# Panerai Movements ? In house or 3rd party (ETA)



## ytil

*Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Considering a new watch and looking into Panerai.
I understand that Panerai utilizes 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] party movements such as ETA mostly on their Luminor cases and on the 1950 cases they have the in house movements.
Although Panerai has a great history, they have started to develop movements in house only recently since 2005 and ETA probably do that for some decades back. 
Panerai certifies their ETA movements with COSC and for the in house they don't. Movements wise, they are a very young company in the industry.

My question is, giving all that, 
are the in house movements really good? 
What is their accuracy compared to COSC performance? 
Why won't they certify the in house as well?

What do you think and what is your personal experience with the in house movements?

Thanks,


----------



## Scott S

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Lots of brands are giving up on COSC certification, considering it kind of antiquated. My inhouse movement 425 keeps near perfect time.


----------



## korneevy

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

I sense you may have some misgivings as to how the watch industry works...if I am mistaken, I do apologize but here it is:

Firstly, you don't buy in-house because it is "better" than ETA in rudimentary (eg. keep time more accurately or have longer power reserve etc.) sense of this definition. You buy for the prestige of manufacture, quality of decoration (in some cases, and Panerai here can do a lot better on the decoration front of things), and exclusivity due to limited production volume. Manufacture nature of movements is important for some, others could not care less. I have both ETA and manufacture and I didnt srtop wearing my ETA-powered Panerai after I bought a Jaeger Master Compressor Chrono, if you care to know...may be even on the contrary

Now, in terms of quality of product - you need to understand that Panerai is part of the Richemond Group (look them up if it sounds foreign) and as such, shares R&D and cost of production of many components - including movement design and manufacture - with such heavy weights as Jaeger, Vacheron, Lange, among others. So, while you are right in saying their "PAM branded" movements are fairly new, they are working off the R&D and existing base movements designs that are probably a few decades old. You think it is a coincidence that IWC and PAM both come out with 8 day handwind movements at same time few years back?

Regarding certification and testing, most agree that COSC is a rather meaningless piece of paper designed to make things look "serious" for first-time luxury timepiece buyer...but in reality, it tests the movement only, e.g. not cased up which is kind of idiotic as it has little relevance to how the said movement will perform in real-life environments inside of a particular case. Most of in-house stuff is targeting a more "experienced" buyer and is expensive to produce to begin with, without having to pay COSC for debatable certification, so many brands instead introduce testing that is much more rigorous and meaningful as compared with COSC. Notably JLC, with their 1,000 master control hour test. Panerai also does a fairly good job of explaining what and how they test their manufacture movements too, look it up on their web-site or in catalogs.

So, in summary, while Panerai make it sound like they some small workshop in Neuchatel, with a handful of "artisans" who create hand-made-everything in that building near the lake, it is not much but pure marketing. They are a part of $10+ billion dollar gorilla in the business and as a consumer who is aware and understand/can live with this fact, you can sleep soundly knowing they are among the leaders in the business, will stand by their product and its quality.

In the end, it should come to what you like and can afford, and choosing the best combo of these two factors will produce a watch you will be happy to wear for years to come...or not, but it is a different story


----------



## bigmac3161

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

What u mean little watch making elves didn't make my 243 :-(


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Thanks korneevy for your detailed reply,

Actually, I'm quite familiar with most of the things you wrote, the Richemont group is the second larger watch conglomerate in the world I believe and as such they would probably stand a high standard for their companies in the group and particularly the higher end member with Panerai among them.

You are right by saying that we are buying more than just a movement, it's a design, needs impression we like, brand and so on&#8230;

I have a long experience with excellent ETA movements that some of them are COSC and I think that COSC does have a meaning, in order to pass their test and perform in their spec you need to use the better components and the higher grade of movements. Rolex keep using COSC and they probably know something about quality, although they are the king of marketing to my opinion no one could say anything bad about their quality.

It is interesting to know about the R&D cooperation within the Richmont group, and you may have a point there with the 8 day movement for OP and IWC, I'm not aware to this kind of activity in the group.

I wanted to know about accuracy performance for the so called in house movements, OP doesn't put a performance spec. If you or anyone else has info about that I would love to hear, it is interesting to me and also about the reliability during their "short" live since presented as Panerai in house movement.

After all, OP still uses COSC but for some reason not for their own manufacture, I like that brand and considering seriously owning one with their in house movement, just curious...

Thanks,


----------



## Travelller

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



ytil said:


> ...OP still uses COSC but for some reason not for their own manufacture...


As already alluded to by Korneevy, OP "certifies" their in-house, in-house (CTMP - see below)... . As a matter of fact, their in-house certification is more stringent than the COSC, verifying variances not only in the traditional six positions but also at two different stages of power reserve... .



Travelller said:


> FWIW, Panerai has an own name for their accuarcy test: CTMP (*Contrôle Technique des Montres Panerai*) :-!
> 
> *PANERAI TESTS FOR WATCHES WITH IN-HOUSE MOVEMENTS*
> In the course of their construction at the Panerai Manufacture, the in-house calibres - and the watches as a whole - are certified after undergoing several demanding final tests of its accuracy, regularity of operation, ageing and water-resistance.
> 
> *RATE CONTROLS AND CTMP TEST (CONTRÔLE TECHNIQUE DES MONTRES PANERAI)*
> Test carried out to check the regularity of operation of the movement combining the measurement of the average rate at a given moment and its stability in operation over time and in different positions of the watch.
> 
> *CHRONOFIABLE® TEST (NIHS 93-20 STANDARD), ACCELERATION TEST (NIHS 91-10 AND NIHS 91-30 STANDARDS)*
> These consist of checks carried out over 21 consecutive days, during which the movement is subjected to various dynamic stress cycles, to assess the resistance of all the components, the maintenance of a regular rate and of the correct functioning for the period indicated. The test cycle is equivalent to the use of the watch for about 6 months on the wearer's wrist. Thermic and climatic tests are also carried out over 14 days in total (included in the above-mentioned 21 days), exposing the watch between 17°C and 57°C with 75% humidity.
> 
> *AGEING TEST OF THE HAND-SETTING MECHANISM AND WINDING STEM*
> This test is performed by carrying out a series of 1,000 cycles on the winding stem and the hand-setting mechanism, followed by a resistance test of the winding stem subjected to a force of 25N.
> 
> *AGEING TEST OF THE WINDING MECHANISM*
> This test simulates the use of the watch for about 5 years.
> 
> *ANTIMAGNETIC WATCH (ISO 764 STANDARD)*
> In the presence of magnetic fields of average intensity (4,800 A/m) the watch must continue to run regularly.
> 
> *TESTS CARRIED OUT ON THE CASE*
> The quality of every single component of the case is checked. Then, after the case has been assembled, it undergoes its first test for water-resistance, to guarantee the protection it provides against the infiltration of dust and humidity. When the watch (case, movement and dial) has been assembled, it is tested again using various instruments to ensure the perfect water-resistance of your watch. Moreover, the case undergoes: the thermal shock test to verify the resistance of the parts to sudden temperature variations; the damp heat test to determine the reliability of the watch under dampness and heat conditions; the salt spray test to check the corrosion resistance, and the synthetic sweat test to verify possible alterations by artificially simulating the conditions of use.
> 
> *WATER-RESISTANCE TEST (ISO 22810 STANDARD)*
> The case of the watch is subjected to a long series of tests, carried out at various temperatures and according to procedures which ensure its complete water-resistance. To simulate the effects which could occur in the event of the watch being exposed to a shower or immersed in water for a long time, the case is initially tested by a vacuum apparatus, then it is placed in a little bath with a few centimetres of water for a set period of time. The water-resistance test is carried out by a special instrument which subjects the watch to a pressure significantly greater than the guaranteed value of water-resistance. Finally, the strict Panerai standards provide for a "water drop" test, which is performed by heating the case and placing a drop of cold water on the surface of the crystal protecting the dial. In this way, the possibility that there might be any moisture inside the case itself is eliminated.
> 
> *THE WINDING CROWN. SHOCK RESISTANCE TEST*
> The test carried out on the winding crown consists of subjecting the crown itself to the shock of falling from a height of 50 cm, with the watch inclined at an angle of 45°, thus unequivocally exposing this component to shocks. The crown must maintain its water-resistance in spite of the repeated shocks it undergoes.
> 
> *RESISTANCE TEST OF THE DEVICE PROTECTING THE WINDING CROWN*
> This test is performed by carrying out a series of 5,000 opening and closing cycles of the lever of the device protecting the winding crown.
> 
> *AGEING TEST OF THE CHRONO PUSH-PIECE*
> This test is performed by carrying out a series of 3,000 cycles on the push-piece for the chronograph function, which correspond to 1 year of intensive use.
> 
> *WEAR RESISTANCE TEST*
> This test is carried out by a series of cycles in which the crown is rotated in both directions (3,000 cycles) with a perpendicular force of 5N.
> 
> Information on Panerai's internal quality certification is included in the
> *Certificates Booklet* supplied with the watches with in-house movements.
> The Certificates Booklet includes:
> the watch ID
> the international guarantee certificate
> the international guarantee terms
> the limited warranty terms
> the international repair guarantee terms
> *the rate controls and CTMP test* (Contrôle technique des montres Panerai)
> the details of the tests carried out on the other components of the watch


p.s. taken from someone's 312 (P.9000) documentation.


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Thanks guys, I know about the CTMP, not sure I understood it completely and not sure if all movements are going through that full set of tests.
If you have personal experience with your Panerai in house movement please share it, how accurate it is according to your measurements? did you ever needed service and how was your service experience? 
That's what I want to hear please, I'm quite convinced about Panerai quality just looking for some personal testimonial.


----------



## captainh0wdy

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

I've had eta and in house based Panerai watches, I can only say that if they were airplane engines, I would be far happier to get on the plane using an eta engine.


----------



## Synequano

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Well,I have several Pams,I have had problem with two,both are ETA based,one is because of my own clumsiness,but the other one is weird,basically the watch was dead and the rotor kinda swung really free
Of all my in house,so far I have not had any problem..but I do expect P900x to have smoother rotor wind,my Seiko 8L35 have smoother wind in comparison to 3 of my P900x watches

As for accuracy,I don't really notice the +/- fluctuations


----------



## Travelller

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



Synequano said:


> ...As for accuracy,I don't really notice the +/- fluctuations


My one & only PAM has been running non-stop for 13mths now. For the first 10 mths, it ran within CMTP specs in all positions. For no apparent reason it sped up - in all positions, with best-case position running +8s and worst-case +20. I can only assume things change over time... but it's too early to send it off to OP...


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



Travelller said:


> with best-case position running +8s and worst-case +20


Really! you mean per day or ?


----------



## Travelller

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



ytil said:


> Really! you mean per day or ?


Yep... :-( The first 10mths though I never had to reset the time, only had to select the right position overnight to maintain +/- 2s/day... |>


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



Travelller said:


> Yep... :-( The first 10mths though I never had to reset the time, only had to select the right position overnight to maintain +/- 2s/day... |>


OK thanks, so first 10mth worked great and after that jumping to +8 to +20 sec per day. Interesting, what was the model?


----------



## Synequano

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Travelller has pam 233 as shown on his siggy

That's one of the problem with in house movement..if the movement gone bad,you need to send it back to Pam for re-regulation,the waiting time is quite long too

Travelller,by any chance has the watch been exposed to strong magnet? I also heard about P2002 gone erratic as the PR gone down to around 1 or 2 days (heard from someone with 368 though..not 233)


----------



## Travelller

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



Synequano said:


> Travelller,by any chance has the watch been exposed to strong magnet? I also heard about P2002 gone erratic as the PR gone down to around 1 or 2 days...


No, I can't recall ever coming close to any magnet and I've never dropped the watch, never knocked it against anything, etc. The mvmt was accurate throughout the entire usable PR range (using the PR indicator, never letting it get lower than the lowest marker).

AFAIK it has a two-year guarantee in EU so I'll send it off to OP in a few months or so.


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

While we are discussing the Panerai movements I saw this article from today,

Making a Move: How Panerai Became a Manufacture

Not a great knowledge but a nice marketing article.

Wandering over the net to look for more people with personal experience with the 
in house movements and their performance in terms of accuracy and reliability,
I must say I can't really find so many but in my own limited statistic the picture is 
not flattering the brand.:think:


----------



## Synequano

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Well,from the article its obvious that all Pam's in house movts are rush job..now I'm getting curious about the accuracy of my P900x

Just spoke on the phone with one of my customer who happen to be an 8 days maniac (what else you call a person with 190,233,339,341,368 and 203 in his collection...) he said his most accurate 8 days is 190,once he sent his 339 back to Panerai because it gained around a minute a day.....quite messed up for a watch in that price range..now I'm curious to see the accuracy figure of his 203,after all..you don't see this kind of watch often....


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

I agree with you, please share with us your findings...


----------



## korneevy

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

I only owned one Pam with in house movement (Pam 312), which I sold a few months later as I couldn't bear wearing a 1950 case. While I had it, it was just as good as my ETA modes (of which I've owned at least 6 over past 10 years). I liked the feeling of P9000, felt like much better in terms of winding or rotor noise, both are are horrible on Valjoux. I don't obsess about anything less than say 20 sec gain or loss so I didn't notice whether it was outside or inside of its specs, honesty who cares, especially if you wear in rotation. Well at least I don't. Now, my other manufacture is JLC, with chrono function..which I totally love, this is where I can def tell it is a pure manufacture, winding is heavenly, rotor noise is non existent and running sound is so quiet you wonder if it is even running at all. Chrono start, stop and return buttons are butter like and very precise. If I had to compare with P9000, it feel better executed but it is all subjective.


----------



## Synequano

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Well,when it comes to smoothness of rotor,Pam won't win any medals,despite my Pam collection,the smoothest auto watch that I have are the Rolexes,particularly the old 16570 exp 2 with T<25 on the dial
The smoothest winding Pam that I have held is 184 with JLC movt followed by 23A that is using ETA 2893..even my recently acquired 123 with 7750 have smoother rotor swing than 441 with P9001 movt

I have never had a JLC before,but judging from the movement found in 184,the winding is smooth,and the timing is quite accurate (around +4 to +5 a day over the course of a week..worn mostly on left hand,crown up if stored for the night)

Recently I had a chance to play around with Soprod-based Pam 28A for only a few minutes,the rotor wind felt smoother than regular 7750 (did not have my 441 with me when I held the 28 so no comparison,but it is only a bit noisier than Seiko 8L35 inside my emperor tuna),makes me wonder,if the older third party movts are better than the new in-house ones?

Earlier I was checking my FB and came across the post by Roger Lum in Paneristi..his 270 died after less than a month back from service..in puristpro I read about 335 without WR and loose screw (this one is pretty old..) these kind of things make me afraid to make a jump to Panerai (supposedly) better (and more expensive..) in house movt (P200x)


----------



## Travelller

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



ytil said:


> ... Making a Move: How Panerai Became a Manufacture
> ...but in my own limited statistic the picture is not flattering the brand...


Thanks for the link |> - I like the article! What is your "limited statistic"? You know the general rule, there are always more negative posts than positive on the Internet... . Hell, during those 10mths were my 233 was rock solid I did take the time to mention it in several posts. It was at the time my most accurate watch by far... b-)


Synequano said:


> Well,from the article its obvious that all Pam's in house movts are rush job...


I don't know if I agree with that... not that I have the necessary experience in the industry to define what is a reliable period for R&D and movement development... :think:

What was clear to me before reading the article was the fact that OP had almost immediate access to Richemont's "Group" resources - more specifically, Valfleurier. The P.999, a movement omitted from the article, is thought to be the roughly the same as used by Blancpain for one of their models. It's also probably the only mvmt that isn't based on the 2002 in some way or other. The article mentions that all the similar movements share 60% of the base movement. The P.2002 took five years - by Valfleurier - to make it to production. I do not know that this is such a short time when one considers the experience of Valfleurier within the Richemont group. Granted the 3135 in my Sea Dweller has been in production since 1978 - quite a bit more than the seven production years of my 233's P.2002. Lastly, even older houses aren't beyond fault; consider Omega's headaches with the first iteration of Planet Ocean movement (I believe it was the first generations of their 2500, eventually succeeded by the 8500).

Despite my P.2002 no longer having it's amazing accuracy, I have no concerns about the movement as a whole. The only case I could make against the P.2002 (or any other in-house) is the higher costs for even the most rudimentary of services... but I knew this when I went to buy it... ;-)


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



Travelller said:


> What is your "limited statistic"?


Well, of course, this is my own private statistic, it is limited because I didn't really perform any scientific representing sample of data and
yes I know that the criticism voices are loader than the flattering ones. Taking all into account I would expect for more from Panerai.

As for the reliable time for R&D I think we should count the production and the "in the market time" together with the R&D time because it's a 
learning curve during the years. After you launch a new movement the R&D continue to improve it according to service log and customer 
experience in real life and than issuing modified versions. Panerai has a very short time and capacity for this cycle compared to ETA and many 
other in the industry.
So, in my opinion it is good and important to hear and collect other Panerai owners descriptions of their experience.


----------



## korneevy

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



ytil said:


> Well, of course, this is my own private statistic, it is limited because I didn't really perform any scientific representing sample of data and
> yes I know that the criticism voices are loader than the flattering ones. Taking all into account I would expect for more from Panerai.
> 
> As for the reliable time for R&D I think we should count the production and the "in the market time" together with the R&D time because it's a
> learning curve during the years. After you launch a new movement the R&D continue to improve it according to service log and customer
> experience in real life and than issuing modified versions. Panerai has a very short time and capacity for this cycle compared to ETA and many
> other in the industry.
> So, in my opinion it is good and important to hear and collect other Panerai owners descriptions of their experience.


PAM makes some 70,000 watches a year, probably around 15,000 are with in-house movement. You got 3 responses and in all fairness, I doubt you will know more than 3-4 people in real life who have manufacture-driven PAMs. So you will be making your conclusion on a sample of, say, 10 people out of 15,000 owners annually? You really think that hearing one or more voicing their opinion is going to be at all representative or provide decision-making material for you? Really? This is close to 0.06% of annual volume and how it can possibly be a decisive factor? Just get one if you can afford it!


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



korneevy said:


> PAM makes some 70,000 watches a year, probably around 15,000 are with in-house movement. You got 3 responses and in all fairness, I doubt you will know more than 3-4 people in real life who have manufacture-driven PAMs. So you will be making your conclusion on a sample of, say, 10 people out of 15,000 owners annually? You really think that hearing one or more voicing their opinion is going to be at all representative or provide decision-making material for you? Really? This is close to 0.06% of annual volume and how it can possibly be a decisive factor? Just get one if you can afford it!


I understand your point korneevy but yes, this is life!
If you consider a new Ipad will you read reviews on the net? If you buy a new Pannasonic TV 50" will you read reviews?
So, you may find some more reviews on the ones I've mentioned, say about 100 more or less but there are much more than 70,000 pieces of each by far,
is this not a good idea to make decision? OK, not scientific but surly good. We like to read reviews and get impression and this is the only way to do that,
it will not be the only factor in my own formula and I guess yours or others as well, each one will decide for himself how to weigh it in. 
I can keep on doing the math if you want and even show you that 10-20 opinions for Panerai may be equal or better than 100-200 for an Ipad for example.

It is a good idea, it is a factor in the decision making formula but subjective.

BTW, I'm not waiting endlessly and actually pretty cooked by now, negotiation with my AD are in progress towards the first 321 to my collection ;-).


----------



## Travelller

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



ytil said:


> ...negotiation with my AD are in progress towards the first 321...


Well-well, looks like you're going to take a walk on the wild side with a P.9000... ;-) You will be then in the best position to add to the "statistics" for the good of all past, present & future Paneristi :-!


----------



## ytil

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

Days will tell.. 
p.9002 :roll:


----------



## powerband

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



bigmac3161 said:


> What u mean little watch making elves didn't make my 243 :-(


Only if your watch's serial number puts the build-date between December 1st and December 24th. 
Otherwise it was built by the Oompa Loompas (they are known for their impeccable craftsmanship).


----------



## roguehog

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*

In terms of rotor noise, I agree the p9000 is probably the noisiest. Not one of my favoirites. I can live with the valjoux wobble as I regard it as a defining characteristic of the movement.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Genebe

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



korneevy said:


> I only owned one Pam with in house movement (Pam 312), which I sold a few months later as I couldn't bear wearing a 1950 case.


Don't mean to take this thread off topic, but what was wrong with the 1950 case? Is it uncomfortable? I'm curious because I had been kinda keeping my eye open for something with that case.


----------



## korneevy

*Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



Genebe said:


> Don't mean to take this thread off topic, but what was wrong with the 1950 case? Is it uncomfortable? I'm curious because I had been kinda keeping my eye open for something with that case.


Everyone's different and whole I am a pretty big guy, my wrist does not like the shape of 1950 cases in 44mm, feels like a tall poached egg in my hand and lugs cut into the wrist edges too much. 47mm cases felt a lot better when I tried a few of them at AD but in all honesty I feel it is a cartoonish size for any man to wear, regardless of their height or build. It is also a world of difference in terms of trying for a few mins vs wearing for a few days, and my experiment with 1950 case in 44mm was bad enough to stop further explorations. I like my liminor case just fine and haven't looked back since getting rid if the 1950 watch.


----------



## iam7head

*Re: Panerai Movements - In house or 3rd party (ETA)*



Synequano said:


> Well,when it comes to smoothness of rotor,Pam won't win any medals,despite my Pam collection,the smoothest auto watch that I have are the Rolexes,particularly the old 16570 exp 2 with T<25 on the dial
> The smoothest winding Pam that I have held is 184 with JLC movt followed by 23A that is using ETA 2893..even my recently acquired 123 with 7750 have smoother rotor swing than 441 with P9001 movt
> 
> I have never had a JLC before,but judging from the movement found in 184,the winding is smooth,and the timing is quite accurate (around +4 to +5 a day over the course of a week..worn mostly on left hand,crown up if stored for the night)
> 
> Recently I had a chance to play around with Soprod-based Pam 28A for only a few minutes,the rotor wind felt smoother than regular 7750 (did not have my 441 with me when I held the 28 so no comparison,but it is only a bit noisier than Seiko 8L35 inside my emperor tuna),makes me wonder,if the older third party movts are better than the new in-house ones?
> 
> Earlier I was checking my FB and came across the post by Roger Lum in Paneristi..his 270 died after less than a month back from service..in puristpro I read about 335 without WR and loose screw (this one is pretty old..) these kind of things make me afraid to make a jump to Panerai (supposedly) better (and more expensive..) in house movt (P200x)


Well, they only start making in-house movement since not too long ago, vs many decade old 7750 and 6497 with progressive updates.

The grinding and smoothness of the rotor have everything to do with the design of the gear train of the autowinding mechanism, the 7750 for example is very noisy but it's quite effective even tho' it's a unidirectional winding.

The smoothness of the rolex sleeve bearing rotor have something to do with the high torque gear ratio(correct me if I am mistaken), mine is 18 years old and still butter smooth 

You can say it is a characteristic or engineering blemish but at the end of the day if it does it job, that's what it count, right?


----------

