# Project "Kingston": Dial and hands



## Yao

For reference lume colors:


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## es335

Yao said:


> For reference lume colors:


Thanks! Which one is closest to the gilt Sub in Dr. No?

Also, which type of Super Luminova is used in the LRRP?

Does modern day Rolex use "C1"? Maybe that's why there lume is so poor compared to modern day Omega?


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## NWP627

Bill,
Last year JLC released a homage to the 60's Polaris and used an aged lume for the first few in the edition. It looked like the "light orange" you have in the above charts. That is my vote but I also have nothing against "new" looking lume if that becomes the consensus of opinion. 
N


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## es335

I'd say go for the C3 and get maximum brightness.


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## andrewb

Actually i am quite taken with the low lume red reflecting the red triangle (if it is included) on the bezel, I know its not the most functional but since when was functionality the basis of a 1950s style dive watch designed for a fictional spy that important, so long as it lumes (verb?), and anyway you wouldnt want your c3 lume to give the game away while sneaking about a master criminals mountain hideaway in the middle of the night (see OHMSS) now would you.


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## Galpo

I would choose the C3 or the Natural, as long as it's "yellowish" like i see it in
your attached pics. 
I remembered that C3 is green, not yellow. 
if it's green in real life, I'd prefer the white C1
JMHO


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## tallguy

es335 said:


> i'd say go for the c3 and get maximum brightness.


+1:-!


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## andrewb

Just noticed the distinct lack of red triangle on the reference pics, I think the light orange might be the one then as it would show off the gilt in low light perhaps.


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## timbo

It looks to me that 'Natural' or C3 are the closest to the original.


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## JDS (Ohio)

My vote is for C3, but are you using the Super Luminova2007, the upgraded formula that I read about in a magazine some months ago, _Watchtime_, or _IW_, I think?

Just make sure to give it a heavy enough application to get enough brightness and "burn time".

Reasons:

On some "recent" tritium dials I have, C3 seems closest to the original tritium color out of the box, before it starts to noticeably degrade.
C3 is the brightest lume, and didn't Fleming write about Bond's watch having 'brightly glowing phosphorescente numerals"? Besides, I'm a lume junky.
When Cmdr. Bond (or a real life contemporary) picked up a watch at a jeweler, or from Q, back in the early 60s, the lume material would be fresh and pristine - looking like the C3.

If someone really wants to make it look "vintage" / yellowed, their best bet would be to see a relume artist, like Kent Parks, especially so they can get the results fine tuned. However, for me at least, artificially aged lume looks too consistent, too artificial, which defeats the purpose.

PS: It's a good bet that in the shot with the cigarette lighter, the Sub's lume would look slightly yellow tinged, from the light of the flame, and also from the film quality of the day. Just my guess.


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## sschum

C3 gets my vote for all of the reasons John (JDS) stated.

Scott


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## Donald Grant

I like the natural or C3.

DG


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## Steve356

from these colors I like the "light orange". 
whatever Omega used on the Dynamic pilot series was very nicely yellowed and had a very powerful glow.


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## Rob T

A vote for Natural or C3 also - these seem more thematic with the overall design.

Rob.


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## bpax

C3 please.


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## Reintitan

I vote for C3 (first column, 2nd row) in that vintage color.

Gilt hands for sure and a red triangle on the bezel insert.

-Gerard


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## Ken268

JDS (Ohio) said:


> My vote is for C3, but are you using the Super Luminova2007, the upgraded formula that I read about in a magazine some months ago, _Watchtime_, or _IW_, I think?
> 
> Just make sure to give it a heavy enough application to get enough brightness and "burn time".
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> On some "recent" tritium dials I have, C3t seems closest to the original tritium color out of the box, before it starts to noticeably degrade.
> C3 is the brightest lume, and didn't Fleming write about Bond's watch having 'brightly glowing phosphorescente numerals"? Besides, I'm a lume junky.
> When Cmdr. Bond (or a real life contemporary) picked up a watch at a jeweler, or from Q, back in the early 60s, the lume material would be fresh and pristine - looking like the C3.
> 
> If someone really wants to make it look "vintage" / yellowed, their best bet would be to see a relume artist, like Kent Parks, especially so they can get the results fine tuned. However, for me at least, artificially aged lume looks too consistent, too artificial, which defeats the purpose.
> 
> PS: It's a good bet that in the shot with the cigarette lighter, the Sub's lume would look slightly yellow tinged, from the light of the flame, and also from the film quality of the day. Just my guess.


My vote would be for the lume to match the shade of the lume that would have come with the 6538 when first issued. Not sure if that would be C1 or C3...

Does anyone know if the mix of tritium (is there such a thing) used in the early subs are the same as the tritium used today? If there is a picture of a sub from that era, or if anyone has some Rolex lume info, that'd be great.

Seeing as lume ages, I am curious as to how easy or not it is to "age" lume by leaving it in the sunlight...I've got some NOS watches with light yellow lume and others with dark yellow/brownish lume.

Ken


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## racerx454

*Another vote for C3*

+1 C3 Nice and thick!

Functionality and, in complete agreement with others, is closest to "new" tritium-doped copper sulfide paint pigments.


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## jhobbs

Ken268 said:


> My vote would be for the lume to match the shade of the lume that would have come with the 6538 when first issued. Not sure if that would be C1 or C3...


That would be my vote as well. I don't need super bright but I'm not all that hung up on lume these days. We should try and keep it as true to the original as is possible.


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## giosdad

I agree that it should match the original when it was new, though Iwould want it closer to yellow or white and not green as C3 sometimes looks.

I also like the idea of the red triangle.

It looks like the consensus is for gilt hands. I don't see any other choice that might work. 

Bill: Did you have any other hands in mind?


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## JDS (Ohio)

Anyone know whether the 6538 came with gilt/gold hands, or silver? I'd vote for original color, whatever that was, same as the lume (my guess is still that would be the same as C3).


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## rcarbonetti

My vote goes for C3 Natural. The red triangle is also a great idea


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## abuemily

I'm all in favor of the red triangle as well. The lume isn't that big a deal for me, I'd prefer just that the color of the indices/markers look like a new watch--that's what this is. If you bought a sub new back then, it would have looked "white" not aged. It's all personal preference...for me it's a new watch, I want it to look new.


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## Donald Grant

JDS (Ohio) said:


> Anyone know whether the 6538 came with gilt/gold hands, or silver? I'd vote for original color, whatever that was, same as the lume (my guess is still that would be the same as C3).


It came with gilt/gold hands.

DG


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## delahood

I love the idea of "aged lume",a distressed sort of look.


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## giosdad

So far I like these dial ideas the best. The font sizes would have to be perfected. I am sorry if I am not crediting the idea to the right person as it is too hard to find if somebody suggessted this exact idea already:​
#1: If the name "Kingston" will be on the dial make it in a different color such as matching the gilt hands. Somebody had mentioned a hint of red which is another option for the name, though I think might make the watch look too modern. I like the idea of using "self-winding" if we can.​
*MIIK*
*KINGSTON*​
*200m/660ft*
SELF-WINDING ​
#2. If we don't used "self-winding" and want to keep the dial clean, then "kingston" can go down to the depth rating and keep it in an alternate color. Thsi one was suggested by Granitequarry.​
*MIIK*​
*KINGSTON*
*200m/660ft *​


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## GregoryD

Another vote for C3 or natural. I think using C1 would make the watch look to "new," or at least the C3 and natural lume would give it a more aged look, which seems to be what most people here would like.

Greg


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## jgallo

Another vote for Natural or C3. It looks to me like Natural would fit the bill as a good compromise.

Joe


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## siggy

I always find it difficult to tell true colours on a computer screen so I won't pick a straight lume code but my firm preference is that the colours should match the hands and dial print. Hands and dial print should be gold/gilt so I think a creamy tint works best. 

Sometimes you see these old subs that have been relumed with a greenish lume, it just justn't match the gold print and completely ruins the watch. 

So I anything creamy is fine, aged is great if it can be done to look right but just steer clear of anything with a greenish tinge. 

If all all else fails choose white, just not even a hint of green :-d

regards

siggy


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## JDS (Ohio)

siggy said:


> I always find it difficult to tell true colours on a computer screen so I won't pick a straight lume code but my firm preference is that the colours should match the hands and dial print. Hands and dial print should be gold/gilt so I think a creamy tint works best.
> 
> Sometimes you see these old subs that have been relumed with a greenish lume, it just justn't match the gold print and completely ruins the watch.
> 
> So I anything creamy is fine, aged is great if it can be done to look right but just steer clear of anything with a greenish tinge.
> 
> If all all else fails choose white, just not even a hint of green :-d
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


Good point about those weird, sort of light mint green relumes - just not right.

If you pick up a stock Omega SMP and look at its lume, that is untinted C3 Super Luminova - not quite stark white, but off white, with just a trace amount / tinge of yellow green. That just about matches the few remaining tritium paint dials to be seen these days, that have not started to visibly degrade, and also pretty close to what I remember from the 70s and 80s (though memory can play tricks).

The only problem with matching the lume shade to the dial print is that the 6538 had a gilt dial, so the lume would never have matched the printing out of the box. That would move it away from capturing the Dr. No James Bond look.


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## Galpo

siggy said:


> I always find it difficult to tell true colours on a computer screen so I won't pick a straight lume code but my firm preference is that the colours should match the hands and dial print. Hands and dial print should be gold/gilt so I think a creamy tint works best.
> 
> Sometimes you see these old subs that have been relumed with a greenish lume, it just justn't match the gold print and completely ruins the watch.
> 
> So I anything creamy is fine, aged is great if it can be done to look right but just steer clear of anything with a greenish tinge.
> 
> If all all else fails choose white, just not even a hint of green :-d
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


I chose C3 but reading this I agree 100%


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## Reintitan

Another opinion on the hands:

Besides being gilt (gold colored) the sweep seconds hand should have a large (lollipop-like) luminous dot like the original 6538. The luminous dot was larger than that seen in the subsequent Subs.


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## racerx454

Reintitan said:


> Another opinion on the hands:
> 
> Besides being gilt (gold colored) the sweep seconds hand should have a large (lollipop-like) luminous dot like the original 6538. The luminous dot was larger than that seen in the subsequent Subs.


Goo point. I was just noyicing that, too. I like it and think it would further distinguish the Kingston from modern Subs/clones.

-Kevin-


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## namor

Definitely C3. I like the idea of starting new and aging the dial myself over the next decade or two.


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## Yao

*Here is my suggestion.....*

The C3 is in real life has a greenish tint to it. For example the Ocean7 LM-7 has a greenish tint to its C3 lume, at least by the pictures I have seen. The Seamaster GMT I have is slightly green. Is this what everyone else has seen with this lume?

One suggestion is BG W9. It is white in daylight. The one issue is that it glows blue rather than green. The tritium they used to use glowed green. The performance of BG W9 is apparently comparable to that of C3. What do you think?


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## JDS (Ohio)

*Re: Here is my suggestion.....*

Forgot to weigh in on the BG W9 option. I could live with the blue glow, but still think C3 would be best - not only would it have that slight tint like the original in normal light, but the same color glow in the dark as well.

However, the BG W9 might be a preferred lume for either the LRRP or an upcoming watch with white text and lume to match.


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## caesarmascetti

*Re: Here is my suggestion.....*

IMO stay with the C3, it also glows brighter if memory serves.


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## Rafael_T

*TONS of C3*

Tons. :-!


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## Yao

*I have added a poll to this thread....*

please vote so that we can get a more scientific view of the group's preference.

The dial and hands are all going to be made from new tooling so I have no preference. Its going to pretty much cost the same no matter what you guys choose. 

As for the sweep seconds hand. The one that seems to be used in the movies looks like the smaller meatball sweep seconds hand version. We can have the bigger meatball sweep seconds hand made if everyone will let me just use the sweep from the LRRP on this watch - this way I am only paying tooling for one sweep rather than two.


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## SeikoSickness

Here is a lume reference shot I took of some of my OCEAN7 watches.

Left to right are:

Grey (stealth) lume, C3, C1, BG W9.










The BG W9 is almost as good as C3 but has a nice white day time appearance.

Bill...here is a photo of my LM-1 LE with C3 lume. I do like the green appearance in daylight.


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## Yao

What always throws me about C3 is that the hands look "whiter" than the dial. Its the same on my Seamaster. How does it look to you in person?



SeikoSickness said:


> Here is a lume reference shot I took of some of my OCEAN7 watches.
> 
> Left to right are:
> 
> Grey (stealth) lume, C3, C1, BG W9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The BG W9 is almost as good as C3 but has a nice white day time appearance.
> 
> Bill...here is a photo of my LM-1 LE with C3 lume. I do like the green appearance in daylight.


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## Rafael_T

*I voted C3, but that BGW9 looks pretty good too.*

I like the blue lume.


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## timbo

*Re: I voted C3, but that BGW9 looks pretty good too.*



Rafael_T said:


> I like the blue lume.


I voted C3, too, but am reconsidering now, given how green that C3 is and how great the blue BGW9 looks.


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## Yao

*Re: I voted C3, but that BGW9 looks pretty good too.*

Thanks for the comments. The poll won't be the ultimate decision. It is however going to be an important starting point to see what we offer.



timbo said:


> I voted C3, too, but am reconsidering now, given how green that C3 is and how great the blue BGW9 looks.


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## caesarmascetti

*Re: I voted C3, but that BGW9 looks pretty good too.*

Hey Bill you can borrow my LM2 and check out the green on the C3 if you want.


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## caesarmascetti

*Re: I voted C3, but that BGW9 looks pretty good too.*



Yao said:


> Thanks for the comments. The poll won't be the ultimate decision. It is however going to be an important starting point to see what we offer.


I also have a watch that uses BWG9 an LM6 GMT and while it does glow blue, I would never say it's almost as bright as the C3


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## MDS

I happen to like the C1, which is what I presume is on the Stingray...I'm open to the others, though...

I'm much less thrilled about the idea of "aged" lume, though. My feeling is that it's a new watch with a vintage style, rather than a new watch trying to look old, if that makes any sense...

Mike


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## Reintitan

I changed my vote to BWG9 (didn't know that it existed). I like that it glows blue and also has a "vintagy" look.

I could go either way with using the large meatball seconds hand from the LRRP or use a new seconds hand made especially for the Kingston. I'm leaning toward the former though. Maybe a mockup would help? ;-)


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## JDS (Ohio)

FYI, on the question of the C3 Super Luminova color in natural light, here is a shot of my Seamaster. The colors came out pretty true in this photo, at least on my monitor. As you can see, it's not completely white, with just a hint of the yellow and green in it. With a good sunlight charge, it WILL glow through the night - it woke my hiking buddy up in the tent at about 4:00 AM awhile back.

If Omega is using C3 on these critters, that is my vote. If it is something else, my vote is for matching whatever it is on the Omega SMP - it looks pretty close to my memory of tritium paint "back in the day" and glows better than any other luminous paint I've seen.

Natural might be even closer to the old tritium look though, I've no experience with it.



















I would not want the deeper green that I've seen on some dials and hands, including the unaltered Sea 3s and the Ocean 7 pictured above - it just wouldn't look at all like the original 6538 to me with that shade (is a tint added to those?). If it is a choice between *THAT* shade and the BG W9, I'd switch to the latter.

And I would steer clear of C1; as much as I like my Tridente, it's weak point is the anemic C1 lume that I was told was on it - if it glows longer than the others, you couldn't prove it by me. Also, while it looks fantastic against a blue dial, it might be too white to work on a vintage Submariner homage. At least with the BG W9 you get brighter and more burn time.


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## SeikoSickness

Yao said:


> What always throws me about C3 is that the hands look "whiter" than the dial. Its the same on my Seamaster. How does it look to you in person?


Bill,

You are right, the hands do appear slightly whiter than the lume on the dial. However, I think that has to do with the fact that the lume is printed on a dark dial. It will look darker than the hands which, in the case of the LM-1 LE, are skelletonized and then just filled with lume material. Nothing behind the lume to darken the colour.


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## siggy

I've just voted for the BWG9 but it's good to know the poll is not the ultimate decider, just a guide.

I still think an aged lume with a creamy tint is worth trying very hard to make work though, and just have the white BWG9 as a choice to fall back on.

I have tested a Citizen 1000m that also has blue lume, it must be BWG9. It might not have the initial brightness of C3 but it lasted an incredibly long time. With night adjusted eyes it was still readable several DAYS after exposure to light not just hours so no need to worry about night time legibility.

regards

siggy


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## siggy

*Re: I have added a poll to this thread....*



Yao said:


> The dial and hands are all going to be made from new tooling so I have no preference. Its going to pretty much cost the same no matter what you guys choose.


Please have a look at the choices of minute hand that are available. The base of the minute hand near the pinion on the original Rolexes and Tudors starts off thin near the pinion and gradually thickens to the normal thickness of the length of the hand. In your illustration the base of the hand starts off thin but too sharply extends to the normal thickness of the hand, it should be more gradual. The original design just has a more refined look in my opinion. If you have a look at some pics I hope you get my meaning, if not I can scan a sketch to illustrate the point but be warned, I'm no Leonarda da Vinci when it comes to drawing ;-)

It's not a big deal either way but if the tooling needs to be done anyway might aswell go like the original. With all the stick and ball hands out there over the deacades I'd be surprised if there weren't an off the shelf version that fitted the bill anyway.

regards

siggy


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## TOKI188

Bill, I've always loved the look of your dials as they are, and you know I have have quite a few.

I just don't think that the extra brightness is worth the green appearance.

As for the lume looking new, well it is a new watch, isn't it?

C1 all the way.

Arthur


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## Yao

*Re: I have added a poll to this thread....*

Your comments are right on the money. I just didn't think anyone would notice.....sorry to have underestimated you guys. The "head" of the minute hand needs to transition more gradually into the body just as you noted. I hope that you will agree that for example the Vantage hand set is a closer to the ideal angle. I will revise the handset so that it better approximates the original.

It is strange. Even the "Stick and Ball" handset that I currently offer is made from custom tooling (i.e. not off the shelf). The "stock" styles that I find offered by hand manufacturers are usually significantly different from what you would expect.



siggy said:


> Please have a look at the choices of minute hand that are available. The base of the minute hand near the pinion on the original Rolexes and Tudors starts off thin near the pinion and gradually thickens to the normal thickness of the length of the hand. In your illustration the base of the hand starts off thin but too sharply extends to the normal thickness of the hand, it should be more gradual. The original design just has a more refined look in my opinion. If you have a look at some pics I hope you get my meaning, if not I can scan a sketch to illustrate the point but be warned, I'm no Leonarda da Vinci when it comes to drawing ;-)
> 
> It's not a big deal either way but if the tooling needs to be done anyway might aswell go like the original. With all the stick and ball hands out there over the deacades I'd be surprised if there weren't an off the shelf version that fitted the bill anyway.
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


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## siggy

*Re: I have added a poll to this thread....*



Yao said:


> Your comments are right on the money. I just didn't think anyone would notice.....sorry to have underestimated you guys. The "head" of the minute hand needs to transition more gradually into the body just as you noted. I hope that you will agree that for example the Vantage hand set is a closer to the ideal angle. I will revise the handset so that it better approximates the original.
> 
> It is strange. Even the "Stick and Ball" handset that I currently offer is made from custom tooling (i.e. not off the shelf). The "stock" styles that I find offered by hand manufacturers are usually significantly different from what you would expect.


I should have expected that you had already noticed it. It was the judgment and taste that you have shown with your previous projects that made me comfortable entering the pre-order for this one, I'm sure you will make a good job of it.

I'm sure I can find some tiny other little points in the design that I can be picky about ;-) but there's a good chance that you've already seen those yourself aswell anyway.

regards

siggy


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## Yao

*Re: I have added a poll to this thread....*

I would welcome your additional comments. Its good to have more than one set of eyes on this project.



siggy said:


> I should have expected that you had already noticed it. It was the judgment and taste that you have shown with your previous projects that made me comfortable entering the pre-order for this one, I'm sure you will make a good job of it.
> 
> I'm sure I can find some tiny other little points in the design that I can be picky about ;-) but there's a good chance that you've already seen those yourself aswell anyway.
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


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## timbo

*MIIK*
*KINGSTON*​
*200m/660ft*
SELFWINDING  

​
I modified the previous dial design a bit. :roll:

I like this - KINGSTON and mIIk somehow go together (all the Is and Ks, I guess). Also like the KINGSTON in the smaller font and matching 'gilt' colour that matches the index ring. The two top lines also suggests a 'crown' without being too obvious.


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## siggy

timbo said:


> *MIIK*
> *KINGSTON*​
> *200m/660ft*
> SELFWINDING
> 
> ​
> I modified the previous dial design a bit. :roll:
> 
> I like this - KINGSTON and mIIk somehow go together (all the Is and Ks, I guess). Also like the KINGSTON in the smaller font and matching 'gilt' colour that matches the index ring. The two top lines also suggests a 'crown' without being too obvious.


Hi Timbo,

What colour are you thinking about for the words other than Kingston? Red?

regards

siggy


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## giosdad

I see your point. This looks good.



timbo said:


> *MIIK*
> 
> *KINGSTON*​
> *200m/660ft*
> SELFWINDING ​
> 
> 
> I modified the previous dial design a bit. :roll:
> 
> I like this - KINGSTON and mIIk somehow go together (all the Is and Ks, I guess). Also like the KINGSTON in the smaller font and matching 'gilt' colour that matches the index ring. The two top lines also suggests a 'crown' without being too obvious.


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## timbo

I would assume the other words would be white. Kingston would be the only coloured word.


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## giosdad

timbo said:


> I would assume the other words would be white. Kingston would be the only coloured word.


I agree. That seems to be how it is in Bill's mock-up on the first thread.

(At least an off white to match the indices when the lume is not charged)


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## Rob T

Still like this one:

*MIIK*
*ROTOR-WINDING*​
KINGSTON
*200m/660ft*​
"KINGSTON" in red or gilt, and "SELF-WINDING" if not a copyright issue.

Rob.


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## NWP627

timbo said:


> *MIIK*
> *KINGSTON*​
> *200m/660ft*
> SELFWINDING
> 
> ​
> I modified the previous dial design a bit. :roll:
> 
> I like this - KINGSTON and mIIk somehow go together (all the Is and Ks, I guess). Also like the KINGSTON in the smaller font and matching 'gilt' colour that matches the index ring. The two top lines also suggests a 'crown' without being too obvious.


I like this design as well for all the stated reasons.
N


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## -thorsten-

I know there's been a bit of back and forth on the issue of 'automatic' and 'self-winding', etc. What about 'auto-winding'? Apologies if this has been discussed already.


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## siggy

giosdad said:


> I agree. That seems to be how it is in Bill's mock-up on the first thread.
> 
> (At least an off white to match the indices when the lume is not charged)


I sort of think ( and hope ) that in Bill's first illustration the intention was to represent the original colours of the dial printing, ie gold printing for the minute track and most of the writing and sliver for a single line of text but metallic colours probably weren't available in his design software.

The reason I like the gold printing is that when you are not really looking for the print it will blend in with gloss black dial and not draw attention to itself. In the screenshots below the text on the dial is hardly visible in most of the pics and gives the sort of simplicity of dial layout and sense of style that people like about Panerai with no miniute track. The gilt printing gives you the best of both worlds IMO, it's there when you need it and not very noticeable when you don't.

I think any white printing will have too much contrast against the black dial and stand out too much, detracting from the hands and hour markers and makes the watch look more like a 5513 hommage than a 6538. Of course if some want that sort of sporty look then Bill might offer it as an option for a more modern looking dial.

regards

siggy



Yao said:


> _Disclosure: These images are for reference only. This watch project is in no way shape or form connected to or sanctioned by EON Productions or Rolex S.A._


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## Reintitan

timbo said:


> *MIIK*
> *KINGSTON*​
> *200m/660ft*
> SELFWINDING
> 
> ​
> I modified the previous dial design a bit. :roll:
> 
> I like this - KINGSTON and mIIk somehow go together (all the Is and Ks, I guess). Also like the KINGSTON in the smaller font and matching 'gilt' colour that matches the index ring. The two top lines also suggests a 'crown' without being too obvious.


IMO, *If* it's decided to put "AUTOMATIC", "SELF-WINDING", etc. on the dial along with the name of the watch "KINGSTON", then "KINGSTON" should be underneath the depth rating and "AUTOMATIC" should be directly beneath the MKII logo.

My reasoning is because in the original 6538 "OYSTER PERPETUAL" is directly under the Rolex logo and in Rolex parlance "PERPETUAL" means an automatic movement. (And of course, "OYTSTER" refers to the trademarked Oyster case).


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## jhobbs

Reintitan said:


> IMO, *If* it's decided to put "AUTOMATIC", "SELF-WINDING", etc. on the dial along with the name of the watch "KINGSTON", then "KINGSTON" should be underneath the depth rating and "AUTOMATIC" should be directly beneath the MKII logo.
> 
> My reasoning is because in the original 6538 "OYSTER PERPETUAL" is directly under the Rolex logo and in Rolex parlance "PERPETUAL" means an automatic movement. (And of course, "OYTSTER" refers to the trademarked Oyster case).


That would be my vote as well.


----------



## Rafael_T

*The more I look at Bill's "Draft" sketch*

the more I like his layout. I think the only thing to do to it would be to tweak the sizes of indices, the gilt colored details, gold hands; basically dialing (no pun intended) in the proportions and colors of the different part of the dial/ hands combo.










I really like the MKII by itself and the rest of the info under the pinion.

I find it quite balanced.

Of course, just as important will be the design of the bezel insert.


----------



## usc1

Mr. Yao.

How bright is the gold gilt around the dial on a real 6538? I have only seen pictures and it is quite difficult to grasp. 

Will you attempt to match the color to the tee?

Thanks.

Reagrds,
Peter


----------



## lichmd

Have we decided that the name "Kingston" is it?


----------



## Yao

From the pictures that I have it is relatively bright. Just slightly duller than the hands. Someone else in the thread pointed out that the indicies sometimes appear to disappear and that is consistent with how plated hands also behave. When the paint/plating reflects something dark they appear to disappear.



usc1 said:


> Mr. Yao.
> 
> How bright is the gold gilt around the dial on a real 6538? I have only seen pictures and it is quite difficult to grasp.
> 
> Will you attempt to match the color to the tee?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Reagrds,
> Peter


----------



## Yao

*No not yet....*

we will have to decide soon though. Probably in the next week.



lichmd said:


> Have we decided that the name "Kingston" is it?


----------



## k7lro

Reintitan said:


> IMO, *If* it's decided to put "AUTOMATIC", "SELF-WINDING", etc. on the dial along with the name of the watch "KINGSTON", then "KINGSTON" should be underneath the depth rating and "AUTOMATIC" should be directly beneath the MKII logo.
> 
> My reasoning is because in the original 6538 "OYSTER PERPETUAL" is directly under the Rolex logo and in Rolex parlance "PERPETUAL" means an automatic movement. (And of course, "OYTSTER" refers to the trademarked Oyster case).


Something like this?


----------



## Yao

I have to give that a day or two to sink in. Look strange to me but not because its bad but just because its different from the image I have been obsessing over for the last year :-d



k7lro said:


> Something like this?


----------



## Rafael_T

*Agreed, not bad at all. Could you put the gold hands in?*

:-!


----------



## Rob T

k7lro said:


> Something like this?


PERFECT!

Couple of additions:
Guilt hands
"Big ball" sweep hand 
Red triangle on the bezel 
"BREVET" and "mIIk" on the crown
Sterile polished back w/ stamped S/N

and call it JOB DONE!

Give yourself the rest of the afternoon off.

Cheers,

Rob.


----------



## esantelli

bill,
is selfwinding instead of automatic out of the running
eds


----------



## jhobbs

I'd vote for Self-Winding vs. automatic. I'd also like to see the original mock up without automatic. I'm thinking the less cluttered the dial is the better.


----------



## Reintitan

*Bingo!*



k7lro said:


> Something like this?


That's it. Add gilt hands and a red triangle on the bezel insert and she's ready for production :-d

Good work :-!


----------



## Yao

*I think we can use it....*

I didn't see any indication that Rolex had that trademarked so its an option for the time being. For example the word "Precision" is actually trademarked by Rolex. However there isn't anyway we can use the "Self-Winding" curved like you see on a 7928. That has to be covered by copyright I would think.












esantelli said:


> bill,
> is selfwinding instead of automatic out of the running
> eds


----------



## esantelli

*Re: I think we can use it....*

what if you place it under the MKII, similar balance to the original
eds


----------



## Yao

*I will work it up...*

and we'll see what you guys think.



esantelli said:


> what if you place it under the MKII, similar balance to the original
> eds


----------



## k7lro

*Re: Agreed, not bad at all. Could you put the gold hands in?*



Rafael_T said:


> :-!


I'll leave that to the experts. Hope you weren't offended Bill. ;-)


----------



## grosby

Have just signed up to this great project!:-!

Just wondering whether there will be 3-6-9 explorer dial offered like this.....










pic from "Vintage Rolex Watches"


----------



## countchocula8

I have plenty of watches with C3 greenish lume... was hoping for something different. BGW9...almost as bright as C3, but BLUE!!! Vote for it!


----------



## siggy

I think people's idea of C3 lume as the brightest, Bill even puts it as the brightest in the survey question, is a little bit misleading as different lumes are brightest at different times after exposure to light.

Any superluminova can only absorb a limited amount of light energy and therefore has a fixed amount of light energy it can re-emit, one of the differences is how fast it re- emits that energy. C3 re-emits the energy at a faster rate therefore it appears to be the brightest after it has been in the dark for a few minutes when compared to BGW9. After emitting the light energy at such a fast rate it runs out of energy faster than BGW9 so therefore at a later time BGW9 is the brightest not C3.

You can see this if you look at Moby's third lume test in the dive watch reference material ( https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=30768 ), at the beginning all the C3 watches look very bright but by the time of the last photo, only an hour after they have been in the dark the BGW9 of the Citizen 1000m is clearly starting to outperform the other lumes. This outperformance will continue and get more noticeable the longer the time goes on, so 5 or 6 hours later in what would be the middle of the night there would be no contest, BGW9 wins easliy as the brightest.

regards

siggy

( PS. for a more scientific experiment the thickness and area of the lume would need to be constant on each watch but Moby's test is a good start)


----------



## jhobbs

Hope your post sways some future votes. I'd really like to see this watch with a different lume......so please vote BGW9


----------



## siggy

jhobbs said:


> Hope your post sways some future votes. I'd really like to see this watch with a different lume......so please vote BGW9


I can't say that I'm not personally biased but I do think I have the facts on my side  .

It all depends on Bill's casting vote, but why not make it easy for him ;-)

regards

siggy


----------



## Yao

One question about the Citizen and BG W9....I was under the impression that BG W9 came up just last year and the Citizen watch and that lume predates the introduction.... Anyone know the answer to that?



siggy said:


> I can't say that I'm not personally biased but I do think I have the facts on my side  .
> 
> It all depends on Bill's casting vote, but why not make it easy for him ;-)
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


----------



## siggy

Yao said:


> One question about the Citizen and BG W9....I was under the impression that BG W9 came up just last year and the Citizen watch and that lume predates the introduction.... Anyone know the answer to that?


Bill

I was totally guessing that BG W9 is the lume used on the Citizen ( maybe previously it was not generally available and a proprietary Citizen coumpound ? ) , I have no evidence whatsoever.

I have tested the Citizen's lume qualities personally though, very impressive.

I think there are only a certain number of different strontium aluminate compounds that are used to produce each different coloured lume. Maybe Citzen's lume is either the same or differs only slightly from BGW9, in particle size, or manufacturing method. I'm guessing the underlying chemistry is the same, producing similarly long emittance qualities relative to the other colours and any variance is the result of more superficial differences.

I'm a bit out of my depth to go into any more detail, hope someone else can help.

regards

siggy


----------



## Yao

*All I can say is "maybe"*

Its a watch that I really want to re-create for my own selfish reasons but I don't want to add to many options as it will make it difficult to actually deliver all the watches in a reasonable time frame.



grosby said:


> Have just signed up to this great project!:-!
> 
> Just wondering whether there will be 3-6-9 explorer dial offered like this.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pic from "Vintage Rolex Watches"


----------



## Yao

*I will have some more*

mock-ups for your review tomorrow afternoon.

Based on the poll my inclination is to offer one set of dials and hands in the C3 and one set based on the BG W9. After talking with a few of my suppliers it would seem that Siggy's observations are accurate.

The lume qualities:

* Daylight color of the lume 
* Brightness after 30 minutes
* Longevity of the lume (how many hours it glows on one charge)

it seems are essentially part of a whole. Its nearly impossible to improve one without partially sacrificing another quality.

In any event it seems that those that want C3 feel strongly about it. However from a design and historical perspective I believe that the original Tritium lume on the 6538s was more than likely white at the time of manufacture. The C3 I think will be slightly green in appearance in daylight. So I will go with the majority in producing the dials, hands and bezels with C3. I will also be making another set of the same parts in BG W9 because I feel that it is probably a better fit overall with the design and spirit of making a watch that Bond might have chosen. It won't add much to the cost because the hands and dials can still be ordered together and share much of the same manufacturing processing time.


----------



## Galpo

*Re: I will have some more*



Yao said:


> mock-ups for your review tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> Based on the poll my inclination is to offer one set of dials and hands in the C3 and one set based on the BG W9. After talking with a few of my suppliers it would seem that Siggy's observations are accurate.
> 
> The lume qualities:
> 
> * Daylight color of the lume
> * Brightness after 30 minutes
> * Longevity of the lume (how many hours it glows on one charge)
> 
> it seems are essentially part of a whole. Its nearly impossible to improve one without partially sacrificing another quality.
> 
> In any event it seems that those that want C3 feel strongly about it. However from a design and historical perspective I believe that the original Tritium lume on the 6538s was more than likely white at the time of manufacture. The C3 I think will be slightly green in appearance in daylight. So I will go with the majority in producing the dials, hands and bezels with C3. I will also be making another set of the same parts in BG W9 because I feel that it is probably a better fit overall with the design and spirit of making a watch that Bond might have chosen. It won't add much to the cost because the hands and dials can still be ordered together and share much of the same manufacturing processing time.


+ a big 1 on the BG W9 :-!

I'm happy that there will be a "white" option, it's important to try staying as close to the Bond version as possible. that's the whole idea in the first place, isn't it?
A lot has happened in the watch industry since 1950 (like C3) but if it's making the dial "walk away" from the original, so IMHO it is not what this watch needs.
All I'm saying is C3 is fine for who ever prefers it, I'll stick to white.

(BTW, excuse me for my poor English, 
Please don't think that I'm an idiot ;-)) 
Cheers,
Galpo


----------



## siggy

*Re: All I can say is "maybe"*



Yao said:


> Its a watch that I really want to re-create for my own selfish reasons but I don't want to add to many options as it will make it difficult to actually deliver all the watches in a reasonable time frame.


Hardly selfish, if that one is available then my choices are the classic gilt dial and a 3-6-9 gilt dial as the spare. Easy, problem solved ;-)

regards

siggy


----------



## Duarte

*Re: I will have some more*



Galpo said:


> + a big 1 on the BG W9 :-!


x 2


----------



## SeikoSickness

Yao said:


> One question about the Citizen and BG W9....I was under the impression that BG W9 came up just last year and the Citizen watch and that lume predates the introduction.... Anyone know the answer to that?


Yes, BG W9 is very new and the first watch I was able to purchase just about a year ago was the OCEAN7 LM-6. I really like the lume. It requires a slightly longer charge to be close to C3 initial brightness, but it lasts throughout the night.

I'm happy to hear that there will be at least two dial/hand options with regards to lume. With the initial pre-order of being able to have almost enough spares to create a second watch I just might have to hunt down a second movement and get one put together to have both sets of lume!


----------



## tallguy

*Re: I will have some more*



Yao said:


> mock-ups for your review tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> Based on the poll my inclination is to offer one set of dials and hands in the C3 and one set based on the BG W9. After talking with a few of my suppliers it would seem that Siggy's observations are accurate.
> 
> The lume qualities:
> 
> * Daylight color of the lume
> * Brightness after 30 minutes
> * Longevity of the lume (how many hours it glows on one charge)
> 
> it seems are essentially part of a whole. Its nearly impossible to improve one without partially sacrificing another quality.
> 
> In any event it seems that those that want C3 feel strongly about it. However from a design and historical perspective I believe that the original Tritium lume on the 6538s was more than likely white at the time of manufacture. The C3 I think will be slightly green in appearance in daylight. So I will go with the majority in producing the dials, hands and bezels with C3. I will also be making another set of the same parts in BG W9 because I feel that it is probably a better fit overall with the design and spirit of making a watch that Bond might have chosen. It won't add much to the cost because the hands and dials can still be ordered together and share much of the same manufacturing processing time.


Wow...best of both worlds!


----------



## tallguy

*Re: All I can say is "maybe"*



Yao said:


> Its a watch that I really want to re-create for my own selfish reasons but I don't want to add to many options as it will make it difficult to actually deliver all the watches in a reasonable time frame.


One vote for sticking with your vision, closing the deal, and getting those babies into production!:-!:-!:-!


----------



## sschum

*Re: I will have some more*



Yao said:


> In any event it seems that those that want C3 feel strongly about it. However from a design and historical perspective I believe that the original Tritium lume on the 6538s was more than likely white at the time of manufacture. The C3 I think will be slightly green in appearance in daylight. So I will go with the majority in producing the dials, hands and bezels with C3. I will also be making another set of the same parts in BG W9 because I feel that it is probably a better fit overall with the design and spirit of making a watch that Bond might have chosen. It won't add much to the cost because the hands and dials can still be ordered together and share much of the same manufacturing processing time.


Bill. I voted for the C3 before the BG W9 info supplied by Siggy and you. I am now firmly in the BG W9 camp. More importantly, I want to echo Steve's (tallguy's) comments that you should stick to your vision and get this into production. I have wanted someone to make this hommage for many, many years, and I am delighted that you are the one who has decided to make it. And this is relevant to another point. I will proudly wear this as a MKII watch, full stop. It doesn't need faux Bond or Rolex references, like Brevet on the crown or Octopussy on the dial. :-d Keep it as a MKII tool watch and I for one will be ecstatic. :-!:-!:-!

Scott


----------



## lichmd

*Re: I will have some more*



sschum said:


> bill. I voted for the c3 before the bg w9 info supplied by siggy and you. I am now firmly in the bg w9 camp. More importantly, i want to echo steve's (tallguy's) comments that you should stick to your vision and get this into production. I have wanted someone to make this hommage for many, many years, and i am delighted that you are the one who has decided to make it. And this is relevant to another point. I will proudly wear this as a mkii watch, full stop. It doesn't need faux bond or rolex references, like brevet on the crown or octopussy on the dial. :-d keep it as a mkii tool watch and i for one will be ecstatic. :-!:-!:-!
> 
> Scott


+1

j


----------



## tallguy

*Re: I will have some more*



sschum said:


> I have wanted someone to make this hommage for many, many years, and I am delighted that you are the one who has decided to make it. And this is relevant to another point. I will proudly wear this as a MKII watch, full stop. It doesn't need faux Bond or Rolex references, like Brevet on the crown or Octopussy on the dial. :-d Keep it as a MKII tool watch and I for one will be ecstatic. :-!:-!:-!
> 
> Scott


Well said!!!|>|>|>|>


----------



## rcarbonetti

I originally voted for C3. Can I change it to BGW9 now? The blue lume looks good as I have two Citizen watches and the color is very pleasant to look at.


----------



## k7lro

*Re: All I can say is "maybe"*



tallguy said:


> One vote for sticking with your vision, closing the deal, and getting those babies into production!:-!:-!:-!











Get er done


----------



## giosdad

*Re: All I can say is "maybe"*



Yao said:


> Its a watch that I really want to re-create for my own selfish reasons but I don't want to add to many options as it will make it difficult to actually deliver all the watches in a reasonable time frame.


Another vote for sticking with your vision.

In Yao we trust.


----------



## brian31

*Bill, will the indices be applied or painted on?*

If painted, it appears that the markers will have a gilt colored outline?


----------



## brian31

*Bill, will the indices be applied or painted on?*

If painted on, it appears that the markers will have a gilt colored outline?

Thanks


----------



## brian31

I've always much preferred "white" colored lume (like modern Rolex Sub) to the "green-tinted" lume found on Omega SMPs (especially in sunlight), to me the green tint is quite unattractive.

I wonder how much of a green tint the C3 would have to it? I haven't voted yet but will probably vote for the BGW9. Plus I think blue glow is far nicer than green glow, and more unique as well


----------



## Yao

*Painted on...*

like the original.



brian31 said:


> If painted, it appears that the markers will have a gilt colored outline?


----------



## Yao

*yes*

like the original.



brian31 said:


> If painted on, it appears that the markers will have a gilt colored outline?
> 
> Thanks


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

brian31 said:


> I've always much preferred "white" colored lume (like modern Rolex Sub) to the "green-tinted" lume found on Omega SMPs (especially in sunlight), to me the green tint is quite unattractive.
> 
> I wonder how much of a green tint the C3 would have to it? I haven't voted yet but will probably vote for the BGW9. Plus I think blue glow is far nicer than green glow, and more unique as well


Hey Bill, maybe I should change my vote. I went with C3 because I thought it was closer to the original tritium, but if the experts say it was more white than that, I'd rather have BG W9. Either sounds like it would give the necessary brightness and burn time, and I'd rather stay with whatever was original on the 6538.

On that subject, are the experts sure that the hands were gilt/gold? If so, fine; but most of the photos look like silver color to me, and a lot of the time stainless steel can look bronze-ish in certain light. I just wanted to ask that we make sure.

And if a 3-6-9 military dial is offered as an alternate, that would be wicked to pick up as an alternate.

PS: Did you say that "Precision" was registered as a trademark by Rolex? Interesting, as Gruen used it for decades, most likely before Rolex. Or so I thought.


----------



## Docwein

*I vote for the original concept.*

:-!


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

Ah hah! Tallguy posted over on the "images" thread, a link to some photos of a 6538 that looked unrestored. The lume DOES look like it started out much whiter than C3. So color me corrected, and count me in for BG W9.

Also note, the hands on this one look silver, not gold colored.









My thanks to Tallguy for the post.


----------



## tallguy

JDS (Ohio) said:


> Ah hah! Tallguy posted over on the "images" thread, a link to some photos of a 6538 that looked unrestored. The lume DOES look like it started out much whiter than C3. So color me corrected, and count me in for BG W9.
> 
> Also note, the hands on this one look silver, not gold colored.
> 
> My thanks to Tallguy for the post.


Thanks John, but they were originally posted by "timbo" on the first page of the project kingston thread!I just copied them over, as they were sooooo sweet!;-) i'd love to see our watch look identical to this one, save for the writing, with a riveted bracelet.....yeah baby!


----------



## Yao

*Text placement.....*

let me know what your feedback is. The name is still a placeholder at this point. As one of you noted earlier in this thread the "yellow" on the dials is meant to represent gold but its not very metallic looking because that isn't one of those effects I have had time to learn on this software.

I made the hands gold here. But someone please let me know if this is true to the film. The hands looks silver to me in the film. But at least you will see what the dial/hands would look like if there were all gold-tone. Per Siggy's observation I have also updated the minute hand to look more like the original.

I have talked to my dial mfg and they have done a lot of gold printed dials, just not for me ;-).


----------



## Ken268

*Re: Text placement.....*

Bill:

Because of the balanced look, I am leaning towards the dial layout as you've shown in the southwest corner.

But the space below your brand name is an important piece of real estate and the word "Automatic" (or "Self Winding" for that matter), IMHO does not evoke the same emotions as the tagline "Oyster Perpetual" does for Rolex.

Do you have a two- or three-word motto for your watches/company other than "Custom & Swiss Made Watches"?

Best,

Ken


----------



## Steve356

Bill, this looks very nice, but IMHO , the name "kingston" should go under the logo at the 12 o'clock mark, and the "self-winding" should go the 6 o'clock mark below the depth rating. other than that, looking good 

The hands would probably look better as regular steel hands IMHO. I can't imagine gold hands not looking out of place on a watch like this. How about making the luminous material on the hands slightly gold-colored and keeping the hands silvery steel ?


----------



## colinman.77

Except for the upper right corner version, I think all of those look really great. I am not a fan of sterile dials, and I think a little bit of text really adds a lot to the look. 
My vote is still for "Kingston" printed on the dial. I think it is a great name for a watch, and it really fits without being cheesy or an overt Bond referenceb-).


----------



## sschum

Lower left, please. But I could be happy with any of them. Upper right is my least favorite.


----------



## Reintitan

*Bottom left >>>*



Yao said:


> let me know what your feedback is. The name is still a placeholder at this point. As one of you noted earlier in this thread the "yellow" on the dials is meant to represent gold but its not very metallic looking because that isn't one of those effects I have had time to learn on this software.
> 
> I made the hands gold here. But someone please let me know if this is true to the film. The hands looks silver to me in the film. But at least you will see what the dial/hands would look like if there were all gold-tone. Per Siggy's observation I have also updated the minute hand to look more like the original.
> 
> I have talked to my dial mfg and they have done a lot of gold printed dials, just not for me ;-).


I like the bottom left dial. I prefer "AUTOMATIC" to "SELF-WINDING".


----------



## atilla4346

Bottom left is my favourite.


----------



## Galpo

*Re: Text placement.....*



Yao said:


> let me know what your feedback is...


I prefer upper left, but all are fine with me.

I hope you don't mind, I took your drawing and tried to give the gold colour more "shiny" feel to it. It's far from reality, but if it fine with you, I'll try to make it more realistic:









I also added a dial with C3 lume as I think it would look:








Please let me know if I've crossed any forbidden lines here :rodekaart
Cheers,
Galpo


----------



## giosdad

*Re: Text placement.....*

I like the top left and bottom left the best. If self-winding can be used I prefer that one. I don't have a problem with swapping the Kingston name to below the MKII logo either.

I like the strile dial the least. (Top right and would prefer that)

I am not so sure I like the gilt hands but would prefer that they are same as the original so if they are silver or gilt that it what this watch should have, so I look forward to the Bond film experts to advise what it was.


----------



## rcarbonetti

*Re: Text placement.....*

Bill, I like the bottom right dial . Have you considered Nassau instead of Kingston? The look of the dial is clean, and does not tell you more than is needed in my opinion.


----------



## grosby

Bottom 2 dials.....the 'self-windng' moniker seems a bit out of balance.


----------



## skogarn

*Re: Text placement.....*

In the pictures on the link below, it looks like the hands have a gold tone.

http://www.chrono24.com/en/others/p...D=1278583&picnum=6&ow=266&oh=399&wascaptcha=0


----------



## Rob T

*Re: Text placement.....*

Wow - they all look good!

Having to choose, I don't like the "sterile" dial at top right - just too bare IMHO.

My favorite would have to be the top left, but the lower right looks pretty darn good to.

I prefer "self-winding" over "automatic" - has a more vintage ring to it.

Also the guilt hands look terriffic! These were the most common on the very earliest of Rolex subs, and I don't think I have ever seen a guilt dial & silver handset combined on an original watch so its a pretty good bet the Bond sub had guilt hands to match the dial.

Rob


----------



## Dave E

Top left or bottom right for me. I like the "Self-winding" it has a vintage air about it. Don't like "Automatic", do like having "Kingston" on the dial.


----------



## GraniteQuarry

One of the lower row for me please - immaterial whether says automatic or not, but not keen on self winding.

Poll !!! :-d


----------



## usc1

The bottom left or upper left dial looks great. I am not too hung up on the self-winding or the automatic wording. Either would be fine. 

I am unsure of the gold hands. I have never seen a 6538 with gold hands before. I would prefer them to remain silver.

Project looks like it is coming along quite well. :-!


----------



## Donald Grant

I like the two on the left. I think "self-winding" sounds more vintage than "Automatic", however.

DG


----------



## Tetraflop

What´s with
___MIIK___
HISTORIC TIMEPIECES

instead of
Automatic or Self Winding


____________
Dietmar


----------



## MDS

*Re: Bottom left >>>*



Reintitan said:


> I like the bottom left dial. I prefer "AUTOMATIC" to "SELF-WINDING".


I also prefer "automatic"...I like the lower right best, followed by the lower left...

I like the gold hands and white lume, but if the original had steel hands, thats is fine too.


----------



## k7lro

Donald Grant said:


> I like the two on the left. I think "self-winding" sounds more vintage than "Automatic", however.
> 
> DG


Either of the two on the left would work for me but I also agree with DG on the self-winding aspect.


----------



## es335

jds (ohio) said:


> ah hah! Tallguy posted over on the "images" thread, a link to some photos of a 6538 that looked unrestored. The lume does look like it started out much whiter than c3. So color me corrected, and count me in for bg w9.
> 
> Also note, the hands on this one look silver, not gold colored.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my thanks to tallguy for the post.


+1


----------



## lichmd

In order of preference:
Lower left
lower right
Upper Left
Upper right

Prefer Automatic to Self-Winding

Have no preference for color of the hands, as long as they are as authentic as possible. I'm going to watch From Russia With Love tonight and freeze frame, see if I can distinguish hand color.
Cheers,
J


----------



## NWP627

*Re: Text placement.....*



Ken268 said:


> Bill:
> 
> Because of the balanced look, I am leaning towards the dial layout as you've shown in the southwest corner.
> 
> But the space below your brand name is an important piece of real estate and the word "Automatic" (or "Self Winding" for that matter), IMHO does not evoke the same emotions as the tagline "Oyster Perpetual" does for Rolex.
> 
> Do you have a two- or three-word motto for your watches/company other than "Custom & Swiss Made Watches"?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Ken


Bill,
I agree with Ken that the space below your brand name is very important. Perhaps the term "Limited Edition" can be placed there in lieu of automatic, or self-winding and then leave the rest as shown in upper-left or lower-left.
N


----------



## customV2

all shown dials look really good. the lower twos are great, there the right one would be the best one for me.
the more I read about this project,the more I think about how to get the money, without postponing other projects....
greetings from Hamburg, Germany


----------



## bompi

I'd vote for the two on the left ; I'd prefer Self-Winding but Automatic would be OK anyway.


----------



## jgallo

Here is a close-up of the dial of what is suppose to be a 6538 from 1957. Found this one on TZ. It does show it having silver hands.


----------



## usc1

*Re: Text placement.....*



NWP627 said:


> Bill,
> I agree with Ken that the space below your brand name is very important. Perhaps the term "Limited Edition" can be placed there in lieu of automatic, or self-winding and then leave the rest as shown in upper-left or lower-left.
> N


That is actually a wonderful suggestion. I too vote that automatic be taken out and replaced with "Limited Edition." It makes the watch a bit different from your other lines.

How about:

MIIK​Limited Edition

Kingston 
200m=660ft​
​


----------



## Reintitan

*I don't like that idea at all >>>*



usc1 said:


> That is actually a wonderful suggestion. I too vote that automatic be taken out and replaced with "Limited Edition." It makes the watch a bit different from your other lines.
> 
> How about:
> 
> MIIK​Limited Edition
> 
> Kingston
> 200m=660ft​


I don't like that idea at all. We all know it's a limited edition. If you need it in writing put it on the caseback but leave it off the dial completely.


----------



## Recht

*Re: I don't like that idea at all >>>*



Reintitan said:


> I don't like that idea at all. We all know it's a limited edition. If you need it in writing put it on the caseback but leave it off the dial completely.


 I agree. There is no need for Limited Edition on the dial.


----------



## TOKI188

The dials look great Bill. 

My preference would be to go with the upper left. I agree that "self-winding" has more of a timeless/vintage sound to it. The lower left would be my second choice.

As for the name, I've really come to like "Kingston".

Arthur


----------



## Duarte

*Re: Text placement.....*

Top left, Self-winding. Silver hands please.


----------



## goz211

*Re: Text placement.....*

Top left or bottom right.
Any consideration to have the correct meter to foot conversion on the dial? 600 feet is only 182 meters. 200 meters = 656 feet.


----------



## Yao

*Now you ask too much*

;-):-d Yes I will fix that. Thank you for correcting that mistake!



goz211 said:


> Top left or bottom right.
> Any consideration to have the correct meter to foot conversion on the dial? 600 feet is only 182 meters. 200 meters = 656 feet.


----------



## Dave E

I should add, silver hands by preference.


----------



## Yao

*Absolutely not....*

that is fantastic thanks. :-!



Galpo said:


> I prefer upper left, but all are fine with me.
> 
> I hope you don't mind, I took your drawing and tried to give the gold colour more "shiny" feel to it. It's far from reality, but if it fine with you, I'll try to make it more realistic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also added a dial with C3 lume as I think it would look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please let me know if I've crossed any forbidden lines here :rodekaart
> Cheers,
> Galpo


----------



## Yao

*Can anyone provide a definitive...*

opinion about the color of the hands of the watch used in the movies?

I have seen pictures of the ref. 6538 with both silver and gold toned hands. I think the movie watch looks like it has gold toned hands but I can't be certain.


----------



## GraniteQuarry

*Re: Text placement.....*



Galpo said:


>


^^^
That looks pretty close to the Bond screen capture, kinda greeney ?? ;-)

Can i make one further suggestion - if KINGSTON is going to be placed under the depth rating, that it be widened/spaced slightly to be the same overall text width, as seen here below -


----------



## Yao

*The screen cap from Goldfinger*

is actually in a dark room. Its possible that what you are seeing there is the lume starting to glow.



GraniteQuarry said:


> ^^^
> That looks pretty close to the Bond screen capture, kinda greeney ?? ;-)
> 
> Can i make one further suggestion - if KINGSTON is going to be placed under the depth rating, that it be widened/spaced slightly to be the same overall text width, as seen here below -


----------



## bpax

*Re: Text placement.....*

Bottom left one gets my vote.


----------



## Donald Grant

*Re: Can anyone provide a definitive...*



Yao said:


> opinion about the color of the hands of the watch used in the movies?
> 
> I have seen pictures of the ref. 6538 with both silver and gold toned hands. I think the movie watch looks like it has gold toned hands but I can't be certain.


Gold colored hands.

DG


----------



## NWP627

*Re: I don't like that idea at all >>>*



Reintitan said:


> I don't like that idea at all. We all know it's a limited edition. If you need it in writing put it on the caseback but leave it off the dial completely.


I think most of us also know that it's an automatic!
N


----------



## Ken268

*Re: I don't like that idea at all >>>*



NWP627 said:


> I think most of us also know that it's an automatic!
> N


What about a one or two-word phrase that speaks to the MIIK brand itself or to the character of the watch?

"Oyster Perpetual" seemed to hint at the type of case and movement, and Submariner was the name of the watch...


----------



## usc1

*Re: I don't like that idea at all >>>*



Reintitan said:


> I don't like that idea at all. We all know it's a limited edition. If you need it in writing put it on the caseback but leave it off the dial completely.


Fair enough, but on the same note why put automatic on the dial as we all know it is an automatic? :think:


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

*Re: Text placement.....*



Yao said:


> let me know what your feedback is....


My preferred choice would be upper left version, the text seems to balance out closer to the original.

Dials in order of preference:
Upper left - "SELF WINDING", it stays closer to the length of text ratio to brand logo that the original watch has - "OYSTER PERPETUAL", "AUTOMATIC" just isn't long enough to do that. Besides, it adds an air of the 1950s-60s to the watch.
Lower left - "AUTOMATIC" is alright, just not as prportionally balanced - see above.
Lower right - neither "Automatic" nor 'Self Winding" well, I'd still buy it, but it won't look quite the same.
Upper right.... well, it just flat out looks to me like it is lacking something, a little naked. With no name on the dial, no auto or self winding; it looks like a dial that started out to be sterile but changed it's mind at the last minute.
My bet is the hands were silver color, not gold. Unless some Rolex expert can definitively state otherwise, I think the silver hands (SS I'm assuming) are the way to go. Photos of vintage pieces that I'm seeing online all seem to have silver. As for the Dr No screen shot, the yellowish lighting of the lighter's flame might account for that. But just as on the lume, my vote is to stay with whatever it was real life; if that turns out to be gold colored , so be it.

And keep KINGSTON. Not only does it evoke the story better than "NASSAU" does, and is infinitely better than any more overt Bond reference, but it is again a little bit closer in text length to the original 6538's "SUBMARINER".


----------



## countchocula8

*Re: Text placement.....*

I agree with everyone here who prefers silver hands. I just think gold hands will be too gaudy/blingy for my taste.


----------



## tallguy

*Re: Text placement.....*



countchocula8 said:


> I agree with everyone here who prefers silver hands. I just think gold hands will be too gaudy/blingy for my taste.


I agree....gold as an option would be fine, but if they became mandatory it would kill the thing for meo|:rodekaart


----------



## Farrell

*My take*

Silver hands - good thing, I don't want the dial to be too goldie

Bottom left gets my vote. Maybe automatic in white? (again to avoid over golding)

Lume want's to be creamy colour in daylight.

That metallic finish looks great! Well done Galpo dude.

I voted for 4.30, round window, date in gilt (to match dial).


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

*Re: Text placement.....*

"Well, I'm with you fellas!"


----------



## Donald Grant

*Re: Text placement.....*



JDS (Ohio) said:


> My preferred choice would be upper left version, the text seems to balance out closer to the original.
> 
> Dials in order of preference:
> Upper left - "SELF WINDING", it stays closer to the length of text ratio to brand logo that the original watch has - "OYSTER PERPETUAL", "AUTOMATIC" just isn't long enough to do that. Besides, it adds an air of the 1950s-60s to the watch.
> Lower left - "AUTOMATIC" is alright, just not as prportionally balanced - see above.
> Lower right - neither "Automatic" nor 'Self Winding" well, I'd still buy it, but it won't look quite the same.
> Upper right.... well, it just flat out looks to me like it is lacking something, a little naked. With no name on the dial, no auto or self winding; it looks like a dial that started out to be sterile but changed it's mind at the last minute.
> My bet is the hands were silver color, not gold. Unless some Rolex expert can definitively state otherwise, I think the silver hands (SS I'm assuming) are the way to go. Photos of vintage pieces that I'm seeing online all seem to have silver. As for the Dr No screen shot, the yellowish lighting of the lighter's flame might account for that. But just as on the lume, my vote is to stay with whatever it was real life; if that turns out to be gold colored , so be it.
> 
> And keep KINGSTON. Not only does it evoke the story better than "NASSAU" does, and is infinitely better than any more overt Bond reference, but it is again a little bit closer in text length to the original 6538's "SUBMARINER".


According to the book Vintage Rolex Sports Models by Skeet & Urul, the hands were gold not silver. The later Subs like the 5513 had silver hands.

DG


----------



## timbo

*Re: Can anyone provide a definitive...*



Yao said:


> opinion about the color of the hands of the watch used in the movies?
> 
> I have seen pictures of the ref. 6538 with both silver and gold toned hands. I think the movie watch looks like it has gold toned hands but I can't be certain.


I don't know about definitive or not, but here goes. 

If you look at the 'lighter' shot in goldfinger










pretty much every surface that is 'silver' or stainless, is clearly silver 'looking'. Even the stainless dial 'ring' - it's colour near 4 o'clock is clearly silver. The minute hand at 4 o'clock, well, we hum and haw - we can't really tell. If it were silver, I think it would be as obvious as all the other silver coloured parts in the shot. Therefore, (drum roll) the hands must be gold.

imho, of course


----------



## timbo

*Re: Text placement.....*

Really great work, Bill - all of these dials look great. Galpo, nice photoshop work, btw!!

Just my 2centimes on this.

The white lume looks better from my perspective. And I voted for C3 as well. The dial is going to be glossy, right?

I like the top left hand dial with a few changes  Rolex and Tudor weren't afraid of putting lots of text on their dials back then, and still do. I love a sterile dial as much as the next tactical watch freak, but in this case, I think the occasion calls for the original's verbosity.

I like SELF-WINDING - it fills the space nicely under the logo and has that vintage appeal. You might consider dropping the hyphen, and tweaking the kerning so that the letters SELFWINDING are spread out a bit more than the other words. Just try it, i don't know why, but it looks really nice.

200m = 660ft - i can't tell, but it looks like you might have a tilde or a hyphen in there. The original definitely had the equals sign.

Love Kingston, also like Nassau, however I think Kingston has gotten the most salutes on this project's flag-pole.

Someone else mentioned it, but the KINGSTON should fill the same space horizontally as the depth rating - you could tweak font size and/or kerning to achieve that. Maybe it's the same kern setting for SELFWINDING ?


----------



## brian31

*Re: Text placement.....*

Top left for me, I like the "self-winding" slightly better than "automatic". I'm not sure on silver vs. gold hands. Leaning silver, but if gold was the original than maybe that


----------



## Reintitan

*Re: Bottom left >>>*

IMO, this post from the VRF shows the definitive version of the 6538. I say that because it has all of the elements associated with the archetypal vintage big crown Sub: glossy dial with gilt lettering except for the depth rating which is silver; gilt hands with the big meatball on the seconds hand; red triangle on the bezel insert; and minute track on the dial.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/message/1230653644

Note: Please don't post the pictures separately here. They're not mine and they are copyrighted by the owner of this watch. So just link to the post on VRF.


----------



## k7lro

Since DG has provided relative proof that the early ones had gold hands, I'll vote for gold also. I want it to be as close to the original as possible. Gold hands look excellent on the black dial based on the mock-ups. 

Since the first 100 come with a spare set of hands, perhaps it's feasible to make silver an option?


----------



## Reintitan

*Re: I don't like that idea at all >>>*



usc1 said:


> Fair enough, but on the same note why put automatic on the dial as we all know it is an automatic? :think:


That's a good question. On that aspect, I think it's to replace the words "OYSTER PERPETUAL" on the original BC Sub. Oyster referring to the Oyster case and Perpetual being Rolex's term for an automatic movement.


----------



## esantelli

Self-winding
nice vintage ring, too many watches say automatic these days and the length of the script matches original better, maybe in white ?
Silver hands
Great project!
eds


----------



## usc1

I prefer silver hands but if the original had gold hands then I would want gold as well. I want the watch to stick to the original design as much as possible.


----------



## Galpo

*Color of hands >*



Yao said:


> opinion about the color of the hands of the watch used in the movies?
> 
> I have seen pictures of the ref. 6538 with both silver and gold toned hands. I think the movie watch looks like it has gold toned hands but I can't be certain.


Until it came up, my visual memory told me the hands were silver.
I can't be sure right now, after seeing all the refrences.
IMHO it can be done gold or silver as long as it's not "blingy".
As other people have already said, as close to the original
as possible, and the original is only what Bond himself wore.
I watched "Doctor No" yesterday but couldn't decide if the hand
are silver or gold.
Bottom line? GOLD. I'm over 40, gold is fine b-)

BUT (a big but) - gold does not go well with C3 (I think so)
I can tell using the old Artdirector's method - make it Black&white
and you'll see both are very close grey shades, meaning less visability,
or less contrast.

_BGW9:_









_C3_


----------



## GraniteQuarry

Can i throw in this photo for reference, it's an 6536/1 that sold at auction recently, gold hands -










Personally i think GOLD hands are the way to go - i have them on my 1966 gilt dial 5513, it looks fabulously vintage.


----------



## MDS

*Re: Bottom left >>>*



Reintitan said:


> IMO, this post from the VRF shows the definitive version of the 6538. I say that because it has all of the elements associated with the archetypal vintage big crown Sub: glossy dial with gilt lettering except for the depth rating which is silver; gilt hands with the big meatball on the seconds hand; red triangle on the bezel insert; and minute track on the dial.
> 
> http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/message/1230653644
> 
> Note: Please don't post the pictures separately here. They're not mine and they are copyrighted by the owner of this watch. So just link to the post on VRF.


What a watch...hard to argue that those hands are not gold...

silver hands would be fine for th Kingston as well, but I think that gold would really stand out and make the watch different...btw, another vote for Kingston - it looks good on the dial...my $0.02

Mike


----------



## Ctaranti

*Re: Text placement.....*

I much prefer the bottom two and especially the bottom left. Great job!

Chris


----------



## tallguy

*Re: Text placement.....*



tallguy said:


> I agree....gold as an option would be fine, but if they became mandatory it would kill the thing for meo|:rodekaart


OK, OK....I'm _starting_ to come around to the idea of gold hands as wellb-):-x They would certainly be another feature setting this watch apart from the other more modern sub-clones out there.


----------



## jhobbs

*Re: Text placement.....*

I like the bottom right dial choice the best, but could live with the top left or bottom left choice too. Rolex's layout is the crown, their name, and Oyster Perpetual....Bill's is just his logo, I think we should stick with that. Adding self-winding or automatic throws looks like an afterthought to the MKII watch logo, to me it just doesn't look right.


----------



## jhobbs

*Re: Color of hands >*

I've got no problem with the gold hands. If the original in the Bond movies had gold hands then that is what gets my vote. Silver wouldn't bother me either, just prefer whatever the original came with.


----------



## Yao

*I would seem that the hands are actually gold*

or gold toned at the least. Timbo's reasoning I think is sound and my wife, who is a graphic designer, says they are gold. In addition it would seem unusual to pair silver-toned hands with gilt print on the dial. Gold was also a more popular color in the 50s/60s than it is today. While I think there are a number of watches with mixed hand/dial sets It stands to reason that the most likely color is gold.

Of course this is the 21st century and not the 1950s so this is what I propose so that I don't end up making a lot of hands I am not going to use:

* We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like
* We do the silver-toned hands in C3 and BGW9
* We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style.

Let me know what you think....


----------



## rcarbonetti

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*



Yao said:


> or gold toned at the least. Timbo's reasoning I think is sound and my wife, who is a graphic designer, says they are gold. In addition it would seem unusual to pair silver-toned hands with gilt print on the dial. Gold was also a more popular color in the 50s/60s than it is today. While I think there are a number of watches with mixed hand/dial sets It stands to reason that the most likely color is gold.
> 
> Of course this is the 21st century and not the 1950s so this is what I propose so that I don't end up making a lot of hands I am not going to use:
> 
> * We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like
> * We do the silver-toned hands in C3 and BGW9
> * We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style.
> 
> Let me know what you think....


Bill, Your thoughts are right on the money. I vote for the following:

We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like.
We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style.

BTW, Thanks for giving us the chance to participate in a great project.

Robert


----------



## Yao

*Here is an updated shot...*

it seems that the most "votes" were for the bottom left version. Personally I thought that the "Self-Winding" looked a little odd at the 12 o'clock so i came up with a different word "Auto-Winding" that might fit better. Aesthetically I think it looks better but still has that vintage feeling even though I don't think anyone used it before. Let me know what you think of this option.


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

*Re: Text placement.....*



Donald Grant said:


> According to the book Vintage Rolex Sports Models by Skeet & Urul, the hands were gold not silver. The later Subs like the 5513 had silver hands.
> 
> DG


Donald,

You convinced me at least; maybe those silver hands we're seeing were replacements during servicing, tricks of lighting or the monitor, or an alternate version of some kind. I finally found some online images of vintage 6538s (try here) with clearly gilt hands, if anyone is interested. BTW, they don't look half bad either.

But note, if Bill offers both hand finishes, as it sounded he might, then I could conceivably get mine both ways, with the pre-order extras. Life is good.


----------



## usc1

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*



Yao said:


> or gold toned at the least. Timbo's reasoning I think is sound and my wife, who is a graphic designer, says they are gold. In addition it would seem unusual to pair silver-toned hands with gilt print on the dial. Gold was also a more popular color in the 50s/60s than it is today. While I think there are a number of watches with mixed hand/dial sets It stands to reason that the most likely color is gold.
> 
> Of course this is the 21st century and not the 1950s so this is what I propose so that I don't end up making a lot of hands I am not going to use:
> 
> * We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like
> * We do the silver-toned hands in C3 and BGW9
> * We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style.
> 
> Let me know what you think....


I concur that you are on the money.

I originally voted for the C3 lume on the thought that the hands were silver. Since we now know the hands were gold, the BGW9 would a have better color match then the C3.

Nice detective work everyone.


----------



## MDS

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*



Yao said:


> or gold toned at the least. Timbo's reasoning I think is sound and my wife, who is a graphic designer, says they are gold. In addition it would seem unusual to pair silver-toned hands with gilt print on the dial. Gold was also a more popular color in the 50s/60s than it is today. While I think there are a number of watches with mixed hand/dial sets It stands to reason that the most likely color is gold.
> 
> Of course this is the 21st century and not the 1950s so this is what I propose so that I don't end up making a lot of hands I am not going to use:
> 
> * We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like
> * We do the silver-toned hands in C3 and BGW9
> * We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style.
> 
> Let me know what you think....


Seems like everyone should be happy...it works for me.

Mike


----------



## MDS

*Re: Here is an updated shot...*



Yao said:


> it seems that the most "votes" were for the bottom left version. Personally I thought that the "Self-Winding" looked a little odd at the 12 o'clock so i came up with a different word "Auto-Winding" that might fit better. Aesthetically I think it looks better but still has that vintage feeling even though I don't think anyone used it before. Let me know what you think of this option.


Bill,

They all look great really :-!. I think auto-winding is an improvement over self-winding. I'm happy with either auto-winding or automatic. I like the gold hand versions better with the BGW9; but, the silver works as well (also with BGW9).

Mike


----------



## Farrell

*Re: Here is an updated shot...*

Top right please.

I voted natural, but all are good with me.

I concur with your last post re hands, and the second sweep doesn't matter to me.


----------



## bompi

*Re: Here is an updated shot...*

Auto-winding suits me ; it has a vintage touch and I hope it doesn't infringe any copyright or trade mark. I just can't decide whether to choose gold or silver hands ...


----------



## bompi

*Re: Here is an updated shot...*

_oops ! double post_


----------



## NWP627

"* We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like
* We do the silver-toned hands in C3 and BGW9
* We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style."

I agree

 "I came up with a different word "Auto-Winding" that might fit better. Aesthetically I think it looks better but still has that vintage feeling even though I don't think anyone used it before."

I agree as well
Thanks Bill
N


----------



## Rob T

*Re: Text placement.....*



NWP627 said:


> Bill,
> I agree with Ken that the space below your brand name is very important. Perhaps the term "Limited Edition" can be placed there in lieu of automatic, or self-winding and then leave the rest as shown in upper-left or lower-left.
> N


I have to say "Limited Edition" sounds way too Franklin Mint to me. Kind of like "Commemorative" or "Anniversary Edition", if you get the picture.

Rob.


----------



## k7lro

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*



Yao said:


> Of course this is the 21st century and not the 1950s so this is what I propose so that I don't end up making a lot of hands I am not going to use:
> 
> * We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like
> * We do the silver-toned hands in C3 and BGW9
> * We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style.
> 
> Let me know what you think....


Works for me.


----------



## Rob T

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*



Yao said:


> or gold toned at the least. Timbo's reasoning I think is sound and my wife, who is a graphic designer, says they are gold. In addition it would seem unusual to pair silver-toned hands with gilt print on the dial. Gold was also a more popular color in the 50s/60s than it is today. While I think there are a number of watches with mixed hand/dial sets It stands to reason that the most likely color is gold.
> 
> Of course this is the 21st century and not the 1950s so this is what I propose so that I don't end up making a lot of hands I am not going to use:
> 
> * We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like
> * We do the silver-toned hands in C3 and BGW9
> * We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style.
> 
> Let me know what you think....


That seems fair - but if you are doing both gold and silver hands, and C3 and BGW9 dials could gold hands with a C3 dial be a possibility?

BTW - for those concerned about the gold hands looking too *bling*, don't worry. I have a vintage Tudor sub with guilt hands, and the look is quite subtle. More bronze or copper than gold - and hope the MkII hands would have a similar tone.

Cheers,

Rob.


----------



## timbo

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*



Yao said:


> * We do the gold toned hands in only BGW9 assuming that those that want the most original look will also want what the lume original looked like
> * We do the silver-toned hands in C3 and BGW9
> * We consider dropping the production of large meatball sweep since the watch in the movie features the smaller more modern sweep style.
> 
> Let me know what you think....


Perfect! Yeah, definitely ditch the large meatball.


----------



## timbo

*Re: Here is an updated shot...*

AUTO-WINDING is both original and has the same vintage appeal as SELF-WINDING. Nice!


----------



## Yao

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*

We will have to see if there are more people that were counting on C3 and the gold-toned hands. My guess as noted by someone else in this thread is that those hands may look somewhat odd with the greenish tint of the C3 lume. The "colors" may clash a bit.



Rob T said:


> That seems fair - but if you are doing both gold and silver hands, and C3 and BGW9 dials could gold hands with a C3 dial be a possibility?
> 
> BTW - for those concerned about the gold hands looking too *bling*, don't worry. I have a vintage Tudor sub with guilt hands, and the look is quite subtle. More bronze or copper than gold - and hope the MkII hands would have a similar tone.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rob.


----------



## Rob T

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*



Yao said:


> We will have to see if there are more people that were counting on C3 and the gold-toned hands. My guess as noted by someone else in this thread is that those hands may look somewhat odd with the greenish tint of the C3 lume. The "colors" may clash a bit.


Thanks Bill. Yes, I can see that the gold/green mix might look a little odd. I for one am happy to trust your judgement on that.BTW - I really like "Auto-Winding" also. Nice vintage sound, and looks well balanced on the dial.Rob.


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## giosdad

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*

I like the gold hands withthe BGW9 lume. Auto-Winding works for me.

I am OK with losing the large meatball sweep hand.


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## andrewb

*Re: I would seem that the hands are actually gold*

Perfect Bill, who says you cant please everybody all the time!


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## Dave E

I voted C3, but if it looks wrong with the gold hands (and it sounds like it will), then use something else instead! What's the off-white one that glows blue? That could be cool!


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## Dave E

I quite like auto-winding as well, preferable to automatic!


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## boddah

I prefer silver hands as well  gold could look a bit on the blingy side?


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## tallguy

boddah said:


> I prefer silver hands as well  gold could look a bit on the blingy side?


That's my concern:think::-s I think it will take photos of our actual watch with the gold hands for me to make up my mind.....otherwise I'd probably stay safe and go for silver.


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## k7lro

tallguy said:


> That's my concern:think::-s I think it will take photos of our actual watch with the gold hands for me to make up my mind.....otherwise I'd probably stay safe and go for silver.


Did you see some of the Rolex shots that had gold hands? I think the gold hands on the black background are the perfect look for this project.


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## andrewb

*Re: Text placement.....*

I am going for bottom left , the gold /gilt looks great.


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## siggy

It seems a lot of us want the line of text under the MKII logo to balance out the two lines of text above the 6 and to look more like the original. It also seems that we have many suggestions on what that text should be, self winding, auto-winding, automatic? These terms are very generic and I can see the point that other have made that it's obvious that the watch is an automatic so it shouldn't be on the dial.

I would be happy to see a term that is more directly related to MKII, it doesn't have to mean anything, but it could become associated with MKII over time. Oyster Perpetual doesn't really mean anything, what has an oyster got to do with watches? It's significance grew over time and with marketing and now we just accept it without question.
I don't know what or if Bill would like term's associated with MKII. All of my my ideas at the moment sound quite lame, maybe others have better ideas?

regards

siggy


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## bompi

Although they may sound peculiar, Oyster and Perpetual do mean something.
An oyster being supposingly hermetic, the analogy is self-explanatory. And perpetual, although overstated, is another way of expressing the "self-winding" concept.

Sure, they are marketing terms, but reflect innovations Rolex may be proud of at the time they defined the lines to be written on the dial.


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## tallguy

k7lro said:


> Did you see some of the Rolex shots that had gold hands? I think the gold hands on the black background are the perfect look for this project.


I agree....but these are older, "aged", watches......I'm just hoping that brand new gold hands have the same look...b-)


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## timbo

tallguy said:


> I agree....but these are older, "aged", watches......I'm just hoping that brand new gold hands have the same look...b-)


I don't know if Bill has much latitude insofar as the type of gold alloy used in the hands. Perhaps a high copper content alloy like 'rose' gold would be more appropriate for the project?


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## Yao

I'd have to ask but unless they have some hands lying around it will be more likely that we will have to choose the color "sight unseen". I'd prefer to stick to the standard gold color.



timbo said:


> I don't know if Bill has much latitude insofar as the type of gold alloy used in the hands. Perhaps a high copper content alloy like 'rose' gold would be more appropriate for the project?


----------



## tallguy

Yao said:


> I'd have to ask but unless they have some hands lying around it will be more likely that we will have to choose the color "sight unseen". I'd prefer to stick to the standard gold color.


Not to be a pest, Bill, but am I right to assume that you will be able to offer both silver and gold hands? And also, would it be likely that we'd get to see photos of a prototype before choosing? Based on some of the photos, I'm getting kinda psyched about the gold, but I'm still a little scared to commit to them, and I would guess that I am not alone. (yes, we WIS's tend to have commitment issues:-d....as you probably know from all of the cancelled orders you've received over the years!)


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## Marley1966

I took a stroll to the vintage Rolex shop in Burlington Arcade today, here in sunny London. There were 2 Bond submariners side by side in the window m(small crown versions). One had a white minute track (chapter ring) and white printing with silver hands. The other had gold minute track and gold printing with gold hands (as per Connery's watch in the films). Gold did not look blingy. It looked, well, 50s, that nice balance between a dress watch and a tool watch, which is what makes the Bond submariner stand out from later, chunky submariners. Seeing the two side by side, gold wins hands down. Remember, this is a homage to 50s design!


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## Farrell

Oh man, Burlington arcade is a lvoely lovely place - did you notice the PloProf in the Omega shop? The mesh was too small - looked a little ameture tbh.


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## Reintitan

siggy said:


> ...Oyster Perpetual doesn't really mean anything, what has an oyster got to do with watches? It's significance grew over time and with marketing and now we just accept it without question.
> I don't know what or if Bill would like term's associated with MKII. All of my my ideas at the moment sound quite lame, maybe others have better ideas?
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


Rolex founder Hans Wilsdorf coined the term Oyster case for their then-new waterproof cases (which is now a Rolex trademark) because the cases were waterproof like an oyster's shell and protected the movement. This was at a time when most watches weren't even dustproof.

Perpetual is the Rolex terminology for an automatic movement.


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## Yao

*Yes there will be...*

the following selection:

* Gold with BGW9
* Silver with C3 or BG W9

Unless there are serious objections I am not planning on making the gold hands with C3 because the colors will probably clash.



tallguy said:


> Not to be a pest, Bill, but am I right to assume that you will be able to offer both silver and gold hands? And also, would it be likely that we'd get to see photos of a prototype before choosing? Based on some of the photos, I'm getting kinda psyched about the gold, but I'm still a little scared to commit to them, and I would guess that I am not alone. (yes, we WIS's tend to have commitment issues:-d....as you probably know from all of the cancelled orders you've received over the years!)


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## Rafael_T

*I've seen a Bond Sub up close*

and I recall it had silver hands.

Honestly, I don't recall the chapter ring color, though. Which probably means it was the standard white.

But then again, I just found these images on Google:




























There is some good information here:

http://bjsonline.com/watches/articles/0018_1.shtml

And here:










And here:










I just found this one:










Notice the white minute hand.


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## Reintitan

*Perfect selection! >>>*



Yao said:


> the following selection:
> 
> * Gold with BGW9
> * Silver with C3 or BG W9
> 
> Unless there are serious objections I am not planning on making the gold hands with C3 because the colors will probably clash.


Truly you can't complain anymore either way. Ya gots da gold and da silva. Da blue and da green lume That's a wrap folks. Let's close the thread on hands :-d


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## kiwidj

es335 said:


> I'd say go for the C3 and get maximum brightness.


:-!


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## tallguy

*Re: Perfect selection! >>>*



Reintitan said:


> Truly you can't complain anymore either way. Ya gots da gold and da silva. Da blue and da green lume That's a wrap folks. Let's close the thread on hands :-d


+1:-!

Its getting exhausting keeping up with all of these threads


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## k7lro

*Re: Perfect selection! >>>*



Reintitan said:


> Truly you can't complain anymore either way. Ya gots da gold and da silva. Da blue and da green lume That's a wrap folks. Let's close the thread on hands :-d


Might as well call it a wrap on the name also... 75% voted for Kingston.

What's left? The bezel insert? Should this be the standard bezil with minute markers up to 15? Red triangle?










Me? Anxious... no way. :-d


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## siggy

Reintitan said:


> Rolex founder Hans Wilsdorf coined the term Oyster case for their then-new waterproof cases (which is now a Rolex trademark) because the cases were waterproof like an oyster's shell and protected the movement. This was at a time when most watches weren't even dustproof.
> 
> Perpetual is the Rolex terminology for an automatic movement.


I understand and was aware of this, but we only assume it to be normal now after many years of marketing. Originally have the name of a shellfish on a watch may have seemed a bit strange, it's only after the logic has been explained that most people would see the connection. My attempt was to suggest to Bill not to be afraid of something new and original, his logic and word association would also grow over time.

regards

siggy


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## andrewb

*Re: Yes there will be...*

* Gold with BGW9
* Silver with C3 or BG W9

thats everybody happy right there in two lines Bill, Good call.


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## Yao

*One more polll*

to see if we should stop polling :-d

I have the technical drawings for the trip-lock type crown tube assembly. I have to make some modifications to the crown head and I will post a revised picture of the watch. I have to spend the weekend completing the prep of the LRRP parts to get them to Switzerland for assembly. But sometime next week I will post more revised drawings of the case and get to the case back design (which I will trend towards the minimalist). But we should be ready to go (start paying suppliers and ordering parts) by the end of the month.



tallguy said:


> +1:-!
> 
> Its getting exhausting keeping up with all of these threads


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## k7lro

*Re: One more polll*



Yao said:


> to see if we should stop polling :-d
> 
> I have the technical drawings for the trip-lock type crown tube assembly. I have to make some modifications to the crown head and I will post a revised picture of the watch. I have to spend the weekend completing the prep of the LRRP parts to get them to Switzerland for assembly. But sometime next week I will post more revised drawings of the case and get to the case back design (which I will trend towards the minimalist). But we should be ready to go (start paying suppliers and ordering parts) by the end of the month.


Seems that you're right on schedule. It'll be interesting to see if anyone cancels their orders as you finalize the product. I'll bet the number will be real low as long as you stick to your initial vision!


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## Yao

*I don't expect...*

to change much at this point. Just to follow through on what has already been discussed. There's a bit of fine tuning to do and details to flesh out like the case back.



k7lro said:


> Seems that you're right on schedule. It'll be interesting to see if anyone cancels their orders as you finalize the product. I'll bet the number will be real low as long as you stick to your initial vision!


----------



## Farrell

*Re: I don't expect...*

Maybe the same lume should be used in the gold and silver hands so that people can choose whichever hands they want and the lumes don't clash?


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## Yao

*Actually....*

that should be the case if you want BGW9 lume. The gold and silver hands will be offered in BGW9. I am only going to offer the silver hands in C3 because of the greenish tint to the lume. If I misunderstood your suggestion please let me know.



Farrell said:


> Maybe the same lume should be used in the gold and silver hands so that people can choose whichever hands they want and the lumes don't clash?


----------



## Farrell

*Re: Actually....*

No Bill, you got it right. Didn't realise we'd get a choice. How much choice will we be getting in this come ordering time? By that I mean, how customisable will the final delivered package be?


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## siggy

*Re: Perfect selection! >>>*



k7lro said:


> Might as well call it a wrap on the name also... 75% voted for Kingston.
> 
> What's left? The bezel insert? Should this be the standard bezil with minute markers up to 15? Red triangle?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me? Anxious... no way. :-d


I think this pic shows another variation in the bezel insert. The hashes in the first 15 mins are a little shorter than other versions. I think both variations are correct as far as originality goes so it's just a matter of choosing which version we want.

I think this version with the shorter hashes has a more vintage feel, the longer ones are just too modern.

regards

siggy


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## JDS (Ohio)

*Re: Perfect selection! >>>*

I'm beginning to wonder how many variations of the 6538 there actually were? I can see how discovering and cataloging the Rolex sports watch history could get both time consuming and VERY expensive. Not even the books are cheap.

I wonder how much variation could also be traced to Rolex later servicing older watches, sort of like their replacing matte dials on Subs with the current gloss dials and white gold fences?


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## Thieuster

There's a interesting Rolex dial for sale. Search on the Bay for item number 390031596238

Be sure to be seated when you have a look at the starting bid...

And on the netwerk54-site, perform a search for this modem burner: NOS 6538 , NOS 6536 , NOS 5508 Replacement Dials & Hands

Menno


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## cpotters

Thieuster said:


> There's a interesting Rolex dial for sale. Search on the Bay for item number 390031596238
> 
> Be sure to be seated when you have a look at the starting bid...
> 
> And on the netwerk54-site, perform a search for this modem burner: NOS 6538 , NOS 6536 , NOS 5508 Replacement Dials & Hands
> 
> Menno


I just checked that item number on the bay, and it said this item was not viewable because it was no longer for sale. Must have been REEEELY special.


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## Thieuster

cpotters said:


> I just checked that item number on the bay, and it said this item was not viewable because it was no longer for sale. Must have been REEEELY special.


Try this one: http://cgi.ebay.nl/Orig-ROLEX-Vintage-Submariner-5510-5512-Gilt-Dial-NOS_W0QQitemZ390031596238QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDE_Kleidung_Schmuck_Accessoires_Uhren_Armbanduhren?hash=item390031596238&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1399|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

I'm not braking rule #3 here: imho this live auction link is for discussion purposes only.

Menno


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## NWP627

Thieuster said:


> Try this one: http://cgi.ebay.nl/Orig-ROLEX-Vintage-Submariner-5510-5512-Gilt-Dial-NOS_W0QQitemZ390031596238QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDE_Kleidung_Schmuck_Accessoires_Uhren_Armbanduhren?hash=item390031596238&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1399|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
> Menno


*EUR 19.950,00 for a single dial - amazing!
N
*


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## GraniteQuarry

^^^

I've seen these make $8,000/10,000 on eBay, but asking around $25,000 is just nuts IMO.

Seller is a nice bloke, but taking a flyer here IMO.


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## Yao

*You could almost buy a nice...*

watch for that kind of money ;-)



NWP627 said:


> *EUR 19.950,00 for a single dial - amazing!
> N
> *


----------



## siggy

In case anyone else is interested someone on another forum has just completed a very rigorous and controlled experiment to test various lume powders. 

To be consistent, he stared with the raw lume powder not just diffeerent watches. He mixed each powder with the same medium, again for consistency and ensured the same depth and area of each powder for a fair test.

The brightest after several hours was indeed a blue emission lume, but a couple of other also performed very well. 

He also confirmed what has long thought to be the case, size of the particles in the powder ( bigger the better ), larger area of lume, depth of lume are very critical in achieving the best results.

regards

siggy


----------



## Yao

*Do you have a link?*

that we can take a look at?



siggy said:


> In case anyone else is interested someone on another forum has just completed a very rigorous and controlled experiment to test various lume powders.
> 
> To be consistent, he stared with the raw lume powder not just diffeerent watches. He mixed each powder with the same medium, again for consistency and ensured the same depth and area of each powder for a fair test.
> 
> The brightest after several hours was indeed a blue emission lume, but a couple of other also performed very well.
> 
> He also confirmed what has long thought to be the case, size of the particles in the powder ( bigger the better ), larger area of lume, depth of lume are very critical in achieving the best results.
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


----------



## siggy

Sure Bill,

I didn't know if it was correct to post it,

http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67002&start=0

regards

siggy


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## Yao

*That's fine...*

now if it were another company's watch that would be something else :-d



siggy said:


> Sure Bill,
> 
> I didn't know if it was correct to post it,
> 
> http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67002&start=0
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


----------



## cpotters

*Re: You could almost buy a nice...*



Yao said:


> watch for that kind of money ;-)


Or more than twenty-five of them, if you knew where to look (hehe)


----------



## siggy

I know Bill is working on an Explorer dial for the Kingston and I'm glad he is as it might even be my first choice. I was just looking at the Explorer dialed Big Crown in James Dowling's own collection and something caught my that I'd never noticed before. The minute track is different from the normal Submariner version, the minute marks on the 5,10,15..points are longer than the 1,2,3,6,7,8,9 etc. I then looked at other examples and it seems not just to be a one off, all that I found had this sort of minute track, and it looks good! Maybe others have noticed this ages ago and I'm just slow.

It's very difficult to put together a list of what makes these different dials look good, there are so many different small variables. Very often it's a combination of things together, change or try to improve one and sometimes it seems to loose the overall style.

I think Bill should just find a pic of one of the vintage dials he likes and then try and make it as similar to that one as possible rather than take good bits and pieces from different dials. I trust Bill's sense of style to make the judgements.

Sometimes I think it's easier to pick what can make different vintage watches look bad rather than what looks good. A few bad examples I can think of;

a new looking dark black bezel with a dial that has faded to a lighter shade of black looks terrible. A dark black dial and faded bezel looks great, other way around and it's horrrible. 

the gold around the hour markers. If it's too thick or even worse there is a gap between the lume and the gold ring looks really bad. Keep the outline as thin as possible.

Minute track- too thick makes the dial looks homemade, a very fine minute track looks good.

regards

siggy


----------



## Yao

*Thanks Siggy....*

I will keep these ideas in mind as I finalize the case and dial designs.



siggy said:


> I know Bill is working on an Explorer dial for the Kingston and I'm glad he is as it might even be my first choice. I was just looking at the Explorer dialed Big Crown in James Dowling's own collection and something caught my that I'd never noticed before. The minute track is different from the normal Submariner version, the minute marks on the 5,10,15..points are longer than the 1,2,3,6,7,8,9 etc. I then looked at other examples and it seems not just to be a one off, all that I found had this sort of minute track, and it looks good! Maybe others have noticed this ages ago and I'm just slow.
> 
> It's very difficult to put together a list of what makes these different dials look good, there are so many different small variables. Very often it's a combination of things together, change or try to improve one and sometimes it seems to loose the overall style.
> 
> I think Bill should just find a pic of one of the vintage dials he likes and then try and make it as similar to that one as possible rather than take good bits and pieces from different dials. I trust Bill's sense of style to make the judgements.
> 
> Sometimes I think it's easier to pick what can make different vintage watches look bad rather than what looks good. A few bad examples I can think of;
> 
> a new looking dark black bezel with a dial that has faded to a lighter shade of black looks terrible. A dark black dial and faded bezel looks great, other way around and it's horrrible.
> 
> the gold around the hour markers. If it's too thick or even worse there is a gap between the lume and the gold ring looks really bad. Keep the outline as thin as possible.
> 
> Minute track- too thick makes the dial looks homemade, a very fine minute track looks good.
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


----------



## timbo

Hey, this is good news - Bill is continually exceeding expectations on this project, and I really appreciate that! I love that milsub A/6538 look, and it will certainly make picking which dials I want for my watch that much more difficult 



siggy said:


> The minute track is different from the normal Submariner version, the minute marks on the 5,10,15..points are longer than the 1,2,3,6,7,8,9 etc.


Good eye on the minute track markings, Siggy - they are clearly longer on the 12 major positions, which is unlike the other subs (or 1016 Explorers, for that matter).

If you're going to go all out and make a dated milsub versions as well, Bill, why don't you make it really difficult for us to choose and put the date at 4:30 like the vantage?


----------



## Docwein

*The gold hands will look nice with the Corvus real bond*

strap. The green and gold a nice touch.


----------



## HappyJack

I had a friend round recently who was wearing a Rolex Sub 6536 - the thinner cased version of the "James Bond" Sub with the 100m WR and the smaller 6mm crown.
The markers are yellowish, but of a similar colour to the railway track and glow yellowish after being illuminated.

I got a couple of photos:


----------



## Tetraflop

Hey Happy Jack,
nice Watch
like your Pitts.


___________
Dietmar


----------



## HappyJack

Tetraflop said:


> Hey Happy Jack,
> nice Watch
> like your Pitts.
> __________
> Dietmar


Thanks - so do Ib-) It's a gret way to blow away the cobwebs, though probably as addictive as crack!


----------

