# Is Nomos (the brand) high-end?



## shnjb

I saw a Nomos suggestion and thought, hmm is Nomos high end? What will the esteemed high-end collectors here think?


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## eliz

As an owner of a Nomos, nope.
They produce in-house movements, they do well finished watches BUT there are still many intricate things they lack to hit the next level.
I think they sit pretty strongly in the mid-end category which definitely isn't about to change.

The Lamba and Lux though.. are a different story altogether.


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## Crunchy

I thought their selling point was being affordable while having some of the same features as high end counterparts, such as in house, good design and some finishing.


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## GETS

At the risk of Tony20009 tearing his hair out at the use of the arbitrary term "high end" I have voted "no". I base this on having held them and tried them on. The finishing was good - but nowhere near a PP, AP, ALS, or Breguet. If anything they felt a little bit lightweight.


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## mpalmer

No, definitely not high end (although they have dabbled with a couple models in a much higher price range). Nomos is one of the most affordable (non-Asian) watches out there with an in-house movement (their newer automatic versions are more truly original than their first hand winding movement, which is heavily borrowed, but nevertheless still manufactured by Nomos). They are respected by WIS for their iconic bauhaus designs and their in-house movements


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## Sassicaia

I dont think the term high end is arbitrary at all. Personally i cant stand the "if its high end in your eyes then its high end" definition. There are many tangible, objective things that make one watch high end over over another. 

Nomos is a value brand. I doubt that even if you asked someone working for Nomos they would classify themselves as high end in the general sense. Its not their go to market strategy. Its not like they claim to make Pateks for a Nomos price.

Some watches are high end, most are not and some flirt with the line.


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## MattHofstadt

Absolutely, the best quality you can get at the price point, but definitely not high-end.


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## AbuKalb93

After checking their site i have reached my vote and say No. Although their 2 exotic lines are impressive I cannot use that to judge the brand as a whole.


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## systemcrasher

lol i can't believe you made a poll on this. You know where I stand


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## drhr

Not sure (seriously) but over in the German sub forum opinian just linked Dufour's impressions on/of Nomos. The house may or may not be high end, but when you get that kind of unsolicited comment/notice, I don't think it really matters much . . .


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## tony20009

GETS said:


> At the risk of Tony20009 tearing his hair out at the use of the arbitrary term "high end" I have voted "no". I base this on having held them and tried them on. The finishing was good - but nowhere near a PP, AP, ALS, or Breguet. If anything they felt a little bit lightweight.


Off Topic:
I got over the whole "is this or that high end theme." I finally had enough when the Panerai one appeared.

I don't actively participate in them now -- not even to cast a vote -- because I truly don't give a damn what anyone else thinks on the matter and as a result, I'm more likely to take the thread off topic. I know that's rude and somewhat malevolent on my part, so I just read a post here an there and be done. I'll either buy one or I won't based on my own assessment of the watch.

So my hair, what there is of it still (LOL), will remain intact on my head, thank you very much. <winks>

All the best.

He was bored now when Emma suddenly began to sob on his breast; and his heart, like the people who can only stand a certain amount of music, became drowsy through indifference to the vibrations of a love whose subtleties he could no longer distinguish.
- Gustave Flaubert, _Madame Bovary_


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## not12bhere

So everyone has an opinion, and in the interest of humoring the op on a brand I appreciate, let me add mine. Watches should be evaluated individually and not by brand. As it is often applied on these forums, Nomos as a brand is not high end. 

Now on the flip side of that, Nomos with their recently anounced novelties has at least one or two watches which could be talked about openly as high end in this forum with little debate. I don't know if it was a good idea for Nomos. Do they plan to take on GO or ALS or just establish a reputation which includes the ability to manufacture high end dress watches? Either way, Nomos is a great brand and should receive praise for what they do well.


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## davvman

Requirements for a high-end watch, if you don't concider Rolex:

- fine quality basis movement, (partially) in-house movement (e.g. modified Frederic Piguet) respectively exclusive supply (again FP)
- high-end finishing (use of golden ornaments, hand engravings, fine bevels and so on)
- excellent movement quality (column wheel, mass inertia screws and so on)
- precious metal
- reputable brand (Omega, VC, AP, PP, ...as mentioned above)

I'd say, Nomos only meets the first point.


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## Justintime308

Nomos is exactly the type of watch brand that makes categories such as "high end" really arbitrary. There is no need to draw a line on this one.


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## ilikebigbutts

Nobody bar a couple of WIS geeks on teh interwebz would consider Nomos high end. And I absolutely love my grey Orion.


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## davvman

Justintime308 said:


> Nomos is exactly the type of watch brand that makes categories such as "high end" really arbitrary. There is no need to draw a line on this one.


 No need, but a way. I, in my oppinion, have a very clear line, beyond that watches are high-end. Probably you guys also have.
So, for example, if a watch carries 100 grams of diamonds, but is driven by a ETA 7750, I'd not concider it high-end.


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## shnjb

Only 14% have answered yes so far.


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## not12bhere

While I think the poll is interesting, I would like to reiterate for posterity, and future search engine results of potential future wis, that Nomos not being high end does not reflect poorly on the brand. In fact, many Nomos watches are a great value, brand judgements are fun to debate but ultimately without "real" usefullness. Nomos should be praised for bringing quality german watches into the sub 10k price range.

-Says an ALS owner with no Nomos watches. . .


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## drhr

I don't know, but the good thing so far is that apparently most think not. I'll let Nomos know so they don't start thinking otherwise and gettin' it in their head to raise prices to somehow qualify/prove it true . . .;-)


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## lethaltoes

shnjb said:


> Only 14% have answered yes so far.


I'm absolutely positive that percentage would have been MUCH higher if they had actually listened to my suggestion to ditch that coffin case of a watch box (honestly!! I did write to them).


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## eliz

lethaltoes said:


> I'm absolutely positive that percentage would have been MUCH higher if they had actually listened to my suggestion to ditch that coffin case of a watch box (honestly!! I did write to them).


I don't see a reason why they should ditch that box though. 
It has already been synonymously linked with the brand and it suits their Bauhaus aesthetics perfectly.


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## lethaltoes

eliz said:


> I don't see a reason why they should ditch that box though.
> It has already been synonymously linked with the brand and it suits their Bauhaus aesthetics perfectly.


The reason is simple. Although I can't say for sure, my first purchase from Nomos came with a scratch to the case side. I suspect that it MAY have been damaged by the box itself. The way the watch is laid in the box allows for too much movement. Coupled with the fact that there is only a very thin layer of felt lining, I am quite certain that there'll be plenty of knocking about within the case during transportation (the watch head does exhibit good weight despite its size after all). Also, where the push button opener is located on the box, the metallic fasteners within are covered with the very same flimsy layer of felt (very DIY in appearance). On the first box, the felt material may have come loss but I can definitely see some exposed metallic bits. Whether that caused the scratch I wouldn't know. Nomos CS was very nice and told me to send it back to them so they could sort it out. No questions asked.

The subsequent ones I made sure the dealer provided a protective film around the watch head, case and lugs. Still, the third box arrived with a problem. It wouldn't shut. On closer inspection, the problem appears to be the hinges to the watch case causing the lid to be slightly misaligned.

I like the watches for sure but that case is just plain poor and flimsy. Bear in mind that these were all bought late 2012 / early 2013. I can't be sure no improvements have been made of late addressing these issues but if not, they should.

Cheers!


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## shnjb

I don't see how a box could change the opinions of people who probably don't own nomos anyway.


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## CM HUNTER

In my opinion, high end means price and quality TOGETHER and nothing more (not just with timepieces, but with everything). All Nomos have the quality credentials, but only the two latest models have the price requirement as well (which is how I voted).

Orient has an in-house movement, and I still wouldn't call them high end judging by quality and price.

Grand Seiko has supreme quality and prices to match. They are high end to me. The fact that they have in-house movements is just a bonus.


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## not12bhere

CM HUNTER said:


> In my opinion, high end means price and quality TOGETHER and nothing more (not just with timepieces, but with everything). All Nomos have the quality credentials, but only the two latest models have the price requirement (which is how I voted).
> 
> Orient has an in-house movement, and I still wouldn't call them high end judging by quality and price.
> 
> Grand Seiko has supreme quality and a prices to match. They are high end to me. The fact that they have in-house movements is just a bonus.


I see this sentiment a lot. I find it interesting. My question regarding this concept of high end is how would you judge a Patek Calatrava or ALS Lange 1 if they sold for 5 or 10k? Would they no longer be high end even with the same fit and finish levels at the new price? What if JLC sold the annual calendar for 4K? Is price a determiner of exclusivity, and if so, is it ok that Patek still sells 50K or more watches a year at their price point? If price matters, how much and what are the lines? As it relates to Nomos, if they priced their new offerings which have significant finishing at 30K how would this approach to classification judge those? I fall into the thought process that watches should be graded individually on their merits independant of price but I am never closed off from being convinced otherwise.


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## CM HUNTER

not12bhere said:


> I see this sentiment a lot. I find it interesting. My question regarding this concept of high end is how would you judge a Patek Calatrava or ALS Lange 1 if they sold for 5 or 10k? Would they no longer be high end even with the same fit and finish levels at the new price? What if JLC sold the annual calendar for 4K? Is price a determiner of exclusivity, and if so, is it ok that Patek still sells 50K or more watches a year at their price point? If price matters, how much and what are the lines? As it relates to Nomos, if they priced their new offerings which have significant finishing at 30K how would this approach to classification judge those? I fall into the thought process that watches should be graded individually on their merits independant of price but I am never closed off from being convinced otherwise.


The brands you mention have a reputation of supreme quality (ties into one of my high end credentials). The movements in these watches in particular does have a bearing on the price, but I think it's more a case of how well the movements are done (quality again). I mean, even though the movement in the Saxonia for instance is wonderful, it's not a grand complication by no means and yet it's still a $24,000 watch. Their reputation for quality build and quality materials will always keep their prices as they are... quality + price = high end.


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## Mediocre

As has been stated multiple times at this point, Nomos offers a fantastic value on quality, in-house movement watches. They look wonderful, especially for the value they offer. They are not, however, high end. In my mind they are not even close to being high end.


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## drhr

Wow, you guys, I'm glad I don't care as much about what is and isn't. If I did, this could be really confusing . . .


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## not12bhere

Ok, we should consider letting this thread go as it will already be incredibly confusing to new WIS in the future who are researching for their first German watch. That said, I want to point out some visual images to exemplify my issue with the poll results and the idea of examining brands to determine if they are "high end" versus individual watches.

I present you with Exhibit A, the in-house movement for the newly announced Nomos novelty, the Lambda in White Gold.








84 hour power reserve
6 jewels in gold chatons
Twin Mainspring Barrels
Hand-engraved balance cock
(Sound Familiar to another I/SA Offering?)

The Case/Dial:









The poll says this watch is not "high end." I firmly do not believe it is up to I/SA ALS level, but how can this specific watch, as covered by the poll, be not "high end" if JLC movement watches are?

Is there a 'halo' effect with this poll? By this I mean, if you are a WIS and have actually held prior Nomos watches and therefore immediately feel the brand is not "high end," do you choose that poll option not knowing anything about this new watch? In the end I am saying if the above watch, which I am guessing will retail somewhere in the 20K realm is not "high end," how is a GO offering or a JLC?


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## drhr

not12bhere said:


> Ok, we should consider letting this thread go as it will already be incredibly *confusing to new WIS* in the future who are researching for their first German watch. That said, I want to point out some visual images to exemplify my issue with the poll results and the idea of examining brands to determine if they are "high end" versus individual watches.
> 
> I present you with Exhibit A, the in-house movement for the newly announced Nomos novelty, the Lambda in White Gold.
> 
> 84 hour power reserve
> 6 jewels in gold chatons
> Twin Mainspring Barrels
> Hand-engraved balance cock
> (Sound Familiar to another I/SA Offering?)
> 
> The Case/Dial:
> 
> The poll says this watch is not "high end." I firmly do not believe it is up to I/SA ALS level, but how can this specific watch, as covered by the poll, be not "high end" if JLC movement watches are?
> 
> Is there a 'halo' effect with this poll? By this I mean, if you are a WIS and have actually held prior Nomos watches and therefore immediately feel the brand is not "high end," do you choose that poll option not knowing anything about this new watch? In the end I am saying if the above watch, which I am guessing will retail somewhere in the 20K realm is not "high end," how is a GO offering or a JLC?


 Questions on point. And never mind messin' with the minds of new folk, what about us old fart watchaholics?:think: . . .


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## entropy96

not12bhere said:


> Is there a 'halo' effect with this poll? By this I mean, if you are a WIS and have actually held prior Nomos watches and therefore immediately feel the brand is not "high end," do you choose that poll option not knowing anything about this new watch? In the end I am saying if the above watch, which I am guessing will retail somewhere in the 20K realm is not "high end," how is a GO offering or a JLC?


Now herein lies the issue with the definition of a high-end watch.

Compare the Nomos Lambda/Lux movement to that of a basic 3-hands JLC Master Control.
The Lambda/Lux is superior in almost every way: Finishing, design, features.
The price perfectly reflects this.

Now, knowing this fact, would you still consider the basic 3-hands JLC Master Control in SS case which retails for under $6k a high-end watch?
If we replace the JLC name with another brand like Seiko/Tissot/Tag Heuer, would you still consider the 3-hands Master Control a high-end watch?


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## not12bhere

Entropy,
I think you make a great point. Is the JLC MC three hand in SS a "high end" watch when evaluated on the merits of just the watch? I know it is a very sensitive topic, but potentially it is not appropriate to consider it as such. I think the example reinforces the concept of a watch by watch, and not brand by brand, evaluation being the appropriate approach in these forums. 

Going to the most extreme example; the unassailable Patek. I appreciate Patek, but is a diamond encrusted stainless steel quartz watch at any price point "high end?"


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## malioil

No. They are a solid, mid range brand that produces value (relativley) watches with in house movements. 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## shnjb

The discussion about high end definition vs haute horlogerie seems appropriate.
I think that most of nomos watches except the recent two models are neither expensive nor haute horlogerie.


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## dchao14

No. They have quality issues, mine came with 2 screws missing on the case back. Couldn't believe it. Other than that, it's a very nice watch.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## not12bhere

dchao14 said:


> No. They have quality issues, mine came with 2 screws missing on the case back. Couldn't believe it. Other than that, it's a very nice watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Dchao, that is really disappointing to read. Nomos isn't high end, but they must have had a serious "cluster" at the manufacture the day your watch was finished for your watch to end up in final packaging in that condition.


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## Dermott

This past year I purchased a Nomos for my wife as a birthday gift (yes, I took considerable ribbing for buying her a watch she assumed I wanted for myself). Having a Nomos in "our" possession and having observed it up close, I don't believe it qualifies as high-end; though arguably it's impeccably finished and a quality product. They truly are a great company offering a product that's a tremendous value. 

In reading the previous posts, I too feel that each watch should be judged on its own merit, versus the brand as a whole. However, I do think that several brands have such a reputation and historical precedent that even their simpler watches qualify as "high-end". I'd personally put JLC in this sphere. The three-hand SS MC may be low high-end, but I'd still qualify it as such. While not every JLC is is a masterwork, likewise, none are just average, either. With Nomos, as with many other brands, it falls to the relative merits of the model in question. Seeing my thoughts articulated on the page, I acknowledge my perspective is subjective.

BTW: I love their box as it's consistent with the theme of their watches. Simple, utilitarian, spare. The manual they enclose is fantastic as well, in many respects personifying the watch.


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## Will_f

High end is, well, pretty high end. If you look at a Patek, ALS, etc, a Nomos isn't in the same league. That said, I still consider them excellent watches and a (relative) bargain. I will also say that none of my watches, including my much more expensive Rolexes compete with PP, ALS, or most of the other high enders when it comes to the movement.


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## Burnman57

High level of finish, quality parts and in-house movements. If that's your definition of high-end, then yes. If price dictates your definition, then no. Should you buy one? Yes.


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## dbostedo

Burnman57 said:


> High level of finish, quality parts and in-house movements. If that's your definition of high-end, then yes. If price dictates your definition, then no. Should you buy one? Yes.


Most folks on here, who don't base high-end only on price, would disagree with Nomos being high-end (as the rest of the thread can attest). I disagree too. The movement finishing is not to a high enough level. I love my Nomos, but they aren't competing with high-end brands, outside of, perhaps, the Lambda and Lux.


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## DoraTheExplorerII

They are handsome and one of the nicest watches in the Bauhaus style, but no they are not high end. There is not enough extra handwork to distinguish them from other watches with decent QC.


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## MDNoobie

Nomos is like Tutima in that though the brand is not positioned as a high-end one, the firm produces some high-end watches.


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## SethThomas

The Brand is a No

But do they dabble in High End watches?

Yes, the Lambda is certainly in the category. I haven't seen the Lux.


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## Pun

It's movement finish is quite industrial barring few high end pieces that don't represent the brand IMO. The bulk of the products are meant for the beginners in this field.


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## JesseBertone

I think it's safe to say they're mid-tier. Not low end but not high end. Definitely good quality IMO.


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## Pliskin01

I would say Nomos is a tier 3 (out of 5) brand with the Lambda & Lux reaching the top end of tier 2. Similar to Credor. 

If the Lambda/Lux used German Silver, it would be a very similar-looking movement to ALS.


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## mlcor

Pliskin01 said:


> I would say Nomos is a tier 3 (out of 5) brand with the Lambda & Lux reaching the top end of tier 2. Similar to Credor.
> 
> If the Lambda/Lux used German Silver, it would be a very similar-looking movement to ALS.


"Similar to Credor?" Umm, no. Lambda and Lux are nice pieces, but before you compare their level of finish with a Credor Eichi II, please do some research on the latter.


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## GrouchoM

Do all Credor timepieces attain the level of horology as the Eichis?


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## mlcor

GrouchoM said:


> Do all Credor timepieces attain the level of horology as the Eichis?


No, there are many lower end models. My point was if you are comparing the top end of the Nomos range (Lambda and Lux) to the top end of the Credor range, there simply is no comparison.

Not knocking Nomos, but they aren't spending days hand finishing their Lambda/Lux movements with wooden sticks...


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## KtWUS

The Lambda and Lux are fine pieces, but to my eye ALS and VC (among the usual suspects) have better finishing at similar price points. The distinctive thing is that they are high-end watches that have a consistent design language with the rest of the Nomos line up. Less luxurious and more modern in feeling than the ALS offerings.


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## Pliskin01

mlcor said:


> "Similar to Credor?" Umm, no. Lambda and Lux are nice pieces, but before you compare their level of finish with a Credor Eichi II, please do some research on the latter.


Sorry, I should make it clear that I meant both brands have lower and higher end pieces. They both make mass-market watches with a few high-end halo pieces. There's obviously no comparison between the specific high-end pieces from each brand.


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## TPINEIRO66

Would it be fair to say that a BMW M series is not hi end because it is not a Ferrari? I think a big part of the term Hi End is getting the best you can within your budget. Why speak of Patek and AP when 85% of collectors cannot afford. There will always be better things and with more history but being new and innovative does not detract from your merit.


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## Pongster

Even the people behind Nomos don’t consider it high end, i think.

i still propose to make the high end classification objective by using MSRP as basis.  like what we have done for affordables.


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## malioil

If all Nomos produced were pieces on the Lambda and Lux then I'd say yes, they're high end. But those are very much halo products within a very high quality albeit certainly not high-end category. 

High end in the real world and high end in the watch world are two very different things. I mean, we don't even discuss Rolex on this board!


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## Zama

CM HUNTER said:


> In my opinion, high end means price and quality TOGETHER and nothing more (not just with timepieces, but with everything). All Nomos have the quality credentials, but only the two latest models have the price requirement as well (which is how I voted).
> 
> Orient has an in-house movement, and I still wouldn't call them high end judging by quality and price.
> 
> *Grand Seiko has supreme quality and prices to match. They are high end to me. The fact that they have in-house movements is just a bonus.*


Machine finished movements, no? Crazy to me to consider GS as high end


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## Pongster

CM HUNTER said:


> In my opinion, high end means price and quality TOGETHER and nothing more (not just with timepieces, but with everything). All Nomos have the quality credentials, but only the two latest models have the price requirement as well (which is how I voted).
> 
> Orient has an in-house movement, and I still wouldn't call them high end judging by quality and price.
> 
> Grand Seiko has supreme quality and prices to match. They are high end to me. The fact that they have in-house movements is just a bonus.


what's the SRP of the lux and lamdbda?


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## Pongster

@Earthjade can tell us where Nomos ranks in the pantheon of watches.


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## Pongster

Pongster said:


> @Earthjade can tell us where Nomos ranks in the pantheon of watches.


and for that matter, also Credor.


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## dbostedo

Pongster said:


> what's the SRP of the lux and lamdbda?


Lux, $19,500 - $21,500
Lambda, $17,000 - $20,000 in gold, $7500 in steel (limited edition I think)


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## Pongster

dbostedo said:


> Lux, $19,500 - $21,500
> Lambda, $17,000 - $20,000 in gold, $7500 in steel (limited edition I think)


those qualify as high end in my objective book. 

which leads me to a question: is it the brand that is classified as high end? Or the specific watch?


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## dbostedo

Pongster said:


> those qualify as high end in my objective book.


I'd agree, but based on design and finishing, not just price.



Pongster said:


> which leads me to a question: is it the brand that is classified as high end? Or the specific watch?


Specific watches. If Patek made a $10 plastic watch for some reason, that wouldn't mean all their other watches are suddenty not high-end. Nor would it mean the $10 plastic watch is high-end. And if they charge $100K for the plastic watch, it wouldn't make that watch high-end either.


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## Pongster

dbostedo said:


> I'd agree, but based on design and finishing, not just price.
> 
> Specific watches. If Patek made a $10 plastic watch for some reason, that wouldn't mean all their other watches are suddenty not high-end. Nor would it mean the $10 plastic watch is high-end. And if they charge $100K for the plastic watch, it wouldn't make that watch high-end either.


what is the cheapest acceptable price for a brand new high end watch?


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## dbostedo

Pongster said:


> what is the cheapest acceptable price for a brand new high end watch?


$0.01 if it's designed and finished and made as a high end watch, and that's what it's priced at.

In reality, I'm not sure what the cheapest high-end watch is... there are some older threads on here that try to figure that out. But it's fuzzy.


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## Pun

Pongster said:


> what is the cheapest acceptable price for a brand new high end watch?


I would rather look at the pedigree, hand finish, quality standard and/or complications that define high-end watch. Price, per se, has very little to contribute to high-end criterion. Some committed person or brand may price their watch higher or lower than what it ought to be and it'll not at all change its criteria, high or low end. Money plays, sometimes, important role but it can't define anything of value alone.


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## Earthjade

In the original graphic for the tier list I adapted, Nomos was placed at "Entry-Level Luxury" and I agree with that.
The "price of entry" into Nomos is slightly higher than the price of entry for brands like Longines, Oris or Sinn.

Credor is weird.
You can get Quartz models brand new for under $2500 and then they have their Haute Horology stuff that rivals Jaquet Droz for like $50K.
I put them in "High-End Luxury" but I have a problem trying to rank brands that have a wide range of cheaper stuff along with a wide range of exorbitant flagship models.

Oh and my arbitrary dollar value for an ultra-luxury high-end watch would be $20K per average unit.
Two reasons:

1) All the holy trinity meet this criteria (VC only just)
2) It keeps Hublot out of the tier (they are $18K)


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## Pongster

dbostedo said:


> $0.01 if it's designed and finished and made as a high end watch, and that's what it's priced at.
> 
> In reality, I'm not sure what the cheapest high-end watch is... there are some older threads on here that try to figure that out. But it's fuzzy.


of course the subjective debate on what constitutes high end has raged and will continue to rage. i just liken it to art, **** or beauty. Cant fully define but i know it when i see it.

it just made me wonder. All these high end elements: movement, finishing, complications, materials, etc - they are reflected in the pricing. That's why to me the MSRP could be an objective criterion. Not the market value.


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## dbostedo

Pongster said:


> it just made me wonder. All these high end elements: movement, finishing, complications, materials, etc - they are reflected in the pricing. That's why to me the MSRP could be an objective criterion. Not the market value.


That's a good thought... the problem is the price gets skewed a lot by a couple of factors that may or may not factor into a watch being high-end:

1) Precious metals - Usually a factor in high-end or not, but has an inordinate effect on price compared to other factors. So you could wind up mis-categorizing a lot of high priced precious metal watches that are not really high-end, if price is your primary criteria.

2) Marketing - If a brand is popular enough, you could have very high prices regardless of whether or not the watches are, or should be, considered high-end

Taking these two things together, and you could get a skewed picture of what constitutes high-end (for the purposes of this forum); Or you consider a lot of expensive watches high-end, when that's the only criteria they meet.


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## wintershade

Nice but relatively basic hand finishing. No high complications, not even mid complications. Not high end. Great watches though. I own a dozen or so and wear them often as my “nice” beaters.


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## kritameth

TPINEIRO66 said:


> Would it be fair to say that a BMW M series is not hi end because it is not a Ferrari? I think a big part of the term Hi End is getting the best you can within your budget. Why speak of Patek and AP when 85% of collectors cannot afford. There will always be better things and with more history but being new and innovative does not detract from your merit.


Yes and no. High-end to you? Possibly. High-end to the community? A different story.


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## Pongster

dbostedo said:


> That's a good thought... the problem is the price gets skewed a lot by a couple of factors that may or may not factor into a watch being high-end:
> 
> 1) Precious metals - Usually a factor in high-end or not, but has an inordinate effect on price compared to other factors. So you could wind up mis-categorizing a lot of high priced precious metal watches that are not really high-end, if price is your primary criteria.
> 
> 2) Marketing - If a brand is popular enough, you could have very high prices regardless of whether or not the watches are, or should be, considered high-end
> 
> Taking these two things together, and you could get a skewed picture of what constitutes high-end (for the purposes of this forum); Or you consider a lot of expensive watches high-end, when that's the only criteria they meet.


to distill this further in order to come up with a better crierion, let's say we (the pretender gods of WUS  ) set the bar at USD20K MSRP.

1. What watches would end up being mis-classified as high end under the PM and marketing factors you mentioned?

2. What possibly high end watches wouldnt pass the bar?

then we can try another iteration.


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## dbostedo

Pongster said:


> to distill this further in order to come up with a better crierion, let's say we (the pretender gods of WUS  ) set the bar at USD20K MSRP.
> 
> 1. What watches would end up being mis-classified as high end under the PM and marketing factors you mentioned?
> 
> 2. What possibly high end watches wouldnt pass the bar?
> 
> then we can try another iteration.


1) A lot of precious metal Rolex, Omega, Zenith, Breitling, etc.

2) Some of the cheaper ALS, Breguet, Patek, and lots of GO, UN, BP, etc.


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## Mediocre

Pongster said:


> to distill this further in order to come up with a better crierion, let's say we (the pretender gods of WUS  ) set the bar at USD20K MSRP.
> 
> 1. What watches would end up being mis-classified as high end under the PM and marketing factors you mentioned?
> 
> 2. What possibly high end watches wouldnt pass the bar?
> 
> then we can try another iteration.


At that bar height, my collection is the undisputed KING of limbo....because they all walk under the bar without even bending ?


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## Pongster

dbostedo said:


> 1) A lot of precious metal Rolex, Omega, Zenith, Breitling, etc.
> 
> 2) Some of the cheaper ALS, Breguet, Patek, and lots of GO, UN, BP, etc.


is it the premise that none of Rolex, Omega, Zenith and Breitling produce high end watches? Maybe let's give an example of one particular watch so we can distill further.

is it likewise the premise that ALS, Breguet, Patek, GO, UN and BP only produce high end watches? Also, best to have an example of a particular watch so we can distill further.


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## dbostedo

Pongster said:


> is it the premise that none of Rolex, Omega, Zenith and Breitling produce high end watches? Maybe let's give an example of one particular watch so we can distill further.
> 
> is it likewise the premise that ALS, Breguet, Patek, GO, UN and BP only produce high end watches? Also, best to have an example of a particular watch so we can distill further.


Eh... it was easier to throw out some generalizations. I didn't mean to imply that all watches from any of those brands fit any one category (though some brands may).

To be a little more specific, an Omega PM tourbillon would be high-end watch in this forum (I think based on my read), but a PM Speedmaster would not. Perhaps the most obvious examples are PM Rolex sports watches. A gold Submariner is $37K, and is not high-end as it's generally defined here.

On the other side, there are quite a few cheaper watches that would be considered high-end per this forum (and me)... For instance, the 35mm ALS Saxonia would generally be considered high-end based on materials and finishing, and retails for like $16K.


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## mlcor

dbostedo said:


> On the other side, there are quite a few cheaper watches that would be considered high-end per this forum (and me)... For instance, the 35mm ALS Saxonia would generally be considered high-end based on materials and finishing, and retails for like $16K.


&#8230;as would the Vacheron Constantin Traditionelle, also well under $20k.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gangrel

Pongster said:


> to distill this further in order to come up with a better crierion, let's say we (the pretender gods of WUS  ) set the bar at USD20K MSRP.
> 
> 1. What watches would end up being mis-classified as high end under the PM and marketing factors you mentioned?
> 
> 2. What possibly high end watches wouldnt pass the bar?
> 
> then we can try another iteration.


1. As was noted, lots of precious metal examples. Omega's got a platinum Seamaster with a malachite dial for $40K. There are also some two-tone Constellations in steel and gold that are just under $20K. Hublot's all-sapphire cases. Heck, there's a couple Casio G-Shocks done in ALL sapphire...case and bracelet...for $100K. Ralph Lauren has a couple ladies' models that probably wouldn't count but are over 20K, and their 39 mm automotive (which is a VERY nice looking piece, mind) is over $15k. No, doesn't meet the criteria, but it should help emphasize the point that price isn't a great driver.

2. Most JLC Master models in steel, and without a major complication. I think there are a few Grand Seiko Heritage models in steel, finished by the Micro Artist Studio to Haute Horlogerie standards, but perhaps most of these are in precious metals and thus well over $20K. The vast majority of Bulgari Octo Finissimos. Steel Piaget Polo. Parmigiani 1950 in steel...even the meteorite dials are, IIRC, < $20K.


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## Pongster

gangrel said:


> 1. As was noted, lots of precious metal examples. Omega's got a platinum Seamaster with a malachite dial for $40K. There are also some two-tone Constellations in steel and gold that are just under $20K. Hublot's all-sapphire cases. Heck, there's a couple Casio G-Shocks done in ALL sapphire...case and bracelet...for $100K. Ralph Lauren has a couple ladies' models that probably wouldn't count but are over 20K, and their 39 mm automotive (which is a VERY nice looking piece, mind) is over $15k. No, doesn't meet the criteria, but it should help emphasize the point that price isn't a great driver.
> 
> 2. Most JLC Master models in steel, and without a major complication. I think there are a few Grand Seiko Heritage models in steel, finished by the Micro Artist Studio to Haute Horlogerie standards, but perhaps most of these are in precious metals and thus well over $20K. The vast majority of Bulgari Octo Finissimos. Steel Piaget Polo. Parmigiani 1950 in steel...even the meteorite dials are, IIRC, < $20K.


that begs the question- what are the criteria? what are the standards?


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## Mediocre

Pongster said:


> that begs the question- what are the criteria? what are the standards?


To boil it down, the attribute that I see that seems to typically be the sticking point is decoration/finishing, especially on the dial, hands, and movement.

Not taking a stand here, just trying to remove the other criteria often mentioned (that brands like Rolex and Omega meet) such as in-house, precious metals, and case quality.

It seems to me that it almost always sticks there in these conversations


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## CM HUNTER

Zama said:


> Machine finished movements, no? Crazy to me to consider GS as high end


I've said it 1000 times. The movement is only a part of a watch. Is the finishing not done to high end standards? Are the intricate dials not done to high end standards? The engineering behind the movements should hold some weight as well if fixating on the movement is priority. I think GS has that more than taken care of.


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