# Show us your rare VCMs



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Hi members,

I'd like to start a thread for those rare VCMs. By 'rare', I mean no more than 10 pieces that has ever showed up anywhere on the earth.:-d This should exclude those local small brands that only has a new dial with a printed new logo but with a common tongji movement.
It is best that the watch is from your own collection but it could also be a borrowed image as some rare pieces are really hard to catch and usually with a very high price tag.

First, is a Beijing Shaungling SB-10 model date lady watch. So far, it looks like the only example that has ever surfaced.b-) I have about 5-6 SB-10 model watches that are already not easy to find these days.

Cheers,

Zhang


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is a Zijinshan made by Nanjing Watch Factory. Its 5 jewels SN1 movement is one of the few Chinese pin-lever movements. I have only seen 2-3 with the same dial and the same fully signed casebacks over the years.

I am not sure if the Zhongshan pocket watch is a rare one. I don't remember I have seen another one.


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## CMcG (Aug 20, 2012)

Cool idea for a thread. I won't be able to contribute anything from my little collection, but it will be interesting to see what sorts of VCMs people post!


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

I don't think I have _any_ watches that rare :-( but oh, my, does your beautiful Zijinshan ever make me drool


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

CMcG said:


> Cool idea for a thread. I won't be able to contribute anything from my little collection, but it will be interesting to see what sorts of VCMs people post!


Thanks for your support! I think I have some 'rare' pieces now after a few years hunting experience. Some models that was not considered "rare" when I bought them are actually very hard to catch. The two watches I posted are examples while some VCMs that was originally thought very rare are not that hard to find such as Shanghai 623s, Shanghai military 24 jewels automatic, etc. But this is only my personal experience, I might have missed many watches that were sold.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

AlbertaTime said:


> I don't think I have _any_ watches that rare :-( but oh, my, does your beautiful Zijinshan ever make me drool


Ron, I haven't checked your collection yet these days. I believe that you must have many wonderful pieces in your museum now that are desirable to many watch collectors.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is another example of a VCM that I didn't think was a rare one when I bought it some 6 years ago, but I have never seen another one exactly like this yet since then. o|It is an earlier Dongfeng 29j automatic with luminous hands and an earlier caseback. It is much less often seen than the Shanghai 24 jewels military. The Dongfeng was sold for a higher price than the Shanghai military back in the 1970's.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is one of the early Beijing BS-2 watches with a 17 jewels movement. It is also one of the earliest VCMs I bought from an old watch maker at Baoguosi. Even though the asking price was only 50 yuan rmb IIRC, I hesitated a while before he persuaded me to buy and keep it. He said that it was a rare watch, and he told me the truth!|> I think I have seen only 2-3 such silver textural dial Beijing BS-2s for sale ever since.:-d
The earliest BS-2 movements has 17 jewels and a screw balance. The caseback is also different. A gold textural dial BS-2 is more often seen, but still I don't think I have seen more than 10 for sale.


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## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

Here are two of mine. The Dongfeng 29zuan is rare but probably more than 10 exist. But I only remember seeing one (bacr) black dialed 29zuan Sea-Gull with luminous hands.

















cheers,
gigfy


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Dunno if this one's truly rare, but not come across anything like it on my many trawls through TaoBao and the various Saskwatch, Soviet and Ron posts/websites.

Shuangling 40 Zuan auto with the weirdly holographic red dial. Seems to be one of the old stock bunch bought up by some TaoBao dealer straight from BJWAF so it could be a failed prototype (in my wildest dreams, yeah yeah).

Ric


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

AlbertaTime said:


> I don't think I have _any_ watches that rare...


However you have at least been in contact with some pieces that would certainly make the list.

(If I find a moment, I'll trawl through the posts of your last trip and pick out some choice photos ...unless somebody gets there ahed of me ;-))


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

gigfy said:


> Here are two of mine. The Dongfeng 29zuan is rare but probably more than 10 exist. But I only remember seeing one (bacr) black dialed 29zuan Sea-Gull with luminous hands.
> 
> View attachment 1166859
> 
> ...


Thanks! These Dongfeng automatic are very rare IMHO.The black dial Dongfeng with luminous hands with original quality passport is a lucky find. Congratulations!:-!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> View attachment 1166878
> 
> 
> View attachment 1166879
> ...


That is a VERY RARE vcm IMHO! It is the rarest of the already rare Beijing Shuangling 40 zuan automatic watches. Congratulations! Didn't I say it is beautiful?!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I bought this arabic number dial Beijing BS-2 18 jewels watch long time ago when Beijing BS-2s were still easy to find in Beijing area for about 50 yuan RMB. This type of Beijing watch reminds me of my very first watch when I started to earn my living at the age of 18. My brother bought a Beijing BS-2 for me and another one for himself then when he also left the family at the age of 15! |>The money for the watches were from my parents for 120 yuan RMB each then.;-)

I don't think I have seen more than 10 such dial BS-2s for sale since about 5 years ago. The original owner took great care of the watch over the years.It is in amazing condition for a 40+ years watch.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two versions of the much sought after Beijing model I watch. A total of some 3,000 Beijing I watches were made between 1958-1961, and they were never officially sold on the market. Today, this watch is hard to find in any conditions. I paid almost 300 yuan RMB for each a few years ago.o| Today, it would be a lucky find at the same price. :-d
The early variation has a chrome case, the movement has a screw balance, and the caseback has slots for opening. The dial is also different. My example has a very small s/n of 186, probably the earliest Beijing model I watch so far.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A later version of Beijing model I watch with a steel case, and a smooth balance. It is not that much easier to find than the early version according to my observation. I don't think I have seen more than 10 watches for sale over the years.b-) I wonder if those sleeves are of solid gold?!o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Not a particularly sought-after watch, but a rare and exortic one. It is in fact a 1/50 s Diamond stopwatch with a new dial for some military applications. I think I can still use it for a 100 meter sprint race.:-d


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## hked (Oct 5, 2009)

Nothing as nice or rare as the ones posted so far, but here are my humble offerings.

17 zuan Beijing with sexy textured dial








Sea-Gull ST5 Railroad - not that rare, but part of the SG triplets!








Sea-Gull ST5 Department of Geology and Mineral Resources








Sea-Gull ST5 Antarctic








The all-important case backs!!!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is a news for Guangzhou Five Goats watch company ( I hope that is not their real official name :-d)

¹ãÖÝÊÖ±í½øÈëÎåÑò±íÒµÊ±´ú - ÖÐ¹úÖÓ±í - Ãû±íÍ¨|ÊÖ±íÂÛÌ³|Ãû±íÂÛÌ³|¹ú²ú±í|»³±íÂÛÌ³|×î×¨ÒµµÄÖÓ±í½»Á÷|ÖÓ±íÆ½Ì¨|ÖÓ±íÍøÕ¾|watchlead|ÂÛÌ³|ÊÖ±íÆ·ÅÆ|ÊÖ±í×ÊÑ¶|±íÓÑ¾ãÀÖ²¿|²ØÆ·½»Á÷|Ãû±íÍøÕ¾|Ãû±íÍ¨ÍøÕ¾|ÖÓ±íÂÛÌ³ Ã½Ìå»¥¶¯ Íó±íÖ÷ÌâÉçÇø - Powered by Discuz!

Our member Liwei just paid a visit to the company and to celebrate the event, I will post a rare Guangzhou made one of the earliest Chinese dive watch with a modefied KBG-2 21 jewels automatic movement.

SG3型羊城牌机械男表单机机芯
1961年7月，广州钟表厂筹建处（广州手表厂前身）设计出羊城牌SG3机械男表机芯 ，1966年7月投产。
1972年SG-3型手表在全国质量评比中名列前茅。
1973年转产SZ1A型手表（统机）
1984年投产KBG2机械女表机芯。该产品获轻工部优秀新产品奖，获1984年-1985年度广东省技术开发成果二等奖；
1989年10月，广州手表厂率先开发生产出自动单历男表；
1991年，开发生产出自动双历男表；
1993年，开发生产出多功能7针自动男表；
1998年，开发生产出动能显示自动男表；
2000年，开发生产出小三针日历自动男表。
2004年，广州手表厂开始设计DG8000陀飞轮手表，2005年10月投产并进入市场。

According to a brief history of the factory, This watch was made since October 1989, and the KBG2 lady watch movement launched in 1984 was awarded 2nd class technology progress prize of Guangdong province 1984-1985.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is an image of a very rare Guangzhou SG3 date watch. SG3 movement was made on an imported Swiss Enicar production line so it is similar to Beijing's BS-2 movement. The two factories shared the imported equipment in early 1960's. But some parts are not interchangeable between SG3 and BS-2 movements. I am not aware of a BS-2 watch with a date feature.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Is KBG-2 the same as SG6ZB?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> Is KBG-2 the same as SG6ZB?


Sorry, I have no idea what a SG6ZB looks like. The model designation of Guangzhou is confusing. Is there a KBG-1 movement? And what is a SG1 and SG2 before SG3?


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

Chascomm said:


> However you have at least been in contact with some pieces that would certainly make the list.
> 
> (If I find a moment, I'll trawl through the posts of your last trip and pick out some choice photos ...unless somebody gets there ahed of me ;-))


Well, I have touched a few deliciously rare ones, and I was blessed to be able to do that in China...so feel free to troll and post. I'd love to see what impresses you 

As for my humble collection...

I don't think this is all that rare, but I don't know who else might have one in the western world ( I have 2)... and it means a lot to me because I received it from my brother Ma Rong.









I'm fortunate enough to own an ST-7...there's plenty more than 5 of 'em around, but not that many...









Again, there are more than 5 of these Shizhi too, but they aren't all that common and I love what they represent:

















...and there's only about 150 some-odd of these in existence ;-)









..and although it isn't a watch, it's about a watch, and I think it's quite rare...this publication:

























...and this thread might be one of the threads Chascomm is talking about.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

gigfy said:


> Here are two of mine. The Dongfeng 29zuan is rare but probably more than 10 exist. But I only remember seeing one (bacr) black dialed 29zuan Sea-Gull with luminous hands.
> 
> View attachment 1166859
> 
> ...


If I recall correctly, I remember when you were purchasing those beauties...in the very heady early days of our Taobao discoveries; you and I exchanging messages on Trade Manager and contacting sellers directly trying to make sense of the smorgasbord we were encountering. I remember feeling like a kid who'd discovered a candy shop.

That was only a very short while after Chascomm had remarked to me: "What? You just threw out a net and they swam into it?"  and I had no idea at all how my life was going to change.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I believe that many not so 'rare' VCMs could become rare collectables soon. According to the Guangzhou news in the previous post, two famous Swiss companies sold their brand names to "Guangzhou Five Goats Watch Company, Ltd".:-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Both Shanghai 592 and A592 mid-sized watches are rare with a modefied A581 movement, but a 592 with luminous hands are even rarer. I don't think I have seen more than 5 of these for sale in any conditions. All Shanghai 581,591,592,611,etc are experimental products until 611, and 1120 model watches that has a SS1 officially designated movement.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

One of the earliest Shanghai a581 model watches with a S/S case, a textural dial and luminous hands is a rare and sought after A581 watch. I don't think I have seen more than 5 or 10 for sale. Its case is smaller than later 581s, the caseback has slots for opening, and there is no date under the balance. The side of the upper plate is polished and chrome-plated that is also a way to tell an earlier movement.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

These blind man VCMs are rarely seen for sale, or perhaps I avoided them instinctively? ;-) My eyesight used to be very sharp even just 10 years ago.|>
The black dialed one is a Gold Coin brand watch made by Shanghai Stopwatch Factory, but with an unsigned tongji movement! The Zhenzhu brand watch is well used which indicates its good quality.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Sorry my mistake; I meant SG6ZS, which is the SG5 ladies watch movement on a larger main plate with auto-winding and date. and it looks identical to the one that you showed. 

SG4 is their Tongji movement. Before SG3 there were two prototypes developed in 1958 that never entered production. Perhaps those were SG1 and SG2?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> Sorry my mistake; I meant SG6ZS, which is the SG5 ladies watch movement on a larger main plate with auto-winding and date. and it looks identical to the one that you showed.
> 
> SG4 is their Tongji movement. Before SG3 there were two prototypes developed in 1958 that never entered production. Perhaps those were SG1 and SG2?


Thanks!|> So the SG1,SG2 would look like Shanghai A581's movement or Nanjing's Roamer copy movement? I never heard of anyone talked about them. I know little about their movements. Is the SG5 the same as KBG-2?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

The Seagull 1984 Olympics commemorative watch is the only example so far that I have seen. I am sure there are more out there, but those who got them must have kept them in a safe place and then forgot where it is hidden after so many years.o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Those coloured dial Great Wall brand watch with a SB5 movement are rarely seen for sale these days. The dark green , almost black dial one is much less often seen than the dark red ones. However, they might have appeared more than 10 times , but probably not in this nice conditions.|> Its Chinese characters brand name is not in Mao's style that is quite unusual for a VCM.:think:


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## CMcG (Aug 20, 2012)

OK, I'm throwing my hat in the ring despite the risk of showing my VCM naivete here...

In many ways this is a garden variety Shanghai, but I've never seen another ZSH in a case quite like this one. The minute hand being long enough to touch the indices and the date function are nice touches, but what seems rare to me is the _shape of the lugs_.

Experts, would you please correct me if I'm wrong?


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

Awesome thread ! Thanks for starting this Soviet!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> Awesome thread ! Thanks for starting this Soviet!


You are welcome!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

CMcG said:


> OK, I'm throwing my hat in the ring despite the risk of showing my VCM naivete here...
> 
> In many ways this is a garden variety Shanghai, but I've never seen another ZSH in a case quite like this one. The minute hand being long enough to touch the indices and the date function are nice touches, but what seems rare to me is the _shape of the lugs_.
> 
> ...


This is a later Shanghai ZSH watch. The case with that lugs is uncommon IMO, but not very rare. I think a titanium plated gold color case of this type is much less often seen. The watch should be durable and accurate with a slow set date movement that you could find in a Shanghai 7220 model watch and a Shanghai 7220 model watch is quite rare IMHO.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An earlier textural dial Meihualu pocket watch with a red second hand, and used by a railway employee is quite hard to find. I don't recall ever seen another one like it. 
Those with words or signs for military or railway are also very uncommon.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

The 1984 Antarctic Seagull commemorative watch may be hard to find, but the bronze medal that came with the watch is RARE! It is the only one I have ever seen anywhere. So it is as rare as the 'Five Star' watch displayed at Seagull museum at the moment.:-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Believe it or not, this is the only waving feet I have ever seen anywhere, even on the beaches.:-d:roll:


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## -hj- (Dec 28, 2012)

soviet said:


> The Seagull 1984 Olympics commemorative watch is the only example so far that I have seen. I am sure there are more out there, but those who got them must have kept them in a safe place and then forgot where it is hidden after so many years.o|


Exactly the same like one. Except without the Olympics commemorative thing..















Belongs to my friend, I recommended him the seller. If it turns out to be a super rare watch, I am really gonna regret not getting this for myself.. 

Also, to borrow a pic from zamazama from the topic a few threads down..









Same watch, but I noticed in the caseback the numbers are different. Looks like G22 or 022 and the one from my friend's one is G24 or 024... production number?


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## -hj- (Dec 28, 2012)

Seems like it says G16 on that one.... am I on to something here or just I am thinking too much?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

-hj- said:


> View attachment 1169769
> 
> 
> Seems like it says G16 on that one.... am I on to something here or just I am thinking too much?


Thanks for sharing. That is a beautiful and rare Seagull IMHO. I don't think I have seen it before. The two cases are almost the same except the lugs. It would be amazing if your watch was also made some 30 years ago!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A solid looking Seagull diver watch. It is one of the earlier Chinese diver's watch with a screw-down crown, and it is not often seen. But I am impressed of not the watch, but the very rare and complex bracelet that should not be used on a humble watch such as this 3ATM Seagull, but a PP diver watch if there is one.:-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> This is a later Shanghai ZSH watch. The case with that lugs is uncommon IMO, but not very rare. I think a titanium plated gold color case of this type is much less often seen. The watch should be durable and accurate with a slow set date movement that you could find in a Shanghai 7220 model watch and a Shanghai 7220 model watch is quite rare IMHO.


I have only one of this among my dozens of Shanghai 7xxx model watches, so I think it is rare.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

I saw this today while vcm hunting. It's a Beijing watch BS 1. I think it's quite rare but then I may be wrong. What do you guys think? Is it considered rare? I am not sure if the dial has been changed as it looked in extremely good condition. Would love to hear your views as I am seriously considering picking it up but the seller is asking for quite a high price.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> I saw this today while vcm hunting. It's a Beijing watch BS 1. I think it's quite rare but then I may be wrong. What do you guys think? Is it considered rare? I am not sure if the dial has been changed as it looked in extremely good condition. Would love to hear your views as I am seriously considering picking it up but the seller is asking for quite a high price.
> 
> View attachment 1170346


It looks everything is wrong for a BS-1 model watch. You must have a look at the movement that is not that easy to fake. I would avoid this one as I never saw a BS-1 like it. I would not write Since-xxxxx on a watch dial that is only 2-3 years old.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> It looks everything is wrong for a BS-1 model watch. You must have a look at the movement that is not that easy to fake. I would avoid this one as I never saw a BS-1 like it. I would not write Since-xxxxx on a watch dial that is only 2-3 years old.


The movement is BS-1 as I checked it but I am feeling uneasy about the dial. Looked too new and also I wasn't sure what it was that make it wrong until you point out the "since xxxx". Thanks for sharing your views Soviet.. And for the coaching too  will give it a miss then, after all part of fun is the hunt


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> The movement is BS-1 as I checked it but I am feeling uneasy about the dial. Looked too new and also I wasn't sure what it was that make it wrong until you point out the "since xxxx". Thanks for sharing your views Soviet.. And for the coaching too  will give it a miss then, after all part of fun is the hunt


It is not easy to find an original Beijing BS-1 in decent conditions, and especially in good prices today. It would be easier to find one of the earliest Beijing tongji movement watches that has no brand name on the dial, an earlier BS-2, or an earlier Changcheng SB-5 before they become rare 'collectibles'.

I just saw one of the earlier Beijing tongji movement watch posted by collector 如风时间。 Thanks. |>The movement was made in 1973.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Some popular brand watches such as a Seagull with an uncommon dial are nice items to add to your VCM collection IMO. I don't remember ever seeing more than 5 of the red dial one.b-)|>


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

I just got this Beijing Watch BS-2, which took me a while to find. Not sure how rare is it but was told by a few people including Mr Yang the owner of shop #90 in Dongtai Lu Shanghai that it's not easy to find. He has one but wasn't for sale as he is collecting that for himself.

The movement is definitely BS-2 and the dial seems original but i believe the case back has been replaced. The crown has the Beijing Watch logo on it. What do you guys think? Real thing? Slightly rare?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Congratulations! It looks correct to me as a later 18 jewels BS-2.|> It looks in excellent condition! These are not that rare, but one in excellent cosmetic condition is very hard to find now, and if found usually demands a very high price.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

My collection is really still at infancy so definitely have none of the awesome rare pieces like so many of you have, the long list of WUS members captured by Ron earlier. Nevertheless throwing a couple of mine to this thread so that I can contribute instead of just sucking information  hopefully this will be an educational process for me as a vcm collector. So thanks all in advance for your sharing and coaching 

This is a Shanghai ShuangLi with ZSH movement with dual day/date which I gotten from my most recent shanghai trip. Was looking for a Chunlei dual day/date vcm with Chinese day but finding it extremely hard to find one then I stumbled on this, which was also quite hard to find ( I think). So far most vcm sellers in the flea market who saw me wearing this told me that it's not easy to find this as it has just started production when the shanghai factory went bust so there were limited pieces sold. Of course there were the NOS but not that many of the original ones.

What do you think? Are there truths to what i have been told ?


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> Congratulations! It looks correct to me as a later 18 jewels BS-2.|> It looks in excellent condition! These are not that rare, but one in excellent cosmetic condition is very hard to find now, and if found usually demands a very high price.


Thanks ! How do you tell if its a later year or earlier? This one I have is it from around late 60s?


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Another one that I suspect is rare, but I'm totally unsure if in fact there're a hundred thousand identical ones sitting in bottom drawers the length and breadth of China.

It's (supposed to be) a Yanan SHI-102, and the dial isn't much like anything I've seen trawling Saskwatch and Ron's collections. I really can't remember if anyone's already confirmed the authenticity of the movement. One of the ST5 glass backs fitted well (enough) sothe movement's looking very nice at the back. But part of me winces as the original backs on these VCMs are so beautiful already. Date should be ca. 1962 if it all pans out.

My pitch for rareness is due to the painted white dial (see where the paint meets the markers?) with the odd inner circle that looks like applied metal. (updated) Both the inner circle and the second markers seem to be made by scraping off the white paint. Can't see someone doing this outside of a factory, so I'm guessing at least the dial's original.

Believe it or not, I picked this up on Ebay UK for just £10. It turned up on an elasticated metal bracket that looked older than god, with gunk on the end links that made me think bracelet and watch met each other many decades ago. Forgot to photo the bracelet and movement and I'm on holiday out of the country so that'll have to wait.

Ric


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> Thanks ! How do you tell if its a later year or earlier? This one I have is it from around late 60s?


I have many versions of BS-2 watches from the earliest 17 jewels screw balance, to later 17 jewels smooth balance, and even later 17 jewels with a new slightly bigger case and dial such as yours and finally those 18 jewels BS-2s. So if a BS-2 has a 18 jewels movement, it is a later one IMO. Many of the 160,000 BS-2 watches were dystroyed when the factory had a trade policy to promote their new watch sales in the 1970's IIRC. So today not too many are left in this condition.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Congratulations Ric for a beautiful red logo Yanan.:-! 
Yanan watches with a SHI-xxx model number are said to be experimental runs (test runs), so it is sure a rare watch IMHO. However, I have seen a collector who showed at least a few dozens of this watch!o| So he left very few for others, and I have managed to get only one red logo Yanan in less than ideal condition, and believe me, I tried very hard!o|


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks soviet for starting this thread. The pictures you and others have posted are truly drool-inducing 

From my collection, a 19 jewel Qionghua. It's the only one I've ever seen.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> Thanks soviet for starting this thread. The pictures you and others have posted are truly drool-inducing
> 
> From my collection, a 19 jewel Qionghua. It's the only one I've ever seen.


Many thanks saskwatch for sharing with us your rare and desirable VCMs. I am sure more will come from your excellent collection of VCMs. But this 19 jewels Qionghua is the first one I have ever seen! The movement is signed ZQH that makes it one of the rarest tongji movements. Congratualtions.:-!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Guangzhou Camera Factory made a FIVE GOATS tlr around 1970 IIRC,and it is said the tlr is collectible for its funny brand name alone!:-d Then Guangzhou Watch Factory must have heard of the news and produced a 'Five Rams' brand lady watch for export. I think Five Rams is a better name as a nickname of Guangzhou. Then a couple of days ago, our member Liwei visited a newly established watch company and its English name is Five Goats again! So Guangzhou's nickname could originally really mean five goats?!o|

This Five Rams lady watch with an imported movement is a rare one in Beijing area. I don't remember ever seen another one yet.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy, I just saw your Shanghai day/date 7621 quick set watch. It is indeed a quite rare watch, and it is a good quality one. I feel it may be as rare as Shanghai 24 jewels military. I even think I saw more 24 jewels than this model watch, but I could be wrong.


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## Perseus333 (Jun 5, 2012)

Soviet - thanks for starting this very interesting thread. I have a few very rare VCM's in my collection including one you would be very pleased to see! I don't have time to take pictures but I will post them later in the next few days when I get some free time.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Jinggangshan, like Yanan and Red Flag, is one of the brand names with a hint of Chinese revolution. This earlier Jinggangshan with an unsigned ST5 look-alike movement is quite rare. I have not seen another one in better condition with this movement. Later Jinggangshan watches with a tongji movement are more often seen.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Perseus333 said:


> Soviet - thanks for starting this very interesting thread. I have a few very rare VCM's in my collection including one you would be very pleased to see! I don't have time to take pictures but I will post them later in the next few days when I get some free time.


Thanks! I am holding, no, we are holding our breath for that one.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Shanghai Nr.3 Watch Factory made a Sea Lion brand watch, and the earliest Sea Lion watches has a SS1 movement of their own. These have a very nice caseback that I think it is collectible for the caseback alone especially if you could find one like that on the left. A Sea Lion with that caseback is quite rare IMO.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An earlier pie-pan dial Zuanshi in a S/S case is a rare watch. I don't recall seeing another example with the same caseback. A clean early slow beat SM1 Zuanshi is hard to find now that maybe not be as rare as the S/S one.


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## Fandegrue (Jul 17, 2011)

Not very rare, yet not that common too... Shanghai 7621.








Envoyé depuis mon GT-N7100 en utilisant Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> bcy, I just saw your Shanghai day/date 7621 quick set watch. It is indeed a quite rare watch, and it is a good quality one. I feel it may be as rare as Shanghai 24 jewels military. I even think I saw more 24 jewels than this model watch, but I could be wrong.


Cool! So glad that I bought it!


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

A HuangHe with hanzi logo is uncommon and with a textured double phoenix is rare, but both together...


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> A HuangHe with hanzi logo is uncommon and with a textured double phoenix is rare, but both together...


Congratulations! It is a rare one!:-! It looks like the S/S case is a bigger one of 37mm without the crown? Those bigger cased Zhongshan and Huanghe are sought after by some collectors too.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rare Mudan (peony) SB-5 made by Beijing Watch Factory. It is much rarer than another Mudan made by Luoyang Watch factory with a tongji movement. It is much less often seen than a Great-wall SB5 or other Beijing SB5 movement watches.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Zhongshan watches with a double dragons dial are rare. I caught two with slightly different dials.b-) I am not sure which is even rarer. I don't remember even seen each one for sale. Zhongshan watches also have many types of cases and casebacks.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Zhongshan watches are not very rare, but these two in very nice conditions with big S/S cases, early mushroom crowns, sword hands,or a red arrow second hand, and with an uncommon dial are sought after nowadays.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> Congratulations! It is a rare one!:-! It looks like the S/S case is a bigger one of 37mm without the crown? Those bigger cased Zhongshan and Huanghe are sought after by some collectors too.


Thanks! I didn't know, so I had to measure. You are correct: 37 mm.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

I've never seen another double calendar Wuhan.










It has quick-set day and date, but unfortunately they don't work. The odds of finding another for replacement parts look slim.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> Thanks! I didn't know, so I had to measure. You are correct: 37 mm.


Someone said that they are 37mm size, but I checked a few of mine, and they are from 36.6-36.8mm. I am not sure if we talked about the same cases.

I noted that there are so many types of cases for Zhongshan and Zijinshan brand watches. I will give them some investigation when I have time.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is an earlier YingXiong (hero) brand watch made by Hangzhou Watch Factory. It seems every parts of the watch was supplied by Beijing Watch Factory. Even the blank caseback is a one from Beijing if look from the inside. The unsigned SB5 movement has a '次‘ stamped under the balance that is quite common for SB5 movements. I don't think I have seen another such Yingxiong yet.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> I've never seen another double calendar Wuhan.
> 
> .........
> 
> It has quick-set day and date, but unfortunately they don't work. The odds of finding another for replacement parts look slim.


That is a very rare quick set day/date VCM! Congratulations!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An earlier Shanghai 7221 date watch with a very rare case. I need to find more examples to confirm it is the original case. The watch has an earlier batch number of 7221-604. So far, it is the only such 7221 model watch I have seen.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is a very rare watch of a very common brand, a Shanghai 7120 model watch with a rare case. I don't recall seeing more than 3-4 of these over the years. The case makes the watch look much thinner than those common 7120 watches. The stainless steel used could also be a higher grade one. A 7120 watch with luminous hands is not common either.b-)


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> Someone said that they are 37mm size, but I checked a few of mine, and they are from 36.6-36.8mm. I am not sure if we talked about the same cases.
> 
> I noted that there are so many types of cases for Zhongshan and Zijinshan brand watches. I will give them some investigation when I have time.


They probably are the same. Admittedly my method of measurement was less than scientific.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

At first I thought this Xiongmao with a sitting panda logo was somewhat uncommon, but I didn't know it was quite rare until someone whose opinion I trust informed me last year.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> At first I thought this Xiongmao with a sitting panda logo was somewhat uncommon, but I didn't know it was quite rare until someone whose opinion I trust informed me last year.
> 
> ........


This is indeed a rare Xiongmao watch. I don't recall ever seeing another one. I have another type of sitting panda logo Xiongmao that I think is slightly more often seen.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A Jingtie lady watch is a rare one. I have seen less than 5 of these over the years. It has an unsigned ST6D look alike automatic movement, but according to its dial, an uncommon 24 jewels one.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Zhufeng watches are not uncommon, but this one has an unusual caseback and blue logo.



















I think this other one's case is uncommon too.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

It is the first time I saw that Zhufeng's caseback. There are faint Chinese characters on the caseback '鉴定纪念‘。Could this Zhufeng be one of the first batches that were sent for approval?

I like the green Zhufeng logo, it seems less often seen than other Zhufeng logos, but its unusual s/s case is the second one I have ever seen.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I said I saw another Shanghai 7120 with this dial, but it is still not exactly the same as mine. So each one is the only one I have ever seen. These kind of rare VCMs could cost only a few dollars, and a 7120 could be easily adjusted to within seconds/day.|>


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> Shanghai Nr.3 Watch Factory made a Sea Lion brand watch, and the earliest Sea Lion watches has a SS1 movement of their own. These have a very nice caseback that I think it is collectible for the caseback alone especially if you could find one like that on the left. A Sea Lion with that caseback is quite rare IMO.


I saw one which is the same as the one on the left once but didn't buy it as I thought its a little pricey. Now I am kicking my self for not doing it. Have not seen one since then


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> It is the first time I saw that Zhufeng's caseback. There are faint Chinese characters on the caseback '鉴定纪念'。Could this Zhufeng be one of the first batches that were sent for approval?
> 
> I like the green Zhufeng logo, it seems less often seen than other Zhufeng logos, but its unusual s/s case is the second one I have ever seen.


Thanks. I don't know if it was one of the first, but it appears possible. The STZ1 movement is probably earlier than the ones found in most Zhufeng watches.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

From the information I could find, Shancheng brand watches with SS1-style movements were experimental and never mass produced. Other than the mismatched hands, it's possible that this one's entirely authentic.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

It is the first time I saw a Shangcheng 7001 with a signed SS1 in-house movement!:-! It is interesting that the Chinese characters at 6 hours are not Chongqing, but also hanzi 山城 （Shangcheng).b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I have seen at least 15-20 Shanghai 7221 date watches, but this is the only one with a textural dial, so I think it is rare. I think 7221 model watches could have started with batch number of 601. The earliest one in my collection is 7221-603. I believe that for VCMs, the earlier ones usually has a better quality as these were expensive items then.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

A slow-beat (18,000 bph) tongji prototype is rare. Unfortunately this one's inside a black dial Sea-Gull, which is unlikely to be its original watch.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> A slow-beat (18,000 bph) tongji prototype is rare. Unfortunately this one's inside a black dial Sea-Gull, which is unlikely to be its original watch.


There are some interesting and rare tongji movements. Here is one found in a Shanghai Yinling brand watch. It is an economy version of tongji like those found in Qionghua brand watches, but this one is different. I am not sure who made it. It seems signed JHB. The Yinling brand watch is not very rare.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> There are some interesting and rare tongji movements. Here is one found in a Shanghai Yinling brand watch. It is an economy version of tongji like those found in Qionghua brand watches, but this one is different. I am not sure who made it. It seems signed JHB. The Yinling brand watch is not very rare.


Here is another example, a Shanghai Huangguan watch has an unsigned tongji movement, and a date version Huangguan has a movement signed CSZ. These are some uncommon tongji movements.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks, soviet, for sharing your excellent examples. :-!

CSZ is the code for Changshu Watch Factory. I have a Changshu brand watch, but I don't know if its 3S1 movement is original because I've never seen another.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

soviet said:


> I have seen at least 15-20 Shanghai 7221 date watches, but this is the only one with a textural dial, so I think it is rare. I think 7221 model watches could have started with batch number of 601. The earliest one in my collection is 7221-603. I believe that for VCMs, the earlier ones usually has a better quality as these were expensive items then.


I'm bewitched by that dial.

Ric


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> I'm bewitched by that dial.
> 
> Ric


Thanks for your support. I believe that you have one of the red dial Beijing day/date ZB-SK watches. No more than 5 of them have surfaced so far IIRC. I think the two windows earlier version is also quite rare with a similar textual dial.|>


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

My brushed dial BJWAF is branded as a Shuangling and has the black date windows. I've become almost embarrassed to show it on a WRUW thread because I get so many "likes" and usually a PM asking me where someone might find another one.

Rare? Well, not really as a few of us here have something like it now. Special in its own way? Yep. Beautiful, even if there were 100,000 of them out there? Yes.

Ric


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

And then I have this insanely red dialled SZB-1C which I think is truly special in every way. No date window, but of course there's that wonderful auto doing its stuff in there.

This 40 Zuan and the 20 Zuan brushed dial from my precious post are my two favorate VCMs bar none. Makes me feel sorry for the WuYi and the Sea-Gulls, which I also love to bits. These two might just be my favorate Chinese watches of any era, and you know I have a bunch of modern BJWAFs that I could never live without: ZhuFeng, BeiHai, ZunDa, ZunJei... and my new love, the Model 1 Reissue.

Please don't anyone start thinking that I'm crowing here. I'm just giggling at the wonderful world of VCMs (and modern Chinese watches) that I didn't even know existed this time last year.

(sigh)

Ric


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

soviet said:


> Thanks for your support. I believe that you have one of the red dial Beijing day/date ZB-SK watches. No more than 5 of them have surfaced so far IIRC. I think the two windows earlier version is also quite rare with a similar textual dial.|>


Last point: clearly BJWAF had a thing for this holographic effect red dial. Other VCMs go for the (lovely) red lacquer which I also love. But the holographic red dial is... shocking (the best word I can think of) in direct sunlight.

Ric


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Soviet, your red dial double calendar Beijing was always one of my favourites in your collection. When I finally saw another for sale, I grabbed it without hesitation (and a green one... and a blue one)










Ric, you chose an excellent collection of Beijing watches. All beauties :-!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> Soviet, your red dial double calendar Beijing was always one of my favourites in your collection. When I finally saw another for sale, I grabbed it without hesitation (and a green one... and a blue one)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are some most beautiful vintage Chinese watches. The colors are so 'bold' that in the old days only an emperor dared to use them. The gold and red colors of some Beijing VCMs resembled that of some imperial palaces.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A Shanghai A591 with this dial is a rare one. I have seen a few dials with the same index but always without the Hanzi 中国 上海 above 17 zuan. This is the only one I have ever seen IIRC.


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## MACHENE.Tech (Nov 13, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> View attachment 1180129
> 
> 
> And then I have this insanely red dialled SZB-1C which I think is truly special in every way. No date window, but of course there's that wonderful auto doing its stuff in there.
> ...


I want a 40 Zuan Shuangling so bad.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

MACHENE.Tech said:


> I want a 40 Zuan Shuangling so bad.


qxvintagewatch TaoBao

qxvintagewatch on TaoBao still has a few 40 Zuans available at various price points (ca. RMB 1,800, RMB 988). Horrible website to navigate, so I just put the entire stock (37 pages) into price sequence, go to page 37 (the most expensive) and then walk backwards wading through the Omegas and modern Sea-Gulls until I get to the VCMs.

I went via TaoBaoNow and didn't have any problems at all.

They also have a few colour dial ZB-SKs at around RMB 1,100.

Go on (sniff sniff, sob) go and mop 'em all up. I can take it. (waaaaaaaaaaa!)

Ric


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

I know others here have this world time watch, but I don't think we've seen 10 yet.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is a watch that makes you feel cool in a hot Summer day. It is a Dongmei (winter plum) with a cool dial.b-) The city QIQIHAR is very close to Russia.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> Here is a watch that makes you feel cool in a hot Summer day. It is a Dongmei (winter plum) with a cool dial.b-) The city QIQIHAR is very close to Russia.


Cool dial; reminds me of a DNA panel ;-)

The bracelet end links are obviously from a different case style but is the rest of the band original to the watch?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Cool dial; reminds me of a DNA panel ;-)
> 
> The bracelet end links are obviously from a different case style but is the rest of the band original to the watch?


The bracelet is obviously from another watch. Thanks for the reminder. I didn't notice it.|>


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

ZuanShi 502 stopwatch (180,000 bph)










ZuanShi 501 (360,000 bph)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

These two Zuanshi 501,502 stopwatches are very rare. Congratulations! There is currently a 502 listed on a Chinese site for RMB 25,000 yuan only.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A Beijing's plain 40 zuan Shaungling without date, and a Nanjing Yuhua manual wind. Both have a dial with very fine stripes. A day/date 40 zuan is very rare. I don't remember who posted an image of that watch on this forum. I never see that watch in person.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

This Yanan quartz day/date with this dial is the only one I have ever seen. It still looks like a vintage mechanical watch of 1970's. Its caseback is signed 永久（forever) in Chinese, and a date July 1987. They may have appeared on some auction sites very often. I just didn't pay much attention to those quartz watches.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> These two Zuanshi 501,502 stopwatches are very rare. Congratulations! There is currently a 502 listed on a Chinese site for RMB 25,000 yuan only.


Thanks! I must have got a real bargain. ;-) I doubt it will sell at that price, however.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> A Beijing's plain 40 zuan Shaungling without date, and a Nanjing Yuhua manual wind. Both have a dial with very fine stripes.


Both are beautiful. :-!



soviet said:


> A day/date 40 zuan is very rare. I don't remember who posted an image of that watch on this forum. I never see that watch in person.


Yes, I posted it.










It's the only watch I've ever seen with pinyin day.

I also have a day/date Yuhua, but the dial is much plainer than yours.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> Thanks! I must have got a real bargain. ;-) I doubt it will sell at that price, however.


Some sellers often listed rare pieces with a very high price only for showing-off. They didn't mean for sale with a crazy price.o|


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## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

soviet said:


> Some sellers often listed rare pieces with a very high price only for showing-off. They didn't mean for sale with a crazy price.o|


I would love to have that marketing tactic!!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

gigfy said:


> I would love to have that marketing tactic!!


I really admired Leica camera's marketing strategy. I will see if my misprinted Seagull automaitc could also fetch a collector VCM's price one day.;-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

There are some common brand VCMs with a very rare case or dial. They may not be very interesting technically but could be bought for just a few yuans. Here are a couple of examples. I don't think I saw another one of each over the years.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> There are some common brand VCMs with a very rare case or dial. They may not be very interesting technically but could be bought for just a few yuans. Here are a couple of examples. I don't think I saw another one of each over the years.


Here is a thread on a Chinese site about a Xian made chronograph that is said to have some Chinese improvements. So it may be technically interesting. However, I am not sure I understand what they discussed. The Captain brand watches were said to be prototypes, and the earliest batch were different from later ones.
The Captain chronograph watches seemed easier to find than Tianjin's original 304 model watches, and sells for a much lower price.

ÒÕ±íÂÛÌ³-×¨ÒµÖÓ±í½»Á÷ÂÛÌ³ - Powered by Discuz!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> Here is a thread on a Chinese site about a Xian made chronograph that is said to have some Chinese improvements. So it may be technically interesting. However, I am not sure I understand what they discussed. The Captain brand watches were said to be prototypes, and the earliest batch were different from later ones.
> The Captain chronograph watches seemed easier to find than Tianjin's original 304 model watches, and sells for a much lower price.
> 
> ÒÕ±íÂÛÌ³-×¨ÒµÖÓ±í½»Á÷ÂÛÌ³ - Powered by Discuz!


Here is a movement image I borrowed from an auction site. They sell from 2000-6000 RMB yuan depending on styles and features. I may buy one one day as an example of the 1st Chinese designed chronograph.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I picked up a couple of watches also made in Xian a few months ago, and they were also prototypes IMO. The 26 jewels Chunlei brand day/date automatic has a newly designed movement. This was the factory's attempt to make a thinner automatic watch with quick set day/date feature. These watches are not often seen, but they are not very rare either.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

I'm not posting these pictures of my WuYi because it's rare ('cos it ain't) but simply because it's beautiful.

Ric


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## Fandegrue (Jul 17, 2011)

soviet said:


> Here is a movement image I borrowed from an auction site. They sell from 2000-6000 RMB yuan depending on styles and features. I may buy one one day as an example of the 1st Chinese designed chronograph.b-)


Wow ! Where can I exactly find one (ie on which auction site did you find it) ?  Thanks.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Fandegrue said:


> Wow ! Where can I exactly find one (ie on which auction site did you find it) ?  Thanks.


PM sent. I have no connections to that seller.


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## Fandegrue (Jul 17, 2011)

soviet said:


> PM sent. I have no connections to that seller.


Thanks ! 

Envoyé depuis mon GT-N7100 en utilisant Tapatalk 4


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Beijing made a thin movement of 3.7mm thickness in 1980's, and added a unidirectional automatic component to it. This automatic movement is rarely seen. I thought once that the 3.7mm movement was SZB-2, but I was wrong. Beijing's 20 zuan tongji was SZB-2. Perhaps this thin 17 jewels movement is SZB-3?
The Shuangcheng brand name is odd. I have no idea what double cities it refers to? The logo is lost, but a Shuangcheng date watch is not that hard to find. I may find a replacement dial for this watch.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A clean Hongye (red leaf) is not easy to find, and a Beijing made watch dared to use and print a Beijing brand name on the dial is a rare one! It seems Beijing's mayor Peng was very wary of Mao then.:roll:


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here are two examples of Beijing made watch without a Beijing brand name. The one with red letters SZB-1 is a rare one. It has a tongji movement that is signed 73 under the balance. The steel case is still borrowed from a SB-5's with an eight-sided caseback. It was earlier than Shanghai's 7120 model watches since 1974.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Shanghai Sea Gull


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> View attachment 1188295
> 
> 
> View attachment 1188296
> ...


My clean original Tianjin WUYI says hello! One needs some luck to find such clean 50 years old watches.:-! I think their re-issue has a similar crown.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Congratulations for a very clean Shanghai Seagull. This one is still missing from my collection.|>


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

saskwatch said:


> Shanghai Sea Gull


Oh, I do like that.

Ric


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Somebody who loved their job really put their heart into the dies for that caseback.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> Somebody who loved their job really put their heart into the dies for that caseback.


Here is another one for a not often seen Violet brand watch.|> It is one of the better flower brand casebacks.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> ...These have a very nice caseback that I think it is collectible for the caseback alone...





hked said:


> ...The all-important case backs!!!





Chascomm said:


> Somebody who loved their job really put their heart into the dies for that caseback.





soviet said:


> Here is another one for a not often seen Violet brand watch.|> It is one of the better flower brand casebacks.


Yes, the casebacks...

Many of the watches in my collection were purchased more for the caseback than for their other attractive attributes. The old Vintage casebacks thread is one of my favourites.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I had thought this black Tianlong (sky dragon) brand watch was made by Harbin watch factory as they also made a Feilong (flying dragon) brand watch, but it seems not. It has a Beijing made thin 17 jewels movement, and the caseback is signed Jinlong Watch Manufactory LTD. It could be a short-lived Joint-venture company of Hong Kong or Taiwan origin. Its logo is formed by T and L, but it looks like a Chinese character 龙。This is a rarely seen watch.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Nanjing Zhongshan's SN2 movement has many versions, and was made in many other factories. The most often seen are Jieyang's 11 jewels Kuihua (sunflower) and Zhengzhou Huanghe's 16 jewels. But a Jieyang Kuihua watch with this dial is a rare one. I don't recall ever seen another one.

The rarest watch with this type of movement is a 10 jewels Duopai (Rudder) brand watch made in Xinxiang, Henan province. I just saw one on an auction site.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Early Nanning brand pie-pan dial watch with an in-house SS1 movement is a rare one. One source said that only 1,400 such watches were made, but I can't confirm it. I let go a better example with a much higher price tag and never saw another one in any conditions since then.o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two uncommon Hongqi (red flag) watches. I never saw them in person, so they are not mine.

The quick change date Hongqi is unusual for it changes date by pulling the crown. I think it was influenced by Soviet Union's Raketa brand watch. The other has a bold red flag logo that you can see from a distance. It also has a well made caseback. One of the Red Flag watches' casebacks has red flags covers the globe that means spread the revolution all over the world.o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is the 'red flags cover the globe' caseback. It might be sought after soon as someone specially mentioned it on some auction site. This kind of historical, political, and cultural background thing makes VCM collecting more interesting IMHO.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

This thread is fascinating. Loving everything about it. Wonderful stuff, Zhang.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

AlbertaTime said:


> This thread is fascinating. Loving everything about it. Wonderful stuff, Zhang.


Ron, Many thanks for your kind words! I am pleased many of you liked it.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

AlbertaTime said:


> This thread is fascinating. Loving everything about it. Wonderful stuff, Zhang.


+1 :-!


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

A _B_ Tianjin isn't seen often.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I caught this hanzi logo (Chinese character) pie-pan dial Taishan brand watch long time ago, and never seen another one since then IIRC. It has an early Liaocheng made tongji movement.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rarely seen civilian version of Shanghai 24 jewels watch. It is not mine. I never saw one in person.


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## spacetimefabric (Mar 19, 2012)

Not sure how old or rare this is, but my most recent arrival is a Hongqi watch. White dial with pandas. Putting it on my blue/green NATO, because that's how I wear my VCMs.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Thanks for sharing! That is a rare Hongqi IMO. I don't think I have seen more than 4-5 of this 'Panda eating bamboo' dial Hongqi watches. Now it seems they want to send friendly pandas to the world instead of just red flags.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

spacetimefabric said:


> Not sure how old or rare this is, but my most recent arrival is a Hongqi watch. White dial with pandas. Putting it on my blue/green NATO, because that's how I wear my VCMs.
> 
> View attachment 1195296
> 
> ...


Not common in my view. Well caught!

And green is good:


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## spacetimefabric (Mar 19, 2012)

hked,
I'm impressed that it arrived so quickly. A record time for any of my watches coming from the other side of the world. Thanks for the speedy shipping.
The watch is beautiful, definitely a crowning highlight among my few VCMs. It appears to be running well--at the current rate, very roughly comparing it to the Dragon King I had worn earlier, I'm guessing it's gaining about 15-20 secs a day, which isn't bad for a VCM. Will try to post clearer pics when I have chance to take daytime pics.

Note:replying here, as it says that your PM inbox has exceeded storage limits and won't accept new messages.


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## hked (Oct 5, 2009)

Glad you like it mate.

I thought about getting it serviced but it would have cost more than the watch itself. Please send me another PM as my inbox is no longer full (temporarily)



spacetimefabric said:


> hked,
> I'm impressed that it arrived so quickly. A record time for any of my watches coming from the other side of the world. Thanks for the speedy shipping.
> The watch is beautiful, definitely a crowning highlight among my few VCMs. It appears to be running well--at the current rate, very roughly comparing it to the Dragon King I had worn earlier, I'm guessing it's gaining about 15-20 secs a day, which isn't bad for a VCM. Will try to post clearer pics when I have chance to take daytime pics.
> 
> Note:replying here, as it says that your PM inbox has exceeded storage limits and won't accept new messages.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

AlbertaTime said:


> This thread is fascinating. Loving everything about it. Wonderful stuff, Zhang.


+1 too!! Love it!


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

spacetimefabric said:


> Not sure how old or rare this is, but my most recent arrival is a Hongqi watch. White dial with pandas. Putting it on my blue/green NATO, because that's how I wear my VCMs.
> 
> View attachment 1195296
> 
> ...


Oh I love this!! Very nice!!


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## spacetimefabric (Mar 19, 2012)

Here are better daytime shots of the steel-dial Honqi "pandas" watch, including the case back. It's now on a green/black NATO.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I don't mean to start a political discussion. Here are two more casebacks of Red Flag brand watches with a strong political implication FYI. You may not understand why there are 3 Red Flags on the caseback without some explanation.

One is a 3 Red Flags that means 1,CCP's general line,2, Great Leap forward movement, and 3,people's commune. And the other is for Workers and Peasants who were the leading classes of PR China.

The 1st one with gears and rice ears are very well finished, and it is not as often seen as the '3 Red Flags' one.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I have only seen two of this Ling Hua watches over the years, and the other one is in very dirty condition. So they are not common even in Beijing area. It has odd indexes that needs some 'get used to'.o|


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

hked said:


> Glad you like it mate.
> 
> I thought about getting it serviced but it would have cost more than the watch itself. Please send me another PM as my inbox is no longer full (temporarily)


Ed, I have found a place in Beijing to service vcm at half the price I told you. Let me know if you want to know where to go


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

An advertising watch made by Hongqi Watch factory in Xian


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

saskwatch said:


> An advertising watch made by Hongqi Watch factory in Xian


. Oh, I'm sorry...did I forget to mention  :-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Great Wall brand watches with a 17 jewels tongji are more often seen with a white dial. They are quite rare in other colors with a Chinese logo 长城。Its long red arrow second hand is not often seen on other VCMs.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I have seen a few of this 工农兵 （workers, peasants, soldiers) brand, Xinchanpin(new products) watches with various dials and movements over the years , but never found out who made them. Mine has a french movement inside, and others sometimes has a Shanghai A581's type movement or others inside. I guess that they could have been made in Liaoning province before they made their Liaoning brand watches.:roll:


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

AlbertaTime said:


> Not common in my view. Well caught!
> 
> And green is good:


Here is my green one and a nice lady panda.|>


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

soviet said:


> I have seen a few of this 工农兵 （workers, peasants, soldiers) brand, Xinchanpin(new products) watches with various dials and movements over the years , but never found out who made them. Mine has a french movement inside, and others sometimes has a Shanghai A581's type movement or others inside. I guess that they could have been made in Liaoning province before they made their Liaoning brand watches.:roll:


 A rare piece of history indeed!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> A rare piece of history indeed!


A collector posted an image of another one of these, and it is signed FUDINGCHUPIN on the dial. So now we know who made it. One source said that the Fuding factory was established around 1940. I have another watch made by this factory, a Daosui (rice ears) brand watch with a Swiss movement. The factory also made another brand Meihua (plum flower) brand watch always with a Titoni movement. You may already know that Titoni's Chinese name is meihua (梅花）。

Cameras, clocks, and watches first entered China from those coastal areas of Southeastern China. These are like those Huacheng watches. They are not 100% Chinese products.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

I was very lucky to find a ZuanShi SM1A prototype in as good condition as this one. I've never seen another with this dial.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> I was very lucky to find a ZuanShi SM1A prototype in as good condition as this one. I've never seen another with this dial.
> 
> ........


That is really an amazing find! Congratulations!|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A very nice XUEHUA (snow flake).


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> I was very lucky to find a ZuanShi SM1A prototype in as good condition as this one. I've never seen another with this dial.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A very odd dial Shuangling, and a rare one it is.;-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rare gift watch issued by PLA's General Stuffs Communications Dept. to advanced individuals. I never saw another one over the years.b-)


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

saskwatch said:


> I was very lucky to find a ZuanShi SM1A prototype in as good condition as this one. I've never seen another with this dial.


'
Good Luck is preparation and opportunity. You scored big time . Well done, Jon!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Zuanshi quick beat 28,800 bph watch was a prototype, and the day/date version is very hard to find. I haven't caught one yet. Here is the date version. The image is borrowed (stolen) from a Chinese auction site FYI.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An original clean Shanghai A611. It is one of my favorite VCMs. There are many early Shanghai watches with newly made dials on some auction sites. Be careful of those. Don't pay a collectible price for those watches.o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Another 'rare' one for its extremely clean condition for a 50 some years old watch- an original Shanghai A581.|>b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A never used model 151 Zuanshi , a chrome-plated Diamond watch, is a rare one. A chrome Zuanshi is not that hard to find, but usually the chrome-plated case is in worn, rusty condition. I never saw another one in this like-new condition.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A never used model 151 Zuanshi , a chrome-plated Diamond watch, is a rare one. A chrome Zuanshi is not that hard to find, but usually the chrome-plated case is in worn, rusty condition. I never saw another one in this like-new condition.


That one is pretty :-!


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

soviet said:


> A very odd dial Shuangling, and a rare one it is.;-)


That one slightly hurt my eyes.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

What, this one? Ric

p.s.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> That one slightly hurt my eyes.


And Rick posted THREE of this! That really hurts.o|:-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An original ST-2A WUYI with a slightly bigger steel case with thicker lugs, and a different crown. This type of WUYI watch don't show up very often, especially in this condition.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is an extremely rare Dong Feng brand watch made by a Shanghai Zabei Watch Dials Factory! You never know what is hidden in those junk watch piles.o| This is not mine. It is the only image of this watch I have ever seen so far.


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## hked (Oct 5, 2009)

Do you know if it is all original or has the dial (or other parts) been renovated please?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

hked said:


> Do you know if it is all original or has the dial (or other parts) been renovated please?


Sorry for a late reply. No, I have no idea if all is original. I have trouble opening the site these days.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I heard about Shanghai 582 model watch long time ago, but never saw an image of it. It is in fact a pocket watch with a 581's movement. Here is an image FYI. I borrowed it from a Chinese watch site.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Another rare piece that is not mine.:-( A manual wind Shanghai military SS2. Thanks to the owner for the images.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rarely seen Shanghai Nr.3 Watch Factory made Huguang ( light of Shanghai?). You can see a Chinese character 光 stamped on a sea-lion logo on the movement. It has a Nr.3 factory made in-house SS1 movement. Perhaps someone complained about the sea-lion brand name and then the factory Changed their brand name?:-s


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Any clean WUYI with a nice dial is collectible IMO as Seagull is to become an international well known brand name in the coming years. This patterned dial is not often seen, and it is pretty.|>


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> A very odd dial Shuangling, and a rare one it is.;-)


Odd is an interesting description


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

I have just bought this HongQi. Don't think it's that rare but it had been hard to find one with the cross hair on the dial, red Chinese HongQi words and also three flags on the case back. The dial condition is not great but bought it anyway cause it looks interesting especially with the 3 flags on the case back (the meanings of the 3 flags were explained earlier by Soviet earlier in this thread)

What do you guys think? Would anyone be able to tell me what is the movement for this watch as its not Tongji right? What year would this be from? Thanks


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

That is a very nice Hongqi.|> Hongqi is one of my favorite VCM brands with a cultural revolution background. The SL2 movement is Liaoning's second movement after Liaoning brand's 16 jewels SL1 and then Wanianqing brand's 17 jewels version of SL1. It was massed produced in 1970 and perhaps ended around 1974 when China introduced tongji movements.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> That is a very nice Hongqi.|> Hongqi is one of my favorite VCM brands with a cultural revolution background. The SL2 movement is Liaoning's second movement after Liaoning brand's 16 jewels SL1 and then Wanianqing brand's 17 jewels version of SL1. It was massed produced in 1970 and perhaps ended around 1974 when China introduced tongji movements.


Thanks Soviet! I really like HongQi too for the same reasons


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Wannianqing and Kongque. Both are hard to find in this condition these days.:-db-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A collector's rare and cute Zhongshan clocks. I never saw them in person on flea markets.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A real rare VCM, a quick beat 33 jewels Zuanshi SM2(?) automatic watch. Never sold on the open market. Images are stolen from a Chinese site for information only.b-)


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A real rare VCM, a quick beat 33 jewels Zuanshi SM2(?) automatic watch. Never sold on the open market. Images are stolen from a Chinese site for information only.b-)


That is surely unique!
Any idea if it keeps as good time as the manual SM1A-K?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> That is surely unique!
> Any idea if it keeps as good time as the manual SM1A-K?


Here is a quote from a book about the 'gang of four' from a thread:

为王洪文专门精制五块高级钻石牌双日历手表，调动了七个工厂、一个商店的四十余名技术人员，花费国家资金一万一千多元。王洪文用的保温杯，也要给他特制，加工单位仅为制杯盖，花了半个多月时间，专门制了两套模具，这一项就耗费国家资金一千六百多元。"

It says : five high grade Zuanshi brand day/date watches were made for Wang Hongwen. It took 7 factories and a shop's 40 some engineers and technicians, and a capital investment of 11 thousand RMB yuan....

And then other posts commented that these watches are very accurate, but without specific data. I think that these should be at least as accurate as a SM1 movement powered watch.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> Here is a quote from a book about the 'gang of four' from a thread:
> 
> 为王洪文专门精制五块高级钻石牌双日历手表，调动了七个工厂、一个商店的四十余名技术人员，花费国家资金一万一千多元。王洪文用的保温杯，也要给他特制，加工单位仅为制杯盖，花了半个多月时间，专门制了两套模具，这一项就耗费国家资金一千六百多元。"
> 
> ...


Wow. That's very high cost considering the year.


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## hked (Oct 5, 2009)

OK, thanks and loving this thread!



soviet said:


> Sorry for a late reply. No, I have no idea if all is original. I have trouble opening the site these days.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Never think you have seen everything of old Chinese watches! Here is the rarest of the rare Tianjin tuning fork watches. Only very small numbers were made after the model ST4 tuning fork movement that is already quite rare and demand high prices to collectors now. Thanks to the owner for the images.|> It is said that the two with crown at 3 hours are ST4, and the one with crown at 5 hours was made later, and inspired by another foreign brand.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A quote from shaoxq:

也来一块天津音叉表：无论其机芯款式和外观均有奇异之处，多处显示出不对称，不协调。初查了一些资料后，得知老梁的音叉表机芯是仿宝路华的，而此机芯类似于宇宙牌机芯。也了解到当年天津在试音叉表时，对当时国际流行的几款电子表品牌均有研究和摸索，同时也对老梁积极探索国产音叉电子表试制历史的精神表示敬意：

And a front image of this watch. It seems few people ever heard of this watch. He said that it shares some similarity with Universal Geneva's movement.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A Dongfeng pie-pan dial with a printed logo is uncommon probably 1 in 10-15 pie-pan dial Dongfeng ST5s, and its very clean condition makes it a rare VCM.b-)


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Oh wow!  

The ST4 can easily be traced back to the Bulova Accutron 214 (interesting story behind that ;-)), but this one...










...I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.


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## Silver Hawk (May 16, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> Oh wow!
> 
> The ST4 can easily be traced back to the Bulova Accutron 214 (interesting story behind that ;-)), but this one...
> 
> ...


I'd be interested to know the size of that watch because this movement looks as though it is based on the Bulova Accutron 2300 Series...which is usually found in ladies watches:


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> Oh wow!
> 
> The ST4 can easily be traced back to the Bulova Accutron 214 (interesting story behind that ;-)), but this one...
> 
> ...


I don't know either. I will ask a question there. Sometimes a collector doesn't want to talk more, or share an image of their 'rare' watches. Not everyone is like me, wish to show-off his "valuable collectibles" all the time.

Here is a quote from collector Youfang, that is also a quote from a book about ST-4 specifications:

提供一段天津音叉表试制经过，部分资料引自《中国计时仪器通史》：

1965年2月，天津手表厂与天津大学合作，成立音叉电子手表联合研制组，成员有苑文炳，吕杨生，应建之，保进森等。试制小组参照国外样机，于1965年9月研制出音叉电子表样机二只，并通过了轻工业部技术鉴定。
1969年，天津第二手表厂成立，同年九月，ST-4型音叉表转入该厂生产。

其主要技术特点：
ST-4型音叉表机芯直径30mm，厚度6.20mm，17钻，音叉振动频率300HZ，走时精度小于（等于）2s/d，ST-4型音叉表使用锌汞电池，电压1.35V。ST-4音叉表计数棘轮直径2.4mm，300齿，齿斜面长度仅有0.025mm，加工以及调整难度非常大。
音叉电子手表工作原理：由电池向电子线路提供能量，电子线路输出脉冲信号使音叉以300赫兹频率发生震荡，棘轮机构将音叉的振动转变为轮系的转动，带动表针指示时间。

I guess the movement in question might have a similar, or better specifications. I will not attempt to translate this difficult technical article, but if you are confused with some details from an on-line translation, we can discuss it.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Silver Hawk said:


> I'd be interested to know the size of that watch because this movement looks as though it is based on the Bulova Accutron 2300 Series...which is usually found in ladies watches:


Thanks for the input. The case of the Seagull watch looks like a man's watch, but I will ask a question at that forum. Another member mentioned that Chinese watch factories investigated many brands and models tuning fork watches and made some prototypes at that time. These prototypes are all very rare watches.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> Wow. That's very high cost considering the year.


Indeed. A Rolex watch only cost 400 yuan then.<|:-|


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

The on-line translation was surprisingly clear:

Tianjin provides a tuning fork watch after trial, some of the information cited from "China chronographs History":

February 1965, cooperation with Tianjin University, Tianjin watch factory, established jointly developed electronic tuning fork watch group members Yuan Wenbing, Lu Yang, should be built in, Paul Jin Sen. Reference to foreign prototype trial team in September 1965 developed a prototype two electronic tuning fork watch, and passed the technical appraisal of Light Industry.
1969, Tianjin Second Watch Factory was established in September, ST-4 type fork into the watch produced by the plant.

Its main technical characteristics:
ST-4 type tuning fork watch movement diameter 30mm, thickness 6.20mm, 17 drill, tuning fork vibration frequency 300HZ, travel time accuracy of less than (equal to) 2 s / d, ST-4 type fork watch using zinc-mercury batteries, voltage 1.35V. ST-4 count ratchet table fork diameter 2.4mm, 300 teeth, tooth bevel length of only 0.025mm, processing and adjustment very difficult.
Electronic tuning fork watch works: from the battery provides energy to the electronic circuit, electronic circuit output pulse signal causing the fork to 300 Hz frequency of shocks, vibrations ratchet mechanism will fork into the rotation wheel system, driving hands mark the time.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

That is surprisingly good as we all know by now that drill means jewel.:-d Mr. Shao said that the other movement was made for a very short period, and only a few dozens were made.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A prototype movement image. I saw it for the 1st time only a few days ago. It looks similar to Diamond 'B' movement. And also a rare WUYI image.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> A prototype movement image. I saw it for the 1st time only a few days ago. It looks similar to Diamond 'B' movement. And also a rare WUYI image.


It is the thinnest SBS thin movement with a thickness of 3.2mm only, and that is why it has a different layout.
There are 3 thickness of SBS series movements: 3.75mm, 3.5mm, and 3.2mm.

A quote from collector Youfang : 《坚定地钻石之路-上海钻石手表厂历史（一九三二一九九O）》一书里有上海SBS薄形手表研发过程的一些介绍，这本书由上海科学普及出版社出版，以下是相关内容：

"&#8230;1983年7月，上级公司向上海手表厂和上海钻石手表厂，下达了试制生产SBS1和SBS2机械男表各一万只的任务。其中钻石厂需要承担SBS1，SBS2型手表原动组件，传动轮系部件，擒纵机构部件，走针轮系，以及各螺钉等25种零部组件的生产任务和成品表的装配，同时还承担了SBS双历手表中18种零部件的试制任务。
这样一来，工厂面临的困难确实不少，原有的老产品生产任务己很繁重，且缺少机床，场地也小。为了克服困难、完成任务，工厂成立了生产新表的领导小组，组成了以厂长、副厂长为组长的新表联络机构，每星期安排一次例会。新表小组的同志，经常在车间分析投产过程中出现的矛盾和困难，批量生产要有比较完整的图纸文件和工艺装备，技术和工具部门的同志抢时间，争速度，及时赶出了各种工艺文件和工具，通过批量考核使工艺工装得到了完善，更使生产得以正常进行，在加工SBS2型轮系零部件时，由于老产品任务紧张，加之又没有空余机床，特别是轮片材料变形问题没有解决，动件车间的职工就干脆睡在车间里，昼夜连续奋战，突击了二个星期，完成了加工任务。
经过全厂职工的共同努力，截止1983年底共装手表10010只，经过一个周期的校对，最后包装成品表为5250只，其中SBS1型手表为2602只，SBS2型手表为2648只，其装配合格率平均在85%左右，在上述手表中，各一百只成品表进行了成品测试（方法与测试SM1A手表相同），测试结果为：连续走时在50小时以上占91%，其中SBS1型平均走时为51.062小时，SBS2型平均走时为50.896小时，SB1S的等时差，位差小于/等于30秒为100%，走时总分为59.62分（以60分计）。SBS2型的等时差，位差小于等于30秒的为97%，走时总分为57.38分（以60分计）。三防总分：SBS1为90%（防水100%，防震80%，防磁90%），SBS2型为70%（防水60%，防震70%，防磁90%）。从这些枯燥的数字中，我们可以清楚地看出，测试的结果是令人满意的。当然，在装配和生产SBS型手表的过程中，也发现了一些问题，如在装配中发现条盒轮与分轮，主夹板轮槽碰擦，擒纵叉叉脚深浅占35%，以及外桩碰擦摆梁等。又如在零件加工中上夹板的变形，传动轮系三，秒轮片强度不够，钻石商标过高等等。这些问题经钟表公司SBS型手表设计组会同上海手表厂和钻石手表厂研究，一一在生产中做了改进"。
上海SBS系列机械男表1986年2月获得了轻工部科技进步二等奖。


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

This is a rare watch. I guess it is rare because few people wanted it. But it might grow on you I hope?;-)o|:roll:


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An earlier 17 jewels Shuangling with a dark brown dial, an uncommon style s/s case in unusually clean condition altogether makes it a rare VCM.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A chrome plated VCM is an uncommon one. Here is a Shanghai 7110 model watch with a very unusual chrome-plated case. Personally, I don't see more than 5 of these over the years.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

There are still a few 'rare' pieces in my sleeves. ;-)This Hongqi SL2 with rose gold hands and markers is a rare version among Hongqi SL2 movement watches. A Hongqi (red flag) SL2 like this one is a rare watch at least to foreign collector friends. The watch looks much better in person. I don't know why it is so hard to photograph.o| Next to the Dongfeng ST-5A, this watch had the most of my wrist time. But I didn't check its accuracy.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Another image of my favorite Hongqi SL2. Somewhat better I think.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chunlei 7621 model day/date watches. These are often seen in less than ideal conditions so a clean one like this is a rare find.b-) It is signed 19 jewels in stead of 19 zuan, so it could have been made for export.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A Baoshihua peacock is not a watch that you can see everyday. It has a very fine dial that even the minute markers are stamped.|> The watch looks better in person.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A Hongye(red leaf) is an uncommon watch even in Beijing area IMO. However, there could be boxes of NOS ones hidden somewhere. Who knows?:roll: Personally, I don't remember seen more than a handful of this in any conditions. The golden sand burst dial is very bright and shinning, and the case style looks very solid.|>


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A Hongye(red leaf) is an uncommon watch even in Beijing area IMO. However, there could be boxes of NOS ones hidden somewhere. Who knows?:roll: Personally, I don't remember seen more than a handful of this in any conditions. The golden sand burst dial is very bright and shinning, and the case style looks very solid.|>


That is a unique watch...it would be perfect for a Canadian WIS like Ron or Jon :-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> That is a unique watch...it would be perfect for a Canadian WIS like Ron or Jon :-d


If I found a box of these, I would send all the Canadian members of CMW each one a gift Hongye watch for staying with us all the years.:-!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two more relatively more common Hongqi SL2 watches. But a red logo VCM is quite rare among VCM brands. I mean this may be the unique VCM watch with a red logo brand name although more than 10 such watches could have been offered for sale.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> If I found a box of these, I would send all the Canadian members of CMW each one a gift Hongye watch for staying with us all the years.:-!


I have a feeling that WIS karma is about to present you with that box of Hongye watches. It would really be fun if it did happen ;-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> I have a feeling that WIS karma is about to present you with that box of Hongye watches. It would really be fun if it did happen ;-)


I checked an auction site right after I posted that Hongye image. You are right. There are quite a few Hongye watches listed. So please don't take what I said about the 'rarity' too seriously.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> I checked an auction site right after I posted that Hongye image. You are right. There are quite a few Hongye watches listed. So please don't take what I said about the 'rarity' too seriously.


Here is a Shanghai date watch with luminous hands. I think it is a rare watch, but I could also be wrong. I just saw a recently issued Seagull military watch on a Chinese forum. I think the two watches solid s/s cases shared some resemblance.


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## miroman (Oct 29, 2010)

Why on the dial is 'since 1964'? Is it a reissue?



soviet said:


> Here is a Shanghai date watch with luminous hands. I think it is a rare watch, but I could also be wrong. I just saw a recently issued Seagull military watch on a Chinese forum. I think the two watches solid s/s cases shared some resemblance.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

miroman said:


> Why on the dial is 'since 1964'? Is it a reissue?


I am curious about that too...


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

miroman said:


> Why on the dial is 'since 1964'? Is it a reissue?


I don't remember Seagull made such a watch in 1964. I guess It could referred to its 1963 Chronograph? This watch was recently issued, and was called Nr.1 military watch.

I borrowed a few more images FYI. It is powered by ST2553 movement. I will check what the 36mm movement looks like.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two earlier 17 jewels version of Beijing BS-2 model watches. Their dials are not exactly the same if you look closely, so each one could be a rare VCM.b-) They have the same type casebacks. Some of this type BS-2 watches may still have a screw balance.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two 18 jewels Beijing BS-2 watches with a non-reflective dial (white paint?). These are less often seen than those with a shining dial ones.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rare Beijing made Shuangling with a Titoni style S/S case and a thin 17 jewels movement. The Titoni style case is popular among later VCMs, but this one is slightly larger. I don't know what BDG-207S means on the well finished caseback. I wound it up about two days ago, and so far it keeps excellent time as my computer does.:-!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two more Beijing BS-2 18 jewels version with shining dials, but different indexes. Clean BS-2s like this are harder to find now.:-!b-) The previous owners took great care of these 40-50 years old watches (1962-1968).|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two Tidal brand pocket watches with tongji movements. I don't know who made them, and never heard of anyone mentioned them. Should the brand name be tide in stead of tidal? One the caseback, one is a double happiness, and another is good luck in Chinese.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Another very clean Beijing BS-2 model 18 jewels version. It still has different index from the four already posted. And a late 17 jewels BS-2 with an embossed Tiananmen logo. This version seems less often seen than those with a printed logo.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A very dark blue, almost black dial 17 jewels version BEIJIXING (Polaris) brand watch. b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An earlier 17 jewels Shuangling with a very uncommon steel case. I have about 20 some Shuangling brand watches, but only one has such a case.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

soviet said:


> An earlier 17 jewels Shuangling with a very uncommon steel case. I have about 20 some Shuangling brand watches, but only one has such a case.


Very beautiful.

Ric


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> An earlier 17 jewels Shuangling with a very uncommon steel case. I have about 20 some Shuangling brand watches, but only one has such a case.


That has to be rare as I don't remember ever seeing that case in anything but chromed brass!
It's in beautiful condition too


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> An earlier 17 jewels Shuangling with a very uncommon steel case. I have about 20 some Shuangling brand watches, but only one has such a case.


Very nice !!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> That has to be rare as I don't remember ever seeing that case in anything but chromed brass!
> It's in beautiful condition too


Thanks. If we pay attention to case designs there are some rare ones. I have a Shanghai SS7 model watch that looks very common, but the case has slim lugs of 20mm width. This case is quite rare IMO.

Then there are those later watches with all sorts of dial, case and bracelet designs.o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> Very beautiful.
> 
> Ric


Ric, bcy, Thanks for your kind reply! My experience is that grab those nice VCMs when they are still available at low price.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> Ric, bcy, Thanks for your kind reply! My experience is that grab those nice VCMs when they are still available at low price.


And that I have learned  the hard way a few times


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Collector 64GT posted this rare 33 jewels 28,800 bph Zuanshi automatic watch on a Chinese forum, I shamelessly borrowed the images FYI. This is a rare watch that I have yet to see one in person. And the day/date version is even rarer.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> Collector 64GT posted this rare 33 jewels 28,800 bph Zuanshi automatic watch on a Chinese forum, I shamelessly borrowed the images FYI. This is a rare watch that I have yet to see one in person. And the day/date version is even rarer.


WOW!

With the high beat and the fine adjuster, this must have really been capable of chronometer precision :-!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> WOW!
> 
> With the high beat and the fine adjuster, this must have really been capable of chronometer precision :-!


Unfortunately I don't have one to check the accuracy.  I would trade 5 NOS Diamond 17 jewels SM1 for this SM2.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A Dongfeng ST5 with the most unusual colored dial.o| I would not buy it to wear.:roll:


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A Dongfeng ST5 with the most unusual colored dial.o| I would not buy it to wear.:roll:


Fuschia is a nice colour but I don't know if it works on a watch dial ;-)

Is this one of the new breed of recently manufactured NOS Dong Fengs?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Fuschia is a nice colour but I don't know if it works on a watch dial ;-)
> 
> Is this one of the new breed of recently manufactured NOS Dong Fengs?


It looks identical to a pie-pan dial date Dongfeng except the dial color. Dongfeng has many newly painted dials such as those 'serve the people' ones so I have doubt about this one.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> It looks identical to a pie-pan dial date Dongfeng except the dial color. Dongfeng has many newly painted dials such as those 'serve the people' ones so I have doubt about this one.


Do you mean that Tianjin is producing these 'new' Dong Feng dials/watches?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Do you mean that Tianjin is producing these 'new' Dong Feng dials/watches?


No. I don't know who made those new Dongfeng watches. But they are sold for very low prices sometimes, I guess that someone made them with service parts, dials and cases and re-painted them.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

The Shanghai 29 jewels military watch was on my want list ever since I started collecting VCMs, but unfortunately when I finally saw one, it was beyond my reach. It cost 10+ times that of a rare Beijing model one!o| Today, even a clean Beijing BS-1 could cost you a few thousand USD.o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A slim Jinji SS7 movement, and a slim Shanghai SS8 with Roman numbers.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Many thanks soviet for sharing these pictures from your own collection and from others' collections too. I look forward to see what new drool-inducing photo(s) will appear each time I see this thread.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> Many thanks soviet for sharing these pictures from your own collection and from others' collections too. I look forward to see what new drool-inducing photo(s) will appear each time I see this thread.


Jon, you have made great contribution to this forum and to this thread. Many thanks!|> Now I think your VCM collection is one of the best in the world! It is amazing that you managed to find so many rare vintage Chinese watches from Canada, a far away country. As a local Chinese, I have never seen some of them here on local flea markets.
This thread is my humble effort to show some vintage Chinese time pieces that were almost unknown to the outside world.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Black dial Shanghai A581 is a rare watch. Only 5% A581s have a black dial IMO. I only caught two over the years. They seem less often seen than Shanghai SS4 24 jewels military watches.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

saskwatch said:


> Many thanks soviet for sharing these pictures from your own collection and from others' collections too. I look forward to see what new drool-inducing photo(s) will appear each time I see this thread.


I second that!


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> Jon, you have made great contribution to this forum and to this thread. Many thanks!|> Now I think your VCM collection is one of the best in the world! It is amazing that you managed to find so many rare vintage Chinese watches from Canada, a far away country. As a local Chinese, I have never seen some of them here on local flea markets.
> This thread is my humble effort to show some vintage Chinese time pieces that were almost unknown to the outside world.


You are very kind. My collection is likely one of the better ones outside of China, but hardly among the best in the world. Your collection, on the other hand, is awe-inspiring.


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## CMcG (Aug 20, 2012)

saskwatch said:


> Many thanks soviet for sharing these pictures from your own collection and from others' collections too. I look forward to see what new drool-inducing photo(s) will appear each time I see this thread.





soviet said:


> Jon, you have made great contribution to this forum and to this thread. Many thanks!|> Now I think your VCM collection is one of the best in the world! It is amazing that you managed to find so many rare vintage Chinese watches from Canada, a far away country. As a local Chinese, I have never seen some of them here on local flea markets.
> This thread is my humble effort to show some vintage Chinese time pieces that were almost unknown to the outside world.


This thread is outstanding! Good work to all the contributors


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Collector 国产表007's rare Andong brand watch with a rarely seen movement.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Model 301 aircraft military clock. There should be thousands of these, so it is not that rare.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A SECOND MACHINE CLOCK.:-s Whatever it is, I have never seen one in person.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A SECOND MACHINE CLOCK.:-s Whatever it is, I have never seen one in person.


It appears to be a TOPWATCH ;-)

Looks like it can record times up to 30 seconds in 10th second increments.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> It appears to be a TOPWATCH ;-)
> 
> Looks like it can record times up to 30 seconds in 10th second increments.


Is the small dial for minutes? Then it can record time up to 30 minutes.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A model 104 ship clock. Now this thread is for rarely seen vintage Chinese time pieces including watches.;-)


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> Is the small dial for minutes? Then it can record time up to 30 minutes.


If the watch was intended for sporting events then a 30 minute totalizer would make more sense


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Collector goli posted images of a rare 20 jewels SS11 movement lady watch on a Chinese forum. |> This is a very rare watch.


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## MACHENE.Tech (Nov 13, 2012)

soviet said:


> Model 301 aircraft military clock. There should be thousands of these, so it is not that rare.


I would like to strap one of these to my wrist.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

MACHENE.Tech said:


> I would like to strap one of these to my wrist.


I would stay far away from it. It is radio active! Perhaps 10 times more than a Shanghai 29 jewels military could emit.o|


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> I would stay far away from it. It is radio active! Perhaps 10 times more than a Shanghai 29 jewels military could emit.o|


Good point!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Shall I say this is also a VCM? I think it is a Sun dial that missed some parts. Then it would not tell time at night.o|

A WUYI watch instruction booklet is much rarer that a WUYI watch.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

soviet said:


> Shall I say this is also a VCM? I think it is a Sun dial that missed some parts. Then it would not tell time at night.o|
> 
> A WUYI watch instruction booklet is much rarer that a WUYI watch.


I think it might be something between a sundial and a compass. Will search on google, but I think I've seen the concept before.

Ric


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> I think it might be something between a sundial and a compass. Will search on google, but I think I've seen the concept before.
> 
> Ric


Thanks Ric for your help!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is a rare Seagull ST5 made for an electric railway bureau. On the back, it says "20 years Electric Railway Bureau resumed its institutional position,1974-1994". I am not very sure if I translated the '建制‘ correctly.:-s


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Another rarely seen Seagull made watch with an unusual dial and an uncommon gold plated case. I don't remember what movement is inside. A ST5 or a Tianjin made tongji? I don't like the dial and the brand name. I may replace the dial if I want to wear the watch.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Ric Capucho said:


> I think it might be something between a sundial and a compass. Will search on google, but I think I've seen the concept before.
> 
> Ric


It is an old Chinese sun dial. The compass is used to orient the clock so that it reads the right time.
These are cool time machines if you can find one with all it's parts


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A silver dial Shanghai 611 is much less often seen than other dials. Perhaps less than 5% of all A611, A611a, and 611 watches has this dial. This dial is almost the same as Shanghai 1020,1120 watches so it could be a later 611 model watch. Some Shanghai 611 model watches also have a SS1 movement inside. That is also an uncommon watch, and was made even later.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A silver dial Shanghai 611 is much less often seen than other dials. Perhaps less than 5% of all A611, A611a, and 611 watches has this dial. This dial is almost the same as Shanghai 1020,1120 watches so it could be a later 611 model watch. Some Shanghai 611 model watches also have a SS1 movement inside. That is also an uncommon watch, and was made even later.


I just can't get over the depth of your collection and VCM knowledge. I never heard before that there were three different 611 varieties!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> I just can't get over the depth of your collection and VCM knowledge. I never heard before that there were three different 611 varieties!


Hi Pawl,

There is even another one, a A-611 singed caseback, so there are at least four variations of model names. I may start another thread to show the different versions. Those early Shanghai watches of 581,611,591 and 623, etc are generally well made with attention paid to details. In late 1950's , a Shanghai 581 watch cost about the same as one ounce of 24K gold!o| I guess that is why they are sought after by collectors.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here are two Tianjin made VCMs. The Hong Kong returns to China watch is rarely seen in Beijing area. Its design is also quite different from most VCMs. Its caseback is signed NIUZAI (cowboy). The caseback of Mao's 100th years anniversary is signed YIN CHUN which is a popular Tianjin watch brand name.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two Feilong (flying dragon) brand watches made by Harbin Watch factory. I haven't figured out why some of the Chinese SHICHEN (zodiac) has white color? Are there some special meanings?


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## aron (Feb 26, 2009)

I think the fonts have dark and light colors to represent day time and night time. For example 子 and 午 both represent 11 to 1, except 子 is 11pm to 1am and 午 is 11am to 1pm, thus 子 is in a darker font to denote night and 午 is light to represent day time?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A LONGFENG (dragon&phenix) brand watch made by Dandong Nr.5 Watch Factory. It has an in-house economy tongji movement. I think the SL5B signed on the caseback is the movement's model name. Such a holy and noble brand name deserves a much better movement and case IMHO.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

aron said:


> I think the fonts have dark and light colors to represent day time and night time. For example 子 and 午 both represent 11 to 1, except 子 is 11pm to 1am and 午 is 11am to 1pm, thus 子 is in a darker font to denote night and 午 is light to represent day time?


Thanks for your input. I still have some doubt as why all the signs don't follow the rule?


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## aron (Feb 26, 2009)

soviet said:


> Thanks for your input. I still have some doubt as why all the signs don't follow the rule?


I have been looking into this as I am waiting on the arrival of my Shanghai 時辰 watch. From my feeble understanding, the color of the font of 時辰 on the dial correspond basically to general sunrise and sunset times as it is listed in correct chronological order on the dial.

For discussion and to expand my previous post:

Order of 時辰

子 11pm to 1am
丑 1am to 3am
寅 3am to 5am

卯 5am to 7am
辰 7am to 9am
巳 9am to 11am
午 11am to 1 pm
未 1pm to 3pm 
申 3pm to 5pm

酉5pm to 7pm
戌 7pm to 9pm
亥 9pm to 11pm

The reason why some dark fonts are side by side correspond to the order of 時辰。 i.e. 寅 and 卯 are chronologically in order thus it is spaced so (with the 5pm to 7pm pair, 酉， in between) but the coloring has two dark ones side by side because 卯 is the switch to sunrise?

I hope someone can corroborate as this is just my deduction and I hope I am interpreting my watch correctly !


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

This looks familiar. Shall dig out my Shanghai Zodiac post to compare and contrast.

Ric


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> This looks familiar. Shall dig out my Shanghai Zodiac post to compare and contrast.
> 
> Ric


Thanks Ric for your help! Yes, I remember there were discussions about these watches.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Many thanks aron for your detailed explanation! I will try to understand it when I get time. It sounds quite complicated?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Most Baoshihua brand watches were made by Shanghai Nr.2 Watch factory with a 17 jewels tongji movement. But Shanghai Watch Factory also made 19 jewels version Baoshihua brand watches. They are 7720 model 19j date watches, 7820 model watches. These always have a Nr.1 factory's steel case with a groove for a O rubber seal.
According to my experience, 7820 model watches are less often seen than 7720 date watches, and 7820 watches with this type caseback is less often seen than the other type ones. So this is a rare VCM! If the 17 jewels dial is original, this could be an earlier 7820 model watch. My other 7820 Baoshihua has a 19 jewels dial ,but still a case with straight lugs.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An earlier 17 jewels Shuangling watch with an unuaual color dial and a steel case. And the dark green dial 20 jewels one also has an uncommon steel case, and an unsigned tongji movement.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

More good stuff 

Do you have as many vintage camera lenses(VCL) as you do watches?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> More good stuff
> 
> Do you have as many vintage camera lenses(VCL) as you do watches?


Thanks! I was a camera collector long before I collected watches. Did we know each other since then on Bob Shell's Russian camera forum? I do have some interesting and rare vintage Chinese lenses, but by no means as many as my VCMs.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> Thanks! I was a camera collector long before I collected watches. Did we know each other since then on Bob Shell's Russian camera forum? I do have some interesting and rare vintage Chinese lenses, but by no means as many as my VCMs.


No; it's not likely our paths crossed as I am not a camera collector(even though I have 4).

I just wondered because I see so many vintage camera bodies and lenses in your VCM photos.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> No; it's not likely our paths crossed as I am not a camera collector(even though I have 4).
> 
> I just wondered because I see so many vintage camera bodies and lenses in your VCM photos.


I can't resist precision, shining metal gears.o| Here are part of my low power microscope objectives. Many can be used on a digital camera as a kind of macro lens with a proper adapter. I heard that a few years ago in a city where used microscopes were sold by weights as junk metal.o| I bought mine for much higher prices from dealers. Some early Chinese objectives are very rare.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> Most Baoshihua brand watches were made by Shanghai Nr.2 Watch factory with a 17 jewels tongji movement. But Shanghai Watch Factory also made 19 jewels version Baoshihua brand watches. They are 7720 model 19j date watches, 7820 model watches. These always have a Nr.1 factory's steel case with a groove for a O rubber seal.
> According to my experience, 7820 model watches are less often seen than 7720 date watches, and 7820 watches with this type caseback is less often seen than the other type ones. So this is a rare VCM! If the 17 jewels dial is original, this could be an earlier 7820 model watch. My other 7820 Baoshihua has a 19 jewels dial ,but still a case with straight lugs.


Here is the relatively more common version of 19 jewels Baoshihua watch. It is still much less often seen than a 17 jewels Baoshihua watch made by Nr. 2 watch factory although these are all national grade A watches.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> I can't resist precision, shining metal gears.o| Here are part of my low power microscope objectives. Many can be used on a digital camera as a kind of macro lens with a proper adapter. I heard that a few years ago in a city where used microscopes were sold by weights as junk metal.o| I bought mine for much higher prices from dealers. Some early Chinese objectives are very rare.|>


Sold by weight for scrap!!!
What a waste :-(

That's a nice selection you've saved from destruction. I have used something similar for extra close macro shots. I get the 3.5x of the optical on the camera plus 10x on the optical comparator I use.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rarely seen Zuanshi (diamond) brand watch with an in-house tongji movement. The 17 jewels movement is signed 17 Zuanshi on the top plate and J863 under the balance. The caseback is signed SZ1-2 for the model name?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A mis-printed Tianjin brand watch with a ST5 movement and a letter J on the dial is a rare watch. It has a cool black dial and a red T logo, and the letter J (jinian) could mean it is a commemorative edition watch. It has a blank case back that has the 东风 brand name milled out. The mis-printed pinyin FANGZHGN should have been FANGZHEN for shock-proof.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rarely seen black dial YINCHUN with a Tianjin made 17 jewels ZTZA tongji movement. I caught it yesterday at Baoguosi for a friendly price of 200 yuan RMB from a guy I know long time ago.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Perhaps less than 5% of all Baoshihua (gem stone flower) brand watches has this dial. I have caught only one over the years, so I think it is a rare watch.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> Perhaps less than 5% of all Baoshihua (gem stone flower) brand watches has this dial. I have caught only one over the years, so I think it is a rare watch.


That is also a not often seen case style as well 

I'm curious about the boxwa or cubes in your background. They seem to have animals etched into the glass?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> That is also a not often seen case style as well
> 
> I'm curious about the boxwa or cubes in your background. They seem to have animals etched into the glass?


Yes, there are animals etched inside. I am also curious how it was done? 
A Baoshihua date watch is not very common either. Thanks for your comments.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A blue logo Tianjin. It has a Tianjin made striped tongji movement.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A blue logo Tianjin. It has a Tianjin made striped tongji movement.


I have yet to get a TainJin watch. One with the striped tongji would be even better 

There is something special and very ancient Chinese about the 'T' logo. Perhaps it is because it reminds me of the shoulder armor worn by warriors of old.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> I have yet to get a TainJin watch. One with the striped tongji would be even better
> 
> There is something special and very ancient Chinese about the 'T' logo. Perhaps it is because it reminds me of the shoulder armor worn by warriors of old.


Very good imagination! The blue logo Tianjin may not be that rare. Good luck to you in finding one in excellent condition. This one has a signed case-back.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A gold VCM is a rare one although it is only a gold plated one. This 11th Asian Games commemorative watch is rarely seen for sale in this condition. The plastic film on the case-back is still there. It has a Beijing made thin 17 jewels movement that is also a national grade A movement.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A big size Zhongshan with a SN3 17 jewels movement is a rare bird. Perhaps one in 30 Zhongshan brand watches has this movement. This movement are more often found in a mid-size 17 jewels Zhongshan watches.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Any Zhongshan watches with a clean animal dial is a rare watch outside of China, and a double dragons dial is a rare one among animal dial Zhongshan watches!b-) Here is a close-up image of the two dragons. Are all dragons male, and all phoenix female?


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> Any Zhongshan watches with a clean animal dial is a rare watch outside of China, and a double dragons dial is a rare one among animal dial Zhongshan watches!b-) Here is a close-up image of the two dragons.


It's a beautiful example of a rare watch. 



soviet said:


> Are all dragons male, and all phoenix female?


Is that the reason they're rare?


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> It's a beautiful example of a rare watch.
> 
> Is that the reason they're rare?


Thanks!

No, I was wondering if the two are fighting each other, or loving each other.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Since we have mentioned Zhongshan Phoenix dial, here is a double phoenix dial. It is by no means as rare as the double dragons dial, but still you don't see it everyday. The version with the phoenix' heads down is much less often seen. This one has the heads up.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Six pandas dial Zhongshan watch, type I, with a panda at 12 hours marker. A clean dial like this is very hard to find these days.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> Six pandas dial Zhongshan watch, type I, with a panda at 12 hours marker. A clean dial like this is very hard to find these days.


I don't think I have seen anyone who showed both types of the 6 pandas Zhongshan watches. It is much more difficult to have a complete set. The two steel cases are not exactly the same, and the case-backs look identical. But look closely, are they really identical?:think:


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Posted on another thread, Mr soviet. A very beautiful and very mysterious (to me) Shanghai.

I'm wondering if you've seen anything like it? An early case and set of hands and crown, to my untutored eye. A-581 or A-611? And what's that drawing on the dial? Did the Bund already look like that in the early 1960s?

Ric


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> View attachment 1273590
> 
> 
> Posted on another thread, Mr soviet. A very beautiful and very mysterious (to me) Shanghai.
> ...


Hi Dear Ric,

That is a very rare Shanghai watch. I have never seen anything like it before. Shanghai recently made some new dials for many of their A581, A611 watches. I doubt if it is one of them? I have seen many types of A581,A611 dials in worn conditions over the years, but nothing was like it.

Cheers,

Soviet


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> Since we have mentioned Zhongshan Phoenix dial, here is a double phoenix dial. It is by no means as rare as the double dragons dial, but still you don't see it everyday. The version with the phoenix' heads down is much less often seen. This one has the heads up.


Here is another type of double phoenix dial. This Zhongshan's movement is an earlier one without a shock proof balance(no Fang Zhen at the bottom). Its steel case is different,too. Again, to find a complete set of both dials is much more difficult.


----------



## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

How about a Shanghai 7120 with embossed Peacock on the dial?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

gigfy said:


> How about a Shanghai 7120 with embossed Peacock on the dial?
> 
> View attachment 1273982
> 
> ...


(Sigh) Beautiful. Ric


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

gigfy said:


> How about a Shanghai 7120 with embossed Peacock on the dial?
> 
> ......


Congratulations! That is a very rare Shanghai 7120.

I have a Suzhou brand watch with a similar Peacock but it is looking to its left. A member of a Peacock's socialist party?:-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Zhongshan,s 8 Peacocks dial. It is a relatively more common Zhongshan watch. But one in best condition is still hard to catch.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two Zhongshan watches with complex patterns of textural dials. If you look closely, the two dials are not exactly the same. So they are a rare set in such clean conditions.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A very early Baoshihua on the right. It is signed 73 under the balance. So it is earlier than all Shanghai 7120 model watches.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Another version of the double phoenix Zhongshan. Non-Fangzhen version is probably an earlier one.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> Congratulations! That is a very rare Shanghai 7120.
> 
> I have a Suzhou brand watch with a similar Peacock but it is looking to its left. A member of a Peacock's socialist party?:-d


Another nice example!
One could have a large collection even if it was only watches with these beautifully embossed dials 

Couldn't help noticing the '17 ZHAN' mistake ;-)


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Another nice example!
> One could have a large collection even if it was only watches with these beautifully embossed dials
> 
> Couldn't help noticing the '17 ZHAN' mistake ;-)


It must be my poor eye sight. I missed that. Many thanks. It is a keeper now.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A very rare Beijing BS-2 dial. This is the only image I have seen over the years. Never see a watch like this in person.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A very rare Beijing BS-2 dial. This is the only image I have seen over the years. Never see a watch like this in person.


Fine art really was a big part of the Chinese VCM scene back in the 70s and 80s!

We would all be proud to have one like that in our humble collections 
Who knows, with my luck lately, one might just show up on eBay at a ridiculously low BIN ;-)


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Fine art really was a big part of the Chinese VCM scene back in the 70s and 80s!
> 
> We would all be proud to have one like that in our humble collections
> Who knows, with my luck lately, one might just show up on eBay at a ridiculously low BIN ;-)


Here is another rare textual dial. I never saw a Haishi with this dial in person.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Let's have a look at this rare LING HUA again.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rare dial Zhongshan watch. Its titanium(or gold?) plated case is also quite uncommon.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rare watch with the rarest hands I have seen on all watches.o| It is a Bohai sea (渤海）brand watch. It is not mine. It has a SL1 movement inside IIRC.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

soviet said:


> A rare watch with the rarest hands I have seen on all watches.o| It is a Bohai sea (渤海）brand watch. It is not mine. It has a SL1 movement inside IIRC.


Absolutely fantastic fun! I *love* it!

Ric


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks soviet and everyone else who has contributed to this thread.



soviet said:


> Here is another rare textual dial. I never saw a Haishi with this dial in person.b-)


I've seen one. In fact I have one, but all of the dial's print is gone.










It's nice to see what it might have looked like in the past.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

A Yanan with the China Rail logo is uncommon. I remember seeing only one other, and it didn't have a textured dial.










I heard a rumour that another textured dial China Rail Yanan is in the hands of a watch seller, but I haven't seen it.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A rare dial Zhongshan watch. Its titanium(or gold?) plated case is also quite uncommon.


I really have to thank you for all the posts and pictures you keep sharing with us.
When I first started buying VCMs, it seemed that nearly all that was offered was watches with the ubiquitous white dial and chrome markers. They all came in one of three case styles and where mostly well used but correct watches.

Since that time, Albertatime, saskwatch, Joel Chan, Torsten, yourself and a few others have opened up the Chinese vintage industry to all of us.

This Zhong Shan is just one more example of the very real diversity to be found with VCMs.

It does seem that Nanjing produced a lot more eclectic and varied styles than others but there is enough out their to cater to everyones particular tastes.

Lately there have been some very good deals on ePay that we haven't seen in quite a while. Time to stock up on my Nanjing favourites


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## hked (Oct 5, 2009)

Not sure how rare or old this one is, but I _needed_ one after seeing Ron's Tianjin private museum post AlbertaTime returns to China. Post #14 - Tianjin Watch and Clock Collectors private museum...! Thank you Soviet and all contributors to this wonderful thread.

Ron's photo








My lucky find  World time is set using the rotating outer bezel in contrast to..... 








the Ma An Shan version, where the inner bezel rotates. To me both are equally beautiful :-!.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

hked said:


> Not sure how rare or old this one is, but I _needed_ one after seeing Ron's Tianjin private museum post AlbertaTime returns to China. Post #14 - Tianjin Watch and Clock Collectors private museum...! Thank you Soviet and all contributors to this wonderful thread.
> 
> Ron's photo
> View attachment 1280537
> ...


Hi hked,

Thanks for sharing! According to my experience, these world time watches are very rare. Congratulations! 
I don't recall ever seen them on those flea markets. One of the watch vendors a Mr. Wang even boasted of having some 30,000 watches! But he never showed me one like this. However, I do remember that I caught a very rare Soviet 32 jewels Slava watch from him. That watch only showed up 2-3 times on the Russian forum.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> I really have to thank you for all the posts and pictures you keep sharing with us.
> When I first started buying VCMs, it seemed that nearly all that was offered was watches with the ubiquitous white dial and chrome markers. They all came in one of three case styles and where mostly well used but correct watches.
> 
> Since that time, Albertatime, saskwatch, Joel Chan, Torsten, yourself and a few others have opened up the Chinese vintage industry to all of us.
> ...


Hi Peter,

Many thanks for your kind comments. I think your observation of VCM's designs and styles are basically correct especially for those made in late 1960's and 1970's when China had a most leftist ideology during the 'cultural revolution' . These along with those brand names such as Red Flag, East Wind, Yanan, Jinggangshan, etc are historical evidence when China was under a leftist ideology influence. I don't think those ideology will come back soon. Those Zhong Shan watches with more varied styles could have been made later than 1978 when Deng's new policy was implemented. 
Anyway, I found that those historical and cultural background makes VCM collecting more interesting. It is also interesting to see how China made those technical progress under a central planned economy.


----------



## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

hked said:


> Not sure how rare or old this one is, but I _needed_ one after seeing Ron's Tianjin private museum post AlbertaTime returns to China. Post #14 - Tianjin Watch and Clock Collectors private museum...! Thank you Soviet and all contributors to this wonderful thread.
> 
> Ron's photo
> View attachment 1280537
> ...


Excellent catches Ed, and thanks for sharing the pictures. :-! Do you have any info about who made them?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

It would only be a dream to own the very original WUXING watch with a pin lever movement. But it is still possible to find some early WUYI watches with a ST1 movement. Here are a couple of mine in worn condition. But they are still attractive in this aged conditions.
The two WUXING images are borrowed from Baidu.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Those sepia tones on the dials really warm my heart 
I love these old watches more than I could ever a new one.


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## aron (Feb 26, 2009)

What do they call these world time watches in Chinese? Who makes it?

I really wished the 2012 project watch was the world time... Too bad it didn't work out. This NEEDS to be a project watch at some point!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

aron said:


> What do they call these world time watches in Chinese? Who makes it?
> 
> I really wished the 2012 project watch was the world time... Too bad it didn't work out. This NEEDS to be a project watch at some point!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe they are called '世界时'。


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Those sepia tones on the dials really warm my heart
> I love these old watches more than I could ever a new one.


I learned from the vintage forum that these are called patina. Some collectors value this very highly as it is an evidence of a watch's authenticity. Since some vintage watch could cost big money, these do have some value IMO.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here are three very rare VCMs from a VCM collector 'Liu'. I have never seen a Tiantan brand watch before so that I can't tell if that watch is original. The one with a Temple of Heaven logo and caseback is the Tiantan watch. He didn't show what the movement is inside. The other two Beijing made watches are correct as I also have these watches. They are not easy to find nowadays.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Wea22ther said:


> I have only seen 2-3 with the same dial and the same fully signed casebacks over the years.


Your images don't show up on my computer. But you said exactly what I said about my Zijinshan watch. Is it the same Zijinshan?


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## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

soviet said:


> I learned from the vintage forum that these are called patina. Some collectors value this very highly as it is an evidence of a watch's authenticity. Since some vintage watch could cost big money, these do have some value IMO.


Japanese culture refers to this as wabi-sabi. The philosophy of finding beauty in things that are imperfect, impermanent or incomplete.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A 1964 vintage Shanghai A-581 watch in original, amazing condition is also a rare watch.b-)|>


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

gigfy said:


> Japanese culture refers to this as wabi-sabi. The philosophy of finding beauty in things that are imperfect, impermanent or incomplete.


You can find an example of wabi-sabi in almost anything with a "Made in Britain" mark.

Not that we make anything anymore, which is probably for the best.

Ric


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two very uncommon Tianjin made watches. The Lanhua brand watch is not that hard to find, but this one has a very unusual color dial and an uncommon logo. The Tianjin WUYI is signed Jianjin on the dial that is very rare. Jianjin means gold & steel, but I can't find them on the watch? Jianjin could also mean imprison(监禁）that should not be what it meant.

I borrowed images from an auction site. They are not mine.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

It has been a very long time since I saw a Diamond watch in LN condition. This watch was made in 1985 IIRC. They are to become rare VCMs in the future.b-)

And a Shanghai A-581 watch with red lettering is quite uncommon.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Just saw a Jinan made Chunyan brand (spring swallow) watch on a Chinese forum with an in-house movement that I have never seen before. I have a Chunyan watch , but with a tongji movement. The in-house movement looks like a lower cost alternative to the tongji. The upper plate is signed CY (Chun Yan). All gears seem identical to that of a tongji movement.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

wow! b-) That must surely be the most simplified of all simplified tongji movements.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> wow! b-) That must surely be the most simplified of all simplified tongji movements.


I have been looking for another Qionghua brand watch from Yangzhou with a simplified tongji like this one. It seems much less often seen than the other version with separate plates.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> Just saw a Jinan made Chunyan brand (spring swallow) watch on a Chinese forum with an in-house movement that I have never seen before. I have a Chunyan watch , but with a tongji movement. The in-house movement looks like a lower cost alternative to the tongji. The upper plate is signed CY (Chun Yan). All gears seem identical to that of a tongji movement.


I haven't seen that movement before. I remember an old post of yours with a picture of a different movement inside a Jinan-made Ying Chun brand watch.










It appears that Jinan did some interesting things.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

saskwatch said:


> I haven't seen that movement before. I remember an old post of yours with a picture of a different movement inside a Jinan-made Ying Chun brand watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The keyless works and winding system are completely different on this one.
I wonder if it too was just a prototype that preceded the 'standard' tongji as mandated by the government?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> The keyless works and winding system are completely different on this one.


A rocking-bar system perhaps?


> I wonder if it too was just a prototype that preceded the 'standard' tongji as mandated by the government?


I think these simplified versions came later. Some of them are made by factories that were not yet in operation when the Tongji was under development.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rarely seen early Suzhou watch with a 21 jewels SS1 type movement. It could be a prototype only as the movement is unsigned. I saw it on an auction site.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> A rocking-bar system perhaps?
> I think these simplified versions came later. Some of them are made by factories that were not yet in operation when the Tongji was under development.


Those are all 4th grade movements like that of Zhongshan's SN2. They also sold for about the same then at about RMB 30-40 yuan each. I remember that a young couple could save at most 50-60 RMB yuan a year so a Shanghai 7120 at RMB 120 yuan was still too expensive.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Tianjin made early WUYI watches with a textural dial is a rare watch now if you can find one in good conditions. They have many designs for their textual dials so that it is hard to find two with exactly the same dials. Those 62-A all steel model watches are more likely to have those beautiful dials.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

One of the early Yanan watches with an in-house SS1 type movement. This one without a model name on the case-back is less often seen. To day, a watch in this LN condition is a rare one. The Yanan brand name and Hongqi Watch factory (red flag) made it not only just a watch, but also a cultural relic of the old communist years.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> Tianjin made early WUYI watches with a textural dial is a rare watch now if you can find one in good conditions. They have many designs for their textual dials so that it is hard to find two with exactly the same dials. Those 62-A all steel model watches are more likely to have those beautiful dials.|>


Seeing old VCMs like this one just warms my heart 
Thanks for sharing it.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Seeing old VCMs like this one just warms my heart
> Thanks for sharing it.


Another 62-A WUYI. Its textural dial is slightly different from mine at post #339.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Collector 听泉 posted images of the rare Early Zhongshan watch on a Chinese site. Although I am also an avid Zhongshan watches collector, I have never seen one with a case-back like this before.|> It is one of the bigger case Zhongshan watches (37mm). Thanks 听泉 for sharing.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A colored dial Beijing tongji watch is quite rare. It is much less often seen than those colored dial Shaungling brand watches.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An all black Huanghe with gold tone hands and index is very attractive.b-) One in this LN condition is a rare VCM IMHO.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I might try something like this myself one day to DIY some rare VCMs. b-)Each one is unique.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks, soviet, for your continuing contributions to this thread. 



soviet said:


> I might try something like this myself one day to DIY some rare VCMs. b-)Each one is unique.


The dial is stunning. I admire the creativity of those who make these DIY models.

I bought this one some time ago:


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A textual dial Baoshihua watch is not that rare, but with luminous hands and indexes makes it a very rare VCM. b-)I don't recall ever seen one like this in person. I only managed to find only one with luminous hands but not textual dial.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Collector 刘金岁月's big size Hongqi SL2A. I never see one in person. Its case-back is rare and well finished too.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Some well known Chinese watch designers and their products:

???


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> Some well known Chinese watch designers and their products:
> 
> ???


The Artists behind the art 

These folks don't have to take a back seat to any of the Swiss elite designers!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> The Artists behind the art
> 
> These folks don't have to take a back seat to any of the Swiss elite designers!


Thanks. I am proud of these Chinese Artists.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A less common WUXI made Yingchun with a nice case-back. The case-back is a piece of art IMHO.b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rarely seen Yongjiu (forever) brand watch with a Russian movement inside. Normally it has a Liaoning made SL1 movement. This is the only one I have seen with a Russian movement, and it looks original. China imported a lot of 'Russia' brand watches back in the 1950's with this type of movement.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A rarely seen Yongjiu (forever) brand watch with a Russian movement inside. Normally it has a Liaoning made SL1 movement. This is the only one I have seen with a Russian movement, and it looks original. China imported a lot of 'Russia' brand watches back in the 1950's with this type of movement.


I have to wonder if the ST-5 may not have been partially inspired by this movement ;-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Collector 刘金岁月 published images of two very rare early electronic watches. |> From their brand names 徐州 and 延风， I guess they were made in Xuzhou and Xian respectively.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> I have to wonder if the ST-5 may not have been partially inspired by this movement ;-)


IIRC, that Russian movement is a copy of a Swiss ETA or a French LIP movement itself. :）


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> IIRC, that Russian movement is a copy of a Swiss ETA or a French LIP movement itself. :）


The closest I could find on the Ranfft site are a couple of ETA calibres. There are no LIPs there that look similar.

This basic layout has been used by nearly every watch movement maker out there; Swiss(a bunch of them), Seiko, Citizen, Tianjin, Beijing, etc.
Our own lysanderxiii once described this layout but I can't remember the term he used.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rarely seen Fenglei brand (Xian Fenglei) tongji movement watch. It is unsure when it was made. It could pre-date other major factory's tongji movement watches.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> The closest I could find on the Ranfft site are a couple of ETA calibres. There are no LIPs there that look similar.
> 
> This basic layout has been used by nearly every watch movement maker out there; Swiss(a bunch of them), Seiko, Citizen, Tianjin, Beijing, etc.
> Our own lysanderxiii once described this layout but I can't remember the term he used.


I opened one of my Lip watches. It has a R23B movement inside. Its layout looks similar to that of the Russian one. I heard that some Lip watches were used as a state gift. It must be of high quality and quite rare.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Wow! b-)

There was a lot more development of electric watches in China than I realized.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A late 1980's Shaungling with a thin ZB-2 17 jewels movement. I am wearing it these days. The national grade 1 movement needs some adjustment. I am not sure what BDG-207S on the caseback means. This is the only example I have seen so far.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

There are still rare VCMs out there. Here is an early Beifang (north) brand watch made in Liaoning with a Shanghai A611 type movement. The watch looks original. It should be one of the earliest Beifang brand watches.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Another Liaoning made rare VCM, a Hongqi (red flag) brand quick set date 3202 model watch. These two watches are not mine. I have never seen them before.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Many years ago, I caught this clean Tiane (swan) brand VCM made in Harbin, but with a blank caseback. Since then I have been looking for a case-back with a flying swan in vein. So I think a Tiane VCM with a correct case-back is a rare VCM.;-)


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> Many years ago, I caught this clean Tiane (swan) brand VCM made in Harbin, but with a blank caseback. Since then I have been looking for a case-back with a flying swan in vein. So I think a Tiane VCM with a correct case-back is a rare VCM.;-)


I noticed that many Harbin-made Tiane brand watches have blank casebacks. They could be completely correct.

We've seen a couple of swan casebacks on the CMW forum. I think Torsten and martback each have one, and there may be others. My Tiane caseback is less picturesque.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> I noticed that many Harbin-made Tiane brand watches have blank casebacks. They could be completely correct.
> 
> We've seen a couple of swan casebacks on the CMW forum. I think Torsten and martback each have one, and there may be others. My Tiane caseback is less picturesque.


Thanks for sharing your Swan case-back. It is also a new one I have never seen before.


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Forum member and a well known VCM collector Li Wei published this rare Shuangling 38 jewels automatic day/date watch on a Chinese site. Thanks for sharing!

I believe that Saskwatch has a 40 jewels Shuangling day/date automatic watch. Both could be just prototypes, and could be extremely rare.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> Forum member and a well known VCM collector Li Wei published this rare Shuangling 38 jewels automatic day/date watch on a Chinese site. Thanks for sharing!
> 
> I believe that Saskwatch has a 40 jewels Shuangling day/date automatic watch. Both could be just prototypes, and could be extremely rare.


I've never seen a 38 jewel Shuangling before. Is there any information about the movement?


----------



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> I've never seen a 38 jewel Shuangling before. Is there any information about the movement?


Li Wei did not provide a movement image. I have asked if he could post an image of the movement, and I am still waiting for his reply.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> Li Wei did not provide a movement image. I have asked if he could post an image of the movement, and I am still waiting for his reply.


He said that the movement looks identical to the 40 jewels one. He has to tear it down one day to find out what is different.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An extremely rare watch related item, a Seagull badge. It is the only example ever surfaced!o| I am a lucky guy.:-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two very uncommon Hefei made VCMs.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> An extremely rare watch related item, a Seagull badge. It is the only example ever surfaced!o| I am a lucky guy.:-d


Dude. that has to be the best catch of all time!

Iwould value that badge over any watch I had ever manged to acquire. You are more than lucky :-!:-!:-!


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

soviet said:


> An extremely rare watch related item, a Seagull badge. It is the only example ever surfaced!o| I am a lucky guy.:-d


That's wonderful, Zhang. That badge is in exactly the right home.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A forum member posted images of a Liaoning Watch Factory made watch with an in-house ETA 7750 copy movement on a Chinese forum. It is the first time I know about this movement and the watch. The movement was made in early 2000's, and the watch was made for export to Europe only.
Here are a few images I borrowed from that site FYI. The size of the watch is 42.5mm, and the parts of the movement is interchangeable with that of ETA7750. It was sold for equal to RMB 3,400 yuan then.

'表径，42.5MM。8年前辽宁表厂专为欧洲生产的，机芯与7750多功能运动表一样。零件可以互换。当时出口价合人民币3400元。质量很好，全钢的，耐磨宝石表蒙，螺丝扣表把和按键。自动上链，原包装表盒，实心表带。'


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Those early pie-pan dial tongji watches are quite rare. Some were produced for a very short time period so that these could be much less often seen than their non-tongji watches. Here is a GONGNONGBING brand pie-pan dial watch with a Qingdao made early tongji movement. The logo is the same as later ones - a sickle, a hammer, and a rifle representing peasants, workers and soldiers. The movement has a different click that is often found on the earliest tongji movements of various factories. I borrowed the images from a Chinese auction site.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A very rare Shanghai A581 or A611? textural dial that I have never seen before. One thing that is interesting about VCMs is that never think you have seen everything. Even after years of hunting, there is still something that I have never seen before from time to time. The watch is not mine.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rarely seen Zuan Shi brand pocket watch made by Shanghai Stop-watch Factory with a 19 jewels Liaoning made tongji movement. Why didn't they use their own in-house SM1 movement?:-s Perhaps the factory wanted to keep the cost down for a humble pocket watch?


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

This remains my favourate thread on watchuseek. I always check here first to see what treasures Soviet or others may have posted.

Ric


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> This remains my favourate thread on watchuseek. I always check here first to see what treasures Soviet or others may have posted.
> 
> Ric


Hi Ric,

Thanks for your support! I am pleased that some members found this thread interesting.
I feel that we might never see some of the real rare VCMs in person, so that it is better to keep an image here for reference.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

soviet said:


> Hi Ric,
> 
> Thanks for your support! I am pleased that some members found this thread interesting.
> I feel that we might never see some of the real rare VCMs in person, so that it is better to keep an image here for reference.


No, thank *you* for your support. You are the chairman on the Chinese Mech Forum, and we're privileged to have you here.

Ric


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

Soviet: Thank you again. This may be my new favourite thread too.

I suppose I can add this Zhongshan. Gold coloured hands and markers are not common on an early model.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

saskwatch said:


> Soviet: Thank you again. This may be my new favourite thread too.
> 
> I suppose I can add this Zhongshan. Gold coloured hands and markers are not common on an early model.


Thanks for sharing! I saw this watch on another thread already. Yes, it is a very rare Zhongshan, and a beautiful one too.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Ric Capucho said:


> No, thank *you* for your support. You are the chairman on the Chinese Mech Forum, and we're privileged to have you here.
> 
> Ric


All right, I am the chairman, but the CEO of the CMF is Chascomm. I wish I had 10% of his knowledge about watches.

I have some powerful tools that I should give them a try for those tiny VCM watch parts,and compare them to Swiss ones. Unlike VCMs, they are some of the top end toys.;-) I also collected some microscopes. Most are Zeiss products.|>


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A rare VCM with what looks like an unsigned Diamond movement. But I am not sure. The case-back seems signed Shanghai China.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A sitting panda logo Xiongmao brand watch is a rare one. This is the only one I caught over the years. It looks like a panda was also depicted on the case-back.:-s


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An early Beijing SZB-1 watch with a green plastic second hand is a rare bird. I don't think I have seen another one yet. Its Tiananmen logo is solid and somewhat smaller than an even earlier SZB-1 watch with big indexes.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

The brushed dial and well cut indexes of this Shanghai 7120 makes it a quite uncommon watch. Perhaps one of 20-30 7120 model watches has such a dial. It could become a rare VCM in the future. The other one with gold Seagull stripes dial is not often seen these days either.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A mid-size San Huan date, and a white logo San Huan are uncommon VCMs that you don't see everyday. They were made by Beijing Nr. 2 Watch Factory. The mid-sized San Huan has an unsigned movement that looks like a prototype of their ZB-2 thin movement.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Two uncommon Baoshihua brand watches. The 19 jewels mid-size Baoshihua is quite rare. It is made by Shanghai Watch Factory with their 19 jewels version of tongji movement.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A mid-size San Huan date, and a white logo San Huan are uncommon VCMs that you don't see everyday. They were made by Beijing Nr. 2 Watch Factory. The mid-sized San Huan has an unsigned movement that looks like a prototype of their ZB-2 thin movement.


So maybe I do have a Beijing made watch...


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> So maybe I do have a Beijing made watch...


Your Beijing San Huan is a 20 jewels version. A printed logo, and the case-back is signed Beijing Watch. It should be a later one. San Huan brand watch is a 2nd grade watch as some collector mentioned on a Chinese forum.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A mid-1980's Diamond SM1 in like new condition and with this uncommon dial and a slim steel case is a rare VCM these days. b-)


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chinese VCMs with Roman numbers are very rare. This mid-sized Zuanshi SM1 is the only one in my Zuanshi collection. The case style is not often seen either.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Shanghai 1120 original (without batch numbers) watches in original and excellent condition are sought after. According to my experience, a silver dial 1120 is much less often seen that the gold hands dial ones. And an original 1120 with a one ring case-back is also much less often that the two rings ones. So both are rare VCMs IMO. Remember that these are almost 50 years old watches.o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Diamond brand watches with a SM1 movement and with a luminous dial is a rare bird. You would be lucky to find one on the right in this condition from 30-40 vintage Diamond SM1 watches. The one on the left is a NOS that could be more common. But NOS Diamond watches are also hard to find now.
You may noted that the two S/S cases are slightly different.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A very rare SS1 copy movement watch, a New Dawn (XINSHUGUANG, 新曙光) brand watch made by Harbin Watch Factory. I borrowed the image from a Chinese site FYI. Thanks to the images owner.|>


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

soviet said:


> A very rare SS1 copy movement watch, a New Dawn (XINSHUGUANG, 新曙光) brand watch made by Harbin Watch Factory. I borrowed the image from a Chinese site FYI. Thanks to the images owner.|>


Gotta love the dial and logo on this one :-!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Gotta love the dial and logo on this one :-!


It is the first time I saw this brand watch. The logo is a land mark architecture of Harbin. I was there so many years ago that I forgot what it is called. The place around this tower is still called Stalin park, a river side park of Songhuajing river.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> It is the first time I saw this brand watch. The logo is a land mark architecture of Harbin. I was there so many years ago that I forgot what it is called. The place around this tower is still called Stalin park, a river side park of Songhuajing river.


I think it's the Flood Control Monument, built to commemorate the efforts of the people of Harbin in fighting severe floods of the Songhua River in 1957. My (much more common) Bingcheng brand watch has a similar logo.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Nanjing Watch Factory's very first product, Zijinshan model one is a very rare vcm. I never saw one in person over the years. It has a Roamer copy movement. The images are borrowed from a Chinese auction site FYI.

BTW, I saw an original Tianjin 1963 chronograph in Panjiayuan flea market last Sunday at Mr.Cao's shop. It cost about the same as an economy car!


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> Nanjing Watch Factory's very first product, Zijinshan model one is a very rare vcm. I never saw one in person over the years. It has a Roamer copy movement. The images are borrowed from a Chinese auction site FYI.
> 
> BTW, I saw an original Tianjin 1963 chronograph in Panjiayuan flea market last Sunday at Mr.Cao's shop. It cost about the same as an economy car!


Did u buy the tianjin 1963? Or you bought an economy car instead ?


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> Did u buy the tianjin 1963? Or you bought an economy car instead ?


I am going to replace my car and I saw a Chinese economy car that looks very nice. That car would cost about the same as that 天津 1963。o|
But it looks like the 天津 1963 will gain value and could cost the price of a luxury car in time.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> I am going to replace my car and I saw a Chinese economy car that looks very nice. That car would cost about the same as that 天津 1963。o|
> But it looks like the 天津 1963 will gain value and could cost the price of a luxury car in time.


Hard decisions


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

soviet said:


> I am going to replace my car and I saw a Chinese economy car that looks very nice. That car would cost about the same as that 天津 1963。o|


The car's beautiful.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is a rear view of this concept car(SUV), and a couple of more concept car from the same company-Chery. I think Chinese watch designers may have the same imagination for their new products.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

And a vintage car for Chinese car collectors.;-) It is a Shanghai brand car made since 1958! There is also a Shanghai 58-I model camera made in 1958. This is a rare camera sought after by Chinese camera collectors. Car collecting is still not very popular yet, but some rich guys already have a good collection of Chinese and foreign cars.o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Let's go back to rare VCMs. Here are a couple of Shanghai 592 model watches made in 1959. The one on the left is a real rare bird.:-d

But I can't help show-off my rare SX-16K 16mm fast speed cine camera. Only 60+ cameras were made, and today the company still receives orders .


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

I just caught this vcm recently. Not sure if it is really rare but have not seen it before. Was told not easy to find as not many were produced. It's a Jilin watch. Very large watch base on vcm standard. I have taken a photo of it next to a Wuyi to give you a sense on the size. It's large because it's movement is a pocket watch movement modified to a watch. This watch is manufactured by the same place and factory as MeiHuaLu (Jilin). Not sure why it wasn't branded as MeiHuaLu.

Posting and sharing it here because i think it's rare and also wanted to see if anyone has more info about this watch. What do you all think? Is it really rare? And is using pocket watch movement to create wristwatch widespread? Etc.

Any inputs are welcome

Thanks


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I have seen many big Meihualu watches, but this textural dial Jilin is rarely seen. I don't remember ever seeing one. So it must be rare. Congratulations!|>b-) 
I hope Jilin factory if it still existed could remake the big pocket watch movement and house them in wrist watches for the current trend of big sized watches.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

bcy said:


> I just caught this vcm recently. Not sure if it is really rare but have not seen it before. Was told not easy to find as not many were produced. It's a Jilin watch. Very large watch base on vcm standard. I have taken a photo of it next to a Wuyi to give you a sense on the size. It's large because it's movement is a pocket watch movement modified to a watch. This watch is manufactured by the same place and factory as MeiHuaLu (Jilin). Not sure why it wasn't branded as MeiHuaLu.
> 
> Posting and sharing it here because i think it's rare and also wanted to see if anyone has more info about this watch. What do you all think? Is it really rare? And is using pocket watch movement to create wristwatch widespread? Etc.
> 
> ...


My first thought was that it has a generic dial that has been modified by an owner with the Jilin name (because the crystal of the big watch seems to be of similar size to a regular watch, the dial would likewise be regular size) but then I saw the same name on the back. And that caseback is definitely _not _regular size so it must be genuine.

The use of a pocket watch movement for a wrist watch is commonplace practice these days. It seems like the majority of Unitas-clone movements are used this way. This suits the modern fashion for oversized watches with the vintage flavour of a sub-dial for the second hand (which the big movement locates far enough from the centre to suit a big watch).

However back when mechanical watches were the norm, pocket watch movements have only been used either where there was a lack of suitable wristwatch movements (e.g. WW1 'trench watch' and the early Soviet Type-1 watch), or where greater accuracy is required and size is not an issue but the watch needs to be worn on the wrist (e.g. German WW11 'Beobachtungsuhr').

In China, the focus of high quality watch development has been for wristwatches, with pocketwatches tending to be very low-grade (e.g. the clone of the Anglo-Celtic PY used for 'Dong Fang Hong' and various other brands). Such movements would offer no benefit in a wristwatch (besides being much too big).

The singular exception to the rule was the Jilin HJ1A, which was essentially an upscaled wristwatch movement with the resultant benefit to accuracy (hence its use by the railways). And it was just small enough to fit a large wristwatch case. And... it's the only modern pocket watch sized movement that I know of with a directly-driven (stutter free) sweep second hand.

Whether branded Meihualu or Jilin this is a very special watch, both in the history of Chinese watches and also as a global rarity.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

Chascomm said:


> My first thought was that it has a generic dial that has been modified by an owner with the Jilin name (because the crystal of the big watch seems to be of similar size to a regular watch, the dial would likewise be regular size) but then I saw the same name on the back. And that caseback is definitely _not _regular size so it must be genuine.
> 
> The use of a pocket watch movement for a wrist watch is commonplace practice these days. It seems like the majority of Unitas-clone movements are used this way. This suits the modern fashion for oversized watches with the vintage flavour of a sub-dial for the second hand (which the big movement locates far enough from the centre to suit a big watch).
> 
> ...


Thanks Chasscomm ! The detailed sharing really helped me to learned about the rich history of this watch and also a part of the vcm knowledge. It's very enriching for me personally.

Quick question, is the movement in the one I just acquired the Jilin HJ1A?


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> I have seen many big Meihualu watches, but this textural dial Jilin is rarely seen. I don't remember ever seeing one. So it must be rare. Congratulations!|>b-)
> I hope Jilin factory if it still existed could remake the big pocket watch movement and house them in wrist watches for the current trend of big sized watches.


Thanks Soviet! I agree, this watch must be considered gigantic in those days.. But now it's trendy


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

bcy said:


> Quick question, is the movement in the one I just acquired the Jilin HJ1A?


Yes it is :-!

By the way, I forgot to mention that I particularly like the case shape of this watch. I don't think I've seen it before for an HJ1A wristwatch.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

Chascomm said:


> Yes it is :-!
> 
> By the way, I forgot to mention that I particularly like the case shape of this watch. I don't think I've seen it before for an HJ1A wristwatch.


It's a trendy case by today's standard


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> It's a trendy case by today's standard


Here are my two relatively uncommon Meihualu pocket watches for military and railway service. They are a little big for my wrist. Otherwise, I may find a suitable leather strap for them and wear them on my wrist.b-) 
I heard that these military and railway watches were hand picked from normal production batches. But some watches that were actually used by railway do not have the railway sign. They should also be good quality watches.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> Here are my two relatively uncommon Meihualu pocket watches for military and railway service. They are a little big for my wrist. Otherwise, I may find a suitable leather strap for them and wear them on my wrist.b-)
> I heard that these military and railway watches were hand picked from normal production batches. But some watches that were actually used by railway do not have the railway sign. They should also be good quality watches.


Very nice watches!!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

I caught this Baoshihua Z111 a few days ago at Daliushu. I have been looking for one of these early Baoshihua watches for some time as they are said to be one of the earliest tongji movements. I have a few Baoshihua watches made in 1973, but they are already later versions with a new click. This is one of earlier version with the old click. But it is already a quick beat one at 21600 bph with a smaller balance of 10.50x0.48mm while the 18000 bph one has a balance size of 11.50x0.50mm.
I can't see clearly what is signed under the balance. What makes it a rare watch is its case-back. It is the first time I saw a caseback signed Z111 for a chrome-plated Baoshihua.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

And the same day at Daliushu market, I picked up this Linghua brand date watch made by Beijing Watch Factory. I have seen a few Linghua brand watches, but never a one with a date feature. So this is a rare watch.:-d


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

An image of a rare Baoshihua case-back, I believe it is the earliest steel version Baoshihua's case-back. I borrowed the image from a Chinese site.|> It is the first time I saw it. Mine posted earlier could be the case-back of the earliest Chrome-plated version of Baoshihua watches.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

One more '1st'. o|Here is a Baoshihua day/date model that I have never heard of before. The images are found on a Chinese site. The watch was probably made in late 1970's at about the same time as Shanghai 7621 model watches. The case-back is also a '1st'.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

soviet said:


> I caught this Baoshihua Z111 a few days ago at Daliushu. I have been looking for one of these early Baoshihua watches for some time as they are said to be one of the earliest tongji movements. I have a few Baoshihua watches made in 1973, but they are already later versions with a new click. This is one of earlier version with the old click. But it is already a quick beat one at 21600 bph with a smaller balance of 10.50x0.48mm while the 18000 bph one has a balance size of 11.50x0.50mm.
> I can't see clearly what is signed under the balance. What makes it a rare watch is its case-back. It is the first time I saw a caseback signed Z111 for a chrome-plated Baoshihua.





soviet said:


> An image of a rare Baoshihua case-back, I believe it is the earliest steel version Baoshihua's case-back. I borrowed the image from a Chinese site.|> It is the first time I saw it. Mine posted earlier could be the case-back of the earliest Chrome-plated version of Baoshihua watches.





soviet said:


> One more '1st'. o|Here is a Baoshihua day/date model that I have never heard of before. The images are found on a Chinese site. The watch was probably made in late 1970's at about the same time as Shanghai 7621 model watches. The case-back is also a '1st'.


Thank you for sharing pictures of these Baoshihua brand watches.

Your Z111 is a good-looking piece. I'm certain that the caseback is very rare. My chrome-plated SZ1 Baoshihua has this caseback:










It's noteworthy that Shanghai Watch Factory, Shanghai No. 2, and Shanghai No. 3 used similar model numbers on the casebacks of their early tongi movement watches.

For example, Shanghai 7110 & 7120, Baoshihua Z111 & Z112, Hai Shi 3Z111 & 3Z112 were used for chrome plated and stainless steel models respectively. I don't know what the 6 means on mine, but the number 266 (possibly 2GG) appears above SZ1 under the balance of its movement.

I've never seen the double calendar model before.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

I caught this Wuhan VCM recently during one of my trip to shanghai. I was told by a couple of people that the watch is not easy to find. (Wuhan with Han Chinese character logo). I am sure it's not rare like some of the goodies shared on this thread but not sure if it's really that hard to find. (although it did take me a while to find one.) what do you guys think?

Would appreciate any inputs from fellow WUS friends on authenticity, history or any information that will help me learn more about this watch. Thanks


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> I caught this Wuhan VCM recently during one of my trip to shanghai. I was told by a couple of people that the watch is not easy to find. (Wuhan with Han Chinese character logo). I am sure it's not rare like some of the goodies shared on this thread but not sure if it's really that hard to find. (although it did take me a while to find one.) what do you guys think?
> 
> Would appreciate any inputs from fellow WUS friends on authenticity, history or any information that will help me learn more about this watch. Thanks


Hi bcy,

That is a very nice examle of WUHAN brand watch with a Chinese character logo!:-! I think it is a rare watch. I don't remember ever seen it before.

Thanks for sharing, and congratulations!b-)


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> Hi bcy,
> 
> That is a very nice examle of WUHAN brand watch with a Chinese character logo!:-! I think it is a rare watch. I don't remember ever seen it before.
> 
> Thanks for sharing, and congratulations!b-)


Thanks Soviet!


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

bcy said:


> I caught this Wuhan VCM recently during one of my trip to shanghai. I was told by a couple of people that the watch is not easy to find. (Wuhan with Han Chinese character logo). I am sure it's not rare like some of the goodies shared on this thread but not sure if it's really that hard to find. (although it did take me a while to find one.) what do you guys think?
> 
> Would appreciate any inputs from fellow WUS friends on authenticity, history or any information that will help me learn more about this watch. Thanks


Congratulations, it must be a rare watch. :-! I've never seen one like it either.

Wuhan Watch Factory was founded in 1970. Its early watches had movements manufactured elsewhere, and not many were produced. It began to manufacture its own tongji movements in the mid-1970s.

SZ1A on the dial suggests that this example should have a tongji movement. The watch's style looks like early to mid-1970s. It's probably a very early Wuhan tongji model.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

saskwatch said:


> Congratulations, it must be a rare watch. :-! I've never seen one like it either.
> 
> Wuhan Watch Factory was founded in 1970. Its early watches had movements manufactured elsewhere, and not many were produced. It began to manufacture its own tongji movements in the mid-1970s.
> 
> SZ1A on the dial suggests that this example should have a tongji movement. The watch's style looks like early to mid-1970s. It's probably a very early Wuhan tongji model.


Thanks Saskwatch! It does have a Tongji movement. Does SZ1A refers to Tongji movement regardless of brand?


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

bcy said:


> Thanks Saskwatch! It does have a Tongji movement. Does SZ1A refers to Tongji movement regardless of brand?


You're welcome. SZ1 was the code used for the tongji movement, but not all factories used it. Not long after production began, Beijing used its own factory code, SZB-1 or simply ZB-1. Soon other factories followed in Beijing's footsteps. Perhaps it was because there were many of them, and it seemed like a good idea to differentiate.

S = Shoubiao (wristwatch), Z = Zhongguo (China), 1 = the first movement of the series. Of course I don't know of a second. The letters follow the pattern set by watch factories before, e. g. _SS1_ for Shanghai, _SL1_ for Liaoning. _A_ usually meant a model with no calendar.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

saskwatch said:


> You're welcome. SZ1 was the code used for the tongji movement, but not all factories used it. Not long after production began, Beijing used its own factory code, SZB-1 or simply ZB-1. Soon other factories followed in Beijing's footsteps. Perhaps it was because there were many of them, and it seemed like a good idea to differentiate.
> 
> S = Shoubiao (wristwatch), Z = Zhongguo (China), 1 = the first movement of the series. Of course I don't know of a second. The letters follow the pattern set by watch factories before, e. g. _SS1_ for Shanghai, _SL1_ for Liaoning. _A_ usually meant a model with no calendar.


Now it all makes sense! Thanks for the explanation. So if some of the dial has 21800, what does that refer to?


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

bcy said:


> Now it all makes sense! Thanks for the explanation. So if some of the dial has 21800, what does that refer to?


21800 is an unusual number to see on a watch dial. 21600 appears quite often, however, especially on watches manufactured in the 1970s. It's the beat rate -- 21,600 beats per hour.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

I'd guess the 21800 is a typo.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

Interesting ... Mr Yang, the often mentioned vcm seller in Shanghai Dong Tai Lu, is collecting watches with 21800 printed on the dial. He showed a me a few of his collection including a BaoShiHua and Zuanshi. I wonder if it is just rare because it's typo batch, which is highly likely as we see that a lot... Hmm


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

bcy said:


> Interesting ... Mr Yang, the often mentioned vcm seller in Shanghai Dong Tai Lu, is collecting watches with 21800 printed on the dial. He showed a me a few of his collection including a BaoShiHua and Zuanshi. I wonder if it is just rare because it's typo batch, which is highly likely as we see that a lot... Hmm


My bad.. I got it all wrong. It wasn't 21800 but 28800. I guess this makes more sense now right?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

bcy said:


> My bad.. I got it all wrong. It wasn't 21800 but 28800. I guess this makes more sense now right?


That makes a lot more sense. A collection of VCMs bearing the dial inscription *28800* would be a very small but very valuable collection because it would include the Sea-Gull ST7 and ZuanShi SM2.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

Chascomm said:


> That makes a lot more sense. A collection of VCMs bearing the dial inscription *28800* would be a very small but very valuable collection because it would include the Sea-Gull ST7 and ZuanShi SM2.


️sorry for all the confusion. And the 28800 would be referring to the bph, I suppose?


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

I had a chance to see and hold this ZiJinShan recently... I think it's quite a rare piece with a fully decorated case back. The owner showed me but it's not for sale. I only have a standard version, ie plain dial without numeral and with plain non decorated case back... So having the opportunity to hold and see this in real life is quite exciting


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Yes. So '28800' designates a 'high beat' movement (by Chinese standards). Similarly, some older Tongji watches said '21600' to celebrate the fact that it was more modern than a lowly 18000bph. The Xiang Yang SD2 transistorised electric watch said '36000' on the dial (along with a transistor symbol), and some of the first quartz watches said '32768' to represent the quartz occillation in Hz.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Gorgeous bcy!

Something about that watch just makes me really homesick now...



bcy said:


> I had a chance to see and hold this ZiJinShan recently... I think it's quite a rare piece with a fully decorated case back. The owner showed me but it's not for sale. I only have a standard version, ie plain dial without numeral and with plain non decorated case back... So having the opportunity to hold and see this in real life is quite exciting


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

bcy said:


> I had a chance to see and hold this ZiJinShan recently... I think it's quite a rare piece with a fully decorated case back. The owner showed me but it's not for sale. I only have a standard version, ie plain dial without numeral and with plain non decorated case back... So having the opportunity to hold and see this in real life is quite exciting


A Zijinshan with a fully signed case-back is as rare as a hen's teeth.That is why the owner doesn't want to sell it.

I saw another very rare VCM. A Qionghua brand pocket watch with a date feature! It is not mine. I saw it on a Chinese auction site. Just when you thought you have seen everything of VCMs, there is something new!o|


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

soviet said:


> A Zijinshan with a fully signed case-back is as rare as a hen's teeth.That is why the owner doesn't want to sell it.
> 
> I saw another very rare VCM. A Qionghua brand pocket watch with a date feature! It is not mine. I saw it on a Chinese auction site. Just when you thought you have seen everything of VCMs, there is something new!o|


Wow! The Qionghua is really fascinating!! I have not collected any pocket watches yet but looks like maybe heading that direction ... Hmm.. Another level of addiction now


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Zhang and other experts, do you know anything about Hongqi pocket watches? There isn't much info online about VCM pocket watches apart from the Meihualu.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

soviet said:


> I saw another very rare VCM. A Qionghua brand pocket watch with a date feature! It is not mine. I saw it on a Chinese auction site. Just when you thought you have seen everything of VCMs, there is something new!o|


Oh Boy!!! What a catch for someone! It's the very first time a pocket watch has caught my eye like that. The dial is well beyond good. It's not a copy of anything I'm aware of, it's highly readable and the logo is eye candy.


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## hked (Oct 5, 2009)

My thoughts exactly Ron!

Hopefully Zhang can send me the link as my search last night was in vain. I did see some on a Chinese watch website going for RMB70 back in 2006, they even came with original boxes!!! The good ol' days


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

AlbertaTime said:


> Oh Boy!!! What a catch for someone! It's the very first time a pocket watch has caught my eye like that. The dial is well beyond good. It's not a copy of anything I'm aware of, it's highly readable and the logo is eye candy.


There are rare pieces like that out there. Once I saw a Zhongshan 9 jewels with date and day/night indicator in pristine condition! It was for auction at taobao only, not a convenient 'buy it now' price, and I was just too lazy to bid. I never see another one again.

Ed, I just sent you a private message. The site is 7788.com, another taobao type site for used items.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

monsieurxu said:


> Zhang and other experts, do you know anything about Hongqi pocket watches? There isn't much info online about VCM pocket watches apart from the Meihualu.


I don't know why I missed this. Sorry for a late reply.

I just grabbed an image of a Hongqi pocket watch from an auction site. There are various brands of pocket watches with this type of movement inside. I think the earliest is a Diamond brand pocket watch made by Shanghai 金声表厂（Jin Sheng Watch Factory) in early 1960's。Later a few other factories made similar watches of various brands. I think that these are not discussed much here is because it is a low quality watch. The movement has no jewels. So it is one of the rare Chinese pin-lever movement watches.
There are even better quality Chinese clocks with jewelled movements.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

soviet said:


> I am going to replace my car and I saw a Chinese economy car that looks very nice. That car would cost about the same as that 天津 1963。o|
> But it looks like the 天津 1963 will gain value and could cost the price of a luxury car in time.


I bought this new car last march, but did not drive it much for various reasons. It is a nice little car for down-town trips. The progress in this industry and others are promising in recent years. This car cost me about RMB 60,000 yuan only. The other models of this car could cost 35,000-40,000 RMB yuan only.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

The Diamond stopwatch is an earlier one that I did not think was a rare one. I recently found out that it is one of the test batch watches with a non-signed 17 jewels movement. So it is a rare one and I post some images here.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

A Guohua stopwatch. I don't remember seeing the movement before.


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## GUTuna (Dec 27, 2014)

Three new 7110 arrivals. More beautiful than I anticipated! Now I need strap suggestions.


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## saskwatch (Sep 17, 2010)

GUTuna said:


> Three new 7110 arrivals. More beautiful than I anticipated! Now I need strap suggestions.


All excellent examples. :-! I'm not good for strap suggestions, but here's mine on nylon.


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