# Citizen Caliber 2100 Questions



## MID

Am I to understand correctly, that the Caliber 2100 is a kind of meca-quartz, with a mechanical chronograph combined with an underlying quartz movement? Does anyone have more information on this?


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## Caraptor

The man to elaborate on this watch is absolutely MINIDriver. He has a good video review and links to some outside info. I love this watch, and it's going to be the next one I buy (unless I enter some other watch phase between now and then).


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## Motorcityjoe

For your reading pleasure MID. Should help answer most of your questions.b-)

http://www.watchbizz.com/archive/wt_2006_02/WT_2006_02_114.pdf


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## Daemos

Now it says it moves in 1/5 of a second for the chronograph which is supposed to be amazing, but why do some other quartz watches (including citizen) have chronographs that advertise:

"Stopwatch can count up to 60 min/12hr/24hr in 1/20 second increments"

Isn't 1/20th more precise than 1/5th? or am I missing something here?


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## Catalin

Daemos said:


> Now it says it moves in 1/5 of a second for the chronograph which is supposed to be amazing, but why do some other quartz watches (including citizen) have chronographs that advertise:
> 
> "Stopwatch can count up to 60 min/12hr/24hr in 1/20 second increments"
> 
> Isn't 1/20th more precise than 1/5th? or am I missing something here?


It is, but those only MEASURE with that precision (and display at the END) - there is no hand that moves that often (and on the models where such fast movements are present the power consumption can be a problem - fortunately not such a big one on a solar watch).


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## sawyer

I also have a similar question. The little hand on the 60 min dial on my Citizen *AT0550-11X * is the "fly-back" type. The moment you press reset it goes back in a blink. Does that mean that the H500 movement is also meca-quartz?


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## TimeSeeker

On the 2100, the large second hand which is the chrono hand is a fly back type.
I have the 2100 Titanium/Sapphire and is an absolutely AMAZING watch.


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## MINIDriver

sawyer said:


> I also have a similar question. The little hand on the 60 min dial on my Citizen *AT0550-11X * is the "fly-back" type. The moment you press reset it goes back in a blink. Does that mean that the H500 movement is also meca-quartz?


No, is not. The seconds hand do a full turn around the dial before returning to zero. The H500 chronograph measures time in 1 sec intervals up to 60 minutes.

In the 2100, the chronograph measures in 1/5 sec intervals up to 12 hours.

Here is another of my fav articles on the 2100:

http://quartzimodo.com/articles/chrono-wars-citizen-cal-2100-vs-seiko-7l22/


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## MINIDriver

MID said:


> Am I to understand correctly, that the Caliber 2100 is a kind of meca-quartz, with a mechanical chronograph combined with an underlying quartz movement? Does anyone have more information on this?


I would think "hybrid" movement would probably be the better term to describe the E210 caliber used in this watch.


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## sawyer

MINIDriver said:


> No, is not. The seconds hand do a full turn around the dial before returning to zero. The H500 chronograph measures time in 1 sec intervals up to 60 minutes.
> 
> In the 2100, the chronograph measures in 1/5 sec intervals up to 12 hours.
> 
> Here is another of my fav articles on the 2100:
> 
> http://quartzimodo.com/articles/chrono-wars-citizen-cal-2100-vs-seiko-7l22/


I wasn't reffering to the seconds hand...pardon my mistake. I was talking about the little hand counting the minutes(up to 60 minutes). When I reset it it doesn't do a full turn around the dial, as the seconds hand does. It just jumps to 0/60. Isn't that called fly-back?! I'm new to the term! Thank you!


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## aladin_sane

I have been watching the comments about the e210 drift a little off course for a while now. This is a mechanically actuated chronograph, not a mechanical chronograph, and not a flyback chronograph. This means that when you start or stop the chronograph, the force of you pushing the button trips a hammer that strikes a cam that snaps the hands back to the zero position. This is also how a mechanical chronograph is reset to zero. On a true flyback chronograph, the hands snap to zero, and then immediately start timing again. The e210 does not do this. Also, the movement of the second hand although it mimics a mechanical chrono in motion is electrically driven. There is no balance wheel spinning back and forth imparting this motion from a mechanical spring to the chronohands, it is done with electric motors. While this is a great movement that comes in a great series of watches, it is not a mechanical chronograph, nor a flyback chronograph.

_Sorry for the rant._


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## MINIDriver

aladin_sane said:


> I have been watching the comments about the e210 drift a little off course for a while now. This is a mechanically actuated chronograph, not a mechanical chronograph, and not a flyback chronograph. This means that when you start or stop the chronograph, the force of you pushing the button trips a hammer that strikes a cam that snaps the hands back to the zero position. This is also how a mechanical chronograph is reset to zero. On a true flyback chronograph, the hands snap to zero, and then immediately start timing again. The e210 does not do this. Also, the movement of the second hand although it mimics a mechanical chrono in motion is electrically driven. There is no balance wheel spinning back and forth imparting this motion from a mechanical spring to the chronohands, it is done with electric motors. While this is a great movement that comes in a great series of watches, it is not a mechanical chronograph, nor a flyback chronograph.
> 
> _Sorry for the rant._


Please provide links that backup these claims.

Also....

According to Citizen:

*• Fly-Back A chronograph that, when reset, rapidly moves anti-clockwise back to the 12 O'clock position. The hand moves so rapidly it is seen to 'Fly-Back' in contrast with other chronograph watches that advance (clockwise) more slowly to their original position.*

I am just the messenger, so don't shoot me.


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## aladin_sane

From the linked article above.

•​​​​​​​​​Unlike standard quartz chronograph seconds
hands, which advance once per second, Calibre
2100's center chronograph seconds hand advances
in 1/5-second increments for greater accuracy,
as in a mechanical watch. Subdials at the
3 and 9 o'clock positions measure 60-minute
and 12-hour intervals, respectively.​
•​​​​​​​​​Also like a mechanical watch is Calibre 2100's​
instantaneous zero reset mechanism, the first
ever in an analog quartz watch, Citizen says. In
a standard quartz watch, the chronograph
hands return to zero in a long clockwise sweep
around the dial. In Calibre 2100, the hands are
quicker than the eye; they snap back to zero instantaneously,
allowing for faster, more accurate
time measurement. Worth noting is what
Citizen calls the "strong click" chronograph
start and stop buttons that give "an extra measure
of confidence when precise time measurement
is required." The buttons make a distinct
click when pushed, a feature more characteristic​of mechanical than quartz watches.

Notice the parts I highlighted. They all make reference to features described as being like a mechanical chronograph. If it where truly mechanical, I don't see why they would describe them as being like a mechanical.

And from wikipedia

A *flyback chronograph* is a complication watch, which uses a single push of the button for stopping, resetting and restarting the chronograph function of the watch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_chronograph If you want to read the rest.

The hands on my 6138 fly back when reset, but because they don't instantly restart, it is not a flyback chronograph. The Seiko 7016 is an example of a true flyback chronograph.

If you still assert that the e210 is a mechanical chronograph, tell me what drives it.

I don't mean to lessen your enthusiasm for this watch, I just feel you are spreading a little misinformation about it.


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## MID

Would be it be fair to compare the 2100 to IWC's meca-quartz chronograph, not with respect to design specifics, perhaps, but maybe in overall concept of a hybrid movement?

Having read the discussion, it seems that Citizen's use of the term "fly-back" to refer to the 2100 is a bit non-standard. Most who use the tern "fly-back" mechanism take it mean a _retour en vol_ mechanism, one in which the chronograph can be reset instantaneously to zero without stopping the chronograph first. Citizen seems to use the term to mean "mechanical reset."

The 2100 still looks like a terrific and inetersting movement, and a real contribution to chronograph design.


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## MINIDriver

MID said:


> Would be it be fair to compare the 2100 to IWC's meca-quartz chronograph, not with respect to design specifics, perhaps, but maybe in overall concept of a hybrid movement?
> 
> Having read the discussion, it seems that Citizen's use of the term "fly-back" to refer to the 2100 is a bit non-standard. Most who use the tern "fly-back" mechanism take it mean a _retour en vol_ mechanism, one in which the chronograph can be reset instantaneously to zero without stopping the chronograph first. Citizen seems to use the term to mean "mechanical reset."
> 
> The 2100 still looks like a terrific and inetersting movement, and a real contribution to chronograph design.


Very well said.


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## aladin_sane

Can anyone come up with a movement diagram for the e210? I did a quick search, and I can't find one. 

Mini, I hope you understand, I am not trying to talk down this movement, I think it is great, and I am strongly considering buying one. I just think you are overstating the facts slightly.


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## MINIDriver

Unfortunately I have not been able to locate a technical diagram of the E210 either...


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## cobradav

Is there further clue to this possible non-pure mechanical "fly-back" in this portion of the article? I certainly do not know. But I do know it is on my short list for future acquisition

All of these features and functions make
Calibre 2100 an unusually complex quartz
movement (more proof: it contains not one​stepping motor but three).


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## Caraptor

MINIDriver said:


> Unfortunately I have not been able to locate a technical diagram of the E210 either...


See if this helps...
View attachment View 21001.pdf


Spoiler Alert! 
It doesn't! See aladin_sane's gentle face slap below.


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## aladin_sane

sorry, but that is not the movment we are talking about. That looks like a small quartz dress watch movement.


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## Caraptor

aladin_sane said:


> sorry, but that is not the movment we are talking about. That looks like a small quartz dress watch movement.


LOL! That's the diagram citizen just sent me when I asked for movement diagram of the e210 movement.

But then they just sent me this, which may settle the issue to a general degree.

"HI
Unfortunately, we do not have a movement diagram of the E210 movement as all servicing of this is done by highly specialized teams in Japan. They do not make this information available to us.
We can tell you this movement is quartz based and the flyback chronograph mimics a mechanical watch, but does not have "mechanical watch" functions as is being speculated on the Seiko Citizen website."

I assume the Seiko Citizen website is us!


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## citizenwatchco

Unfortunately, movement diagrams are not available as all repair of these movements is done in Japan by highly specialized teams.

These movements are quartz based that feature 294 different components. THe flyback chronograph mimics a "mechanical" watch style of return. It is not mechnical in nature as you would compare to a mechanical timepiece. This "snap" of the push button was a particular challenge for the development teams to accomplish.

We have a display of this movement for which we will take a picture for you folks and try to get this posted by the end of tomorrow.

Sincerely
Customer Service
COA



cobradav said:


> Is there further clue to this possible non-pure mechanical "fly-back" in this portion of the article? I certainly do not know. But I do know it is on my short list for future acquisition
> 
> All of these features and functions make
> Calibre 2100 an unusually complex quartz
> movement (more proof: it contains not one​
> stepping motor but three).


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## MINIDriver

Thank you, COA. Much appreciated.


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## Caraptor

citizenwatchco said:


> Unfortunately, movement diagrams are not available as all repair of these movements is done in Japan by highly specialized teams.
> 
> These movements are quartz based that feature 294 different components. THe flyback chronograph mimics a "mechanical" watch style of return. It is not mechnical in nature as you would compare to a mechanical timepiece. This "snap" of the push button was a particular challenge for the development teams to accomplish.
> 
> We have a display of this movement for which we will take a picture for you folks and try to get this posted by the end of tomorrow.
> 
> Sincerely
> Customer Service
> COA


LOL! Citizen to the rescue! Can't wait to see those pics.


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## aladin_sane

Thank you so much Citizen for your valued participation in this and other watch forums. I only wish Seiko was as involved.


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## Catalin

aladin_sane said:


> ...
> And from wikipedia
> 
> A *flyback chronograph* is a complication watch, which uses a single push of the button for stopping, resetting and restarting the chronograph function of the watch.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_chronograph If you want to read the rest.
> 
> The hands on my 6138 fly back when reset, but because they don't instantly restart, it is not a flyback chronograph. The Seiko 7016 is an example of a true flyback chronograph.
> ...


Citizen - and especially COA - is known to have made many claims which are not 100% false but not quite 100% true either - and two are very often made in relation to caliber 2100 - one is that it is 'hand assembled' (I have also seen 'hand made' but that one was waaay over the top - for instance http://www.tp178.com/ct/kari/mp7/article.htm is a hand-made watch) and this second one with the flyback is probably the second - the first one is hard to be proven wrong since almost every single complicated watch has one or two (simple) operations that are done by a human hand, so as long as you do not say '100% hand assembled' the lie is not directly clear ... and the second one with the flyback is also a matter of semantics, since only very few people really know the correct initial definition of flyback - for everybody else today a very quick reset is almost the same ;-) (but I have seen the same mistake done in relation to swiss watches, so this one is not so much limited to Citizen).

That being said caliber 2100 is a special quartz chrono - I do not believe that it also has the clutch that is typical to single-power mechanical chrono calibers (and I would rather expect a design with two steppers - 3 with the power reserve), but I believe it does have the 'column wheel' which is generally a very typical mechanical design ... (and is not present in the much higher-priced Campanola grand complications).


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## citizenwatchco

this is a very poor rendition and we will get a better one posted, but just to wet your appetites












citizenwatchco said:


> Unfortunately, movement diagrams are not available as all repair of these movements is done in Japan by highly specialized teams.
> 
> These movements are quartz based that feature 294 different components. THe flyback chronograph mimics a "mechanical" watch style of return. It is not mechnical in nature as you would compare to a mechanical timepiece. This "snap" of the push button was a particular challenge for the development teams to accomplish.
> 
> We have a display of this movement for which we will take a picture for you folks and try to get this posted by the end of tomorrow.
> 
> Sincerely
> Customer Service
> COA


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## MINIDriver

Whoa!!!

Amazing.

I am gonna blow it up and hang it on my wall.


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## TimeSeeker

MINIDriver said:


> Whoa!!!
> 
> Amazing.
> 
> I am gonna blow it up and hang it on my wall.


+1

That is ART and ENGINEERING!


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## bigolac

I just bought a 2100 Titanium from a fellow forumer, and now my drooling has become uncontrollable after seeing that picture. The waiting is killing me!!!


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## citizenwatchco

As promised, here is a better picture of the E210. While there is some glare and reflections, at least it is much more clear


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## MINIDriver

COA, you guys are the BEST!!!!!

Seeing this beautiful movement in all its 294 component glory is something that simply makes me appreciate the Caliber 2100 even more.

Thank you!!!!!


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## TimeSeeker

excellent!!!


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## MINIDriver

COA, how many jewels in the movement? I can not clearly see the printing on the bridge assembly.


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## Caraptor

MINIDriver said:


> COA, how many jewels in the movement? I can not clearly see the printing on the bridge assembly.


Looks like eleven to me.


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## MINIDriver

Until now, I had no idea the E210 was a jeweled movement.


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## Caraptor

Wow what a great reference. Thanks COA.


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## citizenwatchco

Eleven is correct


Caraptor said:


> Looks like eleven to me.


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## aladin_sane

Thank COA. That is a great display.


Mini, can we now agree to quit calling this a mechanical chronograph?


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## MINIDriver

Are you calling me a liar?

The movement is what it is. Still mighty impressive in its design and construction. Mechanically actuated chronograph complication. How's that?


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## Caraptor

MINIDriver said:


> Are you calling me a liar?
> 
> The movement is what it is. Still mighty impressive in its design and construction. Mechanically actuated chronograph complication. How's that?


Alright fellas take it easy. I don't think anyone is trying to insult anyone else here. This has been a very interesting and informative thread, and we all learned something new about a really cool watch. I still think it's one of the neatest chronos out there and I'll keep saving and drooling like everyone else that wants one, and those that already have it can keep wearing and enjoying.


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## MID

In the section of the display marked "Chronograph function" (upper left of display) is a component in the upper right corner of that section that looks a lot like a column wheel. Now _that is_ very cool.


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## citizenwatchco

Broken down into each section. Still not the most clear as these are hand held in office light but hopefully gives a good idea.


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## MINIDriver

Splendid!


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## Parzival

COA, thanks for the great pictures! 

Now I appreciate my AV0020-55H even more, even though I get a bit dizzy of all the tiny parts (I always thought quartz movements were meant to be simple constructions . 

/p


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## aladin_sane

I am not in the least bit trying to call you a liar. There is a difference between being mistaken about something and knowingly not telling the truth. I can live with Mechanically actuated chronograph complication. That is the word we got from Citizen USA, and that is good enough for me. Oddly enough, that is exactly what I called this movement on page one of this thread.


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## Motorcityjoe

Thank you very much COA rep! Now thats what i call customer support/technical assistance. Seiko, are you listening? Meh, probably not, lol.


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## Catalin

MID said:


> In the section of the display marked "Chronograph function" (upper left of display) is a component in the upper right corner of that section that looks a lot like a column wheel. Now _that is_ very cool.


Just as I expected ;-)

But you will not find parts for a clutch - this design does not need one, and I believe the SpringDrives are the only quartz chronographs that have one ... which is actually FAR from being a great thing, since that is still one of the parts that is most affected by wear in time ...


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## MINIDriver

Catalin said:


> Just as I expected ;-)
> 
> But you will not find parts for a clutch - this design does not need one, and I believe the SpringDrives are the only quartz chronographs that have one ... which is actually FAR from being a great thing, since that is still one of the parts that is most affected by wear in time ...


Really? That is pretty interesting. What is the life expectancy and servicing requirements of Spring Drive movements?:think:


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## MINIDriver

aladin_sane said:


> I am not in the least bit trying to call you a liar. There is a difference between being mistaken about something and knowingly not telling the truth. I can live with Mechanically actuated chronograph complication. That is the word we got from Citizen USA, and that is good enough for me. Oddly enough, that is exactly what I called this movement on page one of this thread.


Fair enough then.


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## MINIDriver

Motorcityjoe said:


> Thank you very much COA rep! Now thats what i call customer support/technical assistance. Seiko, are you listening? Meh, probably not, lol.


Seiko is too busy now scrapping up and dumping product from slow selling outlets.:-d


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## MID

Yep. I'm pretty sure that's a column wheel.


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## MINIDriver

MID said:


> Yep. I'm pretty sure that's a column wheel.


Column wheel eh? COA can you help us out here?


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## aladin_sane

The item in the top right hand corner could be a column wheel. It is hard to say for sure.


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## MINIDriver

aladin_sane said:


> The item in the top right hand corner could be a column wheel. It is hard to say for sure.


I know that expensive mechanical chronograph movements have column wheels. If the 2100 has one (let's assume for a minute it does indeed have it) what is the advantage of having one in this particular setup?


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## citizenwatchco

Hey Minidriver
Since the factory does all servicing and prohibits us from taking these apart, we will check with them to get the answer.



MINIDriver said:


> Column wheel eh? COA can you help us out here?


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## MINIDriver

citizenwatchco said:


> Hey Minidriver
> Since the factory does all servicing and prohibits us from taking these apart, we will check with them to get the answer.


COA, thanks again for that. I am eager to see what Heiwa/Tokyo has to say about the presence of the column wheel in the E210 movement.

Also, as a side note, since the 2100 has to be sent back to Japan for movement servicing/repairs what is the ballpark turn around time for US customers?:think:


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## MINIDriver

I found this old thread from march that briefly discusses the advantages of column wheel driven chronographs vs lever actuated ones:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=239859


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## Catalin

MINIDriver said:


> Really? That is pretty interesting. What is the life expectancy and servicing requirements of Spring Drive movements?:think:


Like all automatic watches - the builder suggests a service every 3-5 years (of use) or similar - and with that done correctly the life expectancy could be like 50-100 years (without changing parts, just like good automatic watches CORRECTLY SERVICED). The problem is that almost nobody really does that :-(

Also note that the SpringDrive Chronograph models really have a price which reflects the similarity with high-end mechanical watches :-d (but the accuracy is obviously better, so they might have an excuse ...)


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## citizenwatchco

Hi Minidriver

We actually rotate movements with them, so there is no delay in servicing.

We won't find out any information from Tokyo for about a week as they are closed for Holidays until Thursday.

Sincerely
Customer Service
COA



MINIDriver said:


> COA, thanks again for that. I am eager to see what Heiwa/Tokyo has to say about the presence of the column wheel in the E210 movement.
> 
> Also, as a side note, since the 2100 has to be sent back to Japan for movement servicing/repairs what is the ballpark turn around time for US customers?:think:


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## citizenwatchco

The wheel in question is a "pillar wheel", which helps to control movement functions and modes.



MINIDriver said:


> COA, thanks again for that. I am eager to see what Heiwa/Tokyo has to say about the presence of the column wheel in the E210 movement.
> 
> Also, as a side note, since the 2100 has to be sent back to Japan for movement servicing/repairs what is the ballpark turn around time for US customers?:think:


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## MINIDriver

Very cool. We all really appreciate the time you are taking to answer our questions regarding this wonderful timepiece. By the way, yesterday I wore my 2100 the whole day and my family was really, really into it.

COA, any chance that Citizen will re-release the Bullhead 2100 version from 2004? Lots of Citizen fans will open their wallets (including myself) if the E210 bullhead ever become available again. Please communicate this to Tokyo headquarters......A bullhead re-issue is a guaranteed sale from me.


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## MID

citizenwatchco said:


> The wheel in question is a "pillar wheel", which helps to control movement functions and modes.


Indeed, that is very cool. A a pillar (or column) wheel chronograph for a few hundred dollars. And thanks to COA for its participation.


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## citizenwatchco

HI Minidriver
Unfortunately, we do not know what may or may not be introduced.

Sincerely
Customer Service
COA


MINIDriver said:


> Very cool. We all really appreciate the time you are taking to answer our questions regarding this wonderful timepiece. By the way, yesterday I wore my 2100 the whole day and my family was really, really into it.
> 
> COA, any chance that Citizen will re-release the Bullhead 2100 version from 2004? Lots of Citizen fans will open their wallets (including myself) if the E210 bullhead ever become available again. Please communicate this to Tokyo headquarters......A bullhead re-issue is a guaranteed sale from me.


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## shandy

I am loving reading this thread..So much I have put the Sumo on hold and am now going to get the white dial version in the next week or so. I checked on out at my local store today and fell in love with it:-d
One question, on the Canadian models the caseback is the usual shiny etched finish but I am sure I saw somewhere a caseback that had the engraved pro master logo, am I imagining that?:-s

Also, looking at the wonderful pictures that COA showed (a major influence to dump the sumo for the time being!!) I noticed the movement back, thought I had seen a similar shape somewhere before and I had!

Here is an image of a Campy movement, looks familiar eh! I know it is not exactly the same but the middle shape is very similar!









I just realised! I think I am an eco drive fan, this one will be the fourth in my collection!


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## Caraptor

ianmedium said:


> I am loving reading this thread..So much I have put the Sumo on hold and am now going to get the white dial version in the next week or so. I checked on out at my local store today and fell in love with it:-d
> One question, on the Canadian models the caseback is the usual shiny etched finish but I am sure I saw somewhere a caseback that had the engraved pro master logo, am I imagining that?:-sQUOTE]
> 
> MINIDriver: correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the North American models have the laser etched case backs, while either the Euro or Asian models have the engraved promaster logo. I can't remember which.


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## shandy

Caraptor said:


> ianmedium said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am loving reading this thread..So much I have put the Sumo on hold and am now going to get the white dial version in the next week or so. I checked on out at my local store today and fell in love with it:-d
> One question, on the Canadian models the caseback is the usual shiny etched finish but I am sure I saw somewhere a caseback that had the engraved pro master logo, am I imagining that?:-sQUOTE]
> 
> MINIDriver: correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the North American models have the laser etched case backs, while either the Euro or Asian models have the engraved promaster logo. I can't remember which.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that, I thought I was not going mad! The engraved caseback would have been nice but it is not a biggy to me. That white dial, oh boy what a beautiful dial
Click to expand...


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## shandy

After reading the watchbiz pdf I understand the figures on the photo's COA published now.

The parts assembled bit means the parts that are hand assembled! Reading that it is easy to negate some arguments that I have seen posted that it is only a very small amount of hand build. Heck I bet some of the high volume Swiss companies do not have that level of hand build in their watches!

Just did a calculation. There are 294 parts in the movement of which exactly half, 148, are hand assembled..Remarkable at this price point. This one must be one of the great Horological bargins of it's time.

Sorry if this is all old news but it is new to me and leaves me speechless..Can't wait to get mine!


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## jason_recliner

You could be right.

I took the "parts assembled" figure to mean the number of parts in each 'feature module' once the individual components had been assembled. Japanese labour is very expensive. I think it would be difficult to release a watc at the 2100 price point (US$400-600?) with such a high percentage of hand assembly in Japan.

I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but it just doesn't add up IMO. If the movement, or the individual feature modules, is hand assembled in China and then final assembly of the modules is undertaken in Japan... maybe that would work?

I notice that the question to COA in this thread regarding the deegree of manual assembly went unanswered... :think:

Please don't hate me Mini!!! I'm just thinking out aloud!!!

(where's my raincoat?)

ps - I really hope I'm wrong, as I love to see such amazing movements representing such amazing value.

pps - And even if it is 100% assembled by robots I still think the 2100 sounds like an awesome movement

ppps - Love ya Mini!!! :-!



ianmedium said:


> After reading the watchbiz pdf I understand the figures on the photo's COA published now.
> 
> The parts assembled bit means the parts that are hand assembled! Reading that it is easy to negate some arguments that I have seen posted that it is only a very small amount of hand build. Heck I bet some of the high volume Swiss companies do not have that level of hand build in their watches!
> 
> Just did a calculation. There are 294 parts in the movement of which exactly half, 148, are hand assembled..Remarkable at this price point. This one must be one of the great Horological bargins of it's time.
> 
> Sorry if this is all old news but it is new to me and leaves me speechless..Can't wait to get mine!


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## Radio_Daze

Here is a picture of my Asian market E210 with the engraved caseback.










It cost me a lot less than a Sumo. In fact I got it on eBay for £104. Sumo is around £300.

Here is a pic of the dial too.


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## Catalin

ianmedium said:


> After reading the watchbiz pdf I understand the figures on the photo's COA published now.
> 
> The parts assembled bit means the parts that are hand assembled! Reading that it is easy to negate some arguments that I have seen posted that it is only a very small amount of hand build. Heck I bet some of the high volume Swiss companies do not have that level of hand build in their watches!
> ...


*How do you 'deduct' that 'assembled parts' is the same as 'HAND assembled parts' ???
*
The normal / logical / experienced deduction would be to assume that *'assembled parts'* means just that - *'assembled parts'* - VERY often certain parts are ALWAYS used together and are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together - for instance most of the gears with an 'axle' that you can see in the schematics are made of at least 3 (sometimes more) separate parts which are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together and then the same assembled parts can be re-used in many-many calibers !!!

This kind of totally inexperienced 'guessing' plus the lack of honesty from COA (which should have immediately clarified the technical part on your wild fabrication) is the reason why I strongly discourage dishonest claims like the one about caliber 2100 ...

YES, we all like caliber E210 which is a very interesting one, but let's avoid guessing stuff only to 'validate' some opinion ...

(and *NO*, that fact that some parts are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together and listed in the E210 parts diagram ALSO does not mean that the parts that are *NOT* pre-assembled are *ALL* later hand-assembled ...)


----------



## Caraptor

Catalin said:


> *How do you 'deduct' that 'assembled parts' is the same as 'HAND assembled parts' ???
> *
> The normal / logical / experienced deduction would be to assume that *'assembled parts'* means just that - *'assembled parts'* - VERY often certain parts are ALWAYS used together and are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together - for instance most of the gears with an 'axle' that you can see in the schematics are made of at least 3 (sometimes more) separate parts which are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together and then the same assembled parts can be re-used in many-many calibers !!!
> 
> This kind of totally inexperienced 'guessing' plus the lack of honesty from COA (which should have immediately clarified the technical part on your wild fabrication) is the reason why I strongly discourage dishonest claims like the one about caliber 2100 ...
> 
> YES, we all like caliber E210 which is a very interesting one, but let's avoid guessing stuff only to 'validate' some opinion ...
> 
> (and *NO*, that fact that some parts are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together and listed in the E210 parts diagram ALSO does not mean that the parts that are *NOT* pre-assembled are *ALL* later hand-assembled ...)


For crying out loud Catalin, just let these people enjoy the watch and speculate and find out info from COA and then modify their speculations... You keep jumping all over people like we're discussing something far more important than watches. I think various corrections to people's incorrect ideas have been keeping an appropriate pace with this discussion without your unsoliscited logic lessons and accusations of wild fabrications. Nobody in this forum is trying to maintain a bunch of lies--we are all exploring and learning. Your input is appreciated, but take a lesson here from jason_recliner and do it with some tact. I understand your desire to preserve accurate info, but can you do it without the flamethrower?


----------



## citizenwatchco

As we simply do not have the time to follow these conversations as tightly or as diligently as the forum particpants, many times we do not notice or see additional comments or questions. Not answering a question or particular thread is not meant to create speculation. More over this is really your forum and we are not an every day participant. We much prefer to stay far on the sidelines and only participate when we can help to provide clarification or information.

In the case of Calibre 2100 movement assembly, certainly components are machine made. However when it comes to assembly of movement components, it is our understanding that assembly of said components is 100% hand assembled in Japan by only the most skilled watchmakers ("meisters") as they are called. 
*Correction to the original post. The movement is not 100% hand assembled. In referring to a document from 2005, some assemblies come preassembled. 39 of 70 of the chronograph components are hand assembled, 23 of the 28 alarm function are hand assembled, all calendar components are hand assembled, etc. As you can see, far more of the parts are hand assembled than not. How does this compare? Most quartz movements are 100% machine assembled, not touched by a human hand.*

We hope that helps to clear up any misunderstandings.

Sincerely
Customer Service
COA



jason_recliner said:


> You could be right.
> 
> I took the "parts assembled" figure to mean the number of parts in each 'feature module' once the individual components had been assembled. Japanese labour is very expensive. I think it would be difficult to release a watc at the 2100 price point (US$400-600?) with such a high percentage of hand assembly in Japan.
> 
> I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but it just doesn't add up IMO. If the movement, or the individual feature modules, is hand assembled in China and then final assembly of the modules is undertaken in Japan... maybe that would work?
> 
> I notice that the question to COA in this thread regarding the deegree of manual assembly went unanswered... :think:
> 
> Please don't hate me Mini!!! I'm just thinking out aloud!!!
> 
> (where's my raincoat?)
> 
> ps - I really hope I'm wrong, as I love to see such amazing movements representing such amazing value.
> 
> pps - And even if it is 100% assembled by robots I still think the 2100 sounds like an awesome movement
> 
> ppps - Love ya Mini!!! :-!


----------



## petew

Hi COA, thanks for responding. I hate to put you on the spot, but I have to ask. Where exactly did you get your information stating that these movements are 100% hand assembled? Did this come directly from Citizen Japan, or a second hand source?

Many thanks!


----------



## MINIDriver

Caraptor said:


> ianmedium said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am loving reading this thread..So much I have put the Sumo on hold and am now going to get the white dial version in the next week or so. I checked on out at my local store today and fell in love with it:-d
> One question, on the Canadian models the caseback is the usual shiny etched finish but I am sure I saw somewhere a caseback that had the engraved pro master logo, am I imagining that?:-sQUOTE]
> 
> MINIDriver: correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the North American models have the laser etched case backs, while either the Euro or Asian models have the engraved promaster logo. I can't remember which.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that is correct. I like the Promaster 2100 engraved case back of Asian -european models but not a biggie for me either. This is still a superb timepiece.
> 
> US, Canada, UK and Ireland market versions of the 2100 all have the laser etched case back and mineral glass.;-)
Click to expand...


----------



## MINIDriver

Oh Lord, let's not go down that path again, Catalin. Again calling COA dishonest is beyond reprehensible. If you need proof, buy a plane ticket to Japan and then from Tokyo get on the bullet train to Lida City, Nagano and see it for yourself.

No matter how you cut it and slice, the E210 is a fairly complicated movement and the diagram that COA posted here shows the parts that are hand assembled. What else do you need? You seem to have this belief that the E210 is put together in some warehouse in North Korea....


----------



## MINIDriver

Catalin said:


> *How do you 'deduct' that 'assembled parts' is the same as 'HAND assembled parts' ???
> *
> The normal / logical / experienced deduction would be to assume that *'assembled parts'* means just that - *'assembled parts'* - VERY often certain parts are ALWAYS used together and are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together - for instance most of the gears with an 'axle' that you can see in the schematics are made of at least 3 (sometimes more) separate parts which are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together and then the same assembled parts can be re-used in many-many calibers !!!
> 
> This kind of totally inexperienced 'guessing' plus the lack of honesty from COA (which should have immediately clarified the technical part on your wild fabrication) is the reason why I strongly discourage dishonest claims like the one about caliber 2100 ...
> 
> YES, we all like caliber E210 which is a very interesting one, but let's avoid guessing stuff only to 'validate' some opinion ...
> 
> (and *NO*, that fact that some parts are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together and listed in the E210 parts diagram ALSO does not mean that the parts that are *NOT* pre-assembled are *ALL* later hand-assembled ...)


You seem the one here with a wild imagination:think: Since you know so much about Citizen manufacturing process, can you please enlighten us with your superior knowledge by posting the sources/documents that back up your fabrications?:think|


----------



## Motorcityjoe

Well said Caraptor. Uh oh guys. Better watch what you say. Captain Catalin of the watch police is gonna lock you up, roflmao! Catalin, you're grippin the handle bars a little too tight bro. We are not in the U.S. senate chambers debating nation security issues. Its just a watch man.


----------



## MINIDriver

Jason, no problem mate:-! You have legitimate questions;-) at least you are not calling COA dishonest and then making wild ASSumptions about stuff you have no idea about.:think:



jason_recliner said:


> You could be right.
> 
> I took the "parts assembled" figure to mean the number of parts in each 'feature module' once the individual components had been assembled. Japanese labour is very expensive. I think it would be difficult to release a watc at the 2100 price point (US$400-600?) with such a high percentage of hand assembly in Japan.
> 
> I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but it just doesn't add up IMO. If the movement, or the individual feature modules, is hand assembled in China and then final assembly of the modules is undertaken in Japan... maybe that would work?
> 
> I notice that the question to COA in this thread regarding the deegree of manual assembly went unanswered... :think:
> 
> Please don't hate me Mini!!! I'm just thinking out aloud!!!
> 
> (where's my raincoat?)
> 
> ps - I really hope I'm wrong, as I love to see such amazing movements representing such amazing value.
> 
> pps - And even if it is 100% assembled by robots I still think the 2100 sounds like an awesome movement
> 
> ppps - Love ya Mini!!! :-!


----------



## citizenwatchco

This comes directly from our head office in Japan. *Please see our correction to our original post regarding assembly.*



petew said:


> Hi COA, thanks for responding. I hate to put you on the spot, but I have to ask. Where exactly did you get your information stating that these movements are 100% hand assembled? Did this come directly from Citizen Japan, or a second hand source?
> 
> Many thanks!


----------



## MINIDriver

ianmedium said:


> Caraptor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that, I thought I was not going mad! The engraved caseback would have been nice but it is not a biggy to me. That white dial, oh boy what a beautiful dial
> 
> 
> 
> Ian, welcome to the 2100 madhouse!b-):-! You are gonna love this baby:
Click to expand...


----------



## MINIDriver

Motorcityjoe said:


> Well said Caraptor. Uh oh guys. Better watch what you say. Captain Catalin of the watch police is gonna lock you up, roflmao! Catalin, you're grippin the handle bars a little too tight bro. We are not in the U.S. senate chambers debating nation security issues. Its just a watch man.


+1

Joe for president!b-)


----------



## shandy

Catalin said:


> *How do you 'deduct' that 'assembled parts' is the same as 'HAND assembled parts' ???
> *
> The normal / logical / experienced deduction would be to assume that *'assembled parts'* means just that - *'assembled parts'* - VERY often certain parts are ALWAYS used together and are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together - for instance most of the gears with an 'axle' that you can see in the schematics are made of at least 3 (sometimes more) separate parts which are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together and then the same assembled parts can be re-used in many-many calibers !!!
> 
> This kind of totally inexperienced 'guessing' plus the lack of honesty from COA (which should have immediately clarified the technical part on your wild fabrication) is the reason why I strongly discourage dishonest claims like the one about caliber 2100 ...
> 
> YES, we all like caliber E210 which is a very interesting one, but let's avoid guessing stuff only to 'validate' some opinion ...
> 
> (and *NO*, that fact that some parts are MACHINE-ASSEMBLED together and listed in the E210 parts diagram ALSO does not mean that the parts that are *NOT* pre-assembled are *ALL* later hand-assembled ...)


Catalin, obviously you are privvy to all the technical detail making that all the watch companies in the world put out..In fact I would not be surpised if you are at all of their highest level development meetings as you seem to assert your view point vehmently.

Here is the evidence, a quote (which by the way if you had taken time to read instead of pontificating non knowledge you might have written with a kinder slant!) direct from a visit to the manufacturing plant by the COA president and Joe Thompson the writer. Have you been to this plant, have you asked the people involved about the manufacturer, are you privvy to information they seem to not to be??
I think the only "wild fabrication" going on here is in your immature response!

_*The Quote!*_

"All of these features and functions make
Calibre 2100 an unusually complex quartz
movement (more proof: it contains not one
stepping motor but three). Virtually all of these
mechanisms require some hand assembly by
the watchmakers at Citizen Heiwa. For example,
of the chronograph mechanism's 70 components,
39 are hand-assembled; 23 of the 28
parts of the alarm function are hand-assembled;
all of the 13 parts of the calendar are
hand-assembled; the setting function has 18
parts, 14 hand-assembled; and so on, including
the Eco-Drive solar cell. Eight of its nine
parts are hand-assembled."


----------



## shandy

MINIDriver said:


> ianmedium said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ian, welcome to the 2100 madhouse!b-):-! You are gonna love this baby:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Mini, it was this thread and your excellent video review that tipped the balance, Oh and as per usual the excellent input by COA, There should be a health warning with the pictures they published of the movement:-d:-d
Click to expand...


----------



## Caraptor

Ok guys, I think the point has been made. This doesn't need to cross the line into a Catalin bashing thread. Let's get back on track with discussing the 2100, and hopefully all participants can have a more thoughtful discussion.


----------



## MINIDriver

Caraptor said:


> Ok guys, I think the point has been made. This doesn't need to cross the line into a Catalin bashing thread. Let's get back on track with discussing the 2100, and hopefully all participants can have a more thoughtful discussion.


No one is bashing him. He is being extreme by calling COA dishonest. If he knows something COA doesn't know, then post back up here proving otherwise.

If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.:-d


----------



## petew

Many many thanks COA. I know trying to keep up with the collectors market and these collectors boards can be difficult and time consuming. Your efforts are very appreciated.


----------



## shandy

Caraptor said:


> Ok guys, I think the point has been made. This doesn't need to cross the line into a Catalin bashing thread. Let's get back on track with discussing the 2100, and hopefully all participants can have a more thoughtful discussion.


I am not bashing, just defending myself. I do think it immature to write so vehmently and cast into doubt my standing and charactor and I will defend that to the hilt.

Especially when the person attacking is so obviously in the wrong (I make such a strong statement based not only on the article written but backed up by Citizen themselves and if they do not know the fact about their own watches who do!) and trying to project a superior knowledge when he has is none on this subject.

I am not bashing Catalin..Simply putting a few facts(which by the way he seems incapable of stating seeing as he is not responding with written proof to the contrary!) his way!


----------



## shandy

petew said:


> Many many thanks COA. I know trying to keep up with the collectors market and these collectors boards can be difficult and time consuming. Your efforts are very appreciated.


Here here, thanks COA!


----------



## MINIDriver

Thanks, COA. Your candor and desire to help when appropriate is a clear demonstration of the high level of quality of your products and commitment to your customers and fans. 

Keep it up.


----------



## Caraptor

MINIDriver said:


> No one is bashing him. He is being extreme by calling COA dishonest. If he knows something COA doesn't know, then post back up here proving otherwise.
> 
> If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.:-d


MINI (and all): I'm not trying to step on anyone's right to defend themselves. I'm just saying that if we aren't careful, we're going to end up with a page or two of comments that might get out of hand. All I'm saying is that Catalin's overly aggressive posts have been addressed, Catalin's sources and info have been appropriately questioned. Let's move on. If everybody wants to get their licks in fine, but I think it's kind of below us, and this is a good thread I don't want to see closed. Love to all of you.


----------



## MINIDriver

Caraptor said:


> MINI (and all): I'm not trying to step on anyone's right to defend themselves. I'm just saying that if we aren't careful, we're going to end up with a page or two of comments that might get out of hand. All I'm saying is that Catalin's overly aggressive posts have been addressed, Catalin's sources and info have been appropriately questioned. Let's move on. If everybody wants to get their licks in fine, but I think it's kind of below us, and this is a good thread I don't want to see closed. Love to all of you.


Agreed my friend. I am going to grab a cup of Joe:-!


----------



## Motorcityjoe

MINIDriver said:


> Thanks, COA. Your candor and desire to help when appropriate is a clear demonstration of the high level of quality of your products and commitment to your customers and fans.
> 
> Keep it up.


Agreed. Thanks again COA:-!


----------



## shandy

Caraptor said:


> MINI (and all): I'm not trying to step on anyone's right to defend themselves. I'm just saying that if we aren't careful, we're going to end up with a page or two of comments that might get out of hand. All I'm saying is that Catalin's overly aggressive posts have been addressed, Catalin's sources and info have been appropriately questioned. Let's move on. If everybody wants to get their licks in fine, but I think it's kind of below us, and this is a good thread I don't want to see closed. Love to all of you.


Well said:-! Carpe Diem!


----------



## MID

Thank you COA. Hand assembly says a lot about this movement. But, whether one component more or less is hand assembled doesn't really matter. The 2100 and its progeny is still a great chrono movement.


----------



## Isthmus

Alright everybody, let's drop the issue. Catalin you were out of line, please be more thoughtful of how you address other forum members.

Now lets continue the regularly scheduled discussion and drop the arguing.


----------



## MINIDriver

citizenwatchco said:


> This comes directly from our head office in Japan. *Please see our correction to our original post regarding assembly.*


Did you get a response regarding the column wheel inquiry?


----------



## aladin_sane

Mini,

They answered that a couple of pages ago. They said it was a "pillar" wheel which I took to be a translational error meaning column wheel.


----------



## MINIDriver

aladin_sane said:


> Mini,
> 
> They answered that a couple of pages ago. They said it was a "pillar" wheel which I took to be a translational error meaning column wheel.


OK, I stand corrected, "pillar" wheel.


----------



## jason_recliner

*WOW*

I stand corrected. And I am floored.

         

As I said, I love that there are still products where we can pay for quality and integrity and engineering skill, and not just a brand name. That Citizen can put this watch together in Japan (using Meisters - that word makes melaugh every timeI hear it!), largely hand assembled, well I am just a little bit blown away. Thank you so much for clearing this up COA, I'm a huge fan of your manner of forum interaction.

I'm also a little pi$$ed of now, as it looks like an asian 2100 with the engarved caseback is now a must-have watch for me!



citizenwatchco said:


> *The movement is not 100% hand assembled. In referring to a document from 2005, some assemblies come preassembled. 39 of 70 of the chronograph components are hand assembled, 23 of the 28 alarm function are hand assembled, all calendar components are hand assembled, etc. As you can see, far more of the parts are hand assembled than not. How does this compare? Most quartz movements are 100% machine assembled, not touched by a human hand.*
> 
> We hope that helps to clear up any misunderstandings.
> 
> Sincerely
> Customer Service
> COA


----------



## TNT13

Dear COA,

Since you monitor this forum I have a question.

I have the US version in black and am interested in getting a sapphire crystal. Is this something that can be done by COA?

Thank you.


----------



## MINIDriver

I think what's cool about the 2100 is that this is a watch that is put together almost in the same fashion as a high end Grand Seiko or Citizen Campanola without the hefty price tag.

I was checking the Aussie Citizen site and you guys don't get the 2100 downthere:-s, So looks to me you are going to start inquiring with the usual suspects....;-)



jason_recliner said:


> *WOW*
> 
> I stand corrected. And I am floored.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, I love that there are still products where we can pay for quality and integrity and engineering skill, and not just a brand name. That Citizen can put this watch together in Japan (using Meisters - that word makes melaugh every timeI hear it!), largely hand assembled, well I am just a little bit blown away. Thank you so much for clearing this up COA, I'm a huge fan of your manner of forum interaction.
> 
> I'm also a little pi$$ed of now, as it looks like an asian 2100 with the engarved caseback is now a must-have watch for me!


----------



## shandy

jason_recliner said:


> *WOW*
> 
> I'm also a little pi$$ed of now, as it looks like an asian 2100 with the engarved caseback is now a must-have watch for me!


Ahh, Jason, join the club mate! I have just ordered the white dial version on the strength of reading this thread..Mini and COA have emptied my wallet:-d:-d:-d
Seriously, I think other watch companies could learn a thing or three from COA. I had no eco drives before coming to this forum last year..Now I have four! In the main, not only do I love the technology but I also love the fact that the company is prepared to spend precious time hanging out here and informing us. It is done with the purest intent of customer service I feel but it has the effect of building great confidence in the watch company, well I know it has for me! I love the fact that COA is prepared to share this info to us all and not just it's customer base, I think world-wide they have gained Citizen HQ customers, I sure hope the HQ in Japan realise that!


----------



## Caraptor

ianmedium said:


> Ahh, Jason, join the club mate! I have just ordered the white dial version on the strength of reading this thread..Mini and COA have emptied my wallet:-d:-d:-d
> Seriously, I think other watch companies could learn a thing or three from COA. I had no eco drives before coming to this forum last year..Now I have four! In the main, not only do I love the technology but I also love the fact that the company is prepared to spend precious time hanging out here and informing us. It is done with the purest intent of customer service I feel but it has the effect of building great confidence in the watch company, well I know it has for me! I love the fact that COA is prepared to share this info to us all and not just it's customer base, I think world-wide they have gained Citizen HQ customers, I sure hope the HQ in Japan realise that!


Well as much as appreciate the level of service COA displays in hanging out here, truth be told it's not hurting the marketing department either. I'm not saying that to put COA down. They _should_ be marketing. And a company that's smart enough to know that it's here in forums like this where they can really get a buzz going and conduct market research, and do all this for FREE is a company that's going to last. The way I see it, if their sales are helped here because of us, and that helps their bottom line, and that savings is eventually passed on to us in the form of lower prices, or at least deeper and more frequent discounts--everybody wins. I appreciate the info COA has provided, and hope they continue to participate.
It's going to be really interesting to see how all this plays out on the internet as more companies find ways to directly engage the consumer. I hope it leads to better products and better prices across the board.


----------



## Parzival

ianmedium said:


> I love the fact that COA is prepared to share this info to us all and not just it's customer base, I think world-wide they have gained Citizen HQ customers, I sure hope the HQ in Japan realise that!


I absolutely agree! Today, there are a lot of companies putting up flashy sites on facebook etc, but to me, that's just another form of advertisement like tv-commercials :roll:. Participating in a forum such as WUS takes customer care and information to another level.

Back to topic: half of the citizens I own (4 in all ) are calibre 2100:s and they get more wrist time than for example my radio controlled chronographs. I love the fact that I can just start the chronograph without having to fiddle with the crown in order to get into chrono-mode. I also like the possibility to measure up to twelve hours. :-!

Well, this thread is slowly driving me crazy since I have started to lust for a AV0030 with a white dial, and each time I see the pictures this feeling gets stronger.


----------



## Caraptor

Parzival said:


> Well, this thread is slowly driving me crazy since I have started to lust for a AV0030 with a white dial, and each time I see the pictures this feeling gets stronger.


+1 I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a black one. Just gotta save a bit first. Patience, patience, patience. o|


----------



## h2oflyer

New member....Got my first Citizen ...Cal.2100 Titanium Av0021-52H.

Returned a Victorinox Night Vision watch to my dealer for $300 Cdn credit (LED function was gimmicky and unreliable). He offered me a mint slightly used 2006 as even trade and I accepted. 

Planned on using the 2100 as a knock around watch. After researching this amazing watch on different forums I am beginning to think this watch is too good to abuse. This thread answered most of my curiosity about the watch and here I am.

I would have passed up on this watch at $875 Cdn but I am beginning to see that the value might be fair. At 294 parts the 2100 has bragging rights over my Speedmaster "moon" watch which I think had a parts count of around 107.


----------



## citizenwatchco

Hello
We missed your post. In answer to your question, we do not see a black case/band version of the Calibre 2100 for the U.S.

Perhaps you mean the black dial version model AV0031-59E? If so, we do have a sapphire crystal for your watch. The price (From our Torrance location only) is 67.65 for the crystal plus 8.00 labor, 17.00 water testing, 10.00 return shipping plus taxes. Keep in mind other parts such as gaskets may be needed which would be in addition. The prices quoted are as of October 5 2009 from our Torrance Location only and are subject to change without notice.

We do not sell the part outright as the Calibre 2100 is marked "Factory Service Only".

Sincerely
Customer Service
COA



taro1313 said:


> Dear COA,
> 
> Since you monitor this forum I have a question.
> 
> I have the US version in black and am interested in getting a sapphire crystal. Is this something that can be done by COA?
> 
> Thank you.


----------



## MINIDriver

citizenwatchco said:


> Hello
> We missed your post. In answer to your question, we do not see a black case/band version of the Calibre 21oo for the U.S.
> 
> Perhaps you mean the black dial version model AV0031-59E? If so, we do have a sapphire crystal for your watch. The price (From our Torrance location only) is 67.50 for the crystal plus 8.00 labor, 17.00 water testing, 10.00 return shipping plus taxes. Keep in mind other parts such as gaskets may be needed which would be in addition. The prices quoted are as of October 5 2009 from our Torrance Location only and are subject to change without notice.
> 
> We do not sell the part outright as the Calibre 2100 is marked "Factory Service Only".
> 
> Sincerely
> Customer Service
> COA


Thanks you COA. That is good to know:-! So US Citizen 2100 owners do have the option to have sapphire crystal installed by COA.b-)


----------



## Caraptor

citizenwatchco said:


> Hello
> We missed your post. In answer to your question, we do not see a black case/band version of the Calibre 2100 for the U.S.
> 
> Perhaps you mean the black dial version model AV0031-59E? If so, we do have a sapphire crystal for your watch. The price (From our Torrance location only) is 67.65 for the crystal plus 8.00 labor, 17.00 water testing, 10.00 return shipping plus taxes. Keep in mind other parts such as gaskets may be needed which would be in addition. The prices quoted are as of October 5 2009 from our Torrance Location only and are subject to change without notice.
> 
> We do not sell the part outright as the Calibre 2100 is marked "Factory Service Only".
> 
> Sincerely
> Customer Service
> COA


Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
COA: does that come with AR coating on the inside?


----------



## citizenwatchco

We do not show this to be AR coated, but would assume that if the non-U.S. version is AR coated on the inside, this would be as this is the crystal as the non-US version.



Caraptor said:


> Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
> COA: does that come with AR coating on the inside?


----------



## Motorcityjoe

Great info COA. Thanks again!


----------



## Pete26

Here is a pic of mine. A great watch by any standards and this thread sold me on it. COA's customer service is better than any I have ever seen and the fact that they take the time to post is a testimony to their customer service ethos. I hope that Citizen world wide (particulalrly in OZ) have the same ethos. I was going to sell this, but changed my mind after re-reading this thread, and finally deciding to add some pics to whet the appetites of WUS members.

Cheers and happy thanksgiving.


----------



## MINIDriver

your 2100 Ti is an absolute beauty! One of the best values in Citizen's lineup. A work of art destined to be a classic!


----------



## Pete26

MINIDriver said:


> your 2100 Ti is an absolute beauty! One of the best values in Citizen's lineup. A work of art destined to be a classic!


Could not agree more, I love your new citizen as well:-!


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## Charco

This is a great thread. Very good info. Much appreciated.


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## 5150

MID said:


> Am I to understand correctly, that the Caliber 2100 is a kind of meca-quartz, with a mechanical chronograph combined with an underlying quartz movement? Does anyone have more information on this?


My forum name is 5150 and I am a watchaholic. I've been addicted to the forum for months (resulting in 2 purchases), but never felt I could add any value to the intelligent and informative discussions. I recently found this article about the Citizen 2100 (http://www.watchtime.at/archive/wt_2006_02/WT_2006_02_114.pdf) in WatchTime Magazine, however, and couldn't find it on anywhere on the forum, so I joined. I think the article might shed some light on the "hand assembled" issue, and it is just an interesting read.

I blame this thread, along with the attached article, for my most recent purchase, the AV0031-59A (US, white face). Please enjoy, and let me know if I've made any etiquette faux pas. I look forward to connecting with you all!

5150


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## nhoJ

I was just looking at them again today. Finally saw the black dialed one in person which looked SEXY! There is some subtle striping on the glossy black dial similar to the white one, but more difficult to see. I think I still prefer the white dialed one as it has a more classic look. I think I will make it mine soon.


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## Watchyman

nhoJ said:


> I was just looking at them again today. Finally saw the black dialed one in person which looked SEXY! There is some subtle striping on the glossy black dial similar to the white one, but more difficult to see. I think I still prefer the white dialed one as it has a more classic look. I think I will make it mine soon.


I think you could do better with a Signature line chrono.


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## h2oflyer

At twice the price the Signature chrono would only be better when the 2100 is discontinued....until then the 2100 is the way to go.

Walter


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## dominicr

h2oflyer said:


> At twice the price the Signature chrono would only be better when the 2100 is discontinued....until then the 2100 is the way to go.
> 
> Walter


Yes, but the Sig comes standard with sapphire crystal, the power gauge is a retrograde 24 hour needle, and the case and bracelet have a more expensive and detailed look.


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## Motorcityjoe

In addition to what dominicr stated. The sapphire glass used in the signature watches, is not your 'standard' sapphire. Citizen uses a 'special' formula that is used only on the signature line and no other.


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## h2oflyer

If a 2100 movement in a upgraded case and crystal is worth twice the price, I still say get a 2100 before they are dropped. Why would Citizen maintain the 2100 at half the price.

Walter


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## melterx12

Just got this watch (AV0020-55H) - amazing watch, especially considering the price.


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## jb2c

Can anyone tell me the differences in the AV0020-55H and the AV0021-52H? I think I know some of them:

Sapphire on the AV0020
Engraved case on the AV0020 (vs laser etched)
One year warranty on the AV0020 (vs 5 year on the US version AV0021)

Is the AV0020 only 100 meter? The AV0021 is 200 meter, so was surprised when I saw only 100M for the AV0020. I don't dive, but do wear my watch swimming in both fresh and salt water. And maybe 10-20' down for snorkeling. Would 100M be enough for swimming, snorkeling? Or should I go with 200M? From what little I've read on it, 100M is only good enough for showers and maybe a swim in the pool. Figured some of you divers on here can help here.

From the few websites I've checked, the pricing actually looks better on the AV0020 than on the AV0021. So what am I missing?? Does the AV0020-55H use the Caliber 2100? I noticed that the AV0021 says it uses an E210 movement, while the AV0020 says E2100 movement. Any differenence there? Is the size of the two exactly the same? Seems I had seen somewhere that the AV0020 was a little larger.

Finally, if I choose the AV0020, can anyone recc a website to purchase? Price wise and reputation too. I did notice that creationwatches had a two year warranty on theirs. I had read they were a reputable dealer (true?). I assume that's a 1 year factory warranty then an additional year from Creation directly. Anyone have experience with Creation's warranty coverage?

Thanks guys.


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## jb2c

Anyone?? Sorry for the impatience. But found out yesterday my other EcoDrive can't be repaired (see other thread). So now I'm itching to purchase. Is Creationwatches.com a reputable business to deal with?

Thx


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## Delmarco

jb2c said:


> Anyone?? Sorry for the impatience. But found out yesterday my other EcoDrive can't be repaired (see other thread). So now I'm itching to purchase. Is Creationwatches.com a reputable business to deal with?
> 
> Thx


Yes they are good peoples

What does COA mean? And why is half the posters in this thread talking to COA?


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## Kurt Behm

Here you go ...










Kurt


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## Delmarco

*GUIDE TO THE Calibre 2100 - E210 - WHITE PANDA FAMILY*

*AV0031-59A *_North American/UK Market_
Steel - Mineral - Polished Etched Case Back

*AV0030-60A *_European Only Market _
Steel - Sapphire - Matte Engraved Case Back

*AV0030-59A *_World Market _
_(replaced AV0031-59A/AV0030-60A)_
Steel - Mineral/Sapphire - Matte Engraved Case Back

*AV0020-55A *_Asian or Japan Only Market (?)_
Titanium TICC - Sapphire - Matte Engraved Case Back 
*GUIDE TO Calibre 2100 - E210 - GREY PANDA TITANIUM FAMILY*

*AV0020-55H *_European Market_
Titanium TICC - Sapphire - Matte Engraved Case Back

*AV0021-52H *_North American/UK Market_
Titanium - Mineral - Etched Case Back

*AV0027-56H *_??? Market_
Titanium TICC - Sapphire - Matte Engraved Case Back

*- Calibre 2100 Titanium is 121 grams or 4.2 oz*
*- Calibre 2100 Steel is 182 grams or 6.4 oz *
*TICC Titanium Carbide Coating aka (DLC) Duratect*



jb2c said:


> Can anyone tell me the differences in the AV0020-55H and the AV0021-52H? I think I know some of them:
> 
> Sapphire on the AV0020
> Engraved case on the AV0020 (vs laser etched)
> One year warranty on the AV0020 (vs 5 year on the US version AV0021)
> 
> Is the AV0020 only 100 meter? The AV0021 is 200 meter, so was surprised when I saw only 100M for the AV0020. I don't dive, but do wear my watch swimming in both fresh and salt water. And maybe 10-20' down for snorkeling. Would 100M be enough for swimming, snorkeling? Or should I go with 200M? From what little I've read on it, 100M is only good enough for showers and maybe a swim in the pool. Figured some of you divers on here can help here.
> 
> From the few websites I've checked, the pricing actually looks better on the AV0020 than on the AV0021. So what am I missing?? Does the AV0020-55H use the Caliber 2100? I noticed that the AV0021 says it uses an E210 movement, while the AV0020 says E2100 movement. Any differenence there? Is the size of the two exactly the same? Seems I had seen somewhere that the AV0020 was a little larger.
> 
> Finally, if I choose the AV0020, can anyone recc a website to purchase? Price wise and reputation too. I did notice that creationwatches had a two year warranty on theirs. I had read they were a reputable dealer (true?). I assume that's a 1 year factory warranty then an additional year from Creation directly. Anyone have experience with Creation's warranty coverage?
> 
> Thanks guys.


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