# Open source timing software.



## contrate_wheel

Hi guys,

I have a more or less usable version of my timing program that is ready
for initial testing, if anyone is interested.

First the goodies. Here are Windows binaries
http://ciovil.li/tg.zip
and here is the full source code
https://github.com/vacaboja/tg

Now some info on the program. This program is released under the GNU GPL
license, version 2 -- basically you can do what you want with it, free of
charge, no warranty, if you redistribute a (modified) version, you must
distribute also the source code. If you want to build from source, you
need gtk+ (I'm using v. 2.24), portaudio2, and fftw3, plus a C99 compiler
clearly. If you want to run the Windows version, just download the zip
archive, unzip, double click.

This program tries to pick up audio from the default audio input of your
computer, which should be the same that Audacity defaults to, so you can
test the audio setup with Audacity. It does not fiddle with the volume:
just check that it is set to a reasonable level. Of course the rate that
you get from this program, for any watch, is affected by the rate of the
clock of your sound card: the same holds for all timing programs and there
is no escape (except calibrating the card against a reliable time source).

The algorithm I decided to use is quite hungry of computing power, so I
made two versions: "tg" is the full version, "tg-lt" is a lighter version.
The light version sacrifices some accuracy and noise resilience for speed.

My intended audience is amateurs and tinkerers. This program has not been
written for professionals, neither do I want to compete with
professionally built hardware or software, nor with those that can write
better software on their own. In particular I have set to myself the
following three goals.

One. Try a less conventional algorithm to deal with bad audio, at the
expense of lots of number crunching (all other programs for which I did
find information online use possibly some band pass filter and a threshold
trigger, we do it differently). I can currently obtain satisfactory
results from the internal mic of my ThinkPad and a few other lower quality
mics. I don't know how it will perform with a good piezo, but I am
interested (probably, for clean audio, mine is not the best approach).
Your mileage may vary.

Two. To avoid complaints like this one
Review: TickoPrint Android App | Watch Guy
the entire operation of the algorithm is designed to be double-checkable.
In particular, the waveforms that the program associates to the tics and
tocs of the watch are shown in real time, so one can check that they are
properly recognized and properly aligned. The slope representing the
currently detected instantaneous rate is drawn (the blue lines) on the
timing-machine-like graph, etc. See also the discussion here for some
example of such double checking
https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/definition-beat-error-2394130.html

Three. Make it open source, so other people can tinker with the source
code (well, this one was the easy part).

Usage should be quite intuitive for those that know how an escapement
works. See also the thread referenced above for more info.

That's all for now. Any feedback is appreciated.


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## mars-red

I poked through the source a bit, and have grabbed the windows build. I can't wait to actually try it out, I'll need to dig up the old piezo mic I cobbled together years ago.

Thanks for doing this, especially as FOSS. I started a half-hearted attempt a few years back but became too bored with learning about FFTs to see it through. I'm glad there was someone else out there willing to stick to it.


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## contrate_wheel

mars-red said:


> I poked through the source a bit, and have grabbed the windows build. I can't wait to actually try it out, I'll need to dig up the old piezo mic I cobbled together years ago.


Thanks a lot!

Theoretically, you should not need a piezo. For instance, this
http://ciovil.li/tic4.wav
is one of the test cases that I have been using (it's a weak watch with lots of beat error and dogs, recorded with some regular microphone). If you can get audio of this quality, then the program -- wishful thinking -- should give you some reasonable output. Audio like this one, for instance, also works apparently well (I'm not the author of this video, I just used YouTube as another source of test cases)




This is the mother of all test cases (I'm not the author of this either)




the current version, here, does not lock on the 18000 bph. The 21600 is all over the place, and the amplitude is so bad that it's out of the scale, but that's a problem of the watch, not of the program.

I'm not a Windows user, so the Windows version has not been properly tested. If it gives absolutely no reaction, then just assume that something is wrong with my audio interface. In this case, I would be grateful if you let me know.


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## mars-red

contrate_wheel said:


> .. and dogs, ...


LOL!!!

That made my morning.

I will happily give it a spin on my windows 10 machine and let you know how it goes.


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## Klaus Tickalot

Kudos to you contrate_wheel !!!

Both versions are running perfectly (Win10) I've just finished "playing" with your software for a while with simple and inexpensive hobbyist equipment (small amplifier ~10€ + battery ~75ct + guitar pick-up-clip ~2€ + some cables from my junk box + some soldering)

The algorythm for filtering noise and calculating timesignal IMHO seems to be crazy good.
I recently adjusted one of my watches using biburo and today checked it using your new programm. My conclusion: 100% plug-and-play  100% working  100% fun 

I try to add some pictures (upload-newbie ... sorry if it fails)














3H






6H






9H






12H






CH






FH


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## emso

good working but i cant see the amplitude values here, are they available because its an must information of how good the watch is repaired/condition


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## mars-red

emso said:


> good working but i cant see the amplitude values here, are they available because its an must information of how good the watch is repaired/condition


While that information would be wonderful, for me the app is still very useful without it because I usually work on older watches with low beat rates and I can get a good idea of the amplitude by eye. It would be great to have an exact, and accurate, value though, so I hope that our friend is able to add that feature sometime.


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## Klaus Tickalot

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I guess the amplitude is given. 
Testing another watch (that I cleaned about 1 1/2 year ago and just wound up) a difference is visible (marked in screenshot). In my opinion it'll give about 300° to the one side and about 280° to the other.
Is my speculation right that the hairspring is not exactly in the middle of the pins?


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## contrate_wheel

Klaus Tickalot said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong. I guess the amplitude is given.
> Testing another watch (that I cleaned about 1 1/2 year ago and just wound up) a difference is visible (marked in screenshot). In my opinion it'll give about 300° to the one side and about 280° to the other.
> Is my speculation right that the hairspring is not exactly in the middle of the pins?



First of all, many thanks to you for your review, and also to the other
participants of this thread.

You are absolutely right that the amplitude is given, and also on the 
method to read it. The decision not to show the amplitude in a numerical
format is actually deliberate. In fact, you pointed out quite clearly one 
of the reasons that lead me to this decision: let me describe it more in
detail for the rest of the readers. The amplitude, as your figure
demonstrates quite clearly, is determined by the timing of the first pulse
of each tic or toc (relative to the third pulse, and also by the lift
angle, etc.). It happens quite often that this timing is not consistent
between the tics and the tocs, so the tics suggest an amplitude of, for 
instance in your case, 300 deg, and the tocs of 280. Some difference is, 
actually, almost always there. So what can we say about the amplitude in a
case like this? Honestly, the only correct statement, is that we estimate
the amplitude to be about 280-300 degrees. Any more precise figure, like
293 or something, would be a misrepresentation. This is not a deficiency
of the algorithm: you can check with Audacity, for instance, that the tics
and the tocs are actually different. The data is quite simply not there.

In conclusion, I elected to let the user, with his human brain and his 
common sense, do the pattern matching and read the amplitude off the 
graphs. That is in keeping with the principle of producing only
information that can be understood and checked, no magic numbers. In
conclusion, for me, it is a feature, not a deficiency.

On the other hand, I started this thread precisely to know your opinions
about this program, so I am very interested to know if you find that this
was a bad choice.

About the reason of the difference, you suggest that it is because the gap 
between the pins is too large. I have completely no idea. Maybe sometimes
the actual (as opposed to nominal) lift angle of the tics and the tocs is
slightly different due to manufacturing tolerances, the banking pins being
a little out of symmetry, or some other form of the multifarious
phenomenon known as bad luck. I would love to read the opinion of a
watchmaker.


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## ocram

See this








Now this








and this








Wow. Just, wow.
Never had such accurate read using the microphone integrated in my cheap logitech webcam.
Your idea to use instantaneous frequency is a game changer. Fantastic job |>
// ocram
P.S. Windows binaries OK on all versions except WinXP and below.


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## contrate_wheel

Thanks a lot, Ocram, for testing on newer Windows systems, and also for
your "like" and your review. I have a penchant for doing idle blah blah on
this forum, so you will excuse me if I take your screenshot as an
opportunity to indulge.

You pointed out exactly the kind of use case that I had in mind! Cheap
consumer mic, and a diver case that, I believe, does not help. If we
imagine an absolute beginner, he will almost invariably be more or less in
such conditions. At least I was in these conditions (and I still am an 
absolute beginner at best). The only option that one can trust and does
not involve some form of commitment is to use generic audio editing
programs like Audacity. This method is sure, but so slow and boring that
even I (despite being thorough _and_ slow) became discouraged.

Also one can see in your screenshot my other reason not to include a
numeric display for the amplitude. When the audio is bad, it might be
still possible to get the rate and the beat error, but the amplitude is
often lost because the first pulse is to weak to come through the noise.
The user can read the graphs and decide very easily, but, at least for me,
to design an algorithm that reliably does that is a nightmare (or perhaps
a dream). And also pointless, because the user can do it better than the
machine anyway.


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## contrate_wheel

Hi my friends!

Just a little update: I fixed a bug in the algorithm that prevented it
from locking in some situations, and I made a small change to the 
interface. Download link, the same.
http://ciovil.li/tg.zip

I really appreciated the enthusiastic reviews of Klaus and Ocram (Marco?),
however I would like to find the remaining bugs and call it v.1.0. So
anyone who tries it and is dissatisfied will have my gratitude if he drops
a line, even by PM. Any critical opinion is welcome. (However please
update to the latest version.)

By the way, I am becoming addicted to test every random watch from
Youtube: it makes even a noob like me feel like I have the elusive BCB.
And you don't get this with any other program! For eye-candy, here you 
have one with birds, I suppose, and severe positional variation.


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## pilotingpete

Hi Contrate_wheel,

Your program looks neat. It might have been a different thread, but I think you were suggesting compiling for OSX would be trivial. 

Could you post instructions on how to do this? I am running OSX 10.10.4 if that is of interest.


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## emso

contrate_wheel said:


> Hi my friends!
> 
> Just a little update: I fixed a bug in the algorithm that prevented it
> from locking in some situations, and I made a small change to the
> interface. Download link, the same.
> http://ciovil.li/tg.zip
> 
> I really appreciated the enthusiastic reviews of Klaus and Ocram (Marco?),
> however I would like to find the remaining bugs and call it v.1.0. So
> anyone who tries it and is dissatisfied will have my gratitude if he drops
> a line, even by PM. Any critical opinion is welcome. (However please
> update to the latest version.)
> 
> By the way, I am becoming addicted to test every random watch from
> Youtube: it makes even a noob like me feel like I have the elusive BCB.
> And you don't get this with any other program! For eye-candy, here you
> have one with birds, I suppose, and severe positional variation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5972098


as i said could you add the amplitude even the average one, that would mean a lot to the more serious hobbyst's .

br emso


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## contrate_wheel

pilotingpete said:


> Hi Contrate_wheel,
> 
> Your program looks neat. It might have been a different thread, but I think you were suggesting compiling for OSX would be trivial.
> 
> Could you post instructions on how to do this? I am running OSX 10.10.4 if that is of interest.


I can not write instructions because I don't have a mac to experiment with, but, if you want, let's try it!

So, you need to be able to compile C99, if you have make and pkg-config things will be easier, and you need to link with gtk+2, portaudio2, and fftw3. There are multiple ways to achieve this, either installing the development tools and libraries sparately, or using some distribution that packages all of them. When I had a mac (centuries ago), I used FINK (Fink - Home), and they seem to be still alive.

In short, you need (1) being confortable with the command line, (2) a working development environment, as in "beeing able to compile hello-world", (3) it's better to have make and pkg-config, (4) gtk+2 -- version 3 might also work, (5) portaudio2 and fftw3.

To make progress I need to know at which step you are...


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## contrate_wheel

emso said:


> as i said could you add the amplitude even the average one, that would mean a lot to the more serious hobbyst's .
> 
> br emso


Thanks, you made me reconsider my design a bit.

As Klaus demostrated, the amplitude is there, it's just not written as a number. For instance, in the screenshot above (pretending that the lift angle 52 is correct: I didn't look it up), the amplitude is about 155 deg.

I have three questions:
1 - Did you try the program on your setup?
2 - Was it hard to read the amplitude from the graph (if yes, screenshot or even better sound sample would be appreciated)?
3 - Why do you feel that the number is better than the picture?

The third is not a rethorical question. Users are king, so if users really prefer a number, then I will see what I can do to get it!


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## emso

contrate_wheel said:


> Thanks, you made me reconsider my design a bit.
> 
> As Klaus demostrated, the amplitude is there, it's just not written as a number. For instance, in the screenshot above (pretending that the lift angle 52 is correct: I didn't look it up), the amplitude is about 155 deg.
> 
> I have three questions:
> 1 - Did you try the program on your setup?no but i believe it will work i'm in process of building the microphone
> 2 - Was it hard to read the amplitude from the graph (if yes, screenshot or even better sound sample would be appreciated)?its very difficult to spot it and to a beginner it would be difficult and errors might occur, numerical values are what the people are used to (from other timing softwares and machines) and would prefer, rarely anyone sees the soundwaves, especially if there is no very difficult defect to find
> 3 - Why do you feel that the number is better than the picture? in working environment there is no time to analyze the picture
> 
> The third is not a rethorical question. Users are king, so if users really prefer a number, then I will see what I can do to get it!


my answers in red

br
emso


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## contrate_wheel

@Emso

Thanks, makes sense. I will see if I can get a more or less reliable number, at least when the audio is good.


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## Klaus Tickalot

contrate_wheel said:


> I have three questions:
> 1 - Did you try the program on your setup?
> 2 - Was it hard to read the amplitude from the graph (if yes, screenshot or even better sound sample would be appreciated)?
> 3 - Why do you feel that the number is better than the picture?


@1 setup as shown in first picture
@2 let me say ... depending ... I tried to add some soundfiles to show you why, but have not been able to upload them o|
@3 to have an unreliable number is not as helpful as a reliable graph. I prefer to decide by myself if the amplitude can be read from the raw-data. An additional value in form of a number would be fine.

This screenshot is a combination showing both, your timegrapher and biburo.









The signal from this watch is quite good, even if the caseback is still closed. Reason might be, that the movement is fit directly into the case without a casing-ring made of plastic.

A Promaster with closed caseback gives a weak signal and therefore I would not trust an average amplitude value. To get an even better signal I usually open the caseback and contact the pick-up-clip directly to the movement, which will give a stronger signal, therefore allow to reduce amplification and consequently reduce the noiselevel.









Maybe I'll think about servicing this watch some day (at least adjust the repére).









(some soundfiles for the "addicted" will follow if you can give a "how-to-upload" ;-) )


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## contrate_wheel

Klaus Tickalot said:


> @1 setup as shown in first picture
> @2 let me say ... depending ... I tried to add some soundfiles to show you why, but have not been able to upload them o|
> @3 to have an unreliable number is not as helpful as a reliable graph. I prefer to decide by myself if the amplitude can be read from the raw-data. An additional value in form of a number would be fine.


Thank you. I was actually asking these questions specifically to Emso, yet your answers are very welcome!

I agree with you. I will try to add a numerical value, without subtracting anything from the current design. As you see, one needs to devise an algorithm smart enough to decide whether the numerical amplitude is reliable (and then show it) or not. I have definitely to think and experiment, but it would be stupid not to try.

Your sound samples would definitely help me immensely. In particular the good ones. By the way, if anyone is interested in contributing to this project, real world samples are the thing that I need more.

I don't know how to upload them on the forum, if possible at all. As you can see I am a noob. You could put them in Dropbox, or somewhere else on the public internet, and post a link. Feel free to PM if you don't like posting it. I will also send you my e-mail by PM, so you can e-mail them to me, if you prefer. If you can, use an uncompressed format (zipped .wav is OK), and take at least 30 seconds.

Thanks again!


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## Baillive

Ok, so I can't post links... I will give the title of the relevant articles to search on google.

Thank you very much for this wonderful programm, contrate_wheel, this is how I got it working on OSX:


Install xcode command line tools (this is the compiler, you can find the instructions ont this article : How to Install Command Line Tools in OS X Mavericks & Yosemite (Without Xcode) (OSX daily)
Install Homebrew (this is the modern equivalent of fink) : brew(dot)sh
Type in your terminal : brew install gtk+ portaudio fftw
Time to compile tg, and here things get a little complicated :
You can download the version I compiled using the following link (dropbox(dot)com/s/bqefi53fyxhl6bz/tg-master.zip?dl=0). You can use it by clicking on the tg executable. Your mac will probably complain that the executable come from an unknown source (the solution is here : OS X Mavericks: Open an app from an unidentified developer (apple)).
Alternatively, you can download the latest source version and compile it. But this will result in an error and *contrat_wheel help is needed* : the OSX compiler treat any flag he doesn't know as error and abord the make process. Turn out he doesn't know the flag "-fcx-limited-range" and I was only able to compile the programm after removing this flag for the makefile. I don't know what this flag mean, but the programm seems to run fine without it. Can you remove it, or deactivate it somehow when compiling on OSX ?



For a primer on how to use the Terminal : Introduction to the Mac OS X Command Line (teamthreehouse)


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## diveboy

looking good. just need to have the microphone/amplifer opensourced and we are all gonna be happy.

If your looking for ideas, heres some suggestions

1. export/import to file so you can share it with someone
2. export to report file (pdf/jpg) so you can store it with the watch in your records 
3. as someone has said, needs instructions or a what is this saying section for noobs like myself

Thanks so much for your time on this already


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## contrate_wheel

@*Baillive*

Thanks a lot! The flag *-fcx-limited-range* enables an optimazation on complex division: it has completely no impact, not even on performance. So I *removed* it. Actually I don't even remember why it was there, probably left over from some previous version of the algorithm. It's great that you managed to compile on OS X! As soon as I'm satisfied with this testing phase, if you agree, I will ask your help to make a mac binary to distribute. Maybe you could not post links because that was your first post? Some sort of anti-spam countermeasure? It seems strange because I am sure that I posted links on my first post.

@*Diveboy*

Thanks. There are many schematics for microphones and ampifiers on the internet, and also on this very forum, I believe. However, my program has been designed to work with bad microphones, at least a little, and, in fact, it is the first program out there made specifically for this goal, as far as I know. The idea of using a clip-on guitar pickup suggested by *Klaus* in this thread sounds very very good to me. Unfortunately I didn't have time to experiment with that, but I most probably will. There is even the possibility that it might work without the amplifier: Klaus, did you try?

Now I am debugging (thanks to *Ocram* for a lot of support and some pretty good testing) and working to add an amplitude display. The import and export to file is definitely a good idea, actually I had this capability in place in a much older version of the program, but I removed it because it became messy to maintain. To analyze a sound file, if you want a workaround, you can just redirect digitally the sound output of your system to a virtual input device, set this as default input, and play the sound file with just any player. This is how I test the program on known samples. On linux/pulseaudio, this can be done in just a couple of clicks using pavucontrol. There must be a way to do it on Windows as well, but I don't know it.

A couple of pages of manual will definitely come as soon as we are at version 1.0. At least if there is enough interest.


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## Halda

This looks great! Looking forward to future development.

I'm also on OS X, and can confirm it working on OS X 10.11 El Capitan.

The instructions posted above by Baillive does work, but note that you have to first install the required libraries via Brew before you can run the pre-compiled app. If we want a full stand-alone OS X app, it needs packaging together with GTK+ etc.

Some feedback on the amplitude discussion: I think it should be displayed like most other Timegraphers do. Check the Witschi technical paper. Their description of the amplitude makes it seem that they only measure the tic OR the toc pulses. I.e. the 1st and 3rd pulse OR 2nd and 4th. It's not entirely clear if the value they display is the average, but it does look like that. They also display the standard deviation, which is a nice extra.

BTW: If the amplitude measurements are different between tics/tocs that would mean the watch is out of beat, right?


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## fixer29

diveboy said:


> looking good. just need to have the microphone/amplifer opensourced and we are all gonna be happy.


A contact mic is not too hard to make, just scavenged one together out of junk yesterday with a piezo disc and an old pair of headphones, but the preamp is a bit trickier. I've ordered some components last night to try and make one, and if I get it working I'll see if I can put together some pictures and instructions etc. to post here for everyone else.


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## consum3r

Just curious ... has anyone tried compiling on any Linux distro?


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## Ticonderoga

ocram said:


> See this
> View attachment 5912778
> 
> 
> Now this
> View attachment 5912786
> 
> 
> and this
> View attachment 5912802
> 
> 
> Wow. Just, wow.
> Never had such accurate read using the microphone integrated in my cheap logitech webcam.
> Your idea to use instantaneous frequency is a game changer. Fantastic job |>
> // ocram
> P.S. Windows binaries OK on all versions except WinXP and below.


05:00 - when I wake up, I have something to look forward to trying!


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## Halda

Several people have mentioned microphones and amplifiers; There's another DIY Timegrapher software that has instructions for constructing both a mic and amp. Website here.

(The drawback with that software is that it's Windows only, so I have never tried it out myself.)


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## contrate_wheel

*@consum3r*
- Linux: yes, I developed on Debian Jessie. Should compile under any common distro. You need gtk+2, portaudio, and fftw3 (on Debian or Ubuntu you need to install the -dev version of these libraries, don't know other distros).

*@Halda*
- Yes, a statically linked OS X binary would be better. To make one, it might be enough to modity the Makefile adding -static to the LDFLAGS and also --static to the pkg-config command in there.
- Out of beat means that the beat error is (significantly) different from zero. An asymmetry in the tic's and the toc's waveforms is something different. How to interpret it, in a horological sense, was already asked by Klaus and by me. I am no watchmaker, so I don't know, and unfortunately no one answered.
- Watch-O-Scope is a very nice commercial program, it comes for free in restricted form for non commercial use, and its author is also a member of this forum. It's much superior to biburo, in my personal opinion, which is also for free proprietary software. Another very complete program is Watch Escapement Analyzer, unfortunately the interactive version comes at a fee. All of these programs take a similar approach (as far as I can tell) and the algorithm of tg is radically different. I had fun comparing them together and with tg.

I hope to find the time to put out a tentative amplitude display this weekend.


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## diveboy

had a play tonight for a little. This is using a piezo as a microphone

Elgin Grade 760










and this is a Elgin Grade 69 first run from 1867










it had trouble with a high beat movement, kept jumping between 18,000 and 36,000.


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## contrate_wheel

diveboy said:


> it had trouble with a high beat movement, kept jumping between 18,000 and 36,000.


Thanks! You have hit a known bug, that was already fixed, hopefully. However, my fault, I forgot to make a new Windows binary. May I ask you to re-download (you will recognize the latest version by "tg 0.1.0" in the upper left corner), repeat the experiment once more, and tell me the result?

Clearly you understood that the beat error 3.6ms for your Elgin Grade 760 is spurious. I guess that tg actually displayed a value close to zero, the correct one, most of the time, and it jumped to 3.6 occasionally. This happens because, as you can see, the waveforms of the tic and the toc are very different from eachother, and this fact confuses tg quite a bit. It would help me a lot if you could send me a 30 seconds recording of your watch...

The Elgin Grade 69 looks great! Is the lift angle of this movement really 52?

Thanks again for your contribution!


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## diveboy

Feature requests

1. "Reset" button, I found when swapping watches I was just closing it and launching it again. 


The Elgin Grade 760 hasn't been serviced, so I expect it to be "random" and didn't read too much into it. 

The Elgin grade 69 has been serviced by an expert and you can clearly see the results. I'll confirm the lift angle with said expert and redo the testing if it's different.

I'll download again and test in the next 48 hours.

Thanks again


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## contrate_wheel

diveboy said:


> two feature requests
> 
> 1. "Reset" button, I found when swapping watches I was just closing it and launching it again.
> 2. Version number in Title - will confirm what version is being ran.
> 
> The Elgin Grade 760 hasn't been serviced, so I expect it to be "random" and didn't read too much into it.
> 
> The Elgin grade 69 has been serviced by an expert and you can clearly see the results. I'll confirm the lift angle with said expert and redo the testing if it's different.
> 
> I'll download again and test in the next 48 hours.
> 
> Thanks again


Great, thanks to you!

Feature 1. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that the animation stops when a watch is not detected any more. This is just to allow close examination of the trace. As soon as a watch is detected again, tg should resume its normal function automatically. Can you confirm?
Feature 2. Just did  Starting from the latest version it's on the top left of the window, before there was no version number at all...


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## diveboy

contrate_wheel said:


> Great, thanks to you!
> 
> Feature 1. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that the animation stops when a watch is not detected any more. This is just to allow close examination of the trace. As soon as a watch is detected again, tg should resume its normal function automatically. Can you confirm?
> Feature 2. Just did  Starting from the latest version it's on the top left of the window, before there was no version number at all...


it does resume but I like a clean slate for a new test, IE if I change watch or change watch position, then by resetting the display, I know when it started testing, I don't have to remember at what point I changed something.


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## contrate_wheel

diveboy said:


> it does resume but I like a clean slate for a new test, IE if I change watch or change watch position, then by resetting the display, I know when it started testing, I don't have to remember at what point I changed something.


I see, basically a "clear trace" button. That's a good idea, and it's also very easy to add. I will certainly do it in the version with the amplitude!

Thanks again!


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## diveboy

What format do you want the recording in?


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## contrate_wheel

diveboy said:


> What format do you want the recording in?


I would prefer a lossless format (.wav for instance), but anything will do! I PM to you my e-mail address in case you prefer to send it there. Thanks again!


----------



## contrate_wheel

*Nuntio vobis gaudium magnum: habemus amplitudinem!*

Well, just a little update to tell you that I have a tentative amplitude algorithm that should be more or less stable if the audio is good. The download link is the same
http://ciovil.li/tg.zip
and the source code is here
https://github.com/vacaboja/tg

Thanks to all those that contributed so far, and in particular to Baillive, Diveboy, Klaus, and Ocram.

Testing is dearly needed and comments of all sorts are deeply appreciated!

Here is the obbligatory screenshot of tg 0.2.0 running on a fine sample provided by Klaus.


----------



## Baillive

Great !

I tried to compile on OSX, but the executable crash at launch because he's not able to find the font, even if they are in the same folder. The result was the same when I installed the font on the system.

I tried a few things, but I was not able to find a workaround. Maybe the solution is to use relative path ? Or maybe the system for selecting a font is fundamentally different on OSX.


----------



## Halda

I was going to do a small UI suggestion and ask for the data fields in the same order as real machines, but when checking I realized they are not all the same.

The original red Witschi Watch Expert had the fields as: RATE - BEAT ERROR - AMPLITUDE (and bph & lift angle at the bottom)

Witschi Watch Expert III has: RATE - AMPLITUDE - BEAT ERROR (and at the bottom CALIBER PARAMETERS, with bph & lift angle)

The Chinese Timegraphers are: RATE - AMPLITUDE - BEAT ERROR - PARAMETERS (bph / lift angle)

I guess the common order is to have the amplitude before the beat error, so maybe those could be switched around. Perhaps the bph reading could be moved out to after the bph setting above, since it's not something that will change.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Baillive said:


> Great !
> 
> I tried to compile on OSX, but the executable crash at launch because he's not able to find the font, even if they are in the same folder. The result was the same when I installed the font on the system.
> 
> I tried a few things, but I was not able to find a workaround. Maybe the solution is to use relative path ? Or maybe the system for selecting a font is fundamentally different on OSX.


Thanks, I am baffled. I added some error reporting, could you please update your source and tell me the error message?


----------



## Baillive

Here it is : error #1 in FT_New_Face()


----------



## Halda

I tried to compile the latest update on my Mac (OS X 10.11.1) and it fails at "#include <cairo/cairo-ft.h>" 
If I change it to "#include <cairo-ft.h>" it works. Any ideas why?

Anyways, I'm getting the same error as Baillive does for what it's worth.

*Edit:* I did some further debugging this morning and found that using the full path to the font file in FT_New_Face will make the error go away, so it must be a problem with locating the file.

I'm not sure where Freetype is looking for relative file names, but changing #define INTERFACE_FONT "VeraMono.ttf" to "./VeraMono.ttf" will fix the problem on Mac (assuming the font is located next to the executable).

_However_, no text will show up in the interface. The FreeType font does seem to load properly because it reports a valid number of glyphs available etc.

I did manage to get text showing up by replacing cairo_set_font_face(c,cr_face) in cairo_init with something that didn't use that specific font:

cairo_select_font_face (c, "sans-serif", CAIRO_FONT_SLANT_NORMAL, CAIRO_FONT_WEIGHT_NORMAL);


----------



## contrate_wheel

@Halda

Beautiful, thanks a lot!

I was about to ask you to try more or less the same experiment, in fact I just updated the code in such a way that it builds a path. I also replaced FT_New_Face() with FT_Open_Face(), that should follow the same code path under linux and OS X. It would great if you could try again, but I believe that the same result will follow (no text visible).

If it still does not work, I will just use a default font as fallback. The problem with using the default font is that, at least under Windows, not always the monospace one is really monospace. Yet it's better than nothing I guess...


----------



## Halda

contrate_wheel said:


> It would great if you could try again, but I believe that the same result will follow (no text visible).


The updated code compiles fine now, and it does load the font file. |> You're right that the result is the same though, no visible text showing...

I haven't worked with any of these libraries before, but my guess would be that Cairo is to blame. Maybe the conversion from Freetype doesn't work or it needs more initialisation? Is there a way to probe the cr_face object for details? I checked the cairo_text_extents during the text rendering and it reported a height of 0, which might be a clue?


----------



## Halda

Another weird thing happening when the text won't show up is that not all lines in the interface renders:







Some further tests show that if I disable all cairo_show_text calls in expose_waveform then the lines _will_ show up. So there's definitely something weird happening when trying to show text. 
I also noticed that the line width changes to 2.0 after the failed calls to cairo_show_text (instead of the expected 1.0).


----------



## contrate_wheel

Yep, only the lines drawn before the first call to *cairo_show_text*(). So apparently the first misbehaving *cairo_show_text*() messes up the cairo context, and from that moment on nothing else is drawn. This also explains the zero height, because probably everything cairo-related is just garbage. Font file corrupted? The md5 of mine is 37d8aff129ecd7d3fc495b7239f834db.

As an experiment I tried to set *cr_face* to *NULL* and, on debian, cairo just reverts to the default. Apparently *cairo_ft_font_face_create_for_ft_face*() is not supposed to ever return *NULL*, but there is a function *cairo_font_face_status(cairo_font_face *f)* that should check whether an error has occurred with *f*. Except for this, these objects seem to be pretty opaque. There is a function *cairo_font_extents*() that is more or less like *cairo_text_extents*(), however it works on the cairo context, not on the font face itself.

Thanks a lot for this...


----------



## Halda

contrate_wheel said:


> Font file corrupted? The md5 of mine is 37d8aff129ecd7d3fc495b7239f834db.


Yep, same md5 here. Font shows up fine in the OS inspectors too.










> As an experiment I tried to set *cr_face* to *NULL* and, on debian, cairo just reverts to the default.


I tried that too and it seems to revert to some default because now text shows up.

I also tested to use another random ttf file (from Microsoft) and it failed in the same way; no text shows up. Looks like something goes wrong with cairo_ft_font_face_create_for_ft_face()


----------



## Ticonderoga

Despite what sounds a lot like Chinese to me in this thread (I don't know much about computers and all), I have to say that this is about the coolest program I've seen in a while.

I wasn't even sure how to use the software, just unzipped, clicked on the nearest .exe file, ignored the Microsoft and Norton doom announcements and plugged in my mic.

Well, I don't have a mic, save for the one on the iPhone earphones:









And there you have it:









Too cool.

I just went through my entire watch-box and timed all of my watches.

All I did was loosen the band one notch and then slide the mic under the watch - between it's watchbox pillow and then slide it back on the pillow. Wedged between the watch and the pillow with the mic hole pressed against the watch back, just sit it down and watch the magic.

thanks


----------



## Apollonaught

Hi contrate-wheel,

I tested the program with Vista and the internal microphone,it works great!......








The watch i tested was an late 1940`s Accurist with unknown service history,my question is...........if the amplitude is too low in a given watch will it not show at the top of the screen,because after 5 min or so of testing i think i saw the amplitude reading twice and then it disappeared again,somewhere between 230-240?

Edit:Ok ,cool it has something to do with volume,i tried a watch with a louder tick and it shows the amplitude







Anyways,cool program.


----------



## contrate_wheel

@Apollonaught

Thanks for your review.

The figures on page 3 of this manual
http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Test and measuring technology mechanical watches.pdf
show how the noises produced by an escapement are supposed to look if recorded with a perfect mic. The amplitude is determined by the timing between the first and the third of the three events. The first watch of your screenshots is perfectly fine, however, as one can see from the graphs, the first pulse is too weak to stand out above the noise, so tg is unable to compute the amplitude. This happens only because you are using the internal mic of your computer, and, you might try, but I believe that no other publicly available program would perform better than tg in this situation. I would venture to say that here one can not extract the amplitude from the audio data, because this information has been completely destroyed by noise.

So, strictly speaking, it is not volume, rather it is signal-to-noise ratio. In your other watch, the first pulse is just about visible above the noise level, so tg can, and in fact does, pick it up.


----------



## Apollonaught

contrate_wheel said:


> @Apollonaught
> 
> Thanks for your review.
> 
> The figures on page 3 of this manual
> http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Test%20and%20measuring%20technology%20mechanical%20watches.pdf
> show how the noises produced by an escapement are supposed to look if recorded with a perfect mic. The amplitude is determined by the timing between the first and the third of the three events. The first watch of your screenshots is perfectly fine, however, as one can see from the graphs, the first pulse is too weak to stand out above the noise, so tg is unable to compute the amplitude. This happens only because you are using the internal mic of your computer, and, you might try, but I believe that no other publicly available program would perform better than tg in this situation. I would venture to say that here one can not extract the amplitude from the audio data, because this information has been completely destroyed by noise.
> 
> So, strictly speaking, it is not volume, rather it is signal-to-noise ratio. In your other watch, the first pulse is just about visible above the noise level, so tg can, and in fact does, pick it up.


Excellent,thank you.
That link explains everything.


----------



## adamant365

I might be a little slow, but I'm definitely not computer illiterate...but I can't get the application to run at all. I'm using Windows 7 Pro 64-bit and when I extract the files from the .ZIP, install the font, and attempt to run the program, nothing happens. I don't see any errors in the Windows error logs. I get a second or two of Windows "spinning wheel" but the program never launches. Could I be doing something wrong?


----------



## contrate_wheel

adamant365 said:


> I might be a little slow, but I'm definitely not computer illiterate...but I can't get the application to run at all. I'm using Windows 7 Pro 64-bit and when I extract the files from the .ZIP, install the font, and attempt to run the program, nothing happens. I don't see any errors in the Windows error logs. I get a second or two of Windows "spinning wheel" but the program never launches. Could I be doing something wrong?


Do not install the font: leave it where it is. Extract the zip archive to a folder. Do not move anything. Double click.


----------



## adamant365

Weird, I don't get it. I have it up and running on a very old Toshiba "test" laptop running Windows 10 and my work laptop running Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit and it's working just fine. My powerhouse desktop PC won't even launch it. Go figure.

EDIT: For what it's worth, it is a brilliant program. A million kudos to you contrate_wheel. My Omega Speedy Pro shows beautifully. When I switch to my Omega AT8500, I get everything but balance amplitude, but I expected this due to the co-axial escapement.

Does anyone know why the CoAx amplitude can't be derived with the standard timing algorithms?


----------



## contrate_wheel

adamant365 said:


> Weird, I don't get it. I have it up and running on a very old Toshiba "test" laptop running Windows 10 and my work laptop running Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit and it's working just fine. My powerhouse desktop PC won't even launch it. Go figure.


Thanks. So there is a bug! It might be this font thing: I will get rid of that, as it is producing nothing but annoyance. I made a Windows build with the latest version, which has a little of error reporting. May I ask you to try again with the new version (just re-downoad, version number should be 0.2.2) on that desktop computer and tell me the error message?


----------



## adamant365

contrate_wheel said:


> Thanks. So there is a bug! It might be this font thing: I will get rid of that, as it is producing nothing but annoyance. I made a Windows build with the latest version, which has a little of error reporting. May I ask you to try again with the new version (just re-downoad, version number should be 0.2.2) on that desktop computer and tell me the error message?


 I'm pretty sure the issue was that I didn't have a mic plugged in. Duh&#8230;your error reporting spotted this fact immediately and forced me to exit. I plugged in a mic and tried again and off she went. Brilliant! I don't think it was the font thing after all.


----------



## adamant365

Oh, and here's an obligatory screen shot. You think this 1860's pocket watch needs a service?? :-d








EDIT: I had the lift angle set at 38 previously to time my Co-Axial Omega. I think this old pocket watch is 50 degrees. Either way, 140 amplitude isn't very good.


----------



## contrate_wheel

adamant365 said:


> Oh, and here's an obligatory screen shot. You think this 1860's pocket watch needs a service?? :-d
> View attachment 6200929


Your audio looks very clean!

May it be that the nominal beat rate is not 18000 bph? If you know the correct bph, you can just write it in the bph field, even if it is not among those in the drop-down menu. Tg should be able to work with anything in the range 12000-72000.

I would love if you could send me a 30sec sample of your co-axial to play with...


----------



## dom_

I am late to this thread, mic wise are people using amplifiers or straight in?


----------



## adamant365

contrate_wheel said:


> Your audio looks very clean!
> 
> May it be that the nominal beat rate is not 18000 bph? If you know the correct bph, you can just write it in the bph field, even if it is not among those in the drop-down menu. Tg should be able to work with anything in the range 12000-72000.
> 
> I would love if you could send me a 30sec sample of your co-axial to play with...


Believe it or not, I'm using my never-used iPhone headset mic and just holding it tight against the case. And I'm certain the bph of that pocket watch is 18000. It loses like 5 minutes an hour. It's been non running and I only wound it to get a reading since it's by far my loudest watch. Here is about 45 seconds of my Omega with the calibre 8500 co-axial.


----------



## adamant365

I just got to thinking...you probably meant an actual sound recording. I've PM'd you.

By the way, back to my "clean sound." There's actually quite a bit of background noise in my recording. So I have to conclude your program is exceptional at eliminating noise.


----------



## dmnc

I too am having a font issue with OS X. 10.11.0 here.

Is there anything I can do to give you a hand in trying to sort it? I'm used to programming but not a C person I'm afraid.

I'll also have a look at popping together a homebrew formula so people can install a little more easily.


----------



## contrate_wheel

*@dom_*

Thanks for asking the mic question: I am interested too. I still have to experiment with the electronics. My gut feeling is that, if the signal is not exceedingly weak, no amp is better than a noisy amp. But that's just gut feeling.

* @dmnc*

Thank you, your offer is very much welcome! I am really keen on getting this thing to work cross-platform. I will probably just go back to the default font and align the figures manually: it's not pretty, but it works. The homebrew formula is an excellent idea. I will write to you as soon as I find the time to do that modification, so we can proceed...


----------



## bklake

I'm just a casual watch tinkerer, not a professional. I loaded the program and it worked fine on Win10. I didn't have a microphone plugged in at first so the program didn't launch. No error messages, just nothing on screen. Plug in your mic first. Plugged in an earbud headset and launched again. Everything works as advertised. I think the headset was a Motorola brand. I'm not getting the three distinct waves on the bottom screen but it was very noisy in my room. A lot of fan noise from computer and heating system. My computer allows me to adjust the mic input level. I need to play with that some more to get a good input level. 

So far, much better and useful than any program I've tried on my tablet. Keep up the good work. I tried this on 2 Seikos with the 4R36 movement. I now that these two watches are quieter than others. The tablet programs can't hear them and they works fine on a 7S26 watch. 

Hopefully I can provide some useful feedback from a novice user with few computer skills but full of enthusiasm. I think your stated goal was a useful program for people in my category. You are well on track. IOS version would be nice too. I go both ways on computers.


----------



## dmnc

I cobbled together something to make this a little easier to install for Mac users with homebrew.

If you just run



Code:


brew install dmnc/horology/tg --HEAD

You should get all the necessary dependencies and be good to go by just running "tg".


----------



## contrate_wheel

*Update:*

The latest version (0.2.3) should complie on OS X. Untested yet.
*Edit:* tested. And we have a nice install script. Thanks *dmnc*!

*@bklake*

Thanks for your commentary. I suspect that you didn't get any error message because you were not using the very latest version (this program has been updated quite frequently).

Yes, my goal is to make a program that can be used by a novice (a category I belong to) without offering a disappointing first experience, or being an unreliable, dumbed down black box.

Unfortunately I won't make a IOS (iPhone, iPad) version, because to develop for that platform one needs an Apple machine, and an Apple developer account (100$/year), and apps need to be approved by Apple before they can be distributed. In short, it does not make sense to develop for IOS unless you plan to make money out of it. In a distant future, I might attempt to experiment with Android. I guess that I should have used Qt from the get go anyway...


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

contrate_wheel said:


> The idea of using a clip-on guitar pickup suggested by *Klaus* in this thread sounds very very good to me. Unfortunately I didn't have time to experiment with that, but I most probably will. There is even the possibility that it might work without the amplifier: Klaus, did you try?


Well, I did try but failed getting a poor signal. The reason might be that the piezo is sensitive predominantly for solid-borne sound which is very low.

If anybody else is going to try the pickup the following might be usefull. I removed the foam rubber for better contact and covered the hole with an adhesive tape to reduce sound-pressure of ambient noise. No big effect for the tape, just as a matter of conscience.

Dynamic microphones didn't satisfy my needs completely but the sound processing of timegrapher is such good that the built-in microphone of a laptop will be enough for a rough shot.



adamant365 said:


> ...but I can't get the application to run at all. I'm using Windows 7 Pro 64-bit and when I extract the files from the .ZIP, install the font, and attempt to run the program, nothing happens. I don't see any errors in the Windows error logs. I get a second or two of Windows "spinning wheel" but the program never launches. Could I be doing something wrong?


I'm experiencing as well the issue with version 0.2.0 and 0.2.2 not starting anymore and "the spinning wheel" causing the explorer to stick. Maybe caused by some windows 10 or antivirus updates? The old version 1.0.0 (nov 5th) is still running perfectly.Restore Auto-Saved Content


----------



## contrate_wheel

Klaus Tickalot said:


> I'm experiencing as well the issue with version 0.2.0 and 0.2.2 not starting anymore and "the spinning wheel" causing the explorer to stick. Maybe caused by some windows 10 or antivirus updates? The old version 1.0.0 (nov 5th) is still running perfectly.Restore Auto-Saved Content


Thanks for reporting this bug!

Adamant's problem, as it turns out, was caused by his microphone not being plugged in when he started the program, so I don't think that yours is the same issue.

May I ask you to download version 0.2.3 (the very latest one), then try again, and tell me the result. This version differs from the previous one because I got rid of an annoying font issue which killed the OS X build. Your problem might be related to that. (Also the latest version has *amplitude* and is about 50% faster, so maybe you want to use it.)

I tried it now on a virtual machine with Windows 10 Enterprise (evaluation edition), no antivirus, and it did work.

I would greatly appreciate if *other Windows users* could give me a feedback on the latest testing version (0.2.3). Something like "Windows version, tg version: works / fails (failure mode, error message if any)." is more than enough.


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

contrate_wheel said:


> May I ask you to download version 0.2.3 (the very latest one), then try again, and tell me the result.


Windows 10 home + tg 0.2.3: spinning wheel, no entry in taskmanager but "tg.exe" in use, no message
Windows 10 home + tg 0.2.0: spinning wheel, no entry in taskmanager but "tg.exe" in use, no message (has been running perfectly a few days ago)
Windows 10 home + tg 0.1.0: running without problems (and very smooth on i7 laptop)
(just realizing that I do not have 0.2.2)

Win XP home SP3 + tg all versions: running without problems (just a bit overstressed :-D from USB-stick on netbook with Intel Atom b-))

Windows 7 64bit + tg all versions: running without problems (Pentium 4 dualcore)

Seems that the bug is on my Win10 (maybe after KB3116908, Java update, Flash update ...). 12-13-2015 --> some conflict with Avast Free Antivirus


----------



## Halda

I tried version 0.2.3 on Windows 10 Pro (version 1511) and it worked fine. The Microsoft LifeCam Cinema webcam picked up a signal after pressing the watch crystal against the microphone. :-!


----------



## WiZARD7

Thank you for that great software.
I've just bought a cheap piezo guitat pickup from ebay, plugged in my soundcard (esi maya44 pci), and it works. (win10 64bit)

However I've a Horometer, that shows very similar results, but with ~25-30 degree lower amplitude.
Can you modify beat error, to 2 digits?

Did anyone try this, with co-axial? Sometimes it jumps to the place, and shows some amplitude (I don't know whether correct, or not), I added green arrow, to show that. But most time it looks out of sync.
It is Omega 9300, the lift angle is 39.









9300 with amplitude:








5.5 yrs old Omega 1128 (2892-A2):








Longines L633 (2824-2)








Steinhart - ETA 2824-2


----------



## contrate_wheel

Thank you all! I didn't forget this thread, I just have a deadline tomorrow...

*Wizard*'s observations are very interesting, I will find the time to share some info on Saturday, hopefully. May I ask you to check my amplitude also against some other software (so we know that the signal is precisely the same). For instance you could use Watch-O-Scope or biburo, tg should be able to run in parallel with both.


----------



## WiZARD7

contrate_wheel said:


> *Wizard*'s observations are very interesting, I will find the time to share some info on Saturday, hopefully. May I ask you to check my amplitude also against some other software (so we know that the signal is precisely the same). For instance you could use Watch-O-Scope or biburo, tg should be able to run in parallel with both.


I've tried W-O-S, but didn't give stable readings. Biburo didn't even found the signal/soundcard 
I'll try them more on weekend.

The signal was the same, when I tried yesterday, as I've attached the piezo mic to the watch, and the Horometer to the crown at the same time.
Maybe I'll also try to make some videos.

(I'm also planning to make a diy mic amp, however I'm not sure it is needed, as I had fine results without it)

If you need any other help, measurement, picture or video, just ask, I'd like to help you in the development in this great software


----------



## WiZARD7

WiZARD7 said:


> I've tried W-O-S, but didn't give stable readings. Biburo didn't even found the signal/soundcard


I've made some new test.
Biburo is "working" fine, and maybe W-O-S will also work. But the signal level is too low for them. If I knock the mic with my hand, they show something.

Your software is working very nice, with the weak signal.

So I'll make an amplifier.


----------



## masbret

Awesome software, I regret getting my timegrapher now!
Thank you so much for doing this!


----------



## contrate_wheel

I'm back. Thank you all for participating to this thread!

*Windows 10 bug (@Klaus)* I tried to make all the updates to my virtual machine, but still I can not reproduce the bug. If someone else is experiencing the crash under Windows 10 please let me know, so we can try and track down the cause.
*
Amplitude (@Wizard)* I would like to understand what causes the error of 25-30 deg in amplitude that you report. Let's look at your Omega 1128 screenshot, which is very clean.









Here tg is detecting a little less than 7ms between the first pulse and the third pulse, indicated by the blue line. The formula to compute the amplitude from this time is well known









and it gives us a little more than 284 degrees, which is consistent with tg's reading (considering that the other pulse was a few tenths of millisecond shorter). In conclusion, the Horometer device must be detecting a time between the first and the third pulse which is at least one half of a millisecond longer, so at least 7.5ms. I see that that device has a very complete waveform display mode, may I ask you to observe the waveform of the Horometer and try to figure out where this difference is comming from?

*Beat error digits (@Wizard)* I believe that by "two digits" you mean adding the hundreths of milliseconds figure. Of course I could just print out that number, but it is basically a random digit: tg is just not capable of measuring beat error to that precision. I would argue, also, that it is not possible in general to measure beat error to the hundreth of a millisecond. Let me explain why. Beat error is given by the time between a tic and a toc (and a straightforward formula). Tics and tocs are not moments in time, they are indeed complicated sounds that take several milliseconds. So one needs to fix a reference point to say when in time a tic or a toc has happened. Geometrically the correct reference point is when the impulse jewel crosses the center line of the escapement. Unfortunately, there is no sound occurring at this precise moment, so we need to make do with some other, arbitrarily chosen, reference. As you can see from your screenshots, and the many others posted in this thread, the tics and tocs almost always differ by, say, one tenths of a millisecond in the relative position of their pulses. As a consequence any arbitrary reference point can not be expected to indicate the actual beat error to a better accuracy than about a tenth of a millisecond (just because choosing different references would produce indications that differ by about as much).

Which reference is used in practice? Well, my impression is that the most popular is the beginning, namely the first pulse. The reason appears to be of convenience, because with traditional methods, if the sound is good, this choice gives the most stable result. Tg's approach is to use the whole waveform as a reference and not any particular point on it, this produces a result very similar to using the third pulse as a reference, because that's where the lion's share of the energy is.

*Coaxial (@Wizard)* Tg's algorithm does not really work well with Daniel's coaxial escapement. In short: the rate is fine, the beat error is just an indication, the amplitude is garbage. Here is the problem: tg works under the assumption that the tics and the tocs have a similar waveform, which is of course not the case in coaxial escapements. The jumps that you see are tg trying to locate the third pulse of the waveform. Of course, we know that there is no such thing in a coaxial, but tg doesn't, so it gets confused and every now and then it changes it's mind about where the first and the third pulse are. Sometimes, tg might manage to convince itself that it is picking up a well defined first pulse and a well defined third pulse, so it displays a value of amplitude. The truth is that it is trying to understand a coaxial thinking that it is a lever, so whatever amplitude tg might show in this case has just no meaning at all.


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

contrate_wheel said:


> *Windows 10 bug (@Klaus)*


*solved *conflict with Avast Free Antivirus o| some kind of endless loop while program start
TG is working perfectly again (Win10 ver.1511)  |>


----------



## WiZARD7

contrate_wheel: I've even made a diy amp for the microphone, to improve this thing.
The biburo is not working for me, in windows10. It won't detect the beat, won't show any information, that can be used, although it can "hear" the watch.
The W-O-S is "working" but very unreliable. When it works it also shows 10-30 degrees smaller amplitude, but it frequently looses the signal. I don't know what is its problem. There is also difference in the beat error, between TG and WOS. Also the daily rate is fluctuate a lot with WOS.
Only the TG can lock on the signal reliable. 

Now I can't check with the Horometer, as it would be a Christmas gift from my wife, so I'll be able to check things with it next week 

I've made 2 videos, where TG and WOS is working side-by-side, and managed to capture a timeframe, where WOS didn't loose the signal. 
The first video is with the microphone amplifier, the second is without it, only the guitar pickup plugged in to the soundcards MIC-in. You can hear the volume level difference also.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwKbAzpjbaDORmltNXM3RG5aZG8/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwKbAzpjbaDOeUFsa0RCRHNRd1E/view?usp=sharing


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

@Wizard7 cool idea making video-screencaptures. |>

In my opinion there is a bit to much noise in your recording when you are using the amp (I made the same experience several times). 
TG is solving this issue with it's crazy good filtering algorythm. But in your first video one can see as well the noise in the graph. 
Biburo is not able to detect if it's a signal or if it's noise and has to surrender.

Here some points how I get rid of the noise, depending where it's based:
1. power supply: I first tryed a 5V wall power supply which produced a lot of 50Hz noise. So I switched over to a 9V battery (very effective)
2. grounded shield: as shown in the first picture of the thread, about 15 centimetre length taken from an old coax-cable around the pickup-cable and as an extension the red cable which I can easily grab or even more comfortable just step on with my foot :-d (very effective and you see the difference immediately grabbing it or let it hang loose)
3. amplification (computer): give it a try to play with the amplification of the internal soundcard. For me +12dB and about 30% volume for soundrecording is comfortable (if the battery is getting weak I switch to higher amplification), drawback: higher values will amp as well the noise (basic)
4. amplification (external amp): same as before, mine has two potentiometers (Conrad 197688 one for amplification the other for load voltage) trimming those two potentiometers is very important for a good signal to noise ratio (basic)

for both amplification methods I use biburo to adjust to a combination of good soundsignal and low noise level. Noise then is just a few millimetres (about 1/3 of the signalgraph see picture in post #19  or even less when testing loud vintage watches)

If you give it a try and at least modify 3 and 4 your biburo should work fine as well and you will be able to compare ratio, amplitude and repere/beat error of different timing programms.
Very happy for any feedback and discussion.

*@contrate-wheel again many thanks for the TG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is the greatest Christmas gift for the low-budget hobbyist *:-!


----------



## WiZARD7

Klaus Tickalot said:


> In my opinion there is a bit to much noise in your recording when you are using the amp (I made the same experience several times).
> TG is solving this issue with it's crazy good filtering algorythm. But in your first video one can see as well the noise in the graph.
> Biburo is not able to detect if it's a signal or if it's noise and has to surrender.
> 
> Here some points how I get rid of the noise, depending where it's based:
> 1. power supply: I first tryed a 5V wall power supply which produced a lot of 50Hz noise. So I switched over to a 9V battery (very effective)
> 2. grounded shield: as shown in the first picture of the thread, about 15 centimetre length taken from an old coax-cable around the pickup-cable and as an extension the red cable which I can easily grab or even more comfortable just step on with my foot :-d (very effective and you see the difference immediately grabbing it or let it hang loose)
> 3. amplification (computer): give it a try to play with the amplification of the internal soundcard. For me +12dB and about 30% volume for soundrecording is comfortable (if the battery is getting weak I switch to higher amplification), drawback: higher values will amp as well the noise (basic)
> 4. amplification (external amp): same as before, mine has two potentiometers (Conrad 197688 one for amplification the other for load voltage) trimming those two potentiometers is very important for a good signal to noise ratio (basic)
> 
> for both amplification methods I use biburo to adjust to a combination of good soundsignal and low noise level. Noise then is just a few millimetres (about 1/3 of the signalgraph see picture in post #19  or even less when testing loud vintage watches)
> 
> If you give it a try and at least modify 3 and 4 your biburo should work fine as well and you will be able to compare ratio, amplitude and repere/beat error of different timing programms.


Thanks.

I'm running it from 9V battery.
All cables are shielded, and the circuit is in a metal box, also connected to the shield.
I'm not using any extra gain on computer side, I can only lower it from 0dB. (it doesn't help)
Mine has 1 potentiometer, I've tried fine tuning with it, but didn't really help  ( Building a Microphone Amplifier - Watch Timing System I've made this amp)
(I'm not a pro in, so I don't know how to tweak it, I could just make the soldering, and PCB...)

However it is sure, that TG has a really good noise filtering algorithm.


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## adamant365

Klaus Tickalot said:


> *@contrate-wheel again many thanks for the TG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is the greatest Christmas gift for the low-budget hobbyist *:-!


Cheers to this statement! I've purchased three movements to begin my hobby...a NOS ETA 6498 (most $), a "used" 6498 (much less $), and a Seagull ST36 (6497 clone...least $). I can tell straight away that the NOS ETA6498 and the Seagull 6497 clone are in good shape although could use some regulation. The "used" 6498 has about 30-40 degrees less amplitude than the new 6498 and is -20 s/day dial up and -55 s/day dial down and 4 ms beat error in all positions so I can already tell it will need a service. I stumbled upon this thread before I even have tools (Christmas present from wife hopefully..lol) and I'm glad I did. It will be interesting to see the results I get when I'm X months down the road and do a full service on the used 6498. A great way to test my new skills.

Anyway, thanks a million to contrate-wheel for the hard work! This is the PERFECT timing solution to the hobbyist looking to keep associated costs down. Tools are expensive enough without spending several hundred dollars on a timing machine. Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to all!


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## contrate_wheel

Hi all, sorry for not being very active lately...

*Amplifiers: I still have to experiment, so take what I write with a pinch of salt.* In short, Klaus used the Conrad kit no. 197688, a schematic can be found here, and Wizard used the amplifier designed by Stefan Vorkoetter for Watch-O-Scope, instructions here. Judging only by the results and the schematics, so no first-hand experience for now, my advice is to *go for the Conrad* circuit.

Why? Let's look at a spectrogram taken from a recording of Klaus









and compare it to one of Wizard's samples









On the vertical axis we have frequencies, on the horizontal axis we have time. Color represents intensity: from high to low is red, blue, gray. The vertical red streaks are the sounds of the watch (I zoomed in so the window is about one tic-toc wide). As one can see, in Wizard's sample there is no sound content at all above 11KHz. The W-O-S amplifier, in fact, is DESIGNED to filter everything above 11KHz quite aggressively. The instructions page says "to reduce high frequency background noise", however I disagree on this choice. It's enough to look at Klaus's spectrogram to see that the upper half of the spectrum is actually the cleanest, and it contains some very good signal. Klaus's sample also has much less noise. On a side note, unless clipping occurs, digital filters beat most hardware hands down, so, unless you have a compelling reason to filter in hardware, don't do it.

About mains hum, it's definitely there in Wizard's audio.









And, what is worse, there are all odd-numbered harmonics of 50Hz up to 1050Hz. I don't know where it mght come from, but I don't see any obvious problem in the design of the amplifier. This noise should not affect much tg, because it filters out everything below 3KHz, however I used a rather bland filter. I believe that W-O-S filters this out too, don't know which kind of filter, but in the settings window you can configure the threshold. Biburo, unfortunately, might not have any band-pass filtering.

Again, don't take this post to seriously, because *I don't have first-hand experience*. I promise to experiment and share some info in the future.


----------



## WiZARD7

contrate_wheel: Your analysis is not perfect, maybe my recording is to blame.
I've checked it with Audacity, and it is not cut at that much at 11K.
But yes, there is the hum, I don't know why. It is in a metal box, connected to shield, I'm using shielded cables  (if you have any idea, how to kill it, let me know)

Maybe I'll try the conrad type, when I have time.


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## contrate_wheel

Right, probably the sharp drop was caused also by the encoding/decoding. Anyway there is quite a difference between the bottom half and the upper half of your spectrogram, and this is most definitely a consequence of the filters in the amplifier (there are three of them). Anyway it should be *easy to disable* the low pass filters: you just have to remove C2, C4, and C6. It should not compromise the stability of the circuit: if Stefan is reading, can you confirm? To stay on the safe side, maybe first leave C2 in place.

I have no idea about the hum. I would suspect a faulty ground connection, but I'm sure that you already tested this sort of things...

On the positive side, as long as you use tg and probably W-O-S, I don't think that the hum will affect your results by much.


----------



## WiZARD7

contrate_wheel said:


> Right, probably the sharp drop was caused also by the encoding/decoding. Anyway there is quite a difference between the bottom half and the upper half of your spectrogram, and this is most definitely a consequence of the filters in the amplifier (there are three of them). Anyway it should be *easy to disable* the low pass filters: you just have to remove C2, C4, and C6. It should not compromise the stability of the circuit: if Stefan is reading, can you confirm? To stay on the safe side, maybe first leave C2 in place.
> 
> I have no idea about the hum. I would suspect a faulty ground connection, but I'm sure that you already tested this sort of things...


I've removed C4, C6. It can be seen in Audacity, that it works, the is not as sharp drop, as there was before.
However there is a lot of noise in the higher frequencies, so in all it became worse, and even TG is not as stable as before, with this setup.


----------



## LCheapo

I'm trying to run the pre-built binary on windows7, and I get "Error opening audio input: Unanticipated host error". Just to see whether the system can find a microphone, I ran Skype, which works fine. How old are the prebuilts? The link does not give me any choices, and github doesn't seem to have them. I tried compatibility mode for XP SP2, but that doesn't help either. Trying to build under OS X just turned into a huge waste of time. (There seems to be something odd with the specification of the ffwt3 library.)

Update: just having a microphone connected is not enough, it also has to be the default audio source. Windows 7 seems to work. I'll try Halda's OS X build next. Thanks for the quick reply!


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## Halda

LCheapo said:


> Trying to build under OS X just turned into a huge waste of time. (There seems to be something odd with the specification of the ffwt3 library.)


For OS X the instructions and binary here will work.


----------



## WiZARD7

I've made a small video comparing TG and my Horometer.


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## dmnc

LCheapo said:


> Trying to build under OS X just turned into a huge waste of time. (There seems to be something odd with the specification of the ffwt3 library.)


Did you use the homebrew version of fftw?

If you install homebrew from Homebrew - The missing package manager for OS X then it should be as simple as a "brew install dmnc/horology/tg".

If you still have problems, let me know which OS version you are on. All working ok for me here on 10.11.2.


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## LCheapo

Actually, yesterday I tried following the recipe for using brew exclusively, but brew update fails with some dyld issue and Xcode complaint. I verified Xcode is installed with command line tools, but there must some interaction with software installed using other systems. Too bad these porting/installation helpers like fink or brew all insist on reinventing the wheel, instead of installing in a standard or at least compatible way.
I'm running 10.9. Is there a way to clean up the path just for brew (I.e. make it work without obliterating other installs)?

Update: it finally worked, after obliterating /opt/local and allowing brew to overwrite the links for portaudio and fftw. (I decided that it's unlikely I installed something important on this machine.) Couldn't find either fink nor macports on this machine, so the conflicting stuff must have been from manual installs. 

Now of course it turns out none of the microphones I have provide a suitable input for reliable operation.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Hi all, sorry for deserting this thread so long, and happy new year to all!

*@LCheapo:* I'm happy that the recipe prepared by *dmnc* finally worked. It's a pity if none of your mics turns out to be good enough. If it so happens, you might consider sending me some sample of your best audio, this will help me in future improvements of the algorithm. Thanks, anyway, for considering my program!

*@Wizard:* Thanks for your video. I've tried to find the cause of the difference in the amplitude, but I failed at that. As we noticed already there is quite a bit of noise in the audio, plus some produced by the codec. This turns out to be too much to analyze the audio either manually or with Watch-O-Scope or Watch Escapement Analyzer. The waveform detected by tg seems to give little room for doubt, but it results from a moderately complicated process of filtering and integration, and, without comparison with any more direct method, it's hard to say anything. In your video with WOS, as you noticed I believe, the outputs of WOS are just swinging around haphazardly: unfortunately the audio is clearly too noisy for WOS to detect even the rate.

_By the way, for any software or hardware, the order of how difficult it is to get these numbers is the same: from easiest to hardest (namely from less noise-sensitive to more noise-sensitive) they are rate, beat error, amplitude. So one should not trust one of these results unless the easier ones are stable and trustworthy._

The Horometer graph looks roughly consistent with the graphs determined by tg (I take this picture from your video)









However one pixel on the Horometer screen is 0.625ms wide, and we are looking here for a half-millisecond discrepancy. It can not be seen clearly just because it's less than one pixel wide. The Horometer is also telling us only half of it's story, because it draws a vertical marker where it detects the first pulse (the vertical line at 20ms), but it does not tell us where it detects the third pulse, so it's hard to understand what it does. All the interesting action in this graph takes place between the 20ms and the 30ms mark. If you could zoom in this section, it would be interesting to compare tg's waveforms with the Horometer's ones. Thanks again for your support!

*@all:* If anyone else experiences the same error in the amplitude, I am highly interested in sorting this problem out, so any feedback on this issue would be appreciated.


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## Roli-poli

Firstly, I'd like to thank Contrate_wheel for this program which seems very interesting as it seems to work great according to some testimonials here. And I would like to help if I can providing examples.

But first I need it run on my OS X and also find a suitable microphone, latter which will pose no problem I guess.

I'd like to ask for some help to run/compile the program. So far I've followed the page 3 instructions: installed xcode, then homebrew, then installed: fftw, gtk+, portaudio (these come up via command: brew list). I've downloaded the full source code 'tg-master' folder to my 'users/username/downloads' folder. But when I do the command whilst being in directory 'Users/username': 'brew install downloads/tg', I get the following error:

Error: No similarly named formulae found.
*==>** Searching taps...*
Error: No formulae found in taps.

Same with commands: 'brew install /users/username/downloads/tg-master' or 'brew install ~/downloads/tg'

When I do command: 'brew install downloads/tg-master/tg, I will get the following though:


*==>** Tapping downloads/tg-master*
Cloning into '/usr/local/Library/Taps/downloads/homebrew-tg-master'...
Username for 'https://github.com':

But I guess that is not the desired route.

I am very much unfamiliar with commando's and such, and have tried to search for answers online, but after many hours looking and trying I just decided to post my problem as there might be others too who encountered this problem. Also, everyone here seems to be glad to help and some apparently very knowledgable around these technical matters 

The precompiled version of Halda does work btw. But I'd like to be able to get future versions of contrite_wheel working, which also now have the reset and clear option extra I believe.

I'm running Yosemite 10.10.5. If there is any information needed to help troubleshoot, I will gladly supply it of course.

Many thanks in advance.


----------



## Halda

Roli-poli said:


> I am very much unfamiliar with commando's and such, and have tried to search for answers online, but after many hours looking and trying I just decided to post my problem as there might be others too who encountered this problem.


You're almost there! In Terminal, simply go to the directory where the downloaded source code is (by using the *cd* command). Then enter the command *make*.

This should invoke the compiler and produce the executable for you. Good luck!


----------



## Roli-poli

Halda said:


> You're almost there! In Terminal, simply go to the directory where the downloaded source code is (by using the *cd* command). Then enter the command *make*.
> 
> This should invoke the compiler and produce the executable for you. Good luck!


Halda, many thanks. I now have an executable and working program on OS X! Regret the work I have put in getting a newer Bash shell working, resulting temporarily in a non-working Terminal. All is well now and have the newer Bash shell available if needed.

As soon as I have a mic, I'll start playing around with it and will see if I can get some useful examples to post here. Shame I threw my broken earphones recently which had a mic I never used, oh well...

Keep on the fine work!!


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## Halda

If you don't have a microphone yet but still want to try out tg on your Mac there are tools that will allow you to route the audio from other apps into a "virtual microphone" so you can for example play a YouTube clip of a ticking watch and have tg analyze that audio as if it was coming from a microphone.

There's an old free app called Soundflower that allows you to do that, and also a brand new one (but not free) called Loopback.


----------



## contrate_wheel

*@Roli-poli*: I'm happy to hear that you managed to compile tg.

*For other OS X user*, it is better to point out that there is a little confusion in the operations that Roli-poli attempted. To use the homebrew formula prepared by *dmnc*, as far as I can understand not being a mac user, the correct sequence of operations is

*step 1* - install homebrew as indicated in *[url]http://brew.sh*[/URL]

*step 2* - run *brew doctor* and do everything it asks of you

*step 3* - run the magic command: *brew install dmnc/horology/tg --HEAD*

And this is it. No other step whatsoever is required.

Edit: corrected the list of steps as indicated by dmnc.


----------



## Roli-poli

contrate_wheel said:


> *@Roli-poli*: I'm happy to hear that you managed to compile tg.
> 
> *For other OS X user*, it is better to point out that there is a little confusion in the operations that Roli-poli attempted. To use the homebrew formula prepared by *dmnc*, as far as I can understand not being a mac user, the correct sequence of operations is
> 
> *step 1* - install homebrew as indicated in *Homebrew - The missing package manager for OS X*
> 
> *step 2* - run the magic command: *brew install dmnc/horology/tg --HEAD*
> 
> And this is it. No other step whatsoever is required. Please correct me if I am wrong...


Well step 1 should be installing Xcode (if not already) via Macstore>developer tools, or through commando. Next indeed homebrew, but I understood also some dependencies (if that's the correct term), namely: gkt+, ffth, portaudio. This can be done through 'homebrew', through commando in terminal: brew install gtk+ portaudio fftw
Then, or earlier, you have to download of course your full source code files which come in the folder: tg-master
Instead of the 'brew install..'-method, the following method worked for me with, where you use the path to the tg-master-folder as the path for the for the 1st of the following 2 commando's: 
1: cd /users/username/downloads/tg-master (note that path is an example, just as dmnc/horology/tg was)
2: make
Now, there should be 2 new files in folder tg-master.

I have also tried 'brew install .../tg --HEAD', as also without the '--HEAD', but then homebrew couldn't find anything. Probably I have done something wrong, as it worked for others, but the above mentioned method worked for me.

Also, I don't really know what Homebrew does, or what Xcode exactly brings to table, and if they are indeed needed, or just more practical. Not asking for this information either by the by b-)


----------



## Roli-poli

Halda said:


> If you don't have a microphone yet but still want to try out tg on your Mac there are tools that will allow you to route the audio from other apps into a "virtual microphone" so you can for example play a YouTube clip of a ticking watch and have tg analyze that audio as if it was coming from a microphone.
> 
> There's an old free app called Soundflower that allows you to do that, and also a brand new one (but not free) called Loopback.


Thanks for the tips, but am planning to get some 'real world examples' . Cheap clip on mic will be ordered tomorrow. I did however tried it already for just a quick test on the integrated mic on my laptop and, believe it or not, through the mic on a toy Sega I-Dog, but this was done on Windows Vista machine. Too much noise in both quick tests I gathered quickly (was noisy).


----------



## Roli-poli

Roli-poli said:


> Thanks for the tips, but am planning to get some 'real world examples' . Cheap clip on mic will be ordered tomorrow. I did however tried it already for just a quick test on the integrated mic on my laptop and, believe it or not, through the mic on a toy Sega I-Dog, but this was done on Windows Vista machine. Too much noise in both quick tests I gathered quickly (was noisy).


Funnily enough I just found out that I've tried using the light sensor on the toy as a mic, and not the actual mic which is 10cm below the light sensor. So, even despite a noisy laptop in vicinity and the clock not being near the mic, it locked on for a moment


----------



## dmnc

contrate_wheel said:


> *For other OS X user*, it is better to point out that there is a little confusion in the operations that Roli-poli attempted. To use the homebrew formula prepared by *dmnc*, as far as I can understand not being a mac user, the correct sequence of operations is
> 
> *step 1* - install homebrew as indicated in *[url]http://brew.sh*[/URL]
> 
> *step 2 *- run *brew doctor* and do everything it asks of you
> 
> *step 3* - run the magic command: *brew install dmnc/horology/tg --HEAD*
> 
> And this is it. No other step whatsoever is required. Please correct me if I am wrong...


I have made a small addition here as it seems there is some confusion about xcode/dev tools. If homebrew hasn't already warned you, *brew doctor* will tell you if you are missing anything on your system and give instructions for how to sort it out, but it's usually as simple as *xcode-select --install* to get dev tools on the newer versions of OS X. You shouldn't have to worry about downloading all of xcode just to get make.

The homebrew formula will deal with the gtk+, ffth etc. dependencies for you so you shouldn't have to worry about any of that.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Thanks dmnc, I will edit my previous post with your correction.


----------



## beastomaniac

How accurate measurements have you got with this software? I've been using it for about 3 months and it seems to be very good, but are those readings close to professional timegraphers measurements?

What kind of microphones have you used, what's the cheapest one to use with this software? I have a DIY measurement microphone with pre amplifier but it's quite big and cumbersome...


----------



## Halda

beastomaniac said:


> How accurate measurements have you got with this software? I've been using it for about 3 months and it seems to be very good, but are those readings close to professional timegraphers measurements?


The calculations are probably as accurate as "professional" timers, at least for the rate and beat error values. There might be some disparity with the amplitude calculations at the moment. If so, it will probably be fixed. It's a new feature and still in beta after all.

However, there's no calibration implemented yet. So the accuracy of the numbers you get will depend on how well your sound card performs.


----------



## Fred.S

Hi, 
I like the software very good signal detection, Im using it with a microphone from a L&R tickoprint t45, without amplification I just soldered a shielded cable to it and plugged it in my USB sound card. I think it's too good to be true, because when I use Delph escapement analyzer, it doesn't produce a good result, maybe I'll try an amplifier and I need to calibrate the sound card time or frequency, I don't know how, I tried to look it up but all the articles I found are complicated to follow, if someone knows a method, please share it with us, I think it would be very helpful.

One thing I would like from the developer is to add the ability to record audio to check it on other timing as well, taking advantage of the filtering quality.

I posted pictures of my setup.

Thank you WUS.


----------



## jappa

Needed to say thanks for this awesome software! It worked well with my ordinary mic but ordered $5 clip on contact microphone from eBay and it's even better.

Anyways, could somebody post graph from well working 1861 so I could compare? I am a bit worried if I should get my Speedmaster serviced. I bought it few months ago from watchmaker and he said there's no need for service as amplitude is >270 degrees. It was, at the beginning even though bet rate was out-of-spec (something like +15s/d). After few months beat rate is actually better (+10s/d or so), but amplitude looks funny... tg won't even show amplitude anymore, I think difference between tics and tocs are too big? Other value would be 240 degrees and other 300 degrees... Average would be exactly 270 degrees, but is this big difference between tics and tocs ok? I have zero idea...


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## beastomaniac

Here's a graph of my 2004 Speedmaster with similar movement (cal. 1863).


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## Klaus Tickalot

jappa said:


> ... but is this big difference between tics and tocs ok? I have zero idea...


Hi Jappa,
did you try to connect the clip to the crown or at least the mic to the caseback if you got a plexi?
Sometimes - depending on the watchcase - I'm experiencing as well some kind of echo which confuses TG as well as biburo or WOS. 
In case of a very quiet watch I connect directly to a save place e.g. crown wheel or a stable bridge.

Just clip it to the right place and timegrapher will do its magic b-)b-)b-)b-)b-)


----------



## adamant365

In regards to the accuracy of the measurement: I just did a test and got an interesting result. I found 300 BPM (18000 BPH), 420 BPM (25200 BPH), and 480 BPM (28800 BPH) click tracks on youtube. They were all produced by the same user. Every one of them was showing exactly +33 s/day on TG. I can only assume that the software used to create these tracks was slightly off in their calculations introducing this error. In addition, using TG to measure the rate of my Speedmaster Pro in crown down position gives a result of +1.0 s/day. The observed time difference of the watch from 24 hours ago until now: 0.2 seconds fast. The reason it is +1.0 now is due to the slight increase in rate due to drop in amplitude from the watch being less wound.

I would say it's safe to assume the accuracy of this app is going to be well within 1 s/day, probably even better than that. I would also say the instantaneous measure of rate by TG is going to be way more consistent (precise) than manually measuring the rate after a 24 hour rest in any position.

I can't say this enough...but VERY well done!


----------



## jappa

Hmm I am unable to get good graph using tg... But I am starting to really think that service is now necessary. I listened recording made using piezo mic and theres some extra noise, kling kling kling on some positions... Check this out:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tavp9t1nz2cbp6t/speedynoise.mp3?dl=0

I am rotating watch to different positions starting from 10 sec and sometims extra kling kling kling is heard. I know nothing about watch movements but I assume this is not normal. What do you say?


----------



## adamant365

jappa said:


> Hmm I am unable to get good graph using tg... But I am starting to really think that service is now necessary. I listened recording made using piezo mic and theres some extra noise, kling kling kling on some positions... Check this out:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/tavp9t1nz2cbp6t/speedynoise.mp3?dl=0
> 
> I am rotating watch to different positions starting from 10 sec and sometims extra kling kling kling is heard. I know nothing about watch movements but I assume this is not normal. What do you say?


I'm no expert, but that does not sound normal. It's almost like the balance is hitting something...i.e. doesn't have enough clearance. Is there a dramatic decrease in amplitude when the pinging begins??


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## Klaus Tickalot

jappa said:


> kling kling kling


... is the sound of the hairspring which seems to be dirty (minimal amount of oil) and probably sticking short time at the pins of the regulator. Adhesion ends when the balance travelled a few degrees after zero crossing, the hairspring abruptly unsticks and this will cause an extra (bad) vibration. You can even see this under the loupe.
You should visit you watchmaker to clean the hairspring as a gesture of goodwill.


----------



## saltddirk

I just stumbled upon this thread and of course I had to download and play with it!
Although I have no, but absolutely no idea of what I am looking at, this is a fantastic piece of software, Well i managed to get the data from my only mechanical watch that I have with me.
I have learned an awful lot in the hour or so that it took me to read through the thread and the links provided.
For a complete NOOB as me, while I get the visual representation of the Tick and tock on the right, what is the graph on the left showing?

As we are all more or less serial hoarders it would be great to have an user input field on the right in the title so that you can personalize the graph with let say the watch name before taking a screen shot and save it for future reference

I tested the SW on a Windows 7 with my Logitech skype headset and on the laptop which runs Win 8.1 with the Bose quiet -something- phone headset. Both worked great, although I got the impression that the signal pick up was more stable on the laptop.

Thanks for all the hard work!

D


----------



## jappa

Klaus Tickalot said:


> ... is the sound of the hairspring which seems to be dirty (minimal amount of oil) and probably sticking short time at the pins of the regulator. Adhesion ends when the balance travelled a few degrees after zero crossing, the hairspring abruptly unsticks and this will cause an extra (bad) vibration. You can even see this under the loupe.
> You should visit you watchmaker to clean the hairspring as a gesture of goodwill.


I went to watchmaker and he said that movement is in excellent shape and full service would not do any good, could do the opposite. Only thing was that balance wheel or something was not centered or something like that, he suspected that there has been slight impact or something... He tinkered around with it a bit and no more extra sounds, and, well take a look at yourself...

I would say that this is pretty good for 15 year old movement designed 50 years ago, huh? Though in real life there is positional differences but anyways, much better than before. He did not charge anything even though I tried to pay...


----------



## eeki

Thanks for the effort developing the software, just used homebrew to compile the OS X -version and it works well enough even with a simple headphone mic:









One small suggestion however - it seems that the software does not allow for decimals in the lift angle, would it be possible to change this? Many older Seiko calibers have lift angles of 54.5 (as the 6117 above) and one even has a lift angle of 52.36 (cal 6159), so if it would be possible to use two decimals it would be nice.

Also, it might be helpful to include the Mac OS instructions already in the first post - this topic is getting a bit lengthy and the search functions on the forum are not exactly ideal for searching within topics. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## contrate_wheel

Hi my friends!

Thanks for the suggestions, I just wanted to tell you that I have not disappeared, I just had a lot of work in the past months. There are new versions of tg to come: I have parallelized the algorithm, which makes it much snappier on multi core machines, and a fellow named *wahlstedt* on GitHub has made improvements to the user interface.

A *question*: does anyone prefer the tg-lt version to the regular one?


----------



## adamant365

contrate_wheel said:


> Hi my friends!
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions, I just wanted to tell you that I have not disappeared, I just had a lot of work in the past months. There are new versions of tg to come: I have parallelized the algorithm, which makes it much snappier on multi core machines, and a fellow named *wahlstedt* on GitHub has made improvements to the user interface.
> 
> A *question*: does anyone prefer the tg-lt version to the regular one?


I only ever use the TG version. I don't use tg-lt at all. Is the new version available or is it "coming soon?"


----------



## Deafboy

Hi,
I'm new to this forum. I used this very nice software on several of my watches with good success. It really works well. I'm impressed how it digs the watch beat signal from ambient noise (does it use some kind of synchronous filtering?). Anyway, I have a request. I also would like measure the beat of a pendulum clock to analyze escapement characteristics. A major difference is that beat time is 1 beat per second, which equates to 3600 beats an hour. The current software seems limited to, I think, about 11000 bph. Can you modify the software to have this extended range?

Michel


----------



## ChrisTheEngineer

contrate_wheel said:


> Hi my friends!
> 
> A *question*: does anyone prefer the tg-lt version to the regular one?


I use the tg-lt version on an old win xp box. I expect it is extra bother to make two versions, so I would understand if it went away.


----------



## Deafboy

contrate_wheel said:


> A *question*: does anyone prefer the tg-lt version to the regular one?


Regular for me.


----------



## masbret

I use the regular version as well. 

Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk


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## bklake

I tried the lite version just to see if it worked. My newest computer, i5 WIN10, has more than enough horsepower to run the regular version. My old computer has more audio inputs and I may want to use this computer in my search for the perfect microphone. I don't think it has enough memory or horsepower to run the regular version.


----------



## Snakepottery

Just run the software on my Mac. (Thanks for making it easy Dnmc), loaded up a treat and works well.
I purchased a great watch microphone, probably a piezo device, which is effective.

Can I just ask what is probably a stupid question, I'm unclear what it is I'm looking at! The top bar is obvious, beat error, amplitude and timing. To the left is the conventional paper type reading. But there are two other panes, I guess they are the tic toks? These panes are marked as milliseconds and degrees? And the blue line that varies in position?
I could ignore it all and just take the readings, but I would like to be able to "read" properly what is on the screen, would be very useful in diagnosing escapement problems.

A fabulous piece of software, really good!

Snake




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## messyGarage

Thank you contrate_wheel for your awesome work

just what I was looking for

I'm on Kubuntu 15.04 amd64, it compiles fine and runs very well with the integrated mic of my laptop.

ordered a LM741 based amp and piezo mics to build a testing stand.


----------



## dmnc

I just use the regular version, but I have now updated the homebrew formula to install tg-lt also, in case someone wants to try that on Mac.

I am having an irritating problem though. I wonder contrate_wheel if you could help with.

When I try to use a mono microphone (a piezoelectric) I get this error:



> Error opening audio input: Invalid number of channels


Is that coming from tg itself or one of it's dependencies do you know? I've done a bit of Googling but can't work out where the problem is.


----------



## Halda

dmnc said:


> When I try to use a mono microphone (a piezoelectric) I get this error


This is caused by tg requesting a stereo input source. It looks like it can be fixed by having tg ask for a mono input instead since it doesn't seem to actually use the stereo data.


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## dmnc

Halda said:


> This is caused by tg requesting a stereo input source. It looks like it can be fixed by having tg ask for a mono input instead since it doesn't seem to actually use the stereo data.


I've had a dig around int he source but with no luck here. If I ask for just 1 channel (either by checking the number available or forcing it) I get no signal whatsoever. C is not my language in the slightest and I've never used PortAudio so I'm stumbling in the dark a bit here.

I'll raise an issue on GitHub and add a bit of detail.


----------



## beastomaniac

Snakepottery said:


> Just run the software on my Mac. (Thanks for making it easy Dnmc), loaded up a treat and works well.
> I purchased a great watch microphone, probably a piezo device, which is effective.


Do you have a link for your microphone? I'm searching one for me.


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## dmnc

I don't really have a recommendation. I have a couple of super cheap ones off the bay I've been experimenting with. Order by price + postage and you'll find them. 

They're mostly sold as guitar pickups.

So far I've experimented with the clip on style. It definitely seems an improvement over the microphone on the side of my MacBook. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Halda

dmnc said:


> If I ask for just 1 channel (either by checking the number available or forcing it) I get no signal whatsoever.


You also need to change some other Portaudio parts that handle the incoming signal. The code currently assumes two channels and will generate garbled data if just fed mono. Easy enough to fix, but perhaps contrate_wheel will chime in with the best way to do it in case the algorithm also relies on stereo data.


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## evilphoton

awesome software contrate_wheel!!!
here it is running on Wine, I hadn't seen this mentioned in the thread. just set the watch right on the mic. works a little better with a towel a hand on the watch. tg can hear the seiko though the case, leaning against the monitor, e.g. 9 up. mic turned all the way up with ambient noise reduction on for the mac (mid-2009). 
my dad's GP


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## watchuseektom

Sorry for what can seem like a silly question: how do you install this on mac? I have read the previous posts, installed homebrew, but I am not a sotware programmer and am not well versed in coding/termal commands etc. A simple 'how to install' would be awsome for us computer illiterate mac users out there!

Thanks for the super software!



evilphoton said:


> awesome software contrate_wheel!!!
> here it is running on Wine, I hadn't seen this mentioned in the thread. just set the watch right on the mic. works a little better with a towel a hand on the watch. tg can hear the seiko though the case, leaning against the monitor, e.g. 9 up. mic turned all the way up with ambient noise reduction on for the mac (mid-2009).
> my dad's GP
> View attachment 7351858


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## Snakepottery

There is a precise install instructions for Mac a page or two back. It was very straightforward and worked for me first time. Just follow the step be step guide.
I'm no programmer either but had no issues.

Snake


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## watchuseektom

After a whole afternoon installing homewbrew to install wine, to have wine fail at installing tg, I went back to the steps a few pages back and apparently installed tg successfully. Now my quesiton is: where is the program? Nothing in my apps or library folders... anything special to open the program?



Snakepottery said:


> There is a precise install instructions for Mac a page or two back. It was very straightforward and worked for me first time. Just follow the step be step guide.
> I'm no programmer either but had no issues.
> 
> Snake
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well, I have apparently installed wine, entered command $ open ~/.wine/drive_c/Program\ Files then put all the files in the tg folder in system 32 folder, entered wine tg.exe and here I am with tg opened. Magic. Now to get to work!

EDIT, here's what I was able to get with a 1975 Omega speedmaster:










And a 1980 Seiko turtle:









Awesome software!


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## pbnelson

*Installing & running native on Linux Mint (Ubuntu)*

Cool software!

For linux users, I got this running on my HP Envy laptop running Linux Mint 17.1 (Ubuntu 14.04). No fooling around with WINE, just a nice, native program.

Here are the installation instructions that worked for me. I say "worked for me" because there may have been other necessary development packages that I'd already installed. In any case, it was as simple as...

from a terminal window (command line)

to build it:


sudo apt-get install libgtk2.0-dev # install various packages needed for the program compilation
sudo apt-get install libjack-jackd2-dev # the order of installation is important
sudo apt-get install portaudio19-dev # because libjack must be installed before portaudio
sudo apt-get install libfftw3-dev
sudo apt-get install git # this is just to download the source
cd # go to home directory
git clone [email protected]:vacaboja/tg.git # just downloads the source from https://github.com/vacaboja/tg
cd tg # change directory to location of source code
make # build the program
to run it:


./tg # run it

Here's a screenshot of a movement I'm trying to regulate (and not doing a very good job).


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## avihai

*Re: Installing & running native on Linux Mint (Ubuntu)*

Hey
I know that the purpose of this freeware is not to compete with professional timegrapher BUT I would like to ask that: Did someone has the chance to compare this software to a professional timegrapher ?
THANKS !
Avihai


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## pbnelson

*Re: Installing & running native on Linux Mint (Ubuntu)*



avihai said:


> Did someone has the chance to compare this software to a professional timegrapher ?


I've got an ACE No. 1000 Timegrapher arriving next week. When it gets here I'll do a side-by-side comparison.


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## evilphoton

Glad you got it!! I could have gotten lucky with the install, but I used https://wiki.winehq.org/MacOSX to start with. it's probably a pretty cheesy way to run an exe on a mac, but I had tried long ago on ubuntu and didn't get anywhere, so decided to try it. I'll try the correct mac install earlier in this thread at some point, but to me the functionality is seamless. I know you're not supposed to have to with a linux kernel, but i had to reboot a few times before the program would run and not lock up - i assume it was wine's interaction with either the tg or the OS. i just stuck the tg executables and libraries in a desktop folder.



watchuseektom said:


> After a whole afternoon installing homewbrew to install wine, to have wine fail at installing tg, I went back to the steps a few pages back and apparently installed tg successfully. Now my quesiton is: where is the program? Nothing in my apps or library folders... anything special to open the program?
> 
> Well, I have apparently installed wine, entered command $ open ~/.wine/drive_c/Program\ Files then put all the files in the tg folder in system 32 folder, entered wine tg.exe and here I am with tg opened. Magic. Now to get to work!
> 
> EDIT, here's what I was able to get with a 1975 Omega speedmaster:


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## contrate_wheel

dmnc said:


> I'll raise an issue on GitHub and add a bit of detail.


Hi, I answered to your ticket on GitHub some time ago. Did you test the fix?


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## contrate_wheel

*Re: Installing & running native on Linux Mint (Ubuntu)*



pbnelson said:


> I've got an ACE No. 1000 Timegrapher arriving next week. When it gets here I'll do a side-by-side comparison.


Great! I am very interested too, thanks a lot!


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## dmnc

contrate_wheel said:


> Hi, I answered to your ticket on GitHub some time ago. Did you test the fix?


Many apologies. I receive a lot of GitHub notifications from work so must have missed it. I'll test this evening and let you know.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pbnelson

*Ace No. 1000 Timegrapher comparison*

It's a busy day at church this Good Friday, but the Ace Timegrapher (1000) just arrived from UPS and I couldn't resist a quick look. Here is a photo of the same watch measured on both platforms simultaneously. Really I should do a video, but I will just share this one photo and promise to follow up with more details later. The biggest "detail" to note is that getting the microphone/preamplifier working well was critical to "tg" performing properly. Specifically, until I resolved the 60Hz hum, "tg" would draw a porpoised line, with timings ranging from -300s/day to +300s/day, oscillating back and forth over the space of a minute. But I could go on and on. Here's the pic. I'll post more when I get some time, hopefully this weekend...


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## pbnelson

*Ace Timer No. 1000 Timegrapher comparison #2*

_Here are more details of a side-by-side comparison between my brand new "Ace Timer No. 1000 Timegrapher" and the open-source "*tg*" timegrapher software by Marcello Mamino, aka "vacaboja" aka "contrate_wheel". Source code here._

Overview


*tg* consistently reports +3 to +5 seconds/day higher than the Ace Timer. It agrees within 0.1ms on the beat, and about 5° on amplitude.
On two watches tested overnight the Ace Timer was more accurate for seconds/day. I cannot independently confirm beat or amplitude.
The microphone matters a lot. I ended up using a modified Logitech USB microphone.
I compiled and ran *tg* as a native binary on my HP Envy laptop running Linux Mint 1.71. Windows binaries are supplied by the author. It has been reported to run on OS/X, too.

Setup

The Microphone

The sound source makes a big difference. In all honesty one of the best things about the Ace Timer is it includes an optimized microphone on a convenient rotating stand with built-in watch clamp. The biggest challenge I had with *tg* was getting suitable audio input. Here's what I tried...


Total failure. I tried to find the microphone on my laptop for laying the watch atop it, as others have demonstrated on this thread. No luck, after trying for a _long_ time. If anyone knows where the mic is on an HP Envy 15-k016nr please let me know, heh.
Total failure. I tried to use the microphone built-in to my Sennheiser Momentum headphone cable. Again, no luck.
Partial success. I took a piezo mic for an acoustic guitar ($5 on ebay) and with the help of various adapters/cables connected it to the phonograph input of an old 5W amplifier. With more cables I routed the amp's output to the microphone input on my laptop. This worked very poorly until I resolved the 60Hz hum by connecting both the amplifier and _the watch_ to the grounding plug on a 120V outlet. Without that grounding, the hum somehow caused "porpoising" of the signal line, throwing measurements off by minutes per day. Even after solving that problem I was not happy with the signal noisiness of that setup, as judged by the number of stray dots scattered about the tape.
Success! I scrounged a 10 year old "Logitech 980186-0403 USB Desktop Microphone" from a box in the basement. It had a mic on the end of a long boom. With some precision hacking using a sharp screwdriver I managed to remove the boom from the stand and the microphone from the boom, leaving it dangling from an 8" wire. This I gently affixed to the watch with a rubber band. Those particular microphones are $35 used, but I expect any desktop USB microphone would work as well - Amazon sells one by "Tontec" for $7. Here's what mine looked like after the hack:







​The *tg* Software

This is a repost of my prior instructions for building *tg 0.2.3 *on Linux Mint 17.1 (an Ubuntu 14.04 derivative). I post them here because order of installation turned out to be crucial, and I would like to save you the trial-and-error hassle.


Code:


[LIST=1]
[*]sudo apt-get install libgtk2.0-dev # install first of several various packages needed for compilation
[*]sudo apt-get install libjack-jackd2-dev # the order of installation is important
[*]sudo apt-get install portaudio19-dev # because libjack must be installed before portaudio
[*]sudo apt-get install libfftw3-dev
[*]sudo apt-get install git # if you don't have git, this is just for downloading the source, which you might prefer doing directly
[*]cd # go to home directory
[*]git clone [EMAIL="[email protected]:vacaboja/tg.git"][email protected]:vacaboja/tg.git[/EMAIL] # this downloads the source from [URL]https://github.com/vacaboja/tg[/URL]
[*]cd tg # change directory to location of source code
[*]make # build the program
[*]./tg # run it!
[/LIST]

The Watches


Seiko SRP615. This watch used the fabulous Seiko 4R36A movement, hacking and hand-winding, until my boy and I wrecked it. The good news is that I got a replacement SII NH36A movement from StarTime Supply for under $50 delivered. Back in the day it had been running -15 seconds/day so I twiddled the knobs inside and managed to get it to a perfect 0s/d for two days. Alas, then my boy bashed a metal stool into my innocently passing arm hard enough to pop the crown into position 3 and pop off one of the spring bars. Fortunately the watch didn't fall because I had it on a Zulu strap. Even so, it reverted to being +60s/d and I couldn't get it any better than +60s/d or -60s/d, despite using a microscope to make adjustments. Eventually I pushed something too far and it broke. Hence the replacement movement. Now it's been runnning on the NH36A for four days, at about +5s/d, with no adjustment whatsoever. I'll probably wait a month before adjusting anything, anyway.
Seiko SKX007. This watch has been running on its 7S26C for a couple months now, and it's never yet been opened. At about -1s/d, I'm reluctant to do so. But I do have a Dagaz thick domed crystal on the way, so I suppose I'll fiddle with it when installing that.

Testing Approach

I mounted the watch into the Ace Timer's microphone stand as usual. Then, using a rubber binder through the spring bars I clamped the USB microphone to its back. I adjusted the input level on my computer until the tg software reliably reported four green bars. The Ace Timer's input levels were left at their default. I adjusted the lift-angle appropriately: 53° for the NH36A and 52° (*) for the 7S26C. After moving the watch into position, I waited a full minute for the movement to settle down before recording the readings. The Ace Timer had its test period set to the default 12 seconds. Test period is not user-configurable for *tg*, and after a brief search I couldn't find anything in the code to even tell me what it is.

_(*) Since testing this I have learned that the correct lift angle for the Seiko 7S26 movement (aka SII NH26) is actually 53°, per the NH25/26 Technical Guide._

Comparison

Overnight Test

I tested each watch in the dial-down position simultaneously with the Ace Timer and *tg*. I then used Time.is to record the watches' equations of time and left them overnight in that position. Sixteen hours later I checked them again. The Ace Timer was less accurate with the SRP615, but more accurate with the SKX007. I attribute this to the fact that the SRP615 movement is only a few days old, and probably needs breaking in. Specifically:

Seiko SRP615. Ace Timer reported +0 s/d, 282° amplitude, 0.1ms beat error. *tg* reported +5 s/d, 0.2ms beat error, 270° amplitude. Actual measured time delta after 16 hours was +3 seconds change.
Seiko SKX007. Ace Timer reported +1 s/d, 254° amplitude, 0.0ms beat error. *tg* reported +5 s/d, 0.1ms beat error, 251° amplitude. Actual measured time delta after 16 hours was 0 seconds change.

Photos

Along the way I took a few photos showing simultaneous measurements. I also took a video. Here they are...

















Here is the video. When I started the video the SRP615 had been running stably for well over a minute in the crown-right position. I adjusted it to dial-down and filmed while it was re-stabilizing. Open it in youtube and go full-screen to realize the high-def.






I'd like to explicitly note that *tg* consistently gives a reading of +4s/d higher than the Ace Timer. It may vary from +3 to +5, but after stabilization it always settles in around that same difference. That's a clue to something though I'm not sure what.

Conclusion

The *tg* program is pretty spectacular considering the price. 100% free. You may hassle with installation, and you will hassle with microphones, but your total outlay won't exceed $20. This compares pretty favorably to basically everything else out there. Heck, I paid over $30 for the "tick-o-print" Android app and never did manage to get a good reading off of it, presumably from microphone problems, but I digress. My point is: I was able to get timings from *tg* for free that were within a few seconds of the $170 Ace Timer No. 1000 timegrapher.

Sure, if you have the funds, the Ace Timer is the better tool. This is principally because it has a dedicated microphone that supplies a few key features.

Easy mounting. Just slide back the bracket, set down the watch and release
Easy positioning. It rotates easily for pitch/yaw/roll. You can test in all the standard positions and anything in between.
Noise filtering. The Ace Timer is very forgiving of external noises. Normal conversation, typing and household noises are not picked up and do not disturb the measurements. Contrast to *tg* which relies on a normal microphone and requires a very quiet room to work properly.
Apart from the microphone the Ace Timer also feels more reliable. This is a subjective assessment so please bear with me. I say this because it varies less from moment to moment in it's readouts. Given the same conditions, a good meter measures the same metrics every time. The Ace Timer shows more of this stability than the *tg* software. That may be an artifact of the "test period", which is an open question. Or it may be something to do with external noise. Or it may be an issue with irregular CPU cycle allocation. It's hard to say. But when using the Ace Timer it just feels more stable. Yes, that's a subjective assessment. I've yet to read any review contrasting the $170 hobbyist Ace Timer No. 1000 with something more professional and expensive. Nor do I have any way to confirm which tool's beat error or amplitude is more correct. So what I'm saying is, take that assessment with a grain of salt.

If you lack the funds, or just want to experiment before investing hundreds, then *tg* is a fabulous! tool. And at the end of the day I would use it precisely the same way I intend to use the Ace Timer. Namely, adjust the beat until it averages 0.0ms in different positions without sacrificing amplitude, then adjust the timing until it averages 0s/d in different positions. That done, wear the watch normally for a few days and make note of the timing error per day. Then I would find the position where *tg* reported the same timing as observed in actual use, and from there adjust again to zero. I expect the end-result of that process would be equivalent whether I were using *tg* or the Ace Timer. Which in a way is kind of disappointing as I just laid out $170 for this guy. But I suppose I do at least have a more convenient tool vis-a-vis positioning and noise-resistance, so I'm going to hang onto that.


----------



## Halda

*Re: Ace Timer No. 1000 Timegrapher comparison #2*



pbnelson said:


> I'd like to explicitly note that *tg* consistently gives a reading of +4s/d higher than the Ace Timer. It may vary from +3 to +5, but after stabilization it always settles in around that same difference. That's a clue to something though I'm not sure what.


This is expected because tg currently doesn't have a calibration option. PC sound cards are usually not exact enough, and will give more or less invalid results. However, the error rate is always stable. In your case it seems to be about 4 sec/day. Once tg implements the ability to adjust the rate calculations, it should match up perfectly.


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## guidovelasquez

*Re: Ace Timer No. 1000 Timegrapher comparison #2*

Hello friends, I want to congratulate the creator of tg program is impressive performance. I want to add is something that has been repeated in this forum: The microphone makes the difference. Although the program is highly efficient in capturing sound thanks to the algorithm with which it was provided, the crucial part in analyzing the escape of a clock is to obtain a relatively intelligible signal.

I use several piezo microphones, including one of an old machine clocks analysis. What has worked best for me is the pre-amplifier PYLE PP440. Here is the link:

Thank you very much for the program.

Now I would like to make a request: Add: 1) Calibration 2) clock mode to analyze Swiss watches without escape, pendulum clocks.

In this screenshot I did a test with a very clean recording clock ticking and shows the efficiency of the program. Call it a "perfect" or ideal sound. It is what we seek from a watch to have reliable results.

View attachment 7588146

Guido Velasquez


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## guidovelasquez

*Re: Ace Timer No. 1000 Timegrapher comparison #2*

Sorry for the grammatical construction but English is not my native language.

Guido Velasquez


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## guidovelasquez

Snakepottery what it says is correct. One can just see the numbers. However, a better understanding of each screen will contribute to better enjoy every feature of the program. As I already understood some things. I is the scale in degrees that allows corresponds to the location of escape steps very useful. I have only one question: Does the point 360 deg. corresponds to the rest position the balance wheel?









Lo que dice Snakepottery es correcto. Uno puede simplemente ver los números. Sin embargo, comprender mejor cada pantalla contribuirá a disfrutar mejor cada característica del programa. Mientras ya estoy entendiendo algunas cosas. Me es muy útil la escala en grados que permite corresponde con la ubicación de los pasos del escape. Solo tengo una duda: ¿El punto 360 grados corresponde al la posición de reposo del volante?


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## Klaus Tickalot

*Re: Ace Timer No. 1000 Timegrapher comparison #2*



pbnelson said:


> _Here are more details of a side-by-side comparison ..._


Just WOW |> very impressive |>



pbnelson said:


> The Ace Timer had its test period set to the default 12 seconds


I feel more comfortable with 60 seconds or more because it can help detecting issues on the gears or at least exclude possible causes. (Not to mention the additional graphs of the sound with a lot of information)

The results of both ACE and TG I would call identical within standard deviation ;-) what we all are trying to measure and interpret is within a time slot of milliseconds to extrapolate to a deviation per day (don't do that on stock market  ). As far as I know 0.1ms difference between tick and tock gives a difference of about 5 degrees in amplitude on a 28.800 movement or 3 degrees at 21.600 :think:

I'm really curious about reading more of such excellent reports.


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## Klaus Tickalot

guidovelasquez said:


> Snakepottery what it says is correct. One can just see the numbers. However, a better understanding of each screen will contribute to better enjoy every feature of the program. As I already understood some things. I is the scale in degrees that allows corresponds to the location of escape steps very useful. I have only one question: Does the point 360 deg. corresponds to the rest position the balance wheel?


your question and Snakepottery post #123

Just take the following as an effort from an dilettante but very tenacious amateur and please correct.

If I interpret the two upper graphs the right way the 360 is not the rest position of the balance but the "virtual" maximum deflection. The blue line will give the amplitude / real deflection of the balance which is calculated from time between beginning and end of the tick respectively the tock when the roller passes the pallet fork. The shorter the time it takes for the three pulses (ellipse-stone hitting fork of anchor, fork of anchor hitting ellipse stone, fork hitting banking pin) the faster the rotation of balancewheel in rest position and therefore the higher the amplitude.
The milliseconds for calculation is given underneath. In your picture about 11 - 11.25ms. With 21.600 and liftangle 50 it will be calculated to about 241,6 degrees to the tick-side and about 236,2 to the tock-side. Average is 238,9 degrees.
The lower graph shows both the three parts of tick-pulse and the tock-pulse and if there is any noise in between that should'nt be there. Seems to be ok on your watch.
The vertical graph on the right should be ideally one straight line (or two straight lines very tight) without scattering or wiggly line as depicted in your screenshot. I assume either the pallet-stones or the escape-wheel need cleaning and lubrication. Is there still a wiggly-line when fully wound up? Which movement did you test?


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## Snakepottery

Thanks for your response, that seems to make sense! So the two top graphs, one is the tic and the other is the toc?

It's a great bit of software and in comparison to my timegrapher 1000, pretty accurate. I do however get great variance in beat error between the two, around 5ms. Now given others don't get this, I've put it down to ack if output from the mic. So I've bought an amplifier which should sort it. In terms of timing accuracy,it's within a few seconds, certainly good enough for my purposes, and as tg relies on the sound card clock, probably as good as it gets.
Once I've resolved the beat error, I'll probably sell on the timegrapher and just use tg on my Mac.

Snake


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## paranoidroid

I got this working great on OSX thanks to the Homebrew formula. I have used two apps for iOS for timing (Hairspring & Watch Tuner) and they both seem very accurate with observed results as well as agree with each other. The s/d seems to vary more with tg however using the same mic setup and generally seems to report slower than the two iOS apps. Is there a technical reason why the timing doesn't seem as stable on tg? (sound card or OS timing limitations?). It seems they would apply to iOS as well.. otherwise really looking forward to the continued development of this. Nice job!


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## Snakepottery

The microphone preamp arrived today, BTec BT26, (cheap and cheerful) , I've connected it up to my Mac and the watch mic, and it works a treat.
The additional amplitude had resolved the beat error variance and in comparison to my timegrapher, the results are almost the same. BE is identical, amplitude within a few degrees, and BPH show -6secs compared to the t1000. 

All in all, it close enough for me, the timing errors will be due to the internal clock of the Mac, so if the designer gets a chance to put in some kind of tuning, that will sort that.

Snake


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## contrate_wheel

Hi friends!

I am very late as usual... First of all, thanks to *pbnelson* for his
review. As far as I know, this is the first time that tg has been publicly
compared to a dedicated machine: *awesome work,* and very interesting!

I am also happy with the results. My expectation was +-0.5 milliseconds
for the beat error, +-10 degrees for the amplitude, and some constant
error of a few s/d (depending on your sound card) for the rate. The clock
in a sound card, just like any watch or clock, has a daily rate, which we
can express in seconds per day. This rate is, as for any watch or clock,
subject to change with environmental conditions, notably temperature, and
it will also slowly drift with time. A rate of plus or minus a few seconds
per day is typical. So, with all probability, the clock in pbnelson's
sound card is about 5 s/d slow, and this makes the readings taken through
this sound card appear about 5 s/d too high.

*Klaus*'s explanation of the graphs is spot on. During every period (every
back and forth of the balance wheel) the escapement makes two sounds,
which we perceive as a tic and a toc. Each of these sounds is actually a
cluster of closely spaced clicks produced by several parts colliding in
the space of a dozen milliseconds. The lower graph represents the entire
period of the watch, so one tic-toc, the two upper graphs are enlargements
of the tic and the toc portions (highlighted in blue in the lower graph).
The three blobs that you can usually see in the tic and toc graphs are the
traces of the clicks made, from left to right, by the impulse jewel
hitting the fork, by the escapement unlocking (i.e. when the fork begins
to push on the impulse jewel), and finally by the escapement locking
again. If tg works correctly the third click should be aligned on the zero
milliseconds mark, if it is so, then the position of the first one marks
the amplitude over the amplitude scale. Tg also draws a little blue line
to mark the place where it thinks that the first click is.

*Calibration* is now the most requested feature, so it is *next to come!*

I have just uploaded a *new version* of tg. Except bugfixes it has the same
interface as the old one, but the algorithm is multithreaded, so it should
run considerably smoother on multi-core machines (almost all modern
computers). The Windows binary is in the usual place. The source code is
in a branch called "test". I will move it to the master branch as soon as
*dmnc*'s homebrew recipe is confirmed to support the new version (so if you
want to try it on a mac, for now, you have to install manually).


----------



## contrate_wheel

paranoidroid said:


> I have used two apps for iOS for timing (Hairspring & Watch Tuner) and they both seem very accurate with observed results as well as agree with each other. The s/d seems to vary more with tg however using the same mic setup and generally seems to report slower than the two iOS apps. Is there a technical reason why the timing doesn't seem as stable on tg?


Hi, sorry, I didn't notice your post. I really do not have much information here to give any meaningful answer. Can you send me a relatively long (say a couple of minutes) recording demonstrating the problem? With it, I can try to figure out if the variability that you see is a bug in tg or what.


----------



## evilphoton

need to share my experience - not regarding tg (it's awesome), but how i'm using it.
my 007 is gaining time, it went from about +5s a day to about +50s a day over the past couple weeks, and it's magnetized. i can spin a compass dial around with it. i also realize that i'm drawing causation here...
when I use tg with my macbook, i just set the watch on the mic. this is the only thing i can think of that could cause magnetization, i'm also guessing that the computer can generate enough of a field to cause magnetization. the best part is, i've been checking the watch with tg every couple days..... I set the watch on it and let tg listen for about a minute or so to stabilize (it may not really need much time at all). granted, i don't know for sure, it could be from something else but it's my only working theory.

i haven't taken the watch back off, and i really don't want to with this particular watch. i'm hoping that when i use the demagnetizer (it's the blue ebay one and i know it works from using it on screwdrivers, screws, etc.), it will work without taking the movement out. I've read both that demagnetization (hold the watch on the plate, press the button, wait a bit, then draw the watch away slowly) should be done with just one position, and also that you should do it once, turn 90 degrees and repeat. so when i get home, i'm going to demagnetize from one position, then use tg with an external mic and see before/after differences.

has anyone discovered that they're magnetizing their own watch when testing like this?


----------



## adamant365

I would say you probably aren't magnetizing it with the microphone, but rather with the magnetic components inside the laptop. If your Mac has a headset jack that you can plug an iPhone headphone set (the ones with the integrated mic), try that and that will keep you away from the computer itself. I have a non-Mac laptop and I use the iPhone headset mic and it works really quite well. Even with my POS work laptop, I get a good clean signal through the iPhone headset.

EDIT: And I didn't even answer the question...no, I'm not magnetizing my watches by testing them because I keep them away from strong magnetic sources.


----------



## evilphoton

yes, inside the laptop (is what was in my head..), that's what i meant. i've used the iphone headset in the pas also and it works well, especially with this software.



adamant365 said:


> I would say you probably aren't magnetizing it with the microphone, but rather with the magnetic components inside the laptop. If your Mac has a headset jack that you can plug an iPhone headphone set (the ones with the integrated mic), try that and that will keep you away from the computer itself. I have a non-Mac laptop and I use the iPhone headset mic and it works really quite well. Even with my POS work laptop, I get a good clean signal through the iPhone headset.
> 
> EDIT: And I didn't even answer the question...no, I'm not magnetizing my watches by testing them because I keep them away from strong magnetic sources.


----------



## paranoidroid

contrate_wheel said:


> Hi, sorry, I didn't notice your post. I really do not have much information here to give any meaningful answer. Can you send me a relatively long (say a couple of minutes) recording demonstrating the problem? With it, I can try to figure out if the variability that you see is a bug in tg or what.


I think you actually answered it in a previous post. My issue was tg is reporting 5s slower than the iOS apps I'm using (which reflect reality so I assume is accurate). It could be the explanation is the sound card I'm using in my Mac is just running at an offset than my iPhone with the iOS apps..


----------



## deisenlord

Built like a champ for me using brew under OSX 10.11.3. Worked fantastic with a couple of pocket watches. i need to work on a mic setup for smaller wristwatches, for the pocket watches I just used an iphone headphone/mic combo.

Thanks for this.
David


----------



## Apollo83

Just discovered this thread. Wow. Thank you CW.
Ran the exe on Win10 using a cheap logitech webcam mic:








My Speedbird3 with ETA2824-2 gave following results face up off wrist (~20C):








This is within half a second of my off wrist face up real world comparison - like I said... Wow.
Now I need to go an research the difference in shape between my tick and tock to see if I need to be worried


----------



## NEKNIM

This thing is really cool. I was going to download one of the iPhone apps but I'm glad I stumbled across this. One of the things I did was pull up youtube videos of people using physical timegraphers. I was able to get some readings that seemed to match but it was difficult as theres usually background noise or people talking. Also, if the person recording changes the position of their camera mic it affects the measurements. On one video I used you can see clearly in the graph that something is off on one side of the pallet fork, as one line is nice and the other is a mess of dots. What was cool to see was when this program picked up the tiks a very similar pattern emerged. You guys can give this method a try (if you don't own a physical timegrapher yourself) but its not going to give the most consistent results in terms of comparison. 

I tested my watches, which are mostly cheap sub $200 nothings and one tag aquaracer (ETA 2824-2), with my built in Mac microphone and a set of Apple EarPods. Both of which gave pretty much exactly the same reading. One thing I noticed when I tested my Tag, which has been losing about 5 minutes a month, was that if I placed the watch on a flat surface I got a reading of around +2s/d in most positions. However, if I put the watch on my wrist and taped the microphone to the watch I got a reading of about -9s/d. This would be the number I would expect as that equates to almost -5min/month. I feel like this could be due to temperature but it seemed to confirm my observations over the last few months. 

The reason I wanted a timegrapher program was purely out of my own curiosity to see what my watches would register. I only actually learned what a timegrapher was today when I googled "how to test watch accuracy?" so take my mini review from a complete newbie's perspective. Anyway, thanks for the program!


----------



## evilphoton

I'm seeing some inconsistency between daily error in what tg is reporting vs. the daily error that the watch is actually doing. 
i set my watch on the mic of my mac in all 6 positions and it reports an average of about -20s/d. actually wearing it though, it runs almost +20s/d fast - yes, 40s difference. 
I thought maybe tg it was having difficulty hearing the through the case, so i took the back off, but it reports the same. 
I really don't think it's the software based on the feedback here and my GP is 5 position adjusted (never touched) and tg shows +1 to +2s/d and this is just about what the watch actually runs. but I'm at a loss determining the difference with this watch. 

Has anyone else noticed something like this? I assume this is some sort of user error but i haven't been able to determine what. it seems to just be this watch. it's an 007 with a 7s26c.


----------



## Paleotime

You could have an issue with the balance arcs becoming short in the transitions between positions. If your watch wrist is pretty active then the short/fast arcs in these transitions could be an issue - even if you settle into a good rate once a position is established for a little bit.


----------



## evilphoton

thank you! I can see that and it explains why when i first set the watch on the mic, the balance arc seems low (say 250 degrees) and the daily error is fairly low. then after it sits for that minute (it actually stabilizes in probably 15 seconds or less), the arc has increased to say 290 degrees and the error has increased. the change is similar each time i set the watch down in a different position. i can see wearing the watch during the day and constantly moving that the balance would run in a fairly constant state of transition, as you say.

I've slowed the watch quite a bit to make it fit with how i wear it, using tg as a reference that i didn't move the spazzy little lever too far... since if i can see the lever move, it's way too much.



Paleotime said:


> You could have an issue with the balance arcs becoming short in the transitions between positions. If your watch wrist is pretty active then the short/fast arcs in these transitions could be an issue - even if you settle into a good rate once a position is established for a little bit.


----------



## 1afc

Thanks contrate_wheel. Great effort to write such good software and then supply it as open source.

Ran first time on Win 7. This just makes life so much easier. Time with watch with something like watch check or a piece of paper, open it up and make a change that should be very close to what you need. 

Thanks everyone else for providing feedback for other items like mikes and amplifiers (which I'm trying to stay away from).


----------



## beastomaniac

It seems like that the latest version doesn't recognize greater amplitudes than 300 degrees. Does anybody else have same kind of results?


----------



## 1afc

evilphoton said:


> I really don't think it's the software based on the feedback here and my GP is 5 position adjusted (never touched) and tg shows +1 to +2s/d and this is just about what the watch actually runs. but I'm at a loss determining the difference with this watch.


So as we understand, you say you have a GP that tg measures +1 to +2s/d and when you wear the watch you get the same reading. So you can get the software to perform on one watch.
What are the timing errors on the GP and the 007? I don't know what is acceptable but I have just tweaked a few of mine to be 0.1ms.

With the 007 I would start by measuring the watch in one position, say face up, and then put the watch on the shelf, face up, for a day and see what it does. 
If you do this in a number of positions and find most are ok then there appears to be one setting which is going very fast.
If you can find that position then you probably need to go to a watchmaker and tell him the story.


----------



## revance

Very cool, I look forward to playing with this.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Hi friends,

we finally have a *calibration procedure!*

The new version of tg (0.3.1) is available in the usual places. A summary
of the install instructions for several operating systems is here
https://github.com/vacaboja/tg

Before I go into the details, let me thank *pbnelson* for his install
instructions: he actually stumbled upon a bug in the Debian distribution
that interferes with one of the packages needed by tg
(https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=718221). Fortunately,
the install sequence suggested by pbnelson works around the bug, so I have
included it in my instructions on github. Finally, I would like to thank
*all other contributors* to this thread for many hints and suggestions, the
past ones and hopefully the future ones!

As any computer program that emulates a timing machine, tg necessarily
takes its time reference from the clock of the audio card of the computer.
There is anecdotal evidence that audio cards have usually relatively
stable clocks. However, unfortunately, these clocks are often affected by
a constant deviation from true time, sometimes of many seconds per day. To
correct for it, one must measure the deviation by comparison to a more
accurate time source, and then inform the program of its value. With tg,
this can be done either manually or through an automatic calibration
procedure.

The manual setting is straightforward, just input the rate of the sound
card's clock, in seconds per day, into the "cal" field.









The automatic calibration feature works by comparing any analog quartz
watch (producing one beat per second) to the sound card. Operationally,
you put a quartz watch on the microphone and then you click on the
calibrate button.









Tg will try to pick up the watch's beat.









When it does, you will be notified.









Then you will have to wait for a calibration period of about 15 minutes,
and, at the end, two outcomes are possible: luck









and no luck.









If the calibration procedure succeeds, the calibration constant will be
updated automatically. To leave calibration mode, just press the calibrate
button again.

Now to some *technical details*. Most of you will already know, but it
might be surprising to some, to learn that quartz watches usually do not
beat at a constant rate. In general, the crystal oscillator controlling a
quartz watch is set to beat at a considerably fast rate, say +10 s/day.
The circuitry in the watch is then programmed to periodically apply a
correction that precisely compensates the rate of the crystal. This
mechanism, called "inhibition compensation", is cheaper than implementing
an equally accurate oscillator directly in hardware. For those interested,
it's easy to find more information on the internet, for instance one might
want to take a look at this:
http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2276.pdf

As an example of inhibition compensation, take a look at the trace of a
common quartz watch generated by tg's calibration routine.









You can see very clearly that the watch is running fast most of the time,
and every minute the compensation mechanism brings it back to the correct
average rate. The screenshot has been taken after the termination of tg's
calibration procedure. The blue lines are roughly parallel to the zig-zag
trace of the watch, this indicates that tg has computed its average
correctly, therefore the resulting calibration is accurate (referenced to
that particular watch, of course). One might ask why, when the inhibition
mechanism operates, the trace jumps back quickly, but not as abruptly as
it should. This happens because each dot on the graph is actually a
short-term average (this is done to minimize the influence of audio
noise), so it takes a few seconds after the compensation mechanism has
fired for the average to converge to the new value.

There is one last caveat that I have to point out: high end quartz watches
might use very complicated compensation mechanisms that operate over long
periods of time. See, for instance, this very informative post by forum
member *dwjquest*
https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/eta-2...rature-correction-method-unveiled-300533.html
and this excellent discussion of several high accuracy watches
More about affordable High-End Quartz
As a consequence, somewhat contrary to intuition, it is not recommended to
use a high end watch for calibration, unless, of course, you feel
comfortable evaluating the trace and understanding what is going on. Also
radio-controlled watches are not a good choice, because, self-adjusting
every day or so, they prevent one from getting a feedback of how actually
accurate they are. The best reference to calibrate tg is a cheap,
commonplace, quartz watch that you know by experience is within plus or
minus a few seconds per month.

Please keep in mind that the rate of a sound card's clock is not really a
figure of merit for consumer-grade products, because sound cards are not
designed for accurate timekeeping. So, a sound card that has a rate of,
say, +4 s/day, is not, on this account, inferior to one that has +0.4. It
is just the luck of the draw. Stability, here, is the important thing, and
there is no a priori relationship between rate and stability, so +4 card
might or might not be more stable than the +0.4 one. Temperature is
probably the biggest factor impacting the stability of the rate. As I
said, there is anecdotal evidence that this should not be a concern, see
for instance this (section 2.3)
http://protyposis.net/download/608

Barring bugs, I believe that the core features of tg are now almost
complete. I will consider adding some built-in screenshot or report
generation mechanism: there has already been some work done in this
direction by a github user named *wahlstedt*. Also an audio input selector
is likely to be added (currently, tg can only use the default input). If
you find that any other essential feature is still missing please let me
know!


----------



## pbnelson

Looks great! I pulled the latest source, built it on my Linux Mint (i.e. Ubuntu/Debian) system, and it started right up.

I calibrated *tg* using a Swiss Legend watch (a middle-of-the-road quartz). After 30 minutes it had settled down to a -4.7s/d calibration factor.

I then compared *tg* to my TG1000 using the same simultaneous monitoring technique I used before. The *tg* program is now much more accurate, reporting only 1 s/d slower than the TG1000. I manually lowered the calibration from -4.7s/d to -4.0s/d, and then *tg* consistently reported the same error rate as the TG1000.

Unfortunately the beat error was still off by a half second. The TG1000 consistently reports 0.2ms, and *tg* consistently reports 0.7ms.


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## Snakepottery

Looking forward to tryout no the new version, however, not being a OS X specialist (just a user), not sure how I update the software. Running the install command tells me it's already loaded.
Any help anyone?
Thanks

Snake


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 1afc

For you Vostok fans, Meranom informs me that the lift angle of the auto is 42 degrees and any amplitude over 200 is fine. 
My Dirskie is running at 255 degrees .

I didn't specifically ask about the manual winds but expect they will be exactly the same.


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## 1afc

For you Vostok fans, Meranom informs me that the lift angle of the auto is 42 degrees and any amplitude over 200 is fine. 
My Dirskie is running at 255 degrees .

I didn't specifically ask about the manual winds but expect they will be exactly the same.


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## Klaus Tickalot

A really great new feature !!!!

Quick feedback: 
I did the calibration using a 10 year old Tissot V8 with ETA G10.211 (battery one year old). Maybe 10 or 15 minutes later the calibration was set to +5,1s/d
The calibration-graph did not look so "pretty" as shown in the example, but it seems to have worked properly and corresponds even better to real-life. Using the previous versions I ended up in adjusting some of my watches a bit slower or at a maximum to +/-0s/d to have a better timing. Now I know that it should have been 5,1s/d  

MANY THANKS AGAIN |>

p.s. How about adding a beatrate of 3600bph e.g. for selecting a quarzmovement with a "pretty graph" in the menu? (no begging, just an idea)


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## dmnc

Snakepottery said:


> Looking forward to tryout no the new version, however, not being a OS X specialist (just a user), not sure how I update the software. Running the install command tells me it's already loaded.
> Any help anyone?
> Thanks
> 
> Snake
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This is an idiosyncrasy of homebrew with a head only formula.

I'm away for a few days but will check the formula all works ok when I get back. However, assuming no dependencies changed instead of upgrade run 'brew uninstall tg' followed by a fresh 'brew install tg --HEAD'.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NEKNIM

For those wondering how to install the update on a mac, here is what I did that seems to work.

run, in terminal, [brew uninstall dmnc/horology/tg --HEAD]
Then run, [brew install dmnc/horology/tg --HEAD]

This uninstalled the old and reinstalled the new.


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## Snakepottery

Perfect, thanks gents! I did think that would be the solution but wasn't 100% sure of the syntax. Pretty obvious really

Thanks
Snakey

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Guido Velasquez

Excelente trabajo. Muchas gracias. Hemos estado disfrutando casi desde su inicio el programa. Felicitaciones por la característica de Calibración. Muy fácil del configurar. Me gustaría solicitar que integraran el modo Clock. Para relojes de péndulo. Se trataría solamente de medir "rate" y "beat error", sin hacer medición de amplitud. Utilizando solo el tercer sonido de la secuencia del escape.









Excellent work. Thank you very much. We have been enjoying almost since its inception the program. Congratulations on Calibration feature. Very Easy to configure. I would request that integrate the Clock mode. For pendulum clocks. It would be only measured "rate" and "beat error", without amplitude measurement. Using only the third sound of the escape sequence.

Watch-O-Scope here compared to tg calibrated.


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## Coug76

1afc said:


> For you Vostok fans, Meranom informs me that the lift angle of the auto is 42 degrees and any amplitude over 200 is fine.
> My Dirskie is running at 255 degrees .
> 
> I didn't specifically ask about the manual winds but expect they will be exactly the same.


Vostok 22mm calibers (2209, 2214, 2234 etc) run 46° lift.

Vostok 24mm calibers (2409, 2414, 2415, 2416b, 2426, 2432 etc) run 42° lift. There is no difference in lift angle between manual wind and auto (I've transplanted balances from manual to auto wound movements quite successfully). I can't say if the 42° lift angle holds true for older 24mm movements such as the 2403.

Vostok 28mm calibers (2809) run 44° lift.

Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


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## Guido Velasquez

Inconsistency in data beat error.

Dear Contrate_Wheel. I have had many hours of doing tests with the program you do not a have done. I still admired the performance.

However I have found on several occasions some inconsistency in the data delivery on the beat error.

It is possible that the algorithm is choosing the third sound of the entire event 3, (1: Unlock 2: Impulse and 3: Drop or blockage) However, the sound of falling or blockage that is the stroke of tooth wheel exhaust against locking face of the pallet, is not very stable, ie not as stable as coming from the true clock regulator that is the balance wheel.

Here also I have two screenshot made almost at the same instant. The first with tg and another with other software. I tested with two other software and the results are consistent with each other but not with tg.
View attachment 8596810
View attachment 8596834

Therefore asymmetry that is displaying the program is not the steering wheel but relationship escape wheel / pallets.

If the graph is derived from the time between an unlocking and the next, this screenshot is not corresponding.
View attachment 8596778

The amplitude is not recorded. But if it is registered the beat error. If the amplitude is read from the event unlocking fall, How you are determined by the software here?

It may be that I'm doing something wrong. If it were so I need to make the necessary corrections.

Guido


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## Guido Velasquez

Inconsistency in data beat error.

Dear Contrate_Wheel. I have had many hours of doing tests with the program you do not a have done. I still admired the performance.

However I have found on several occasions some inconsistency in the data delivery on the beat error.

It is possible that the algorithm is choosing the third sound of the entire event 3, (1: Unlock 2: Impulse and 3: Drop or blockage) However, the sound of falling or blockage that is the stroke of tooth wheel exhaust against locking face of the pallet, is not very stable, ie not as stable as coming from the true clock regulator that is the balance wheel.

Here also I have two screenshot made almost at the same instant. The first with tg and another with other software. I tested with two other software and the results are consistent with each other but not with tg.














Therefore asymmetry that is displaying the program is not the balance wheel but relationship escape wheel / pallets.

If the graph is derived from the time between an unlocking and the next, this screenshot is not corresponding.









The amplitude is not recorded. But if it is registered the beat error. If the amplitude is read between unlocking event to fall, How you are determined by the software here?

It may be that I'm doing something wrong. If it were so I need to make the necessary corrections.

Guido


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## contrate_wheel

Guido Velasquez said:


> It is possible that the algorithm is choosing the third sound of the entire event 3, (1: Unlock 2: Impulse and 3: Drop or blockage) However, the sound of falling or blockage that is the stroke of tooth wheel exhaust against locking face of the pallet, is not very stable, ie not as stable as coming from the true clock regulator that is the balance wheel.


Hi my friend Guido,

sorry for longly deserting this forum...
Thanks for your testing: you are exactly right about tg not using the first sound as its reference!

For the beat error, to be precise, tg uses the entire waveform of each tic as a reference. When the two waveforms do not match, as in your case, the third sound usually takes the lion's share.

When constructing this algorithm, I considered for some time if my choice might be an error. I was aware that most timing machines (and timing programs) use the first sound, but on the other hand that sound is difficult to detect in really crappy audio (remember that tg was designed specifically for really crappy audio). Unfortunately, no sound comes directly from the balance wheel: the first is determined by the impulse jewel impinging upon the lever, the third is determined by the locking of the escape wheel. So I got the impression (but I didn't experiment, therefore I don't know) that moving the banking pins would disturb the symmetry of the first sound, and altering the pallets' depths would affect the third sound.

I also reasoned that if there is a difference of several milliseconds in the two waveforms, whatever the reason, this fact must be as indicative of asymmetry in the escapement, as it is a several millisecond beat error. Trying to adjust a watch to 0.0ms indicated beat error when something else is off-balance by, say, 3ms, is, to my beginner's understanding, pointless. Timing machines that only give the beat error, might lead the user to believe that once the beat error is 0.0 then the escapement is in perfect symmetry. Often, looking at the graphs, I don't know the reason, but I know that it isn't.

Let me repeat that these are my beginner's impressions. If I am making any mistakes, I would be grateful for them to be pointed out.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Hi friend Contrate_wheel, thank you for answering my concerns about the software that you have made available to us. I mean what you have done with this software, it is fascinating. What explains that the program algorithm is designed to work with a very poor sound, it is true. And in fact I think that given the nature of the sound of a clock, it's amazing what the software manages to make with such a bad sign. However, that in itself is already an advantage. If you can achieve both a bad sign, sure you can get amazing results with a reasonably clear signal. My opinion is that as the software is now better focus our attention on finding a suitable microphone and preamplifier. A SUGGESTION THAT HERE IS WHAT I USE: reparacionderelojes.weebly.com/modificacioacuten-de-pyle-pp440.html

About the sound from the balance wheel, with all respect I would point out that sound the impulse jewel contact, YES it COME FROM THE BALANCE WHEEL. Please see this video that I have prepared: The Beat Noise Of The Swiss Lever Escapement.
The video REALIZE from this: Audemars Piguet escapement

Although I am not an expert on the subject, I still think it would be better to use the first sound waveform ticking for a more accurate beat error.

Thank you very much

Guido
Mi email. omegacronoARROBAgmailDOTcom


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## avihai

contrate_wheel

Thank you for the efforts !!!


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## coupeborgward

Has anyone tried this software with a piezo yet ? What were the results ?


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

coupeborgward said:


> Has anyone tried this software with a piezo yet ? What were the results ?


I suggest at least 10% of the posts here are dealing with piezo-recordings. Just read through the postings and have a look for keywords like: piezo, guitar pickup, pickup clip, pick-up-clip, clip-on guitar pickup, conact microphone.

In short:
YES ;-)
Result: perfect signal (additional preamp recommended)


----------



## cleef16

Where is the software that you guys are using ?


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

cleef16 said:


> Where is the software that you guys are using ?


Hidden between the lines  if you cannot find the software you really missed cool stuff.
Try to find the secret word tg.zip and have fun b-)


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## 1afc

*Timegrapher cf tg*

Just a quick comparison.

The changing traces on tg are a result of my microphone not picking up the signals all the time. 
Timegrapher is more stable but one can't complain about the value of tg. Fantastic.

FYI Watch was Parnis Big Pilot with a Seagull movement.


----------



## jhermit

*Re: Timegrapher cf tg*

Thank you so much to this community for the software, it is awesome. I have a watch that was losing about 20s a day and when I put it on this, the beat error also showed 1.8ms so I sent it out for service.

Quick question, while everything looks normal, it does not seem to record amplitude. It just shows two dashes ("-"). Is that normal?


----------



## contrate_wheel

Hi, my friends!

*@Guido Velasquez:* Thanks for your suggestion about the amplifier. Tg has now all basic basic features, so I really would like to focus on the amplifier design (and writing an operating instructions manual), I only need to find the time for these tings... I understand what you mean about sounds coming from the balance wheel, in fact, I have been inaccurate in my statement. I meant to say that no sound comes _exclusively_ from the balance wheel, so there is always at least a second part involved.

*@avihai:* Thanks for shaing tg on instagram!

*@cleef16:* I understand that this thread is now rather long. I have collected the links and relevant install instructions on the github homepage of tg: https://github.com/vacaboja/tg The program is really straightforward to use (once you are familiar with the workings of lever escapements), but unfortunately I didn't find the time to write a manual. So, for operating instructions, you still have to read this thread.

*@1afc:* Nice! Was tg calibrated with the quartz watch procedure?

*@jhermit:* Yes, it is normal. The dash sign only tells you that tg is unsure about the amplitude, this happens usually because the sound quality is not good enough. Nevertheless, the rate indication of a _calibrated_ tg is, in my opinion, very reliable.

As I said, my priority now, regarding tg, is to experiment a little with amplifiers and write a little user manual (also building a Debian package and fiddling with the amplitude algorithm would be nice...). Hope to do these things before Christmas or so. Thanks again for all your contributions to this thread!


----------



## gentoo

Thanks for providing this software. Works great. Congratulations.
I took an old SKX007, unscrewed the back, and used my Logitech cam for sound input. I was able to regulate it to cca. +1 sec/day dial down. While the movement has significant positional variation it averages to +2 sec/day after 24 hours on hand.


----------



## 1afc

contrate_wheel said:


> Hi, my friends!
> 
> *@1afc:* Nice! Was tg calibrated with the quartz watch procedure?


Yes it was. I was surprised to see it so far off but I understand there is no need for atomic clock performance from a soundcard.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Hello contrate_wheel. Thank you very much for your work with the software. If I could have your email maybe you could start making a quick guide to using the software. I think I'd do it. In addition I have some documents that you might be useful. You could send the. Greetings.


----------



## drewcsillag

Thanks contrate_wheel! tg is really cool and I got my SKX009 down from consistently -15 down to around +-1 -- it's only been a day or two of unusual activity, so hard to say confidently, but the initial signs are encouraging. I do have a question. When I have my watch being "scoped", I do see the s/d vary quite a lot when it's just sitting there not being moved (from +4 to +7 or -11 to -23!), and I don't know if it's an artifact of my laptop, or if my watch is just screwed up -- it does have significant positional variation (I've seen -29 [12 up] to about +17 [face up]). Unfortunately, I don't have a second watch, nor a hardware timegrapher and so am curious if anyone else has seen this. Or do I just need to find a local watchmaker who's willing to put it on their timegrapher to see? I also didn't have a good rig before I regulated the watch, so I don't know if it was this way before I fiddled with it.


----------



## contrate_wheel

*@1afc:* I was surprised too that audio cards can be so much off, but apparently it's common (there was even some more or less scientific study on the subject, that I might have linked in one of the 20 pages of this thread, it was motivated by issues of audio/video synchronization, or something like that). I was lucky that the two machines on which I developed tg were almost spot on, so initially I made the incorrect assumption that this was the norm...

*@guido:* Thanks, I will send you my e-mail address by PM.

*@drewcsillag:* It's very hard to say without a recording of the watch, or at least a screenshot of tg's trace. Could you share one of these?


----------



## 1afc

I've read a lot of the posts but I may have missed something so I'll ask anyway.

tg is a fantastic piece of software and I enjoy using it.

However, my main microphone is a an old USB voip phone that I have skinned down so the mic is not be obstructed by buttons etc.

It works ok but is already many years old and I'm looking for a new one to take it's place because it will eventually break.

So the questions are 
1. please let me know what USB mic you use and where you got it?
2. is it a piezo mic?
3. I have a soldering iron but that's about the extent of my electronics capabilities so has anyone found the need for an amp/filter and are there any workable modules that can be used without fabrication? 
4. Has anyone devised a good stand for positional checking?

TIA


----------



## jhermit

FYI, I am also experiencing the "inaccurate beat error" reading *@Guido* described. Maybe it is because of sound quality issues, but TG was reading a 1.8 BE and a Timegrapher was reading .1.


----------



## contrate_wheel

jhermit said:


> FYI, I am also experiencing the "inaccurate beat error" reading *@Guido* described. Maybe it is because of sound quality issues, but TG was reading a 1.8 BE and a Timegrapher was reading .1.


Thanks, this thing has been discussed over and over again. Well, I guess that I should do what the users want, therefore I will try to change tg so that it reads the same beat error as most timegraphers.

A recording of your watch demonstrating the bug would help me a lot in this. Could you send me one?


----------



## scoff

Thanks for the software!

I have an old MBP15 with Mac OS Sierra on it. Installation went smooth and look like it works fine. I'm using a mic of my Meizu headset right now and it doesn't seem very reliable. I know my watch is within 20 seconds and TG shows from -80 to +50. I guess I need a better microphone right?

All those cheap contact (guitar) microphones have a 1/4" plug (either male or female) and I'm not sure how to pair it with the MBP. Is some kind of 1/4 to 1/8 adapter sufficient? Please share your setup if you have a MacBook or something similar.


----------



## contrate_wheel

scoff said:


> I have an old MBP15 with Mac OS Sierra on it. Installation went smooth and look like it works fine. I'm using a mic of my Meizu headset right now and it doesn't seem very reliable. I know my watch is within 20 seconds and TG shows from -80 to +50. I guess I need a better microphone right?


Could you share a recording or a (full resolution) screenshot? Like this it's hard to say anything...


----------



## jdrichard

Just use the ear bud mic and cut off the ear buds. That works really well as they are built to pick up the slightest amplitude. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## scoff

Thank you!

Here's the screenshot. S/D was anywhere from -50 to +80.









Another watch, it seems to tick louder.









And this one is quiet









I think the mic in my earphone is "too good" as it picks up what it shouldn't, so TG software struggles to separate the watch beat from ambient sounds. Also I couldn't calibrate TG using a quartz watch, it just doesn't hear it at all. Otherwise it works - guesses the bph

I guess I'll have to find a more quiet place and try again.

Anyways, I've ordered a cheap contact microphone and wonder if it would help?


----------



## jdrichard

How can I get a copy of this

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## jdrichard

How do I get a copy of this sw

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## jdrichard

Audio mic is better. I tried using a Chinese purchased contact mic on other sw

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## 1afc

scoff said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Here's the screenshot. S/D was anywhere from -50 to +80.
> I think the mic in my earphone is "too good" as it picks up what it shouldn't, so TG software struggles to separate the watch beat from ambient sounds. Also I couldn't calibrate TG using a quartz watch, it just doesn't hear it at all. Otherwise it works - guesses the bph
> 
> I guess I'll have to find a more quiet place and try again.
> 
> Anyways, I've ordered a cheap contact microphone and wonder if it would help?


I don't have any answers for the variation only to let you know that my watches usually take a while, sometimes 30 seconds or more, to "settle down" from the disruption of changing their orientation to get them and the mic together.


----------



## contrate_wheel

*@jdrichard*: Hi, the program we are talking about is here https://github.com/vacaboja/tg. For instructions on how to operate it, for now, you have to read this thread...

*@scoff*: Thanks for experimenting with my program. As far as I can tell, tg is operating properly in your screenshots. In the first, the watch is probably not keeping a constant rate, so my guess is that the 20s/d that you have measured is actually the long term average of its periodic swings. Being a 18000bph movement, I guess that it might be old... If you know that this is not the case, for instance because you checked the watch on another timegrapher, then I'm definitely interested in a recording of 60s of that watch! In the other two screenshots, tg can not pick up the amplitude (either sound too weak or noise too strong), but the rate should be correct. I see that the calibration is set to 0.0. If uncalibrated, the software still works in every respect, except that the rate will be affected by a constant error. This is because the internal clock of your sound card might be off by a few s/d. All software-based timegraphers have this problem, and there is no escape except calibration against a more stable time source. The calibration procedure is described in this post Open source timing software. - Page 17


----------



## scoff

@contrate_wheel yes that 18000bph watch is old. I don't have access to any other timegraphers, the only "real" one I've seen was as old as the watch in question (and as it's owner watchmaker probably). It just prints graphs on paper.

I couldn't calibrate the software because I don't have a loud enough quartz watch.

This is the same old watch in a more quiet environment.

flat, face up









face down









It's running pretty stable both ways, ±5 seconds.

I still don't know how to interpret these graphs and some of the numbers (like lift angle and its relation to that 219deg). I guess I'll have to read through this thread to get an idea.
BTW a brief readme on the UI/params would be great.

Thanks again!


----------



## contrate_wheel

Thank you all for your contributions: I have a *fix for the beat error bug*. The latest version (0.3.2) should give beat error readings in accordance to most timegraphers, at least when the audio has good quality. If you find that the bug is still there, *please report* it!

The link to get to the program is, of course, the usual one *https://github.com/vacaboja/tg*
Direct link to the Windows binaries *https://ciovil.li/tg.zip*

*@scoff*: you are right that a manual is needed. It's under way. Even if you don't have conclusive evidence, but you believe that tg is misbehaving, feel free to send me a audio sample: maybe it's just a bug, and I will see what I can do to fix it...


----------



## jhermit

I tried it and my beat error seems more in line with the timegrapher. Thank you and great job.

It does seem to go to the high BE for periods of time but then it comes back down.


----------



## dmnc

Mac users, with the new version of tg (0.4.0) a few things have changed.

We now have versioned releases which will make it much easier to upgrade existing installations.

Everything below assumes that you have already managed to install Homebrew correctly. If you haven't, please see brew.sh

However, *if you installed originally using the --HEAD option*, you will need to do the following to get on the new versioned train:



Code:


brew update
brew uninstall tg
brew install tg

For *new users*, everything is simple:



Code:


brew install dmnc/horology/tg

After this, *upgrading* is easy:



Code:


brew update
brew upgrade tg

Please post here, or on the github repo (https://github.com/dmnc/homebrew-horology) if you have any issues specifically with mac installation.

Lastly, and very important, the executable has been renamed from *tg* to *tg-timer*, so to open the application, you now need to run



Code:


tg-timer


----------



## contrate_wheel

Thanks for this dmnc.

*The new version of tg (0.4.0)* comes with minor improvements in the handling of the beat error, and major cosmetic changes.
- We have a *Microsoft Installer package.*
- The old distribution via zipped directory is still available.
- The *OS X installer has been improved by dmnc* (see post above).
- We have .deb *packages for Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Debian, etc.*
- We also have an icon.








The new download page is *https://tg.ciovil.li*, and the old url of tg.zip should now redirect automatically to this page.

The various packages have been tested by me on several platforms (Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8 10, Linux Debian, Ubuntu, Mint). If you encounter any malfunction, please report it!


----------



## NEKNIM

Mac update worked for me. I did run into some issues but I think I was using the wrong command (update vs upgrade). Anyway it seemed to install correctly and runs just fine now on the new version. Although I don't notice any major cosmetic improvements. It pretty much looks exactly the same as before.

All in all, I love using this thing!

Thanks guys for the updates


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

contrate_wheel
*
Thank you for one year of timegrapher
*
*HAPPY ANNIVERSARY*


----------



## dmnc

NEKNIM said:


> Mac update worked for me. I did run into some issues but I think I was using the wrong command (update vs upgrade).


It's really confusing. Update means update the catalogue, so that homebrew knows about the newest version whereas upgrade actually installs it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## contrate_wheel

Thanks sincerely Klaus!

I didn't notice that it is one year since this thread has started. Surely, thanks to many who contributed here, my prototype has improved considerably during this time. I'm very happy of this outcome, for which I'm grateful to you all.

@NEKNIM: Sorry, the "major cosmetic improvements" were ironical. I was actually referring to the various packages for Windows and Debian. Despite appearances, these things are quite fiddly to make, especially Microsoft Installer packages.


----------



## Snakepottery

Hi DMNC,

Is there a way of creating an icon that calls Terminal and then TG-Timer? It would be nice just to click the icon and away we go!

Thanks

Snake


dmnc said:


> Mac users, with the new version of tg (0.4.0) a few things have changed.
> 
> We now have versioned releases which will make it much easier to upgrade existing installations.
> 
> Everything below assumes that you have already managed to install Homebrew correctly. If you haven't, please see brew.sh
> 
> However, *if you installed originally using the --HEAD option*, you will need to do the following to get on the new versioned train:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> brew update
> brew uninstall tg
> brew install tg
> 
> For *new users*, everything is simple:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> brew install dmnc/horology/tg
> 
> After this, *upgrading* is easy:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> brew update
> brew upgrade tg
> 
> Please post here, or on the github repo (https://github.com/dmnc/homebrew-horology) if you have any issues specifically with mac installation.
> 
> Lastly, and very important, the executable has been renamed from *tg* to *tg-timer*, so to open the application, you now need to run
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> tg-timer


----------



## dmnc

Snakepottery said:


> Hi DMNC,
> 
> Is there a way of creating an icon that calls Terminal and then TG-Timer? It would be nice just to click the icon and away we go!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Snake


I've had a bit of a go but not with great success so far.

I agree, it would be a nice improvement but creating a gtk Mac app has proved pretty tricky, although it might be easier if tg is upgraded to gtk3 (something I believe contrate_wheel has considered).

I will try again when I get the chance but would also welcome any help if anybody here has experience of this?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## contrate_wheel

Snakepottery said:


> Is there a way of creating an icon that calls Terminal and then TG-Timer? It would be nice just to click the icon and away we go!


Hi!

Unfortunately homebrew seems to take a rather console-centric approach. As a workaround you might consider the Automator component of OS X. I have not used OS X for several years now, but the first answer here How to put a custom launcher in the Dock (Mavericks) might just be what you are looking for...


----------



## johnnyrelou

Snakepottery said:


> Hi DMNC,
> 
> Is there a way of creating an icon that calls Terminal and then TG-Timer? It would be nice just to click the icon and away we go!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Snake


Hi!

Just open the script editor and type the following code:



> *tell* _application_ "Terminal"
> *do script* "tg-timer"
> *end* *tell*


Save as app, and there you go! You can add an icon later on through the finder.









Anyway, just downloaded this app, I haven't used it a lot but it seems to be working pretty well with a cheap phone handsfree kit.
It's struggling to pick up some diver's noise but it seems to be working great on other watches.
I'll try tomorrow with a piezo mic but so far so good.

Keep up the good work!


----------



## contrate_wheel

Welcome to the forums johnnyrelou, and thank you for your instructions!


----------



## johnnyrelou

Thanks guys, I've been lurking this forum for too long it was a good opportunity to finally create an account. I'm glad I could help!


----------



## Snakepottery

Thanks Johnnyrelou, works a treat!
Snake


----------



## adamkov

I just wanted to say thank you for this awesome software. I use it extensively to monitor my watches.
Keep up with the good work and thank you for making this open source.


----------



## linux.author

fyi folks:

SECOND UPDATE: i'd like to thank WUS member '*Apollo83*' for his post in this thread, which shows the use of a Logitech webcam as a sound input device - after going through this thread twice i had a 'smack the forehead' moment when i realized i had one of these in a drawer - works under OS X and Raspbian (Debian GNU/Linux) - and now i have a much cleaner input source than the cheap lapel mic i had been futzing with - so thank you, sir!









UPDATE: tg-timer builds and runs just fine under the Raspberry Pi's Raspbian Debian ARM distro... i have it installed on an RPi3 with a CMedia USB mic input and 3.5" TFT LCD (client is run via a VNC screen-sharing session due to resolution constraints) - a little timing device for less than US$60!

very nice!

ORIGINAL:

- the Win7+ .msi version of tg installs and runs just fine under CrossOver on OS X 10.10.5....

(now off to find a decent mic)

+1 to the developer - very good work

willie
on the open-source Gulf of Mexico


----------



## nauz

A mic from a timegrapher wouldn't work with this? Just curious while trying to read what everyone has used so far.


----------



## Aku Ankka

I don't see why it wouldn't. I have two old Vibrograf mics and one has the original Rochelle salt microphone element and one modified with a modern piezo disc. The original one is much more sensitive, but they both work.


----------



## nauz

Aku Ankka said:


> I don't see why it wouldn't. I have two old Vibrograf mics and one has the original Rochelle salt microphone element and one modified with a modern piezo disc. The original one is much more sensitive, but they both work.


What's kinda plug do you have on them? I have a watchmaster mic that has a 1/4 inch male plug, was thinking of getting a modern one and converting the plug into headphone plug to work with this.


----------



## Aku Ankka

nauz said:


> What's kinda plug do you have on them? I have a watchmaster mic that has a 1/4 inch male plug, was thinking of getting a modern one and converting the plug into headphone plug to work with this.


The original Vibrograf plugs are proprietary, and they're both different. I actually had to make a suitable plug from scratch to fit my old B100.

For the TG, I just changed one of the cables to a standard shielded microphone cable and a ¼" mono plug connector, which then plugs into my Apogee Duet interface. The type of plug you need of course depends on what you want to plug your microphone into. Mine is an ideal scenario, since I have two separate mono 1/4" instrument inputs in my audio interface.

If your microphone has a standard 1/4" plug, all you really need is a 1/4" to 3.5mm headphone adapter to fit most sound cards.


----------



## nauz

Aku Ankka said:


> The original Vibrograf plugs are proprietary, and they're both different. I actually had to make a suitable plug from scratch to fit my old B100.
> 
> For the TG, I just changed one of the cables to a standard shielded microphone cable and a ¼" mono plug connector, which then plugs into my Apogee Duet interface. The type of plug you need of course depends on what you want to plug your microphone into. Mine is an ideal scenario, since I have two separate mono 1/4" instrument inputs in my audio interface.
> 
> If your microphone has a standard 1/4" plug, all you really need is a 1/4" to 3.5mm headphone adapter to fit most sound cards.


Could you take some photos and share them?


----------



## Aku Ankka

Sure. I'll do that later today. I have some work to do now.


----------



## nauz

Aku Ankka said:


> Sure. I'll do that later today. I have some work to do now.


Okay cool, thanks vary much Aku Ankka.


----------



## Aku Ankka

OK, so here's my modified cable for the Vibrograf mic. The nice thing about these mics is that you can just unscrew the whole cable and swap it to another similar mic. Anyway, this is the end result:









This is what goes inside the mic. The springy part is just an electrical connector and the spring allows it to bend as you change the position of the clamp. The knurled part is the negative terminal, which is connected to the shielding braid of the cable. In my case, the cable is two pole, and the white lead is not connected to anything. The red lead is connected to the positive terminal, which is the springy bit.








This is the other end of the cable. The red lead (positive) is connected to the center pin and the shielding braid (negative) is connected to the other terminal, which is basically the whole larger metal portion of the plug.









And finally, if your mic already happens to have a 1/4" plug, you could just use one of these headphone adapters if your sound card/interface only has 3.5mm input jacks. You don't need to worry about the adapter being stereo. You're simply using just one of the two channels and the other one is shorted to ground.


----------



## nauz

Aku Ankka said:


> OK, so here's my modified cable for the Vibrograf mic. The nice thing about these mics is that you can just unscrew the whole cable and swap it to another similar mic. Anyway, this is the end result:
> 
> View attachment 10112258
> 
> 
> This is what goes inside the mic. The springy part is just an electrical connector and the spring allows it to bend as you change the position of the clamp. The knurled part is the negative terminal, which is connected to the shielding braid of the cable. In my case, the cable is two pole, and the white lead is not connected to anything. The red lead is connected to the positive terminal, which is the springy bit.
> View attachment 10112274
> 
> 
> This is the other end of the cable. The red lead (positive) is connected to the center pin and the shielding braid (negative) is connected to the other terminal, which is basically the whole larger metal portion of the plug.
> 
> View attachment 10112314
> 
> 
> And finally, if your mic already happens to have a 1/4" plug, you could just use one of these headphone adapters if your sound card/interface only has 3.5mm input jacks. You don't need to worry about the adapter being stereo. You're simply using just one of the two channels and the other one is shorted to ground.
> 
> View attachment 10112362


Perfect, exactly what I had in mind. Vary much appreciated Aku Ankka, I dont think that this has been posted on this page yet so maybe people can get an idea. Awesome


----------



## Aku Ankka

Not a problem. It's a very simple mod and even if one doesn't have much experience with electronics, it's still very much doable on a very limited budget.


----------



## Aku Ankka

Now that I've been playing around with the software a bit, I thought I'd throw a few development suggestions out there:


-Average rate calculation over a period of time, say 1, 5 and 10 minutes for example. This is what the Witschi software does, and it is extremely handy. Ideally you should let the watch stabilize for something like 30 seconds to a minute and only then the software starts measuring. While the Witschi software does this automatically, TG could just have a button that you could click to start the selected measuring period. Once you have measured in 'all' six positions, you can easily read the results and draw your conclusions from them.

-Possibility to print out the results would be nice.


----------



## nauz

Aku Ankka said:


> Now that I've been playing around with the software a bit, I thought I'd throw a few development suggestions out there:
> 
> -Average rate calculation over a period of time, say 1, 5 and 10 minutes for example. This is what the Witschi software does, and it is extremely handy. Ideally you should let the watch stabilize for something like 30 seconds to a minute and only then the software starts measuring. While the Witschi software does this automatically, TG could just have a button that you could click to start the selected measuring period. Once you have measured in 'all' six positions, you can easily read the results and draw your conclusions from them.
> 
> -Possibility to print out the results would be nice.


Was gonna say printing would be cool.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Hi my friends!

Unfortunately I had very little time to play with tg lately... I would just say thanks to all of you for your feedback.

*@linux.author*: I'm happy to learn that tg works on ARM!

*@Aku Ankka, nauz*: Long term averaging and printing are definitely on the to-do list!


----------



## scoff

Just to answer my own question and to bring up this thread - this setup works just fine. It doesn't need a preamp and that piezo mic seems to be less prone to ambient noise than a regular iPhone headset.









1. Piezo Clip On Microphone Pickup for Acoustic Guitar (~$4)
2. Mono 1/4" female to 1/8" male adapter (~$1)
3. 3.5mm Male TRRS to 2 Female TRS Audio Connector TRRS Y Splitter Cable Adapter (~$2)
4. Vintage MacBook Pro (already owned).

The vital part is that TRRS adapter as you can't just plug your mono mic (TS) into the headphones jack, it won't work.

Also there's a neat little software called LineIn (free) that allows you to hear what TG hears, just plug your headphones into the second TRRS adapter jack.


----------



## nauz

Should be a sticky


----------



## 1afc

scoff said:


> Just to answer my own question and to bring up this thread - this setup works just fine. It doesn't need a preamp and that piezo mic seems to be less prone to ambient noise than a regular iPhone headset.
> 
> View attachment 10501418
> 
> 
> 1. Piezo Clip On Microphone Pickup for Acoustic Guitar (~$4)
> 2. Mono 1/4" female to 1/8" male adapter (~$1)
> 3. 3.5mm Male TRRS to 2 Female TRS Audio Connector TRRS Y Splitter Cable Adapter (~$2)
> 4. Vintage MacBook Pro (already owned).
> 
> The vital part is that TRRS adapter as you can't just plug your mono mic (TS) into the headphones jack, it won't work.
> 
> Also there's a neat little software called LineIn (free) that allows you to hear what TG hears, just plug your headphones into the second TRRS adapter jack.


Thanks for the detail scoff. 
The software is great but the pickup is a problem for me and this illustration is what I needed to identify a working part.

I also changed parts 2 and 3 to one of these because I wanted to go to USB.


----------



## EATT_VN

Many thanks to the developers and contributors for great TG software


----------



## jisham

EATT_VN said:


> Many thank to the developers and contributors for great TG software


How did you attach the piezo pickup to the ball head on that mini tripod? Is it just tape/gum/blue-tack, or something else?

Looks like a nice simple setup for measuring the watch in multiple positions.


----------



## EATT_VN

jisham said:


> How did you attach the piezo pickup to the ball head on that mini tripod? Is it just tape/gum/blue-tack, or something else?
> 
> Looks like a nice simple setup for measuring the watch in multiple positions.


Hi @jisham
I used an adhesive tape pictured below (sorry I don't know the word for that). Yes I do use this setup for measuring the watch in multiple positions.


----------



## quadrifoglio

First of all I want to congratulate you on this brilliant software, it is so simple, and easy to use.

I would like to know what kind of calibration is this in the upper right corner?
Also, you said something about samplerate, would it be better to use 192khz instead of 44.1khz?


----------



## 1afc

quadrifoglio said:


> First of all I want to congratulate you on this brilliant software, it is so simple, and easy to use.
> 
> I would like to know what kind of calibration is this in the upper right corner?
> Also, you said something about samplerate, would it be better to use 192khz instead of 44.1khz?


I think post #169 should be able to help you here. (June 3 2016)


----------



## sebastienb

Thanks for this awesome software, seems to work nicely with my Samson Go Mic microphone (the sec/day matches with the average time deviation I measured during 24 hours for one of my watch). I got some question though :

- What are the top indicators in plain language for the layman ? The s/d indicator is simple but what about the others ?
- What is lift angle, how important is it to set it properly and how its value can be obtained ? (my only interested is measuring accuracy in seconds per day)

Thanks in advance


----------



## LightDot

A good source to start exploring how to interpret timegrapher data is the Witschi training course, Measuring Technology and Troubleshooting for Watches, the PDF is freely available on the internet.

A lift angle is a fixed value, determined by the design of the movement. All these, the lift angle, the amplitude and the beat error, are explained in the PDF above.

Anyway, a lift angle setting of 52 degrees is a somewhat safe assumption for modern movements, although far from all have a lift angle of 52 degrees. If a movement, for example, has a lift angle of 54.5 degrees, wrongly presetting it to 52 degrees would affect the amplitude reading on a timegrapher.

For the above example (52 instead of the 54.5 degrees), if a timegrapher shows an amplitude of:
- 300 degrees, the real amplitude is 314.6 degrees
- 200 degrees, the real amplitude is 209.6 degrees.

So, an error of roughly 4 to 6 degrees of amplitude for each degree of the lift angle delta.

If you're just interested in the daily rate, the lift angle isn't important. But the amplitude value is one of the most tell-telling indicators of the watch movement's health. The amplitude when fully wound, the difference in amplitude between positions and the difference in amplitude 24h later tell you a lot about the condition your watch is in.


----------



## LightDot

I have packaged TG for Arch Linux. As of today, it is available in AUR:

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/tg/

Unless someone beats me to it, I'll do the same for Fedora and perhaps CentOS (EPEL) in the future.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Hi LightDot! I very much appreciate you packaging tg for Arch Linux (actually I always admired the level technical expertise of Arch Linux users). CentOS and Fedora would also be extremely welcome additions for me, in particular considering that deb (which tg already has) and rpm packages will cover most Linux pc users. I would be glad to link or host rpm packages for tg on my download page (https://tg.ciovil.li) if you agree. Also, if you need any help, feel free to contact me, or to submit feature/pull requests on github.

Yesterday, I received a user manual for tg written by a member of this forum (to whom I am very grateful for this contribution). I still have to take a look at it, but I am confident that he will soon make it publicly available!

On the development side, I am working on a save/snapshot/print feature. To be implemented properly, this feature required a relatively extensive rearrangement of the source code, but, time permitting, it will be ready sooner or later.


----------



## LightDot

Hi contrate_wheel! It's a pleasure to help!

I'll get in contact when the RPMs are done. Either linking or hosting the packages would be great, we'll set it up. It will take longer to push them into Fedora and EPEL, as there is a procedure involved and it takes time.

Also, excellent news in regards to the upcoming features and the documentation. I'm looking forward to upgrading the packages with the new version(s)!


----------



## jcoffin1981

I just purchased the microset clamping watch sensor as well as the amplitude sensor. I can't wait to try it out. The limitations of the bare bones it comes with has it's limitations.


----------



## jht3

wanted to thank the developer for putting together this software. especially making it available for both Windows and Linux. while i got the windows binaries to run and compiled the source on opensuse (rpm distro), my efforts to calibrate against a quartz and time two automatic movements have been not very successful.


i believe my issues all relate to the microphone. I've tried the integrated mic's on two thinkpads; a T400 running Win7 and a X240 running Win7 and Opensuse. Sometimes I get the software to get a clean enough signal to show the amplitude but it is not reliable or repeatable. I also tried a iPhone headset with the TRRS jack on the X240 with a similar experience, but usually even more noise. Finally I tried a Korg guitar pickup with a mono 1/4 -> 1/8 adapter, but I just don't think the signal is strong enough without a pre-amp. what are others using for mixer gain settings for the mic and boost?


Are there known inexpensive pre-amps that others use? I found schematics for a few diy versions, but a popular one like as described on watchoscope, was shot down on this forum as not being ideal due to the hi and low pass filters. i am handy with a soldering iron, multimeter, etc so I'm inclined to go this route if a tried and true schematic can be recommended. i'd probably buy all the parts through mouser.com as my local radioshack is both expensive and not well stocked.


----------



## dmnc

jht3 said:


> wanted to thank the developer for putting together this software. especially making it available for both Windows and Linux. while i got the windows binaries to run and compiled the source on opensuse (rpm distro), my efforts to calibrate against a quartz and time two automatic movements have been not very successful.
> 
> i believe my issues all relate to the microphone. I've tried the integrated mic's on two thinkpads; a T400 running Win7 and a X240 running Win7 and Opensuse. Sometimes I get the software to get a clean enough signal to show the amplitude but it is not reliable or repeatable. I also tried a iPhone headset with the TRRS jack on the X240 with a similar experience, but usually even more noise. Finally I tried a Korg guitar pickup with a mono 1/4 -> 1/8 adapter, but I just don't think the signal is strong enough without a pre-amp. what are others using for mixer gain settings for the mic and boost?
> 
> Are there known inexpensive pre-amps that others use? I found schematics for a few diy versions, but a popular one like as described on watchoscope, was shot down on this forum as not being ideal due to the hi and low pass filters. i am handy with a soldering iron, multimeter, etc so I'm inclined to go this route if a tried and true schematic can be recommended. i'd probably buy all the parts through mouser.com as my local radioshack is both expensive and not well stocked.


I've had good results with something like this










If you search the bay for "clip on piezo" you will find them for a few pounds.

I then use a similarly priced USB audio interface and a quarter to eighth adaptor like you already have.

All in I think I spent about five quid.

I do have one extraordinarily quiet vintage Seiko I've had difficulties with, but for everything else this setup has worked perfectly.


----------



## jht3

dmnc said:


> I've had good results with something like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you search the bay for "clip on piezo" you will find them for a few pounds.
> 
> I then use a similarly priced USB audio interface and a quarter to eighth adaptor like you already have.
> 
> All in I think I spent about five quid.
> 
> I do have one extraordinarily quiet vintage Seiko I've had difficulties with, but for everything else this setup has worked perfectly.


ok, i have practically the same clip-on unit. mine is Korg branded. also tried a logitech usb interface i had in a drawer from an old headset. if anything, that interface is worse than the integrated soundcard, when it comes to noise.

what are your configs for gain? i've tried all combos, and tg refuses to show three or four green dots, will jump between a green and yellow scope, and just never "locks on" and settles down.

the '60s Bucherer 18000bps movement has a cleaner signal (flatter between the tick and tock). the new NH35is very noisy and unclean across the board.


----------



## jisham

jht3 said:


> Are there known inexpensive pre-amps that others use? I found schematics for a few diy versions, but a popular one like as described on watchoscope, was shot down on this forum as not being ideal due to the hi and low pass filters. i am handy with a soldering iron, multimeter, etc so I'm inclined to go this route if a tried and true schematic can be recommended. i'd probably buy all the parts through mouser.com as my local radioshack is both expensive and not well stocked.


 I appreciate the DIY attitude, and like you, I was tempted to build my own pre-amp once before, but....

a) This software seems to work well without a pre-amp. I think he's got some special-sauce DSP tricks, but it seems to work with pretty much any cheap old mic.

b) Look for a mic gain or mic boost setting on your computer for the mic input.

c) I'll assume 1 & 2 didn't work for you, since you asked the question. As noted, the watchoscope pre-amp is perhaps not the best for this application, as the high frequencies are cut (low pass), and that's where some of the interesting detail used by this program lives.

d) There are some cheap pre-amps on the market, if you know where to look. Cheap enough to make DIY questionable, although if you want to learn to wield a soldering iron and have the satisfaction of building your own, go for it! you have my support.

e) You can find outboard phono pre-amps (like for record turntables - remember them?), but they are getting harder to find, and sometimes have audiophile price tags (it must be good, it was expensive!). Surprisingly, a nice source that seems to be available cheaply on amazon is guitar pre-amps. You may have to solder your mic or piezo element to it yourself. Last I checked they were less than $20 on amazon (but I haven't verified this recently). Even better, many of them have a 3 band EQ built in. I'd leave the highs and mids untouched, but I have a lot of 50-60Hz noise, so a little low cut can go a long way to cleaning up the signal.

[Disclaimer- I've never tried these pre-amps personally, I pulled out an idle small mixer for the same purpose before I bought the pre-amp. But as I remember when I was researching them, many people have used them with success].



jht3 said:


> wanted to thank the developer for putting together this software. especially making it available for both Windows and Linux. while i got the windows binaries to run and compiled the source on opensuse (rpm distro), my efforts to calibrate against a quartz and time two automatic movements have been not very successful.


 Agreed... Linux user here, and it worked right out the box!

If you are up for some hardware hacking, there are some affordable GPS boards that can be used as a timing reference, using the PPS ("Pulse Per Second") signal to calibrate this software. It will require some basic soldering, but can't be beat for cheap and accurate. I don't want to get too far off topic here, so do some searching the the High-Accuracy Quartz forum, or contact me for more details (or if there is interest and the OP says it's on-topic I can post here).


----------



## jht3

as i said, i have the most success with the integrated mic's in both laptops, but both pick up background noise and laying the watch on the screen makes it a challenge to check the timing in numerous positions. it does have numerous options in the mixer (Alsa and alsamixer), and I've tried so many combinations my head is spinning.

my USB audio device just doesn't have enough gain adjustment i fear. checking the signal in audacity, i can see very faint ticks, but they aren't a solid vertical line like in some of the screen captures here. the mixer options are very basic so i don't think i'm overlooking anything. the icon in the upper right of TG will flicker between red and green but has a very difficult time "locking on". i've gotten it to do it once or twice but it isn't repeatable.

while a PPS signal would be ideal, i have been able to calibrate the integrated and usb devices against a casio quartz.

i did see a few guitar pre-amps that i could hack to make work, but hate to dump 10-20 on an untested part. all the phono pre-amps seem to be $$$ these days.

one thing that is a problem is knowing which audio device TG is selecting. i'm not convinced i have alsa configured properly to set the "default" to one of the three devices my laptop has.

i'll keep trying and update if i get any repeatable success.


----------



## Aku Ankka

I just ordered a bunch of new toys. I may be able to shed a little light on this microphone issue in a few weeks as my toys arrive in the mail. We'll see what comes out of it, if anything useful.


----------



## jisham

jht3 said:


> one thing that is a problem is knowing which audio device TG is selecting. i'm not convinced i have alsa configured properly to set the "default" to one of the three devices my laptop has.


I see you mentioned alsa, so I assume you're running some version of Linux. I've gotten a bit lost with the march of progress in linux sound systems over the years, but my recent installations seem to be running pulseaudio by default. Any chance you're running pulse? It seems to like to clone interfaces on the fly when a new program is started, so identifying the sound device can be tricky. The best trick I've found so far is to launch pavucontrol. When you launch tg, you should see a new recording device created. If everything is set up right with the audio levels, you should be able to see the ticks as bounces in the volume bar on that device.

Also, sometimes the mic positioning can be a bit ticky. Try moving it around the watch. I think some people have even reported success with the mic right on the crown.


----------



## jht3

jisham said:


> I see you mentioned alsa, so I assume you're running some version of Linux. I've gotten a bit lost with the march of progress in linux sound systems over the years, but my recent installations seem to be running pulseaudio by default. Any chance you're running pulse? It seems to like to clone interfaces on the fly when a new program is started, so identifying the sound device can be tricky. The best trick I've found so far is to launch pavucontrol. When you launch tg, you should see a new recording device created. If everything is set up right with the audio levels, you should be able to see the ticks as bounces in the volume bar on that device.


nope, OpenSuse Tumbleweed doesn't install any of the pulse audio cruft. pure alsa. although it may be easier to use the pulseaudio gui's to configure which device is doing what.



jisham said:


> Also, sometimes the mic positioning can be a bit ticky. Try moving it around the watch. I think some people have even reported success with the mic right on the crown.


oh yes. although w/ a clip-on mic the positions are a bit limited, i've tried both the case back and front and 360* around. sometimes i can get TG on linux to start picking up a signal. not as much success w/ TG on Windows. no clue why.

haven't had much time to continue to play w/ this. i was able to regulate the NH35 using the integrated mic from an average of -14.8s/d to +2.2s/d. this movement is VERY position sensitive, so i chose to aim for -2s/d in the 6up and 3up and let the dial up +13s/d help overnight to keep a good "worn" average.


----------



## Seahawk

I would like to thank the developer for the lovely software. I tried it with small 27mm piezo sensor (Clip on guitar sensors will be ok as well) and Kemo M040N preamp with 9v battery and I only could say WOW.


----------



## jisham

jht3 said:


> nope, OpenSuse Tumbleweed doesn't install any of the pulse audio cruft. pure alsa. although it may be easier to use the pulseaudio gui's to configure which device is doing what.


 I agree, alsa is much cleaner, even if it doesn't have the pretty configuration gui's.

I had to look up how to change the default sound card in alsa:

linux - How to make Alsa pick a preferred sound device automatically? - Super User

short version:

find the card name,



Code:


and then create /etc/asound.conf with following:
  
pcm.!default {     
   type hw     
   card 1 
<closebrace>

ctl.!default { 
    type hw 
    card 1 
<closebrace>

[I can't figure out how to keep this site from mapping my closing braces to something else, replace <closebrace> with the single character closing brace]


----------



## gridiron

First my compliments on the TG software, it ran straight off the files on a Win7 Thinkpad. I've been having fun for a few days now, with no pick up problems using the onboard mic. I learnt a very long time ago that the less you put in the audio path the better.
For what my tuppence is worth...

Gridiron


----------



## jht3

gridiron said:


> First my compliments on the TG software, it ran straight off the files on a Win7 Thinkpad. I've been having fun for a few days now, with no pick up problems using the onboard mic. I learnt a very long time ago that the less you put in the audio path the better.
> For what my tuppence is worth...
> 
> Gridiron


actually, it does run decently with the onboard mic. bu t with two small children running around, it can be a challenge to eliminate background noise! i'm also looking for a better solution than holding my watch against the screen with a rubber band so i can check it in multiple positions.

at this point, i'm satisified with this 80% solution. i'll still probably cobble together some parts to build up a pre-amp, but not anytime soon, for the 100% solution.


----------



## jht3

jisham said:


> I agree, alsa is much cleaner, even if it doesn't have the pretty configuration gui's.
> 
> I had to look up how to change the default sound card in alsa:
> 
> linux - How to make Alsa pick a preferred sound device automatically? - Super User
> 
> short version:
> 
> find the card name,
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> and then create /etc/asound.conf with following:
> 
> pcm.!default {
> type hw
> card 1
> <closebrace>
> 
> ctl.!default {
> type hw
> card 1
> <closebrace>
> 
> [I can't figure out how to keep this site from mapping my closing braces to something else, replace <closebrace> with the single character closing brace]


i did use this config to set the default to my usb device. thanks for posting this for others that might be in the same boat.


----------



## gridiron

@jht3, to get rid of the holding problem and eliminate most of the background noise I started with a tiny dod of blutack over one micro and a thin donut on the back, (or the crystal), of the watch to stick it over the the other microphone. Then all I need to do then is rotate my laptop for the positions and take up yoga to see the screen. Traffic and neighbour noises are no longer disturbing. Try it!
Grid.


----------



## NeoSeoul2084

Is there anything I need to do to get tg to give me a consistent reading? It keeps changing from between -5 to -30 and it's making regulating a pain. I'm using one of those clip on guitar mics and a usb sound card.

Is there a way to get it to display the AVERAGE reading over 30 seconds instead of constantly fluctuating?


----------



## gridiron

NeoSoul2084, Have a look at the graph on the left side of the display. Is it 'porpoising' (rhythmic changes, repeatedly) ? Do you have a steady 4 green bars for signal strength without interruptions? The bottom graphic should only show beat noises and no noise or spiky bits in between. Can you do a screenshot?

I'm asking because apart from background noise, mains hum, magnetic fields from cables etc will all affect what is being fed into the software.

Grid


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Hey friends, I uploaded a video to youtube about the software, please take a look.


----------



## andy1m

Working great using a guitar pickup, running Mint 18.1 64bit. But failed to detect Seiko Monster's beat, probably have to open it.

It's a great piece of software. Thank you *contrate_wheel*!


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## Ciro

Hi chaps,
I'm trying to get TG working but I just find one problem after other, and don't really know where to head now.

When I had Windows, I managed to get inconsistent signal on TG. I tried to regulate my watch, using a piezo mic, but the signal was so inconsistent that it was impossible.
I tried some external USB sondcard, but didn't work.
I think didn't work, because the signal from the piezo mic, is pretty small, and needs amplification. And the sound card I used, didn't amplified.

Now I got Linux, is worst. I don't even get a weak signal, now TG is completely dead. 
When I connect a normal mic on my Laptop, (and don't use TG) ... I get a normal signal on Pulseaudio and Audacity. However, normal mic on TG, not signal at all, completely dead. Because I am new in Linux, I don't know if I could increase the mic's gain. If this is not possible, I don't want to waste more time with this, and try something else.

If I can not increase the mic gain on my Linux, then I was thinking to try one of these: USB guitar interface. The problem is it doesn't seem to work on Linux (only on Windows, or Mc)... so a new problem o|.

If the USB interface does not work,... well ... the only thing I can think of is to use a proper mic preamp. This must work. But must be some DIY job to connect to the PC, (and, I don't know about electronics) .
I just have one mechanical watch, and under normal circumstances we only need to regulate a watch once. So to buy a preamp; and the DIY just to one off, ... don't know if its worth it.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Hi my friend,

since you say that Audacity is working for you, please record about one minute of sound from your favorite watch, at a reasonable gain setting, and send it to me, or even better post it here. With it I will try to diagnose the problem.


----------



## scholzie

I'm thinking of porting this to Arduino to create an open source design for the hardware. It would be similar to the Weishi Timegrapher. Does anyone want to join in on development?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 1afc

Ciro said:


> Hi chaps,
> I'm trying to get TG working but I just find one problem after other, and don't really know where to head now.
> 
> When I had Windows, I managed to get inconsistent signal on TG. I tried to regulate my watch, using a piezo mic, but the signal was so inconsistent that it was impossible.
> I tried some external USB sondcard, but didn't work.
> I think didn't work, because the signal from the piezo mic, is pretty small, and needs amplification. And the sound card I used, didn't amplified.
> 
> Now I got Linux, is worst. I don't even get a weak signal, now TG is completely dead.
> When I connect a normal mic on my Laptop, (and don't use TG) ... I get a normal signal on Pulseaudio and Audacity. However, normal mic on TG, not signal at all, completely dead. Because I am new in Linux, I don't know if I could increase the mic's gain. If this is not possible, I don't want to waste more time with this, and try something else.
> 
> If I can not increase the mic gain on my Linux, then I was thinking to try one of these: USB guitar interface. The problem is it doesn't seem to work on Linux (only on Windows, or Mc)... so a new problem o|.
> 
> If the USB interface does not work,... well ... the only thing I can think of is to use a proper mic preamp. This must work. But must be some DIY job to connect to the PC, (and, I don't know about electronics) .
> I just have one mechanical watch, and under normal circumstances we only need to regulate a watch once. So to buy a preamp; and the DIY just to one off, ... don't know if its worth it.


The software, including calibration, has always worked very well for me on Windoze. 
However, I have had a Dickens trying to get a mic to work.
I've started up a thread on mic only and the suggestions have been pre amps etc. I didn't want to go to that complexity yet. 
However, on a windows notebook the inbuilt mic worked very well. 
I have also found that web cam mics are also pretty good at filtering noise and when I plugged one in to the USB on my desktop I got a good stable scan.

I have found that any extraneous noise really hurts the signal. I know it's dumb but I was showing my brother how tg worked and we were talking softly in the background and that totally wrecked the signal. 
For those that are ready to write "Well what did you expect!" the answer is I didn't think about it until I had a problem. Doh!

HTH


----------



## 1afc

scholzie said:


> I'm thinking of porting this to Arduino to create an open source design for the hardware. It would be similar to the Weishi Timegrapher. Does anyone want to join in on development?


I have recently bought an Arduino Uno but I'm a complete noob. 
Willing to do things that are within my capability but I'm expecting that this is going to involve reading an analog signal so therefore there has to be an external mic and probably amp. 
Would it not be more productive to just produce a great mic/preamp and use the standard tg?
At least I'd suggest an external mic would be the starting point and when that works then port to Arduino?


----------



## prasitw

These are amplifier and guitar pickup microphone clip on. You can get the good signal from them. 
Amplifier: Linep
Guitar pickup microphone clip on: Cherub or Korg


----------



## pbnelson

Linux Mint has an excellent sound utility that lets you select the default audio input device and adjust the amplification level. If you don't know where to find it, just try searching for the "sound" application. For other distros: Google is your friend. Apart from that, there are numerous USB sound cards under $10, with separate mic. inputs, compatible with Linux - no special device driver installation required. I recently got one from Sabrent that would fit the bill.


----------



## scholzie

1afc said:


> I have recently bought an Arduino Uno but I'm a complete noob.
> Willing to do things that are within my capability but I'm expecting that this is going to involve reading an analog signal so therefore there has to be an external mic and probably amp.
> Would it not be more productive to just produce a great mic/preamp and use the standard tg?
> At least I'd suggest an external mic would be the starting point and when that works then port to Arduino?


This project isn't about just getting it working. I'd like to expand upon it and use the real time processing benefits that a microcontroller brings to the table. Getting tg to work with a mic isn't difficult. A piezo actuator with some vibration isolation is sufficient. You can add an EQ (or a tuned band pass filter) in line to isolate the sound even better.

In your case, it would be much more productive to use a good mic and tg on a PC. Porting to Arduino will take a bit of doing... Tg's algorithms should be easy to port - they're already in C - but there's no input sound processing or display output there.

I'd also like to put in a lift angle input for an amplitude calculator, which I don't know the equations for. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out though.

I think using a microcontroller will make it easier to pick out the five shock event sounds and actually calculate beat error, rather than just +/- s/day, but that will all come later after I get the basic version working.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## contrate_wheel

@scholzie.

Building an arduino-based timegrapher is surely going to be fun and good experience for you. For what I can, I will do my best to contribute my two cents if you have any questions.

Porting tg to arduino is probably not going to work. Virtually all software timegraphers except tg use the same simple approach of detecting a sound when a certain threshold is exceeded. Tg, on the other hand, was designed as an experiment around a different method. As you will see from tg's cpu usage, it is far too hungry of computational horsepower to work on a microcontroller. On such a small machine, the traditional approach would be probably a better choice. (Or maybe you can set up some sort of phase locked loop to detect the period and work from there...)

Remember that real time capability is not a plus to make a timegrapher. A sound signal is just a sequence of samples: if you process them instantly, after one second, or after an hour, the information contained in them is not going to change. Real time will be a plus, however, if you want to add some fancy gadget to it, for instance a stroboscopic light.

A possible caveat: before even beginning, I would suggest to test the accuracy and stability of arduino's clock (not the rtc, the one that governs the sampling frequency of your adc). If the clock turns out to be bad, there is little one can do.


----------



## Ciro

Thanks Contrate_Wheel for help. 

And thanks for this open source programme.



As you suggested, I recorded about a minute with Audacity, and I am trying to post it. But its an .aup file. This kind of file are not allowed to upload on this forum.

How can I send you the recording?


----------



## contrate_wheel

@Ciro: Thanks. I sent you a PM.


----------



## Ticonderoga

Does this work on Windows XP?


----------



## Raydius

scholzie said:


> I'm thinking of porting this to Arduino to create an open source design for the hardware. It would be similar to the Weishi Timegrapher. Does anyone want to join in on development?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


in. pm me!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## contrate_wheel

Ticonderoga said:


> Does this work on Windows XP?


It should. If you find any problems, please report them...


----------



## Ciro

Ticonderoga said:


> Does this work on Windows XP?


 I tried TG, on my XP laptop, and didn't work. I got a very weak and inconsistent signal, so impossible to use it.

I guess, it didn't work on my XP laptop because my soundcard was very basic.


For those of us, who got weak signal. I found a open source programme called: Guitarix, Virtual guitar amplifier.


I was wondering if this could fix the problem of TG low signal. If this programme some how could feed TG.

What do you think?


----------



## djolemag

Downloaded today Win binaries, works out of the box at Win10 x64... Really great stuff. Tried with builtin mic but it had too much noise. Then I tried with my phone's headphone/mic at it worked nicely. Since I'm away from home, I have only one watch to test, without calibration...
But...
When we speak about calibration, is it possible to use some prerecorded sample audio file from accurate source, which can be played on some MP3 or similar, so we can get proper calibration sequence instead of using quartz clocks?
Just a bare idea, but sort of could be interesting...


----------



## alvh

djolemag said:


> ak about calibration, is it possible to use some prerecorded sample audio file from accurate source, which can be played on some MP3 or similar, so we can get proper calibration sequence instead of using quartz clocks?


I think that would require the MP3 to play through the same soundcard input as the pickup microphone - it's probably easier to just use a cheap quartz watch...


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

this might add not less than another imprecision or even two, if you replay the sounds with a diffent device than recorded.


----------



## Iandk

djolemag said:


> When we speak about calibration, is it possible to use some prerecorded sample audio file from accurate source, which can be played on some MP3 or similar, so we can get proper calibration sequence instead of using quartz clocks?


Probably wouldn't work, since then you're using an uncalibrated DAC to play the file, so you'd have no idea if your resulting audio actually ends up faster or slower than it should be.

If you ran it through the same sound card that you're recording from... chances are it's using the same oscillator time reference for its DAC (for playback) and ADC (for recording), so there's no way actually tell if your sound card is running fast or slow if you do it that way.

Nevermind that whatever you recorded the sample audio file had to have a properly calibrated ADC to begin with...


----------



## 1afc

Iandk said:


> Probably wouldn't work, since then you're using an uncalibrated DAC to play the file, so you'd have no idea if your resulting audio actually ends up faster or slower than it should be.
> 
> If you ran it through the same sound card that you're recording from... chances are it's using the same oscillator time reference for its DAC (for playback) and ADC (for recording), so there's no way actually tell if your sound card is running fast or slow if you do it that way.
> 
> Nevermind that whatever you recorded the sample audio file had to have a properly calibrated ADC to begin with...


I have tg on two computers, desktop and laptop.

Desktop calibration is -8.2 sec.

Laptop is +2 sec.

This I believe supports IandK completely.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Hi my friends!

Just a little message to announce the new version of tg, namely Tg 0.5.0.

New features include:
- Ability to take and save snapshots
- The distinction between light and regular version has been eliminated (it is now a setting)
- Minor improvements to the user interface

Snapshots are just what you think they are. The new version of tg can load and save files, which are basically archives of snapshots.

Windows, debian, and source code distributions are as usual available at:
https://tg.ciovil.li
https://github.com/vacaboja/tg

I have been in contact with dmnc, who has already tested the new version on Mac OS X. He will surely produce a homebrew install script for it shortly. (Thanks a lot dmnc for your continued support of Tg on OS X.)

On the technical side (for those interested):
- Version 3 of GTK+ has replaced version 2 as the widget library for Tg
- Thanks to an excellent contribution of Stefan Talpalaru, the build system is now based on GNU autotools.

Comments, suggestions, bug reports are as always very welcome!

PS: alvh, Klaus, landk, 1afc: completely agree, thanks for answering djolemag's question!


----------



## djolemag

Iandk said:


> Probably wouldn't work, since then you're using an uncalibrated DAC to play the file, so you'd have no idea if your resulting audio actually ends up faster or slower than it should be.
> 
> If you ran it through the same sound card that you're recording from... chances are it's using the same oscillator time reference for its DAC (for playback) and ADC (for recording), so there's no way actually tell if your sound card is running fast or slow if you do it that way.
> 
> Nevermind that whatever you recorded the sample audio file had to have a properly calibrated ADC to begin with...


Sorry for late reply, I'm away from home (vacation) so internet connection knows to be awful in accommodation facilities.
On my second thought, I see you are absolutely right... That was my first idea to get some more precise reference than unknown precision quartz clock. However, when I think further, quartz clock is stable reference because it is ticking in equal intervals between ticks, even if it is not accurate in 24h period, TG will detect "offset" or error of that quartz watch, right?
So, we apply that calibration offset and it should be ok?

Please correct me if I'm wrong....


----------



## djolemag

BTW, excellent job with newest version 0.5 TG, thanks! Snapshots are really needed.


----------



## dmnc

contrate_wheel said:


> I have been in contact with dmnc, who has already tested the new version on Mac OS X. He will surely produce a homebrew install script for it shortly. (Thanks a lot dmnc for your continued support of Tg on OS X.)


The homebrew tap has now been updated so 0.5.0 on the Mac should be a simple


Code:


brew upgrade tg

 if you already have it or


Code:


brew install dmnc/horology/tg

 if you're just getting started.

I've been battling in vain with trying to create a pre-built mac app to ease installation but with little luck so far. If anybody has any experience bundling gtk+3 apps for the mac please do drop me a PM.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 1afc

Thanks for 0.50 contrate_wheel. 

Just keeps getting better.


----------



## djolemag

I'm sure people already asked for, I've read the whole thread, but I would like to concisely highlight few features/upgrades that should be added.
1. Start/stop/pause/restart features : very convenient when you change the position of watch, so false/error readings (during change of position) are not written 
2. Someone already mentioned lift angle in decimals... I know it will not cause too much errors, but maybe to reconsider adding it
3. Screenshots are really nice feature. One or two textboxes on mainscreen for comment would be great, so you can add what watch you measured in what position. Also, have you though of putting timestamp on screenshot, very convenient feature?
4. Printing ... AS I understood, it is in TODO list... My opinion is that it should have only measured values and paper graph - dots. Finally, it is enough to print it into PDF, then everyone can print it to physical printer if needed... Very common way for many diagnostic equipment.

Thank you once again for this great software !


----------



## djolemag

Also, I've seen a lot of people are using piezo microphone with amplifier.. So it is not a general problem, but I couldn't figure out about audio input: should be stereo or mono? If stereo, I have to wire it in parallel to get same signal on L and R channel? 
I'm strongly for piezo pickup because reduction of environmental noise...


----------



## alvh

djolemag said:


> quartz clock is stable reference because it is ticking in equal intervals between ticks, even if it is not accurate in 24h period, TG will detect "offset" or error of that quartz watch, right?
> So, we apply that calibration offset and it should be ok?


That's not completely correct, I think. In my understanding, the calibration function in Tg assumes that the quartz watch is an accurate reference. The offset is calculated with the quartz as reference. 
The author, contrate_wheel, explained the background in this post, especially the technical details near the middle of the post might be interesting for you.


----------



## alvh

Sorry I can't edit the previous post - can't include the link for some reason. It's post29970370 in this thread!


----------



## djolemag

Yes, I read that post about calibration procedure. Idea is to take quartz watch as reference and compare it to sound card, because sound card is not so accurate (also described in that post). I'm just little confused about mentioned "correction procedure" of quartz watch, because it goes usually fast +10 s/day. So what is the real accurate reference? What is the result of calibration procedure ? Is it diff between quartz clock and sound card clock?
If so, we can use digital metronome too, they are declared as accurate, they usually have audio output, adjustable beat rate etc...
The reason I'm talking about whole this stuff is:
conventional timegraphers are usually calibrated in factory to same reference timing source, so they will all have very similar results. They also have same sound pickup method, so inputs in state machine are pretty solid, right? So you can expect similar results with some small error rate...
TG is excellent idea, ingenious algorithm, it should be used to it's limits. If we don't have sort of standardized pickup and time reference, we can not compare results precisely, right?
I'm thinking of running it on dedicated platform (RPI3 with some Linux, even better try would be Android tablet (ARM or x86) with some Linux distro), so now I'm picking up best practice tips regarding sound pickup and calibration.
I know it can be done via GPS, for example, have to study it in more details... But I think it would be overkill, because result values are not in that precision range as GPS time reference. 
Building some stable oscillator reference would be "long road" too, even if I'm sure there must be some ready modules out there... So I'm trying to get best effort reference.

Pretty much we have excellent product here... Imagine you can have this software running on some embedded platform (like RPI or similar). It is affordable, you know what is "inside", it is upgrade-able etc.
So, open questions like sound pickup and calibration would be 99% of that road.
I' not speaking about price. If you compare price of RPI+Sound Pickup+Some Display+Miscellaneous stuff, it is similar to cheap timegrapher machine from Far East... But it is huge difference if you build it, you can debug it, upgrade, service etc... Not to mention contribution of members of such a large community of watch hobbyist and enthusiasts. 
Thank you, please share your thoughts.


----------



## contrate_wheel

First, many thanks to *dmnc* for the mac installer!

*Djolemag* makes many good suggestions, for which I am very grateful. Let me express my opinion on them one by one...



djolemag said:


> 1. Start/stop/pause/restart features : very convenient when you change the position of watch, so false/error readings (during change of position) are not written


This one is not complicated to implement. I'm trying to evaluate whether it would be an really needed. The most straightforward way to keep track of various position is to time them separately (hitting clear between one and the next), make one snapshot per position, and then save all the snapshots together in the same file using the "save all snapshots" option. Notice that you can name snapshots, so you can call them with the name of the respective positions.



djolemag said:


> 2. Someone already mentioned lift angle in decimals... I know it will not cause too much errors, but maybe to reconsider adding it


It mostly boils down to what you find less annoying. Without decimals, it's quicker to adjust with the up and down arrows (ten times less clicks for equal adjustments). With decimals, you have the peace of mind that if your movement is 51.4 you can set precisely 51.4. Technically, those 0.4 degs do not make any difference at all. Possibly the best solution is to allow decimals and program the arrows to jump by integer steps (those who want decimals still can enter them via keyboard). I will put this on the todo list.



djolemag said:


> 3. Screenshots are really nice feature. One or two textboxes on mainscreen for comment would be great, so you can add what watch you measured in what position.


The name of the snapshots is editable, and allows you to do precisely that. You suggest a larger text area?



djolemag said:


> Also, have you though of putting timestamp on screenshot, very convenient feature?


Great idea. This is definitely near the top of the todo list.



djolemag said:


> 4. Printing ... AS I understood, it is in TODO list... My opinion is that it should have only measured values and paper graph - dots. Finally, it is enough to print it into PDF, then everyone can print it to physical printer if needed... Very common way for many diagnostic equipment.


Yes, that's more or less how I envisage the printouts. It's a lot of code to implement, that's why it is not yet there. The move to GTK+3 of the latest version will allow me to merge some code from an old pull-request of a GitHub user named wahlstedt (I think he is also a member here) that implements a prototype for printing...



djolemag said:


> Also, I've seen a lot of people are using piezo microphone with amplifier.. So it is not a general problem, but I couldn't figure out about audio input: should be stereo or mono? If stereo, I have to wire it in parallel to get same signal on L and R channel?
> I'm strongly for piezo pickup because reduction of environmental noise...


For now, tg takes the default audio input and makes the average of the two stereo channels. Selection of audio input is also something that needs to be improved in tg, and there is also material in this direction in wahlstedt's pull request.

Finally, I completely agree with *alvh* on this.



alvh said:


> That's not completely correct etc.


Tg is just a comparator that, indirectly, checks a mechanical watch under test against a reference quartz watch, using the clock of a sound card to transfer this information. It's like weighing an apple against a kilogram weight by first using the weight to calibrate a scale and then using the scale to weigh the apple. A quartz watch is usually good enough for the job, unless you seek the very ultimate haute horologerie kind of precision.

*One last note.* Snapshots are not just screenshots. The format is actually numeric, this means that if you see a snapshot on a tg window of a different size, or even on a different computer running a different operating system, the snapshot will still look, in a sense, as good as new. More importantly, when we finally have printing, all snapshots even taken today will be pretty-printable by just loading and hitting "print".


----------



## contrate_wheel

djolemag said:


> Yes, I read that post about calibration procedure. Idea is to take quartz watch as reference and compare it to sound card, because sound card is not so accurate (also described in that post). I'm just little confused about mentioned "correction procedure" of quartz watch, because it goes usually fast +10 s/day. So what is the real accurate reference? What is the result of calibration procedure ? Is it diff between quartz clock and sound card clock?
> If so, we can use digital metronome too, they are declared as accurate, they usually have audio output, adjustable beat rate etc...


Sorry, this post came while I was writing my other post...

So quartz watches are very accurate and _by design_ often they achieve this accuracy in a slightly counter-intuitive manner. The quartz crystal in them is made to go fast, each individual crystal is characterized at the factory, and the specific watch is programmed to apply a periodic correction which is precisely equal and opposite to excess speed of the quartz. The result is very accurate, but, because of the periodic correction, the trace does has this zig-zag shape that you see in the figure of my calibration post. This is also the reason why the calibration procedure needs to be a little long: to average the zig-zags.

I have no experience with metronomes. Watches are designed for long-term stability: to keep time accurately for long. Metronomes, being designed for the music, I would guess are not necessarily engineered for accurate time-keeping at the part-per-million level. Clearly, the ultimate time reference would be the 1PPS from a GPS receiver, and, as you say, that's definitely overkill.


----------



## djolemag

Thanx for quick answer, let me elaborate my idea in short as possible.



> *Djolemag* makes many good suggestions, for which I am very grateful. Let me express my opinion on them one by one...
> 
> This one is not complicated to implement. I'm trying to evaluate whether it would be an really needed. The most straightforward way to keep track of various position is to time them separately (hitting clear between one and the next), make one snapshot per position, and then save all the snapshots together in the same file using the "save all snapshots" option. Notice that you can name snapshots, so you can call them with the name of the respective positions.


Haven't thought of it in such way, good point.
However, I mentioned in some previous post, if we go in "blackbox" design way, it is good to think about start/stop/pause feature. Personally, if I have to implement it on some RPI (which was my first thought  ), I would also hook few GPIO pins with these button actions in mainthread. In that way I would need almost no action from keyboard/mouse. Also, if I put it to run on Linux distro on some tablet-like device, I have full benefit of touchscreen, so I can start/stop/pause routine without much GUI complications....



> It mostly boils down to what you find less annoying. Without decimals, it's quicker to adjust with the up and down arrows (ten times less clicks for equal adjustments). With decimals, you have the peace of mind that if your movement is 51.4 you can set precisely 51.4. Technically, those 0.4 degs do not make any difference at all. Possibly the best solution is to allow decimals and program the arrows to jump by integer steps (those who want decimals still can enter them via keyboard). I will put this on the todo list.


This is good idea, very efficient. Default step by arrows is One, decimals must be entered separately. in "blackbox" design, I would add decimal spinner, for example... But honestly, it complicates GUI...



> The name of the snapshots is editable, and allows you to do precisely that. You suggest a larger text area?


My suggestion was like this:
Add one (or two) text fields for user input. If user want, can edit them. By default, they are blank (or timestamp...). So, me as user, I can add title "Omega Seamaster ....." in first field, "DU" as DialUp testing position. 
Now, when you take snapshot, you have all relevant data to pull from screen and perform auto-naming of snapshot.... 
In bottom line, very similar, but user has less intervention. In mathematic way, it is sort of optimization / minimization, you type name only once per session, changing only watch position....



> Great idea. This is definitely near the top of the todo list.
> 
> Yes, that's more or less how I envisage the printouts. It's a lot of code to implement, that's why it is not yet there. The move to GTK+3 of the latest version will allow me to merge some code from an old pull-request of a GitHub user named wahlstedt (I think he is also a member here) that implements a prototype for printing...
> 
> For now, tg takes the default audio input and makes the average of the two stereo channels. Selection of audio input is also something that needs to be improved in tg, and there is also material in this direction in wahlstedt's pull request.


Yes, I noticed that, also I've been reading some comments/conversation on Git regarding pull request and changes.
Does it mean I can wire L and R channel in parallel when wiring mic?



> Finally, I completely agree with *alvh* on this.
> 
> Tg is just a comparator that, indirectly, checks a mechanical watch under test against a reference quartz watch, using the clock of a sound card to transfer this information. It's like weighing an apple against a kilogram weight by first using the weight to calibrate a scale and then using the scale to weigh the apple. A quartz watch is usually good enough for the job, unless you seek the very ultimate haute horologerie kind of precision.


Good, now is more clear. Honestly, I was little confused at first reading because I saw zig zag line. Now I see that calibration makes zig zag average, so everything is just fine.



> *One last note.* Snapshots are not just screenshots. The format is actually numeric, this means that if you see a snapshot on a tg window of a different size, or even on a different computer running a different operating system, the snapshot will still look, in a sense, as good as new. More importantly, when we finally have printing, all snapshots even taken today will be pretty-printable by just loading and hitting "print".


Nice. So basically, you record data and interpret them via GUI interface. I've took a brief look of .tgj file, very good point. It represents "frozen" state of GUI in particular moment in time. Congrats! Much better than screenshot as .blob or sort of image.

One kind note: My primary job makes me to read a lot of code each day, various platforms, languages etc. I work as senior technical consultant for some IT/electronic production company. So, 99% of day I read a code or projct demands, but I'm not in "good shape"of writing a code, maybe I'm loosing focus or I'm getting old... 
So, from that point of view, I know how annoying some "software/project changes" could be. From my perspective, I tried to filter all my "first snapshot" ideas and converge to something which could give real effort and improvement.
Once again, I see your idea as brilliant and I'm very proud if I can add at least a tiny idea to improve software....


----------



## djolemag

contrate_wheel said:


> Sorry, this post came while I was writing my other post...
> 
> So quartz watches are very accurate and _by design_ often they achieve this accuracy in a slightly counter-intuitive manner. The quartz crystal in them is made to go fast, each individual crystal is characterized at the factory, and the specific watch is programmed to apply a periodic correction which is precisely equal and opposite to excess speed of the quartz. The result is very accurate, but, because of the periodic correction, the trace does has this zig-zag shape that you see in the figure of my calibration post. This is also the reason why the calibration procedure needs to be a little long: to average the zig-zags.
> 
> I have no experience with metronomes. Watches are designed for long-term stability: to keep time accurately for long. Metronomes, being designed for the music, I would guess are not necessarily engineered for accurate time-keeping at the part-per-million level. Clearly, the ultimate time reference would be the 1PPS from a GPS receiver, and, as you say, that's definitely overkill.


Now is more clear, thank you. I have to think loud, please correct me if I'm wrong:
In normal usage of 24h, mechanical watch will change many positions and variations of them (positions). So, it means that sum of slow and fast rates during the day will give some effort to final 24h result, in practice.
Quartz watch does not have that problem. Maybe some temperature, humidity and battery level will have gain/impact on final 24 h result. That result would be better than on average mechanical watch. That makes a Quarty watch good enough for time reference.

Using GPS is good idea, but it needs a lot of tweaks and job. Final effort is not so big, so yes, it is overkill... However, that brings me to some new idea.. I have some broken ARM tablets at home, working but wiht bad displays (kids ...) . So, if I think about it, it has: 
Audio input
GPS (not sure, I think one have it)
Enough CPU power

So, getting some Linux distro on it would be perfect playground. If it has GPS, then it is feasible to to use pulses from it for time reference...
I will post results if successful. 
Thanx, cheers!


----------



## 1afc

djolemag said:


> Now is more clear, thank you. I have to think loud, please correct me if I'm wrong:
> In normal usage of 24h, mechanical watch will change many positions and variations of them (positions). So, it means that sum of slow and fast rates during the day will give some effort to final 24h result, in practice.
> Quartz watch does not have that problem. Maybe some temperature, humidity and battery level will have gain/impact on final 24 h result. That result would be better than on average mechanical watch. That makes a Quarty watch good enough for time reference.
> 
> Using GPS is good idea, but it needs a lot of tweaks and job. Final effort is not so big, so yes, it is overkill... However, that brings me to some new idea.. I have some broken ARM tablets at home, working but wiht bad displays (kids ...) . So, if I think about it, it has:
> Audio input
> GPS (not sure, I think one have it)
> Enough CPU power
> 
> So, getting some Linux distro on it would be perfect playground. If it has GPS, then it is feasible to to use pulses from it for time reference...
> I will post results if successful.
> Thanx, cheers!


Hi djolemag

I've been following this thread for a while but I still may have missed something so please excuse.

However, my question is What are you trying to solve with a super accurate time source?
It would appear to me that the calibration system works well and is not broken.

My electronics skills are far less than yours and by all means go for it with this project but, if you have the capability, it would seem that a neat cheap preamp would be far more useful to the majority of users.


----------



## djolemag

Hi,
idea is to have sort of standardized approach to sound pickup, that is why I ask about piezo mic and preamp. I tested TG with headphones and it works nice, however it must be quiet room in order to work efficiently. Therefore, my choice is piezo guitar pickup, will test it when I get back from vacation.
About accurate time source: as I explained in previous post, I was confused about accuracy of quartz watch, now is everything clear.
But, I like to have things straight... If I can use GPS module for free (like in tablet), why not to try?
Main reason, to be honest : I have only one quartz watch and lot of mechanical watches


----------



## alvh

djolemag said:


> If I can use GPS module for free (like in tablet), why not to try?


I was wondering how you are imagining this? Hooking up a GPS timesignal straight to the input of the PC's sound card somehow? Because, if you would route it via the tablet's audio output or something, you would introduce yet another unknown error source (the tablet's DAC)...


----------



## djolemag

alvh said:


> I was wondering how you are imagining this? Hooking up a GPS timesignal straight to the input of the PC's sound card somehow? Because, if you would route it via the tablet's audio output or something, you would introduce yet another unknown error source (the tablet's DAC)...


Well, idea is to do it from source code, not by physically routing PPS to sound card...
As contrate_wheel explained in calibration procedure post 


> As any computer program that emulates a timing machine, tg necessarily
> takes its time reference from the clock of the audio card of the computer.
> There is anecdotal evidence that audio cards have usually relatively
> stable clocks. However, unfortunately, these clocks are often affected by
> a constant deviation from true time, sometimes of many seconds per day. To
> correct for it, one must measure the deviation by comparison to a more
> accurate time source, and then inform the program of its value. With tg,
> this can be done either manually or through an automatic calibration
> procedure.
> ......
> The automatic calibration feature works by comparing any analog quartz
> watch (producing one beat per second) to the sound card. Operationally,
> you put a quartz watch on the microphone and then you click on the
> calibrate button.
> ...


So, we have a sound card internal clock which has unknown accuracy. On the other hand, we have a quartz watch, beating 1 beat per second and we suppose it is accurate enough (and as we agree in previous posts, it usually is accurate enough for our needs).
So, we still can get sound card clock and compare it to PPS of 1 pulse per second reference we got from GPS. That is usually achievable by standard gpsd daemon in Linux, haven't been looking to much, but is feasible for sure, with one constraint: if GPS module has PPS feature or not, which may vary from model to model. 
However, as i mentioned in previous post, it is worth to give a try... nevermind if result is success or failure, some other user will have useful info, to go or not to go that way in further research....

Please correct me if I'm wrong, thank you for getting interest in this discussion.


----------



## 1afc

djolemag said:


> Hi,
> idea is to have sort of standardized approach to sound pickup, that is why I ask about piezo mic and preamp. I tested TG with headphones and it works nice, however it must be quiet room in order to work efficiently. Therefore, my choice is piezo guitar pickup, will test it when I get back from vacation.
> About accurate time source: as I explained in previous post, I was confused about accuracy of quartz watch, now is everything clear.
> But, I like to have things straight... If I can use GPS module for free (like in tablet), why not to try?
> Main reason, to be honest : I have only one quartz watch and lot of mechanical watches


Sounds like quite a challenge so will be interesting to see your solution.

Regarding piezo pickups etc, this thread has a bit of discussion that you might find of use.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/what-microphone-use-tg-open-source-timing-software-3606906.html

I think the summary was if one is using a piezo then a pre amp looks necessary.

Always interested to find better ways to use this great software.


----------



## djolemag

1afc said:


> Sounds like quite a challenge so will be interesting to see your solution.
> 
> Regarding piezo pickups etc, this thread has a bit of discussion that you might find of use.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/what-microphone-use-tg-open-source-timing-software-3606906.html
> 
> I think the summary was if one is using a piezo then a pre amp looks necessary.
> 
> Always interested to find better ways to use this great software.


Thank you, totally agree with this statement


> Always interested to find better ways to use this great software


Will look in more details when get back home.. Now I have to prepare for long journey called "driving from vacation"...
In general, piezo is good for eliminating environmental noise. It is also too weak (I suppose) to produce acceptable signal, so pre-amp is almost mandatory.
However, it would be good to know what frequency range is needed for TG, so pre-amp can make cut-off of unwanted noise or other type of disturbances.

@contrate_wheel : could you please advise regarding optimal frequency range for TG?


----------



## azkid

djolemag said:


> Hi,
> idea is to have sort of standardized approach to sound pickup, that is why I ask about piezo mic and preamp.


I've been experimenting with piezo pickup and op amp preamp circuit based on watch o scope schematic with good success. I have a lot of (not healthy) mechanical watches also. 

Let me know if you want to converse further about the preamp and piezo or if I can help.

I was planning on designing a board with SMT parts designed for a common enclosure. Need to build the case holder / pickup next though.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


----------



## djolemag

azkid said:


> I've been experimenting with piezo pickup and op amp preamp circuit based on watch o scope schematic with good success. I have a lot of (not healthy) mechanical watches also.
> 
> Let me know if you want to converse further about the preamp and piezo or if I can help.
> 
> I was planning on designing a board with SMT parts designed for a common enclosure. Need to build the case holder / pickup next though.
> 
> Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


Hi, yes, I would like to converse further about preamp and piezo.
I think contrate_wheel would have something interesting to tell us about frequency range needed for TG.
We all know that piezo has high impedance, so preamp should be adjusted according to that.
In next days I will try to get some guitar pickup with EQ and give it a try with TG.
Currently, I've just came from vacation, so lot of things are in queue for solving... Hope I will have enough time during the week.
Will inform you on progress.
Cheers!


----------



## linux.author

contrate_wheel said:


> Just a little message to announce the new version of tg, namely Tg 0.5.0.
> 
> New features include:
> - Ability to take and save snapshots
> - The distinction between light and regular version has been eliminated (it is now a setting)
> - Minor improvements to the user interface
> 
> Snapshots are just what you think they are. The new version of tg can load and save files, which are basically archives of snapshots.
> 
> Windows, debian, and source code distributions are as usual available at:
> https://tg.ciovil.li
> https://github.com/vacaboja/tg
> 
> I have been in contact with dmnc, who has already tested the new version on Mac OS X. He will surely produce a homebrew install script for it shortly. (Thanks a lot dmnc for your continued support of Tg on OS X.)
> 
> On the technical side (for those interested):
> - Version 3 of GTK+ has replaced version 2 as the widget library for Tg
> - Thanks to an excellent contribution of Stefan Talpalaru, the build system is now based on GNU autotools.
> 
> Comments, suggestions, bug reports are as always very welcome!
> 
> PS: alvh, Klaus, landk, 1afc: completely agree, thanks for answering djolemag's question!


alas, this new release breaks support under Raspbian PIXEL under the Raspberry Pi armhf... the sticking point in the ./configure is libportaudio2...

configure: error: Package requirements (portaudio-2.0) were not met:

No package 'portaudio-2.0' found

even though installed:

$ dpkg --list | grep portaudio2
ii libportaudio2:armhf 19+svn20140130-1 armhf Portable audio I/O - shared library

it appears that the develop libs, libportaudio-dev, are incompatible and there is no supported portaudio package for the build:

$ dpkg --list | grep portaudio-dev
ii libportaudio-dev 18.1-7.1 armhf Portable audio I/O - development files

(there is no portaudio2-dev package available in the armhf Raspbia repositories)

so... i'll stick with the old version for now and hope for a resolution?

still love Tg! works great! (am now doing a build for my OS X Sierra Macbook Air)

update #1: so i downloaded the latest portaudio release, built and installed, then received:

configure: error: Package requirements (fftw3f) were not met:

No package 'fftw3f' found

(and there is no corresponding pkg 'fftw3f' in the Raspbian repository)

update #2: the brew install under Mac OS X 10.12.5 works! kudos to the wonderful coder across the Pond!

update #3: well, the attempt at a build of the new Tg 0.5.0 for Raspbian PIXEL has failed... after downloading, building and installing fftw3, the ./configure script still reports (even after doing a 'sudo ldconfig'):

configure: error: Package requirements (fftw3f) were not met:

No package 'fftw3f' found

so i'm stuck at this point with 0.4.0 under the armhf Debian release... (well, not really 'stuck,' as i'll keep hacking at this...)

update #4: installing the libfftw3-dev package finally gets through the configure process:

# sudo apt install libfftw3-dev

then the ./configure process results in:

Tg 0.5.0
=====

prefix: /usr/local

compiler: gcc
cflags: -g -O2 -Wall -Wextra
ldflags: -Wl,--as-needed

a quick 'make,' insertion of a cheap CMEDIA US$5 USB sound dongle, and:

so it looks like you must build and install portaudio2 to run Tg 0.5.0 under the latest armhf Debian - thanks to all!

update #5 - the new tg-timer builds fine (after gtk3, glib2, fftw3 package installs) under pre-PIXEL Raspbian - at least on my little RPi3 w/a TFT LCD that also uses Pulseaudio... it was necessary to have an available sound input device available and to start the Pulseaudio server before launch:

$ start-pulseaudio-x11 ; tg-timer &

willie
on the stinking hot Gulf of Mexico


----------



## Chimed

Hi - thanks contrate_wheel for the great software ! And everyone else who has contributed through feedback....!

I withdrew some watches I had listed on ebay because they were quite a long way off spec (according to the software) . Using the software, I believe I achieved a lot better timing results, so I can relist them now  Had to adjust the beat lever.

"I am a true believer......!"

Thanks again Stephen


----------



## monax

Is it possible (or practicable) to add support for beat rates higher than 72000? I have a couple 360000 and a 108000bph stopwatches that I'd like to graph. I have them adjusted pretty well as it is, but it would still be nice to be able to run them by the timegrapher. No worries, though, if it's a pain in the rear to add such support.


----------



## scrooge

Stumbled across this thread and I am very happy to have found it. Can't wait to try the software with my humble Sennheiser PC 360 mic when I get off work.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Hi all,

sorry for not being very active.

I'm happy that linux.author managed to build Tg 0.5.0 successfully. The fftw3f is, in fact, a bit confusing...



monax said:


> Is it possible (or practicable) to add support for beat rates higher than 72000? I have a couple 360000 and a 108000bph stopwatches that I'd like to graph. I have them adjusted pretty well as it is, but it would still be nice to be able to run them by the timegrapher. No worries, though, if it's a pain in the rear to add such support.


We may try. Can you send me some recordings of your stopwatches? (I will be on vacations until September, but then I will have time to look into it...)


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Hello everyone. I'm already enjoying version 5 of Tg. Excellent improvements. Congratulations contrate_wheel, Thanks for new features of the program.
I have a question: Can I save the screenshots in image format?

Guido


----------



## Guido Velasquez

About calibration: Would it be possible to use the internet SNTP Client?

Guido


----------



## contrate_wheel

Guido Velasquez said:


> About calibration: Would it be possible to use the internet SNTP Client?


Hi!

Unfortunately not. There are several sources of timing inside a personal computer, for instance the real time clock, the clock of the audio card, the internet (via time servers). Trouble is that computers are not very good at synchronizing between them, even more if you want to do it in a cross-platform way.


----------



## monax

contrate_wheel said:


> We may try. Can you send me some recordings of your stopwatches? (I will be on vacations until September, but then I will have time to look into it...)


OK! I can do that. I will also be away a lot this month (and early next month), so may have to wait until September, anyhow. I have two different 360000bph stopwatches, so I guess I'll record both. One of them is one revolution per second for the main sweep hand, while the other is once per 3 seconds.


----------



## EdwardChen

contrate_wheel,

I just wanted to thank you (and all the other contributors) for your work, I've messed with regulating my 7S26 movements in the past by measuring the time difference after a day or two, but this piece of software works great. I am using a cheap microsoft USB webcam with built in microphone (had it laying around), and it works great. I haven't tried calibrating yet as I don't have any working Quartz analog watches (all the batteries have died and I haven't bothered replacing them!).

Thanks again,
Ed


----------



## booBot

A quick question from a newcomer yet to evaluate the tg program.
How long does it take to calibrate tg?
What does the calibration length depend on?

I plan to calibrate tg by the RWM station (at 4996 kHz which I receive clear and loud) 1 Hz pulses - fed directly from my SW receiver to my laptop by an audio cable (no speakers and microphones involved).
The only thing: RWM sends 1 Hz pulses for 9 minutes and 55 seconds, and I read (here, in the Forum) that tg may take as long as ~15 minutes to calibrate, so the signal may end up earlier (than those 15 minutes).

Please comment.
Thank you in advance.

Warm regards,
Tony


----------



## linux.author

mr. tony:

i used guidance from this post (as recommended by Tg's author):

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/open-source-timing-software-2542874-17.html#post29970370

i calibrate tg (for different USB dongle audio inputs) using an older quartz watch, and the process takes only a few minutes (on a Macbook Air or a Raspberry Pi 3B)

regards,

willie
on the cooling Gulf of Mexico


----------



## booBot

*linux.author*, thanks for the help.
It turned out that the RWM's signal contains some extra pulses, which are easily recognised to be ignore by a human but affect the calibration process.
I'll experiment with a 1PPS output of a GPS receiver.

As a side question:

if I see the positive _s/d_ value (+) this meant the watch gains time (i.e. is fast), it the _s/d_ value is negative (-) this means the watch is slow. Right?


----------



## booBot

*linux.author*, thanks for the help.
It turned out that the RWM's signal contains some extra pulses, which are easily recognised to be ignore by a human but affect the calibration process.
I'll experiment with a 1PPS output of a GPS receiver.

As a side question:

if I see the positive _s/d_ value (+) this meant the watch gains time (i.e. is fast), it the _s/d_ value is negative (-) this means the watch is slow. Right?


----------



## booBot

*linux.author*, thanks for the help.
It turned out that the RWM's signal contains some extra pulses, which are easily recognised to be ignored by a human but affect the calibration process.
I'll experiment with a 1PPS output of a GPS receiver.

As a side question:

if I see the positive _s/d_ value (+) this means the watch gains time (i.e. is fast), it the _s/d_ value is negative (-) this means the watch is slow. Right?


----------



## blackarrow

I tried the software and I like it, since I do not have a timegrapher - still a beginner in this field. I managed to calibrate the software, and to test accuracy of the watch I wear right now. However, I do have problems with the microphone. I think it is very weak, since it is sometimes very hard to pick up the watch beat. 

What kind of microphone do you recommend? Should I always open the watch and put the microphone as close as possible to the movement? Should I put some kind of bowl above the microphone and watch, to keep it isolated from the surrounding noise?


----------



## jisham

booBot said:


> I'll experiment with a 1PPS output of a GPS receiver.


 In my experiments, the PPS signal was too hot for the mic (and possibly line) input. I rigged up a resistive voltage divider to knock the level down. I tried a few values before I found a combo that works, and I forget what values I used in the end, but 80K/4k ohm is a good place to start. I'm not even gonna try ascii art, but connect the 80k & 4k in series, then connect the PPS signal across both resistors, and the input to you soundcard across the 4k resistor. If you're not comfortable soldering, this would be easy to do on one of those friction-fit breadboards (like https://www.adafruit.com/product/65 , but they come in many other sizes), with some wire jumpers.

Or, if you can find some way to get an audible click out of the GPS for the PPS signal, just hold the mic up to it


----------



## contrate_wheel

Sorry for my slow responses...

*@jisham* Fabulous, thanks a lot for sharing this!

*@booBot* To shorten the calibration period, which makes sense if you have a very clean signal to calibrate with, assuming that you can compile tg form the source code, it suffices to change this line in the file src/tg.h


Code:


#define CAL_DATA_SIZE 900

The number 900 represents roughly the number of seconds of signal needed for the calibration, so with 900 it will take about 15 minutes. If you need it and you are unable to do the compilation, just drop me a PM and I will see what I can do for you...

edit: *@blackarrow* Ambient noise should not be a major issue, as long as you are in a relatively quiet environment. If you can, I would suggest to keep the watch in contact with the microphone, and otherwise as close as possible. Always keep in mind that mechanical watches are sensitive to magnetism, this is not a problem with piezo or capsule (electret) microphones, but magnets are used to keep the lid of certain laptops closed, so, if you are using a laptop, check first (just see if it attracts a paper clip or a needle).


----------



## blackarrow

contrate_wheel said:


> *@blackarrow* Ambient noise should not be a major issue, as long as you are in a relatively quiet environment. If you can, I would suggest to keep the watch in contact with the microphone, and otherwise as close as possible. Always keep in mind that mechanical watches are sensitive to magnetism, this is not a problem with piezo or capsule (electret) microphones, but magnets are used to keep the lid of certain laptops closed, so, if you are using a laptop, check first (just see if it attracts a paper clip or a needle).


Well, I do have some older pair of earphones which has integrated microphone in it. This way I could place the microphone with the watch at least 30 cm away from my laptop (if there are some magnets there). I am waiting for my demagnetizer to arrive, so I will demagnetize all of the watches and try again.


----------



## booBot

*contrate_wheel*, thank you for the excellent program! And for the help offer - I'll try to stay away from any acoustic channels during the calibration process, the all-electric 1PPS connection is (relatively) easy for me. It was just a haste/laziness when I tried the RWM timing reference signal. That was plain wrong way.
With the 1PPS I will not be time-restricted, so let the *tg* take as long to calibrate as it needs to do it properly.
Thanks again!


----------



## booBot

*contrate_wheel*, thank you for the excellent program! And for the help offer - I'll try to stay away from any acoustic channels during the calibration process, the all-electric 1PPS connection is (relatively) easy for me. It was just a haste/laziness when I tried the RWM timing reference signal. That was plain wrong way.
With the 1PPS I will not be time-restricted, so let the *tg* take as long to calibrate as it needs to do it properly.
Thanks again!


----------



## LightDot

blackarrow said:


> Well, I do have some older pair of earphones which has integrated microphone in it. This way I could place the microphone with the watch at least 30 cm away from my laptop (if there are some magnets there). I am waiting for my demagnetizer to arrive, so I will demagnetize all of the watches and try again.


If you have a smartphone with a magnetometer (pretty common this days) or a small compass, you can easily check if any of the watches got magnetized. For those that happen to be running Android, I recommend the Gauss Meter app. Either of these are also a good way to check if there are any potentially disturbing magnetic fields in your environment beforehand.


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

contrate_wheel*

Thank you so much for two years of timegrapher

HAPPY 2nd ANNIVERSARY*


----------



## Raydius

So I managed to lose my Korg piezo mic in a move, but wanted to report that it started to work decently well when I shaved away some of the rubber/plastic insulation material. Nevertheless, I've gone ahead and ordered the Cherub mic from Amazon and will report back this weekend after it arrives.


----------



## azkid

djolemag said:


> Hi, yes, I would like to converse further about preamp and piezo.
> I think contrate_wheel would have something interesting to tell us about frequency range needed for TG.
> We all know that piezo has high impedance, so preamp should be adjusted according to that.


Indeed. Apologies for being out of pocket for so long. I'm going to try the preamp/filter circuit with a number of types of watches and report back.

The circuit implements a band pass with gain. It looks like I'll want to experiment with the cutoff frequencies a little, maybe.

But so far it's worked pretty well with two (very loud) pocket watches, thanks to your fantastic algorithm. The amount of noise reduction is impressive (since my circuit isn't reducing noise quite enough for watch-o-scope to handle well)

End goal is a circuit board (either DIY or SMT, depending on if there's interest for one or the other), that fits inside a common enclosure.



djolemag said:


> In next days I will try to get some guitar pickup with EQ and give it a try with TG.


Sorry if I missed the updated, but did you have a chance to try this?


----------



## 24h

I'm new to this and I'm looking for a timegrapher relatively cheap, even compared to some of them from China for $120-150.
What microphone and amplifier would you recommend?

Thanks a lot!


----------



## avihai

Hi everyone, 
And thank you @Contrate_wheel for this software. I've been using it from day 1, and it has been evolving very well since then !

A QUESTION: My old laptop broke and I had to replace it. Now I don't have two separate jack inputs for mic and earphones but only one, which
doesn't fit my mono mic  I bought a couple of cheap USB audiocards on eBay but I cannot get the mic to work with them. Any experience with 
this issue ?!?! THANKS !


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

24h said:


> ... What microphone and amplifier would you recommend? ...


Hi 24h,

I still use and recommend the Conrad kit no. 197688 (for everybody skilled with a soldering rod) and a cheap guitar pick up clip.

br Klaus


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

avihai said:


> Hi everyone,
> And thank you @Contrate_wheel for this software. I've been using it from day 1, and it has been evolving very well since then !
> 
> A QUESTION: My old laptop broke and I had to replace it. Now I don't have two separate jack inputs for mic and earphones but only one, which
> doesn't fit my mono mic  I bought a couple of cheap USB audiocards on eBay but I cannot get the mic to work with them. Any experience with
> this issue ?!?! THANKS !


Hi avihai,

I got no experience but I haven't any clue. Maybe it will help anyway.
if your laptop is some kind of fruit with specific OS then there are special adaptors available. In case of an OS with a sheet glass opening in the wall you have to explain to the system what's plugged.

br Klaus


----------



## 24h

Klaus Tickalot said:


> Hi 24h,
> 
> I still use and recommend the Conrad kit no. 197688 (for everybody skilled with a soldering rod) and a cheap guitar pick up clip.
> 
> br Klaus


Thanks for the info.
The Korg CM200 clip-on microphone looks like a good option for a mic, but unfortunately I cannot purchase the Conrad 197668 here in the US because they won't ship it here.


----------



## linux.author

24h said:


> Thanks for the info.
> The Korg CM200 clip-on microphone looks like a good option for a mic, but unfortunately I cannot purchase the Conrad 197668 here in the US because they won't ship it here.


i simply clipped off the support bracket from a Logitech C270 webcam, then use a rubber band to clamp the watch onto the mic input area - works great on all my laptops, including a Macbook Air (only the USB port is used)

hth,

willie
on the sunny and warm Gulf of Mexico


----------



## 1afc

Hi All 
Saw this on Affordable Watches and thought it may work as a reliable input device for Timegrapher.

I won't receive it for a while so can't comment on the suitability





Frederique Constant FC-ANALYTICS Clip
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273007677197?ul_noapp=true


----------



## contrate_wheel

1afc said:


> Hi All
> Saw this on Affordable Watches and thought it may work as a reliable input device for Timegrapher.
> 
> I won't receive it for a while so can't comment on the suitability
> 
> 
> 
> *Frederique Constant FC-ANALYTICS Clip*
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/273007677197?ul_noapp=true


Hi,

that object has been mentioned a few times in other sections of the forums. I made a post in this thread https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/frederique-constant-watch-accuracy-device-3798778.html and there are these other threads
https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/frederiqueconstant-analytics-4560289.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/nifty-rate-checker-3791162.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/some-isochronism-testing-4063514.html
Unfortunately nobody really reviewed neither the device nor the associated app.

*Note of excuses:* I promised to write a post about the internals of TG already more than once, but still I didn't. As it has been observed (Definition of beat error) I am rather slow, and I have too many hobbies. But I didn't forget my promise (yet)...


----------



## chp

First, contrite_wheel thank you for developing this software. I basically scrapped my other timegrapher apps in favors of yours. I read the links you posted, and it looks like you ran into people with HUGE egos. So, thank you for your perseverance developing this software.

Instead of using a clip, I decided to go another route. Here is my setup - a notebook running your software, a box of electronics to provide adjustable gain and filtering, and a watch holder modified with a piezo speaker as a sensor.









Here is a picture of my amplifier box (with on/off switch and gain knob) and my modified watch holder.









Here is a zoom of my modified watch holder. The piezo speaker fits in between the holder's rails. I superglued a small plastic cylinder from a mechanical pencil to the speaker to act as a pickup. The plastic cylinder contacts the watch to pick up the movement's vibrations and won't scratch the watch.









Here is a picture with the piezo speaker moved to the side. I used an arch shaped piece of foam with a flat top inside to the holder to push the piezo speaker's pickup against the watch. The holder's spring and bolt fit inside the arch, and the top of the arch is flat to mate against the flat back of the piezo speaker.









This holder will allow you to balance the watch in 5 of the 6 measurement positions. When I need to take a measurement with the side of the holder with the bolt and wingnut, I'll set it against something or just hold the holder in that position. I'm working on a device that will let you rotate the holder in all 6 positions.

When I regulate my watches, I place the watch face down in the holder and open the back. I make the adjustments and see my changes on the timegrapher. For example, if your watch is running 20 s/d fast when you wear it and face down measures +15 s/d, you can adjust the face down s/d to be -5 s/d and this will get you close. For this example, I'd actually adjust face down to -4 s/d because I regulate my watches to run 0 to +1 s/d.

I made this setup well over a year ago, and I have to dig up my schematic for my amplifier. I think I had three or four filter/gain stages. The gain of the first stage is set internally by a potentiometer. The final gain is set by the knob on the outside. I used ultra low noise op amps. I didn't need 3 or 4 stages for the gain, but needed them to provide filtering from outside electrical and mechanical noise. I think I used a multi-pole band pass filter from ~500 Hz to 20kHz. This filtered out the 60 Hz and 120 Hz electrical noise and a lot of the room noise (talking, TV, etc.).

I used a quartz watch to perform the calibration as instructed. Then, (here comes the anal part), I checked the calibration of the quart watch over a long period of time and made a tweak to the initial calibration. This is a small ~0.2 s/d tweak to the initial calibration.

If there is a next version, is it possible to:

1) Select the integration time from several choices like the choices from a standalone timegrapher.

2) With a longer integration time, can you display the s/d with one number after the decimal point (e.g, +1.2 s/d).


----------



## 1afc

Hi contrate_wheel

I have now received the Frederick Constant Analitics Clip and here is a very short review. (If anyone wants more information please PM me and I'll try and respond with a post here.)

Firstly the app
The app is called SwissConnect Analytics and it's available from the Play Store.
Before one can use the app one needs to create an account and authenticate the FC clip number.
All the data is stored on the Cloud and the phone must be connected to the Cloud to store your additions.
It is a very basic app that is slow to operate but, with the clip it does work.
It has stuff that I'm not interested in like 
Purchase Price
Proof of Purchase
Last Service etc
However, others might think that is good.
The app design IMHO is cluncky.
In particular the menu is minimalistic. There is also a (reasonable) requirement to SAVE the readings BUT the Save button is out of the window and I have a 6" screen. 
It took me a few goes to figure where my readings went.

The app has a list of manufacturers and models but I would have thought that as they are measuring movements they would have an inbuilt list of calibres with the associated vph and lift angles etc. That is not the case but these can be modified by the user.

How does it work?
On my phone it seems to work fine.
There is a 30 second default measurement time and the app does its thing and it shows a trace of the variation in timekeeping in spd.
Once complete it allows the user to add a description and this is where one needs to add the position of the measurement.
I was expecting that there would be defaults for things like Face Up, Face Down, 3 up, 3 down etc but no! What novice designed the app!!

As mentioned above, the phone needs to be connected to the web to save readings and any new watches added.
Is it a replacement for tg software?
Not in my opinion.
However, If you need to check some watches that maybe you are thinking of purchasing then this will likely be a simple and compact option.
With a bit of clip repositioning it worked on three mechanicals that I tried. (It does not work on quartz)

Other things to note.
I tried using the FC clip on my computer but with no success. 
It may be that my Flintstone computer doesn't talk to the clip but the computer and tg work fine with a straight USB web cam mic.

HTH



contrate_wheel said:


> Hi,
> 
> that object has been mentioned a few times in other sections of the forums. I made a post in this thread https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/frederique-constant-watch-accuracy-device-3798778.html and there are these other threads
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/frederiqueconstant-analytics-4560289.html
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/nifty-rate-checker-3791162.html
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/some-isochronism-testing-4063514.html
> Unfortunately nobody really reviewed neither the device nor the associated app.
> 
> *Note of excuses:* I promised to write a post about the internals of TG already more than once, but still I didn't. As it has been observed (Definition of beat error) I am rather slow, and I have too many hobbies. But I didn't forget my promise (yet)...


----------



## chp

1afc said:


> Hi contrate_wheel
> 
> I have now received the Frederick Constant Analitics Clip and here is a very short review. (If anyone wants more information please PM me and I'll try and respond with a post here.)
> 
> Firstly the app
> The app is called SwissConnect Analytics and it's available from the Play Store.
> Before one can use the app one needs to create an account and authenticate the FC clip number.
> All the data is stored on the Cloud and the phone must be connected to the Cloud to store your additions.
> It is a very basic app that is slow to operate but, with the clip it does work.
> It has stuff that I'm not interested in like
> Purchase Price
> Proof of Purchase
> Last Service etc
> However, others might think that is good.
> The app design IMHO is cluncky.
> In particular the menu is minimalistic. There is also a (reasonable) requirement to SAVE the readings BUT the Save button is out of the window and I have a 6" screen.
> It took me a few goes to figure where my readings went.
> 
> The app has a list of manufacturers and models but I would have thought that as they are measuring movements they would have an inbuilt list of calibres with the associated vph and lift angles etc. That is not the case but these can be modified by the user.
> 
> How does it work?
> On my phone it seems to work fine.
> There is a 30 second default measurement time and the app does its thing and it shows a trace of the variation in timekeeping in spd.
> Once complete it allows the user to add a description and this is where one needs to add the position of the measurement.
> I was expecting that there would be defaults for things like Face Up, Face Down, 3 up, 3 down etc but no! What novice designed the app!!
> 
> As mentioned above, the phone needs to be connected to the web to save readings and any new watches added.
> Is it a replacement for tg software?
> Not in my opinion.
> However, If you need to check some watches that maybe you are thinking of purchasing then this will likely be a simple and compact option.
> With a bit of clip repositioning it worked on three mechanicals that I tried. (It does not work on quartz)
> 
> Other things to note.
> I tried using the FC clip on my computer but with no success.
> It may be that my Flintstone computer doesn't talk to the clip but the computer and tg work fine with a straight USB web cam mic.
> 
> HTH


I've used two android apps in the past: WildSpectra and TickOPrint.

WildSpectra only provides the s/d (no beat error or amplitude). It provides three averages: 5, 30, and 60 seconds for the s/d reading. It provides a numeric valves for each and a graphic display using pointers on a semicircle display. You can adjust the input gain and the bandpass filter endpoints. This was my main app. When the three pointers converge on a s/d you have a pretty good indicator. The only issue I saw was that when I was measuring small s/d every so often the 5 second pointer would move from +5 s/d to -10 s/d, for example, then the 30 second pointer would follow later and the 60 second pointer would bump somewhat later. It was like something ran in the background (like GooglePlayService) and took some resources or the phone's clock was not very stable and created an instant measurement error. I saw the same effect on two phones. On the rooted phone, I changed the clock freq to be fixed at different frequencies and it didn't help. MY guess for larger s/d you might not notice this. Once you recognize the blip, you can just stop and restart the measurement.

TickOPrint provides the dot display, numeric s/d, beat error, and amplitude in the full version. You can change the averaging time. The gain is not adjustable in the latest version. My issue was that I would run the app, and a s/d would converge after a minute or so. Then I would stop and start again (not close and open the app), and I would get different results. Also, the beat error was not consistent. For example, the watch from my previous post above has a consistent 0.1ms beat error on TG Timegrapher, but on TickOPrint it would vary from 0.1 to 2.5 ms. I was feeding an extremely clean signal and I was adjusting the gain of my amplifier, and I could not find a sweet spot to get good consistent results.

Tg Timegrapher gave me consistent results. I also ran the calibration several times on different days with my netbook cold and running for a while and got consistent calibration values. This is why I stopped using my other apps.


----------



## chp

I was asked why I shoot for a 0 to +1 s/d regulation. I typically measure the s/d in three or four positions. If you wear you watch on your left wrist, I measure stem down, face up, and 12 down. Sometimes, I use a new fourth position where 12 is down by 45 degrees. If you are a desk jockey, this is a common position for your watch during the day. These 3 or 4 positions are pretty consistent with the behavior when you wear the watch. I shoot for slightly positive s/d day to compensate for movement of the watch causing it to slow down slightly. Also, having a slightly positive s/d allows easier setting of the time after a while. You simply pull the stem out to hack the seconds and then press it back in to re-start. If you run a negative s/d, you have to move the minute hand which is more of a pain.


----------



## MaxBottomTime

Pardon my ignorance - where is the binary for Mac OS? I see that I have to install through the terminal, but don't see the archive to download.


----------



## 24h

MaxBottomTime said:


> Pardon my ignorance - where is the binary for Mac OS? I see that I have to install through the terminal, but don't see the archive to download.


From what I remember, you don't have to manually download the binaries yourself. It's all though Brew, and I think it will just download the source files from the repository name.

*Macintosh*

A formula for the Homebrew package manager has been prepared by GitHub user dmnc. To use it, you need to install Homebrew first (instructions on http://brew.sh).

Then run the following command to check everything is set up correctly and follow any instructions it gives you:


Code:


brew doctor

To install tg, run:


Code:


brew install dmnc/horology/tg

You can now launch tg by typing:


Code:


tg-timer &


----------



## MaxBottomTime

Thanks - I didn't realize brew was a third party tool. I was extracting the source code and unix binary and not seeing anything named brew (so running a brew command in the extracted directory did nothing). I'm installing now


----------



## linux.author

tks for the OS X install - i just upgraded to High Sierra and basically:

1. uninstalled brew
2. installed brew
3. installed:
'brew install dmnc/horology/tg'

and now i'm back up with tg-timer!

tks!

works great and is a fabulous tool - most appreciated!

willie
on the Gulf of Mexico


----------



## fearlessleader

24h said:


> From what I remember, you don't have to manually download the binaries yourself. It's all though Brew, and I think it will just download the source files from the repository name. ...


Are you aware of any downsides (space, security, whatever) to using Brew (not just for this, but for anything)? I remember some other package system that caused some grief back in the 9 or early 10 days.


----------



## 24h

fearlessleader said:


> Are you aware of any downsides (space, security, whatever) to using Brew (not just for this, but for anything)? I remember some other package system that caused some grief back in the 9 or early 10 days.


Not a security expert, but I wouldn't really worry about it too much. Sure, installing this kind of software on your Macbook may open it up more to attacks but I think the risk is minimal.


----------



## audiomagnate

The Korg mic didn't work for me until I used a pencil to couple the case back to the mic. I use a Behringer Xenxys 502 mic mixer ($40 on Amazon) into my desktop's mic/line input. The Korg is much noisier than the mics I use for music and voice recording, but the high and low EQ filters on the Behringer allow it to work. I have 13 watches and this rig works on all of them, although sometimes the degree field comes and goes. Sometimes it takes a an adjustment of the mic position and or level controls to get a "green signal," but this setup works and it's pretty cheap.​


----------



## 24h

audiomagnate said:


> The Korg mic didn't work for me until I used a pencil to couple the case back to the mic. I use a Behringer Xenxys 502 mic mixer ($40 on Amazon) into my desktop's mic/line input. The Korg is much noisier than the mics I use for music and voice recording, but the high and low EQ filters on the Behringer allow it to work. I have 13 watches and this rig works on all of them, although sometimes the degree field comes and goes. Sometimes it takes a an adjustment of the mic position and or level controls to get a "green signal," but this setup works and it's pretty cheap.​


You seem to know more about audio than me...
I have some cheap clip on microphones (a few from China and one Korg). When I'm listening to the audio that is picked up, there is a very loud humming noise with some static in the background.
Is this because the wires aren't shielded properly? Is there any way I can cut the current cord out of the microphone and replace it with a better shielded one?


----------



## audiomagnate

The Korg and other cheap mics are what's called "unbalanced" (two wire) while professional recording technicians use balanced (three wire) cables and connectors. Balanced setups are much lower in noise. The mics that come with time graphing machines are also balanced, but more expensive and more difficult to connect to your computer. In short, the answer is no you can't rewire a cheap unbalanced mix to balanced, but simple tone controls like on my little Behringer mixer/mic preamp can reduce the noise enough to make the program work. Probably the best solution is to simply spend a little more and buy a balanced mic intended for the purpose for $69. You will still need to buy a preamp to interface this balanced mic with your computer. Now we're up around $100 for the mic and the preamp/mixer, which is close to the cost of a complete machine, but I prefer the software to the box.


----------



## dmnc

fearlessleader said:


> Are you aware of any downsides (space, security, whatever) to using Brew (not just for this, but for anything)? I remember some other package system that caused some grief back in the 9 or early 10 days.


Brew is very mature now. You used to be able to get in a bit of a mess back in the days of fink and, to a lesser extent, macports after that, but those issues are all nicely worked out now and everything is kept separate from the underlying operating system.

Obviously it will take up a little space but will be very minimal compared to most modern desktop applications.

On security, brew shouldn't be anything to worry about but obviously there is always the possibility you use it to install something malicious. There's a centralised team vetting everything that comes in and you only ever install as yourself rather than a superuser so I'd say the risks are very low. Entirely anecdotal, but in my work we've been using it across a team of around 25 for about five years now and never had any concerns.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 24h

audiomagnate said:


> The Korg and other cheap mics are what's called "unbalanced" (two wire) while professional recording technicians use balanced (three wire) cables and connectors. Balanced setups are much lower in noise. The mics that come with time graphing machines are also balanced, but more expensive and more difficult to connect to your computer. In short, the answer is no you can't rewire a cheap unbalanced mix to balanced, but simple tone controls like on my little Behringer mixer/mic preamp can reduce the noise enough to make the program work. Probably the best solution is to simply spend a little more and buy a balanced mic intended for the purpose for $69. You will still need to buy a preamp to interface this balanced mic with your computer. Now we're up around $100 for the mic and the preamp/mixer, which is close to the cost of a complete machine, but I prefer the software to the box.


What I have is actually a modified pre-amp thanks to the help of Guido from Modifying PYLE PP444 Preamp - Reparación de Relojes
I cut two ceramic capacitors out of the curcuit and replaced one electrolytic capacitor with a 105 ceramic. I also removed the rubber dampener from the clip on mic.
All of these changes increased the overall sound quality and seemed to better isolate the actual sound of the watch.

What I currenty have is definitely usable with all of the available timing software, but simply listening to the audio or trying to add it into a video is an annoyance due to the humming noise.
Perhaps my next project will be to build a proper stand for the watch/mic combo so I can properly time various positions of the watch.

If you're interested, here's are some videos demonstrating all the changes I made to the microphone/pre-amp.
The last half of video 5 is what I'm currently using (after the capacitor replacement) and it sounds decent. Still a lot of unfavorable noise though.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOMif0oGPj4AXfAc7JXbbU6aBayAiXYdW


----------



## audiomagnate

That's a phono preamp not a mic preamp. Phono preamps use the RIAA curve to reduce record noise. I know you've modified it, but a proper mic preamp would help a lot, especially in the hum department, as that device is boosting the signal in hum area (60 to 120HZ), and cutting where a watch makes most of its sound, up in the treble region. My setup is a little noisy, but perfectly usable for videos, especially with the EQ (tone controls) applied.

EDIT: OMG I listened to your recordings, that is WAY too much hum!!!! You need to swap that thing out for a proper mic preamp and use it to play records. Get a microphone preamp 
that takes an unbalanced input like the Behringer XENYX 502 I'm using. Here's my rig in action.


----------



## 24h

audiomagnate said:


> That's a phono preamp not a mic preamp. Phono preamps use the RIAA curve to reduce record noise. I know you've modified it, but a proper mic preamp would help a lot, especially in the hum department, as that device is boosting the signal in hum area (60 to 120HZ), and cutting where a watch makes most of its sound, up in the treble region. My setup is a little noisy, but perfectly usable for videos, especially with the EQ (tone controls) applied.
> 
> EDIT: OMG I listened to your recordings, that is WAY too much hum!!!! You need to swap that thing out for a proper mic preamp and use it to play records. Get a microphone preamp
> that takes an unbalanced input like the Behringer XENYX 502 I'm using.


The last 8 seconds of Test 5 is my best sample with the least amount of hum.
Now that I think about it, I believe that he actually used a shielded RCA cable soldered to the pickup mic and it produced almost zero hum.
I don't have enough knowledge of these cable designs to do it properly.

On a side note - is there a way, through hardware, to force single channel audio into both the left and right channel? When I record the watch ticking, it only plays on the right side. I know you can put it on both channels through software but what about a hardware solution?

:-!


----------



## audiomagnate

24h said:


> The last 8 seconds of Test 5 is my best sample with the least amount of hum.
> Now that I think about it, I believe that he actually used a shielded RCA cable soldered to the pickup mic and it produced almost zero hum.
> I don't have enough knowledge of these cable designs to do it properly.
> 
> On a side note - is there a way, through hardware, to force single channel audio into both the left and right channel? When I record the watch ticking, it only plays on the right side. I know you can put it on both channels through software but what about a hardware solution?
> 
> :-!


That's better, but still a lot of hum. https://www.amazon.com/Mizar-3-5mm-Stereo-Audio-Adapter/dp/B01DZV37VY/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1524155837&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=1%2F8+female+to+rca+male+y+adaptor&psc=1


----------



## 24h

audiomagnate said:


> That's better, but still a lot of hum. https://www.amazon.com/Mizar-3-5mm-Stereo-Audio-Adapter/dp/B01DZV37VY/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1524155837&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=1%2F8+female+to+rca+male+y+adaptor&psc=1


Wouldn't the female end need to be 6.5mm to accommodate the mic?
The only 3.5mm in my setup is the 3.5mm male that goes into the computer


----------



## audiomagnate

You're right, if that's what's on the end of your mic.


----------



## 24h

audiomagnate said:


> You're right, if that's what's on the end of your mic.


Odd...I can't find a 6.5mm female to 2 male RCA.

I guess I'll need to add ANOTHER between the mic and pre-amp
https://www.amazon.com/InstallerParts-Splitter-Compatible-Most-Audio-Systems/dp/B008NCD5WC/


----------



## 24h

I'm getting output on both channels from the adapter I just purchased. Now to do something about the buzzing o|


----------



## audiomagnate

24h said:


> I'm getting output on both channels from the adapter I just purchased. Now to do something about the buzzing o|


https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-50...UTF8&qid=1525630292&sr=8-1&keywords=xenyx+502


----------



## 24h

audiomagnate said:


> 24h said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting output on both channels from the adapter I just purchased. Now to do something about the buzzing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-50...UTF8&qid=1525630292&sr=8-1&keywords=xenyx+502
Click to expand...

Managed to eliminate some of the buzzing in my setup with a high pass filter. It's good enough to use with the timing software and OK to listen to but it's still not perfect. I think before I buy another pre-amp I will make a few of my own piezo pickups as I just purchased 20 extras.

Edit: I actually tested with a different higher quality pre-amp and I'm still having a similar sound. I believe the mic is just not properly shielded and/or piezo is picking up other signals from screens/microwave/lights.


----------



## 24h

Equalizer APO with Peace plug-in high pass filter seemed to improve the sound tremendously!
Audio: https://clyp.it/ke0zxt03


----------



## reddisc1

linux.author said:


> tks for the OS X install - i just upgraded to High Sierra and basically:
> 
> 1. uninstalled brew
> 2. installed brew
> 3. installed:
> 'brew install dmnc/horology/tg'
> 
> and now i'm back up with tg-timer!
> 
> tks!
> 
> works great and is a fabulous tool - most appreciated!


Did you do any changes in your mac other than switching to an external microphone as the input? I've tried using both a piezo mic and a Røde M3 mic and I can't get any readings in TG at all... I'm using a Steinberg UR22 connected to my mac and it seems that both mics are connecting and is giving audio (I can record the ticking fine in Logic), but nothing happens in TG timer. I've already calibrated with a quartz watch from the internal mic, but the program just won't pick up anything with external mics.

TIA


----------



## 24h

reddisc1 said:


> Did you do any changes in your mac other than switching to an external microphone as the input? I've tried using both a piezo mic and a Røde M3 mic and I can't get any readings in TG at all... I'm using a Steinberg UR22 connected to my mac and it seems that both mics are connecting and is giving audio (I can record the ticking fine in Logic), but nothing happens in TG timer. I've already calibrated with a quartz watch from the internal mic, but the program just won't pick up anything with external mics.
> 
> TIA


I'm nowhere near an expert in this area, but I've been playing around A LOT lately with various timing applications.
Do you have a recording of the audio that your mics are picking up?


----------



## MadBunny

This works well on my Surface Pro 4 using the stock mic on the back of the device.


----------



## linux.author

reddisc1 said:


> Did you do any changes in your mac other than switching to an external microphone as the input? I've tried using both a piezo mic and a Røde M3 mic and I can't get any readings in TG at all... I'm using a Steinberg UR22 connected to my mac and it seems that both mics are connecting and is giving audio (I can record the ticking fine in Logic), but nothing happens in TG timer. I've already calibrated with a quartz watch from the internal mic, but the program just won't pick up anything with external mics.
> 
> TIA


i use a Logitech C270 webcam at the mic input - plug into the USB port, adjust settings (Apple->System Preferences->Sound->Input tab)... tg-timer should use the default sound input according to system prefs

btw, tg-timer continues working just fine under OS X 10.13.5

hth,

willie
on the Gulf of Mexico


----------



## coralnut

I am having problems getting the program up and running properly. I am on Fedora 27. I used git to download the source and compiled it with no problems. I can run the "tg-timer" which seems to work fine with a logitech webcam microphone -- I have no problems picking up data from any of my mechanical watches using the logitech webcam.









My problem is that I cannot get the software to calibrate.

I am attempting to calibrate by placing the webcam mic on one of my quartz watches. When I attempt to calibrate by checking the "calibrate" box in the upper right menu. the software responds by displaying the red clock and the "cal (wait) 0%" comments. Occasionally (rarely) the clock will turn green for a moment and the dialog will report "cal (acq) 0%" but then immediately goes back to "cal (wait 0%)" and nothing else ever happens. The calibration procedure is never completed.

Unfortunately, the "documentation" in the earlier post doesn't really explain what is supposed to be happening or what these cryptic comments mean, or how to troubleshoot if the system fails. That lack of disclosure makes it impossible to debug the failed calibration procedure.

by any chance is there a debug mode in which additional status information is displayed? or additional documentation somewhere that better explains the calibration procedure?

thanks.


----------



## 24h

coralnut said:


> My problem is that I cannot get the software to calibrate.
> 
> I am attempting to calibrate by placing the webcam mic on one of my quartz watches. When I attempt to calibrate by checking the "calibrate" box in the upper right menu. the software responds by displaying the red clock and the "cal (wait) 0%" comments. Occasionally (rarely) the clock will turn green for a moment and the dialog will report "cal (acq) 0%" but then immediately goes back to "cal (wait 0%)" and nothing else ever happens. The calibration procedure is never completed.
> 
> Unfortunately, the "documentation" in the earlier post doesn't really explain what is supposed to be happening or what these cryptic comments mean, or how to troubleshoot if the system fails. That lack of disclosure makes it impossible to debug the failed calibration procedure.
> 
> by any chance is there a debug mode in which additional status information is displayed? or additional documentation somewhere that better explains the calibration procedure?
> 
> thanks.


Can you get the software to determine the rate of your quartz watch?
Maybe the audio signal isn't ideal and the software is having issues differentiating the "ticks".


----------



## coralnut

24h said:


> Can you get the software to determine the rate of your quartz watch?


No.

I have tried a few different quartz watches, all with the same result -- the calibration procedure does not complete and no intelligible error codes are issued. All that I see is a red clock face icon (which I assume is bad because it is red), an occasional green clock face icon (which I assume is supposed to indicate something good, but I'm not sure what), along with some animated stacked squares next to the clock face (who's meaning is undefined), and a progress meter that stays on 0%.



> Maybe the audio signal isn't ideal and the software is having issues differentiating the "ticks".


I'm reluctant to make assumptions, but perhaps the problem is that the mic isn't picking up the quartz watch ticks. To eliminate that possibility I have tried several different quartz watches, none of which seem to work. All the mechanical watches seem to work fine.

I'm not quite sure what the calibration procedure is supposed to accomplish. It's not clearly explained anywhere. The result displayed in the calibration box is a dimensionless number. Should we assume that sample 0.8 number is a rate that is expressed in units of seconds/day?


----------



## Stuey63

I reckon your mic signal isn't high enough. Calibration can take some time, like 15 mins, but it usually does it continuously in my experience - there may be some small breaks in 'transmission'. The green squares indicate signal strength I believe, and when working well all four will be displayed (same when using the program after you've set it up).


----------



## contrate_wheel

coralnut said:


> by any chance is there a debug mode in which additional status information is displayed?


Hi, thanks a lot for your post.

There is a debug version which puts a lot of even more cryptic stuff on stdout and draws mysterious graphs. You have to run "make tg-timer-dbg" instead of "make tg-timer".

Perhaps, I can try to debug this issue. Could you record a minute or so of your favorite quartz watch and send it to me?


----------



## coralnut

contrate_wheel said:


> Could you record a minute or so of your favorite quartz watch and send it to me?


Sure... though I'm not quite sure of what you're asking for -- I'm familiar with taking snapshots but I'm not aware of a recording mode in the software. If you could explain exactly what you'd like me to do, I'd be happy to do it. My suspicion though, is that we're going to see that none of my quartz watches are being picked up by the mic. I typically see only a screen that shows nothing happening.









My suspicion is that the sofware has no problem picking up the sound of my mechanical watches (see previous images) but that the software just isn't able to hear my quartz watches, even with the preamp gain full-on. It seems that the quartz watches are just too quiet for this type of mic. Of course, this is all guessing on my part, as I'm not getting any clear error message out of the software. That is to say, maybe I just don't know what I should be looking for.

Thanks.


----------



## 24h

coralnut said:


> Sure... though I'm not quite sure of what you're asking for -- I'm familiar with taking snapshots but I'm not aware of a recording mode in the software. If you could explain exactly what you'd like me to do, I'd be happy to do it. My suspicion though, is that we're going to see that none of my quartz watches are being picked up by the mic. I typically see only a screen that shows nothing happening.
> 
> My suspicion is that the sofware has no problem picking up the sound of my mechanical watches (see previous images) but that the software just isn't able to hear my quartz watches, even with the preamp gain full-on. It seems that the quartz watches are just too quiet for this type of mic. Of course, this is all guessing on my part, as I'm not getting any clear error message out of the software. That is to say, maybe I just don't know what I should be looking for.
> 
> Thanks.


Download Audacity (it's free) and make a recording though that.


----------



## contrate_wheel

24h said:


> Download Audacity (it's free) and make a recording though that.


Thanks.

*@coralnut:* as 24h says, just make an audio recording with whatever program (Audacity is excellent, and probably you have it in Fedora). Use the same mic setup that you would with tg.


----------



## blackarrow

Any recommendation for a low cost microphone I could buy? I wanted to buy piezo clip (as it is stated in pdf user's guide) but it has not 3,5 mm jack which I could use with my computer (just like any other microphone).


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

Hi blackarrow,

if you want to verify, that a piezo mic is really insufficient without an amplifier, you can search for a 6,3mm mono to 3,5mm strereo adaptor (in which I had no luck). Mono to stereo adaptor for the reason of definitely not shorting right channel to ground.
If you are familiar with soldering, then just use a 3,5mm stereo jack and solder it to the cable instead of the 6,3mm mono. Or just cut the cable with jack from an old headphone and solder it to the pick up clip.

br Klaus


----------



## Ciro

Seahawk said:


> I would like to thank the developer for the lovely software. I tried it with small 27mm piezo sensor (Clip on guitar sensors will be ok as well) and Kemo M040N preamp with 9v battery and I only could say WOW.


Hi chaps,
I got a Kemo M040n preamp.
Has anyone got idea how to use it to make TG works? (some one here said used with TG, it was "WOW")


----------



## blackarrow

Klaus Tickalot said:


> Hi blackarrow,
> 
> if you want to verify, that a piezo mic is really insufficient without an amplifier, you can search for a 6,3mm mono to 3,5mm strereo adaptor (in which I had no luck). Mono to stereo adaptor for the reason of definitely not shorting right channel to ground.
> If you are familiar with soldering, then just use a 3,5mm stereo jack and solder it to the cable instead of the 6,3mm mono. Or just cut the cable with jack from an old headphone and solder it to the pick up clip.
> 
> br Klaus


Thanks. I managed to find some pickup microphone on eBay, but not sure if they will work properly.








It has a standard 3,5 mm jack.

However, if I look up my microphone jack on the Microsoft Surface it is combined jack for microphone & earphones. Is this a problem if I have combined jack only?


----------



## Ciro

Hi,

Any one got idea why when using TG, it keeps all the time like this:
Rock-steady -1739 s/d 00ms 000deg 
The rest (paper strip emulator, scape cycles windows and waveform), seem working and changing constantly.


----------



## coralnut

contrate_wheel said:


> Thanks.
> 
> *@coralnut:* as 24h says, just make an audio recording with whatever program (Audacity is excellent, and probably you have it in Fedora). Use the same mic setup that you would with tg.


Sorry for the delayed reply.

I am familiar with Audacity, but I have't been able to use it lately due to a library incompatibility problem that's come along with a recent software upgrade. The result is that when I attempt to record, Audacity does not use the sampling rate and bit depth that I specify and the results turn out to be unpredictable and inconsistent. Once I have it working again, what settings do you require as recording defaults?

Back to the subject of calibration -- I'm having trouble understanding why we have a quartz-referenced calibration procedure in the first place, for two reasons:

First, Quartz isn't all that accurate. That is to say, Quartz is better than most mechanical movements, but it's nowhere near as accurate as a computer clock that's running at megahertz frequencies. Quartz watch accuracy is on the order of +/- 500 milliseconds/day. Although that's better than many mechanical movements, 1/2 spd isn't a good accuracy reference if you're trying to measure a watch that has an accuracy on the order of 2 spd. The Nyquist theorem tells us that sampling at 2x the desired frequency is the absolute minimum acceptable standard. With a quartz reference we barely have enough accuracy to measure the performance of a mechanical chronometer with a resolution of +/- 2 spd.

Second, any modern computer is equipped with a Network Time Protocol based system clock that operates at megahertz frequency. My plain-Jane Fedora system uses Chronyd, which performs regular time-syncs, polling it's upstream time server every 2^6 seconds, and between polls it automatically compensates for any skew in the system clock. The following query shows that the NTP-calibrated system clock on my PC is 1.78 _nanoseconds_ slow of NST.gov's atomic NTP time as I type this:



Code:


[FONT=monospace][COLOR=#5454FF][B]#[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000] chronyc tracking                                                                                                  [/COLOR]
Reference ID    : 0A0A0A01 (*********)
Stratum         : 2
Ref time (UTC)  : Mon Aug 13 22:58:52 2018
[B]System time     : 0.000001780 seconds slow of NTP time[/B]
Last offset     : -0.000003389 seconds
RMS offset      : 0.000005357 seconds
Frequency       : 37.157 ppm fast
Residual freq   : -0.002 ppm
Skew            : 0.077 ppm
Root delay      : 0.036606569 seconds
Root dispersion : 0.047560256 seconds
Update interval : 64.6 seconds
Leap status     : Normal
[/FONT]

Nanosecond resolution is millions of times higher resolution than millisecond resolution. Using a quartz based reference that has accuracy on the order of 500 msec doesn't seem worth the effort when a call to the system clock can obtain time at 1.78 nsec resolution. That's actually a difference of what, 280 million times higher frequency?

Given that any modern PC uses NTP time sycing (Microsoft, Apple or Linux, take your pick), nanosecond level time accuracy is available on any modern PC. I don't understand why the timing software is querying the soundcard clock as a time reference, as the soundcard clock is uncalibrated. It also doesn't make sense to me why the software expects a user to use a quartz-based calibration procedure using an external time source (watch) when polling the system clock would provide a reference source for calibration that's accurate to the nanosecond level and is presumably hundreds of millions of times more accurate. Polling the soundcard for timing seems like it would provide a lesser result than polling the system clock on any NTP-based PC system.

I have to assume that I'm misunderstanding something. Thanks for your time.


----------



## 24h

coralnut said:


> Sorry for the delayed reply.
> 
> I am familiar with Audacity, but I have't been able to use it lately due to a library incompatibility problem that's come along with a recent software upgrade. The result is that when I attempt to record, Audacity does not use the sampling rate and bit depth that I specify and the results turn out to be unpredictable and inconsistent. Once I have it working again, what settings do you require as recording defaults?
> 
> Back to the subject of calibration -- I'm having trouble understanding why we have a quartz-referenced calibration procedure in the first place, for two reasons:
> 
> First, Quartz isn't all that accurate. That is to say, Quartz is better than most mechanical movements, but it's nowhere near as accurate as a computer clock that's running at megahertz frequencies. Quartz watch accuracy is on the order of +/- 500 milliseconds/day. Although that's better than many mechanical movements, 1/2 spd isn't a good accuracy reference if you're trying to measure a watch that has an accuracy on the order of 2 spd. The Nyquist theorem tells us that sampling at 2x the desired frequency is the absolute minimum acceptable standard. With a quartz reference we barely have enough accuracy to measure the performance of a mechanical chronometer with a resolution of +/- 2 spd.
> 
> Second, any modern computer is equipped with a Network Time Protocol based system clock that operates at megahertz frequency. My plain-Jane Fedora system uses Chronyd, which performs regular time-syncs, polling it's upstream time server every 2^6 seconds, and between polls it automatically compensates for any skew in the system clock. The following query shows that the NTP-calibrated system clock on my PC is 1.78 _nanoseconds_ slow of NST.gov's atomic NTP time as I type this:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [FONT=monospace][COLOR=#5454FF][B]#[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000] chronyc tracking                                                                                                  [/COLOR]
> Reference ID    : 0A0A0A01 (*********)
> Stratum         : 2
> Ref time (UTC)  : Mon Aug 13 22:58:52 2018
> [B]System time     : 0.000001780 seconds slow of NTP time[/B]
> Last offset     : -0.000003389 seconds
> RMS offset      : 0.000005357 seconds
> Frequency       : 37.157 ppm fast
> Residual freq   : -0.002 ppm
> Skew            : 0.077 ppm
> Root delay      : 0.036606569 seconds
> Root dispersion : 0.047560256 seconds
> Update interval : 64.6 seconds
> Leap status     : Normal
> [/FONT]
> 
> Nanosecond resolution is millions of times higher resolution than millisecond resolution. Using a quartz based reference that has accuracy on the order of 500 msec doesn't seem worth the effort when a call to the system clock can obtain time at 1.78 nsec resolution. That's actually a difference of what, 280 million times higher frequency?
> 
> Given that any modern PC uses NTP time sycing (Microsoft, Apple or Linux, take your pick), nanosecond level time accuracy is available on any modern PC. I don't understand why the timing software is querying the soundcard clock as a time reference, as the soundcard clock is uncalibrated. It also doesn't make sense to me why the software expects a user to use a quartz-based calibration procedure using an external time source (watch) when polling the system clock would provide a reference source for calibration that's accurate to the nanosecond level and is presumably hundreds of millions of times more accurate. Polling the soundcard for timing seems like it would provide a lesser result than polling the system clock on any NTP-based PC system.
> 
> I have to assume that I'm misunderstanding something. Thanks for your time.


While I don't fully understand how a computer's clock functions related to the processor, I believe that in the case of watch timing software we are solely relying on the sound card clock.
I find the best way to calibrate TG and Watch-O-Scope is to start a timing test for a quartz watch with an app like Toolwatch.io for an ENTIRE month while storing your watch somewhere with a consistent temperature.
The readout in this app is your KNOWN RATE.

For this example, let's say that the known rate is +0.4 s/d.
Now, start a calibration in the software. We'll use a CALIBRATION readout of -0.6 s/d.
Subtract KNOWN RATE from CALIBRATION. 
-0.6 - 0.4 = -1.0

Since the software is effectively 1 second slow we need to correct it with a positive number.
Enter the calibration value of +1.0 in the software.
If your number after performing the subtraction is positive, use a negative number for the calibration value.


----------



## Iandk

coralnut said:


> Given that any modern PC uses NTP time sycing (Microsoft, Apple or Linux, take your pick), nanosecond level time accuracy is available on any modern PC. I don't understand why the timing software is querying the soundcard clock as a time reference, as the soundcard clock is uncalibrated. It also doesn't make sense to me why the software expects a user to use a quartz-based calibration procedure using an external time source (watch) when polling the system clock would provide a reference source for calibration that's accurate to the nanosecond level and is presumably hundreds of millions of times more accurate. Polling the soundcard for timing seems like it would provide a lesser result than polling the system clock on any NTP-based PC system.


The reason behind this is because the audio that comes in through the mic is converted by your soundcard into your digital waveform by its DAC, at a sampling rate of (for example) 44.1khz. The trick is, of course, with the soundcard's own quartz crystal reference which is part of the DAC circuitry to time its sampling rate, which depending on the sound card's electronics, is very likely not running at exactly 44.1khz. This could be due to quality of crystal oscillator (high quality ones can cost more than your typical sound card costs in total), voltage control to set its reference frequency, temperature of the crystal (which the sound card likely doesn't even take into account), or even aging of the crystal.

Hence the requirement to calibrate TG so that it knows what sampling rate of the digital audio actually is, since though you might tell the sound card that you want audio at 44.1khz, it's not going to be exactly that (from reports I've read most sound cards tend to be off within +/- 100ppm).

Now, as for the computer's clock, since it's completely out of the loop with regards to the DAC circuitry, it can't be used to help in that regard.


----------



## Stuey63

Coralnut, all I can say is that it seems to work well. Here's the designer's explanation of how the calibration works...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/open-source-timing-software-2542874-post29970370.html#post29970370


----------



## contrate_wheel

coralnut said:


> ...
> 
> Nanosecond resolution is millions of times higher resolution than millisecond resolution. Using a quartz based reference that has accuracy on the order of 500 msec doesn't seem worth the effort when a call to the system clock can obtain time at 1.78 nsec resolution. That's actually a difference of what, 280 million times higher frequency?
> 
> Given that any modern PC uses NTP time sycing (Microsoft, Apple or Linux, take your pick), nanosecond level time accuracy is available on any modern PC. I don't understand why the timing software is querying the soundcard clock as a time reference, as the soundcard clock is uncalibrated. It also doesn't make sense to me why the software expects a user to use a quartz-based calibration procedure using an external time source (watch) when polling the system clock would provide a reference source for calibration that's accurate to the nanosecond level and is presumably hundreds of millions of times more accurate. Polling the soundcard for timing seems like it would provide a lesser result than polling the system clock on any NTP-based PC system.
> 
> I have to assume that I'm misunderstanding something. Thanks for your time.


Thanks for you comments, and to all those that answered already. I don't have much to add to their excellent responses, yet, maybe, I can clear up some misunderstanding.

The system clock of a modern pc, when disciplined via NTP, would time mechanical watches adequately, no question about that. However, let me point out that the situation is not precisely as the lines above imply. From a typical home network, connected via DSL, one might have a 30ms round trip time to a geographically close internet node (just try ping google.com). This is about the inherent uncertainty of any internet based synchronization mechanism. By averaging several samples and assuming that the round trip is symmetric (which often a DSL connection is not), NTP might bring the uncertainty down to a few milliseconds. Nanoseconds, however, no way. It's like measuring lengths with a stick having marks every 30mm: with a bit of luck, one might guess the nearest millimeter, but nanometers? Quoting from ntp.org: Home of the Network Time Protocol (I'll assume they know their stuff).



> The typical accuracy on the Internet ranges from about 5ms to 100ms, possibly varying with network delays. A recent survey suggests that 90% of the NTP servers have network delays below 100ms, and about 99% are synchronized within one second to the synchronization peer.


Yet, even though it is not nanosecond accurate, I believe that the system clock of a PC is a decent reference for our task of timing watches. The real problem, for me, is to interface with the system clock. There are two obstacles. The first and largest one is that I get sound samples, obviously, through the sound card (which, nowadays, is often integrated into whatever chip on the mainboard). This particular piece of hardware has, in general, its own clock, so this is the clock that times the samples, and, by necessity, this is the clock that I have to characterize. To handle sound in a cross-platform portable manner, I rely on a library called portaudio, used and developed by the Audacity folks. This library, hands to tg a bunch of samples every now and then: it's up to the library itself to decide precisely when. Portaudio, in turn, receives the audio from whatever underlying infrastructure the operating system might have, and the OS receives it from the hardware. Now, there is a unpredictable and unspecified delay at each step of this chain, so I cannot know, at any given moment, when the sound samples that tg just received have been actually collected. Then, if I had to correlate this samples with the system clock, I would have another bunch of uncertainties coming from it, even though it is generally more reliable. For instance, you see that on your very machine the ntp daemon resets the clock every ten minutes: how could tg know when the clock is being reset on every system? Surely there will be machines that just set the time once when they are powered on, or some that never do it (consider that tg has been installed on Raspberry Pi's): for timing purposes this is the same, and these computer clocks are often quite bad if not reset by NTP. In conclusion, I would have to embed a little NTP client inside tg just to get a reliable time source, and even if, then, I cannot reliably correlate it with the sound card clock anyway.

My solution has been to use a time signal that is fed directly through the sound card, so the correlation is effected by just timing the reference clock with the device that I want to characterize. This is the direct simple solution, and, I believe, rather robust. I do not say that one cannot use system clock plus NTP. I say that I cannot do it reliably in a manner that works cross-platform on most setups.

Edit. I understand that the 0.5s/d of a quartz watch might sound less than impressive, but that is just the level of uncertainty of the rest of the system. Consider that 0.5s/d is 5ppm, or 0.1ms in 20s. Tg integrates samples over a period of 16s, and one can not realistically ask more than 0.1ms, corresponding to 10KHz, from the audio, which is cut at 20KHz by the anti-aliasing filter anyway.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Ciro said:


> Hi,
> 
> Any one got idea why when using TG, it keeps all the time like this:
> Rock-steady -1739 s/d 00ms 000deg
> The rest (paper strip emulator, scape cycles windows and waveform), seem working and changing constantly.


Hi, sorry, I missed your post. Like that, I have no idea. Could you please record about a minute of the very same sound that you are feeding tg, using Audacity or any other similar program, and then post or send to me the recording. With that, I can try to debug your issue.


----------



## andy_hull

Just a quick thank you to the author of this software for all the hard work and many hours that have gone in to designing, testing and distributing it. 

It installed without issue, from the .debs on my two Ubuntu 18.04 laptops (one old 32bit one and one new 64 bit one). 

The only problem I've discovered so far is that my Thinkpad T460 has been designed by an idiot who thought it a good idea to place the microphone adjacent to the trackpad and next to the fan. Needless to say, the intermittent fan noise is an issue when trying to decipher the gentle ticking of watch, and every trackpad move or click throws up spurious results. The rather obvious solution is to use an external microphone. My other, older laptop has no such issues, and worked perfectly first time. 

Thanks once again for this very functional and capable piece of work. I'm going to have a lot of watch tinkering fun using it.


----------



## andy_hull

Just a quick thank you to the author of this software for all the hard work and many hours that have gone in to designing, testing and distributing it. 

It installed without issue, from the .debs on my two Ubuntu 18.04 laptops (one old 32bit one and one new 64 bit one). 

The only problem I've discovered so far is that my Thinkpad T460 has been designed by an idiot who thought it a good idea to place the microphone adjacent to the trackpad and next to the fan. Needless to say, the intermittent fan noise is an issue when trying to decipher the gentle ticking of watch, and every trackpad move or click throws up spurious results. The rather obvious solution is to use an external microphone. My other, older laptop has no such issues, and worked perfectly first time. 

Thanks once again for this very functional and capable piece of work. I'm going to have a lot of watch tinkering fun using it.


----------



## louloukos

Sorry double post


----------



## louloukos

Anyone having problems measuring a rolex because of the chiming echoe sound of the movement ?
I pass the sound via Ableton to EQ it a bit but its a bit jumpy. My Omega is way easier and clean (sound).

I use a guitar piezo for tuning etc. Via a mixer with dedicated Mic input.


----------



## louloukos

contrate_wheel said:


> I can try to debug your issue.


any idea how to get more logging out of it?
im trying to calibrate with a good gps pps signal with gives a good (as i see it) signal when passed via Abletons spectrum analyser and some EQIng but in the end i get "fail". The "dot" display seems good.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

louloukos said:


> Anyone having problems measuring a rolex because of the chiming echoe sound of the movement ?
> I pass the sound via Ableton to EQ it a bit but its a bit jumpy. My Omega is way easier and clean (sound).
> 
> I use a guitar piezo for tuning etc. Via a mixer with dedicated Mic input.


If you could share an audio file to browse we may be able to offer help.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

louloukos said:


> Anyone having problems measuring a rolex because of the chiming echoe sound of the movement ?
> I pass the sound via Ableton to EQ it a bit but its a bit jumpy. My Omega is way easier and clean (sound).
> 
> I use a guitar piezo for tuning etc. Via a mixer with dedicated Mic input.


If you could share an audio file to browse we may be able to offer help.


----------



## 24h

louloukos said:


> Anyone having problems measuring a rolex because of the chiming echoe sound of the movement ?
> I pass the sound via Ableton to EQ it a bit but its a bit jumpy. My Omega is way easier and clean (sound).
> 
> I use a guitar piezo for tuning etc. Via a mixer with dedicated Mic input.





Guido Velasquez said:


> If you could share an audio file to browse we may be able to offer help.


Some of my watches suffer from this problem also. I think the culprit is mostly the echoing from your case/movement ring/caseback.
Also it's possible that if you are using a standard piezo disk, it it deformed from the force of your watch crown and the audio signal is distorted.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

coralnut said:


> I am having problems getting the program up and running properly. I am on Fedora 27. I used git to download the source and compiled it with no problems. I can run the "tg-timer" which seems to work fine with a logitech webcam microphone -- I have no problems picking up data from any of my mechanical watches using the logitech webcam.
> 
> View attachment 13292807
> 
> 
> My problem is that I cannot get the software to calibrate.
> 
> I am attempting to calibrate by placing the webcam mic on one of my quartz watches. When I attempt to calibrate by checking the "calibrate" box in the upper right menu. the software responds by displaying the red clock and the "cal (wait) 0%" comments. Occasionally (rarely) the clock will turn green for a moment and the dialog will report "cal (acq) 0%" but then immediately goes back to "cal (wait 0%)" and nothing else ever happens. The calibration procedure is never completed.
> 
> Unfortunately, the "documentation" in the earlier post doesn't really explain what is supposed to be happening or what these cryptic comments mean, or how to troubleshoot if the system fails. That lack of disclosure makes it impossible to debug the failed calibration procedure.
> 
> by any chance is there a debug mode in which additional status information is displayed? or additional documentation somewhere that better explains the calibration procedure?
> 
> thanks.


https://reparacionderelojes.weebly....2213567/manual_for_tg_timming_machine_2.3.pdf

It is important that the software clearly hear the ticking of the step-by-step motor of the quartz watch. When the indicator clock changes from green to red, it is indicating that the reference sound is not good. It is best to use a piezoelectric contact microphone, as this neutralizes any ambient sound.


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## Greggg3

not sure which version I need, 0.5.0 or 0.4.0 ? Assuming the 0.4.0 is still there for a reason (some advantage or preference over 0.5.0?) Any advice for a newbie to this application


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## Guido Velasquez

Personally I prefer version 4 In a sense it seems more consistent. However, it may be due to how I use the software. Any of the 2 is excellent.


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## Guido Velasquez

Here the difference between the versions. I like the paper strip simulation of version 4 more. The points look less scattered.


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## Guido Velasquez

Here the difference between the versions. I like the paper strip simulation of version 4 more. The points look less scattered.


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## linux.author

reddisc1 said:


> Did you do any changes in your mac other than switching to an external microphone as the input? I've tried using both a piezo mic and a Røde M3 mic and I can't get any readings in TG at all... I'm using a Steinberg UR22 connected to my mac and it seems that both mics are connecting and is giving audio (I can record the ticking fine in Logic), but nothing happens in TG timer. I've already calibrated with a quartz watch from the internal mic, but the program just won't pick up anything with external mics.
> 
> TIA


sorry to take so long to reply (hope you've solved the problem)... i use nothing special except a usb logitech webcam for the mic input (selected via Apple->System Preferences->Sound->Input)

hth

willie
on the Gulf of Mexico


----------



## Goodfellas

I realize that I am late to the party but I just saw this thread. First, I want to extend a thanks to the OP for putting so much time and effort into creating this software. I have not yet downloaded it and I have a question. Do I just need a microphone in addition to the software? I have a webcam that is on a movable arm and not built into my desktop. I'm not sure if the arm is strong enough to hold the weight of my larger watches. Any advice on how to place the camera/watch in different positions for testing? Should I consider buying a separate microphone? Does the software enable the mic or must you use the camera software, in my case Logitech. Thank you!


----------



## Maximus Panin

Many thanks to the developer of the program! 
As you advised, I used the built-in microphone on my laptop.
Thanks again!


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## linux.author

alas, although 0.4.0 and 0.5.0 both build under the latest Raspbian Buster distro on the Raspberry Pi, the code fails with errors in sound values during calls to ALSA libraries and code... i have been unable to effect a fix...

fortunately i still have an RPi with Raspbian Jessie installed - both 0.4.0 and 0.5.0 run fine on that distro version... i'll just keep backups until the issue can be sorted...

it would be great if tg-timer could get into the Raspbian repositories...

willie
on the Gulf of Mexico


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## linux.author

i will keep working on the issue, but frankly, don't have that deep-level expertise - i did get successful builds, which makes this frustrating...


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## Goodfellas

I have just started to use this great program, and thank you for that OP! I am trying to figure out the best way to use it. I read about calibration and a bit about the sound cards but it is unclear, at least to me. I actually don't have any quartz watches so maybe there is another way? Below is what I'm running. Any help would be appreciated. 

* Acer Desktop PC (unsure of the model)
* Intel Core i5-4590 CPU 3.3GHz
* 8 GB RAM
* Windows 10 Pro 64-bit OS
* Build in sound card
* Realtek Audio (soundcard?, software?, I don't know)
* Steelseries Headset
* Logitech HD Pro Webcam C920 (current default)

When I launch the program, it struggles to provide readings. If I hold the watch against the camera firmly, it reads for a few seconds but then jumps all over the place. When I leave it alone, sometimes it gives expected results but only briefly. The rest of the time everything is off the charts. To me, it looks like it's not able to pick up a steady stream of sound but I don't know. I have tried with both microphones with approximately the same results. 

I do have a Witschi knock-off timegrapher that I use to regulate movements but I would love to switch to this system! Thank you again OP and WUS contributors!


----------



## Goodfellas

Sorry double post


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

GratisShark
have a look, if you can raise/adjust the input level of your microphone with Realtek Audio avoiding excessive hum at the same time prior to calibration. Give it a try with and without noise reduction and echo repression. For my setup both deactivated works best.

Re the availability of a quartz watch: next weekend is comming soon. Go out and ask somone "vintage enough" wearing a quartz watch instead of some smart gear, if - presumably she - is willing to give you a hand calibrating.
Be aware: a brandnew original Witschi might turn out less expensive over time :-d

Klaus


----------



## Goodfellas

Klaus Tickalot said:


> GratisShark
> have a look, if you can raise/adjust the input level of your microphone with Realtek Audio avoiding excessive hum at the same time prior to calibration. Give it a try with and without noise reduction and echo repression. For my setup both deactivated works best.
> 
> Re the availability of a quartz watch: next weekend is comming soon. Go out and ask somone "vintage enough" wearing a quartz watch instead of some smart gear, if - presumably she - is willing to give you a hand calibrating.
> Be aware: a brandnew original Witschi might turn out less expensive over time :-d
> 
> Klaus


Thank you for the suggestions Klaus Tickalot! I will try to play with the microphone settings. Maybe I'm missing something on your last sentence but what do you mean by a Witschi being less expensive over time? I have been contemplating buying one but the price has kept me from doing so.


----------



## Goodfellas

Klaus Tickalot said:


> GratisShark
> have a look, if you can raise/adjust the input level of your microphone with Realtek Audio avoiding excessive hum at the same time prior to calibration. Give it a try with and without noise reduction and echo repression. For my setup both deactivated works best.
> 
> Re the availability of a quartz watch: next weekend is comming soon. Go out and ask somone "vintage enough" wearing a quartz watch instead of some smart gear, if - presumably she - is willing to give you a hand calibrating.
> Be aware: a brandnew original Witschi might turn out less expensive over time :-d
> 
> Klaus


Thank you for the suggestions Klaus Tickalot! I will try to play with the microphone settings. Maybe I'm missing something on your last sentence but what do you mean by a Witschi being less expensive over time? I have been contemplating buying one but the price has kept me from doing so.


----------



## jackie01

Hi guys,

I have a problem with interpreting this graphs. I have two different amplitude readings. Which one is correct - 167deg or 307deg ?

View attachment 14392927


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

Hi jackie01,

Short version: neither nor

Long version: I reckon the lift-angle of 39° isn't set correct for a 28.800 bph movement (if it isn't a co-axial). Try with 52°. 
But even then you will get a poor amplitude of about 222°. A good clean and fresh oil will help, in particular escapement i.e. pallet stones and escape wheel.
At least in your first graph with 167° all three sounds have been detected, witch is "less wrong"
Tg0.5.0 isn't co-axial capable as far as I know.
Which movement did you test?

Klaus


----------



## jackie01

Hello Klaus. Thanks You for reply. I test a Citizen 8110A and i found 39deg lift angel for this movement somewhere. I will try 52.

Edit: Yeah You're right - with 52deg lift angel I have something about 225-230deg of amplitude.









I am waiting for new piezo mic for the timegrapher. Now I use build-in notebook mic so i think that measurments don't be accurate now.


----------



## Klaus Tickalot

jackie01 said:


> Hello Klaus. Thanks You for reply. I test a Citizen 8110A and i found 39deg lift angel for this movement somewhere. I will try 52.
> 
> Edit: Yeah You're right - with 52deg lift angel I have something about 225-230deg of amplitude.


my fault, you were absolutely right. I missed the CTZ8110A with its "strange" liftangle. There is even a liftangle given of 36° (watchguy.co.uk).
"Strange" because I don't understand (by now). Maybe in a few years I'll comment on this once I got it :-d:-d
Nevertheless the escapement is in need of an oil change.


----------



## Mostly Watching

Firstly, let me say thank you, contrate_wheel, for developing and releasing this software under the GPL. I was about to buy a Timegrapher 1000, but then found Tg, which is definitely the way to go. I've used Tg quite a bit now, and think it's great! I'm most grateful for this.

I have some improvement suggestions:

1. Tg displays a near-instantaneous value for a watch's current rate. The current rate is useful when regulating. However, once the rate has been set and looks to be satisfactory, I like to run some longer tests, in different positions, to check whether I really do have the rate right, or it was just a short-term blip. Sometimes, the rate of a watch can wander slightly over a period of several minutes, and then swing back again. In this case, having an instantaneous rate measurement isn't useful on its own. A longer, averaged value is also needed. (Whilst perfectionists might only be happy with a dead straight line on the graph, I'm a beginner, and am happy with a watch that just keeps good time overall.)

So I would find it very useful if Tg, in addition to what it already displays, also displayed an averaged value of the rate. This would be a very simple calculation based on the first and last measurements of the trace, taken either from the start time, or the last time the "Clear" button were pressed.

I know a date-time display is on the to-do list. To further facilitate averaging, an elapsed time display (from program start or "Clear" event) would also be useful.

The alternative to this suggestion is leaving the watch running for a day or so, and comparing it manually against an atomic clock time reference. This works fine, but it would be far more convenient if Tg would do this itself over a shorter, user-selectable measurement period. The user would "select" the measurement period by starting Tg or clicking "Clear", then waiting the chosen length of time.

I considered whether averages of the beat error and amplitude would be useful too. Such might be nice, but I don't think they lend themselves to a simple start- and end-point calculation. Certainly, a rate averaged over the measurement period is most needed. I don't know how anyone else here feels about this, but I regard an averaged rate display as an essential feature.

2. For the beat error, Tg displays an absolute value in milliseconds. When adjusting for a zero value one can easily overshoot slightly, whereupon this absolute value is not very helpful, because one doesn't know which side of zero the watch is set. This might be in line with what other timing machines do, but I would find Tg more useful if it displayed a signed number instead. That would make adjustment easier, because one would know which way to adjust when close to the target.

I suppose such a change would be trivial code-wise.

3. I have a suggestion for atomic clock calibration that wouldn't involve NTP, and require no Tg mods at all: write a separate, command-driven program that users run once only, to compute Tg's calibration offset by referring to the computer's sound card and an atomic clock.

This program would prompt the user for just three inputs: how many hours they want the calibration period to last, a "Start" prompt and a "Stop" prompt. For example, the user might want to run this for twenty-four hours, so they would enter 24, then wait for their atomic clock reference to reach a convenient time, and press Enter (Start). Next day, slightly in advance, they would check the atomic clock, and at the right moment press Enter again (Stop). The program would use the reference time interval between these two inputs, combined with sound card timer readings, to compute and display Tg's signed calibration offset. Again, a very simple calculation.

This method would depend on the user's ability to press Enter at an exact moment in time. By choosing a sufficiently long calibration period, accuracy could be comparable to the stability of the sound card's time reference. It would eliminate the need for a quartz-mechanical watch for calibration, and the uncertainty of knowing whether it applied rate compensation. It would also eliminate the uncertainty of a user adding their own bias to compensate for the drift of their cheap quartz watch (should it be added or subtracted?).

This suggestion need not replace Tg's existing calibration procedure, but supplement it.

Alternatively, this function could be incorporated into Tg directly somehow, and I leave it to contrate_wheel to figure out something that wouldn't mess up its nice, clean interface.

Note: The code to implement this might need measures to prevent out-swapping during the measurement period, or have an extra input to trigger an in-swap shortly prior to the final input. That would make four inputs in total, but still very simple.

4. I removed Suggestion 4, as I hadn't thought it through properly. It depended on Tg's yet-to-be-implemented date-time display. All I will say is that a calibration-adjusted date-time display based on the sound card's timer would be very useful.

5. This one is just a minor niggle: Tg forgets what the current working directory is between multiple file saves and loads.

If you are saving a number of snapshots multiple levels deep in your folder structure, you have to re-browse to the required folder each time, starting at the top. This can get tedious. It would be nice if Tg had an internal variable to re-supply the current working directory as a default for each file save/load call. Browsing to a different folder and saving/loading should update this internal variable.

The same applies to the "Save All Snapshots" and "Open" options. Could these all pick up and use the current working directory?


----------



## DaveXS

I stumbled onto TG yesterday, what a great program! I have an old Vibrograph MU700, I'm using the multi-position watch holder with a little circuit between it and the sound card. It works great.

It appearss that if the sound card does anything other than listen to the watch the timing gets disrupted and is not stable. This may be different with different sound cards. It would not be difficult to make a one second 'tick' machine with an accurate and temperature controlled crystal oscillator that could serve as the time standard. It could go in on one channel, the watch on the other. An alternative to a dedicated ticker is a function generator. I don't know how difficult it would be to implement in the code to accommodate an external reference clock, but it seems that it has the potential to make TG very accurate.

Anyway, thanks for all the hard work!


----------



## wrest

For those not having quartz watch to calibrate the app, I would suggest you just buy $5 quartz watch, calibrate it in say 10-20 days interval (how-to: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/methods-determining-accuracy-watch-382752.html ), keeping them on shelf, and then calibrate the TG app with that watch.

Among quartz watches I've got, there's very cheap Q&Q watch, that I'm tracking for 6 month now (android watch track app WatchCheck) and it has gained less than 5 sec (making it +10 spy on-shelf)...


----------



## asegier

This is really awesome! I was looking for something on the app store (mainly looking at the timegrapher apps) and was trying to install Hairspring (which didn't work). Then I stumbled upon this! I'm at work now, so I haven't had the pleasure of trying it out (the only mic I have is a Bluetooth headphone mic, and it did not work, but I checked the System settings and it wasn't really sensing sound either when I tapped it, so it's the mic's fault).

This would be awesome if we could port it with React-Native and get it on IOS and Android!


----------



## Guido Velasquez

asegier said:


> This is really awesome! I was looking for something on the app store (mainly looking at the timegrapher apps) and was trying to install Hairspring (which didn't work). Then I stumbled upon this! I'm at work now, so I haven't had the pleasure of trying it out (the only mic I have is a Bluetooth headphone mic, and it did not work, but I checked the System settings and it wasn't really sensing sound either when I tapped it, so it's the mic's fault).
> 
> This would be awesome if we could port it with React-Native and get it on IOS and Android!


Good Idea. |>:-!


----------



## Reewoss

Hi guys,
Anyone know what happend with download links on project's page? I used this program some time ago to regulate my 7s26 and it's doing great gaining +3 seconds per day on avarage. Now I wanted to download and use it for my next project and all links disappeared.


----------



## 24h

Reewoss said:


> Hi guys,
> Anyone know what happend with download links on project's page? I used this program some time ago to regulate my 7s26 and it's doing great gaining +3 seconds per day on avarage. Now I wanted to download and use it for my next project and all links disappeared.


Works for me: https://github.com/vacaboja/tg/archive/master.zip


----------



## Reewoss

Yes but as far as i knot these are source files and i really don't know how to compile them.


----------



## 24h

deleted


----------



## Reewoss

It worked! Thank you for the help.


----------



## contrate_wheel

Reewoss said:


> Hi guys,
> Anyone know what happend with download links on project's page? I used this program some time ago to regulate my 7s26 and it's doing great gaining +3 seconds per day on avarage. Now I wanted to download and use it for my next project and all links disappeared.


Thanks a lot for letting me know: I accidentally deleted the files! Admittedly, I got a bit scared when I saw that all links were indeed missing. Fortunately, after reviewing my logs, it turned out that it was simply my fault for inadvertently deleting the wrong folder. Now they should back online...


----------



## taildragger

contrate_wheel said:


> Thanks a lot for letting me know...


@contrate_wheel

Thanks a lot to you for this extremely useful, well thought out and made software!
I have one question: I would like to reduce the threshold used to set the time mark in the main tick for calculating the amplitude. I use a normal microphone which works well due to your superb filtering. However, there is always some echo in the signal, and therefore the time mark is set always too late resulting in a false (small) amplitude calculation.
I found in "algo.c" a "compute_amplitude" proc with the line 
double threshold = fmax(.01 * glob_max, 1.4 * max);

Are these the factors setting the threshold amplitude relative to max? Can you please advise me on the correct factor to play with?
Thanks again


----------



## dh0licious

Guys I've just downloaded version 0.5.0 and am using this for the first time.

I need some help, wondering if there is a user guide anywhere? I can't seem to find things like amplitude.

Thanks!


----------



## eV1Te

I am confused about how to interpret these results in this particular case.

I captured this snapshot of an Omega Speedmaster cal. 863. It has not been serviced for 5 years, and it is fully wound.
The shape and location of the peaks do not move much when I change the position of the watch. It seems quite stable.

Rate: *-5 s/d* (-4 to -16 s/d depending on position)

Beat error:* 0.2 ms* (number looks good at first glance...)
*Should I trust this value? *
The top trace shows that the software missed the first peak, but it seems very low and there is more than 3 peaks in total?​
Amplitude: *288 deg* (number looks good at first glance...)
But the first peak was missed... *what is correct here?*​
(If I could wish one thing, it would be to add a slider/value for the trigger sensitivity for finding the first peak)


----------



## PetitLuc

I would trust beat error, because it is calculated from the loudest sound, wich is usually the the locking.
Regarding Amplitude, the peaks displayed are different from theory. This might be an effect of filtering, FFT calculations, or because real lif is different from theory.
Not sure the peak not detected is the first one from escapement


----------



## PetitLuc

I would trust beat error, because it is calculated from the loudest sound, wich is usually the the locking.
Regarding Amplitude, the peaks displayed are different from theory. This might be an effect of filtering, FFT calculations, or because real lif is different from theory.
Not sure the peak not detected is the first one from escapement


----------



## bullman

This looks great. Thanks for your hard work. I am in the process of obtaining the parts to build the amplifier and am having problems finding a switch. I would greatly appreciate it if someone would post a part number or a link to help me find a suitable part. I can't wait to get this project started.


----------



## bullman

Never mind, I posted to the wrong thread, sorry.


----------



## KOwatch

Whew just finished reading through all 44 pages of this TG thread as well as 30 pages on Watch O Scope on the WRT forums. The latter has some great discussion and plans for homebrew piezo preamplifiers as well as designs and ideas for timing microphone/watch holder setups. Good stuff. I think there's some good features with that program on long-interval graphs for watching rate, amplitude overnight or longer periods. 

I'm a big fan of Paul's blog Adjustingvintagewatches.com, I'd love to see TG with some features or tabs added that help keep track of timing results over 6 positions and the 8 vertical positions for dynamic poising, and also the positional difference and average statistics. Extra bonus if there's an option to keep track over multiple rounds of adjustment on the same movement. 

Good work Marcello and contributors, thanks for all your efforts and generosity!


----------



## KOwatch

Here's my quick first stab at a mic and preamp. Using a clip-on guitar pickup with the rubber over the piezo replaced with a hard plastic washer. Preamp based on a TL072 using Stefan Vorkoetter's preliminary preamp sketch for his watch-o-scope (WOS) project. He later refined his design quite a bit to use a TL074, but I had the most of the parts on hand for this one. I had bought the pickup previously and needed a few extra resistors, the rest consists of parts bin scores. Total cost so far about $8.

I'm using an old USB sound dongle for the input, my laptop doesn't have a dedicated mic in port. It does the job OK. I couldn't get a reliable signal previously, now I can get a good signal most of the time but TG still isn't able to find the beat sometimes. I'd still like to improve this setup with a watch holder and a case for the preamp (no Altoids tins left at the moment) with a switch, but doing it bare-bones like this is certainly possible.
















I've been comparing TG with WOS this afternoon. I much prefer using TG natively on Ubuntu Linux, but compared to WOS, TG seems very CPU intensive and my fan goes into high gear, even using the lite algorithm. 
I generally like the look of TG better, but I think it would be nice to have more flexibility in what is displayed on the screen. The waveform is useful for getting the system set up, but I don't really need to see the waveform once I'm adjusting the watch timing. It definitely looks impressive, but I'd rather see a larger beat window and a way to keep track of positional timing results. I think it might also be good to build in a list of lift angles of common movements, so when changing movements you have an option to select the lift angle from a dropdown of maker/movement numbers.

Really happy to have this rig now though, it's like getting a new set of ears. I'm like Jasmine on a magic carpet ride; I'm not sure if TG is Aladdin or the carpet but I'm singing "A whole new world" while correcting beat errors and it's very romantic.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Excellent the comparison with Aladdin.
Personally knowing these TG and WOS programs, I felt like being released from the Matrix.

I want to share an idea that is not mine but its efficiency is amazing. This is to remove the pre-amp. (I've already built many. Also bought some).

The idea is very simple and I illustrate it with the photograph that I place. is to use a transistor and a resistor. using an electric piezo disc as a sensor bolted to a caiman clamp. one end of the clip has a small piece of rubber in order to avoid scratching the watch.

A 1 mega ohm resistor is used. And a 2N 3904 transistor.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Here is a 15 second recording of the result with the microphone.
Anatomía de Reloj Suizo


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Guido Velasquez said:


> Here is a 15 second recording of the result with the microphone.
> Anatomía de Reloj Suizo


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Direct link to the audio file.

https://relojesdetorre.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/10134874/skeleton_black_15sx.wav


----------



## 24h

Guido Velasquez said:


> Direct link to the audio file.
> 
> https://relojesdetorre.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/10134874/skeleton_black_15sx.wav


Your site is still not loading. Maybe an issue on my side, but everything else loads 🤔
Edit: It's working now


----------



## [email protected]

Hi everyone. Recently I found this topic and was surprised to find tg-timer, a program running on Mac OS X. But no one wrote what OS X is suitable for it. Perhaps my experience and used parts will be useful for someone.
I installed tg-timer on OS X Catalina as described. Program works perfect.
A simple electret microphone and an inexpensive USB soundcard from Aliexpress are great for all tasks. In my kitchen, I found a plastic clamp that made a convenient and reliable micro holder. When I was calibrating, I noticed that my quartz watch made too quiet pulse. Bat I found a simple solution: I used a wall clock. The calibration showed that the soundcard time is fairly accurate: the nessasary correction was only +1 s/d!
Only one small critical point: it is impossible to set low bps values, such as 3600 or 7200. Or I didn't find a way to do it. Why do I need these values? To set up my wall and floor mechanical clocks.


----------



## 24h

[email protected] said:


> Hi everyone. Recently I found this topic and was surprised to find tg-timer, a program running on Mac OS X. But no one wrote what OS X is suitable for it. Perhaps my experience and used parts will be useful for someone.
> I installed tg-timer on OS X Catalina as described. Program works perfect.
> A simple electret microphone and an inexpensive USB soundcard from Aliexpress are great for all tasks. In my kitchen, I found a plastic clamp that made a convenient and reliable micro holder. When I was calibrating, I noticed that my quartz watch made too quiet pulse. Bat I found a simple solution: I used a wall clock. The calibration showed that the soundcard time is fairly accurate: the nessasary correction was only +1 s/d!
> Only one small critical point: it is impossible to set low bps values, such as 3600 or 7200. Or I didn't find a way to do it. Why do I need these values? To set up my wall and floor mechanical clocks.


You can try compiling from source with a modified tg.h file located in "tg-master\tg-master\src".
I haven't looked into the rest of the source to see if other edits are necessary, but it's worth a try.


----------



## PetitLuc

Hi Mark,
On your Mac, locate tg.file under Macintosh HD/Users/"YourName"/tg/src
Edit tg.h with Text editor, change line 60 to desired value, ie: #define MIN_BPH 3600
Open Terminal app, enter:
cd tg
make
This will build a modified version of tg-timer in Macintosh HD/Users/"YourName"/tg/
This worked for me, at least to add 15600 BPH for a fusee watch.
Luc

Thanks to ContrateWheel and other contributors for this usefull program!


----------



## miczoaj

Hi, im new here. I've followed all the steps required to run the app, but every time i type "tg-timer" i get replay "Illegal instruction: 4 " I don't know what that means and how to fix that... Do you have any ideas hot to get it running?


----------



## tomwatch2020

Hello
I am working with tg for a long time. I use a guitar-piezo-adapter to obtain the signal.

Unfortunately I have only 3 green dots- so I can not see the "Degrees"
Increasing the sensitivity (of the adapter) at the soundcard does not improve the situation.
Is there a possibility to "tell" tg ( maybe in the settings) to show the "deg" even if I have only 3 green dots?

Regards


----------



## c64rockford

[email protected] said:


> Only one small critical point: it is impossible to set low bps values, such as 3600 or 7200.





PetitLuc said:


> Hi Mark,
> On your Mac, locate tg.file under Macintosh HD/Users/"YourName"/tg/src
> Edit tg.h with Text editor, change line 60 to desired value, ie: #define MIN_BPH 3600
> Open Terminal app, enter:
> cd tg
> make
> This will build a modified version of tg-timer in Macintosh HD/Users/"YourName"/tg/
> This worked for me.
> Luc
> 
> Thanks to ContrateWheel and other contributors for this usefull program!


Hello Luc,
did you had luck to get tg synchonized with a wall clock?
I changed the MIN_BPH and also added some suggested values to the
array of standard BPH values, I got a signal from 2 watches with different movements, also calibration works with a quarz-wallclock.
But no luck when I try to put the mic at a mechanical wallclock. And it's loud enough, I can see the signal at soundcard-mixer. But maybe the soud ist to different from a watch.
It would be nice to use the calibration-detection for a wallclock recognition.

Its not necessary to detect angles and so on, only the ticks and tacks.


----------



## Pulsarpaul

Ty for this software. Does it automatically stop compiling data at 15 minute mark and then give the user a graph of all the stats averaged out ? I tried the software and it did not stop compiling after 15-20 minutes. ..it kept running and updating realtime info.

Also, has this free software been verified to be accurate compared to a regular $150 timegrapher 1000 machine ? Ty


----------



## ayampols

jisham said:


> if you can find some way to get an audible click out of the GPS for the PPS signal, just hold the mic up to it


I didn't have a quartz watch handy, but did have an Arduino Uno and some electronics bits hanging around from previous audio projects, so I thought I'd give this a try. I got pretty good results, so I'm sharing my approach for those who are interested in refining and contributing.

To @contrate_wheel's earlier point, non-HAQ watches run fast and have a regulating mechanism -- a stepping motor. Michael Lombardi, in his 2008 paper, "The Accuracy and Stability of Quartz Watches" tested 4 quartz watches and obtained a stepping motor accuracy of anywhere between 0.07 to 0.46 secs/day. The neo-6m datasheet says that the PPS accuracy is far greater. This was the inspiration to pursue the test.

I got a $10 u-blox neo-6m clone, and placed the antenna on a copper ground plate, which allowed me to get a fix from indoors. I used a piezo speaker, and set it to emit a 10 kHz tone for 10 ms whenever the interrupt was tripped. I used only the following connections:

Ground -> 100 Ω resistor -> piezo ground lead
Digital pin 10 -> piezo positive lead
Digital pin 13 -> GPS PPS lead
Ground -> GPS ground lead
VCC -> GPS VCC lead

I tried to minimize the amount of processing between the interrupt and the speaker in the (totally unscientific) assumption that less stuff means less variability in whatever amount of time is added by the circuitry: less between pin and speaker = more consistent pad = more reliable result. This may be total nonsense, but I used GreyGnome's EnableInterrupt library with the NEEDFORSPEED macro defined, as you can see.



C-like:


#define NEEDFORSPEED                            //use hi-speed mode
#define INTERRUPT_FLAG_PIN13 interrupt_flag     //a flag for the interrupt
#include <EnableInterrupt.h>                    //needed for the interrupt routine

const byte PIEZO_PIN = 10;      //digital pin for the piezoelectric speaker
const byte PPS_PIN = 13;        //digital pin for the PPS line

void setup() {
  pinMode(PPS_PIN, INPUT_PULLUP);
  enableInterruptFast(PPS_PIN, RISING);
}

void loop() {
  if (interrupt_flag) {
    tone(PIEZO_PIN, 10000, 10);
    interrupt_flag = 0;
  }
}

Eventually I got a cheap quartz watch to compare results. As you can see the adjustment for my ADC differs from the quartz result by only 0.1 secs/day. Still, this is significant for the short-term evaluation the tg-timer software is made for. Another interesting thing you can see is the stability of the PPS compared with the saw pattern for quartz (which in and of itself doesn't mean anything, as noted by the developer previously). Which is the more accurate? Not quite sure yet!

PPS-based calibration:









Quartz-based calibration:









Here's a video of the whole jury-rigged project


----------



## gajimicu

Posting here to thank OP for creating this program and making it available for free to everyone!
It indeed works great and I'm glad I had a quartz watch lying around to not have to go the same route as the previous post above 

Quick description of my setup:
For the microphone I am using a DIY piezo contraption presented on this forum here Simple and effective Homemade Microphone Stand for Watch...
I used a TRRS connector so I could plug the mic directly on the combined headphones/microphone input of my macbook pro. I get a very clear signal with very low noise floor.
The calibration using an old 80's Seiko Dolce quartz watch gave me a +0.01s a day. So I'm wondering if the mac integrated soundcard has a good quality quartz or if I just got lucky. Anyway it doesn't really matter as the calibration process compensates for whatever deviation.

One question is whether this application is actively updated or not since OP hasn't been on the forum for a year now and I didn't see any activity on Github either.
I think everyone here agrees that this is a great open source solution and it rivals with the commercial offerings around.
And with a couple additional features that were discussed on this thread it could be the best option out there.

Is there someone else keeping track of the development? Any candidate to take up on the updates?
I'm not a developper so I can't really help unless HTML and CSS skills are of any use, in which case I'd be happy to help!

Cheers to this active and resourceful community!
Hopefully we can get this piece of software a little push to become even better!

Happy with the current state by the way


----------



## tpiepho

Mr. Mamino merged a pull request I made into tg almost one year ago and I haven't heard from him since. Someone else sent a in PR to add an audio source selection dialog and configurable sampling rate around six months ago, there's been no responses to it other than from me.

I've added a feature for live play back of audio, after applying the filters, to aid in positioning and evaluating the microphone. It's been very helpful. It turns out touching the movement holder is much more important that being near the balance.

It's open source, so anyone can add features if they want. It's easy to clone on github and then it's available to anyone.


----------



## tpiepho

tomwatch2020 said:


> Unfortunately I have only 3 green dots- so I can not see the "Degrees"
> Increasing the sensitivity (of the adapter) at the soundcard does not improve the situation.
> Is there a possibility to "tell" tg ( maybe in the settings) to show the "deg" even if I have only 3 green dots?


No, but one could modify the code to do that.

However, the waveform display has marks for amplitude on it, so even if it doesn't tell you what it is, you can read it from the display. The blue line, marking the start of first noise where the impulse jewel hits the pallet fork, shows the amplitude on the scale on the top. Without the blue line, you'll just need to estimate yourself where the unlocking happens in relation to the drop.


----------



## 24h

tpiepho said:


> Mr. Mamino merged a pull request I made into tg almost one year ago and I haven't heard from him since. Someone else sent a in PR to add an audio source selection dialog and configurable sampling rate around six months ago, there's been no responses to it other than from me.
> 
> I've added a feature for live play back of audio, after applying the filters, to aid in positioning and evaluating the microphone. It's been very helpful. It turns out touching the movement holder is much more important that being near the balance.
> 
> It's open source, so anyone can add features if they want. It's easy to clone on github and then it's available to anyone.


Just compiled your source (from 18 days ago?) but I didn't have the time to test it out.
I'll try to find some time tomorrow!

Edit: Is this git (xyzzy42/tg) the correct one? I built it and there are no extra features like live playback.
I used git clone -b hpf-once https://github.com/xyzzy42/tg.git


----------



## r.c.hecker

Terminal says:

Plug in failed to register with daemon

Message response timed out

||PaMacCore (AUHAL)|| Error on line 667: err=''what'', msg=Unspecified Audio Hardware Error

||PaMacCore (AUHAL)|| Error on line 1277: err='-66748', msg=Unknown Error

Error opening audio input: Internal PortAudio error

Any Idea?


----------



## tpiepho

24h said:


> Just compiled your source (from 18 days ago?) but I didn't have the time to test it out.
> I'll try to find some time tomorrow!
> 
> Edit: Is this git (xyzzy42/tg) the correct one? I built it and there are no extra features like live playback.
> I used git clone -b hpf-once https://github.com/xyzzy42/tg.git


Yes, but that PR just has some speed improvements, you can see me description in the PR on github. I haven't put audio output out on github yet. I still want to make a better control loop to minimize the latency of the output audio.

There's another PR from someone else that has the audio source selection and sampling rate controls.


----------



## tpiepho

r.c.hecker said:


> ||PaMacCore (AUHAL)|| Error on line 667: err=''what'', msg=Unspecified Audio Hardware Error
> ||PaMacCore (AUHAL)|| Error on line 1277: err='-66748', msg=Unknown Error
> Error opening audio input: Internal PortAudio error
> 
> Any Idea?


You're on a Mac and I just do Linux, so I don't know. But I recognize that error, it the same one reported here, Error opening audio input Mac OS Big Sur 11.1 · Issue #22 · vacaboja/tg
That seems to have been a problem with needing to grant tg-timer access to the microphone.

It seems like lots of things have this problem with Macos Big Sur 11.1. Maybe it's a problem with PortAudio on Big Sur. Elsewhere it seems to be solved by using a version of PortAudio that has some fixes for newer macos versions, as in this problem report, MacOS BigSur: ||PaMacCore (AUHAL)|| Error on line 1316: err='-66748', msg=Unknown Error · Issue #299 · spatialaudio/python-sounddevice


----------



## 24h

tpiepho said:


> Yes, but that PR just has some speed improvements, you can see me description in the PR on github. I haven't put audio output out on github yet. I still want to make a better control loop to minimize the latency of the output audio.
> 
> There's another PR from someone else that has the audio source selection and sampling rate controls.


Thanks, I will also check that one out. I've had "listen to this device" enabled on Windows to hear what my recording device is picking up, but it would be convenient to listen with the tg filters if they are added "after the fact".

I am currently using a custom filter with the Equalizer APO software:


----------



## PetitLuc

c64rockford said:


> Hello Luc,
> did you had luck to get tg synchonized with a wall clock?
> I changed the MIN_BPH and also added some suggested values to the
> array of standard BPH values, I got a signal from 2 watches with different movements, also calibration works with a quarz-wallclock.
> But no luck when I try to put the mic at a mechanical wallclock. And it's loud enough, I can see the signal at soundcard-mixer. But maybe the soud ist to different from a watch.
> It would be nice to use the calibration-detection for a wallclock recognition.
> 
> Its not necessary to detect angles and so on, only the ticks and tacks.


Hello,
No, I could not. Seem's that bellow some BPH value it won't work. Just a supposition.
In the code, there is a lot of tests on signal, my guess is bellow 15600 it is rejected.
I tried with 9000 and 7200 BPH wall Clock to no avail.
Lower value I could use was 15600 BPH
I changed buffer's size with no luck as well.
PCTM_free could detect wall clock Tic Tocs


----------



## Aquaphobia

I used Tg 0.50 for the first time and am impressed with the obtained readings.

The challenge was finding a suitable microphone to use with Tg 0.50. I knew smartphones have quite sensitive microphones. I looked for some freeware to connect a smartphone to a Windows computer and found WO Mic at WO Mic - FREE microphone
My antivirus software refused to download the WO Mic client for Windows version 4.7, so I downloaded the 4.6 version at WO Mic

After installing and activating the WO Mic software on a simple Android phone and a Windows computer, I connected the phone and computer by USB cable to see if and how well Tg 0.50 worked. First, I placed a quartz watch on the microphone to calibrate the software and after seeing it acquired its ticking sound I left the room. Sometime later I returned and read Tg 0.50 had found the calibration value and automatically filled it in. I knew I had found a suitable microphone as the quartz watch I used for calibration ticks silently.

After filling in 53 in the lift angle field my phone obtained nice readings from a SII NH35A automatic movement resting on the microphone of the phone.








The timing of the balance wheel (of by 1.2 ms) can be improved, and the -7 seconds slow corresponds nicely with the loss observed over several days. The personal wearing habits of the owner (important information for non-chronometer budget 'work horse' movements like the NH35A) resulted in a rather consistent -8 to -9 seconds loss per day.

After filling in 55 in the lift angle field my phone obtained nice readings from a vintage Roamer MST 372 manual-wind movement in a 1961 Roamer Premier watch resting on the microphone of the phone.








The timing of the balance wheel is off resulting in a 4.0 ms beat error, but the movement keeps time very well. Besides on the DIY timegrapher it also keeps time very well when worn.


----------



## PetitLuc

tpiepho said:


> You're on a Mac and I just do Linux, so I don't know. But I recognize that error, it the same one reported here, Error opening audio input Mac OS Big Sur 11.1 · Issue #22 · vacaboja/tg
> That seems to have been a problem with needing to grant tg-timer access to the microphone.
> 
> It seems like lots of things have this problem with Macos Big Sur 11.1. Maybe it's a problem with PortAudio on Big Sur. Elsewhere it seems to be solved by using a version of PortAudio that has some fixes for newer macos versions, as in this problem report, MacOS BigSur: ||PaMacCore (AUHAL)|| Error on line 1316: err='-66748', msg=Unknown Error · Issue #299 · spatialaudio/python-sounddevice


Thanks. Having the same trouble, the solution provided in the link worked for me:
brew uninstall --ignore-dependencies portaudio​brew install portaudio --HEAD​


----------



## Guido Velasquez

PetitLuc said:


> Hello,
> No, I could not. Seem's that bellow some BPH value it won't work. Just a supposition.
> In the code, there is a lot of tests on signal, my guess is bellow 15600 it is rejected.
> I tried with 9000 and 7200 BPH wall Clock to no avail.
> Lower value I could use was 15600 BPH
> I changed buffer's size with no luck as well.
> PCTM_free could detect wall clock Tic Tocs


I am with the same goal. Be able to read beats less than 15600BPH. But despite having modified several things in the source code I am not successful. Although I have changed the MIN_BPH, and I have added values below those that the program brings by default. If any of the friends could help us with the source code to see where we could "open the door" to readings below 15600 BPH. Please and thank you very much.


----------



## tpiepho

At low BPH, the noise reduction logic might see the ticks as noise. That would be certainly be an issue below 7200 BPH. More than 7200 would be ok I think, as more than half of the 250 ms noise reduction windows would have a tick in them. But, you could try enabling "lite" mode, which disabled noise reduction.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Very well. Thank you very much. I will try. although I think I have already.
Personally, I think you have to modify something in the source code. I wrote to Marcello in his email, but I think he must be very busy.
I really appreciate the support, and I will be reporting the results.
Guido


----------



## tpiepho

I think I fixed the issue with low BPH not working. The fix is in PR #27.

I don't have such a movement to test. So what I did was capture the sound from a 18,000 bph movement and then slow it down using audacity. Then I created a virtual audio source which was fed from the recorded file and let tg use that. It worked until I slowed it down enough for 12,000 bph, which failed due the above bug. After fixing it, 12,000 bph works.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Thanks a lot. I'm very excited. Right now I'm going to do the test.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Thanks. I read the explanation as best I could. however, after making the adjustment and bringing MIN_BPH to 360, I cannot open the reading window below 14400 bph.
You can use this online tool that allows you to generate frequencies. This is how I am testing it.
Online Tone Generator - generate pure tones of any frequency


----------



## tpiepho

I would not be surprised if a square wave does not work. It does not have the expected properties of the ticks. I can get 12,000 to work.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Thank you very much for your help. You are right about the square wave. But the quadratic wave is read in all the other beats by encepha of 144001. It should be read in the lower ones. Any additional information you can provide, I will be very grateful.


----------



## tpiepho

I lowered MIN_BPH and was able to get it to work at 9000 bph. I do not know what you mean by "quadratic wave". To make a more realistic test track at an arbitrary bph, I used audacity to generate a rhythm track with 150 bpm (150*60 = 9000 bph), 2 beats/measure, and metronome ticks as the sound. This seems more realistic than a sawtooth or sine wave. The tick is much too short for an amplitude reading.

It does not work to auto-detected beat rate at 9000 bph, but if I enter that speed manually then it works. To auto-detect, the beat rate must be added to the list, and once done, auto detecting 9000 works too.

I suggest you try a test sound generated as I have described above.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

I'm sorry. English is not my mother tongue. the translator translated "quadratic" for me instead of "square wave".
Thank you very much for the help. I will try to generate a wave as you indicate.
I would appreciate if you could make the program work at 14400 bph, because my version cannot.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Could you post here a waveform like the one you describe, I don't have audacity in my programs. Thanks.


----------



## faded_lume

This software is brilliant and I'm finding it much better than watchoscope because the former unfortunately gives you the cannot detect warning when beat error is too high. Thanks for making this.


----------



## qyburn

Hi,
I'm trying this software on my home PC, with a variety of microphones. Best I've found so far is a USB tie clip mic, mounted in a block of wood so the watch sits nicely on it. I still get real messy looking traces, so not sure if that's the watch or my installation. See a couple of examples.





  








Dial Up Screenshot_7.png




__
qyburn


__
Mar 10, 2021












  








Dial Down Screenshot_7.png




__
qyburn


__
Mar 10, 2021


----------



## Guido Velasquez

It's basically what you should expect to see. It will depend on the build quality of the watch, in the first instance. What I have noticed is that "tg" is much more accurate than any mechanical watch can be. so we could put it this way: "an ultra-precise clock is required to generate regular traces."!
Here is a pattern generated by a 28800bph square wave tone generator.
It seems to me that you are doing well. What I can say is that a guitar pick-up works better. Contact. as a microphone.

28800 tone generator Hi Accuracy.









And real Watch Rolex 1935


----------



## qyburn

Cheers. I thought about a guitar pickup, but I think that needs a pre-amp to boost it to suit a PC sound input. Same with a raw peizo sensor. I guess the question is, do you think a better microphone would improve the actual results I'm getting?


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Los resultados numéricos no lo creo. Los resultados gráficos del emulador de tiras de papel de sucesión de puntos mejorarán muy poco. Por las fotografías que vi, está midiendo un reloj fabricado en China, que aunque es bastante bueno, no será como un reloj suizo.
En el preamplificador si es necesario. Yo uso una marca Pyle. 444. Solo lo modifiqué un poco, quitando algunos condensadores.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

I am sorry I must translate, English is not my mother tongue.
The numerical results do not think so. The graphical results of the dot succession paper strip emulator will improve very little. From the photographs I saw, he is measuring a watch made in China, which although it is quite good, it will not be like a Swiss watch.
On the preamplifier if necessary. I use a Pyle brand. 444. I only modified it a little bit, removing some capacitors.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Modifying PYLE PP444 Preamp


Modification Pyle preamplifier circuit To use in Timing Machine



reparacionderelojes.weebly.com


----------



## TomBombadil

Guido Velasquez said:


> Modifying PYLE PP444 Preamp
> 
> 
> Modification Pyle preamplifier circuit To use in Timing Machine
> 
> 
> 
> reparacionderelojes.weebly.com


I wonder if you may find this suitable ie an acoustic guitar pre-amp, I've used it for picking up tuning fork signals. A number of variants are available, this is just an example 4-Band EQ Equalizer Piezo Pickup Pre-Amp Acoustic Guitar Amplifier Tuner M2Y5 605757113234 | eBay They have an EQ that can help zoning in on the signal of interest. A wide range of low cost versions are available on all the usual outlets.

All the best - Tom


----------



## Guido Velasquez

TomBombadil said:


> I wonder if you may find this suitable ie an acoustic guitar pre-amp, I've used it for picking up tuning fork signals. A number of variants are available, this is just an example 4-Band EQ Equalizer Piezo Pickup Pre-Amp Acoustic Guitar Amplifier Tuner M2Y5 605757113234 | eBay They have an EQ that can help zoning in on the signal of interest. A wide range of low cost versions are available on all the usual outlets.
> 
> All the best - Tom


I think it can work. The equalizer would be a great help. What is difficult for me to understand is how to make the weak acoustic signal of the clock be captured by the device?


----------



## TomBombadil

Guido Velasquez said:


> I think it can work. The equalizer would be a great help. What is difficult for me to understand is how to make the weak acoustic signal of the clock be captured by the device?


Hi Guido - it has an input that can be wired with the piezo microphone 'strip' that it comes with - this could be just glued to the device that holds the watch or simply plug a microphone that you usually use into the same socket. Both may work okay. I mounted this into a plastic box and added an input for a dc supply to replace the battery (as I'm doing tests that last weeks and months!). This video shows it in use during a test 



 . Piezo transducers are very low power so the amplifier has a significant gain. It's fairly cheap so maybe worth a play with to see if it works for you.

All the best - Tom


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Thanks for the ideas. Congratulations on your electronic tuning fork projects. I have seen the videos.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

With the help of @tpiepho @24h and others, I have made a compilation that allows evaluating clocks with a beat equal to or greater than 7560 BPH. Other settings also allow the Lift Angle value to be lowered to 0 (zero), which is unnecessary for pendulum clocks. The download link is here. Suggestions would be appreciated.
https://reparacionderelojes.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/2/1/12213567/tg-timer.exe


----------



## 24h

Guido Velasquez said:


> With the help of @tpiepho @24h and others, I have made a compilation that allows evaluating clocks with a beat equal to or greater than 7560 BPH. Other settings also allow the Lift Angle value to be lowered to 0 (zero), which is unnecessary for pendulum clocks. The download link is here. Suggestions would be appreciated.
> https://reparacionderelojes.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/2/1/12213567/tg-timer.exe
> View attachment 15762400


Can you add the source code for the files you modified?


----------



## Guido Velasquez

24h said:


> add the source


The only way I could think of sharing it was this way.
There you will find the 2 source code files that you need to modify: algo.c and tg.h

Descargas Relojería


----------



## tpiepho

Guido Velasquez said:


> Here is a pattern generated by a 28800bph square wave tone generator.


Using sound generated by the same computer audio device running tg is a meaningless comparison. Any error in the audio rate for recording will be matched by an equal error in playback. It will always appear as perfect, even if it is not.

@qyburn, your first picture looks like the signal is too quiet, and so the gain is up very high, which shows the noise between the ticks. Ideally it should be a straight line with no noise between each pixel.

I am using the Google USB-C earbuds that came with my phone, but plugged into my computer. It works best with the control pod, which contains the microphone, resting on the movement or movement holder in some way, rather than just being near the movement.

Example from Bulova 5AR movement in holder.









Seiko 5626 in case with bracelet and watch sitting on top of microphone:


----------



## qyburn

tpiepho said:


> @qyburn, your first picture looks like the signal is too quiet, and so the gain is up very high, which shows the noise between the ticks. Ideally it should be a straight line with no noise between each pixel.


Thanks. I think that's correct, the signal is very low. I notice for example that tapping the desk causes a blip in the trace, even though the watch/microphone is on the window sill and the PC is on the floor. I'm going to look at making a peizo pickup and pre amp of some sort for next time.

However at the moment what I'm getting is good enough. The watch is a cheap Chinese one and with a bit of fiddling it's giving me +2 seconds per day. TG shows that the rates are all over the place between different positions, all running fast except Crown Right which runs slow.


----------



## tpiepho

Updated TG with new features available for those who can build it.

contrate_wheel hasn't responded to activity on github for almost a year, so I've put together a version with all my work that's finished.

It's available as source on github, and if one is using Fedora there are binary packages on COPR. Building from source is quite trivial on Linux and MacOS and there are instructions in the README.

New features:

BPH values down to 8100 will work.
Significant performance improvement. Should be over twice as fast now.
Alternate layout with horizontal paperstrip can be toggled, allowing for a larger paperstrip with a greater length of displayed time.
Free zoom on the paperstrip beat scale. Instead of being fixed at a tenth of a beat, it can freely zoom from one beat to one hundredth of a beat.
Division between paperstrip and waveforms can be dragged to make one or the other larger.
Audio device setup dialog that allows choosing input device and audio sample rate.
High-pass filter cutoff frequency can be adjusted.
A few bug fixes and internal improvements.
Some screen shots.

Paperstrip made wider, notice zoom changed to 8.2 ms instead of 20 ms.









Horizontal layout.









Audio setup dialog:


----------



## tpiepho

I have also made an experimental branch where I added a Python interpreter into tg, so that Python scripts can be run inside and, access audio and timing date, and generate graphics.

As an initial use of these features, I added a simple graph of the high pass audio filter's effect. And the ability to get time and frequency reassigned spectrograms of the audio data.

The graph here will update as the slider is moved to adjust the HPF. I was curious how the group delay of the filter would affect timing.









The spectrogram of the last single beat detected. The white line shows the point tg detects as the beat (0 on waveform displays) and the blue where it's measuring amplitude from.









A spectrogram of the last second of audio. Detected beats are marked. The two clicks at the end are the mouse button press and release from clicking to make the graph.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

tpiepho said:


> version with all my work that's finished.


Great @tpiepho Brilliant work. I will try to compile for testing as soon as I can and will be posting comments here. Thank you.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

tpiepho said:


> Updated TG


Great, I've compiled the source code, and I'm already doing tests. Excellent work @tpiepho . However when trying to use one of the new functions, at least on my desktop computer, this error occurred.


----------



## tpiepho

Guido Velasquez said:


> However when trying to use one of the new functions, at least on my desktop computer, this error occurred.


I do not even need to translate that from Spanish to know what it says, "problem." But nothing more than that, it is as useless as, "my watch doesn't work." Linux and MacOS can automatically make crash dumps with backtraces with real information. I do not know how to do that on Windows. I suggest reporting an issue on my github and maybe a more technical Windows user will be able to investigate.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

tpiepho said:


> reporting an issue


Thanks. I will try to post on Github. Thank you very much for version of the program. We will continue testing it.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Very grateful to the available version. I am a Windows user, and it presents this problem that is quite obvious and yet so far I could see it. The inclination of the dotted line is in the opposite direction. Could you help with the solution of the problem? Thanks.


----------



## LCheapo

Guido Velasquez said:


> View attachment 15871543
> 
> Very grateful to the available version. I am a Windows user, and it presents this problem that is quite obvious and yet so far I could see it. The inclination of the dotted line is in the opposite direction. Could you help with the solution of the problem? Thanks.


In your previous post the rate was +10 s/day, and the lines sloped downwards, in your most recent post the rate is -11s/day, and the slope goes the other direction. Seems correct to me.


----------



## tpiepho

I changed the direction the line slopes. It seem more natural to me that time should progress from left to right, so if the watch runs slow, the beats arrive later than they should, and so they move to the right.

I also checked what a Witschi machine did and it slopes the same way.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Effectively, that's right. The numerical value is correct, but the graphical representation of the dotted line is inverted.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

tpiepho said:


> I changed the direction


I think it is due to habit. Most timing machines that present the "paper strip" horizontally, if the line goes up, it represents lead. and if it goes down, delay. However, if the presentation is vertical, the classic models if the line rotates clockwise it is an advance and if it rotates counterclockwise it is retarded.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Hi friends,
Greetings. I share this screenshot here. I wish you are well, coping with this pandemic that has already taken a long time for us, and we do not know when it will end.
It corresponds to my recent job. Rolex Oyster Cal 1225 watch repair. Ref. 6426.
Thanking the creator of the "tg" program for the valuable tool that he has shared with us.








The results of the repair can be seen in the graph provided by tg








The watch's winding was broken. And got a new (NOS) New old stock. The part had probably been there for 40 years.


----------



## DaveInTexas

Anyone know why I am not seeing the Amplitude? This is on an NH35 movement. My wife's TAG Calibre 5 showed amplitude with no problem.
Also what does the circled Red or Green check mark indicate?
And the green dots meaning?
The SPD is bouncing all over the place. Is it closer to the correct reading when there are more green dots?


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Let's give some explanations:
1.- probably the solid steel case of your Seiko silences the sound and the signal is very bad. The problem has difficulty finding the signal properly to discern the amplitude. Which is more critical than rate measurement. Conclusion the signal or sound is very weak.

About what it indicates on the left side, above. A figure of a clock appears in red marking 7:20 it is a sad face.  It indicates a bad signal, and almost impossible to read.
The figure of the clock showing 10:10 is a happy face  and indicates a more acceptable signal. And the series of four points "squares to the right of the face, is the quality of the signal, and therefore the security of the reading. When it has 4 points it indicates an optimal signal. But I have a question. I don't know what you mean by SPD, forgive my ignorance.


----------



## DaveInTexas

Guido Velasquez said:


> Let's give some explanations:
> 1.- probably the solid steel case of your Seiko silences the sound and the signal is very bad. The problem has difficulty finding the signal properly to discern the amplitude. Which is more critical than rate measurement. Conclusion the signal or sound is very weak.
> 
> About what it indicates on the left side, above. A figure of a clock appears in red marking 7:20 it is a sad face.  It indicates a bad signal, and almost impossible to read.
> The figure of the clock showing 10:10 is a happy face  and indicates a more acceptable signal. And the series of four points "squares to the right of the face, is the quality of the signal, and therefore the security of the reading. When it has 4 points it indicates an optimal signal. But I have a question. I don't know what you mean by SPD, forgive my ignorance.


Thank you for the explanation. SPD sorry I mean s/d.
I think a better microphone would improve the signal. Just using an iphone mic. Do you have another recommendation for a cheap alternative microphone?


----------



## PetitLuc

woodlands747 said:


> Thank you for the explanation. SPD sorry I mean s/d.
> I think a better microphone would improve the signal. Just using an iphone mic. Do you have another recommendation for a cheap alternative microphone?


I could get good results with Iphone Mic, it is not only about Mic, but also:
-pickup of sound:
-Mic close to watch, even stuck to the case with tape​-Case opened or not​-Thin case or thick case​-Parameters of amplifier
-on some computers You may adjust the gain​-Noise cancellation on or off may improve the signal​-External noise: You have to reduce it, at least put some foam underneath the watch in order to insulate from bench, windows closed, so on
-Electric Noise: the Mic cable may pickup electromagnetic noise from environment, put electric appliances away from Mic cable, such as lamps, transformers, etc...

Others used a guitar pickup, piezo disc with amplifier, some are cheap


----------



## DaveInTexas

PetitLuc said:


> I could get good results with Iphone Mic, it is not only about Mic, but also:
> -pickup of sound:
> -Mic close to watch, even stuck to the case with tape​-Case opened or not​-Thin case or thick case​-Parameters of amplifier
> -on some computers You may adjust the gain​-Noise cancellation on or off may improve the signal​-External noise: You have to reduce it, at least put some foam underneath the watch in order to insulate from bench, windows closed, so on
> -Electric Noise: the Mic cable may pickup electromagnetic noise from environment, put electric appliances away from Mic cable, such as lamps, transformers, etc...
> 
> Others used a guitar pickup, piezo disc with amplifier, some are cheap


Okay I've got it. Taped the mic to the back and covered with microfiber towels and got an excellent signal. Thank you.








I am seeing a wide range of readings and not quite sure how to interpret. Note the wide range of beat error and amplitude.


----------



## PetitLuc

woodlands747 said:


> Okay I've got it. Taped the mic to the back and covered with microfiber towels and got an excellent signal. Thank you.
> 
> I am seeing a wide range of readings and not quite sure how to interpret. Note the wide range of beat error and amplitude.


It is still a bit noisy, but very good given the conditions.
I would keep the 2 first reading that have close numbers and reject the third one.
Detection of unlock sound is displayed by the blue vertical line on Tic and Toc graphs, in the third screen shot, it seems that noise was detected as third sound, giving the blue line at -13 ms. This gave lower amplitude.
You'll find usefull guidelines in Witschi manual, google for it


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Help to TG Timegrapher


Ayuda del software de código abierto TG Relojería Relojes mecánicos



reparacionderelojes.weebly.com


----------



## Guido Velasquez

I see good results. much better than the first thanks to @PetitLuc suggestion.
In my opinion you do need a more efficient microphone stage and a preamp stage to get better results. As stated, everything has a price. Or as another saying goes, "if you want something you've never had you will have to do something you've never done.
1.- The microphone can be replaced by an electric guitar clip. The microphone can be replaced by an electric guitar clip. *Just remove the rubber insulation on the caliper.*
2.- The preamplifier one of 20 dollars. as is, if you wish. Or if you want something better, make some modifications.









Modifying PYLE PP444 Preamp


Modification Pyle preamplifier circuit To use in Timing Machine



reparacionderelojes.weebly.com


----------



## DaveInTexas

I put the watch between 2 pillows and this is one example of the results


----------



## Guido Velasquez

The graph shows that the program is practically working miracles to get the signal. In other words, the capture on the microphone is very low. i got the idea to use uhu tac. Make a "donut", and stick it to the watch and right to the hole of the microphone. That would isolate the noise.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Good news everyone. A dedicated plug and play microphone for use with tg timegrapher.









10.29US $ |Instrumento de calibración de ordenador TGB, reloj mecánico de bolsillo, tiempo de calibración 1000, prueba de reparación de reloj, máquina de alambre|Contactores| - AliExpress


¡Compra fácil, vive mejor! Aliexpress.com




es.aliexpress.com


----------



## tpiepho

woodlands747 said:


> I put the watch between 2 pillows and this is one example of the results
> View attachment 16045685


This is not very good audio. TG will apply automatic gain to the signal, so you will not see the pulses get smaller or larger even if they are louder or quieter. But this gain makes everything louder, not just the beats but also the noise. So look at the signal line between the two beats and see the many small pulses, this is background noise which has been amplified and is not that much smaller than the actual beats. Ideally you should have a flat line between beats. But the problem is not that you have too much noise, but that your signal is too weak.

Try setting up a monitor that lets you listen to the microphone with some decent headphones. One can tell easily what manner of attaching the microphone is better for picking up the sound. I have found with earbud phone microphone that:

It is good to have the microphone touch the movement, not just be near it.
Which side and what location of microphone pod touches the movement makes a significant difference.
Holding the microphone rigidly is not good. Just resting against movement is better.


----------



## tpiepho

woodlands747 said:


> Also what does the circled Red or Green check mark indicate?
> And the green dots meaning?


Happy green watch vs frowning red watch indicate if a beat has been synced too. The green dots relate vaguely to signal quality, but really I think that is fake, meant to placate those who do not understand what a timegrapher does or how it does it, with a simple "you have four dots!" picture.

The reality is that the dots are the averaging interval. Tg will attempt to find a consistent beat signal throughout the last 2, 4, 8, and 16 seconds. This is the 1-4 dots. For example, if there are consistent beat sounds detected for the last 8 seconds, but when looking at the last 16 seconds there is now a gap included with no recognizable beat, you would get 3 dots. And your s/d and amplitude measurement would reflect the average of the beats from the last 8 seconds. If not even 2 seconds worth is detected, then you get the red watch and no dots. But also, if amplitude can not be detected, then a 16 second interval will get 3 dots instead of 4.

I changed that last bit in a newer version so that number of dots always displays averaging interval. The last dot will be hollow if the signal is not good enough to measure amplitude, because the distinct pulses of unlock - impulse - lock can not be detected.


----------



## EricStarford

Hello. I just want to say that this software has been amazing. I'm using it with an existing lapel mic (great sensitivity and cheap), a small ceramic bowl to amplify sound plus towels for isolation. I'm getting very clean readings. Was able to regulate this PoS 14 year old chinese rando automatic movement. Tweaked the original accuracy from +36s/d down a bit. Messed up the beat error on my first try, but was able to reel that back to 0.1ms. Btw, any one recognize the movement?

Finally, how do I donate to the dev(s)?

.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Excellent, thanks for sharing the information. The microphone seems very efficient. And judging by the results it does its job well. I imagine that the bowl is like a soundproofing chamber.
With all due respect, I can say that the best way to obtain good results is with a contact microphone. that is, a vibration sensor.
Good job.


----------



## ddd777

Hello, after updating my mac on monterey, unfortunately the timegrapher is showing just a black window. Have already uninstalled tg and brew and installed new, but with the same effect. Any troubleshoot here? Would be great, because i am loving this Tool


----------



## tpiepho

ddd777 said:


> Hello, after updating my mac on monterey, unfortunately the timegrapher is showing just a black window. Have already uninstalled tg and brew and installed new, but with the same effect. Any troubleshoot here? Would be great, because i am loving this Tool


Have you tried building from source? brew can install all the dependencies and then the instructions in the README, just a few commands, will work. I'm not an expert with brew on macs, but I think the brew install of tg will install binaries, and those might be out of date on Monterey.

Also try the solutions from post #461 and #465, it could be one of those audio permission things with macos updates. And maybe check that there isn't a dialog somewhere you didn't notice asking for microphone permission when you start the app that is still waiting for a response.


----------



## ddd777

hi tpiepho, thanks for your support! 
i have tried 
brew uninstall --ignore-dependencies portaudio
brew install portaudio --HEAD

but same result: the tg window is just black

brew was installed with the github instructions and tg as well

i have uninstalled and deleted all related data again and installed new. Ta da everything is good now!  Thank you for your effort and this great work


----------



## Ian_toko

Hello everybody! 
Thank You to all of You for this great program and your support as well!
I installed tg on my MacBook Air with brew.
Brew installed all the dependencies and tg works fine.
But I only get the 0.5 version.
Is there a way to update tpiepho's 0.6 edition?

Thank You in advance! 

Edit:
I forced manual install of tg from tpiepho's repo with SHA change, and now I have 0.6! 
Thanks again for this super application!


----------



## fearlessleader

Guido Velasquez said:


> Good news everyone. A dedicated plug and play microphone for use with tg timegrapher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10.29US $ |Instrumento de calibración de ordenador TGB, reloj mecánico de bolsillo, tiempo de calibración 1000, prueba de reparación de reloj, máquina de alambre|Contactores| - AliExpress
> 
> 
> ¡Compra fácil, vive mejor! Aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> es.aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16161626


Based on someone else's recommendation for the same unit (but at a higher price), after two tries I finally got this unit. No instructions, so... some questions:
(1) Is the micro USB just to charge it's internal battery? Or for something else?
(2) There's one "mic jack" on the unit (and two cables came with it)... Is this the output that I'd then plug into whatever my audio-input is?
(3) Is the switch just above the "mic jack" just on/off for the internal battery to enable it's internal microphone?
(4) There are two LEDs -- what's the meaning of each please? Sliding switch made the red led on, then the blue one started blinking... Sliding switch off, turned the red led off (so it must just be power indicator), but the blue kept blinking for a minute (guessing it's just indicating some audio going "out"??) and then finally turned off.
(5) My unit came with a USB-to-two-Jacks --- Is this just to make it easier to connect this TGBC box to my audio input if it's just a USB? I'm also checking the two different cables that came with the unit... 
(6) Any experience with holding the box on any side to "move" the watch to different positions? Do "all" positions seem to work the same?

Hoping that my lightning-to-external-mic-jack will work so I can use this TGBC box with iOS timing software.

Thanks!


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Hello,
I will try to answer the essential.

In principle the box must produce an analog electronic signal to drive the computer and use the tg Watch-O-Scope. It may have a battery inside. The first instance would be to place a loud-sounding clock. Connect a cable that is in the box and that corresponds to the microphone input of the computer. Make the settings on the computer to activate the microphone. and start the tg or WOS application. If you could share pictures of the device they might be helpful.


----------



## tpiepho

fearlessleader said:


> Based on someone else's recommendation for the same unit (but at a higher price), after two tries I finally got this unit. No instructions, so... some questions:


I got the version with the stand and the 9V battery, but it appears the electronics are basically the same common boards in both, so I think I can guess what the other version does. They have a new version, called type 5 or 3rd generation, which has only USB connection and no battery, which is different. But I think you have the type 2 or 2nd generation.

The USB cable is solely to charge the battery.
The microphone jack is for connecting it to an audio input. Use a 4-pin TRRS plug in the device. A 3-pin will short it! Connect the cable with the other end having 3-pins to something with a line-in or mic-in, while use the 4-pin plug cable when connecting so something that connects to a headset with headphones and a mic, e.g. a phone.
The switch powers controls the amplifier board, based on an LM386 chip, available for < $1 on the usual places.
The red led is on the amplifier board.
The blue led is on the li-ion battery charger and voltage regulator board. It is a sort of gas gauge and charge status indicator. Even the datasheet for the control IC, probably ETA9640, doesn't say how it works exactly. _"The LED is to indicate the battery voltage level, which serves as an 4-level battery gas gauge." _That is all they say. I think more flashes means more charged? And it will go solid when it is finished charging.

I don't know what the purpose of a 3 head USB cable would be? Usually this kind of USB cable are only for charging and might not even have wires for the data pins. They have different connectors, so you can charge from/to e.g. USB-A and micro-USB with one cable by picking the two connectors of the three that you need.


----------



## Cold Wind

fearlessleader said:


> Based on someone else's recommendation for the same unit (but at a higher price), after two tries I finally got this unit. No instructions, so... some questions:
> (1) Is the micro USB just to charge it's internal battery? Or for something else?
> (2) There's one "mic jack" on the unit (and two cables came with it)... Is this the output that I'd then plug into whatever my audio-input is?
> (3) Is the switch just above the "mic jack" just on/off for the internal battery to enable it's internal microphone?
> (4) There are two LEDs -- what's the meaning of each please? Sliding switch made the red led on, then the blue one started blinking... Sliding switch off, turned the red led off (so it must just be power indicator), but the blue kept blinking for a minute (guessing it's just indicating some audio going "out"??) and then finally turned off.
> (5) My unit came with a USB-to-two-Jacks --- Is this just to make it easier to connect this TGBC box to my audio input if it's just a USB? I'm also checking the two different cables that came with the unit...
> (6) Any experience with holding the box on any side to "move" the watch to different positions? Do "all" positions seem to work the same?
> 
> Hoping that my lightning-to-external-mic-jack will work so I can use this TGBC box with iOS timing software.
> 
> Thanks!


I have purchased the unit and used it since then with great success so I can pretty much answer all of your questions.
(1) The micro USB port just to charge it's internal battery, use it with a cable connect to a 5V adapter.
(2) Yes. You can connect the unit to PC or even smartphone. That's why it came with 2 cables, one for PC and one for smartphone.
(3) Yes.
(4) The red led shows that the unit is on or off. The blue led works as battery indicator, 4 blinks just means 100% battery, 3, 2, 1 blinks means 75%, 50%, 25% battery, correspondingly. And when you charge the unit, the blue led will blink until it stays on which means it's fully charged.
(5) The USB adapter is actually for listening to the sound of the watch which is captured by the microphone of the unit. Plug it to your PC, plug audio input cable to the red port on the USB then plug a headphone jack to the green port. You should be able to listen to the watch, it's quite loud and clear  I tested it first when I got the unit but didn't use this feature since then because it's just unecessary.
(6) Yes you should be albe to test the watch in different positions by positioning the unit. I always test a watch in 4 positions, dial up-down, crown up-down.
I only use android phone so don't know about iOS devices but it works fine on any android phones of mine via 3.5mm audio port.


----------



## fearlessleader

Cold Wind said:


> I have purchased the unit and used it since then with great success so I can pretty much answer all of your questions.
> ...


Thank you... WOW, all the answers!!!

For several tests, it didn't work for me. Finally I tried a different audio-to-lightning adapter and voila -- it works! It was a bad "adapter". Sheesh! So few devices left with a mic jack.

Not sure if the readings are good or not, though... The numbers seem fine, but the two parallel "lines" of recorded ticks is always "moving" slightly diagonally up to the right as opposed to being just straight across. Not what I'd expect and I don't know what that means.


----------



## Cold Wind

fearlessleader said:


> Thank you... WOW, all the answers!!!
> 
> For several tests, it didn't work for me. Finally I tried a different audio-to-lightning adapter and voila -- it works! It was a bad "adapter". Sheesh! So few devices left with a mic jack.
> 
> Not sure if the readings are good or not, though... The numbers seem fine, but the two parallel "lines" of recorded ticks is always "moving" slightly diagonally up to the right as opposed to being just straight across. Not what I'd expect and I don't know what that means.


If you see two clean parallel lines it means the unit is working fine. To tell from the graph and numbers how your watch performs you need to know how to use a timegrapher. You can search for guides on youtube or timegrapher manual on google.


----------



## fearlessleader

Cold Wind said:


> If you see two clean parallel lines it means the unit is working fine. To tell from the graph and numbers how your watch performs you need to know how to use a timegrapher. You can search for guides on youtube or timegrapher manual on google.


I've read through and watched a few guides... I got it that if the two lines are mostly "clean and parallel" that that's good, but didn't see what it means if those lines are (still parallel) continuously on a diagonal up slope.

I'd like to see what Witschi has on their website, but you need to have device name, type number, and serial number of one of their devices to get access to their "how to use a timegrapher"... but I don't have their box, as I'm using the iOS software timegrapher app.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

https://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Witschi%20Training%20Course.pdf


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Help to TG Timegrapher


Ayuda del software de código abierto TG Relojería Relojes mecánicos



reparacionderelojes.weebly.com


----------



## fearlessleader

Guido Velasquez said:


> https://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Witschi%20Training%20Course.pdf


Wow, thank you! Now that IS a course!
And for the other link -- thank you too, I hope that G translate is usable when I read through it.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

G translate work fine.


----------



## fearlessleader

Guido Velasquez said:


> G translate work fine.


I know it works, but I also know the some of it's translation results are... "interesting"


----------



## glitchy

First off, *contrate_wheel *and now *tpiepho* and Guido and fearlessleader and everyone else contributing here and keeping this going, thank you, this is awesome!

Second, for anyone else on a mac who's using macports instead of homebrew: the tpiepho fork of 0.6.0 was a fairly painless build--most of the dependencies are obvious (gtk3 and portaudio), but to pick up fftw3f one needs to install "fftw-3-single". (Single-precision, also known as 'f' for "float".) I'm still lacking some icons, but I suspect that's an easy fix and it's fully functional regardless.

Last of all, on calibration, when I started it up calibrating and was about to go find a watch I realized it was already starting to collect data! The tick of the cheap and noisy (but very good at timekeeping) quartz wall clock a few feet away was enough for it. (Built-in mic, 2015 Macbook Pro.) It came up with +3.5 s/d, good to have the correction but not I think terribly off for a general-purpose computer.


----------



## tpiepho

glitchy said:


> I'm still lacking some icons,


Try installing "adwaita-icon-theme" with brew or port. I'm not really a mac dev and don't know the details here. In tg, I just use standard gtk icon names. So they should be provided by the gtk theme, rather than anything tg needs to do to provide them. The theme, with style sheets and icons and other assets, is distinct and separable from the gtk libraries, so it is possible to build and run gtk software without a theme or an icon set installed.

Have you tried the python branch? I was able to build it with brew installed python dependencies easily enough. This enables the filter graphs and the nifty spectrograms. However, pip didn't want to install the libtfr python package on the mac for me.


----------



## glitchy

tpiepho said:


> Try installing "adwaita-icon-theme" with brew or port.


Aha, thanks! All good now.



> Have you tried the python branch? I was able to build it with brew installed python dependencies easily enough. This enables the filter graphs and the nifty spectrograms. However, pip didn't want to install the libtfr python package on the mac for me.


I have! Super-fancy, I love it! (OK so I've used it for all of a minute or two so far but I always appreciate nice presentations of data.) I ran into two glitches with building it via macports:

configure needed an explicit include path set for numpy (same as in the brew instructions, pity I didn't read that far first)
libtfr uses some features that were removed in python 3.9 (which was my system default), but it was a clean install ("pip install libtfr") once I switched to 3.8.
Thank you again!


----------



## boga

Hello:

I have read the whole thread, and I am looking forward to starting testing this TG software. Many thanks to contrate_wheel, as the creator of this program, and to all those who have subsequently helped in its development. 

My first doubt is about buying the microphone.

It looks that these clip-on microphones work pretty well, even without pre-amp (although I didn't understand yet if the mono/stereo correction has something to add to the results).










*https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4001083333090.html*

I'd need to use a 6,35mm female/3,5mm male adaptor.


The issue comes when connecting with my laptop.

My 3,5 mm laptop connector doesn't work. I need to connect audio through USB. So, I would connect the 3,5mm connector to this external sound card (that I already own).










Is this correct?

Can I do anything better than that? (I haven't seen any pickup microphone with a USB connection).


-My second question is about which version of TG to download. The last one "officially" prepared by contrate_wheel was 5.0. Subsequently, tpiepho has released version 6.0, with some improvements. But I don't know if this version is tested for bugs. And if it can be considered official.

In short: I don't know which version to install, 5.0 or 6.0.

I hope your answers can solve my doubts.

Again, thank you all very much.


----------



## glitchy

boga said:


> Is this correct?
> 
> Can I do anything better than that? (I haven't seen any pickup microphone with a USB connection).


If that external sound device has a microphone input it looks fine to me. (I've seen a few setups that have a native USB interface but they were in the hundreds of USD and aimed at professionals.) There's no major sophistication in technology required, this mostly needs 1) to have some kind of microphone well-coupled to the movement, and 2) a preamp to get it up to line level for feeding to a computer, although not all hardware requires this.

BTW, I ended up purchasing the box from the aliexpress vendor linked to above, and I'm quite satisfied with it. It's a bit rough around the edges and possibly not terribly physically durable, but for how it performs and its price point I am wholly satisfied.


> -My second question is about which version of TG to download. The last one "officially" prepared by contrate_wheel was 5.0. Subsequently, tpiepho has released version 6.0, with some improvements. But I don't know if this version is tested for bugs. And if it can be considered official.


I am enjoying the spectrum visualization detail provided by the newer release, but either one seems quite functional for basic use. Neither has a warranty or a monetary price. If you're only going for one I suppose the bugfixes in the newer release would be a plus.


----------



## lednicazar

Hi! Finally I decided yo try the timegrapher and make me one with the simple circuit of Guido.

Some doubts that maybe you can help me.
- I tried to compile the 0.6 version, but I wasn't able to make the msi file, any hints about how to do it??

- About the amplifier with the piezo + the simple circuit of Guido, I was able to get good results but: is it better to try to find a preamp like Pyle pp444? Any similar in AliExpress?

Thanks!


----------



## Guido Velasquez

lednicazar said:


> Hi! Finally I decided yo try the timegrapher and make me one with the simple circuit of Guido.
> 
> Some doubts that maybe you can help me.
> - I tried to compile the 0.6 version, but I wasn't able to make the msi file, any hints about how to do it??
> 
> - About the amplifier with the piezo + the simple circuit of Guido, I was able to get good results but: is it better to try to find a preamp like Pyle pp444? Any similar in AliExpress?
> 
> Thanks!


Hello @lednicazar, welcome. About the compilation of the program, I think someone with more knowledge than mine will contribute something.
About the preamp alternative, I'll look something up. But if you can detail what you've done, I think we can help.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Preamp Aliexpres


----------



## lednicazar

Hello Guido, first of all thanks for the answer and sorry to not being able to answer before...(crazy work weeks outside home ....)
This weekend I had some more time to play, I get good results but something rare is happening because I only get results when I touch with the finger the watch..... Maybe some issue with the grounding... But I'm not finding the issue...

Till now I'm using the bc549 + 12mm piezo and some resistors between 1MOhm and 330k... I'm trying to find the best results.
And to get the sound instead of using the pc soundcard Im using an usb sound adaptor


----------



## Guido Velasquez

lednicazar said:


> only get results when I touch with the finger the watch.....
> 
> Hello @lednicazar, we have to keep trying. Rectify the electronic circuit to get a reasonable signal. The excitement comes later when you can properly hear and register the ticking of the clock. If I can help you with something with pleasure.


----------



## lednicazar

You mean that maybe I need more amplification??? 
To me is strange that I only get good level when I put my finger over the metal case of the watch (that's what's makes me suppose a grounding issue).
Tomorrow I will try to check more stuff


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Well, it's funny what you explain about how the signal improves when you put your finger on the watch case. If you could share a picture of your circuit with us, maybe we can see something.


----------



## tpiepho

The spectrograms in my latest version will do a good job of letting you see how good your signal is. Both signal level and background noise. I've also added a tppm display to help with adjusting levels, but that version isn't released yet.


----------



## bigorbi

tpiepho said:


> Updated TG with new features available for those who can build it.
> 
> contrate_wheel hasn't responded to activity on github for almost a year, so I've put together a version with all my work that's finished.
> 
> It's available as source on github, and if one is using Fedora there are binary packages on COPR. Building from source is quite trivial on Linux and MacOS and there are instructions in the README.
> 
> New features:
> 
> BPH values down to 8100 will work.
> Significant performance improvement. Should be over twice as fast now.
> Alternate layout with horizontal paperstrip can be toggled, allowing for a larger paperstrip with a greater length of displayed time.
> Free zoom on the paperstrip beat scale. Instead of being fixed at a tenth of a beat, it can freely zoom from one beat to one hundredth of a beat.
> Division between paperstrip and waveforms can be dragged to make one or the other larger.
> Audio device setup dialog that allows choosing input device and audio sample rate.
> High-pass filter cutoff frequency can be adjusted.
> A few bug fixes and internal improvements.


Hi friend,
I compiled your code in Windows 10 but everytime I try to start the exe file I get the same error : "The application was unable to start correctly (0xc000007b). Click OK to close the application."
I already searched all the web , installed DirectX runtimes , installed Net Framework runtimes . checked process monitor , checked dependency walker to find out what is the cause but so far no luck. Any ideas why the compiled exe file gives this error ?


----------



## bigorbi

bigorbi said:


> Hi friend,
> I compiled your code in Windows 10 but everytime I try to start the exe file I get the same error : "The application was unable to start correctly (0xc000007b). Click OK to close the application."
> I already searched all the web , installed DirectX runtimes , installed Net Framework runtimes . checked process monitor , checked dependency walker to find out what is the cause but so far no luck. Any ideas why the compiled exe file gives this error ?


Ok i managed to get it running through msys2 , it doesn`t work directly from exe file but that`s fine. 
Thank you for your contribution to this great tool friend! I appreciate it a lot.


----------



## tpiepho

Sorry, I don't use Windows myself, so don't know what the issue might be. I have zero issues on Linux and MacOS.


----------



## lednicazar

Guido Velasquez said:


> Hello @lednicazar, we have to keep trying. Rectify the electronic circuit to get a reasonable signal. The excitement comes later when you can properly hear and register the ticking of the clock. If I can help you with something with pleasure.


Finally I received the components to build the amp of the "Watch-O-Scope" website, and with that I get good results.



bigorbi said:


> Ok i managed to get it running through msys2 , it doesn`t work directly from exe file but that`s fine.
> Thank you for your contribution to this great tool friend! I appreciate it a lot.


I'm in the same situation as you. I'm trying to compile in windows the new version, i get the tg-timer.exe file but is not working. How do you execute that on windows??

Is not possible to build the .msi file?? Any knows how to compile that to get the windows msi?

Thanks btw for the software is wonderfull!!!


----------



## Lejaune

Windows installation file is readily available from the download site Tg timegrapher - download page. Is there a good reason to build it from the source?


----------



## lednicazar

Lejaune said:


> Windows installation file is readily available from the download site Tg timegrapher - download page. Is there a good reason to build it from the source?


Yes! To try the 0.6 version from tpiepho


----------



## Zedd88

Guido Velasquez said:


> Good news everyone. A dedicated plug and play microphone for use with tg timegrapher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10.29US $ |Instrumento de calibración de ordenador TGB, reloj mecánico de bolsillo, tiempo de calibración 1000, prueba de reparación de reloj, máquina de alambre|Contactores| - AliExpress
> 
> 
> ¡Compra fácil, vive mejor! Aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> es.aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16161626


With this device, does background noise affect the reading too much or this device has noise reduction (aside from the amplification that it has?

Am considering buying this device from Aliexpress, just don't know how much effective if it compared to a good mic and wrapping the watch in a towel.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Zedd88 said:


> With this device, does background noise affect the reading too much or this device has noise reduction (aside from the amplification that it has?
> 
> Am considering buying this device from Aliexpress, just don't know how much effective if it compared to a good mic and wrapping the watch in a towel.


The device has the characteristic that it is not exactly a microphone. Rather it is a vibration sensor. The vibrations are taken from the case, so almost any background noise is eliminated, unless it is very intense. Let's illustrate it. A normal conversation cannot be recorded by the device. But if you run a finger over the surface of the sensitive components you will hear perfectly. In my opinion, it is a purchase that is appropriate, as it will allow you to better hear the interior of a watch. It will also deliver a suitable sound to tg software or any other like watch-o-scope, or Biburo.


----------



## Zedd88

Guido Velasquez said:


> The device has the characteristic that it is not exactly a microphone. Rather it is a vibration sensor. The vibrations are taken from the case, so almost any background noise is eliminated, unless it is very intense. Let's illustrate it. A normal conversation cannot be recorded by the device. But if you run a finger over the surface of the sensitive components you will hear perfectly. In my opinion, it is a purchase that is appropriate, as it will allow you to better hear the interior of a watch. It will also deliver a suitable sound to tg software or any other like watch-o-scope, or Biburo.


Thanks, that's all I needed to know. I've placed an order already for this. Was afraid it was just like an ordinary mic and the purchase would have been useless and money that could have been saved for a proper timegrapher.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Zedd88 said:


> Thanks, that's all I needed to know. I've placed an order already for this. Was afraid it was just like an ordinary mic and the purchase would have been useless and money that could have been saved for a proper timegrapher.


We would like you to publish and share the results of your trial. They are very useful to the community. Greetings and success.


----------



## Zedd88

Guido Velasquez said:


> We would like you to publish and share the results of your trial. They are very useful to the community. Greetings and success.


I will once I get the item and get it to work. At the same time, I really don't have a baseline to compare it with so... It's just something for me to tinker with. Thanks


----------



## tpiepho

I posted a review of this microphone last year here, D. I. Y. Watch Timing Machine.

There's some more discussion about it in the thread that follows.


----------



## tpiepho

A bug that was causing crashes on Windows was identified and fixed. Might help those who want to try on that operating system. I've made a 0.6.1 release with the fix. You'll still have to compile yourself on Windows unless someone figures out how to make an install package.

Fedora Linux can just add my copr repository, dnf copr enable tpiepho/tg-timer and new versions will show up in the package manager.


----------



## feitelijk

Finally got around to testing tg on a windows machine, just put the watch on the headphone microphone.








The trace looks wonky, I did get some data with my own software and that looks a bit nicer.









Could it be that those pretty big wobbles of the escapementwheel throw off the peakdetection?
My method goes as:
I get the black raw data, first thing we do is get the derivative, this highlights the sharpest noise. We take the absolute value since we are interested in the location in time of the tick (or tock).
We smooth out those orange peaks with a gaussian filter and compare the resulting green line with the average pulse shape (differs for tick or tock) in blue. To determine the shift between the two we do a crosscorrelation and find where the peak is. That is the shift.


----------



## Lejaune

Edited. I said something incorrect so I deleted it. Can't delete message for some reason.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Hello congratulations. We are interested in your technology contributions.
The wobble or zigzag is because you are using the loudest sound in the waveform. This corresponds to the strike of the locking vane on the escape wheel, which is not perfectly circular. The sound that you must register and with which you would obtain a better graph is that of the impact of the ellipse pin of the steering wheel, in the fork of the lever. That would draw a very clean graph. The same happens with tg, and therefore the path is not clean.
In image 1 that I place you can see the three sounds. The first one, the black line: the unlocking, the second, the blue line: the impulse, and the third in cyan: the drop or lock. Image of Biburo.









In the second image a screenshot of tg, you see the zigzagging trace, because the software uses the loudest sound, coming from the escape wheel and the paddle on its locking face.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

Additionally, the sound obtained from the headphones is very poor, for this reason the software has difficulty identifying the different sounds produced by the ticking of the clock. It is worth trying to have a better sound coming to the software.


----------



## Lejaune

What I notice from the plot is that the "wobbling" has a period of almost exactly 10 5 seconds. I tend to believe that this is not a coincident but can't think of any plausible explanation.


----------



## Guido Velasquez

The escapement wheel in a 21,600 bph watch rotates one revolution every 5 seconds.


----------



## tpiepho

Yes, you are seeing the effect of the escape wheel. A longer term plot would show oscillations due to the 4th wheel, 3rd wheel, etc.

Tg's algorithm, as I understand it, is:

Audio is passed through a high pass filter. In my newer version I extended this to an arbitrary chain of biquad filters with an interactive way to set them up.
There is a noise suppressor that removes sounds much louder than the median. I don't think it really does all that much and plan to make an option to turn it off.
The audio is rectified: absolute value taken and then passed through a low pass filter. Then DC offset is removed.
The auto-correlation is computed. But not just of one beat of audio. It uses a 16 second period (actually the signal dots show the period length 2^dots seconds, max 16).
The peak auto-correlation is used to estimate the period. Period means two beats, not just one, so this should be the 2nd peak in the auto-correlation. The first, smaller, peak should be at one beat.
That estimate is used to look for the peaks near two periods, three periods, etc. Until a peak at the expected place isn't found or we get past ⅔ of the 16 second buffer. The peak after 15 periods should be higher that the others if the escape wheel as 15 teeth, because the sounds generated by the same escapement teeth are being compared. I wonder if that can be used to find the number of teeth? Or if the estimate from the number of periods equal to the teeth is more accurate? Instead of timing how long each back and forth of the balance takes, we are timing how long each revolution of the escape wheel takes, by comparing the entire 5 second sound of the escape wheel's revolution, made up of 30 slightly different ticks.
The final period estimate is the mean of the one period peak auto-correlation, two period peak, and so on. The standard deviation of these measurements is also found.
This period estimate is used as the s/d value. So this doesn't use the time of the loudest sound of each beat, to find the time between each beat, and then average ~10 seconds worth of those. It takes the entire ~10 second sound of the escape wheel making about two full revolutions and tries to find the best period to shift it by to optimally align it with itself. Of course, it's more important to align the loud parts than the quiet parts, so it does to some extent mean this is using the locking sound.

Calculation of the beat error, amplitude, and the points where the dots are drawn on the paperstrip is then an even longer series of computations.


----------



## chp

tpiepho said:


> A bug that was causing crashes on Windows was identified and fixed. Might help those who want to try on that operating system. I've made a 0.6.1 release with the fix. You'll still have to compile yourself on Windows unless someone figures out how to make an install package.
> 
> Fedora Linux can just add my copr repository, dnf copr enable tpiepho/tg-timer and new versions will show up in the package manager.


Could I please get some help compiling your version for windows. Everything went smoothly with no errors until I tried running tg-timer from my MSYS64 folder and I was missing some dll files. I copied the dll files from the Program Files (x86)/tg-timer folder and then got the “application was unable to start correctly (0xc000007b)” error. I copied my newly created tg-timer.exe to my Program Files (x86)/tg-timer folder and got the “application was unable to start correctly (0xc000007b)” error. My existing tg.exe (0.5.0) runs fine in the Program Files (x86)/tg-timer folder, but won't run if I copy it to my MSYS64 folder

I new to the windows compiling stuff. Could you please give me some suggestions.


----------



## peterhudson

chp said:


> Could I please get some help compiling your version for windows. Everything went smoothly with no errors until I tried running tg-timer from my MSYS64 folder and I was missing some dll files. I copied the dll files from the Program Files (x86)/tg-timer folder and then got the “application was unable to start correctly (0xc000007b)” error. I copied my newly created tg-timer.exe to my Program Files (x86)/tg-timer folder and got the “application was unable to start correctly (0xc000007b)” error. My existing tg.exe (0.5.0) runs fine in the Program Files (x86)/tg-timer folder, but won't run if I copy it to my MSYS64 folder
> 
> I new to the windows compiling stuff. Could you please give me some suggestions.


Have you tried launching it from within the MSYS64 shell that you compiled it in? From the shell prompt after the successful compile, trying typing ./tg-timer.exe


----------



## peterhudson

I know @tpiepho you must get inundated with feature requests... and perhaps this isn't a new one. But I was wondering if it'd be possible to somehow show a time series graph of amplitude, beat error, and rate over time? Or short of that, would it be possible to have an option to log these values to a file so that they could be plotted elsewhere? My reason for asking is because I have a case where I'd like to see what my amplitude and beat error are doing as a function of time, specifically I've noticed that the amplitude of my movement drops during the areas indicated in the pic below, but I don't have a way of charting this other than noting the amplitude by hand as each 10s line passes.


----------



## chp

peterhudson said:


> Have you tried launching it from within the MSYS64 shell that you compiled it in? From the shell prompt after the successful compile, trying typing ./tg-timer.exe


Thank you for your help. 

I didn't. I just tried and nothing happens. No errors, no missing dll's like before. I guess I complied it incorrectly? There were no errors flagged when I compiled it.


----------



## chp

chp said:


> Thank you for your help.
> 
> I didn't. I just tried and nothing happens. No errors, no missing dll's like before. I guess I complied it incorrectly? There were no errors flagged when I compiled it.


I deleted everything in my home folder and restarted. I'm missing two packages now: gtk+-3.0 and glib-2.0. 

Reinstalled Msys2. I now get:

configure: error: Package requirements (gtk+-3.0 glib-2.0) were not met:

Package 'gtk+-3.0', required by 'virtual:world', not found
Package 'glib-2.0', required by 'virtual:world', not found

Consider adjusting the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable if you
installed software in a non-standard prefix.

Alternatively, you may set the environment variables GTK_CFLAGS
and GTK_LIBS to avoid the need to call pkg-config.
See the pkg-config man page for more details.


----------



## tpiepho

@chp, I don't use windows myself and can't help with windows build issues. I know people have done it. Maybe the building the Linux version on WSL2 would be easier?

@peterhudson That feature does sound familiar. You'll find this branch has some of the features you want. I think also I've considered a few other features that might help.

Exporting data also considered. I've written something to create a jSON dump that I can work at making graphs in matplotlib. I thought, after adding in a Python interpreter to Tg, that maybe that would be the way to make more interesting longer term graphs.


----------



## peterhudson

tpiepho said:


> @chp, I don't use windows myself and can't help with windows build issues. I know people have done it. Maybe the building the Linux version on WSL2 would be easier?
> 
> @peterhudson That feature does sound familiar. You'll find this branch has some of the features you want. I think also I've considered a few other features that might help.
> 
> Exporting data also considered. I've written something to create a jSON dump that I can work at making graphs in matplotlib. I thought, after adding in a Python interpreter to Tg, that maybe that would be the way to make more interesting longer term graphs.


This is totally awesome. I had a complete facepalm moment when I went back into your repo and saw I'd compiled from Master which was 75 commits behind your feature branch 

The visualization is exactly what I needed. And I love the new scrollable graphs. Great to be able to go back and look at events in the past.

I had a look at the data serialization in the .tgj file... Is there a commit where the data is serialized as JSON? I couldn't find it a commit or PR attached to the feature. 

Also, since we're here... I was wondering about keyboard shortcuts for things like moving the paperstrip up & down (PgUp / PgDn), and center (Home). My rational for keyboard shortcuts is that when I'm regulating a watch, I often have a tool in my dominant hand, but after making an adjustment to a regulator, I want to see the paperstrip centered so my eye can easily follow any changes, but currently I have to put down my tool to use the mouse with my dominant hand. A challenge with this suggestion is that the input boxes for BPH, Lift Angle, and Cal, all respond to up/down/home/end/pgup/pgdn keystrokes if they have the focus (at least on Windows). As such we might be overloading the keyboard shortcuts. Maybe a "keep paperstrip centered" mode? although that might be computationally expensive to call the center function for every tic/toc.

Also... a minor bug report: the Clear button doesn't remove the amplitude graph from the paperstrip.


----------



## Lejaune

*tpiepho, *Thanks for your great work!

I got the latest 0.6.1 source from github.

My gcc compiler seems to have problem with the Greek letters σ and ω you use as variables in output_panel.c. I changed them to sigma and omega, and the problem went away. Is there an option to set for the compiler to recognize the 8-bit ascii letters so I don't have to change the source code?

Also, on line 22 of the same file, it doesn't like "zoom_mid = (zoom_min + zoom_max)/2" to be declared as static const double, so I replaced them with "#define ......".


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## tpiepho

You just need a compiler that's not ancient. gcc has been able to process utf-8 variable names since gcc 10. Clang and Visual C since like a decade ago.

I never got the jSON support to a finished state. There's extra stuff one needs, like put a button somewhere to activate it, document the format, some kind of dialog for choosing the filename to save to, an error message of the file can't be written, etc. Dumping all the timing data to json in way *I* can load into python and analyze it is only like 10% of the work. Something usable to someone who doesn't look through the source to find it and figure it out takes more.

A continuous center feature would be easy to do. One needs to understand the current center function means to center the most recent beat in the paperstrip. It doesn't look at the entire trace history and try to "best" center everything. Given that, it's easy to keep centered. It's actually far harder to do what I did to keep the trace from moving up/down as it scrolls while also allowing continuous zoom. It's more of a UI problem. Where do you put the button to turn this on and off? Next to the center button? Something in the paperstrip window itself like the zoom button? Another check box in the main menu, which is getting to be kind of long?

The default zoom level, 10x, is somewhat optimistic. If the watch is off by more than few s/d, you get traces that quickly go from edge to edge, like yours does about a minute in. You can zoom out so they don't wrap around so much and I think it's easier to see the changes.


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## Guido Velasquez

Hello everyone. And thank you very much for contributing to this thread.
Seeing how knowledgeable @tpiepho is in this software, I'd like to make a request to @tpiepho.
The software draws the dots on the paper strip derived from the beat at the “0” point. What makes the succession of points on the paper strip very irregular because the "Zero" point corresponds to the blows of the paddles on the escape wheel. Because it is not perfectly circular, this generates an irregularity in the drawing and, generally, a regular undulation that is repeated every time the escape wheel completes a turn.
My request is the following. Would it be possible to take the beats of the first sound in the waveform to draw the succession of dots on the strip of paper?








Thanks.


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## tpiepho

The difficulty is the first sound is the quietest, so it's harder to find. It requires a good quality microphone and audio.


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## Osboy

Hello, did someone get same issue on macbook air M1 ?


http://imgur.com/a/L8f0nhj


I've tried to reinstall libpthread-stubs but same issue..
Thanks you

EDIT : Fixed with compiling from source


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