to a greater degree.

Surface treated metals usually appear dull and cannot be refinished by hand.

***

Personally, I consider combinations of 2&3 to be the best compromise in terms of machining, scratch and ding resistance. Currently, Casio, Citizen, Seiko and a couple of Swiss brands have introduced models which are surface hardened, IP coated and DLC-ed. These are probably the best cases around, even though the ceramic/lanthanum/diamond cases of Rado are harder. For one, they have better tolerances, are lighter and mechanically stronger.


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## balllistic

My 17ish year old Promaster Tough purchased from Higuchi-Inc has been a daily wearer for a majority of those years and has taken many a hit with only a couple of small nicks/scuffs on the bezel. It's amazingly durable and scratch resistant to showing any wear. It has more than lived up to its name.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Tseg

My Super Titanium AT4010 is now a bit over a month old, worn just about every day. I'm very bad at scratching bracelets because I'm always sliding them on hard desktops (despite my best efforts not to). The brushed metal has held up amazingly... but will mention the polished bits on my bracelet are showing significant scratching, not unlike I experience on my steel bracelets with polished bits... fyi.


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## CitizenPromaster

The Dutch Citizen website is mentioning there is a new Super Titanium Collection, they even made a dedicated website. Super Titanium™ | Super Titanium - Titan Uhren von Citizen

Two models jump out to me, for their simplicity: the 41mm AW2020-82H and it's 33.5mm sister (or 'vintage' male size) FE7020-85H, both using the same caliber (which means the bigger watch is mostly empty). They also come with blue dials.

To my surprise, the website mentions these two have Eco-Drive Ring Solar, if that's true, Citizen has sneakily reintroduced/continued the ring solar technology (no solar cells under the dial but a circular cell around the dial's edge). I can't really spot it in the pictures, but it's also hard to see on the Original Ring Solar (AW1365-19P): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Citizen_"Eco-Drive_METAL"_solar_ring.jpg


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## umarrajs

This landed recently:

Super Titanium​(Duratect DLC+ MRK)

​














Had purchased this in SS last year but sold it as the color combination didn't work for me.

​









​


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## tletourneau

Hello CitizenPromaster, great thread! I've looked and probably missed it but I am trying to figure out which Super Titanium the Citizen Promaster Skyhawk A-T JY8068-56E uses. Any ideas or pointers on how I can figure it out?

https://us.citizenwatch.com/us/en/mens-promaster-skyhawk-a-t/JY8068-56E.html

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk


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## notional

Absolutely great stuff CitizenPromaster. I've been looking all over for information on Ti and their uses in watches, especially Citizen watches. Your information presented was most comprehensive. Again, thank you for your efforts. I did have only one thing to add to this thread, and that is the type of Ti used by Citizen, because I just couldn't find that information anywhere. I've seen lots of speculation, but nothing real or concrete. So I reached out to Citizen. They were very helpful and informative. I personally own an early 90's model Ti (one of their early models with no removable back), as well as the Autozilla and their new 1000m ProMaster BN7020 and was very curious as to what they used. I specifically was asking Citizen about the differences between the Autozilla and the BN7020's Ti. They stated that the Ti is the same, it's just a difference in the plating from one model to the next. Directly from Citizen - They use Grade 1 Ti. (The result of test piece: purity = 99.802% Impurities: Fe 0.09, Si < 0.004, C 0.01, N 0.008, H 0.006, O 0.08 ASTM B265-95). They also stated, that in comparison to stainless steel, titanium with titanium carbide ion plating featured on our titanium product is 5 times harder and more scratch resistant than stainless steel. This is not to say that it won't scratch, but in comparison to untreated stainless steel it is more scratch resistant. This would apply to most titanium models currently on our website. There are a few specialized models that feature enhanced plating (DLC or diamond like carbide) which is very scratch resistant, but that is found on very expensive models. Most of which you have already covered quite extensively. But, my addition to this discussion is simply that Citizen uses Grade 1 Ti for their two 1000m divers. Good stuff to know (and quite fascinating)!


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## RNHC

So Citizen and Seiko uses chemical/heat treatment on softer grade (probably cheap grade 2) titanium to harden the surface (some micrometer thickness) to several times the hardness of stainless steel (SS). 

It may be more difficult to scratch treated titanium than SS but it does scratch and refinishing it may mean removing the hardened layer and exposing the soft titanium underneath which will scratch lot easier than SS.

Is that about right? I'd rather get grade 5 titanium. Any Citizen or Seiko watch use grade 5 titanium?


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## therion

@CitizenPromaster : Thank you for your effort in this thread, one of the most thorough and informative threads I have ever read.

I'm in the market for another Citizen pilot and my pick was the JDM By0080-57e, I like the looks and I was under the impression that it was the only version made of MRK Duratec titanium. Until I discovered the Citizen global website and it says that the non JDM, the By0120-54e is also made of MRK Duratec

PRODUCT-SKY | PROMASTER-Official Site [CITIZEN]

None of the local websites mention the MRK though , they only say Super titanium. Would you say it's possible that this watch is actually made of MRK Duratec titanium? It's less expensive and I kinda like the color combination. But the JDM has its appeal too


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## Ziptie

RNHC said:


> So Citizen and Seiko uses chemical/heat treatment on softer grade (probably cheap grade 2) titanium to harden the surface (some micrometer thickness) to several times the hardness of stainless steel (SS).
> 
> It may be more difficult to scratch treated titanium than SS but it does scratch and refinishing it may mean removing the hardened layer and exposing the soft titanium underneath which will scratch lot easier than SS.
> 
> Is that about right? I'd rather get grade 5 titanium. Any Citizen or Seiko watch use grade 5 titanium?


I don't think that's the implication at all, and I'm not sure why you'd assume that. it was stated earlier in the thread that given 3 decades of work with titanium, Citizen probably has proprietary alloys that aren't simple "grade 2" or whatever. There's a lot more going on than that. See, also, the conversation about how the half-dozen different treatments affect the base metal in different ways to different depths. The "it's just a coating that will scratch off" seems a weirdly persistent myth that I've never seen any evidence to support, with Citizen models at least.


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## Ziptie

RNHC said:


> So Citizen and Seiko uses chemical/heat treatment on softer grade (probably cheap grade 2) titanium to harden the surface (some micrometer thickness) to several times the hardness of stainless steel (SS).
> 
> It may be more difficult to scratch treated titanium than SS but it does scratch and refinishing it may mean removing the hardened layer and exposing the soft titanium underneath which will scratch lot easier than SS.
> 
> Is that about right? I'd rather get grade 5 titanium. Any Citizen or Seiko watch use grade 5 titanium?


I don't think that's the implication at all, and I'm not sure why you'd assume that. it was stated earlier in the thread that given 3 decades of work with titanium, Citizen probably has proprietary alloys that aren't simple "grade 2" or whatever. There's a lot more going on than that. See, also, the conversation about how the half-dozen different treatments affect the base metal in different ways to different depths. The "it's just a coating that will scratch off" seems a weirdly persistent myth that I've never seen any evidence to support, with Citizen models at least.


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## Jo Hande

I plan to give my (adult) daughter this nice Citizen EcoDrive Titanium Sapphire ...
Some advice? Are there disadvantages?

Thx Jo
(picture from the internet)


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## Indo-Padawan

Update News 6 February 2019 (I am using google translate)

Citizen JP announces the Duratect MRK Gold, which is new development of new color of Elegant Gold

https://citizen.jp/news/2019/20190206_2.html


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## lewie

This arrived last week - Raymond
Ray by biglewie, on Flickr


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## Sgt_gatr

I can't wait to get a titanium promaster.


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## Science451

Super Titanium, DLC'ed:









Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk


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## HorologicOptic

Citizen has just announced AQ4030-51L - a JDM model "The Citizen" featuring Duratect α treatment. As far as I am aware, this will be the first release of Citizen's famed Chronomaster to feature this amazing surface treatment. I have previously been frustrated to find a lack of Duratect α in the Chronomaster line. I think it is fittting for Citizen's highest end line (second to 0100, of course) to receive their highest end titanium surface treatment.

370,000¥ or roughly $3500 slated for an August release. 

citizen(dot)jp/news/2019/20190620_4.html (apparently my post count is too low to include proper links, apologies)

Personally I am glad that Citizen is not eschewing their Chronomaster line in favor of Caliber 0100 releases.


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## HorologicOptic

Additionally, it looks like the Citizen luxury mark, Campanola, will be receiving a new limited edition Grand Complication release featuring a stainless steel treated with Duratect α - AH4080-01L

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but this is the first time I've noticed Campanola receiving this surface treatment up to this point. I'm personally very excited as this could signal the further proliferation of Duratect α, though I'm not holding my breath for a non-JDM release anytime in the near future.

citizen(dot)jp/news/2019/20190620_3.html

430,000¥ (~$4000) for this one. I am under the impression that Campanola is severely underappreciated outside of Japan. To me they represent a great value, though western enthusiasts are likely unable to reconcile the fact that most of them are quartz.


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## drunken-gmt-master

TrawlingOne said:


> Citizen has just announced AQ4030-51L - a JDM model "The Citizen" featuring Duratect α treatment. As far as I am aware, this will be the first release of Citizen's famed Chronomaster to feature this amazing surface treatment. I have previously been frustrated to find a lack of Duratect α in the Chronomaster line. I think it is fittting for Citizen's highest end line (second to 0100, of course) to receive their highest end titanium surface treatment.
> 
> 370,000¥ or roughly $3500 slated for an August release.
> 
> citizen(dot)jp/news/2019/20190620_4.html (apparently my post count is too low to include proper links, apologies)
> 
> Personally I am glad that Citizen is not eschewing their Chronomaster line in favor of Caliber 0100 releases.


I believe you're mistaken. Previous titanium Chronomasters, e.g., the AQ4020-03E (https://citizen.jp/product/the-citizen/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=AQ4020-03E ) & AQ4030-51E (https://citizen.jp/product/the-citizen/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=AQ4030-51E), have Duratect surface treatment (translated as "Duratekuto" by Google Translate/Chrome) on Super Titanium.

Edit: It appears the stainless steel models like the AQ1010-54A (https://citizen.jp/product/the-citizen/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=AQ1010-54A) also have the Duratekuto surface treatment.


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## TuckandRoll

TrawlingOne said:


> Citizen has just announced AQ4030-51L - a JDM model "The Citizen" featuring Duratect α treatment. As far as I am aware, this will be the first release of Citizen's famed Chronomaster to feature this amazing surface treatment. I have previously been frustrated to find a lack of Duratect α in the Chronomaster line. I think it is fittting for Citizen's highest end line (second to 0100, of course) to receive their highest end titanium surface treatment.
> 
> 370,000¥ or roughly $3500 slated for an August release.
> 
> citizen(dot)jp/news/2019/20190620_4.html (apparently my post count is too low to include proper links, apologies)
> 
> Personally I am glad that Citizen is not eschewing their Chronomaster line in favor of Caliber 0100 releases.


Quite a few Chronomaster's have Duratect alpha treatment, including the other two AQ4030 models.

The information is on Citizen Japan site.


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## TuckandRoll

stolen-gmt-master said:


> I believe you're incorrect. Previous titanium Chronomasters, e.g., the AQ4020-03E (https://citizen.jp/product/the-citizen/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=AQ4020-03E ) & AQ4030-51E (https://citizen.jp/product/the-citizen/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=AQ4030-51E), have Duratect surface treatment (translated as "Duratekuto" by Google Translate/Chrome) on Super Titanium.


You beat me to it...sorry, was replying.


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## HorologicOptic

I do like a fast response 

Of course we're all aware of previous uses of Duratect PTIC, but none of the models either of you have mentioned are in the 2000Hv range of Duratect α. Please refer to early posts in this thread to clarify the difference between the treatments. PTIC is around the 1000Hv mark, and when I have spoken to Citizen Japan they have mentioned a 1000-1200Hv nominal range for Duratect PTIC.

If either of you have a Citizen official link to previous "The Citizen" models that include Duratect α (not PTIC or other lower hardness treatments), please let me know, as these things are not always well documented in English


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## HorologicOptic

TuckandRoll - it seems you were better informed. AQ4030-51E and -51A are indeed listed as having Duratect α on the Citizen jp site. Are you aware if the "(light silver color)" note designates anything special, or is this just a clarification to differentiate it from darker Duratect treatments?


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## HorologicOptic

stolen-gmt - I see where it lists them as Duratect α on the site, I had seen previous documentation that listed these models as Duratect PTIC.


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## TuckandRoll

TrawlingOne said:


> TuckandRoll - it seems you were better informed. AQ4030-51E and -51A are indeed listed as having Duratect α on the Citizen jp site. Are you aware if the "(light silver color)" note designates anything special, or is this just a clarification to differentiate it from darker Duratect treatments?


I'm not sure as to the "light silver colour" note designation meaning anything special. I interpret it as simply the description of the watch appearance.


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## drunken-gmt-master

TrawlingOne said:


> stolen-gmt - I see where it lists them as Duratect α on the site, I had seen previous documentation that listed these models as Duratect PTIC.


No problem, I misread your post & didn't see the reference to Duratect alpha, which as you pointed out, is not used on the AQ4020 & stainless steel models. I wasn't sure that "Duratekuto Platinum" is the same as Duratect PTIC, but that would make sense.


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## WichitaViajero

My Titanium Skyhawk, I have had it for about 16 years, had to replace the cell about 2 years ago.


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## umarrajs

Still liking this Promaster, especially the toolish vibe due to slide rule...............It has Duratect DLC+ MRK


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## notional

Those cufflinks! Awesome. Simply awesome. Goes great with that watch! Love 'em!


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## Covenant

Great thread, I'm considerably more informed about Citizen's titanium grades now.

Although it's really not doing my wallet any favours knowing that the three AQ4030 Chronomaster models have Duratect Alpha treatment...


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## HorologicOptic

Covenant said:


> Great thread, I'm considerably more informed about Citizen's titanium grades now.
> 
> Although it's really not doing my wallet any favours knowing that the three AQ4030 Chronomaster models have Duratect Alpha treatment...


I am on the exact same page. I have been able to hold back from the Chronomasters with various justifications, but I don't know how long I'll be able to hold out with this knowledge that they have Duratect Alpha. I really hope they don't decide to produce a new generation with the Calibre 0100 anytime soon, that would make them completely irresistible.

Not to get too off course, but HAQ is easy to romanticize for me, as it seems each year the time broadcast stations are brought into question on the budget. Maybe Satellite Wave and other tech will work for now, but we are looking to the next generation of GPS already, and then what of the receiver standards? Hopefully they have backwards compatibility in mind. Easy to love a more truly perpetual and independent near perfect timekeeping piece, I suppose.


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## Covenant

TrawlingOne said:


> I am on the exact same page. I have been able to hold back from the Chronomasters with various justifications, but I don't know how long I'll be able to hold out with this knowledge that they have Duratect Alpha. I really hope they don't decide to produce a new generation with the Calibre 0100 anytime soon, that would make them completely irresistible.
> 
> Not to get too off course, but HAQ is easy to romanticize for me, as it seems each year the time broadcast stations are brought into question on the budget. Maybe Satellite Wave and other tech will work for now, but we are looking to the next generation of GPS already, and then what of the receiver standards? Hopefully they have backwards compatibility in mind. Easy to love a more truly perpetual and independent near perfect timekeeping piece, I suppose.


Living in Australia GPS-synced watches aren't really a thing for me to begin with, but I find autonomous timepieces far more desirable.

Calibre 0100 will likely remain out of my reach for the forseeable future, if prices remain around the $7K USD territory. But an AQ4020 or AQ4030 is achievable, and I can deal with having the second best watch in the world 

My dilemma at the moment is between the aesthetics of the AQ4020 (longer, more elegantly shaped handset) and the technical superiority of the AQ4030 (duratect alpha & lume).


----------



## navara

Just pick this up for a great price on ebay for $100 aud. Very happy with it.


----------



## HorologicOptic

Covenant said:


> Living in Australia GPS-synced watches aren't really a thing for me to begin with, but I find autonomous timepieces far more desirable.
> 
> Calibre 0100 will likely remain out of my reach for the forseeable future, if prices remain around the $7K USD territory. But an AQ4020 or AQ4030 is achievable, and I can deal with having the second best watch in the world ?
> 
> My dilemma at the moment is between the aesthetics of the AQ4020 (longer, more elegantly shaped handset) and the technical superiority of the AQ4030 (duratect alpha & lume).


Your point about the more far-flung regions of the globe not having good access to time sync technologies is something that cannot be overstated. The best non-autonomous watch in the world is still only as good as its quartz oscillator in these situations.

Price point is my consideration too concerning the 0100 - we will have to see if Citizen starts releasing non-limited runs featuring the movement. But you're right, second best is certainly nothing to call into question.

I have the exact same dillema between the more elegant AQ4020 and the technically superior AQ4030. I was wondering if there was someone else pondering the issue out there.


----------



## Covenant

TrawlingOne said:


> I have the exact same dillema between the more elegant AQ4020 and the technically superior AQ4030. I was wondering if there was someone else pondering the issue out there.


I've spent a lot of time comparing the AQ4030 Vs the 4020, and I've come to the conclusion that the older model's design is completely superior, for me anyway. There are a lot of minor irritants with the 4030 that would, over time, seriously detract from my joy of ownership.

I've taken a photo from jandrese's review to showcase this:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f905/citizen-chronomaster-aq4030-51a-giant-killer-maybe-goat-4818199.html









My issues with this design are as follows:
1. The luminous pips along the rehaut appear misaligned compared to the minute markers. Now this may just be an optical illusion resulting from the curvature of the rehaut, and doubless it's only really apparent close-up, but it would still bug me.
2. The ends of the hour and minute hand don't taper to a fine point, but rather terminate in a blunt triangular point. This is a sporty-looking handset that looks out of place in this design, IMO.
3. The shape of the luminous tracks on the handset don't match the shape of the hands, which is a bit of visual dis-symmetry that again would bug me whenever I noticed it.
4. The gap between the second hand and the markers is too big. For that matter, the hour and minute hand are a bit too short to properly reach their respective markers too.
5. The paper used for this dial is a very stark white, with a fine snow-like texture that makes the watch appear cold overall.

Compare that to the older AQ4020 (picture from the Deployant review):
https://deployant.com/review-enter-...n-aq-4020-54y-best-quartz-watch-in-the-world/









The paper texture is more apparent, and the colour scheme is warmer and slightly more vintage. The hour and minute hands taper elegantly, the second hand reaches its markers, and IMO even the indexes are finished to a finer degree. It is the superior design to my eyes, which wins over an extra ~1,000Hv on an already-hardened watch.

Now, if you truly want or need Duratect A, you likely live a pretty active lifestyle and want a sportier design to begin with. I reckon a much better fit for a "tough" Chronomaster is the AQ1040-53a (picture from https://www.tiktakmir.com/aq1040-53a):









Same handset as the AQ4030, but on this dial I really don't mind them. You get a lovely cream-coloured guiloche dial similar to the engine-turned appearance of a Royal Oak, along with fully lumed indexes, a sporty 40mm case diameter, screw down crown, and Duratect A hardening. The video in the above link is in Russian, but shows this model side by side Vs the AQ4020 and IMO they're both truly lovely in their own ways.


----------



## HorologicOptic

Covenant said:


> I've spent a lot of time comparing the AQ4030 Vs the 4020, and I've come to the conclusion that the older model's design is completely superior, for me anyway. There are a lot of minor irritants with the 4030 that would, over time, seriously detract from my joy of ownership.


Outstanding comparison. I find it amusing at how many of the points you listed and pondered here are the same as what I was mulling over. The only one that I had not yet noticed was the length of the hands - this is something many people are critical about when it comes to Citizen watches, and I do wonder why they chose that path on such a high-end piece.

I will likely comment further on your write-up after bouncing it around my head a bit, especially the AQ1040-53a - is this watch Eco-Drive?


----------



## Covenant

TrawlingOne said:


> I will likely comment further on your write-up after bouncing it around my head a bit, especially the AQ1040-53a - is this watch Eco-Drive?


It is. Full specs below:









The AQ1040-53a (and it's black-dialled version the 53e) are the only Eco-Drive The Citizen models aside from the AQ4030 series that feature Duratect Alpha.


----------



## HorologicOptic

Covenant said:


> It is. Full specs below:
> 
> The AQ1040-53a (and it's black-dialled version the 53e) are the only Eco-Drive The Citizen models aside from the AQ4030 series that feature Duratect Alpha.


Thanks for the information. I have been looking it over, but I am still partial to the AQ4020 when I think about it. Upon closer inspection, PTIC seems to have an edge when it comes to polish and shine vs the α. I suppose it does say on the tin, but since citizen is not forthcoming with detailed and dynamic photos of their best watches, it's not easy to glean this.


----------



## Chasy

Covenant said:


> My issues with this design are as follows:
> 1. The luminous pips along the rehaut appear misaligned compared to the minute markers. Now this may just be an optical illusion resulting from the curvature of the rehaut, and doubless it's only really apparent close-up, but it would still bug me.
> 2. The ends of the hour and minute hand don't taper to a fine point, but rather terminate in a blunt triangular point. This is a sporty-looking handset that looks out of place in this design, IMO.
> 3. The shape of the luminous tracks on the handset don't match the shape of the hands, which is a bit of visual dis-symmetry that again would bug me whenever I noticed it.
> 4. The gap between the second hand and the markers is too big. For that matter, the hour and minute hand are a bit too short to properly reach their respective markers too.
> 5. The paper used for this dial is a very stark white, with a fine snow-like texture that makes the watch appear cold overall.


My 2c as an AQ4030 owner

1. The luminous pips along the rehaut appear misaligned compared to the minute markers. Now this may just be an optical illusion resulting from the curvature of the rehaut, and doubless it's only really apparent close-up, but it would still bug me.

They indeed seem to be off at times, but by such a small margin that the longer one looks, the less sure one is whether they are imperfect or perfect.

2. The ends of the hour and minute hand don't taper to a fine point, but rather terminate in a blunt triangular point. This is a sporty-looking handset that looks out of place in this design, IMO.

The tips of hands on AQ4030 are the highlight, beautiful looking and not blunt. My favorite design.

3. The shape of the luminous tracks on the handset don't match the shape of the hands, which is a bit of visual dis-symmetry that again would bug me whenever I noticed it.

Yes. Lume could be applied better. Still, a great lume.
I will not buy a watch that I cannot see in complete darkness at 4am.

4. The gap between the second hand and the markers is too big. For that matter, the hour and minute hand are a bit too short to properly reach their respective markers too.

Could be, but I did not notice this myself until I read about it. A longer seconds hand? Why not, it would look nice. But this is not something that will give me pause when buying AQ4030.

5. The paper used for this dial is a very stark white, with a fine snow-like texture that makes the watch appear cold overall.

Mine is black. I was rather skeptical about this paper idea before I saw the watch. Now I get the point of the designer. Washi is another highlight. I had AQ1040 before, also black, and given choice, would prefer Washi any day of the week.


----------



## Covenant

TrawlingOne said:


> Thanks for the information. I have been looking it over, but I am still partial to the AQ4020 when I think about it. Upon closer inspection, PTIC seems to have an edge when it comes to polish and shine vs the α. I suppose it does say on the tin, but since citizen is not forthcoming with detailed and dynamic photos of their best watches, it's not easy to glean this.


I'm partial to the AQ4020 between the two as well. And agreed, there is a subtle but noticeable increase in shine and whiteness with the PTIC titanium. It's closer to steel in appearance than the Duratect A.



Chasy said:


> [
> 
> My 2c as an AQ4030 owner
> 
> 1. They indeed seem to be off at times, but by such a small margin that the longer one looks, the less sure one is whether they are imperfect or perfect.
> 
> 2. The tips of hands on AQ4030 are the highlight, beautiful looking and not blunt. My favorite design.
> 
> 3. Yes. Lume could be applied better. Still, a great lume.
> I will not buy a watch that I cannot see in complete darkness at 4am.
> 
> 4. Could be, but I did not notice this myself until I read about it. A longer seconds hand? Why not, it would look nice. But this is not something that will give me pause when buying AQ4030.
> 
> 5.Mine is black. I was rather skeptical about this paper idea before I saw the watch. Now I get the point of the designer. Washi is another highlight. I had AQ1040 before, also black, and given choice, would prefer Washi any day of the week.


Thank you for your input and perspective. Obviously a lot of this is really subjective, designs I might deplore someone else might love. To me points one, three and four are flaws that, after consideration, rule out the AQ4030 for me.

Point 2 is really just a preference thing, and I totally get that someone could prefer this style of tip to the Grand Seiko-esque handset on the AQ4020.

Point 5 is interesting. I agree that the black dial is a more cohesive look for this watch overall. I even think I get why the designers opted for a starker white paper dial for this model than the 4020; the Duratect A treatment. With a slightly duller, greyer metal on the case and bracelet, you need a crisper dial colour for contrast. But my preference remains with the brighter PTIC titanium and more neutral paper dial colour scheme on the AQ4020.


----------



## HorologicOptic

Chasy said:


> Lume could be applied better. Still, a great lume.
> I will not buy a watch that I cannot see in complete darkness at 4am.


I can see where you're coming from in regards to the lume. How bright and long lasting is it compared to other Citizens? Seiko/GS? I have always found Citizen to come up short compared to Sekio in the lume department.



Chasy said:


> I had AQ1040 before, also black, and given choice, would prefer Washi any day of the week.


Did you have the same AQ1040 that Covenant mentioned earlier? How was the guilloche dial?

Additionally, how did the Duratect α hold up? Was the polished bezel as tough to scratch as the rest of the case?


----------



## Chasy

TrawlingOne said:


> 1. How bright and long lasting is it compared to other Citizens? Seiko/GS? I have always found Citizen to come up short compared to Sekio in the lume department.
> 
> 2. Did you have the same AQ1040 that Covenant mentioned earlier? How was the guilloche dial?
> 
> 3. Additionally, how did the Duratect α hold up? Was the polished bezel as tough to scratch as the rest of the case?


1. Lume is green glow strontium aluminate. The superluminova kind, not the old type that fades fast. 
AQ4030 glow lasts all night and then some. It is good.

2. AQ1040 dial makes so much glare, that at times it makes hard to read the dial. AQ4030 does not have this issue.

3. Duratect is the same on watch and bracelet. Stronger than regular TiC watches. But not invincible. I can already see a tiny scratch on bezel after 2 months. 
Bracelet has 0 marks, amazing given that my other watches would be already scratched by the desk.

In real life it is about as strong as DLC.


----------



## TheDude

This is mine










Very tough metal

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carlosimery

Oh wow!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pete26

Covenant said:


> Living in Australia GPS-synced watches aren't really a thing for me to begin with, but I find autonomous timepieces far more desirable.
> 
> Calibre 0100 will likely remain out of my reach for the forseeable future, if prices remain around the $7K USD territory. But an AQ4020 or AQ4030 is achievable, and I can deal with having the second best watch in the world
> 
> My dilemma at the moment is between the aesthetics of the AQ4020 (longer, more elegantly shaped handset) and the technical superiority of the AQ4030 (duratect alpha & lume).


I don't agree, I find my GPS synced Navihawk is great and where I could sometimes get a signal with radio contol in Brisbane. I find this syncs more reliably.


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## Covenant

Pete26 said:


> I don't agree, I find my GPS synced Navihawk is great and where I could sometimes get a signal with radio contol in Brisbane. I find this syncs more reliably.


That's cool, I respect your right to disagree 

Non-autonomous timekeepers have never interested me, even if you could theoretically attain higher accuracy with intermittent syncs. That's just personal preference though, glad to hear that in some locations in Brisbane you can get a GPS sync!


----------



## Pete26

Covenant said:


> That's cool, I respect your right to disagree
> 
> Non-autonomous timekeepers have never interested me, even if you could theoretically attain higher accuracy with intermittent syncs. That's just personal preference though, glad to hear that in some locations in Brisbane you can get a GPS sync!


I respect your respect of my right to disagree :-!

Yes, but weird or not, I have only ever managed it from my house in certain locations.


----------



## ma678

I hit my Attesa CB1070-56A on a chair's metal frame on the second day I got it. It got a ding on its bracelet and a scratch on the bezel. Shame on me not taking care of it.









Sent from my ONEPLUS 6T using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1

Just in...
Super Ti kermit diver


----------



## GaryK30

From ABTW.

Japanese powerhouse Citizen has joined forces with Tokyo-based lunar exploration company ispace. As the new corporate partner of Hakuto-R, the world's first commercial lunar exploration program, the famous watchmaker will provide its Super Titanium™ to the upcoming missions aiming to make space travel far more common than it is today.

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/citize...akuto-r-commercial-lunar-exploration-program/


----------



## Davidka

3-1-1 said:


> Just in...
> Super Ti kermit diver
> 
> View attachment 14448089


Why can't their Eco-drives look as good?!


----------



## mi6_

Davidka said:


> Why can't their Eco-drives look as good?!


Huh? They make almost the exact same model in Eco-Drive (minus the Kermit scheme)?

Citizen BN0200-56E:








As well as many other good looking Eco-Drive dive watches. Not sure why these don't look good? Surely one of them is acceptable to your eyes?

Citizen BN0151-09L








Citizen BN0198-56H








And that's just a few examples....


----------



## Davidka

mi6_ said:


> Huh? They make almost the exact same model in Eco-Drive (minus the Kermit scheme)?
> 
> Citizen BN0200-56E:
> View attachment 14449185


My main complaint is the lack of colors. Black and blue is almost all we get. Your first example is perfect: the autos get colored bezels and the same design with solar movement is black. Why?


----------



## LostArk

Jo Hande said:


> I plan to give my (adult) daughter this nice Citizen EcoDrive Titanium Sapphire ...
> Some advice? Are there disadvantages?
> 
> Thx Jo
> (picture from the internet)
> View attachment 13854215


Wow this is an attractive watch. Would love to get my hands on a 40mm version of this.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Double post


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Hello all, I have returned from the dead. My interests tend to be intense but fleeting.
Tinypic shutting down has wreaked havoc on this thread, but I see people still find it useful.
Citizen is still going strong on many levels, but I did notice something unfortunate. The successor to my AS4050-51E is called the CB5850-80E. They updated the caliber from E670 to E660, and it has gained a power reserve indicator and 4 band RC (and added cities on the dial), I think it also became 50 EUR cheaper. However, on the website it is shown to have a blank caseback, and I was somewhat shocked, though the pictures from a store do show engravings on the caseback. Well at least that's better than nothing, but it's a shame they ditched the machined/cast/stamped/whatever it was fancy caseback.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

And I even missed this party lol


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Hello all, I have returned from the dead. My interests tend to be intense but fleeting.
> Tinypic shutting down has wreaked havoc on this thread, but I see people still find it useful.
> Citizen is still going strong on many levels, but I did notice something unfortunate. The successor to my AS4050-51E is called the CB5850-80E. They updated the caliber from E670 to E660, and it has gained a power reserve indicator and 4 band RC (and added cities on the dial), I think it also became 50 EUR cheaper. However, on the website it is shown to have a blank caseback, and I was somewhat shocked, though the pictures from a store do show engravings on the caseback. Well at least that's better than nothing, but it's a shame they ditched the machined/cast/stamped/whatever it was fancy caseback.


Glad to see you're active again.

Regarding the caseback changes, this is simply more of the same. I think it's shameful that the major Japanese brands have been consistently moving away from beautiful engraved casebacks on their mid to high tier watches, and are now even ending their simpler stamped casebacks on divers. These laser etchings are cheap looking and even wear away with time. Very poor showing, but corner-cutting by the bean counters is unsurprising at this point as Citizen have been shifting to laser engraving since at least the early 2000s if memory serves.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Glad to see you're active again.
> 
> Regarding the caseback changes, this is simply more of the same. I think it's shameful that the major Japanese brands have been consistently moving away from beautiful engraved casebacks on their mid to high tier watches, and are now even ending their simpler stamped casebacks on divers. These laser etchings are cheap looking and even wear away with time. Very poor showing, but corner-cutting by the bean counters is unsurprising at this point as Citizen have been shifting to laser engraving since at least the early 2000s if memory serves.


Thanks for the welcome.

Disappointed as we may be, they probably did their homework and concluded 90% of the watch buyers don't care about the caseback. The US and UK market already had cheaper engraved casebacks on similar models, but now the EU market gets the same treatment. The Japanese website doesn't show the caseback on some new Promaster models, but perhaps it's just the new policy, even in the domestic market.
They did go all out for the Cal. 0100 with the see-through sapphire caseback, but I can't spend 7k on a watch! The titanium ones are Duratect alpha though ^_^


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> OK one more example, since I enjoy the detective work.
> 
> The most expensive Promaster Sky MSRP-wise in EU is the JY8020-52E, the brother of the JDM PMV65-2271. Both are caliber U680, the 4-band RC version of the ana-digi we know from the Skyhawk A-T. Official price for the JY8020-52E is 795 EUR (incl 21% tax), so you'd hope for once you'd get the full package. Especially when you see the official JDM price for the PMV65-2271 is 90,000 yen = 787 EUR + 8% tax = 97,200 yen = 850 EUR.
> Looking at the front, they are exactly the same, both even say MADE IN JAPAN. Caliber and case number are not on the dial, so no hints there. No noticeable color difference in the metal either. But again, Citizen Japan lists the PMV as having MRK, the clasp has a micro-adjust and on the caseback the JDM watch says Duratect, while the EU watch says SAPPHIRE. There the case number is mentioned and of course they differ.
> 
> EU S075271
> JDM T016677


OK, this story will be unbelievable. So I am browsing a Dutch website where people offer used goods, and I see a woman advertising the JY8020-52E brand new in box for 350 EUR. Ok, you have my attention, since it costs 795 EUR here (or at least 600 EUR at some online sellers). So I look at the pictures and I notice it has the micro-adjust clasp. WHAT? And there's a picture of the caseback, it says Duratect. WHAT?! I check the case number, it says T016677. So I immediately e-mail her "Has this watch been bought in Japan?". It turns out it was gifted to her husband by a Japanese friend. Some friend!! So I jump in my car and I buy it within the hour. I now have a brand new JDM Duratect MRK watch for less than half the price!

The color difference between the 'Super Titanium' on my very similar AS4050-51E and the Duratect MRK on this PMV65-2271 is very subtle. The difference is that light reflects whitish on the non-MRK titanium, and it reflects yellowish/bronzish on the MRK titanium. The picture doesn't really show it, though it's equally subtle with the naked eye.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> OK, this story will be unbelievable. So I am browsing a Dutch website where people offer used goods, and I see a woman advertising the JY8020-52E brand new in box for 350 EUR. Ok, you have my attention, since it costs 795 EUR here (or at least 600 EUR at some online sellers). So I look at the pictures and I notice it has the micro-adjust clasp. WHAT? And there's a picture of the caseback, it says Duratect. WHAT?! I check the case number, it says T016677. So I immediately e-mail her "Has this watch been bought in Japan?". It turns out it was gifted to her husband by a Japanese friend. Some friend!! So I jump in my car and I buy it within the hour. I now have a brand new JDM Duratect MRK watch for less than half the price!
> 
> The color difference between the 'Super Titanium' on my very similar AS4050-51E and the Duratect MRK on this PMV65-2271 is very subtle. The difference is that light reflects whitish on the non-MRK titanium, and it reflects yellowish/bronzish on the MRK titanium. The picture doesn't really show it, though it's equally subtle with the naked eye.


Fantastic stroke of luck on this one - shows that it pays to be vigilant. It would be interesting to see the different case surfaces in morning or late day sunlight, since those conditions tend to be the most visually revealing. Does the bracelet also come with the MRK treatment? Since we were on the subject, does your example of PMV65-2271 come equipped with a machined caseback?

Great find, congratulations on the acquisition.

Edit: Additionally, how is the micro-adjust clasp system? I have not had experience with this Citizen adjustment clasp, but it seems well thought out for small adjustments throughout the day. I have heard one person complaning that the folding section dug into his skin, but I was not entirely convinced the design of the clasp was the primary issue.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Thanks, I'm very happy with it. Though I find my AS4050-51E more beautiful, I very much admire the technology and features of the PMV65-2271. The caseback is identical to the one pictured below, so the elaborate one. I would guess it is forged, does that count as machined? I am only noticing now that the AS4050-51E (Pilot Chrono) also says Promaster in the forged part, while the caseback of the JY and PMV (Super Pilot) only says Citizen and Eco-Drive.

Super Pilot








Pilot Chrono









I will try to get a better picture in the right light of the two surfaces some day. AFAIK both the case and the band are MRK on the JDM watches.

Regarding the micro-adjust clasp. I haven't really worn it yet, but it is certainly easy to use. I doubt the micro-adjustable clasp would dig into your skin more than the regular one, because I don't think the adjustable part comes anywhere near your skin and the folding part that touches your skin seems identical, but even if it did, I wear my watch very loose so I would never notice.

I did find another difference between the EU and JDM Promaster Sky watches that have the checkered bezel, like the Pilot Chrono and the Super Pilot, that I never noticed in pictures. The EU bezel diamond pattern has less 'resolution', let's call it four-ish dots diagonally compared to the finer five-ish dots diagonally.
Now that I've told you, you will clearly see it.
JY








PMV









And here the EU Pilot Chrono (AS4050-51E) vs the JDM equivalent (PMP56-2931)

















I can't believe Citizen even makes the bezel checkering better on the JDM watches!


----------



## Ziptie

HorologicOptic said:


> Does the bracelet also come with the MRK treatment?
> 
> ...
> 
> Edit: Additionally, how is the micro-adjust clasp system? I have not had experience with this Citizen adjustment clasp, but it seems well thought out for small adjustments throughout the day. I have heard one person complaning that the folding section dug into his skin, but I was not entirely convinced the design of the clasp was the primary issue.


Pretty sure all citizen bracelets have the same treatment as the cases, as the coloring is identical. I imagine that would be difficult without the same treatment.

There is one Citizen that has a challenging clasp that a few folks have been unhappy with. I've loved all of mine, except for the Calendrier deployant buckle.

On the Attesa models you release the 3 position micro adjust with the main buttons. On the promasters the release has a second pair of dedicated buttons. All of them ratchet tighter by pushing.


----------



## umarrajs

My GPS..........Duratech + MRK...........still in love!
122gm on Bracelet


----------



## GaryK30

Ziptie said:


> Pretty sure all citizen bracelets have the same treatment as the cases, as the coloring is identical. I imagine that would be difficult without the same treatment.
> 
> There is one Citizen that has a challenging clasp that a few folks have been unhappy with. I've loved all of mine, except for the Calendrier deployant buckle.
> 
> On the Attesa models you release the 3 position micro adjust with the main buttons. On the promasters the release has a second pair of dedicated buttons. All of them ratchet tighter by pushing.


Yes, the tool-free micro adjust clasp on my Attesa AT8040-57E works as you describe. I'm not sure which Duratect this one has, but there are some scuffs on the bracelet and case, and fine scratches on the bezel. I am the second owner. The finish flaws didn't show up in the sale pics.

The bigger annoyance to me is that the minute hand is two minutes ahead of the hour hand (and 24-hour hand). This is especially noticeable at 6 o'clock, when the minute hand points to 12 the hour hand is noticeably short of 6. My other four Citizens have much better minute/hour hand alignment. In fact, my AT8020-03L has excellent alignment on all six hands. It has an H800 movement, which is the same as the H804 in the AT8040-57E, except for the date position.

I wish there were an inexpensive way to have the hand alignment corrected on the AT8040-57E, but I suspect that it will cost more than I'm willing to pay. With the stepper motor hands, it's a bit more complicated. Not only do you have to get the minute hand in the proper alignment with the hour hand, but the minute hand must be put in the proper alignment with the minute markers. As it stands, the minute hand, which moves six times per minute, skips over the minute markers rather than pointing to them (about 1/2 step off in alignment).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The misalignment you are talking about is smaller than what the hand-alignment function allows you to adjust? I assume you tried that? Page 50.
https://www.citizenwatch-global.com/support/pdf-guide/h800/e.pdf


----------



## GaryK30

CitizenPromaster said:


> The misalignment you are talking about is smaller than what the hand-alignment function allows you to adjust? I assume you tried that? Page 50.
> https://cf-store.widencdn.net/citiz...MPnWE9R1Lw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJD5XONOBVWWOA65A


As far as the minute hand, the misalignment is about 1/2 step, so adjusting it misses the minute markers (falls just short or just past).

As far as the hour hand, it's not separately adjustable since it's geared to the minute hand. I'm disappointed that they didn't take more care with this at the factory, especially since this is an Attesa model. I should have asked for more hand alignment pics from the seller before I bought it.

I just got spoiled with my AT8020-03L. All of the hands have excellent alignment. I guess it was just the luck of the draw.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The second hand is one thing, but you said: "The bigger annoyance to me is that the minute hand is two minutes ahead of the hour hand (and 24-hour hand). This is especially noticeable at 6 o'clock, when the minute hand points to 12 the hour hand is noticeably short of 6." Does this mean that when the hour hand is pointing at 6, the minute hand is two minutes ahead? I thought the whole point of the reference position thing is to solve this.


----------



## GaryK30

CitizenPromaster said:


> The second hand is one thing, but you said: "The bigger annoyance to me is that the minute hand is two minutes ahead of the hour hand (and 24-hour hand). This is especially noticeable at 6 o'clock, when the minute hand points to 12 the hour hand is noticeably short of 6." Does this mean that when the hour hand is pointing at 6, the minute hand is two minutes ahead? I thought the whole point of the reference position thing is to solve this.


Yes, the hour hand points to the hour marker about two minutes after the top of every hour. The reference position can't correct this because the minute hand, hour hand (and 24-hour hand) are all geared together. There is no separate adjustment for the minute hand and hour hands when adjusting the reference position.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ok I guess that's why the manual says "minute/hour/24-hour hands", meaning they are linked. That's a shame, on some calibers the hour and minute hands are seperately adjustable. Tough luck then :-(


----------



## GaryK30

CitizenPromaster said:


> Ok I guess that's why the manual says "minute/hour/24-hour hands", meaning they are linked. That's a shame, on some calibers the hour and minute hands are seperately adjustable. Tough luck then :-(


On my Promaster Sky BY0080-57E the minute and second hands were linked. Luckily the alignment was perfect on this one.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Promaster Sky watches rule!!! ^_^ Were/was? You sold it?


----------



## GaryK30

CitizenPromaster said:


> Promaster Sky watches rule!!! ^_^ Were/was? You sold it?


Great watch overall, but it was a bit bigger than I prefer. I actually sold it back to the guy I bought it from when he told me he missed it. The internal slide rule bezel was a bit sloppy on this one, and it had a ding in the outer bezel when I received it that looked bad in certain lighting. I also prefer a large second hand rather than a small one on a subdial.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I have a theory by the way, that all Sky watches (or at least their cases and bracelets) were made in two batches.
The first batch being the ones with the Citizen/Eco-Drive/Promaster caseback, like my AS4050-51E and the PMP56-2931, around 2008-2011.
The second batch being the ones with the Citizen/Eco-Drive caseback, like the other Promaster Sky watches, from around 2011-2013.
I have no real hard evidence, but the PMV65-2271 I have only seen with serial numbers beginning with 1 or 3. I think they made them sort of clustered and just sold stock after that.

Citizen Japan doesn't sell the new Sky CB5850-80E with E660 I posted earlier. I think they ran out of fancy casebacks but still had some non-MRK cases left, or maybe they made another batch of cases, but I doubt it, because Japan still only has the old Sky Pilot models with MRK, and they don't bother with the non-MRK. But they did treat themselves to a brand new MRK diver...

Anyway, this is all speculation, but HorologicOptic can tell you why my theory is plausible from a titanium point of view.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Also I tried to take a picture in the morning light with the Super Titanium (Duratect TIC) and Duratect MRK next to eachother, but it is hard to capture the color difference, though the MRK titanium looks noticeably more yellowish/bronzish, glare wise, as I mentioned before. You will just have to take my word for it


----------



## Snaggletooth

BN0118


----------



## MAD777

I've had this one for nearly 20 years. One a several Citizens, but my only titanium.









Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## CitizenPromaster

I think that one is from before the Super Titanium/Duratect days, but I actually like the look of 'raw' titanium. I had a similar Lorus titanium watch before I could afford Promaster Sky watches ^_^

The white dials but the bracelet from the second watch.

















I was hoping the Duratect MRK would look more like raw titanium, but it doesn't.


----------



## sticky

I’ve had my BN0118-55E for several days now and haven’t scratched it yet - a record for me and titanium watches.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have a theory by the way, that all Sky watches (or at least their cases and bracelets) were made in two batches.
> The first batch being the ones with the Citizen/Eco-Drive/Promaster caseback, like my AS4050-51E and the PMP56-2931, around 2008-2011.
> The second batch being the ones with the Citizen/Eco-Drive caseback, like the other Promaster Sky watches, from around 2011-2013.
> I have no real hard evidence, but the PMV65-2271 I have only seen with serial numbers beginning with 1 or 3. I think they made them sort of clustered and just sold stock after that.
> 
> Citizen Japan doesn't sell the new Sky CB5850-80E with E660 I posted earlier. I think they ran out of fancy casebacks but still had some non-MRK cases left, or maybe they made another batch of cases, but I doubt it, because Japan still only has the old Sky Pilot models with MRK, and they don't bother with the non-MRK. But they did treat themselves to a brand new MRK diver...
> 
> Anyway, this is all speculation, but HorologicOptic can tell you why my theory is plausible from a titanium point of view.


All I can claim is additional speculation based on real-world experience, but I do think that this is plausible.

For the type of product Citizen make (long time on market, global demand) we can assume that bulk manufacturing and warehousing isn't out of the question from a business standpoint, or at least that it's not too far fetched.

From the manufacturing and materials side, factors that Citizen would need to account for such as lead times, raw material quality (read: consistency), forging process monitoring (factory likely not in Japan, would need Japanese nationals supervising to get the "Made in Japan" label as I understand it), and special processes (e.g. diffusion hardening) and different models sharing cases and bracelets (e.g. PMV65-2271, BY0080-57E) all lead me to believe that it would make a good deal of sense to manufacture large quantities of cases and bracelets ahead of sales and export schedules.

Since this does somewhat regard a surface treatment I think we are still technically on topic :rodekaart


----------



## Snaggletooth

sticky said:


> I've had my BN0118-55E for several days now and haven't scratched it yet - a record for me and titanium watches.


How are you getting on with the bracelet?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

We are still very much on topic! What makes you say it is likely the titanium factory would be abroad? And do you mean for case production, or also surface treatment?

"Citizen is one of the most vertically integrated manufactures in the world. They make all the components in-house in Japan. Contrary to what some may be led to believe, all movements (including movements sold to third party labelled Miyota) are manufactured in Japan, and they do not have any manufacturing facility outside the home country. All components are manufactured within the company, from integrated circuits, to electronic chips, to mechanical components. The only exception is the movements used in some Campagnola watches are made by La Joux Perret, a company which Citizen owns, and which manufactures out of Switzerland.
Citizen makes the cases, the dial, the hands, the movement, all totally within their premises. They even make the machines which make the parts. We visited the factory in Iida, but they have manufacturing facilities in the town of Miyota, which churns out the millions of movements used by third parties all over the world."
Source: https://deployant.com/5-facts-about-citizen-watch-company-which-you-may-not-know/

And here are photos of a factory tour, though there is no sign of case production. https://gearpatrol.com/2016/05/31/citizen-watches-factory-tour/


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> We are still very much on topic! What makes you say it is likely the titanium factory would be abroad? And do you mean for case production, or also surface treatment?
> 
> "Citizen is one of the most vertically integrated manufactures in the world. They make all the components in-house in Japan. Contrary to what some may be led to believe, all movements (including movements sold to third party labelled Miyota) are manufactured in Japan, and they do not have any manufacturing facility outside the home country. All components are manufactured within the company, from integrated circuits, to electronic chips, to mechanical components. The only exception is the movements used in some Campagnola watches are made by La Joux Perret, a company which Citizen owns, and which manufactures out of Switzerland.
> Citizen makes the cases, the dial, the hands, the movement, all totally within their premises. They even make the machines which make the parts. We visited the factory in Iida, but they have manufacturing facilities in the town of Miyota, which churns out the millions of movements used by third parties all over the world."
> Source: https://deployant.com/5-facts-about-citizen-watch-company-which-you-may-not-know/
> 
> And here are photos of a factory tour, though there is no sign of case production. https://gearpatrol.com/2016/05/31/citizen-watches-factory-tour/


To my knowledge there is some obscurity to this topic and I cannot offer much more than extrapolation of the information available to me. I am familiar with that article, and I am just as skeptical of the gleaming write-up today as I was when I initially read it. All I can say for sure is that I am currently wearing a titanium Citizen watch with an OEM Ti bracelet marked as Thai in origin (pun intended?) and a case marked "Japan Mov't." To me this implies that the case is manufactured and the watch assembled outside of Japan.

From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Japanese product marking regulations related to country of origin, watches marked "Made in Japan" are not required to have all of their components actually manufactured in Japan, and in many situations even the assembly and QC do not have to be performed on Japanese territory, provided the factory and supervising personnel are Japanese. A brief write-up that broaches the subject (in Japanese) - Made in Japan

Since the watch I am currently wearing ( CA0650-58E ) is marketed and sold in the US, its markings are required to be in compliance with US trade law. If the same watch were limited to the JDM, it is a distinct possibility that the markings might read "Made in Japan" since the factories involved in its production are likely entirely owned by Citizen. Since this is a US market watch, however, Citizen are required to mark it in a more stringent manner. Since only the movement was manufactured in Japan, likely out of components made in other countries, it must be marked accordingly. In fact, by US customs regulations Citizen would not be allowed to mark the movement as originating where its subcomponents were manufactured, even if they wanted to, since final assembly was performed in Japan. Here is a customs inquiry relevant to this topic.

Based on these things it is my belief, having not seen direct evidence to the contrary, that aside from the highest grades of watches (e.g. Attesa, The Citizen) Citizen utilize factories outside of Japan for bracelet and case production.







/____________\








-

Edit - Added photos for posterity.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Well I guess bracelet stamps don't lie. Too bad we never see Japanese people on this forum, who could perform proper Japanese google searches, let alone a Citizen employee who could enlighten us.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Duplicate post


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## CitizenPromaster

I have some evidence too. I have an old Attesa watch, titanium of course, and the bracelet says: CITIZEN BASE TITANIUM JAPAN, which suggests they did produce titanium parts in Japan in the early 90s.

The below photo of the Attesa bracelet also demonstrates the effect of the surface treatment very clearly, Super Titanium/Duratect TIC on the left, regular titanium on the right.

View attachment 14844145


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Look what I found is for sale on the Japanese Citizen website (BN0121-00E)










This seems to me an exception though, I'm giving Citizen the benefit of the doubt for now...


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## CitizenPromaster

Duplicate, silly software


----------



## sticky

Snaggletooth said:


> How are you getting on with the bracelet?


The bracelet is great but the clasp and my jumper don't see eye to eye. If I'd bought the watch in the summer it might have taken me years to discover this. I tend to have a very short attention span when it comes to watches but this one keeps drawing me back - much to the Sub's annoyance.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Just read this on Sweephand's Vintage Citizen blog: "Finally, the back is stamped with ‘HMC’, which I have seen occasionally before on several watches. I have never fully got to the bottom of its meaning, but my best guess is that it relates to Citizen’s Korean casing and assembly factory, which was acquired in the early 1970s – and was known as the Hanmi Citizen Precision Industry."

So more 'proof' of at least historical Citizen factories abroad, add to that the "cased in China" one posted above... I am no longer giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Edit: Elsewhere Sweephand says: "Did you know that Citizen had a factory in Mexico, so yours may have been made there."


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Some official Citizen titanium history I saved from extinction
















Edit: actually, these images can still be found on a current page about Super Titanium
https://www.citizenwatch-global.com/technologies/super-titanium/


----------



## CitizenPromaster

So I was re-reading this thread, and someone actually posted another titanium Citizen that was made in China in 2002.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f905/def...-duratect-mrk-dlc-3494498-4.html#post38333298


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today I am very excited to present to you (thanks to Gizmodo and google translate) an interview with the man who designed the first Citizen Attesa in 1987, who talks about Citizens journey with titanium and surface treatment.









Jun Komatsu (photo by Hiroki Ohara)

Click here to read: https://translate.google.com/transl...odo.jp/2017/05/citizen-attesa-f900-titan.html

Spoiler: For the 30th anniversary of Attesa in 2017, they gave an Attesa Duratect MRK (+ DLC) for the first time, it was the CC9065-56L, with caliber F900.
Currently, as far as I can tell, only one Attesa model gets Duratect MRK (+DLC), the CC4004-58E with caliber F950.

The article also offers a future perspective on Citizen's titanium, but I will let you read that for yourselves.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Today I am very excited to present to you (thanks to Gizmodo and google translate) an interview with the man who designed the first Citizen Attesa in 1987, who talks about Citizens journey with titanium and surface treatment.
> 
> https://translate.google.com/transl...odo.jp/2017/05/citizen-attesa-f900-titan.html
> 
> Spoiler: For the 30th anniversary of Attesa in 2017, they gave an Attesa Duratect MRK (+ DLC) for the first time, it was the CC9065-56L, with caliber F900.
> Currently, as far as I can tell, only one Attesa model gets Duratect MRK (+DLC), the CC4004-58E with caliber F950.
> 
> The article also offers a future perspective on Citizen's titanium, but I will let you read that for yourselves.


Great find, Promaster. What an interesting insight into the development of Citizen titanium production and their Duratect processes. I am also interested to find out that one of the founding principles of the Attesa line was a focus on bringing the shine of stainless steel to titanium. I was also interested to see an early Attesa featured that includes an "ashtray" type rotating bezel similar to the mid-80's Seiko Tunas.

Keep up the research! In the meantime, I have been doing some more research of my own on Citizen and their titanium production. Hopefully I can find something of note to post here.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Yes, I lucked into it while searching for additional photo's of the first Citizen Attesa, and google images came up with the below (I think it is being held by Jun Komatsu) and it turned out to be part of an article about Citizen titanium. It is so incredibly perfect for this thread, I can still hardly believe it. Too bad only 5 people on WUS care about this subject lol









Photo by Hiroki Ohara, I think the second photo to exist of this watch on the internet (after the Citizen history one)


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Yes, I lucked into it while searching for additional photo's of the first Citizen Attesa, and google images came up with the below (I think it is being held by Jun Komatsu) and it turned out to be part of an article about Citizen titanium. It is so incredibly perfect for this thread, I can still hardly believe it. Too bad only 5 people on WUS care about this subject lol


I too lament how few seem to be interested in what seems to be the bleeding edge of consumer focused titanium production. This stuff, to me, is just too cool to miss out on, but I guess this will be a bit of a hidden gem for anyone looking. Thanks to your efforts and research keeping things fresh and keeping this thread on the front page of the Citizen forum we might see a few new faces in time.



CitizenPromaster said:


> Photo by Hiroki Ohara, I think the second photo to exist of this watch on the internet (after the Citizen history one)


This did blow my mind a little bit. I too have not seen any other image of this model outside of that Citizen official history retrospective (thanks for posting that here, by the way). It speaks to the rarity of the piece that even the designer only has a well-loved example, likely his own. Great piece of history, even if it's relatively obscure to most.



CitizenPromaster said:


> Today I am very excited to present to you (thanks to Gizmodo and google translate) an interview with the man who designed the first Citizen Attesa in 1987, who talks about Citizens journey with titanium and surface treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jun Komatsu (photo by Hiroki Ohara)
> 
> Click here to read: https://translate.google.com/transl...odo.jp/2017/05/citizen-attesa-f900-titan.html
> 
> Spoiler: For the 30th anniversary of Attesa in 2017, they gave an Attesa Duratect MRK (+ DLC) for the first time, it was the CC9065-56L, with caliber F900.
> Currently, as far as I can tell, only one Attesa model gets Duratect MRK (+DLC), the CC4004-58E with caliber F950.
> 
> The article also offers a future perspective on Citizen's titanium, but I will let you read that for yourselves.


Interestingly, upon closer inspection, it looks as if Jun Komatsu is wearing an Eco Drive Ring BU1020-08A. If this is the case that would be a little bit ironic, since when Citizen manufactured a limited run of the Ring in 2012, all pieces were cased in _*stainless steel*_.








Photo courtesy of Citizen

All that said, the Eco Drive Ring is a sight to behold. I'd love to see one in the metal someday.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I did notice something big hanging from his wrist, but I couldn't identify it. I think you are right on the money.

Ironic? Not entirely, because this man is all about the surface treatment and Citizen also applies Duratect to stainless steel, like on the Eco-Drive One (the first one, later they appeared in Super Titanium with Duratect alpha) and also on this Eco-Drive Ring.

"To maximize the amount of light that hits the solar cell, the watches 44.4mm stainless steel case has hollow lugs, leaving no aspect of the sides in the dark. The case is hand polished to a mirror finish and is coated with Citizen's proprietary Duratect Coating. This clear plating helps preserve its beautiful finish by making the steel 3 to 4 times harder than its original form."

I borrowed this quote from this WUS thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/citi...ncept-watch-limited-edition-250-a-909266.html


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> I did notice something big hanging from his wrist, but I couldn't identify it. I think you are right on the money.
> 
> Ironic? Not entirely, because this man is all about the surface treatment and Citizen also applies Duratect to stainless steel, like on the Eco-Drive One (the first one, later they appeared in Super Titanium with Duratect alpha) and also on this Eco-Drive Ring.
> 
> "To maximize the amount of light that hits the solar cell, the watches 44.4mm stainless steel case has hollow lugs, leaving no aspect of the sides in the dark. The case is hand polished to a mirror finish and is coated with Citizen's proprietary Duratect Coating. This clear plating helps preserve its beautiful finish by making the steel 3 to 4 times harder than its original form."
> 
> I borrowed this quote from this WUS thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/citi...ncept-watch-limited-edition-250-a-909266.html


Right you are! I was thinking from the titanium angle, but he definitely has his bases covered. I wish there were more interviews with Jun Komatsu available as he seems to have been on the ground floor of many important developments in modern Japanese watchmaking. Most impressive.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

By the way, I just checked and the Eco-Drive One is still for sale in stainless steel with Duratect alpha, as well as Super Titanium with Duratect Alpha, and some other fancy materials like cermet, binderless cemented carbide and Altic.
"Altic is a fine ceramic made of alumina and titanium carbide that marks more than 1,900 HV (Vickers hardness number)."
"Cermet is an advanced composite composed of ceramic and metallic materials. It is made by combusting a mixture of hard compound particles such as metallic carbides and nitrides with metallic binding materials."
"Binderless cemented carbide is a type of cemented carbide mainly made of tungsten carbide powder with no metallic binder such as cobalt and nickel. It has superior hardness, corrosion resistance and oxidation resistance."

I don't know what the deal is with the Altic, because Super Titanium with Duratect alpha has a higher HV, but I have a feeling that doesn't lend itself for very thin applications, like the screw-on bezel of the Eco-Drive One. The One models that have a Super Titanium case have an integrated bezel it seems, not the seperate screw-on bezel like on the other variants. So it's either stainless steel case with cermet bezel, or cermet case with Altic bezel, or Super Titanium case without bezel.

I don't know how many more interviews are hidden on Japanese website, but I have a feeling this type of interview is very rare indeed.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

CitizenPromaster said:


> By the way, I just checked and the Eco-Drive One is still for sale in stainless steel with Duratect alpha, as well as Super Titanium with Duratect Alpha, and some other fancy materials like cermet, binderless cemented carbide and Altic.
> "Altic is a fine ceramic made of alumina and titanium carbide that marks more than 1,900 HV (Vickers hardness number)."
> "Cermet is an advanced composite composed of ceramic and metallic materials. It is made by combusting a mixture of hard compound particles such as metallic carbides and nitrides with metallic binding materials."
> "Binderless cemented carbide is a type of cemented carbide mainly made of tungsten carbide powder with no metallic binder such as cobalt and nickel. It has superior hardness, corrosion resistance and oxidation resistance."
> 
> I don't know what the deal is with the Altic, because Super Titanium with Duratect alpha has a higher HV, but I have a feeling that doesn't lend itself for very thin applications, like the screw-on bezel of the Eco-Drive One. The One models that have a Super Titanium case have an integrated bezel it seems, not the seperate screw-on bezel like on the other variants. So it's either stainless steel case with cermet bezel, or cermet case with Altic bezel, or Super Titanium case without bezel.
> 
> I don't know how many more interviews are hidden on Japanese website, but I have a feeling this type of interview is very rare indeed.


Altic, binderless cemented carbide, & Cermet sound like they're similar to the materials used by Rado (hardmetal, high-tech ceramic, & Ceramos) & IWC (ceratanium).


----------



## martyloveswatches

My ex, 80's TIN coated titanium 800m diver...









Poslano sa mog FRD-L09 koristeći Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

> This did blow my mind a little bit. I too have not seen any other image of this model outside of that Citizen official history retrospective (thanks for posting that here, by the way). It speaks to the rarity of the piece that even the designer only has a well-loved example, likely his own. Great piece of history, even if it's relatively obscure to most.


Actually, all the early Attesa's are incredibly rare. On the Japanese auction sites you can find a few early Eco-Drive models (from 1995 onwards), but the ones before that are few and far between. They all seem to be 32 mm, though I don't think they are women's watches. The beauty is in the exquisite finesse.

Here is one from 1993:








Here is another from 1993:








Here is one from 1994:








Another from 1994, the seller said it was a women's watch, but I think that was a misconception:








Here is one from 1995, you wouldn't know it is Eco-Drive, until you see the caseback:















And another 1995 Eco-Drive:















The above Eco-Drive casebacks are very detailed, later they were simplified, like this 1999 Attesa that still didn't say Eco-Drive on the dial:















Other than these, I have only seen three others from before 1995, and those are the only ones I've seen with a round date window at 6.








The above is one I found on the web, the below is one that somehow made it to The Netherlands where I bought it! It is from 1994.







I may be biased, but look at that dial! Roman numerals are not my thing, but they are so detailed and glossy, it's a sight to behold.

So that leaves one more Attesa with the round date window at 6, and I think this one is from 1989, because the caseback is not titanium, and the history says the first full titanium watch was made in 1993, and my 1994 watch is full titanium.







Look how dark this baby is.







And the caseback, serial starts with 9, and this is certainly no 1999 watch.








So there you have it, Attesa's early (titanium) history reconstructed to my best ability. Hope you enjoyed it.


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## yankeexpress




----------



## dgaddis

My Promaster Land PMD56-2952 is about a year old now (manufactured in Feb '19), tho I haven't had it a full year yet. This was my first 'nice' watch, and I genuinely love it. I love the simple and super legiible dial, it has great lume, perpetual calendar, 200m water resistance and screw down crown, it's light, the bracelet is comfy and doesn't pull arm hair, the quick adjust clasp is easy to use, isn't bulky, and can be adjusted without taking the watch off - I'd argue that clasp is one of the best on the market at any price range, certainly in function at least, it isn't the most elegant looking, but does fit the tool watch look for this watch. My only nitpick is it only picks up the japanese radio signal, and I don't live in Japan haha.

Mine has a DuraTech treatment, I'm not sure which, but it's held up well. The bracelet and case are both brushed and have no scratches. The bezel is DLC coated and also has no scratches. The clasp is the only part with some scratches. The fold over piece is particularly scratched up, but I know where most of those came from. We have several ceramic/stoneware baking sheets we use a lot, and several times when holding them in my left hand while drying them off I've heard the ceramic scratching at the clasp, and that fold over piece is the high point of the clasp that takes that abuse, and ceramic is HARD.









This is the piece that's got beat up by the ceramic baking sheets.








More typical 'desk diving' marks on the main body of the clasp.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Actually, all the early Attesa's are incredibly rare. On the Japanese auction sites you can find a few early Eco-Drive models (from 1995 onwards), but the ones before that are few and far between. They all seem to be 32 mm, though I don't think they are women's watches. The beauty is in the exquisite finesse.


Promaster, thanks for providing us with this great record of Attesa's early titanium history. It's great to document these things in a centeralized location not only for ease of access but also the simple fact that unfettered internet records are rather transient things - gone before we know it.

Did the Attesa line exist before Citizen branded their fashion-forward Ti watches as such? Based on the interview we were discussing yesterday I understood the Attesa line to be specifically for pushing titanium manufacture forward, at least at its inception.



CitizenPromaster said:


> So that leaves one more Attesa with the round date window at 6, and I think this one is from 1989, because the caseback is not titanium, and the history says the first full titanium watch was made in 1993, and my 1994 watch is full titanium.
> ...
> Look how dark this baby is.
> View attachment 14859917
> 
> And the caseback, serial starts with 9, and this is certainly no 1999 watch.
> ...
> So there you have it, Attesa's early (titanium) history reconstructed to my best ability. Hope you enjoyed it.


I certainly enjoy seeing these watches for the first time. That nautilus logo is great, too bad Citizen phased it out. The folded links on this 1989 (!!) example really speak to the early difficulties, or at least cost constraints, in manufacturing titanium watches back then. The dark color you highlight was likely as polarizing at the time a Citizen present it. I can see why they wanted to achieve a look closer to stainless steel since this is undeniably out of that spectrum.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

That is one of my favorite Promasters. You might not live in Japan, but there used to be an app that lets you fool your Japanese RC watch to sync the time with your smartphone and a pair of headphones (the cable functions as the antenna I believe), but I don't remember the details. I think it's here on WUS somewhere.


----------



## dgaddis

CitizenPromaster said:


> That is one of my favorite Promasters. You might not live in Japan, but there used to be an app that lets you fool your Japanese RC watch to sync the time with your smartphone and a pair of headphones (the cable functions as the antenna I believe), but I don't remember the details. I think it's here on WUS somewhere.


Yep, I use the ClockWave app. You don't need headphones, you can just use the speaker on the phone. It works by using the magnets in the speaker to create a radio signal somehow. Electrical magic! It works well.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@HorologicOptic: It is my understanding the Attesa brand was launched in 1987. The USP for Attesa was indeed titanium, and where at the end of the interview they discuss the future of titanium, not necessarily returning to the old color, but at least differentiating it from stainless steel, well their plans materialised as the following marketing that is currently on the Japanese Citizen Attesa page, the Black Titanium (TM) series.










ATTESA Black Titanium ™ Series

Atessa launches a new series that opens up the future of titanium.
"Black Titanium ™ Series" was born as ATTESA's high-end series on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the brand.
It is a title that is only allowed for ATTESA wearing a hard and beautiful carbon hard film "Duratect DLC".
We will return to the origin as a brand created to spread titanium and open up the future of titanium.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> @HorologicOptic: It is my understanding the Attesa brand was launched in 1987. The USP for Attesa was indeed titanium, and where at the end of the interview they discuss the future of titanium, not necessarily returning to the old color, but at least differentiating it from stainless steel, well their plans materialised as the following marketing that is currently on the Japanese Citizen Attesa page, the Black Titanium (TM) series.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ATTESA Black Titanium ™ Series
> 
> Atessa launches a new series that opens up the future of titanium.
> "Black Titanium ™ Series" was born as ATTESA's high-end series on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the brand.
> It is a title that is only allowed for ATTESA wearing a hard and beautiful carbon hard film "Duratect DLC".
> We will return to the origin as a brand created to spread titanium and open up the future of titanium.


I have been keeping an eye on the new(?) direction for the Attesa brand recently. To be honest, I have mixed feeling about the push for the Black Titanium series. DLC is a cool thing, but it's easily my least favorite of the Citizen surface finishes/treatments. I guess I'm just not that into dark watches, though one of my favorites in my Citizen collection has a black/gunmetal PVD coating, so go figure. (Though not advertised as Duratect, it is quite hard in relation to my spring bar tool.)

Here's hoping that it remains as a product line providing the Citizen customer base with more options, rather than the exclusive direction of their Attesa lineup.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Yes, I am also not a big fan of black surfaces, though I do like the dark grey titanium very much, just not black.
When they said Germany was returning to grey titanium, I wonder who they were talking about... Since it was 2017, it might have been Porsche Design?










Though it's still far off the original color.








Left: Porsche Design Titan Chronograph by IWC (1980) - Right: Porsche Design ref. P'6530 re-issue by Eterna (2010)


----------



## Maddog1970

Royal Marine Commando, PVD (?) coated DLC.....minty and bomb proof!


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

CitizenPromaster said:


> . . .
> 
> Though it's still far off the original color.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left: Porsche Design Titan Chronograph by IWC (1980) - Right: Porsche Design ref. P'6530 re-issue by Eterna (2010)


"Natural" or not, the warmer color of the 1980 model is what I associate w/titanium consumer products as they were introduced in the '80s & '90s. In the camera world, we called it "champagne" (as seen on Kyocera Contax's G1 & G2, Nikon's 35Ti & 28Ti, etc.).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

For good measure I am re-posting another lost image, containing official information from the Citizen website as it existed in 2001.
I think we can conclude that even on the early Attesa's, Citizen never used bare titanium, but one of the options below.









And re-posting some technical info on the more recent ion plating (IP) etc. (by the way, IP is actually a physical vapor deposition (PVD) process)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I find the ion-plating image highly confusing by the way, Citizen talks about Titanium Carbide (TIC) all the time, and in the image they feed Nitrogen (N2) to create Titanium Nitride (TiN). WHAT?! Then in the end the layer shown is Titanium Carbide again. But I guess that image with TiN is just to illustrate the concept? And their actual proprietary process they don't want to reveal? The below supports that theory.

"The "ION plating" on Citizen watches is not Titanium Nitride (TiN). Citizen's process produces a Titanium Carbide (TiC) coating, which is actually tougher than TiN. The TiC coating is a very thin layer of carbide ceramic crystal which has been permanently deposited and bonded on to the base metal. This layer is intrinsically extremely hard (TiC is very nearly as hard as diamond) because its constituent titanium and carbon atoms form a dense, highly symmetric, cubic structure. The high hardness of this layer prevents the base metal from being scuffed or scratched when exposed to abrasion.
TiC, and some similar compounds such as tungsten carbide, are widely used in the metalworking industry as cutting tools. These carbide tools are capable of cutting metals faster and more cleanly than conventional tool steel, they also last much longer as they tolerate high heat without softening. Some exotic materials, like Inconel or Hastealloy, are practically impossible to machine without carbide tools. I should note that these tools are often solid carbide ceramic, and are not layers deposited on a base metal. In some circumstances steel tools are plated with TiC or TiN to improve their cutting properties and lifespan.
TiC is usually black in color, but it can be doped with other elements (I seem to recall Cobalt, but might be off the mark) to produce different colors."


----------



## jstay

dgaddis said:


> My Promaster Land PMD56-2952 is about a year old now (manufactured in Feb '19), tho I haven't had it a full year yet. This was my first 'nice' watch, and I genuinely love it. I love the simple and super legiible dial, it has great lume, perpetual calendar, 200m water resistance and screw down crown, it's light, the bracelet is comfy and doesn't pull arm hair, the quick adjust clasp is easy to use, isn't bulky, and can be adjusted without taking the watch off - I'd argue that clasp is one of the best on the market at any price range, certainly in function at least, it isn't the most elegant looking, but does fit the tool watch look for this watch. My only nitpick is it only picks up the japanese radio signal, and I don't live in Japan haha.
> 
> Mine has a DuraTech treatment, I'm not sure which, but it's held up well. The bracelet and case are both brushed and have no scratches. The bezel is DLC coated and also has no scratches. The clasp is the only part with some scratches. The fold over piece is particularly scratched up, but I know where most of those came from. We have several ceramic/stoneware baking sheets we use a lot, and several times when holding them in my left hand while drying them off I've heard the ceramic scratching at the clasp, and that fold over piece is the high point of the clasp that takes that abuse, and ceramic is HARD.
> 
> A nice piece. There is beauty in simplicity.
> 
> I was thinking of getting one but just like you I am outside of the Japan calibration signal zone.
> 
> Since you have owned it for a while and are not within the calibration zone, I would like to ask you some questions regarding ownership outside of Japan:
> 
> 1a. Does the perpetual calendar work without the calibration signals? In other words, can the watch detect which months are 30 and 31 without relying on the calibration signal?
> 
> 1b. What about February leap years?
> 
> 2. One way to get the watch to sync is to use an emulator which emits the JJY signal and press the button for manual sync.
> 
> BUT, I understand this model attempts to sync autonomously every night at 2am. If the 2am sync fails, it tries again at 4am.
> 
> Yet it is unlikely that one would turn on the emulator signal at those times, hence the two syncs at 2am and 4am would definitely fail.
> 
> Is there a way to disable the automatic syncs? I don't like the idea of "wasted" syncs. "Wasted" in the sense that the autonomous syncs are doomed to fail outside of Japan and saps power from the eco-drive battery.
> 
> Thank you!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Could you please continue the radio control discussion here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/citi...g-radiocontrolled-history-thread-3975170.html

We like to get a little lost in this thread, but there are limits


----------



## jstay

CitizenPromaster said:


> Could you please continue the radio control discussion here:
> 
> We like to get a little lost in this thread, but there are limits


Got it. Posted it there!



dgaddis said:


> My Promaster Land PMD56-2952 is about a year old now (manufactured in Feb '19), tho I haven't had it a full year yet. This was my first 'nice' watch, and I genuinely love it. I love the simple and super legiible dial, it has great lume, perpetual calendar, 200m water resistance and screw down crown, it's light, the bracelet is comfy and doesn't pull arm hair, the quick adjust clasp is easy to use, isn't bulky, and can be adjusted without taking the watch off - I'd argue that clasp is one of the best on the market at any price range, certainly in function at least, it isn't the most elegant looking, but does fit the tool watch look for this watch. My only nitpick is it only picks up the japanese radio signal, and I don't live in Japan haha.
> 
> Mine has a DuraTech treatment, I'm not sure which, but it's held up well. The bracelet and case are both brushed and have no scratches. The bezel is DLC coated and also has no scratches. The clasp is the only part with some scratches. The fold over piece is particularly scratched up, but I know where most of those came from. We have several ceramic/stoneware baking sheets we use a lot, and several times when holding them in my left hand while drying them off I've heard the ceramic scratching at the clasp, and that fold over piece is the high point of the clasp that takes that abuse, and ceramic is HARD.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I have some free time this week, so I was able to do more research, and I discovered that Citizen actually has a division that will do surface treatment for anyone that is willing to pay, and they have been doing that for a long time!

It is called *Citizen Coating Service*, which is a surface treatment service. Their Japanese website actually is more detailed than Citizens marketing talk, so it should clear up any remaining confusion. Below I am quoting translated passages.

"Citizen's thin film coating began in 1974 with a study on the practical application of ion plating technology commissioned by the New Technology Development Corporation (currently the Japan Science and Technology Agency). In 1976, we succeeded in the world's first practical application to watch exterior parts, and after commercialization in Japan and overseas, we started a contract coating service in 1983. Since then, we have been working on the development and commercialization of DLC (hard carbon film) with dramatically improved adhesion and MRK (titanium surface hardening technology) for hardening titanium. In addition, the coating with hard properties is named DURATECT ™, and we are working on new value creation. We would like to respond to your requests with surface treatment technology that combines strength and beauty used in the exterior of these Citizen watches."

""Duratect ™" is a generic name of Citizen's unique surface hardening technology that protects the original beauty of the material from scratches by applying a special processing to the surface of the material. Citizen has obtained numerous patents for this "Duratect". This technology, born from the passion of technicians who want to use precious wrist watches for a long time and research over many years, continues to create products that are resistant to scratches, are always beautiful, and are gentle on the skin."

They offer three services, PVD, Duratect DLC, and Duratect MRK. All three are surface treatment, but PVD and DLC are bonded coatings, while MRK is "gas curing" or "gas hardening", which I understand to be diffusion hardening (see Wikipedia). Here is what they have to say about the three options.

*PVD coating*

"PVD coating is a method of physically forming a thin film on a substrate by bombarding solid materials with energy such as plasma. It is called dry plating, and it is possible to form a thin and hard film compared to wet plating which is a general plating method."

"Citizen has been developing coating technology for use in watch exteriors. We continue to pursue coatings that keep the appearance as beautiful as possible, as well as functional aspects.
As a result, a coating with high adhesion, good color development and good coverage has been realized."










The translation from top to bottom is as follows (left side <--> middle <--> right side):
1 layer type <--> ..................... <--> Multi-layer type

-Gold color <--> ....................... <--> Gold color 
-Black color <--> ....................... <--> couldn't translate
-Gray <--> ................................<--> Pink Gold
-Dark Blue

...................<--> Precious metals <--> Au, Pt, etc
TiN, TiC, etc <--> Hardening layer <--> TiN, TiC, etc
Base material <--> ......................<--> Base material

There are several colors available, ranging from gold, to silver, to pink, to blue.

Application (quoted): hard, color, abrasion resistance, surpression of metal allergy, protect from small scratches, <coat with> precious metals.
Process (quoted): ion plating, sputtering.
Materials (quoted): titanium, stainless steel, metal + Cr plated product, ceramic.

Conclusion:
What Citizen calls PVD here, is the technology behind the so-called Super Titanium/Duratect TIC.

*DLC coating*

"DLC is an abbreviation for Diamond-Like Carbon, which refers to an amorphous carbon hard film composed mainly of carbon and hydrogen, and is also called amorphous carbon.
DLC is very hard and has excellent wear resistance, has a great effect on surface modification of various materials, and is used in many products including industrial products."

"DLC is a commonly used technology and stands for Diamond-Like Carbon. It is not only resistant to scratches, but also very smooth to touch. Citizen's Duratect ™ DLC differs from general DLC in that it adheres to intermediate materials thoroughly to improve adhesion. It is hard to peel off and has excellent durability. Furthermore, we pursue not only hardness but also beauty. Based on the fearless black color, it achieves an elegant and glossy shine up to the coloring of details."










Translation:
DLC
Middle level <--> 1~2 micron degree
Substrate

Additional info: "Superior adhesion is achieved by performing a unique pretreatment before forming the DLC film."

Application (quoted): stiff, slip, color, corrosion resistance, abrasion resistance, surpress metal allergy, protect from small scratches.
Process (quoted): plasma CVD
Materials (quoted): titanium, stainless steel, metal + Cr plated product, ceramic.

Conclusion:
We are all familiar with DLC, which they now call Black Titanium in the Attesa line.

*Duratect MRK (Titanium surface hardening treatment)*

"Unlike regular coating, Duratect ™ MRK uses a technology to harden the surface of the material itself, so it can protect the watch from scratches and other damage. It is often used in sports watches used in harsh environments. Citizen's "Duratect ™" started with the development of this Duratec ™ MRK and was patented in 1997. It is still evolving."

"Gas curing technology

A technique in which a gas is sealed in a vacuum device and subjected to heat treatment to allow the gas to permeate the material and form a hardened layer on the surface. It is particularly resistant to scratches and is resistant to scratches even in hard use environments."










Translation: hardening layer (MRK)

Additional info: "It cannot peel because it is not a film. It doesn't change the surface texture. The cured part is tens of times thicker than the coating, and is resistant to scratching."

Application (quoted): hardness, corrosion resistance, abrasion resistance, surpression of metal allergy, hard to be scratched, protect from small scratches, titanium hard.
Process (quoted): heat treatment
Materials (quoted): titanium

Conclusion:
Duratect MRK really is something completely different to Duratect TIC, which is now more clear.
I still don't know what MRK stands for though lol

Edit: I meant "I still don't know what the initialism MRK stands for", but when I asked Citizen Coating Service, they said MRK doesn't mean anything.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have some free time this week, so I was able to do more research, and I discovered that Citizen actually has a division that will do surface treatment for anyone that is willing to pay, and they have been doing that for a long time!
> 
> It is called *Citizen Coating Service*, which is a surface treatment service. Their Japanese website actually is more detailed than Citizens marketing talk, so it should clear up any remaining confusion. Below I am quoting translated passages.


Wow, stellar find! This is great to have each process laid out in more detail than the glossy Citizen Watch Company press releases and spec sheets allow.

Please keep up the research and reporting here. It's amazing what can be found with the help of browser integrated translation software that would have been completely obscured to foreigners not too many years ago. I also appreciate your re-uploading of the pictures lost in the Photobucket/Tinypic debacle. Never trusted external image hosting sites.



CitizenPromaster said:


> Translation: hardening layer (MRK)
> 
> Additional info: "It cannot peel because it is not a film. It doesn't change the surface texture. The cured part is tens of times thicker than the coating, and is resistant to scratching."
> 
> [...]
> 
> Duratect MRK really is something completely different to Duratect TIC, which is now more clear.
> I still don't know what MRK stands for though lol


Duratect MRK is a proprietary process for titanium diffusion hardening. Definitely exotic by consumer standards but not uncommon in certain industrial and commercial applications. There are a few freely available published papers on similar Ti diffusion hardening processes to read into. Something that would make for less dry of a read and still give a feel for the concept (to oppose it to coatings) would be looking into an older, far more crude application of a similar effect, except with carbon instead of nitrogen or oxygen - the Krupp armor process. Far different use case and many technical differences in processes, but fun stuff nonetheless.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

> Duratect MRK really is something completely different to Duratect TIC, which is now more clear.
> I still don't know what MRK stands for though lol





> Duratect MRK is a proprietary process for titanium diffusion hardening. Definitely exotic by consumer standards but not uncommon in certain industrial and commercial applications. There are a few freely available published papers on similar Ti diffusion hardening processes to read into. Something that would make for less dry of a read and still give a feel for the concept (to oppose it to coatings) would be looking into an older, far more crude application of a similar effect, except with carbon instead of nitrogen or oxygen - the Krupp armor process. Far different use case and many technical differences in processes, but fun stuff nonetheless.


I get the gist of diffusion hardening, but I meant it as "I still don't know what the initialism MRK stands for though lol" 

[and good folks, a free and unsollicited lesson: MRK is not an acronym, acronyms are pronounced like a word (NATO, SCUBA), unlike MRK, BBC, FBI, DNA]


----------



## CitizenPromaster

O, dear. Brand new release, CC7014-82E in Duratect MRK, "BAND CHINA". Citizen must have a factory in China then.
Not that I care or blame Citizen, but it puts that article's claim to bed, and I wonder who misinformed him...


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

CitizenPromaster said:


> O, dear. Brand new release, CC7014-82E in Duratect MRK, "BAND CHINA". Citizen must have a factory in China then.
> Not that I care or blame Citizen, but it puts that article's claim to bed, and I wonder who misinformed him...


Which article? Citizen has been making (or sourcing) bands/bracelets from China for years.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> We are still very much on topic! What makes you say it is likely the titanium factory would be abroad? And do you mean for case production, or also surface treatment?
> 
> "Citizen is one of the most vertically integrated manufactures in the world. They make all the components in-house in Japan. Contrary to what some may be led to believe, all movements (including movements sold to third party labelled Miyota) are manufactured in Japan, and they do not have any manufacturing facility outside the home country. All components are manufactured within the company, from integrated circuits, to electronic chips, to mechanical components. The only exception is the movements used in some Campagnola watches are made by La Joux Perret, a company which Citizen owns, and which manufactures out of Switzerland.
> Citizen makes the cases, the dial, the hands, the movement, all totally within their premises. They even make the machines which make the parts. We visited the factory in Iida, but they have manufacturing facilities in the town of Miyota, which churns out the millions of movements used by third parties all over the world."
> Source: https://deployant.com/5-facts-about-citizen-watch-company-which-you-may-not-know/
> 
> And here are photos of a factory tour, though there is no sign of case production. https://gearpatrol.com/2016/05/31/citizen-watches-factory-tour/


This article. But now that I am re-reading it, all he claims is that all *movements* are manufactured in Japan.
He does say "Citizen makes the cases, the dial, the hands, the movement, all totally within their premises", but that doesn't list bracelets.
I posted a watch that was labeled 'cased in China', but strictly speaking that only means the movement was put in the case in China, right?


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

CitizenPromaster said:


> This article. But now that I am re-reading it, all he claims is that all *movements* are manufactured in Japan.
> He does say "Citizen makes the cases, the dial, the hands, the movement, all totally within their premises", but that doesn't list bracelets.
> I posted a watch that was labeled 'cased in China', but strictly speaking that only means the movement was put in the case in China, right?


Got it. Yes, as a lawyer I would read the phrase "cased in China" to imply that the case was made in China & the movement (from someplace else) placed within it. In other WUS threads, usually in the Seiko subforum, there have been discussions of the intricacies of how manufacturers label parts with the country of origin. The actual laws are primarily determined by the countries that import the watches (the intended market) w/some input from the exporting/manufacturing country's laws, but there's plenty of room for manufacturers to spin label text according to their own marketing plans & practices.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Yes, HorologicOptic touched on these labeling rules also a few pages back, however, knowing how China loves industrial espionage, I have a hard time believing Citizen would install and operate their proprietary surface treatment machines in China. So I think the bracelets are made in China, but shipped to Japan for surface treatment, but I might be wrong.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

drunken-gmt-master said:


> Got it. Yes, as a lawyer I would read the phrase "cased in China" to imply that the case was made in China & the movement (from someplace else) placed within it.


I'm not a lawyer, but I take "cased in China" to mean only the assembly. I would expect a case made in China to read CASE CHINA, like BAND CHINA.


----------



## dgaddis

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have some free time this week, so I was able to do more research, and I discovered that Citizen actually has a division that will do surface treatment for anyone that is willing to pay, and they have been doing that for a long time!
> 
> It is called *Citizen Coating Service*, which is a surface treatment service. Their Japanese website actually is more detailed than Citizens marketing talk, so it should clear up any remaining confusion. Below I am quoting translated passages.
> 
> ....
> 
> Conclusion:
> What Citizen calls PVD here, is the technology behind the so-called Super Titanium/Duratect TIC.
> 
> ......
> 
> Conclusion:
> We are all familiar with DLC, which they now call Black Titanium in the Attesa line.
> 
> .....
> 
> Conclusion:
> Duratect MRK really is something completely different to Duratect TIC, which is now more clear.
> I still don't know what MRK stands for though lol


I was ready to disagree with you on the PVD = Duratect TIC because PVD to me has always been about adding color to something, and I assumed all Duratect treatments were not coatings but surface hardening treatments. But I believe you are correct, and their PVD does use color, but the color is 'titanium tone'. Interesting.

I've had my Promaster Land for almost a year now, but funny enough I never actually looked at it on the japanese website, and there's some good info there and some additional info on Citizen's titanium.

My watch :: https://citizen.jp/product/promaster/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=PMD56-2952 Notice in the symbols it has a TIC symbol. If you click the "About Icons" link there's several different titanium treatments mentioned, more than I realized were available - https://citizen.jp/product/guide/mark.html

Translated from that page. Anything in bold is either my emphasis or my comment. This may have been covered elsewhere and I missed it...



> TIC :: The hard coating (titanium carbide) is coated using Duratect TIC IP (ion plating) technology to harden the surface. *Utilizing titanium color tone*, it is mainly used for titanium products.
> 
> Duratect PTIC :: Duratect TIC is further coated with platinum, a precious metal. By controlling the thickness while keeping the hardness high, a beautiful color tone of platinum and a color tone equivalent to stainless steel are realized.
> Mainly used for luxury goods and women's products.
> 
> Duratect Gold :: Gold and alloy compounds are coated on the titanium nitride film using Duratect GOLD's unique IP (ion plating) technology.
> 
> Duratect DLC :: DLC stands for Diamond Like Carbon (diamond-like carbon) and is coated with an amorphous hard carbon film mainly composed of carbon and hydrogen. A fearless dark gray color.
> 
> Duratect MRK :: Nitrogen and oxygen penetrate the Duratect MRK titanium material from the surface to harden the surface of the material. Used in sports watches used in harsh environments.
> 
> Duratect DLC / MRK :: DLC (Carbon Hard Film) is coated on titanium material whose surface is hardened by Duratect DLC / MRK gas hardening technology.
> 
> Duratect α / MRK :: This is a technology that combines "MRK" gas curing technology and "Duratect α". A hard coating is superimposed on the hardened material surface to achieve further scratch resistance and excellent metal allergy resistance.
> *^^ Looks like Duratect Alpha is a combination of a surface hardening treatment (MRK) that is then coated in another hard layer.*
> 
> Platinum White Titanium :: Citizen's patented technology "Titanium (dry) surface treatment (ion plating)" coats the surface of titanium material with pure platinum. The gentle shine on the skin has been achieved while maintaining the beautiful radiance of platinum.
> 
> Duratect (*) :: The watch's original hardening technology "Duratect" has been applied to protect the original shine and beauty of the watch.
> (* Some parts are not subjected to duratect processing.)


In a tangent topic, did y'all know Citizen also makes CNC lathes? I'm a fan of the company Tactile Turn, I have a titanium pen of theirs in my pocket most days, and they recently purchased a Citizen lathe. You can see it in this instagram post ::

__
http://instagr.am/p/B7TV7_WHNhd/
 According to the comment from Will (owner of Tactile Turn) :: "yup! Different branch of the same company. They used other companies lathes for a long time and decided to start making their own. This is a "Swiss" style lathe and there are about ten other makers that do this type of large. Citizen controls about 50% of the USA market for these kind of lathes where the rest fight for the other half of the market. Citizen makes a great machine, so I wish I'd gone with them sooner!"

Talk about vertical integration - they make the machines to make their own watches!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@dgaddis: Yes, all the different coatings/treatments are covered on page 1 of this thread, but it doesn't hurt to have a short summary for people that enter the thread here.

By the way, did you know Citizen actually makes the people that make the machines that make their own watches? They have monthly orgies and raise the offspring to be employees.

Okay, that last part is FAKE NEWS


----------



## Ziptie

Here's a recent score, a PMD56-2973. I believe it's MRK with a DLC bezel. Love the dark color.










Interestingly, the serial number starts with a 7. I think these were released in 2009, so does that imply this is from 2017?


----------



## Ziptie

Addendum: there were three versions of that model, all with different treatments and resulting colors.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Oh I almost forgot about those! I have a couple of pics saved on my computer though. Their serial numbers are 700162 and 700175.
They are very much from 2007: https://japwatches.wordpress.com/20...ter-sky-pmd56-2971-pmd56-2972-and-pmd56-2973/

The PMD56-2973 is fully DLC by the way, hence the dark color.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Some official Citizen titanium history I saved from extinction
> 
> View attachment 14856183
> 
> View attachment 14856187
> 
> 
> Edit: actually, these images can still be found on a current page about Super Titanium
> https://www.citizenwatch-global.com/technologies/super-titanium/


To go with this.









Both references to the 2000 Promaster Tough are vague on the specifics of the surface hardening, but since it doesn't mention a coating or IP, I'm guessing it's an early version of MRK.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

So I was browsing the 2007 Japanese Citizen website to see if my grail watches are indeed MRK, and I noticed that in the specifications they were listed as "case: hard titanium", and it was only that blue symbol with the letters MRK in it that denoted it was an MRK watch. Non-MRK titanium watches were labeled as "surface treatment: white IP plating" with the blue symbol with the letters TIC in it. The PMP56-2933 was labeled as "case: hard titanium, surface treatment: DLC".

So back then they only considered the IP plating and DLC coating a surface treatment, while they considered the hardened titanium just a case material. These days they list MRK watches as "case: Super Titanium, surface treatement: Duratect MRK".

Now the mystery remains how they dope the titanium carbide, which is black, to make it silver/'white'.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Also there is something interesting happening in the Japanese Promaster Sky collection. They offer several new models only in stainless steel, while these same watches are offered in Super Titanium/Duratect TIC in Europe.

My theory is they have limited capacity for MRK-ing them, so they'd rather just not do titanium at all if it can't be MRK, though some Promaster Land models do come in Duratect TIC.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> So I was browsing the 2007 Japanese Citizen website to see if my grail watches are indeed MRK, and I noticed that in the specifications they were listed as "case: hard titanium", and it was only that blue symbol with the letters MRK in it that denoted it was an MRK watch. Non-MRK titanium watches were labeled as "surface treatment: white IP plating" with the blue symbol with the letters TIC in it. The PMP56-2933 was labeled as "case: hard titanium, surface treatment: DLC".
> 
> So back then they only considered the IP plating and DLC coating a surface treatment, while they considered the hardened titanium just a case material. These days they list MRK watches as "case: Super Titanium, surface treatement: Duratect MRK".
> 
> Now the mystery remains how they dope the titanium carbide, which is black, to make it silver/'white'.





CitizenPromaster said:


> Also there is something interesting happening in the Japanese Promaster Sky collection. They offer several new models only in stainless steel, while these same watches are offered in Super Titanium/Duratect TIC in Europe.
> 
> My theory is they have limited capacity for MRK-ing them, so they'd rather just not do titanium at all if it can't be MRK, though some Promaster Land models do come in Duratect TIC.





CitizenPromaster said:


> Oh I can do my party trick again, 2007 Promaster Land Collection here we come!!!
> 
> On a side note, only the PMP56-2912 and PMP56-2911 are MRK (diffusion hardened titanium, rather than a titanium carbide coating)


On the subject of MRK, *here is an outstanding brief overview of related processes as well as some trends in titanium diffusion hardening.*








Images courtesy of T. L. Christiansen, M.S. Jellesen, M. A.J. Somers - "Future Trends in Gaseous Surface Hardening of Titanium and Titanium Alloys"

While this may not detail the _exact _proprietary process Citizen use for MRK (I believe I recall them referring to _both_ oxidation and nitriding in the MRK process), it's still quite relevant as a resource.

...and really, it's just cool stuff! :-!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Cool stuff indeed.

"An overview of existing surface hardening techniques applicable for titanium and titanium alloys with special emphasis on gaseous based processes is provided. New processes for gaseous surface hardening of titanium alloys and zirconium are presented. This entails low temperature oxidizing by chemically controlled partial pressures of oxygen resulting in deep and hard diffusion zones and the possibility for applying so-called mixed-interstitial phases for surface hardening. Mixed-interstitial phases (based on carbon, oxygen and nitrogen) can result in new intriguing microstructural features and properties in case-hardened titanium. Deep and very hard cases can be produced by these new techniques. Hardness values of metallic titanium of more than 1800 HV is possible by simultaneously dissolving three interstitial elements. Mixed-interstitial compounds based on oxygen and carbon can lead to hardness values in the range of 2000 to 3000 HV."

Well I guess a mixed-interstitial compound based on oxygen and nitrogen like Citizen uses, results in their claimed hardness value of 1300 ~ 1500 Hv for Duratect MRK.

I have my MRK PMV65-2271 for sale locally though. The U680 is an amazing caliber, but pointless for me since I don't travel anymore, and aesthetically it doesn't really tickle my fancy, and some of my grail watches (discontinued Promaster Pilots with purely analogue dials) are still out there...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

> The color difference between the 'Super Titanium' on my very similar AS4050-51E and the Duratect MRK on this PMV65-2271 is very subtle. The difference is that light reflects whitish on the non-MRK titanium, and it reflects yellowish/bronzish on the MRK titanium. The picture doesn't really show it, though it's equally subtle with the naked eye.





> Also I tried to take a picture in the morning light with the Super Titanium (Duratect TIC) and Duratect MRK next to eachother, but it is hard to capture the color difference, though the MRK titanium looks noticeably more yellowish/bronzish, glare wise, as I mentioned before. You will just have to take my word for it


So I was staring at my Duratect TIC and Duratect MRK watches some more, in direct sunlight, and while the color difference is pretty minimal, the major difference is the reflectivity. I'd say the hardened, uncoated titanium called Duratect MRK has about 25% the reflectivity of the titanium carbide coated titanium called Duratect TIC. That means that when you 'see the sun' refected in the Duratect TIC at some angles it can almost blind you, while that is never the case for the Duratect MRK, it is oddly unreflective. Logically you would expect the Duratect MRK to get warmer (it must absorb the light if it doesn't reflect it) and that is indeed notably the case.

I'm sure there are scientific reasons for this, but let's just say: if you like shiny things, Duratect TIC/Super Titanium is your thing!


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

CitizenPromaster said:


> So I was staring at my Duratect TIC and Duratect MRK watches some more, in direct sunlight, and while the color difference is pretty minimal, the major difference is the reflectivity. I'd say the hardened, uncoated titanium called Duratect MRK has about 25% the reflectivity of the titanium carbide coated titanium called Duratect TIC. That means that when you 'see the sun' refected in the Duratect TIC at some angles it can almost blind you, while that is never the case for the Duratect MRK, it is oddly unreflective. Logically you would expect the Duratect MRK to get warmer (it must absorb the light if it doesn't reflect it) and that is indeed notably the case.
> 
> I'm sure there are scientific reasons for this, but let's just say: if you like shiny things, Duratect TIC/Super Titanium is your thing!


This is consistent w/Citizen's stated use of Duratect TIC in its platinum, gold, pink, & sakura pink variations, which is to create a bright surface. Similar to 1 of the reasons why Rolex uses 904L steel.


----------



## MAD777

CitizenPromaster said:


> So I was staring at my Duratect TIC and Duratect MRK watches...


I had to laugh out loud at this statement. Spoken nonchalantly like a true watchaholic. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

9 out of 10 times when I look at my watch, I don't notice what time it is, I just look at the details of the dial or how light catches the links of the bracelet or whatever.

By the way, when I say 'hardened, uncoated titanium Duratect MRK', that kind of makes it sound like bare titanium is intrinsically unreflective, but it's fair to assume that it's the 'mixed-interstitial compound based on oxygen and nitrogen' that is absorbing the light, you might even call it one of the 'new intriguing microstructural features and properties'.

The pre-Duratect titanium Citizens that I have, when viewed really really close-up under bright white light, have a sort of grainy, rainbowy appearance. As far as I can tell these watches had this 'Glass Multi-layer Coating' (GMC, on which I haven't found any additional information yet), and it is likely thin-film interference causing this pixelated mother of pearl effect. I really like it actually.

Here is a fun little article about mother of pearl, thin-film interference and lustre/shinyness.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> My pleasure guys.
> 
> But the plot thickens. Either Citizen is becoming more sneaky or more generous.
> 
> Recently they released a new Promaster Sky GPS. To my surprise they use the same model number for Japan and EU, they normally don't do that. But the only differences I can find on the pictures is for Japan the dial says MADE IN JAPAN F900-S145398 Y and the EU version says JAPAN MOV'T-F900-S146017 TY (a different case number and therefor possibly a different case material). The JDM CC9020-54E is marketed as Duratect MRK, though AFAIK the caseback only says Satellite Wave. I see no indication that the EU CC9020-54E is also MRK, they just list it as titanium. Would they really go through the trouble of making two versions and changing only the marking on the dial?????
> In the past they've saved the best for the domestic market. As reported, often the JDM Promasters, besides being Duratect MRK, also get a micro-adjustable clasp. The JDM version of this watch doesn't even have that, so there's even less obvious difference.
> 
> I have noticed in Japan the CC9020-54E is listed at 230,000 yen excl. tax = 2,020 EUR. Here in Holland, including 21% tax it is listed as 1,595 EUR. I can't explain the difference unless the EU watch is non-MRK (less production cost).
> Amazon.co.jp discounts it from 248,400 (incl. 8% tax) with -20% to 198,700 yen = 1,745 euro, still a significant difference.
> Extra cost for the DLC version CC9025-51E is 15,000 yen is 132 EUR (excl. tax). In EU the premium is 100 EUR (incl. tax) for the CC9025-51E.
> 
> My gut is telling me Citizen is just being more sneaky about their 'better' JDM Promasters. Maybe they have streamlined the model numbers to throw us off the trail?
> 
> I fear the EU 'Japan Mov't' is non-MRK. Because the alternative conclusion is that they are offering the Europeans MRK on a Promaster for the first time, AND at a lower price than to their Japanese customers...


So I saw that Rigel from Turkey posted pics of his new CC9020-54E, so I was curious which version he got, but to my surprise his dial says: MADE IN JAPAN F900-S147501 EY.



Rigel said:


> Newest addition to my collection, and my first Citizen: CC9020-54E..
> View attachment 14905199


Interestingly, I did notice recently that on the European website the CC9020-54E is listed as Duratect MRK these days, however the picture used there seems to say JAPAN MOV'T-F900-S146017 EY on the dial (maybe I made a mistake when I said S146017 TY?), and the list price is still 1.595 EUR, so I don't know what to make of the claim that it is now Duratect MRK. I did notice however that Citizen Japan has discontinued this watch, so maybe they are selling off remaining Duratect MRK stock outside of Japan? But if that is the case, why does Rigels example say MADE IN JAPAN F900-S147501 EY rather than MADE IN JAPAN F900-S145398 Y? Did that number from the official Citizen photo even make it into production?
An Australian example sold on WUS also seems to say MADE IN JAPAN F900-S147501 EY like Rigel's one (the picture is not 100% clear), and an actual watch for sale in Czech Republic currently, sourced from Citizen Europe, also says MADE IN JAPAN F900-S147501 EY, so I guess that's how they are selling them these days, but are they MRK? I hope so.

Interestingly, the stainless steel version with green accents, the CC9030-51E, says JAPAN MOV'T-F900-S146017 EY, so...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Just came across a thread about the differences between the PMV65-2271 and the JY8020-52E , which were also discussed in this thread, and a guy named Stormvision, who unfortunately hasn't logged in since shortly after I started this thread, actually figured the whole Duratect thing out as early as 2013, though I don't think many people noticed since it was hidden away in a thread in the Seiko forum after the Seiko/Citizen split, hence why I never saw it, until it came up in a google search I did today.



Stormvision said:


> Ti+IP is Duratect. But *Duratect *technology is not only Ti+IP, since it includes others hardening techniques, as you can see in the diagram below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Copyright Citizenmania.it)
> 
> For a better understanding of the various techniques, you can see this official document from Citizen.jp on Duratect technology (translation by Google).
> 
> From the document appears that Citizen in the Promaster line uses all the aforementioned hardening techniques, depending on the model. According to Citizen.jp official website, the model PMV65-2271 has the *Duratect MRK coating* (1400 vickers) wich means Gas hardening.
> 
> The European model JY8020-52E has the *Duratect Ti+IP* according to Citizen.it official website, precisely the *TiCC coating* (1200 vickers) wich is just a type of Ti+IP hardening.


There was a Dutch Citizen reseller in that thread (also inactive now) with a lot of hands-on experience with European and JDM watches, who got very confused about all the terminology before Stormvision came along, but he did notice MRK's superiority.



simons said:


> Although I dont have any factsheet to back up what I will say, I can say that I have many years of experience as a Citizen reseller.
> 
> I have never seen a duratect coating on ANY of the Citizen watches sold outside of Japan. None of the European nor USA models have this coating.
> 
> The duratect coating is much harder than the TiCC coating, even though your sheet says differently on the vickers scale. We tried to polish a duratect coated watch, and it is impossible! We used a dremel tool with sandpaper tip to ty on a titanium watchband link and got many sparks when grinding, but we could easily polish and grind down the European titanium bracelet link.
> 
> I would compare it as Mineral crystal to Sapphire.
> 
> Secondly, the titanium Duratect watches are a tiny bit darker than the European TiCC.
> 
> BTW, Citizen also applies the Duratect on stainless steel, and has anyone seen a Stainless steel coated european watch?
> 
> Hope my experience can help some of you!


And then Stormvision replied:



Stormvision said:


> You are speaking of Duratect referring only to *Duratect MRK*, the coating used for Japanese models, with the imprinted Duratect brand.
> 
> But according to the documents above, Citizen calls *Duratect *the hardening process, whatever the technique used (*Ti+IP*, *MRK*, etc.) so technically speaking the European models also have a Duratect coating (*TiCC*), despite the fact that the brand Duratect is not imprinted on the watch case (probably they use that only for the best of their Duratect coatings, which is precisely the MRK, to differentiate it from the others).
> 
> I never tried the difference in real life, and I don't know the precise relationship between the increase of the vickers and the effective increasing of hardness, however the document says that the *Duratect TiCC* is typically between 1000-1200 vickers and the *Duratect MRK* is typically between 1300-1500 vickers. It is probably enough to sense the difference in real world.
> 
> In your experience, the *Duratect MRK* is much better than the *TiCC*, when it comes to scratch resistance? It is worth to buy the Japanese model, maybe with an higher price tag? I'm considering buying one in the future


That thread discussed the differences between the PMV and JY at length, like the micro-adjust clasp, but no one noticed there is a difference in the diamond pattern on the bezel, so hooray for me


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Just came across a thread about the differences between the PMV65-2271 and the JY8020-52E as discussed before, and a guy named Stormvision, who unfortunately hasn't logged in since shortly after I started this thread, actually figured the whole thing out!


Cool find, it's good to centralize previous threads here that cover the same topic.



CitizenPromaster said:


> [...] but no one noticed there is a difference in the diamond pattern on the *bezel*, so hooray for me


Did someone say... bezel? You were wondering when I'd post photos of my new PMV65-2271, and I thought since there are already so many photos of it available taken with standard lenses, why not have some fun?

Here's a closer look at the bezel of the *PMV65-2271*

*200x*








-

*500x*








-

*1000x*








-

We do start to see some interesting things upon closer inspection, though we also see the shallow depth of field and grime inherent when viewing something that's not a prepared (ground, diamond polished, and cleaned) sample...

...and since you mentioned



CitizenPromaster said:


> [...] the micro-adjust _*clasp*_ [...]


...here's a bonus!

*500x*








It's fun to see the brushed surface in such intimate detail! I might take some comparison shots of an untreated stainless steel clasp, aluminum bezel, or other things in the future if I can possibly wrench this overly comfortable watch off my wrist for a day during the week! ;-)

Edit - 200th post in the thread! Your titanium/Duratect thread has come a long way CitizenPromaster, thanks for starting this discussion! :-!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The first pictures are from the polished part of the bezel, right?

200th post, good for you! Yes, it's a fun thread, for us anyway! ^_^


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> The first pictures are from the polished part of the bezel, right?


Yes, the first 3 photos are from the top facing polished section of the bezel. Interesting to see how imperfect the "polished" surface is, eh?

The 4th photo was taken on the main outside section of the clasp.



CitizenPromaster said:


> 200th post, good for you! Yes, it's a fun thread, for us anyway! ^_^


#200 in the thread, to be clear. I'm still not quite at 200 posts myself, but who's counting? :-d


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> #200 in the thread, to be clear. I'm still not quite at 200 posts myself, but who's counting? :-d


I can show you the future!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Yes, the first 3 photos are from the top facing polished section of the bezel. Interesting to see how imperfect the "polished" surface is, eh?


Obviously there is something wrong with your camera or lens, Citizen DOES NOT make "imperfect" polished surfaces or "imperfect" anything


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Obviously there is something wrong with your camera or lens, Citizen DOES NOT make "imperfect" polished surfaces or "imperfect" anything


I will make it a point to notify Nikon Industrial Metrology that a discrepancy has been found in their inverted metallurgical microscopes showing extreme optical defects when viewing a calibrated sample perfect to the molecular level. /s :roll: :-d


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> *b e z e l*










*200x (desaturated)*

-

Here's a couple of looks at the case side at 200x and 1000x:








*200x*








*1000x*

The case side seems not too different from the clasp, which I see as a credit to the quality of their respective surface finishes.

-

And finally, a fun look at the crown at 25x, because we can:








*25x*

Of note is what could be an "eggshell" effect (highly technical term, I assure you) near the bottom left of the crown's edge. It looks like a crack, but upon close inspection was not deep at all. Unfortunately due to its inherent protrusion the crown doesn't lend itself well to higher magnification viewing. There's a simple fix for that, but I wouldn't feel right mounting the watch in bakelite during our honeymoon :-d


----------



## CitizenPromaster

So riddle me this, if the picture is 0.01 mm, what is making the 0.0001 mm wide grooves during the brushing?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

> I never tried the difference in real life, and I don't know the precise relationship between the increase of the vickers and the effective increasing of hardness, however the document says that the Duratect TiCC is typically between 1000-1200 vickers and the Duratect MRK is typically between 1300-1500 vickers. It is probably enough to sense the difference in real world.


So I had a thought when reading this: the higher up the Vickers scale you get, the less things there are left in the world that are even harder and thus able to scratch the material with xxxx Hv. Maybe a difference of 300 Hv seems little, but there are probably far fewer common materials with 1200 Hv that can scratch Duratect TIC, than there are common materials with 1500 Hv that can scratch Duratect MRK, which would explain why many people on WUS say they hardly get scratches on their Duratect MRK watch.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> So riddle me this, if the picture is 0.01 mm, what is making the 0.0001 mm wide grooves during the brushing?


Likely a ceramic fiber brush, similar to the examples detailed below, referenced paper linked *here* -








_Image courtesy of ROUGHNESS OF METAL SURFACE AFTER FINISHING USING CERAMIC BRUSH TOOLS, T. Salacinski, T. Chmielewski, M. Winiarski, R. Cacko, R. Świercz_

-

On the note of scale, referencing my image below at 1000x zoom of the surface of the MRK treated Ti case - the scale line is .01mm or *10µm*. For some context, the diameter of a human red blood cell is about *8µm*.









-



CitizenPromaster said:


> So I had a thought when reading this: the higher up the Vickers scale you get, the less things there are left in the world that are even harder and thus able to scratch the material with xxxx Hv. Maybe a difference of 300 Hv seems little, but there are probably far fewer common materials with 1200 Hv that can scratch Duratect TIC, than there are common materials with 1500 Hv that can scratch Duratect MRK, which would explain why many people on WUS say they hardly get scratches on their Duratect MRK watch.


Your thoughts on this matter mirror mine exactly. One can easily find everyday hazards that exceed 1000Hv, but surpassing the 1400 Hv that might be able to readily bring harm to an MRK watch would be a challenge. Like a previous post mentioned, ceramic cookware would be the only thing that comes to mind that could have a chance at scratching MRK treated titanium.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have a theory by the way, that all Sky watches (or at least their cases and bracelets) were made in two batches.
> The first batch being the ones with the Citizen/Eco-Drive/Promaster caseback, like my AS4050-51E and the PMP56-2931, around 2008-2011.
> The second batch being the ones with the Citizen/Eco-Drive caseback, like the other Promaster Sky watches, from around 2011-2013.
> I have no real hard evidence, but the PMV65-2271 I have only seen with serial numbers beginning with 1 or 3. I think they made them sort of clustered and just sold stock after that.
> 
> Citizen Japan doesn't sell the new Sky CB5850-80E with E660 I posted earlier. I think they ran out of fancy casebacks but still had some non-MRK cases left, or maybe they made another batch of cases, but I doubt it, because Japan still only has the old Sky Pilot models with MRK, and they don't bother with the non-MRK. But they did treat themselves to a brand new MRK diver...
> 
> Anyway, this is all speculation, but HorologicOptic can tell you why my theory is plausible from a titanium point of view.


No one cares, but let me state anyway that my theory is wrong. Probably they produce the cases in batches, but the recent purchase by HorologicOptic proves Citizen assembled the PMV65-2271 at least as recently as 2018.

This watch has now been on sale for 10 years, as it was launched in 2010. So let's pay it a little tribute with a very nice video, showing it in all its splendor.






Yeah, I don't think I will sell it after all... I wanted to replace it with a discontinued JDM Promaster Pilot, but while those have my preferred bracelet, this has the nicest bezel checkering.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Pyramids catching light (iPhone 5 is not great at taking close-ups)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

> I did find another difference between the EU and JDM Promaster Sky watches that have the checkered bezel, like the Pilot Chrono and the Super Pilot, that I never noticed in pictures. The EU bezel diamond pattern has less 'resolution', let's call it four-ish dots diagonally compared to the finer five-ish dots diagonally.
> Now that I've told you, you will clearly see it.
> JY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PMV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here the EU Pilot Chrono (AS4050-51E) vs the JDM equivalent (PMP56-2931)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe Citizen even makes the bezel checkering better on the JDM watches!


So more shocking developments in #bezelgate. While it still holds true that Citizen puts more 'resolution' into the JDM bezels, they actually did change the bezels for both the EU and JDM market.

That very crispy, pointy bezel on my PMV65-2271, it turns out that was probably only done in 2010 and 2011. After that, they made a more rounded version, which they continue to use.

Here is the bezel from HorologicOptic's 2018 PMV65-2271 (photo credit and 500 Promaster points go to him), still the fine JDM resolution, but more rounded and probably also polished.









Here is the bezel from the recently released EU Chrono Pilot E660, the CB5850-80E:









The surface treatments are applied after this sort of machining, otherwise the titanium would be much too hard.


----------



## GaryK30

My Promaster Sky BY0080-57E had a knurled bezel as well. Unfortunately, it can't be seen that well from this angle.


----------



## HorologicOptic

Great sleuthing, CitizenPromaster, and thanks for the Promaster Points™. Glad I could help shed light on #bezelgate.

For now, here is the first proper non-micro shot of my PMV65-2271. It doesn't feature the bezel prominently, so we can focus on the other details of this beautiful watch and prevent hyperventilation -

.









.

Hope this helps! :-d


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I tried to take a proper picture like HorologicOptic's, with my 'normal' digital camera, but it came out even worse than my iPhone photo.

I know why though, I've been staring at these macro shots for so long, I forgot how small scale it actually is!
I can hardly tell the shape of the checkering with the naked eye, and my eyesight is completely fine by the way.

@GaryK30: Indeed, those two watches are identical twins except for their caliber.

Here's a few BY0080-57E's, and after this I'll drop the bezel checkering thing, I promiss lol


















This BY looks slightly different, maybe wear of tools etc.










And another:










And one final one:


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today I'm going to bore you with some speculation on the future of Duratect. I still cannot confirm if the CC9020-54E is now MRK in Europe, but I don't think it will be on sale much longer anyway.

For the 2020 Promaster top models there is a new trend, and that is one model for all of the world, which means more markets get access to Duratect MRK.

I'm talking specifically about the 1000m diver BN7020-09E and the F990 Pilot CC7014-82E. Both are MRK, which is nice since they are about 2 grand MSRP.
However, as on the CC9020-54E, the micro-adjust clasp has been dropped on the CC7014-82E.

Some of the 'lesser' Promaster models, at around 60,000/65,000 yen, which are available in Duratect TIC in Europe, are only available in stainless steel in Japan. Others are simply Duratect TIC. 
My guess is the limited MRK capacity made them sacrifice some of the domestic production for worldwide production.
For example, the new JDM only 200m diver AS7141-60E does get Duratect MRK, but this watch costs about 1 grand, so again different territory.

Weirdly enough the AS7141-60E is even listed as having both surface treatments: 'Duratect titaniumcarbide - Duratect MRK', but they don't specify which part is what.
The BN7020-09E is even more confusing, listed as 'Duratect titaniumcarbide - DLC - MRK - MRK+DLC', again without specifying which part is what.

The European website really messed that up, stating "For the BN7020-09E, the Super Titanium Duratect DLC & MRK IP technology was used to achieve maximum robustness and comfort."
If you have been paying attention in this thread, you know that DLC and MRK are NOT ion-plating technology.

So my prediction, worldwide markets will increasingly be able to get Duratect MRK watches without buying from Japan, but not for less than a grand!

And just to recap:


----------



## CitizenPromaster

> and after this I'll drop the bezel checkering thing, I promiss lol


Well I have to break my promiss, guys, I did not have the full picture yet, so I have to revisit #BezelGate, which is actually turning into #JapanMov'tGate!

So here is my AS4050-51E, the titanium Chrono Pilot, purchased by me in July 2008 in Holland, though sourced by the seller from Italy, and produced in April 2008.









You can see the VERY crude knurling. I thought it just stayed like this, but yesterday I saw pictures of several more recently produced AS4050-51E's.









Look, it is actually the same knurling as the JY8020-52E and the same or very similar to the recently released successor of the AS, the CB5850-80E as showed earlier.
Below is the JY, the alignment of the pattern can vary from watch to watch, but the lines per inch are the same.









But then I started looking at the casebacks.









Where my AS (above) has a short serial number, the newer AS '2.0' (below) has the long version serial number, but... :-O









The newer AS also says JAPAN MOV'T, where my early AS does not.









And the JY also has a long serial number like the AS '2.0' and also says JAPAN MOV'T, this possibly means they were not produced/cased in Japan, while the early AS possibly still was?

There is also a rare Duratect TIC version of the BY0080-57E, which is the BY0081-54E. That has the same knurling and caseback features as the AS '2.0' and JY.























I know we touched on the MADE IN JAPAN vs JAPAN MOV'T thing before, and it remains very obscure, but something definitely changed in the tooling and engraving for the AS4050-51E, probably simultaneously with the launch of the JY8020-52E and the BY0081-54E, which I think was in 2012.

On a side note, the CB5850-80E also says JAPAN MOV'T on its non-stamped, fully engraved/laser etched caseback. So did the retail laws change, or the place of production, or [insert theory]?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Time to shatter some illusions, my own included. I and others kind of assumed that if your JDM Promaster watch says Duratect on the caseback, it is Duratect MRK.

That is incorrect. The PMD56-2951 and the beloved PMD-2952 very prominently say Duratect on the case back...










However they are listed as 'Surface treament: Duratect titanium carbide', with the TIC symbol.

Back in 2007 they were also listed with the TIC symbol, but the marketing department called it 'Surface treatment: White IP plating'.
(White as opposed to black, which is the 'natural' color of titanium carbide, or maybe white as in bright, whatever.)

So buyer beware


----------



## GaryK30

Here's a new article from ABTW.

*Citizen Of Japan Aims For Space As It Celebrates 50 Years Of Industry-Leading Titanium Watches*

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/citize...0-years-of-industry-leading-titanium-watches/


----------



## CitizenPromaster

GaryK30 said:


> Here's a new article from ABTW.
> 
> *Citizen Of Japan Aims For Space As It Celebrates 50 Years Of Industry-Leading Titanium Watches*
> 
> https://www.ablogtowatch.com/citize...0-years-of-industry-leading-titanium-watches/


Lol that marketing blabber raises so many questions that I hope people find this thread to clear up their confusion.
I am also laughing at the suggestion that 'Super Titanium' is going to the moon. Shiny lunar rovers, yay!

Also, that particular PMP56-2933 definitely has not been daily worn for 10 years...
It's an impressive combo DLC+MRK, but that watch has been babied, as this 2 to 3 year daily worn example shows:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/ultimate-skyhawk-nighthawk-pmp56-2933-retrospect-679839.html

Nice of Citizen to celebrate 50 years of titanum technology though! I have done my part, you are welcome Citizen!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Here's a recent score, a PMD56-2973. I believe it's MRK with a DLC bezel. Love the dark color.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, the serial number starts with a 7. I think these were released in 2009, so does that imply this is from 2017?


Ziptie, you can't just tell us you scored one of the rarest Citizen Promaster watches, which is both MRK and DLC (the second model ever after the PMP56-2933), and leave it at that!
Where did you find it? Were you searching for it or did you stumble across it? How are you liking it? What are your plans for it?
You know actual Japanese fighter pilots wore these? I read that on a watch forum somewhere. A guy met a JPN fighter pilot at a US airbase who was wearing one of this trio.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

What is better than a Citizen watch made from titanium?
A Citizen watch made from titanium that has the word TITANIUM stamped into the titanium so that you know the watch is made from titanium!
Porsche Design eat your heart out


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> Ziptie, you can't just tell us you scored one of the rarest Citizen Promaster watches, which is both MRK and DLC (the second model ever after the PMV65-2933), and leave it at that!
> Where did you find it? Were you searching for it or did you stumble across it? How are you liking it? What are your plans for it?
> You know actual Japanese fighter pilots wore these? I read that on a watch forum somewhere. A guy met a JPN fighter pilot at a US airbase who was wearing one of this trio.


Ha, thanks for your interest! A friend started talking about slide rules recently, and I told her that Citizen (and a few lesser brands) made slide rule pilot's watches. I thought about getting one (as a math nerd I learned how to use a slide rule as a kid). I considered getting a Nighthawk, though I prefer titanium, and I always did like the asymmetry of this trio. I searched for all the model numbers for a reasonably priced offering, and found a seller in Singapore on a site called Carousell. They don't serve the US, but I was able to message him and work out a deal. He had all of the original box, papers, and links. Now I wear it when I'm feeling like wearing something chunky. It's on my short list of long-term keepers, along with my PMD56-2951, my green Attesa CB0120, and the blue face PMD56-2864.


----------



## yankeexpress




----------



## HorologicOptic

Since we're on a bit of a throwback kick...

I was interested in seeing my MRK Ti watch next to an older brother to compare their tones and reflectivity. I found that under neutral lighting the surfaces differ less than one might initially expect, though we do still see the characteristic "champagne" tone to the older Ti.

-









-









...that's not 2008! ;-)

They sure don't make 'em like they used to for the NA market.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Ha, thanks for your interest! A friend started talking about slide rules recently, and I told her that Citizen (and a few lesser brands) made slide rule pilot's watches. I thought about getting one (as a math nerd I learned how to use a slide rule as a kid). I considered getting a Nighthawk, though I prefer titanium, and I always did like the asymmetry of this trio. I searched for all the model numbers for a reasonably priced offering, and found a seller in Singapore on a site called Carousell. They don't serve the US, but I was able to message him and work out a deal. He had all of the original box, papers, and links. Now I wear it when I'm feeling like wearing something chunky. It's on my short list of long-term keepers, along with my PMD56-2951, my green Attesa CB0120, and the blue face PMD56-2864.


Cool stuff, Ziptie. It looks nearly mint, I'd definitely hold on to it!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Double post by the silly software, I'll make it into a reply to HorologicOptic:

I don't really see the champagne color on your old watch, the newer one actually looks more champagne to my eye in this picture. Your Solar-Tech looks like this to my eye:








Obviously yours is darker, but I don't see a yellow/bronze element in it, which is visible in the glare of the MRK watch.

But it's hard to compare apples to oranges and pears and banana's in this case.

As I showed earlier the difference between the old titanium on that Attesa I have, and the ion-plated TIC on my Chrono Pilot is super obvious, it's 'white' plating after all.

But when I posted that I had barely realised that all my old Citizens are not even bare titanium, but this mysterious GMC (like your Solar-Tech likely is). I don't even know what brands like Porsche Design used on their 80s/90s titanium watches, if anything? So this 'champagne color' from the early days, on watches and camera's, was it bare titanium with a natural titanium oxide layer, or did they also use something?

And then your PMV is neither bare titanium, neither GMC, neither TIC, but hardened/MRK, with all kinds of nitrogen and oxygen in the top layer. And I am surprised how different that can look in different pictures and different lighting. Sometimes it looks like TIC, sometimes it looks much darker.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Here is a titanium money/card clip that I’ve carried around for 10 years or so (I don’t carry a wallet, nor cash). In the background how the seller shows it on their website (still in business) and the real thing, now that’s champagne!  They never mention any surface treatments on their website, so likely bare titanium. (Btw, the shabby card is to 'protect' the other cards in the stack.)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Some color samples, sampling the bronziest/brownest part I can find in the surface, that confirm what my eye was saying 
I've had a titanium obsession for over a decade, you will have to forgive me for getting nitpicky.









Note 1, I didn't sample the orange gunk near the hinges on the back of the Solar-Tech watch 

Note 2, you can find and sample areas with much less 'bronze' on the MRK watch, almost identical to the color of the Solar-Tech watch, but the sample I picked is very representive of the bronze glare I reported on in earlier posts when I looked at the MRK next to the TIC. That warmer tone is undeniably in there, as is shown clearly here by the sample.

Note 3, I think calling it champagne is a stretch, but since champagne is a light version of bronze/brown/beige, I get the sentiment. So let's sample the watches where one was called 'champagne'.









I wouldn't know what to call the color on the left, but I think it's obvious that grey/gray titanium used to look warmer (bronze tones), and now with coatings that are supposed to mimic stainless steel, it looks cooler (blue tones).

Here you can see the TIC and even the old GMC are towards the blue spectrum.









Above picture is with daylight. Indoors, under yellow artificial light, the TIC will logically lose the blue tones, but still the difference is clear with MRK, as seen in the picture below.









Duratect MRK comes a lot closer to untreated titanium in color, under most light conditions.
Which makes sense, as untreated titanium has a Ti + O2 surface and MRK has a Ti + O2 + N surface.
So you get all the warm titanium goodness plus 1300-1500 Hv hardness!
Now I will go ice my MRK boner before I poke someone's eye out.  This is turning into Fifty Shades of Grey *wink wink*


----------



## Ziptie

One thought on color, a lot of titanium bicycles have that champagne color, or are a darker gray than aluminum or steel. They tend to be alloys, often 3Al/2.5V, thought there are others. Occasionally some models are polished, which lends a brighter, more silvery look. If untreated the champagne color is a dead giveaway for a ti frame.


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## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Some color samples, sampling the bronziest/brownest part I can find in the surface, that confirm what my eye was saying
> I've had a titanium obsession for over a decade, you will have to forgive me for getting nitpicky.


I definitely welcome your nit picking, since unless I'm mistaken that's what we're all here for! At the same time, you have to expect a little in return. ;-)

I appreciate your apples to apples style of comparison, though unfortunately these photos are not all apples, so to speak. I produced my photos under controlled studio conditions using multiple flashes that provide a consistent color temperature, a grey card for color reference, and an actively color calibrated monitor for editing. While there is a good chance that the official photos of those Porsche Design watches were given similar considerations, I have seen many marketing photos play with the colors to look better in marketing materials (think warm color temperature for a fine bourbon ad photo, cool color temp for a down "explorer" jacket ad, etc.) and watches are no exception. The personal photos of the other models look to have been taken on a modern phone camera. These days, phone cameras are known not only for their oversharpening, but also their extreme bias towards cooler color temperatures. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be critical for these purposes.

While I could go on ad nauseam, my main point is that before any legitimate color comparison can be made one must control many factors that aren't as easy to nail down as one might be led to believe.

That being said, I still think your comparison is probably in the direction of the result a controlled observation would produce. Good work! :-!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Bla bla bla.
> 
> TLDR.
> 
> Latin words, bla, bla.
> 
> That being said, I still think your comparison is probably in the direction of the result a controlled observation would produce. Good work! :-!


Haha just kidding. I agree it is hard to compare different photos with eachother, but when two watches are photographed next to eachother under the same conditions with the same lousy camera, the differences are still quite obvious.

In defense of my 'pure' titanium money clip, that was taken with a camera phone in daylight, and even under those circumstances it came out the least blue/most champagne looking of all!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Well I guess if you mix grey with champagne you do sort of end up with the typical titanium color.
I don't have software to mix colors or read actual RGB values though, I'm just using MS Paint :-D











CitizenPromaster said:


> Also I tried to take a picture in the morning light with the Super Titanium (Duratect TIC) and Duratect MRK next to eachother, but it is hard to capture the color difference, though the MRK titanium looks noticeably more yellowish/bronzish, glare wise, as I mentioned before. You will just have to take my word for it


[OCD]When I said bronze, in my mind I was picturing it more toward gold than copper, hence the wording 'yellowish/bronzish', but I will concede champagne is a more correct word for the tone I was seeing, since champagne is more yellow than typical bronze, as shown above.[/OCD]


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## CitizenPromaster

Hello sir, have you heard the good news? Duratect MRK is our lord and savior.


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## drunken-gmt-master

CitizenPromaster said:


> Well I guess if you mix grey with champagne you do sort of end up with the typical titanium color.
> I don't have software to mix colors or read actual RGB values though, I'm just using MS Paint :-D
> 
> View attachment 14942739


As an amateur photographer, I totally understand your & HorologicOptic's prior posts (#229 & #231) re: color temperature (1 reason to stick to black & white when possible!).

As to the genesis of "champagne" as a description of the color of titanium, I have no idea, but per my earlier post, it was widely used in the photo world to refer to the finish on various "luxury" cameras in the 1980s & 1990s like the Nikon F3T (Nikon F3T - Index page), Nikon 35ti (https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Nikon_35Ti) & the Kyocera Contax G1 & G2 (https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Contax_G). I can't recall if "champagne" was actually used in English language marketing materials at the time, but retailers certainly used the term, along w/just "titanium".


----------



## CitizenPromaster

drunken-gmt-master said:


> As an amateur photographer, I totally understand your & HorologicOptic's prior posts (#229 & #231) re: color temperature (1 reason to stick to black & white when possible!).
> 
> As to the genesis of "champagne" as a description of the color of titanium, I have no idea, but per my earlier post, it was widely used in the photo world to refer to the finish on various "luxury" cameras in the 1980s & 1990s like the Nikon F3T (Nikon F3T - Index page), Nikon 35ti (https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Nikon_35Ti) & the Kyocera Contax G1 & G2 (https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Contax_G). I can't recall if "champagne" was actually used in English language marketing materials at the time, but retailers certainly used the term, along w/just "titanium".


As you can read in my edited post, I have decided for myself that 'champagne' is a pretty good term actually to describe the grey tone, since champagne is pretty yellowish, more so than typical bronze, though the bronze I was thinking of is actually what people have been calling champagne. To drive my point home _ad nauseam_:


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## CitizenPromaster

Okay, HorologicOptic, with your fancy photo studio and your fancy microscope 



















Time to flex my 5 euro (!!!!) hacking skills 

2008 AS4050-51E bezel









2011 PMV65-2271 bezel









And the pièce de résistance, done on my kitchen table!


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Okay, HorologicOptic, with your fancy photo studio and your fancy microscope
> 
> Time to flex my 5 euro (!!!!) hacking skills
> 
> And the pièce de résistance, done on my kitchen table!
> 
> View attachment 14943261


Bravo! All the imaging equipment in the world is useless if one is thousands of miles away from their subject (and without line of sight ;-) )

This macro image of your PMV bezel could shed some light on what I expected might be one reason Citizen switched away from such sharp pyramids - difficulties with quality control. Note the lack of consistency across the knurling, with each "pyramid" cap being of a different surface area even in this small sample. No doubt this example is passing by reasonable QC standards, but then one begins to wonder what we're not seeing. Such inconsistency makes me ponder about high scrap rates.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Yes there are visible differences, but these are truly unobservable with the naked eye, the top square is probably less than 0.1 mm by 0.1 mm, so the differences between them are even smaller.
Maybe I misunderstand you, but if they could achieve this lack of consistency consistently, I think they'd be very happy with this result, but the cost of the tools are probably much higher, and the duration that these tools remain sharp enough much shorter, for this type of knurling, than for the knurling adopted since 2012. But maybe that's what you're saying?
So what I'm saying is, I don't think maintaining this quality is difficult, but simply too costly. What do you think?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Also, as a complete amateur, I am still not ruling out these pyramids were made by filing rather than knurling. I see horizontal grooves across the slopes, and the caps look kind of jagged, rather than a miniature version of being rolled over like on the AS bezel. Unfortunately I can't take even more detailed pictures without spending lots of cash or approaching people (that I don't know) with proper equipment, but I see no evidence against filing at this level.


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## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Yes there are visible differences, but these are truly unobservable with the naked eye, the top square is probably less than 0.1 mm by 0.1 mm, so the differences between them are even smaller.
> Maybe I misunderstand you, but if they could achieve this lack of consistency consistently, I think they'd be very happy with this result, but the cost of the tools are probably much higher, and the duration that these tools remain sharp enough much shorter, for this type of knurling, than for the knurling adopted since 2012. But maybe that's what you're saying?
> So what I'm saying is, I don't think maintaining this quality is difficult, but simply too costly. What do you think?


I edited down my original post, which originally read:



HorologicOptic said:


> [...] difficulties *(read: costs)* with quality control.


Cost of quality is a primary concern in manufacturing, especially with high volume automated work.



CitizenPromaster said:


> Also, as a complete amateur, I am still not ruling out these pyramids were made by filing rather than knurling. I see horizontal grooves across the slopes, and the caps look kind of jagged, rather than a miniature version of being rolled over like on the AS bezel. [...] I see no evidence against filing at this level.


This is almost certainly knurling. Filing would really not likely be used in this context due to cost and impracticability. See below - I took a photo of the knurling on my Bergeon spring bar tool to show that even with rougher tooling you can make clean edges using cut knurling. Here is a great resource to explain cut knurling vs form knurling (on page 11).


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## CitizenPromaster

As you know, I don’t disagree with your reasoning, but I meant ‘I see no evidence’ literally, I see no visual signs for it not being filed, with my amateur knowledge and this crappy macro.

I say crappy macro, but I’m pretty impressed with the result considering the little money and time it took. This was a first attempt that took a few minutes. Maybe I can get it a little sharper, I’m gonna play with it some more.

Anyway, I should just e-mail Citizen Japan and ask them how they did it.


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## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Maybe I can get it a little sharper, I'm gonna play with it some more.
> 
> Anyway, I should just e-mail Citizen Japan and ask them how they did it.


I'm looking forward to the results of both these endeavors! :-!

---

In the meantime, here is an additional photo to reference the color differences in the two Ti surfaces - I made use of the late afternoon sun to "bring out" the colors, though as usual this is adjusted to a grey card and color accurate.


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## CitizenPromaster

Well it's hard to find any champagne tones in day light, no matter the time of day, but I've sampled the middle of the circles/ellipses, and I've chosen comparable areas on both watches, connected by the red lines.









If anyhing this shows the MRK is less reflective than the GMC, but it's hard to notice any extra yellow.

Where you tend to notice the yellow tone the most in daylight is in some parts of the glare, so these areas below. I have put in the color from my money clip as a 'reference titanium color'.









Don't mind the MRK being darker, I was aiming for color definition this time. The differences are quite minimal, but there seems to be more pink/red tones in the GMC.

So my theory is, MRK absorbs more blue, thus reflects white light as yellow. However, there is a limit to the amount of light the MRK (or any material) can absorb, and when there is so much incident light as outside in day light, the difference in reflected blue light versus other frequencies is too small to notice, as we are talking about very small differences to begin with, and you only notice the overall smaller reflectivity.

I was going to end it here, but it turns out I actually do have software that can tell me the RGB value, so to be continued.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ok, I will try do to some math (I only had basic math in high school)









First the daylight comparison, as I said, not much in it. If we relate the blue (and green) values to the red values, we get:

MRK 'grey' RGB 106,83,65 -> 100.00,78.30,61.32

GMC 'grey' RGB 121,92,74 -> 100.00,76.03,61.16

So you could say the GMC is marginally more red, or marginally less blue in daylight.

(If we unscientifically assume we can compare the light conditions and camera properties for the reference titanium color, we can say that, taking green relative to red into account, the MRK is more similar in color to untreated titanium -> Ref 'grey' RGB 100,82,62. It is missing less green than the GMC.)

Now for the studio comparison, that was more obviously different to the eye.







'

Ok, I don't want to gloat, but this is really satisfying to me. As a happy coincidence, both values for red are 122, and there is relatively speaking significantly less blue in MRK titanium, at least when selecting an area where the yellow glare is most apparent, as I did here. Again, in many areas they do look the same, but certain tones are simply 'missing' on the GMC watch.
(Unscientifically, the MRK is also VERY close overall to the untreated titanium color in RGB-value relative to red, though the GMC is spot on in its green value relative to red.)

To be complete, here are the values for my indoors picture under yellow light, TIC vs MRK.









The bottom 'brown' value for the TIC is a little contradictive and odd, I think I sampled that in the shadow/reflection on the bezel or the knurling, just to get something dark, so you might be looking at my hair? The top two values sampled on surfaces however clearly show significantly less blue relative to red in the MRK compared to the TIC. But considering how and where the picture was taken, let's take this one with a grain of salt.

Overall, I think there is enough RGB value based evidence to support my observations/theories that MRK is both 1) less reflective and 2) less blue/more yellow.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Overall, I think there is enough RGB value based evidence to support my observations/theories that MRK is both 1) less reflective and 2) less blue/more yellow.


While I remain skeptical of your methodology, I do appreciate the effort you've put in to determine the color differences between these surface finishes. :-!

I can say regarding reflectivity - more helpful than RGB values (since given different surfaces of identical reflectivity but slightly different composition we could still see an RGB value difference), simple visual observation reveals more brightness from the surface of the Solar Tech. This stands to reason, since as I understand it this era of Citizen Ti is treated with a glass surface coating of some sort. I'd be very interested to learn more about that, if you have more details.


----------



## Ziptie

Ziptie said:


> I searched for all the model numbers for a reasonably priced offering


Just for fun, I searched again. Here's a -2972 (middle, bright finish) in used condition. Hope someone here enjoys it. 









https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/e403466622?lang=en


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> While I remain skeptical of your methodology, I do appreciate the effort you've put in to determine the color differences between these surface finishes. :-!
> 
> I can say regarding reflectivity - more helpful than RGB values (since given different surfaces of identical reflectivity but slightly different composition we could still see an RGB value difference), simple visual observation reveals more brightness from the surface of the Solar Tech. This stands to reason, since as I understand it this era of Citizen Ti is treated with a glass surface coating of some sort. I'd be very interested to learn more about that, if you have more details.


Any scientist worth his salt manipulates the data to proof his theory! Meanwhile I remain skeptical of your birth certificate! Are you a Russian bot? Are you hacking the 2020 elections through propaganda on WUS? Is HorologicOptic an anagram for SatanicScientologist? I rest my case.

Let me take my meds.

There. All better. Anyway, I do object to you using 'simple visual observation' to determine brightness, while I back my color tone observations up with at least some kind of empirical evidence, to support years of anecdotal evidence by WUS users, not to mention reputable camera resellers from the 80s and 90s! But since we're resorting to our measly eye sight, I think the most noticeable thing in the GMC titanium, that I see on your watch and my older titanium Citizens, is the sparkle effect, almost metal flake like effect. As I postulated before, probably to do with thin-film interference. The ion-plated TiC is not only more shiny, but also more even, more smooth, maybe literally, as can be seen below, though the rainbow effect on the GMC can only be seen from very close up, before the colors merge like the RGB pixels in your screen.










That TIC is so shiny you'd think the whole bracelet was polished, which it is not. I viewed the GMC under magnification, and it is indeed very grainy looking.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Since the GMC - Glass Multi-layer Coating as translated from Japanese - is never explained and doesn't exist in English as such, I tried a different route and started looking through Citizen Watch Company's patents.
After all, in that old (translated) screenshot I posted, it says:
GMC Titanum: To coat the surface of the titanium in the patented technology "glass multilayer coating" (Glass Multi-layer Coating)" Citizen achieve about twice the hardness of the normal titanium.

Most patents relate to TiN and TiC ion-plating, some date back to the 80s, but I think this one from 1993 relates to the origins of the 'White IP', or the shiny TIC as we know it.

"White decorative part and process for producing the same

A white decorative part comprising: a substrate, a white hard coating formed on the substrate according to a dry plating process, and an outermost coating formed on the white hard coating according to a dry plating process, wherein the white hard coating is composed of either a nitride, a carbide, an oxide or a carbonitride of at least one element selected from among Ti, Hf, Zr, Ta, V, Cr and Al or Ti, and wherein the outermost coating is composed of an alloy of gold and any of nickel, tantalum, cobalt, palladium, silver, rhodium, titanium and iron, the proportion of the gold to the outermost coating ranging from 30 to 80 atomic % while the proportion of the nickel, tantalum, cobalt, palladium, silver, rhodium, titanium or iron to the outermost coating ranges to 20 to 70 atomic %. Further, a process for producing the white decorative part. This white decorative part has a uniform white tone of high lightness and warmth, is excellent in the adhesion between the outermost coating and the substrate and ensures an appearance of superior quality. When the outermost coating is composed of a gold-titanium or gold-iron alloy, the white decorative part is free from causing any metal allergy to the skin."

Only one year earlier, in 1992, they applied for another patent, the only patent to mention the word glass.

"Structure of coating film for accessory

PURPOSE: To prevent cracks in a hard carbon layer for a metal accessory by forming a laminated film consisting of a hard carbon layer, hard transparent glass layer, and silica directly on the surface of a metal accessory or with a hard base layer interposed. 

CONSTITUTION: A base layer 2 comprising a Ti film and Si film is formed by electron beam vapor deposition or the like on the surface of an accessory made of metal such as stainless steel, iron steel, super hard allay, copper alloy, and light alloy. Then, a hard carbon layer 3 is formed on the base layer 2 by using a hydrocarbon gas such as methane as the reaction gas, and further the accessory is dipped in a mixture colloid liquid of sodium silicate and silica soln., drawn from the liquid, heated and dried to form a hard transparent glass layer 4. Then, a soln. of partially hydrolyzed ethylsilicate is applied, dried, and baked to from the uppermost layer 5 of silica. Thus, the obtd. accessary has no crack in the hard carbon layer 3."

After this follows a very long and very technical explanation, that will probably only make sense to material engineers. So could this be the patented GMC?

There is also a patent from 1988 which I think is saying the same thing, but it doesn't mention the word glass, only silica and silicate.

"Surface-coated metallic ornamental article and method for the preparation thereof

A metal-made ornamental article, such as watch cases and the like, is provided with a bilayered coating layer highly resistant against scratches and chemicals without decreasing the aesthetic value of the article. The coating layer is composed of an undercoat.ing layer of a specified thickness formed from an aqueous colloidal solution of sodium silicate and silica sol in a specified proportion and a top-coating layer of a specified thickness formed by coating with a solution of a partial hydrolysis-condensation product of an organic silicate ester compound, such as ethyl silicate, followed by baking to effect curing of the coating layer."

Edit: actually it does mention the word glass further on:

"The present invention relates to a surface-coated metallic or.namental article, especially, for personal use such as watch cases and watch straps as well as a method for the preparation thereof by providing a coating layer on the surface of a metallic substrate body. More particularly, the invention relates to a metallic orna.mental article having a glassy protecting coating layer free from the disadvantageous phenomenon of blooming or whitening on the surface as well as a method for forming such a coating layer on the surface of a metallic substrate body."

So I think I solved the mystery, these patents involve glass (Si) and are multi-layer.

For HorologicOptic I will get technical anyway:

"Example 1

A watch case made from a titanium alloy was subjected to a honing treatment by using glass beads of #100 to #300 fineness on the surface followed by a degreasing treatment by washing with an alkali solution and then with water. The thus pretreated sur.face of the watch case was undercoated by dipping in a coating so.lution which was prepared by diluting a mixed colloidal solution containing sodium silicate and silica sol in such concentrations that the content of SiO₂ was 20% by weight and the content of Na₂O was 4.0% by weight by about 6 times using fully decarbo.nated pure water obtained by ion exchange. After drying, the thus coated watch case was baked at about 200 °C for about 60 minutes to form a hard glassy undercoating film having a thickness of about 1.5 µm.

The thus undercoated watch case was further coated, by dip.ping, with a coating solution containing about 30% by weight of a partial hydrolysis-condensation product of ethyl silicate prepared by the addition of ethyl alcohol to a master solution containing about 60% by weight thereof in ethyl alcohol. After evaporation of the solvent, the watch case having the top-coating layer was baked by heating at about 250 °C for about 60 minutes to form a top-.coating layer having a thickness of about 2.5 µm.

The results of the evaluation tests undertaken in the above described manner are shown in Table 1 given below."

"Example 3
A watch case made from titanium metal was subjected to a honing treatment using glass beads of #100 to #300 fineness and the surface was degreased by washing first with an alkali solution and then with water.

The thus pretreated surface of the watch case was under.coated by spraying of a coating solution which was prepared by about 4 times dilution of a mixed colloidal solution containing so.dium silicate and silica sol in such concentrations that the content of SiO₂ was 20% by weight and the content of Na₂O was 4.0% by weight using fully decarbonated pure water obtained by ion ex.change. After drying, the thus coated watch case was baked at about 250 °C for about 40 minutes to form a hard glassy under.coating film having a thickness of about 2.5 µm.

The thus undercoated watch case was further coated, by spraying, with a coating solution containing about 30% by weight of a partial hydrolysis-condensation product of ethyl silicate pre.pared by the addition of ethyl alcohol to a master solution contain. ing about 60% by weight thereof in ethyl alcohol. After evapora.tion of the solvent, the watch case having the top-coating layer was baked by heating at about 200 °C for about 80 minutes to form a top-coating layer having a thickness of about 2.5 µm.

The results of the evaluation tests undertaken in the above described manner are shown in Table 1 given below."

There are more examples like this...


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Since the GMC - Glass Multi-layer Coating as translated from Japanese - is never explained and doesn't exist in English as such, I tried a different route and started looking through Citizen Watch Company's patents. [...]
> There are more examples like this...


Wow, this is outstanding! Thanks for looking into this, I knew you'd come through with something impressive :-!

I appreciate the inclusion of the more technical elements, as that's where the secret sauce is! I would also enjoy a link these and/or the relevant patent number(s)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Wow, this is outstanding! Thanks for looking into this, I knew you'd come through with something impressive :-!
> 
> I appreciate the inclusion of the more technical elements, as that's where the secret sauce is! I would also enjoy a link these and/or the relevant patent number(s)


Sigh, I wanted to be lazy, but okay...

White coating
https://patents.google.com/patent/U...tizen+watch&oq=titanium+coating+citizen+watch

GMC
https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH05339755A/en?q=(glass+coating)&assignee=Citizen+Watch+Co+Ltd
https://patents.google.com/patent/E...glass+coating)+assignee:(Citizen+Watch+Co+Ltd)


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Sigh, I wanted to be lazy, but okay...
> 
> White coating
> https://patents.google.com/patent/U...tizen+watch&oq=titanium+coating+citizen+watch
> 
> GMC
> https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH05339755A/en?q=(glass+coating)&assignee=Citizen+Watch+Co+Ltd
> https://patents.google.com/patent/E...glass+coating)+assignee:(Citizen+Watch+Co+Ltd)


Thanks, this is great stuff!

I'm almost afraid to ask, but.... does the MRK process have a patent?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Challenge accepted. I am 99% sure this is the patent for what Citizen brands as Duratect MRK:
https://patents.google.com/patent/D...gas+hardening)+assignee:(Citizen+Watch+Co+Ltd)

And this is a Citizen patent not for gas hardening, but hardening with solids, specifically powders or pastes. I don't think this has commercial application, probably they preferred the gas hardening.
https://patents.google.com/patent/U...gas+hardening)+assignee:(Citizen+Watch+Co+Ltd)

And this seems to be the patent for what Citizen brands as Duratect Gold, which according to the info on page 1 of this thread has the same hardness as MRK (1300-1500 Hv):
https://patents.google.com/patent/U...gas+hardening)+assignee:(Citizen+Watch+Co+Ltd)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Well I guess if you mix grey with champagne you do sort of end up with the typical titanium color.
> I don't have software to mix colors or read actual RGB values though, I'm just using MS Paint :-D


I did something fun, while I can't mix colors with fancy software, I figured I could 'add' colors myself and enter the values in MS Paint.

The light champagne color I sampled is RGB 212,178,80. Typical grey in Paint is RGB 128,128,128.

So I add those together, to get 340,306,208, which is more than the maximum value of 255.
So I adjust to make R 100, like my titanium reference color, which was RGB 100,82,62.
So adjusted that gives 100,90,61, reasonably close to 100,82,62.

Let's try the darker champagne sample, which is RGB 142,102,51:
Add 128,128,128 -> 270,230,179 -> 100,85,66, close but no cigar.

But here is the kicker, if I do the same with my bronze sample, which is RGB 187,132,75:
Add the 128,128,128 to get 315,260,203, adjust to get R 100 -> 100,83,64. Very close indeed.
Then the darker bronze sample, which is RGB 149,98,41:
Add 128,128,128 -> 277,226,169 -> 100,82,61. Nearly identical to 100,82,62!!!!

Turns out bronze IS the correcter term for the tone of (untreated) titanium after all!
My Color Math™ proves it lol. View it and weep!









PS1, if I sample the values in above image I get slightly different ones to the ones I calculated and then entered in Paint to make the image, I think this is due to jpg compression and such.

PS2, can I still unconcede to champagne? It was peer pressure 

PS3, although, actually the color for MRK in my indoors picture is closer to the 'calculated' light champagne grey tone.
MRK 100,86,60 -> Light champagne grey 100,90,61. So I was indeed seeing a 'yellowish/bronzish' tone in the MRK.

PS4, Xbox 360, Wii U, trololol


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## CitizenPromaster

Let's look at a well used Duratect MRK watch, a 2013 PMV65-2271 currently for sale on Yahoo! Japan.





































Look at all the gunk, they could have at least cleaned the thing for even one minute with an old tooth brush and some water! Looking past that, I don't see any really deep scratches, though the MRK certainly is not bullet proof, but it seems that on my Duratect TIC Pilot Chrono, there are deeper dings, scratches, as if they went through the TIC coating. Or to put it differently, the MRK seems to deform when abused, like the flat spot on the bezel, and the TIC is more likely to be penetrated when abused. Does that make sense?

What say ye? Compared to titanium (Citizen) watches you have abused?


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## HorologicOptic

For "definitive" reference, here is the US patent detailing what is most likely to be the nitrogen/oxygen diffusion hardening process known as *Duratect MRK* -

US Patent Number: US 6,221,173 B1
Granted: Apr. 24, 2001 
Expired: Mar. 25, 2017


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## CitizenPromaster

I'm pretty sure that is just the US patent version of the German patent version I posted  both 'Priority to JP7018096' and both expire... TODAY :-O


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## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> I'm pretty sure that is just the US patent version of the German patent version I posted  both 'Priority to JP7018096' and both expire... TODAY :-O


That's correct, though for archival purposes a link that will likely be dead in some years is less useful than a patent number in plain text.



CitizenPromaster said:


> Let's look at a well used Duratect MRK watch, a 2013 PMV65-2271 currently for sale on Yahoo! Japan.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Look at all the gunk, they could have at least cleaned the thing for even one minute with an old tooth brush and some water! Looking past that, I don't see any really deep scratches, though the MRK certainly is not bullet proof, but it seems that on my Duratect TIC Pilot Chrono, there are deeper dings, scratches, as if they went through the TIC coating. Or to put it differently, the MRK seems to deform when abused, like the flat spot on the bezel, and the TIC is more likely to be penetrated when abused. Does that make sense?
> 
> What say ye? Compared to titanium (Citizen) watches you have abused?


I can't say I've properly abused a Citizen Ti watch, but it does look like this example you've provided is *extremely* well loved. I wonder what kind of life its owner leads to enjoy this exemplary level of use.

Based on the damage present here as well as the characteristics I have observed at high magnification, I am not sure the bezel is actually MRK treated.


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## CitizenPromaster

I get it, patriotism, nitpicking...
No, I agree the US patent is a better "definitive" reference than the German counterpart, it has better English.
But you made it seem like what I posted did not describe Duratect MRK, and that hurts my precious ego


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## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Based on the damage present here as well as the characteristics I have observed at high magnification, I am not sure the bezel is actually MRK treated.


I would like you to motivate your doubt. I think what you saw under the microscope might simply be the remnant of the "working strain layer", see MRK patent:
"The working strain layer caused by polishing represents stress applied during abrasive machining that remains in the form of lattice distortion, and is in the state of an amorphous phase or degraded crystallinity." According to the MRK patent, they apply the hardening to the polished piece, but the key is that they first anneal it, "in order to moderate the working strain layer", which avoids discoloration at the surface and decreased diffusion (depth).

Anyway, here is the biggest damage on my TIC watch, the clasp has a deep scratch, the bezel has more of an abrasion. I don't see such deep scratches on the MRK clasp, nor such large abrasions on the imho MRK bezel. The MRK bezel has a huge collection of little dents, or deformations. To me both the MRK clasp and bezel seem to react similarly different to the TIC clasp and bezel when damaged, the MRK surface seems 'pushed in' or 'compressed', rather than 'split like the Red Sea' or 'scraped off' like the TIC surface.


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## Chaos_meme

Cool thread guys. One of the best I’ve seen here. Definitely want a Dt alpha or MRK model.


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## CitizenPromaster

Chaos_meme said:


> Cool thread guys. One of the best I've seen here. Definitely want a Dt alpha or MRK model.


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## CitizenPromaster

I was able to dig up a website from 1999 about Duratect, and much to my surprise, the first commercial application of "Duratect" was not IP / TIC, it was an early form of MRK!










And as stated by the "MRK patent", on this website it is stated that the hardening process is applied to the *polished* product, so there is no reason at all for a polished bezel not to be MRK, I'm looking at you HorologicOptic 

"No, you are free to do any design. It will be easy to understand when you look at the manufacturing process. As shown in the figure below, the dura-tect process is performed after molding / polishing. In other words, there is no restriction on the design or processing because it is in the state of the base material at the time of processing. In addition, both sides and bands are exactly the same as the conventional manufacturing process. Any design, from ladies watches to diver watches, is free."

Furthermore, remember that I mentioned a new Promaster 200m diver listed as 'Duratect Titanium Carbide, Duratect MRK', without them specifying which part is what? Well, there are two variants of that watch, and the other has a DLC bezel, and that one is listed as 'Duratect DLC, Duratect MRK', in other words, if the bezel has a surface treatment that differs from the case/bracelet (usually DLC) then Citizen will list it as such, no hidden agenda!


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## CitizenPromaster

By 2002, as below screenshot shows, Duratect had branched into TIC, MRK and TIN, though Duratect MRK was still at 800 Hv, instead of the current 1300-1500 Hv.










The "shocking" conclusion is now that not all Duratect MRK was created equal. I will try to ascertain when MRK became 1300-1500 Hv, to be continued...


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## CitizenPromaster

Ok, while no values are mentioned, these images from a 2007 Duratect page imply that MRK is more scratch resistant than TIC, so possibly the 1300-1500 Hv was attained by then.










The first time this Duratect page starts mentioning the values, as we know them from page 1 of this thread, was in september 2010, but they used the same scratch test images, which makes it plausible that all the technology was there in 2007. This 2010 iteration of the page (not shown, it is too long to make a screenshot) is also when the combination DLC/MRK is first mentioned, though the first DLC/MRK watch was introduced in december 2006 (the PMP56-2933).

Taking the above into account, I'm starting to doubt if the stronger MRK '2.0' with Hv 1300-1500 was introduced with the coveted (by me) Promaster Sky Pilot watches that appeared in 2005 and 2006. Especially considering the fact that after 2006 no new Pilot model appeared until 2010, when our beloved PMV65-2271 was introduced, which has a slightly different case, without holes in the lugs. So it might very well be that the first Pilot model with the MRK '2.0' was the PMV65-2271, and that its launch in 2010 was the reason to update the Duratect page that year. To be continued...


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## Angler

I really like titanium watches and don't understand why anyone would want a weight-belt attached to their wrist. This thread has been very informative. I had become interested in a Grand Seiko 9F quartz but now need to also consider what Citizen has to offer.
BTW: I've got 5 Titanium rods a plate and twelve screws holding my spine together. They have done a great job of keeping me erect and moving. Got to love titanium.


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## HorologicOptic

Chaos_meme said:


> Cool thread guys. One of the best I've seen here. Definitely want a Dt alpha or MRK model.


Glad to have you here - you have indeed been initiated. *One of us! One of us! *



Angler said:


> I really like titanium watches and don't understand why anyone would want a weight-belt attached to their wrist. This thread has been very informative. I had become interested in a Grand Seiko 9F quartz but now need to also consider what Citizen has to offer.


I agree. Though I do have some (actually pretty bulky) stainless watches, I do prefer light metals for the daily drive. Glad to have you here - I know I'm hoping for a continued evolution of this thread and more people to enjoy this esoteric zaniness with us! :-d

As has been previously linked here, The Citizen 4020-54Y or similar flagship offering gives GS and their 9F a real run for the money! (of course in here we're perhaps more than a bit biased towards The Citizen, but of course you already knew that). I'll also highlight that I have recently been sourcing all of my Japanese watches through SeiyaJapan and I could't be happier with the responsiveness and speed :-!



Angler said:


> BTW: I've got 5 Titanium rods a plate and twelve screws holding my spine together. They have done a great job of keeping me erect and moving. *Got to love titanium.*


So true! Its importance in the medical field and the lives that have been changed through its application can't be overstated. In this case we are focusing on functional jewelry, but it's great to keep in mind how useful the stuff really is.

....uuuuhhh Duratect PTIC something something on topic :rodekaart


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## CitizenPromaster

The 2006 Japanese Citizen website is very vague about Duratect, and the page from 2007 as shown above can only be found (on the 2006 website) via the Attesa section, not the Promaster section.

My theory is, MRK was (being) improved for the (Pilot) watches that were introduced in 2005/2006, but since Citizen (factory) and dealers still had a lot of the early 800 Hv MRK watches (and parts) in stock, they couldn't communicate the new values, until these MRK '1.0' watches were sold/discontinued, which happened during 2007 and 2008. During this time Citizen maybe only felt like they could show the MRK scratch resistance being superior to TIC, without mentioning actual values, so as not to get claims from customers who buy/have bought the MRK '1.0' watches. The Pilot watches released in 2005/2006 were discontinued in June 2010, and afterwards Citizen could 'safely' roll out the new detailed hardness information, which they did around September 2010.

I still think it's likely that the 'transition phase' Promaster (Pilot) watches (2005-2009) had MRK that was higher than 800 Hv, but perhaps it was not quite 1300-1500 Hv yet. So if you want to be certain that you get a 1300-1500 Hv MRK watch, it's probably best to pick a model that was launched/produced in 2010 or later.


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## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> For "definitive" reference, here is the US patent detailing what is most likely to be the nitrogen/oxygen diffusion hardening process known as *Duratect MRK* -
> 
> US Patent Number: US 6,221,173 B1
> Granted: Apr. 24, 2001
> Expired: Mar. 25, 2017


The 2010 Duratect page I mentioned says for MRK: "Patent registration NO.3225263, NO.3179787"
Those are: https://patents.google.com/patent/JP3225263B2/ - Titanium decorative members and hardening method thereof (auto-translate)
US patent equivalent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6451129B2/en - Titanium-base decoration member and method for curing the same

And: https://patents.google.com/patent/JP3179787B2/ (equivalent of the US patent in the above quote) - The surface treatment method of titanium or a titanium alloy member (auto-translate)

"Most likely" -> It has been confirmed, straight from the horse's mouth.


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## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Here's a closer look at the bezel of the *PMV65-2271*
> 
> *200x*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> *500x*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> *1000x*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> We do start to see some interesting things upon closer inspection, though we also see the shallow depth of field and grime inherent when viewing something that's not a prepared (ground, diamond polished, and cleaned) sample...


Well, well, well, don't the below drawings from the MRK patent US6451129B2 look familiar, HorologicOptic


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## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> The 2010 Duratect page I mentioned says for MRK: "Patent registration NO.3225263, NO.3179787"
> Those are: https://patents.google.com/patent/JP3225263B2/ (Priority to JP18911096) - Titanium decorative members and hardening method thereof
> And: https://patents.google.com/patent/JP3179787B2/ (Priority to JP7018096, like the US patent above) - The surface treatment method of titanium or a titanium alloy member
> 
> "Most likely" -> It has been confirmed, straight from the horse's mouth.


Thanks for all this researched info! I'm happy we're able to find as much detailed marketing info as we are, since in the West, Citizen are a fairly silent group. Good to confirm the MRK patent as well. So it would seem Citizen patented their process when they were only reaching c.800Hv, and then subsequently improved the process to the 1300Hv+ range we start seeing as standard in 2010 with the recipe kept as a trade secret? I'm thinking rather than revolutionizing key aspects of the diffusion hardening process, Citizen primarily made strides in lowering scrap rates for their target hardness ranges when dealing specifically with watch cases and bracelets.



CitizenPromaster said:


> Side note: the Japanese patent (auto-)translates the distorted polished surface as "processing strain layer", which sounds better to me than "working strain layer".


I can confirm that "working strain layer" is the correct term when dealing with forgings, at least in English.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I would like you to motivate your doubt. I think what you saw under the microscope might simply be the remnant of the "working strain layer", see MRK patent:
> "The working strain layer caused by polishing represents stress applied during abrasive machining that remains in the form of lattice distortion, and is in the state of an amorphous phase or degraded crystallinity." According to the MRK patent, they apply the hardening to the polished piece, but the key is that they first anneal it, "in order to moderate the working strain layer", which avoids discoloration at the surface and decreased diffusion (depth).


So the working strain layer is an amorphous phase or degraded crystallinity, and the MRK patent US6451129B2 tells us and shows us that the lines on the surface are actually the crystal grains, so not the remnant of the working strain layer as I postulated. So while I guessed wrong as to the origin of the lines, their presence in your microscope images does actually proof the bezel is MRK:

"A decorative titanium material according to the present invention eliminates a deterioration of the appearance even after processing, that is, provides a small surface roughness, and has a hardened layer of titanium at the surface of the titanium material, this hardened surface layer including nitrogen and oxygen, and having a surface crystal grain size in the range from 0.1 to 60 μm."


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> So the working strain layer is an amorphous phase or degraded crystallinity, and the MRK patent US6451129B2 tells us and shows us that the lines on the surface are actually the crystal grains, so not the remnant of the working strain layer as I postulated. So while I guessed wrong as to the origin of the lines, their presence in your microscope images does actually proof the bezel is MRK:
> 
> "A decorative titanium material according to the present invention eliminates a deterioration of the appearance even after processing, that is, provides a small surface roughness, and has a hardened layer of titanium at the surface of the titanium material, this hardened surface layer including nitrogen and oxygen, and having a surface crystal grain size in the range from 0.1 to 60 μm."


While I see the lines of reasoning you are following based on the information presented in this scope, I can assure you that the presence of grain structure is not proof of a diffusion hardening process.

I was speculating there might be some coating on the surface of the bezel since what does indeed look like grain structure seems to be not entirely decided on its association to what is underneath, somewhat similar to the grain structures readily visible on galvanized steels. That being said, this could instead be a result of a process like cold working or something I am less familiar with, and does not outright preclude MRK. I don't mean for my mild speculation to be seen as a claim that "this cannot be MRK," since I am not saying that at all. :-!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The particular grain structure that is seen under the microscope is the direct result of the hardening process, the crystal grains are even shown in the patent images...

"However, there is still the problem of a deterioration in the quality of appearance caused by a surface roughness.

In ion nitriding technology, to reduce the degree of surface roughness, a method that has been used is that of reducing the sputtering effect. However, there has not been a basic reduction in the surface roughness caused by diffusion of nitrogen, carbon, or oxygen into the material itself.

Thus, in methods such as gas nitriding, carburizing, and oxidation for hardening the titanium material itself, the prior art did not include, as a method of reducing the surface roughness, such approaches as performing preprocessing to change the surface roughness of the material itself before processing, and did not envision attention to be paid to the size of crystal grains of the metal material itself, or the size of the crystal grains that grow in a planar direction on the hardened surface.

The problem of deterioration in quality of appearance is thought to be particularly attributable to a surface roughness caused by protrusions at the crystal grain boundary occurring at the initial phase.

Protrusions at the crystal grain boundary which occur in gas nitriding and in oxidization and nitriding are thought to be caused by stress concentrations at the crystal grain boundary that are caused by the formation of compounds at the crystal grain boundary or by lattice distortion caused by solid solution of nitrogen and oxygen.

If the protrusions at the crystal grain boundary are observed on a visual observation, a roughening of the surface can be perceived, this in particular making application impossible for use of the titanium material as a decorative material with a mirror polished.

As the height of these protrusions increases, the maximum height Rmax and mean surface roughness Ra increase, and the quality of the appearance deteriorates.

It has been discovered that the height of the protrusions at the crystal grain boundary is attributed to the size of the crystal grains in the titanium material before processing, and that the height of the protrusions becomes larger, the larger are the crystal grains that grow in the planar direction after hardening of the titanium material or the larger are the crystal grains before hardening.

In gas nitriding as done in the past, because heating is done to a temperature that is close to the transformation point (850° C. to 870° C.), a phenomenon of the crystal grains become coarse occurs and, from the above considerations, there is a further enlarging of the protrusions at the crystal grain boundary.

In particular in the case of a decorative metal material using either titanium or a titanium alloy, with gas nitriding as done in the past, because heating is done to a temperature that is close to the transformation point (800° C. to 870° C.), the crystal grains become coarse, and a stress concentration occurs at the crystal grain boundary, caused by the formation of compounds at the crystal grain boundary or by lattice distortion caused by solid solution of nitrogen, oxygen or carbon, this causing protrusions at the crystal grain boundary.

The height of these protrusions is larger, the larger is the higher of the size of the crystal grains of titanium or titanium alloy itself before processing. When viewed on a visual observation, there is a perception of a surface roughness, this leading to the problem of not being able to use this material, in particular, as a decorative material having a mirror polished.

That is, in a method such as gas nitriding, carburizing, oxidation, or nitriding, in which the titanium material itself is hardened as was done in the past, it was not possible to solve the problem of deterioration of the appearance, that is, to solve the problem of surface roughness of the material after the hardening process.

Accordingly, it is an object of the present invention to solve the problems accompanying the above-noted prior art, by providing a hardened titanium material that does not exhibit a deterioration in appearance even after hardening, and exhibits little surface roughness.

DISCLOSURE OF THE INVENTION

In order to achieve the above-noted object, a hardened titanium material and method of hardening a titanium material according to the present invention has the following technical constitution.

Specifically, the present invention is a decorative titanium material 2 which has a hardened layer 20 over a titanium material 21, the hardened layer 20 on the surface includes nitrogen and oxygen, and also the size of the crystal grains 24 at the surface of this decorative titanium material 2 (the diameter indicated as 26 in FIG. 1) is in the range from 0.1 to 60 μm, and the maximum height of the surface roughness Rmax of the decorative titanium material 2 is no more than 1000 nm.

A method of hardening a decorative titanium material according to the present invention has a step of heating so as to raise the temperature of the titanium material in an inert gas atmosphere, a first hardening step of heating the titanium material in a first atmosphere, which is an atmosphere that includes nitrogen and oxygen, to a processing temperature of at least 700° C. , a second atmosphere adjustment step of heating the titanium material in an inert gas atmosphere of argon or helium or the like to a processing temperature of at least 700° C. , and a step of cooling the titanium material in an inert gas atmosphere.

Another aspect of a method of hardening a titanium material according to the present invention has a step of forming a protective film 10 that has a fine crystal grain size 24 in the range from 0.1 to 60 μm onto the surface of a decorative titanium material 2, a step of heating the titanium material with a raising temperature in an inert gas atmosphere, a first hardening step of heating the material to a temperature of at least 700° C. in an atmosphere that includes oxygen and nitrogen, as the first atmosphere, a second atmosphere adjustment step of heating the titanium material in an inert gas atmosphere of argon or helium or the like to a processing temperature of at least 700° C. , and a step of cooling the titanium material in an inert gas atmosphere.

Yet another aspect of a method of hardening a decorative titanium material having a hardened surface layer according to the present invention has a step of forming a protective film having a crystal grain size in the range from 0.1 to 60 μm onto the surface of the decorative titanium material, a step of heating the titanium material with a rising temperature in an inert gas atmosphere, a first hardening step of heating the material to a temperature of at least 700° C. in an atmosphere that includes oxygen and nitrogen, as the first atmosphere, a second atmosphere adjustment step of heating the titanium material in an inert gas atmosphere of argon or helium or the like to a processing temperature of at least 700° C., and a step of cooling the titanium material in an inert gas atmosphere.

In a hardened titanium material obtained by the decorative titanium material hardening method of the present invention, by making the crystal grain size after processing be in the range from 0.1 to 60 μm, or by a step of forming a protective film thereonto which has microfine crystal grains, it is possible to eliminate the deterioration of the appearance after processing, that is, it is possible to obtain a surface with little roughness.

It is clear that the problem with deterioration of the appearance with regard to the present invention is attributed to a surface roughness caused by protrusions at the crystal grain boundary 22 in the initial phase.

The protrusions in the crystal grain boundary 22 that occur during processing by gas nitriding, oxidation and nitriding or the like are thought to be caused by stress concentrations at the crystal grain boundary that are caused by the formation of compounds at the crystal grain boundary or by lattice distortion caused by solid solution of nitrogen or oxygen.

If the protrusions at the crystal grain boundary 22 are observed visually, a surface roughness is perceived, this presenting a particular problem, in that use of the material is not possible as a decorative material with a mirror polished.

As the height of these protrusions increases, the maximum height of surface roughness Rmax and mean surface roughness Ra increase, and the quality of the outer appearance deteriorates. In the present invention, it was discovered that the height of the protrusions at the crystal grain boundary is attributed to the size of the crystal grains in the titanium material itself before processing, and that the height of the protrusions becomes larger, the larger are the crystal grains of the titanium material.

In the case of using titanium or a titanium alloy as a decorative metal material, protrusions occur at the crystal grain boundary, these occurring due to stress concentration at the crystal grain boundary because of the formation of compounds such as titanium nitride (TiN) and titanium oxide (TiO2) at the crystal grain boundary, or lattice distortion caused by solid solution of nitrogen and oxygen.

The larger is the crystal grain size of the titanium or titanium alloy before processing, the greater will be the height of the above-noted protrusions.

When this is viewed on a visual observation, it is permitted as a roughening of the surface, this leading to a deterioration of the appearance, making the material unusable in particular as a decorative material with a mirror polished.

Additionally, after processing, as the formation of compounds such as titanium nitride (TiN) proceeds at the crystal grain boundary and within the grains, this phenomenon can be observed as a surface roughness of the surface on a macro level, this also representing a deterioration of the outer appearance that makes the material unusual in particular as a decorative material with a mirror polished.

By using a titanium material having a surface with crystal grains having sizes in the range from 0.1 to 60 μm, and performing heat treating under controlled temperature and time conditions in an atmosphere that includes nitrogen and oxygen, by virtue of the effect of a small crystal grain size before heat treating and the effect of nitrogen and oxygen that are solid solution into the crystal grain boundary inhibiting the coarsening of the crystal grains, it is possible to maintain crystal grains that grow in a planar direction with a size of 0.1 to 60 μm while performing the processing.

When the above-noted processing is performed, the height of the protrusions at the crystal grain boundary reduced. That is, stress at the crystal grain boundary that occurs because of the lattice distortion caused by the solid solution and diffusion of nitrogen and oxygen is distributed by the effects such as an increase in the proportional of unit surface area occupied by the crystal boundaries.

As a result of this phenomenon, there is a reduction in the surface roughness which, when viewed on a visual observation, makes it possible to inhibit the deterioration in the appearance of the material.

In the present invention, by forming a protective film having a crystal grain size in the range 0.1 to 60 μm onto the surface of a decorative titanium material and then performing heat treating thereof in an atmosphere of nitrogen and oxygen, the effects of a microfine crystal grain size before heat treating and the inhibition by nitrogen and oxygen of a roughening of the crystal grain size are achieved, making it possible to maintain surface crystal grain size that grow in a planar direction with a size of 0.1 to 60 μm while performing the processing.

In this case, for the same reasons described above, the height of the protrusions at the crystal grain boundary is reduced.

That is, as shown in FIG. 5, using a titanium material that has a large crystal grain size of its surface, when hardening is performed the crystal grains become enlarged, resulting in protrusions at the crystal grain boundaries.

However, as shown in FIG. 4, if hardening is performed of a titanium material having a surface with small crystal grain size, the crystal grain size after processing are also small, and it can be seen that the protrusions at the crystal grain boundaries are reduced in size as well.

DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS

FIG. 1 is a perspective view that shows the hardened titanium material onto which has been formed a hardened layer in accordance with an embodiment of the present invention.

FIG. 2 is a schematic representation of processing apparatus for the purpose of forming a hardened layer for a titanium material according to an embodiment of the present invention.

FIG. 3 is a schematic representation of the process steps for the purpose of forming a hardened layer for a titanium material according to an embodiment of the present invention.

FIG. 4 (A) is an enlarged view of the crystal grains for the case of forming at processing temperature of 700° C. a hardened layer, according to an embodiment of the present invention, for a titanium material having small crystal grains, and FIG. 4 (B) is a graph that shows the results of measuring the surface roughness thereof.

FIG. 5 (A) is an enlarged view of the crystal grains for the case of forming at processing temperature of 700° C. a hardened layer, according to an embodiment of the present invention, for a titanium material having large crystal grains, and FIG. 5 (B) is a graph that shows the results of measuring the surface roughness thereof.

FIG. 6 (A) through FIG. 6 (C) are graphs that show thin-film X-ray diffraction results obtained from a decorative titanium material according to the present invention and a titanium material produced by the prior art.

FIG. 7 is a drawing that shows the example of forming a protective film onto a decorative titanium material according to the present invention and then performing processing.

FIG. 8 is a drawing that shows an example of the condition of a decorative titanium material having a protective layer, to which the hardening method according to the present invention can be applied.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

TLDR: as I understand it, the whole point of this patent is that it was impossible to maintain a mirror polished finish on titanium when using diffusion hardening, but Citizen found several ways to achieve exactly that, and the fact that the bezel on the PMV watch is marketed as MRK, is still shiny like a mirror AND under the microscope shows small protrusions at the crystal grain boundaries, is all coherent with the claims in the patent.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> TLDR: as I understand it, the whole point of this patent is that it was impossible to maintain a mirror polished finish on titanium when using diffusion hardening, but Citizen found several ways to achieve exactly that, and the fact that the bezel on the PMV watch is marketed as MRK, is still shiny like a mirror AND under the microscope shows small protrusions at the crystal grain boundaries, is all coherent with the claims in the patent.


I agree, these things do align. I think the mirror finish, or what looks to be one to the naked eye since as we can see it is not how mirror polishing normally looks at high magnification, is the sticking point. Good stuff, hopefully it holds up well and that well-loved PMV is just an outlier ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I think you are being too _hard_ on the MRK. I know I promote it as the second coming, but if you abuse it enough, it will still dent and to a lesser extent scratch.
It think it's mostly hard impacts that are its Achilles' heel, and I think most of us baby our watches in that respect, and this fella clearly didn't.


----------



## Angler

A solid gold watch 18K will very easily ding, dent, and scratch. I would not mind it one bit if all my watches were solid gold. But, if I wanted a shiny silver watch this titanium offering seems very appealing.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

GaryK30 said:


> Here's a new article from ABTW.
> 
> *Citizen Of Japan Aims For Space As It Celebrates 50 Years Of Industry-Leading Titanium Watches*
> 
> https://www.ablogtowatch.com/citize...0-years-of-industry-leading-titanium-watches/


The same day as this came out, there was a similar article: https://monochrome-watches.com/firs...0th-anniversary-titanium-technology-in-depth/









Caption: The 2000 Citizen ASPEC World Time, the first watch to apply the Citizen Duratect surface-hardening technology to create a material later called Super Titanium™.

So we now know this must have been the 800 Hv DURATECT-Titan (pre-MRK). Anyway, I know of another ASPEC watch from 2000, and it has a very cool design theme, check it out!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Sapphire = 2300 Hv, MRK bezel = 1300-1500 Hv, human hand/wrist = ??? Hv









Poor BY0080-65E (Pilot H610 Blue Impulse) and poor owner


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Saw a Dutch Citizen folder from the year 1998. The Promaster line consists of Sea, Land, Sky and _Space_, Space being the RC Eco-Drive that I own and have shown here.
There is no Promaster logo to be found on it, so that was just a marketing thing. The earlier non-Eco-Drive, multiband RC model was called Space Master though.

Interestingly the folder mentions that both the stainless steel and titanium cases are made as one piece through Metal Injection Molding (MIM).
It also mentions the titanium has a strengthened surface thanks to the "Glass Coating". That is the first non-Japanese mention I've seen of the GMC.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I posted elsewhere:

"Since I bought my Citizen Promaster Sky Chrono Pilot, model number AS4050-51E with caliber E670 and 1-band (EU) RC, in 2008, I haven't seen ANY watch that I like more in those 12 years. Somewhere last year it has been discontinued, and replaced by the CB5850-80E, which has an updated caliber E660 with power reserve meter and 4-band RC, and thus a slightly different dial design, which I like just a little less, besides I don't need 4-band RC, and if I ever travel I have another 4-band RC Citizen. So I decided to buy a fresh example of my favorite watch, which can now be had with a great discount because there is an 'upgraded' model. This one was made in January 2019, whilst my old one is from April 2008. I will keep the new one mint, and use the old one as a beater ^_^"










I actually noticed that the black parts on the dial have faded slightly, probably from 12 years of sunshine (thought I haven't really worn it the last 5 years), but it seems that the Duratect TIC has also somewhat aged. It has become slightly darker, assuming they started out the same color.

Now is also a nice opportunity to compare the knurling on the bezels. The new style looks much better, it is without the deformation, more rounded and it seems to be polished.










Not the most in focus picture, but I think the difference is clear enough.


----------



## hi_bri

By pattern recognition I noticed and picked up this titanium Attesa from July 1987. It's unfortunately only the ladies version. Have not seen the men's version available at all...






































I'm keeping it mainly for it's historical value.

-Brian


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Haha, I know they look like ladies watches size wise, but I think that is THE first Attesa that I referenced on page 8 of this thread. An amazingly rare find!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Since this thread has been revived, and inspired by above combined pic of the first Attesa and the first titanium Citizen, I want to take this opportunity to link to an article from Sweephand about that first titanium Citizen: This Week's Featured Watch #56 - the X8 Titanium Chronometer

He has only ever seen one come up for sale, and where it retailed originally (only 2000 pieces) for 45,000 yen, in 2011 it sold at auction for 163,000 yen: Japanese Auctions

Makes me curious what you paid, Brian... It was probably a steal since no one is aware of the historic value and they think it is a ladies watch ;-)


----------



## hi_bri

CitizenPromaster said:


> Makes me curious what you paid, Brian... It was probably a steal since no one is aware of the historic value and they think it is a ladies watch ;-)


I'm pretty sure I only have the ladies version. If you look a Citizen's stock photo, the men's version is a bit more ovoid laterally. The watch I have is 25mm in diameter with a very short bracelet so I'm sure only a lady would have worn this. If someone out there has Citizen's 1987 catalogue the mystery would be solved. When the item was listed at about 7000 yen (70 USD) it was noted as being rare but limited interest even amongst the Japanese bidders out there - probably because it's a ladies watch. I was the only bidder. I'd also like to know if the men's actually had the same caliber movement as this was not always the case within a series with a mens'/women's pair.

I saw the X8 Titanium chronometer listed about a year back as just an X8 and placed a minor bid. But when the prices went past 60000 Yen I stopped checking....

People are slowly giving credit to Citizen for their pioneering efforts in Titanium. Even amongst WIS's the first titanium wristwatches were often incorrectly credited to Porsche Design.

-Brian


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Suit yourself champ...


----------



## jkpa

This PMD56-2951 just arrived.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

hi_bri said:


> I'm pretty sure I only have the ladies version. If you look a Citizen's stock photo, the men's version is a bit more ovoid laterally. The watch I have is 25mm in diameter with a very short bracelet so I'm sure only a lady would have worn this. If someone out there has Citizen's 1987 catalogue the mystery would be solved. When the item was listed at about 7000 yen (70 USD) it was noted as being rare but limited interest even amongst the Japanese bidders out there - probably because it's a ladies watch. I was the only bidder. I'd also like to know if the men's actually had the same caliber movement as this was not always the case within a series with a mens'/women's pair.


Well I never heard of a ladies version, but this one does have a different case number, E60205, but same movement, 4630.




























The hi-res factory image has the same code on the dial as yours though, E60536:










And while we are at it: X8 Chronometer Titanium in hi-res:


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ok, now that I know the codes, and since the Japanese like to mention the case number in auctions, the images are pouring in and the mystery is solved, you indeed have a ladies watch, though the mens version is not much larger:










And this is an even earlier one than yours with an actual measurement:


----------



## hi_bri

CitizenPromaster said:


> Ok, now that I know the codes, and since the Japanese like to mention the case number in auctions, the images are pouring in and the mystery is solved, you indeed have a ladies watch, though the mens version is not much larger:


Great to hear you got it solved! I never understood Citizen's model numbers (unlike Seiko's alpha numerical system) as the caseback number seems to be what everyone goes by. Nice to also see some pics of the men's version. I'll keep my eyes peeled for that one but they seem to appear far and few between....

-Brian


----------



## dgaddis

jkpa said:


> This PMD56-2951 just arrived.


Nice. My PMD56-2952 is my favorite piece.


----------



## Snaggletooth




----------



## CitizenPromaster

I keep getting an itch to buy a PMD56-2772 or PMD56-2776 every time one comes up for sale on Yahoo Auctions, since it has a very distinct titanium look, but I couldn't really put my finger on why it looks distinct. Of course the narrow 'link inserts' on the bracelet are not polished like on the PMD56-2771 and the later PMV65-2271 (that I own), but it was more than that. And just now, looking at some high-res pics (one of them is posted below) that I saved on my computer, it finally struck me... The titanium on the 2772 and 2776 is not brushed, but bead blasted! Now I want one even more :'-)










How did I not see this earlier??? The PMD56-2771 (below) like I said has polished narrow 'link inserts' and is brushed, like the later PMV65-2271.



















The process of polishing and brushing seems to have been refined in the years that seperate the PMD (above) and the PMV (below) though, or maybe Watch Tanaka was just very good at taking pictures ^_^


----------



## Mitch100

CitizenPromaster suggested I repost this watch into this great thread. So here it is.

The watch is marked as 'TIIP' and being a very early citizen titanium watch is probably just grade 2 titanium with an IP coating and no additional hardening. Having said that the watch looks in very good condition for a thirty two year old watch, no major marks at all, so it does show that these IP coated watches can maintain their looks over a very long period.

I was just browsing a Japanese auction site and saw this watch.








It is a very early Citizen Attesa. Citizen introduced this line in 1987, to showcase their newly developed titanium watches and the build quality and finishing was a step up from the normal Citizens. This dates from June 1988 and uses the same 4630 movement used in the first Attesa. It is all titanium and has a domed sapphire crystal, it is quite small but wears bigger due to its integrated bracelet. The bracelet has a butterfly clasp.



The clasp was a bit loose when I got it but I soon tightened that up and it is now fine.

The watch is just a three hander and it is quite dressy and those are not my usual style but there was something about the grey colour, combined with its gold highlights, that I found attractive, its bracelet really complements the case and the black dial and gold hands are simple but again complement the rest of the watch and look quite classy actually.
I am not that fond of Roman numerals but with these being on the bezel and not the dial they don't intrude at all and actually a little bit of interest to the overall look.
It is in very good condition for an over thirty year old watch.

It is a very slim and light watch coming in at 5 mm thick and 63 g.



I don't think these early Attesa's were ever sold in the West and it is a pretty rare thing and you are unlikely to see another anytime soon,

A few wrist shots.











So this was not my usual style, I prefer more sporty and bigger watches, being a G Shock man really, than this dressy small one, gold is not something I usually look for and Roman numerals I tend to avoid but something about it just sang to me.


----------



## jhdscript

I have only one *Citizen Skyhawk Promaster* but this toolwatch is just amazing


----------



## JUSTACPA

Snaggletooth said:


> View attachment 15352293


What model # is that? How big is the case? And lastly, does it come in a version with a uni-direction rotating bezel? I really like the big numbers which are easy on my aging eyes.


----------



## Snaggletooth

JUSTACPA said:


> What model # is that? How big is the case? And lastly, does it come in a version with a uni-direction rotating bezel? I really like the big numbers which are easy on my aging eyes.


BN0118. 40mm. No.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I came across some old info about the PMD56-2772 that was used by Watch Tanaka since november 2003. It confirms what I was discussing on page 14 of this thread about the early Duratect MRK being only 800 Hv. Also interesting, they refer to the finish of the titanium on that model - that I discussed recently - as FPF, but unfortunately I can't decipher that initialism (and I also still don't know what MRK stands for). I think this FPF finish is also on the PMD56-2971.

The info says (auto-translate):
*"Duratect Black" surface treated titanium is used.*
● The "2-station radio clock" *automatic tuning reception function* eliminates the need to switch between east and west receiving stations.
● Equipped with an eco-drive that lasts about 2 years on a full charge.
● Fully automatic calendar function does not require calendar correction at the end of the month.
*☆* Maintenance-free by the above three functions, almost no need for crown operation.
● Titanium case + Duratect MRK case provides surprising weight, texture and scratch resistance.
*☆* Duratect MRK case has a coating hardness of Hv800 (a pure titanium is around Hv150)
and FPF gives off a unique shine of honing dark gray.
● Titanium vessel with surface treatment of "Duratect Black".
*☆* Realizes HV500 hardness by forming a ceramic coating of 20-30μ on titanium.
Furthermore, the glass coating makes it difficult for fingerprints and other stains to adhere.
● Sapphire glass windshield with anti-reflection coating.
● of Bikkufeisu that the inner range system the aviation slide rule dial.
● By adopting natural light and high-quality white paint,
we realized a precise and highly visible dial plate design comparable to the instrument panel of an aircraft.
●A metal band reminiscent of an airplane wing section.
● Fit adjuster center clasp that can be fine-tuned with one touch to always fit comfortably on your arm.
● Instantly check the date based on the idea of universal design*30% enlarged* font.
●Fit adjuster that enables fine adjustment of the band.
●Full metal case and screw lock type crown for waterproofing up to 20 bar.
●Weight: 102g, Case diameter: 43mm, Thickness: 12.3mm

The similar specs (from july 2003) for the PMD56-2771 (which is brushed/polished) don't describe the finish, they just state: "Duratect MRK case has a coating hardness of Hv800 (a pure titanium is around Hv150)", without the additional part about the FPF.

I wrote earlier: "The process of polishing and brushing seems to have been refined in the years that seperate the PMD (above) and the PMV (below) though, or maybe Watch Tanaka was just very good at taking pictures ^_^" Well, probably the latter, but you can be the judge (see below).

PMD56-2771 (2003)









PMV65-2271 (2010)


----------



## Rocky555

I wonder which of these two has better grade titanium?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Rocky555 said:


> I wonder which of these two has better grade titanium?


I think you might be confusing titanium grade with titanium surface treatment, but they probably both have the surface treatment Duratect TIC (titanium carbide coating), with one seemingly more polished. As for titanium grade, there is no evidence that I've seen for what grade of titanium Citizen uses.


----------



## Rocky555

Yes but there are different grades of titanium, probably resulting with different results of the similar surface treatment process.

Also I wonder which of these two has better resistance to scratches...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I'm afraid I can't help you with your queries.


----------



## simon1003

I really couldn't get on with the kevlar strap the BN0118-04E comes with and the official titanium bracelet is too expensive. So bought this Mabro bracelet. Yes it looks a bit bare without the end links. But it fits and wears well.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I came across some old info about the PMD56-2772 that was used by Watch Tanaka since november 2003. It confirms what I was discussing on page 14 of this thread about the early Duratect MRK being only 800 Hv. Also interesting, they refer to the finish of the titanium on that model - that I discussed recently - as FPF, but unfortunately I can't decipher that initialism (and I also still don't know what MRK stands for). I think this FPF finish is also on the PMD56-2971.


Of course I just had to know what FPF stands for, so I did some more digging. I found a Japanese discussion board post from 2003, it auto-translates as:
"I purchased PMD56-2772 for 59,500 yen. Actually, I went to buy PMD56-2771, but "Duratect Black (20-30μ ceramic coating)" Being caught in the slogan of "Glass coating FPF" and "Dial/Asahi finish" I just bought it. However, the black color of the bezel is still uncomfortable and I am not familiar with it. At first glance, I think that it is a rubber packing. Will I get used to it soon?"

First of all, he got a nice 30% discount (MSRP 85,000), but interestingly he seems to say "Glass coating FPF", which reminds me of the Glass Multi-layer Coating (GMC). Someone on the discussion board asks: "What is glassy coating FPF?" But he didn't get an answer unfortunately. Someone else on that discussion board does seem to agree with me on the appearance of the finish, I think he is comparing the 2771 to the 2772 in the following sentences:
"For the first time today, I saw the actual Denpu II. I compared it with Denp I, so I compared it, The visibility hasn't changed much. More than that, the case and breath are finished, and Ⅰ is a little glossy. Whereas Ⅱ is completely matte (sandblasted?) I noticed that it was turned into. For me, I prefer Denp I."

So I was getting close to the answer, and I did some more digging (searching with Japanese words), and I found this text from a Japanese sales page for the PMD56-2772:
"Keep evolving. Innovative features, ultimate reliability and sophisticated form of Promaster inspire an aggressive mind.

Introducing a model that adds new technological innovation to the popular Promaster radio timepiece. Newly adopted black "Duratect Black" surface treatment (patent pending) on titanium bezel with strong scratch resistance. By forming a ceramic coating of 20 to 30μ, we have achieved an altitude of HV500 (approximate value).

In addition, the glassy coating FPF (Finger Print Free) makes it difficult for stains such as fingerprints to attach. The case and bracelet are treated with MRK titanium (a technology that hardens the surface of Ti material in high-temperature gas, a patent pending) and FPF gives it a unique glow of dark gray."

Now the Watch Tanaka info I posted before makes sense:
*"☆* Duratect MRK case has a coating hardness of Hv800 (a pure titanium is around Hv150)
and FPF gives off a unique shine of honing dark gray.
● Titanium vessel with surface treatment of "Duratect Black".
*☆* Realizes HV500 hardness by forming a ceramic coating of 20-30μ on titanium.
Furthermore, the glass coating makes it difficult for fingerprints and other stains to adhere."
Now we know the last sentence is not still describing the 'Duratect Black', but it's actually referring back to the FPF coating.

In conclusion, the initialism FPF stands for Finger Print Free, and all of the above seems to imply the PMD56-2772 is MRK plus a 'glass' or 'glassy' coating, which might be a variation of the GMC. So my guess is, the PMD56-2772 is not simply bead blasted after all, but it's some kind of hybrid of MRK and GMC. I say this with some authority, because Citizen used to describe GMC as: "GMC titanium: Citizen's patented "glass multi-layer coating" coats the surface of titanium to achieve twice the hardness of normal titanium. Protects your watch from fingerprints, stains, and scratches." I discussed the technical details of GMC here: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I was bidding on a PMD56-2772 to get a 'sample' of the MRK+FPF, but they were soon bidding more than I was willing to pay. I did buy a MRK+DLC watch though, and in anticipation of that, I thought I'd show a MRK+DLC watch that has seen some usage, it is the 1 of 1700 CC9004-15E (I bought something else though). As stated before in this thread, titanium hardened to 1300Hv+ is not as likely to get scratches, but denting it is still a risk, as can be seen on the bezel of this example.


























































This must have been a very bright light, DLC watches usually look much darker in pictures, like the example below.


































Recently I was actually offered a CC9004-51E locally for 40% of what the owner paid new, but that is still much more than I like to spend on a watch. On Yahoo Auctions they still command upwards of 100,000 yen, which is also about 40% of the Japanese price (240,000 yen + tax), but considering it is caliber F900, it is pretty decent value for a GPS watch.

Just as a reminder, the above watch had a sibling (see below quote).



CitizenPromaster said:


> Launch in Autumn 2015 (scheduled)
> CC9004-51E
> Limited model (1,700 pieces worldwide)
> Super Titanium™ (Duratect DLC + MRK)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Launch in Autumn 2015 (scheduled)
> CC9000-51A
> Limited model (1,300 pieces worldwide)
> Super Titanium™ (Duratect α + MRK)
> 
> Caliber : F900, Eco-Drive, Satellite Timekeeping System・Global Positioning System, Accuracy of ± 5 seconds per month (when not receiving time signals), World Time in 40 Cities, Dual Time Display Function, Chronograph of 1/20-second measurement for 24 hours, Perpetual Calendars, Light-Level Indicator and Power Reserve Indicator, Alarm, WR10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <Black Model> Duratect DLC + MRK (hardness: Hv 1,000 - Hv 1,400) <White Model> Duratect α + MRK (hardness: Hv 2,200 - Hv 2,500)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I'm sticking to the DLC theme in this post. In july Citizen gave some extra info on their "Super Titanium" going to the moon. It turns out they are using DLC on some parts of the landing legs of the Japanese lunar lander.

Auto-translated from シチズン独自の素材「スーパーチタニウム™」製の月着陸船部品の試作品が完成　～民間月面探査プログラム「HAKUTO-R」に採用予定～ ［CITIZEN-シチズン］


> This time, "Titanium™" is a prototype of the landing gear rotary shaft and connecting parts. Light and strong materials are required for the landing legs to withstand the impact of landing on the moon. Furthermore, since the rotating shaft and connecting parts are moving parts, not only hardness but also smoothness is required. The surface hardening technology "Duratect*3 DLC" used for parts is not only resistant to scratches, but also has a very smooth surface. DLC (Diamond-Like Carbon) is a commonly used technology, but Citizen's Duratect DLC improves adhesion by thoroughly sticking to the intermediate material. Surface treatment does not come off easily and has excellent durability. In addition to strength, we have also been particular about the beauty of the material used for wristwatches. The unique titanium processing technology cultivated for the practicality and aesthetics of wristwatches for 50 years is considered to be applicable to spacecraft because it is a smooth material with lightness, strength, and little friction. , Has completed the prototype of the lander parts.
> 
> "HAKUTO-R" is developing lander and rover aiming for landing on the moon in 2022. Engineers from both companies will continue to study the production of flight models.


To capitalize on this moon stuff and 50 years of titanium watches, there is a new DLC watch, the CC4025-82E, or "Citizen / Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary Flagship Model SATELLITE WAVE GPS F950". 550 will be made, 3 will be available in The Netherlands, for 3,950 EUR each. But I don't recommend you buy it as an investment ;-)










Citizen also recently expanded the Eco-Drive One line with a limited edition titanium + DLC watch (200 pieces worldwide), which is slightly thicker at 3.5 mm (in stead of 2.98 mm). There was already a stainless + DLC variant (エコ・ドライブ ワン AR5054-51E［CITIZEN-シチズン腕時計］), but this titanium + DLC variant is new (エコ・ドライブ ワン AR5035-55E［CITIZEN-シチズン腕時計］). Price? 530,000 yen plus tax. As usual the premium for the DLC is 30,000 yen, since the AR5034-58E is 500,000 yen plus tax, but usually the DLC variant (like PMV65-2271 versus JY8025-59E) is Duratect MRK + DLC, so it's actually something extra, but the AR5034-58E is Duratect α, while the AR5035-55E is only DLC, so the premium is odd because you gain DLC but lose the super hard Duratect α.


----------



## Ziptie

Any insight into then Super Titanium Armor finish?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Any insight into then Super Titanium Armor finish?


Super Titanium is titanium coated with unobtanium and fairy dust.

I'm not sure what you are asking, but Super Titanium is just the blanket term for all the surface treatments.


----------



## Ziptie

Super titanium Armor is literally the branding in this 50th anniversary line.






Super Titanium Armor Black Dial Super Titanium Bracelet AW1660-51H | CITIZEN


Citizen’s Armor is an Eco-Drive powered watch with a unique story. The super titanium band and case are accented by a black dial for an evocative armor concept. This bold, sleek timepiece will always stand out from the crowd. The three-hand timepiece features a three-piece case design, making...




www.citizenwatch.com


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Haha okay I never visit the USA website so I didn't know there was a model called Armor. Usually when Super Titanium is unspecified, it is Duratect TIC = titanium carbide. This is confirmed more or less in the text for the other Armor model (Super Titanium Armor | Citizen).
"It sports a silver-tone bracelet band and case, both made of our lightweight Super Titanium, which is 40% lighter and 5 times harder than stainless steel, and is both rust and scratch resistant."

That is the standard line of 200 Hv for stainless steel and 1000~1200 Hv for the Duratect TIC.


----------



## Ziptie

Excellent, thanks. Figured you'd have an opinion.


----------



## Maddog1970

pretty sure this belongs here.....GPS diver.....


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@CC5006-06L



CitizenPromaster said:


> Congrats on your purchase. The bezel is titanium with Duratect DLC to be precise, Diamond Like Carbon, not to be confused with 'ordinary' black ion-plating, and the case is Duratect MRK (gas hardened titanium) + Duratect DLC. For 150,000 yen plus tax they do give you the good stuff on this watch.
> 
> The sibling, CC5001-00W with the green dial (140,000 yen plus tax), has a Duratect TIC bezel (titanium carbide coating) and the case is Duratect MRK. For some reason Citizen doesn't apply the MRK gas hardening to rotating diver bezels, that's my theory anyway.
> 
> Interesting (to me), usually the premium for DLC is 20,000 yen or 30,000 yen (plus tax), but for this duo it's only 10,000 yen.
> Edit: It just dawned on me why the premium is only 10,000 yen, it's because there is no titanium bracelet full of parts that have to be DLC'd.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> @HorologicOptic: It is my understanding the Attesa brand was launched in 1987. The USP for Attesa was indeed titanium, and where at the end of the interview they discuss the future of titanium, not necessarily returning to the old color, but at least differentiating it from stainless steel, well their plans materialised as the following marketing that is currently on the Japanese Citizen Attesa page, the Black Titanium (TM) series.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ATTESA Black Titanium ™ Series
> 
> Atessa launches a new series that opens up the future of titanium.
> "Black Titanium ™ Series" was born as ATTESA's high-end series on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the brand.
> It is a title that is only allowed for ATTESA wearing a hard and beautiful carbon hard film "Duratect DLC".
> We will return to the origin as a brand created to spread titanium and open up the future of titanium.


So I was just checking the specs for some of these Attesa Black Titanium watches, and all are listed as simply titanium + DLC, even the expensive F900 models, with the exception of the F950 model (CC4004-58E), which gets MRK + DLC, even though it is the same price as the two F900 models. アテッサ_ラインナップ［CITIZEN-シチズン時計株式会社］

Interestingly (to me anyway), the non-DLC F950 Attesa (CC4000-59E) is not MRK, but TIC. The premium for DLC is again 30,000 yen, but then you get MRK + DLC instead of TIC.

The two F900 models are 10,000 yen apart (CC9075-52E/CC9075-52F), and the more expensive one (52E) has lighter parts in the bracelet and for the push buttons and crown (and an orange seconds hand). Both are listed as DLC though, so I'm not sure what is going on with the lighter color parts, and if they are not DLC I don't know what they are and why the watch is more expensive. The below video shows both models, and it has a nice scratch resistance comparison between black IP and DLC. Or maybe they are showing the smoothness with a crayon, I have no clue to be honest lol


----------



## CitizenPromaster

So, what was all the DLC foreplay about? August 18, 2016, I wrote in this thread (which was still only one page):



> Speaking of my watch, it's the EU version (marketed as Ti+IP) of the JDM PMP56-2931, which in turn is the more affordable version of the JDM PMP56-2933 from 2006. The 33 was the first Citizen in Duratect MRK + Duratect DLC, which made it very expensive. Only Japanese RC reception though. Now the color difference is very obvious due to DLC. Color diference between AS4050-51E and PM56-2931 could be due to lighting.
> 
> (pictures of the PMP)
> 
> If you haven't realised yet, the PMP is pretty much my grail watch, here is some user experience on wear and tear: Ultimate Skyhawk / Nighthawk PMP56-2933 in Retrospect


Well after 4 years I decided to venture into the world of Yahoo Auctions and get myself my "grail watch"! I've been on the fence about the DLC based on pictures, aesthetically, but now that I see it in real life, it is rather nice. It does stain easily (fingerprints and such), but it certainly has a visual appeal. In my next post I will upload a photo from my phone to compare the TIC and the DLC.

Condition wise, the PMP is from 2006, my AS is from 2008, and the PMP is certainly not in worse shape than my AS. Of course I don't know how much it was worn or how careful the owner was, but I highly doubt a black IP watch would still look this good.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Here is the side by side photo, notice the PMP is still on Tokyo time ^_^ (there is a hair on the PMP)










I like that the PMP has no numerals at all, and the yellow seconds hand and yellow chronograph subdial is what seperates it from the AS and the PMP56-2931 and 2932.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I forgot to (re)post the image that shows the 2933 being a milestone in Citizen's titanium history.










This comes from the Super Titanium page (Technologies for People | CITIZEN Technologies). I get a kick out of owning one of these milestones! It is the granddad of all fully DLC watches from Citizen, up to and including the Attesa Black Titanium series discussed above.
Edit: There were fully DLC Citizens before the 2933, as can be seen further on in this thread. The milestone is specifically for the MRK + DLC combination.

On a side note, there was also a stainless steel + DLC version of the 2933 for China (with Chinese reception, no micro-adjust on the bracelet), the AS8009-53E.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

One unsurprising observation about the dark DLC: it gets pretty hot pretty fast. After a sync attempt (emulator) the 2933 started skipping seconds, so I put it in direct sunlight, but behind a window. After 20 or 30 minutes the caseback was already pretty hot to the touch. These movements have an operating range of -10 to 60 C so it can handle a little heat, but I wouldn’t leave it in direct sunlight for more than 30 minutes at room air temperature without some sort of heatsink against the caseback just to be safe.

Edit: I touched some 60 C water tonight, my watch wasn't anywhere near that. 60 C is painful to my delicate fingers lol. Maybe the caseback was 40~45 C.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

So as you might have noticed I like to post images of worn watches as an indication of the scratch resistance of the titanium surface treatments.

The popular PMD56-2952 is one of the JDM Promaster watches that is Duratect TIC (titanium carbide) rather than Duratect MRK (gas hardened), and it has a DLC bezel. It is also one of the few watches that has the coveted micro-adjust clasp in Duratect TIC. Below is the kind of wear that you can realistically expect with Duratect TIC, which is similar to the wear on my AS4050-51E.




























To be fair these type of scratches are not visible when viewed at arm's length.
When DLC gets damaged, the blank titanium can show through, which is an eyesore to me.
Since Duratect TIC and Duratect DLC are almost equally hard, I think DLC is mostly an aesthetic choice.
I've been wearing my DLC 2933 and so far I still prefer the look of 'blank' titanium with my skin tone.


----------



## Igorek

Anyone got this new Citizen super titanium armor? Is bezel misaligned or is it disign that way? Looks weird.






Super Titanium Armor Black Dial Super Titanium Bracelet AW1660-51H | CITIZEN


Citizen’s Armor is an Eco-Drive powered watch with a unique story. The super titanium band and case are accented by a black dial for an evocative armor concept. This bold, sleek timepiece will always stand out from the crowd. The three-hand timepiece features a three-piece case design, making...




www.citizenwatch.com


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Igorek said:


> Anyone got this new Citizen super titanium armor? Is bezel misaligned or is it disign that way? Looks weird.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Super Titanium Armor Black Dial Super Titanium Bracelet AW1660-51H | CITIZEN
> 
> 
> Citizen’s Armor is an Eco-Drive powered watch with a unique story. The super titanium band and case are accented by a black dial for an evocative armor concept. This bold, sleek timepiece will always stand out from the crowd. The three-hand timepiece features a three-piece case design, making...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.citizenwatch.com


"features a one-way rotating bezel", so the photographer just didn't pay attention to the alignment


----------



## CitizenPromaster

This fully DLC Attesa ATP53-2703 actually came out before the Promaster 2933, in December 2005 (MSRP 110,000 yen [excl. 5% tax]), but it was only DLC, not MRK + DLC, which is what makes the 2933 a milestone. Anyway, this example has been abused!
































































I think it was worn by a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle who fought with Shredder...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

There is a new surface treatment variation, Duratect MRK Gold:

"Duratect: Duratect is Citizen's original hardening technology. It is a general term for technologies that increase the surface hardness of metals such as stainless steel and titanium and protect the watch body from scratches and small scratches due to its excellent wear resistance, and keep the material shining for a long time. Duratect MRK can protect the watch from scratches by infiltrating the titanium material with gas from the surface and hardening the surface layer of the material itself. Duratect MRK Gold is a technology that realizes metal allergy resistance while being golden. In 2019, ash gold color was added to Duratect MRK to realize a variety of exterior expressions. Achieves Vickers hardness of 1,300-1,500Hv. In addition, Citizen's Duratect DLC has improved adhesion by sticking to the intermediate material, and it is hard to peel off and has excellent durability. Not only is it resistant to scratches, but it also features a black color with a beautiful luster and a very smooth feel. Achieves Vickers hardness of 1,000-1,400Hv. (Stainless steel Vickers hardness is about 200Hv)."

They say since 2019, I checked and I think the debut was the Moon Gold watch (『シチズン アテッサ』より　表面硬化技術「デュラテクトMRK」の新色を採用した　「MOON GOLD」限定モデルが発売 ［CITIZEN-シチズン］), but I only noticed it for the first time on these new releases:



CitizenPromaster said:


> Citizen is continuing the new design theme of the Promaster Sky GPS watches to include new RC models. The good news, they are still Duratect MRK, a new variant even, MRK Gold and some are MRK + DLC, the bad news, no micro-adjust clasp and pricy.
> 
> View attachment 15462835
> 
> 
> I'm expecting the old crop of "Pilot" watches (with the internal E6B slide rule / flight computer) will soon be discontinued.
> 
> View attachment 15462837


The current Duratect page (feel free to use google translate -> シチズン テクノロジーサイト［CITIZEN-腕時計］) of course mentions Duratect MRK Gold, but it shares no details on how they achieve the color change during the gas hardening of the surface, and the press release of the Moon Gold watch only mentions "Gold has been added to Citizen's original surface hardening technology "Duratect MRK" that first appeared in 1999, realizing a wider variety of exterior expressions than ever before." I don't know if we have to take that literally as in adding gold to the nitrogen and oxygen gas mixture. No matter the secret sauce, it's an interesting development, and I was afraid they were going to phase out MRK on the JDM Promaster Sky watches, but luckily that is not the case. Like I said in the quote, I do fear these new Pilot watches spell the end for my beloved "knurled bezel" Pilot watches, but to be fair that case design has been on the market since 2006 and I imagine sales have all but stopped, judging by some stock examples being offered with 60% discount on Yahoo Auctions.

I'm not a fan of gold colored watches, but this "pale gold" (champagne, really) MRK Gold has its charm.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I mentioned before ìn this thread that the new policy for some Promaster watches is one model for all of the world, without a micro-adjust clasp, but with MRK if the model is designed as such. So not like it was before, a MRK variant for Japan and a TIC variant for Europe.

Of the above mentioned four new Promaster Sky releases, only the AT8195-85L is being released in Europe, but it IS listed as DLC + MRK. So good development I guess.












CitizenPromaster said:


> But the plot thickens. Either Citizen is becoming more sneaky or more generous.
> 
> Recently they released a new Promaster Sky GPS. To my surprise they use the same model number for Japan and EU, they normally don't do that. But the only differences I can find on the pictures is for Japan the dial says MADE IN JAPAN F900-S145398 Y and the EU version says JAPAN MOV'T-F900-S146017 TY (a different case number and therefor possibly a different case material). The JDM CC9020-54E is marketed as Duratect MRK, though AFAIK the caseback only says Satellite Wave. I see no indication that the EU CC9020-54E is also MRK, they just list it as titanium. Would they really go through the trouble of making two versions and changing only the marking on the dial?????
> In the past they've saved the best for the domestic market. As reported, often the JDM Promasters, besides being Duratect MRK, also get a micro-adjustable clasp. The JDM version of this watch doesn't even have that, so there's even less obvious difference.
> 
> I have noticed in Japan the CC9020-54E is listed at 230,000 yen excl. tax = 2,020 EUR. Here in Holland, including 21% tax it is listed as 1,595 EUR. I can't explain the difference unless the EU watch is non-MRK (less production cost).
> Amazon.co.jp discounts it from 248,400 (incl. 8% tax) with -20% to 198,700 yen = 1,745 euro, still a significant difference.
> Extra cost for the DLC version CC9025-51E is 15,000 yen is 132 EUR (excl. tax). In EU the premium is 100 EUR (incl. tax) for the CC9025-51E.
> 
> My gut is telling me Citizen is just being more sneaky about their 'better' JDM Promasters. Maybe they have streamlined the model numbers to throw us off the trail?
> 
> I fear the EU 'Japan Mov't' is non-MRK. Because the alternative conclusion is that they are offering the Europeans MRK on a Promaster for the first time, AND at a lower price than to their Japanese customers...


The price difference is back on this AT8195-85L, but this time there is no doubt about the specs being the same, and also the dials are the same (JAPAN MOV'T), but after studying the Japanese Domestic Market a little bit I can explain the difference. The MSRP is 143,000 yen incl. 10% tax in Japan which is around 1,160 euro, the MSRP is 895 euro incl. 21% tax in Holland. However, I've noticed even relatively new watches are offered with 30% discount on MSRP in Japan, in Holland you can forget about any discount at a Citizen dealer, so the prices level out as (1,160 / 1,1) * 0,7 = 739 and (895 / 1,21) = 739.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

While 'we' are still on the subject of DLC... Citizen really likes doing Limited Edition DLC watches, I recently learned about a DLC SST 1/1000s Chronograph (1500 pieces) thanks to Mitch100 who showed us his JW0035-51E:








Citizen Promaster SST's


I am quite keen on the Citizen Promaster SST's and they are not seen on here much, so I thought I would post about them. SST stands for Split Second Timing. I have three and will post about them in order of purchase. Here is my first, the Promaster SST JW0035-51E. This was a limited edition and...




www.watchuseek.com




And parv discovered Hong Kong is offering an Asia Limited Model of the NY titanium diver, only 500 pieces of this DLC NY0105-81E: CITIZEN WATCH
It is 75% more expensive than the regular titanium model, but if the cult status of the black PVD titanium Aqualand C028 is anything to go by, this DLC NY might become a collector's item.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I forgot to (re)post the image that shows the 2933 being a milestone in Citizen's titanium history.


What are the odds, two weeks after re-posting this, the rare 1,300m diver comes up for sale on Yahoo Japan Auctions.










































































Starting bid 180,000 yen, buyout price 280,000 yen. I'm glad my titanium milestone Citizen is not crazy money like that!


----------



## Ziptie

I have a Duratect DLC CB0177-31e on the way. My first DLC other than bezels on the -2952 and -2773, both sold.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Here we see an attempt to keep the cost down I guess. The 'blank' titanium version CB0171-97E is Duratect MRK, but the CB0177-58E and CB0177-31E are DLC only, not MRK + DLC.

In a way this makes sense, as MRK + DLC has the same surface hardness as DLC only (both 1000 ~1400 Hv), since DLC is the top surface. So MRK + DLC is somewhat overkill, though they still do it on some watches, so I guess there is some benefit to having the deeper hardened layer beneath the thin DLC coating.

I think the CB0171-97E is better value though, MRK case + MRK bracelet for the same price as the CB0177-31E with DLC case + leather strap. But judging by your profile photo you are not a fan of bracelets, Ziptie? Or you like the DLC but didn't feel like paying an additional 30,000 yen plus tax for the titanium DLC bracelet on the CB0177-58E?

All of these watches are "CASED IN THAILAND" by the way. Not that it matters, but that begs the question, is the surface treatment also done in Thailand? Or only the assembly? And is setting up a facility in Thailand that much cheaper in the long run due to reduced labour costs, or does it have something to do with import taxes, like when you assemble cars locally? So many questions, so little answers lol

As a visual reminder of the surface treatments:


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> What is better than a Citizen watch made from titanium?
> A Citizen watch made from titanium that has the word TITANIUM stamped into the titanium so that you know the watch is made from titanium!
> Porsche Design eat your heart out


As you can see I posted some Citizens before that have the word TITANIUM embossed in the case. Well there is another Citizen like that, from the subbrand ADEC.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

> I've noticed even relatively new watches are offered with 30% discount on MSRP in Japan


To proof the above point, the CB0177-31E was released THIS month, it has a MSRP of 70,000 yen (77,000 yen incl. tax), and here it is brand new for 52,000 yen:


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> To proof the above point, the CB0177-31E was released THIS month, it has a MSRP of 70,000 yen (77,000 yen incl. tax), and here it is brand new for 52,000 yen:
> View attachment 15470770


That's the one I bought. I do like bracelets, but in this case went for the DLC and red highlights.

_cough_ I also already have a CB0171-11L. And if I can find one, I'll probably flip it for a CB0170-81L, as I prefer the face and typography on that model. I have not looked into which flavor of Duratect these versions are.










I think Citizen has a real winner with this series, and for me they're the true successor to the PMD56 promaster land /tough models. Slightly larger, which suits me, and international radio sync is a complete game changer. We would be doing a public service by assembling a table of all of the model (0170, 0171, 0177) variations with face color, strap, Duratect, etc.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I agree it's a great watch, and even though it is Promaster Land, they use the nice "flieger" hands from the Promaster Sky series. Like you, I just don't see why mont-bell has to be involved, never even heard of them before seeing the brand name on a Citizen. I wonder who is paying who for this joint marketing.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Ziptie, you can't just tell us you scored one of the rarest Citizen Promaster watches, which is both MRK and DLC (the second model ever after the PMP56-2933), and leave it at that!
> Where did you find it? Were you searching for it or did you stumble across it? How are you liking it? What are your plans for it?
> You know actual Japanese fighter pilots wore these? I read that on a watch forum somewhere. A guy met a JPN fighter pilot at a US airbase who was wearing one of this trio.


"My first DLC other than bezels on the -2952 and -2773, both sold."
Your first DLC, Ziptie? What happened to your PMD56-2973?
Or by "2773" do you mean you sold your "2973"?
But thas was fully DLC, not just the bezel, as I've mentioned before on page 10 when you said:
"Here's a recent score, a PMD56-2973. I believe it's MRK with a DLC bezel. Love the dark color."
and I said: "The PMD56-2973 is fully DLC by the way, hence the dark color."

By the way, I found the quote about the Japanese fighter pilot.



Desertpilot said:


> Excellent, thanks again guys. I'm at Misawa AB for Mon-Fri and noticed that one of the Japanese F-2 pilot's had a PMD-56-2973!
> 
> Asked him how he liked it and he responded that it is more useful to him than his Rolex... ;-)
> 
> I'll be picking mine up on Friday. :-!
> 
> Thanks again everyone!
> 
> DP


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The clasp of this PMV65-2271 proofs that you CAN scratch Duratect MRK.


----------



## Triku

CitizenPromaster said:


> The clasp of this PMV65-2271 proofs that you CAN scratch Duratect MRK.
> 
> View attachment 15473241


Is that a 22/20 mm brazelet clasp ( 20mm clasp).
It is perfect to fit the CB0171 or CB0170.


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> "My first DLC other than bezels on the -2952 and -2773, both sold."
> Your first DLC, Ziptie? What happened to your PMD56-2973?
> Or by "2773" do you mean you sold your "2973"?
> But thas was fully DLC, not just the bezel, as I've mentioned before on page 10 when you said:
> "Here's a recent score, a PMD56-2973. I believe it's MRK with a DLC bezel. Love the dark color."
> and I said: "The PMD56-2973 is fully DLC by the way, hence the dark color."
> 
> By the way, I found the quote about the Japanese fighter pilot.


Ha, good memory. Yes, sold the -2973. And I'd forgotten it was MRK+DLC, as the MRK was what stuck in my mind. I'm selling all of my PMD56 models, great though they are.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ah, I found your ad on WUS. What happened to "It's on my short list of long-term keepers"???? Well I hope the new owner enjoys it, it's a great collector's item...


----------



## Ziptie

I love both versions, but I just wasn't wearing them much. Honestly, the CB017x series is getting 80% of my wrist time now. Wide enough, flat, and all the other features I need. I'm selling down my collection, expect I'll end up with 10 or so pieces total.

Buyers of all of my PMD56 line have been super delighted, and I want them to go where they'll be appreciated, rather than living in my box unworn.










(I don't feel that way about more common or less pieces.)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I get it, that's why I sold my "spare" new in box AS4050-51E, it deserved to be worn, and the buyer was super delighted too.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Remember Duratect α? Well there have been a couple of Citizens (some of which are stainless steel) that have this surface treatment which is as hard as sapphire (Hv 2,200 - Hv 2,500) but as far as I'm aware there has only ever been 1 Duratect α + MRK watch, and that is the CC9000-51A, or as aafanatic calls it, the White Owl. Here are some pictures of 1 of the 1300 produced watches (for sale on Yahoo Auctions). They cost around 90,000 yen used, but they are not likely to have significant scratches even when used, since you don't often come across objects harder than Hv 2,200. The seller of this example says: "Since I used it occasionally, there are small scratches, but I think it is a beautiful product with no noticeable scratches or stains."

I don't think you will ever be able to get another used Duratect α Citizen for less than 100,000 yen (~ 1000 USD), because the other models are The Citizen, Eco-Drive One, Caliber 0100 etc.




























Considering the hardness of Duratect α, I'm guessing it is some variant of titanium nitride (TiN).
Wikipedia: "There are several commercially used variants of TiN that have been developed since 2010, such as titanium carbon nitride (TiCN), titanium aluminium nitride (TiAlN or AlTiN), and titanium aluminum carbon nitride, which may be used individually or in alternating layers with TiN. These coatings offer similar or superior enhancements in corrosion resistance and hardness, and additional colors ranging from light gray to nearly black, to a dark iridescent bluish-purple depending on the exact process of application."


----------



## aafanatic

This one has a little of both: Duratect Gold and DLC
Attesa f950 CC4004-66E "Shadow of the Moon"



and Duratect Alpha
Attesa f900 CC9000-51A "White Owl"


----------



## aafanatic

Here's some MRK Gold + DLC on the bezel
Attesa f950 CC4004-66P "Moon Gold"


----------



## aafanatic

This is the new ACT Line with Duratect Titanium Carbite Duratect DLC (Silver / Black)
Attesa CC3085-51A f150


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Thanks for posting, aafanatic, Citizen is really being creative with their surface treatments. The Moon theme might not be to everyone's taste, but it is well-thought-out.

By the way, dear readers, aafanatic is very careful with his watches, so he can't tell us anything about scratch resistance, because he doesn't allow them to get scratched ^_^

Maybe I can e-mail Citizen to make a custom MRK Gold PMV65-2271 for me... That would be awesome.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Some visuals of a used CC4004-66P (150,000 yen + tax, while MSRP was 240,000 yen + tax), this guy managed to scratch the sapphire, but the MRK Gold seems fine.
You can still get new examples, with the usual discount of 30%, so 168,000 yen + tax. But to get it to my door, with Dutch VAT, it would become 1,800 EUR (2,100 USD), and that is more than I should be spending on a watch. However, if I had to choose between the Moon Gold CC4004-66P for 1,800 EUR and the limited edition Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary CC4025-82E for 3,950 EUR, then it's an obvious choice!


































































And here is another used example, I am posting all these pictures to get a feel for the tone of the MRK Gold.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I need me one of these displays!










It's a screenshot from below video. I don't speak Chinese, but it is still entertaining.





And this video takes a look at many of the new releases that were discussed in the past few pages.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> The current Duratect page (feel free to use google translate -> シチズン テクノロジーサイト［CITIZEN-腕時計］) of course mentions Duratect MRK Gold, but it shares no details on how they achieve the color change during the gas hardening of the surface, and the press release of the Moon Gold watch only mentions "Gold has been added to Citizen's original surface hardening technology "Duratect MRK" that first appeared in 1999, realizing a wider variety of exterior expressions than ever before." I don't know if we have to take that literally as in adding gold to the nitrogen and oxygen gas mixture. No matter the secret sauce, it's an interesting development, and I was afraid they were going to phase out MRK on the JDM Promaster Sky watches, but luckily that is not the case.


After some more digging, it seems that MRK Gold is simply MRK + PVD, so MRK with an additional Physical Vapor Deposition coating, which is most likely a very thin layer of actual gold.










The Japanese text in the image above says Duratect, in case you wondered. For the technical aspects, see below quote from page 9 of this thread.



CitizenPromaster said:


> I have some free time this week, so I was able to do more research, and I discovered that Citizen actually has a division that will do surface treatment for anyone that is willing to pay, and they have been doing that for a long time!
> 
> It is called *Citizen Coating Service*, which is a surface treatment service. Their Japanese website actually is more detailed than Citizens marketing talk, so it should clear up any remaining confusion. Below I am quoting translated passages.
> 
> "Citizen's thin film coating began in 1974 with a study on the practical application of ion plating technology commissioned by the New Technology Development Corporation (currently the Japan Science and Technology Agency). In 1976, we succeeded in the world's first practical application to watch exterior parts, and after commercialization in Japan and overseas, we started a contract coating service in 1983. Since then, we have been working on the development and commercialization of DLC (hard carbon film) with dramatically improved adhesion and MRK (titanium surface hardening technology) for hardening titanium. In addition, the coating with hard properties is named DURATECT ™, and we are working on new value creation. We would like to respond to your requests with surface treatment technology that combines strength and beauty used in the exterior of these Citizen watches."
> 
> ""Duratect ™" is a generic name of Citizen's unique surface hardening technology that protects the original beauty of the material from scratches by applying a special processing to the surface of the material. Citizen has obtained numerous patents for this "Duratect". This technology, born from the passion of technicians who want to use precious wrist watches for a long time and research over many years, continues to create products that are resistant to scratches, are always beautiful, and are gentle on the skin."
> 
> They offer three services, PVD, Duratect DLC, and Duratect MRK. All three are surface treatment, but PVD and DLC are bonded coatings, while MRK is "gas curing" or "gas hardening", which I understand to be diffusion hardening (see Wikipedia). Here is what they have to say about the three options.
> 
> *PVD coating*
> 
> "PVD coating is a method of physically forming a thin film on a substrate by bombarding solid materials with energy such as plasma. It is called dry plating, and it is possible to form a thin and hard film compared to wet plating which is a general plating method."
> 
> "Citizen has been developing coating technology for use in watch exteriors. We continue to pursue coatings that keep the appearance as beautiful as possible, as well as functional aspects.
> As a result, a coating with high adhesion, good color development and good coverage has been realized."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The translation from top to bottom is as follows (left side <--> middle <--> right side):
> 1 layer type <--> ..................... <--> Multi-layer type
> 
> -Gold color <--> ....................... <--> Gold color
> -Black color <--> ....................... <--> couldn't translate
> -Gray <--> ................................<--> Pink Gold
> -Dark Blue
> 
> ...................<--> Precious metals <--> Au, Pt, etc
> TiN, TiC, etc <--> Hardening layer <--> TiN, TiC, etc
> Base material <--> ......................<--> Base material
> 
> There are several colors available, ranging from gold, to silver, to pink, to blue.
> 
> Application (quoted): hard, color, abrasion resistance, surpression of metal allergy, protect from small scratches, <coat with> precious metals.
> Process (quoted): ion plating, sputtering.
> Materials (quoted): titanium, stainless steel, metal + Cr plated product, ceramic.
> 
> Conclusion:
> What Citizen calls PVD here, is the technology behind the so-called Super Titanium/Duratect TIC.
> 
> *DLC coating*
> 
> "DLC is an abbreviation for Diamond-Like Carbon, which refers to an amorphous carbon hard film composed mainly of carbon and hydrogen, and is also called amorphous carbon.
> DLC is very hard and has excellent wear resistance, has a great effect on surface modification of various materials, and is used in many products including industrial products."
> 
> "DLC is a commonly used technology and stands for Diamond-Like Carbon. It is not only resistant to scratches, but also very smooth to touch. Citizen's Duratect ™ DLC differs from general DLC in that it adheres to intermediate materials thoroughly to improve adhesion. It is hard to peel off and has excellent durability. Furthermore, we pursue not only hardness but also beauty. Based on the fearless black color, it achieves an elegant and glossy shine up to the coloring of details."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Translation:
> DLC
> Middle level <--> 1~2 micron degree
> Substrate
> 
> Additional info: "Superior adhesion is achieved by performing a unique pretreatment before forming the DLC film."
> 
> Application (quoted): stiff, slip, color, corrosion resistance, abrasion resistance, surpress metal allergy, protect from small scratches.
> Process (quoted): plasma CVD
> Materials (quoted): titanium, stainless steel, metal + Cr plated product, ceramic.
> 
> Conclusion:
> We are all familiar with DLC, which they now call Black Titanium in the Attesa line.
> 
> *Duratect MRK (Titanium surface hardening treatment)*
> 
> "Unlike regular coating, Duratect ™ MRK uses a technology to harden the surface of the material itself, so it can protect the watch from scratches and other damage. It is often used in sports watches used in harsh environments. Citizen's "Duratect ™" started with the development of this Duratec ™ MRK and was patented in 1997. It is still evolving."
> 
> "Gas curing technology
> 
> A technique in which a gas is sealed in a vacuum device and subjected to heat treatment to allow the gas to permeate the material and form a hardened layer on the surface. It is particularly resistant to scratches and is resistant to scratches even in hard use environments."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: hardening layer (MRK)
> 
> Additional info: "It cannot peel because it is not a film. It doesn't change the surface texture. The cured part is tens of times thicker than the coating, and is resistant to scratching."
> 
> Application (quoted): hardness, corrosion resistance, abrasion resistance, surpression of metal allergy, hard to be scratched, protect from small scratches, titanium hard.
> Process (quoted): heat treatment
> Materials (quoted): titanium
> 
> Conclusion:
> Duratect MRK really is something completely different to Duratect TIC, which is now more clear.
> I still don't know what the letters MRK stand for though lol


----------



## Igorek

Anyone owns and have photos of Attesa cc4000?


----------



## aafanatic

The 4000 has the same case and crystal as the CC4004-66p/e which are the best I have. The crystal is slightly domed and just plain better than any of my previous Attesa.The hands on the 4000 are a little narrower/ straight. The lume on my cc4004 is better than my cc90015 which = all night;-) Do you have a specific questions?

Some nice irl photos here from TicTokhttp:CC4000-59E


----------



## Igorek

I am interested in the blue version (CC4000-59L) and just wanted some opinions on it. It's a little pricy watch and wanted to know what I'm getting.
Also, what is the size without crowns?
Thanks


----------



## Igorek

CitizenPromaster said:


> Some visuals of a used CC4004-66P (150,000 yen + tax, while MSRP was 240,000 yen + tax), this guy managed to scratch the sapphire, but the MRK Gold seems fine.
> You can still get new examples, with the usual discount of 30%, so 168,000 yen + tax. But to get it to my door, with Dutch VAT, it would become 1,800 EUR (2,100 USD), and that is more than I should be spending on a watch. However, if I had to choose between the Moon Gold CC4004-66P for 1,800 EUR and the limited edition Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary CC4025-82E for 3,950 EUR, then it's an obvious choice!
> 
> View attachment 15474683
> 
> 
> View attachment 15474687


You managed to see that microscopic scratch but did you see those letters? It's like someone was chewing them. ?
Unless it is a light reflection


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Igorek said:


> You managed to see that microscopic scratch but did you see those letters? It's like someone was chewing them. 😀
> Unless it is a light reflection


The scratch was highlighted by the seller, but yeah I noticed the weird letters but I also concluded they are reflections.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I need me one of these displays!
> 
> View attachment 15474778
> 
> 
> It's a screenshot from below video. I don't speak Chinese, but it is still entertaining.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this video takes a look at many of the new releases that were discussed in the past few pages.


I just called Citizen Coating Service in Japan and I was actually able to speak to someone who speaks English. He was very friendly.

I first asked him what do the letters MRK stand for in Duratect MRK, and he checked with a colleague, but as I kind of expected, MRK doesn't stand for anything, it just sounded nice.

I then asked him if I could buy samples of the surface treatments like in the display, but after checking if I was a business, which I am not, the answer was no, samples are not for sale.

If I was a business interested in having my products coated, I'm sure they would send me samples, but I doubt the samples for potential clients are actual watch cases, I imagine they are just small titanium plates or something like that. But I'm not gonna pose as something I'm not and waste these people's time.

In any case, I can finally put the MRK intitialism to bed, because if this Citizen subsidiary specialised in surface treatments doesn't know, then no one does!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Someone mated the case of the PMV65-2272 - which has a white rotating slide rule, a DLC bezel + DLC crown + DLC push buttons and comes with a black leather strap - to the bracelet of the PMV65-2271.


































Original configurations:


----------



## Ziptie

Posted a data dump of the CB0170 / CB0171 / CB0177 models. Citizen CB0170 / CB0171 / CB0177 family


----------



## Ziptie

And if you’re super excited about Duratect MRK, you can find the CB0171-97E bracelet model on Buyee.jp for under $500.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> And if you're super excited about Duratect MRK, you can find the CB0171-97E bracelet model on Buyee.jp for under $500.


I think I'm the only one super excited about Duratect MRK lol


----------



## Triku

CitizenPromaster said:


> I think I'm the only one super excited about Duratect MRK lol


No, you are not the only one. 
That CB0171 is calling me. I have two PMD56 and will sell one and the 0171 could be my next watch. 
The Non ajustable clasp is a deal breaker right now but could find a Titanium 20mm clasp from other model ( no MRK).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Triku said:


> No, you are not the only one.
> That CB0171 is calling me. I have two PMD56 and will sell one and the 0171 could be my next watch.
> The Non ajustable clasp is a deal breaker right now but could find a Titanium 20mm clasp from other model ( no MRK).


Yes, it's a real shame the micro-adjust clasp is being discontinued, even on the most expensive models. I'm sure people are willing to pay 5,000 yen extra for it, if cost is the issue for Citizen.
Maybe since these are now often world models rather than JDM models, they don't want the rest of the world to find out what they were missing out on?
A cover-up of past features seems unlikely though, so I have no clue what Citizen's motivation is to discontinue the micro-adjust clasp. Doesn't make any sense.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

As some of you know, the Attesa models often have a different kind of micro-adjust clasp, or as Citizen calls it "fit adjuster". You adjust it via the same push buttons that open the clasp, so no second set of push buttons as on the Promaster "fit adjuster". I came across this very obscure limited edition (1000 pieces) model today, with a DLC bezel and a weird rotating inner dial: "By using the city name written on the dial and the number on the 24-hour disk, you can know the time of each city in the world." It is the ATD53-2912 with caliber H115.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> This fully DLC Attesa ATP53-2703 actually came out before the Promaster 2933, in December 2005 (MSRP 110,000 yen [excl. 5% tax]), but it was only DLC, not MRK + DLC, which is what makes the 2933 a milestone. Anyway, this example has been abused!


Here is another DLC Attesa (20th anniversary limited edition, the ATV53-2834 from 2007) that has been abused.
It looks like they tried to touch up the bezel with black marker? Very weird.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Just to remind everyone that it IS possible to keep a DLC Attesa in good condition, here is another limited edition (3000 pieces), the ATV53-2933.
It was 150,000 yen plus tax in 2009. It's the only Citizen I can think of that has caliber U680 AND a dive timer (inner bezel, rotated by the crown at 8), it even has a "pearl".
Water resistance of 10 bar isn't all that impressive though, but the case and bracelet are pretty interesting looking. This example is on Yahoo for 54,800 yen.


























Factory image


----------



## CitizenPromaster

With all these fancy, complex DLC Attesa's you would almost forget the small 32 mm men's Attesa's from the early to mid 90s that I showed earlier on page 8.

Today I spotted 'my' Attesa on Yahoo, but without the Roman numerals.










The past years I hadn't found the JDM catalogue with my model in it, because a few years ago I only downloaded the 1994 catalogue since my serial number starts with 49 (September 1994), but today I downloaded the 1995 catalogue and it turns out it was actually a 1995 model and mine was just early production. However, below I am showing the twin models (+ women's versions) in the 1996 catalogue, because that year Citizen started using the feature labels that are still in use today, and next to my watch you can see the GMC label, which confirms that my little Attesa is indeed GMC (Glass Multi-layer Coating). I now also know why the crystal isn't scratched up after 25+ years, because the Japanese characters below the model code say "sapphire glass". Wow!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

There aren't a lot of fully DLC divers, so I wanted to point out that there is a limited edition GMT Diver based on the below models.










The model number is BJ7115-85E and it is part of a collection in honor of the "Brave Blossoms" Japanese rugby team.
It has a Duratect Sakura Pink bezel and the case and bracelet are Duratect DLC.
Only 600 were made, but I saw one website that has three in stock, so I'm sure it's still widely available.
The premium for the DLC is 30,000 yen as usual, so MSRP is 90,000 yen (excluding 10% tax).










I mentioned another fully DLC diver recently.



CitizenPromaster said:


> And parv discovered Hong Kong is offering an Asia Limited Model of the NY titanium diver, only 500 pieces of this DLC NY0105-81E: CITIZEN WATCH
> It is 75% more expensive than the regular titanium model, but if the cult status of the black PVD titanium Aqualand C028 is anything to go by, this DLC NY might become a collector's item.


Here is a picture from the web, even the Citizen "scuba tank" is black lol


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I just remembered there was another fully titanium DLC diver that is quite rare and desirable: Citizen PMX56-3002 (JDM Pro-Master DLC) Review

The reviewer jbdan says:


> My history with Citizen's Duratect+DLC proves that hairline scratches are essentially a thing of the past. You think you have one then rub it clean and it actually was the residue from whatever rubbed against it. BUT DLC is not scratch proof. I scratched my Attesa pretty good on a piece of galvanized steel. And yes it showed a slight tinge of dirty light gray Ti.
> The DLC coating is very slick....it reminds me of Teflon on a non-stick pan. This obviously enhances it's scratch resistance and imo is DLC's strongest attribute against scratches.


And:


> About the DLC: I've owned an all Duratect+DLC Attesa and it is really tough stuff. After 6 months of wearing my Attesa (and I am very rough on my watches) I had one, yes 1, scratch on the side of the bracelet from a very hard knock on galvanized steel. There was not even one hairline scratch on the clasp from desk diving. Pretty amazing, but some people wouldn't care about this. SS can be refinished...DLC cannot.


Considering the above testimony, imagine how people have abused the previously shown DLC watches!

He also says:


> As for appearance, the way this watch looks in some of the pictures is very deceiving. By deceiving I mean this watch really takes on the appearance of it's surroundings and is very dependent on the type of lighting you are in. This is sweet! It's "chameleon-like" qualities are something I really like.
> Sometimes it almost looks as if you are wearing a "stained" SS watch. Sometimes it is gunmetal black. Sometimes it looks inky black. The polished areas (case sides, bracelet link ends and sides, clasp sides including buttons) are polished to a mirror-like finish.


There we have it, "gunmetal". Unfortunately it's not easy to own a gun here in Holland, and even if I owned one, we aren't allowed to post pictures of guns on WUS. So if your faint heart can cope, go ahead and click on this video to see a nice example of a "blued" Colt 1911, and you will see that there are indeed many similarities between DLC and bluing. It doesn't change the finish, polished remains polished, brushed remains brushed, and it can take on a different appearance according to the light conditions. As you know blued steel is usually not actually blue, but blackish, "gunmetal grey" oxide. I think a dark metal surface is one of the most pleasing things to look at, so I'm starting to really love the look of these DLC watches.


----------



## Alansmithee

What coating does the F900 have? One for cheap in a local discount store I might pick up.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Alansmithee said:


> What coating does the F900 have? One for cheap in a local discount store I might pick up.


F900 is the movement (GPS), I'm afraid that doesn't tell me what model it is so I can't comment on the exact coating.


----------



## Alansmithee

CitizenPromaster said:


> F900 is the movement (GPS), I'm afraid that doesn't tell me what model it is so I can't comment on the exact coating.


Did not know that so you learn something new every day - I think it is a CC9008-50E - does that help?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Alansmithee said:


> Did not know that so you learn something new every day - I think it is a CC9008-50E - does that help?


That certainly helps! It is Duratect TIC, so titanium carbide coating with Vickers hardness of 1000 ~ 1200 Hv.
It is the standard coating for titanium Citizens these days, but it is a high standard nonetheless ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Here is the first "Duratect" watch in the wild



















They still want 23,000 yen for it on Yahoo Japan Auction, even without bracelet. The PMX56-2592 has also been offered on WUS in the past, but I think it's pretty rare.


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> Here is the first "Duratect" watch in the wild
> 
> View attachment 15510364
> 
> 
> View attachment 15510366
> 
> 
> They still want 23,000 yen for it on Yahoo Japan Auction, even without bracelet. The PMX56-2592 has also been offered on WUS in the past, but I think it's pretty rare.


They come up with some regularity on yahoo.jp, often cheaper. Sometimes they're listed as simply GMT models or by the B876 movement, without the full model number. I've seen the models with the red and teal faces offered. This one just ended.










【K-8335】CITIZEN シチズン Eco-Drive エコドラ... - ヤフオク!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@Ziptie haha I knew you'd be more informed on these


----------



## Man of Kent

If only that model didn't have those 4 bolt features. Totally ruin the look.


----------



## Alansmithee

CitizenPromaster said:


> That certainly helps! It is Duratect TIC, so titanium carbide coating with Vickers hardness of 1000 ~ 1200 Hv.
> It is the standard coating for titanium Citizens these days, but it is a high standard nonetheless ;-)


So I was looking at the Eco-Drive One and there is a limited edition made of Altic and they said it's 1900 Hv - what do you make of it?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Alansmithee said:


> So I was looking at the Eco-Drive One and there is a limited edition made of Altic and they said it's 1900 Hv - what do you make of it?


I can only quote the Japanese page about the Eco-Drive One AR5044-03E (auto-translated from 限定モデル | Eco-Drive One スペシャルサイト [シチズン腕時計]):
_The bezel, which is the outline of the wristwatch, uses the hard material "Altic *1" that creates a rich expression depending on the viewing angle. The black color of the bezel and the silver color of the case create a fascinating contrast, creating a wristwatch with a sharp and delicate look in its elegant appearance. The world's thinnest *2 2.98mm (design value) photovoltaic watch Eco-Drive One, which includes a 1.00mm-thin photovoltaic movement. There are only 1,000 beauty here in the world.

The pursuit of thinness is also the pursuit of beauty. However, the biggest problem is the strength of the material used.
In this model, we have adopted a new material "Altic" that can achieve both thinness and strength. Altic, an alloy of aluminum and titanium, boasts a Vickers hardness (HV) of approximately 1,900, and is a material that is also light and resistant to scratches. This material, which is the world's first *3 to be used in a wristwatch, has completed a thin and beautiful work.

*1 A composite material of alumina + titanium carbide, which is extremely hard with a Vickers hardness (HV) of approximately 1,900, and a beautiful mirror surface can be obtained by polishing.
*2 As an analog photovoltaic clock. As of February 2018, according to our research.
*3 According to our research._


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I have to share this titanium oddity, officially marketed as titanium carbide as early as 2000, the PMH56-2531 (grey dial as below) and PMH56-2532 (blue dial), 60,000 yen plus tax when new.

So what is odd about it? It is Eco-Drive Duo, both solar and self-winding, like Seiko Kinetic.


































They also used it for the Attesa line.


















I knew about Eco-Drive Thermo, but I have no active memories of Eco-Drive Duo.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Here is another DLC Attesa (20th anniversary limited edition, the ATV53-2834 from 2007) that has been abused.
> It looks like they tried to touch up the bezel with black marker? Very weird.
> 
> View attachment 15486236
> 
> View attachment 15486237
> 
> View attachment 15486238
> 
> View attachment 15486239
> 
> View attachment 15486240
> 
> View attachment 15486241
> 
> View attachment 15486243


The ATV53-2834, which cost 130,000 yen plus 6,500 yen tax and of which 3,000 pieces were made, had a no frills predecessor in 2005/2006. It was a DLC version of the 'basic' RC Attesa model, which got the name ATD53-2723 and of which 1,500 pieces were made, sold at a hefty 90,000 yen plus 4,500 yen tax. One is currently on Yahoo Japan Auction and with 4 days left there are already 22 bids and 59 people are following the auction, usually for Citizens it is 20 followers at most!
Edit: The 47th and highest bid was 16,500 yen, still a fraction of the original price.
Here are some pics.





































Again, this type of watch is not bullet proof, or in the below case road rash proof?


----------



## Ti Man

What I'm wearing today:


----------



## Lu..

Citizen BN0118-55E...


----------



## HorologicOptic

Ti Man said:


> What I'm wearing today:


Nice watch! I was curious to know what Duratect type this uses, so I looked up an archived citizen.jp product page - it shows the BN4021-02E is equipped with *Duratect TIC*.


----------



## Ti Man

Titanium for the day:


----------



## Drudge




----------



## CitizenPromaster

That dial literally sums up all that is great about Citizen: Eco-Drive, radio controlled, perpetual calender, sapphire, WR 200, titanium.


----------



## Mitch100

CitizenPromaster said:


> Here is another DLC Attesa (20th anniversary limited edition, the ATV53-2834 from 2007) that has been abused.
> It looks like they tried to touch up the bezel with black marker? Very weird.
> 
> View attachment 15486236
> 
> 
> View attachment 15486240
> 
> View attachment 15486241


I have this ATV53-2834, in much better condition. It is a very attractive watch with a lot less going on on the dial than is usual with most Skyhawks. It has some nice touches on the dial as well, like the four gold batons on the function dial.





I like the look and feel of DLC on watches, it feels super smooth with its very low coefficient of friction, similar to Teflon.

It is far from scratchproof though and will scratch if it is hit against a hard enough surface.

Mitch


----------



## HorologicOptic

Ti Man said:


> Titanium for the day:


Nice watch! Is it just me or is that the deepest laser etching on a Citizen caseback I've ever seen? I have long lamented Citizen skimping on forging and planing their casebacks for nearly all non-JDM models, but if that etching is as deep as it looks at least that's a step in the right direction for the more premium non-JDM models! 👍


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Is it just me or is that the deepest laser etching on a Citizen caseback I've ever seen?


The new Fugu is even deeper, but it's not titanium though...


----------



## HorologicOptic

Woah! Now that's a happy medium if they are set on the low-cost casebacks. I wish they'd also deepen the text etching though, at least to half the depth of Mr. Fugu.

Still, That makes me less put off by the near universal use of laser engraving by Citizen. I might even prefer the clean edges and media-blast look of the engraved area to the embossing Citizen do on some diver models (all photos "borrowed" from the internet):










Anything beats this (which my NY0040 suffers from, unfortunately):










....but little they do today compares to what Citizen were doing back in the 90's:










Edit: I do like when they make offerings like this though:

*







*

And of course the Promaster 1000m goes without saying, probably my favorite Citizen caseback (which is actually Ti with Duratect - I promise to stay on topic 😜):


----------



## CitizenPromaster

You are preaching to the choir, HorOp ;-)


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> You are preaching to the choir, HorOp ;-)


You know that's who I love to preach to the most!

I was just reading about a Ti Promaster that I hadn't seen before - the *Promaster Super Tough "Robert Swan"*.










Pretty badass caseback as well! 😎










Edit - bonus photos from an Ebay listing with an asking price of $1889:

Absolute unit!










...and a rare shot of an LE Eco-Drive's naked movement!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Yeah, they've been trying to sell one of those beasts for 'only' 128,000 yen (1,238 dollar) on Yahoo Auction Japan for a while now, and another one similarly priced, but no takers.

I guess it's an acquired taste...


----------



## Ti Man

HorologicOptic said:


> Nice watch! Is it just me or is that the deepest laser etching on a Citizen caseback I've ever seen? .... but if that etching is as deep as it looks at least that's a step in the right direction for the more premium non-JDM models! ?


Thanks!

But as for the etch, unfortunately, it's just you...or at least your viewpoint from my lighting + my camera angle 

It took quite a few "takes" to even make it seem that good.

Since then, I've swapped out the "liquid" rubber OEM strap with a full-ti bracelet I bought off the big river site on the cheap.

Undoubtedly the best bang for buck <$39 USD> I've experienced in quite a while with Titanium bracelets.










The clasp is stamped, but doggone it-- it's super comfy!










The straight endlinks just so happen to have optimal clearance, fwis, with the case. 


























The fit and finish are above average-- edges radiused nicely with zero sharp, slicey edges. 

















All in all it looks like it was practically made for it. I doubt if I ever mount it on the factory strap again...it's that good. 

The only peculiarity about the bracelet is that the removeable links are held in place not with cotter pins, nor screwbars--- but spingbars. I've never seen that before, but the system seems to be engineered well, so far.


----------



## HorologicOptic

Ti Man said:


> Thanks!
> 
> But as for the etch, unfortunately, it's just you...or at least your viewpoint from my lighting + my camera angle
> 
> It took quite a few "takes" to even make it seem that good.


Ah, that makes sense. Still, a fun discussion came of it! ?



Ti Man said:


> Since then, I've swapped out the "liquid" rubber OEM strap with a full-ti bracelet I bought off the big river site on the cheap.
> 
> Undoubtedly the best bang for buck <$39 USD> I've experienced in quite a while with Titanium bracelets.
> 
> All in all it looks like it was practically made for it. I doubt if I ever mount it on the factory strap again...it's that good.
> 
> The only peculiarity about the bracelet is that the removeable links are held in place not with cotter pins, nor screwbars--- but spingbars. I've never seen that before, but the system seems to be engineered well, so far.


What a great find!! It really does work perfectly with that watch!

Do you find the functions of the Altichron to be useful, or is it just a fun gizmo to wear around?


----------



## Ti Man

HorologicOptic said:


> Ah, that makes sense. Still, a fun discussion came of it! ?
> 
> What a great find!! It really does work perfectly with that watch!
> 
> Do you find the functions of the Altichron to be useful, or is it just a fun gizmo to wear around?


I was attracted to the Altichron for the aesthetics only.

The compass and altimeter got fidgeted with a few times when the watch was new to me-- but they get zero use now.

But, I like the color combinations and contrasts on the face, hands, and pusher collars.

I like the skeletonized hands.

I appreciate the size of the date window, which, unlike most Citizen models, is large enough for my 53 year old eyes to read.

I like the the pushers and crowns. The crowns are especially pleasing to me because of their tactility due to their optimal size <for me> and their milling.

When all those "likes" are combined for me, it exudes that Citizen _je ne sais quoi _that all of us love. 

The titanium case is the icing on the cake.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Pretty badass caseback as well! 😎


These logo's are actually not that great in my humble opinion, they are glued on, and look like alumin*i*um to me.
I have a small one on my early RC citizen.










They also came on late 90s Attesas.










Notice how on this one Japan is central instead of Europe as on my RC watch and on the Robert Swan.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

All the above 'medallions' should have been done properly, like this.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> And of course the Promaster 1000m goes without saying, probably my favorite Citizen caseback (which is actually Ti with Duratect - I promise to stay on topic 😜):


Speaking of the 1000m diver, the BN7020-09E, I think I've touched on it before, but it is a weird sandwich of surface treatments.


















Citizen Japan lists four surface treatments. I think they are as follows, starting from the top (or from the left in the 2nd photo).
Like other divers with rotating bezels, the bezel is Duratect TIC (the AS7141-60E has a TIC bezel and a MRK case, for some reason).
The inner bezel with the numbers is Duratect DLC only.
The 'free lock' ring is Duratect MRK + DLC.
The case and caseback are Duratect MRK.

So why the titanium carbide coating for rotating diver bezels? Theories anyone?


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> All the above 'medallions' should have been done properly, like this.
> 
> View attachment 15538990


I agree that the forged casebacks are superior. The medallions have a cool look, but you're right that a glued on bit of stamped aluminum doesn't hold up. Even though the rings of text are laser etched, I actually prefer the modern execution of the Citizen caseback since it combines the in-metal logo with some contrast by planing the earth section which gives it a cool shine.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> I agree that the forged casebacks are superior. The medallions have a cool look, but you're right that a glued on bit of stamped aluminum doesn't hold up. Even though the rings of text are laser etched, I actually prefer the modern execution of the Citizen caseback since it combines the in-metal logo with some contrast by planing the earth section which gives it a cool shine.


So you are saying the caseback on our PMV's is the best caseback out there? I agree ;-)



CitizenPromaster said:


> Apparently SolarZilla stuck with the crowd. I don't see why, because the EcoZilla was solar powered too, but hooray for democracy.
> 
> As for the sawtooth bezel, Citizen already had a similar design way back in 1995.


One of these early sawtooth bezel titanium divers just sold on Yahoo Japan Auction, for only 4,000 yen! It turns out the caseback has a maintenance record like the professional divers used to have.


----------



## PetWatch

CitizenPromaster said:


> Speaking of the 1000m diver, the BN7020-09E, I think I've touched on it before, but it is a weird sandwich of surface treatments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Citizen Japan lists four surface treatments. I think they are as follows, starting from the top (or from the left in the 2nd photo).
> Like other divers with rotating bezels, the bezel is Duratect TIC (the AS7141-60E has a TIC bezel and a MRK case, for some reason).
> The inner bezel with the numbers is Duratect DLC only.
> The 'free lock' ring is Duratect MRK + DLC.
> The case and caseback are Duratect MRK.
> 
> So why the titanium carbide coating for rotating diver bezels? Theories anyone?


As opposed to MRK? My theory, it offers corrosion and abrasion resistance, a hard smooth surface which equates to less friction. It's better than untreated Ti or stainless steel and less expensive to apply than MRK. How much of an advantage would MRK or MRK + DLC offer in terms of practical value, cost vs gain?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

PetWatch said:


> As opposed to MRK? My theory, it offers corrosion and abrasion resistance, a hard smooth surface which equates to less friction. It's better than untreated Ti or stainless steel and less expensive to apply than MRK. How much of an advantage would MRK or MRK + DLC offer in terms of practical value, cost vs gain?


Well that can be said for MRK in general, what is the advantage of MRK vs TIC in terms of practical value, cost vs gain?
MRK is slightly harder (1,300~1,500 Hv for MRK vs 1,000~1,200 Hv for TIC), but the biggest benefit (according to Citizen) is that it can't peel off or chip, since it is not a coating.
But the bezel is more likely to bang into stuff than the case though, so I would expect the bezel to be MRK and the case to be TIC, if you are looking to reduce production costs.

So I don't think it is a cost issue. On MRK watches with fixed bezels, Citizen doesn't mention a seperate surface treatment for the bezel, unless the bezel is DLC. In other words, usually if the case is MRK, so is the fixed bezel, and the caseback, and the bracelet, and the clasp. That's why I suspect it is related to how a rotating bezel is mated to the case, or related to the friction between the rotating bezel and the case. So my theory is it has something to do with the bezel on a diver being a moving part.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Well that can be said for MRK in general, what is the advantage of MRK vs TIC in terms of practical value, cost vs gain?
> MRK is slightly harder (1,300~1,500 Hv for MRK vs 1,000~1,200 Hv for TIC), but the biggest benefit (according to Citizen) is that it can't peel off or chip, since it is not a coating.
> But the bezel is more likely to bang into stuff than the case though, so I would expect the bezel to be MRK and the case to be TIC, if you are looking to reduce production costs.
> 
> So I don't think it is a cost issue. On MRK watches with fixed bezels, Citizen doesn't mention a seperate surface treatment for the bezel, unless the bezel is DLC. In other words, usually if the case is MRK, so is the fixed bezel, and the caseback, and the bracelet, and the clasp. That's why I suspect it is related to how a rotating bezel is mated to the case, or related to the friction between the rotating bezel and the case. So my theory is it has something to do with the bezel on a diver being a moving part.


While I would never rule out cost as a contributing factor, I do find your "moving part" hypothesis interesting. Could it be that they do not want the mating surfaces and/or ratcheting subcomponents dealing with a similarly hardened bezel (since the MRK process results in universal coverage on the part)? Maybe with TIC they can more easily selectively harden the outside of the rotating bezel while keeping the inside more similar in hardness to whatever it interacts with when moving, preventing excessive wear (rather than simply a friction concern).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Thanks, HorOp, that's sounds very plausible.


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## PetWatch

HorologicOptic said:


> While I would never rule out cost as a contributing factor, I do find your "moving part" hypothesis interesting. Could it be that they do not want the mating surfaces and/or ratcheting subcomponents dealing with a similarly hardened bezel (since the MRK process results in universal coverage on the part)? Maybe with TIC they can more easily selectively harden the outside of the rotating bezel while keeping the inside more similar in hardness to whatever it interacts with when moving, preventing excessive wear (rather than simply a friction concern).


I think a partial surface hardening application of a part would be more complex and expensive. Are there any examples of this? Reducing friction is the easiest way to reduce wear on moving parts in contact with each other. This is an area where DLC excels over MRK based on my recollection and this video. DLC is not as hard as MRK but it is very smooth, thus a better application to reduce friction. Interesting that the "free lock" has both applications. Ideally the bezel, which is likely subject to impacts that cause nicks and scratches, would also be MRK, and the case would be DLC too, but that adds to cost. Cost aside, but cognizant of the need to stay in budget, this selective surface coating application makes the most sense. It's generally easier and less costly to repair or replace a bezel than a case.

View at 1:26 into video.





citizen dlc applied video - Yahoo Video Search Results


The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web.




video.search.yahoo.com


----------



## CitizenPromaster

First of all, I want to formally welcome PetWatch to this thread. The more people we have to speculate on Citizen technologies, the merrier, even if we don't always agree, right, HorologicOptic? ;-)

DLC is indeed the smoothest surface treatment according to Citizen, and theoretically that would reduce friction. However, I think doing watch parts in DLC is, despite the marketing talk, always an aesthetic choice for Citizen.

Even the application of MRK seems random. It used to be reserved for Promaster watches, but then it came to the Attesa line.

This caliber F950 model is MRK+DLC.









But this new caliber F950 model is only DLC, and it is more expensive! Sure, it is new, but Citizen never drops the MSRP, so the price is 'fixed' and you would expect it to be based on specs.










Maybe they just wanted to earn more on the non-DLC models, so they took the 220,000 yen models (which are TIC) as a base price and added the usual 30,000 yen for DLC. They don't charge extra for the DLC bezel on the CC4015-51E though. Citizen's pricing is not always consistent, or at least the logic sometimes eludes me. I am also still puzzled why the super expensive (500,000 yen plus tax) Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary model I discussed earlier in this thread is only DLC and not MRK+DLC. It's only 550 watches, and it is supposed to be a flagship!

As for the diver bezels being TIC, I don't know enough about the mechanism of a rotating bezel and about the actual ion-plating process to speculate confidently on the matter.


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## CitizenPromaster

> As for the diver bezels being TIC, I don't know enough about the mechanism of a rotating bezel and about the actual ion-plating process to speculate confidently on the matter.


Well there is only one solution to that, isn't there? Research! Here is the inside of a bezel of a Breitling:



















If the bezels of Citizen divers have similar teeth, I might have another theory. I seem to remember that you should never harden the sear on a 1911, because the sharp edge can get compromised (break) during use after hardening. Perhaps MRK gas hardening the teeth on the bezel makes them too brittle, whilst a coating of TIC is not problematic, since it doesn't affect the underlying titanium, worst case scenario is that the TIC wears off on the teeth.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Well there is only one solution to that, isn't there? Research! Here is the inside of a bezel of a Breitling:
> 
> View attachment 15543761
> 
> 
> View attachment 15543762
> 
> 
> If the bezels of Citizen divers have similar teeth, I might have another theory. I seem to remember that you should never harden the sear on a 1911, because the sharp edge can get compromised (break) during use after hardening. Perhaps MRK gas hardening the teeth on the bezel makes them too brittle, whilst a coating of TIC is not problematic, since it doesn't affect the underlying titanium, worst case scenario is that the TIC wears off on the teeth.


Good research and hypothesis. I don't think that the MRK hardening would be any risk to cause the teeth to shear due to brittling. Most custom 1911 makers are doing back yard heat treatment at best so that's a primary driver to why they can run into issues like that - too much variability in their process. Citizen has a whole subsidiary dedicated to surface treatment; they have no such issues. The teeth would cause additional wear on mating components though if they differ in hardness, so I do think that they'd stick with a more uniformly applicable treatment that keeps costs down on what many makers treat as expendable components.


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## CitizenPromaster

I guess Citizen Coating Service will have to settle it, since HorOp is unconvinced, as usual... ;-p


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## PetWatch

CitizenPromaster said:


> Well there is only one solution to that, isn't there? Research! Here is the inside of a bezel of a Breitling:
> 
> View attachment 15543761
> 
> 
> View attachment 15543762
> 
> 
> If the bezels of Citizen divers have similar teeth, I might have another theory. I seem to remember that you should never harden the sear on a 1911, because the sharp edge can get compromised (break) during use after hardening. Perhaps MRK gas hardening the teeth on the bezel makes them too brittle, whilst a coating of TIC is not problematic, since it doesn't affect the underlying titanium, worst case scenario is that the TIC wears off on the teeth.


First, thank you for the warm welcome. Great thread! I have never taken apart a bezel, but I imagine that the spring, the part that engages the teeth on the bezel is the weakest link.

I found this interesting article: Case (Surface) Hardening versus Through Hardening of Steel - Axis Fabrication
It relates to steel but Citizen may be able to apply it to Ti. To summarize core heating the metal to harden it makes it more brittle, but only applying a surface hardening layer, like MRK, will keep the core metal ductile, while the surface layer becomes harder and more brittle. Likely the best option. Possibly the reason they don't harden the whole case, bezel? Better to get a nick than a crack.

I agree it's unlikely that the forces at play here would cause the teeth to chip, spring would likely brake before that happens and we don't know what that is made of.

As HorologicOptic mentioned, different hardness components accelerate wear, which make total sense, but this is only a part of the cause of friction that causes wear, surface smoothness playing a major factor. At any rate, we have slightly different high hardness parts in contact with each other with one likely providing a smoother gliding surface.

What is the spring made of and is it hardened?

Does Citizen partially harden a part as opposed to only the whole part.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## HorologicOptic

PetWatch said:


> First, thank you for the warm welcome. Great thread! I have never taken apart a bezel, but I imagine that the spring, the part that engages the teeth on the bezel is the weakest link.
> 
> I found this interesting article: Case (Surface) Hardening versus Through Hardening of Steel - Axis Fabrication
> It relates to steel but Citizen may be able to apply it to Ti. To summarize core heating the metal to harden it makes it more brittle, but only applying a surface hardening layer, like MRK, will keep the core metal ductile, while the surface layer becomes harder and more brittle. Likely the best option. Possibly the reason they don't harden the whole case, bezel? Better to get a nick than a crack.
> 
> I agree it's unlikely that the forces at play here would cause the teeth to chip, spring would likely brake before that happens and we don't know what that is made of.
> 
> As HorologicOptic mentioned, different hardness components accelerate wear, which make total sense, but this is only a part of the cause of friction that causes wear, surface smoothness playing a major factor. At any rate, we have slightly different high hardness parts in contact with each other with one likely providing a smoother gliding surface.
> 
> What is the spring made of and is it hardened?
> 
> Does Citizen partially harden a part as opposed to only the whole part.


Great stuff, PetWatch. You are correct that surface hardening is useful for meshing components like gear teeth; that's actually the primary use case I'm aware of in the industry for gas diffusion hardening in Ti - hardening gear teeth without compromising their ductility.

As for you CitizenPro, you know I'll cast any shadow of doubt if I think it'll get you doing primary source research without me having to lift a finger!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I think you guys are missing the point, literally. Let me refer back to the concept of MRK and TIC (not to scale):



CitizenPromaster said:


> As a visual reminder of the surface treatments:


On a large gear with large teeth, the small depth of the hardened layer will cause no problems with regards to brittleness. With these tiny teeth though, by case hardening the bezel, you practically end up with through hardened teeth, or at least through hardened teeth edges, and it is the edges that are vulnerable, because they process all the force, like on a sear nose.








In this thread, someone posted photos of his sear nose. First a couple people said something like:
_"I'd have to call it pre-mature wear, the hammer hooks have made quite an impression on the sear primary face. My guess is the hammer is harder than the sear, which appears to be soft. So no, I would not characterize this as normal."_
But then someone with a metallurgy background said:
_"Looking at the photos that is a classic case hardening failure, if not done correctly and it has a "thin" spot it would chip out and then it's all downhill from there. Maybe (just a guess) they started with a lower quality steel and tried to just case harden it to make up for it."_
The discussion continues and he adds:
_"Depending on the material used some will harden through but becomes more prone to cracks, the sear in this thread looks like a typical case hardened failure where case has a thin spot and wears through and once through into the softer material underneath it just gets worse, see the trench that's eaten into the edge. I would love to measure the hardness of that sear and then the failed area."_

Granted, he doesn't say brittleness is the cause of the failure, but rather a thin spot, which can happen due to various causes, but the point remains that you don't want to add too much variables when dealing with sharp edges that make a lot of contact, and HorOp'sremark quoted below is wrong in two ways:
*"Most custom 1911 makers are doing back yard heat treatment at best so that's a primary driver to why they can run into issues like that - too much variability in their process. Citizen has a whole subsidiary dedicated to surface treatment; they have no such issues."*
The above sear was from Wilson, who take great care in what they do, but when you harden enough parts, one can go wrong. So the part about back yard hardening is wrong, and the part about Citizen not having variability is also wrong, that's why MRK is stated as 1300 ~1500 Hv, and TIC as 1000 ~ 1200 Hv, so TIC is actually a less uniformly applicable treatment, relatively speaking, as 200/1200 is a bigger variance than 200/1500. Suck on that! LOL

But in the end Wilson themselves weigh in, and they say:
_"Based on this thread we batch tested numerous sears (again) and found no issue with heat treat or hardness but we look forward to servicing the OP's gun on our dime of course."_
The metallurgist is not content and asks:
_"WilsonRep, if you don't mind me asking and since you guy's actually care enough to follow a thread, what do you attribute the trough to on the OP's sear. Not trying to give you guy's a hard time but just curious to what your thoughts are on what caused this, always open to learning something. Maybe post the findings once you get things back to inspect them. "_
WIlson replies:
_"I don't want to guess but my assumption is his hammer is too hard and sear is on the soft side of normal. Again, without the gun in hand its only a guess."_

So Wilson supports the hardness mismatch theory (without having the part in hand). Well this actually argues against using MRK in combination with TIC if the parts actually touch eachother, since it will cause wear, but then the thought might indeed be to sacrifice the TIC bezel against the MRK case, since a bezel can be replaced more easily, and having both an MRK case and an MRK bezel would result in equal wear on both and having to replace the case too if the bezel become loose from wear.

Hope that dissertation helps lol


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> I think you guys are missing the point, literally. Let me refer back to the concept of MRK and TIC (not to scale):
> 
> On a large gear with large teeth, the small depth of the hardened layer will cause no problems with regards to brittleness. With these tiny teeth though, by case hardening the bezel, you practically end up with through hardened teeth, or at least through hardened teeth edges, and it is the edges that are vulnerable, because they process all the force, like on a sear nose.
> View attachment 15544824
> 
> In this thread, someone posted photos of his sear nose. First a couple people said something like:
> _"I'd have to call it pre-mature wear, the hammer hooks have made quite an impression on the sear primary face. My guess is the hammer is harder than the sear, which appears to be soft. So no, I would not characterize this as normal."_
> But then someone with a metallurgy background said:
> _"Looking at the photos that is a classic case hardening failure, if not done correctly and it has a "thin" spot it would chip out and then it's all downhill from there. Maybe (just a guess) they started with a lower quality steel and tried to just case harden it to make up for it."_
> The discussion continues and he adds:
> _"Depending on the material used some will harden through but becomes more prone to cracks, the sear in this thread looks like a typical case hardened failure where case has a thin spot and wears through and once through into the softer material underneath it just gets worse, see the trench that's eaten into the edge. I would love to measure the hardness of that sear and then the failed area."_
> 
> Granted, he doesn't say brittleness is the cause of the failure, but rather a thin spot, which can happen due to various causes, but the point remains that you don't want to add too much variables when dealing with sharp edges that make a lot of contact, and HorOp'sremark quoted below is wrong in two ways:
> *"Most custom 1911 makers are doing back yard heat treatment at best so that's a primary driver to why they can run into issues like that - too much variability in their process. Citizen has a whole subsidiary dedicated to surface treatment; they have no such issues."*
> The above sear was from Wilson, who take great care in what they do, but when you harden enough parts, one can go wrong. So the part about back yard hardening is wrong, and the part about Citizen not having variability is also wrong, that's why MRK is stated as 1300 ~1500 Hv, and TIC as 1000 ~ 1200 Hv, so TIC is actually a less uniformly applicable treatment, relatively speaking, as 200/1200 is a bigger variance than 200/1500. Suck on that! LOL
> 
> But in the end Wilson themselves weigh in, and they say:
> _"Based on this thread we batch tested numerous sears (again) and found no issue with heat treat or hardness but we look forward to servicing the OP's gun on our dime of course."_
> The metallurgist is not content and asks:
> _"WilsonRep, if you don't mind me asking and since you guy's actually care enough to follow a thread, what do you attribute the trough to on the OP's sear. Not trying to give you guy's a hard time but just curious to what your thoughts are on what caused this, always open to learning something. Maybe post the findings once you get things back to inspect them. "_
> WIlson replies:
> _"I don't want to guess but my assumption is his hammer is too hard and sear is on the soft side of normal. Again, without the gun in hand its only a guess."_
> 
> So Wilson supports the hardness mismatch theory (without having the part in hand). Well this actually argues against using MRK in combination with TIC if the parts actually touch eachother, since it will cause wear, but then the thought might indeed be to sacrifice the TIC bezel against the MRK case, since a bezel can be replaced more easily, and having both an MRK case and an MRK bezel would result in equal wear on both and having to replace the case too if the bezel become loose from wear.
> 
> Hope that dissertation helps lol


Keep in mind you're talking about a sear on a firearm that has to take a lot more energy than a watch ratchet tooth. Gas diffusion depth is measured in microns, they would by no means be hardened through at that scale. Basing a process variability guess on marketing claims is bunk, please don't do that. They're doing diffusion hardening likely with in-house equipment - they've almost certainly got tight controls on their process.

Interesting stuff. 1911's are finicky creatures, no matter who is making them there are enough variables to cause anyone a headache if anything is off.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Fair enough, but what do *you* know about the forces a watch ratchet tooth endures? And what exactly are *you* basing your guess of the process variability on? "They have a subsidiary with in-house equipment." So what? My oldest PMP56-2933, which was one of the earlier DLC watches (and the first MRK+DLC watch) has a couple of 'moles' on the surface, where somehow the DLC was applied almost like a droplet, maybe 0.5 mm thick. That seems unacceptable. And you know how messed up the knurling can be on some examples of the PMV, where you were amazed that it got through QC. So why are you so certain about their tight controls in the process? I wish you were as critical of your own assumptions as you are of mine!

(I'm just playing though, I love you bro)


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Fair enough, but what do *you* know about the forces a watch ratchet tooth endures? And what exactly are *you* basing your guess of the process variability on? "They have a subsidiary with in-house equipment." So what? My oldest PMP56-2933, which was one of the earlier DLC watches (and the first MRK+DLC watch) has a couple of 'moles' on the surface, where somehow the DLC was applied almost like a droplet, maybe 0.5 mm thick. That seems unacceptable. And you know how messed up the knurling can be on some examples of the PMV, where you were amazed that it got through QC. So why are you so certain about their tight controls in the process? I wish you were as critical of your own assumptions as you are of mine!
> 
> (I'm just playing though, I love you bro)


All fair points, actually!
😅

I'll have you know I spent 3 years working part time as a bezel ratchet tooth! It was tough, thankless work but I just kept thinking of all the divers' lives I was saving because as everyone knows, all dive watches are used as the only barrier between life and death for their owners!

On a more serious note what I said about the QC concern on the bezel was silly - I've subsequently looked at plenty of example photos at standard magnification and that is probably not a QC concern outside of the most extreme cases (end of tool life, operator error, etc). I was lost down in the 100x zoom reeds! I agree that visually identifiable DLC defects should not pass QC though, that is concerning.


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## CitizenPromaster

Here is one of those messed up knurled bezels, and I just PM'd you two pictures of this same 2012 PMV, since we have a fetish for deformed knurling, but I did not include this third picture, you know why? Notice in this picture the HUGE CHIP originating in the FINE EDGE of the lug. Not exactly MICRONS of damage, now is it? How hard do you reckon that impact was? Not something you want to happen to the teeth of the rotating bezel, methinks!


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## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Here is one of those messed up knurled bezels, and I just PM'd you two pictures of this same 2012 PMV, since we have a fetish for deformed knurling, but I did not include this third picture, you know why? Notice in this picture the HUGE CHIP originating in the FINE EDGE of the lug. Not exactly MICRONS of damage, now is it? How hard do you reckon that impact was? Not something you want to happen to the teeth of the rotating bezel, methinks!
> 
> View attachment 15544897


Losing that much material from a tooth could be devastating, you're right. Would the internal teeth be as exposed to extreme forces as the lugs? Possibly, I can't say for sure though.

Now that I see the knurling issues you've sent, maybe what I was saying wasn't so silly after all - those are gnarly!!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> Losing that much material from a tooth could be devastating, you're right. Would the internal teeth be as exposed to extreme forces as the lugs? Possibly, I can't say for sure though.
> 
> Now that I see the knurling issues you've sent, maybe what I was saying wasn't so silly after all - those are gnarly!!


If you hit the bezel against something at a certain angle, like you would the lug or any other part of the watch, would the force not transfer from the outer bezel, to the teeth on the inside of the bezel, and then smack the teeth against the inside area of the case? So maybe it is not the ratcheting itself causing dangerously high forces, but the risk of impacts?


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## Igorek

CitizenPromaster said:


> First of all, I want to formally welcome PetWatch to this thread. The more people we have to speculate on Citizen technologies, the merrier, even if we don't always agree, right, HorologicOptic? ;-)
> 
> DLC is indeed the smoothest surface treatment according to Citizen, and theoretically that would reduce friction. However, I think doing watch parts in DLC is, despite the marketing talk, always an aesthetic choice for Citizen.
> 
> Even the application of MRK seems random. It used to be reserved for Promaster watches, but then it came to the Attesa line.
> 
> This caliber F950 model is MRK+DLC.
> View attachment 15543231
> 
> 
> But this new caliber F950 model is only DLC, and it is more expensive! Sure, it is new, but Citizen never drops the MSRP, so the price is 'fixed' and you would expect it to be based on specs.
> 
> View attachment 15543236
> 
> 
> Maybe they just wanted to earn more on the non-DLC models, so they took the 220,000 yen models (which are TIC) as a base price and added the usual 30,000 yen for DLC. They don't charge extra for the DLC bezel on the CC4015-51E though. Citizen's pricing is not always consistent, or at least the logic sometimes eludes me. I am also still puzzled why the super expensive (500,000 yen plus tax) Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary model I discussed earlier in this thread is only DLC and not MRK+DLC. It's only 550 watches, and it is supposed to be a flagship!
> 
> As for the diver bezels being TIC, I don't know enough about the mechanism of a rotating bezel and about the actual ion-plating process to speculate confidently on the matter.


I really like the 4000 series but they need to make one without GPS since I find it useless.


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## CitizenPromaster

Igorek said:


> I really like the 4000 series but they need to make one without GPS since I find it useless.


Well luckily for you there are also non-GPS / RC versions for half the price:


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Well luckily for you there are also non-GPS / RC versions for half the price:
> View attachment 15545498


Thanks for pointing these out for Igorek. I would like to note that the -63L and -63E feature TIC, with DLC for the -62E of course.

One thing I appreciate about the product pages for new watches on Citizen.jp is the inclusion of images that more accurately shows features of the watch, rather than just face-on pictures:


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## CitizenPromaster

So are we in agreement that the likely reason for the diver bezels being TIC only or DLC only is that the internal teeth are at risk of catastrophic failure due to impacts on the bezel if they were gas hardened, i.e. MRK or MRK+DLC?


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> So are we in agreement that the likely reason for the diver bezels being TIC only or DLC only is that the internal teeth are at risk of catastrophic failure due to impacts on the bezel if they were gas hardened, i.e. MRK or MRK+DLC?


I don't agree that it's the most likely reason, but it might be a contributing factor. Money leads here.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic said:


> I don't agree that it's the most likely reason, but it might be a contributing factor. Money leads here.


Bull. If money was leading, Citizen wouldn't bother with the MRK at all, like in all the other markets outside of Japan. And I highly doubt many Japanese buyers are even aware that some models are MRK. Besides, you are suggesting that complicating the production (logistically) by having certain parts of the watch go through a different surface treatment, instead of throwing the bezels in with all the other parts, is somehow saving them money.

As I have illustrated in this thread, they used to make seperate TIC models of watches that are MRK in Japan. Even changing the dial and caseback markings for the EU. Now they just release some of them in the EU with MRK. Why? Too much trouble (cost) to design and produce a separate variation!

But we can agree to disagree ;-)


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Bull. If money was leading, Citizen wouldn't bother with the MRK at all, like in all the other markets outside of Japan. And I highly doubt many Japanese buyers are even aware that some models are MRK. Besides, you are suggesting that complicating the production (logistically) by having certain parts of the watch go through a different surface treatment, instead of throwing the bezels in with all the other parts, is somehow saving them money.
> 
> As I have illustrated in this thread, they used to make seperate TIC models of watches that are MRK in Japan. Even changing the dial and caseback markings for the EU. Now they just release some of them in the EU with MRK. Why? Too much trouble (cost) to design and produce a separate variation!
> 
> But we can agree to disagree ;-)


You're making a concerning amount of assumptions regarding Citizen's manufacturing logistics and international product marketing strategies when you have very little data, at best, to support said assumptions. We do not know why Citizen have chosen to unify some of their MRK lineup outside of Japan. Could it be as you propose? Sure, but we have no way of solidifying that assumption without a high-level Citizen Japan product executive on record speaking about internal decisions. What if marketing has determined their target European customers care more about technical specifications in watches than previously thought, closer in character to the Japanese customers? Would that not be an equally logical explanation? Speculation abounds.

To not bother with a high tech specification like MRK on their top-end JDM watches would be counter to their and many Japanese companies' differentiation strategies in the domestic market. But, if they're able to omit the MRK treatment for lower cost replaceable subcomponents like dive bezels but still include the MRK treatment on the case, they can still put the MRK spec on the product sheet, along with whatever coating they use on the bezel as well.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I find your arguments unconvincing, I'm even gonna throw in an ad hominem and say you should start working as a fact-checker for the corporate media! Maybe WUS is even prepared to let you flag my conspiracy theories on Citizen's manufacturing logistics and international product marketing strategies, like so:

*Some or all of the content shared in this post is disputed and might be misleading about watch manufacturing or another watch related process.*

You seem to think Citizen is going to skimp on a MRK bezel for the BN7020-09E after going through all the trouble of engineering the watch (see video and screenshot) to save a few yen.















I have shown photographic evidence of catastrophic failure of a MRK edge not even half as pointy as the internal teeth of a diver bezel, and you seem to think Citizen is going to risk that hapenning on their flagship diver, again to save a few yen. Obviously they chose TIC for the bezel because it was the best surface treatment for that particular application. You are just being obnoxious again.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> I find your arguments unconvincing, I'm even gonna throw in an ad hominem and say you should start working as a fact-checker for the corporate media! Maybe WUS is even prepared to let you flag my conspiracy theories on Citizen's manufacturing logistics and international product marketing strategies, like so:
> 
> *Some or all of the content shared in this post is disputed and might be misleading about watch manufacturing or another watch related process.*
> 
> You seem to think Citizen is going to skimp on a MRK bezel for the BN7020-09E after going through all the trouble of engineering the watch (see video and screenshot) to save a few yen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15546593
> 
> 
> I have shown photographic evidence of catastrophic failure of a MRK edge not even half as pointy as the internal teeth of a diver bezel, and you seem to think Citizen is going to risk that hapenning on their flagship diver, again to save a few yen. Obviously they chose TIC for the bezel because it was the best surface treatment for that particular application. You are just being obnoxious again.


If I didn't know better, I'd say your retort seems like it could have been made in bad faith! I'd rather we keep this discussion welcoming. Either way, I never said I thought you were wrong, just that it's concerning that you seem to be implying that something you've assumed with very little to go on is indisputably correct. I more than agree that it very well could have been the best coating for the job, it's just that it's difficult to say with nothing to go on.

That exploded diagram is very interesting. Do you think you could have someone at Citizen identify which surface treatments are used for which layers? I have found that their Japanese service department is very knowledgeable and willing to explain fine details of their products, though this might be a bit of a stretch. Couldn't hurt to ask though!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

> If I didn't know better, I'd say your retort seems like it could have been made in bad faith!


Fortunately you know better! This is just a repeat of page 14 of this thread and I can't be bothered to convince you this time. My findings are satisfactory to me, whether they are correct or not.



> As for you CitizenPro, you know I'll cast any shadow of doubt if I think it'll get you doing primary source research without me having to lift a finger!


Contact them about the exploded diagram yourself, lazy bastard!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I am also still puzzled why the super expensive (500,000 yen plus tax) Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary model I discussed earlier in this thread is only DLC and not MRK+DLC. It's only 550 watches, and it is supposed to be a flagship!


I can now also *indisputably *conclude that the CC4025-82E is only DLC, and not MRK+DLC, because of the many fine edges on the bracelet links.



















Imagine those chipping like this when someone paid 500,000 yen plus tax:


----------



## aafanatic

CitizenPromaster said:


> First of all, I want to formally welcome PetWatch to this thread. The more people we have to speculate on Citizen technologies, the merrier, even if we don't always agree, right, HorologicOptic? ;-)
> 
> DLC is indeed the smoothest surface treatment according to Citizen, and theoretically that would reduce friction. However, I think doing watch parts in DLC is, despite the marketing talk, always an aesthetic choice for Citizen.
> 
> Even the application of MRK seems random. It used to be reserved for Promaster watches, but then it came to the Attesa line.
> 
> This caliber F950 model is MRK+DLC.
> View attachment 15543231
> 
> 
> But this new caliber F950 model is only DLC, and it is more expensive! Sure, it is new, but Citizen never drops the MSRP, so the price is 'fixed' and you would expect it to be based on specs.
> 
> View attachment 15543236
> 
> 
> Maybe they just wanted to earn more on the non-DLC models, so they took the 220,000 yen models (which are TIC) as a base price and added the usual 30,000 yen for DLC. They don't charge extra for the DLC bezel on the CC4015-51E though. Citizen's pricing is not always consistent, or at least the logic sometimes eludes me. I am also still puzzled why the super expensive (500,000 yen plus tax) Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary model I discussed earlier in this thread is only DLC and not MRK+DLC. It's only 550 watches, and it is supposed to be a flagship!
> 
> As for the diver bezels being TIC, I don't know enough about the mechanism of a rotating bezel and about the actual ion-plating process to speculate confidently on the matter.


I hope it's not too late to chime in on this?! These three new watches are from the Attesa ACT Line. They are the more casual/sporty cousins to the Attesa main offerings.(ACT Line) The crystals and bezel inserts on these are amazing. Next level stuff. I think PetWatch has one and can attest.
As for the Solarzilla, in short: it is just an AWEsome watch. In the metal it is a GOD amongst mortals and insects. They may not have treated the bezel with MRK, but I doubt you will hear any complaints from owners;-) 
PS I think of Citizen as the engineering pioneer of the big three, and I like to assume that all of their choices are well thought out.


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## HorologicOptic

aafanatic said:


> I hope it's not too late to chime in on this?! These three new watches are from the Attesa ACT Line. They are the more casual/sporty cousins to the Attesa main offerings.(ACT Line) The crystals and bezel inserts on these are amazing. Next level stuff. I think PetWatch has one and can attest.
> As for the Solarzilla, in short: it is just an AWEsome watch. In the metal it is a GOD amongst mortals and insects. They may not have treated the bezel with MRK, but I doubt you will hear any complaints from owners;-)
> PS I think of Citizen as the engineering pioneer of the big three, and I like to assume that all of their choices are well thought out.


I think think I can speak for everyone here when I say we always appreciate you chiming in, especially since you have the most hands-on experience with Citizen's Ti watches out of anyone here!

I agree that Citizen are the engineering pioneers of the Japanese firms, far and away (though Spring Drive is pretty amazing!). Don't mind my and CitPro's sniping back and forth, I don't think we can help ourselves. No doubt Citizen make the best decisions from an engineering perspective, even if sometimes those decisions can be motivated by economic constraints (e.g. shallow laser etched casebacks in lieu of stamping)


----------



## Sclsdagnd

CitizenPromaster said:


> Fortunately you know better! This is just a repeat of page 14 of this thread and I can't be bothered to convince you this time. My findings are satisfactory
> 
> Contact them about the exploded diagram yourself, lazy bastard!


It is quite sad that this argument became insulting.


----------



## HorologicOptic

Sclsdagnd said:


> It is quite sad that this argument became insulting.


Thanks for your input Sclsdagnd, well noted. I think he and I are just a couple of stubborn mules pulling in opposite directions at times... I believe he's being facetious in his own way. Still, I'd rather keep the atmosphere constructive since even if one doesn't mean harm it can sometimes look that way to newcomers! Stick around, we always enjoy new members of our motley crew!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Sclsdagnd said:


> It is quite sad that this argument became insulting.


Where is the insult? Lazy bastard? Tongue-in-cheek is often hard to read if English is not your first language, especially in writing. And I doubt using the word facetious is doing Sclsdagnd any favours! I am a translator by profession and I've never seen or heard the word facetious before and had to look it up. "treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humour; flippant."

Yes, I'm all about inappropriate humour, I self-censor on this forum and in daily life all the time, so I don't upset the snowflakes. It was just a lovers' quarrel, don't get your panties in a bunch.

If I called Citizen and they confirmed my theory, HorologicOptic would say he is not convinced because I didn't speak to the head engineer of the BN7020. If I talk to him and he confirms my theory, HorOp would say he was still doubtful because I didn't hook him up to a lie detector and he would never be truthful about competitively sensitive information! He is never satisfied ;-)


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Where is the insult? Lazy bastard? Tongue-in-cheek is often hard to read if English is not your first language, especially in writing. And I doubt using the word facetious is doing Sclsdagnd any favours! I am a translator by profession and I've never seen or heard the word facetious before and had to look it up. "treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humour; flippant."
> 
> Yes, I'm all about inappropriate humour, I self-censor on this forum and in daily life all the time, so I don't upset the snowflakes. It was just a lovers' quarrel, don't get your panties in a bunch.
> 
> If I called Citizen and they confirmed my theory, HorologicOptic would say he is not convinced because I didn't speak to the head engineer of the BN7020. If I talk to him and he confirms my theory, HorOp would say he was still doubtful because I didn't hook him up to a lie detector and he would never be truthful about competitively sensitive information! He is never satisfied ;-)


*I can neither confirm nor deny the above claims.* ?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

HorologicOptic egging me on is what drives me to do research beyond what I would otherwise do, and I like him and appreciate him for that very reason, but he can be a real pain in the butt at times, and today I lost my patience. You think these photos and narratives just magically appear in this thread? I put in hours of research and thought on this one trivial matter and I’ve gone from “something to do with it being a moving part” to a properly argued theory, whilst the only counter argument HorOp keeps repeating is “but money”, acting like he knows what it costs Citizen to make a TIC bezel vs a MRK bezel, whilst accusing me of “you seem to be implying that something you've assumed with very little to go on is indisputably correct” and demanding quotes from Citizen executives to support my assumptions. How is that constructive?


----------



## PetWatch

CitizenPromaster said:


> So are we in agreement that the likely reason for the diver bezels being TIC only or DLC only is that the internal teeth are at risk of catastrophic failure due to impacts on the bezel if they were gas hardened, i.e. MRK or MRK+DLC?


Not really, gas hardened MRK is still a surface treatment. I haven't gone back through the whole thread to see if depth has been reported and the impact on the core properties. There's a lot of posts about hardness not sure any on surface treatment depth? In the not exactly applicable but related link I posted about surface hardening they state: "The most common depth is in the range 0.020"-0.030"." If this holds relatively true, and I don't see why it wouldn't, the chip or ding shown on your watch went well beyond the surface. Are you saying that MRK is more prone to chipping than TIC/DLC? What is this based on? Maybe I missed another one? Both are surface treatments that retain the metals ductility underneath in the core. I'm sticking to the smooth surface offering less friction for the bezel, being a weaker link, more economical replacement.

I kind of regret introducing the economic argument, I don't think that's the main area of interest here. These large companies incorporate detailed cost considerations in every step of a project.

Back to the bezel, a sufficiently hard impact could indeed damage the teeth, even though, based on how the teeth sit on the retaining ring the main force would be spread at least across several teeth increasing the necessary force to cause damage. From my research for examples of bezel damage, excluding outer impact damage, it is the exposure to sand or accumulation of grime over time that causes grittiness and wear. Reduce gap tolerance through the use of a hard, longer lasting, smooth gliding surface and you reduce this issue and likely overcome the significance of different metal surfaces. And here I go again, it would be nice if every part and every surface had the best possible treatment but that gets us into the economics of the matter.

Can't wait to see what Citizen has to say. We can then argue about that.


----------



## PetWatch

aafanatic said:


> I hope it's not too late to chime in on this?! These three new watches are from the Attesa ACT Line. They are the more casual/sporty cousins to the Attesa main offerings.(ACT Line) The crystals and bezel inserts on these are amazing. Next level stuff. I think PetWatch has one and can attest.
> As for the Solarzilla, in short: it is just an AWEsome watch. In the metal it is a GOD amongst mortals and insects. They may not have treated the bezel with MRK, but I doubt you will hear any complaints from owners;-)
> PS I think of Citizen as the engineering pioneer of the big three, and I like to assume that all of their choices are well thought out.


Definitely great stuff these Attesa have. Not interested in finding out the limits, though. Now you tell me that about the Solarzilla, lol. I have the plain mortal Ecozilla, which I really like.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Assuming the 0.020 to 0.030 you cite is in mm, that is also true for MRK according to the patent and the info I posted from Citizen Coating Service. A typical coating for Citizen is 1 to 2 micron, or 0.001 to 0.002 mm. MRK is ten times that, and cures the titanium up to 20 micron, or 0.020 mm. That means that the tip of an edge ends up being through-ish hardened to a depth of 0.020 mm, and the solid is under extreme stress in that region, that stress is what gives it its hardness actually. (Remember tempered glass, and how point and edge sensitive that is?)

We all know how soft knife edges roll and how hard knife edges chip. I connected the dots to sear noses, and showed an example of a MRK edge chipping. I can't measure the depth of that chip, but I wouldn't be surprised if some unhardened titanium comes off once the 20 micron layer shatters from an impact. I have no other examples of MRK chipping, but as I said, I'm just connecting the dots, up to and including the über-Titanium Technology model with sharp edged bracelet links not being MRK.

On large surfaces, I imagine the soft titanium under the MRK layer can cushion the impact so to speak, on edges not so much. Also, when TIC or DLC comes off, the bond to the titanium is not so strong that it can take with it anything beyond its own 1 to 2 micron layer.

For me it's just Occam's razor. Why not MRK on a diver bezel? A diver bezel has teeth. Hardened edges are troublesome. Simple. Saying that MRK might be more expensive than TIC seems like a simple explanation, but do we even know this is true? Maybe gas hardening is a more expensive process than PVD generally speaking, but we don't know the *marginal *costs of a MRK bezel versus a TIC bezel for Citizen, and no one has any shred of evidence to suggest that making the bezel MRK on a watch that already gets a MRK case and an MRK bracelet ("throw the bezel in with the other parts that get MRK"), would be more expensive for Citizen than making the bezel TIC ("throw the bezel in with parts for other watches that get TIC). Similarly, no one has any shred of evidence that TIC is much smoother than MRK, and even if it is, that smoothness matters in the application of a ratcheting bezel, or that bezels on top end Citizen divers get replaced very often and need to be economical to replace. So I think you guys are making more assumptions than I am at this point.


----------



## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> Assuming the 0.020 to 0.030 you cite is in mm, that is also true for MRK according to the patent and the info I posted from Citizen Coating Service. A typical coating for Citizen is 1 to 2 micron, or 0.001 to 0.002 mm. MRK is ten times that, and cures the titanium up to 20 micron, or 0.020 mm. That means that the tip of an edge ends up being through-ish hardened to a depth of 0.020 mm, and the solid is under extreme stress in that region, that stress is what gives it its hardness actually. (Remember tempered glass, and how point and edge sensitive that is?)
> 
> We all know how soft knife edges roll and how hard knife edges chip. I connected the dots to sear noses, and showed an example of a MRK edge chipping. I can't measure the depth of that chip, but I wouldn't be surprised if some unhardened titanium comes off once the 20 micron layer shatters from an impact. I have no other examples of MRK chipping, but as I said, I'm just connecting the dots, up to and including the über-Titanium Technology model with sharp edged bracelet links not being MRK.
> 
> On large surfaces, I imagine the soft titanium under the MRK layer can cushion the impact so to speak, on edges not so much. Also, when TIC or DLC comes off, the bond to the titanium is not so strong that it can take with it anything beyond its own 1 to 2 micron layer.
> 
> For me it's just Occam's razor. Why not MRK on a diver bezel? A diver bezel has teeth. Hardened edges are troublesome. Simple. Saying that MRK might be more expensive than TIC seems like a simple explanation, but do we even know this is true? Maybe gas hardening is a more expensive process than PVD generally speaking, but we don't know the *marginal *costs of a MRK bezel versus a TIC bezel for Citizen, and no one has any shred of evidence to suggest that making the bezel MRK on a watch that already gets a MRK case and an MRK bracelet ("throw the bezel in with the other parts that get MRK"), would be more expensive for Citizen than making the bezel TIC ("throw the bezel in with parts for other watches that get TIC). Similarly, no one has any shred of evidence that TIC is much smoother than MRK, and even if it is, that smoothness matters in the application of a ratcheting bezel, or that bezels on top end Citizen divers get replaced very often and need to be economical to replace. So I think you guys are making more assumptions than I am at this point.


I understand your frustrations, and I'm sorry for approaching things in a way that might appear as attempts to invalidate or otherwise demean the research and thought you've put into things. I do not mean to do that - on the contrary, your efforts are some of the main reasons I'm involved here and a tipping point to making me finally create an account on this forum.

What you posit in your final paragraph here is what I've been trying to say - we simply don't have enough to go on no matter how much thought we put into the matter, Occam's razor or not. We cannot definitively validate any hypothesis put forward. Part and parcel while speculating about an industry as veiled and often illusive as watchmaking, I suppose.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I accept your apology! ;-) I like to use hypothesis and theory interchangeably, but I know there is a difference. (Merriam-webster.com: In scientific reasoning, a *hypothesis* is an assumption made before any research has been completed for the sake of testing. A *theory* on the other hand is a principle set to explain phenomena already supported by data.), but let's not debate if the data I offered as support qualifies my hypothesis as a theory ;-)

I know we could just ask Citizen, but where is the fun in that? I wanted to see if I could come up with a theory, since it is an odd thing for Citizen to do.

Speaking of odd things for Citizen to do, who is the bean counter that sold management on black paint for the casebacks of the F100 Satellite Wave?

Black dial version, well-worn:

















White dial version, well-worn:

















This black dial version was worn less, or maybe they left the sticker on for a while:

















Speaking of black stuff. Here is a quiz question, and you are not allowed to use search engines! When a watch brand refers to *black PVD*, what is the actual material deposited that is black in color? Again, no peeking on the internet!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

No one is playing along, so I will just give the answer about black PVD. Most articles on the web tell you nothing, they only explain that PVD stands for Physical Vapor Deposition, and they often mention that DLC is a type of PVD, which is not an accurate statement, as you will read below.

Citizen differentiates it as follows:










Only IP is PVD in the case of Citizen, since Citizen Coating Service actually tells us that the DLC is applied by CVD, but DLC can also be applied by PVD. Sumitomo Electric Industries explains:
"The methods for producing DLC films are broadly divided into two types: Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD) and Chemical Vapor Deposition (CVD). The PVD method uses a solid (graphite) as the carbon source and the CVD method uses a gas (a hydrocarbon such as methane)."

Here I want to focus more on the material that is being deposited than on the process (read the Wiki if you like: Physical vapor deposition - Wikipedia and Chemical vapor deposition - Wikipedia).

I'm going to be lazy and copy as much as I can from a bunch of websites, because different brands use different materials:

CM Group
"Titanium CarboNitride PVD (TiCN), Titanium Aluminium Nitride (TiAlN), Titanium Nitride Oxide (TiNO) - Light grey to rifle barrel black, Shiny - Satin - Pearl

To obtain a colour that ranges from grey to riffle barrel black, mostly carbide titanium nitrides or titanium nitrides are used. These coatings improve the wear and corrosion resistance increasing the strength and the oxidation resistance levels. This PVD layer can reach a thickness of one micron and is fixed solidly to the substrate of any kind of support, which can be plastic, metal, or stainless steel. This method of deposition is based on a purely physical process, which is performed in an environment under vacuum and high temperature.

Black Titanium CarboNitride or Titanium Nitride
Black PVD is chosen to increase the durability and wear resistance, both due to the corrosion resistance characteristics and for its very high quality appearance when a persistent, opaque brown-black effect is required, such as for weapons, jewellery, and home decor of value.
The PVD coating extends to highly diversified fields to improve the surface wear, corrosion resistance, or decorative characteristics of components built especially from steel and in carbon, to obtain innovative colours to be applied to surfaces of high quality consumer goods with excellent hardness and abrasion resistance.
The technology evolution of the PVD processes has led to the construction of large systems that can coat tools of considerable length, treating a large number of components in the same coating batch.
Whatever the finish, colour or metal used for the coating, the entire PVD process is innocuous for the environment: no polluting substances or toxic residues are produced during processing that can poison our planet. The PVD process is safe, clean and ecologically sustainable."

Horobox
"PVD is used by many brands in the sector and marketed under various trade names. Like AlTiN (Aluminum Titanium Nitride) developed by *Urwerk*, or TiC (Titanium Carbide) developed by *Tudor*. Basically, they are all the same type of coating but with slightly different pros and cons."

Revolution
"Physical vapour deposition (PVD) is a generic term that covers a range of vacuum deposition methods, the idea being to produce thin but durable films by first creating a vapour of the coating. It is then deposited on the object to be protected or coloured. PVD's uses encompass everything from thin film solar panels to food packaging, but watch enthusiasts know it as the first of the modern treatments to replace the fragile powder coating or anodising of the past, and it remains the most popular. Among the coatings applied with PVD are various nitrides including titanium, zirconium, chromium and titanium aluminium nitride (see below). Watches offered with PVD coatings - and the durability has improved markedly since the 1990s - include SevenFriday's Copper Black, Alpina's Startimer Pilot, the JeanRichard Aquascope Black and the Sinn 857-UTC-Black.

TiC is a type of PVD that employs titanium carbide and is the finish chosen by Tudor for its new series of all-black Black Bay Dark. It was preferred, says Tudor, because "it has been found to be very hard - 10 times harder than steel - but it is less brittle than DLC (Diamond Like Carbon). This is important on TUDOR divers' watches as pressure can distort the case and cause issues with coatings coming free." Notable, too, is the super-smooth finish."

The only one I'm going to show of the named brands is the Tudor Black Bay Dark, because like Citizen, they use TiC (though it might be TiCN for all I know).










Now I have mentioned before in this thread that titanium carbide (TiC) is actually black, and later on I've posted the patent for what Citizen used to call White IP, which is titanium carbide mixed with a whole bunch of other stuff, but the patent is vague enough to not give away the "secret sauce" as HorologicOptic calls it, but in any case that is why Duratect TIC is not black.

There is another black compound that can be used to coat a watch, chromium carbide (Cr3C2), but I've only found mention of this one by Longines, other websites only mention chromium nitride (CrN). Interestingly, the other PVD that Longines uses is actually identical to what Citizen calls Duratect Gold, which is titanium nitride (TiN) with a layer of gold (Au).




  






Notice that I haven't found any information on what material Citizen uses for their black PVD ^_^

Addition (Feb '21): For the hardcore readers, here is a complete website on PVD, I will link to the history page as a starting point: History of PVD coatings | PVD Coatings (pvd-coatings.co.uk)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

There are currently 100 Tudor Black Bay Dark watches for sale on Chrono24. So much for exclusivity! It's a nice watch, but not 3k to 4k nice. I don't know what to think of this claim though:
TiC is a type of PVD that employs titanium carbide and is the finish chosen by Tudor for its new series of all-black Black Bay Dark. It was preferred, says Tudor, because *"it has been found to be very hard - 10 times harder than steel - but it is less brittle than DLC (Diamond Like Carbon). This is important on TUDOR divers' watches as pressure can distort the case and cause issues with coatings coming free."*

There are plenty of DLC divers out there, aren't there? Besides, the BBD is rated for 200m, which is nothing. Plenty of DLC Citizens are rated for 200m.

And today's top tip Tudor alternative, a black PVD Citizen diver (NH8385-11EE, 10 bar, no sapphire) for only 200 euro! ;-)










Yeah, I know, it looks nothing like it lol

Anyway, that's enough of this stainless steel nonsense!


----------



## PetWatch

CitizenPromaster said:


> There are currently 100 Tudor Black Bay Dark watches for sale on Chrono24. So much for exclusivity! It's a nice watch, but not 3k to 4k nice. I don't know what to think of this claim though:
> TiC is a type of PVD that employs titanium carbide and is the finish chosen by Tudor for its new series of all-black Black Bay Dark. It was preferred, says Tudor, because *"it has been found to be very hard - 10 times harder than steel - but it is less brittle than DLC (Diamond Like Carbon). This is important on TUDOR divers' watches as pressure can distort the case and cause issues with coatings coming free."*
> 
> There are plenty of DLC divers out there, aren't there? Besides, the BBD is rated for 200m, which is nothing. Plenty of DLC Citizens are rated for 200m.


I was going to point that out. How much pressure is required to even begin to distort a metal case, steel, Ti? My guess, marketing speak immaterial to possible usage.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## HorologicOptic

CitizenPromaster said:


> *"it has been found to be very hard - 10 times harder than steel - but it is less brittle than DLC (Diamond Like Carbon). This is important on TUDOR divers' watches as pressure can distort the case and cause issues with coatings coming free."*


Great stuff you've posted here, thank you for sharing all this solid info. Still going to be going through the more technical stuff myself, but this bit you quoted from Tudor caught my eye - total nonsense at any pressure it's actually rated for.... made me laugh out loud.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I guess Tudor is making all our BS gauges go into the red


----------



## CitizenPromaster

One thing Citizen doesn't do, is combine MRK with TIC, though theoretically they do combine MRK with Alpha, but so far only on the CC9000-51A afaik.

Casio also has 'white' titanium carbide coatings, but they claim they do combine it with some type of hardening (don't mind the marketing blabber in below text):

MRGB1000D-1A
"Introducing an elegantly beautiful new titanium model for the mid-size series of the G-SHOCK MR-G flagship lineup. Everything possible has been done to reflect the metal crafting aesthetics of armor, swords, and other Japanese arms, which have been symbols of power in Japan since time immemorial.

*The case and band are made of titanium that has been deep surface hardened and then given a titanium carbide finish, which creates a beautiful lustrous silver color. *The bezel is then given a diamond-like carbon (DLC) coating that gives it a bold and intrepid black color. All of this is offset by the vivid red accents on the face that evoke images of red braided armor that adds an imposing majesty to the metal and creates a sense of power."

The black titanium MR-G's are listed as "DLC treatment + deep curing process". Another name Casio has for it is "deep layer hardening".

Don't ask me to start a The Definitive Casio Titanium Thread though...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Here's some wild speculation for y'all: did Casio just buy all their surface treatment technology from Citizen or use Citizen's expired patents? You'd think Casio would be proud of the white TiC, DLC and deep hardening if they came up with it themselves, yet on their technology website there is nothing about surface treatments! Technology - Watch Technologies | CASIO


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## CitizenPromaster

Fun fact, the use of the term α by Citizen actually goes back to the 70s, where they had "SS α" and "α - GP", which referred to a special kind of tone, the alpha tone, and involved partially gold plated stainless steel, or fully gold plated stainless steel. I'm not sure how that reflects on Duratect α.

Also interesting, Citizen had black watches in the early 70s, but these were described as being a hard light alloy, 1/3 the weight of SS and with twice the surface hardness of SS, and they were actually slightly cheaper than the SS equivalent, so maybe it was a black anodized aluminium alloy?

On a side note, some people insist the early 70s black Porsche Design watches are black oxide, not PVD, which would have to be hot bluing since it is stainless steel ("immersed in a mixture of nitrates and chromates" is how hot bluing works for stainless steel according to wikipedia).


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## aafanatic

FWIW: here's an example of Duratect Alpha in the wild with some use on the clasp especially.
CC9000-51A


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## CitizenPromaster

aafanatic said:


> FWIW: here's an example of Duratect Alpha in the wild with some use on the clasp especially.
> CC9000-51A


I liked your post because it is informative, but I dislike that a coating supposedly as hard as sapphire has scratches like that!

By the way, the seller seems unaware that it is Duratect α. At the time he bought it, countries outside Japan didn't specify beyond "Super Titanium", that might be why he copy-pasted this very general description, it's probably all the local website offered at the time: _Case Material: Titanium, Super Titanium (Ti + IP), Citizen Duratect_


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## CitizenPromaster

Citizen has announced the release date for the Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary CC4025-82E: 2 January 2021. They are also adding four limited DLC watches with a space dial.

CC4025-82E: 世界初のチタニウム製腕時計誕生から50年　チタニウム技術50周年を記念する限定モデル　2021年1月2日発売 ［CITIZEN-シチズン］
Space dial watches: 世界初のチタニウムウオッチ誕生から50年　宇宙をイメージしたブルーとブラックが印象的な限定モデル　「コズミックブルー コレクション」が登場　2021年1月2日発売 ［CITIZEN-シチズン］

These press releases keep immortalizing the PMP56-2933 ^_^










And so did ABTW in their piece on 50 years Citizen titanium, at the bottom there are no less than 9 images of the PMP56-2933!








Citizen Of Japan Aims For Space As It Celebrates 50 Years Of Industry-Leading Titanium Watches | aBlogtoWatch


Citizen, the renowned timepiece and instrument maker, has been an innovator in the field of not only designing robust and lightweight titanium metal watches but also in the manufacture and production of precision titanium components.



www.ablogtowatch.com


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> What are the odds, two weeks after re-posting this, the rare 1,300m diver comes up for sale on Yahoo Japan Auctions.
> 
> Starting bid 180,000 yen, buyout price 280,000 yen. I'm glad my titanium milestone Citizen is not crazy money like that!


The 1,300m diver did indeed sell after one bid of 180,000 yen, and this 800m titanium diver just sold for 59,590 yen after starting at 1,000 yen and 46 bids.


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## CitizenPromaster

CC4025-82E caseback


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## aafanatic

"And so did ABTW in their piece on 50 years Citizen titanium, at the bottom there are no less than 9 images of the PMP56-2933! "

After reading this piece on Citizen Titanium I understand why you are so into your PMP56!
Thanks for sharing this with us.


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## CitizenPromaster

aafanatic said:


> "And so did ABTW in their piece on 50 years Citizen titanium, at the bottom there are no less than 9 images of the PMP56-2933! "
> 
> After reading this piece on Citizen Titanium I understand why you are so into your PMP56!
> Thanks for sharing this with us.


Well, the article was shared by GaryK30 at the bottom of page 11 of this thread back in March, and I replied:



CitizenPromaster said:


> Lol that marketing blabber raises so many questions that I hope people find this thread to clear up their confusion.
> I am also laughing at the suggestion that 'Super Titanium' is going to the moon. Shiny lunar rovers, yay!
> 
> Also, that particular PMP56-2933 definitely has not been daily worn for 10 years...
> It's an impressive combo DLC+MRK, but that watch has been babied, as this 2 to 3 year daily worn example shows:
> Ultimate Skyhawk / Nighthawk PMP56-2933 in Retrospect
> 
> Nice of Citizen to celebrate 50 years of titanum technology though! I have done my part, you are welcome Citizen!


I professed the PMP56 was my 'grail' on page 1 of this thread back in 2016, and the above quote shows I wasn't a fan of the ABTW article, but it is true that I started looking for them on Yahoo Japan Auction after seeing the watch featured so prominently in the ABTW article, and as you know a while ago I decided to try Buyee to purchase from Yahoo Japan Auction. So GaryK30 and the ABTW article are direct causes of me buying two PMP56's, that is a fact!


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Also interesting, Citizen had black watches in the early 70s, but these were described as being a hard light alloy, 1/3 the weight of SS and with twice the surface hardness of SS, and they were actually slightly cheaper than the SS equivalent, so maybe it was a black anodized aluminium alloy?


This is one of those watches, NOS on Yahoo Japan Auction.


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## johnny action

Definitively my very own Citizen titanium so-called Brycen chronograph, whatever that means.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CitizenPromaster

Speaking of ABTW, Ariel did a commercial on the new Super Titanium Armor models.


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## CitizenPromaster

Today I want to commemorate a very brave WUS user, allanvalle, who keyed the DLC clasp on his PMV65-2242. He has not been online since 2008, after only a two year stint on WUS, but he had excellent taste, because he also had a PMP56-2933 . He believed DLC was absolutely bulletproof, and I'm glad he did not have to suffer through seeing all the abused DLC watches I posted in this thread.

Wherever you are, allanvalle, I thank you for your service. May your DLC collection rest in peace.



allanvalle said:


> I scratched up my Citizen Skyhawk professional the other day to prove that it is 99.999 percent scratch-proof to just about everything except for a diamond of course. DLC stands for diamond like carbon. So here are the photos of my keyed watch. Don't try this on non-DLC watches!
> 
> The keys are bronze and steel.
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> 
> From wikipedia: The hardest, strongest, and slickest is such a mixture, known as tetrahedral amorphous carbon, or _ta-C_. For example a coating of only 2μm thickness of _ta-C_ increases the resistance of common (_ie._ type 304) stainless steel against abrasive wear; changing its lifetime in such service from one week to 85 years.
> 
> The link: Diamond-like carbon - Wikipedia


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## dgaddis

I've never liked the look of busy pilot watches...but recently I've been wanting to try one out. While researching a JDM Promaster Sky model I happen to find a used one here on WatchUSeek for sale at a great price, so it's now on its way to me. Titanium with DuraTech MRK + DLC. I've wanted a full DLC watch for a while, so this will scratch a few itches. It also has the same awesome clasp that's in my PMD56-2952, so that's always nice. Hopefully have it this week!









シチズンウオッチ オフィシャルサイト


CITIZEN-シチズン腕時計 オフィシャルサイトです。




citizen.jp


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## GaryK30

dgaddis said:


> I've never liked the look of busy pilot watches...but recently I've been wanting to try one out. While researching a JDM Promaster Sky model I happen to find a used one here on WatchUSeek for sale at a great price, so it's now on its way to me. Titanium with DuraTech MRK + DLC. I've wanted a full DLC watch for a while, so this will scratch a few itches. It also has the same awesome clasp that's in my PMD56-2952, so that's always nice. Hopefully have it this week!
> 
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> シチズンウオッチ オフィシャルサイト
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> CITIZEN-シチズン腕時計 オフィシャルサイトです。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> citizen.jp


It's a nice watch. I used to own the similar BY0080-57E.


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## dgaddis

GaryK30 said:


> It's a nice watch. I used to own the similar BY0080-57E.
> View attachment 15595103


Do you happen to remember the lug to lug on it?


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## GaryK30

dgaddis said:


> Do you happen to remember the lug to lug on it?


I don't remember, but it was a little big for my flat, 7" wrist. It was still comfortable to wear, due to the titanium construction and the tool-free micro-adjust on the clasp.


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## GaryK30

dgaddis said:


> Do you happen to remember the lug to lug on it?


This page says the lug-to-lug is 49.5mm, but I'm not sure if it's correct.









Citizen Promaster BY0080-57E Eco-Drive Radio Controlled for Price on request for sale from a Seller on Chrono24


Citizen Promaster Listing: Price on request Citizen Promaster BY0080-57E Eco-Drive Radio Controlled, Reference number BY0080-57E; Titanium; Quartz; Condition New; Watch with original box; Watch wi




www.chrono24.ph


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## kubr1ck

GaryK30 said:


> It's a nice watch. I used to own the similar BY0080-57E.


Love this one, Gary. I'm sorry you got rid of it!


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## GaryK30

kubr1ck said:


> Love this one, Gary. I'm sorry you got rid of it!


The guy I bought it from is an "internet buddy" of mine. He asked if I'd be willing to sell it back to him for the same price he charged me, and I agreed. Ultimately, he ended up selling it again for $100 less. Oh well.


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## kubr1ck

GaryK30 said:


> The guy I bought it from is an "internet buddy" of mine. He asked if I'd be willing to sell it back to him for the same price he charged me, and I agreed. Ultimately, he ended up selling it again for $100 less. Oh well.


That was a nice gesture on your part. At the end of the day a watch is just a watch.


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## CitizenPromaster

There are plenty of these, used and unused, on Yahoo Japan Auction for pretty attractive prices...
As I said a few months ago, I expect these two to be discontinued soon, together with the PMV65-2271 and the DLC JY8025-59E. Citizen Japan already discontinued the PMV65-2272 last month, so my prediction is starting to come true. I don’t think the others will make it past winter 2020 or spring 2021, but I hope I’m wrong!

When these are gone, afaik only the Promaster Land PMD56-2951/2952 will have the beloved micro-adjust clasp (that is not a diver extension). The good news, as I've stated before, is that the new Promaster Sky pilot watch line is still MRK, and even internationally, if that model is sold in your country.


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## CitizenPromaster

Page 15 of this thread was mostly about the first Attesa after @hi_bri found the ladies version, and there is actually a NOS one for sale on Yahoo Auction right now! The seller has made it part of a lot of NOS Citizens so he probably has no idea about the historical value. Unfortunately it does not seem to be the men's version, which is the ATD53-1046 as far as I can gather, while the one for sale is the ATD53-1056. ヤフオク! - デッドストック CITIZEN シチズン アテッサ/クリ... (yahoo.co.jp)










Here they are together:


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Also interesting, Citizen had black watches in the early 70s, but these were described as being a hard light alloy, 1/3 the weight of SS and with twice the surface hardness of SS, and they were actually slightly cheaper than the SS equivalent, so maybe it was a black anodized aluminium alloy?


So I think I found the watch, where this material made its debut, which was in 1970, so several years before the black Porsche Design Chronograph 1!

Below is a browser translation.










I then looked to see if "hardermite" was a weird translation or an actual term, and I found this:
"Hardermite, developed at Citizen's horological research and development laboratory, is extremely tough (scratch resistant) and exceedingly light in weight - much lighter than conventional watches of comparable size."

Still nothing on the alloy itself, but then I found the below quote in a scientific Japanese document, and it seems my guess was right!

"In the last corrosion tests, a material of the manipulator, the incorrosible aluminium alloy, AL6061- T6 (hereinafter referred to as AL) and also the incorrosible aluminium alloy coated by hardermite, HMAL6061-T6 (hereinafter referred to as HM) were tested in artificial and natural sea water. Hardermite is a hard anodic oxidized product incorrosible for oxidation. As the results of the test, it was recognized that the AL is easily corroded, and adhesion of some sessible organisms or suspended substances is much more harmful than the changes of temperature or the quantity of dissolved oxygene for corrosion. After considering these results, in the present experiment, study on the paints for the use of incorrosion or antifouling, was carried out in natural sea water. Effects of the incorrosible or antifouling paints will be expected when the hardermite coated on AL is worned off by any accidents. The results obtained by the experiment were as follows: 1) Effects of antifouling against adhesion of algae are not so different by the kinds of paints. 2) Effects of antifouling against adhesion of barnacles etc. are quite large, and no differences are happened by the kinds of paints. 3) Effects of incorrosion are quite enough in use of any kinds of paints."

So it's not titanium, but this hard anodic oxidized (Difference Between Hard Anodic Oxidation and White Anodizing) aluminium alloy debuted in 1970, the same year that Citizen presented the world's first watch with a solid titanium case. (see elsewhere in this thread) Who knows, it might have gone either way, but now 50 years later titanium reigns supreme, and there is not one aluminium Citizen. Titanium + DLC is probably a better product, but it is much more expensive than stainless steel, while the light alloy + hardermite was a little cheaper than stainless steel, so in that sense I'm not sure if we are getting the better deal!

To round it off, here is a real world look at the Custom V2 Lucky.


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## Alansmithee

I am confused - I think I have misunderstood something fundamental - I always thought that duratech was used to refer exclusively to titanium watches? But having come across the Citizen XC - it is SS but labeled duratech.


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## CitizenPromaster

Alansmithee said:


> I am confused - I think I have misunderstood something fundamental - I always thought that duratech was used to refer exclusively to titanium watches? But having come across the Citizen XC - it is SS but labeled duratech.


Duratect is just a marketing term for Citizen's surface treatments, both of titanium and stainless steel watches.


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## Renkensue

Does anyone have any pictures of how the Duratect DLC wears over time? I am interested in the soon to be released 50th anniversary CB0219-50L as a daily watch and wondering how it will wear.

I apologize if there has been a post about this earlier in the thread


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## CitizenPromaster

Renkensue said:


> Does anyone have any pictures of how the Duratect DLC wears over time? I am interested in the soon to be released 50th anniversary CB0219-50L as a daily watch and wondering how it will wear.
> 
> I apologize if there has been a post about this earlier in the thread


I accept your apology ;-) I have posted several examples from page 16 onwards. Most examples show more extreme wear than you will encounter if you are somewhat careful with your DLC watch, like most of us are. DLC is pretty tough, but it can certainly be damaged, as the abused DLC watches in this thread illustrate. I have also shown examples of typical wear. I recently bought a close to 15 year old used MRK + DLC watch, and the wear is hardly visible at arm's length.

I will be nice and name the specific posts later when I am on my laptop, for quick future reference. To learn the difference between MRK + DLC and only DLC you will have to read the first page of this thread. Most Citizen DLC watches are only DLC, like the CB02190-50L, but I actually doubt it makes much difference in wear resistance.


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## CitizenPromaster

Here are the page & post numbers showing worn watches that are fully (MRK +) DLC or have a DLC bezel.

16 - #306
16 - #316
16 - #317
16 - #320
17 - #323
18 - #346
18 - #355
19 - #362
19 - #363
19 - #366 (testimony)
19 - #378
20 - #385
23 - #459 (scratch test)


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## Renkensue

Thanks for the info, I'll go check those out.


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## umarrajs

Loving it!!


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## CitizenPromaster

Boo! I am the Ghost of Citizen Titanium Technology Past.

One of the images on page 1 that got deleted by tinypic showed an overview of Citizens titanium from before they coined the term Duratect.
I mentioned then that this was from 2001, but I have since posted a Duratect overview from 1999, so let's say this describes Citizen's titanium technology of the late 1990s.










The below Promaster Tough watch (from a Russian guy who imported it) is an example of a DURA TITAN watch, as you can see from the label. It was a nitriding heat treatment technology, so it is distinct from MRK and TIC, as can be seen in the Duratect overview from 2002 I posted.


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## aafanatic

Wow! That was awesome I am glad that Citzen settled on "Duratect" rather thasn "Dura Titan"


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> To capitalize on this moon stuff and 50 years of titanium watches, there is a new DLC watch, the CC4025-82E, or "Citizen / Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary Flagship Model SATELLITE WAVE GPS F950". 550 will be made, 3 will be available in The Netherlands, for 3,950 EUR each. But I don't recommend you buy it as an investment ;-)





CitizenPromaster said:


> Citizen has announced the release date for the Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary CC4025-82E: 2 January 2021.


Well it is 2 January 2021 (Dutch date format), and the first CC4025-82E is for sale on Yahoo Japan Auction. Immediately 20% discount as usual, so for 400,000 yen (excluding tax?). If a Dutch person were to import it, he'd have to pay 21% VAT, which makes it a little more expensive than the Dutch price incl. VAT, EUR 4,022 vs EUR 3,950, and that excludes shipping, so no point for Dutch people really, unless someone misses out on one of the 3 that are available in The Netherlands, but I'd be surprised if those 3 sell at all. Anyway, since it is not likely anyone on WUS will buy it, here are some "real life" photos of the Citizen Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary model.


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> The 1,300m diver did indeed sell after one bid of 180,000 yen, and this 800m titanium diver just sold for 59,590 yen after starting at 1,000 yen and 46 bids.


Another 1,300m diver that started at 100 yen also ended up selling for 175,000 yen after 66 bids, that is close to EUR 1,500 / USD 1,700. For some reason old ("vintage") Citizen dive watches are really highly valued. The automatic divers (great article by Sweephand) are fetching similar money even when in rough condition, when the same money could get you a nice early Citizen Chrono Master / Chronometer (another great article by Sweephand).

Meanwhile two Yahoo Auction sellers are trying to sell the Titanium Tech. 50th Ann. CC4025-82E for 550,000 yen including tax, while the one offered for 400,000 yen hasn't even sold yet. No one seems interested. Pretty shameful for Citizen if you ask me... All that effort for a celebratory watch that no one wants!


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## Fergfour

Ordered a NY0105-81E the other day. Super Titanium Duratect DLC. I've had a couple of Fugu's before but this one checks more boxes for me.


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## CitizenPromaster

Be sure to post some wrist shots when you get it. I posted about that watch a while ago in this thread, and I was actually checking it out again on YouTube yesterday, but my car broke down this week and it is a 1,800 USD repair, so I won't be buying any watches anytime soon!


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## Fergfour

CitizenPromaster said:


> Be sure to post some wrist shots when you get it. I posted about that watch a while ago in this thread, and I was actually checking it out again on YouTube yesterday, but my car broke down this week and it is a 1,800 USD repair, so I won't be buying any watches anytime soon!


Sure thing. Bummer about the car, been there.


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## Fergfour

Ultra fast shipping from Hong Kong. In case anyone is interested mine comes in at 114g (4oz). That's with 2 of the links removed for my 7 1/4 inch wrist.


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## CitizenPromaster

Nice! I like the big hour markers better on these Limited Edition Asian Super Titanium models than on the European Super Titanium models (NY0100-50ME, blue dial, NY0100-50XE, green dial)


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## Fergfour

CitizenPromaster said:


> Nice! I like the big hour markers better on these Limited Edition Asian Super Titanium models than on the European Super Titanium models (NY0100-50ME, blue dial, NY0100-50XE, green dial)


I don't know if I have a preference in hour markers, but I do prefer a sapphire crystal. Are there other titanium models in 42mm with sapphire or is the DLC the only one?


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## CitizenPromaster

The EU ones are non-sapphire according to Citizen.

I noticed for some reason the case thickness differs for the titanium and stainless steel Asian models... Your DLC one is 13.7 mm, the Asian SS one is 12.6 mm, and the EU titanium and steel ones are all 12 mm? Maybe they are less similar than they look?


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## Fergfour

CitizenPromaster said:


> The EU ones are non-sapphire according to Citizen.
> I noticed for some reason the case thickness differs for the titanium and stainless steel Asian models... Your DLC one is 13.7 mm, the Asian SS one is 12.6 mm, and the EU titanium and steel ones are all 12 mm? Maybe they are less similar than they look?


Strange indeed. At first I was thinking maybe it's related to the DLC treatment but I'm pretty sure we're only talking a few microns there. 12mm vs 13.7 is somewhat significant though. Maybe someone who owns both can chime in give their thoughts.


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## CitizenPromaster

Fergfour said:


> Strange indeed. At first I was thinking maybe it's related to the DLC treatment but I'm pretty sure we're only talking a few microns there. 12mm vs 13.7 is somewhat significant though. Maybe someone who owns both can chime in give their thoughts.


I doubt anyone owns both. In fact, you might be the first on WUS to own the DLC Fugu, and I think you will be the only one for a long time.

Maybe the measurement is wrong on the NY0105-81E, can you check? They don't look that different from the side.









NY0100-50ME


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## Fergfour

After you first mentioned the thickness differences I tried to measure it but unfortunately I don't have calipers, just a metal ruler which is hard to get an exact measurement with.
I tried to measure the individual parts: 4mm for the bezel, 6.5mm case, and 3mm caseback which is pretty close to 13.7mm so that seems correct.
Maybe someone who owns one of the other models could measure the bezel/case/caseback and we can determine where the variance lies?


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## Wolfsatz

ProMaster by Wolfsatz, on Flickr


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## Henrixen

Wolfsatz said:


> ProMaster by Wolfsatz, on Flickr


That is one nice citizen. 

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


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## dgaddis

Wore my MRK+DLC pilot watch up to my buddies farm this weekend to hang out with friends and do some fishing. Rubbed the clasp against a few different rusty steel gates while opening/closing them working our way to/from the pond. Most of the gates will drag the ground, so to open them you have to pick them up and walk them. These are big enough to get a truck through. No scratches.


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## dgaddis

Wolfsatz said:


> ProMaster by Wolfsatz, on Flickr


What's the model number on that one!? It's a PMD of some sort I assume, case looks very similar to my PMD56-2952. Does the radio control work in the US or Japan only, like my PMD56?


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## Fergfour

dgaddis said:


> What's the model number on that one!? It's a PMD of some sort I assume, case looks very similar to my PMD56-2952. Does the radio control work in the US or Japan only, like my PMD56?


PMD56-2864


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## Ziptie

Fergfour said:


> PMD56-2864


Yep, and Japan only radio. Movement is H414. It's slightly older and not quite as sophisticated as the H100 in the -2951/2952 models.

My current favorite movement with US sync is the H145. I have it in 4 different models. To keep us on the titanium topic, I currently own a plain brushed titanium CB0171 and a DLC CB0177. And I'm very tempted to get the MRK with bracelet version to round out the collection.



















I wrote a post on this whole model family, for folks that are interested.


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## Maddog1970




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## aafanatic

@CitizenPromaster ...and yes, my first MRK + DLC watch


dgaddis said:


> No scratches.


 I feel better already

30th Anniversary Sky CC7015-55E


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## CitizenPromaster

You guys are really "REPRESENTING". Some pretty exclusive DLC Citizens are making their way to this thread!

Now all we need is someone with a JY8025-59E. I can't get myself to pay 900+ USD to get one, and I already have the non-DLC variant (PMV65-2271)










I also don't think I've seen this one on WUS, the CC9025-85E / CC9025-51E.










And I just discovered there was also a limited edition Hakuto version, only 250 pieces, CC9025-51L.


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## CitizenPromaster

Actually, someone posted the CC9025-51E during my time away from WUS, back on page 4.


umarrajs said:


> This landed recently:
> 
> Super Titanium
> 
> (Duratect DLC+ MRK)
> ​
> View attachment 12595263
> View attachment 12595267
> 
> 
> Had purchased this in SS last year but sold it as the color combination didn't work for me.
> ​
> View attachment 12595285
> 
> 
> ​


During this absence someone also posted about Duratect MRK Gold, which I found out about much later and then discussed at length in this thread.


Indo-Padawan said:


> Update News 6 February 2019 (I am using google translate)
> 
> Citizen JP announces the Duratect MRK Gold, which is new development of new color of Elegant Gold
> 
> 表面硬化技術「デュラテクトMRK」の新色、「デュラテクトMRKゴールド」を開発　～キズに強く、長く使い続けられる上品な金色～ ［CITIZEN-シチズン］


And there was another rare DLC watch posted, the CC7005-16E , which mimics the original Satellite Wave, the CC0005-06E, though that was ceramic + ss.


Science451 said:


> Super Titanium, DLC'ed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Black PVD is not in the title of this thread, but I dedicated a post (page 23) to the subject anyway, as it is a surface treatment that I find interesting. And since I've shown a lot of abused DLC watches, I thought I'd show this well-worn stainless steel with black PVD Citizen JY0005-50E that I came across.














































You can see it is much more prone to desk diving wear than the DLC watches I've shown. This is one of those instances where you get what you pay for. Black PVD is affordable and fine for esthetic purposes. DLC is very expensive, but certainly on another level of wear resistance. Below is a JDM version of the Skyhawk, in titanium with MRK + DLC, the PMV65-2242. Of course it is impossible to know how much this example has been worn, but if we ignore the mould and grime LOL it looks good as new. With any luck it will make it to this forum through a WUS member that I shall not name. If not, at least we'll have these pictures!
































And below is a well-worn PMV65-2242, and as you can see the bracelet is still in much better shape than the black PVD Skyhawk.










The clasp did take some damage though.


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## Wolfsatz

PMD MK1 by Wolfsatz, on Flickr


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## Ziptie

I’m sure someone here will be excited to learn that I just ordered the MRK and bracelet version of the CB0171, the -97E model. Should be here in a week or so. That means I will own the standard Duratect, DLC, and MRK versions of that watch. When you find something that works for you…


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## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> I'm sure someone here will be excited to learn that I just ordered the MRK and bracelet version of the CB0171, the -97E model. Should be here in a week or so. That means I will own the standard Duratect, DLC, and MRK versions of that watch. When you find something that works for you&#8230;


The standard Duratect, DLC, and MRK versions? Are you referring to three watches?


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## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> The standard Duratect, DLC, and MRK versions? Are you referring to three watches?


I am!


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## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> I am!


Which one are you calling the standard Duratect version?


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## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> Which one are you calling the standard Duratect version?


The CB0171-11L. All variants I could find are here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/citizen-cb0170-cb0171-cb0177-family.5241558/


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## CitizenPromaster

Oh I see, you are including the non-JDM variants. And then by standard Duratect you mean TIC.


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> Oh I see, you are including the non-JDM variants. And then by standard Duratect you mean TIC.


Yes. My goal was to document every version of that model that I could find, regardless of market.


----------



## RBEmerson

I got outrageously lucky on landing this U600-S055521 for peanuts. The seller sold it because it wouldn't hold a charge (silly seller!). The new energy cell works a treat, as is shown on the charge display. Otherwise, functionally, the watch is 100%, including the WWVB receiver. Woohoo!

I have the bezels on order (6-8 week back order - assume that means coming from Japan), and I'll polish out the crystal. Close enough for a daily watch.

The titanium part is purely luck. How much do I care about seeing "titanium" on the dial? How much of this watch is made with titanium? Does it have any influnce on the crystal material?


----------



## aafanatic

RBEmerson said:


> I got outrageously lucky on landing this U600-S055521 for peanuts. The seller sold it because it wouldn't hold a charge (silly seller!). The new energy cell works a treat, as is shown on the charge display. Otherwise, functionally, the watch is 100%, including the WWVB receiver. Woohoo!
> 
> I have the bezels on order (6-8 week back order - assume that means coming from Japan), and I'll polish out the crystal. Close enough for a daily watch.
> 
> The titanium part is purely luck. How much do I care about seeing "titanium" on the dial? How much of this watch is made with titanium? Does it have any influnce on the crystal material?
> 
> View attachment 15684694


THAT is a great find. Mine is currently at Hurley Roberts getting a new Energy Cell and gaskets

JDM Titanium Blue Angels PMV65-2261


----------



## RBEmerson

Replacing the cell is easy-peasy, ditto for the gasket. At least on my U600, the back is pried off (IMHO, a little odd, I expected to see the back threaded), slide the cell keeper spring out of the way (mine went flying - see sad, sad story posted elsewhere), pop the old cell, drop in the new cell (contact tab in the right place!!), put the spring back, and all done. The gasket pops off, roll the new one in, press the back, and all done. Two "special tools" needed - "back popper", and *plastic* tweezers to replace the cell (metal tweezers will short the cell, and probably kill it). Total tool investment - $7-10. $25 for a genuine Citizen cell from a third party. Don't ask Citizen for one - they won't sell it to an end user.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Yes. My goal was to document every version of that model that I could find, regardless of market.


We are talking past each other. I know about your overview, but I thought you were completing the JDM trio, hence my confusion about the "standard Duratect".


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I always think I'm going to run out of things to say about Citizen titanium, and then I find more things to research and chronicle!

This time I saw a post from lenny, who visited WUS between 2006 and 2016. He found a different version of the 800m professional diver that I've shown in this thread.


















He wrote: "According to Citizen Japan, this model was made in 1984. They had no other info except that the UK division may have some spare parts. As far as the composition, the gold parts are immersion gold plated titanium. I am not sure about the black portion. It does not feel like ss/titanium or plastic. Maybe magnesium?"

Well, if we look closely at the above picture, we can just make out TIB-IG on the caseback, and both TIB and TIB-IG are explained in old JDM Citizen catalogues as (auto-translate):
TIB : black color titanium side : case made of titanium with black surface treatment
TIBIG : black titanium + hard gold color side : a case made of titanium with a hard gold color treatment partially on the side that was subjected to a black surface treatment

I had translated the phrase about TIBIG before, but I had never found a watch that employed it. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us the nature of the black surface treatment, but at least we know that the black case is not magnesium but titanium, and it would make sense if it is black PVD as discussed on page 23.

So there you have it, black titanium in 1984!


----------



## zephyrj

Shout out to Ziptie for the opportunity to be in the Promaster club


----------



## DerangedGoose

I am looking for a duratect watch with micro-adjustable clasp as a daily wearer, prefer time only and 40-42mm (44 max). So far I found the Citizen Attesa 3010:










Can anyone recommend any other models I should consider? I am not partial to super busy dials, but willing to consider some (those angular case satellite wave "owl" models look good, but the integrated bracelet has no micro adjust)


----------



## dgaddis

DerangedGoose said:


> I am looking for a duratect watch with micro-adjustable clasp as a daily wearer, prefer time only and 40-42mm (44 max). So far I found the Citizen Attesa 3010:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend any other models I should consider? I am not partial to super busy dials, but willing to consider some (those angular case satellite wave "owl" models look good, but the integrated bracelet has no micro adjust)


PMD56-2952 or ...51 models are just shy of 40mm and have the best quick adjust clasp on the market. No worries of it opening accidentally when adjusting it. It's day/date though.

Also I think lots of Attessa models have a quick adjust clasp. Browse the Citizen Japan site and read the descriptions there, most sellers don't mention the clasp one way or the other.


----------



## DerangedGoose

dgaddis said:


> PMD56-2952 or ...51 models are just shy of 40mm and have the best quick adjust clasp on the market. No worries of it opening accidentally when adjusting it. It's day/date though.
> 
> Also I think lots of Attessa models have a quick adjust clasp. Browse the Citizen Japan site and read the descriptions there, most sellers don't mention the clasp one way or the other.


Thank you for the suggestion! Those aren't quite my style, I prefer markers/indices instead of numerals.

It seems Citizen refers to the clasp as a "fit adjuster", is it safe to assume that if I run the product pages through google translate, I can look for models that mention this?


----------



## dgaddis

DerangedGoose said:


> Thank you for the suggestion! Those aren't quite my style, I prefer markers/indices instead of numerals.
> 
> It seems Citizen refers to the clasp as a "fit adjuster", is it safe to assume that if I run the product pages through google translate, I can look for models that mention this?


Yep. And then Google/YouTube search model numbers you're interested in to confirm.


----------



## Ziptie

CB0120 has a very slim profile and nice micro adjust clasp. Here it is on the left compared to the PMD56 clasp on the right. I have the green LE model, black and white dials are much easier to find.


----------



## Ziptie

DerangedGoose said:


> I am looking for a duratect watch with micro-adjustable clasp as a daily wearer, prefer time only and 40-42mm (44 max). So far I found the Citizen Attesa 3010:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend any other models I should consider? I am not partial to super busy dials, but willing to consider some (those angular case satellite wave "owl" models look good, but the integrated bracelet has no micro adjust)


CB1070 is a similar 40mm model; can't remember if it has the micro adjust.


----------



## DerangedGoose

Ziptie said:


> CB1070 is a similar 40mm model; can't remember if it has the micro adjust.


It doesnt look like it does; the folding mechanism is stamped instead of milled like the adjustable clasp. I could be wrong, however. I wish there was more clarity on this! Its a huge selling point of any watch, IMO


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CB1070-56E, if the goal is fine adjustment once, then it is an option, if the goal is adjustment on the fly on warm days, then no. But how much are you willing to pay for that feature?










There are plenty of affordable "Super Titanium" (Duratect TIC) models that should wear just fine. Time only, so no date? At 41 mm, AW2020-82H and BJ6520-82E.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The AW2020-82H is discontinued by the way, but still available.
I'm tempted to buy the BJ6520-82E myself, but I have sworn loyalty to my busy dial pilot watches. At € 130 (some deals, € 229 MSRP) it is pretty close to perfection though.






It even has sapphire glass. The white dial version is BJ6520-82A. Blue dial is BJ6520-82L. Black and white dial also come on strap (-15A and -15E).


----------



## DerangedGoose

Handsome watches, but no quick adjust

On a side note, has anyone seen those clasps for sale? I may try to just fit one to my existing titanium eco drive...


----------



## DerangedGoose

Ok, is it me, or is this extremely suspect? Three sellers listing the same watch, with the same exact photos, at three different price points. But these are all seasoned accounts with hundreds of feedback!

1

2

3


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I've seen this before in Japan. I think they work on some kind of commission. Try to find their source.
Seperate clasps for sale? Not that I know of, and people have been looking a long time.


----------



## Dante80

Quick question. I was looking at CB3016-51Z recently. From my understanding, this is a titanium watch.










Do we know a. if this has base duratect on and b. if the black colored bezel around the dial is a different finish (IP?) or simply a coloring?
Many thanks.


----------



## Ziptie

Dante80 said:


> Quick question. I was looking at CB3016-51Z recently. From my understanding, this is a titanium watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do we know a. if this has base duratect on and b. if the black colored bezel around the dial is a different finish (IP?) or simply a coloring?
> Many thanks.


From the Citizen HK product page:

Surface Processing 
Duratect TIC + DLC(Bezel)









CITIZEN WATCH


CITIZEN WATCH is a true manufacture d'horlogerie with a comprehensive manufacturing process that extends from creating a watch's individual components to its final assembly. The company operates in more than 140 countries and regions around the world. Since its founding in 1918, CITIZEN have...




www.citizen.com.hk


----------



## Dante80

Many thanks. Glad to hear the polished bezel is DLC, not IP.


----------



## DerangedGoose

Even DLC will succumb to everyday wear, right? Sometimes I am so tempted by those black DLC duratect watches, and think that maybe with enough time, they will show distinguished wear like some of the black titanium Porsche Design watches from the 80s...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

DerangedGoose said:


> Even DLC will succumb to everyday wear, right? Sometimes I am so tempted by those black DLC duratect watches, and think that maybe with enough time, they will show distinguished wear like some of the black titanium Porsche Design watches from the 80s...





Renkensue said:


> Does anyone have any pictures of how the Duratect DLC wears over time? I am interested in the soon to be released 50th anniversary CB0219-50L as a daily watch and wondering how it will wear.
> 
> I apologize if there has been a post about this earlier in the thread





CitizenPromaster said:


> I accept your apology ;-) I have posted several examples from page 16 onwards. Most examples show more extreme wear than you will encounter if you are somewhat careful with your DLC watch, like most of us are. DLC is pretty tough, but it can certainly be damaged, as the abused DLC watches in this thread illustrate. I have also shown examples of typical wear. I recently bought a close to 15 year old used MRK + DLC watch, and the wear is hardly visible at arm's length.
> 
> I will be nice and name the specific posts later when I am on my laptop, for quick future reference. To learn the difference between MRK + DLC and only DLC you will have to read the first page of this thread. Most Citizen DLC watches are only DLC, like the CB02190-50L, but I actually doubt it makes much difference in wear resistance.





CitizenPromaster said:


> Here are the page & post numbers showing worn watches that are fully (MRK +) DLC or have a DLC bezel.
> 
> 16 - #306
> 16 - #316
> 16 - #317
> 16 - #320
> 17 - #323
> 18 - #346
> 18 - #355
> 19 - #362
> 19 - #363
> 19 - #366 (testimony)
> 19 - #378
> 20 - #385
> 23 - #459 (scratch test)
> 26 - #502 (PVD vs DLC)





Renkensue said:


> Thanks for the info, I'll go check those out.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I always think I'm going to run out of things to say about Citizen titanium, and then I find more things to research and chronicle!
> 
> This time I saw a post from lenny, who visited WUS between 2006 and 2016. He found a different version of the 800m professional diver that I've shown in this thread.
> 
> View attachment 15687222
> 
> View attachment 15687223
> 
> 
> He wrote: "According to Citizen Japan, this model was made in 1984. They had no other info except that the UK division may have some spare parts. As far as the composition, the gold parts are immersion gold plated titanium. I am not sure about the black portion. It does not feel like ss/titanium or plastic. Maybe magnesium?"
> 
> Well, if we look closely at the above picture, we can just make out TIB-IG on the caseback, and both TIB and TIB-IG are explained in old JDM Citizen catalogues as (auto-translate):
> TIB : black color titanium side : case made of titanium with black surface treatment
> TIBIG : black titanium + hard gold color side : a case made of titanium with a hard gold color treatment partially on the side that was subjected to a black surface treatment
> 
> I had translated the phrase about TIBIG before, but I had never found a watch that employed it. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us the nature of the black surface treatment, but at least we know that the black case is not magnesium but titanium, and it would make sense if it is black PVD as discussed on page 23.
> 
> So there you have it, black titanium in 1984!


Nobody liked this post (literally), but I'm not here for likes, so I won't let that stop me from going on about this particular subject LOL
I have unknowlingly seen a watch before that employs TIB-IG, and most of you probably have too. The titanium C026/C027/C028/C029 Aqualand!


















It is a very crude coating, as is more evident in the below photo of a C026. Reminds me of underbody coating for cars


----------



## DerangedGoose

Promaster, regarding those "on commission" identical listings I posted earlier, I am somewhat put off by the low picture quality and inherent risk of buying from someone who is essentially dropshipping used goods on consignment (despite positive feedback).

Ippo watch has that model for $412 shipped from Japan, do you think thats a reasonable price? Are these Japanese sellers usually able to get more detailed pictures?


----------



## DerangedGoose

Also, can duratect be restored by brushing with a mild abrasive pad the way grade 2 Ti watches can?


----------



## Ziptie

DerangedGoose said:


> Also, can duratect be restored by brushing with a mild abrasive pad the way grade 2 Ti watches can?


Nooooooo don't do that. In the case of Duratect I expect you will only succeed in scraping away more of the finish, and there's no guarantee that the titanium underneath will match the color or the texture.


----------



## Ziptie

DerangedGoose said:


> Promaster, regarding those "on commission" identical listings I posted earlier, I am somewhat put off by the low picture quality and inherent risk of buying from someone who is essentially dropshipping used goods on consignment (despite positive feedback).
> 
> Ippo watch has that model for $412 shipped from Japan, do you think thats a reasonable price? Are these Japanese sellers usually able to get more detailed pictures?


If you have a pretty good idea of what you're looking for, you might be able to buy it from the original seller on one of the Japanese auction proxy sites like Buyee.jp. That tends to be quite a lot cheaper than buying them on eBay, as you're only paying shipping and handling overhead, not feeding someone else's profit margin. I've made many purchases that way, both new and used, and never had a problem.


----------



## DerangedGoose

Ziptie said:


> If you have a pretty good idea of what you're looking for, you might be able to buy it from the original seller on one of the Japanese auction proxy sites like Buyee.jp. That tends to be quite a lot cheaper than buying them on eBay, as you're only paying shipping and handling overhead, not feeding someone else's profit margin. I've made many purchases that way, both new and used, and never had a problem.


Thank you for this recommendation! I ended up buying this one:

mercari listing

The pictures looked like the watch was in good used condition, and included extra links and booklets, so I assume the owner was reasonably careful with it. Hope this dice roll works out in my favor!

A duratect titanium ecodrive, 100m WR, WITH quickadjust! This might be the best option for a cheap daily wearer, period!


----------



## Ziptie

DerangedGoose said:


> Thank you for this recommendation! I ended up buying this one:
> 
> mercari listing
> 
> The pictures looked like the watch was in good used condition, and included extra links and booklets, so I assume the owner was reasonably careful with it. Hope this dice roll works out in my favor!
> 
> A duratect titanium ecodrive, 100m WR, WITH quickadjust! This might be the best option for a cheap daily wearer, period!


Congratulations! Really nice find there. Please keep us posted once it arrives.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

DerangedGoose said:


> Also, can duratect be restored by brushing with a mild abrasive pad the way grade 2 Ti watches can?





Ziptie said:


> Nooooooo don't do that. In the case of Duratect I expect you will only succeed in scraping away more of the finish, and there's no guarantee that the titanium underneath will match the color or the texture.


On page 1 of this thread in post #4 I wrote:
_Studying the above post carefully should answer pretty much all questions about Citizen's titanium treatments, except for: *can you refinish Duratect and/or Super Titanium?*

Well the jury is still out on this one. Basic Ti that is brushed for sure cleans up nicely and easily with the right material like Scotchbrite. There are a few examples on WUS, here is one: Scratch removal from Tudor Pelagos and another: Let's talk titanium I'm not sure about blasted/satin though.

The below bracelet of a Citizen Chronomaster is supposed to be Duratect, but on stainess steel and it will both scratch AND refinish!_



rex said:


> *So much for the Duratech coating on my Chronomaster.>>*
> 
> This is what it looked like after approximately 2 years of wear. Not very impressive, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I sent the watch back to Japan for a make-over and she came back like this. I bet all they did was polish out the scratches and did not re-apply the Duratech coating.


_My solution has been buying a second original titanium bracelet for my Pilot Chrono (expensive solution btw) so I can fully refresh down the road if I want to, but mostly to even be able to replace a broken bracelet after decades!_

Looking back after 5 years, having learned many details about the Duratect surface treatments and their methods of application (all of which is chronicled in this very long thread), I personally think that Duratect TIC *cannot* be restored by brushing, as it would - like Ziptie suggests - just remove more of the titanium carbide coating. That is assuming that the hardness of 1000~1200 Hv is not problematic. According to one jeweler Duratect MRK (which is not a coating but has some "meat" to it because of a gas hardened layer), at 1300~1500 Hv, is too hard and starts sparking when you try to restore it. So I don't see how Duratect titanium (TIC or MRK) could be meaningfully restored.

I don't recommend buying a spare bracelet though. When I did that, I hadn't really factored in that the case and bezel would also get "scars", so I'm never putting that brand new bracelet on, because it won't match the actual watch.

As for stainless steel with Duratect, I have not found much information on it other than post #263, which shows information from 1999 that states stainless steel is impregnated with carbon giving a 20~25 micron layer hardened to 800 Hv. So the above example of a "refinished" stainless steel Duratect bracelet is still somewhat of a mystery to me. Either 800 Hv is not too hard for rebrushing and repolishing and 20~25 micron is enough "meat" to work with, or they took off the top 20~25 micron layer and refinished it like you would any stainless steel, or they just replaced the bracelet with a new one? I guess we'll never know. What we do know is they surely "did not re-apply the Duratech coating".


----------



## DerangedGoose

Ziptie said:


> Congratulations! Really nice find there. Please keep us posted once it arrives.


Will do! I actually ended up cancelling that item and getting this one; it was marginally cheaper and the much higher quality of pictures (and gloved hands) made me feel like it was a more professional watch seller's listing. The box is listed as included and the wrist size they posted was 8.1'' roughly, which I assume means that either the links were never removed or all put back on:

yahoo JP


----------



## DerangedGoose

CitizenPromaster said:


> Looking back after 5 years, having learned many details about the Duratect surface treatments and their methods of application (all of which is chronicled in this very long thread), I personally think that Duratect TIC *cannot* be restored by brushing, as it would - like Ziptie suggests - just remove more of the titanium carbide coating. That is assuming that the hardness of 1000~1200 Hv is not problematic. According to one jeweler Duratect MRK (which is not a coating but has some "meat" to it because of a gas hardened layer), at 1300~1500 Hv, is too hard and starts sparking when you try to restore it. So I don't see how Duratect titanium (TIC or MRK) could be meaningfully restored.


It is what it is. If we were after scratchproof, we would buy ceramic cases and always dread the day we cracked or chipped them. Titanium is a wonderful watch material; I am thrilled Citizen has pushed the envelope the way it has (and that you have put in the time to explain their processes and offerings in a way that even they would not).

When one day, a decade plus from now, one of us sends a well-loved Duratect Ti watch to citizen, I will be curious to see what they do. If these watches are grade 2, I am not sure there is any way to restore a mirror finish. If they are grade 5, then that alone might be enough to inspire confidence that the watch can be properly refinished?


----------



## Ziptie

Because I am that nerd, here's my collection of the same watch in three different titanium cases.

CB0171-11L Duratect TIC
CB0171-97E Duratect MRK
CB0177-31E Duratect DLC

The straps are aftermarket, the bracelet is original. The 97E bracelet model arrived today, it's great. The clasp isn't as awesome as a PMD56 line, as it doesn't have the ratcheting micro-adjust, but it fit me just fine with no links removed, on the middle adjustment hole.

You can tell which watch hasn't synced recently because it was in the mail.


----------



## Ziptie

DerangedGoose said:


> If these watches are grade 2, I am not sure there is any way to restore a mirror finish. If they are grade 5, then that alone might be enough to inspire confidence that the watch can be properly refinished?


Given that Citizen has decades of innovation in titanium processes I wouldn't be surprised if they had their own custom in-house alloys that are not the industry standards.


----------



## DerangedGoose

Ziptie said:


> Given that Citizen has decades of innovation in titanium processes I wouldn't be surprised if they had their own custom in-house alloys that are not the industry standards.


I wonder what the quote would be for a refinishing of a duratect Ti model. That may give us a clue about the process involved.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

On page 1, in post #5 I wrote:
_This brings us to *MISCONCEPTION 3: *underneath the fancy coating Citizen uses cheap a$$ (Grade 2 or whatever) titanium.
(...)
Now I am not saying Citizen uses Grade 5 (Ti6Al4V), I think they don't, but the first row in the below 'yellow' table seems to suggest Citizen doesn't use 99,7% titanium, which is 'pure' titanium like Grade 2. However, you might also say that all that is claimed in the first row is that Citizen doesn't use 99,7% grade titanium at the surface. What they actually use is anyone's guess, there are 38 grades! Titanium alloy - Wikipedia So I don't feel confident to say the misconception is truly a misconception, but it is likely Citizen has their own alloy recipe by now._

During my time away from WUS @notional decided to contact Citizen about it, so here is a belated "thank you" for your post, notional!


notional said:


> Absolutely great stuff CitizenPromaster. I've been looking all over for information on Ti and their uses in watches, especially Citizen watches. Your information presented was most comprehensive. Again, thank you for your efforts. I did have only one thing to add to this thread, and that is the type of Ti used by Citizen, because I just couldn't find that information anywhere. I've seen lots of speculation, but nothing real or concrete. So I reached out to Citizen. They were very helpful and informative. I personally own an early 90's model Ti (one of their early models with no removable back), as well as the Autozilla and their new 1000m ProMaster BN7020 and was very curious as to what they used. I specifically was asking Citizen about the differences between the Autozilla and the BN7020's Ti. They stated that the Ti is the same, it's just a difference in the plating from one model to the next. Directly from Citizen - They use Grade 1 Ti. (The result of test piece: purity = 99.802% Impurities: Fe 0.09, Si < 0.004, C 0.01, N 0.008, H 0.006, O 0.08 ASTM B265-95). They also stated, that in comparison to stainless steel, titanium with titanium carbide ion plating featured on our titanium product is 5 times harder and more scratch resistant than stainless steel. This is not to say that it won't scratch, but in comparison to untreated stainless steel it is more scratch resistant. This would apply to most titanium models currently on our website. There are a few specialized models that feature enhanced plating (DLC or diamond like carbide) which is very scratch resistant, but that is found on very expensive models. Most of which you have already covered quite extensively. But, my addition to this discussion is simply that Citizen uses Grade 1 Ti for their two 1000m divers. Good stuff to know (and quite fascinating)!


I don't know who he spoke to at Citizen, but the test piece result gives credence, and again, looking back after 5 years, I have no reason to doubt that they indeed use Grade 1 Ti and rely on their surface treatment technologies for durability. Also, refinishing is not a concern to Citizen, because they are in the business of selling new watches, not in the business of refinishing old watches. And all these modern Citizen calibers, when you send them to Citizen for repair, they just put in a new one if they stilll have stock, and if they don't, you are out of luck. Similarly, car manufacturers don't care that all these new cars full of electronics might be unrepairable (economically) 20 years from now, when all the computers and screens inside are dead, because then they can sell you a new car again. Capitalist countries have throw-away societies after all.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@Ziptie my RC watches are never slow when out of sync, always fast! Anyway, congrats on this nice little trinity. Can you see a visual difference between the TIC and the MRK? I have described previously that MRK is less reflective and warms up quicker in direct sunlight, I wonder if you agree.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> So I think I found the watch, where this material made its debut, which was in 1970, so several years before the black Porsche Design Chronograph 1!
> 
> Below is a browser translation.
> 
> View attachment 15598774
> 
> 
> I then looked to see if "hardermite" was a weird translation or an actual term, and I found this:
> "Hardermite, developed at Citizen's horological research and development laboratory, is extremely tough (scratch resistant) and exceedingly light in weight - much lighter than conventional watches of comparable size."
> 
> Still nothing on the alloy itself, but then I found the below quote in a scientific Japanese document, and it seems my guess was right!
> 
> "In the last corrosion tests, a material of the manipulator, the incorrosible aluminium alloy, AL6061- T6 (hereinafter referred to as AL) and also the incorrosible aluminium alloy coated by hardermite, HMAL6061-T6 (hereinafter referred to as HM) were tested in artificial and natural sea water. Hardermite is a hard anodic oxidized product incorrosible for oxidation. As the results of the test, it was recognized that the AL is easily corroded, and adhesion of some sessible organisms or suspended substances is much more harmful than the changes of temperature or the quantity of dissolved oxygene for corrosion. After considering these results, in the present experiment, study on the paints for the use of incorrosion or antifouling, was carried out in natural sea water. Effects of the incorrosible or antifouling paints will be expected when the hardermite coated on AL is worned off by any accidents. The results obtained by the experiment were as follows: 1) Effects of antifouling against adhesion of algae are not so different by the kinds of paints. 2) Effects of antifouling against adhesion of barnacles etc. are quite large, and no differences are happened by the kinds of paints. 3) Effects of incorrosion are quite enough in use of any kinds of paints."
> 
> So it's not titanium, but this hard anodic oxidized (Difference Between Hard Anodic Oxidation and White Anodizing) aluminium alloy debuted in 1970, the same year that Citizen presented the world's first watch with a solid titanium case. (see elsewhere in this thread) Who knows, it might have gone either way, but now 50 years later titanium reigns supreme, and there is not one aluminium Citizen. Titanium + DLC is probably a better product, but it is much more expensive than stainless steel, while the light alloy + hardermite was a little cheaper than stainless steel, so in that sense I'm not sure if we are getting the better deal!
> 
> To round it off, here is a real world look at the Custom V2 Lucky.
> 
> View attachment 15599632
> 
> View attachment 15599633
> 
> View attachment 15599634


More light alloy black hardermite goodness. Respect your elders ;-)


----------



## notional

CitizenPromaster said:


> On page 1, in post #5 I wrote:
> _This brings us to *MISCONCEPTION 3: *underneath the fancy coating Citizen uses cheap a$$ (Grade 2 or whatever) titanium.
> (...)
> Now I am not saying Citizen uses Grade 5 (Ti6Al4V), I think they don't, but the first row in the below 'yellow' table seems to suggest Citizen doesn't use 99,7% titanium, which is 'pure' titanium like Grade 2. However, you might also say that all that is claimed in the first row is that Citizen doesn't use 99,7% grade titanium at the surface. What they actually use is anyone's guess, there are 38 grades! Titanium alloy - Wikipedia So I don't feel confident to say the misconception is truly a misconception, but it is likely Citizen has their own alloy recipe by now._
> 
> During my time away from WUS @notional decided to contact Citizen about it, so here is a belated "thank you" for your post, notional!
> 
> I don't know who he spoke to at Citizen, but the test piece result gives credence, and again, looking back after 5 years, I have no reason to doubt that they indeed use Grade 1 Ti and rely on their surface treatment technologies for durability. Also, refinishing is not a concern to Citizen, because they are in the business of selling new watches, not in the business of refinishing old watches. And all these modern Citizen calibers, when you send them to Citizen for repair, they just put in a new one if they stilll have stock, and if they don't, you are out of luck. Similarly, car manufacturers don't care that all these new cars full of electronics might be unrepairable (economically) 20 years from now, when all the computers and screens inside are dead, because then they can sell you a new car again. Capitalist countries have throw-away societies after all.


Here's a copy of the reply I got from Citizen. Great folks who responded in a timely manner to my questions.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Thanks notional. It makes sense to use grade 1, since commercially pure titanium is the least difficult to machine, and being a watch case is not a hard task compared to being a jet engine part et cetera, so pure titanium plus the Duratect surface treatments are probably the most cost effective option for a low-tech part like a watch case, especially if you develop and apply the surface treatments in-house like Citizen does.


----------



## DerangedGoose

CitizenPromaster said:


> Thanks notional. It makes sense to use grade 1, since commercially pure titanium is the least difficult to machine, and being a watch case is not a hard task compared to being a jet engine part et cetera, so pure titanium plus the Duratect surface treatments are probably the most cost effective option for a low-tech part like a watch case, especially if you develop and apply the surface treatments in-house like Citizen does.





CitizenPromaster said:


> Also, refinishing is not a concern to Citizen, because they are in the business of selling new watches, not in the business of refinishing old watches. And all these modern Citizen calibers, when you send them to Citizen for repair, they just put in a new one if they stilll have stock, and if they don't, you are out of luck. Similarly, car manufacturers don't care that all these new cars full of electronics might be unrepairable (economically) 20 years from now, when all the computers and screens inside are dead, because then they can sell you a new car again. Capitalist countries have throw-away societies after all.


I feel I should apologize for not thoroughly going through the thread! I thank you two for your diligence in uncovering these answers.

I understand that service is not a significant money maker for citizen; but do you mean to say that Citizen would flat out refuse / be unable to refinish an older watch where the duratect was compromised? I assume these parts are treated after machining.


----------



## DerangedGoose

Also, does anyone know if the higher end eco drive duratect chronomasters also have the "fit adjuster" clasp?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

It's okay, DG, I understand that not everybody feels like reading 28 pages when they come across this thread. And if the question was "What is the difference between TIC and MRK", I would surely say "please read page 1 of this thread", but your questions about refinishing and the titanium grade are not really answered on page 1, so it was worth compiling an updated answer.

As for what would Citizen do when you ask them to refinish a watch? I can only speculate. The parts are Duratect treated after brushing and polishing, which are specialized jobs, and I doubt service centers are even trained to do brushing and polishing, certainly not Zaratsu polishing like on The Citizen models. From what I hear from others on WUS, the only thing they are capable of is replacing parts, and often they don't have the parts anymore. On older watches they usually refuse the work AFTER you send it in, and then try to sell you a new watch with a discount.

But as I mentioned before, I think they are technically unable to refinish compromised Duratect TIC and MRK. But with their Customer Service being so nice, you could always ask them ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

DerangedGoose said:


> Also, does anyone know if the higher end eco drive duratect chronomasters also have the "fit adjuster" clasp?


Not that I have noticed. They come with half-links. The Citizen Chronomaster AQ4041-54L: A Masterwork in Understated Brilliance | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


----------



## CitizenPromaster

We've been talking about clasps, and some of us have the pleasure of owning a watch with the Promaster "fit adjuster" clasp, which is either (brushed) TIC, MRK or MRK+DLC (and a few models had this clasp with the "Finger Print Free" coating), but I think more people are familiar with the non-fit adjuster version that was put on EU and Asia Promaster models, and since recent times has also appeared on the international (like aafanatic's CC7015-55E) and JDM (like on Ziptie's CB0171-97E) Promaster models, so whilst they used to always be (brushed) TIC, they are now also MRK (CB0171-97E and CB0206-86X), MRK+DLC (CC7015-55E and AT8195-85L) or DLC only (CB0177-58E). Here is the clasp in TIC:








So what am I getting at? Well, I think this clasp had it's 20th anniversary last year! Also, I think this clasp marked Citizen's move from Metal Injection Molding (MIM) titanium parts (cases) and thin, stamped titanium parts (clasps) - as were used in the 90s - to the thicker, forged/machined parts (both cases and clasps) that we still know and love today.

I found a JDM watch (RC Attesa) from around 2000 that has this venerable Promaster clasp in GMC (Glass Multi-layer Coating), which is an amazing sight to me, because you really notice the grainy, sparkly, glassy top layer. That is if my eyes don't fool me. I do know for sure all the other RC watches of this type were GMC, but they had simple clasps and bracelets with folded links.









This is what the folded bracelets and stamped clasps for these RC watches used to look like in the 90s:

















Interestingly, at the same time the "EU Promaster clasp" debuted on a solid link bracelet, Citizen also debuted on a JDM RC watch with a solid link bracelet a new type of clasp that is in the same style as, or a precursor to what I would call the "US Promaster clasp" as seen on for example the US Skyhawk A-T. So the year 2000 was a milestone for Citizen clasps!


----------



## DerangedGoose

Wow! Folded titanium links! I would never have thought it would be worth the hassle.

Regarding the restoration of duratect, I figured they would proclaim it not serviceable, but I was hoping someone had tried. I guess eco drives dont usually make it to "sentimental" territory far enough for someone to go through the process?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Well that is the age old debate about are scratches character or just ugliness? One could argue that the scratches could have sentimental value. “This scratch happened when I rescued that woman from a burning car, and it turned out to be Jessica Alba and we fell in love.” No such stories with my watch though


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Upon closer inspection the first iteration of the Promaster clasp still had a stamped folding part.









It is more evident on this stainless steel version of the clasp, on a JDM Promaster from 2000.









The current folding part looks like below (stainless steel example), which you will know if you own it ;-) As far as I know this started at least as early as 2003.










Another angle (titanium example)


----------



## Wolfsatz

Citizen PMD by Wolfsatz, on Flickr


----------



## CitizenPromaster

And here is the even better, even more amazing fit-adjuster JDM Promaster clasp, which as far as I know only exists in titanium, not in stainless steel.








What I actually like more about it than the coveted micro-adjust function, is the fact that the main push buttons not only operate the "primary lock", but also the pins for the "secondary lock", instead of relying on the usual "springbar with balls" like the EU Promaster clasp has, so it is truly double locking.

After opening and closing it countless times, the secondary lock on my 2008 EU Promaster doesn't really grip anymore, and it comes loose quite easily, which annoys me. I happen to have a titanium Seiko with a similar clasp and the "springbar with balls" secondary lock, and that grips like Xenia's thighs (GoldenEye reference), so that mechanism can certainly work properly, but on my particular Citizen I am not impressed, since it was never very tight to begin with. Is yours better?

Is there anyone else who is crazy like me and never snaps their clasp shut, but uses the push buttons for both opening and closing? I do that to prevent wear. And on the JDM clasp I even open and close the secondary lock using the push buttons. Ripe for the nuthouse I am.


----------



## mi6_

CitizenPromaster said:


> And here is the even better, even more amazing fit-adjuster JDM Promaster clasp, which as far as I know only exists in titanium, not in stainless steel.
> View attachment 15713015


Nope that clasp is also available in stainless steel on Citizen Promaster Divers including the BN0100-51E and BN0156-56E.

BN0100-51E:







J









BN0156-56E:


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@mi6_ That is the last clasp I was going to mention, that clasp has a diver's extension, different purpose, different mechanism.


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> And here is the even better, even more amazing fit-adjuster JDM Promaster clasp, which as far as I know only exists in titanium, not in stainless steel.
> View attachment 15713015
> 
> What I actually like more about it than the coveted micro-adjust function, is the fact that the main push buttons not only operate the "primary lock", but also the pins for the "secondary lock", instead of relying on the usual "springbar with balls" like the EU Promaster clasp has, so it is truly double locking.
> 
> After opening and closing it countless times, the secondary lock on my 2008 EU Promaster doesn't really grip anymore, and it comes loose quite easily, which annoys me. I happen to have a titanium Seiko with a similar clasp and the "springbar with balls" secondary lock, and that grips like Xenia's thighs (GoldenEye reference), so that mechanism can certainly work properly, but on my particular Citizen I am not impressed, since it was never very tight to begin with. Is yours better?
> 
> Is there anyone else who is crazy like me and never snaps their clasp shut, but uses the push buttons for both opening and closing? I do that to prevent wear. And on the JDM clasp I even open and close the secondary lock using the push buttons. Ripe for the nuthouse I am.


That clasp adjustment mechanism does look to be superior even to the ratcheting diver extension on the BN0100 and BN0150. Do you know if it would be possible to just buy the titanium clasp and replace the stock stainless clasp? Just an idea, maybe crazy I know.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> That clasp adjustment mechanism does look to be superior even to the ratcheting diver extension on the BN0100 and BN0150. Do you know if it would be possible to just buy the titanium clasp and replace the stock stainless clasp? Just an idea, maybe crazy I know.





DerangedGoose said:


> On a side note, has anyone seen those clasps for sale? I may try to just fit one to my existing titanium eco drive...





CitizenPromaster said:


> Seperate clasps for sale? Not that I know of, and people have been looking a long time.


I have seen the EU Promaster clasps for sale as parts, the JDM Promaster and Attesa fit-adjuster clasps appear to be unobtanium so far...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Here's an obscure old JDM titanium Promaster


































Never seen this before on Yahoo Auction. Probably from 1995, just before the introduction of the Eco-Drive brand?


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have seen the EU Promaster clasps for sale as parts, the JDM Promaster and Attesa fit-adjuster clasps appear to be unobtanium so far...


Ok, wishful thinking I guess. Why does all the really good stuff end up JDM only? Come on Citizen, the rest of us will buy it too, really we will.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Ok, wishful thinking I guess. Why does all the really good stuff end up JDM only? Come on Citizen, the rest of us will buy it too, really we will.


I think it's a cultural thing. Not throwing Japanese pearls before Western swine. I can't really blame them haha


----------



## dgaddis

sky21 said:


> Ok, wishful thinking I guess. Why does all the really good stuff end up JDM only? Come on Citizen, the rest of us will buy it too, really we will.


It's like they don't like money.


----------



## mi6_

CitizenPromaster said:


> @mi6_ That is the last clasp I was going to mention, that clasp has a diver's extension, different purpose, different mechanism.
> View attachment 15713745
> 
> View attachment 15713746


You're right. I looked at it and thought it was the same. My bad.


----------



## martyloveswatches

I had the 48mm titanium 800m (5503 quartz mvt) from 1992. I dont know what was the titanium coated with, but it held up fantastic. Few very small hairlines, not a problem there; the problem was with the chewed crown/tubus and finding titanium for this was impossible. Finally it was replaced with the ss one and that solved the problem...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

mi6_ said:


> You're right. I looked at it and thought it was the same. My bad.


Nothing bad about that, I appreciate you trying to contribute knowledge to this thread!

I am really not familiar with watch brands other than Citizen, so the only (titanium) clasp that I know of that rivals and surpasses the JDM fit-adjuster clasp in functionality, engineering and finish, is the clasp on the Tudor Pelagos, that has three fixed micro-adjust positions, and a fourth spring-loaded position PLUS a diver's extension.






It is clearly on another level, but for the money you can't beat the JDM Promaster fit-adjuster clasp.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

martyloveswatches said:


> I had the 48mm titanium 800m (5503 quartz mvt) from 1992. I dont know what was the titanium coated with, but it held up fantastic. Few very small hairlines, not a problem there; the problem was with the chewed crown/tubus and finding titanium for this was impossible. Finally it was replaced with the ss one and that solved the problem...


Nice, these were of course pre-Duratect, and labeled as TIN, for which the official explanation was (auto-translated):
"The side is made of titanium material with excellent durability and touch resistance. Hardness close to cemented carbide, lighter than cemented carbide."
In a graph the TIN is shown as having as having a Vickers hardness of 1,000 Hv.










That's all I've been able to gather about this particular TIN so far. Around 2002 Citizen used something they called TIN as well, but that was only 600-800 Hv, and it seems to be unrelated.

If I speculate about the surface treatment... seeing as the TIB I discussed recently and the TIN are the same hardness, but one is black in appearance and the other is silver, I would guess they are both early variations of titanium nitride (TiN), TIB possibly being TiCN or TiAlN or AlTiN.

When speculating about Duratect α earllier, I wrote:

_Considering the hardness of Duratect α, I'm guessing it is some variant of titanium nitride (TiN).
Wikipedia: "There are several commercially used variants of TiN that have been developed since 2010, such as titanium carbon nitride (TiCN), titanium aluminium nitride (TiAlN or AlTiN), and titanium aluminum carbon nitride, which may be used individually or in alternating layers with TiN. These coatings offer similar or superior enhancements in corrosion resistance and hardness, and additional colors ranging from light gray to nearly black, to a dark iridescent bluish-purple depending on the exact process of application."_

Considering that TiN variants were still being developed commercially in recent times, that might be the reason Citizen was being so vague and secretive about their surface treatments in the 80s and 90s. It was state of the art technology, and they were laying the groundwork for all of the Duratect variations of today.


----------



## martyloveswatches

Tnx for the info 
I really enjoyed that one.

Poslano sa mog SM-G960F koristeći Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

As for the Promaster clasps with diver's extension, the stainless steel version shown above is not truly double locking, instead having the "springbar with balls", as can be better seen below.









Eerlier in this thread I linked to a thread about the PMX56-3002 full of pictures, on the pic below you can see that the JDM titanium Promaster clasp with diver's extension is truly double locking, like the JDM titanium Promaster clasp with fit adjuster.








And a nice view from the other side








And here you see the clasp non-extended in all it's DLC splendor









The earlier iteration of the titanium Promaster clasp with diver's extension was shown in post #377









It also came in stainless steel


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> And here is the even better, even more amazing fit-adjuster JDM Promaster clasp, which as far as I know only exists in titanium, not in stainless steel.
> View attachment 15713015
> 
> What I actually like more about it than the coveted micro-adjust function, is the fact that the main push buttons not only operate the "primary lock", but also the pins for the "secondary lock", instead of relying on the usual "springbar with balls" like the EU Promaster clasp has, so it is truly double locking.
> 
> After opening and closing it countless times, the secondary lock on my 2008 EU Promaster doesn't really grip anymore, and it comes loose quite easily, which annoys me. I happen to have a titanium Seiko with a similar clasp and the "springbar with balls" secondary lock, and that grips like Xenia's thighs (GoldenEye reference), so that mechanism can certainly work properly, but on my particular Citizen I am not impressed, since it was never very tight to begin with. Is yours better?
> 
> Is there anyone else who is crazy like me and never snaps their clasp shut, but uses the push buttons for both opening and closing? I do that to prevent wear. And on the JDM clasp I even open and close the secondary lock using the push buttons. Ripe for the nuthouse I am.


Would this be an example of the JDM fit-adjuster clasp in SS on the PMD56-3081?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Would this be an example of the JDM fit-adjuster clasp in SS on the PMD56-3081?


Very much so, great find! Looking at the product page it is actually stainless steel coated in Duratect Platinum, aka Duratect PTIC.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> That clasp adjustment mechanism does look to be superior even to the ratcheting diver extension on the BN0100 and BN0150. Do you know if it would be possible to just buy the titanium clasp and replace the stock stainless clasp? Just an idea, maybe crazy I know.


Sometimes you can get lucky (in Japan) and find a used bracelet + clasp, like this used PMD56-3081 bracelet with fit adjuster that was offered with a start bid of 3,000 yen (less than 30 USD at current exchange rate). This was back in 2014 though so it's long gone...

The good news, there appears to be a brand new bracelet + clasp currently in stock here for 10,520 yen: Citizen 純正 22mm バンド PMD56-3081 , H112-T016651 (4-T016651) 用 腕時計 ステンレスベルト :59-T00826:ECワイド - 通販 - Yahoo!ショッピング

Being stainless steel with PTIC I don't know how good it will color match a regular stainless steel bracelet, and then there is the matter of actually swapping it out...


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> Very much so, great find! Looking at the product page it is actually stainless steel coated in Duratect Platinum, aka Duratect PTIC.


Yeah, it looks like a great clasp to me. Only thing I see different than the Ti version you posted above is it doesn't have the true double lock, just the "spring bar with balls" as you call it. But the fit adjuster part looks great!


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> Very much so, great find! Looking at the product page it is actually stainless steel coated in Duratect Platinum, aka Duratect PTIC.


Actually when I follow your link to the product page it does appear that the newest version of this watch does have the true double lock JDM fit adjuster clasp. The used one I posted a photo of appears to have the inferior double ball lock system so perhaps they have updated it.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Actually when I follow your link to the product page it does appear that the newest version of this watch does have the true double lock JDM fit adjuster clasp. The used one I posted a photo of appears to have the inferior double ball lock system so perhaps they have updated it.


Yeah, the spare part bracelet I posted also has the balls, but indeed Citizen.jp shows the double locking feature, but so far I haven't been able to find a watch for sale (on Yahoo Auction) that has the true double lock, so maybe it is a lazy webmaster re-using photos and inadvertently doing false advertizing. I hope not...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I managed to get the pic out of the product page, it is the same style as the other pics for this watch and the correct bracelet, so I don't know what is going on.


----------



## aafanatic

This just in: MRK DLC "Black Eagle" PVM65-2242


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Amazingly rare and beautiful version of an iconic watch!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Super Titanium is not feminine enough, so for the xC [cross sea] ladies watches Citizen has coined the term Titania. But don't worry, it's still organic pure titanium!



> Surprisingly light and scratch resistant Super Titanium ™ "Titania"
> Using Citizen's unique technology, surface hardening technology Duratect is applied to pure titanium to achieve a hardness that is approximately five times that of stainless steel. It is resistant to scratches, light (about 40% lighter than stainless steel), and gentle on the skin, so it can be used comfortably in all seasons.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Upon even closer inspection, it turns out these early JDM Promaster clasps *without* a fit adjuster and with the stamped folding parts are actually truly double locking!










Weirdly the notch to put your finger in to open it is the wide version as seen on the (current) EU Promaster clasp, whilst the JDM Promaster clasp *with* fit adjuster has a narrow notch.










The featured watch is a JDM titanium Navihawk C650, released in, you guessed it, the year 2000 (July).


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> Upon even closer inspection, it turns out these early JDM Promaster clasps *without* a fit adjuster and with the stamped folding parts are actually truly double locking!
> 
> View attachment 15718911
> 
> 
> Weirdly the notch to put your finger in to open it is the wide version as seen on the (current) EU Promaster clasp, whilst the JDM Promaster clasp *with* fit adjuster has a narrow notch.
> 
> View attachment 15718913
> 
> 
> The featured watch is a JDM titanium Navihawk C650, released in, you guessed it, the year 2000 (July).
> 
> View attachment 15718915


Does it seem like Citizen is maybe moving away from the true double lock system as shown above that used to be more prevalent ? A majority of their new watches, even JDM models, seem to only have the "spring bar with balls" as a secondary lock mechanism. Perhaps a cost cutting design choice?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Does it seem like Citizen is maybe moving away from the true double lock system as shown above that used to be more prevalent ? A majority of their new watches, even JDM models, seem to only have the "spring bar with balls" as a secondary lock mechanism. Perhaps a cost cutting design choice?


Indeed, in another thread I wrote recently:


CitizenPromaster said:


> Oh I wasn't suggesting they were at the level of The Citizen, Citizen would never give the US something top tier LOL, that's why I wrote "US market alternative", not "US market equivalent". The US generally gets tier 3, EU and Asia get tier 2. The Signature collection looks like tier 2 though.
> Since the last few years there are some international "top tier" models, but instead of giving the US, EU and Asia tier 1, they are giving everyone including domestic buyers tier 2 watches, meaning the "quality" is dropping, for example, no more micro-adjust clasp, a cheaper laser engraved caseback. The good news is that this new product strategy is bringing Duratect MRK and Duratect DLC to the international market, which used to only get Duratect TIC.


These semi-JDM/international models (that I've mentioned earlier) have no truly double locking feature and no micro-adjust. I have speculated in this thread as to why:


Triku said:


> That CB0171 is calling me. I have two PMD56 and will sell one and the 0171 could be my next watch.
> The Non ajustable clasp is a deal breaker right now but could find a Titanium 20mm clasp from other model ( no MRK).





CitizenPromaster said:


> Yes, it's a real shame the micro-adjust clasp is being discontinued, even on the most expensive models. I'm sure people are willing to pay 5,000 yen extra for it, if cost is the issue for Citizen.
> Maybe since these are now often world models rather than JDM models, they don't want the rest of the world to find out what they were missing out on?
> A cover-up of past features seems unlikely though, so I have no clue what Citizen's motivation is to discontinue the micro-adjust clasp. Doesn't make any sense.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Once you start paying attention to something... Now I've found a PMV65-2271, AND a seperate PMV65-2271 bracelet that have the titanium JDM Promaster fit adjuster clasp, but get this, both don't have the truly double locking feature, but the "springbar with balls". I am losing the plot!










Unfortunately I can't date these two examples as the bracelet doesn't have a serial, and the serial on the watch was blurred by the seller, but I do know that my 2271 is from May 2011 and it has the truly double locking feature. However, going through my collection of photographs of 2271's from 2010 to 2018, most of them actually have the "springbar with balls", as early as September 2011. My photo collection is focussed on the bezels and serial numbers (because of my previous research), so I didn't save photos of the clasps on the ones from 2010, but what I think happened is that they made one big batch or several batches of truly double locking clasps with fit adjuster from 2003 onwards - starting with the PMD56-2771 - and when those ran out in 2011 the batches after that were made with the simplified design. So what about that Citizen.jp photo in #582 then? Perhaps it was a prototype watch and the prototype department still has old clasps laying around, so they used that...

So now the variations that we've identified so far are (in order of appearance on the market):

Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with stamped folding part (as seen on early JDM models)
Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on early JDM models)
Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on early/current EU models and current JDM models)
Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on later/current JDM models)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

This PMD56-2952 from 2007 has the true double lock, while current ones don't, which fits the above narrative.


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> Once you start paying attention to something... Now I've found a PMV65-2271, AND a seperate PMV65-2271 bracelet that have the titanium JDM Promaster fit adjuster clasp, but get this, both don't have the truly double locking feature, but the "springbar with balls". I am losing the plot!
> 
> View attachment 15720346
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I can't date these two examples as the bracelet doesn't have a serial, and the serial on the watch was blurred by the seller, but I do know that my 2271 is from May 2011 and it has the truly double locking feature. However, going through my collection of photographs of 2271's from 2010 to 2018, most of them actually have the "springbar with balls", as early as September 2011. My photo collection is focussed on the bezels and serial numbers (because of my previous research), so I didn't save photos of the clasps on the ones from 2010, but what I think happened is that they made one big batch or several batches of truly double locking clasps with fit adjuster from 2003 onwards - starting with the PMD56-2771 - and when those ran out in 2011 the batches after that were made with the simplified design. So what about that Citizen.jp photo in #582 then? Perhaps it was a prototype watch and the prototype department still has old clasps laying around, so they used that...
> 
> So now the variations that we've identified so far are (in order of appearance on the market):
> 
> Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with stamped folding part (as seen on early JDM models)
> Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on early JDM models)
> Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on early/current EU models and current JDM models)
> Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on later/current JDM models)


I wonder if Citizen have gotten some kind of feedback over the years that the fit adjuster clasp just isn't that necessary for most people?? Why else would they be increasingly removing such a fantastic part of their product that has helped to differentiate them from almost all other market competitors??


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> I wonder if Citizen have gotten some kind of feedback over the years that the fit adjuster clasp just isn't that necessary for most people?? Why else would they be increasingly removing such a fantastic part of their product that has helped to differentiate them from almost all other market competitors??


Your guess is as good as mine... I blame the bean counters, the same people that decide to build a factory in China or Thailand. To be fair, the price for some of these Promasters, excluding tax, has remained the same for 10 years now, despite inflation etc. Maybe that is only possible because of cost cutting by simplifying parts and moving production to low labour cost countries. And to have new watches - that have "fresh" R&D costs to earn back - at the same price level, they cut costs further by scrapping the fit adjuster and fancy casebacks. Again, my solution would be to add 5,000 yen to the price, but the bean counters probably want "competitive" prices.


----------



## Wilks139

Hi, first of I'd like to say this is a fantastic thread. Great to see enthusiasts fill in the blanks created by brand!

I have recently purchased a BN0118, the "new ray mears" and noticed that the UK citizen website only specifies it as super titanium. When researching and trying to find what type of duratect the watch has I found some forums suggesting that if Super Titanium is the only specified feature then it doesn't have duratect. However having read this thread I suspect that the watch actually has Duratect TIC giving it around a 1000 vickers rating but I would really appreciate it if someone could confirm?

If this watch is Duratect TIC then am I right in thinking it has a very similar level of hardness to the JDM promaster land that is similar but has the atomic timekeeping?

I think it's great that this "ray mears" version of the promaster tough is effectively a UKDM watch but it seems the EU citizen website has less info than the Asian website and the UK website has even less.

If anyone can clarify for me that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Glad to hear you enjoyed this thread!
5 months ago Ziptie asked "Any insight into the Super Titanium Armor finish?", and after he pointed out he was referring to a model called Armor, I answered:



CitizenPromaster said:


> Haha okay I never visit the USA website so I didn't know there was a model called Armor. Usually when Super Titanium is unspecified, it is Duratect TIC = titanium carbide. This is confirmed more or less in the text for the other Armor model (Super Titanium Armor | Citizen).
> "It sports a silver-tone bracelet band and case, both made of our lightweight Super Titanium, which is 40% lighter and 5 times harder than stainless steel, and is both rust and scratch resistant."
> 
> That is the standard line of 200 Hv for stainless steel and 1000~1200 Hv for the Duratect TIC.


That's all the clarification I can offer!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

One way I resist the urge to buy stuff I don't really need and can't really afford is to collect images of the stuff. I've been drooling over the PMD56-2772 and JY8025-59E for ages now, but if I buy them they will just collect dust, since I already have a PMV65-2271 I don't even wear because it is mint, and I already have two other Promaster Pilot watches for everyday use.
So here is a collage I made of the same bracelet these watches have, in three variations, from top to bottom:

PMD56-2772: MRK + FPF glass coating (seemingly not brushed & polished)
PMV65-2271: MRK (brushed & polished)
JY8025-59E: MRK + DLC (brushed & polished)


----------



## Wilks139

Oh thats disappointing! I was hoping I could get some clarification for certain.

The UK citizen website specifies super titanium as 5x harder than stainless steel as you can see from the below technology link.





Technology | Eco-Drive and More | Citizen


Better Starts Here, from the Eco-Drive to Super Titanium and Atomic Timekeeping to Satellite GPS, the technology that belongs in your watch.




www.citizenwatch.co.uk





But unfortunately these claims aren't repeated in any of the watch descriptions specified as super titanium on the web site, as can be seen from the link to the watch I am asking about.








Promaster Tough


<div data-content-type="row" data-appearance="contained" data-element="main"><div data-enable-parallax="0" data-parallax-speed="0.5" data-background-images="{}" data-element="inner" style="justify-content: flex-start; display: flex; flex-direction: column; background-position: left top...




www.citizenwatch.co.uk





From reading this thread and based on what you have said as well as what is said on the UK website I would guess that you are correct. As stated at the begining of the thread EU/UK "Super Titanium" = Duratect TIC. It would be very misleading for them to specify super titanium as being 5x harder than SS on their website and then not provide this feature on watches labeled as super titanium.

It does beg the question of why not provide clarity, they are clearly capable of doing this based on the information offered on other regional website so why not do it on all websites.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I have noticed too that some regional websites are less clear in providing product information than others, I can only speculate why. Perhaps the regional Citizen branches feel it would only cause confusion if they specify beyond Super Titanium, also, they would then have to properly explain all the different Duratect variants, and the consumer will be overwhelmed, or feel cheated that they don't get the best surface treatment (Duratect Alpha). Citizen just wants you to buy into the whole Super Titanium thing, the message being that it is superior to stainless steel.

But since the Tough is listed as Super Titanium and Super Titanium is listed as 5x harder than stainless steel, that is conclusive evidence for Duratect TIC in my humble opinion. The only reason I don't say I know for certain, is to appear modest ;-) And for legal reasons LOL


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## Wilks139

Don't worry I have no interest in getting into any legal entanglements! Haha.

Are you aware of any instances where the term super titanium is used that doesn't come with some sort of duratect? The version of the promaster tough available outside of the UK is particularly interesting as that is listed as stainless steel with a super titanium coating. I presume that means duratect applied to stainless?


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## CitizenPromaster

Stainless steel with Super Titanium? Which one would that be?


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## GaryK30

CitizenPromaster said:


> Stainless steel with Super Titanium? Which one would that be?


The Promaster Tough is one.






Promaster Tough - Men's Eco-Drive BN0211-50E Steel Watch | CITIZEN


Test the extremes with the brand new CITIZEN Promaster Tough series. Living up to its name, this timepiece features a monocoque case (2 piece construction resulting in no caseback) resulting in extreme rigidity, shock resistance and anti-magnetism. Super Titanium™ coating on a stainless steel...




www.citizenwatch.com





_Super Titanium™ coating on a stainless steel case and bracelet allowing for anti-rust, scratch resistance, hypo-allergenic and 5X harder than stainless steel. _


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## mi6_

Super Titanium = Duratect. That said there are different grades and types of Duratect.


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## Ziptie

mi6_ said:


> Super Titunaium = Duratect. That said there are different grades and types of Duratect.


You, ah... must be new here. ;-)


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## CitizenPromaster

Well in Japan they have stainless steel plus PTIC as we recently discussed, so I would guess that Promaster Tough has stainless steel plus TIC = titanium carbide. What else would it be?


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## CitizenPromaster

Nowadays Citizen EU does specify "regular" Super Titanium watches as being Duratect TIC. This became necessary when international models with Duratect MRK or Duratect DLC became available on the European market.










Citizen Italy still doesn't specify beyond Super Titanium on the product pages, and before they (forcedly) adopted the label "Super Titanium", they used the old label "Ti+IP". Only when you look on their page about Super Titanium do you see a low-key specification as part of a chart:










All this to further proof that (non-black) unspecified Super Titanium coatings are either Duratect TIC or Duratect PTIC, 100% certain ;-)


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## mi6_

Ziptie said:


> You, ah... must be new here. ;-)


I corrected the typo if that's what you were pointing towards. Citizens marketing uses the description "Super Titanium" which they also refer to as Duratect. I'm no expert on any of it, so I'll leave it up to the scientist on this thread to explain the differences between all the variants.






Technologies for People | CITIZEN Technologies


CITIZEN is ready to take on daunting technological challenges. We are not just making high-specification timepieces,we are creating something better for everyone.



www.citizenwatch-global.com


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## CitizenPromaster

mi6_ said:


> I corrected the typo if that's what you were pointing towards. Citizens marketing uses the description "Super Titanium" which they also refer to as Duratect. I'm no expert on any of it, so I'll leave it up to the scientist on this thread to explain the differences between all the variants.


He was pulling your leg, because you were stating the "obvious", obvious to those familiar with this thread, since the relation between Super Titanium and Duratect and all the differences between the variants are explained on page 1, and much of it has been repeated or expounded upon in subsequent pages. So he was just teasing you, nothing to do with typos ;-)

Anyway, it used to be that Super Titanium was the marketing term for the combination of (pure) titanium with a (Duratect) surface treatment, but now that they are applying a "_Super Titanium™ coating on a stainless steel case and bracelet_", the term becomes even more meaningless!


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## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> He was pulling your leg, because you were stating the "obvious", obvious to those familiar with this thread, since the relation between Super Titanium and Duratect and all the differences between the variants are explained on page 1, and much of it has been repeated or expounded upon in subsequent pages. So he was just teasing you, nothing to do with typos ;-)


Correct. Welcome to the chat!


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## mi6_

Ok sorry I guess the context was lost on me.


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## CitizenPromaster

There is another titanium milestone that for some reason is ignored by Citizen when they discuss the history of their titanium watches, and that is the Walter Wolf Racing Chronograph from the early 80s. There is one on Yahoo Japan Auction right now getting a lot of bids. This is a very rare watch that fetches top dollar (yen). I will just post one picture and for more details I refer to articles by VCW and +9.
Citizen Walter Wolf Chronograph - Vintage Citizen Watches
Brochure: Citizen and Walter Wolf Racing - Plus9Time


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## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> There is another titanium milestone that for some reason is ignored by Citizen when they discuss the history of their titanium watches, and that is the Walter Wolf Racing Chronograph from the early 80s. There is one on Yahoo Japan Auction right now getting a lot of bids. This is a very rare watch that fetches top dollar (yen). I will just post one picture and for more details I refer to articles by VCW and +9.
> Citizen Walter Wolf Chronograph - Vintage Citizen Watches
> Brochure: Citizen and Walter Wolf Racing - Plus9Time
> 
> View attachment 15726963


Just looked at the auction listing, can I assume you are one of the 85 potential bidders that have this as a favorite?


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## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Just looked at the auction listing, can I assume you are one of the 85 potential bidders that have this as a favorite?


I am, but I think most of those 85 followers, like me, just want to see how high it goes, I'm not participating in the bids.


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## CitizenPromaster

They are around on WUS though:
##### WRUW Citizen - August 2020 ##### | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
MY VINTAGE WALTER WOLF FORMULA 1 CHRONOGRAPH WATCH BY CITIZEN | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
And one was offered for €700
F.S.: Citizen cronograph 8110 Walter Wolf titanium. | WatchUSeek Watch Forums

The bids on the one on Yahoo skyrocketed in the last 10 minutes and the auction kept being extended again and again. In the final bidding war it went from around €300 to €875!!!! (106,555 yen)

The seller had it listed as quartz, so he has no idea it's the 8110A flyback chronograph automatic. He must be surprised by the highest bid!

As you can see in the articles I linked to, this watch was also offered in BL, which is the light aluminum alloy with black hardermite coating.


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> They are around on WUS though:
> ##### WRUW Citizen - August 2020 ##### | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> MY VINTAGE WALTER WOLF FORMULA 1 CHRONOGRAPH WATCH BY CITIZEN | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> And one was offered for €700
> F.S.: Citizen cronograph 8110 Walter Wolf titanium. | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> 
> The bids on the one on Yahoo skyrocketed in the last 10 minutes and the auction kept being extended again and again. In the final bidding war it went from around €300 to €875!!!! (106,555 yen)
> 
> The seller had it listed as quartz, so he has no idea it's the 8110A flyback chronograph automatic. He must be surprised by the highest bid!
> 
> As you can see in the articles I linked to, this watch was also offered in BL, which is the light aluminum alloy with black hardermite coating.


Quite the bidding war at the end there!! As a newcomer to the world to Yahoo Japan Auctions, do you know what will cause the auction to keep being extended over and over like that? Does the auction software just do that until the bids stop coming in to keep the price going up? Kind of negates the actual action end time in the listing.


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## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Quite the bidding war at the end there!! As a newcomer to the world to Yahoo Japan Auctions, do you know what will cause the auction to keep being extended over and over like that? Does the auction software just do that until the bids stop coming in to keep the price going up? Kind of negates the actual action end time in the listing.


I have answered your question here: (3) Buying Citizen watches on Yahoo! Japan Auction (via Buyee and such) | Page 4 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


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## CitizenPromaster

Today in "obscure titanium Citizen watches", the Thunder Bird, assembled in China


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## CitizenPromaster

I don't know of many DLC watches that were sold in Europe before the arrival of the recent "international" Promaster models. The only one I can think of is the AS4035-04E (with caliber E670), which came with a special strap with a DLC clasp. This model dates to around 2010, MSRP was €650. Very hard to find these days.


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Boo! I am the Ghost of Citizen Titanium Technology Past.
> 
> One of the images on page 1 that got deleted by tinypic showed an overview of Citizens titanium from before they coined the term Duratect.
> I mentioned then that this was from 2001, but I have since posted a Duratect overview from 1999, so let's say this describes Citizen's titanium technology of the late 1990s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The below Promaster Tough watch (from a Russian guy who imported it) is an example of a DURATITAN watch, as you can see from the label. It was a nitriding heat treatment technology, so it is distinct from MRK and TIC, as can be seen in the Duratect overview from 2002 I posted.
> 
> View attachment 15618293
> 
> View attachment 15618297
> 
> View attachment 15618298


Boo again! Just for the record, Citizen has used titanium alloys in the past. The above info (yellow) from the late 90s and this "new" info below from 2008 tells us those alloys were only used on Exceed models.


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Boo again! Just for the record, Citizen has used titanium alloys in the past. The above info (yellow) from the late 90s and this "new" info below from 2008 tells us those alloys were only used on Exceed models.


Well what are the odds? There's one of those Exceed watches for sale right now. It actually says TITANIUM ALLOY on the caseback!


















It has some type of dive extension clasp


















Addition to this post:
This Exceed watch made from titanium alloy was made in September 1994, for the collection of 1995. While Attesa's were all titanium around this time. most Exceeds were still stainless steel, and a few were variations of cemented carbide (Citizen's hardest material at the time, as seen in a graph in post #573). Only a few Exceeds were titanium, hence the word TITANIUM is prominently featured on the dial. I actually found it in the 1995 catalogue. It was part of a series of four watches with a similar case/caseback and bracelet/clasp.


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## CitizenPromaster

Here is another Exceed made from titanium alloy that's for sale. I think these titanium alloy Exceeds are pretty rare, but they seem to be sold for very little money. Mind you, these Exceeds have an accuracy of +- 10 sec/year!


















And here is the catalogue from 1994. The first 10 is describing the 10 bar water resistance, the second 10 is describing the annual accuracy with normal temperatures.
As you can see, it was 100,000 yen in 1994. The one above probably only needs a battery, yet has a starting bid of 3,000 yen!!! Only 16 cm bracelet though ;-)










In the 1995 Catalogue it is the first watch listed under the "Titanium Alloy Series" - "New material (titanium alloy) combined with European Taste"










The names "Fine Titanium" and "Hard Fine Titanium" (as seen in the overview in post #617) were coined in 1996 when the stronger "Hard Fine Titanium" alloy debuted on some Exceed watches, and the ones that came before were then labeled "Fine Titanium".


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## CitizenPromaster

And who doesn't remember the 1996 Citizen Titanium Club? With wonderful GMC titanium watches. For the "urban businessman in his mid-thirties".


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## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> And who doesn't remember the 1996 Citizen Titanium Club? With wonderful GMC titanium watches. For the "urban businessman in his mid-thirties".
> 
> View attachment 15735508


So as a sort of "urban businessman" who is now in his mid 40s am I not allowed to wear a titanium promaster? Not office appropriate for me anymore?


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## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> So as a sort of "urban businessman" who is now in his mid 40s am I not allowed to wear a titanium promaster? Not office appropriate for me anymore?


They had Promasters in 1996 too, but they were for the "avid sports enthusiast in his twenties and thirties", so you don't qualify for those either!
I bought my first Promaster when I was 24, and now I'm in my mid-thirties, so I'm Citizen approved ;-)


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## CitizenPromaster

I found a Japanese text (auto-translated below) that confirms that on the PMP56-2933 production was limited to 3,000 per year because of the DLC + MRK.

An authentic pilot watch that wraps Citizen's eco-driving radio-controlled watch chronograph movement in the strongest material is now available in the "Promaster Sky" series. The titanium material of the main parts such as the case, band, and bezel is treated with gas hardening "MRK" to increase the surface hardness of the material itself, and DLC (diamond-like carbon) is applied to the upper surface. This extremely scratch-resistant process is Citizen's first attempt. Functionally, in addition to a chronograph capable of measuring 1/20 seconds, local time, alarms, etc., it is equipped with an internal cash register type aviation slide rule. In addition, the sapphire glass of the windshield is also given an anti-reflective coating, making it a model that functions as an authentic pilot watch. The image of the flight instrument is incorporated into the design processing of the small dial at 2 o'clock and the hour and minute hands, making it a model that is reminiscent of an aircraft in design as well as function. Since the multi-row design metal band, which is difficult to process, is double-hardened, it will be a limited production model of 3000 pieces per year.


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## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> I found a Japanese text (auto-translated below) that confirms that on the PMP56-2933 production was limited to 3,000 per year because of the DLC + MRK.
> 
> An authentic pilot watch that wraps Citizen's eco-driving radio-controlled watch chronograph movement in the strongest material is now available in the "Promaster Sky" series. The titanium material of the main parts such as the case, band, and bezel is treated with gas hardening "MRK" to increase the surface hardness of the material itself, and DLC (diamond-like carbon) is applied to the upper surface. This extremely scratch-resistant process is Citizen's first attempt. Functionally, in addition to a chronograph capable of measuring 1/20 seconds, local time, alarms, etc., it is equipped with an internal cash register type aviation slide rule. In addition, the sapphire glass of the windshield is also given an anti-reflective coating, making it a model that functions as an authentic pilot watch. The image of the flight instrument is incorporated into the design processing of the small dial at 2 o'clock and the hour and minute hands, making it a model that is reminiscent of an aircraft in design as well as function. Since the multi-row design metal band, which is difficult to process, is double-hardened, it will be a limited production model of 3000 pieces per year.


So how many years did they actually produce the 2933 at 3000 per year? And you have 2 of them, very cool!


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## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> So how many years did they actually produce the 2933 at 3000 per year? And you have 2 of them, very cool!


They were introduced Winter 2006 and discontinued Spring 2010, so assuming production stopped Winter 2009, that is three years, so a maximum of around 9,000 watches? Which is still a lot in my opinion. My list of serial numbers for the PMV65-2271, which is not DLC, just MRK, seems to indicate that Citizen didn't make more than 250 a month of those, which is also 3,000 pieces per year. They are JDM watches after all, and not everyone in Japan buys a Citizen, even less buy Promasters, and I'm surprised if they were actually able to sell 3,000 PMV65-2271's per year!


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## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> They were introduced Winter 2006 and discontinued Spring 2010, so assuming production stopped Winter 2009, that is three years, so a maximum of around 9,000 watches? Which is still a lot in my opinion. My list of serial numbers for the PMV65-2271, which is not DLC, just MRK, seems to indicate that Citizen didn't make more than 250 a month of those, which is also 3,000 pieces per year. They are JDM watches after all, and not everyone in Japan buys a Citizen, even less buy Promasters, and I'm surprised if they were actually able to sell 3,000 PMV65-2271's per year!


Isnt the PMV65-2271 still in production for the JDM market?


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## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Isnt the PMV65-2271 still in production for the JDM market?


It is, I was talking about the production in the first years, in an attempt to put things into perspective (Decoding the mordern Citizen Serial number for Date of Manuafacture? | Page 3 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums)


----------



## Mitch100

CitizenPromaster said:


> I don't know of many DLC watches that were sold in Europe before the arrival of the recent "international" Promaster models. The only one I can think of is the AS4035-04E (with caliber E670), which came with a special strap with a DLC clasp. This model dates to around 2010, MSRP was €650. Very hard to find these days.
> 
> View attachment 15729879
> 
> 
> View attachment 15729887


I think this is a great watch. I have one and it is a real looker. The case is DLC as well as the titanium buckle on the strap.





Nice lume as well.



I like a bracelet though and Citizen did not ever make one for this watch so I sourced a black titanium bracelet in Germany and it fitted very well.





For a size comparison here it is with some other full DLC titanium watches.



Mitch


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## CitizenPromaster

Very cool @Mitch100 Thanks for the additional photos. Your bracelet looks like a good alternative!


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> So now the variations that we've identified so far are (in order of appearance on the market):
> 
> Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with stamped folding part (as seen on early JDM models)
> Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on early JDM models)
> Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on early/current EU models and current JDM models)
> Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (as seen on later/current JDM models)


This rabbit hole keeps getting deeper. I found two pictures, an early EU model, AS4050-51E, and the stainless steel version, the AS4020-52E, that have the Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part! My AS4050-51E is pretty early, from April 2008, and it doesn't have this clasp. Unfortunately I don't have a clear picture of the casebacks, so I can't date them, and I also don't know exactly when the AS4050-51E and AS4020-52E were introduced, but it can't be earlier than late 2006. So this clasp must have been very short-lived.

AS4050-51E









AS4020-52E









And to proof it really is what it seems, I found in my archive a sister model of the same early vintage that shows the inside of the clasp. This is the steel bracelet, which you can tell by the lack of holes on most of the links.










So now the variations that we've identified so far are (with approximate production years):

Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with stamped folding part (2000 ~ 2003)
Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (2003 ~ 2011)
Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part (2006 ~ 2008)
Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part (2008 ~ now)
Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (2011 ~ now)


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Meanwhile two Yahoo Auction sellers are trying to sell the Titanium Tech. 50th Ann. CC4025-82E for 550,000 yen including tax, while the one offered for 400,000 yen hasn't even sold yet. No one seems interested. Pretty shameful for Citizen if you ask me... All that effort for a celebratory watch that no one wants!


I have more to say about this here.


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## Dante80

This Attesa arrived yesterday here, posting in mint condition for posterity sake.





































Hoping that I don't abuse it too much. Case+Bracelet is Duratect, Bezel is Duratect DLC


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## CitizenPromaster

Dante80 said:


> Case+Bracelet is Duratect, Bezel is Duratect DLC


Case+Bracelet is Duratect What? ;-)


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## Dante80

CitizenPromaster said:


> Case+Bracelet is Duratect What? ;-)


I'm guessing basic Duratect (TiC).

The description is
デュラテクトチタンカーバイト・デュラテクトDLC
(シルバー色・ブラック色)　

Which translates to

Duratect Titanium Carbide - Duratect DLC (Silver / black)


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## CitizenPromaster

@Dante80 Correct! This Citizen Hong Kong product page is more clear about it: CB3016-51Z | CITIZEN WATCH
But on the Citizen Japan product page アテッサ CB3016-51Z ［CITIZEN-シチズン］ you can see they actually have a (new) symbol for it.


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## Dante80

CitizenPromaster said:


> @Dante80 Correct! This Citizen Hong Kong product page is more clear about it: CB3016-51Z | CITIZEN WATCH
> But on the Citizen Japan product page アテッサ CB3016-51Z ［CITIZEN-シチズン］ you can see they actually have a (new) symbol for it.
> View attachment 15741982


Good catch, hadn't paid attention to the symbols at the bottom. There is also a







at the far left. Moreover, my case back says "Base Titanium" and "Duratect" at two different places.


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## CitizenPromaster

Yeah, I think "base titanium" is a legal or industry requirement to identify the base material, especially important for gold plated watches.


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## CitizenPromaster

Dante80 said:


> Hoping that I don't abuse it too much.


We've all seen the abused DLC watches I've posted, that was a fun theme to come back to, but to be honest, I don't see that many abused TIC or MRK watches.

Today however, I found a JY8020-52E from 2011 for sale, which is the EU version of the PMV65-2271, so it is not Duratect MRK, but Duratect TIC, and of course it doesn't have the fit adjuster clasp and the knurling on the bezel is less refined.

The polished bezel is pretty roughed up, right? Now scroll down to the bracelet and clasp...


















I think this is the worst Duratect TIC abuse I have ever seen. And this joker still wants €380 = $460 for it!


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> We've all seen the abused DLC watches I've posted, that was a fun theme to come back to, but to be honest, I don't see that many abused TIC or MRK watches.
> 
> Today however, I found a JY8020-52E from 2011 for sale, which is the EU version of the PMV65-2271, so it is not Duratect MRK, but Duratect TIC, and of course it doesn't have the fit adjuster clasp and the knurling on the bezel is less refined.
> 
> The polished bezel is pretty roughed up, right? Now scroll down to the bracelet and clasp...
> 
> View attachment 15742393
> 
> View attachment 15742395
> 
> 
> I think this is the worst Duratect TIC abuse I have ever seen. And this joker still wants €380 = $460 for it!


Wow, now if that isn't an advertisement for paying a little more to get the JDM versions with the Duratect MRK I'm not sure what is!!


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## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Wow, now if that isn't an advertisement for paying a little more to get the JDM versions with the Duratect MRK I'm not sure what is!!


You can get them for similar money these days, so the PMV is certainly the better choice, but even though TIC is 1,000 ~ 1,200 Hv and MRK is 1,300 ~ 1,500 Hv, I wonder if MRK would look much better after this level of abuse.


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> @Ziptie Anyway, congrats on this nice little trinity. Can you see a visual difference between the TIC and the MRK? I have described previously that MRK is less reflective and warms up quicker in direct sunlight, I wonder if you agree.


Finally pulled them out into the daylight together to take pictures today. I haven't really noticed or paid attention to how fast they warm up. The MRK definitely has a bit of a different color tone than I've seen before, it has a pale tint of color in the green / yellow / gold spectrum, whereas the TIC is a pure gray silver. I tried to capture the difference in these photos. Unclear how well it will display on any given device.


----------



## Ziptie

Dante80 said:


> This Attesa arrived yesterday here, posting in mint condition for posterity sake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoping that I don't abuse it too much. Case+Bracelet is Duratect, Bezel is Duratect DLC


Gorgeous!!


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## [email protected]




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## CitizenPromaster

@Ziptie Yeah these things are very hard to photograph, the differences are very subtle even to the naked eye. Nice watches though!


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## CitizenPromaster

Here is my TIC clasp for comparison. I'm not a construction worker, and I take it off when doing things like moving house (why risk bumping into stuff), but it's been all over the world in the past 13 years as my "beater" and it has plenty of scratches, but it looks miles better than that abused one, and at arm's length only the deepest scratch is noticeable.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> What are the odds, two weeks after re-posting this, the rare 1,300m diver comes up for sale on Yahoo Japan Auctions.
> 
> View attachment 15469421
> 
> View attachment 15469429
> 
> View attachment 15469422
> 
> View attachment 15469435
> 
> View attachment 15469423
> 
> View attachment 15469433
> 
> View attachment 15469431
> 
> View attachment 15469424
> 
> View attachment 15469436
> 
> 
> Starting bid 180,000 yen, buyout price 280,000 yen. I'm glad my titanium milestone Citizen is not crazy money like that!


Maybe Citizen is following this thread after all ;-) They are introducing an affordable (no sapphire) homage to the titanium 1,300m Professional Diver!!!










『シチズン プロマスター』　1982年に発売した「プロフェッショナルダイバー」をオマージュ　「エコ・ドライブ ダイバー200m」 が登場 ［CITIZEN-シチズン］

Brilliant move by Citizen, these are going to sell like crazy! 55,000 yen excluding tax is by far the least expensive Duratect MRK or Duratect DLC watch. As a reminder, a PMD56-2951 is 65,000 yen and the PMD56-2952 is 70,000 yen, and both are TIC, and the mont bell CB017x's - being MRK or DLC - start at 70,000 yen. This homage doesn't have a titanium bracelet, which would probably add 20,000 yen (MRK) or 30,000 yen (DLC), but it seems like Citizen really made an effort to keep the price down, which surely will help with sales.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

And Citizen isn't stopping there, a brand new high-end mechanical diver with all kinds of Duratect










『シチズン プロマスター』　強化耐磁仕様のメカニカルダイバーズウオッチが登場　外装にスーパーチタニウム™を使用し軽さを実現　2021年5月発売予定 ［CITIZEN-シチズン］

Notice again how the bezels an all these dive watches are TIC for watches with an MRK case, and DLC for watches with an MRK + DLC case, because of "reasons". I'm not going to repeat that heated discussion lol, but this illustrates again that MRK is not used for rotating dive watch bezels.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Citizen Global is communicating all three of the homage watches, and only 1 of the mechanical divers. They state more clearly what I already pointed out: the bezel is TIC or DLC.









CITIZEN PROMASTER Three new Eco-Drive Diver 200m models inspired by CITIZEN's iconic 1982 Professional Diver watch (citizenwatch-global.com)









New CITIZEN PROMASTER Mechanical Diver 200m with magnetic resistance Lightweight and durable with CITZEN's proprietary Super Titanium™ (citizenwatch-global.com)


----------



## arlee

ohhh this is great I've always wanted one, now lets see if they re-release the 300M and 800M


----------



## Igorek

Just when I am done with watches Citizen comes up with this....


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> This rabbit hole keeps getting deeper. I found two pictures, an early EU model, AS4050-51E, and the stainless steel version, the AS4020-52E, that have the Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part! My AS4050-51E is pretty early, from April 2008, and it doesn't have this clasp. Unfortunately I don't have a clear picture of the casebacks, so I can't date them, and I also don't know exactly when the AS4050-51E and AS4020-52E were introduced, but it can't be earlier than late 2006. So this clasp must have been very short-lived.
> 
> So now the variations that we've identified so far are (with approximate production years):
> 
> Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with stamped folding part (2000 ~ 2003)
> Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (2003 ~ 2011)
> Promaster clasp WITH true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part (2006 ~ 2008)
> Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITHOUT fit adjuster, with machined folding part (2008 ~ now)
> Promaster clasp WITHOUT true double lock, WITH fit adjuster, with machined folding part (2011 ~ now)


As the contents of this thread shows, I can be a little obsessive, so now that I know that my AS4050-51E exists with a truly double locking clasp, I have to have one! But the AS4050-51E doesn't get offered used all that often, and when it does, it will likely be one produced between 2008 and 2019, and those don't have the truly double locking clasp that I'm after. Well, it took all of 2 days for one to appear on a Dutch used goods website! The pictures were a bit fuzzy, so I couldn't judge the wear, but I was able to bargain and I thought it was worth the risk. It was a 60 mile drive, and holding the watch it turned out to be about as beat up as the TIC watch I showed on page 32, but I wasn't going home empty-handed! So here they are side by side.










If we look closer, we can see that my "beater" has lived a very blessed life. Also notice the smaller Citizen logo on the truly double locking clasp (right).










My "new" AS4050-51E really has taken a beating though, look how the "strut" is bent down, and how the flip lock is bent outwards. Now that is a "beater"!










I'm not really bothered about the wear and tear, but the seller said it was as in good condition, and I have a different definition of "good" haha, but to be fair, it seems to work fine and he says the battery was replaced in recent years, so functional wise it does seem to be in good condition, and I paid €200 ($240).

Now for the date. My AS4050-51E is from April 2008, and this one is from May 2007! As I've said before, I don't know when production started, but I doubt there are many older ones around in Holland. The knurling is better on this old one. It's amazing how many other differences in machining/tolerances I can find between these two supposedly identical watches. And actually, despite all the scratches, the older TIC is much more reflective, it looks closer to stainless steel. Maybe it was polished more before the brushing was applied? Or maybe not all TIC comes out the same? Fascinating stuff haha.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Igorek said:


> Just when I am done with watches Citizen comes up with this....
> View attachment 15746174


You might be done with watches, but watches are not done with you ;-)


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> As the contents of this thread shows, I can be a little obsessive, so now that I know that my AS4050-51E exists with a truly double locking clasp, I have to have one! But the AS4050-51E doesn't get offered used all that often, and when it does, it will likely be one produced between 2008 and 2019, and those don't have the truly double locking clasp that I'm after. Well, it took all of 2 days for one to appear on a Dutch used goods website! The pictures were a bit fuzzy, so I couldn't judge the wear, but I was able to bargain and I thought it was worth the risk. It was a 60 mile drive, and holding the watch it turned out to be about as beat up as the TIC watch I showed on page 32, but I wasn't going home empty-handed! So here they are side by side.
> 
> View attachment 15747208
> 
> 
> If we look closer, we can see that my "beater" has lived a very blessed life. Also notice the smaller Citizen logo on the truly double locking clasp (right).
> 
> View attachment 15747189
> 
> 
> My "new" AS4050-51E really has taken a beating though, look how the "strut" is bent down, and how the flip lock is bent outwards. Now that is a "beater"!
> 
> View attachment 15747190
> 
> 
> I'm not really bothered about the wear and tear, but the seller said it was as in good condition, and I have a different definition of "good" haha, but to be fair, it seems to work fine and he says the battery was replaced in recent years, so functional wise it does seem to be in good condition, and I paid €200 ($240).
> 
> Now for the date. My AS4050-51E is from April 2008, and this one is from May 2007! As I've said before, I don't know when production started, but I doubt there are many older ones around in Holland. The knurling is better on this old one. It's amazing how many other differences in machining/tolerances I can find between these two supposedly identical watches. And actually, despite all the scratches, the older TIC is much more reflective, it looks closer to stainless steel. Maybe it was polished more before the brushing was applied? Or maybe not all TIC comes out the same? Fascinating stuff haha.


Wow, what a find, and now you have 3 of the same watch!! So will you mix and match them, like wearing the true double locking clasp with your own beater watch?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Wow, what a find, and now you have 3 of the same watch!! So will you mix and match them, like wearing the true double locking clasp with your own beater watch?


No, only 2 ;-) I sold the brand new AS4050-51E I had (see post #282) when I decided to start buying watches from Yahoo Japan Auction.
I'm going to keep the watches as they are, I might wear the "superbeater" every now and then to remind myself that what I call watch abuse is normal use for others ^_^


----------



## dgaddis

Those new divers look cool but damn they're big, 46mm and over 15mm thickness. Hard pass for me. I _REALLY_ wish they would do a 40mm diver with a 45-46mm lug to lug, 12-13mm thick, radio controlled, super simple design (no sub dials, giant pushers, minimal text on the dial, etc - LESS IS MORE). Think a scaled down "basic" promaster diver but radio controlled.

Basically I want a solar/radio controlled version of the Black Bay 58 as far as size and simplicity goes.


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> No, only 2 ;-) I sold the brand new AS4050-51E I had (see post #282) when I decided to start buying watches from Yahoo Japan Auction.
> I'm going to keep the watches as they are, I might wear the "superbeater" every now and then to remind myself that what I call watch abuse is normal use for others ^_^


Of course, now I remember you talking about selling the new one. Yeah it looks like your idea of a beater is a lot of others seller's idea of NOS.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I have to point out one more thing. The TIC obviously shows the very hard use, but the sapphire crystal on this "superbeater" is still mint with the exception of two tiny chips at the edge, but you really have to look for them. A Vickers Hardness of 2,000+ Hv is the real deal!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Speaking of sapphire, I love sapphire as much as I love titanium, and I've been wanting to get a sapphire watch crystal for a long time, just to fiddle with. But I don't have an account at that well-known Chinese website, so I never got around to it. Then my brother was on their website and he wanted to buy something for me that I didn't want. I said: "If you want to buy me something, buy me a sapphire crystal, the thickest and largest there is!" Well, that is the one pictured below, but the biggest one you can actually order is 39x3.0mm. That is about the same size as the sapphire crystal on the Promaster Pilot watches that I and some of you have. The only difference is, if you look carefully, Citizen's sapphire crystal seems to have a tiny beveled edge for extra impact resistance.










Here you can just about see the beveled edge on the sapphire crystal. The out of focus part is the top, the dark line is the bevel, the lighter part is the side.


----------



## PetWatch

CitizenPromaster said:


> Speaking of sapphire, I love sapphire as much as I love titanium,


Do I sense the definitive sapphire thread coming up? If it's half as good as this one it will be great!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I can't help but be irked by the damage on my "superbeater", but I try to view it as a barn find...










The picture I posted in WRUW actually captures the shininess of the 2007 TIC watch quite well (left).










I didn't take proper comparison shots back then, but my 2019 AS4050-51E was noticeably brighter than my 2008, but I don't think it was shinier, just lighter in color. I wrote at the time:
"I actually noticed that the black parts on the dial have faded slightly, probably from 12 years of sunshine (thought I haven't really worn it the last 5 years), but it seems that the Duratect TIC has also somewhat aged. It has become slightly darker, assuming they started out the same color."
Now I'm thinking they probably didn't start out the same color, and that the polishing, brushing and ion-plating can produce many different outcomes for TIC. And probably for MRK and DLC too. My two PMP56-2933's also have a slight color difference. The fact that the Vickers Hardness is given in ranges already indicates that differences can occur in the surface treatment, and I imagine the same is true for polishing and brushing.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

PetWatch said:


> Do I sense the definitive sapphire thread coming up? If it's half as good as this one it will be great!


Maybe one day ;-) I've been unfair to the Chinese sapphire crystal though, it actually has the tiniest of bevels as well, on both sides. I guess that's just the norm.

Here's a little throwback saturday (post #280):

Sapphire = 2300 Hv, MRK bezel = 1300 ~ 1500 Hv, human hand/wrist = ??? Hv










Poor BY0080-65E (Pilot H610 Blue Impulse) and poor owner


----------



## Dante80

A question. I'm currently looking for a radio solar dress watch, something a little more refined than the standard Attesa series. Looking around, I think that the Citizen Exceed line offerings would be the most fitting. 

There are a lot of models to choose, and all of them list a base titanium construction with applied Duratect platinum (and Duratect pink gold sometimes) coatings.
Can someone explain what these are? Is it a surface treatment on the base titanium using platinum or gold alloys? Maybe a coating, like electroplating gold into metal?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Exceed seems like a good option if you want something more dressy/refined.

Duratect PTIC (platinum titanium carbide) is explained on page 1, in the table in post #3. More details are provided on page 9 in post #175.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Fun fact: the batteries used in modern Citizen Eco-Drive watches actually contain titanium too, as they are from Panasonic's CLT series and MT series.


----------



## aafanatic

@Dante80 If you go with "The Citizen" instead of Exceed you wouldn't need radio sync as they are +/- 5 sec a year 
Here's my Attesa gold MRK DLC


----------



## Dante80

aafanatic said:


> @Dante80 If you go with "The Citizen" instead of Exceed you wouldn't need radio sync as they are +/- 5 sec a year


Heh that is true, but that series sits somewhat outside my budget, for the moment.. 😅
Moreover, I don't strictly "need" the watch to be radio or GPS, it's just that I like the idea of a somewhat mundane and unassuming three hander hiding a lot of tech like world time, solar charging or perp calendars. Something like a stealth quality watch if you get what I mean (this is a reason I have an Attesa and an Oceanus, after all).


----------



## Tiribos

.


----------



## Ziptie

Dante80 said:


> Heh that is true, but that series sits somewhat outside my budget, for the moment..
> Moreover, I don't strictly "need" the watch to be radio or GPS, it's just that I like the idea of a somewhat mundane and unassuming three hander hiding a lot of tech like world time, solar charging or perp calendars. Something like a stealth quality watch if you get what I mean (this is a reason I have an Attesa and an Oceanus, after all).


Maybe check out the Stiletto series as well. Though I believe the Exceed models are higher-end.


----------



## Maddog1970

Just landed this CC3067-88E....and I know it's "coated", gonna guess PVD.....unless someone else knows for sure?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Nice, you might be the first on WUS! It is stainless steel plus DLC.


----------



## Maddog1970

CitizenPromaster said:


> Nice, you might be the first on WUS! It is stainless steel plus DLC.
> 
> View attachment 15754585


Perfect......thanks......

I do love a "coated" watch.....and the F150 mvmnt is pretty much identical to the F158 in my GPS diver....


----------



## dgaddis

CitizenPromaster said:


> Speaking of sapphire, I love sapphire as much as I love titanium, and I've been wanting to get a sapphire watch crystal for a long time, just to fiddle with. But I don't have an account at that well-known Chinese website, so I never got around to it. Then my brother was on their website and he wanted to buy something for me that I didn't want. I said: "If you want to buy me something, buy me a sapphire crystal, the thickest and largest there is!" Well, that is the one pictured below, but the biggest one you can actually order is 39x3.0mm. That is about the same size as the sapphire crystal on the Promaster Pilot watches that I and some of you have. The only difference is, if you look carefully, Citizen's sapphire crystal seems to have a tiny beveled edge for extra impact resistance.
> 
> Here you can just about see the beveled edge on the sapphire crystal. The out of focus part is the top, the dark line is the bevel, the lighter part is the side.


You can buy a huge variety of sapphire crystals from some of the Seiko mod companies (CrystalTimes, Namoki, DLW Watches, etc), and they're not that expensive. $35-$45 a pop generally. I've swapped several mineral crystals out for sapphire, including a double domed sapphire with a blue AR interior coating on my Promaster diver. Fits like it was made for it.










I recently 'built' a watch using a Seiko movement/dial/handset from a Monster and everything else is aftermarket. The case is based on the Seiko SKX013, and the crystals all require a fairly large bevel because the bezel insert actually sits over top part of the crystal. Compare how much of the bevel you can see in the two pics below.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I have always been skeptical about bracelet "stretch", since I never noticed any on my 13 year old AS4050-51E, which I wear very loose and which moves around all the time, so theoretically that should cause wear on the pins and holes, but it seems like it hasn't. That "superbeater" though, the "stretch" on that is very real! There is so much extra play between the links, that in total it amounts to what seems like an extra link! It is quite remarkable, I would never have expected a metal (titanium) bracelet - which does not experience the forces of a motorcycle chain - to wear that much.

Perhaps the TIC coating doesn't really penetrate the holes, so you end up rubbing pure titanium (100 ~160 Hv) and stainless steel pins (170 ~ 200 Hv) which are both not very hard, but even so, nothing happened on my "beater", but it clearly happened on the "superbeater", because I doubt it came from the factory being so loose.


----------



## Maddog1970

Last (sure!) purchase for now, new aqualand......citizen says "a stainless steel case coated with diamond-like carbon (DLC) accents".....so who knows what that actually means!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Well if I had to guess the bezel, crown and push buttons are DLC. DLC looks shinier on stainless, because stainless is shinier.


----------



## aafanatic

@Maddog1970 What a beauty Last/Latest, what's the difference?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

aafanatic said:


> @Maddog1970 What a beauty Last/Latest, what's the difference?


Maybe the difference is divorce?


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have always been skeptical about bracelet "stretch",


No side by side comparison photo?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> No side by side comparison photo?


I was trying to be lazy haha, but I will throw something together and post it from my phone.


----------



## Wolfsatz

Citizen ProMaster by Wolfsatz, on Flickr


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have always been skeptical about bracelet "stretch", since I never noticed any on my 13 year old AS4050-51E, which I wear very loose and which moves around all the time, so theoretically that should cause wear on the pins and holes, but it seems like it hasn't. That "superbeater" though, the "stretch" on that is very real! There is so much extra play between the links, that in total it amounts to what seems like an extra link! It is quite remarkable, I would never have expected a metal (titanium) bracelet - which does not experience the forces of a motorcycle chain - to wear that much.
> 
> Perhaps the TIC coating doesn't really penetrate the holes, so you end up rubbing pure titanium (100 ~160 Hv) and stainless steel pins (170 ~ 200 Hv) which are both not very hard, but even so, nothing happened on my "beater", but it clearly happened on the "superbeater", because I doubt it came from the factory being so loose.


Well I had a closer look, and the extra length is not from play between the links, but from the top end of the clasp, the part that connects to the bottom end link, it articulates more on the truly double locking clasp (the JDM clasps have this too) and on top of that it is bend in a way that adds length. So false alarm!

In the picture below you can see the difference, and I'm not talking about the micro-adjust position, I've changed that so that they are equal. The other end of the clasp.










So yeah, I'm still skeptical about bracelet "stretch".


----------



## CitizenPromaster

To clarify, I'm talking about the part with the S-profile when viewed from the side. That articulates a lot more on the truly double locking claps that I have, both the JDM with fit adjuster and the EU without fit adjuster. And it also prone to bending "outwards", so the S gets straightened out. I see that a lot on Yahoo Japan Auction. It is also usually the part that breaks.
On my EU clasp (not truly double locking and without fit adjuster) this part articulates much less, by which I mean it doesn't bend down and away from the clasp as far. Hope this makes sense.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

A picture speaks a thousand words. This is what I mean by "articulates more", and it gets worse if the "S" is bent straighter, like on my "superbeater" (see next post).
This is "normal" articulation on my PMV and "normal" articulation on my AS ("beater").


----------



## CitizenPromaster

And the effect is more extreme on my "superbeater" (left) VS my "beater" (right). The result of this extra length and articulation is that my "superbeater" can rotate upside down on my wrist.


----------



## Siddy




----------



## CitizenPromaster

I was looking at a photo of a PMD56-2772 recently, and the black coated bezel did not look like Duratect DLC to me, way too coarse and grainy.










So I started revisiting all the research I have done on the PMD56-2772, and the explanation was right in front of me all this time! Post #305 in this thread says:
*Newly adopted black "Duratect Black" surface treatment (patent pending) on titanium bezel with strong scratch resistance. By forming a ceramic coating of 20 to 30μ, we have achieved an altitude of HV500 (approximate value).*

Firstly, Citizen never refers to DLC as a ceramic coating (see post #3). Secondly, DLC is only 1 ~ 2μ (see post #175). Thirdly, DLC has a Vickers Hardness of 1,000 ~ 1,400 Hv (see post #3). No wonder then that they call this coating "Duratect Black", because it obviously is not Duratect DLC. And in the Duratect overview from 2002-2004 (see post #264), there is no mention of Duratect DLC yet, so DLC was probably still under development.

In contrast, the very similar PMD56-2776 (no numerals on the dial) was described on Citizen Japan's website from 2006 as having a DLC bezel, and as can be seen in below photo, it does look smooth, like all DLC we've seen in this thread. So now we know the difference between the 2772 and 2776 is not only the hour markers, but also the coating on the bezel, which changed from Duratect Black to Duratect DLC. The case and bracelet on the 2776 are still MRK + FPF judging by the matte grey color, though I've never seen the 2776 described as anything beyond MRK, though back then Citizen referred to MRK as "hard titanium", and the letters MRK were only seen in this accompanying mark.


















When DLC did arrive in 2005, Citizen Japan did not give any specifics on the Vickers Hardness, they only say (auto-translated from a 2006 page about Duratect):
*Duratect DLC for abrasion resistance and beautiful black
DLC is an abbreviation for Diamond Like Carbon, which is an amorphous hard carbon film mainly composed of carbon and hydrogen. Improved the surface processing technology DLC, whose application range was limited depending on the material, with our own technology. It is possible to process materials that were difficult in the past, and Citizen's original <Duratect DLC> realizes a hard and beautiful black case and band with high wear resistance.*

I hope you enjoyed this exploration of *Duratect Black*, a long lost variant of Duratect, that was used so shortly (probably only 2003/2004) that it never even made it into any of the Duratect overviews that I've found over the years. I guess I was so occupied with solving the FPF mystery when I wrote post #305 that I completely glossed over the sentences about Duratect Black. I have now redeemed myself!


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> I was looking at a photo of a PMD56-2772 recently, and the black coated bezel did not look like Duratect DLC to me, way too coarse and grainy.
> 
> View attachment 15759191
> 
> 
> So I started revisiting all the research I have done on the PMD56-2772, and the explanation was right in front of me all this time! Post #305 in this thread says:
> *Newly adopted black "Duratect Black" surface treatment (patent pending) on titanium bezel with strong scratch resistance. By forming a ceramic coating of 20 to 30μ, we have achieved an altitude of HV500 (approximate value).*
> 
> Firstly, Citizen never refers to DLC as a ceramic coating (see post #3). Secondly, DLC is only 1 ~ 2μ (see post #175). Thirdly, DLC has a Vickers Hardness of 1,000 ~ 1,400 Hv (see post #3). No wonder then that they call this coating "Duratect Black", because it obviously is not Duratect DLC. And in the Duratect overview from 2002-2004 (see post #264), there is no mention of Duratect DLC yet, so DLC was probably still under development.
> 
> In contrast, the very similar PMD56-2776 (no numerals on the dial) was described on Citizen Japan's website from 2006 as having a DLC bezel, and as can be seen in below photo, it does look smooth, like all DLC we've seen in this thread. So now we know the difference between the 2772 and 2776 is not only the dial, but also the coating on the bezel, which changed from Duratect Black to Duratect DLC. The case and bracelet on the 2776 are still MRK + FPF judging by the matte grey color, though I've never seen the 2776 described as anything beyond MRK, though back then Citizen referred to MRK as "hard titanium", and the letters MRK were only see in this accompanying mark.
> View attachment 15759162
> 
> 
> View attachment 15759197
> 
> 
> When DLC did arrive in 2005, Citizen Japan did not give any specifics on the Vickers Hardness, they only say (auto-translated from a 2006 page about Duratect):
> *Duratect DLC for abrasion resistance and beautiful black
> DLC is an abbreviation for Diamond Like Carbon, which is an amorphous hard carbon film mainly composed of carbon and hydrogen. Improved the surface processing technology DLC, whose application range was limited depending on the material, with our own technology. It is possible to process materials that were difficult in the past, and Citizen's original <Duratect DLC> realizes a hard and beautiful black case and band with high wear resistance.*
> 
> I hope you enjoyed this exploration of *Duratect Black*, a long lost variant of Duratect, that was used so shortly (probably only 2003/2004) that it never even made it into any of the Duratect overviews that I've found over the years. I guess I was so occupied with solving the FPF mystery when I wrote post #305 that I completely glossed over the sentences about Duratect Black. I have now redeemed myself!


For the few of us that enjoying all these little intricacies, thank you for doing all this research and putting forth a hypothesis. Very cool! 😀


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Once you know, and if you have good photos, it is pretty obvious.

Duratect Black









Duratect DLC


----------



## [email protected]

Mine did not say 'Duratect' or 'Duratect alpha' nor 'Super Titanium'. It just say Titanium. Most marketing descriptions say it is Duratect some Super T and read somewhere it's Duratect Alpha. What is this really?


----------



## Ziptie

Here's some satiny DLC.


----------



## sky21

Ziptie said:


> Here's some satiny DLC.


Another perfect illustration of just how smooth Duratect DLC really is and that the previously mentioned Duratect Black was indeed something else entirely. Thanks for the great pics!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I never really noticed, but the bezel on the (stainless steel) Blue Angels Nighthawk is actually ion-plated blue.










Photo stolen from: Low flyover and landing of the new Blue Angels Nighthawk BJ7006-56L | WatchUSeek Watch Forums

Citizen could do more with that option, like a completely blue case and bracelet. Others already do, even on titanium.



















And as far as I know Citizen has also never sold anodized titanium watches. Sure, it's not scratch resistant, but that can be stated as a trade-off for fun colors.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Wow, Bering even has a solar watch in blue titanium, for €279. And all their watches have sapphire. I want one! Yet I will remain loyal to Citzen...










One owner of this watch said it was still mint after two weeks of desk diving, but where the folding part of the clasp rubs on the inside of the bracelet, the blue was already wearing off.


----------



## aafanatic

Loving these titanium pics Keep 'em coming.
Here's some brushed and polished DLC on my CC2004-08E (#478-500)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I can picture it now... anodized PMV65-2271


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@kenls made some nice macro shots of his titanium Promaster BN0118-04E "New Ray Mears" | Page 4 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums

So we got the thread off-topic, I added my own attempt at macro shots and I ended by remarking "The laser engraving looks so freaky in close up. They should offer it as a new finish: bead blasted, brushed, polished and the all-new LASERED".

Well it turns out there is a similar finish to what I coined "Lasered" and it's called "Glass Blast" (shown below is a general chart for metals, not specifically titanium).










I think a fully Lasered or Glass Blast titanium watch would look really cool, and maybe small random scratches wouldn't be as noticeable as on a brushed watch.

But if you finish your watch in "Ice", you will never notice any scratches! Maybe I should convert my "superbeater" to Ice, because it's already halfway there ;-)


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> @kenls made some nice macro shots of his titanium Promaster BN0118-04E "New Ray Mears" | Page 4 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> 
> So we got the thread off-topic, I added my own attempt at macro shots and I ended by remarking "The laser engraving looks so freaky in close up. They should offer it as a new finish: bead blasted, brushed, polished and the all-new LASERED".
> 
> Well it turns out there is a similar finish to what I coined "Lasered" and it's called "Glass Blast" (shown below is a general chart for metals, not specifically titanium).
> 
> View attachment 15765183
> 
> 
> I think a fully Lasered or Glass Blast titanium watch would look really cool, and maybe small random scratches wouldn't be as noticeable as on a brushed watch.
> 
> But if you finish your watch in "Ice", you will never notice any scratches! Maybe I should convert my "superbeater" to Ice, because it's already halfway there ;-)


Have you applied for a trademark on the term superbeater yet?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> Have you applied for a trademark on the term superbeater yet?


Nope, I share the gems I mine from my mind freely with the world, because the universe will reward me and bla bla barf barf... ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

WARNING: The following post will be very technical and it may bore you to death. Proceed reading at your own risk.

Behind the scenes of this thread, I've been having an existential titanium crisis. Just as I had pretty much everything figured out with regards to Duratect MRK, I started seeing that in previous decades Duratect MRK watches had been shipped with tags that mark the model number as TIN.










There is no doubt that these are Duratect MRK watches, so why woud they be marked as TIN? Regular readers of this thread have seen those three letters before, on several occasions.

I have discussed Duratect TIN in post #264, the "nitriding heat treatment technology" from the early Eco-Drive Tough Series. The page from 2002 I posted showed that Duratect TIN was at 600 ~ 800 Hv while Duratect MRK was still only at 800 Hv.

I discussed the precursor to Duratect TIN in post #478, when it was still called DURATITAN, and I showed the tag of a DURATITAN watch that is also marked as TIN.










Finally, I have discussed the 90s Professional Diver's being marked TIN on the back in post #573, and I speculated that this is unrelated to the later TIN, since this older TIN is harder than the more modern TIN, the older TIN being 1,000 Hv.

Yesterday I was investigating the differences in surface treatments of the PMD56-277x Pilot watches. In digging up old websites, I have long ago found that these watches are described only has "hard titanium", and that MRK is only mentioned in the row of marks/symbols. The below page is from 2007.










But yesterday I found out that if we go back a bit further in time, we see that this same page mentions something different in January 2006.










Titanium nitride? Most of us understand TiN as titanium nitride, and most of us associate that with the golden coating on drill bits.










And that is exactly where the problem lies. The problem is not that Duratect MRK watches are marked as TIN, the problem is the associations I have with those three letters, as if they refer to a coating or to previous versions of Duratect. But all this TIN is referring to is that the surface of the watch is titanium nitride. And this is correct.

Let us first remember that pure, uncoated titanium does not have pure titanium at the surface. Let me quote Wikipedia, as they explain it succinctly:
"Like aluminium and magnesium, titanium metal and its alloys oxidize immediately upon exposure to air. Titanium readily reacts with oxygen at 1,200 °C (2,190 °F) in air, and at 610 °C (1,130 °F) in pure oxygen, forming titanium dioxide. It is, however, slow to react with water and air at ambient temperatures because it forms a passive oxide coating that protects the bulk metal from further oxidation. When it first forms, this protective layer is only 1-2 nm thick but continues to grow slowly; reaching a thickness of 25 nm in four years."

It is this titanium dioxide layer that is grown during anodizing, and thin-film interference causes the array of colors depending on the film thickness, as can be seen on the titanium samples in post #692.


















Great, but what has that got to do with Duratect MRK being titanium nitride? Well, Duratect MRK is not a material, it is a process. We know the auto-translations by now:
"The titanium material, the nitrogen and oxygen to penetrate from the surface, has been curing process the surface of the material."
"Nitrogen and oxygen enclosed in a vacuum oven, is a technique for hardening the surface of the watch by forming a cured layer of 20 ~ 30 .mu.m on the surface of the titanium material by heat treatment."

What do you get when you force nitrogen and oxygen to penetrate into titanium? Exactly, titanium nitride and titanium oxide. This was also stated in the "MRK patent" I quoted in post #274.
"In the case of using titanium or a titanium alloy as a decorative metal material, protrusions occur at the crystal grain boundary, these occurring due to stress concentration at the crystal grain boundary because of the formation of compounds such as titanium nitride (TiN) and titanium oxide (TiO2) at the crystal grain boundary, or lattice distortion caused by solid solution of nitrogen and oxygen."

So now we have the full picture. If we have to describe the surface material of a Duratect MRK watch on the product tag, we can't say MRK, because that is a process, not a material. And we can't say TiO2, because that is true for all titanium. We have to describe it as TiN, but it's not a TiN coating, but a TiN surface layer.

Nowadays they just avoid the matter completely and say "Surface treament - Duratect MRK", as shown below for the PMV65-2271.










And the tags on the PMV65-2271 don't mention TIN anymore, as can be seen below.










But here is the definitive evidence that I have connected the dots in the correct way...

In the past, on certain Japanese websites, the PMV65-2271 was still described as "Hard Titanium [TIN]", as shown below.










Conclusion: describing a Duratect MRK watch as TIN (as in TiN) on the tag or in the product description is confusing, but not contradictory. I can see why they switched from "Titanium nitride" to "Hard titanium", because most people will associate titanium nitride with the golden coating on drill bits. As this post illustrates, you need to have a fair amount of technical knowledge before you can understand that the Duratect MRK surface treatment results in a titanium watch with a titanium nitride (and titanium dioxide) surface layer.

If you made it this far, give yourself a pat on the back, and prepare for an even more confusing bonus post ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Now as this thread illustrates, Citizen has always been rather secretive about their surface treatments. One reason might be to not confuse the average consumer, another reason might be to not make the competition wiser than necessary. For example, the fact that the PMD56-2271 and PMD56-2772 have different surface treatments, the 2772 having a "glassy FPF coating", was never mentioned on the product page. Here we see it in 2004.










Late 2003, when the 2772 had not been released yet, the page was a bit more detailed, as it also showed the below.










So there is no doubt that the 2771 and 2772 are MRK. All of the information about the FPF coating on the 2772 that I shared in post #305 I found on a website that wasn't from Citizen, but it was clear that they must have been quoting Citizen. Well yesterday I finally found the source, which was a Citizen page about new products. The full announcement from October 2003 reads (auto-translated):

"Keep evolving. Promaster's innovative features, ultimate reliability, and sophisticated form inspire an aggressive mind. A model with new technological innovations added to the popular Promaster radio-controlled watch will be released. Newly adopted black "Duratect Black" surface treatment (patent pending) on the titanium bezel with strong scratch resistance. By forming a ceramic film of 20 to 30μ, the altitude of HV500 (approximate value) was achieved. In addition, the glassy coating FPF (Finger Print Free) makes it difficult for fingerprints and other stains to adhere. The case and bracelet are treated with MRK titanium (a technology that hardens the surface of Ti material in high temperature gas, patent pending), and FPF gives off the unique brilliance of hoting dark gray. Asahi light finish is used for the dial in consideration of visibility. It has the appearance of an "instrument" that pursues absolute accuracy."

I had found the announcement page for the 2771 previously, and it dates to June 2003.

"Endless curiosity about the unknown world. A radio clock is now available from Promaster. Commitment to functional beauty that eliminates all waste while being equipped with numerous high specs stimulates the aggressive mind of the person who got it. ■ Windshield made of sapphire glass with anti-reflective coating ■ Big face dial with an aviation slide rule as an internal cash register system ■ By adopting Naturite luminous and high-quality white paint, a precise and highly visible dial design comparable to the instrument panel of an aircraft is realized. ■ Metal band reminiscent of the wing cross section of an airplane ■ Fit adjuster clasp that can be fine-tuned with one touch so that it always fits comfortably on the arm ■ 30% expansion date that allows you to check the date instantly based on the idea of universal design ■ Equipped with an eco-drive that achieves a full charge of about 2 years (6 months if power save does not work)"

Notice there is no mention of MRK, and even worse, at the bottom of the page Citizen writes "Titanium + IP Plating".










This caused me a lot of "cognitive dissonance", because there is no doubt that the 2771 is MRK gas hardened*, not ion-plated.

*I have described MRK as gas hardening to keep it simple, but a more correct term, that is also used in the patent, is gas nitriding.

My first assumption was that the marketing department simply made a mistake. As we can see in the 2002 Duratect overview I referenced in the previous post, Duratect TIC already existed, even at the current hardness level of 1,000 ~ 1,200 Hv, which back then was harder than Duratect MRK.

Now I offer this very simple alternative explanation. When they announced the 2771 they had not yet decided on the surface treatment, or they were even planning on making the new Pilot watches Duratect TIC, like they are in Europe, as back then that was the surface treatment resulting in the hardest surface. For some reason for the JDM market they went with MRK at the last minute, and through the years they developed MRK to be 1,300 ~ 1,500 Hv.

Conclusion: the 2771 has been described as "Titanium + IP Plating" only once, so this must be an error or it was subject to change, as all other evidence points to the 2771 being Duratect MRK.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Notice how the clasp shown on the 2003 page about the 2771 is not the actual Promaster fit adjuster clasp, so they do indeed make "mistakes".


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today I posted this in WRUW

_Today I'm wearing my "I can't believe it's not stainless steel" early TIC watch._










_Compare this to the frosted look of my 1 year younger TIC watch_










_Same watch, same surface treatment, different polish and brush?_

I'm not sure which one is the outlier. Here is an AS4050-51E from 2013.










It looks pretty frosted to me, by which I mean, the shine is diffused and more uniform across the whole link.

Here is what a stainless steel AS4020-52E looks like in similar lighting and at a similar angle.










And below is the stainless steel version at its shiniest.










Aside from shine, I can name many differences between my beater and superbeater, but let me revive #bezelgate and point out that my 2007 AS, which might actually be from the very first production batch, has the JDM style knurling. My 2008 AS has particularly crude EU knurling, you can see on the 2013 AS that it got better.

A year ago I showed my 2008 AS next to the brand new 2019 AS that I've since sold, the photo is reposted below. The difference in knurling is visible again, as well as the huge gap between the case and the bezel on the 2008 AS. I guess I got unlucky with that one, but fortunately I didn't know until I started comparing it in recent years haha.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have to share this titanium oddity, officially marketed as titanium carbide as early as 2000, the PMH56-2531 (grey dial as below) and PMH56-2532 (blue dial), 60,000 yen plus tax when new.
> 
> So what is odd about it? It is Eco-Drive Duo, both solar and self-winding, like Seiko Kinetic.
> 
> View attachment 15519003
> 
> View attachment 15519004
> 
> View attachment 15519005
> 
> View attachment 15519006
> 
> 
> They also used it for the Attesa line.
> 
> View attachment 15519010
> 
> View attachment 15519011
> 
> 
> I knew about Eco-Drive Thermo, but I have no active memories of Eco-Drive Duo.
> 
> View attachment 15519014


Found another titanium Eco-Drive Duo. This one has the truly double locking Promaster clasp, without fit adjuster, with stamped folding part. I don't know about the surface treatment though.


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## CitizenPromaster

The Yahoo seller actually has a duo of Eco-Drive Duo's. Look closely ;-)


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## CitizenPromaster

Here's a TINS Citizen from the Sporte days, that's the old TIN and the S denotes the stainless steel bezel insert if I'm not mistaken.











































The BT one is "black chrome plated and teflon coated".


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## CitizenPromaster

Found a description of DURATECT-Titan on some guy's old website. If the info he quotes actually came from Citizen, the 800 Hv mentioned in post #263 might be some kind of average for the 1500 HV to 170 HV gradient mentioned below? This suggests that Duratect MRK (1300 ~ 1500 Hv) has not become harder, but that Citizen is just mentioning the hardness of the surface rather than the average of the gradient.
-----------------------------------
Want to know what Citizen Duratect Ti really is? Read below. This is why it is 3-4 times more scratch resistant than stainless steel.

This is a watch applied "DURATECT-Titan" that is the surface treatment technology of Ti. DURATECT-Titan processed layer is fabricated by the following processes; diffusion of Ni and O up to the depth of 20-30 micrometers, and interstitial-type solidification of Ni (~ 0.5 vol.%) and O (~ 3 vol.%) to the alpha phase in Ti (the lower temperature phase with body-centered cubic lattices). As a result, this brought continuous decrease in hardness in between surface (Ni-, Ti-rich part) and 30 micrometers depth (close-to-pure Ti part) from about 1500 HV to 170 HV. The hard-layer on the surface is not easy to delaminate since it has a graded function. This technology has been applied to outer parts such as watch bezels and bands.


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## CitizenPromaster

Citizen Watch Europe actually sells a handful of Duratect PTIC watches, this CB5020-87E is one of them.









You would never know how polished it is from above photo, but below photo makes it very clear.









You don't need PTIC though to get a high polish finish, as this TIC BM7470-84E shows.










Again the Citizen photo does a terrible job at capturing the polished surfaces.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I always think I'm going to run out of things to say about Citizen titanium, and then I find more things to research and chronicle!
> 
> This time I saw a post from lenny, who visited WUS between 2006 and 2016. He found a different version of the 800m professional diver that I've shown in this thread.
> 
> View attachment 15687222
> 
> View attachment 15687223
> 
> 
> He wrote: "According to Citizen Japan, this model was made in 1984. They had no other info except that the UK division may have some spare parts. As far as the composition, the gold parts are immersion gold plated titanium. I am not sure about the black portion. It does not feel like ss/titanium or plastic. Maybe magnesium?"
> 
> Well, if we look closely at the above picture, we can just make out TIB-IG on the caseback, and both TIB and TIB-IG are explained in old JDM Citizen catalogues as (auto-translate):
> TIB : black color titanium side : case made of titanium with black surface treatment
> TIBIG : black titanium + hard gold color side : a case made of titanium with a hard gold color treatment partially on the side that was subjected to a black surface treatment
> 
> I had translated the phrase about TIBIG before, but I had never found a watch that employed it. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us the nature of the black surface treatment, but at least we know that the black case is not magnesium but titanium, and it would make sense if it is black PVD as discussed on page 23.
> 
> So there you have it, black titanium in 1984!


Remember this TIB-IG 800m professional diver? Look how gold this one is!


















It will be interesting to follow this auction.


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## CitizenPromaster

My Duratect collection










Left to right: [JDM] PMP56-2901 (MRK), [EU] AS4050-51E (TIC), [EU] AS4050-51E (TIC), [JDM] PMP56-2933 (MRK + DLC), [JDM] PMP56-2933 (MRK + DLC), [JDM] PMV65-2271 (MRK)

The MRK on my 2006 PMP56-2901 looks pretty much the same as the MRK on my 2011 PMV65-2271, it's just that the brushing is a bit more coarse on the 2901.


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## CitizenPromaster

[email protected] said:


> View attachment 15762651
> 
> Mine did not say 'Duratect' or 'Duratect alpha' nor 'Super Titanium'. It just say Titanium. Most marketing descriptions say it is Duratect some Super T and read somewhere it's Duratect Alpha. What is this really?


Sorry, I missed this question. It is Duratect TIC.


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## CitizenPromaster

It's still hard to capture in a photo for many reasons, but like I was trying to show last year with my Color Math™, the best way to describe the "naked eye" difference between MRK and TIC is that MRK is more bronze/champagne. Here is my MRK PMP56-2901 and my least shiny TIC AS4050-51E.


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## GaryK30

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374035608058916866


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## Griz1

Preferred Citizen genuine crocodile strap w/titanium clasp on CC9016-01E super titanium Attesa. A japanese domestic market model.


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## CitizenPromaster

GaryK30 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374035608058916866
> View attachment 15781930


There are actually 4 watches in this collection.




コズミックブルー コレクション｜チタニウム技術50周年記念 スペシャルサイト [シチズン] (citizen.jp)


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## CitizenPromaster

Having found out about the truly double locking Promaster clasp on early AS4050-51E's, I decided to unpack my spare bracelet for the first time, as I had never done that since buying it in December 2010. I thought the chance was small that it would have been old stock from 2007 with the truly double locking clasp, and I was right, it doesn't have the older clasp. And even though it is covered in tape, you can see (in real life) the TIC is of the "frosted" variety, meaning the shiny TIC on my 2007 AS is the outlier.










I got a little discount on the bracelet, but I paid €174 for it (including separately packaged end links, excluding spring bars), which is pretty nuts considering I paid €519 for the watch, which was discounted because I bought it from someone grey importing them from Italy. The Dutch MSRP was €650 at the time, and in recent years it was €595. However, if you were to buy the bracelet today at Masters in Time, they charge €200, like for most titanium Citizen bracelets that are not DLC.

Weirdly, they haven't had this bracelet in stock for a long time, even though the successor CB5850 has the same bracelet code, so why is restocking them an issue?










So I actually have 6 of these bracelets, 3x TIC, 2x MRK + DLC, 1x MRK. Silly me haha.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

This titanium US Nighthawk from 2006 has a band that says CITIZEN / BASE TITANIUM / BAND CHINA on its truly double locking clasp and the clasp looks awfully similar to the one on my 2007 AS, except that mine says CITIZEN / TITANIUM. Weirdly, the factory has closed the holes on the bracelet links, usually that is how you identify the stainless steel bracelets.

I suspect the Promaster watches for the US and EU markets have been made in China since the early 2000s.


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## CitizenPromaster

And look how deep the engraving or stamping is compared to this not truly double locking clasp of a later model that is clearly laser engraved.


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Weirdly, the factory has closed the holes on the bracelet links, usually that is how you identify the stainless steel bracelets.


Open holes on the links made sense to me for titanium with a surface treatment, because you coat or harden the individual parts, then you assemble the bracelet.
This titanium bracelet with closed holes doesn't make sense to me.
a) the bracelet was assembled, the holes were closed (using what?), no surface treatment, but Citizen doesn't sell untreated titanium.
b) the bracelet was assembled, the holes were closed (using what?), then the complete bracelet was treated, but that doesn't seem very practical.
c) the bracelet parts were treated, then the bracelet was assembled, the holes were closed, but again, using what? The filler material has a different color, but what is it?

I don't know why they fill the holes on the stainless steel bracelet, nor with what they fill the holes. I guess for a smooth look, but it's not that smooth if you see the filler...


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## Griz1

'Base Titanium' with my CC9016-01E:


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## Griz1

Define "base" titanium please.

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## CitizenPromaster

Griz1 said:


> Define "base" titanium please.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


"BASE TITANIUM" signifies that the base material of the watch is titanium, and that what you see at the surface is not the pure titanium but a coating, in the case of your watch "pink gold plating + DLC".


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## CitizenPromaster

I spot the least Attesa looking Attesa ever on Yahoo Japan Auction. Then I see the dial says JAPAN MOV'T. Hmm that's weird for a JDM watch.










Then I see the caseback, it says JAPAN MOV'T again and CASED IN KOREA. WTF?










And look at the clasp. It seems to have no scratch resistance at all.










What kind of weird experiment was this???


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## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> I spot the least Attesa looking Attesa ever on Yahoo Japan Auction. Then I see the dial says JAPAN MOV'T. Hmm that's weird for a JDM watch.
> 
> View attachment 15785389
> 
> 
> Then I see the caseback, it says JAPAN MOV'T again and CASED IN KOREA. WTF?
> 
> View attachment 15785391
> 
> 
> And look at the clasp. It seems to have no scratch resistance at all.
> 
> View attachment 15785392
> 
> 
> What kind of weird experiment was this???


Sadly an early precursor of things to come from Citizen as more and more of even their JDM watches have moved to overseas production. Maybe eventually all of their lower tiers of watches including Promaster and Attesa will be exactly the same worldwide and all made overseas. 😢


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## Griz1

CitizenPromaster said:


> "BASE TITANIUM" signifies that the base material of the watch is titanium, and that what you see at the surface is not the pure titanium but a coating, in the case of your watch "pink gold plating + DLC".


Thanks for the info

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## Griz1

I want one! CITIZEN announces a limited-edition model commemorating its 50th anniversary of titanium technology

Can't quite swing $5k at the moment. But I'm interested.


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## CitizenPromaster

Griz1 said:


> I want one! CITIZEN announces a limited-edition model commemorating its 50th anniversary of titanium technology
> 
> Can't quite swing $5k at the moment. But I'm interested.


I've posted several times in this thread that they sell for much less on Yahoo Japan Auction. However, it depends on your import tax and VAT if it is actually cheaper to buy it from Japan.


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## Griz1

Thanks I'll check into that. Got a link?

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## CitizenPromaster

Griz1 said:


> Thanks I'll check into that. Got a link?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


Search Results for "CC4025-82E" /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan!


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## Griz1

CitizenPromaster said:


> Search Results for "CC4025-82E" /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan!


Yes that's considerably less. Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Remember this TIB-IG 800m professional diver? Look how gold this one is!
> 
> View attachment 15777484
> 
> View attachment 15777487
> 
> 
> It will be interesting to follow this auction.


How rare is it? 56 bids and 141,000 yen rare!

As a reminder, this is what the TIN 1,300m and 800m divers sold for recently:


CitizenPromaster said:


> The 1,300m diver did indeed sell after one bid of 180,000 yen, and this 800m titanium diver just sold for 59,590 yen after starting at 1,000 yen and 46 bids.





CitizenPromaster said:


> Another 1,300m diver that started at 100 yen also ended up selling for 175,000 yen after 66 bids, that is close to EUR 1,500 / USD 1,700.


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## CitizenPromaster

Flashback Friday -> another really rare, expensive, collectible titanium Citizen


CitizenPromaster said:


> Since this thread has been revived, and inspired by above combined pic of the first Attesa and the first titanium Citizen, I want to take this opportunity to link to an article from Sweephand about that first titanium Citizen: This Week's Featured Watch #56 - the X8 Titanium Chronometer
> 
> He has only ever seen one come up for sale, and where it retailed originally (only 2000 pieces) for 45,000 yen, in 2011 it sold at auction for 163,000 yen: Japanese Auctions


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## CitizenPromaster

Big impact on MRK PMV65-2272


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## PetWatch

I wonder how much more resistance these coatings offer, if any, to direct impacts.


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## CitizenPromaster

PetWatch said:


> I wonder how much more resistance these coatings offer, if any, to direct impacts.


Well the Duratect tag that came with these MRK watches had the following to say...








If your Japanese is rusty, it says something like (auto-translated):
_This product is equipped with a scratch-resistant Duratect. DURATECT is a case based on the hardening technology of Citizen. The surface hardness of the case and band is increased by about 4 to 5 times, and excellent wear resistance is achieved. It protects the body from scratches and small scratches. Therefore, the beautiful brilliance of the original material is maintained for a long period of time. If it is rubbed against a hard object or *if it is subjected to a strong impact, it will be damaged*. Please note that it may be attached._

The reason for this is not hard to imagine. A hard enough impact will transfer the energy through the very, very thin coating (TIC/DLC) or through the thin hardened layer (MRK) to the "soft" titanium underneath, which will then deform and compromise the surface coating or surface layer.

Duratect does not turn titanium into adamantium, but it will be somewhat more resistant to direct impacts than pure titanium.


----------



## mercedes_sl1970

Hello. This is a fascinating thread. I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I recently received this Altichron and, just out of curiosity, was wondering if anyone knows when it was manufactured? The Citizen site has it as discontinued.

Thanks, Andrew


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## CitizenPromaster

mercedes_sl1970 said:


> Hello. This is a fascinating thread. I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I recently received this Altichron and, just out of curiosity, was wondering if anyone knows when it was manufactured? The Citizen site has it as discontinued.
> 
> Thanks, Andrew
> View attachment 15794605


Glad you enjoyed this thread. You can look at the serial number on the back of your watch to decode the date of manufacture: Decoding the mordern Citizen Serial number for Date of Manuafacture? | Page 2 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


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## dgaddis

CitizenPromaster said:


> Big impact on MRK PMV65-2272
> 
> View attachment 15791593


That hurts. It's on the underside of the lug, it didn't happen while wearing it, they must have dropped it or something.


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## mercedes_sl1970

CitizenPromaster said:


> Glad you enjoyed this thread. You can look at the serial number on the back of your watch to decode the date of manufacture: Decoding the mordern Citizen Serial number for Date of Manuafacture? | Page 2 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


Thanks for your reply and that link - I'll check it out. Cheers, Andrew


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## SolarPower

Here is a vid on the Citizen Super Ti. 5x scratch resistant vs steel.





The as my AQ6020-53X became my EDW while fixing my computer I had my watch touching and hitting metal frame and parts quite a few times and I must say that Citizen Duratect super Ti is staying by it's promise and there is no scratches anywhere. Gives me even more reasons to wear it everyday.


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## Ziptie

SolarPower said:


> Here is a vid on the Citizen Super Ti. 5x scratch resistant vs steel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The as my AQ6020-53X became my EDW while fixing my computer I had my watch touching and hitting metal frame and parts quite a few times and I must say that Citizen Duratect super Ti is staying by it's promise and there is no scratches anywhere. Gives me even more reasons to wear it everyday.


TBH I'd be terrified to risk getting a watch that nice dinged up. Glad it worked out.


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## CitizenPromaster

The AQ6020-53X is Duratect α so it is 10x harder than stainless steel (2,000 ~ 2,500 Hv).


----------



## lvt

SolarPower said:


> Here is a vid on the Citizen Super Ti. 5x scratch resistant vs steel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The as my AQ6020-53X became my EDW while fixing my computer I had my watch touching and hitting metal frame and parts quite a few times and I must say that Citizen Duratect super Ti is staying by it's promise and there is no scratches anywhere. Gives me even more reasons to wear it everyday.


It seems that you have a 775 motherboard? If so what CPU do you use?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

There are a couple of Promaster Land watches from 2007 that I never paid much attention to, but they have an interesting design nonetheless.











They have a bracelet that looks familiar, but I think is not seen on any other Citizen watch. For more detail, see the end of this post.










And for some reason it comes with the Promaster clasp with diver's extension.










It also has the caseback many of us know and love.










More pictures of a mint PMP56-2941 in this thread: Updated with PICTURES Citizen Promaster PMP56-2941 DLC Dimpled bezel ring!!! | WatchUSeek Watch Forums

Now for this alone I wouldn't have bothered to post about these watches, but I found out today that there was a limited edition for Europe, the AS4065-54L.










And this is the part that made me want to write this post: the caseback doesn't just have a laser engraving "limited edition", it has a unique stamping!










Of course it has caliber E670 where the JDM versions have E610, though if you look carefully the subdials on these watches are twisted 135 degrees counterclockwise compared to the subdials on other E670 and E610 watches, which puts L-TM at the top and CAL at the bottom.

So as promised more detail on the bracelet of these watches.


























And one more time the limited edition caseback


----------



## Ziptie

All I can think of when I see those is how much gunk would accumulate in the holes in the bezel.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> All I can think of when I see those is how much gunk would accumulate in the holes in the bezel.


Haha that was my thought too considering how some used watches arrived from Japan. My own watch has never accumulated any gunk though.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Citizen Japan has renewed their website recently, it now has a webshop (for domestic sales) and all the watches have new photographs, where you see more of the bracelet.
I don't know if the Duratect page was also updated, but I don't recognize it anyway. You can use your browser to translate: シチズン テクノロジーサイト［CITIZEN-腕時計］

I will post some (auto-translated) sections here for prosperity's sake.

*Technology for coating materials
Duratect Titanium Carbite*: It is the oldest technology commercialized in "Duratecto", and features a silver color that makes use of the color tone of titanium. Titanium carbite is a commonly used technology, but Citizen's Duratect titanium car bit has a standard of hardness of 1,000 Hv or more, and only those with guaranteed scratch resistance are commercialized.
*Duratecto Platinum*: This coating technology uses platinum, a precious metal, for duratect titanium carbytes. While using platinum, a soft precious metal with a hardness of about 50 to 110 Hv, we succeeded in increasing the hardness to 1,000 Hv by special processing. In addition to its hardness, it features bright and transparent tones that make your watch shine evenly in the space of indirect lighting and in the dark. It is mainly used for luxury watches and ladies watches.
*Duratect Gold*: "Duratecto" is an elegant yellow gold color using precious metal gold. While using gold, a very soft precious metal with a hardness of about 25 to 70 Hv, the hardness is improved from 1,100 to 1,500 Hv. It features bright glossy tones and shines beautifully in indirect lighting spaces and dark spaces.
*Duratecto Pink*: Duratecto is an adorable pink gold color made from precious metal gold. Like Duratect Gold, it uses gold, a very soft precious metal with a hardness of 25 to 70 Hv, while improving hardness from 1,100 to 1,500 Hv. It is bright and shiny, and shines beautifully in indirect lighting spaces and dark places.
*Duratect Sakura Pink*: It is a pale and gentle sakura color "Duratecto" that pursues the bright and beautiful charm of women's skin. Because it has a property that is hard to change, the beauty at the time of purchase continues even if it is used for a long time. The hardness is as high as 1,100 to 1,500 Hv. Protect your watch from small kiz. The bright, calm and delicate colors are only citizen colors that shine in both private and business. It is adopted for ladies watches such as xC.
*Duratecto α*: Citizen's highest technology. It is the hardest of the Duratecto, achieves the same hardness as sapphire glass at more than twice the duratect titanium carbide (2,000 to 2,500 Hv), and has excellent metal allergy resistance. While ensuring high hardness and metal allergy resistance, it achieves a beautiful shine like a precious metal. Duratecto'α is one of the answers of citizen engineers who continue to pursue beauty, strength and kindness.
*Duratekt DLC*: DLC is a commonly used technology that stands for Diamond-Like Carbon. It is not only resistant to thraki, but also very smooth to the touch. Citizen's Duratect DLC, like general DLC, improves adhesion by sticking thoroughly to intermediate materials. It is hard to come off and has excellent durability. In addition, we pursue beauty as well as hardness. Based on the fearless black color, it achieves an elegant and glossy shine down to the color of the details. Citizen was one of the first in the industry to adopt DLC for watches. The Duratect DLC was exhibited at Baselworld in 1987.

*Technology to harden the material itself
Duratecto MRK*: Unlike normal coatings, Duratect MRK uses technology that hardens the surface of the material itself, so it is possible to protect the watch from scratching. It is often used for sports watches used in harsh environments. Citizen's Duratecto began with the development of duratecto MRK and was patented in 1997. It continues to evolve.
*Duratecto MRK Gold*: Duratecto MRK Gold is a golden yet metal-resistant technology. With the new technology introduced in 2019, duratect MRK has been added ash gold color to realize a more diverse exterior expression than ever before.

*Technology for combining both
Duratecto MRK+DLC*: It is a technology to coat duratect DLC from the surface of the material itself after decorating duratect MRK to harden itself. By overlapping the hard coating on the surface of the hard material, further scratch resistance has been realized. Because it is resistant to hitting, it is good for watches used in hard environments. In addition, the smoothness of the DLC protects the watch from slipping. It is a metal allergy resistant that is gentle on the skin.
*Duratecto MRK+α*: Duratect MRK, which hardens the surface of the material itself, is applied, and a high hardness duratecto α coated. It achieves the highest hardness of Citizen's Duratecto at 2,000 to 2,500 Hv, which is equivalent to sapphire glass. It is resistant to hitting and hitting, and continues to protect the watch even in a hard environment. In addition, because it has excellent metal allergy resistance, you can wear it with confidence. In addition, I was particular about the refined shine with a sense of quality. It is the strongest duratecto that combines beauty and strength.


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## CitizenPromaster

This seems a little inconsistent from Citizen. This tag says the surface is TI, but you would expect this watch to be GMC, and a silicate (glass) coating is not TI, now is it?










Fortunately I was able to find the original product page, but to my surprise only the sister model has the GMC label.










So what label does the PMX56-2553 have? It actually says "titanium carbide", which at that time meant (auto-translated):
Titanium carbide treatment - Ion plaid technology enables high hardness surface coating. Achieves the beauty of mirror finish and hairline finish.

So not GMC, but still inconsistent, as TIC was later labeled as IP on these tags. But mirror finish it was indeed!










The non AIDAWorld Cup PMX dive watches were also titanium carbide in 2000.










The next generation of PMX dive watches, from 2003, was MRK.


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## CitizenPromaster

As I mentioned in the previous post, TIC was later labeled as IP (ion-plating) on the tag, as seen on the tag of this PMD56-2951










TIC watches that also have DLC were labeled as IPIB on the tag. I haven't figured out yet what the IB stands for, as DLC is not ion-plating in Citizen's case, but presumably the B is for black.

This is a PMP56-2942, the side of the case is DLC, the rest is TIC, so the tag says IPIB.










The PMP56-2933 is MRK + DLC, and DLC is the only surface layer, so the tag only says IB.










Edit: someone somewhere on the internet claims IB is short for Ionic Black. This seems plausible, but I think the meaning became more broad over the years, to mean any black coating (or blue coating, as in Ionic Blue).


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> As I mentioned in the previous post, TIC was later labeled as IP (ion-plating) on the tag, as seen on the tag of this PMD56-2951
> 
> View attachment 15806448
> 
> 
> TIC watches that also have DLC were labeled as IPIB on the tag. I haven't figured out yet what the IB stands for, as DLC is not ion-plating in Citizen's case, but presumably the B is for black.
> 
> This is a PMP56-2942, the side of the case is DLC, the rest is TIC, so the tag says IPIB.
> 
> View attachment 15806454
> 
> 
> The PMP56-2933 is MRK + DLC, and DLC is the only surface layer, so the tag only says IB.
> 
> View attachment 15806474


I don't know how many people are enjoying your posts, but this is some impressive research right here. These things are just not easy to find and even more difficult to piece together the facts from the inconsistent and incomplete information that is still out there. I think it's very interesting to try to figure all this stuff out, sometimes 20 years after the fact. Thank you for all of your hard work here.


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## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> I don't know how many people are enjoying your posts, but this is some impressive research right here. These things are just not easy to find and even more difficult to piece together the facts from the inconsistent and incomplete information that is still out there. I think it's very interesting to try to figure all this stuff out, sometimes 20 years after the fact. Thank you for all of your hard work here.


Thank you for your kind words! I'm glad you appreciate the difficulty level. Even finding images of these old style tags is a challenge, because either someone has had to photograph a new watch in the early 2000s while showing the tag (rare occurrence) and the image has to have somehow survived on the internet for 15 years (even rarer occurrence), or someone has to have kept a new old stock watch for 15 years and then posted it for sale more recently with photos that show the tag (also a rare occurrence).

Then there is the matter of everything being in Japanese, but fortunately there are things like google translate and even websites that can translate Japanese characters that are part of an image, that's how I translated the backside of the Duratect tag in post #734. However, that backside is never photographed when someone sells a watch, so I had to buy a watch with box, papers and tags to find out that something was on the backside. Fortunately the technology to do these translations is available "for free". Without it I could never have gathered most of the information in this thread. So the irony is, I can only try to figure all this stuff out 20 years after the fact haha.


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## CitizenPromaster

One sentence that stood out for me on the "new" Duratect page was this:
*Citizen was one of the first in the industry to adopt DLC for watches. The Duratect DLC was exhibited at Baselworld in 1987.*

Regular readers of this thread might know that 1987 was the year that the first Attesa was introduced, probably at Baselworld as well, but I did not know yet that Citizen had a DLC prototype this early, and I'm very curious if they showed the DLC on a piece of metal, or on a complete watch, and what material the substrate was.










"Baselworld in 1987" is probably not a typo, but 1997 would have made more sense to me. The first DLC models that I know of are from the early 2000s. However 1987 was a time of materials innovation, as this Locus of Citizen entry illustrates.










There is no 1987 entry for a DLC watch though. The first DLC watch that is mentioned in Locus of Citizen that I've been able to identify is the ATP53-2703 I mentioned in post #323.










While we are at it, I haven't checked all 434 entries, but the first mention of titanium carbide I've spotted is in this 1998 entry.


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## CitizenPromaster

Back to tags.

The tag for the full DLC ATP53-2703 (and other full DLC Attesa's) says IB.










What would we expect to see on the tag of a MRK watch with a DLC bezel, like the PMD56-2776 or the PMV65-2272? Care to guess?

I haven't found the old style tag for the PMV65-2272, and I don't think the old style tag was still in use when that watch came out in 2010.

I did find a tag for the PMD56-2776, which is MRK (+FPF?) and has a DLC bezel, and what does it say? Have a look ;-)










Notice how the back of the Duratect tag has not been photographed haha.

Anyway, the tag says TINB, without an I. Hmmm, my guess was TINIB.

But here is another MRK watch with a DLC bezel, the PMP56-2912, and what does it say? Have another look ;-)










The tag says TNIB. Citizen, are you messing with us?!

I'm starting to doubt everything. Let me look up the product page for the PMP56-2941 and PMP56-2942 that say IPIB on the tag. Do those even have DLC?
On the product page both have the TIC label and in the specs it says:
Case - Titanium
Surface treatment - White IP plating + colored titanium nitride coating

Wait, did I make it up that they are DLC? I'm pretty sure I saw that somewhere. Maybe in the catalogue?










Yes, there it is. They are DLC after all. That means more marketing department mistakes on the Citizen website.

With all this ambiguity, I really need to see a tag for the PMD56-2952, because I know for a fact that is "White IP Plating + DLC".










Fast forward a long search, and I find this tag where the label is obscured. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.










The other photo from this ad is too low-res to distinguish if it says IPB or IPIB. Sad face.
But there are old websites where the PMD56-2952 is advertized as IPIB, so I'm going with IPIB for now.

Let's summarize what we have so far.

DURATITAN -> TIN
early TIC -> TI
TIC -> IP
TIC + partial DLC -> IPIB
MRK -> TIN
MRK (+FPF?) + partial DLC -> TINB
MRK + partial DLC -> TNIB
MRK + full DLC -> IB
Only full DLC -> IB

I'm starting to regret going down this particular rabbit hole haha


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## CitizenPromaster

So these material "labels" or material "codes" were used only on the tags and on non-Citizen websites, specifically Japanese webshops. Here I have some translated examples:


























As I've said in previous posts "Hard Titanium" is MRK.

@sky21 figured out that JDM watches that are MRK with an additional coating (FPF or DLC) say BASE TITANIUM on the caseback, whilst uncoated MRK watches just say TITANIUM on the caseback. This leads us to believe that the PMD56-2772 and the PMD56-2776 are MRK + FPF, but the PMD56-2971 is MRK only (possibly bead blasted to get the matte finish).

This might explain why the PMD56-2776 is labeled as TINB and the PMD56-2971 is labeled as TNIB, like the PMP56-2912 in post #752.

This JDM Blue Angels Skyhawk also says TNIB on the tag.










But the blue bezel is not DLC or any other Duratect, according to the catalogue. So IB can mean a Blue coating too?










Here is more proof that MRK + full DLC is labeled as IB, as seen on the tag of this PMV65-2242.










And here is another TIC + DLC Attesa that says IPIB on the tag.


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## CitizenPromaster

> So these material "labels" or material "codes" were used only on the tags and on non-Citizen websites, specifically Japanese webshops.


When I say this, I'm talking about the 2000s. Back in the 70s, 80s and 90s, these codes were used in the dealer catalogues to describe the case material, and they were also on the tags. The back of the catalogue had a list of all the codes, that's where I got the explanations that I've posted about the BL, the old TIN, the TIB, etc.










When I talk about or show parts of catalogues from the 2000s, they are consumer catalogues, and these don't mention these material codes.

It might be possible there were also dealer catalogues in the 2000s and that these still had a list of these codes, but that will be hard to verify.

In post #515 I quoted from one of those old dealer catalogues:
TIB : black color titanium side : case made of titanium with black surface treatment
TIBIG : black titanium + hard gold color side : a case made of titanium with a hard gold color treatment partially on the side that was subjected to a black surface treatment

By this logic IB simply means a black surface treatment. There was also SSIBG.
SSIBG : stainless steel + black titanium coated side (with gold-plated bezel) : stainless steel with black titanium coated side (with gold-plated bezel)

There was also just IB, but the translation I get is weird, but it also refers to some kind of titanium coating, and it is used on the non-titanium black Aqualand C023 (caseback says BASE METAL IB).

So it looks to me like IB became a generic code for any black (or blue) coating in the 2000s.


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## CitizenPromaster

> One sentence that stood out for me on the "new" Duratect page was this:
> *Citizen was one of the first in the industry to adopt DLC for watches. The Duratect DLC was exhibited at Baselworld in 1987.*
> 
> "Baselworld in 1987" is probably not a typo, but 1997 would have made more sense to me. The first DLC models that I know of are from the early 2000s.


I did some more digging, and I think I've found the first Citizen watches that got DLC, specifically a DLC bezel. It was an Attesa duo from June 2004.

Everything that follows is auto-translated for your convenience.








Notice it wasn't called Duratect DLC back then, just DLC. The pics are missing, so here are the watches.

ATD53-2603









ATD53-2617









As I've mentioned before, the early pages on DLC were not forthcoming about the hardness, as this page from 2006 shows.










Citizen's marketing department isn't keen on providing technical details anyway, that's why the information from Citizen Coating Service was so valuable, see post #175.

One of the things the current Citizen Coating Service page mentions about DLC is:
"Citizen's Duratect ™ DLC differs from general DLC in that it adheres to intermediate materials thoroughly to improve adhesion."
Another sentence - that I didn't quote in post #175 - says:
"Excellent adhesion is achieved by performing original pre-treatment before DLC film generation."
They do not go into detail about the intermediate materials and the pre-treatment though.

But recently I have found the 1999 page from Citizen Coating Service, and back then they gave away the secret!










The Japanese part at the top says "Citizen's low temperature plasma technology". Here are some more details about the film formation method.










They also share a ton of information about the properties of DLC in general and Citizen's DLC, but unfortunately not all images have been archived.

DLC in general








Citizen's DLC









































Interestingly, at the time this website was made, there were *NO* Citizen watches with DLC, as this page shows.


















We do see an example of a watch with a DLC case, but as far as I can gather, this was not a commercial product, and another 5 years passed before Citizen started offering DLC to consumers, namely the bezels on those two Attesa's at the top of this post. So could that rectangular watch be the one they supposedly showed at Baselworld 1987? Or was it Baselworld 1997 after all? I do not know. But I do know that the DLC they offer today is not 3,000 ~ 4,000 Hv, but that is the hardness we see in the graph from 1999!


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## CitizenPromaster

I'm now even less convinced they showed anything DLC at Baselworld 1987, since that was 8 years before their DLC patent in 1995*. It's possible, but wouldn't it make more sense to showcase the technology internationally 2 years after you patent it? In 1997? And then dedicate a webpage to it a few years later in 1999? With the marketing department mistakes I've unearthed, I'm taking everything they write with a grain of salt.

This DLC prototype is pretty fascinating though. They chose a very classical watch to showcase their very modern technology.










They didn't even bother with DLC'ing all the small parts of a bracelet. And when they started out commercially with just the bezels for those two Attesa's (mid 2004), production was limited to 5,000 units per model per year. So that is 10,000 DLC bezels per year. The DLC watches that followed in later years were also limited production, like the full DLC ATP53-2703 (late 2005) which - presumably because of the bracelet with its many parts - had a limited production of 1,500 units per year. And by the time the full DLC ATP53-2704 came out (new dial design, mid 2006) the production was limited to 5,000 units per year. And as you might know the MRK + full DLC PMP56-2933 (late 2006) was limited to 3,000 units per year because of the double treatment.

My point is that the capacity for DLC'ing watch parts was pretty limited in the early years of DLC and it seems to have increased bit by bit, to the point where the limit is now on how much they can sell, not on how much they can produce.

*One of the images shows a patent number, but I haven't been able to find that patent yet.


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## CitizenPromaster

To come full circle in this exploration of the roots of Citizen's DLC, here's an ATD53-2603 that's currently for sale on Yahoo Japan Auction, so we can see how that very first DLC bezel has fared.


































And here's how the TIC has fared on this same watch.


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## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> How rare is it? 56 bids and 141,000 yen rare!
> 
> As a reminder, this is what the TIN 1,300m and 800m divers sold for recently:


Hi All,

Unfortunately this listing was a total scam, the watch was relisted a week later under a completely new seller with no ratings. Yahoo jp is no different to eBay, except you probably won't get your money back!!


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## CitizenPromaster

Let's continue this discussion here ;-) Buying Citizen watches on Yahoo! Japan Auction (via Buyee and such) | Page 7 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@Lepdiggums has just bought a JP3020-05E, a cool titanium diver that I've seen before, but I've never seen the AMAZING caseback until he showed me these pictures, which I am reposting with his permission.


















WOW, that is the Chuck Norris of casebacks!


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## CitizenPromaster

So I've talked briefly about the Walter Wolf Racing Chronographs in post #609, but there was also a Walter Wolf Racing 300m Professional Diver's, which makes sense because Walter Wolf actually worked as a professional diver in his early career, "installing intake pipes and building bridge foundations".
More info on Walter Wolf and his awesome custom Lamborghinis: Bio: Walter Wolf - Supercar Nostalgia

The color scheme and material is equal to the black 800m diver I discussed in post #515, TIB-IG.


























The person selling the above watch was asking €500. Notice how the Walter Wolf logo is integrated in Citizen's diving helmet logo.
A "junk" example (so not the one above) just sold on Yahoo Japan Auction for 23,786 yen, which is pretty cheap if they can get it running.


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## CitizenPromaster

Interesting marketing haha


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## CitizenPromaster

This PMP56-2912 (MRK + DLC bezel) had a dead battery, but still sold for 25,500 yen. Pretty rare watch!










Meanwhile an old Record Master from 1970 easily fetched 71,500 yen, so right now is definitely the time to stock up on titanium JDM Citizens from the 2000s. Don't wait until they are 50 years old!


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## Lepdiggums

The PMP56-2912, is a good looking piece too 😊👍


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## CitizenPromaster

After selling my '08 AS4050-51E this weekend, I sold the '07 one today. A man came with his 15 year old son. He has a lot of Citizens, including the stainless steel version of the AS and the JDM BY0084-56E (MRK + DLC), and he knows about the better titanium surface treatments on the JDM models. But in this instance he was helping his son to buy his first RC titanium Citizen, and this teenager was very happy with it! I love it when my watches make a new owner smile from ear to ear! We have another Citizen titanium fan for life!

So now I am without Duratect TIC, but it was nice to have completed the Duratect collection, even for a short while!


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## Aero2001

These are my current titanium Citizens, which were preceded by a 44mm chrono with black dial, orange hour markers, and strap. I gave that one to my brother last year, because I strongly prefer the diver with orange dial.


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## CitizenPromaster

I have some polished titanium for you today. This PMD56-2861 has a polished bezel, and they also polished the sides of the case, links AND clasp. I don't think I've seen a Promaster clasp with polished sides before!


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## Dante80

For reference, ATTESA ACT models. Regular Duratect TiC





































The polishing, brushing and overall tone is impressive, let's see how this holds up.


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## CitizenPromaster

Any challengers for lightest full titanium watch with bracelet? (grams)


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## Gilmour

88, Nighthawk Titanium RC.


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## Ziptie

Smaller case is always going to win...


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## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Smaller case is always going to win...


Haha that's the whole point, it's hard to beat an early 90s Attesa on weight, because the case is tiny and the bracelet is flimsy. You will need something like a Skagen to compete, and they don't even qualify, because their mesh bracelet is stainless steel. So you have to bring on the titanium Eco-Drive One (AR5030-59L).








But guess what? 48 grams haha.


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## MarkKenyon

My first Titanium watch and it's a Citizen


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## Ziptie

MarkKenyon said:


> My first Titanium watch and it's a Citizen
> 
> View attachment 15874307


It's all downhill from Citizen. No other titanium measures up.


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## CitizenPromaster

For some reason Buyee gave me a 3,000 yen coupon for Mercari and what do I find there? The first Attesa!!! (see page 15 of this thread) It's coming my way!


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## MarkKenyon

Ziptie said:


> It's all downhill from Citizen. No other titanium measures up.


@Ziptie: I agree, in fact I've started to look for a field watch style Titanium to replace my Promaster Tough as my everyday watch. I really like the Promaster Tough, it's very readable, has good lume, don't need to worry about it getting banged up and it wears really nicely on a Burton strap. But now that I've worn my new Titanium diver for a bit....it's amazing how light and comfortable it is. I switch from the stock strap to a Burton Elite Silicone strap and you almost forget it's even there.

I was reading through some Titanium threads yesterday and came across your posts on the Citizen PMD56-2951/52 and also your review of the CB0170/171/177 family (Citizen CB0170 / CB0171 / CB0177 family). I'm not a huge fan of the 171 family because of the mont-bell on the dial so I'm leaning more towards the PMD56-2951/52 series, probably the 52 since the black dial fits the field watch aesthetic better in my opinion. I see the 170-81E/81L series does not have the mont-bell branding and has kind of an opposite dial aesthetic to the PMD52 series (Numbers at 12/6/9 on the 170 vs. Indices at the 12/6/9 on the PMD52), I like the number font of the PMD56 better and also the inverted triangle at the 12, more field watch like, IMHO.

Are there any other Citizen Titanium watch lines other than the 170 & PMD56 that have a field watch look that I should also be considering?

Promaster Tough (Burton Strap) Titanium Diver (Stock Strap)
















*CB0170-81E CB0170-81L*
















*PMD56-2952 PMD56-2951*


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## CitizenPromaster

@Ziptie posted these the other day, which I really like. He can fill you in on the details.


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## richamor2

My only Citizen and my only titanium. Freshly back from service the bracelet is worn badly but are no longer available from Citizen. The clasp was, thankfully, still available and was replaced. This watch has been used and abused and was a daily work driver for 20 years or so. 
Titanium is lightweight and I think it looks great. But it will scratch and wear like pretty much anything else. Except that sapphire crystal! Not a scratch on it!!


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## aafanatic

@richamor2 That is a thing of beauty Thank you for sharing it with us! That is a watch that has lived, and loved, and served


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## CitizenPromaster

@richamor2 Wow, Citizen actually sold you a clasp! Never mind, inside joke.
Your watch is probably titanium with GMC (Glass Multi-layer Coating), which was only twice as hard as pure titanium, though it holds up pretty good to normal (light) use.


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## Ziptie

They're basic movements in very cool bezel-less Duratect TIC cases. Love the wide & flat style, much better than looking down into a barrel like some divers. I picked these both up before I went on my CB0171 buying spree. I've already sold the black, the champagne sun ray is still for sale cheap.

Good luck finding a CB0170. The very few I could find were way more expensive to import than the 171/177s I've found. If the size works for you, the PMD56 models remain outstanding. That bracelet has a better clasp than the CB series as well.

@MarkKenyon


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## Ziptie

MarkKenyon said:


> Are there any other Citizen Titanium watch lines other than the 170 & PMD56 that have a field watch look that I should also be considering?


To answer your actual question, yes, check out the BN0118 and other Ray Mears / Royal Marine (BN0110) variants. This article references most of them, but I believe there are a few others available.
The Ray Mears Citizen Promaster Tough - The Spring Bar

The Mont-Bell co-branded versions are the BN0111 and BN0121, and possibly other numbers. Citizen has released a few generations of those. I mostly don't notice the Mont Bell branding on my 171s these days.


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## CitizenPromaster

You can also go really old school (at the risk of defects) with the PMX56-2591 and variants.









シチズン プロマスター エコドライブ PMX56-2591 動作品(商品説明確認要) チタン ソーラー 定価50,000円 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online

And I think Ziptie is talking about these.








【美品】シチズン　プロマスター /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online

You can also go the GMT route.








【美品】 CITIZEN シチズン PROMASTER LAND GMT BJ7100-82E 箱有り 2019年発売モデル ソーラー 店舗受取可 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online









シチズン B877-R005600 プロマスター エコドライブ クォーツ ソーラー充電 メンズ 腕時計 CITIZEN 稼動品 ∞ /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online

I haven't checked if the GMT's are titanium though.


----------



## MarkKenyon

CitizenPromaster said:


> You can also go really old school (at the risk of defects) with the PMX56-2591 and variants.
> 
> View attachment 15878090
> 
> シチズン プロマスター エコドライブ PMX56-2591 動作品(商品説明確認要) チタン ソーラー 定価50,000円 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online
> 
> And I think Ziptie is talking about these.
> View attachment 15878099
> 
> 【美品】シチズン　プロマスター /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online
> 
> You can also go the GMT route.
> View attachment 15878100
> 
> 【美品】 CITIZEN シチズン PROMASTER LAND GMT BJ7100-82E 箱有り 2019年発売モデル ソーラー 店舗受取可 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online
> 
> View attachment 15878103
> 
> シチズン B877-R005600 プロマスター エコドライブ クォーツ ソーラー充電 メンズ 腕時計 CITIZEN 稼動品 ∞ /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online
> 
> I haven't checked if the GMT's are titanium though.


Thanks @CitizenPromaster, I did not know about these.


----------



## MarkKenyon

Ziptie said:


> To answer your actual question, yes, check out the BN0118 and other Ray Mears / Royal Marine (BN0110) variants. This article references most of them, but I believe there are a few others available.
> The Ray Mears Citizen Promaster Tough - The Spring Bar
> 
> The Mont-Bell co-branded versions are the BN0111 and BN0121, and possibly other numbers. Citizen has released a few generations of those. I mostly don't notice the Mont Bell branding on my 171s these days.


Thanks @Ziptie, I'll check out the BN0111 & BN0121 series.


----------



## richamor2

Thanks folks. She's been a trooper and, after service, still keeps good time. Not so pretty anymore but I still wear it more often than anything else. I am hoping it was set properly for the perpetual calendar to work properly. That took me several tries to get right.


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> I haven't checked if the GMT's are titanium though.


Some might be titanium, but the vast majority are stainless. I found that out by buying an old one listed as titanium and it showed up in stainless. Not what I hoped.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

You might have seen this full DLC Attesa Jetsetter...










But have you seen this limited edition (700) Gold and DLC Jetsetter? Definitely a fashion statement!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have some polished titanium for you today. This PMD56-2861 has a polished bezel, and they also polished the sides of the case, links AND clasp. I don't think I've seen a Promaster clasp with polished sides before!
> 
> View attachment 15867435
> 
> View attachment 15867437
> 
> View attachment 15867436
> 
> View attachment 15867439


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Today I am very excited to present to you (thanks to Gizmodo and google translate) an interview with the man who designed the first Citizen Attesa in 1987, who talks about Citizens journey with titanium and surface treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jun Komatsu (photo by Hiroki Ohara)
> 
> Click here to read: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=ja&tl=en&u=https://www.gizmodo.jp/2017/05/citizen-attesa-f900-titan.html
> 
> Spoiler: For the 30th anniversary of Attesa in 2017, they gave an Attesa Duratect MRK (+ DLC) for the first time, it was the CC9065-56L, with caliber F900.
> Currently, as far as I can tell, only one Attesa model gets Duratect MRK (+DLC), the CC4004-58E with caliber F950.
> 
> The article also offers a future perspective on Citizen's titanium, but I will let you read that for yourselves.


Now that I've bought the first Attesa, I revisited this article interviewing the designer of that milestone watch.

Then I wondered if some used 30th Anniversary Attesa CC9065-56L's had arrived on the market yet, and indeed they have. It was MSRP 253,000 yen including tax, but now you can get nice looking examples for about half, and a scratched one for even less. Not the price level I'm comfortable at, but an interesting proposition nonetheless!


----------



## Dante80

So, I'm looking to buy a black MRK+DLC watch with a bracelet. Need some guidance!

Was browsing Citizen JP and saw the following models.

*NB6005-05L*









_too bulky._

*BN4055-27E*









_ditto_

*AT8195-85L*









_nice one!_

*JY8025-59E*









_nice!_

*BY0084-56E*









_nice!_

*CC4004-58E*









_Too expensive for me!_

So, here are my questions:
What other new models am I missing? Maybe from other Citizen markets? (I am European)
Anyone have any experience with one of the above watches?
Is there a field style citizen watch with MRK+DLC?
I'm looking to get one either from a European store or Amazon (com/jp, etc) so that I don't pay customs. 
Is there a way to target a used one thus? Chrono24?

Any help would be appreciated, cheers..C:


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The AT8195-85L is the only one you can officially get in Europe. AT8195-85L - Citizen Watch Europe
Getting an MRK + DLC watch is always going to be expensive though. The affordable option is getting a used DLC only Attesa from Yahoo Japan Auction.


----------



## Ziptie

Dante80 said:


> So, I'm looking to buy a black MRK+DLC watch with a bracelet. Need some guidance!
> ...
> 
> Is there a field style citizen watch with MRK+DLC?
> I'm looking to get one either from a European store or Amazon (com/jp, etc) so that I don't pay customs.
> Is there a way to target a used one thus? Chrono24?
> 
> Any help would be appreciated, cheers..C:


You're looking for the CB0177-58E









Citizen CB0170 / CB0171 / CB0177 family


Howdy all, I've become recently enamored of this family of watches, so thought I'd do a bit more research and share my findings here for posterity. Overview This is a family of 42mm titanium aviator style sport watches, all sharing the same case and using the H145 eco-drive solar movement. It...




www.watchuseek.com













Here's one lightly used for ¥79,200. 
https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/l686127237?conversionType=mypage_watch_list

Amazon.j has then as well.

I have the non-bracelet model (on a 3rd party strap) and it's wonderful. I've posted other pics here; search on just CB0177.


----------



## Dante80

Many thanks for the prompt answer. I have seen this one, it is not MRK+DLC, it is DLC only (and the non-black version MRK only). Was specifically looking for MRK+DLC. It really is a lovely watch though, wear it in good health! I might buy the regular MRK mont-bell at some time too.



CitizenPromaster said:


> The AT8195-85L is the only one you can officially get in Europe. AT8195-85L - Citizen Watch Europe
> Getting an MRK + DLC watch is always going to be expensive though. The affordable option is getting a used DLC only Attesa from Yahoo Japan Auction.


Many thanks for the answer! With regards to used MRK+DLC watches, what are some older models I could look for?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I was also about to say that it is DLC only, and for that kind of money you can get a used JY8025-59E, or a used BY0084-56E for much less, but he will still end up paying Customs.
I saw this one the other day posted in the wrong category without proper identifiers in the title. You're not likely to find a more affordable one: CITIZEN◆ソーラー腕時計/デジアナ/チタン/BLK/BLK /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


----------



## Dante80

Thanks for the pointers!
It seems that by adding a points coupon to Amazon.co.jp from my last ATTESA purchace I can get a BY0084-56E brand new for around 672€, all taxes and custom fees included. It would also give me a 67€ point coupon for another purchase down the line (bringing the total cost for the watch* to around 605€ or 80,000yen*).










Would you consider that a good deal? Don't have much insight into these kind of things..


----------



## CitizenPromaster

A good deal? Depends on who you ask. I don't like buying new watches, I wait for a nice used one for a good price, but that's just me.


----------



## coltpeacemaker041

I've just bought a Citizen Eco-Drive Titanium Watch BM7170-53L in Ti with Duratect coating and a Sapphire crystal for $190 US! I think it's a bargain and also looks cool! Here's some pics from the interwebs ...


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I was also about to say that it is DLC only, and for that kind of money you can get a used JY8025-59E, or a used BY0084-56E for much less, but he will still end up paying Customs.
> I saw this one the other day posted in the wrong category without proper identifiers in the title. You're not likely to find a more affordable one: CITIZEN◆ソーラー腕時計/デジアナ/チタン/BLK/BLK /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


Looks like someone bought it. Was it you @Dante80 ?


----------



## Dante80

CitizenPromaster said:


> Looks like someone bought it. Was it you @Dante80 ?


Ha, I'd wish! Sadly I have zero experience with buying in the used market this way. And the fear of customs here in Greece (65+ euro courier import fee + 24% VAT + flat 20 euro fee) is too big for the moment to make a move.
Was thinking that buying from Amazon.co.jp would net me about the same price, more or less.

A question. *How does one go around to finding and buying separately a bracelet for a citizen watch? *

Alternatively to straight buying a DLC+MRK watch, I was thinking of buying this:

*PMV65-2272 *










and giving it the bracelet from this:

* PMV65-2271








*

Like the guy did here.










Another cool combo like this would be to get this:

*AT8194-11X








*

and then put the bracelet from this:

*AT8195-85L*










Am I being too weird?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

You can buy bracelets from Masters in Time (a Dutch website that ships worldwide, @aafanatic is their biggest customer lol), but most are at least 200 euro, so that is not the affordable route.
I have a mint in box PMV65-2271 though, if you can live without DLC.


----------



## Dante80

Sadly it seems that Masters in Time does not have the MRK bracelet for PMV65-2271. The case code _should_ be *T016677*, I get nothing here tho. 
Same for the DLC bracelet for AT8195-85L. The case code is *R013556* but no spare bracelet is available.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Dante80 said:


> Sadly it seems that Masters in Time does not have the MRK bracelet for PMV65-2271. The case code _should_ be *T016677*, I get nothing here tho.
> Same for the DLC bracelet for AT8195-85L. The case code is *R013556* but no spare bracelet is available.


The bracelet for the PMV and the BY is the same: Citizen 59-T00824 Horlogeband - 59-T00824 (mastersintime.nl) It should be MRK, but there is no way to know for sure I'm afraid.


----------



## coltpeacemaker041

Dante80 said:


> Ha, I'd wish! Sadly I have zero experience with buying in the used market this way. And the fear of customs here in Greece (65+ euro courier import fee + 24% VAT + flat 20 euro fee) is too big for the moment to make a move.
> Was thinking that buying from Amazon.co.jp would net me about the same price, more or less.
> 
> A question. *How does one go around to finding and buying separately a bracelet for a citizen watch? *
> 
> Alternatively to straight buying a DLC+MRK watch, I was thinking of buying this:
> 
> *PMV65-2272 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and giving it the bracelet from this:
> 
> * PMV65-2271
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Like the guy did here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another cool combo like this would be to get this:
> 
> *AT8194-11X
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> and then put the bracelet from this:
> 
> *AT8195-85L*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I being too weird?


I think the Citizen PMV65-2271 is one of if not my favorite Citizen watch of all time! Im seriously thinking about getting one off these beasts...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

coltpeacemaker041 said:


> I think the Citizen PMV65-2271 is one of if not my favorite Citizen watch of all time! Im seriously thinking about getting one off these beasts...


Buyer beware, they don't make them like they used to.


----------



## coltpeacemaker041

CitizenPromaster said:


> Buyer beware, they don't make them like they used to.


This is another contender I've considered adding to the arsenal.


----------



## MarkKenyon

Put my Titanium Diver on an orange Barton Elite silicone strap....more of a pumpkin than orange but I like it.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today a post for @Lepdiggums, may he succeed in finding a 800m TIB-IG diver like this!


----------



## TheDude

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> This PMP56-2912 (MRK + DLC bezel) had a dead battery, but still sold for 25,500 yen. Pretty rare watch!
> 
> View attachment 15833104


The PMP56-2912 seems to be in vogue


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## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> The model number for this watch, a Citizen titanium milestone watch, is PMX56-2951. If you want to get rid of it, let me know ;-)





Ziptie said:


> They're all over buyee, not too expensive&#8230;


Not too expensive, but not particularly cheap either!


----------



## Igorek

I'm considering Citizen as7141-60e, any recommendations on the sellers?


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## CitizenPromaster

Igorek said:


> I'm considering Citizen as7141-60e, any recommendations on the sellers?


I'd go for one of the used offerings on Yahoo (first two), or a new one (last three, but obviously not the most expensive one).








Otherwise the usual suspects, like Sakura (new for €582).


----------



## aafanatic

Here's some JDM MRK and MRK + DLC: PMV65-2261, PMV65-2242, and PMV652241


----------



## clockworksynergy

informative thread


----------



## coltpeacemaker041

CitizenPromaster said:


> Speaking of sapphire, I love sapphire as much as I love titanium, and I've been wanting to get a sapphire watch crystal for a long time, just to fiddle with. But I don't have an account at that well-known Chinese website, so I never got around to it. Then my brother was on their website and he wanted to buy something for me that I didn't want. I said: "If you want to buy me something, buy me a sapphire crystal, the thickest and largest there is!" Well, that is the one pictured below, but the biggest one you can actually order is 39x3.0mm. That is about the same size as the sapphire crystal on the Promaster Pilot watches that I and some of you have. The only difference is, if you look carefully, Citizen's sapphire crystal seems to have a tiny beveled edge for extra impact resistance.
> 
> View attachment 15748020
> 
> 
> Here you can just about see the beveled edge on the sapphire crystal. The out of focus part is the top, the dark line is the bevel, the lighter part is the side.
> 
> View attachment 15748085


How did you end up liking those Minging crystals? I'm looking at changing one off my Citizens mineral crystal. I'll get my watch repair guy to fit it so it can be pressure tested.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

coltpeacemaker041 said:


> How did you end up liking those Minging crystals? I'm looking at changing one off my Citizens mineral crystal. I'll get my watch repair guy to fit it so it can be pressure tested.


It's just a wannahave for me, I won't be putting it in a watch. The edge has a few miniscule chips but you can't see them without a loop and even then you need perfect light conditions, so it seems like a great product for the money.


----------



## coltpeacemaker041

CitizenPromaster said:


> It's just a wannahave for me, I won't be putting it in a watch. The edge has a few miniscule chips but you can't see them without a loop and even then you need perfect light conditions, so it seems like a great product for the money.


Ok, thanks. Also how thick are Citizens 200M diver watch crystals in mm? I've got a Citizen Promaster CA0711-80H
and love all 191g of it and want to put a sapphire crystal in it someday.


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## CitizenPromaster

coltpeacemaker041 said:


> Ok, thanks. Also how thick are Citizens 200M diver watch crystals in mm? I've got a Citizen Promaster CA0711-80H
> and love all 191g of it and want to put a sapphire crystal in it someday.


I'm afraid I don't have that knowledge, but maybe someone else will?


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## coltpeacemaker041

Ok ma


CitizenPromaster said:


> I'm afraid I don't have that knowledge, but maybe someone else will?


Ok, mate no problem.


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## CitizenPromaster

You find titanium in unexpected places


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## CitizenPromaster

I've shown the wear on my "beater" TIC AS4050-51E that I was pretty careful with in the 13 years that I've had it. And I've also shown the abused TIC "superbeater" that I've sold. Well thanks to the weird economics of used JDM watches, I was able to buy a 95% PMP56-2901 for the same money that I sold my "beater" for, and that is including Dutch VAT and shipping etc!

I am gobsmacked how many 15 year old watches have survived in mint condition in Japan. Sure the 2901 is MRK, but as the below example shows, that can still result in big scratches.










Now look at the one I just bought!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Speaking of amazingly preserved watches, I was almost more excited about getting this milestone Citizen titanium watch, the 1987 Attesa, the very first Attesa.










The scratches you see are pretty much only visible from this angle, and other than some desk diving scuffs at the bottom of the very special bracelet with butterfly clasp it looks great. That means I somehow landed a better looking example than the designer of this watch is holding in below photo, which I assume is his personal watch!










My example is one or two links short of fitting on my wrist, but good luck finding those! I'm going to put it in a nice see-through case and cherish it as the museum piece it is.

As for the design, I think it is very likely that the designer was inspired by the IWC Porsche Design Ocean 2000 from 1982, but he simplified the design even more as it didn't have to be a dive watch.










The original Ocean 2000 has unique "pinless" bracelet links, of which there were two variants, then they switched to visible pins. More info here.









The Attesa also has unique links, but I don't know how to describe them. The inside of the bracelet looks like this. The bracelet is not very flexible because of this construction.










It would be nice to have a 1982 Ocean 2000 next to my 1987 Attesa, but those are way outside of my budget, even if they are undervalued ;-)


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## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> Speaking of amazingly preserved watches, I was almost more excited about getting this milestone Citizen titanium watch, the 1987 Attesa, the very first Attesa.
> 
> View attachment 15914948
> 
> 
> The scratches you see are pretty much only visible from this angle, and other than some desk diving scuffs at the bottom of the very special bracelet with butterfly clasp it looks great. That means I somehow landed a better looking example than the designer of this watch is holding in below photo, which I assume is his personal watch!
> 
> View attachment 15914955
> 
> 
> My example is one or two links short of fitting on my wrist, but good luck finding those! I'm going to put it in a nice see-through case and cherish it as the museum piece it is.
> 
> As for the design, I think it is very likely that the designer was inspired by the IWC Porsche Design Ocean 2000 from 1982, but he simplified the design even more as it didn't have to be a dive watch.
> 
> View attachment 15914960
> 
> 
> Here is an article about the Ocean 2000. "I definitely think the Porsche Design by IWC Ocean 2000 is undervalued, but don't expect that to last forever!" 6 reasons it might be a sleeper classic | Time and Tide Watches
> The original Ocean 2000 has unique pinless bracelet links, of which there were two variants, then they switched to pins.
> View attachment 15914982
> 
> 
> The Attesa also has unique links, I don't how to describe them. The inside of the bracelet looks like this. The bracelet is not very flexible because of this construction.
> 
> View attachment 15914971
> 
> 
> It would be nice to have a 1982 Ocean 2000 next to my 1987 Attesa, but those are way outside of my budget, even if they are undervalued ;-)


Totally Awesome CitizenPromaster!!!! What a Fantastic find. Congratulations ??


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## CitizenPromaster

Lepdiggums said:


> Totally Awesome CitizenPromaster!!!! What a Fantastic find. Congratulations 😊👍


Thanks Lepdiggums.
I'm thinking of putting all my non-boxed watches in these:

















I think the holes in the top will allow some dust in, but those make it possible to stack them if you have very many. The seller says they are closed displays though, so maybe the second set of holes doesn't go all the way through.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Not too expensive, but not particularly cheap either!
> 
> View attachment 15899023


This guy thinks his PMX56-2591 is much more valuabe and that "this type rarely comes to the market". It won't sell haha.


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## CitizenPromaster

aafanatic said:


> Here's some JDM MRK and MRK + DLC: PMV65-2261, PMV65-2242, and PMV652241


A lovely and legendary trio! Too bad you are selling/have sold them ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Never seen this before. Looks like a monocoque, and I think it's from 1999. GMT, B876.










































Edit: it is indeed a monocoque watch from 1999.


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## CitizenPromaster

@Ziptie linked to the sister model for sale on Yahoo in another thread. In these pics it's clear to see how the dial is different.


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## Lepdiggums

Wow CitizenPromaster, that's one heck of a chunk of titanium 🤩🤩👍 I really like the signed crown too.


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## CitizenPromaster

Lepdiggums said:


> Wow CitizenPromaster, that's one heck of a chunk of titanium 🤩🤩👍 I really like the signed crown too.


Yeah it's a chunky watch allright!


----------



## Dante80

After seeing that lovely monocoque, I had to post this. I don't know if this goes here, but someone might be interested.

A friend last month went on vacation to the Island of Rhodes, and a watch selling shop had the following in stock.








































































































































The store owner was apparently changing the battery/capacitor and doing a water resistance test before selling you the item.
Some very cool NOS articles there. Aggressive pricing too!


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## CitizenPromaster

Hey there it is!
I guess the tourists aren't buying a lot of watches, that is quite some New Old Stock. My parents went to Rhodes once, but they prefer ****** where they are going this week.
By the way, for our non-European friends, these are Greek islands.


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## dgaddis

Nothing new to add here other than I still love this piece.


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## Lepdiggums

Dante80 said:


> After seeing that lovely monocoque, I had to post this. I don't know if this goes here, but someone might be interested.
> 
> A friend last month went on vacation to the Island of Rhodes, and a watch selling shop had the following in stock.
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> The store owner was apparently changing the battery/capacitor and doing a water resistance test before selling you the item.
> Some very cool NOS articles there. Aggressive pricing too!


Very cool, Thank-you for sharing 😊👍


----------



## Ziptie

Here's a full MRK with bracelet, like new for $450. I'd buy it if I didn't already own one!









Citizen Promaster Mont-bell Cb0171-97e 082030051 14811 for sale online | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Citizen Promaster Mont-bell Cb0171-97e 082030051 14811 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Here's a full MRK with bracelet, like new for $450. I'd buy it if I didn't already own one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Citizen Promaster Mont-bell Cb0171-97e 082030051 14811 for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Citizen Promaster Mont-bell Cb0171-97e 082030051 14811 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


Owning one doesn't stop me from buying another ;-)


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## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> Owning one doesn't stop me from buying another ;-)


If I didn't already have that model, plus the DLC and TIC versions on straps, plus another I'm trying to sell, I'd think about it on a strap.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> If I didn't already have that model, plus the DLC and TIC versions on straps, plus another I'm trying to sell, I'd think about it on a strap.


What about the watch in your profile pic, do you still have that?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I think I might have posted this watch somewhere in this thread or another, but not this one-sided TIB version.


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> What about the watch in your profile pic, do you still have that?


Oh yes, cheap stainless/mineral crystal BM6831. I love it. Great classic typography, great interesting handset, great onion crown. And 1/10 of the price of a big crown pilot.


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## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Oh yes, cheap stainless/mineral crystal BM6831. I love it. Great classic typography, great interesting handset, great onion crown. And 1/10 of the price of a big crown pilot.


Seems to be related to this one: 美品　シチズン　オルタナ　エコドライブ電波　クラシックミリタリースタイル　コインエッジベゼルパイロット　VO10-6851B　メンズ腕時計 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan!


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> Seems to be related to this one: 美品　シチズン　オルタナ　エコドライブ電波　クラシックミリタリースタイル　コインエッジベゼルパイロット　VO10-6851B　メンズ腕時計 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan!


Oh fascinating! That's an H11A movement, so radio controlled, similar to the PMD56 line. Mines got no fancy features. Totally the same aesthetic though. And I've seen other VO series pilot variants. (And my watch in these colors.)

VO10-6832T
VO10-6833T









And check out this co-branding 
VO10-6751H 
VO10-6752H









I would totally wear a Citizen Platypus.


----------



## Dante80

Didn't know this one was coming out in MRK!














Citizen Watch Italy | Collezione Radiocontrollato







citizen.it


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## CitizenPromaster

Dante80 said:


> Didn't know this one was coming out in MRK!
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Citizen Watch Italy | Collezione Radiocontrollato
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> citizen.it


That's news for me too. Looks like Citizen Italy was able to get a "custom" model again. A hidden Citizen catalogue: the Italian market | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


----------



## Dante80

CitizenPromaster said:


> That's news for me too. Looks like Citizen Italy was able to get a "custom" model again. A hidden Citizen catalogue: the Italian market | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


And there is a used one for sale for 280€ from Italy.
Which looks to be on top condition too! And 4 years of warranty remaining. 





Citizen Promaster Sky | Chrono24.com


Citizen Promaster Sky on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.




www.chrono24.com


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I think I've seen this one before, but I don't know the model number. Anyway an applied Promaster logo is pretty rare. 38,000 yen on Yahoo Japan Auction.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I have this same exact model, an early Attesa - titanium of course, nice and grey - but it's terribly out of fashion, you might have to pay someone to get rid of it!


----------



## lawspara87

hello all, very comprehensive thread. i have a couple of old wrecker entry level citizen watches but im looking to buy new. there is a wealth of information on this thread but im still struggling to comprehend which watch offers the most durable/scratch resistant finish. Can someone advise if any of the EU models come with the best titanium finish and if so which models?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

lawspara87 said:


> hello all, very comprehensive thread. i have a couple of old wrecker entry level citizen watches but im looking to buy new. there is a wealth of information on this thread but im still struggling to comprehend which watch offers the most durable/scratch resistant finish. Can someone advise if any of the EU models come with the best titanium finish and if so which models?


Hi lawspara87 and welcome to the forum. Yes, the info in this thread can be overwhelming haha. If we disregard Duratect Alpha, the best treatments are DLC (black), MRK+DLC (black) and MRK (silver). These days a few models are available in Europe with this surface treatment, but most are still TIC. I'm not sure who is the importer for Sweden, but on the website of Citizen EU you can filter by case material and surface treatment: Men - Citizen Watch Europe


----------



## Igorek

What's the difference between AT8181 series and AT9090 series?


----------



## Ziptie

Igorek said:


> AT8181


Different movement, so different functions.


----------



## Dante80

Igorek said:


> What's the difference between AT8181 series and AT9090 series?


The first use the H800 movement, the latter the H820. I think that the 820 has additional dual time and alarm functions.


----------



## dgaddis

A few weeks on eBay with no one interested in it...at least not enough to buy it off me, so, I'm keeping it. Not a problem really!


----------



## Tjcdas

Incoming titanium milled case no bezel.


----------



## Ziptie

Tjcdas said:


> Incoming titanium milled case no bezel.
> 
> View attachment 15955911


I love that case.


----------



## aafanatic

As promised, Titanium triads


----------



## CitizenPromaster

aafanatic said:


> As promised, Titanium triads


Great stuff my friend!


----------



## Tjcdas




----------



## ZM-73

Citizen Promaster NY0054-04L


----------



## journeyforce

I could not help myself. i bought the Refurb CC9025-85E that Official Watch Deals had.

Sadly I bought it too late in the day so it will probably will not be shipped out until next Tues. But such as life.

I have had a few of the stainless steel versions of this watch and have gotten rid of them because while they start out fine on the wrist, they become boat anchors that drag the wrist down as the day wears on.

In a way, it seems that Citizen made the watch too heavy for what it was.

So as i liked the style of the watch, I decided to pick up the Titanium version in the hope that it will be much lighter and thus easy to wear all day.

Here is a render. Pics when it arrives


----------



## Tiribos

aafanatic said:


> As promised, Titanium triads


Super Sexy !! 👍


----------



## aafanatic

@Tiribos ahh! Thank you

@journeyforce 185 grams ain't no joke I ended up getting the CC9025-85E and I love it


----------



## Leopardfan

CitizenPromaster said:


> This forum is littered with threads on the subject, but they usually are not very enlightening. Attempts have been made at an overview, but that hasn't stopped the question from reappearing. Hopefully this thread will change all that!
> 
> In this first post I will list interesting previous discussions and notable quotes. Later on I will adress some common misconceptions (like scratch resistance does not equal scratch proof) and discuss the past and present of Citizen titanium.
> 
> From: Duratec/t? Bright/z? Diashield/DLC?
> 
> From: Seiko Dia-Shield vs. Citizen Dura-Tec
> 
> Also interesting, though full of erroneous views: Differences between Citizen PMV65-2271 and JY8020-52E
> 
> Some user experience: Truth and Myth About DLC, Duratech and High Tech Diamond...
> 
> All details about the different Citizen surface treatments can be found in later posts.


From what I have read on the internet about DLC ("Diamond-Like Carbon), it is not a surface-hardening process. It is a black layer that is bonded onto the stainless steel or titanium surface of a watch casing and/or watch bracelet utilizing any of a variety of different methods such as plasma gas infusion, CVD ("chemical vapor deposition"), etc. Duratect is Citizen's proprietary surface-hardening process. Of course, Seiko and Casio utilize similar surface-hardening processes that have different trademarked names than Duratect.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Leopardfan said:


> From what I have read on the internet about DLC ("Diamond-Like Carbon), it is not a surface-hardening process. It is a black layer that is bonded onto the stainless steel or titanium surface of a watch casing and/or watch bracelet utilizing any of a variety of different methods such as plasma gas infusion, CVD ("chemical vapor deposition"), etc. Duratect is Citizen's proprietary surface-hardening process. Of course, Seiko and Casio utilize similar surface-hardening processes that have different trademarked names than Duratect.


Good thing you cleared that up for us ;-)
The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC | Page 23 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums 
The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC | Page 38 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I thought I'd share this with you titanium and DLC lovers. I found a Canadian company that makes titanium and titanium + DLC rings. I'm thinking of getting one to go with my titanium + DLC Promaster.
Black Titanium Rings - Black Rings For Men & Women, Weddings | Titanium Rings


----------



## blubblub33

Does anyone know which grade of titanium Citizen uses for their high end models? i'd like to know the hardness of their uncoated Ti , Seiko states their High-Intensity Titanium is from approx. 250 to 350 vickers. i am asking that because i've read on the Damasko website about the eggshell effect, to avoid that effect they heat treat their stainless steel cases to harden their watches case here is the link : https://www.damaskowatchtechnology.com/technology-watchcase.php
I know that Citizen chronomaster models with the duratec Ptic/Platinum coating will get scratched at some point , and i think having a harder material under the coating would be a huge bonus.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

blubblub33 said:


> Does anyone know which grade of titanium Citizen uses for their high end models? i'd like to know the hardness of their uncoated Ti , Seiko states their High-Intensity Titanium is from approx. 250 to 350 vickers. i am asking that because i've read on the Damasko website about the eggshell effect, to avoid that effect they heat treat their stainless steel cases to harden their watches case here is the link : https://www.damaskowatchtechnology.com/technology-watchcase.php
> I know that Citizen chronomaster models with the duratec Ptic/Platinum coating will get scratched at some point , and i think having a harder material under the coating would be a huge bonus.


See post #547 for info on the grade.
Duratect MRK (gas hardening) is not used on The Citizen/Chronomaster watches.


----------



## blubblub33

Thanks for the infos @CitizenPromaster! i finally know what ti grade they use now , i'm not gonna lie i'm quite disappointed that they're not using grade 5 ti, but i expected it to be honest. They obviously have to use a Ti grade with the best formability so they can shape and press their cases and mass produce them. i do wish they would do grade 5 ti for their high end The Citizen models though. Someone i know was able to scratch his Citizen 0100 case coated with duratect alpha with his bergeon tool, while Damasko pretty much imply that their heat treated and hard coated watches case can withstand damage dealt by strap change tools.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Scratching Duratect Alpha with a watch tool????? I’m pretty sure Duratect Alpha (2,000 ~ 2,500 Hv) is more scratch resistant than grade 5 titanium though (Ti-6Al-4V, 396 Hv)...

Personally I'm more disappointed that after 100 years of wrist watches they still can't give us easy to size bracelets! Sure, the micro-adjust on some Citizens is great, but you still need to do the rough sizing by adding/removing pin and collar links, which is also asking for scratches with these (much too hard) tools. Maybe they should make "softer" tools?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Of course hardness is a pretty complicated subject. My Russian friend has something to say about it:


----------



## ElGhurafiy

My Citizen C300-Pme65-2091 Titanium. I have a mixed feelings after I swapped the titanium bracelet with the original strap (both in brand new condition). I might put it back again.


----------



## blubblub33

CitizenPromaster said:


> Scratching Duratect Alpha with a watch tool????? I'm pretty sure Duratect Alpha (2,000 ~ 2,500 Hv) is more scratch resistant than grade 5 titanium though (Ti-6Al-4V, 396 Hv)...
> 
> Personally I'm more disappointed that after 100 years of wrist watches they still can't give us easy to size bracelets! Sure, the micro-adjust on some Citizens is great, but you still need to do the rough sizing by adding/removing pin and collar links, which is also asking for scratches with these (much too hard) tools. Maybe they should make "softer" tools?


Bracelet setting the only time where his 0100 got scratched, but this is a interesting quote from the damasko website :

'' Various tests have proved that this kind of surface treatment is not suitable for Damasko watches because it only hardens the top layer of the metal. This leads to the so-called egg-shell effect. An ordinary pair of tweezers are able to dent and scratch the "hardened" surface (which are normally made from spring steel) because the material underneath the hard layer was not able to withstand the pressure. ''

I don't think having a strong hard coated layer is enough, the base material should be hard and strong too. i wish more brands heat treat their stainless watches case. I have a HSS Seiko 4883 from the 70's and the scratch resistance is great.
Citizen is still my favourite watch brand for their record breaking accuracy but they should use high grade Ti for their high-end The Citizen models like Grand Seiko does with their high-intensity titanium, grade 5 ti is not only more scratch resistant but also stronger in general. i would not mind paying more for Chronomaster models if they used grade 5 ti and paired it with their duratect alpha coating.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

In post #58 I quoted someone saying:
_One argument against surface treatment is the eggshell effect. The surface may resist scratches, but risks deformation due to the underlying soft metal. This is a valid concern but it should be highlighted an untreated watch will deform to a greater degree._
HorologicOptic also mentioned it in post #205:
_Of note is what could be an "eggshell" effect (highly technical term, I assure you) near the bottom left of the crown's edge. It looks like a crack, but upon close inspection was not deep at all._

Below abstract says something similar as Damasko:
_The CVD application of wear-resistant coatings to steel, with subsequent heat treatment, sometimes causes the so-called "eggshell" or "thin ice" effect. Beneath the CVD coating, in the substrate, a thin soft layer is formed. This layer cannot support the coating under load and leads to failure of the coating/substrate compound. The effect is usually explained by a substrate decarburization at the interface. This was verified by investigation of different CVD TiN- and TiCN-coated steels. Substrate decarburization depends on both the CVD parameters and the substrate. The depth of the soft layer does not correspond to the characteristics of the C profiles, but rather to the Ti profiles in the substrate. Titanium diffuses from the coating into the substrate, and this diffusion also depends on both the CVD parameters and the substrate. The soft layer can be explained by the Fe-C-Ti equilibrium diagram and the negative influence of titanium on the hardenability of steels._

I have not studied this enough to speak confidently on the matter, but I will say that Damasko and the abstract are talking about coatings on steel specifically, and you can't just assume that the same things are true for coatings on titanium, since there will be no decarburization in a pure titanium substrate. However, generally speaking every coating will ultimately only be as strong as the substrate, and I've discussed many times how even Duratect MRK can "fail" when the softer titanium underneath the gas hardened layer "collapses".

I don't think the scratch on the Duratect Alpha has anything to do with the above though. What I tried to point out with the video by the Russian is that any soft material can damage a harder material, if a sharp enough point and enough force is used. A watch tool is pretty hard material to begin with, it has pretty sharp edges/points, you apply quite a lot of force on a springbar, so if you hit the titanium coating, a scratch will be easily made (large force on a very small area, like a chisel or pickaxe).


----------



## blubblub33

Great ressources! i didn't know there was so much chemical differences during the surface treatment of stainless steel and titanium.
So do you think Citizen titanium treated with duratect is not affected by the eggshell effect? i definitely think duratect alpha is very good, most of duratect alpha owners seems to be very satisfied with the performance, i know that non treated Grand Seiko Ti models are known to catch scratches very easily even though they uses grade 5 ti, their ti still seems to be very soft.

Do you think there would be a significant performance difference if Citizen uses a high grade 5 Ti for their base material instead of grade 1? Grade 5 Ti isn't only harder but its also a much stronger material overall. i know that 3 years ago Casio stated they used grade 5 and grade 2 Ti for their high end MR-G cases but in this video they say they are using a special high grade Ti alloy (DAT55G) that is 3x harder than pure Ti, they will do a further DLC coating on some of their Ti MR-G models.
Here his the video where they mention it : 



It seems that both Grand Seiko and G-Shock gives a heavy focus on using high-grade Ti while Citizen uses a more common Ti grade for all their waches, even for their high end 'The Citizen' models, and quite honestly i am a little bit unhappy about that.
All things said, my next purchase will be a Citizen (they are my favourite brand) i'm waiting for them to release more 0100 models and i do believe that while Citizen does not use the best high-grade Ti alloy they still have the best hard coating on the market with their Duratect alpha, i have high confidence in their Duratect alpha coating but performance wise i think their lower grade duratect used on the rest of their 'The Citizen' models aren't as scratch resistant.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

In post #447 I speculated as follows:


CitizenPromaster said:


> Here's some wild speculation for y'all: did Casio just buy all their surface treatment technology from Citizen or use Citizen's expired patents? You'd think Casio would be proud of the white TiC, DLC and deep hardening if they came up with it themselves, yet on their technology website there is nothing about surface treatments! Technology - Watch Technologies | CASIO


In the video you posted they admit to buying technology from third parties, and the DAT55G seems to come from Daido Steel, which announced it as early as 2006 (see presentation).
Microsoft PowerPoint - Ogawa.PPT (ymaws.com)
I found an explanation for the Cobarion they also mention in the video:
_COBARION®bezel
COBARION® is a cobalt chrome alloy that boasts a hardness more than twice that of stainless steel and that is said to have the brilliant sparkle of platinum. The COBARION® bezel features a crescent-shaped cut and a flawless mirror finish, an expression of the point of a sharpened sword.
Note: COBARION® is a registered trademark of the Iwate Industry Promotion Centre, and is manufactured exclusively by Eiwa Corporation._

Again, they purchase their technology from a third party. Citizen develops all their surface treatments in-house as I've explained in this thread. Citizen has also used titanium alloys in the past, as I've discussed in post #617, #618 and #619, and these were called "fine titanium" (1.5 times harder than pure titanum, 280 ~ 320 Hv) and "hard fine titanium" (2.5 times harder than pure titanium, 400 ~ 450 Hv), but for some reason they abandoned the use of titanium alloys for Exceed models in favor of coatings like Duratect PTIC. Notice though that this "hard fine titanium" is almost as hard as DAT55G (2.5 times versus 3 times), and harder than grade 5 titanium (400 ~ 450 Hv versus 396 Hv).

Would Casio and Seiko use grade 1 titanium + Duratect Alpha if they were allowed to, or are the titanium alloys they use for high-end models truly superior? Good luck answering that question! Certainly having a harder substrate underneath the coating offers some benefits, hence why Citizen sometimes combines MRK (gas hardening) with DLC (and once they combined MRK with Alpha).

Casio also combines hardening with a coating, as I mentioned in post #446.


CitizenPromaster said:


> One thing Citizen doesn't do, is combine MRK with TIC, though theoretically they do combine MRK with Alpha, but so far only on the CC9000-51A afaik.
> 
> Casio also has 'white' titanium carbide coatings, but they claim they do combine it with some type of hardening (don't mind the marketing blabber in below text):
> 
> MRGB1000D-1A
> "Introducing an elegantly beautiful new titanium model for the mid-size series of the G-SHOCK MR-G flagship lineup. Everything possible has been done to reflect the metal crafting aesthetics of armor, swords, and other Japanese arms, which have been symbols of power in Japan since time immemorial.
> 
> *The case and band are made of titanium that has been deep surface hardened and then given a titanium carbide finish, which creates a beautiful lustrous silver color. *The bezel is then given a diamond-like carbon (DLC) coating that gives it a bold and intrepid black color. All of this is offset by the vivid red accents on the face that evoke images of red braided armor that adds an imposing majesty to the metal and creates a sense of power."
> 
> The black titanium MR-G's are listed as "DLC treatment + deep curing process". Another name Casio has for it is "deep layer hardening".
> 
> Don't ask me to start a The Definitive Casio Titanium Thread though...


"So do you think Citizen titanium treated with duratect is not affected by the eggshell effect?"
I don't know how broadly this term is used, but all surface treatments are more sensitive to hard impacts than to rubbing, and usually the harder something is, the more brittle it is. Perhaps the "soft" grade 1 titanium even helps to cushion blows to the hard coatings? Imagine hitting a piece of glass laying on tiles versus hitting a piece of glass laying on a pillow. With soft blows the pillow will deform and absorb the energy and prevent the glass from breaking. With hard (and pointy) blows nothing can safe the glass, and with hard (and pointy) blows nothing can safe a coating.

"Do you think there would be a significant performance difference if Citizen uses a high grade 5 Ti for their base material instead of grade 1?"
I don't think the performance difference would be very significant, at least not in consumer products. Either way, Citizen seems to have determined the performance difference offered by titanium alloys is not worth the extra cost and/or effort. I think the performance difference offered by grade 5 titanium mostly exists in the minds of some watch owners, much like is the case with screw down crowns (isn't that right @Ziptie ?).


----------



## blubblub33

@CitizenPromaster wow, again thanks for the detailed explanation and for the data provided! very educational content, its the first time i ever heard about 'fine titanium' and 'hard fine titanium' those seemed to be amazing. i've been searching about Citizen Ti grade for a while but i never found any detailed infos on Ti grades used by Citizen before.
I do not mind the fact that Casio is buying patents/licence/technology from other companies, i think industrial watchmaking has always been some sort of ecosystem like that from the very beginning, in house is cool but that's about it.
About the eggshell effect, to be frank with you i don't know much about it either, i was quite curious about the performance difference between Duratec and Damasko hardening based on the article Damasko posted on their website, the fact that they have a 800 vickers (that's already quite high!) heat treated steel case then coated with a 1200 vickers hard coating is pretty cool, but i'm a high accuracy quartz collector only and i find Damasko designs quite horrendous (its my personal opinion of course).
Duratect is still such a mystery to me, i still can't help but feel biased toward grade 1 Ti, i know i'm repeating myself but the fact that higher grade Ti are not only harder but also stronger, adds a nice feeling of security and comfyness.

When i look at how Grand Seiko grade 5 Ti gets scratched super easily, while most high end Citizen cases with Duratect Alpha seems to remain pristine despite daily abuse i think Citizen is holding their promises, maybe Citizen has their own trick and technology is just hard to grasp sometime. if i ever get a Citizen 0100 this year or next year i will film myself scratching the side of the case with a bergeon tool and will post a video here for the sake of science and experimentation. have you ever considered buying a hardness measurement machine by the way?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

You are welcome, I am always glad if someone is genuinely interested in the subject of this thread. A lot of the information in this thread cannot be found anywhere else because I've translated it to English from old Japanese webpages that are only accessible through the Internet Archive. Consider it my small contribution to mankind ;-)

"have you ever considered buying a hardness measurement machine by the way?"
I am hardcore about hardness, but not *that* hardcore ;-)


----------



## blubblub33

CitizenPromaster said:


> You are welcome, I am always glad if someone is genuinely interested in the subject of this thread. A lot of the information in this thread cannot be found anywhere else because I've translated it to English from old Japanese webpages that are only accessible through the Internet Archive. Consider it my small contribution to mankind ;-)
> 
> "have you ever considered buying a hardness measurement machine by the way?"
> I am hardcore about hardness, but not *that* hardcore ;-)


Damn that's some commitment haha, nice digging skills. no wonder i never found any of these stuff by myself 🤣. Aniway i'm glad you did such an archive work very cool stuff 
And yes i'm a huge Citizen nerd as well (my favourite brand, absolute fanboy), they are the only one who are still spending lots of ressources and money into research and development instead of selling empty marketing narratives, their 0100 caliber release saved my interest for watch collecting.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

blubblub33 said:


> Damn that's some commitment haha, nice digging skills. no wonder i never found any of these stuff by myself 🤣. Aniway i'm glad you did such an archive work very cool stuff
> And yes i'm a huge Citizen nerd as well (my favourite brand, absolute fanboy), they are the only one who are still spending lots of ressources and money into research and development instead of selling empty marketing narratives, their 0100 caliber release saved my interest for watch collecting.


Maybe you can find a way to buy this one: ザシチズン　AQ6021-51E キャリバーNo.0100 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online 
Do you think they will release 0100 models that cost less than this used example? Personally I don't see it happening.


----------



## blubblub33

CitizenPromaster said:


> Maybe you can find a way to buy this one: ザシチズン　AQ6021-51E キャリバーNo.0100 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online
> Do you think they will release 0100 models that cost less than this used example? Personally I don't see it happening.


To be frank i am absolutely in love with the 0100 caliber but i hate the current 0100 case design. i am willing to pay 4000-5000 euro max for a Citizen 0100 (easily done through discounts from my Citizen dealer in Paris)
Ultimately my wildest dream would be for Citizen to use a 37mm, 0200 chronomaster case design, coated with duratect alpha and casing a 0100 caliber, i'd be happy if they throw in a day date complication too. that setup would make me very happy. I know its very specific but in short what i want is a phantasmagoric Citizen watch that doesn't exist yet, as i am not satisfied with their current 0100 models case shape but that's another debate.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

blubblub33 said:


> To be frank i am absolutely in love with the 0100 caliber but i hate the current 0100 case design. i am willing to pay 4000-5000 euro max for a Citizen 0100 (easily done through discounts from my Citizen dealer in Paris)
> Ultimately my wildest dream would be for Citizen to use a 37mm, 0200 chronomaster case design, coated with duratect alpha and casing a 0100 caliber. it would make me very happy. I know its very specific but in short what i want is a phantasmagoric Citizen watch that doesn't exist yet, as i am not satisfied with their current 0100 models case shape but that's another debate.


Who knows what the future holds


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> I think the performance difference offered by grade 5 titanium mostly exists in the minds of some watch owners, much like is the case with screw down crowns (isn't that right @Ziptie ?).


Indeed, I think it's another example of people fixating on what is perceived as "best", regardless of practical applications.

I am entirely willing to believe that for unrelated applications, such as bicycle frames, the titanium grades make a measurable impact in flexibility, strength, etc., when driven by hundreds of kilograms of force across tens of centimeters.

For impact measuring fractions of millimeters, it's hard to say, but I trust the Citizen engineers more than anybody on this forum.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> I trust the Citizen engineers more than anybody on this forum.


That hurts my feelings 😢


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> That hurts my feelings ?


I almost wrote "more than nearly anyone&#8230;" but figured all the wrong people would assume I meant them. ?

You know I have great respect and gratitude for your contributions, right?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> I almost wrote "more than nearly anyone&#8230;" but figured all the wrong people would assume I meant them. ?
> 
> You know I have great respect and gratitude for your contributions, right?


Hahaha I'm just kidding. I hope everyone trusts the Citizen engineers more than any WUS user (unless the WUS user is a Citizen engineer).

Of course many of the decisions Citizen makes might be primarily cost (or accountant) based rather than performance (or engineer) based, but I trust that Citizen abandoned titanium alloys for sensibe reasons, and I get the feeling that some watch brands use grade 5 titanium just to be "exclusive", or to justify a high price. It might indeed be true that grade 5 is not suitable for mass production, but I sincerely believe we are not missing out on much with the current offerings from Citizen.


----------



## FerrisAus

Although I've already posted in WRUW, I guess it belongs here too!


----------



## NocturnalWatch

I've these two...
















Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

What's worth more? A slightly scratched up titanium + DLC F900 GPS watch, or a decent condition light aluminum alloy + hardermite mechanical 8110 flyback chronograph watch?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

On Yahoo right now, titanium Promaster from 1994, they say it is the PML56-1103. Never seen this before. 19 cm bracelet, so should fit most people, and they say it works. Starting bid is 24,000 yen, they say price when new was 45,000 yen.


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> On Yahoo right now, titanium Promaster from 1994, they say it is the PML56-1103. Never seen this before. 19 cm bracelet, so should fit most people, and they say it works. Starting bid is 24,000 yen, they say price when new was 45,000 yen.
> 
> View attachment 16001811
> 
> View attachment 16001812


Super cool🤗😄👍


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I didn't see this titanium case/stainless steel bezel Walter Wolf watch when it was on Yahoo as it was hidden away in the "Men's Wristwatches > Analog (Quartz)" category. Haven't seen it before, as it's not in this catalogue. Brochure: Citizen and Walter Wolf Racing - Plus9Time It sold for only 6,250 yen.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I finally found a somewhat readable photo of a mid-2000s catalogue, this one is from 2006. It confirms that the term "TIN" as used on the tags of Duratect MRK watches was also used in the dealer catalogues (see post #699 and onwards for more on this subject).


----------



## 1386paul

CitizenPromaster said:


> I finally found a somewhat readable photo of a mid-2000s catalogue, this one is from 2006. It confirms that the term "TIN" as used on the tags of Duratect MRK watches was also used in the dealer catalogues (see post #699 and onwards for more on this subject).
> 
> View attachment 16007769


Thanks for the effort you have put into this thread, there's always something added I had no idea about.


----------



## MarkKenyon

NocturnalWatch said:


> I've these two...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk


That blue automatic titanium diver is fire!


----------



## MarkKenyon




----------



## NocturnalWatch

MarkKenyon said:


> View attachment 16016562


Had two of those 









Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkKenyon

NocturnalWatch said:


> Had two of those
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk


My favorite everyday watch, light, comfortable on the Barton strap, good lume, hard to beat.


----------



## Robbie_roy

I'm with both of you, such a nice watch ... I know what I'm wearing tomorrow now : ) Mine came on the bracelet, but I'm tempted to contact Citizen to get the curved endlink rubber strap.

I see this watch as a fusion between a 62MAS and Aquaracer, even if the Citizen team may not have been directly inspired by those.


----------



## Alansmithee

Thoughts on the CC4016-75LE ?









Citizen Introduces a Different Type of Space Watch - Worn & Wound


In what has turned out to be a big week for space, with one of the world’s richest men launching himself just past the bounds of the Kármán line, and the 52nd anniversary of Apollo 11’s successful moon landing, Citizen has introduced a pair of new watches that highlight their own next-gen space...




wornandwound.com


----------



## Ziptie

Alansmithee said:


> Thoughts on the CC4016-75LE ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Citizen Introduces a Different Type of Space Watch - Worn & Wound
> 
> 
> In what has turned out to be a big week for space, with one of the world’s richest men launching himself just past the bounds of the Kármán line, and the 52nd anniversary of Apollo 11’s successful moon landing, Citizen has introduced a pair of new watches that highlight their own next-gen space...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wornandwound.com


Can't go wrong with the F950 movement, it's solid.
The aesthetics are a personal choice.


----------



## Alansmithee

This might or might not be the right thread - I have has this citizen for several years and except where I scraped hard against a concrete wall has no marks on it at all - pretty impressive for a watch that cost me £100!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

There's always one person crazy enough to pay up for the 1982 1,300m! (And I would have to pay 21% VAT when importing this used watch!!!!!)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I never noticed until today, but the JDM Citizen Altimeter was also titanium. It was part of the Sporte range, as the Promaster brand had not yet been adopted in Japan.








Here's an example that has survived all the mountain climbs ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

@Lepdiggums saw a 1300m on eBay and I noticed some strange things on the caseback.








The movement number and case number are different from all the other ones, it is made in 1987, not in 1982, and it says:
Z.F. MANAUS
BRC 149

After some research my conclusion is that there was an (assembly) factory in Brazil, I also found these models.



















































So there you have it, Citizens from Brazil?


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> @Lepdiggums saw a 1300m on eBay and I noticed some strange things on the caseback.
> View attachment 16027106
> 
> The movement number and case number are different from all the other ones, it is made in 1987, not in 1982, and it says:
> Z.F. MANAUS
> BRC 149
> 
> After some research my conclusion is that there was an (assembly) factory in Brazil, I also found these models.
> View attachment 16027111
> 
> View attachment 16027112
> 
> 
> View attachment 16027120
> 
> View attachment 16027121
> 
> 
> View attachment 16027113
> 
> View attachment 16027114
> 
> 
> So there you have it, Citizens from Brazil?


Fantastic work CitizenPromaster!!!! you really are a researching legend😊👍


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> I never noticed until today, but the JDM Citizen Altimeter was also titanium. It was part of the Sporte range, as the Promaster brand had not yet been adopted in Japan.
> View attachment 16025380
> 
> Here's an example that has survived all the mountain climbs ;-)
> View attachment 16025385
> 
> View attachment 16025388
> 
> View attachment 16025390


Just beautiful!!!!


----------



## Dante80

For reference, Citizen Duratect DLC after scrapping/hitting hard a ceramic tile wall.










Just below 8 o clock. Things could have been a lot worse.


----------



## Lepdiggums

Dante80 said:


> For reference, Citizen Duratect DLC after scrapping/hitting hard a ceramic tile wall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just below 8 o clock. Things could have been a lot worse.


That totally sucks Dante80!!!! Beautiful watch by the way too🤩


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...


































Yours for 7,700 yen on Yahoo Japan Auction.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The chronograph actually sold for 12,199 yen, so this oldie still has some admirers!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...


























1996 JDM Eco-Drive diver


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

Hi guys, sorry if posting in the wrong thread. I'm having some issues with my Citizen Attesa CB1120-50E (titanium, duratec). I like the watch a lot but i can't seem to find a good bracelet sizing position. My wrist expands during the day and with 1 link removed it's a bit too tight, with 1 link added the watch rotates around my wrist when the wrist is not swollen. The bracelt has a non-standard lug width, so putting it on a custom band is not an option. The links are comfy, the weight is perfect, very light. But the clasp has only 2! micro adjustment positions. When i add 1 link and put the microadjust on tightest, the bracelet is too loose, when i remove the link and put it on widest position, it's fine in the morning but during the day as my wrist expands it's a bit too tight and leave imprints on my skin. I was thinking getting a custom titanium clasp. Unfortunately i haven't found anything Citizen branded. Found this one: AUGUSTA Watch Clasp For Watch Straps Made Of Titanium and ordered, but i doubt it will be the same color and finish as the rest of my bracelt. If you have any pointers where can i source a Citizen titanium clasp with microadjustment options i'd be very grateful!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...


















2001 JDM Eco-Drive Diver


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...


















































I'd say this Sporte diver predates the MIM titanium era, as it looks very much forged.

I actually think it is from 1983, but I'm not exactly sure when the Sporte brand started. I don't see any watches like this in the 1993 catalogue, but unfortunately there are no 80s catalogues online to verify this is from 1983.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Compared to for example this 1996 titanum diver that looks very MIM indeed (all these organic, rounded shapes).


















And this next Sporte diver, from 1993, is stainless steel, but it doesn't get more MIM than this, so I'm using it as an example.


































And here is some more MIM titanium.

























And @Lepdiggums spotted its MIM brother on eBay.
























Need lume?









And judging by this titanium Elgin, others figured out the technology too.

















Personally I'm not a fan of the design style that MIM technology brought forth, but it certainly makes watches easy to date to the 90s and it allowed the designers a lot of creative freedom.

FYI, MIM is Metal Injection Molding, which allows for more intricate shapes than traditional forging. However, if we are to believe Citizen's marketing movies, today's titanium cases are forged again.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The market has determined the value of a (used) CC4025-82E...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...


































Titanium bullhead, because 90s haha

Also made with panda dial


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I discovered today that the Citizen Astrodea watches from 2005/2006 are also titanium.








There's a NOS example on Yahoo for 69,000 yen, but the Astrodea has a silver oxide battery (SR626SW) and if it has leaked, you are f....


----------



## Maddog1970

Not so vintage current GPS diver


----------



## CitizenPromaster

In this extra edition of Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...


































































A very chunky pre-Eco-Drive titanium diver.


----------



## journeyforce

CitizenPromaster said:


> In this extra edition of Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...
> 
> View attachment 16053107
> 
> View attachment 16053109
> 
> View attachment 16053111
> 
> View attachment 16053112
> 
> View attachment 16053113
> 
> View attachment 16053114
> 
> View attachment 16053115
> 
> View attachment 16053121
> 
> 
> A very chunky pre-Eco-Drive titanium diver.


A nice watch kneecapped by having a book of words on the dial


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I think this one is pretty rare. Maybe someone is looking for it and is willing to pay for it?








★ CITIZEN ★ PMT56-2731 ★ E766-T001203 ★ ECO-Drive ★ DURATECT ★ 中古 ★ 美品 ★ 送料無料 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


----------



## CitizenPromaster

This might also interest a die-hard fan with disposable income.








希少【シチズン プロマスター ランド ソーラー電波 PMD56-2864 ブルー文字盤】 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


----------



## Triku

CitizenPromaster said:


> This might also interest a die-hard fan with disposable income.
> View attachment 16057596
> 
> 希少【シチズン プロマスター ランド ソーラー電波 PMD56-2864 ブルー文字盤】 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


Another one but with different casebak. Maybe is newer? Olders ones with Screwed caseback?



https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/x795727039


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Triku said:


> Another one but with different casebak. Maybe is newer? Olders ones with Screwed caseback?
> 
> 
> 
> https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/x795727039


The screw on caseback is H414-T006744 (movement-case id), which is the men's version (42mm) and the other is H330-T007465, the ladies version (33mm).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I've mentioned the full DLC ATP53-2703 (late 2005, 1,500 units per year) and the full DLC ATP53-2704 (new dial design, mid 2006, 5,000 units per year) in this thread, and there was an ATP53-2704 for sale on Yahoo that probably needs a new battery (sold as junk), but for 10,000 yen I couldn't resist.

































It seems to be in pretty good shape, and it might just fit my wrist comfortably.

For reference, below is the ATP53-2703. I don't even know which dial design I prefer.


----------



## SolarPower




----------



## CitizenPromaster

I haven't seen many of these for sale in the past months (PMD56-2973).









The previous owner of this one must have had some really toxic sweat!!!! How the heck did this happen???


----------



## CitizenPromaster

As a watch collector you need the obligatory birth year watch, right? Well it needs to tick more boxes than "made in 1984" for me. Of course I want a titanium watch, which is not impossible, but on top of that I want it to be a Citizen, and of course a Promaster, or at least having the Promaster logo. And that is problematic, because the first Promasters came out in 1989, and whilst some watches, like the original Aqualand Depth Meter, do have the arrow logo on the dial, those all came out in 1985 or later.

I have recently discovered that the JDM Sporte watches, with the half empty arrow logo, came out as early as 1983 (like the one below).








But I don't want the half empty logo on my birth year watch, I want the "full" arrow logo!

A few days ago the Yahoo Auction Japan Gods answered my prayers, and they presented me with a (January) 1984, titanium Citizen with a "full" arrow logo on the dial. In the below picture it is hidden behind the hands, but it is actually a really big logo!!!








Now that I know that this model exists, I can only find a few other examples being mentioned on the internet, and a Japanese watchmaker has worked on two examples. Below is his photograph of the dial, and if you look closely you can see that the arrow logo actually has lume on it!!!








Here is the side profile, and as you might have noticed above, the crown is on the left.
















It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't expensive either, since nobody bid on it but me, so soon I will have my birth year titanium "Promaster"!!!!
(And I plan on buying every other one that comes up for sale haha)


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> As a watch collector you need the obligatory birth year watch, right? Well it needs to tick more boxes than "made in 1984" for me. Of course I want a titanium watch, which is not impossible, but on top of that I want it to be a Citizen, and of course a Promaster, or at least having the Promaster logo. And that is problematic, because the first Promasters came out in 1989, and whilst some watches, like the original Aqualand Depth Meter, do have the arrow logo on the dial, those all came out in 1985 or later.
> 
> I have recently discovered that the JDM Sporte watches, with the half empty arrow logo, came out as early as 1983 (like the one below).
> View attachment 16061376
> 
> But I don't want the half empty logo on my birth year watch, I want the "full" arrow logo!
> 
> A few days ago the Yahoo Auction Japan Gods answered my prayers, and they presented me with a (January) 1984, titanium Citizen with a "full" arrow logo on the dial. In the below picture it is hidden behind the hands, but it is actually a really big logo!!!
> View attachment 16061382
> 
> Now that I know that this model exists, I can only find a few other examples being mentioned on the internet, and a Japanese watchmaker has worked on two examples. Below is his photograph of the dial, and if you look closely you can see that the arrow logo actually has lume on it!!!
> View attachment 16061384
> 
> Here is the side profile, and as you might have noticed above, the crown is on the left.
> View attachment 16061386
> 
> View attachment 16061387
> 
> It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't expensive either, since nobody bid on it but me, so soon I will have my birth year titanium "Promaster"!!!!
> (And I plan on buying every other one that comes up for sale haha)


Totally awesome!!!! Congratulations on a fantastic find🤩😍🥰👍


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Boo again! Just for the record, Citizen has used titanium alloys in the past. The above info (yellow) from the late 90s and this "new" info below from 2008 tells us those alloys were only used on Exceed models.
> 
> View attachment 15732511


To my surprise I found a titanium Promaster diver for sale that says "TITANIUM ALLOY" on the back.

















I found it in the 1997 catalogue, and indeed it is described as TIA in stead of TI (with the GMC label).








This is very weird, because there are MANY titanium Promaster divers in the 1997 catalogue, and all of them are TI with GMC, so I have no clue why Citizen made an exception for this pair. They are not in the 1996 catalogue, so they are not "remnants" or anything like that, and no other Promaster divers in 1996 were TIA, they were all TI (with GMC). The blue symbol says "Fine Titanium", the titanium alloy that I discussed in the quoted post above.


----------



## Robotaz

That probably means Grade 5 Ti.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Robotaz said:


> That probably means Grade 5 Ti.


No, it does not. I wrote in post #876:
Citizen develops all their surface treatments in-house as I've explained in this thread. Citizen has also used titanium alloys in the past, as I've discussed in post #617, #618 and #619, and these were called "fine titanium" (1.5 times harder than pure titanum, 280 ~ 320 Hv) and "hard fine titanium" (2.5 times harder than pure titanium, 400 ~ 450 Hv), but for some reason they abandoned the use of titanium alloys for Exceed models in favor of coatings like Duratect PTIC. Notice though that this "hard fine titanium" is almost as hard as DAT55G (2.5 times versus 3 times), and harder than grade 5 titanium (400 ~ 450 Hv versus 396 Hv).


----------



## Robotaz

lol, you’re always so mad about the silliest stuff. That or just rude. Not sure which.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Robotaz said:


> lol, you're always so mad about the silliest stuff. That or just rude. Not sure which.


Thanks, you have a nice day too!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Some NOS light alloy + black hardermite coating today, Citizen's lightweight material of choice before titanium and DLC.


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> Some NOS light alloy + black hardermite coating today, Citizen's lightweight material of choice before titanium and DLC.
> 
> View attachment 16087871
> 
> View attachment 16087872
> 
> View attachment 16087873
> 
> View attachment 16087876
> 
> View attachment 16087878


Where the heck do they find these nos watches after 40 years give or take. I guess that nos unicorn someone is chasing might still be out there🤗


----------



## CitizenPromaster

PMV56-2762 (E811-T003010) - never seen this before, fancy bracelet...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

JDM Sporte diver in TIN from 1985. Sold for 14,850 yen a while ago.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> On page 1 of this thread in post #4 I wrote:
> _Studying the above post carefully should answer pretty much all questions about Citizen's titanium treatments, except for: *can you refinish Duratect and/or Super Titanium?*
> 
> Well the jury is still out on this one. Basic Ti that is brushed for sure cleans up nicely and easily with the right material like Scotchbrite. There are a few examples on WUS, here is one: Scratch removal from Tudor Pelagos and another: Let's talk titanium I'm not sure about blasted/satin though.
> 
> The below bracelet of a Citizen Chronomaster is supposed to be Duratect, but on stainess steel and it will both scratch AND refinish!
> 
> My solution has been buying a second original titanium bracelet for my Pilot Chrono (expensive solution btw) so I can fully refresh down the road if I want to, but mostly to even be able to replace a broken bracelet after decades!_
> 
> Looking back after 5 years, having learned many details about the Duratect surface treatments and their methods of application (all of which is chronicled in this very long thread), I personally think that Duratect TIC *cannot* be restored by brushing, as it would - like Ziptie suggests - just remove more of the titanium carbide coating. That is assuming that the hardness of 1000~1200 Hv is not problematic. According to one jeweler Duratect MRK (which is not a coating but has some "meat" to it because of a gas hardened layer), at 1300~1500 Hv, is too hard and starts sparking when you try to restore it. So I don't see how Duratect titanium (TIC or MRK) could be meaningfully restored.
> 
> I don't recommend buying a spare bracelet though. When I did that, I hadn't really factored in that the case and bezel would also get "scars", so I'm never putting that brand new bracelet on, because it won't match the actual watch.
> 
> As for stainless steel with Duratect, I have not found much information on it other than post #263, which shows information from 1999 that states stainless steel is impregnated with carbon giving a 20~25 micron layer hardened to 800 Hv. So the above example of a "refinished" stainless steel Duratect bracelet is still somewhat of a mystery to me. Either 800 Hv is not too hard for rebrushing and repolishing and 20~25 micron is enough "meat" to work with, or they took off the top 20~25 micron layer and refinished it like you would any stainless steel, or they just replaced the bracelet with a new one? I guess we'll never know. What we do know is they surely "did not re-apply the Duratech coating".


@Spuz Zard has worked on his Duratect TIC watch with a scotch brite pad, you can see the result here: Post your 10+ year old Eco-Drive and Solar-Tech watches | Page 4 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
This proofs that you can "refinish" Duratect TIC, in the sense that you can get rid of scuffs and scrapes and give it a uniform brushed finish.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Someone bought this NOS light alloy with black hardermite V2 for 16,000 yen and relisted it with a starting bid of 6,000 yen, apparently there is a problem with the date change. Still a beautiful watch from July 1970!


----------



## Tiribos

CitizenPromaster said:


> PMV56-2762 (E811-T003010) - never seen this before, fancy bracelet...
> 
> View attachment 16089757
> 
> View attachment 16089759
> 
> View attachment 16089760
> 
> View attachment 16089761


Nice watch, it has almost the same strap as the Navihak C650-Q02144, same style, titanium too.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

While Citizen has moved away from aluminium in favor of titanium, at some point Citizen did make a few Eco-Drive watches - called Trans Solar - for the brand Trans Continents, and they made the case out of aluminium. No hardermite coating though!


----------



## dgaddis

I like the idea of an aluminum watch. It would be SO light. Yeah, it'll pick up scratches, but hey, it's just patina!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

After a long wait for the right example (condition, number of bracelet links), I finally have my third grail, the MRK + FPF titanium with DLC bezel PMD56-2776.








Like my PMP56-2933 (below) and my PMP56-2901 (I don't have it with me right now) it has no numerals, which I like.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

So here we have it, my MRK trilogy is complete. I don't have MRK + α, but there is only one watch that has that combination, and that is the CC9000-51A.

From left to right, MRK + DLC <<>> MRK <<>> MRK + FPF.










I'm rubbing the clasp with my shirt several times per day to keep it looking this nice, and that is where the FPF comes in. FPF stands for Finger Print Free, and this name suggests that this "glassy coating" is not so prone to fatty fingerprints. Well, I put it to the test, and here are the results of putting a nice greasy pinky fingerprint on the clasp (fresh forehead grease).










The lighting is difficult to get right for all three watches at once, but I think it's clear to see that CSI could get you convicted based on the very defined, very visible fingerprint on the MRK + DLC and on the MRK. Especially at certain light angles, oily marks really stand out on these two finishes (and on TIC too). However, the only things visible on the MRK + FPF are some unrelated specks of dust. So unlike actual glass this "glassy coating FPF" is truly Finger Print Free!

The matte grey finish might not be to everyone's taste, but it is probably what more people expect titanium to look like than any other Duratect finish. Citizen only used FPF on three watches, and Citizen only marketed it as FPF on one of those watches, and this coating has been discontinued since 2008.


----------



## bugi

Marine Super Titanium NY0076-10EE


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Citizen is very "creative" with their anniversaries. According to the company history on the Japanese website (translated below), the European office in West-Germany was opened in 1965, and I have an early export model from 1967 to proof it.








But the 50th anniversary - as celebrated by the watch in the above post - was in 2019, 50 years after the foundation of CITIZEN EUROPE UHRENHANDELSGESELLSCHAFT mbH, the predecessor to CITIZEN WATCH EUROPE GmbH.

"50 years after its creation and foundation by the then Mayor of Tokyo Shimpei Goto, Citizen took the plunge to Europe and chose the city of Hamburg in Germany as the location for its European headquarters. "We came to Germany to be a good partner for you." These programmatic words, addressed to the watch trade, were the starting signal on October 8, 1969, when CITIZEN President Eiichi Yamada sent the newly founded CITIZEN EUROPE UHRENHANDELSGESELLSCHAFT mbH into the race for the top position in the German watch market. At that time, the number of skeptics about our prospects of success was still high.
Today we look back with pride on 50 years of success in Europe - and worldwide. The continuous development and expansion of our European business activities have made CITIZEN WATCH EUROPE GmbH in Hamburg a strong location in Europe.
The fact that today we can celebrate the anniversary "50 years of CITIZEN in Europe" is proof of the correctness of the CITIZEN concept, which is characterized by four central strengths of the company.
Innovative watch technologies that are continuously developed in line with our motto "Better Starts Now". The processing of particularly demanding materials, such as titanium, which becomes Super TitaniumTM thanks to our proprietary Duratect surface hardening technology. A strong awareness of the environment with its natural resources, which gave us the idea to create and use our Eco-Drive light drive, as well as fair and cooperative relationships with our trading partners.
The concentration on these particular strengths in connection with the great commitment of our local partners are the basis for the overall European success of CITIZEN - today as well as tomorrow. We would like to take our 50th anniversary as an opportunity to thank you and our trading partners."

Even more creative was the 100th anniversary in 2018, linked to the foundation of the Shokosha Watch Research Institute, rather than the foundation of Citizen Watch Co. in 1930.









But back in 1990 they had a 60th Anniversary watch! That's right, they took 1930 as the start date back then!

























And Citizen really loves their anniversaries, even for titanium, as has been discussed in this thread. The website is still up: 50th Anniversary of CITIZEN Titanium Technology- Official Site [CITIZEN] (citizenwatch-global.com)


----------



## Deepsea_dweller

My girlfriends 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bugi

@CitizenPromaster thx for all info


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The owner of this 2003 PMD56-2771 has done some intense desk diving as the Duratect MRK clasp shows.


----------



## MDT IT

My MRK TITANIUM


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> This PMP56-2912 (MRK + DLC bezel) had a dead battery, but still sold for 25,500 yen. Pretty rare watch!
> 
> View attachment 15833104





CitizenPromaster said:


> The PMP56-2912 seems to be in vogue
> View attachment 15899021


The PMP56-2912 is still going strong


----------



## CitizenPromaster

As good as all the Duratect finishes are, it would be cool if Citizen still made some untreated titanium watches, with the same classic titanium look as for example this Victorinox.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Some people claim the above Victorinox I.N.O.X., which is also made in stainless steel as the name suggests, inspired Citizen to make the Promaster Tough. As has been discussed in this thread before, even though different Citizen websites claim different things, there is no doubt that the BN0211-50E (and the BN0211-09X) is stainless steel plus a "super titanium" coating, which is titanium carbide or TIC, and that the black BN0217-02E is stainless steel plus DLC.
I found a nice scratch test comparison video between Citizen's regular stainless steel and the TIC coated stainless steel on the Tough, which clearly proofs that the coating is there and that it works.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Get 'em while they're hot, guys!


----------



## Ziptie

Oh man. I’m in a consolidating phase, but that red CB3016 is tempting. I’ve been watching those since they came out. World radio, DLC bezel goodness…


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Oh man. I’m in a consolidating phase, but that red CB3016 is tempting. I’ve been watching those since they came out. World radio, DLC bezel goodness…


I know, I posted it with you in mind ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Anyone want some colored Duratect titanium in their life?
How about some Duratect MRK Gold with DLC? Search Results for "CC4004-66P" /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online 
Or some Duratect Sakura Pink with DLC? Search Results for "CB0215-77E" /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Turns out there is also a non-RC version of the Promaster Land chronograph
FSOT: Citizen Promaster Titanium Eco Drive Chronograph, AT0660-64E | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


----------



## Aero2001

CitizenPromaster said:


> Turns out there is also a non-RC version of the Promaster Land chronograph
> FSOT: Citizen Promaster Titanium Eco Drive Chronograph, AT0660-64E | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> View attachment 16162253


That's a very cool watch. I had the strap version with orange indices for several years, and while it needed a couple of repairs along the way, it was great. At 44mm without a dive bezel, however, it looked really big on wrist.


----------



## Triku

CitizenPromaster said:


> Get 'em while they're hot, guys!
> 
> View attachment 16160161
> 
> View attachment 16160165


One pmp56-2912, one of this days...
Love that case.


----------



## dgaddis

Ahhhhhhh, I want both of these but can't justify spending the money when I already have the PMD56-2952. Both available now on SakuraWatches. Both have the quick adjust clasp we all know and love from the PMD56-2952.

EDIT to add - anyone know why they changed from PMD56 to AT....? Still the same movement...if they put a movement in that picked up the US radio signal I'd be ordering one RIGHT NOW.

AT6085-50E









AT6080-53L


----------



## CitizenPromaster

dgaddis said:


> Ahhhhhhh, I want both of these but can't justify spending the money when I already have the PMD56-2952. Both available now on SakuraWatches. Both have the quick adjust clasp we all know and love from the PMD56-2952.
> 
> EDIT to add - anyone know why they changed from PMD56 to AT....? Still the same movement...if they put a movement in that picked up the US radio signal I'd be ordering one RIGHT NOW.
> 
> AT6085-50E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AT6080-53L


Those sneaky bastards! They didn't even announce these! They just added them to the website!
AT6080-53L: CITIZEN | シチズンウオッチ オフィシャルサイト 
AT6080-53L: CITIZEN | シチズンウオッチ オフィシャルサイト 

It's very cool that they are continuing the design and even expanding on it. I thought the mont bell watches spelled the end of these, but I'm happy to be wrong!


----------



## Ziptie

dgaddis said:


> Ahhhhhhh, I want both of these but can't justify spending the money when I already have the PMD56-2952. Both available now on SakuraWatches. Both have the quick adjust clasp we all know and love from the PMD56-2952.
> 
> EDIT to add - anyone know why they changed from PMD56 to AT....? Still the same movement...if they put a movement in that picked up the US radio signal I'd be ordering one RIGHT NOW.
> 
> AT6085-50E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AT6080-53L


So good! Weird about the name change. I wonder what else we’ll see appear.


----------



## phubbard

I’m right there with you - I have the pmd56-2952 and love it, but if there was the same design with US reception I’d buy it instantly. And that blue is lovely.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

dgaddis said:


> Ahhhhhhh, I want both of these but can't justify spending the money when I already have the PMD56-2952. Both available now on SakuraWatches. Both have the quick adjust clasp we all know and love from the PMD56-2952.
> 
> EDIT to add - anyone know why they changed from PMD56 to AT....? Still the same movement...if they put a movement in that picked up the US radio signal I'd be ordering one RIGHT NOW.
> 
> AT6085-50E
> AT6080-53L





phubbard said:


> I’m right there with you - I have the pmd56-2952 and love it, but if there was the same design with US reception I’d buy it instantly. And that blue is lovely.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


in the other citizen thread it is speculated that there would be no reception since it's the same calibre:








** NEW and UPCOMING Citizen Watches **


BN0220 is a quite big watch. Dimensions somewhat like 300m Tuna. Grainy finish and slightly sparkly dial with golden hands and indicators work nicely together. What strap are you using? :love:




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## martyloveswatches

My ex 800m titanium (1992. production). The crown had to be replaced with steel one because ti was impossible to get


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Gl3nS1m0n said:


> in the other citizen thread it is speculated that there would be no reception since it's the same calibre:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ** NEW and UPCOMING Citizen Watches **
> 
> 
> BN0220 is a quite big watch. Dimensions somewhat like 300m Tuna. Grainy finish and slightly sparkly dial with golden hands and indicators work nicely together.  What strap are you using? :love:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


No need to speculate, it is a fact that caliber H100 only receives the Japanese signals. However, it also a fact that you can simply sync your watch with one of the (free) apps for your smartphone, so I wouldn't let the lack of world reception be a dealbreaker.


----------



## Triku

Gl3nS1m0n said:


> in the other citizen thread it is speculated that there would be no reception since it's the same calibre:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ** NEW and UPCOMING Citizen Watches **
> 
> 
> BN0220 is a quite big watch. Dimensions somewhat like 300m Tuna. Grainy finish and slightly sparkly dial with golden hands and indicators work nicely together. What strap are you using? :love:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


It is the same calibre, the H100. 

It is confirmed that the caliber is H100, the same as in the PMD56.
I also have a Citizen with caliber H800 and that receives the signal here in Spain but I have configured it with the signal from Japan and I adjust it when I want with an App. 

My PMD56 adjusts with JJYEMULATOR in two minutes from the smartphone. I have synchronized four PMD56s at the same time in two minutes with this system. It's not a problem for me. 
The watch is worth it even with the caliber H100.


----------



## Triku

CitizenPromaster said:


> No need to speculate, it is a fact that caliber H100 only receives the Japanese signals. However, it also a fact that you can simply sync your watch with one of the (free) apps for your smartphone, so I wouldn't let the lack of world reception be a dealbreaker.


You have been faster than Google translator and I together but we have the same opinion: It is worth it even with the H100 caliber.


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

just providing information to those who were wondering about the reception, not saying it's not worth it. have no plans of buying it anyway.


----------



## Triku

Gl3nS1m0n said:


> just providing information to those who were wondering about the reception, not saying it's not worth it. have no plans of buying it anyway.


 It is a great everyday watch.


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

Triku said:


> Is it a great everyday watch.


it is indeed! but i have a beef with the bracelet. as i said in the other thread, i wish the endlinks were executed better, i feel like they don't fit 100% into the lug groove. the sharp pointy endlinks of the nighthawk series is my ideal version of the citizen bracelet.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Gl3nS1m0n said:


> just providing information to those who were wondering about the reception, not saying it's not worth it. have no plans of buying it anyway.


you are allowed to think it is not worth it haha, no one will be offended

anyway, I think Citizen doesn't feel like spending the money and time needed for re-engineering and re-tooling this *day-date* Eco-Drive caliber to world reception, as it is not used much and they have many alternative calibers with world reception that they use in other watches.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Gl3nS1m0n said:


> it is indeed! but i have a beef with the bracelet. as i said in the other thread, i wish the endlinks were executed better, i feel like they don't fit 100% into the lug groove. the sharp pointy endlinks of the nighthawk series is my ideal version of the citizen bracelet.


The endlinks on the Promaster Sky Pilot watches are one of my favorite features, but the fit and finish on the European versions were never near how they were on the JDM watches in the period 2005-2015 (which I found out when I started buying the older JDM watches) and sadly, the fit and finish of the endlinks on the current JDM watches is very much hit and miss, as production has moved to China and Thailand. On some examples the fit and finish of the endlinks is so horrible (to my spoiled eyes) that I won't ever buy any of the current models!


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

CitizenPromaster said:


> The endlinks on the Promaster Sky Pilot watches are one of my favorite features, but the fit and finish on the European versions were never near how they were on the JDM watches in the period 2005-2015 (which I found out when I started buying the older JDM watches) and sadly, the fit and finish of the endlinks on the current JDM watches is very much hit and miss, as production has moved to China and Thailand. On some examples the fit and finish of the endlinks is so horrible (to my spoiled eyes) that I won't ever buy any of the current models!


Interesting, thank you for the insight. i'm eyeing CB0230-81E, the price is a bit steep, but i tried this watch on at the store and was satisfied with the fit and finish. I'm also very tempted to learn how to use buyee and bid on some older JDM watches.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Gl3nS1m0n said:


> Interesting, thank you for the insight. i'm eyeing CB0230-81E, the price is a bit steep, but i tried this watch on at the store and was satisfied with the fit and finish. I'm also very tempted to learn how to use buyee and bid on some older JDM watches.


The older JDM version of the CB0230-81E is the PMD56-2771 (though they are usually listed by the movement and case number that is on the caseback, which is H411-T003745), which is plentiful on Yahoo, but the fit and finish of the endlinks on these caliber H411 watches (with the bezel without knurling) wasn't as good as on the more expensive Pilot watches with the knurled bezel, so you have to really look carefully. For example on this watch the link is fitted correctly on one side, and too low on the other side.

















Nowadays they can be completely too low and/or crooked, like on the below Promaster Sky Pilot Chrono.


















I have hesitated to bring this subject up before, because once you see it you can't unsee it, and I don't want people to start obsessing over it like I do haha. For example, on one of my JDM watches, it is lower on one side just every so slightly, which makes the resultant shadow look like a gap, and it bugs me haha.








There are very few that are perfect on all four corners though, but the fit on the sides is very tight and that generally wasn't done on the JDM H411 Pilot watches nor on any of the EU Pilot watches, as the below examples show.
JDM H411:








EU Sky Pilot Chrono E670








Yeah I know it's only a tiny gap, but you can move the endlink side to side, and there is no possibility of moving the endlink side to side on the more expensive older JDM watches, they were a near perfect fit! On the current JDM watches and EU watches with this endlink design they all have the gap and if you are unlucky they are also misaligned.

Though I have to admit, on the CB0230-81E the gap looks really tiny, when I check some real world examples, like this one:








And the "vertical" alignment isn't too bad either, as on this one (it's a little low on the right side):








The above watch is actually about as good as the more expensive JDM Pilot watches with knurled bezel from 2005-2015, because even back then some would be slightly misaligned like this.

For tips and experiences with Buyee I've created this thread: Buying Citizen watches on Yahoo! Japan Auction (via Buyee and such) | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have hesitated to bring this subject up before, because once you see it you can't unsee it, and I don't want people to start obsessing over it like I do haha. For example, on one of my JDM watches, it is lower on one side just every so slightly, which makes the shadow look like a gap, and it bugs me haha.


no really, thank you for bringing this up. i'm also obsessed about such things and it would drive me crazy if i'd got a watch and the bracelet would be misaligned like that. i had no idea the quality fluctuates like that.


----------



## leets

martyloveswatches said:


> My ex 800m titanium (1992. production). The crown had to be replaced with steel one because ti was impossible to get


A very nice piece indeed...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Gl3nS1m0n said:


> no really, thank you for bringing this up. i'm also obsessed about such things and it would drive me crazy if i'd got a watch and the bracelet would be misaligned like that. i had no idea the quality fluctuates like that.


I imagine the parts (endlinks and case/lugs) are machined to certain tolerances, and the holes for the springbar are drilled with certain tolerances, and if you are on the wrong/far end of all the tolerances combined, then you might end up with a "bad" example, though I think most people wouldn't even notice and even if they did they might not think much of it. We are the crazy ones, though I am not as obsessed with hands hitting markers as some people are! And I don't have dive watches so misaligned bezels and chapter rings are also not an issue 

I'm not being entirely fair on the post-2015 production for the EU either, the gap on this 2019 Made in China watch (that I bought and sold) was a lot better than on my 2007 watch (that I also sold).








As I said before, I think it is mostly the "vertical" alignment of the endlinks you have to watch out for these days, so ordering a watch online without seeing the actual watch might be risky for us OCD folks...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I usually don't discuss other brands in this thread for obvious reasons, but I will make an exception, as the watch from this microbrand reminds me of certain Citizens (a mix of Promaster and Attesa) and on top of that, they claim to use a surface treatment that sounds to me like they get Citizen Coating Service to coat their watches in Duratect TIC (like on the model below) or DLC (optional).

So here is what they say about their coating:
*SUPER SCRATCH-RESISTANCE FOR THE TOUGHEST JOURNEYS.
COATED WITH ULTRAHEX ANTI-SCRATCH TECHNOLOGY FOR PEACE OF MIND.

No more worries about bumps and scratches on your watch when you’re getting busy on your adventures, the Resolute was designed to be your daily beater. We’ve specially coated the titanium casing with our UltraHex™️ Anti-Scratch technology, making it ~8x harder than 316L Stainless Steel, so you can take it anywhere without it interfering with your day.*

In the watch specs they also mention the hardness: *Solid Titanium with ULTRAHex Coating (up to ~1200Hv hardness)*

Now doesn't all that sound familiar? So which brand is this? RZW Watches Europe - Titanium Watches & Accessories – RZE Watches (EU Store)

Here is a nice review of my favorite model of theirs, the Resolute with black dial, though they offer several models with several options for the dial color.





If I wasn't so loyal to Citizen, and if it was solar, I would buy one haha. The prices seem fair too.









As for the UltraHex, they keep harping on about the hexagon, but none of the typical coatings like TiC or TiN have hexagonal crystal structures, so I think it is just marketing blabber, because the below text doesn't actually tell us anything about the nature of the coating, which is why I think they just let a third party like Citizen Coating Service do it.


> HEX: NATURE’S STRONGEST STRUCTURE
> IN THE PURSUIT OF ENGINEERING THE TOUGHEST TITANIUM WATCH, WE TOOK INSPIRATION FROM THE VERY BEST: MOTHER NATURE
> Hexagons are omnipresent in nature; From the biggest planets in the universe all the way down to the tiniest microscopic compounds. Taking cues from nature, many industries have adopted the use of hexagons to create and design products due to its efficiency and strength. We set out to make use of these traits of the hexagon in the attempt to craft the strongest titanium watch ever. Enter, UltraHex™.
> 
> Probably the first naturally-occurring hexagon that comes to mind is the honeycomb. This shape is found in the geometrically perfect homes of bees. You can even find this shape written into their eyes. The reason hexagons appear in honeycombs is because they are the most efficient way to fill a space with the least amount of material. In a hexagonal grid, each line is as short as it can possibly be if a large area is to be filled with the fewest number of hexagons. This means that honeycombs require less wax to construct and in turn, gain lots of strength under compression. It's also one of the only shapes which tessellates, meaning they can be repeated across a surface without leaving gaps or overlapping. Tessellation ensures that there’s neither wasted space nor wasted energy, meaning packing more goodness in the least amount of space.
> 
> So, we took a cue from the busy bees—some of the hardest workers in nature—to design products that will withstand the test of time with all your adventures.
> 
> RZE Endeavour with UltraHex™ Coating
> We love the modern look of titanium watches, but we all know that raw titanium oxidizes easily which makes the surface a scratch magnet. Although some people may like the “beat-up” scratched look of these raw titanium watches, we at RZE prefer our watches extremely hardy, looking just like Day One.
> 
> Hence our answer to this problem—our unique UltraHex™ hard titanium coating. Without sacrificing on the lightweight nature of titanium, we managed to dramatically increase its strength up to 8 times harder than stainless steel. We made this for the adventurers who are constantly conquering new heights who need a sturdy timepiece they don't need to fuss or worry about.
> 
> UltraHex™ is RZE’s proprietary titanium hard coating which is applied to all our watches which greatly increases their strength and durability. The result is a lightweight and comfortable watch that can take all the knocks and bumps you throw at it. So rest assured, you can take them on all your exciting adventures, be it above ground, underground, or below the surface.


----------



## Aero2001

Those RZE watches are really cool. I would like to get a 40-41mm titanium diver, and I have considered an RZE Endeavor with the yellow or light blue dial. I agree they seem to offer good value. I might pick one up eventually, but I have other micros on the radar too (including some steel models) and keep hoping Citizen will bring some sub-42mm Eco-Drive titanium divers to the US, especially with cool dial colors. Not holding my breath on that though!


----------



## Robotaz

Aero2001 said:


> Those RZE watches are really cool. I would like to get a 40-41mm titanium diver, and I have considered an RZE Endeavor with the yellow or light blue dial. I agree they seem to offer good value. I might pick one up eventually, but I have other micros on the radar too (including some steel models) and keep hoping Citizen will bring some sub-42mm Eco-Drive titanium divers to the US, especially with cool dial colors. Not holding my breath on that though!


Good value? I don’t know of better at any price. I’m blown away by my Resolute.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The bracelet on this titanium Navihawk (PMK65-2211) is pretty impressive with the polished taper on the sides of the links.


----------



## qianlong

I would kindly ask you for some suggestions for two watch types in titanium with some sort of hardening treatment.

An automatic of small size with classic size under 40mm. Something similar to nb1050-59.
A small eco drive diver again under 40mm. 

I would like to try out a titanium watch and citizen provides some of the most affordable scratch protection treatments available but i cannot find much for what I'm looking for.


----------



## dgaddis

Zelos is how offering scratch resistant coatings to some of their watches, as is Traska.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

qianlong said:


> I would kindly ask you for some suggestions for two watch types in titanium with some sort of hardening treatment.
> 
> An automatic of small size with classic size under 40mm. Something similar to nb1050-59.
> A small eco drive diver again under 40mm.
> 
> I would like to try out a titanium watch and citizen provides some of the most affordable scratch protection treatments available but i cannot find much for what I'm looking for.


As far as I know you can't sort by size on Citizen websites, and I don't know any sizes off the top of my head, so I'm afraid you will just have to browse for watches you like and then check the size in the specifications. But maybe some other people have ideas for you.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Why did I buy a second "First Attesa" (1987)? Because I could!








The second one, on the right, shows a lot more wear and the heavy use has also made the bracelet more flexible. Both are still happily ticking away though!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> The bracelet on this titanium Navihawk (PMK65-2211) is pretty impressive with the polished taper on the sides of the links.
> View attachment 16174125
> 
> View attachment 16174127
> 
> View attachment 16174128
> 
> View attachment 16174130


Sibling


----------



## phubbard

CitizenPromaster said:


> Why did I buy a second "First Attesa" (1987)? Because I could!
> View attachment 16180120
> 
> The second one, on the right, shows a lot more wear and the heavy use has also made the bracelet more flexible. Both are still happily ticking away though!


Strong IWC/PD vibes on that - amazing watch, might have to try and find one myself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## CitizenPromaster

phubbard said:


> Strong IWC/PD vibes on that - amazing watch, might have to try and find one myself.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


My sentiments exactly, I've compared them in post #823.
I have since learned (as I know nothing about Swiss watches) that there is an Ocean 2000 (42 mm) and an Ocean 500 (34 mm), which is closer in size to the Attesa (32 mm).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Interesting finish on the links of this oldie.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The full DLC version of this trio seems less rare than the other two, which was reflected in the bids on below two examples.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...








































Eco-Drive Kinetic Duo. According to the seller the Eco-Drive part powers the watch and the automatic winding part powers the chronograph. Hmmm...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> View attachment 16184050
> 
> The full DLC version of this trio seems less rare than the other two, which was reflected in the bids on below two examples.
> View attachment 16184038


Actually this watch should have a DLC bezel?









Like this.









The one without the DLC bezel is this one, for sale right now (also rare).









And I learned today that there was also an Attesa with the GMT caliber H117.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

This PMD56-2952 from *2009 *is a TIC abuse survivor. Anyone want to give this OG a home?
























1円～ジャンク品　シチズン　エコドライブ　YFー6 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I've mentioned the full DLC ATP53-2703 (late 2005, 1,500 units per year) and the full DLC ATP53-2704 (new dial design, mid 2006, 5,000 units per year) in this thread, and there was an ATP53-2704 for sale on Yahoo that probably needs a new battery (sold as junk), but for 10,000 yen I couldn't resist.
> 
> View attachment 16057897
> 
> View attachment 16057899
> 
> View attachment 16057900
> 
> View attachment 16057901
> 
> It seems to be in pretty good shape, and it might just fit my wrist comfortably.
> 
> For reference, below is the ATP53-2703. I don't even know which dial design I prefer.
> View attachment 16057903


Two ATP53-2703's popped up for sale, both seemed to be working, but one was a bit more scratched up which I guess resulted in the slightly lower price.









My 10,000 yen "junk" ATP53-2704 came back to life in the sun, but it won't charge enough to be able to do radio reception. I tried to sell it for cheap locally, but I guess nobody feels like replacing the battery, so it will just live in my watch box.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I just noticed that the next, that is THIS post, is post #1,000. I hope people are still enjoying this thread, if not, that's OK, because I still enjoy reading it myself 

There are long posts, there are short posts, there a posts with mostly images, so even if we assume a very conservative average reading/viewing time of 30 seconds per post, you can spend 8+ hours going through this complete thread!

Fortunately there is a search function, and you can search inside a thread, which I recommend to people looking for specific information, that's how I found my previous post about the ATP53's, by clicking on the bottom option (search in this discussion).









So to celebrate 1,000 posts I will give away 5 Duratect watches.

Psych! Dream on haha


----------



## MarkKenyon

Thanks @CitizenPromaster for all your information on these watches.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> As good as all the Duratect finishes are, it would be cool if Citizen still made some untreated titanium watches, with the same classic titanium look as for example this Victorinox.


It turns out Citizen does make a few uncoated titanium watches, though not under the Citizen name of course, but their sub-brand Reguno, which I guess is what Pulsar, or rather Lorus is to Seiko.
These are Eco-Drive Solar-Tech (a name Citizen used before Eco-Drive) and have day-date, but also crystal glass and a folded link bracelet to keep the cost down.








And this is what one looks like in the flesh with some wear.









































Reguno is not sold in Holland as far as I know, only the sub-brand Q&Q is, but the cheapest (and only) titanium Lorus is currently this one at €99.









Obviously this is not solar and it also has no day function.

The Reguno's can be bought for around €100 on Yahoo, so I decided to buy one as a grab and go beater (sometimes I hesitate to put on my Promaster).

Here is the one I just bought for 10,800 yen, it is unused as you can see. I don't usually go for white dials, but the black one wasn't available, and apparently this one is full lume.

















I have a few titanium quartz watches laying around that could qualify for the job of grab and go beater, but I don't feel like replacing the battery every few years, so this seemed like a good idea and I'm curious how it will hold up as a budget Citizen. Including Dutch VAT it will have cost me €100.


----------



## Skeptical

CitizenPromaster said:


> It turns out Citizen does make a few uncoated titanium watches, though not under the Citizen name of course, but their sub-brand Reguno, which I guess is what Pulsar, or rather Lorus is to Seiko.
> These are Eco-Drive Solar-Tech (a name Citizen used before Eco-Drive) and have day-date, but also crystal glass and a folded link bracelet to keep the cost down.
> View attachment 16202560
> 
> And this is what one looks like in the flesh with some wear.
> View attachment 16202565
> 
> View attachment 16202568
> 
> View attachment 16202569
> 
> View attachment 16202571
> 
> View attachment 16202572
> 
> 
> Reguno is not sold in Holland as far as I know, only the sub-brand Q&Q is, but the cheapest (and only) titanium Lorus is currently this one at €99.
> View attachment 16202576
> 
> 
> Obviously this is not solar and it also has no day function.
> 
> The Reguno's can be bought for around €100 on Yahoo, so I decided to buy one as a grab and go beater (sometimes I hesitate to put on my Promaster).
> 
> Here is the one I just bought for 10,800 yen, it is unused as you can see. I don't usually go for white dials, but the black one wasn't available, and apparently this one is full lume.
> View attachment 16202584
> 
> View attachment 16202586
> 
> 
> I have a few titanium quartz watches laying around that could qualify for the job of grab and go beater, but I don't feel like replacing the battery every few years, so this seemed like a good idea and I'm curious how it will hold up as a budget Citizen. Including Dutch VAT it will have cost me €100.


Now that is interesting. Is that a rolled link titanium bracelet? That is not something I’ve seen before. I’m pretty tempted to pick one up myself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Skeptical said:


> Now that is interesting. Is that a rolled link titanium bracelet? That is not something I’ve seen before. I’m pretty tempted to pick one up myself.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha you are not the first to be surprised about this link construction in titanium, but most titanium bracelets by Citizen were made like this until the mid 90s.


DerangedGoose said:


> Wow! Folded titanium links! I would never have thought it would be worth the hassle.


Here are just a few examples:


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Here is the one I just bought for 10,800 yen, it is unused as you can see. I don't usually go for white dials, but the black one wasn't available, and apparently this one is full lume.


As I usually don’t shop for brand new watches, it only dawned on me now that the right place to look for them is not Yahoo Auction but Yahoo Shopping and Rakuten, where you can find all four variants for around 13,900 yen. I got a better deal though, so the full lume dial is fine for me. I do hope the lume is more uniform than on below example (there is a darker patch).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I think that one is from before the Super Titanium/Duratect days, but I actually like the look of 'raw' titanium. I had a similar Lorus titanium watch before I could afford Promaster Sky watches ^_^
> 
> The white dials but the bracelet from the second watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was hoping the Duratect MRK would look more like raw titanium, but it doesn't.


Here is a photo of the actual uncoated titanium Lorus I bought as a teen, as I still have it.









Me and my Lorus had some good times. Who can guess what car I am posing in?









I think I paid €100 back then? I probably had it for 5 years or so before buying my Citizen AS4050-51E in 2008. Of course a watch like this can't hold a candle to the Promasters I'm used to now, same for the Reguno, but the JDM Promasters I collect now had MSRP's at least five times higher (the MRK models), so it's not fair to compare them. And the surcharge for DLC is usually 30,000 yen for a Citizen with titanium case and bracelet, which can buy you two basic titanium watches! Fortunately I buy my DLC Promasters used on Yahoo for a fraction of what they cost new ^_^

So yeah, the Citizen Reguno is actually the first "new" watch I've bought since 2008, and only my second "new" watch as an adult, because I'm a cheapskate!


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> Me and my Lorus had some good times. Who can guess what car I am posing in?


Ferrari 40. :-D

The 959 was a better car.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> Ferrari 40. :-D
> 
> The 959 was a better car.


Guess again ;-)


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Cheapest titanium Citizens with titanium bracelet in Holland (some have dial color options)









Cheapest titanium Lorus, Pulsar and Seiko with titanium bracelet in Holland (some have dial color options)









Other sub €100 titanium alternatives with titanium bracelet (some have dial color options)









I think only Citizen offers coated titanium sub €300, and besides Citizen only Pulsar offers an affordable titanium solar watch. Notice also how only Citizen breaks the 40mm barrier.

There are also some cheap titanium watches on straps, but I'm looking at the competition for my Reguno. Considering the features (solar, day/date) the Reguno is a clear winner.

For €109,90 Olympic does have a watch with date and sapphire crystal, still folded links.



















For €109 Boccia does have a date only watch with solid links, and for €139 a day/date watch with solid links (the sub €100 Boccia's don't have solid links)














































And the Pulsar is a great looking watch at €169, even with folded links.


----------



## MarkKenyon

CitizenPromaster said:


> Here is a photo of the actual uncoated titanium Lorus I bought as a teen, as I still have it.
> View attachment 16203852
> 
> 
> Me and my Lorus had some good times. Who can guess what car I am posing in?
> View attachment 16203927
> 
> 
> I think I paid €100 back then? I probably had it for 5 years or so before buying my Citizen AS4050-51E in 2008. Of course a watch like this can't hold a candle to the Promasters I'm used to now, same for the Reguno, but the JDM Promasters I collect now had MSRP's at least five times higher (the MRK models), so it's not fair to compare them. And the surcharge for DLC is usually 30,000 yen for a Citizen with titanium case and bracelet, which can buy you two basic titanium watches! Fortunately I buy my DLC Promasters used on Yahoo for a fraction of what they cost new ^_^
> 
> So yeah, the Citizen Reguno is actually the first "new" watch I've bought since 2008, and only my second "new" watch as an adult, because I'm a cheapskate!


* Lamborghini Countach*


----------



## CitizenPromaster

MarkKenyon said:


> * Lamborghini Countach*


We have a winner!!!


----------



## Skeptical

If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, my first mechanical watch was an Invicta 0420 Pro Diver, a 45mm sub homage in full titanium. It’s still available on Amazon in the US, though I would hesitate to pay more than $100 for one. The price makes me think it’s out of production and just left over stock.

It’s uncoated and you could probably scratch it with a fingernail. The metal on the clasp and hollow end links is so thin you have to take great care not to bend it. Worst is probably the crown…even the crown threads and tube are made from the same untreated titanium and there were a lot of reports of it stripping. But I sold mine on before that happened.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rojote

I had a first generation Seiko Titanium Samurai and if you looked at it the wrong way 3 to 4 scratches would appear out of nowhere. Lol. I actually learned how to use a horse hair titanium scratch repair pen on that Seiko. Before selling it I made it look 98% with that and a cape cod cloth. Sold it for over $850 many years ago.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Speaking of affordable, Prisma is a very old Dutch budget brand, and nowadays they make a whole bunch of titanum watches WITH sapphire for under €150.
Titanium Men Watches That Will Suit Your Style (prisma.watch)


----------



## Rojote

I have an orange face super titanium Promaster landing today. My first titanium Citizen. Curious to see how it compares to my grade 5 titanium H2O scratch wise?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Rojote said:


> I had a first generation Seiko Titanium Samurai and if you looked at it the wrong way 3 to 4 scratches would appear out of nowhere. Lol. I actually learned how to use a horse hair titanium scratch repair pen on that Seiko. Before selling it I made it look 98% with that and a cape cod cloth. Sold it for over $850 many years ago.


Yeah I like that I will be able to refinish the Reguno myself. It's already scratched from the storage lol








By the way, the blue label reads:

REGUNO
No need to replace batteries
Made of light titanium!
Fully luminous!
Citizen Watch Co., Ltd.

Now those are some sellings points!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Rojote said:


> I have an orange face super titanium Promaster landing today. My first titanium Citizen. Curious to see how it compares to my grade 5 titanium H2O scratch wise?


Should be way more scratch resistant.


----------



## Skeptical

I have a Momentum Atlas 38mm titanium watch that was $170 with the optional sapphire crystal. I didn’t opt for it, but they do offer a titanium bracelet for it now (though it’s currently out of stock)









Atlas [38mm] - White Full Lume


The Atlas is our iconic field watch. It features a lightweight titanium case with oversized luminous markers that offer exceptional legibility. A screw-down crown ensures rock-solid water-resistant performance of 100M. Comes standard with scratch-proof sapphire crystal.




momentumwatch.com















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Rojote said:


> I have an orange face super titanium Promaster landing today. My first titanium Citizen. Curious to see how it compares to my grade 5 titanium H2O scratch wise?





CitizenPromaster said:


> Should be way more scratch resistant.


Grade 5 Ti is 400 ~ 450 Hv and Super Titanium (Duratect TIC) is 1000 ~ 1200 Hv.


----------



## Rojote

CitizenPromaster said:


> Yeah I like that I will be able to refinish the Reguno myself. It's already scratched from the storage lol
> View attachment 16204166
> 
> By the way, the blue label reads:
> 
> REGUNO
> No need to replace batteries
> Made of light titanium!
> Fully luminous!
> Citizen Watch Co., Ltd.
> 
> Now those are some sellings points!


Is that a super (coated) titanium or just grade 1 titanium. Yes, pretty easy to make new again. .


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Skeptical said:


> I have a Momentum Atlas 38mm titanium watch. I didn’t opt for it, but they do offer a titanium bracelet for it now (though it’s currently out of stock)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Atlas [38mm] - White Full Lume
> 
> 
> The Atlas is our iconic field watch. It features a lightweight titanium case with oversized luminous markers that offer exceptional legibility. A screw-down crown ensures rock-solid water-resistant performance of 100M. Comes standard with scratch-proof sapphire crystal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> momentumwatch.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha those look familiar!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Rojote said:


> Is that a super (coated) titanium or just grade 1 titanium. Yes, pretty easy to make new again. .


The Reguno is just uncoated low grade titanium, but that has its charm too!


----------



## Rojote

CitizenPromaster said:


> Grade 5 Ti is 400 ~ 450 Hv and Super Titanium (Duratect TIC) is 1000 ~ 1200 Hv.


So it should be pretty comparable. Interesting. I already scratched my grade 5 pulling the lug bars out. I over corrected with the ti pen and hit some of the polished titanium. Took a bit of work with cape cod cloth, but polished out most of the scratches. Took longer than 316l to make right.


----------



## MarkKenyon

CitizenPromaster said:


> We have a winner!!!


Where do I pick up my prize?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

MarkKenyon said:


> Where do I pick up my prize?


You win the respect of your WUS peers 🥳


----------



## Verdict

How tough is Citizen's Super Titanium? Would it be durable enough for everyday wear compared to stainless steel?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Verdict said:


> How tough is Citizen's Super Titanium? Would it be durable enough for everyday wear compared to stainless steel?


I suggest you read the first page of this thread.


----------



## Verdict

CitizenPromaster said:


> I suggest you read the first page of this thread.


Thanks, lots of great info there.

So I guess for Citizen, Duratect Alpha is the one we want. Do you know if the CC9015 has it? It's got the same F900 caliber as the CC9000 on the front page. 

Also, the post also says that Oceanus uses all of the titanium coating methods - does that mean that Oceanus watches are more scratch resistance than regular duratect or diashield?


----------



## Ziptie

Verdict said:


> Thanks, lots of great info there.
> 
> So I guess for Citizen, Duratect Alpha is the one we want. Do you know if the CC9015 has it? It's got the same F900 caliber as the CC9000 on the front page.
> 
> Also, the post also says that Oceanus uses all of the titanium coating methods - does that mean that Oceanus watches are more scratch resistance than regular duratect or diashield?


I wouldn’t be so hasty to jump to the alpha version simply because it’s the best. It’s fairly rare, and only stocked on citizens top-of-the-line offerings. Citizen’s standard TIC and MRK offerings are so far beyond the rest of the industry that they’ll probably be just fine. Either one of them is far more resistant to scratching than stainless.


----------



## MarkKenyon

CitizenPromaster said:


> You win the respect of your WUS peers 🥳


Nothing better than that!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Verdict said:


> Thanks, lots of great info there.
> 
> So I guess for Citizen, Duratect Alpha is the one we want. Do you know if the CC9015 has it? It's got the same F900 caliber as the CC9000 on the front page.
> 
> Also, the post also says that Oceanus uses all of the titanium coating methods - does that mean that Oceanus watches are more scratch resistance than regular duratect or diashield?


As Ziptie said, Duratect Alpha is rare, and usually those watches cost thousands of euros/dollars. Satellite Wave GPS watches usually have TIC (and so does the CC9015), some have MRK, some have DLC.

As for Oceanus, I don't know the specifics, but in choosing between Citizen and Casio I don't think the surface treatment will be a deciding factor. And unless you are REALLY careful, you will still get scratches. Perhaps those few scratches will annoy you more than having many scratches on stainless steel, since on stainless steel they can't be avoided and they can be refinished to a certain extent, which is not feasible on coated/hardened titanium. And then you think of how flimsy and cheap the lightweight titanium feels, and you will regret buying a Citizen and feel cheated by the people in this thread who got your hopes up ;-)

Maybe try before you buy? Go to a store, or buy a cheap used one, there are plenty of "Super Titanium" Citizens for sale on WUS or on your local flea market website.


----------



## Rojote

Had to join the club. .


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I never really noticed, but the bezel on the (stainless steel) Blue Angels Nighthawk is actually ion-plated blue.
> 
> View attachment 15763391
> 
> 
> Photo stolen from: Low flyover and landing of the new Blue Angels Nighthawk BJ7006-56L | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> 
> Citizen could do more with that option, like a completely blue case and bracelet. Others already do, even on titanium.
> 
> View attachment 15763421
> 
> 
> View attachment 15763422
> 
> 
> And as far as I know Citizen has also never sold anodized titanium watches. Sure, it's not scratch resistant, but that can be stated as a trade-off for fun colors.
> 
> View attachment 15763434
> 
> View attachment 15763442
> 
> View attachment 15763443


There are a lot of videos on youtube on how to anodize titanium at home, for example people are anodizing their titanium knive handles. But I can't find a lot of examples of people anodizing their titanium watch, which could be done just as easily, on bare titanium watches like the Reguno anyway. But it turns out anodizing Super Titanium (Duratect TIC) is also possible, as some guy did it on his Promaster GMT diver (BJ7110-89E).

























































He is selling it for $436 on the website you see watermarked in the photos. What say yee, yay or nay?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Citizen Reguno also has a few radiocontrolled watches (Japan reception only), but only in stainless steel. A few years ago however, Reguno made a couple of titanium RC models, like the one below. This being a more upmarket model, it actually had "white plating", which I guess was Duratect TIC.








































I guess making a Reguno at this price point with these features made it a competitor to the basic Eco-Drive Super Titanium models, which might be why they discontinued it.


----------



## ElGhurafiy

CitizenPromaster said:


> Two ATP53-2703's popped up for sale, both seemed to be working, but one was a bit more scratched up which I guess resulted in the slightly lower price.
> View attachment 16202012
> 
> 
> My 10,000 yen "junk" ATP53-2704 came back to life in the sun, but it won't charge enough to be able to do radio reception. I tried to sell it for cheap locally, but I guess nobody feels like replacing the battery, so it will just live in my watch box.


I was on the hunt for one of them 😁. I guess you won it instead as I didn't put that much amount on them. 

Care to share "how cheap" you were offering it? You don't know, maybe I will be interested 😉


----------



## CitizenPromaster

ElGhurafiy said:


> I was on the hunt for one of them 😁. I guess you won it instead as I didn't put that much amount on them.
> 
> Care to share "how cheap" you were offering it? You don't know, maybe I will be interested 😉


I was offering it at cost pretty much, since it needs a new battery and since the ring around the dial has moved, so a watchmaker will have to adress both issues.
There is one in similar or even slightly better condition though, and I think with one extra link compared to mine, but also needs a new battery: CITIZEN シチズン　ATTESA　日本製　GN-4W-S エコドライブ　腕時計 定形外の場合、送料300円★ /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! 
And one of those 2703's was relisted by ecoworld2016: 1円◎正規品◎【シチズン】アテッサ E610-T008739 電波ソーラー チタン クロノグラフ デイト コマ3付 メンズ腕時計 A0138204 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


----------



## ElGhurafiy

Thank


CitizenPromaster said:


> I was offering it at cost pretty much, since it needs a new battery and since the ring around the dial has moved, so a watchmaker will have to adress both issues.
> There is one in similar or even slightly better condition though, and I think with one extra link compared to mine, but also needs a new battery: CITIZEN シチズン　ATTESA　日本製　GN-4W-S エコドライブ　腕時計 定形外の場合、送料300円★ /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan!
> And one of those 2703's was relisted by ecoworld2016: 1円◎正規品◎【シチズン】アテッサ E610-T008739 電波ソーラー チタン クロノグラフ デイト コマ3付 メンズ腕時計 A0138204 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


Thanks for the insight. I already have one, just need one with an almost perfect bracelet. I will keep an eye for both, I will bid for 5000 at max and hope to get one of them lol.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

ElGhurafiy said:


> Thank
> 
> Thanks for the insight. I already have one, just need one with an almost perfect bracelet. I will keep an eye for both, I will bid for 5000 at max and hope to get one of them lol.


I fear they will go a bit higher than 5k yen  but either way you won't have any competition from me!


----------



## ElGhurafiy

CitizenPromaster said:


> I fear they will go a bit higher than 5k yen  but either way you won't have any competition from me!


Nothing wrong with trying tho 😁. I will not even try to compete with you, I am too cheap to do that 😎.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I guess the prices are pretty consistent...








This one isn't selling, but in addition to not running, the bracelet and case are pretty scratched up...









...which serves as a reminder that DLC is pretty scratch resistant but not scratch proof.








Another just popped up, but the bracelet is pretty short.
シチズン アテッサ エコドライブ ATP53-2704 チタン クロノグラフ デイデイト 電波 ソーラー 定価110,000円 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


----------



## CitizenPromaster

ElGhurafiy said:


> I was on the hunt for one of them 😁. I guess you won it instead as I didn't put that much amount on them.


The starting price was 10,000 yen and to my surprise I was the only bidder. The other auctions show that it was a good deal.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Relisting makes people wary...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Apparently Citizen EU also got some Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary models.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> It turns out Citizen does make a few uncoated titanium watches, though not under the Citizen name of course, but their sub-brand Reguno, which I guess is what Pulsar, or rather Lorus is to Seiko.
> These are Eco-Drive Solar-Tech (a name Citizen used before Eco-Drive) and have day-date, but also crystal glass and a folded link bracelet to keep the cost down.
> View attachment 16202560
> 
> And this is what one looks like in the flesh with some wear.
> View attachment 16202565
> 
> View attachment 16202568
> 
> View attachment 16202569
> 
> View attachment 16202571
> 
> View attachment 16202572
> 
> 
> Reguno is not sold in Holland as far as I know, only the sub-brand Q&Q is, but the cheapest (and only) titanium Lorus is currently this one at €99.
> View attachment 16202576
> 
> 
> Obviously this is not solar and it also has no day function.
> 
> The Reguno's can be bought for around €100 on Yahoo, so I decided to buy one as a grab and go beater (sometimes I hesitate to put on my Promaster).
> 
> Here is the one I just bought for 10,800 yen, it is unused as you can see. I don't usually go for white dials, but the black one wasn't available, and apparently this one is full lume.
> View attachment 16202584
> 
> View attachment 16202586
> 
> 
> I have a few titanium quartz watches laying around that could qualify for the job of grab and go beater, but I don't feel like replacing the battery every few years, so this seemed like a good idea and I'm curious how it will hold up as a budget Citizen. Including Dutch VAT it will have cost me €100.





CitizenPromaster said:


> As I usually don’t shop for brand new watches, it only dawned on me now that the right place to look for them is not Yahoo Auction but Yahoo Shopping and Rakuten, where you can find all four variants for around 13,900 yen. I got a better deal though, so the full lume dial is fine for me. I do hope the lume is more uniform than on below example (there is a darker patch).
> View attachment 16203216


My Citizen Reguno has arrived, so here is a little review

Resizing the folded links bracelet was a real pain! I watched a tutorial on YouTube, but his method was lousy. I found a better way on the third link, and now it is the right size.









The bracelet is pretty flimsy, which I was expecting and doesn't bother me, and in hindsight my Lorus was more sturdy, with thicker folded links. Speaking of my Lorus, I never considered the titanium on that watch to be polished, but look at the difference with the Reguno!

















I really like the bead blasted look of the Reguno though, truly titanium! The watch was unused, but being uncoated titanium it's already full of scratches from the storage. I might experiment with refinishing it in the future.

This solar movement has a power reserve of 8 months, but it was skipping seconds when I took it out of the packaging, indicating an almost empty battery. I put it under a lamp for a while and it went back to normal operation, but the lamp was too close and the watch was 60 degrees C (to the touch), which is the maximum temperature rating for Citizen quartz movements...








Oh well, I'm sure there is some margin (a computer's CPU - with similar materials - can take 70 or 80 C without problems), and either way it seems to have survived the roasting.

The seconds hand is not anywhere near the markers, and for half the rotation it is actually right in between the markers haha. I don't care on a watch like this.

As for the lume, in the below photo it looks blue-green, but I guess my iPhone has a lousy camera, because it is actually green, like the lumeshot I posted previously.








Here is a lumeshot of a random watch with the real life color.









So considering it cost me about €100, it will be a nice little beater. If you spend a little more though you can buy all kinds of used Super Titanium Eco-Drive Citizens, so I would never call a brand new watch good value for money. But regardless of all the used alternatives, I am happy with my little matte grey Reguno!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> And parv discovered Hong Kong is offering an Asia Limited Model of the NY titanium diver, only 500 pieces of this DLC NY0105-81E: CITIZEN WATCH
> It is 75% more expensive than the regular titanium model, but if the cult status of the black PVD titanium Aqualand C028 is anything to go by, this DLC NY might become a collector's item.
> 
> View attachment 15469371





Fergfour said:


> Ordered a NY0105-81E the other day. Super Titanium Duratect DLC. I've had a couple of Fugu's before but this one checks more boxes for me.





Fergfour said:


> Ultra fast shipping from Hong Kong. In case anyone is interested mine comes in at 114g (4oz). That's with 2 of the links removed for my 7 1/4 inch wrist.


I thought you guys might like to know that Citizen Italy has a limited edition of the EU titanium Fugu's. They are not listed as DLC, but they probably are. 1,000 pieces each. Sapphire, 8204.








The regular ones are these.









So titanium + DLC, full lume... anyone tempted?




























The dial is very yellow though...


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> So considering it cost me about €100, it will be a nice little beater. If you spend a little more though you can buy all kinds of used Super Titanium Eco-Drive Citizens, so I would never call a brand new watch good value for money.


To proof my point, I just bought a used example of my Reguno (with a 16 cm bracelet) for the price of a take-away pizza!!








The shipping will cost me more haha. It's always nice to have a spare though! And it's bizarre that I paid only 8% of what I paid for the unused one, which was already discounted significantly.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

This watch is pretty mind-blowing. Custom made for Nissan, GT-R branding everywhere, and a unique pusher in the shape of a piston head!

















































It is not hard to see what it is based on.


----------



## acp5533

Wow. Reminds me of some of the crazy custom faces I made with android watches.


----------



## ParkinNJ

The Citizen AQ4091-56L


----------



## phubbard

ParkinNJ said:


> The Citizen AQ4091-56L
> View attachment 16250949


Stunning. I’ve long admired that one. Please consider writing a review. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## AdrianS

New member here (longtime lurker) showing off my new citizen Promaster Tough 😁


----------



## Racer-X

JDM Jetsetter


----------



## parv

Racer-X said:


> JDM Jetsetter


Would you happen to know when it was released? What is the case size?

(Leaving a reference for future self: c Nov 2012 thread on ATV53-2831, -2832, -2833, -2834; other similar ones include ATV53-3000 series.)

I knew it! Watches in *hawk series could have been much more appealing without the useless scales & assorted text.


----------



## Racer-X

parv said:


> Would you happen to know when it was released? What is case size?
> 
> I knew it! Watches in *hawk series could have been much more appealing without the useless scales & assorted text.


2007
41mm


----------



## CitizenPromaster

parv said:


> Would you happen to know when it was released? What is case size?
> 
> I knew it! Watches in *hawk series could have been much more appealing without the useless scales & assorted text.


I am posting this meme on behalf of the PMV65-2271.


----------



## vmaniqui

just joined the club as I just got this titanium red arrows watch. I hope it's worth the price I paid for them.


----------



## vmgotit

Here is my Citizen, that is my do anything work Watch. I wore a Eco-Zilla for many years while working for CenturyLink, out side, installation and Repair. Hard on the Watch and never a problem. Gave the Watch to my son. Now, this is my “beater“. I refer to this as my”Citizen GShock”. Vance.


----------



## Speedman

My C026 Titanium


----------



## CitizenPromaster

parv said:


> Would you happen to know when it was released? What is the case size?
> 
> (Leaving a reference for future self: c Nov 2012 thread on ATV53-2831, -2832, -2833, -2834; other similar ones include ATV53-3000 series.)
> 
> I knew it! Watches in *hawk series could have been much more appealing without the useless scales & assorted text.


Go get 'em, Tiger


----------



## kubr1ck




----------



## adnj

parv said:


> Would you happen to know when it was released? What is the case size?
> 
> (Leaving a reference for future self: c Nov 2012 thread on ATV53-2831, -2832, -2833, -2834; other similar ones include ATV53-3000 series.)
> 
> I knew it! Watches in *hawk series could have been much more appealing without the useless scales & assorted text.


There were a few watches in the Attesa series that were much more legible than their Skyhawk/Navihawak counterparts. Just do a search for Citizen watches using the U600/U680 movement or ana-digi.

Sent from my LG-V520 using Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

So I've bought another one of those awful Pilot watches with the useless scales & assorted text.








This is the JY8025-59E, the DLC version of the PMV65-2271, and actually MRK+DLC. I bought it used, and of course I don't know how intensely it was used by previous owners, but it is in pretty good condition overall! It has some wear, but at arm's length you hardly notice it.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Yeah I know, DLC watches with a sapphire crystal are expensive, but at least they are not likely to end up looking like this black PVD watch!

































But I guess you could call it character ^_^


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> There are plenty of these, used and unused, on Yahoo Japan Auction for pretty attractive prices...
> As I said a few months ago, I expect these two to be discontinued soon, together with the PMV65-2271 and the DLC JY8025-59E. Citizen Japan already discontinued the PMV65-2272 last month, so my prediction is starting to come true. I don’t think the others will make it past winter 2020 or spring 2021, but I hope I’m wrong!
> 
> When these are gone, afaik only the Promaster Land PMD56-2951/2952 will have the beloved micro-adjust clasp (that is not a diver extension). The good news, as I've stated before, is that the new Promaster Sky pilot watch line is still MRK, and even internationally, if that model is sold in your country.


This morning I was checking Citizen.jp and I noticed that the BY0080-57E and BY0084-56E were gone from the Promaster Sky page. Only the PMV65-2271 and JY8025-59E are left...


----------



## Robotaz

Saw this and decided sure it’s already posted, but I’ll throw it out to make sure.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Another custom watch by Citizen, for the smokers out there...


----------



## makes2068

My both titanium watches...


----------



## ElGhurafiy

makes2068 said:


> My both titanium watches...
> 
> View attachment 16289414
> 
> View attachment 16289415


Loved that Tsunu, feels weird and nice at the same time!


----------



## Lepdiggums

Banned again promaster 🤔


----------



## bugi




----------



## MarkKenyon

Lepdiggums said:


> Banned again promaster 🤔


Any idea why?


----------



## makes2068

Some new stuff..


----------



## martyloveswatches

Nice one. Have the all blue steel cousin  (to pollute the thread a little bit...sorry)


----------



## MarkKenyon

Wearing the new Titanium NJ2180-11A while I upgrade the crystal in my Seiko 5 SNZG13K1 to sapphire.


----------



## wongthian2

wrist 2 by toypoodleKimi, on Flickr


----------



## Pascal S




----------



## fhsgolfer

makes2068 said:


> Some new stuff..
> View attachment 16340080


If you ever decide to sell this one please let me know!!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

MarkKenyon said:


> Any idea why?


Because I'm awesome, that's why!


----------



## Tiribos

CitizenPromaster said:


> Because I'm awesome, that's why!
> 
> View attachment 16357085


Welcome back 🤠


----------



## Lepdiggums

MarkKenyon said:


> Any idea why?


No sure MarkKenyon😉


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> Because I'm awesome, that's why!
> 
> View attachment 16357085


Welcome back😉👍hopefully you have some new insights for use all😁


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Let me post how the universe has rewarded me for my work on this thread.

I will probably never be able to acquire the below display that I posted in post #347...









But I found and was able to buy the next best thing, a Japanese dealer display showing four polished titanium rings, one bare titanium, one with Duratect TIC, one with black IP, and one with Duratect DLC. It also came with an info sheet for the dealer, how he could talk to customers about it. And this is the only time I've ever seen Citizen disclose the Vickers hardness of their black IP ("black PVD" coating), which is 350 ~ 700 Hv.










I bought a little display case to keep my Super Titanium display dust-free. I can't show ya'll the contents of my watch box though, it's too awesome, NSFW.


----------



## MarkKenyon

CitizenPromaster said:


> Because I'm awesome, that's why!
> 
> View attachment 16357085


Glad to see you're back!


----------



## bugi




----------



## Gerry.GEG

The Duratech on this model from Circa 2004 wears like iron.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> You might have seen this full DLC Attesa Jetsetter...
> 
> View attachment 15879624
> 
> 
> But have you seen this limited edition (700) Gold and DLC Jetsetter? Definitely a fashion statement!
> 
> View attachment 15879630
> 
> View attachment 15879636


I didn't mention in the quoted post that this golden Jetsetter, the ATV53-2934, is one of the relatively few watches using the Duratect Gold that is mentioned on page 1 of this thread, which is not to be confused with the more recent Duratect MRK Gold. Duratect Gold is described as "Using a proprietary processing technology, coated with gold and alloy compound on a hard film." and has a Vickers hardness of 1,300 to 1,500 Hv. It seems to have only been used on a few watches around 2008/2009 as far as I know, and I think Citizen soon discovered that it is not as durable as one would like. The thin gold top coating seems just as prone to wear as any thin gold coating. The hard film that remains below might still be hard, but it starts becoming visible, as the below worn example illustrates.






































I actually like the blue and purple shining through, as it looks like anodized titanium, but if you bought the watch for the golden look, you might not be a happy customer, as the price tag was a hefty 188,000 yen. To be fair, this is the most worn example I've seen, but on other examples you do see the wear kicking in. Perhaps Duratect MRK Gold is more resistant to wear, I guess we might know 10 years from now, but either way it is not bright gold like Duratect Gold, so it doesn't offer the same esthetic when new.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The Duratect TIC (and DLC) ATV53-2932 was "only" 136,500 yen, but at only 1,000 to 1,200 Hv for the TIC it is much more prone to scratches, as this example shows.










































Someone in Europe collected them all (left to right, 2931, 2934, 2932, 2933).


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

wow, what a find, congrats!

also


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Gl3nS1m0n said:


> wow, what a find, congrats!
> 
> also


----------



## journeyforce

I came across this Skyhawk PMV65-2241 on Mercari Japan. It is probably the closest to a new in box for this model that I will see.......and I missed it by a few hours earlier this week



https://buyee.jp/mercari/item/m13548109450?conversionType=service_page_search



Made of Duratect Ti, these models (the regular Ti models and not the DLC version) seem to hold up well. Of course it seems like only the USA models like to easily scratch and look like crap

Here is some pics of the watch from the seller's pics. I have never seen that fold tag that is on the bracelet before.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...


































In 2019 Citizen celebrated the 30th anniversary of the Promaster brand, so they take 1989 as the starting point, but as you might know, Citizen had the Sporte brand in the domestic market before that time (since 1983) and they did not adopt the Promaster brand in Japan until 1995 (or possibly late 1994). This watch is one of the models in that first JDM Promaster collection. And it might surprise you, but similar to Attesa, Citizen Japan promoted the Promaster brand as being exclusively titanium! The following is taken from the 1995 JDM Citizen catalog.










Citizen let go of that "only titanium" pretty fast though...

Notice also the fancy (Swiss-ish) folding part of the clasp, which I've only seen on some models in the aforementioned first JDM Promaster collection. I think it is MIM rather than milled though. After this they went back to a pressed folding part, and around 2003 the "milled" folding part appeared (as shown before in this thread).

The watch shown here has a stainless steel bezel, for a little extra protection I guess. Here it is in the catalog with some siblings.










There was also a bullhead in this collection, which is pretty rare, with white or black dial.









They have the same fancy folding part in the clasp.









These early titanium Promasters have the Glass Multi-layer Coating (GMC, see elsewhere in this thread), which Citizen started specifying from 1996 onwards.










In 1996 Citizen also introduced DURA TITAN on the Tough models, an early form of gas hardening which I've discussed in this thread before.


----------



## mplsabdullah

.









Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Nice, these were of course pre-Duratect, and labeled as TIN, for which the official explanation was (auto-translated):
> "The side is made of titanium material with excellent durability and touch resistance. Hardness close to cemented carbide, lighter than cemented carbide."
> In a graph the TIN is shown as having as having a Vickers hardness of 1,000 Hv.
> 
> View attachment 15714572
> 
> 
> That's all I've been able to gather about this particular TIN so far. Around 2002 Citizen used something they called TIN as well, but that was only 600-800 Hv, and it seems to be unrelated.
> 
> If I speculate about the surface treatment... seeing as the TIB I discussed recently and the TIN are the same hardness, but one is black in appearance and the other is silver, I would guess they are both early variations of titanium nitride (TiN), TIB possibly being TiCN or TiAlN or AlTiN.
> 
> When speculating about Duratect α earllier, I wrote:
> 
> _Considering the hardness of Duratect α, I'm guessing it is some variant of titanium nitride (TiN).
> Wikipedia: "There are several commercially used variants of TiN that have been developed since 2010, such as titanium carbon nitride (TiCN), titanium aluminium nitride (TiAlN or AlTiN), and titanium aluminum carbon nitride, which may be used individually or in alternating layers with TiN. These coatings offer similar or superior enhancements in corrosion resistance and hardness, and additional colors ranging from light gray to nearly black, to a dark iridescent bluish-purple depending on the exact process of application."_
> 
> Considering that TiN variants were still being developed commercially in recent times, that might be the reason Citizen was being so vague and secretive about their surface treatments in the 80s and 90s. It was state of the art technology, and they were laying the groundwork for all of the Duratect variations of today.


I finally got one of the BASE TITANIUM TIN Citizens, not the 800m Professional Diver's from 1991, but the even more rare 300m Professional Diver's from 1989.

















It came with or without a titanium bracelet, and it was pretty costly either way.










It doesn't do much for me as a Pilot watch lover, so I will likely flip it to a dive watch collector if they come up with the right number.


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> I finally got one of the BASE TITANIUM TIN Citizens, not the 800m Professional Diver's from 1991, but the even more rare 300m Professional Diver's from 1989.
> View attachment 16495712
> 
> View attachment 16495713
> 
> 
> It came with or without a titanium bracelet, and it was pretty costly either way.
> View attachment 16495720
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't do much for me as a Pilot watch lover, so I will likely flip it to a dive watch collector if they come up with the right number.


Holy Cow!! You actually broke down and picked up a dive watch, I can’t believe it. This one must be pretty rare indeed.


----------



## siomon

My triplets after sync


----------



## Matter of Time

siomon said:


> My triplets after sync
> View attachment 16501647
> 
> View attachment 16501646


Nice triplets. Great to see them all in one shot. It shows how dark the blue is on the AT6080-53L, even next to the black dial of the PMD56-2952. All you need now is the all-black
AT6085-50E


----------



## siomon

Matter of Time said:


> Nice triplets. Great to see them all in one shot. It shows how dark the blue is on the AT6080-53L, even next to the black dial of the PMD56-2952. All you need now is the all-black
> AT6085-50E


Thanks! The colors of all of them depend heavily on lighting. Recently I got a question about the color of the middle one because it looked green in the photo


----------



## MarkKenyon

siomon said:


> My triplets after sync
> View attachment 16501647
> 
> View attachment 16501646


Stunning!


----------



## MarkKenyon

Does anyone know where I can get a titanium bracelet for the Citizen BN0200-81E?
On Masters In Time I only see a stainless steel bracelet: Masters-In-Time Strap
I'm open to aftermarket, doesn't have to be OEM Citizen.


----------



## El Pescador

Love this on Scurfa rubber!


----------



## Aero2001

MarkKenyon said:


> Does anyone know where I can get a titanium bracelet for the Citizen BN0200-81E?
> On Masters In Time I only see a stainless steel bracelet: Masters-In-Time Strap
> I'm open to aftermarket, doesn't have to be OEM Citizen.
> 
> View attachment 16504495


You can order it from Citizen. I have the same watch with the orange dial, and called Citizen about getting the bracelet. It was available for $215, but the rep could not guarantee it would be a perfect fit, saying the holes for the lugs might not be in the same places on the strap and bracelet versions. That seemed weird to me, and she said it would almost certainly fit and could be returned if it didn’t. This was about a year ago; I would expect it to still be available.


----------



## MarkKenyon

Aero2001 said:


> You can order it from Citizen. I have the same watch with the orange dial, and called Citizen about getting the bracelet. It was available for $215, but the rep could not guarantee it would be a perfect fit, saying the holes for the lugs might not be in the same places on the strap and bracelet versions. That seemed weird to me, and she said it would almost certainly fit and could be returned if it didn’t. This was about a year ago; I would expect it to still be available.


Thanks, I’ll reach out to them.


----------



## Ziptie

MarkKenyon said:


> Thanks, I’ll reach out to them.


I have one I purchased used, hoping it would fit another Citizen. It did not. Same disclaimer as above regarding the pin position, but I’m happy to give you a deal on mine. Full length, with spare links and pins from Citizen.


----------



## MarkKenyon

Ziptie said:


> I have one I purchased used, hoping it would fit another Citizen. It did not. Same disclaimer as above regarding the pin position, but I’m happy to give you a deal on mine. Full length, with spare links and pins from Citizen.


Sounds good, is it SS ot Ti? 22mm correct?


----------



## Ziptie

MarkKenyon said:


> Sounds good, is it SS ot Ti? 22mm correct?


Yep, 22mm ti. Will DM you.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I finally got one of the BASE TITANIUM TIN Citizens, not the 800m Professional Diver's from 1991, but the even more rare 300m Professional Diver's from 1989.
> View attachment 16495712
> 
> View attachment 16495713
> 
> 
> It came with or without a titanium bracelet, and it was pretty costly either way.
> View attachment 16495720
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't do much for me as a Pilot watch lover, so I will likely flip it to a dive watch collector if they come up with the right number.


If anyone is interested, I listed it on WUS.


----------



## MarkKenyon

CitizenPromaster said:


> If anyone is interested, I listed it on WUS.


From the WUS listing: 

"I usually don't sell watches, so I don't have any positive reviews to offer you, but if you don't know my user name and character from the Definitive Citizen Titanium Thread and worry about my credentials as a seller, *feel free to let this watch pass*."

Very nicely stated


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Citizen is being more vague about the Vickers hardness ratings on the most recent Duratect page.
The graph doesn't seem to have changed much though, they are just less consistent in listing the hardness in the explanations of the different surface treatments. Sometimes they mention nothing (DLC), sometimes they are vague (TIC, no longer 1,000 ~ 1,200 Hv but "1,000 Hv or more"), and sometimes they still mention the full range (Alpha, "2,000 to 2,500 Hv").









CITIZEN TECHNOLOGY SITE [CITIZEN-WATCHES]


----------



## CitizenPromaster

wrong screen


----------



## MarkKenyon

Loving the new titanium bracelet from @Ziptie


----------



## Alansmithee

The AT8185-97E is very tasty... price not so much.


----------



## martyloveswatches

Finally I got the cb0170-81e (black on bracelet). This is the regular non-montbell edition. Does anyone know what is the coating & hardness on this one (super titanium)?

Photo is from my colleague who I finally persuaded to sell it... 

Is it the same on all models (mont bell and regular) or? (just wondering)


----------



## Ziptie

martyloveswatches said:


> Finally I got the cb0170-81e (black on bracelet). This is the regular non-montbell edition. Does anyone know what is the coating & hardness on this one (super titanium)?
> 
> Photp is from my colleague whi I finally persuaded to sell it...
> 
> Is it the same on all models (mont bell and regular) or? (just wondering)


Excellent addition! I love that dial! There are 3 coatings used on that family. The “normal” Duratect TIC, the harder MRK on the CB0171-97e model, and the black DLC coating on a few versions. Yours is the TIC. The TIC is arguably a better treatment than any titanium from any other watch brand. (If anyone starts talking about grade 5 ti, send them to this thread.)

For all of the details on that model family, see the thread I started. Citizen CB0170 / CB0171 / CB0177 family


----------



## martyloveswatches

Tnx!


----------



## Robbie_roy

martyloveswatches said:


> cb0170-81e


That’s a really sharp looking watch, congrats! Wish more Citizens had that nice sword handset.


----------



## nuhobby

Robbie_roy said:


> That’s a really sharp looking watch, congrats! Wish more Citizens had that nice sword handset.


I agree 100%. I have a very old Citizen Eco-Drive that I keep for that very reason. I like the sword shape much more than just about any other.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

This info is in no way related to Citizen, but it offers some relevant insights.

"Surface coating can greatly enhance the lifetime of cold extrusion die. It is a significant issue to evaluate the performance of coatings and even predict the lifetime of cold extrusion die. In this work, the titanium-based nitride coatings including TiN, TiAlN, and TiAlCrN were, respectively, deposited on the surface of high-speed steel substrate W6Mo5Cr4V2 (M2) by the physical vapor deposition technology. The hardness test, scratch test, Rockwell adhesion test, and pin-on-disc (POD) wear test were carried out aiming to investigate the performances of the three coatings including hardness, adhesion strength, and wear resistance. The results show that the TiAlCrN coating exhibits the highest hardness of 3,033 HV in comparison with TiN coating (1,222 HV) and TiAlN coating (1,916 HV), while it possesses poor adhesion strength and inferior wear resistance. Furthermore, the TiAlN coating presents the highest resistance to wear and spalling from the substrate. In addition, the Archard wear model of the coatings was solved and applied in the finite element model of cold extrusion to calculate the wear depth and lifetime of the cold extrusion dies. The results suggest that TiAlN coating is the optimal option for cold extrusion die as compared with TiAlCrN and TiN coatings. TiAlN coating can prolong the lifetime of the substrate die up to 260%."
Source: Performance evaluation of titanium-based metal nitride coatings and die lifetime prediction in a cold extrusion process (degruyter.com)


----------



## martyloveswatches

Arrived finally


----------



## sky21

martyloveswatches said:


> Arrived finally


Very unique watch around here, is the center of the dial a dark brown color?


----------



## martyloveswatches

It is more of dark dark grey, almost black. Appears brownish due to angle and light


----------



## sky21

martyloveswatches said:


> It is more of dark dark grey, almost black. Appears brownish due to angle and light


Looks very nice, how does it wear on your wrist?


----------



## martyloveswatches

Wears great. I am used to steel divers so it is strange at first having such a light yet bulletproof watch. I have 7.5inch wrist so 42 wears great. 

Ideal sporty casual piece. IMHO looks great even in more formal situations


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I always think I'm going to run out of things to say about Citizen titanium, and then I find more things to research and chronicle!
> 
> This time I saw a post from lenny, who visited WUS between 2006 and 2016. He found a different version of the 800m professional diver that I've shown in this thread.
> 
> View attachment 15687222
> 
> View attachment 15687223
> 
> 
> He wrote: "According to Citizen Japan, this model was made in 1984. They had no other info except that the UK division may have some spare parts. As far as the composition, the gold parts are immersion gold plated titanium. I am not sure about the black portion. It does not feel like ss/titanium or plastic. Maybe magnesium?"
> 
> Well, if we look closely at the above picture, we can just make out TIB-IG on the caseback, and both TIB and TIB-IG are explained in old JDM Citizen catalogues as (auto-translate):
> TIB : black color titanium side : case made of titanium with black surface treatment
> TIBIG : black titanium + hard gold color side : a case made of titanium with a hard gold color treatment partially on the side that was subjected to a black surface treatment
> 
> I had translated the phrase about TIBIG before, but I had never found a watch that employed it. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us the nature of the black surface treatment, but at least we know that the black case is not magnesium but titanium, and it would make sense if it is black PVD as discussed on page 23.
> 
> So there you have it, black titanium in 1984!





CitizenPromaster said:


> Nobody liked this post (literally), but I'm not here for likes, so I won't let that stop me from going on about this particular subject LOL
> I have unknowlingly seen a watch before that employs TIB-IG, and most of you probably have too. The titanium C026/C027/C028/C029 Aqualand!
> 
> View attachment 15697654
> 
> View attachment 15697655
> 
> 
> It is a very crude coating, as is more evident in the below photo of a C026. Reminds me of underbody coating for cars
> View attachment 15697739
> 
> View attachment 15697735





CitizenPromaster said:


> If I speculate about the surface treatment... seeing as the TIB I discussed recently and the TIN are the same hardness, but one is black in appearance and the other is silver, I would guess they are both early variations of titanium nitride (TiN), TIB possibly being TiCN or TiAlN or AlTiN.


I think I've finally found a description of the TIB coating. Someone claimed to quote Citizen on "the 'black sprayed' or IB (ion bonded) versions of the Aqualand":

"Various materials can be used for black spraying. For this watch case, composite materials of alumina (Al2O3) and titanium oxide (TiO2) are employed. The composite materials are heated using a mixture of acetylene and oxygen gas. When half-melted, the mixture is sprayed onto the case.
Black spraying has the following merits:

Excellent hardness (HV 800 - 1000) and wear resistance
Difficult to scratch, crack or cut
Coatings using this method are 30-50 microns thick. Black spraying is widely used in industry. Examples include the NASA Space Shuttle, jet engines and nuclear reactors."

If this is indeed a quote from Citizen, I think this does not describe the smooth black coating seen on BASE METAL IB Aqualands, but the rough black coating seen on TIB-IG Aqualands, as the wear seen on BASE METAL IB Aqualands does not match a Vickers hardness of 800 - 1,000 Hv, and TIB was in fact described as having a hardness of 1,000 Hv, as can be seen in the below graph that I've posted before in this thread.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I would swear this was titanium, but it isn't. I wish all stainless steel watches looked this good


----------



## Alansmithee

Interesting write-up elsewhere of the PMP56-2941.

(Also that is a lovely looking watch just above).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Alansmithee said:


> Interesting write-up elsewhere of the PMP56-2941.
> 
> (Also that is a lovely looking watch just above).


He posted it on WUS too: One not seen on here very often the PMP56-2941. | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


----------



## Verdict

I'm going to draw upon the expert Citizen knowledge of @CitizenPromaster once again - do you know if Citizen will polish or restore duratect alpha coated titanium cases?

edit: Answered by own question: they do. But only in Japan.

WATCH POLISHING SERVICE | CITIZEN WATCH OFFICIAL SITE [CITIZEN-CITIZEN] 

I don't think this service is available elsewhere, but you may have to negotiate with the Service Center of wherever you are to see if they'll send it to Japan.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Verdict said:


> I'm going to draw upon the expert Citizen knowledge of @CitizenPromaster once again - do you know if Citizen will polish or restore duratect alpha coated titanium cases?
> 
> edit: Answered by own question: they do. But only in Japan.
> 
> WATCH POLISHING SERVICE | CITIZEN WATCH OFFICIAL SITE [CITIZEN-CITIZEN]
> 
> I don't think this service is available elsewhere, but you may have to negotiate with the Service Center of wherever you are to see if they'll send it to Japan.


Very interesting find, as until now we have only speculated on the subject. We postulated Duratect surface treatments could not be refinished, because of the hardness. Well, this turns out to be true, except Citizen has a way to "peel off the surface treatment process with a special solvent", then it is polished, then "special processing treatment is applied to the case after polishing". All this sounds rather expensive!

There are some caveats, or precautions as Citizen calls it:
・ deep wounds such as dents may not be able to be removed. ※ we will respond to the extent possible in favor of maintaining the appearance shape.
・ even if it is an target model, it may not be accepted depending on the state of the watch (there is a possibility of breakage at the time of polishing, plating processing, etc.).
・ some special structure models may not be accepted.
・ polishing is only applicable to the case part of the watch, but the back cover cannot be polished because it is engraved.
・ For the Citizen model equipped with Cal.0200, in addition to the case part (excluding the back cover), the band part is also polished. However, the middle mark part cannot be polished.
・ shaving scraps generated during polishing cannot be returned. (please be careful if you wish to polish a solid gold model)
・ the mark part of the middle fastening cannot be polished.
・ the period of check-in of the watch varies depending on the state of the clock, but it will be about 3 months. (when requesting polishing such as a set of disassembly and cleaning, we will keep the watch for more than the above days)

Citizen mentions they also repolish the Cal. 200, which I assumed had Duratect Alpha, but according to the specs it is just uncoated stainless steel!

I still don't think they offer this for Duratect MRK though, because you can't peel off gas hardening, as it is not a coating. I also wonder whether they will re-apply what was on the watch originally, so Duratect TIC becomes Duratect TIC again, Duratect PTIC becomes Duratect PTIC again, Duratect Alpha becomes Duratect Alpha again, or if Duratect Alpha is excluded (which is unlikely to need refinishing anyway), or if they will upgrade the coating while they are at it, or perhaps even downgrade the coating. I also notice they mention polishing, but not brushing.

Citizen also expects you to disassemble the watch completely yourself (unless you pay extra), so I think this service is mostly aimed at dealers/watchmakers.

So in my humble opinion, this page still doesn't answer your question "do you know if Citizen will polish or restore duratect alpha coated titanium cases?", but considering the Vickers hardness of 2,000 Hv - the same as sapphire - it is unlikely to need a complete restoration, so what makes you curious about it?


----------



## Verdict

CitizenPromaster said:


> Very interesting find, as until now we have only speculated on the subject.
> 
> So in my humble opinion, this page still doesn't answer your question "do you know if Citizen will polish or restore duratect alpha coated titanium cases?", but considering the Vickers hardness of 2,000 Hv - the same as sapphire - it is unlikely to need a complete restoration, so what makes you curious about it?


Wow I actually contributed something to this discussion that wasn't already discussed in over 50+ pages of this thread!

By the way, I also emailed Citizen through the contact form on their global website, and they were able to confirm that this service is not offered to overseas customers, and that case replacements are the way to go. They didn't specify that this service isn't available for overseas markets, but on the website, you can clearly see through Google Translate and it's available for Japanese customers.

To their credit - I sent out this email an hour or two ago, so that is some prompt customer service.










Now to answer your question, @CitizenPromaster, the reason why I'm interested in polishing services is because it makes buying used second-hand The Citizens even more attractive if you can get them polished to new condition. Can you guess which Japanese proxy bidding service I've been finding The Citizens on?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Verdict said:


> Wow I actually contributed something to this discussion that wasn't already discussed in over 50+ pages of this thread!
> 
> By the way, I also emailed Citizen through the contact form on their global website, and they were able to confirm that this service is not offered to overseas customers, and that case replacements are the way to go. They didn't specify that this service isn't available for overseas markets, but on the website, you can clearly see through Google Translate and it's available for Japanese customers.
> 
> To their credit - I sent out this email an hour or two ago, so that is some prompt customer service.
> 
> View attachment 16551464
> 
> 
> Now to answer your question, @CitizenPromaster, the reason why I'm interested in polishing services is because it makes buying used second-hand The Citizens even more attractive if you can get them polished to new condition. Can you guess which Japanese proxy bidding service I've been finding The Citizens on?


As @aafanatic can testify, if you ask US Citizen Service Centers (there are two) for a new bezel, they will offer you a new case (including a new bezel) for $500 or something crazy! And I don't think the Japanese polishing service will cost less for a Duratect watch, that's why I doubt if it makes buying used second-hand The Citizens even more attractive. It will probably be more "cost-effective" to pay more money for a used The Citizen in great condition, than to buy one in bad condition for less money and then pay for the polishing service?


----------



## Verdict

CitizenPromaster said:


> As @aafanatic can testify, if you ask US Citizen Service Centers (there are two) for a new bezel, they will offer you a new case (including a new bezel) for $500 or something crazy! And I don't think the Japanese polishing service will cost less for a Duratect watch, that's why I doubt if it makes buying used second-hand The Citizens even more attractive. It will probably be more "cost-effective" to pay more money for a used The Citizen in great condition, than to buy one in bad condition for less money and then pay for the polishing service?


That's exactly where I'm getting at - paying a bit more for one in good condition is a better option than trying to restore or polish one. Might work with regular stainless steel, but not Super Titanium.


----------



## martyloveswatches

Battle scars are part of the whole experience. I doubt these scratches are noticeable on such a hard surface so just wear it and enjoy. Or get another one in the meantime, spending too much for some doubtful refinish is not worthy imho


----------



## dgaddis

Y’all seen this? Love the story behind them, think they look great, but I’m worried the lug to lug will be longer than I prefer. 9000 series mechanical movement.









Introducing: Citizen Announces A Pair Of Vintage-Inspired Mechanical Dive Watches


An easy-to-love, back-to-basics skin diver from Citizen.




www.hodinkee.com


----------



## Verdict

dgaddis said:


> Y’all seen this? Love the story behind them, think they look great, but I’m worried the lug to lug will be longer than I prefer. 9000 series mechanical movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Introducing: Citizen Announces A Pair Of Vintage-Inspired Mechanical Dive Watches
> 
> 
> An easy-to-love, back-to-basics skin diver from Citizen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hodinkee.com


Yes - not interested in an automatic movement at the moment and dislike the mercedes hands.


----------



## bes-b2

dgaddis said:


> Y’all seen this? Love the story behind them, think they look great, but I’m worried the lug to lug will be longer than I prefer. 9000 series mechanical movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Introducing: Citizen Announces A Pair Of Vintage-Inspired Mechanical Dive Watches
> 
> 
> An easy-to-love, back-to-basics skin diver from Citizen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hodinkee.com


I'm very interested in the black dial..but curious if the blue dial on bracelet has the quick adjust clasp like my PMV65-2271. Also curious if these will be JDM only? I sent an email to Citizen USA customer service and they have yet to reply.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

bes-b2 said:


> I'm very interested in the black dial..but curious if the blue dial on bracelet has the quick adjust clasp like my PMV65-2271. Also curious if these will be JDM only? I sent an email to Citizen USA customer service and they have yet to reply.


It is not likely to get the fit adjuster clasp from the Sky and (some) Land models. I guess if anything it will get the diver extension clasp like other Marine models, which is a bit more crude.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Found this on the interwebz, AS4030-59E vs PMD56-2951


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Remember Duratect α? Well there have been a couple of Citizens (some of which are stainless steel) that have this surface treatment which is as hard as sapphire (Hv 2,200 - Hv 2,500) but as far as I'm aware there has only ever been 1 Duratect α + MRK watch, and that is the CC9000-51A, or as aafanatic calls it, the White Owl. Here are some pictures of 1 of the 1300 produced watches (for sale on Yahoo Auctions). They cost around 90,000 yen used, but they are not likely to have significant scratches even when used, since you don't often come across objects harder than Hv 2,200. The seller of this example says: "Since I used it occasionally, there are small scratches, but I think it is a beautiful product with no noticeable scratches or stains."
> 
> I don't think you will ever be able to get another used Duratect α Citizen for less than 100,000 yen (~ 1000 USD), because the other models are The Citizen, Eco-Drive One, Caliber 0100 etc.
> 
> View attachment 15473947
> 
> 
> View attachment 15473948
> 
> 
> View attachment 15473951
> 
> 
> Considering the hardness of Duratect α, I'm guessing it is some variant of titanium nitride (TiN).
> Wikipedia: "There are several commercially used variants of TiN that have been developed since 2010, such as titanium carbon nitride (TiCN), titanium aluminium nitride (TiAlN or AlTiN), and titanium aluminum carbon nitride, which may be used individually or in alternating layers with TiN. These coatings offer similar or superior enhancements in corrosion resistance and hardness, and additional colors ranging from light gray to nearly black, to a dark iridescent bluish-purple depending on the exact process of application."


NOS CC9000-51A on Yahoo Japan, starting bid 98k, buy-out 150k (if the photos don't load, reload the page).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> NOS CC9000-51A on Yahoo Japan, starting bid 98k, buy-out 150k (if the photos don't load, reload the page).


Not a single bid... No one wanted to pay 98k yen for a NOS Duratect α F900 GPS Citizen with MSRP of 240k (+ tax)???? Tough crowd!

So why didn't I? I don't buy watches over €500 out of principle, and I usually stay far below that. But for €740 - with todays Buyee exchange rate - this was GREAT value for money. With the Buyee exchange rate of December 2021 this would have cost €800!


----------



## martyloveswatches

CitizenPromaster said:


> Not a single bid... No one wanted to pay 98k yen for a Duratect α F900 GPS Citizen with MSRP of 240k (+ tax)???? Tough crowd!


Did you buy it? If not, I don't see a reason for your comment with 4 question marks


----------



## CitizenPromaster

martyloveswatches said:


> Did you buy it? If not, I don't see a reason for your comment with 4 question marks


I was already editing my post in anticipation of this question. See updated post.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Also, I have committed to collecting a certain family of Promaster Sky Pilot watches, so I've also never bought the F100 version of the above watch, even though I really like it and I can get that for around €300 these days. If I had made a different choice for my collection, I would have bought this F900 regardless of my principles.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

As much as I love the technology behind Duratect and the benefits it has over untreated titanium, I also really love how in bright sunlight on "bare" titanium (not polished or brushed) you can see the natural titanium oxide (TiO2) surface layer, with the crystal grains reflecting light in all colors of the rainbow (if you get close enough so your eye doesn't perceive one color). Why the colors are there I have explained in post #699.

It proved impossible for me to photograph the colors, but you can kind of see the crystral grains in this photo of my Citizen Reguno.


----------



## MarkKenyon

CitizenPromaster said:


> As much as I love the technology behind Duratect and the benefits it has over untreated titanium, I also really love how in bright sunlight on "bare" titanium (not polished or brushed) you can see the natural titanium oxide (TiO2) surface layer, with the crystal grains reflecting light in all colors of the rainbow (if you get close enough so your eye doesn't perceive one color). Why the colors are there I have explained in post #699.
> 
> It proved impossible for me to photograph the colors, but you can kind of see the crystral grains in this photo of my Citizen Reguno.
> View attachment 16584667


Awesome picture, you can definitely see the colors


----------



## MDT IT

Top watch


----------



## Triku

CitizenPromaster said:


> Found this on the interwebz, AS4030-59E vs PMD56-2951
> View attachment 16571082


My PMD56-2952 and my PMP56 -2912. Love both of theme.


----------



## Rojote




----------



## wongthian2

orangne zulu on Tough by toypoodleKimi, on Flickr


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Some random chunky Citizen titanium.


























And predecessor with different case code.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

MarkKenyon said:


> Awesome picture, you can definitely see the colors


This time in the evening light using digital zoom and adjusting to the brightest spot the colors came out much better, no need even to mess with the saturation or contrast.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Boo again! Just for the record, Citizen has used titanium alloys in the past. The above info (yellow) from the late 90s and this "new" info below from 2008 tells us those alloys were only used on Exceed models.
> 
> View attachment 15732511





CitizenPromaster said:


> To my surprise I found a titanium Promaster diver for sale that says "TITANIUM ALLOY" on the back.
> View attachment 16066285
> 
> View attachment 16066287
> 
> 
> I found it in the 1997 catalogue, and indeed it is described as TIA in stead of TI (with the GMC label).
> View attachment 16066292
> 
> This is very weird, because there are MANY titanium Promaster divers in the 1997 catalogue, and all of them are TI with GMC, so I have no clue why Citizen made an exception for this pair. They are not in the 1996 catalogue, so they are not "remnants" or anything like that, and no other Promaster divers in 1996 were TIA, they were all TI (with GMC). The blue symbol says "Fine Titanium", the titanium alloy that I discussed in the quoted post above.





CitizenPromaster said:


> Citizen develops all their surface treatments in-house as I've explained in this thread. Citizen has also used titanium alloys in the past, as I've discussed in post #617, #618 and #619, and these were called "fine titanium" (1.5 times harder than pure titanium, 280 ~ 320 Hv) and "hard fine titanium" (2.5 times harder than pure titanium, 400 ~ 450 Hv), but for some reason they abandoned the use of titanium alloys for Exceed models in favor of coatings like Duratect PTIC. Notice though that this "hard fine titanium" is almost as hard as DAT55G (2.5 times versus 3 times), and harder than grade 5 titanium (400 ~ 450 Hv versus 396 Hv).


I like collecting each type of titanium and/or surface treatment Citizen has had on offer - if I can afford it - so I bought one of these titanium alloy Promasters. After I bought it I discovered it was the ladies version, but that doesn't matter at all, since it is just a specimen.









There are still plenty of scratches, especially on the clasp, since it is only 1.5 times harder than pure titanium, but as you can see the polish still looks fine. This watch was obviously made with Metal Injection Molding (MIM).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Triku said:


> My PMD56-2952 and my PMP56 -2912. Love both of theme.


I didn't see the photo before for some reason. Anyway, nice pair!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I never stop researching Citizen's titanium history and Citizen's surface treatment history, and a while back I found an article by Citizen (in a Japanese watch industry journal) about Duratect Sakura Pink, and it contained the following paragraph (auto-translated):

*Citizen Watch Co., Ltd. (hereinafter referred to as "our company") started the development of ion plating as a next-generation surface treatment in 1972, and released a watch called "Mirador" coated with TiN in 1977. The concept of protecting watches was born from the above, and in 1999, we developed a surface hardening treatment using surface modification technology, and we named this concept "Duratect" 1,2). *

Elsewhere I found this bit of info (auto-translated):

*In 1976, the year after the release of the solid gold model Cal.8650A, the Mirador case (stainless steel with titanium nitride plated gold plating) had a corrosion resistance of 5 times that of Citizen's original exterior. *

Of course I was curious about this titanium nitride coated Mirador watch, and fortunately I have digital copies of some JDM catalogues, and I found the original Mirador watch from 1977.









The text in the top left says Mirador. There was also another IG (Ion-plated Gold color) watch in 1977.









I'm guessing the word Mirador means something like a golden (d'or) mirror finish? And a mirror finish it is, as evidenced by this 1981 Exceed with IG.









In 1978 a new Mirador watch came out.









I found photos of a worn example of above watch. I'm not sure if the IG was also on the bracelet on the 1978 version, because there is little coating left, so maybe the bracelet had something cheaper on it like other Citizen watches with a golden bracelet. In the catalogue the bracelet also has a different color on the 1978 version, while the color is uniform on the 1977 version. Perhaps the 1978 version had to be cheaper so they only made the case TiN?


























In 1979 there were also a few IG watches, and they were not cheap!









I was able to find and buy an example for my collection, and it arrived today.









So there we have it, the genesis of Duratect, titanium nitride ion-plated Citizen watches in the late 70s.








Drill bits eat your heart out!


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

CitizenPromaster said:


> I never stop researching Citizen's titanium history and Citizen's surface treatment history, and a while back I found an article by Citizen (in a Japanese watch industry journal) about Duratect Sakura Pink, and it contained the following paragraph (auto-translated):
> 
> ...


super quality post, thank you!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

These are the specs on Citizen Watch Europe's website for the BN0220-16E (Duratect MRK case and Duratect TIC bezel)









And these are for the BN0227-09L (Duratect MRK+DLC case and DLC bezel)








Like Citizen Italy, they can't even be bothered to specify the surface treatments on watches! Having MRK and DLC in this price range is unheard of, even for Citizen, and they don't even promote it outside of Japan


----------



## watch2seek

CitizenPromaster said:


> Like Citizen Italy, they can't even be bothered to specify the surface treatments on watches! Having MRK and DLC in this price range is unheard of, even for Citizen, and they don't even promote it outside of Japan


Do you know what grade titanium is used in the Citizen BN0200-56E? Admittedly, I did not read the whole thread, but I searched for mentions of BN0200 models specifically and did not find the information.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

watch2seek said:


> Do you know what grade titanium is used in the Citizen BN0200-56E? Admittedly, I did not read the whole thread, but I searched for mentions of BN0200 models specifically and did not find the information.


All titanium Citizens* are grade 1 titanium, which is pure titanium. Usually when nothing is specified beyond “Super Titanium”, the applied surface treatment to this grade 1 titanium is Duratect TIC, which is ion-plated titanium carbide. This is true for the BN0200-56E.

*with the exception of a few that I’ve described in this thread


----------



## watch2seek

CitizenPromaster said:


> All titanium Citizens* are grade 1 titanium, which is pure titanium. Usually when nothing is specified beyond “Super Titanium”, the applied surface treatment to this grade 1 titanium is Duratect TIC, which is ion-plated titanium carbide. This is true for the BN0200-56E.
> 
> *with the exception of a few that I’ve described in this thread


Thank you for explaining and for the huge amount of high quality information you've drawn into this thread. You anticipated my next question about the coating as well.

At the risk of introducing more redundancy into this thread, do the various Citizen coatings eliminate titanium's tendency to gall?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

watch2seek said:


> Thank you for explaining and for the huge amount of high quality information you've drawn into this thread. You anticipated my next question about the coating as well.
> 
> At the risk of introducing more redundancy into this thread, do the various Citizen coatings eliminate titanium's tendency to gall?


I take it you mean this gall:
“*Galling* is a form of wear caused by adhesion between sliding surfaces. When a material galls, some of it is pulled with the contacting surface, especially if there is a large amount of force compressing the surfaces together. Galling is caused by a combination of friction and adhesionbetween the surfaces, followed by slipping and tearing of crystal structurebeneath the surface. This will generally leave some material stuck or even friction welded to the adjacent surface, whereas the galled material may appear gouged with balled-up or torn lumps of material stuck to its surface.”

Obviously a titanium watch will not gall on your wrist, but of course the coatings can rub off from contact with hard surfaces like a desk (or the inside of the clasp rubbing against the inside of a link). If surface treatments reduce galling of titanium in industrial applications, I am not qualified to say, but I imagine so.


----------



## watch2seek

CitizenPromaster said:


> I take it you mean this gall:
> “*Galling* is a form of wear caused by adhesion between sliding surfaces. When a material galls, some of it is pulled with the contacting surface, especially if there is a large amount of force compressing the surfaces together. Galling is caused by a combination of friction and adhesionbetween the surfaces, followed by slipping and tearing of crystal structurebeneath the surface. This will generally leave some material stuck or even friction welded to the adjacent surface, whereas the galled material may appear gouged with balled-up or torn lumps of material stuck to its surface.”
> 
> Obviously a titanium watch will not gall on your wrist, but of course the coatings can rub off from contact with hard surfaces like a desk (or the inside of the clasp rubbing against the inside of a link). If surface treatments reduce galling of titanium in industrial applications, I am not qualified to say, but I imagine so.


Thank you for clarifying. You're right, I did mean that sort of galling. I am concerned about galling at the threads of the crown and case back. I read a post on another thread that stated that titanium watches should be taken to an experienced watchmaker because of the risk of galling.

Here's a link to that post: Downfalls of Titanium?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

watch2seek said:


> Thank you for clarifying. You're right, I did mean that sort of galling. I am concerned about galling at the threads of the crown and case back. I read a post on another thread that stated that titanium watches should be taken to an experienced watchmaker because of the risk of galling.
> 
> Here's a link to that post: Downfalls of Titanium?


OK, I see where you are coming from now. I'm sure there is validity to what that watchmaker is saying, but I have not heard anyone discuss such issues with regards to a modern Citizen, for which there might be a few reasons:
1) most modern titanium Citizens are Eco-Drive and the caseback never gets opened, besides it is usually a snap-off caseback anyway
2) most modern titanium Citizens don't have a screw-down crown, and if it does, it might have a perpetual calender and/or be radio-controlled, so you rarely have to unscrew the crown
3) most modern titanium Citizens are quartz, so even if it has a screw-down crown and no perpetual calender, you don't mess with the time except for DST.

So that leaves a few automatic dive watches that potentially might have issues, if they are not prevented by the surface treatments in the first place.

As for issues when refinishing, that is typically not done on titanium Citizens, as has been discussed in this thread on several occasions.


----------



## watch2seek

CitizenPromaster said:


> OK, I see where you are coming from now. I'm sure there is validity to what that watchmaker is saying, but I have not heard anyone discuss such issues with regards to a modern Citizen, for which there might be a few reasons:
> 1) most modern titanium Citizens are Eco-Drive and the caseback never gets opened, besides it is usually a snap-off caseback anyway
> 2) most modern titanium Citizens don't have a screw-down crown, and if it does, it might have a perpetual calender and/or be radio-controlled, so you rarely have to unscrew the crown
> 3) most modern titanium Citizens are quartz, so even if it has a screw-down crown and no perpetual calender, you don't mess with the time except for DST.
> 
> So that leaves a few automatic dive watches that potentially might have issues, if they are not prevented by the surface treatments in the first place.
> 
> As for issues when refinishing, that is typically not done on titanium Citizens, as has been discussed in this thread on several occasions.


Thank you for giving some likely reasons why you haven't heard any reports of galling in modern citizens. Looking at my BN0200-56E, it seems that the crown and the threads onto which it screws may be steel. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

watch2seek said:


> Thank you for giving some likely reasons why you haven't heard any reports of galling in modern citizens. Looking at my BN0200-56E, it seems that the crown and the threads onto which it screws may be steel. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.


You are welcome.

What makes you suspect the crown and threads are stainless steel?

I have a vintage titanium Citizen dive watch from 1989. The crown looks titanium to me, but if I take my jeweler's loupe and look at the threads, it does seem to be a seperate piece from the titanium case, and it does look like it could be stainless. I also notice with the loupe some damage to the bottom side of the case where the crown meets the case when it is screwed in, but I don't know if that counts as galling or simply as wear.

I always imagined screw-down crowns/threads have a limited life time anyway, especially if you "overtorque" them with your fingers.

@Lepdiggums has many (vintage) titanium divers, maybe he has some experiences/insights to share?


----------



## journeyforce

Well last week an AT6080 arrived. 3 days later I was waving it goodbye as it was leaving in the postal service truck.

the other day I noticed a Citizen GPS watch auction i was watching ended. The watch was relisted at a buy it now at a good price. So i bought it. When all is said and done, i am into this watch for under $300 shipped which is a good price for a nice looking Satellite Wave that is made of Ti. It is model CC3010-51E (F150). We folks in the USA had a version of this dial style called the CC3005-xx but that had the easy to scratch city ring on the bezel and was 23mm and was stainless steel. This watch is a 22mm lugged watch so I can use most any 22mm strap.

I might be even able to use it on the bracelet as it has 15 total links and a complete bracelet on this model is 17 links. I normally remove 2 links out of every Citizen watch to be able to wear it so I might be good to go. But if not then the strap beckons.

Seller pic. I hope to see it next week


----------



## watch2seek

CitizenPromaster said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> What makes you suspect the crown and threads are stainless steel?
> 
> I have a vintage titanium Citizen dive watch from 1989. The crown looks titanium to me, but if I take my jeweler's loupe and look at the threads, it does seem to be a seperate piece from the titanium case, and it does look like it could be stainless. I also notice with the loupe some damage to the bottom side of the case where the crown meets the case when it is screwed in, but I don't know if that counts as galling or simply as wear.
> 
> I always imagined screw-down crowns/threads have a limited life time anyway, especially if you "overtorque" them with your fingers.
> 
> @Lepdiggums has many (vintage) titanium divers, maybe he has some experiences/insights to share?


I suspect the threaded peice the crown screws onto is stainless because similar to you, I think I see that it is a separate piece of metal pressed into the case. It and the crown also have a shine that looks like steel. Although, I know titanium can be polished to a high shine. Additionally, given the risk of galling I think it would make sense to use steel. I think the crown stem is probably steel given that it is of such narrow caliber and required to be strong. All in all, it just seems like it may be steel, but I have no strong evidence.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The Japanese went crazy over this.


----------



## Amin Sabet

I haven’t read all 59 pages here but was wondering if anyone can tell me whether my BU0060-68E could actually have MRK even though the product page only says TIC. I’m asking this based on the first page of this thread and the fact that my watch is a JDM model with “DURATECT” stamped on the caseback and appears to be darker than some other TIC models I have seen.

























Pop


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Amin Sabet said:


> I haven’t read all 59 pages here but was wondering if anyone can tell me whether my BU0060-68E could actually have MRK even though the product page only says TIC. I’m asking this based on the first page of this thread and the fact that my watch is a JDM model with “DURATECT” stamped on the caseback and appears to be darker than some other TIC models I have seen.
> 
> View attachment 16661346
> 
> 
> View attachment 16661347
> 
> View attachment 16661345
> Pop


The answer to your question is not on any of the pages, but there have only ever been three Attesa models with Duratect MRK*, as part of a Frozen Grey series in 2018.









「シチズン アテッサ」　シチズン独自の表面硬化技術デュラテクトＭＲＫを施した「フローズングレー限定モデル」を2018年5月10日に発売 | シチズンウオッチ　オフィシャルサイト ［CITIZEN-シチズン］

*There was also an Attesa with MRK + DLC that was discussed in post #315 of this thread.


----------



## Amin Sabet

Thanks, that helps a lot. I found the news announcement link for my watch. I’m sure it would have specified MRK if it had that.






『シチズン アテッサ』トリプルカレンダーとムーンフェイズを搭載　奥行きのある多層文字板の新作が登場　2022年1月下旬発売 | シチズンウオッチ　オフィシャルサイト ［CITIZEN-シチズン］


CITIZEN-シチズン時計株式会社オフィシャルサイト『シチズン アテッサ』トリプルカレンダーとムーンフェイズを搭載　奥行きのある多層文字板の新作が登場　2022年1月下旬発売のページです。シチズンの腕時計についてご紹介しています。




citizen.jp


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Amin Sabet said:


> Thanks, that helps a lot. I found the news announcement link for my watch. I’m sure it would have specified MRK if it had that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 『シチズン アテッサ』トリプルカレンダーとムーンフェイズを搭載　奥行きのある多層文字板の新作が登場　2022年1月下旬発売 | シチズンウオッチ　オフィシャルサイト ［CITIZEN-シチズン］
> 
> 
> CITIZEN-シチズン時計株式会社オフィシャルサイト『シチズン アテッサ』トリプルカレンダーとムーンフェイズを搭載　奥行きのある多層文字板の新作が登場　2022年1月下旬発売のページです。シチズンの腕時計についてご紹介しています。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> citizen.jp


I have written more posts than is healthy on the color difference between TIC and MRK, inventing the Nobel Prize-winning Color Math™ in the process. It is not so much darker, but a different tone, which you could call champagne or bronze. But MRK is also less reflective, so it can appear darker in that sense.

However, there is indeed color difference between TIC watches, and oftentimes even between the lugs (as part of the case) and the bracelet on the same watch, as can be seen on below TIC watch, but not at all angles. The first factor in this is the specific finish, polished versus brushed, but also exactly how polished or how brushed. On top of that, I think the ion-plating for Duratect TIC is a slightly variable process - if not per batch then through the years - and that might also give slight color differences between TIC watches.


















I've touched on this before in post #660, where I show two AS4050-51Es, one from 2007 next to one from 2008, looking completely different, probably mostly due to very different brushing, and the one from 2008 next to one from 2019, which look pretty similar in the photo, but looked quite different in real life, probably mostly due to variations in the ion-plating:



CitizenPromaster said:


> The picture I posted in WRUW actually captures the shininess of the 2007 TIC watch quite well (left).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't take proper comparison shots back then, but my 2019 AS4050-51E was noticeably brighter than my 2008, but I don't think it was shinier, just lighter in color. I wrote at the time:
> "I actually noticed that the black parts on the dial have faded slightly, probably from 12 years of sunshine (thought I haven't really worn it the last 5 years), but it seems that the Duratect TIC has also somewhat aged. It has become slightly darker, assuming they started out the same color."
> Now I'm thinking they probably didn't start out the same color, and that the polishing, brushing and ion-plating can produce many different outcomes for TIC. And probably for MRK and DLC too. My two PMP56-2933's also have a slight color difference. The fact that the Vickers Hardness is given in ranges already indicates that differences can occur in the surface treatment, and I imagine the same is true for polishing and brushing.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Since this thread has been revived, and inspired by above combined pic of the first Attesa and the first titanium Citizen, I want to take this opportunity to link to an article from Sweephand about that first titanium Citizen: This Week's Featured Watch #56 - the X8 Titanium Chronometer
> 
> He has only ever seen one come up for sale, and where it retailed originally (only 2000 pieces) for 45,000 yen, in 2011 it sold at auction for 163,000 yen: Japanese Auctions


Since the last one sold (that I know of), Citizen has featured the first titanium watch, the X8 Chronometer, in many marketing campaigns, like for the 50th Anniversary of Titanium Technology. As a result of this, many more people know about the existence of this watch and the historic value it has, so when another one came up for sale three days ago, the bidding soon took off and instead of reaching 163,000 yen, it reached 573,430 yen, which is vintage 500m Chrono Master money, so it is now one of the most expensive vintage Citizens out there!


----------



## sky21

CitizenPromaster said:


> Since the last one sold (that I know of), Citizen has featured the first titanium watch, the X8 Chronometer, in many marketing campaigns, like for the 50th Anniversary of Titanium Technology. As a result of this, many more people know about the existence of this watch and the historic value it has, so when another one came up for sale three days ago, the bidding soon took off and instead of reaching 163,000 yen, it reached 573,430 yen, which is vintage 500m Chrono Master money, so it is now one of the most expensive vintage Citizens out there!
> 
> View attachment 16664532


So what is the increase in value on that since 2011?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

sky21 said:


> So what is the increase in value on that since 2011?


Use the E6B on your JY to calculate!


----------



## Chuck Gladfelter

watch2seek said:


> Thank you for giving some likely reasons why you haven't heard any reports of galling in modern citizens. Looking at my BN0200-56E, it seems that the crown and the threads onto which it screws may be steel. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.


BN0200-05X – ELI ADAMS JEWELERS I have both and took the bracelet from the black one and put it on the orange. The orange one is really nice IMO.


----------



## Amin Reviews

CitizenPromaster said:


> So my prediction, worldwide markets will increasingly be able to get Duratect MRK watches without buying from Japan, but not for less than a grand!


When you look at the price premium that IWC charges for their Ceratanium (gas diffusion-hardened titanium), MRK seems like an incredible bargain.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Amin Reviews said:


> When you look at the price premium that IWC charges for their Ceratanium (gas diffusion-hardened titanium), MRK seems like an incredible bargain.


Certainly, and my prediction turned out to be pessimistic even, because we now have several watches with MRK under €1000. The NB6004-08E has an MSRP of €695 in Europe, but can be bought new for €595, the bracelet version NB6004-83E has an MSRP of €795 but can be bought new for €649, and the BN0220-16E has an MSRP of €399 in Europe, and can be had new for as little as €360.

And then there is the MRK + DLC AT8195-85L with an MSRP of €895, which is sold for around €760 by some webshops.

Speaking of discounts, there hardly ever used to be a discount on MSRP in The Netherlands for Citizens, but some webshops have started doing this in recent times, and others are forced to follow or they won't sell their stock. Hence the MRK BN0220-16E and its MRK + DLC siblings (BN0227-09L and BN0228-06W) can be had for around €360.


----------



## Amin Reviews

I recently ordered my first Duratect alpha watch, an AQ4090-59E. So excited for that one. Now have my eye on one of the MRK Promasters you mentioned.


----------



## VincentG

This should be dropping any day now


----------



## TAHAWK

Wonderful collection of information, but sellers do not seems to describe the Ti on a given watch with anything more than generic terms.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Speaking of amazingly preserved watches, I was almost more excited about getting this milestone Citizen titanium watch, the 1987 Attesa, the very first Attesa.
> 
> View attachment 15914948
> 
> 
> The scratches you see are pretty much only visible from this angle, and other than some desk diving scuffs at the bottom of the very special bracelet with butterfly clasp it looks great. That means I somehow landed a better looking example than the designer of this watch is holding in below photo, which I assume is his personal watch!
> 
> View attachment 15914955
> 
> 
> My example is one or two links short of fitting on my wrist, but good luck finding those! I'm going to put it in a nice see-through case and cherish it as the museum piece it is.
> 
> As for the design, I think it is very likely that the designer was inspired by the IWC Porsche Design Ocean 2000 from 1982, but he simplified the design even more as it didn't have to be a dive watch.
> 
> View attachment 15914960
> 
> 
> The original Ocean 2000 has unique "pinless" bracelet links, of which there were two variants, then they switched to visible pins. More info here.
> View attachment 15914982
> 
> 
> The Attesa also has unique links, but I don't know how to describe them. The inside of the bracelet looks like this. The bracelet is not very flexible because of this construction.
> 
> View attachment 15914971
> 
> 
> It would be nice to have a 1982 Ocean 2000 next to my 1987 Attesa, but those are way outside of my budget, even if they are undervalued ;-)


The "first Attesa" is rare enough, but at some point I found some photos of a version with a black dial and golden hands, but the same case code.








When I found the ladies' version of this watch for sale, I bought it immediately and while waiting for it to arrive, I consulted @Lepdiggums but he couldn't find it anywhere in his JDM catalogs, which puzzled us. Some time later I didn't zoom in on an unrelated thumbnail photo and I misread something, and it occured to 'ol Lep to have a closer look at the dial of the black "Attesa", and he noticed it doesn't say Attesa! Which explains why it isn't in the JDM catalogs, it is an export version of a JDM watch, which in itself is a rare occasion for Attesa back in the 80s and even now.

Well this week it arrived, and it is a lovely little miniature of the men's version.









I will pick up a ladies' version of the Attesa too if I can find one for cheap (which is not very likely), so I have the full set.


----------



## Amin Sabet

My AQ4090-59E is here. Wish I knew more about Duratect alpha, like how thick it is. Love the watch!
View attachment 16673208


----------



## sky21

Amin Sabet said:


> My AQ4090-59E is here. Wish I knew more about Duratect alpha, like how thick it is. Love the watch!
> View attachment 16673208


I can’t see your attached photo, maybe it’s a problem on my end, but glad you like it as it’s an amazing watch for sure!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Amin Sabet said:


> My AQ4090-59E is here. Wish I knew more about Duratect alpha, like how thick it is. Love the watch!
> View attachment 16673208


Ion-plated coatings are only a couple of micron thick (1 micron = 0.001 mm).


----------



## aafanatic

I like nice coatings. (both limited to 500)

F990


F100


----------



## CitizenPromaster

In the past Citizen sold some funky titanium watches in Europe...


----------



## Mark.O

Cool!


----------



## pajak.tomasz98

CitizenPromaster said:


> This forum is littered with threads on the subject, but they usually are not very enlightening. Attempts have been made at an overview, but that hasn't stopped the question from reappearing. Hopefully this thread will change all that!
> 
> In this first post I will list interesting previous discussions and notable quotes. Later on I will adress some common misconceptions (like scratch resistance does not equal scratch proof) and discuss the past and present of Citizen titanium.
> 
> From: Duratec/t? Bright/z? Diashield/DLC?
> 
> 
> From: Seiko Dia-Shield vs. Citizen Dura-Tec
> 
> 
> Also interesting, though full of erroneous views: Differences between Citizen PMV65-2271 and JY8020-52E
> 
> Some user experience: Truth and Myth About DLC, Duratech and High Tech Diamond...
> 
> All details about the different Citizen surface treatments can be found in later posts.


What about Super Titanium Duratect STC? There is no mention about that. Is this a new method or something like that? I want to buy a watch with this coating but i know nothing about it's durability.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

pajak.tomasz98 said:


> What about Super Titanium Duratect STC? There is no mention about that. Is this a new method or something like that? I want to buy a watch with this coating but i know nothing about it's durability.





CitizenPromaster said:


> I noticed something while browsing the German page of Citizen Europe GmbH. The titanium models are listed as both Duratect STC and Super Titanium. STC = Surface Treated Coating. So just the regular Duratect = Super Titanium.


There are a handful of watches that Citizen Watch Europe uses this description for, I have no reason to believe it is something other than Duratect TIC. Why they even invented this "Duratect STC" term, I have no idea.


----------



## pajak.tomasz98

CitizenPromaster said:


> There are a handful of watches that Citizen Watch Europe uses this description for, I have no reason to believe it is something other than Duratect TIC. Why they even invented this "Duratect STC" term, I have no idea.


Is this Duratect TIC any good in terms of scratch resisting? Sorry but i don't have these amount of time to read 60 pages to find out


----------



## CitizenPromaster

pajak.tomasz98 said:


> Is this Duratect TIC any good in terms of scratch resisting? Sorry but i don't have these amount of time to read 60 pages to find out


That depends on who you ask. If you ask Citizen, it is 5x more scratch resistant than stainless steel. If you ask other people, it is useless. Most people who are somewhat careful with their watch are very pleased with Duratect TIC though. But it will surely scratch over the years, especially if you rub it on a desk all the time. There are many photos of used Duratect TIC watches in this thread, those provide more useful evidence about wear/scratches than any testimony you might get from me or anyone else on this forum. But if you are in doubt and buying this watch is a lot of money to you, maybe don't do it, or first invest the time to read this thread. 
You can also use the search function to narrow it down somewhat (search for "Duratect TIC" obviously). Beware though, I also like to post abused Duratect TIC watches, that look MUCH more scratched up than 95% of people can expect to happen.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

pajak.tomasz98 said:


> Hello, firstly i want to apologize for my mediocre english, because I am from Poland.
> 
> I want to buy my first watch and I fell in love with this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EW2470-87L – Citizen Watch Europe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.citizenwatch.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's perfect for me, but i have one issue with that. I heard that some of Super Titanium watches scratches badly and some of them are almost perfectly scratch resistant.
> This one has "Super Titanium, Duratect STC". The only thing i know is that STC = Surface Treated Coating. I have no idea if this watch will scrates easly or not. Does anyone has a watch with this coating and can tell me something about it?
> 
> Thank you for your help.





SethThomas said:


> I have 2, Neither have any significant scratches in 4+ years.
> 
> View attachment 16677730
> 
> 
> View attachment 16677732





pajak.tomasz98 said:


> Do you know what type of Duratect is this? These watches looks expensive and the watch that i want to buy is definitely cheaper. I am afraid, that these coatings can be different.





SethThomas said:


> It's a Citizen AQ 4020–54Y. Washi Paper Dial Chronomaster. Got it for $2200 new before watch prices blew up.





SethThomas said:


> *It just says Duratect on the back of the watch. I doubt they would invest much into different grades of treatment. Most cost effective to have 1 treatment.*


Me when reading this:


----------



## pajak.tomasz98

CitizenPromaster said:


> That depends on who you ask. If you ask Citizen, it is 5x more scratch resistant than stainless steel. If you ask other people, it is useless. Most people who are somewhat careful with their watch are very pleased with Duratect TIC though. But it will surely scratch over the years, especially if you rub it on a desk all the time. There are many photos of used Duratect TIC watches in this thread, those provide more useful evidence about wear/scratches than any testimony you might get from me or anyone else on this forum. But if you are in doubt and buying this watch is a lot of money to you, maybe don't do it, or first invest the time to read this thread.
> You can also use the search function to narrow it down somewhat (search for "Duratect TIC" obviously). Beware though, I also like to post abused Duratect TIC watches, that look MUCH more scratched up than 95% of people can expect to happen.


Okay, i read about it more. So it looks like Duratect TIC is pretty bad at scratch resisting comparing to other variants of Duratect but still comparable to SS. This coating is used mainly for decorative purposes. I get that right? In my situation i thing getting SS watch is better solution, because i can simply repolish it after a few years.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

pajak.tomasz98 said:


> Okay, i read about it more. So it looks like Duratect TIC is pretty bad at scratch resisting comparing to other variants of Duratect but still comparable to SS. This coating is used mainly for decorative purposes. I get that right? In my situation i thing getting SS watch is better solution, because i can simply repolish it after a few years.


If you don't like or want an extra light weight watch, then sure, go with SS.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Me when reading this:
> View attachment 16678593


To clarify, I'm not blaming anyone for a lack of knowledge, I'm just amazed that he was able to buy a The Citizen and an Eco-Drive One without being aware of the superior coatings that Citizen offers on these models. Or as I wrote to him in the source thread:

_I wasn't mocking you and I certainly don't expect everyone to know or care about Citizen and it's surface treatments, I was merely expressing my amazement that someone who has bought premium Citizens has no awareness of - and maybe limited interest in - the superior coatings Citizen uses for many The Citizens and Eco-Drive Ones, when it is part of why they are so expensive compared to their regular offerings. It is true though that Citizen doesn't put a lot of effort in spreading the word about their top tier surface treatments, perhaps they don't want to upset people buying watches with the lower tier surface treatments and make them feel like they are not getting the best there is.

However, I do frown when you say that having one surface treatment is the most cost effective. That is like stating that is the most cost effective for Volkswagen to have only 1 liter petrol engines. People buying an expensive Volkswagen want a V6 or at least a 2 liter inline 4 with turbo, and people buying a Lamborghini (also part of Volkswagen) want a V12. And people buying a Volkswagen van want a diesel engine. Obviously there are more factors to consider than cost effectiveness, and on top of that, Citizen can also recover R&D investments by selling their surface treatment technologies to third parties, because these coatings have more applications than watches, as CADirk pointed out._

CADirk mentioned that "TIC/Titanium Carbide coatings are a little more than just decorative, it's an industrial grade coating for machine parts to prevent/slow down abrasion in machining tools."

Thinking about the lack of promotion by Citizen some more, I think there might be another reason that they don't promote it so heavily. Maybe Citizen just wants to deliver the best product they can in the different price brackets, and they don't care if the customer knows about Duratect PTIC or Duratect α, as long as the premium buyer experiences a good looking and scratch resistant product. So perhaps it is modesty on Citizen's part?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Limited Edition (500) titanium Tsuno Challenge Timer from 2004.

























































List price 100,000 [Limited to 500 Citizen Tsuno Chronograph Reprint Challenge Timer Titanium Watch] Beauty / 【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


----------



## aafanatic

Still loving this Duratect DLC CC7015-55E


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Igorek said:


> New Attesa limited edition...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> シチズンウオッチ オフィシャルサイト
> 
> 
> CITIZEN-シチズン腕時計 オフィシャルサイトです。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> citizen.jp


Oh my lord, Citizen embraced crystallized titanium!!!! (as previously used by Zelos and Casio)
Auto-translated:
_The second collaboration model between "ATTESA", which celebrated the 35th anniversary of the brand, and "HAKUTO-R", a private lunar exploration program. The band and bezel are equipped with a new technology, "Crystal Titanium," which reproduces crystallization from the bonds of non-uniform composition by heat-treating titanium at a higher temperature than usual and cooling it again. It is a special design that does not exist as one. The pattern that makes it look as if the moon surface was copied from various angles is reminiscent of the HAKUTO-R mission that is about to begin. The image of crystals is also expressed on the base of the dial. The connection from the band and bezel brings a sense of unity to the design. On the back lid, an exploded view image of the lander equipped with Super Titanium ™ is laid out as a proof of collaboration. It is a special specification that colors the 35th anniversary of the brand._

The photos:





















































Here is the Zelos, of which only 40 were made.










Fratello took some nice photos: ►► Hands-On Review: Zelos Swordfish 40 In Crystallized Titanium (2021) (fratellowatches.com)

And here is the Casio MR-G with a crystallized titanium bezel:








Casio says: _Recrystallized titanium is used for the bezel to represent the tiny crystals, or nie, seen in the hamon of Japanese swords._
MRGB2000R-1A | CASIO

Unfortunately all three are way above my preferred watch budget, but my choice would be the Zelos as it has nice coarse crystals like galvanized steel (which I have always loved the look of). The DLC on the Attesa makes the pattern less distinct, which is a shame.

Here is some galvanized (zinc-coated) steel for you.









It can have super coarse crystals.









I look forward to seeing more crystallized titanium watches in the future. You can even anodize it to get things like this. People make rings from this.

















One more example because it is so lovely. 610 usd for this bar stock!


----------



## Lepdiggums

That's some crazy technology @CitizenPromaster. Thank-you for all your work in this thread, just awesome!!!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Here's a TINS Citizen from the Sporte days, that's the old TIN and the S denotes the stainless steel bezel insert if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> View attachment 15775819
> 
> View attachment 15775821
> 
> View attachment 15775822
> 
> View attachment 15775824
> 
> 
> View attachment 15775834
> 
> 
> The BT one is "black chrome plated and teflon coated".


I finally got my hands on a BT watch.










The case says BASE METAL BT, so that is "black chrome plated and teflon coated", but the bracelet says BASE STAINLESS BP, which according to the Citizen glossary in the JDM catalog that features my watch means "Black plating is plating using black rhodium. The surface hardness is 3 times that of stainless steel." Three times harder, so 600 Hv?

Or perhaps in this case the BP refers to BT without teflon, but no such thing is mentioned in the catalog, whilst BP is, and some watches have a BP case, so I have to assume that on my watch they used something different for the case and the bracelet for whatever reason, even though it seems odd to use different black coatings for the case and bracelet on the same watch. Why not everything BT, or everything BP? But if the BP on the bracelet means BT without teflon, why no teflon on the bracelet? So I have to go with BT and BP as described by the catalog glossary.

Both the BT (probably chromium carbide [Cr3C2] and then the telfon) and the BP (some type of rhodium) show wear, but they don't seem to perform worse than modern black IP, which might also be chromium carbide, as discussed in post #441. Whatever it is, Citizen rates the modern black IP at 350 to 700 Hv as my JDM dealer display revealed (post #1,082).

These black coatings are not as shiny as the modern black IP, but I can't say if that is due to the coating (process) or due to the (lack of) polishing on the base metal. Either way, I am very happy with this one and will buy more BT watches if the price is right.


----------



## Xerxes300

Does this count?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Xerxes300 said:


> Does this count?


Is that a rhetorical question?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Or perhaps in this case the BP refers to BT without teflon, but no such thing is mentioned in the catalog, whilst BP is, *and some watches have a BP case*, so I have to assume that on my watch they used something different for the case and the bracelet for whatever reason, even though it seems odd to use different black coatings for the case and bracelet on the same watch. Why not everything BT, or everything BP? But if the BP on the bracelet means BT without teflon, why no teflon on the bracelet? So I have to go with BT and BP as described by the catalog glossary.
> 
> Both the BT (probably chromium carbide [Cr3C2] and then the telfon) and the BP (some type of rhodium) show wear, but they don't seem to perform worse than modern black IP, which might also be chromium carbide, as discussed in post #441. Whatever it is, Citizen rates the modern black IP at 350 to 700 Hv as my JDM dealer display revealed (post #1,082).
> 
> These black coatings are not as shiny as the modern black IP, but I can't say if that is due to the coating (process) or due to the (lack of) polishing on the base metal. Either way, I am very happy with this one and will buy more BT watches if the price is right.


This is said BP watch. Interestingly, the other versions of this watch were "gold plated" (YP) or "palladium or white gold plated" (WP), so the black rhodium (BP) was meant as a precious metal finish. It doesn't seem to have protected the base metal (brass?) very well though.
















So I guess Citizen didn't want the bracelet on my sports watch to end up looking like above, or maybe the black chrome is more likely to cause skin allergy, so they picked stainless + black rhodium for the bracelet, and base metal + black chrome + teflon for the case with a stainless caseback to further reduce contact dermatitis (as is often seen on base metal Citizen watches).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

It's been a while since I posted some DLC abuse. This is a limited edition Attesa (500 pieces).
Citizen Attesa ATV53-2835 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
FS: Citizen Attesta Jetsettter ATV53-2835 Limited Edition...Extremely Rare!!!! | WatchUSeek Watch Forums


































































The seller is asking 39,500 yen, I guess he considers it art?


----------



## Gl3nS1m0n

CitizenPromaster said:


> It's been a while since I posted some DLC abuse. This is a limited edition Attesa (500 pieces).
> Citizen Attesa ATV53-2835 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> FS: Citizen Attesta Jetsettter ATV53-2835 Limited Edition...Extremely Rare!!!! | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> 
> The seller is asking 39,500 yen, I guess he considers it art?


 so this is what they mean when they say "wear it in good health"


----------



## Rocket1991




----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> The "first Attesa" is rare enough, but at some point I found some photos of a version with a black dial and golden hands, but the same case code.
> View attachment 16673138
> 
> When I found the ladies' version of this watch for sale, I bought it immediately and while waiting for it to arrive, I consulted @Lepdiggums but he couldn't find it anywhere in his JDM catalogs, which puzzled us. Some time later I didn't zoom in on an unrelated thumbnail photo and I misread something, and it occured to 'ol Lep to have a closer look at the dial of the black "Attesa", and he noticed it doesn't say Attesa! Which explains why it isn't in the JDM catalogs, it is an export version of a JDM watch, which in itself is a rare occasion for Attesa back in the 80s and even now.
> 
> Well this week it arrived, and it is a lovely little miniature of the men's version.
> View attachment 16673149
> 
> 
> I will pick up a ladies' version of the Attesa too if I can find one for cheap (which is not very likely), so I have the full set.
> View attachment 16673195


I found the men's version of the export version in Germany, so I bought it of course. I don't think it has a sapphire crystal like the Attesa version, since the crystal is damaged.


----------



## Terra Citizen

This was my first watch, the one that started it all for me, a Titanium Citizen with a J810 movement that I purchased about a decade ago. I am a mountain biker and have an affinity towards anything titanium but the addition of Eco-Drive and sapphire made this purchase a no-brainer:


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I'm not sure what to make of this "Ceramic & Titanium" ladies watch. It says so on the dial and the caseback. I think the outer bezel is ceramic, as it has no scratches unlike the inner bezel.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I usually don't discuss other brands in this thread for obvious reasons, but I will make an exception, as the watch from this microbrand reminds me of certain Citizens (a mix of Promaster and Attesa) and on top of that, they claim to use a surface treatment that sounds to me like they get Citizen Coating Service to coat their watches in Duratect TIC (like on the model below) or DLC (optional).


I will make another exception today, because I noticed something on Rafael Nadels wrist during the Wimbledon tennis game today. It kind of looked like a Richard Mille, and it is, but I figured it had to be special to withstand a tennis game, and it is. It is only 30 grams including the strap, because of the "TitaCarb" case, and the watch can withstand 12,000 G apparently. I'll leave the suspended tourbillon stuff for you guys to read elsewhere, I just want to touch on the TitaCarb some more, so I will quote RM on the materials used in this watch.

"The baseplate and bridges are crafted from grade 5 titanium, a biocompatible, highly corrosion-resistant and remarkably rigid alloy, which guarantees the perfect functioning of the gear train.

The alloy is 90% titanium, 6% aluminium and 4% vanadium. The use of grade 5 titanium combined with a black PVD treatment lends the whole assembly great rigidity, as well as precise surface flatness. This combination enhances the alloy’s mechanical properties, which explains why it is frequently used in the aerospace, aeronautics and automobile industries.
(...)
The case is made from a brand new material exclusive to Richard Mille: TitaCarb®. It is a high-performance polyamide that has been reinforced with up to 38.5% carbon fibre by the teams at Richard Mille and at its loyal partner, Biwi SA. Thanks to this injection of carbon, TitaCarb® offers an exceptional tensile strength of 370 MPa, (3,700 kg/cm2).

In addition to its elevated fracture resistance – which is close to that of steel – this material, used in the most demanding industries, is ideal for machining the components of this case. Its solidity and rigidity, coupled with its low thermal expansion coefficient and high resistance to humidity and temperature make it the ideal material for meeting the specifications of a watch intended to venture out on court with Rafael Nadal."

I usually don't care for exotic million dollar watches like this RM (and exotic multi-million dollar cars like those from Koenigsegg, perhaps because I'm a jealous pauper), but I must say this watch is very impressive.










More: RM 27-04 : Watch Manual Winding Tourbillon Rafael Nadal | RICHARD MILLE


----------



## TAHAWK

CitizenPromaster said:


> It's been a while since I posted some DLC abuse. This is a limited edition Attesa (500 pieces).
> Citizen Attesa ATV53-2835 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> FS: Citizen Attesta Jetsettter ATV53-2835 Limited Edition...Extremely Rare!!!! | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> 
> View attachment 16705622
> 
> View attachment 16705623
> 
> View attachment 16705624
> 
> View attachment 16705625
> 
> View attachment 16705626
> 
> View attachment 16705627
> 
> View attachment 16705629
> 
> View attachment 16705630
> 
> 
> The seller is asking 39,500 yen, I guess he considers it art?


Perhaps "Arthur" when new but reduced to "Art" now.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

My buddy @Lepdiggums came out of the closet with his rare early titanium Citizens.
citizen's members, let's see your citizen | Page 340 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
This model is the second titanium Citizen to be released onto the market, after the X8 Chronometer in 1970. The 1300m Professional Diver's I've discussed many times in this thread was also produced in 1982, actually a few months before this watch, but for some reason it wasn't released for sale until late 1982 or early 1983 as far as we can tell based on the JDM dealer catalogs.

Either way, together with the famous 1300m his watches are the first titanium Citizens after the very first one from 1970, and his watches are much more rare!


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> My buddy @Lepdiggums came out of the closet with his rare early titanium Citizens.
> citizen's members, let's see your citizen | Page 340 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> This model is the second titanium Citizen to be released onto the market, after the X8 Chronometer in 1970. The 1300m Professional Diver's I've discussed many times in this thread was also produced in 1982, actually a few months before this watch, but for some reason it wasn't released for sale until late 1982 or early 1983 as far as we can tell based on the JDM dealer catalogs.
> 
> Either way, together with the famous 1300m his watches are the first titanium Citizens after the very first one from 1970, and his watches are much more rare!


Thanks @CitizenPromaster 🙏🙏🙏


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> I never stop researching Citizen's titanium history and Citizen's surface treatment history, and a while back I found an article by Citizen (in a Japanese watch industry journal) about Duratect Sakura Pink, and it contained the following paragraph (auto-translated):
> 
> *Citizen Watch Co., Ltd. (hereinafter referred to as "our company") started the development of ion plating as a next-generation surface treatment in 1972, and released a watch called "Mirador" coated with TiN in 1977. The concept of protecting watches was born from the above, and in 1999, we developed a surface hardening treatment using surface modification technology, and we named this concept "Duratect" 1,2). *
> 
> Elsewhere I found this bit of info (auto-translated):
> 
> *In 1976, the year after the release of the solid gold model Cal.8650A, the Mirador case (stainless steel with titanium nitride plated gold plating) had a corrosion resistance of 5 times that of Citizen's original exterior. *
> 
> Of course I was curious about this titanium nitride coated Mirador watch, and fortunately I have digital copies of some JDM catalogues, and I found the original Mirador watch from 1977.
> View attachment 16634962
> 
> 
> The text in the top left says Mirador. There was also another IG (Ion-plated Gold color) watch in 1977.
> View attachment 16634965
> 
> 
> I'm guessing the word Mirador means something like a golden (d'or) mirror finish? And a mirror finish it is, as evidenced by this 1981 Exceed with IG.
> View attachment 16634966
> 
> 
> In 1978 a new Mirador watch came out.
> View attachment 16634968
> 
> 
> I found photos of a worn example of above watch. I'm not sure if the IG was also on the bracelet on the 1978 version, because there is little coating left, so maybe the bracelet had something cheaper on it like other Citizen watches with a golden bracelet. In the catalogue the bracelet also has a different color on the 1978 version, while the color is uniform on the 1977 version. Perhaps the 1978 version had to be cheaper so they only made the case TiN?
> View attachment 16634978
> 
> 
> View attachment 16634970
> 
> View attachment 16634972
> 
> 
> In 1979 there were also a few IG watches, and they were not cheap!
> View attachment 16634984
> 
> 
> I was able to find and buy an example for my collection, and it arrived today.
> View attachment 16634986
> 
> 
> So there we have it, the genesis of Duratect, titanium nitride ion-plated Citizen watches in the late 70s.
> View attachment 16635009
> 
> Drill bits eat your heart out!


I wanted to own a Mirador watch and I found one, which I think is the second edition of the watch, which was still a CQ-8550F, but it had a small crown guard and seemingly a slightly longer case. The catalog below is probably 78-1, but the watch I bought was made in 1977 like the "first" Mirador watch in the 77-6 catalog (those were models 1429-11 and 1429-12, these are 1429-13, 1429-21 and 1429-31 if my eyes don't deceive me.









I can't make out the case code in this photo, but I'm pretty sure it is the same watch. I was doubtful for a moment, because it turned out to be a lot smaller than I expected, but I don't think there were any ladies' versions, and at 33mm it is a normal size for the time, only slightly smaller than other CQ watches from the 70s and 80s, which were around 34mm. Somehow I was expecting this to be bigger, but it isn't, though the bracelet width at the clasp and the clasp itself is identical to aforementioned watches, which are shown next to it below.









As you can see the mirror finish is pretty impressive.









The tiny bracelet also made me doubt it's for men, but this size is not uncommon in Japan.









Either way, I only have it as a display piece anyway, since it is one of the first ion-plated watches from Citizen, and this titanium nitride mirror finish is literally dazzling!










This is an actual photo! The flat surfaces literally blind you when you look at it under the summer sun, it's pretty spectacular.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

On a sidenote, the CQ watch on the left says SSPD on the tag, which I think is stainless steel with palladium plating, which is kind of special.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Here's a titanium Citizen that is probably not bare titanium, but sure looks like it!


----------



## Xerxes300

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## sky21

Xerxes300 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


So have you made the jump and listed all your other watches for sale yet?


----------



## Xerxes300

sky21 said:


> So have you made the jump and listed all your other watches for sale yet?


Haha!!!

I’m super divided… I only have my solar citizen diver, my seiko solar diver and my certina ds action diver… I’ll wait and see how my 42mm seiko solar diver looks. 

But this Ray Mears is just too much… I love it! 

Incoming










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## sky21

Xerxes300 said:


> Haha!!!
> 
> I’m super divided… I only have my solar citizen diver, my seiko solar diver and my certina ds action diver… I’ll wait and see how my 42mm seiko solar diver looks.
> 
> But this Ray Mears is just too much… I love it!
> 
> Incoming
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Haha, see @Lepdiggums I wasn’t that crazy with my last post after all! That Ray Mears just does something to people, they can hardly put on anything else. I have the similar cousin PMD56-2864 and I have to stick to my rotation or I would probably just wear it all the time.

p.s. I love the look of these new Sikeo Solar divers, like most Seikos the bracelet totally sucks, but the dial and case look awesome.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> The market has determined the value of a (used) CC4025-82E...
> View attachment 16050394
> 
> View attachment 16050395
> 
> View attachment 16050396
> 
> View attachment 16050397
> 
> View attachment 16050398
> 
> View attachment 16050399
> 
> View attachment 16050400
> 
> View attachment 16050401
> 
> View attachment 16050402


Another used CC4025-82E, for 298,000 yen.
値下げ CITIZEN シチズン CC4025-82E SATELLITE WAVE GPS チタニウム技術50周年記念 メンズ ソーラー電波 J28094 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online


----------



## Tseg

When I bought my The Citizen AQ4030 there were some conflicting reviews on the Super Titanium used.

This was the response from the Citizen help desk when I sought to get to the bottom... bummer.

_The watch model AQ4030-51L uses Super Titanium Platinum (5X steel hardness).

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you should have any questions.

Sincerely,
Ryan
Customer Care








_


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

Tseg said:


> When I bought my The Citizen AQ4030 there were some conflicting reviews on the Super Titanium used.
> 
> This was the response from the Citizen help desk when I sought to get to the bottom... bummer.
> 
> _The watch model AQ4030-51L uses Super Titanium Platinum (5X steel hardness).
> 
> Please do not hesitate to contact us if you should have any questions.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Ryan
> Customer Care_
> 
> . . .


Yes, most of the Chronomasters are now Duratect Platinum, so not as hard as the Duratect Alpha that was used on the older AQ4030-51A & -51E (white & black washi dials). Still better than regular stainless steel, though. The info is on Citizen Japan's website for their current line, but they don't preserve the specs for discontinued models.


----------



## Tseg

Maybe I'm not the brightest... I just took a loupe to my new The Citizen with Super Titanium Platinum a week after having received it... wearing it every day, primarily in a desk/office environment. A few years ago I owned a Citizen AT4010-50E titanium solar atomic watch with no coating... I've since given to my son... but in a short time that bracelet scratched up something fierce. 

I'm happy and amazed to report that even with a loupe inspection a week after wear I cannot find a single hairline scratch anywhere on The Citizen case... Not on anything polished, not on the buckle, nowhere. I'm impressed. Knock on wood, hope I did not just hex myself.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Tempted to buy this, but I'm already broke enough and I have no use for it anyway.


----------



## Ziptie

CitizenPromaster said:


> Tempted to buy this, but I'm already broke enough and I have no use for it anyway.
> View attachment 16810980


I carry a monochrome of that very model. Super useful.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Ziptie said:


> I carry a monochrome of that very model. Super useful.


How very pedantic of you  (inside joke)



CitizenPromaster said:


> I like collecting each type of titanium and/or surface treatment Citizen has had on offer - if I can afford it - so I bought one of these titanium alloy Promasters. After I bought it I discovered it was the ladies version, but that doesn't matter at all, since it is just a specimen.
> View attachment 16634898
> 
> 
> There are still plenty of scratches, especially on the clasp, since it is only 1.5 times harder than pure titanium, but as you can see the polish still looks fine. This watch was obviously made with Metal Injection Molding (MIM).


One of the men's titanium alloy watches sold on Yahoo. Since I'm almost broke, I didn't buy it, even though the highest bid was "only" 5,500 yen, which was actually pretty high considering the bracelet was 15.5 cm with the extension in and 17.5 cm with the extension out. But I would not wear it anyway, and I need to cut down on buying "drawer watches" for a while.

































I remembered though that my ladies' version was dead on arrival, so I just put it in the summer sun. Then I noticed the dial is actually sparkly.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Not a single bid... No one wanted to pay 98k yen for a NOS Duratect α F900 GPS Citizen with MSRP of 240k (+ tax)???? Tough crowd!
> 
> So why didn't I? I don't buy watches over €500 out of principle, and I usually stay far below that. But for €740 - with todays Buyee exchange rate - this was GREAT value for money. With the Buyee exchange rate of December 2021 this would have cost €800!


A used CC9000-51A with Duratect α just sold for 77,500 yen, which is great value for money.


----------



## jp.vegas

I made it! Several weeks of reading this thread from beginning to end (at least as of today). @CitizenPromaster thank you for your diligent research and posting over this lengthy period of time. So much good information, perhaps one of the most detailed and informative threads on the whole forum. 

Of course I can't comment without showing my newest obsession:


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster, is currently banned, but will be back in a few days time🔥🔥🔥


----------



## Gan

Not a great photo of a great watch









Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## Gan

Ecozilla on Geckota shark mesh/Citizilla adapters









Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## Gan

NB6004 with duratect.
Apologies for the Ecozilla post above.
It doesn't belong in this thread!









Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk


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## jp.vegas

Lepdiggums said:


> CitizenPromaster, is currently banned, but will be back in a few days time🔥🔥🔥


He keeps doing that 😂


----------



## CitizenPromaster

jp.vegas said:


> He keeps doing that 😂


It was an honest mistake this time! But I guess mistakes are not tolerated. I'm back though! And I'm glad you enjoyed the thread!


----------



## Simon

New Watch and love it - the Citizen site states "The new Promaster Automatic _Diver 200M_ watch features a _Super Titanium_™ case with Duratect DLC coating that is lightweight and durable."

Forgive me if this has been explained ad-nauseum in this thread but I'm a bear of a small brain and genuinely struggle on tech stuff. I had thought the "super" bit of super titanium was the Duratect DLC coating. But here it seems there is "super titanium" AND Duratect DLC coating. So does this watch have Titanium, that is coated (treated) to make it super hard, and then another coating to make it blackened? sorry if this seems like a kindergarten question


----------



## Gan

I love my one. So light, considering its bulk.























Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## Gan

I don't know if this helps? Found on Watchonista:
In 2006, Citizen introduced its Promaster Eco-Drive radio-controlled watch – the first timepiece to utilize the Duratect MRK + DLC dual-surface hardening technology.

This process uses gas to add an extra hardening treatment to make titanium even more resistant to dings and scratches. Duratect MRK is applied to harden the surface of the material, and then the Duratect DLC coats the surface with low-temperature plasma technology.

Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Until a few years ago, outside of Japan Citizen mostly used titanium with a titanium carbide coating, which they called Ti+IP or Super Titanium depending on the market.

Nowadays Super Titanium is used by Citizen to describe titanium with any kind of surface treatment. Sadly, in many markets, rather than specify that a watch is for example titanium + Duratect MRK, they will just call it Super Titanium and that's it.

The NB6005-06L has a titanium case with Duratect MRK + Duratect DLC, the bezel is titanium with only Duratact DLC, because of reasons that I've speculated about in this thread (I proposed that the sharp points on the teeth in the ratcheting mechanism might break if they are too hard, and not so much from using the bezel, but from impacts to the bezel where theoretically all the force could get transferred to a single teeth).

However, a titanium watch with only Duratect DLC will also be called Super Titanium, since it is titanium with a surface treatment. Example: AT6085-50E.









Citizen does not sell titanium watches without some sort of surface treatment under the Citizen brand, so every titanium Citizen is marketed as Super Titanium, which is pretty meaningless unless the surface treatment(s) is (are) specified.


----------



## Simon

CitizenPromaster said:


> Until a few years ago, outside of Japan Citizen mostly used titanium with a titanium carbide coating, which they called Ti+IP or Super Titanium depending on the market.
> 
> Nowadays Super Titanium is used by Citizen to describe titanium with any kind of surface treatment. Sadly, in many markets, rather than specify that a watch is for example titanium + Duratect MRK, they will just call it Super Titanium and that's it.
> 
> The NB6005-06L has a titanium case with Duratect MRK + Duratect DLC, the bezel is titanium with only Duratact DLC, because of reasons that I've speculated about in this thread (I proposed that the sharp points on the teeth in the ratcheting mechanism might break if they are too hard, and not so much from using the bezel, but from impacts to the bezel where theoretically all the force could get transferred to a single teeth).
> 
> However, a titanium watch with only Duratect DLC will also be called Super Titanium, since it is titanium with a surface treatment. Example: AT6085-50E.
> View attachment 16875544
> 
> 
> Citizen does not sell titanium watches without some sort of surface treatment under the Citizen brand, so every titanium Citizen is marketed as Super Titanium, which is pretty meaningless unless the surface treatment(s) is (are) specified.


Very helpful - thankyou
so, is the Duratect MRK a surface hardening whilst the Duratect DLC a surface colouring? 
Or is the DLC also a further hardening or, indeed, does it compromise the MLK hardening?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Simon said:


> Very helpful - thankyou
> so, is the Duratect MRK a hardening whilst the Duratect DLC a coloured coating? Or is the DLC also a further hardening - or, indeed, does it compromise the DLK hardening?


MRK is where oxygen and nitrogen penetrates the top portion of the titanium and the "internal stress" this causes is what constitutes the hardness, so the actual titanium is hardened "internally".

The DLC is adding a hard "external" layer on top of the titanium (the substrate, which can be gas hardened or not), but this "external" layer does not really interact with the subtrate, so it cannot compromise the MRK hardening. It is hardening the titanium only in a colloquial sense, by making the exterior harder, but not the actual titanium. Like how putting on a helmet doesn't make your actual head harder, but it does add protection.

So yes, DLC is "just" a coloured coating, but a very effective and expensive one.

Also, the hardness of DLC and MRK+DLC is the same, because it is the outer surface that determines the rated hardness. Having MRK underneath DLC has other benefits though, otherwise Citizen wouldn't bother. I don't know if I'm right, but in my mind MRK adds mostly impact resistance (compared to a TIC coating), and DLC mostly adds additional scratch resistance (compared to MRK or a TIC coating).


----------



## CitizenPromaster

On a side note: there is a trade-off with the additional impact resistance that MRK gas hardening offers. Untreated titanium will deform from a hard impact, so it will basically dent. MRK hardened titanium might resist a similar impact, but a harder impact might shatter the hardened layer, where untreated titanium would absorb that harder impact by simply deforming to a larger extent.

In the past Citizen had solid tungsten carbide and solid titanium carbide watch cases, which are super hard and virtually scratch resistant. But if the impact was hard enough, it could chip, or more likely judging by the examples I've seen, it cracked all the way through and the watch case could be binned.

So in short: the mortal enemy of watch cases is impacts, like hitting stuff or dropping your watch. That's why it makes sense to make a G-Shock out of plastic. It will deform too, but at least it is cheap and it is not likely to crack if you use the right type of plastic or composite.

Despite my obvious love for Citizen's titanium, I think the best watch case materials are plastic and aluminium if the goal is to make an inexpensive, lightweight watch. But since we are willing to pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a watch, they come up with fancy stuff like Super Titanium with Duratect MRK + Duratect DLC.


----------



## Lepdiggums

CitizenPromaster said:


> On a side note: there is a trade-off with the additional impact resistance that MRK gas hardening offers. Untreated titanium will deform from a hard impact, so it will basically dent. MRK hardened titanium might resist a similar impact, but a harder impact might shatter the hardened layer, where untreated titanium would absorb that harder impact by simply deforming to a larger extent.
> 
> In the past Citizen had solid tungsten carbide and solid titanium carbide watch cases, which are super hard and virtually scratch resistant. But if the impact was hard enough, it could chip, or more likely judging by the examples I've seen, it cracked all the way through and the watch case could be binned.
> 
> So in short: the mortal enemy of watch cases is impacts, like hitting stuff or dropping your watch. That's why it makes sense to make a G-Shock out of plastic. It will deform too, but at least it is cheap and it is not likely to crack if you use the right type of plastic or composite.
> 
> Despite my obvious love for Citizen's titanium, I think the best watch case materials are plastic and aluminium if the goal is to make an inexpensive watch. But since we are willing to pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a watch, they come up with fancy stuff like Super Titanium with Duratect MRK + Duratect DLC (Citizen), or TEGIMENT Technology (Sinn).



Thanks @CitizenPromaster 🙏🙏🙏 this is a nice easy to understand breakdown 🔥🔥🔥


----------



## Simon

CitizenPromaster said:


> MRK is where oxygen and nitrogen penetrates the top portion of the titanium and the "internal stress" this causes is what constitutes the hardness, so the actual titanium is hardened "internally".
> 
> The DLC is adding a hard "external" layer on top of the titanium (the substrate, which can be gas hardened or not), but this "external" layer does not really interact with the subtrate, so it cannot compromise the MRK hardening. It is hardening the titanium only in a colloquial sense, by making the exterior harder, but not the actual titanium. Like how putting on a helmet doesn't make your actual head harder, but it does add protection.
> 
> So yes, DLC is "just" a coloured coating, but a very effective and expensive one.
> 
> Also, the hardness of DLC and MRK+DLC is the same, because it is the outer surface that determines the rated hardness. Having MRK underneath DLC has other benefits though, otherwise Citizen wouldn't bother. I don't know if I'm right, but in my mind MRK adds mostly impact resistance (compared to a TIC coating), and DLC mostly adds additional scratch resistance (compared to MRK or a TIC coating).


Brilliant - thanks for the clarity - grateful for you're knowledge n help


----------



## Simon

CitizenPromaster said:


> On a side note: there is a trade-off with the additional impact resistance that MRK gas hardening offers. Untreated titanium will deform from a hard impact, so it will basically dent. MRK hardened titanium might resist a similar impact, but a harder impact might shatter the hardened layer, where untreated titanium would absorb that harder impact by simply deforming to a larger extent.
> 
> In the past Citizen had solid tungsten carbide and solid titanium carbide watch cases, which are super hard and virtually scratch resistant. But if the impact was hard enough, it could chip, or more likely judging by the examples I've seen, it cracked all the way through and the watch case could be binned.
> 
> So in short: the mortal enemy of watch cases is impacts, like hitting stuff or dropping your watch. That's why it makes sense to make a G-Shock out of plastic. It will deform too, but at least it is cheap and it is not likely to crack if you use the right type of plastic or composite.
> 
> Despite my obvious love for Citizen's titanium, I think the best watch case materials are plastic and aluminium if the goal is to make an inexpensive, lightweight watch. But since we are willing to pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a watch, they come up with fancy stuff like Super Titanium with Duratect MRK + Duratect DLC.


So, may I ask - how does Citizen's super titanium compare to standard use Grade 2 or more exotic Grade 5 titanium? is that essentially the comparison being described here?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Simon said:


> So, may I ask - how does Citizen's super titanium compare to standard use Grade 2 or more exotic Grade 5 titanium? is that essentially the comparison being described here?


I have no first-hand experience with other grades of titanium, but judging purely by the Vickers hardness, even basic Duratect TIC is superior.


CitizenPromaster said:


> Citizen develops all their surface treatments in-house as I've explained in this thread. Citizen has also used titanium alloys in the past, as I've discussed in post #617, #618 and #619, and these were called "fine titanium" (1.5 times harder than pure titanum, 280 ~ 320 Hv) and "hard fine titanium" (2.5 times harder than pure titanium, 400 ~ 450 Hv), but for some reason they abandoned the use of titanium alloys for Exceed models in favor of coatings like Duratect PTIC. Notice though that this "hard fine titanium" is almost as hard as DAT55G (2.5 times versus 3 times), and harder than grade 5 titanium (400 ~ 450 Hv versus 396 Hv).


As you can see, Grade 5 @ 396 Hv gets nowhere near the 1,000 ~ 1,200 Hv of Duratect TIC, but it will be easier to refinish. More discussion on the subject can be found on the page that you go to when you click on my username in the above quote.


----------



## Simon

CitizenPromaster said:


> I have no first-hand experience with other grades of titanium, but judging purely by the Vickers hardness, even basic Duratect TIC is superior.
> 
> As you can see, Grade 5 @ 396 Hv gets nowhere near the 1,000 ~ 1,200 Hv of Duratect TIC, but it will be easier to refinish. More discussion on the subject can be found on the page that you go to when you click on my username in the above quote.


I am currently wading my way through the thread - gosh - I failed physics and wasn't entered in for chemistry at high school level - so its somewhat mind-boggling. But my big take-away is that Citizen have gone for hardening processes over grades of Titanium alloy. And their technology is leagues ahead of the field - they are at the forefront of Titanium tech for watches.....and all that tech in the metal, in relatively modestly priced watches is, quite frankly, extraordinary!


----------



## Terra Citizen

Isn’t Super Titanium a marketing term, referencing the purity and grade of the titanium used by Citizen?

EDIT: Sorry, I haven't read this entire thread yet. It seems that Super Titanium is a process which increases the impact strength of the titanium. It has to do with the crystal structure within the metal. I'm thinking that this is a result of a tempering process?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Terra Citizen said:


> Isn’t Super Titanium a marketing term, referencing the purity and grade of the titanium used by Citizen?


----------



## Ziptie

Terra Citizen said:


> Isn’t Super Titanium a marketing term, referencing the purity and grade of the titanium used by Citizen?
> 
> EDIT: Sorry, I haven't read this entire thread yet. It seems that Super Titanium is a process which increases the impact strength of the titanium. It has to do with the crystal structure within the metal. I'm thinking that this is a result of a tempering process?


Oh man. Start reading just a few posts back.


----------



## Terra Citizen

I will read more and comment less.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Terra Citizen said:


> I will read more and comment less.


At least you are curious


----------



## balllistic

22 year old Promaster Tough (JDM from Higuchi Inc) (correction - ty @CitizenPromaster) _Dura Titan_, daily wearer for years and still in regular rotation. Has a couple minor scuffs and dings on the bezel but has held up incredibly well over the years.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

balllistic said:


> 22 year old Promaster Tough (JDM from Higuchi Inc) non-Duratec version, daily wearer for years and still in regular rotation. Has a couple minor scuffs and dings on the bezel but has held up incredibly well over the years.


It is in fact DURA TITAN


----------



## balllistic

CitizenPromaster said:


> It is in fact DURA TITAN
> 
> View attachment 16879222


Ha I never knew that thanks! Should have used Google Lens on the band tag that came on it sooner!


----------



## Xerxes300

love duratec!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

What does this Alba (Seiko) remind me of ;-)


----------



## Xerxes300

“Super Titanium is CITIZEN’s proprietary surface hardening technology to treat solid titanium. It is at least 5 times harder than stainless steel, resistant to scratches, lightweight and gentle to the skin for comfortable wearing.” -Citizen Japan


----------



## Rocky555

I had a lot of titanium Citizen watches, including base grey BN0220.
But this blue BN0227 with pvd look has by far coolest finish and color.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

For a short while a couple of the Promaster Tough watches were available with bronze colored ion-plating on top of the DURA TITAN.


































I kind of associate that with Camel Trophy watches. Remember those? They're a bit tacky, but cool at the same time.


























And while googling these I found out there was a titanium Camel Trophy watch!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Since the last one sold (that I know of), Citizen has featured the first titanium watch, the X8 Chronometer, in many marketing campaigns, like for the 50th Anniversary of Titanium Technology. As a result of this, many more people know about the existence of this watch and the historic value it has, so when another one came up for sale three days ago, the bidding soon took off and instead of reaching 163,000 yen, it reached 573,430 yen, which is vintage 500m Chrono Master money, so it is now one of the most expensive vintage Citizens out there!
> 
> View attachment 16664532


Another milestone titanium Citizen and star of this thread, the 1300m Professional Diver's, doesn't come up for sale often, and prices are pretty high as I've shown in this thread. Everyone is dreaming of a full set of course, and one finally showed up, and a few affluent folks threw their money at it, which might even be a good hedge against inflation, and here is the result.










We'll have to settle for the photos, which are free.


















































































This watch actually still holds some mysteries. The caseback says BASE TITANIUM SF - TI, and I'm not sure what that indicates. Also, these photos show the color difference between the top of the case (lighter) and the bottom of the case and bezel (darker), and I'm not sure why that is either, but I think it has to do with the SF vs the TI. But maybe it's just the result of the rougher texture the top seems to have. I hope to solve this mystery in the future.


----------



## Pete26

balllistic said:


> 22 year old Promaster Tough (JDM from Higuchi Inc) (correction - ty @CitizenPromaster) _Dura Titan_, daily wearer for years and still in regular rotation. Has a couple minor scuffs and dings on the bezel but has held up incredibly well over the years.


I really miss mine. I wish I still had it.


----------



## Rocky555

Bezel on this one is too easy to turn, sometimes turns few clicks in normal daily wear.
Is it a fault of this model or I have a bad piece?
Can the bezel be tightened somehow?

As for the darkened coating, I banged the wall reall hard, no marks are visible on the watch after I washed the paint away.


----------



## Gan

My bezel turns easily too. I actually really like the bezel action. Nice defined clicks.

Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk


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## ZM-73

Citizen Promaster bullhead
















0570-C50308


----------



## CitizenPromaster

ZM-73 said:


> Citizen Promaster bullhead
> View attachment 16898398
> 
> View attachment 16898399
> 
> 0570-C50308





CitizenPromaster said:


> Today in Obscure Vintage Titanium Citizens...
> 
> View attachment 16052059
> 
> View attachment 16052061
> 
> View attachment 16052062
> 
> View attachment 16052063
> 
> 
> Titanium bullhead, because 90s haha
> 
> Also made with panda dial
> View attachment 16052155
> 
> View attachment 16052164
> 
> View attachment 16052165


As far as I can tell, they were 1 year only, 1995, the first year of JDM Promaster (before that it was Sporte).


----------



## ZM-73

CitizenPromaster said:


> As far as I can tell, they were 1 year only, 1995, the first year of JDM Promaster (before that it was Sporte).
> 
> View attachment 16898703


Thanks for the info. I don't think I ever saw one until I came across this one on Yahoo Auctions Japan.
Couldn't find much about it, but sucessfuly bid for it.
One interesting thing about it is the seconds sub-dial. If you push the top right button it starts the second hand,
push it again and it returns to the 0. Not sure if this is to sync the time or there's something wrong.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

ZM-73 said:


> Thanks for the info. I don't think I ever saw one until I came across this one on Yahoo Auctions Japan.
> Couldn't find much about it, but sucessfuly bid for it.
> One interesting thing about it is the seconds sub-dial. If you push the top right button it starts the second hand,
> push it again and it returns to the 0. Not sure if this is to sync the time or there's something wrong.


Apparently the 0570 is just the no-date version of the 0560, and the manual for that says:








See: WM_051x_EN_B6746 (citizenwatch-global.com)


----------



## Pete26

Here is my Duratect example, just came in today.


----------



## ZM-73

CitizenPromaster said:


> Apparently the 0570 is just the no-date version of the 0560, and the manual for that says:
> View attachment 16899455
> 
> See: WM_051x_EN_B6746 (citizenwatch-global.com)


Good to know that the watch is working properly. And thank you very much for the link to the manual.
There is one of these on Buyee. Have never purchased via them before, but have seen them mention on WUS.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

ZM-73 said:


> Good to know that the watch is working properly. And thank you very much for the link to the manual.
> There is one of these on Buyee. Have never purchased via them before, but have seen them mention on WUS.


Yeah it's amazing what turns up NOS or LNIB on Mercari/Yahoo! I might have mentioned Buyee a few times on WUS...


----------



## ZM-73

Thanks again. will have to look into Buyee. I have been using Zenmarket for several years now.


----------



## scvgood2go

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'm looking at the CB1120-50L, or 50E (same thing, but black dial). Looking to primarily wear it with casual clothes, but is it too dressy? Any opinions?








Citizen Attesa CB1120-50L | Sakurawatches.com


Buy Citizen Attesa CB1120-50L. Official packaging and warranty. Fast delivery from Japan. Accepting PayPal.




www.sakurawatches.com


----------



## CitizenPromaster

scvgood2go said:


> Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'm looking at the CB1120-50L, or 50E (same thing, but black dial). Looking to primarily wear it with casual clothes, but is it too dressy? Any opinions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Citizen Attesa CB1120-50L | Sakurawatches.com
> 
> 
> Buy Citizen Attesa CB1120-50L. Official packaging and warranty. Fast delivery from Japan. Accepting PayPal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sakurawatches.com


This thread is mostly about Citizen's titanium and surface treatment technology and about special or interesting titanium Citizen watches from the past decades, so in my opinion it is not the right place to ask for opinions on a random titanium Citizen. You could make a new thread for that, otherwise this will become the "General Discussion About All Titanium Citizens Thread".

Some WUS members post photos of their not particularly unique titanium Citizens, which I don't want to discourage, since they are obviously happy with and proud of their titanium Citizen, but that already adds plenty of "noise", and it is not really doing the readability of the thread any favors.

I sometimes take a small detour myself, but I always try to keep it titanium or surface treatment related, since that is what I intended this thread to be about. People can always start a "Post your titanium Citizen" thread if they feel that the Citizen forum needs another platform for sharing in addition to the monthly WRUW and citizen's members, let's see your citizen | WatchUSeek Watch Forums.


----------



## scvgood2go

CitizenPromaster said:


> This thread is mostly about Citizen's titanium and surface treatment technology and about special or interesting titanium Citizen watches from the past decades


Ah I'm so sorry! I'll make sure to post in right thread next time.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

As I've shown many times in this thread, scratch-resistance has its limits, and even Duratect α (2,000 ~ 2,500 Hv) can be damaged. Here is another look at a C9000-15A, the only watch so far with Duratect MRK + Duratect α. The owner of this example wore it several times per month since 2017.


























































Besides the deep dent in the center link, it has held up fine, though I have used Duratect MRK watches that are in the same condition, as in the end it comes down to the carefulness of the wearer.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> This watch actually still holds some mysteries. The caseback says BASE TITANIUM SF - TI, and I'm not sure what that indicates. Also, these photos show the color difference between the top of the case (lighter) and the bottom of the case and bezel (darker), and I'm not sure why that is either, but I think it has to do with the SF vs the TI. But maybe it's just the result of the rougher texture the top seems to have. I hope to solve this mystery in the future.


It turns out SFTI was actually mentioned in one of the glossaries in the back of the JDM catalogs, which for most catalog years are kindly offered to me by the JDM Catalog King @Lepdiggums , but for some reason the SFTI was only explained in the glossaries towards the end of the life of the 1300m and for some reason I never noticed the glossary entry for SFTI or made the connection to the 1300m.

But today I did! So what does it say for SFTI? Automatic translation is a black art, but the three variations mean the same thing anyway. And "side" means "outer surface" in this context.
"titanium side (partial nitriding treatment) - the upper body part (protector) on the titanium side is nitrided."
"titanium side (partial nitriding treatment) - nitrided upper body part (protector) on the titanium side."
"titanium side (partial nitriding treatment) - nitriding treatment on the titanium side of the upper body (protector)."

So that explains the color difference on only the top of the case!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

I actually came across the SFTI today while researching another surface treatment term, which is TIIB, not be confused with TIB and TIB IG.

As I've mentioned before, TIB is a very crude black surface treatment on titanium, and it seems to be a sprayed on coating.



CitizenPromaster said:


> I always think I'm going to run out of things to say about Citizen titanium, and then I find more things to research and chronicle!
> 
> This time I saw a post from lenny, who visited WUS between 2006 and 2016. He found a different version of the 800m professional diver that I've shown in this thread.
> 
> View attachment 15687222
> 
> View attachment 15687223
> 
> 
> He wrote: "According to Citizen Japan, this model was made in 1984. They had no other info except that the UK division may have some spare parts. As far as the composition, the gold parts are immersion gold plated titanium. I am not sure about the black portion. It does not feel like ss/titanium or plastic. Maybe magnesium?"
> 
> Well, if we look closely at the above picture, we can just make out TIB-IG on the caseback, and both TIB and TIB-IG are explained in old JDM Citizen catalogues as (auto-translate):
> TIB : black color titanium side : case made of titanium with black surface treatment
> TIBIG : black titanium + hard gold color side : a case made of titanium with a hard gold color treatment partially on the side that was subjected to a black surface treatment
> 
> I had translated the phrase about TIBIG before, but I had never found a watch that employed it. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us the nature of the black surface treatment, but at least we know that the black case is not magnesium but titanium, and it would make sense if it is black PVD as discussed on page 23.
> 
> So there you have it, black titanium in 1984!





CitizenPromaster said:


> Nobody liked this post (literally), but I'm not here for likes, so I won't let that stop me from going on about this particular subject LOL
> I have unknowlingly seen a watch before that employs TIB-IG, and most of you probably have too. The titanium C026/C027/C028/C029 Aqualand!
> 
> View attachment 15697654
> 
> View attachment 15697655
> 
> 
> It is a very crude coating, as is more evident in the below photo of a C026. Reminds me of underbody coating for cars
> View attachment 15697739
> 
> View attachment 15697735





CitizenPromaster said:


> I think I might have posted this watch somewhere in this thread or another, but not this one-sided TIB version.
> 
> View attachment 15929412
> 
> View attachment 15929413
> 
> View attachment 15929414
> 
> View attachment 15929416





CitizenPromaster said:


> I think I've finally found a description of the TIB coating. Someone claimed to quote Citizen on "the 'black sprayed' or IB (ion bonded) versions of the Aqualand":
> 
> "Various materials can be used for black spraying. For this watch case, composite materials of alumina (Al2O3) and titanium oxide (TiO2) are employed. The composite materials are heated using a mixture of acetylene and oxygen gas. When half-melted, the mixture is sprayed onto the case.
> Black spraying has the following merits:
> 
> Excellent hardness (HV 800 - 1000) and wear resistance
> Difficult to scratch, crack or cut
> Coatings using this method are 30-50 microns thick. Black spraying is widely used in industry. Examples include the NASA Space Shuttle, jet engines and nuclear reactors."
> 
> If this is indeed a quote from Citizen, I think this does not describe the smooth black coating seen on BASE METAL IB Aqualands, but the rough black coating seen on TIB-IG Aqualands, as the wear seen on BASE METAL IB Aqualands does not match a Vickers hardness of 800 - 1,000 Hv, and TIB was in fact described as having a hardness of 1,000 Hv, as can be seen in the below graph that I've posted before in this thread.
> 
> View attachment 16536924


I recently found another titanium Citizen - from the JDM Attesa line - from the late 80s with a partially black surface treatment, but it looks much smoother than the TIB coating, and the back says BASE TITANIUM TIIB.

























The tag you see is for another Attesa by the way. Again, thanks to @Lepdiggums I was able to identify TIIB in one of the glossaries in the back of a JDM Citizen catalog.

TIIB indicates: "black titanium coating + titanium side - a combination of black titanium coating on the titanium side".

So where the B in TIB is a "black surface treatment", the IB in TIIB is a "black titanium coating", which confirms that they are indeed two different things, and it makes me think TIIB is a very early black titanium carbide coating.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in obscure semi-vintage titanium Citizens...


















The strap seems to be original.


----------



## helderberg

I got this about 5 days ago and I haven't taken it off since. Very happy with this piece and could not be happier that I bought the Ti version also.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Today in obscure semi-vintage titanium Citizens...


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

Tseg said:


> When I bought my The Citizen AQ4030 there were some conflicting reviews on the Super Titanium used.
> 
> This was the response from the Citizen help desk when I sought to get to the bottom... bummer.
> 
> _The watch model AQ4030-51L uses Super Titanium Platinum (5X steel hardness).
> 
> Please do not hesitate to contact us if you should have any questions.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Ryan
> Customer Care_
> 
> . . .


My earlier post, & Citizen Customer Care, may have been inaccurate. The cached AQ4030-51L product page says it has Duratect alpha.


----------



## Tseg

drunken-gmt-master said:


> My earlier post, & Citizen Customer Care, may have been inaccurate. The cached AQ4030-51L product page says it has Duratect alpha.


Not sure how resistant 5X is vs 10X, but (knock on wood) not the slightest hairline scratch despite months of the bracelet scraping against my desk and keyboard. It would be good to know the real story of what coating is on my watch.


----------



## Xerxes300

Tseg said:


> Not sure how resistant 5X is vs 10X, but (knock on wood) not the slightest hairline scratch despite months of the bracelet scraping against my desk and keyboard. It would be good to know the real story of what coating is on my watch.


You know what I love… that other companies that charge thousands for their watches make up BS excuses to not treat titanium or to use steel backs on their watches instead of titanium backs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## CitizenPromaster

The most wear on DLC I've seen so far. The faded red and orange also indicates many hours on the wrist in the sun.


----------



## tikander

Citizen's blog on titanium on ablogtowatch from October 5th: 








Citizen Breaks The Watch Material Mold With Super Titanium | aBlogtoWatch


Sponsored post presented on aBlogtoWatch for advertiser Titanium is more prominent in the current watch industry than ever before, with brands across the marketplace turning to the metal as a lighter, more durable, and more visually aggressive alternative to traditional stainless steel. Despite...



www.ablogtowatch.com


----------



## CitizenPromaster

After first announcing some new Attesa models with a sapphire bezel (insert), Citizen has now announced some more new Attesa models with a new surface treatment called Duratect DLC Blue. As you might have guessed, it is blue in color, but apparently not because of an added coating on top of the grey/black DLC coating, but because of thin film interference. I quote from the press release (auto-translated):

_The newly developed DLC Blue applied to the bezel and band is a surface hardening technology that achieves a unique deep blue color while maintaining the characteristics of Duratect DLC*3. Focusing on the principle of "thin film interference", which is the same phenomenon that makes soap bubbles appear rainbow-colored, we developed this film using advanced DLC film formation technology. Citizen, which has been working on surface hardening technology Duratect for a long time, has created three attractive models that are scratch resistant, smooth to the touch, and have a beautiful blue color tone._

So, what does this DLC Blue look like?










More images: Blue Universe Collection | CITIZEN シチズン時計


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Citizen develops all their surface treatments in-house as I've explained in this thread. Citizen has also used titanium alloys in the past, as I've discussed in post #617, #618 and #619, and these were called "fine titanium" (1.5 times harder than pure titanum, 280 ~ 320 Hv) and "hard fine titanium" (2.5 times harder than pure titanium, 400 ~ 450 Hv), but for some reason they abandoned the use of titanium alloys for Exceed models in favor of coatings like Duratect PTIC. Notice though that this "hard fine titanium" is almost as hard as DAT55G (2.5 times versus 3 times), and harder than grade 5 titanium (400 ~ 450 Hv versus 396 Hv).


Behind the scenes, Citizen has not completely given up on titanium alloys for their watches, as evidenced by this recent patent about "a Ti-based alloy of which a material itself is hard at a level not requiring a hardening treatment of a surface, which has Vickers hardness of HV580 or more".

So at 580 Hv this alloy is considerably harder than grade 5 titanium and "hard fine titanium". If it indeed comes to market, would they use it under the Super Titanium umbrella? Or would it be called Hyper Titanium?  Or perhaps it's not even meant for Citizen branded watches? Only time will tell...

JP2019178388A - Ti-BASED ALLOY, MANUFACTURING METHOD THEREFOR, COMPONENT FOR WATCH - Google Patents


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> As much as I love the technology behind Duratect and the benefits it has over untreated titanium, I also really love how in bright sunlight on "bare" titanium (not polished or brushed) you can see the natural titanium oxide (TiO2) surface layer, with the crystal grains reflecting light in all colors of the rainbow (if you get close enough so your eye doesn't perceive one color). Why the colors are there I have explained in post #699.
> 
> It proved impossible for me to photograph the colors, but you can kind of see the crystral grains in this photo of my Citizen Reguno.
> View attachment 16584667





CitizenPromaster said:


> This time in the evening light using digital zoom and adjusting to the brightest spot the colors came out much better, no need even to mess with the saturation or contrast.
> 
> View attachment 16605194


Some more titanium oxide goodness…


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Some visuals of a used CC4004-66P (150,000 yen + tax, while MSRP was 240,000 yen + tax), this guy managed to scratch the sapphire, but the MRK Gold seems fine.
> You can still get new examples, with the usual discount of 30%, so 168,000 yen + tax. But to get it to my door, with Dutch VAT, it would become 1,800 EUR (2,100 USD), and that is more than I should be spending on a watch. However, if I had to choose between the Moon Gold CC4004-66P for 1,800 EUR and the limited edition Titanium Technology 50th Anniversary CC4025-82E for 3,950 EUR, then it's an obvious choice!
> 
> View attachment 15474683
> 
> View attachment 15474684
> 
> View attachment 15474686
> 
> View attachment 15474687
> 
> View attachment 15474688
> 
> View attachment 15474690
> 
> View attachment 15474691
> 
> View attachment 15474692
> 
> 
> And here is another used example, I am posting all these pictures to get a feel for the tone of the MRK Gold.
> 
> View attachment 15474701
> 
> View attachment 15474702
> 
> View attachment 15474703
> 
> View attachment 15474705
> 
> View attachment 15474706


Another look at a CC4004-66P in MRK Gold with DLC bezel (still way above my budget).


----------



## Barnaby'sDad

Is there a definitive list of non-US market titanium Citizen GMT models that are 39-42mm? Also…don’t want a radio sync model (no interest in attempting to do the radio emulator app thing again).

I’ve searched all over, was about to throw in the towel, and “discovered” the BJ7086-57E.










It’s not exactly what I want, but closer than the
BJ7100 or BJ7110. Thank you.

Anyone know what model this is? Looks like ATD53 and it’s radio controlled.


----------



## cmiguelq

So i find a nice deal of an Citizen cb0260 81l, in the specs says this :

case made of satined Super Titanium

thanks to the Citizen Duratect surface hardening, Super Titanium is 5 times harder and approx. 40% lighter than stainless steel

All watches with Super Titanium have duratec? Duratec its better to deal with scratches? Or it will scratch easily?


Regards


----------



## CitizenPromaster

cmiguelq said:


> So i find a nice deal of an Citizen cb0260 81l, in the specs says this :
> 
> case made of satined Super Titanium
> 
> thanks to the Citizen Duratect surface hardening, Super Titanium is 5 times harder and approx. 40% lighter than stainless steel
> 
> All watches with Super Titanium have duratec? Duratec its better to deal with scratches? Or it will scratch easily?
> 
> 
> Regards


Please read page 1 of this thread for the answers to your questions.


----------



## cmiguelq

CitizenPromaster said:


> Please read page 1 of this thread for the answers to your questions.


Too much information, dificult to understand! But thanks


----------



## CitizenPromaster

cmiguelq said:


> Too much information, dificult to understand! But thanks


Short answers: titanium + Duratect surface treatment = Super Titanium. So they are just marketing terms for the same thing, a titanium watch that is more scratch resistant than naked titanium. If it will scratch easily depends on how you handle your watches. It will certainly scratch over time with normal use, but not as easily as stainless steel. However, you cannot easily refinish the titanium coating, and you might not like the lightness of titanium if you enjoy a heavy watch. So if it is right for you, I cannot tell you.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> While Citizen has moved away from aluminium in favor of titanium, at some point Citizen did make a few Eco-Drive watches - called Trans Solar - for the brand Trans Continents, and they made the case out of aluminium. No hardermite coating though!
> 
> View attachment 16105157
> 
> View attachment 16105158
> 
> View attachment 16105161


I also found a dark (anodized?) version. Maybe it's time for Citizen to drop this titanium nonsense and go with Super Aluminium?????


----------



## therion

I got my first Super Ti+Duratect Citizen watch thanks to this thread  I've read the whole 64 pages before taking the plunge and decided that the Super Ti Duratect level is good enough for me. I have to get used to the feel and color of Ti, but otherwise I quite like it. It's the EU Skyhawk, the blue dialed Citizen Promaster JY8100-80L. Full Ti plus sapphire. Can't ask for more really  I took the photo before committing quite some time to figuring out the basic settings, that's why both subdials say UTC. It's been corrected by now  I must say that it's not very intuitive and simple to operate, but then again no rocket science.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

therion said:


> I got my first Super Ti+Duratect Citizen watch thanks to this thread  I've read the whole 64 pages before taking the plunge and decided that the Super Ti Duratect level is good enough for me.


Read the whole 64 pages? If I had some titanium medals, I'd give you one! Since I don't, all you get is this:


----------



## therion

Thank you, I feel honored and appreciate this lousy photo of a T-shirt , don't bother with the medals. I'll do my best to turn it into a NFT and wear it in Decentraland or Sandbox 

I really enjoyed this thread and I admire your passion and dedication to this topic.  My local watch dealer is happy too


----------



## snaimpally

Just got an AT8181-71L and love it! Does anyone know if the bracelet is removeable?


----------



## Igorek

snaimpally said:


> Just got an AT8181-71L and love it! Does anyone know if the bracelet is removeable?
> 
> View attachment 16992078


Yes, it's removeable


----------



## Moonbiter

Igorek said:


> Yes, it's removeable


Yep, you can tell if you look closely that it's not an integrated bracelet. I've learned I'm not a fan of those, if anything because they can be a major pain to source if you have any issues with the bracelet.


----------



## snaimpally

Moonbiter said:


> Yep, you can tell if you look closely that it's not an integrated bracelet. I've learned I'm not a fan of those, if anything because they can be a major pain to source if you have any issues with the bracelet.


Great - thanks! The Ti bracelet is great, but its always fun to put a new strap on now and again.


----------



## Matter of Time

This just came in tonight, a Duratect blast from the past, *PMT56-2731. *Case and bracelet seem to be in great condition for such an old watch.


----------



## phubbard

I have the blue dial version of that. Great watch. MCWW swapped in a new capacitor and gaskets and it’s good to go. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Xerxes300

i'm amazed! those two look 1 year old at best... amazing technology... why would anyone want a shiny rolex that scratches 'til kingdom come in a week, when these Citizens look new decades later??


----------



## Pete26

phubbard said:


> I have the blue dial version of that. Great watch. MCWW swapped in a new capacitor and gaskets and it’s good to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


How old is it?


----------



## aafanatic

@CitizenPromaster Gotta post my "Shadow of the Moon" here: CC40004-66E F950


----------



## cmiguelq

Today my first super titanium will arrive, soon i will Post the Photos, its a CB0260-81L!


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Xerxes300 said:


> i'm amazed! those two look 1 year old at best... amazing technology... why would anyone want a shiny rolex that scratches 'til kingdom come in a week, when these Citizens look new decades later??


Not everyone agrees with this statement haha


ray-k said:


> I've been wearing the CB3010-57E for 5 years and I love this movement. My only complaints are that the CITIZEN name is painted (rather than applied) to the face, and the lug width is so narrow it's virtually impossible to swap to a strap. They fixed both of those things on the CB3030. *Be aware that whatever scratchproof coating Citizen uses doesn't do jack; mine is crazy scratched. *No big deal. That sapphire bezel should help.


His watch is Duratect TIC (1,000 ~ 1,200 Hv), so standard Super Titanium.


----------



## Matter of Time

phubbard said:


> I have the blue dial version of that. Great watch. MCWW swapped in a new capacitor and gaskets and it’s good to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Very nice. I've got a blue one on the way. Should be here in a week or so.
Did you go to MCWW because they're local to you; or are they known for working on older Citizens?


----------



## CitizenPromaster

As you might know, I have a mint and a beater PMD56-2776, but the beater is missing one link for me to wear it comfortably, so it has been in the box since I got it. I never saw another watch with MRK + FPF (2772 or 2776) that was cheap enough to buy for just a spare link, but since I'm a recent convert to NATO straps, I decided to put the beater on a NATO. Of course I wanted a NATO with matte titanium hardware, and I actually found one! I can't disclose the brand, it's supposedly a well-kept secret for those "in the know" and for those "who know how to use google", but here is the result.










During this summer, even loose titanium bracelets started to annoy me, so this will be my hot summer day watch.

I had to use thinner spring bars though (that I fortunately had laying around in an inheritance of watch tools), and then I barely got the rather thick NATO strap through.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Barnaby'sDad said:


> Is there a definitive list of non-US market titanium Citizen GMT models that are 39-42mm? Also…don’t want a radio sync model (no interest in attempting to do the radio emulator app thing again).
> 
> I’ve searched all over, was about to throw in the towel, and “discovered” the BJ7086-57E.
> 
> View attachment 16978763
> 
> 
> It’s not exactly what I want, but closer than the
> BJ7100 or BJ7110. Thank you.
> 
> Anyone know what model this is? Looks like ATD53 and it’s radio controlled.
> 
> View attachment 16978796


★美品ソーラー充電シチズン CITIZEN プロマスター GMT ワールドタイム エコドライブ B877-R011618【送料無料】 /【Buyee】 "Buyee" Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online
Edit: my bad, it's stainless


----------



## phubbard

Pete26 said:


> How old is it?


Unknown. I bought it as needs repair. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## phubbard

Matter of Time said:


> Very nice. I've got a blue one on the way. Should be here in a week or so.
> Did you go to MCWW because they're local to you; or are they known for working on older Citizens?


They’ve helped out on several watches for me of different kinds. Relumed some, refinished a case on one, and I asked if he could do the work here also. Just a great guy but several states away from me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## cmiguelq

So it arrived right now, its was without battery, probably only tomorrow it will have enough to sync.

Opinions about the watch are welcome, its the Citizen CB0260-81L with duratec.


----------



## aafanatic

@cmiguelq Looks awesome 👏 Great score


----------



## AllenG




----------



## Matter of Time

phubbard said:


> I have the blue dial version of that. Great watch. MCWW swapped in a new capacitor and gaskets and it’s good to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Received my blue PMT56-2732 the other day, along with a PMT56-2711. Now I just need to find a bracelet for the PMT56-2711.


----------



## Matter of Time

Another older Duratect monocoque Citizen just arrived today: *PMX56-2591*. Still hoping to find a red PMX56-2594 or green PMX56-2593.


----------



## Pete26

My latest duratect watch.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

If you are one of the people that has read this entire thread, you might have noticed that there is a big gap in the history of Citizen's titanium watches. In 1970 Citizen released the first production titanium cased watch ever, the X8 Chronometer, and then in 1982 they released the 1300m Professional Diver's, but what about the 12 year period between those two watches?

I've spent a couple of years researching this question, and as sources are limited, it required JDM dealer catalogs and buying actual watches. Since I'm not getting paid to publish my research in this thread, and since the number of people that actually cares about the subject is limited, I am currently not motivated to write up all my findings, I will just give you the short version.

Right after the first titanium cased watch was released in 1970, up until the late 80s, Citizen made and sold watches which were either sintered titanium carbide, or sintered titanium nitride. That's right, these were not watches _coated_ in TiC or TiN, they were _solid_ TiC or _solid_ TiN (made by sintering, like most ceramics), with a stainless core/insert that housed the movement. Citizen also made and sold a lot of watches with a solid TiC or solid TiN bezel. Unlike the ceramic TiC that is black, as used by Rado, the TiC is blueish silver, and the TiN is goldish.

What you see below is a watch from the first Exceed collection in 1977, which was not yet branded as Exceed on the dial. This one is solid TiC, but most ceramic Exceeds that year, and during the 80s, were TiN. Both materials had a Vicker's hardness of 1,500 ~ 1,800 Hv, which makes them virtually scratch proof, however, the harder something is, the more brittle it is, and much like tungsten carbide cased watches, they could crack if you for example dropped them or hit them really hard. Otherwise, they are indestructible, and on top of that, the Exceeds you see below have sapphire glass, in 1977! Even Rolex only used sapphire glass on a few of their models back then.

During the 80s, these cases were listed as having a hardness of 1,200 ~ 1,500 Hv, so I'm not sure what changed, but the early examples that I have collected, really don't have a scratch on them, and you need a loupe to spot the tiniest of chips at edges, so I'm inclined to believe the earlier hardness claim too. Perhaps they dialed back the hardness, because it is mostly the early ones that I have seen cracked examples of. The case would either crack completely, which compromised the water resistance, or it would crack at the spring bar hole, rendering it unusable.

So now for some visuals. Here is my 1977 Citizen Exceed with solid titanium carbide case and sapphire crystal.










And here you see the TiN version of the same watch (not in my collection), and notice the case has cracked fully where the crown is.




























Here are two other Exceed models from the 1977 collection that I do own, these also have a solid titanium nitride case and sapphire glass. As you can see above and below, the sintered titanium nitride case is not as golden as a pure titanium nitride coating typically is.










And here is a pretty common watch, it has a light alloy with black hardermite case - as discussed in this thread - and a solid titanium carbide bezel.










The related model below has had a rough life, but the bezel is still mint, what you see is just gunk, which can sometimes be surprisingly hard to remove because the surface is so smooth.










Citizen was certainly not the only watchmaker to use ceramics, it was very popular in the 70s and 80s, and Seiko and Orient had similar products. However, as you know, Citizen ultimately opted for titanium cases with surface treatments rather than these "cemented carbide" cases (the term can also refer to a nitride). When I posted the webpage about Duratect from 1999 in post #263, I left out a part. The full page looked like this:










At question 5 you can see a comparison between Duratect and cemented carbide. At the time, I wasn't sure what they meant by cemented carbide, and I was puzzled why they were talking about it in a way that described a solid case rather than a coating, but now I know it refers to the TiC and TiN cases and bezels shown above. As you can see, Citizen gives reasons why they moved away from cemented carbide, towards surface hardening and later coatings, with TiC coatings ultimately becoming their preferred method, and their entry level Duratect surface treatment under the Super Titanium umbrella. By the way, "HL finish is difficult", I think means a hairline/brushed finish is difficult, because as you can see the only finish for cemented carbide is mirror finish, which was achieved by polishing the sintered material, but these hard materials like titanium carbide, titanium nitride and tungsten carbide "can be polished and finished only with abrasives of superior hardness such as cubic boron nitride and diamond powder, wheels and compounds" as wikipedia tells us. So I think ion-plated TiC coatings are also better suited to mass production, and much less expensive than cemented carbide.


----------



## Xerxes300

Thanks!! I love learning about how advanced Citizen watches really are. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## CitizenPromaster

CitizenPromaster said:


> Since the last one sold (that I know of), Citizen has featured the first titanium watch, the X8 Chronometer, in many marketing campaigns, like for the 50th Anniversary of Titanium Technology. As a result of this, many more people know about the existence of this watch and the historic value it has, so when another one came up for sale three days ago, the bidding soon took off and instead of reaching 163,000 yen, it reached 573,430 yen, which is vintage 500m Chrono Master money, so it is now one of the most expensive vintage Citizens out there!
> 
> View attachment 16664532


So while Citizen claims the X8 Chronometer as the first ever production wristwatch with a titanium case, from 1970, Omega has always claimed to have the first prototype wristwatch with a titanium case, from 1969, the Alaska I. And I found some nice photos and a story.



















Only the inner case is titanium, even though it doesn't really look like it with the polished finish, and the outer case is anodized aluminium.




























Omega writes:

"Alaska" was OMEGA’s chosen code-name for everything that involved NASA and was always deemed top-secret. To meet the demands of the extreme temperatures of space, the “Alaska I” prototype had a removable anodized aluminium outer case or “thermal shield” and a pure titanium inner case making it the first wristwatch in the world to be cased in pure titanium. The white dial was added to better reflect the heat of the sun.

FACT #1: TITANIUM WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO FIND AND ALSO MACHINE. THE TITANIUM USED BY OMEGA WAS MOST PROBABLY SOURCED THROUGH THE SAME COMPANIES THAT DELIVERED TITANIUM TO THE USA FOR THE CREATION OF A VERY FAMOUS MILITARY AIRCRAFT.

FACT #2: IN SWITZERLAND’S ONLY SPACE SIMULATOR AT THE TIME, SEVERAL TESTS WERE MADE FOR DIFFERENT COLOURS OF THE HEAT SHIELD. RED WAS EVENTUALLY PREFERRED DUE TO ITS SUPERIOR HEAT-RESISTANCE AND REFLECTIVE PROPERTIES.

Source: OMEGA® Speedmaster Alaska I, 1969 (omegawatches.com)


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## Rojote

Awesome thread and very detailed. I have a DLC Promaster 300m Bn0175-19e I just picked up new w/ tags and the scuba tank box. This one was hard to find new. Cheers.


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## CitizenPromaster

Rojote said:


> Awesome thread and very detailed. I have a DLC Promaster 300m Bn0175-19e I just picked up new w/ tags and the scuba tank box. This one was hard to find new. Cheers.
> View attachment 17032586


Cool, not many stainless Citizens have DLC, so that is a rare combo.


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## Moonbiter

Rojote said:


> Awesome thread and very detailed. I have a DLC Promaster 300m Bn0175-19e I just picked up new w/ tags and the scuba tank box. This one was hard to find new. Cheers.
> View attachment 17032586


Very cool! My metal G-Shock has DLC on the module housing and though it has some light scratches from use, DLC is pretty hard to destroy. Much hardier than PVD coatings usually, so your new watch should staybshiny and black for a long time! Looks like a good adventure watch.


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## Joegreen

Citizen Promaster Perpetual Calendar BL5194-52E


















Features:
Perpetual Calendar 
Duratect Titanium
Movement Eco Drive 
Calibre E811
100m Water Resistant Case
Dial Black dial
Crystal Sapphire crystal
Case Duratect coated Titanium
Bracelet/Strap Duratect coated Titanium bracelet


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## CitizenPromaster

Mirador part 1: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC | Page 58 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
Mirador part 2: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC | Page 61 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums

So I've been chasing the Mirador watches, and actually mirror in French is _miroir_, and _miroir d'or_ sounds even more like Mirador than mirror d'or, which doesn't make sense anyway to havo two languages, so my guess is Mirador - which is only ever written in kanji - is supposed to sound like miroir d'or.

Anyway, I found what I think is the very first Mirador, made in late '76 as a watch for 1977, and boy does titanium nitride look good on a watch!


















I also bought a Mirador from 1979, which is a size larger than the other two, it also has a screw-down crown as it seems to be part of the water resist 10 atm series. The bracelet looks different, like the ones I talked about looking different in the catalog, and I think that is explained by the new bracelets being brushed and coated in TiN, rather than being polished and coated with TiN. Why the watch in my first post about Mirador had so much wear though, I don't know. Maybe it just had a rough life.

So here is my trio of Mirador watches, which soon might be a duo, because my friend wants to buy the one on the strap as it is gorgeous! He opted not to buy it, and I don't mind at all!


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## nuhobby

Fascinating! I have turned a few wood pens on my lathe, and some of the coolest hardware I tried was titanium nitride.


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## Moonbiter

CitizenPromaster said:


> Mirador part 1: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC | Page 58 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> Mirador part 2: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC | Page 61 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums
> 
> So I've been chasing the Mirador watches, and actually mirror in French is _miroir_, and _miroir d'or_ sounds even more like Mirador than mirror d'or, which doesn't make sense anyway to havo two languages, so my guess is Mirador - which is only ever written in kanji - is supposed to sound like miroir d'or.
> 
> Anyway, I found what I think is the very first Mirador, made in late '76 as a watch for 1977, and boy does titanium nitride look good on a watch!
> 
> View attachment 17041397
> 
> View attachment 17041399
> 
> 
> I also bought a Mirador from 1989, which is a size larger than the other two, it also has a screw-down crown as it seems to be part of the water resist 10 atm series. The bracelet looks different, like the ones I talked about looking different in the catalog, and I think that is explained by the new bracelets being brushed and coated in TiN, rather than being polished and caoted with TiN. Why the watch in my first post about Mirador had so much wear though, I don't know. Maybe it just had a rough life.
> 
> So here is my trio of Mirador watches, which soon might be a duo, because my friend wants to buy the one on the strap as it is gorgeous!
> 
> View attachment 17041409


Really love the look of those! Nice collection.


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## Lepdiggums

1994 quartz bullhead 🔥🔥🔥


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## Matter of Time

Matter of Time said:


> Another older Duratect monocoque Citizen just arrived today: *PMX56-2591*. Still hoping to find a red PMX56-2594 or green PMX56-2593.
> 
> View attachment 17020281


The Buyee gods have smiled upon me. Found my red *PMX56-2594*. This one looks like it's had a bit harder life than the black one, but it's still a great looking watch.


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## Moonbiter

Matter of Time said:


> The Buyee gods have smiled upon me. Found my red *PMX56-2594*. This one looks like it's had a bit harder life than the black one, but it's still a great looking watch.
> 
> 
> View attachment 17065203


Looks great, enjoy it!


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## CitizenPromaster

Today I noticed that the caseback on the 1000m "AutoZilla" - the NH6931-06E/NH6930-09F - says Duratect. Photo courtesy of @Lepdiggums











This is strange, because I've never seen this model on the (archived) Japanese Citizen websites from 2006 ~ 2009 when this watch was in production, and the term Duratect was not used on international releases until recently. So this made me wonder, what kind of Duratect is it? Well, after an extensive search, I found exactly one page on the internet that offers some insight (auto-translated).










"completed DURATECT 800Hv" Now this is a nice Titanium Thread quiz: where have I mentioned 800 Hv? Here, when discussing DURATECT-Titan:



CitizenPromaster said:


> I was able to dig up a website from 1999 about Duratect, and much to my surprise, the first commercial application of "Duratect" was not IP / TIC, it was an early form of MRK!
> 
> View attachment 14955489


And I mentioned 800 Hv again in the post after that one:


CitizenPromaster said:


> By 2002, as below screenshot shows, Duratect had branched into TIC, MRK and TIN, though Duratect MRK was still at 800 Hv, instead of the current 1300-1500 Hv.
> 
> View attachment 14955561
> 
> 
> The "shocking" conclusion is now that not all Duratect MRK was created equal. I will try to ascertain when MRK became 1300-1500 Hv, to be continued...


Later I wrote:



CitizenPromaster said:


> I came across some old info about the PMD56-2772 that was used by Watch Tanaka since november 2003. It confirms what I was discussing on page 14 of this thread about the early Duratect MRK being only 800 Hv.
> 
> (...)
> *☆* Duratect MRK case has a coating hardness of Hv800 (a pure titanium is around Hv150)
> and FPF gives off a unique shine of honing dark gray.


And eventually I found an explanation for my earlier findings:



CitizenPromaster said:


> Found a description of DURATECT-Titan on some guy's old website. If the info he quotes actually came from Citizen, the 800 Hv mentioned in post #263 might be some kind of average for the 1500 HV to 170 HV gradient mentioned below? This suggests that Duratect MRK (1300 ~ 1500 Hv) has not become harder, but that Citizen is just mentioning the hardness of the surface rather than the average of the gradient.
> -----------------------------------
> Want to know what Citizen Duratect Ti really is? Read below. This is why it is 3-4 times more scratch resistant than stainless steel.
> 
> This is a watch applied "DURATECT-Titan" that is the surface treatment technology of Ti. DURATECT-Titan processed layer is fabricated by the following processes; diffusion of Ni and O up to the depth of 20-30 micrometers, and interstitial-type solidification of Ni (~ 0.5 vol.%) and O (~ 3 vol.%) to the alpha phase in Ti (the lower temperature phase with body-centered cubic lattices). As a result, this brought continuous decrease in hardness in between surface (Ni-, Ti-rich part) and 30 micrometers depth (close-to-pure Ti part) from about 1500 HV to 170 HV. The hard-layer on the surface is not easy to delaminate since it has a graded function. This technology has been applied to outer parts such as watch bezels and bands.


So, I think it is safe to conclude that the AutoZilla has Duratect MRK that was still rated as 800 Hv. This makes it to my knowledge the first non-JDM/international model to have Duratect MRK and to say Duratect on the caseback.


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## Lepdiggums

Just arrived in the white dial 1994 bullhead 🔥🔥


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## Lepdiggums

Both 1994 bullheads together 🥳🥳🥳


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## Lepdiggums

1995 titanium 6218 with citizens "Ignis backlight"🔥🔥🔥 thanks @CitizenPromaster for the catalog pic😊👍


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## Lepdiggums

1984 TIB-IG 800m saturation diver 🔥🔥


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## CitizenPromaster

Sometimes you see a titanium Citizen you didn't even know existed, and you just have to buy it, as per my signature.










It's a 1998 LIMITED VERSION REFEREE WATCH, 41mm.


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## Moonbiter

CitizenPromaster said:


> Sometimes you see a titanium Citizen you didn't even know existed, and you just have to buy it, as per my signature.
> 
> View attachment 17101133
> 
> 
> It's a 1998 LIMITED VERSION REFEREE WATCH, 41mm.


1998 coincides with the 1998 France World Cup. I've seen limited edition G-Shocks from France '98, but I wonder if there's some other kind of partnership there?


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## CitizenPromaster

Moonbiter said:


> 1998 coincides with the 1998 France World Cup. I've seen limited edition G-Shocks from France '98, but I wonder if there's some other kind of partnership there?


There is a J symbol on the caseback, but it's not the Japanese Football Association symbol, nor the Japanese Rugby League symbol, so I'm still in the dark.









Edit: found it, it's the symbol of the J.League = Japan Professional Football League:


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## Moonbiter

CitizenPromaster said:


> There is a J symbol on the caseback, but it's not the Japanese Football Association symbol, nor the Japanese Rugby League symbol, so I'm still in the dark.
> View attachment 17101360
> 
> 
> Edit: found it, it's the symbol of the J.League = Japan Professional Football League:
> View attachment 17101392


Super cool, probably the watch issued to the refs that season. Wonder if it has 45 minute timers pre-set.


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## fmc000

CitizenPromaster said:


> There is a J symbol on the caseback, but it's not the Japanese Football Association symbol, nor the Japanese Rugby League symbol, so I'm still in the dark.
> View attachment 17101360
> 
> 
> Edit: found it, it's the symbol of the J.League = Japan Professional Football League:
> View attachment 17101392








Citizen Titanium J-League 1998 Limited Version Referee Watch


Today is the turn of another Citizen LCD watch from the 90s. It is a limited edition watch from the Citizen Titanium range, and is a collab...




whichwatchtoday.blogspot.com


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## CitizenPromaster

fmc000 said:


> Citizen Titanium J-League 1998 Limited Version Referee Watch
> 
> 
> Today is the turn of another Citizen LCD watch from the 90s. It is a limited edition watch from the Citizen Titanium range, and is a collab...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whichwatchtoday.blogspot.com


Looks like I'm missing most of the watch


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## Terra Citizen

NY0107 Super Titanium with DLC:


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## Pete26

The Australian TV show Gladiators used to give away Citizen Titanium Promasters as prizes to contestants. We saw the taping of some episodes at the Brisbane Entertainment Centre in the 1990's.


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## Lepdiggums

Some 1982 titanium goodness 🔥🔥🔥
1300m may of 82 and the Pw is July of 82, but the Pw was released first 🥳🥳


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## journeyforce

Here is my Citizen Skyhawk JY8068-56E limited edition Super Titanium model with sapphire crystal. If I recall correctly, this is the only Skyhawk of this generation (2014-2018) that has any type of Ti case/bracelet or has a sapphire crystal.


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## singularityseven

I picked up this NB6021-68L recently out of curiosity, and to photograph it! Just put up a video of some footage of this watch here, for anyone interested:


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## CitizenPromaster

This Walter Wolf is one of the more expensive vintage titanium Citizens you could have on your wish list:


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## CitizenPromaster

fmc000 said:


> Citizen Titanium J-League 1998 Limited Version Referee Watch
> 
> 
> Today is the turn of another Citizen LCD watch from the 90s. It is a limited edition watch from the Citizen Titanium range, and is a collab...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whichwatchtoday.blogspot.com


The skeleton of the J.League Referee Watch arrived. It's a shame it is not complete, because the titanium part is really nice and solid and it feels like a quality watch. You can't put any kind of normal strap on it though, but it's not a total loss, I will use it as a kitchen timer.


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