# Some nice vintage French watches



## soviet

Hello guys,

I have managed to assemble a collection of vintage French watches of 1950-60's. These were popular in China in the 1960's, and they were not as expensive as similar Swiss ones. I found them rarely seen on the big auction site, Why? They are easy to find in Beijing.

Cheers,

Zhang


----------



## soviet

Here is another clean Yema. The hands need some cleaning, and the case needs some polishing, and then it will as nice as a vintage Chinese Chunlei.


----------



## marc_wl

Yes! |>

It' really nice to see these watches sold on Chinese market. One has the best caseback with detailled Yema armories embossed.










What sorts of movements inside these watches (ETA? FE (France Ebauches)?). The "Elgé" is less familiar to me but I am not en expert..

Kind regards


----------



## michiel

*Here's my Yema Superman..>>*

nice watch for small monry :-!

Cheers,


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> Yes! |>
> 
> It' really nice to see these watches sold on Chinese market. One has the best caseback with detailled Yema armories embossed.
> 
> ......
> What sorts of movements inside these watches (ETA? FE (France Ebauches)?). The "Elgé" is less familiar to me but I am not en expert..
> 
> Kind regards


Hi Marc,

Your Yema has a very nice caseback.|> Are these often seen in France? I understand Seiko bought Yema in 1988. But all my Yema were made before that, so that they are true French watches with all kinds French movements. :gold I will take an image of movements FYI.

Cheers.


----------



## Chascomm

*Re: Here's my Yema Superman..>>*



michiel said:


> nice watch for small monry :-!
> 
> Cheers,


I love the style, love the name and a genuine FE automatic movement is pretty cool, too :-!


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> Hi Marc,
> 
> Your Yema has a very nice caseback.|> Are these often seen in France? I understand Seiko bought Yema in 1988. But all my Yema were made before that, so that they are true French watches with all kinds French movements. :gold I will take an image of movements FYI.
> 
> Cheers.


Not so much in fact. Especially this artistic one. I posted a few month ago its "restoration" (restoration may be bit exagerated in this case ...) on this forum. Yema did more simpler armories simply embossed like this one :








​ (A Yema_ flygraf _likely Circa 1976 with a Valjoux 7750, this link or this one)​
That's right Yema was started in France after the war II. They used either Swiss ETA, Valjoux calibers or these FE movements that are 100% French. Yema gained some international reputation due to the commercial sucessness in the US of some sport chronos like the _yatchingraf_ (Valjoux 7734), _rallygraf_ (7734) and _flygraf_, plus the diving watch like the _Iroman,_ _Superman,_ etc..

The company returned 100% French in 2005 and released some interesting re-edition and the rallygraf with quartz movement and high-quality stainless steel case. They are nice "tool" watches that I like very much.










Here is the Yema entry at Wikipedia confirmed by other sources :

"Yema is a watchmaking company in Besançon, France. They claim that their watches "stand out from the rest by virtue of their specific design and technological characteristics".
Founded in 1948 in Besançon (Doubs) by Henry Louis Belmont, the company distinguished itself in the very beginning by creating the first automatic chronometers manufactured entirely in France, and became famous for the technical qualities and sports characteristics of its watches.
Having been owned by Seiko Watch Corporation of Japan since 1988, the company recently returned to French hands via a buyout by Louis Eric Beckensteiner. As a result, a transition is occurring as of September, 2005. The new Chairman has set a target for watch sales of 50,000 in 2005 and 100,000 pieces with a turnover of 10 million euros in 2008".​​


----------



## soviet

Thanks Marc for the links and the article. Very interesting!:-! I am glad to hear that Yema bought back the company. I checked my Yemas and found that they all have French movements. But I do not recognize the signs under the balance. Here is a scan of some FYI plus a couple of more French watches.

Cheers,

Zhang


----------



## soviet

*Re: Another clean "action"*

Just found another clean "Action" brand watch with a slightly different dial today. These must be 40-50 years old, still they are in such a fine condition.:-! 
I paid 10 euros for it, and I think it well worth the money.


----------



## soviet

*Re: Here's my Yema Superman..>>*



michiel said:


> nice watch for small monry :-!
> 
> Cheers,


That is a great Yema with an automatic French movement.:-! It must be much rarer than similar Swiss automatics.

The Yema brand has a good Chinese translation-野马(wild horse).|>


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> Thanks Marc for the links and the article. Very interesting!:-! I am glad to hear that Yema bought back the company. I checked my Yemas and found that they all have French movements. But I do not recognize the signs under the balance. Here is a scan of some FYI plus a couple of more French watches.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Zhang


Really very nice |>

I would say that the central one are "FE" but for the others?

Here is a link to web pages that give the translation of vintage marks/punches. May be you will recognize yours?
http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/wristwatchesvintages/page1.html


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> Really very nice |>
> 
> I would say that the central one are "FE" but for the others?
> 
> Here is a link to web pages that give the translation of vintage marks/punches. May be you will recognize yours?
> http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/wristwatchesvintages/page1.html


Many thanks for the link. I will check.
Here are some watches that I believe were made by French Swiss companies from their brand names. What do you think? They all share that simple and elegant French style.:-!


----------



## soviet

I like these French watches. Here is another one I found recently. It also has a nice caseback, and the dial is very clean. These are very rare else where except in China. France must have a close relationship with China in the 1950-60's.:-!


----------



## soviet

One more yema! This one has a very light bluish dial, and is in excellent condition. |> Yema must have sold all their wathes to China in the 1960's. There sould be a honey-moon between the two countries when France recognized PRC. These are rarely seen on that big flea market.


----------



## marc_wl

Very nice one |>|> !



soviet said:


> There sould be a honey-moon between the two countries when France recognized PRC. ..


Yeah! It was in 1964.;-)

Cheers,


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> Very nice one |>|> !
> 
> Yeah! It was in 1964.;-)
> 
> Cheers,


Marc, That is a breathtaking beautiful LIP! Very nice.:-! These are not very often seen on Chinese market.

Those Yema watches were priced slightly higher than Chinese ones so that people could afford them. I feel this maybe a preferential treatment for the recognition. Many Yema watches are still in excellent conditions, that I think reflect their very high build quality.|>


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> Marc, That is a breathtaking beautiful LIP! Very nice.:-! These are not very often seen on Chinese market.
> 
> Those Yema watches were priced slightly higher than Chinese ones so that people could afford them. I feel this maybe a preferential treatment for the recognition. Many Yema watches are still in excellent conditions, that I think reflect their very high build quality.|>


Lip watches were (for some extends) "manufacture" watches, (following the principle that a watch "manufacture" designs and constructs its own proprietary movements (exeptionally every parts however). They were likely a bit more expensive than Yema for some series. AFAIK Yema watches used only "ébauches" from ETA or FE companies that were very nice. Lip also used ETA ébauches in some specific watches that could be finished sometime with special decorations.

;-)


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> Lip watches were (for some extends) "manufacture" watches, (following the principle that a watch "manufacture" designs and constructs its own proprietary movements (exeptionally every parts however). They were likely a bit more expensive than Yema for some series. AFAIK Yema watches used only "ébauches" from ETA or FE companies that were very nice. Lip also used ETA ébauches in some specific watches that could be finished sometime with special decorations.
> 
> ;-)


Hello Marc,

I head that some Yema watches with that deeply embossed Yema signs caseback has a piece of silver melted to it, so that the Yema patterns are made of silver. If you look from the inside of the caseback, you will see a shining piece of metal. I am not sure if this is true.

Here is another French watch. A Herma brand ,but with the same movments as that of Yema. Herma was called HEIMA by Chinese that means a black horse. Yema was a wild horse.:-D


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> Hello Marc,
> 
> I head that some Yema watches with that deeply embossed Yema signs caseback has a piece of silver melted to it, so that the Yema patterns are made of silver. If you look from the inside of the caseback, you will see a shining piece of metal. I am not sure if this is true.
> 
> Here is another French watch. A Herma brand ,but with the same movments as that of Yema. Herma was called HEIMA by Chinese that means a black horse. Yema was a wild horse.:-D


Hi Soviet,

I did not notice such silver parts on my Yema caseback. It is possible however that for exportation or to give a special luxury note, Yema sold out such a series somewhere... The case back design looked very variable. The armories were left in the 70's. My late acquisition (a Yema sous-marine") has the modern logo and nothing else than a series number on the back... (mvt FE 4611A automatic).

















​
I glad to know the chinese meaning of "Yema". It is sometime a big commercial problem for a brand name when it means something not rreally valuable. In Italy some Yema chronos (the Rallygraf in particular) were commercialized under the brand "Amaryllis" and in Germany "Eisenhardt" roll...


----------



## soviet

Marc, Here is an image of the caseback with a so called silver piece. I am not sure. A watch dealer sells these Yema watches with a red second hand for about US $30 to some Chinese police men, and he told them that these were French police watches.:-D


----------



## soviet

One more Yema with a different dial with slim hour markers, and a very nice caseback with that "silver" piece. One thing that surprised me is that these Yema aged well. Many are still in very clean conditions. I think they should be about 40 years old. It is not that easy to find a Swiss one in this condition.|>


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> One more Yema with a different dial with slim hour markers, and a very nice caseback with that "silver" piece. One thing that surprised me is that these Yema aged well. Many are still in very clean conditions. I think they should be about 40 years old. It is not that easy to find a Swiss one in this condition.|>


I can now better realize that "insert". May in more precious metal? Its a very nice one anyway.

From your posts it seems that white dials are very frequent on China. Could you confirm?

Cheers,


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> I can now better realize that "insert". May in more precious metal? Its a very nice one anyway.
> 
> From your posts it seems that white dials are very frequent on China. Could you confirm?
> 
> Cheers,


I have 5-6 Yemas, all with white dials. I have yet to see a black dial Yema. IIRC, other French brands like Herma, Elga may have more black dials.
I don't understand why Yema watches are so rare on Ebay? They are as often seen as Swiss Pronto, Nivada, etc mid-range brands here, and sell for about the same. I saw a Lip with a demaged dial last week. It has a different manual movement. Is Lip a top grade French watch? I never saw a vintage Cartier. Someone says it is the top French brand.


----------



## hannover_dk

soviet said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I have managed to assemble a collection of *vintage* French *watches* of 1950-60's. These were popular *in* China *in* the 1960's, and they were not as expensive as similar Swiss ones. I found them rarely seen on the big auction site, Why? They are easy to find *in* *Beijing*.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Zhang


Where in Beijing - I am going there from Tuesday?? (3rd Oct)
br John


----------



## mr2blue

marc_wl said:


> Not so much in fact. Especially this artistic one. I posted a few month ago its "restoration" (restoration may be bit exagerated in this case ...) on this forum. Yema did more simpler armories simply embossed like this one :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (A Yema_ flygraf _likely Circa 1976 with a Valjoux 7750, this link or this one)​
> That's right Yema was started in France after the war II. They used either Swiss ETA, Valjoux calibers or these FE movements that are 100% French. Yema gained some international reputation due to the commercial sucessness in the US of some sport chronos like the _yatchingraf_ (Valjoux 7734), _rallygraf_ (7734) and _flygraf_, plus the diving watch like the _Iroman,_ _Superman,_ etc..
> 
> The company returned 100% French in 2005 and released some interesting re-edition and the rallygraf with quartz movement and high-quality stainless steel case. They are nice "tool" watches that I like very much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the Yema entry at Wikipedia confirmed by other sources :​
> "Yema is a watchmaking company in Besançon, France. They claim that their watches "stand out from the rest by virtue of their specific design and technological characteristics".
> 
> Founded in 1948 in Besançon (Doubs) by Henry Louis Belmont, the company distinguished itself in the very beginning by creating the first automatic chronometers manufactured entirely in France, and became famous for the technical qualities and sports characteristics of its watches.
> 
> Having been owned by Seiko Watch Corporation of Japan since 1988, the company recently returned to French hands via a buyout by Louis Eric Beckensteiner. As a result, a transition is occurring as of September, 2005. The new Chairman has set a target for watch sales of 50,000 in 2005 and 100,000 pieces with a turnover of 10 million euros in 2008".​


That's going to be tough. They only work 2 days a week and get 20 weeks vacationB-)


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> I have 5-6 Yemas, all with white dials. I have yet to see a black dial Yema. IIRC, other French brands like Herma, Elga may have more black dials.
> I don't understand why Yema watches are so rare on Ebay? They are as often seen as Swiss Pronto, Nivada, etc mid-range brands here, and sell for about the same. I saw a Lip with a demaged dial last week. It has a different manual movement. Is Lip a top grade French watch? I never saw a vintage Cartier. Someone says it is the top French brand.


Did you noticed that French watches are mostly off the international place, while the French industry was one of the most productive from 1950 to 1975 ?! :roll:

Yema watches were quite exported ( a bit to the US) and you make me aware of China!:-!

Nice!


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> Did you noticed that French watches are mostly off the international place, while the French industry was one of the most productive from 1950 to 1975 ?! :roll:
> 
> Yema watches were quite exported ( a bit to the US) and you make me aware of China!:-!
> 
> Nice!


Here is another caseback with a silver insert. This one is clear. The watch is a Swiss brand IIRC. I wonder if the Grand Seiko has a solid piece of gold insert on its caseback?:roll:


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> Did you noticed that French watches are mostly off the international place, while the French industry was one of the most productive from 1950 to 1975 ?! :roll:
> 
> Yema watches were quite exported ( a bit to the US) and you make me aware of China!:-!
> 
> Nice!


Hi Marc,

Just want to let you know. I found another vintage French brand, a Sanit 17 jewels with a textured pie pan dial and gold hands. It looks like an older watch of perhaps 1950's.|> The movement is the same as the Action's. I saw a vintage LIP the other day, but the dial is very dirty so I passed it.

Cheers.


----------



## soviet

hannover_dk said:


> Where in Beijing - I am going there from Tuesday?? (3rd Oct)
> br John


I am very sorry. I must have missed this message. There are flea markets in Beijing. The big one is Panjiayuan, But I found them in Baoguosi and another smaller market near Guanganmen on the west Nr.2 ring road.


----------



## wielingab

As long as we are talking French watches, maybe this is also one. Do not know anything about it, just bought it two years ago for an apple and an egg in France..

It has a rotating bezel, both ways, without the clicking, just as very old Rolexes do...
It changes the date at an instance at 2 minutes to twelve..

Its a Cometé, the rest I do not know..


----------



## johnbaz

hello

here's my (was) new old stock lip, i have two of these but the other one needs a clean and lube.









regards, john


----------



## soviet

Here is the newly found Sanit.I think it should be made around 1950's. The textured dial is not really my taste.


----------



## marc_wl

wielingab said:


> As long as we are talking French watches, maybe this is also one. Do not know anything about it, just bought it two years ago for an apple and an egg in France..
> 
> It has a rotating bezel, both ways, without the clicking, just as very old Rolexes do...
> It changes the date at an instance at 2 minutes to twelve..
> 
> Its a Cometé, the rest I do not know..


Hi,

Nice watch :-!. Likely a "generic"one with those funny brand names just adopted for a series. It was fashion in France to sold out popular watches by this way. The case looks quite resistant but the 40-meter resistance indicate just normal protection.

Did you have a look inside to the caliber?. I would predict either a FE (France Ebauche) or a VC (V. Cupillard) movement.

Regards,

Marc


----------



## marc_wl

johnbaz said:


> hello
> 
> here's my (was) new old stock lip, i have two of these but the other one needs a clean and lube.
> 
> regards, john


Congratulations! Its a very nice "Export" one:-!. The "Made in France" was reserved to the foreign market. Lip company and other French manufactures considered that no special indication meant implicitely indicated a local production!:-D

Did you have a look to the caliber?


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> Here is the newly found Sanit.I think it should be made around 1950's. The textured dial is not really my taste.


Again a funny brand name that I never heard before. Likely invented just for that series! :-D I would predict a VC 233 caliber inside? Am I right?

Cheers,

Marc


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> Again a funny brand name that I never heard before. Likely invented just for that series! :-D I would predict a VC 233 caliber inside? Am I right?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Marc


I could not find a model number for this movement, but it looks similar to the VC 26D movement of the Action watch except that it has a screw balance.:roll: There were 44 French brands listed on a Chinese watch repair book.(Coupor, Capital,Docdo,Dorex, Elgei, Ernos,....).:-D I also have a P.M.S. brand watch.

Cheers,

Zhang


----------



## wielingab

marc_wl said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nice watch :-!. Likely a "generic"one with those funny brand names just adopted for a series. It was fashion in France to sold out popular watches by this way. The case looks quite resistant but the 40-meter resistance indicate just normal protection.
> 
> Did you have a look inside to the caliber?. I would predict either a FE (France Ebauche) or a VC (V. Cupillard) movement.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Marc


I tried to open the back, but didn't succeed. At this moment the watch is far from waterresistant, eeven to depths of 1 cm, because the crown gasket is missing.

Maybe someday I will give it another try..

Bart


----------



## soviet

Yet another French watch with a textured dial.|> :-D


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> Yet another French watch with a textured dial.|> :-D


Very nice! A brand unknown to me. What sort of movement will you find that time in this watch?

BTW: the "VC256" (Virgile Cupillard) you've found in one of your watch and I restored in a French one recently, has an almost chronometric grade run. Really amazing...










Kind regards,

Marc


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> Very nice! A brand unknown to me. What sort of movement will you find that time in this watch?
> 
> BTW: the "VC256" (Virgile Cupillard) you've found in one of your watch and I restored in a French one recently, has an almost chronometric grade run. Really amazing...
> 
> ...
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Marc


A Chronometer quality movement? Congratulations!|> The movement in this P.M.S is similar to some other French watches, but it has a sign of a cross encircled in a square and a number of P62 under the balance. I think it is a very old movement.

Cheers,

Zhang


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> A Chronometer quality movement? Congratulations!|> The movement in this P.M.S is similar to some other French watches, but it has a sign of a cross encircled in a square and a number of P62 under the balance. I think it is a very old movement.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Zhang


Hi Soviet,

Oh! It's a French "HS" ("_Horlogerie de Savoie_") caliber type P62, likely originating from the early 60's or earlier. The stamp is the armory of this region of France called "Savoie" near Geneva, along the Swiss-France-Italy borders. The company located in Annemasse (Geneva French suburban) city was also called "LORSA" at a certain time.








​
I think it was as popular as "Cupillard" (stamp "VC"), "Parrenin" (stamp "HP") and in the late period 70/80's, "France Ebauche ("FE").

Here is some picture of a watch fitted with that P62 that I restored a few time ago with thehelp of box of parts found at the local Lyon's flea market :












































​
Do you have a picture of the watch in which you've found the caliber?


----------



## soviet

Your Eroca watch is gorgeous! :gold The movement is the same as my R.M.S. I think it should be a very old watch for the screwed balance.

BTW, I jut found another elegant YEMA date watch in very clean condition. I just can't resist them.:-D


----------



## soviet

Hi,

Here is another very clean YEMA date.:-!


----------



## marc_wl

soviet said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is another very clean YEMA date.:-!


|> Almost a NOS watch!

The following "_Sous-Marine_" (submarine) is waiting for me at the post office :








​









Still not sure but it could be well a French "HP" (Hyppolite Parrenin, Villers-le-Lac) caliber. Would my first one...

Hey! we are maintaining a small sub forum with that post! |>
​


----------



## soviet

marc_wl said:


> |> Almost a NOS watch!
> 
> The following "_Sous-Marine_" (submarine) is waiting for me at the post office :
> 
> [
> Still not sure but it could be well a French "HP" (Hyppolite Parrenin, Villers-le-Lac) caliber. Would my first one...
> 
> Hey! we are maintaining a small sub forum with that post! |>
> ​ [/CENTER]


That is a beautiful Yema. |> The movement looks like one of the early Seiko's, but I am no movement expert. Given the later relationship between Yema and Seiko, It could be possible.

I caught a French manufacturer's watch, a vintage LIP.|> I have been looking for a LIP since I heard their influence on Russian watches, but they are quite rare in China. This is already the best example that I have seen. It has a R253 movement, and it keeps excellent time.:-!

Cheers,

Zhang


----------



## marc_wl

Hi!

Congratulations for the Lip! |> The Lip calibers are of a very high quality and amenable to a chronometer grade when they are in good condition . Your R253 is an original in-house Lip design as the R23, R25. Lip watches were sometime fitted with ETA ebauches too. They are not so easy to find in France too.

My circa 1956 (50th aniversary!) R25 is keeping time +4s/day since I own it (one year ago). It was the first automatically machined Lip caliber conceived by Jean Laviolette from Lip company. First relased in 1948.




























With its funny dust protection :



















The armories on the case back are derived from those of Besançon city where theLip factories were.








​







​
here on the Besançon's city hall front.

Two watch hands positionned at 11h05 are added on the Lip stamp.








​
BTW, did you ever see the electromechanical Lip R148 or R184 (with date) on the Chinese market? They were produced at million scale and I wonder if they were exported to China too in the seventies..








​
Nowadays, sadly Lip only sells its brand on quartz watches. Very precise, but so boring...

















​
Like this chrono, pale ersatz of the prestigious Lip-Blancpain Fifty Fathoms 








​
;-)
​


----------



## JohnF

Hi -

You guys rock. 

I don't think that last LIP is boring at all! It's got more style than most Asians by far, and you have to tell me how much they run...

... and I didn't find that particular model on the LIP website, but there were these two, whose design cannot be faulted (and the price is spectacular as well...). Sure, it'd be nicer to have them as mechanicals, but it's nice to have them at all...

JohnF


----------



## marc_wl

You're right John! It's still a pity for us to see our "national watch heart" existing only under the form of "boring" movements.... I aggree that the style is still interesting though. And I should says that the quality is nice for the price. My chrono is maybe solded out now (bought it for promo 30 Euros instead of the regular 55 past August). I received it in a bundle including a box and leather band :








​


----------



## JohnF

Marc -

What a shame that it isn't available any more! That would be a nice one...

Well, if you ever decide that you need to reduce your watch count by one, you know where to go *first*. 

JohnF


----------



## soviet

Hi Marc,

Many thanks for your great reply with those historical information. Very interesting indeed.:-! I didn't know the R253 is a chronometer quality movement, but I am impressed of its accuracy. My impression is that Lip to French watches is Rolex to Swiss watches. Am I right? It is a pity they don't make mechnical watches any more.

Kind regards

Zhang


----------



## soviet

Hi,

Caught another Elge vintage with a P62 movement. It has an all Arabic hour dial and looks classic.|> 

Zhang


----------



## Magnetar

This is my grand father watch. After his death my father take it, and before he died,he give it to me. And I will give it to my son. It works fine. Sorry it is only the camera of my cell phone. I will try to give you a best photoes.
Herma Champion 50-60s


----------

