# Cartier Santos 2018: Some insider info



## Covenant

Hey all,

Just thought you'd all be interested in some tidbits I've managed to wrangle from Cartier recently regarding the Santos 2018. Disappointed with the lack of technical info on their website, I've been harassing their sales staff for a few months now to get more details. In particular, I asked the following questions:


What is the hairspring made of, and is it anti-magnetic?
In Hodinkee's recent review of the new Santos it was mentioned that the movement is "covered with a paramagnetic alloy inside the case". Does that mean that the movement is enclosed in a Faraday cage, and if so has Cartier provided a resistance rating in Gauss?
Does the movement feature bi-directional winding?
Is Cartier's steel ethically sourced?

The last one in particular has got to be a brand rep's nightmare question. No one mentions where their steel comes from (even Rolex who wax lyrical about 904L oystersteel don't actually forge it themselves, and don't specify who their supplier is), but since Cartier is a member of the Responsible Jewelry Council and has an incredibly in-depth corporate social responsibility page, I thought I'd ask and see what they respond.

Well, after speaking to several people and getting my queries referred to their headquarters in France, I finally have my answers. They are as follows:


_*"The hairspring is the same as that of 1847 movement. But the escapement and the anchor are anti-magnetic."*_ My take: Ok, that didn't directly answer my query, but it's good to know that the entire escapement is made of non-ferrous materials.
_*"No it is not a Faraday cage. It is the ring which is made of an anti-magnetic material, which comes around the movement. The watch is resisting to 1200 Gauss."*_ My take: Whoa. That's more than double the magnetic resistance rating of my Grand Seiko SBGX291, and stronger than even the Rolex Milgauss. Cartier are mad not to advertise that!
_*"Not sure to understand the question here. If the question is "is the automatic rewinding is bi-directional?" then the answer is "yes".*_ My take: good to know, and it confirms dantan's anecdotal evidence that the winding mechanism of the Santos 2018 is very efficient.
_*"Our steel is compliable with the REACH regulation."*_ My take: This is a complex answer, an requires someone smarter than I to untangle. REACH is an EU set of regulations around the "production and use of chemical substances, and their potential impacts on both human health and the environment" - taken from Wikipedia. I've found this article specifically about the steel industry in Europe, but it's a fairly wordy document and isn't yielding any immediate insights for me:

https://moew.government.bg/static/m...ls/REACH/Rakovodstva/REACH_steel_industry.pdf

Anyone who can shed some light on the REACH stuff would be appreciated; for everyone else, the above is interesting for the anti-magnetic info if nothing else!

Regards,
Jason


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## dantan

Thank you very much for taking the time to ask those questions!

It is interesting to find those out.

I am unable to chime in regarding your question about the REACH regulation. I have never even heard about it before, to be honest.

Regarding the anti-magnetism, I do agree that Cartier should boast about it! Regarding a Rolex Milgauss, though, even though the name and history suggest that it means that Rolex is saying that the current iteration is resistant to magnetic fields of up to 1,000 gauss, based on what I have read, it is a lot more than that. It is just that the original Milgauss was resistant to 1,000 gauss and hence the name, and you know what it's like - changing a name could be a bad thing from a Marketing and Sales point-of-view.

I can confirm that the power reserve and even minimal movement of my wrist keeps the Watch wound so no lack of efficiency at all.

I can also confirm that my Cartier Santos Medium Size (powered by MC 1847) is extremely accurate and approximately +1 second per day.


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## drhr

Wow Covenant, you're WIS for sure . . . I seldom/never think about a watch in such depth but this is interesting since I have the new Santos incoming, thank you sir!!


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## FutagoWatch

Man. I wish I had your knowledge. Thanks for this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## IllCommunication

Thanks for finding this out. Its good to know details like this. Do you guys know of anyone else out there making quickswitch straps?


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## dantan

I am not aware of any company making Quick Switch straps, but I sure hope that someone is!


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## dantan

A little bit of a write-up about the movement in this Review

Hands-On with the Cartier Santos 2018 Edition | SJX Watches

An upgraded movement
While earlier generations of equivalent Santos models were powered by ETA movements, the new model, in both sizes, is powered by the automatic cal. 1847 MC, which is Cartier's entry-level in-house movement. It runs at 4Hz and has a 48-hour power reserve. The 1847 MC is a simple calibre in form and function, but does the job well and is hidden behind a solid back.

While the calibre is most the same as when it was launched in 2015 inside the Cle de Cartier, it has been upgraded in one crucial aspect - magnetism resistance. That's thanks to twofold magnetism-proofing, first being the nickel phosphorus escapement components that are less easily magnetised than conventional alloys. The second layer of protection is the soft iron inner cage that shields the movements from magnetism. Together they render the movement "effectively resistant" to magnetic fields, according to Cartier.


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## Covenant

dantan said:


> While the calibre is most the same as when it was launched in 2015 inside the Cle de Cartier, it has been upgraded in one crucial aspect - magnetism resistance. That's thanks to twofold magnetism-proofing, first being the nickel phosphorus escapement components that are less easily magnetised than conventional alloys. The second layer of protection is the soft iron inner cage that shields the movements from magnetism. Together they render the movement "effectively resistant" to magnetic fields, according to Cartier.


The nickel-phosphorous comment was on Hodinkee's review of the new Santos as well. I guess I understand why Cartier doesn't advertise these things, as their general clientele probably don't care, but I wish they would. The 2018 Santos is much more than a quickswitch system and a tapered bezel, but you wouldn't know it to look at their website.


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## dantan

Covenant said:


> The nickel-phosphorous comment was on Hodinkee's review of the new Santos as well. I guess I understand why Cartier doesn't advertise these things, as their general clientele probably don't care, but I wish they would. The 2018 Santos is much more than a quickswitch system and a tapered bezel, but you wouldn't know it to look at their website.


I also wish that Cartier would advertise more.

I mean, they have put the work into the Watch, so they may as well talk themselves up a bit!


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## EvaGreen

Thanks for sharing this information.


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## Nathan356

I can chime in somewhat on the REACH regulation-> it covers environmental, health and safety in a wide variety of industries. So, as an example in the steel industry, it would look at the kinds of chemicals that might be used in the manufacturing process of the steel, banning certain kinds of chemicals and other pollutants that might be hazardous to the environment or to the health of employees. This can be pretty wide-reaching (no pun intended...) because there are a lot of chemicals used in the lubrication, corrosion prevention, cleaning, and other upkeep of machinery needed to manufacture and process steel itself that would be examined for their hazardous properties and would need to be phased out and substituted. To my knowledge it doesn't regulate the source of the actual ore.


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## Covenant

Nathan356 said:


> I can chime in somewhat on the REACH regulation-> it covers environmental, health and safety in a wide variety of industries. So, as an example in the steel industry, it would look at the kinds of chemicals that might be used in the manufacturing process of the steel, banning certain kinds of chemicals and other pollutants that might be hazardous to the environment or to the health of employees. This can be pretty wide-reaching (no pun intended...) because there are a lot of chemicals used in the lubrication, corrosion prevention, cleaning, and other upkeep of machinery needed to manufacture and process steel itself that would be examined for their hazardous properties and would need to be phased out and substituted. To my knowledge it doesn't regulate the source of the actual ore.


That's great information, thanks!


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## Covenant

Just an update, I've been querying Cartier some more about technical aspects of the Santos. In particular I've asked what hairspring is being used, what steel is being used for the watch case, and what accuracy guarantees if any are provided with the timepiece. After a month or so delay while my queries likely bounced around various departments, they have responded with the below:

*1. What is the hairspring of the Cartier 1847 MC movement found within the Santos made of?

Hairspring is made of nivaflex like the majority or our watchmaking*

My take: At first read I thought this was Nivarox, that near-ubiquitous alloy owned by the Swatch group. But this is a different alloy altogether. Niva*flex* actually has a datasheet and exact alloy composition available online:
https://generaleressorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/generale-ressorts-bienne-nivaflex-45-5.pdf

Of particular note here is that this alloy is non-magnetic. So the movement in the Cartier Santos updated in 2018 has an escapement which is entirely anti-magnetic, *and* has a soft iron ring around the movement for extra protection.

*2. What specific kind of steel does Cartier use for the Santos? Is it the industry-standard 316L, or a different alloy?

In the majority of our watchmaking pieces we do use the standard 316L*

*For the gold & steel versions we use a more high end steel*

My take: Questions that beget questions! Now I want to know what this "more high end steel" is, but I'll leave them alone for now 

*3. Does Cartier provide any warranty or guarantee of the daily timekeeping accuracy of the Santos? 
We are not delivering certificate to ensure the watch accuracy.

If accuracy goes wrong, it's the watch guarantee that takes over and the watch gets fixed.*

My take: this is a bit of a non-statement, but I'm happy that I got hairspring alloy information at least.

Hope this is of some interest to you all


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## Ducatiti

2. What specific kind of steel does Cartier use for the Santos? Is it the industry-standard 316L, or a different alloy?

In the majority of our watchmaking pieces we do use the standard 316L

For the gold & steel versions we use a more high end steel


Do you guys believe the above answer? TT has a higher quality steel?

Also, I don't think that winding is bi-directional as it does turns smoothly turning counter-clockwise. No resistance or sound at all. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Covenant

Ducatiti said:


> 2. What specific kind of steel does Cartier use for the Santos? Is it the industry-standard 316L, or a different alloy?
> 
> In the majority of our watchmaking pieces we do use the standard 316L
> 
> For the gold & steel versions we use a more high end steel
> 
> Do you guys believe the above answer? TT has a higher quality steel?
> 
> Also, I don't think that winding is bi-directional as it does turns smoothly turning counter-clockwise. No resistance or sound at all. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Bi-directional was referring to the rotor of the movement, rather than the crown which I think is what you're referring to.

Regarding a more "high-end steel", I believe that Cartier uses a _different_ alloy for their two-tone pieces. It may even be a more expensive alloy, like 904L. The reasons will likely be aesthetic, to match the high polish of gold, rather than practical.


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## Ducatiti

Covenant said:


> Bi-directional was referring to the rotor of the movement, rather than the crown which I think is what you're referring to.
> 
> Regarding a more "high-end steel", I believe that Cartier uses a _different_ alloy for their two-tone pieces. It may even be a more expensive alloy, like 904L. The reasons will likely be aesthetic, to match the high polish of gold, rather than practical.


Thanks for confirming, I kinda figured that out after I posted that 

By any chance, do you know what "Stainless Steel 4072" stands for which is marked on a TT case? My wife's SS has "4075"..


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## Covenant

Ducatiti said:


> Thanks for confirming, I kinda figured that out after I posted that
> 
> By any chance, do you know what "Stainless Steel 4072" stands for which is marked on a TT case? My wife's SS has "4075"..


My best guess is it's a parts code. It doesn't refer to any alloy of steel that I'm familiar with.


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## Pun

Covenant said:


> Ducatiti said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. What specific kind of steel does Cartier use for the Santos? Is it the industry-standard 316L, or a different alloy?
> 
> In the majority of our watchmaking pieces we do use the standard 316L
> 
> For the gold & steel versions we use a more high end steel
> 
> Do you guys believe the above answer? TT has a higher quality steel?.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding a more "high-end steel", I believe that Cartier uses a _different_ alloy for their two-tone pieces. It may even be a more expensive alloy, like 904L. The reasons will likely be aesthetic, to match the high polish of gold, rather than practical.
Click to expand...

Yes indeed the Santos TT steel has a warm cream tinge that's very different from a cold white steel feel that normally steel watches have. It's much different from the Rolex steel as well when I match mine with Explorer 1.


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## Ducatiti

Pun said:


> Yes indeed the Santos TT steel has a warm cream tinge that's very different from a cold white steel feel that normally steel watches have. It's much different from the Rolex steel as well when I match mine with Explorer 1.


Never would have noticed this but I think that you are correct!


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## Covenant

I've asked my Cartier rep to see if they can clarify what this "higher end steel" is. I continue to be absolutely baffled by their inability or unwillingness to publicize this stuff of their own accord. The Santos has some really cool watchmaking cred under its hood, but you wouldn't know it to look at their product page.

If the steel used for the two tone really is better than 316L in some objective sense, that would be a major selling point.


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## Pun

Covenant said:


> I've asked my Cartier rep to see if they can clarify what this "higher end steel" is. I continue to be absolutely baffled by their inability or unwillingness to publicize this stuff of their own accord. The Santos has some really cool watchmaking cred under its hood, but you wouldn't know it to look at their product page.
> 
> If the steel used for the two tone really is better than 316L in some objective sense, that would be a major selling point.


I agree. I feel that it can be a stronger case for to pay a thousand plus dollars extra for gold bezel and a better steel case and bracelet. I also think they might have decided not to publicize the fact as it might dent in their all steel models sales.


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## johpe

Hi,

Does anyone know what is the difference between the 1847 MC and 1847-2 MC branded movements / calibres?



















A newer iteration with some improvements? Seems really hard to find any info about it on the Internet.


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## quakeroatmeal

Also, a question for those who have taken apart their new Santos watch, Federico, from Federico talks watches mentioned that Cartier was using plastic clips to hold the movement in place in their lower end models. Does that include the Santos?


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## johpe

quakeroatmeal said:


> Also, a question for those who have taken apart their new Santos watch, Federico, from Federico talks watches mentioned that Cartier was using plastic clips to hold the movement in place in their lower end models. Does that include the Santos?


From what I've seen there is no plastic holding the movement in place in the Santos de Cartier.


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## neverover

quakeroatmeal said:


> Also, a question for those who have taken apart their new Santos watch, Federico, from Federico talks watches mentioned that Cartier was using plastic clips to hold the movement in place in their lower end models. Does that include the Santos?


I think they stopped doing that since couple of years ago. I think I've seen Tank Solo with plastic movement holder before, but now all newer Tank Solo have metal movement holder. Probably somebody who worked with them caught wind with that. Although I heard that plastic movement holder is more stable in holding the caliber.


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## mjrchabot

neverover said:


> I think they stopped doing that since couple of years ago. I think I've seen Tank Solo with plastic movement holder before, but now all newer Tank Solo have metal movement holder. Probably somebody who worked with them caught wind with that. Although I heard that plastic movement holder is more stable in holding the caliber.


And depending on the polymer used, "plastic" can be more expensive than steel. People automatically assume plastic is cheap, when it is a better candidate for shock absorption than steel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## johpe

johpe said:


> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone know what is the difference between the 1847 MC and 1847-2 MC branded movements / calibres?
> 
> View attachment 15955533
> 
> 
> View attachment 15955536
> 
> 
> A newer iteration with some improvements? Seems really hard to find any info about it on the Internet.


Answering my-self with a semi-confirmed guess; the 1847-2 is the "no-date" medium version while the 1847 is the large version with date. From looking at images of the Santos de Cartier online it seems to correlate well. Anyone that might be able to confirm this 100%?


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## johpe

johpe said:


> Answering my-self with a semi-confirmed guess; the 1847-2 is the "no-date" medium version while the 1847 is the large version with date. From looking at images of the Santos de Cartier online it seems to correlate well. Anyone that might be able to confirm this 100%?


Answering myself again... Just got confirmation from Cartier that this is actually the case; the 1847-2 is the same movement as 1847 but with a "no-date" (and/or small seconds) variation.


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## Covenant

Update:

After pestering Cartier's press department, very politely but very persistently, for the past several years, I've finally gotten an answer about the different steel used in the two-tone Santos.

Turns out, their all-steel models use regular 316L (EN 1.4435), while the two-tone steel and gold versions use 316LVM (EN 1.4441 "implant grade" or "medical grade" stainless steel).

Here's a description from a Swiss metals supplier:
_"Austenitic stainless steel with similar composition as 316 L, but with restricted tolerance for impurities. This stainless steel presents a greater corrosion resistance as compared to 316 L and is particularly adapted for medical applications (e.g. Implants). This steel complies with the standard EN 1811 and can be used for products in direct and prolonged contact with skin."_

That certainly lives up to the claim that the two tone uses a "higher end" steel. This is the first time I've heard of 316LVM in watchmaking.


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## johpe

Covenant said:


> Update:
> 
> After pestering Cartier's press department, very politely but very persistently, for the past several years, I've finally gotten an answer about the different steel used in the two-tone Santos.
> 
> Turns out, their all-steel models use regular 316L (EN 1.4435), while the two-tone steel and gold versions use 316LVM (EN 1.4441 "implant grade" or "medical grade" stainless steel).
> 
> Here's a description from a Swiss metals supplier:
> _"Austenitic stainless steel with similar composition as 316 L, but with restricted tolerance for impurities. This stainless steel presents a greater corrosion resistance as compared to 316 L and is particularly adapted for medical applications (e.g. Implants). This steel complies with the standard EN 1811 and can be used for products in direct and prolonged contact with skin."_
> 
> That certainly lives up to the claim that the two tone uses a "higher end" steel. This is the first time I've heard of 316LVM in watchmaking.


Nice info! 
I couldn't help but dig up som data on the different steels:





Sandvik 316LVM — Sandvik Materials Technology


S31673




www.materials.sandvik












Sanmac® 316/316L


316, 316L, S31600, S31603, 1.4401, 1.4404




www.materials.sandvik




Seems to be some small differences in the actual composition of them and so on...


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## johpe

I've continued the pestering (@Covenant) of Cartier's customer service (they are very friendly and helpful) with questions.

First they got back to me with regards to the "-2" in the movement name "1847-2" MC with this:
The additional digit was used to identify the type of caliber:
1847-3 = Hour minutes
1847-2 = Hours minutes seconds
1847 = Hours minutes seconds perpetual calendar 
And they also said that they are moving away from this and all movements will simply be branded "1847" now.

Then I asked about the accuracy of the Santos de Cartier and they stated +/- 10 seconds per 24h for the automatic 1847 MC movement (and within 1 second per month for their quartz movements). I can add that my Santos is about +1s / 24h.

And finally I asked what Cartier actually mean with the "silvered opaline dial" on the Santos de Cartier (that's what they call the dial on their web page). And this was the answer to that question:
"The silvered opaline dial is a dial plated or coated with silver giving it a creamy look like an opaline gemstone, a mineral noted for its rich iridescence."


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## Jack55555

@johpe Does the 1847MC Caliber Hack and Handwind?


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## Chrono Brewer

Jack55555 said:


> @johpe Does the 1847MC Caliber Hack and Handwind?


Yes, my Santos Medium with 1847MC will hack and hand-wind.


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## somethingonmywrist

johpe said:


> Then I asked about the accuracy of the Santos de Cartier and they stated +/- 10 seconds per 24h for the automatic 1847 MC movement (and within 1 second per month for their quartz movements). I can add that my Santos is about +1s / 24h.


The quartz movements' tolerance is 1 sec per month, or approximately 10 spy? That's High Accuracy Quartz (e.g. Grand Seiko 9F's published standards)!


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