# Sticky  A High-end watches forum. Why?



## Ernie Romers

Recently one of our members contacted Hartmut Richter, moderator of our Zenith forum and asked him if a Ulysse Nardin forum would be possible here on watchuseek.com.

While this could have been a good idea we at Watchuseek believe it would be rather better to create a "high end watches" forum than a UN forum. 

Potential brands to be discussed here are:
Patek Philippe
Audemars Piguet
Vacheron Constantin
A. Lange & Söhne
Breguet

... plus a whole load of brands like Harry Winston, F.P. Journe, Christiaan van der Klaauw, etc.


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## Watchbreath

:-!


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## checknwatch

Very cool! I predict I'll be doing little if any posting but LOTS of lurking!:-!


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## novedl

good idea, and how about chopard and cartier?


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## lordsinclair

Good idea, Ernie.|> I know quite a few members have some fantastic high-end pieces, so hopefully this new forum will get some serious action.


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## TheBluePrince

Not forgetting Blancpain of course ;-)


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## kiwidj

Good to see! :-!


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## mikee

checknwatch said:


> Very cool! I predict I'll be doing little if any posting but LOTS of lurking!:-!


me too :-d


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## Reno

mikee said:


> me too :-d


+1 ;-) :roll:


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## igorycha

At last!!!!!!!
I was running to others forums to get info about JLC or UN. Now everything will be in one place. Greaat.


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## Redrum

Good.....
at last.....
a place were we can be safe from the Orange and Black Monsters.

Thank God

RR


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## J_Hack

I want to see some A. Lange and Sohne!!!


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## ulackfocus

Redrum said:


> Good.....
> at last.....
> a place were we can be safe from the Orange and Black Monsters.
> 
> Thank God
> 
> RR


Hey, easy now - I'll refer you to my signature:


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## Hartmut Richter

You can post/see Lange & Söhne here, but to a certain extent, these would not be out of place in the German Watches forum.

Although very few brands have been quoted by WatchUSeek admin, the list could easily be extended enormously. Certainly, Chopard & Cartier would feature, also Blancpain, JLC, Girard Perregaux, Glashütte Original, plus, plus, plus..... The idea is to let the forum regulars decide what is high end and what isn't. Someone posting an ordinary Type X brand watch with little finissage on a standard ETA or other generic movement may not find their post "moved to a more suitable forum" but can probably expect some slightly more than sarcastic comments from the general community.

Potential users should also be aware that some high end watches already have their own forum (e.g. Zenith, Omega, Rolex). If you have specific questions on your watches that cannot be answered here, it might be worth posting there also since the people with the greatest know-how will tend to congregate there. This is *not* intended to scare you away from here - please by all means, keep the posts coming!

Hartmut Richter


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## nbourbaki

Very cool, almost missed the new forum. Looking forward to some great discussions.


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## Janne

I have also missed this new Forum since it started. Would be better if the place was moved, maybe above the "Affordables" Forum?? :-d


I understand that this Forum should cater for both New and Vintage High End watches?
IMO, a High End watch is not only guided by $$, but also by craftmanship, excellence in design etc.
IMO2: Even some base-ETA powered watches should have a space here, if they show some nice modifications.

Just my 2 coconuts.


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## IcedOut

mikee said:


> me too :-d


haha, me three on that one.... for now. ;-)


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## ElChingon7

Just noticed this sub forum, but I'm new here...


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## Arthur H

mikee said:


> me too :-d


+1.:-!


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## KXL

Watchuseek Admin said:


> Recently one of our members contacted Hartmut Richter, moderator of our Zenith forum and asked him if a Ulysse Nardin forum would be possible here on watchuseek.com.
> 
> While this could have been a good idea we at Watchuseek believe it would be rather better to create a "high end watches" forum than a UN forum.
> 
> Potential brands to be discussed here are:
> Patek Philippe
> Audemars Piguet
> Vacheron Constantin
> A. Lange & Söhne
> Breguet
> 
> ... plus a whole load of brands like Harry Winston, F.P. Journe, Christiaan van der Klaauw, etc.


Sir,
Love your web site :-! :-!

Love the idea of a high end watches forum :-! :-!

Don't get why your home page link to Forums haven't been updated to include all your themes--- <| ---making it hard for the new user to actually find this theme as well as the Clock World theme, Fashion theme etc...

On your home page if you click on the Forums link [between Shop and News] you miss many of the new Theme Forums. If instead you click the upper right larger font Forums then you go straight to the Forums main page which includes sub fora. Only then can you find the newer themes.

Recommend you update the Themes that can be found under Forum and leave all the sub fora under the Forums Main Page....my guess is that you will see an increase in traffic by doing so. KX


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## Ernie Romers

Done, thanks much :-!


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## BenL

Excellent! :-!


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## jobryan

I'd love to see a Breguet forum more then anything. They're my favorite company hands down. When do you think these forums will get up and running? Also which forums have you decided on?


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## jobryan

jobryan said:


> I'd love to see a Breguet forum more then anything. They're my favorite company hands down. When do you think these forums will get up and running? Also which forums have you decided on?


 whups i was a little confused on what you were saying. thought you were thinking about making a forum for some of these watches. Nevermind


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## watchwatcher2010

Patek Philippe all the way, absolute class!


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## Benjamin Chin

*Click on attached file for watch classifications:*


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## StufflerMike

As always: not a complete overview.


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## Lemper

watchwatcher2010 said:


> Patek Philippe all the way, absolute class!


Totally agreed!


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## I Like em BIG ! !

Redrum said:


> Good.....
> at last.....
> a place were we can be safe from the *Orange and Black Monsters.
> 
> Thank God
> *
> RR


*... And G-Schlocks!!!*


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## Crunchy

It's been a little quiet around here, perhaps we can 'advertise' on the public or other forum to invite people to contribute here?


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## heuerolexomega

There is no general consensus of what high-end means (is perception) So people that should be posting here don't post here and the opposite happens too when people post topics that don't apply. It would be easier to name the brands that are applicable, it would be less confusing. The problem is that there are so many brands, so maybe break in two, the A forum for the main brands and B for the less known. Just thinking out loud.....


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## GETS

To be honest it is very rare that a post is "out of place" in here. Most members seem to have a good idea of what "High End" is and post topics and watches appropriately.

I do agree it is quiet in here though. But then again if it was super busy then it would indicate everyone had - or intended to have - high end watches. And then by default they couldn't really be high end anymore. No?


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## heuerolexomega

GETS said:


> To be honest it is very rare that a post is "out of place" in here. Most members seem to have a good idea of what "High End" is and post topics and watches appropriately.
> 
> I do agree it is quiet in here though. But then again if it was super busy then it would indicate everyone had - or intended to have - high end watches. And then by default they couldn't really be high end anymore. No?


True, I guess there is some shady points that we won't be able to distinguished exactly where to make the line. Like a Rolex for example, for some people it will be considered high end but for others it would be a sacrilege!


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## GETS

I think Rolex has a place in here - plus it has it's own section in the forum as well.

Plenty of places to post up your Rollies!


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## heuerolexomega

What about IWC?, one time I post IWC here and I got flamed! Saying go to the public forum:-s


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## Crunchy

heuerolexomega said:


> There is no general consensus of what high-end means (is perception) So people that should be posting here don't post here and the opposite happens too when people post topics that don't apply. It would be easier to name the brands that are applicable, it would be less confusing. The problem is that there are so many brands, so maybe break in two, the A forum for the main brands and B for the less known. Just thinking out loud.....


Yes I agree with this. We definitely need some sort of criteria, no matter how arbitrary. The mods and admins own the rights to make rules on the forum, so I believe whatever decision they make people will just follow.

Perhaps other than classifying the brands, just make a cut off price, say above $10k or something. How can watches above $10k not be considered high end? A cut off price point will also help brands like IWC, because some houses make entry level to very high end pieces. IWC makes some perpetual calendars, minute repeaters and tourbillons at very high end levels and prices, I don't see why those watches can't be discussed here.


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## BenL

Crunchy said:


> Yes I agree with this. We definitely need some sort of criteria, no matter how arbitrary. The mods and admins own the rights to make rules on the forum, so I believe whatever decision they make people will just follow.
> 
> Perhaps other than classifying the brands, just make a cut off price, say above $10k or something. How can watches above $10k not be considered high end? A cut off price point will also help brands like IWC, because some houses make entry level to very high end pieces. IWC makes some perpetual calendars, minute repeaters and tourbillons at very high end levels and prices, I don't see why those watches can't be discussed here.


I think perhaps it makes less sense to define what brand should be considered "high end", and probably more sense to consider what model is considered "high end". Some brands have very wide ranges.

For example, I personally feel that there are quite a few high end Rolex/Panerai/IWC/etc models that would belong here, but certainly not the bulk of their offerings.


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## GETS

We're going a bit off topic here - something I guess the mods will tell us soon enough.

Maybe we should discuss the matter here on a thread that was set up for this kind of debate? It's only a few pages long!

https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/watch-brands-belong-high-end-forum-ones-do-not-565559.html


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## The Naf

heuerolexomega said:


> What about IWC?, one time I post IWC here and I got flamed! Saying go to the public forum:-s


I think IWC is like the seiko of the middle range brands...i.e. it offers everything from the portofino line which I would deem at least a couple of notches below Rolex to the very palatable Portuguese line all the way up to minute repeaters and Perpetual calenders...so I guess it depends on which IWC...does Rolex have a place here...I can't say for sure but I wouldn't consider it with the Likes of PP, VC, ALS, GO, JLC et al...

But who am I to say...I normally hang out in the affordable section and just come here to increase my knowledge as well as hoping for some watch p-rn 

haha can't believe that word is filtered lol


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## Lemper

The Naf said:


> I think IWC is like the seiko of the middle range brands...i.e. it offers everything from the portofino line which I would deem at least a couple of notches below Rolex to the very palatable Portuguese line all the way up to minute repeaters and Perpetual calenders...so I guess it depends on which IWC...does Rolex have a place here...I can't say for sure but I wouldn't consider it with the Likes of PP, VC, ALS, GO, JLC et al...
> 
> But who am I to say...I normally hang out in the affordable section and just come here to increase my knowledge as well as hoping for some watch p-rn
> 
> haha can't believe that word is filtered lol


You are probably right on that!


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## shnjb

a moderator should advertise this sub-forum in the public forum.


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## Tourbeon

shnjb said:


> a moderator should advertise this sub-forum in the public forum.


Agreed


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## Crunchy

shnjb said:


> a moderator should advertise this sub-forum in the public forum.


+2


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## shnjb

what do u guys think about putting guidance as subforum subtitle? 

for instance a list of brands with etc at the end and price range. price range would be controversial and would create some buzz as well

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4


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## shnjb

shnjb said:


> what do u guys think about putting guidance as subforum subtitle?
> 
> for instance a list of brands with etc at the end and price range. price range would be controversial and would create some buzz as well
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4


in fact if you made the forum title $15000 and up or something it would Really become populated. a lot of trolls too for sure but more members too I imagine

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4


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## Crunchy

shnjb said:


> in fact if you made the forum title $15000 and up or something it would Really become populated. a lot of trolls too for sure but more members too I imagine
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4


yea i agree w this.


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## westlake

shnjb said:


> in fact if you made the forum title $15000 and up or something it would Really become populated. a lot of trolls too for sure but more members too I imagine
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4


Excellent suggestion.


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## heuerolexomega

shnjb said:


> in fact if you made the forum title $15000 and up or something it would Really become populated. a lot of trolls too for sure but more members too I imagine
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4


I say "it makes sense". I recently completed online one of those questionnaires that want to know what kind of watches do you buy, how many watches a year, price range, favorites brand, etc..
And If I remember correctly one of the parameters or questions they use is How many watches have you bought this year at $15,000 or above? I am thinking there is a reason why they pick this number. These people are trying to target the High end Market and see tendencies for their marketing.
So yes $15,000 sounds about right.


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## westlake

heuerolexomega said:


> I say "it makes sense". I recently completed online one of those questionnaires that want to know what kind of watches do you buy, how many watches a year, price range, favorites brand, etc..
> And If I remember correctly one of the parameters or questions they use is How many watches have you bought this year at $15,000 or above? I am thinking there is a reason why they pick this number. These people are trying to target the High end Market and see tendencies for their marketing.
> So yes $15,000 sounds about right.


I agree with everything said, but at $15,000 I think it might dissuade member participation and might end up only attracting a handful of us discussing things on a regular basis. Not sure I want to start a thread or poll on this, but the vast majority of people on WUS think $5,000 is "high-end" - so 3x that amount is probably at the infamous "1%er" level with all the associative (pejorative maybe?) aspects to go along with it. For discussions purposes, I propose $10,000.


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## heuerolexomega

westlake said:


> I agree with everything said, but at $15,000 I think it might dissuade member participation and might end up only attracting a handful of us discussing things on a regular basis. Not sure I want to start a thread or poll on this, but the vast majority of people on WUS think $5,000 is "high-end" - so 3x that amount is probably at the infamous "1%er" level with all the associative (pejorative maybe?) aspects to go along with it. For discussions purposes, I propose $10,000.


With one guideline (10k, 15k, 11.5k whatever!) that we could agree will be more than great!


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## Galactic Sushiman

I vote $10k. There are fantastic watches that everyone here consider high end in the 10 to 15k range, hell, even the mighty APRO 15300st could be bought for less than $15k new, and it is one of the most discussed watch on this subforum...

In terms of phrasing let me humbly suggest "High end ($10k+ MSRP)"? Or should we stay away from the idea of MSRP?


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## amine

Well, in this case a bunch of other watches would also qualify, Rolex for instance (Daytona & Co.) and which i don't agree with, i'd leave it the way it is, people who peruse this sub forum have already an idea about what kind of timepieces and brands (criteria) are targeted down here.


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## Galactic Sushiman

amine said:


> Well, in this case a bunch of other watches would also qualify, Rolex for instance (Daytona & Co.) and which i don't agree with, i'd leave it the way it is, people who peruse this sub forum have already an idea about what kind of timepieces and brands (criteria) are targeted down here.


Oh we all know from history that there is no "magic number" that we will all agree on, and I agree with your comment regarding Rolex. That said we are trying to make this subforum a bit more lively and a price point would definitely help


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## heuerolexomega

Anything above $12,995 (Daytona MSRP)


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## westlake

heuerolexomega said:


> Anything above $12,995 (Daytona MSRP)


Oh contraire my friend...Hands-On With The 50th Anniversary Rolex Cosmograph Daytona In Platinum Reference 116506 (Live Pics, Full Details, Pricing)

I am sure its worth every penny of that $75,000 MSRP.


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## heuerolexomega

westlake said:


> Oh contraire my friend...Hands-On With The 50th Anniversary Rolex Cosmograph Daytona In Platinum Reference 116506 (Live Pics, Full Details, Pricing)
> 
> I am sure its worth every penny of that $75,000 MSRP.


That to me is High End, I was talking of the steel version. So 13k could be a good number to everybody agree so you can avoid the more common rolexes.


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## westlake

heuerolexomega said:


> That to me is High End, I was talking of the steel version. So 13k could be a good number to everybody agree so you can avoid the more common rolexes.


I understand and generally agree if that's the consensus of the group.
On that note, how many regular contributors are there to the High End Forum anyway?


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## shnjb

So then why bot just make it "more expensive than Daytona"


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## lmcgbaj

If you put the target on MSRP you might get some Invitas in here even though the owner got it at 99.99% discount. Just saying.

Market value is a better indicator and 10k is a good target. If a watch keeps it resale value above 10k, it's a high end watch one way or another. No?


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## shnjb

lmcgbaj said:


> If you put the target on MSRP you might get some Invitas in here even though the owner got it at 99.99% discount. Just saying.
> 
> Market value is a better indicator and 10k is a good target. If a watch keeps it resale value above 10k, it's a high end watch one way or another. No?


MSRP is simpler.
It's clearly not perfect but when we get invicta people's posts we can collectively laugh at them.


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## heuerolexomega

I really like anything above Daytona > about 13k. But now I am thinking what about MSRP increases every year? Unless is ok to change the name every year, otherwise it will be always off. I even thought of naming it "Anything above Daytona" but that is probably worst. Dead end again ?


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## lmcgbaj

"Anything above Daytona" sound really bad.

Also keep in mind that by excluding the 10k-15k category, a lot of watches will be excluded that deserve to be here. For example, quite a few of the VC Overseas, lots of JLCs, lots of GOs, even the AP RO is borderline. Not sure if this is the intent.


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## heuerolexomega

Like I said "dead end" I really want it this. But obviously there is no consensus. I am fine with some JLC , some GO and the basic Overseas out.


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## iim7v7im7

Honestly, Ernie created this forum as a general repository to discuss "high end" watches instead of creating individual brand forum as other watch discussion boards have without defining what those are other than citing a few examples in the header post. 4-years latter, after endless posts and efforts to define "high-end", threads like this continue. Luxury hobbyists seem to love to define classes/tiers of the genus horologica, perhaps to bolster their own sense of exclusivity?

In general, if there is a brand forum discuss the watch there. I think the question comes down to is how is this forum different than the General Forum? People utilize that forum when there is not a brand forum, they want a more balanced commentary or the topic is general in nature. Again, I repeat; what is different about this forum? Yes, the watches are more expensive, they typically are produced in limited numbers and the participants are in turn fewer but in general possess relevant knowledge.

Why do we need a definition? Occasionally, someone may ask a question that might be better answered in another forum. Participants can respond in kind or a moderator might move the post. Other forums have solved said issue by setting up more specific forums. If WUS want's to keep a high-end forum, i don't see a burning need for a definition. In general, I find that the forum works in terms of its content.

Nuf Said


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## heuerolexomega

My final advise is this: Let the title of the Forum be "High End watches" the way it's always been but add a paranthesis underneath in smaller font indicating the range of watches.


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## shnjb

I thought the point was to create controversy to increase number of posts?

If you put 10k or above Daytona, it will probably be a more lively forum.
Otherwise if it's just for clarification, we can give a short list of brands with etc at the end.


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## SFoskett

Interestingly, Swatch Group helpfully labels their own brands according to market tier!

http://www.swatchgroup.com/en/brands_and_companies/watches_and_jewelry/prestige_and_luxury_range

"Breguet, Harry Winston, Blancpain, Glashütte Original, Jaquet Droz, Léon Hatot and Omega"

With the possible exception of Omega, I'd think any of these brands belongs in this forum.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## davvman

I want a BLANCPAIN section !!!





...if I may express this wish.


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## shnjb

SFoskett said:


> Interestingly, Swatch Group helpfully labels their own brands according to market tier!
> 
> http://www.swatchgroup.com/en/brands_and_companies/watches_and_jewelry/prestige_and_luxury_range
> 
> "Breguet, Harry Winston, Blancpain, Glashütte Original, Jaquet Droz, Léon Hatot and Omega"
> 
> With the possible exception of Omega, I'd think any of these brands belongs in this forum.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Why is the omega aqua terra not a high end watch?


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## SFoskett

shnjb said:


> Why is the omega aqua terra not a high end watch?


I am not going to be drawn into this argument!  That's why is said "possible exception" - to reflect that ongoing discussion.


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## shnjb

SFoskett said:


> I am not going to be drawn into this argument!  That's why is said "possible exception" - to reflect that ongoing discussion.


Why is Rolex air king not a high end watch?


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## Kenneth Cole Haan

There have been several threads on here asking the same question: what is high-end? In fact, that seems to be the most contentious and common topic here. I dare to add my views, based on little experience but some introspection.

I dare to claim to know the difference between high-end and mere luxury--what they call luxury today, I mean. For starters, high-end means artisanal works of highest quality. I would say "handmade" instead of artisanal but there is an honest confusion between pure handmade, and the general meaning of handmade; the first means without an assembly line, the second only made with greater time and care. Someone told me that the Robert Persig "quality" formula was based on "quality = time". Time not only in how long the work was in production, but also in design, and also the training of the watchmakers and even the history of the brand, building on its pedigree. The more time, the more quality. High-end watches, therefore, at the simplest level, have more time put into them than other watches. This time, or quality, can be sensed, but the better our taste and judgement, the better we can do this; those without, are like a bystander who walked by when I was looking at a photograph of a Breguet La Tradition for sale, and asked why anyone would pay so much when a cell-phone can keep time as well. It is not that his judgement overall is bad, and it is probably better than mine, but he has not spent the time to examine the merchandise.

I started off cheap but as I looked and looked at each brand, I realized that the "high end" brands are so superior in artistic design, quality, workmanship, there is just no comparison with even regular "luxury" brands.

In person the quality of a high-end item can be sensed, though on camera they look more like toys. But in person they feel substantial, both precious jewelry and functional machine. They are really "jewelry for men", both elegant, delicate, and masculine.

My two favorites: _Breguet _& _FP Journe. _These and the other brands to me are like the Rolls Royce (or Ferrari) of watches. They are not mere watches, but works of art; jewelry, and priced accordingly.

To me, the test of high-end is a brand based on true _quality _first and _marketing _second, as opposed to non-high-end, (sometimes called "luxury") which is based on _marketing_ first and _quality _second. In this, it is like the stereotypical used-car salesman, pushy because his vehicles are rusted-out-undercarriage lemons. Such a salesman must be pushy and a fast-talker since his products cannot sell themselves.

Another test to me is whether the work can be easily imitated. When I saw the dial of a FP Journe _Chronometre Bleu, _one of my thoughts was that it was unique, since I had never seen any dial of such a midnight blue color, not even the Rolex & Omega blue dials could compare. I would be surprised if any offshore factory could create the same; besides, to imitate would be a contradiction, as the imitation would cost near as much if it were a true replica, which would defeat the purpose of replicating it.

Branding is vulgar: True high-end products achieve recognition without branding; the design itself, without logos, allows us to identify it. Just like I can identify an Hermes tie, though there is no "H" logo, by the silk twill and the "whimsical" design patterns. For FP Journe, the second I saw it, even before I knew anything about movements or details, I could tell it was incredibly "French" in design. Take away the logo entirely, I can spot it at a distance.

I would also note that high-end products, be they clothing, automobiles, jewelry, watches, are (ironically) not wasteful but economical and environmental, as they are never thrown away, barring some unlikely trauma. Ferrari automobiles don't go "out of date" in style or performance; neither do Hermes scarves.

Visiting the Tourneau Time-Machine's top floor, and experiencing clumsy/aggressive salesmanship (Financing! 12 months no interest!!! Buy BUY BUY!) I had to walk away in disgust. This is because high-end watches are designed by and for those of a certain judgement; Toyota created Lexus to have not just a separate marque but separate dealerships, marketing, all designed for a different customer. The executives at Toyota know very well there are different levels of judgement as well as taste in the population, and design the buying experience accordingly. High-end is simply products designed for the group of customers that has the most refined judgement, and the means to act upon it. Relativistic counter-arguments, such as "it is high-end if it is high-end to you" are not based on fact, and frankly, if "snobbery" exists, it would exist more in those who think nobody could have better taste & judgement than themselves.


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## shnjb

I was being sarcastic.


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## Kenneth Cole Haan

I was not responding to you, and in fact, I have no idea what an "Air King" is. Is it a comfortable type of Mattress? Does it come in California King? I prefer Tempurpedic.


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## shnjb

I don't know.
But it is about as high end as an Aqua Terra.

I prefer latex mattresses though.
Synthetic foam is no good.


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## entropy96

How about making this forum exclusive for Haute Horlogerie pieces and high-end independents only?

Anything below $15k would be moved to the General Forum, or to other more appropriate sections.


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## GETS

entropy96 said:


> How about making this forum exclusive for Haute Horlogerie pieces and high-end independents only?
> 
> Anything below $15k would be moved to the General Forum, or to other more appropriate sections.


An idea.

Now get a consensus on the definition of "Haute Horology"!


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## entropy96

GETS said:


> An idea.
> 
> Now get a consensus on the definition of "Haute Horology"!


Tourbillons, minute repeaters, open-heart dials, skeletonized dials, grand complications, and avant-garde movements costing not less than $20k?


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## GETS

entropy96 said:


> Tourbillons, minute repeaters, open-heart dials, skeletonized dials, grand complications, and avant-garde movements costing not less than $20k?


To my knowledge there is not an agreed definition of haute horology. It's a bit like saying "high end" which we all disagree about as well!


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## heuerolexomega

GETS said:


> An idea.
> 
> Now get a consensus on the definition of "Haute Horology"!


Literally it means "high watchmaking." Many in the watchmaking community understand it to refer more specifically to high dollar watchmaking rather than high quality watchmaking


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## vince.cb

Great idea! I will definitely be keeping an eye out for this particular thread


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## Baguette

Gotta love this thread!


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## Mondial

What constitutes an high-end watch? Price? There are many over priced watches out there. Quality of build? There are many quality built watches that are inexpensive. I need to know.


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## Polke45

Mondial said:


> What constitutes an high-end watch? Price? There are many over priced watches out there. Quality of build? There are many quality built watches that are inexpensive. I need to know.


This answer will vary depend who you ask, but most agrees that in order for a watch to be high-end, the brand does not mass produce watch. As for price, the lowest end model for that particular brand can't exceed the minimum of 5k or so.

If you ask someone if a 200k Tag Hueur is high-end, most people in this forum will say no though outside of this forum, half of the people will say yes.


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## vip1985

I've always wondered why JLC isn't considered top-notch like the big 3 Audemars Piguet, Vacheron Constantin & Patek Philippe. Jaeger Le-Coultre may not be as old as VC but its old enough and has enough heritage & innovations to put many high-end brands to shame, some examples > the Reverso GMT/Master Calendar. Its all 100% in-house too, I certainly cannot conceive of any situation where A.Lange & Sohne is above JLC, yes I'm aware of the controversial statement I've just made. Maybe I'm still new to the scene but I've done my fair share of research.. JLC's higher end models put just about everything to shame and are certainly far more complex than what ALS has done so far. 

Yes I know between VC, ALS & JLC we're only squabbling about 3 brands under the same roof but JLC is just so underrated for what they seem to offer with 100% in-house manufacture, specialists in tourbillon & gyro-tourbillon, perpetual calendar movements, 8 day power reserve, ticking seconds movement like quartz, double sided movement etc. If ALS had the Grand Complication JLC had the Hybris Mechanica Grand Sonnerie. I understand that VC is top league simply due to its age & experience as also is Patek Philippe. I feel JLC should be part of the big 3 at the very least, not taking away the sheer quality & brilliance of the other brands mentioned above of course. Am I missing something?


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## mlcor

vip1985 said:


> I've always wondered why JLC isn't considered top-notch like the big 3 Audemars Piguet, Vacheron Constantin & Patek Philippe. Jaeger Le-Coultre may not be as old as VC but its old enough and has enough heritage & innovations to put many high-end brands to shame, some examples > the Reverso GMT/Master Calendar. Its all 100% in-house too, I certainly cannot conceive of any situation where A.Lange & Sohne is above JLC, yes I'm aware of the controversial statement I've just made. Maybe I'm still new to the scene but I've done my fair share of research.. JLC's higher end models put just about everything to shame and are certainly far more complex than what ALS has done so far.
> 
> Yes I know between VC, ALS & JLC we're only squabbling about 3 brands under the same roof but JLC is just so underrated for what they seem to offer with 100% in-house manufacture, specialists in tourbillon & gyro-tourbillon, perpetual calendar movements, 8 day power reserve, ticking seconds movement like quartz, double sided movement etc. If ALS had the Grand Complication JLC had the Hybris Mechanica Grand Sonnerie. I understand that VC is top league simply due to its age & experience as also is Patek Philippe. I feel JLC should be part of the big 3 at the very least, not taking away the sheer quality & brilliance of the other brands mentioned above of course. Am I missing something?


Depends. How many of each brand have you owned or at least handled in the flesh, to carefully examine them? If the answer is "zero", or at least "almost zero", then, yes, you are missing something. If the answer is "several of each", and that's still your opinion, then to each his own. Personally, I own a JLC, an AP and a VC, and have handled quite a few PP and Lange watches, and I do believe the AP, Lange, PP and VC are above JLC in quality of finishing, both dials and movements. Which is not to say JLC isn't excellent, it is. But there are fine gradations IMO. Your opinion, of course, may vary.

Having said that, I think most folks on this forum would agree that JLC is high end (although not as high as some others).


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## vip1985

mlcor said:


> Depends. How many of each brand have you owned or at least handled in the flesh, to carefully examine them? If the answer is "zero", or at least "almost zero", then, yes, you are missing something. If the answer is "several of each", and that's still your opinion, then to each his own.


Thanks for the reply, maybe I've still a bit to go to understand the gradations. Yep I've looked at a very expensive Lange 1 (gold) from most angles in person, and the comparatively "cheaper" gold Saxonia.. and then there was this little gem by JLC Master Control Geographic Reserve de Marche with rose gold case, which was less than half the price of the Lange 1 and slightly cheaper than Saxonia (couple of thousand $ which is a lot). Its finishing was exquisite while having far more complications than the Lange. Maybe in my view I equate value to the number of complications + finishing which JLC is great at in equal measure. Not that I can afford anywhere close to either of these but my tastes are still in development I guess. I'm not at the stage where I can split hairs and understand that a white dial plain cased Patek is better than a Master Calendar.


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## mlcor

vip1985 said:


> Thanks for the reply, maybe I've still a bit to go to understand the gradations. Yep I've looked at a very expensive Lange 1 (gold) from most angles in person, and the comparatively "cheaper" gold Saxonia.. and then there was this little gem by JLC Master Control Geographic Reserve de Marche with rose gold case, which was less than half the price of the Lange 1 and slightly cheaper than Saxonia (couple of thousand $ which is a lot). Its finishing was exquisite while having far more complications than the Lange. Maybe in my view I equate value to the number of complications + finishing which JLC is great at in equal measure. Not that I can afford anywhere close to either of these but my tastes are still in development I guess. I'm not at the stage where I can split hairs and understand that a white dial plain cased Patek is better than a Master Calendar.


There's no doubt that JLC punches well out of its weight class when it comes to watches with complications and excellent finishing; you can get complicated JLCs for a fraction of the cost of a similarly equipped PP or Lange. I salute those who are willing to pay double or more for maybe a 10% improvement on finishing that is already excellent. Personally, perhaps thankfully for my wallet, I'm not big on super-complicated watches.


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## BreguetBrat

Surely any watch above 25K can be considered "HIGH END"..?


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## murokello

BreguetBrat said:


> Surely any watch above 25K can be considered "HIGH END"..?


Well no. We all know that you like SOLID GOLD watches but the price is not what makes a high end watch. Hope this does not disappoint you too much.


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## diegohwang

I’ve been wondering where the AP forum was at... been hiding here all along


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## seek3r

BreguetBrat said:


> Surely any watch above 25K can be considered "HIGH END"..?


High end, maybe, haute horologie, not always...

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Pongster

Is a high end watch synonymous with a luxury watch?

Is it the brand which is high end? Or a particular watch/model?

Price alone doesnt determine if it qualifies?


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## Contaygious

Too bad Lange isn't high end enough for here or German enough for German forum. This is a joke btw.


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## dbostedo

Contaygious said:


> Too bad Lange isn't high end enough for here or German enough for German forum.


What does that mean? Lange is talked about on the high-end forum all the time.


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## StufflerMike

Contaygious said:


> Too bad Lange isn't high end enough for here or German enough for German forum.











A. Lange & Söhne


Dedicated to Lange & Söhne watches. Lange & Söhne is a German watch brand part of the Richemont Group.




www.watchuseek.com


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## Pongster

^ So we cant talk about ALS here or in German subforum? Only in its own sub forum?


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## dbostedo

Pongster said:


> ^ So we cant talk about ALS here or in German subforum? Only in its own sub forum?


Not sure why you'd think that... you can talk about Lange all three places (German, High-end, Lange). There's even the occassional Lange thread in the Public Forum. I'm still not sure why @Contaygious posted his note.


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## Contaygious

It was a joke sorry. Just find it funny how some brands have their own forum but are also high end while some don't. Patek vs lange


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## Pongster

Found this list -









Most Expensive Watch Brands In The World | WP Diamonds


Read the WP Diamonds countdown of the 12 most expensive watch brands and learn why they reign supreme in performance and price.



www.wpdiamonds.com


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## kuni12345678

I have a friend who collects rare Patek Phillipe and showed me one that was one of ten produced. He said that this watch was worth about $500K and if I wanted rare Patek he could sell me some from his collection.


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## GrouchoM

kuni12345678 said:


> I have a friend who collects rare Patek Phillipe and showed me one that was one of ten produced. He said that this watch was worth about $500K and if I wanted rare Patek he could sell me some from his collection.


Doesn't he know that friends and money should never mix? He should just give you one (or more).


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## Michael5959

What constitutes high end? Is it price, exclusivity, some other attribute, or all the above?


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## dbostedo

Michael5959 said:


> What constitutes high end? Is it price, exclusivity, some other attribute, or all the above?


I'd suggest starting with a read through this thread:









High-end Watches Definition


Dear all. I think it is the time to make a list of "High-end Watches" and "Exceptional Watches". It is happening to many times that we speak about middle class watches as something worth. It is enough. Or not? Regards




www.watchuseek.com





There are many others if you search, some linked in the thread I posted...


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## watchmamba24

Michael5959 said:


> What constitutes high end? Is it price, exclusivity, some other attribute, or all the above?


I'd say most likely the brand and the value they carry. High end is all relative as if you're poor you probably look at a $1000 watch as high end but if your wealthy that could be a patek. I would use anything that holds value as a benchmark, Breitling, Omega, Bell&Ross, Cartier, Rolex, AP, Patek, UN, and stay away from things you'd find in malls like michael kors and things of that nature.


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## dbostedo

watchmamba24 said:


> I'd say most likely the brand and the value they carry. High end is all relative as if you're poor you probably look at a $1000 watch as high end but if your wealthy that could be a patek. I would use anything that holds value as a benchmark, Breitling, Omega, Bell&Ross, Cartier, Rolex, AP, Patek, UN, and stay away from things you'd find in malls like michael kors and things of that nature.


I'll repeat myself and also suggest you read through this thread:









High-end Watches Definition


Dear all. I think it is the time to make a list of "High-end Watches" and "Exceptional Watches". It is happening to many times that we speak about middle class watches as something worth. It is enough. Or not? Regards




www.watchuseek.com





And also feel free to search for the many other threads on what constitutes high end _for the purposes of this forum._ Breitling, Omega, Bell & Ross, and Rolex are, in general, not high end.


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## mudmud

We should have a forum dedicated to Independent watchmakers!


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## anonymousmoose

dbostedo said:


> And also feel free to search for the many other threads on what constitutes high end _for the purposes of this forum._ Breitling, Omega, Bell & Ross, and Rolex are, in general, not high end.


Shhhhh, better not let my Omega's hear that


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## runhmc

GrouchoM said:


> Doesn't he know that friends and money should never mix? He should just give you one (or more).


Now that would be a great friend.


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## Pongster

Why not?


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## medmike

Always need high end everything 😊🙌


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## FuzeDude

The term High End is meaningless.

I once had a friend tell me that PF Chang was "High End" Asian food.


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## gangrel

FuzeDude said:


> The term High End is meaningless.
> 
> I once had a friend tell me that PF Chang was "High End" Asian food.


Nebulous perhaps, but not meaningless.
Most things are relative, but that doesn't mean we can't try. Dismissing it as meaningless makes me ask, then why are you posting?


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## FuzeDude

gangrel said:


> Nebulous perhaps, but not meaningless.
> Most things are relative, but that doesn't mean we can't try. Dismissing it as meaningless makes me ask, then why are you posting?


Simply to give you a reason to respond......

Your day is now complete.


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## orioner

love the idea


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## MD11

FuzeDude said:


> The term High End is meaningless.
> 
> I once had a friend tell me that PF Chang was "High End" Asian food.


read a great book called "White Trash, and Red Lobster"

for me High End is watch making is along the lines of the holy trinity (AP, VC and PP) or above.. meaning FP Journe, Phillips Dufour, Roger Smith, etc..


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