# DIY Mechanical Watch kit?



## Valksing

G'day!

As I'm getting more into watches and watch making, I'd love to learn more about mechanical watches and their inner workings.
Does anyone know of any DIY kits that let you build your own mechanical watch/movement? I think the best way to learn is to tackle it hands-on.
Sorry if a similar post has been made before, I couldn't find any.

Thank you!


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## wgarbo

Interesting idea. I'd be down for it.


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## DayDatenut

https://www.esslinger.com/make-my-own-watch-kit/

Something like this?


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## sokard

DayDatenut said:


> https://www.esslinger.com/make-my-own-watch-kit/
> 
> Something like this?


Actually there are plenty of choices on e-bay where you can choose the movement and the case, dial and hands you like and build your own watch.
Almost 90% of them come from China so the quality is not the best but you can find also cases and dials/hands made in Swiss or Germany which are of higher quality.
For the movement yo can choose from automatic or hand winding. For automatic there are the ETAs with 2892 being the best and the more used 2824 for the Swiss, then you can find miyota and Seiko and finally you can buy a Chinese clone which is perfect if you can clean it and oil it yourself before installation.
It all depends on you budget...


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## Valksing

DayDatenut said:


> https://www.esslinger.com/make-my-own-watch-kit/
> 
> Something like this?





sokard said:


> Actually there are plenty of choices on e-bay where you can choose the movement and the case, dial and hands you like and build your own watch.
> Almost 90% of them come from China so the quality is not the best but you can find also cases and dials/hands made in Swiss or Germany which are of higher quality.
> For the movement yo can choose from automatic or hand winding. For automatic there are the ETAs with 2892 being the best and the more used 2824 for the Swiss, then you can find miyota and Seiko and finally you can buy a Chinese clone which is perfect if you can clean it and oil it yourself before installation.
> It all depends on you budget...


Yeah I've seen those before, interested in that too. Ali-Xpress has some nice choice in watch cases, movements and dials too.

But what I'm looking for most is a kit to assemble your own mechanical/automatic movement.
I might just buy a cheap Miyota or buy a used 7S26 from ebay and disassemble it to reassemble again.

But if anyone has any info on existing kits that allow you to build a movement from start to finish with instructions, that'd be fantastic.


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## GeneJockey

Valksing said:


> Yeah I've seen those before, interested in that too. Ali-Xpress has some nice choice in watch cases, movements and dials too.
> 
> But what I'm looking for most is a kit to assemble your own mechanical/automatic movement.
> I might just buy a cheap Miyota or buy a used 7S26 from ebay and disassemble it to reassemble again.
> 
> But if anyone has any info on existing kits that allow you to build a movement from start to finish with instructions, that'd be fantastic.


I'm not clear what you mean "build a movement from start to finish" - you mean, all the bits finished just waiting to put together? Or 'Here's some sheet brass. Punch out a circle of X diameter and file 70 equal-sized teeth around the perimeter'?

Really, though, any movement you buy, new or used, should probably be disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled and lubed before use. Even unused, new movements may have sat on the shelf long enough to dry out.


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## nvpliers

I like the idea. Maybe they'll expand to offer other movements, like Miyota 9015s, or even ETAs.


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## nnt

My suggestion would be to stay away from kits. It's the same generally with most things consisting of parts, the sum of the parts will exceed the cost of the finished product by a factor of 3, many times, if not more when you consider the end product was tested.

Order the wrong part and you'll likely have to bear/eat the cost. Example would be movements, generally not refundable. Experienced or not why create possible issue when they can be avoided? The selection of watches today is vastly superior to the past from retro, contemporary to the unusual.

I'm rather fastinated by the Richard Mille watches. Hoping for a homage someday.


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## GeneJockey

nnt said:


> My suggestion would be to stay away from kits. It's the same generally with most things consisting of parts, the sum of the parts will exceed the cost of the finished product by a factor of 3, many times, if not more when you consider the end product was tested.
> 
> Order the wrong part and you'll likely have to bear/eat the cost. Example would be movements, generally not refundable. Experienced or not why create possible issue when they can be avoided? The selection of watches today is vastly superior to the past from retro, contemporary to the unusual.
> 
> I'm rather fastinated by the Richard Mille watches. Hoping for a homage someday.


I do kind of get the idea of a greater sense of 'ownership' of something you put together yourself. But I get that by cleaning and oiling my watches before putting them in rotation. Once I've had it apart, and cleaned it, and put it all back together and got it running well, it feels more 'mine' than just having purchased it.


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## Valksing

GeneJockey said:


> I'm not clear what you mean "build a movement from start to finish" - you mean, all the bits finished just waiting to put together? Or 'Here's some sheet brass. Punch out a circle of X diameter and file 70 equal-sized teeth around the perimeter'?
> 
> Really, though, any movement you buy, new or used, should probably be disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled and lubed before use. Even unused, new movements may have sat on the shelf long enough to dry out.


Obviously I meant to have a set of assembly-ready parts to assemble a movement.
So all the gears, rotor, balance wheel, etc.

I think it's obvious I cannot make a watch from a bunch of metal sheets and raw materials. I'm no wizard.


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## ironmanang

Valksing said:


> Yeah I've seen those before, interested in that too. Ali-Xpress has some nice choice in watch cases, movements and dials too.
> 
> But what I'm looking for most is a kit to assemble your own mechanical/automatic movement.
> I might just buy a cheap Miyota or buy a used 7S26 from ebay and disassemble it to reassemble again.
> 
> But if anyone has any info on existing kits that allow you to build a movement from start to finish with instructions, that'd be fantastic.


look buy a movement and disassemble then reassemble....its easier to assembly a movement after you disassembled it because you will then know where everything goes i cant imagine putting together a movement even with instructions without taking it apart first. look up ST2130 its a high quality clone of the 2824 automatic or go with the mechanical ST3621 which replaces eta 6498 is larger movement and less complex than the 2130....you always down the line get a case dial and hands to make a watch


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## GeneJockey

Valksing said:


> Obviously I meant to have a set of assembly-ready parts to assemble a movement.
> So all the gears, rotor, balance wheel, etc.
> 
> I think it's obvious I cannot make a watch from a bunch of metal sheets and raw materials. I'm no wizard.


I have not seen or heard of any kits of parts to build a movement from. Whole movements can be bought, and they have the advantage that you can be sure the parts all worked together, at least until you took it apart.


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## pithy

Valksing said:


> . . . . I'm no wizard.


Neither was GD.


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## Valksing

pithy said:


> Neither was GD.


Who? Didn't catch that


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## pithy

Valksing said:


> Who? Didn't catch that


George Daniels.

Your money is better spent on his book.


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## ironmanang

pithy said:


> George Daniels.
> 
> Your money is better spent on his book.


Yea and wasnt GD self taught? Not bad for a guy who designed the Coaxial and built watches from scratch.


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## BillSWPA

If the goal is to build a complete watch for the learning and experience of having done so, the Esslinger kit is probably the least expensive option. There are other options which allow you more flexibility in parts selection but cost more. I believe Orto Frei may have some. If the goal is the end product itself, you will be better off just buying a complete watch.

If you do not already own the tools, they will add to the total cost. The Esslinger tool kits are probably a good start.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ironmanang

BillSWPA said:


> If the goal is to build a complete watch for the learning and experience of having done so, the Esslinger kit is probably the least expensive option.


esslinger tool kit is great but this is cheapest option in my opinion and it will produce a decent quality watch with more style options. Not too thrilled with esslinger's watches and options. With options below one can make a clone Rolex GMT, Submariner, Planet Ocean, or a cool looking Modern Trench watch.

Movement: Automatic ST2130 (ETA 2824 clone) $67.99 ebay or Mechanical ST 3620 (ETA 6498 Clone) $45 ebay
Dial: Many options $15-$25 on ebay
Case: Many options $25-$40 w/ mineral crystal or $60 with sapphire on ebay
Hands: Many Options $5-$20 on ebay

Automatic with sapphire Approx. $160
Automatic with Mineral Approx. $140
Mechanical with mineral Approx. $100
Tool Kit: $60 - $80 on esslinger ($80 kit recommended for this project)

Max Cost $240 less cost $160 all with tools

EDIT: I recommend the ST 3620 its a larger pocket watch size movement and is less complex than the 2130 - better of with this as a beginner. there is also a class on this exact movement: https://www.timezonewatchschool.com/WatchSchool/Course Catalog/course catalog.shtml 
level 1 coarse goes over assembly as well as disassembly and it only cost $75
level 2 coarse is on the ST2130 automatic movement above and also cost only $75


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## pithy

ironmanang said:


> esslinger tool kit is great but this is cheapest option in my opinion and it will produce a decent quality watch with more style options. Not too thrilled with esslinger's watches and options. With options below one can make a clone Rolex GMT, Submariner, Planet Ocean, or a cool looking Modern Trench watch.
> 
> Movement: Automatic ST2130 (ETA 2824 clone) $67.99 ebay or Mechanical ST 3620 (ETA 6498 Clone) $45 ebay
> Dial: Many options $15-$25 on ebay
> Case: Many options $25-$40 w/ mineral crystal or $60 with sapphire on ebay
> Hands: Many Options $5-$20 on ebay
> 
> Automatic with sapphire Approx. $160
> Automatic with Mineral Approx. $140
> Mechanical with mineral Approx. $100
> Tool Kit: $60 - $80 on esslinger ($80 kit recommended for this project)
> 
> Max Cost $240 less cost $160 all with tools
> 
> EDIT: I recommend the ST 3620 its a larger pocket watch size movement and is less complex than the 2130 - better of with this as a beginner. there is also a class on this exact movement: https://www.timezonewatchschool.com/WatchSchool/Course Catalog/course catalog.shtml
> level 1 coarse goes over assembly as well as disassembly and it only cost $75
> level 2 coarse is on the ST2130 automatic movement above and also cost only $75


Chinese junk. Appropriate recommendation in consideration of the source.


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## ironmanang

pithy said:


> Chinese junk. Appropriate recommendation in consideration of the source.


we are talking about noobie here not George Daniels. There is a pretty good chance he will loose a screw or spring at least if he screws it up he didnt waste too much money.

EDIT: OP if you really want to spend the money then get the ETA cost is about $150-$220


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## pithy

ironmanang said:


> we are talking about noobie here not George Daniels. There is a pretty good chance he will loose a screw or spring at least if he screws it up he didnt waste too much money.
> 
> EDIT: OP if you really want to spend the money then get the ETA cost is about $150-$220


From a neophyte . . . .


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## ironmanang

pithy said:


> From a neophyte . . . .


sorry being doing this a few years. And i think I have potential, willing to learn as much as i can. Maybe iam not on your level yet, but i guess it make you feel good to put the little guys down so glad i can be that guy for you. stick and stones...


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## pithy

ironmanang said:


> sorry being doing this a few years. . . .


That is not at all obvious from your body of work herein.

Further, your reference to another poster on this forum as a "noobie" is the height of hypocrisy.


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## ironmanang

pithy said:


> That is not at all obvious from your body of work herein.
> 
> Further, your reference to another poster on this forum as a "noobie" is the height of hypocrisy.


i fixed watches, built watches, and modded watches. Iam well beyond my first assembly. for someone who brings up GD a lot you sure dont seem to have any faith in self learning.


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## Valksing

pithy said:


> That is not at all obvious from your body of work herein.
> 
> Further, your reference to another poster on this forum as a "noobie" is the height of hypocrisy.


Please stop being rather passive-aggressive and demeaning towards others.
We are not on your level, I get that, but please can you be happy that someone is enthusiastic enough about watchmaking that they want to get into it?
We all start somewhere, Carroll Shelby was a chicken farmer and Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook in his college dorm.
Yes, even George Daniels started by doing simple repairs with basic tools.

Can a mod please shut this thread down? I have the information I needed and I feel that keeping this thread open will only lead to a bigger cat fight and more nonsensical jabber.


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## pithy

Valksing said:


> Please stop being rather passive-aggressive and demeaning towards others.
> We are not on your level, I get that, but please can you be happy that someone is enthusiastic enough about watchmaking that they want to get into it?
> We all start somewhere, Carroll Shelby was a chicken farmer and Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook in his college dorm.
> Yes, even George Daniels started by doing simple repairs with basic tools.
> 
> Can a mod please shut this thread down? I have the information I needed and I feel that keeping this thread open will only lead to a bigger cat fight and more nonsensical jabber.


Lol. Noted.


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## ironmanang

Valksing said:


> Please stop being rather passive-aggressive and demeaning towards others.
> We are not on your level, I get that, but please can you be happy that someone is enthusiastic enough about watchmaking that they want to get into it?
> We all start somewhere, Carroll Shelby was a chicken farmer and Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook in his college dorm.
> Yes, even George Daniels started by doing simple repairs with basic tools.
> 
> Can a mod please shut this thread down? I have the information I needed and I feel that keeping this thread open will only lead to a bigger cat fight and more nonsensical jabber.


do yourself a favor and dont bother calling upon a moderator.


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## Slm643

pithy said:


> Chinese junk. Appropriate recommendation in consideration of the source.


The OP did not say he wanted to build a Jacob & Co. 

Sent from my K92 using Tapatalk


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## ironmanang

Slm643 said:


> The OP did not say he wanted to build a Jacob & Co.
> 
> Sent from my K92 using Tapatalk


Thank you!


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## Joe Horner

Valksing said:


> Please stop being rather passive-aggressive and demeaning towards others.
> We are not on your level, I get that, but please can you be happy that someone is enthusiastic enough about watchmaking that they want to get into it?


Pithy's style can be a little, shall we say, "short" with his replies but he does have a valid point on this one.

One of the big problems with Chinese movements (yes, including the "high quality" ones) is that the tolerances and finishes are poor and inconsistent. That means that they tend to be quite a bit harder than Swiss (or Japanese) stuff to assemble because parts don't quite sit how the should.

Springs that are meant to hold against a vertical edge fly (often without warning on disassembly) because the vertical edge is slanted, wheels lean too far in their jewels which makes aligning them that much harder when fitting plates, and parts like setting levers that you can grip the Swiss version of easily seem to be coated in some sort of anti-magnetic teflon fly-away coating because the edges are rounded off where they've been stamped out and left unfinished.

That's why you'll find that most, if not all, of the pros around here really don't like Chinese movements - they're just nasty to work with! From a new learner's perspective, working on a proper quality movement really is _far_ less likely to lead to frustration and, ultimately, failure than working on Chinese stuff for not a whole lot more cash in the great scheme of things.


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## ironmanang

Comparison: Sea-Gull ST2130, ETA 2824-2, Peacock SL3000 | Watch Guy

compares the ST to the ETA, sent from another WUS member. Again no sense buying this top of the line swiss movements if there is a good chance of you loosing or messing something up, at this point you just want to learn, so use the ST as a dummy movement and when you feel confident go for the ETA. I started out by disassembling then reassembling a seiko 6309 movement about a dozen times, i also did the same for the seiko 6139 and 6138. I would also suggest buying a complete parts watch on ebay and just take it apart and put it back together a bunch of times. take pictures and document the disassembly and by the third time you wont need the pics to reassemble. do this to get a feel on how to hold screws in your tweezers, choosing correct screwdrivers on screws, getting use to handling the balance assembly etc.


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## Valksing

Joe Horner said:


> Pithy's style can be a little, shall we say, "short" with his replies but he does have a valid point on this one.


I understand your point, but don't you agree there are more friendly, professional ways of saying
"Chinese junk. _*Appropriate recommendation in consideration of the source*_"

To me, that sounds like he is straight up calling either me or @ironmanang "Chinese junk", which I find unnecessarily rude and vulgar.
I thought a forum is supposed to be a place where members of the same passion come to help each other and create a big family.

In all seriousness, I'd like a moderator to lock this thread, many people have replied with informative answers and options, and the last page of this thread has been a useless cat fight.
I'd like to thank everyone for their input, I've received many new ideas and even from pithy, maybe I will buy George Daniel's 1981 book about watchmaking. :-x


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## Joe Horner

That article doesn't address any of the points i made. Those points are backed by a quarter of a century of servicing these things (note _properly_ servicing them so that they run completely in-spec, can be guaranteed, and won't be a worn out bag of shyte when they come in for the next one as opposed to shoving them out on ebay and forgetting them). Depending on what's in I can be servicing 15 or 20 movements a week to that standard.

From that hard-won real world experience (as opposed to reading somewhere online or watching a few youtube clips) I can absolutely promise you that, compared to Swiss stuff, Chinese movements are pants to work on. Unlike some I actually have very little against the Chinese stuff _for what it is_. They provide amazing value for money _but_ they are not good for learning with.

Elsewhere you've made a big thing out of recommending Dumont tweezers and Bergeon screwdriver blades. It's much the same thing. I can happily work with £3 tweezers and Anchor brand screwdriver blades without marring parts or sending them flying _because I have the experience to do so_ but someone new will find it _much_ easier to avoid damage or loss if their basic tools are decent quality.

As for risk:

You invest, say, £70 in a Chinese movement and £100 in tools. You have bits flying everywhere because of the build quality and, after a few weeks of trying, the whole thing gets given up as a bad lot. You've wasted £170.

or:

You invest £120 in a Swiss movement and £100 in tools. You lose a click spring but the rest goes remarkably well. You but a click spring for £5 and the job's good. Congratulations, you've found a new hobby and it was £175 well spent.


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## Valksing

Joe Horner said:


> That article doesn't address any of the points i made. Those points are backed by a quarter of a century of servicing these things (note _properly_ servicing them so that they run completely in-spec, can be guaranteed, and won't be a worn out bag of shyte when they come in for the next one as opposed to shoving them out on ebay and forgetting them). Depending on what's in I can be servicing 15 or 20 movements a week to that standard.
> 
> From that hard-won real world experience (as opposed to reading somewhere online or watching a few youtube clips) I can absolutely promise you that, compared to Swiss stuff, Chinese movements are pants to work on. Unlike some I actually have very little against the Chinese stuff _for what it is_. They provide amazing value for money _but_ they are not good for learning with.
> 
> Elsewhere you've made a big thing out of recommending Dumont tweezers and Bergeon screwdriver blades. It's much the same thing. I can happily work with £3 tweezers and Anchor brand screwdriver blades without marring parts or sending them flying _because I have the experience to do so_ but someone new will find it _much_ easier to avoid damage or loss if their basic tools are decent quality.
> 
> As for risk:
> 
> You invest, say, £70 in a Chinese movement and £100 in tools. You have bits flying everywhere because of the build quality and, after a few weeks of trying, the whole thing gets given up as a bad lot. You've wasted £170.
> 
> or:
> 
> You invest £120 in a Swiss movement and £100 in tools. You lose a click spring but the rest goes remarkably well. You but a click spring for £5 and the job's good. Congratulations, you've found a new hobby and it was £175 well spent.


I understand, and I have already taken your point. I never took your suggestion in vain, and I don't know why you assume I have.
I will steer clear of Chinese made movements, and will focus on Swiss or Japan made.
My idea currently is to buy perhaps a japan made Seiko 5 movement, something like the 7S26 (although I know some were made in Malaysia, I think that Seiko QC should be reliable enough), as you can buy these for around 30$ new on eBay.

My commentary was directed at you saying that pithy's style is "short", whereas I would describe it as "disrespectful".

If pithy had made your points and actually _explained_ why Chinese movements are junk, I would've respected that.


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## Joe Horner

Valksing said:


> I understand your point, but don't you agree there are more friendly, professional ways of saying
> "Chinese junk. _*Appropriate recommendation in consideration of the source*_"


Oh, undoubtedly 

Pithy is an excellent watchmaker but possibly not the greatest tutor the world's ever seen - he does tend to give the impression that his pronouncements shouldn't need any explanation beyond the fact that they came from him. For those of us who've been around for a while it's easy to let it slide because there's often valuable information in there if you can just puzzle out what it is, but can honestly see how his acerbic style might discourage anyone who meets it head on in their first few posts


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## Joe Horner

Valksing said:


> I understand, and I have already taken your point. I never took your suggestion in vain, and I don't know why you assume I have.


Apologies, that post wasn't directed at yours, it was in reply to ironmanang's one above. It took me a few minutes to type out & yours ended up in between.

eta: As for describing Pithy as "short", I avoided being more direct because I value my membership here too much to write my real opinion of some of his posts ;-)


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## Valksing

Joe Horner said:


> Apologies, that post wasn't directed at yours, it was in reply to ironmanang's one above. It took me a few minutes to type out & yours ended up in between.
> 
> eta: As for describing Pithy as "short", I avoided being more direct because I value my membership here too much to write my real opinion of some of his posts ;-)


Noted, my apologies for assuming you replied to me.


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## BillSWPA

Not claiming to have any experience, but am just someone who very briefly looked at building your own watch options. Thus, I make no claims about having the best answer. 

What I like about the Esslinger kit is that in addition to including a bunch of parts that presumably are compatible with each other, the included movement is a NH-35. I understand NH-35 to be a Seiko movement.

Components can be bought separately from a variety of sources, but plan on spending many hours selecting them and making sure they are all compatible.

I have the build your own watch toolkit from them. I have attempted one movement replacement, which did not go well, but it was not the fault of the tools. For an occasional hobbyist, they work. If I were a professional watchmaker, I would spend a lot more $ on the best.




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## pithy

The forum spirals downward with the enabler in chief.

7s26 is arguably on of the single worst selections for an initial foray into the study of watch repair. There are multiple threads documenting this.


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## Valksing

pithy said:


> The forum spirals downward with the enabler in chief.


A great dictator isn't exactly much better.



pithy said:


> 7s26 is arguably on of the single worst selections for an initial foray into the study of watch repair. There are multiple threads documenting this.


Noted.


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## pithy

If there's a potential student whose goal is the actual acquisition of knowledge as opposed to the simple assembly of a wristwatch consider working at a much larger scale where the geometry and interactions of the components of escapement might possibly be some what discernible without the aid of stop action video and a microscope.

Swiss quality begets ease of handling.

Swiss dimensional tolerances yield precise fit up.

Swiss design is the prevailing architecture in all but the most inexpensive lines.

There may be a better choice than the UT 6431/45 for primary instruction but I am yet to identify it.

They are not rare on the secondary market.

The ease of assembly is exceptional and intuitive.

Many parts are available.

Multiple online tutorials translate well to its service.


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## Valksing

pithy said:


> If there's a potential student whose goal is the actual acquisition of knowledge as opposed to the simple assembly of a wristwatch consider working at a much larger scale where the geometry and interactions of the components of escapement might possibly be some what discernible without the aid of stop action video and a microscope.
> 
> Swiss quality begets ease of handling.
> 
> Swiss dimensional tolerances yield precise fit up.
> 
> Swiss design is the prevailing architecture in all but the most inexpensive lines.
> 
> There may be a better choice than the UT 6431/45 for primary instruction but I am yet to identify it.
> 
> They are not rare on the secondary market.
> 
> The ease of assembly is exceptional and intuitive.
> 
> Many parts are available.
> 
> Multiple online tutorials translate well to its service.


Thank you!


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## ironmanang

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1960s-Mens...=item4d5765751c:g:ADgAAOSwSlBYwufs:rk:15:pf:0

old walthams use Unitas movements, they are very cheap even in working order.
here is a vintage waltham with a self winding Unitas movement thats still ticking $21.75 o/bo


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## pithy

ironmanang said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1960s-Mens...=item4d5765751c:g:ADgAAOSwSlBYwufs:rk:15:pf:0
> 
> old walthams use Unitas movements, they are very cheap even in working order.
> here is a vintage waltham with a self winding Unitas movement thats still ticking $21.75 o/bo


Unitas, huh?

What caliber?


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## Joe Horner

It's the little known Unitas 33 automatic from their Japanese branch.

Oh, hang on, no.... it's a Seiko (6601?)









eta: Looks like the good Dr Ranfft got there before me. Officially a UTC 33 in this form 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?13&ranfft&0&2uswk&UTC_33


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## ironmanang

Joe Horner said:


> It's the little known Unitas 33 automatic from their Japanese branch.
> 
> Oh, hang on, no.... it's a Seiko (6601?)
> 
> View attachment 13779063


bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Seiko 6601B

looks to be a 6601 which uses a base UT33


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## Joe Horner

ironmanang said:


> bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Seiko 6601B
> 
> looks to be a 6601 which uses a base UT33


No, it's a UTC33 which is effectively a rebranded Seiko 6601, which used the Seiko 66A manual wind as it's base.

The Unitas 33 is an 18 1/2''' manual wind pocket watch movement which is an entirely different thing.


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## pithy

ironmanang said:


> bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Seiko 6601B looks to be a 6601 which uses a base UT33


UT ≠ UTC

Unitas ≠ United Time


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## GeneJockey

Having finished up a number of 16s Elgins and Hamiltons and finding myself back in the world of wristwatch movements like the 13/0 Lord Elgin 713 currently awaiting reassembly, I concur with starting big. I already miss nickel-sized balance wheels.

"I feel naked if I am not wearing a watch - do you agree?"

If I'm not wearing a watch, I usually am.


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> Having finished up a number of 16s Elgins and Hamiltons and finding myself back in the world of wristwatch movements like the 13/0 Lord Elgin 713 currently awaiting reassembly, I concur with starting big. I already miss nickel-sized balance wheels.
> 
> "I feel naked if I am not wearing a watch - do you agree?"
> 
> If I'm not wearing a watch, I usually am.


EFB, which grade is the swiss style keyless streamline alternative?


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## GeneJockey

Real Swiss style keyless in 16s Elgins? 574, 575, and 616. Otherwise the closest is the 10s 542 series, which as you know I've endorsed previously. The Streamlines are positive setting, but as you know they don't do it the same way.


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> Real Swiss style keyless in 16s Elgins? 574, 575, and 616. Otherwise the closest is the 10s 542 series, which as you know I've endorsed previously. The Streamlines are positive setting, but as you know they don't do it the same way.


Can you post graphic representation of the 10s & 16s dial side details.


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## Valksing

I think I will go for the Unitas UT 6431/45 to learn.
It's pricey but I think it will be more valuable, also to study, than anything else.


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## pithy

Valksing said:


> I think I will go for the Unitas UT 6431/45 to learn. It's pricey but I think it will be more valuable, also to study, than anything else.
> 
> View attachment 13779239


If it's financially prohibitive the FHF caliber 2 or similar is also a solid selection.

There are other 16.5''' and larger swiss movements that would be adequate - particularly those of the post war era.


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> Can you post graphic representation of the 10s & 16s dial side details.


Haven't been able to post pictures properly since Photobucket decided not to host for free anymore. Imgur is flaky - I'll see some images post, then they'll not be there the next day.

But I did cover this previously here, about halfway down the page, comparing the keyless works on the pendant set 574 with those on the lever set 573.


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> Haven't been able to post pictures properly since Photobucket decided not to host for free anymore. Imgur is flaky - I'll see some images post, then they'll not be there the next day.
> 
> But I did cover this previously here, about halfway down the page, comparing the keyless works on the pendant set 574 with those on the lever set 573.


Care to tell their story?


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## ironmanang

Joe Horner said:


> No, it's a UTC33 which is effectively a rebranded Seiko 6601, which used the Seiko 66A manual wind as it's base.
> 
> The Unitas 33 is an 18 1/2''' manual wind pocket watch movement which is an entirely different thing.


my fault UTC. I never new seiko used UTC. I always thought seiko is one of the very few manufacturers that build their own movements in house.


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## ironmanang

GeneJockey said:


> Having finished up a number of 16s Elgins and Hamiltons and finding myself back in the world of wristwatch movements like the 13/0 Lord Elgin 713 currently awaiting reassembly, I concur with starting big. I already miss nickel-sized balance wheels.
> 
> "I feel naked if I am not wearing a watch - do you agree?"
> 
> If I'm not wearing a watch, I usually am.


HAHA! good one


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## pithy

ironmanang said:


> . . . . I never new seiko used UTC. . . . . .


?


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## ironmanang

Valksing said:


> I think I will go for the Unitas UT 6431/45 to learn.
> It's pricey but I think it will be more valuable, also to study, than anything else.
> 
> View attachment 13779239


look up the UT/ETA 6498 i mentioned before in this thread. Its 16.5 ligne size and they are available with crowns at 3, this way you can eventually make it a wrist watch. It also has the Etachron regulator which makes timing the watch a bit easier with the matching regulating tool. tool and movement is available on ofrei and the level 1 time zone coarse covers this movement.


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> Care to tell their story?


Not sure what you mean. I and others have theorized that Elgin adopted Swiss style positive setting for their pendant set pocket watch movements that were introduced after 1940, partly because they were selling all their pocket watch movements cased, as opposed to selling them as movements to be cased by the jeweler or jobber to the customer's specification. Since they were casing their own movements, they could make the stem/crown part of the movement instead of part of the case.

Can I describe how they work? Sure. Is that what you're asking?


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> . . . . Can I describe how they work? Sure. Is that what you're asking?


What ever you feel like.


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> What ever you feel like.


I feel like you have an ulterior motive.


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> I feel like you have an ulterior motive.


 lol


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> lol


Yeah, the 571, 572, and 573 are interesting because Elgin basically took the Swiss positive setting concept, and split the functions of the setting lever.

In the Swiss positive setting system the setting lever is attached to the movement via the setting lever screw, which allows the setting lever to pivot. A lug on the setting lever engages the detent slot on the stem, both to hold the stem AND to allow the setting mode to be engaged by pulling the stem up, pivoting the setting lever which depresses the clutch lever and moves the clutch from engaging the bevel pinion to engaging the minute wheel (or a setting wheel). That's how the 574, 575, and 616 all work. They were the first 16s Elgin watches with the Swiss positive setting system, though the 542 series of 10s movements used it.

The 571, 572, and 573, as I said, split the functions of that lever. There's a 'setting lever, stem locating' which has a lug that engages the detent slot on the stem and holds the stem in, but this "lever' doesn't pivot at all, just holds the stem. The actual setting lever pivots around the setting lever screw, and has an extension that engages the clutch lever much as the standard setting lever does, but instead of being moved by pulling up the stem, you pull up a lever at about 1:00 to engage setting mode.

It probably seemed - and, I guess, it IS an ingenious approach to making lever set and stem set watches with only 4 parts different between them. The thing is, both pendant set and lever set models required you to remove the stem by loosening the setting lever screw first, them pulling the stem out. There were millions and millions of American pocket watches before these, in which the stem was part of the case, and all you did to uncase the movement was to remove the case screw(s) and push it out from the back at the bottom. Do that with a 571, 572, or 573, and you'll either break the stem, or you'll break off the lug that holds the stem. That's why, if you buy one of those watches, you need to make sure the stem and the "lever" are intact. You also need to make sure whoever services it knows to remove the stem first. There are no more #6144 "levers" left in the wild.


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> Yeah, the 571, 572, and 573 are interesting because Elgin basically took the Swiss positive setting concept, and split the functions of the setting lever.
> 
> In the Swiss positive setting system the setting lever is attached to the movement via the setting lever screw, which allows the setting lever to pivot. A lug on the setting lever engages the detent slot on the stem, both to hold the stem AND to allow the setting mode to be engaged by pulling the stem up, pivoting the setting lever which depresses the clutch lever and moves the clutch from engaging the bevel pinion to engaging the minute wheel (or a setting wheel). That's how the 574, 575, and 616 all work. They were the first 16s Elgin watches with the Swiss positive setting system, though the 542 series of 10s movements used it.
> 
> The 571, 572, and 573, as I said, split the functions of that lever. There's a 'setting lever, stem locating' which has a lug that engages the detent slot on the stem and holds the stem in, but this "lever' doesn't pivot at all, just holds the stem. The actual setting lever pivots around the setting lever screw, and has an extension that engages the clutch lever much as the standard setting lever does, but instead of being moved by pulling up the stem, you pull up a lever at about 1:00 to engage setting mode.
> 
> It probably seemed - and, I guess, it IS an ingenious approach to making lever set and stem set watches with only 4 parts different between them. The thing is, both pendant set and lever set models required you to remove the stem by loosening the setting lever screw first, them pulling the stem out. There were millions and millions of American pocket watches before these, in which the stem was part of the case, and all you did to uncase the movement was to remove the case screw(s) and push it out from the back at the bottom. Do that with a 571, 572, or 573, and you'll either break the stem, or you'll break off the lug that holds the stem. That's why, if you buy one of those watches, you need to make sure the stem and the "lever" are intact. You also need to make sure whoever services it knows to remove the stem first. There are no more #6144 "levers" left in the wild.


For specific use as an initial instructional watch are there any downsides to this Elgin series?

Elgin curve overcoils?

Any condition issues to watch out for?

What are the good price points?

Do any of the other Americana have setbridge detente works?

There's the little 10s Hamilton, correct?

Any others?


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> For specific use as an initial instructional watch are there any downsides to this Elgin series?


To the 574, 575, and 616? Price. 16s American watches in gold filled cases with bold Arabic dials tend to get a lot of interest, with people inaccurately thinking of them as 'railroad watches'. The 10s 542 series are less sought after and thus cheaper, but otherwise comparable.

Oh, and you'll need big screwdrivers. 2mm and 2.5mm. And a movement holder big enough.

The micrometric regulator on the 574 adds a tiny bit of complexity, but the 575 and 616 have an open regulator.



> Elgin curve overcoils?


In pocket watch size, the hairsprings are pretty sturdy, plus these predate the 'bonded hairspring' era where the stud comes off. Each time I've put the balance complete back onto the balance cock, the hairspring stud falls right in the hole, and the hairspring itself falls right into the regulator gate. Plus, it's an alloy hairspring and a monometallic balance, which also simplifies things. It's not like the Gruen wrist watch hairsprings with their right-angle bend and overall weakness.



> Any condition issues to watch out for?


For the 571, 572, and 573, like I said, you need to make sure the 6144 "lever', often referred to as a 'detent lever' is intact, because there aren't spares. You can find replacement stems. You can't find replacement 6144 levers, as I discussed here.

For the 574, 575, and 616, they're pretty sturdy. The 575s are often heavily used, so being 15j you'll need to make sure the center wheel bushing is not ovalized.

As always, check the balance for busted pivots, and check that the hairspring looks flat and concentric and that nobody's bent the holy hell out of it.



> What are the good price points?


We are precluded by policy from discussing prices. BUT, as I said, the 542 series have most of the advantages of the 571 series mechanically, but at a lower price point.



> Do any of the other Americana have setbridge detente works?


In 16s? I don't think so, but it's worth noting that Elgins are less sought after than Hamiltons for similar watches and thus more affordable. The last American Hamilton 16s watches, the 992B and 950B are lever set, and the crown/stem are still part of the case, so not as good as the pendant set Elgins if you're concerned about figuring out positive setting keyless works.

In wristwatches, pretty much all the American made manual wind watches made after 1930 use the same keyless works system. In automatics, the Elgin 'Bumper' automatics use the standard keyless works, but the Elgin 760/761 Durabalance automatics use a whole different system, which has its advantages, and a lot of DISadvantages, as I discuss here.



> There's the little 10s Hamilton, correct?


There are several, but again, being Hamiltons, generally more expensive, even as orphaned movements, than equivalent Elgins.



> Any others?


Dunno. BTW, if you go back and look at the post which led you down this garden path, you'll note that I wasn't recommending anything, but rather agreeing with your suggestion to start with the larger Unitas movements. I simply mentioned that, as I said, I had finished up all my 16s Hamiltons and Elgins that needed work and the next one on my list was the 13/0 713 I mentioned, and I missed working with the large bits.

Up and running, BTW, but that stupid "one piece regulator" has a broken gate, like a lot of the 711 series movements these days. So, the hairspring leans against the remaining side DU and DD, but in some of the pendant positions it comes away from the pin and the rate slows a lot. Any suggestions? There's a second hole in the regulator arm that might hold a brass pin, but it's far enough away from the regulator that it'd have to be a fairly long brass pin, and bent at least twice to end up parallel with the remaining pin. Does that sound reasonable? Have you had to deal with this, and if so, how'd you do it?


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> To the 574, 575, and 616? Price. 16s American watches in gold filled cases with bold Arabic dials tend to get a lot of interest, with people inaccurately thinking of them as 'railroad watches'. The 10s 542 series are less sought after and thus cheaper, but otherwise comparable.
> 
> Oh, and you'll need big screwdrivers. 2mm and 2.5mm. And a movement holder big enough.
> 
> The micrometric regulator on the 574 adds a tiny bit of complexity, but the 575 and 616 have an open regulator.
> 
> In pocket watch size, the hairsprings are pretty sturdy, plus these predate the 'bonded hairspring' era where the stud comes off. Each time I've put the balance complete back onto the balance cock, the hairspring stud falls right in the hole, and the hairspring itself falls right into the regulator gate. Plus, it's an alloy hairspring and a monometallic balance, which also simplifies things. It's not like the Gruen wrist watch hairsprings with their right-angle bend and overall weakness.
> 
> For the 571, 572, and 573, like I said, you need to make sure the 6144 "lever', often referred to as a 'detent lever' is intact, because there aren't spares. You can find replacement stems. You can't find replacement 6144 levers, as I discussed here.
> 
> For the 574, 575, and 616, they're pretty sturdy. The 575s are often heavily used, so being 15j you'll need to make sure the center wheel bushing is not ovalized.
> 
> As always, check the balance for busted pivots, and check that the hairspring looks flat and concentric and that nobody's bent the holy hell out of it.
> 
> We are precluded by policy from discussing prices. BUT, as I said, the 542 series have most of the advantages of the 571 series mechanically, but at a lower price point.
> 
> In 16s? I don't think so, but it's worth noting that Elgins are less sought after than Hamiltons for similar watches and thus more affordable. The last American Hamilton 16s watches, the 992B and 950B are lever set, and the crown/stem are still part of the case, so not as good as the pendant set Elgins if you're concerned about figuring out positive setting keyless works.
> 
> In wristwatches, pretty much all the American made manual wind watches made after 1930 use the same keyless works system. In automatics, the Elgin 'Bumper' automatics use the standard keyless works, but the Elgin 760/761 Durabalance automatics use a whole different system, which has its advantages, and a lot of DISadvantages, as I discuss here.
> 
> There are several, but again, being Hamiltons, generally more expensive, even as orphaned movements, than equivalent Elgins.
> 
> Dunno. BTW, if you go back and look at the post which led you down this garden path, you'll note that I wasn't recommending anything, but rather agreeing with your suggestion to start with the larger Unitas movements. I simply mentioned that, as I said, I had finished up all my 16s Hamiltons and Elgins that needed work and the next one on my list was the 13/0 713 I mentioned, and I missed working with the large bits.
> 
> Up and running, BTW, but that stupid "one piece regulator" has a broken gate, like a lot of the 711 series movements these days. So, the hairspring leans against the remaining side DU and DD, but in some of the pendant positions it comes away from the pin and the rate slows a lot. Any suggestions? There's a second hole in the regulator arm that might hold a brass pin, but it's far enough away from the regulator that it'd have to be a fairly long brass pin, and bent at least twice to end up parallel with the remaining pin. Does that sound reasonable? Have you had to deal with this, and if so, how'd you do it?


I've taken the extreme measure of hand filing gates and staking them. Suggestion: Enjoy it for what it is. I've sent more than one out banking to only one side.


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> *I've taken the extreme measure of hand filing gates and staking them.* Suggestion: Enjoy it for what it is. I've sent more than one out banking to only one side.


"You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din."


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## pithy

Well GJ, there's a thread salvaged. 

So the students could seek out an Elgin grade 542 and have a movement with quite a bit of relevancy to modern wristwatches? 

What about the army manual as a starting point?

As long as it wasn't too cold do you think you could get some decent amplitude with Mobius D-5 top to bottom?


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> Well GJ, there's a thread salvaged.
> 
> So the students could seek out an Elgin grade 542 and have a movement with quite a bit of relevancy to modern wristwatches?
> 
> What about the army manual as a starting point?
> 
> As long as it wasn't too cold do you think you could get some decent amplitude with Mobius D-5 top to bottom?


1) Salvaged, or savaged?

2) 542, 543, or 546. The 543 gives you more experience dealing with cap jewels, but it's got a micrometric regulator. But I personally like it best.

3) Google TM9-1575, the PDF is free.

4) You know me, Pithy - the only Moebius product I use is 9415 on the pallet stones. But I'm not satisfied with the Nye Clock Oil I use on the mainspring and barrel arbor pivots. I note that it spreads even in the oil cup. How's D5 for spread? Also, will it last as long in the barrel as the M56b lasts on the train?


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> 1) Salvaged, or savaged?
> 
> 2) 542, 543, or 546. The 543 gives you more experience dealing with cap jewels, but it's got a micrometric regulator. But I personally like it best.
> 
> 3) Google TM9-1575, the PDF is free.
> 
> 4) You know me, Pithy - the only Moebius product I use is 9415 on the pallet stones. But I'm not satisfied with the Nye Clock Oil I use on the mainspring and barrel arbor pivots. I note that it spreads even in the oil cup. How's D5 for spread? Also, will it last as long in the barrel as the M56b lasts on the train?


It would be better if students had a robust movement with a strong impulse - and I believe these Elgins are indeed that - that would wouldn't be severely dampened by a thick oil even on the balance pivots, thereby facilitating a possible single oil purchase.

Oil, politics & religion.

https://www.flume.de/en/tools-suppl...s-for-small-and-pocket-watches-oil-elgin.html


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> It would be better if students had a robust movement with a strong impulse - and I believe these Elgins are indeed that - that would wouldn't be severely dampened by a thick oil even on the balance pivots, thereby facilitating a possible single oil purchase.
> 
> Oil, politics & religion.
> 
> https://www.flume.de/en/tools-suppl...s-for-small-and-pocket-watches-oil-elgin.html


So you're suggesting my 1950s-era bottle of M56b should be replaced? Blasphemy! Are you some kind of Communist? (there - oil, politics, and religion all in one post)


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## palletwheel

Sorry to necro this thread but I just came across this which looked really interesting:

https://www.buildyourownwatch.com/


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## WrongCentury

Sorry, old post, but I for one would be very happy to purchase my own components and perform assembly and decoration of the movements. This is how it was done before mass production, and because you cannot assemble the train, escapement, etc. without removing the pillars anyway, I think it could be much less expensive than expected. Rough cut (but proper fitting) pillars can be chosen online, along with all of the necessary wheels in custom colors or tooth styles. Jewels can be purchased separately and either installed by the factory (for an up charge) or the press can be purchased for multiple uses. Building it online first would ensure that you’ve selected all of the components which are compatible with your desired style. Shipping the components would be no more difficult than pulling the bagged parts from a bin and throwing them in the kit. Customers can even choose CNC engraving or engrave their own plates. Replacement parts would be a breeze to order, and teaching the fundamentals of watchmaking this way could restart an industry of DIYers making and selling their own “brand” of watch. Heck, the manufacturer can even offer an option to license the customer, who might pay more to have their own name engraved and the manufacturer’s left out. It wouldn’t be hard to recognize the obvious source of the components, as the basic shape can be dictated. It’s be just like Lego, but with watches. I’m willing to bet it could be done for as little as $100 USD per kit for a movement alone, and depending on the components the higher end components could be marked up for good profit.


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## chucker

so, i'm in the same boat - where do i buy a decent watch movement kit?
tx.


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