# Longines VHP accuracy



## Hans Moleman

Fellow watch nerds!

I have a Longines Conquest VHP watch that runs too fast. Faster than the 10 seconds per year that Longines advertises with. My watch gains 5 seconds per month. Almost a minute per year.
I have been keeping an eye on it, for a few months now, and it is *very* consistent at gaining one second every 6.5 days.

It might be due for a new battery since it is almost 8 years old. The second sweep still moves every second though.

It has been quite good so far, although I have not paid it as much attention before. I think it used to be one or two seconds out per month.

Anyone else has experiences with a VHP? I read that the rate can be adjusted when serviced. Is that a good idea? Who could do that?

It is a 1999 Conquest Perpetual Calendar Calibre 546. It has 'L1.632.4' inscribed on the back. Not too sure what that stands for.

Cheers
Hans.


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## artec

Hans Moleman said:


> Fellow watch nerds!
> 
> I have a Longines Conquest VHP watch that runs too fast. Faster than the 10 seconds per year that Longines advertises with. My watch gains 5 seconds per month. Almost a minute per year.
> I have been keeping an eye on it, for a few months now, and it is *very* consistent at gaining one second every 6.5 days.
> 
> It might be due for a new battery since it is almost 8 years old. The second sweep still moves every second though.
> 
> It has been quite good so far, although I have not paid it as much attention before. I think it used to be one or two seconds out per month.
> 
> Anyone else has experiences with a VHP? I read that the rate can be adjusted when serviced. Is that a good idea? Who could do that?
> 
> It is a 1999 Conquest Perpetual Calendar Calibre 546. It has 'L1.632.4' inscribed on the back. Not too sure what that stands for.
> 
> Cheers
> Hans.


I daresay he'll respond himself but ppaulusz has posted in a recent thread describing how he adjusted his VHP. It was within the last couple of weeks so you could probably find it if you searched backwards. I followed up with him (because I've just bought an NIB VHP myself and he was kind enough to e-mail me the ETA Service manual on the watch. I've read the instructions on making the adjustment and it doesn't sound all that difficult though I haven't tried it. I've only had the watch two days so adjustment might be a little premature.
If ppaulusz doesn't offer help, I could probably e-mail you the book. Send me a pm if you want me to, but don't expect any detailed advice for obvious reasons!


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## Eeeb

You will find a full thread on this topic in the meritorious threads sticky at the top of the page... full instructions are therein contained!!

You can do the adjustment yourself if you can pop off the back, have some spare wires, a 3 volt battery or power supply and have three hands :-d ... check the thread.


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## Hans Moleman

Excellent!
Looks like I came at the right time.

I've got all I need to have a go now.
Thanks for all the pointers.


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## ppaulusz

Good luck, Hans!
The Boys already told you everything you have to know. The Longines caliber L.546 is in fact an ETA 252.611 Thetmoline caliber. The calibration is not difficult but care should be taken! First make sure you know what needs to be done and do one or two demo runs without touching the terminals. Then you can do the real thing by following the guide in the service manual to the letter!


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## Bruce Reding

Let us know how it goes, Hans!


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## Hans Moleman

Now that I have read the thread on watch regulation, I have to thank you and other members for sharing your experiences so freely!
Especially the link to the ETA calibre is invaluable. 

I know now that I am not the only one with a VHP watch that is out of spec. Not because of faulty workmanship, but because of lack of adjustment.

A few points remain:
- I need to find a helpful jeweler who can open the case.
- This watch is worn continuously. Do you recommend that I keep wearing it, while I
regulate it? 

Thanks
Hans.


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## Eeeb

Hans Moleman said:


> ...
> - This watch is worn continuously. Do you recommend that I keep wearing it, while I regulate it?


One of the wonderful things about ETA thermocompensated movements is it makes no difference how much you wear them... They do not rely on any sort of wrist time to keep them accurate.

It does help to avoid extreme temperatures... at very high and very low temperatures the compensation needed is quite high and inaccuracy can increase.

I'd just use the watch as you would normally. But if you are planning a trip to the South Pole while you are regulating it, I'd keep it inside the sleeve of the parka :-d


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## Eeeb

Hans Moleman said:


> ...
> 
> It is a 1999 Conquest Perpetual Calendar Calibre 546. It has 'L1.632.4' inscribed on the back. Not too sure what that stands for.


Longines has a website that contains a wealth of data.

On it we can see the L546 is a quartz resonator, 25.60mm in diameter with a thickness of 5.00 mm, uses a CR2015 Renata battery which produces a specified power reserve of 120 months, has a stated accuracy of +- 1 second/month and uses a base calibre of an ETA 252.611 which has 11 jewels.

As you can see, Longines is quite conservative in it's specs.

The model numbering reference shows the following for L1.632.4:
"L" -- it's a Longines!
"1" -- it's in the "1" family (I think this is the Conquests)
"6" -- it's a man's sized watch
"32" -- a consecutive number assigned to identify models (I think this is the Perpetual VHP)
"4" -- case material = stainless steel

There are two more possible numbers, xx.y to identify a very specific model. The xx shows the dial and the y shows the strap.


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## artec

Eeeb said:


> Longines has a website that contains a wealth of data.
> 
> On it we can see the L546 is a quartz resonator, 25.60mm in diameter with a thickness of 5.00 mm, uses a CR2015 Renata battery which produces a specified power reserve of 120 months, has a stated accuracy of +- 1 second/month and uses a base calibre of an ETA 252.611 which has 11 jewels.
> 
> As you can see, Longines is quite conservative in it's specs.
> 
> The model numbering reference shows the following for L1.632.4:
> "L" -- it's a Longines!
> "1" -- it's in the "1" family (I think this is the Conquests)
> "6" -- it's a man's sized watch
> "32" -- a consecutive number assigned to identify models (I think this is the Perpetual VHP)
> "4" -- case material = stainless steel
> 
> There are two more possible numbers, xx.y to identify a very specific model. The xx shows the dial and the y shows the strap.


I have a VHP Conquest with the number L1 636.4 on the back, as well as a number as long as a car's VIN (the serial number from the warranty card). My L number is the same as yours except for the second 6 replacing your 2. Production year, maybe?

From the Longines importer, I understand that the black-faced model had a number of L 16364566. The first 6 characters are the same as those on the back of my watch. The model number on my warranty card is L 16364966 and mine has a blue face, so the ante-penultimate number is probably the dial color, as you suggest. Mine has an integral bracelet and if it came with a strap, the case would have have different lugs....... maybe the last two identify case and strap? Mine is the first I've ever seen, so I have no idea whether they were available on straps.


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## ppaulusz

artec said:


> ...Mine is the first I've ever seen, so I have no idea whether they were available on straps.


Every Conquest VHP from the first model in 1984 (dual-oscillator) to the last production series with perpetual calendar around 2002 had integrated metal bracelet (stainless steel or titanium).
From 2002 till 2006 the Flagship models were fitted with the VHP perpetual calendar movement and those ones were available with stainless steel bracelet or alternatively leather straps


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## Hans Moleman

I really would like to get this watch to run a few seconds off per year.

First hurdle; getting the back off and keeping it off so that I can adjust it a few more times until I am satisfied with the rate.
I tried a simple trick with a piece of inner tube. The rubber is quite soft and sticks well to the embossed back. Pressing down with my fingers and turning at the same time, the back slowly turned. You can only tell by the orientation of the embossing that it is turning though. No chisels required!

Once open its inner guts looked exactly like on one of the photographs. Only a lot smaller! 
I soldered wires to three needles. Two for the power supply and one for the pulses. A washing peg kept the wires attached to the battery that had to come out and now served as an external power supply.

A few deep breaths and off it went. Balancing the two power supply needles with my left hand, I was dishing out the pulses with my right. 14 taps later I was happy it was all over and removed the power.

Battery back in, and I was relieved to see that the patient had not died. The date wheel was turning, which stopped after it had done its thing and the second arm was ticking away.

That was two days ago, and I don't think it has made a difference. But reading the manual again, I missed two instructions. The part of pushing the crown in after the tap adjustments, and waiting for 5 seconds before disconnecting the power. I am not too sure yet how I'll push in the crown while balancing the two power needles. 

I might construct a small rig so that I don't have to hold these power needles all the time. 

Anyway. I'll have to wait a week, to see if it is off to its usual 1 second gain per week. If that is the case I know for sure that I did not make any adjustments and I can repeat most of the above. 

I don't like doing it, but I like it that it can be done.
Cheers.
Hans.


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> ...I don't like doing it, but I like it that it can be done...


Exactly my sentiment!
Congratulations and let us know about the results!:-!
The need for external power supply makes it more cumbersome for the ones with 3V lithium battery.


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## Hans Moleman

Very little progress so far after the second attempt.
The good news is that the watch is so far out of spec that its quickly obvious that the regulation hasn't worked. Every cloud has its silver lining!

The last effort I made sure that the external power supply works. The clock is ticking when the crown is in 'position one' and stops when in 'position three'. 
The only thing I can think of now, is that I administer my correction pulses too quickly. I pulsed at two pulses every second or so. I have 14 pulses to go through, so obviously I was in a hurry. 

I guess the little computer inside has to differentiate between bounces and proper pulses. 
What do you think, do I need to take my time with these pulses?

Cheers
Hans.


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## Eeeb

I doubt there is 'debounce' software. However, there is a clue in the statement that you need to make sure you leave the power on for 5 seconds after entering the correction count. It is quite possible the cpu does not 'strobe' the register (that is, does not record that a pulse took place) except every 5 seconds. So I would try making each pulse last longer with a bit more than 5 seconds between pulses...

George only needed to do one pulse to correct his VHP. I only just got an external DC power supply and haven't tried it yet. You are another pioneer -- you can always tell them by the arrows sticking out of their back! :-d

Good luck.


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## ppaulusz

Eeeb said:


> I doubt there is 'debounce' software. However, there is a clue in the statement that you need to make sure you leave the power on for 5 seconds after entering the correction count. It is quite possible the cpu does not 'strobe' the register (that is, does not record that a pulse took place) except every 5 seconds. So I would try making each pulse last longer with a bit more than 5 seconds between pulses...


There is no harm to wait 5 seconds between impulses but it is not necessary. Let's not forget that the ETA technical manual details the steps and includes all the info needed. It does not specify 5 seconds periods between impulses. Check the manual of the ETA 252.611's sibling, the ETA 252.511! These movements are almost identical. The only difference is the battery. The manual of the ETA 252.511 does not specify any period of time between impulses either.


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> Very little progress so far after the second attempt.
> The good news is that the watch is so far out of spec that its quickly obvious that the regulation hasn't worked...


OK, so the _very_ _little progress_ in fact means no progress at all. Since you have checked your power supply and it did work there is only one explanation left for the failed attempt: There is something wrong with your procedure. 
Would you mind to describe _your_ procedure in details (step by step)? Please include _everything_ you do during the procedure so we can see where the problem is. I'm sure we can come up with the right solution.


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## Hans Moleman

The 'little progress' is an example of British understatement. It is supposed to be funny. 
Here are the steps. The more eyes the better.

1. Put watch in cradle. It locks it into place.
2. Open back.
3. Put crown in position 3.
4. Remove battery. 
4. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals. As in diagram on page 19. The cradle holds these needles into place. I still have two hands available.
5. Connect the battery (that came out) to wires that are soldered to these needles.
6. Confirm that the watch runs on the battery via the needles by pushing the crown into position 0. Once released, it flips back to position 1, the date ring turns, then ticks normally. It will not run until pushed into the 0 position.
7. Pull crown to position 3 again.
8. With one more needle connected to the '+' of the battery; tap the 'C-' patch 14 times.
9. Wait 5 seconds.
10. Push crown into position 0.
11. Release crown and let it settle into position 1.
12. The date ring turns. The second arm ticks.
13. Pull crown to position 3.
14. Remove needles.
15. Insert battery.
16. Close watch.
17. Push crown to position 0.
18. Release crown. It will settle in position 1.
19. The date ring turns. The second arm ticks.
20. Adjust time.
21. Check rate.

I don't really know what happens when the date ring turns. I am too slow with turning the cradle over.

Thanks guys!


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> The 'little progress' is an example of British understatement. It is supposed to be funny.
> Here are the steps. The more eyes the better.
> 
> 1. Put watch in cradle. It locks it into place.
> 2. Open back.
> 3. Put crown in position 3.
> 4. Remove battery.
> 4. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals. As in diagram on page 19. The cradle holds these needles into place. I still have two hands available.
> 5. Connect the battery (that came out) to wires that are soldered to these needles.
> 6. Confirm that the watch runs on the battery via the needles by pushing the crown into position 0. Once released, it flips back to position 1, the date ring turns, then ticks normally. It will not run until pushed into the 0 position.
> 7. Pull crown to position 3 again.
> 8. With one more needle connected to the '+' of the battery; tap the 'C-' patch 14 times.
> 9. Wait 5 seconds.
> 10. Push crown into position 0.
> 11. Release crown and let it settle into position 1.
> 12. The date ring turns. The second arm ticks.
> 13. Pull crown to position 3.
> 14. Remove needles.
> 15. Insert battery.
> 16. Close watch.
> 17. Push crown to position 0.
> 18. Release crown. It will settle in position 1.
> 19. The date ring turns. The second arm ticks.
> 20. Adjust time.
> 21. Check rate.
> 
> I don't really know what happens when the date ring turns. I am too slow with turning the cradle over.
> 
> Thanks guys!


Great stuff, Hans! Sorry, I tried to be funny too in the erlier post about the _very little progress..._ ;-) 
Anyhow, I think I know the solution, thanks to your very detailed post about your procedure. 
It seems to me that steps 9 and 10 are in the wrong order. According to the service manual:
"After correcting the rate push the crown back to position 1 (neutral).
Wait 5 seconds before disconnecting the external power supply."

Also, try to push the crown back to position 1 instead of all the way to position 0. Even if it goes all the way back to position 0, it should be immediately released so it stays on position 1. 
The last paragraph is just me being picky as probably you have done it the same way so I just want it to be confirmed.
The important part is the quote from the service manual!

Good luck and let us know, please!


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> ...
> 1. Put watch in cradle. It locks it into place.
> 2. Open back.
> 3. Put crown in position 3.
> 4. Remove battery.
> 4. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals. As in diagram on page 19. The cradle holds these needles into place. I still have two hands available.
> 5. Connect the battery (that came out) to wires that are soldered to these needles.
> 6. Confirm that the watch runs on the battery via the needles by pushing the crown into position 0. Once released, it flips back to position 1, the date ring turns, then ticks normally. It will not run until pushed into the 0 position.
> 7. Pull crown to position 3 again...


One more thing, Hans: I've checked the service manual because I felt that your procedure is somewhat different than mine even from the very start. It might not be a real issue but I'd like to make a note that the service manual indicates that *during battery replacement the crown should be in position 1* (see page 13 or 16 - depending which pdf file you read). In your procedure the crown is in position 3 when you take the battery out and it is still there when you connect the external power supply (see your procedure from step 3 to step 6). Try to do it according to the service manual as it might make a difference.


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## Bruce Reding

Good diagnostics work so far, gentlemen. I hope it works out. (If it does, I'll add this thread to the sticky that discusses this adjustment.)


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> ...
> 9. Wait 5 seconds.
> 10. Push crown into position 0.
> 11. Release crown and let it settle into position 1.
> 12. The date ring turns. The second arm ticks.
> 13. Pull crown to position 3.
> 14. Remove needles.
> 15. Insert battery.
> 16. Close watch...


I'm back again : 
- change order of steps 9 and 10 (as noted in my earlier post)
- leave step 13 out completely(!!!)

*Your procedure should be like this:*
*1. Remove the battery (leave the crown at position 1 - neutral).*
*2. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals. As in diagram on page 19.*
*3. Connect the 3V external power supply to the wires that are soldered to these needles.*
*4. Pull crown to position 3.*
*5. With one more needle connected to the '+' of the external power supply; tap the 'C-' patch 14 times.*
*6. Push the crown into position 1.*
*7. Wait 5 seconds.*
*8. Disconnect power (remove needles).*
*9. Insert battery and close the watch.*
*10. Push crown to position 0 to let the seconds hand run.*
*11. Set time as you would normally do.*


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## Hans Moleman

Agreed!
Thank you for your tenacity about this.

To make sure that these needles are providing the external power correctly, I will measure some voltages on the watch. 

Can't wait to try again!
But first I'll have to wait a few more days to make sure I still have the same rate. 

I admire you for your patience with your watch George. It must have taken ages before you knew the corrections worked.

Thank you!


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> Agreed!
> Thank you for your tenacity about this.
> 
> To make sure that these needles are providing the external power correctly, I will measure some voltages on the watch.
> 
> Can't wait to try again!
> But first I'll have to wait a few more days to make sure I still have the same rate.
> 
> I admire you for your patience with your watch George. It must have taken ages before you knew the corrections worked.
> 
> Thank you!


You're welcome, Hans.
As I mentioned earlier we have problems because the whole procedure gets a bit complicated due to the need for an external power supply. Otherwise the calibration procedure is really simple.
My watch was already very accurate: around -4 seconds per year and it needed just a small correction (one impulse) so it took longer to realise that the rate correction went all right. In your case, you should be able to see the result within days.


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## Hans Moleman

I am an utter moron. It's official.
The correction needle was connected to the minus of the battery. It should have been the plus.

With all my attention focussed on these power providing needles the obvious escaped me. 

My apologies for waisting everybody's time.

The good news is that my next effort will likely have a lot more chances of succeeding. Phew!

I have corrected the rate again, and I look forward to the results. 

Sorry about that George!


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## Eeeb

It was not a waste of time! I got explicit instructions which did not exist before :-! ... every cloud has a silver lining :-d

Actually, it prompted me to get my Perpetual VHP opened up for adjusting... unfortunately I really need 3 hands and have only 2... I'll have to wait until I can get someone to help.

One advantage of my new DC power supply is I'll be able to post the current draw of the movement if it is enough to register.


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> I am an utter moron. It's official.
> The correction needle was connected to the minus of the battery. It should have been the plus.
> 
> With all my attention focussed on these power providing needles the obvious escaped me.
> 
> My apologies for waisting everybody's time.
> 
> The good news is that my next effort will likely have a lot more chances of succeeding. Phew!
> 
> I have corrected the rate again, and I look forward to the results.
> 
> Sorry about that George!


Hans, that is dangerous! You could have killed the electronics of your watch. Lucky you didn't.
However, I agree with Jim: We did not waste time, we learned a lot by going through all the bits and pieces that can make a difference during the calibration procedure. I still believe that your procedure included unnecessary extra steps that can influence the final outcome. Also there were steps in the wrong order and the crown was in the wrong position when you disconnected and reconnected the power. Last but not least your last post shows the importance of paying attention to every details.


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## ppaulusz

Eeeb said:


> It was not a waste of time! I got explicit instructions which did not exist before :-! ... every cloud has a silver lining :-d
> 
> Actually, it prompted me to get my Perpetual VHP opened up for adjusting... unfortunately I really need 3 hands and have only 2... I'll have to wait until I can get someone to help...


You are right, Jim, it's a "three-handed" business.
My 11 steps instruction is based on the service manual but includes extra info for us, laymen. Good luck!


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## mspil

I think the step-by-step instructions listed here are fantastic. Would it be possible for someone knowledgeable to do the same for the non-perpetual VHP conquest. I would find this invaluable, and I am sure there are others who would benefit as well. Thanks in advance!


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## ppaulusz

mspil said:


> I think the step-by-step instructions listed here are fantastic. Would it be possible for someone knowledgeable to do the same for the non-perpetual VHP conquest. I would find this invaluable, and I am sure there are others who would benefit as well. Thanks in advance!


*6-steps instruction guide for calibration of the non-perpetual VHP:*

*1. Open your watch.*
*2. Pull the crown to position 3.*
*3. For ETA 255.563: Connect a wire (or needle on the wire) to the '+' of the battery; tap the 'C-' or 'C+' terminal X times then wait 5 seconds then disconnect wire/needle.*
*3. For ETA 255.561 and ETA 255.472: Tap (with a toothpick) the 'C-' or 'C+' terminal X times.*
*4. Push the crown into position 1.*
*5. Close the watch.*
*6. Set the time as you would normally do.*


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## dwjquest

ppaulusz said:


> *7-steps instruction guide for calibration of the non-perpetual VHP:*
> 
> *1. Open your watch.*
> *2. Pull the crown to position 3.*
> *3. Connect a wire (or needle on the wire) to the '+' of the battery; tap the 'C-' or 'C+' terminal X times.*
> *4. Disconnect wire/needle.*
> *5. Push the crown into position 1.*
> *6. Close the watch.*
> *7. Set the time as you would normally do.*


The only change I would make is to wait 5 seconds between step 4 and 5. The wait of 5 seconds may not be needed as it is not mentioned in some of the other manuals.

The wait period is probably not needed since the battery is installed and the update will not be affected by the removal of adjustment wires (needles).

What do you think, George?


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## ppaulusz

dwjquest said:


> The only change I would make is to wait 5 seconds between step 4 and 5. The wait of 5 seconds may not be needed as it is not mentioned in some of the other manuals.
> 
> The wait period is probably not needed since the battery is installed and the update will not be affected by the removal of adjustment wires (needles).
> 
> What do you think, George?


You have just answered your own question, David. 
You are correct: The wait of 5 seconds is not needed since the battery is not removed during the whole operation. 
It can be said after step 5 (it's rather step 5 than 4 as the actual calibration is completed after the crown is pushed back to position 1.) that: _wait for at least 5 seconds if you are about to remove the battery_ - but why on earth would anyone decide to remove the battery in a situation like that? 
In case of a need for battery change, it should be carried out before the calibration procedure.


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## Hans Moleman

Maybe we're not there as yet.

My watch was 0.03 second slow after I adjusted the rate. 
I was a bit slow pushing in the crown! :-d
And after 17 hours of operation, it is 0.06 second fast. 

That would equate to 1 second gain every 6 days. Which means no change in the rate.

Measured by video with a NTP calibrated computer clock as reference.

It's a bit premature, to draw conclusions on that so I'll make some more measurements the next few days.


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> Maybe we're not there as yet.
> 
> My watch was 0.03 second slow after I adjusted the rate.
> I was a bit slow pushing in the crown! :-d
> And after 17 hours of operation, it is 0.06 second fast.
> 
> That would equate to 1 second gain every 6 days. Which means no change in the rate.
> 
> Measured by video with a NTP calibrated computer clock as reference.
> 
> It's a bit premature, to draw conclusions on that so I'll make some more measurements the next few days.


Indeed, it is a bit premature to draw conclusion. 
Which guide did you follow: 21-steps (see post #18) or 11-steps (see post #22 ) or something else?


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## Hans Moleman

These were the steps I used last:

1. Remove the battery (leave the crown at position 1 - neutral).
2. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals. As in diagram on page 19.
3. Connect the 3V external power supply to the wires that are soldered to these needles.
4. Pull crown to position 3.
5. With one more needle connected to the '+' of the external power supply; tap the 'C-' patch 14 times.
6. Push the crown into position 1.
7. Wait 5 seconds.
8. Disconnect power (remove needles).
9. Insert battery and close the watch.
10. Push crown to position 0 to let the seconds hand run.
11. Set time as you would normally do.
Cheers
Hans


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## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> These were the steps I used last:
> 
> 1. Remove the battery (leave the crown at position 1 - neutral).
> 2. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals. As in diagram on page 19.
> 3. Connect the 3V external power supply to the wires that are soldered to these needles.
> 4. Pull crown to position 3.
> 5. With one more needle connected to the '+' of the external power supply; tap the 'C-' patch 14 times.
> 6. Push the crown into position 1.
> 7. Wait 5 seconds.
> 8. Disconnect power (remove needles).
> 9. Insert battery and close the watch.
> 10. Push crown to position 0 to let the seconds hand run.
> 11. Set time as you would normally do.
> Cheers
> Hans


OK, I believe these are the right steps according to the manual and _common sense_. By _common sense_ I meant to indicate that I compared the service manual's guide for calibration of the similar but 1.55V powered ETA 252.511 movement (it does not need external power supply for the calibration) to the service manual's guide for our ETA 252.611 and did not find anything that would contradict the 11-steps guide. On the other hand the comparison actually confirmed for me that the 11-steps guide is the right one. 
Well, that is the theory which should be supported by experimental evidence and that is where we have problem.
In the case of my watch I only needed just one impulse given to the "C+" terminal. I have reported that it was a success. I came to this conclusion by checking the watch (3-4 weeks after the rate adjustment) against the atomic-time reference on the net (as I usually do). That time I did not take much note of the fact that in Central Europe we experienced extremely high (close to 40°C) temperature for weeks. I hardly wear the watch so it's been subjected to temperature changes without "body-thermocompensation" or air-conditioning. Its built-in thermocompensation should take care of most but the really extreme temprature changes. Having said that, now I wish I had to correct more than just that one impulse because it would have been easier to measure any rate change with greater adjutment. If nobody else can repeat my success(?) (calibrating the ETA 252.611 movement) in the next couple of weeks then I will make a new attempt to adjust the rate on my Longines: this time I would go for + or - 10 impulses (equals to around + or - 40 seconds per year) just to see that it really works. In the meantime, I pray that someone will save me from the "forced" calibration procedure.


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## Bruce Reding

ppaulusz said:


> OK, I believe these are the right steps according to the manual and _common sense_. By _common sense_ I meant to indicate that I compared the service manual's guide for calibration of the similar but 1.55V powered ETA 252.511 movement (it does not need external power supply for the calibration) to the service manual's guide for our ETA 252.611 and did not find anything that would contradict the 11-steps guide. On the other hand the comparison actually confirmed for me that the 11-steps guide is the right one.
> Well, that is the theory which should be supported by experimental evidence and that is where we have problem.
> In the case of my watch I only needed just one impulse given to the "C+" terminal. I have reported that it was a success. I came to this conclusion by checking the watch (3-4 weeks after the rate adjustment) against the atomic-time reference on the net (as I usually do). That time I did not take much note of the fact that in Central Europe we experienced extremely high (close to 40°C) temperature for weeks. I hardly wear the watch so it's been subjected to temperature changes without "body-thermocompensation" or air-conditioning. Its built-in thermocompensation should take care of most but the really extreme temprature changes. Having said that, now I wish I had to correct more than just that one impulse because it would have been easier to measure any rate change with greater adjutment. If nobody else can repeat my success(?) (calibrating the ETA 252.611 movement) in the next couple of weeks then I will make a new attempt to adjust the rate on my Longines: this time I would go for + or - 10 impulses (equals to around + or - 40 seconds per year) just to see that it really works. In the meantime, I pray that someone will save me from the "forced" calibration procedure.


Excellent example of clear thinking, George. The forced calibration, while painful, would be a clear confirmation if necessary. Do David's positive results support the validity of your procedure?


----------



## Hans Moleman

Don't worry George! 
I enjoy doing it.
You have been a source of inspiration for me.

There is one more step that I would like to slip in somewhere. And I believe it makes a lot of sense.
It is step 3B as outlined on page 16. "Press the crown briefly; the watch will begin to work ..."

I suspect that connecting an external power supply, and for that matter inserting a new battery will not get this watch going. It needs this quick push on the crown for the watch to get to work.

So the corrections I made in my last effort were made to a watch that is asleep. Or at least not switched on.

And another guess: The quick push on the crown to get the watch going, was meant so that the watch could be stored without draining the battery. To store it until it was time to be sold.

In my last effort I made sure that the watch was connected to the external power supply by measuring the voltage as in Fig 1. on page 15. I would have liked to just switch it on, by pressing the crown briefly and then pulling the crown to position 3, and start the corrections.

What do you think? Do you remember anything about quickly pressing the crown to get the watch going while on external power?

Cheers
Hans


----------



## ppaulusz

Bruce Reding said:


> Excellent example of clear thinking, George. The forced calibration, while painful, would be a clear confirmation if necessary. Do David's positive results support the validity of your procedure?


David is yet to calibrate a watch that needs external power supply during the procedure. He had great results with his other watches. We know that the external power supply makes the procedure much more complicated (for us laypersons). So I look forward to David's attempt to calibrate his Longines (ETA 252.611).


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> ... There is one more step that I would like to slip in somewhere. And I believe it makes a lot of sense.
> It is step 3B as outlined on page 16. "Press the crown briefly; the watch will begin to work ..."
> 
> I suspect that connecting an external power supply, and for that matter inserting a new battery will not get this watch going. It needs this quick push on the crown for the watch to get to work.
> 
> So the corrections I made in my last effort were made to a watch that is asleep. Or at least not switched on.
> 
> And another guess: The quick push on the crown to get the watch going, was meant so that the watch could be stored without draining the battery. To store it until it was time to be sold.
> 
> In my last effort I made sure that the watch was connected to the external power supply by measuring the voltage as in Fig 1. on page 15. I would have liked to just switch it on, by pressing the crown briefly and then pulling the crown to position 3, and start the corrections.
> 
> What do you think? Do you remember anything about quickly pressing the crown to get the watch going while on external power?
> 
> Cheers
> Hans


Hans, your theory about step 3B makes sense. It might be the missing link. Yes, it can happen that the watch has an "on switch" (crown position 0) for safety reason and for avoiding draining of the battery in the shop (as you mentioned).

Honestly, I can't recall pushing the crown into 0 position before pulling it to position 3 during the calibration procedure. Not on purpose for sure. Accidently? It's a long shot... I doubt.

However, one thing is almost certain to me: we run out of options or logical (my logic) alternatives. It's either my original 11-steps procedure or it's modified (by you) version with the added step 3B. The more I think about it, the more I like your thought about the extra step.|> I'd say, give it a go!
Good luck (you will need it)!


----------



## ppaulusz

ppaulusz said:


> Hans, your theory about step 3B makes sense. It might be the missing link. Yes, it can happen that the watch has an "on switch" (crown position 0) for safety reason and for avoiding draining of the battery in the shop (as you mentioned)...


Hans, I just had a chat with my Brother who knows a great deal more about electronics than me. He helped me with the calibration or rather I helped him as he is the handyman in the family. The bottom line is: in his opinion, *you are right, that extra step is needed!!!* He even added that he should have known better and should have realised the importance of the 0 position of the crown straight away. 
Take it as a compliment, Hans!:-!
So the 11-steps guide becomes the *12-steps guide:*
*1. Remove the battery (leave the crown at position 1 - neutral).*
*2. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals. (See in diagram on page 19.)*
*3. Connect the 3V external power supply to the wires that are soldered to these needles.*
*4. Push the crown to position 0 then release it back to position 1* -* that action is needed to switch the watch on* - *then* *wait for the date ring to complete its turn.*
*5. Pull the crown to position 3.*
*6. With one more needle connected to the '+' of the external power supply; tap the 'C-' or 'C+'terminal X times. (The direction and the number of pulses depend on the current rate of the watch. See the manual for more info.)*
*7. Push the crown into position 1.*
*8. Wait 5 seconds.*
*9. Disconnect power (remove the needles).*
*10. Insert the battery and close the watch.*
*11. Push the crown to position 0 to switch the watch on. (The seconds-hand will start to run.)*
*12. Set time as you would normally do.*

Well, looks like our group effort finally got this _thing_ right.

I look forward to your result, Hans, using the latest formula.

Our friend, David, might want to use the latest guide too for his attempt to calibrate his Longines. I'm sure he too will post his findings for this forum.


----------



## Bruce Reding

Once we get confirmation that this works, this is definitely going in one of the stickies! (Probably references makes sense.)


----------



## mspil

ppaulusz said:


> *7-steps instruction guide for calibration of the non-perpetual VHP:*
> 
> *1. Open your watch.*
> *2. Pull the crown to position 3.*
> *3. Connect a wire (or needle on the wire) to the '+' of the battery; tap the 'C-' or 'C+' terminal X times.*
> *4. Disconnect wire/needle.*
> *5. Push the crown into position 1.*
> *6. Close the watch.*
> *7. Set the time as you would normally do.*


Thank you for this summary. I will use it as soon as I re-establish the running rate of my watch. (I have been neglecting it since I purchased The Citizen). One small point of clarification; I assume you regard the crown as being in position 1 when it is pressed fully home into the body, as opposed to the perpetual models which apparently have a further spring-loaded crown position referred to as position 0?


----------



## ppaulusz

mspil said:


> Thank you for this summary. I will use it as soon as I re-establish the running rate of my watch. (I have been neglecting it since I purchased The Citizen). One small point of clarification; I assume you regard the crown as being in position 1 when it is pressed fully home into the body, as opposed to the perpetual models which apparently have a further spring-loaded crown position referred to as position 0?


You are welcome, mspil!
That is right: position 1 is the normal position of the crown ("pressed fully home").


----------



## Eeeb

Well, I just delivered 5 retard pulses to my Perpetual VHP... but, I confess, in the confusion of making sure the wife didn't short the leads I am not sure if I pushed to position 0. Oh well, we'll all blunder through this somehow! :-d

I'm looking forward to getting my 'new' VHP dual xtal back from the jeweler (he is trying to get new links for the bracelet from Longines... I got it from Asia and it is missing a number of links.) That watch should be easier as it doesn't need battery removal.

One point for the other Perpetual owners, did you have a plastic insulator under the battery? 

If so, I'll have to fabricate one for the eTime 1.01 (my build from scratch VHP... yes, I'm still working on it... I'll post all the problems when it is done or given up on!). The bare Longines movement I got didn't have an insulator. (At least I'm finding this out before assembly!)


----------



## ppaulusz

Eeeb said:


> Well, I just delivered 5 retard pulses to my Perpetual VHP... but, I confess, in the confusion of making sure the wife didn't short the leads I am not sure if I pushed to position 0. Oh well, we'll all blunder through this somehow! :-d
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting my 'new' VHP dual xtal back from the jeweler (he is trying to get new links for the bracelet from Longines... I got it from Asia and it is missing a number of links.) That watch should be easier as it doesn't need battery removal.
> 
> One point for the other Perpetual owners, did you have a plastic insulator under the battery?
> 
> If so, I'll have to fabricate one for the eTime 1.01 (my build from scratch VHP... yes, I'm still working on it... I'll post all the problems when it is done or given up on!). The bare Longines movement I got didn't have an insulator. (At least I'm finding this out before assembly!)


Yes, Jim, my Longines has a plastic insulator under that large lithium battery.
I wonder if your calibration attempt was a success. The jinx is there for anyone who tries to calibrate that beast...:-d


----------



## Hans Moleman

I've had another go at the correction. This time with the 'on switch'. Good name that!

Got caught out with one minor thing: Pushing this 'on switch' makes the date ring spin one complete turn. This seems to be quite a drain on the battery.
After the correction I put the battery back in and pushed this 'on switch' again. The date ring advanced only one number, then stopped. 
A fresh battery made the date ring do its proper trick. The battery was 8 years old anyway; it did not seem to have the strength left for moving dates along. 
The second arm was still moving every second with that old battery.

I'll keep an eye on the rate.
There will be more adjustments to come. I want it perfect.
Psychiatrists probably have a name for that.


----------



## Bruce Reding

Hans Moleman said:


> There will be more adjustments to come. I want it perfect.
> Psychiatrists probably have a name for that.


Yes -- two that I'm aware of:

1. heqphoria -- a state of kharmic bliss one enters when one's watch attains 1 second per year, and

2. heqphilia -- we won't go there. :-d


----------



## Bruce Reding

Oh, and by the way, as long as we're on the topic of proper HEQ terminology ...



Hans Moleman said:


> Fellow watch nerds!


We HEQers much prefer the term "we-who-think-detailed-descriptions-of-our-watch-accuracy-tests-make-ideal-cocktail-party-topics". :-d


----------



## ronalddheld

That would make for how many of us throughout the world?


----------



## Hans Moleman

:-!
One step closer to heqphoria!
My watch has stopped ignoring me.

It looks like I have over-corrected it, but at least it proves it responds to the correction.

Now I'll have to wait a few weeks to get some good numbers.

Thanks guys!


----------



## Bruce Reding

Hans Moleman said:


> :-!
> One step closer to heqphoria!
> My watch has stopped ignoring me.
> 
> It looks like I have over-corrected it, but at least it proves it responds to the correction.
> 
> Now I'll have to wait a few weeks to get some good numbers.
> 
> Thanks guys!


Cool Hans! I look forward to the report.


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> :-!
> One step closer to heqphoria!
> My watch has stopped ignoring me.
> 
> It looks like I have over-corrected it, but at least it proves it responds to the correction.
> 
> Now I'll have to wait a few weeks to get some good numbers.
> 
> Thanks guys!


Good on you, Hans!:-!
Now, it's official: we have the right formula!:thanks


----------



## ppaulusz

Bruce Reding said:


> Once we get confirmation that this works, this is definitely going in one of the stickies! (Probably references makes sense.)


Bruce, Hans just confirmed that the 12-steps guide is the right one for the ETA 252.611 (perpetual calendar with 3V lithium battery). For the rest of the Thermolines (including the perpetual calendar with normal 1.55V battery) and the earlier dual-oscillator ETA movements, the 7-steps guide is the right formula.
For the stickies you will find the 7-steps guide in post #30 and the 12-steps guide is listed in post #41 in this thread.
Thanks. 
It was real teamwork, thanks to everyone who got involved! We've done it!:-!


----------



## Bruce Reding

OUTSTANDING!!! |>|>|>

Posted in the Reference sticky.


----------



## Hans Moleman

Looks like this story has a wee tail.

A few observations over two days all points to the fact that I've overshot my mark.
Instead of applying 14 pulses to go slower I must have administered 7 too many.
The watch went from 1 second gain per week to 0.5 second loss per week.
That is still an improvement but hardly an accurate adjustment.

Did I lose count? 
Hardly.

It must have been the way I applied these 'impulses'.
I applied them as one would push a button. Holding it down a second or so.
That seems to be too long and is interpreted as several impulses.

Next time I'll try a quick tap method.

Cheers
Hans.


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> Looks like this story has a wee tail.
> 
> A few observations over two days all points to the fact that I've overshot my mark.
> Instead of applying 14 pulses to go slower I must have administered 7 too many.
> The watch went from 1 second gain per week to 0.5 second loss per week.
> That is still an improvement but hardly an accurate adjustment.
> 
> Did I lose count?
> Hardly.
> 
> It must have been the way I applied these 'impulses'.
> I applied them as one would push a button. Holding it down a second or so.
> That seems to be too long and is interpreted as several impulses.
> 
> Next time I'll try a quick tap method.
> 
> Cheers
> Hans.


It is an interesting and very important observation, Hans. 
You must be correct: the quick tap method is the way to go!|>


----------



## Eeeb

Hans Moleman said:


> Looks like this story has a wee tail.
> 
> A few observations over two days all points to the fact that I've overshot my mark.
> Instead of applying 14 pulses to go slower I must have administered 7 too many.
> The watch went from 1 second gain per week to 0.5 second loss per week.
> That is still an improvement but hardly an accurate adjustment.
> 
> Did I lose count?
> Hardly.
> 
> It must have been the way I applied these 'impulses'.
> I applied them as one would push a button. Holding it down a second or so.
> That seems to be too long and is interpreted as several impulses.
> 
> Next time I'll try a quick tap method.
> 
> Cheers
> Hans.


Don't feel bad... It looks like I did exactly the same thing. I'm running slow now. We'll get this right eventually :-d:-d


----------



## Hans Moleman

I am impressed you've managed to make a correction with the borrowed hands!
There doesn't seem to be enough space, even for my own two hands.

Thanks for catching a few of those arrows!


----------



## ppaulusz

Eeeb said:


> Don't feel bad... It looks like I did exactly the same thing. I'm running slow now. We'll get this right eventually :-d:-d


Gentlemen, I had a second thought about the "duration of the impulse" dilemma. Now, I am not that certain that it does matter at all. Isn't the impulse an "open or close" situation when the duration of the action does not really matter only the action itself? I am very much a layperson in these matters so I would welcome feedbacks from the experts.


----------



## Hans Moleman

I really don't know whats going on here. I was diligently counting to 14 and seem to have ended up with 21. 
The French instructions don't mention impulses. They talk about one or more 'contacts'. Only the German and English talk about 'impulses'. 

Wasn't your watch over-corrected at one time in the shop?

Are we having the 0.33 seconds wrong?


----------



## Hans Moleman

If I do my sums again, with only 2 days worth of operation to go by, it would make a lot more sense if 1 impulse equated to a 0.5 second correction.


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> ...Wasn't your watch over-corrected at one time in the shop?
> 
> Are we having the 0.33 seconds wrong?


Yes, it was "overcorrected" in the service centre.

The 0.33 second/month step must be right!

I think the source of our problem is the incorrect measurements of the rate of the movement before and /or after calibration. We might be guilty of rushing things by not giving enough time for proper check of the rate of the movement. Without properly calibrated professional tools we only can rely on our observations. I'd say we should give the movement(s) at least 1 month (2-3 months would be even better) before we attempt to establish its rate. Even if it was obvious within days that the movement was out of specification we would only know the current rate with reliable accuracy on the long term. Any other approach is a bit like "hit and miss". Once in a while, we can be lucky and hit "bullseye" even with a premature attempt but that would be the exemption to the rule, in my opinion.


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> If I do my sums again, with only 2 days worth of operation to go by, it would make a lot more sense if 1 impulse equated to a 0.5 second correction.


The print is clearly visible on the surface of the ETA 252.611 movement: 
*1 imp. = 0,33 s/month* 
The service manual claims the same number for the adjustment step, so that must be the right figure.


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> I am impressed you've managed to make a correction with the borrowed hands!
> There doesn't seem to be enough space, even for my own two hands...


Which brings us to an other explanation (specially in an akward position like that) for the "overcalibration": the trembling hands effects...


----------



## Eeeb

My rate was established over an 80 day period... that said, who knows? 

I'm just glad I don't have to send it back somewhere to try again! :-d


----------



## Hans Moleman

Its very early to draw conclusions, I agree.

What I know so far is that my watch used to gain a second every 6.5 days. And that is measured over a few months.

It now loses seconds. Not too sure how many exactly, but its getting closer.
:-!

I never expected this to be the full and final adjustment. I am happy enough to know that I can adjust it!
We'll get there eventually. I won't tighten the back as yet.

Cheers
Hans


----------



## Eeeb

As long as the attempts converge, I too will be quite happy!


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> ...I never expected this to be the full and final adjustment. I am happy enough to know that I can adjust it!
> We'll get there eventually...


I fully agree!:-!


----------



## Hans Moleman

Does your attempt converge Eeeb?
For what I can see I went from +4.6 to -3.5 per month.

That's 10 corrections too many out of the 24. I really should cut down on the coffee!
I'll have another go after a week. 
If I can't get the applied corrections accurate, then there's no point in getting the numbers of required corrections accurate either. I might do a few for practice sake.


----------



## Eeeb

Even when "inaccurate", the VHP is way too accurate to get an good timing in several days :-d ... I'll have to wait a several weeks to get a good adjustment count.


----------



## ppaulusz

Eeeb said:


> Even when "inaccurate", the VHP is way too accurate to get an good timing in several days :-d ... I'll have to wait a several weeks to get a good adjustment count.


It's true!:-d


----------



## Hans Moleman

I am now getting good consistent measurements with recording a video of my watch together with a reference clock.


----------



## Hans Moleman

Well, I did some more corrections and I can confirm 'tapping' on the correction patches is the way to go. As indeed is outlined in post 41 by Ppaulusz.

Hold the correction wire too long on the patch, and you run the risk of registering more than one correction impulse. That is for me the only explanation as to why I over-corrected in my first attempt.

I tapped the 'faster' patch 10 times, and the watch is now within the 0.8 sec per month spec. It is going so well, that my video recordings give no early indication of the yearly rate anymore. Apart from that it's a lot better.

I would like to see one more step after step 4. 'Wait for the date ring to complete its turn.'

heqphoria here I come!
b-)


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> Well, I did some more corrections and I can confirm 'tapping' on the correction patches is the way to go. As indeed is outlined in post 41 by Ppaulusz.
> 
> Hold the correction wire too long on the patch, and you run the risk of registering more than one correction impulse. That is for me the only explanation as to why I over-corrected in my first attempt.
> 
> I tapped the 'faster' patch 10 times, and the watch is now within the 0.8 sec per month spec. It is going so well, that my video recordings give no early indication of the yearly rate anymore. Apart from that it's a lot better.
> 
> I would like to see one more step after step 4. 'Wait for the date ring to complete its turn.'...


Great progress, Hans!:-!
I will include that extra info at the end of step 4 in post #41 as an update. Thanks for pointing it out!


----------



## Hans Moleman

Getting closer...
I figured it could do with another single correction.

After three weeks of measurements, and realizing that I was dealing with some serious measurement noise here, Mr S.Tochastic advised me that the rate was 0.338 seconds per month slow.
One correction impulse of 0.33 sec/month would fit nicely here.

Here are the measurements. 
X-axis is in hours after the regulation. Y-axis is in seconds fast/slow.


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> Getting closer...
> I figured it could do with another single correction.
> 
> After three weeks of measurements, and realizing that I was dealing with some serious measurement noise here, Mr S.Tochastic advised me that the rate was 0.338 seconds per month slow.
> One correction impulse of 0.33 sec/month would fit nicely here...


You are almost there, Hans!|>


----------



## Bruce Reding

Excellent work, Hans! :-! You may achieve the elusive <1 sec/year mark after your next iteration. 

This way of collecting and displaying the data may make summer to winter temperature dependencies clear, too, if they exist.


----------



## Hans Moleman

It's just that I can't stand waiting for a month or three to get my one second difference.
And then find out that I've made another mistake somewhere and have to to it all over again.

Would be interesting to see what would be a good method for rate calculation without a laser and two atom clocks. Start a thread for that?


----------



## Bruce Reding

Hans Moleman said:


> Would be interesting to see what would be a good method for rate calculation without a laser and two atom clocks. Start a thread for that?


I say go for it.


----------



## ppaulusz

It's a very long thread and one might got confused about the calibration procedures listed in this thread so here are the final (working) versions:

*6-steps instruction guide for calibration of the (non-perpetual) VHP:*

*1. Open your watch.*
*2. Pull the crown to position 3.*
*3. For ETA 255.563: Connect a wire (or needle on the wire) to the '+' of the battery; tap the 'C-' or 'C+' terminal X times then wait 5 seconds then disconnect wire/needle.*
*3. For ETA 255.561 and ETA 255.472: Tap (with a toothpick) the 'C-' or 'C+' terminal X times.*
*4. Push the crown into position 1.*
*5. Close the watch.*
*6. Set the time as you would normally do.*

*12-steps instruction guide for calibration of the VHP Perpetual Calendar:*

*1. Remove the battery (leave the crown at position 1 - neutral).*
*2. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals. (See in diagram on page 19.)*
*3. Connect the 3V external power supply to the wires that are soldered to these needles.*
*4. Push the crown to position 0 then release it back to position 1* -* that action is needed to switch the watch on* - *then* *wait for the date ring to complete its turn.*
*5. Pull the crown to position 3.*
*6. With one more needle connected to the '+' of the external power supply; tap the 'C-' or 'C+'terminal X times. (The direction and the number of pulses depend on the current rate of the watch. See the manual for more info.)*
*7. Push the crown into position 1.*
*8. Wait 5 seconds.*
*9. Disconnect power (remove the needles).*
*10. Insert the battery and close the watch.*
*11. Push the crown to position 0 to switch the watch on. (The seconds-hand will start to run.)*
*12. Set time as you would normally do.*

Please consider this thread closed and do not add new post to this thread so these final (working) calibration methods could easily be identified by the casual observers.
If needed, further discussion about the calibration of the VHP movements can be continued in a new thread by linking this thread at the beginning of the new one.


----------



## webvan

I hate to post a new message here based on the above message, but rather than starting a new thread with my comments/questions on the regulating proces, I think it's best to post here to keep the "history" and ppaulusz definitive steps can hopefully be added by a moderator to the first message with a title in red for easy reference ;-)

So here's a summary of my VHP tuning "odyssey" :

1. Got a Flagship VHP in early February

2. After an unexplained 10 second loss "hiccup", it was showing a +45/50 spy rate, way out of spec

3. Snap on back so a massive pain to remove, a watchmaker put me out of my misery (used a box cutter and tapped on it with a small hammer !) and opened it

4. Thanks to the service manual available here http://tinyurl.com/etavhpservice (type : 252.611 in "Option 2" and First link), the pics and steps here I knew what to expect

5. Set up problems : 
a. Finding a way to power the watch, pull out the crown and tap on the C+ or C- terminal !
b. I used a "scary" contraption made up of a multi-plug power adapter and the needles of my voltmeter! The voltemeter is handy to check that all is being powered as should be, especially the "needle" to tap the C+/C- terminals, here is a picture :










6. Problems with the process : 
a. Pushing in the crown to 0 to wake up the watch is easy, pulling out to position 3 not so much, make sure you hear two clicks
b. Another problem with the crown is pushing back to 1 without going to zero since you have to wait 5 seconds in 1 (bolded in the service manual)
c. The remaining problem I haven't figured out is the tapping part. I read the messages above about that but the area to tap wasn't specified. I assume tapping anywhere on the gold connector is good enough? The service manual seems to point to the "black dot" inside the connector...

7. *Results *: No joy so far, based on some quick testing, I'm at +73spy now (yes I did tap on the C- terminal)...duh! Well I did have to change the original battery as I was getting the EOL (+4 second jumps) signal so maybe I need to figure out the rate with the new battery and adjust it. Not to convinced though...If someone can clarify whether it matters where you tap on the terminals ? Thanks !


----------



## stanislav

same here, already tried 3-4 times with no success, mine is +7,7 s/mo
it's a pain so I am not so willing to try again
the only AD Longines service here refused to play with it, and I will take it to another guy, I hope he knows about adjusting and has the tools
my 8F32 Seiko is -25,5 s/y for 43 days on my wrist


----------



## webvan

Didn't your AD even offer to have it sent back to your local service center ? The watchmaker I was at the other day knew about VHPs but he said they couldn't be adjusted and that he was glad they had been phased out :-(

Do you have any sense as to what steps are causing you difficulties ? Which model do you have ?

I did the process again, this time double-checking everything and tapping a bit longer on the C- and trying to aim at the "black spot"...we shall see.

After starting the watch again, setting it and getting the delay with the "video method" I set it aside and when I picked it up 5 minutes ago I noticed it was doing its EOL (4 second jumps) again...with a battery I put in last night. That CR-2016 battery was still sealed but I've had it for years (about 10) so maybe it's "worn out" too...that or my watch has an issue. Can the EOL signal mean anything else (some type of shorting?) ? If it happens again I'll go out and get a brand new battery to rule out a battery problem.


----------



## vizi

Assistant tool for calibration.....I made this, not pretty, but usable!:-!


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## dwjquest

I just tap on the gold portion. You may have to lengthen you tap duration to get a clear signal to the electronics???? Maybe George can clarify this point.


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## webvan

Thanks, yes I did tap a bit longer during my last try, I'll see what happens, but looking at the posts on the previous pages, it seems Hans had come to the conclusion that a "quick tap" is what the watch wanted.

@vizi - nice setup !


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## Catalin

vizi said:


> Assistant tool for calibration.....I made this, not pretty, but usable!:-!


Looks like a smart setup - I would guess a 20mm shirt button with 2 holes for the wires and one 'cut' for access to the calibration part ... :-!


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## stanislav

vizi said:


> Assistant tool for calibration.....I made this, not pretty, but usable!:-!


contact points are not where the wires in the button are, if we look at the picture in the manual
how do you know where to fix them


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## Hans Moleman

Very clever!
Now why didn't I think of that?
Simple ways to solve a complex problem. I like it!

Tapping on the golden conductive part is the way to register impulses.
A quick tap is enough.
A scrape could register a few impulses.

The lack of feedback is the main problem here:
No clicks, no beeps, no movement.
The effect of on impulse is only seen a few weeks later.

That's why I had to make my own timing machine. So that I could quickly see what I had done.

I easily made more than a dozen attempts to get anywhere near the perfect setting. Then I made a dozen more for no good reason, simply because I did not account for temperature effects.

The watch can stand it. It won't break because of it.

On the other hand: Try to get a perfect result with a condenser screw.
They are way more finicky.


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## vizi

Catalin said:


> Looks like a smart setup - I would guess a 20mm shirt button with 2 holes for the wires and one 'cut' for access to the calibration part ... :-!


 Found,yes it's a 20mm shirt button :-d


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## webvan

Thanks. For some reason my latest attempt seems to have worked better and after 6 hours I'm still spot on using the "video method" that's accurate down to about 0.04 second variations so with my previous 73spy (0.05 in six hours) it would already be off...here's hoping!

Did you ever see the EOL signal other than with a weak battery ?

The point you raise about temperature is interesting since I've observed a variation of about 15spy going from 20c to 30c on my ETA based watches. What temperature did you end up setting it to?


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## Hans Moleman

I stopped calibrating when it was at 2-3 s/yr off while (mostly) wearing.
If I wear it continuously it gains 10 ms per day.
A cold night off the wrist slows it down by 15 ms.
A warm night slows it down by 5-10 ms.

So setting it to a slight gain leaves you some room to take it off now and then.
And leaves you some room to 'cheat'.

I have never seen an EOL signal. But there's still time.


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## vizi

stanislav said:


> contact points are not where the wires in the button are, if we look at the picture in the manual
> how do you know where to fix them


The nominations. Wires= redlus, black:minus


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## webvan

Well like Hans once wrote here, it seems my VHP has stopped ignoring me too, the longer taps must have helped ! After almost 24 hours I'm still in the 0.04 uncertainty area (maybe a tad slow) of the video testing (1/25fps), will have to monitor it several days now ;-)

@Hans - how do you measure milliseconds with your video setup ?


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## Hans Moleman

webvan said:


> @Hans - how do you measure milliseconds with your video setup ?


Well done!
Don't give up.

Quite right. Anything under 40 ms is not visible with the video method.
Video frame analysis is a good way to start.

Now I measure stepper motor pulses.
Down to hundredths of milliseconds now...

My fist attempts are still available in some old threads:
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=163830
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=168460


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## webvan

Thanks, doesn't look like I'm going to be able to replicate that setup ;-)

It seems to be stabilizing at -20spy so I'll need a few more taps but the other way round now. That's at room temperature though so starting this afternoon I'll put it on my router for 48 hours to simulate a "wearing pattern" and see what happens. Based on what I saw with the other ETA HEQs I own, I could be looking at a 15/20 second variation, consistent with the +/- 10 spy rating. I'll probably go for 4 taps as that would normally bring it to -4spy at room temp and 0 with a bit of wearing.


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## vizi

vizi said:


> Assistant tool for calibration.....I made this, not pretty, but usable!:-!


 The final version, mirror the process followed. Thus, the perfect :-!


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## stanislav

After using the button method (thanks vizi, saved me a lot of nerve cells) for adjusting my VHP, it is +0,008 s/3days (2 off 1 on wrist). It will need more time to be conclusive for the success of the adjustment. I used 23 taps to leave it fast instead of 24.


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## webvan

Good to hear but how did you measure 0,007 seconds ?!


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## stanislav

webvan said:


> Good to hear but how did you measure 0,007 seconds ?!


I don't know if it is exact but monday i made 2 video clips and the watch was -0,275 s (mean), today again 5 clips -0,267 s, sorry 0,008 s


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## webvan

Unless you have a super camera the best accuracy you can get with the video method is 1/25=0.04s. Having said that it's good that you're not seeing any drift. When it's that close I generally run a couple of tests to see where the "tick" falls, it could be anywhere in that 0.04s range.


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## stanislav

yes, some times the hand is caught in transit but i note the frame when the hand hits the mark so that it is consistent with the other clips
anyway, the difference is obvious, this time the adjustment seems to have worked


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## Catalin

webvan said:


> Unless you have a super camera the best accuracy you can get with the video method is 1/25=0.04s. Having said that it's good that you're not seeing any drift. When it's that close I generally run a couple of tests to see where the "tick" falls, it could be anywhere in that 0.04s range.


Actually more like 1/30s if the camera and the LCD are not that great, but if the LCD is bright and you have a very strong light on the watch itself you can go to the limit from the LCD, which is 1/60 - the camera still stays at 30 fps but since the exposure time is (much) shorter than 1/30 you tend to get only one LCD frame (or something like 80% of it and 20% of the next/previous).

The other thing is that you can also look after a number of frames and do some average, and with a very careful analysis and some care on internet sync you can sometimes get to around 0.005s accuracy (which I believe can be seen in the first 2-months results on my 8F33 (not my 8F56), where the standard deviation was suggesting an error in that range or better).


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## stanislav

I adjusted my VHP on 15/3/2010 with 23 taps and today it shows +2,3 spy, on-wrist, I guess it works
sad I had to reset my 8F32 for summer time, it was -24 spy from 29/1/2010
I will leave it until next DST change, on and off, and then maybe try pattern cutting (not very sure about that though)


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## webvan

Nice work. Mine is now at +5.1spy when worn 24 hours a day. I'm going to see how it behaves at room temp and see if it needs further adjusting.

By the way, unless you have a clever setup and are relying on holding two needles with one hand and tapping with another one with your other hand, I've found that setting the day to 1 helps as you don't have to wait for the calendar wheel to turn. You can check that the watch got properly powered in the process by looking at the seconds hand before and after.


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## Hans Moleman

Well done both of you!
Some good tricks there.
The shirt button and starting off with a date of one.
Almost makes me want to do it again.
Almost.

|>


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## ronalddheld

Good jobs at having the coordination to do that adjustment.


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## stanislav

the shirt button saved me


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## vizi

stanislav said:


> the shirt button saved me


A beautiful shirt buttons:-d


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## Hans Moleman

Needles, buttons, what's next?
:-d
Transparent buttons would be even better.
If we have to believe the high aging numbers, another calibration is due any minute!


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## webvan

Anyone have an idea how this method could be adapated to the ETA 988.352 of the Breitling Aerospace ? Mine has recently lost the plot with an unexplained +30spy shift...and seems to have settled at +22/+32 (room/worn).


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## webvan

Good news, my Aerospace went back to normal after I changed the battery (tiny screws, not easy!). Still interested in the steps if anyone figured them out.


Hans Moleman said:


> I stopped calibrating when it was at 2-3 s/yr off while (mostly) wearing.
> If I wear it continuously it gains 10 ms per day.
> A cold night off the wrist slows it down by 15 ms.
> A warm night slows it down by 5-10 ms.
> 
> So setting it to a slight gain leaves you some room to take it off now and then.
> And leaves you some room to 'cheat'.


I'm sure I saw another post of yours recently were you gave the time in spy...but can't find it again, even after a good hour of searching! Anyway I was wondering if you'd seen any changes in the drift over time (the so-called "aging") with your elaborate setup? It must be there since many of the TC watches that fall into the hands of the crazy bunch here are often way out of spec.


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## Hans Moleman

webvan said:


> Good news, my Aerospace went back to normal after I changed the battery (tiny screws, not easy!). Still interested in the steps if anyone figured them out.
> 
> I'm sure I saw another post of yours recently were you gave the time in spy...but can't find it again, even after a good hour of searching! Anyway I was wondering if you'd seen any changes in the drift over time (the so-called "aging") with your elaborate setup? It must be there since many of the TC watches that fall into the hands of the crazy bunch here are often way out of spec.


It is measured every day and when its too far ahead I leave it off overnight to slow it down a bit. That way it stays around 10 ms from perfect.
That way I can't keep track of the rate though.

If there was any aging I would only notice that if I mostly needed to leave it off overnight or something like that. Nothing like that has happened so far. The temperature effects are far too large to notice the tiny aging if in fact it did exist.

It really needs a very elaborate temperature setup like dwjquest's one to ensure you measure in the same environment from one year to the next.

As in: one needs to be ridiculously sure that the 22.0 degrees now is the 22.0 degrees you had last year. 
That is quite a challenge to get right. I guess I'd rather let dwjquest do the hard work!


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## webvan

Nice strategy! Maybe you can't keep track of the rate "scientifically" but it does show that there is no significant impact of "aging" plus at the end of the day what matters is the "real life" ;-) Still I wonder how all these TC ETAs got to be so much out of spec in terms of their drift at 50+ spy.


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## Hans Moleman

webvan said:


> Nice strategy! Maybe you can't keep track of the rate "scientifically" but it does show that there is no significant impact of "aging" plus at the end of the day what matters is the "real life" ;-) Still I wonder how all these TC ETAs got to be so much out of spec in terms of their drift at 50+ spy.


The quartz literature all mention aging. But the aging stabilizes to a constant rate after certain period. I guess the movement must compensate for that constant rate.

With these quoted values being so high, its effect should have shown in the watch performance already.

Personally I put the bad initial performance down to the lack of calibration. Looks to me like that step was left out altogether. :think:


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## Catalin

Hans Moleman said:


> The quartz literature all mention aging. But the aging stabilizes to a constant rate after certain period.
> ...


I believe that I have seen very often references that the 32 kHz aging becomes very small after a few years, but certainly on higher frequency high-accuracy OCXO the manufacturers provide very clear aging numbers for like 10+ years!


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## webvan

Not strictly speaking "Longines VHP accuracy" since it's Omega's rating of the Omega 1690, the same TC ETA 252.611 movement as the one used in the Longines VHP (minus the 3v battery so it's much easier to adjust it!) and they're on the conservative it seems with a +/- 055 spd rating, i.e. *+/- 20spy*.










Not very ambitious since testing here shows a variation of about 10spy between room and warm temperatures...but a good way to prevent accuracy fans (who don't know how to adjust it themselves) to ask for any adjustments.

So far we had :
- ETA's technical documents (https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=2&tabid=28 and type 252.611) to go buy and they only recommended the rate be adjusted if the watch drifted more than 0.8 seconds over a month of testing, i.e; 10 spy, the implied rating
- Breitling rating their "Superquartz" at +/-15spm, a bit less conservative (not sure if it's stated in the manual).


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## PeterG_SVK

ppaulusz said:


> ...
> *3. For ETA 255.563: Connect a wire (or needle on the wire) to the '+' of the battery; tap the 'C-' or 'C+' terminal X times then wait 5 seconds then disconnect wire/needle.*
> ...


As an electrician I would recommend to do that in slightly different way: connect a wire (or needle on the wire) to 'C+' or 'C-' terminal; tap to the '+' of the battery. It's easier to hold steady connection on small 'C' terminal while tapping the large '+' battery area and it also doesn't scratch golden PCB pad of the movement ;-).


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## c_malc

My VHP 200m has been on display for a few years. Over the last 12 months it absolutely astonished me by staying on the correct second ! So much so I started wearing it again, and of course it started to run fast (roughly +6spy), so out came the perspex disc and wires. There's zero feedback so not sure my attempted one impulse on C- was good. ...time will tell.


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## c_malc

Longines Conquest Perpetual V.H.P 200m (ETA 252.611) manual pdf. attached.


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## c_malc

c_malc said:


> My VHP 200m has been on display for a few years. Over the last 12 months it absolutely astonished me by staying on the correct second ! So much so I started wearing it again, and of course it started to run fast (roughly +6spy), so out came the perspex disc and wires. There's zero feedback so not sure my attempted one impulse on C- was good. ...time will tell.


I'm in North West UK and would like to find someone reliable for a strip/clean/relube for my VHP. Does anyone have a recommendation. If not in the NW, I'm prepared to post it.


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## ronalddheld

c_malc said:


> I'm in North West UK and would like to find someone reliable for a strip/clean/relube for my VHP. Does anyone have a recommendation. If not in the NW, I'm prepared to post it.


Respond by PM.


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