# ***NEW*** LACO - Limited Edition, 55mm, B-Uhr Replica



## JSal

*Aviator Observation Watch FL 23883 
Available to Order Now, In Stock on 1.02.2013*

*The firm LACO established its legendary reputation in the early forties of the last century 
by manufacturing the aviator observation watch FL 23883. 
This is, of course, a most welcome occasion for us to create another strictly limited edition of our replica.

**A-Type Dial Model # 861829 - 1/50 pcs. B-Type Dial Model # 861830 - 1/50 pcs.
*
*https://shop.laco.de/en/Editions.html

*​*Edition:* *Limited Edition of the aviator observation watch FL 23883. This edition is limited to a total of 100 pieces.

**Movement:* *Swiss movement ETA A07.111 (modified to manual winding with hacking mechanism for the seconds hand), Incablock shock protection

Case:* *Dark sandblasted stainless steel casing with lateral laser engraving FL 23883, solid stainless steel bottom with laser inscription and engraved serial number, waterproof up to 5 ATM, case diameter: 55 mm, height: 20 mm, double-arch sapphire glass.

Face:* *Designed according to the original models A & B, flat black priming with Superluminova C3

Hands: Hour hand, minute hand and central sweeping seconds hand, thermical blued steel hands (Just the hour and minute hand)

Strap: Brown genuine aviator calfskin strap

Box: Lightbrown cardboard (close to the original cardboard from the 40's), every box bears the serial number of the watch.

**
Price: 2,498.00 EUR - - Price: (without 19% VAT) 2,099.15 EUR (Price outside of the European Union)

*Note: The pictures below are just examples and do not accurately represent the current details listed above for the actual watch being offered.
















*


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## Croton_Equator

*Re: ***NEW*** LACO - Limited Edition, 55mm, B-Uhr Replika*

Very nice that it's a manual winder, like the original!


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## rcnich

Just ordered the B-model. Maybe I'll get 2013 limited edition #01?? Will be my second Laco -- Type A 42 mm automatic is on my wrist now. Love it! Since it's so honkin' big, this limited edition may just remain in my safe deposit box for awhile...


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## 480/277

Saw it and was flipping between it and the memmingen


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## watchma

480/277 said:


> Saw it and was flipping between it and the memmingen


Memmingen for the win (got one ;-))


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## Yunsung

Is it me or does the A type not have blued hands?


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## watchma

Yunsung said:


> Is it me or does the A type not have blued hands?


On the single photo so far supplied, yeah they show as black, but the description on both watches say they are blued.. might have been a mockup ?


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## Laco Pforzheim

Hello,

this pictures do not show the original watches! We do not have current pictures yet, because the watches are in production right now.
Both will of course have thermical blued steel hands.

Best regards,
Diana


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## StufflerMike

They *look* like being black but what you will get are blued steel hands.


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## Uwe W.

Blued hand from certain angles can appear to be black; also, as Diana pointed out, both photos did indicate that they were "abbildung ähnlich". In other words, the provided illustrations are _similar_ to what an actual production model will look like.

Are these hands black or blue? Same watch in the same place, but with only a slight change in the angle of view:


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## JSal

Uwe W. said:


> Blued hand from certain angles can appear to be black; also, as Diana pointed out, both photos did indicate that they were "abbildung ähnlich". In other words, the provided illustrations are _similar_ to what an actual production model will look like.


I had the feeling last night when I posted those pics that something like this would happen. I probably could have come up with a closer representation. But I did use the one's that LACO themselves posted on their site as examples for the Editions being offered.


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## Uwe W.

JSal said:


> I probably could have come up with a closer representation.


How? :-s You're not planning on breaking into Laco's production facility at night to take your own photos of the watch are you? :-d



JSal said:


> But I did use the one's that LACO themselves posted on their site as examples for the Editions being offered.


Well, that is the risk of presenting a pre-release model. Laco did include the necessary caveat on their images that they weren't actual photographs, but not everyone will pick up on that. Similarly, not everyone has owned a watch with blued hands and consequently don't realise that they can appear to be black at times. There's nothing to be done about that, especially not since Laco's description of the watch does specify that the hands are heat blued.


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## zukhra

At production of the limited series of watch with the dial "B" was made a mistake with a minute hand.

Such arrow was only on "A" dials series
it seems to me that it is idea profanation)))


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## JSal

As stated before by myself, Uwe, and Diana...

The photo's I used as examples are NOT of the actual watches being sold. They are just to give an idea of the style watch (A-Dial & B-Dial) being made for the Limited Edition. 
These current Replica's Editions are as closest examples to an original produced to date. With maybe the exception of the one that was made in 2000 (I think) that came with a 99% original vintage Durowe movement. But even those were lacking other small asthetic details.


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## picklepossy

I would love to pick one of them up but I have maxed out my budget. Will enjoy my Dortmund and inbound Westerland in 45mm. Both to be on the pilot closed loop strap. Perhaps one day for the 55mm.


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## watchma

Group hug anyone ? 

Laco could have just used a pic from the last LE (the one that was €1598 earlier this year?)

They don't look any different really do they, after all you can't really improve on the original look without changing it, internally yeah they might have a new movement, but externally ?.......


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## picklepossy

Group hug? Or did you perhaps mean Group BUY????


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## zukhra

too expensive price for them
so, any time I will be content with the my Dortmund))


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## JSal

watchma said:


> Group hug anyone ?
> 
> Laco could have just used a pic from the last LE (the one that was €1598 earlier this year?)


I kind of wondered the same thing last night as to why they didn't do that.



watchma said:


> They don't look any different really do they, after all you can't really improve on the original look without changing it, internally yeah they might have a new movement, but externally ?.......


Actually unless the last one was an Automatic, all the changes are external on this one.

The Heat Blued Hands this time versus the painted blue in prior editions.

And this one is actually not even part of the watch... 
Instead of the Wooden Box with Leather Straps and Metal Plate with the watches Serial Number on it...
This time they will be offering a Cardboard Box reminiscent of the boxes that the originals came in.
Below is an example of an Original Vinatge LACO box from 1943 that my personal watch came in.


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## MHe225

BUMMER - there is no way I can pull off a 55 mm watch. This is a fantastic offering for those who can.

And sadly enough, the 1969 is too small for me ..... Ah well, I keep an eye on what's being offered here.

RonB


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## Uwe W.

watchma said:


> Laco could have just used a pic from the last LE (the one that was €1598 earlier this year?) They don't look any different really do they, after all you can't really improve on the original look without changing it, internally yeah they might have a new movement, but externally ?.......





JSal said:


> I kind of wondered the same thing last night as to why they didn't do that.


You actually have it backwards watchma; the upcoming A- and B-Muster 55 mm do look different, but have the same movement as was used in the previous two generations of the big LE. The visual differences are denoted by the use of heat-blued hands instead of varnish/painted hands and the new bead-blasting treated that was introduced for the 2012 collection of regular B-Uhr models. So really, it would have been even more misleading to have used images of the last LE.

And to answer the double-naysayer in this thread who claims they're too expensive for what you get, I suggest he take a look at the number of mass produced watches using ETA movements that cost twice as much. Personally I'd rather drop my hard earned money on a watch that has 49 other brethren spread worldwide than 4,900. To further prove my point, every other LE issue of the 55 mm has sold out; this one will too.


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## logan2z

It's pretty cool to see a new re-issue of the 55mm B-Uhr with the bead-blasted case. It's a really unique finish that is one of my favorite features of the 2012 models, and more closely replicates the finishes on the originals. Because of the sheer size of the LE I'll probably pass on it - the 45mm Westerland and Dortmund are about as big as I can pull off - but those collectors who do buy the LE will own a very unique and historically accurate homage. Kudos to Laco for continuing to bring these watches to market.


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## watchma

Ah right the photo's didn't really show the new grey finish, and I thought the old €1598 LE was already the new finish, that was up on the website when I came to Laco earlier this year for the 1st time..

I wouldn't mind seeing a 45mm with this extended crown, despite it wrecking your wrist, it always looks cool - seen a few <cough> Steinharts with it, well actually got a <cough> steinhart


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## Janne

I wonder if ALL all the numbers and markers are Superluminova coated?
Or as the original, onle every other one.

I think this edition is as good as ( maybe better - the new finish) the previous LE's.

They will fly off the shelve.


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## watchma

Janne said:


> They will fly


Even closer to the original then ?


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## Janne

As the original!


I commend Laco of taking all this work to only produce 2 x 50 units. Most manufacturers seldom make less than 1000 units.

Anybody know in how many units that Zenith Special, the faux Pilits watch is made?

Edit: Got it. 250 units.


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## Uwe W.

zukhra said:


> At production of the limited series of watch with the dial "B" was made a mistake with a minute hand. Such arrow was only on "A" dials series
> it seems to me that it is idea profanation)))


It appears that I overlooked this comment...

I believe that during the transition from A- to B-Muster designs there were a number of 'hybrid' models produced, so your hard rules on what is right or wrong isn't correct. For example, here's a Laco with a B-Muster dial that uses an A-Muster hand set (see below). Who knows why this happened. It could have been that they were using up a stocked supply of hands, or maybe the final hand design for the B-Muster came at a later day; it's even possible I suppose that someone at the factory was grabbing parts from the wrong bin.

My point is that documented evidence exists showing many design variances of the Laco B-Uhr. Even the B-Muster dial itself was changed at some point.

The upcoming 2013 Laco B-Uhr 55 mm LE models aren't wrong from an historical standpoint as they do capture a moment in time from the production variances of the originals.








Photo: Knirim


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## JSal

Here is another unusual one with the same hands and the red tips, that Mike posted a couple of years back.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f367/wwii-laco-b-uhr-red-tipped-hour-hand-458787.html


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## JSal

*I'm unable to edit the original post or I would have put these pictures there... But here are the official pictures from LACO recently added to their website.

**A-Type - #08 of 50



























B-Type #50 of 50



























*


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## Janne

JSal said:


> Here is another unusual one with the same hands and the red tips, that Mike posted a couple of years back.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f367/wwii-laco-b-uhr-red-tipped-hour-hand-458787.html


I would say it was modded much later. Plus the Minute hand is not original to that watch.


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## rcnich

I received my 55mm B-uhr B-type Christmas Eve! What a nice surprise, as I expected it to ship sometime in early 2013. As everyone says, it's a massive timepiece in size and weight.

Upon removing the watch from the foam cushioned box, I noticed some marks on the left side of the case. These marks appear in my 3rd photo as dark smudges -- but they are actually highly reflective areas, as if the matte finish had been rubbed off. I am somewhat disappointed in the finish. Should I be? I hate the thought of returning the watch for a warranty claim. But I am not quite ready to accept it as watch "character".

After close inspection of the marks, I really don't think they were caused by the watch box foam, as it is very, very soft, like suede leather. So I think perhaps these marks were missed by quality control as the watch was released for shipping?

Have others who have purchased smaller LACO B-uhrs having the dark matte finish also experienced this? Just curious. Is this a big deal, or not?




















In all other respects, the watch is quite impressive, and the features are immaculate.

Thanks.


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## Uwe W.

Congratulations - it looks incredible! However, you're right about those smudges and I agree that you shouldn't accept them as "character", which is something you add to the watch, not the manufacturer. My advice would be to contact Laco after the holidays, send along the photo of the suspect marks, and get their opinion on the matter. I've never seen anything like that before and I wouldn't try to remedy it until you've spoken with Laco; they have a first-class customer service and I know they want you to be happy with your watch.


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## sci

Would be a nice watch if the marks on the case were not there. Definitely should be exchanged.


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## JSal

I received both of mine via FedEx on December 20th. Number 02 of 50 for both A & B models. Neither one had anything that resembled marks like that.

As Uwe has already mentioned, send LACO an email and include the pictures. I'm sure they will come up with a solution that will be to you approval.

Best wishes..


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## rcnich

Thanks all for your feedback. 
It's nice to benefit from the advice of such knowledgable LACO experts!
I have emailed LACO with the photos.
I'll let you know how it develops.

Happy holidays!


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## Janne

Laco are very good in dealing with warranty issues. I think they will refinish the case. 

Re different hands on the original ones. The design of the B design dial was strict, as we can see on the design document ( i have it downloaded on my work computer, not accessible from home) so any difference between the design and an existing watch is likely to be a post war alternation.
To put A dial hands on a B dial watch would defeat the whole design of the B dial. Even if a misstake was done, this would have been picked up at the post manufacturing tests and callibrations. And if not there, it would have been picked up by the responsible person at the Luftwaffe unit where the watch ended up.


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## Uwe W.

Janne said:


> I think they will refinish the case.


What makes you say that the case needs to be refinished? For all we know something just rubbed on it and left a mark that can be removed.



Janne said:


> Re different hands on the original ones. The design of the B design dial was strict, as we can see on the design document ( i have it downloaded on my work computer, not accessible from home) so any difference between the design and an existing watch is likely to be a post war alternation.


I completely disagree. I'm assuming that your "design document" is RLM Drawing #637, dated Dec. 1942. Not only doesn't that specification drawing cover B-Uhr models that pre-date Dec. 1942, it also doesn't specify exact dimensions for the hands. As I stated before, there were transitional models that used different hands, and as was recently demonstrated by an original B-Uhr shown in this forum with a non-Laco signed movement, anomalies DID roll off the production line that were still 100 percent original.



Janne said:


> To put A dial hands on a B dial watch would defeat the whole design of the B dial. Even if a misstake was done, this would have been picked up at the post manufacturing tests and callibrations. And if not there, it would have been picked up by the responsible person at the Luftwaffe unit where the watch ended up.


I have to disagree again. The design intent of the B-Muster (AND A-Muster) dial was to provide a highly legible method of timing using the second hand, and in some navigation duties, using the minute hand as well. With the exception of using the B-Uhr in the dark, putting A-Muster hands on a B-Muster dial really doesn't affect the watch's legibility, does it? Regardless, I'll bet that plenty of "substitutions" were made during wartime manufacturing because of the unavailability of certain parts.


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## Janne

Uwe W. said:


> View attachment 908567
> 
> Photo: Knirim


The speedy legibility works best with the correct hands. Sure, it is not a problem reading the minutes and hours in daylight of the above example, but night time it would be pretty confusing. The hands are virtually the same night time. 
I imagine the change from the A-dial to the B dial was done due to readability issues.

Seconds can bevread just as well on both dials.

Nothing points out to that they produced any transitional or mixed watches, only a few examples that could as well have been marriages.
I guess the people that would know best are mostly gone today. Maybe Laco could have an idea, but I believe most, if not all, archives and documents were up in smoke in -45.
Maybe the master watchmaker working for Laco has an idea.
Armed forces do not like if suppliers change the approved design on specs. Knowing the German mentality I find it pretty unusual if they allowed any changes.


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## Janne

I missed the Laco with the unsigned movement. I am very intersted in seeng that one. Can you pleaee point out to the thread/post?


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## Janne

rcnich said:


> but they are actually highly reflective areas, as if the matte finish had been rubbed off.
> After close inspection of the marks, I really don't think they were caused by the watch box foam,
> View attachment 915083
> View attachment 915084
> View attachment 915085
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am assuming the poster has a good eyesight, and his observation is close to the reality.
> 
> Anyway, Laco will fix the problem, whatever it is!
Click to expand...


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## Uwe W.

Janne said:


> Nothing points out to that they produced any transitional or mixed watches, only a few examples that could as well have been marriages.


The photo in your quote points out that they produced a transitional watch!!! It's serial number is 781, which suggests it came from the period of transition between the A- and B-Muster. Further backing this up is that its case had NO signs of wear; in other words, it wasn't tossed around to the point where it required being retro-fit after the war with an incorrect set of hands. Transitional, or "mixed" watches, are by their definition anomalies and therefore the rarest of the rare examples. You can hang onto your ideas of what a 'correct' B-Uhr is, but the reality of B-Uhr history isn't as cut and dry as you think it is and can't be summed up by one technical drawing created years after B-Uhr production had started.


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## Janne

The hands could have been fitted after the watch was delivered. I have not seen a pic of the side of the case, so I can not comment on the shape of the watch.
The truth is, you might be correct, but so can I. We will never know.
If course, you can hang on to your ideas about transitional pieces! As I will to mine!
It is good to discuss these things.

there is another possibilty, that the Dial could have been swapped. So the correct hands to the case and movement, but wrong dial.

And a funny thing is, that I own number 706 ! I guess my piece was made just a few weeks before that one.


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## rcnich

Today (in less than 24 hours) I received a response from LACO regarding the marks on the Limited Edition B-hur case:

"I am sorry about this scratches on your new Replika. It looks like the cases gets scratched during shipping. Please sent the watch back to our company, we will change the case into a new one as soon as possible. My apologize again for this trouble." 

So, does anyone have advice on how to return it?  I suppose I'll send it via FedEx, just as it came to me. Return in its original box or otherwise? Is any special notice or paperwork necessary to avoid customs taxes, etc?


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## Uwe W.

Janne said:


> The hands could have been fitted after the watch was delivered. I have not seen a pic of the side of the case, so I can not comment on the shape of the watch. And a funny thing is, that I own number 706 ! I guess my piece was made just a few weeks before that one.


Who would fit hands to a watch after it was delivered to an air unit? Why would a watch be sent from the production facility without hands? I'm not following your logic.
This particular watch was presented in Knirim's book and his assessment of its condition is satisfactory to me. I would also think that a B-Muster model with a number right after your A-Muster would be enough to convince you that this is an original example.

Keep in mind that we're not talking about a current-day civilian watch in which a new model is designed by a manufacturer and rolled out as part of a new collection. The B-Uhr was developed over many years and its lineage had numerous variants other than the A- and B-Muster models that you're familiar with. The B-Uhr was the product of a rolling development and not the master vision of some watch designer at the RLM.

I'll leave this as my concluding comment on the subject as we've been pulling this thread off-topic.


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## Uwe W.

rcnich said:


> So, does anyone have advice on how to return it?  I suppose I'll send it via FedEx, just as it came to me. Return in its original box or otherwise? Is any special notice or paperwork necessary to avoid customs taxes, etc?


Some return shipping information has been documented here - a search of this sub-forum will turn up the details - however, I'd strongly suggest asking Laco those questions directly as they are the ones who will be receiving the shipment. Glad to read that they're looking after you in such a timely fashion.


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## Janne

rcnich said:


> Today (in less than 24 hours) I received a response from LACO regarding the marks on the Limited Edition B-hur case:
> 
> "I am sorry about this scratches on your new Replika. It looks like the cases gets scratched during shipping. Please sent the watch back to our company, we will change the case into a new one as soon as possible. My apologize again for this trouble."
> 
> So, does anyone have advice on how to return it?  I suppose I'll send it via FedEx, just as it came to me. Return in its original box or otherwise? Is any special notice or paperwork necessary to avoid customs taxes, etc?


I would pack it in plenty of bubblewrap, in a cardboard Fedex box. This so the Laco box does not risk getting damaged, and to protect the watch a little bit more during transport. 
When I send watches I write "broken watch" on the description. 
Interesting they will change the case, as it means they have a few extra ( or maybe planning another superb LE?)


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## JSal

rcnich said:


> Today (in less than 24 hours) I received a response from LACO regarding the marks on the Limited Edition B-hur case:
> 
> "I am sorry about this scratches on your new Replika. It looks like the cases gets scratched during shipping. Please sent the watch back to our company, we will change the case into a new one as soon as possible. My apologize again for this trouble."
> 
> So, does anyone have advice on how to return it? I suppose I'll send it via FedEx, just as it came to me. Return in its original box or otherwise? Is any special notice or paperwork necessary to avoid customs taxes, etc?


As Uwe has already stated, I would ask LACO for those details... They will tell you what they prefer.

As for including the original box... I would not return the original box, or the strap. I would return just the watch head. Unless LACO is replacing the watch with a new unit.
The original B-Uhr's had fixed bars and the straps had to be riveted on. I believe the Replika's have traditional spring bars that will allow you to remove the strap.

Again, ask what they prefer you do.


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## rcnich

JSal said:


> As Uwe has already stated, I would ask LACO for those details... They will tell you what they prefer.
> 
> As for including the original box... I would not return the original box, or the strap. I would return just the watch head. Unless LACO is replacing the watch with a new unit.
> The original B-Uhr's had fixed bars and the straps had to be riveted on. I believe the Replika's have traditional spring bars that will allow you to remove the strap.
> 
> Again, ask what they prefer you do.


You guys are awesome. Thanks for your help!


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## 480/277

rcnich said:


> You guys are awesome. Thanks for your help!


+1


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## Janne

I do not know how the Customs are in your country, but I took copies if my email correspondence with Laco, plus the documents that went to Germany. Just so I could easily prove it was a warranty repair.
( no import duty)


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## SxSDoublegun

Trying not to hijack the thread, but there was a question about shipping via FedEx.

I have been an employee in the main sorting facility of FedEx for 27 years. In that time I have seen many damaged packages. Here are some tips;

Write out 4 address cards with both "from" and "ship to" addresses. One is attached to shipped object (watch).
NEVER put in the address a name indicating a high value shipment. Just write "Bob's" instead of "Bob's Fine Jewelry and Diamonds". In this case, just "Laco".
Use a box, never an envelope as the outer packaging. Box should never be smaller than 6" x 6" x 6".
Use bubble wrap around your shipped object, and place in tyvek envelope (free from FedEx). Drop address card in envelope and seal. WRITE ADDRESSES DIRECTLY ON ENVELOPE with sharpie.
Put in cardboard box. Pack hard and tight with crumpled newspaper. Put in another address card and seal box with packing tape around all three circumferences. WRITE ADDRESSES DIRECTLY ON BOX with sharpie.
For fragile and high value items put that box inside another box slightly larger. Cut pieces of cardboard to stuff between the two boxes for rigidity. Drop in last address card. and seal box with packing tape. WRITE ADDRESSES DIRECTLY ON BOX with sharpie. Tape all open edges of box and then tape all three circumferences.
On the Airway Bill, or BoL, always request a direct signature upon arrival and delivery.

With 700,000+ individual packages going en mass through our system 11 times each week, we see the results of paper envelopes and scotch office tape every day, and its nor pretty. (automotive brake pads in a yellow 12" x 18" paper envelope meant for legal documents!! Jars of home made pickles in a shoe box.)

I have shipped thousands of boxes over the years, and have never had one fail to reach its destination with the contents intact. 

I would like to thank all of the thread participants. I am just learning about the "Observers" watches and other military watches from the time period between the wars. I have a friend that performs historical reenactment in college and university lecture settings and he would like a period correct wrist watch. 

Any references would be appreciated.


Max


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## sci

I don't believe such a damage was done during the shipping. The watch should be extracted and ribbed on the floor to achieve this impressive results.
But in any case, thank you for the tips you shared with us. And welcome


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## rcnich

Thank you for your shipping advice, SxS. I have had uniformly positive experience shipping with FedEx.
I venture to say the 55mm LACO observer B-uhr Replika is about as close as one can get to a "period correct" wrist watch of this type. It offers the best of modern watch-making advances while remaining faithful to the appearance details of the original. In person, the 55mm LACO size is quite impressive -- and I would guess it would be so even when seen from the back of a university lecture hall.


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## rcnich

Sci, I too find it difficult to understand how the marks may have occurred during shipping. 

Nevertheless, the marks were on the case when I first opened the box and removed the watch. The packing foam surrounding the watch is very soft, yet firm. Perhaps if the shipping box received a long duration vibration (from transportation vehicles) such "polished" marks could be made as the watch moved up/down within its packing foam?

I purchased the watch for static display and as an "investment." And I assure you that I find no advantage in producing such marks which reduce the watch value, nor in the time and expense required to return the watch to LACO for refinishing. So I choose to believe you make your comments in jest.

Cheers and happy new year!


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## sci

rcnich, I don't believe in any way, that you produce the marks. I think it was some control misfortune at Laco before the packaging (during the production or handling).


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## Uwe W.

SxSDoublegun said:


> I would like to thank all of the thread participants. I am just learning about the "Observers" watches and other military watches from the time period between the wars. I have a friend that performs historical reenactment in college and university lecture settings and he would like a period correct wrist watch.
> Any references would be appreciated.


Hi Max. I haven't heard of too many reenactors who are interested in either the air or naval branches. If you want to PM me I'd be happy to make a few suggestions, but ultimately this discussion would be best started with a firm idea of what your friend's budget is for the watch. Then I would need to know which military units are being reenacted if you want to accurately represent a timepiece that was actually worn.


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## rcnich

An update to my earlier post regarding strange scuff marks on new 55 mm limited edition B-uhr...

After receiving instructions from Diana at LACO for returning the watch, it shipped via FedEx to Pforzhiem on January 3. (I applied SxSDoublegun's suggestions and returned only the watch, sans watch band and securely packaged in bubble wrap.)

On January 22 the watch arrived back from Germany in the same fashion that it was sent to them.

The scuff marks on the case (photos in earlier posts) are completely gone now. It appears that the case was refinished. The finish is now a flawless dark matte grey steel. I am immensely pleased with LACO for their efforts.

I had a friend take these photos of the watch now...

































Thank you to all here who helped with advice and suggestions!


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## Chris-John

I'm glad to see they have "fixed" the problems with the previous replica series, which as I understand it was A-style hands on B watch (don't want to argue about the transitional models, LOL), and B style lume where all the numbers are lumed, rather than alternate numbers lumed, which it looks like they got right this time.

IMO, the B style hands are way more readable and suitable for the intended purpose, because there is a lot more lume right out at the perimeter where the minute markings are. With A style hands, the lume is starting to get really thin and hard to distinguish when it gets out to the minute hands. I'm sure whoever in the Luftwaffe was designing the B dial watch thought about that. The B dial is a better design for the purpose, even though I love the A dial as well.

A lot of other A style watches on the market (Stowa, and innumerable other copies) do even a lot worse with A style hands. Just too thin and no lume at all out at the perimeter. Laco does the best I've seen on making the A style hands work. The Stowas have too much blue steel and not enough lume.

Someone on this thread said that the watch was designed for mainly second hand timings. I don't know that this is true. I think minute and second would have been critical.


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## StufflerMike

Chris-John said:


> ....I'm sure whoever in the Luftwaffe was designing the B dial watch thought about that.....


Nobody in the Luftwaffe designed the B-dial. There is no evidence in any literature that the Luftwaffe (read:Reichsluftfahrtministerium - RLM) designed the B-dial. I wonder where you got that from ? Even KNIRIM, a guy with excellent knowledge on german WW-II watches, did not mention anything like that. The RLM just set up the specs and it was up to those interested in delivering the B-Uhren to fit into the functional specifications document.


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## Chris-John

Err... The RLM made the specs, as you say, including a picture of the B dial. All the manufacturers made the same dial. But the RLM didn't design it??? I'm scratching my head about your post.


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## StufflerMike

Yes, the RLM did not design it. The dials have been discussed with the Deutsche Seewarte and a well known watch manufacturer. In a nutshell: The most practicable recommendation was made by Regierungsrat (councilor) Dr. Rapsold, German Hydrographic Office (Deutsche Seewarte).

Here's an early letter (dated 1935) of the RLM (just) describing the needs and covering the issue:



> "Wie auf S. 3 des Entwurfs für ein neues Naut. Jahrbuch der Luftfahrt berichtet wurde, wird in Vorschlag gebracht, die für die Zwecke der astronom. Navigation benötigten Uhren und Chronometer anstelle der Stundeneinteilung mit entsprechender Grad-Teilung zu versehen. Die Gründe, die für diese Bezifferung sprechen, sind in dem Entwurf bereits aufgezeichnet. Die Herstellung solcher Uhren dürfe keine Schwierigkeiten bereiten. Eine Rücksprache bei einer maßgebenden deutschen Uhren-
> firma ist bereits in die Wege geleitet. Bezüglich der Einrichtung des Ziffernblatts lassen sich Vorschläge zur Ausführung bringen, von welchen einige im Anhang zur Darstellung gebracht worden sind. Der gangbarste Vorschlag ist m. E. der Vorschlag, der von Reg.Rat Dr. Rapsold von der Deutschen Seewarte gemacht worden ist.
> 
> Die Forderungen, die an das Ziffernblatt einer Uhr, sei es B-Uhr oder bodenständiger Chronometer, zu stellen sind, sind:
> 
> Deutliche Bezifferung;
> Eindeutige und leichte Möglichkeit, die richtige Zeit abzulesen.
> Um diesen Gesichtspunkten gerecht werden zu können, muss zunächst einmal auf jede Doppelbezifferung, woran z. B. bezüglich der
> Verwendung der Uhr sowohl für Zwecke astron. Ortung als auch als gewöhnliche Zeituhr gedacht werden könnte, verzichtet werden. (Lindberg Longines Uhr). Ferner muss verzichtet werden auf jede Art von verstellbaren Ziffernblättern, um z. B. Stand, Länge usw. berichtigen zu können, dies auch aus Gründen, um bei den verschiedenartigen Vorzeichen Irrtümer bei der Einstellung zu vermeiden.
> Zu prüfen ist die Frage, ob B-Uhren Zeigerstoppvorrichtungen erhalten sollen, um die Möglichkeit zu schaffen, die Uhren nach de
> r M.G.Z. einregulieren zu können. Die Seewarte ist der Ansicht, dass der Gang guter B-Uhren nicht beeinflusst würde. Über diese Frage wird sofort ein weiteres Gutachten der Firma *Lange & Söhne *eingeholt...
> 
> Bezüglich der Eigenschaften der B-Uhren sind an diese folgende Allgemeinforderungen zu Stellen:
> 1.) großer Widerstand gegenüber Erschütterungen,
> 2.) absolute Zuverlässigkeit bei niedrigen Temperaturen bis -20°C
> 3.) gleichmäßige und kontrollierte Gangeigenschaften auch in den unter 1) und 2) genannten Fällen.
> In der äußeren Form müssen alle B-Uhren als Armbanduhren ausgeführt sein. Was die unter 1) und 2) aufgeführten Forderungen betrifft, so liegen über diese Punkte von deutschen Uhren bisher noch keine Erfahrungen vor, so dass Allgemeingültiges, insbesondere über den Gütegrad deutscher Uhren bei niedrigen Temperaturen noch nichts gesagt werden kann.
> Es befindet sich jedoch 1 B-Uhr einer namhaften deutschen Fabrikation z. Zt. bei der Chronometerstelle der Deutschen Seewarte
> zur Prüfung. Uhren anderer deutscher Fabrikate sollen zu diesen Prüfungen ebenfalls eingefordert werden und wird über den Ausfall der Prüfung zur gegebenen Zeit berichtet werden.
> Dasselbe gilt für Sternzeituhren, von denen 1 deutschen Fabrikats (Junghans) und eine Schweizer (Zenith) ebenfalls z.Zt. noch
> geprüft werden. Zu beobachten ist bei allen Uhrenprüfungen bei niederen Temperaturen, dass die Uhren mit ausgefrorenem Öl versehen sind. Die Sternzeituhren würden bei Einführung der 'Teilung entsprechend den anderen astronomischen Uhren dieselbe Bezifferung erhalten. Dasselbe gilt für die Bezifferung der Zeitzeichenschemata".


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## Uwe W.

stuffler said:


> Yes, the RLM did not design it.


You're wasting your time Mike. I attempted to clear up this misconception in another thread here to no avail. It's little wonder that so much misinformation concerning B-Uhr history exists on the internet.


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## Chris-John

Uwe W. said:


> You're wasting your time Mike. I attempted to clear up this misconception in another thread here to no avail. It's little wonder that so much misinformation concerning B-Uhr history exists on the internet.


It seems like you are tilting at windmills. So the RLM consulted various folks. That's great. But what name appears on the design document? RLM. I can't say Apple designed the iPhone, because actually there are 50 companies involved in it, and 10,000 people were consulted to make it happen?


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## StufflerMike

It's not a design document at all. My advice would be to read all the Gerätegruppeblätter and you will get the system. RLM set up the requirement suppliers had to fit in. However, the development was a give and take by RLM and manufacturers. If you believe that all navigation instruments from Fl 23000 to 23999 you are badly wrong and overestimate the factual capabilities and human resources. That being said believe what you want to believe.


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## Chris-John

stuffler said:


> It's not a design document at all.


Really? Not "at all"? If I gave that document to 10 people off the street, how would they describe what it is? I'm pretty sure to a man they would say "this is a design for a watch".


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## JSal

Chris-John, I may be wrong, (and please excuse me if I am) but I'm not sure if you understand how military contract designs work. 

The branch of military gives "Specific Parameters" and "Specifications" that the item to be made (be it a weapon, watch, clothing, etc) must meet.

Then individual chosen contractor/s design and make the item which will include those parameters and specs. 

The military then inspects the prototype and either approves, disapproves, or asks for changes to be made.

Once approval is given, the contract is awarded and production commences.


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## StufflerMike

Chris-John said:


> Really? Not "at all"? If I gave that document to 10 people off the street, how would they describe what it is? I'm pretty sure to a man they would say "this is a design for a watch".


Well, make sure those 10 have a clue and know about the interaction of a military procurement office during the 30s and 40s and the manufacturers of B-Uhren.


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## Uwe W.

JSal said:


> Chris-John, I may be wrong, but I'm not sure if you understand how military contract designs work.


You're right, he doesn't. I've already tried to explain this point to him in another post to no avail. Consequently, I see no point in providing even more proof, especially not when it appears that someone is intentionally being intransigent.


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## picklepossy

Your wasting your time trying to explain how it works to someone who already convinced himself that he is right and everyone else is wrong.


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