# Excelsior Park



## WatchFred

Surprisingly did not find a thread about Excelsior Park (or did not search well enough), maybe some of you will join me and show their Excelsior Park, Zenith, Girard Perregaux or Gallet chronographs, hope DragonDan will post some of his wonderful collection here.

Will not bore you with historical and technical data, there is an excellent article about Excelsior Park here: Page Modèles

Wearing and enjoying this one today, a cal. 40 Girard Perregaux.


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## Mr Rick

Always happy to have the chance to show off my G-P Olimpico.


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## artb

Gallet by Excelsior. Silver plated fine movement. 12 and 24 hour hands. settable second hand. North pointing 24 hour hand. 1950?

Shown this before nearly annually. Never much interest or comment about it. First posting I have seen labeled Excelsior Park so here it is again.
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## DragonDan

Interesting WF, I agree that there aren't any EP-specific threads. They did brand their own watches, but there were not many that I've ever seen. Here's what face-shots I have in my archives:

A EP Decimal. I also have a photo of this same watch branded with Sinn, who did use the EP movements in some of their watches.
View attachment 1024102


A white/ silver version. Rather striking!
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A slightly simpler version.
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And here's my favorite Excesior Park EP40-68









If some of you remember, this watch was a complete basket-case, resurected from the dustbin of history by Chronodeco. This is one of my favorite watches, and my most accurate Gallet!


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## DragonDan

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I've come across a couple things that kinda relate. A few weeks ago I purchased an almost complete blue-dialed EP40 movement as a fixer-upper, has Jules Racine on the two-tone blue dial. I wasn't exactly sure what to do with it, but it was very inexpensive. That was, until this showed up from a well-known purveyor of Gallet items on ebay. this is the exact same dial as before, but now with a NOS case with a blue bezel- very cool!










Backside of blue dial. I always really liked Gallet's extremely well made dials, and this may explain some of them. Wasn't Singer the dial company that made units for Rolex among others? Really nice craftsmanship.









As some know, Jules was a cousin of the Gallet's and was the sole importer in America for quite a while. Funny how some things come in three's: currently on ebay is a complete watch, apparently made for the Peruvian air force. Unfortunately the seller has it for a really high price.


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## Datreedude

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## WatchFred

@datreedude: superb; thanks for posting, do you have a movement shot ?

@DragonDan: Hijack away ! will post one of my Chronodeco-salvage pieces tomorrow, great to have him.

Here is a very recent arrival, a NOS Cal. 40, has been lying in a safe for more than 50 years, so off it goes to Craig for a COA b4 I wind and wear it.


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## Datreedude

@WatchFred, thanks, sorry , I thought my post had a shot of the movement...here ya go
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## DragonDan

Good to hear from you, Datreedude. Always fun to see that watch. And ArtB: we love ya', but I've been seeing that same photo of your watch for several years now, how about an update!!?

To continue hijacking this thread, I snapped some photos today of the EP40 that I picked up prior to seeing the blue-dialed case arrive on ebay (see above). Now I have two of those interesting Racine-signed dials. Anyone need one for a project?

I just posted these photos on the Facebook Gallet page as well (link in my signature line). This movement was made circa late 1970's, as far as I can tell right before the EP's dropped off the map. The next few watches that Gallet offered were either a Valjoux 7750 variant, or one of the newer Gxxx Gallet calibers.
I find this movement interesting because it is not plated in rhodium, and does not have the Côtes de Genève striping. Was Gallet offering different grades to try to combat the quartz watches coming out during this period? It is in good shape, but obviously needs a bunch of parts. Luckily, I have a decent stock of parts so I probably have enough to get this one back on the straight and narrow.


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## DragonDan

WatchFred said:


> Here is a very recent arrival, a NOS Cal. 40, has been lying in a safe for more than 50 years, so off it goes to Craig for a COA b4 I wind and wear it.


WF, this is a completely beautiful watch. If my knowledge of the serial numbers holds up, I'd say this was from either the very late 1940's or very early 1950's- do you agree? It's hard to tell from the very nice photos, does it have SWISS on the dial somewhere? I really like those heat-blued stick hands, when the light catches them just right, they are amazing!


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## WatchFred

Dan, do not have a list that would give me an exact correlation between Gallet and EP case numbers and production dates and found no relevant information yet, do you have access to such a list, that would be a great resource for me.

From the design specifics (hands and dial) I too would assume very late 1940s or very early 1950s; the dial shows no "Swiss made" and no indication of the US export markings on the movement, neither an import code nor the "xx Jewels" or the "unadjusted".

the gilded EP you posted above is the first I see, most probably form the 1960s ?


lovely it is.


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## DragonDan

WF; alas, I do not have such a list. Any knowledge I have of age based on serial numbers are pretty much "seat of the pants" or just an educated guess. I know Gallet was contemplating putting such a list together and making it available on their website, it hasn't happened yet.

I usually determine the age of a Gallet watch based on several factors, mainly the style/ size of the Gallet logo, style of the numerals used on the dial and details of the EP movement itself (where applicable). 

The bare EP movement that I posted on the previous page is newer than you think, at least in my estimation. I gauge this based mostly on the dial that came with that movement- which was a Jules Racine signed dial that is exactly the same as the one I received with that blue-dialed case. Racine didn't start putting "Jules Racine" on dials until the 1970's. Also, this style of case didn't come into being until the mid 1970's at earliest. My "Gallet by Racine" dialed pilot watch also has the "hands in G" logo that Gallet started using at this same time period.

Could this movement have been older stock that was put into service? Certainly, although we'd probably never find the accurate answer to that.


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## WatchFred

a Gallet Multichron 12; Excelsior Park cal. 40; assume mid/late 1950s, Dan ?


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## DragonDan

That wonderful watch with the extremely clean V72 looks to me to be early-mid 1950's. I have a watch from '53 that has the same style logo. See how it's not much bigger than the 12? Also, it was the early 50's models that had SWISS higher up on the dial than later models that placed them at the bottom, at 6 o'clock.










This style of logo came into being right at the 50's. Before that, it was a serif-style font, with 'tags' at the end of each letter, like this:

View attachment 1027713


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## WatchFred

Dan, forgive the error and confusion, the white Multichron has an Excelsior Park, that V72 belongs to the Jim Clark you know.
Need a blushing icon, mods ? Too many watches, not enough brain.

Here is the correct movement for this one:


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## Itamaraty

Hello everybody,
I've just bought this one:




























The seller told that it was working perfectly but when it arrived, the stop button does not work. Any idea of the problem?

Regards from Brasil,
Itamaraty


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## DragonDan

Hello Itamaraty*, *good to meet you! Really interesting watch, I like that not only does it not say "Park" after the Excelsior, it says Suiza in lieu of Swiss. Very unique example, I'd say middle 1940's. I base that on my earliest Gallet/ Excelsior Park with almost the exact same dial. My Multichron 45 is from 1942.










When you say the stop button does not work, does the chronograph function just keep running? Of course you know that the 2 o'clock button stops/ starts and the 4 o'clock button resets. If you look at your photo of the movement, the RH button is the reset, which acts upon the column wheel directly with the spring-loaded bar. The other button by the movement case screw is the start-stop. I'm not a watchmaker, but I'd bet there is either an issue with the spring on that button, or there is debris clogging up the action. Just based on the amount of green gunk on the back, I'd have a qualified watchmaker do a full service on that watch. Don't worry, the case is solid stainless steel, it will clean up very nicely.

~D


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## Itamaraty

Dragon,
Thank you for the informations. 
The seller was right: The chrono is working correctly; was me that didn´t know how to operate it!
This that i bought is the scond one that i see (for sale here in Brasil) with the "Excelsior" dial.
My intention is to restore the case and let the dial as it is.

Regards,

Itamaraty


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## artb

DRAGONDAN: Do not see much written about Ex Park and I have yet to learn much about their products until this thread. And still mainly here merely a display of nice ones, but certainly interesting, thus participating with only operational details of the odd compass watch. Not much to add from me; need to know more.


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## DragonDan

@ArtB, you've got WatchFred to thank for this post! Agreed, it's nice to combine some community knowledge into one place. Here's a quick run-down of what I know of EP.

First, any EP discussion should start with this excellent French website: Page Modèles

Excelsior Park got its start in 1866, specializing in chronographs. It should be well known that the EP4, EP40 and EP42 movements were used in Girrard Peregaux and Zenith watches for many years, circa 1940's, through 1960's before these companies went in-house. 
Gallet became involved with this company -to the best of my knowledge- right about 1938, due to the advertisement of the EP42 watch (shown on the above website), also known as the Gallet Multichron Commander. My oldest Gallet with an EP4 movement is from 1942 (shown above). Gallet's production line used the EP engine almost exclusively from this point to about the late 1970's, with a smattering of other calibers thrown in to meet either volume demands or price points. Gallet themselves provided funding to EP, as well as personell working directly in the EP factory. It is a bit fuzzy what happened towards the end of EP's manufacturing life, but we do know that Gallet bought out the company and all of it's machinery and stock in 1983. 
The newest EP40-68 movement I have dates from 1978 (the Gallet by Racine pilot watch I've posted earlier in this post). I have not seen any EP movements that were made in the 80's.

The movements:









EP4, 2-subdials
EP40, 3-subdials
EP42, 2-subdials, oval mainplate
EP4-68, same as above but with a movable stud feature on the balance
EP40-68, as above
They made multiple types of pocket watch calibers, but that is outside my sphere of interest.

As is known, EP sold watches under their own name, but probably didn't have much output. it appears that most of thier sales were not in North America. About the mid-late 1960's Gallet was really trying to expand their Asian market.









This ad is from the early 1940's, and shows an EP4-based wristwatch, as well as a decimal stopwatch.


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## Emre

Great thread. There were things with Excelsior Park crossing Glycine's history,the brand I am collecting. Would like to ask here maybe some more information will surface from early times:

Glycine's founder, Eugene Meylan and Henri Jeanneret activities.Henri Jeanneret is related with Excelsior Park, right? Do the dates make sense?

the announcement with related dates 1917,1918 and 1919:









1918
















and for your archives, a review of Excelsior Park Chrono from 1939:


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## DragonDan

Hi Emre,
I was hoping you'd find this thread.

During my lunch break, I came across this website, that brings a bit of information to the closing of Excelsior Park. Of course the "colleague in the region" was none other than Gallet.

Horlogerie Genevoise: Une marque du passé : Excelsior Park


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## Emre

Hello Daniel, thanks for the link followed it until the facebook fan page, great information. Will need some time to digest it though. Normal for the first ever known watch brand like ' Gallet ' to have so much information available. The Gallet in me is growing day by day, will add one collection piece for sure an EP 40 or 42 with that odd movement shape Certainly will consult you before I decide on it.

The watchmaking families are so much related with each other that surprises me, sounds like a commune from the Cantons: Meylan, LeCoultre, Golay, Piguet, Rochat, Lugrin, Reymond, Magnenat and many more. The same family names are still in Swatch Group's Board of Directors or present in the market within different brands.


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## WatchFred

Emre said:


> Hello Daniel, thanks for the link followed it until the facebook fan page, great information. Will need some time to digest it though. Normal for the first ever known watch brand like ' Gallet ' to have so much information available. The Gallet in me is growing day by day, will add one collection piece for sure an EP 40 or 42 with that odd movement shape Certainly will consult you before I decide on it.
> 
> The watchmaking families are so much related with each other that surprises me, sounds like a commune from the Cantons: Meylan, LeCoultre, Golay, Piguet, Rochat, Lugrin, Reymond, Magnenat and many more. The same family names are still in Swatch Group's Board of Directors or present in the market within different brands.


Not to forget the Favres, the Dubois, Girards, Pellatons, the Matheys and many more. The connections between the companies were manifold, intermarriage, cross-investements, licensing etc. Not to forget that all this was taking place in a very, very small area; Le Locle, St. Imier, Bienne, La Chaux de Fonds, Tramelan are almost walking distance from each other......

A collector friend from France has sent me a link to a very interesting catalog from the (most probably) early 1940s, that seems to indicate for me (speculation warning!) that Excelsior Park (or Jeanneret Brehm, they seem to continue using the JB branding on the catalog although the company had been officially renamed to Excelsior Park by then) were the true "Manufacture", not just primarily an Ebauchier as I had believed. We see most models that we knew as 1940s "Gallet" (and some we knew as Zenith) in that catalog, apparently showing the production range of Excelsior Park.

Invenitetfecit.com claims "The company Gallet & Co. will not be able to be raised of the difficulties of the First World War and will be liquidated in 1928, but not the American branch who will remain active throughout the 20th century", do we have any documents supporting this ?

Mikrolisk does show some registrations after 1928 by Gallet, interesting reading, btw.; Mikrolisk - The horological trade mark index

On the other hand, all Gallet advertisements of the 1940s I have found are from the United States, by Jules Racine & Co,, NYC; do you have other examples, Daniel ?

Another interesting detail, none of the movements in the EP-branded watches I have found carry the typical US import markings; neither an importer code nor the "xx jewels" or the "unadjusted" - all Gallet-branded pieces do; this might indicate that "Gallet" was primarily an EP-branding for the US market (HEAVY speculation warning!) ????

Daniel, I have tried to find some documentation which company filed the patent for Brevet 215450, covering the Flying Officer, no luck until now, do you happen to have that information ?










Here's the link to that very interesting catalog: Vieux papiers horlogers: Excelsior-Park

and some interesting chronographs:

model 4010 seems to be the 1942 Multichron you posted above, Daniel ?









Here's the Decimal that we have seen branded Gallet and Zenith:

















And the "Gallet Medigraph":

















The Excelsior Park "Second-corrector" we know as the Gallet Navigator and Zenith-branded:

















My EP from the opening post:









The EP ref. 4005 we knew as a Zenith:

















and finally a ref. 4215 with dial and hands that very, very closely resemble my Gallet Multichron Jim Clark:









Interesting, would love to know more.


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## Emre

WatchFred said:


> Not to forget the Favres, the Dubois, Girards, Pellatons, the Matheys and many more. The connections between the companies were manifold, intermarriage, cross-investements, licensing etc. Not to forget that all this was taking place in a very, very small area; Le Locle, St. Imier, Bienne, La Chaux de Fonds, Tramelan are almost walking distance from each other......
> 
> Daniel, I have tried to find some documentation which company filed the patent for Brevet 215450, covering the Flying Officer, no luck until now, do you happen to have that information ?.


The patent CH215450, filed in 1940, registered 1941 by Philippe Weiss with below records:























And for the records and the sake of having all EP related data in one thread:

Basel fair 1934, some participating companies and their product lines on smart chart, each number below the brand indicates the watch type from the mid -chart


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## DragonDan

This is getting good! A great compiliation we are putting together.

WF, I'll review your questions and answer this weekend. I do have a pretty good archive of Gallet/ EP documentation, I'll look it over and upload anything that looks relevant. I always smile when I see that Decimal watch, that's the one that got me started into the whole Gallet brand in the first place! I do wish they'd change the movement, as it is an EP4, not EP40. I've asked them several times.... In other Decimal news, I have a VERY unique watch that should be seeing the light of day here pretty soon...

Emre, Excellent info! I've seen the top image of the Patent drawing of the FO, but not that bottom one.

I hope he doesn't mind that I drop his name (I'll send him a link to these postings), but the French friend that WF speaks about is Jef Guzzi. I've spoken with him via email several times, he has good knowledge on this subject as well. Here's the link to a Gallet posting he did that I came across some time ago:
Chronomania - Monomaniaque...

Here is a good link to a forum where a fellow did a blow-by-blow teardown of an Excelsior Park signed EP40:
Chronographe Excelsior Park 40...huileux

You'll notice the JB on the mainplate in one of the first photos. I've seen this on some of my watches, but never understood what it meant. Here's a shot I did several months ago, this was a Decimal watch EP4 movement, purchased as incomplete for spare parts


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## WatchFred

Emre, thank you very much for that Brevet !

may become a nice thread, Daniel; agree. Talking about good threads, did u happen to follow the Martel/UG/Zenith history thread, one of the most interesting ever for me ? https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/short-history-martel-watch-co-zenith-chronographs-660565.html


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## DragonDan

> On the other hand, all Gallet advertisements of the 1940s I have found are from the United States, by Jules Racine & Co,, NYC; do you have other examples, Daniel ?



WF, I don't have much from the 1940's but will post what i think is relevant. While compiling this information, it does bring up an interesting question. I had thought that Jules Racine in New York was the only US importer for many years, from the late 1930's to about the 1070's. The below information disputes that.

1919- an advert proclaiming that Lorraine & Co. is now the sole importer for Gallet.










1939- an advert for the 4-screw clamshell case. This is most definitely a Venus 150 movement. There's a very similar watch as part of a job lot on ebay right now. This is the same Brevet 215450 case as the first-generation Flying Officer watches, without the rotating bezel. 









1948, a catalog page from Benj Allen wholesale, who obviously had purchasing rights. Maybe they had a deal with Jules Racine directly (see below)? A pretty small image, but it looks like the lower LH watches and pendant watch are both Racine.









This is the newest advertisement I have for Jules Racine, from 1964. I find it pretty impressive that Jules Racine had the same address for at least 25 years. It is interesting to read the statement at the bottom that says "sold through dealers only". That might explain the Benj and Lorraine connection.











> Another interesting detail, none of the movements in the EP-branded watches I have found carry the typical US import markings; neither an importer code nor the "xx jewels" or the "unadjusted" - all Gallet-branded pieces do; this might indicate that "Gallet" was primarily an EP-branding for the US market (HEAVY speculation warning!) ????



I do have some images in my archives that show Gallet-signed bridges and do not have JXR on the balance bridge. Not all Gallet EP movements were signed with the import marks. During the middle 1960's, Gallet was really pushing to increase their Asian connections. The silver-dialed EP40 watches were made for the Japanese market, and I've seen them with the import JXR code- I had thought that was only applied when the United States was the intended destination? Or maybe they were just using up existing stock?


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## WatchFred

Lovely info, DD !

Have found a very interesting page from a 1938 Bennett Brothers "Blue Book", showing some very early 2-button chronographs:


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## Mirius

Well I particularly like the top three which could be in Taubert cases, but not chronos. In particular I like the nurses which appears to have both a sweep second and a sub second.


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## Walterinblack

An Excelsior Park from Swedish Royal navy.
So I had the chance to get hold on some Excelsior Park watches almost 30 years ago when I still was in the Royal Swedish Navy. They are all stamped on the back with Three crownes (Tre Kronor) the national swedish symbol that we also use on our national ice hockey player shirts.
The one on the pictures is just restored and is working perfect again. It is around 65-70 years old but have been in a box the last 30 or so. It has never been polished so I think it is incredible good condition, Plexi glass had to be changed of course. The hands have a lovely blue color when watching from an angle. Restoration cost 1000USD and the watchmaker told me it was in surprisingly good shape. It runs perfect. There have been a Perlon band on it as can be seen on the markings on back case.
Some pictures for your amusement and I am considering to sell this one if the right price comes around. Thanks




http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj523/Martensson1965/IMG_0513_zps8d8d0bb5.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


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## HOROLOGIST007

Very, Very nice
And beautifully restored - Kudos to you
Adam


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## artb

INVALID ATTACHMENT SPECIFIED appears on my old laptop when numbers rather thaan photos are shown.

Logged on o.k. artb.


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## DragonDan

That's a beautiful Excelsior Park with the EP4 movement. A unique piece with the tre kronor stamp on the back! Have any photos of the movement? I must say, $1k USD seems pretty high for a restoration, what was done? Gallet themselves only charge $650, which is now $550 for a limited time.


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## WatchFred

DragonDan said:


> That's a beautiful Excelsior Park with the EP4 movement. A unique piece with the tre kronor stamp on the back! Have any photos of the movement? I must say, $1k USD seems pretty high for a restoration, what was done? Gallet themselves only charge $650, which is now $550 for a limited time.


nice and rare, but afraid the restoration included a relume that went slightly wrong ? we do not know what state the watch was jn, of course, but $1k seems high indeed.


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## HOROLOGIST007

WatchFred said:


> nice and rare, but afraid the restoration included a relume that went slightly wrong ? we do not know what state the watch was jn, of course, but $1k seems high indeed.


That is both the downside and the sad position of any re-work.
I am 100% against them - that is my personal feeling.
That said if a dial is so distressed it may warrant a re-work.
That said no Museum would agree to that.
Restoration is NEVER re-work. It is only to clean up or stop any further decline

Regards


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## Walterinblack

Thank you DragonDan. It was restored in Sweden and prices are higher there than in US so that explains the price. Aside from new glass the mainspring was corrected, new gasket and a total cleanup. (and one other thing I cannot translate)
i have one crappy picture of movement before restoration that I can provide at this time.


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## Walterinblack

WatchFred, there was no relume done and I would not have permitted that either! All three watches lookes the same and if there has been a relume it must been over 30 years ago. Can you provide some proof to me that it has been done at all? I am very curious.


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## WatchFred

sorry, I have no "proof", how should I ? But I have seen several of this specific model, both with EP and Gallet branding - as well as many other lumed arabics on quality brands, none had these rather clumsy "hand drawn" look ? no way this came off the production line of a dial manufacture.


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## Walterinblack

Ok. For the record I would like to add a "before picture". My only explanation could be that when this watch was in its naval service they where managed by the Nautical department who adjusted compasses and such and it could have been done under that period 1955-1980. Who knows? Anyway here is the before picture after 30 years in a box.


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## HOROLOGIST007

Walterinblack said:


> Ok. For the record I would like to add a "before picture". My only explanation could be that when this watch was in its naval service they where managed by the Nautical department who adjusted compasses and such and it could have been done under that period 1955-1980. Who knows? Anyway here is the before picture after 30 years in a box.


Maybe I miss something. But dials AND Hands look identical from 30 yrs ago to to-day
Really they were re-worked? - If so GREAT job. Cleaned up yes, re-worked '?'
Maybe post pics beside each other


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## JP71624

These watches are great.
I'm going to buy a lottery ticket. Brb...


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## Northernman

*Certina Excelsior Park EP40*

Hi!

Curious to know if there are others out there like this one? 
I have seen one other so far (white dial).
Not too much I know on production dates, but from the dial and movement my watchmaker guessed late 1940's to early 50's.
Diameter 37.5mm wo crown. All stainless steel. EP40 movement with shock protection. All original dial/hands. Unpolished case.









My only ExPark up to now. b-)

Kind regards,
Anders


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## DragonDan

*Re: Certina Excelsior Park EP40*

That's an interesting watch, ottesenannders. Do you happen to have a movement photo? I have not seen an ExPark used in a Certina before- definitely curious.

As to the previous question as to re-done lume on the Tre kronor watch, I am quite certain that it is original. I have Gallet's from this time period, and any lume is done by hand- maybe by a kind of syringe? It all seems pretty thick, meaning probably not done with a brush.

Have a look at this Flying Officer from 1967, the lume is definitely hand-applied.









I've wondered about this before, was the lume done at Singer, who seems to have done most of the dial work for Gallet, or in-house? I understand that maybe we weren't so picky thirty years ago about small details, but watch houses were certainly capable of excellent results. Now, people examine their watches with a 10x loupe before purchasing....


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## Northernman

*Re: Certina Excelsior Park EP40*

Hi Dan,
I do have a photo of the movement prior to servicing (before anything was done to the watch). As you can see it was quite dirty, but otherwise in very nice condition.
The watch actually sits at my watchmaker just now so I can only get better ones in a couple of weeks time.
It used to be one for sale at farfo.com (white dail version).

Certina has used several high quality chronograph movements over the years. I also own a Certina Chronolympic with a Vajoux 72 movement dating to 1969.


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## Tucayjordan

*Excelsior Park 4 Medigraph in black*

Hello. I would like to share a Excélsior Park 4 Medigraph picture (but I´m unable to upload it and I don´t understand why). It is almost identical to the Gallet Medigraph but the dial is black instead of white and the pulsetachymeter is based to 15 pulsations instead of 30. This is the only one that I have ever seen. I cannot find another example even in the booklets and catalogs of this thread. Best regards.


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## kazrich

*Re: Excelsior Park 4 Medigraph in black*

Interesting thread. I only have one watch with the EP engine. It's a Multichron 12 from the late 50's I think. 
I've only had about 6 or 7 Swiss chronographs but as a definite non - expert , the EP movement does seem exceptional.
Gallet infer that the Excelsior Park movement is ' in house '. ** Add $300 to $500 for superior Excelsior Park Movement
I don't know if Excelsior Park made the movement as well as the winding mechanism, pushers, crown etc but they do handle well. 
The resistance to the crown when pulled and turned is just right - not too tight or too loose. 
Tension of the crown when winding is just right , offering lots of warning to prevent over winding.
The movement itself has a magical light and metallic ting, ting, tingy kind of sound sometimes over laid with a secondary drum cymbal ( this can't always be heard and may have something to do with the chrono function ).
It's also very accurate .
To me the whole thing could never be mistaken for anything but pure QUALITY.
Looks like I'm not the only one 

From the information resource at the Gallet World website

" Add $300 to $500 for superior Excelsior Park movement ( Mind you Gallet valuations all seem a trifle ambitious anyway :roll: )





** Add $300 to $500 for superior Excelsior Park Movement


** Add $300 to $500 for superior Excelsior Park Movement


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## HOROLOGIST007

*Re: Excelsior Park 4 Medigraph in black*

Very, very nice watch.
Thanks for sharing and your comments
A


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## DragonDan

*Re: Excelsior Park 4 Medigraph in black*

Hi Kazrich, you've the wonderful "Jim Clark" model MultiChron 12. It's actually no older than 1968, due to the fact that that is the 40-68 caliber. Introduced in (I bet you can't guess) 1968 when EP changed to a movable stud option on the balance wheel.

that movement is in fantastic condition, the Geneva stripes look great! It also has the JXR, which is Gallet's import identifier.

Excelsior Park is considered an In-house movement mainly due to the fact that Gallet gave not only financial support but Gallet personnel to the company. Gallet purchased almost the entire production of this company, and ended up purchasing the company, its tooling and inventory in 1983.

Since the case so closely fits the caliber (no spacer rings), I think this was manufactured for Gallet and EP. Probably by one of the larger Swiss case houses, but nothing else would fit in there.

~D


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## DragonDan

*Re: Excelsior Park 4 Medigraph in black*

Here are Tucayjordan's photos of the Excelsior Park MediGraph



















*Edit, I changed it- accidentally called it a Gallet. It is, in my eyes, but probably nobody elses


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## DragonDan

On this MediGraph, if you look at the backside of one of the lugs, it has the "H" stamped. Normally this is to signify that this case is machined for the 3-subdial EP40 movement, not the EP4 with 2-subdials. 

I wonder why this has the H?


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## WatchFred

some wonderful pieces, Tucayjordan & Kazrich !

wanted to share my latest EP; a watch we have also seen as the Girrard Perregaux Olimpico; nicely finished cal. 40-68.


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## kazrich

WatchFred. Another absolute corker from your collection ! I thought that the Excelsior Park brand stopped making watches in the sixties but your watch looks early 70's ?
At least we know its post 1968 ( unless the movement was retro fitted ).
Great watch, movement and image of movement. When I pressed the + enlargement button I ducked - I thought the EP 40-68 was about to fly through the monitor :-d
DragonDan. Thanks for your informative comments re the Jim Clark. 
It just goes to show what a minefield buying old watches can be with manufacturers apparently not knowing when production ceased on their own watches.
If forums like this didn't exist old watch buying would be a very risky business ( and still is ).

Take a look at this watch.
USN 2nd Generation Flight Officer Gallet Chronograph cal Landeron 149 Serviced | eBay

This was originally advertised a couple of weeks ago as a world war 2 watch although it looks late 70's to me.
The description was amended to 2nd generation Flight Officer with no date.
The Landeron 149 movement is not mentioned on the Gallet World site and none of the watches resemble it. 
For potential buyers it's all speculation . Its been up for sale for quite a long time without a single bid - Could be that information is quite difficult to ascertain
and vendors just guess, so if it's got an EP movement it's probably just as well to call it 40- 68. Potential buyers then don't want to risk anything they are not 100 % sure of.

Richard


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## DragonDan

@ Kacrich/ Richard,
As far as I can tell, Gallet stopped using Excelsior Park movements by the late 1970's. This is the "newest" Gallet ExPark EP40-68 that I have, the MultiChron pilot. My best information puts this at 1978.










It seems after this, they switched to Valjoux or Landeron movements, up until about 2007 when they introduced (with typical Gallet fanfare) the G220 limited edition flight officer. That can be seen on their sister webpage Gallet Chronograph Watch -. Flight Officer Chronograph

As for that "2nd gen flying officer", it is not. It's just a standard Gallet pilot watch (but still nice!). All Flying/ Flight Officers have the world-timer feature of 23 or 24 cities listed on the circumference of the dial. The Landeron 149 was used in these watches from the mid 1960's. I have one of these from 1967 that can be seen in other posts I've done. I often wonder why Gallet never used the wonderful ExPark movement in their flagship model. It was always Venus, Landeron or Valjoux until 2007 when they put in their in-house caliber.

I did a paper that was submitted to Gallet's COO regarding the vaguely-defined generations. I have defined six (6) generations of this model. My 1967 FO would be considered 3rd gen. I haven't received any confirmation from them on this, but wasn't really expecting it. What knowledge I have is gleaned from many, many hours of reading and examining these watches.


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## Tucayjordan

DragonDan said:


> On this MediGraph, if you look at the backside of one of the lugs, it has the "H" stamped. Normally this is to signify that this case is machined for the 3-subdial EP40 movement, not the EP4 with 2-subdials.
> 
> I wonder why this has the H?


 *Hello D. *
*Yes, a few months ago we discover in this forum that an "**H**" stamped on a lug of an Excélsior Park case (or other brands equipped with an EP movements and cases like Gallet, Zenith, Girard Perregaux, Certina, Sinn...) should be machined with an EP 40 and not a EP 4. *
*That "* * H * *"s were stamped vertically in one lug and they were stamped in a Book Antiqua font (with "shoes" and "hat" in both vertical lines of the **H**). *
*In this Excélsior Park Medigraph there is not any "** H "**. It seems so in the picture but it is not. There are two horizontal, parallel and simple lines without anything in between. *
*I will try to post a closer picture of the aforesaid lug later (at present I´m unable as I´m unable to delete this bold type of letters...)*


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## DragonDan

Here are the photos Tucayjordan was speaking about. This is on his MediGraph



















To me, they look more like a watchmakers repair marks, than something stamped at the factory. 
Tucay, you might look at the filesize of your photos- I bet that's the reason WuS won't let you upload. They are probably too large.


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## Bockman

HI guys!

New to this game and Im actually on an excelsior park information session after looking at this on Chrono24.

Now im struggling because as previously mentions the H on the lug is for the EP40? But this Zenith example is a 2 register EP4 in the description...am I looking at a frankenwatch? Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am interested in purchasing this guy, but only if its mostly original :roll: I know high hopes.


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## Hartmut Richter

What would worry me more is that I have yet to see a Zenith chronograph - including those with Excelsior Park movements - without "Zenith" on the movement (usually the chronograph bridge).....! :think:

Hartmut Richter


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## Tucayjordan

There is no picture of the inside caseback (with Zenith engraved)... the dial and these dauphine hands in my opinion look a bit strange (this is subjetive)... the bridge hasn´t the numbers 143 or 143-6 (Zenith "translation" of the EP 4 movement)... and there are no precedents of a EP 4 in a case with an "H" (there are some EP 40-68 without "H")... This type of dial belongs to the 60´s while this type of case with flat pushers belongs more to the 40´s and 50´s...In summary, in my opinion, it is probably a "frankenwatch". Best regards.


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## HOROLOGIST007

Dial is re-worked
Movement zenith? doubt it.
looks like a Frankenstein to me - sorry
A


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## WatchFred

clearly a Frankenwatch, a pity.


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## DragonDan

It's an EP4 movement, no doubt. One made for a company other than Gallet/ GP or Zenith. That doesn't leave many! While that does look like an EP40 case (especially with the H stamping), the snap back is all wrong.

Is it just me, or do those pushers look to be at an odd angle?

Also, if you notice the lack of Incabloc - the movement is from the 40's, but that dial is almost definitely later, closer to the 60's?

If the price was right, this would make a great parts watch. Other than that, I'd steer clear. As WF said, such a pity.


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## Helioshiye

All,

Today , after long hunting , finally got the first Chronograph, and it's Excelsior Park,

on dial write: Excelsior Park PRESSES H RASKIN ANGLEUR

it's not running, could you please date it and which movement it is, what's the restoration price,

Best Regards,

Helio


























After serach on net about Angleur, http://www.pallas.be/pls/opac/opac....r, Belgique)&chna=&senu=56243&rqdb=13&dbnu=13

what I found H. Rakisn maybe Hubert Raskin, see below

Fund Presses Raskin ( Angleur , Belgium) from 1946 to 1978 . - Presses Raskin . - 3.91 M. L. (34 archive boxes )

Content: Consists mainly of documents from the personnel department, the fund covers the late sixties and seventies , a period historically very interesting because it marks the gradual transition from "golden sixties" to the crisis and the gradual decline metal manufacturing in the Liège region. Harvested archives allow to understand the various attempts implemented ( in terms of continuing education, use of temporary staff , requests for investment credits ...) to fight against the crisis. The collection also includes documents from the working group " wage comparisons " Company executives personnel services ( group Liège) that provide an overview of the situation of staff in various companies in the Liège region .
French
These records were removed in November 2005 in the former premises occupied by the Presses Raskin and should be emptied as rented to a new company . The IHOES has been advised of the existence of these archives by Anne Mertens Branch of Spatial Planning, Housing and Heritage (Walloon Region) .
Founded in Cork in 1900 by Hubert Raskin, the namesake company originally specialized in building cars ( RAL - Raskin Automobile Liège). Face competition from French , German and American automotive industry , the company is moving gradually towards the manufacture of mechanical presses and shears . She moved in 1921 to Angleur . Became a limited company in 1950 , this family business has been hit hard by the crisis of the seventies and was declared bankrupt in 1979.


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## Hartmut Richter

The movement is just the old Excelsior Park calibre Expark 4:

bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Excelsior 4

(Cal. 40 would be the 12 hgour totalizer version). I am sorry, but we don't do valuations here.

Hartmut Richter


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## Helioshiye

Richter,

I am not ask for valuations, I would like to restore it, just want to have estimation of restoration cost, I am not able to do it myself( too nice movement afraid to break it), can you recommend watch repair?

Best regards,

Helio


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## Hartmut Richter

Depending on where you are and whom you go to, the repair of a manual chronograph should not be below 200 Euros. Any less and I would doubt the quality of the service. As for exactly who to approach, any decent watch shop that also repairs (those usually sell at least some mechanical watches so don't bother going anywhere with 100% quartz in the shop window) should do it providing no parts need replacing. If they do, you need someone with good contacts since we are talking about a vintage movement for which parts are no longer made. Good luck!

Hartmut Richter


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## Helioshiye

Richter,

Thank you very much, I ma in Belgium, I will pass by the watch shop and give it try,

Best Regards,

Helio


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## Northernman

Helioshiye said:


> Richter,
> 
> Thank you very much, I ma in Belgium, I will pass by the watch shop and give it try,
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Helio


Hi! 
I am myself in Norway, however there is one watchmaker in Copenhagen that serviced my ExPark chrono some while ago. He actually even has a decent stock of spare parts for the movements.
You will find his at krognos.dk.
A piece of warning: He normally has a lot to do, so if he takes on your watch you will need to wait for quite some time to get it back. He is also not cheap, but he will bring your watch back to life!

BR


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## Helioshiye

The Excelsoir Park is back today, oil , crystal cost 145 euro.


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## georges zaslavsky

very interesting thread


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## Edge of Midnight

Not to hijack this thead but maybe of interest Excelsior Park also known as the spare parts watch. I have an Excelsior Park stopwatch. What makes it interesting is that it comes with its own spares inside. I kid you not. It has a little screw off cover on the back of the movement with a spare balace staff and screws etc inside.


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## HOROLOGIST007

Edge of Midnight said:


> Not to hijack this thead but maybe of interest Excelsior Park also known as the spare parts watch. I have an Excelsior Park stopwatch. What makes it interesting is that it comes with its own spares inside. I kid you not. It has a little screw off cover on the back of the movement with a spare balace staff and screws etc inside.


Yes this is correct.
It was a patented idea from recollection on the Racine movement made by Gallet. It had a 'J' shaped part that under held a spare.
I will try to find my full details.
I know the 'J' shaped part was the key.
Adam


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## sempervivens

DragonDan said:


> @ArtB, you've got WatchFred to thank for this post! Agreed, it's nice to combine some community knowledge into one place. Here's a quick run-down of what I know of EP.
> 
> First, any EP discussion should start with this excellent French website: Page Modèles
> 
> Excelsior Park got its start in 1866, specializing in chronographs. It should be well known that the EP4, EP40 and EP42 movements were used in Girrard Peregaux and Zenith watches for many years, circa 1940's, through 1960's before these companies went in-house.
> Gallet became involved with this company -to the best of my knowledge- right about 1938, due to the advertisement of the EP42 watch (shown on the above website), also known as the Gallet Multichron Commander. My oldest Gallet with an EP4 movement is from 1942 (shown above). Gallet's production line used the EP engine almost exclusively from this point to about the late 1970's, with a smattering of other calibers thrown in to meet either volume demands or price points. Gallet themselves provided funding to EP, as well as personell working directly in the EP factory. It is a bit fuzzy what happened towards the end of EP's manufacturing life, but we do know that Gallet bought out the company and all of it's machinery and stock in 1983.
> The newest EP40-68 movement I have dates from 1978 (the Gallet by Racine pilot watch I've posted earlier in this post). I have not seen any EP movements that were made in the 80's.
> 
> The movements:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EP4, 2-subdials
> EP40, 3-subdials
> EP42, 2-subdials, oval mainplate
> EP4-68, same as above but with a movable stud feature on the balance
> EP40-68, as above
> They made multiple types of pocket watch calibers, but that is outside my sphere of interest.
> 
> As is known, EP sold watches under their own name, but probably didn't have much output. it appears that most of thier sales were not in North America. About the mid-late 1960's Gallet was really trying to expand their Asian market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This ad is from the early 1940's, and shows an EP4-based wristwatch, as well as a decimal stopwatch.


Wonderful thread, which I had not noticed before.

I wonder if you have a date for these catalog pages? I'm particularly interested by this one:


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## WatchFred

was just enjoying your 70s El Primero thread today, sempervives.

no exact date for these Japan catalogs, but it seems to be multibrand catalog that also includes Breitling Cal.11 pieces, so probably 1969 ?

Here is another Zenith-branded Excelsior Park I haven't posted yet - claimed to be a Yugoslavia Airforce issue from the mid 1960s, same watch appears above as an EP


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## laikrodukas

omg, please more photos of the Zenith


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> was just enjoying your 70s El Primero thread today, sempervives.
> 
> no exact date for these Japan catalogs, but it seems to be multibrand catalog that also includes Breitling Cal.11 pieces, so probably 1969 ?
> 
> Here is another Zenith-branded Excelsior Park I haven't posted yet - claimed to be a Yugoslavia Airforce issue from the mid 1960s, same watch appears above as an EP


Thanks WatchFred!

The Japanese catalog probably dates to a couple of years later (after 1969) then. The similar Japanese Zenith catalog is dated 1972, although it features the first Zenith El Primero's (made in 1969). That makes sense, because it took some time for these watches to arrive in Japan and the same catalog contains models that were only made in 1970/71.

It seems that the Excelsior Park chronograph ref. 5415 has a seconds hand that was inspired by the Zenith El Primero seconds hand, and to make sure, I inquired about the date of the catalog. Interesting that at the same time Excelsior Park still offered a 1950's style Pilot's chronograph. That 1950s Zenith Pilot is wonderful, isn't it?

Here are my Zenith Excelsior Park chronographs...









vintage Zenith military Pilot chronograph (ca. 1954)

And its sister watch 

















(on a 1956 catalog page)


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## HOROLOGIST007

Here you go - an original dial
Gallet 1936 1956 Black Multichron 30 Clamshell Dial New Old Stock | eBay


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> @datreedude: superb; thanks for posting, do you have a movement shot ?
> 
> @DragonDan: Hijack away ! will post one of my Chronodeco-salvage pieces tomorrow, great to have him.
> 
> Here is a very recent arrival, a NOS Cal. 40, has been lying in a safe for more than 50 years, so off it goes to Craig for a COA b4 I wind and wear it.


here is a ca. 1953 Zenith catalog detail with a similar dial:


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## WatchFred

resurrecting another older thread; new purchase now at the watchmaker's.

no shock protection, different logo, would love to have lists to correctly date EP, but assume one of the earliest seen.

can't wait to see that glorious dial when the yellowed and cracked crystal is removed


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## sempervivens

Congratulations, looks great. Late 1940's would be my guess.


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## jackruff

I would guess early 40's if not shock protected...Same era as your other EP (the mint/nos) example you have WatchFred...Both very very nice....


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## cellar

*Excelsior Park Fournitures from La Classification Horlogere 1939*

I have the three volume set of La Classification Horlogere, 1936, 1939 and 1949 but is only shown in the 1939 edition. Excelsior_Park-La_Classification_Horlogere_1939 Cheers from the cellar


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## cellar

Also see this 1972 Japanese catalogue; EXCELSIOR PARK Cheers from the cellar


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## sempervivens

EP chronographs were still made without shock protection in the early 1950's as well, so the lack of shock protection is not a certain indication to date it.

The Excelsior Park 4(0) movement was only created c. early 1940s. 

They didn't right away make 'm in this style.

This "Pilot" version is IMHO typical of a period when Pilot's watches became popular: around or after 1947 (when the first plane broke the sound barrier).

The style is very similar to the later Zenith military Pilot chronographs, which were made about 1954/55; but those Zeniths are an updated version, they are bigger, use round pushers, and have shock protection.

So this is definitely a little earlier...but not ten years earlier... therefore late 1940's... I rest my case.


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## jackruff

"Resting ones case" usually has accompanying proof/evidence....


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## WatchFred

well, there are several similar early "pilot's watches" we CAN date - and they first appeared in the very late 1930s or very early 1940s


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## jackruff

My summation is based on research/reading over the years and memory... no real evidence...!!! So is there any defining evidence of manufacture date of the EP4 and it's evolution....??? What do you think is the circa of the aforementioned Zenith?? I have a unmarked/unsigned non shock protected EP4 (Gallet/EP) that is exactly the same as the 1953 catalog Zenith (and many similar Gallet) a few posts back ....I would assume by '53 they had introduced shock protection considering that incabloc was approaching close to 20 years of patent...Hence the characteristics of the model were consistent for many years but minor changes in the movement i.e shock protection....making circa difficult to establish other than by movement advancement...


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## sempervivens

Of course I agree that Excelsior Park watches are very difficult to date because of the lack of catalogs hence the lack of proof. We do know - I think - that the cal 4 was only introduced in the early 1940s, so late 1930s are out. Incabloc or the lack of it may be an indication for a period, but problem is that until about 1955 many watches continued without. For instance I could show you a gold Zenith Excelsior Park chronograph from about 1953 without incabloc. The best proof or the only proof I have seen so far for the date of Excelsior watches are the Zenith catalogs from the early 1950s. I have excerpts of Zenith catalogs for 1951, 1952, 1953, and 1956. In this period Zenith used the Excelsior Park chronographs. A remarkable one is that which I posted earlier, from the 1953 catalog, which has the dial with the beautiful numbers, a typical Excelsior Park dial. I saw Jackruff's watch with similar dial which he thinks dates to early 1940s, when the EP movement came out. Based on the Zenith catalog, I would suspect it dates to the same period as the Zenith, but that may be too easy, I admit it is not certain. Zenith may have used a dial which Excelsior already used in the 1940's. I guess until we see Excelsior catalogs for the 1940s and 1950s, we will not be certain.
As for dating the Zeniths, there are not only the Zenith catalogs, but also Zenith case numbers were used. For instance the military pilot Zenith: it's not to be found in any catalog, but the Zenith case numbers date it to c. 1954/55. Now if there are similar early Pilot's watches which can be dated to the early 1940s, I would be interested to see them anyway.


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## WatchFred

we'll never really know, but my gut feeling tells me the watch I've posted is early - note the different logo (remember these were the years dial branding appeared) from later versions, hands are different too. we also have no firms dates for the appearance of the EP4/EP40, besides "it came a bit later than the 1938 EP42 ?

re the "no catalogs" - assume you have seen the link I had posted in this thread ? shows most of the Girard, Gallet & Zenith of the period 
Vieux papiers horlogers: Excelsior-Park

model ref. seems to be 4005 "avec cadran simple Radium":









"similar early Pilot's chronographs":

here's the 1939 advertisement for the Breitling ref. 734:









and the watches, ref. 734 & the WP ref. 765, serial numbers date them between 1939 and 1940:


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> we'll never really know, but my gut feeling tells me the watch I've posted is early - note the different logo (remember these were the years dial branding appeared) from later versions, hands are different too. we also have no firms dates for the appearance of the EP4/EP40, besides "it came a bit later than the 1938 EP42 ?
> 
> re the "no catalogs" - assume you have seen the link I had posted in this thread ? shows most of the Girard, Gallet & Zenith of the period
> Vieux papiers horlogers: Excelsior-Park
> 
> model ref. seems to be 4005 "avec cadran simple Radium":
> 
> "similar early Pilot's chronographs":
> 
> here's the 1939 advertisement for the Breitling ref. 734:
> 
> and the watches, ref. 734 & the WP ref. 765, serial numbers date them between 1939 and 1940:


For the black Pilot: that Breitling is nice. I assume it has a Valjoux 72.

So we can conclude that this black dial style with radium numerals already existed in 1940.

Only the hands were completely different.

But the same dial style was still used in 1955, as we can see from the Zeniths.

That leaves a huge time span of c. 15 years.

We are interested here in dating the later versions with Excelsior Park cal. 4 (with or without shock protection).

But we don't even know exactly when Excelsior Park cal. 4 was created.

The little information available, seems limited to the invenit & fecit page here : but that page does contain some serious mistakes, so we must be careful with the information there.

To begin with he says that the cal 42 was created in 1938. And then he shows this advertisement and says it dates to 1938:









I find this looks more like an advertisement that was made _during _the war, in the middle of the war, not before WW II even started. What do you guys think? So I would date this advertisement some years later: maybe 1942. And this advertisement is for Excelsior Park cal. 42: the cal. 4 , we are told, followed "a few years later".

So when exactly was Excelsior Park cal 4 created? We don't know. It could be 1942, it could be 1943, it could be 1944, it could even be 1945.

All we know for certain is that the main Excelsior Park calibres existed in the late 1940s (1949): the above mentioned page 'invenit' shows a catalog with movements and dates it to *1949*.

Also, Vieux papiers horlogers: Excelsior-Park shows the same movements and dates this catalog to '*1950s*'.

This 1950's catalog shows a wide range of chronographs, many of which however look like they could date to the 1940s (going by the dial style).

To sum it up: the first known dated Excelsior Park catalogs with cal 4 chronographs are said to date to *1949 *and '*1950s*'.

From the second catalog we can see that there was a wide range of Excelsior chronographs with cal 4, many of which have dials that look like they were created in the 1940s. Only problem is: the catalog itself is dated '1950s'.

Zenith also mainly used the Excelsior Park chronographs in the first half of the *1950s*.

The first known Zenith catalog with a cal 4 chronograph, dates to c. 1951 and the last I know of dates to c. 1956.

It is possible that Zenith produced some Excelsior Park chronographs in the late 1940s as well. But in the early and mid 1940s Zenith still used the Martel watch co chronographs.

For the Zeniths, the case numbers can give a clear indication when they were made.

Apart from that, we have only the style of the hands, the dial, and the absence or presence of shock protection, to go by.

Conclusion: I don't see any proof that Excelsior Park cal 4 existed before 1944. The first proof is dated 1949. Therefore I would date the majority of Excelsior Parks without shock protection to the second half of the 1940s; and the majority of those with shock protection to the 1950s (or later). However note that some E.P. chronographs were still produced without shock protection in the early 1950s. The style of the hands can also help to differentiate between the late 1940s and early 1950s.


----------



## WatchFred

@ sempervivens: Breitlings are Venus 178


----------



## sempervivens

So Venus 178 existed as early as 1939? I didn't know that. I remember that Valjoux 72 was presented in 1938 and that it was the second wristwatch chronograph with hour counter (after Martel watch co c. 1936 created the Universal Contax).


----------



## guilhermebauer

Please, Anyone has any information about that Excelsior park that I have?

Thanks.


----------



## sempervivens

Looks like a ref. 504 as seen in the 1950's catalog, where it is called "tachymetre chronograph" :
View attachment 2746433


----------



## WatchFred

sempervivens, yes it did exist, just like the Valjoux 71 existed since iirc 1914 or 1915, with hour counter, my oldest R71 two pusher is from 1937.


----------



## sempervivens

Yes, Valjoux 71, apparently it was not considered a wristwatch chronograph. I suppose it originated as a pocket watch movement and was later adapted. I wonder if your Vj 71 from 1937 has the hour counter?

I've just found proof that Excelsior Park cal 42 existed in *1939*:a newspaper article posted by Emre in this thread here; but no early proof yet of the existence of E.P. cal. 4. I suspect cal 4 was presented in 1942, as that date is often mentioned, but I'd love to see some proof.

The oldest advertisement with cal 4 watches I see so far dates to *1948*, posted here by DragonDan.


----------



## WatchFred

as we are sidestepping like crazy here, it's a pilot's chronograph too (here's something more to research, as far as I know the first w/ a turning 12h bezel), Jardur Bezelmeter, R71










avaiable in black too, early 1940s, R72.


----------



## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


>


Some more thoughts: I think we should pay more attention to the Excelsior Park case numbers, which can be found inside the case back. We should make a list.

The above number 903220, I think dates this watch to c. 1954 (give or take a year).

That is based on comparison with my Zeniths, which have similar Excelsior Park case numbers, and on the outside a Zenith case number (which helps to date it).

I think Excelsior Park had many of us fooled by their 1940 dial styles, whereas most of their chronographs were actually produced in the 1950's.

Note also that the 1950's Excelsior Park catalog does not mention anything about incabloc! If it was featured, they would have mentioned it: the catalog does mention that the movements are anti-magnetic and have glucydur balance wheels. The designs also don't show the use of incabloc. So all of these Excelsior Park chronographs which you thought dated to the 1940's, because they don't have incabloc: they may very well date to the early 1950's instead.

And if you pay attention to the balance wheel, the glucydur balance wheels also betray that they belong to the early 1950's rather than the early 1940's.

@ WatchFred, do all your Excelsior Parks have case numbers? Does your latest 'Pilot' Excelsior Park have a case number?


----------



## DragonDan

It would probably be safe to say a dated catalog can be held as proof that the watch pictured cannot be any newer than the date, but it can be older.

I have gone by the research I have done (just like you folks: catalog pages and photos that we can date), the EP42 seems to have been brought about in the very late 1930's. 1939 seems as fine a date as I can track down.

There is one more bit of hyperbolic data that I can add, in a bit.

I'm not exactly sure which of these are my oldest Gallet's-
This one, which I've contributed to 1942. I've since replaced the dial with a NOS model, but felt it best to show it as originally received. 









or this EP42, which is probably slightly newer than the EP4 above.









In the MultiChron 45 EP4 above, I have always held that because the Arabic numeral "4" is rounded and "broken" and that the "7" is "squiggly", it is older. My other indicator is the style of the Gallet logo. See how the EP4's logo is very thin and a sans serif font. The EP42 logo is very similar, but the Arabic numerals are quite different. A different dialmaker? I do know they used Singer for models starting about the late 50's, but don't know who did them earlier. Possibly in-house, but we may never know for certain. This catalog from 1950 does show this broken 4 and squiggly 7. Were they continuing to produce this dial, or reusing existing stock?









Previous logos, where the movement was more like a Venus 188 or similar, the logos were of a serif font. These to me were late 1930's. This is a dial macro that I did of a piece that Dancetimetoo from ebay sent me to photograph. It's a Flying Officer, V150, 1st Gen model. That would put it at no newer than 1940.










Now look at this dial. This is my Grandfathers' Decimal.









I really wish I had taken some better photos before sending it off to Gallet for a full restoration. Again, it's best to show the dial as it was in the most original condition. See how the Gallet wording is sans serif, very thin - but the interesting part is that it is barely wider than the"12" at the top of the dial. Is this an older logo, introduced right after the serif logo of the flying officer above? If so, why go from such a nice bold serif logo to one that gets lost on the dial?
The main reason I bring this up is that my Grandfather worked in the WWII period as a government subcontractor building sights for bombers. He used this watch in his engineering job, which was specifically the optics division. I wish I knew the dates better, but I feel certain that he had this watch during WWII. This means the EP4 was around prior to 1945. He would have needed this chronograph for the precision needed for manufacturing. Right after the war, he worked for a company that built projector devices until his retirement in the 60's. A bomber sighting device is certainly a more precision device than a lecture hall projector.

Here's the caliber









It is very interesting, the thought about EP calibers not having incabloc protection into the 1950's. It would be grand to see if we can find supporting evidence. Alas, catalogs with EP calibers are pretty scarce. Gallet used the incabloc technology in 1939 on one variant of the flying officer with the V150, so they obviously knew they existed. I've got a photo of this watch somewhere.

The other thought about trying to trace down a timeline by using the serial numbers either on the back (either outside or inside) is another good idea. I have tons and tons of photos of Gallet watches, I could probably pull dozens of photos of these serial numbers. It would almost certainly need to be a group effort, or at least someone post something and it be verified as best it can be on a watch forum post. I think it would be necessary to post only those that have 1. the serial number 2. the full movement shot and 3. the dial face. That way we can weed out the 'sure things' and the 'unknowns or possibles'.

Regret #2 with my Grandfathers' decimal, I did not write down the serial number of the watch. This is the only image I have of it. It was a dome-shaped snap back. It was replaced at Gallet with the step-dome snap back of a different serial number. I do know it started with an 8xxxx though.


----------



## cellar

Your chronograph looks identical to the one in the link I posted on page 9 of this thread, the specific image is shown here;







Cheers from the cellar


----------



## WatchFred

well, as Gallet was an investor in Excelsior Park and their most important client, I though I'd ask them about the launch date for the calibers EP4 and EP40 and the use of Incabloc.

the reply was much quicker than I had hoped for and, I must admit, very much in line with what I had assumed.










this is the official fb account of Gallet, btw.
I rest my case 

this does not say that all EP movements came with Incabloc shock protection from then on, of course, Zenith might have decided to continue without them or might have been using up old stock ?


----------



## sempervivens

@ WatchFred

Most Zeniths with Excelsior Park calibres have incabloc. Maybe Zenith specially requested incabloc.

I'm sorry to say but the opinion on Facebook of the present Gallet company has very little meaning if it is not sustained by any documents.

These companies don't know their own history all that well. I would compare this with the 'fact sheet' on the Universal Genève website. It contains several mistakes and the dates given are not accurate.

The oldest proof for a Gallet cal. 42 is in the newspaper article dated 1939, which refers to a model shown at an exposition in Zürich.

In the 1939 Excelsior Park catalogue, the calibre 42 is not yet shown.

The first advertisement for a cal 42 watch, seems to date to the first half of the 1940s: maybe 1942, since it shows soldiers and speaks of wartime.

I conclude from this that the first cal. 42 watch was shown to the public in 1939 and became available for sale to the public a few years later, c. 1942, during the second World War.

Next we know is that the cal. 4 arrived 'a few years later' that is _after _cal. 42. A few years after 1939, means: maybe 1942, maybe 1943/44.

The oldest proof of an advertisement that looks like cal. 4 and cal 40 watches, dates to 1948.

The oldest catalog that shows cal. 4 watches dates to 1949/50.

All this means that it is completely out of the question that EP 4 and EP 40 calibres would have equipped Gallet watches as early as 1938.

@ DragonDan

You go by the logo and the dial style, but this is very tricky. We see the 'coathanger' number seven on dials in the 1950 Excelsior Park catalog and in the 1953 Zenith catalog.
I see the thin Gallet logo without serifs in a watch from c. 1955. I think we agree here.

Still I say we should pay more attention to the case numbers. Does your EP 42 have a case number? And your MultiChron 45 EP4?

@ all

Excelsior Park stopwatches / pocket watches are a good example of the problem in dating E.P. watches. They show how Excelsior Park continued using the same dials during the decades.
E.g. the pocket watch chronograph shown above has a multicolored dial style that goes back to the 1920's. The movement for this was created in 1929 (according to invenit & fecit). 
We see exactly the same pocket-watch chronograph in the 1939 catalog and in the 1950 catalog. 
If you look at the 1972 catalog, that pocket watch is not shown any more, but other stopwatches look the same as they did in 1939 or 1950. 
For the stopwatches Excelsior Park never even introduced incabloc, so it seems they kept making the same stopwatches for 40 years.


----------



## WatchFred

how do we "know ....that the cal. 4 arrived 'a few years later" ? A reference on Joel's site is all I've seen ?
do we have further proof about the EP catalog dating to "1950" besides the claim on that site ?


----------



## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> how do we "know ....that the cal. 4 arrived 'a few years later" ? A reference on Joel's site is all I've seen ?
> do we have further proof about the EP catalog dating to "1950" besides the claim on that site ?


Yes, I say "we know" because the page of Invenit & fecit is a main source of information, and he says "_A few years later appeared a more traditional version, round, of this movement, baptized calibre 4 and one version with hours counter of calibre 4, under denomination 40_."

It does seem logical that cal 42 was created first and that cal. 4 and cal. 40 followed later as an improvement of the original cal 42.

Note also that we don't know when cal. 42 got its denomination: "_The movement will be initially called simply 12/13 then it will be baptized calibre 42._ "

It may be that it was created in 1938 (maybe a patent request was filed in 1938). It appears it was first presented to the public at a national exposition in 1939.

Apparently it was only baptized 'cal 42' some years later: maybe c. 1942, when it became more widely for sale.

Maybe by 1942 the successor cal 4 was also created: that would be my guess.

The best proof for an early existence of cal 4, might be finding the patents. For instance the patent for the famous chronograph with the extra orientation hand and device for stopping the seconds: that could prove that cal 4 also existed, because cal 4 is the basis for this watch.


----------



## sempervivens

1. swiss patent n° 207380 that was filed 9th August 1938, registered 31st October 1939, and published 1st February 1940: shows the characteristic bridge shape and thus confirms the birth in 1938/39 of the 12''' movement that will later be named JB cal 42.









This 1939 newspaper article confirms that Excelsior Park had succeeded in creating a 12''' wristwatch chronograph of superior quality, and that it could be admired at the 1939 Swiss national exposition in Zürich (an illustration is also given in the article itself):









It is clear that this was still an early phase: production at a commercial scale probably started soon after this presentation. The first watches were possibly for sale by the end of 1939, thus coinciding with the start of WW II.

This advertisement confirms that the "_New Excelsior Park 12''' wristwatch chronograph_" was for sale during the war (WW II = 1939-45):









2. During WW II a swiss patent n° 235072 was filed on 23rd February 1943, registered 15th November 1944, and published 16th February 1945 for a device that allows to separately set the seconds on a chronograph.









This device also suggests the existence in 1943 of JB cal. 4, since it was cal. 4 that was used as a base for the chronograph with the "seconds-corrector".

This is so far the oldest known advertisement for cal. 4 and cal. 40 watches, dated 1948; it's only a small advertisement and for that reason it is not even sure whether the movements used here by Gallet were effectively supplied by Excelsior Park (the calendar chronograph for instance was clearly not made by Excelsior Park):









This Excelsior Park 1949 technical sheet shows the three movements for wristwatch chronographs that were available (JB cal 4, 40 and 42):









Finally, a few pages from the first known Excelsior Park catalog (1950) that features the cal. 4 and 40 watches.

Interestingly the catalog opens with an illustration of gold chronographs with colourful dials that seem to belong to the late 1940's:









The next page shows the movements JB cal 42 and cal 4 (it also mentions that the 14''' cal. 4 could be equipped with an hour-counter or a seconds-corrector) together with a rich array of possible dials:









This page shows some examples of chronographs with JB cal 40 as well as the cal 4 chronograph with seconds-corrector and orientation-device:









As you can see in the 1950 catalog, the movements by now have glucydur balance wheels and are antimagnetic, however incabloc shock protection is not yet provided.

This will change soon afterwards: already in the early 1950's many Excelsior Park chronographs are equipped with incabloc, and from ca. 1955 onwards all had incabloc.

Credit for posting the WW II advertisement and the 1949 technical sheet goes to invenit & fecit, for the 1939 newspaper article to Emre who posted that here, for the 1948 advertisement to DragonDan who posted that here, for the 1950 Excelsior Park catalog to Vieux papiers horlogers: Excelsior-Park and last but not least for the Excelsior Park patents to Nicola1960, who posted those here


----------



## DragonDan

Thank you SV, I did not have that brevetto from 1938 showing the distinctive bridge.

I had purchased this catalog page sometime last year, and kinda forgot I had it. I'm at the office, so I only have the screenshot of the sale, but I can scan the page later at full resolution. The seller says this Bennett Brothers, Inc. catalog is from 1939.









I could be wrong, but it really looks like an EP4-based chrono on the bottom left.


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## WatchFred

sempervivens, all valid points - just bear in mind that, with the greatest respect for Joel's outstanding work with his articles on invenitetfecit, he errrs like all of us, his Breitling Chronomat article contains several errors or misconceptions, especially in his dial dating attempts.


----------



## Emre

Always enjoy these topics and especially this particular watchmaking dynasty.Here are some more material for your archives gentlemen:









And there is a patent for the bezel of these timepieces for Jeanneret-Brehm: CH207550









Edit/Add: One more ad


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## DragonDan

Some excellent additions by you folks


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## sempervivens

DragonDan said:


> Thank you SV, I did not have that brevetto from 1938 showing the distinctive bridge.
> 
> I had purchased this catalog page sometime last year, and kinda forgot I had it. I'm at the office, so I only have the screenshot of the sale, but I can scan the page later at full resolution. The seller says this Bennett Brothers, Inc. catalog is from 1939.
> 
> View attachment 2758610
> 
> 
> I could be wrong, but it really looks like an EP4-based chrono on the bottom left.


It looks a bit like an EP4-chronograph, because of the common dial style. I very much doubt it is an Excelsior Park cal 4 for several reasons:
- the ad says the same chronograph can be had in a single button version; but the Excelsior Park cal. 42 / cal 4 was a double button chronograph from the start and was never made as a single button chronograph
- in the beginning in 1939/1940 only cal 42 was available and cal 4 arrived only a few years later (ca. 1942)
- it would be next to impossible for a watch that had barely been presented to the public at a national exposition in Switzerland in 1939, to be already available for sale and featured in a catalog in the U.S. that same year; 
- the combination of dial, case and hands does not look like the first two Excelsior Park chronographs with cal 42, shown in the post by Emre; even the one with the simpler dial has different hands;
- I would presume it has the same movement as the black dial on the right, and that mentions it has a 30 minute register, whereas cal 42 /cal 4 has a 45 minute register
- position of the Gallet logo on the dial is unlike any Gallet chronograph seen with Excelsior Park movement



WatchFred said:


> sempervivens, all valid points - just bear in mind that, with the greatest respect for Joel's outstanding work with his articles on invenitetfecit, he errrs like all of us, his Breitling Chronomat article contains several errors or misconceptions, especially in his dial dating attempts.


I agree there are some mistakes on that page; I took care not to copy them. I've basically only used the advertisement he shows for the cal 42 watch and instead of the 1938 date attributed to that I've dated it "during WW II" which I think is a more logical assumption. He also shows a Zenith advertisement for chronographs with two pushers and dates that to 1938 as well, to make it coincide with the supposed launch of EP cal 42. He thought Zenith in 1938 already started using the Excelsior park calibre; but that advertisement is a bit older than 1938 and those 1930's Zenith chronographs most certainly do not use the Excelsior park movement, but the earlier Martel Watch (Universal Genève) chronograph movement with two pushers. He then goes on to say that Zenith remained faithful to Excelsior Park chronograph movements for nearly 30 years. In reality Zenith started using the Excelsior Park movement only ca. 1949 and used it until ca. 1958. Before and after that Zenith used the Martel watch chronograph movement for wristwatch chronographs with two pushers.

I also don't go along with the general mistake on the internet that cal. 4 and 40 chronographs were easily available from 1942, let alone from 1938 onwards. I think the launch of the Excelsior Park cal 4 movement has been thwarted by the second world-war. The E.P. chronographs with cal. 42 were available from 1939/1940 onwards, but E.P. cal 4 and 40 may have been available for sale only after the end of WW II. The bulk of the cal. 4 / 40 chronographs certainly seems to date to the late 1940's and the 1950's.



Emre said:


> Always enjoy these topics and especially this particular watchmaking dynasty.Here are some more material for your archives gentlemen:
> 
> View attachment 2759402
> 
> 
> And there is a patent for the bezel of these timepieces for Jeanneret-Brehm: CH207550
> 
> View attachment 2759410
> 
> 
> Edit/Add: One more ad
> 
> View attachment 2759530


Those are some wonderful additions. We can see here the first two models with cal. 42 (12 ''' chronograph), available from 1939/1940 onwards: one shown in the 1939 article referring again to the Swiss national exposition in 1939, and the other model in a 1940 dated Excelsior Park advertisement: magical.


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## DragonDan

Okay, it looks like that 1939 EP4 guess was wrong. Bottom right image from this 1940 catalog page (I don't know which one) shows what looks like the same case/ design. It says it holds a 13 ligne movement. We know the J-B/ EP calibers are 14 Ligne









This is from an EP4 of mine - in my spare parts bin.


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## DragonDan

Actually, that may read 12"'. Such a crummy copy, hard to tell. 

Im not concerned about the placement of the Gallet logo. If you notice on those other 1938 regulator watches (Venus 140, usually), the logo is below the center pinion. While a quick look through my archives do not show any physical evidence of a "low logo", maybe it was done as a continuity of design for the catalog.

Any idea what the possible movement would be in this one? My first thought was a V188, but those are 14"' as well, according to Dr. Ranfft.


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## WatchFred

assume Venus 150 ?
not too many alternatives around, 188 was a lot later (late 1940s)


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## Northernman

WatchFred said:


> well, as Gallet was an investor in Excelsior Park and their most important client, I though I'd ask them about the launch date for the calibers EP4 and EP40 and the use of Incabloc.
> 
> the reply was much quicker than I had hoped for and, I must admit, very much in line with what I had assumed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is the official fb account of Gallet, btw.
> I rest my case
> 
> this does not say that all EP movements came with Incabloc shock protection from then on, of course, Zenith might have decided to continue without them or might have been using up old stock ?


The EP4/40 chronographs was used by the Danish Navy back in the days. I had the chance to talk to a watchmaker that serviced EP watches for the Navy back in the early 70s. He claimed to date my EP to early 1950s based on the present of a shock protection system. According to him, and he did service a few, the division was about late 1940s for with and without this feature.
He also told me how they were ordered to destroy several dozens of nice watches, both EP and Heuers. They simply used a big vice to crush them since the watches was listed as "restricted military items" and could by order not be resold to the public o|....


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> Dan, forgive the error and confusion, the white Multichron has an Excelsior Park, that V72 belongs to the Jim Clark you know.
> Need a blushing icon, mods ? Too many watches, not enough brain.
> 
> Here is the correct movement for this one:


Is this a cal 40 or cal 40-68 ?


----------



## sempervivens

DragonDan said:


> Okay, it looks like that 1939 EP4 guess was wrong. Bottom right image from this 1940 catalog page (I don't know which one) shows what looks like the same case/ design. It says it holds a 13 ligne movement. We know the J-B/ EP calibers are 14 Ligne
> 
> This is from an EP4 of mine - in my spare parts bin.


Cal 42 is both 12 ''' and 13 ''' (it is 12''' x 13'''). So a 13 ''' movement could be a JB cal 42. But that black chronograph looks to be the same as the one in the 1939 catalog page which you showed before. There it also mentions that it has a 30 minute register. I think it is a Venus 150 (same movement as in the 1939 Flight Officer.)


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## DragonDan

sempervivens said:


> Is this a cal 40 or cal 40-68 ?


This one is easy to spot. All EP4-68 and EP40-68 have that number stamped on the base plate. The difference is a movable stud on the balance assembly, however I'm not enough of a watchmaker to visually spot the difference.

This is the multichron pilot of mine, a "pre" shot before it was shipped up to Chronodeco.


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said it is a cal 40, but it looks to me that WatchFred's Multichron has a stud on the balance, and the case number is close to other cal 40-68 watches ...


Dan, I think you said somewhere that the 40-68 watches were introduced in 1968: where did you find that information? 

WatchFred's Multichron looks more like 1958 to me.


----------



## WatchFred

base plate clearly is not marked 40-68, Sempervivens.

was planning to prepare a complete pic set of dial/movement/serial for Daniel's new thread, but have to take some more pics for that which clearly show the case serial, so just a quick list; I've added some Girard Perregaux to add to the confusion, as some seem to carry similar case numbers, some not 

the black dial piece is currently in transit, so no caseback pics of this one for now, sorry.

EP-branded, EP40, non-Incabloc, case 903xxx

















Gallet. EP40, Incabloc, case 943xxx

















Girard Perregaux, EP4, Incabloc, no case serial

















Girard Perregaux, EP40, Incabloc, case 944xxx - CLAIMED to be 1956 (GP has no records, tried)

















EP-branded, EP40-68, Incabloc, case 959xxx - the GP Olimpico version is confirmed to be 1968

















Daniel, can u please pm me your email for the pics ?

best, Fred


----------



## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> base plate clearly is not marked 40-68, Sempervivens.
> 
> was planning to prepare a complete pic set of dial/movement/serial for Daniel's new thread, but have to take some more pics for that which clearly show the case serial, so just a quick list; I've added some Girard Perregaux to add to the confusion, as some seem to carry similar case numbers, some not
> 
> the black dial piece is currently in transit, so no caseback pics of this one for now, sorry.
> 
> best, Fred


Base plate is not marked 40-68, but is it marked 40 or not marked at all on the base plate?

As I see it only the Excelsior Park watches are marked on the base plate: 4, 40, 40-68...

The others (Gallet, Girard-Perregaux, Zenith) use their own calibre designations on the bridge.

Do you see what I mean about the stud on the balance, the different regulating device?

Wonderful presentation, Fred. But besides the latest arrival, where is the Zenith?


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## WatchFred

not visibly marked, Sempervivens; assume it is marked on the dial side ?
no, afaik Gallet too were marked 40-68, iirc the pic Daniel posted above is from a Gallet.

do not have caseback and movement pics of my Yugoslavia Zenith 143-6, have to get the watch from storage, will try to do that over the weekend; there's another EP40 I need to photograph for Daniel, assume 40-68.

here's the dial side of my "Yugo Airforce" Zenith, below some pics of a piece from the web - claims are that these watches are from the mid 1960s, but the number inside the caseback would indicate a different period ?


----------



## sempervivens

On second thoughts many of the Excelsior Parks are also unmarked on the base plate, no calibre indicated.

The 'Gallet' posted by Dan (I don't remember the dial side) is an unusual piece, apparently not marked Gallet on the movement, but there is a part missing there.

The Zenith "Pilot" belongs to the mid 1950's.


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## WatchFred

re the Zenith, no doubt looks like a mid 50s, the Yugoslavia pilots claim they received it in the mid 60s though .....


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## sempervivens

It is possible that Zenith made a similar chronograph in the mid 1960's, but then with a Zenith cal 146 (not Excelsior Park).

Zenith sold these Pilot Chronographs with Zenith cal 143-6 (Excelsior Park 4 with incabloc) to the Yugoslav National Army ca. 1955.

I have seen many claims that these watches belonged to pilots in the Yugoslav army. The same goes for my watch: I was told it belonged to a Yugoslav army pilot.

This is confirmed by the fact that most pieces can be traced back to Yugoslavia. For instance there are two for sale from Beograd (Belgrade) at the moment. Mine came from Zagreb.

One seller claimed his watch was a gift to a Yugoslav general in 1954 to commemorate 10 years of liberation. He had no proof for that, but it is an interesting claim.

I looked it up: actually Yugoslavia was liberated in 1945.

It is possible that the Yugoslav Army bought these watches in 1955 for their pilots, and also as gifts for their generals etc. to commemorate 10 years of liberation as well as 10 years since the foundation of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA).

The Zenith case numbers prove these watches were produced c. 1954/1955.

The Zenith Pilot Chronograph is one of the most beautiful and prolific vintage Zenith chronographs out there; I estimate that about 2000 were made.

Personally I like it a lot better than the famous Zenith Cairelli CP-2 made ca. 1969 (reportedly about 2500 were made), many of which were also never issued and so never saw any real action as a pilot's watch.

This vintage Zenith Pilot Chronograph could have been featured in the 1956 Zenith catalog, were it not that they were all sold to the Yugoslav People's Army.

Note that at its height the Yugoslav Air Force was one of the largest air forces in Europe.


----------



## sempervivens

Gallet (Excelsior Park cal 40) ca. 1955/56


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## WatchFred

the Z is in wonderful condition, sv ! and a lovely MC12 !


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## sempervivens

Thank you, Fred. How about your Zenith: could you get it from storage yet?


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## jackruff

OK double post....For me it's all about the font...


----------



## WatchFred

sempervivens said:


> Thank you, Fred. How about your Zenith: could you get it from storage yet?


got my Z from storage but the EP wasn't in the box where. i had expected it, need to check again on Monday.
thought you might enjoy this old thing, going off topic again, sorry.


----------



## WatchFred

on topic again, though not a Z, an EP case I have not seen with other brands, will send movement and inner caseback pics to Daniel.


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## sempervivens

jackruff said:


> OK double post....For me it's all about the font...


It is lovely, Jack.

Based on the case number (and comparison with Zenith chronographs and case numbers) I would date this to the early 1950's.

is the front case chromé?


----------



## jackruff

sempervivens said:


> It is lovely, Jack.
> 
> Based on the case number (and comparison with Zenith chronographs and case numbers) I would date this to the early 1950's.
> 
> is the front case chromé?


Yes...


----------



## sempervivens

jackruff said:


> Yes...


That's nice, a simple answer to a simple question b-)

I have to admit I'm wondering a bit, why I didn't get a reply to some other simple questions I asked here:

Six days ago:



> I find this looks more like an advertisement that was made _during the war, in the middle of the war, not before WW II even started. What do you guys think? _


(No reply.)

Ok, this could have been taken as a rhetorical question. But these are not:

Five days ago:


> @ DragonDan
> ... Does your EP 42 have a case number? And your MultiChron 45 EP4?


 (https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/excelsior-park-838681-11.html#post12150498)

(No reply.)

Four days ago :



> Dan, I think you said somewhere that the 40-68 watches were introduced in 1968: where did you find that information?


 (https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/excelsior-park-838681-12.html#post12211706)

(No reply)

And three days ago to Fred (and all others who are interested):



> Do you see what I mean about the stud on the balance, the different regulating device?


(No reply)

:think:


----------



## cellar

Hi sempervivens,

Sometimes it takes time to do some digging. I haven't found your "wartime" advertisement but the following two are from La Fédération Horlogère Suisse.

The first showing the helmets is dated 12 December 1940










And the second showing the same watch as in your original advertisement is from 2 October 1941










Cheers from the cellar


----------



## sempervivens

cellar said:


> Hi sempervivens,
> 
> Sometimes it takes time to do some digging. I haven't found your "wartime" advertisement but the following two are from La Fédération Horlogère Suisse.
> 
> The first showing the helmets is dated 12 December 1940
> 
> And the second showing the same watch as in your original advertisement is from 2 October 1941
> 
> Cheers from the cellar


Hi Cellar,

that is wonderful, thank you for that.

This confirms that the advertisement with the soldiers doesn't date to 1938, but was made during the war.

It also confirms that JB cal. 4 followed several years after cal. 42: since the advertisement is for a 12 ''' chronograph, this can only refer to cal 42, thus implying that cal 4 was not yet ready.

Maybe next we will see you dig up a 1942 or 1943 (or later?) advertisement for a 14''' chronograph (Excelsior Park cal. 4) ;-)

It is beautiful to see these old advertisements. Thanks again.


----------



## WatchFred

@sempervivens, sorry if I have overlooked your question, here's the Gallet MC12 #943177 again:










and here the (expected) EP40-68 we have not seen yet; dial is marked EP, case (unexpectedly) marked Racine, #961396

















yes, I do see the similarities. re "dating the 40-68" to 1968 - just several such claims all over, nothing documented that I know of (not counting Girard Perregaux who claimed this, as they have no records whatsoever).

and finally my Z, said I'd grab pics over the weekend, sorry I could only make it on Monday


----------



## Tucayjordan

Hello all,

-The oldest advertisement of an Excélsior Park wrist chronograph that I have found is in a 1940 catalog, printed in 1939. It´s the EP 42 with oval case and flat pushers (enclosed file).

-I have checked previous catalogs (1935, 1936, 1937, 1938 and 1939) and I haven´t found any Excélsior Park advertisement.

-I have also check two 1941 catalogs and I haven´t found any Excélsior Park 4 or 40 advertisement, just the EP42 oval case and flat pushers.

-I have NOT checked any catalog from 1942 to 1949.

-In a 1950 catalog I have found advertisements of EP42 with round case and round pushers, EP4 with flat pushers and EP4 Navigator. The same in a 1951 catalog (except the EP4 Navigator).

-I have NOT cheched any catalog from 1952.

-In a catalog of 1953 there are EP42 with round case and round pushers, EP4 with flat pushers, EP40 with round pushers. The same in a 1954 catalog and also EP40 with flat pushers.

-In a 1960 catalog there are EP4 and EP40 with flat pushers and EP4 and EP40 with round pushers. 

- In 1961, 1963, 1964 and 1965 catalogs only EP4 and EP40 with round pushers. In another 1963 catalog EP4 with flat pushers and EP40 with round pushers.

Obviously, we need to make a research at least in catalogs from 1942 to 1949.

Best regards.

P.S. I have forgotten to say that all these advertisements in these catalogs are specific of Gallet chronographs... with Excélsior Park calibers and with other calibers that Gallet used like Venus 140, 150, 170, 188, Valjoux 69, 71, 72, 72-C, Universal Geneve 281... By the way I have the doubt if Gallet used also Valjoux 22 or Venus 175...


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## DragonDan

sempervivens said:


> That's nice, a simple answer to a simple question b-)
> 
> I have to admit I'm wondering a bit, why I didn't get a reply to some other simple questions I asked here:


Hi SV, I didn't have as much time these last few days as I'd have hoped. I'm building a dining room table, and nearing the end. So between riding 30 miles on my road bicycle over the weekend and cutting and sanding, not much left over for watch talk.

How's this for off-topic!








Yes, I had fully planned on getting and posting the serial numbers for all of my EP-based Gallet's. I don't really have a problem with notating my watches, but other contributors may. I have not yet posted that question - whether folks would want their names linked to specific watches.

Regarding the origin of the EPxx-68, I have two sources. The first was by Dr. Ranfft regarding a question I had posed on F11 as to what the heck the -68 stood for. His answer as always was direct and short. Just that it was the addition of a movable stud feature. Not much more detail than that. The other source is from DL at Gallet, I don't remember if it was a phone call or an email - this was probably well over a year ago now. He had said that this feature was introduced in 1968. It made sense to me, so I didn't question it further. I've not seen any literature that even mentions this "new" addition. All those catalogs we pass around only give the briefest of information, sometimes not even the caliber. Heck, even nowadays manufacturers might only mention that the watch contains a mechanical movement. I'm looking at you Tissot! 

~Daniel


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## artb

WATCHFRED: Want to express appreciation for your fine efforts and resulting very interesting and nearly complete info. I neglected to read your reference in your first posting here. After several years of trying to get info about the GALLET compass chrono 
I found it was thoroughly described there. THANKYOU. artb


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## sempervivens

Tucayjordan said:


> Hello all,
> 
> -The oldest advertisement of an Excélsior Park wrist chronograph that I have found is in a 1940 catalog, printed in 1939. It´s the EP 42 with oval case and flat pushers (enclosed file).


DragonDan has posted similar catalogs from 1939 on previous pages (p. 11-12) of this thread .

These catalogs are interesting as far as they show that Gallet already has so many different wristwatch chronographs with two pushers for sale in 1939/1940.

However none of these are Excelsior park chronographs.

I see no indication or proof whatsoever that any of these 1939/1940 Gallet chronographs featured a JB cal 42.

Not only is the quality of this advertisement/catalog page not good enough to make out any of the details (it hurts the eyes);

it would also be next to impossible for a watch that had barely been presented by Excelsior Park to the public at the Swiss national exposition in 1939, to be already featured in a Gallet catalog that same year.

The earliest advertisements for the Excelsior Park 12 ''' cal. JB 42 remain those posted by Cellar and Emre (p. 11 and 14 of this thread): they are advertisements by Excelsior Park themselves and date to 5 and 12 December 1940.


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> @sempervivens, sorry if I have overlooked your question, here's the Gallet MC12 #943177 again:
> 
> and here the (expected) EP40-68 we have not seen yet; dial is marked EP, case (unexpectedly) marked Racine, #961396
> 
> yes, I do see the similarities. re "dating the 40-68" to 1968 - just several such claims all over, nothing documented that I know of (not counting Girard Perregaux who claimed this, as they have no records whatsoever).
> 
> and finally my Z, said I'd grab pics over the weekend, sorry I could only make it on Monday


That's the sort of quality time and attention I like and was expecting from you, Fred, thank you for that.

Here's what I think about the changes in the balance and regulating device in your Excelsior Park chronographs:

Until ca. 1950 as a general rule they do not use incabloc. The traditional regulating device has a long regulator arm and the letters 'S/R' and 'F/A'.

Example:









In the early 1950's Excelsior Park chronographs could still be had like this without incabloc.
However some E.P. chronographs already have incabloc in the early 1950's (for instance Zeniths).
The regulating device otherwise remains the same with the long arm and letters 'S/R' and 'F/A'.

Example:









This (with incabloc) became standard by 1955.

Then a few years later (ca. 1957/58) a transition was made where only a short regulator arm was used, and a mobile stud was introduced. The old letters 'S/R' and 'F/A' are still present









Finally, as a last stage, the regulator arm was left away completely, and the traditional letters 'S/R' and 'F/A' were replaced by a modern '-' and '+'. At this point it is called cal. 4-68 or 40-68.









When this last stage was reached, I can't tell exactly, but it must still have been in the late 1950's.

The next piece proves the change still happened in the 1950's:









The above is an Excelsior Park 4-68, designated as a Zenith 143-8. This is a very rare example as most Zeniths with E.P.4(0) movements are designated Zenith cal 143 (without incabloc) or 143-6 (with incabloc).
In 1959 Zenith bought and incorporated Martel Watch co and afterwards only used their own cal 136/146 chronograph movements. 
So the above Zenith cal 143-8 must date to the 1950's and proves the Excelsior Park 4-68 was created in the late 1950's.

Another thing i can tell, is that the production of Excelsior Park chronographs clearly peaked in the 1950's. After that it seems to have died down and comparatively few were made in the 1960's or 1970's.

Finally, Fred, have you never tried asking Gallet to date one of your chronographs for you?

I have seen somewhere that Gallet must have old Excelsior Park registers, as they dated one cal 40 chronograph as "manufactured in our factory in Switzerland in 1958":








(The photograph mentions its source)

This is the Gallet E.P. 40 chronograph that was dated to 1958:


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## Tucayjordan

Hello sempervivens,

Yes, in May 2014 I uploaded this 1940 catalog (printed in 1939) in another thread of Daniel (DragonDan) about Gallet advertisements.

I´m a Gallet and Excélsior Park collector and I can guarantee 100% that, if anyone pay attention to the pictures of this advertisement printed in 1939, he will be able to recognise 3 Gallet chronographs with Excélsior Park 42 caliber with 3 different dials, without any kind of doubt.

I do not believe in statements. I believe in proofs. That´s why I did my own research in those catalogs.

Perhaps it doesn´t match with your previous opinion but it is not a matter of opinions, this 1940 catalog printed in 1939 is a real fact that proves that in 1939 Gallet chronographs were assembled with Excélsior Park 42 calibers.

And due that we do not have a time machine or Gallet/Excélsior Park official documentation, I believe that the advertisements in catalogs/magazines are a the most reliable tool to stablish some dates and help us to solve the puzzle.



sempervivens said:


> DragonDan has posted similar catalogs from 1939 on previous pages (p. 11-12) of this thread .
> 
> These catalogs are interesting as far as they show that Gallet already has so many different wristwatch chronographs with two pushers for sale in 1939/1940.
> 
> However none of these are Excelsior park chronographs.
> 
> I see no indication or proof whatsoever that any of these 1939/1940 Gallet chronographs featured a JB cal 42.
> 
> Not only is the quality of this advertisement/catalog page not good enough to make out any of the details (it hurts the eyes);
> 
> it would also be next to impossible for a watch that had barely been presented by Excelsior Park to the public at the Swiss national exposition in 1939, to be already featured in a Gallet catalog that same year.
> 
> The earliest advertisements for the Excelsior Park 12 ''' cal. JB 42 remain those posted by Cellar and Emre (p. 11 and 14 of this thread): they are advertisements by Excelsior Park themselves and date to 5 and 12 December 1940.


----------



## sempervivens

Tucayjordan said:


> Hello sempervivens,
> 
> Yes, in May 2014 I uploaded this 1940 catalog (printed in 1939) in another thread of Daniel (DragonDan) about Gallet advertisements.
> 
> I´m a Gallet and Excélsior Park collector and I can guarantee 100% that, if anyone pay attention to the pictures of this advertisement printed in 1939, he will be able to recognise 3 Gallet chronographs with Excélsior Park 42 caliber with 3 different dials, without any kind of doubt.
> 
> I do not believe in statements. I believe in proofs. That´s why I did my own research in those catalogs.
> 
> Perhaps it doesn´t match with your previous opinion but it is not a matter of opinions, this 1940 catalog printed in 1939 is a real fact that proves that in 1939 Gallet chronographs were assembled with Excélsior Park 42 calibers.
> 
> And due that we do not have a time machine or Gallet/Excélsior Park official documentation, I believe that the advertisements in catalogs/magazines are a the most reliable tool to stablish some dates and help us to solve the puzzle.


hello Tucayjordan,

why do you write Excélsior? I think it should simply be Excelsior.

I have paid attention to the pictures of the advertisement, but like I said IMHO the quality of this advertisement is not good enough to recognize anything in these pictures.

So how you can claim that this is even beyond doubt, is beyond me. I don't see any proof there.

I do see proof in this:









This clearly proves that Excelsior Park exhibited their new 12 ''' chronograph at the Swiss national exhibition in 1939.

After seeing this proof, I think that anybody who still wants to maintain that the Excelsior Park cal 42 or even cal 4 was already launched in 1938, is not being serious.

The same goes for anybody who wants to claim that the new E.P. 12''' chronograph was already used by Gallet (or any other company) in 1938/39.

It is too obvious from the above newspaper article that in 1939 the new chronograph was just being presented at the swiss national exhibition. This is an early stage.

You may like to believe whatever you like and you may have believed in this advertisement for quite some time so that can make it difficult to let go of that.

But I don't see any proof there.

Here is another proof that I do see and recognise:

















The first picture above is from the Excelsior Park catalog, dated 1939. In this, their own, catalog, the new 12 ''' chronograph is not yet featured (you can check the whole catalog, this is just the front page). So how can you think that the new E.P. chronograph, that was not yet ready for their own 1939 catalog, could have been featured in somebody else's 1939 catalog - let alone in a U.S. catalog?

The second (last) picture above is an Excelsior Park advertisement, dated December 1940. Here we can clearly recognize their new 12''' wristwatch chronograph and so it's a proof that it existed in December 1940 and was for sale. This is the oldest known advertisement for an Excelsior Park 12''' wristwatch chronograph.

I'm sorry to repeat it but in the 1939 US catalog for Gallet watches there is nothing that can be recognized and proven as E.P.. There were many different chronographs with different movements that all look a lot like each other. It is a well-known fact that Gallet for instance used Venus 150 in 1939.


----------



## Tucayjordan

Hello sempervivens,

How many Gallet chronographs with oval shape and hands and dials like the EP42 do you know?

If you do not want to see it, it´s your choice, but it is a fact that in 1939 Gallet advertised chronographs with EP42 for sale in the USA.

I have never said that the EP4 was launched in 1938... but anyone can make a mistake. It´s not the end of the world and we are not here to lash out at anyone for a mistake.

And yes I try to be serious when I write about Gallet and Excélsior Park.

I don´t believe that your opinion is humble, I believe that your manners are extremely manipulative and arrogant. We are in this forum to share information and not to pontificate.


sempervivens said:


> hello Tucayjordan,
> 
> why do you write Excélsior? I think it should simply be Excelsior.
> 
> I have paid attention to the pictures of the advertisement, but like I said IMHO the quality of this advertisement is not good enough to recognize anything in these pictures.
> 
> So how you can claim that this is even beyond doubt, is beyond me. I don't see any proof there.
> 
> I do see proof in this:
> 
> View attachment 2843906
> 
> 
> This clearly proves that Excelsior Park exhibited their new 12 ''' chronograph at the Swiss national exhibition in 1939.
> 
> After seeing this proof, I think that anybody who still wants to maintain that the Excelsior Park cal 42 or even cal 4 was already launched in 1938, is not being serious.
> 
> The same goes for anybody who wants to claim that the new E.P. 12''' chronograph was already used by Gallet (or any other company) in 1938/39.
> 
> It is too obvious from the above newspaper article that in 1939 the new chronograph was just being presented at the swiss national exhibition. This is an early stage.
> 
> You may like to believe whatever you like and you may have believed in this advertisement for quite some time so that can make it difficult to let go of that.
> 
> But I don't see any proof there.
> 
> Here is another proof that I do see and recognise:
> 
> View attachment 2843922
> 
> 
> View attachment 2843930
> 
> 
> The first picture above is from the Excelsior Park catalog, dated 1939. In this, their own, catalog, the new 12 ''' chronograph is not yet featured (you can check the whole catalog, this is just the front page). So how can you think that the new E.P. chronograph, that was not yet ready for their own 1939 catalog, could have been featured in somebody else's 1939 catalog - let alone in a U.S. catalog?
> 
> The second (last) picture above is an Excelsior Park advertisement, dated December 1940. Here we can clearly recognize their new 12''' wristwatch chronograph and so it's a proof that it existed in December 1940 and was for sale. This is the oldest known advertisement for an Excelsior Park 12''' wristwatch chronograph.
> 
> I'm sorry to repeat it but in the 1939 US catalog for Gallet watches there is nothing that can be recognized and proven as E.P.. There were many different chronographs with different movements that all look a lot like each other. It is a well-known fact that Gallet for instance used Venus 150 in 1939.


----------



## sempervivens

Tucayjordan said:


> Hello sempervivens,
> 
> How many Gallet chronographs with oval shape and hands and dials like the EP42 do you know?
> 
> If you do not want to see it, it´s your choice, but it is a fact that in 1939 Gallet advertised chronographs with EP42 for sale in the USA.
> 
> I have never said that the EP4 was launched in 1938... but anyone can make a mistake. It´s not the end of the world and we are not here to lash out at anyone for a mistake.
> 
> And yes I try to be serious when I write about Gallet and Excélsior Park.
> 
> I don´t believe that your opinion is humble, I believe that your manners are extremely manipulative and arrogant. We are in this forum to share information and not to pontificate.


You can please keep your visiting cards for yourself.

You make statements, but you don't show any proof.

There are other Gallet chronographs with leaf hands.

I don't see any oval cases in your advertisement.

In fact like I said the quality of your advertisement is not good enough to recognize anything.


----------



## WatchFred

let me add that Pedro, forum member "*Tucayjordan"* is a well known collector of Gallet and Excelsior Park watches, his collection dwarfs anything else I have seen in that area, so I'd listen to him and I value his input; being Spanish he adds the "accent" to the Excelsior e, nothing to get too upset about - let us try to keep advancing our knowledge base, understanding that opinions can and will differ ?

I looked at the catalog Pedro posted and can't understand how we could question these are EP42s, there are no similar oval cases by any other manufacturer ? - I just don't know how sure we can be about the claimed dates ?

re "asking Gallet", @sempervivens; why would you trust their records with serial numbers and on the other hand dismiss their - very clear - statement they had the first EP4 and EP40 in 1938 (might have been preproduction units) ?

if we are only looking to prove our own positions, we won't get too far, I'm afraid; when I say "case closed" I do it with a wink, I know how little we know, with no records we can clearly date and trust.


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> let me add that Pedro, forum member "*Tucayjordan"* is a well known collector of Gallet and Excelsior Park watches, his collection dwarfs anything else I have seen in that area, so I'd listen to him and I value his input; being Spanish he adds the "accent" to the Excelsior e, nothing to get too upset about - let us try to keep advancing our knowledge base, understanding that opinions can and will differ ?
> 
> I looked at the catalog Pedro posted and can't understand how we could question these are EP42s, there are no similar oval cases by any other manufacturer ? - I just don't know how sure we can be about the claimed dates ?
> 
> re "asking Gallet", @sempervivens; why would you trust their records with serial numbers and on the other hand dismiss their - very clear - statement they had the first EP4 and EP40 in 1938 (might have been preproduction units) ?
> 
> if we are only looking to prove our own positions, we won't get too far, I'm afraid; when I say "case closed" I do it with a wink, I know how little we know, with no records we can clearly date and trust.


Some good points Fred. How sure can we be about the claimed dates for this advertisement?

As for the statement by Gallet that they used EP 40 and EP 4 in 1938: from all the evidence I've seen so far, the EP 4 didn't exist until ca. 1942.

Gallet also state on their website that "*For over 500 years, Gallet timepieces have been the first choice for the world's most important timekeeping applications."*

I think they exaggerate things a little, which is not unusual as public relations go.

For instance Universal Genève claim on their website that they launched the Compax with 12 h counter in 1935. In another document here they even claim 1933. It is simply advancing the actual launch date with some years. It is true that they patented the name 'Contax' name in 1935. But it took two more years before the watch appeared in a catalog and was for sale. Sorry to be so precise, but 1937 would be more correct as a launch date. 1936 for the patent date for the mechanism. 1935 was only the patent for the name 'Contax'. I can patent a name for a new chronograph, that doesn't mean I have launched it that year. Similarly Excelsior I believe have patented their mechanism for cal 42 in 1938. But that doesn't mean actual Gallet watches were available with the cal 42 mechanism in 1938. And certainly not cal. 4 ?

So that's just your usual public relations and that is not always exact. For instance Zenith still keeps claiming in their public relations that 'El Primero' is Esperanto. It is not; it is Spanish.

But if they have registers with the serial numbers, that's a different thing, anybody who has the register can read the date on the page with the case number.


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## Tucayjordan

Sempervivens, first you tried to discredit the contents of this 1940 catalog, printed in 1939. 

Now you try to question if I say the true about the dates of the catalog. 

You are not the authority to whom the rest of the colleagues of this forum we should justify. That is manipulative again. Or do you want to pay the honorarium of the notary that will certify my catalog? 

By the way, do you have your own notary certifications for what you write?... "but the Excelsior Park cal. 42 / cal 4 was a double button chronograph from the start and was never made as a single button chronograph." Or "cal 42 /cal 4 has a 45 minute register".

If we pay attention to this advertisement (and we also read it), we can see an Excélsior Park 42, monopusher, with a 30 minutes counter. The same in the pictures... In my opinion it is a very early (one of the earliest) EP42 and it is very rare.

I make mistakes as everyone makes. We are all horological colleagues without any hierarchy, without commands, without reproachs. Otherwise the atmosphere becomes unbreathable. We are in the forum to share information, doubts and our passion for vintage watches.


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## sempervivens

Hi Tùcayjordan,

I stand corrected and am glad for it. I completely overlooked the EP 42 monopusher chronograph with 30 minute counter in that advertisement. Therefore I am utterly humiliated and apologize to all.

And I thank you for correcting me. And I would like to pay you back in the same coin with brotherly admonitions.

First of all, concerning your catalog.

Please don't be so hotheaded as to start threatening me immediately with lawsuits and notary certifications.

I am not the only one here who would like to ascertain the exact date for your catalog or advertisement (what is it exactly? a separate catalog, or an advertisement in a newspaper or somewhere else?).

WatchFred also said (and rightly if I may say so):


> I just don't know how sure we can be about the claimed dates ?


Yet you don't accuse Fred of being manipulative.

This is not being manipulative. You are overreacting and calling me names for nothing. It is a normal and plain reaction to ask: how do you know the date?

I would be happy to believe you and take your word for it that this is a 1940 catalog.

However it wouldn't harm if you could kindly explain : how do you know that it dates to 1940 ?

And how do you know it was printed in 1939?

Even if you would take it to a notary, or the supreme court, you would still have to explain and show the notary how you know the date?

Is there a date printed on the back of the paper? Or is it taken from a newspaper or magazine that carries a date?

Or is this date something you deducted from other tangible facts ?

I am not an authority and we're all equal here or I am less than you.

That is the more reason for you to explain to me and instruct me how you can date it.

I don't see a date on the paper.

Another thing is: I've complained before about the quality of the image. You have shared an image in pdf-format. The quality is not that excellent, it is small print. The pdf-format probably makes it worse. If you could share a different format (preferably a normal image) and higher resolution, it would certainly help us all to have a better look at it. It's up to you. Like you have done with this early advertisement with the monopusher cal. 42: you have posted the same advertisement which we've seen before but in a higher resolution and that has helped me to read it better and see my mistake.

I'm just suggesting here, I'm just asking, it is not a command. Do as you like. Also I'm not doubting that you speak the truth. Still it wouldn't hurt if you could also come down a bit from your mountain top and tell us more: how do you know the date, where is the advertisement taken from etc.

Finally, and still in the brotherly spirit of paying you back in the same coin with some (hopefully) useful corrections and admonitions, if I may most respectfully point it out again: it is not Excèlsior. The correct spelling is: Excelsior. As you surely know, excelsior is Latin, meaning "higher", "upwards". In Latin we do not use accents. If you spell it wrongly, you are not taking it any higher, but downhill. You have corrected me in more important matters, so please accept this small correction from me in return. So we may all be able go higher, to the highest point: excélsior to the zénith. Oops. I meant of course: excelsior, to the zenith.


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## WatchFred

@tucayjordan: Pedro, great stuff, thank you. if you could clarify your source for dating that catalog that - for me . clearly shows EP42 this would help us immensely.
@sempervivens: If I'd had a penny for every incorrect spelling of French and German watch brands by our dear English-centric friends ..... 
re asking Gallet: I think we should contact Gallet when Daniel is done with his serial number thread and ask them to help dating all the pieces ?


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> @sempervivens: If I'd had a penny for every incorrect spelling of French and German watch brands by our dear English-centric friends .....


There, you've done it again. You should not presume on any ground to defend another.


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## WatchFred

sempervivens said:


> There, you've done it again. You should not presume on any ground to defend another.


done what again, sempervivens, trying to end a counterproductive discussion about accents on a lighter note ?
guilty as charged. let's not take ourselves too seriously and continue to work together to learn from each other.


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## Tucayjordan

The file with Gallet chronographs that I uploaded in this forum is part of a 1940 A. C. Becken Book hardback catalog. I have the complete catalog and it was printed in 1939, as it is written in the lower side of one of its first pages.


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## DragonDan

TCJ, that image of the mono pusher EP42 is beyond fabulous. I have not seen that before, and humbly said, is rather significant. Now, if only we had the serial number of that piece.... I'd really like to knock the black-dialed EP42 out of first place. As a hobbyist photographer, that really is a crappy image. Grates on my nerves...


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## WatchFred

Tucayjordan said:


> The file with Gallet chronographs that I uploaded in this forum is part of a 1940 A. C. Becken Book hardback catalog. I have the complete catalog and it was printed in 1939, as it is written in the lower side of one of its first pages.


thank you, Pedro. 
any chance to get a better pic of that Gallet page, please ?

I was searching for a Bennet Brothers Blue Book from 1940 to 1944, no success yes, assuming they've continued to carry the whole Gallet range like in 1938 these should have all those models .....


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## Tucayjordan

About vintage catalogs in the USA, I like very much the summary about their origins described in this link: Trade Catalog Collection | Chicago Public Library

I have found catalogs with vintage Gallet chronographs advertisements of several trade companies like: 
Benj Allen, 
A. C. Becken, 
Bennett Brothers, 
Fort Dearborn, 
Trebing, 
Oskamp Nolting...

I attach three pictures of the 1940 Becken catalog: 
one with the 1939 copyright, 
one with only the 3 Gallet with EP42 
and one with all the Gallet chronographs included in this page: 3 with EP42, 2 Clamshell with Venus 150, 1 with Valjoux 69, 2 with Venus 170 and 1 with what I would say it is a Valjoux 71 (I personally do not believe that it could be an EP40)...https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/mystery-gallet-1077085.html


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## DragonDan

Looks pretty similar to me.

















That reminds me, I still need to get the serial numbers from my own EP-based watches. Gotta get my camera gear out this weekend.

*** Edit, in case it's not clear to folks, this EP42 is from my collection. 
~D


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## WatchFred

excellent, Pedro, thank you for the better pics, no doubt whatsoever, I'd say.


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## WatchFred

two more EP40, will update the web album and message you, Daniel.










and










and a nice black dial too


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## DragonDan

Thank you WF. I need to do the final push and get those last few listed

-D


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## WatchFred

one more motivation for that final push, Daniel ?

you might remember that piece with the cracked and massively yellowed dial; well it's back now from the Spa, even nicer than I had dared to hope:


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## Ericherz

Any before pics, Fred? That's an absolute stunner.


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## WatchFred

here it one, nothing "done" to it but crystal replacement and service.


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## Ericherz

Awesome, well done.


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## DragonDan

Motivation I have, it's time that is in sorry supply recently. 
I did some photography last weekend and tried to update that Serial Number post. Seems they have a time frame limit. Thankfully, Marrick has offered to help. It masked the most sense when it is all in one post, not scattered.


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## ghwatch

Jules Racine branded EP 40-68 "Multichron Pilot". Correct Gallet & Co and JXR markings in movement.


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## DragonDan

At ghwatch, have you looked at the movement? I have one of these, and the EP40 is some kind of brass alloy. It is in need of a good deal of parts, so has been on the back burner for a while. 
I've heard some people say this model was used for the Bolivian air force 

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## ghwatch

Hi Dan
Below is a pic of the movement.
I believe it was for the Peruvian Air force, however mine has no military markings so probably a civilian version.
Best,
George



















DragonDan said:


> At ghwatch, have you looked at the movement? I have one of these, and the EP40 is some kind of brass alloy. It is in need of a good deal of parts, so has been on the back burner for a while.
> I've heard some people say this model was used for the Bolivian air force
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## DragonDan

I don't think I've posted this before. Here's that movement that came in the Racine-labeled blue bezel watch.










you can see why it is still on the back burner, it needs quite a few parts. Gallet used a brass alloy for one of their MultiChron's for the military before, maybe this really is a Peruvian model. I don't know how we'd find out.

~Daniel


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## DragonDan

Here's the face


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## Hartmut Richter

What a waste.....:-( Good luck in finding the necessary parts.

Hartmut Richter


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## Northernman

*Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

Hi Guys,

Thought I would like to get some opinions on a recently acquired EP42.
I have never seen another with only one pusher!? (No! It is not simply missing, it actually works as a mono pusher should do).
The watch is still not in my hands for another couple of weeks, but any information or ideas are warmly welcome.

Sorry but only sellers pics up to now:
















Serial number is 757133.


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## laikrodukas

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

I think dial was repainted..


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## sempervivens

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

The mono-pusher version of the cal 42. It is rare. That and the serial number indicate it is an early Excelsior Park chronograph (first half of 1940's). Congrats.

Dial could be repainted. I think it is anyway a replacement: this dial style with applied numerals and indices is more something for the 1950's. The 'suiza' indication was used for export to South America (Brazil) and also more seen on watches ca. 1950.

The small hand for the minute counter could also be a replacement IMHO: the early Excelsior Park's usually have a small hand with an arrow.

The other hands, the case and the movement seem all correct.


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## DragonDan

It's a nice watch, definitely. 
The dial has been repainted, but it's not that surprising. A lot of the very early Gallet/ Ex Park's don't have dials that weathered the years well. 
The movement looks solid, it will be a good find if you get your hands on it 

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## Trent M

Hi guys , this is my first post on this site . I'm a manufacturing jeweller and I've I've always had a bit of a passion for watches . I've just purchased my first serious watch you might say . I've always wanted a nice classic chrono , and I think I've just bought it . I wanted a manual wind so it would hopefully give me less headaches over time , and one with a nice movement . I picked this up on eBay for $900 odd US dollars , and it is not working at the moment . I hope it won't take to much to get it up to scratch . Here's some pictures the seller posted . Thanks for looking and I look forward to your thoughts .









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Northernman

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*



sempervivens said:


> The mono-pusher version of the cal 42. It is rare. That and the serial number indicate it is an early Excelsior Park chronograph (first half of 1940's). Congrats.
> 
> Dial could be repainted. I think it is anyway a replacement: this dial style with applied numerals and indices is more something for the 1950's. The 'suiza' indication was used for export to South America (Brazil) and also more seen on watches ca. 1950.
> 
> The small hand for the minute counter could also be a replacement IMHO: the early Excelsior Park's usually have a small hand with an arrow.
> 
> The other hands, the case and the movement seem all correct.


I believe the notion of a replacement dial rather than a repaint holds water. The watch sits with a collector friend of mine right now (I bought it together with another ExPark Gallet EP40-68). 
He has examined it with a microscope and has no indications it is not original print. All works, and next week I will pick them up in person.
Had another picture of it taken today: 








And then theres the Gallet I bought with it: 








Serial 948790.


----------



## sempervivens

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

Very nice. The Gallet dates to about 1960. Is the movement marked 40-68?


----------



## Northernman

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*



sempervivens said:


> Very nice. The Gallet dates to about 1960. Is the movement marked 40-68?


Movement is marked 40-68 / JXR / Gallet. 
I can upload some better pics when it arrives.


----------



## laikrodukas

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

So it's ok for original EP?


----------



## Northernman

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*



laikrodukas said:


> So it's ok for original EP?


Well spotted!

I will of course check one final time. Would like to rule out the possible optical disruption caused by the curved plexi. 
The watch came as a bonus with the Gallet anyhow, and I assume finding a decent cal 42 dial/hand is easier than sourcing a mono pusher watch.


----------



## Northernman

*Excelsior Park - EP5. Not too many around?*

One more EP that came my way recently. 
The EP5. An entirely in-house job which is claimed to have been the only three handed movement made by EP?!
I find the movement decorations rather interesting. 
Also felt that an EP collection is not really complete without one;-)


----------



## laikrodukas

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*



ottesenanders said:


> Well spotted!
> 
> I will of course check one final time. Would like to rule out the possible optical disruption caused by the curved plexi.
> The watch came as a bonus with the Gallet anyhow, and I assume finding a decent cal 42 dial/hand is easier than sourcing a mono pusher watch.


Crystal should be very distorted on the left side  because the right subdial is ok about spacing. Shadows could also do the trick but You have two different photos with the same weird spacing


----------



## Northernman

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*



laikrodukas said:


> Crystal should be very distorted on the left side  because the right subdial is ok about spacing. Shadows could also do the trick but You have two different photos with the same weird spacing


Will have the suspect in hands in a few days from now. I will of course share the results of the investigation


----------



## DragonDan

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

That will be good. In my experience, it is very rare for an EP or a Gallet dial to be mis-spaced. It may not apply to this particular dial, but Singer did do a lot of the dial work in the later years. Their dials were nigh-on perfect.

Here's a new old stock dial on my 1942 EP4.









I might do some other photography tonight, I can do a macro of the subdials on this watch


----------



## WatchFred

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*



DragonDan said:


> That will be good. In my experience, it is very rare for an EP or a Gallet dial to be mis-spaced. It may not apply to this particular dial, but Singer did do a lot of the dial work in the later years. Their dials were nigh-on perfect.


one notable exception, the MC12 Pilot reverse panda; all I've seen have that off center minute totalizer:


----------



## DragonDan

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

Interesting. You are correct WF, I haven't noticed that before.


----------



## Tucayjordan

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

I agree that this EP42 monopusher case is a very early example and I also believe that the small hand counter of minutes is not original.

About the dial I would say that it is a replacement (now and then almost identical dials are sold in ebay of Switzerland... for example 121673590550...). Hypothetically, this replacement dial could have been originally for a later EP4 and it could have been trimmed to reach the smaller diameter of the EP42... Also hypothetically someone
could also have added the word Suiza... perhaps because the original Swiss Made was located in the trimmed external part of the dial...

Is the hand register of (45) minutes working properly? ...because at least some of the original EP42 monopushers used to have a hand register of 30 minutes (instead of 45 minutes)...

Anyway if, hypothetically, someone took the trouble to trim/refinish the dial and assemble/change the small hand counter of minutes perhaps he could also have changed the corresponding mechanism of the register of minutes (from 30 to 45)... or not... as it has been a "bonus" watch...

P.S. the blue steel hands do not match with the golden Arabic numbers and batons...


----------



## Northernman

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*

Update on my newly arrived Gallet ExPark 40-68. Not perfect, but perfectly fine with me. 
Ticking ever so smoothly!
Always value opinions!


----------



## jfwoodman

Recently picked up my first Excelsior Park, apparently with the 4-68 movement. Just a couple iPhone photos for now. When the light catches it, you can see the blued hands. I really like it.

Jim


----------



## sempervivens

*Re: Excelsior Park - EP42 mono-pusher Version*



ottesenanders said:


> Update on my newly arrived Gallet ExPark 40-68. Not perfect, but perfectly fine with me.
> Ticking ever so smoothly!
> Always value opinions!


Very nice. I just noticed the small 'T' in the hours subdial. Does anybody know when tritium was introduced? I would guess in the early 1960's?


----------



## ghwatch

Gallet Multichron Pilot. Per Gallet website supposedly USAF Issue.


----------



## WatchFred

lovely piece !


----------



## FrenchKiss

Wow!


----------



## GhentWatch

Just picked up this 36mm Steel one.










Just needs a nice service as the chronograph has stopped working on me all of a sudden (worked fine at the seller's place). Hopefully nothing major.
Guessing late 40s early 50s as it is lacking shock-protection. ?


----------



## ghwatch

WatchFred said:


> lovely piece !


Fred, Dan,
Thank you. Would you know if these later Gallet/EP/GP/Racine 40-68's originally came on bracelets and if so what type of bracelet? 
Any info/opinions would be greatly appreciated. I have been searching unsuccessfully for a catalog scan.
Best,
George


----------



## WatchFred

no bracelets in the late 60s catalogs that I've seen.


----------



## WatchFred

but I have that same watch (EP branded) on a Milanaise mesh, exccelent fit, I think.


----------



## ghwatch

WatchFred said:


> but I have that same watch (EP branded) on a Milanaise mesh, exccelent fit, I think.


Thanks Fred, looks great on the Milanaise!


----------



## DragonDan

I had a quick look through my archives, and can only find one image of a Gallet/ Ex Park on a bracelet.









This is from a Bennett Brothers 1968 catalog, and typical of the bands in previous catalogs/ adverts


----------



## dalstott

Gallets with catalog background.


----------



## QWatchQ

Those are great looking chronographs.


----------



## KP-99

Hello,

i have another example for a Gallet chronograph.
I have bought this watch 3 years ago and it is one of my favorites.
It is a Gallet for Racine chronograph with Excelsior Park 40-68 (freshly serviced):

































I have found the following picture (scan) of my watch:









The movement is very nice and the numbers in the bezel are filled with lume.

Best regards from germany,
Peter


----------



## WatchFred

beautiful piece, Peter; congrats !

tried to find confirmation about these "US Air Force" claims that keep coming up, but found no records whatsoever.


----------



## KP-99

I have found this picture on this site (site of a watch friend):

GALLET by RACINE�@Excelsior Park-40�@ƒGƒNƒZƒ‹ƒVƒIƒp�[ƒN�@ƒ‰ƒV�[ƒ"

I do not know the source of this picture, but i think, it is the right production date.
I am new in this thread.
Does anyone know the manufacturer of this watch.
In my opinion, Girard Perregaux could be a possibility.
Sometimes, they use the same case with their Olimpico series.
I have found another picture: The same dial and the same hands, dial marked with GP








(source: www.)

Best regards,
Peter


----------



## WatchFred

Manufacturer was Excelsior Park, the watch was also marketed as "Gallet", "Gallet by Racine" & as a Girard Perregaux Olimpico.


----------



## KP-99

Thank you for your answer.
I love this watch.
If there is the possibility, i will try to find the bright counterpart of this watch.


----------



## ghwatch

KP-99 said:


> Hello,
> 
> i have another example for a Gallet chronograph.
> I have bought this watch 3 years ago and it is one of my favorites.
> It is a Gallet for Racine chronograph with Excelsior Park 40-68 (freshly serviced):
> 
> I have found the following picture (scan) of my watch:
> 
> The movement is very nice and the numbers in the bezel are filled with lume.
> 
> Best regards from germany,
> Peter


Fantastic watch, beautiful dial. Congratulations!!!


----------



## twelve199

Truly Regret selling this EP40 MC12...


----------



## Ericherz

twelve199 said:


> Truly Regret selling this EP40 MC12...


Sorry to hear my friend 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## twelve199

Very kind, thank you 

Wow - Look at that chocolate deliciousness!!! Beautiful!!!


----------



## WatchFred

"Olympic Torch" indices; one of my favorite Gallet/EP dials - and a nicely finished cal. JB40


----------



## sempervivens

Very nice, what a great condition. New arrival? 

Lovely pomegranates too b-)


----------



## WatchFred

thank you, sempervivens; yes, quite recent, serial is 930xxx, "gut feeling" (afraid we won't have more than that, as Gallet who had promised to publish their dating records now say "it's complicated"...) puts it in the late 1950s


----------



## KP-99

Hello WatchFred,

do you know the estimated production date of my Gallet (Serial: 963XXX)?

















I would classify this Gallet in the mid 70s??!

Best regards,
Peter


----------



## WatchFred

in line w/ the Excel-O-Graph we've seen, that was launched in 1972 afaik


----------



## KP-99

Thank you for your help, Fred!


----------



## Trent M

Fred that is one pretty looking Gallet . Very nice indeed . 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FrenchKiss

twelve199 said:


> Truly Regret selling this EP40 MC12...


Wow you could


----------



## dalstott

Page of wrist chronographs from a mid 1960s Racine Catalog


----------



## blackdot

Hi all,

Thanks for the wealth of information and knowledge in this thread, which I am still happily trawling through.

Joining the club with my first vintage chrono, an all-original (is this right?) EP, which had been on my wishlist for ages and popped up just in time to mark a career milestone.

The movement is said to work just fine, but there appears to be a bit of corrosion. Is the rust cause for immediate concern? Should I set out to replace any of the parts right away?


----------



## jackruff

Corrosion can mean water ingress which would make me wonder why that dial is so damn perfect? Looks like a EP4 with no shock protection - guessing 1950's.... Looks like Hodinkee were impressed...


----------



## WatchFred

dial was recently sold by Yasuhiko Sato, another one about 8 months ago by Peter Wyss. did not start life in this watch. beautiful piece though.


----------



## blackdot

Any thoughts on the health of the movement, and whether parts are necessary?



jackruff said:


> Corrosion can mean water ingress which would make me wonder why that dial is so damn perfect? *Looks like a EP4 with no shock protection - guessing 1950's....* Looks like Hodinkee were impressed...


How did the EP4 evolve through the ages? (If already discussed in the thread, which I am still reading, please let me know, and I'll get there.)

Is the dial and this version of the movement (and the case) from the same period? In other words, is this combination correct?



WatchFred said:


> dial was recently sold by Yasuhiko Sato, another one about 8 months ago by Peter Wyss. did not start life in this watch. beautiful piece though.


Hi Fred, thank you for the information. A gentle question - are you certain?

I am aware of another cal. EP4 that was retrofitted with an NOS dial, belonging to Anders (Northernman on Omega Forums). Great write-up here by his watchmaker.

Thanks, guys!


----------



## sempervivens

You should post a pic of the inside of the case so we can verify the case number. Going by the style of the hands your watch dates to ca. the mid 1940's and is therefore one of the oldest. Difficult to date it more precisely, as it is not known exactly when cal. 4 was launched.


----------



## blackdot

sempervivens said:


> You should post a pic of the inside of the case so we can verify the case number. Going by the style of the hands your watch dates to ca. the mid 1940's and is therefore one of the oldest. Difficult to date it more precisely, as it is not known exactly when cal. 4 was launched.


Here it is...... In which decade was the dial produced? Has anyone seen an example of this dial in its original case, with is original hands? If so, could you please post a link/photo?


----------



## sempervivens

The decade is certainly 1940's.

So far it is not possible to tell when cal. 4 was launched exactly. Could have been ca. 1945.

The case serial numbers for cal. 4 start at 806xxx. Yours is the 4th oldest I have seen so far.

Obviously that makes it fairly rare. More common are the EP's produced in the 1950's.

As for the dial: a typical dial for this period would be a white dial with a 'coat hanger 7' and 'open 4'. Something like this (which has a case number very close to yours):









Note the rectangular pushers and the minute recorder hand with arrow.


----------



## Northernman

Hi, 
Just thought I would throw in one I have in for service. Case serial is 807185. 
Movement serial 153379. No shock protection.

















Cheers!


----------



## Tucayjordan

> Is the dial and this version of the movement (and the case) from the same period? In other words, is this combination correct?
> 
> Hi Fred, thank you for the information. A gentle question - are you certain?
> 
> I am aware of another cal. EP4 that was retrofitted with an NOS dial, belonging to Anders (Northernman on Omega Forums). Great write-up here by his watchmaker.
> 
> Thanks, guys!


Hello blackdot,

I agree with WatchFred. Currently the same seller (Peter Wyss) is selling several types of Excelsior Park dials in ebay.ch

All the Excelsior Park chronographs with the same dial than yours that I have seen, and according to their owners, they all were replacements dials (lumed or not, with several types of hands and with two types of cases with two different diameters).

I can not say if they were 60 or 70 years old original vintage Excelsior Park dials or recently made copies or modified versions of vintage dials, but they were not originally assembled in the Excelsior Park factory...


----------



## drechristian

Tucayjordan said:


> Hello blackdot,
> 
> I agree with WatchFred. Currently the same seller (Peter Wyss) is selling several types of Excelsior Park dials in ebay.ch
> 
> All the Excelsior Park chronographs with the same dial than yours that I have seen, and according to their owners, they all were replacements dials (lumed or not, with several types of hands and with two types of cases with two different diameters).
> 
> I can not say if they were 60 or 70 years old original vintage Excelsior Park dials or recently made copies or modified versions of vintage dials, but they were not originally assembled in the Excelsior Park factory...


Hi I'm a newbie here in WUS and EP watches, but I was just wondering if those dials are original to EP as there's no SWISS marked anywhere on the dial?


----------



## DragonDan

Welcome! This is a long-running thread, but it was mentioned a few lines above. Current thinking is that those gray/ black EP dials never left the factory on a watch. Maybe they were a batch made up by Excelsior Park to sample different designs? 
A lot of the dials of this era also had a tritium "T" included, so that if the dial ended up having lume applied it would be within regulation.

~D


----------



## drechristian

Thanks mate! I see now, yes I've just started reading the thread last night. I'm on page 8 now!

One other thing as well, how do you guys normally dated back the watch from the serial numbers? Mine is 899881. For some reason it won't let me upload the photos from my phone.


----------



## waXology

There seems to be loads of these two-toned dialed ones showing up recently. Another today here: Cars and Watches » Other Brands

Did someone find/make a batch and flood the market? It's a little concerning so many original dials/ EP's are being used for these


----------



## drechristian

DragonDan said:


> Current thinking is that those gray/ black EP dials never left the factory on a watch. Maybe they were a batch made up by Excelsior Park to sample different designs?
> 
> ~D


Private Eyes sold this EP with the same dial not long ago and they listed the watch as "NOS", can the experts please comment on this?


----------



## drechristian

Apologies, I forgot to post the link. Please see below,

watchnet.co.jp/p-eyes/products/detail.php?product_id=3561

Can't find seem to find the edit button for my post!


----------



## Northernman

drechristian said:


> Apologies, I forgot to post the link. Please see below,
> 
> watchnet.co.jp/p-eyes/products/detail.php?product_id=3561
> 
> Can't find seem to find the edit button for my post!


Hi,
The case and dial is obvious NOS parts. I have an identical case in my drawer which I bought some couple of years ago. 
The dial is similarly a NOS/Service dial. As you may know I had a watch equipped with a similar dial.
It seems like EP parts are still "floating around".
The movement shots are not great, but I think I can see some scratches on at least one of the bridges. 
I would assume the movement is not NOS, but it may be serviced and otherwise ok. 
From the above I would assume the listed watch is an older EP4 movement with a new case and dial. 
Cheers!


----------



## jackruff

Nothing "obvious" unless supplied with accompanying evidence....


----------



## DragonDan

That's my question, who is getting their hands on EP4 and EP4-68 calibers just "laying around"? They don't seem to come up for sale very often.


----------



## Northernman

jackruff said:


> Nothing "obvious" unless supplied with accompanying evidence....


Obvious in the sense that it has been floating around cases and dials of exactly the same design on eBay for the past months/years.
The access to EP4/40 movements are also not that difficult. There are several "minor" brands that made watches with EP4 movements. One example being Jaquet.
A friend of mine picked a nice Jaquet up for less than EUR200 only a couple of months ago. 
Just need to know where to hunt for them!


----------



## Northernman

Northernman said:


> Obvious in the sense that it has been floating around cases and dials of exactly the same design on eBay for the past months/years.
> The access to EP4/40 movements are also not that difficult. There are several "minor" brands that made watches with EP4 movements. One example being Jaquet.
> A friend of mine picked a nice Jaquet up for less than EUR200 only a couple of months ago.
> Just need to know where to hunt for them!


Case: Cassa Fondo Acciaio movimento Excelsior Park per crono Zenith Inusata | eBay
Dials: Excelsior Park 1 Zifferblatt FÜR Kaliber JB 4 | eBay

(The dial on the Japanese watch is currently not shown for sale, but it was only some weeks ago.)
The case can be bought even cheaper (EUR40) from a swiss eBay dealer as well.


----------



## WatchFred

as explained - during the "Quartz crises" Peter Wyss bought up literally thousands (or more) of "dead stock" parts in the the 1970s and 1980s and has been selling those since then, slowly and at reasonable prices, often a fraction of what's typically asked for NOS service dials. He had a - now depleted - huge stock of Breitling parts he's bought when the company was closed down, same for Enicar and Excelsior Park; there are some US sellers that also seem to have quite a lot of EP and Gallet dials.

so cases and dials for JB4/40 calibers were and are still relatively easy to find, Daniel is right that hands are quite different, haven't seen those for sale for a long time - so you have to hope for a movement donor with hands that fit the available dials.

I'm convinced all recent "NOS" or "like new" pieces with this particular dial are "re-constructed" to give them a friendly name - but beautiful pieces.


----------



## Ceolintzin

40 years ago (Sept/1976) my father gave me this Excelsior Park watch when I left high school ... because I got 100 in all courses throughout the final year ... lol ... Still works well but requires adjustment and a paint retouch on the chronograph seconds hand. Unfortunately, here in Mexico is difficult to find reliable watchmakers that work on mechanical chronographs.

The watch was purchased in a recognized jewelry called "La Princesa" located in downtown of Mexico City.

Amazing watches I saw throughout this thread related to Excelsior Park brand... Greetings for all of you...


----------



## WatchFred

wonderful !


----------



## Trent M

Hi guys ,I have bought a Gallet 40 68 some time back and it's still with my watchmaker getting a overhaul. But I'm very curious as to the movements accuracy especially if it's been regulated . I would just like to know how everyone has found their movements accuracy? Thanks 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## kazrich

Very accurate . Also , hold it close to your ear - it's very musical !


----------



## Trent M

That's good to hear . Yeah there's something very soothing about the sound of a mechanical watch , and how they can sound different and unique. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## kazrich

On the subject of EP 40-68 -------
I thought that the 68 indicated that these movements started production in 1968 ?
According to Gallet World, the Excel-O-Graph used the EP 40-68 and was produced from 1965 ?

The Multichron 12HR ( High accuracy version ) production years 1965 - 1974 says that the EP40- 68 was a 'High Accuracy upgrade' - But from what ? 

Gallet records always looked a trifle dodgy to me, and their website really needs a firm kick up the Jacksy. It's for ever being ' updated ' yet I still find it wanting.
After keeping an eye on it for over 3 years it hasn't improved at all. Not good for such a revered watchmaker .


----------



## sempervivens

As far as I can tell the only 'upgrade' of the cal 4-68 and 40-68 is the difference in the regulator device, and I wonder whether it was an upgrade at all, or just more economical to produce.

Also, it is difficult to tell as few Excelsior Parks were produced after 1960, but I think this 'upgrade' was already introduced in the late 1950's or early 1960's.


----------



## Northernman

kazrich said:


> On the subject of EP 40-68 -------
> I thought that the 68 indicated that these movements started production in 1968 ?
> According to Gallet World, the Excel-O-Graph used the EP 40-68 and was produced from 1965 ?
> 
> The Multichron 12HR ( High accuracy version ) production years 1965 - 1974 says that the EP40- 68 was a 'High Accuracy upgrade' - But from what ?
> 
> Gallet records always looked a trifle dodgy to me, and their website really needs a firm kick up the Jacksy. It's for ever being ' updated ' yet I still find it wanting.
> After keeping an eye on it for over 3 years it hasn't improved at all. Not good for such a revered watchmaker .


I assume the 40-68 would be an upgrade based on the EP40 base movement. What the number 68 indicates I have not been able to figure out. 
It is for certain not related to 1968 as I have several 1950s watches with the -68 movement.
The same -68 designation may also be found on EP4 movements.


----------



## WatchFred

how do you date your "1950s" Gallet or Excelsior Park ?
designs remained unchanged until the very late 1960s when the new logo was introduced - as far as we know the -68 indicates the year this variation was introduced, but clearly not confirmed above doubt.
yes, there was a JB04-68 too.


----------



## WatchFred

here's a US catalog from the very late 1960s - you can see most designs unchanged from the 1940s


----------



## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> how do you date your "1950s" Gallet or Excelsior Park ?
> designs remained unchanged until the very late 1960s when the new logo was introduced - as far as we know the -68 indicates the year this variation was introduced, but clearly not confirmed above doubt.
> yes, there was a JB04-68 too.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: it looks more like the cal 40-68 was introduced c. 1959.

Look at the proof:

1. Zenith cal 143-8 (very rare) = Excelsior Park 4-68. Zenith stopped using Excelsior Park and switched back to Martel movements ca. 1959/1960. Therefore Excelsior Park 4-68 should date before 1960.

2. Case number 943177 = WatchFred's Gallet Multichron 12 which can be estimated to date to c. 1958. It has all the features of cal 40-68 (short regulator arm and movable stud on the balance) only it is not designated as such.

3. The first designated cal 40-68 is a Gallet with EP case number 943751. How can we date it? Case n° 933894 was dated by Gallet as "manufactured in our factory in Switzerland in 1958". The difference in case number is less than 10000.


----------



## WatchFred

well, I've stopped to believe anything I'm getting from Gallet, as much of that info was contradicting itself.
the "1968" claim was from Gallet, so, as I've said above, consider it unconfirmed.

re 3: find it interesting that u refuse to accept Gallet's claim "we have shipped the first watches based on the cal. JB40 in 1938" (with sound reasoning, btw.), but choose to accept the 1958 dating information for case 933894.


----------



## WatchFred

@sempervivens, here's another interesting example why I've almost given up on dating Gallets.

recent arrival, a lovely and very interesting Multichron WP; assumed it would be extremely early, as it uses the oval "form movement" cal. JVB42; thought it would be late 1930s or earliest 1940s, before the regular round cal. 04 became available.










only to pop it open and find Incabloc shock protection on it, something thought to start in the late 1940s for Gallet/EP only ...


----------



## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> well, I've stopped to believe anything I'm getting from Gallet, as much of that info was contradicting itself.
> the "1968" claim was from Gallet, so, as I've said above, consider it unconfirmed.
> 
> re 3: find it interesting that u refuse to accept Gallet's claim "we have shipped the first watches based on the cal. JB40 in 1938" (with sound reasoning, btw.), but choose to accept the 1958 dating information for case 933894.


Let me try to help and enlighten you if I may.

When did Gallet make that statement? If they made that statement, I think first of all it is quite clear that they mixed up cal JB40 and JB42 and secondly if they meant cal JB 42 it is still exaggerated by a year.

From the proof of catalogs we know that cal 42 existed in 1939/1940 (and from its absence in these catalogs, we also know that cal 40 did not exist yet at that time).

This is also confirmed by the case numbers: the oldest case numbers are for cal 42 watches.

The cal 40 as far as we can tell from the actual watches, arrived only five years later.

The oldest case number for a cal 40 I have seen, is a Zenith Sextan, and the Zenith case number puts it in ca. 1946.

Why do I accept the Gallet 1958 dating information for EP case 933894? Because it fits fairly well with all the other data I have.

Especially the Zeniths help with dating, as they combine the EP case number on the inside with a Zenith case number on the outside.

Some of these Zeniths can also be seen in Zenith catalogs, you know.


----------



## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> @sempervivens, here's another interesting example why I've almost given up on dating Gallets.
> 
> recent arrival, a lovely and very interesting Multichron WP; assumed it would be extremely early, as it uses the oval "form movement" cal. JVB42; thought it would be late 1930s or earliest 1940s, before the regular round cal. 04 became available.
> 
> only to pop it open and find Incabloc shock protection on it, something thought to start in the late 1940s for Gallet/EP only ...


Comparing it with my dating information from Zeniths, I'd say that EP case 832920 dates to ca. 1949/1950.

At that time Gallet used up some more cal 42's:

833262 cal 42 Gallet 
833666 cal 42 Gallet commander see gallet.world
834320 cal 42 Gallet

And why wouldn't they? The cal 42 is still featured prominently in the 1949 Excelsior Park catalog.


----------



## WatchFred

was referring to the JB42 in a round case ....
you did note the serial number on the case, I assume ?

and here is that information from Gallet you (rightly, I think) chose to disbelieve - written by the same David Laurence, CEO of Gallet US, you decided was a reliable source for that 1958 dating.


----------



## sempervivens

Sure I noted the number on the case, as I said I think it dates to 1949/50?

What's the thing with the round case? I guess in the beginning they used oval cases for the cal 42, but by 1950 they put it in a round case?

I'm not saying that Gallet dating that 933xxx case to 1958 is highly reliable, just saying that it fits fairly well with my other dating information. Similar to their comment about when they started using Excelsior Park movements for the first time: they may be off the mark by a year. No reason to start bashing them now.


----------



## kazrich

sempervivens said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again: it looks more like the cal 40-68 was introduced c. 1959.
> 
> Look at the proof:
> 
> 1. Zenith cal 143-8 (very rare) = Excelsior Park 4-68. Zenith stopped using Excelsior Park and switched back to Martel movements ca. 1959/1960. Therefore Excelsior Park 4-68 should date before 1960.
> 
> 2. Case number 943177 = WatchFred's Gallet Multichron 12 which can be estimated to date to c. 1958. It has all the features of cal 40-68 (short regulator arm and movable stud on the balance) only it is not designated as such.
> 
> 3. The first designated cal 40-68 is a Gallet with EP case number 943751. How can we date it? Case n° 933894 was dated by Gallet as "manufactured in our factory in Switzerland in 1958". The difference in case number is less than 10000.


OK would anyone care to take a stab at the possible production date of my EP40-68 Multichron 12 ?
serial number 955276 which is 11,525 from the earliest ?


----------



## VESPASIAN

Love my Gallet/EP - I will die with this watch...

















Cheers, Ed


----------



## sempervivens

kazrich said:


> OK would anyone care to take a stab at the possible production date of my EP40-68 Multichron 12 ?
> serial number 955276 which is 11,525 from the earliest ?


I'd like to help you, but after 1960 it becomes difficult for me to date the Excelsior Parks, as after 1960 I have no Zeniths to compare them with (Zenith stopped using EP).

And what do you mean by '11,525 from the earliest'?

However if you consider case number 933.000 = c. 1958 and 963.000 = c. 1972.

Then a little math tells me your watch dates to ca. 1968.

Is that possible? Could you show us a pic as a reminder?

@WatchFred: I understand that you were looking for an early sample of cal 42. If I may point it out, IMHO the early ones have rectangular pushers and a minute recorder hand with small arrow: so you can tell the difference even without looking at the case number.

As for the EP 40-68, my database tells me there is an early sample of the EP40-68 with case number 927477, which is definitely still in the (late) 1950's.


----------



## KP-99

That means, my number 963128 is around 1972?

















Best regards,
Peter


----------



## sempervivens

Peter, that's what I wrote, but it's only a rough estimate, if you can date it better, please correct me. The style and quality indeed looks like early 1970's to me, but I know little or nothing about Gallet and Racine.


----------



## Northernman

If only to contribute to this great thread I have the following EP / serials:

EP40 "Certina" - 932193
EP40-68 "Gallet" - 948790
EP4-68 Excelsior Park (Danish Navy) - 954848
EP42 Excelsior Park Mono-pusher - 757133


In terms of serial numbers vs years I can clearly see some confusion here. 
If we use the figures 933000 = 1958 and 963000 = 1972 then we will get approx the following: 

19509160001951918000195292000019539220001954924000195592700019569290001957931000195893300019599350001960937000196193900019629420001963944000196494600019659480001966950000196795200019689540001969957000197095900019719610001972963000



This does not match very well with the claim that "2. Case number 943177 = WatchFred's Gallet Multichron 12 which can be estimated to date to c. 1958". 
And: 3. The first designated cal 40-68 is a Gallet with EP case number 943751.

The numbering also suggest only about 2200 numbers available for each year of production. EP was small, but not that small?

Cheers!


----------



## sempervivens

If I may point it out, you can't extend the production numbers of the 1960's to the 1950's. There was a lot more production in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, I would date case 832920 to ca. 1949/1950.

So about 100.000 were produced in the 1950's, and only about 30.000 in the 1960's.


----------



## KP-99

The style looks like early to mid 70's, you are right.
I found a scan of this watch:








There, the watch is dated a little bit later, but 70s should be correct.

Best regards,
Peter


----------



## kazrich

sempervivens said:


> I'd like to help you, but after 1960 it becomes difficult for me to date the Excelsior Parks, as after 1960 I have no Zeniths to compare them with (Zenith stopped using EP).
> 
> And what do you mean by '11,525 from the earliest'?
> 
> However if you consider case number 933.000 = c. 1958 and 963.000 = c. 1972.
> 
> Then a little math tells me your watch dates to ca. 1968.
> 
> Is that possible? Could you show us a pic as a reminder?
> 
> Looks like your own estimate and Northanman's chart both point to a birthdate circa 1968 ?


----------



## sempervivens

kazrich said:


> Looks like your own estimate and Northanman's chart both point to a birthdate circa 1968 ?


Very nice, a cal 40-68 which could actually date to '68


----------



## WatchFred

well....
actually DragonDan invested dozens of hours to move the dating discussion out of this thread, documenting serials & movements over the known production period of the EP chrono calibers.
might be good to use it ?

https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/gallet-excelsior-park-serial-numbers-1486034.html

we are not here (not me, at least) to be proven right, "resting cases" or whatever, but to educate ourselves, aren't we ?
this discussion has driven away some true experts for EP & Gallet, would dislike to have to leave this thread too.

serial numbers on cases are the least reliable source for "dating" a watch to a production year - these were produced and numbered in larger batches and used up over years; we've seen and discussed some Breitling models where one case production batch lasted for almost a decade; assume similar w/ Gallet.

We see seemingly much newer movements in "earlier" or lower case numbers quite often - the manufacturers did not have FIFO stock management and just took the cases they needed to assemble watches without for a second thinking about numbering sequences.

Roland Ranfft assumed 1968 as the introduction year, afaik Daniel heard the same from David Laurence: here is another interesting "dating" I've just discovered - Galletworld describes a "Multichron 12HR high accuracy version" and indicates an introduction in 1965; caliber used is " Excelsior Park 40-68 (special accuracy upgrade)":  Gallet Chronograph Watch -. MultiChron 12 Chronograph










Joel Pynson (according to my experience among the most reliable sources) on Page Modèles claims 1938 as the introduction year of the Zenith EP-based mode4ls and says "During nearly 30 years Zenith will remain indeed faithful to the Excelsior Park chronographs calibres", indicating these were used until the mid 1960s btw.


----------



## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> well....
> actually DragonDan invested dozens of hours to move the dating discussion out of this thread, documenting serials & movements over the known production period of the EP chrono calibers.
> might be good to use it ?
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/gallet-excelsior-park-serial-numbers-1486034.html
> 
> we are not here (not me, at least) to be proven right, "resting cases" or whatever, but to educate ourselves, aren't we ?
> this discussion has driven away some true experts for EP & Gallet, would dislike to have to leave this thread too.
> 
> serial numbers on cases are the least reliable source for "dating" a watch to a production year - these were produced and numbered in larger batches and used up over years; we've seen and discussed some Breitling models where one case production batch lasted for almost a decade; assume similar w/ Gallet.
> 
> We see seemingly much newer movements in "earlier" or lower case numbers quite often - the manufacturers did not have FIFO stock management and just took the cases they needed to assemble watches without for a second thinking about numbering sequences.
> 
> Roland Ranfft assumed 1968 as the introduction year, afaik Daniel heard the same from David Laurence: here is another interesting "dating" I've just discovered - Galletworld describes a "Multichron 12HR high accuracy version" and indicates an introduction in 1965; caliber used is " Excelsior Park 40-68 (special accuracy upgrade)":  Gallet Chronograph Watch -. MultiChron 12 Chronograph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joel Pynson (according to my experience among the most reliable sources) on Page ModÃ¨les claims 1938 as the introduction year of the Zenith EP-based mode4ls and says "During nearly 30 years Zenith will remain indeed faithful to the Excelsior Park chronographs calibres", indicating these were used until the mid 1960s btw.


I am also not interested in discussions and I'm sorry if you got that impression. I have however learned that what one can read in books or on the internet about the history of watches, should always be questioned. We all make mistakes.

The interesting point which you make here, is that Galletworld website mentions the introduction year 1965 and therefore cal 40-68 cannot have been introduced in 1968. To simply 'assume' that cal 40-68 was introduced in 1968, might have been a bit too simple as an explanation, don't you agree?

Serial numbers can be tricky sometimes, but in general they are about the best thing we have to date watches (apart from their style and movements). Whether it's Omega or Longines or Zenith, what's the first thing you look at to date a watch? The serial number, and that may be a case number and/or movement number.

Those webpages 'invenitetfecit com' which you quote as 'the most reliable source' are very beautiful and interesting, however they do contain at least this mistake: the claim that Zenith started using Excelsior park chronographs from 1938 and kept using them for thirty years (that would be until 1968).

This is a double mistake, because Zenith only started using Excelsior park chronographs from 1945 and used them only until about 1958. Therefore not thirty, but 'only' thirteen years.

The mistake is understandable because it is based on the 1938 advertisement which shows Zenith chronographs with _one calibre in two sizes: 12-13 ''' _This could have been JB cal 42 and 40 (if JB 40 had already existed at that time).

But the 1938 advertisement shown of early Zenith chronographs with two pushers, is actually an advertisement for Zeniths with Martel movements!

The new Martel chronograph with two pushers was truly one calibre only, that was available in different sizes such as 12-13 '''

Zenith always used the Martel chronographs from ca. 1934 until 1969.

Martel watch co unfortunately is not that well known; apparently there are even books that suggest that Martel was only a part of Universal. So I decided to write a thread about it to which many have contributed and especially the very reliable source Nicola1960 has contributed a lot: Martel history.

Of course that thread also contains mistakes (1). For instance I suggested there that Zenith may have started using Excelsior Park chronographs in 1942. Now I know this piece of knowledge was not complete: I'm certain now (years of experience later) that Zenith only started using Excelsior Park chronograph movements ca. 1945/46.

There it should also become interesting for Excelsior Park aficionados, as these Zeniths are at the same time the oldest known samples of JB cal 4: as I could deduct from the excellent thread on Excelsior park case numbers by DragonDan.

But that's another history. Sorry to have hi-jacked this thread so far ;-)

 (1) Another mistake which I made on page 1 of the Martel history thread, is the information (found on the Universal Genève website) that Universal Genève and therefore Martel in 1932 created _the first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers._ This I have corrected on page 9 of that thread (see here). The first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers was probably made by Breitling in 1933 with Martel as a close second ca. 1934. However a few years later Martel took the lead with _the first wristwatch chronograph with hour counter _(patents were deposited in 1936 and '37), followed by the _first wristwatch chronograph with date_, the Dato-Compax (ca. 1942, see here) and _the first with full calendar and moonphase_: the famous Tri-Compax (1943/44).


----------



## WatchFred

@sempervivens; I know the Zenith/Martel history thread & often go back to it; one of the best on the web; still interesting that Joel seems to have conflicting information; sadly he isn't active on the fora, would be a true asset.

are we sure the Dato-Compax was really the first ? Just waiting for the delivery of the earliest Valjoux VZHC piece; it is from the "undocumented" Breitling years pre-1944 where we have no specific dating information per production year, but the case serial would indicate 1940/1941 (again not easy to verify, as we can only approximately date watches during these years by "confirmed launch" models of the same brand, in this case the Chronomat 769 w/ a patent application in 1940; earliest pieces are in a similar serial range ? but going off topic here too 

now, to Gallet and the "interesting finds" - I was not aware Gallet (Excelsior Park) ever produced a "normal" round case Multichron WP with a "form movement"cal. JB31; cases are the same size as the Clamshells, quite a bit larger than the Commander.

here is another example, earlier production batch w/ different caseback design; serials indicate this batch was produced before the Commander next to it; movement seems quite a bit younger, as I doubt they would switch back and forth w/ the shock protection ?










@DragonDan Daniel, not sure now re the "using up stock" theory we had; watches above indicate the Commander was still in production when the cal. 42 Multichron WP was launched and we have at least twpo different production batches ?


----------



## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> are we sure the Dato-Compax was really the first ?


Joel Pynson seems to think it dates to c. 1942 and considers it the first certain chronograph with date. I'm not aware of any patent for the Dato-Compax. I found a couple of advertisements (posted here) but those may date to 1947. One would expect that before creating the Tri-Compax Martel first made the Dato-Compax, but you can't really exclude that it went the other way around and the Dato-Compax is but a simplification of the Tri-Compax. I haven't really investigated this. To do so I guess one would have to look at actual watches and their Universal Genève serial numbers. A quick search landed me one Dato-Compax with a serial number 877835 (shown here) which according to an existing Universal Genève serial number list dates it to c. 1941/42.



WatchFred said:


> now, to Gallet and the "interesting finds" - I was not aware Gallet (Excelsior Park) ever produced a "normal" round case Multichron WP with a "form movement"cal. JB31; cases are the same size as the Clamshells, quite a bit larger than the Commander.
> 
> here is another example, earlier production batch w/ different caseback design; serials indicate this batch was produced before the Commander next to it; movement seems quite a bit younger, as I doubt they would switch back and forth w/ the shock protection ?


Fact is that you have an isolated early example with incabloc here. I see three explanations possible:
Either it is in fact an early specimen, the first Gallet JB 4 with incabloc, a couple of years ahead of the others; 
or the case was already 'old stock', a few years old, when they planted a newer movement with incabloc in it; 
or the movement was repaired at a later date because of a broken balance which was then replaced with a newer balance with incabloc.


----------



## WatchFred

sempervivens said:


> Fact is that you have an isolated early example with incabloc here. I see three explanations possible:
> Either it is in fact an early specimen, the first Gallet JB 4 with incabloc, a couple of years ahead of the others;
> or the case was already 'old stock', a few years old, when they planted a newer movement with incabloc in it;
> or the movement was repaired at a later date because of a broken balance which was then replaced with a newer balance with incabloc.


not "one isolated"; two, as explained & shown above, but I'll repost the pics:

















not isolated at all, as they are from different production batches w/ different caseback designs; serials differ by about 18.5k, both have Inca protection.

and they are JB42, not JB4/40, that was the point; an unknown Gallet model variation, not another dating attempt 

these cases are specifically made for the JB42, an oval movement in a round case; you can't just pop in a cal. 4/40, won't fit, sizes are quite different.

here are the size comparisons; Commander JB42, 2x Multichron WP JB42, Multichron JB40, Multichron WP JB40


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## sempervivens

WatchFred said:


> not "one isolated"; two, as explained & shown above, but I'll repost the pics:
> 
> not isolated at all, as they are from different production batches w/ different caseback designs; serials differ by about 18.5k, both have Inca protection.
> 
> and they are JB42, not JB4/40, that was the point; an unknown Gallet model variation, not another dating attempt
> 
> these cases are specifically made for the JB42, an oval movement in a round case; you can't just pop in a cal. 4/40, won't fit, sizes are quite different.
> 
> here are the size comparisons; Commander JB42, 2x Multichron WP JB42, Multichron JB40, Multichron WP JB40


Ah, sorry, I missed out on that, because you didn't show the dial for the second one, I assumed (without checking the serial number) that it was the same which you had shown before. Now I'm still confused which dial goes with which movement?

So n° 814317 and 832920 both have inca. They are the earliest examples of JB 42 or JB 40 with incabloc that I have seen. Still they are somewhat isolated as they are the only two I have seen with incabloc below the 900.000 mark; between your n° 814317 and 903220 I have record for about 30 examples of cal 42, 40 and 4 without incabloc.

Since there are two, I'm now a little more inclined towards the theory that these are early specimens with incabloc, a few years ahead of the others, though still can't rule out the possibility of other explanations, such as repair with a newer balance.


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## WatchFred

the one on the strap is the "younger", serial 832920; regular screwback case, serial outside
the 2nd round Multichron WP cal. JB42 without strap is serial 814347, two opening ridges on the side of the caseback (as seen on other very early WP designs), serial inside.

no, we can't rule out that both balances were exchanged during service though the "look" similarly aged; not too likely I'd say.

but the Gallet collector in me is much more interested in finding an apparently early WP Multichron model I didn't know about


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## WatchFred

here's what I'm wearing today, btw.; quite on topic and not too often seen; Girard Perregaux Olimpico.
quite tough to reliably date too, btw.


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## kazrich

WatchFred, that's truly Awesome !!


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## laikrodukas

cvhju said:


> Always happy to have the chance to show off my G-P Olimpico.


Wow it's really nice


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## KP-99

Hi,
i have found another very rare model with Excelsior Park 40-68:
A early Sinn flight chronograph build appr. 1975
In the early days, Helmut Sinn has a friendship with the owners of Excelsior Park/Gallet and he sold a few watches with this movement.
The case is the same as the Gallet multichrons with the same movement (see the engraved "H" under the lug).
I have not seen many of them with the black dial.
The first owner has used it on his flights with his own airplane.
After he has lost the pusher, he has put it away in his desk for nearly 30 years.
The watch is on the way to my watchmaker, because of the pusher and to service the movement (hope, nothing is damaged in there, only the hour counter does not count)

































Happy to find this beauty!

Best regards,
Peter


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## Trent M

Nice watch , and great find . I hope you get it up to scratch with little expense . 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## laikrodukas

Hope watchmaker will reapply the hour markers lume with some vintage lookalike lume


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## KP-99

The hour markers lume is original.
The watch was worn for a few years, after that, the watch was over 30 years untouched.
And i will not touch the lume........


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## DragonDan

Yes, Sinn and others sometimes used the Excelsior Park calibers. Varix, Consul, Certina, GP, Zenith that I know about. While not common, probably not too rare. Here is definitely a rare bird, a Sinn decimal with three subdials. This is one of only three known examples, the other two are Gallet signed, I own one.


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## sempervivens

Congratulations, very nice. Laikrodukas has a point though: considering the use of luminova instead of trititum numerals, is it possible that this dates to 1995 rather than 1975? 

I guess not if the first owner says he bought it in 1975: are you sure about that?


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## WatchFred

does not look like SuperLuminova to me, sempervivens, what makes u say that ? 
and Gallet/EP used "spearmint green" lume in the late 60s and early 70s; well documented.


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## KP-99

The former first owner has made his pilot liscence in 1973 and has bought this watch two years later.
He has had his liscence till 1985 and 1985 the watch was in his desk, because he has lost a pusher cap one or two years before.
He has asked for a service, but the service price should be more expensive than the purchase price (i think, this was not only a price for a pusher cap, but for an additional service).
In 2016, the first owner has found his old watch and went to a Sinn station in a great german city.
They told him, that they could not repair this watch any more.
They told him, that he could be glad to get some 20 Euros for this watch.
He advertised this watch for 20 Euros and i have bought this old Sinn.
After speaking with him, i spend another mid three-digit Euros to him and i have told him, that this watch is sought after.
He was very glad and could not believe, that he has earned so much money for his old watch.
He has told me the whole story of the watch and his pilot career.
I have no doubt about that story.

@Dragon Dan: I have only found one other black(!) Sinn flight chronograph with excelsior park (i have googled "Sinn Excelsior Park").
A great Sinn collector (only old Sinn chronographs, about 20 different models) has told me, it is very rare.
He has the same Sinn with a bright dial and is searching for the black one.

Best regards,
Peter


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## sempervivens

I thought Luminova, because of the colour and because of the absence of 'T' markings. Reminded me of the black Zenith Prime










If not luminova, what is it then? And if tritium, why is it not marked as such?


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## KP-99

Hello sempervivens,

the watch is marked, please look into the hour counter totalisator:









There you will find the "T" for Tritium.
Tritium could change his colour in brown or green. I do not know excactly, but i think, it depends on the phosphor part of the lume.
I have seen Omegas with tritium with different aged lume (all from the 70s).


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## WatchFred

sempervivens said:


> I thought Luminova, because of the colour and because of the absence of 'T' markings. Reminded me of the black Zenith Prime
> 
> If not luminova, what is it then? And if tritium, why is it not marked as such?


cearly Tritium for me, the watch is marked like all other EP/Gllet w/ a T in the hour totalizer above the "6".

here's a typical "spearmint Tritium" form the very late 1960s by Gallet:


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## WatchFred

@sempervivens; here's an Excelsior Park "spearmint" w/ "scientific" hands, let me assure you it isn't SL.


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## Trent M

Mine also has vivid spearmint as well .









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Trent M

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sempervivens

Thank you guys, don't know why I didn't notice that T inside the subdial, obviously I was looking for it at the bottom of the dial.


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## laikrodukas

Why does the color of hour markers and hands differ? Hand lume is not original?


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## WatchFred

laikrodukas said:


> Why does the color of hour markers and hands differ? Hand lume is not original?


actually a perfect fit between dial & hands lume for me is an indication of a relume. remember hands and dials were supplied by different companies at different times, using different material.


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## laikrodukas

They supplied parts already with lume applied?


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## Trent M

Also some old watchmakers will relume hands and think nothing of it . My guy is in his seventies and when I gave home my watch he said " I'll knock out the old lume in the hands and redo it " you can all guess what I said to that . Lol . These guys are tradesmen and look at things different to collectors , it's just another job to them , one of many . 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## WatchFred

laikrodukas said:


> They supplied parts already with lume applied?


absolutely (in most cases, we have actually seen Gallet/EP dials that seemed to have the lume applied semi-professionally; but most brands got the dials and hands prelumed by the manufacturers). still do.


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## bluemartinifan

*Excelsior Park with EP4*

Hi Guys, wanted to share this just recd EP with EP4 movement an super sharp case. Inside caseback is 952xxx. I have seen 1 other dial like this. 
Would love your opinions.
thank you!
Russ


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## WatchFred

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*

wonderful piece @bluemartinifan !!!


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## sempervivens

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*

I agree. Late 1960's I'd say.


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## WatchFred

sounds like a Navigator, but pics sure would help ?


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## bluemartinifan

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*



WatchFred said:


> wonderful piece @bluemartinifan !!!


Thank you for your replies WatchFred and sempervivens. FYI lume still glows dimly.


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## DragonDan

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*

Hello bluemartinifan, that is an interesting piece. The dial has essences of other models, but I've not seen one like that before.









It has the double dots at 12, like the Multichron Pilot









and the nice, fat lume lines and dark dial of this broad arrow version


----------



## bluemartinifan

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*








Hi Dan, I have only seen one other dial like mine. The attached is identical to mine, I am still looking for others!


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## WatchFred

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*

similar dial design on this cal. 40, serial 938xxx


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## WatchFred

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*

was just taking some pics of EP-based Gallet, thought you might enjoy these ?

Yachting w/ countdown dial.









recently found two black dial non-WP Multichron 12H after years of searching.









and the "torch dial", one of my favorite EP/Gallet dial designs


----------



## bluemartinifan

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*

The Witrand dial is very close. Interesting, I don't see the T marking on it. Was Witrand a retailer?
3 stunning Gallets Fred, love the Yachting chrono


----------



## WatchFred

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*



bluemartinifan said:


> The Witrand dial is very close. Interesting, I don't see the T marking on it. Was Witrand a retailer?
> 3 stunning Gallets Fred, love the Yachting chrono


 Witrand was (or is) a Jeweller in South Africa.

T is there, as always quite small in the hour totalizer subdial, above "6"


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## bluemartinifan

*Re: Excelsior Park with EP4*



WatchFred said:


> Witrand was (or is) a Jeweller in South Africa.
> 
> T is there, as always quite small in the hour totalizer subdial, above "6"


I see it, it's 5:30 am in Dallas TX and needing my 1st cup of coffee


----------



## Verdi

I have just spent 2 hours reading the 30 pages of this thread, educating myself on EP. 

Thanks Pedro, Dan, Fred, Semper and the others for contributing and sharing your knowledge and photos.

I read it all becaue I am after buying my first chrono watch and of course it will be a vintage. Well, after reading this, it is fair to say it'll be a chrono with EP caliber. 

I love the GP, EP, Gallet and Zeniths I saw in this thread. The hunt is on!! 
I'd like a 60's piece as I would like to find one in original condition with a good dial. Minimum 36mm. 

Thanks again!


----------



## Dan S

Here's one that is ending today. Nice hands, good size, and not too over-polished. However, no logo on the crown and the dial is badly faded. Not the one for me, but I thought I'd point it out to you.

60s Zenith Chronograph EX Park 4 MVMT SS 37mm Case Triple Signed Original | eBay


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## Verdi

It's a nice model at a decent price. Thanks for sharing it!

Dial is a bit too tired for me too. I'd prefer to oay double and get a good condition one.


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## sempervivens

Too bad you missed out on this one, this Zenith went for a very reasonable price, considering also that the dial is still in fairly good condition and the movement was also looking good. Very rarely you will find one of these with white dial in better condition. Moreover this was the bigger size model: 37 mm excluding the crown, which is also rare (they were available in two sizes, the other is 35.5 mm).


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## Verdi

I know, but I am a bit old school. I never bought a watch from ebay, I prefer face to face deals especially if I buy a vintage. 

That limits my choice but it gives me piece of mind.


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## laikrodukas

dial fairly good condition? it's partially rubbed off


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## sempervivens

Fading of the outer minute chapter between 7 and 10. The rest of the dial including the subdials looks rather excellent. I've seen several of these white dials with bad damage and also redials (no doubt because they are prone to damage). Compared with those, this one looks excellent and it is fairly rare to find it in this good condition. Beautiful original hands too. Also I've seen worse go for twice that amount.


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## Dan S

Yes, this is the watch I mentioned to Verdi, and this conversation is a great example of how condition in vintage watches is a very much a matter of personal taste. There is a lot to like about the watch, as supervivens correctly points out, which is why I wanted to bring it to Verdi's attention, but the fading on the outer ring, and to the logo and star was just a bit too much for my taste. The price was very modest.


----------



## sempervivens




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## laikrodukas

sempervivens said:


> View attachment 9471682


Now this is good condition and a beauty!


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## KP-99

Sinn flight chronograph with Excelsior Park 40-68 (after service)

























Regards,
Peter


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## Trent M

Very nice , looks great . 


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## KP-99

Thanks, Trend!
I love the watch......


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## DragonDan

I believe I've posted this watch on here before, but I'm wearing it today, so new photo!

Gallet Multichron pilot, EP40-68 from 1978(ish)


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## kazrich

My old Gallet with EP 40-68 was in need of some company, so, as I was desperately in need of a kitchen appliance within easy reach to help
time boiled eggs accurately, I made a bold decision to splash out on a vintage stop watch / timer. I was apparently the only bidder on the planet
for this unloved fading star and it duly arrived tariff free from a fellow UK vendor for less than the price of half a tank of unleaded.
It's delightful and works 100% accurately and correctly. I think that the light cream dial is porcelain and the hands (in the correct light ) are steeled blue.
The movement is marked 3364 and has a small compartment for spares ( a smugglers dream watch I should think







).
I can usually easily date watches to the nearest decade but must confess that I'm totally stumped by this. Wild guess 40's / 50's.
Can anyone help date it accurately ?


----------



## DragonDan

That's a solid find, plus being a rattrapante? Very nice. I don't know a great deal about the stopwatch side, but Gallet/ ExPark/ Racine made various versions in massive quantities. I do know those "spare parts underneath" were earlier variants. 

I've a handful of decimal stopwatches, just for company you know.


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## Trent M

Well after a long wait of over 12 months since I first bought my Gallet , today I finally got her back from my watchmaker. The main Spring has been replaced and she has had a complete overhaul. For my 7" wrist I think it is a great size , and I also love that it's quite a loud ticker . I look forward now to many years of enjoyment.









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## Ericherz

very nice watch! Great photo too. I have one with the exact same dial and lume 


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## Trent M

Thanks Ericherz , the lume does look good in the sunlight . It goes very iridescent.


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## Lanz

Hallo,

very fine to see so many nice watches (sorry my English is not so good) ! 
Here a original Excelsior Park Chronograph (ca. 1960), i bought it 15 years ago and the seller (a very good watchmaker) told me that inside the Caliber 4 is like new.


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## notaroaugelli

Lanz said:


> Hallo,
> 
> very fine to see so many nice watches (sorry my English is not so good) !
> Here a original Excelsior Park Chronograph (ca. 1960), i bought it 15 years ago and the seller (a very good watchmaker) told me that inside the Caliber 4 is like new.


Lovely, with my compliment


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## vasa

Dear Sir,
Recently i saw this watch from friend, its very tricky one watch, to me looks its some EP movement watch. its 36mm. Case number is 922---
At this point i dont have pictures of movement. Just want to hear some yours thinks about him.


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## WatchFred

could well be a JB04, but the dial has clearly been tampered with


----------



## laikrodukas

I wonder how does one ends up with a spot like that one in the seconds subdial
Did they crush a cigarette on it?


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## vasa

Yes its very unique dial especially with that spot(unfortunately). WhatchFred what do you mean could well be a JB04? But watch is so elegance.
Thanks guys


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## WatchFred

vasa said:


> Yes its very unique dial especially with that spot(unfortunately). WhatchFred what do you mean could well be a JB04? But watch is so elegance.
> Thanks guys


JB = Jeanneret Brehm, this is how the Exceslior Park calibers were called
red dial markers are clearly NOT original


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## Trent M

I've been regulating my 40-68 and I've got it to -3 seconds a day. Not bad for a oldie . I'm very impressed 


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## kazrich

[HR][/HR]I recently picked up this Chronograph with re worked dial. I've not seen this model before  and wondered if anyone could enlighten me ?
The case measures 36mm without the crown. The dial is black and the Dauphine style hands and applied indices are a deep copper colour.
The movement looks to me like EP4 ? The ' press on ' caseback is unmarked but is marked on the inside with a serial number 909464 and what
looks like a service mark dated December 1961.
The case appears to be chrome plated and still in pretty good condition.
I keep a 1960 first generation JLC Memovox with similar copper coloured hands. My guess would be 1948 ish ?











Excelsior Park is usually signed on the dial, but this one is written in capitals, similar to a 1940's stop watch that I keep.
Would anyone care to date it or seen anything like it ?
BTW it's very accurate and the chrono sets and feels exactly like the Gallet Multichron 12 with EP40-68.


----------



## DragonDan

well, that certainly is an Ex Park EP4 caliber. Interestingly enough, on the watches that Ex Park made themselves, the movement was always unsigned.

Here's a similar time frame logo


----------



## KP-99

Hi, I have picked up my forth chronograph with Excelsior Park movement.
I have three chronographs with EP 40-68, but now, I have bought an Excelsior Park chronograph with EP 4 without shock protection.
It should be a very early EP 4, because the back of the watch was signed with a date of 1944.
Earlier in this thread, there were people, who claimed, that the first known EP 4 movements were known from 1948 or 1945.
Gallet/Excelsior Park itselfs claims, that the first EP 4/40 movements were build end of 30s/beginning of 40s.

Because the watch is on the way to me, I can not proof my movement as an EP 4, but the collector told me all about the movement and it should be an EP 4.
The only pics of this collector:

















I will make some better pics (and pics of the movement and the serial), when the watch has arrived.

Best regards,
Peter


----------



## DragonDan

Looking forward to it KP!


----------



## WatchFred

DragonDan said:


> Looking forward to it KP!


+1 !


----------



## DragonDan

kazrich said:


> [HR][/HR]I recently picked up this Chronograph with re worked dial. I've not seen this model before and wondered if anyone could enlighten me ?
> The case measures 36mm without the crown. The dial is black and the Dauphine style hands and applied indices are a deep copper colour.
> The movement looks to me like EP4 ? The ' press on ' caseback is unmarked but is marked on the inside with a serial number 909464 and what
> looks like a service mark dated December 1961.
> The case appears to be chrome plated and still in pretty good condition.
> I keep a 1960 first generation JLC Memovox with similar copper coloured hands. My guess would be 1948 ish ?


Kaz, I should have answered your question some time ago, my apologies. Your watch is probably late 1940's to early 1950's. Of course the incabloc is a yardstick, but also the serial number. 
I'm working on a serial number project for Gallet, and looking through my archives, the earliest EP4 serial I show is 806567. A good deal before your 909464. Another telling thing, and this is actually very rare, all of what I'd call the first generation EP4's have a 'domed' snap-on case back, instead of the stepped one like yours. I'm at work so I don't have my full archive, so I'll try to post an example later on.
My Grandfather's EP4 decimal had a domed caseback, and believe me, I kick myself for not taking better photos of the serial number before I sent it off to Gallet a number of years ago for a refurb. I do know that he purchased his piece during WWII, because he was working as an engineer for the company that made the Norden bomb sight. So his watch, which my Father now proudly wears, would have been purchased in the mid 1940's.
Hope that helps!
~D

***Edit, here's the image of the domed back. Rather nice looking, but such a pain to remove!


----------



## georges zaslavsky

this thread is excellent, now I will also have to hunt for an excelsior park calibre 4


----------



## Dan S

My only EP. I love the way the chronograph resets. So smooth!


----------



## kazrich

I've been gathering bits of info regarding the differences in case and dials of the 2 'Jim Clark' Gallet Multichron 12 watches -
Trouble is much is from various websites and memory and I can't remember precisely where. Here's my provisional list - Please 
advise if anything should be added ( or subtracted ). 
Also if anyone owns both Val 72 and EP40-68, are the sub dials actually larger on the EP or is it the positioning of the Val72 dials
that make them look smaller ?
Questions, questions, but whilst I'm at it. Were both movements used at the same time or which came first. I'm still not convinced
that 40-68 started manufacture in 1968 ?



EP Sub dials sit inside the telemeter track . Val 72 Sub dials overlap the edge of the telemeter track



EP Gallet dial branding smaller and in capitals. Val 72 Gallet dial branding bigger and varies




When lying face down, the EP left hand lug is engraved ' H '. The Val 72 is not engraved ' H ' on back of the lug



The EP seconds hand curves with the crystal and extends to the edge of the dial'
The Val 72 seconds hand is straight and shorter.


EP ' Swiss ' central above the 6 o clock register with ' T ' at the bottom within the same register
Val 72. ' T ' Swiss ' T ' at the dial edge at 6 o clock


EP chrono pushers are equidistant from the crown
Val 72 top pusher looks closer to the crown than the bottom pusher


----------



## WatchFred

have both, but my R72 "Jim Clark" was on loan for a "Watches with Nicknames" event in Geneva; should be back next week, then I will try to measure if the R72 subdial size is different from the JB40 dial, but I think it is only the subdial position on the caliber that makes them appear to be.

the R72 pusher @ 2 do not only "look closer" to the crown, they are - like on all R23/R72 the pushers are asymmetric.


----------



## KP-99

Hi guys,
my new Excelsior Park chronograph has arrived and I love it.
It is an early Excelsior Park chronograph with black dial and the movement is an EP 4

@DragonDan: We have a new earliest Excelsior Park 4 movement! The serial number is 805419.
This number should refer to a year 1944 or earlier (see back of the watch).

But first pics:









The case is stainless steel (?) and in a real good shape.
The case measures 35.8mm, a nice size.
The dial is very nice and (I think) fully genuine radium lume.
The number "7" is the typical "crazy" 7 of early dials (Gallet/Excelsior Park).

















On the back of the watch, I have found an engraving "S.Hamilton 24.12.1944" (a christmas present).









The movement is an early Excelsior Park 4 without shock protection, but very nice and clean:









The serial number is 805419 (I think, it is a "5" not a "6") and that means, that numbers before that number are before 1944.









I am enjoying my new Excelsior Park watch. I love it.
Have a nice weekend.

Regards,
Peter


----------



## WatchFred

wonderful example, congratulations !


----------



## KP-99

Many thanks, WatchFred!


----------



## Tucayjordan

@KP-99 I believe that the case is stainless steel.

@kazrich I would only add that the sweep second hand of the EP has the characteristic shape of all EP wrist chronographs. And I share your doubts about that 68 was the year of introduction of the models 4-68 and 40-68...


----------



## Northernman

kazrich said:


> I'm still not convinced
> that 40-68 started manufacture in 1968 ?


And right you are. 
The -68 movement was introduced way earlier. It has been debated in other threads, but from memory I think consensus was that the shift to -68 (which is an updated version of the 40 base) happened mid/late 1950s.

Cheers!


----------



## DragonDan

KP-99 said:


> @DragonDan: We have a new earliest Excelsior Park 4 movement! The serial number is 805419.
> This number should refer to a year 1944 or earlier (see back of the watch).
> The serial number is 805419 (I think, it is a "5" not a "6") and that means, that numbers before that number are before 1944.


Absolutely! What a great find. I see a five there, not a six, so I agree. Since this is a christmas present, we can safely assume that the giver did not purchase a used watch, but it was brand new in December 1944.



KP-99 said:


> The case is chrome plated (?), but in a real good shape.


As WF mentioned, this is all Stainless Steel. I don't believe Gallet started using cheaper cases until the 1970's, when they were looking for any cost savings methods available to stay afloat.



KP-99 said:


> The number "7" is the typical "crazy" 7 of early dials (Gallet/Excelsior Park).
> Regards,
> Peter


I call them the 'squiggly' seven, I think WF calls it the 'coathanger' font, which probably rolls off the tongue a bit better. Still, how many times a day do you get to say the word squiggly???

Such a fantastic piece, and it really looks like nobody has messed with it. 
If you don't mind, I can use this in the Gallet serial number project. This is a great anchor piece, from which to base other similar serial numbers.
~D


----------



## DragonDan

Tucayjordan said:


> And I share your doubts about that 68 was the year of introduction of the models 4-68 and 40-68...


Pedro,
If you have some early xx-68 examples, I would really enjoy seeing them. From my archives, the earliest xx-68 caliber is serial number 931955, courtesy of Fred. As you can see, the logo is the "hands in G" logo, which from my research began in 1965.









What I base this from is a Gallet catalog that I call the "Gemini IV" document, because it has an image of that rocket in the pages. The GIV program began in 1965, although I can't nail down precisely what year the image is from, I do know it can not be any older. This crop shows the single "hands in G" logo on a page of twenty four watches.









"M" in the description is about as detailed as any of these catalogs....








Here's the rocket, in case this helps








It is quite possible this was a pre-production sample made for this catalog, and the new logo didn't hit the streets until later, but I do feel this shows that the -68 was available as early as 1965.


----------



## KP-99

Hi Dan,
of course you use my watch as an anchor point for a determination of a time axis for serial numbers.
Thanks for the nice words.
The watch is in real good shape, that is true.
And I love the nice dial and the even patina.
The movement works well, but I will send the watch to my watchmaker for a cleaning and new oil.
After four excelsior park movements, he should have enough experience with this. ;-)

Best regards,
Peter


----------



## Buddman

Really happy with this recent pick-up. This is a Garrard branded Excelsior Park EP4 with Côtes de Genève stripes, 37mm. Living in the UK, the Garrard branding has local significance as the former Crown Jeweller, and for yachting aficionados they designed and made The America's Cup. I found this very nice ultra dark blue Horween strap that matches the steel blued hands exactly. Made by Kaufman in Germany. .


----------



## DragonDan

DB, do you have the serial number on this piece? I forgot to ask you on the FB pages.
~D


----------



## Buddman

947701


----------



## pl2se

This is my first Excelsior Park. Any thoughts appreciated.

The watch is, I think, from around late 1940 to mid 1950. Movement EP4 has incablock which I don't think was present in the very early movements? Movement needs some work but today I have tried to examine the dial and hand to verify if it is original. I have owned a few vintage pieces over the years and I have also read a lot of post about vintage watches in general and a lot about dials/redials. One thing I can say for sure is that the threads often is full of people making statements that they are absolute certain is correct but they are not. I think that with vintage pieces a lot of things are more or less intelligent guesses. So further comments are my believes and guesses. Please feel fre to add comments and thoughts.















So this is the watch. Case with a few dents and scratches. Most of the dirt is removed by me. One of the pushers slightly askew. My initial impression is that hands and dials have the same color and structure (when viewed with a loupe) as 1-12 numbers.
Circle no.1 shows some paint that has came lose. Exposed under the paint is a "gold" color very slightly lighter than the outer seconds marking. Seconds marking no.2 is very crisp and clear (also see no.5 below). Color is very slightly darken that position no.1. I believe that the dial is done with a gilt technique and that the markings are original.










 At no. 3 (sorry - very small!) you can see the crisp logo printed on the dial. Especialy look at the circled "or" that contain very fine details. At position no.4 you can see that the luminous material is a bit "shaky". The paint are still within the underlying markings (gilt?) and since this is an old watch it was most certainly applied by hand. Remember the "radium girls". Even if it still could be a later touch up i doubt it. Radium mostly disappeared late 1950/early 1960 as far as I know. Also compare the luminous look of the E.P. with the Rolex picture below. It´s from Phillipes excellent post about rolex Gilt dials in Rolex passion report.






 

View attachment _V5C4781.jpg

View attachment _V5C4789.jpg









No.6 applied luminous. No.7 and around the marking you can clearly see some defects of the dial paint. When original pictured is zoomed in you can clearly see some cracking of the surface. Without magnification it´s impossible to see.







Above no.9 you can see luminous mass light up under UV-light. The hands do at a first glance not light up as powerful. But when looking closer its possible to see (no.8) that its indeed light up a bit. Considering that the applied radium (see the two last pictures) is much thinner on the hands than on the indexes it could be a normal finding?







Radium 226







It measures between 1,5-1,6 uSv/h = radium.


So, that is my thoughts. I hope that for some of you it was of some value. Many of you have great experience with E.P so any comments appreciated!


BR
Peter


----------



## pl2se

Still waiting for my first post to pass the moderators. But I did forget som questions about the movement:
The watch was bout in Sweden and did certainly not look as a "collector" piece. I have not been able to find any markings on the movement yet beside the "JXR". When "googling" it I have found some responses that not have been conclusive. Some claim it to be a manufacturer code (zenith, ballet etc) ans some claim it to be a code of the US importer company. So - what is the truth? This watch was found in Sweden. Of course it could have been brought here. But on the other hand I think that maybe they where not that picky when assembling watches back in the days? Looking at Omega Speedsters it´s quite clear that at least Omega did mix old cases with newer movements or use parts creating "transitional" pieces. I think that the watch being a franked seams a bit far-fetched. Opinions?
View attachment 12779385

View attachment 12779389

Br
Peter


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Post approved. Sometimes, the system unapproves first posts automatically so it wasn't me but a stupid machine that thought it was more intelligent than me! As for the watch, I would tentatively say it's genuine - if it's a redial, it would be quite an old one.

Hartmut Richter


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## jackruff

My guess is it looks all correct and original... Chronograph pushers are "askew" on many chronograph movements...

And nice watch btw...


----------



## WatchFred

beautiful piece, Peter, I see no indication that this is a redial.

the three letter codes are import codes for the US and were assigned to companies importing the watches to the Unites States, not the manufacturer. 
here is a list, thanks to Dr. Ranfft: Ranfft Watches, US Import Codes

JXR was the code of Racine Corp., the importer of Gallet; actually strange to see it on a EP-branded example, do not remember another example; maybe Daniel has one in his database ?



pl2se said:


> Still waiting for my first post to pass the moderators. But I did forget som questions about the movement:
> The watch was bout in Sweden and did certainly not look as a "collector" piece. I have not been able to find any markings on the movement yet beside the "JXR". When "googling" it I have found some responses that not have been conclusive. Some claim it to be a manufacturer code (zenith, ballet etc) ans some claim it to be a code of the US importer company. So - what is the truth? This watch was found in Sweden. Of course it could have been brought here. But on the other hand I think that maybe they where not that picky when assembling watches back in the days? Looking at Omega Speedsters it´s quite clear that at least Omega did mix old cases with newer movements or use parts creating "transitional" pieces. I think that the watch being a franked seams a bit far-fetched. Opinions?
> View attachment 12779385
> 
> View attachment 12779389
> 
> Br
> Peter


----------



## pl2se

I can't find any import code for Excelsior Park in the register. As far as I have understood it Gallet and Excelsior Park had a partnership where EP made movements for Gallet. Is it possible that the EP where imported by Racine Corp under the Gallet import code?

I guess that it also could be possible that movement parts originaly made for Gallet instead ended up in a EP watch not intended for the US market? If the serial number is engraved in the casebook wy watch has sn: 818221 What does that series tell us? (If anything....?)


----------



## WatchFred

Excelsior Park (or Jeanneret Brehm, the original company name) manufactured complete watches for Gallet, not only the movements; we see the precisely same models branded Gallet, Zenith, Girard Perregaux; Gallet was an investor in JB/EP (a claim by Gallet, found no records of that in the Swiss corporate register).

As far as I've seen, Excelsior Park wasn't imported to the US, that market was covered by Gallet/Racine, so your theory that a movement marked for Gallet assembly ended up in an Excelsior is a possibility, just as it could be a movement from a donor watch that ended in there, hard/impossible to verify.

Daniel is in contact with Gallet who have promised to help with precise dating information for the serial numbers.



pl2se said:


> I can't find any import code for Excelsior Park in the register. As far as I have understood it Gallet and Excelsior Park had a partnership where EP made movements for Gallet. Is it possible that the EP where imported by Racine Corp under the Gallet import code?
> 
> I guess that it also could be possible that movement parts originaly made for Gallet instead ended up in a EP watch not intended for the US market? If the serial number is engraved in the casebook wy watch has sn: 818221 What does that series tell us? (If anything....?)


----------



## DragonDan

Sheesh, I take a couple days off from the forum, and all this happens! 

Welcome Peter, I enjoy your eye for detail, and as a hobby photog, I appreciate your photos! 
Looking through my photo archives, I cannot find an example of JXR being applied to an ExPark-labeled watch. I would think, as far as import taxes were concerned, they should be two separate companies. Certainly a possibility of them using up existing stock. I've a few photos of factory watches with an 'interesting' assembly of parts; meaning odd hands, dials from different time periods, that sort of thing.

Gallet used up the lion's share of the ExPark calibers, and eventually absorbed the entire company in 1983. Gallet and others certainly used the same case/ pushers/ dials. As I understand it, around the 1950's, a number of companies worked towards manufacturing their specialties, as opposed to each company making their own complete watch. That's why we see essentially the same EP4/ EP40 with different names on the dial.

On your specific piece, I believe the dial is original. I have examples of Gallet watches, and many photos showing the added lume (radium & tritium) being applied by hand. That specific black color I've seen on a few ExPark pieces, so I feel that too is original.









Maybe buyers weren't as 'finicky' as us collectors are today? I doubt a prospective buyer from the 40's/ 50's would walk into a dealer with a 10x loupe in hand.

~Daniel

PS: Peter, may we have a movement photo? I'd like to know the serial number as well, please.


----------



## Tucayjordan

I agree that everything seems to be original. Dial and hands match perfectly (and this is not so usual in this specific model...).
I have not seen either another example of Excelsior Park with JRX (the US import code for Gallet/*J*ules *R*acine) engraved in the balance spring bridge.. 
The reason... who knows? 
Perhaps it was necessary to replace the whole balance spring bridge or perhaps the watchmaker thought that it was easier to exchange the whole set instead of repair a broken balance pivot staff or "repair" the spring of the balance... 
Anyway *so far* I would not say that a balance spring bridge with the Gallet US import code JRX engraved was originally factory assembled in an Excelsior Park chronograph (I mean the own Excelsior Park brand)...
This type of Excelsior Park chronographs were used in several Scandinavian armys and they have often engraved the three Scandinavian crowns on their casebacks.
DragonDan (Daniel) together with other Gallet/Excelsior Park aficionados made a thread about the case serial numbers of Gallet with Excelsior Park. And most of the brands that assembled Excelsior Park movements they also assembled the exact same cases and they share the same case numbers series...


----------



## Elvis Silva

Allow me to intervene, gentlemen. The following remarks where made in other thread, to no response. As this is actually the proper space to discuss EP, here it goes.

As I had anticipated to you, I purchased my EP4 specimen last month. Here it is:










It's signed "Balto" on the dial and marked "Suiza" ("Switzerland" in spanish) above the six o'clock position. I'll try to post better quality pictures, but, from what I could observe in person, it seems to be an original dial. Why it is not marked "Excelsior Park" and why the origin indication is in spanish, I can't tell: maybe a specimen made specifically for latin american markets? It's an interesting hypothesis, corroborated by an evidence: a fellow countryman of mine showed a similar watch exactly in this thread. It showcases the "Suiza" indication as well, in spite of being signed "Excelsior" on the dial. Except for this last feature, the watch resembles mine in every detail: fonts, hands, pushers, case... Even its serial number, engraved inside the caseback (860696), is near my specimen's number (858458)!

Style-wise, my watch looks just like the ones from a 1950's EP catalogue published on this site. Specifically, it looks like model 4010:










It seems that attributing a precise period of fabrication to the models above is a matter of debate. Seller affirmed my watch would be from early forties. In face of what I could infer reading this thread, I'd say it's more likely from early fifties. Is that so? Does the serial number give any hint on that?


----------



## WatchFred

“Balto” was a brand name registered to Levaillant & Bloch of La Chaux - and it is one of many brands we see on ExcelsiorPark-produced chronographs, from the well known like Zenith, Gallet or Girard to smaller companies like this example, I happen to own the same watch with a Varix-marked dial. 

lack of shock protection would probably put this in the 1940s, but we have no conclusive dating info yet.


----------



## DragonDan

As with all ExPark calibers, they made the movement, another company made the cases, and another made the dials. This was common practice during this time frame. Gallet & Co. used the lions share of ExPark movements, but still there are examples of fine watches with other companies on the dial. Zenith/ GP/ Sinn/ several others. 

Yours is a fine Excelsior Park EP4 caliber. It would have been made right about 1950. A wonderful piece, and looks to be in very good condition. Please post better photos when you can, but the movement looks like it has barely been touched since leaving the factory. 

~D

*edit
JINX to WatchFred 
We were probably typing at the same time


----------



## Elvis Silva

DragonDan said:


> Yours is a fine Excelsior Park EP4 caliber. It would have been made right about 1950. A wonderful piece, and looks to be in very good condition. Please post better photos when you can, but the movement looks like it has barely been touched since leaving the factory.


Thank you, fellows. Quite interesting informations.

Thanks for your kind compliment, Dan! Indeed it is in very fine condition, particularly its dial and hands. Case, not quite so, as it is not SS and exhibits, as expected, some flaking - but I've certainly seen cases in far worse condition! My impression about its movement is that maybe it could benefit from some cleaning. Nevertheless, all its functions work fine and it seems to keep time accurately.

This watch belonged to the venerable collection of Mr. Douglas Gravina, a prominent brazilian watch collector and member of WUS. Indeed, Mr. Gravina himself informed me that probably the piece's movement had never been touched. Its fine working and condition testify the quality of its making and the care of its former master.

I'll do my best to provide better quality pictures. This watch certainly deserves to be seen!


----------



## Dan S

Elvis Silva said:


> ... Mr. Gravina himself informed me that probably the piece's movement had never been touched. Its fine working and condition testify ... the care of its former master.


Hmmmm ...


----------



## Elvis Silva

badbackdan said:


> Hmmmm ...


Come, come, Daniel! You got my point!


----------



## Dan S

Elvis Silva said:


> Come, come, Daniel! You got my point!


Ok, I guess I can agree that neglect is better than active destruction.


----------



## Stigmata

Here's my EP4 from the forties


----------



## Elvis Silva

As requested by DragonDan, here are additional pictures of my EP 4. Hope these ones are better than the previous...


----------



## pl2se

Thank you for your input. Today I visited my watchmaker and had a look at the movement disassembled. Dial back was marked "47 JS". Could that mean that it was made 1947 by Jean Singer? The serial number of the movement is 168132. How would that pair up with my guessing on the dials manufacturingyear 1947?

I will post new pics when the watch is returned to me.


----------



## pl2se

DragonDan said:


> Sheesh, I take a couple days off from the forum, and all this happens!
> 
> Welcome Peter, I enjoy your eye for detail, and as a hobby photog, I appreciate your photos!
> Looking through my photo archives, I cannot find an example of JXR being applied to an ExPark-labeled watch. I would think, as far as import taxes were concerned, they should be two separate companies. Certainly a possibility of them using up existing stock. I've a few photos of factory watches with an 'interesting' assembly of parts; meaning odd hands, dials from different time periods, that sort of thing.
> 
> Gallet used up the lion's share of the ExPark calibers, and eventually absorbed the entire company in 1983. Gallet and others certainly used the same case/ pushers/ dials. As I understand it, around the 1950's, a number of companies worked towards manufacturing their specialties, as opposed to each company making their own complete watch. That's why we see essentially the same EP4/ EP40 with different names on the dial.
> 
> On your specific piece, I believe the dial is original. I have examples of Gallet watches, and many photos showing the added lume (radium & tritium) being applied by hand. That specific black color I've seen on a few ExPark pieces, so I feel that too is original.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe buyers weren't as 'finicky' as us collectors are today? I doubt a prospective buyer from the 40's/ 50's would walk into a dealer with a 10x loupe in hand.
> 
> ~Daniel
> 
> PS: Peter, may we have a movement photo? I'd like to know the serial number as well, please.


Sorry for double posting. Made a mistake with my previous answer to you. Please se my reply above (without your quote) @dragondan


----------



## DragonDan

Peter/ pl3se, I've responded to your PM. Too little time these days for keeping up here. I'll post my answer here, as I feel it's beneficial>

The number on the caliber unfortunately won't help me in determining it's creation year. Excelsior Park did use their own serial numbering system, however when Gallet cased up the caliber, they applied a Gallet serial number on the inside case back. With your serial number being 818221, and the font of the dial numerals, I would put this at 1942. 
Other than somebody painting the hands white, it looks all original to me. 
Gallet used incabloc protection on their chronographs starting in the very early 1940's, so yours would be among the first. If you have it, can you send me a photo of the caliber? I don't have a photo of an 818xxx in my database.


----------



## pl2se

Of course the replies should be posted here. I didn't think about that... So I have copied a pm to you here and also been able to post a picture.
I´m really grateful for your expertise and I´m sure you have a greater knowledge than myself, especially regarding these lovely watches. But this is why I ask - to learn. So no offense I hope?

Did they really put heat-blued hands on a black style dial? That would make the legibility very bad. Most "pilot style" watches from this era has white hands and I have also seen similar (sometimes exact the same) configuration of this dial/hand kombo. At the moment there is an identical excelsior park on eBay. I have also seen Zenith and Certina branded watches with these dial/hand configuration.

I looked at the hands in high resulolution pictures and I could not see any traces of the hands being repainted. But I will have another look. It´s quite interesting trying to find out what has happened to the watch over it´s long life. Under UV-lightning the hands show the same luminous glow (but a lot less) than the indexes. I thought that was due to the paint being applied significantly thinner.

Best & grateful regards,
Peter
View attachment 12891635

1. Cracked paint
2. Maybe paint has been applied to the tip of the minute hand
3. Lumen shows the same porosity as the indexes. Also applied with somewhat of good precision.
4. Aging of paint, especially visible in the centrum of the hands.


----------



## pl2se

Se comments on points 1-4 in previous post. Sorry for posting a bit "sloppy" posting. This is not my best skill....


----------



## DragonDan

Hi Peter, 
You make a good point about blue hands on a black dial. My thought of repainting was mainly because the paint application is "gloppy" and not what I'd expect coming from the factory. 
In looking through my photo archives, I don't find may ExPark-based watches with black dials. of those, the vast majority are straight rhodium-plated hands, like this Consul piece with an EP40


----------



## pl2se

So, now it´s back after a service & repair by Urservice i Norr, my local watchmaker. As always he could dig up the right parts. In my case a new pillar wheel. After that cleaned and lubricated movement. He also fixed the hat on one of the pushers. I must say I´m very happy for this one. Although I have learned a lot from you knowable collectors I still would like to find out more about about my watch.


----------



## DragonDan

If your watchmaker had a spare column wheel for an EP4 on hand, then he's a good guy! These are getting pretty rare, along with the mainspring


----------



## Tucayjordan

View attachment 12899419


As far as I know, there are 5 different types of EP42:

1- Old oval shape with thick lugs, inner ring and one pusher (the only one with 30 minutes counter).
2- Old oval shape with thick lugs, inner ring and two pushers.
3- Old oval shape with thick lugs, inner ring, two pushers and *a knurled rotating bezel*.
4- Newest oval shape with thinner lugs, without inner ring and two pushers.
5- Round shape case of 34mm, easily confusable with EP4.

The Swiss brevet (patent) 207550 from 16th August 1938 (thank you Emre!!!) is about the inner rings that were designed to increase visibility and to easily interchange the different scales (telemeter, decimal, rotating hours, plane steel...)

This Gallet with Excelsior Park 42 and rotating bezel folllows the 1935 pioneers like Heuer 358 pilot chronographs and Longines Czechoslovakian pilot watches.

So far I have only seen TWO examples of this specific variation of chronograph: one in Page Modèles (without any brand on its dial) and this Gallet... so IMHO it is a rare bird... My apologies Daniel... another one to add to the Gallet website...;-)


----------



## pajest

*What do you reckon? Museum or Scrapyard?
*

























I should appreciate your expert opinion whether this is likely to be an early (and rare) version of the EP4 or whether it seems an unauthentic dial.
It was pointed out to me that the logomark (i.e. typography) is different to most watches i.e. the one posted by pl2se a week ago (post #381 on page 39). However, after I have read this splendid thread my hope is rising again because I feel that it is very similar to the watch posted by WatchFred in March 6th, 2015 (post #161 on page 17). Though the typography seems to differ slightly and the case number of mine is lower.
As far as the typography is concerned I am not an expert, but I feel that this one is very similar to the one used on early stop watches, which would allow to conclude that the logomark with the stretched E letter was introduced at a later point in time. 







Do you agree? Or is there anything I am missing?


----------



## laikrodukas

At least the hands are incorrect


----------



## kazrich

Hello pajest , I think your watch looks OK, but the hands have been recoloured.

I keep 2 Excelsior park instruments
1. A rattrapante stop watch
2. A 2 register chronograph with EP4

Both sign Excelsior Park the same way without the extended E.
The chrono markings are in copper and are applied and are exactly with the same colour and oxidation as the hour markers, so I would
imagine they left the factory that way. Watch manufactures sometimes change typo with changes in fashion and image. Gallet have 2 or 3 different
logo's and they had a major share in Excelsior Park and were their biggest customer.



















I had difficulty in reading from a distance an Archibald Knox style clock in my living room. My watchman suggested applying Tipex typing corrector
to the hands and quickly solved the problem. Maybe the same or similar on your watch hands ?


----------



## Tucayjordan

About the hands:
-The sweep second hand of the chronograph is not original Excelsior Park.
-The rest of the hands could be original Excelsior Park but recoloured in white. 
-IMHO the main discordance is that this specific type of hands (in blue steel, steel or golden) were never assembled from factory together with a dial with radium numbers. As far as I know the proper combination was that if an Excelsior Park dial had radium, its hands had radium. 
I cannot give a clarifying opinion about the originality of the dial...


----------



## DragonDan

Wow TucayJordan, that is definitely a rare bird. I have never seen one for sale (that had the bezel intact), so your image is welcome. 
Where did you come across this photo?

~Daniel












Tucayjordan said:


> View attachment 12899419
> 
> 
> As far as I know, there are 5 different types of EP42:
> 
> 1- Old oval shape with thick lugs, inner ring and one pusher (the only one with 30 minutes counter).
> 2- Old oval shape with thick lugs, inner ring and two pushers.
> 3- Old oval shape with thick lugs, inner ring, two pushers and *a knurled rotating bezel*.
> 4- Newest oval shape with thinner lugs, without inner ring and two pushers.
> 5- Round shape case of 34mm, easily confusable with EP4.
> 
> The Swiss brevet (patent) 207550 from 16th August 1938 (thank you Emre!!!) is about the inner rings that were designed to increase visibility and to easily interchange the different scales (telemeter, decimal, rotating hours, plane steel...)
> 
> This Gallet with Excelsior Park 42 and rotating bezel folllows the 1935 pioneers like Heuer 358 pilot chronographs and Longines Czechoslovakian pilot watches.
> 
> So far I have only seen TWO examples of this specific variation of chronograph: one in Page Modèles (without any brand on its dial) and this Gallet... so IMHO it is a rare bird... My apologies Daniel... another one to add to the Gallet website...;-)


----------



## DragonDan

Here is the only image I've come across with a bezel case EP42


----------



## Tucayjordan

Hello DragonDan, I took the picture over a catalog printed in 1941. With your picture, as far as I know there are then two known Gallet with Excelsior Park 42 and with rotating bezel plus the other example without brand on its dial. I feel very lucky to have found this one.


----------



## benaja




----------



## WatchFred

I'm a bit unsure if these hands started life with that dial, a lume dial and non-lume hands make little sense?


----------



## kazrich

Does anyone know why so many Excelsior Park watch dials aren't marked Swiss or Swiss made ?
Maybe they figured that if you were smart enough to buy such a prestigious watch you might have guessed it wasn't sourced in China ?


----------



## WatchFred

“Swiss” and “Swiss Made” were added due to legal import requirements - as Excelsior Park wasn’t imported to the US as far as we know (we found no importer and no assigned import code) that might explain why the dials weren’t marked?


----------



## kazrich

Not seen a Certina with EP4 before. What do you think ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sublime-...647796?hash=item33eafaf6b4:g:8AwAAOSwHPNbAXFS


----------



## DragonDan

Interesting! I've only seen a couple Certina models with an ExPark caliber


----------



## Northernman

kazrich said:


> Not seen a Certina with EP4 before. What do you think ?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sublime-...647796?hash=item33eafaf6b4:g:8AwAAOSwHPNbAXFS


Only seen EP40 based Certinas, but I do not see why not?
The one with the black dial posted above is mine. 
A friend recently picked up a white dialed EP40 as well:















Cheers!


----------



## kazrich

Not sure whether this article has been mentioned on this thread before, but ------------

Page Modèles


----------



## DragonDan

Thanks KR,
I'd not considered sharing that, it's old information to us, but valid info nonetheless. 
Certainly nabbed several screen shots from this page when I first came across it.


There are some rare birds on that page;
One of only two known EP42's with a rotating bezel
One of only three known EP40 Decimal watches
The venerable Gallet Sextant

Good stuff!


----------



## Elvis Silva

As requested by kazrich, here goes mine: Balto Chronograph, cal. Excelsior Park 4 (late 40's / early 50's).


----------



## WatchFred

Itamaraty said:


> Hello everybody,
> I've just bought this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> Regards from Brasil,
> Itamaraty


quoting and reviving a post from 2013 here - another example of an "Excelsior only" & "Suiza" dial - OP had bought two in Brazil, but it would be marked "Suica" if intended for that market, "Suiza" is Spanish, so we have many options. does anyone have a clue, maybe Pedro @Tucayjordan ?


----------



## WatchFred

seem to have a problem w/ embedding pics, sorry


----------



## Elvis Silva

WatchFred said:


> quoting and reviving a post from 2013 here - another example of an "Excelsior only" & "Suiza" dial - OP had bought two in Brazil, but it would be marked "Suica" if intended for that market, "Suiza" is Spanish, so we have many options. does anyone have a clue, maybe Pedro @Tucayjordan ?


Well, Fred, I had also pointed that in this very thread (see my post). My guess is that these specimens could have been destined to latin american markets in general - not specifically to Brazil. Notice that my piece's serial (858458) is near the other piece's serial (860696).


----------



## Epicurus

Hi everyone. Having seen a bi-compax Landeron 48-based Titus chronograph my ex-boss had inherited, and especially having seen the gorgeous Girard-Perregaux EP4 on this thread's first page, I was wondering if we could, as a forum, commission a Sea-Gull ST1901-powered limited run of watches inspired by the aforementioned Girard-Perregaux. Perhaps we could have hked work on the project as well. What do you all think?


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Well, the members are welcome to give their opinions but the final decision rests with the management/administration. I have reported the post to them, let's see what they say. I should add, however, that few of these projects are finally realised.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Hartmut Richter

The Management/Admin states that it's perfectly OK for such a project to be organised but it will heavily depend on a substantial level of interest among the members. So, please respond if you would be interested in supporting such a project by the purchase of a project watch. Many thanks.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## OhDark30

Epicurus said:


> Hi everyone. Having seen a bi-compax Landeron 48-based Titus chronograph my ex-boss had inherited, and especially having seen the gorgeous Girard-Perregaux EP4 on this thread's first page, I was wondering if we could, as a forum, commission a Sea-Gull ST1901-powered limited run of watches inspired by the aforementioned Girard-Perregaux. Perhaps we could have hked work on the project as well. What do you all think?


Why not start a new thread to gauge levels of interest?
With a picture?
Have you approached hked, and what are likely minimum order quantities?
(Tucked away here your suggestion may be missed)


----------



## Epicurus

Good suggestions, thank you very much.


----------



## Joe_A

I feel fortunate to have found this one on Ebay several weeks ago and have been enjoying it since.

S/N 9581xx









I hadn't seen one quite like it until finding this thread some time ago. It is amazingly similar to KP-99's Sinn back on page 28 and appearing later after service:









An issue I see with my watch is that the top of the lugs may be over-polished. The bevels are there, but the chamfer is not. I have seen other Gallets sans chamfers. What do you think?

The back and sides appear unpolished:

















Movement?









Finally a glint in the sun which captures the concentric pattern on the subdials:









Cheers,

Joe

Edit: My MC-12 will need service as well as, similar to the issue KP-99's Sinn had pre-service. The hours counter sticks now and then though the minutes counter is fine and the watch gains only about 1 to 2 seconds a day sometimes fast by 2 seconds on the third day.

Additionally, the lume has the same sort of slight irregularity as with the Sinn.

Note also, as expected, the hands differ in hue and depth slightly from that of the dial.

I did a thoroughly unscientific evaluation of the Tritium lume. My 1965-ish Sherpa Graph glows (usable) for about one minute. This MC-12 glows for about 2 to 3 minutes when exposed to the same conditions . . . and my 2005 IWC Mk XV pilot glows for about 14 minutes under similar test conditions.


----------



## Dan S

Joe_A said:


> I feel fortunate to have found this one on Ebay several weeks ago and have been enjoying it since.


Great piece, and the cal 40-68 is particularly desirable. Your case has been polished, but I don't think that it ever had the dramatic chamfers that are on the lugs of the SINN. I believe yours has a different case, with downward angled lugs, which should have small bevels that have been polished off.

Edit: Here are examples: 
https://www.watchpatrol.net/listing/482017/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ga...Wristwatch-Excelsior-Park-40-NR-/202488977788


----------



## deepsea03

doing research on Gallet Multichron12 and its EP 40 movement and found this great thread......I'll post up pictures when it's on my wrist.


----------



## DragonDan

@Joe_A, I agree with Dan S's thoughts on the lug bevels. I think that Sinn case had slightly different chamfers from the factory than the Excelsior Park/ Gallet EP4/ EP40 pieces.

Most of the EP40's have lugs with a larger chamfer, like this:


----------



## Joe_A

I have not as yet found any other examples of a watch identical to my own, but I have seen the 24-hour two-register version (Valjoux 7730/7732) with a case with no chamfers or very small chamfers. There are two on Chrono24 at the moment:









and









While it is clear my lugs were polished, they may not have been as heavily polished - as much as I once thought.

There are also two of the Sinn versions listed on Chrono24 now as well. Allegedly, only a few hundred of these were made:

















Clearly the Sinn uses a different case with wedge-shaped chamfers on the lugs.

~ Joe

Edit: In any case, I have not lost any sleep over the polish of the lugs. ;-)


----------



## deepsea03

New to me 5193 Multichron 12 w/ EP40


----------



## DragonDan

Joe_A said:


> I have not as yet found any other examples of a watch identical to my own, but I have seen the 24-hour two-register version (Valjoux 7730/7732) with a case with no chamfers or very small chamfers. There are two on Chrono24 at the moment:


While not identical, maybe this helps. This is an EP4-68, which seems to be the most rare Gallet/ Excelsior Park caliber. Note the different chamfer on the lugs here.


----------



## Joe_A

I was not aware that there is a version of the EP4-68 24H instead of the usual 12H?

I see that most of the Gallet/EP watches that do not have the wedge-shaped chamfer have a narrow nearly parallel lined chamfer as you show above while some have no chamfer at all such as is the case for the Spillman case below:









(snapshot taken from Omega Forums)

To be clear, I've acknowledged in my very first post that the top edge of the lugs on my MC-12 have been polished. One day perhaps we'll see another example of my watch show up.


----------



## Joe_A

I've been watching an auction on Ebay - for a fine watch in apparently unblemished and unmolested condition though not recently serviced:

























It houses and EP 4-68 movement though not labeled as such.

I add it to this thread based upon it's overall attractiveness as an EP watch - but also because the price represents for me a new high level for such a watch as it just sold for 9000 USD.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## Hartmut Richter

I am sorry but I feel rather wary here. I would say that it is a definite redial. My arguments:

1. Dial is spotless, movement tarnished. The other way round is believable, this way isn't

2. I've never seen a chronograph of that age with the minute totaliser pointing anywhere but "skyward" when at rest

3. The "T" above "Swiss" looks pointless (no tritium lume - or lume of any kind) and is definitely off centre

4. A line drawn from the 15 minute to the 45 minute mark on the main _minuterie _should go exactly through the centre, in fact it runs slightly below that

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Joe_A

Hartmut Richter said:


> I am sorry but I feel rather wary here. I would say that it is a definite redial. My arguments:
> 
> 1. Dial is spotless, movement tarnished. The other way round is believable, this way isn't
> 
> 2. I've never seen a chronograph of that age with the minute totaliser pointing anywhere but "skyward" when at rest
> 
> 3. The "T" above "Swiss" looks pointless (no tritium lume - or lume of any kind) and is definitely off centre
> 
> 4. A line drawn from the 15 minute to the 45 minute mark on the main _minuterie _should go exactly through the centre, in fact it runs slightly below that
> 
> Hartmut Richter


The listing had some additional photos which I felt need not be added here. Link below:

Excelsior Park Watch

You've been around this hobby a lot longer than I have Hartmut, so perhaps you are correct.

1 - That said, I have seen quite a few Gallet and Excelsior park watches with very good dials. I suppose it is possible that they received O.E.M service dials over the years.

2 - If you can believe the seller, he's a person who is not very knowledgeable, or else crafty and wanted to seem ignorant. <shrug> Maybe the seconds hand was not reset? Maybe there is something wrong with the chrono?

3 - Yes, this watch has a "pointless" "T" on dial but no lume at all. This is not out of the ordinary for Gallet. For example, the well-known "Snow White" typically has a "T" on the dial but no lume. There are other easy to find examples.

























As to your fourth point, I can't add much other than that the watch is the yachting version and the minutes counter may be non-standard because of the count-down function. Other versions of the Gallet Yachting watch similar to the EP version have the same characteristics. No "T" for tritium on these Gallet versions:

















This one actually appears to be the watch that was just sold on Ebay . . .









Found here:

Regatta Yacht Timers

I'd have been happy to have that watch at half the price. ;-)

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Well, I am glad that you found some more with that querky minute totaliser layout. So it's not an obvious fake. Nevertheless, on that subdial, the red "0" marker is somewhat closer to the black ring than the "15" marker so I still have my suspicions. And 9000 bucks seems too high, considering the issues - and 4500 is still high IMO. But then, I don't know the market for these things.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Joe_A

Hartmut Richter said:


> Well, I am glad that you found some more with that querky minute totaliser layout. So it's not an obvious fake. Nevertheless, on that subdial, the red "0" marker is somewhat closer to the black ring than the "15" marker so I still have my suspicions. And 9000 bucks seems too high, considering the issues - and 4500 is still high IMO. But then, I don't know the market for these things.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


If you were to visit Gallet World, you'll note that sometimes the "0" sits on the line and sometimes not.

Gallet Multichron Yachting









I just spent some time on Instagram viewing a few thousand watches. ;-)

I could not find another Gallet Yachting Watch branded as Excelsior Park, but this does not trouble me as there are always many more Gallet watches of a given model when the same model was also branded Excelsior Park.

Here is an Excelsior Park "Snow White"









An early version I would suppose given the pushers.

Note that it is nearly identical to the Gallet version although the Gallet version appear to always have the "T" whereas the EP version (much rarer) does not. (I have not found a Gallet "Snow White" without the "T" yet.)

Gallet and EP produced the "Decimal" model in greater quantity as well. In this case, either may have the "T" or not.

I think the EP Yachting is an honest watch.

But one thing we do agree on is that the price was twice or nearly twice what one would pay for the Gallet model.

There were 68 bids from 21 bidders. I was a bidder, but I dropped out fairly early.

I am confident that this watch went to a collector.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## WatchFred

impressive result for a very beautiful and rare watch - it is the first EP-branded Yachting of this execution I have seen, assume this led to the bidding war.

@Joe_A: the "Snow White" above is a ref. 5000 "cadran simple", the same design was used in the waterproof ref. 5200, both models were produced concurrently, branded Gallet (most) or Excelsior Park

@Hartmut: that "quirky minute totalizer" is a Yachting countdown, watch is perfectly correct


----------



## Joe_A

Fred,

It was my intention all along to lure you into this thread. ;-)

I had searched your Instagram pages as well as other locations looking to find another EP Yachting.

I did not doubt the authenticity of the watch though I marveled at the beauty and the price.

I am hoping that the Gallet version can yet be had for 5K-ish.

I am on the hunt for either a Gallet Yachting or the Snow White in very good condition.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## DragonDan

Hey, look what I came across in my archives. This looks like a slightly later version of the ExPark logo'd chrono.



















Unfortunately pretty small source file size.


----------



## Joe_A

Nice!

EP 4-68 movement as well. ;-)


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Joe_A said:


> If you were to visit Gallet World, you'll note that sometimes the "0" sits on the line and sometimes not.


No, that's not what I meant. I was referring to the red "dash" beside the numerals where the dash for the "0" is closer to the black ring of the main part of the totaliser than the same dash for the "15".

However, if the concensus is that it's all genuine, I won't stand in anyone's way. If it is a redial, it is certainly a very good one.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## August68

Here is link to the closest similar/ comparable watch I recall seeing: 

Oh, I was not alloud to put link, but just go jones-horan page, link sales archive and write " Excelsior Park "
and You find watch with rather similar layout

There is a lot difference at serial number, nearly 150 or so, but kind of same time period

Gallet in unknown as an retailer to Me, maybe specialised at French speaking markets ?

I have always taught, that folks prefer watchies, that bear their own makers name at dial etc

Excelsior, if I recall had widest and best selection of their own chronograph calibers.

There was some other makers, dont rebember, that had caliber or two, Nicolet, Minerva ja of cource Lemania, that collapsed? and merged with Omega ( 1932? ) or something

All of these , Excelsior had most notable history and finest products, as all watch hobbyist must know.

Like Whirpool, that used to make practically all Europes best washing machines at 1970ts, but collapsed, when they tried to come to marked at their own name, at 1990ts?
and now lives only at one sub-brand-names of Siemens?

There is so many amazing tales at field of watches, like Angelus, that used to keep old skilled makers at they payrolls, so factories like Vacheron, when they didnt have
capasity to product another example of some special piece that was sold Maharaza of some Indias small states, could turn to Angelus to make another example at fast tempo,
but with strick confidence, that there could be no hint of maker anywhere, so it could be signed by Vacheron.

Angelus, had identical story with Whirpool, when they "wanted" world to know, how excelent they were, they ordered 10.000 pieces of Tinkler wrist repeaters from A Schild, but cound finally pay even serie of first 100 movements ( + work to create caliber ) and collapsed

Excelsior, withtrew peacefully and gradually, eventually making just model watches at another labels. like Girard Perregaux etc and really didnt have young folks at family to carry on, specially when demand of mechanical chronograps dwindled away

Never the less, at some distant future, collectors, that might not even had been born yet, will make their own explorers at field of watchies, and shall find out, that Excelsior might just be finest company, that made serial made ,handheld, intervall ( stopable ) time measuring instruments


----------



## Joe_A

August,

Here is the link I believe you meant to place:

Gallet Multichron Yachting sold by Jones & Horan

~ Joe

Edit: The one above sold.

This one on auction through June 2nd:

Jones & Horan - Multichron Yachting June 2, 2019


----------



## kazrich

Gallet in unknown as an retailer to Me said:


> Well August68 Not sure if Gallet had a retail shop in the year 1466 but, Err maybe you best read this ?
> 
> Gallet Watch History Time Line - GalletWorld.com


----------



## DragonDan

Nice link, thanks Joe. That Yachting is from 1958. I believe it's the oldest one I have seen. Scratch that, it is definitely the earliest Yachting model.


----------



## Joe_A

DragonDan said:


> Nice link, thanks Joe. That Yachting is from 1958. I believe it's the oldest one I have seen. Scratch that, it is definitely the earliest Yachting model.


Credit goes to August for putting us on to Jones & Horan up in New Hampshire. I'd not heard of them previously.

Notice the arrow on the count-down minutes timer and the tail (I don't have the jargon to call it anything else) on the small seconds hand. It reminds me of the difference in subdial hands of Enicar, early versus later.

I reckon the movement is an early EP4 with a light-weight balance wheel, but with a fixed stud carrier. No Incabloc anti-shock either?

The photos aren't the best but there seems to be a bit of discoloration on the dial. Still, it's among the pretty good ones for its age.

Cheers,

Joe


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## DragonDan

Posting images, for relevance.


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## sempervivens

Thanks for posting the images Dan. Ca. 1949/1950 I presume?


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## August68

Best Joe

I popped in at New York for 36 hours

Were You looking at white dial Excelsior?

I just saw one at Germany

Do You know any Patek collectors at N.Y ?

Reason to ask is, that I have their 1950ts window display, that have some 8 Patek ebauches cast in in clear perspex


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## Watch Alchemist

Hi, here's an interesting on an Excelsior Park watch that is almost identical to the Girard Perregaux Olimpico that was released for the 1968 Mexico Olympics. I've only be able to ascertain that the WITRAND on the dial was the name of a leading Johannesburg watch distributor for EP in the 1960s-1970's era. The only information that the owner gave me was that it was bought by the previous owner in a job lot at Katz and Lourie in the early 1970's, for very little. Given that this EP model is almost identical to the GP Olimpico version, I'm speculating that they ordered EP to desist from marketing such a similar brand to theirs, whom they had contracted EP to manufacture for them.

As the GP Olimpico 1968 model was limited to only 999 pieces, I can only imagine that this one must be very rare indeed. Could anyone on this forum enlighten me whether I'm, right or if they have seen the same EP model with other branding. I have included some photos as well as an EP ad of a similar watch, from the late 1960's.


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## wl1150

Watch Alchemist said:


> Hi, here's an interesting on an Excelsior Park watch that is almost identical to the Girard Perregaux Olimpico that was released for the 1968 Mexico Olympics. I've only be able to ascertain that the WITRAND on the dial was the name of a leading Johannesburg watch distributor for EP in the 1960s-1970's era. The only information that the owner gave me was that it was bought by the previous owner in a job lot at Katz and Lourie in the early 1970's, for very little. Given that this EP model is almost identical to the GP Olimpico version, I'm speculating that they ordered EP to desist from marketing such a similar brand to theirs, whom they had contracted EP to manufacture for them.
> 
> As the GP Olimpico 1968 model was limited to only 999 pieces, I can only imagine that this one must be very rare indeed. Could anyone on this forum enlighten me whether I'm, right or if they have seen the same EP model with other branding. I have included some photos as well as an EP ad of a similar watch, from the late 1960's.
> 
> View attachment 14472381
> View attachment 14472403
> View attachment 14472425
> View attachment 14472427
> View attachment 14472429
> View attachment 14472431
> View attachment 14472433


Beautttt


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## Bever

Does anybody know more about the Jaquet brand?
Bought this project chrono with the movement unseen and my gamble worked out fine when I opened the case.
Is this the EP 4 movement and how old do you think this watch is?

Chromed 3 piece case, 35,7mm diameter without crown
case number 860789 (last picture)

Much obliged, 
Filip

Ps: When cleaning off the gunk, I found a X I carved in one of the lugs - only if watches could talk


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## georges zaslavsky

My last acquisition Gallet Pilot Multichron from 1970 with cal Excelsior Park 40-68


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## Tucayjordan

Bever said:


> Does anybody know more about the Jaquet brand?
> Is this the EP 4 movement and how old do you think this watch is?


Dear Filip,
I attach a picture of the Mikrolisk web about Jaquet







And, yes, it is an EP4 movement.
It is post WW2, I would say from 1946.


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## Wgheng

I just get a Gallet multichron medigraph. Any can help me see is it authentic or fake from picture?


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## Dan S

Wgheng said:


> I just get a Gallet multichron medigraph. Any can help me see is it authentic or fake from picture?
> View attachment 15655828
> View attachment 15655831
> View attachment 15655835
> View attachment 15655837


Looks good in general. I would have expected the hands to be shorter, but Gallet assembled some very wonky looking watches with weird designs, so who knows.


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## zevon

Hi,
my name is Richard and I`m new to watchuseek and this was my first Excelsior Park watch.









Now I´d like to tell you,how Igot to this one. 
The first "good" watches I bought-back in 1995 or so, were an Eberhard Tazio Nuvolari,an Orfina PD and a Sinn 103,all with Valjoux 7750 movement.Then I read about The Zenith A.Cairelli in a watch magazine and fell in love with it,Years later I finally aquired a good one when they were still quite affordable.That`s when I learned about the other chronographs with the Cairelli case,The Bulova Marine Star(s) and the Excelsior Park Monte Carlo.






































Learning about the Excelsior Park Monte Carlo,I discovered that Excelsior Park was a much older manufacturer, building watches in their own name and movements 
for other companies like even Zenith(which I didn`t know when I bought the Cairelli),GP,Gallet,Sinn...
So with a love for Sinn too,I started to collect Sinn chronographs and other chronographs with Excelsior Park movements, which I will show to you in the near future.Ihope you will like them.

Regards
Richard


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## zevon

Hi
Excelsior Park Monte Carlo white dial










Richard


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## zevon

Hi
Jules Racine EP 40-68










Richard


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## zevon

Hi
Excelsior Park Multichron Pilot EP 40-68










Richard


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## zevon

Hi
Girard Perregaux Olimpico 9227

















Looking for an original stopsecond hand
Richard


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## zevon

Hi,
is this thread forgotten or deserted or does nobody have anything new to show?
This one is not new ,it has quite some Patina but I like it.




























Richard


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## zevon

Hi
Sinn EP 40-68






























Richard


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## zevon

Hi
a pretty rare bird here ,vintage Sinn decimal double signed with Sinn and Excelsior Park
























Richard


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## Emiel

Hello,

I have recently acquired an Excelsior Park, and I made some observations which lead to a few questions:






This is what I see/think:
I believe it's from the late 40ties, early 50ties (serial number is: 902177)
I do think that the seconds hand is wrong, as I believe it should have a small sphere as a counterweight.

List of characteristics:
Square pushers
No 'Swiss' or 'Swiss made' on the dial
No T for tritium (Lumed numbers on the dial, but the hands are not lumed?)
No coathanger 7 or open 4 font
It has a 'tachytelemeter' scale (in km)
Outer scale: tachymeter, next scale: minutes track, inner scale: telemeter (which is odd, I mostly see tachy, then tele, then minutes track)
It has blued non-lumed hands, but I would expect lumed 'syringe' hands for this age/model.
It has the Incabloc shock protection
No markings on the movement
Stepped case back (not domed)
No SS case
XII on one of the lugs (I've seen somebody post about an XI marking on one of the lugs)

So I wonder if all these characteristics add up.
I hope the experts can share some insights on this example.
Thank you!
Bart


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## DragonDan

Hi Bart, some of these things (numerals/ hands/ pushers) were tales about on the Facebook Gallet World page. If you don't mind, I'll answer these points.

Domed cases (which are my favorite) were discontinued by 1944-ish. My Grandfather's decimal had one. 
It is a Stainless Steel case.

On the scratches on the underside of the lug, I think they are just scratches from a case knife. The only stamping/ marking from the factory is the 'H' on EP40-series watches with the Hour totalizer.

I've been thinking about my assessment of the year produced. I do feel it is no newer than 1959, but could be as early as 1955. I'll have to dig through the photo archives to see if I can find some examples.

-Daniel



Emiel said:


> Stepped case back (not domed)
> 
> No SS case
> 
> XII on one of the lugs (I've seen somebody post about an XI marking on one of the lugs)
> 
> Thank you!
> Bart


Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Joe_A

DragonDan said:


> Hi Bart, some of these things (numerals/ hands/ pushers) were tales about on the Facebook Gallet World page. If you don't mind, I'll answer these points.
> 
> Domed cases (which are my favorite) were discontinued by 1944-ish. My Grandfather's decimal had one.
> It is a Stainless Steel case.
> 
> On the scratches on the underside of the lug, I think they are just scratches from a case knife. The only stamping/ marking from the factory is the 'H' on EP40-series watches with the Hour totalizer.
> 
> I've been thinking about my assessment of the year produced. I do feel it is no newer than 1959, but could be as early as 1955. I'll have to dig through the photo archives to see if I can find some examples.
> 
> -Daniel
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


Also, the movement seems a bit newer or younger than 1960 +/-

The balance is light-weight without added weights and it employs a mobile stud carrier. Early 1960s?

The stamping on the balance cock does look older. I'm wondering whether the balance has been modernized?

Edit: How about the serial number 902177? That seems older than the 1960s.


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## texaspledge

My Snow White came back from the service center. One interesting thing about the dial I've always noticed is that it has two Swiss markings, one at bottom as usual and one above the hour totalizer. 

This one was gifted to a retired employee by Otis elevators I believe. 










Sent from my SM-F926U1 using Tapatalk


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## Simply Vintage Watches

zevon said:


> Hi,
> is this thread forgotten or deserted or does nobody have anything new to show?
> This one is not new ,it has quite some Patina but I like it.
> 
> View attachment 15971591
> 
> 
> View attachment 15971592
> 
> 
> View attachment 15971594
> 
> 
> Richard


As requested, here is something new 😉.
It carries the rarer interchangeable bezel that is shown on the original patent drawings 😃.







.


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## gh1234

lovely pictures. some amazing condition EPs


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## Simply Vintage Watches

gh1234 said:


> lovely pictures. some amazing condition EPs


Thank you, I love that little watch 😃.


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## TudGan

..Hi..Sry my english..I am new here..My father was a Watch colector and i Find some watches on him..I not know much about watches and I post here becouse i find a watch Excelsior Park..new..never worn..in original cloth bag and brown paper..U can Tell me more info about this watch?..what calibre is?..Year of production?.. I read here and i see DragonDan know many info about this watches but not know His mail..maibe u can help me whit that too..My email is [email protected].. Thank u..





  








C4D1E378-1BD8-43DD-82EE-CBAC0748EECE.jpeg




__
TudGan


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5 mo ago




Foto 1










  








BF33D1F2-2DFB-4AA5-9E4C-CA05C3D0E494.jpeg




__
TudGan


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5 mo ago




Foto 2


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## TudGan

..Maybe @DragonDan can help me Plz..


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