# The Genesis of a New Boutique Chinese Watchmaker - Design your Dream Chinese watch



## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Dear friends,

If you could design your ideal Chinese watch (dress watch for now, maybe sports later on) at around the 250 USD pricepoint, what features would you choose? A friend of mine is thinking of getting Sea-Gull or Beijing Factory to produce a line of watches at top-spec (SB18-3 or ST2130 movement, sapphire front and back etc) for his brand and I suggested selling a few on this forum to fellow fans of Chinese watches. He finds Chinese watch quality to be very impressive but was dissatisfied that most of them don't have a classically Chinese soul that recalls the grand tradition of Vintage Chinese Mechanicals. He wants his watches to be proudly Chinese, and have a discrete elegant look.

So far the possible features are - 

baton hour markers
中国制造 at bottom
red jewel on second hand (like VCMs)
textured (like VCMs) or sunburst dial
bespoke steel case with teardrop lugs
combination of polished and brushed on the case
date in red (like VCMs)
offering 2 dials - maybe silver and royal blue
beautiful calligraphic script on the dial for the name of the watch, which will be inspired by classical Song dynasty poetry
free lifetime servicing (to testify to the tremendous durability and reliability of China Made watches!)
limited edition of 100 pieces globally

Please add on any suggestions!

I hope this does not violate any forum rules - if we get to the point where watches will be sold on the forum we will definitely seek the necessary approval. This thread is just to garner ideas and suggestions from you Chinese watch experts!


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## wilsonhui (Aug 1, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

Ideally, I'd like my Chinese name printed or engraved, but I don't think that's going to happen. 

I'd like it to see something like a GMT bezel or just markers on the dial, but for shíchén 时辰


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## Unikagen (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

There are some great examples of fine Chinese watches and you can get a lot of inspiration from them. Sea-Gull does some gorgeous watches for the price. I like seeing a little Chinese heritage in the design but not too much. I don't speak a word of Chinese so I'd like to be able to read every character on my watch.  I think it's important to find a good balance, culturally, if you want to be able to sell the watch internationally. If it's all red and gold with dragons and indecipherable Chinese calligraphy I'll have a hard time connecting to it. Does that make sense? 

One other thing I'd suggest is a GOOD STRAP. Every Chinese watch I've handled or owned, however nice the watch itself, always has a mediocre leather strap.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



wilsonhui said:


> Ideally, I'd like my Chinese name printed or engraved, but I don't think that's going to happen.
> 
> I'd like it to see something like a GMT bezel or just markers on the dial, but for shíchén 时辰


Maybe not on the dial, but engraving your name individually might be possible on the caseback or movement. After all what would separate this watch is its low production run and a far greater standard of attention and quality control than average.

There won't be a bezel for this one as it's a dress watch; maybe for future models. As for shichen, I think it might be too much and would stay with baton markers in gold or silver. But since there will be two different dials with two runs of watches, shichen may be possible on one dial as an alternative.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



Negakinu said:


> There are some great examples of fine Chinese watches and you can get a lot of inspiration from them. Sea-Gull does some gorgeous watches for the price. I like seeing a little Chinese heritage in the design but not too much. I don't speak a word of Chinese so I'd like to be able to read every character on my watch.  I think it's important to find a good balance, culturally, if you want to be able to sell the watch internationally. If it's all red and gold with dragons and indecipherable Chinese calligraphy I'll have a hard time connecting to it. Does that make sense?
> 
> One other thing I'd suggest is a GOOD STRAP. Every Chinese watch I've handled or owned, however nice the watch itself, always has a mediocre leather strap.


Indeed, the watch is meant to be collectively inspired by the tradition of all Chinese vintage watches, and we might draw upon foreign vintage influences like the teardrop lugs.]

The Chinese influences will be very restrained and elegant, nothing like what you have described. I think the only Chinese characters will be 中国制造 and maybe the brand name in calligraphic script. The only red will be the jewel on the second hand which recalls VCM tradition. We might do a textured dial like the old Wuyi and the old Sea-Gull wings logo on the crown instead of the current S crown.

Strap-wise no issues, I work with an excellent strap-maker who stitches straps by hand from all sorts of skins (gator, stingray, lizard etc) and we can arrange a bespoke strap to be attached to match whatever price range the customer desires. There will be only one hole on the strap measured perfectly for your wrist. Perfection defined.

It's not just Chinese watches that have bad straps. I have yet to see a Swiss or German watch which has OEM straps equal to this guy's work, not even on some 300,000 euro tourbillons. And he is less expensive than they are, which certainly helps.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

Here are examples of a teardrop lugs with a simple dial. I don't think there is anything with such a case at this price range, or ten times more.





















Otherwise, we could always just do a WUXING (China's first watch) style watch.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

I reckon you've covered all the essentials. The only thing that is not appealing to me is the teardrop lugs which seem a bit fancy/fussy to me. My preference is for the more restrained lug styles of VCMs. But that's just me. It may be that the right dress-style lugs will in fact make the watch more than the sum of its parts.


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

Fancy case-back.

I'm starting to find the case-backs on Chinese watches more entertaining than the dials. That's so sad!


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## aron (Feb 26, 2009)

Great idea, I'd be down for both dial versions!! I would like two more features: a) no bigger than 38mm and b) absolutely no lume.

I love the lugs on that first VC too. I would also hope it'd be a proper collaboration so the manufacturer would actually put their label and logo on it!


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## eisenhower (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

something with a minute repeater that uses a micro gong

THANKS, BYE.


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## IanC (Jul 3, 2010)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

I did something similar before (See : https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/most-massive-unboxing-ever-200-watches-691519.html)

You are not going to get seagull/beijing or any other big name factory to produce 100 watches for $250, with ST21 and sapphire crystal. Unless you are the CEO's son or something. They charge like $150 for a batch of 500 watches with ST16 and mineral glass (i asked). Big factories will not budge from the MOQ of 500 pieces unless you have connections, they don't want to waste their time on small orders.

I don't think you can get free lifetime servicing either. Unless you want to charge exclusive prices to match (because the factory will certaintly demand exclusive prices from you for this, if they are even willing to consider the idea).

Another main problem is...okay, let's assume you produced all the watches. They are all perfect (this will probably not happen, but let's assume). Where are you going to sell them? This is going to take...well...pretty much forever unless you have industry connections or sell them at cost. Average person on the net goes "Chinese -> Unknown brand -> Must be a scam".

If your friend just wants one watch of a particular design, he would be better off getting the parts, a custom dial done up, and getting a watchmaker to fit everything together. It's going to be much cheaper than spending thousands of dollars on a whole line of watches.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



Defiant4Ever said:


> Fancy case-back.


Good idea.

If this concept is all about understated good taste then perhaps a top-quality movement can be trusted to speak for itself through its performance without being advertised with a display back. That would provide a lot more space to pay homage to some of the classic VCM casebacks. Lots of diverse designs out there from which to draw inspiration.


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## xingfenzhen (Aug 20, 2011)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

Ideas:


> 中国制造 at bottom


Like, but, 中国·天津 or 中国·上海 or 中国·北京 would be better.



> red jewel on second hand (like VCMs)


Don't really like, it's a different era now. However would like a clean, thin second hand. For some reason, I really like the hands on my 55th.



> textured (like VCMs) or sunburst dial


would like brushed dial like the Blue Mako



> date in red (like VCMs)





> beautiful calligraphic script on the dial for the name of the watch, which will be inspired by classical Song dynasty poetry


Better to be on the case back，how about this one, with a nice art to go with it. 
碧云天 
黄叶地 
秋色连波 
波上寒烟翠



> free lifetime servicing (to testify to the tremendous durability and reliability of China Made watches!)


Nice to have, but 3 years would be plenty for me.

limited edition of 100 pieces globally, would be nice. But Chinese watch watch companies are volume producers. The ways going forwards would be get some ideas into Kevin's head to get things rolling. (Like what he did WuYi and Sea-King)

My other ideals would be:
-A day-date watch with a option for Chinese language day of the week
-If Sea-Gull, use of the old sea-gull logo. (another reason I like my 55th) I'm fine with the current Beijing and Shanghai logos


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



Chascomm said:


> I reckon you've covered all the essentials. The only thing that is not appealing to me is the teardrop lugs which seem a bit fancy/fussy to me. My preference is for the more restrained lug styles of VCMs. But that's just me. It may be that the right dress-style lugs will in fact make the watch more than the sum of its parts.


Thanks, the teardrop lugs are still not decided but I think they add a measure of grace to a dress watch. It would be slightly different from Beijing's teadrop lugs case (seen on the Beihai for example). I don't think there is any small watch brand on the market with a case specially designed for their watch, especially with such a low production run and on a single model. Even high-end brands like Patek and Lange re-use watch cases across their model range.

On the other hand, VCMs are characterised by their gentle honesty and combine practicality, reliability and a not inconsiderable measure of charm and humour. We wish to capture that in our watches, so perhaps we might go for plainer VCM lugs in the end. As always, your input is always appreciated and will count towards the final design.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



aron said:


> Great idea, I'd be down for both dial versions!! I would like two more features: a) no bigger than 38mm and b) absolutely no lume.
> 
> I love the lugs on that first VC too. I would also hope it'd be a proper collaboration so the manufacturer would actually put their label and logo on it!


Thank you. Yes the watches we offer will likely be under 40mm and for our first model we are looking at 38mm. Definitely no lume, since this is a dress watch. I personally have an inclination for classic vintage watch proportions, but recognise that for sportier models a larger size is preferred.

In future we will have a desk clock using the ST36 movement modelled after a 1930s clock, an 18k rose gold model, and a sports watch that will be larger than 40mm.

There is nothing on the market at any price with lugs like that first VC (I know, since I loved that design on sight and looked everywhere, even asking some of the AHCI masters to produce one for me - but they could not).

We will most certainly put our logo on it. It will be tastefully designed to harmonise with our watch dials across our range.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



IanC said:


> I did something similar before (See : https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/most-massive-unboxing-ever-200-watches-691519.html)
> 
> You are not going to get seagull/beijing or any other big name factory to produce 100 watches for $250, with ST21 and sapphire crystal. Unless you are the CEO's son or something. They charge like $150 for a batch of 500 watches with ST16 and mineral glass (i asked). Big factories will not budge from the MOQ of 500 pieces unless you have connections, they don't want to waste their time on small orders.
> 
> ...


Yes I followed your thread and your experience has been enlightening.

Well, the simple fact of the matter is that it can be done, and *we will be doing it.* The first run will be 200 pieces (2 different dials, 100 pieces each) with the ST2130 movement. Sapphire front and back.

Parenthetically, isn't the 2013 Forum watch (of which I am buying two) a run of 150 pieces at 250 USD or so each? It has the ST21 and sapphire as well.

Furthermore, we will be on the ground in China and will deal face-to-face with the factory. As anyone with experience doing business in China knows, that helps immeasurably.

And we *will *offer lifetime servicing, but not charge "exclusive" prices. Please see the posts below for more details on our house philosophy.

There is no such thing as perfection in anything in this life. I will not say that every single one of our watches will be 100% perfect (which watch brand can and does?) but the fact that differentiates us is that we are willing to stand by our product and will work with and listen to the customer before, during and after the watch is made. You all are already participating in the "BEFORE" phase, by giving us input in the design of our first model. Ultimately if there is any problem with the watch, we will fix it. And if there is any issue with service, we are all ears. That will be our guiding principle.

Knowing my friend, he will have little problem moving the watches. They are made and priced as a premium product, but I convinced him to allocate 10 pieces (out of 200), 5 of each dial, for this forum in appreciation for the work this forum does in promoting Chinese watchmaking. There will be both a WUS discount as well as a pre-order discount as a result, which will lower the price within reach of more of our supporters. My friend runs a very high-level style house (fashion is not quite the right word here) dealing in bespoke tailored clothing and lifestyle products which markets to an elite clientele, and originally wanted to offer his watch line only in rose and white gold, but I persuaded him that one of the guiding principles of the Chinese horological universe is honesty and accessbility for the ordinary man who loves watches, and Chinese watches especially. The Tongji is testament to this.

Lastly, my friend does not "just wants one watch of a particular design", but rather desires to (further) raise the prestige of Chinese watchmaking, as well as "Made in China" products in general. We are both Overseas Chinese and born and educated abroad, but have an undying love for our homeland. We will combine the quality of China's best watchmakers (both Beijing and Shanghai) with our own unique design philosophy.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



Chascomm said:


> Good idea.
> 
> If this concept is all about understated good taste then perhaps a top-quality movement can be trusted to speak for itself through its performance without being advertised with a display back. That would provide a lot more space to pay homage to some of the classic VCM casebacks. Lots of diverse designs out there from which to draw inspiration.


That is a great idea. I thought of doing the "flying seagull caseback" seen on the ST5 or the "horse overtaking the swallow", but movement fetishisation is a trend these days (thankfully we do not bow to trends!) and most watch consumers want a transparent caseback. If there is sufficient support on this forum we might change it to a vintage-style caseback.

Another option is a tank or tonneau case - there is nothing from China's brands that does this with a high-quality movement.

One question to you folks - using the ST18 movement is possible but will cost us 140 USD more. Is this an upgrade you all would be willing to pay for? The ST18 is of course a lot more exclusive than the ST21.

Both the ST21 and ST18 are of course beautifully decorated with perlage, and are finished in excess of their ETA counterparts.

Would you prefer having the date on the dial, or not, in order to maintain the minimalism of the design?


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



xingfenzhen said:


> Ideas:
> 
> Like, but, 中国·天津 or 中国·上海 or 中国·北京 would be better.
> 
> ...


Noted, 中国·天津 or 中国·上海 or 中国·北京 will be a possibility.

We are considering engraving the back with "Made in China, with Pride", since this encapsulates our true feelings on our watches.

As for the second hand, what about the "jet hand" seen on the rare Honqi? I've always wanted one but have yet to find this VCM.

It is of course Chinese culture to respect the traditions of our ancestors, while at the same time pushing forward in progress. We might do the red jewelled second hand since there is no Chinese watch with that. The closest is the WUYI re-issue but that has a red arrow.

Thanks for the poem, that reads very nicely. We might do a 藏头诗, which is a customised poem whose leading words form up to read as a statement. Maybe something elegant like 爱我中华 with the associated words to follow.

Well I'll arrange a special 3 year warranty for you! 

The day-date watch with Hanzi day of week is in our design brief. That's one of the things I love in VCMs but cannot find in contemporary watches!

Yes, we might use the old Sea-Gull wings logo on the dial and crown. Another thing I miss dearly!

Lastly, I would like to state that we intend to be a boutique Chinese watch company, different from Beijing and Sea-Gull and the other factories. We will have a personal approach to the customer and you will have the opportunity to provide first-hand input to the designers directly over email or telephone. Our wish is borne out of the lack of such a thing in Chinese watchmaking culture, and the prevalence of such in Switzerland and especially Germany. In the few months I have spent on this forum, I have read many of you sighing that nothing like this exists in China; well now there is!

We hope to offer an alternative and infuse elegant designs with low production runs and a compact, highly-curated model line-up, in contrast to the other makers in China. Perhaps you could compare us to Stowa or Nomos in that respect, but we aim to provide higher quality at a cheaper price compared to them. Sure, we could use the cheap ST6 or ST16 and mineral crystal to give us a greater margin, but that is not what we are after. Our aim is to raise the prestige of Chinese watchmaking, and with your support, we will achieve it.

We will offer watches with the highest possible quality, at the best possible price to the consumer. My friend and I are Chinese watch lovers first and foremost, and this is our way of realising watch designs which the large Chinese makers ought to produce, but don't for some reason.

In other news, we have contacted Site Owner Ernie Romers and once he gives his appoval, we will provide further details on pricing and how to order the 10 allocated pieces for this subforum.


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## IanC (Jul 3, 2010)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

It sounds like you have serious connections with the watch industry in china, otherwise there is no way you can get seagull or beijing to make a watch for under 500 pieces, or offer lifetime servicing. Actually i can't think of many brands that offer lifetime servicing...it's a huge cost down the road. I don't know what's going on with the current forum project watch, but the last one had kelvin put it together using mostly off the shelf components, and it was a special request from WUS.

Anyway, it sounds like you have both the connections and experience to make it work, so i look forward to seeing the results.

Edit : I don't think the ST18 offers a substantial advantage over the ST21. I doubt anyone here's willing to pay 140 USD more for it.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

Actually with the current forum watch it is Thomas assembling the components in his own factory (unaffiliated with Sea-Gull) if I'm correct. I'm sure the arrangement is as advantageous to him as it is to our community.

The reason to go with off-the-shelf components was to save costs; I'm sure he could have provided bespoke cases and hands at a surcharge. Our brand's watches will do exactly this, even though we will sell the watches at around the same price as the Forum watch.

As far as I know, only Sea-Gull provide lifetime free servicing. It goes a long way to indicate the company's great confidence in their own products. We will like to do likewise.

The only difference between the ST18 and ST21 is the former's slimness. Functionally they are both identical.



IanC said:


> It sounds like you have serious connections with the watch industry in china, otherwise there is no way you can get seagull or beijing to make a watch for under 500 pieces, or offer lifetime servicing. Actually i can't think of many brands that offer lifetime servicing...it's a huge cost down the road. I don't know what's going on with the current forum project watch, but the last one had kelvin put it together using mostly off the shelf components, and it was a special request from WUS.
> 
> Anyway, it sounds like you have both the connections and experience to make it work, so i look forward to seeing the results.
> 
> Edit : I don't think the ST18 offers a substantial advantage over the ST21. I doubt anyone here's willing to pay 140 USD more for it.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

We will likely base our watch on a similar design as the vintage Vacheron in the picture (identical to one from my private collection), but in steel, with ST2130 movement and no date. The hands and hour markers will be gold plated or steel. 38mm, sapphire crystal front and back, and normal or onion crown. Some of the design details still need to be decided.

The two different dial editions will either be cream/silver sunburst, and midnight blue or racing green. One dial could have English writing and the other in Chinese. The idea is for something that is distinct from the great mass of commercial watches out there at every price level, while remaining at all times unquestionably classic; something that will stand the test of time admirably.

Our brand ethos will encapsulate elegant design influenced by vintage style and Chinese tradition.


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



monsieurxu said:


> We will likely base our watch on a similar design as the vintage Vacheron in the picture (identical to one from my private collection), but in steel, with ST2130 movement and no date.


I would prefer minute markers. I have the ST18 M198S and I hate waiting for the minute hand to line-up with a 5min marker to sync the time.


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## xingfenzhen (Aug 20, 2011)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



monsieurxu said:


> Noted, 中国·天津 or 中国·上海 or 中国·北京 will be a possibility.
> 
> We are considering engraving the back with "Made in China, with Pride", since this encapsulates our true feelings on our watches.
> 
> ...


"Made in China, with Pride" would be a given with this watch.

I okay with red jeweled hands (after all, I own a seagull and a shanghai VCM with it), just it feels vintage. Since this isn't a reissue, it just feels weird. The red jeweled hands are to me symbol of 那个火热的年代， Which while important and formative, we're glad that it's over.

藏头诗is okay, but it's difficult to write a good one. I personally would prefer a stanza or two from a classic poem.



monsieurxu said:


> Lastly, I would like to state that we intend to be a boutique Chinese watch company, different from Beijing and Sea-Gull and the other factories. We will have a personal approach to the customer and you will have the opportunity to provide first-hand input to the designers directly over email or telephone. Our wish is borne out of the lack of such a thing in Chinese watchmaking culture, and the prevalence of such in Switzerland and especially Germany. In the few months I have spent on this forum, I have read many of you sighing that nothing like this exists in China; well now there is!
> 
> We hope to offer an alternative and infuse elegant designs with low production runs and a compact, highly-curated model line-up, in contrast to the other makers in China. Perhaps you could compare us to Stowa or Nomos in that respect, but we aim to provide higher quality at a cheaper price compared to them. Sure, we could use the cheap ST6 or ST16 and mineral crystal to give us a greater margin, but that is not what we are after. Our aim is to raise the prestige of Chinese watchmaking, and with your support, we will achieve it.
> 
> ...


Good ideas, I believe the large Chinese watch maker, especially the SoE are more interested in real estate deal on their old factories rather than watches. A symptoms of the times I guess. This brand building and quality isn't quick money, thus it get sidelined when quick money available.


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## flawless51 (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

Classic design, under 40mm is definitely the right direction.

I think the older Datejust does a lot of things right:
The classic, simple case
Big lug holes
Cylinder-shaped second hand
Prominent bezel










I think the crown would be an important aspect to this watch, and it would be more noticeable on a subtle piece like this. I love how crowns on older watches aren't flat on the inner side. They're crimped inward like so:









Orient had a crown like that one of their recent watches too:










And I think having it as a *screw-down* is a must.

I'll add that creative ways of signing a crown, like Grand Seiko does, and a nice crown grip/ridges also really adds a lot.










I think there are too many black dials around, so I think coloured (or at least a colour option) would be nice, as long as it's dark and subtle. Maybe a sunburst dial with a thick layer of lacquer over it to give it a liquid look. I'm thinking very dark brown? Maybe even dark blue-grey, or dark green. Having the text in gold would be nice too. A raised logo is a must.

Plain, rectangular stick markers are always good. Sometimes tastefully done, small arabic raised numeral markers can look really nice (but usually when it's just on the 12, or maybe the 3, 6, 9, and 12).










Non-lumed hands are a must for a dress watch, but they shouldn't be flat and boring! I like how some dauphine minute/hour hands have a crease in middle of them to give them some depth.










Cap it off with a domed sapphire crystal to give it that really classic look... I think that's essential.

Lastly, maybe we can be a little more creative with the choice of movements. Sea-gull does a nice clone of the 2892 (ST18?), with way smoother handwinding than the ST21. There's another Chinese movement that Stuhrling uses in the Tempest. It has twin barrels, huge power reserve, and a full balance bridge. Maybe some variation of this could be an option?

Of course all these pics are taken from the web - some then edited by me.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



Defiant4Ever said:


> I would prefer minute markers. I have the ST18 M198S and I hate waiting for the minute hand to line-up with a 5min marker to sync the time.


Yes, we will likely do minute markers, similar to the "floaty" style seen on the ST5 and other VCMs.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



xingfenzhen said:


> "Made in China, with Pride" would be a given with this watch.
> 
> I okay with red jeweled hands (after all, I own a seagull and a shanghai VCM with it), just it feels vintage. Since this isn't a reissue, it just feels weird. The red jeweled hands are to me symbol of 那个火热的年代， Which while important and formative, we're glad that it's over.
> 
> ...


We're thinking of leaving the caseback bare except for the Limited Edition number (eg 001/200) on top and "Made in China with Pride" at the bottom.

Any suggestions for the classic poem? Something from Su Shi or Li Bai perhaps?

Yes, we aim to be a small boutique Chinese watchmaker offering bespoke designs and quality with personal service. Assuredly we will not be a mushroom brand but one combining the *very best *China has to offer with fair prices and beautiful, elegant, pure style.

I'm also working with my friend who is a world-class leather goods maker to try to do a stock strap that's better than Sea-Gull's while still including it in the price. Beyond that we will give the option to upgrade to a strap of any exotic type (eg gator, stingray, lizard). For straps at both price tiers we will take your wrist measurements and attach a bespoke strap with a single (or two if you prefer) hole. The watch will be truly special, unique, and bespoke!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



flawless51 said:


> Classic design, under 40mm is definitely the right direction.
> 
> I think the older Datejust does a lot of things right:
> The classic, simple case
> ...


Thank you for your suggestions!

We will be doing one dial in cream or silver sunburst and another dial in either midnight blue or racing green (limited to 100 pieces each). The idea is to offer something not seen on commercial watches at any price range and to design something with true style and elegant grace, qualities that are embodied in Chinese traditional dress, for example the flowing robes of the shenyi.

The baton markers and hands will be faceted and three-dimensional. Domed sapphire crystal will be standard of course.

The ST18 is a possibility but will raise the price of the watch by 140 USD. I asked previously how many here would be willing to pay the extra.

The logo will be written in cursive in English. The theme colour (corresponding with our house name) of our watchhouse will be (sneak preview!) elegant and blue-green and based on a traditional Chinese artform. Any one care to guess?


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## flawless51 (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



monsieurxu said:


> Thank you for your suggestions!
> 
> We will be doing one dial in cream or silver sunburst and another dial in either midnight blue or racing green (limited to 100 pieces each). The idea is to offer something not seen on commercial watches at any price range and to design something with true style and elegant grace, qualities that are embodied in Chinese traditional dress, for example the flowing robes of the shenyi.
> 
> ...


Sounds really good! Glad you're going with the domed sapphire, faceted hands, and 3d baton markers.

I didn't realize the ST18 was so expensive! Wow. The name of the inexpensive, Chinese, double barrel, full balance bridge movement that I mentioned is the PTS Z2015... in case you're interested..

Any chance of the 1.2-1.3mm lug holes being implemented? I think they really add something to the look of a watch, and they're also so practical. I guess if you're going with that elaborate looking Vacheron case, it might not be the same, but they look so nice on a classic dress watch case.


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

Color me interested, I'm liking the way this is looking so far. I'll be following this thread


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## mikephuvie (Jan 9, 2008)

A classic Patek 3796 in stainless steel at 38mm.


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## xingfenzhen (Aug 20, 2011)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*

the poem i quoted was 苏幕遮 by 范仲淹. 
also how about 同心罗帕轻藏素，合字香囊半影金。
it's from 思佳客 by 高观国, full poem as follows

翦翠衫儿稳四停
最怜一曲凤箫吟
同心罗帕轻藏素
合字香囊半影金

春思悄
昼窗深
谁能拘束少年心
莺来惊碎风流胆
踏动樱桃叶底铃


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## flawless51 (Oct 24, 2007)

mikephuvie said:


> A classic Patek 3796 in stainless steel at 38mm.


Looks amazing!! Beautiful, big lug holes. Great case shape. And those markers.. both the hour markers and minute markers are just perfect. That bezel too.


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## Louis888 (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



monsieurxu said:


> Noted, 中国·天津 or 中国·上海 or 中国·北京 will be a possibility.
> 
> We are considering engraving the back with "Made in China, with Pride", since this encapsulates our true feelings on our watches.


You can make something with pride, but that does not necessarily make it a quality product. I believe that the quality of a product will speak for itself. In my opinion, adding "with pride" is just over doing things.


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## aron (Feb 26, 2009)

Louis888 said:


> You can make something with pride, but that does not necessarily make it a quality product. I believe that the quality of a product will speak for itself. In my opinion, adding "with pride" is just over doing things.


+1. Also, I notice many seem to be clamoring for a patek-inspired (among other marques) watch instead of a Chinese vcm inspired watch...if the ultimate product becomes a swiss-inspired watch with some Chinese labeling on it, I have to admit I'll be a bit disappointed , regardless of the quality...


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## flawless51 (Oct 24, 2007)

aron said:


> +1. Also, I notice many seem to be clamoring for a patek-inspired (among other marques) watch instead of a Chinese vcm inspired watch...if the ultimate product becomes a swiss-inspired watch with some Chinese labeling on it, I have to admit I'll be a bit disappointed , regardless of the quality...


There are a lot of similarities between watches from around the world of the same era. Swiss or otherwise. The things that differentiate VCMs are the what were discussed earlier in the thread, like the red jewel on the second hand, the red date wheel, etc.

I think that having an unusual case design, such as the teardrop lugs would be the biggest departure from the whole VCM idea, and would be a big mistake.

Browsing through this thread, I see how a lot of the major aspects of the VCMs tend to be quite typical for any watch of the same era, but it's the little details that make them distinctly Chinese: https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/581s-shanghai-beijing-sea-gull-vs-other-brands-models-474882.html


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



flawless51 said:


> Sounds really good! Glad you're going with the domed sapphire, faceted hands, and 3d baton markers.
> 
> I didn't realize the ST18 was so expensive! Wow. The name of the inexpensive, Chinese, double barrel, full balance bridge movement that I mentioned is the PTS Z2015... in case you're interested..
> 
> Any chance of the 1.2-1.3mm lug holes being implemented? I think they really add something to the look of a watch, and they're also so practical. I guess if you're going with that elaborate looking Vacheron case, it might not be the same, but they look so nice on a classic dress watch case.


Thank you. I don't think we will use the PTS as our intention is for a top-flight movement to power our watch.

Furthermore, either Sea-Gull or Beijing (most likely the former) will be building our watches so we will be using their in-house movement. That is one major distinction between us and the mushroom brands - that instead of buying second-grade movements and assembling them ourselves, we will use AAA grade ones and have them cased by the manufacturer themselves to their usual high standards, and then go one step further and inspect them by eye and hand.

So whatever quality you have come to expect from Sea-Gull or Beijing, you may expect the same and more for our watchhouse.

Sure, we will take your suggestion for the lug holes into consideration for the final design, thanks.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

mikephuvie said:


> A classic Patek 3796 in stainless steel at 38mm.


I think we can make our watch more graceful than this. The prominent bezel and yellow gold on the Patek make it seem somewhat gaudy.

Also, as Chascomm states, sweep center seconds are one of the hallmarks of Chinese watches dating back to the Qing era (with Bovet pocket watches for the Chinese market). They are also one of my personal preferences in a wristwatch.

Where else would we put the little red jewel!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: Design your ideal Chinese watch*



xingfenzhen said:


> the poem i quoted was 苏幕遮 by 范仲淹.
> also how about 同心罗帕轻藏素，合字香囊半影金。
> it's from 思佳客 by 高观国, full poem as follows
> 
> ...


Thanks for the beautiful poetry!

One issue is how to fit such a poem on the back given the sapphire caseback. Unless customers would be willing to forego looking at the movement in exchange for some Song Dynasty poetry. What do you all think?


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

aron said:


> +1. Also, I notice many seem to be clamoring for a patek-inspired (among other marques) watch instead of a Chinese vcm inspired watch...if the ultimate product becomes a swiss-inspired watch with some Chinese labeling on it, I have to admit I'll be a bit disappointed , regardless of the quality...


Quality and pride in craftsmanship may be obvious to you all as connoisseurs of Chinese mechanical watches, but they are sometimes not so apparent to many outside this subforum.

One of our stated goals in realising our watchhouse is to raise the prestige of "China Made" watches worldwide, and ultimately "Made in China" for all products in general. You will always have the chap who insists on comparing a M177s to a Calatrava and remark how the former is "crap", conveniently ignoring the 100 fold price distinction.

In owning our watches, you will always have the finest quality for the price in the wristwatch universe, coupled with inimitable Chinese design charisma. I will *NEVER *sell a watch that I personally would not be *utterly *proud to put on my wrist, and I have had the privilege of having had many supposedly "valuable" timepieces. But none *touch my heart* like Chinese watches do.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

flawless51 said:


> There are a lot of similarities between watches from around the world of the same era. Swiss or otherwise. The things that differentiate VCMs are the what were discussed earlier in the thread, like the red jewel on the second hand, the red date wheel, etc.
> 
> I think that having an unusual case design, such as the teardrop lugs would be the biggest departure from the whole VCM idea, and would be a big mistake.
> 
> Browsing through this thread, I see how a lot of the major aspects of the VCMs tend to be quite typical for any watch of the same era, but it's the little details that make them distinctly Chinese: https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/581s-shanghai-beijing-sea-gull-vs-other-brands-models-474882.html


I notice that there are now two distinct design paths that members here are taking - one enthusiastic for a design faithful to the tradition of VCMs (with the red jewel, Chinese characters on dial and date in red for example), and another going for a more international, culture-neutral, clean look (something like the Patek and Vacheron above). My personal preference is for the former, but I would like to add a poll to this thread to see what members here are more keen on.

I might add that we do not wish to do an ad verbatim re-issue as such, but rather take the most endearing traits of VCMs and synthesise them for a contemporary *Chinese *timepiece, symbolising the admirable progress that China has made since the 50s (when the domestic industry started) and the 70s (where many great VCMs like the ST5 were designed and produced), both in the horological as well as in the wider field.

Teardrop lugs in the style of the vintage Vacheron were not seen on VCMs, but the related clawfoot lugs were used on various vintage Sea-Gulls in the 80s, and can still be seen on the modern Beijing Beihai and other SB18 watches. I think they gel well with the harmonious curvaceousness which pervades the VCM genre. We certainly hope to break some new ground design-wise.

On this day, the day after the Mid-Autumn Festival, and the 62nd anniversary of the establishment of the People's Republic of China, I thank you all for your support in our undertaking, and I pledge wholeheartedly to deliver some of the most charming watches that China and the world have ever seen!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

One question I'd like to ask members here is if they are willing to wait longer for a bespoke case especially made for this watch. According to Sea-Gull, they would need about 6 months to produce the case with teardrop lugs, but it would be completely new and also break new ground design-wise in the Chinese watch universe.

If we were to use an off-the-shelf case, it would take only 3 months to produce the watch. But I am willing to delay sales in order to have our first watch absolutely right, and absolutely *beautiful*.

Another point I'd like to make about Chinese watches, especially the vintage ones, is about their tremendous yet understated charisma. If you look at the vast majority of Swiss and German watches (for example the Patek and Vacheron pictured further up this thread), the very clean dial dress watches are minimal, but have no character in my opinion. Their dials are plain, lacking in tastefully used colour and devoid of soul. Whereas for most German watches, their austere dials, numerals and cases reflect an extremely tool-ish pragmatic look which doesn't harmonise with a dress watch. In my estimation these brands simply cannot design dress watches in a charming way, and are identikit in appearance. Their designers are probably so caught up in having to make their watches look "luxurious" in order to justify their ten-fold markup, that they lose all the humour and fun in the process.

But if you compare the lovely vintage Chinese watches shown here (thanks to Ron!) The Art and Colour of Chinese Vintage Watch Dials « AMCH/PR : ARTICLES 'n' STUFF, it is clear that even though they are mostly simple three-hand watches (some with or without date), the Chinese designers added subtle flourishes that never fail to bring a smile to my face. For example, the red jewel, calligraphic "上海", mesmerising textured dials, interesting hour markers, adorable use of Chinese symbolic imagery such as the cute panda and meihualu deer, tasteful use of colour on dials, and even the tongue-in-cheek "Diamond" logo.

To me, these design cues add undeniable character, yet reflect a self-effacing, cultured aesthetic which in my opinion represents well the mentality of the Chinese nation.


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## mikephuvie (Jan 9, 2008)

Some of the most attractive dress watches are understated. There are several books on vintage Patek and others, perhaps we can use them for inspiration and create an attractive original design of our own. Calatrava model 96 (I like the 3796), the case design has not changed in a long long time, the dimension keeps getting bigger to satisfy the craze for bigger and bigger watchs. Patek 3919 is another classic watch. Simplicity dial design can be timeless, Cartier Tank dial has not changed since its creation. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. I would love to buy more Chinese watches if they are classically designed than contemporary. Just my own preferences.


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

mikephuvie said:


> Some of the most attractive dress watches are understated. There are several books on vintage Patek and others, perhaps we can use them for inspiration and create an attractive original design of our own. Calatrava model 96 (I like the 3796), the case design has not changed in a long long time, the dimension keeps getting bigger to satisfy the craze for bigger and bigger watchs. Patek 3919 is another classic watch. Simplicity dial design can be timeless, Cartier Tank dial has not changed since its creation. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. I would love to buy more Chinese watches if they are classically designed than contemporary. Just my own preferences.


But why look at Switzerland when designing a Chinese watch?


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## flawless51 (Oct 24, 2007)

monsieurxu said:


> One question I'd like to ask members here is if they are willing to wait longer for a bespoke case especially made for this watch. According to Sea-Gull, they would need about 6 months to produce the case with teardrop lugs, but it would be completely new and also break new ground design-wise in the Chinese watch universe.


I don't like the look teardrop lugs. How about the others here?


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## mikephuvie (Jan 9, 2008)

Oldheritage said:


> But why look at Switzerland when designing a Chinese watch?


For inspiration only, create our own "timeless" design, design that will stand the test of time rather than a design brlong to a certain era. It certainly is not an easy task. I can't wait to buy another Chinese watch if the design and quality is to my liking. I saw the Sea-Gull 816.351 and bought one, quite impressed with the watch regardless of the price. I have looked at others but so far have not been motivated to get another.

As for the tear drop lugs, I once own a VC, sold it a while back. I am eager to see the finish design, perhaps will buy one.


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

Any plans to tell us more about the company?


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## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

flawless51 said:


> I don't like the look teardrop lugs. How about the others here?


Not doing it for me either. Way too baroque.

If it were up to me, I'd try to come up with a clean modern design that connects in a lighthearted cheerful tongue-in-cheek way with the past. Just as an example, have a look at how the 'Sixties' line of Glashuette Original connects to their communist era designs.


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

mikephuvie said:


> For inspiration only, create our own "timeless" design, design that will stand the test of time rather than a design brlong to a certain era. It certainly is not an easy task. I can't wait to buy another Chinese watch if the design and quality is to my liking. I saw the Sea-Gull 816.351 and bought one, quite impressed with the watch regardless of the price. I have looked at others but so far have not been motivated to get another.
> 
> As for the tear drop lugs, I once own a VC, sold it a while back. I am eager to see the finish design, perhaps will buy one.


Yes, but why not look at vintage Chinese watches to design a Chinese watch?


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## mikephuvie (Jan 9, 2008)

Was there a real Chinese design? If so, perhaps we can do a retro? I have no objection to that.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

Even with a solid stainless case, I've always liked this subtle lug treatment which harkens to a teardrop without being as decidedly vintage a look. Something in this direction might suit both modern and classic tastes...

Web Album

One of the pictures you'll find at the above link:


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## LLLLim (Oct 4, 2012)

Wow this venture sounds really promising. I'd like to order 4 watches - 2 watches of both dials for both my partner and I.

And I vote for midnight blue for the second dial!

Please put a red jewel on the second hand as well. I think that'll be a great homage to the VCM look.


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

LLLLim said:


> I'd like to order 4 watches - 2 watches of both dials for both my partner and I.


Whom are you buying from?


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## demag (Feb 12, 2012)

Any pictures, drawings, rough sketches, computer images yet? Or still only ideas?


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## demag (Feb 12, 2012)

Hi LLLLim welcome to the Forum. How did you hear about the project? Is it common knowledge?


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## LLLLim (Oct 4, 2012)

Defiant4Ever said:


> Whom are you buying from?


The OP monsieurxu? I thought it was obvious in his opening post?

I PM'ed him after posting on this thread just in case, and he got back to me real quickly saying that he would put me on the pre-order list and give me the WUS discount and extra pre-order discount. I got to choose my serial number and told him my preferences for the design (as they are not set in stone yet).

Cheers,
Lim


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## LLLLim (Oct 4, 2012)

demag said:


> Hi LLLLim welcome to the Forum. How did you hear about the project? Is it common knowledge?


Hi there thanks for the welcome demag! Please see my post above. Arent the project details obvious in the opening post? I figured I would PM him to order and it worked.

Also I arranged to meet the founder when he's in Singapore next month or in London where he lives as I'm flying up there on business. Will report back with deets! But he should be releasing more juicy news next week including the drawings!!

Cheers,
Lim

ps forgot to mention if you want to order you should hurry as I think there are only 2 or 3 watches left from the WUS allocation.


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

LLLLim said:


> The OP monsieurxu? I thought it was obvious in his opening post?
> Lim


Who is he? What's the company? dah-dah-dah

A new member arrives and tells us they have ordered. Ordered what? What does it look like?

There are only a few more left - order now!

I'm surprised this thread is still kicking.

It seems to gone from market research to selling. Forum rules?

At least give us a website that we can visit to check you out?


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## demag (Feb 12, 2012)

No one in their right mind would order a watch that is just an image in one man's head. What have you bought? What does it look like? Where are the pictures, images, prototypes? You can't just buy a.....a......nothing!

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2


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## LLLLim (Oct 4, 2012)

Defiant4Ever said:


> Who is he? What's the company? dah-dah-dah
> 
> A new member arrives and tells us they have ordered. Ordered what? What does it look like?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I was unclear but I frankly find the tone of your post somewhat combative.

I did not post my first post here with the intention of notifying you that I ordered the watches (if you were referring to me by "new member arrives") - my intention of posting was to communicate my wish to be included directly to the founder, the OP. Which I presume this thread is for?

Member aron posted in the 2nd or 3rd page saying he would be down for both dials - but I'm guessing this is not a firm commitment until the founder provides him with hard details and a sketch of what the watch looks like, and I doubt the founder expects this to be a firm commitment.

As I explained earlier, I simply asked to be put on his pre-order list. No money or watches have changed hands so there is no sale here. It is simply me stating to him that I intend to purchase 4 of his watches when it is ready. Obviously once the watch picture and details are available he will make them available to both me and the others who are on his list. He will also presumably post them on this thread.

And I am not asking you to "örder now!" as you quote - you are free to do whatever you want.

I will let the founder provide any other info as required as I do not wish to become some sort of unofficial spokesman for the company. Talk about scaring away newcomers to the Chinese Watch scene!!


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## LLLLim (Oct 4, 2012)

demag said:


> No one in their right mind would order a watch that is just an image in one man's head. What have you bought? What does it look like? Where are the pictures, images, prototypes? You can't just buy a.....a......nothing!
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2


Hi there again, please refer to my post above in reply to member defiant4ever. As I said I doubt there is any obligation to purchase the watches even though I've stated my desire to order them, until the founder provides me photos or mockups and hard details - ie movement, case and all that. Obviously there is an advantage to getting in early (I can choose my serial no etc in what is a limited edition of 100 watches) which is why he gave me the pre-order discount and forum discount on top of that.

I'll repeat again lest other members here misunderstand - I've not paid him any money thus far and doubt he expects any payment until pictures and prototypes of the watches are shown. I'm guessing the pre-order discount applies if you pay a deposit when the design is finalised and the watches go into production, as opposed to buying them after the watches are all done. I'm just guessing here and going by common business logic, so Í'll let the founder speak for the company. From my PM with him I believe he is currently overseas enjoying the Golden Week holiday so he isn't posting here, but he still had the good grace to answer my PM expeditiously. It's a good indication of customer service already!

Also it is the Golden Week holiday in China so I think the watch factories are all shut and no one can get out any prototypes or drawings for now. Just hang in there till late next week and I'm sure cool stuff will be posted here.


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

LLLLim said:


> I'm not sure if I was unclear but I frankly find the tone of your post somewhat combative.


Jolly good, old chap.

Tickety-boo and all that.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

mikephuvie said:


> Some of the most attractive dress watches are understated. There are several books on vintage Patek and others, perhaps we can use them for inspiration and create an attractive original design of our own. Calatrava model 96 (I like the 3796), the case design has not changed in a long long time, the dimension keeps getting bigger to satisfy the craze for bigger and bigger watchs. Patek 3919 is another classic watch. Simplicity dial design can be timeless, Cartier Tank dial has not changed since its creation. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. I would love to buy more Chinese watches if they are classically designed than contemporary. Just my own preferences.


Hi mikephuvie, I fully agree that attractive dress watches are understated. That is precisely what we are aiming for with our first model - understated Chinese elegance. In fact we are indeed aiming to create a beautiful original design, drawing upon influences from VCMs as well as the wider world of vintage watches. The problem with both the Pateks you mentioned is they are small seconds dials, and sweep seconds are more true to the VCM character. To do a near copy of the Patek would result in a fairly bland, neutral watch that almost every brand out there makes, unless we were to tweak that design.

At the other extreme, to have a case similar to the Cartier Tank or the Reverso would just incite catcalls of "copy" and "fake". I think the best way forward design-wise is to establish an original design that is based on traditional Chinese watchmaking, and I agree with you that our watches should be classical rather than contemporary. When I mentioned "contemporary" earlier, I meant that we should not produce a complete VCM re-issue but rather update our design for the times but with a nod to vintage. I didn't mean huge gaudy dials or thick cases!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Defiant4Ever said:


> Any plans to tell us more about the company?


Hi Ian, we are still finalising the details on the watch and after that will issue a press release and details on how to order, but in the meantime what in particular would you like to know? Feel free to PM if you prefer.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

LCheapo said:


> Not doing it for me either. Way too baroque.
> 
> If it were up to me, I'd try to come up with a clean modern design that connects in a lighthearted cheerful tongue-in-cheek way with the past. Just as an example, have a look at how the 'Sixties' line of Glashuette Original connects to their communist era designs.


After looking at the first mock-up we have decided to drop the idea of teardrop lugs, agreeing that it looks too ornate and does not suit the restrained, self-effacing character of a Chinese watch. Flamboyant works for a VC, but for Chinese watches we gotta have standards! 

We will post the updated rendering once it is done, hopefully by next week. I like the way you're going with your second statement - that is exactly what we aim to do - to produce a modern design which still evokes the irrepressible character of the (vintage watch) heroes of China's past. The Glashuette is an excellent example as they were also under a communist regime before but are now privatised, and so shares a similar background with Chinese watchmaking.

Our own design will see the return of the much-loved red jewel (not seen on any modern Chinese watch to my knowledge, not even on re-issues) as well as a calligraphic brand logo in Chinese and 中国 at the bottom of the dial instead of China Made. This in our opinion is our way of connecting with VCM style - do any members here have any opinions or suggestions?


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

AlbertaTime said:


> Even with a solid stainless case, I've always liked this subtle lug treatment which harkens to a teardrop without being as decidedly vintage a look. Something in this direction might suit both modern and classic tastes...
> 
> Web Album
> 
> One of the pictures you'll find at the above link:


Thanks for chiming in Ron! It is an honour to have your opinion as you are truly an authority on VCMs. This lug design is interesting, and we will take it on board.

One issue is that a bespoke case will take twice as long as using an off-the-shelf Seagull or Beijing case. Are members here willing to wait for that?

Actually Ron, we would like to set up a poll on this thread - any idea on how to do it? We would like to poll if members here prefer a more VCM oriented design or a more culture-neutral classic dress watch. Also teardrop vs standard case vs other designs. And maybe ST18 vs ST21 vs SB18.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

LLLLim said:


> Wow this venture sounds really promising. I'd like to order 4 watches - 2 watches of both dials for both my partner and I.
> 
> And I vote for midnight blue for the second dial!
> 
> Please put a red jewel on the second hand as well. I think that'll be a great homage to the VCM look.


Thank you for the support! You are on the list.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

demag said:


> Any pictures, drawings, rough sketches, computer images yet? Or still only ideas?


We have pencil drawings which are being sent back and forth to both Seagull and Beijing, and just received a mockup from Seagull yesterday (bearing in mind last week was Golden Week, one of the two weeks in the whole year that China is on mass holiday). The mockup in my opinion is not yet worthy of showing to the world, and so we have sent it back to the drawing board and will hopefully have the improved design by this week or next.

While my partner and I both work expeditiously as a result of our passion in this project and our commitment to raising the prestige of China Made watches, one must understand that we are bound by the timelines and efficiency of case, dial and movement factories as well as our designers. Still, hang in there, and good things will happen! 

btw, cute avatar!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

demag said:


> No one in their right mind would order a watch that is just an image in one man's head. What have you bought? What does it look like? Where are the pictures, images, prototypes? You can't just buy a.....a......nothing!
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2


Hi demag and others who may be wondering...

We are not yet soliciting for buyers and when the time comes will release this information through the appropriate channels. Of course if anyone wishes to contact me at this time to reserve a spot on the list, they will of course have priority for selecting their serial number in what is a limited run of 100 watches. A WUS forum discount applies to any member here who purchases our watch, and a pre-order discount as well if one wishes to pre-order.

Of course, at this stage, no money is changing hands and as Lim has stated, I would not expect any to! Once the drawings are ready and details are finalised, you all can decide if the watch is worth the price.

In my opinion, as unbiased as it may be, and speaking as a lover of Chinese watches and a collector of VCMs, I sincerely think it will be...


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## demag (Feb 12, 2012)

Monsieurxu thanks for that information.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Dear friends,

To update, we are thinking of producing a sportier model as well. An elegant casual-leisure watch along the lines of the original Genta 70s designs. It will be sporty and casual, but retain the slender lines and elegance that is the sine qua non of our watchhouse.

Tentative specifications -

1. It will have a fairly sporty but elegant dial with date and centre second hand functions (there will be good lume and possibly an Arabic "12" and/or "6" with baton markers). The dial will draw inspiration from an actual VCM watch, possibly even the original WUXING, and will embody both a vintage and ageless character.

2. be accompanied with a handmade galuchat (stingray) strap lined with alligator flank (the round part of the belly, which is amazingly water resistant) with curved ends fitted around the case (strap will be water resistant - I have tested this personally) which will surpass a metal bracelet for looks and comfort.

There won't be any metal bracelet of substantial quality at this price range in any case, and so we have opted to work with our leather artisan friend (Hughes Handcrafted, of which an internet search will yield his blog that has examples of his fine work) who will lavish greater personal attention on these straps, as opposed to a factory-manufactured bracelet made by machines. Each strap will be personally measured to the customer and a single hole (or two) will be punched on the strap.

Stingray skin is an exceptionally difficult material to work with as the pearls are very hardy, but the advantage is that they are essentially invulnerable once made and provide miniaturised armour around the wrist. Normally such straps are extremely expensive when bought after market, or come on high-end watches only, but we will provide this as standard with this watch. Stingray was and is used as scabbard covering for Chinese swords, so this will be another fine homage to Chinese tradition.

(see my post here for an example of a stingray strap in red - https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/what-chinese-watch-you-wearing-today-june-2012-a-700163.html)

3. use the high-grade ST18 ultrathin movement (3.6mm vs 3.05mm for the Royal Oak Anniversary's cal 2121 [the thinnest full-rotor automatic movement in the world with date and center seconds], in fact our watch will be thinner than the standard Royal Oaks)

4. case will be approx. 8.3mm (using the M201 case). In the future we will use a bespoke case of original design. But to not raise the price to an inordinate level for now we have elected to use a high-quality stock case, which we believe is not a compromise at all.

5. be offered in azure and racing green dials with matching coloured galuchat straps (or any other colour, or any skin the customer wishes. After all each strap is individually made and is produced in collaboration with the customer who can specify any preference).

6. In 40 years, this idea will be as ground-breaking as the Royal Oak or Nautilus, and collectors will be clamouring for the original series, especially given the way China's watch industry is heading now. Each piece of this first series will have an additional 首 engraved, which translates into both head or chief as well as first.

Do let me know what you all think!

Cheers,

B


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Description to follow, but for now...

I give you,

the Celadon _Premier
_


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## fatehbajwa (Jun 8, 2011)

monsieurxu said:


> Description to follow, but for now...
> 
> I give you,
> 
> ...


That's beautiful......I want one. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

monsieurxu said:


> Description to follow, but for now...
> 
> I give you,
> 
> ...


I think I'm impressed.

The aesthetic symmetry of Beijing meets Bauhaus. Well done.

And I'm picturing it also with a pressed "Wuyi/51" styled dial pattern...


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## xingfenzhen (Aug 20, 2011)

monsieurxu said:


> Description to follow, but for now...
> 
> I give you,
> 
> ...


Nice, I like the seal script, though 華夏謹製 would go with the font more. Not a fan of the onion crown though, but hard to think of a crown that would go with the case.


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## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

Strictly my two cents (if even that much): I like the dial and hands. The bezel looks a bit thick compared to all the other lines of the watch. The red dot and the writing are fighting for attention a little bit. One thing I don't understand is the image EXIF data: the picture itself was taken in 2009? So is this a composite of the design? Or did the editing (or the firefox exif plugin) just bungle the dates?


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks guys for all the feedback and kind words.

There are some changes that I intend to make to the design -
1. make the textured dial exactly like the vintage Wuyi, with the 梅花 pattern* (still tentative)*
2. change hour and minute hands to lancet style (same as on Sea-Gull tourbillon but in steel instead of blue)
3. make 君 bigger and change to 秀君 and in 草书 (calligraphy) not in 篆书 (seal script)
4. or change brand signature to "Celadon" in cursive
5. remove 中国制造
6. make red jewel a little darker
7. with these changes, we will then do another mockup with a navy blue dial and another with a dark racing green dial
8. will also do a mockup of the back with the only words being "001/100" (100 pieces each dial colour) on top and "MADE IN CHINA WITH PRIDE" below
9. upgrade to the ST18 movement at a 50-70 USD increase to the price.

The bezel and onion crown will not look too large once the other details are made a little bigger and richer. I have several watches with this exact case and crown and can visualise how it will turn out. The red dot will also look darker and more subtle in the metal. The picture above was modified from a stock Sea-Gull picture, hence the date.

"Beijing meets Bauhaus" is a nice moniker!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Friends,

I just received the renders for both the plain and plum blossom dials today.

First, the plain one...








Patterned dial to follow later this week, after I've sufficiently whetted your appetites!


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## CMcG (Aug 20, 2012)

monsieurxu said:


> 1. make the textured dial exactly like the vintage Wuyi, with the 梅花 pattern* (still tentative)*


I'm a big fan of textured dials 



monsieurxu said:


> 3. make 君 bigger and change to 秀君 and in 草书 (calligraphy) not in 篆书 (seal script)
> 4. or change brand signature to "Celadon" in cursive


Changing to 秀君 instead of just 君 helps to clarify your brand identity... with just 君, I was imagining more of a Confucian 君子! Ironically, if this watch is intended for the Mainland Chinese market, you might do better with Celadon... I am not Chinese, but I prefer 秀君 because I like Chinese characters.

I don't think either 草書 or 篆書 are particularly appropriate. 草書 is too hard to read and 篆書 is too old fashioned. In my opinion, 楷書 or maybe 行書 would be better because they will be more legible on the dial and also look better at that size. Cursive script just looks messy when it is that small and seal script only looks good to me when it used in a seal. Actually, if you real want to use 篆書, it could look quite cool if you made it into a chop seal.



monsieurxu said:


> 5. remove 中国制造


Why take out 中国制造 aka "made in China"? I thought part of this endeavour was to show pride in Chinese watchmaking, so shouldn't this be right on the dial, instead of on the back? If you were to put it back, I'd rather it be written in 繁體字 because I think traditional characters look better and are more meaningful.


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## JP23 (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi everyone, 

I've been a long time lurker around the forums, first time poster. Been following this project since inception, just had an idea I though I would share. Instead of deciding whether to have an inscribed case back with a poem, why not inscribe the poem around the walls of the watch the using a cnc machine. It would be more costly for sure, but would allow a sapphire caseback to be used as well as having a beautiful Chinese poem on the watch that can be seen while the wearing the watch. Another option is to use laser etching to draw the poem (will probably be cheaper to do) on the walls of the watch case.


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

Wow, I really love the dial and hands. Not too sure about the lug screws and crown though. 
Especially the crown, this is the reason I did not buy some of the Cheaper seagull dress watches, like the M186. In my opinion it is to big or heavy for this watch. Just like a date at 3 makes a dial unbalanced, this crown draws too much attention away from the perfect dial.

Personally I'd rather have a simple crown like the one on the M198s. Without the date it would have been the perfect SeaGull dresswatch.









But still, I will follow your efforts with great interest :-!

Regards,

Martin


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

CMcG - 

Thanks for the thoughts on the Chinese characters. For someone who is not ethnic Chinese, you certainly know a great deal about the culture!

秀君 was thought up by me - it translates as "most excellent gentleman", which our house hopefully exemplifies. I loved the name so much that I named my beloved dog 秀君 two years ago 

Still, a cursive "Celadon" might win out in the end...

The decision to remove 中国制造 was to make the dial cleaner. I also feel it is somewhat unnecessary as the Chinese elements are clear on the dial. What do members here think? I am open to feedback as always.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

JP23 -

Welcome! Thanks for the idea, both forms of engraving should be possible, but the deep engraving might be cost-prohibitive on this watch. I might offer this on my 18k rose gold line. Currently, I am working with the family-owned artisanal workshop that supplies me hand-fired celadon teaware in Longquan in Jiangsu province to perfect a celadon dial, which will be used in these higher-end gold pieces. The logistics are immense though!

Laser-engraving might be possible on the steel Premier though. Anyone else keen on this?


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Martin - 

Thank you for the kind words! You will be glad to know that we have decided to use the same case and crown on the M198s as we will be using the ST18 movement, and so needed an ultrathin case that would best take advantage of this. 

The M198 case is 8.9mm and is the only ST18 case with a sapphire caseback (the M201 has a solid back). The ST18 is extraordinary as it is very close to being the thinnest full-rotor auto movement ever made (the AP 2121 at 3.05mm is the thinnest, versus the ST18 at 3.6mm, but the retail price on that is 22,500 USD). 

Our ST18 equipped Celadon Premier will be the least expensive watch on the market with the ST18 movement as well, certainly one of the few if not the only one easily available outside China.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Ok guys, enough teasing...

1958








2012








I hope we have done a good job in distilling the simple lines and elegance of the original Wuyi without producing an actual re-issue as that was not our intention. Rather, we wish to design a contemporary Chinese watch, proud of its heritage but ready for the new century ahead. Just picture the above with the M198 case and crown for now, until my next render is ready.


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## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

So the case will look like this, and be very thin?







Nice.

Regarding the 'Made in China' label on the dial: I think the watch is ok without. If I understand it correctly, these labels were originally enforced as a means of discrimination (against cheap German metalware imports to England), so historically it's kind of the opposite of 'proudly made in X'.

But if people think this is a must, maybe there is a way to arrange the 'Made in China' symbols along the bottom edge? The dial definitely does look cleaner without it right smack in the middle.
Small print, like on this Sea-Gull, could work. Legibility is not super-important, I think.


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## JP23 (Oct 31, 2012)

Thanks for the warm welcome monsieurxu. I too have the same thoughts and feelings like you about the Chinese manufacturing industry, that the Chinese were once responsible for creating functional pieces of art in the past, where their produced goods were once the envy of the globe (Chinese porcelain, carved works of ivory), now their efforts are wasted on copies of mass-produced foreign designs (yes I know I'm generalizing, but R&D is not a recognized strength of the Chinese manufacturing industry where replicas and fakes hinder its reputation). It is nice to see Seagull watches rise in value over the past few years due to awareness spread by VCM and non-VCM enthusiasts and collectors, and hopefully, the watches coming out of this collaboration and watchhouse would amount to something of significant proportions (maybe one day with equal brandpower and awareness such as Omega). I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labour.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

monsieurxu said:


> The decision to remove 中国制造 was to make the dial cleaner. I also feel it is somewhat unnecessary as the Chinese elements are clear on the dial. What do members here think? I am open to feedback as always.


Well, there are a number of decidedly non-Chinese manufacturers that are mining the Chinese motifs for inspiration and using Chinese characters on the dial, so I like the idea of including 中国制造, but I also think it would be suitable to place 中国 and 制造 in the smallest legible print on either side of the six index. I don't think that would crowd the dial at all.

And I'd still keep the Chinese characters below the 12 rather than script.



CMcG said:


> Ironically, if this watch is intended for the Mainland Chinese market, you might do better with Celadon... I am not Chinese, but I prefer 秀君 because I like Chinese characters.


I agree with both parts of this. My thinking is that just as the Chinese market appears to prefer script these days, and primarily for its cache of "western-ness", my reason for wishing the use of Chinese characters is to openly show my very western respect and welcome for the "eastern-ness". I think I'm putting this clumsily, but I trust everyone understands my point.

Similalry, I would also hope some day to see Swiss watches labelled in Swiss, and German in German, and Korean in Korean, for other examples. Example: I would also have preferred my Moranbong to have had just Korean characters.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

LCheapo said:


> Regarding the 'Made in China' label on the dial: I think the watch is ok without. If I understand it correctly, these labels were originally enforced as a means of discrimination (against cheap German metalware imports to England), so historically it's kind of the opposite of 'proudly made in X'.


The same was true of 'Swiss made' originally, back in the mid 19th century when Swiss watches were generally inferior to British or American watches. What the Swiss did was turn that label into a point of pride, to such an extent that by the 1950s, British jewellers found it easier to sell low-grade Sheffield 'Swiss' watches than the superior locally-made Smiths watches.

To my mind, 'Made in China' marked on the dial serves the same purpose as using an elegant and authentic Chinese script for the brand. Both serve to express pride in its origins.

Or to look at it from the other direction, the final mock-ups for the 2012 CMWF project were posted over on the Affordables forum. A chap in Texas commented that Chinese text made the watch look 'cheap'. I think it is clear that for somebody holding that opinion, Chinese text, 'Made in China' marks or in fact _any_ identification with the Chinese nation would be considered negatively. Since we are discussing a brand whose identity is firmly grounded in China, I think it must simply be accepted that at this time such a watch is not for everybody and there is no point trying to make it so.


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## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

Chascomm said:


> Since we are discussing a brand whose identity is firmly grounded in China, I think it must simply be accepted that at this time such a watch is not for everybody and there is no point trying to make it so.


 A misunderstanding: I'm not suggesting to hide the fact that the watch is made in China. I'm suggesting to not have that statement ('Made in China') as a big hulking sign in the middle of the dial, where it unnecessarily restricts the design. 
I like Albertatimes suggestion


Albertatime said:


> to place 中国 and 制造 in the smallest legible print on either side of the six index.


And that remark from Texas was very funny; you can't make this stufff up...


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

monsieurxu said:


> Martin -
> 
> Thank you for the kind words! You will be glad to know that we have decided to use the same case and crown on the M198s as we will be using the ST18 movement, and so needed an ultrathin case that would best take advantage of this.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply. Now I'm really interested. If you can keep the price in the M198 region, I certainly would like to own one. :-!
And manufacturing times of 6 months are no problem to me, it gives me some time to save up money after spending so much on all the forum watches ;-)

Regards,

Martin


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

CMcG said:


> Ironically, if this watch is intended for the Mainland Chinese market, you might do better with Celadon...


... and just this morning I received an email from a new friend in China who is new to VCM collecting.

Regarding this point, he noted that he was quite disappointed when he went on a visit to the Guangzhou factory that they had changed their name to what he termed an English sounding name: Dixmont...so maybe things are changing slowly :-!


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## JP23 (Oct 31, 2012)

Any update on the watch?


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

LCheapo -

Yep, it will be using the same case and crown (and movement) as the M198s. I'm not sure if the one in your picture is of the same case but it looks similar.



LCheapo said:


> So the case will look like this, and be very thin?
> View attachment 864108
> 
> Nice.
> ...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

JP23 -

Thank you for the kind words and encouragement, it is greatly appreciated as always. We are Davids in this world of Goliaths (but we all know how that story ended  ), but with hard work and determination we will bring our vision to fruition.

You are absolutely right, and indeed one of our stated aims in our endeavour is to raise the prestige of Chinese watchmaking and manufacturing as a whole. We envisage a complete range of products in the future in addition to watches - pens, clothing, artisanally handmade umbrellas etc, all produced with love and dedication in China.

My personal background is in the area of high-grade bespoke clothing and cloth (I was educated in the law but refused to sell my soul!), and so I have some experience in how to go about sourcing these products and how to tie these together into a unified aesthetic vision. One of my great passions is locating well-made and interesting artisanal arts in China, and I've always thought that these would be very well-received abroad if only they were marketed and packaged better, and made more easily available to consumers overseas. Having both a British education and a Chinese background has allowed me to have a pretty multi-faceted worldview, so I hope that I can appreciate cultural mentalities and expectations from both East and West.

People forget that in the 19th century it was the European centres of porcelain (Meissen, Limoges, Worcester etc) that copied China's various porcelain traditions (Jingdezhen, Dehua, Longquan celadon etc), among other things. In fact our next project will be the incorporation of actual celadon dials in our higher-end 18k rose gold watches, which will be logistically unfathomable and extraordinarily rare. To my mind only 2 or 3 watches made in recent memory have had porcelain dials, and all of these pale in comparison to true handmade celadon (speaking as an ardent tea lover).



JP23 said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome monsieurxu. I too have the same thoughts and feelings like you about the Chinese manufacturing industry, that the Chinese were once responsible for creating functional pieces of art in the past, where their produced goods were once the envy of the globe (Chinese porcelain, carved works of ivory), now their efforts are wasted on copies of mass-produced foreign designs (yes I know I'm generalizing, but R&D is not a recognized strength of the Chinese manufacturing industry where replicas and fakes hinder its reputation). It is nice to see Seagull watches rise in value over the past few years due to awareness spread by VCM and non-VCM enthusiasts and collectors, and hopefully, the watches coming out of this collaboration and watchhouse would amount to something of significant proportions (maybe one day with equal brandpower and awareness such as Omega). I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labour.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks Ron! Indeed it is quite interesting that languages and native culture are usually seen as less interesting in their land of origin. As someone who has travelled a fair bit and lived in a few countries, I can attest to this. But speaking as an Overseas Chinese, I think I would prefer Chinese characters on the dial of my watch, if it were made in China (not too sure about the Swiss watches with Chinese themes or characters).



AlbertaTime said:


> Well, there are a number of decidedly non-Chinese manufacturers that are mining the Chinese motifs for inspiration and using Chinese characters on the dial, so I like the idea of including 中国制造, but I also think it would be suitable to place 中国 and 制造 in the smallest legible print on either side of the six index. I don't think that would crowd the dial at all.
> 
> And I'd still keep the Chinese characters below the 12 rather than script.
> 
> ...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words!

The price will not only be in the M198 region, it will in fact be lower (for WUS members!). We hope to get the watches done within 3-4 months, but I can age one piece in my cellar just for you. 

We will be making a trip in Dec or Jan to both Sea-Gull in Tianjin and Beijing Factory in Beijing, where we will document in photographs and videos the process of making watches (including grande complications!) and the whole milleu generally. I think people these days like to know how and where their watches are produced, and see the actual artisan who assembles the watches and movements. Well, we will provide this!



Martin_B said:


> Thank you for your reply. Now I'm really interested. If you can keep the price in the M198 region, I certainly would like to own one. :-!
> And manufacturing times of 6 months are no problem to me, it gives me some time to save up money after spending so much on all the forum watches ;-)
> 
> Regards,
> ...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Sorry for the delay! I just received the latest render today, and will be sending it out to those on my pre-order list first. In a few days' time, I will post it right here.

Spoiler - it looks _tres tres bien_!



JP23 said:


> Any update on the watch?


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## CMcG (Aug 20, 2012)

monsieurxu, you might want to check out this thread on VCM logos, if you haven't seen it already:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/some-interesting-vcm-logos-formed-letters-772184.html


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks for that CMcG,

That thread will provide great food for thought as we are in fact in the midst of coming up with a logo befitting the watch's traditional Chinese design. Still on the fence with either Chinese character or characters, and English cursive. A pictorial logo using Chinese characters might be an option!



CMcG said:


> monsieurxu, you might want to check out this thread on VCM logos, if you haven't seen it already:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/some-interesting-vcm-logos-formed-letters-772184.html


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## xingfenzhen (Aug 20, 2011)

monsieurxu said:


> People forget that in the 19th century it was the European centres of porcelain (Meissen, Limoges, Worcester etc) that copied China's various porcelain traditions (Jingdezhen, Dehua, Longquan celadon etc), among other things. In fact our next project will be the incorporation of actual celadon dials in our higher-end 18k rose gold watches, which will be logistically unfathomable and extraordinarily rare. To my mind only 2 or 3 watches made in recent memory have had porcelain dials, and all of these pale in comparison to true handmade celadon (speaking as an ardent tea lover).


If celadon is used, it's would good if you could replicate the look and feel of imperial kiln porcelain. I think it has very different feel from the European type and they're quite mesmerizing staring at them in museums... Here is from my recent trip to Palace Museum and National in Beijing. The bright one is actually Song era imperial kiln piece, the two darker one are Qianglong Era replica of Song Pieces.























This is actually my favorite, though it's not celadon








Also from the trip, a piece of real Chinese horology, sun dial from West Zhou era (1046-771 BCE). I think if stylized properly, this look would make a awesome logo.


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

monsieurxu said:


> Thanks for the kind words!
> 
> The price will not only be in the M198 region, it will in fact be lower (for WUS members!). We hope to get the watches done within 3-4 months, but I can age one piece in my cellar just for you.
> 
> We will be making a trip in Dec or Jan to both Sea-Gull in Tianjin and Beijing Factory in Beijing, where we will document in photographs and videos the process of making watches (including grande complications!) and the whole milleu generally. I think people these days like to know how and where their watches are produced, and see the actual artisan who assembles the watches and movements. Well, we will provide this!


Thanks for your offer, I hope it will not be needed. Now knowing the approximate price, I will reserve budget for the WuS 2012 and 2013 models, and of course this one. :-!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks for the photos - that's our intention exactly. Within the subset of celadon there is an even more exquisite genre known as Ru Yao or "Ru kiln" which was established as the imperial kiln during the Song dynasty a thousand years ago. Only 72 pieces of true Ru kiln pieces remain in the world and are mostly in the hands of museums and private collectors.

This type of celadon is characterised by its thickness and milky glaze. I do know personally some artisans who specialise in making this sort of porcelain, and will be engaging them for our watch dials. While the modern reproductions are claimed by historians to not be exactly the same as the historical pieces (since the formula was lost when the Song empire fell to the Mongols), they are nonetheless exquisite and a sight to behold, especially on a watch dial encased in rose gold.

Another possibility is using Yixing clay or Zisha, which if any of you are tea drinkers, will recognise immediately. That is another beautiful Chinese handicraft which we may call upon for our watches.



xingfenzhen said:


> If celadon is used, it's would good if you could replicate the look and feel of imperial kiln porcelain. I think it has very different feel from the European type and they're quite mesmerizing staring at them in museums... Here is from my recent trip to Palace Museum and National in Beijing. The bright one is actually Song era imperial kiln piece, the two darker one are Qianglong Era replica of Song Pieces.
> 
> View attachment 871874
> 
> ...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Martin_B said:


> Thanks for your offer, I hope it will not be needed. Now knowing the approximate price, I will reserve budget for the WuS 2012 and 2013 models, and of course this one. :-!


Dank je wel!

(I hope I got that correct!)


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Here we go!









Some points to note -

the "Celadon" signature here is just a placeholder and the actual one will be "Celadon" signed in my own handwriting and printed on the dial. How's that for the designer personally signing off on his creation - an actual brand signature.

The alternative would be a Chinese character or characters, also in my own calligraphy.

Note also the change to lancet hands, the same ones found on the Sea-Gull tourbillons but done in steel instead of blued. The hour hand is not very visible here but this is just a picture after all.

The next render will be posted late next week.

As usual, all feedback is welcome and appreciated.

Bon weekend to all!


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## CMcG (Aug 20, 2012)

monsieurxu said:


> the "Celadon" signature here is just a placeholder and the actual one will be "Celadon" signed in my own handwriting and printed on the dial. How's that for the designer personally signing off on his creation - an actual brand signature.
> 
> The alternative would be a Chinese character or characters, also in my own calligraphy.
> 
> Note also the change to lancet hands, the same ones found on the Sea-Gull tourbillons but done in steel instead of blued. The hour hand is not very visible here but this is just a picture after all.


It's coming along nicely |>

I love the dial, the case, and the lugs. The new lancet hands work better with the textured dial because they are more visible.

For a Chinese (and proud!) watch, the logo really should be in Chinese characters.

You had a different crown on one of the other renders that was a bit more 'onion' shaped and I think it would help balance the textured dial. This crown looks more like a VCM, but is also a bit plain.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

monsieurxu said:


> The alternative would be a Chinese character or characters, also in my own calligraphy.


Yes.


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## xingfenzhen (Aug 20, 2011)

monsieurxu said:


> The alternative would be a Chinese character or characters, also in my own calligraphy.


definitely Chinese character, especially the dial is very similar to classic shanghai or zhongshan


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## tarmo (Jul 30, 2012)

hello,
have been following this project with interest and i really like where it is evolving. i like last mock up, really nice. i`d leave it as it is, i like it more with "celadon" than with chinese characters. everyone (almost) with international ambiotion uses english. this watch is already clearly paying tribute to VCM-s, you don`t have to "paint it red", so to speak. 
you can count me in on this one.

greetings,
tarmo


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## christaddict (Oct 1, 2012)

Wow it looks really really nice. Great job!!

Count me in when it is time to order.


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## chirs1211 (Sep 29, 2009)

I maybe in on this too, it's looking good, well done all

Chris


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## timeshifter (Jul 30, 2011)

I maybe in on this too.
Let me know when it's time to order.


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

xingfenzhen said:


> Also from the trip, a piece of real Chinese horology, sun dial from West Zhou era (1046-771 BCE). I think if stylized properly, this look would make a awesome logo.
> View attachment 871896


That would make for some amazing rotor art for an automatic.

Great photo, xingfenzhen!


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## Thrax (Oct 6, 2012)

What kind of price can we expect on a watch like this? Apologies if I missed it in this big ol' thread.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Apologies for the late replies everybody, but I've been down with the flu the past week and am still recovering. Will get back to all questions and private messages by middle or late next week. Until then rest assured that other parts of our operation are moving along - the logo is being designed and finalised, the crown signature is being decided, and even the box has been selected!


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## akatsuki (Jul 20, 2009)

I am posting because I am definitely in - actually very interested in the RG line. Would have liked a thinner bezel admittedly.


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## raging.dragon (Nov 6, 2012)

CMcG said:


> I'm a big fan of textured dials
> 
> Changing to 秀君 instead of just 君 helps to clarify your brand identity... with just 君, I was imagining more of a Confucian 君子! Ironically, if this watch is intended for the Mainland Chinese market, you might do better with Celadon... I am not Chinese, but I prefer 秀君 because I like Chinese characters.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of making the manufacturer logo into a small chop seal. Also chops seals traditionally use red (vermillion) paste, and this would help tie the second hands red dot into the rest of the design.


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## raging.dragon (Nov 6, 2012)

A Chinese porcelain dial would be nice, though a solid gold case will put it above my budget. Engraving the poem on the sides of the case is a good idea. Would it be possible to engrave the poem on the saphire case back?

China has centuries (millenia?) old traditions of art and craftsmanship. These were mostly suppressed during the communist era but seem to starting a slow resurgence. At different points in the past "Made in Germany", "Made in Japan" and "Made in Korea" all meant cheap junk, yet today these are either prestigious marks of quality or well on their way to becoming such. I expect that the same will eventually be true for "Made in China".


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## hillbc (Oct 9, 2007)

Just to double check that I am following the process correctly--are both the plain and textured dials still being planned? I really liked the plain dial with Chinese characters, and would be excited to see a rendering of the plain dial with the new case, crown, and hands (assuming those carry over).


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you all for your posts and patience. I'm feeling much better now after being down with the flu for a week. Will reply to all posts here and private messages/emails by Thurs or Fri.

Lots of good news too to share with all of you as well! Patience, patience...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Hello all and apologies for being away for so long!

We will likely be using the M198 case as it has a sapphire display caseback to show the gorgeous movement. I agree that the lancet hands are a nice touch and serve to differentiate the seconds hand as well.

I think the onion crown would be too large on the M198 case though. It would also not jive with the elegant dress watch aesthetic we are shooting for. Possibly we could use it in our sporty-casual model, the Celadon Azure.



CMcG said:


> It's coming along nicely |>
> 
> I love the dial, the case, and the lugs. The new lancet hands work better with the textured dial because they are more visible.
> 
> ...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Kiitos (Thank you) tarmo!

We might use "Celadon" or an hybrid of Western and Chinese symbols - ie a stylised Chinese character as seen in the VCMs that Soviet posted with stylised logos. I think it is a great precedent and one that showcases the genius of our predecessors in design.



tarmo said:


> hello,
> have been following this project with interest and i really like where it is evolving. i like last mock up, really nice. i`d leave it as it is, i like it more with "celadon" than with chinese characters. everyone (almost) with international ambiotion uses english. this watch is already clearly paying tribute to VCM-s, you don`t have to "paint it red", so to speak.
> you can count me in on this one.
> 
> ...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you Christaddict and I now have you down for one on my list.



christaddict said:


> Wow it looks really really nice. Great job!!
> 
> Count me in when it is time to order.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you Chris, I will reserve you a spot for now.



chirs1211 said:


> I maybe in on this too, it's looking good, well done all
> 
> Chris


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you timeshifter, likewise I have you down on my list.



timeshifter said:


> I maybe in on this too.
> Let me know when it's time to order.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Hi Thrax,

You can expect a lower price than the M198 when it was still available. It will cost more to outsiders but for our WUS family, only VVIP treatment is to be accorded 



Thrax said:


> What kind of price can we expect on a watch like this? Apologies if I missed it in this big ol' thread.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you Akatsuki,

Nice to see you over from SF. We had our origins in high-end bespoke cloths and so we try to apply a sartorially-guided perspective to our watch designs, as opposed to being a bit too idiot savant.

I have you down on my list. The new case with the M198 case will have a much thinner bezel, one that is refined and highly-polished.

For the rose gold, please see my post below.



akatsuki said:


> I am posting because I am definitely in - actually very interested in the RG line. Would have liked a thinner bezel admittedly.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

I think the only engraving possible on the back would be through laser, and that would look a little cheap.

On the case sides would be a better option, but might make the watch overly fussy.

Thank you for your kind words and knowledge regarding Chinese traditions of art and craftsmanship. Our wish is to pay homage to our ancestral traditions - porcelain work, enamelling, cultural motifs and the comparatively recent one of watchmaking. With the support of all our WUS family here, we will make it!



raging.dragon said:


> A Chinese porcelain dial would be nice, though a solid gold case will put it above my budget. Engraving the poem on the sides of the case is a good idea. Would it be possible to engrave the poem on the saphire case back?
> 
> China has centuries (millenia?) old traditions of art and craftsmanship. These were mostly suppressed during the communist era but seem to starting a slow resurgence. At different points in the past "Made in Germany", "Made in Japan" and "Made in Korea" all meant cheap junk, yet today these are either prestigious marks of quality or well on their way to becoming such. I expect that the same will eventually be true for "Made in China".


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Hi Hillbc,

Nothing is set in stone for the moment, but we will likely do 100 pieces of the textured dial in two colours each, in steel with the ST18 movement. The deployant will be included and the option to upgrade to a top-quality, world-class handstitched strap done by our leather artisan friend will be offered. This will be bespoke and measured accordingly, with only one hole on the strap for the wearer's wrist.

Another new development is that we may possibly do only 100 of the steel watches in total, either with one or two dial editions. We may then simultaneously move forward production of the 18k Rose Gold watch, using the case shown below. This latter one will be limited to 10 pieces worldwide and will come with Sea-Gull's impressive mahogany box and the handstitched bespoke strap mentioned above with compliments. Though we do not aim to compete in price, but rather in quality, design and service, this watch will initially carry a price lower than that of other gold watches on the market. It will have the same plum blossom textured dial and red jewel.











hillbc said:


> Just to double check that I am following the process correctly--are both the plain and textured dials still being planned? I really liked the plain dial with Chinese characters, and would be excited to see a rendering of the plain dial with the new case, crown, and hands (assuming those carry over).


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

And finally...

Normally we send out the latest renders and new information to those on our pre-order list first, before waiting for 2 or 3 days to post the same on this thread. But because of the long delay last week, I shall not keep you in suspense any longer.

It is my great honour and pride to present...

The Celadon Premier...









Disregard the logo for now as it is still being refined. But the other details are pretty much finalised and will reflect the actual watch that will go into production.


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## arktika1148 (Nov 21, 2010)

Gorgeous......Stunning.....

.....(hushed voice) how much again....don't neeeed anymore watches


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## Benay148 (Nov 23, 2012)

That is amazing, would love to know the price and if it's in my range, I would love one, if only 100 are being made will they be numbered?


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## shiraz (Jun 15, 2011)

i am interested in having one of these watches. i like the unusual dial pattern.

my only comment; silver hands on a silver dial will be difficult to see, particularly if you need glasses.


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## 13143268 (Jun 8, 2012)

Beautiful design. Would love to get one if the price is within my budget.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

monsieurxu said:


> The Celadon Premier...
> 
> View attachment 884825
> 
> ...


The dial is wonderful and I think the case is perfect.


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## JP23 (Oct 31, 2012)

Very nice work monsieurxu! I am looking forward to what the final logo will be on the dial and what the pricing options are. Keep up the good work!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Dear WUS family,

Thank you all for all your kind words! All your remarks and comments have been greatly appreciated.

In order to put all the relevant details together succinctly, we have put together a provisional tumblr blog in advance of our professional website. Please look for maisonceladon under tumblr, and you will find all you will need to know. Should there be any further questions, you are welcome to get in touch with me. Likewise, if you have any problems finding the blog.

Cheers,

Ben


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Dear Benay148 - the edition will indeed be numbered as such :

001-100/100 A

The "A" denotes that this is the first series of the PREMIER. For every series in future, we will put a corresponding alphabet. After 26 series, we will switch to a different numbering system. We are looking forward in time to maybe 50 years from now, when our watch house (with your immeasurable support) will be a grand name, and the A series by then will be most collectible and treasured!

*

Dear shiraz, thank you. As far as we know, there is no modern watch with such a unique dial pattern. The lancet hands will be much more visible in real life. I examined my personal M198 the other day and even with its much thinner hands, the hands are still easily visible.


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## akatsuki (Jul 20, 2009)

I would probably prefer blued hands personally, but the all silver is nice.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Just a quick word to mention that the blog has been updated with further information.


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## akatsuki (Jul 20, 2009)

Looks really quite nice - definitely very interested to see what comes out of this.


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## aron (Feb 26, 2009)

I like the idea of going with the ST18! There are lines which look like minute markers (but don't appear to be) on the dial; is this to be printed on the dial or is part of the relief formed as part of the pressed dial? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


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## JP23 (Oct 31, 2012)

Don't know if it's me, but I can't find the maisonceladon blog on tumblr, not even through Google. Is anyone having the same problems?


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## Thrax (Oct 6, 2012)

blogname.tumblr.com


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## JP23 (Oct 31, 2012)

It works, thanks Thrax!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you Akatsuki and Aron for the kind words once again!

I just heard back from Tianjin and we will be posting a new entry on the blog about the way forward. Basically we will likely have the finished watches within the next 4 months.

Dear Aron - I considered reducing the number of lines to make them function as minute markers but thought it would be too busy. They are part of the relief indeed, and you can see how it will look like based on the picture of the vintage Wuyi. 

I'm glad that so many of you support going with the ST18! From the start, the basis of our endeavour has been to raise the prestige (and to push Sea-Gull's and Beijing's game further) of Chinese watchmaking by using the very best possible materials and workmanship, while still keeping prices at a rational level. Though the price was raised by 70 USD, the added value of the much better finished and polished case and superior built and decorated movement is worth several hundred USD alone. 

Our CELADON PREMIER will be a worthy standard bearer of Chinese watchmaking prowess for the years and decades to come. We are watching history in the making as China sees her first boutique watch house come to fruition!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you Thrax for clarifying that up on our behalf. I saw JP23's question when I woke up but you had already answered it. 

Should anybody else have any other queries about the watches or problems with finding the site, please do let me know.

Cheers,

Ben


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## hillbc (Oct 9, 2007)

monsieurxu said:


> Hi Hillbc,
> 
> Nothing is set in stone for the moment, but we will likely do 100 pieces of the textured dial in two colours each, in steel with the ST18 movement. The deployant will be included and the option to upgrade to a top-quality, world-class handstitched strap done by our leather artisan friend will be offered. This will be bespoke and measured accordingly, with only one hole on the strap for the wearer's wrist.
> 
> Another new development is that we may possibly do only 100 of the steel watches in total, either with one or two dial editions. We may then simultaneously move forward production of the 18k Rose Gold watch, using the case shown below.


Edit: Never mind, found all the answers to my questions on the tumblr blog!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

No worries hillbc, PM just sent.



hillbc said:


> Edit: Never mind, found all the answers to my questions on the tumblr blog!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Blog has just been updated.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Dear friends,

Just a quick word to mention that we will be away on a supplier visit till the 12th of Dec, so please bear with us if any emails or messages are not answered till then!

Cheers,

Ben


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Dear WUS Family,

We have just returned from overseas after a week and will reply to all messages and emails in the next few days.

The tumblr blog (maisonceladon) has been updated with the latest renders of the PREMIER in steel and the PREMIER ROYAL in 18k Rose Gold.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Dear Friends,

First of all, thank you to all of you for all the kind wishes and messages in the last few days. We think the latest design is gorgeous as well!

We'd like to mention that we will be doing a photo and video tour of both Beijing Watch in Changping village and Sea-Gull in Tianjin, so if there are any special requests to photograph specific watches or processes at either factory, or any questions you would like to ask their respective heads, please let us know.

We will be finalising the design in person with the Head of Production at the factory when we go there, so all plans are on schedule and the Celadon PREMIER will soon be a reality.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Stay tuned for an EPIC update in 2 weeks!

Happy 2013 and Year of the Snake to all...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Dear WUS friends,

As promised, here are the photos from our recent trip to Beijing & Tianjin. Firstly the legalese - all photos below are the sole property of me, monsieurxu, and anyone who wishes to use these photos should seek my permission beforehand. These photos represent only about half of all taken and have been substantially downsized for efficient web delivery and are meant merely as a general overview of the places visited. Anyone desiring more detailed or higher-resolution photos or shots from a different angle can contact me directly for them.

And now, on to the festivities...

*

Our story begins in Beijing, capital for six centuries of the most populous nation on the globe and one of the world's great ancient cultures. Beijing, or Northern Capital in Chinese, is an ancient city, a citadel exuding both the faded majesty and trappings of Imperial China as well as brimming with the modernity and confidence of New China.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)




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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Some of Beijing's oldest timekeepers... sundial inside the imperial palace and the hall of clocks & watches















The drum (first picture) & bell (second picture) towers of old Beijing - these towers used to dominate the Beijing skyline during the Imperial era, and were the basis of timekeeping in the capital from the Yuan dynasty until 1924.















And here is another _grande dame_...


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Next post...


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## cetaphil (Jan 20, 2013)

Beautiful watches! I have PMed you with my interest and inquiries.


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

Content deleted by AlbertaTime:

I recall writing in this post: https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/beijing-watch-information-773028-post5867181.html#post5867181...



> I will have very limited tolerance for anyone *(including from monsieurxu or Mr. Jun Liao)* who posts any further conjecture or suppositions regarding poor honesty or poor motives on the part of _either_ of these parties without __firm__ evidence to support such a conclusion. *If any such firm evidence is found, it should be brought to moderators before posting.*
> 
> *4) *Anyone is still perfectly free to discuss customer service or seller attitude but I _strongly_ caution anyone against attacking either (or, generally,_ any_) party's general character. Be specific about reasoning for _any_ complaint.
> 
> The forum rule stating that "Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the moderators will not be tolerated," still holds -- _and will be enforced_.


*I meant it.*


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