# Watch Winders - The Final Word



## StephenCanale (Mar 24, 2016)

Well, nothing here is ever final, but this might be my final words on the subject anyway!

There's a lot of incomplete analysis on the topic, and many otherwise valid opinions, but that do not consider all of the potential variables.

It's worth noting up front, that because each watch owner's situation and needs may be unique, not everyone will reach the same conclusion, _and that's okay_.

Ultimately, whether or not to use a winder is _primarily a personal decision_.

However, there are a number of entirely legitimate reasons that stand in favor of using an automatic winder.

*Wear & Tear
*
First, in terms of wear, tear and maintenance, it the question depends on whether the alternative is leaving your watch sitting idle overnight, for days at a time, or for weeks, months or years.

As such, the issues are as follows:


Lack of motion over long periods can eventually cause the lubricants to pool and/or move away from the jewels and other points where they should be contained, and can also allow condensation to accumulate at specific points (even in very small amounts) and this can lead to corrosion.
. 
Then, when you do start wearing the watch, excessive wear can begin to occur, even if only in small amounts.
. 
If you frequently manipulate the stem and gears to wind and adjust the time this will cause more wear on all of these parts, including the threads on screw-down crowns themselves.
. 
Manual winding causes uneven force on the stem and seals as we're generally not perfect in our application of rotational force and the force we do apply will be generally in excess of that applied by a rotor gently rotating in a two-dimensional plane. 

Many will dismiss the above based on anecdotal personal experience. Those that have had failure of stems, seals, gears and/or reversing mechanisms will attest that these are not trivial or contrived potential outcomes, though obviously they are not inevitable either.

I have personally experienced issues related to this topic on two occasions.


In one case, I had purchased 2 new identical watches with high grade ETA movements. One I wore regularly and kept on a winder otherwise. The second one I had tucked away safely for a few years. When I pulled it out for sale, I found the lubricants had gummed up the reversing gears. This resulted in a brand new, never worn watch requiring professional service.
. 
In the second case, a Zenith Elite had the stem came completely free of the movement when I unseated it to adjust the time. I was told the barrel bridge was scratched/damaged in the process and the stem required replacement as well. 

Of course, most watches will not suffer such fate, but you'll not find such occurrences unheard of by any means, either.

Given this potential, if you're not going to wear a watch for months or years, you can probably contact the manufacturer and ask the proper position to store it (likely dial-up) that would allow the lubricants to stay in place, or just plan on having it serviced when brought out of storage.

You could also put it on a winder at a very low TPD so that it wouldn't have enough winding energy to run all the time, but would run just enough to keep parts moving and lubrication flowing as it should. Alternatively, you could just give it a full wind once a month or so.

If you're going to wear it frequently enough that it won't wind all the way down and need constant resetting, then you probably don't need a winder, it would just be a matter of convenience.

But, if you find that you're having to manually wind it and/or pull out the crown and engage the gears to reset the time weekly, then a winder will probably extend the life of your watch by reducing wear and tear on the these parts that are subject to eventual failure.

Realize that the snapping in and out of the stem is a blunt force action that causes wear internally and the force applied to first engage the gears when setting the time is much more than what your watch experiences in normal operation. And, again, if it has a screw-down crown, then you're accumulating wear to those threads, and the stem seals, as well.

But, to be clear, you're certainly not going to trash your watch one way or another.

Think of this in terms of "city miles" vs "highway miles" where a winder represents the latter. Your car is not going to fall apart from city driving and your watch is not going to be immediately or severely damaged by hand setting and winding regularly either.

The cumulative effects of the decision are not going to manifest themselves in any short period of time. Realistically any measurable difference isn't going to show up for years.

Whether you use a winder or not might only mean only the difference between needing an overhaul in year 8 vs. year 10 or replacing a worn part or two in year 24 vs. year 26.

However, using a winder could save you from the costly repairs I experienced above, both which occurred within the first 3 years of ownership!

Ultimately, it's impossible to predict in advance.

Of course it's also worth pointing out that in today's disposable society it might not matter to many owners as they won't own their watch long enough to even have it serviced just once, and that if we're talking about a $200 watch then it probably doesn't matter much at all.

All of that, for a watch that will be used regularly, a winder results in the least amount of wear and tear over the long run. So, if you're talking about a serious movement, and a watch that is worn regularly and you want to minimize wear and maintain your investment, a winder is your best option.

*Dispelling Common Myths*

You'll often hear folks talk about keeping their watch on a winder in comparison to keeping a car running 24 hours a day. It's important to keep in mind that this analogy (and many other similar ones) are not particularly appropriate.

A watch:


Is not using combustion of fuel for power creating waste products that contaminate the lubricants 
Does not generate significant internal heat 
Runs at an exceptionally constant speed 
With gears that turn very slowly 

There is little wear and tear involved in a properly maintained quality watch left running at all times.

The few watchmakers I've asked about this swear that the distribution of the lubricants combined with the prevention of condensation (even a minuscule amount) being able to settle at any one point will actually lengthen the life of the watch in most every scenario.

Another myth is that a winder might over-wind your watch. That's really not possible with reputable winder and a quality timepiece, and it's certainly not going to happen if you set the Turns-Per-Day correctly. Modern wristwatches have mechanisms to protect against this.

*Accuracy!
*
It's important to point out that mechanical watches tend to be most accurate at (or near) full power, generally losing time as they wind down.

Additionally, almost all watches run at different rates of accuracy based on the physical position of the watch. By always putting the watch at rest for 8 hours or more each night, you'll exaggerate, or over-represent, the effect of the timing of just that one position (be it fast or slow).

Quality watches are adjusted so the average of all the positions results in an acceptable daily rate and leaving it in place negates the benefit of these adjustments (at least for that period of time).

Because automatic winders usually turn for a bit and then stop at a random position for quite some time (before repeating the cycle) the rotation and random resting positions helps average out positional rate differences, resulting in the best possible accuracy in most cases.

This has nothing to do with wear and tear, but it can greatly affect the enjoyment of time pieces for those who care a great deal about accuracy.

*What to Buy?*

As for the winders themselves, they are a lot like watches in that you can spend a little, a lot, or an outright fortune.

Costs will vary, based on quality, number of stations and features.

A cheap winder will work, much like the $19 Chinese automatic watch for sale on Amazon that I bought just to have something to take apart as a learning experience.

More money will get you:


Better motors that will last longer, and run much quieter.
. 
Magnetic shielding so that the motors don't magnetism your watch and affect its timing.
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Stations that can be independently set, so that each station can be turned on/off and use its own program.
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Programs that can wind Clockwise, CCW or bi-directional.
. 
Many more options for setting the Turns Per Day as well as delayed starting (since a watch doesn't normally need winding coming right off your wrist).
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LCD displays making it much easier to manage all of these functions. 

 Wolf is a popular brand but not cheap. Their 6 station winder with LCD commonly sells for $1,400 (but occasionally can be had for a few hundred less) and other decent winders can be had for probably half that if you lose the LCD and extra features.

Anything less than that might serve you well for years or might fail in 18 months... who knows, it's a crap-shoot.

Spending a significantly more is similar to any luxury item, the quality likely goes up, but it might not actually deliver much more in terms of performance.

The only solid advise that seems consistent is to make sure that if you do purchase a winder, those that hold the watch in a vertical position are preferred. While many watches will wind just fine if mounted on an angle, for some this will prevent the rotor from actuating properly and the watch may in fact, fail to wind.

Again, let me be clear: no one really "needs" to own a winder, so it's really a personal preference. However, there are many advantages, and realistically no downside, beyond the expense.


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## Paulo 8135 (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks, I'll look into it when I start buying automatics with dates again.

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Only needed if you have an auto perpetual calendar, otherwise, pretty much of a waste.


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## atdegs (Apr 6, 2017)

I agree. If you don't wear a watch, wind it once in a while. And either way you're going to end up setting your watch fairly often whether you wear it or not, unless you don't care it's set right, or it's spectacularly accurate.



Watchbreath said:


> Only needed if you have an auto perpetual calendar, otherwise, pretty much of a waste.


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## lovetheautos (Nov 29, 2017)

Watchbreath said:


> Only needed if you have an auto perpetual calendar, otherwise, pretty much of a waste.


Man, talk about dismissing the entire post.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Used to sell them.


lovetheautos said:


> Man, talk about dismissing the entire post.


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## Pencey Prep (Apr 9, 2016)

Very comprehensive information.
Its worth mentioning that Watch Winders do not work with watches that use a Kinetic Quartz movement in case anyone is thinking of buying one for that purpose.


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## Ard (Jul 21, 2014)

I used a cheap winder for a couple years and it died, my wife got me a Wolf Viceroy at Christmas and I'm currently ruining my watches with the best


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## maylebox (Feb 11, 2017)

Thanks for taking the time to share the information and your thoughts SC. I appreciate and applaud (golf clap) the effort.


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## Baka1969 (Dec 29, 2017)

I have never had a winder. I had so many watches at one time it would have been silly to spend the money. Plus, it was more money for watches. That said, I don't wear my watch every day and wouldn't mind having one. To me, if an automatic watch is designed to be worn daily, I can't see how a winder would have much adverse effects on it.


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## anrex (Jul 30, 2017)

To me, a watch winder is like giving your wife money to buy groceries for Saturday's stay home dinner while you take out your girlfriend out for a Friday dinner. Do not see the point.


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## Paulo 8135 (Mar 29, 2012)

anrex said:


> To me, a watch winder is like giving your wife money to buy groceries for Saturday's stay home dinner while you take out your girlfriend out for a Friday dinner. Do not see the point.


OK, but from your sig you have more than 1 or 2 watches?


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

I ended up with 16 (cheap but functionally very adequate) winders with double slots. So, enough for 32 watches at any given time.
I used to use them all, but came to revise my need.

Long story short, I now use a few for the following categories only:

1. Chronographs 
2. Expensive and/or rare
3. Complicated movements - perpetual, moonphase, etc.
4. Need to wear often

Under $500 Seikos and the like that I wear once a fortnight? Nope.


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## ffritz (Jun 16, 2013)

Thanks for this very informative and extensive post! I fully agree to most of it.

The only aspect where I disagree and which may be of importance, is..



StephenCanale said:


> A watch:
> 
> 
> ...
> ...


No, a mechanical movement does not at all run at a constant, slow speed. That's only the illusion we get from a smooth seconds hand glide. In reality, all gears come to a complete halt and accelerate again with every beat, so 8 times per second in the most common movements. The constant alternation between sticking friction to gliding friction makes good lubrication highly necessary. But at what point the benefits of keeping the watch running outweigh the benefits of letting it stop, I can't say. There is no general answer anyway.

In my opinion and despite popular belief, the ultimate answer to everything isn't "42", but "It depends." ;-)


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## Tricky73 (May 28, 2017)

Watchbreath said:


> Only needed if you have an auto perpetual calendar, otherwise, pretty much of a waste.


Couldn't agree more. Completely unnecessary for most watch folk


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## Zakalwe (Jun 27, 2017)

Really interesting post and an excellent read, so thank you. Whilst I find your arguments compelling, there is a "but"...

You haven't provided any evidence aside from the anecdotal, so whilst your conclusion is plausible, it isn't definitive.

The only way way of providing a definitive answer would be to run an experiment. For example, comparing *large numbers* of identical movements, some of which are always placed on winders whenever not worn whilst the others are allowed to wind down when not in use. The watches would probably need to be run without servicing over several years if not decades and the frequency of mechanical issues documented. At the end of a long but arbitrary period of time (say 10 years) a statistical analysis of all the failures would need to be performed and a determination made as to whether there is a statistically significant difference in the failure rate between the winder and the non-winder group. THEN you'd probably have to repeat the whole shebang with several completely different movements to ensure the result is due to a particular quality of automatic watch movements in general rather than just the specific movement tested.

Of course, the reason you haven't provided evidence beyond the anecdotal is because it doesn't exist and never will, because who in their right mind could be arsed to do what I've suggested in the preceding paragraph?!

So the debate will continue.


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## bigclive2011 (Mar 17, 2013)

Firstly doubt it will be the last word on this as it has been "Discussed" ad nauseam, kinda like the "My GS is better than your Rolex" threads.

Secondly thanks for taking the time to write a decent thread, must have taken you a long while, and for those new to winders it will be very informative, if they ever use the small search box that is.

My personal take is to wind.

As you pointed out wear on the crown stem is a real issue if you are constantly winding and adjusting automatic watches, and in my 40 years of watch collecting has accounted for 90% of problems I have experienced.

Also as you pointed out all watchwinders are not equal, in fact some are more equal than others (Or was that pigs??)
and I would advocate using a winder with adjustable TPD settings and the ability to reverse.


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## surfuz (Jul 2, 2017)

StephenCanale said:


> Well, nothing here is ever final, but this might be my final words on the subject anyway!
> 
> There's a lot of incomplete analysis on the topic, and many otherwise valid opinions, but that do not consider all of the potential variables.
> 
> ...


Best post that sums up all the key points.

I use a Wolf winder and a cheaper brand with adjustable TPD. Wolf is great, with the only shortcoming that even the small cuffs are really tight for folks with smaller wrists.

So let it be written. So let it be done.


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## jpfgiii (Nov 5, 2012)

I would never use a winder except for a perpetual calendar. I agree with this:


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## sticky (Apr 5, 2013)

I decided long ago not to bother with a winder but my first quartz Moonphase watch has made me reconsider that decision should I ever get a mechanical one.


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## u2bdet (Mar 5, 2011)

Very well thought out post ,OP ,but just to add ,my X-Mas gift expanded my collection enabling every piece to be a "grab n go" always ready with the correct time , 8 watch winder with independent speed controls in on a dresser in my closet right under my handgun wall safe ...makes me smile everytime I see it ....they have to be kept somewhere might as well be a winder ..IMHO


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## surfuz (Jul 2, 2017)

jpfgiii said:


> I would never use a winder except for a perpetual calendar. I agree with this:


From the video, it seems that the key point is the assumption is that winder does not let the watch relax during a person's sleeping hours.

But what if the winder stops during certain hours that mirrors a person's sleep behavior. Most of the better winders have this feature instead of continous turns.

So let it be written. So let it be done.


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## jpfgiii (Nov 5, 2012)

I've never seen a winder, cheap or otherwise, that runs continuously without resting. The bottom line is that it is extra wear and tear on the movement. The few watchmakers I have discussed this with all agree with the opinion in the video, and recommend staying away from winders.



surfuz said:


> From the video, it seems that the key point is the assumption is that winder does not let the watch relax during a person's sleeping hours.
> 
> But what if the winder stops during certain hours that mirrors a person's sleep behavior. Most of the better winders have this feature instead of continous turns.
> 
> So let it be written. So let it be done.


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## transporter305 (May 29, 2014)

Opinions like ... you know what, right?)) Every watchmaker has one. 
Not every watchmaker/seller/youtube blogger is an expert scientist though. 
Surely not the dudes in that video. They seem to lack the basic understanding of how the winder works(sorry, I'm repeating the previous posters). 
I've just timed one rotation of my winder - 8 sec. It is set for 650 TPD as recomended for my particular watch movement. So it rotates the watch for about 90 minutes in 24 hours if I'm correct? Hardly abusive to the mov't. Most likely less than if worn by the average active person. Not 24/7 as they suggest.


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## StephenCanale (Mar 24, 2016)

transporter305 said:


> Opinions like ... you know what, right?)) Every watchmaker has one.
> Not every watchmaker/seller/youtube blogger is an expert scientist though.
> Surely not the dudes in that video. They seem to lack the basic understanding of how the winder works(sorry, I'm repeating the previous posters).


Agreed. That video and the "logic" the shared was just cringe-worthy to the point that I seriously wouldn't trust them to touch any watch I own.

For anyone who considers theirs a valid argument, let's review some simple math.

The average person has a stride of about 2.5 feet, so your arm would make a full back and forth swing with every two steps (left foot/right foot) or 5 feet.

A mile is 5,280 feet so divide that by 5 and you get 1,057 rotations. (depending on the watch and your stride)

The most common required minimum TPD is 650, so when my watches are on my winder they're set to the equivalent of of .615 of a mile, or less than 2/3 of a mile to round it up to something easier to remember. And, as you indicated by timing your winder, those are nice, slow, smooth rotations.

When actually wearing your watch, most will far, far exceed the 650 TPD minimum. Especially when you consider that answering the phone, opening a door, picking up a package, etc. will all cause winding action.

You can test this for yourself if you have at least one watch with a Power Reserve complication. Run it down to zero and then just wear it and see how long it take to get to full power. Keep in mind that if your watch requires 650 TPD that's the number of rotations to maintain power. Going from 0 to Full will require quite a bit more, and you'll still likely get there in a few hours.

Anyone who tells you that a winder needlessly stresses the winding mechanism has no idea what they're talking about. More prudent advice would actually be to tell you to take your watch off before going for a walk so you don't needlessly wear out the winding mechanism. Still stupid, but actually less stupid since you could easily put more than an entire day's worth of wind on your watch in just a one-mile walk!

Of course, they could also be limiting their comments to absolute junk... which I only say because I can't discount the possibility that cheap garbage winders might exist that don't allow you to specify your number of turns-per-day and actually spin not stop. If that's the case, they should have mentioned that rather pertinent fact.

Here's some actual useful advice... if you happen to find such a winder, don't buy it!

I'd also suggest that you don't duct tape your watch to the inside of your dryer, a power drill or your bicycle wheel as a method of keeping it wound either. Needlessly silly advice I realize, but not really that much more ridiculous than what was offered on the video.

Still, winders are not a necessary accessory, and buying one is a personal decision. I just want to make sure that if you decide not to buy one, it's not for the wrong reasons.


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## transporter305 (May 29, 2014)

This>>>

<That video and the "logic" they shared was just cringe-worthy to the point that I seriously wouldn't trust them to touch any watch I own>


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## transporter305 (May 29, 2014)

Honestly I think most "anti winder" theorists simply dont want to spend the money on something they can do without. And there's nothing wrong with it. When I think of buying quality single winder($200-$1000), 3 of them for example - I am always thinking what watch I could get instead. It's a tough decision. Also I'd rather not buy a winder if I can't get a good quality one with at least Japanese or Swiss motor, preferably made in Europe or US.


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## surfuz (Jul 2, 2017)

I'm thinking, if winders are really that bad, the watch manufacturers would have void the warranty if they are used.

My 2nd Wolf (and third winder) is on the way due to expanding collection. 

So let it be written. So let it be done.


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## ravenwatch (Apr 25, 2011)

As a watch repair tech, I've had to de-magnetize several dozen watches after they had been magnetized on cheap or worn-out watch winders. Once the customers stopped leaving their watches on their winders, the problem stopped.


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## passionisto (Sep 13, 2011)

Wow! It seems to me, the final word may be different based on individual needs and preferences. The technical arguments are impressive and I think there are lots of valid points on either side. I thought it may be worthwhile to share some of my experience with winders. All my winders work in intervals and can be set to the approximate rotations required to keep each movement wound. Some rotate vertical others at an angle. I have some simple complications like the Rolex GMT II and also several high end Patek complications. I don't have any basic auto-wind watches. At this point, I hardly use a winder anymore. I still use one for two simple complications that I wear all the time, because I don't want to spend the time to set them. I used a winder for two of my high end Patek complications for a while and when one stopped winding on an angled winder, I started to analyze the technical issues and that was the end of using a winder for these watches. I rarely wear a high end complication like many collectors and now I just put them on a vertical winder once in a while for a few days. The idea is to optimize the wear while keeping the lubricants working.


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## StephenCanale (Mar 24, 2016)

ravenwatch said:


> As a watch repair tech, I've had to de-magnetize several dozen watches after they had been magnetized on cheap or worn-out watch winders. Once the customers stopped leaving their watches on their winders, the problem stopped.


Yes, as noted in the post, getting a quality winder with magnetic shielding is important to prevent this from occurring. Not that demagnetizing a watch is particularly complicated, but it's an annoyance just the same.

PS: magnetic shielding is likely to "wear out" so the issue is really just a cheap winder to begin with.



passionisto said:


> Wow! It seems to me, the final word may be different based on individual needs and preferences.


Well, my post starts with:
_It's worth noting up front, that because each watch owner's situation and needs may be unique, not everyone will reach the same conclusion, and that's okay.

Ultimately, whether or not to use a winder is primarily a personal decision.
_​
and then ends with:
_Again, let me be clear: no one really "needs" to own a winder, so it's really a personal preference.
_​
So I did try to make it clear that the "final word" was not attempting to answer whether or not anyone needed a winder. I'd venture that most owners don't have a compelling need, and will not use one.

The "final word" is an attempt to cover all of the variables that go into making the decision (including the issue with some watches not properly winding on winders that do not store watches vertically, as you experienced, and the issue of getting a good winder that has magnetic shielding, as per the comment above).

I don't think there's anything I missed, but that doesn't mean something won't yet pop up!


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## passionisto (Sep 13, 2011)

Seems I was not careful with choosing my opening. I apologize. Your analysis of technical issues of movements and winders and their interaction is the best I have seen, both regarding breadth and depth. In no way did I intend to take anything away from that. Just meant to share my own pragmatic considerations.


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## TAnderson9008 (Oct 8, 2012)

Just a curious question: why won't regular winders work for a kinetic watch?


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## the11thhour (Feb 11, 2018)

This was the most comprehensive and informative post I've ever seen on the topic, bravo! At the end of the day, it seems like more of a luxury that you might not need, but I definitely feel better about the downsides I thought came with electric winders. In any case, our entire hobby/obsession is kind of a luxury we don't REALLY need anyways, so no hate on anyone who really finds the value in a winder. I'm sure I will own one at some point, but right now I'd rather save my money for more watches


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