# What to use to clean (especially rust) a watch



## robetalks (Nov 17, 2014)

Hello, I'm new at this and would like to ask what would be the best idea when it comes to removing rust from the mechanism and also cleaning the mechanism, maybe usable with ultrasonic cleaner?

Please point out the substance, as I live in Czech Republic, product names might differ a lot, so based on substance I could probably find it. 

Thank you


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## xzqt (Jan 26, 2013)

Ultra sonic cleaner, fiber brush, vinegar, polishing, straight replacement parts just to name a few.
Really needs to see how badly the corrosion is.


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## Border-Reiver (Mar 13, 2015)

There is nothing I know you can simply add to the water in an ultrasonic cleaner to remove all rust completely. You really have to take the movement apart, start with the ultrasonic cleaner to get the worst and loose layers off and then you must see how to proceed, chemically (different, but standard types of rust removers) or mechanically or a combination of both. It also depends on the type of watch, the size of the movement and the size of the parts. On an old verge watch, with the wheels far apart and more coarse elements and no real need to bring a watch back to an accuracy of +/- a few seconds a day, you might get away with things, where a small wrist watch would need additional mechanical treatment (brushing, abrasion) or a complete replacement of single parts at the worst.

Any kind of mechanical rust-removal (brushing, abrasion) requires that you put the parts into a specific solution first, that can be petroleum, diluted hydrochloric acid etc., a process which might have to be repeated several times.

I know of a good source describing the various processes and I could copy it, paste it into the Google translator, convert it into the Czech language and put the text in here. But this forum is in English, also to see and control what people write here, which can be anything in other languages. The source itself is also not in English.

*To cut things short, I have sent you a Personal Mail (check you incoming mail here) with the Czech translation. Once you have seen and read it, it would be nice if you give us a feedback here, I am curious about the outcome and the quality of the translation, as I do not speak any Czech. And for all interested in the English version, I have copied the (mostly understandable) text from the Google translator (not correcting any obvious mistakes).*

* Unedited text from a Google translation:*

Methods of removing rust

Restoration intends the production of an object in its original state. This contribution is limited the restoration on methods to eliminate the age-related Corrosion.

Mechanical removal of rust

The only mechanical loosening of the metal surface requires a relatively high expenditure of energy and can cause danger when improperly Application the danger of property damage or destruction. For this Reason it is recommended that mechanical treatment only as an accompanying measure, together with other methods, where it is already dissolved rust from the
Remove surface.

Petroleum

The removal of rust by means of kerosene is probably one of the oldest methods. By pushing lower interfacial tension the Petroleum between iron surface and corrosion layer, the
Rust can be relatively easily brushed off. The objects are, depending on the Rusting few days to several weeks in a container Petroleum inserted. In between, the object is to take out time and again, brush off and reinserting it. The procedure must be repeated for so long, are eliminated until all traces of corrosion. The petroleum smell uncomfortable. This method is, however, easy, cheap and shows good results. For heavily encrusted objects is a rough cleaning with Petroleum possible, and then a fine purification using another
Method mounted.

Hydrochloric acid

A relatively fast method is the rust removal by means of a 10 percent Hydrochloric acid. The object is, depending on the rusting 5 to 30 minutes in Hydrochloric acid dipped. Then rinse with water, the remaining Remove traces of corrosion with a fine wire brush and then neutralize with ammonia. Demands Dealing with hydrochloric acid extreme caution, goggles are advisable flowing Water should always be available for cleaning. This method is in practice because of the required amount of hydrochloric acid only for small Iron objects are.

Pickling inhibitor

Hiebei is a salt Sure product with inhibitors such as Copper or tin salts. The inhibitors prevent excessive Tackling the metals are deposited on the surface after the Voltage range from, and thus form a protective layer. The article is often removed from the bath, brushed and reinserted. This process is repeated until the surface is cleaned is. Finally, rinse with water and dry (approx. 6 hours the radiator).

Reduction with aluminum chips and vinegar

This method is the "classical" style, heavily rusted items to clean reasonably priced and perfect. A plastic container (no metal!) is approximately 2 to 3 cm filled with aluminum shavings.
Aluminum chips are obtained for approximately 1 DM per kilo at a Metal turning. Then poured vinegar (5%) into the vessel shall ensure that the aluminum chips about 3 cm with Vinegar are covered and defines the object to be cleaned so that it of Aluminum chips and vinegar is covered. By forming galvanic Current between the metals aluminum and iron, the iron oxides
dissolved. The oxides are expressed as alumina and go free in solution. The object must be removed daily, brush off, wash it and replace it. After about five to seven days the object is blank. It is important to ensure that the vinegar must be replaced with black coloring, as otherwise no more iron oxides can go into solution and the Rust removal is stopped.

After completion of the rust removal is rinsed with water. Thorough leaching is achieved by about 30 minutes boiling. Then the object dried (is the easiest one day on the radiator lay) and the preservative supplied.

Summary of other methods of rust removal Because of the relatively high cost are ultrasonic or Sandblasting equipment primarily used by restorers.

Ultrasonic cleaning

An ultrasound machine produces sound waves between 20 kilohertz and 10 megahertz. In combination with a chemical cleaning solution is achieved by the sound waves a strong mechanical action, the Subject to vibration and corrosion seated all parts be torn and separated. For fragile pieces and improper use may destroy the objects come.

Sandblasting equipment

The cutting sandblast separates the brittle material from corrosion the elastic metal surface. This method is particularly suitable for large surfaces or for cleaning of difficult reach places we pipes or depressions.

Electrolysis

This method is ideally suited to iron gently and cleaned professionally.

Principle: At the cathode (negative pole), the object to be cleaned is connected and the Iron reduced (Fe2 + -Fe3 +). Subsequently, it comes at the cathode to the
Formation of hydrogen, which additionally to ease Korosionsschicht contributes. At the anode (+ pole) it comes to precipitation the dissolved iron oxides and metal dissolution! Therefore, never the Pole confound! The method of electrolysis is also particularly suitable for Items suitable where wood is inextricably linked to iron (example Bajonettgiffe). The oiled wood takes a few hours Water experience shows no damage and allMetal parts, such as e.g. Rivets or tangs, are without any marks bright


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## robetalks (Nov 17, 2014)

Border-Reiver said:


> There is nothing I know you can simply add to the water in an ultrasonic cleaner to remove all rust completely. You really have to take the movement apart, start with the ultrasonic cleaner to get the worst and loose layers off and then you must see how to proceed, chemically (different, but standard types of rust removers) or mechanically or a combination of both. It also depends on the type of watch, the size of the movement and the size of the parts. On an old verge watch, with the wheels far apart and more coarse elements and no real need to bring a watch back to an accuracy of +/- a few seconds a day, you might get away with things, where a small wrist watch would need additional mechanical treatment (brushing, abrasion) or a complete replacement of single parts at the worst.
> 
> Any kind of mechanical rust-removal (brushing, abrasion) requires that you put the parts into a specific solution first, that can be petroleum, diluted hydrochloric acid etc., a process which might have to be repeated several times.
> 
> ...


This might not sound good, but I don't actually speak czech eider  I only live here, but not czech myself.


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## Cowvin (May 27, 2015)

This might help


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## Border-Reiver (Mar 13, 2015)

robetalks said:


> This might not sound good, but I don't actually speak czech eider  I only live here, but not czech myself.


What language do you speak? You got the English version, that might already be sufficient.


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## robetalks (Nov 17, 2014)

Border-Reiver said:


> What language do you speak? You got the English version, that might already be sufficient.


Several of them, but I understand and speak properly English, never actually said that I need translation, just that in Czech Republic brands are different then UK or US, for example, so for me to find something, I would need the name of the substance, not the name of the brand or model.


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## Border-Reiver (Mar 13, 2015)

If English is alright, why do you have a problem with the substances f.i. named 'petroleum' or 'hydrochloric acid'? These are no 'brands' or 'models' but substances. 

It's all, including the most standard methods of treatment, explained in detail in my posting above, mentioning the substances used.

English 'petroleom' = Czech 'ropa'
English 'hydrochloric acid' = Czech 'kyselina chlorovodíková'

I think you can do the rest yourself.

I've said, that this is a not so perfect translation from another language into English with the Google translator. So perhaps the translation even comes from your native language and I could link that directly. I also do not understand that you do not want to mention the native language you speak. We are all friends of horology here, no matter where we come from. I just wanted to help, as I do a lot myself around watch cases, including removal of rust. Whatever, I am out of this thread now.


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

:-d:-dGot pics of your rust?


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## robetalks (Nov 17, 2014)

pithy said:


> :-d:-dGot pics of your rust?


Sicko


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## robetalks (Nov 17, 2014)

Border-Reiver said:


> If English is alright, why do you have a problem with the substances f.i. named 'petroleum' or 'hydrochloric acid'? These are no 'brands' or 'models' but substances.
> 
> It's all, including the most standard methods of treatment, explained in detail in my posting above, mentioning the substances used.
> 
> ...


Because I didn't know what to use. I searched online and found things like 'Naphtha' which is some brand from US, but couldn't find what exactly it contains, so I can base myself on that.


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## robetalks (Nov 17, 2014)

Border-Reiver said:


> If English is alright, why do you have a problem with the substances f.i. named 'petroleum' or 'hydrochloric acid'? These are no 'brands' or 'models' but substances.
> 
> It's all, including the most standard methods of treatment, explained in detail in my posting above, mentioning the substances used.
> 
> ...


BTW, 'ropa' from Czech it really translates to crude oil in English.


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

robetalks said:


> Sicko


:-d:-dlol!

Are you acquainted with the term chemical abstract services number?

There are EU equivilents if you prefer.

huh?

I composed this exhibit with just your type of situation in mind.

Now, if you care to post hi res pics of your specific oxidation I might be able to propose an appropriate agent.:-d:-d


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## robetalks (Nov 17, 2014)

pithy said:


> :-d:-dlol!
> 
> Are you acquainted with the term chemical abstract services number?
> 
> ...


Here are some samples of my 'rust'


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

robetalks said:


> Here are some samples of my 'rust'
> View attachment 5598881
> View attachment 5598889
> View attachment 5598897
> View attachment 5598905


You have an interesting assortment of oxidized material.

Watch corrosion is ferrous or non-ferrous.

The red-brown stuff is ferrous - specifically from carbon steel (as opposed to stainless steel).

The stuff on the movement ring may have leached over there from another source or been deposited in solution as the ring appears to have a corrosion resistant finish and deep pitting isn't obvious.

The stuff depositied on the stem is possibly from the stem as the stem shows significant erosion to the point of possible structural compromise.

Any staining of the bridge is just that.

An extreme of pH - either + or - will put the iron oxide into aqueous solution.

It will also attack any other reactive metal.

Modern removers utilise chelation.

Any prolonged exposure of carbon steel watch material usually ends very badly.

This is particularly true of hairsprings, mainsprings, click springs, clutch lever springs, escape wheels, fine pivots and fine screws and similarly configured components.

There is nothing restorative about chemical or electrical or mechanical removal of corrosion.

In most instances good material that is now critical to the future proper function of the part is inadvertantly removed with the indiscriminant application of these methods.

Sooooooooooo, avoid the springs, pivots, etc.

Try the most passive mechanical methods first.

Then experiment with very diluted acid solutions, under constant supervision and frequent examination.


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## vincent2008 (Nov 13, 2014)

Use a fiber pen brush to clean the first layer of rust then use ultrasonic machine add ELMA to clean.
If is still not full clean, use gauge 3000, 5000 emery paper to clean or polishing compound to remove the rust.


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## dom_ (Jan 29, 2012)

vincent2008 said:


> Use a fiber pen brush to clean the first layer of rust then use ultrasonic machine add ELMA to clean.
> If is still not full clean, use gauge 3000, 5000 emery paper to clean or polishing compound to remove the rust.


Fibre pens are not good when dealing with plated items like most watch bridges.


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## Deli (Jul 19, 2014)

I'd definitely leave the rusted parts in petroleum/naphta. After a few days, brush the parts (regular or bass brush), then again in naphta and so on.
When the rust is (almost) gone, then use the ultrasonic cleaning.

I would not re-use the stem, as I'm pretty sure it'll break soon or later.


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## sumanbhadra (Jul 5, 2014)

truly you are a knight templar for us the poor watch nerds--fantastic work very through very kind --i say goodevening to you sir


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## night_owl (Jan 8, 2013)

robetalks said:


> Because I didn't know what to use. I searched online and found things like 'Naphtha' which is some brand from US, but couldn't find what exactly it contains, so I can base myself on that.


I'm not sure what naphtha would be called in Czech, but I believe the grade of naphtha people use for watch cleaning here in the U.S. is VMP naphtha, and it's also what's used for cigarette lighters. I think you might find (Zippo) benzín do zapalovačů which should be similar.

Beware that regular, non-VMP naphtha isn't as pure quality (it doesn't even work well as lighter fuel. I ruined a lighter attempting to use regular naphtha, in the past, while VMP naphtha worked well as lighter fluid).

Here in the states, quart cans of VMP naphtha are sold at art & hardware stores that sell painting supplies.

As for kerosene, I could be wrong, but I believe kerosin and nafta are the Czech words for what we call kerosene and diesel fuel here in the states.

I have heard watchmakers and clock repair people complain about the use of kerosene to clean watch & clock parts; they claim the kerosene remains in parts and contaminates their cleaning solutions. I have soaked badly rusted watch tools in kerosene, spot cleaned movement plates with kerosene, and use kerosene as a penetrating oil to loosen rusty screws, but whenever I do I rinse afterward with VMP naphtha.


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

dom_ said:


> Fibre pens are not good when dealing with plated items like most watch bridges.


lol


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

night_owl said:


> I'm not sure what naphtha would be called in Czech, but I believe the grade of naphtha people use for watch cleaning here in the U.S. is VMP naphtha, and it's also what's used for cigarette lighters. I think you might find (Zippo) benzín do zapalovačů which should be similar.
> 
> Beware that regular, non-VMP naphtha isn't as pure quality (it doesn't even work well as lighter fuel. I ruined a lighter attempting to use regular naphtha, in the past, while VMP naphtha worked well as lighter fluid).
> 
> ...


What's the cas#?


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## night_owl (Jan 8, 2013)

pithy said:


> What's the cas#?


I don't know which chemical you want the CAS # of, but I'm glad you asked because in searching for the CAS numbers I now see that Zippo lighter fluid isn't exactly VMP naphtha.

Zippo Lighter Fluid

light hydrotreated distillate 70% CAS # 68410-97-9
hydrotreated light naphtha 30% CAS # 64742-49-0

VM & P Naphtha

CAS # 8032-32-4

Maybe it could still be clean enough to use as a watch cleaner? I've read of others using lighter fluid for an alternative watch cleaner & rinse, but I can only attest to VMP naphtha.

The caslab.com website oddly has VM&P naphtha listed as a synonym for plain "Naphtha" when they have different CAS numbers and I know for a fact VM&P naphtha is a cleaner solvent than plain naphtha.

VM & P Naphtha

Synonyms: Benzine (light petroleum distillate); Benzoline; BP 2; Canadol; Ligroin; Ligroine; Ligroine naptha, Varnish makers' and painters' naphtha; Petroleum ether; Petroleum distillate naphtha; Petroleum spirit; Refined solvent naphtha

CAS # 8032-32-4

Naphtha

CAS # 8030-30-6

Synonyms: petroleum naphtha, coal tar naphtha, naphtha v.m. and p

Apparently, there's a variety of forms of kerosene with their own different CAS numbers, but I'm not suggesting cleaning rust from watch parts using kerosene without rinsing the part(s) well afterward with a solution or solvent and afterward degrading the rinse solvent/solution to a cleaner or disposing it.

Robetalks, what will you do to clean watch hairsprings? I don't know if there's a clean alternative to the One Dip Hairspring Cleaner. Hopefully somebody else may know of one as I don't know if VM&P naphtha might leave some residue that might affect hairsprings.


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

You've already discovered that the monikers are so vague as to be virtually worthless compared to the chemical abstract services numbers or their EU eqs. 

The various dry cleaning fluids, choke/injector sprays and brake cleaners work very admirably if you are too stubborn to buy one-dip.

Consult the chart.

If you've got something dirty - spin it or chill it and skim it and then filter it.

It'll be cleaner than some of the watch material.


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