# Gallet & Co. crosscheck of possible fakes/ frankens



## DragonDan

Sadly enough, the world of "imaginative" restorations/ frankenstein/ marriage watches/ outright forgeries have come to light. With the resurgence in the last couple of years due to the buzz around their newest publicly-released watch, the Gallet Racing Heritage chronograph.

We've seen some pretty crummy attempts at people trying to pass off 'shaggy dogs' as the real thing. 
I must thank forum user TucayJordan for this idea, it is apparently time.









So, let's add to this thread for all questions regarding the authenticity of Gallet watches. 
My intent is not to call out people for posting something for sale, because it's quite probable that the current owner does not know the history of the piece, or it was simply worked on by unqualified people and the owner does not have the specific knowledge to determine good from bad. Yes, there are people that are actually trying to defraud potential buyers, but the idea of this thread is to help a buyer to make the best purchase possible.

I have a very solid knowledge of Gallet's history and their watches, but I'm certainly not the only Gallet aficionado here. I welcome the help of anyone that has information on the piece in question.

~Daniel


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## DragonDan

The first posting, a definite shaggy dog.









Sent in by a forum user a couple day ago.
While I've not seen the movement yet, I don't need to. This is an outright fake, as it is nothing that Gallet ever produced. Probably a pocket watch caliber tossed into a new case, and a poorly done dial. Were they trying to invoke a pilot's watch theme here? Might be a decent timepiece, but it's certainly not a Gallet.


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## DragonDan

This one is from my collection. I purchased this probably 7 years ago. While this is an original Marathon/ Gallet case, and movement, the dial has been altered. When Gallet entered into the contract with Marathon to supply these watches, exactly (10) sample pieces were sent for evaluation. These had Desert Shield on the dial. This was immediately nixxed, because at that time, it was not public knowledge that the operation name was to be Desert Shield. 
The ADANAC/ Marathon/ Navigator was removed and reprinted. The second tell for this being a franken is that the person that made these used a too-big crown. The original crown barely sticks out from the protecting ears.


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## DragonDan

Another Marathon Navigator, this one somebody decided to put a mechanical movement into a quartz case. While I admire the ingenuity it took to do this, it's still a frankenstein watch. Notice this also has the Desert Storm logo on the dial.



















Peek-A-Boo!


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## laikrodukas

What do You know, An open heart case


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## Dan S

That opening makes regulating the watch very convenient.


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## kazrich

OK, Can I play ?

This Gallet watch was sold on ebay recently for what looks like half it's possible value ?
Would anyone care to comment ?
BTW it has nothing to do with me (as a buyer or vendor ) - just interested in your comments

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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## Dan S

kazrich said:


> OK, Can I play ?
> 
> This Gallet watch was sold on ebay recently for what looks like half it's possible value ?
> Would anyone care to comment ?
> BTW it has nothing to do with me (as a buyer or vendor ) - just interested in your comments
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


I think this price is plenty high for a PVD-coated (with brassing) 1970s style Valjoux 7750. I also wonder if it is missing its bracelet.


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## DragonDan

Gallet made these for the US Gov, I believe for pilots/ USAF. The contract was similar to the nylon-cased navigators, but they wanted a chronograph. So to keep costs down, Gallet created these cases from brass, and PVD coated them. The R7750 was one of the older 17 jewel calibers, but still plenty of watch for it's intended use. I've got one of these in my collection, but mine has the original band. It's a multi-link stainless case made for Gallet that was also PVD coated to match the case.

Even though this is not generally a sought-after piece, that $900 was more than I'd expect this chrono to go for. Here's mine:








~D



kazrich said:


> OK, Can I play ?
> 
> This Gallet watch was sold on ebay recently for what looks like half it's possible value ?
> Would anyone care to comment ?
> BTW it has nothing to do with me (as a buyer or vendor ) - just interested in your comments


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## DragonDan

Here's one that I came across several years ago. This one has something fishy about it...










I have my doubts that this is a Gallet at all, other than the dial. It does have a Poljot 3133 caliber, which Gallet did use for one watch back in the 70's. It certainly looks like somebody cut out the date window with a screwdriver.


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## DragonDan

This one was brought to my attention, it is a marriage watch at best, but I do have serious doubts that this case and V7733 ever came from the Gallet factory.

Face. This is a Gallet dial, note the chipping paint at 2 o'clock. This particular dial was prone to flaking, but it is a factory dial.
This style of case I've never seen Gallet use before. They did use a cushion case in 7733 format once, but it's lugs were very different. Plus, who uses internal pusher caps?









Caliber. Note how the Gallet & Co. looks lasered on, and the kerning is odd









Caseback. The wording is correct, but the spacing is again, odd. A factory case would have the spacing favor each word, as opposed to the overall arc.









Remember the dial? This image I grabbed from an ebay sale back in September 2015. Note the flaking, this is the dial on our marriage watch


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## DragonDan

I'm looking through old sales posts and ebay, but cannot find images of the 'rash' of shaved chrono bridge watches offered as Gallet pieces a few months ago. There were several Gallet's, mostly V72 calibers, where the original maker's name was ground off and Gallet (and presumably more) was newly engraved in its place.

These are easily known by the lack of dishing around the jewels.

This image shows a proper Valjoux 72, but with a replaced chrono bridge, so we are not sure if it is fully a Gallet watch. The balance bridge does not show the JXR import code, either. This is not wholly unusual for newer models, but with no Gallet & Co branding on the caliber, it brings questions.









Here is a proper V72, a newer version, circa 1970's. Notice the deep dishes around the two jewels, this is a factory piece. 









An older Gallet V72, this one from the late 1940's to early 1950's.


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## pantelis25

Here is the pic you were looking for Dan, shaved bridge from a valjoux of a Multichron


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## trim

Ugh, so many shaved bridges out there in all brands. Its so obvious, I wonder why they don't fill and plate.

You guys are doing good work here.


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## DragonDan

Thank you Pantelis, glad you saved one of those images. 

What's sad is that these are genuine Valjoux 72 calibers, considered to be one of the best available at the time. Is it worth the few extra dollars/ Yen/ Euro/ etc. that a "name" might bring as opposed to just selling a perfectly good watch and not damaging your reputation?

Sheesh, I sound like a naive boy scout...


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## trim

DragonDan said:


> Sheesh, I sound like a naive boy scout...


Well, I agree with you - so perhaps I can claim that woggle too.


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## 767driver

I would like the opinion of the Gallet fans here. I have been seeing an advert for many months on Chrono24 for a Gallet Galco. I recently messaged with the seller (joseph-watches.com / Gisbert A. Joseph SLU) and learned he has 12 of these left, so they can't be that rare. He is asking $741 + $56 shipping to US. I like the vintage diver vibe of the watch and was considering buying one. Would anyone here care to comment on this watch and in particular the price?


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## Dan S

767driver said:


> I would like the opinion of the Gallet fans here. I have been seeing an advert for many months on Chrono24 for a Gallet Galco. I recently messaged with the seller (joseph-watches.com / Gisbert A. Joseph SLU) and learned he has 12 of these left, so they can't be that rare. He is asking $741 + $56 shipping to US. I like the vintage diver vibe of the watch and was considering buying one. Would anyone here care to comment on this watch and in particular the price?


The condition is nice, but I think that's a lot to pay for a diver-style watch with no particular brand name. There are a lot of legitimate and collectible vintage dive watches you could get for that price.


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## DragonDan

Hi 767,
This Galco is more a Racine than a Gallet, but it is still a wholly-owned trademark of Gallet. I personally like those chunky diver watches, I believe it houses an A. Schild or similar caliber, that is perfectly sturdy and functional but maybe not 'flashy'.

The short version is that Jules Racine was a cousin of the Gallet's, and was their sole US importer for a number of years. Towards the 60's and 70's, they branched out trying to build more of the Racine brand. That's why you saw "Gallet by Racine" and even "Jules Racine & CO." stamped on the caliber bridge parts and casebacks from time to time. 
So it's a legitimate Gallet sub-brand, not a fake at all.

There's an ebay listing for one with a really poor caliber photo. If you like the watch, see if they will take a bid offer from you.
~D



767driver said:


> I would like the opinion of the Gallet fans here. I have been seeing an advert for many months on Chrono24 for a Gallet Galco. I recently messaged with the seller (joseph-watches.com / Gisbert A. Joseph SLU) and learned he has 12 of these left, so they can't be that rare. He is asking $741 + $56 shipping to US. I like the vintage diver vibe of the watch and was considering buying one. Would anyone here care to comment on this watch and in particular the price?


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## georges zaslavsky

great thread with great feedback, thanks for posting


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## kazrich

Don't buy at that price - just wait.
I sold mine for £ 150.00 18 months ago. They are genuine NOS but ---
1. They do wear very small for their stated size
2. The bezels are very plasticky and cheap looking _ the watch has very little wrist presence
3. I bought mine from a an ebay trader in Israel who sells them periodically around the £ 130 - £ 150.00 mark. He must have bought a lot of old stock.
They are nice everyday budget watches and Galco was a Gallet brand, but better to use the cash for a deposit for a real Gallet. I don't miss mine at all.
They are being seriously hyped. If they had no Gallet connection they would be £ 60- 80 second hand watches.


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## Tucayjordan

First of all, thank you very much DragonDan for opening this thread!

I guess that sometimes a franken or modified Gallet or Gallet part will be obvious... but other times it won´t be easy to determine its authenticity or if it is or it is not in its original condition...

And sometimes, at least for a while, it won´t be possible to be sure 100%...

There is currently for sale an impressive black dial for a vintage Gallet Flight Officer ("Not repainted or redone! Untouched one.", says the auction text)...

If it is an original one then it could be a very interesting part to restore a watch... but if it is not original (or not in its original condition and it has been redone) perhaps someone will pay a price that it is not worth...

So, let´s play... What do you think about this dial? Any possible discordance or do you think that everything is correct?


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## DragonDan

**Edit. This is a redial. See my post below.

*original
Everything looks to be authentic. The dial feet look chewed up, so this was in a watch. 
Seems to be one of those incredibly rare dials in excellent condition. A Truman version as well, can't ask for more than that. This will go for a pretty penny. 
-Daniel 

TCJ:
There is currently for sale an impressive black dial for a vintage Gallet Flight Officer

So, let´s play... What do you think about this dial? Any possible discordance or do you think that everything is correct?



Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


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## Tucayjordan

OK Daniel. It looks like a grail Gallet dial but in my humble, humble, humble opinion there are some possible discordances that are suspicious:

-I have seen examples of these early *black* dials without the "Brevet demande" or "Brevet 215450" engraved but I have not seen examples without "*Waterproof*" engraved.

-There are examples of early *black* dials with different types of number squeme in the subdials but all of them had the edges with *little "squared" compartments* to mark the seconds (the 9 o´clock subdial) and to count the minutes (the 3 o´clock subdial). If I am not wrong the early black dials of Gallet Flight Officer did not have only plain *batons* in the subdials.

-And as you said the feet are chewed up which means that this dial was in a watch... but it is almost in perfect conditions... this is not a proof of anything in itself but if I put all together I would say that this dial has been redone... I would say that but I would not say it categorically at all... perhaps it is a rare and unique example of an early Gallet Flight Officer black dial...


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## DragonDan

TCJ,
I'm heading out for a long bicycle ride now, but will look into this deeper when I get back.
I'll do a side-by-side comparison.
-Daniel 


Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


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## DragonDan

Okay, I've looked at this V150 dial in reference to known vintage 1st generation Flight Officer models, and declare this to be redone.

























It's a very close redial, somebody took care with this project. Compare to another 1st gen dial, with the green background.
First, it's perfect. Pretty much impossible given a: it is 70 years old, and b: the back of the watch suggests more use than the condition of the face.

Details: look at the 0 in ten o'clock, it's fatter than the original. The 2 in both noon and two o'clock has a longer top arch than the original. Plus, without exception, all Flight Officer dials left the factory with lume on the main arabic numbers.

The center snail track is too far to the right, and it is slightly too small overall
Subdials show the incorrect subdivisions

Yes, there are small variations over the years, but those do not explain the inconsistencies shown.

It's too bad the seller lists this as original NOS. Maybe they do not know, who's to say.

*edit, I just noticed this:
This dial is certainly trying to match the style of the original watch with the green background (the black background watch has much larger subdials).
On the 0-60 chapter ring, the 20 through 40 are upside down....


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## jackruff

As the vintage watch opportunism juggernaut continues we seem to see the advent of the ever increasing NOS finds...Any comment on this dial??


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## ruewatches

jackruff said:


> As the vintage watch opportunism juggernaut continues we seem to see the advent of the ever increasing NOS finds...Any comment on this dial??
> 
> View attachment 13047149


probably my first post here.

so me and jackruff have been talking about this particular nav (on instagram) with a black dial from a seller on instagram. the problem i have with this guy is that he constantly have "nos" watches in hand. everyone doesn't seem to mind it but i do. in fact i called him out on one cause he called it nos while hes wearing it on his hairy arm :-d. he blocked me a few days later.

the picture seemed photoshopped - maybe he smoothed it out?

anyway, this piece seems too good to be true. the one from mentawatches sold on ebay (white dial) for $6100usd and that wasn't working.


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## DragonDan

My problem with this is the same as with the Truman/ 1st Gen dial above.
It's too perfect.

Even if this was purchased in 1940, and instantly wrapped in silk brocade and placed into temperature controlled vacuum, the paint would age over the course of seven decades.

I did not know about the sellers continual 'barn finds', but it starts to make sense. We are seeing convincingly good reproduction work crop up now. 
Of course there is no way to fake a sextant-handed EP4 caliber, that much is genuine. Somebody else mentioned that this dial is closer to the Zenith version than the Gallet version, that was a good observation. 

The thing is, if this was labeled a redial, people would still be quite happy to plunk down top dollar for it. 
But to list it as genuine, that's not right. 


Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


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## jackruff

There seems to be 2 versions of the navigator according to Galletworld - both have been used by Gallet - a multiscale and a seconds scale version...(not sure about Zenith although they have a multiscale version on GW) 
Below is a grey EP version (not navi) that I seem to remember authenticity has been questioned before...EP thread? If you look at these two perfect dials they are remarkably same...


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## Tucayjordan

I saw this beautiful piece and it took me several days to try to discern if it was original or not.

Most of the examples that I had seen of Gallet Navigator or Zenith Sextan(t) had case serial numbers between 790000 and 830000 but finally I found another example with 890000 in the Watchuseek thread of Daniel about Gallet/Excelsior Park case serial numbers (this one belonged to Datreedude and it has engraved Dec *1950* in the caseback). So the case serial number matchs properly.

My other concern was that this dial has not engraved the word SWISS and it is the only Gallet Navigator example with this characteristic.

It is also the only Gallet Navigator example with black dial without tele-tackymeter scales.

There is not another Gallet Navigator with this specific dial or, at least, so far it is the only one that I have seen.

Its dial is *identical* to the Zenith Sextan(t), but signed Gallet. The Zenith Sextan(t) does not have engraved SWISS either.

An extremely famous Zenith Sextan(t) was sold in the Phillips auction "Start-Stop-Reset" on 14th May 2016... for 46000 CHF... with the exchange rates of that day, it was equivalent to about 42000 EUR or 47500 USD...

The case is perfect and original. The movement is perfect and original. The hands are perfect and original. The dial is perfect and... original? My feeling is that it could be original...

To me the main issue of this beauty is that I cannot afford its price...

The seller, Santi Martínez, is from Barcelona and he is not only selling vintage watches in excellent conditions, he is also running a manufacture that makes watches from scratch (Atelier de Chronometrie)... To me his work is exquisite and his reputation is excellent... why to put this reputation at risk for a small fraction of his bussiness?

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/atelier-de-chronometrie-salonqp-introducing


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## DragonDan

Several months ago, there was a number of these service dials sold by someone in Switzerland over on ebay. I believe these were intended to be factory replacement dials for in-house service work, as opposed to an option available in a complete watch to the public.

JR, it is a valid point about the similarities. Is somebody taking these service dials (or other used dial), and performing some excellent redial work? I do know there are companies that offer such precise work. I've seen a Gallet Flight Officer watch that went through Gallet's redial service, and it took me a while to realize it was not original. Of course, it was a redial requested by the customer, but the work was gorgeous.

My question is, where are these people sourcing Excelsior Park calibers/ cases? They are not as plentiful as say, a V773x or a L149 or even a R72. 
A 'needs work' but pretty stock Gallet V7730 just sold on ebay for $500 (item# 112891323877).



jackruff said:


> Below is a grey EP version (not navi) that I seem to remember authenticity has been questioned before...EP thread? If you look at these two perfect dials they are remarkably same...
> 
> View attachment 13047687


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## jackruff

Dan I can understand Gallet generating replacement dials for its restoration service for known models... i.e Navigator but what about the grey dials?? What known model do they replace..??? What is the point of this arbitrary dial??

And money... the love of... the motivation of all evil.... :-] AFAIK the two black dials - one Zenith that sold at auction and the one gallet currently available have a total value exceeding 100000 AUD... Serious motivation (integrity dependent!!!)

Interestingly or not!!?? another grey dial came up on eBay last night... Completely disappeared by this morning (AUS time)...!!?? I took a photo.. :-.. Same dial as the other pristine ones...

So where to from here...Gallet???


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## ruewatches

money can be make a reputable seller/dealer cook up watches. if he could make watches, he could do anything. i find it hard to believe that a seller has that many "nos" watches to sell. someone even called him the "king of nos". i almost puked.

one of the sellers on ebay with a flying officer listing has been selling gallet pieces.

whats interesting is that hes from Duluth, Georgia (here in the USA) - about 10-15 minutes away from Peachtree, Georgia where the Gallet service center is located. it might be a coincidence but hey.. anythings possible.


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## DragonDan

jackruff said:


> Dan I can understand Gallet generating replacement dials for its restoration service for known models... i.e Navigator but what about the grey dials?? What known model do they replace..??? What is the point of this arbitrary dial??
> 
> And money... the love of... the motivation of all evil.... :-] AFAIK the two black dials - one Zenith that sold at auction and the one gallet currently available have a total value exceeding 100000 AUD... Serious motivation (integrity dependent!!!)
> 
> Interestingly or not!!?? another grey dial came up on eBay last night... Completely disappeared by this morning (AUS time)...!!?? I took a photo.. :-.. Same dial as the other pristine ones...
> 
> So where to from here...Gallet???
> 
> View attachment 13050115


Hi JR, those silver/ black dials always have ExPark on them, I've never seen one labeled Gallet. By service dials, I was meaning Excelsior Park's service department.
Even though Gallet used the lions share of EP's production, they had their own separate in-house department for Gallet service. 
But, these dials were for the EP4 caliber. That's why it is plausible somebody is now using these pristine dials as a base for a "NOS" fabrication.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


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## jackruff

DragonDan said:


> Hi JR, those silver/ black dials always have ExPark on them, I've never seen one labeled Gallet. By service dials, I was meaning Excelsior Park's service department.
> Even though Gallet used the lions share of EP's production, they had their own separate in-house department for Gallet service.
> But, these dials were for the EP4 caliber. That's why it is plausible somebody is now using these pristine dials as a base for a "NOS" fabrication.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Yes Thanks DD... main point remains though... that this is an arbitrary dial (AFAIK) as I have never seen an aged/old one just the pristine ones of which the Gallet navigator NOS is very similar...

So did EP just make up this dial as a replacement for the EP4 calibre irrespective of the multitude of different dials from the throng of manufacturers using EP4?? I guess that makes economic sense but not for the collector...


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## Tucayjordan

jackruff said:


> So did EP just make up this dial as a replacement for the EP4 calibre irrespective of the multitude of different dials from the throng of manufacturers using EP4??


I cannot answer this question but I agree that I have never seen one of these specific dials assembled in its original Excelsior Park. These dials were sold about two years ago by Peter Wyss, a Swiss ebayer. He bought a huge amount of Excelsior Park parts when they went to bankruptcy in 1984.


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## DragonDan

Something that was brought to my attention by a watchmaker friend.

The dial feet have been chopped, so this cannot be installed properly in a watch. Can anyone else confirm this? 
I do have a V150-based Gallet, however I've never had the dial off of it.










This might be a slight issue for somebody about to pay about a thousand US dollars for a redial that can't be used.

*Edit
I asked the seller if he was aware this was a redial that cannot be installed. He said he got it from an old Gallet-authorized watchmaker, and that he didn't notice that the feet were damaged. Sounds like willful ignorance to me.


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## Tucayjordan

Finally it was sold for 1575 USD plus postage...


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## DragonDan

Yeah, I don't see this going well for the seller. 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


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## DragonDan

A new one for your viewing pleasure (sort of). Gallet did provide chronos to several countries' air forces, but I'm not sure they ever made this one.

the logo is just terrible. I'm not too worried about the crest, those are often fuzzy.
The side-by-side shows what the Gallet Hands-in-G logo should look like.
















The Valjoux 23 looks good, but has no Gallet markings. I am suspicious of the Gallet & Co inscription in the caseback. Usually its spacing favors words, and has a larger arc over the SWISS nomenclature. Doesn't it seem like that chrono bridge is a different finish than everything else in the movement? That generally speaks of a replacement.










In case you were wondering, Gallet sent me this spreadsheet that shows how many of each Valjoux caliber they used.


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## kazrich

Interesting !
Didn't know that Val 72 was around in 1938.
Presumably they lost sales records for the 72C calender version ?


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## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> In case you were wondering, Gallet sent me this spreadsheet that shows how many of each Valjoux caliber they used.


Nice to have this documentation, and it looks like they produced quite a lot of watches with the Valjoux 726. I remember there was a question about this in a previous Multichron Pilot thread.


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## pantelis25

Daniel would it be possible to have such a list for the excelsior park watches produced?


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## Tucayjordan

kazrich said:


> Didn't know that Val 72 was around in 1938.


It would only make sense to me if that this list included the Valjoux 71 from 1938 into the Valjoux 72 "family"...

I also understand that this list includes all the movements made by Valjoux for all the brands that assembled them, not only Gallet...

I would say that the last Gallet posted by DragonDan is not original... the movement unsigned, the logo...


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## Tucayjordan

What do you think about this one?



























It assembles a Landeron 47 that was made circa 1937... Do you think that it matchs with the rest of the watch? What do you think about its types of fonts?


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## Dan S

Tucayjordan said:


> What do you think about this one?
> 
> It assembles a Landeron 47 that was made circa 1937... Do you think that it matchs with the rest of the watch? What do you think about its types of fonts?


I'm guessing it's a franken wrapped in a redial inside a fake, just on general principles. The dial has all the signs of a re-dial and the movement looks like it was assembled from various parts and pieces. Case-back inscription looks totally fake.


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## kazrich

Just going out , but at a quick look --
Dial patina looks suspiciously even and remarkably similar to the tea bag I just disposed of ( used for drinking not 'improving' the age of one of my dials you understand ).
No natural irregular foxing or marking, just a sort of even aged look ?
Hands may have been re lumed many years ago but not sure if they are original.
The onion bulb crown looks a trifle ostentatious for a Gallet chronograph . They worked in the ' professional ' chrono market and didn't even bother to sign their crowns. Maybe from a pocket watch ?
The case back inscription whether inscribed at the Gallet factory or a military watchmaker looks wrong. The type is all capitals yet they don't line up in height. The P in DEPT is too small.
It all looks hand done and I don't think they had Sharpie pens back then.


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## DragonDan

Ugh, a forgery of epic proportions. "Hey, let's throw a military reference on there, that'll be worth a couple extra bucks!"



Tucayjordan said:


> What do you think about this one?
> 
> View attachment 13090367
> 
> 
> It assembles a Landeron 47 that was made circa 1937... Do you think that it matchs with the rest of the watch? What do you think about its types of fonts?


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## DragonDan

Agree with you TCJ, it's an incomplete list, the V71 is nowhere to be seen.

I do believe this is Gallet's use of Valjoux calibers, not the production output of Valjoux. It makes sense to me because:
* It's believable that Gallet used 129,000 of the V22 over the course of 52 years. That's less than 2,500 per year.
* Valjoux probably made more than 300 of the V237 caliber, even if it is a variant of the V23.
* The V726 was very popular in the late 60's, early 70's, I can see an average of 9,400 per year being sold.

~Daniel



Tucayjordan said:


> It would only make sense to me if that this list included the Valjoux 71 from 1938 into the Valjoux 72 "family"...
> 
> I also understand that this list includes all the movements made by Valjoux for all the brands that assembled them, not only Gallet...


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## DragonDan

I just chatted with the new owner of this watch over on the Gallet facebook pages. He's returning it to the seller. I did offer to have him post up any new Gallet that catches his eye before hitting the buy button. 
~Daniel



Tucayjordan said:


> What do you think about this one?
> 
> View attachment 13090367
> 
> 
> It assembles a Landeron 47 that was made circa 1937... Do you think that it matchs with the rest of the watch? What do you think about its types of fonts?


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## Tucayjordan

1


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## Tucayjordan

Another one... 5500 USD... "100% AUTHENTIC"...


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## laikrodukas

wow what a wreck


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## Dan S

OK, what is the verdict on this Gallet clamshell with Venus 175? The watch looks amazing, but I'm not familiar with this model and the movement is unsigned.

fine vintage watches - orologi d'epoca e secondo polso Gallet,vintage,1940's,waterproof,clamshell,steel, chronograph, cal.,Venus 175,


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## Tucayjordan

badbackdan said:


> OK, what is the verdict on this Gallet clamshell with Venus 175? The watch looks amazing, but I'm not familiar with this model and the movement is unsigned.
> 
> fine vintage watches - orologi d'epoca e secondo polso Gallet,vintage,1940's,waterproof,clamshell,steel, chronograph, cal.,Venus 175,
> 
> This one is a genuine, 100% original... franken!!!!
> 
> The dial belongs to a Gallet with Venus 188 (it is even smaller than the case). The rest of the watch is not Gallet at all. It tries to imitate a Gallet Clamshell but the case with brevet 189190 is bigger (36.80mm instead of 34.40mm) and it is not signed Gallet. The diameter of the movement indicates that it is a Venus 175 instead of a Venus 150 and it is not signed Gallet either.
> 
> 3890 EUR... very tricky seller...
> 
> .. it could be a respectable and reliable chronograph if it had assembled any plain, unsigned dial... but trying to sell this one like an "original" Gallet is a fraud...


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## Tucayjordan

1


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## DragonDan

Marriage watch, BB Dan. It really looks like a standard Venus 150 variant, but has no Gallet markings. Dial is a full-on reprint. The serif style logo is proper for the time period, but no watch from the early 1940's looks that good. Why does it strike me that the case is a new manufacture? Or somebody really took time in polishing it up.

Just like that black dialed regulator they are also selling, a reprinted dial.


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## Dan S

Thanks @Tucayjordan and @DragonDan. It seemed much too good to be true. That seller also has some very nice watches and he doesn't seem like a deliberate scammer. Probably he is not very knowledgable about Gallet.


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## Shane Reed

DragonDan said:


> Ugh, a forgery of epic proportions. "Hey, let's throw a military reference on there, that'll be worth a couple extra bucks!"


The dial is not white or creamy. Actually its a copper tone, has an age mark by the 10 second that was covered by the minute hand. I could not help but to open this up as I was at my watch makers bringing him a few other watches. We discussed this watch for quite some time.


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## Dan S

A supposedly NOS Flight Officer on eBay. The seller claims that he got this from the CEO of Gallet. If true, this would be a highly collectible watch, so why would he put it on eBay?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GA...836842?hash=item3632c26daa:g:~L4AAOSw48dbBQU-


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## Dan S

A supposedly NOS Flight Officer on eBay. The seller claims that he got this from the CEO of Gallet. If true, this would be a highly collectible watch, so why would he put it on eBay?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GA...836842?hash=item3632c26daa:g:~L4AAOSw48dbBQU-

View attachment 13161887


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## Tucayjordan

I can confirm that the seller, objectsofvirtue*com, has been working in Gallet USA. This seller has sold many extremely interesting Gallet chronographs along the last 3 or 4 years. (It is the same seller that ruewatches mentioned in this thread on 14th April).


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## Krogerfoot

Out of curiosity, what language do those city names represent? Where do they use the Roman alphabet to spell out San Francisko, Fidji, Havai, and Bagdag?


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## DragonDan

KF, Gallet is a Swiss company close to the French border. While I'm no language expert, would these be German?



Krogerfoot said:


> Out of curiosity, what language do those city names represent? Where do they use the Roman alphabet to spell out San Francisko, Fidji, Havai, and Bagdag?


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## DragonDan

Another marriage watch just showed up. *** Edited to include new information from Gallet ***










Gallet did use a chromed bezel, they were among the last FO's of the 70's, when they were trying to stay afloat from the quartz crisis. The logo on the dial is the "hands in G" style that Gallet started using in the early 1970's, but the movement is probably from the very early 1960's - a non sequitur. The hour/ minute hands, what were they thinking?

This has a Landeron 248 caliber, which we now know to be a replacement, non-Gallet caliber. It probably had the Landeron 149 originally. Why do they insist on not putting in the movement hold-down screws? That's such a simple thing, and it speaks of shoddy workmanship to me. Note the non-incabloc balance wheel. Heck, Gallet have used incabloc on FO's since 1939-ish. 


















All in all, a genuine case/ dial, but the movement was swapped out
~D


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## Krogerfoot

Fidji is the French spelling of Fiji, but San Francisko, Tokio, and Havai definitely aren't French. Tokio looks Spanish, but Romance languages usually use Londres or something similar for London, unless they're trying to make it look cosmopolitan. Moskva is the way Moscow would be pronounced in a lot of Slavic languages. Searching for these spellings online brought me to Serbian Wikipedia's Latin orthography pages, but "Bagdag" doesn't get many hits that don't seem like typos for Baghdad. I can't figure out what Djask is supposed to be either.


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## Krogerfoot

This article is about a similar watch with a similar too-good-to-be-true backstory and a few, but not all, of the same idiosyncratic spellings (SAN FRANCISKO is there, but not BAGDAG) as the pristine white FO above.

Fascinating how the owner seems to have been given multiple unused examples of this watch by the CEO of Gallet himself.

Edited to add: The "amazing unused condition" FO that BBDan spotted was supposedly issued for the Swiss air force before being locked away in suspended animation for 40 years. Just look at that precision-tooled Swiss Cross on the caseback.


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## jaspert

badbackdan said:


> Thanks @Tucayjordan and @DragonDan. It seemed much too good to be true. That seller also has some very nice watches and he doesn't seem like a deliberate scammer. Probably he is not very knowledgable about Gallet.


Over time, i have noted a few refinished or suspicious dials ( pristine dial with same print - just different brands ) advertised as original from this seller for me to start to doubt him now.


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## DragonDan

Djask was a city in the Middle East. I believe it was WatchFred that did some research on it a while back. It was a port city, and part of a trade route for airplanes.

On ObjectsofVirtue, I've followed that seller for some time. The proof is in the pudding, certainly. I have no doubt their pieces are fully authentic, everything checks out from my eyes. 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


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## Krogerfoot

I am far from an expert, and I don't mean to argue with someone who knows a lot more than me about these things, nor cast aspersions on an honest dealer. However, so many things set off my suspicions about the watches I mentioned, I'd really like to know if I'm overlooking something.

The watch listed here is described by the seller as "one of the few remaining examples that the Gallet company retained from a 1970's contract with the Swiss Air Force." To my inexpert eyes, the watch doesn't look like a 1970s design-it most closely resembles a 2nd-generation design from the WWII era, but with a 1970s-era Gallet logo. Later Gallet military-issue watches are clearly not meant to be throwback designs. Would the Swiss military specify such a retro design?

The seller continues:

While working for Gallet a few years back, I was very fortunate to acquire this important chronograph directly from the CEO in such amazing unused condition. Apparently stored away for most of its 40 plus years, the case shows the no signs of use. Protected from exposure to UV light, the luminous at the hands and markers remains bright and white.​
This is indeed a stroke of luck, to be gifted an example of such a sought-after watch directly from the CEO of the company. But the seller must have been remarkably incurious about it-it was "apparently" stored away for 40 years? The CEO of the Gallet company had it for 40 years and just recently decided to give it to the seller, with no explanation for why or how it had been preserved in utterly pristine condition? The "luminous at the hands and markers . . ." Do watch pros really talk like this? Again, I can think of a thousand reasons why my skepticism is out of line-I freely admit that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I can see how the seller's priority is exciting potential buyers in order to drum up business, and maybe the description was written hastily. The typos certainly seem to testify to that. However, the other point that strikes me as really hard to believe is that this watch is actually the _second_ unworn, untouched Flight Officer that the seller has run across. The same seller sold a nearly identical Flight Officer in 2016. Except for the logo and the spelling of "BAGDAD" rather than "BAGDAG" on the dial, the watch is almost exactly the same as the one listed currently. Curiously, the description is also nearly identical:

While working for Gallet, I was very fortunate to acquire this important chronograph in such amazing condition. Apparently stored away and handled with care for most of its 60 plus years, the case shows hardly any signs of use except for a small nick to the tip of one lug (see images). The dial (face) is in extraordinary 100% original condition with a slight natural patina to the luminous numbers. Receiving an expensive "Museum Style" restoration a few years back, which involved cleaning, lubrication, and calibration of the mechanics while not polishing away the watch's precious history, all time keeping and time recording features function perfectly and accurately.​
I've never run across a mention of "Museum Style restoration" before-is this a thing? For someone who worked for Gallet, the seller is oddly imprecise about the provenance of the watch, and it seems especially odd to describe the restoration process only as "expensive"-the seller had to pay for it?

Another odd thing: the photos in the listing show one watch, but the link to the description shows another watch entirely, or at least a different face.

The 2016 listing shows the caseback with its USA Ord. Dept. markings.









Is this what a WWII-era military watch would have? Most military-issue items have a crisp stamp, but this looks to be hand-engraved, and not very skillfully. Military markings in my meager experience tend to be more informative yet cryptic to civilians. I would have also expected "Ordnance Corps" instead of Ordnance Department, but what do I know.

It's not much better than the sad Swiss cross on the back of the currently listed watch.









That makes two watches in the span of two years, one from the 1940s and one from the 1970s, that have been offered as untouched, exquisitely preserved models that share nearly identical backstories, nearly identical designs, and engravings that seem to have been done by the same clumsy hand.

Again, I don't mean to challenge anyone here, and I hope and think it's likely that I'm completely wrong. Please set me straight, if so.


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## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> I am far from an expert, and I don't mean to argue with someone who knows a lot more than me about these things, nor cast aspersions on an honest dealer. However, so many things set off my suspicions about the watches I mentioned, I'd really like to know if I'm overlooking something....


I don't think you're out of line at all. This seller seems to have a lot of special Gallet watches, but I think it would be a mistake to simply assume that they are all legit, even if some of them are authentic. This watch definitely raises some issues for me, and the only other Swiss Military FO models I can find are black-dialed. The lume (if that's what it is) looks funny and the movement is unsigned and poorly finished. Someone is going to pay a lot for this watch, but it won't be me.


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## mephisto

badbackdan said:


> A supposedly NOS Flight Officer on eBay. The seller claims that he got this from the CEO of Gallet. If true, this would be a highly collectible watch, so why would he put it on eBay?


i find the FO quite beautiful and have been looking for one for a while. this one popped up and the condition of the watch immediately set off some flags for me (spidey-senses having been tuned on the vintage rolex side of things). i did a search and came across this thread among some other interesting stuff...

the seller of this watch is listed as the present-day managing director and COO of Gallet (in possession of this watch as of 5 days ago according to a fb post). he says Mr. Bernard Gallet gave it to him 12 years ago. according to Gallet's wikipedia page, he assumed the managing director/COO role in 2005 so the math works out if this is, in fact, the case. the Gallet wikipedia page lists him as "head watchmaker and COO". on his linkdin page, he lists himself "CEO & watch designer" of Gallet since 2001.

i can't get over how shoddy the swiss cross engraved on the caseback is....

ebay listing photo:









look how different it is from this chrono24 listing (but with same numbers?)
https://www.chrono24.com/gallet/flight-fliyng-officer--id6925342.htm









this photo of a caseback on the Gallet wikiwand shows a marginally better done cross engraving. though the crosses are different, the AS 7584 markings are engraved in the same place (belly of the 5 at the centre of the machining swirls). 
Flying Officer Chronograph - Wikiwand









without any documentation there isn't any way to validate a piece like this. the fact that the seller is so close/enmeshed with the company is problematic to me given that that relationship is undisclosed. are there other examples of this FO configuration in the wild? if not it's difficult to feel good about the authenticity of this model being sold by someone with access to Gallets part stores. it isn't my intention to make any accusations but this constellation of factors is question begging imho


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## mephisto

history on the swiss air force caseback

(written by the same individual in question above i might add)


> "Desperately trying to navigate the difficult "quartz crisis", patriach Bernard Gallet attempted all sorts of experimental strategies to survive these difficult times. During the period that these watches were produced, the Swiss and Russian air forces were involved in a few joint exercises. By releasing a model utilizing a Russian Poljot movement, partially as a goodwill gesture, it was hoped that this would help to expand sales of Gallet's watches to the Russian market. You will notice that most examples with Poljot movements also have Swiss Air Force marking on the case back. This one of many strategies by Bernard Gallet still didn't much offset the downturn in sales caused by the mass introduction of inexpensive Japanese quartz watches into the world timepiece market. There has been countless retrospective discussions as to how matters could have been better handled during the "quartz crisis" with consensus agreement that we should have moved upward with even more exclusive watches as attempts to compete in the lower range proved futile. Even Rolex and Patek Philippe released a few quartz based watches during this period. Thank goodness the world has come to its senses, at least in this way."


Gallet Flying officier movment


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## Dan S

It's also sketchy that the seller has listed it as a private auction where all bidder identities are protected. There's really no justification for this in an auction of this type, and just makes bidders rightly suspicious that something is going on.


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## mephisto

i'm new to the brand and unfamiliar with the scholarship behind vintage Gallet. is there any authentication method for these "issued' watches akin to the MN ledger, decomission papers or serial number database available for MN Tudors, dirty dozen/MoD watches?

if the seller is still involved with the company in the same capacity (COO/marketing director/head watchmaker/etc), the provenance of this watch being "swiss air force/swiss military issue" (as listed on the ad) should be easily supported by any documentation such as proof of a contract with the swiss air force, comission spec from the swiss air force or any kind of records from their archives. as a collector, i would have no qualms about paying a handsome sum for a flight officer with this type of supporting paperwork

the Galletworld website notes...


> "Rumoured to have been developed upon specific request by Harry S Truman for the United States Army Air Forces, this ground breaking new timepiece was first issued exclusively to the American and British pilots who flew the missions to our victory during WWII. After the war, the Flight Officer became a watch of choice for both commercial and private aviators across the globe."


were these really issued to american and british pilots? is there proof of gallet winning tender for such a comission? asking as a someone trying to learn about the brand. that no scholarship/research exists for these issued watches compared to, for instance, the french military commissioned Breguet type XX (Auricoste, Dodane and Vixa also made examples) from the 50s or other issued watches is disappointing.

the facebook page that is linked on the galletworld website is the same one where you can find the individual posting about the watch currently offered on ebay on may 22.


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## Dan S

It seems to be conventional wisdom that Gallet chronographs were military issued at some point. I don't really doubt it, but I also don't know of proof or any way to authenticate, so I wouldn't pay much more for an example that was supposedly "issued".


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## Krogerfoot

I wasn't expecting to learn that the seller is the COO of Gallet. If he wants to auction off his gifts from the company, I guess that's his prerogative. I wish the descriptions of the watch and its backstory were not so indifferently written-why say "while working for Gallet some years back" or the like if you still work for them?

Apart from these two never-seen-the-light-of-day watches, there are a lot of mysteries around the Gallet FO design that I want to look into. The spellings of "SAN FRANCISKO" and "BAGDAG" on the dial of some models still baffle me. I'd be very interested to find out more about that. The (presumably legit) photos of Flight Officer models through the years on the Gallet World page show SAN FRANCISKO on a number of models, but I'm not sure I can see any BAGDAGs.

Edited to add: Now that I've looked through several of the seller's past listings, it seems that the descriptions are just cut-and-paste jobs, which would explain the repetition (e.g., every listing has some variation of "While working for Gallet a few years back, I was very fortunate to acquire this important timepiece in such amazing condition. Apparently stored away and handled with care for most of its XX plus years . . ."). It also seems like the seller is nominally Gallet's former creative director, so that would account for the "a few years back" wording.


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## mephisto

:think:

Re: FS: Rare Vintage 60's GALLET MultiChron 12H Black Chrono


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## Krogerfoot

mephisto said:


> :think:
> 
> Re: FS: Rare Vintage 60's GALLET MultiChron 12H Black Chrono


:think: indeed. That was kind of sad reading.

Do a lot of watch companies deal also in vintage resale? I always thought it was odd that Gallet World's web site included estimated auction values of their past models, especially since (I think) those values haven't been updated in years.

Even if everything is 100% on the up-and-up, it's disappointing that there isn't more information provided about these seemingly important watches.


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## Shane Reed

Krogerfoot said:


> :think: indeed. That was kind of sad reading.
> 
> Do a lot of watch companies deal also in vintage resale? I always thought it was odd that Gallet World's web site included estimated auction values of their past models, especially since (I think) those values haven't been updated in years.
> 
> Even if everything is 100% on the up-and-up, it's disappointing that there isn't more information provided about these seemingly important watches.


I have to agree!!! This is a response that I just received.
"Hi Shane, I regret to say that your watch is not an authentic Gallet. The watch is represented as being from the 40's but the signature on the inner case back is a copy of a later Gallet mark. We have no record of producing a case with fixed lug bar for attaching the strap during this period as we. The dial has been refinished with the incorrect font style. Also, the Ord. Dept. markings on the reverse appear to be acid etched in a more contemporary font than is appropriate. The genuine military markings would be hand engraved in a more period appropriate type style. Sorry for this disappointing information."

So here is the issue: A- This watch has a movement from "1937" not the 40's, very easy to note the year of watch not being from the 40's as movement was made one year only "the inner case back is a copy of a later Gallet mark." YUP! Not 40's
B-"We have no record of producing a case with fixed lug bar for attaching the strap during this period"- Yup! Obviously the the bars were welded on bottom of lugs later, and was originally a spring bar. Not uncommon and have seen that before.. 
C- " Also, the Ord. Dept. markings on the reverse appear to be acid etched in a more contemporary font than is appropriate" Please explain? These marks appear to be of the same depth, and deeper of any British military ATP of the same period I own, and have been able to find the same rough markings on US military pocket watches
I have offered to send this watch to be evaluated in hand. In conclusion; with the lack of information as mentioned by above member, and the apparent issues of others posting; I will never ever purchase another watch with the Gallet name on it.


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## Dan S

Shane Reed said:


> I have to agree!!! This is a response that I just received.
> "Hi Shane, I regret to say that your watch is not an authentic Gallet. The watch is represented as being from the 40's but the signature on the inner case back is a copy of a later Gallet mark. We have no record of producing a case with fixed lug bar for attaching the strap during this period as we. The dial has been refinished with the incorrect font style. Also, the Ord. Dept. markings on the reverse appear to be acid etched in a more contemporary font than is appropriate. The genuine military markings would be hand engraved in a more period appropriate type style. Sorry for this disappointing information."
> 
> So here is the issue: A- This watch has a movement from "1937" not the 40's, very easy to note the year of watch not being from the 40's as movement was made one year only "the inner case back is a copy of a later Gallet mark." YUP! Not 40's
> B-"We have no record of producing a case with fixed lug bar for attaching the strap during this period"- Yup! Obviously the the bars were welded on bottom of lugs later, and was originally a spring bar. Not uncommon and have seen that before..
> C- " Also, the Ord. Dept. markings on the reverse appear to be acid etched in a more contemporary font than is appropriate" Please explain? These marks appear to be of the same depth, and deeper of any British military ATP of the same period I own, and have been able to find the same rough markings on US military pocket watches
> I have offered to send this watch to be evaluated in hand. In conclusion; with the lack of information as mentioned by above member, and the apparent issues of others posting; I will never ever purchase another watch with the Gallet name on it.


I understand that you're disappointed with this response, but I think it's mainly a different issue than was being discussed about the Flying Officer. I agree that your lug bar was clearly a retro-fit, but other than that I basically agree with the response from Gallet. The font on the dial and the inside of the case-back is wrong for a watch from that era. That's what this thread is here for, to vet watches before purchasing. In general, we can't count on manufacturers to do that for us.

However, the other concern that is being voiced is regarding some possible sketchy behavior, where someone connected to the Gallet company is selling watches that are claimed to be NOS vintage watches, but he is not being totally forthcoming about his connection to the company. This could lead to a perception of a conflict of interest, where Gallet authenticates the watch and also sells the watch. Probably each of us has his own idea about what is going on, but the worst-case scenario is that someone at Gallet is putting together watches out of spare parts, authenticating them as NOS watches, and then selling them under a different name on eBay. I'm not saying that this is the case, but this is the reason that one tries to avoid even the perception of a conflict of interest.


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## Krogerfoot

Shane, I read your story as I was snooping around the Web yesterday, and I agree yours is sadder. I'm sorry you got cheated.

I was mostly commenting on how exasperated both sides seemed in the argument mephisto turned up. In the end, the assertion that the original poster was so annoyed by turned out to be true: There is no meaningful separation between the person who sold him his watch and the authority that guaranteed its authenticity.

Here is the watch in question:








Although now that I've visited the Gallet World Facebook page that Dragon Dan has been beautifully curating for some years, it doesn't seem like anyone's making any real effort to hide the connection between the Objects of Virtue eBay seller and a corporate officer of Gallet. So I wonder if the seller of the 60s Multichron with the unusual hands was really indignant at being thought a dupe.


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## Krogerfoot

Shane Reed said:


> I have to agree!!! This is a response that I just received.
> "Hi Shane, I regret to say that your watch is not an authentic Gallet. The watch is represented as being from the 40's but the signature on the inner case back is a copy of a later Gallet mark. We have no record of producing a case with fixed lug bar for attaching the strap during this period as we. The dial has been refinished with the incorrect font style. Also, the Ord. Dept. markings on the reverse appear to be acid etched in a more contemporary font than is appropriate. The genuine military markings would be hand engraved in a more period appropriate type style. Sorry for this disappointing information."


Shane, can I ask where this response came from? I ran across your post asking about the Ord. Dept. inscription on another forum, and you mentioned then that Gallet USA had quickly replied and said the watch was a forgery just on the basis of the photos alone.

If you have other WWII-era military watches, what do you think of the assertion that "genuine military markings would be hand engraved"? It seems really doubtful that either a watch manufacturer or the US Army Ordnance Department* in the 1940s would engrave markings on issued equipment by hand rather than stamping it. A Google image search of "Property U.S.A Ord. Dept." turns up lots of WWII watches with uniform stamping of the casebacks.









Why waste time scratching several lines of text onto a watch back when you've got a war to fight? (Of course, service members often customized their own equipment and other belongings with hand inscriptions, and Gallet claims that their products were intended for elite officers, but still-how long would it take to hand-engrave markings on 100 watches? A thousand?)

I saw that Gallet has advised other inquirers that hand-engraved markings look authentic on other examples, but this is one of the things that really raised my eyebrows about some of the watches in this thread. The currently-being-auctioned Flying Officer purportedly never left the possession of anyone not employed by Gallet, but can we really believe that the inept-looking Swiss cross was added at the Gallet factory? If it was, what kind of operation were they running there in the 70s? If not, then how much of the backstory of the watch can be credited?

* By the way, I was wrong in my earlier post about this: The name was changed to Ordnance Corps in the 1950s.


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## pantelis25

Dear all, i just wanted to say that i have bought a number of watches from the seller Objectsofvirtue and i have to admit that are all genuine and perfect in condition. I see no issue or conflict of interest if Objectsofvirtue is or was working for Gallet. On the contrary i see Objectsofvirtue as an asset for us Gallet collectors. 
Regarding the FO that is for sale is your right to judge if authentic or not. If i was someone who thought that watch or story behind it is not genuine then i would just mention it on this thread, not bid on it and that's it.
However I would avoid judging integrity of a well known and honest seller who has sold many Gallet examples (all near to perfection). What If Objectsofvirtue is or was working for Gallet and collected the best examples around? What if Objectsofvirtue has a perfect collection and now downsizing?


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## Dan S

pantelis25 said:


> Dear all, i just wanted to say that i have bought a number of watches from the seller Objectsofvirtue and i have to admit that are all genuine and perfect in condition. I see no issue or conflict of interest if Objectsofvirtue is or was working for Gallet. On the contrary i see Objectsofvirtue as an asset for us Gallet collectors.
> Regarding the FO that is for sale is your right to judge if authentic or not. If i was someone who thought that watch or story behind it is not genuine then i would just mention it on this thread, not bid on it and that's it.
> However I would avoid judging integrity of a well known and honest seller who has sold many Gallet examples (all near to perfection). What If Objectsofvirtue is or was working for Gallet and collected the best examples around? What if Objectsofvirtue has a perfect collection and now downsizing?


I agree that perhaps there has been a lot of bashing of this particular seller, especially since eBay is littered with very sketchy behavior. But at the same time, the claims being made (repeatedly) by this seller are extraordinary, and I appreciate the research done by several posters. There is a clear conflict of interest in simultaneously authenticating and profiting from the sale of a questionable item, and even the appearance of this behavior should be carefully avoided. This was documented in this thread, and personally I'm grateful to be aware of it. Also, when a seller has sold a watch with sketchy military engraving as a military-issued watch (and even claimed to know the provenance of the watch), then it is useful to know that the person's opinion cannot be blindly trusted. I will be particularly careful to research watches from this seller in the future.

These issues have been explicitly documented in this thread, not by opinions or judgements or claims, but by research and facts. I appreciate your opinion, but obviously you may have your own vested interests in the authenticity of the items you purchased and/or in personally supporting the seller.


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## pantelis25

badbackdan said:


> I agree that perhaps there has been a lot of bashing of this particular seller, especially since eBay is littered with very sketchy behavior. But at the same time, the claims being made (repeatedly) by this seller are extraordinary, and I appreciate the research done by several posters. There is a clear conflict of interest in simultaneously authenticating and profiting from the sale of a questionable item, and even the appearance of this behavior should be carefully avoided. This was documented in this thread, and personally I'm grateful to be aware of it. Also, when a seller has sold a watch with sketchy military engraving as a military-issued watch (and even claimed to know the provenance of the watch), then it is useful to know that the person's opinion cannot be blindly trusted. I will be particularly careful to research watches from this seller in the future.
> 
> These issues have been explicitly documented in this thread, not by opinions or judgements or claims, but by research and facts. I appreciate your opinion, but obviously you may have your own vested interests in the authenticity of the items you purchased and/or in personally supporting the seller.


Dear Dan, i appreciate your opinion. Nobody told to blindly trust the particular or any seller. On the contrary everyone should research before any purchase.

Regarding the ''conflict of interest in simultaneously authenticating and profiting from the sale of a questionable item'', we would all appreciate if you have any proof that the team or person that authenticates the watches sent at Gallet is the same as the seller. That would be very helpful for everyone to make his own opinion. Of course that does not necessarily mean that there is an intention of fraud if both persons are the same! In the end nobody can support 100% the opposite, that the story behind the watch is not true.

On a personal level I do not need to support the authenticity of my watches as you say. I am not claiming any prize of the ''best Gallet collector''. If i ever want to sell any of my watches i will let the buyer use his knowledge to guide him. But i will never judge or comment any seller if he says something logical to support his sale. Also for the personal support for the seller you mention you are totally mistaken. Is a good word for a seller you have bought nice and correct watches considered as support? I think is called a reference?

But let us go again on the specific FO. Does anybody here know many brands who can document their military issued watches during late 70s? The seller claims that the watch was issued in a small number for Swiss Air Force. Small number maybe supports the non symmetrical engraving? Maybe Swiss Air Force would not mind if their watches were not signed Gallet or if the mvt was gold plated? Maybe Gallet produced them like this to save on cost? Maybe they already had parts to use for these watches and did not need to manufacture other? Who knows? Cmon, most companies at that time used different parts and patents to manufacture and sell watches.

I think we should let the buyer decide if he wants it or not, if is correct or not. In the end he is the one who is paying


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## Krogerfoot

I think everyone participating in this thread has been respectful and circumspect about the issues raised with regard to the items sold by the Objects of Virtue eBay store. I took a skeptical tone in my initial posts about the matter and I hope they didn't come off as snide. Once I became aware of the connection with a corporate officer of Gallet, I've tried to be especially careful; moreover, Dragon Dan's opinions on the subject of Gallet watches carry enormous weight with me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

To be as clear as possible, especially for the benefit of those for whom English is not a first language:

 I think it is possible that there is an innocent explanation for every issue raised in this thread.
 I think most of the watches sold by the Objects of Virtue eBay store are absolutely authentic.
 I have no reason to think the relationship between the eBay store and the Gallet company is being hidden or misrepresented in any way.
Regarding the last point, I don't wish to bring unwanted attention to these private individuals, but all of this is public and out in the open. The owner of the eBay store and Gallet's corporate representative are a married couple. Their public Facebook accounts are perfectly candid about their relationship, and they are completely upfront about it when they announce their eBay offerings on Facebook. To be *absolutely* clear, I'm not presenting this as any kind of exposé or as the result of any sleuthing-_all the information is right there for anyone to see_. I've seen no evidence that anyone has felt misled about this issue, although obviously some of us are disappointed to know of it.

These unused Flight Officer watches have a singular connection to the Gallet company and it would be enormously valuable to get the insight of someone in a position to tell more about it-or at least to tell the lucky buyer how these watches came into his or her possession.

At any rate, I think Gallet's representative deserves a chance to tell his side of the story; he is to all appearances a forthcoming and honorable man and none of us here, I venture, wish to talk behind his back. I intend to contact him directly via Facebook and very respectfully ask him to contribute to the discussion. I will report back what I learn, with his permission. If anyone has any suggestions for what questions to ask, please add them to this thread or PM me. Please also keep in mind that I have no real idea what I'm talking about, so I may pester you with questions about your suggestions.


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## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> The owner of the eBay store and Gallet's corporate representative are a married couple. Their public Facebook accounts are perfectly candid about their relationship, and they are completely upfront about it when they announce their eBay offerings on Facebook.


This is interesting - thank you for mentioning this. For someone who avoids Facebook, like me, this is not public knowledge; it's not disclosed in the eBay listing. Just to put this into context, can you imagine if this kind of thing were going on with Omega/Rolex watches, or any other luxury good, associated with an actual company with real management that enforces ethical behavior? Where the spouse of a company insider was selling supposedly special previously-unknown apparently-NOS items on the side? If you work for a mid-sized or large company/institution, you are required to take various types of training all the time so that you know to avoid situations like this.

In the process of googling, at one point I found a gofundme page, where someone (apparently associated with Gallet) was trying to raise funds to produce new Flying Officer watches that were basically re-editions of vintage watches. This suggests that: (1) they are eager for even small amounts of capital, and (2) they have the ability to make watch parts. You can see why there is good reason for skepticism.


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## mephisto

as i've mentioned before i don't know much about gallet and am approaching the concerns raised in this thread from purely a collector's perspective (with experience in rolex, tudor, heuer, breguet, glycine, etc). for me, the primary issue in this latest case is the claim that the watch listed is an example of military issued by swiss air force (NOS granted). to my knowledge, little to no scholarship exists with respect to gallet watches being issued to the swiss air force. this is in stark contrast with the abundance of information that is available for other examples of issued watches that have engravings... and further contrasted with issued watches carrying provenance that can be authenticated as such without having any engravings at all (ie canadian navy tudors sourced from retired clearance divers within a certain serial range, airain type 20 watches issued to ALAT units, yugoslav military heuer bundeswehrs, marine nationale doxas). scholarship exists for three-register breguet type xx's issued to helicopter units...of which 50 pieces were issued. for other collectable military watches, the presence of any configuration discrepancy is a big red flag. the white dial FO configuration along with the shoddy caseback engraving raises more questions that it answers. the part that rankles, in particular, is that the seller has access (albeit undisclosed) to the entirety of the manufacturer's archives so validating/clarifying the swiss air force relationship should be a non-starter. a prototype is one thing but representing it as having been an issued watch model at auction seems to me a different matter (speaking as a collector).

i will address the elephant in the room- sadly, we live in the times of watchco NOS omega 300s, very good vietnam fake components, high vintage prices, and rudy kurniawan. this watch might be a cherry 40+ year old NOS drawer find. on the other hand, it would be easy for someone with as much access as the seller has to assemble this piece out of parts and pass it off as a rare, seldom seen piece while conveniently being the authority for authenticating it. the perception of the latter is why i feel it would have been in the seller's best interest to unpack the history behind this piece, the company's relationship to the swiss air force and the configurations of FO that were supplied. this would serve to allay possible concerns that are keeping auction bids lower than what could be achieved in the former case.

as quote earlier:


> During the period that these watches were produced, the Swiss and Russian air forces were involved in a few joint exercises. By releasing a model utilizing a Russian Poljot movement, partially as a goodwill gesture, it was hoped that this would help to expand sales of Gallet's watches to the Russian market. You will notice that most examples with Poljot movements also have Swiss Air Force marking on the case back.


 still not completely clear what went on here....but a swiss watch company making a watch for the swiss air force with a poljot movement?



Krogerfoot said:


> These unused Flight Officer watches have a singular connection to the Gallet company and it would be enormously valuable to get the insight of someone in a position to tell more about it-or at least to tell the lucky buyer how these watches came into his or her possession. At any rate, I think Gallet's representative deserves a chance to tell his side of the story; he is to all appearances a forthcoming and honorable man and none of us here, I venture, wish to talk behind his back. I intend to contact him directly via Facebook and very respectfully ask him to contribute to the discussion. I will report back what I learn, with his permission. If anyone has any suggestions for what questions to ask, please add them to this thread or PM me. Please also keep in mind that I have no real idea what I'm talking about, so I may pester you with questions about your suggestions.


clarification to the concerns raised in this thread and over this auction would be most welcomed by all, thank you


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## watchywatch

Hi Guys, this is Mandy. It’s been awhile since I posted but feel the need to provide some perspective. 

It is my eBay auctions that a number of these posts are referring to. To provide a little background, I worked for Gallet for over 14 years doing numerous jobs, first for Mr. Gallet before he passed away in 2006, then for Mr. Walter Hediger, and now for my husband David. I worked as a secretary, kept records, tracked inventory, researched company history, cooked meals, cleaned up after meetings, and am now supervising the production of a book about Gallet. As someone who loves timepieces, I was very happy to be often gifted watches in lieu of payment. As a result, I ended up with more than I can wear for the rest of my life. After having photos taken of my personal collection for the upcoming book, I am using eBay to put a little extra cash in my pocket. I guess to some of you, there is apparently something inappropriate in doing that??? 

If you take a close look at my past auctions, you will see from my feedback rating that many of you that have benefited from my selling activities have nothing but the most positive things to say. It's truly disappointing to see all these negative words after I have worked so hard to always do the right thing and developed so many wonderful friendships within the fellow watch collecting community. Maybe I'm old school, but I feel that the best way to approach life is with integrity.


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## Dan S

Well, I appreciate the seller's willingness to contribute to this thread, but I'm still left with exactly the same concerns. She gave no response whatsoever to the substantive concerns about fake military markings, unsigned movements, etc. She verified the relationships that lead to an appearance of a conflict of interest (in fact, she suggests that she is currently a Gallet employee). And I felt she was trying a bit too hard with the "poor me, I'm just a person with integrity, who's a victim of negativity, trying to make a few extra bucks" routine. 

Honestly, at first I was inclined to believe the seller's story. But after the evidence presented in this thread, and after reading this empty response, I'm becoming more convinced that these watches are just put together for these sales, and I feel sorry for the people paying a lot of money for them.


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## Krogerfoot

watchywatch said:


> Hi Guys, this is Mandy. It's been awhile since I posted but feel the need to provide some perspective . . .


Thank you for replying. This thread is for discussing Gallet watches, of which all of us are great admirers. As there has been an explosion of counterfeit Gallets in recent years, buying vintage pieces has become extremely risky, and this forum is invaluable for us to compare notes with experts and fellow fans.

I don't think anyone has been overly critical or negative in their commentary toward you here. I do have questions about the Flying Officer model you are currently selling on eBay, and given your unique connection to the Gallet company, you are in an extraordinary position to contribute to the scholarship of this celebrated model.

I mean no disrespect, nor to interrogate you, but these are the things I would want to know before bidding on your watch. I was planning to ask Mr. Laurence the same questions on the Gallet World Facebook page so that other fans can learn from your answers and likely add far better questions than I can.

What is the significance of the spellings of SAN FRANCISKO and BAGDAG? When and why did Gallet begin spelling these city names like this?
Is there documentation of Gallet FOs from this time being provided to the Swiss air force? (Comments by Mr. Laurence on Facebook suggest the association with the Swiss air force was a retail marketing strategy.)
What is the significance of the "AS 7584" markings?
When and where was the cross added to the case back?
How exactly was the watch stored since 2005? What do you know about how it was taken care of previous to that?
When was the watch manufactured?
Was the movement manufactured by Gallet?

I also had questions about an earlier Flight Officer, which you offered on eBay in 2016.

Was the "Property U.S.A. Ord. Dept." text engraved by Gallet? When?
What documentation shows that this model was issued to service personnel?
When did you acquire the watch and how was it stored before its sale?

Let me add that I think you have every right to do what you wish with your extraordinary collection, but I hope you will address these questions at least.


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## DragonDan

It is good to hear from Amanda, she hasn't been on these pages for years. Personally, I don't find it hard to believe that someone who used to work for Gallet (as I understand it, she can best be categorized as a consultant, not an employee), has a number of watches right off the production line, gifted to her by the company. I seriously doubt that these pieces offered are parts watches. Amanda worked directly with Bernard Gallet. What she does with her own property doesn't really relate to what Gallet the company is doing.

What is interesting, is that through all this discussion is the question of the FO's city spelling. I've done some serious looking through my photo archives, and found some relevant information. The particular spelling of each city, I've no idea why it occurs that way. What I do know that the Venus 150 models all have Bahgdad spelt as BAGDAD. All subsequent models (Landeron 149) have the spelling of BAGDAG. My particular L149 Flight Officer is from 1967, so I believe this is one of the earliest Landeron-caliber FO's out there. Mine says BAGDAG. I purchased this watch almost ten years ago, from the family of the original owner. Nobody opened up this watch before I did.









Here's other examples, from the early 1970's

















The BAGDAD spelling, from 1939 to the mid 1950's.

















I really didn't think much of the variations in spelling, it's a mystery why that change occured.

On the Swiss Airforce with the Poljot movement, that is certainly a unique footnote of Gallet's history. I do know that the Poljot 3133 is not a direct replacement for the Landeron 149. I have one of these cases, found one about six years ago and asked my watchmaker Chronodeco to put it together for me. This case is damaged (bezel edge and back are gouged badly), so I intended as using it as a 'beater' watch for everyday wear. I sourced a Gallet marked L149, dial, the whole enchilada, but was shot down. If I remember, Craig said the position of the subdial posts are slightly different, and the location of the pushers were vertically different than the L149. 
So if a company is trying to swap to a less expensive caliber, wouldn't that be offset by the creation of a new dial and case to fit? 
Here's my case, next to the L149 dial.

















Note that the AS7584 marking and cross are pretty basic looking. The markings themselves was probably added by Swiss Gallet, not the Racine New York importers. Remember that not a lot of Gallet documentation survived the 1970's. When the New York location closed down, the future of the company was uncertain, so decades of paperwork were just thrown away. I do know David, the COO of Gallet, had many long discussions with Bernard Gallet before his passing. Learning all he could about the models and stories behind them.

~D


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## Krogerfoot

DragonDan said:


> . . . What is interesting, is that through all this discussion is the question of the FO's city spelling.


Thanks very much for this. Regarding the city name spellings, it looks like a case of Newton's first law. Something got decided (SAN FRANCISCO became SAN FRANCISKO early on, and now you've shown when BAGDAG emerged) at some point, and then things stayed that way.

Interesting also to see more examples of the back of "Swiss air force" FOs. At this point, I'd be more suspicious of a Swiss cross that didn't look like crap.


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## WatchFred

Krogerfoot said:


> Shane, I read your story as I was snooping around the Web yesterday, and I agree yours is sadder. I'm sorry you got cheated.
> 
> I was mostly commenting on how exasperated both sides seemed in the argument mephisto turned up. In the end, the assertion that the original poster was so annoyed by turned out to be true: There is no meaningful separation between the person who sold him his watch and the authority that guaranteed its authenticity.
> 
> Here is the watch in question:
> View attachment 13174557
> 
> 
> Although now that I've visited the Gallet World Facebook page that Dragon Dan has been beautifully curating for some years, it doesn't seem like anyone's making any real effort to hide the connection between the Objects of Virtue eBay seller and a corporate officer of Gallet. So I wonder if the seller of the 60s Multichron with the unusual hands was really indignant at being thought a dupe.


must have missed the discussion about that watch you show, can assure you that I've seen these hands on other R72 Gallet & happen to own one, did not buy that one from Mandy btw., although I've bought a sublimely beautiful gilt dial Clamshell from her some years ago.










as Djask has come up again, was intrigued by this too, as Daniel remembered; Djask (near Bandar Abbas in Iran) wasd an important refueling stop for most of the early flights to India, Indonesia, and on to Australia - KLM was still landing there on it's Batavia route in the 1960s, in 1926 it was the endpoint of the world's flight distance record btw, the flight started in Paris and ended in Djask.

this early 1930s map may help you a bit w/ the "Bagdad" spelling too:


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## Krogerfoot

WatchFred said:


> . . . as Djask has come up again, was intrigued by this too, as Daniel remembered; Djask (near Bandar Abbas in Iran) wasd an important refueling stop for most of the early flights to India, Indonesia, and on to Australia - KLM was still landing there on it's Batavia route in the 1960s, in 1926 it was the endpoint of the world's flight distance record btw, the flight started in Paris and ended in Djask.
> 
> this early 1930s map may help you a bit w/ the "Bagdad" spelling too:


Thanks for sharing that. My linguistic sleuthing was poorly done-I should have taken the clue from FIDJI and searched for "Jask" as an airport or waypoint. Sure enough, here it is on an Iranian en-route chart, right where you indicate, and where I should have been looking.









Still curious about BAGDAG and SAN FRANCISKO.


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## WatchFred

see the "Bagdad" spelling in my map posted above, puzzled about San FrancisKo too - but Breitling used "S. Frisco" on their worldtime watches in the early 1950s, a name nobody in the Bay Area would use


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## Krogerfoot

WatchFred said:


> see the "Bagdad" spelling in my map posted above, puzzled about San FrancisKo too - but Breitling used "S. Frisco" on their worldtime watches in the early 1950s, a name nobody in the Bay Area would use


"Bagdad" is the spelling of Baghdad in a number of languages, but I haven't been able to track down any language that spells it as "Bagdag" or uses a k for San Francisco in the Roman alphabet.


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## WatchFred

spelling evolved over time, you'd be surprised to see "Stamboul" for Istanbul today too. Bagdad was clearly used in the 1930s and 1940s,multiple examples on period maps.


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## Krogerfoot

With all due respect, there is no mystery about the "BAGDAD" spelling.















What I'm looking for is BAGDAG, with a final 'G' instead of the expected D.

I'm also wondering what languages are represented on the Flight Officer's dial. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the spellings do not seem to be consistent with any one language, making the dial a grab-bag of European languages.


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## WatchFred

sorry, was too stupid to read. yes, this IS strange


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## Krogerfoot

Not at all—I must have looked at it a hundred times before I noticed the aberrant spelling.


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## OhDark30

Krogerfoot said:


> What I'm looking for is BAGDAG, with a final 'G' instead of the expected D..
> 
> As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the spellings do not seem to be consistent with any one language, making the dial a grab-bag of European languages.


The first is a mystery, the second seems fairly common
I don't know if it was an attempt to broaden a watch's appeal/ audience, but I've owned a 70s Sicura and seen a 1971 Smiths Worldtimer which shared Island for Iceland, the Smiths also having Roma and Moskau, the rest of the placenames being in English


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## Krogerfoot

Objects of Virtue has a new item up on eBay.

My only problem is the description, which is the usual haphazardly copy-pasted ("Safely stored away for the over 70 years . . .") marketing spiel from previous auctions. The watch is beautiful, but what makes it a "WWII military timepiece"? Like the previous auction, the description raises more questions than it answers. How was it stored for 70 years? How long has the owner had it in her possession? Why sell it on eBay for decidedly less than the watch is seemingly worth, rather than an established auction house?

Are these observations uncharitable? The lack of information about the watch, given the seller's unique connection to the company, is confounding.


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## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> Objects of Virtue has a new item up on eBay.
> 
> My only problem is the description, which is the usual haphazardly copy-pasted ("Safely stored away for the over 70 years . . .") marketing spiel from previous auctions. The watch is beautiful, but what makes it a "WWII military timepiece"? Like the previous auction, the description raises more questions than it answers. How was it stored for 70 years? How long has the owner had it in her possession? Why sell it on eBay for decidedly less than the watch is seemingly worth, rather than an established auction house?
> 
> Are these observations uncharitable? The lack of information about the watch, given the seller's unique connection to the company, is confounding.


Well, in looking at this watch, which is not a military watch obviously, some of DragonDan's comments about a previously discussed watch previously come to mind:



DragonDan said:


> ... The serif style logo is proper for the time period, but no watch from the early 1940's looks that good. Why does it strike me that the case is a new manufacture? Or somebody really took time in polishing it up.


Of course, that watch was definitively a franken, but the dial and case looked pretty similar.


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## kazrich

Also, by giving an auction estimate in the ad, it's more likely to put potential buyers off than encourage them because they never make close to the estimate.


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## Tucayjordan

Krogerfoot said:


> Objects of Virtue has a new item up on eBay.
> 
> My only problem is the description, which is the usual haphazardly copy-pasted ("Safely stored away for the over 70 years . . .") marketing spiel from previous auctions. The watch is beautiful, but what makes it a "WWII military timepiece"? Like the previous auction, the description raises more questions than it answers. How was it stored for 70 years? How long has the owner had it in her possession? Why sell it on eBay for decidedly less than the watch is seemingly worth, rather than an established auction house?
> 
> Are these observations uncharitable? The lack of information about the watch, given the seller's unique connection to the company, is confounding.


As I mentioned before objects of virtue has sold very, very interesting Gallet pieces. Some were in 100% original conditions and some were not. I always check her auctions because some of them are true treasures.
But, due to the case serial number, I would say that this specific watch is post WW2. The bridge of the balance is not signed JRX and the other bridge has an strange Gallet engravement. To me the purpose of this thread is to try to discover accurately if a Gallet watch is or is not original (or if it has any minor or major issues...). Sometimes a piece with some issues can still be very interesting because some parts can be cannibalized to join the proper rest of original and coetaneus parts... to me this watch could be a good example...


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## Krogerfoot

Just as a follow-up: I asked my questions to the couple running the Objects of Virtue eBay store. I asked about the Flight Officer/Flying Officer models sold last month and in 2016 and later asked what "WWII military timepiece" meant in the context of the watch being offered currently. No answers, although Dragon Dan was kind enough to reply with a preview of his post on this thread.

I'm not interested in being confrontational, and I'm not a journalist, so this is as far as I'm probably going to take this line of inquiry. One the one hand, OoV has sold a number of well-regarded pieces. On the other, the claims made for other pieces don't stand up to scrutiny. The close connection to the Gallet company, perversely, makes me less inclined to give the benefit of the doubt.

The company's own official site is strangely noncommittal about documenting its most celebrated models. After reading that "it has long been rumored that Harry S Truman (US President from 1945 to 1953) played some undetermined role" in the development of the Flight Officer model, I feel like I know less than I did before. Much of the company's history seems to be hearsay. Either someone threw away a whole bunch of fascinating wartime letters from the office of then-Sen. Truman, or the entire episode isn't much more than a thirdhand account.

The "2nd Generation - Military issue" model shown on this page is surely the one sold on eBay in 2016 (for half of its purported value). "Ordnance Department" is misspelled, as it is on the "flight_officer_truman" page. This is an extremely easy mistake to make, sure, but it adds to an overall portrait of Gallet as a company that doesn't pay much attention to detail. Sadly, I'm less of a fan of the brand than I was a month ago.


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## kazrich

Well Krogerfoot I understand your concerns and the points that you raise are legitimate, but all of the watches that I've been collecting have similar unanswered questions regarding factual historical provenance.
Enicar went bust in 1988 and a Chinese gentleman bought the name and they continue to make watches. They don't even reply to questions regarding pre 1983 Enicar models. They probably don't know or care. But I still collect them
and the best resource of info is this website's Joy of Enicar thread.
The Heuer name was resurrected by Tag. I asked Tag for details of my 1971 Heuer Carrera chrono. They replied very quickly to inform me they had kept no records regarding Heuer watches pre Tag , but kindly directed me to a website that might be helpful ?
JeanRichard and Aquastar. Most of the history of these watches has been lost and accurate information regarding dates and models is practically non existent apart from guess work.
Gallet. I keep a Jim Clark Multichron 12 but getting information from Gallet was practically non existent until a member of this forum pulled a few strings. Even then I wasn't totally convinced by their reply.
The only maker that ever convinced me of their historical knowledge was Longines.
Watch collecting could prove tricky if you insisted on 100% water tight provenance on everything you buy. It's entirely possible that the owners of Objects of Virtue simply don't know the answers to all
of your questions. I suppose that the important question is whether they are attempting to deceive ? This, I would personally very much doubt and certainly wouldn't put me off bidding on their watches or from collecting the brand.


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## Krogerfoot

kazrich said:


> Well Krogerfoot I understand your concerns and the points that you raise are legitimate, but all of the watches that I've been collecting have similar unanswered questions regarding factual historical provenance.


These are all good points, and I appreciate the reply. I hasten to add that I'm not accusing anyone of deceit. I can imagine that the current guardians of the Gallet brand know they can never separate the truth from the tales they've been told by the previous generation and are trying their best to pass along the company's history as faithfully as they can.

However, "I don't know" is a legitimate answer to a question. I would have preferred to get that response over the admonition to respect the seller's eBay rating.


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## mephisto

Krogerfoot said:


> Just as a follow-up: I asked my questions to the couple running the Objects of Virtue eBay store. I asked about the Flight Officer/Flying Officer models sold last month and in 2016 and later asked what "WWII military timepiece" meant in the context of the watch being offered currently. No answers, although Dragon Dan was kind enough to reply with a preview of his post on this thread.
> 
> I'm not interested in being confrontational, and I'm not a journalist, so this is as far as I'm probably going to take this line of inquiry. One the one hand, OoV has sold a number of well-regarded pieces. On the other, the claims made for other pieces don't stand up to scrutiny. The close connection to the Gallet company, perversely, makes me less inclined to give the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> The company's own official site is strangely noncommittal about documenting its most celebrated models. After reading that "it has long been rumored that Harry S Truman (US President from 1945 to 1953) played some undetermined role" in the development of the Flight Officer model, I feel like I know less than I did before. Much of the company's history seems to be hearsay. Either someone threw away a whole bunch of fascinating wartime letters from the office of then-Sen. Truman, or the entire episode isn't much more than a thirdhand account.
> 
> The "2nd Generation - Military issue" model shown on this page is surely the one sold on eBay in 2016 (for half of its purported value). "Ordnance Department" is misspelled, as it is on the "flight_officer_truman" page. This is an extremely easy mistake to make, sure, but it adds to an overall portrait of Gallet as a company that doesn't pay much attention to detail. Sadly, I'm less of a fan of the brand than I was a month ago.


have to agree on all counts. not having information about, say, the swiss air force connection is fair...but then to imbue the auction of a NOS watch with that provenance just does not work for me especially given the seller's direct connection to the company, specific watch and history/archives thereof. the math on the circumstances surrounding these auctions does not add up for me and i've elected to avoid the brand as well. it will be interesting to see if the forthcoming book mentioned by mandy sheds more light on these models. i wonder if the auction results would be more favourable if these watches were posted after the book's release???

remember the #1 rule with vintage is to "buy the seller"


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## DragonDan

Here's one that just popped up. A fanciful imagination of what a Gallet watch should look like.

Really seems like a reprint to me









Does that caseback look like it came from a different watch? It doesn't line up









Actually, the movement looks correct for a Gallet. I wonder if just the caliber and caseback are original.


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## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> Here's one that just popped up. A fanciful imagination of what a Gallet watch should look like.


I had the exact same impression when I saw it. Legit movement, everything else "custom".


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## Dan S

I don't think this is a fake or a franken, but just wanted to get some other opinions. My feeling is that it is correct except that the minute hand is too long and the small hour-register sub-dial hand has been replaced. There are condition issues obviously, with rust on the hands and the case is beat up and polished.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gallet-Chr...525049?hash=item2cd62847b9:g:BEkAAOSwQUJbJsn6


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## DragonDan

I would say the hour recording subdial hand was replaced because it's base seems larger than the others. On the minute hand, it does look long, but I feel it's correct. Reference these three images. Some variations, indeed.


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## Dan S

Thanks, I was on the fence about the minute hand. It is definitely too long, but the style is right and the lume matches. The case has lived a bit of a hard life, but the dial is nice, and it could be worth having at the right price.


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## kazrich

I always assume that watch hands are correct unless very obviously wrong. They say that the camera never lies - Oh yes it does !
It's all to do with light, angles and the shape of crystals. Sub dial hands can look black from some angles and silver from others. They can also appear slimmer or thicker from different angles.

My own Multichron 12 was apparently serviced by Gallet by the previous owner. They told him rather than change the oxidised hands, and to keep them original, they would rather treat them
chemically to prevent further deterioration - after 5 years , so far so good. I would assume they recognised the factory original hands as being correct ?
When viewed on the wrist, the tip of the minute hand appears to just touch the telemeter marker ring.










This seems to suggest that the ebay hand is a tad long.
However, here's my watch from another angle - the tip appears to creep past the telemeter ring.










If we observe the 5th image of the ebay watch the minute hand seems to have shrunk back slightly and is similar to mine.










Again, the ebay watch hours register hand looks too thick from some angles but thinner from other angles ? 
Curvature towards the edge of the crystal, focal length of the camera lens and lighting can distort considerably - I think it's OK.


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## Dan S

kazrich said:


> Again, the ebay watch hours register hand looks too thick from some angles but thinner from other angles ?
> Curvature towards the edge of the crystal, focal length of the camera lens and lighting can distort considerably - I think it's OK.


The "base" of the hour recording subdial hand has a larger diameter than the other two small hands. That was the giveaway for me to recognize it was replaced. I agree that the minute hand is original, just a bit long.


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## Tucayjordan

I do not use the enumeration of generations as nomenclature because it can easily lead me to confussion. This Gallet Flight Officer with case serial number 144754 and with "straight" lugs I would say that dates from the late 1940´s or from the very early 1950´s.

The bezels of the Gallet Flight Officer chronographs seem that were a part of the watch that used to be replaced *very often* because they were easily lost. As far as I know, there were only 2 types of bezels assembled in the Gallet Flight Officer chronographs with brevet 189190 cases (34,40mm "Clamshell"): the first type are from 1939 to 1943,4 (I have only seen with black dials) and the second type are from 1944,5 to 1950´s.

*This rotating bezel does not seem to be coetaneous *with the rest of the case (and hands, and dial) of this Gallet Flight Officer and in my opinion it is *not original*.

It seems to be an imitation, putting together the shape of the numbers of the first type and the half batons in between of the second type of bezel...

The earliest Gallet Flight Officer chronographs are very rare and only a few of them still keep their original bezels (first type). Currently most of the earliest examples seen in the internet are assembling bezels of the second type (100% Gallet but not coetaneous).























This last picture shows a proper, original, coetaneous Gallet Flight Officer bezel "first type":


----------



## WatchFred

well, so many (most?) of my hour recorder hands are replacements, as they have a slightly larger center diameter than the other subdial hands?
would be surprised 










here's a closer look, this watch was a "fondo magazzino", seemingly unworn when I bought it, with the caseback still covered by what looked to be the original protection sticker










same for the minute hand discussed above - JB04/40 hands are incompatible w/ all the other chronograph calibers, I've yet to find compatible aftermarket replacements (and I did search quite a bit), so there's little doubt for me the hand discussed above is original.

we tend to think about these components as "standardized mass production", similar to a Foxconn-manufactured SKU for the latest iphone, but actually we are talking about parts assembled over decades, bought from multiple vendors, in countless batches, often with slight variations.


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## Dan S

WatchFred said:


> well, so many (most?) of my hour recorder hands are replacements, as they have a slightly larger center diameter than the other subdial hands?
> would be surprised
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here's a closer look, this watch was a "fondo magazzino", seemingly unworn when I bought it, with the caseback still covered by what looked to be the original protection sticker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> same for the minute hand discussed above - JB04/40 hands are incompatible w/ all the other chronograph calibers, I've yet to find compatible aftermarket replacements (and I did search quite a bit), so there's little doubt for me the hand discussed above is original.
> 
> we tend to think about these components as "standardized mass production", similar to a Foxconn-manufactured SKU for the latest iphone, but actually we are talking about parts assembled over decades, bought from multiple vendors, in countless batches, often with slight variations.


Well, I admit I'm surprised about the different hour recorder hand, but no question that photo is very convincing. And very humbling as usual to see the incredible quality of the watches in your collection. Beautiful!


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## WatchFred

thank you, Dan!

here's a closer look at the "torch dial" Gallet JB40:










and it seems independent of the production period, as we see the same different center diameters on the much later EP that was marketed as a Gallet Olimpico:


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## kazrich

Agreed 100 % with WatchFred. These details are difficult to see with the naked eye, even when wearing reading or strong glasses. When viewed from above and enlarged
on a monitor it's easy to measure the diameters with a sheet of white paper and a pen or sharpie - The 6.00 O clock hour register hand is always slightly larger at the base.
I'm almost certain that the ebay watch minute hand and 12 hour register hand are original.


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## kye_lin

I have a Flying Officer with the Swiss markings. It has the Poljot 3133 movement. BAGDAG on dial.
I cannot post links or images as my post count is low.


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## WatchFred

kye_lin said:


> I have a Flying Officer with the Swiss markings. It has the Poljot 3133 movement. BAGDAG on dial.
> I cannot post links or images as my post count is low.


send them to me by pm; will post


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## kye_lin

WatchFred said:


> send them to me by pm; will post


Just PMed you... thanks.
Kai


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## WatchFred

kye_lin said:


> I have a Flying Officer with the Swiss markings. It has the Poljot 3133 movement. BAGDAG on dial.
> I cannot post links or images as my post count is low.


here are Kai's pics:


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## DragonDan

Thanks for posting those WF!
Note that this is the later bezel, with the printed on numerals. It also has the snap-back that is so notoriously hard to remove/ reinstall without damage. Okay, it's easy if you have that expensive Bergeron tool, but mine's in the shop 

I was chatting with a fellow from facebook, he asked about his AS7584 Flight Officer. His has the older engraved bezel, and curiously, a screw back with the Swiss markings. I've not seen that before. 
This also shows the Bagdag spelling




























He hasn't yet responded to my question about how he acquired it, or how long he's had it. I'll edit this post with any pertinent info. 
I do know that Gallet has been researching this model, and promises to present a good amount of info in their upcoming book. 
~D


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## kye_lin

DragonDan said:


> Thanks for posting those WF!
> Note that this is the later bezel, with the printed on numerals. It also has the snap-back that is so notoriously hard to remove/ reinstall without damage. Okay, it's easy if you have that expensive Bergeron tool, but mine's in the shop
> 
> I was chatting with a fellow from facebook, he asked about his AS7584 Flight Officer. His has the older engraved bezel, and curiously, a screw back with the Swiss markings. I've not seen that before.
> This also shows the Bagdag spelling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He hasn't yet responded to my question about how he acquired it, or how long he's had it. I'll edit this post with any pertinent info.
> I do know that Gallet has been researching this model, and promises to present a good amount of info in their upcoming book.
> ~D


Are the hands original? Never seen hands like these on Flying Officers. I wonder what movement it has? Venus? Landeron? Thanks for the post.


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## DragonDan

HI KL, yes I believe this is all original, right from the factory. 
I know I posted this in a "franken" thread, but we've been talking about this oddball piece as well as creative spelling on World Timer Gallet watches. I felt it was relevant to post here.

This should have the Poljot 3133 caliber. Even with the best of intentions, this wasn't one of Gallet's sharpest marketing decisions. Every watch company has made curious decisions in their history.



kye_lin said:


> Are the hands original? Never seen hands like these on Flying Officers. I wonder what movement it has? Venus? Landeron? Thanks for the post.


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## DragonDan

I have no words. A turkey, indeed, from ebay.
Strangely, I bet that dial is original. Everything else was pulled from the bottom of a bucket.


----------



## Krogerfoot

WatchFred said:


>


The mystery of the clumsily engraved Swiss cross deepens. No two of these look the same, even though they all have the same number stamped on the caseback.


----------



## Krogerfoot

Here's a very rough superimposition of photos of the various Flight Officer/Flying Officer "AS 7584" casebacks with Swiss crosses. There's probably a better way to illustrate this, but you can see how closely the text lines up, while the crosses are all over the place. Some of the distortion comes from my manipulation of the images to get them to line up, but it's obvious at a glance that the crosses are very crude and seemingly done by hand. It seems like a lot of trouble to go to for not a very good result.


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## pantelis25

Well that cross issue is really strange. Unless this was done by hand there is no way to turn out so sloppy.


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## DragonDan

I agree it's strangely done. But why would a manufacturer make a number/ letter stamp, and want the cross hand-engraved? That doesn't make any sense. I don't have an answer, to me a metal stamp is by its nature very consistent.


----------



## Krogerfoot

DragonDan said:


> I agree it's strangely done. But why would a manufacturer make a number/ letter stamp, and want the cross hand-engraved? That doesn't make any sense. I don't have an answer, to me a metal stamp is by its nature very consistent.


Not to put too fine a point on it, the crosses look bad and detract from the appeal of the watch. Eye of the beholder and all that, but I'd have to question the aesthetic judgment of anyone who disagrees.

"Doesn't make any sense" is how I feel about the rationale for using Russian movements in the "Swiss Air Force" Flight Officer models. It's another example of the explanation leaving you feeling like you know less than you did before hearing it. How in the world would it promote the Gallet brand or the FO model to use Russian movements with no visible external indication? It's tough to imagine what market such a move is intended to appeal to. It's kind of like if Mercedes had modified some number of its high-end cars in the seventies to run with Russian Lada engines (especially if the owner needed a special tool to open the hood).


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## Krogerfoot

I have a feeling a very well preserved 1940s Multi-Chron will soon appear for sale on eBay. I further predict it will be described as safely stored away for most of its 70-plus years, listed as a "military timepiece," and ultimately will be sold for about a third of its supposed value.


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## Tucayjordan

Well, things are getting worse...

Same aforementioned seller is currently selling this one:

















It is the perfect definition of a franken: non original Gallet parts plus non coetaneous Gallet parts...
-Dial seems to be from WWII era (prior to 1944).
-The hands are original except the sweep second hand which is not Gallet at all.
-The upper part of the caseback could be Gallet or not, but if it were Gallet it would be post WWII (I would say 1949-1950).
-The lower part of the caseback is not signed Gallet in the inner side and it is almost impossible to see the case serial number in the outer side. I would say that it is not Gallet at all.
-The movement is signed Gallet and it seems to be correct.
-The description of this Gallet in the auction text... is the usual inaccurate copy paste... which at this point seems to be at least a little disrespectful to the Gallet aficionados and due to its provenance also to the own Gallet brand...
It is sad to see this auction.


----------



## WatchFred

thank you for that in-depth report, Pedro @tucayjordan - sweep was evident, but a closer look shows that the caseback really is highly questionable - but if you didn't think it could get any worse: it can.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GA...m=232823540596&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

dial and main hands off a MC Pilot, subdial hands off whatever, massive doubts.

here's the Pilot:










would be interesting to hear from Amanda and have some provenance for this "MC12 Auto Racing & Pilots Chronograph" ....


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## Tucayjordan

Hello Fred, I have been looking for this specific Gallet in vintage catalogs and I have found examples from 1969 to 1980. In some of those catalogs the sweep seconds hand is orange like the one of the auction that you indicates (but they have the newer big G logo in the dial). I have not found *yet* any with orange hands in the 3 subdials...

P.S. I need to correct myself, I blend together: the examples that I have found they all have a different type of case with a rotating bezel... so, yes, this one seems that could also be a franken Gallet...


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## Krogerfoot

It seems there's always an explanation for any oddity.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/GalletChronographs/permalink/2224296350930183/

Situations like this are why the vacuous marketing blather is so frustrating. If these watches have a story behind them, it's just strange not to tell it.


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## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> It seems there's always an explanation for any oddity.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/GalletChronographs/permalink/2224296350930183/
> 
> Situations like this are why the vacuous marketing blather is so frustrating. If these watches have a story behind them, it's just strange not to tell it.


I wonder if the people who buy these watches are thinking about how ridiculous it will sound when they try to sell the watch down the line: "The person from whom I bought the watch said that she knew the president of the company, and she said that he said that this was a rare variation ..."


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## laikrodukas

they are not thinking  no thinking ability as such


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## Tucayjordan

Here is a link to the auction of an identical Aerographic watch with the movement signed Gallet:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RaRe-AEROG...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

At the same time that this auction was taking place, on 21st and 22nd of May 2018, some information was uploaded in the Gallet World Facebook about this Aerographic and its Gallet twin...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/GalletChronographs/permalink/2171874552839030/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/GalletChronographs/permalink/2172803236079495/

... so it seems that I was wrong and this one may be an original Gallet...


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## Krogerfoot

Not a questionable watch per se, but this photo in a post about a Multichron 30M with a military provenance raised my eyebrows.









Well, the first eyebrow-raiser was the mention of waiting eleven months for Gallet to service the watch. The watch is certainly beautiful, and unlike other watches we've (virtually) examined, the markings and aging look right appropriate for a 1940s-era piece. The other artifacts the poster won at auction are fascinating, but the label reading "Official U.S. Government Use Only," seemingly printed on a modern printer, on a modern-looking plastic bag, with a font that was invented in the 1950s is hard to make sense of. I contacted the owner to ask whether the bag was one of the items he got in the auction or if Gallet sent it to him after servicing the watch, but haven't gotten a reply.

The follow-up post from the owner provides some interesting insight about Gallet's US operation and the restoration work it claims to be able to carry out.


----------



## Tucayjordan

Tucayjordan said:


> Well, things are getting worse...
> 
> Same aforementioned seller is currently selling this one:
> 
> View attachment 13257275
> 
> 
> View attachment 13257277
> 
> 
> It is the perfect definition of a franken: non original Gallet parts plus non coetaneous Gallet parts...
> -Dial seems to be from WWII era (prior to 1944).
> -The hands are original except the sweep second hand which is not Gallet at all.
> -The upper part of the caseback could be Gallet or not, but if it were Gallet it would be post WWII (I would say 1949-1950).
> -The lower part of the caseback is not signed Gallet in the inner side and it is almost impossible to see the case serial number in the outer side. I would say that it is not Gallet at all.
> -The movement is signed Gallet and it seems to be correct.
> -The description of this Gallet in the auction text... is the usual inaccurate copy paste... which at this point seems to be at least a little disrespectful to the Gallet aficionados and due to its provenance also to the own Gallet brand...
> It is sad to see this auction.


Can anyone see a case serial number here? Is it blurred intentionally or by chance?









To me this one is a dishonorable franken Gallet. A shame!


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## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> the label reading "Official U.S. Government Use Only," seemingly printed on a modern printer, on a modern-looking plastic bag, with a font that was invented in the 1950s is hard to make sense of. I contacted the owner to ask whether the bag was one of the items he got in the auction or if Gallet sent it to him after servicing the watch, but haven't gotten a reply.


When Gallet services a watch, they return it with a nylon strap that is packaged with that label.


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## Krogerfoot

badbackdan said:


> When Gallet services a watch, they return it with a nylon strap that is packaged with that label.


Thanks. That means either the bags and straps are surplus from Gallet's contract with the military, or they're just a decorative touch.


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## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> Thanks. That means either the bags and straps are surplus from Gallet's contract with the military, or they're just a decorative touch.


I think it's just a decorative touch. Everything is totally generic, and the label is taped onto a small zip-lock. It's odd that they make it seem like an official US military thing. Gallet seems to be obsessed with claiming military connections. But I guess if it was really for US Government Use only, they couldn't just ship it out with every order. ;-)

The strap they sent me is this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/19mm-Force...430572?hash=item27d9a89cac:g:2zMAAOxydINSZpv4


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## WatchFred

yep, got the same rather pathetic "official government use" with a mediocre Nato strap on a watch serviced by Gallet...

have less issue with that than the fact I'm still looking for any pictorial proof that Jim Clark ever actually wore one of the Gallet Multichron, as dozens of pictures show him wearing various Enicar SherpaGraph until ca. 1966 and a Breitling Navitimer in 1967/68....

and any question regarding that request is deleted from the facebook page


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## Krogerfoot

badbackdan said:


> I think it's just a decorative touch. Everything is totally generic, and the label is taped onto a small zip-lock. It's odd that they make it seem like an official US military thing. Gallet seems to be obsessed with claiming military connections. But I guess if it was really for US Government Use only, they couldn't just ship it out with every order. ;-)


Hmm, the eBay auction that WatchFred flagged earlier is "accompanied by the original military issue cloth strap." This is one of the throwaway phrases in these descriptions that can't possibly mean what it seems to say. In a business where authenticity and documentation are so central, this collector's tendency to lard up the sales pitch with false and meaningless asides is simply confounding. I get that writing clearly and accurately is hard, but I find it difficult to be charitable with people who require so much benefit of the doubt.


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## Krogerfoot

WatchFred said:


> and any question regarding that request is deleted from the facebook page


!!


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## Dan S

WatchFred said:


> yep, got the same rather pathetic "official government use" with a mediocre Nato strap on a watch serviced by Gallet...
> 
> have less issue with that than the fact I'm still looking for any pictorial proof that Jim Clark ever actually wore one of the Gallet Multichron, as dozens of pictures show him wearing various Enicar SherpaGraph until ca. 1966 and a Breitling Navitimer in 1967/68....
> 
> and any question regarding that request is deleted from the facebook page





Krogerfoot said:


> Hmm, the eBay auction that WatchFred flagged earlier is "accompanied by the original military issue cloth strap." This is one of the throwaway phrases in these descriptions that can't possibly mean what it seems to say. In a business where authenticity and documentation are so central, this collector's tendency to lard up the sales pitch with false and meaningless asides is simply confounding. I get that writing clearly and accurately is hard, but I find it difficult to be charitable with people who require so much benefit of the doubt.


I'm still [barely] able to separate my affection for vintage Gallet watches and my distaste for the practices of the current Gallet company and the people associated with it, but it is becoming more difficult.


----------



## Krogerfoot

I sometimes wonder if Gallet USA is keeping their distance from questions like these because they're saving the answers for the book we keep hearing about. Then I think, how much credibility can this book really have? Hearsay doesn't become more likely to be true when it's written in a book rather than put up on a webpage.

To state it plainly, if documentation existed for the claims we have seen made by Gallet USA, it would have been produced before and not after putting the watches up for auction. Any of the documentation that has been discussed in this thread would enhance the demand for, and value of, the watches. One doesn't need to be a watch expert-as I am surely not-to see that it defies logic to part with items that one knows will soon increase in worth, especially while relentlessly cheerleading their wonderful investment values.

I suppose it's possible that we're seeing a gift of the Magi situation playing out, where someone is forced to sell her priceless collection to fund the publication of a book that will prove how valuable those watches are. This scenario candidly makes no sense at all.


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## mephisto

another auction.

(and, what is for me, yet more unsatisfying language in the description that is curiously vague given the source of the watch)

GLWS


> Apparently stored away and handled with care for most of its 50 plus years, the case shows only minor signs of use.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/232842379739


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## Krogerfoot

mephisto said:


> another auction.
> 
> (and, what is for me, yet more unsatisfying language in the description that is curiously vague given the source of the watch)
> 
> But "nearly prefect 100% original condition" regarding the dial (face)-you can hardly get more specific than that.


----------



## DragonDan

Here's another cobbled-together timepiece. Too bad, because this is a good-looking watch, overall.

Dial, repaint. You can see the left over 3rd subdial that they didn't fully remove from the silicone print pad. That crown, sheesh!









I'm not exactly sure what caliber this is, but it is similar to a Venus 188. Don't all Vintage Venus calibers have 9 posts on the column wheel? Either way, the chrono bridge looked shaved and new lettering added. 
The case looks like chromed brass to me. I can't think of a vintage (pre 1950) Gallet model that used a chromed case.









There are serial numbers both on the inside and outside caseback, and are different. This Gallet & Co. looks better than most, but the vast majority of the legitimate ones have a small O in Co., and the SWISS is smaller in relation.









I'd immediately swap out those oddball hands, but overall I'd bet this would be a good runner. It's no Gallet, though.


----------



## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> I'm not exactly sure what caliber this is, but it is similar to a Venus 188.


Looks like a Venus 170. A Venus 188 is actually cam-switched, the predecessor to the Valjoux 7730.


----------



## Krogerfoot

At the Gallet World Facebook page, the left hand reports that the right hand has put another piece on sale.









The watch was "owned by an esteemed member of the Flying 99's organization whose identity will be revealed to the auction winner," a typically inexplicable move by the seller that forces the reader to wonder which parts of the description are accurate and which are copy-paste debris. If the watch belonged to a member of the pioneering female pilots' association, what to make of the fact that it has also been "stored away for much of its 50+ years"? It reminds me of the marketing patter for vintage guitars that were once owned by a famous musician, who apparently loved the instruments so much that they were never taken out of the case.

Anyway, nothing nefarious about this sale that I can see, only the eccentricity of selling a purportedly valuable item this way.


----------



## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> At the Gallet World Facebook page, the left hand reports that the right hand has put another piece on sale.
> 
> View attachment 13338753
> 
> 
> The watch was "owned by an esteemed member of the Flying 99's organization whose identity will be revealed to the auction winner," a typically inexplicable move by the seller that forces the reader to wonder which parts of the description are accurate and which are copy-paste debris. If the watch belonged to a member of the pioneering female pilots' association, what to make of the fact that it has also been "stored away for much of its 50+ years"? It reminds me of the marketing patter for vintage guitars that were once owned by a famous musician, who apparently loved the instruments so much that they were never taken out of the case.
> 
> Anyway, nothing nefarious about this sale that I can see, only the eccentricity of selling a purportedly valuable item this way.


This 26mm watch is estimated to sell at "$7000 to $8000 or more". I guess we will see...


----------



## Dan S

I really didn't look closely at first, but the dial on this watch has serious issues. In addition to the damage to the outer track between 40 and 45, something very strange is going on with the "4" and "10" hour numerals (and probably the "8" as well) and the way they intrude into the sub-dials. Maybe just a sign of low quality at the factory?

View attachment 13340467

View attachment 13340469


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## Dan S

The hands are obviously wrong, and the quality of the dial looks terrible, but it almost matches a later example of the MultiChron Pilot from the galletworld website.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-ga...50+-7730+-7733+-7734+-7736&_sacat=31387&rt=nc


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## DragonDan

You know, I think the case/ dial/ movement/ caseback are factory, but that dial has definitely been worked over. The color of the hands matches the chapter ring on the dial. An neither match the subdials, which look original to me.

I've only seen one example of the Gallet & Co. 'upside down' on the chrono bridge. The rest look like you'd expect


----------



## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> You know, I think the case/ dial/ movement/ caseback are factory, but that dial has definitely been worked over. The color of the hands matches the chapter ring on the dial. An neither match the subdials, which look original to me.


I was basing my speculation about the hands on the fact that the minute hand seems far too long, and the "T SWISS T" on the dial, without lume on the hands (the dial is also missing lume in the appropriate "circles").


----------



## DragonDan

This is my Gallet MultiChron pilot. Valjoux 7736 caliber. The dial is definitely factory. It's similar to the ebay one, but note how even the dial paint is. My dial is missing those lume circles, so even within a particular model, there were variations on design.


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## Dan S

badbackdan said:


> This 26mm watch is estimated to sell at "$7000 to $8000 or more". I guess we will see...


Well, the auction is over and the $2,280 selling price is quite a bit shy of $7000, but still a lot of money for this tiny chronograph with a flawed and damaged dial.


----------



## kazrich

Hi guys , not entirely sure if this is the best thread for this interesting Gallet piece that I recently read on t'web.
Opinions ?
Is it correct or fake news ? ?
Rolex fanboys please don't shoot the messenger ,this is not my personal opinion I've just copied and posted it here.


' Rolex did Not only use Valjoux.
The wrongly called “Rolex 2722” used a Venus 140 supplied via the Only company in the world with legal rights to the movement , Gallet …… the world’s oldest clock/watch Co.
They , Gallet , infact handed the FINISHED product/s to Rolex & Rolex had Zero to do with making the watch , Absolutely Zero!!
Y do some clowns pay over a 1/4 of a million $ for …… a watch that you can buy for $4,000 …. read the definition of stupidity & you will see Y.

The “Rolex 2727” / Venus 140 ~ did NOT touch Rolex’es hands during Any process of the watches manufacturing ,, the Only thing they did do , to any aspect of regulator chrono with the V140 fitted , was sell the finished product.
NO more than a retailers or at best , semi wholesalers on this occasion.
Sorry Rolex buffs , But the Truth does actually matter. {to some...

BUT STILL some Fools still pay the same for the GALLET MADE ROLEX 2727 that is more than enough to buy a 3bedrm house in my state of residence for.
AND the ONLY Rolex aspect of the watch , is their name on the dial & movement that they paid GALLET to put on the model for them , so 70 yr’s later , some people with FAR more money than brains….. pay for Gallets , marked Rolex ….. and pay just a little bit more for the “privilege” of owning a “rare Galllet , oop’s Rolex …. and the price difference of over au$260,000.00 !

Who said Many {not all.. Rolex collectors were breed from bogan moths , simply attracted to the bight lights & pay a BIG price for such?
I think I did, '


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## Krogerfoot

From the Gallet World Facebook page, another example of a beautiful Flight Officer with an impaired Swiss cross scratched onto the back.









There are quite a few Gallet offerings up on eBay these days. I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks of them.


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## Hartmut Richter

That echoes my sentiments about practically all Rolex chronographs that sell for insane sums of cash beyond the half million mark (including the one from Paul Newman that went for ca. 17 million US$). Why pay so much when you can have the same watch (i.e. movement) in a different looking case for a few thousand at the most from Certina, Nivada, Enicar.....?!!

Hartmut Richter


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## Steiger

Does anyone know if Gallet signed all their Venus 170 calibres they had in their multichrons? I have the opportunity to buy one. Seller is adamant that it was customary not to sign the calibres in the 40’s. However, any other Gallet with the same calibre I could find online was indeed signed. I attached a picture of the calibre.


----------



## Dan S

Steiger said:


> Does anyone know if Gallet signed all their Venus 170 calibres they had in their multichrons? I have the opportunity to buy one. Seller is adamant that it was customary not to sign the calibres in the 40's. However, any other Gallet with the same calibre I could find online was indeed signed. I attached a picture of the calibre.


Please post more photos of the watch, not just the movement.


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## Steiger

badbackdan said:


> Steiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if Gallet signed all their Venus 170 calibres they had in their multichrons? I have the opportunity to buy one. Seller is adamant that it was customary not to sign the calibres in the 40's. However, any other Gallet with the same calibre I could find online was indeed signed. I attached a picture of the calibre.
> 
> 
> 
> Please post more photos of the watch, not just the movement.
Click to expand...

I added a few more photos. Don't have any more of the calibre itself. Thanks for your help!


----------



## Tucayjordan

*Re: Gallet & Co. crosscheck of possible fakes/ frankens*

@Steiger, I cannot provide a categorical answer about if the Gallet with Venus 170 movements should always be signed or not ("Gallet" and "JXR"). Obviously I would prefer a piece fully signed. But (all?) other Gallet chronographs from the 40´s and 50´s (with Venus 140 and 150, Excelsior Park 42, 4 and 40, Valjoux 69, 72and 72-C...) had always movements properly signed (with "Gallet" and "JXR")...

Two new entries:

This one seems to be an original Gallet with Valjoux 69... except for the caseback that is not Gallet at all...























And this one is a genuine franken Gallet: the whole movement is a Thisy which was one of the many brands that assembled Excelsior Park calibers. Same movements than Gallet but they are not well known therefore much cheaper than Gallet... and someone just need to change the dial to get a big profit... On January 2015, in the thread of DragonDan, entry #4... https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/gallet-excelsior-park-serial-numbers-1486034.html


----------



## DragonDan

I just saw that Thisty pop up on the 'bay. a NOS dial, which does look fantastic. 

On that Venus 170 regulator: dial is wrong. pushers are wrong. crown is wrong. The caliber looks pretty beat up, on top of it all. Some parts are Gallet, but maybe only the case and caseback?


----------



## Krogerfoot

For Gallet collectors, your monthly chance to buy a "$7,000 to $8,000 or more" watch for significantly less than that is once again available on eBay, as a former/current Gallet employee continues disposing of her collection. The watch is lovely, the description is ridden with the same tropes and typos as the last dozen postings. Since the company says it is working on a book that will feature this collection (including this watch? Maybe), this is a logic-defying opportunity for the brave watch fan.















As ever, I don't see anything wrong or dishonest with the watch or in doing whatever one wants with one's fairly gotten private property. I just continue to be perplexed by this behavior, and I would be open to any explanation for it that I seem to be missing. Does inflating the value of vintage Gallet pieces and cheerleading their incredible worth as investments help the brand in some way, perhaps by goosing interest in Gallet's modern offerings?


----------



## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> For Gallet collectors, your monthly chance to buy a "$7,000 to $8,000 or more" watch for significantly less than that is once again available on eBay, as a former/current Gallet employee continues disposing of her collection. The watch is lovely, the description is ridden with the same tropes and typos as the last dozen postings. Since the company says it is working on a book that will feature this collection (including this watch? Maybe), this is a logic-defying opportunity for the brave watch fan.
> 
> ...
> 
> As ever, I don't see anything wrong or dishonest with the watch or in doing whatever one wants with one's fairly gotten private property. I just continue to be perplexed by this behavior, and I would be open to any explanation for it that I seem to be missing. Does inflating the value of vintage Gallet pieces and cheerleading their incredible worth as investments help the brand in some way, perhaps by goosing interest in Gallet's modern offerings?


The price estimates are totally disingenuous. Despite the excellent condition, these later examples are significantly less desirable in my opinion. Obviously the V7733 movement is not as desirable to collectors as the V72 or EP. And also, it seems to me that the dials are not as well-made; certainly the GALLET logo is not as finely drawn compared to earlier examples.


----------



## Krogerfoot

badbackdan said:


> The price estimates are totally disingenuous.


In a sense, the seller's carelessness with the descriptions serves to insulate her against charges of disingenuousness. With almost no exceptions, all of her auctioned pieces carry the same copy-pasted "$7,000 to $8,000" valuation, sometimes with "or more" appended. See, she's not trying to fool anyone-she's hardly even trying to make sense at all.

My question is, why do this? I mean, I get why *I* would inflate the value of an item I hope to sell, but I don't understand why the Gallet company would consistently tout the worth and investment value of their vintage pieces while at the same time very publicly divesting themselves of said pieces at significantly lower prices.


----------



## Buddman

*Re: Gallet & Co. crosscheck of possible fakes/ frankens*

While generally I adore Gallet design, this one is really poor in my opinion. The subdials are far too small, text is tiny, and the overall proportions are poor. Not a winner in my books.

- - - Updated - - -

While generally I adore Gallet design, this one is really poor in my opinion. The subdials are far too small, text is tiny, and the overall proportions are poor. Not a winner in my books.


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## pantelis25

*Re: Gallet & Co. crosscheck of possible fakes/ frankens*

God what's this? !!!!!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GALLET-Vin...251821?hash=item41eafbe86d:g:VP4AAOSwelZbewiX


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## DragonDan

Well, the case and caliber are fine. Somebody please buy this and give it a proper face and hands! It's hurting my eyes!

*edit, hosting the photos*


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## WatchFred

same old story, Dan; dials can be found, but hands???


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## pantelis25

WatchFred said:


> same old story, Dan; dials can be found, but hands???


Hands only from donor watches if we are lucky to buy cheap:-(


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## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> In a sense, the seller's carelessness with the descriptions serves to insulate her against charges of disingenuousness. With almost no exceptions, all of her auctioned pieces carry the same copy-pasted "$7,000 to $8,000" valuation, sometimes with "or more" appended. See, she's not trying to fool anyone-she's hardly even trying to make sense at all.
> 
> My question is, why do this? I mean, I get why *I* would inflate the value of an item I hope to sell, but I don't understand why the Gallet company would consistently tout the worth and investment value of their vintage pieces while at the same time very publicly divesting themselves of said pieces at significantly lower prices.


This piece ended up selling for $3,655, which is half of the minimum price projected by the seller, but even so it's a very high price for this less-desirable version of the MultiChron Pilot. Obviously the fact that bidders' identities are hidden can potentially hide some fishy behavior, but still there are apparently some foolish buyers that are really drinking the Kool-Aid. So perhaps the cynical strategy is working.


----------



## Krogerfoot

*Gallet & Co. crosscheck of possible fakes/ frankens*

As a strategy to put money in the sellers' pockets, the overvaluation of vintage Gallet watches makes perfect sense. I don't see how it helps the currently existing company, and I continue to be puzzled at the rationale behind liquidating a collection of Gallet watches ahead of the anticipated publication of the official Gallet book.

I've talked to the WUS member (https://www.watchuseek.com/f7/gallet-flight-officer-watch-tuskegee-738222.html) whose grandfather bequeathed to him one of (the only surviving examples of?) the famed Tuskegee Airmen FO watches. I was surprised to hear that no one from Gallet has reached out to him about his still-running watch, much less asked to examine or photograph it. He's posted lovely videos of the watch in natural light that make it easier to see the dial, which has darkened over the years to the point that it's very hard to make out details in still pictures. The lack of interest from Gallet in studying this very amiable gentleman's watch-which they know about and have stated to be authentic-contrasts strongly with the energy they put into flogging the pieces in the Objects of Virtue inventory.


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## 707mm2

DragonDan said:


> Well, the case and caliber are fine. Somebody please buy this and give it a proper face and hands! It's hurting my eyes!
> 
> *edit, hosting the photos*


Wow, I've never seen such caliber, the breguet spiral-mobile stud combination is extremely rare... Does anybody knows this caliber ?


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## Dan S

707mm2 said:


> Wow, I've never seen such caliber, the breguet spiral-mobile stud combination is extremely rare... Does anybody knows this caliber ?


Excelsior Park EP4, I believe. Or EP40?


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## WatchFred

an Excelsior Park cal. 04 or JB04, Dan, to be precise; for Jeanneret Brehm, the corporate name when they were launched. similar to the "R" on the Valjoux for Raymond Freres.


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## pantelis25

This one has been on ebay for quite a long time now. I could say that price is a bit high. What do you think about it? I mean is it correct, something suspicious?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gallet-Mul...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


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## DragonDan

You nailed it, it's a really high price. It is a rare piece, no doubt, but it can't quite command that asking price. Plus, the seller should be smacked in the head for calling this MINT. It doesn't appear to be abused, but it's obviously been worn and used for many years. Again, nothing wrong with that, but that kind of talk makes me think the seller doesn't know what they are talking about. A definite red flag.

I'd certainly enjoy owning it, it is a desirable variant of the venerable R72



pantelis25 said:


> This one has been on ebay for quite a long time now. I could say that price is a bit high. What do you think about it? I mean is it correct, something suspicious?


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## pantelis25

DragonDan said:


> You nailed it, it's a really high price. It is a rare piece, no doubt, but it can't quite command that asking price. Plus, the seller should be smacked in the head for calling this MINT. It doesn't appear to be abused, but it's obviously been worn and used for many years. Again, nothing wrong with that, but that kind of talk makes me think the seller doesn't know what they are talking about. A definite red flag.
> 
> I'd certainly enjoy owning it, it is a desirable variant of the venerable R72


Thanks a lot Dan. Yes is a quite rare and beautiful piece but price is toooo high. I hope some sellers eventually come to their senses...


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## Krogerfoot

Gallet World's Facebook page announces your monthly chance to purchase another piece of watchmaking history for perhaps half of its purported value. As always, you can set your own watch by the description: "I was very fortunate to acquire this important timepiece in such amazing condition. Apparently stored away and handled with care for most of its 50 plus years, the case shows only minor signs of use. The dial (face) is in extra fine 100% original condition with only a few minor marks adjacent to the 7:00 position."

Actually, this time there are a few variations on the marketing patter. The "Pre-Auction Valuation Due to Condition" is a little lower than before, at a mere $4,000 to $6,000 this time. The description of the movement is uncharacteristically specific, being word for word the same as the Facebook comment from Gallet USA's chief officer (who, on Facebook, makes no pretense to not being intimately involved in these sales).

At any rate, this is another nice watch being let go for an apparent song by the people who'd seem to know better than anybody its true worth. If you think actions don't speak louder than words, happy bidding.


----------



## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> Gallet World's Facebook page announces your monthly chance to purchase another piece of watchmaking history for perhaps half of its purported value. As always, you can set your own watch by the description: "I was very fortunate to acquire this important timepiece in such amazing condition. Apparently stored away and handled with care for most of its 50 plus years, the case shows only minor signs of use. The dial (face) is in extra fine 100% original condition with only a few minor marks adjacent to the 7:00 position."
> 
> Actually, this time there are a few variations on the marketing patter. The "Pre-Auction Valuation Due to Condition" is a little lower than before, at a mere $4,000 to $6,000 this time. The description of the movement is uncharacteristically specific, being word for word the same as the Facebook comment from Gallet USA's chief officer (who, on Facebook, makes no pretense to not being intimately involved in these sales).
> 
> At any rate, this is another nice watch being let go for an apparent song by the people who'd seem to know better than anybody its true worth. If you think actions don't speak louder than words, happy bidding.


Looks legit to me, and if not for the pattern of the other listings, it would just fall into the fairly standard category of hyperbolic seller's descriptions (e.g. "One of the finest and cleanest examples ever to go to auction"). Very nice watch and worth owning.


----------



## Krogerfoot

Krogerfoot said:


> At any rate, this is another nice watch being let go for an apparent song by the people who'd seem to know better than anybody its true worth. If you think actions don't speak louder than words, happy bidding.


Sold, for $3,350.


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## Joe_A

Just found this thread . . .

What do the experts think about this watch?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GALLET-STA...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

There is a huge gulf between a vintage watch expert and me, lol, but this one looked quite appealing.

~Joe


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## DragonDan

This is a good watch. ExPark EP40-68 caliber that doesn't look like it's been fooled with.
This is known as the Jim Clark Multichron 12. It can record an event up to 12 hours. There should be an 'H' stamped on the back of one of the lugs. 

My phone doesn't display the images well, compresses them into mush. So I'm not 100% sure on the dial, it looks to me like the colors don't match, but it may just be me.
-Daniel 

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> This is a good watch. ExPark EP40-68 caliber that doesn't look like it's been fooled with.
> This is known as the Jim Clark Multichron 12. It can record an event up to 12 hours. There should be an 'H' stamped on the back of one of the lugs.
> 
> My phone doesn't display the images well, compresses them into mush. So I'm not 100% sure on the dial, it looks to me like the colors don't match, but it may just be me.
> -Daniel
> 
> Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


On my monitor it looks re-lumed and a bit polished for my taste. As mentioned, a very desirable piece. Indeed, there is an "H" on the back of the lug.


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## DragonDan

Another fanciful creation. Biggest tell (other than the rather bland redial)? A non-incabloc caliber in a 1970's case....










This may well have been a Gallet caliber originally, but with its many different colors and screw-head types, who knows anymore. The chrono bridge looks like the newest part, doesn't it? No JXR import code, but that is not always an indicator of a franken watch. 









It appears to me that this screw back is too small for the case. Those trapezoid casebacks were mostly used on Gallet's with the V773x calibers in the mid 1970's.


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## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> Another fanciful creation ...


That one earns a very high grade for creativity. Hopefully nobody will be fooled.


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## Dan S

How much Gallet remains in this piece? (Sorry if it's already been posted.)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GALLET-VIN...709994?hash=item23aad178aa:g:oFcAAOSw9N1V1hL8


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## pantelis25

What is this?!!!!!!!!

https://www.chrono24.com/gallet/rare--series-iii-chronograph-raf-issued--id9162319.htm


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## Dan S

pantelis25 said:


> What is this?!!!!!!!!
> 
> https://www.chrono24.com/gallet/rare--series-iii-chronograph-raf-issued--id9162319.htm


As noted by the seller, it is likely a Precista "6BB" chronograph that was given a Gallet dial at some point. I think that's a plausible guess. The asking price, on the other hand, is harder to understand, since you can get a very desirable 1960s or 1970s column wheel military chronograph for less (e.g. Lemania 6BB, Dodane Type 21, etc.).


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## DragonDan

Yes, that's an odd one. It does look like a proper Gallet Valjoux 7733, but a good bit of artistic leeway on the dial.


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## DragonDan

Here's a bizarre pair. The owner of these is certain they are legitimate. Looks to me like a seagull movement on the silver one. No idea on the multi time zone one.


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## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> Here's a bizarre pair. The owner of these is certain they are legitimate. Looks to me like a seagull movement on the silver one. No idea on the multi time zone one.


Perhaps the Excelsior Park trademark was purchased at some point and they started making these watches. It wouldn't be the first example of this.


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## DragonDan

I suppose it is vaguely possible, but doubtful. Gallet purchased ExPark in 1983, so all products from that point have been Gallet watches. I feel the owner of these two pieces won't consider that they are just fakes. 
Kind of a shame, there's nothing really wrong with the Seagull movements from what I have heard. Just regular movements, nothing fancy.



badbackdan said:


> Perhaps the Excelsior Park trademark was purchased at some point and they started making these watches. It wouldn't be the first example of this.


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## laikrodukas

Well let him live in his dream world


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## Joe_A

Real or fake?

Better to have said, original or modified/altered?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ga...059490?hash=item1a5ec41922:g:taYAAOSwFzxbonvm

San Francisco spelled correctly?
Cathedral hands?









Cheers,

Joe

I have recently "joined the club" with an MC-12, EP 40-68 black dial, no tachymeter/telemeter.

Photos to follow when I remember where I put my camera with macro lens. ;-)


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## Hartmut Richter

Real or fake? Well, let me start by asking why, in the absence of a 24 hour hand, there is a world time zone ring which cannot be rotated. And please let me continue by asking why the lume on the numerals is applied moderately shoddily (lower edges of "2" and "4", black bits showing on the "7".....).

Hartmut Richter


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## Joe_A

Hartmut Richter said:


> Real or fake? Well, let me start by asking why, in the absence of a 24 hour hand, there is a world time zone ring which cannot be rotated. And please let me continue by asking why the lume on the numerals is applied moderately shoddily (lower edges of "2" and "4", black bits showing on the "7".....).
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Are we sure the ring cannot be rotated? The Ebay ad indicates it is a rotating bezel and it looks offset as if rotated. The lume is a bit sloppy but not completely out of character for this watch model.

I just haven't seen a Flying Officer with San Francisco spelled the usual way yet. Typically it is San Francisko with a "k" for the F.O.

Here are two comparison shots with a presumed good one, albeit a later model from Chron24:

The movement looks about right to my unpracticed eye. The one on the left from Chrono24 is later and does not have the pointer on the adjuster.


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## OhDark30

*Gallet & Co. crosscheck of possible fakes/ frankens*

Different hands, crown and pushers
Different numbers (partic 4 and 8).
Different placement of Flying Officer on the dial
(Though this could all be model differences)


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## WatchFred

re the FO: case may be autherntic, dial and hands are fake.
watch is sold by one of the many fronts of the "California Crooks", same source as this "Gallet": https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-ga...Wind-Men-Watch-/123380191204?oid=113041453890

a dozen of seller names, all w/ very similar pic styles; their "Breitling" Nabvitimers and Chronomat 808 &760 are 100% fake.

@Daniel: Gallet might have bought some of the remaining Excelsior Park, but the rights to the name were sold to Flume in 1986 who then tried to revive it w/ the "Monte Carlo" and several other projects, Flume still owns the rights to the brand.


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## Joe_A

WatchFred said:


> re the FO: case may be autherntic, dial and hands are fake.
> watch is sold by one of the many fronts of the "California Crooks", same source as this "Gallet": https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-ga...Wind-Men-Watch-/123380191204?oid=113041453890
> 
> a dozen of seller names, all w/ very similar pic styles; their "Breitling" Nabvitimers and Chronomat 808 &760 are 100% fake.
> 
> @Daniel: Gallet might have bought some of the remaining Excelsior Park, but the rights to the name were sold to Flume in 1986 who then tried to revive it w/ the "Monte Carlo" and several other projects, Flume still owns the rights to the brand.


Thank you, Sir . . .

Your post is the reason for this thread. 

The watch sold this morning for $1,575.00 and I was not one of the bidders, though I am sure that I am "at risk," in future just like anyone else who is not an expert.

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: You have a wonderful collection Fred. Before I consider buying anything I scan through your collection to check whether the watch exists in the real world or not. If you have one, I consider that to be a good start!

2nd Edit: I also wish to thank Hartmut Richter and OhDark30 for their contributions.


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## Joe_A

Same alleged "Flying Officer" that just sold on Ebay today or an amazing coincidence?

https://www.chrono24.com/gallet/rare-pilot-chronograph--id8445311.htm

One difference = no red #12.

It does have the same cathedral hands.
It does have San Francisco spelled without a "k."

How do we evaluate whether original/authentic versus 'franken' or otherwise modified?

Cheers,

Joe


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## WatchFred

the California Crooks mass produce - at least a dozen fake Navitimers, Chronomat and Tudors during the last year.
will report this to c24.


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## Joe_A

WatchFred said:


> the California Crooks mass produce - at least a dozen fake Navitimers, Chronomat and Tudors during the last year.
> will report this to c24.


Thank you.

I am hoping to learn as I go. We ought to try and protect one another and give the scoundrels a little trouble when they are caught out.

From my reading of this thread in its entirety and some others of a similar nature, even people who mean well and have a lot of experience . . . and who wish to be helpful are challenged at times to recognize fakes.

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: The seller on Chrono24 is located in Naples Florida and currently is a "trusted seller" since 2013 and has 595 watches listed. That of course does not mean that the watch is a genuine article.

In the absence of any pattern of poor behavior being reported here or elsewhere, I'd be inclined to give the seller the benefit of the doubt as to whether they too have been duped - unless they can offer a good argument that the watch is genuine. Let's see if the watch comes down?


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## Hartmut Richter

Joe_A said:


> Are we sure the ring cannot be rotated? The Ebay ad indicates it is a rotating bezel and it looks offset as if rotated.


Although it may be a little late, just to elaborate:

The outer bezel definitely rotates but it is only a 12 hour bezel, not a 24 hour bezel. The inner "bezel" with the time zones isn't really one, i.e. it doesn't rotate. The combination of the whole lot together doesn't make sense: you need a 24 hour hand or a 24h rotating time zone bezel or ring for it to make sense.....

Hartmut Richter


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## Joe_A

Hartmut Richter said:


> Although it may be a little late, just to elaborate:
> 
> The outer bezel definitely rotates but it is only a 12 hour bezel, not a 24 hour bezel. The inner "bezel" with the time zones isn't really one, i.e. it doesn't rotate. The combination of the whole lot together doesn't make sense: you need a 24 hour hand or a 24h rotating time zone bezel or ring for it to make sense.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


The Gallet F.O. was equipped with a 12-hour bezel by design and there never was an inner rotating bezel as far as I am aware.

More info here:

Gallet Chronograph Watch - Flight Officer Chronograph

cheers,

Joe


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## DragonDan

Thanks for that clarification WF,
I'd forgotten about the Flume company, but didn't know they still held the rights to the ExPark name. They carried on for a while after Gallet purchased the equipment and stock (which still sits in a Switzerland warehouse outside of Zurich).

The famed Monte Carlo









It looks like this is a newer model ExPark. I'm not sure when the company finally dissolved.
Omega Forums post:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/excelsior-park-caliber-jb51-hw-rare-i-guess-so.27708/



WatchFred said:


> @Daniel: Gallet might have bought some of the remaining Excelsior Park, but the rights to the name were sold to Flume in 1986 who then tried to revive it w/ the "Monte Carlo" and several other projects, Flume still owns the rights to the brand.


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## Krogerfoot

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-...CHRONOGRAPH-VALJOUX-72-C-/223165371390?_ul=JP

eBay says this is relisted. I feel like it's been discussed here before but I can't investigate at the moment.


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## DragonDan

I see nothing wrong with this one, other than the hour/ minute hands.
I'm not sure why, but these 1950's calendar watches don't garner much interest. I've always thought the flat pusher model was a bit more refined than it's counterparts a couple decades later. 

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## Joe_A

So what do we think of this "1952 Gallet with Valjoux 72" movement?

The hands trouble me for starters . . .


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## DragonDan

We'd have to see the movement and caseback markings, but the whole thing tends to indicate a franken watch. That dial has design cues spread across about three decades, so it's a redial with an 'artists representation' of a Gallet dial. 

And not to question a photographers design choices, but why does that first image remind me of 1980's high school yearbook photos?


----------



## Joe_A

DragonDan said:


> We'd have to see the movement and caseback markings, but the whole thing tends to indicate a franken watch. That dial has design cues spread across about three decades, so it's a redial with an 'artists representation' of a Gallet dial.
> 
> And not to question a photographers design choices, but why does that first image remind me of 1980's high school yearbook photos?


I agree with your observations.

Generally speaking, when I see a photo of a watch that just doesn't look right, I review WatchFred's Instagram collection as well as other collections one can find on Instagram. Of course, it's just a starting point when one is thinking about acquiring a watch.

In this case, there are no fine detail close-ups. What we see here is as good as it gets - which is not good enough. One thing is obvious though is that the hands appear solid as if one slathered lume over a skeletal hand covering the edges and the center . . . and the match to the numerals appears too perfect.

The movement looks OK from a distance, but one would want to see a close-up.









Notice too that the photos are a bit soft.

I'm relatively new to the hobby. When I make a post such as these two about this watch, I am in "learning mode."


----------



## DragonDan

Well, that looks like a proper Valjoux 72, although the "Gallet & Co." on the chrono bridge looks lasered on. The lettering is too big.

It should look like this Gallet MultiChron Pilot, circa 1978









They don't always have the JXR import code on the balance bridge, however it's pretty common. Not having it is a clue to a 'repurposed' caliber.


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## Joe_A

Here is the original listing on Ebay.de:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/ORIG-VINTAG...rentrq:658ed0141660aadc2a416cfcfffc70d6|iid:1

The photos posted by the seller are a bit better than my screen captures above. That said, the seller indicated that the watch appears not to be lumed. We may be looking at a painted dial and hands? I would also think that the subdials and indices should be silvered or gilt. The subdial hands should be bare metal.

In 1952 we ought to be looking at either radium or early tritium, I would suppose.


----------



## DragonDan

Here we have a 'kitchen table special'. With the help of the posters below, the movement is identified as a V7734 variant, not the Poljot 3133 I had first thought. Remainder of post edited to updated information.




























Here we can safely say this is a straight-up franken watch. The dial is reworked, with the Gallet logo being off center. I'm not sure what the source watch is from, I don't remember seeing those large indicies elsewhere. The hour/ minute hands don't seem to be the correct length either. The seconds hand is the correct length, so one out of three ain't bad? 

It's hard to tell from such low-res images, but there doesn't appear to be a minute recording hand (3 o'clock subdial). Edit: it's there, hidden by the overbearing nail polish red. Shows pointing to 12 o'clock.

Unless my eyes mistake me, I don't see provisions for an o-ring at the caseback. 
I've only seen one other kitchen table V7734 with a redone Gallet logo on the face. That one had a date window carved out apparently with a steak knife.


----------



## kinaed

DragonDan said:


> Here we have a 'kitchen table special'. At first glance, the movement looks like a V7734, however there are some hallmarks that identify this as a Poljot 3133.


A Poljot 3133 has 23 jewels, including a jeweled chrono bridge - and on that bridge resides the jewel count, "23 КАМНЯ" along with the calibre and serial number.

-k


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## OhDark30

I'm not seeing that as a 3133 - case, face or calibre

As kinaed says, the bridge should have another jewel, and the calibre, jewel count and serial number are normally inscribed on it

Whereas there's an engraving on the pictured watch at 7 o'clock in that view: would be interested to see a better quality image

(I'm not an expert, but read polmax's guide to the calibre pretty thoroughly when I tracked down my own 3133s
http://polmax3133.com/guide.html


----------



## DragonDan

Thanks for the input Kinaed and OD30, that does help. 
What I based my thinking on is mainly the weirdo dial/ crown, and the cam at the top of the caliber. On the 3133 calibers I looked through on Ranfft's database had the same two rivets next to the big screw head, whereas the V7734 calibers had different attachment points.

Here's an alternate view of the face. I still feel this is a franken, not a true Gallet.









Here's a proper Gallet Valjoux 7733, in a 24-hour watch. Notice on the chrono cam it's mostly flat, it doesn't have the two rivets as shown on the V7734. Was there that much variance in the same caliber across production runs?


----------



## kinaed

Here's a good side-by-side comparison:








-k


----------



## DragonDan

That does help clarify, thank you! 
I found an old image of a Gallet V7733 that I'd sold a few years back. It has those two rivets I was speaking about earlier.


----------



## Krogerfoot

The fire sale from Gallet USA continues: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-GA...5?pageci=c62f93cf-edc3-4144-8ebe-f13871794bba


----------



## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> The fire sale from Gallet USA continues: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-GA...5?pageci=c62f93cf-edc3-4144-8ebe-f13871794bba


Well, I'd be a bit surprised if a 30mm chronograph sold for >$10,000 per the auction estimate, but I guess we will see.


----------



## Krogerfoot

badbackdan said:


> Well, I'd be a bit surprised if a 30mm chronograph sold for >$10,000 per the auction estimate, but I guess we will see.


Sold for less than $3K. Gallet USA's quest to demonstrate that vintage Gallet watches are overpriced has an unblemished record of success at this point.

I just noticed that the watch in question was noted in everyone's favorite target of derision, Bring a Loupe on the Hodinkee site. From the column:



> "According to the seller, who is apparently a scholar of both Universal Geneve and Gallet, this example of the Universal Geneve/Martel Cal. 281 Compax equipped Multichron 12 is said to be one of the very first triple-register chronographs to have ever been produced, and the first ever example of the Multichron 12, after extensive research of serial, reference, and movement numbering systems from both brands."


This is the coyness that I find so confounding. If the sellers can back up their claims, that would make the piece more valuable, wouldn't it? I mean, why _conceal_ your authority in a situation where scholarship makes so much difference? Maybe the sellers are desperate for cash-no shame in that, although it would seem to be worthwhile and more lucrative to liquidate the collection at any reputable auction house other than eBay. Otherwise, what we see is that the people in the best position to know the provenance and scarcity of these Gallet watches don't think they're worth all that much. Caveat emptor, certainly.


----------



## Krogerfoot

Folks who hanker for a very old Gallet chronograph may have a chance to buy one on eBay soon. I expect we'll hear that it's a priceless, one-of-a-kind historic piece. Potential buyers should consider why the sellers are so eager to part with it.


----------



## Joe_A

Moving away from OoV, these look interesting:









On Ebay, under "Vintage Gallet MultiChron Navigator GMT Chronograph Wristwatch VERY RARE NR EP4"

And this one:









Listed on Ebay from France as "Rare and original Gallet Flight Flying Officer Chronograph"


----------



## DragonDan

Yes, those are valuable pieces.

the first one is the venerable Gallet Sextant. A modified EP4 that allows hacking seconds, and an additional crown that controls the "North pointing" hand. One in this condition is about as rare as it gets. The last few I've seen pop up for sale was a hodge-podge of different hands and such. 

The Flight Officer is one of the earlier ones, circa early 1940's. It was this model that was the first Gallet that used the then-new Incabloc shock protection on the balance wheel.


----------



## Krogerfoot

I'm curious about this one, for which the low bidding (so far) makes me wonder what people are seeing and staying away from. Has it been recased in a chromed housing? The crown seems to have taken quite a beating relative to the pushers. "RARE GALLET MILITARY 1940's CHRONOGRAPH w TELEMETER ORIGINAL DIAL SERVICED STEEL"






















Here is the old chronograph I mentioned earlier: "Antique GALLET Chronograph - WWI Military - Museum Quality - Sterling - Ca. 1914"
The seller notes that this watch will appear in the upcoming Gallet book, which makes it interesting (perhaps only to me) to speculate why it would be sold now. Bidding is still very low.


----------



## WatchFred

the Venus-based piece is correct, these came in chromed cases.


----------



## Joe_A

The Gallet Sextant sold for $9,877.77. 

I'd have had to be madly in love . . . and still in the infatuation state to have bought it at that price, but it is a lovely old watch.


----------



## Krogerfoot

WatchFred said:


> the Venus-based piece is correct, these came in chromed cases.


Hmm, bidding is still pretty low. Is there something off about this watch?


----------



## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> Hmm, bidding is still pretty low. Is there something off about this watch?


What do you expect for a 34mm Venus 188-powered chronograph in a badly-damaged chrome-plated case? The current bid of $1,025usd is more than I would pay.


----------



## Krogerfoot

Well, the bidding has leapt up significantly since I looked at it, then.


----------



## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> Well, the bidding has leapt up significantly since I looked at it, then.


The hammer price was $1,222.


----------



## Joe_A

One more time for another one of these . . .









Are we sure now that these Gallet F.O. watches with cathedral hands (and San Francisco spelled the modern way) are either fake or made from original parts but with incorrect hands?

Listing here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-GALLET-FLIGHT-OFFICER-CHRONOGRAPH-LANDERON-248-39-MM-PILOT/302946984130?_trkparms=aid%3D777001%26algo%3DDISCO.FEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160801204525%26meid%3Db83266de6ebd4d83be27d5ca7c7e5b4c%26pid%3D100651%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D302946984130&_trksid=p2481888.c100651.m4497&_trkparms=pageci%3A3cdb5ca0-e29a-11e8-a4c1-74dbd180106f%7Cparentrq%3Aee989bd81660aa4675c0a7b2fff9bad3%7Ciid%3A1

I mention this only because a similar watch remains listed on Chrono24 as well . . . and we did see one of these sell on Ebay not long ago.

WatchFred has previously indicated these are likely fake.

Caveat Emptor.


----------



## Dan S

Joe_A said:


> One more time for another one of these . . .
> 
> View attachment 13621517
> 
> 
> Are we sure now that these Gallet F.O. watches with cathedral hands (and San Francisco spelled the modern way) are either fake or made from original parts but with incorrect hands?
> 
> Listing here:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-GALLET-FLIGHT-OFFICER-CHRONOGRAPH-LANDERON-248-39-MM-PILOT/302946984130?_trkparms=aid%3D777001%26algo%3DDISCO.FEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160801204525%26meid%3Db83266de6ebd4d83be27d5ca7c7e5b4c%26pid%3D100651%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D302946984130&_trksid=p2481888.c100651.m4497&_trkparms=pageci%3A3cdb5ca0-e29a-11e8-a4c1-74dbd180106f%7Cparentrq%3Aee989bd81660aa4675c0a7b2fff9bad3%7Ciid%3A1
> 
> I mention this only because a similar watch remains listed on Chrono24 as well . . . and we did see one of these sell on Ebay not long ago.
> 
> WatchFred has previously indicated these are likely fake.
> 
> Caveat Emptor.


The seller indicates that the hands are not correct.


----------



## Joe_A

Dan said: "The seller indicates that the hands are not correct."

Shame on me; I missed the statement even though it is plainly there.

This tends to confirm that a nearly identical watch listed currently on Chrono24 and a previous one on Ebay which sold for $1,575.00 were equally incorrect.


----------



## Dan S

Joe_A said:


> Dan said: "The seller indicates that the hands are not correct."
> 
> Shame on me; I missed the statement even though it is plainly there.
> 
> This tends to confirm that a nearly identical watch listed currently on Chrono24 and a previous one on Ebay which sold for $1,575.00 were equally incorrect.


I had seen this piece before and added the comment about the hands to my "notes" so I wouldn't forget.


----------



## WatchFred

another beauty from the California Crooks (a dozen or so of ebay seller accounts, all using the same picture style, all from California, most watches fabricated, some "only" franken) lists a "VINTAGE GALLET 2 CHRONOGRAPH" ....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GA...h=item3fb131ab16:g:G2sAAOSw1jpb5xtv:rk:1:pf:0


----------



## Dan S

WatchFred said:


> another beauty from the California Crooks (a dozen or so of ebay seller accounts, all using the same picture style, all from California, most watches fabricated, some "only" franken) lists a "VINTAGE GALLET 2 CHRONOGRAPH" ....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GA...h=item3fb131ab16:g:G2sAAOSw1jpb5xtv:rk:1:pf:0


Horrendous. I just came here to post this listing, and saw that you had already done it.


----------



## DragonDan

Seeing this makes me feel like somebody punched me in the stomach.

WF and BBDan are correct - an atrocity


----------



## DragonDan

To continue with ridiculous watch parts, to these images I say: have you ever actually seen a Gallet watch???


----------



## Joe_A

So what would we like to say about this one?









There are two other 30M clamshells also on Chrono24 at the moment which differ from the one above in two very obvious ways:

The stamping of the serial number on the case seems to be professionally done.
"Made in Switzerland" does not appear on the bottom of the dial.

Is this an example of "try harder next time you want to make a fake?"

Or is this an honest watch?

Below are the other two, one of which is reserved:


----------



## Dan S

That clamshell looks great to me. Maybe the print at the bottom is obscured by a rehaut in the other examples.


----------



## Joe_A

badbackdan said:


> That clamshell looks great to me. Maybe the print at the bottom is obscured by a rehaut in the other examples.


I'd like to remind anyone who sees this post that I am a newcomer to the hobby, so each post that I make is intended to help others like myself understand how to determine whether a watch is "legit" or not.

I agree that the watch in question is beautiful to the eye. I was concerned with the "Made in Switzerland" appearing at the bottom when coupled with the stamping quality on the back case. But I also realize that watches manufactured mid last century often exhibit inconsistencies.


----------



## Dan S

Joe_A said:


> I'd like to remind anyone who sees this post that I am a newcomer to the hobby, so each post that I make is intended to help others like myself understand how to determine whether a watch is "legit" or not.
> 
> I agree that the watch in question is beautiful to the eye. I was concerned with the "Made in Switzerland" appearing at the bottom when coupled with the stamping quality on the back case. But I also realize that watches manufactured mid last century often exhibit inconsistencies.


Sorry if my post seemed critical. I didn't mean it that way; just giving my own opinion. In general, I've seen enough "SWISS", "SWISS MADE", and "MADE IN SWITZERLAND" on Gallet dials that I've become pretty tolerant of variations, and I just wanted to indicate that the printing looked good overall.

And I suspect that the last one you posted may indeed have a rehaut blocking some printing at the bottom.


----------



## Joe_A

Thanks Dan,

I did not interpret your post as being critical. I just wanted to make sure that no one interpreted my own post as an attempt to be authoritative. 

It's good to know that a variation such as "Made in Switzerland" actually exists for Gallet watches. 

FYI, I found another of these on Hodinkee where one of the serial numbers is stamped a bit sloppy - out of line.

We should remember that some of these watchmakers of the day were watchmakers during the winter months and dairy farmers in the warmer months.


----------



## DragonDan

You know, I can't think of another Gallet Venus 150 example that has the serial numbering all askew like that on the caseback. I'll look through my archives, but it does seem weird. Do you know if this has Gallet & Co. on the inside of the caseback?

Okay, I looked before I hit the send button. The only V150 I have in my photo archives with wonky serial numbers is this one. It's a first generation Flight Officer model, so no younger than 1939.










*edit, added FO info. 
I should have added that the other two V150 clamshell models look fine. I do always wonder how an 80 year old dial looks so great.


----------



## Dan S

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but are these hands correct? They look incredibly long.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GA...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## Tucayjordan

badbackdan said:


> Sorry if this has already been addressed, but are these hands correct? They look incredibly long.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GA...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


I believe this hands are NOT correct.


----------



## Tucayjordan

Joe_A said:


> So what would we like to say about this one?
> 
> View attachment 13653735
> 
> 
> There are two other 30M clamshells also on Chrono24 at the moment which differ from the one above in two very obvious ways:
> 
> The stamping of the serial number on the case seems to be professionally done.
> "Made in Switzerland" does not appear on the bottom of the dial.
> 
> Is this an example of "try harder next time you want to make a fake?"
> 
> Or is this an honest watch?


It is an honest Gallet Clamshell. You can find more pictures here: 
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/GALLET-chro...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## Dan S

Strictly speaking this is not a Gallet, but the seller lists it as a "Gallet Ckamshell pilot chrono ( Harvard ) just serviced! Collector grade watch.", and obviously it is very much in the style of a Gallet Clamshell with a Venus movement. I wanted to address a couple of concerns about it.

(1) The seller says that the movement shown in the photo is not the movement from this watch, but taken from the internet instead, because he forgot to take a photo during the watch's recent service. [Edit: I requested a movement photo, and he sent me one, as well as a photo of the case-back, as shown below. These look good to me, so this concern is addressed.]

(2) The hands are much too long compared to other examples. The seller indicated that he doesn't have the original hands unfortunately. Although it's not my favorite way to buy a watch, I think one could probably find reasonable replacements with a bit of work.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gallet-Cka...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## DragonDan

I see it as a variant. I do own a Gallet Landeron 149 chrono with these exact same hands.

Yes, we expect to see the Dauphine hands on a L149'ed Flight Officer, but the owner may have specified that these particular hands be put on. I do know that the Flight Officer in particular was offered in various customizations, including relocating the cities listing so that their home was at the top. To this day, I've only seen one example of this, the one we call the Bikini Flight Officer.



badbackdan said:


> Sorry if this has already been addressed, but are these hands correct? They look incredibly long.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GA...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
> 
> View attachment 13655489


----------



## Joe_A

In response to the inquiry by badbackdan on the prior page . . .

Purely by coincidence, I'm sure, this watch as you see it above has become part of the Gallet World site:

Gallet Chronograph Watch -. Flight Officer Chronograph









There appears to be some connection between Objects of Virtue offerings on Ebay and what sometimes gets amended to on the Gallet World site. I am not meaning to suggest anything shady, but I don't know what to think, actually.

~ Joe

Edit: I realize it's a bit snarky to say so, but any Gallet watch can be made to seem legit when it appears on the Gallet World site shortly after it shows up for sale somewhere else.

On the other hand, in the spirit of dedication to the hobby or area of interest, the owners of the Gallet World site have a right - and perhaps a duty - to update the content as deemed appropriate whenever a discovery is made that a particular model, style or variation of a watch has been previously overlooked.


----------



## Joe_A

Tucayjordan said:


> It is an honest Gallet Clamshell. You can find more pictures here:
> https://www.ebay.fr/itm/GALLET-chro...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


The watch on Ebay cited above is the same watch I referred to also listed on Chrono24.

We often see watches listed simultaneously on Ebay and Chrono24.

Cheeers,

~ Joe


----------



## Dan S

badbackdan said:


> Strictly speaking this is not a Gallet, but the seller lists it as a "Gallet Ckamshell pilot chrono ( Harvard ) just serviced! Collector grade watch.", and obviously it is very much in the style of a Gallet Clamshell with a Venus movement. I wanted to address a couple of concerns about it.
> 
> (1) The seller says that the movement shown in the photo is not the movement from this watch, but taken from the internet instead, because he forgot to take a photo during the watch's recent service. [Edit: I requested a movement photo, and he sent me one, as well as a photo of the case-back, as shown below. These look good to me, so this concern is addressed.]
> 
> (2) The hands are much too long compared to other examples. The seller indicated that he doesn't have the original hands unfortunately. Although it's not my favorite way to buy a watch, I think one could probably find reasonable replacements with a bit of work.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gallet-Cka...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


Upon further review, I'm having problems with the dial on this Harvard clamshell watch. I have found about 10 other examples, and in all cases, the printing within the sub-dials extends all the way out to the edge of the indentation. Also, this was the only example I found where the "20", "25", "30", "35", and "40" are upside-down (i.e. oriented radially outward). The overall quality of the printing is so high that I'm really having a hard time believing that it's a re-dial, but it's becoming less interesting to me.


----------



## Tucayjordan

badbackdan said:


> Upon further review, I'm having problems with the dial on this Harvard clamshell watch. I have found about 10 other examples, and in all cases, the printing within the sub-dials extends all the way out to the edge of the indentation. Also, this was the only example I found where the "20", "25", "30", "35", and "40" are upside-down (i.e. oriented radially outward). The overall quality of the printing is so high that I'm really having a hard time believing that it's a re-dial, but it's becoming less interesting to me.


Yes backbadan, there are different types of Harvard dials with differences like the one that you have pointed, also the number squeme in the subdials and the edges with or without little "squared" compartments to mark the seconds (the 9 o´clock subdial) and to count the minutes (the 3 o´clock subdial). 
There were at least three types of Harvard chronographs assembling this type of (slightly different) dials : one with Venus 150 with brevet 189190 cases ("Clamshell") of 34.4mm, one with Venus 150 with snap back cases with square pushers of 32-33mm and one with Venus 175 with brevet 189190 cases ("Clamshell") of 36.5 mm.
This is example assembles the older and smaller Venus 150. To my eyes it is an honest Harvard chronograph, hands included (they look longer because the watch is 2mm smaller than the one with Venus 175).
My hypothesis is that Harvard was one of the brands that shared the same Venus (140, 150 and 175 )cases numbers serie with Gallet.


----------



## Dan S

Tucayjordan said:


> Yes backbadan, there are different types of Harvard dials with differences like the one that you have pointed, also the number squeme in the subdials and the edges with or without little "squared" compartments to mark the seconds (the 9 o´clock subdial) and to count the minutes (the 3 o´clock subdial).
> There were at least three types of Harvard chronographs assembling this type of (slightly different) dials : one with Venus 150 with brevet 189190 cases ("Clamshell") of 34.4mm, one with Venus 150 with snap back cases with square pushers of 32-33mm and one with Venus 175 with brevet 189190 cases ("Clamshell") of 36.5 mm.
> This is example assembles the older and smaller Venus 150. To my eyes it is an honest Harvard chronograph, hands included (they look longer because the watch is 2mm smaller than the one with Venus 175).
> My hypothesis is that Harvard was one of the brands that shared the same Venus (140, 150 and 175 )cases numbers serie with Gallet.


Thank you for this! Very interesting that it is correct as it is. The seller says that it is 36mm. I have a very hard time telling the difference between Venus 150 and 175.


----------



## Krogerfoot

Tucayjordan said:


> I believe this hands are NOT correct.


According to the seller, who is also the managing director of Gallet USA, "Those extra long "neck tie" hands were always used with Landeron 149 calibre during this period (1970's) on both the MC45M and the Flying/Flight Officers." I'm still curious whether these Flying Officers were ever supplied to the Swiss Army. It seems reasonable to conclude that they weren't.


----------



## Tucayjordan

badbackdan said:


> The seller says that it is 36mm.


If I am not wrong with my hypothesis about the same case numbers serie, this Harvard is from 1939-1940 and as far as I know the Venus 175 began to be assembled after WW2 circa 1946...

It would be necessary to mesure properly the diameter of the movement (and the case): if the diameter of the movement were 31 mm (Venus 175), then there would not be enough room to be assembled in a 34.4mm case... the opposite situation (assembling a Venus 150 of 29mm in a 36.5mm case) makes no sense.

Also the Venus 165 was a chronograph with 2 subdials (and also one or two pushers) and 31 mm of diameter... and it was previous to the Venus 175...

Under the dial side, on the main plate, it is engraved the Venus logo and the number of the caliber... but to see it, it is necessary to remove the hands which is a potentially "risky" manipulation...

To conclude if the diameter of the watch without crown were truly 36mm, I would love to see the main plate side under the dial... to understand and to learn something...


----------



## Tucayjordan

Well, I need to correct my self: I have just verified that this type of Harvard assembles a Venus 165 of 31.27mm of diameter, so the size that states the seller is correct.


----------



## Dan S

Tucayjordan said:


> Well, I need to correct my self: I have just verified that this type of Harvard assembles a Venus 165 of 31.27mm of diameter, so the size that states the seller is correct.
> View attachment 13658437


Thank you for this information! I also found some other examples that are said to be 36mm or 36.5mm, so it is definitely plausible.


----------



## DragonDan

This is why I like the open discussion here, I learn better this way~


----------



## Tucayjordan

Another Gallet franken:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OROLOGIO-C...8-/173663019612?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276


----------



## SunnyOrange

Tucayjordan said:


> Another Gallet franken:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/OROLOGIO-C...8-/173663019612?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276


Looks like someone was using graphite pencil to write numbers.... :-s


----------



## DragonDan

Tucayjordan said:


> Another Gallet franken:


Yes, this is an interesting marriage. For all those divers who need to know what time it is in Bagdad


----------



## DragonDan

Among some gems that show up on the great online auction recently.










I'm not sure why one watch is listed three separate times.


----------



## Joe_A

I wouldn't buy any watch I did not feel secure about, especially as I have been at this for less than a year.

Can you help us understand what is wrong with the silver pilot?

It seems a redial with lighter than normal blue, but beyond that?

















Now, looking at them one above the other, it seems the silver background looks pretty unoriginal as well.

Crown is not right either.

As far as the hands and markers go . . . I would not be able to recognize whether they were an original variation, or else someone's imaginative interpretation of a vintage watch.

I seem to be answering my own questions. ;-)

~ Joe


----------



## Krogerfoot

Here is a Flying Officer listed as having a Laderon 248 and being serviced last year. It comes with another woozy Swiss cross on the back and the usual claims of Swiss military issue. The hands look wrong to me. Bidding is currently under US$800.


----------



## DragonDan

Joe_A said:


> I wouldn't buy any watch I did not feel secure about, especially as I have been at this for less than a year.
> 
> Can you help us understand what is wrong with the silver pilot?
> It seems a redial with lighter than normal blue, but beyond that?
> 
> View attachment 13684607
> 
> 
> View attachment 13684613
> 
> 
> Now, looking at them one above the other, it seems the silver background looks pretty unoriginal as well.
> Crown is not right either.
> 
> As far as the hands and markers go . . . I would not be able to recognize whether they were an original variation, or else someone's imaginative interpretation of a vintage watch.
> I seem to be answering my own questions. ;-)
> ~ Joe


The top one is of course from Gallet's website, and it is a Valjoux 72. The bottom one is a Valjoux 7736, and yes with weird hands. That more 'bumpy' bezel is among the last Gallet created for this model, late 1970's.

I was told that the sliver dials were created for the Japanese market. I do know they are not too common. 
~D


----------



## DragonDan

Krogerfoot said:


> Here is a Flying Officer listed as having a Laderon 248 and being serviced last year. It comes with another woozy Swiss cross on the back and the usual claims of Swiss military issue. The hands look wrong to me. Bidding is currently under US$800.
> 
> View attachment 13692007


Thanks for catching this one KF, I'm seeing more L248-based watches these days. Honestly, it's possible that Gallet used the 248, but all of the legit late 1960's - 1970's Flight Officers have the L149. 
Was the 248 and 149 offered at the same time, production-wise? I had thought the 248 was an earlier creation.

I'll raise you a weirdo-handed FO, with an even weirder one that's on ebay now:


















Crown is wrong, all hands are wrong. That chrono bridge has definitely been shaved. The kerning is off with the Gallet & Co lettering. Plus, when did a 1970's watch not have a shock-protected balance wheel?
It is a Gallet case and bezel though.
~D


----------



## Krogerfoot

Here is another Gallet chrono on offer on Japan's Yahoo Auctions. While the previous one I posted about appears to have a very high reserve and the equivalent of a buy-it-now price of about US$3100, this non-Flying Officer model could be yours for about $1500.

The seller forthrightly says the watch might have been redialed, which seems likely to me given the thick Gallet logo. I don't have the expertise to judge much else, but the movement doesn't seem to have a Gallet signature or beveled openings for the jewels or screws.


----------



## DragonDan

KF, this one is legit. I own a similar model. It's among the last that Gallet produced in the 1970's. I see it as finding any way to reduce costs, no Gallet & Co. imprint on the caliber or sometimes not even the caseback, and the dial printing was definitely not their best work. 

I do prefer the exposed SS edge to the bezel on this, some of the Landeron 149-based Gallet models had a fully anodized bezel that just didn't look as cool as this one does to me.


----------



## Krogerfoot

Well, I was so curious about the watch, I bought it.


















































No signature on the movement and no serial number that I could find. The Gallet logo looks like it was done with White-Out but the rest of the dial looks crispy. The timer second hand could not be more orange. The pushers are stiff but work as advertised. The case is sharp enough to, well, set your watch by, and the bezel looks brand new (though it only seems to turn in one direction-is that a thing?). What did I get myself into here?

It was not easy with modern technology to get as lousy a photo of the caseback as I managed to do, but there it is.


----------



## DragonDan

I think you did well here KF, that is a clean example! 
I do agree though, it would have been nice for a bit cleaner printing, and the Gallet & Co. on the caliber.

My V7736 says Hi 

















Someone on the Vintage pages once said "when you're old enough to afford fine vintage chronographs, you won't be able to read them". This piece with it's comparatively tiny subdials makes me think of that


----------



## Krogerfoot

Thanks for your help, DD. Are unidirectional bezels a thing, or am I just being too dainty about turning mine counter-clockwise?


----------



## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> Thanks for your help, DD. Are unidirectional bezels a thing, or am I just being too dainty about turning mine counter-clockwise?


Which way does it turn? If it turns CCW, it could plausibly be a legit unidirectional bezel. If CW, then we can rule it out.


----------



## DragonDan

To my knowledge, Gallet never put out a unidirectional bezel. They are simple systems, with a C-shaped spring that both holds the bezel onto the case, and provides some resistance for smooth turning. 

I wonder if this spring has broken or a replacement that doesn't quite fit correctly? If you have a caseback knife, it is an easy proposition to pop it off and have a look


----------



## Krogerfoot

I made a more assertive effort to turn the bezel clockwise, and it definitely didn’t seem to want to go that way. I might try taking the bezel off and investigating this weekend.


----------



## DragonDan

I'm unsure about this one. It's a franken, but are they trying to sell it as a Breguet, or an Excelsior Park?



















Now there's nothing wrong with selling a pocketwatch conversion, it's labeled as such on the eBay auction. However ExPark never made movements for Breguet, they seemed to have accomplished that task pretty well by themselves.

By trying to pass off an ExPark as a Breguet, I call shenanigans.
Plus, who does a PW conversion and keeps the tether ring in place?


----------



## DragonDan

A quick posting before the end of year.

This one, while consisting of Gallet parts, is still a marriage. 









From a Japan ebay-er, it shows a 1950's dial/ square pushers, but it has an EP40-68 caliber. Those are generally accepted as being available circa 1968. Plus, it has that very seldom seen bare mainplate. 









I owned one of these calibers for a time. It seemed like a factory seconds? Fully functional, but not rhodium plated. I've only seen about three of these versions out there, all were EP40-68 calibers. It does make me wonder how these came to be offered.


----------



## DragonDan

I'll just leave this here....










A shame, really. I feel this is all original. Wonder if it got water damage at some point, necessitating a refinish on the dial.


----------



## Joe_A

I was about to put this one up as well.

I am no expert; merely an amateur, but the Gallet lettering cries out: "I've been redialed!"

The subdial hands may be painted white? Hard to tell as the photos are fuzzy and don't allow for close inspection.

In this day and age, a smartphone would take much better photos even by accident. ;-)


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## Tucayjordan

Another one:


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## Tucayjordan




----------



## WatchFred

shudder


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## Krogerfoot

This is a Multichron Regulator that I'm looking at. I'm mainly wondering if the single pusher is correct. I'm far from an expert, but I don't think I've seen this kind of dial with a single pusher.


----------



## DragonDan

Hi KF, this is correct, assuming it had the Gallet-branded Venus 140 caliber.
Honestly, I don't know much about the single-pusher models, they are not common at all.
I'm not even sure of the function, does the pusher only start/ reset?

The dial is correct, as well. These 1940's dials are notorious for not aging well, this example is right in line with others I've seen. That's why there are so many redials on this model. Even rarer would be a Decimal version. I've only seen those pop up maybe once a year, over the last decade or so.

Please see if the style will provide a movement photo. 

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


----------



## Krogerfoot

DragonDan said:


> I'm not even sure of the function, does the pusher only start/ reset?


Thanks for your reply. The Gallet World site says the single pusher is to start, stop, and reset the timer hand, with no pause function. The dial looks a lot older than I first thought while looking at the photos on my phone, so the age seems right to be a first-series Regulator.

The seller isn't willing to open the watch up for a movement photo. They identified the movement as a Venus 140, but they could have looked that up just like I did. The watch is not running, so it'll be a fixer-upper if I decide to get it, though I'm half hoping someone will outbid me now that I've fallen off the wagon again.


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## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> The watch is not running, so it'll be a fixer-upper if I decide to get it, though I'm half hoping someone will outbid me now that I've fallen off the wagon again.


I can understand your ambivalence. It's quite a rare movement, so it would be very cool to add it to your collection. On the other hand, it's quite a rare movement, so parts may not be easy to find.


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## Krogerfoot

The watch ended up selling for about $1200 on the Japanese Yahoo! Auction site. Not to me, thankfully, as that price is a bit extravagant for a non-functioning oddball watch, but I suspect from the description that it just needs a new mainspring. I am really thinking about getting back into reading novels as an economical hobby.


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## Dan S

Another pristine Flying Officer with Swiss Cross on back. Seems like bidders may be wising up about these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gallet-Fly...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


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## Joe_A

The unsigned movement which only vaguely approximates the look of a genuine movement . . . and the unsigned inner case back suggests "stay clear"as well.


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## Deen

This is in Bosnien, Croatian and Serbian all 3 languages spell it the same, I speak all of them so I know what I'm talking about. Never in my watch collecting life have I seen a manufacturer spell citys in different languages like on these dials. I'm 99% sure that these watches a Frankenstein's but I must say that they are good quality Frankenstein's. And I think they are made In Russia or Hungary. The engraving behind is made up. Best Regards


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## Dan S

Dan S said:


> Another pristine Flying Officer with Swiss Cross on back. Seems like bidders may be wising up about these.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gallet-Fly...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


Well, my hopes about wise buyers were premature, in the end someone paid over $1600 for this piece of $*!+.

When OOV claimed that she was selling a special NOS piece that had been stored in the Gallet President's safe for 50 years, it was unlikely, but perhaps plausible for gullible people drinking the Kool-aid about that seller. But now we have seen multiple examples of these perfect dials and sharp cases, with disturbingly white lume and wonky Swiss crosses on the back, coming from different places.

Does anyone still want to defend them as being legitimate? And if so, I would appreciate full disclosure ... please state explicitly whether or not you own one of them. Eventually they will be exposed, like the fake Fortis Marinemasters and the fake Polerouter Subs. Please don't muddy the waters by defending them.


----------



## Joe_A

For those who are interested in these watches, here is a link:

*Gallet Flying Officer*

Tenth style down the list . . .

According to the information from Gallet World, this watch was sized correctly at 36 mm and should have a Valjoux 7735 movement. The movement looks like a generic 773x movement to my unpracticed eye. I have not seen photos of any of these watches with a movement not signed by Gallet and the inside of the case back should have been signed as well. The dial looks like a modern reprint but without the texture in the subdials and the hands look like they were made yesterday.

I try and look at each piece one at a time, not tying one probable fake or franken necessarily to another, but it does seem like there are fake Flying Officers out there "on the loose" especially with hands that do not look correct and with some atypical spellings for the type. It's a bit of a mine field out there. 

Edit: To me, the prices on the Gallet World Website seem "optimistic;" they seem high so as to promote higher prices. I have some interest in these watches but I do not own one.


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## Hartmut Richter

Joe_A said:


> According to the information from Gallet World, this watch was sized correctly at 36 mm and should have a Valjoux 7735 movement.


Ah yes, the good ol' Valjoux 7735 - so rare in this family of otherwise common-as-dirt movements that even Dr. Ranfft hasn't been able to find one for his movement piccie collection.....! ;-)

Hartmut Richter


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## Krogerfoot

Deen said:


> This is in Bosnien, Croatian and Serbian all 3 languages spell it the same, I speak all of them so I know what I'm talking about. Never in my watch collecting life have I seen a manufacturer spell citys in different languages like on these dials.


We've puzzled over the odd collection of place names and spelling on Gallet FOs on this thread, but I think we've established that SAN FRANCISKO appeared early on. Gallet World's site shows that spelling on the dial of the "1st generation USAAF version" of the Flight Officer from 1939-1943. Of course, this page also features the fantastical values for vintage Gallet watches, so who knows what to believe.

Speaking of that-look for a solid gold FO to appear on eBay soon, in remarkable condition due to being stored away for most of its 70-plus years. The photos I saw were accompanied by the usual commentary about how these were special orders for elite military figures; the engraving on the pictured watch congratulated a longtime company employee.


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## Joe_A

Hartmut Richter said:


> Ah yes, the good ol' Valjoux 7735 - so rare in this family of otherwise common-as-dirt movements that even Dr. Ranfft hasn't been able to find one for his movement piccie collection.....! ;-)
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I'm relatively new around here Hartmut so, if there is humor in your post, it has gone over my head. Is the 7735 a myth? The watch we have been discussing seems to have an unremarkable 7734 in it and unsigned so probably a "put together" watch . . . or perhaps better to call it a fake.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Yes, most certainly - the movement is a Valjoux 7733 (possibly a 7730). The 7734 had a date feature and the 7736 an hour totaliser. The 7735 didn't actually exist. Somebody responsible for the link likely goofed - either when typing or, more sadly, at an earlier stage when conceiving the text in his brain!

Hartmut Richter


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## DragonDan

I have not heard of a V7735 (even though it's on the GW website). These late model FO's should have the venerable Landeron 149 caliber. 
Seeing that unsigned poljot was definitely strange. The case back is the worst engraving I've seen, and we know the original isn't great. The ones we've seen before this all had the brass bezel. First 3133 with a SS bezel. If these are fakes, they would have all been created in the early-mid 1970's. Why are they showing up now?
All of the post-Venus 150 caliber FO's have that funky spelling.

I have one of these cases, with the brass bezel, I've posted it here a while back. I purchased it from ebay about 2011 or so. It wasn't expensive, got it more for the curiosity.


----------



## kinaed

DragonDan said:


> I have not heard of a V7735 (even though it's on the GW website). These late model FO's should have the venerable Landeron 149 caliber.
> Seeing that unsigned poljot was definitely strange. The case back is the worst engraving I've seen, and we know the original isn't great. The ones we've seen before this all had the brass bezel. First 3133 with a SS bezel. If these are fakes, they would have all been created in the early-mid 1970's. Why are they showing up now?
> All of the post-Venus 150 caliber FO's have that funky spelling.
> 
> I have one of these cases, with the brass bezel, I've posted it here a while back. I purchased it from ebay about 2011 or so. It wasn't expensive, got it more for the curiosity.


Unsigned 3133's, particularly the gold-plated ones were most likely manufactured by Maktime after the dissolution of Poljot, and would have been made in the early 2000's.

-k


----------



## Krogerfoot

Krogerfoot said:


> Speaking of that-look for a solid gold FO to appear on eBay soon, in remarkable condition due to being stored away for most of its 70-plus years.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-GA...6?pageci=96cb1307-a405-4db3-a428-54050596dd7a

Nothing fishy about the item itself. There must be a story behind this specially inscribed gold watch and how it ended up going unworn for almost eighty years, but the sellers only provide the usual cut-and-paste puffery about the model's purported popularity with military bigwigs. Maybe it will be bought by a collector with more curiosity about this kind of thing.


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## Joe_A

So what do we think of this watch?

I have two reasons for asking.

I understand the seller enjoys a good reputation and he's got other items I find of interest.
The watch itself is beautiful to my eye, but I do not see one like it on the GW site.

Of course, the GW site does not include an example of every watch manufactured by Gallet.

The dial looks almost too good to be true for a 1945 watch, but the seller guaranties that the watch is all original.


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## DragonDan

Joe, this strikes me as a marriage watch. Beautiful is right, but a couple things. No inside caseback photo (should show Gallet & Co). The case looks chrome plated? The mainspring bridge shows a YXL import code, instead of JXR. I can't think of any other Gallet that used a movement ring. The dial looks repainted to me. Very well done, but something about the thickness of the subdial divisions, and the spacing of the Gallet serif logo seems off.

*edit, found a better example
This fully black dialed V170 was pretty rare, I've only one in my archives, and its not great. But it is original.


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## Joe_A

Thanks Dan,

The watch is listed on Chrono24 with additional photos. Yes, the inside case back is there and it does not indicate Gallet & Co. The case is indeed chrome over brass.

Here is how the description reads:

Original 1945 / 46 man's Gallet waterproof-style chronograph, in very good original condition, in proper working order and fitted with a very attractive black glossy dial
Ref. 174. The chromed case with round pushers and screw-in steel back measures 36.8 mm diameter, without counting the crown. The case is in good vintage condition, the chrome-plating shows some wear traces and overall it looks nice.
Original (unsigned) crown, the manual winding movement cal. Venus 170 has been professionaly timed and regulated and it runs strong. This watch runs well and keeps accurate time, the chrono functions start and reset flawlessly. This watch is delivered with our 6 months guarantee. The original black glossy silver gilt dial is in excellent condition, it shows only a very very light and even time patina.

Naturally, I want to believe the seller is accurately describing the watch, but like you I feel that the dial _almost_ "too good to be true," and the case back is unsigned. I am not sufficiently experienced to say anything more.


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## Joe_A

Time for another candidate, which again, interests me but troubles me. ;-)

Here we have what purports to be a Gallet Multichron 30M 1915 WW I chronograph:

View attachment 13980209


It is supposed to be this watch:









Is it? Or is it not?

The dial looks good to my eye.

The case appears to be a silver case.

The hands are correct and appear to be what one would expect had the lume not disappeared as in the example from GW

What about the movement?

The movement appears to be an unsigned Valjoux 22 GH and not a GHT.

I found another Gallet watch of the type and period and the movement was signed.

Does this watch have a replacement or "knockoff" replica movement?

As a novice, my purpose in posting is that I do have an interest in the watch if it is legit . . . and if not then this will be another learning experience.

EDIT: Item listed ended (3/17/19) by seller due to an error in the listing - according to Ebay.


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## DragonDan

odd that the listing ended. I have limited knowledge about pre-1920's Gallet pieces, but they were generally pretty good about signing the caliber itself.


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## Joe_A

So what do we think of this "Jim Clark" MC12H?









Setting aside the hands, the dial is in good shape and the lugs look a bit polished, but not so much so that the chamfer is missing from the bevel.

It looks as though the dial may have been replaced at some point with a genuine dial. It's hard to know otherwise how the hands could have degraded to the point seen with the dial being in such good condition.

Anyone who would buy a watch like this one to enjoy would probably have the hands redone tastefully with aged Superluminova and one would have a handsome watch.

Let's flip it over, shall we?









To my limited knowledge . . . and according to what we see at the Gallet World site, with this dial and with the "H" case, we should see an EP40 and not the EP40-68.

So has this watch had a movement swap-out to the EP40-68 or is the movement original?

Cheers,

Joe


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## DragonDan

I'm leaning towards a factory service with dial and movement swap. "patina" so severe on the hour/ minute/ central seconds hand should speak to similar damage throughout. I can double check, but pretty sure I've seen 40-68 movements in the H cases.

The caliber is the more rare cotes de geneve stripes version, which is just fabulous. Always wondered why they offered such a beautiful movement, and then covered it up...


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## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> I'm leaning towards a factory service with dial and movement swap.


Why in the world didn't they replace the hands?


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## Dan S

For sale on another forum, a Valjoux 72 MC12. The case is amazing, and the dial isn't too bad, but how hard would it be to find the right hands for this?


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## kazrich

They were offered with either Valjoiux 72 or EP 40-68.
Here's mine with EP 40-68 and 'H' ( top left )


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## Dan S

Beautiful piece @kazrich, thanks for posting, the lume has aged to a really nice color. I'm not concerned about the Valjoux 72 (although honestly I would prefer the EP, for some variety in my collection), but surely the sweep hand and sub-dial hands are not correct on the watch that I posted.


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## kazrich

Dan S said:


> Beautiful piece @kazrich, thanks for posting, the lume has aged to a really nice color. I'm not concerned about the Valjoux 72 (although honestly I would prefer the EP, for some variety in my collection), but surely the sweep hand and sub-dial hands are not correct on the watch that I posted.


Agreed on both points Dan. The sweep seconds hand should be longer and
curved at it's tip finishing deep into the ' base ' indicator.
The example that you posted has shorter fat 'seconds' and 'sub dial' hands.
It's difficult to photo these watches because, depending on the light the subdials
can end up looking black, white or mismatched - when they're not.
This was my first and one of my favourite vintage watches. It was allegedly serviced at Gallet 
a year before I purchased it. Apparently they lightly cleaned the dial but decided not to relume
preferring to chemically stabilize minor rust on the hour hand and partly around the lume.
Of course it's very difficult to see with human eye when on the wrist. Looks like they did a good job
because it looks the same as when I bought it 6 years ago.


----------



## Joe_A

DragonDan said:


> I'm leaning towards a factory service with dial and movement swap. "patina" so severe on the hour/ minute/ central seconds hand should speak to similar damage throughout. I can double check, but pretty sure I've seen 40-68 movements in the H cases.
> 
> The caliber is the more rare cotes de geneve stripes version, which is just fabulous. Always wondered why they offered such a beautiful movement, and then covered it up...


I've been studying these particular MC12s for a while now and yes, I have seen some with the EP40-68 movement, but what I haven't found in the short time I have been following these watches (about a year,) is the "Jim Clark" model with the telemeter and tachymetre scales with the EP40-68 movement. They are often found with the EP40, or else the Valjoux 72. One can recognize the difference on the dial by the seconds and minutes counter subdials impinging upon the telemeter scale in the case of the Val. 72 models and falling within the scale on the EP watches.

For some reason, Kazrich's watch is not showing up for me.

Cheers,

Joe

My MC12 EP40-68 is already in this thread, but here it is again. 









Edit: I can now see Kazrich's JC MC12 w/EP40-68. Beautiful watch!


----------



## Dan S

kazrich said:


> Agreed on both points Dan. The sweep seconds hand should be longer and
> curved at it's tip finishing deep into the ' base ' indicator.


The thing that jumped out at me was the open lollipop tip of the other end of the sweep hand.


----------



## kazrich

Joe; 
That's a nice Multichron 12. Looks like early 40's with Valjoux 71 ?
Here's a guide to difference's between Excelsior Park 40 - 68 and Valjoux 72 versions.
Could be some variations but most are as follows.


EP Sub dials sit inside the telemeter track. Val 72 Sub dials overlap the edge of the telemeter track


EP Gallet dial branding smaller and in capital letters. Val 72 Gallet dial branding bigger and varies 


EP When lying face down, the left hand lug is engraved ' H '. Val 72 not engraved ' H ' on back of the lug


EP Seconds hand curves with the crystal and extends to the edge of the dial . Val 72 Seconds hand is slightly shorter


EP ' Swiss ' central above the 6 o clock register . Val 72 ' T ' Swiss ' T ' at the dial edge at 6 o clock 

EP Pushers are equidistant from the crown. Val 72 Pushers not equidistant from the crown


----------



## Joe_A

Here's another that just popped up on Ebay today . . .









I'm not sure whether the Gallet S/Ns tell us anything to a certainty, but this 961598 seems like a late S/N as one may expect given the dial signature.

The lighting exaggerates the green lume, but the watch does have fairly typical mint lume.

Here is a shot from the seller of the same watch in a photo next to the only other photo I have seen of a watch like mine:









In addition to the watch I put up yesterday and the watch that Kazrich owns, this one too has an EP40-68 movement.









So . . .

It appears as though apart from the Valjoux 72 version, these watches were manufactured often with the EP40 movement and perhaps a bit less often using the EP40-68 movement.

Things to notice?

On the EP-40 or EP40-68 watches, the central circle on the hours counter is typically larger in diameter than the other two. Here we have a seconds counter smaller as expected, but the hours and the minutes counter centers seem larger. Also, the central seconds hand seems a bit short and does not appear to have typical curvature. (As would be the case for a V.72 version.) These two observations may or may not mean anything with a later Gallet by Racine branding.

Also, while the lugs are lightly polished, they do not have triangular chamfers on the bevel or small straight parallel line chamfers on the bevel. I am on the verge of concluding that some cases used by Gallet may have lacked these additional facets.

Edit: Kazrich just reminded me that we are missing the "H" on this one as well.

Draw your own conclusions. ;-)


----------



## kazrich

Joe , I had to edit my previous post because for some reason the post preview bears no relationship to the actual post.
I find posting on this site crude and clunky - it seems to have a mind of it's own unless posting a quick reply.
Most 37 mm Jim Clark MC12's ( if not all ) are either Val 72 or EP 40-68. I've never seen one with EP4.


----------



## Joe_A

kazrich said:


> Joe;
> That's a nice Multichron 12. Looks like early 40's with Valjoux 71 ?
> Here's a guide to difference's between Excelsior Park 40 - 68 and Valjoux 72 versions.
> Could be some variations but most are as follows.


<snip>

Details of my MC-12H sans tele-tachy scales have been put up in the Excelsior Park thread, but I don't see the harm in repeating here?

It's a 1966-1968-ish EP40-68 as near as I can guess date-wise . . .

































Alas it has not been in my possession for about two months. The minutes counter was sticking, the amplitude was a bit on the low side, and the beat error was 3-ish. I sent it to Gallet for service knowing that it could take quite a long time to get it back. Some have suggested I am foolish for not simply giving it over to a local watchmaker, but the decision has been made. ;-)


----------



## Joe_A

kazrich said:


> Joe , I had to edit my previous post because for some reason the post preview bears no relationship to the actual post.
> I find posting on this site crude and clunky - it seems to have a mind of it's own unless posting a quick reply.
> Most 37 mm Jim Clark MC12's ( if not all ) are either Val 72 or EP 40-68. I've never seen one with EP4.


If I stated EP-4, that's a typo.

EP-4 and EP4-68 are two-register movements.

EP40 and EP40-68 are the three-register variants with the "dash 68" signaling a higher accuracy and higher quality movement, or so I have been informed. The "68" has no connection to the year 1968.

Edit: I stated it correctly previously.

Sometimes people refer to the EP4 and EP4-68 as EP04 and EP04-68. I'm not sure that helps. ;-)

Edit x 2: Here is an example of a similar watch (not in good condition) where the movement is an EP40 and not an EP40-68:

*RARE Oversized Gallet EP40 Chronograph Jim Clark*

Older S/N 938932

The EP40 version is unmarked or not stamped as such, whereas the EP40-68 has the movement reference stamped.


----------



## kazrich

Hi Joe ;
Apologies, Right enough I confused your EP40 with EP4. Looks like Gallet World has updated their site since I last looked at it.
I don't remember them or anyone else ever stating that EP40-68 was a ' special accuracy upgrade ' for the MC12 ?
They are still claiming ' Add for superior Excelsior Park movement $ 300- 500 '.
Unfortunately the Gallet ' Jim Clark ' specifications are similar to the Enicar Sherpa Graph ' Jim Clark ' in that
they appear to have made minor changes over the duration of the model. So it's difficult to be 100% sure about dates and specs.
I'm not convinced that Gallet World know significantly more about Gallet than anyone else. For the last 6 years so many pages are ' being updated '
Does anyone know how successful the new Jim Clark Gallet model is doing ?


----------



## Joe_A

kazrich said:


> Hi Joe ;
> Apologies, Right enough I confused your EP40 with EP4. Looks like Gallet World has updated their site since I last looked at it.
> I don't remember them or anyone else ever stating that EP40-68 was a ' special accuracy upgrade ' for the MC12 ?
> They are still claiming ' Add for superior Excelsior Park movement $ 300- 500 '.
> Unfortunately the Gallet ' Jim Clark ' specifications are similar to the Enicar Sherpa Graph ' Jim Clark ' in that
> they appear to have made minor changes over the duration of the model. So it's difficult to be 100% sure about dates and specs.
> I'm not convinced that Gallet World know significantly more about Gallet than anyone else. For the last 6 years so many pages are ' being updated '
> Does anyone know how successful the new Jim Clark Gallet model is doing ?


There is a fair bit of information right here at WUS in the 42-page thread:

*Excelsior Park*

I reread these threads from start to finish now and then, but not today. ;-)

A quick peek inside reminded me that you have participated in the thread as well.

How about this for another variation from a French language site:









It's a bit challenging to pull the info together as one may find interesting tidbits in a Zenith thread or a Girard Perregaux thread just to name two places.

Short anecdote . . .

Before I sent my MC-12 to Gallet, I noted that their receiving address was a Fed-Ex depot address. I wondered whether Gallet repair was so small an entity that they didn't receive 'at home,' so I rang them up. Turns out that they are located in an industrial park and no matter how many times they have requested that Fed-Ex not leave packages on the doorstep unsigned for, Gallet staff continued to find packages left unattended each week. To mitigate potential loss, they eventually requested that Fed-Ex hold the packages at the depot. The packages are now picked up once or twice a week.

In speaking with one of the watchmakers, Larry, he asked whether my watch was an EP40 or EP40-68 watch. When I told him it was the latter, he had me on the phone for half an hour extolling the virtues of the EP40-68. The fellow was quite enthusiastic and I like that in a watchmaker.

As far as the new Jim Clark watches go, according to what I have seen on the David Laurence run Facebook page, there is either just 6 or 8 remaining out of a production run of 500. I've been tempted, but I have not yet succumbed.

BTW, I was the successful bidder on the MC-12 EP40-68 with the discolored hands. Hopefully I will see it in a few days. This thread allowed me to overcome my hesitation. Learning that the watch was produced with the EP40-68 prompted me to set aside concerns as to whether the movement was original or not. The dial is obviously an O.E.M. dial even if service replaced. I plan on having the hands restored and it should turn out to be a handsome watch priced at a level where I would not lose money if or when I offer it up for sale one day.

Cheers,

Joe

*Edit*: Here is a thread where serial numbers are discussed:

*Excelsior Park Serial Numbers*

*2nd Edit:* In another thread I noted that Roland Ranfft mentions that a difference between the EP40 and EP40-68 is that the EP40-68 has a mobile stud carrier whereas the EP40 has a fixed stud carrier. I then confirmed the observation by examining images of the various movements. It's a lot easier to adjust the beat error of a movement with a mobile stud carrier in my limited experience in so doing than it is messing about with springs and collets with a fixed stud carrier.

I assume the difference above carries over from the EP4 and the EP4-68 as well.

I am drifting too far afield from the original scope of this thread, so I'll stop right here.


----------



## kazrich

Well done Joe ! That looks like a decent buy. As actual watches often look better than advertised photo's you might be pleasantly surprised
when it arrives. On the wrist the hands might just give it a nice vintage look. They might just clean up with a swab of alcohol ( the watch hands, not you ).
It could be rust coming from the metal surrounding that's spread onto the lume. Either way a relatively quick fix.
Pleased to hear that the new Jim Clark has nearly sold out. Not one for me, but the specs are epic.


----------



## DragonDan

You nailed the description very well on the 'dashed' movements. The only real difference is the movable stud on the balance. An important one, but I couldn't find anything else modded/ upgraded/ changed on the caliber. It was Dr Ranfft that informed me of this as well.
~D



Joe_A said:


> In another thread I noted that Roland Ranfft mentions that a difference between the EP40 and EP40-68 is that the EP40-68 has a mobile stud carrier whereas the EP40 has a fixed stud carrier. I then confirmed the observation by examining images of the various movements. It's a lot easier to adjust the beat error of a movement with a mobile stud carrier in my limited experience in so doing than it is messing about with springs and collets with a fixed stud carrier.
> 
> I assume the difference above carries over from the EP4 and the EP4-68 as well.


----------



## Joe_A

DragonDan said:


> You nailed the description very well on the 'dashed' movements. The only real difference is the movable stud on the balance. An important one, but I couldn't find anything else modded/ upgraded/ changed on the caliber. It was Dr Ranfft that informed me of this as well.
> ~D


At some point I will call down to Gallet service in Georgia to check on my watch. When I do, I will request more information on the movements.

When I spoke with Larry in January, if he had spoken about a mobile stud carrier, I would have assumed he was describing a limousine used to transport male rock stars or athletes. ;-)

I've only been at this hobby a little over a year and it was not until I did some reading, purchased a timegrapher . . . and began learning to regulate and adjust for two to three positions that I'd have understood methods of adjusting the beat error and the relative ease in so doing when a mobile stud carrier is present.

This was your thread, Dan, where Dr. Ranfft made his contribution:

*Differences in Excelsior Park/ Gallet mov'ts*

I remember also reading in the *Excelsior Park* thread that there was some controversy as to whether the 68 in the "dash 68" indicated the movement was introduced in 1968. After reading start to finish, it seems that the "dash 68" movements were introduced earlier, some suggesting even before 1960.


----------



## DragonDan

it was probably me that proposed that the -68 was introduced in 1968. It made sense to me, based on what I knew at the time. However with more research, it was definitely released earlier than that.

The earliest -68 caliber I have in my serial number archives is from 1964. A very nice Jim Clark model


----------



## kazrich

DragonDan said:


> it was probably me that proposed that the -68 was introduced in 1968. It made sense to me, based on what I knew at the time. However with more research, it was definitely released earlier than that.
> 
> The earliest -68 caliber I have in my serial number archives is from 1964. A very nice Jim Clark model


That ' Jim Clark ' has flat chrono pushers. Most are round.


----------



## DragonDan

Very true KR, I suppose the most accepted Jim Clark model would be at earliest 1965, when he won the Indianapolis 500 race. 

These flat pushers were still in use up to circa 1965, so it should be possible to see a true flat pusher JC Multichron 12.


----------



## Joe_A

DD & KR,

My newly acquired MC12H "Jim Clark" arrived yesterday and at first I was pleased. Afterward I was feeling a bit let down . . . and now I'm pleased again. So go the emotions of a certifiable watch nut. ;-)

I'll explain in a bit . . .

In here we've discussed that the EP40-68 differs from the EP40 in the "dash 68" having a mobile stud carrier which, as most in here will know, allows one to adjust the regulator while readjusting the m.s.c. to keep the beat error rate down to well below 0.5 in all positions when the watch movement is in good condition.

In a dialog with David Laurence over at the Gallet Facebook page, David added that the "dash 68" uses a much lower mass balance wheel which in itself is better balanced. I would assume that the claim of greater precision for the EP4-68 and EP40-68 stems from the lower mass balance wheel coupled with a better opportunity to keep the beat error rate low. So less wear, better symetry and better regulation overall.

Changing gears . . .

When my watch showed up, I saw that the hands are original as expected and that the dial was an O.E.M replacement dial as expected . . . a thing with which I can easily live.

After looking at the watch more closely, I could not discern any of those concentric ridges one would expect to see on an O.E.M. Gallet dial for each of the three subdials. I began to worry that I had a third-party dial which would render the watch less desireable. At this point I thought I was probably returning the watch to the seller.

Heading on over the Gallet Facebook residence, a dialog developed where I became once again assured that what I have on this watch is an O.E.M dial that was replaced some time ago, probably after some moisture damage to the original. The cooncentric ridges are more pronounced on the other watch because the stamping is a bit deeper and the dial has higher luster - less satin, if you will.

Under the right lighting conditions, those concentric ridges are visible, even to an old-timer . . .

. . . And the lume under UV light decays at a rapid rate comparable to my other MC12.

Once the central hands are restored and the crystal is polished, it'll be a good value for the dollars spent.

My thanks to DragonDan who participated in the FB discussion as well.









The above is not a very flattering photo, but I ask you . . . would any of us want to see our own faces up this close?


----------



## Krogerfoot

I'm curious about the first-generation Flight Officer pictured on the Gallet World site. Specifically, the font used for the city names seems too modern to date from the late 1930s. "BUENOS AIRES" in particular caught my eye. It looks like Helvetica, which was developed in the late 50s.









In comparison, a (possibly) one-off variant design pictured on the Gallet World Facebook page looks appropriate for its vintage.









The top watch is in fact described by the site as being Harry Truman's personal watch, housed in his presidential library in Independence, Missouri. I wonder if the dial is a replacement, or if the watch is a replica.


----------



## DragonDan

This Truman model is a redial. It's on loan to one of the big museums, I believe it's the Fondation Haute Horlogerie in La Chauex-de-Fonds. Good catch about the font. Honestly, most other Gallet V150-based watches have dials that didn't age well. Think of the 'snail tachymeter' models you've no doubt seen.

I do know that the actual HT V150 Flight Officer is in the NAWCC museum in PA. If I recall, when they got it, it was in poor shape. I did hear that one of the onsite teachers made a replacement bezel, because the original one was long gone. 









Thinking about it more, this HT model is actually the first custom-city dial. It has Djask at noon, instead of New York/ Singapore. So that makes the Midway/ Bikini Islands watch the second known custom cities dial.


----------



## Krogerfoot

From the Duluth office of Gallet, another interesting watch.







These 24-hour-dialed watches are a favorite of mine, and the case really is in good condition for a chromed watch. The description offers fictitious speculative details ("Possibly issued to an officer during the Vietnam War") standing in for information the sellers are pretending not to know. At (currently) $1300, it's fairly expensive, though a bargain compared to the fanciful amount the sellers claim it's worth. Luckily for buyers, Gallet watches seem to be getting cheaper every day.


----------



## Krogerfoot

A fascinating story: The secret operational name of an upcoming US military action in the Persian Gulf was somehow divulged to a Swiss supplier, who blithely printed it on its watch prototype. Watches with "Desert Storm" on the face have usually been deemed obvious fakes, but here we have the official Gallet narrative that some of them are in fact genuine.









I don't know if the US government has a "war department," but the National Watch and Clock Museum does indeed have one of these on display, apparently donated by Gallet USA. Perhaps a genuine Marathon Desert Storm prototype will be appearing on eBay in the near future.


----------



## DragonDan

I have one of these, with a similar name. purchased on these fine pages probably a decade ago.










About five years ago there were some fakes running around ebay. The seller black-painted over the ANDAC/ Marathon/ whatever and put the Desert Storm lettering. These were easily discovered, because of the new paint on old dials, usually a pronounced black rectangle. Also any of these navigator pieces that have a mechanical movement are also fakes. the .GOV only wanted quartz.


----------



## DragonDan

Damn, I don't think they are really trying with this one. Italian seller, no V150 movement photo, crayon redial


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## pantelis25

Guys i am honestly struggling to understand dealers pricing on some vintage pieces....... i think someone has to put an end on this madness.....

https://www.chrono24.com/gallet/multichron-yachting-vintage-chronograph--id11167820.htm


----------



## Joe_A

pantelis25 said:


> Guys i am honestly struggling to understand dealers pricing on some vintage pieces....... i think someone has to put an end on this madness.....
> 
> https://www.chrono24.com/gallet/multichron-yachting-vintage-chronograph--id11167820.htm


I saw one of these sell for $7,500 a year or so ago.

Just last week, a more rare Excelsior Park version sold for 9,000 USD. This one:









[This was discussed in the Excelsior Park thread here.]

It would surprise me to learn that the Shuck-the-Oyster folks did not see this auction and decide: "If $9K is OK, why not try for $10K?

I'd like to add this model to my collection, but not at near that price.

It only takes one individual willing to purchase the watch at such a price to validate the price in the eyes of dealers I would suppose.

Madness? Maybe; maybe not. ;-)

~Joe

Edit: The EP version above is more rare and houses the EP4-68 movement with light-weight balance and mobile stud carrier. The one StO has listed @ Chrono24 is a Gallet with less valued EP4 movement. <shrug>

Is there anything about collecting vintage watches that is rational?

Why is a Daytona valued at perhaps 100K and a Heuer 2446 valued at 25K or half that with a snap-on compressor back, an Enicar at 8 or 9K and a close equivalent Croton/Nivada valued at 3.5K all with esentially the same Valjoux 72 movement and similar case, dial and hand qualities? There is very little that is sane about vintage watch collecting. ;-)

* Of course, if Paul Newman wore the Daytona then its worth 17 million USD.


----------



## crazyeighty8

Hi, I picked this watch up at auction, all I know is it was listed as a #9204. Can anyone tell me about it?


----------



## Dan S

crazyeighty8 said:


> Hi, I picked this watch up at auction, all I know is it was listed as a #9204. Can anyone tell me about it?


Was this from the Ukraine, by any chance?


----------



## crazyeighty8

No from the UK. I am guessing I was right to ask in the possible fakes thread


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## Dan S

crazyeighty8 said:


> No from the UK. I am guessing I was right to ask in the possible fakes thread


It reminds me a lot of the watches made by Wandolec. Sometimes they have some element of the original brand, but the watches are mostly just fantasy pieces.


----------



## DragonDan

A fanciful version of a flight officer. The movement seems pieced together, and a "waterproof" case. Gallet & Co chrono bridge looks proper, but the balance bridge is not JXR.

My biggest question, how did they fit a Venus 150 dial (which is in great condition, by the way) onto a Venus 188 caliber?


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Oh, that shouldn't be difficult if the dial feet are in the same position on both movements (plus some other, minor features - on a chronograph, probably most importantly the exact positioning of the subdial hands). However, since the Venus 150 is 13''' and the Venus 188 is 14''', I am somewhat puzzled myself.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## DragonDan

*Re: Gallet & Co. crosscheck of possible fakes/ frankens*

Thanks Hartmut. I have not looked at the technical drawings closely enough. Always felt each chrono had different subdial spacing. That's why it seemed so odd to me.

As for feet, the unscrupulous tinkerer could just snip them off and use sticky pads....

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


----------



## Krogerfoot

Here is an MC45(?), if that's what they call it, for domestic sale only on Yahoo! Auctions Japan. It has a charming inscription on the back and is purported to be in good running condition. 
GALLET ギャレット 名品エクセルシオパークCal.4搭載2レジスタークロノグラフ コラムホイール 45分計 1950年代製 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/j557479242


----------



## DragonDan

That looks fine to me, other than missing hold-down screws. It's a MultiChron 45, because the 3 o-clock subdial can record up to 45 minutes. 
I wonder how that dial came to be so brown. Maybe a bad batch of clear overcoat? There is a spot at 5 that looks cleaner, maybe this dial can be cleaned up. It's not bad as is


----------



## Joe_A

This one, also from a Japanese seller, is over at Chrono24:









Seems to me the color change to yellow ocre is similar.

This one seems to be heading in a similar direction:









And finally, this one over on Ebay has gone way too far for my tastes:

View attachment 14191363


Cheers,

Joe


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## Hartmut Richter

Maybe the brown colour is really from the crystal? Although in the last one, it's not uniform enough for that.

Hartmut Richter


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## pantelis25

Hi there, is the below a franken? It seems that the case is wrong.....

FS: Gallet MultiChron 24 Hour vintage chrono (REDUCED PRICE)


----------



## laikrodukas

does not matter, it's from fantasy vietnam veteran estate


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## Joe_A

pantelis25 said:


> Hi there, is the below a franken? It seems that the case is wrong.....
> 
> FS: Gallet MultiChron 24 Hour vintage chrono (REDUCED PRICE)


Case seems OK. I'd like to see the inside of the case back.

It looks legit and the model did use the 24H version of the EP-4-68 movement.

See here:

Gallet Multichron 24H

Second one down but with red central seconds as indicated was available.

Ignore valuations on the Gallet site pages or at least divide the dollar amount by 2 and you'll have a bit better estimate.


----------



## pantelis25

Well i might be wrong but i have never seen such a case (with no chamfers) housing an excelsior park for Gallet.
I suppose that the example is the same as the first example in Gallet Chronograph Watch - MultiChron 45 Chronograph (i eliminate the second one cause i have the same and case does not look like the example in question).
If yes then should be like this 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GA...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## Joe_A

pantelis25 said:


> Well i might be wrong but i have never seen such a case (with no chamfers) housing an excelsior park for Gallet.
> I suppose that the example is the same as the first example in Gallet Chronograph Watch -. MultiChron 45 Chronograph (i eliminate the second one cause i have the same and case does not look like the example in question).
> If yes then should be like this
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GA...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


Here's one listed at Chono24:









The 24-hour versions shown on the Gallet World site appear not to have chamfers. If you go through this thread and the Excelsior Park thread, you will find additional examples.


----------



## pantelis25

Buddy this is a valjoux later version and actually a 35mm one. I am talking about EP 37mm.
I already own one example and sent the pic of another one showing how different they are (case with chamfers).
The big question now goes to any of the most experienced (DragonDan, Tucayjordan and all others please we need your help there) has the 
EP example ever used that case with no chamfers?


----------



## Joe_A

pantelis25 said:


> Buddy this is a valjoux later version and actually a 35mm one. I am talking about EP 37mm.
> I already own one example and sent the pic of another one showing how different they are (case with chamfers).
> The big question now goes to any of the most experienced (DragonDan, Tucayjordan and all others please we need your help there) has the
> EP example ever used that case with no chamfers?


Sorry about the non-EP example. Did you not go to the Gallet World site, link above?

I have seen three types of lugs used with EP movements: lugs with double bevels-only; lugs with parallel edge chamfers on a beveled edge and less often, lugs with single bevels.

But let's encourage the more knowledgeable among us to weight in.

Here's a suggestion: Join the Gallet FB page and ask there. You will find Dan in attendance as well as David Laurence.


----------



## DragonDan

Sorry, I was on vacation for the last 10 or so days. let me look through my archives, and see what I can find out. It's a good question, but I do now the non-chamfered case was not used much.



pantelis25 said:


> The big question now {edit.. has the EP example ever used that case with no chamfers?


----------



## DragonDan

Okay, after looking at something like 658 EP4x cases, the answer is no. None of the Excelsior Park EP4/ EP4-68/ EP40/ EP40-68 calibers have non-chamfered cases. It's a bit interesting to see the variations, some with pronounced facets, some with simple chamfers. A couple examples, just for fun:

An early example, big facet









A newer EP40-68, simpler chamfers









An older EP4. I feel this is about as untouched as is possible









An EP Yachting, huge facets


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## pantelis25

Thanks Dan i knew that something was wrong with that watch!


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## Joe_A

I've learned to look more carefully before I "leap."

I spent some time as well looking to find other examples of Gallet EP watches without the chamfer on the lugs and could not find any unpolished examples though I did not review so many as you did Dan.

One lives and one learns.


----------



## Tucayjordan

pantelis25 said:


> Hi there, is the below a franken? It seems that the case is wrong.....
> 
> FS: Gallet MultiChron 24 Hour vintage chrono (REDUCED PRICE)


I´m sorry to be soooo late but this Gallet is 100% correct. I own one. It assembles an EP4-68 (obviously modified to 24H). This picture is from a 1972 Gallet catalog. If I am not wrong they were assembled in cases with a Racine engravement instead of Gallet. *J*ules *R*acine was the importer (JRX) and distributor in the USA of Gallet watches.


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## Joe_A

I understand that an issue raised has to do with whether the case is genuine or not, as it lacks the typical chamfered edge.

This photo of the watch under review is telling, at least to my eye:









Most edges on this watch have normal wear-polishing evident. This particular photo appears to show that the outer edge of the case has been machined or re-machined and then not polished. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the case is original, but that it may have been subjected to having a new outer edge cut and in the process, a chamfer, if any was there originally, was removed along with the "extra" metal.

If I wanted the watch under review, I'd buy it and I'd buff the machined edge. I'm not troubled over whether it has a chamfer on the edge or not. The price in not out of line and a chamfer can be added, if desired.

Changing gears a bit . . .

Over the space of about two years, I have seen knowledgeable people appearing to be pretty sure of something, until they weren't.

One example had to do with the diameter of the hour counter on an MC12H, EP40. Some said a particular watch could not be genuine because the diameter of the pointer on the hours counter was larger than the diameter of the pointers on the seconds and minutes subdials. Turns out that, the center circles are typically the same diameter for the V.72 version, but the center diameter for the hours counter for EP40 versions were nearly always larger in diameter as shown here:

















Does this mean that, if someone finds an EP40 version with all three diameters the same that the watch must be a franken? Maybe, but maybe not. ;-)

In reviewing the Excelsior Park thread, I have seen one or two examples of EP movement cases which may lack chamfers, _may_ being the operative word.

But, for what it may be worth coming from me, I defer to Dan on this issue as well as it is clear that very few _if any_ Gallet EP40 watches lacked parallel edge chamfers.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## Tucayjordan

In this specific example the case has not been machined, it is a totally different case. It is even thicker than the "normal" one. And the crown is the same than the one used in the other case type of Gallet with EP4-68 with 24 h dials and rotating bezels.


----------



## Joe_A

I love exchanges like this as we each and all have an opportunity to learn.

Question: Does the MC12H (EP40) top left image have chamfers on the case edge or does that case lack chamfers?

Thank you, Tucayjordan.

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: It looks like it has very small parallel chamfers.


----------



## Tucayjordan

Yes Joe_A, you are right, the Gallet with EP40 has small parallel chamfers. I also learn a lot in this forum with the comments, pictures and questions of Gallet aficionados from all over the world. It is very interesting and stimulating. Thanks to you Joe_A


----------



## pantelis25

Tucayjordan said:


> In this specific example the case has not been machined, it is a totally different case. It is even thicker than the "normal" one. And the crown is the same than the one used in the other case type of Gallet with EP4-68 with 24 h dials.
> 
> I understand that in dial and movement this might be correct BUT the big question is if Gallet or Racine has ever used this type of case? Personally i have never seen this kind of case on a Gallet or Racine watch!


----------



## Tucayjordan

I have seen examples with the *usual EP cases.
*















I have seen at least 3 Gallet with EP4 and 24 hours dials with these *specific thicker cases.*
















And also *cases with rotating bezels.*


----------



## pantelis25

Tucayjordan said:


> I have seen also examples with the usual EP cases.
> 
> I have seen at least 3 Gallet with EP4 and 24 hours dials with this specific thicker case.
> 
> And I have seen also examples with the usual EP cases. And also with the cases with rotating bezels.


Thanks a lot Tucayjordan for responding


----------



## renton123

hey guys! im new to this group. came across this big thread on gallet which is timely. i was thinking about this watch which got sold. 
anyone here can chime in on its authenticity>? cheers

www [DOT] ebay [DOT] com [DOT] sg/itm/GALLET-TRIPLE-DATE-CALENDAR-CHRONOGRAPH-1960-s/173927349245?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2748.l2649


----------



## pantelis25

You mean this i guess

https://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/GALLET-...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid =p2057872.m2748.l2649


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## DragonDan

Looks good to me, a fine example except for some ghosting of the day numerals on the outside of the dial.

Those day/ date pushers always get banged up


----------



## MoreWatches

I picked this up on my birthday, maybe it's meant to be a present to myself and I'll have to keep it awhile! The large size wears nicely on my wrist.

It appears all original and as found. It has the EP4-68 movement. I don't think I want to touch the movement, certainly beyond my comfort level right now.


----------



## DragonDan

Very nice, MW. Certainly not a fake here, looks all good to me


----------



## MoreWatches

Thanks, DD, I'm glad to hear it looks original!


----------



## DragonDan

Here's a definite marriage watch from the 'bay. Shame, because the R72 is one of my all time favorite calibers. Many things wrong on this one.
Redial, first and foremost
Hands wrong
Subdials printed strangely
Serif font for the GALLET logo was discontinued in the early 1940's

















Is it just me, or does not putting back movement hold-down screws speak volumes about the quality of the 'watchmaker'?
I'm certain the chrono bridge is a newly manufactured one. I don't think it is a shaved piece.
No JXR on the balance bridge, and a non-incabloc balance in a 1970's -ish case?
It is probably a Gallet case, though. Doubt the remainder of the parts are Gallet.
Just in general, the colors of the various pieces are all over the place.

Your thoughts? Anything I missed on this one?


----------



## Joe_A

Perhaps the hold-down screw through-holes of this early movement do not line up with the tapped holes on the case?

I spotted this one and couple of additional offerings on Ebay lately that do not look right to my eye, but I have less experience than many here and I do not generally post when I am not interested in the piece.

Are these central hours and minutes hands correct for any late model "Jim Clark" MC12, Valjoux 72:









Here is an unusual reverse panda MC12 with EP40 movement, pre 1968, but with light balance wheel and mobile stud carrier:









Sometimes the original lume looks a bit sloppy in its application, but this is worse than usual! 

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## kazrich

My thoughts on both examples are










Orrible

Top
Not seen hands that are half lumed and why is the 2 in 12 crashing into the one ?
Is that a white arrow head on the seconds hand ?

Beneath. Reverse Panda.
They used so much lume on the hour registers that they ran out and lumed the hour and minute
hands in peppermint green.
Again the 2 in 12 crashes into the one. What a mess !
Lume should look more like this


----------



## Joe_A

I guess that I am more subtle than you are, Rich. ;-)

Both watches are among those that can be found currently on Ebay where additional photos are available.

I have not seen anything quite like either of those two. The hands used on the Jim Clark, I have seen on 773x pilot watch.

The second watch is just ugly, even if Gallet may have produced a reverse panda version of the "Jim Clark." The lume is slathered on the indices as if applied with a pallet knife. I have seen lume color mismatches that are dramatic, but this contrast hurts the eyes and offends the sensibilities.

Cheers,

Joe


----------



## DragonDan

You think those are bad, have a look at this:


















I think this one takes the cake for the kitchen sink approach.
I must say though, that V150 dial looks great. Almost worth it to buy the piece just for that dial. ~if they didn't clip off the dial legs

random 1970's case
Venus 188 caliber
weirdo hands


----------



## Joe_A

This watch may be in the running for most ridiculous Gallet impersonator?

Over at The Bay:









The 45M watches described over at Gallet World are all 37.5 mm while this is a 36 mm.

Lugs seem wrong
Entire case is wrong
Stem is wrong
Hands appear wrong - similar central hours and minutes have been used on other Gallet watches and so has the seconds hand, but probably not together.
There is no mention or image shot of the movement.

Face is vaguely suggestive of a snail dial 45M, but the fonts are all off and print quality is that of a ink-jet printer.

Othewrise it appears perfect.

No attempt to gild the lily here; it's more an "inking" of the weed.


----------



## DragonDan

Bizarre. 
Wish we had better photos, or at least one of the caliber.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Joe_A said:


> Otherwise it appears perfect.


Sound like Monty Python's "Life of Brian":

"_...apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?_"

:-d

Hartmut Richter


----------



## raider44

Hi All. I was wondering if anyone could help me identify this Gallet? Sorry can't seem to figure out how to post pics from imgur.



http://imgur.com/TSiA1nh


I took this on a trade recently... but haven't been able to find much information on it. I looked at Gallet World... and there are some similar two register chronos... but none the same. I've seen some very similar 3 register models on eBay called 'Snow White' (like this one: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Gallet-Snow-White-Excelsior-Park-40-68-Manual-Wind-Chronograph/223563071859?hash=item340d65c173:g:-tIAAOSw2QtdD8qz )

- Excelsior Park 4 Movement (at least that is what I was told)
- 37.5mm stainless steel case
- marked 'T' on the dial but i don't see any lume

thanks!


----------



## DragonDan

This is a nice MultiCron 45, from 1969. The caliber is the Excelsior Park EP4 (two subdials). Pretty decent condition overall, some general scuffs. The dial looks great, and the heat-blued hands are always a nice touch.
These dials were printed not knowing if they would end up with lume or not, so it's common to have the Tritium T, without lume applied.


----------



## raider44

Thanks DragonDan! I assume you dated the watch with the serial number... is there a reference source that you use? Would this one be considered a "Snow White" or is that nickname reserved for the 3 register (EP 40) versions?


----------



## Mirius

You won’t be able to post images from Imgur because Imgur block outgoing images. You agreed not to do it when you signed up with Imgur.


----------



## raider44

_You won't be able to post images from Imgur because Imgur block outgoing images. You agreed not to do it when you signed up with Imgur._

interesting. thanks.

i find it frustrating because they don't block outgoing images to other forums that I post on... in fact they have a message board link that you can copy and paste. I find myself not using WUS as much as some other forums because I can't post images here.


----------



## Mirius

That’s because WUS is a very large forum and gets lots of linking from Imgur. They actively review that traffic because it costs them money, and block the sites that draw too many links. It’s not a perfect block but it works well enough. 

Of course everyone seems to blame WUS for the problem.


----------



## Tucayjordan

Sweep second hand is not original from a Gallet Clamshell.

Obviously it´s an issue very easy to solve... but wait for the rest...









Caseback is not from a Gallet Clamshell.

There is no outer engraving with the case serial number. Erased. It would be too obvious showing a not matching case serial number from any another brand that used brevet 189190 cases.

There is no inner perlage (stippling, circular graining). There is no brevet 189190 engraving. There is no "Staybrite" engraving. They have been erased prior to engrave "Stainless steel" (in two lines instead of beeing in the same line) and the correct Gallet & Co Swiss (who could have this original stamp?).

The dial is prior to the end of WW2 and the shape of the caseback (not being Gallet) is post WW2.

I am pretty sure that the upper part of the case is also prior to the end of WW2 (I would need to see more pictures to be 100% sure) so therefore it would not be coetaneous with the post WW2 caseback.

















Movement is not from a Gallet Clamshell.

There is no JRX USA import code engraved in the balance wheel bridge (only seen in Gallet with Venus 150 from the 60´s assembled in non waterproof cases, never in a brevet 189190 case or Clamshell case).

The engraving "Gallet" in the bridge is not coetaneous with a Gallet Clamshell. Perhaps it could be from an original Gallet stamp but if it were original it would be a modern one, never coetaneous with a Gallet Clamshell.

The "Seventen jewels 17 Unadjusted" and "Swiss made" engravings are not located in the proper place in a Gallet Clamshell.

As said before the dial is prior to the end of WW2 and the shape of several pieces of this movement are post WW2.









To me it is 100% a franken, a fake Gallet Clamshell.

Please take your own conclusions...

In adition, in my opinion, due to the provenance of this Gallet, it is very disrespectful with Gallet aficionados.

Very, very, very sad to see this... again...

Statements in the auction text:
"Heavy Stainless Steel Clamshell Compression Case with Original Gallet Factory Finish"
"Safely stored away for over 70 years" 
"1940's"
"Case Condition: excellent with light signs of use, original factory finish intact and not over-polished"

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GALLET-Mul...l-/233369782631?&_trksid=p2056016.m2516.l5255


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## Krogerfoot

The Facebook Group page run by the sellers (Gallet USA's directors) shows them to be knowledgeable and dedicated custodians of the company's legacy, so the marketing flummery and coyness about their identity when hawking their collection on eBay is confounding. It's a set pattern at this point—they post photos of the watches on Facebook, generally with informed and intelligent commentary and speculation about any oddities, such as the reversed countdown dial of this watch, then off it goes to eBay with copy-pasted text about how it was safely stored away for over X years and was fortunately acquired in such amazing condition.


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## DragonDan

As is well known, I'm rather fond of Gallet & Co., it's the only watch I collect. With my interest piqued from my grandfathers' decimal watch when I was a child, I feel close to the brand. An odd set of circumstances led be to become friends with the people involved in the company, so take what I say as you will. I believe the V150 clamshell to be authentic. An oddball, probably one-off proto/ demo/ Bernard Gallet's lunchtime project watch, but it is as Gallet as anything else. This is my opinion.


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## DragonDan

There are some real stinkers on eBay right now, but this one is a true forgery, so let's start with this one.










Honestly, it's a well laid-out design. Too bad it's merely fanciful. The hands don't match each other.










I'm pretty sure this is a Landeron 148. Non-incabloc balance. Generally a pretty solid caliber, if humble. The chrono bridge shows GALLET, which was never done without the "& Co.". Really, do people who make these forgeries ever spend five minutes on Google to see what it should look like?










The inside caseback. Gallet & Co. is always used. Sometimes straight, most of the time curved, but as above, always complete. Certainly never in all block letters.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

People do this so shoddily because they get away with it. And they get away with it because enough people out here without the knowledge are incautious enough to press the "Buy" button before doing the research.....!

Hartmut Richter


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## Joe_A

On the previous page I picked out a stinker with a washed out dial.

Here are two more from the same seller that look like stinkers to me. I won't put up a group of photos as the dial shots should be enough. They've been listed on Ebay for weeks.









The one above has Wakmann Watch Co. on the inside case back.

Here is the third watch:









No movement shots on this one though the ad states it houses a serviced Venus 170 movement.

For some reason, I could not find the above watch on the Gallet World site. ;-)

~ Joe


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## Dan S

DragonDan said:


> As is well known, I'm rather fond of Gallet & Co., it's the only watch I collect. With my interest piqued from my grandfathers' decimal watch when I was a child, I feel close to the brand. An odd set of circumstances led be to become friends with the people involved in the company, so take what I say as you will. I believe the V150 clamshell to be authentic. An oddball, probably one-off proto/ demo/ Bernard Gallet's lunchtime project watch, but it is as Gallet as anything else. This is my opinion.


With all due respect to your knowledge of this brand, in my opinion, unless a prototype/demo watch has rock solid documentation, it should be treated as a fake/franken. And definitely not as collectible as a production piece. The sellers of this watch clearly have access to a large cache of parts that could easily be assembled into watches. Some buyers may be willing to simply take their word for the authenticity of a watch, but I do not. And I think that a buyer of a watch like this will be in for a very rude surprise if they decide to sell the watch someday.


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## DragonDan

Joe_A said:


> I won't put up a group of photos as the dial shots should be enough. They've been listed on Ebay for weeks.
> 
> For some reason, I could not find the above watch on the Gallet World site. ;-)
> 
> ~ Joe


Joe, you are correct. Those batch of kitchen table watches are among the worst I've come across. Thanks for posting them for "posterity", so I don't have to 
There's really nothing to say about them. If I recall, the seller put it best: 'lowest price on ebay'.....

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## DragonDan

Okay, this one is weird. The Blue dialed/ blue bezel'ed case was just sold for $1100? Do they know something I do not?










Makes me wonder if we'll see this on the auction block at some point in the future. Truth be told, I had one of these for a few years, purchased on ebay, but had an ExPark EP40-68 caliber that was non-branded and was not rhodium plated. The movement was not quite complete, so I ended up selling it as is. 
With that one, and the case/ dial that just sold, I've only seen one other model like this. It was a complete watch (no caliber shot so not sure about plating). Interestingly enough, it was listed as being issued to the Peruvian Air Force.

If you're curious, search for the listing: Boîtier cadran aiguilles chronographe GALLET Excelsior Park neuf ancien stock


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## aero-engineer

Just for the information:









Concerning the Jules Racine one - I have similar model but with a blue sweep second hand instead of the red sweep hand on the photos on ebay in the post above. Btw, mine has no any military signs on the caseback


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## DragonDan

Hi Aero, that sounds interesting! So the watch you have imaged is not the one you own? 
The other Peruvian-claiming pieces did not have any military markings either. Just a plain screw-on caseback.


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## aero-engineer

DragonDan said:


> Hi Aero, that sounds interesting! So the watch you have imaged is not the one you own?
> The other Peruvian-claiming pieces did not have any military markings either. Just a plain screw-on caseback.


That picture of EP was taken from Bonhams a couple years ago. I didn't seen any after then.

Mine Jules is quite rare to compare with others Racines - the sweep second hand is not red but blued steel one.

Regarding other Peruvian-claiming pieces you have mentioned in your post, I have seen some ad on the eBay where claimed that the watch with Peruvan AF roots or so, but the inscription was "PRESENTED TO XXXXXX BY PACIFIC *FAP* ESAT LINE, INC. 1975". Unfortunately the pics was removed from the eBay ad but some text was saved.


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## Krogerfoot

Here's a specimen for sale in Japan. Is this a fantasy dial? The logo looks wrong and the dial just seems too pristine. The mix of languages seems pretty Galletesque, on the other hand, if the riot of spellings on later Flying Officer models is anything to go by. I have less than no idea of what I'm talking about with regard to the movement, but "GALLET" with "& Co." seems suspicious.
















Here's another one. The dial looks appropriate, but the movement seems stripped. The seller acknowledges that the crown is a replacement, which seems apparent from fifty paces. I wonder what other obvious tells might I be missing?


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## patrickamory

This is currently on Chrono24. The seller claims 1960 but comparing with GalletWorld it looks more 1970s to me. Anything that stands out as suspicious? Maybe the alignment of the lettering of the cities on the dial? Otherwise, I think it seems okay...


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## patrickamory

Oh, and the subdial hands.


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## DragonDan

Hi KF, 
Yes, that top one is a complete forgery. Honestly, I think we should feel anger that the 'watchmaker' felt they could actually pass this off as a genuine article.



Krogerfoot said:


> Here's a specimen for sale in Japan. Is this a fantasy dial? The logo looks wrong and the dial just seems too pristine. The mix of languages seems pretty Galletesque, on the other hand, if the riot of spellings on later Flying Officer models is anything to go by. I have less than no idea of what I'm talking about with regard to the movement, but "GALLET" with "& Co." seems suspicious.
> 
> Here's another one. The dial looks appropriate, but the movement seems stripped. The seller acknowledges that the crown is a replacement, which seems apparent from fifty paces. I wonder what other obvious tells might I be missing?


The lower one looks okay to me (except for the noted crown). The caliber and markings are as they are supposed to be. A Venus 170, I believe. I would have thought the case should have flat pushers, however.


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## DragonDan

Hi PA, that is a late model Flight (Flying) Officer. The secondary hands are not supposed to be red, it looks a bit like nail polish . Other than that, it is proper and accurate. Gallet didn't put "Flying Officer" on the dial until the early 70's. It was the last FO model produced. Yes, the spelling is certainly weird, we've talked about that at some point in these pages. The spelling isn't exactly Swiss, nor French (because at that time, Gallet & Co. was close to the French border. We've no clear understanding why this is.
It is interesting that this meant-for-American-market chrono ended up in Japan. The balance bridge shows the USA import mark JXR, which wouldn't be there if the piece was intended for anywhere else but USA.



patrickamory said:


> This is currently on Chrono24. The seller claims 1960 but comparing with GalletWorld it looks more 1970s to me. Anything that stands out as suspicious? Maybe the alignment of the lettering of the cities on the dial? Otherwise, I think it seems okay...


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## rynegold

Here's another old Gallet for the thread. No provenance, just a good original watch; I have no idea what model it is, if any. Case measures 37mm. The movement "appears" to be an in-house movement. I don't see any other mfg.'s marks on it.

The link below is to a photo album of the watch. Click on any image and it will automatically enlarge when you pass over it w/your cursor.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157712160871741

DSC02537 by rynegold, on Flickr

DSC02529 by rynegold, on Flickr

DSC02531 by rynegold, on Flickr


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## Dan S

rynegold said:


> Here's another old Gallet for the thread. No provenance, just a good original watch; I have no idea what model it is, if any. Case measures 37mm. The movement "appears" to be an in-house movement. I don't see any other mfg.'s marks on it.


Not fake at all, it's a legit MultiChron 12 with an Excelsior Park movement. Nice watch.


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## rynegold

Thanks Dan! I had no idea what to call/catagorize the movement. So Excelsior Park made it? They (Excelsior) were Swiss I take it?


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## Dan S

rynegold said:


> Thanks Dan! I had no idea what to call/catagorize the movement. So Excelsior Park made it? They (Excelsior) were Swiss I take it?


Yes, great movements. There's a big thread about them here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/excelsior-park-838681.html


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## DragonDan

Yes, Gallet and Excelsior Park were partners, and Gallet eventually purchased/ absorbed them outright in 1983. Typically, Gallet made the case, Singer made the dial, ExPark made the caliber. 

This is what a Multichron 12 should look like.


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## DragonDan

Here's an oddball. My feeling is that it's a marriage watch. A screwback Venus 150 Flying Officer? I don't think so.
It only stayed on ebay for a day or two. Somebody was thinking they found a good deal.

I think the Caliber, dial and hour/ minute hands are Gallet original. Maybe the central seconds hand, maybe the subdial hands. Dial has some staining, but is in overall pretty good shape. The bezel strikes me as odd, it seems like an amalgamation of several generations' design queues.










Caliber looks proper. The off-center fitting of it into the case however, is not kosher. The movement hold-down screws aren't something that Gallet ever used.










The screwback. Everyone should assume to see a 4-screw clamshell, based on the age of the caliber and dial. The inside of the caseback does have the Gallet & Co. stamp, so it leads me to believe it was possibly an original case, or at least an original caseback? I don't know of another Gallet model that houses the V150 and uses a rotating bezel, that is not a F.O.


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## Krogerfoot

Be on the lookout for a watch like this on eBay. The chatter I'm hearing about its amazing mint condition and priceless rarity leads me to believe it will soon be auctioned off to a lucky buyer for not very much money.


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## Vintagetickers

I am a vintage enthusiast when it come to vintage watches. I have found that China is the only one that replicates a few vintage watches and at a 40mm 0r 42mm size which is not accurate for a vintage timepiece. Most vintage time pieces were originally 33 to 36mm. The watches in the pics are very bad fakes with probably dry transfer stickers. The chronograph is not authentic because the date is not on the dial with a date hand. I don't know if that date is photo shopped or not because vintage movements were not set up for date complications within the movement. Could be a quartz movement. I am positive its not a genuine movement in that chronograph


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## DragonDan

Which watch/ chrono are you speaking about, VT?

We've seen some Gallet forgeries, which is why we've made up this particular thread. It's about pointing the finger at the bad ones, and helping with the good ones!


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## Tucayjordan

DragonDan said:


> Here's an oddball. My feeling is that it's a marriage watch. A screwback Venus 150 Flying Officer? I don't think so.
> It only stayed on ebay for a day or two. Somebody was thinking they found a good deal.
> 
> I think the Caliber, dial and hour/ minute hands are Gallet original. Maybe the central seconds hand, maybe the subdial hands. Dial has some staining, but is in overall pretty good shape. The bezel strikes me as odd, it seems like an amalgamation of several generations' design queues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caliber looks proper. The off-center fitting of it into the case however, is not kosher. The movement hold-down screws aren't something that Gallet ever used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The screwback. Everyone should assume to see a 4-screw clamshell, based on the age of the caliber and dial. The inside of the caseback does have the Gallet & Co. stamp, so it leads me to believe it was possibly an original case, or at least an original caseback? I don't know of another Gallet model that houses the V150 and uses a rotating bezel, that is not a F.O.


Hello Daniel, that one is original. It was your Gallet Flight Officer of the month on August 2011 in your calendar of your Gallet Flight Officer FaceBook.

Some pictures of other examples:












































The best pictures are here: https://watchestobuy.com/shop/galletflyingofficer-htm/


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## DragonDan

Hi TucayJordan,
You are correct in that I'd posted about it previously. Definitely forgotten about that one. It strikes me as odd that Gallet would make the same model in both a 4-screw clamshell and a screw-back. 
Since 2011, we have seen some interesting combinations. So it definitely appears that this is a legit Gallet FO. I'll make an edit on my original post.


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## DragonDan

Some research has shown that the screwback Flight Officer is legit. Gallet started making this variant starting about 1948. it is just slightly larger than the 4-screw clamshell case. A side benefit was that the screwback case took a standard crystal, not the single-source flared crystal that the clamshell required


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## DragonDan

Sorry to say, but this one is a frankenstein. If only for an incorrect bezel.










An actual first gen bezel looks like this:









The person who made this bezel apparently has seen the Truman Flight Officer that is in the NAWCC museum (and posted in a few other places). That watch is being loaned to the museum by Gallet. At that time, Gallet was funding an exhibit, and the museum agreed to do a restoration of the V150 chrono, and make a new bezel because the orig was long gone. So even though Gallet sent some photos to the watchmaker, the end result wasn't exact. Not really a problem, but I find it interesting that whoever made the latest eBay FO bezel based their design on an incorrect piece.

The good thing that everything else looks correct and factory, but it's in pretty rough condition. Truth be told, I bid on it, but I wasn't going to go much past 1,000 pounds. It does need a good amount of work, with parts that are getting increasingly hard to come by. A serviceable dial alone would easily push $500.


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## Tucayjordan

Daniel, I confess that I also bid on this one... and I lost it for 20 GBP! Congratulations to the lucky winner!

In my opinion the rotating bezel of this Gallet Flight Officer is the original one that was assembled in the earliest examples. If an original Gallet Fligh Officer rotating bezel was lost or broken it was possible to replace it with any bezel from the earliest case or the immediately later case as they are interchangeable.


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## Tucayjordan

Another Franken/Fake Gallet Clamshell...

















The sweep seconds hand is not original.

It is an early Gallet Clamshell dial (from 1938 to end of WW2) but the type of case with "straight" lugs is post WW2 and I am pretty sure that is not a Gallet case... casually there is no picture of the inner side of the caseback...


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## DragonDan

Is it just the image, or does this seem to be a chromed case, as opposed to full Stainless Steel?

Looks like a genuine Gallet dial, but those hands are not correct.


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## Tucayjordan

Another "franken" Gallet:









































Sweep second hand is not original.

The hour and minute hands have been redone and I am not sure if they are original or not.

The radium of the dial numbers has been removed.

There is no "H" engraved in a lug (it should be when assembling an Excelsior Park 40) and I am not sure if the front part of the case is from an Excelsior Park movement or not.

The caseback is from another type of Gallet chronograph, not from an Excelsior Park (there is no Excelsior Park case serial number). Will the size of the caseback thread be the same? It does not look so in the last picture...

The balance cock is not properly engraved with the USA import code "JXR" for Gallet watches.


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## Hartmut Richter

...dull movement with shiny engraved parts. :roll:

Hartmut Richter


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## DragonDan

HR is correct, this seems like a marriage watch.


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## Tucayjordan

Another franken Gallet: it assembles not Gallet parts and not coetaneous parts.

























-Hour and minutes hands are not original Gallet/Excelsior Park.

-Crown is not original.

-Dial and movement are Gallet but caseback is not Gallet (it can be from any other brand that assembled Excelsior Park 42 calibers) .

-Gallet dial and small hands are prior to the end of WW2 but case (not being Gallet) is post WW2.

Issues:

-One missing jewel.

-There is a hole in both parts of the case (under 6 o´clock). I have seen this in several Excelsior Park 42/Gallet. I would appreciate if someone could share a logical explanation of the supposed "utility" of these holes.


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## DragonDan

Pedro, good catch on the missing jewel. Yes, this has seen some work and replacement parts, but overall it looks quite serviceable. Other than the movement hold down screw at 2 o'clock, the movement doesn't look abused. 

As you know, the EP42 dials don't age well, so this one is in great shape.

It really seems like the movement is twisted slightly to the right? I'm not sure if it is the angle of the camera view, but it does not look aligned. Maybe dial feet were removed, but then how would the subdials fit? Strange stuff. 

On the little hole, I'd always suspected that was a point of entry for a case knife tool, because those snap-back cases are sometimes tough.


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## pantelis25

Hey guys, any thoughts on this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283820488249


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## DragonDan

Well, it's a very late 1940's version. No movement shots, that's a red flag, but otherwise, it's completely legitimate.

I did snap up a similar V150 FO model last month. However mine is the incabloc version.

I'd really like to see the engine on this one. I don't remember seeing 'stainless steel" stamped on the backs of other FO's, but it could just be one of the variants. *edit 3/24: I do feel this is a legitimate Gallet case, and feel it was probably added from a customers request.*
Hands look proper. The Bezel is a "narrow coin edge'" version, as opposed to the more aggressive wider coin edge

I doubt it will stay in the $2k range for long!
-Daniel 

Sent from my secret off-shore account


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## pantelis25

To be honest Dan i am a little bit concerned by:
1. i have never seen that kind of bezel on a f/o
2. have never seen stainless steel on a back too
3. if i was to sell such a piece i would provide pics of the movement.


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## DragonDan

You know, I think you are right about the bezel. I was looking at it via my phone. Now that I've seen it on my monitor, I too have doubts. I think that is a newly manufactured bezel. Here are some images of bezels from that time frame:



















I think this is the closest one:


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## Dan S

Great observations about that bezel @pantelis25 and @DragonDan.


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## DragonDan

Thanks DanS, I've been thinking a lot about bezels in the last few years, feel kinda dumb that I didn't catch that right off. 
For reference, here are screen shots of the FO in question.


















Notice how the coin edge doesn't go the full height of the side? That only happened on the Landeron 149 versions of the FO. 
The image of the Harry Truman white ring Flight Officer earlier is how the bezels should look on ALL first gen models. There were some slight variations, but didn't noticeably change until after 1956. Then the L149 models came out with their very different look.

I do greatly prefer the 'aggressive' coin edge of the first gen models. To me, it looks like what a tool watch should be.
~D


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## M. Reno

My friend gave me a box of watches today. He said since I like watches I could have them! And i pulled this beauty! Needs some work on the crown and pushers. But I've emailed Gallet already to get it fixed up. I'm so excited to have pulled this. I don't know much about them but I'm learning! I also pulled an Omega Seamaster. 61 or 62 I think!









Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Dan S

That's well worth the price of restoration, @M. Reno. You have a great friend, you should do something nice for him once life is back to normal. :-!


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## M. Reno

Dan S said:


> That's well worth the price of restoration, @M. Reno. You have a great friend, you should do something nice for him once life is back to normal. :-!


Yes, I agree. He is a great friend! Yeah 3 Gruen Precision, 1 Gruen thin, Bulova, Elgin, Lord Elgin, Omega Seemaster, and some others. After some reading it has the H on the case and everything looks legit I think. Yes I will be getting it fixed up for sure.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Tucayjordan

pantelis25 said:


> Hey guys, any thoughts on this?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/283820488249


We were talking about this specific Gallet Flight Officer some time ago (page 12, post#120 of this thread). The bezel is a (quite good) imitation but not original.

I have been checking old pictures and I just want to add that this specific Gallet Flight Officer was sold on 27th of October 2016 (I was also bidding) and it was sold without bezel nor crown. The minute and hour hands have been repainted.

The dial is original.

















About the words "stainless steel" engraved on the outer side of the caseback is the first time I see that but I believe that it could be original.


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## Sirbjorn

Hello everyone - I am new to the whole Gallet game so please ignore any silly questions here, but what are people's thoughts on this FO from Eric Wind? Appreciate he is a (fairly) well known trader but feels a bit pricey. Also is the "orange" dial just due to discolouration or actually is was made with an orange lacquer to begin with?

https://www.windvintage.com/gallet-flying-officer


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## Dan S

Sirbjorn said:


> Hello everyone - I am new to the whole Gallet game so please ignore any silly questions here, but what are people's thoughts on this FO from Eric Wind? Appreciate he is a (fairly) well known trader but feels a bit pricey. Also is the "orange" dial just due to discolouration or actually is was made with an orange lacquer to begin with?
> 
> https://www.windvintage.com/gallet-flying-officer


Very bad dial damage on that one.


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## DragonDan

It's all marketing DS! 

I see it as lacquer erosion/ damage (which is actually a rare occurance on these clamshell models), but if you squint really hard, then it's orange lacquer. Overall, that is a good piece.


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## DragonDan

Good catch P,
I'd not remembered that conversation. I agree, the bezel is well done, but because it's not original/ from Gallet it will affect the pricing. Or at least it probably will, who knows what the bidders know. I keep going back and forth on the "stainless steel" on the caseback. I'm more convinced that it was just one of the Gallet variants. It's quite possible that a customer ordered a batch of these clamshell V150's, and wanted that stamped on the back. Probably to satisfy requirements for some facility. 
If the inside caseback does have the Gallet & Co., then it is legit. I've asked the seller for interior photos, but no response as of yet.



Tucayjordan said:


> We were talking about this specific Gallet Flight Officer some time ago (page 12, post#120 of this thread). The bezel is a (quite good) imitation but not original.
> I have been checking old pictures and I just want to add that this specific Gallet Flight Officer was sold on 27th of October 2016 (I was also bidding) and it was sold without bezel nor crown. The minute and hour hands have been repainted.
> The dial is original.
> View attachment 14974451
> 
> 
> About the words "stainless steel" engraved on the outer side of the caseback is the first time I see that but I believe that it could be original.


----------



## Sirbjorn

That was my original reaction as well, however he seems to be selling it as almost a special variation on the dial. Does anyone know if the red tail specials actually existed and what dial they had?


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## DragonDan

Sirbjorn said:


> That was my original reaction as well, however he seems to be selling it as almost a special variation on the dial. Does anyone know if the red tail specials actually existed and what dial they had?


Hi SirB,
Wind Vintage's FO is definitely not a Red Tail. Yes, those exist, and I've had conversations with the owner. Unfortunately the dial is not in great condition, but it clearly shows the striking Red and Black background.
There was a thread about that piece here on WuS, with photos.
-Daniel

Sent from my secret off-shore account


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## pantelis25

DragonDan said:


> Good catch P,
> I'd not remembered that conversation. I agree, the bezel is well done, but because it's not original/ from Gallet it will affect the pricing. Or at least it probably will, who knows what the bidders know. I keep going back and forth on the "stainless steel" on the caseback. I'm more convinced that it was just one of the Gallet variants. It's quite possible that a customer ordered a batch of these clamshell V150's, and wanted that stamped on the back. Probably to satisfy requirements for some facility.
> If the inside caseback does have the Gallet & Co., then it is legit. I've asked the seller for interior photos, but no response as of yet.


Does the serial on caseback look correct according the model?


----------



## DragonDan

That Flight Officer on ebay shows a serial of 144754. If it were an Excelsior Park caliber, I could narrow it down pretty easily. Because the clamshell case was used by other companies, Gallet did use different serial numbering systems.

However, how about it's brother: 144753?


































I just noticed, this piece shows "Stainless Steel" above the serial.


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## Dan S

The eBay Flying Officer with the reproduction bezel sold for $5600 USD. o|


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## Sirbjorn

Punchy...


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## pantelis25

Dan S said:


> The eBay Flying Officer with the reproduction bezel sold for $5600 USD. o|


Without even movement pics!!!


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## Sirbjorn

Dan S said:


> The eBay Flying Officer with the reproduction bezel sold for $5600 USD. o|


Does 5-6k seem to be the current price levels for one of the earlier editions of FO? I was hoping to find one rather than the 70s models of which there seem to be a few in the market. However at that price I may need to rethink my options...


----------



## georges zaslavsky

Dan S said:


> The eBay Flying Officer with the reproduction bezel sold for $5600 USD. o|


Some people are buying whatever they can with money even it if is irresponsible:"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." Edgar Allan Poe. I mean who would buy a watch without movement, caseback number, movement serial number and dial pics???


----------



## pantelis25

georges zaslavsky said:


> Some people are buying whatever they can with money even it if is irresponsible:"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." Edgar Allan Poe. I mean who would buy a watch without movement, caseback number, movement serial number and dial pics???


Couldn't agree more


----------



## pantelis25

Sirbjorn said:


> Does 5-6k seem to be the current price levels for one of the earlier editions of FO? I was hoping to find one rather than the 70s models of which there seem to be a few in the market. However at that price I may need to rethink my options...


Depends on condition, unfortunately good examples can be sold from 10-15k....


----------



## pantelis25

Sirbjorn said:


> Hello everyone - I am new to the whole Gallet game so please ignore any silly questions here, but what are people's thoughts on this FO from Eric Wind? Appreciate he is a (fairly) well known trader but feels a bit pricey. Also is the "orange" dial just due to discolouration or actually is was made with an orange lacquer to begin with?
> 
> https://www.windvintage.com/gallet-flying-officer


Honestly someone has to define finally what means patina. Whatever you see with a different color that it should be is called patina! Damage, discoloration due to any reason....? my opinion patina is whatever is caused through the passing of a long time and it is evenly distributed all over the dial. Has to show as a very light change that will make the watch more attractive and not as a damage. Not that expert though......


----------



## DragonDan

I suppose it's defining the difference between art and damage. That, my friends, is best left up to the individual

Sent from my secret off-shore account


----------



## pantelis25

DragonDan said:


> I suppose it's defining the difference between art and damage. That, my friends, is best left up to the individual
> 
> Sent from my secret off-shore account


Strange and difficult to understand personally.....but soooo true


----------



## DragonDan

SB, yes, those FO's are creeping up in price/ value. Even the Landeron 149-based 2nd gen models are fetching a pretty penny. I'm so happy I found my L149 a decade ago when I could afford it 

That Wind Vintage 1st Gen FO is asking $9k, and he'll probably get it. Of course, the dial has to be loved by the new owner, as we were chatting about with the concept of Patina.
Kinda along the same lines as scratches/ dings or Wabi Sabi. Beauty is in the eye of the person with the checkbook



Sirbjorn said:


> Does 5-6k seem to be the current price levels for one of the earlier editions of FO? I was hoping to find one rather than the 70s models of which there seem to be a few in the market. However at that price I may need to rethink my options...


----------



## Sirbjorn

The way the dial is explained as exotic threw me as if it was something that was original a different colour, not just patina/ discolouration. For me the dial has gone too far where you cannot really make out the original markings on the dial, but then again from some angles it just looks absolutely amazing! Its unique that is for sure...

Search continues...



DragonDan said:


> SB, yes, those FO's are creeping up in price/ value. Even the Landeron 149-based 2nd gen models are fetching a pretty penny. I'm so happy I found my L149 a decade ago when I could afford it
> 
> That Wind Vintage 1st Gen FO is asking $9k, and he'll probably get it. Of course, the dial has to be loved by the new owner, as we were chatting about with the concept of Patina.
> Kinda along the same lines as scratches/ dings or Wabi Sabi. Beauty is in the eye of the person with the checkbook


----------



## RedOctober28

Just read the whole thread, the depth of knowledge you all display on this semi-niche subject is honestly quite impressive. As someone hunting for their first Gallet, does an unsigned bridge in a Landeron movement in a mid 60s flight officer which is signed "Racine & co." elsewhere on the movement automatically equal frankenwatch? Would be a shame because the dial and case are gorgeous.


----------



## DragonDan

Hi RO28,
Nope, not necessarily. Photos would help me nail down details for you. Can PM me if you like. The late model Flight Officers had many variations on caliber/ caseback markings. The early to mid 1960's were pretty in line with tradition. The later models sometimes had no marking on the chrono bridge, but either Gallet & Co or Racine & Co on the mainplate. I've seen some with no markings, but still a legitimate factory piece. Some showed JXR on the balance bridge, some did not. 
A note here; if it says Flying Officer on the dial, it's from the 70's.

Things got wonky in the 70's, every manufacturer was trying to slim down production costs due to the quartz crisis. But, of course, there are some unscrupulous people who put forth marriage watches or worse. That's why I put this thread together! 
-D



RedOctober28 said:


> , does an unsigned bridge in a Landeron movement in a mid 60s flight officer which is signed "Racine & co." elsewhere on the movement automatically equal frankenwatch?


Sent from my secret off-shore account


----------



## OakmontGuy

Hello all,

Made an account to ask a question. I received this watch from my grandfather. It seems to be a Gallet but it is different from every Gallet watch I have seen online. Does anyone know what year this might be from? I don't know very much about this brand.

Thanks in advance!

OakmontGuy


----------



## DragonDan

Thanks Oak guy. I could not see these images from my phone at first, but they are showing up now.

This is a 1970's Gallet, sort of an everyday, basic timepiece. I own one of these as well, but with a light cream dial. These are not very common in the Black dial.
The movement should be an A Schild or an ETA caliber.








Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


----------



## OakmontGuy

DragonDan said:


> Thanks Oak guy. I could not see these images from my phone at first, but they are showing up now.
> 
> This is a 1970's Gallet, sort of an everyday, basic timepiece. I own one of these as well, but with a light cream dial. These are not very common in the Black dial.
> The movement should be an A Schild or an ETA caliber.
> View attachment 15240405
> 
> 
> Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


Thanks, DragonDan. Do you know if this would have been sold at Eaton's Department Stores? I saw some similar watches marketed as the Solar brand there.

I plan to take off the blue band and add a nice toffee one.


----------



## JKL

Hi All,
I'm looking at a very clean multichron pilot with Valjoux 72 that has the older style signage (GALLET without clock hands) on a silver dial, and with all-black bezel. The movement is signed with Gallet & Co and JXR. My question for the group-- does this combination look all original, or has there been some restoration or mixing of vintages? Thanks so much!


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Well, unless the watch has not been photographed exactly from the front or unless there is some distortion from the crystal, the second subdial isn't centred on the depresseion for it so that should indicate a redial.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Dan S

The MC Pilot looks legit to me, and in very fine condition. Everything about it is similarly pristine. I have the same watch, and I always thought it was a pretty good example until I saw yours. 

Here it is for comparison.


----------



## JKL

Dan S said:


> The MC Pilot looks legit to me, and in very fine condition. Everything about it is similarly pristine. I have the same watch, and I always thought it was a pretty good example until I saw yours.
> 
> Here it is for comparison.
> 
> View attachment 15336082


Thanks so much for chiming in. Your example is stunning, and I like the strap pairing especially. I want to get the same strap. Also your subdial hands are centered perfectly. I've seen some fairly off center 12 o'clock subdials in legit Gallet multichron pilots, it can be an issue sometimes and non-Gallet servicing probably doesn't help.


----------



## Dan S

JKL said:


> Thanks so much for chiming in. Your example is stunning, and I like the strap pairing especially. I want to get the same strap. Also your subdial hands are centered perfectly. I've seen some fairly off center 12 o'clock subdials in legit Gallet multichron pilots, it can be an issue sometimes and non-Gallet servicing probably doesn't help.


This is the strap. I'm happy with the quality. ColaReb 20mm Venezia Black Leather Grey Stitch Watch Strap | Amazon.com


----------



## Tucayjordan

Another Gallet assembled with parts from different models and different brands:










































The balance cock wheel is not engraved with the USA import code for Gallet (JXR).

This Gallet assembles an Excelsior Park 4 movement but there is no Excelsior Park serial number engraved on the inner side of the caseback. This caseback does not match with any Excelsior Park movement. It is signed Gallet but there is no case serial number as it should. This Gallet caseback belongs to a Gallet chronograph but not to a Gallet chronograph with an Excelsior Park movement.

P.S: thanks for the tip Ricardo.


----------



## Krogerfoot

The host of a watch discussion podcast showed up on Gallet USA's Facebook page asking about military-issue Gallet watches. Gallet's American director obliged by posting examples of attested government-issue pocket watches and stopwatches.















Gallet's Gulf War-era Marathon- and Adanac-branded watches also came up in the ensuing discussion. As Gallet fans began to chime in, they began to conflate 1940s and 1960s Gallet models with the conflicts of those eras. Here is an exchange about a Multichron 24H chronograph, described on Gallet's Web site as "issued to US officers during the Korean and Vietnam wars." If this is true, it shouldn't be hard to find evidence for, but I am unaware of any that has emerged.








Thus does a watch owned by an individual Korean War veteran in the 1960s become a military-issue pilot's watch through the application of motivated thinking. The host enthusiastically repeated the lore on the show, describing the model as a piece of US military history.

Another user's question, which I have also asked in the past, got an answer from Gallet: Was the celebrated Flight/Flying Officer chronograph _ever_ issued to any armed force?









So: "Swiss Air Force" models and one-of-a-kind "USA Ord. Dept." Flight/Flying Officer models notwithstanding, and despite the descriptions on Gallet's web site, Gallet FO models were not issued by any military. Rather, service members had to take the slight detour of presenting a voucher at Gallet's headquarters (in Switzerland?) to pick up their timepieces. Was it common practice during WWII for Allied military personnel to travel to a neutral country to get a watch? Just asking the question reveals its absurdity.

If you think this discussion is tedious, you're not alone. Does it belong in this thread? The majority of the vintage watches streaming semi-monthly from Gallet USA to eBay are neither frankens nor fakes, but accompanied as they are with fantastical claims that are either unverifiable or cannot possibly be true, at least some of them are close. The Gallet Flying/Flight Officer is a beautiful watch with or without its purported military pedigree, but words have meanings.









(Advertising from the era doesn't mention military use, and probably not because of any Top-Secret skullduggery.)










If a watch has Swiss Air Force markings and is described by the manufacturer's representatives as a military-issue watch, then it matters whether the watch was really issued by the Swiss Air Force.









If the value of a watch comes from its extraordinary rarity and unique backstory, the veracity of that story matters.



















The claims made on Gallet's websites may simply be the product of a reluctance to examine the lore passed down by the company's founding family. I don't know if other watch companies promote similar myths about their military provenance, but in a thread about Gallet research, I think it's important to stay up to date with the latest understanding. If anyone has uncovered evidence of military-issued Gallet Flight/Flying Officers or any Gallet watch aside from the ones in this post, or any kind of documentation _that does not simply lead back to the people at Gallet themselves_, I hope they will share it.


----------



## Dan S

Krogerfoot said:


> The host of a watch discussion podcast showed up on Gallet USA's Facebook page asking about military-issue Gallet watches.
> 
> ...
> ...
> ...
> 
> If anyone has uncovered evidence of military-issued Gallet Flight/Flying Officers or any Gallet watch aside from the ones in this post, or any kind of documentation _that does not simply lead back to the people at Gallet themselves_, I hope they will share it.


Yes, this is not quite the same as a fake/franken, but fake provenance is still worth discussing in this thread IMO, since it is a related concept. I have ultimately come to the opinion that all of these unprovable military connections are just complete fabrication. As you note, all of these claims are relatively recent, and connected to a certain small group of people associated with the modern Gallet company. Frankly, some of the claims are so outlandish that they are laughable, just total nonsense. It's not the type of behavior one likes to see from people running a watch company with a wonderful history, but consistent with other things that we see from them, like the sale of undocumented "one-of-a-kind prototype watches" that appear to be put together from parts.


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## Tucayjordan

This Gallet assembling a Valjoux 72C in a 14K gold case was sold in ebay 2 months ago. That day its dial was redone and the crown was not original. Everything else was original Gallet.

Today it is for sale in ebay again but with a different (original Gallet) dial with golden numbers, 3 different small hands, a smaller crown and several (not original Gallet) movement parts from a Wittnauer Valjoux 72C chronograph.

Please see the AXA engraved on the balance cock (with Incabloc), the US import code for Wittnauer, instead of the proper JXR Gallet code. The bridge engraved with "Gallet Seventeen 17 Jewels Unadjusted Swiss" comes from the original Gallet chronograph movement to try to hide the swap.


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## DragonDan

Looks like the same watch to me. Several scratches on the caliber match up. That original redial was terrible.


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## Tucayjordan

Another very obvious franken Gallet Clamshell: the only Gallet part of this watch is the dial and it does not belong to a Gallet Clamshell. It has been sold today in ebay Italy for 1200 EUR... a shame but a good bussiness for the crook




























The movement is a Venus 175 assembled in a 36mm brevet 189190 case ("Clamshell" type) instead of a Venus 150 assembled in a 34,40mm original Gallet Clamshell case. Obviously this Gallet dial is too small for this size of case and obviously neither the case nor the movement are signed Gallet anywhere.
A pure fraud.


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## Tucayjordan

Two pictures of a Gallet Flight Officer from Italy with dial, caseback and upper part of the case from three different watches of three different ages.

The older caseback with the case serial number does not match with the more recent upper part of the case with straight lugs.

*If *this caseback was assembled originally on a Gallet Flight Officer, the dial should be black, not white. I would say that most probably this caseback was assembled originally on a Gallet Clamshell, not on a Gallet Flight Officer.

The upper part of the case with straight lugs does not match with this dial. The two subdials should have only battons, not small "boxes".

So none of these three visible parts of the watch match with any of the other two parts.

It´s a beauty but sadly it is a franken.


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## MoreWatches

Is it ok if I still like it?!?


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## Tucayjordan

MoreWatches said:


> Is it ok if I still like it?!?


? of course yes, I love it as well: it is a beautiful Gallet Flight Officer... the only issue is that it is assembled with parts of three different and non coetaneous beautiful Gallet chronographs.

If I was the owner I would like to dissamble it and make good use of its parts by assembling three beautiful Gallet chronographs with all their proper original coetaneous parts. But I am not the owner and everyone is free...

To me it is perfectly correct and honest to change any damaged part of a Gallet chronograph if the "new" part is original Gallet, from the same model and coetaneous.

Just imagine that this had happened with a watch of a bigger brand like Rolex, Patek Philippe, Longines, Audemars Piguet... I believe that the general opinion would be that the watch had lost most of its value and the reputation of the frankenmaker would not be good...

I love vintage Gallet chronographs and because of that I share information to try to discourage non ethical behaviours of frankenmakers, to avoid frauds and to preserve vintage Gallet chronographs in their original configurations. Due to the lack of Gallet official documentation and therefore the lack of Gallet popular knowledge in detail, I believe that these are the purposes of this thread.


----------



## Max Power 85

DragonDan said:


> Another Marathon Navigator, this one somebody decided to put a mechanical movement into a quartz case. While I admire the ingenuity it took to do this, it's still a frankenstein watch. Notice this also has the Desert Storm logo on the dial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peek-A-Boo!


Thats really cool


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## Dan S

What do you think about this "unique" dial. The seller claims it is the "only example known in this configuration". Of course, he also says it is in LNOS condition, but it has some nasty tool marks on the back.



https://oliverandclarke.com/vintagewatches/gallet-multichron-12-chronograph


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## Sdasurrey

Dan S said:


> What do you think about this "unique" dial. The seller claims it is the "only example known in this configuration". Of course, he also says it is in LNOS condition, but it has some nasty tool marks on the back.
> 
> 
> 
> https://oliverandclarke.com/vintagewatches/gallet-multichron-12-chronograph
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15494880


@dan - I'm less the Gallet chrono expert, I have my Electa gallet trench watch that I confirmed with the President of Gallet reaching out informally, but IMHO that's NOT an original dial ....S

+ no movement pic .... but I think your point is it's not real .....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dan S

I just think it takes an incredible amount of chutzpah for a dealer to claim that a certain dial is unique, but legit. I will also note that the Telemeter track is very poorly done and inaccurate. It should be 4.7 seconds per mile, but they put the 1 mile mark way too far along (at 6 seconds) and then compressed the rest of the scale to catch up. For example, mile 2 is still close to 11 seconds.


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## Tucayjordan

This specific dial was sold in ebay on December 2019.
The rest of the story is extremely usual with vintage Gallet chronographs: the buyer assembled a watch with parts from different watches...
Suspiciously there are no pictures of the inner side of the caseback or the movement.
A Gallet case like this can be found in ebay for 250 USD, a set of Valjoux 72 hands for 115 USD and a Valjoux 72 movement (not Gallet) from 1200 USD on...
Until Dan´s acute remark about the Telemeter scale I was pretty sure that this dial was original Gallet. Now I am not so optimistic.
I am 100% sure that this watch has been assembled in the last 10 months. I attach a picture of this specific dial:


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## Dan S

Tucayjordan said:


> This specific dial was sold in ebay on December 2019.
> The rest of the story is extremely usual with vintage Gallet chronographs: the buyer assembled a watch with parts from different watches...
> Suspiciously there are no pictures of the inner side of the caseback or the movement.
> A Gallet case like this can be found in ebay for 250 USD, a set of Valjoux 72 hands for 115 USD and a Valjoux 72 movement (not Gallet) from 1200 USD on...
> Until Dan´s acute remark about the Telemeter scale I was pretty sure that this dial was original Gallet. Now I am not so optimistic.
> I am 100% sure that this watch has been assembled in the last 10 months. I attach a picture of this specific dial:
> 
> View attachment 15495710


This is really great research and record-keeping. We are indebted to you for tracking these sales. As for the assembled watch, eBay sales are one thing, but I really hate the fact that high-end dealers are selling pieces like this with made-up stories and exaggerated claims.


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## Sdasurrey

To jump back in, (1) on the dial the clear, ‘vibrant’ multi colours with what looks from pics like near zero patina just looks like a complete re-dial - no Gallets you can find as discussed by others already look like this. 

When you collect for a while a specific vintage brand, Eberhard for me, you see so many dials over the years that a dial like this that doesn’t fit and it jumps out as a redial...

(2) On upscale sellers I also agree I’m not sure why a seller hypothetically with a usually good rep who sells 90% + real vintage examples once in a while throws something like this in the mix.
This happened to me twice recently in seller discussions representing original dials which didn’t at all look like original dials..... and I said that and they still argued to me they were original ...S


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MoreWatches

So my questions is did the sellers do the assembling of the watch and then knowingly try to pass it off as something else or was it sent to them already done?


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## Sdasurrey

Having found the black Gallet re-dial watch under discussion, NONE of this seller’s watches (quick check..) have hallmark, inside case back or movement pics - it’s been said on here many times, the simplest ‘tell’ on lack of authenticity is missing inside pics !!!!!

Thus it seems to me to be a simple rule everyone should internalise and follow - especially if every seller’s watch doesn’t show full pics ! S

PS I mean even the $25k Movado has NO inside pics ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tucayjordan

Here it is an original vintage Gallet with EP42 with a not coetaneous dial.

The whole watch is a very early example of 1939 but the dial is post 1945.

I wouldn´t like to be "picky", I just try to transmit accurate information that can be useful when we restore a vintage Gallet chronograph to bring it back to his original conditions.


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## Evan2

*Info sought on vintage Gallet!*
Thank you in advance for your help and i apologize if this has been talked before .
Would like to have any info or thought if this Gallet watch is legit .
I am interested on the backstory of where it came from and why the eagle was added to this watch .
Could this be another military example by Gallet ?
I understand this might have been offered on Ebay some time ago , but could not find the record.
Kind regards


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## Dan S

It looks like the chronograph bridge has been filed down, which is extremely suspicious.


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## Tucayjordan

On April 2018 DragonDan already made a post about this franken... Page #3 of this thread, post #41...
This type of Gallet cases can be found easily on ebay...
Movement (Valjoux 23) is not signed Gallet anywhere...
100% Franken to my eyes...


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## 13giugno

Hi everybody, here my Gallet with landeron 149, what do you think about this watch?how can I date it? Is it from '60 or '70?
Thanks 
Marco


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## DragonDan

This is a valid watch, I used to own an example. It would be from the very early 1970's, and has the Landeron 149 caliber. Usually they are signed Gallet & Co. on the mainplate, but sometimes not. It does have the JXR import code for Gallet, so it, along with the signed back, is correct.


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## 13giugno

DragonDan said:


> This is a valid watch, I used to own an example. It would be from the very early 1970's, and has the Landeron 149 caliber. Usually they are signed Gallet & Co. on the mainplate, but sometimes not. It does have the JXR import code for Gallet, so it, along with the signed back, is correct.


Many thanks for your reply, It 's hard to see in this picture but is signed Gallet. What does it means JXR import code?


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## DragonDan

You are right, I missed that detail. The JXR stands for Jules Racine, a cousin to the Gallet's, and their sole American importer for a number of years. This is a tax stamp identifier, for import purposes.


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## 13giugno

Thanks for your reply, so is this a model for USA? Should be a model for USA army?


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## Cg117

Hey guy - curious if this one is legit


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## Cg117

Bump


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## Rjwright

I'm looking at basically the same watch, same dial but with a DECIMAL instead of MILE. The Bridge on the one I'm looking at is identical to this one but Gallet & Co in different position but well engraved. Are these dials original? I do hope an expert responds as I am interested in buying.


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## pantelis25

@*Rjwright* can you please show us some pics


----------



## Rjwright




----------



## Rjwright




----------



## Rjwright

Thanks. This forum - and post has been very helpful in steering me AWAY from a couple of watches with mixed parts, mainly bridges...


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## Dan S

Those photos are extremely heavily processed, which makes me nervous. Are these artsy photos that you downloaded? Or photos sent by the seller intended to show the watch. The one of the dial, with the diagonal lines overlaying everything but the dial is especially strange. I'm not saying the watch isn't legit, but I would be nervous about judging condition from those photos.


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## Rjwright

The background is omitted, thats all. I just want to know if the dial is legit. The 7 looks great but I've not seen another like it. So I'm wondering. And the Gallet mark on the bridge looks unique.


----------



## laikrodukas

dial(including 7) looks exactly the same as several posts up


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## Dan S

Rjwright said:


> The background is omitted, thats all. I just want to know if the dial is legit. The 7 looks great but I've not seen another like it. So I'm wondering. And the Gallet mark on the bridge looks unique.


Well, I don't know what that means, but if someone is going to play games with the photos, I think I am going to refrain from commenting. The photo of the movement has also been tampered with, making it hard to see the engravings. I think you will get better help if you provide better photos.

And also, since this is an archival thread, it is desirable to have good photographic evidence of all parts of every watch. You may just want one piece of information from us and not care about contributing to the community, but the photos provide a useful database for many reasons. For example, at some point, someone may be interested in cross-referencing this type of dial with the type of case/lugs. If you blur the background, it makes the photos less useful for research.


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## Rjwright

Thanks for the reply. I will post archival shots now. I was wary as another expert group I was previously a part of was used by dealers to buy items that they saw as rare and legitimate. I enjoy Gallet and plan to acquire any really nice ones and will contribute as I can. This watch is beautiful and I believe it original, I was asking about the 7 on the dial and Gallet & Co positioning on the movement. Experts may know... Thanks


----------



## DragonDan

Hi RJW,
DS is correct, those images are weird. Why digitally remove the lugs? At any rate, I'll chalk it up to inexperience with photoshop.

The dial is factory, and correct. That type of logo was used in the 30's and 40's,is the Serif logo (one of my favorites, actually).

The caliber is the Venus 188 (which after 1966 became the Valjoux 773x). According to Dr Ranfft's wonderful pink pages, the V188 started in 1948. Notice the lack of incabloc shock protection on the balance bridge? That aligns date-wise w/ the dial, which lends weight to my opinion that this is a legitimate piece.
Plus, the caliber looks unmolested. Screw heads aren't chewed up. Now that also means you will need to figure in a full service to bring it right. 

This means it was probably the last series of this model variant (Multichron 30).
What is really nice about the dial is that it's actually a Decimal watch. The blue chapter ring goes 0-20, with 10 at 6 o'clock. Very cool!

Now, with the unfortunate images, we have no idea of the condition of the case. However, Gallet almost always used solid SS, so it's probably not an issue. A small handful of models in and around this time frame had chromed cases, which were prone to flaking off on the underside.

The config of the dial (save for the Decimal feature, that's special) and hands continued for decades after it switched to the Valjoux 773x.

Nice watch, held back by crummy photos.
-Daniel 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## HDKJPN

WatchFred said:


> here are Kai's pics:


Hi！ From JAPAN
FLYING OFFICER AS7584 CAL.POLJOT3133
THE GALLET WATCH COMPANY Said
According to information provided by the late Bernard Gallet, this version was produced in 1975 to 1976. It is one of the very first uses of the famed Russian Poljot calibre 3133 movements.
The watches, utilizing both Swiss and Russian components, were created upon order by the Armée Suisse (Swiss Army) as gifts for an official delegation of Russian soldiers to Switzerland and as a gesture of Swiss-Russian diplomacy and coordination.
While a few of these have appeared on the market lately, they are actually quite rare watches.


----------



## dan_anderson

Hi Gallet brains trust!

Ive spotted this on eBay:








Gallet Valjoux 7734 Chronograph Manual 35mm Stainless Steel Wristwatch 1950's | eBay


The case is in great condition with very minimal wear. The dial has very light aging and is in overall great condition, as pictured. The crystal is in great condition. The inside case is stamped "Gallet & Co. - Swiss - Stainless Steel".



www.ebay.com.au





I've fallen a little bit in love with it because jeez its beautiful! However there are a few red-flags you might be able to help me with?

1 - The main-plate is stamped 7734 which from what I understand means it should be a date version. Is there any precedent for Valjoux mixing parts between movements or is this a franken?
2 - I can't spot any import code on the bridge. Can the code be stamped in any other location? Does every watch that leaves the factory get a code or only those which are bound for the USA?
3 - There is no signing on the movement and the bridge/balance cock look a bit manky. Any thoughts on this?

I've spent hours searching for info which can help but now its time to ask the experts.

Thanks!


----------



## GPCRAX

DragonDan said:


> To continue with ridiculous watch parts, to these images I say: have you ever actually seen a Gallet watch???


Good evening.
I'm a little collector "chronograph" and I have 6 Gallet in my collection. Last month I bought from a vintage boutique in Milan one GALLET ( complete with 
authenticity certificate ). the dial is signed GALLET & CO ---- Fabb. suisse.
Next week I have an appointment with a watchmaker to do an appraisal


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## GPCRAX

GPCRAX said:


> Good evening.
> I'm a little collector "chronograph" and I have 6 Gallet in my collection. Last month I bought from a vintage boutique in Milan one GALLET ( complete with
> authenticity certificate ). the dial is signed GALLET & CO ---- Fabb. suisse.
> Next week I have an appointment with a watchmaker to do an appraisal


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## Dan S

GPCRAX said:


> View attachment 15869721


I've never seen one like that before.


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## MoreWatches

Agreed, I don't think the dial is right. Do you have a movement photo? Hopefully it is just a redial.


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## GPCRAX

MoreWatches said:


> Agreed, I don't think the dial is right. Do you have a movement photo? Hopefully it is just a redial.


The mouvement is Landeron 48 - the case is signed gallet and Co.
I spoke with the seller, because I want only original watch ) as per his cetificate ). He told me that the dial is original 1940 more or less because is make with RADIO.
Next week I have an appointement to chheck all components with my watchmaster


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## GPCRAX

Honestly I dont' understand, I bought the watch with revisioned dial, but 1- the seller advaised my - and 2 - is same the original.
Why make one stupid mistake like GALLET & Co ( parently completly wrong )..
Thanks

PS sorry for my inglish, probably is bad!!!


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## Dan S

I am not an expert on Gallet, but I have never seen a Gallet with that dial or case, or movement. It also looks like a different engraving was removed from the inside of the caseback, but it has been obscured so I can't read it.


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## MoreWatches

I've only had a few Gallet chronographs so I'm not an expert but I see quite a few things that don't look right and I don't see anything that looks like I would expect. Hopefully an expert can offer their opinion.


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## GPCRAX

MoreWatches said:


> I've only had a few Gallet chronographs so I'm not an expert but I see quite a few things that don't look right and I don't see anything that looks like I would expect. Hopefully an expert can offer their opinion.


Thank for your feed-back. honestly the watch is nice, but I don't want in my collection one FRANKWatch...


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## GPCRAX

GPCRAX said:


> Thank for your feed-back. honestly the watch is nice, but I don't want in my collection one FRANKWatch...


I will keep you informed after the disassembly and analysis (dial)


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## GPCRAX

The luminor is RADIO and this means that it was produced before 1950, and the question is why with this logo?
The case is original Gallet, the mouvement is basic Landeron 48... I'm agree with you that it's no a normal GALLET, but I think it has a story that deserves to be explored


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## Dan S

I'm not sure why it matters in the context of this particular watch (which has a lot of issues), but for what it's worth, radium was used until the early 1960s in many watches.


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## MoreWatches

Sometimes we hope for a better explanation than the real one. If you like the watch, enjoy wearing it.


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## GSgrant

Hands seem relumed too.


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## GPCRAX

GSgrant said:


> Hands seem relumed too.


Thank for your feedback, I have 4 Gallet and 2 "friends Gallet", 1 Guinand Valjoux 72C and one Excelsior park, I bought this ( I likerd the case ), bucuse if you think it's not one best movement and the dial is...... I don't know.
In any case I have the certificate of origine from the shop-watch, if it's a Franken watch I can change it....


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## Tucayjordan

GALLET with EP42 in a round case:

Someone exchanged the original damaged dial with 45 minutes counter for a redone?? dial with a 30 minutes counter... So the reading of the chronograph function must be quite challenging... 





































P.S. Thank you Mr. Dick Wright for your accurate observation!


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## DragonDan

Gallet has used the L48, but in very limited production figures. To me, the inside caseback looks okay, if poorly done at the factory. The patina of the rings at the center look the same as the rest of the back, so they look original. I'm not sure the movement is correct, though. Even though the dial looks properly aged, Gallet is the only logo wording they ever used, with Gallet & Co showing up on the inside of the watch.


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## Tucayjordan

GALLET DIAL REPRINTED IN THE LAST 60 DAYS...

PLEASE SEE THE IDENTICAL LUME OF THE NUMBERS.

DUE TO ITS PROVENANCE (AGAIN) IS VERY, VERY SAD...









... sold on Ebay...









... 30 June 2021...









... 12 July 2021...

... FOX GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE...


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## Joe_A

Tucayjordan, I want to make sure I understand . . .

The "third watch" is currently shown on the Gallet Facebook page as "A 1st Series Flight Officer with black-on-black dial for distribution to military pilots prior and during WWII." You are a member there so I guess you have seen it there as well.

Looking at only the dial(s), I see that the luminescent material on the indices is identical in each of the three "watches" above and can hardly be otherwise. Studying any one numeral tells the tale. You have a good eye . . . and good records.

The sub-dial blemishes for "watch #1" carry over to "watch #2."

You are suggesting that there is only the one dial.

The"first watch" is most likely the original dial in its original incarnation.
"Second watch" has the same dial, but the central seconds hand has been changed - as has been the bezel.
"Third watch" has completely reworked/reprinted inner dial with new printing on sub-dials and central snail.

Do we agree that the three bezels are unique?

The first "watch" clearly has an all-metal central seconds hand.
The central seconds hands in "watch 2" and "watch 3" may be the same.
The hours and minutes hands for "watch 1" and "watch 2" appear to be the same.
"Watch 3" has either well-repaired or replacement central hours and minutes hands.

So you are suggesting that the original watch (a donor watch?) has been worked over twice and the second time with a reprinted dial, without touching the original lume?

It's a damn good job. Only a dedicated aficionado with a records collected over a period of time and a good eye could catch something like this.

Do you have the serial number of each of the "three watches"?

Comments?

Joe

Edit: Just today, the following explanation was added to the description on the FB page:



> "As no good quality examples were available for photography, the watch is a digital recreation with components derived of a number of different Flight Officer versions from the early 1940s. This was created as a reference for the re-release of the new Flight Officer, now in production, which will again utilize the Clamshell case and be available with 3 different 1st series dial choices. Gallet World members will have exclusive access to the 1st sneak peeks into this exciting project."


I do not wish to add any fuel to any fire.

It's a cautionary tale though.

We should be pleased that there are dedicated students of horology in the community to help the unwitting . . . and by "unwitting," I include myself. ;-)


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## Tucayjordan

Dear Joe,

Thank you very much for your kind post.

It is very easy to change hands, bezels, cases of different watches when they are interchangeable. It takes only a few minutes to do it. In this tread we have seen many examples of "cocktails" of non coetaneous parts in the same watch. In fact the first picture is also a franken Gallet: the sweep second hand and the dial are not coetaneous with the rest of the watch. Its dial was originally assembled in a Gallet Flight Officer post WW2 (please see picture) and the rest of the watch is from circa 1941.










*I have only focused my previous post on the very recent reprinting of the dial, and on the provenance of the reprinted dial.

These "DIAL PRINTING CAPABILITIES" are a huge and real danger to the vintage Gallet aficionados and collectors.

... FOX GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE...*


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## Vinners_77

Dan S said:


> I'm still [barely] able to separate my affection for vintage Gallet watches and my distaste for the practices of the current Gallet company and the people associated with it, but it is becoming more difficult.


Thank you Dan. I thought it was just me and small group of collectors who felt this way. Really sad to see the Brand and co Ran so so poorly. Ive also been bullied just for simply stating some facts which I was then proved to be correct. But i didnt kick up a stink. I was banned, and was given some so called 'friendly advice'. All I asked for was answers and some indication when my watch would be serviced etc. I was very patient and understanding and yet I copped all manner of insults and excuses. Never sagain am i getting so called museum 
service. They overpolished my Snow white and the 12 hour totaliser is stuck. I cant to see what happens next here. Its sad to such a great brand fall into such bad hands Vin.


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## ATD

Good Evening All,
I have been taking a good long look at this Marcus & Co. Chronograph with movement from Gallet. No photos of the movement or caseback were included in the original listing, and when requested, took weeks to produce. One concern I have is that the piece is listed as circa 1930, but the movement is most likely a Venus 150 and not necessarily a Valjoux Ebauch (sic) which I take it would have been a Valjoux 13 Ligne at that time during Gallet's history. It is an attractive watch, but I don't have the expertise to confidently assess its validity. For what it's worth, I consider the seller to be nearly beyond reproach, but this is my first interaction with them. 

Comments appreciated!
ATD


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## Tucayjordan

ATD said:


> Good Evening All,
> I have been taking a good long look at this Marcus & Co. Chronograph with movement from Gallet. No photos of the movement or caseback were included in the original listing, and when requested, took weeks to produce. One concern I have is that the piece is listed as circa 1930, but the movement is most likely a Venus 150 and not necessarily a Valjoux Ebauch (sic) which I take it would have been a Valjoux 13 Ligne at that time during Gallet's history. It is an attractive watch, but I don't have the expertise to confidently assess its validity. For what it's worth, I consider the seller to be nearly beyond reproach, but this is my first interaction with them.
> 
> Comments appreciated!
> ATD


This is a franken-watch that has been assembled with the ORIGINAL case, Venus 150 movement and sweep second and subdials hands from a 1941-1942 Gallet Clamshell chronograph together with NON ORIGINAL dial, crown and minute and hour hands. In my opinion the original parts can be cannibalised, the rest is useless.


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## wwwryan

Afternoon watchuseek. The other day i came across a Gallet Clamshell but was curious about the hands. The chronograph seconds hand is pretty big and lumed. Haven't come across this before on any Gallet chronos and was wondering if it was legit. Relatively new to Gallet and this piece so any help is appreciated as well on the dial, case, etc.


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## Dan S

A fake, I assume, but an interesting one. What the heck is it?


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## rhymanoserous

Looking for info on this example with an unsigned movement. Thanks,


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## Dan S

rhymanoserous said:


> Looking for info on this example with an unsigned movement. Thanks,


It appears to be a Venus 188.


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