# Patek Philippe 5711 Wait Time



## JLenton (Feb 10, 2019)

Hey everyone.

Have any of you asked your local (or not so local) AD about the waitlist for a 5711? 

I’ve just been told 5-6 years, and have heard of others getting told upwards of 15 years (like… what?) yet some people claim to go from walking in to wearing the watch within 12 months.

Curious to hear others’ experiences around the UK and Europe, and if anyone knows what the ‘true’ situation is with it all.


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## MarqDePombal (Jan 1, 2015)

There is no "true situation". It's all on a case by case basis. So it's somewhere between 2 month and 15 years, and where you fall on that spectrum depends on many, many factors.

Like if I were to spend $200-300K on jewelry for my wife at a "small" PP AD I might have my 5711 within months. If I put my name on a list at a PP AD in a major city with no prior purchases, it'll be 15 years.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Being a 'well established' customer has its perks.


MarqDePombal said:


> There is no "true situation". It's all on a case by case basis. So it's somewhere between 2 month and 15 years, and where you fall on that spectrum depends on many, many factors.
> 
> Like if I were to spend $200-300K on jewelry for my wife at a "small" PP AD I might have my 5711 within months. If I put my name on a list at a PP AD in a major city with no prior purchases, it'll be 15 years.


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## MZhammer (Feb 27, 2009)

Man, where have you been if you're unfamiliar with the PP wait for 5711? Or any SS Nautilus or Aquanaut really... As others have said, spend enough and your name goes up the list. My AD in town won't even accept names any longer unless you're already a big jewelry client of theirs.


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## regulateurBear (Sep 1, 2018)

to me this sounds as a total lack of respect towards potential customers....nothing else...just another cheap way to main the faked 'holy trinity' thing.....it is obvious that this is artificial, nothing to do with real production capacity....


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## harryst (Nov 5, 2012)

regulateurBear said:


> to me this sounds as a total lack of respect towards potential customers....


They do not want to have these be seen *everywhere*. Why is this disrespectful?

The problem w/ the Nautilus (and some Rolexes, and the Royal Oak) is, IMHO, that via being so hard to get hold of, it has become a "look at me" (or "me too", or "I am so desperate for attention I had to beg + wait forever to get it") thing. It reflects bad on the wearer... guilty, by association (the objection that may be raised "people just love it so much they wait - status seeking is not in play", although plausible, is unlikely to apply to more than 15% of the cases; the watch is pretty but not that pretty...).


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## regulateurBear (Sep 1, 2018)

harryst said:


> They do not want to have these be seen *everywhere*. Why is this disrespectful?


because it comes from a place of pure arrogance, if a brand feels it can tell a customer he/she needs to wait 5-6 years, it means that they can play that game...if a product is in the catalogue and it is not limited for a given number, they should be able to supply it within a reasonable time....however, they know there are those that are in 'desperate' need, so they allow themselves to use those individuals to spread the fakes news of exclusivity....this is the arrogance...


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## harryst (Nov 5, 2012)

We are veering off course but it does not really matter as the watch is not purchasable 



regulateurBear said:


> if a product is in the catalogue and it is not limited for a given number


It is limited. Stern said he can sell twice as many Nautiluses a year but he is not going to do it.



> however, they know there are those that are in 'desperate' need, so they allow themselves to use those individual to spread the fakes news of exclusivity


I do not see any fake news. The watches are hard to get.



> .this is the arrogance...


Sorry, I think the premises of the argument are wrong.


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## MZhammer (Feb 27, 2009)

regulateurBear said:


> because it comes from a place of pure arrogance, if a brand feels it can tell a customer he/she needs to wait 5-6 years, it means that they can play that game...if a product is in the catalogue and it is not limited for a given number, they should be able to supply it within a reasonable time....however, they know there are those that are in 'desperate' need, so they allow themselves to use those individuals to spread the fakes news of exclusivity....this is the arrogance...


Gotta agree with @harryst here, you seem to be ignoring the importance of brand equity. The Sterns are trying to maintain and protect their brand while also not becoming a one watch brand like AP has essentially become. They know they could make and sell more nautiluses (nautili?). They raised the price from 23k to 30k without any change to the watch and demand didn't shift.

If they were to make enough nautiluses to sate demand, the second hand market would fall off which, today, is the primary value of PP (as their movement architecture is lazy, their modern design is boring and their finishing is nearly becoming second rate on entry level pieces). The Sterns are keenly aware of how much of their total value is public perception of retained value and exclusivity, and they guard it closely - something Rolex has done for years.

Do I want a Nautilus? You better believe it, but I know I'll never get one and that is fine. There's a ton of other great watches to be had with little to no waitlist. Don't get salty at basic business tactics, if you want something that has no wait and high quality go buy a grand seiko.


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## regulateurBear (Sep 1, 2018)

harryst said:


> It is limited. Stern said he can sell twice as many Nautiluses a year but he is not going to do it.


et voila, this is exactly the arrogance...


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

With production up to 55K now and with all their models and demand, there're doing okay. 'Oreo' is not on the dial.


regulateurBear said:


> to me this sounds as a total lack of respect towards potential customers....nothing else...just another cheap way to main the faked 'holy trinity' thing.....it is obvious that this is artificial, nothing to do with real production capacity....


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## Spangles (May 27, 2015)

Watchbreath said:


> With production up to 55K now and with all their models and demand, there're doing okay. 'Oreo' is not on the dial.


Oreo? I'm hoping this is a hydrox reference.

In any case, yeah, PP is doing well and limiting production of a model in order to protect brand diversity is in no way a bad thing for them. They are in a great place right now.

As you may have seen, a chart of models discontinued for 2019 has been leaked. A large number of calatravas was on it. They are likely refreshing the line at Baselworld.

Hopefully, it will go better than AP's Code 11.59! Although, AP will be fine, people having the watches in person are saying they are pretty good so with some evolution the line will succeed.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

It's a reference to coming off the line like them. About 10 years ago they were cracking out about 40K per year.


Spangles said:


> Oreo? I'm hoping this is a hydrox reference.
> 
> In any case, yeah, PP is doing well and limiting production of a model in order to protect brand diversity is in no way a bad thing for them. They are in a great place right now.
> 
> ...


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## UberDave (Jan 13, 2015)

regulateurBear said:


> to me this sounds as a total lack of respect towards potential customers....nothing else...just another cheap way to main the faked 'holy trinity' thing.....it is obvious that this is artificial, nothing to do with real production capacity....





regulateurBear said:


> because it comes from a place of pure arrogance, if a brand feels it can tell a customer he/she needs to wait 5-6 years, it means that they can play that game...if a product is in the catalogue and it is not limited for a given number, they should be able to supply it within a reasonable time....however, they know there are those that are in 'desperate' need, so they allow themselves to use those individuals to spread the fakes news of exclusivity....this is the arrogance...


Here, read Thierry Sterns words (emphases added and are mine). If you see only arrogance and fake news here, then there's nothing to debate.

JACK FORSTER
Over the last twenty years, I've seen an enormous increase in interest in fine watchmaking in the US. Part of that is a huge appetite for certain models, especially in steel. How do you balance demand against scarcity, and avoid creating so much frustration that it actually becomes counterproductive?

THIERRY STERN
You cannot handle it. We made this choice many years ago to say, there's a certain percentage of steel watches that Patek Philippe will do. You have to understand that ... *the factory that we have is not done to build only steel watches* ... Patek Philippe has always been always dealing with every kind of material: platinum, white gold, rose gold, yellow gold. Steel watches also, but it has to stay as a limited amount. So, how can I deal with it? *I can't. Sadly, I can't, so I really feel sorry when I hear that, yes, there is a four years, eight years waiting list. But that's also part of the beauty of Patek. *

*If you want a fine watch, sorry, I cannot overproduce them. I do not have the watchmakers, I do not have the people able to do that. *And I do not want, also, to do it. Patek Philippe is still a small company; we're willing to do the finest watches in the world. *I set the limit with the quantity because I know that over the quantity that I'm doing now, quality will be hurt.* And that's absolutely not what I'm willing to do, and I believe that the clients are not also willing to see that.

JACK FORSTER
So the production for particular watch models is rationalized around a chain of suppliers and a tooling process, and it's not as if you can just switch over from making a certain number of round gold watches to making a certain number of stainless steel sports watches. There are inherent limits?

THIERRY STERN
*There are limits, and you have to understand and they have to understand that, today for example, I'm working for 2029. I have to plan it for a lot of things, in terms of movements; in terms of cases we need about two to three years in advance. And all of that takes time, and there's no way I can increase that. The people who I have today are the best, and to be able to train another watchmaker, for example, for the finest watch, it's gonna take me 15 years. So, even if we decided today to increase production, I'm going to need 10 to 15 years before I can have those watchmakers. 
*
And again, is it something I'm willing to do? No, because I know that if we are overproducing, it's going to also be dangerous, dangerous for me in terms of quality, and maybe dangerous for the client, also because the value of the watch may decrease. And this is not what I'm willing to do, and this is not what you are willing to accept as a client.


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## JLenton (Feb 10, 2019)

MarqDePombal said:


> There is no "true situation". It's all on a case by case basis. So it's somewhere between 2 month and 15 years, and where you fall on that spectrum depends on many, many factors.
> 
> Like if I were to spend $200-300K on jewelry for my wife at a "small" PP AD I might have my 5711 within months. If I put my name on a list at a PP AD in a major city with no prior purchases, it'll be 15 years.


Thanks for your reply. Best get saving&#8230; and making the wife happy.


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## JLenton (Feb 10, 2019)

Here, read Thierry Sterns words (emphases added and are mine). If you see only arrogance and fake news here, then there's nothing to debate.

JACK FORSTER
Over the last twenty years, I've seen an enormous increase in interest in fine watchmaking in the US. Part of that is a huge appetite for certain models, especially in steel. How do you balance demand against scarcity, and avoid creating so much frustration that it actually becomes counterproductive?

THIERRY STERN
You cannot handle it. We made this choice many years ago to say, there's a certain percentage of steel watches that Patek Philippe will do. You have to understand that ... *the factory that we have is not done to build only steel watches* ... Patek Philippe has always been always dealing with every kind of material: platinum, white gold, rose gold, yellow gold. Steel watches also, but it has to stay as a limited amount. So, how can I deal with it? *I can't. Sadly, I can't, so I really feel sorry when I hear that, yes, there is a four years, eight years waiting list. But that's also part of the beauty of Patek. *

*If you want a fine watch, sorry, I cannot overproduce them. I do not have the watchmakers, I do not have the people able to do that. *And I do not want, also, to do it. Patek Philippe is still a small company; we're willing to do the finest watches in the world. *I set the limit with the quantity because I know that over the quantity that I'm doing now, quality will be hurt.* And that's absolutely not what I'm willing to do, and I believe that the clients are not also willing to see that.

JACK FORSTER
So the production for particular watch models is rationalized around a chain of suppliers and a tooling process, and it's not as if you can just switch over from making a certain number of round gold watches to making a certain number of stainless steel sports watches. There are inherent limits?

THIERRY STERN
*There are limits, and you have to understand and they have to understand that, today for example, I'm working for 2029. I have to plan it for a lot of things, in terms of movements; in terms of cases we need about two to three years in advance. And all of that takes time, and there's no way I can increase that. The people who I have today are the best, and to be able to train another watchmaker, for example, for the finest watch, it's gonna take me 15 years. So, even if we decided today to increase production, I'm going to need 10 to 15 years before I can have those watchmakers. 
*
And again, is it something I'm willing to do? No, because I know that if we are overproducing, it's going to also be dangerous, dangerous for me in terms of quality, and maybe dangerous for the client, also because the value of the watch may decrease. And this is not what I'm willing to do, and this is not what you are willing to accept as a client.[/QUOTE]

Super interesting read. Thanks man. I certainly don't spite Patek for it, they've built a damn good brand, a desirable product, and are in a fortunate position for it.


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## UberDave (Jan 13, 2015)

JLenton said:


> Super interesting read. Thanks man. I certainly don't spite Patek for it, they've built a damn good brand, a desirable product, and are in a fortunate position for it.


I always find it sort of confusing the way some people seem to think that a company owes something to potential customers. Build me the watch I want and sell it to me at the price I'd like to pay, else fear my wrath! Mr. Stern does well to point out that his foremost obligation is to the people who already own Patek watches.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Hmmm, I don't recall any whining about the wait time for a 'Philippe Dufour'.


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## regulateurBear (Sep 1, 2018)

UberDave said:


> Mr. Stern does well to point out that his foremost obligation is to the people who already own Patek watches.


you really believe so??...then great...with my great naivety I thought his foremost obligation is to do what he believes is the best for his own company....

and getting back to the up to 15 years waiting list for the 5711, as an example of course...
just a small story, from my own experience....years ago, I was at the IWC boutique in Schaffhausen, a guy came in and the lady asked him what is for, his answer was that he is looking for anything, which is limited edition watch. When the seller offered him other models, he did not seem interested and left....at that instance, I probably got exposed, probably the first time to the impact the words 'limited edition' may have on certain individuals...
Now, according to my own judgement, what does a brand that does not have or wish to have a particular model as limited does that in order that it will have the flavor of a limited piece ??...well, I guess artificial shortage, that of course, has to be wrapped and sold in the correct manner, is not such a bad idea....I guess also that is not new as a marketing trick and in order to keep those that are ready to do that, entering ridiculous 'waiting lists'...nothing new about that, plenty of explanations and examples out there under artificial scarcity. I will just say that I guess this is the reality in this particular case as we are really talking here about 5711, that if we want, or if we don't, although being a PP, it is indeed a simple watch of time and date...now, if Mr. Stern would come and say listen, you have significant waiting time for a 6300G or 5374P, just as examples, alright...but up to 15 years for a time/date model...please....and again, I think PP really do not invent here anything, after all it's the same story for robot-made mass produced pieces by Rolex....


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## UberDave (Jan 13, 2015)

regulateurBear said:


> you really believe so??...then great...with my great naivety I thought his foremost obligation is to do what he believes is the best for his own company....
> 
> and getting back to the up to 15 years waiting list for the 5711, as an example of course...
> just a small story, from my own experience....years ago, I was at the IWC boutique in Schaffhausen, a guy came in and the lady asked him what is for, his answer was that he is looking for anything, which is limited edition watch. When the seller offered him other models, he did not seem interested and left....at that instance, I probably got exposed, probably the first time to the impact the words 'limited edition' may have on certain individuals...
> Now, according to my own judgement, what does a brand that does not have or wish to have a particular model as limited does that in order that it will have the flavor of a limited piece ??...well, I guess artificial shortage, that of course, has to be wrapped and sold in the correct manner, is not such a bad idea....I guess also that is not new as a marketing trick and in order to keep those that are ready to do that, entering ridiculous 'waiting lists'...nothing new about that, plenty of explanations and examples out there under artificial scarcity. I will just say that I guess this is the reality in this particular case as we are really talking here about 5711, that if we want, or if we don't, although being a PP, it is indeed a simple watch of time and date...now, if Mr. Stern would come and say listen, you have significant waiting time for a 6300G or 5374P, just as examples, alright...but up to 15 years for a time/date model...please....and again, I think PP really do not invent here anything, after all it's the same story for robot-made mass produced pieces by Rolex....


As best I can tell, you're banging the same drum but now are doing so less coherently. An outsider shouting "artificial scarcity" doesn't make the scarcity artificial. If Stern says he has chosen not to make more stainless watches for fear of diminishing the brand value and quality concerns, why would you disbelieve him? He's a primary stakeholder in the company's well-being. Again, and this is important: Patek does not owe you a watch.


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## regulateurBear (Sep 1, 2018)

UberDave said:


> If Stern says he has chosen not to make more stainless watches for fear of diminishing the brand value and quality concerns, why would you disbelieve him?


sorry, in your quote from above I thought this what Stern said about restricting production: 'If you want a fine watch, sorry, I cannot overproduce them. I do not have the watchmakers, I do not have the people able to do that'....

And concerning that Patek does not owe me a watch, I guess you refer in the context of this thread to the 5711....in such a case you should ask me first if I want one. My honest answer would be No. My very personal take in this mater, is that I do not like this model, and for nearly 30K, I think there are very generous options out there....
Again, I think waiting 15 years for a really basic mechanical watch does not pass any rational test.


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## UberDave (Jan 13, 2015)

regulateurBear said:


> sorry, in your quote from above I thought this what Stern said about restricting production: 'If you want a fine watch, sorry, I cannot overproduce them. I do not have the watchmakers, I do not have the people able to do that'....
> 
> And concerning that Patek does not owe me a watch, I guess you refer in the context of this thread to the 5711....in such a case you should ask me first if I want one. My honest answer would be No. My very personal take in this mater, is that I do not like this model, and for nearly 30K, I think there are very generous options out there....
> Again, I think waiting 15 years for a really basic mechanical watch does not pass any rational test.


OK.


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## JLenton (Feb 10, 2019)

Watchbreath said:


> Hmmm, I don't recall any whining about the wait time for a 'Philippe Dufour'.


To be fair I'd need the wait time on one of those to get my net worth up&#8230; ?


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## MZhammer (Feb 27, 2009)

regulateurBear said:


> sorry, in your quote from above I thought this what Stern said about restricting production: 'If you want a fine watch, sorry, I cannot overproduce them. I do not have the watchmakers, I do not have the people able to do that'....
> 
> And concerning that Patek does not owe me a watch, I guess you refer in the context of this thread to the 5711....in such a case you should ask me first if I want one. My honest answer would be No. My very personal take in this mater, is that I do not like this model, and for nearly 30K, I think there are very generous options out there....
> Again, I think waiting 15 years for a really basic mechanical watch does not pass any rational test.


Honestly, so what? Perhaps he doesn't want to grow his company and risk being in an overextended place when the economy takes another, inevitable down turn, perhaps he doesn't want to risk oversupplying the market and deflating a brand that his family has worked diligently over many years to build into something that can command a 15 year wait list for simple, uncomplicated watches....

Why does that bother you? In that line of thinking, literally evey production model that has a wait list should bother you as, realistically, human capital and resources aren't so scare that they can't be made up for. He _could_ hire watchmakers from Lange or VC, he _could_ add more CNC machines to get the SS cases ready for hand finishing, he _could_ take a loan and build a larger facility for production... he _*could*_ do many things but he doesn't owe it to anyone and what he _*is*_ doing is what he feels will protect his company and product in the long term.

Seriously, how is that so difficult for you to grasp?


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## regulateurBear (Sep 1, 2018)

MZhammer said:


> Honestly, so what? Perhaps he doesn't want to grow his company and risk being in an overextended place when the economy takes another, inevitable down turn, perhaps he doesn't want to risk oversupplying the market and deflating a brand that his family has worked diligently over many years to build into something that can command a 15 year wait list for simple, uncomplicated watches....
> 
> Why does that bother you? In that line of thinking, literally evey production model that has a wait list should bother you as, realistically, human capital and resources aren't so scare that they can't be made up for. He _could_ hire watchmakers from Lange or VC, he _could_ add more CNC machines to get the SS cases ready for hand finishing, he _could_ take a loan and build a larger facility for production... he _*could*_ do many things but he doesn't owe it to anyone and what he _*is*_ doing is what he feels will protect his company and product in the long term.
> 
> Seriously, how is that so difficult for you to grasp?


I think you are missing my point and you ignore the arrogance I was mentioning upstream....but that is fine.
According to too many predictors, the watch industry is going into sort of stagnation. There are also too many analysts stirring the pot and looking for all the possible external reasons for that. Few are daring to look inside in order to question the industry itself as the major driver towards such a recession. 
Indeed, you can just ignore my thoughts as expressed above. What I would nevertheless warmly recommend you, in case you haven't done it so far is to read the recent excellent and courageous writing, that to me seems to be somehow ignored by Ariel Adams from the beginning of February. One of the few major problems he is discussing is addressed as 'How Industry Insecurity Breeds Arrogance'.
Great read....


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## KtWUS (Mar 19, 2016)

regulateurBear said:


> et voila, this is exactly the arrogance...


I'm confused - are you saying it is *not true* that Patek could sell twice the number of Nautiluses? I think its probably true.

According to Stern himself, he is unable to produce twice the number of Nautiluses without incurring major costs and taking risks - I'm inclined to believe him. Many have talked about how hard it is to get trained watchmakers. Even the 'humble' time/date Nautilus has finishing levels considerably higher than a Rolex. Is your point that Patek is *arrogant* for not incurring those costs and taking those risks?

If anything, I think it would be arrogant if Patek switches production purely to time/date steel Nautilus. It is the criticism people level at AP all the time - that they are resting on their laurels and relying solely on the Royal Oak to maintain their reputation as a successful watchmaking company. I have no skin in the game, I don't own a Patek, but I for one am glad that Patek is not devoting all their resources to the Nautilus.


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## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

JLenton said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> Have any of you asked your local (or not so local) AD about the waitlist for a 5711?
> 
> ...


here is my personal experience,
i asked in my patek AD about the 5711 and i have been told that the waiting time is 7 years (at least). so i opted for the 5726 and i have been told the waiting time is 2 years for the white dial. the next day i called and changed my waiting request to the 5726 grey dial and i was told the waiting list for that is (3 years).
surprisingly, there is a natural phenomena that i was unable to explain until very recently. next to the patek AD, there was a jewellery shop that always stacked all kind of Nautilus (and i mean all references) and of course he would only sell them for a premium.
so everytime i go to the AD they would say we don't have a Nautilus but aw by the way our neighbor here have some.
long story short i got ot chat with many watch dealers around the city and they all agreed that there is a deal between the manager of the Patek AD and the person who owns this shop whereby they would give him Nautilus, he would sell them for a premium and they would share the profit (the same was happening few years ago in the same country with the hype of AP Royal Oak).
so what did i do......i decided that i'm not going to wait and overpay for the Nautilus, i've decided i am not going to wait and overpay for the AP RO, i did go out and get me a Vacheron Constantin Overseas and i absolutely love it. i made the right choice


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## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

regulateurBear said:


> because it comes from a place of pure arrogance, if a brand feels it can tell a customer he/she needs to wait 5-6 years, it means that they can play that game...if a product is in the catalogue and it is not limited for a given number, they should be able to supply it within a reasonable time....however, they know there are those that are in 'desperate' need, so they allow themselves to use those individuals to spread the fakes news of exclusivity....this is the arrogance...


smart customers should abandon watches that have waiting list (PP Nautilus and AP Royal Oak) and go with the one that doesn't have a waiting list (VC Overseas). it is essentially the same offering. highly refined holy trinity steel sports watch


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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

^
Except the flaw in that argument is the VCOs don’t have the same residual value or profitability as the hot Pateks and ROs – often that’s the only real draw to those models, not the actual designs themselves.


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## Spangles (May 27, 2015)

PJ S said:


> ^
> Except the flaw in that argument is the VCOs don't have the same residual value or profitability as the hot Pateks and ROs - often that's the only real draw to those models, not the actual designs themselves.


So, the way out is to buy a watch you love and wear it for life ("4 lyfe").


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## ar7iste (Sep 24, 2016)

Urban Jurgensen is entering the High end steel sports watch now. I'm curious to see how it's going to turn out and if it's going to shake things up a bit. There is even a GMT option.


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## UberDave (Jan 13, 2015)

Azizu said:


> smart customers should abandon watches that have waiting list (PP Nautilus and AP Royal Oak) and go with the one that doesn't have a waiting list (VC Overseas). it is essentially the same offering. highly refined holy trinity steel sports watch


All due respect to both you and the VC, it's rude and off-base to say someone who waits patiently for the watch they actually want is not a smart customer. They're not the same watches. The fact that you think they are suggests either you're rationalizing your choice, don't care about the differences, or only care about the idea of owning a trinity brand watch.


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

ar7iste said:


> Urban Jurgensen is entering the High end steel sports watch now. I'm curious to see how it's going to turn out and if it's going to shake things up a bit. There is even a GMT option.
> View attachment 13947265


 My prediction: Only very few people are going to buy it while the majority couldn't care less.


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## MZhammer (Feb 27, 2009)

ar7iste said:


> Urban Jurgensen is entering the High end steel sports watch now. I'm curious to see how it's going to turn out and if it's going to shake things up a bit. There is even a GMT option.
> 
> View attachment 13947265


I can't imagine this will take a bit out of any of the trinity sport watches. It isn't as derivative as some modern entrants, like the Piaget Polo S, but I also don't think it does justice to the "sport" category. Reminds me of the Breguet Marine, a weird straddling of dressy and sporty design that just misses (IMHO).


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## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

UberDave said:


> All due respect to both you and the VC, it's rude and off-base to say someone who waits patiently for the watch they actually want is not a smart customer. They're not the same watches. The fact that you think they are suggests either you're rationalizing your choice, don't care about the differences, or only care about the idea of owning a trinity brand watch.


You say they are not the same watches. 
What do you get from the Nautilus or Royal oak that you dont get from the Overseas?

They are all holy trinity and they are all made to the highest standards of finishing.
I just find it really convenient for me that one of them doesnt have a "waiting list" and when i owned it i found everything i wanted in it.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## UberDave (Jan 13, 2015)

Azizu said:


> You say they are not the same watches.
> What do you get from the Nautilus or Royal oak that you dont get from the Overseas?
> 
> They are all holy trinity and they are all made to the highest standards of finishing.
> ...


You get aesthetic differences. I love the Royal Oak, I don't like the VC or Nautilus. So they're not a valid substitute for me. You don't seem to care about the differences, so the VC is a valid substitute for you. That doesn't make you smarter than me.


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## MZhammer (Feb 27, 2009)

UberDave said:


> You get aesthetic differences. I love the Royal Oak, I don't like the VC or Nautilus. So they're not a valid substitute for me. You don't seem to care about the differences, so the VC is a valid substitute for you. That doesn't make you smarter than me.


+1 no one is saying the VC isn't an equally well made watch, but not having a waitlist doesn't make it a no-brainer. I tried on the VC and the 42mm is just too big for my taste. The bracelet is superbly comfortable, but I dislike the visual designs of it. I strongly considered a Deep Stream to avoid the bracelet and, had it worn smaller, I might have bought it because the design is cool. But, at the end of the day, it is a really different watch than the AP and the PP.

There is also something to be said for being a Genta design, there is a history and significance there that the VC will never have; for some, it doesn't matter at all, for others it does. The VC is an excellent watch, easily on par with the AP and PP offerings at a fraction of the price used or readily available new but that doesn't make it a _better_ watch.


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## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

UberDave said:


> You get aesthetic differences. I love the Royal Oak, I don't like the VC or Nautilus. So they're not a valid substitute for me. You don't seem to care about the differences, so the VC is a valid substitute for you. That doesn't make you smarter than me.


that's ok, i am not trying to convert you. i will remain in love with my VC overseas which i own and wear almost daily.
and you remain in love with your Royal Oak that you are still waiting for it on the waiting list


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## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

MZhammer said:


> +1 no one is saying the VC isn't an equally well made watch, but not having a waitlist doesn't make it a no-brainer. I tried on the VC and the 42mm is just too big for my taste. The bracelet is superbly comfortable, but I dislike the visual designs of it. I strongly considered a Deep Stream to avoid the bracelet and, had it worn smaller, I might have bought it because the design is cool. But, at the end of the day, it is a really different watch than the AP and the PP.
> 
> There is also something to be said for being a Genta design, there is a history and significance there that the VC will never have; for some, it doesn't matter at all, for others it does. The VC is an excellent watch, easily on par with the AP and PP offerings at a fraction of the price used or readily available new but that doesn't make it a _better_ watch.


I guess the VC overseas is an acquired taste. everyday that passes by i seem to enjoy it more.
as far as Genta design, that is not a major value proposition for me. Most of the legendary and most desirable and collectable Patek's were not Genta design. just think of the following references: 1463, 1527, 1591, 2438, 2497, 2499, 3448, 3450, 3651, 3970, 5970 and many many more. none of them were Genta's design and they did pretty well


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## UberDave (Jan 13, 2015)

Azizu said:


> that's ok, i am not trying to convert you. i will remain in love with my VC overseas which i own and wear almost daily.
> and you remain in love with your Royal Oak that you are still waiting for it on the waiting list


This is a fine outcome for me. And it's not one that makes me less smart!


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## MZhammer (Feb 27, 2009)

Azizu said:


> I guess the VC overseas is an acquired taste. everyday that passes by i seem to enjoy it more.
> as far as Genta design, that is not a major value proposition for me. Most of the legendary and most desirable and collectable Patek's were not Genta design. just think of the following references: 1463, 1527, 1591, 2438, 2497, 2499, 3448, 3450, 3651, 3970, 5970 and many many more. none of them were Genta's design and they did pretty well


All of them are an acquired taste, and all of them wear and present differently so people will acquire some and not others. It doesn't mean anyone is folish for not acquiring the same taste you do.

That's fine, the Genta influence may not be part of the value prop to you, but to others it is. I think its safe to say that the Royal Oak was one of the most influential watches in modern history due to the fact that it shifted the paradigm in luxury watches towards true Veblen goods, and the industry reacted and changed. That significance and connection to Genta matters to some people, and to others it does not (Just like for some people the NASA connection with the Speedy is a big part of the allure, and for others it isn't).


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## Paul_MD (Feb 9, 2015)

I've given up on a 5711. They are now an object of obsession rather than a watch. 

You can get perpetual calendar or chrono for the price of a 5711. It's insane.


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## HTown (Jan 5, 2015)

Paul_MD said:


> I've given up on a 5711. They are now an object of obsession rather than a watch.
> 
> You can get perpetual calendar or chrono for the price of a 5711. It's insane.


Well said.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

regulateurBear said:


> because it comes from a place of pure arrogance, if a brand feels it can tell a customer he/she needs to wait 5-6 years, it means that they can play that game...if a product is in the catalogue and it is not limited for a given number, they should be able to supply it within a reasonable time....however, they know there are those that are in 'desperate' need, so they allow themselves to use those individuals to spread the fakes news of exclusivity....this is the arrogance...


The customer isn't told to wait 5-6 years, the production numbers of those models are limited and every AD gets thier share every year which they then distribute to their clients as they wish.
if an AD gets 5 or 6 5711 per year and the waitin list has 70 names you can do the math.
the production numbers haven't changed, its the demand that changed.
let me ask you this, why does everyone want the SS model. why don't people go for the Calatrava? they are priced almost the same?
demand is fueling this shortage


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## WatchEater666 (May 27, 2019)

Paul_MD said:


> I've given up on a 5711. They are now an object of obsession rather than a watch.
> 
> You can get perpetual calendar or chrono for the price of a 5711. It's insane.


Yep. Makes zero sense to me as well. I would take a chrono any day over a pretty basic sport watch.


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## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

First there was my 1st Gen VC overseas chronograph









then was my 2nd Gen VC overseas chronograph









third was my APRO 15500










All finished to the highest quality,
now all these wathes i have aquired while waiting for my nautilus 
so my waiting haven't been terriable


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## Gallowglass (Sep 16, 2020)

It's 5-6 years at the AD's I've asked although you can get a few watches you may not be interested in. I wont wait more than a few months and I wont pay a premium on the grey market for any watch or any brand . It just feels wrong to get into a long queue for something costing so much. PP now falls into my Hip Hop Curse category like Rolex. Once you end up in song lyrics watch brands stop being haute horology and become nothing but status symbols. Tacky, follow the leader, gold bars on your wrist and I wont play. Leave the fools to it and find something of equal quality that doesn't have the brand vultures drooling over it. Stealth wealth .


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## Perazzi-man (Oct 14, 2014)

All the wait-list times are estimates. And the Stern's plans are working great for them.


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## Cincy2 (May 3, 2020)

For several years I was an Italian sports car enthusiast. The situation described in this thread is very similar to what you faced if you wanted a new Ferrari or Lamborghini. You had to play the game with the dealerships. Often, you had to buy one of the cars on their lot in order to get a production slot for the car you really wanted. They would buy it back in a trade but their cash flow and their sales numbers improved as did your wait time. I wouldn't play the game. I found you could get fantastic private or secondary market deals on gently used cars with maybe 1000 miles (collectors who weren't car guys) on them and not have to deal with all the dealer BS. When I made the transition to watch collecting I adopted the same strategy. A 3-5 year old watch returned to the manufacturer for a $1500 service is indistinguishable from a new one. Much less stress and a lot more enjoyment.

Cincy


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

Patek has already become a sports only company, their other dress watches can’t sell. The Nautilus and Aquanaut is like the Birkin and Kelly of Hermes. They need to use that to get rid of the other boring calatravas. Get people to buy more patek not so popular models in order to have the right to buy sports models. Rolex seems to be playing this game as wel now.


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## Vallée de Joux - (Oct 19, 2020)

Paul_MD said:


> I've given up on a 5711. They are now an object of obsession rather than a watch.
> 
> You can get perpetual calendar or chrono for the price of a 5711. It's insane.


The bubble has been growing for years.. Not sure anything will change anytime soon.

This obsession with status and Social Media likes is ruining it all for the ones who got into it for the right reasons.

Sad to see it reaching this level of insanity


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## Rolexplorer (Sep 6, 2018)

I could never care enough about any watch to wait years. Ree_Diculous.
To each their own.
They are just watches.


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## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

Azizu said:


> First there was my 1st Gen VC overseas chronograph
> View attachment 15458146
> 
> 
> ...


New update, finally got my 5712 and it was so worth the wait
i'll leave you with some wrist shots
of course the watch came sealed at the AD









i brought in my APRO just for sizing purposes, otherwise i would've walked in with one of my other Patek (out of respect to the AD )









what an awesome watch, the photo doesn't do it justice 









on the plane few days later









how about that shot with elephant rock?









questions, comments, suggestions are welcome


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## ekeyte (Sep 25, 2020)

Was that the most successful troll this forum has ever seen? Hats off.


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

ekeyte said:


> Was that the most successful troll this forum has ever seen? Hats off.


Troll? I don't see it.

And there are long, long, long threads on the public forum that are more obvious trolling and some where the OP has been banned.


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## ndrs63 (Dec 30, 2017)

I’ve been told not to bother, as they have a loong list of customers that spent in the 6-digit figures ahead of me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HTown (Jan 5, 2015)

ndrs63 said:


> I've been told not to bother, as they have a loong list of customers that spent in the 6-digit figures ahead of me
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know about 5711s, but I've spent six figures at my AD (a prominent multi-brand dealer) over the last 2 years, including 2 Pateks. When I recently asked about getting a 5167a, I was told "that's not going to happen."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ekeyte (Sep 25, 2020)

HTown said:


> I don't know about 5711s, but I've spent six figures at my AD (a prominent multi-brand dealer) over the last 2 years, including 2 Pateks. When I recently asked about getting a 5167a, I was told "that's not going to happen."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow. I guess 6 figures isn't enough to set you apart at Patek. Maybe the guy in front of you spent 7 figures.


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## Atone (Apr 20, 2015)

ekeyte said:


> Was that the most successful troll this forum has ever seen? Hats off.


😂


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

ekeyte said:


> Wow. I guess 6 figures isn't enough to set you apart at Patek. Maybe the guy in front of you spent 7 figures.


Could be that they are in such short supply, some dealers can't get them no matter how good a customer they have.


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## ekeyte (Sep 25, 2020)

dbostedo said:


> Could be that they are in such short supply, some dealers can't get them no matter how good a customer they have.


That makes sense, good point. I'm so far removed from Patek.


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## Atone (Apr 20, 2015)

MZhammer said:


> Gotta agree with @harryst here, you seem to be ignoring the importance of brand equity. The Sterns are trying to maintain and protect their brand while also not becoming a one watch brand like AP has essentially become. They know they could make and sell more nautiluses (nautili?). They raised the price from 23k to 30k without any change to the watch and demand didn't shift.
> 
> If they were to make enough nautiluses to sate demand, the second hand market would fall off which, today, is the primary value of PP (as their movement architecture is lazy, their modern design is boring and their finishing is nearly becoming second rate on entry level pieces). The Sterns are keenly aware of how much of their total value is public perception of retained value and exclusivity, and they guard it closely - something Rolex has done for years.
> 
> Do I want a Nautilus? You better believe it, but I know I'll never get one and that is fine. There's a ton of other great watches to be had with little to no waitlist. Don't get salty at basic business tactics, if you want something that has no wait and high quality go buy a grand seiko.


well Said.


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## mykii (Oct 22, 2010)

I was told it would be ~5 odd years, with a couple of years wait time to get on the wait list itself, combined with a couple hundred thousand spend at my AD.


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## JSB79 (Nov 11, 2020)

Get something more unique. The 5711 craze it out of control. This summer at lunches I would look around as it my custom and noted that almost EVERY man on both side of our table at every damn meal was wearing a 5711 or another Nautilus variant. My fiancee and I would joke that they must have seated us in the Patek section again. It seems like most people want this watch to flex on others, but is it that special if everyone has it? Are you a connoisseur or a follower at that point? Also, lol @ ever debasing yourself and begging an AD be it Rolex or PP to LET you give them 10s of thousands of dollars. Truly a sick world.


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