# Seiko "J" vs "K" - is it worth it?



## Moose-32 (Aug 2, 2006)

Do people feel that buying a Seiko Diver "J" version is worth it over a "K". For example, does it make sense to buy a SKX009J or merely go with a SKX009K which are less expensive. I think/realize "J" stands for Japan and "K" for Korea but do you get any better quality or warranty? What is the difference?

Any thoughts would be great.

Thank you.


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## HABEEB (Jul 20, 2006)

K aint standing for korea.. is just made outside japan...
is the same quality in both watches.. so shouldnt make any difference where was manufactured


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## Moose-32 (Aug 2, 2006)

HABEEB said:


> K aint standing for korea.. is just made outside japan...
> is the same quality in both watches.. so shouldnt make any difference where was manufactured


Ok, thank you. Why the price difference? What do you get with a "J" (implicitly or explicitly)?

:thanks


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## roberev (Mar 15, 2006)

I thought "K" meant it was made in Singapore, but either way, Habeeb is right that "K" means it wasn't made in Japan.

I think it is an issue of manufacture quality, the belief being that Japan has better manufacture controls and, therefore, produces a better-assembled watch . . . even though all of the components in "K" and "J" models may come from the same place.

I have had three SKX171Ks and all were very qood quality. In the end, I really don't care whether it's a "K" or a "J" as I've had equally good success with both. A "J" is more desirable on the resale market, so for that reason you might lean toward a "J" if the prices are equal, but I definitely wouldn't buy a "J" when a less expensive "K" is available.

Rob


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

Robverv is correct K does not mean Korea, It means Singapore/Malaysia. And no, in lower end models, such as 76 divers, there is no perceptible difference between watches assembled in Japan versus those assembled in a Seiko factory located elsewhere.

Watches of this type assembled in Japan command higher prices largely as a result of buyer ignorance or prejudice. Some people feel that if they are going to buy a watch from a japanese brand that it should be made in Japan. Others erroneously feel that because a product is made in japan it is automatically of better quality than one that isn't. Lastly some even go as far as to think that because a watch is not manufactured in japan that it is likely to be a fake.

The truth is that there is no difference. Even those models assembled in Japan used parts and modules manufactured elsewhere.

Now, when speaking of higher end models things change. Many of seiko's high end model and japanese market models are exclusively manufactured (notice I didn't say assembled) in japan, to much higher and stricter tolerances than their less expensive volume products.

To my knowledge, Seiko does not manufacture any of its high end models outside of japan.


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

You guys are right, there is no functional difference. Both are made on robotic assembly lines (so are Rolex, so there's not too much difference?) and the robots pay no attention whatsoever as to where they are located.

And they're not union organized, either. 

JohnF


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## steven carr (Mar 20, 2007)

I prefer the K just because the dial is less cluttered w/o the "21 jewels" line


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## skyWalker (Oct 15, 2006)

What's the price difference ?


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## HABEEB (Jul 20, 2006)

like max 10%


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

skyWalker said:


> What's the price difference ?


It varies between models, but as was said, 10% to 20% is about right.


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## skyWalker (Oct 15, 2006)

When I was shopping for my SKX009, I went straight for the "J" model because like what you guys said the price difference is max 20%. The "J" model is rearer, in fact many shops don't carry the "J" model nowadays. Also I also found out that the "J" model command a higher re-sale value (not that I'm selling it, I think I'll kep my for a very long time).


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## pjemmert (Jun 3, 2007)

JohnF said:


> Hi -
> 
> You guys are right, there is no functional difference. Both are made on robotic assembly lines (so are Rolex, so there's not too much difference?) and the robots pay no attention whatsoever as to where they are located.
> 
> ...


All Rolex's are NOT made by robotic arms. I personally picked my Sub at the factory, and while there (being a "legacy" customer), received a tour.

:-!


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## Seikopath (Jun 19, 2007)

Isthmus said:


> Now, when speaking of higher end models things change. Many of seiko's high end model and japanese market models are exclusively manufactured (notice I didn't say assembled) in japan, to much higher and stricter tolerances than their less expensive volume products.
> 
> To my knowledge, Seiko does not manufacture any of its high end models outside of japan.


Very interesting. I just ordered an SBDA001, while the SBDA001J was only four more US dollars.

This is the TITANIUM SAMURAI that I speak of. AFAIK, this is a JAPAN ONLY model, and I was told that they are ALL made in Japan. I am not sure if this is to be considered one of their "higher end models" that you speak of.

So, if both of these SAMURAIS are made in JAPAN, what does the "J" Suffix mean? Thanks.


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

Seikopath said:


> Very interesting. I just ordered an SBDA001, while the SBDA001J was only four more US dollars.
> 
> This is the TITANIUM SAMURAI that I speak of. AFAIK, this is a JAPAN ONLY model, and I was told that they are ALL made in Japan. I am not sure if this is to be considered one of their "higher end models" that you speak of.
> 
> So, if both of these SAMURAIS are made in JAPAN, what does the "J" Suffix mean? Thanks.


Nope, samurai are just a step above entry level ISO divers. Nice watches but not high end. The TI models are for the Japanese domestic market and are most likely assembled in Japan. However, much of their componentry is probably manufactured in a seiko factory elsewhere in Asia.


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## Seikopath (Jun 19, 2007)

Isthmus said:


> Nope, samurai are just a step above entry level ISO divers.


What are "ISO" divers? I have only heard the term, "ISO" used in film speeds. It stands for International Organization for Standardization (ISO) (Yeah, the letters are in the wrong order for that Acronym, which is pretty wrong, if you ask me...)

While I'm at it - what does "NATO" mean in NATO STRAPS? Is it also an acronym, like, "*North Atlantic Treaty Organisation*"?


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## HABEEB (Jul 20, 2006)

nato straps reffers to straps looking like the ones issued to military watches..

iso means to any standard...the most known is iso9001 wich is the management of quality... a diving watch must be built to some standards... check the diver watches section... theres a thread called wich diver.. read there


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

HABEEB said:


> iso means to any standard...the most known is iso9001 wich is the management of quality... a diving watch must be built to some standards... check the diver watches section... theres a thread called wich diver.. read there


That is not correct. ISO does not mean any standard. In fact, when speaking about dive watches, it very specifically means the *I*nternational *S*tandards *O*rganization standard number 6425 from 1996, which sets the minimum construction and performance requirements for scuba diving watches.

Have a look at the link below to have a read of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's official standard for diving watches number 2891 from 2003. It is practically a verbatim copy of the ISO 6425/1996:

https://213.210.232.121/prj/Dell-26.pdf


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## wickedsprint (Jun 27, 2007)

I personally prefer the K version with the Spanish date, don't much care for the Arabic wording.


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## HABEEB (Jul 20, 2006)

Isthmus said:


> That is not correct. ISO does not mean any standard. In fact, when speaking about dive watches, it very specifically means the *I*nternational *S*tandards *O*rganization standard number 6425 from 1996, which sets the minimum construction and performance requirements for scuba diving watches.
> 
> Have a look at the link below to have a read of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's official standard for diving watches number 2891 from 2003. It is practically a verbatim copy of the ISO 6425/1996:
> 
> https://213.210.232.121/prj/Dell-26.pdf


people who are into watches KNOW that ISO when talking about diving watches mean that 6425 rule.. the correct name tho is ISO 6425
the ISO for cd rom media is ISO 9660 and so on... NOT just <<iso>> name droped in a phrase..


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

HABEEB said:


> people who are into watches KNOW that ISO when talking about diving watches mean that 6425 rule.. the correct name tho is ISO 6425. the ISO for cd rom media is ISO 9660 and so on... NOT just <<iso>> name droped in a phrase..


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this was a pissing contest. The question was asked in reference to watches so I answered it in the intent that it was asked - and yes I used the correct standard name (which includes the year - but of course you knew that). Still ISO does not stand for any standard as you claim, but (since we're pissing into the wind here), any standard defined by the International Standards Organization. Any standard defined by any other organization would not qualify.

Now since we are in a pissing contest. Let me correct your other incorrect response:



HABEEB said:


> nato straps reffers to straps looking like the ones issued to military watches..


Nato straps refer very SPECIFICALLY to ONE particular type of four ring, one piece nylon strap. Since the introduction of that design the definition has been expanded to include variations on that design with fewer rings (or different shaped rings and or in varying finishes) and made of other materials such as leather.

Still, a Nato is NOT the same thing as a ZULU, design which is another type of military inspired nylon strap; nor is it the same as a Rhino; nor is it the same as a waterborne; nor is it the same as a traditional REAL nylon military strap (which is more of a standard 2-piece design built out of heavy woven nylon).

Of course I'm sure that's what you meant by your post, but since this is a pissing contest, I just figured I'd be a bit more specific.


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## vintagewatchfiend (Aug 17, 2007)

What about the standard SKX007 without the 'J' or 'K'?
Any difference in quality there?
Are they made in the US?


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

vintagewatchfiend said:


> What about the standard SKX007 without the 'J' or 'K'. Any difference in quality there?
> Are they made in the US?


No and no.


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## vintagewatchfiend (Aug 17, 2007)

Strange!
The prices vary greatly if you search "SKX007" and "SKX007k" and "SKX007J"
on eBay!


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

vintagewatchfiend said:


> Strange!
> The prices vary greatly if you search "SKX007" and "SKX007k" and "SKX007J"
> on eBay!


read the prior posts on this thread. this is addressed above.


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## vintagewatchfiend (Aug 17, 2007)

I did, but what struck me is that the plain '007' Designation is MUCH cheaper (in the 90 dollar range) than the '007K', or '007J' models.
Wasn't sure if there was something I was missing


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

vintagewatchfiend said:


> I did, but what struck me is that the plain '007' Designation is MUCH cheaper (in the 90 dollar range) than the '007K', or '007J' models.
> Wasn't sure if there was something I was missing


yes you are missing something. there is no "plain" 007. The cheapest new 007's go for is in the $100-$125 range from south east asia based sellers (mainly singapore based). while you might on occasion get lucky and land a deal that is not the norm. The only place where you can regularly find 007's in the $90-$100 range is on trade forums, and those are pre-owned.


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## NYSCOTTY (Mar 16, 2014)

Isnt there a difference in the day wheel for the other language? (j code would be japanese)


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

SCOTTYTOOHOTTY said:


> Isnt there a difference in the day wheel for the other language? (j code would be japanese)


J code is most often Arabic ;-)


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## Alpinist (Nov 3, 2010)

Actually both J´s i´ve owned had roman numerals.


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## sblantipodi (Jul 14, 2013)

my J monster has english+arabic, every time I see the arabic letters I would like to throw out my watch -_-


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## dringer (Aug 24, 2009)

sblantipodi said:


> my J monster has english+arabic, every time I see the arabic letters I would like to throw out my watch -_-


Interesting. Most of my watches have Arabic numerals. Doesn't bother me.


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## teatimecrumpet (Mar 14, 2013)

sblantipodi said:


> my J monster has english+arabic, every time I see the arabic letters I would like to throw out my watch -_-


ok. why?


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## Rod_H (Apr 14, 2014)

sblantipodi said:


> my J monster has english+arabic, every time I see the arabic letters I would like to throw out my watch -_-


That's funny I like that! But then I like dry humour.


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## poppo (May 10, 2014)

The difference in inspection of Japanese people.


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## Pro Diver (Nov 15, 2007)

In a word, NO!


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## Rogi (Mar 31, 2011)

Moose-32 said:


> Do people feel that buying a Seiko Diver "J" version is worth it over a "K". For example, does it make sense to buy a SKX009J or merely go with a SKX009K which are less expensive. I think/realize "J" stands for Japan and "K" for Korea but do you get any better quality or warranty? What is the difference?
> 
> Any thoughts would be great.
> 
> Thank you.


I used to think that it didn't mean a lot to me, but I just switch it over into car terms, I've driven Hondas (and family has owned them) that are made here in Canada. Is there a difference between HQ? No, they hold the same standard.

I've also driven VWs made in Mexico vs predominately made and assembled in Germany. Is it the same car, yes, is it built and adheared to the same standards, no  again this is biased on ones opinion and experience with vehicles, maybe I received a Mexan Lemon and the mostly German VW was fine.

In the watch world, I like the J over K and A etc, its just personal opinion  knowing that the product is as Japanese as possible. I also like the little symbols on Vintage models that let you know which factory they were made in  makes it feel that much more "special" that you get a slight bit of Heritage in the model. (even if now a days nothing is 100% what it seems to be produced as ) Seiko holds true no matter where they are made in because of the quality of the product and inspection practices, not all companies can say the same.


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## dfl3506 (Dec 10, 2010)

If labels are important to you, yes.


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## mario24601 (Jun 17, 2009)

I would say quality is same but for some reason I like seeing the word Japan on the dial.


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## poppo (May 10, 2014)

The quality of K is 97%.
The quality of J is 98%.
Money is applied to this 1%.


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## Munchie (Dec 20, 2013)

mario24601 said:


> I would say quality is same but for some reason I like seeing the word Japan on the dial.


Me too!


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## bruno_sfc (Jun 19, 2017)

I wish Seiko was more on point on their nomenclature. I noticed some K versions had no jewels count and "made in japan" writing on the dials, but some have the jewels count.

What about the number after, like "J*2*" and "K*2*", anyone knows what is means?


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## MorbidSalmon00 (Mar 2, 2016)

bruno_sfc said:


> I wish Seiko was more on point on their nomenclature. I noticed some K versions had no jewels count and "made in japan" writing on the dials, but some have the jewels count.
> 
> What about the number after, like "J*2*" and "K*2*", anyone knows what is means?


You brought this thread back from the dead! The 1 vs. 2 refers for the strap (rubber) or bracelet (jubilee) the watch comes with.


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## bruno_sfc (Jun 19, 2017)

MorbidSalmon00 said:


> You brought this thread back from the dead! The 1 vs. 2 refers for the strap (rubber) or bracelet (jubilee) the watch comes with.


Sorry, I'm new at WUS and have been reading some old threads! 

Thanks you for the explanation!


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## asap3 (Jan 24, 2015)

Actually K and J are the same and based on my experience, the quality is the same.

But it makes a big difference if you are a Seiko collector. Usually collectors go for the J models because it has "Made in Japan" markings which makes a big difference in the collectors world.

But if your just buying the watch for the watch itself, then go with the K models because they are priced lower than the J models.


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## JoeOBrien (Aug 2, 2013)

Just to add some more anecdotal evidence; I recently bought a 007J, and not only are the chapter ring and bezel insert misaligned, but the day doesn't change properly, and the case lines are noticably duller than on my 009K.


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## Krtek (Aug 23, 2018)

Isthmus said:


> It varies between models, but as was said, 10% to 20% is about right.


Thank you all for this information 11 years later. I'm in the market for a Turtle Blue Lagoon and was first looking at only a "J1" edition. I guess I feel a bit more comfortable with a "K1" now.


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## JohnM67 (Jun 16, 2014)

I have an SKX009 J and and SKX013K

The K looks as good or better on the wrist and under the loupe as the J.

My local AD deals exclusively in J models and I can assure you there are plenty of alignment issues and wonky bezels to be found on the divers models - so 'Made in Japan' is not a guarantee that you'll be getting a faultless watch.

J or K - no difference than I can see. I think when it comes to Seiko SKX's it's really just the luck of the draw.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

bruno_sfc said:


> I wish Seiko was more on point on their nomenclature. I noticed some K versions had no jewels count and "made in japan" writing on the dials, but some have the jewels count.


the thing is their nomenclature and numbering/lettering systems are for their own purposes -- it is the internet people who see these and try to decode them, assigning them meanings that Seiko doesn't intend. most importantly Seiko never put J in a the catalog #'s to indicate it was made in Japan, or denote it would show jewels.

Same as K doesn't mean 'Knot Kmade Kin KJapan'? i.e., if the J means something, the K would have to mean something else, but it doesn't. those letters are, from what we can tell, arbitrary. i could have been Y and P. or A and R. F and Z. they chose J and K. we know they assemble things in China, Malaysia, Singapore for sure. Probably other places. There's no letter codes for them....


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## jerouy (Feb 13, 2017)

Gee is this the oldest thread for the topic? 11yo lol.


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## haejuk (Dec 20, 2015)

Since I haven't seen what I feel is the most likely theory in this thread yet, I will add it. Only because I assume this thread comes up on Google when people search for J vs K.

It is quite likely that the J and K denote different target markets for the watch. The J is labeled as "Made in Japan" while the K isn't, even though they are most likely made in the same place. The J model is destined for the Middle Eastern market where country of origin labeling laws aren't as strict, while the K version is sent to markets that have more stringent laws regulating the labeling of country of origin. This also neatly explains why the J models have day wheels in English and Arabic.

Obviously just a theory unless proven.


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## JimmyOlber (Jan 13, 2018)

haejuk said:


> Since I haven't seen what I feel is the most likely theory in this thread yet, I will add it. Only because I assume this thread comes up on Google when people search for J vs K.
> 
> It is quite likely that the J and K denote different target markets for the watch. The J is labeled as "Made in Japan" while the K isn't, even though they are most likely made in the same place. The J model is destined for the Middle Eastern market where country of origin labeling laws aren't as strict, while the K version is sent to markets that have more stringent laws regulating the labeling of country of origin. This also neatly explains why the J models have day wheels in English and Arabic.
> 
> Obviously just a theory unless proven.


After some quick searching around the last couple days since acquiring a J model SNK this seems to be widely accepted as truth, also had read that the cost of producing a watch within Japan would preclude any entry-mid tier watches from actually being 'Made in Japan'.


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## BOND007 (Mar 13, 2013)

I have seen no differences in quality between the J's and Ks, now I would say that across the board the earlier serial #s tend to be of better build quality.


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## Scarletlion (Jul 9, 2019)

I am about to buy SNKL23 and only found J model on the internet. I made my own research and just found this topic. First of all thanks a lot for keeping a 12 years old thread alive. It helped me a lot. So if i happen to summarize the differences between J and K;

- The letters basically stand for the manufacturer country. J is Japan and K is non Japan (Malaysia/Singapore).
- J has English/Arabic calender, K has English/Spanish version.
- It was said that J is slighlty more expensive than K because the belief being that Japan has better manufacture controls and, therefore, produces a better-assembled watch. (I have no idea if that's the reality.) So the price also differs.
- Apart from differences, they use the same quality materials, have the exact look. (Dial, strap, case, etc.)

Correct me if i misunderstood or skipped any part of it.

So I just bought Seiko SSB157P and just found out that masterpiece. A true p/p watch, a classic and has a high reputation. I am trying to build a budget watch collection so before having a SKX(especially 007), i want to have a SNKL23. The watch is avaliable for 85 USD from trusted local sellers in the country i live. I am also planning to buy a leather strap for 20usd max. So i assume it is quite bargain for this watch. Or doesn't it worth the money anymore? Should i skip it and save for SKX007 which is 4 times expensive than SNKL23? (At least in my country)-(I am also aware that the question is a little bit off-topic, sorry for that.)


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## smurfdon (Sep 27, 2018)

If you could state the price difference, it would be easier to understand why J is preferred over K. 
One thing I can say for sure is that both dials are amazing.


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

*Re: Seiko &amp;amp;quot;J&amp;amp;quot; vs &amp;amp;quot;K&amp;amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



Scarletlion said:


> I am about to buy SNKL23 and only found J model on the internet. I made my own research and just found this topic. First of all thanks a lot for keeping a 12 years old thread alive. It helped me a lot. So if i happen to summarize the differences between J and K;
> 
> - The letters basically stand for the manufacturer country. J is Japan and K is non Japan (Malaysia/Singapore).
> - J has English/Arabic calender, K has English/Spanish version.
> ...


Models that have J AND K versions are both made in the same place to the same standards. The letter J or K or P denotes the market it is for, not where it is made. All that differs is letters on the dial and day/date wheel languages.

The reason Js cost more is because there is a demand for them and they are imported from their original market. The demand is there because people believe the bs printed on the dial "made in japan" so want them thinking they're superior. More people these days know it is not true but still want them just because it says it on it or because they're not as common (in their part of the world, obviously Js will outnumber Ks in the place they come from).

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## aguila9 (Oct 17, 2013)

I own various Seiko divers of both the J & K versions and have seen the same Quality in both. I purchased an SKX011J and the chapter ring, dial and bezel alignment is worse than my SKX009K. Nothing crazy to get upset about but definitely not worth the extra $50-100 dollars.

I tend to buy JDM models for the "Kanji" day wheel. Otherwise if a model is available and I want it the intended market or manufacturing location is not that big an issue. The price is!

Sent from my ASUS_P00J using Tapatalk


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## L110BFV (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



clyde_frog said:


> Models that have J AND K versions are both made in the same place to the same standards. The letter J or K or P denotes the market it is for, not where it is made. All that differs is letters on the dial and day/date wheel languages.
> 
> The reason Js cost more is because there is a demand for them and they are imported from their original market. The demand is there because people believe the bs printed on the dial "made in japan" so want them thinking they're superior. More people these days know it is not true but still want them just because it says it on it or because they're not as common (in their part of the world, obviously Js will outnumber Ks in the place they come from).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Could you tell us in what authority you actually KNOW this? Do you work for Seiko?

I've never seen one credible statement to this effect ie that Seikos which state 'made in Japan' on them are actually not made in Japan. I would like to see a statement from Seiko to this effect?
What I have seen are plenty of statements from individuals like yourself who almost certainly don't have any real idea what goes on at Seiko and the way it runs its business.
If something has 'made in Japan' written on it, then to me it should be made in Japan. I have never seen it proved otherwise just a lot of people all located over the world who are completely unconnected with Seiko making statements they have no real idea about, guessing, influencing others, trying to make it so etc etc.

Do I believe that seiko makes watches in other countries? Yes if course I do just like many other global companies but I can't understand why they would state 'made in Japan' when it isn't? Are the watches with 'made in Malaysia ' not really made in Malaysia then? Or the ones stating 'Made in Singapore ' also not made in Singapore? Why do people believe one and not the other? There's a video on you tube by Mark at Long Island watches where he unboxes a J and a K for comparison. The K has a 'Made in Hong Kong' sticker on the case back, is it really made there?

Just for the record, yes I do prefer the J version of any Seiko. Its what I collect. I prefer all my Seikos to say 'made in Japan' but I also understand why to many people it doesn't matter one bit! I particularly prefer the J in the skx model because I like the extra text on the dial, which balances out better to my eye.
Do I think J quality is better? No I dont, I think that quality is probably equal regardless of j or k markings, despite having an ideal j version skx. I think quality alignment etc is just luck of the draw here.
The last post from 2018 states something I certainly dont agree with. My 2018 model skx 009 is better finished/quality than my 2013 model 007 was (both j models by the way). Again, this could just be down to tolerance rather than a genuine trend.


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

12 years since the original post, and people will still be arguing about this in another 12 years.


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## Scarletlion (Jul 9, 2019)

smurfdon said:


> If you could state the price difference, it would be easier to understand why J is preferred over K.
> One thing I can say for sure is that both dials are amazing.


The thing is i couldn't find any K for sale, there was only J. As clyde_frog mentioned, people are more interested in ''made in Japan'' version so higher demand causes it's price to go up. That might be the case. Additionally, as i know this is a discontinued watch. The rarity might be another reason.

Also, thanks for all the replies. I will order my SNKL23 today.


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



L110BFV said:


> Could you tell us in what authority you actually KNOW this?


I don't, nobody does, I'm just saying what I think from what I've read like everybody else does.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## JoeOBrien (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



L110BFV said:


> I can't understand why they would state 'made in Japan' when it isn't? Are the watches with 'made in Malaysia ' not really made in Malaysia then? Or the ones stating 'Made in Singapore ' also not made in Singapore? Why do people believe one and not the other? There's a video on you tube by Mark at Long Island watches where he unboxes a J and a K for comparison. The K has a 'Made in Hong Kong' sticker on the case back, is it really made there?


This has been addressed many times in these countless discussions. Different markets have different legal restrictions about what statement of origin can be advertised on a product. The vagaries of these laws and their application to watches is probably too complex and ponderous to be worth exploring, but here's an example from the website of a law firm specialising in international trade, pertaining to US law:



> For most imported products, the country of origin for marking purposes is the last country where they product underwent a "substantial transformation" prior to being imported into the United States. A "substantial transformation" is defined generally as working or processing which results in the creation of a new and different article of commerce, having a name, character or use different from those of its components.
> 
> The "substantial transformation" test must be applied on a case-by-case basis; often, it is necessary to obtain guidance or rulings from Customs. For example, where copier parts from multiple countries are collected in Japan and joined together to make a copier, it is generally safe to say that a "substantial transformation" has occurred, and the finished copier is a "Product of Japan" for marking purposes. On the other hand, where a processing operation is minor, no "substantial transformation" occurs. For instance, where a French-made document feeder is brought to Japan and assembled to a Japanese-made copier by the attachment of a few bolts and wires, no "substantial transformation" has occurred; the feeder should be marked "Made in France", while the copier should be marked "Made in Japan".


This must vary quite heavily across different markets, hence why some Seiko watches state "Movement Japan" or "MOV'T Malaysia" on the dial, or no origin statement at all like on a 'K' SKX.

We've all read things like "J models are made in Malaysian factories, overseen by Japanese workers". This seems like such a pedantic loophole that it can't really be true. But I've found mention in Australian/Japanese trade law that references "indirect materials" that go into product manufacture, defined as:



> a) goods or energy used in the production , testing or inspection of goods, but not physically incorporated in the goods; or
> b)goods or energy used in the maintenance or operation of equipmentor buildings associated with the production of goods;


Production of sunglasses is used as an example:



> *Example: Indirect materials*
> Japanese workers use tools and safety equipment, produced in Korea,while operating the equipment that produces the sunglasses. The use of the tools and safety equipment meets the terms of paragraph (iii) of the definition of "indirect materials" and are thereby considered to be originating materials.


TL;DR - international product law and its application to wrist watches is highly complex, to the point where we'll probably never know where our watches are made, or by whom. Until we get concrete proof from somewhere, I think there are some specific logical assumptions that can be made:

Your 'J' SKX was not made for the Japanese market. Why? Because it has an English/Arabic day wheel.
The production process of your 'J' SKX was probably identical to any 'K' SKX. Why? Because why on earth would Seiko invest money in two slightly different production processes for a cheap, mass-produced watch?
Your "Made in Japan" Presage or Monster or Sumo was probably not made mostly, and certainly not wholly, in Japan. Why? Because it cost you less than $500.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

Let's assume, J and K watches are made in the same factory, side by side, the difference is just 'made in Japan' text on the dial and/or case back (and maybe the date wheel using Kanji).

Now assume a third watch that differs from these other two by just one detail, it doesn't write 'Seiko' anywhere (amuse me and please ignore any novelty value this may have today).

Which one would you want?

Same watch... One is noname, one says 'Seiko' only, the other says 'Seiko Japan'.

My point is, even if it is exactly the same watch, what writes on it matters a lot (and maybe more than the truth or reason). If it does not for you then great, you will get away with paying a lot less in may circles of life


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

Also, can somebody who thinks that the "Made In Japan" alternate J models are really made in Japan and it's not basically an outright lie, please give me one good reason why Seiko would manufacture pretty much the exact same watch in Japan that they also manufacture somewhere else where it costs a lot less (e.g. Malaysia). It would make absolutely zero sense and you probably can't.


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## AirWatch (Jan 15, 2008)

Not having read through this thread, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but when asked directly, Seiko would maintain that their "Made in Japan"-marked watches are indeed made in Japan. This was in a similarly-themed, but more recent thread (albeit already a few years old itself by now) where some of the correspondence between the OP and Seiko were shown.

In yet another similar thread, a member compared two Monsters, a J and a K, and reported a few subtle differences between the two. The one that stuck in my mind was the weaker lume on the J version. The thread-starter did correctly disclose that he wasn't sure whether these differences were present across the board in all Monster Js and Ks or applied only to his samples of each.


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

AirWatch said:


> Not having read through this thread, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but when asked directly, Seiko would maintain that their "Made in Japan"-marked watches are indeed made in Japan. This was in a similarly-themed, but more recent thread (albeit already a few years old itself by now) where some of the correspondence between the OP and Seiko were shown.
> 
> In yet another similar thread, a member compared two Monsters, a J and a K, and reported a few subtle differences between the two. The one that stuck to my mind was the weaker lume on the J version. The thread-starter did correctly disclose that he wasn't sure whether these differences were present across the board in all Monster Js and Ks or applied only to his samples of each.


Yeah, they are never going to say "oh yeah that's just some ........ we use because we can get away with it in some places" are they haha. And that lume thing will be 100% down to quality control imo.


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## AirWatch (Jan 15, 2008)

^Yeah, but how would _*you*_ know about any of it anyway? Do tell.


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## L110BFV (Oct 26, 2014)

clyde_frog said:


> Also, can somebody who thinks that the "Made In Japan" alternate J models are really made in Japan and it's not basically an outright lie, please give me one good reason why Seiko would manufacture pretty much the exact same watch in Japan that they also manufacture somewhere else where it costs a lot less (e.g. Malaysia). It would make absolutely zero sense and you probably can't.


If all businesses in Japan thought like that then there wouldn't be any manufacturing in Japan! I'm sure Seiko has several manufacturing points, but why do people only think the Japan one is a lie? 
I also find it amusing that people assume that Seiko would only manufacture a given particular model in just the one location. Ie an skx can only be made in Malaysia, 
Singapore or wherever. A lot of people dont realise how modern production and logistics of a global company work.
I, like many, realise that just because it says 'made in Japan' on the watch it is not necessarily intended for the Japanese domestic market, but it should be made in Japan. Take Bosch for example, another global company that makes products in countries like Mexico. When the product has 'made in Mexico ' written on it then that's where its made, but when it says ' made in Germany ' then its made in Germany.
Take a look at the 2nd gen monster. You can get a 'made in Japan' version, a k version with no country on the dial then a 'movt Japan' version also known as a k version. Why would Seiko tell you that just the movement is made in Japan? Surely they might as well lie and say its all made in Japan? I think that when they take the trouble(and a legal commitment) to state that its 'made in Japan' it must be made/built in Japan. In a 'movt Japan' marked watch I would only expect the movement to be made in Japan, likely then the watch is assembled elsewhere.
What you stated in your earlier post backs up what I said. I'm aware that manufacturing and import export laws can be complex but this doesn't mean that assumptions and supposition make things a fact and all I've ever heard/ read is assumptions by people not in a position to actually know. What my company manufactures wouldn't be allowed to be labelled as made in a different country and I've never come across it before, either. Obviously there's a difference between the item manufacturing point and components of the items origin.
When Mr Seiko announces publicly that their products that state 'made in Japan' are not so, and they've been deceiving us all these years then I'll believe it, until then I'll keep an open mind and assume what's stated.


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## Watch19 (Oct 15, 2016)

This discussion will remain endless until we have a clear idea of what constitutes "Made in Japan". Like with NAFTA and "Swiss Made", there must be regulations that define when and why a label can/must be applied. The regulations probably mandate a percentage of home market labor and component sources that are required for a product to be sold in a given market.
That said, to answer the op's question, the higher price of the "J" is justified by two facts we know:
1. They are usually purchased outside of their intended market which usually means paying a premium.
2. There are enough people here that believe the "Made in Japan" label is worth extra $$.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

The Principal of Parsimony, also known as Occam's Razor which in its simplest form is often read as: _"one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"_


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## heywatchit!! (Jan 23, 2019)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



clyde_frog said:


> Models that have J AND K versions are both made in the same place to the same standards. The letter J or K or P denotes the market it is for, not where it is made. All that differs is letters on the dial and day/date wheel languages.
> 
> The reason Js cost more is because there is a demand for them and they are imported from their original market. The demand is there because people believe the bs printed on the dial "made in japan" so want them thinking they're superior. More people these days know it is not true but still want them just because it says it on it or because they're not as common (in their part of the world, obviously Js will outnumber Ks in the place they come from).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk





L110BFV said:


> Could you tell us in what authority you actually KNOW this? Do you work for Seiko?





clyde_frog said:


> I don't, nobody does, I'm just saying what I think from what I've read like everybody else does.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Then why do you post all this BS when you know nothing about it


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

heywatchit!! said:


> Then why do you post all this BS when you know nothing about it


Nobody on here knows for sure but they all post what they think. That's what I believe based on everything I've read, albeit from other people who also don't really know. I don't think it's bs, I believe what I put.

We could all just post about certified facts and no conjecture if you'd like but there would be a lot less to debate.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

The most interesting thing about this about topic, which rears itself up periodically, as this one did (resurrected), is how sensitive origin is in watches, compared to other items we own.

The vast majority of us never give much, if any, thought to the statement of origin on the PC's we use to debate our watch's origin on WUS. Or the refrigerator in our kitchen, our washing machine and dryer, and the cloths we put in them, the car we drive, TV we watch, phone we use, etc. 

We simply accept what ever origin is stated on the item itself, or the box it came in. 

My Fuji X-T2 says "Made in Japan", as do 2 of it's lenses. Are all the parts inside also made in Japan? Are some sub-assemblies done outside Japan? Is Fuji engaged in some diabolical plot to deceive customers into thinking this camera is solely made in Japan? Or should Fuji have to disclose where each part is made in the manual inside the box? 

When it comes to our watches, many heads explode trying to grasp how a movement assembled in Country A, from parts made in countries A, B, C and D, from materials from countries A, D, E, and F, then cased in Country E, and imported into countries X, Y, and Z, can have a statement of origin "Made in country A" for the version sold in Country X, but "Made in E" for versions sold in Y and Z.

And that's not even considering that manufacturers typically have multiple suppliers for many parts, use those parts interchangeably, change suppliers regularly, update part designs periodically, and over a product's life span, may move assembly from one country to another, and change supply and distribution channels. 

Yet all these other items, that we never question, are manufactured and distributed the same way.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Yeah... nobody really knows the truth behind all of this. And it probably doesn't matter anyway. It's a global market now. Everything is made everywhere.

What I know for sure, though, is I'm sure as heck not going to pay a 50% markup on a watch just because it says "Japan" on it.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

MrDisco99 said:


> Yeah... nobody really knows the truth behind all of this. And it probably doesn't matter anyway. It's a global market now. Everything is made everywhere.
> 
> What I know for sure, though, is I'm sure as heck not going to pay a 50% markup on a watch just because it says "Japan" on it.


Well, maybe not 50% .... but we all might have our own thresholds.

Exceptions might be if it translates into the resale value ... there are plenty of people who will pay more for a J.

Or if "Made in Japan" on the dial makes YOU happy.

Watches are said to be jewelry, where mark up's can be very high.... And arbitrary. "To each his own".

But I agree with you. I prefer JDM's because of the models available, and when it comes to SKX's prefer J's. But I'm a flipper. And I have often been able to get J's for same as K's, and JDM's for very reasonable prices. I always buy new, and I've never paid close to list for any watch.

As far as the truth, that implies lying. Seiko is not lying. They couldn't possible do anything else. And I'd be surprised if they are not following the letter of the laws that apply.

Neither is the mfg of your car.


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## heywatchit!! (Jan 23, 2019)

clyde_frog said:


> Nobody on here knows for sure but they all post what they think. That's what I believe based on everything I've read, albeit from other people who also don't really know. I don't think it's bs, I believe what I put.
> 
> We could all just post about certified facts and no conjecture if you'd like but there would be a lot less to debate.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


There are some visible differences when compared side by side. I've compared a few models in the past and have an SRP773J dial and an SRP773K in front of me right now. So I don't believe they are made in the same factory or that the only difference is the "Made in Japan" print.

This "debate" will always exist because people will see things in their own way. Some won't notice any differences that are obvious to others. Some don't care and many will never bother to compare the models. Others will feel the need to defend their choice in a K model for whatever reason, even if it involves criticizing something they haven't seen themselves.

I have several Seiko's, both J & K, though mostly K. If the visible differences are very noticeable to me and the price is close enough, I will almost always choose a J-model. However, sometimes the price difference is $100-$150 on top of a $200-$300 watch and it's just not worth it for me. For example a Samurai I purchased was $280 for the K and $420 for the J. I'm happy to have the K model at a reasonable price, but where the price difference is $20-$50 I'd opt for the J.


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## DonJ53 (Mar 1, 2017)

heywatchit!! said:


> clyde_frog said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody on here knows for sure but they all post what they think. That's what I believe based on everything I've read, albeit from other people who also don't really know. I don't think it's bs, I believe what I put.
> ...


I believe it's common knowledge parts are manufactured in various factories so there may be differences. There are probably differences when manufactured in the same factory at different times and different operators of machines.

In my manufacturing days, a customer phoned me to say some parts I had manufactured were failing (breaking). I asked him to send me a failed part. From it I was able to provide a detailed report showing I had not manufactured it or any other of them that had failed.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

nepatriot said:


> Well, maybe not 50% .... but we all might have our own thresholds.
> 
> Exceptions might be if it translates into the resale value ... there are plenty of people who will pay more for a J.
> 
> ...


Well, you and I are different in that, as I just posted on another thread, I believe if you're thinking about resale value, then you're probably buying the wrong watch. I focus on buying watches I want to wear and won't want to resell.

Also, have you seen the price difference lately between 007K's and 007J's? 50% is not that far off.

And yes, I believe Seiko is following the letter of the law to the extent that they are required to do so, just like every responsible corporation. But, as we've seen recently with American and Swiss brands alike, the fact that it says "Japan" on the dial doesn't mean there are watchmakers in Japan churning out SKX's.


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## DonJ53 (Mar 1, 2017)

Vimbeldon, Anyone for tennis.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

People are overlooking the somewhat rare but occasionally available SKX007E, from the Ethiopian factory which serves the African continent as well as into the middle east. And then there is the SKX007B from the Sao Paulo factory in Brazil for all of South America up to Guatemala. It seems Seiko is building things far and wide with multiple factories building essentially the same watch for different markets. I'm still looking to grab an E and an S SKX


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Scarletlion said:


> Correct me if i misunderstood or skipped any part of it.
> 
> - The letters basically stand for the manufacturer country. J is Japan and K is non Japan (Malaysia/Singapore).
> 
> - It was said that J is slighlty more expensive than K because the belief being that Japan has better manufacture controls and, therefore, produces a better-assembled watch. (I have no idea if that's the reality.) So the price also differs.


Those 2 are two of the biggest mythological falsehoods of the whole J/K battle.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



L110BFV said:


> Could you tell us in what authority you actually KNOW this? Do you work for Seiko?
> 
> What I have seen are plenty of statements from individuals like yourself who almost certainly don't have any real idea what goes on at Seiko and the way it runs its business.


it doesn't have to be specific to Seiko, it has to do with international labeling laws and such. i've never read the laws but plenty who have theoretically been in the know about those sorts of things (people who have worked in international manufacturing, law, etc) have stated it and it's what makes the most sense. i believe the information is out there. it's basically a loophole for allowing them to write MADE IN JAPAN on the dial because Seiko the company is of Japanese origin, though such watches may be made in Singapore, Malaysia, etc, or only partially made or sourced from Japan.

no one is clever for standing up for Seiko in this situation, when it's been demonstrated that an SKX007J has a Malaysian movement, a case from China, but the dial says MIJ... _so it must have been made in Japan! _


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*

And still nobody has given a good reason why Seiko would manufacture the same watch in 2 different countries (one being Japan) when the other country costs a lot less to do it in (and please don't try to argue that they're not the same watch because of some almost insignificant difference; they're the same watches with the same value, they cost the same amount to make and Seiko is not stupid enough to make half of them in Japan thereby wasting huge amounts of cash when they are also being made somewhere else for a lot less with much lower labour costs). I'd love to hear an explanation of why Seiko wastes loads of money making some watches in Japan to be exported to one part of the world, while making the same watches for another part of the world somewhere a lot cheaper. If Seiko made the J versions to be sold in Japan and exported the K's I'd get it, but that is not the case.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



clyde_frog said:


> And still nobody has given a good reason why Seiko would manufacture the same watch in 2 different countries (one being Japan) when the other country costs a lot less to do it in (and please don't try to argue that they're not the same watch because of some almost insignificant difference; they're the same watches with the same value, they cost the same amount to make and Seiko is not stupid enough to make half of them in Japan thereby wasting huge amounts of cash when they are also being made somewhere else for a lot less with much lower labour costs). I'd love to hear an explanation of why Seiko wastes loads of money making some watches in Japan to be exported to one part of the world, while making the same watches for another part of the world somewhere a lot cheaper. If Seiko made the J versions to be sold in Japan and exported the K's I'd get it, but that is not the case.


that's one of the biggest 'common sense' arguments that obliterates J vs K. the idea that some people think Seiko would make 2 different watches of 2 different quality levels in 2 separate places.... and then somehow order dealers to sell the J's for slightly more. AND include Arabic day wheels in the "MIJ" because that totally makes sense, too!

it's not that we KNOW these things by "verifiable FACT", it's that with all these little bits of information and common business sense you can discern what's going on and a basic idea of how they do some of these things.


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## Shrodinkee (Feb 8, 2016)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-middle-class-kingdom-made-in-japan-is-now-big-in-china-1535540404

Seiko isn't mentioned but...

"Casio Computer Co. , known for its G-Shock watch series, recently boosted production of a $20 watch at a factory in northern Japan. Until now, it mostly made that model in China and Thailand."

Personally I never believed the idea that there was some Japanese factory manager in Malaysia = Made in Japan. The article at least implies there's more to it than that. If all Casio had to do was send some Japanese person to Thailand and bam, they could put "Made in Japan" on it, they probably would have done it. Especially on a $20 watch with razor thin profit margins to begin with.

Of course the article also says,

"Tetsuya Kawai, who is in charge of Casio's watch business, said *all the factories have the same quality*, but buyers abroad "have a perception that made-in-Japan goods are more substantial."

which ultimately is what should matter the most.


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## DonJ53 (Mar 1, 2017)

Ahhh, it must be true...it's in the papers.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



Shrodinkee said:


> https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-middle-class-kingdom-made-in-japan-is-now-big-in-china-1535540404
> 
> Seiko isn't mentioned but...
> 
> ...


Hmmmmm... the old "Japanese manager on duty" trick. Diabolical!

Does he have to be awake too? Or is it OK if he's got his feet up taking a nap, as long as he's somewhere on-site?

I may need to drop an idea in the suggestion box at work: we have a factory in Shanghai that makes a consumer product for the Asian market. Same product we make in 2 other factories, one in the USA, the other in the EU. We also have a few factories in Japan that make different products. See where I'm going? The article says "Made in Japan" has more cache than "Made in China", and we have Japanese citizens employed in our factory in Japan .... All we gots to do here is transfer a few managers to the plant in China and BAM, we can label them "Made in Japan" and take a price increase!

I'll get a % bonus for the increase revenue too, if this works, as part of our employee incentives program! WOW! Now, should I go buy that Rolex I've always wanted today, or wait until I've dropped this in the suggestion box?


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



timetellinnoob said:


> that's one of the biggest 'common sense' arguments that obliterates J vs K. the idea that some people think Seiko would make 2 different watches of 2 different quality levels in 2 separate places.... and then somehow order dealers to sell the J's for slightly more. AND include Arabic day wheels in the "MIJ" because that totally makes sense, too!
> 
> it's not that we KNOW these things by "verifiable FACT", it's that with all these little bits of information and common business sense you can discern what's going on and a basic idea of how they do some of these things.


Common sense ... kind of like Occam's Razor.

Take the diabolical "Japanese Manager on Duty" scheme we've heard about. Or the various theories that Seiko is engaged in a complex, decades long international fraud by abusing import and origin regulations in dozens of countries. They've never been caught, but its common knowledge on WUS! This conspiracy must extend to Trade Ministers in a dozen countries!

Or maybe its simpler than that ... like trade pacts maybe?


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

Another point, I'd pay some more for a J or 'made in Japan' or 'mov't japan' version, not because I consider Japanese products in general are better quality or have better quality control, but because Seiko is a Japanese brand.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



Shrodinkee said:


> https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-middle-class-kingdom-made-in-japan-is-now-big-in-china-1535540404
> 
> Seiko isn't mentioned but...
> 
> ...


Unfortunately the WSJ has a paywall, but there is another article here - https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Bu...panese-manufacturers-to-bring-production-home

The article concurs that Casio is bringing home (reshoring) manufacturing of their $20 watch in their new factory so it would seem we were wrong all along about it being cheaper to build elsewhere. Or were we?

"Japanese manufacturers that spent decades expanding their footprints in Asia and beyond are bringing production back home, with the help of robotics and artificial intelligence."

"Japanese exporters face rising labor costs across Asia, negating the benefits of producing offshore. At the same time, they are finding that automation can make domestic operations cost-competitive. Domestic production also allows them to display the "made in Japan" label, which still carries cachet."

"Output of the watches is split roughly equally among four plants: two in China, one in Thailand and the Japanese site in Yamagata Prefecture. But Japan will account for a greater share of production after the Yamagata plant is automated, with plans to more than double its capacity from the current 100,000 units a month."

"Casio's move is just another company opting to invest in Japan rather than overseas."

"Wages have more than tripled since 2005 in China and are also climbing in Southeast Asia. Factory automation gives Japanese companies a way to make domestic production more cost-competitive."

"Not every industry can reshore production so easily. Products where labor accounts for a low percentage of the cost are relatively easy to repatriate."

So to sum up, when labor costs in China/Southeast Asia were significantly lower than Japanese wages it made sense to off shore production of watches. But with increasing wages, especially in China it now makes more sense to build factories in Japan taking advantage of robotic and AI advances and efficiency. I doubt that Casio is all that different from Seiko in how they see the business world and in reacting to increasing overseas costs, reduction of overall labor costs and increasing reliance on robotics. Casio (and likely Seiko) asked the question, 'how can we save money' and their answer was, 'bring it home'. 20 or 30 years ago the answer to that same question was, 'send it overseas'

The sub-title of the article sums it up nicely: *Casio calculates that 'Made in Japan' is possible at Thai-level costs*


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

Yawn. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



nepatriot said:


> Common sense ... kind of like Occam's Razor.
> 
> Take the diabolical "Japanese Manager on Duty" scheme we've heard about. Or the various theories that Seiko is engaged in a complex, decades long international fraud by abusing import and origin regulations in dozens of countries. They've never been caught, but its common knowledge on WUS! This conspiracy must extend to Trade Ministers in a dozen countries!
> 
> Or maybe its simpler than that ... like trade pacts maybe?


it's that what they are doing isn't illegal. no one's trying to trick anyone, the laws are just loose enough that allows them to say it's made IN japan when it's technically not. personally I still consider any Seiko to be a Japanese watch...

i don't get why all this stuff upsets some people so much lol. it's not hard to understand that some things made by japanese companies can't be made on japanese soil. same for US, germany, etc etc etc anywhere. you buy a Volkswagen, some come (or came, don't know if this is still how they do it) from a factory in Mexico... is that owner going to go around saying they drive a Mexican car? it's still a German car.....


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



timetellinnoob said:


> i don't get why all this stuff upsets some people so much lol. it's not hard to understand that some things made by japanese companies can't be made on japanese soil. same for US, germany, etc etc etc anywhere. you buy a Volkswagen, some come (or came, don't know if this is still how they do it) from a factory in Mexico... is that owner going to go around saying they drive a Mexican car? it's still a German car.....


Why would a Japanese company invest in a factory overseas, why would a German manufacturer buy from Mexico rather than locally? Answer is obvious and simple, to cut costs, to cut some corners... To be able to lower the price of the product and sell more and make more profit...

That's why people care, people want best quality products made with best parts possible. People also want it to be cheap and affordable but then, people want everything 

If there were no 'made in Japan' labeled Seikos, life would be simpler. When there is a better (but the same(!)) version of the watch I'm using, that makes me feel bad. It's like using a look-alike or homage because you can't afford the real one.


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## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2018)

Have you seen TGVs video on this? It was almost comical watching him trying to find “differences.”


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



Xhantos said:


> Why would a Japanese company invest in a factory overseas, why would a German manufacturer buy from Mexico rather than locally? Answer is obvious and simple, to cut costs, to cut some corners... To be able to lower the price of the product and sell more and make more profit...
> 
> That's why people care, people want best quality products made with best parts possible. People also want it to be cheap and affordable but then, people want everything
> 
> If there were no 'made in Japan' labeled Seikos, life would be simpler. *When there is a better (but the same(!)) version of the watch I'm using, that makes me feel bad.* It's like using a look-alike or homage because you can't afford the real one.


also to expand their businesses into global economies...... but the factory is from the same company, it has to be seen as the same relative quality. this voodoo about something being built on more meaningful soil of the original company, is all bunk.

the versions aren't better though. they are equal. some just say 'japan' in a couple places under the hood and some don't. this is equivalent to like a v1.178 and a v1.179 (just picked random numbers there) for all intents and purposes it's the exact same thing, its just slightly different in a way that's basically imperceptible as far as use goes.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



Xhantos said:


> If there were no 'made in Japan' labeled Seikos, life would be simpler. When there is a better (but the same(!)) version of the watch I'm using, that makes me feel bad. It's like using a look-alike or homage because you can't afford the real one.


It's not better, though. They're the same. You're attaching a fantasy value to a few tiny words on the dial, and some imaginary idea that provenance matters. The price of labor has no relation to its value. That's why offshoring is such an easy choice.


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## Ac10bad (Jun 8, 2019)

I went with the k version on my skx007 and 009 because I didn't want to spend the extra 50$ just because it says made in Japan.


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## pauli1nj (Jul 11, 2019)

MrDisco99 said:


> Yeah... nobody really knows the truth behind all of this. And it probably doesn't matter anyway. It's a global market now. Everything is made everywhere.
> 
> What I know for sure, though, is I'm sure as heck not going to pay a 50% markup on a watch just because it says "Japan" on it.


I couldn't agree more with MrDisco99 on this. I wouldn't pay X+50 more for the J version.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

I recently had the opportunity to buy both a J and K version of the same watch. The J version was returned.

J version - blemish on the dial at the 7 minute marker, chapter ring was fine but the bezel was slightly off. Made in Japan on the dial. It was returned.

K version - $35 less expensive. Dial has no imperfections, chapter ring is good and the bezel is spot on. No Made in Japan on the dial. It is being kept.


You be the judge.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I recently had the opportunity to buy both a J and K version of the same watch. The J version was returned.
> 
> J version - blemish on the dial at the 7 minute marker, chapter ring was fine but the bezel was slightly off. Made in Japan on the dial. It was returned.
> 
> ...


A blemished J version or a perfect K version? J version with imperfect bezel or a K version with imperfect chapter ring? or the other way around?...

Questions like these will complicate things to infinity.

Even if everybody here preferred the J versions, there are people buying those K versions (Can you believe it?!?). Otherwise, nobody would buy them and they would not be in production.

The correct answer to the original question is more emotional than rational.

Rationally, I don't need a wrist watch at all and I'm far from perfection myself. I might just take the returned J version


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

*Re: Seiko "J" vs "K" - is it worth it?*

I recently had the opportunity to choose between the SKX009J and the SKX009K.

I chose the SKX175 instead, because it was cheaper on Amazon.

<shrug>


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## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

Xhantos said:


> I might just take the returned J version


So you would prefer to pay more for a watch with defects because it has Made In Japan on the dial?? :roll::-! |>


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Have you seen TGVs video on this? It was almost comical watching him trying to find "differences."


Almost everything about him is "almost comical"...


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

*Re: Seiko &amp;quot;J&amp;quot; vs &amp;quot;K&amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



timetellinnoob said:


> it's that what they are doing isn't illegal. no one's trying to trick anyone, the laws are just loose enough that allows them to say it's made IN japan when it's technically not. personally I still consider any Seiko to be a Japanese watch...


One way to look at this might be not from the perspective that "laws are loose enough", but rather "laws require".

US law regarding imported watches requires origin to be where the last significant transformation of the movement was performed. Not where the watch was mostly assembled, or cased.

Watches using the 4r36 movement, when it first came out, and that were properly imported into the US by Seiko (vs. back door by 3rd party), were required by US law to state origin as "Movement Japan". At that time, the movement was said to be mostly assembled, from parts fabricated much the same way, much the same was as the 7s36: outside Japan, most likely same factory that made 7s36's. But the last "significant transformation", what ever that was, was done in Japan. That may be Seiko's SOP for any new movement.

The completed movement could then be sent anywhere in the world to be cased ... in the US that watch, by US law, must state "Movement Japan".

So Seiko had no alternative, if they wanted to import a the new Turtle into the USA.

The J's markets are said to be countries around the Middle East, Africa, and parts of Asia. In the - many - discussions on this topic, it has been often said that some countries in those markets require origin to be where the manufacturer HQ is located. So "Made in Japan" would also be a legal requirement for those countries.


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## TwentiethCenturyFox (Mar 8, 2014)

Not worth the price difference for lower level models at all I think.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

TwentiethCenturyFox said:


> Not worth the price difference for lower level models at all I think.


Except when the J version comes with the lumed numerals that the K version lacks:


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

yankeexpress said:


> Except when the J version comes with the lumed numerals that the K version lacks:


well this one is because only the black case model has the lumed numerals. the SS and blasted case SNZGs have only lumed markers.


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

*Re: Seiko &amp;amp;quot;J&amp;amp;quot; vs &amp;amp;quot;K&amp;amp;quot; - is it worth it?*



nepatriot said:


> In the - many - discussions on this topic, it has been often said that some countries in those markets require origin to be where the manufacturer HQ is located.


I find that hard to believe. I mean it would make sense but it just seems really odd that they'd require the nationality of the company rather than the actual country of origin.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

clyde_frog said:


> I find that hard to believe. I mean it would make sense but it just seems really odd that they'd require the nationality of the company rather than the actual country of origin.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I agree, it seems odd. I have never bothered to look into this claim.

However, outside this forum, I have heard of this, but not referencing any specific country. The context was that traditional COO definitions are obsolete in today's global manufacturing environment. Basically what is being discussed here with watches: it has become practically (i.e. impractical) on many if not most finished goods for COO statements to convey what COO was intended to do in the first place.

There are many purposes of COO labeling, and this has evolved as well. One purpose is to be able to identify the country where it was made, because that was most likely where the HQ of the manufacturer was located. So if there was a problem with that product, the mfg could be contacted, by consumers, or for business and legal matters. Today that is not so: HQ's are very often in countries other than where a product was manufactured.

Another purpose was for perceptions of quality, real or imagined. Companies and countries wanted this to protect national industries and company profits. Consumers want this to gage quality, authenticity, etc. Global manufacturing has largely rendered this moot. About the only things that can be said to have a clean SOO are local grown fruits and vegetable .

More modern rules on origin, such as where the last or most significant transformation occurred, does't achieve either purpose I have mentioned above: global sourcing, assembly and distribution.

So what I recall reading was proposing that replacing current manufacturing-based COO for import purposes with "country of the principal offices of the company'" that commissioned the manufacturer of a product, and is the first ownership of the finished goods.

I.e. follow the money.

After that, manufacturers could state "Made in" or Assembled in" based on a country's laws regarding a product produced in that country. That is of they had such laws.l If not, then no mfg could make that claim for that country.

How would that look?

My guess would be something like this. For Seiko, all their products would simply say "Japan" under the logo. That's all that would be required by any country for import purposes.

For Seiko products that are produced under Japan's laws for watches made in Japan, Seiko could label them "Made in" or 'Assembled in". Regardless of where is imported into.

This would solve the SKX example: none would say "Made in Japan". J and K would not be needed: all SKX007's could have the same mfg item number globally, with variations for dial color, metal or rubber, etc.

As a consumer, if you see any Seiko with "Made in Japan" on the dial, all you need to do is google "Made in Japan" watch rules, and you would know exactly what Japan law states, and know that watch complies. No more trying to figure out what a each country require for SOO, and all the contradictions that spring from that.

Suppose you looked at one of Time Factor's Precista watches. It would have "Great Britain" under the logo. It would have no "Made in" anywhere, unless a particular model complied with a specific country's "Made in" laws. Time Factors could then provide as much or as little detain on their website.

Not saying this a viable proposal, just that it is an idea that might address increasingly impractical county-by-country import driven COO laws and "Made in" regulations.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Like you said, I don't think COO markings really mean anything anymore. So I just ignore them and go with the better deal.


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## Kelevra77 (Sep 9, 2013)

I'd much rather buy one that has "Made in Area 69" on the dial as long as that factory had better standards of quality control Seikos seem to be suffering from. It is unfortunate for buying my 1st Seiko, i felt compelled to contact the seller to make sure it had no defects. I completely understand the appeal of "Made in Japan" on dials, in terms of preference, resale value and all that. And if it meant better QC that would be great, but it doesn't. This glorified idea that Japanese means more care and "better" is great when its true, but just look at some Japan based sellers selling used watches at premium prices on Ebay based mostly on this idea (tbf they are usually in great condition). At the end of the day, depends on the company, how far do they go for their product quality, no matter where they are based in. As much as i love Seiko, they need to step it up


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

My last few cents 

It all depends on your priorities which in turn depend on why you are getting the watch.

As an utility to actually show the time? As a cosmetic accessory? As an investment? As a life long friend? As something to leave your grandchildren? or, as in my case, as something that would make you happy even when not on wrist... Just being aware that it exists and you can wear it when you want giving you immense pleasure...

A Seiko with 'made in Japan' label makes me a lot more happy than one without, so I'd act accordingly. (I'm aware that label is no guarantee of better Quality / QC and the watch may not really actually be made on Japanese soil).


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## jz1094 (Jul 19, 2016)

I have owned both the J and K of the 007 and they are exactly the same


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

Xhantos said:


> My last few cents
> 
> It all depends on your priorities which in turn depend on why you are getting the watch.
> 
> ...


There's no "may not" about it. Honestly I think anybody who still thinks SKX J's are made in Japan at this point is delusional.


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## De Wolfe (Jul 23, 2015)

All my seiko's are J, and when I purchased them, didn't even notice till later that they where J.


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## Katakuri17 (May 24, 2019)

I like the J's just because of the extra text on the dial. But other than that I think they are literally the same watch.


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## Sinner_666 (Oct 11, 2018)

I don’t mind paying a little extra for the J because of the added line of text.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DonJ53 (Mar 1, 2017)

Someone should write a book about it under the pseudonym J K Rowing. I'd buy the first edition.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

clyde_frog said:


> There's no "may not" about it. Honestly I think anybody who still thinks SKX J's are made in Japan at this point is delusional.


haha  My point is, with such a watch I can choose to be delusional, and be happy... which is all that counts in the end.

If it does not write '*made in Japan*' (or '*Japan*') on the dial or back (or at the worst implied in the model number), to me, it's the same as if it writes '*NOT MADE IN JAPAN*' in capital letters and there is no 'may' about it either.


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## rcorreale (Jan 25, 2008)

jz1094 said:


> I have owned both the J and K of the 007 and they are exactly the same


The dial is different.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OHL (Jan 8, 2018)

I just realised that the Red (orange?) Diver's 200m text on the SKX007J is "redder" and brighter then the SKX007K version.
I'll buy it just for that.


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## konners (Jun 17, 2014)

I think this thread really could do with being locked..


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## DonJ53 (Mar 1, 2017)

konners said:


> I think this thread really could do with being locked..


Like a London Bus, another will soon follow.


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## konners (Jun 17, 2014)

DonJ53 said:


> Like a London Bus, another will soon follow.


Ha! No doubt!


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## dsmpampis (May 17, 2015)

I don’t think if it’s worth or not. But I bought the J version because I want the "Made in Japan", after all it is a Seiko....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## harrisc (Sep 2, 2015)

dsmpampis said:


> I don't think if it's worth or not. But I bought the J version because I want the "Made in Japan", after all it is a Seiko....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, it's user's preference. Many are willing to pay more for the "Made In Japan" text. But, I'm not one of them lol ....


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

harrisc said:


> Yeah, it's user's preference. Many are willing to pay more for the "Made In Japan" text. But, I'm not one of them lol ....


I bet you'd buy the 'made in China' version of a Rolex (if Rolex had a Chinese factory / production). In any case, Rolex does not provide that option to their customers 

A Rolex should be 'swiss made', I don't know, otherwise it won't feel like a real Rolex to me. Likewise, a real Seiko should be 'made in Japan' and proudly advertise that on the dial.

Actually, (I have written this before) I'm OK with outsourced products as long as there is only one version. If a Seiko watch has both a J and a K version, then the K version feels like a 'fake' to me. But if Seiko produced a model only in, for example, Malaysia, and they write 'made in Malaysia' on the dial and the back, I will be totally OK with that.


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## dsmpampis (May 17, 2015)

harrisc said:


> Yeah, it's user's preference. Many are willing to pay more for the "Made In Japan" text. But, I'm not one of them lol ....


It was 10€ more for the J.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmanosaka (Feb 27, 2018)

The models have the same movements but the dials and coloring are slightly different. There's also the authentic factor. JDM being at the top for bragging rights. I buy what I like. Prefer the Japanese but buy the Korean or whatever if the styling suits me. Case by case. My SRPC13 just couldn't be found in a Job version but very happy with the K.


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## DonJ53 (Mar 1, 2017)

Ohhhh noooo here we go again.


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## fillerbunny (Apr 27, 2018)

dmanosaka said:


> There's also the authentic factor. JDM being at the top for bragging rights.


The only JDM Seiko I've had said "Mov't Japan" on the dial and "Cased in China" on the case back.


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## Munchie (Dec 20, 2013)




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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

Xhantos said:


> I bet you'd buy the 'made in China' version of a Rolex (if Rolex had a Chinese factory / production). In any case, Rolex does not provide that option to their customers
> 
> A Rolex should be 'swiss made', I don't know, otherwise it won't feel like a real Rolex to me. Likewise, a real Seiko should be 'made in Japan' and proudly advertise that on the dial.
> 
> Actually, (I have written this before) I'm OK with outsourced products as long as there is only one version. If a Seiko watch has both a J and a K version, then the K version feels like a 'fake' to me. But if Seiko produced a model only in, for example, Malaysia, and they write 'made in Malaysia' on the dial and the back, I will be totally OK with that.


You are dumb beyond words.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

dmanosaka said:


> The models have the same movements but the dials and coloring are slightly different. There's also the authentic factor. JDM being at the top for bragging rights. I buy what I like. Prefer the Japanese but buy the Korean or whatever if the styling suits me. Case by case. My SRPC13 just couldn't be found in a Job version but very happy with the K.


J models aren't JDM; JDM models don't have any letter suffix and have different model numbers to the J and K models.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

clyde_frog said:


> You are dumb beyond words.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I know you mean it in a good way 

We can always agree to disagree.


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

Xhantos said:


> I know you mean it in a good way
> 
> We can always agree to disagree.





Xhantos said:


> But if Seiko produced a model only in, for example, Malaysia, and they write 'made in Malaysia' on the dial and the back, I will be totally OK with that.


Seiko produce a model only in Malaysia/China and they write "made in Japan" on it, and you're totally OK with that too. And you consider the K to "feel like a fake" when it's the J that's purporting to be something it's not.


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

konners said:


> I think this thread really could do with being locked..


Why? It's a legitimate topic, if you're offended you can leave.


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

I got the J version of the Turtle Great White Shark for 2 reasons: 1) kanji date wheel 2) higher perceived value and desirability on resale in case I want to move it down the road


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

dmanosaka said:


> The models have the same movements but the dials and coloring are slightly different. There's also the authentic factor. JDM being at the top for bragging rights. I buy what I like. Prefer the Japanese but buy the Korean or whatever if the styling suits me. Case by case. My SRPC13 just couldn't be found in a Job version but very happy with the K.


but an SKX J isn't JDM. JDM means it's sold to the Japanese market, doesn't it? they didn't market the SKX007 to Japan/it wasn't in Japanese catalogs, as far as i've learned here.

for instance, the SRP777 isn't JDM, not marketed to Japan, but there is a JDM version which is the same thing but with the kanji day wheel, and it's a different model, SBDY or something like that. there was no domestic Japan SKX007.


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## squamish5 (Oct 15, 2010)

I don't think Made In Japan means Made in Japan either, but I've owned several 007K and 007J variants and the 200m script on the K versions is always a dark orange while the J version is pale .... I don't think they are necessarily assembled with the same parts


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

So ignoring any question of which one is better, what proof is there that the J version of the SKX is made in Japan? Is it the J, or the 'made in japan' on the dial? Okay that seems to be as good a proof as 'made in malaysia' means made in malaysia. Of course then the question arises, does seiko maintain a plant in malaysia for the K version and the US 173/175 versions with a separate facility in Japan solely for making the vaunted J version? It just beggars description that an international company would bother to manufacture only one variant of a low cost, entry level diver, at what I have to believe are excessive costs (versus the Malaysia variant) all so that one watch can be labeled Made In Japan, for a watch that is not for the JDM, not for the US or North/South American market but only for those people who are willing to pay (a bit) more for the MiJ brand. So then out of all the watches Seiko makes the SKX007/009 J variants are a 'Private Stock' only available to those in the know? Yeah that all seems perfectly reasonable. As does the Yete, Nessie, Mermaids and Megladon.


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## konners (Jun 17, 2014)

99watches said:


> Why? It's a legitimate topic, if you're offended you can leave.


Because almost all arguments possible have been presented by both sides, and neither will convince the other. What comes about now in this thread is rehashing of the same cases. Sometimes it's best to put things (threads) to rest. Note this thread has been running for over 10 years (IIRC)!


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## Shrodinkee (Feb 8, 2016)

Seabee1 said:


> So ignoring any question of which one is better, what proof is there that the J version of the SKX is made in Japan? Is it the J, or the 'made in japan' on the dial? Okay that seems to be as good a proof as 'made in malaysia' means made in malaysia. Of course then the question arises, does seiko maintain a plant in malaysia for the K version and the US 173/175 versions with a separate facility in Japan solely for making the vaunted J version? It just beggars description that an international company would bother to manufacture only one variant of a low cost, entry level diver, at what I have to believe are excessive costs (versus the Malaysia variant) all so that one watch can be labeled Made In Japan, for a watch that is not for the JDM, not for the US or North/South American market but only for those people who are willing to pay (a bit) more for the MiJ brand. So then out of all the watches Seiko makes the SKX007/009 J variants are a 'Private Stock' only available to those in the know? Yeah that all seems perfectly reasonable. As does the Yete, Nessie, Mermaids and Megladon.


Its not just the SKX, many Seikos have J and K variants. I would go as far to say the majority of low/mid end automatic Seiko's have J and K variants.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

clyde_frog said:


> Seiko produce a model only in Malaysia/China and they write "made in Japan" on it, and you're totally OK with that too. And you consider the K to "feel like a fake" when it's the J that's purporting to be something it's not.


I see your point, but...

If Seiko manufactured the watch on Mars and wrote 'MIJ' on it it will still be OK, because Seiko wrote it there. It's like an aesthetic trait of the watch, a property like the dial color or glass type, and also something which enhances and complements the perceived value of the brand.

For example, SRPD03K is Dawn Grey Samurai, limited not only in number but also to the european region. That model, does not have MIJ written on it (there is no version of it that has) and it is definitely not manufactured in Japan, but I have it and love it. This is what I'm totally OK with.

A version with MIJ written on it would be a superior version which I would want more than the (perceived-as-inferior) non-MIJ version.

Simply put, I see it as a part of the branding, not as one hundred percent pure, old fashioned, home grown statement of the truth, which BTW also applies to 'Swiss Made' label.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Shrodinkee said:


> Its not just the SKX, many Seikos have J and K variants. I would go as far to say the majority of low/mid end automatic Seiko's have J and K variants.


So for each of those J and K variants Seiko maintains a factory overseas for the K and a factory in Japan for the J?


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

Seabee1 said:


> So for each of those J and K variants Seiko maintains a factory overseas for the K and a factory in Japan for the J?


You would just need capable plants with parts, labor and 'blueprints' there. Then you make your production planning, taking shipping costs, sales estimates and whatever else needed into consideration to optimize profits. Does not sound that bad, does it?


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Xhantos said:


> You would just need capable plants with parts, labor and 'blueprints' there. Then you make your production planning, taking shipping costs, sales estimates and whatever else needed into consideration to optimize profits. Does not sound that bad, does it?


And double all your overhead costs.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Xhantos said:


> Simply put, I see it as a part of the branding, not as one hundred percent pure, old fashioned, home grown statement of the truth, which BTW also applies to 'Swiss Made' label.


And you're willing to pay an extra $50-100 for that?

Whatever... it's your money I guess. I just don't get it.


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## Kattywampus (Mar 4, 2018)

Honestly, they're the same. But I'd pay the extra cost just to have one made in Japan.


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## JAA (Dec 10, 2011)

konners said:


> Because almost all arguments possible have been presented by both sides, and neither will convince the other. What comes about now in this thread is rehashing of the same cases. Sometimes it's best to put things (threads) to rest. Note this thread has been running for over 10 years (IIRC)!


+1. After all, these watches are jewelery. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" applies. If the difference in the last letter of the model on the tag makes a difference, then it's ok.

BTW, a while ago when traveling in Europe, I saw cars with the badge "Honda" but looked near-identical to Acuras sold in the US. Maybe there are some real differences, but I don't ever recall people obsessing whether that badge on the trunk made one "better" than the other.

The only thing that matters is when you put on your watch, it makes you smile.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

MrDisco99 said:


> And double all your overhead costs.


The way I think of it is like this: There are 2 printers, one in Japan, one in some other country. You keep all the files needed to be printed at both sites, after all they are just files. You print a file as necessary as appropriate where it would be more profitable. Because there are many more files to print, at one time the printer in Japan may be occupied, at another time the other printer may be closer to where the product (printed page in this analogy) will be shipped.

I think the overhead is negligible, when it is not, you just don't do it. The fact that it is done (as K and J versions) means it is profitable.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

MrDisco99 said:


> And you're willing to pay an extra $50-100 for that?
> 
> Whatever... it's your money I guess. I just don't get it.


I'm not just willing to pay more, I have already done so, many times.

If everybody was like me, then nobody would buy the K version, and there won't even be a K version or this thread


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Xhantos said:


> You would just need capable plants with parts, labor and 'blueprints' there. Then you make your production planning, taking shipping costs, sales estimates and whatever else needed into consideration to optimize profits. Does not sound that bad, does it?


I'm not talking about IF a manufacturer would be able to make the same item in two different places, I'm talking about how it's not economically feasible and it's a duplication of effort. So somehow in your jargony way you're insisting that Seiko makes J variants in Japan and K variant and US version SKX173/175 Malaysia? Am I understanding you without putting words in your mouth (because honestly, your statement really doesn't make any sense, at least in regard to the comment I made and you quoted).


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Kattywampus said:


> Honestly, they're the same. But I'd pay the extra cost just to have one made in Japan.


If "...they're the same..." then what difference does it make where it's made? And if they were made in Japan the price differential would almost certainly be more than the $50 difference grey market dealers (and re-sellers) think they can get for them. All for MiJ on the dial. That's cognitive dissonance if ever there were.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

Seabee1 said:


> I'm not talking about IF a manufacturer would be able to make the same item in two different places, I'm talking about how it's not economically feasible and it's a duplication of effort. So somehow in your jargony way you're insisting that Seiko makes J variants in Japan and K variant and US version SKX173/175 Malaysia? Am I understanding you without putting words in your mouth (because honestly, your statement really doesn't make any sense, at least in regard to the comment I made and you quoted).


It seems reasonable to me that with certain level of generalized equipment, for Seiko, it will be a piece of cake to produce a batch of SKX in any plant available to Seiko, whichever is convenient at the time.

Today I can work at this office, tomorrow at the other office with the view. Assuming both offices have the computer and internet connection I need for work, why should it be hard or not-feasible?

If we were talking about limited editions and limited runs, I'd agree with you, duplication of effort in that case most probably will not be feasible. But if they produced a 5k batch at one plant, for various reasons it may be 'more' feasible to produce another 10k batch at another plant in another country 6 months later.

Does Seiko makes J variants in Japan? I'm not sure. But for the other variants, I can say that they are NOT made in Japan, for sure.


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

already said it but


clyde_frog said:


> dumb beyond words.


Xhantos, please tell us what is logical about the idea that Seiko would spend huge amounts more on infrastructure, labour etc. etc. to produce cheap watches in Japan that are made to be exported to the Middle East or whatever, rather than just produce them somewhere cheaper in the same facility that they make the same watches to be exported somewhere else. What is so special about this Middle Eastern market that makes Seiko spend more money and manufacture their watches in Japan instead? It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and it is not happening. Accept it and leave your silly Made In Japan fantasy world.

Somebody mentioned closing this thread as it's all been said before, yeah it's probably the most tedious repeated topic on here, but it's so funny how much some people want to believe these watches are made in Japan that reasoning just goes out of the window.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Xhantos said:


> The fact that it is done (as K and J versions) means it is profitable.


That's a circular argument. We're all trying to tell you that's not how they are doing it.


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## Shrodinkee (Feb 8, 2016)

Seabee1 said:


> So for each of those J and K variants Seiko maintains a factory overseas for the K and a factory in Japan for the J?


Factory for what? Assembly? Fabrication? Final inspection? Again, this goes back to figuring out the definition of what " Made in X" really means as it pertains to watches.

My only opinion on the matter is that its a very dubious assumption that Seiko can put "Made in Japan" on a watch that has had absolutely no part of its production on Japanese soil. Is there some agreement that watch manufacturers are allowed to do this? Maybe. But that would be well below country of origin labeling standards for most products across many countries. So, just call me skeptical.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Shrodinkee said:


> Factory for what? Assembly? Fabrication? Final inspection? Again, this goes back to figuring out the definition of what " Made in X" really means as it pertains to watches.
> 
> My only opinion on the matter is that its a very dubious assumption that Seiko can put "Made in Japan" on a watch that has had absolutely no part of its production on Japanese soil. Is there some agreement that watch manufacturers are allowed to do this? Maybe. But that would be well below country of origin labeling standards for most products across many countries. So, just call me skeptical.


I'm equally skeptical, with regard that Seiko would make cheap, entry level watches with some made in Japan and the rest made elsewhere, all for the sake of putting Made in Japan on the dial. As for how a watch can be labeled, I only know that in the US, where the movement was made is considered the country of origin according to the US Customs and Border Protection. Anywhere else is simply speculation, on my part, your part and on the unicorn dreams of those who desire the J variant.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Kattywampus said:


> Honestly, they're the same. _But I'd pay the extra cost just to have one made in Japan._


I swear to GOD i'm going to rip what's left of my hair out


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Seabee1 said:


> I'm not talking about IF a manufacturer would be able to make the same item in two different places, I'm talking about how it's not economically feasible and it's a duplication of effort. So somehow in your jargony way you're insisting that Seiko makes J variants in Japan and K variant and US version SKX173/175 Malaysia? Am I understanding you without putting words in your mouth (because honestly, your statement really doesn't make any sense, at least in regard to the comment I made and you quoted).


I've said it in numerous threads, this is one of the main arguments as to why people insisting J = Japan is dumb. this idea that Seiko keeps factories on Japanese soil and secretly makes these _slightly better versions for people who know J is better._it's so stupid. so this is why when people ask "well how do you KNOW any of this" it's just that we can deduce things by what makes business sense, and people know how to run businesses. and it just flat out doesn't make sense to manufacture 'some' low end watches BETTER, and on domestic soil, to again secretly sell to people "in the know". it's just business sense that people are able to deduce they are made outside of Japan, and it's all these international labeling laws that create the J/K nonsense and it's about where the watches are sold/marketed.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

clyde_frog said:


> already said it but
> 
> Xhantos, please tell us what is logical about the idea that Seiko would spend huge amounts more on infrastructure, labour etc. etc. to produce cheap watches in Japan that are made to be exported to the Middle East or whatever, rather than just produce them somewhere cheaper in the same facility that they make the same watches to be exported somewhere else. What is so special about this Middle Eastern market that makes Seiko spend more money and manufacture their watches in Japan instead? It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and it is not happening. Accept it and leave your silly Made In Japan fantasy world.
> 
> Somebody mentioned closing this thread as it's all been said before, yeah it's probably the most tedious repeated topic on here, but it's so funny how much some people want to believe these watches are made in Japan that reasoning just goes out of the window.


That huge spending is your assumption, we don't know about the actual associated costs.

In my life I have seen the opposite many times. I have witnessed the following first hand: many years ago a factory was producing 'A' quality and then some 'B' quality goods, inferior 'B' quality goods were sold cheaper. Later they renewed their machinery, and all their goods became 'A' quality but the demand for cheaper 'B' quality goods were there, so they just labeled some of their goods as 'B' quality and continued selling them cheaper.

Another example, Intel introduced 486DX processor and cheaper 486SX variant which did not have the math co-processor built-in as the main difference. Fast forward a little and they were selling the same exact processor as 2 different variants, they actually broke a pin off the cheaper SX variant to physically disable the existing math coprocessor and probably because of this additional effort needed, it (the cheaper variant) cost more to produce!

*It IS even possible that if demand dictates Seiko will build K variants in Japan.*

If the demand is over capacity, Seiko would make SKXs in Japan. (I don't think, like some here do, you need a separate specialized plant for making SKXs, it is probably a few specialized stations etc.) If they are waiting for something etc. in the Japanese plant, maybe they just make some J SKXs in the meanwhile just not to sit idle. I like to think Seiko is flexible about production, optimizes things globally, acts fast depending on the demand.

Edit: Just thought about this one: Maybe there is some stupid(!) government regulation etc. that will give Seiko some big tax cuts depending on the number of watches exported, hence it may make sense to produce cheap watches on Japanese soil and export them to fulfill their quota.

(I have elaborated this part above because I think that's the part you refuse to accept).

Unfortunately 'made in Japan' is not defined like the 'swiss made'. Definition may change everything. I assume we all know and probably agree about this one.

And for the last time  .... Having 'made in japan' or 'japan' or 'mov't japan' or just a J suffix in the model number, implies some kind of a Japanese involvement, this complements and enhances the perceived brand value for the product as Seiko is based in Japan. *The value is in itself.* It doesn't matter if the watch is really made in Japan by Japanese people as one imagines in his fantasies. It doesn't matter even if the K version has better overall QC etc.

If you know about placebo, the surprising thing is that it works even when people know they are getting a placebo. And what is remarkable about placebo is that it really works, it is not a trick, it cures just like the real thing


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## ChristianB (Sep 19, 2011)

Please correct me, but from various online sources I have gathered that Seiko is labeling their watches as per import requirements for the intended market of sale. They are made in the same factory, with the same parts and to the same degree of finishing, the only difference is that the J-model is sold in countries where the producers must mark their items with the country where the company HQ is located (mostly Arab countries), whereas the K-models are sold in countries where producers must mark their items with the manufacturing country. The watches intended market, that is, and not where we may be buying them from. If you buy a Seiko from a seller in Hong Kong, the watch may have been sourced from inventory intended for sale in India, and be labeled in accordance with that market's import requirements.

If Seiko is planning to import a watch to a country for sale, they will label the watch per what ever import rules regarding watches that country has. Seiko is not, I believe, mislabeling watches. The JDM watches many of us like say "Made in Japan" because that is what Japanese law states; watches made in a Japanese owned factories outside Japan, intended for sale in Japan, can be labeled as such.

"原産地証明書の種類によって日本製の基準・定義は異なる"(Depending on different Certificate-of-origin, definition and standard of "Made in Japan" varies).


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## squamish5 (Oct 15, 2010)

And now for something completely different..... Where is the SBDY015 made? It has a Kanji day wheel so it looks like it is designed and destined for Japan market.....no j or k designation
Just curious...


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## konners (Jun 17, 2014)

squamish5 said:


> And now for something completely different..... Where is the SBDY015 made? It has a Kanji day wheel so it looks like it is designed and destined for Japan market.....no j or k designation
> Just curious...


It states Made in Japan. My understanding it is a JDM version of the SRP777. I have one, and I couldn't care less where it is actually made. It looks no different to any SRP turtle I had previously, packaging the same too.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

_"If the demand is over capacity, Seiko would make SKXs in Japan. (I don't think, like some here do, you need a separate specialized plant for making SKXs, it is probably a few specialized stations etc.) If they are waiting for something etc. in the Japanese plant, maybe they just make some J SKXs in the meanwhile just not to sit idle. I like to think Seiko is flexible about production, optimizes things globally, acts fast depending on the demand."_

Why wouldn't they just add additional lines to the already existing SKX factory?

_" Having 'made in japan' or 'japan' or 'mov't japan' or just a J suffix in the model number, implies some kind of a Japanese involvement, this complements and enhances the perceived brand value for the product as Seiko is based in Japan."_

Having the name Seiko doesn't just imply, it clearly denotes that the product is Japanese.

_" It doesn't matter if the watch is really made in Japan by Japanese people as one imagines in his fantasies. It doesn't matter even if the K version has better overall QC etc. "_

Then why do you insist that J = MiJ?

_"If you know about placebo, the surprising thing is that it works even when people know they are getting a placebo. And what is remarkable about placebo is that it really works, it is not a trick, it cures just like the real thing "_

So then self-delusion is your answer to the J/K conundrum? Okay I think now we're all on the same page, you KNOW that the J is a 'placebo' and accept that it's not the real thing but that's good enough for you. I think we're reach an acceptable agreement.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

Seabee1 said:


> Why wouldn't they just add additional lines to the already existing SKX factory?


Because what you suggest, sir, is called an investment, you don't do that when you already have idle lines at another factory.



Seabee1 said:


> Having the name Seiko doesn't just imply, it clearly denotes that the product is Japanese.


Nope. Absolutely not. This is the point of all this argument we are having. There are Japanese, made in Japan, J Seikos and then there are the poor man's K Seikos.



Seabee1 said:


> Then why do you insist that J = MiJ?


Of all the letters why would they pick J you think? Because it means Japan! Either made in or made for or whatever, J is Japan.

- SBDY029 and SRPD23K are both nearly identical STO3 samurais. SBDY029 has 'made in Japan' text on the dial and case back. (There is also a 'mov't japan' version of SRPD23).

- International model SBP103J1 and JDM modal SBDC081 are both Gen3 green Sumos. Actually as far as I can see both have 'Japan' on the dial, MiJ on the case back and they are exactly the same watch, wherever they are made at.

- International model SLA033J1 is the same as JDM model SBDX031, The 1970 Diver's Re-creation Limited Edition, as this is a premium 2500 piece limited edition, we know for sure that all watches come from the same batch and most probably Japan.

There is a good chance that J = MiJ but definition of MiJ will matter a lot here.



Seabee1 said:


> So then self-delusion is your answer to the J/K conundrum? Okay I think now we're all on the same page, you KNOW that the J is a 'placebo' and accept that it's not the real thing but that's good enough for you. I think we're reach an acceptable agreement.


My point was, as long as it cures the disease it doesn't matter. I'm not saying or accepting that it is a placebo, but it wouldn't matter even if it were.

My answer to end all this debate is simple but unfortunately out of my hands:

Japan invades all Asia and then Switzerland and then, why not, the whole world, then all watches will be 'made in Japan' and J versions, there will be no K versions, no J/K debate


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

Xhantos said:


> Nope. Absolutely not. This is the point of all this argument we are having. There are Japanese, made in Japan, J Seikos and then there are the poor man's K Seikos.
> 
> Of all the letters why would they pick J you think? Because it means Japan! Either made in or made for or whatever, J is Japan.


**** me.

What does the K stand for then? I think I better put you on ignore before I lose it.


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## doggbiter (Oct 31, 2010)

The K stands for Kookamunga. 

Oh, and the moon landing was clearly staged and the reanimated corpse of John Wilkes Booth shot JFK from the grassy knoll.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

clyde_frog said:


> **** me.
> 
> What does the K stand for then? I think I better put you on ignore before I lose it.


Noooo!

Current theory is that K was for Korea but then Korea (south) got rich and expensive like Japan so K is now Malaysia, unfortunately the letter stuck. All clear now?


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## konners (Jun 17, 2014)

Xhantos said:


> Noooo!
> 
> Current theory is that K was for Korea but then Korea (south) got rich and expensive like Japan so K is now Malaysia, unfortunately the letter stuck. All clear now?


I can't say I've ever seen any evidence that gave any indication that a watch was manufactured in part, or in whole, by Seiko in Korea. I think people suggested Korea as a place for manufacturing because Seiko used a K in the product code.


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## squamish5 (Oct 15, 2010)

konners said:


> I can't say I've ever seen any evidence that gave any indication that a watch was manufactured in part, or in whole, by Seiko in Korea. I think people suggested Korea as a place for manufacturing because Seiko used a K in the product code.


K! The K stands for anywhere else.....m'kay?


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

konners said:


> I can't say I've ever seen any evidence that gave any indication that a watch was manufactured in part, or in whole, by Seiko in Korea. I think people suggested Korea as a place for manufacturing because Seiko used a K in the product code.


You have a point, I don't have any evidence either but through the years, for many products, I have seen production in Japan shifting to Korea and then from there to Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam and China.

Maybe K stands for an obscure Japanese word that starts with a K and means 'overseas', why care?

Ask not what K stands for, ask what it does not stand for!

It does not stand for Japan.

MiJ or not MiJ, that is the question. 
(Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles, 
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep).


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## rrod81 (Mar 25, 2019)

How about the limited editions.. Lets say the blue lagoon turtle. It says limited to 6000 pieces. You can see versions K and J in the market. So you think there are 6000 pieces of k and 6000 of j versions. Or 3000 each version? Bit confusing.. 

Sent from my G8342 using Tapatalk


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

rrod81 said:


> How about the limited editions.. Lets say the blue lagoon turtle. It says limited to 6000 pieces. You can see versions K and J in the market. So you think there are 6000 pieces of k and 6000 of j versions. Or 3000 each version? Bit confusing..


I was confused at first too. Limited editions usually don't have K and J versions, but totally different model numbers for Japan and elsewhere. In the end, they all come from the same limited batch, the limit is worldwide regardless of reference/model numbers.


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## clyde_frog (Feb 6, 2017)

Xhantos said:


> Noooo!
> 
> Current theory is that K was for Korea but then Korea (south) got rich and expensive like Japan so K is now Malaysia, unfortunately the letter stuck. All clear now?


No, you are just regurgitating all this bull**** you've read. The only reason people suggested Korea is because they think J stands for Japan so K must stand for some other Asian country beginning with K. Try using your brain instead. Since you seem to know everything though, what about P variants? What does that stand for, Pakistan? Palau?



Xhantos said:


> Maybe K stands for an obscure Japanese word that starts with a K and means 'overseas', why care?


Right so what's to say the J doesn't stand for some Japanese word that means something else, why care? Oh because that goes against your dreams of your watches being made in Japan doesn't it. :roll:


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## harrisc (Sep 2, 2015)

Here we go again ....... suggest to close this tread instead.


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

clyde_frog said:


> ... they think J stands for Japan so K must stand for some other Asian country beginning with K. Try using your brain instead. Since you seem to know everything though, what about P variants? What does that stand for, Pakistan? Palau?


C'mon Clyde! You can do better than that. Obviously the far east country that begins with a P is... Philippines!


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## konners (Jun 17, 2014)

Xhantos said:


> C'mon Clyde! You can do better than that. Obviously the far east country that begins with a P is... Philippines!


If the lettering in the product code is indeed linked to country of manufacture, why is it that many (if not all) J variants have an Arabic day wheel and "2X Jewels" on the dial, whilst the K, P etc do not have the scrip on the dial and seldom have Arabic day wheels?


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## Xhantos (Jun 8, 2019)

konners said:


> If the lettering in the product code is indeed linked to country of manufacture, why is it that many (if not all) J variants have an Arabic day wheel and "2X Jewels" on the dial, whilst the K, P etc do not have the scrip on the dial and seldom have Arabic day wheels?


Short answer, I don't know. I can speculate and even present a very reasonable case that we all here on WUS may accept and agree but it may still be wrong and all speculation.

People claim Seikos that clearly say 'MADE IN JAPAN' on the dial and case back, are NOT made in Japan (to their satisfaction!).

So even if we agree that J stands for 'Japan', the argument will still be far from over.


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## brdl04 (Dec 14, 2011)

This thread is a good Watchuseek Hall of Fame candidate.


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## larand (May 15, 2017)

Instagram: @vta_watch


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