# K.Serkisoff & Co Ottoman Pocket Watch



## ikarus2007 (Sep 19, 2008)

Hi
I am a collector of Ottoman pocket watches. I recently purchased a K.Serkisoff & Co Constantinople Pocket watch. It has a Billodes mechanism inside. I have been trying to date or approx. date of this watch was made. Although I have been searching for a web site for the serial numbers of this kind of pocket watches. I could not find a trace:-(. All I know the Company Zenith had started watch business as Billodes.

If anybody who is familliar with Serkisoff watches could help me I would be very Happy:thanks.
The silver case and the dust cover of the pocket watch has the following numbers. 2074296 - 1480

Thank you very much


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## Ray MacDonald (Apr 30, 2005)

Just looking at the style of movement I would guess it's from around 1890.
Hartmut Richter is our Zenith expert and he may know more.
Thanks for posting.


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## ikarus2007 (Sep 19, 2008)

Thank you very much for your reply. My guess was more 1900's. Your guess is much better then mine. you are right it should be around 1890. How can Get in touch with Hartmut Richter? I would like to get his opinion about the my watch.


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## Ray MacDonald (Apr 30, 2005)

He'll come by here one of these days and comment. Don't worry.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

What a fascinating watch! I don't recall ever seeing an Ottoman watch in a hunter case (then again it is the railway watches that always attract the collectors, isn't it?)

Please keep us updated in your collecting journey.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I have replied at length to your (identical) thread on the Zenith forum. Many thanks for posting.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=1312305#poststop

Hartmut Richter


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## RON in PA (Sep 11, 2007)

Just out of curiosity i did a Yahoo search on Biilodes and get a far number of hits. As Ikarus stated, the watch is a Zenith and seems to have been made in the 1870-1890 era.

If someone has a copy of Pritchard's book on Swiss watches more might be found. I won't be in the NAWCC Library until nexr Thursday and if nobody has any more details I'll look up Billodes and Zenith.


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## Ray MacDonald (Apr 30, 2005)

Thanks for your help in research, Ron.
I had a closer look at the case marks and I think I see some English hallmarking there. If I'm correct they would date the case to 1895.


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## ikarus2007 (Sep 19, 2008)

Thank you very much. I am facinated with it too. I am going to attach some photos of my favorite pocket watch which is again a Serkisoff. If anybody has more info regarding that watch I would love to learn.
Thank you all for your interest.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

ikarus2007 said:


> Thank you very much. I am facinated with it too. I am going to attach some photos of my favorite pocket watch which is again a Serkisoff. If anybody has more info regarding that watch I would love to learn.
> Thank you all for your interest.


As you are the only Serkisoff enthusiast that I have ever encountered, I wonder if you could tell me what the connection was between Serkisoff and the Turkish National Railways? I've seen Serkisoff railway watches (and of course the Molnija 'Serkisoff' railway replica) so I was wondering if K. Serkisoff & Co were exclusive suppliers to the railways or just one of many?


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## ikarus2007 (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes K.Serkisoff & co were exclusive suppliers for the Turkish National Railways since 1880. The Ottoman Empire had signed an agreement with K.Serkisoff & Co in 1880. Since then when one gets retired from the railways it is a tradition to give the person a Serkisoff railway watch as a present. They stopped this tradition few years ago. This year Turkish National Railways celebrating their 150th anniversary. They ordered 1100 Serkisof watches for their staff.


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## ikarus2007 (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Hi...I did a little bit more of research. They ordered the watches from China! They do not make them in Russia anymore. I am enclosing the photos of the Serkisoff watch for the Turkish National Railway. Brand new one costs about $ 42.-

http://www.gittigidiyor.com/main/urun.php?id=11715272


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Great thread! many thanks for the postings.


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## ikarus2007 (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Thank you very much for your interest.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*



ikarus2007 said:


> Hi...I did a little bit more of research. They ordered the watches from China! They do not make them in Russia anymore. I am enclosing the photos of the Serkisoff watch for the Turkish National Railway. Brand new one costs about $ 42.-
> 
> http://www.gittigidiyor.com/main/urun.php?id=11715272


I much prefer the Molnija version :-(

Centre and subsidiary seconds together on the same dial is ridiculous!


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## can't find the time (Sep 25, 2008)

I have a watch that is supposed to be Turkish that I have no idea what it realy is, a watchmaker told me the case was Turkish but the movement was Swiss possibly Zenith.
Who then is BL? Check the photo's out it is quite a mystery.


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## Ray MacDonald (Apr 30, 2005)

The movement is Swiss, ca. 1900. I haven't seen the BL logo before, but Zenith was called Billodes before it was Zenith. Maybe other Members have seen the logo and could comment.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Ray MacDonald said:


> The movement is Swiss, ca. 1900. I haven't seen the BL logo before, but Zenith was called Billodes before it was Zenith. Maybe other Members have seen the logo and could comment.


The movement is most certainly not by Zenith, but it is likely to be Swiss. The closest match I can find offhand is something by Unitas, e.g. Cal. 83:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?00&ranfft&0&2uswk&Unitas_83

But there were similar movements made by Cortebert and by Junghans, the latter being German so the movement does not have to be Swiss. A maker's mark under the balance wheel would help clear things up but often, these hide dial-side on those things.

Hartmut Richter


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## ikarus2007 (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't see any writing in Turkish on the case of the watch. Most of the vintage pocket watches have the the watch maker's name in it. I don't see anything written in Ottoman language or Turkish language. I am going to do a little research on it.


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## Ricehead (May 1, 2008)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*



ikarus2007 said:


> Hi...I did a little bit more of research. They ordered the watches from China! They do not make them in Russia anymore. I am enclosing the photos of the Serkisoff watch for the Turkish National Railway. Brand new one costs about $ 42.-
> 
> http://www.gittigidiyor.com/main/urun.php?id=11715272


Hello gents-

Is it me, or have they pilfered the "Indianapolis Speedway Logo", minus the flags.


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## can't find the time (Sep 25, 2008)

There is no Turkish script but the scroll work around the case is what everyone quotes as "middle eastern" (or celtic), the case is silver and hallmarked with a swan, the stamp is incredibly small, see photo's- at top is HF in shield, then H apple shape then F in shield then just above the case number is the swan- that is the order on the inside case, outside case has swan in middle. No numbers on movement but strange stamp on inside case that looks like clock face with Turkish hour markers- this has been added after production to testify to something.
Notice it has 24hr scale and is a chronometer?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*



Ricehead said:


> Hello gents-
> 
> Is it me, or have they pilfered the "Indianapolis Speedway Logo", minus the flags.


It's just you. The Turkish national railways pre-dates the Indianapolis speedway.


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## RON in PA (Sep 11, 2007)

I was able to access Pritchard'a book, Swiss Timepiece Makers 1775-1975.

In the Zenith section both Billodes and Serkisof were mentioned as Zenith brand or trade names. Billodes was registered in 1884.1885 and 1896.

Les Billodes was the location in the town of Le Locle of the first company workshop.


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## can't find the time (Sep 25, 2008)

I had presumed it was BL but it very well could be LB on the watch, but they finished that name by 1894 and the movement is dated at around 1915. Too the Zenith mediator said it's not a Zenith movement.
Brilliant work though, I need more old watch books.


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## Rowley (Jul 1, 2006)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

The watches I have collected seem to chart a decline in the fortunes of TCDD. Watched from the '40's/50's are from leading Swiss manufacturers, later they are Russian Molnijas (right of photographs) and more recently Chinese with nasty 'staybrite' finish and wrist watch movements (left of photographs) - where even the face is skewed !


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Blimey - even the movement of the chinese effort is no longer a PW movement. Personally, I have always had an aversion to modern pocket watches with small wrist watch movements with central seconds hand and - even worse - a date! A real PW should weigh half a ton, have a socking great big movement and a small second hand at 6:00. Else, I could stick the thing on my wrist in the first place.....

Hartmut Richter


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## Ray MacDonald (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Aack! I agree with you, Hartmut - although it appears you are becoming a dinosaur like me far too soon considering your tender age. ;-)


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## caproader (Aug 7, 2010)

ikarus2007 said:


> Hi
> I am a collector of Ottoman pocket watches. I recently purchased a K.Serkisoff & Co Constantinople Pocket watch. It has a Billodes mechanism inside. I have been trying to date or approx. date of this watch was made. Although I have been searching for a web site for the serial numbers of this kind of pocket watches. I could not find a trace:-(. All I know the Company Zenith had started watch business as Billodes.
> 
> If anybody who is familliar with Serkisoff watches could help me I would be very Happy:thanks.
> ...


I also have a Serkisoff Osmanli/Ottoman pocket watch for which I am trying to collect information. I purchased the watch when I was in the military in Istanbul in 72. The watch is a lever set, key wind. When I get the back case open, I will post my numbers.

Meanwhile, have you found any new information on your watch?

Thanks

John


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Look forward to some pictures.

By the way, re-reading this old thread, I feel I ought to correct a slight misconception here. Zenith was not called "Billodes" before it was called Zenith, it was in fact called (after its founder) "George Favre-Jacot". I those days, a Swiss company was automatically called after and registered under the name of its owner. What he sold his products as was his affair. Therefore, watch companies were always called after people. Some were fine with that (Patek Philippe, Vacheron & Constantin, etc.), others sold under a variety of brand names. Louis Brand had "Helvetia", "Labrador", "Gürzelin" and later Omega, George Favre-Jacot had his own name (as did LB) as well as "Defi", "Diogenes" and "Billodes". The last one is from the company address (where it is still located): Rue de Billodes, Le Locle.

Hartmut Richter


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## jaxnmax (May 10, 2011)

Hello! I am very interested in asking about this pocket watch. I have one just like yours but the movement in gold has ornate designs on it. Do you have one like this or have you heard about or seen this before? I can post a picture if you want to see it. Other than this ornate design on the flat part of the movement, it is exactly like yours on the forum. I could use your help. Thank you!! email me at [email protected] thanks!!


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

jaxnmax said:


> Hello! I am very interested in asking about this pocket watch. I have one just like yours but the movement in gold has ornate designs on it. Do you have one like this or have you heard about or seen this before? I can post a picture if you want to see it. Other than this ornate design on the flat part of the movement, it is exactly like yours on the forum. I could use your help. Thank you!! email me at [email protected] thanks!!


Start a new thread in the forum. Post lots of pics! Help will arrive.


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## dunky (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

I cannot tell you any thing more about the watch except, that I have one and wondering if you can tell me, what 
would be the value of the watch, mine is the same as the one shown but is not in the same condition it has a few dents but is working well
,l 
we found the watch in our deceased uncles draw and we would like to know its worth 
Regards
Dunky


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## Marrick (May 2, 2007)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Hi

I'm sorry but we do not attempt valuations in this forum - there are stickies explaining why. We normally advise that you look on ebay and see what similar watches have actually sold for. e.g. Taschenuhr Silber 800 K.SERKISOFF & Co CONSTANTINOPLE | eBay but remember that condition is important.


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## bomer (Nov 25, 2012)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Hi,
Does anyone know the image on this sliver K.Sirkisoff pocket watch? any hints will be highly appreciated.


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## mpalmer (Dec 30, 2011)

That is one cool looking pocket watch! Congrats.


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## bomer (Nov 25, 2012)

Thanks mpalmer, do you know to whome the image belong to?


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## amphibic (Mar 25, 2012)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*



bomer said:


> Hi,
> Does anyone know the image on this sliver K.Sirkisoff pocket watch? any hints will be highly appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 886368


He is definitely an Ottoman Pasha or a Emperor.
I likened him Mehmet Reshad who is an Emperor between 1909 and 1918.

Here you can see another pictures and photos of Mehmed Reşad:
https://www.google.com.tr/search?cl...w&biw=1333&bih=645&sei=Lqi6UPj5JIPMhAeFtYCoBA


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## constantin-o-politan (Dec 25, 2008)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*



bomer said:


> Hi,
> Does anyone know the image on this sliver K.Sirkisoff pocket watch? any hints will be highly appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 886368


Hello,

This guy is neither an Ottoman ruler nor a pasha. He is the Persian Shah (ruler) from Qajar dynasty Naser al-Din Shah Qajar (1831-96).
Please see the photo:


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## bomer (Nov 25, 2012)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Hi,
I checked the link out that you posted , there
Were several mismatches that l noticed between Mehmat Reshad Pasha and the image , the Pasha usually appeared with short trimmed beard , also his hat did not have the feather, however I could see similaritlies in his face and the image.


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## bomer (Nov 25, 2012)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Hi constantin,
Can you post the source of Nasser din Shah picture?
Thanks


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## constantin-o-politan (Dec 25, 2008)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Hi Bomer

Write Naser al-Din Shah Qajar on 






 you shall automatically reach his page where you are going to find this and other images of that Persian ruler.
Hope it helps.


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## bomer (Nov 25, 2012)

*Re: K.Serkisoff & Co railway watch*

Thanks constantine for the link.


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## alfredhitchcock (Sep 23, 2012)

Nice dial


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Yes, the old Ottoman pocket watches usually had those. At the same time, there seems to be little variation in them.....

Hartmut Richter


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## julianjohansen (Nov 1, 2013)

The Arabic lettering on the movement says (unsurprisingly perhaps) "Serkisoff Shirketi" which is "Serkisoff Company" in Turkish. I believe Turkey switched to Latin script in 1927, so the watch must have been made before then.


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## hidden watches (Mar 4, 2014)

Hello,

If the number is 272, does tha mean, the date is older? 

Regards


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Welcome to Watchuseek. Which number are you referring to? Do you have a similar watch? In that case, please post pictures and we can tell you more.

Hartmut Richter


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## Crogge (Jul 9, 2014)

Here is my K.Serkisoff & Co pocket watch, been a few decades since the watch has been polished. The condition isn't perfect but its actually working still quite precise, can record a video soon to show it in action.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Nice - a pity about the dial crack. Once cleaned up, it would look just the ticket.

Hartmut Richter


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Crogge said:


> Here is my K.Serkisoff & Co pocket watch, been a few decades since the watch has been polished. The condition isn't perfect but its actually working still quite precise, can record a video soon to show it in action.


Hi and welcome
Nice piece
Please get a professional to clean and oil it.
Best not to run it till then.

Then post pictures of the watch
Enjoy
adam

Enjoy


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## Crogge (Jul 9, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Hi and welcome
> Nice piece
> Please get a professional to clean and oil it.
> Best not to run it till then.
> ...


Thank you, I will take care of that and won't run it until its properly maintained 



Hartmut Richter said:


> Nice - a pity about the dial crack. Once cleaned up, it would look just the ticket.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Yes it has sadly a quite visible crack on the front but the glass is fortunately intact, according to the previous owner it was even for a few weeks buried so the history of the watch is quite rough.


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## Onur Mutlu (Sep 26, 2020)

Hartmut Richter said:


> The movement is most certainly not by Zenith, but it is likely to be Swiss. The closest match I can find offhand is something by Unitas, e.g. Cal. 83:
> 
> bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Unitas 83
> 
> ...


Due to "Constantinople" carvings, probably company was located in Istanbul or made for Istanbul before Ottoman-Russian war which occured back in 1890. One of the working relics in my possession which came to me from my father's grandfather who fought in that exact war and one of his friends gifted it to him at the battle. I heard the stories of him having nightmares and screaming at night related with war. Anyway, it still works and I am keeping the relic for now. After all of these years I found out about this site and I am happy to have some about your knowledge. You may write to me related with this... Be safe and healthy!... "[email protected]"


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

Welcome to Watchuseek!


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