# Citizen Chronomaster vs 9F Grand Seiko



## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

Hello everyone!

I've been a citizen(pun intended) in the world of watches now for some years and feel like it's time I treat myself to a high quality quartz!

Originally I was set on the Grand Seiko SBGX259 or 269, and hadn't even considered buying a Citizen watch ever. Well, that didn't last long after seeing some pictures and articles posted of the Citizen AQ4020-54Y. The Deployant review(https://deployant.com/review-enter-...n-aq-4020-54y-best-quartz-watch-in-the-world/) in particular left me amazed and ready to spend.

Even though the Chronomaster got everything I'm looking for, I'd like to hear your thoughts before pulling the trigger as I'm certain I'm blinded by love.

Are there any other HAQs I should consider? Does the SBGX259 surpass the Chronomaster in any areas I've overlooked?

I'm aware the Citizen doesn't keep the promised +/- 5 SPY for many owners, but that doesn't bother me.

Thank you in advance! Looking forward to reading your input.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Have you done any searches in this forum, as we have had Citizen vs GS threads before?


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## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

ronalddheld said:


> Have you done any searches in this forum, as we have had Citizen vs GS threads before?


I have, and found the majority of them to be a couple years old at least. I may have overlooked some threads. Thanks for the heads up, I'll look around!


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## Budman2k (Nov 19, 2019)

I love everything about that Citizen Chronomaster! I think the design is absolutely stunning. And while the Grand Seiko line is known for the exquisite craftsmanship and VHP movement it looks to me like the Citizen is right on par. I'd also take a look a t the Longines Conquest VHP line. A LOT more price friendly and another one worth considering. If price were no object I'd have to go with the Citizen.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

Budman2k said:


> I love everything about that Citizen Chronomaster! I think the design is absolutely stunning. And while the Grand Seiko line is known for the exquisite craftsmanship and VHP movement it looks to me like the Citizen is right on par. I'd also take a look a t the Longines Conquest VHP line. A LOT more price friendly and another one worth considering. If price were no object I'd have to go with the Citizen.


The Longines VHP doesn't compare. I own one and enjoy it for what it is, but it is a chunky, uneven and unrefined design. I love the GS 9f models and am thoroughly intrigued by the Chronomaster. I won't buy one without handling it first because I have a sneaking feeling the dial might let me down a bit, but overall the whole washi paper design is by far the most creative of all the HAQs in my opinion. Overall though, GS's catalogue is deeper and offers more variety. Divers, GMTs, antimagnetics, no-dates, lumed sports watches, and more. I love the sbgv models, especially the 44gs case variants. The Chronomaster might have the best dial, but GS certainly has the best case(s).


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

Having owned both The Citizen and a couple of Grand Seikos, my bias is towards GS. Now that GS have introduced IAHH on their latest 9F variant, there's not much that would tempt me back to Citizen. Except, perhaps, an affordable derivative of the 0100...


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## SamRHughes (Nov 6, 2017)

The Citizens all seem really chilly to me. But the Seikos, they don't really feel that way. (I am wearing a CTQ57 right now, so it's not a criticism, but the watch really does have an icy demeanor about it, and I think the same would be true of the AQ4020. They just feel lifeless to me. Kind of like the way Credor watches do.)

I have a WatchRecon notice on it and I haven't seen too many Chronomasters listed over the past year. So it seems to me that many of the buyers are happy with their purchase.

(Compare that with the Seiko SBCJ201 or SBGA211, which seems to get a lot of listings, but they probably also get more purchases.)


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## mpalmer (Dec 30, 2011)

Based on the photos, the Chronomaster looks better to my eye. That’s the way I’d lean.


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## tmt (Jul 4, 2008)

nengenes said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I've been a citizen(pun intended) in the world of watches now for some years and feel like it's time I treat myself to a high quality quartz!
> 
> ...


Both are very cool watches. A very cool complication The Citizen has is a perpetual calendar.
As I just got mine a month ago, I'm itching to watch the change from not only leap year, but directly from 29 feb to 1 march, at midnight b-)
It also has the Eco-drive calibre A60 which will let you forget battery changes.
The finish has already gotten friends and colleagues at work checking it out, even though I gather the GS has an even better finish.


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## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

SamRHughes said:


> The Citizens all seem really chilly to me. But the Seikos, they don't really feel that way. (I am wearing a CTQ57 right now, so it's not a criticism, but the watch really does have an icy demeanor about it, and I think the same would be true of the AQ4020. They just feel lifeless to me. Kind of like the way Credor watches do.)
> 
> I have a WatchRecon notice on it and I haven't seen too many Chronomasters listed over the past year. So it seems to me that many of the buyers are happy with their purchase.
> 
> (Compare that with the Seiko SBCJ201 or SBGA211, which seems to get a lot of listings, but they probably also get more purchases.)


That's really interesting, I wonder why that is. Do you feel like it's a quality thing or more just design?


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## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

tmt said:


> nengenes said:
> 
> 
> > Hello everyone!
> ...


For sure! The features you listed are some of the reasons I'm absolutely captivated by this watch. Loving how the seconds hand is used for showing power reserve and year. Man, I have no choice, I must order it. Where did you buy it from? I'm considering Seiya, thewatchcompany and Higuchi at the moment.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

nengenes said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I've been a citizen(pun intended) in the world of watches now for some years and feel like it's time I treat myself to a high quality quartz!
> 
> ...


I have owned quite a few of Grand Seikos quartz offerings. SBGX 061, 063, 065 and SBGV 009, 019g, 223, 229, 025. And I have owned the AQ4020-54Y as well. You are choosing between a titanium eco-drive HAQ and a steel battery quartz HAQ. I would say that GS generally have a higher finish when looking under a loupe but not to the naked eye. What do you value more, finish or performance? All of my GS´s performed around +2s when changing DST, but you need to set the date 5 times a year and change battery every 2-3 years. Whith The Citizen you don´t. I only have Chronomasters with A660 at this time, but I am thinking of adding a A060 again when I find the right one...
GS= extra nice finish and classic look. Entry level, Datejust killer, very versitile looks but needs som attending to. Will probably keep good time even when not worn. 9f wich is tested an proved but 25 years old...
Citizen =nice finish and cool materials. Very unique dial and with titanium case and bracelet. Eco-drive with some cool features (power reserve, perpetual calendar, reset of hands) and a modern movement. I think it comes down to what you value, but I would go Chronomaster over any SBGX


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Sakurawatches.com have it in stock...


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## trott3r (Jun 26, 2013)

casio s100 atomic clock

chronomaster a4030:


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## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

Barbababa said:


> I have owned quite a few of Grand Seikos quartz offerings. SBGX 061, 063, 065 and SBGV 009, 019g, 223, 229, 025. And I have owned the AQ4020-54Y as well. You are choosing between a titanium eco-drive HAQ and a steel battery quartz HAQ. I would say that GS generally have a higher finish when looking under a loupe but not to the naked eye. What do you value more, finish or performance? All of my GS´s performed around +2s when changing DST, but you need to set the date 5 times a year and change battery every 2-3 years. Whith The Citizen you don´t. I only have Chronomasters with A660 at this time, but I am thinking of adding a A060 again when I find the right one...
> GS= extra nice finish and classic look. Entry level, Datejust killer, very versitile looks but needs som attending to. Will probably keep good time even when not worn. 9f wich is tested an proved but 25 years old...
> Citizen =nice finish and cool materials. Very unique dial and with titanium case and bracelet. Eco-drive with some cool features (power reserve, perpetual calendar, reset of hands) and a modern movement. I think it comes down to what you value, but I would go Chronomaster over any SBGX


Very good points! The Chronomaster is definitely winning for me aswell. I think I would be very pleased with a SBGX259 aswell, but the thought of it doesn't excited me nearly as much as the Chronomaster does.

Thank you for the response!


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## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

Barbababa said:


> Sakurawatches.com have it in stock...


They do indeed! Do you have any experience with them?


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## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

trott3r said:


> View attachment 14896503
> 
> 
> casio s100 atomic clock
> ...


Very nice alternatives! I considered the AQ4030, but the size of the 4020 is more my thing.

Thank you!


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

nengenes said:


> They do indeed! Do you have any experience with them?


Yes. I have bought two watches from them with good experience with both delivery time and comunication


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## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

Barbababa said:


> nengenes said:
> 
> 
> > They do indeed! Do you have any experience with them?
> ...


Awesome, thank you! Sounds like a better option than Seiya or Higuchi then as the price is lower. Thanks!


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## tmt (Jul 4, 2008)

nengenes said:


> For sure! The features you listed are some of the reasons I'm absolutely captivated by this watch. Loving how the seconds hand is used for showing power reserve and year. Man, I have no choice, I must order it. Where did you buy it from? I'm considering Seiya, thewatchcompany and Higuchi at the moment.


I bought it locally in Sweden, but it was originally bought in Japan. The dealer stamp is in Japanese so... I can't really tell which shop :-d
Go with @Barbababa suggestion, he's in the know :-!


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## Dania (Oct 28, 2019)

The difference that I noticed is titanium vs stainless steel. The Citizen is much lighter which you may or not prefer. The Citizen titanium seems to be more scratch resistant than my stainless steel Grand Seiko.


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## nengenes (Feb 22, 2020)

Thanks for all the responses, they are much appreciated.

This morning I purchased the Chronomaster from Higuchi, can’t wait for it to arrive!


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## Budman2k (Nov 19, 2019)

nengenes said:


> Thanks for all the responses, they are much appreciated.
> 
> This morning I purchased the Chronomaster from Higuchi, can't wait for it to arrive!


We'll be looking forward to pictures and your impression when it arrives. Congrats!!


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## ocieb (Oct 20, 2016)

thanks for the thread. citizens just don't quite do it for me looks-wise. i wish they did because they make some awesome watches


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## Josh R. (Dec 30, 2012)

For those who have owned/handled both: (1) how is the polished case finishing between the two (i.e., "GS Zaratsu" vs. "Citizen however they polish the Chronomaster"); and (2) are the Chronomaster's indices and hands finished as well as GS, and do they catch the light in the same way. 

I am especially curious about question #2. I have a GS SBGV225 and the polished hands and indices reflect light in a truly beautiful way.


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

Josh R. said:


> For those who have owned/handled both: (1) how is the polished case finishing between the two (i.e., "GS Zaratsu" vs. "Citizen however they polish the Chronomaster"); and (2) are the Chronomaster's indices and hands finished as well as GS, and do they catch the light in the same way.
> 
> I am especially curious about question #2. I have a GS SBGV225 and the polished hands and indices reflect light in a truly beautiful way.


I believe the overall effect may vary from model to model and whilst I have owned two GSs (with two examples of each) I have owned only one Citizen so my sample size is small. I did have that Citizen re-cased, once, but this doesn't increase the sample size as it was a straight like-for-like swap.

My GSs were two SBGV009s and two SBGA105s. My Citizen was an AQ1000-58B.

The polishing and overall finishing of the GSs was noticeably better than on the Citizen. The Citizen was competently finished but when put side by side with a GS, it always made me feel bitterly disappointed in the Citizen.


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## SamRHughes (Nov 6, 2017)

nengenes said:


> That's really interesting, I wonder why that is. Do you feel like it's a quality thing or more just design?


Design. I mean, it implies the presence of quality for it to be the way it is; you can compare the Casio MTP-1183E-7A to the CTQ57-0934, for instance, and see what happens if you take the quality down a few notches on the same general theme. It's just bland, by comparison. (By the way, that Casio is a good choice if you want to preview the AQ4020 case shape.)

If you wear the CTQ57-0934 on a black silicone or canvas band for a while, it gets to be a bit of a boring and sterile watch, but then when you put it back on the croc strap it ships on, the whole design suddenly really makes sense. The watch is best (perhaps) on either a black croc strap for it to work as designed, or a white silicone band for a lesbianic sporty appearance.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Josh R. said:


> For those who have owned/handled both: (1) how is the polished case finishing between the two (i.e., "GS Zaratsu" vs. "Citizen however they polish the Chronomaster"); and (2) are the Chronomaster's indices and hands finished as well as GS, and do they catch the light in the same way.
> 
> I am especially curious about question #2. I have a GS SBGV225 and the polished hands and indices reflect light in a truly beautiful way.


1. I belive they are polished using the same technique on the case, so they are equal. 2. The hands and indices are a little better on GS, especially under a magnifier, but funktion wise and to the naked eye they are very equal. GS use differnt technique on the indices depending on the dial. Light dial = all polished, Dark dial = polished and brushed. And Citizen do the same. A polished surface have the ability to reflekt both light and shadows giving a better contrast on a light dial. Brushed surfaces tend to only reflekt light and appear lighter, therefor better suited to a dark dial


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

here I have the sbgv025 vs sbgv229 with brushed/polished on dark dial and all polished on light dial. sbgx061






and AB9000-61E


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## Angler (Aug 14, 2019)

I'm fairly new to this forum and had never considered Citizen to be a "High end" watch manufacturer. My opinion has changed from this discussion. I had been looking for a nice Grand Seiko but will take a pause to research what Citizen has to offer.


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## Jezza (Aug 4, 2010)

I only have the 9F so far, in a SBGX263. I plan to add a Chronomaster in the near future. I don’t see the battery as a real discriminator. As a practical matter, one needs to send in the watch to have the seals replaced every 5 years or so anyway depending on use.


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## tomchicago (Feb 15, 2010)

I agree re: solar vs battery. I am down to only one solar watch now. You should inspect gaskets every couple years-- silicone 'em, etc-- but the thing I most dislike about solar is if the watch is not your daily beater then you're obligated to storing it near a window or in a closet with some Rube Goldberg light source setup. You can't just put it in the storage case, close the lid and forget it for months without at least diminishing functionality. With a battery you're good to go.



Jezza said:


> I only have the 9F so far, in a SBGX263. I plan to add a Chronomaster in the near future. I don't see the battery as a real discriminator. As a practical matter, one needs to send in the watch to have the seals replaced every 5 years or so anyway depending on use.


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## Angler (Aug 14, 2019)

I've been looking at some threads concerning the Duratect finish on the Citizen Titanium. It's supposed to make it less prone to scratches and is tougher than Seiko. Does anyone know if that is true? I prefer titanium and want a watch to hold up over time. But, based on the pricing of an old Rolex Submariner...a watch is supposed to look as bad as possible after decade or two.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

I would say yes, it´s harder than Seikos equivalent. That does not mean it can´t scratch though. And if you want to remove the scratches it´s a small hell. But don´t let that put you off, wear it with normal caution and it will look like new for years to come


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## Josh R. (Dec 30, 2012)

Although there are different degrees of Duratect, the "lowest grade" is 5-7 times harder than stainless steel. One of my co-workers has a 10-year old Citizen Duratect watch, and it still looks great.

There's lots of information on these forums about the properties of Duratect. K. Seiya also has a nice hardness comparison chart posted on his blog. Here it is:


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## tomchicago (Feb 15, 2010)

Sapphire crystals still scratch. So does any titanium.



Josh R. said:


> Although there are different degrees of Duratect, the "lowest grade" is 5-7 times harder than stainless steel. One of my co-workers has a 10-year old Citizen Duratect watch, and it still looks great.
> 
> There's lots of information on these forums about the properties of Duratect. K. Seiya also has a nice hardness comparison chart posted on his blog. Here it is:


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## Jezza (Aug 4, 2010)

It’s a mixed bag when it comes to hardened finishes. Citizen’s proprietary titanium and surface treatment can take a beating, but they will scratch. And, those scratches will accumulate over time. The question becomes whether the watch can be re-finished. After all, at the price of these watches, one would hope to have a timepiece that can be serviced and used for years to come as opposed to disposable.

The nice thing about stainless steel, or even grade 5 titanium, is that they can be refinished periodically. I’m not sure about watches with these hardened surface treatments.


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## mythless (Feb 21, 2016)

Jezza said:


> It's a mixed bag when it comes to hardened finishes. Citizen's proprietary titanium and surface treatment can take a beating, but they will scratch. And, those scratches will accumulate over time. The question becomes whether the watch can be re-finished. After all, at the price of these watches, one would hope to have a timepiece that can be serviced and used for years to come as opposed to disposable.
> 
> The nice thing about stainless steel, or even grade 5 titanium, is that they can be refinished periodically. I'm not sure about watches with these hardened surface treatments.


From what I know and seen from Seiko Dia-Shield and Casio version is small scratches can be buffed out with a bit of care. However, for the diashield, I've seen the coating crack off a Shogun. And, from what I've read if you want the watch refinished, Seiko did say the diashield coating will be removed and not be reapplied. My suspect is that Citizen will be something similar unless someone is willing to email them.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

mythless said:


> From what I know and seen from Seiko Dia-Shield and Casio version is small scratches can be buffed out with a bit of care. However, for the diashield, I've seen the coating crack off a Shogun. And, from what I've read if you want the watch refinished, Seiko did say the diashield coating will be removed and not be reapplied. My suspect is that Citizen will be something similar unless someone is willing to email them.


I am not sure, but I heard from a friend in Tokyo that said that his friend (I know, a friend of a friend...)was rejected by Citizen and got the watch polished some were else. And that guy said it was a real pain removing the Duratect before polishing, so he would not do it again . But I have heard others say that Citizen can polish the watch but will not coat it again afterwards. But to be honest, how many of you that think this is a issue have left any watches for polishing? Most people say they prefer the watch unpolished and would not buy a polished watch second hand.


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## Tom2517 (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't own either, but if I were to buy I definitely go for Citizen first. For me changing battery is a deal breaker, I don't like to send my watch in unless it stops running or doesn't keep time, with GS I would need to send it in every three years, that's a no no.


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom2517 said:


> I don't own either, but if I were to buy I definitely go for Citizen first. For me changing battery is a deal breaker, I don't like to send my watch in unless it stops running or doesn't keep time, with GS I would need to send it in every three years, that's a no no.


I happily changed my own GS battery. I don't see what the issue is. I actually trust myself to take great care over my watch more than I do a stranger processing dozens of battery changes. Citizen messed up my case when they worked on my watch. Really big scratches in the case back. Never happens when I do it myself.


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## Tom2517 (Jun 18, 2012)

Tom-HK said:


> I happily changed my own GS battery. I don't see what the issue is. I actually trust myself to take great care over my watch more than I do a stranger processing dozens of battery changes. Citizen messed up my case when they worked on my watch. Really big scratches in the case back. Never happens when I do it myself.


Good for you that you change your own battery. What happened to your Citizen is precisely why I don't like send watches in. At least with eco drive I don't really have to send the watch in, in theory.


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## JoeKing (Dec 4, 2014)

Those Citizen watches are way too small. 37.5 MM, ya too small. GS for me, plus not afraid to change the battery in a watch.


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## Mason Delpino (Mar 3, 2015)

Angler said:


> I'm fairly new to this forum and had never considered Citizen to be a "High end" watch manufacturer. My opinion has changed from this discussion. I had been looking for a nice Grand Seiko but will take a pause to research what Citizen has to offer.


People often don't think of them as a high-end watch manufacturer, but they put out some great watches! Check out the caliber 0100, it's the world's most accurate solar wristwatch at +/- 1 second per year.


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## Mason Delpino (Mar 3, 2015)

Barbababa said:


> mythless said:
> 
> 
> > From what I know and seen from Seiko Dia-Shield and Casio version is small scratches can be buffed out with a bit of care. However, for the diashield, I've seen the coating crack off a Shogun. And, from what I've read if you want the watch refinished, Seiko did say the diashield coating will be removed and not be reapplied. My suspect is that Citizen will be something similar unless someone is willing to email them.
> ...


Yes, I had the same experience- I purchased a watch new at the Citizen Boutique in NYC, and it had some light scratching on the case. I saw a speck under the crystal (a hair, to be precise) and sent it in for free servicing under warranty (why not, right?). I also asked if they could polish the case to remove scratches (why not try for it, you know?) and was told that they don't polish, they just replace parts 😂


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

They don't polish the cases because of the Dura-Tec coating. A local watch maker tried to polish out some scratches in mine; made a real mess. Only option was to get a new case.


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## HEQAdmirer (Mar 31, 2016)

Toss Up, in my opinion re: GS vs. Citizen. The new, very expensive Citizen Quartz that runs =/- 1 second per YEAR would be fantastic!


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

In the spirit of the headline of the thread...(and not to start a new separate one) We can read about the philosphy of Grand Seiko, now selebrating 60 years. From Grand Seikos webpage _" It was the determination to excel that brought about the birth of Grand Seiko in 1960. During its development and ever since, the idea that drove the designers and engineers was that Grand Seiko should be the 'ideal' watch with standards of precision, durability and beauty that would lead the world." _The Citizen going on 25 yars. But nowere is a explanation or discussion of why they felt compelled to start these premium lines in the first place, and why they are domestic (obviously not GS aany more).
I have my theory, and I think it´s a reflection worth having to understand these premium lines in a better way. Have you ever given it any thought?


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## DaveM (Aug 9, 2008)

*Barbababa quoted the GrandSeiko launch-doctrine :- *
It was the determination to excel that brought about the birth of Grand Seiko in 1960.
During its development and ever since, the idea that drove the designers and engineers was that Grand Seiko should be the 'ideal' watch
with standards of precision, durability and beauty that would lead the world.

*Only GS Special editions*
-Are accurate to 1spy
*Most GS*
-Have a calendar which is not perpetual
-Do not have IAHH
*All GS*
-Need a frequent battery change

I think that in this century GrandSeiko (unlike Citizen) have virtually ceased innovation of their HAQ watches (unless you include SpringDrive).
But they have continued to deliver quality, durability and beauty.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

DaveM said:


> I think that in this century GrandSeiko (unlike Citizen) have virtually ceased innovation of their HAQ watches (unless you include SpringDrive).
> But they have continued to deliver quality, durability and beauty.


Probably, but I'd rather they find ways to diversify 9f models as they have been by introducing the GMTs, divers, antimagnetics, brushed sports models, and of course their sbgv/sbgx DJ-killer staples. I'm okay with what is inside (especially now that they FINALLY added the independent hour hand), so I'd like them to continue to switch up the packaging and expand the lineup. 
Citizen really needs to offer more models before I'd ever consider them as a real contender with GS outside of watch nerd circles (and also offer more than JDM models).


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## tomchicago (Feb 15, 2010)

Agreed GS have almost completely stopped innovating HAQ.


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

DaveM said:


> *Only GS Special editions*
> -Are accurate to 1spy


I've never heard of *ANY* GS that carries a 1 sec / year specification.

Can you point me to one of these special edition watches?

TIA


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

No one but the late Hoptroff watches talked about achieving 1s/y. For now caliber 0100 is it.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Maybe a zero fell out while typing?  But I agree with the stagnation of HAQ development from GS (a part from the new 9f85 with the 5spy star and hour hand adjustment) I think the perpetual calendar is a more useful feature than the hour hand...


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Citizen really needs to offer more models before I'd ever consider them as a real contender with GS outside of watch nerd circles (and also offer more than JDM models).


That brings me back to my earlier question... Do we understand Citizen and the intention of The Citizen? And why it´s domestic?
I do not think, or want, Citizen to go down the same road that Grand Seiko is going. It would destroy the The Citizen line.

It´s my belief that Seiko created the Grand Seiko line back in 1960 to rise the status of the Seiko name in Japan and to offer an alternative to european brands in Japan. To make the Japanese consumer proud of their own heritage, and to wear a Japanese watch that was superior to anything coming from abroad. I would think Citizen had the same idea. "We sell our other watches all around the world, but Japanese people by luxury watches from other brands from other countries. Let´s give them the best of the best, made in Japan". So the need to sell "the best of the best made in Japan" outside of Japan will wash away the status of the line. I understand why many of us not living in Japan would like to see a nother direction for The Citizen just like GS, but I think it would be a mistake. The design and quality values are not the same outside of Japan. A small studio making the best of the best for a domestic market will surely suffer QC issues when trying to expand to satify demand from a europeen an us market, just like we can see from GS lately with the 9f GMT models from last year.


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## tomchicago (Feb 15, 2010)

Barbababa said:


> Maybe a zero fell out while typing?  But I agree with the stagnation of HAQ development from GS (a part from the new 9f85 with the 5spy star and hour hand adjustment) I think the perpetual calendar is a more useful feature than the hour hand...


If one mentions this in the Grand Seiko forum, it unleashes a rationalization storm which goes beyond the most infinitesimal semantics.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

Barbababa said:


> Mr.Jones82 said:
> 
> 
> > Citizen really needs to offer more models before I'd ever consider them as a real contender with GS outside of watch nerd circles (and also offer more than JDM models).
> ...


Interesting point of view, but it seems a bit flowery. If you were to ask a Citizen higher up why their "luxury" models are only offered in Japan, this is probably the answer you would get, but how about we grab our trusty Occam's Razor out of the drawer for a second. The reality is they are JDM because Citizen probably has an airplane hangar full of market research that says an overseas market for their "luxury" models does not exist. Same with GS for all those years. GS did not purposely remain JDM out of pride and to offer the citizens of Japan the priviledge of owning an exclusive product unavailable to thec rest of the world and neither is Citizen. If a door opens, they'll walk through it just as GS did and I am pretty sure there won't be dramatic speeches across boardroom tables about heritage, pride, and exclusivity but probably something more along the lines of profit and shareholders.

As for QC, I see what you mean, but that is assuming that growth is explosive rather than incremental. With incremental growth they can adjust and adapt, and yes probably with some QC issues, but not to the point you seem to be insinuating (the aging workforce is another conversation). 
I am curious if you think GSs efforts to go global have failed (I'm assuming you're fear of the GS trajectory has to be more principled because as a brand they've been wildly successful the last couple years, even entering the top 10 of the luxury market). I think one of the problems with internet is that everything becomes exaggerated and it makes anomalies seem common place. It is easy for people to say QC has gone down the proverbial toilet because GS's early years were primarily pre-internet, so there isn't much to go on in terms of experiences, so we are allowed to make our own narrative in a way. Has QC gone down? Probably, but that is the cost we as customers pay for that access. If I thought that QC issues had risen more than a very, very small percent then yes, I would agree a mistake was made, but I don't.

Obviously a lot of people mourn the loss of more affordable GSs and fear they will eventually get pushed out of GSs market, and I am one of them. To me, that would be the tragedy for Citizen and its fans more than anything else we have talked about.


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

Barbababa said:


> That brings me back to my earlier question... *Do we understand Citizen and the intention of The Citizen? And why it´s domestic?*
> I do not think, or want, Citizen to go down the same road that Grand Seiko is going. It would destroy the The Citizen line.
> 
> It´s my belief that Seiko created the Grand Seiko line back in 1960 to rise the status of the Seiko name in Japan and to offer an alternative to european brands in Japan. To make the Japanese consumer proud of their own heritage, and to wear a Japanese watch that was superior to anything coming from abroad. I would think Citizen had the same idea. "We sell our other watches all around the world, but Japanese people by luxury watches from other brands from other countries. Let´s give them the best of the best, made in Japan". *So the need to sell "the best of the best made in Japan" outside of Japan will wash away the status of the line.* I understand why many of us not living in Japan would like to see a nother direction for The Citizen just like GS, but I think it would be a mistake. The design and quality values are not the same outside of Japan. A small studio making the best of the best for a domestic market will surely suffer QC issues when trying to expand to satify demand from a europeen an us market, just like we can see from GS lately with the 9f GMT models from last year.


I preface my comment by stating that I admit that I am not well-informed on this topic and the following is only a guess:

Perhaps Citizen's ultra premium watches are Japanese market releases only because Citizen knows that they are not regarded as premium luxury brand in the rest of the world, and without a large marketing effort to raise the status of their brand, their associated higher priced product will tend not to sell all that well outside of their domestic market.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Interesting point of view, but it seems a bit flowery. If you were to ask a Citizen higher up why their "luxury" models are only offered in Japan, this is probably the answer you would get, but how about we grab our trusty Occam's Razor out of the drawer for a second. The reality is they are JDM because Citizen probably has an airplane hangar full of market research that says an overseas market for their "luxury" models does not exist. Same with GS for all those years. GS did not purposely remain JDM out of pride and to offer the citizens of Japan the priviledge of owning an exclusive product unavailable to thec rest of the world and neither is Citizen. If a door opens, they'll walk through it just as GS did and I am pretty sure there won't be dramatic speeches across boardroom tables about heritage, pride, and exclusivity but probably something more along the lines of profit and shareholders.
> 
> As for QC, I see what you mean, but that is assuming that growth is explosive rather than incremental. With incremental growth they can adjust and adapt, and yes probably with some QC issues, but not to the point you seem to be insinuating (the aging workforce is another conversation).
> I am curious if you think GSs efforts to go global have failed (I'm assuming you're fear of the GS trajectory has to be more principled because as a brand they've been wildly successful the last couple years, even entering the top 10 of the luxury market). I think one of the problems with internet is that everything becomes exaggerated and it makes anomalies seem common place. It is easy for people to say QC has gone down the proverbial toilet because GS's early years were primarily pre-internet, so there isn't much to go on in terms of experiences, so we are allowed to make our own narrative in a way. Has QC gone down? Probably, but that is the cost we as customers pay for that access. If I thought that QC issues had risen more than a very, very small percent then yes, I would agree a mistake was made, but I don't.
> ...


Ok, so you have not given the advent of the lines any greater historical reflection. What a brand represent to a company or a nation is not necessarily the same in Japan as the rest of the world. You like where GS are today and where they are going, I don´t. You want The Citizen line to go down the same road as GS, I don´t. The necessity to drop the SEIKO name of the brand should tell you something, but it don´t. Sorry. You are entitled to your oppinion and wishes, no problem


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

Barbababa said:


> Mr.Jones82 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting point of view, but it seems a bit flowery. If you were to ask a Citizen higher up why their "luxury" models are only offered in Japan, this is probably the answer you would get, but how about we grab our trusty Occam's Razor out of the drawer for a second. The reality is they are JDM because Citizen probably has an airplane hangar full of market research that says an overseas market for their "luxury" models does not exist. Same with GS for all those years. GS did not purposely remain JDM out of pride and to offer the citizens of Japan the priviledge of owning an exclusive product unavailable to thec rest of the world and neither is Citizen. If a door opens, they'll walk through it just as GS did and I am pretty sure there won't be dramatic speeches across boardroom tables about heritage, pride, and exclusivity but probably something more along the lines of profit and shareholders.
> ...


I agree, the Japanese possess a very unique culture and take a lot of pride in their accomplishments. Dan Carlin's quote about the Japanese being "just like everybody else, but more" is very fitting (he appropriated the quote actually from elsewhere). I love Japanese culture, especially the literature (haibun in particular) and have been there numerous times. I'm not discounting the history and their initial mission. I recognize the pride they take and have always found the Daini and Suwa competition of the past as an incredibly unique, interesting, and representative story of what GS is about, 
but I also generally take romantic remembrances of halcyon days with a shovel full of salt. Gotta love those ancient zaratsu sword polishers, right? Those same artisans have been reanimated to hand polish every single piece from what I hear. Hahaha 
The mythology surrounding GS is a bit over the top in my opinion. Yes, sure GS wanted to offer a JDM product that could compete with the Swiss and provide the Japanese with an alternative...which to me is just an euphemism for "there is hole in the market that we can fill." If you believe Citizen is holding back for some altruistic, Japan centric reason, go ahead.

Also, for the record I was only saying that I appreciated the access to GS and its global direction, not the overall direction. I have plenty of gripes about the direction they've chosen over the last 2-3 years, but I also understand they are operating in a highly competitive, eroding market. Would you have preferred them to take some principled stance and keep production down to a minimum and remain a JDM product as the company folds around them? Anyway, I appreciate the discussion.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> I agree, the Japanese possess a very unique culture and take a lot of pride in their accomplishments. Dan Carlin's quote about the Japanese being "just like everybody else, but more" is very fitting (he appropriated the quote actually from elsewhere). I love Japanese culture, especially the literature (haibun in particular) and have been there numerous times. I'm not discounting the history and their initial mission. I recognize the pride they take and have always found the Daini and Suwa competition of the past as an incredibly unique, interesting, and representative story of what GS is about,
> but I also generally take romantic remembrances of halcyon days with a shovel full of salt. Gotta love those ancient zaratsu sword polishers, right? Those same artisans have been reanimated to hand polish every single piece from what I hear. Hahaha
> *The mythology surrounding GS is a bit over the top in my opinion.* Yes, sure GS wanted to offer a JDM product that could compete with the Swiss and provide the Japanese with an alternative...which to me is just an euphemism for "there is hole in the market that we can fill." If you believe Citizen is holding back for some altruistic, Japan centric reason, go ahead.
> 
> Also, for the record I was only saying that I appreciated the access to GS and its global direction, not the overall direction. I have plenty of gripes about the direction they've chosen over the last 2-3 years, but I also understand they are operating in a highly competitive, eroding market. Would you have preferred them to take some principled stance and keep production down to a minimum and remain a JDM product as the company folds around them? Anyway, I appreciate the discussion.


I absolutly agree with the mythology part, even if that part mainly spins in countries outside of Japan ;-) . Seiko and Citizen sell plenty of watches around the world from their regular lines, and have done so since the ´70s. What would have been the loosing factor incorporating Seikos Grand Seiko and Citizens The Citizen lines during all this time? Why keep only the top lines domestic, even if they did´t sell that well? You say it´s because they didn´t see a market for them outside of Japan. That may have played some part, I don´t know? In 2008, the first private watch-shop outside of Japan that was certified to sell SEIKO Grand Seiko popped up. The shop is in Stockholm/Sweden  When asking the owner of the shop why he (who also is a AD for Casio) does not have the ability to import the Casio Oceanus line, he says it´s Casio that holding back. His shop sells the limited editions of Mr-G and other high end Casios, and I bought my latest Casio Ti Square through him  . Casio think it will loose the exclusivity that the Japanese byer wants, he told me. I have also asked the Citizen AD i Sweden about the The Citizen line, same answer. The line is for the domestic buyer. So apperently it´s not only a monetary issue. Seiko started the journey of Grand Seiko in 2008 outside of Japan and continued it in 2017 with the new brand name, no longer under the Seiko wing (if that is really true?). During those years the Grand Seiko was avalible in more and more shops outside of Japan, and they started a couple of Flagship stores in strategic locations. What they learned during those years was that the consumer outside of Japan could not overcome the SEIKO name being perceived as cheap mass produktion (while some of us did appreciate the stealth welth of it). 57 years of history did not mean anything for the buyer outside of Japan. Marketing the Grand Seiko as a brand of its own was the answer. Is it a completely new brand or only buisines strategy? No doubt they are gaining places in the luxury segment. Precious metals and Limited Editions and feeding the market with new models 2-3 times every year, prices going up, and I am sure they are making good money. The regular SEIKOs are also rising rapidly in prices now with every new model. Was all this nessesary for SEIKO? You say "the company folds around them". I have no idea att all about their financial stand. Citizen have tried to sell The Citizen in other countries (Asia I think?) before, without any greater succes (also during the last 10 years). Now some models are avalible in the New York Flagship store.. It may be the same issue with perception there. The Citizen does not signal Luxury to people outside of Japan, and I am fine with that


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

Barbababa said:


> I absolutly agree with the mythology part, even if that part mainly spins in countries outside of Japan ;-) . Seiko and Citizen sell plenty of watches around the world from their regular lines, and have done so since the ´70s. What would have been the loosing factor incorporating Seikos Grand Seiko and Citizens The Citizen lines during all this time? Why keep only the top lines domestic, even if they did´t sell that well? You say it´s because they didn´t see a market for them outside of Japan. That may have played some part, I don´t know? In 2008, the first private watch-shop outside of Japan that was certified to sell SEIKO Grand Seiko popped up. The shop is in Stockholm/Sweden  When asking the owner of the shop why he (who also is a AD for Casio) does not have the ability to import the Casio Oceanus line, he says it´s Casio that holding back. His shop sells the limited editions of Mr-G and other high end Casios, and I bought my latest Casio Ti Square through him  . Casio think it will loose the exclusivity that the Japanese byer wants, he told me. I have also asked the Citizen AD i Sweden about the The Citizen line, same answer. The line is for the domestic buyer. So apperently it´s not only a monetary issue. Seiko started the journey of Grand Seiko in 2008 outside of Japan and continued it in 2017 with the new brand name, no longer under the Seiko wing (if that is really true?). During those years the Grand Seiko was avalible in more and more shops outside of Japan, and they started a couple of Flagship stores in strategic locations. What they learned during those years was that the consumer outside of Japan could not overcome the SEIKO name being perceived as cheap mass produktion (while some of us did appreciate the stealth welth of it). 57 years of history did not mean anything for the buyer outside of Japan. Marketing the Grand Seiko as a brand of its own was the answer. Is it a completely new brand or only buisines strategy? No doubt they are gaining places in the luxury segment. Precious metals and Limited Editions and feeding the market with new models 2-3 times every year, prices going up, and I am sure they are making good money. The regular SEIKOs are also rising rapidly in prices now with every new model. Was all this nessesary for SEIKO? You say "the company folds around them". I have no idea att all about their financial stand. Citizen have tried to sell The Citizen in other countries (Asia I think?) before, without any greater succes (also during the last 10 years). Now some models are avalible in the New York Flagship store.. It may be the same issue with perception there. The Citizen does not signal Luxury to people outside of Japan, and I am fine with that


Interesting about the Oceanus. I live in Korea and considering their history with Japan, oddly enough one of the ADs in my city carries them. I know they used to carry them everywhere, and it wasn't until recently that they became primarily JDM. I'm guessing that people just couldn't get past the Casio name. As for GS, yeah there are still plenty of people who cannot get past the Seiko name (I agree, I find it a bit pathetic and sad having to go change the branding and dials the way they did, along with splintering companies), but the way sales have been going, I honestly think GS has finally dug out a respectable position for itself. I actually agree with a lot of your nostalgic views, but I also kind of respect that GS has entered the world stage and been fairly successful on its own terms. Sure, the exclusivity of a GS has been diminished a bit, but it's success also just adds another chapter to its already impressive story doesn't it? 
Anyway, I was supposed to go to Japan this month...but obviously that isn't possible at the moment. Either way, when I do get back out there, I cannot wait to try on some Chronomasters finally (if I could find that green LE...I'd buy it immediately hahaha). Anyway, take care my friend. I appreciate your passion.

Edit:Also, I know your collection. I've seen your posts on the 9f and HAQ forum and you've got great tastes in watches. I also liked a post you had about the titanium GMW-B5000's a while back, but I'm to lazy to go back and find it.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

@Mr.Jones82 I hope the c-19 will soon blow over so you can travel again (and I). I have friends in Tokyo, and this time of the year is normaly something beautiful over there, but hey are staying at home inside for most of the day. If there is something we watch geeks know, it´s that time flies, even in HAQ ;-)


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## Tom2517 (Jun 18, 2012)

Barbababa said:


> I absolutly agree with the mythology part, even if that part mainly spins in countries outside of Japan ;-) . Seiko and Citizen sell plenty of watches around the world from their regular lines, and have done so since the ´70s. What would have been the loosing factor incorporating Seikos Grand Seiko and Citizens The Citizen lines during all this time? Why keep only the top lines domestic, even if they did´t sell that well? You say it´s because they didn´t see a market for them outside of Japan. That may have played some part, I don´t know? In 2008, the first private watch-shop outside of Japan that was certified to sell SEIKO Grand Seiko popped up. The shop is in Stockholm/Sweden  When asking the owner of the shop why he (who also is a AD for Casio) does not have the ability to import the Casio Oceanus line, he says it´s Casio that holding back. His shop sells the limited editions of Mr-G and other high end Casios, and I bought my latest Casio Ti Square through him  . Casio think it will loose the exclusivity that the Japanese byer wants, he told me. I have also asked the Citizen AD i Sweden about the The Citizen line, same answer. The line is for the domestic buyer. So apperently it´s not only a monetary issue. Seiko started the journey of Grand Seiko in 2008 outside of Japan and continued it in 2017 with the new brand name, no longer under the Seiko wing (if that is really true?). During those years the Grand Seiko was avalible in more and more shops outside of Japan, and they started a couple of Flagship stores in strategic locations. What they learned during those years was that the consumer outside of Japan could not overcome the SEIKO name being perceived as cheap mass produktion (while some of us did appreciate the stealth welth of it). 57 years of history did not mean anything for the buyer outside of Japan. Marketing the Grand Seiko as a brand of its own was the answer. Is it a completely new brand or only buisines strategy? No doubt they are gaining places in the luxury segment. Precious metals and Limited Editions and feeding the market with new models 2-3 times every year, prices going up, and I am sure they are making good money. The regular SEIKOs are also rising rapidly in prices now with every new model. Was all this nessesary for SEIKO? You say "the company folds around them". I have no idea att all about their financial stand. Citizen have tried to sell The Citizen in other countries (Asia I think?) before, without any greater succes (also during the last 10 years). Now some models are avalible in the New York Flagship store.. It may be the same issue with perception there. The Citizen does not signal Luxury to people outside of Japan, and I am fine with that


Grand Seiko has been selling in Taiwan since year 2000. They have come very far, back then people wouldn't buy it unless one gets 40% off or more.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Tom2517 said:


> Grand Seiko has been selling in Taiwan since year 2000. They have come very far, back then people wouldn't buy it unless one gets 40% off or more.


Do you remember the name of the shop selling GS back then? And do you know if they were AD?


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## Tom2517 (Jun 18, 2012)

Barbababa said:


> Do you remember the name of the shop selling GS back then? And do you know if they were AD?


Yes they are ADs, a few of them in fact. Taiwan is very close with Japan in many ways and Taiwan might be the earliest international market they dipped their toe in. In fact if you google SBGH009, you will find it is Taiwan special edition (25 pcs) to commemorate GS 10 years in Taiwan. The watch was announced in 2010.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Tom2517 said:


> Yes they are ADs, a few of them in fact. Taiwan is very close with Japan in many ways and Taiwan might be the earliest international market they dipped their toe in. In fact if you google SBGH009, you will find it is Taiwan special edition (25 pcs) to commemorate GS 10 years in Taiwan. The watch was announced in 2010.


Cool! I will present him (The Swedish AD) with that information and see what he says... It says on their webpage that they were the first outside of Japan to sell GS. Maybe I will get a permanent discount code if I promise to newer reveal the information you just provided :-d


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

If you're buying one of these (Chronomaster vs GS 9F) for the purpose of lifetime longevity, which wins out? I'd think it would be the GS 9f.

GS 9F:
Battery powered, easy cell to keep changing
Quartz rate adjustment
Gear train protection sealed cabin
Stated 50 year service interval

Regarding the Chronomaster, for the purpose of extreme longevity, is it concerning that the eco-drive power cell will eventually need replacement (after 15 - 20 years or longer)? Also, is Citizen as committed to the same service support for its movements - after they have been on the market for decades - that Seiko (appears) to offer?

So, if you're choosing between these two watches with the intention of the longest service life, which wins?

I'm very interested in your opinons. Thanks!


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

OutOfSpec said:


> If you're buying one of these (Chronomaster vs GS 9F) for the purpose of lifetime longevity, which wins out? I'd think it would be the GS 9f.
> 
> GS 9F:
> Battery powered, easy cell to keep changing
> ...


Any of them will do the job. 1-1
First, there is NO stated 50 year service interval mentioned from SEIKO, so just forget you ever heard about that number. Second, the capacitor for the new generation eco-drive will last a very long time if it´s not broken, well over any owners lifetime. And like you said, they can be replaced. With that out of the way, how many years is a lifetime? I´m prety sure any of the two will out live us all, so the question is not really relevant. The Service comittment from the manufacturer when talking lifetime of a watch that can last over 100 years is only hypothetical since the owner will not be around that long, maybe the company neather. So with that out of the eqution, what do we have left? Two watches that will do the job for the owner during a life time ;-)


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

Barbababa said:


> Any of them will do the job. 1-1
> First, there is NO stated 50 year service interval mentioned from SEIKO, so just forget you ever heard about that number. Second, the capacitor for the new generation eco-drive will last a very long time if it´s not broken, well over any owners lifetime. And like you said, they can be replaced. With that out of the way, how many years is a lifetime? I´m prety sure any of the two will out live us all, so the question is not really relevant. The Service comittment from the manufacturer when talking lifetime of a watch that can last over 100 years is only hypothetical since the owner will not be around that long, maybe the company neather. So with that out of the eqution, what do we have left? Two watches that will do the job for the owner during a life time ;-)


Thanks for your reply.

Ok. Let's strike the 50 year service interval for Seiko.

The point that still stands out to me is a companies' ability and commitment to servicing their calibers for the long term. Something can always go wrong with a movement, even if the watch is built to last. Which company has a better policy and track record for servicing and having a parts supply for their movements? Is there a difference between the support for the Citizen Chronomaster and Grand Seiko 9F in this regard?

Maybe this is beside the point because it is not the "high-end Chronomaster" and was only a mid-range offering, but in the case of the Citizen E510, Citizen has discontinued this movement and I am given to understand they no longer service them if anything goes wrong. So, if there's a problem with the watch, that's the end of it. Effectively, the E510 (introduced around 1999-2000ish?) had about an 18 year "supported" lifespan by the company. While examples can and do continue to function, if owners experience new problems with those movements, there is litte possibility of repair.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

OutOfSpec said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> Ok. Let's strike the 50 year service interval for Seiko.
> 
> ...


You should ask each company and specify wich models you want information about. I´m not sure what you mean by high end chronomaster, the one that was discussed was the AQ4020-54Y with A060


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

Barbababa said:


> You should ask each company and specify wich models you want information about. I´m not sure what you mean by high end chronomaster, the one that was discussed was the AQ4020-54Y with A060


Thanks. I meant that the Chronomaster, or "The Citizen" line of watches as an the high end line of watches, with the theory (hope) that Citizen extends a greater period of service and parts stock. So, in general if one is comparing the line of Chronomaster vs GS 9F is their a concensus about which company better supports their products for the long term? Yes, it's a good idea to contact the companies about specific models.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

OutOfSpec said:


> Thanks. I meant that the Chronomaster, or "The Citizen" line of watches as an the high end line of watches, with the theory (hope) that Citizen extends a greater period of service and parts stock. So, in general if one is comparing the line of Chronomaster vs GS 9F is their a concensus about which company better supports their products for the long term? Yes, it's a good idea to contact the companies about specific models.


 I found a thread from 2015 where the matter was discussed, so the question is not new ;-) You can always send Joe Kirk a PM or read his posts in the GS thred regarding Grand Seiko. https://www.watchuseek.com/f642/faq-regarding-grand-seiko-service-4203962.html Seiko states 10 years after a model is discontinued. Since Citizen have the 10 year service warranty in Japan for The Citizen line, that basicly means the same thing? I am pretty sure the only way to get a proper answer is to contact each company and ask. But I still think the question is more of a theoretical ideological one, one that you ask because you want to find something that will make one of them exceed the other and help with making a choice between them :-d. You don´t know how long you will live and you don´t know how long a comany will exist, no matter the history. So a lifetime is more of a theorethical question. I don´t know your age, but I´m 50 years old now, so I don´t need to look beyond 30, 40+ years in a life span of any watch, and I am yet to own the same watch for more than 20 years (I own a 2001 The Citizen) But if you find good confirmed answers, make sure to post them


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

Barbababa said:


> I found a thread from 2015 where the matter was discussed, so the question is not new ;-) You can always send Joe Kirk a PM or read his posts in the GS thred regarding Grand Seiko. https://www.watchuseek.com/f642/faq-regarding-grand-seiko-service-4203962.html Seiko states 10 years after a model is discontinued. Since Citizen have the 10 year service warranty in Japan for The Citizen line, that basicly means the same thing? I am pretty sure the only way to get a proper answer is to contact each company and ask. But I still think the question is more of a theoretical ideological one, one that you ask because you want to find something that will make one of them exceed the other and help with making a choice between them :-d. You don´t know how long you will live and you don´t know how long a comany will exist, no matter the history. So a lifetime is more of a theorethical question. I don´t know your age, but I´m 50 years old now, so I don´t need to look beyond 30, 40+ years in a life span of any watch, and I am yet to own the same watch for more than 20 years (I own a 2001 The Citizen) But if you find good confirmed answers, make sure to post them


Thanks for the link to the thread, I'll certainly have a look. Yes, it may be more of a fantasy of feeling like one can buy a watch and have it last for the rest of their lifetime. I'm no spring chicken, but I do like to think I have a good chunk of years left that if I throw down significant money for a Grand Seiko/Chronomaster and don't flip it, that I can keep it until the end. Perhaps, it's just the idea that I like. This makes me think about other products that have "lifetime guarantees" -- they're not much of a guarantee if the product breaks and the company is no longer there to support the claim.


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