# Steinhart - Ocean Titanium 500 GMT Premium: ETA 2893-2 movement grade?



## FabiB

Hi,

I guess this information could interest potential buyers.

On Steinhart web site, the movement of the new Steinhart Ocean Titanium 500 GMT Premium is reported as ETA 2893-2 _Premium._ However, as far as I know, ETA grades are Standard, Elabore, Top and Chronometer... but no "premium" grade!

I sent an email to Steinhart and received the following response:



> This model works with a *TOP* movement. We call it "Premium", since it is beautifully decorated.


I hope this information will be useful.

Regards,

FabiB


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## McHale

FabiB said:


> Hi,
> 
> I guess this information could interest potential buyers.
> 
> On Steinhart web site, the movement of the new Steinhart Ocean Titanium 500 GMT Premium is reported as ETA 2893-2 _Premium._ However, as far as I know, ETA grades are Standard, Elabore, Top and Chronometer... but no "premium" grade!
> 
> I sent an email to Steinhart and received the following response:
> 
> I hope this information will be useful.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> FabiB


I emailed them as well and got the exact same response. I mean, EXACT same. They didn't address my question about the upgraded balance wheel and spring that is typical of a TOP movement.


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## lvt

All in all, it might not be Top but well regulated and decorated Elabore movement.

I've owned a COSC watch but the movement isn't decorated. Personally I prefer the decoration over balance wheel.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## McHale

Hmmmm... Did Steinhart JUST change their website or is it just me? On the Ocean 500 Titanium Premium they advertise it as a TOP movement in the description:



> Inside the *Steinhart OCEAN Titanium**500 Premium* the premium movement 2892-A2 TOP of the Swiss company ETA performs its extremely precise service.


 
The Product Description below the picture seems to have changed. It NOW says:



> *MOVEMENT*
> 
> *ETA 2892-A2 Elaboré Premium
> 
> *


I could have sworn it called it an ETA 2892-A2 TOP there as well just a few days ago when I checked. If that's the case, I have little doubt that not only is it not simply a decorated TOP movement in the GMT but the standard Titanium 500 as well. Neither are TOP grade movements.


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## lvt

It seems that they have just updated the info.

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## Watchfreek

It maybe that they had wanted to change the spec on the GMT but mistakenly changed the spec on three hander OT500. Can someone post a photo of the balance wheel of an ETA 2892 OT500 (hacked, so we can see the spokes) so we can confirm if it is a TOP or Elabore grade?


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## richtel

Here's a couple of shots of my O1T500 and O1PremBlue. Both perform well. Both have straight, tapered spokes. Perhaps before we go and accuse Steinhart of mis-selling, it might be worth asking then to explain the discrepency- we see ETA literature specify a different mainspring, hairspring and shock system between their Top and Elabore which would be difficult to determine from a visual inspection, but ETA do not always absolutely specify the glucydur balance-


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## lvt

richtel said:


> Here's a couple of shots of my O1T500 and O1PremBlue. Both perform well. Both have straight, tapered spokes. Perhaps before we go and accuse Steinhart of mis-selling, it might be worth asking then to explain the discrepency- we see ETA literature specify a different mainspring, hairspring and shock system between their Top and Elabore which would be difficult to determine from a visual inspection, but ETA do not always absolutely specify the glucydur balance-


I think it's not the Glucydur balance wheel as expected on the Top grade.

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## Watchfreek

Many thanks for the photos richtel. Very interesting indeed! At first I expected the info about OT500GMT being a TOP grade was erroneous but now it seems the three hander and premium blue have the incorrect balance wheel (and presumably springs). In articles and forums that I've read on this topic, the COSC and TOP grades movements are always defined as having the glucydur balance and upgraded springs.

What makes things more confusing is, as expected, my OOVCs (Top grade 2824 with DD2020), Nav B Chrono Anniversary Edition, (COSC grade 7753), Marine Chronograph Nero LE (Top grade 7753) all have the Glucydur balance wheel etc, while my regular Marine Chronometers (Elabore 2824 with DD2030) also have the upgraded balance wheel. My only guess is the upgrade is necessary for the chrono mod.

I have already raised all the issues I noted with the company so they are aware of the ambiguities. Hopefully we will receive am explanation eventually (my guess is they will just clarify and correct any errors in their product descriptions, as they just attempted for the OT500GMT)


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## McHale

Merely lazily "correcting" the website doesn't change the fact that they advertised both watches as having TOP movements and people bought those watches thinking they were TOP movements. The only reason I purchased the Ocean Titanium 500 GMT is because Steinhart sent me an email stating it was a TOP movement in response to my asking why it didn't have TOP movement enhancements like upgraded balance wheel and spring. That being said, does the higher price for the Titanium models seem a little high when you find out it has the exact same internals as their watches costing much less?

FYI, ALL watches that were originally advertised as 2892 TOP movements have been changed on the website. The Ocean One Premium Blue suffered the same fate (and incomplete editing). So it looks like they don't sell a watch with a ETA's 2892 TOP or ETA 2893 TOP movement.


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## Watchfreek

Lets just wait till we get to the bottom of this before getting all wound up. There must be a logical reason for this besides an intent to deceive.....

Meanwhile, I personally have consolation in knowing I did not pay the price of a TOP grade movement any other brand would have charged, it is nicely decorated (hence costs involved) and it runs accurately as well as consistently, beyond a regular Elabore grade watch would (as with all Steinharts that i own).


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## McHale

I don't believe it was done with the intent to deceive. I don't think it was done on purpose. But I do think whoever does the website and the group that sets pricing believed it was a TOP movement, thus the premium price. Other than the Titanium and glass back, there are no significant differences between the GMT-Ocean 1 Black WITH ceramic bezel and the Ocean 500 GMT Titanium but there is a significant increase in price (€520.00 vs €660.00). That's about the difference I would expect to pay between an Elabore and TOP movement. I think it goes beyond a simple error in wording on the website.


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## sefrcoko

McHale said:


> I don't believe it was done with the intent to deceive. I don't think it was done on purpose. But I do think whoever does the website and the group that sets pricing believed it was a TOP movement, thus the premium price. Other than the Titanium and glass back, there are no significant differences between the GMT-Ocean 1 Black WITH ceramic bezel and the Ocean 500 GMT Titanium but there is a significant increase in price (€520.00 vs €660.00). That's about the difference I would expect to pay between an Elabore and TOP movement. I think it goes beyond a simple error in wording on the website.


If there was an error of any sort, I hope they are planning to do more than simply update their website...


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## richtel

I can't confirm because my boxes are currently in storage, but I'm pretty sure the registration card which came as part of the paperwork for the O1T500 and O1PremBlue stated Top version. Here's someone else's photo I found on t'interweb.


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## Eodtech

I just looked at my Reg Card for my OT500 Ti GMT and the movement isn't checked at all. The card is blank and no movement is specified. All of my other Reg Cards for my numerous Steinhart's contain a description of the movement for each individual watch. Thats kind of odd right? Even my original OT500 Ti with the SOPROD movement is checked, listed and described on the Reg Card. 

Situations like this have been my chief concern about Steinhart over the years. Their attention to detail, accuracy in shipping and customer service all need an "upgrade" if you will, in my opinion. They have amazing products and I absolutely love their watches. But it's situations like this I believe are damaging their reputation with loyal customers like me and possibly driving new customers away and to other brands. 

I hope they grasp the gravity of this situation and make a concerted effort to clarify and rectify it immediately. Just updating their website and hoping it goes away isn't going to cut it. The optics of this situation are not good. I am sure it is an honest mistake and a reasonable and logical explanation would go a long way, at least with me. 



Bob.


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## McHale

Mine JUST arrived, On the English page, it's marked as ETA 2893-2 Premium.


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## venturacounty

Same for mine.


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## JohnBPittsburgh

Just for curiosity sake, I just looked at my Ocean Titanium 500 registration card, and it is written in as:
500 Premium
then they checked the blank box, and wrote in ETA-2892 A2 Top

I think I posted a pic of the back of my watch, but I don't think I pulled the crown (I didn't know you could stop the balance wheel...learning curve with these watches!)  I don't know if I have the magical balance wheel or not, but it has been dead on or in its worst reading +5. 

That said, if Steinhart decided to mail me out a Glycadur or whatever balance wheel to hook it up to the next level, I wouldn't know what to do with it (maybe I can throw it at my cat like a Chinese star!) :-d:-d:-d I would be happy if they sent me an extra see through case back to put on my O1Black, or even agreed to sell me one!!! Come on Gunther!!! I need to stare at the back of my O1B!!!!

EDIT: I just pulled the crown, I don't have a curvy balance wheel, it's the straight spoke one.


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## pxl499

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> Just for curiosity sake, I just looked at my Ocean Titanium 500 registration card, and it is written in as:
> 500 Premium
> then they checked the blank box, and wrote in ETA-2892 A2 Top


I've received it two weeks ago, and the reg card states exactly the same.


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## titloveyou

I had 9 model of this brand so far( the GMT titanium will on hand tomorrow) but until now, just keep the blue premium and GMT 500, and happy with that 
I don't really care about the balance wheel, as long as it keep good time, reasonable price, awesome design - each watch do not stay with me over 3 years lol 
Enjoy your life and ignore all the small things !


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## sefrcoko

titloveyou said:


> I had 9 model of this brand so far( the GMT titanium will on hand tomorrow) but until now, just keep the blue premium and GMT 500, and happy with that
> I don't really care about the balance wheel, as long as it keep good time, reasonable price, awesome design - each watch do not stay with me over 3 years lol
> Enjoy your life and ignore all the small things !


Agreed. I don't think many will care too much about a balance wheel, but there's something wrong with selling one particular movement grade if it's really another (if that's actually what happened here). Like buying a v6 car but finding out it's v4, and then rationalizing by saying it gives better gas mileage anyways so who cares. Hopefully it's a simple mixup though, and Steinhart clarifies...or makes it right for those affected if errors were indeed made. Transparency is important of course.


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## Bajoporteno

Has anyone gotten a statement from Steinhart regarding this issue?


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## HayabusaRid3r1080

I'm happy with my Soprod OT500 ; ) 

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## titloveyou

Mine say hi with no issue of GMT hand, bezel mismatch or case-bracelet colour lol 

It's quite strange, the Blue premium had the note TOP in the warranty book, but my GMT 500 did not have TOP, only PREMIUM written in warranty book


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## McHale

titloveyou said:


> Mine say hi with no issue of GMT hand, bezel mismatch or case-bracelet colour lol
> 
> It's quite strange, the Blue premium had the note TOP in the warranty book, but my GMT 500 did not have TOP, only PREMIUM written in warranty book


My bracelet and bezel don't match the watch though I don't see it being as big of a deal as some have made it out to be. My biggest problem with the watch is the minute hand was installed about 5 minutes too fast so at noon, the hour and GMT hands are a few clicks behind the minute hand. I'm currently looking for a local watchmaker who can reinstall the hands for me. While I'm at it, I'm going to find out what it will cost to upgrade the movement to the TOP that I was expecting in this watch. Swapping the balance wheel and spring shouldn't be a big deal but I have NO idea about the shock protection. I believe the TOP movement has better shock protection than the Elabore uses.


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## Bajoporteno

It is a bit deceiving.... It should be noted as *TOP...*


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## pxl499

Bajoporteno said:


> Has anyone gotten a statement from Steinhart regarding this issue?


Yes, it has been confirmed that these are Elabore calibers, and the reg cards mistakenly state these as top (in case of OT500). Still, I've just checked the accuracy of mine and for 6 hours it is spot on. When arrived it was +12 sec/day, but then slowly settled down to this.


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## McHale

pxl499 said:


> Yes, it has been confirmed that these are Elabore calibers, and the reg cards mistakenly state these as top (in case of OT500). Still, I've just checked the accuracy of mine and for 6 hours it is spot on. When arrived it was +12 sec/day, but then slowly settled down to this.


They also "mistakenly" sent a bunch of us emails saying they were TOP movements as well. Legitimately, I *ONLY* purchased the watch because Steinhart confirmed via email that they were TOPs.


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## pxl499

McHale said:


> They also "mistakenly" sent a bunch of us emails saying they were TOP movements as well. Legitimately, I *ONLY* purchased the watch because Steinhart confirmed via email that they were TOPs.


I've just purchased the watch, so I would guess that it applies only to the latest batch when they went out from the top calibers, but did not update the website yet.


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## pxl499

After almost two days it is still in +5 sec, so that is not that bad, and maybe it will be better with time


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## hooperman42

So what is the real point? It's a Steinhart. Both movements keep the same time. It may have been incorrect but in the end who in the world does it matter? Premier by the way means it is their best of the their line just like adding a swan neck to the manual is a premier. But best to shop for higher end watches if split seconds are of concern. If its just the fact that you bought something and then later found out that it was not what was advertised I for sure see your point. So send it back. They will honor a return of something if not sold properly. Ive never had an issue with that. Im in your corner!


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## McHale

What it matters to me is that the TOP movement is a better movement. I believe the TOP movement has better shock protection, is more accurate, and more reliable. I ordered the watch when I received the email confirming it was a TOP movement. However, by the time I received my watch I discovered it wasn't a TOP but decided to keep it anyway. I have no intentions of sending it back or asking for a partial refund or anything and have already contacted a certified watchmaker in my state and am going to have him upgrade the watch with a TOP balance wheel, spring, and bridge. I have to take it to him anyway to fix the misaligned hands. But I like the watch and as stated previously, I don't believe there was any intent to deceive.


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## hooperman42

yes I agree. Its a shame you have to pay for that work though. In the end you are so right. You bought something and didnt get it. I am sorry for being so flip about it. But I agree with you. Kevin



McHale said:


> What it matters to me is that the TOP movement is a better movement. I believe the TOP movement has better shock protection, is more accurate, and more reliable. I ordered the watch when I received the email confirming it was a TOP movement. However, by the time I received my watch I discovered it wasn't a TOP but decided to keep it anyway. I have no intentions of sending it back or asking for a partial refund or anything and have already contacted a certified watchmaker in my state and am going to have him upgrade the watch with a TOP balance wheel, spring, and bridge. I have to take it to him anyway to fix the misaligned hands. But I like the watch and as stated previously, I don't believe there was any intent to deceive.


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## McHale

hooperman42 said:


> yes I agree. Its a shame you have to pay for that work though. In the end you are so right. You bought something and didnt get it. I am sorry for being so flip about it. But I agree with you. Kevin


No worries. As they say, "first world problems." The discussion is purely academic. To be fair, it's not like I expected a TOP ETA movement and got scammed with a $10 Chinese battery movement. It's still a good movement inside a feature packed watch at a good price. I only made the point because I passed on watches with the exact same movement which cost $200 to $300 less because I thought those movements were supposedly inferior to this one. I really feel no regrets for keeping it and since it's going to be my daily wearer for a long time, I don't mind investing a few dollars to improve it.

-Mc


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## Watchfreek

@McHale. It appears that you are getting a bit carried away by all this grade thing, and without sufficient understanding of what it's all about just going by fragmented comments here and elsewhere. 

The OT500's movement actually already has an upgraded shock system - you can easily see it and there is NO difference in the bridge. Also, what some owners have been trying to say is that the movements in these watches are already performing (particularly in terms of accuracy) as well as a Top grade one. It is the case with all Steinhart watches (unless they inherently have issues to start with). So by the same token, should owners be paying Steinhart extra for the value adds and extra effort in regulating their elabore grade movements? 

Realistically, so far I have been unable to find a watch with an advertised Top grade 2893 costing less than US$1,000, not even from unknown brands. The Squale 30 ATMOS ceramica, a very similar watch, without a titanium case or top grade movement is priced at about the same as, if not more than the OT500GMT. So have customers really paid too much for the OT500GMT's?

And btw, a Top grade movement is regulated in more positions than an Elabore movement, so merely changing the balance and mainspring is not going to elevate its grade. In fact, there are even more things done to a Top grade movement than merely a change of the shock system, balance wheel and mainspring (AFAIK, there's another spring and other conponents that gets upgraded).

As for reliability, the upgrades of a Top grade movement has little to do with it. With the exception of the shock system which may ensue the movement is able to take more shock, other upgrades assist in improvement in performance, improvements that you and I will probably not notice once it has been well regulated and is well maintained.

Of course, all the above do not make the use of erroneous information alright, but fact is customers have not really suffered (financially) as a consequence. I would therefore advise that you save yourself the trouble and some money with the mods that you are planning to do (you would also void your warranty too if you do) and just enjoy the watch. Or if you can't get over the feeling of having been conned into buying a watch without a Top grade movement, sell it and get a watch with a proper Top grade movement, but be aware that it'll probably be at double the price.


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## lvt

All watches with ETA movement movements probably will become standard grade once they are fully serviced, regardless of the original grade.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## Watchfreek

lvt said:


> All watches with ETA movement movements probably will become standard grade once they are fully serviced, regardless of the original grade.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


Given that performance is often quoted when referring to the grade of a watch, there is some truth in this. However, performance will deteriorate over time even more when not serviced. Depending on the watch maker and how much effort he puts into his work, and condition of components, a service can restore the original performance (or close to it) or not. As an example, whilst still within acceptable tolerances, my ST.1 Premium powered Steinharts, with all the bells and whistles on the movement, are not even as accurate as my regular 6497/8 watches after a year or two without service. So it goes both ways.

But that does not change the fact that a Top grade movement has supposedly better and more expensive components. Whether or not we as amateurs, can tell the difference in the real world is a different thing.


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## McHale

Watchfreek said:


> @McHale. It appears that you are getting a bit carried away by all this grade thing, and without sufficient understanding of what it's all about just going by fragmented comments here and elsewhere.
> 
> The OT500's movement actually already has an upgraded shock system - you can easily see it and there is NO difference in the bridge. Also, what some owners have been trying to say is that the movements in these watches are already performing (particularly in terms of accuracy) as well as a Top grade one. It is the case with all Steinhart watches (unless they inherently have issues to start with). So by the same token, should owners be paying Steinhart extra for the value adds and extra effort in regulating their elabore grade movements?
> 
> Realistically, so far I have been unable to find a watch with an advertised Top grade 2893 costing less than US$1,000, not even from unknown brands. The Squale 30 ATMOS ceramica, a very similar watch, without a titanium case or top grade movement is priced at about the same as, if not more than the OT500GMT. So have customers really paid too much for the OT500GMT's?
> 
> And btw, a Top grade movement is regulated in more positions than an Elabore movement, so merely changing the balance and mainspring is not going to elevate its grade. In fact, there are even more things done to a Top grade movement than merely a change of the shock system, balance wheel and mainspring (AFAIK, there's another spring and other conponents that gets upgraded).
> 
> As for reliability, the upgrades of a Top grade movement has little to do with it. With the exception of the shock system which may ensue the movement is able to take more shock, other upgrades assist in improvement in performance, improvements that you and I will probably not notice once it has been well regulated and is well maintained.
> 
> Of course, all the above do not make the use of erroneous information alright, but fact is customers have not really suffered (financially) as a consequence. I would therefore advise that you save yourself the trouble and some money with the mods that you are planning to do (you would also void your warranty too if you do) and just enjoy the watch. Or if you can't get over the feeling of having been conned into buying a watch without a Top grade movement, sell it and get a watch with a proper Top grade movement, but be aware that it'll probably be at double the price.



I appreciate the response but none of that reflects my thoughts on this watch or the movement "issue." I was pretty clear that I wasn't upset and I was also pretty clear that I don't think they tried to scam anyone and it was an honest mistake. My points that I DID make are very much valid: I sought out a watch with a TOP movement and contacted Steinhart directly to confirm what a licensed vendor (Gnomon) advertised the watch as. I ordered the watch under the CONFIRMED impression from Steinhart but discovered before receipt of the watch that was not the case but decided to keep the watch anyway because I liked the watch and it's a good watch for a good price. That being said, my reasons on WHY I want a TOP movement in a watch are my own whether they are on point or not. The reason I have chosen to replace the balance wheel, hair spring, and plate are because they come as a single assembly and is a relatively cheap and easy upgrade, one that will have the added benefit of upgrading the shock system from Etachoc to Incabloc (if it shipped with Etachoc). I *HAVE* to take the watch to a watchmaker to have the misaligned hands fixed regardless so for very little extra money I can upgrade some minor components of the movement. Seems like a win-win and a no brainer to me. If I came off as upset or that I feel they tried to purposely scam everybody that was never my intention and I honestly don't feel that way.

-Mc


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## Watchfreek

McHale said:


> I appreciate the response but none of that reflects my thoughts on this watch or the movement "issue." I was pretty clear that I wasn't upset and I was also pretty clear that I don't think they tried to scam anyone and it was an honest mistake. My points that I DID make are very much valid: I sought out a watch with a TOP movement and contacted Steinhart directly to confirm what a licensed vendor (Gnomon) advertised the watch as. I ordered the watch under the CONFIRMED impression from Steinhart but discovered before receipt of the watch that was not the case but decided to keep the watch anyway because I liked the watch and it's a good watch for a good price. That being said, my reasons on WHY I want a TOP movement in a watch are my own whether they are on point or not. The reason I have chosen to replace the balance wheel, hair spring, and plate are because they come as a single assembly and is a relatively cheap and easy upgrade, one that will have the added benefit of upgrading the shock system from Etachoc to Incabloc (if it shipped with Etachoc). I *HAVE* to take the watch to a watchmaker to have the misaligned hands fixed regardless so for very little extra money I can upgrade some minor components of the movement. Seems like a win-win and a no brainer to me. If I came off as upset or that I feel they tried to purposely scam everybody that was never my intention and I honestly don't feel that way.
> 
> -Mc


Thank you for your clarification. It makes sense and of course, entirely your decision. What's the cost of such a mod may i ask? I saw entire balance bridge with glucydur wheel and spring assemblies (but not sure if it is the upgraded mainspring) for 2892's (i.e. not 2893) on ebay for around $45 only. Are those original parts you're installing? By the plate, do you mean the bridge - what's different with the one you're getting? I am certainly very interested. I do hope you will share with us the experience and look forward to seeing what sort of improvements it will bring. If not too much trouble, timegrapher readings before and after the swap would be very useful. Cheers and good luck!


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## McHale

Watchfreek said:


> Thank you for your clarification. It makes sense and of course, entirely your decision. What's the cost of such a mod may i ask? I saw entire balance bridge with glucydur wheel and spring assemblies (but not sure if it is the upgraded mainspring) on ebay for around $45 only. Are those original parts you're installing? By the plate, do you mean the bridge - what's different with the one you're getting? I am certainly very interested. I do hope you will share with us the experience and look forward to seeing what sort it improvements it will bring. If not too much trouble, timegrapher readings before and after the swap would be very useful. Cheers and good luck!


He's charging me $40 an hour. Removing and replacing the hands should be about 30 mins and I'm *HOPING* the bridge swap can be done in an hour and a half. I have no idea what to expect for necessary adjustments. And yep, I meant bridge not plate. I sent a message to the ebay seller but didn't hear back on the what spring it is. Either way, I'll only put OEM ETA parts in. In real world numbers, I'm not certain the bridge upgrade will be noticeable but in theory the upgrades should be an improvement. There's a good thread here that explains the TOP upgrades and why they matter and the reasoning sounds great in theory. I don't own a timegrapher but I'm sure he does. I'll be sure to ask him for readings before and after.

I realize this simple mod doesn't make it a TOP movement but it's a small improvement over the stock. I've never been a big fan of elabore movements over standard. From what I've seen they are merely decorated standard movements with one more adjustment position and the possible upgrade in shock protection. A TOP movement on the other hand brings quite a few improvements which is why it costs about twice as much. I honestly believe the Ocean Titanium GMT was priced as if it contained a TOP movement but nobody knows for sure and it's not worth worrying about at this point.

-Mc


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## Watchfreek

Thanks for that again. Without the bonus incabloc upgrade, I too question the incremental improvement on performance of Elabores over Standard grade movements, especially if they were coming from Steinhart that seems to do a fantastic job regulating the movements on top of what ETA does. Sadly, even Hamilton (being part of the same group as ETA) has now downgraded their elabore movements with etachocs on their offerings that previously had incablocs....that's a big disappointment and certainly a plus for Steinhart watches.

Sure upgraded components will improve stability. In particular, the glucydur balance and upgraded springs (forgot the name of second one, but not sure you'll be.getting that anyway) are supposed to be more anti-magnetic but magnetization of the movement is something which we can easily avoid or fix, so just a nice-to-have, at least for regular users.

If you are referring to the balance bridge (not the main one), I believe it is the same but just that it's an integral part of the entire assembly that you're getting it. I'm assuming you'll also get another incabloc as that is what all the assemblies I've seen on eBay come with (naturally, as the glucydur should be paired with one in the Top grade specs).

Sure seems you know exactly what you're getting yourself into, great! It's certainly an interesting project. I hope the watchmaker doesn't need to spend too much time for your sake. The regulating may take a bit longer, depending on how dedicated on fine tuning it he is. In any case I eagerly await the results!


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## McHale

The only caveat I forgot to throw in my previous comment is that I'm waiting on an official quote. If it's too expensive I won't bother with anything but fixing the hands which will be $40 US or less. On the plus side, after talking to a bunch of watchmakers in Illinois, I'm glad I found one that knows his stuff and patiently answers questions from someone who doesn't always fully understand the questions.  I don't mind spending another $100 or so to upgrade the watch as it's going to be my daily for quite some time but if it's more expensive than that, I'll just put that money towards another watch. After all, you can never have too many watches. 

Thanks for the back and forth. You have given me some good info and some things to think about. 

-Mc


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## Watchfreek

McHale said:


> The only caveat I forgot to throw in my previous comment is that I'm waiting on an official quote. If it's too expensive I won't bother with anything but fixing the hands which will be $40 US or less. On the plus side, after talking to a bunch of watchmakers in Illinois, I'm glad I found one that known his stuff and patiently answers questions from someone who doesn't always fully understand the questions.  I don't mind spending another $100 or so to upgrade the watch as it's going to be my daily for quite some time but if it's more expensive than that, I'll just put that money towards another watch. After all, you can never have too many watches.
> 
> Thanks for the back and forth. You have given me some good info and some things to think about.
> 
> -Mc


Wow, labor is certainly off the charts in the US! 40 bucks for just readjusting the hands! This sort of work could well be free in Asia. Anyways... best of luck!

Yeah, my earlier point was really if it is going to cost you a kidney, you might as well just leave it. It's a great watch as it is.


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## lvt

Anyone has the proof that Steinhart does the timing and adjustment in-house? I've heard that the watches come pre-assembled from Switzerland and they only have to check the cosmetic and technical conditions of the watches, fit the bracelets... before shipment.

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## Watchfreek

lvt said:


> Anyone has the proof that Steinhart does the timing and adjustment in-house? I've heard that the watches come pre-assembled from Switzerland and they only have to check the cosmetic and technical conditions of the watches, fit the bracelets... before shipment.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


When referring to "Switzerland", people are talkng about the Steinhart workshop/factory in Jura, Switzerland. That's where the watches are assembled and presumably regulated by Steinhart's own watchmakers. The less technical stuff (e.g. installation of straps) are done in Augsburg, Germany.


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## lvt

If they have workshop in Switzerland, it's safe to say that it's an in-house job though.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## Watchfreek

As opposed to shared services/facilitaties? I am aware of some smaller brands that do that.


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## McHale

lvt said:


> Anyone has the proof that Steinhart does the timing and adjustment in-house? I've heard that the watches come pre-assembled from Switzerland and they only have to check the cosmetic and technical conditions of the watches, fit the bracelets... before shipment.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


My watch loses about 13 seconds every day. I have no doubt that these watches are mass-assembled, boxed and shipped. There's no watchmaker fine tuning anything. And I read a very detailed post on another forum about one user got a watch that was REALLY messed up and fixed it himself. When he ordered another it was also just as messed up so he sent it in for repair under warranty. When he got it back, it wasn't better and may have been worse. THIS is the reason I found my own watchmaker and won't send something in under warranty.


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## Watchfreek

McHale, i know for a fact, first hand that they have watchmakers assembling the watches, putting movements in the cases in switzerland etc. All my 30 Steinhart watches were <10s/d out of the box, well within ETA specs. They have more than one watchmaker in fact. When they were short on.OT500GMTs they had to stop all their other work on other models to focus on putting more stock together, just so they could clear the back orders for the summer break. I even spoke to one when I had a special order.......this information you are disseminating is untrue.


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## Watchfreek

What i am not sure of is whether they do an additional regulation of the movement before sending the watches to Gernany. However, judging by the performance of my sample of watches, straight out of the box, I suspect that they do.

McHale, the link to the thread does not seem to work. I am very interested to see what they say. Fact is haters will make up all sorts ot excuses or even lies to lobby support. I'm not saying you're one of them, of course. I think I already know roughly how you think.


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## McHale

Watchfreek said:


> What i am not sure of is whether they do an additional regulation of the movement before sending the watches to Gernany. However, judging by the performance of my sample of watches, straight out of the box, I suspect that they do.
> 
> McHale, the link to the thread does not seem to work. I am very interested to see what they say. Fact is haters will make up all sorts ot excuses or even lies to lobby support. I'm not saying you're one of them, of course. I think I already know roughly how you think.


Not a hater in the slightest. I really like my Steinhart (it's my first one) and am still wearing it daily. I'll PM you think link. Looks like the forum modifies the URL so I'll clear it from my post. It's a very detailed and interesting read (with a good number of photos). Even though the user had his problems with both watches he still says it's a great watch.


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## Watchfreek

Thanks for the link Mc. After reading the post, I can see where you're coming from with the conclusion that there was no watchmaker involved in the assembly process (at the time of the post, June 2015). As I mentioned in my reply to you, the post was over 2 years ago, at a time when the company had all sorts of QC problems, and which may have nothing to do with the presence watchmaker at all (depending on the actual assembly process). However, the OP's timegrapher results showed that the movement was performing exceptionally well for an elabore straight out of the box, which implies the possibility of further adjustments made by a watchmaker. 

In fact, some of the current watchmakers have actually been on board since day one of the company. So the ASSUMPTION that there was no watchmaker (at least at the time of the post) is incorrect.


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## paulyosh

I don't have any knowledge about additional tuning, but based on my small sample size of two, I'd assume so. I've had two OT500s, first ran +2-2.5 s/d, and the second about +1 s/d. Both were the ETA movement, and that was wearing 24/7 across at least a week. That's really, really amazing from my perspective. Just a data point...


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## titloveyou

I have to say that they are doing a good job. All my Steiny run between +-8s/day
Only problem of titanium 500 with Soprod movement which need to be re-lubricared by a local watchmaker, and it's still running +6s/day eh


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## richtel

I notice the website has been changed to alter the movement specification across all the premium divers from 'Top' to 'Elabore Premium', ensuring that the text in the description is the same as that in the tabulated specification. When all is said and done, while I still adore the half-dozen Steinharts I have, I confess that my confidence in the brand has been knocked a little. 

They still represent stunnng value for money for sure, but the (most likely) inadvertent mis-selling with no follow-up explanation from the company leaves some doubts as to the truthfulness in their descriptions. For example, today's website (July 30 '17) listing for the Premium Nav-B 44 still says 'Top', but given experience to date, I really doubt it is, and expect the web site to be changed shortly. All throughout, Steinhart have been quiet.


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## Watchfreek

richtel said:


> I notice the website has been changed to alter the movement specification across all the premium divers from 'Top' to 'Elabore Premium', ensuring that the text in the description is the same as that in the tabulated specification. When all is said and done, while I still adore the half-dozen Steinharts I have, I confess that my confidence in the brand has been knocked a little.
> 
> They still represent stunnng value for money for sure, but the (most likely) inadvertent mis-selling with no follow-up explanation from the company leaves some doubts as to the truthfulness in their descriptions. For example, today's website (July 30 '17) listing for the Premium Nav-B 44 still says 'Top', but given experience to date, I really doubt it is, and expect the web site to be changed shortly. All throughout, Steinhart have been quiet.


If you're referring to the auto variant of the Premium Nav B 44/47, it is (has been?) powered by an A10-2 (I haven't checked if they have now phased out the Soprods too on that model). AFAIK, Soprods aren't graded like ETA's but general consensus in the watch community is that they are equivalent to a Top grade ETA. However, from tests of my four Soprod powered watches, I struggle to see why they would be considered as Top grade, but that's just my opinion.

Edit: just checked. They now use 2892's in the premium Nav B's and the balance wheel in the photo is definitely not a glucydur wheel (ie not Top grade)....


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## Watchfreek

richtel said:


> All throughout, Steinhart have been quiet.


It seems to be their style (or culture?) unfortunately. No formal announcement was ever made for the automatically cancelled orders during the X'mas period that left a lot of OOVC customers baffled, worried, anxious....furious?

It'll certainly leave a bitter taste with some people but as you said, it doesn't take away the fact that their products are excellent value and desirable.


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## McHale

richtel said:


> ...leaves some doubts as to the truthfulness in their descriptions.


I don't think it's an issue with truthfulness as much as it's an issue with accuracy. While I wouldn't have purchased my watch had it not been confirmed as a TOP, I'm sure most people wouldn't care and sales wouldn't really have been affected had the pages been accurate. They really would have gained nothing by lying but they would have risked losing a lot of loyal customers if it were discovered they lied intentionally. People that design product websites typically have no idea about the products on the pages they create. They probably took an existing product page and modified it for the new products. It happens quite a bit. Don't forget, German is their native language.

Sadly, I don't think those of us that thought we were getting a TOP grade will be compensated in any way. My preference would be a TOP movement to replace the Elabore (which is hardly an upgrade over a standard movement). I'm not holding my breath though. Has anyone contacted them to see what they say?

-Mc


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## lvt

Watchfreek said:


> It seems to be their style (or culture?) unfortunately. No formal announcement was ever made for the automatically cancelled orders during the X'mas period that left a lot of OOVC customers baffled, worried, anxious....furious?
> 
> It'll certainly leave a bitter taste with some people but as you said, it doesn't take away the fact that their products are excellent value and desirable.


I think direct buyers like us here are in the minority. Most of their watches are sold through dealers. So maybe they work more closely with dealers rather than online buyers.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## pxl499

McHale said:


> Has anyone contacted them to see what they say? -Mc


They said I could send back - which I definitely won't. Honestly, I would be happy with a simple statement that "ok it was a mistake, sorry for that" or they can send a keychain with a Steinhart logo, or something just stating that they care. Offering a send back is okay, but without any comment I would consider a bit rude step.

In this situation the best would be a real supportive support, not just a tickbox like support: they have a problem -> they can send it back, job done!

Probably they have a small team with a bit larger amount of pressure than usual, I understood - but that small plus would involve the custumers to go back and buy another one. This whole watch business is more or less selling an image, and I'd consider this a bit failure in this regard.

That being said, this watch with this beutifully decorated ETA 2892 provides a tremendous value. The next divers with somewhat better than the usual ETA 2824 / S200 calibers are the Tudor Pelagos or Omegas. Would I be more happy with better support and with +200 EUR price? Probably yes, but others maybe not.

The Steinhart watches found they price range comfortably now and they won't change their business modell for my pleasure only. Now, it is my decision to accept this as is, or go for the luxury range. I would say, it is fair deal - I can accept it and I am happy with it, it is such a nice piece that I would have hard time to find a similalry unique and beautiful watch.

Yes, it is not top grade and the support is bit less satisfying. Okay then, but at the end of the day my money spent there to support them creating another nice watches and rectify the support issues finally


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## JohnBPittsburgh

I can only imagine what one day in the Steinhart store is like. Someone is in the back repairing all watches sent back, from misaligned hands to movement failures, warranty work, and older models. Someone is running the storefront, selling watches to walk ins, and their local customers. The web design guy is answering emails, updating pics and correcting mistakes on the website. Gunther is probably dealing with factories, clients, designing the next piece, and overseeing the whole operation. The shipping/receiving guy is probably slammed all day long filling orders, and doing a quick QC check, boxing them up, and shipping them out. 

I think the release of the OTBatman has jumped up their volume, and they are trying their best to handle it. English is not their first language. I think they are just trying to be effective in communicating, and not trying to be rude or offend people (I have sent a few emails, and all answers I've gotten have been short and to the point...whoever is in charge of their email, is definitely not trying to make the brand image as luxury)  

Glad you decided to keep it, and enjoy the watch!! (I would kill for a Steinhart keychain!!!! We should design one, and get it made!! I wonder if Steinhart would be mad if we made a Steinhart Ocean keychain or tshirt? It would be cool to have the design incorporate Watchuseek as well. I was ordering shirts for my company yesterday and was thinking about designing a shirt and getting a couple made for fun...the company we use does great work...I wonder if they have keychains!!!)


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## chucklafo

This is Email i send to Steinharte regarding there Ocean 500 GMT titaniun ETA grade.
I m interested in u r GMT titanium. I would like precise information on that Eta movement. In the ocean one premium blue it is Eta 2892 A2 Elabore premium, in the Ocean one titanium 500 it is a Eta 2892 A2 Premium, in the Ocean 1 vintage Dual Time it is a Sop a 10-24Top, in the Gmt Titanium it is a Eta 2893 2 Premium. Eta movements have four grades: Standard, Elabore, Top and Chronometer, Premium does not exist. So on what grade Eta u built u r premium GmtTitanium and what r the modifications. 
There response.
Hi, the GMT Titanium 500 _Premium works with an ETA 2893-2 Premium movement.
The lack of disclosure is strange, it is like they don t want to say witch grade they are using._


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## Watchfreek

Hi, is there a need to post EXACTLY the same LONG post twice? Do a search and you'll find your answers in this subforum. These matters have long been beaten to death already. However, if you still feel strongly that they have something to hide, may I suggest not ordering the said watch at all. You're never going to be content with that on the back of your mind.....and once you find out what happened before, I bet you're going to be even more paranoid.


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## Eodtech

I think he has actually posted it three times. Here, on the other OT500 GMT thread and the New Steinhart Owner thread too... :roll: I think your are right WF, I don't think he is going to he happy ever with the Movement Clarification Issues.


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## Watchfreek

Ha, thanks B. I'm not subscribed to that new owner thread so was spared from seeing it a third time


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## lvt

When someone posted the same info three times, at least I know that he is sincere.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## WilliamA

Watchfreek said:


> Hi, is there a need to post EXACTLY the same LONG post twice? Do a search and you'll find your answers in this subforum. These matters have long been beaten to death already. However, if you still feel strongly that they have something to hide, may I suggest not ordering the said watch at all. You're never going to be content with that on the back of your mind.....and once you find out what happened before, I bet you're going to be even more paranoid.


I honestly think he is right to ask this question until it has been cleared up.

One of the top reasons i really liked Steinhart was because they where offering top grade movemnets for a really good price. And now they have suddenly stoped offering that(top grade etas) and are really diffuse about what grade they are using. ETA does not offer a premium grade. So how long have they been offering decorated elebore(?) movements and calling them Top grade?

This is just bad business practice IMO.


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## Watchfreek

WilliamA said:


> I honestly think he is right to ask this question until it has been cleared up.
> 
> One of the top reasons i really liked Steinhart was because they where offering top grade movemnets for a really good price. And now they have suddenly stoped offering that(top grade etas) and are really diffuse about what grade they are using. ETA does not offer a premium grade. So how long have they been offering decorated elebore(?) movements and calling them Top grade?
> 
> This is just bad business practice IMO.


You're totally missing the point. Posted three times, consecutively and with the topic already covered many times before? I say that's pretty annoying and pointless.

So you worked out what grades ETA offers. No one ever said "Premium" was a grade, not even Steinhart and certainly never said it was one that is offered by ETA - get it out of your heads. Even Steinhart's very own ST.1 Premium's "premium" isn't a performance related grading - its just part of the name that distinguishes the movement's decoration and modifications. If the grade was THAT important to you, you should already know what grade it is just by looking at the movement. Obviously it's just for one's curiosity at this point.

If you also haven't worked out what actually happened, then you should just move on to other brands that you feel are being more transparent. Why part with your hard earned cash to someone you feel uncomfortable with or don't believe you're getting good value from? Its that simple.


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## WilliamA

It's very understandable that he is "angry" at Steinhart. And he got every right to be if he feel tricked by them. If they sell a watch with a TOP grade movement and then it turnes out to be an Elebore grade he should be mad. That is false marketing. And if you buy a watch expecting it to be a TOP grade(which is very important for many people including me). They should not exchange it for a lower grade movement. You bought the watch with a TOP grade then you should not get downgraded to a Elebore if they don't agree about that from the beginning.


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## trf2271

WilliamA said:


> No need to be rude to him. And i can't really see why you say he can't read/write. That has nothing to do with this honestly. Let's keep this conversation about watches and not about grammar.
> 
> It's very understandable that he is "angry" at Steinhart. And he got every right to be if he feel tricked by them. If they sell a watch with a TOP grade movement and then it turnes out to be an Elebore grade he should be mad. That is false marketing. And if you buy a watch expecting it to be a TOP grade(which is very important for many people including me). They should not exchange it for a lower grade movement. You bought the watch with a TOP grade then you should not get downgraded to a Elebore if they don't agree about that from the beginning.


I bought an OT500 in the first month they were released with the ETA movement and it was supposed to be a TOP grade. However, it's the same "elabore premium" judging by the balance wheel. I doubt any actually came with a TOP grade ETA which I think is deceptive. I haven't had any issues keeping time, but I can't say I'm not a little disappointed.


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## WilliamA

trf2271 said:


> I bought an OT500 in the first month they were released with the ETA movement and it was supposed to be a TOP grade. However, it's the same "elabore premium" judging by the balance wheel. I doubt any actually came with a TOP grade ETA which I think is deceptive. I haven't had any issues keeping time, but I can't say I'm not a little disappointed.


That's very dissapointing. It's one thing that they where a bit diffuse when they changed from top to elebore. They should have made it more clear. But if the "top grade" movements are actually elebore, That's false marketing without a question.


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## Watchfreek

WilliamA said:


> That's very dissapointing. It's one thing that they where a bit diffuse when they changed from top to elebore. They should have made it more clear. But if the "top grade" movements are actually elebore, That's false marketing without a question.


It is only FALSE marketing if there was a DELIBERATE intention of decieving the customers and actual losses incurred as a result. We do not know that for sure, right? I certainly don't but I do believe it was an innocent or careless mistake, knowing how Gunter operates.

At this point, it is an offence that is up to the courts to decide - even if Steinhart was considerate enough to.actually stipulate in an official announcement that the grade of the movements was indeed amended on their website, they are certainly not going to say "oh we did it so we could sell more" or "we are sorry, we had made a silly mistake because of......". Until then, such accusations can also potentially amount to defamation. We will only know for sure if and when someone decides to try the case in court. If you feel disgruntled enough, you are free to escalate the matter too or simply not buy from them again. The choice is yours and no one its going to disagree with that. At least that is how I try to see it.


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## JohnBPittsburgh

I realize that the horse has been dead for quite a while, and despite that, people are still kicking :-d

But I thought I was getting a Top movement, and upon reading this thread, found out it wasn't. It was at this point I figured I had two choices of action:
1. Return the watch to Steinhart, citing the error (I believe they would actually honor this request...but that's a guess)
2. Enjoy the watch as it is, and track the accuracy. Take note, to read more carefully when purchasing any watch (when I bought my watch, there was no mention of Elabore Premium...it was labeled TOP grade, both in description and the breakdown list)

I decided to keep it. It has been awesome!!! I love it!! Honestly, without the help of google, I couldn't tell you what the differences are between the movements. (I honestly don't care at this point) 

Watchfreak was one of the first (if not the first) people to welcome me to the forum and the Steinhart sub-forum. He has been a great source of information, friendly, and extremely helpful. If you enjoy Steinhart's, he is a great person to speak with. IMO of course :-!b-)

Enjoy your day, and whatever watch you are wearing, wear it in the best of health.


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## WilliamA

My point is that, I as a Steinhart fan think this is a problem. And for me, what grade the movement have is very important. I would gladly pay up to $200 just for a Top grade instead of an elebore. So if i bought a watch from Steinhart beliving it was a top grade, when it actually was a elebore. I would be very dissapointing. And for me that is missleading. 

Now, i havent bought any watches that may be effected buy this, but i thought about doing it. 

From my experience this falls under false/missleading marketing. 

A pretty similar case was when Nvidia(GPU manufacturer) released the gtx970. They advertised it as 4gb of VRAM. But 0.5gb of that memory was slower then the rest of the 3.5gb. They basically had to refund people(in some countires) because of this. They didnt intentionally lie. It had 4gb of VRAM. It was just a bit missleading. 

I think this is similar as a part of the movement(in that case the memory) is not as good as advertised. 

But of course. We dont know if this is true until Steinhart says anything. Maybe they used top grade before changing, who knows.


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## CMSgt Bo

Gentlemen,

Much to my dismay we've had to cleanup a food-fight here and hand out red cards to the main instigators. If the tomfoolery resumes, or new malarkey arises we'll have no choice than to temp-ban the culprits and close the thread, and I don't want to do that. Allow me to remind everyone of a few rules that are applicable to this thread:

Rule _2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the Moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the Moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language. __Members who have personal issues with other members and Moderators must resolve their differences outside the forum. WatchUSeek policy is not to discuss issues with other forums._

Rule _7. Please limit off-topic posts, and mark them clearly as such ("OT" in the subject line, and/or the OT or coffee cup icon). Please do not initiate or participate in political or religious debates. Also, consider whether WatchUseek's Public Forum or The Café might be a more appropriate place for your post. _

And rule _10. Don't engage in dialogue with a troll or a spammer. Report them to the Moderators or use the "report post" button located in each post._

As always, thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Brad
WUS Admin


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## McHale

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> I realize that the horse has been dead for quite a while, and despite that, people are still kicking :-d
> 
> But I thought I was getting a Top movement, and upon reading this thread, found out it wasn't. It was at this point I figured I had two choices of action:
> 1. Return the watch to Steinhart, citing the error (I believe they would actually honor this request...but that's a guess)
> 2. Enjoy the watch as it is, and track the accuracy. Take note, to read more carefully when purchasing any watch (when I bought my watch, there was no mention of Elabore Premium...it was labeled TOP grade, both in description and the breakdown list)
> 
> I decided to keep it. It has been awesome!!! I love it!! Honestly, without the help of google, I couldn't tell you what the differences are between the movements. (I honestly don't care at this point)
> 
> Watchfreak was one of the first (if not the first) people to welcome me to the forum and the Steinhart sub-forum. He has been a great source of information, friendly, and extremely helpful. If you enjoy Steinhart's, he is a great person to speak with. IMO of course :-!b-)


I confirmed with Steinhart I could return it with no questions. I decided to keep it as well. It's VERY accurate and it's a good looking watch (and super easy to ready in any condition). I'm glad you decided to keep it. You're going to love it for a long time.

As far as Watchfreek, I think you undersold him. We've had some great conversations via PM and I learned a lot from him every message he sent. I sincerely can't say enough good things about him. He's very knowledgeable and very helpful. He's quite an asset here at WUS.

-Mc


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## Green Highlander

Looks like the movement grade confusion is not limited to the folks on WUS. Gnomon is listing the O1 Premium Blue, OT500 & OT500 GMT as having TOP movements with a "golden Steinhart rotor"


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## jaacck

I was always having a good experience with Steinhart watches and customer services. However, this time, the issues regarding the movement grades are turning into quite a customer relation crisis. It is no doubt their fault for the misleading information about the watches. Understandably, Steinhart wants to deal with the issues privately and quietly. I do not believe Steinhart intentionally deceived costumers about the grade for better sale, and they sold the watches at reasonable prices for an elaborate movement. But I do think that Steinhart should be more active to compensate their customers with some small gifts for these issues and also hire more responsible, experienced, and knowledgeable people to manage their website. 

At the end of the day, customers thought that they pay the price for a steel watch and get a gold watch. It is a disappointment that it turns out to be still a steel watch. I think that the performance of the watches the most essential, accuracy and stability. Then, it comes to the customer services. So far, Steinhart does pretty decent job in most aspects. Of course, if you pay the price for a gold watch but getting a steel watch with a poor accuracy and a bad condition, you will have more than enough reasons to shame and condemn Steinhart to hell. This incident is not the case, I think.

Out of curiosity, does anyone get a top grade movement in their T500? Two obvious components are Glucydur gilt (vs nickel) and Incabloc anti-shock system (vs etachoc) according to eta technical details. Also, does anyone know the actual prices of standard,elaborate, top, and chronometer graded movement? I cannot find much information.


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## MichaelPsy

Hallo all, 
Im new at this forum and firstly i need to say Im not native english speaker, so sorry for my english.
Im owner of 2 Steinhart watches : Ocean one and Titanium 500, i bought titanium because i wanted better movement than in ocean one, more precisly working, more shock resistance, more and better andjustment of movement. Design was at second place. So i choosed T500 because oficial dealer has at eshop infos and claiming movement as TOP grade 2892-2.
Because im a student its very expensive for me and i sold my mountine bicycle and some other stuff to get budget. But im disappointed - Steinharts 500 is less precise working than ocean one and seems like no adjusted in 5 positions, seems like maximaly in 3 of them : +7 - 12 seks per day, depend on positioning of watches.
Fathers Seiko Skx007 has much more precise movement than my steinhart t500, they do stable +4s and when father put them crown up, at morning they are +/- 0s, out of box.

Few days ago when i searching at internet about precision of stainharts movements this thread and now im realy sad.
Im newbe in watches etc, is possible without opening the case of the watch only by photos someone say "this is elaboré, this is top grade" ?

Have a nice day 
Michael

View attachment DSC_0591.jpg
View attachment DSC_0560.jpg
View attachment DSC_0578.jpg






View attachment DSC_0587.jpg


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## MichaelPsy

Hallo,
just a question : is my movement in top grade ?


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## McHale

MichaelPsy said:


> Hallo,
> just a question : is my movement in top grade ?


Nope.


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## lvt

Just a bit beneath the Top.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## richtel

<tongue in cheek>










</tongue in cheek>


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## MichaelPsy

Hallo, 
thank you guys for answers. First of all, I have to apologize for my english, english is not my native language.

Im student and I had to sell a mountain bike to reach the money for steinhart titanium. I choosed titanium because it was declared as with TOP grade movement (eshop claim TOP grade - even in papers i have TOP), and for me it was that "selling point". Design was second only.

Im amateur / newbie in things around watches, can you guys me explain in detail how can i recognize grades of ETA movements by eye ? I even consulted this thing with watchmaker and he answered very widely and professionally - result - it is TOP grade movement. I sent him same pictures which i presented here in my first post. So now i dont know :-(


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## MichaelPsy

Ok i sent message and now i will have to wait for moderator ? Can a moderator make my message visible pls ? Thanks


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## McHale

MichaelPsy said:


> I even consulted this thing with watchmaker and he answered very widely and professionally - result - it is TOP grade movement.


Your watchmaker is wrong. And if indeed is a certified watchmaker, I'd find a new watchmaker. The easiest way to tell is the balance wheel (which is visible in your pictures of the back of the watch.

It should look like this:









Not this:









Your watch has the 2nd one.


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## MichaelPsy

Hallo,
thank you for explaination and anwser sir McHale |> But result is sad for me , i bought and paid for TOP and it is not TOP grade. Big disappointment here :-|
Have a nice day.

P.S. Thank you Moderator |>


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## McHale

MichaelPsy said:


> Hallo,
> thank you for explaination and anwser sir McHale |> But result is sad for me , i bought and paid for TOP and it is not TOP grade. Big disappointment here :-|
> Have a nice day.


Many of us felt the same way. If it makes you feel any better, a similar watch with the same movement is usually much more expensive with another name on the dial. It's a good watch and keeps very good time. If you like the look of the watch I would recommend keeping it. I was disappointed too and was told I could return it, no questions asked because of the screw up but after wearing it since I got it, it's my favorite watch. If you decide to return it, you may want to look around to compare similar watches. You may be shocked how much more expensive they are. Good luck with whatever you decide. And if you find a good watch with a TOP movement, be sure to let us know!

-Mc


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## MichaelPsy

Hallo sir McHalle,
thank you very much for reply. I realy understand your opinion sir and same opinion of other ppl those love steins titanium. 
But in my eyes its very disgusting game with false informations and false advertisement of steinhart and their official dealer.
I sent "my" watch back this day, coz if i would not send it back, for me its like supporting this disgusting behavior to customer. I have steins ocean one, with them i have no problem, i got what was claimed, advertised and what i paid for.
I spend whole last day to find some nice diver titanuim watch - nothing match . So i will wait for some new or different brand or i will choose in future different type of watch.
But without steins 500 elaboré, i have that bitter taste in mouth no more 

So thank you very much sir McHale for your quick help, and thanks others guys who answered 
Have a nice day.


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## MichaelPsy

McHale said:


> Good luck with whatever you decide. And if you find a good watch with a TOP movement, be sure to let us know!
> 
> -Mc


Ok im here with nice divers watch from titanium, in grey, black, blue, white colours, with eta REAL TOP movement 
French minibrand ARKONE. 
Here oficial web : https://www.akrone.fr/en/k-02/

Here some specs






























*Kickstarter link* : https://www.kickstarter.com/project...anium-diver-watch-swiss-automatic/description

650 Euros, titanium bracelet is as option for 65 Euros, i see only one minus, bracelet has pins, not screws as steinhart bracelet.
But sadly sold out :think:

Have a nice day,
Michael


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## Roger955

sefrcoko said:


> Agreed. I don't think many will care too much about a balance wheel, but there's something wrong with selling one particular movement grade if it's really another (if that's actually what happened here). Like buying a v6 car but finding out it's v4, and then rationalizing by saying it gives better gas mileage anyways so who cares. Hopefully it's a simple mixup though, and Steinhart clarifies...or makes it right for those affected if errors were indeed made. Transparency is important of course.


Poor analogy, given that V-4's scarcely exist.


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## erikesp

Interesting. I will have to look at mine when I get home. I thought it was a top movement as well.


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## percysmith

I wasn't looking to pick on Steinhart.
I'm not even too interested in Steinhart, its logo looks like Shrek and throws me off, I only came across this thread as part of some research I was doing on the SW330-1 movement in my Christopher Ward (which I eventually bought in lieu).

Steinhart's marketing is so confusing it is marginally non-compliant with the at least the Trade Descriptions Ordinance here.

Here's the description on their Vintage Red/Blue Keramik STEINHART GMT-OCEAN 1 BLACK Keramik | Taucheruhr bis 30 ATM :



















It wasn't such a big deal until I was looking at the Technical Brochure on the SW330 for the Christopher Ward, and found this http://www.sellita.ch/scripts/calibres/images/Brochure_technique-SW330-1_24.pdf#page=3 :










This is marginally a false trade description.
While Steinhart has been careful to include elabore
Is the second statement trying to suggest it actually had a Premium, which according to Sellita is a *Top* movement?


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## ronan_zj

its 2020 now, and Steinhart is still marketing the watch with TOP grade ETA movement, but it actually has elaboré one inside?


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