# A new Seagull movement?



## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Hi all, 

I haven't paid much attention to new movements, but this one looks like a movement I saw before, a Swiss Pronto automaic that has a similar movement. I have this watch, and it is a very thin watch at about 7.5mm. Have you seen the Seagull movement before? I like the idea of a very thin automatic mechanical watch. But it seems that the Pronto design was not very popular. I wonder why?
I borrowed the image from a Chinese forum. It is said to be a new Seagull movement.

Cheers


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## GuySie (Jan 14, 2008)

:O microrotor! I don't know which movement that is yet, but I want a watch with it. Now please :O


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

GuySie said:


> :O microrotor! I don't know which movement that is yet, but I want a watch with it. Now please :O


+1 Me too, Ik ook, etc. I already love it.


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## TO_ARCH (Dec 29, 2009)

+2, just wondering what the front looks like? Love the thin auto movement!


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

TO_ARCH said:


> +2, just wondering what the front looks like? Love the thin auto movement!


+3, if anyone is going to produce an affordable micro rotor movement I'm in :-!


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

TO_ARCH said:


> +2, just wondering what the front looks like? Love the thin auto movement!


Here is a front look. It looks very elegant IMO.b-)


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

I guess my confident assertion a few months ago that we are unlikely to ever see a Chinese microrotor was completely and utterly WRONG! :-x
https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/chinese-microrotor-movements-439829.html

(sometimes I like being proven wrong :-d)


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## tecrose (Dec 23, 2010)

This is said to be the final production version. Looks sharp! Definitely HIGH on my list!


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

I visited Roland Ranfft's impressive site and checked out all the microrotors. The closest match is the Universal 1








bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Universal 1-66

This is a 2nd generation microrotor in which the rotor extends across the central axis of the movement, making a central second hand impossible unless driven very indirectly on the dial side, which would compromise thinness. Even a sub-dial would need to be located somewhere around the 4 o'clock position.

Anyway, it looks very much as if Sea-Gull have assessed the Universal 1 as the 'best practice' in microrotors and designed a movement embodying a very similar structure with a very small and extremely off-set train and escapement. I think it is fair to assume that they are probably incorporating as much generic ST16/ST17 components as possible.

Zhang, do you have any photos of your Pronto watch?


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## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

tecrose said:


> This is said to be the final production version. Looks sharp! Definitely HIGH on my list!


What is the model number?

thanks,
gigfy


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Looks like a $500 watch :-!


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## tecrose (Dec 23, 2010)

gigfy said:


> What is the model number?


I've no idea. It's probably a bit early to have a model number.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

tecrose said:


>


I really like the simple two-hand dial. It's almost as clean as a Max Bill, and very _essentially_ elegant.


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## skywatch (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm glad my computer keyboard has a skin on it - there's a puddle of drool forming. 
I WANT ONE! I love this clean design.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> I visited Roland Ranfft's impressive site and checked out all the microrotors. The closest match is the Universal 1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chascomm,

Thanks for the education!:-! Although I am not sure if I really understand.o|:-d
I just took some quick shots of my Pronto. I am surprised that even Roland's site doesn't have its image?


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## tecrose (Dec 23, 2010)

This 519.320 looks just like the one with the microrotor.


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

Now these are models worth saving up for :-!

-edit- Is it me, or do none of these models have a second hand? Have they sacrificed this for a flatter movement?

Regards,

Martin


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Martin_B said:


> Now these are models worth saving up for :-!
> 
> -edit- Is it me, or do none of these models have a second hand? Have they sacrificed this for a flatter movement?
> 
> ...


Hi Martin,

I also noticed that, and then I saw that it has a see-through back so that you can see the movement working if you have doubt. I heard that this watch is only about 6mm thick. 1.5mm thinner than my Pronto.|>

Cheers,

Soviet


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

Martin_B said:


> Now these are models worth saving up for :-!
> 
> -edit- Is it me, or do none of these models have a second hand? Have they sacrificed this for a flatter movement?
> 
> ...


Have a look at the technical explanation that Chascomm gave, apparently it would have been pretty difficult to mount a second hand.

Any word on the pricing of these watches?


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

Oldheritage said:


> Have a look at the technical explanation that Chascomm gave, apparently it would have been pretty difficult to mount a second hand.
> 
> Any word on the pricing of these watches?


You're right. I read it, but it didn't sink in... :-(


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## Bidle (Aug 5, 2006)

Just saw it on another forum and really like it!


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

Martin_B said:


> You're right. I read it, but it didn't sink in... :-(


Don't worry, I had to reread it twice to get the technical details as well ;-)

The Universal Geneve 1-66 did not have a second hand either, I have to say that doesn't really bother me if you have a look at the thinness of some of these watches.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Nice Pronto! :-!

I recognise that one. It's a Harley-Ronda. The world's only budget microrotor. Sadly it arrived too late after quartz became popular but too soon for the revival in interest in mechanical watches :-( A small cache of unassembled movements were assembled for sale about 10 years ago. The mere fact that it is a microrotor design ensures that any watch with this movement will sell for a high price. You did well catching that one.

Here's a bit of info on Christoph Lorenz's site:
The Metatechnical Cabinet - Ronda 2538 Harley


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

tecrose said:


> This 519.320 looks just like the one with the microrotor.


I think maybe not. The microrotor movement looks like it has more than 18 jewels.


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## ej0rge (Jan 13, 2011)

Oldheritage said:


> Have a look at the technical explanation that Chascomm gave, apparently it would have been pretty difficult to mount a second hand.


Not even a sub-second? You know, so i can have my Nomos Tangente homage?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

ej0rge said:


> Not even a sub-second? You know, so i can have my Nomos Tangente homage?


In my opinion, Nomos should be making a homage of this Sea-Gull, not the other way around ;-) It's an all-new 21st century microrotor. That's legendary!

You can have a sub-second, if the movement is rotated so that the crown is at about the 4:30 position (presuming you want your subdial at 6 o'clock), and the subdial will be small and close to the edge of the dial.


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## McSh5 (Feb 4, 2010)

Darn it another one to add to the list. Do want.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

Chascomm said:


> You can have a sub-second, if the movement is rotated so that the crown is at about the 4:30 position (presuming you want your subdial at 6 o'clock), and the subdial will be small and close to the edge of the dial.


But what would someone at a dress occasion need to time to the second? :think:

I _love_ that these watches have no second hand.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

What happened to my Pronto images? Now I saw a well used Omega.o|:roll:


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

There are other brands that loose the second hand to get the thinnest movements.



























I guess SeaGull is in good company ;-)

Regards,

Martin


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

soviet said:


> What happened to my Pronto images? Now I saw a well used Omega.o|:roll:


That's what I'm seeing too! o| o| The ghost in the machine strikes again!

Well it was good to see your Pronto while it was there.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

Chascomm said:


> Well it was good to see your Pronto while it was there.


here's the fun part: I still see the Pronto:

here's the photos.. (pronto movement)










dial...










...caseback










...but if I try to reference/save them locally using the flash uploader I get an invalid file note


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

:-s I see two shots of an old omega again??


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## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

Martin_B said:


> :-s I see two shots of an old omega again??


Try clearing out your browser cache. I saw the Omega when they were first posted but now I see the Pronto.


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## skywatch (Aug 3, 2010)

I think I have only seen the Omega photos, never saw the Pronto. Tried clearing my cache, too. Odd.


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## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

AlbertaTime said:


> here's the fun part: I still see the Pronto:
> 
> here's the photos.. (pronto movement)
> 
> ...


 And for me there's nothing there. No pics. Doesn't matter whether I'm logged in or not. Where are the pics hosted?
EDIT: looking at the source I see that the img links point to wus, but then there's also some script being called...


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## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

LCheapo said:


> And for me there's nothing there. No pics. Doesn't matter whether I'm logged in or not. Where are the pics hosted?
> EDIT: looking at the source I see that the img links point to wus, but then there's also some script being called...


Now I can't see those pics. But I could before. IIRC, the forum was acting funny a few days ago. Maybe this is the culprit. I saved the Pronto movement shot and uploaded it again. Can you see me now? :-d :-d









cheers,
gigfy


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## ej0rge (Jan 13, 2011)

now i see the pronto


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Nope. Still the Omega. o|


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

gigfy said:


> Now I can't see those pics. But I could before. IIRC, the forum was acting funny a few days ago. Maybe this is the culprit. I saved the Pronto movement shot and uploaded it again. Can you see me now? :-d :-d
> 
> View attachment 396993
> 
> ...


I edited my post, removed all three images, and only uploaded the movement image again. This is not the 1st time this happened on this forum. Also frustrating is that I sometimes could not see images forum members uploaded.o|


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

I would certainly be interested in an automatic Seagull with a microrotor if they place it in a thin dressy watch that was evocative of a Patek or Vacheron.


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

I see the Pronto now, the Sea-Gull looks a lot better :-!


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## McSh5 (Feb 4, 2010)

Anyone have a price estimation?


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## skywatch (Aug 3, 2010)

gigfy said:


> Now I can't see those pics. But I could before. IIRC, the forum was acting funny a few days ago. Maybe this is the culprit. I saved the Pronto movement shot and uploaded it again. Can you see me now? :-d :-d


This I can see! Thanks. Yes, Sea-Gull is a beauty in comparison. I want one. Regarding images, despite the wiki about uploading images, I never have seen a way on my browser to upload images from my computer directly to WUS, so all this time I just post them on my personal server and link to them, which always seems to work, but I would certainly prefer to put them on WUS sometime. I guess I'm just stupid... (Edit - now I solved this, but we now know there are other problems with uploaded images getting lost...)


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## CCCP (Jul 1, 2006)

I want one too!!!


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## Thorto (Sep 5, 2009)

Super thin, auto, no date, no seconds hand, I'm in love. The only thing I'm missing is a bracelet.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Thorto said:


> Super thin, auto, no date, no seconds hand, I'm in love. The only thing I'm missing is a bracelet.


I'm imagining it on a mesh bracelet.

Yes, I realize that mesh in combination with that dial it will make it look dangerously close to a Skagen homage, but it's saved by the more conservative case style. And the Sea-Gull dial is even more minimal than the Skagen. Besides, with this watch Sea-Gull now stands in the hierarchy of thin automatics roughly where Skagen stands in thin quartz, so the comparison is a favourable one.


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## Sodiac (Dec 6, 2008)

I'm really liking this one, any word on if it will become available for sale on the Sea-Gull USA website, or anywhere else?


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## johnchoe (Jul 1, 2009)

Forgive my ignorance, but why is a microrotor movement thinner than a typical movement? Is it because the rotor is carved out of space on the mainplate, rather than added on top of it? 

Does the use of this space on the mainplate then preclude a seconds hand?


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

It's all about reducing the height of the movement. By putting the rotor into the main plate, you reduce the thickness of the movement. 

By not having a seconds hand, you reduce the height of the shaft by having only 2 hands.


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## feilong108 (Jun 3, 2008)

wow....very nice classic look!!!


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

johnchoe said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but why is a microrotor movement thinner than a typical movement? Is it because the rotor is carved out of space on the mainplate, rather than added on top of it?


That's it. as many component as possible have been placed in the same plane rather than stacked on top of each other like in a conventional movement.



> Does the use of this space on the mainplate then preclude a seconds hand?


Not necessarily. Take a look at soviet's Pronto watch, which has the 4th wheel in the centre to support a centre second hand. However in the Sea-Gull all the wheels in the train have been pushed to the edge, so a complicated and space-wasting linkage would be needed to reach all the way to the centre. A small sub-dial for the seconds could be fitted, but it would be in an unusual location on the dial.


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

Any idea how much this would be? Would it be a $xxx or $xxxx watch?


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## Thompson (Oct 2, 2010)

soviet said:


> Here is a front look. It looks very elegant IMO.b-)


 Kind of looks like this M201a...









I'm guessing the microrotor would probably cost a bit more... Forum would like and RRP. :think:


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Thompson said:


> Kind of looks like this M201a...
> 
> View attachment 401814
> 
> ...


Any updates on when and where this will be available from, and how much it would cost?


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## tecrose (Dec 23, 2010)

Per Kevin at US Sea-Gull, the micro rotor movement powered watches will go into production at the end of this year. No word regarding the price yet.


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## chrisbo28 (Jan 11, 2011)

It is pretty useless without a second hand IMHO. :-( If this would have a better accuracy you wouldn't even know.:-(

This will be a beautifull but pricey movement. :-d The main reason to build this movement is to show the world that you can do it.:-! It is like putting "China Made" on the dial. ;-) I guess this will be about $900 each. Just add a second hand to it and the fans will ...  ...druel the floor until it stinks.:-d


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## ej0rge (Jan 13, 2011)

chrisbo28 said:


> It is pretty useless without a second hand IMHO. :-( If this would have a better accuracy you wouldn't even know.:-(
> 
> This will be a beautifull but pricey movement. :-d The main reason to build this movement is to show the world that you can do it.:-! It is like putting "China Made" on the dial. ;-) I guess this will be about $900 each. Just add a second hand to it and the fans will ...  ...druel the floor until it stinks.:-d


That's too bad. I have no interest at all in $900 watches.

What's more, it's foolish to spend $900 on a watch that has to be mailed out of the country for service.

Edit: I suppose if they make them for Fossil with "Swiss Legend" printed on the dial . . .


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## cameronma (May 7, 2010)

The style drove me remember Glashutte


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

chrisbo28 said:


> It is pretty useless without a second hand IMHO. :-( If this would have a better accuracy you wouldn't even know.:-(
> 
> This will be a beautifull but pricey movement. :-d The main reason to build this movement is to show the world that you can do it.:-! It is like putting "China Made" on the dial. ;-) I guess this will be about $900 each. Just add a second hand to it and the fans will ...  ...druel the floor until it stinks.:-d


Why this obsession with second hands? The best dress watches go without.

Think of it as a sign of confidence that the watch _is_ accurate and doesn't need to be proving it from minute to minute.


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## ej0rge (Jan 13, 2011)

My hope is still a watch with a price/performance (style + build + functionality) ratio that beats this by a wide margin:

Aristo Bauhaus FE2323.68 5H77 - Gnomon Watches - Watches + Accessories + Emotions

Though maybe with a white dial.


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## skywatch (Aug 3, 2010)

That Aristo is beautiful. I like the Bauhaus look. Let's not cast aspersions on the new slim Sea-Gull until it's shipping. Rumors are closer to $500, but we really won't know price until later. I have researched Hamilton-Buren micro-rotor Thin-o-matic movements and it seems they had some problems. I am very interested in learning how Sea-Gull overcomes these challenges. I suspect they will. When someone finds one of these for sale, will you please post a link? I think I'm not the only one looking for that.


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## chrisbo28 (Jan 11, 2011)

> Why this obsession with second hands? The best dress watches go without.
> 
> Think of it as a sign of confidence that the watch _is_ accurate and doesn't need to be proving it from minute to minute.


Dresswatch?:roll: For that purpose it would be way to pricey. It is a technical masterpiece and would love to time it to the second to see how much it gains or loose.:-d The style doesn't do mutch for me without the technical aspects.;-)


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

I honestly prefer the extra thinness even if that means sacrificing the second hand. As has been posted in this thread already: a lot of the worlds thinnest movements have no second hand, and I understand the technical difficulty of mounting one on this movement (thanks to Chascomm ).


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

Besides, if the watch has a low beat count, the long second hand looks jerky anyway.


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## ed21x (Feb 11, 2011)

Chascomm said:


> Why this obsession with second hands? The best dress watches go without.
> 
> Think of it as a sign of confidence that the watch _is_ accurate and doesn't need to be proving it from minute to minute.


half the fun of owning a mechanical watch is for the second hand sweep. Without it, you might as well have a quartz or ecodrive as they'll be visually indistinguishable from the front.


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## charmquark (Oct 14, 2009)

ed21x said:


> Without it, you might as well have a quartz or ecodrive as they'll be visually indistinguishable from the front.


Ah, but you'll know it's mechanical - honestly except on a chronograph I ignore the second hand (and the date window).


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## dunarit (Mar 1, 2011)

So where to buy it?


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Any updates on when this microrotor movement will be available?


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## skywatch (Aug 3, 2010)

mleok said:


> Any updates on when this microrotor movement will be available?


Earlier this summer, I emailed Kevin Ma to ask him when he thought he could get these watches. He thought it was possible that we would see them before the end of the year. I don't think he has much control over the matter, however. I expect this will not be a cheap watch, but I am saving up for it in wishful thinking.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

I would guess that this movement being a milestone in Chinese watchmaking, it will most likely be only available in a Sea-Gull branded watch, at least initially.

Also the prototype is styled in the current Sea-Gull modern style, which suggests to me that it is intended for general production. If it was intended primarily as a show-piece (e.g. the Sea-Gull ST90 quarter repeater) then it would have been seen first in a far more elaborate precious-metal case. So I'm predicting that it will be released some time in the next few months, in the form in which it has been shown in this thread, with a choice of white or black dial.


So the only question remaining is:

How much will it cost on the international market?

(and I'm kind of dreading the answer to that)


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

skywatch said:


> Earlier this summer, I emailed Kevin Ma to ask him when he thought he could get these watches. He thought it was possible that we would see them before the end of the year. I don't think he has much control over the matter, however. I expect this will not be a cheap watch, but I am saving up for it in wishful thinking.


Hmm... I wonder whether our friend Thomas in HK could get some to sell...


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

Hmm, WuS CMW 2012 edition. Microrotor, enamel dial... ;-)


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Martin_B said:


> Hmm, WuS CMW 2012 edition. Microrotor, enamel dial... ;-)


Hmm, I would be all over something which looked like a Patek Calatrava 5120.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

mleok said:


> Hmm, I would be all over something which looked like a Patek Calatrava 5120.


Really? I much prefer Sea-Gull's take on the modern ultrathin watch. That Patek just looks kind of generic to me. ;-)


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Chascomm said:


> Really? I much prefer Sea-Gull's take on the modern ultrathin watch. That Patek just looks kind of generic to me. ;-)


Well, I guess what makes the Patek 5120 isn't so much the dial, as the hobnail bezel, so I guess I can see where you're coming from.

However, Seagull's design reminds me of the Longines Les Grandes Classiques, and I'm not such a big fan of the thin lines as hour markers.









My favorite 2 hand dial on a watch without a distinctive case or bezel is the Vacheron Constantin Patrimony Contemporaine, and in fact, the Seagull 519.320 looks very similar to it:


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

mleok said:


> Well, I guess what makes the Patek 5120 isn't so much the dial, as the hobnail bezel, so I guess I can see where you're coming from.
> 
> However, Seagull's design reminds me of the Longines Les Grandes Classiques, and I'm not such a big fan of the thin lines as hour markers.
> 
> ...


Well there you see it's just a different way of looking at it.

I would say Sea-Gull's new look dial is much closer to Skagen than Longines, although their choice of a more classic case style takes the overall effect in another direction.

As for that Vacheron; to me it looks like a homage to the Shanghai A581. Who'd have thought they were such fans of Chinese watches?

I guess the point I am making here is that I just don't buy the big Swiss myth that has been fed to us by advertising over the last couple of decades. You know, the idea that all original design and styling concepts originate with the elite Swiss brands and everything else is just a copy. The truth is that they are mixing and matching styling elements the same as everybody else, but due to their towering reputations, everybody will cheerfully accept that they are always the authors of a particular look.

It's just something that bugs me a bit (well actually a lot), especially as my interest is Chinese watches. So many people look a watch and say 'that's nice' but tell them it's Chinese and they'll say 'that's a rip-off of ...' and name some Swiss watch with which it shares a few stylistic motifs (shared also by dozens of other watches of various nationalities). Why does nobody subject Vacheron Constantine, Gerard Perregaux and all those other double-barreled Swiss names to the same critical scrutiny?

Sorry for the rant :-( (I feel better now)


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

I hear you,

I had the exact same experience several times. When I showed an M177, people immediately started about JLC, but I never heard someone saying the same thing when this Ball was showed, which is even a closer match:









Even with my Beijing everest, people needed to find watches with a similar dial layout...Yes it has numbers and dots, like 5000 other watcheso|
And usually in the same sentence they start about better buying a Seiko. Yeah, like they have a lot of original models...:roll:


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Apparently another Chinese microrotor movement exists. Attached are a couple of images supplied by member cunningstunt (counterfeit trademarks have been erased from the images). Apparently this movement has been available for at least 5 years.

Note that unlike the new Sea-Gull movement, this mystery movement features a date mechanism as well as an indirectly-driven sweep second hand. It is therefore unlikely to be as thin as the Sea-Gull. 

I recall Dixmont claiming China's thinnest automatic some years ago. I thought that refered to the DG69 series (essentially a DG28 with a very close shave), but perhaps they are the makers of this movement as well? Or maybe this movement is not actually any thinner than a DG69 or Sea-Gull ST18?

The fact that this movement has never shown up previously on this forum in a legitimately branded watch suggests that its performance is probably not so good. I mean what company would make a microrotor and not advertise it?

As with the Sea-Gull movement, I cannot find an exact match with a Swiss design so it appears to be an original design, but then I'm no expert on microrotor movements.


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

Are we even sure that it's a Chinese movement? Just the fact that it's in a fake watch doesn't mean it's Chinese:roll:


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Martin_B said:


> Are we even sure that it's a Chinese movement? Just the fact that it's in a fake watch doesn't mean it's Chinese:roll:


Good point, and that is one reason why I'd be delighted if somebody could ID this design.

Logically a counterfeiter would use the cheapest movement possible, but the only 'budget' microrotor ever made was the Swiss Harley-Ronda (mentioned elsewhere in this thread), and this mystery movement is a far more sophisticated design. So if this movement is _not_ a Chinese product, then it must be a very expensive Swiss or German movement. There have been known examples of stolen parts being used to make counterfeits within Switzerland. That's one non-Chinese scenario. Or did somebody somehow acquire a cache of high-grade Swiss movements and decide that more money could be made by false branding than by creating their own brand.

So does anybody recognise this movement?


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

Chascomm said:


> Good point, and that is one reason why I'd be delighted if somebody could ID this design.
> 
> Logically a counterfeiter would use the cheapest movement possible, but the only 'budget' microrotor ever made was the Swiss Harley-Ronda (mentioned elsewhere in this thread), and this mystery movement is a far more sophisticated design. So if this movement is _not_ a Chinese product, then it must be a very expensive Swiss or German movement. There have been known examples of stolen parts being used to make counterfeits within Switzerland. That's one non-Chinese scenario. Or did somebody somehow acquire a cache of high-grade Swiss movements and decide that more money could be made by false branding than by creating their own brand.
> 
> So does anybody recognise this movement?


I've been going through a bunch of microrotor movements, and if I look at the position of crown(@3), rotor(@9), and axis of the balance(@5), the only movement I could find that has the balance in the same place as the mystery movement is the Harley Rhonda. Also the barrel jewel and visible jewels form what I guess is the winding train are in the same place.
So my guess would be either a version with custom plates/bridges, or an upgraded/evolved version of this movement. But I'm by no means a specialist in these matters.

Regards,

Martin


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Martin_B said:


> I've been going through a bunch of microrotor movements, and if I look at the position of crown(@3), rotor(@9), and axis of the balance(@5), the only movement I could find that has the balance in the same place as the mystery movement is the Harley Rhonda. Also the barrel jewel and visible jewels form what I guess is the winding train are in the same place.
> So my guess would be either a version with custom plates/bridges, or an upgraded/evolved version of this movement. But I'm by no means a specialist in these matters.
> 
> Regards,
> ...


I found a thread on another site stating that these watches were seen in the Czech Republic in 2004. In the same thread it was asserted that this was an upgraded Ronda. So I took a closer look. The Ronda movement has the 4th wheel on the central axis driving the sweep second hand directly. The mystery movement has the second hand driven indirectly from the 3rd wheel (located next to the crown wheel).

I just can't find anything quite like it. o|


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

Chascomm said:


> I found a thread on another site stating that these watches were seen in the Czech Republic in 2004. In the same thread it was asserted that this was an upgraded Ronda. So I took a closer look. The Ronda movement has the 4th wheel on the central axis driving the sweep second hand directly. The mystery movement has the second hand driven indirectly from the 3rd wheel (located next to the crown wheel).
> 
> I just can't find anything quite like it. o|


I think I've found the same site as you. Let me include a 'de-branded' picture. Perhaps someone else might know...I will also ask around on another forum.








Regards,

Martin


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## skywatch (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm following this conversation with great interest. By the way, I recently learned that the current Sea-Gull microrotor is slightly delayed because they are trying to improve its power reserve. This seems to be a common challenge with micro rotors in general, as I imagine the lower mass prevents them from cranking as easily. Such was apparently also the case with the Hamilton/Buren. :think:


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

skywatch said:


> I'm following this conversation with great interest. By the way, I recently learned that the current Sea-Gull microrotor is slightly delayed because they are trying to improve its power reserve. This seems to be a common challenge with micro rotors in general, as I imagine the lower mass prevents them from cranking as easily. Such was apparently also the case with the Hamilton/Buren. :think:


There seems to be various solutions that have been tried to address this issue. Apart from the usual the winding mechanism itself (uni-directional vs double-reverser vs excentric pawl) the design of the rotor is critical. Three approaches that I know of are:

1. extra-heavy metal rotor e.g. gold or platinum. Only suitable for the most expensive watches.
2. extra-deep rotor i.e. with very little mechanism under the rotor. Useful where a sweep second hand train limits the diameter of the rotor.
3. extra-wide rotor e.g. Sea-Gull's design has a rotor that crosses the central axis of the movement, forcing the train out to the margins and preventing the use of a sweep hand.

The Ronda movement compromises in having the rotor overlap the centrally placed 4th wheel, so it's not exactly world-record thinness. This mystery (presumably Chinese) movement drives a sweep hand pinion from the 3rd wheel so there's less bulk beneath the rotor. Sea-Gull's design represents the extreme end of microrotor design by dispensing with the second hand altogether to enable a wider but thinner rotor. It's reassuring to see that they're keen to get it right.


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## spacemonk (Jan 16, 2012)

Any updates on this new seagull watch?


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Any updates on the Seagull microrotor movement?

I've found on a different website a recent sighting of the same microrotor movement that Martin_B posted.


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## stratct (Jun 17, 2010)

OH no not a micro rotor. I thought that watch companies learned from hamiltons mistakes...


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

stratct said:


> OH no not a micro rotor. I thought that watch companies learned from hamiltons mistakes...


What's wrong with micro-rotors? Patek and many others have gotten them to work.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

sdchew said:


> What's wrong with micro-rotors? Patek and many others have gotten them to work.


More to the point, Ronda got them to work, with stamped sheet-metal plates; so clearly it's not rocket science.

Hamilton's big mistake was to let themselves get taken over by the Swiss.


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## soviet (Feb 8, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> More to the point, Ronda got them to work, with stamped sheet-metal plates; so clearly it's not rocket science.
> 
> Hamilton's big mistake was to let themselves get taken over by the Swiss.


I haven't heard any news about this watch, but on a Chinese forum, someone said that Seagull made big investment on R&D and new materials,so I guess some new interesting products are under developement. BTW, China has also learned something about rocket science in recent years.  A LM-5 rocket willl be launched in 2-3 years that will be powered with clean fuel. Here is the news in Chinese.

长征五号是一种无毒无污染的高性能火箭，它有4个助推器，身高59。5米，起飞重量为643吨，起飞推力为833。8吨，近地轨道的运载能力能提高到25吨，地球同步转移轨道的运载能力提高到14吨。其设计思想以通用化、系列化、组合化为重点。可搭载两种专门为其设计的火箭发动机，分别为推力为120吨的YF-100液氧煤油发动机和推力为50吨的YF-77氢氧发动机。长征五号系列实行模块化设计，由直径为5米、3。35米和2。25米的三种模块构成。


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## wessa (Feb 10, 2012)

As far as I understand and as mentioned in earlier posts, this is still work in progress and will most likely be available end of 2012, probably in time to bring to Bezel World in 2013.
As for price, it is planned to be cased in gold so the Sea Gull gold Tourbillons are probably a good reference at this point in time.
The pictures published earlier in this post in SS are prototypes.


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## stratct (Jun 17, 2010)

sdchew said:


> What's wrong with micro-rotors? Patek and many others have gotten them to work.


Nothing really. Just the vintage ones. I was just being difficult lol


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## KingK12 (Feb 2, 2012)

Love the new movement can't wait to see the sticker on it.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Any news on when the Seagull microrotor movement will be released. I'm hoping for a simple and elegant ultrathin dress watch.


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm guessing no news on this development?


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## watchma (Jul 11, 2012)

maybe it was all a bit of a wind-up ? 

;-)

Loving the movement and watch by the way - the watch face itself on page1 looks like my seiko driven danish designs only thinner


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## watchma (Jul 11, 2012)

spot the similarity (apart from date)

1st pic from page 1, 2nd is my watch


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## seagullfan (Feb 7, 2010)

Kevin said that they are still trying to sort out problems with the power reserve on the micro-rotor.

Hopefully they can still add a second hand onto the watch...


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

seagullfan said:


> Kevin said that they are still trying to sort out problems with the power reserve on the micro-rotor.
> 
> Hopefully they can still add a second hand onto the watch...


Looking at the way the movement is built that is practically impossible.


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## Marrin (Feb 8, 2011)

I actually prefer it without the seconds hand. It looks more elegant that way!!


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

I like seconds hands... only if it is done right... movements with low bph may have a seconds hand which jerks...

Of the 4 mechanical watches I own, only 1 has center seconds hand and it has a 28.8 bph movement and is made of blued steel... now that's a beauty!


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## tmr5555 (Dec 18, 2011)

2013 forum project? Anyone?


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Hamilton did not "let" themselves get taken over by the Swiss. The larger corporate entity that was Hamilton voluntarily sold the financially ailing watch division of the business to SSIH to concentrate of more profitable ventures (namely in the fuse and arming device field) .... that corporate entity is still around making piles of money, renamed HMW Industries.


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## bosphorus (Jan 19, 2012)

Dear friend.
movement which you talking about it was not seagull.its hanzhou movement.i have one with me right now.
but its worst quality movement i see in my life.that why hanzhou never make it again.
they had some old stock (just around 200 pcs) .
they stoped to selling because of the poor quality and they also saying to that was not succesfull.so that they are continue making.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

bosphorus said:


> Dear friend.
> movement which you talking about it was not seagull.its hanzhou movement.i have one with me right now.
> but its worst quality movement i see in my life.that why hanzhou never make it again.
> they had some old stock (just around 200 pcs) .
> they stoped to selling because of the poor quality and they also saying to that was not succesfull.so that they are continue making.


Do you mean this movement?










Thank you for identifying it :-!


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

According to the factory, the micro-rotor movement will be ready by the latter half of this year. Pricing-wise it will be 40-50k RMB and cased only in 18k gold.


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## bosphorus (Jan 19, 2012)

Chascomm said:


> Do you mean this movement?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes i am talking about his, in my hand also had one ,its just garbage 
Now seagull working to make microtor ,but still working.
Can not catching to quality.
Even if they make that will not gonna be for market.They will sell with very high prices.Will be like swiss mirotor watch prices.
China movement industry still like a small baby, they need very very very very long time to grown up...


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