# Is a winder necessary for longer life of watch?



## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

Find the answer in this thread with cogent discussion and input from watchmakers:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/watch...nance-standpoint-386343.html?highlight=winder

Cliff notes: Oils distribute through capillary action. Winder not needed to distribute oils. A ticking movement is a movement that wears mechanically. Even watches that are not used should be cleaned and lubricated periodically, because oils will dry out anyway. Winder does not prevent drying out. Crown and stem are much sturdier than the miniscule parts in the movement. Thus crown/stem wear is less than movement wear if you are careful.

Watch winders have thus as good as no effect on the life of a watch. Actually if you leave a watch for a year on a winder it will be subject to more wear than had you just left it in the closet. After five to eight years you will still have to clean and lubricate it. Winder or not.

Winder is great for time saving, accuracy, convenience. All valuable assets. But it's not a maintenance requirement or help.

Till


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

tfar said:


> Find the answer in this thread with cogent discussion and input from watchmakers:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/watch...nance-standpoint-386343.html?highlight=winder
> 
> Cliff notes: Oils distribute through capillary action. Winder not needed to distribute oils. A ticking movement is a movement that wears mechanically. Even watches that are not used should be cleaned and lubricated periodically, because oils will dry out anyway. Winder does not prevent drying out. Crown and stem are much sturdier than the miniscule parts in the movement. Thus crown/stem wear is less than movement wear if you are careful.
> ...


It does appear the life cycle of watches which have been serviced with modern lubricants will not be increased or decreased by the use of winders.

I do not favor a 'time passed' criteria for servicing watches. Watches change performance when they begin to need service.

If you have a timing machine, you can see in seconds if you have reached this point. If you do not, noticing changes in the ability to keep good time is sufficient... but you have to notice and know!

I will throw up this criteria for a spot check... if your watch can not keep accurate time to better than 30 seconds per day, and it is a decent modern movement (not some old pin lever!) then it needs service.


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## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

I mostly agree. But there is the danger that then it's already too late. That said, I'm not a big proponent of over-servicing, either.

Example: My Explorer 1 is twenty years old. I got it in 1997 from a friend. Not sure if he had it serviced before that. It ran just fine. Then I had it regulated but to my knowledge not fully taken apart in 2003 or so. It was running still in chrono specs but not as well as before. In 2009 I had it fully cleaned and serviced. The watch was still running fine +3 per day. But the watchmaker said it really needed the lube at that point because it was running dry. Luckily no components were damaged. He readjusted everything and it's now running around +1-2 per day.

Till


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Yes, well my 30 seconds per day is actually far worse than I actually allow in my 'running' watches. (Some are not running... waiting for me to clean once I have enough time to learn how!) If the runners can't be regulated to better than 10 seconds per day, they don't get to stay runners.


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## por44 (Dec 21, 2007)

Glad to see a concensus that a winder isn't needed for maintenance/longevity of the movement. When I ran into a conversation with a diehard winder, I would ask. What about those brand new $$$$ watches that sit in the AD's safe for extended time periods? Are they on winders? If not - why not? Generally, this ended the conversation and we moved to a new topic.


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## timejunkie (Jul 24, 2010)

So it it better not to use a winder and adjust the time whenever you wear your watch? I read from a watch repair web site that a watch on a winder will have more wear on it compared to one that sits around until your ready to wear it. Makes sense. But in the case of the latter, your pulling out the crown and adjusting your watch more often. :-s


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## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

Pulling out the crown and adjusting the watch is not a problem as long as you do it carefully. Also, mind the duration between wearing it. I mean if you don't wear a watch for six months, it makes no sense to have it rotate on the winder and simulate 180 days of full wear. If you don't wear it for a week or three weeks, just keep it on the winder.

You have to find a balance between wear from the winder and wear from crown handling. And you have to be comfortable with the amount of work required to keep all the watches going. If you don't mind setting the watch every time you use it, you don't need a winder at all. It's there just for convenience.

Also, a watch that has been rotating on a winder for one month or longer will likely not have the really correct time anymore. So adjusting is required. When I see my watch is more than 30 seconds off I reset it. Others might be less anal but I think if my watch is two minutes off, I might as well not have invested in a fine time piece and a winder.

Till


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Something else to keep in mind and which was discussed recently: certain movements including the 2824 use a relatively soft alloy metal in their winding mechanism which might limit (and I say "might") the number of full manual winds to something around 550 times before maintenance is needed to replace the part worn down and also to clean metal shavings from inside the watch. For those movements using a soft metal alloy in the hand winding mechanism it might be better to let the motion of your wrist wind the watch or keep it on a winder.


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## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

Interesting, I didn't know that. Any place to look up that kind of info for other movements?

Theoretically we could make a model like this: You get 550 winds. Say 600 to make calculations easier. It's an automatic after all. You wear the watch on five consecutive days and then put it down for the weekend. Unfortunately the PR is less than 48 hours, so you have to wind it manually to get it working on Monday. So let's say you have to give it one manual winding per week. Let's be generous, say two manual windings per week. That would be 600:2=300. So 300 weeks of wear. Divided by 56 weeks, that's 5.3 years. After about five years or so it might be time to service the watch anyway!

You can cut the winding action down by not giving it a full wind, which is usually between 30 and 40 full revs but only a half wind, say 20 revs. The rest it will easily put on to full mainspring tension over an eight hour day or two. Now you are looking at 7-10 years of hand wind action without the need of a winder and without risk to the movement.

So, really, a winder is only needed for convenience or if you have super complicated watches that are a PITA to set. I don't have any of that. But I do have altogether ten winder spots. I use my 8x winder almost exclusively now for the 7 watches I have that even have an auto movement. I try to rotate very frequently and not to neglect any of my babies, so it's quite practical. If I knew I'd not wear a certain watch for more than a month, I'd take it off the winder.

Till


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

tfar said:


> Interesting, I didn't know that. Any place to look up that kind of info for other movements?


Not that I know of. Some of this info was on a thread in the German watch forum on the Damasko 36. Most of it is from Lysanderiii. A few "facts" I've gleaned.

--you can handwind the 7750 to your heart's content :-!

--Vostok recommends (or warns against) hand winding their diver movements no more than 15-20 times.

--the 2824 has that soft metal alloy, which is basically a cost-cutting move in that it's easier/cheaper to manufacture; and there are definitely others that have it too, esp. ones which share a genetic heritage with the 2824.

--still waiting to hear about the 289x. If it has that soft alloy I'm no longer calling it high-end movement :-d.

I won't be giving my 2824s a full wind very often; I'll let my wrist do most of the winding.


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## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for the extra info. Would be great to know about the 289x. I have one in an Oris TT1 GMT. The winding action is the absolute smoothest of all my watches. You almost think it doesn't wind. Even my watchmaker was surprised. But he opened it up and regulated it for me. I asked if the winding action was any sign of a deficiency. He said it was just a sign of an extremely smooth running movement. I like that. He didn't warn against hand-winding it but I didn't ask him.

Till


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## EHV (Mar 30, 2010)

That Damasko, shake don't wind thread is a conspiracy from the winder manufacturers... Just kidding.

It did put the fear in me though and made me reconsider a winder or three.
I've been winding,(likely over winding) my 2824's for a while now.
My initial issue for wanting a winder was the screw down crowns and now, after the info on that thread, I will drastically cut down on my hand winding and if I do wind, it will not be to the limit.
Maybe I'm too paranoid about this one?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

EHV said:


> That Damasko, shake don't wind thread is a conspiracy from the winder manufacturers... Just kidding.
> 
> It did put the fear in me though and made me reconsider a winder or three.
> I've been winding,(likely over winding) my 2824's for a while now.
> ...


paranoia happens when information is somewhere between speculative and probable...


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## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

For handwinding the biggest risk it to have a heavy hand and to overwind beyond the stop in watches that don't have a clutch, thus manual watches. Activating the clutch when handwinding does no harm to an automatic movement from what I understand. On the other hand, Walt Odets of TimeZone recommends to put watches on the winder not fully wound but after the spring has unwound already a little bit. And he recommends setting the winder so it won't keep the watch fully wound. He says when you do that the clutch strikes again and again. That's not necessary.

Don't Ask Me Why They Call it a Time Cube - TimeZone

Till


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## Der Biermeister (Aug 26, 2010)

Good stuff -- you'd be surprised how much I've learned in just a day or two.

I haven't decided if I will buy a winder or not. I cycle through 5 watches -- but only one is a mechanical/automatic, my new one. My other watches are:

A Seiko Sports 150 yachting timer that I've used constantly for some 25+ years. So on most weekend days from April through Oct when racing my boat, this is the watch I am wearing. Figure approx 12 hours per day. I consider this the very best yachting time ever made, primarily because I believe an analog dial is much more "telling" than a digital LCD readout.










My next watch that I wear most often when in casual clothes (not working around the house) is a Citizen Stars & Stripes:










I love this watch for its multiple functions of one-touch Time and Calendar in 21 World Time Zones for when I am traveling, and as a backup yachting timer if my Seiko is in the shop. It's a tough watch and takes a lot of abuse from me -- like when I wear it to ride my motorcycle up to Alaska and back.

For a dress watch, I prefer my very unique Citizen "Minute Repeater". This was a limited edition watch from about 18 years ago. Wonderful chimes.










My knock-around watch is a Casio Atomic Solar:









Great for banging around the house -- holds a solar charge for something like 3 months!! Since I am outdoors a good bit (yard work or hiking or walking the neighborhood, it pretty much gets charged every day. Synched to Ft. Collins every night at midnight.

And finally - my new watch that I will be wearing probably 1/3 of the time is this Accutron:










So ... as you can see that with only 1/3 use, this watch will be somewhat difficult to keep wound. That is why a watch winder is intriguing. However, I am not sure I want to fork over $400 bucks or so. I am getting mixed signals from what I read here as to whether a winder actually extends the life. So, for the time being, I'll keep on reading.

Also -- there appears to be dozens of these winders on the market. Some are in the $100 range. Most are up around $300-$500 (for a single winder), and some even much higher. They all seem to have 3 rotational functions that are programmable -- so I am kind of overwhelmed as to which one is a "best buy".


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## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

Try the Bellocia winder from Amazon. It's about $40 and has two spots. Works very well. I have one and am quite happy with it.

As you can see from the thread and sources, a winder isn't necessary to prolong the life of the watch. You gain convenience and possibly accuracy by having the watch always wound at the same level. That's about it.

Till


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## Der Biermeister (Aug 26, 2010)

Another question.

In reading up on the various winders, I am learning that all are not created equal in terms of how the watch mounts to the device. There seems to be some issues with heavier watches not staying secure. Also, depending on the size of the bracelet, they may not fit? (Sorry if my terminology is lacking.)

So my question is this ... how do you know when purchasing these things online if they will mount correctly, easily, and be secure during the winding process?

One of the devices I read up on focused on this very issue ... and they convinced me (as much as I can be convinced through reading) that their device was superior to others. Of course ... their price might have been "superior" too! 

I'll go see if I saved the link.


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## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

There are two or three types of mounting that are pretty universal. One is the simple pillow. It should fit any watch but is maybe not the most elegant solution and might fall out. One is the system used by Eilux and Bellocia and maybe others with a clip-held, spring-loaded plastic pod. I think in principle this is the best. The third is a simple sponge-like foam ball. Probably as versatile as the pillow and more friction than textile covering of the pillow so it won't fall out. You could always make your own foam inserts on the cheap.

The Acetimer devices have a problem with smaller diameter watches but larger ones are OK. But you know what? After having used the Acetimer, I see that I don't even need to close the clasp of my big and heavy IWC. I just put it on the pod and it does stay in place. And on my strap watches I don't even close the buckle. I just thread the strap through the keepers and pull it tight. Saves wear on the strap holes. 

So overall, don't worry about it and get the winder you find suitable and that has the right functions for you.

Till


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## Der Biermeister (Aug 26, 2010)

I found the link I mentioned-- and it is the very one you also just talked about.

The "Box Buoy" Display Winder |Eilux

From the Eilux description:

*"The patented watch mount is spring loaded for secure, quick on/off watch loading. This is a great feature if you have arthritic fingers it is so easy to use. Most Winders are more difficult to load! One of the best features of the winder in fact!"*

Here's another one that also is nice -- but simply WAY too much money.

Siena1 _WatchWinder (Choose Color)

*"Especially good choice for larger heavier automatics."*

Finally -- here is one to kill for. (And you might have to in order to pay for it)

Avanti1_WatchWinder

*"Ball bearing construction throughout, coupled with the use of Swiss designed ironless core precision winder motors"*


So this begs the question -- how many of the other devices use ball bearings throughout? And ball-bearings are cheap, so why the price tag?


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## tfar (Apr 7, 2010)

Nice. All of these are great but all are overkill. When I read the tech specs of the Eilux with silver ion loaded anti-bacterial watch holders I already thought it was overkill to turn some watches. Eilux and Orbita are in the top class. It's nice but really not necessary. They are as much pieces of jewelry as the watches they most likely house.

Besides, my Eilux double winder on two 1.5V batteries is NOT able to turn two heavy watches. So I doubt the Orbita will be able to do that and then for five years.

The Bellocia on AC will turn what you throw at it.

Till


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## mr_raider (Nov 7, 2010)

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I guess my question fits here. I can`t decide if I need a winder. I now own to automatic watches, both with 2824-2 movements, neither are particularly expensive (Hamilton and Longines)

I rotate through them based on dress, belt color and occasion (business or casual). The Longines has a screw in crown. On occasion one them may run down if I don't wear it for a few days or the whole weekend.

Should I:

1. Get a winder?
2. Manual mind them to keep power reserve?
3. Shake them every day and do the hokey pokey?
4. Let it run down and just pick one up and adjust the time when needed?

I am aware of the convenience factor of watch winders, but I'm more interested in keeping the mechanism free of wear and damage.


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## nocnoc (Nov 22, 2010)

If you read the thread carefully the wear and damage question is answered here better than in any other thread on the matter I read.

Short answer: Keeping the watch on the winder for a year without wearing less will cause more wear than simply not wearing it and winding after a year. :-d

It will be only for your convenience. Since you will be wearing them regularly, they will get just as much wear being worn as on the winder. As far as stress in the stem from winding them, only some watches take badly to that if you aren't ham-fisted. MOST watches will take badly to it, if you are indeed clumsy.

The winder also presents an advantage in that the watches tend to run more accurately when the mainspring balance is good. So I'd get a double winder for under $100. I also have the Bellocia winder mentioned elsewhere and it is indeed good and only costs around $40.


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