# Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)



## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

I am a collector who goes nuts about micro brands & independent watchmakers with high end quality.

To be more specific about the quality, the finishing has to be at least more than those like Jaeger or Glashutte Original, if it's going to cost more than $10,000

I would actually prefer the case sizes to be 40mm or less (wrist circumference about 16cm which is like 6.5 inch), but can negotiate with the reality a bit.

These are the brands I already know and like:

Thomas Ninchritz (and all other brands on WB like Benzinger, Jaeger Benzinger, Kudoke, Dornblueth & Sohn, etc) -> these cost less than $10,000, but cost-to-quality wise I think they are superb and are worth collecting.

Keaton Myrick (Friend's recent recommendation)

Arnold & Son

Jacquet Droz (well... thank god they have some 39mm models...)

*
These are the brands that are already in my planning-to-buy list: perhaps they could tell you more about my style*

H. Moser & Cie

Romain Gauthier

Andreas Strehler

Lang & Heyne

Czapek & Cie.

Raul Pagès (Friend's recent recommendation)

Moritz Grossmann

Ressence

Recent discovery was Thomas Ninchritz, Dornbluth & Sohn, Raul Pagès and Keaton Myrick.

BTW, if you didn't know who Raul Pages and Keaton Myrick was, I recommend you look into them. They are some serious stuff.

They are micro high end watchmakers (both use calibers based on something else, but ofc quite modified. RP uses Cyma vintage caliber and KM uses UNITAS 6497)

They are both super interesting. Raul Pages apparently worked under Philippe Dufour (which explains their similar quality of bevelling bridges)
and Keaton Myrick is a watchmaker from U.S.!

Pics of their work.

Keaton Myrick (All Dial can be done custom I think) - Not 100% certain but my friend told me it costs about a bit less than $20,000





























p.s. this movement design reminded me the movement of Arnold & Son's UTTE. Plus brushing on the plates reminded me of finishing of Seiko Credor Eichi series.









and now, my more favorite Raul Pages - isn't the finishing just amazing? This model, Soberly Onyx, is a limited edition of only 10 pieces and cost $48,000. That's quite expensive. But the design of the dial and movement finishing is just downright superb imho, worth the money. Perhaps some would prefer Laurent Ferrier in this price range though. I, too think that the price is a bit high. But if you want uniqueness this is ur stuff, like me 





















So let's get back to the question at hand!

Anyone know other secretive, unknown to public, micro high end watch brands or watchmakers?

perfect hit spot would be case size 42mm or smaller, price range can be anywhere possible. Just not over $100,000.

OH AND BTW, forgot to mention. I prefer very classic designs. Sucker for Time-only (+ perhaps Power Reserve Indicator) with clean dial design.


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## KtWUS (Mar 19, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

I wish people would use something other than the Unitas giant movements! It'll be nice to see some smaller pieces that are as well finished, but I guess high-end manual wound movements are not that easy to source?


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



KtWUS said:


> I wish people would use something other than the Unitas giant movements! It'll be nice to see some smaller pieces that are as well finished, but I guess high-end manual wound movements are not that easy to source?


I agree on that one. The only reason I am hesitant about buying a Thomas Ninchritz piece.

His pieces are all 42mm, with dressy designs with time-only function!

Not sure about KM's case sizes tho. I heard one UNITAS based caliber successfully got into a german brand's watch with case size of 41mm.

Forgot the name of the brand though.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Checkout, Christian Klings, Vianney Halter, McGonigle and Thomas Prescher.


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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

McGonigle Brothers (Ireland)
Tourby Watches (Germany)
Schofield (England)
Bexei (Hungary)
Frederic Jouvenot (Switzerland)
Volker Vyskocil (Germany)
Beat Haldimann (Switzerland)
Pierre Kunz (Switzerland)
Vincenterra (Switzerland)
Lebeau-Courally (Belgium-Switzerland)
A Favre et Fils (Switzerland)

And that’s barely even scratching the surface.


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Watchbreath said:


> Checkout, Christian Klings, Vianney Halter, McGonigle and Thomas Prescher.


Good to see you again Mr. Watchbreath! Thanks for the recommendations, I know Vianney and Prescher. Vianney's dial designs are too much for me though, kinda too futuristic like MB&F. Thomas Prescher suits my taste a bit better, except his watches don't speak to me to a level where i would agree spending money on them. But will def. check out Christian Klings and McGonigle, Thanks!


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



PJ S said:


> McGonigle Brothers (Ireland)
> Tourby Watches (Germany)
> Schofield (England)
> Bexei (Hungary)
> ...


All except Pierre Kunz is new to me! Thanks for the recommendation, will check them out!


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Watchbreath said:


> Checkout, Christian Klings, Vianney Halter, McGonigle and Thomas Prescher.


Christian Klings looks very good, even the price. He is def. in my list now!

McGonigle, sadly no. Design not really speaking to me.

Thanks again!


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

At a much lower price, but still worth a look, Thomas Gref.


humanalien said:


> Good to see you again Mr. Watchbreath! Thanks for the recommendations, I know Vianney and Prescher. Vianney's dial designs are too much for me though, kinda too futuristic like MB&F. Thomas Prescher suits my taste a bit better, except his watches don't speak to me to a level where i would agree spending money on them. But will def. check out Christian Klings and McGonigle, Thanks!


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



PJ S said:


> McGonigle Brothers (Ireland)
> Tourby Watches (Germany)
> Schofield (England)
> Bexei (Hungary)
> ...


McGonigle recommended by Watchbreath, and design is not speaking to me!

*Tourby watches* look amazing, especially considering their price. Is it really impossible to find UNITAS 6497~8 movement watches with 40mm case size though?!

Schofield looks ok, dial design is so-so, but cost wise the movement quality doesn't look that good.

*Bexei* looks really good, dial design and movement looks fantastic. Price ($42,000+) is indeed high but cost wise I think they're good enough. In my list now!

Frederic Jourvenot looks interesting, and I mean very interesting, but cost is too much compared to its appearance IMO.

*Volker Vyskocil* looks good too, not sure what current price is but if his piece is really under 25,000 euros it is def. on the high priority list.

Beat Haldimann, not speaking to me at all.

Pierre Kunz, no. Looks kinda... "inexpensive".

Vincenterra looks a bit interesting, but doesn't look it's worth spending my money.

Lebeau-Courally looks ok, a bit expensive tho. Could be in my list but with very low priority. Their blue grand feu enamel dial looks very good.

*A Favre et Fils* looks good too with its pricing starting from 17,000 euros. Would be in my lower end of priority list though. My favorite model from them kinda looks too similar to my H. Moser & Cie.

Tourby watch for affordable-n-quick experience,

Bexei looks the best in movement appearance, but Volker looks best in cost-wise.

A Favre et Fils looks good but too many competitors.

Thank you so much!


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Watchbreath said:


> At a much lower price, but still worth a look, Thomas Gref.


Woah, I remember this. I've been to his website like a year ago. Good to see it again though.
Will have to look more but case size of 43mm is too big for me. I prefer manual wind movement so although I love ETA 2824 this is kind of a let down for me. BUT, considering he has very well-executed watches with really attarctive price seems a hugh plus for me. Maybe one day!


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

First off, let's be real. All high end makes are microbrands. Patek is probably the highest volume one and their annual volume is somewhere around 50K pieces. ALS, on the other hand, runs around 5K pieces.

Someone surely has by now mentioned RGM.

Others you'll find listed here.

You may want to look into Robert Loomes too.

All the best.


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## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

How about RGM?

Watches â€" RGM Watch Co.

Beaten to the punch by one minute, I see.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Also see:
-- https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/new...igh-end-german-brand-glash%FCtte-2884545.html
-- https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/wilhelm-rieber-learning-something-new-all-time-3822218.html
-- Benzinger 
-- Graff


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## mojojojo (Nov 22, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Probably easiest to provide recommendations based on what you currently own. What's in your stable atm?


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## mojojojo (Nov 22, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

May be of interest;

Habring2
Roger Smith
Jean Daniel Nicholas
Urban Jurgensen
No one's mentioned Journe?


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## ar7iste (Sep 24, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Anyone ever heard of Rolf Lang ? The brand is from Dresden it seems, I really love their creations.









I'm also digging the Lang & Heyne collection, never heard of it before, looks fantastic!


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## iim7v7im7 (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

A couple more:

Gronefeld
Laurent Ferrier
Romain Gauthier
Speake-Marin
Urban Jurgensen & Sonner


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## schrop (Jan 25, 2010)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Vyskocil - don't think anyone's ever gotten one watch from him.

Glad people mentioned Speake-Marin, Gronefeld, Habring and Urban Jurgensen - the first three are retailed by Passion Fine Jewelry.

The Keaton Myrick is too big, I agree. Too bad you don't like the McGonigle. The Roger Smith is over 100K.

But get a Lang and Heyne. You will not regret it.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Amazing, no one mention Christiaan van der Klaauw yet. Gotta be the coolest watches out there.


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



tony20009 said:


> Also see:
> -- https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/new-discovery-moritz-grossmann-yet-another-high-end-german-brand-glash%FCtte-2884545.html
> -- https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/wilhelm-rieber-learning-something-new-all-time-3822218.html
> -- Benzinger
> -- Graff


Um, if you haven't noticed I'm the guy who posted that Moritz Grossmann link! Haha

Benzinger I already know, think his work is cool but his engravings are too much for me.


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



ar7iste said:


> Anyone ever heard of Rolf Lang ? The brand is from Dresden it seems, I really love their creations.
> 
> View attachment 10575866
> 
> ...


Yes Lang & Heyne is fabulous.

rolf lang I do know and checked out few days ago, but sadly all his watches have big case sizes. It was something like 43mm.


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

i am aware most high end brands are micro, but what I meant was stealth brands where even WIS wouldn't normally know.

brands like Laurent Ferrier and Journe are already too well known in my standards (so u understand now when I mean I want to discover REALLY stealthy brands!)

Urban J, roger smith, van der klaauw, gronefeld, speake marin, habring 2 I already knew, and Romain Gauthier was already in my to-buy list as stated in the OP (but as some of you may have already guessed I'm not fan of their Logical One but instead prefer smaller case and cleaner dial models)

Others are all new like Jean D, RGM and etc. Will check once I get home, thanks guys!


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## mpalmer (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

RGM would be an obvious option with endless customization options; their in house offerings are > than 40mm though...

Hajime Asaoka is a unique option...


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## Fatz028 (Mar 14, 2009)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



mpalmer said:


> RGM would be an obvious option with endless customization options; their in house offerings are > than 40mm though...
> 
> Hajime Asaoka is a unique option...


You took the words right out of my mouth with RGM. I don't think anyone can make a dial like he can. I got to meet him and sat next to him and watched him in action making a dial.

Habring2 makes some interesting watches also.


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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

I'd be surprised if there's more than only a handful who've heard of (or remembered) Zeitwinkel.
And let's see a show of hands for having heard of Pierre DeRoche? (Although the TNT Royal Retro 43 is above the OP's max case size)
And similarly, the French brand Peqignet.

Christophe Claret has launched a new model at 42mm, but 16mm thick - limited to 88 pieces in each of the two variants, and under CHF 80K
BLU (Bernhard Lederer Universe) is one which I'm hesitant to suggest, as he might've closed the doors.
Armi Strom is one which could be of interest - Armin Strom Elegance Man WG08-EM.60

And whilst not independent, I have to suggest one which I have really taken to - Leroy.
Part of the Festina Group, making around 300 pieces, and did the Soprod movement decoration and rotors for Perrelet.

And if a really well finished movement was required, and if you'd be willing to look at pre-2007, then Minerva Villeret models should be closely inspected.
Alas, the brand is now part of Richemont, affiliated almost exclusively with Montblanc.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



humanalien said:


> i am aware most high end brands are micro, but *what I meant was stealth brands where even WIS wouldn't normally know.*
> 
> brands like Laurent Ferrier and Journe are already *too well known* in my standards (so u understand now when I mean I want to discover REALLY stealthy brands!)
> 
> ...


Those who know they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity.
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Red:
Oh, I think I understand now. It seems you seek hermetically perceived watchmakers and then consider their wares' horological and styling sufficiency, instead of defining the traits you desire and finding watches/makers who are predisposed to make items in accordance with your preferences. If I glean correctly your goals, you do so to maximize the obscurity of the the pieces you obtain. Yes?

Okay....People have their reasons for wanting what they want....You clearly have yours. I can't say I quite understand it, but then neither do I need to. There's no question that one can craft a very fine collection of watches using your curatorial methodology. What I don't grasp about it is whether you intentionally want to craft a collection of "one hit wonders," if you know what I mean? For instance, to this day I absolutely adore Animotion's _Obsession _, but I don't have to buy the CD, go to a concert or buy the video, but when I hear it at a party, I'm ready to dance to it.






I dare say you'll be hard pressed to find WISes haven't heard of any makes of watch, particularly important makers. If you feel the need to plumb a repository listing of all the little-known makes of watches, you may care to undertake a "click fest" here.

I have to say that I'm amazed you've not included Kari V., Antoine Preziuso, C. Claret, Denis F./De Bethune, Gallet (dating from the 1400s, they are oldest watchmaker on the planet, still family owned and operated, and the reason for the qualifying language -- uninterrupted history of 260 years -- in VC's slogan), and P. Gerber (Ref. 331 has his PG's own original escapement design, which is as sui generis as it gets) on your list. Perhaps they aren't uncommonly seen enough? To my objectively driven sensibilities they are for I suspect one can count on one or two hands the quantity of people on Internet watch forums who've seen such watches in a boutique and messed about with them, much less on an owner's wrist.

You've surely considered this, but just in case you haven't....

Be sure to first buy a watch that you can wear while your esoterica is being serviced or when you don't want to expose a hard-to-have-maintained watch to life's vicissitudes.
Find and develop a very good relationship with several watchmakers because sooner or later the makers of the esoteric watches you desire will go out of business (be it economically/biologically) or be acquired. You can't control that, nor can you control the availability of parts and materials, but you can engage the services of a master watchmaker who can produce the parts and whatnot that sooner or later the watches may need.

All the best.

People go on marrying because they can't resist natural forces, although many of them may know perfectly well that they are possibly buying a month's pleasure with a life's discomfort.
― Thomas Hardy, _Jude the Obscure_


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

If you didn't get it from the prior post, maybe this will help.






...Just having a retro moment....

All the best.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



humanalien said:


> I am a collector who goes nuts about micro brands & independent watchmakers with high end quality.
> 
> To be more specific about the quality, the finishing has to be at least more than those like Jaeger or Glashutte Original, if it's going to cost more than $10,000
> 
> ...


All those guys -- KM, Pages, KV, et al -- strike me as makers who explore/innovate modern approaches to finishing execution. I mean really, stripes are nice, but how many "striped shirts" must one have? Particularly when one is going to have lots of them anyway just because so many nice ones are offered.

All the best.


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## dinodays (May 8, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



humanalien said:


> I agree on that one. The only reason I am hesitant about buying a Thomas Ninchritz piece.
> 
> His pieces are all 42mm, with dressy designs with time-only function!
> 
> ...


Stowa has a Unitas 6798 in a 41mm case. But that's prob not who you are thinking about.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dinodays (May 8, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



humanalien said:


> i am aware most high end brands are micro, but what I meant was stealth brands where even WIS wouldn't normally know.
> 
> brands like Laurent Ferrier and Journe are already too well known in my standards (so u understand now when I mean I want to discover REALLY stealthy brands!)
> 
> ...


I have a custom made RGM-really do love it. May have to have them build another one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dinodays (May 8, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



mpalmer said:


> RGM would be an obvious option with endless customization options; their in house offerings are > than 40mm though...
> 
> Hajime Asaoka is a unique option...


I am hesitant about asking them if they can squeeze their 801 into something smaller. Because if they say yes I will go for it. Just awaiting his new square watch late 2017 first and seeing final cost/size.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



PJ S said:


> I'd be surprised if there's more than only a handful who've heard of (or remembered) Zeitwinkel.
> And let's see a show of hands for having heard of Pierre DeRoche? (Although the TNT Royal Retro 43 is above the OP's max case size)
> And similarly, the French brand Peqignet.
> 
> ...


Oh darn! I did know about Zeitwinkel but totally have forgotten about them!
Pierre and Pegignet, and BLU, Leroy, and Minver Villeret are news to me.

Christophe Claret doesn't seem like a brand for me, too complex designs + big case sizes + too many tourbillons (which makes the price unaffordable)

Armin Strom I knew, designs are a bit ok but case size and movements don't fascinate me.

Will check out the names u mention.

Zeitwinkel, checked thoroughly, looks awesome.

Pierre, movement finishing looks bland. Dial design of grandcliff pure is awesome but otherwise no for me!

Pegignet looks like a really affordable-ranged brand. I didn't expect quartz watches to open up.
+oh wait, I checked out their manufacture and it indeed turned out to be interesting. good prices too.

BLU, not much information. Plus their website is down.

Minerva Villeret looks cool but don't think I will actually get one.

Oh wait, forgot about Leroy. Their Marine Chronometer looked really good until I read case size is 43mm. Sad!

Zeitwinkel + Pequitnet seems to be the best gain from this list, and they do look super cool. Thank you tons!


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



tony20009 said:


> Those who know they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity.
> ― Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> I have to say that I'm amazed you've not included Kari V., Antoine Preziuso, C. Claret, Denis F./De Bethune, Gallet (dating from the 1400s, they are oldest watchmaker on the planet, still family owned and operated, and the reason for the qualifying language -- uninterrupted history of 260 years -- in VC's slogan), and P. Gerber (Ref. 331 has his PG's own original escapement design, which is as sui generis as it gets) on your list. Perhaps they aren't uncommonly seen enough? To my objectively driven sensibilities they are for I suspect one can count on one or two hands the quantity of people on Internet watch forums who've seen such watches in a boutique and messed about with them, much less on an owner's wrist.
> ...


I believe Kari V is well known just like Journe, Preziuso's good enough but too complex dial designs, C. Claret's design too futuristic as well, De Bethune I did know too, Gallet I didn't, P. Gerber I knew and looks real good except cost-wise pricing.

That leaves me I have to check out Gallet.

Perhaps the reason I am seeking stealthy high end brands is because the current well known high ends do not appeal to me that much, and naturally i would look for "what are other high ends? = what are high ends unknown to usual public?"

Plus, I want a watch that feels truly special to me, meaning not many others in the world have the same. Reason why I love H. Moser & Cie and their slogan *"If you want the same watch as everybody else, then H. Moser may not be for you."* so yeah, I love designs like H. Moser & Cie (clean and simple, with good movement + finishing with low production numbers)


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



humanalien said:


> *I believe Kari V is well known* just like Journe, Preziuso's good enough but too complex dial designs, C. Claret's design too futuristic as well, De Bethune *I did know too*, Gallet I didn't, P. Gerber *I knew* and *looks real good except cost-wise pricing*.
> 
> That leaves me I have to check out Gallet.
> 
> ...


You sound like one of those "I don't care how good Rolexes are. I don't want one because "everyone" else has one." I find that to be absolutely ridiculous, and it doesn't become less so merely because one swaps "Rolex" for some other make. That said, it's your money and wrist, so by all means be as ridiculous as you see fit to be. Far be it from me to truly want to deter you; I'm merely sharing my take on the novelty of that theme.

Personally, my favorite esoteric watch is the Badollet Ivresse. It's uncomplicated, has an innovative movement implementation and looks fierce.











Red:
Really? Ask around. Unless you travel in very, very rarefied air, "nobody's" heard of him. Ask your friends and coworkers. Do a search for threads about Kari V. watches. You will find some that mention his name and far fewer about his watches. Sure people know who he is. If they didn't, they couldn't mention the make to you.

Blue:
Is the criteria that you've never heard of the maker, or that most other folks have not?

Pink:
Bizarre....Esoteric, JLC+ grade finishing, high end, and price is material enough to mention as an objection? A fully original escapement -- not just making one's own standard lever escapement watch, inventing a new escapement -- inside a finely finished watch case and movement and you see ~$30K that for as objectionable? As I said, bizarre....That's you, though....

Green:
Have you purchased an HMC or any of the other watches/makes you listed in your OP? If not, perhaps it'd be good to start off with one of them. The HMC seems like a fine place to start seeing as you like it quite a lot and it's adequately arcane, even though you've heard of them. The nearly dozen or so watches you plan to buy are all quite fine.

All the best.


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



tony20009 said:


> *You sound like one of those "I don't care how good Rolexes are. I don't want one because "everyone" else has one." I find that to be absolutely ridiculous, and it doesn't become less so merely because one swaps "Rolex" for some other make. That said, it's your money and wrist, so by all means be as ridiculous as you see fit to be. Far be it from me to truly want to deter you; I'm merely sharing my take on the novelty of that theme.*
> *
> Really? Ask around. Unless you travel in very, very rarefied air, "nobody's" heard of him. Ask your friends and coworkers. Do a search for threads about Kari V. watches. You will find some that mention his name and far fewer about his watches. Sure people know who he is. If they didn't, they couldn't mention the make to you.
> 
> ...


Bold: Well, I might have forgotten to mention but of course I don't go like "EVERYTHING about this watch is good but it is too well known so bleh." Esoteric-ness of watchmakers/brands are merely one of the important factors, and the reason I don't like stuff like Voutilainen is because it definitely does not fit my taste in its design.

Also, let's get something clear on the way: I never said anything about me wanting ONLY esoteric watches. I do appreciate and love Rolex, and I do love watches that are highly praised by millions of people. *BUT in this thread* I'm not attempting to discuss such watches. This topic was *intended *to be limited on esoteric watches. I'm not really sure what "I can't believe what you're saying, I don't understand the madness"'s are all about; unless you were offended by my words or something I see no reason to bring up such comments in the first place, because you seem to be reiterating it quite few times. Possibly you misunderstood my words as that I look down on popular watches? Well no worries, voila! I love them tons as well, so hope there's no misunderstandings there. Or, if you really think going after rare, unknown watches are ridiculous, I guess my words can't help to make you understand. If then would you say that the famous slogan from HMC is ridiculous as well? I don't think it's that weird to go after esoteric watches, but I understand people have different opinions, so I respect yours.

Red: Maybe I was replying to someone else, but as stated before in this very thread my standard was "unknown to even most of WISs out there". Therefore my point still stands I think. Thinking about it, if I just reword my question it would be "I want to know about brands I haven't known until now." that is because I meet WIS standards, and already know most of the brands/names in AHCI. Isn't it then natural to have a desire to look for stuff you don't know?

Blue: My apologies if it caused misunderstandings. Yes I meant it to be "I already know of the maker so pass!" And this pass means I feel no need to discuss it further, not that the maker is not fine or anything. It's like "share me some unknown movies!" "how about Titanic?" "I know that one so let's talk about something else!"

Pink: Yes the price indeed is an objection because other watches that compete much better for that price+finishing+my design taste are already in my list, duh! You have $10, and your most favorite ice cream is $7, and a similar-quality ice cream is $8. Both of them are nice but why go for $8 when my loving ice cream only costs $7? When $7 ice creams all run out and I have no better options left, THEN maybe I would consider buying a $8 one. But the watch world is just too vast and I have limited money, if i really do intend on buying stuff like R. Gauthier and etc. So yes, I would like to not spend money on timepieces that I feel like they are not cost-efficient, if that is alright.

Green: Yes I do already own a HMC piece. And I'm planning to buy just one more HMC... having trouble selecting which one though.

BTW, I just skimmed through that video of Badollet Ivresse and it looks fantastic. Will check out more thoroughly soon.

Thanks always for your insights Tony!

All the best.


----------



## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

*Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

I'm partial to Bernhard Lederer (BLU), having recently acquired one. Most of the watches under the BLU branding are based on the 2892, but these are usually totally disguised under the custom BLU rotor system which gives a unique feel to the pieces. They come in 39 and 42 mm cases.










I believe that the brand is no longer in business. Used BLU watches can be had for a song and are hard to match in terms of finish. Lederer's newest ventures (Manufacture de haute horlogerie et microméchanique or the Al Noor watch) are much higher end.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



humanalien said:


> ...
> 
> Red: Maybe I was replying to someone else, but as stated before in this very thread my standard was "unknown to even most of WISs out there". Therefore my point still stands I think. Thinking about it, if I just reword my question it would be "I want to know about brands I haven't known until now." that is because I meet WIS standards, and already know most of the brands/names in AHCI. Isn't it then natural to have a desire to *look for stuff you don't know?*
> 
> ...


YW

So the Mater Horologer link I shared earlier is for you. ABTW has a similar brands listing.

All the best.


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## Kanokus (Jan 27, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

These are incredible pieces

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand &amp; Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



ar7iste said:


> Anyone ever heard of Rolf Lang ? The brand is from Dresden it seems, I really love their creations.


Very nice. Did not know this brand before, but I'm definitely considering now.



humanalien said:


> Perhaps the reason I am seeking stealthy high end brands is because the current well known high ends do not appeal to me that much, and naturally i would look for "what are other high ends? = what are high ends unknown to usual public?"


I'm in the same boat as you. I really do appreciate small, independent brands that at least encroach on high end territory. That being said, here is my list that has not been mentioned yet:


Louis Moinet - Many of their pieces do not appeal to me, but I used to own the Mecanograph, and I really liked that watch:




Pascal Coyon - If you like Keaton Myrick, then you'll like Pascal, who takes a Unitas and completely transforms it. Talk about finishing. Pascal is a French watchmaker, and his debut watch, the Chronometre, a limited edition of only 60 pieces, sold out almost instantly after it made it to a few watch media circuits. Good news is that, if you missed out on the Chronometre, he does have another planned project for this year. He doesn't even have a website, just a Facebook.

















Prokop & Brož - A small Czech outfit with unique designs. Their debut watch was the František Kupka 1912, which is also Unitas-based.

















Antoine Martin - Co-founded by watchmaker Martin Braun, their debut was the Antoine Martin Perpetual Calendar, with a fascinating manually wound movement, featuring an integrated perpetual calendar, a big date display, and a 6-day power reserve. They've gone a bit quiet, but they might be rebooting soon.


















humanalien said:


> Pierre and Pegignet, and BLU, Leroy, and Minver Villeret are news to me.
> 
> Pegignet looks like a really affordable-ranged brand. I didn't expect quartz watches to open up.
> +oh wait, I checked out their manufacture and it indeed turned out to be interesting. good prices too.
> ...


Be careful with Pequignet: They recently filed for bankruptcy, and they need to find a new buyer by next month in order to save the company. This isn't the first time they've ran across financial difficulties. I believe they were saved before in the midst of a near bankruptcy. Their value lies in their in-house Calibre Royale movement, which is found in their Manufacture Collection.


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## asadtiger (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Two to consider: ateliers de Monaco and maitres du temps..i absolutely adore the later watches...also may be consider harry winston opus series . Best of luck hunting.

Sent from my SM-N920S using Tapatalk


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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

^
HW is Swatch owned, as of a few years ago.


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



asadtiger said:


> Two to consider: ateliers de Monaco and maitres du temps..i absolutely adore the later watches...also may be consider harry winston opus series . Best of luck hunting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920S using Tapatalk





PJ S said:


> ^
> HW is Swatch owned, as of a few years ago.


And Ateliers deMonaco is owned by Citizen as is the rest of the Frédérique Constant Group, including Frédérique Constant and Alpina.


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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

^
Forgot about AdM being another creation of FC’s – like Angelus is for La Joux Perret.


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## ar7iste (Sep 24, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Maybe you can help me, I'm trying to figure out the name of a brand I saw a long time ago.

It's an independant (very very small) brand, that makes very thick nautic-inspired watches (some cases are 17mm if I recall). The watches look like a eighteenth century sextant pretty much. The collection has various models, the dials have a lot of volume, and there are some simple complications. (I don't know why, but I remember one of the watch looking like a 17th century compass).

I remember hearing from this brand on a forum of some sort (or reddit maybe). A guy was having his watch repaired at a local watchmaker in the US who apparently was the only US retailer for this brand. A city in the North east of the US (I'm not from the USA so I'm not sure). They make really unique pieces, not necessarily super high-end, but definitely unique (in the 5k-15k range).

Anyone knows what I'm talking about or did I just dream it?


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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

^
Junvenia Sextant III or Larcum Kendall K7?


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



WTSP said:


> I'm partial to Bernhard Lederer (BLU), having recently acquired one. Most of the watches under the BLU branding are based on the 2892, but these are usually totally disguised under the custom BLU rotor system which gives a unique feel to the pieces. They come in 39 and 42 mm cases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That piece is beautiful! Stunning blue dial. However yes, it seems like the brand is no longer in business. Was so sad when i couldn't find their website after few searches. Will check out those names you mentioned, thanks!


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Cobia said:


> View attachment 10583786


LOL I see what you did there! XD


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Vig2000 said:


> I'm in the same boat as you. I really do appreciate smaller brands that at least encroach on the high end territory. That being said, here is my list that has not been mentioned yet:
> 
> 
> Louis Moinet - A lot of their tourbillons do not appeal to me, but I used to own the Mecanograph, and I really liked that watch:
> ...


Ay, feels nice to meet an ally here.

Louis Monet I knew, and just like you I'm not fan of most of their designs (and price ranges) except select few. And one of them is, you named it! Mecanograph! The watch kinda feels big + other brands appeal more to me though. It was a brand I was interested in long time ago.

Pascal Coyon, I checked him out and he is definitely awesome. His finishing was like, woah! I even followed him in facebook. Sad that he does not have his website yet! I'm going to stay tuned for his next upcoming project surely, it's just with just a facebook follow I might miss it....

Prokop & Broz looks good too but price range seems a bit high for their movement appearnce. Not that appealing to me yet.

Antoine Martin I knew, too far from my taste unfortunately.

And that's a very valuable information about Pequignet, thank you very much! Didn't expect or know about bankcrupcy issue. If that is true I guess I will have to wait out few months to see how the company overcomes its problems. Calibre Royal do look cool though, especially if it's price range is under $10,000.

Thank you tons!


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



asadtiger said:


> Two to consider: ateliers de Monaco and maitres du temps..i absolutely adore the later watches...also may be consider harry winston opus series . Best of luck hunting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920S using Tapatalk


Opus series is too far from my taste, since I am a sucker for classic time only simple, clean dial watches with smaller case sizes. Maitre du Temps are awesome, collaborations between AHCIs but other than their chapter 3 I don't think they are that appealing. Considered one last year and decided to move on! Thanks for the suggestions!


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## ar7iste (Sep 24, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



PJ S said:


> ^
> Junvenia Sextant III or Larcum Kendall K7?


It was Larcum Kendall. Thank you, I had forgotten about this brand. Affordable and cool looking, even if very large and thick


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Vig2000 said:


> And Ateliers deMonaco is owned by Citizen as is the rest of the Frédérique Constant Group, including Frédérique Constant and Alpina.





PJ S said:


> ^
> Forgot about AdM being another creation of FC's - like Angelus is for La Joux Perret.


La Joux Perret, which revived Angelus, is also owned by Citizen.



humanalien said:


> These are the brands I already know and like:
> 
> Thomas Ninchritz (and all other brands on WB like Benzinger, Jaeger Benzinger, Kudoke, Dornblueth & Sohn, etc) -> these cost less than $10,000, but cost-to-quality wise I think they are superb and are worth collecting.
> 
> ...


Arnold & Son is owned by Citizen, too. And Jaquet Droz is owned by Swatch.

Category:Citizen Holdings - Watch Wiki: The Best Watches and Watch Brands
Swiss made watch â€" Brand and companies â€" The Swatch Group - Swatch Group


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Vig2000 said:


> La Joux Perret, which revived Angelus, is also owned by Citizen.
> 
> Arnold & Son is also owned by Citizen. And Jaquet Droz is owned by Swatch.
> 
> ...


Indeed, Arnold & Son is owned by Citizen. It was quite a shock to me when I found it out last year. It makes things more interesting though imo. What is Angelus by the way?


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



humanalien said:


> Indeed, Arnold & Son is owned by Citizen. It was quite a shock to me when I found it out last year. It makes things more interesting though imo. What is Angelus by the way?


Yeah, it seems like more and more independents are being bought out these days.

You can find out more about Angelus here.


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## Uhrmensch (Apr 28, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Check out Antti Ronkko as well - Sarpaneva is an obvious comparison, not only because they're both from the land of the midnight sun, but also because of the style & customized Soprods etc. Haven't seen one in the metal myself yet, suspect few people aside from Antti + 30-40 others actually have, but they look nicely 'finnished' (sorry, couldn't resist). :-d Best of luck


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

There's also Hajime Asaoka, an AHCI member, if you want something that's a little different and bold in design.


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## Solomente (Feb 24, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Adding PITA Barcelona, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned Akrivia yet


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



ar7iste said:


> Maybe you can help me, I'm trying to figure out the name of a brand I saw a long time ago.
> 
> It's an independant (very very small) brand, that makes very thick nautic-inspired watches (some cases are 17mm if I recall). The watches look like a eighteenth century sextant pretty much. The collection has various models, the dials have a lot of volume, and there are some simple complications. (I don't know why, but I remember one of the watch looking like a 17th century compass).
> 
> ...


Michel Jordi?


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Uhrmensch said:


> ...., but they look nicely 'finnished' (sorry, couldn't resist). :-d Best of luck


dear god, that made me laugh so hard hahaha kudos!


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Reviving this thread. There's also ArtyA. Their designs are way too out there for me, but they do meet your criteria of being a micro independent high end brand.



> ArtyA was created in 2010.The company is 100% independent, with a very reactive team of less than 10 people.
> It is based in Geneva. ArtyA has its own manufacture. As a matter of fact, it's one of the very limited numbers of independent watch manufacture to be still based in Geneva downtown.
> 
> On a mechanical standpoint, ArtyA knows no limits, from three-hands models to perpetual calendars. One last thing to know about ArtyA is the constant evolution of the brand and its models - collection stays, but watches are all limited - even unique for many of them - and Yvan Arpa makes them live and progress every month, every quarter, every year. ArtyA unveils key new creations during Baselworld, but the manufacture's brainstorming never stops.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Let's not forget Philippe Dufour, Kari Voutilainen, Speake Marin ,De Bethune, François Paul Journe, Daniel Roth and Parmigiani Fleurier


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## ThomG (Aug 11, 2014)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



Vig2000 said:


> Reviving this thread. There's also ArtyA. Their designs are way too out there for me, but they do meet your criteria of being a micro independent high end brand.


While attending the World Watch Market Consumer Show 2016 in Las Vegas, my wife and I were introduced to Yvan Arpa by Ehren Bragg, President of Envoy Trading LLC. I purchased this watch during this show in June of 2016. The picture below is the ArtyA Retrograde (1 of 1).









*

ArtyA 3 Gongs Minute Repeater, Regulator & Double Axis Tourbillon 1/1*


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## handsoverfist (Feb 9, 2017)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Only one mention to Akrivia... Young, ex Patek high-complication watchmaker, small Geneva outfit, amazing watchmaking. I love them.
AkriviA AK-06 Watch Hands-On | aBlogtoWatch

d.m.h. watch is also very unique and very low production. home - d.m.h. - dingemans mechanische horloges | d.m.h. - dingemans mechanische horloges

Also, this is a great thread. I've seen and learned a lot. Laurent Ferrier not mentioned but probably too 'mainstream' even though production numbers are so low.


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## ThomG (Aug 11, 2014)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



handsoverfist said:


> Only one mention to Akrivia... Young, ex Patek high-complication watchmaker, small Geneva outfit, amazing watchmaking. I love them.
> AkriviA AK-06 Watch Hands-On | aBlogtoWatch
> 
> d.m.h. watch is also very unique and very low production. home - d.m.h. - dingemans mechanische horloges | d.m.h. - dingemans mechanische horloges
> ...


That is indeed a lovely watch, I wish them great success.


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## ThomG (Aug 11, 2014)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Here's a wrist shot... (Cell phone photo)


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## jsohal (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Man, this was a terrible thread to stumble upon. Now there's so many watches I want to add to my collection!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



ThomG said:


> Here's a wrist shot... (Cell phone photo)
> 
> View attachment 12108178
> 
> ...


I get the feeling that Bernhard Lederer created that watch for Artya. Do you have a shot of the case back?


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## ThomG (Aug 11, 2014)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Sure, I'll post a shot of the back tomorrow, the case back says ArtyA Unique 1 of 1 if I recall correctly. I'll get the watch out of the bank tomorrow. When I bought the watch directly from Yvan Arpa, he said he created the watch for someone who was going to make a series from the watch, but declined to do so. I also have a signed document stating that the watch was designed and manufactured by ArtyA watch company, and that it was unique 1 of 1. So maybe the opposite has happened. I agree that the basics of the two watches are identical. It will be interesting to see where this leads. I respect both artisans but this is now a public issue, as to who made what for who. This could cast a shadow over the legitimacy of what is unique and what is not in the realm of independent watchmaking. Thanks for posting this information. I'm certainly going to get to the bottom of this.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

*Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*



ThomG said:


> Sure, I'll post a shot of the back tomorrow, the case back says ArtyA Unique 1 of 1 if I recall correctly. I'll get the watch out of the bank tomorrow. When I bought the watch directly from Yvan Arpa, he said he created the watch for someone who was going to make a series from the watch, but declined to do so. I also have a signed document stating that the watch was designed and manufactured by ArtyA watch company, and that it was unique 1 of 1. So maybe the opposite has happened. I agree that the basics of the two watches are identical. It will be interesting to see where this leads. I respect both artisans but this is now a public issue, as to who made what for who. This could cast a shadow over the legitimacy of what is unique and what is not in the realm of independent watchmaking. Thanks for posting this information. I'm certainly going to get to the bottom of this.


Firstly your Artya is a very nice watch, featuring a beautiful dial and interesting complications regardless of who the original designer may have been. It's true that the provenance of watch movements and designs is often unclear. To my knowledge, Bernhard Lederer released a similar retrograde design back in 2007 in his Quartett and Quintett models.

http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf.forumpost/fi-16/ti-383436/pi-2309266/

This evolved in 2008 to produce the following design, for which the face and complications are virtually identical to your Artya.










http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf.forumpost/fi-16/ti-422116/pi-2536596/

In 2012, Lederer created KCK, a company focused on subcontracting of high end watch components which was based on the manufacturing apparatus created for his BLU (Bernhard Lederer Universe) brand.

http://www.msm.ch/sous-traitance-ho...velle-stratégie-de-bernhard-lederer-a-378937/

In 2014 he appears to have rebranded or otherwise transitioned this company to MHM, which again is dedicated to high end outsourcing.

http://www.msm.ch/nouvelle-source-de-calibres-haut-de-gamme-a-464985/

If I were to bet on it, I would say that Artya has sourced the movement and dial for your watch from one of these entities.

I asked to see the case back on the Artya because Lederer often used a special winding rotor mechanism which I believe is of his own creation. Here's an example that he made for the Goldpfeil Seven Masters series.










Most of his non tourbillon watches are based on the ETA 2892 and feature a custom complication on the top to tell the time, as well as this custom rotor. Here's an example on a BLU.










It's actually a plate with a rail on the outside to which is attached an inner ring with a logo weight. Of course Artya may have just used a regular 2892 rotor as well.

Let us know what your enquiries reveal!


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## ThomG (Aug 11, 2014)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Yes I agree that the dial and movement were outsourced. This watch however, is unique to ArtyA. It's a very attractive watch, and contains a movement obviously created by master watchmaker Bernhard Lederer, adding to the appeal of the piece IMO.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

I can understand your disappointment if there was some misrepresentation in the sales pitch. However, it's still quite likely that your watch is a unique piece. Basically it appears to me that it is a Bernhard Lederer movement adapted to one of ArtyA's Race cases (which is used for many different styles of watches).



















ArtyA specializes in wild designs and materials. I could be wrong, but I believe their movements are typically outsourced. Their Guer-Man coprolite watch is based on an ETA 2824.










The terms that they use for their A17 caliber is "in house modified".










To me it looks like a modified ETA 2671.










I'm guessing that their tourbillons and other highly complicated pieces are sourced from small boutique specialists that produce for other brands such as Romain Jerome.

In the end ArtyA produces small runs of watches which are unique hand finished art pieces. Yours is likely to be the only ArtyA-Lederer collaboration, which is noteworthy in and of itself.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

I doubt any small company could design and manufacture its own movement.
Either collaboration or taking a standard eBauch and heavy modifying it.

Retrograde, perpetual calendars are tough complications and not easily designed and made by small manufacturers unless the watch is hand made.

None of those movements look hand made or indeed well made by high quality CNC machines. Even the case engraving on ARTYA looks terrible.

The movement finish looks Asian

Just my thought


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## jsohal (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

My 2c is that the finish looks white...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MisterV (Nov 30, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Since this is the best (and only?) thread about such manufacturers, I'm posting a couple more for completeness.

Struthers London







A British couple who seem to offer tailor-made watches, and their own 
Prices starting somewhere around 15-20k$?

Studio 3 Hands







Beautiful design, I'd say inspired by Akrivia.
One guy who says he's only learning the craft, and does a lot by hand, producing some pretty impressive stuff.
Price around 3k$.

Aleksandr Nesterenko







A Russian one-man studio. Produces everything by himself as well, any kind of custom case etc. Is regularly in contact with Konstantin Chaykin, the AHCI member. Inspirations for design draw from a lot of sources, I would almost call them architectural.
Prices starting from around 3k$.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Interesting finds!

I believe that Cyclos is still in business.


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## MisterV (Nov 30, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

There's also Itay Noy, whom I saw in Basel this year. The designs are not my thing, but hey, at least it's original. Can't speak for finish quality, prices somewhere around 4k$?
ABTW article

And on the very high end, Atelier de Chronometrie from Spain wasn't mentioned I believe? Amazing pieces. Sell purely on finish quality which is supposed to be the best of the best, something like 50k$ apiece. Luscious eyegasms of perfection below.


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## MisterV (Nov 30, 2016)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Some others I might have forgotten to mention:

Torsti Laine: https://www.torstilaine.com/
Makes very nice classical dress watches with beautiful movement decoration, on the basis of a normal Unitas 6497 with some standard cases I believe. Also has a modern chrono model. Has customisation options with different dials and hands.

















EHF Watches: EHF Horlogère
I've been in contact by email. The main watchmaker's custom orders start at 50k CHF. His younger brother, who apparently trains under him, makes stuff for a more reasonable budget of around 5k CHF (which is what I was looking for). No pictures, since it seems they are fully custom.

The last one is rather more known in the last months, but I'm putting it here for completeness: Maison Celadon

There are other 'high-end' brands from China I think, but I unfortunately know too little. There's a lot of work that goes into these, so even if the finish isn't quite Voutilainen-level, I think they deserve a place on the list? And you know what, in a few years they'll probably get there.


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Masahiro Kikuno. He works alone and makes everything by himself, every gear, every screw, everything. Uses mostly traditional tools. He is a member of the AHCI. He has some amazing complications such as the Orizuru bird and temporal hour watch.

https://www.masahirokikuno.jp/


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## Rick11743 (Dec 26, 2018)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

My Favs:

Weiss
Brellum


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## Rick11743 (Dec 26, 2018)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

My Favs:

Weiss
Brellum


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## jumperboy (Oct 13, 2018)

*Re: Looking for Micro Independent High End Watchmaking Brand & Watchmakers (+ I'll share you some!)*

Very cool posts!

My fav is my Urban Jürgensen (RG Ltd. x/20). I really go for Ancito Pita, and have a piece on order. Kikuno is wonderfully psycho and amazing. I've had several Calabrese. Roland Murphy is great to work with.

Go for the AHCI, and small powerhouses. Voultilainen worked for UJ for many years, and still does some work for them.


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## MisterV (Nov 30, 2016)

Since this hasn't been updated for a while:

Torsten Laine has changed his website and is making nice, wearable, classic watches with a lot of bang for your buck:

Laine Watches - Gelidus 2


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## MisterV (Nov 30, 2016)

@Age_of_Surfaces drew my attention to one I haven't seen at all before: Wessex (British Watchmaker | Wessex Watches | Chippenham, UK)



















That is absolutely lovely. I wish they'd been around four-five years ago...


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## Age_of_Surfaces (Jun 19, 2020)

MisterV said:


> @Age_of_Surfaces drew my attention to one I haven't seen at all before: Wessex (British Watchmaker | Wessex Watches | Chippenham, UK)
> 
> View attachment 15562526
> 
> ...


I'll be taking delivery of my Wessex this week (it's scheduled to arrive tomorrow). It took three months to make and 26 revisions to get it how I wanted. Jamie was excellent throughout.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

MisterV said:


> @Age_of_Surfaces drew my attention to one I haven't seen at all before: Wessex (British Watchmaker | Wessex Watches | Chippenham, UK)
> 
> View attachment 15562526
> 
> ...


 Just have to come out with an 'Alfred the Great' model.


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## MisterV (Nov 30, 2016)

Age_of_Surfaces said:


> I'll be taking delivery of my Wessex this week (it's scheduled to arrive tomorrow). It took three months to make and 26 revisions to get it how I wanted. Jamie was excellent throughout.


Oh excellent, do post a review! I'll be looking forward to it. 26 revisions is a lot compared to what my project went through, the watchmaker sounds great.


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## Age_of_Surfaces (Jun 19, 2020)

MisterV said:


> Oh excellent, do post a review! I'll be looking forward to it. 26 revisions is a lot compared to what my project went through, the watchmaker sounds great.


Jamie was very patient and obliging. It turns out we have a personal connection, and one that featured in the design of the watch. A very authentic guy.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

The Pedrozo & Piriz PP1 can be had for a mere CHF 150,500. I can't pretend to be in the market for one, but the overall design is really interesting IMHO.


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

WTSP said:


> The Pedrozo & Piriz PP1 can be had for a mere CHF 150,500. I can't pretend to be in the market for one, but the overall design is really interesting IMHO.


The dual tourbillons are really cool... but the reverse side is pretty disappointing to me... I looked it up expecting something much more spectacular... but I am a little more into movement views than most maybe.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

True, I guess it could show more, but I find the limited opening tasteful. Also the dual escapements are probably the most interesting aspects of the movement. I guess the standard these days has been to make the rear window more and more revealing. I really like being able to see the full movement as in the examples below, but I'd understand if a few brands want to buck the trend.


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

WTSP said:


> True, I guess it could show more, but I find the limited opening tasteful. Also the dual escapements are probably the most interesting aspects of the movement. I guess the standard these days has been to make the rear window more and more revealing. I really like being able to see the full movement as in the examples below, but I'd understand if a few brands want to buck the trend.


Those are great! But I also think it isn't just that they hid the movement on the P&P (though that's where my focus was)... it's also that the caseback looks like a lot less attention was paid than the rest of the watch too.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

I guess that's true. Perhaps the fact that it's made of titanium led them to take that approach. It is a fairly simple watch design-wise, aside from the dual tourbillons. If Eterna released a Madison Double Tourbillon I think it might look like this PP1.


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