# H movements inferior to ETA?



## yoosp

Hey guys,

I'm in the market for a Hamilton and saw that they are putting in a modified ETA movement(H series) now as opposed to the original ETA movements. I've read that the H movements achieve a higher power reserve by dropping the bph, but not only that, they also replaced a lot of the internals with cheaper parts.

I just wanted to know if there is any truth to this.

Thanks.


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## Rice and Gravy

I believe any notion of a lot of the internals being replaced with cheaper parts is unsubstantiated. I have not seen any claim to that effect or seen that proven to be true. The bph is less so the second hand sweep is not quite as smooth as ETA, but for increased power reserve I am fine with that. I have two H-10 powered Hamilton watches (one is for sale) and they have both been EXTREMELY accurate. 

I just did a side by side comparison of my Squale (ETA 2824-2) and my Khaki (H-10) and the difference in the sweep is barely detectable in my opinion. And from the exhibition case back of the Hamilton the parts look pretty robust to me.


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## wdrazek

Rice and Gravy said:


> I have two H-10 powered Hamilton watches (one is for sale) and they have both been EXTREMELY accurate.


This is something I've seen reported often. That would be reason for me to prefer the H movement which is of course based on the ETA.


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## HamiltonElectric

I have 3 H-series watches and they are incredibly accurate. Much more so than the standard ETA calibers. I've never heard any claims of using cheaper parts. I suspect it's quite the opposite.


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## yankeexpress

As long as they don't reduce the beat rate in search of longer power reserve. Prefer the smoother beat rate.


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## mjmurphy926

From everything I've read, the BPH isn't lowered in order to achieve the higher reserve time, that is accomplished by an improved main spring. In fact, from the specs I've read on watchbase.com, the BPH rate of the H movements are the same as the ETA movement it is derived from. In the case of the H21, that's 28800 BPH. For the H10, that's 21600 BPH.

From all the reviews I've been able to find, the H movements are actually considered to be upgrades of the ETA base movements, not downgrades.

EDIT: So, after digging a little deeper, I now think I understand the evolution oh the H10. It seems like it was derived from the ETA C07.111 which is also known as Tissot and Certina Powermatic 80. The 80 in the name denotes the power reserve. This movement was derived from the ETA 2824-2 and in order to attain the 80 hour power reserve, the frequency was dropped to 21,600 BPH. 

The H21 and H31 still retain the 28800 BPH of the ETA movements they were derived from though.


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## JustBlueFish

Maybe I got unlucky but my h10 movement Hamilton wasn't particularly accurate. It was running around -5 s/d when I got it. After breaking in for a month or so it got worse, -8 s/d. Nothing impressive, albeit not terrible either. 

In hindsight, I'd rather the stock 2824-2. At least it's easier to regulate. 


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## balzebub

I think the H movements are improved versions of the base ETA movement. 

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## JustBlueFish

HamiltonElectric said:


> I have 3 H-series watches and they are incredibly accurate. Much more so than the standard ETA calibers. I've never heard any claims of using cheaper parts. I suspect it's quite the opposite.


Someone posted a while back that they couldn't put their H 10 movement on a timegrapher and get it to read correctly.

What they discovered was the pallet fork and one other part were made out of plastic, because of that it wasn't producing the correct sound for the timegrapher to read the rate.

Now whether or not you consider that to be "cheaper" parts or not is I guess debatable?

I do think that removing the regulator and replacing parts that cause it to not read correctly on a time Grapher are a big step backwards, if you have a watch that is in need of regulation.

But almost everyone says that their H10 watches are incredibly accurate, so I guess maybe that doesn't matter? I wasn't super enthusiastic about mine running -8/s per day, but I suppose I was just unlucky.

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## mjmurphy926

JustBlueFish said:


> Someone posted a while back that they couldn't put their H 10 movement on a timegrapher and get it to read correctly.
> 
> What they discovered was the pallet fork and one other part were made out of plastic, because of that it wasn't producing the correct sound for the timegrapher to read the rate.
> 
> Now whether or not you consider that to be "cheaper" parts or not is I guess debatable?
> 
> I do think that removing the regulator and replacing parts that cause it to not read correctly on a time Grapher are a big step backwards, if you have a watch that is in need of regulation.
> 
> But almost everyone says that their H10 watches are incredibly accurate, so I guess maybe that doesn't matter? I wasn't super enthusiastic about mine running -8/s per day, but I suppose I was just unlucky.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Please don't mistake this as me calling you a liar, because I'm definitely not, but I'd be interested in seeing proof of plastic parts in any of the H series movements.

By the way, there is another post from a couple days ago questioning what the beat rate of an H10 is supposed to be because the poster put his H10 driven watch on a timegrapher and it read 21600 BPH when he thought it was supposed to be 28800. He didn't mention any issue with his timegrapher not being able to read it.


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## JustBlueFish

mjmurphy926 said:


> Please don't mistake this as me calling you a liar, because I'm definitely not, but I'd be interested in seeing proof of plastic parts in any of the H series movements.
> 
> By the way, there is another post from a couple days ago questioning what the beat rate of an H10 is supposed to be because the poster put his H10 driven watch on a timegrapher and it read 21600 BPH when he thought it was supposed to be 28800. He didn't mention any issue with his timegrapher not being able to read it.


This thread talks about the Powermatic 80 having a plastic pallet fork and escapement wheel. I can't be 100% sure, but I assume this applies to the H - 10 as well.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/tissot-powermatic-80-problems-3036370.html

The thread that the guy talks about not being able to get his Hamilton to read on time Grapher is out there if you feel like Google searching it. As I recall he said that when he took the case back off it would read, but because of the plastic pallet fork, the tick-tock sound wasn't loud enough for the time Grapher to hear it with the case back on the watch.

There's also threads that talk about swatch sistem 51 watches, and compare those and their disposable movements to the Tissot Powermatic 80 and Hamilton H - 10 movements.

I don't know what it all means. Maybe it's completely irrelevant, and it doesn't matter at all that the watch movement has plastic parts and that they removed the regulator. That's for each of us to decide before we spend our money I guess.

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## mjmurphy926

JustBlueFish said:


> This thread talks about the Powermatic 80 having a plastic pallet fork and escapement wheel. I can't be 100% sure, but I assume this applies to the H - 10 as well.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/tissot-powermatic-80-problems-3036370.html
> 
> The thread that the guy talks about not being able to get his Hamilton to read on time Grapher is out there if you feel like Google searching it. As I recall he said that when he took the case back off it would read, but because of the plastic pallet fork, the tick-tock sound wasn't loud enough for the time Grapher to hear it with the case back on the watch.
> 
> There's also threads that talk about swatch sistem 51 watches, and compare those and their disposable movements to the Tissot Powermatic 80 and Hamilton H - 10 movements.
> 
> I don't know what it all means. Maybe it's completely irrelevant, and it doesn't matter at all that the watch movement has plastic parts and that they removed the regulator. That's for each of us to decide before we spend our money I guess.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's really good info BlueFish. Thanks!

I just bought a Hamilton with an H21 movement. Appearance wise, it looks a lot closer to a standard 7750 than the H10 looks to the 2824 and the reserve increase isn't nearly as much nor did the BPH drop, so I hope they didn't follow suit on the H21 by replacing the escapement wheel and pallet fork with "composite" parts.

EDIT: Actually, I just looked through a 10x loupe since my H40656781 has an exhibition caseback and the escapement wheel and pallet fork are definitely metal on the H21. I spent about 20 minutes examining the movement and I could find no plastic. Of course there are many parts of the movement that aren't visible through the caseback window, but at least I know the 2 parts that were replaced with plastic parts on the Powermatic 80 are metal on the H21.


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## mjmurphy926

Another observation: From what I gather in the linked powermatic 80 post, the plastic pallet fork doesn't have the 2 jewels that the standard 2824's pallet fork has and that's why the jewel count for the powermatic 80 is 23 as opposed to the 25 jewel count of the 2824. Given the fact that the jewel count of the H10 is 25, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the H10 has reverted back to a jeweled metal pallet fork and escapement wheel.

It would be cool if someone who has one could check. It should be visible through any watch with an exhibition caseback.

By the way, I did google search that post about a watch that wouldn't read properly on a timegrapher unless the caseback was removed and I'm pretty sure I found what you were referring to. It was actually a powermatic 80 driven Tissot he was trying to read and he was asking for anyone with a Hamilton H10 to see if they may have tried to put their H10 on a timegrapher and had the same issues. There were no replies.


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## Sid_Mac

I came across this: Hamilton Calibers | Hamilton University


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## buyingtime

Sid_Mac said:


> I came across this: Hamilton Calibers | Hamilton University


Great link! I'm just getting up to speed on the 'newer' hamilton movements and this is much better than what I was coming up with on google.


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## Paul1963

I have a H10 in a Khaki Field and runs at +0.2 per day without fail. Of all the ETA 2824 and Selita SW200 derived movements I have it is by far the best and also the cheapest by far! Great watch for the money!

Paul


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## Worker

I was just considering a watch with this movement in the frogman 42mm. 

I will stay clear if you guys think it is subbing out inferior parts. Has there been any conclusions yet? 


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## Worker

As a side note to the above post (I'm sure most everyone here already knows this), I called the Swatch Group today and asked if the watches with the H10 movements can be serviced. The confirmed they can be, but must be sent back to them. I also asked about the plastic pieces mentioned earlier in this thread and they will be calling me back. 

So I guess maybe my watchmaker would not be able to help with any of these movements.


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## JustBlueFish

Worker said:


> As a side note to the above post (I'm sure most everyone here already knows this), I called the Swatch Group today and asked if the watches with the H10 movements can be serviced. The confirmed they can be, but must be sent back to them. I also asked about the plastic pieces mentioned earlier in this thread and they will be calling me back.
> 
> So I guess maybe my watchmaker would not be able to help with any of these movements.


That is the conclusion I came to, that if you have a local watchmaker it's unlikely he has the tools or expertise to work on this movement. As much as I liked my Hamilton, because of that and only average accuracy (-8s/d) I decided to sell it.

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## mjmurphy926

I believe I have found photographic proof the the H-10 uses a metal escapement wheel and pallet fork with jewels. This is an H-10-S (skeleton version of H-10) and it definitely has pallet fork jewels and that escapement wheel sure looks metallic to me:


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## Aonarch

I love ETA, so I want an ETA.

My simple explanation.


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## wdrazek

Oh boy. So a $400 or so purchase has to go back to the mfr? That makes the long term cost of ownership awfully high compared to the original purchase.



Worker said:


> As a side note to the above post (I'm sure most everyone here already knows this), I called the Swatch Group today and asked if the watches with the H10 movements can be serviced. The confirmed they can be, but must be sent back to them. I also asked about the plastic pieces mentioned earlier in this thread and they will be calling me back.
> 
> So I guess maybe my watchmaker would not be able to help with any of these movements.


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## wdrazek

Oh boy. So a $400 or so purchase has to go back to the mfr? That makes the long term cost of ownership awfully high compared to the original purchase.



Worker said:


> As a side note to the above post (I'm sure most everyone here already knows this), I called the Swatch Group today and asked if the watches with the H10 movements can be serviced. The confirmed they can be, but must be sent back to them. I also asked about the plastic pieces mentioned earlier in this thread and they will be calling me back.
> 
> So I guess maybe my watchmaker would not be able to help with any of these movements.


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## publandlord

Aonarch said:


> I love ETA, so I want an ETA.
> 
> My simple explanation.


They are ETA movements, so that's just as simple!


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## dchapma1

My H-10 is very accurate - still timing in at around +7 sec / day after a month of constant running. I think the H movements are just as good as ETA.


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## impetusera

dchapma1 said:


> My H-10 is very accurate - still timing in at around +7 sec / day after a month of constant running. I think the H movements are just as good as ETA.


The H movements are ETA movements. Have one in my Hamilton and it has the ETA stamp. Yes it is 21600 vs 28800 and there's noticeable difference in the sweep, only if you're looking for it though. Probably the biggest benefit to 21600 beat is it makes the movement more robust.


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## impetusera

wdrazek said:


> Oh boy. So a $400 or so purchase has to go back to the mfr? That makes the long term cost of ownership awfully high compared to the original purchase.


I doubt it requires sending to them for routine service. Maybe if parts are required that would be an issue. Hamilton has pretty reasonable service costs though so don't see the big issue with sending it to them.


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## mr_raider

Worker said:


> I was just considering a watch with this movement in the frogman 42mm.
> 
> I will stay clear if you guys think it is subbing out inferior parts. Has there been any conclusions yet?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The new Frogman (men?) are beatiful, especially the blue colored one. I've seen them in person and they are solid quality watches, right up there with Longines in build quality. I would not be afraid to buy one, due to the movement. Swatch is slowly putting in their longer reserve movemnts in all their lines. It's appeared in tissot, Mido and Hamilton lines. They will become ubiquitous soon enough.

Note that I have not seen these movements outside the Swatch group. They still get the old 38 hour ebauches.


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## rrchmnn

Really appreciate this breakdown - took me way less time to look this up in the forum then piece together from different sites!


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## pjviitas

mjmurphy926 said:


> Please don't mistake this as me calling you a liar, because I'm definitely not, but I'd be interested in seeing proof of plastic parts in any of the H series movements.
> 
> By the way, there is another post from a couple days ago questioning what the beat rate of an H10 is supposed to be because the poster put his H10 driven watch on a timegrapher and it read 21600 BPH when he thought it was supposed to be 28800. He didn't mention any issue with his timegrapher not being able to read it.


Same movement as the Powermatic 80 ETA caliber C07.111 » WatchBase.com


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## pjviitas

Translate this page Wyj?tkowy mechanizm. Certina DS Powermatic 80 | Zegarki


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## pjviitas

There appears to be servicing issues with these new movements https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/tissot-powermatic-80-problems-3036370.html


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## wdrazek

pjviitas said:


> There appears to be servicing issues with these new movements https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/tissot-powermatic-80-problems-3036370.html


Very interesting thread. Sure gives me pause when considering the newer Swatch movements. Disposable engines are not what I want in my watches. I suppose time will tell if the failures are frequent or oddities.


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## impetusera

pjviitas said:


> There appears to be servicing issues with these new movements https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/tissot-powermatic-80-problems-3036370.html


What's the servicing issue? The watch went in with a fault, was serviced and came back with the same fault. No mention in there of any parts replaced, just a straight clean and oil. Who knows how the movement was treated for 2 years and sometimes things just happen. I had a pallet stone fall off a fork once. The watchmaker suggested replacing the movement with a 2824-2 at what cost? Send it in to swatch for the $190 full service and that covers movement replacement if necessary.


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## buyingtime

Yeah, I can't imagine the modified ETA movements are 'inferior', and I think 'disposable' was a poor word choice in the other thread (that didn't end up being true if you read the whole thread). 

Unless you routinely have your Hamiltons serviced locally (I don't think that many people have their Hamiltons serviced to begin with), I don't see how the newer, modified movements would affect your ownership experience...other than providing longer power reserve of course. There's currently no proof that it would be more susceptible to failure. It's just that some local watchmakers might not be able to service them properly, but that's what happens with innovation and progress...some people get left behind. I know I'd have no issues buying one and am intrigued at the thought. 

In any event, interesting thread that I'm glad I came back to. I keep learning more on this topic.


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## whineboy

Here's a thought, I wonder if, when designing the H-10 movement, Hamilton/ETA took steps to correct the "alleged" handwinding problems that dog the 2824-2?
(like global warming, not everyone believes in it. I believe in both.)
Discussion of 2824-2 handwinding issues: https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/f6-2824-handwinding-thread-866942.html


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## cprrckwlf

pjviitas said:


> There appears to be servicing issues with these new movements https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/tissot-powermatic-80-problems-3036370.html


One thing to note is the H-10 is not the Powermatic 80. They are brothers, but not twins...

The Powermatic, from my understanding, is set-it-and-forget-it. It's timed/regulated at the factory and designed without any way to adjust it... similar to the System51. The H-10 has adjusting screws on the balance arm, per @hamiltonelectric here #5. (hamiltonelectric is Hamilton's consulting historian, which I'm going to trust puts him in a position to know.)


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## Racontour

Tell me if false or true:
H series ie powermatic
Silicone mainspring

I read somewhere no escapement. I have been trying to find the article I read that from.


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## NC_Hager626

Racontour said:


> Tell me if false or true:
> H series ie powermatic
> Silicone mainspring
> 
> I read somewhere no escapement. I have been trying to find the article I read that from.


To answer your questions:
1) Hamilton's H movements are not Powermatic80. Only Tissot and Certina incorporates the Powermatic80 movements in their watches.
2) At the present time, almost all of Hamilton's H movements do not have silicon (note, there is no e at the end of "silicon") hairsprings - the exception being the Khaki X-Wind Auto Chrono Limited Edition. However, as their old stock is replaced with new stock, models with the Hamilton H-21 and H-31 movements will have a silicon hairspring, while the nivachron anti-magnetic hairspring will be used in their non-chronograph movements.


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## MrDisco99

The Hamilton H-10 (ETA C07.611) uses traditional (metal fork with jeweled pallets) escapement and standard (not silicon) hairspring.

The Tissot/Certina Powermatic 80 movement (C07.111) uses a "hi-tech" composite (plastic) escapement and standard hairspring.

The Tissot/Certina Powermatic 80 Silicium movement (C07.711) uses a traditional escapement and a silicon hairspring.

Otherwise they are pretty similar evolutions of the ETA 2824-2, with 80 hour power reserve, 21600bph, and free sprung balance with no regulator pins.


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## toxophilus

Below is my timegrapher experience with my first Hamilton _(bought it new in box). _I had read that it takes a bit for these movement to 'settle in', I'm very content with the time keeping of this 'H' movement; wearing it daily on wrist as of this writing, it averages a few seconds a day fast.

I'll probably check it again in November to see how it compares from when I first got it. This along with my Marathon GSAR _(ETA-2824)_ / TMD Industries PD-181 _(SW200-2)_ / Used H64615555 _(H-40)_ are my most accurate wrist watches.

*Khaki Aviation Pilot H64715145*
Movement; H-30 _(ETA 2836-2)_
VPH; 21600

*05.18.20*
_Horizontal:_
DU; +6/+8 232° 0.3ms
DD; +4/+5 235° 0.0ms

_Vertical:_
PD; +7/+13 181° 0.7ms 
PU; -4/+3 179° 0.0ms
PR; -2/+3 173° 0.6ms
PL; +4/+7 184° 0.0ms

_Typing; _ -2/-5 272° 0.1ms

*01.25.20*
_Horizontal:_
DU; 0/+4 302° 0.0ms
DD; 0/+2 271° 0.1ms

_Vertical:_
PD; -1/+1 254° 0.4ms 
PU; -5/0 247° 0.2ms
PR; -4/-7 264° 0.3ms
PL; +1/+4 263° 0.1ms

_Typing;_ -2/-5 272° 0.1ms

*12.25.19*
_Horizontal:_
DU; -7/-11 266° 0.2ms
DD; -8/-12 270° 0.2ms

_Vertical:_
PD; -10/-12 217° 0.5ms 
PU; -11/-13 260° 0.0ms
PR; -16/-19 229° 0.4ms
PL; -2/-4 235° 0.1ms

_Typing;_ -10/-12 238° 0.1ms

*New Watch; 11.27.19*
_Horizontal:_
DU; 0/+2 286° 0.2ms
DD; 0/+2 286° 0.1ms

_Vertical:_
PD; -1/+1 266° 0.1ms 
PU; 0/+2 260° 0.0ms
PR; -4/0 255° 0.4ms
PL; N/A N/A° N/Ams

_Typical Typing;_ -2/0 279° 0.0ms


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