# Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2



## SennaGTS

(This is the continuation from an earlier thread : https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-894887.html
Please post here your questions to the forum community, when you suspect something wrong on a watch or just want to be sure. You will surely receive a quick answer from the many experts in different technical fields and different brands.

Do not post in the "Franken of the week" thread that is a showcase reserved for undisputably frankened timepieces.
- the moderator)

I know Slava made quite a few versions of this style watch. But what do you think of this one?


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## XsiOn

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi Guys,

I decided to go for one of the "big" ones 

What do you think, is this watch legit?

Okean Ocean Vintage USSR Russian Soviet watch Poljot Chronograph 3133 | eBay

BR,
Peter


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## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



XsiOn said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I decided to go for one of the "big" ones
> 
> What do you think, is this watch legit?
> 
> Okean Ocean Vintage USSR Russian Soviet watch Poljot Chronograph 3133 | eBay
> 
> BR,
> Peter


I don't see anything to complain about with that one, personally, except the price. "Original bracelet" is possible but not certain.


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## XsiOn

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> I don't see anything to complain about with that one, personally, except the price. "Original bracelet" is possible but not certain.


schnurrp, what do you think realistic price for Okean would be. I really want this watch but I would not like to overpay it drastically


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## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



XsiOn said:


> schnurrp, what do you think realistic price for Okean would be. I really want this watch but I would not like to overpay it drastically


I didn't mean to imply that the price was too high for this watch, just too high for me. I would definitely make an offer for it at a lower price, and enter into a negotiation. You would not be "drastically" overpaying at that price. That seller has sold a couple of shturmanskie 3133s that were re-lumed. I would not like to buy a relumed Okeah for that price. You may want to ask about that.


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## dmnc

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Does anybody have any insight into this model, and any opinions on this example in particular please?

I really like the style and have been looking out for one for a while. This example seems to be in very good condition and have the right case, crown and hands (the arrow second hand is often replaced) but the lume is a bit all over the place.

If anyone has ever seen one of these in a catalogue that would also be a great help. I've failed to find it myself.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chien-andalou

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

still on a quest for a Vostok 'green sea' (?) dial
watch A *all-about-watch* 
watch B *stasia.ua*

hour hand: is definitely flat in watch B (minute hand seems to have a ridge on some pictures, seems flat on most) 
second hand: yeah...

watch B also has a domed crown

cheers
Peter


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## Straight_time

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



dmnc said:


> Does anybody have any insight into this model, and any opinions on this example in particular please?
> 
> I really like the style and have been looking out for one for a while. This example seems to be in very good condition and have the right case, crown and hands (the arrow second hand is often replaced) but the lume is a bit all over the place.
> 
> If anyone has ever seen one of these in a catalogue that would also be a great help. I've failed to find it myself.


The Cyrillic version can be seen here. 
Hard to tell if this example had been relumed, but should that be the case it doesn't look bad anyway IMHO.


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## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



dmnc said:


> Does anybody have any insight into this model, and any opinions on this example in particular please?
> 
> I really like the style and have been looking out for one for a while. This example seems to be in very good condition and have the right case, crown and hands (the arrow second hand is often replaced) but the lume is a bit all over the place.
> 
> If anyone has ever seen one of these in a catalogue that would also be a great help. I've failed to find it myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To me the lume appears to be within expectations for a factory job. You will know immediately upon receipt when it is put in the dark. You could always ask, too. The difference in color between the hands and the dial is not out of the ordinary for one that has received some use since the hand lume is weathering from the front and the back and will discolor differently from the dial. Another inauthentic part that is found on these occasionally is a conventional domed replacement crystal. Authentic crystal is flat with vertical sides which cannot be confirmed from the pictures you have posted. Again, ask the seller. I would consider buying at the right price even if the crystal has been replaced since authentic crystals are not that hard to find.


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## dmnc

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> To me the lume appears to be within expectations for a factory job. You will know immediately upon receipt when it is put in the dark. You could always ask, too. The difference in color between the hands and the dial is not out of the ordinary for one that has received some use since the hand lume is weathering from the front and the back and will discolor differently from the dial. Another inauthentic part that is found on these occasionally is a conventional domed replacement crystal. Authentic crystal is flat with vertical sides which cannot be confirmed from the pictures you have posted. Again, ask the seller. I would consider buying at the right price even if the crystal has been replaced since authentic crystals are not that hard to find.


It does indeed have a dome. So many of them do that I thought nothing of it.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dimy

SennaGTS said:


> I know Slava made quite a few versions of this style watch. But what do you think of this one?


legit.


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## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



dmnc said:


> It does indeed have a dome. So many of them do that I thought nothing of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't have one of those in my collection right now but that case and crystal should be the same as the big zero:


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## sideways2

A Vostok...and a Sekonda...

The Vostok is tempting me for some reason...

The Sekonda I already bought...I just couldn't help myself...it's pretty LOL!!!


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## jamesnorrisuk

Hi All - new to the world of vintage Russian watches, but I love it already... dangerous!

Please could you let me know what you think of these two?


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## bpmurray

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Hi All - new to the world of vintage Russian watches, but I love it already... dangerous!
> 
> Please could you let me know what you think of these two?


The komandirskie has an incorrect case, incorrect seconds hand, and incorrect case back. I'd avoid it. There are quite a lot if this same dialed model available on eBay/Etsy. It should look like this, in either gold plated or chromed brass:

Edit - actually, everything looks wrong. The hands should be gold, not silver, and the numbers on the dial don't look to be the correct style either. Good luck!


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## schnurrp

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Hi All - new to the world of vintage Russian watches, but I love it already... dangerous!
> 
> Please could you let me know what you think of these two?
> 
> View attachment 12442319
> 
> View attachment 12442321
> 
> View attachment 12442323
> 
> View attachment 12442325
> 
> View attachment 12442327
> 
> View attachment 12442329


First one looks fine and is a nice example. Second one is a common re-dial and everything else mentioned by bpmurray. Every one of those printed komandirskie dials has the little upturn at the base end of the "hand painted" "2" in "12". Each of those dials if authentic should be unique.


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## Dimy

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Hi All - new to the world of vintage Russian watches, but I love it already... dangerous!
> 
> Please could you let me know what you think of these two?


 I have exactly the same NOS Raketa 24. Legit.
Komandirskie look right to me as well, but I am not an expert so dont quote me on.


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## Neruda

jamesnorrisuk - the komandirskie also has a new dial. Note that the bottom of the number 2 at 12 o'clock has a raised end, compared to bpmurray's correct example which doesn't. Note also that the lume applied to the indices is very crisp, original lume was applied more erratically.

The other Vostok also has a wrong caseback - it's an export model (English lettering on dial and movement) and the case should normally have English lettering. It is also for the wrong movment, 2214 when the movement is a 2209.

Another tip: In general, look very carefully at any watch coming out of the Ukraine. Certainly not all are frankens or fakes but unfortunately many are!


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## jamesnorrisuk

Thanks all for the heads up, thought the komandirskie looked a little mish-mashed... the Raketa on the other hand may find its way into my watch box/wrist!

Out of interest, if Ukraine is risky business, where do you guys tend to look for your collections?


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## Straight_time

sideways2 said:


> A Vostok...and a Sekonda...
> 
> The Vostok is tempting me for some reason...
> 
> View attachment 12442285


I would pass on it.
If I am not mistaken it's model 2209/401219, listed on page 36 of the 1977 Watch Catalog/Vol.1 with the Sekonda brand. 
It shouldn't have gilded hands but nickel plated ones, hours and minutes with lume and seconds of a different shape.


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## Bostok

Is this watch legit or a franken? Thank you in advance


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## schnurrp

sideways2 said:


> A Vostok...and a Sekonda...
> 
> The Vostok is tempting me for some reason...
> 
> The Sekonda I already bought...I just couldn't help myself...it's pretty LOL!!!
> 
> View attachment 12442285
> 
> 
> View attachment 12442287
> 
> 
> View attachment 12442289
> 
> 
> View attachment 12442291
> 
> 
> View attachment 12442293


Vostok not authentic, wrong hands. They should be silver lumed to work with the lume dots at the numbers. Even that hand set has a broken second hand. I'd pass.

Sekonda is probably okay but I couldn't find it in a catalog. Probably missing its lume or paint on the hands. True "skeleton" hands are rarely seen on soviet watches.


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## sideways2

Thanks for the info!!

The Sekonda...I found these in the Slava 1979 catalog...very close...enough that it was worth a shot LOL!!


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## mroatman

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Out of interest, if Ukraine is risky business, where do you guys tend to look for your collections?


Ukraine, mostly.


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## bpmurray

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Thanks all for the heads up, thought the komandirskie looked a little mish-mashed... the Raketa on the other hand may find its way into my watch box/wrist!
> 
> Out of interest, if Ukraine is risky business, where do you guys tend to look for your collections?


Buying from anywhere has a degree of risk in this hobby. Maybe Ukrainian-originating watches have a higher degree of risk, but there are good sellers and bad sellers from everywhere (and also, well-meaning sellers who think they are selling 100% legit watches but don't have the time to verify). I've bought quite a few items from Ukraine that I am extremely happy with.

You did the right thing asking here - just keep that up until you cultivate some trusted sellers and build up your own knowledge. Oh, and keep using common sense. If something looks too good to be true, it probably is.


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## schnurrp

sideways2 said:


> Thanks for the info!!
> 
> The Sekonda...I found these in the Slava 1979 catalog...very close...enough that it was worth a shot LOL!!
> 
> The dial on the upper left one is close but the hands are more like the one on the upper right and I could not find that simple round case anywhere. It's possible it's authentic and I hope it keeps good time and you enjoy it, but for _me_, with so many choices out there, why choose something doubtful?


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## mroatman

sideways2 said:


> The Sekonda I already bought...I just couldn't help myself...it's pretty LOL!!!





schnurrp said:


> The dial on the upper left one is close but the hands are more like the one on the upper right and I could not find that simple round case anywhere. It's possible it's authentic and I hope it keeps good time and you enjoy it, but for _me_, with so many choices out there, why choose something doubtful?


The case, along with the CCCP stamp on the rear, is commonly associated with those Italian export Slavas. The case looks pristine, as does the crown, and the sales tag appears to still be attached. So my only question is -- why the damaged dial? That part doesn't seem to fit.


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## Bostok

Bostok said:


> Is this watch legit or a franken? Thank you in advance


As none bothered to indulge me with an opinion concerning that humble mini Komanirskie, I finally bought it as my first Cadet. 
They always seemd rather intriguing in the pictures, I shall see in real life. 
As for the authenticity, I suppose it didn't qualified for the exigency of a such qualified audience of this topic but at less then 10 euros delivered, I guess I don't have much to loose.


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## mroatman

Bostok said:


> As for the authenticity, I suppose it didn't qualified for the exigency of a such qualified audience of this topic but at less then 10 euros delivered, I guess I don't have much to loose.


Yeah, seems like it's worth the risk. I know nothing about this watch.


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## schnurrp

Bostok said:


> As none bothered to indulge me with an opinion concerning that humble mini Komanirskie, I finally bought it as my first Cadet.
> They always seemd rather intriguing in the pictures, I shall see in real life.
> As for the authenticity, I suppose it didn't qualified for the exigency of a such qualified audience of this topic but at less then 10 euros delivered, I guess I don't have much to loose.


Sorry, comrade, these are so varied and hardly ever found in catalogs that it's hard to spot one with problems. Yours, however, is in a '93 catalog with a slightly different bezel: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipN2gzuY73fTJQs_hQY3FVM9-TLD16Lj2StbsuA5. So if it runs you did pretty good.


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## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> The case, along with the CCCP stamp on the rear, is commonly associated with those Italian export Slavas. The case looks pristine, as does the crown, and the sales tag appears to still be attached. So my only question is -- why the damaged dial? That part doesn't seem to fit.


Good pickup on the case, comrade, but I can't really see Sekonda using a special case made for the Italian market for their UK products. I also questioned the damaged dial in the pristine case.


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## Bostok

schnurrp said:


> Sorry, comrade, these are so varied and hardly ever found in catalogs that it's hard to spot one with problems. Yours, however, is in a '93 catalog with a slightly different bezel: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipN2gzuY73fTJQs_hQY3FVM9-TLD16Lj2StbsuA5. So if it runs you did pretty good.


Thank you for the kind answer. There seems effectively to be an enormous variety, but the watch next to this one in the catalogue is sporting exactly the same bezel and half of the models have the other second hand. So kind of reassuring, especially for the price , thanks a lot!


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## schnurrp

Bostok said:


> Thank you for the kind answer. There seems effectively to be an enormous variety, but the watch next to this one in the catalogue is sporting exactly the same bezel and half of the models have the other second hand. So kind of reassuring, especially for the price , thanks a lot!


Also, despite being pictured in the catalog that bezel with the small dots is almost never seen on an actual watch.


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## NuttySlack

Could some knowledgable comrade cast their eye upon this offering on fleabay, as I suspect there is something wrong with it: A Poljot 17 jewel mens watch | eBay


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## sideways2

schnurrp said:


> Good pickup on the case, comrade, but I can't really see Sekonda using a special case made for the Italian market for their UK products. I also questioned the damaged dial in the pristine case.


You and Dashiell are probably quite correct...I just bought it for fun lol!! I felt it needed a home


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## Bostok

schnurrp said:


> Also, despite being pictured in the catalog that bezel with the small dots is almost never seen on an actual watch.


Even the specific dial obviously has two variants with the "made in USSR" position on the intern respectively extern (probably more recent and presented in the 1993 catalogue) cironference. This is a pristine similar watch (photo courtesy of *lucky watch*, in the mini komandirskie topic), but of course, there is a slight difference with the top triangle on the bezel being red (another variant found in the catalogue) rather then black. Soviet watches are really, really fun


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## Neruda

Appears to be missing a bezel, compare it to an example from polmax3133.com







Don't know why there are also photos of an Oris watch in the ebay listing.


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## Bostok

NuttySlack said:


> Could some knowledgable comrade cast their eye upon this offering on fleabay, as I suspect there is something wrong with it: A Poljot 17 jewel mens watch | eBay


ORIS case back?


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## sideways2

Two different movement pictures as well!!


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## schnurrp

NuttySlack said:


> Could some knowledgable comrade cast their eye upon this offering on fleabay, as I suspect there is something wrong with it: A Poljot 17 jewel mens watch | eBay


Not any soviet movement I'm familiar with. Perhaps it is an Oris watch with a Poljot dial substituted.


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## Neruda

I think the last photo shows the Poljot movement. But, either the Oris caseback and movement photos are a simple error, or something very funny is going on!


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## NuttySlack

I've just had another look and one movement has Oris watch company engraved upon it and the other seems to be an FHF-ST or clone. Maybe he got his sales pics mixed up?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


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## Eaglebone

I find myself hankering after a big zero. Does this one look right?


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## XsiOn

Hi,
I am s
till after my Sturmanskie 3133 watch. What is your opinion on this one:


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## sideways2

Eaglebone said:


> I find myself hankering after a big zero. Does this one look right?
> View attachment 12445059
> View attachment 12445061
> View attachment 12445063


Here's a few threads to help you out but I would say you're looking ok:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/show-us-your-raketa-big-zero-884713.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-big-zero-black-dial-suspicious-1060189.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/first-russian-vintage-buy-need-advice-raketa-big-zero-2709874.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/i-think-i-got-fake-raketa-big-zero-2858970.html


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## MattBrace

XsiOn said:


> Hi,
> I am s
> till after my Sturmanskie 3133 watch. What is your opinion on this one:


XsiOn, your watch dates from around 1981-82' military issue Sturmanskie, it appears that the dial and hands have been re-lumed at some point, the minute counter hand and chrono sweep hand (red hands) are modern non Poljot replacements. That aside the movement is in good original condition.


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## kev80e

I assume this isn't an original dial ,but just wanted to check the experts.


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## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> I assume this isn't an original dial ,but just wanted to check the experts.
> View attachment 12445691


I don't see anything to complain about, Kev. There were some NOS dials available some months ago that were authentic. The easiest way to weed out the fakes is to look at the North Pole. On the fakes the longitudinal lines are discontinuous.

Fake:








I'm not sure about that second hand, though. The shaft looks thick and the "sputnik" looks small. Also I believe the authentic black dial, chrome body should have chrome hands, pretty rare, only Poljot that uses the chrome hands like these.

Someone had a chrome body, bought the NOS black dial and then was stymied and had to use a set of gold hands. Just a possibility, of course.


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## GoodNamesWereTaken

kev80e said:


> I assume this isn't an original dial ,but just wanted to check the experts.
> View attachment 12445691


That's completely legit. However the hands were taken from a white-dialed variant. The black-dialed ones only had grey metal hands. May I ask how much does the seller want for it?


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## chien-andalou

Hello all, my first Baker and something is off.
In the catalog and forum images I found: 
-never a Baker with black hands on blue background
-never black hands combined with white marks on the dial

Sold as 100% original but for me the hands come from another baker with a different color scheme.

Any opinions?

Cheers 
Peter


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## mroatman

kev80e said:


> I assume this isn't an original dial ,but just wanted to check the experts.


I agree with Paul, dial/case/crown look good, but the hands are suspicious. The catalog specifies nickel-plated hands for the black dial.


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## mroatman

Eaglebone said:


> I find myself hankering after a big zero. Does this one look right?


Yes.


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## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> Hello all, my first Baker and something is off.
> In the catalog and forum images I found:
> -never a Baker with black hands on blue background
> -never black hands combined with white marks on the dial
> Sold as 100% original but for me the hands come from another baker with a different color scheme.
> Any opinions?
> Cheers
> Peter


Hi Peter, I think you're right. I believe the hands should have white paint, like so:









Almost always with Soviet watches, the hands and the indices should correspond. I'd wait for another.

Welcome to the forum ?


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## kev80e

Sorry post was wrong


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## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> I don't see anything to complain about, Kev. There were some NOS dials available some months ago that were authentic. The easiest way to weed out the fakes is to look at the North Pole. On the fakes the longitudinal lines are discontinuous.
> 
> Fake:
> View attachment 12446249
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about that second hand, though. The shaft looks thick and the "sputnik" looks small. Also I believe the authentic black dial, chrome body should have chrome hands, pretty rare, only Poljot that uses the chrome hands like these.
> 
> Someone had a chrome body, bought the NOS black dial and then was stymied and had to use a set of gold hands. Just a possibility, of course.


Thanks Paul. I was kinda hoping it wasn't right, I'm a bit tempted and was saving my money for something else..



GoodNamesWereTaken said:


> That's completely legit. However the hands were taken from a white-dialed variant. The black-dialed ones only had grey metal hands. May I ask how much does the seller want for it?


Around £70. Good price?



mroatman said:


> I agree with Paul, dial/case/crown look good, but the hands are suspicious. The catalog specifies nickel-plated hands for the black dial.
> 
> View attachment 12446605


Cheers Dashiell. I'm not sure if I will get it or not.


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## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Cheers Dashiell. I'm not sure if I will get it or not.


If the hands don't bother you, the watch looks very nice and will certainly make you happy. Plus, the price is definitely good for such a collectible watch in such good condition.

But if you think the hands will get to you now or in the future, I'd pass. It would be near impossible to restore this watch as the nickel hands are very rare.


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## kev80e

mroatman said:


> If the hands don't bother you, the watch looks very nice and will certainly make you happy. Plus, the price is definitely good for such a collectible watch in such good condition.
> 
> But if you think the hands will get to you now or in the future, I'd pass. It would be near impossible to restore this watch as the nickel hands are very rare.


Thanks Dashiell, what if it was in a gold case? Would that be correct? Probably easier to get hold of.


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## jamesnorrisuk

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

How about this one Comrades? A bit of marking on the crystal but other than that looks pretty good to me?


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## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



jamesnorrisuk said:


> How about this one Comrades? A bit of marking on the crystal but other than that looks pretty good to me?
> 
> View attachment 12447291
> 
> View attachment 12447293
> 
> View attachment 12447297


|>|>


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## GoodNamesWereTaken

kev80e said:


> Around £70. Good price?


Yes. But check the seller's rating and sales history first. That's a great price.


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## cptwalker

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Is this a legit poljot alarm?


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## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



cptwalker said:


> Is this a legit poljot alarm?
> 
> View attachment 12448711
> View attachment 12448713
> View attachment 12448715
> View attachment 12448717


All I can find to complain about is that hands appear to have been re-lumed, the lume does not match, hands to dial, the dot at 12 is sloppy, and a dial in that pristine condition should probably be in a better case but maybe its perfect gold case was "harvested" by the gold hunters. Everything else looks good and authentic to me. Let's see what the others say.


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## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Thanks Dashiell, what if it was in a gold case? Would that be correct? Probably easier to get hold of.


Definitely chrome. The case is correct as per the catalog and other known examples. It's just the hands.


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## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



cptwalker said:


> Is this a legit poljot alarm?


I agree that it looks completely authentic, but in that condition it was bound to go quick. Hope it was you who got it.


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## cptwalker

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> I agree that it looks completely authentic, but in that condition it was bound to go quick. Hope it was you who got it.


Unfortunately not  but congrats to the comrade that did 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Definitely chrome. The case is correct as per the catalog and other known examples. It's just the hands.


It will bother me ! Shame . Thanks for the lesson .


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## WZOLL

Hello I recently purchased a nice 1967 vostok 2209 "50th anniversary of the October Revolution" watch. The case, crystal, dial, and hands appear to be original. I'm pretty sure that the crown has been replaced though. My question is if the movement is original. The movement has the circled B vostok logo at the top which I've only seen on amphibias which makes me suspect that the movement might have come from one. Is this correct? Sorry for the bad lighting.


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## schnurrp

The "B" is okay for a 1967 watch and I think the crown is authentic. Now if it has its original crystal in a profile you just can't get anymore you will have the complete package.


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## WZOLL

Based on the dirt under the crystal, the scratches and scuffs, and the dirt around where the crystal meets the case, I'm 98% sure its original unless the crystal was replaced a long time ago.


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## schnurrp

WZOLL said:


> Based on the dirt under the crystal, the scratches and scuffs, and the dirt around where the crystal meets the case, I'm 98% sure its original unless the crystal was replaced a long time ago.


I hope so for your sake. The old crystals have a more gradual curve at the edge resulting in less distortion of the dial edges. New crystals tend to have more vertical "shoulders" with a flatter face.


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## WZOLL

Now you have me curious about the vertical shoulders. What do you think of this?


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## schnurrp

WZOLL said:


> Now you have me curious about the vertical shoulders. What do you think of this?
> View attachment 12453241


That looks like a modern crystal to me. There's no doubt when you see the real thing. Here's a real old one from my collection:










And here's a Vostok similar to yours that may be in my collection later:


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## WZOLL

Ok. Thanks for the info!


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## mariomart

I just purchased this Vostok 119 from Ebay this morning as a spare parts watch (dial, crown, movement, crystal) but I also noticed something else.

The case appears to be polished stainless steel. From what I've seen from all the other 119's I own is that they all have a deeply brushed sunburst effect on the upper surface. Polished tonneau cases didn't occur until the release of the 090 modern cases with 22mm lug width. This case has an 18mm lug width.

There is always the possibility that someone has taken a normal 119 and simply polished the hell out of it to remove the rather deep brushing, or has there ever been a 119 released with a polished case that I'm just not aware of?

Looking forward to some interesting responses.
















This is what the normal Vostok 119 brushing looks like just for reference (image taken from an Ebay listing, so not mine).


----------



## cptwalker

Opinions on this one?


----------



## schnurrp

cptwalker said:


> Opinions on this one?
> 
> View attachment 12456653
> View attachment 12456655
> View attachment 12456659


Looks okay to me except for a couple of little details. The second hand is a little shorter than I'd like to see and the alarm hand is usually gold, sometimes with a red tip, but not all red like that.


----------



## sideways2

This is interesting...seems like gold over silver...


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Looks okay to me except for a couple of little details. The second hand is a little shorter than I'd like to see and the alarm hand is usually gold, sometimes with a red tip, but not all red like that.


Just an observation on another listing. It looks like there is an alarm hand that is gold but with red paint that has faded. So is the paint original or not? Any ideas?

Edit: I looked closely again at the actual watch in question and noticed that the hand is gold but entirely covered in red paint in a very similar manner to the other example. I am unsure if this painting was done later or originally at the factory on both these watches.









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



cptwalker said:


> Opinions on this one?





schnurrp said:


> Looks okay to me except for a couple of little details. The second hand is a little shorter than I'd like to see and the alarm hand is usually gold, sometimes with a red tip, but not all red like that.


I agree -- replaced second hand and painted alarm hand. Price is also way out of line.



cptwalker said:


> Just an observation on another listing. It looks like there is an alarm hand that is gold but with red paint that has faded. So is the paint original or not? Any ideas?


Looks like all four hands have been painted on this one (and not at the factory). Wrong crowns, too.


----------



## mroatman

sideways2 said:


> This is interesting...seems like gold over silver...


Yeah. Looks like an attempt to disguise a watch that had its gold case melted down for profit.

Another issue is the hands, which are not what I typically associate with this dial.


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&amp;amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mroatman said:


> I agree -- replaced second hand and painted alarm hand. Price is also way out of line.
> 
> Looks like all four hands have been painted on this one (and not at the factory). Wrong crowns, too.


Ah so they were painted afterwards. Yeah I also agree the price is pretty steep and thus was hesitant. Guess I'll keep on looking. Thanks for the franken info schnurrp and mroatman 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chascomm

sideways2 said:


> This is interesting...seems like gold over silver...


I don't think that it is authentic.

...but I like the result.


----------



## sideways2

mroatman said:


> Yeah. Looks like an attempt to disguise a watch that had its gold case melted down for profit.
> 
> Another issue is the hands, which are not what I typically associate with this dial.


I thought there was a pretty good chance it was a transplant...thanks!!


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



cptwalker said:


> Ah so they were painted afterwards. Yeah I also agree the price is pretty steep and thus was hesitant. Guess I'll keep on looking. Thanks for the franken info schnurrp and mroatman
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


On the other hand this dial with the recessed center is a little less common. Red paint can be removed but you would have a hard time finding the correct second hand. Worth having if the price is right but from what everyone is saying that's not the case.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&amp;amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Worth having if the price is right but from what everyone is saying that's not the case.


$169/delivered. Not even close.


----------



## VWatchie

sideways2 said:


> This is interesting...seems like gold over silver...
> View attachment 12457837


So, this was a Franken, but what an amazingly beautiful picture!


----------



## chien-andalou

Hi all, I am waiting for a clean version of this Poljot to show up,
and in the meanwhile I was wondering if both cases would be original for the dial?
Cheers
Peter


----------



## Bostok

Any considerations on the authenticity, production period and model of this watch please? Any info on the caseback inscription? Thank you


----------



## schnurrp

That is an unusual Luch. I would love to see a picture of the movement. That's not the usual case you see with the 2209 movement but with a Minsk Watch Factory logo on the back it is probably authentic. The other Cyrillic word on the back is "shockproof".

My guess is that it is a "youth" watch with 16mm lugs and 31.5mm diameter.


----------



## schnurrp

chien-andalou said:


> Hi all, I am waiting for a clean version of this Poljot to show up,
> and in the meanwhile I was wondering if both cases would be original for the dial?
> Cheers
> Peter


I'm sorry but I was not able to find a dial that looks like that in my catalogs. Maybe somebody else will be able to. As to the cases, have a look in the Poljot section of this 1977 catalog: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipP53wc9VZDHgwXGXMnlh2iI9_80P9ktztAzQVta. I believe they are in there, some with similar dials, but not the same to my eye.

If I had to guess I would say at least one version is authentic and it wouldn't surprise me if both were.


----------



## sideways2

Just wondering about the movement on this Pobeda...


----------



## Straight_time

It's correct - a Zim 2602, the marking is visible under the balance wheel.


----------



## sideways2

Thanks!!

It sure turned into a nice vintage brass look!!


----------



## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> Hi all, I am waiting for a clean version of this Poljot to show up,
> and in the meanwhile I was wondering if both cases would be original for the dial?





schnurrp said:


> I'm sorry but I was not able to find a dial that looks like that in my catalogs. Maybe somebody else will be able to. As to the cases, have a look in the Poljot section of this 1977 catalog: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipP53wc9VZDHgwXGXMnlh2iI9_80P9ktztAzQVta. I believe they are in there, some with similar dials, but not the same to my eye.
> If I had to guess I would say at least one version is authentic and it wouldn't surprise me if both were.


I agree -- both combinations at least *feasible*, but not sure if they're both authentic. Here are two similar ones you may find helpful as reference, with no guarantees of authenticity:


----------



## mroatman

Bostok said:


> Any considerations on the authenticity, production period and model of this watch please? Any info on the caseback inscription? Thank you





schnurrp said:


> My guess is that it is a "youth" watch with 16mm lugs and 31.5mm diameter.


Ladies watch, caliber 1809, model 823320, late-60s or early-70s. Strange that the dial is in English and the case back in Cyrillic; usually that's a sign of a franken, but in this case I'd give it a pass.

As schnurrp points out, the back says Противоударные ("Shockproof").


----------



## Victorv

hello good evening to all, how are you?

Can someone help me know if all parts of both watches are original?

Really glad for your help










Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> hello good evening to all, how are you?
> 
> Can someone help me know if all parts of both watches are original?
> 
> Really glad for your help
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


To begin with, I think they both have reproduction dials.


----------



## Neruda

I'm very much in two minds about *Victorv*'s Amphibian as to whether it's a reproduction dial or a rather bleached photo.

I believe the triangle at 12 o'clock would have started out red - but Vostok's red often fades becoming almost invisible. Do I see a slight tint of pink on the triangle? If so this might suggest the dial is indeed old.

On the other hand, the dots marking the hours on the edge of the dial should, I think, have been spots of lume, and should be quite raised, but I don't see this texture. With age the lume also often takes on a slightly yellowish/ivory colour, and again I don't see this.


----------



## Straight_time

I'd tend to think the Amphibia is correct. 

AFAIK the faked dials of that style are those with the Cyrillic "Boctok" marking, don't recall to have ever seen any of the export version.


----------



## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> I'm very much in two minds about *Victorv*'s Amphibian as to whether it's a reproduction dial or a rather bleached photo.
> 
> I believe the triangle at 12 o'clock would have started out red - but Vostok's red often fades becoming almost invisible. Do I see a slight tint of pink on the triangle? If so this might suggest the dial is indeed old.
> 
> On the other hand, the dots marking the hours on the edge of the dial should, I think, have been spots of lume, and should be quite raised, but I don't see this texture. With age the lume also often takes on a slightly yellowish/ivory colour, and again I don't see this.





Straight_time said:


> I'd tend to think the Amphibia is correct.
> 
> AFAIK the faked dials of that style are those with the Cyrillic "Boctok" marking, don't recall to have ever seen any of the export version.


I change my mind on the type 119 and agree with my esteemed comrades, the type 119 amphibian is probably correct.

Under magnification it appears that the triangle is, indeed, faded red. A version of this dial is shown in a 1980 catalog with a red triangle: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipOHOaka99UMS0chPFbwQiy3KG0qik6ebw9LFB9U

Also to my eye the lume dots lose their regularity a bit and even acquire some shading consistent with hand-painted dots.

I would take a chance if the price was right but otherwise I would want to see more, less over-exposed (better) pictures.


----------



## armanh

Dear experts,

Need your opinion about this Slava. It looks a little "too clean" to be all original. Thoughts?


----------



## schnurrp

armanh said:


> Dear experts,
> 
> Need your opinion about this Slava. It looks a little "too clean"


I've never seen a watch that looks "too clean". The cleaner the better, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't see anything wrong with that one at all. It appears to be an export version of this one from an 1983 catalog:


----------



## VWatchie

I've been looking for a Raketa 2609 to service for a pretty long time now (it's the tinkering part that I like the most) and so from that pov I could of course get myself any Raketa with a 2609. _Nevertheless, I still want to avoid the __Franken__ watches._ No one seems to link to eBay ads here. I don't know if it's because it isn't allowed (please let me know) or to avoid getting it snatched in front of your nose. Anyway, I'll take my chances. So here it is, legit or Franken? I really like the minute indices, the hands and the style (font) of the numbers. Thank you very much!


----------



## schnurrp

Looks authentic.
Here it is in a 1989 catalog: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNFQnFQuWLVpHczgQpbtSpjBwX8uh1XuqMDfR0E

Although you can never really tell for sure from the descriptions, I would be looking for one described as "needs service", etc., instead of one that is described as operating correctly, "serviced", etc. It's really fun to bring one back to life (not so fun to degrade a good operating one) by your efforts.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Looks authentic.
> Here it is in a 1989 catalog: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNFQnFQuWLVpHczgQpbtSpjBwX8uh1XuqMDfR0E
> 
> Although you can never really tell for sure from the descriptions, I would be looking for one described as "needs service", etc., instead of one that is described as operating correctly, "serviced", etc. It's really fun to bring one back to life (not so fun to degrade a good operating one) by your efforts.


Thanks! However, there are a couple of differences that notice. 1) The minute hand is considerably shorter in the catalog, 2) the Raketa logo differs, and 3) the dial in the catalog looks a bit like mother-of-pearl. I like the version on eBay better because of the minute hand, but if it indeed is a Franken I'll pass. I don't know why, but I'm a sucker for long minute hands. Most German watches have long minute hands that very precisely connects with the indices. I must have been a German watchmaker in a former life ;-)

In my (pretty short time) experience most used Russian watches are advertised as "serviced", but when put on my Timegrapher they always seem to be in dire need of a service. Other brands seem to more often mention the need for a service, but not Russian watches. Or, is it just me?


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Thanks! However, there are a couple of differences that notice. 1) The minute hand is considerably shorter in the catalog, 2) the Raketa logo differs, and 3) the dial in the catalog looks a bit like mother-of-pearl. I like the version on eBay better because of the minute hand, but if it indeed is a Franken I'll pass. I don't know why, but I'm a sucker for long minute hands. Most German watches have long minute hands that very precisely connects with the indices. I must have been a German watchmaker in a former life ;-)
> 
> In my (pretty short time) experience most used Russian watches are advertised as "serviced", but when put on my Timegrapher they always seem to be in dire need of a service. Other brands seem to more often mention the need for a service, but not Russian watches. Or, is it just me?


You have made some careful observations, comrade, about an item for which it will never be known if it is authentic or not unless the original owner is your Uncle Igor who will swear he bought it from the special Raketa export store in St. Petersburg. That being said, to me, the variations you mention are those one might expect when comparing an actual item with multiple factory runs to its single catalog picture which does not appear to be a photograph. The main correct elements are present so to me "it looks authentic". If you're not convinced I suggest you search further. There are many, many, authentic 2609 Raketas for sale, a most successful watch movement and found in many designs.

Good point about Russian watches being advertised as "serviced". It is possible, ironically, to find one "needing service" if you look hard enough. Not the kind of search we usually undertake.

Good luck!


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> To begin with, I think they both have reproduction dials.





Neruda said:


> I'm very much in two minds about *Victorv*'s Amphibian as to whether it's a reproduction dial or a rather bleached photo.
> 
> I believe the triangle at 12 o'clock would have started out red - but Vostok's red often fades becoming almost invisible. Do I see a slight tint of pink on the triangle? If so this might suggest the dial is indeed old.
> 
> On the other hand, the dots marking the hours on the edge of the dial should, I think, have been spots of lume, and should be quite raised, but I don't see this texture. With age the lume also often takes on a slightly yellowish/ivory colour, and again I don't see this.





Straight_time said:


> I'd tend to think the Amphibia is correct.
> 
> AFAIK the faked dials of that style are those with the Cyrillic "Boctok" marking, don't recall to have ever seen any of the export version.





schnurrp said:


> I change my mind on the type 119 and agree with my esteemed comrades, the type 119 amphibian is probably correct.
> 
> Under magnification it appears that the triangle is, indeed, faded red. A version of this dial is shown in a 1980 catalog with a red triangle: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipOHOaka99UMS0chPFbwQiy3KG0qik6ebw9LFB9U
> 
> Also to my eye the lume dots lose their regularity a bit and even acquire some shading consistent with hand-painted dots.
> 
> I would take a chance if the price was right but otherwise I would want to see more, less over-exposed (better) pictures.
> 
> View attachment 12475407


Many many thaks dear comrades, really glad for your help. I have a bad photo of the lume, this 119 case with this dial it's a model that i want since time ago, but i want a 100% genuine Amphia.


----------



## Victorv

Here a bad photo of the lume









Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Here a bad photo of the lume
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


It's hard to take good pictures of lume so I must ask whether, in your opinion, the lume is strong or weak. If the lume is fairly strong and useful then the dial is either a reproduction or the dial is vintage but has been re-lumed. It's ironic that poorly performing lume is a sign of authenticity since it appears the soviets never perfected the application of strong, long-lasting lume. Of course you may not mind a vintage watch dial that has been re-lumed, some do, some don't.

If the lume is weak then there's a good chance the dial is authentic.


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> To begin with, I think they both have reproduction dials.





Neruda said:


> I'm very much in two minds about *Victorv*'s Amphibian as to whether it's a reproduction dial or a rather bleached photo.
> 
> I believe the triangle at 12 o'clock would have started out red - but Vostok's red often fades becoming almost invisible. Do I see a slight tint of pink on the triangle? If so this might suggest the dial is indeed old.
> 
> On the other hand, the dots marking the hours on the edge of the dial should, I think, have been spots of lume, and should be quite raised, but I don't see this texture. With age the lume also often takes on a slightly yellowish/ivory colour, and again I don't see this.





Straight_time said:


> I'd tend to think the Amphibia is correct.
> 
> AFAIK the faked dials of that style are those with the Cyrillic "Boctok" marking, don't recall to have ever seen any of the export version.





schnurrp said:


> It's hard to take good pictures of lume so I must ask whether, in your opinion, the lume is strong or weak. If the lume is fairly strong and useful then the dial is either a reproduction or the dial is vintage but has been re-lumed. It's ironic that poorly performing lume is a sign of authenticity since it appears the soviets never perfected the application of strong, long-lasting lume. Of course you may not mind a vintage watch dial that has been re-lumed, some do, some don't.
> 
> If the lume is weak then there's a good chance the dial is authentic.


Many thanks Comrade. It makes a lot of sense what you say, the lume I see quite powerful for a vintage watch. So I'm going to let it go and look for another

Many thanks, really


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> You have made some careful observations, comrade, about an item for which it will never be known if it is authentic or not *unless the original owner is your Uncle Igor who will swear he bought it from the special Raketa export store in St. Petersburg*. That being said, to me, the variations you mention are those one might expect when comparing an actual item with multiple factory runs to its single catalog picture which does not appear to be a photograph. The main correct elements are present so to me "it looks authentic". If you're not convinced I suggest you search further. There are many, many, authentic 2609 Raketas for sale, a most successful watch movement and found in many designs.
> 
> Good point about Russian watches being advertised as "serviced". It is possible, ironically, to find one "needing service" if you look hard enough. Not the kind of search we usually undertake.
> 
> Good luck!


I just love the way you put that and I just LOL reading it! It also goes to show, I'm afraid, how little I know and understand about the market for Russian vintage watches. _Much, much appreciated!_ If it's still around tomorrow I'll pick it up. Something tells me I'm going to be very fond of it.


----------



## cptwalker

I found this watch with an interesting dial that I haven't seen before. Is this authentic?

Rare Столичные 1-мчз 1950&apos;s (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay

I've also been following this rodina but I am unsure if the dial is original because there is no text directly under the hands. I have seen some with the text and others without.

РОДИНА 1мчз (POLJOT) Authentic 1950&apos;s USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


----------



## mariomart

cptwalker said:


> I found this watch with an interesting dial that I haven't seen before. Is this authentic?
> 
> Rare Столичные 1-мчз 1950&apos;s (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


I pretty much know nothing about these, other than it being a Stolichnye (I think that's how it's spelt). I would say the dial is authentic and overall it's a very beautiful and elegant timepiece.


----------



## schnurrp

cptwalker said:


> I found this watch with an interesting dial that I haven't seen before. Is this authentic?
> 
> Rare Ð¡Ñ‚Ð¾Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ñ‹Ðµ 1-Ð¼Ñ‡Ð· 1950&apos;s (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay
> 
> I've also been following this rodina but I am unsure if the dial is original because there is no text directly under the hands. I have seen some with the text and others without.
> 
> Ð.ÐžÐ"Ð˜Ð�Ð� 1Ð¼Ñ‡Ð· (POLJOT) Authentic 1950&apos;s USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


The stolichnie has had its signature "acorn" crown replaced. I think this crown is important to the success of the design of this watch and for that reason I would not buy unless the price was low enough so that I could spend more to replace the crown with an original one, not that easy to find.

The Rodina dial looks okay to me but the hands are incorrect. They should be solid and gold-plated. Lumed hands on a watch with non-lumed dial is rarely seen and doesn't make sense.


----------



## cptwalker

schnurrp said:


> The Rodina dial looks okay to me but the hands are incorrect. They should be solid and gold-plated. Lumed hands on a watch with non-lumed dial is rarely seen and doesn't make sense.


I'm watching another rodina but with solid gold-plated hands. Would you say this one is original?

Vintage Russian Men&apos;s Watch USSR RODINA AUTOMATIC 22 Jewels White 1M43 1950&apos;s | eBay


----------



## schnurrp

cptwalker said:


> I'm watching another rodina but with solid gold-plated hands. Would you say this one is original?
> 
> Vintage Russian Men&apos;s Watch USSR RODINA AUTOMATIC 22 Jewels White 1M43 1950&apos;s | eBay


That one looks okay except the same thing could be said about the crown as was said about the stolichnie, crown replaced.


----------



## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> I found this watch with an interesting dial that I haven't seen before. Is this authentic?
> Rare Ð¡Ñ‚Ð¾Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ñ‹Ðµ 1-Ð¼Ñ‡Ð· 1950&apos;s (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay
> I've also been following this rodina but I am unsure if the dial is original because there is no text directly under the hands. I have seen some with the text and others without.
> Ð.ÐžÐ"Ð˜Ð�Ð� 1Ð¼Ñ‡Ð· (POLJOT) Authentic 1950&apos;s USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


Some visual reference for how these watches should look, I believe. The crown on the Stolichnie fades into the background, but if you look closely is identical to the rounded crown on the Rodina.


----------



## cptwalker

I had not realized how often people replace the crown on these. I always learn something new when I post here. Thanks again.


----------



## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> I had not realized how often people replace the crown on these.


For most people, even many collectors I'd say, a replaced crown is a matter of course. Only extreme geeks who seek out absolute authenticity in every way could possibly get worked up over such a trivial detail. (That's us 🤜🤛)


----------



## cptwalker

mroatman said:


> For most people, even many collectors I'd say, a replaced crown is a matter of course. Only extreme geeks who seek out absolute authenticity in every way could possibly get worked up over such a trivial detail. (That's us 卵亂)


Even though I now know the crown is replaced on the stolichnie, the simple elegance of the dial is very tempting lol


----------



## mariomart

cptwalker said:


> Even though I now know the crown is replaced on the stolichnie, the simple elegance of the dial is very tempting lol


I agree. Here's mine


----------



## cptwalker

mariomart said:


> I agree. Here's mine


What a beauty! Nice strap too


----------



## mariomart

cptwalker said:


> What a beauty! Nice strap too


Gotta love a lizard skin strap


----------



## VWatchie

So, found me another Raketa that looks legit to me (but again I haven't got anything to back it up). Never saw this model before and I just love the minute railroad indices and the long minute hand sweeping over it. I'd be surprised if it is a Franken, but I'd really appreciate your opinions. Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> So, found me another Raketa that looks legit to me (but again I haven't got anything to back it up). Never saw this model before and I just love the minute railroad indices and the long minute hand sweeping over it. I'd be surprised if it is a Franken, but I'd really appreciate your opinions. Thanks!


This common Raketa style from the latter half of the 80s into the early 90s, appeared in several similar forms. Your example, in a different color scheme, appears in the 92 catalog and differs from the others by the lack of any outline around its rectangular date window. Three different finishes are listed with the picture. Perhaps a Russian reader can decipher what the others were from the descriptions found in this catalog and whether your example is one of them.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> This common Raketa style from the latter half of the 80s into the early 90s, appeared in several similar forms. Your example, in a different color scheme, appears in the 92 catalog and differs from the others by the lack of any outline around its rectangular date window. Three different finishes are listed with the picture. Perhaps a Russian reader can decipher what the others were from the descriptions found in this catalog and whether your example is one of them.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12486385


I guess it's the different color scheme that made feel I hadn't seen this form before, but I guess I must have. Judging by the images it looks to be in very good shape, right? The only thing that has me wondering is the black spots on the minute hand (see the image). I wonder if it was originally black and then painted white... Although white definitely feels like the natural choice of color for this dial.


----------



## mroatman

24 Hours said:


> The only thing that has me wondering is the black spots on the minute hand (see the image). I wonder if it was originally black and then painted white... Although white definitely feels like the natural choice of color for this dial.


Yes, likely painted, and yes, likely original.

Straight from the factory with the same defect:


----------



## VWatchie

mroatman said:


> Yes, likely painted, and yes, likely original.
> 
> Straight from the factory with the same defect:
> 
> View attachment 12490003


I'm learning all the time, thanks! A non-Russian (Swiss) watch with this "blemish" would never have passed QC and that's why I thought it couldn't possibly be original. BTW, that's one BEAUTIFUL watch you got there!


----------



## VWatchie

I don't get this. Look here; a nice looking Vostok with a 2409 movement (without date complication), right?









However, turn it dial up and you'll find, _yes, a date complication_!!!









Can someone tell me what's going on? The only explanation I can think of is a faux date complication, but that just sounds too unlikely.


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> I don't get this. Look here; a nice looking Vostok with a 2409 movement (without date complication), right?
> 
> View attachment 12490197
> 
> 
> However, turn it dial up and you'll find, _yes, a date complication_!!!
> 
> View attachment 12490201
> 
> 
> Can someone tell me what's going on? The only explanation I can think of is a faux date complication, but that just sounds too unlikely.


The date mechanism is found on the dial side of the movement comrade. From the back side the 2409 and 2414 look the same.


----------



## mariomart

24 Hours said:


> I don't get this. Look here; a nice looking Vostok with a 2409 movement (without date complication), right?
> However, turn it dial up and you'll find, _yes, a date complication_!!!
> Can someone tell me what's going on? The only explanation I can think of is a faux date complication, but that just sounds too unlikely.


 My best guess is that the bridge has been replaced as I believe they are interchangeable (not that I've tried it myself)


----------



## mroatman

24 Hours said:


> I don't get this. Look here; a nice looking Vostok with a 2409 movement (without date complication), right?
> However, turn it dial up and you'll find, _yes, a date complication_!!!
> Can someone tell me what's going on? The only explanation I can think of is a faux date complication, but that just sounds too unlikely.


Mario is right. Parts interchangeability is extremely high among Soviet watches, so the bridge has simply been replaced with one bearing the wrong caliber stamp.

Repairs like this, using "incorrect" but perfectly-functioning parts, are very common.


----------



## Kittycat

I've seen this very special piece in a respectable seller's shop, and think it's likely genuine. However I would like a second opinion before submitting an offer.


----------



## mroatman

Kittycat said:


> I've seen this very special piece in a respectable seller's shop, and think it's likely genuine. However I would like a second opinion before submitting an offer.


Aside from the second hand and crown (minor issues, really) -- yes, fully authentic. A lovely commemorative design, and Miro is a top-notch seller 👍


----------



## kev80e

What do you make of this guy's ? I quite like it's quirkiness.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> The date mechanism is found on the dial side of the movement comrade. From the back side the 2409 and 2414 look the same.





mariomart said:


> My best guess is that the bridge has been replaced as I believe they are interchangeable (not that I've tried it myself)





mroatman said:


> Mario is right. Parts interchangeability is extremely high among Soviet watches, so the bridge has simply been replaced with one bearing the wrong caliber stamp.
> 
> Repairs like this, using "incorrect" but perfectly-functioning parts, are very common.


Thanks, comrades! As far as I know, all 2409 parts are interchangeable with the 2414 parts so this is, of course, the _very obvious explanation_.

You know, I wonder why I didn't think of this myself. Whether it's because I'm just not smart enough (i.e. stupid) or whether my own respect for not mixing and matching parts is too great (I could never make myself put a 2409 bridge on a 2414 movement). Probably a bit of both, I'm afraid. Anyway, with the all the wonderful help you're providing me, I know I'll survive!


----------



## VWatchie

mroatman said:


> Aside from the second hand and crown (minor issues, really) -- yes, fully authentic. A lovely commemorative design, and Miro is a top-notch seller 


I'm always on the lookout for good sellers. I've tried to locate Miro but failed. Could you please provide a link? Thanks!


----------



## dutchassasin

24 Hours said:


> I'm always on the lookout for good sellers. I've tried to locate Miro but failed. Could you please provide a link? Thanks!


if i remember correctly his ebay name is: miromanbay


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Thanks, comrades! As far as I know, all 2409 parts are interchangeable with the 2414 parts so this is, of course, the _very obvious explanation_.
> 
> You know, I wonder why I didn't think of this myself. Whether it's because I'm just not smart enough (i.e. stupid) or whether my own respect for not mixing and matching parts is too great (I could never make myself put a 2409 bridge on a 2414 movement). Probably a bit of both, I'm afraid. Anyway, with the all the wonderful help you're providing me, I know I'll survive!


Many of us have spent hours over the years staring and musing about such things. It takes some time and effort as you will realize if you continue.

The substituting of parts can be the result of someone "constructing" a watch to sell, of course, but the soviet attitude of "whatever works" to keep their timepieces working can also indicate that the replaced parts are authentic repairs done by the owner or his watchmaker, impossible to know.

Believe me, no one on f10 considers you "not smart enough", comrade, just a fellow collector trying to understand.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> What do you make of this guy's ? I quite like it's quirkiness.
> View attachment 12491761
> View attachment 12491765
> View attachment 12491767
> View attachment 12491769


Quirky-looking for a reason, Kev, in my opinion. Not the dial you usually see with the "asymmetric" case.


----------



## cptwalker

Do these model of Mayaks have luminescence on the hands? It looks like it to me but the seller insists that the green paint is neither tritium or radium. Anyone can confirm this?


----------



## schnurrp

cptwalker said:


> Do these model of Mayaks have luminescence on the hands? It looks like it to me but the seller insists that the green paint is neither tritium or radium. Anyone can confirm this?
> 
> View attachment 12494125


I don't believe that particular style of hands was made to be lumed or painted, either one, one of the rare examples of true "skeleton" hands found on soviet watches. Also, with no lume dots on the dial, lumed hands don't make sense.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Quirky-looking for a reason, Kev, in my opinion. Not the dial you usually see with the "asymmetric" case.
> 
> View attachment 12492623
> 
> 
> View attachment 12492625


Thanks Schnurrp. I had a feeling the dial was wrong, I see this dial in Sekonda a lot, but the case is great. Another on my slava list.


----------



## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> Do these model of Mayaks have luminescence on the hands? It looks like it to me but the seller insists that the green paint is neither tritium or radium. Anyone can confirm this?





schnurrp said:


> I don't believe that particular style of hands was made to be lumed or painted, either one, one of the rare examples of true "skeleton" hands found on soviet watches.


I don't know, I tend to disagree. I think these hands were painted a blueish-green tint on Mayak models (maybe not the Raketa or Svet equivalents, can't be sure). At least, it's extremely common to find these with a similar shade of paint. I doubt the frankenmeisters are collaborating against us....









This wouldn't be the first instance of Soviets using teal paint in the early 1960s (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), so there is precedent.

But anyway, schnurrp and the seller are right that it's definitely not radium. So bid away.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> Thanks Schnurrp. I had a feeling the dial was wrong, I see this dial in Sekonda a lot, but the case is great. Another on my slava list.


Have a look here, kev:


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Have a look here, kev:
> 
> 
> View attachment 12495275


Cheers, I'd lost the link to these catalogues and loads of other stuff due to my computer stupidity .


----------



## Straight_time

View attachment 12494125


Oddly, the 1960 catalog doesn't specify anything about painting or luming of hands. :think:

Here's the Google-translated description of that model (_those models_, actually):



> «МАЯК» 221ЧН Оформление ЧН-1116К и ЧН-1117К
> 
> Корпус хромированный (ЧН-1116К) или золоченый (ЧН-1117К) пылевлагонепроницаемый диаметром 32,6 мм с многогранным фигурным ободком.
> Толщина слоя золота 20 мк 850-й пробы.
> Крышка из нержавеющей стали крепится к корпусу резьбовым кольцом.
> Стекло органическое сферической формы.
> Циферблат серебреный рельефный с неполной оцифровкой: 2, 4, 8, 10, 12. Нечетные цифры заменены треугольными знаками.
> Цифры и знаки рельефные золотистые.
> В центре рельефные радиальные лучи. Под цифрами и минутной шкалой рельефные полуокружности. Минутная шкала с шестьюдесятью делениями, каждое пятое деление утолщено.
> Секундная шкала с двенадцатью делениями и цифрами: 15, 30, 45, 60. Шкалы, оцифровка секундной шкалы и надписи на циферблате черные.
> Стрелки золоченые, часовая и минутная контурные.
> 
> "LIGHTHOUSE" 221CHN Registration of CHN-1116K and CHN-1117K
> 
> Chromium plated body (CHN-1116K) or gilded (CHN-1117K) dust-proof impermeable with a diameter of 32.6 mm with a polyhedral figured rim.
> The thickness of the gold layer is 20 m of the 850th test.
> The stainless steel cover is attached to the body by a threaded ring. Glass is an organic spherical shape.
> The dial is silvered relief with incomplete digitization: 2, 4, 8, 10, 12. Odd figures are replaced by triangular signs.
> Numbers and signs are embossed in gold.
> In the center of the relief radial rays. Under the figures and the minute scale, the relief semicircles.
> A minute scale with sixty divisions, every fifth division is thickened.
> The second scale with twelve divisions and figures: 15, 30, 45, 60. Scales, digitizing the second scale and the inscription on the dial are black.
> The hands are gilt, hour and minute contour.


As a side note, I believe the pictured watch is a franken because according to the description the decorated dial should be fitted into cases with faceted (polyhedral) rim _only_; a case with a plain rim belongs, among others, to model ЧН-187К, with a dial very similar in design (2-4-8-10-12 + triangles) but also plain -that is, lacking the relief decoration.


----------



## cptwalker

Straight_time said:


> As a side note, I believe the pictured watch is a franken because according to the description the decorated dial should be fitted into cases with faceted (polyhedral) rim _only_; a case with a plain rim belongs, among others, to model ЧН-187К, with a dial very similar in design (2-4-8-10-12 + triangles) but also plain -that is, lacking the relief decoration.


Yeah I believe the case is wrong as well. For the price though, I was looking for a bund strap and the semi-franken mayak would be a bonus lol. As you stated, the case is not correct for the particular model but it lines up with mroatman's far left example. If the bidding gets high i'm out though.


----------



## chien-andalou

first: thank you schnurrp and mroatman for your replies from a week ago on my Poljot question

second: two Poljot automatics currently on ebay and sharing the same white, rather suspicious, hands: both from a watch with white dial marks?

Is it really that hard for sellers to (have) put the correct hands in watches they (have) service(d)? Or is it just too easy to sell them like this? 

thanks

Peter


----------



## schnurrp

chien-andalou said:


> first: thank you schnurrp and mroatman for your replies from a week ago on my Poljot question
> 
> second: two Poljot automatics currently on ebay and sharing the same white, rather suspicious, hands: both from a watch with white dial marks?
> 
> Is it really that hard for sellers to (have) put the correct hands in watches they (have) service(d)? Or is it just too easy to sell them like this?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Peter


I don't think it is possible for me to judge with absolute accuracy whether these two are totally authentic. They could have been "created" from a pile of parts, choosing the best most pleasing to the "creator".

Personally, I would rather see the case match the finish of the hour bars and hands which should be tapered and solid. Second hand could match or perhaps be white or red.

Here are a couple catalog shots, you be the judge.

















I know it's hard to realize but I think it's rare to find a seller who has an encyclopedic knowledge of what's authentic. I believe the opposite can be true, relying on a third party supplier's word or just presenting what looks nice to them.


----------



## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> Or is it just too easy to sell them like this?


^ This.

How many buyers are actually going to the internet to source old Soviet watch catalogs, pouring over said catalogs to find an exact model (if they can) to compare against for legitimacy, then consulting with other 'eksperts' in the field to discuss the relatively likelihood of one part being used over another? I can say with great confidence: not many.

If I had to guess, I'd say the vast majority of casual watch buyers - and even many collectors - simply go online to a place like eBay, find what they like, and click "Buy it now".


----------



## chien-andalou

mroatman said:


> ^ This.
> 
> If I had to guess, I'd say the vast majority of casual watch buyers - and even many collectors - simply go online to a place like eBay, find what they like, and click "Buy it now".


Sounds like pure bliss to me!! 
But then again, doubts might appear like dark clouds at the horizon. And each time you look full of pride at your beautiful watch, you sense something's off, and it starts with a hint of a whisper but after a few days it gets louder and louder: wrong hands, WRONG HANDS, WRONG HANDS!, till lightning strikes and suddenly you are not wearing your beloved watch anymore, but you can only see it for what it is, a (_terrifying_ _scream and dramatic music_) FRANKENWATCH. 
The horror!

So, yeah, for some the simple way is to come to F10 and ask some very nice people for their help and opinion.


----------



## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> But then again, doubts might appear like dark clouds at the horizon. And each time you look full of pride at your beautiful watch, you sense something's off, and it starts with a hint of a whisper but after a few days it gets louder and louder: wrong hands, WRONG HANDS, WRONG HANDS!, till lightning strikes and suddenly you are not wearing your beloved watch anymore, but you can only see it for what it is, a (_terrifying_ _scream and dramatic music_) FRANKENWATCH.
> The horror!


I know you're being facetious, but this is, like, _exactly_ what happens to me 😂


----------



## cptwalker

I've been eyeballing this kirovskie. Authentic?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/511336236/ultra-rare-soviet-watch-kirovskie-1950s

Movement:
https://img1.etsystatic.com/216/0/100029935/icm_fullxfull.135836391_mv64kz6tri80oog0scs0.jpg


----------



## chien-andalou

mroatman said:


> I know you're being facetious, but this is, like, _exactly_ what happens to me 😂


Happiness from old watches, a fragile state of mind indeed.

Luckily some threats are easier to spot than others. Two more regrettable Poljots on ebay:
a stadium with a dial combination that screams Franken, 
and the green one seems to be having serious issues with hands, crown and even movement? No wonder it is cheap.


----------



## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> I've been eyeballing this kirovskie. Authentic?
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/511336236/ultra-rare-soviet-watch-kirovskie-1950s
> Movement:
> https://img1.etsystatic.com/216/0/100029935/icm_fullxfull.135836391_mv64kz6tri80oog0scs0.jpg


A-okay by me 👍


----------



## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> and the green one seems to be having serious issues with hands, crown and even movement? No wonder it is cheap.


Perhaps a worthy contender for this old thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/franken-week-88091-126.html#post43208394


----------



## cptwalker

mroatman said:


> Perhaps a worthy contender for this old thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/franken-week-88091-126.html#post43208394


Here's a recent franken that made me cringe a bit

Early USSR POBEDA ZIM RARE GREEN DIAL 1959 year 2q-59 Serviced | eBay

On another note.. Is this vostok precision legit? Also is that a copper dial? I almost never see this type of dial on russian watches. Blued hands as well?

Vostok precision class Authentic 22j Cal.2809 USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


----------



## schnurrp

cptwalker said:


> Here's a recent franken that made me cringe a bit
> 
> Early USSR POBEDA ZIM RARE GREEN DIAL 1959 year 2q-59 Serviced | eBay
> 
> On another note.. Is this vostok precision legit? Also is that a copper dial? I almost never see this type of dial on russian watches. Blued hands as well?
> 
> Vostok precision class Authentic 22j Cal.2809 USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


Looks good to me. I think it's the warm lighting that makes that dial look coppery. Yes, blued hands.

Mine:


----------



## Victorv

Hello dear comrades, what do you think about this vintage Amphibia?

Many many thanks in advance









Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb

Just wondering what you guys think. I am new to these watches and it seems pretty easy to get duped. The case looks to be stainless, as there are dings but no brass. But the crown is definitely chromed. The hands look right to me, but again, I am new. Thank you!


----------



## GoodNamesWereTaken

Victorv said:


> Hello dear comrades, what do you think about this vintage Amphibia?
> 
> Many many thanks in advance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


Watch is genuine. Buy it if you like!


----------



## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> On another note.. Is this vostok precision legit? Also is that a copper dial? I almost never see this type of dial on russian watches. Blued hands as well?
> Vostok precision class Authentic 22j Cal.2809 USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay





schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me. I think it's the warm lighting that makes that dial look coppery. Yes, blued hands.


Yep, it's legit, but it has a standard silver sunburst dial. A few other variations (blued hands visible on the gold-plated model):


----------



## mroatman

Victorv said:


> Hello dear comrades, what do you think about this vintage Amphibia?


Hands appear repainted. Otherwise legit.


----------



## kev80e

What do you make of this guy's , it looks original but is it?






.


----------



## schnurrp

Dub Rubb said:


> Just wondering what you guys think. I am new to these watches and it seems pretty easy to get duped. The case looks to be stainless, as there are dings but no brass. But the crown is definitely chromed. The hands look right to me, but again, I am new. Thank you!


You are right about the case and the crown and they appear to be authentic. I would prefer a bezel with a white lume dot for that case type but one like that is often seen. The dial I am not familiar with and so I can't say for sure; maybe somebody else has one and will post a picture. I would say it's 50/50 or less that the dial is authentic. The second hand appears authentic but the hour and minute hands look like the reproduction replacement set pictured below left beside the authentic Vostok set which has a slimmer hour hand and a minute hand with a narrower lume slot. Welcome to the forum!


----------



## Luis965

kev80e said:


> What do you make of this guy's , it looks original but is it?
> View attachment 12509033
> .
> View attachment 12509035


This old movement with the silver gears should have the old yellow balance wheel:


----------



## kev80e

Lol965 said:


> This old movement with the silver gears should have the old yellow balance wheel:


I think the movement has definitely had some work done on it, I can't see a poljot symbol so my guess is the chronograph bridge was replaced. But the dial is something I don't remember seeing before with 23 rubis antichoc .


----------



## SinanjuStein

kev80e said:


> I think the movement has definitely had some work done on it, I can't see a poljot symbol so my guess is the chronograph bridge was replaced. But the dial is something I don't remember seeing before with 23 rubis antichoc .


I don't think i've ever seen a French export Poljot 3133, though Poljot did export a few watch to the French market.


----------



## Victorv

GoodNamesWereTaken said:


> Watch is genuine. Buy it if you like!





mroatman said:


> Hands appear repainted. Otherwise legit.
> 
> View attachment 12507949
> 
> 
> View attachment 12507951


Many many thanks guys.

Hello Dashiell, I read your comment yesterday and asked the seller if the hands had been repainted. He just said no, that's all original.

As soon as I get there I'll make some better photos and if you want you can give me your opinion, okay?

Many thanks guys


----------



## MattBrace

kev80e said:


> I think the movement has definitely had some work done on it, I can't see a poljot symbol so my guess is the chronograph bridge was replaced. But the dial is something I don't remember seeing before with 23 rubis antichoc .


Kev, apart from the balance wheel the dial is legit and the lack of a Poljot crown on the movement is also viable. a small amount of watches did not carry any markings from around this period.

Cheers


----------



## kev80e

MattBrace said:


> Kev, apart from the balance wheel the dial is legit and the lack of a Poljot crown on the movement is also viable. a small amount of watches did not carry any markings from around this period.
> 
> Cheers


Thanks very much Matt, I didn't know about the lack of poljot markings on movements. I'm glad the dial is genuine, I'm really tempted to see if I can get my hands on it. 
I'm guessing these don't turn up very often.


----------



## fliegerchrono

Well I already had this blue dial Sturmanskie









But I bought this one yesterday, no chrome rings around the compaxes, black hands, I really like it but haven't seen one before.....









Follow me on Instagram!
https://www.instagram.com/racingchronograph/


----------



## SennaGTS

Hi guys, what about this "NOS" Chaika/Chayka that's said to be from the 80s? I've never seen one before.


----------



## armanh

Thoughts about this zarya? Hands original? No serial number or any other inscriptions on the case back.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> What do you make of this guy's , it looks original but is it?





kev80e said:


> I think the movement has definitely had some work done on it, I can't see a poljot symbol so my guess is the chronograph bridge was replaced. But the dial is something I don't remember seeing before with 23 rubis antichoc .





SinanjuStein said:


> I don't think i've ever seen a French export Poljot 3133, though Poljot did export a few watch to the French market.





kev80e said:


> Thanks very much Matt, I didn't know about the lack of poljot markings on movements. I'm glad the dial is genuine, I'm really tempted to see if I can get my hands on it.
> I'm guessing these don't turn up very often.


Indeed, a rare variation for the French market. Boris had one:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/one-first-3133-ever-784045.html
Very Early and rare 3133 / SOLD


----------



## mroatman

armanh said:


> Thoughts about this zarya? Hands original? No serial number or any other inscriptions on the case back.


Hands should be gilt to match the hour markers, in my opinion.

















In general, my experience with Soviet watches is that hands should match the indices, regardless of the case color:


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Indeed, a rare variation for the French market. Boris had one:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/one-first-3133-ever-784045.html
> Very Early and rare 3133 / SOLD


Interesting that his has the poljot Mark on the chronograph bridge which is what I suspected. So I'd need a bridge and a balance. Still worth a go at the right price. Waiting for the seller to get back to me.


----------



## SennaGTS

SennaGTS said:


> Hi guys, what about this "NOS" Chaika/Chayka that's said to be from the 80s? I've never seen one before.
> 
> View attachment 12512365
> 
> 
> View attachment 12512367


Updated with movement photos just sent to me.


----------



## sideways2

A buddy and were talking...I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I take it these are not reissues?? Sorry...not up to speed on Strumanskie's!!


----------



## dutchassasin

sideways2 said:


> A buddy and were talking...I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I take it these are not reissues?? Sorry...not up to speed on Strumanskie's!!


----------



## sideways2

ROFL!!!!

Thanks man...too funny!!

I was pretty sure the whole lot of those and the "aviator" type dials were fake


----------



## Dub Rubb

schnurrp said:


> You are right about the case and the crown and they appear to be authentic. I would prefer a bezel with a white lume dot for that case type but one like that is often seen. The dial I am not familiar with and so I can't say for sure; maybe somebody else has one and will post a picture. I would say it's 50/50 or less that the dial is authentic. The second hand appears authentic but the hour and minute hands look like the reproduction replacement set pictured below left beside the authentic Vostok set which has a slimmer hour hand and a minute hand with a narrower lume slot. Welcome to the forum!
> 
> [iurl="https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12509503&d=1505531652"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/iurl] [iurl="https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12509505&d=1505531872"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/iurl]


 Thanks for all the info! I appreciate,and am learning something new every day on here.


----------



## SennaGTS

SennaGTS said:


> Updated with movement photos just sent to me.
> 
> View attachment 12512547


Anyone please? Sorry for bumping this with quotes of the photos, but I'm looking to get this as a gift for someone if it's all legit.


----------



## schnurrp

SennaGTS said:


> Anyone please? Sorry for bumping this with quotes of the photos, but I'm looking to get this as a gift for someone if it's all legit.


 Despite the fact that I can't find it in a catalog I believe it's legit. If you search "Chaika watch images" you will find a couple of these included. It would be nice if the paperwork had the proper description and matching serial numbers, if it's possible to determine that.


----------



## schnurrp

Dub Rubb said:


> Thanks for all the info! I appreciate,and am learning something new every day on here.


Me, too!


----------



## Dub Rubb

Soooo. . . Pretty sure this is franken, I would just like to know the extent of it. The hands all look reproduction, and even komandirskie, AND I haven't a clue about the bezel. However, the case does appear to at least be stainless. It looks to be in too good of condition to be stamped cccp on the case and dial, but I am new to all this and maybe I got lucky. Any info would be greatly appreciated, and on the plus side, it keeps good time, and I think it looks good!


----------



## schnurrp

Dub Rubb said:


> Soooo. . . Pretty sure this is franken, I would just like to know the extent of it. The hands all look reproduction, and even komandirskie, AND I haven't a clue about the bezel. However, the case does appear to at least be stainless. It looks to be in too good of condition to be stamped cccp on the case and dial, but I am new to all this and maybe I got lucky. Any info would be greatly appreciated, and on the plus side, it keeps good time, and I think it looks good!


Yes, bezel and hands are reproductions (notice the "30" on the bezel is up-side-down). The dial is unusual and what appears to be fading of the red star may indicate age but the small flat brilliant white hour dots make me question. The back probably should be on the earlier type 119 "barrel" amphibian. All-in-all I would say a classic "franken" but not bad looking and if it keeps good time and you didn't pay too much for it, not the end of the world. Could serve as a parts watch for future use.


----------



## mariomart

schnurrp said:


> Yes, bezel and hands are reproductions (notice the "30" on the bezel is up-side-down). The dial is unusual and what appears to be fading of the red star may indicate age but the small flat brilliant white hour dots make me question. The back probably should be on the earlier type 119 "barrel" amphibian. All-in-all I would say a classic "franken" but not bad looking and if it keeps good time and you didn't pay too much for it, not the end of the world. Could serve as a parts watch for future use.


The dial is a franken as well. We discussed this dial quite some time ago, I think the give away is the rounded bottom of the indice at 12 o'clock.

Here is what a genuine "NOS" example looks like.


----------



## SennaGTS

How often is this one found in NOS condition, considering it's from the 80s I'm guessing?


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hey guys,

I wasn't really looking for it but I found this Sturmanksie. It is reaaally expensive but seems to be in great condition. I looked at some of the guides here on the forum about 17 jeweled Sturmanskie and this one seems to be good to my untrained eye.

This is the guide I used:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/everything-you-need-know-about-sturmanskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html

What do you guys think? Is it original?


----------



## Bostok

SennaGTS said:


> How often is this one found in NOS condition, considering it's from the 80s I'm guessing?
> 
> View attachment 12515433
> 
> 
> View attachment 12515435
> 
> 
> View attachment 12515439


A cadet with a similar (but different dial) if it's of any help:

wrist watch VOSTOK RUSSIA TEMPLE code9889 | eBay


----------



## bpmurray

Jeroenskie said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I wasn't really looking for it but I found this Sturmanksie. It is reaaally expensive but seems to be in great condition. I looked at some of the guides here on the forum about 17 jeweled Sturmanskie and this one seems to be good to my untrained eye.
> 
> This is the guide I used:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/everything-you-need-know-about-sturmanskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html
> 
> What do you guys think? Is it original?


Hi Jeroenskie,

That one looks good to me! The dial looks matte as it should for the 17j version; without dial removed photos, its impossible to see the edge to know if its correctly flat or beveled. The patina is correct for the age, and the lume looks correctly aged as well. The minute hand extending into the minute track matches with other known correct examples (Shturmanskie Gagarin. - Page 16). For your reading pleasure, here is a very lengthy thread that really dives into these beautiful watches: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/shturmanskie-gagarin-3988458.html

For a 17j version in that condition, the price is actually pretty fair. Recent eBay sales have been even more expensive, although data for 17j Sturmanskie's is somewhat limited. That particular seller has a good reputation as well, for what it's worth.

Good luck! Post photos after it arrives if you decide to buy it.


----------



## Jeroenskie

bpmurray said:


> Hi Jeroenskie,
> 
> That one looks good to me! The dial looks matte as it should for the 17j version; without dial removed photos, its impossible to see the edge to know if its correctly flat or beveled. The patina is correct for the age, and the lume looks correctly aged as well. The minute hand extending into the minute track matches with other known correct examples (Shturmanskie Gagarin. - Page 16). For your reading pleasure, here is a very lengthy thread that really dives into these beautiful watches: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/shturmanskie-gagarin-3988458.html
> 
> For a 17j version in that condition, the price is actually pretty fair. Recent eBay sales have been even more expensive, although data for 17j Sturmanskie's is somewhat limited. That particular seller has a good reputation as well, for what it's worth.
> 
> Good luck! Post photos after it arrives if you decide to buy it.


Thanks for looking at it! I think you're right about the price maybe a better way to put it is that its reaaally expensive to me haha. But it looks so good and it's such an iconic piece so I'm still debating. So thanks for the comments!


----------



## Jeroenskie

EDIT: Double post, sorry!


----------



## Dub Rubb

Well, I have another one for you guys. A hopefully less franken one. The hands look good to my untrained eye and the case back looks correct for the time. What do the experts think?


----------



## schnurrp

SennaGTS said:


> How often is this one found in NOS condition, considering it's from the 80s I'm guessing?
> 
> View attachment 12515433
> 
> 
> View attachment 12515435
> 
> 
> View attachment 12515439


If there is a scarcity of NOS examples of that one I would say it has more to do with the unusual dial than the age which, by the way, is more like late '80s early '90s, I think.

This one is pictured in the '90 Vostok catalog with an identical looking case with the distinctive gold case finish and chrome crown (doesn't appear to have a chrome bezel, however, unless it's just a lighting problem):


----------



## schnurrp

Dub Rubb said:


> Well, I have another one for you guys. A hopefully less franken one. The hands look good to my untrained eye and the case back looks correct for the time. What do the experts think?


Legit.  Very nice condition.


----------



## Neruda

Dub Rubb - TheBryansk Automobile Plantwas founded in 1958, so assuming your watch celebrates the 25th anniversary, it should date to 1983. Looks like a beautiful example!


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Legit.  Very nice condition.


Commissioned komandirskie with late'80s - early '90s Lada automobile dial, I think.


----------



## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> Dub Rubb - TheBryansk Automobile Plantwas founded in 1958, so assuming your watch celebrates the 25th anniversary, it should date to 1983. Looks like a beautiful example!


I like your research, comrade, except that bezel and case back is later than '83, I think; more like late '80s - early '90s.

Also wiki doesn't have them making any civilian automobiles.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I like your research, comrade, except that bezel and case back is later than '83, I think; more like late '80s - early '90s.
> 
> Also wiki doesn't have them making any civilian automobiles.


'83 catalog has some type 119 amphibians and some civil versions of the 2214 large "Chistopol" komandirskie but no dive-style komandirskies.


----------



## Dub Rubb

Thanks for the info guys! I believe the car in the dial is a Lada 2101 also known as the Vaz BA3 introduced in 1970. It was basically a russianized Fiat 124 and I remember them being picked on, but still loved on Top Gear. 

That would put the watch around 1995. It is still in remarkable condition though there is a tiny bit of cracking in the dial that can be seen in the right light.

If only my car knowledge and Keen eye for cars continued into the watch realm. 

Thanks again for all the info and good news comrades!


----------



## Neruda

Well I almost got there - second try could be *V*olzhsky *A*vtomobilny *Z*avod, the company behind Lada. Founded in 1966, so possible date for the watch would be 1991. This also fits with "made in CCCP" in the dial as the USSR folded at the end of 1991.


----------



## Dub Rubb

That makes perfect sense! Good knowledge on the origin of VAZ. I do think the Lada has a lot in common with Russian watches too. Tough, affordable sometimes questionable quality control and will just keep going. But very very Russian.


----------



## NuttySlack

Can I respectfully ask expert opinion on the legitimacy, or otherwise, of the watch in this listing? I have my suspicions.

USSR. SOVIET wristwatch ZIM for pilots. Military Design (1). | eBay


----------



## Dub Rubb

So, BEFORE I buy this watch, I would like to know what you guys thought about it's authenticity. I have had good luck from this seller before, and it looks good to me, but I would like a second opinion from the experts.

Thanks in advance comrades!


----------



## Dub Rubb

Or this one. I like this style of dial and they are about the same price point.


----------



## Neruda

Dub Rubb - the second example, a Komandirskie, has a caseback usually associated with export. There's some contemporary publicity showing that some models were sold in Italy by a company called Timetrend, but as the original labeling was in several languages, they may well have been sold in other European countries as well. However casebacks can easily be interchanged, and I don't think (not sure) that there is specific proof that this particular model was exported. Where is the seller located?

The first model, an Amphibian, has the movement marked SU but no "made in" on the dial. Possibly indicates it was made in the transition period c.1992. The lettering on the rocket has either faded or worn off.


----------



## Neruda

Any thoughts on this?

I find the small hands on the sub-dials a little strange, and the application of the "VII" just a little off. So, is this a factory Poljot, or perhaps assembled after the main factory stopped production?


----------



## schnurrp

NuttySlack said:


> Can I respectfully ask expert opinion on the legitimacy, or otherwise, of the watch in this listing? I have my suspicions.
> 
> USSR. SOVIET wristwatch ZIM for pilots. Military Design (1). | eBay


Not legit. Dial has been created and retrofitted.


----------



## Dub Rubb

Neruda said:


> Dub Rubb - the second example, a Komandirskie, has a caseback usually associated with export. There's some contemporary publicity showing that some models were sold in Italy by a company called Timetrend, but as the original labeling was in several languages, they may well have been sold in other European countries as well. However casebacks can easily be interchanged, and I don't think (not sure) that there is specific proof that this particular model was exported. Where is the seller located?
> 
> The first model, an Amphibian, has the movement marked SU but no "made in" on the dial. Possibly indicates it was made in the transition period c.1992. The lettering on the rocket has either faded or worn off.


Thanks for the info! The seller is located in Russia according to the mailing label on previous packages received from him. That would make the export part of what you said a little suspicious.

And I have heard about the whole transitional period making things a little tricky to date some of these watches.

I am intrigued by the first one because it is an amphibian, and the second one because of the different case back. If both seem legit enough, maybe I just get both lol!


----------



## mroatman

Dub Rubb said:


> So, BEFORE I buy this watch, I would like to know what you guys thought about it's authenticity. I have had good luck from this seller before, and it looks good to me, but I would like a second opinion from the experts.





Dub Rubb said:


> Or this one. I like this style of dial and they are about the same price point.





Neruda said:


> Dub Rubb - the second example, a Komandirskie, has a caseback usually associated with export.
> The first model, an Amphibian, has the movement marked SU but no "made in" on the dial.


I respectfully disagree with Neruda and would classify both these watches as "Generalskie" -- at least, this dial type is most commonly associated with them. A Generalskie can be thought of as an automatic Komandirskie. As such, it should have a chromed case (not steel), a painted bezel (not lumed), a case-back like so or like so (no Amphibian writing), and a simple/straight hour hand (not arrow).

Here are some examples of Generalskies, including the dial variation which interests you. These examples come from my collection and another respected collector here (I'm sorry, I forget who).

























If I am correct, then the first watch you present is not fully original. That or Amphibians actually had their own version of this "Vostok" dial that I was not aware of.

The second watch looks like a proper Generalskie and would make a nice purchase, in my opinion. The only question mark for me is that tan dot at the top of the bezel?


----------



## mroatman

^Oh, and I think the export case back is a-okay for a Generalskie.


----------



## Neruda

A quick google reveals that the same seller has two other "rocket" models (one for sale, the other sold) both in what I believe are Amphibian cases.




























Of course, all three may be incorrect - dials can easily be switched. But if (a big if, if you like) they are genuine, then it does suggest to me at least that the dial was used in Amphibians.

Although there are some rare and curious exceptions, I usually try to identify an Amphibian starting with the case and caseback. If the caseback says "Amphibian" it's a good start. The 
caseback will normally have two fixing lugs. The case will normally be steel, and not show wear through to chrome. Then a less than dogmatic look at the hands - the hour hand should usually be an arrow, and the crown which will usually be flat rather than domed. All three examples tick the majority of boxes - only the last has Komandirskie hands, but this is not a categorical reason for dismissal.

In practical terms the difference between a Komandirskie and an Amphibian is water-resistance - but also I imagine cost. I can't see why Vostok would make an Amphibian only to sell it off as a cheaper model.

As to the second model, I agree with Mroatman that a more precise name for the model might be Generalskie. However in this case I am using Komandirskie more generically, maybe I shouldn't! Vostok invented several names to market their Komandirskies. There are, for example, Artillery-skies and Cavalry-skies for the would-be soldier or Admiral-skies for the aspiring seaman. Some, such as the automatic Generalskie, have specific characteristics but others seem to be no more than a name on the dial.

I've seen quite a lot of export casebacks sold out of former Soviet countries, so obviously a lot never made it across the border. I also think that many citizens of the USSR believed export products were higher quality - so I suspect this (mis)conception was sometimes exploited for domestic sales.


----------



## mroatman

Neruda said:


> There are, for example, Artillery-skies and Cavalry-skies for the would-be soldier or Admiral-skies for the aspiring seaman. Some, such as the automatic Generalskie, have specific characteristics but others seem to be no more than a name on the dial.


As far as I am aware, Chistopol produced only four authentic USSR-era "skies": Komandirskie, Generalskie, Oficerskie, and Serjantskie. All have specific characteristics.









The others you've noted are post-Soviet, I believe, and are therefore unlikely to follow the same (or any) rules.

I'm hoping one of our resident Vostok ekpertz will jump in here to correct us


----------



## Neruda

Thanks , that explains a lot! Oh dear, that Serjantskie has made me quite weak at the knees...


----------



## Arizone

mroatman said:


> If I am correct, then the first watch you present is not fully original. That or Amphibians actually had their own version of this "Vostok" dial that I was not aware of.


Just like your Amphibian orange rocket, I think all of these models were quite diffused in configurations.


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> Just like your Amphibian orange rocket, I think all of these models were quite diffused in configurations.


That's an Amphibian!? Oh geez, I have no idea why I had convinced myself that case was chromed. Looks like I have some website reorganization to do.

So, only one legit case-type for Generalskie...?


----------



## Arizone

mroatman said:


> That's an Amphibian!? Oh geez, I have no idea why I had convinced myself that case was chromed. Looks like I have some website reorganization to do.
> 
> So, only one legit case-type for Generalskie...?


Is it?! I was taking a guess, but I didn't think the round case Komandirskie dated back that far.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> As far as I am aware, Chistopol produced only four authentic USSR-era "skies": Komandirskie, Generalskie, Oficerskie, and Serjantskie. All have specific characteristics.
> 
> View attachment 12520435
> 
> 
> The others you've noted are post-Soviet, I believe, and are therefore unlikely to follow the same (or any) rules.
> 
> I'm hoping one of our resident Vostok ekpertz will jump in here to correct us


You present a very detailed compilation, comrade, but I use to own one of these and it did have the arrow hand:


----------



## kev80e

All this has me a bit confused. I have two generalskie ones. I've always thought of them as amphibians. One has an arrow hand and o one doesn't.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> You present a very detailed compilation, comrade, but I use to own one of these and it did have the arrow hand:


Do you remember what the back looked like? Did it say "Amphibian" or something simpler like these (1, 2, 3, 4)?

My opinion (right now, tenuous at best) is that any Generalskies with Amphibian casebacks are constructions.



kev80e said:


> All this has me a bit confused. I have two generalskie ones. I've always thought of them as amphibians. One has an arrow hand and o one doesn't.


I think case material is key. If it's a chromed case, it's definitely, definitely not an Amphibian. And 99% of Generalskies have chromed cases (but maybe not all, as I'm beginning to realize).

Your left watch is "classic" Generalskie: Komandirskie hands, non-lumed bezel, automatic movement, and chromed case. Look at the color difference between the case and case-back:









But the watch on the right looks both like a legitimate Generalskie _and_ an Amphibian. Which is a head-scratcher.

I guess rules are made to be broken.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Do you remember what the back looked like? Did it say "Amphibian" or something simpler like these (1, 2, 3, 4)?


I searched a bit hoping to find a series of old pictures with no luck so far; but this goes back maybe 5 years and as I remember its authenticity was confirmed by Seele, et al, the authorities of that time. I will continue searching when I get the time (and motivation).

I think there tends to be confusion when identifying and classifying a particular watch type by what signed dials _usually _are found on it instead of physical characteristics. Just as there are what we consider amphibians with "komandirskie" signed dials, I don't see why there couldn't be amphibians with "generalskie" dials, perhaps like Kev's right hand example.

Anyone know if there's still a good link around for Seele, et al's amphibian case type pdf? None of mine work any more.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I searched a bit hoping to find a series of old pictures with no luck so far; but this goes back maybe 5 years and as I remember its authenticity was confirmed by Seele, et al, the authorities of that time. I will continue searching when I get the time (and motivation).
> 
> I think there tends to be confusion when identifying and classifying a particular watch type by what signed dials _usually _are found on it instead of physical characteristics. Just as there are what we consider amphibians with "komandirskie" signed dials, I don't see why there couldn't be amphibians with "generalskie" dials, perhaps like Kev's right hand example.
> 
> Anyone know if there's still a good link around for Seele, et al's amphibian case type pdf? None of mine work any more.


I've never seen a stainless steel Vostok dive-style case with crown guards, by the way.


----------



## schnurrp

From a series of pictures taken 9/20/12, almost five years ago to the day. I think the remaining unanswered question in my mind is whether the back was antimagnetic. Notice the dial color. How many soviet black scuba-dude dials have you seen?


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I think there tends to be confusion when identifying and classifying a particular watch type by what signed dials _usually _are found on it instead of physical characteristics. Just as there are what we consider amphibians with "komandirskie" signed dials, I don't see why there couldn't be amphibians with "generalskie" dials, perhaps like Kev's right hand example.


Yes, I think you're right here, and that's the most likely explanation to these "Generalskie" Amphibians we see.



schnurrp said:


> Anyone know if there's still a good link around for Seele, et al's amphibian case type pdf? None of mine work any more.


I have it but will have to email it to you because it's in PDF form (not online). In the document, this case is referred to as the 09x. Phil's watch is used as the reference (look familiar?):











schnurrp said:


> I think the remaining unanswered question in my mind is whether the back was antimagnetic.


No, not antimagnetic (1, 2, 3).



schnurrp said:


> I've never seen a stainless steel Vostok dive-style case with crown guards, by the way.


Ah yes, of course, another important feature.

So here are my compiled findings regarding Generalskies. I suppose these can't be "rules", as nothing is that firm in the Soviet watch world. But perhaps we should say "relatively firm principles".


Chrome case in one of two types:
Case type 09x which looks like an enlarged Komadirskie case with crown guard. Crown is usually rounded (1) but not always (2).
Case type 92x which looks like 420 case but is chromed (1, 2).

Simple, straight, Komandirskie hands (no arrow on hour hand)
Painted bezel with no lume
Case back in one of four general types (note that none have "Amphibian" lettering):
 "Waterproof / Automatic" written in English (1)
"Waterproof / Automatic" written in Cyrillic, with or without orca (1, 2)
"Watch & Clock Makers" export (1)
"Onion dome" export (1)

Caliber 21-jewel, 2416Б movement

Here are some more images I compiled for study.












































So, back to the three watches in question: mine, yours, and Kevin's.

- I believe mine is an original Generalskie using case-type 92x. The crown may be replaced(?).
- I believe yours is an original Generalskie with the exception perhaps of the hands. The arrowed, Amphibian-style hour hand doesn't fit with a Generalskie, and the lume doens't match the dial.
- I believe Kevin's is actually an Amphibia (pending confirmation that the case is steel) with a Generalskie-themed dial, like those Komandirskie Amphibians you mentioned before.

Whew. How far off am I?


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> Just like your Amphibian orange rocket, I think all of these models were quite diffused in configurations.





mroatman said:


> That's an Amphibian!? Oh geez, I have no idea why I had convinced myself that case was chromed.





Arizone said:


> Is it?! I was taking a guess, but I didn't think the round case Komandirskie dated back that far.


After looking closer, the case is definitely chrome. Compare the color of the case to the steel bracelet it's on ;-)


----------



## Dub Rubb

Okay, so I seemed to have sparked some debate about what constitutes a generalskie. But I have learned a lot from the discussion! From what we have all gathered, do my fellow comrades feel that this one is legit aside from the lume dot on the bezel?

Thanks for all the info!


----------



## kev80e

It seems I have some website reorganization to do too. Both mine are listed under amphibian but now obviously the scuba dude one is in fact a komandirskie but an automatic. 
The other one is actually a vremir and is a steel case and so an amphibian as indicated by the arrow hand. 








I also saw a discussion recently about the plastic case komandirskie, which actually isn't a komandirskie as its not waterproof so another one i have to move.
Dashiell any chance you could send me the amphibian and komandirskie pdf too , I lost mine when my old computer died.


----------



## schnurrp

More food for thought:


----------



## chien-andalou

Hi all,
the little voice has been bothering me lately about my most recent Amphibian...

hands should match the hour marks, yes, sooo is this a stylish franken or a rare exception?
Or am I missing something else entirely? :-s

Peter


----------



## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> Hi all,
> the little voice has been bothering me lately about my most recent Amphibian...
> hands should match the hour marks, yes, sooo is this a stylish franken or a rare exception?
> Or am I missing something else entirely? :-s
> Peter


Hey Peter --

Oh, but your hands _do_ match the hour marks. Both chrome. And as an added bonus, the hand lume matches the dial lume perfectly. So I'd say your watch is 100% legit, inside and out ?









Mine and the catalog for comparison (bezels varied for these watches):


----------



## mroatman

Dub Rubb said:


> From what we have all gathered, do my fellow comrades feel that this one is legit aside from the lume dot on the bezel?


In my opinion, yes, all legit with the one question mark being the lume pip on the bezel. But this could be original as well.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> The other one is actually a vremir and is a steel case and so an amphibian as indicated by the arrow hand.
> View attachment 12524139


Yeah, definitely an Amphibia. And as this is such a unique and special export variant, I'm not sure it's the best example to use for drawing far-reaching conclusions in any direction.



kev80e said:


> Dashiell any chance you could send me the amphibian and komandirskie pdf too , I lost mine when my old computer died.


Headed your way.


----------



## chien-andalou

mroatman said:


> Hey Peter --
> Oh, but your hands _do_ match the hour marks. Both chrome. And as an added bonus, the hand lume matches the dial lume perfectly. So I'd say your watch is 100% legit, inside and out 


great, thanks, glad to say the picture doesn't do the watch honour, as it looks much better in real life!

so I take it then, there are -generally speaking- at least two ways for the hands to match the colour of dial marks?
a) either with the separate lume dots or lines, or
b) with the colour embedded in the metal markers


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> More food for thought:


https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/franken-week-88091.html -- What's your point?

Just kidding.

But last one, in my opinion, is definitely a franken: Generalskie dial/hands in the wrong case. Plenty of these examples exist, they're not rare (1, 2, 3, 4). Perhaps an Amphibian version of this watch was _also_ made, but then I would expect an arrow hour hand, wouldn't you?

The Rising Sun is franken, too. Those black Amphibia hands have no business on that watch, in my opinion (1, 2, 3).

I'll admit the other three look at least potentially legitimate, but they all share the same black Amphibian hands, which sometimes look out of place. So maybe they're all from the same era in Chistopol history when any sort of regulation and quality control went out the window. Or maybe Ivan was having a rough day. Or maybe they're all franken. Who knows.

In the end, I would stress again that the features I listed could be considered "relatively firm principles" rather than hard-and-fast rules. I stand by my classifications thus far.

But keep the contrary evidence coming, and maybe we can refine some of our 'principles' ?

----

Edit: Oh, and speaking of looking out of place, have a closer look at this one. Silver/white indices paired with jet-black hands? Reeks of franken to me.


----------



## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> so I take it then, there are -generally speaking- at least two ways for the hands to match the colour of dial marks?
> a) either with the separate lume dots or lines, or
> b) with the colour embedded in the metal markers


I hope I'm not leading you astray -- this isn't any kind of "golden rule" in the Soviet watch world.

But as a general rule of thumb, yes, the hands should have _some_ correspondence to the hour markers. This could be in color, material, luminosity, or general style. It's one of the things that makes well-designed watches appear, well, well-designed.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> But last one, in my opinion, is definitely a franken: Generalskie dial/hands in the wrong case. Plenty of these examples exist, they're not rare (1, 2, 3, 4). Perhaps an Amphibian version of this watch was _also_ made, but then I would expect an arrow hour hand, wouldn't you?


The reason I included that one is that it has always been around in that form, an amphibian with that dial and straight hands (also straight second hand). There have been too many examples (this one in Michelle's collection, one of the most reliably authentic collections I've seen) over the years (I use to own one also) to be a franken, in my opinion, and I included it to illustrate that exceptions, at least to the hands, do exist.

So, your generalskie compilation based on case style and material, backs, movement seems to work but, as often happens with Russian watches, some little detail such as the hands may exist in a form that can't be explained and shouldn't be dismissed, off hand, as a "franken" necessarily. Our "expectations" aren't always fulfilled completely.

The Rising Sun "generalskie" was in your batch of pictured examples, by the way.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> The Rising Sun "generalskie" was in your batch of pictured examples, by the way.


Yes, I know, and I didn't mean to imply they were all perfect exemplars. A few have lumed bezels and flat crowns, too. But on the whole I think a pattern emerges.



schnurrp said:


> So, your generalskie compilation seems to work, but some little detail may exist that can't be explained and shouldn't be dismissed as a "franken" necessarily. Our expectations aren't always fulfilled completely.


Agreed. Principles, not rules ?


----------



## dmnc

Hi comrades,

What are your thoughts on this weird black big zero?

My understanding was that black big zeros should have silver hands but it surprises me that these ones seem to be the correct length and shape for a big zero despite being this white skeleton style.

A bit of searching around shows other examples that are the same but given how often this watch is frankenned that doesn't give me much confidence.

What do you think?










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## Luis965

So here are my compiled findings regarding Generalskies. I suppose these can't be "rules", as nothing is that firm in the Soviet watch world. But perhaps we should say "relatively firm principles".

Chrome case in one of two types:
Case type 09x which looks like an enlarged Komadirskie case with crown guard. Crown is usually rounded (1) but not always (2).
Case type 92x which looks like 420 case but is chromed (1, 2).

Simple, straight, Komandirskie hands (no arrow on hour hand)
Painted bezel with no lume
Case back in one of four general types (note that none have "Amphibian" lettering):
"Waterproof / Automatic" written in English (1)
"Waterproof / Automatic" written in Cyrillic, with or without orca (1, 2)
"Watch & Clock Makers" export (1)
"Onion dome" export (1)

Caliber 21-jewel, 2416Б movement

I agree with the majority of yor comments, but the I usually use Generalskie only for the 09X case. I use Komandirskie 92X for the round one (it is still produced today) as I use for example Komandirskie 52 (also with an automatic movement).

The back inscritions are common to basicly all the automatic Komandirskies, the caseback could have also the Imperial Eagle, not only the Orca.

GENERALSKIE:





KOMANDIRSKIE 92X:





KOMANDIRSKIE case 52:


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## cptwalker

Is this mayak authentic?









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## mroatman

dmnc said:


> Hi comrades,
> What are your thoughts on this weird black big zero?
> My understanding was that black big zeros should have silver hands but it surprises me that these ones seem to be the correct length and shape for a big zero despite being this white skeleton style.
> A bit of searching around shows other examples that are the same but given how often this watch is frankenned that doesn't give me much confidence.
> What do you think?


Go with your gut -- the skeleton hands are not correct. I would keep looking.


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## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> Is this mayak authentic?


I think so, yes.

The catalog and mine for comparison (my crown is replaced; the one for sale is correct).


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## MattBrace

schnurrp said:


> I've never seen a stainless steel Vostok dive-style case with crown guards, by the way.


Affectionately known as the "Lugs on the Bum Vostok"


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## XsiOn

Hi Comrades,

I just bought new watch. It was impulsive buy without any real analyze. I saw something similar once in Dashiell collection and I really liked it. But now I can see that case is a bit strange. Any ideas?

Collectible RUSSIAN USSR WATCH VOSTOK UNUSUAL CASE BLACK GEM DIAL

Thanks, Peter


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## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> Hi Comrades,
> I just bought new watch. It was impulsive buy without any real analyze. I saw something similar once in Dashiell collection and I really liked it. But now I can see that case is a bit strange. Any ideas?
> Collectible RUSSIAN USSR WATCH VOSTOK UNUSUAL CASE BLACK GEM DIAL
> Thanks, Peter


Hi Peter --

That case is definitely rare and unique, but unfortunately it's missing the lugs. Here is the original watch:









If you are creative or know someone with access to some basic tooling, I think you could create your own version of these lugs.

Or you could also just thread some heavy string/twine/leather through the hole and make a sort of bracelet from the watch.

Good luck!


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## armanh

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Possibly the ugliest Raketa 24 "mod" ever? Not sure what's going on with the silver gemstone-encrusted strap mounted on the shortened original (?) band. The cacophony of styles makes me cringe. Bonus extra red "CCCP" on the dial (in case you missed "Сделано в СССР" just above).


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## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



armanh said:


> Not sure what's going on with the silver gemstone-encrusted strap


Somebody's grandma, somewhere, would pay good money for this bracelet.


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## dutchassasin

XsiOn said:


> Hi Comrades,
> just bought new watch. It was impulsive buy without any real analyze. I saw something similar once in Dashiell collection and I really liked it. But now I can see that case is a bit strange. Any ideas?
> Thanks, Peter


When it arrives try to measure the diameter of the lug hole. Perhaps a set from the Poljot Basilika line fits. 
Or try to find it on esslinger / ofrei. I think its called something like: T-Bar Screw Lug 
POLJOT BASILIKA | Stege mit Schrauben für Armband montre russe russian watch | eBay
https://www.esslinger.com/watch-band-parts-imitation-gucci-style-lug-screw-refills


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## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> When it arrives try to measure the diameter of the lug hole. Perhaps a set from the Poljot Basilika line fits.
> Or try to find it on esslinger / ofrei. I think its called something like: T-Bar Screw Lug
> POLJOT BASILIKA | Stege mit Schrauben für Armband montre russe russian watch | eBay
> https://www.esslinger.com/watch-band-parts-imitation-gucci-style-lug-screw-refills


Brilliant.


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## Bostok

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



armanh said:


> Possibly the ugliest Raketa 24 "mod" ever? Not sure what's going on with the silver gemstone-encrusted strap mounted on the shortened original (?) band. The cacophony of styles makes me cringe. Bonus extra red "CCCP" on the dial (in case you missed "Сделано в СССР" just above).
> 
> View attachment 12531945
> 
> View attachment 12531947


Epic , the Hong Kong mention on the bracelet is a sure (bonus) value and wise addition to the whole package. Thanks for sharing :-!


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## XsiOn

dutchassasin said:


> When it arrives try to measure the diameter of the lug hole. Perhaps a set from the Poljot Basilika line fits.
> Or try to find it on esslinger / ofrei. I think its called something like: T-Bar Screw Lug
> POLJOT BASILIKA | Stege mit Schrauben für Armband montre russe russian watch | eBay
> https://www.esslinger.com/watch-band-parts-imitation-gucci-style-lug-screw-refills


Great idea and info! Thanks a lot!!


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## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

What do you think about this Poljot? I think the dial has been relumed because isn't the same colour as the lume in the hands.

Many thanks in advance









Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


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## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you?
> 
> What do you think about this Poljot? I think the dial has been relumed because isn't the same colour as the lume in the hands.
> 
> Many thanks in advance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


Case, bezel, and crown (maybe back) are from the earlier 30 jewel model, in my opinion. Good candidate for a reconstruction of a rare watch if the 30 jewel dial wasn't so hard to find. That 23 jewel dial looks too new. I believe Ruscamera had some dials available at one time, the authenticity of which I know not.


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## Straight_time

Fake dial. Sure the color is a good evidence, but also notice the font, specifically the letter "L" and the different sizes of "23" and "Jewels".


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## VWatchie

I decided I need a Cadet/Junior Vostok in my, so far very modest, collection. I kinda like this, but I ask myself why is it priced at about 50 % of all other Cadets I find on eBay, and I can't come up with an answer. So, I'm calling on the experts! Thanks!


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## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> Case, bezel, and crown (maybe back) are from the earlier 30 jewel model, in my opinion. Good candidate for a reconstruction of a rare watch if the 30 jewel dial wasn't so hard to find. That 23 jewel dial looks too new. I believe Ruscamera had some dials available at one time, the authenticity of which I know not.





Straight_time said:


> Fake dial. Sure the color is a good evidence, but also notice the font, specifically the letter "L" and the different sizes of "23" and "Jewels".
> 
> View attachment 12536537


Many many thanks comrades, if it is not all original, I will leave it for another occasion.

What do you think about this other, is already sold but I almost bought it.

Many thanks fellows










Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


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## mroatman

Victorv said:


> What do you think about this other, is already sold but I almost bought it.


That one looks legit to me.


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## Victorv

mroatman said:


> That one looks legit to me.


Many thanks fellow, It's a shame I could not buy it a few days ago, it's a lovely diver

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


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## VWatchie

24 Hours said:


> I decided I need a Cadet/Junior Vostok in my, so far very modest, collection. I kinda like this, but I ask myself why is it priced at about 50 % of all other Cadets I find on eBay, and I can't come up with an answer. So, I'm calling on the experts! Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 12536635


I guess as no one has replied, at least there's nothing that's obviously wrong with this watch. Thanks!


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## MattBrace

24 Hours said:


> I guess as no one has replied, at least there's nothing that's obviously wrong with this watch. Thanks!


Looks good to me from that picture.


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## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> I decided I need a Cadet/Junior Vostok in my, so far very modest, collection. I kinda like this, but I ask myself why is it priced at about 50 % of all other Cadets I find on eBay, and I can't come up with an answer. So, I'm calling on the experts! Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 12536635


Here's that dial and hands in the '93 catalog. I would question why yours doesn't have the place of manufacture at "6". Also has an old case back, I believe. I would have found it hard to pass up at that price but probably would have. I hope it runs good.


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## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Here's that dial and hands in the '93 catalog. I would question why yours doesn't have the place of manufacture at "6". Also has an old case back, I believe. I would have found it hard to pass up at that price but probably would have. I hope it runs good.
> 
> View attachment 12541087


Thank you!

I'm thinking that if I had access to all of these (wonderful) catalogs, I could spend the time trying to browse them myself instead of having to bother you, gurus, every time I find something that fascinates me (I always feel a bit ashamed when asking). Is there a (somewhat) comprehensive link list of Russian watch catalogs somewhere? It isn't easy to find these catalogs searching for them. I did find some of Raketa's catalogs here, but so far no luck with Vostok catalogs, not to mention the many other Russian watch brands.


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## mroatman

24 Hours said:


> Is there a (somewhat) comprehensive link list of Russian watch catalogs somewhere?


Look here:

Cataloghi Orologi Sovietici Russi Soviet Russian Watches Catalog Sowjetische Russische Uhren Katalog - cccp-forum.it
ÐšÐ°Ñ‚Ð°Ð»Ð¾Ð³Ð¸ Ñ‡Ð°Ñ�Ð¾Ð² Ð¡Ð¡Ð¡Ð. Ñ� 1934 Ð³Ð¾Ð´Ð° | ussr-watch.com

👍


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## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I'm thinking that if I had access to all of these (wonderful) catalogs, I could spend the time trying to browse them myself instead of having to bother you, gurus, every time I find something that fascinates me (I always feel a bit ashamed when asking). Is there a (somewhat) comprehensive link list of Russian watch catalogs somewhere? It isn't easy to find these catalogs searching for them. I did find some of Raketa's catalogs here, but so far no luck with Vostok catalogs, not to mention the many other Russian watch brands.


Glad to help, comrade.

Personally, finding and learning how to use the various Russian watch catalogs has been the single most important factor in improving the authenticity of my collection.


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## chien-andalou

a suspicious Poljot stadium / fish eye for your consideration and my education:


I see at least two concerns:
-English on dial but cyrillic for the days of the week?
-the hands: normally with the stripes-and-balls outer ring, the hands are not these ones with the centre ridge, but flat ones with a recessed centre part that is white, black (or even red ?) 


and many thanks to mroatman for those catalog links!

Peter


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## SennaGTS

Everything appears to be okay with this crab, I even like the look of the condition for its age. Hands and crown look to be fine, but I am no expert like everyone else is here!


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## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> a suspicious Poljot stadium / fish eye for your consideration and my education:
> I see at least two concerns:
> -English on dial but cyrillic for the days of the week?
> -the hands: normally with the stripes-and-balls outer ring, the hands are not these ones with the centre ridge, but flat ones with a recessed centre part that is white, black (or even red ?)
> and many thanks to mroatman for those catalog links!
> Peter


Good eye. This seller (azbukaua, if I recognize the photography) is a known purveyor of frankens and watches with repainted dials. There are occasionally good watches in the mix, but I would pass on this one.


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## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> Everything appears to be okay with this crab, I even like the look of the condition for its age. Hands and crown look to be fine, but I am no expert like everyone else is here!


Looks great, 100% original.

I like this seller -- he's a collector himself, so most of his items are genuine and often supported by catalog references.


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## kev80e

Not the watch this time but the strap. This strap was on another 3017 when it arrived but had some bits missing. Anyway as I've got small wrists I've managed to make it good and it fits me. 
Could this be an original strap ? It certainly fits it well, although a gap appears when it's on my wrist. This could be my fitting , or small wrists I'm not sure , it's fine on a cushion.
I'm not sure it will be staying on mine , but it is for today because it's a right little bugger to fit.


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## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Not the watch this time but the strap. This strap was on another 3017 when it arrived but had some bits missing. Anyway as I've got small wrists I've managed to make it good and it fits me.
> Could this be an original strap ?


Definitely seems (very, very) possible to me.


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## chien-andalou

mroatman said:


> This seller (azbukaua, if I recognize the photography)


this is unreal !!!

it is a privilege to put all these slightly ignorant questions out here, 
respect to all the generous experts for sharing


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## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Definitely seems (very, very) possible to me.
> 
> View attachment 12544197


That soon solved that one. Cheers Dashiell. Think mine will go back to the leather one though.


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## Neruda

What's this case? Is it genuine?
















Thanks!


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## Arizone

Neruda said:


> What's this case? Is it genuine?
> 
> View attachment 12544453
> 
> View attachment 12544455
> 
> 
> Thanks!


It's rare but original, affectionately called the "bottlecap".


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## mroatman

kev80e said:


> That soon solved that one. Cheers Dashiell. Think mine will go back to the leather one though.


Understandable, but definitely hold onto that original bracelet. It's a treasure in any condition!


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## NuttySlack

I just acquired a 17 jewel Poljot. It's in suspiciously good nick, but the thing that struck me was the missing second hand. I didn't notice this in the listing. I opened the back up and found a 2614.2H movement, again very clean.









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## VWatchie

I wouldn't mind owning this NOS Operation Desert Shield, but I have a few questions and a concern about it.







1. Is it legit?
2. Is $450 a reasonable price? If not, what would be? I feel it's a lot of money, and I'm not sure I'm ready to pay it even if it is reasonable.
3. The movement appears to be a 2416B (31 ruby jewels), but the oscillating weight says 21 jewels as do the case back. As far as I understand this doesn't pose a problem as the reversers' jewels weren't counted in those days, or they were steel rollers? Anyway, for $450 an authentic movement is an absolute requirement.

I must say, I really like that sand colored lume! 

Thanks!


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## schnurrp

NuttySlack said:


> I just acquired a 17 jewel Poljot. It's in suspiciously good nick, but the thing that struck me was the missing second hand. I didn't notice this in the listing. I opened the back up and found a 2614.2H movement, again very clean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


Just because a watch is in good condition does not mean it's not authentic. There are plenty of authentic Russian watches out there in very good to mint condition. On the other hand a seller may "construct" a watch using the best parts from several watches to arrive at something to sell. I don't know about yours. The second hand is obviously missing, which it should have. The case and dial combination is plausible but I would prefer to see the hour and minute hands taper slightly.

Look here for some help: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNTA8k72V6NBNtCVbYYBPPUdZIiPm7wtjGSZWTF


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## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> I wouldn't mind owning this NOS Operation Desert Shield, but I have a few questions and a concern about it.
> View attachment 12545745
> 
> 1. Is it legit?
> 2. Is $450 a reasonable price? If not, what would be? I feel it's a lot of money, and I'm not sure I'm ready to pay it even if it is reasonable.
> 3. The movement appears to be a 2416B (31 ruby jewels), but the oscillating weight says 21 jewels as do the case back. As far as I understand this doesn't pose a problem as the reversers' jewels weren't counted in those days, or they were steel rollers? Anyway, for $450 an authentic movement is an absolute requirement.
> 
> I must say, I really like that sand colored lume!
> 
> Thanks!


Looks entirely legit to me although the lume did not start out "sand" colored. That is a high price for that watch but if you're going to over-pay might as well be on a possible "NOS" example. Ironically, it can be easier to buy authentic and cheap from a seller who doesn't normally sell watches. In this case, I would make a low offer in an effort to get a negotiation going.


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## Neruda

Looks to me to be a very nice example of the original run of these, made for Timepeace the American company which commercialised these in the USA. However, the price in my opinion is pure speculation - maybe I'm out of date, but I feel that with patience you could pick up one for under US$200. From time to time examples turn up in the US which might have a stronger connection to the conflict. I don't think the original sales by Timepeace were the massive success they anticipated, and I suspect quite a lot were not even delivered to the States.

There are a lot of versions of the Desert Shield (and the small version, Desert Storm) which continued in production for at least 10 years in both manual and automatic formats. This example for example dates from 2001, but costs 135 euros: Rare VOSTOK OPERATION DESERT SHIELD WATCH cal.2446 Again, I'd say expensive for what it is.


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## mroatman

24 Hours said:


> 2. Is $450 a reasonable price?


It's impossible to say what the "right" price is, but in my opinion $450 is outrageously high. I would look for something well under half that cost.

This isn't a rare design -- maybe rare in that condition, but not impossible to find as Neruda points out.


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## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Looks entirely legit to me although _*the *__*lume*__* did not start out "sand" colored*_. That is a high price for that watch but if you're going to over-pay might as well be on a possible "NOS" example. Ironically, it can be easier to buy authentic and cheap from a seller who doesn't normally sell watches. In this case, I would make a low offer in an effort to get a negotiation going.


Thanks!

Are you sure about that? It was one of the things that really got me going! I am aware lume ages and changes in color, but I never saw another Vostok vintage dial having lume looking sand colored like that (which doesn't mean all that much as I'm not having a whole lot of experience). My guess is that it is indeed an intentional design of the dial, or do you deem that as out of question?


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Are you sure about that? It was one of the things that really got me going! I am aware lume ages and changes in color, but I never saw another Vostok vintage dial having lume looking sand colored like that (which doesn't mean all that much as I'm not having a whole lot of experience). My guess is that it is indeed an intentional design of the dial, or do you deem that as out of question?


I can just about guarantee that Vostok only had one lume color being put on amphibians of all types at that time and that was white. What you see there is discoloration due to age and maybe storage in a humid dusty environment.

Amphibian Vostok Desert Shield edition Automatic Soviet USSR Military watch | eBay


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## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I can just about guarantee that Vostok only had one lume color being put on amphibians of all types at that time and that was white. What you see there is discoloration due to age and maybe storage in a humid dusty environment.


Agree.


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## VWatchie

Neruda said:


> Looks to me to be a very nice example of the original run of these, made for Timepeace the American company which commercialised these in the USA. However, the price in my opinion is pure speculation - maybe I'm out of date, but I feel that with patience you could pick up one for under US$200. From time to time examples turn up in the US which might have a stronger connection to the conflict. I don't think the original sales by Timepeace were the massive success they anticipated, and I suspect quite a lot were not even delivered to the States.
> 
> There are a lot of versions of the Desert Shield (and the small version, Desert Storm) which continued in production for at least 10 years in both manual and automatic formats. This example for example dates from 2001, but costs 135 euros: Rare VOSTOK OPERATION DESERT SHIELD WATCH cal.2446 Again, I'd say expensive for what it is.


Thanks for the link! Anyway, I think I've looked at every desert storm/shield there currently is on eBay, but it's only the one I linked to that gets me going. The case back, the sand lumed dial dots, sand lumed Amphibia hands, the metal ring around the bezel pip, the "21 jewels" engraving on the oscillating weight, the fact it was manufactured for an American company, the certificate written in English... Anyway, I've made up my mind; I won't be paying $450 for it. Someone eventually will, but my guess is it will not be tomorrow.

It's not on auction and I can't make an offer, but I could always get in touch with the seller, offer him/her something decent and maybe refer to your posts.

Thanks, comrades!


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## VWatchie

Here's (as far as I can tell) an identical specimen of the watch on the National Watch & Clock Museum, and here's the specimen on eBay, both having "sand-colored" lume dots and hands, and they aren't the same specimen (different serial numbers). Can it really just be a coincidence? Well, I guess both could have been subjected to the same environment, but I doubt it, and then why don't we see more of this "sand-colored" lume on other vintage Amphibians from the time? What do you think comrades? Any change of mind?


----------



## mariomart

24 Hours said:


> Here's (as far as I can tell) an identical specimen of the watch on the National Watch & Clock Museum, and here's the specimen on eBay, both having "sand-colored" lume dots and hands, and they aren't the same specimen (different serial numbers). Can it really just be a coincidence? Well, I guess both could have been subjected to the same environment, but I doubt it, and then why don't we see more of this "sand-colored" lume on other vintage Amphibians from the time? What do you think comrades? Any change of mind?


Here's something that may help you in your quest https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/293...llery&ga_search_query=vostok&ref=sr_gallery_8


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## WZOLL

I'm no expert but to me the lume looks a little sloppy on the tip of the hour hand and the second hand. Quality control issue or a relume with "patina" lume? I think the lume is original but it's just an observation.


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## mroatman

24 Hours said:


> It's not on auction and I can't make an offer, but I could always get in touch with the seller, offer him/her something decent and maybe refer to your posts.


^ This is exactly what I'd do. But maybe don't reference this thread. If I were the seller, I wouldn't enjoy reading a bunch of little snot-nosed yuppy watch collector's opinions on MY price.

As for the lume, I wouldn't worry about it. If you love it, does it really matter if it's faded or original? I say get what you love


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## VWatchie

mariomart said:


> Here's something that may help you in your quest https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/293...llery&ga_search_query=vostok&ref=sr_gallery_8


Thanks, Mario! Had a look at it already yesterday and noticed the discoloration, the kind we're more used to see, but also sort of "sand-colored", I guess, but IMO nowhere near as sand colored as the two specimens I link to. Anyway, the version you link to, as well as the specimen that Neruda provided a link to, weren't made specifically for Timepeace. I suspect that Timepeace may have ordered their version with the "sand lume", the English case back, the English oscillating weight, etc., and the sand lume would make sense considering the theme of the watch "Operation *Desert *Shield".

Anyway, if I have the time I'll try to do some more research and see what I can come up with. I wouldn't be super surprised if I'm right about this, but I say that with humbleness.


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## VWatchie

mroatman said:


> ^ This is exactly what I'd do. But maybe don't reference this thread. If I were the seller, I wouldn't enjoy reading a bunch of little snot-nosed yuppy watch collector's opinions on MY price.
> 
> As for the lume, I wouldn't worry about it. If you love it, *does it really matter if it's faded or original*? I say get what you love


Well actually, in this case, I just think it would be very interesting to learn if the color of the lume was actually a part of the specification/order from Timepeace, and even so, I'm not sure I want it. I'm definitely not prepared to spend $450 for it. Yes, I know, our highly respected and appreciated experts have already passed their verdict (white!), which I really appreciate, but for some reason, I just can't put this to rest. ;-) Anyway, should I come up with anything decisive I'll let you know.


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## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Well actually, in this case, I just think it would be very interesting to learn if the color of the lume was actually a part of the specification/order from Timepeace, and even so, I'm not sure I want it. I'm definitely not prepared to spend $450 for it. Yes, I know, our highly respected and appreciated experts have already passed their verdict (white!), which I really appreciate, but for some reason, I just can't put this to rest. ;-) Anyway, should I come up with anything decisive I'll let you know.


My last word on this: soviet lume, despite its notorious lack of performance, was applied to their dive watches so that the hands and hour marks would glow in the dark, evidently, an important design consideration for any dive watch. This would imply the brightest white color would have been used, in my opinion.

The even degradation of the lume to a "sand" color on that Desert Storm model is a good sign that the watch has its original lume, nothing else.


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## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> ^ This is exactly what I'd do. But maybe don't reference this thread. If I were the seller, I wouldn't enjoy reading a bunch of little snot-nosed yuppy watch collector's opinions on MY price.
> 
> As for the lume, I wouldn't worry about it. If you love it, does it really matter if it's faded or original? I say get what you love


Exactly. You can always make an offer by sending it to the seller at "contact seller". I dare say I've bought as many this way as with the BIN function, when it exists. Nothing to lose.

I would wait a few weeks (it's gonna be there a long time at that price) when the seller may be a bit more receptive. Let the market tell him his price is too high.


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## VWatchie

I wrote a message to the seller to ask about the lume of this Timepeace Operation Desert Shield watch and he confirmed that the original lume color was "sand-colored" (a word I came up with). It's certainly not hard evidence, but I take it as pretty strong circumstantial evidence and find it very interesting. This is what he wrote and these are the images he attached. I hope you find it interesting too, and I hope you don't find my "obsession" too annoying! ;-)

_"I can say "__sand-colored__" __lume__ is a peculiarity of Series I Self-Winding Vostok Amphibian Desert Shield Export Watches. I attach photos of wristwatches of this Series I with various serial numbers used and stored in __different__ environment."























































_


----------



## Luis965

24 Hours said:


> _"I can say "__sand-colored__" __lume__ is a peculiarity of Series I Self-Winding Vostok Amphibian Desert Shield Export Watches. I attach photos of wristwatches of this Series I with various serial numbers used and stored in __different__ environment." _


_

Not true, see this model with the same sand color:

_


----------



## VWatchie

Lol965 said:


> Not true, see this model with the same sand color:


Wonderful bezel and I really like those lugs! What's the movement? Send me a PM if you'd like to sell it!

About the lume; As I understand it the "sand-colored" lume is only a feature of the "_Series I Self-Winding Vostok Amphibian Desert Shield Export Watches" _made for the American company _Timepeace Russian Watches Inc._by Vostok_. _You won't, among other things, find the Vostok logo on those dials. The lume on your watch looks like faded white, but that's me, and I'm aware that people can perceive color very differently.

Thanks for sharing!

EDIT: For anyone interested, here's a very interesting article about Timepeace Russian Watches Inc.


----------



## Bostok

Any thoughts on the authenticity/history of this Poljot (thanks to your help in the translation topic) model, I didn’t manage to find a similar model with this particular logo?


----------



## Avidfan

Hope this link works: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/vostok-amphibia

The lume on the watch in the clippings looks white to me and matches the white of the dial, sand-coloured lume I think is just down to ageing.



24 Hours said:


> _"I can say "__sand-colored__" __lume__ is a peculiarity of Series I Self-Winding Vostok Amphibian Desert Shield Export Watches. I attach photos of wristwatches of this Series I with various serial numbers used and stored in __different__ environment."
> _


----------



## mroatman

Bostok said:


> Any thoughts on the authenticity/history of this Poljot (thanks to your help in the translation topic) model, I didn't manage to find a similar model with this particular logo?


Probably the original watch had a different crown and a crystal with date magnifier.

Here's your watch in the 1960 catalog:









And in the 1970 catalog:









I believe this is the first model to ever use the name Полет on a wristwatch. In 1960, this would have preceded the name change from "First Moscow Watch Factory" to "Poljot".

I am aware of four variations:









See more images here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-paradox-2627562.html


----------



## schnurrp

I would just add that the Cyrillc script "flight" logo was stylized to represent a "sputnik" flashing by on top.


----------



## Haricosec

Hello,

I saw this Komandirskiye in a case 350. If you look carefully, the Lum on hand and minute marks is greener than on digits.
Is a legitimate or Franken-mate? Thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

Haricosec said:


> Hello,
> 
> I saw this Komandirskiye in a case 350. If you look carefully, the Lum on hand and minute marks is greener than on digits.
> Is a legitimate or Franken-mate? Thanks.


That dial and hands do not belong in a type 350 case. Not authentic.


----------



## Haricosec

schnurrp said:


> That dial and hands do not belong in a type 350 case. Not authentic.


 noted. Thanks.

Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

Haricosec said:


> Hello,
> 
> I saw this Komandirskiye in a case 350. If you look carefully, the Lum on hand and minute marks is greener than on digits.
> Is a legitimate or Franken-mate? Thanks.


In my opinion it's a complete franken.

It appears that a Komandirskie dial has been "refreshed", I've never seen a mismatch of lume before. The hands also have a different shade of lume, so all up 3 shades of lume sort of nails it as a franken.

The 350 case was never issued with a Komandirskie dial, and it was only ever issued with either paddle hands (300m version) or the necktie hands on the standard 200m version.

Also the bezel shown was normally only used on the later 119 cased Amphibia. however I've seen quite a few 350's sporting this bezel, but I'm still not convinced it was ever sold like that.


----------



## amil

Haricosec said:


> Hello,
> 
> I saw this Komandirskiye in a case 350. If you look carefully, the Lum on hand and minute marks is greener than on digits.
> Is a legitimate or Franken-mate? Thanks.


wostok,Ð'ÐžÐ¡Ð¢ÐžÐš wostok 0104 franken | eBay there in the title it is written that it is franken.


----------



## amil

del


----------



## mroatman

24 Hours said:


> I wrote a message to the seller to ask about the lume of this Timepeace Operation Desert Shield watch and he confirmed that the original lume color was "sand-colored" (a word I came up with). It's certainly not hard evidence, but I take it as pretty strong circumstantial evidence and find it very interesting. This is what he wrote and these are the images he attached. I hope you find it interesting too, and I hope you don't find my "obsession" too annoying! ;-)


Not sure what to make of it, but I thought I'd leave these images here:


----------



## pandy4

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hey all, I feel like a complete noob and would appreciate any info!

I bought a Poljot deluxe 23j 2209 off ebay but after browsing through this forum for hours, I'm worried it's not an authentic dial. Can anyone give me more information on this watch? And if it's not authentic, any tips for the future?





























Link to ebay pics

Thanks!!


----------



## Haricosec

amil said:


> wostok,Ð'ÐžÐ¡Ð¢ÐžÐš wostok 0104 franken | eBay there in the title it is written that it is franken.



7 times I'll flip my kb before posting

Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



pandy4 said:


> Hey all, I feel like a complete noob and would appreciate any info!
> 
> I bought a Poljot deluxe 23j 2209 off ebay but after browsing through this forum for hours, I'm worried it's not an authentic dial. Can anyone give me more information on this watch? And if it's not authentic, any tips for the future?
> 
> View attachment 12552075
> 
> View attachment 12552077
> 
> View attachment 12552079
> 
> View attachment 12552081
> 
> Link to ebay pics
> 
> Thanks!!


Okay, where to start. The dial is a reproduction. "Slashes" should have parallel sides with pointy ends; that one has curved sides. Further, if we accept the case is correct then the movement is too old and vice-versa. 
Also the case back should have parallel polishing marks for that movement; I can't make out what's on that one. Crown and crystal have been replaced. Hands look okay for a 2209 watch but which watch, I don't know.

Hope it runs well and you didn't pay too much. There are some good parts there.


----------



## sideways2

What he said 

If you are looking for that type of watch...this thread should help...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-de-lux-2209-a-3851594.html


----------



## VWatchie

mroatman said:


> Not sure what to make of it, but I thought I'd leave these images here:
> 
> View attachment 12551987
> 
> 
> View attachment 12551989


So, definitely a timepiece made for Timepeace Russian Watches Inc. A reflection I've made is that it's pretty common to see this dial on *non* Timepeace Russian Watches Inc. copies to be pretty badly faded (especially the stars and strips) but still having a, let's say, _whiteish_ lume. However, the Timepeace Russian Watches Inc. NOS copies often have non-faded, perfect dials where the lume is sort of redish/brownish. Maybe [email protected] could shed some true light on this if asked, or perhaps better yet, try to get in touch with the people at Timepeace Russian Watches Inc. (it seems the company still exists) to see what they possibly know about it.

BTW, just bought this Vostok (non Timepeace Russian Watches Inc.) Komandirskie and Cadet. Can't wait for them!


----------



## XsiOn

Hey guys.... is it just me or this second hand is wrong?


----------



## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> Hey guys.... is it just me or this second hand is wrong?


All three hands appear original, but all three seem to have been painted white (the lume slot of the hour/minute hands, and the body of the second hand). And maybe the lume pip on the second hand has been painted orange/pink.

So we could say original, but 'refreshed'.


----------



## pandy4

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> Okay, where to start. The dial is a reproduction. "Slashes" should have parallel sides with pointy ends; that one has curved sides. Further, if we accept the case is correct then the movement is too old and vice-versa.
> Also the case back should have parallel polishing marks for that movement; I can't make out what's on that one. Crown and crystal have been replaced. Hands look okay for a 2209 watch but which watch, I don't know.
> 
> Hope it runs well and you didn't pay too much. There are some good parts there.


Awesome, thank you for your help. It was around $65 but I think I'm going to get a refund, as it actually doesn't keep time too well. Ends up being about 5 minutes too fast in less than 24H, which is a bit annoying. I'm not sure if it's because the movement is old, or what.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



pandy4 said:


> Awesome, thank you for your help. It was around $65 but I think I'm going to get a refund, as it actually doesn't keep time too well. Ends up being about 5 minutes too fast in less than 24H, which is a bit annoying. I'm not sure if it's because the movement is old, or what.


Probably needs a service. I think with a little patience you could do better for that kind of money. I know it seems cumbersome but posting choices before buying is one way to maximize your chances of getting something authentic and at the right price.

Five minutes could probably be regulated out by nudging the regulating arm on the balance slightly with a wooden toothpick as shown below:


----------



## pandy4

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> Probably needs a service. I think with a little patience you could do better for that kind of money. I know it seems cumbersome but posting choices before buying is one way to maximize your chances of getting something authentic and at the right price.
> 
> Five minutes could probably be regulated out by nudging the regulating arm on the balance slightly with a wooden toothpick as shown below:
> 
> View attachment 12558405


Thanks so much for the info! Really appreciate it as someone with (clearly) very little expertise. I'm currently looking at poljot watches on ebay, could you tell me the difference between the 2209 movement and the 2409 movement? Is one more reliable than another?


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



pandy4 said:


> Thanks so much for the info! Really appreciate it as someone with (clearly) very little expertise. I'm currently looking at poljot watches on ebay, could you tell me the difference between the 2209 movement and the 2409 movement? Is one more reliable than another?


In my mind the workhorse Poljot 2409 is a more reliable movement. I'm not saying that the 2209 is unreliable just that a major design objective of the 2209 was to make a movement as thin as possible (the 2409 is 4.3 mm thick while the 2209 is 3.0 mm thick) to be put in the "ultra-slim" dress watches of the time, so there probably were some trade-offs that had to be made. It was reliable enough and since it was put in some of the most beautiful and elegant soviet watches of the time, millions were made and sold.

The thinnest movement ever produced by First Moscow was the 2200 a mere 1.85 mm thick, more than a millimeter thinner than the 2209, and so unreliable it was never really brought to market in any numbers. It remains a highly sought after collectible for Russian watch collectors.

Some 2409s in my collection:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PGeAgDP3099HM4u02

https://goo.gl/photos/MXV4C5xBJkHww5oN8

https://goo.gl/photos/PLsoCUHoRvbNEXyf9

https://goo.gl/photos/UZ2aCoBdtaX34Qgn7

https://goo.gl/photos/PpvCG167JtJQbfHC8


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> In my mind the workhorse Poljot 2409 is a more reliable movement. I'm not saying that the 2209 is unreliable just that a major design objective of the 2209 was to make a movement as thin as possible (the 2409 is 4.3 mm thick while the 2209 is 3.0 mm thick) to be put in the "ultra-slim" dress watches of the time, so there probably were some trade-offs that had to be made. It was reliable enough and since it was put in some of the most beautiful and elegant soviet watches of the time, millions were made and sold.
> 
> The thinnest movement ever produced by First Moscow was the 2200 a mere 1.85 mm thick, more than a millimeter thinner than the 2209, and so unreliable it was never really brought to market in any numbers. It remains a highly sought after collectible for Russian watch collectors.
> 
> Some 2409s in my collection:
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/PGeAgDP3099HM4u02
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/MXV4C5xBJkHww5oN8
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/PLsoCUHoRvbNEXyf9
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/UZ2aCoBdtaX34Qgn7
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/PpvCG167JtJQbfHC8


Wow, I truly enjoyed reading this post, learning more about soviet movements (my main interest) :-!, and the POLJOT (FLIGHT) is realy something! I would have loved to see the other watches too, but I can't get the links to work...:-s


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



24 Hours said:


> Wow, I truly enjoyed reading this post, learning more about soviet movements (my main interest) :-!, and the POLJOT (FLIGHT) is realy something! I would have loved to see the other watches too, but I can't get the links to work...:-s


Sorry the links won't work for you, comrade. Anyone else having a problem? They work for me, of course.

Try visiting my site by clicking on the "One Hundred Soviet Hours" at the bottom of the page and navigating to "First Moscow". They're all there and others, too.


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> Sorry the links won't work for you, comrade. Anyone else having a problem? They work for me, of course.
> 
> Try visiting *my site* by clicking on the "One Hundred Soviet Hours" at the bottom of the page and navigating to "First Moscow". They're all there and others, too.


_Amazing collection! _Recommend it (and mroatman's collection) to anyone who's even just remotely interested in Soviet watches! And as far as I understand it, to the best of your knowledge all watches in your collections are legit, right? Which makes them a great reference for shopping Soviet vintage watches. Thanks! :-!


----------



## pandy4

OK, after MANY hours on this forum and ebay, I think I found a poljot that looks fantastic, would suit my small wrists, has the original dial, and is under $100. Can I get any opinions on the authenticity of the watch? Thank you all!


----------



## schnurrp

pandy4 said:


> OK, after MANY hours on this forum and ebay, I think I found a poljot that looks fantastic, would suit my small wrists, has the original dial, and is under $100. Can I get any opinions on the authenticity of the watch? Thank you all!
> 
> View attachment 12561201
> View attachment 12561203
> View attachment 12561205
> View attachment 12561207


Authentic-lookng. Here it is in '70s catalog, center: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNtvVbcnmOwGXo8fQix_BMYDEKBxGt9km6kNADc.
I own the one on the bottom of the page: https://photos.app.goo.gl/JLPHeGnYUw8YYbIj2


----------



## pandy4

Thanks for your help, schnurrp. the google link doesn't work, unfortunately! weird.


----------



## XsiOn

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I cannot see it either schnurrp.

BR,
Peter


----------



## schnurrp

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jsJwWXFVaCkCCzmi2


----------



## Dub Rubb

What do we think about this watch? I am getting familiar with Vostoks, but have no idea what I am looking for elsewhere. Thanks in advance!









Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Dub Rubb said:


> What do we think about this watch? I am getting familiar with Vostoks, but have no idea what I am looking for elsewhere. Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


Authentic ZIM Pobeda from the '80s; crown looks a little big, may be a replacement


----------



## Dub Rubb

schnurrp said:


> Authentic ZIM Pobeda from the '80s; crown looks a little big, may be a replacement


Thank you! Are there any particular details to look for that distinguish the real from franken? Things to look for in future Zim purchases? Or are these not faked as often as Vostoks?

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

pandy4 said:


> OK, after MANY hours on this forum and ebay, I think I found a poljot that looks fantastic, would suit my small wrists, has the original dial, and is under $100. Can I get any opinions on the authenticity of the watch? Thank you all!


Looks good to me, but beware this is a very, very small watch. I like vintage watches (which are usually far smaller than modern watches), but even this is too small for me. Most would call it a ladies watch or a children's watch.

But it seems as though you've done your research, so I hope you enjoy it!


----------



## mroatman

Dub Rubb said:


> What do we think about this watch? I am getting familiar with Vostoks, but have no idea what I am looking for elsewhere. Thanks in advance!


Looks good to me (crown included). But as above, beware that this is a very small watch -- roughly child-sized.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Looks good to me, but beware this is a very, very small watch. I like vintage watches (which are usually far smaller than modern watches), but even this is too small for me. Most would call it a ladies watch or a children's watch.
> 
> But it seems as though you've done your research, so I hope you enjoy it!


I was actually surprised at how much I liked wearing my version and I didn't find it too small at 32mm. Wore it all day with pleasure but this is about as small as I care to wear.


----------



## chien-andalou

I bought this one without posting first: hands match the dial I'd say, case looks plausible at least, 
so, gentlemen, is there anything funny according to your valued expert eyes?

I'm not too crazy about this style of picture: definitely not close enough and either the lens is greasy or some filter is used. Hard to tell the condition of the crystal or dial.


----------



## schnurrp

chien-andalou said:


> I bought this one without posting first: hands match the dial I'd say, case looks plausible at least,
> so, gentlemen, is there anything funny according to your valued expert eyes?
> 
> I'm not too crazy about this style of picture: definitely not close enough and either the lens is greasy or some filter is used. Hard to tell the condition of the crystal or dial.


Good chance it's authentic. Similar to the one below from early '80s pictures. Still can't help but feel queasy when I see a gold and chrome mixed but commonly done by the soviets, evidently.


----------



## Neruda

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Any thoughts on this bezel and dial? Vostok movement and caseback seem correct. Thanks!


----------



## mailmanmgic

Hello Gentlemen, 
I bought this Amphibia from a local seller here in the Philippines, it just arrived today and cannot be more pleased with it. It truly is a beautiful piece. I've done plenty of research on Vostoks before pulling the trigger on this one but still have my doubts regarding its originality, so I go to the masters for advice. anything off-putting?


----------



## mariomart

mailmanmgic said:


> Hello Gentlemen,
> I bought this Amphibia from a local seller here in the Philippines, it just arrived today and cannot be more pleased with it. It truly is a beautiful piece. I've done plenty of research on Vostoks before pulling the trigger on this one but still have my doubts regarding its originality, so I go to the masters for advice. anything off-putting?


You have chosen well 

This is a Type 320 Vostok Amphibia from pre-1991. The dial is original and correct for the case type, the "12" is the correct faded orange. The hands are original and correct, the lume is sufficiently aged and matches the dial. The bezel is correct for the case and dial, and original (not reproduction). The crown is correct for the case.

Without being able to see the caseback or movement, you should find the caseback has the word "Amphibia" written Cyrillic, and upon opening the case you should find a soft metal (brass) shield covering the movement which provides the antimagnetic shielding as mentioned on the dial. The movement should be a manual wind Vostok 2409 with 17 Jewels.

Enjoy and wear it with a smile.


----------



## mariomart

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Neruda said:


> Any thoughts on this bezel and dial? Vostok movement and caseback seem correct. Thanks!
> View attachment 12566913


I'm not 100% certain, but if I were to hazard a guess I would say that the case and bezel are from either the "Vostok Century Time" or "Vostok Partner" series of 3rd party watch cases. I suggest that the Komandirskie dial, hands and movement were not originally sold with the case, however they appear to be genuine Vostok parts.


----------



## mailmanmgic

mariomart said:


> You have chosen well
> 
> This is a Type 320 Vostok Amphibia from pre-1991. The dial is original and correct for the case type, the "12" is the correct faded orange. The hands are original and correct, the lume is sufficiently aged and matches the dial. The bezel is correct for the case and dial, and original (not reproduction). The crown is correct for the case.
> 
> Without being able to see the caseback or movement, you should find the caseback has the word "Amphibia" written Cyrillic, and upon opening the case you should find a soft metal (brass) shield covering the movement which provides the antimagnetic shielding as mentioned on the dial. The movement should be a manual wind Vostok 2409 with 17 Jewels.
> 
> Enjoy and wear it with a smile.


Wonderful news! thank you, will definitely spend quality time on my wrist.


----------



## mariomart

mailmanmgic said:


> Wonderful news! thank you, will definitely spend quality time on my wrist.


I also should mention "Welcome to f10 the Russian watch forum" 

I look forward to seeing your collection grow.

Cheers, Mario


----------



## mariomart

mailmanmgic said:


> Wonderful news! thank you, will definitely spend quality time on my wrist.


And here is a scan of the Tento Vostok catalog from 1990.

Don't be concerned about the bezel shown, as the Type 320 was also sold with the black bezel you have shown on yours.


----------



## Pentona

How about this Poljot?


----------



## schnurrp

Pentona said:


> How about this Poljot?
> 
> View attachment 12567695


I would say there's at least a 75% probability that it's authentic but it is not in the '83 catalog I use which is the first time the 23 jewel automatics show up and there's a 9 year gap in the Poljot catalogs that are available to me and it's not in the '92 catalog. So it's from the '80s is about all I can say and it looks authentic. If you're getting it for a good price and/or you just like it it may be worth buying but I tend to be a stickler and if I can't find it in a catalog I pass knowing that there are plenty others out there that can be authenticated.


----------



## mroatman

24 Hours said:


> So, definitely a timepiece made for Timepeace Russian Watches Inc. A reflection I've made is that it's pretty common to see this dial on *non* Timepeace Russian Watches Inc. copies to be pretty badly faded (especially the stars and strips) but still having a, let's say, _whiteish_ lume. However, the Timepeace Russian Watches Inc. NOS copies often have non-faded, perfect dials where the lume is sort of redish/brownish. Maybe [email protected] could shed some true light on this if asked, or perhaps better yet, try to get in touch with the people at Timepeace Russian Watches Inc. (it seems the company still exists) to see what they possibly know about it.
> BTW, just bought this Vostok (non Timepeace Russian Watches Inc.) Komandirskie and Cadet. Can't wait for them!


Another piece of evidence: wostok. wostok, vostok. восток 100

The hands are obviously wrong, but the dial may offer some details.


----------



## mailmanmgic

mariomart said:


> mailmanmgic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderful news! thank you, will definitely spend quality time on my wrist.
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a scan of the Tento Vostok catalog from 1990.
> 
> Don't be concerned about the bezel shown, as the Type 320 was also sold with the black bezel you have shown on yours.
> 
> [iurl="https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12567141&stc=1&d=1507562438"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/iurl]
Click to expand...

Hi Mario, as you've said and as per the brochure it says the watch is equipped with a 2409 movement. The seller claims it has a 2209 movement, please help me out of this confusion, here is a picture of the movement. Thank you so much


----------



## schnurrp

2409


----------



## mroatman

mailmanmgic said:


> Hi Mario, as you've said and as per the brochure it says the watch is equipped with a 2409 movement. The seller claims it has a 2209 movement, please help me out of this confusion, here is a picture of the movement. Thank you so much


Seller is wrong, it's a 2409, all is well.


----------



## pandy4

mroatman said:


> Looks good to me, but beware this is a very, very small watch. I like vintage watches (which are usually far smaller than modern watches), but even this is too small for me. Most would call it a ladies watch or a children's watch.
> 
> But it seems as though you've done your research, so I hope you enjoy it!


Thanks! I think the size will be perfect for me. I have about a 5.5" wrist, which is why I like vintage watches :-d


----------



## sideways2

pandy4 said:


> Thanks! I think the size will be perfect for me. I have about a 5.5" wrist, which is why I like vintage watches :-d


Same size as my boy and he has a Sekonda and a Luch now


----------



## VWatchie

Just negotiated a decent price (I believe) for this eBay Komandirskie.









I'm pretty sure it's legit, but I'm not so sure about the hands Most (if not all) other examples that I've seen with this case and "golden" dial have also had "_golden hands_", but not this watch which has black hands. I think the black hands go very well with this dial, but it would be interesting to know if they are the original hands. So, what do you think?


----------



## XsiOn

dutchassasin said:


> When it arrives try to measure the diameter of the lug hole. Perhaps a set from the Poljot Basilika line fits.
> Or try to find it on esslinger / ofrei. I think its called something like: T-Bar Screw Lug
> POLJOT BASILIKA | Stege mit Schrauben für Armband montre russe russian watch | eBay
> https://www.esslinger.com/watch-band-parts-imitation-gucci-style-lug-screw-refills


Hi friends,

Thanks to dutchassasin I bought myself a pair of really nice T-Bars (18 and 20 mm) they both fit perfect. My problem now is where to find a band. The one for basilica has to big hole in the middle... Any Ideas?


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Just negotiated a decent price (I believe) for this eBay Komandirskie.
> 
> View attachment 12589935
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's legit, but I'm not so sure about the hands Most (if not all) other examples that I've seen with this case and "golden" dial have also had "_golden hands_", but not this watch which has black hands. I think the black hands go very well with this dial, but it would be interesting to know if they are the original hands. So, what do you think?


I assume you know they are black, comrade, because plated hands can often look black due to the angle of lighting. Under magnification the hands aren't as black as the Vostok "B" on the dial:









I did not see a single set of hands in Michelle's extensive collection that I would definitely say were black while many with light dials had plated hands.


----------



## Uros TSI

How about this one? The hand look odd to me.









Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Uros TSI said:


> How about this one? The hand look odd to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Hands look okay and go with that dial. The problem is that that dial is newer than the movement and I would guess someone had an older 2809 in a gold case with that movement that needed a dial/hands and voila!

Here's mine, usually found in the catalog as a 2809A, circa 1968-70:


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Hands look okay and go with that dial. The problem is that that dial is newer than the movement and I would guess someone had an older 2809 in a gold case with that movement that needed a dial/hands and voila!
> 
> Here's mine, usually found in the catalog as a 2809A, circa 1968-70:
> 
> 
> View attachment 12590629


Whoa! Sorry, comrades, that's a different dial. I believe the story could remain the same but I can't vouch for that dial/hand combination which is close but not identical to mine. Will have to research.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Whoa! Sorry, comrades, that's a different dial. I believe the story could remain the same but I can't vouch for that dial/hand combination which is close but not identical to mine. Will have to research.


Can't authenticate that dial/hand combination but I'm pretty comfortable saying the dial is not old enough to go with that movement due to the "Boctok" branding.


----------



## armanh

Hi guys and gals,

Opinions on this Okean? A great deal just popped up on this, but wanna be sure before pulling the trigger. Everything looks OK to my untrained eyes, but I've been fooled before.


----------



## schnurrp

armanh said:


> Hi guys and gals,
> 
> Opinions on this Okean? A great deal just popped up on this, but wanna be sure before pulling the trigger. Everything looks OK to my untrained eyes, but I've been fooled before.
> 
> View attachment 12591393
> 
> View attachment 12591395
> 
> View attachment 12591397
> 
> View attachment 12591399
> 
> View attachment 12591401
> 
> View attachment 12591403


That "shturmanskie" (not okeah) should have blue hands and the picture quality is not good enough for me to conclude the case and crowns are stainless. Looks like some brassing. Would also need a movement picture unless the price is so low as to be worth the trouble.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> I assume you know they are black, comrade, because plated hands can often look black due to the angle of lighting. Under magnification the hands aren't as black as the Vostok "B" on the dial:
> 
> View attachment 12590577
> 
> 
> I did not see a single set of hands in Michelle's extensive collection that I would definitely say were black while many with light dials had plated hands.


Thank you very much for your input! :-!

Wow, very observant comrade, and I'm sure you're right! No, I do not know that the hands are black, that was just an assumption on my part which I didn't question for a second :-(.

Look at this picture of the same watch and it's even less clear that the hands are black. More likely they are indeed gilded/plated. BTW, I paid $40 _including_ shipping. Probably not a bargain, but probably, and hopefully, not too much either!?


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Thank you very much for your input! :-!
> 
> Wow, very observant comrade, and I'm sure you're right! No, I do not know that the hands are black, that was just an assumption on my part which I didn't question for a second :-(.
> 
> Look at this picture of the same watch and it's even less clear that the hands are black. More likely they are indeed gilded/plated. BTW, I paid $40 _including_ shipping. Probably not a bargain, but probably, and hopefully, not too much either!?
> 
> View attachment 12591851


Yes, I believe black hands should appear at least as black as the printing on the dial. I think that's a good price for that, particularly if it's running well, which I hope it is.


----------



## mroatman

armanh said:


> Hi guys and gals,
> Opinions on this Okean? A great deal just popped up on this, but wanna be sure before pulling the trigger. Everything looks OK to my untrained eyes, but I've been fooled before.





schnurrp said:


> That "shturmanskie" (not okeah) should have blue hands and the picture quality is not good enough for me to conclude the case and crowns are stainless. Looks like some brassing. Would also need a movement picture unless the price is so low as to be worth the trouble.


Yeah, looks kinda frankie to me 😬😔

I wouldn't buy without a movement photo.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Yes, I believe black hands should appear at least as black as the printing on the dial. I think that's a good price for that, _particularly if it's running well,_ which I hope it is.


Well, that remains to be seen, and if it doesn't I'll try to make it run well. Practicing servicing my first 2414A now, so this would be my second. From what I found so far - and if I'm correct in my assumptions which I'm trying to get verified here - not all parts are interchangeable between the 2409 and the 2414A movements. So, if you or anyone else know for sure, your input would be more than welcome!


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Well, that remains to be seen, and if it doesn't I'll try to make it run well. Practicing servicing my first 2414A now, so this would be my second. From what I found so far - and if I'm correct in my assumptions which I'm trying to get verified here - not all parts are interchangeable between the 2409 and the 2414A movements. So, if you or anyone else know for sure, your input would be more than welcome!


You are right about the only parts not interchangeable.

You are wasting your time trying to salvage those hands with the lume in place. Remove the old lume, clean the hands, and re-lume with some off-white paint or any color you want since no other lume on the watch is still active. I have had some success cleaning dirt and corrosion using a q-tip and some red rouge. You have to be careful or you will remove the plating, though. It's very difficult to get a good outcome when trying to restore hands that far gone. They're never going to look that good but you can clean them up. Obvious defects such as pitting and plating loss will remain but at least they will be clean.


----------



## Dub Rubb

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

What do my fellow comrades think about this one? The hands look right to me for a komandirskie, as does the acrylic, but the amphibian caseback has me thrown off.

I can't really tell the thickness of the glass from the pictures, but the case seems to be stainless as well.

Do you guys think this is an amphibian, komandirskie, or franken? Thanks in advance comrades, you guys are the best! Also, I don't see any "made in" text on the dial.









Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Dub Rubb said:


> What do my fellow comrades think about this one? The hands look right to me for a komandirskie, as does the acrylic, but the amphibian caseback has me thrown off.
> 
> I can't really tell the thickness of the glass from the pictures, but the case seems to be stainless as well.
> 
> Do you guys think this is an amphibian, komandirskie, or franken? Thanks in advance comrades, you guys are the best! Also, I don't see any "made in" text on the dial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


Interesting! A "komandirskie" dial in what looks like a type 420 amphibian case. Movement is stated as "automatic" on the back. Black hands like that are rarely, if ever, seen on a komandirskie. A classic "parts watch" from the turbulent early '90s? Impossible to say anything about "authenticity" unless an original buyer of the same watch responds to this thread....

Interesting cocked numerals and unusual minute track.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Interesting! A "komandirskie" dial in what looks like a type 420 amphibian case. Movement is stated as "automatic" on the back. Black hands like that are rarely, if ever, seen on a komandirskie. A classic "parts watch" from the turbulent early '90s? Impossible to say anything about "authenticity" unless an original buyer of the same watch responds to this thread....
> 
> Interesting cocked numerals and unusual minute track.


Similar type as this one from Michelle's collection without the lume pip on the bezel:









Forgot to mention the lack of jewel count which is unusual and inhibits authentication further.


----------



## Avidfan

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Interesting! A "komandirskie" dial in what looks like a type 420 amphibian case.


Doesn't look like a 420 case to me (unless they've changed the case shape over the years)?


----------



## sideways2

_deleted_


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Avidfan said:


> Doesn't look like a 420 case to me (unless they've changed the case shape over the years)?


Oh, you are right, comrade, flat at the crown area. Not sure what that is, then.


----------



## Avidfan

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Oh, you are right, comrade, flat at the crown area. Not sure what that is, then.


That makes two of us then!


----------



## MattBrace

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Oh, you are right, comrade, flat at the crown area. Not sure what that is, then.


The case type is a 270 found with either a 2414,2409 or 2416b movement. Not sure on the dial case combination its in that good old "Transitional Period" again!


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> _*You are right about the only parts not interchangeable.*_
> 
> You are wasting your time trying to salvage those hands with the lume in place. Remove the old lume, clean the hands, and re-lume with some off-white paint or any color you want since no other lume on the watch is still active. I have had some success cleaning dirt and corrosion using a q-tip and some red rouge. You have to be careful or you will remove the plating, though. It's very difficult to get a good outcome when trying to restore hands that far gone. They're never going to look that good but you can clean them up. Obvious defects such as pitting and plating loss will remain but at least they will be clean.


Thank you very much for confirming this, and I've spread the word to anyone interested!

I will try to follow your advice about the hands, thank you very much, and I'll try to publish a picture once I'm done! If I fail I will simply replace the hands. I guess it still holds true that it's only Meranom's SE Amphibians that don't take standard Vostok minute and seconds hands, right? Had some problem with that a while back (story here).


----------



## Sansoni7

Is this one original?

https://www.olx.pl/i2/oferta/aviator-poljot-CID87-IDm4Hym.html#:b8032a9f67

Tks


----------



## Neruda

Sansoni7 - I'm not 100% certain, but I think NOT. At least, I see problems with it.

Poljot started this line in the early 1990s, but by 2000 the company was in grave financial difficulties. Around 2005 Poljot sold most of their equipment. Ex-employees formed several companies to continue making and selling Poljots, one such operation was Volmax which continued in Russia until about 2010 before relocating to Switzerland. Both Poljot and Volmax produced Aviator watches, so if genuine which made yours.

I believe this is a genuine Poljot era Aviator:







More photos of this watch at Poljot Aviator On the dial, note the Poljot logo under 12 o'clock and the Aviator brand above 6 o'clock. Note also "Russia" under 12 o'clock. Compare the hands and the lume.

The wings logo on your example does appear on the later Volmax Aviators - but in this case, why the Poljot instruction manual? Two other important details are suspect. The movement is marked SU, suggesting it was made during the Soviet Union period or shortly afterwards (Poljot 3133 movements continued to be marked SU up to about 1995). So, if this is a post-Poljot Aviator made by Volmax, the movement seems highly improbable - for me this is the deal-breaker. The exhibition caseback is certainly not original - nothing definitive here though as these can often be replaced. Blue second hands were indeed used by Poljot around the 2000 period on some Aviator models, but also appear on many copies.

Finally compare your watch to Aviator manual winding military style wrist watch Poljot cal. 2614.2H | eBay The seller is being reasonably honest in dating the year of production to approx 2011 - but also giving the game away. Poljot were out of the running by 2005 and Volmax were by then largely if not completely based in Switzerland. It comes with the same instruction booklet which clearly cannot be correct at this date. Coincidentally this seller is from the Ukraine, but offering the watch in Poland.


----------



## armanh

schnurrp said:


> That "shturmanskie" (not okeah) should have blue hands and the picture quality is not good enough for me to conclude the case and crowns are stainless. Looks like some brassing. Would also need a movement picture unless the price is so low as to be worth the trouble.





mroatman said:


> Yeah, looks kinda frankie to me. I wouldn't buy without a movement photo.


Hello again guys,

Here are the movement pictures:






























I compared this to Mark Gordon's version, and they look like a 1:1 match. The seller assures me the watch is all original. Still no good?

Seller's watch:








Mark Gordon's version:


----------



## schnurrp

armanh said:


> Hello again guys,
> 
> Here are the movement pictures:
> 
> View attachment 12597771
> 
> View attachment 12597773
> 
> View attachment 12597775
> 
> View attachment 12597777
> 
> 
> I compared this to Mark Gordon's version, and they look like a 1:1 match. The seller assures me the watch is all original. Still no good?
> 
> Seller's watch:
> View attachment 12597779
> 
> 
> Mark Gordon's version:
> View attachment 12597769


Notice that Mark's example has blue hands. This is the authentic hand set so from that standpoint alone I believe it's not authentic. The movement looks okay with a couple of steel chrono wheels indicating an older movement. If you can establish that the case, crowns, and pushers are stainless steel and you can locate a set of authentic hands like these from ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/USSR-spare...842228?hash=item41cd83d0f4:g:fL8AAOSw241YXNSb, and the price is low enough to allow you to buy replacement hands, then it may be worth it. Otherwise, it's better to keep looking.

How low is the price?


----------



## armanh

schnurrp said:


> Notice that Mark's example has blue hands. This is the authentic hand set so from that standpoint alone I believe it's not authentic.


Is it possible the hands were discolored over time? Or that there was a version produced with silver hands?



schnurrp said:


> How low is the price?


$130, and everything else I've seen is in the $220-$250 range.


----------



## Sansoni7

Hi *neruda*
Thank you very much for your help.
Regards ;-)


----------



## schnurrp

armanh said:


> Is it possible the hands were discolored over time? Or that there was a version produced with silver hands?
> 
> $130, and everything else I've seen is in the $220-$250 range.


That would be tempting if it's stainless and it's working right. Hands on the Okeah are nickel-plated, sturmanskie blue.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

The seller sent me some photos of Vostok Precision. 
I show them below. Is it original?
Thank you very much.


----------



## pechamuha

Guys , I am new to Russian watches. I saw this watch in eBay some days ago. Can you please tell me if it's authentic or a Frankenstein?









Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

armanh said:


> Is it possible the hands were discolored over time? Or that there was a version produced with silver hands?


Blued hands are a unique and important feature of this model, in my opinion. I would not buy without -- or would have replacements lined up in advance, as schnurrp suggests.



Lucky_Luke said:


> The seller sent me some photos of Vostok Precision.
> I show them below. Is it original?
> Thank you very much.


Looks good to me: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5814461004761592386&oid=113098239036073221216



Mrutyunjaya Gadanayak said:


> Guys , I am new to Russian watches. I saw this watch in eBay some days ago. Can you please tell me if it's authentic or a Frankenstein?


I was leaning toward authentic, but a brief search of the '83 catalog shows one in a different case: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5698170182309013666&oid=113098239036073221216. To be honest, I didn't look very hard, and still lean toward authentic.


----------



## Luis965

Lucky_Luke said:


> The seller sent me some photos of Vostok Precision.
> I show them below. Is it original?
> Thank you very much.


Original export version, correct dial and movement (marked 2809) for a Precision Vostok.

I was interrupted while answering, if you have the approval of Dashiell everything is certainly ok.


----------



## mroatman

mroatman said:


> I was leaning toward authentic, but a brief search of the '83 catalog shows one in a different case: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5698170182309013666&oid=113098239036073221216. To be honest, I didn't look very hard, and still lean toward authentic.


Oh yeah, here we go: 1975 catalog. If they produced these in gold, surely they were also made in chrome. I vote legit.


----------



## pechamuha

Thanks for the replay guys, this was the 1st time I saw that model and could not find anything like that from Google image search. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Oh yeah, here we go: 1975 catalog. If they produced these in gold, surely they were also made in chrome. I vote legit.
> 
> View attachment 12601705


Hands on bottom one are longer, too, like OP's. '83 catalog showed shorter hands.


----------



## schnurrp

Lol965 said:


> Original export version, correct dial and movement (marked 2809) for a Precision Vostok.
> 
> I was interrupted while answering, if you have the approval of Dashiell everything is certainly ok.


Case is different from '70s catalog model but I have a big gap, all the way back to 1960, in catalogs. Have to believe that dial/hands/movement was made with the curved lug case.

Also if a seller is ever to be trusted to get it right, that's the one, in my opinion. Still always: "Trust, but verify".


----------



## pechamuha

schnurrp said:


> Hands on bottom one are longer, too, like OP's. '83 catalog showed shorter hands.


Any way to find our when the watch was built?

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Mrutyunjaya Gadanayak said:


> Any way to find our when the watch was built?
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


On some older soviet watches the movement had a date stamp that told the year and quarter it was made so that if you are sure the movement belongs in the watch you can tell within 3 months. Otherwise you are left with sales information such as receipt papers, original owner statements, etc., which if believable will date the watch. Or sometimes a dated inscription is found on the back of the watch.

Otherwise, it's a matter of trying to find the watch in the old catalogs and get a broader picture of date of build.

There is no foolproof method for use on all watches.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> On some older soviet watches the movement had a date stamp that told the year and quarter it was made so that if you are sure the movement belongs in the watch you can tell within 3 months. Otherwise you are left with sales information such as receipt papers, original owner statements, etc., which if believable will date the watch. Or sometimes a dated inscription is found on the back of the watch.
> 
> Otherwise, it's a matter of trying to find the watch in the old catalogs and get a broader picture of date of build.
> 
> There is no foolproof method for use on all watches.


I would describe that one as "from the '80s".


----------



## Danilao

What about this dial?









are these the right hands?

Grazie!


----------



## mroatman

Danilao said:


> What about this dial?
> are these the right hands?
> Grazie!


The dial looks fine, but the chrono hand has broken its 'tail', and the crown is incorrect.


----------



## VWatchie

This "Vostok Komandirskie Gagarin" looks sort of legit to me, but I'd sure appreciate if someone could tell me for sure. I do feel a bit suspicious; called "Komandirskie", but has Amphibian case(?), case back and hands.


----------



## mariomart

24 Hours said:


> This "Vostok Komandirskie Gagarin" looks legit to me, but I'd sure appreciate if someone could tell me for sure.


This is an interesting one.

Straight up I can tell you that the hands are modern replacements.

Now the dial is a little confusing. My gut feeling is that it is a modern reproduction, the reason I give is that the helmet lacks a little detail and overall the black lines in the graphic appear a little too heavy in their thickness and application. The other detail is that the lume dots appear too small and the colour is not quite right. At best it might have been re-lumed, as the bezel dot looks "off".

I'm not sure if this dial was sold in the Vostok Type 320 Amphibian case, I've seen it more often in the Vostok Type 020 Amphibian case.

Overall, as I said earlier, my gut feeling is that it's a mish-mash of old and modern reproduction parts.

Hopefully others will chime in with their take.

Edit. I just had a look at what other watches the seller has available and I see that they have many, many fantasy watches with "fake" dials, so it strengthens my feeling that the dial is a reproduction.


----------



## schnurrp

Agree. 

This one is found in the '93 catalog and also in Michele's collection. Also one of those "komandirskie" dials found on amphibians that tend to confuse:


----------



## VWatchie

mariomart said:


> This is an interesting one.
> 
> Straight up I can tell you that *the hands are modern replacements*.
> 
> Now the dial is a little confusing. My gut feeling is that it is a modern reproduction, the reason I give is that the helmet lacks a little detail and overall the black lines in the graphic appear a little too heavy in their thickness and application. The other detail is that *the **lume** dots appear too small and the **colour** is not quite right.* At best it might have been re-lumed, as *the bezel dot looks "off".*
> 
> I'm not sure if this dial was sold in the Vostok Type 320 Amphibian case, I've seen it more often in the Vostok Type 020 Amphibian case.
> 
> Overall, as I said earlier, *my gut feeling is that it's a **mish-mash** of old and modern reproduction parts.*
> 
> Hopefully others will chime in with their take.
> 
> Edit. I just had a look at what other watches the seller has available and I see that *they have many, many **fantasy** watches with "fake" dials*, so it strengthens my feeling that the dial is a reproduction.


You make a strong, interesting, and educational case Mario, and as good as it looks, I'll pass! I want legit watches, and when I do want a Franken I prefer to create it myself. Thanks, comrade!


----------



## Neruda

Any thoughts on this supposedly Raketa movement? Bevelled balance bridge seems out with the rest, but I'm wondering about the marking. Is this a 2609HA, a variant, or a fake? Thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

That is a so-called "precision" version of the 2609.HA movement, 2609.ПР. I've never heard a convincing reason for why it is more precise, but I believe it has something to do with the metal used in the balance hair spring. However, that one's had its balance replaced so I guess it's a moot point. Several Raketa models had the ПР movement standard. I believe the one best known is the Copernicus.

Here are a bunch from an '85 catalog:


----------



## Neruda

Very interesting ! Thanks, Schnurrp.


----------



## Chascomm

Neruda said:


> View attachment 12608985
> 
> Any thoughts on this supposedly Raketa movement? Bevelled balance bridge seems out with the rest, but I'm wondering about the marking. Is this a 2609HA, a variant, or a fake? Thanks.


A fake what? 2609.NP ? No idea what that means, but I can confidently say that only Raketa have ever made a movement that looks like this. Can't say if any parts have been changed. What does it look like from the other side? Should be 12 hour time, sweep second hand and no calendar functions.


----------



## Sansoni7

And about this Elektronika; is it a Franken?
Tks in advance.


----------



## Spannerman

Just bought this fairly scratched up Pobeda, the crown looks too new and in good condition to be original, what about the rest? How much would you say is a fair price? Thanks in advance!




















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Spannerman said:


> Just bought this fairly scratched up Pobeda, the crown looks too new and in good condition to be original, what about the rest? How much would you say is a fair price? Thanks in advance!
> View attachment 12610045
> View attachment 12610047
> View attachment 12610049
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Classic First Moscow Pobeda with what looks like the original crystal and movement. Going by the size of the movement in the case, pretty good overall size for an old Pobeda. Crown looks new but not too far off in shape, a little big.


----------



## schnurrp

Sansoni7 said:


> And about this Elektronika; is it a Franken?
> Tks in advance.


Looks fine. These were made for a long time and I guess they were popular going by the number still available. If you're patient, for a little more $ (or not) you can get the original bracelet with it.


----------



## Sansoni7

Hi *schnurrp* and tks for your information.
Can you please show me an original bracelet?
Thank you very much.


----------



## schnurrp

Sansoni7 said:


> Hi *schnurrp* and tks for your information.
> Can you please show me an original bracelet?
> Thank you very much.


Look here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/RPKQQQPHn5qQZCR93


----------



## Sansoni7

Thank you *schnurrp.

*Now i will try to find oneto buy.


----------



## VWatchie

Neruda said:


> View attachment 12608985
> 
> Any thoughts on this supposedly Raketa movement? Bevelled balance bridge seems out with the rest, but I'm wondering about the marking. Is this a 2609HA, a variant, or a fake? Thanks.


I'm not enough familiar with the Raketa movements to make any definitive claims, but this looks like a 2609.НП (NP). I believe this movement is a 2609 "de luxe", and if I remember correctly I believe it has a hairspring of a high-quality or higher quality alloy, but that's about all I know and I'm not even sure about that. Hopefully one of our comrade experts will chime in.


----------



## mroatman

Spannerman said:


> Just bought this fairly scratched up Pobeda, the crown looks too new and in good condition to be original, what about the rest? How much would you say is a fair price? Thanks in advance!


Replaced crown and hands. $20.


----------



## Spannerman

mroatman said:


> Replaced crown and hands. $20.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12610717
> 
> 
> View attachment 12610719


Thanks for your help! What makes you say the hands are replaced? The only slight difference I can see is on the tail of the second hand. Any help is appreciated, first time dipping my toe into vintage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## XsiOn

Hi Friends,

what do you think of this Precision? I never saw this hands in combination with this dial. They look more like Volna to me. And dial is also quite new for the age....?




























Thanks, Peter


----------



## schnurrp

I believe there are only a couple dials that would be authentic with that old movement and that's not one of them. One or the other does not belong. Also there is a reproduction of that dial out. I would be suspicious of that and interested only at a low price for parts without a lot more investigation.


----------



## Robotmensch

Does anybody know if this is a fake one? I've never seen this dial before :think:


----------



## mariomart

Robotmensch said:


> Does anybody know if this is a fake one? I've never seen this dial before :think:


I suspect that this dial belonged to a different model Komandirskie with a type 34 case, and was inserted into the type 29 case you have shown. The original dial in the type 29 looked very similar.

I have supplied scans of the 1990 Tento Vostok catalog so you can see what I mean. The case you have shown should have the Red Star dial.

View attachment 12618095


View attachment 12618097


----------



## Robotmensch

The links don't work for me - but you led me in the rights direction (I have the catalogues on my Google Drive  ) I guess you meant the 291223 and 341226?

Thanks a lot for your help - you saved me a few $   

Too bad though, as finally there was a Komandirskie that I really liked the look of


----------



## mariomart

Robotmensch said:


> The links don't work for me - but you led me in the rights direction (I have the catalogues on my Google Drive  ) I guess you meant the 291223 and 341226?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your help - you saved me a few $
> 
> Too bad though, as finally there was a Komandirskie that I really liked the look of


Yeah links/attachments have been screwy for the past week, but you hit the nail on the head as those are the correct model numbers I was trying to post.

Sometimes if the price is low enough it's fine to purchase watches that bring a smile to your dial regardless of authenticity


----------



## schnurrp

Well done, mariomart. Also when you see a komandirskie with two sets of minute marks, there's a problem.


----------



## Robotmensch

The smile will disappear as soon as I start obsessing about bringing it back to original  It's $30ish, so it's not too horrible - but I have too many half-finished watches that I am trying to defranken, so I'll pass on this one.


----------



## Neruda

Robotmensch - I also suspect the movement is considerably earlier, perhaps late 1970s. By the late 80s the B logo appeared under the balance wheel, among other differences.


----------



## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> Robotmensch - I also suspect the movement is considerably earlier, perhaps late 1970s. By the late 80s the B logo appeared under the balance wheel, among other differences.


Good point. I have this civil watch in my collection shown in a 1970 catalog that has a similar 2409. Notice the screw hairspring attachment to the balance assembly.


----------



## Robotmensch

Thanks for all the input  I'll definitely not be buying this, no matter how much I like its looks


----------



## AGAPITO

If possible, I want to ask you about the authenticity of two 2409 Vostok watches . I think one of them would be manufactured in 1975 and the second one already in 1990 or similar time. Apparently it seem correct.

For me maybe the question is curiously the back cover. I had seen some vostok watches with that drawing on the dial, but not on the back cover.

View attachment 12621727


View attachment 12621731


View attachment 12621733


I can´t open the watch case now, but I have seen that it has a 2409A movement, similar to this internet image. Do you think the watch is correct?

View attachment 12621787


As for the second watch, it is a Vostok Amphibia 2409A-SU, which I would attribute to a later time. I think it's pretty well preserved.

View attachment 12621769


View attachment 12621773


View attachment 12621775


View attachment 12621777


View attachment 12621779


Do you think it would be legit? Thank you in advance.


----------



## Rodkopf

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Kirova Chrono*

Hi Guys, I would appreciate your opinion on following watch. I bought it in typical online auction rush, then later I realized, that it is not original, case is obviously from different type and age. What do you think about dial, hands and movement? Does it have any value or should I start to fight with seller, as it was written "sold as on pictures", but also "guaranteed all original as well".  Looking forward to your opinion. Thanks!


----------



## AGAPITO

AGAPITO said:


> If possible, I want to ask you about the authenticity of two 2409 Vostok watches . I think one of them would be manufactured in 1975 and the second one already in 1990 or similar time. Apparently it seem correct.
> 
> For me maybe the question is curiously the back cover. I had seen some vostok watches with that drawing on the dial, but not on the back cover.
> 
> View attachment 12621727
> 
> 
> View attachment 12621731
> 
> 
> View attachment 12621733
> 
> 
> I can´t open the watch case now, but I have seen that it has a 2409A movement, similar to this internet image. Do you think the watch is correct?
> 
> View attachment 12621787
> 
> 
> As for the second watch, it is a Vostok Amphibia 2409A-SU, which I would attribute to a later time. I think it's pretty well preserved.
> 
> View attachment 12621769
> 
> 
> View attachment 12621773
> 
> 
> View attachment 12621775
> 
> 
> View attachment 12621777
> 
> 
> View attachment 12621779
> 
> 
> Do you think it would be legit? Thank you in advance.


I see that the images are not seen. Do you know what could have happened?


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Kirova Chrono*



Rodkopf said:


> Hi Guys, I would appreciate your opinion on following watch. I bought it in typical online auction rush, then later I realized, that it is not original, case is obviously from different type and age. What do you think about dial, hands and movement? Does it have any value or should I start to fight with seller, as it was written "sold as on pictures", but also "guaranteed all original as well".  Looking forward to your opinion. Thanks!
> View attachment 12621791
> View attachment 12621795
> View attachment 12621797
> View attachment 12621799


I have seen these before but they are pretty rare and I am not qualified to authenticate one. I did make a quick trip to the 'net and this was the first article I saw that seemed to have some usefull information: 1ГЧЗ/Valjoux 61 One-Button Chronograph. There could be more but I don't have time to do any more research. I found what I found searching: First Moscow one-button chrono watch"

I believe the case is a "modern" replacement, the dial looks too good to be true so may have been re-painted, hands re-lumed and the second hand may have been replaced. The movement looks very similar to the other example I looked at.

Hopefully we'll be getting some more feedback from others.

Was it expensive?


----------



## Neruda

Agapito - if you click "go advanced" you should be able to post your pics. There seems to be a problem at the moment.


----------



## Rodkopf

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Kirova Chrono*

Dear Schnurrp, thank you for your reply. More or less you confirmed my worries, about the case I am 99% sure. Especially with "dial looks too good to be true" you are right. Even-though I consider myself as a little advanced in vintage watch world, I still sometimes surprise myself, on what I am able to bet.

Was it expensive? Well, considering the price of this one, it wasn't...but considering it's lack of authenticity, it wasn't cheap... 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Rare...603034?hash=item361847f55a:g:y7AAAOSw2gxYqEVB


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Kirova Chrono*



Rodkopf said:


> Dear Schnurrp, thank you for your reply. More or less you confirmed my worries, about the case I am 99% sure. Especially with "dial looks too good to be true" you are right. Even-though I consider myself as a little advanced in vintage watch world, I still sometimes surprise myself, on what I am able to bet.
> 
> Was it expensive? Well, considering the price of this one, it wasn't...but considering it's lack of authenticity, it wasn't cheap...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Rare...603034?hash=item361847f55a:g:y7AAAOSw2gxYqEVB


Yes, it's hard to believe that an authentic dial/movement in that condition would be removed from its original case and put in a modern one. I believe there was a pocket watch version and maybe that's where it came from but I would expect an authentic pocket watch version would be more valuable than a made up wristwatch version.

That is a beauty that fialkin77 is "representing" and if I had the disposable income to buy soviet watches in that price range that might be at the top of my list.


----------



## flenr

would like a 2nd (3rd, 4th, 5th etc welcome too) opinion on this... posted this in the 'what did you buy today thread': rather convinced the dial's restored (esp considering the seller's rep) and the crown's replaced, but the movement is sound... what do y'all think?


----------



## schnurrp

The one pictured on the left from comrade Mroatman's collection has been discussed before and is believed to be authentic. You can see the differences: "Pobeda" different font, etc., hands different, no "Second Moscow" logo, place of manufacture in different location, second hand printed without ring.

In my opinion yours has a dial that was cleaned of all marks, stains, and in the process printing, and re-printed.

It's possible that one just like yours will surface and that would help establish it as authentic. In the meantime I am suspicious of its authenticity.


----------



## AGAPITO

Thank you very much comrade Neruda. I´ll try again.

My question is about two 2409 Vostok watches . I think one of them would be manufactured in 1975 and the second one already in 1990 or similar time. The two watches do not seem to me rare specimens, but rather normal watches manufactured at different times in the Chistopol factory. Both apparently seem correct.

Maybe the doubt is the back cover. I had seen some vostok watch with that drawing on the dial, but not on the back cover.


























I can´t open the watch case now, but I have seen the movement inside before, and it is a 2409A, similar to this internet image. Do you think the watch is correct?










As for the second watch, it is a Vostok Amphibia 2409A-SU, which I would attribute to a later time (when I saw the 2409A-SU I always think about Gorbachev era, although this is not true). I think it's pretty well preserved.










































Do you think it would be legit? Thank you in advance.


----------



## Dub Rubb

First off, thank you guys for all of the help recently and in the future. I truly appreciate it. 
Now on to the next round of watches I am considering. I have learned a lot from you all about Vostoks, but am now stepping into other branches of the Russian watch world.

What do you guys think of these 3? Unfortunately no movement pictures from sellers, but I am very interested in the engraved poljot. Thanks in advance comrades!












































Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## Neruda

Flenr - There are currently at least three examples of the dial of Mroatman's version with the Pobeda logo in script on ebay. Two have some signs of age, the other is very clean - perhaps this is suspicious, or perhaps it indicates these dials can be successfully cleaned?














All three have identical hour and minute hands, perhaps indicating (dare I say it) that Mroatman's are wrong. All movements have the Second Moscow Watch Factory logo which I believe was introduced in 1958. All dials are marked "made in USSR" below 6 o'clock.

Also on ebay are three watches with the curved Pobeda logo on the dial - but there are significant differences. These dials are not the same as Flenr's, but possibly sufficiently similar. The first significant detail to note is that beneath 6 o'clock instead of "made in USSR" is abbreviated identification of the watch factory. There is no jewel number on the dial.














Note also the earlier logo on the movement, and the date (4th quarter 1956).
The other two examples of the curved Pobeda logo watches sadly don't have very clear photos:














My conclusion is that the curved Pobeda dials are earlier, and the Pobeda script dials are later - pre and post 1958 perhaps. So Flenr's example has two possibilities - either, as Schurrp very credibly speculates, it is an incorrectly refurbished dial - or just possibly it is a "transition" dial with elements of both.


----------



## Neruda

Agapito - I can't comment on the dial on your first watch, but the movement seems to correspond to c.1975. Up until about 1972 earlier movements have stars on the ratchet wheel. Movements from the late 1970s have the B in a circle logo moved to under the balance. There is also a difference to the screw retaining the crown wheel.
This 2409A movement comes from a Vostok celebrating the 1980 Moscow Olympics, perhaps made in advance in late 1979, so you can see the evolution:







The movement on your second watch probably dates to c.1982-1985. The SU stamp seems to have been introduced on Vostoks in about 1980 and dropped about 1985, while the bevelled edge to the movement (as seen above) was discontinued about 1982. The dial is marked "antimagnetic" and I think these usually had a non-ferrous shield beneath the caseback - perhaps this is missing?


----------



## mroatman

Spannerman said:


> Thanks for your help! What makes you say the hands are replaced? The only slight difference I can see is on the tail of the second hand. Any help is appreciated, first time dipping my toe into vintage.


The hour and minute hands are a different shape. It may be easier to see once the watch arrives. The proper hands have a very slight, even growth/taper to the tip. The ones on your watch have the more traditional Pobeda hands -- straight most of the way, then a quick taper at the end.



XsiOn said:


> Hi Friends,
> what do you think of this Precision? I never saw this hands in combination with this dial. They look more like Volna to me. And dial is also quite new for the age....?
> Thanks, Peter


The dial is a modern reproduction. The movement and hands come from a Volna. Pass.



Rodkopf said:


> What do you think about dial, hands and movement? Does it have any value or should I start to fight with seller, as it was written "sold as on pictures", but also "guaranteed all original as well".  Looking forward to your opinion. Thanks!


Start a fight.



Neruda said:


> Flenr - There are currently at least three examples of the dial of Mroatman's version with the Pobeda logo in script on ebay. Two have some signs of age, the other is very clean - perhaps this is suspicious, or perhaps it indicates these dials can be successfully cleaned?
> All three have identical hour and minute hands, perhaps indicating (dare I say it) that Mroatman's are wrong.


Yes, if we are to trust the 1960 catalog, mine are likely replaced.


----------



## AGAPITO

Neruda said:


> Agapito - I can't comment on the dial on your first watch, but the movement seems to correspond to c.1975. Up until about 1972 earlier movements have stars on the ratchet wheel. Movements from the late 1970s have the B in a circle logo moved to under the balance. There is also a difference to the screw retaining the crown wheel.
> This 2409A movement comes from a Vostok celebrating the 1980 Moscow Olympics, perhaps made in advance in late 1979, so you can see the evolution:
> View attachment 12624757
> 
> The movement on your second watch probably dates to c.1982-1985. The SU stamp seems to have been introduced on Vostoks in about 1980 and dropped about 1985, while the bevelled edge to the movement (as seen above) was discontinued about 1982. The dial is marked "antimagnetic" and I think these usually had a non-ferrous shield beneath the caseback - perhaps this is missing?


I have taken the second watch to a watchmaker and I have been able to open the watch case.

As you say, the Amphibia has that antimagnetic shield.

It´s a good new. I think both watches would be correct.


----------



## kalvinoz

Hello everyone - seeking your expert opinion on this Sturmanskie 17j. I've been looking for a piece like that in not a terrible state, but have some doubts about this one:
- the hour and minute hand are either new or have been relumed (is it possible to tell the difference?)
- the case looks a bit too clean/polished compared with the condition of the dial
- most worryingly, the Geneva stripes appear to not be present on all plates

On the bright side:
- the crown looks the right shape
- the dial shows age (faded red, greenish edges, faded loom)

Finally, what's the going-rate for a watch in this condition (assuming it's mostly legit)?


----------



## schnurrp

kalvinoz said:


> Hello everyone - seeking your expert opinion on this Sturmanskie 17j. I've been looking for a piece like that in not a terrible state, but have some doubts about this one:
> - the hour and minute hand are either new or have been relumed (is it possible to tell the difference?)
> - the case looks a bit too clean/polished compared with the condition of the dial
> - most worryingly, the Geneva stripes appear to not be present on all plates
> 
> On the bright side:
> - the crown looks the right shape
> - the dial shows age (faded red, greenish edges, faded loom)
> 
> Finally, what's the going-rate for a watch in this condition (assuming it's mostly legit)?
> 
> View attachment 12636781
> 
> View attachment 12636785
> 
> View attachment 12636787


The hands, first of all, need to be blued. Since the Gagarin shares so many parts with the ordinary sportivnie sometimes non-blued hands are used from a sportivnie. Do the hands glow? If they do, it's been re-lumed. The color of the hand lume and dial lume should be fairly close. On that one they're not but the discoloration of the lume at the base of the hour hand indicates some age so it's hard to say for sure. I think it would be best, also, that the second hand be long enough to reach into the second marks on the perimeter.

It's hard to comment on the case without some more pictures but it's quite possible that the case was moved from a nicer sportivnie, impossible to say. These cases can be re-chromed but that would be obvious.

From what I can see, the movement looks fine. Since this is a common movement from that time any little differences could be chalked up to period repairs/replacement and could be reversed.

A positive for this one is that on the dial the red star on the "flying bomb" has not been re-painted as is often done by sellers "dressing" it up.


----------



## kev80e

What do you make of this guy's. I really like the dial but it just seems very clean.


----------



## schnurrp

I rarely dismiss a dial because it's too "clean". In this case I believe that dial and hands have been moved from one of the three watches on the right of the picture below taken from the '90 Vostok catalog. Vostok had a perfect opportunity to show this dial in a 320/470 amphibian since this '90 catalog has the most 320/470 amphibian dials, but it's not there. Also lume dot on bezel has been manufactured probably from a komandirskie bezel and the magnetic shield doesn't make sense on an amphibian whose dial does not state it's antimagnetic.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I rarely dismiss a dial because it's too "clean". In this case I believe that dial and hands have been moved from one of the three watches on the right of the picture below taken from the '90 Vostok catalog. Vostok had a perfect opportunity to show this dial in a 320/470 amphibian since this '90 catalog has the most 320/470 amphibian dials, but it's not there. Also lume dot on bezel has been manufactured probably from a komandirskie bezel and the magnetic shield doesn't make sense on an amphibian whose dial does not state it's antimagnetic.
> 
> View attachment 12638785


Also notice the crown stem showing at the edge of the dial.


----------



## Yurij

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hey!
I have become obsessed with watches made in the USSR over the last weeks, and I have been living on ebay and around the internet just searching for watches made in the USSR. I have found some watches that I love, and I am wondering if they are good to buy. I would love to get an opinion from you guys.

1:














2:














3:













This last one has had new lume put on the dial and the arms.

To me, the clockwork in all of them look legit, but as I have no idea, and this is the first watch or watches I will ever buy in my life, and also because I hope it could be the start of a beautiful collection with great affectional value to me, it would be really nice not to spend my limited budget on something that does not have that Soviet authenticity.

I appreciate anything that can help me to make an informed first choice.

Best regards,
Yurij


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Yurij said:


> Hey!
> I have become obsessed with watches made in the USSR over the last weeks, and I have been living on ebay and around the internet just searching for watches made in the USSR. I have found some watches that I love, and I am wondering if they are good to buy. I would love to get an opinion from you guys.
> 
> 1:
> View attachment 12638903
> View attachment 12638905
> 
> 
> 2:
> View attachment 12638909
> View attachment 12638911
> 
> 
> 3:
> View attachment 12638913
> View attachment 12638917
> 
> This last one has had new lume put on the dial and the arms.
> 
> To me, the clockwork in all of them look legit, but as I have no idea, and this is the first watch or watches I will ever buy in my life, and also because I hope it could be the start of a beautiful collection with great affectional value to me, it would be really nice not to spend my limited budget on something that does not have that Soviet authenticity.
> 
> I appreciate anything that can help me to make an informed first choice.
> 
> Best regards,
> Yurij


Welcome to the forum, comrade, I hope this hobby will be a lot of fun for you.

I would only consider the third one, a classic "sportivnie" or sports watch, so named because with its hacking movement one was able to time sporting events. That one was made at the First Moscow Watch Factory (Poljot) in 1957 according to the date on the movement. It looks all authentic except for the back which is not pictured. It's a personal decision but some serious collectors prefer that their watch choices have not been re-lumed even if the appearance is a little less good.

The other two did not leave any soviet watch factory looking like that. Somebody "constructed" them from various collected parts, so not good choices, in my opinion, unless they are very cheap and you need the parts.

Good luck!


----------



## Yurij

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Thank you so very much for your reply! Even before I own a Soviet watch it is very exciting, and I drive my GF and my friends nuts talking about the history of soviet watch factories all the time.

This has been a great help for me, and I think I will definitely buy it then.

Here is the picture of the back cover:








May I ask you opinon on this as well, comrade?


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> I rarely dismiss a dial because it's too "clean". In this case I believe that dial and hands have been moved from one of the three watches on the right of the picture below taken from the '90 Vostok catalog. Vostok had a perfect opportunity to show this dial in a 320/470 amphibian since this '90 catalog has the most 320/470 amphibian dials, but it's not there. Also lume dot on bezel has been manufactured probably from a komandirskie bezel and the magnetic shield doesn't make sense on an amphibian whose dial does not state it's antimagnetic.
> 
> View attachment 12638785


Cheers Schnurrp . I had picked up on the bezel and stem and thought it had the wrong seconds hand, evidently not. Was hoping it belonged in a type 34 case . Still a really nice dial but I really don't need another project at the minute so I'll leave it.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Yurij said:


> Thank you so very much for your reply! Even before I own a Soviet watch it is very exciting, and I drive my GF and my friends nuts talking about the history of soviet watch factories all the time.
> 
> This has been a great help for me, and I think I will definitely buy it then.
> 
> Here is the picture of the back cover:
> View attachment 12638991
> 
> 
> May I ask you opinon on this as well, comrade?


The back looks authentic.

Were you told it was re-lumed because the lume does not look new to me.


----------



## Yurij

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> The back looks authentic.
> 
> Were you told it was re-lumed because the lume does not look new to me.


Yes, it actually said in the description of this watch. Then I sent seller a message asking if there were more parts that were re-done or changed, and he said that it was all original except for the lume.

Now with your help i have found my confidence to buy, and I just placed the order. I am one excited mother bleeper, comrade schnurrp!

Again thank you for your help! I must say I am very impressed with the level of solidarity, friendship and understanding in this forum


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Yurij said:


> Yes, it actually said in the description of this watch. Then I sent seller a message asking if there were more parts that were re-done or changed, and he said that it was all original except for the lume.
> 
> Now with your help i have found my confidence to buy, and I just placed the order. I am one excited mother bleeper, comrade schnurrp!
> 
> Again thank you for your help! I must say I am very impressed with the level of solidarity, friendship and understanding in this forum


You are welcome. Wear it in good health, comrade, which, since the original lume may have been radioactive, will be easier with new lume.

Here is a picture of your choice in comrade Mroatman's massive collection which I had to visit to make sure there was a model made without place-of-manufacture on the dial.


----------



## schnurrp

Here's the one-and-only sportivnie in my collection, the "swimmer" model. Everything's the same as the one you just bought except for the dial and hands:


----------



## bpmurray

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Yurij said:


> Yes, it actually said in the description of this watch. Then I sent seller a message asking if there were more parts that were re-done or changed, and he said that it was all original except for the lume.
> 
> Now with your help i have found my confidence to buy, and I just placed the order. I am one excited mother bleeper, comrade schnurrp!
> 
> Again thank you for your help! I must say I am very impressed with the level of solidarity, friendship and understanding in this forum


Congratulations! You will be very happy with this watch. You definitely did the right thing by asking before buying!

If you want to wear this daily, you may want to consider replacing the strap that the seller appears to include. I can't tell for sure from the photos, but generally the ones I have received are pretty poor quality. Look for 16mm width, and keep in mind that this watch is small relative to more modern designs (33mm in diameter), so if you have bigger wrists, you may want to consider a bund or padded strap. There are some good threads on where to buy watch straps at a reasonable price.


----------



## Rodkopf

Hello gentlemen,

does anyone know more about this quartz beauty? 
I could not find it.

Thank you


----------



## Neruda

Rodkopf - there's one of these watches on the internet with documentation dated to 04 09 1990 https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/hockey-stars-ussr-watch-1691810698

In 1989 a number of important hockey players in the USSR were allowed to leave and join Canadian clubs, but were obliged to play for the USSR team in the World Hockey Championships. If the date is September 1990, it seems possible that this watch was part of the celebration of the April 1990 championship held in Switzerland (and won by the USSR) or made in advance for the 1991 championships held in Finland. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Hockey_World_Championships

A related Slava quartz watch was made to commemorate the meeting of Bush and Gorbachev in Malta aboard the USSR Slava and USA Belknap ships in early December 1989:


----------



## mroatman

kalvinoz said:


> Hello everyone - seeking your expert opinion on this Sturmanskie 17j. I've been looking for a piece like that in not a terrible state, but have some doubts about this one:
> - the hour and minute hand are either new or have been relumed (is it possible to tell the difference?)
> - the case looks a bit too clean/polished compared with the condition of the dial
> - most worryingly, the Geneva stripes appear to not be present on all plates
> On the bright side:
> - the crown looks the right shape
> - the dial shows age (faded red, greenish edges, faded loom)
> Finally, what's the going-rate for a watch in this condition (assuming it's mostly legit)?


I think you got it about right here. Everything looks correct (movement included), though the case is probably replaced, the hands are probably relumed, and the second hand looks a tiny bit too short. These are not dealbreakers on their own unless the price is astronomical. The going rate for these seems to be ~$350-600+.

I'd say it's a very nice, authentic example with just a few small compromises. Hard to find a watch this collectible without any of those, though.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Everything's the same as the one you just bought except for the dial and hands:


Surprisingly not, comrade! Sportivnie were produced in two case sizes; you have the smaller one with two-piece back. The larger case has a one-piece back, just like the 17-jewel Sturmanskie.

You can also usually distinguish the two from the front, as the smaller case has thinner lugs and a dial with the '1MWF from Kirova' text. The larger model has thicker lugs and omits this text for some reason.

The 'swimmer' model was only produced in the smaller size, I believe. But many of the other models were produced in both sizes:









I can't explain why, since they're so dang similar. Perhaps the two-piece back was released as a later development for better water-resistance.


----------



## mroatman

Neruda said:


> In 1989 a number of important hockey players in the USSR were allowed to leave and join Canadian clubs, but were obliged to play for the USSR team in the World Hockey Championships.


Relatedly, this is worth a watch: Red Army (2014) - IMDb


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Surprisingly not, comrade! Sportivnie were produced in two case sizes; you have the smaller one with two-piece back. The larger case has a one-piece back, just like the 17-jewel Sturmanskie.
> 
> You can also usually distinguish the two from the front, as the smaller case has thinner lugs and a dial with the '1MWF from Kirova' text. The larger model has thicker lugs and omits this text for some reason.
> 
> The 'swimmer' model was only produced in the smaller size, I believe. But many of the other models were produced in both sizes:
> 
> View attachment 12645901
> 
> 
> I can't explain why, since they're so dang similar. Perhaps the two-piece back was released as a later development for better water-resistance.


Thanks for that correction, comrade mroatman. When are you going to add more views of the watches in your collection so that we can help ourselves? Although I seemed to have looked right past the back view of my swimmer.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> When are you going to add more views of the watches in your collection so that we can help ourselves?


I think about it almost every day......


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> I think about it almost every day......


That's step #1, anyway.


----------



## junkman

_Good morning, see if you can help me, I would like to buy this watch and I'm not sure about the dial. The seller has only put 2 photos and I can not see the machinery._


----------



## Bostok

junkman said:


> Good morning, see if you can help me, I would like to buy this watch and I'm not sure about the dial. The seller has only put 2 photos and I can not see the machinery.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12646631
> View attachment 12646633


Refurbished (at max) watch for me, wrong hour and minute hands, fake (or repainted dial, with "Buran" in place of "Sputnik"?), repainted in all red (?) second hand, other crown and back cover, etc. 
I'd pass.


----------



## dutchassasin

junkman said:


> _Good morning, see if you can help me, I would like to buy this watch and I'm not sure about the dial. The seller has only put 2 photos and I can not see the machinery._
> 
> View attachment 12646743
> View attachment 12646745


Im afraid Bostok gave you the wrong information. That is the Sputnik reissue made by vostok. Quite a rare one!
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/sputnik-anniversary-87272-3.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-buran-watch-7183.html


----------



## Bostok

dutchassasin said:


> Im afraid Bostok gave you the wrong information. That is the Sputnik reissue made by vostok. Quite a rare one!
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/sputnik-anniversary-87272-3.html
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-buran-watch-7183.html


I'm so sorry for the mis information o|, I was totally refering to the original Sputnik and I really didn't know a reissue by Boctok was ever produced.


----------



## Bostok

double post


----------



## Neruda

Junkman, your watch looks to be the Bostok reissue of the Sputnik. Two examples, white and black dials, are discussed at https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-buran-watch-7183.html
Second hand looks good, and the caseback also appears on the Buran Arctic/Antarctic - but these are rare, so I guess you should consider the possibility of a fake.


----------



## schnurrp

Bostok said:


> I'm so sorry for the mis information o|, I was totally refering to the original Sputnik and I really didn't know a reissue by Boctok was ever produced.


Glad I didn't give my similar opinion of that one. Something new to me, if not every day now, at least every month...still.


----------



## Neruda

What do you make of this movement?









And the big question, who is being naughty here?

I'll post more information soon, but I would like your first impressions just on the movement.


----------



## shahrincamille

Hi

I'm Shahrin from Malaysia. Just need an opinion (the first of many to come) from the gurus in this forum. Been a lurker here for the past month or two, and just getting into watches, as prior to this I'm a one-watch man - my trusty Oris 7461 is on my wrist nearly every day for close to 2 decades, and probably it's about time to give this gold-plated dude a bit of rest. My main focus of collection is in fountain pens, and I use this same handle at The Fountain Pen Network.

I'm just curious to the authenticity of this watch:

*Item 332035911887 on eBay*

Is this a "mod" watch (franken/ fake if you prefer it that way)? :-d

The seller has a solid eBay rating of 100%, although apparently he's quite known for offering his own personal takes on what Russian watches should be;-)

Thanks in advance.


Shahrinb-)


----------



## shahrincamille

I would like to post pictures or a hyperlink to my query above, but apparently as a new member I'm not allowed to do so even though I did try to upload the pictures directly.

So hopefully this post (and other assorted worthless junk posts I'm going to post up these next few days) would bring up my post count to a sufficient level for me to post up genuine queries and contributions, WITH pictures and links, to this forum.

I'm not here to post up sales. Even at the FPN I hardly sold anything even though I currently own nearly 400 fountain pens:-d

Shahrinb-)


----------



## schnurrp

shahrincamille said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm Shahrin from Malaysia. Just need an opinion (the first of many to come) from the gurus in this forum. Been a lurker here for the past month or two, and just getting into watches, as prior to this I'm a one-watch man - my trusty Oris 7461 is on my wrist nearly every day for close to 2 decades, and probably it's about time to give this gold-plated dude a bit of rest. My main focus of collection is in fountain pens, and I use this same handle at The Fountain Pen Network.
> 
> I'm just curious to the authenticity of this watch:
> 
> *Item 332035911887 on eBay*
> 
> Is this a "mod" watch (franken/ fake if you prefer it that way)? :-d
> 
> The seller has a solid eBay rating of 100%, although apparently he's quite known for offering his own personal takes on what Russian watches should be;-)
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Shahrinb-)


A seller may have a 100% rating even though some of his items are questionable, because he is always willing to do what's necessary to make the buyer as happy as possible.

In the case of the watch you reference, if you were to buy it the best thing he could do for you is to cheerfully give you a refund when you return it. It is totally made up and the item with its advertisement is designed to deceive. You were smart to ask.

Keep looking and welcome to the forum.


----------



## mariomart

shahrincamille said:


> I would like to post pictures or a hyperlink to my query above, but apparently as a new member I'm not allowed to do so even though I did try to upload the pictures directly.
> 
> So hopefully this post (and other assorted worthless junk posts I'm going to post up these next few days) would bring up my post count to a sufficient level for me to post up genuine queries and contributions, WITH pictures and links, to this forum.
> 
> I'm not here to post up sales. Even at the FPN I hardly sold anything even though I currently own nearly 400 fountain pens:-d
> 
> Shahrinb-)


Posting link and pictures on behalf of new member shahrincamille post and enquiry. Welcome to the F10 forum 

Not my area of knowledge, but judging from the photos I would say it is a reproduction dial with mismatched hands for sure.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/332035911887


----------



## shahrincamille

schnurrp said:


> A seller may have a 100% rating even though some of his items are questionable, because he is always willing to do what's necessary to make the buyer as happy as possible.
> 
> In the case of the watch you reference, if you were to buy it the best thing he could do for you is to cheerfully give you a refund when you return it. It is totally made up and the item with its advertisement is designed to deceive. You were smart to ask.
> 
> Keep looking and welcome to the forum.


Thanks a million schnurrp |>

I had my doubts too. I believe a genuine NOS Soviet watch would be hard to come by 2.5 decades on, and if there are some left I would expect the opening price of a NOS premium Soviet watch brand with papers to be multiples of what was asked by the seller. A search on Google image does not show the watch pictures to come from anywhere else except from the seller himself.

Shahrin b-)


----------



## shahrincamille

mariomart said:


> Posting link and pictures on behalf of new member shahrincamille post and enquiry. Welcome to the F10 forum
> 
> Not my area of knowledge, but judging from the photos I would say it is a reproduction dial with mismatched hands for sure.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/332035911887
> 
> View attachment 12649641
> 
> 
> View attachment 12649643
> 
> 
> View attachment 12649645
> 
> 
> View attachment 12649647


Thank you mariomart:-!

I suppose the 2612 movement is the real thing?

Shahrinb-)


----------



## junkman

I have that model, I guess it's right


----------



## shahrincamille

junkman said:


> I have that model, I guess it's right
> View attachment 12649685
> View attachment 12649687


Interesting:-!

But the hands sure are not the same. Some whose hands got changed - yours, or the seller's?

Shahrinb-)


----------



## junkman

It's mine, I send you this photo so you can see how it looks on your wrist. If you have a big doll that is a bit bad.









By the moment (but ask before those who have the knowledge)

https://www.ebay.es/itm/1950s-SOVIE...419170?hash=item2844e2ffe2:g:ayYAAOSwbopZTOMO
https://www.ebay.es/itm/1961-1962-V...117617?hash=item2a91957531:g:yO4AAOSw42JZEGaH


----------



## shahrincamille

Now I noticed another iteration of the watch oneBay.

* Item 162737340291 *

Different hour and minute hands. Different case back:-d

eBay stuff never cease to amaze me:roll:



Shahrin b-)


----------



## schnurrp

shahrincamille said:


> Interesting:-!
> 
> But the hands sure are not the same. Some whose hands got changed - yours, or the seller's?
> 
> Shahrinb-)


Sellers!

Notice diamond First Moscow logo missing on subject watch. That's a much newer movement.

Mine:


----------



## shahrincamille

schnurrp said:


> Sellers!
> 
> Notice diamond First Moscow logo missing on subject watch. That's a much newer movement.
> 
> Mine:
> 
> 
> View attachment 12650165


Nice watch, man!:-!

The hands on yours certainly look more appropriate for this Poljot. The seller's look totally out of place and not in sync with the rest of the watch


----------



## schnurrp

shahrincamille said:


> Nice watch, man!:-!
> 
> The hands on yours certainly look more appropriate for this Poljot. The seller's look totally out of place and not in sync with the rest of the watch


From 1960 catalogs:


----------



## mroatman

shahrincamille said:


> The hands on yours certainly look more appropriate for this Poljot. The seller's look totally out of place and not in sync with the rest of the watch


Another problem is when you see multiples of anything NOS for sale, except in extremely rare cases.









I just feel bad for those 7 buyers who already paid $120 on a counterfeit piece of junk.

Note this dial is often reproduced; it's not easy to distinguish the fakes, but after you study them long enough, the sparkly/shimmery appearance and smoothed indices are giveaways.

A few more originals, with links to catalogs when available: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/signal


----------



## junkman

Is it original or fantasy?
The dials are decorative, gift wine together with other 3133 caliber watches that I buy from a German individual. Only seen in the catalog of Jury No. 6. (and that's no guarantee)


----------



## Neruda

Looks good to me.

The UN military watch appears in the 1993 Slava catalogue, as does an America 1492-1992. Both have similar style bezels - so probably this is the approximate date of your example. The general design seems to be copied from Poljot, but it's not a true chronograph.

The movement is a variation on the Slava 2414 family, with the two sub-dials added - I haven't seen this before, and it might be worth just checking that these are in fact functional.


----------



## bpmurray

shahrincamille said:


> Now I noticed another iteration of the watch oneBay.
> 
> * Item 162737340291 *
> 
> Different hour and minute hands. Different case back:-d
> 
> eBay stuff never cease to amaze me:roll:
> 
> Shahrin b-)


Hi Shahrin,

Another fake, unfortunately. The dial has issues, but its easier to spot that the hands dead wrong. I think that with this dial, only a "snake" alarm hand is correct, not an arrow like in the above, and the hour/minute hands should be sharp triangles with teal paint. Crowns are also wrong, but we're splitting hairs at that point.

Keep looking! This is a very interesting, very wearable watch. These aren't super common, especially in good condition, but I think there are a few genuine ones on ebay currently. Keep in mind that you are looking for something made in the 1950's, so don't be afraid of some patina or wear.

Good luck!


----------



## Chascomm

Neruda said:


> What do you make of this movement?
> 
> View attachment 12649121
> 
> 
> And the big question, who is being naughty here?
> 
> I'll post more information soon, but I would like your first impressions just on the movement.


Looks like a Valjoux 7730 series. What's naughty about it?

--edit-- No, sorry; it's actually a Tissot 2070:
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Tissot_2070

...I guess the dial does not say 'Tissot'?


----------



## shahrincamille

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172960049538

Kosher?:-s

Shahrinb-)


----------



## schnurrp

shahrincamille said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/172960049538
> 
> Kosher?:-s
> 
> Shahrinb-)


Yes, in my opinion.


----------



## Dub Rubb

First off, let me thank you all for the help in the past, future and present. You have been a huge help getting into these watches. I have learned a bunch about Vostoks, but am now trying to branch out.

What do you guys think about this one? Thanks in advance comrades!


























Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## shahrincamille

Hi comrades,

This came in today, sold to me by a pretty lady eBayer from Serbia;-).

It's a pre-owned automatic 23-jeweled Poljot with day and date complications, and equipped with a date setting button at the 8 o'clock position to complement the crown at 3. No movement shots were taken by her, and the case back opener that I have on order had not arrived yet. The only watch-related equipment that I have in hand right now is a spring bar tool. Better this way I suppose - I'm curious, and complemented by a pair of "itchy" hands, would love nothing better than to take things apart, sometimes with a less than desirable outcomeo|. I still haven't found a replacement for the ink feed that I snapped in 2 that belonged to one of my ST Dupont fountain pens, and I was told that the price for said ink feed complements the prices one would expect for that brand (TL;DR = expensive):-d

















The ticking machine in the watch is possibly the Poljot 2627 (automatic, central second hand, date and day windows), but until I get the case back off we'll never know, don't we?;-). So far it seems to keep time well enough during these last few hours since I took possession of it.

I suspect this is possibly a monster (of the Franken variety), since the Latinised date does not seem to gel well with the overall Cyrillic theme, and I'm not sure whether the second hand is the correct one for this watch. Any experts here who can chime in?

Thanks.

Shahrinb-)


----------



## schnurrp

shahrincamille said:


> Hi comrades,
> 
> This came in today, sold to me by a pretty lady eBayer from Serbia;-).
> 
> It's a pre-owned automatic 23-jeweled Poljot with day and date complications, and equipped with a date setting button at the 8 o'clock position to complement the crown at 3. No movement shots were taken by her, and the case back opener that I have on order had not arrived yet. The only watch-related equipment that I have in hand right now is a spring bar tool. Better this way I suppose - I'm curious, and complemented by a pair of "itchy" hands, would love nothing better than to take things apart, sometimes with a less than desirable outcomeo|. I still haven't found a replacement for the ink feed that I snapped in 2 that belonged to one of my ST Dupont fountain pens, and I was told that the price for said ink feed complements the prices one would expect for that brand (TL;DR = expensive):-d
> 
> View attachment 12659657
> 
> 
> View attachment 12659659
> 
> 
> The ticking machine in the watch is possibly the Poljot 2627 (automatic, central second hand, date and day windows), but until I get the case back off we'll never know, don't we?;-). So far it seems to keep time well enough during these last few hours since I took possession of it.
> 
> I suspect this is possibly a monster (of the Franken variety), since the Latinised date does not seem to gel well with the overall Cyrillic theme, and I'm not sure whether the second hand is the correct one for this watch. Any experts here who can chime in?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Shahrinb-)


I agree with your assessment, comrade.

It's sometimes possible to turn the back ring with a screwdriver or some other such tool placed in one of the ring slots at an angle to push it around, if it's not on too tight. I've also used a pair of scissors with pointy enough tips placed in two opposing slots in the ring. This is a robust assembly unlikely to be broken. Scratches are another matter so be careful if you try.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I agree with your assessment, comrade.
> 
> It's sometimes possible to turn the back ring with a screwdriver or some other such tool placed in one of the ring slots at an angle to push it around, if it's not on too tight. I've also used a pair of scissors with pointy enough tips placed in two opposing slots in the ring. This is a robust assembly unlikely to be broken. Scratches are another matter so be careful if you try.


Forgot to mention that the Cyrillic word for "automatic" is found on the case back.


----------



## shahrincamille

schnurrp said:


> I agree with your assessment, comrade.
> 
> It's sometimes possible to turn the back ring with a screwdriver or some other such tool placed in one of the ring slots at an angle to push it around, if it's not on too tight. I've also used a pair of scissors with pointy enough tips placed in two opposing slots in the ring. This is a robust assembly unlikely to be broken. Scratches are another matter so be careful if you try.


Thanks for the suggestion, comrade|>. Not too worried about scratches - I got it real cheap practically low-balled the seller with my offer:-d

So far the watch had been pretty accurate, and still running despite the fact I still had not put in on my wrist yet, thus far. The bracelet is too large for my wrist, and it's filthy so it needs a good clean up lest I contract some skin disease on my wrist:-x. Would this watch be water resistant enough to withstand a couple of splashes, in case I decide to run the bracelet under the tap and give it a good scrub with an old toothbrush?:-s

Shahrin:roll:


----------



## schnurrp

shahrincamille said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, comrade|>. Not too worried about scratches - I got it real cheap practically low-balled the seller with my offer:-d
> 
> So far the watch had been pretty accurate, and still running despite the fact I still had not put in on my wrist yet, thus far. The bracelet is too large for my wrist, and it's filthy so it needs a good clean up lest I contract some skin disease on my wrist:-x. Would this watch be water resistant enough to withstand a couple of splashes, in case I decide to run the bracelet under the tap and give it a good scrub with an old toothbrush?:-s
> 
> Shahrin:roll:


Probably be okay but I wouldn't risk it. I would remove the band and replace it. A watch like this was not sold with a band so there's no telling where it came from and replacing it would not affect the authenticity, for me and it will be easier to clean the whole watch case with your toothbrush. with the band off. Usually a lot of "gunk" between the lugs.


----------



## mroatman

Dub Rubb said:


> What do you guys think about this one? Thanks in advance comrades!


It's definitely odd to see a lumed dial without lumed hands. I mean, think about the utility of that. Completely pointless.

I've got the Sekonda version of this model (with lumed hands).









And the catalog seems to indicated lumed hands as well.









That said, the watch looks fantastic and consistent otherwise, so I can't be positive.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> It's definitely odd to see a lumed dial without lumed hands. I mean, think about the utility of that. Completely pointless.
> 
> I've got the Sekonda version of this model (with lumed hands).
> 
> View attachment 12660009
> 
> 
> And the catalog seems to indicated lumed hands as well.
> 
> View attachment 12660011
> 
> 
> That said, the watch looks fantastic and consistent otherwise, so I can't be positive.


Yes, hard to figure how that happened. Maybe a mistake was made by a new assembler at First Moscow which is why it was never sold although with an engraved back I guess it was. It's possible the original buyer did not like the original hands and asked for those instead despite the utility (or a very carefully assembled "franken").


----------



## Dub Rubb

mroatman said:


> It's definitely odd to see a lumed dial without lumed hands. I mean, think about the utility of that. Completely pointless.
> 
> I've got the Sekonda version of this model (with lumed hands).
> 
> View attachment 12660009
> 
> 
> And the catalog seems to indicated lumed hands as well.
> 
> View attachment 12660011
> 
> 
> That said, the watch looks fantastic and consistent otherwise, so I can't be positive.


Thanks mroatman! I actually looked through your collection, and found the watch you posted as the closest to the one I was looking at. I was just unsure of the relationship between poljot and sekonda, and that maybe there were subtle differences.

However, you are right, the lumed dial without lumed hands is borderline comical ( as is Russian lume!).

Anyways, I think I am going to go ahead with the purchase as I still like the look of the watch and it has one of the better looking inscriptions I have seen.

Thanks again for the help, you guys are a huge part of why I am enjoying this new hobby!

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb

Sorry to clog up the thread, but it feels strange not having something coming in the mail.

This watch looks pretty good to me, but my knowledge of slavas is limited.

I found a similar one in mroatman's collection, but I see differences in the bezel and dial.

Thanks again for all the help comrades!




















Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chascomm

Dub Rubb said:


> However, you are right, the lumed dial without lumed hands is borderline comical


I'd rather have a watch where you have to guess the position of the markers, rather than one where you have to guess the position of the hands. Some people say they are equally useless, but I disagree (unless the watch is on somebody else's arm).


----------



## shahrincamille

shahrincamille said:


> Hi comrades,
> 
> This came in today, sold to me by a pretty lady eBayer from Serbia;-).
> 
> It's a pre-owned automatic 23-jeweled Poljot with day and date complications, and equipped with a date setting button at the 8 o'clock position to complement the crown at 3. No movement shots were taken by her, and the case back opener that I have on order had not arrived yet. The only watch-related equipment that I have in hand right now is a spring bar tool. Better this way I suppose - I'm curious, and complemented by a pair of "itchy" hands, would love nothing better than to take things apart, sometimes with a less than desirable outcomeo|. I still haven't found a replacement for the ink feed that I snapped in 2 that belonged to one of my ST Dupont fountain pens, and I was told that the price for said ink feed complements the prices one would expect for that brand (TL;DR = expensive):-d
> 
> View attachment 12659657
> 
> 
> View attachment 12659659
> 
> 
> The ticking machine in the watch is possibly the Poljot 2627 (automatic, central second hand, date and day windows), but until I get the case back off we'll never know, don't we?;-). So far it seems to keep time well enough during these last few hours since I took possession of it.
> 
> I suspect this is possibly a monster (of the Franken variety), since the Latinised date does not seem to gel well with the overall Cyrillic theme, and I'm not sure whether the second hand is the correct one for this watch. Any experts here who can chime in?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Shahrinb-)


As a follow-up to this interesting FrankenPoljot that I posted up yesterday, I managed to pop open the case back with the spring bar tool and found something interesting...









Instead of finding a 2627 in there, it's actually a 2616.2H.

But IIRC the 2616 should NOT have a DAY window. Thing is the day did change to Friday (today) from yesterday's Thursday, so implying that the day function is working in this watch. So does the 2616.2 version support the day function too?:think:

I cleaned up the watch with an old toothbrush and some liquid hand soap, after removing the bracelet. Yup, there's loads of gunk in between the lugs, and now the watch looks much better









I'm quite amazed by this watch's power reserve. I haven't worn it, shook it up just a few times yesterday (last shake:-d was at about 7pm yesterday, less than 10 times), and the watch only stopped this morning at about 9am|>

Shahrinb-)


----------



## shahrincamille

shahrincamille said:


> As a follow-up to this interesting FrankenPoljot that I posted up yesterday, I managed to pop open the case back with the spring bar tool and found something interesting...
> 
> View attachment 12662431
> 
> 
> Instead of finding a 2627 in there, it's actually a 2616.2H.
> 
> But IIRC the 2616 should NOT have a DAY window. Thing is the day did change to Friday (today) from yesterday's Thursday, so implying that the day function is working in this watch. So does the 2616.2 version support the day function too?:think:
> 
> I cleaned up the watch with an old toothbrush and some liquid hand soap, after removing the bracelet. Yup, there's loads of gunk in between the lugs, and now the watch looks much better
> 
> View attachment 12662441
> 
> 
> I'm quite amazed by this watch's power reserve. I haven't worn it, shook it up just a few times yesterday (last shake:-d was at about 7pm yesterday, less than 10 times), and the watch only stopped this morning at about 9am|>
> 
> Shahrinb-)


Perhaps there were 2616.2 movements with date and *day* function.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-RU...OLJOT-Mechanism-2616-2H-23jewels/182857563831

If that's the situation, perhaps russian-codes require a tweak?:think:

Shahrinb-)


----------



## mroatman

Dub Rubb said:


> However, you are right, the lumed dial without lumed hands is borderline comical ( as is Russian lume!).





Chascomm said:


> I'd rather have a watch where you have to guess the position of the markers, rather than one where you have to guess the position of the hands. Some people say they are equally useless, but I disagree (unless the watch is on somebody else's arm).


Then again, as Dub suggests, it's unlikely the lume is of that much use after all these years anyway.

I've found several examples of Soviet watches with lumed hands and unlumed dials, but only one instance of the other way around -- so it seems the Soviet designers agreed with you, Chas. You're right that functionally, they are not equal.



Dub Rubb said:


> Anyways, I think I am going to go ahead with the purchase as I still like the look of the watch and it has one of the better looking inscriptions I have seen.


I think I would have done the same, if the price was right. It looks great to me.


----------



## mroatman

Dub Rubb said:


> This watch looks pretty good to me, but my knowledge of slavas is limited.


Looks alright to me. It stands to reason that various dial colors were produced, including red.

































Personally, I still like to lume-lacking Poljot, if it's down to those two ?


----------



## mroatman

shahrincamille said:


> Perhaps there were 2616.2 movements with date and *day* function.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-RU...OLJOT-Mechanism-2616-2H-23jewels/182857563831
> If that's the situation, perhaps russian-codes require a tweak?:think:


Unlikely. The bridge with the caliber stamped on it is fully interchangeable between the 2616 and 2627, so more than likely someone has repaired/reconstructed these movements using replacement parts.

This happens from time to time -- most often with Vostoks, in my experience -- but doesn't mean the caliber has changed.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Unlikely. The bridge with the caliber stamped on it is fully interchangeable between the 2616 and 2627, so more than likely someone has repaired/reconstructed these movements using replacement parts.
> 
> This happens from time to time -- most often with Vostoks, in my experience -- but doesn't mean the caliber has changed.


That's right but in this case the bridge is part of the auto mechanism, even easier to change.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Looks alright to me. It stands to reason that various dial colors were produced, including red.
> 
> View attachment 12662539
> 
> 
> View attachment 12662541
> 
> 
> View attachment 12662543
> 
> 
> View attachment 12662545
> 
> 
> Personally, I still like to lume-lacking Poljot, if it's down to those two 


What gave me pause about the subject watch is the case. Here's a picture showing the case, upper right, on the same page as the more often seen one, lower left. No particular reason to be surprised that the arrow-head dial would be found in both cases, but it improves the chance, in my mind, that somebody switched cases after the fact.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> What gave me pause about the subject watch is the case.


Ah, I missed that those textured details on the bezel don't go all the way around on the watches I posted.


----------



## junkman

IS IT CORRECT?


----------



## schnurrp

junkman said:


> IS IT CORRECT?
> 
> View attachment 12663753
> View attachment 12663755


I would say so, yes.......although it needs a back.


----------



## lavantmj

Can I get an opinion on if this is authentic


----------



## Bostok

Theoretically I'd say yes, but if it comes from a certain "service vintage watches" I guess you should also consider the possibility of a carefully assembly of mixed original parts. 
Finding an original one with an uniform patina from a non professional seller/owner rest an alternative, often at a much lower price.


----------



## lavantmj

Or more importantly what are people's opinions on the movement. I assume some restoration has been done and I am ok with that, and thank you for the input bostok


----------



## Neruda

The "Geneva stripes", the lines left deliberately on the movement after polishing, all appear to line up correctly - suggesting that it is original. Movement matches the dial and production date fits the period when these were made by the First Moscow Watch Factory for Pobeda.


----------



## Sansoni7

Hi my friends.
Any informations about this Cmapm will be wellcome. The case is made from alluminiun.
Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

Sansoni7 said:


> Hi my friends.
> Any informations about this Cmapm will be wellcome. The case is made from alluminiun.
> Thanks


Appears to be an authentic START from the Second Moscow Watch Factory. These models had a unique case construction with an unconventional back and were made from aluminum coated with a gold finish of some kind, not plated. I assume there's a problem with the color of the picture.

See here.


----------



## Sansoni7

Hi *schnurrp
*Thank you very much for your help.yes, the watch has a gold finish.


----------



## schnurrp

Sansoni7 said:


> Hi *schnurrp
> *Thank you very much for your help.yes, the watch has a gold finish.


My pleasure, comrade.


----------



## Sansoni7

Any help about these will be appreciated:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-51.html#post44603573https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-50.html#post44596079


----------



## francisotooleart

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

























This is a recent purchase of mine from the website catawiki a Striela 1960 to 69 Chronograph wristwatch ,The seller had top marks and tells me everything about my purchase is fine etc , But for a watch from the 1960s something seems wrong ,i am verynew to watch collecting and am right now worried and a bit lost , Advice highly welcome ,I can take more detail images for anyone ,Theseare from purchase website


----------



## miroman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



francisotooleart said:


> View attachment 12672475
> View attachment 12672473
> View attachment 12672477
> View attachment 12672479
> 
> This is a recent purchase of mine from the website catawiki a Striela 1960 to 69 Chronograph wristwatch ,The seller had top marks and tells me everything about my purchase is fine etc , But for a watch from the 1960s something seems wrong ,i am verynew to watch collecting and am right now worried and a bit lost , Advice highly welcome ,I can take more detail images for anyone ,Theseare from purchase website


Fake dial, wrong central seconds hand, wrong case, chronograph bridge and hammer are from different movement, coupling clutch spring is replaced with a simple steel wire.... 
Maybe something else, but that's enough 

Regards, Miro.


----------



## schnurrp

Sansoni7 said:


> Any help about these will be appreciated:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-51.html#post44603573https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-50.html#post44596079


Both from the '80s and generally look fine. Slava is missing its day wheel or there is a problem with it. The Slava automatic movement is not one of the better ones, vintage examples often not working. There's something about buying an automatic watch with a heavily worn crown that is unsettling, when you think about it.


----------



## Neruda

Franiscotooleart - Looks to me as if the chronograph bridge is a replacement. The metal is a slightly different colour, the shape is different, and all I have seen are stamped with "19 jewels" in Cyrillic or English. Perhaps it's a variation I haven't come across - hopefully someone can confirm!


----------



## Sansoni7

schnurrp said:


> Both from the '80s and generally look fine. Slava is missing its day wheel or there is a problem with it. The Slava automatic movement is not one of the better ones, vintage examples often not working. There's something about buying an automatic watch with a heavily worn crown that is unsettling, when you think about it.


Thank you for your help and advice. |>

_____________

Any help about this one will be appreciated:


----------



## schnurrp

Sansoni7 said:


> Thank you for your help and advice. |>
> 
> _____________
> 
> Any help about this one will be appreciated:


That one looks good. From '83 catalog:









There's also a version with a simple round case: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipMoOL1qA8bSZwVHMOn_wIr2jMl2iWQsozCJiOpb


----------



## Sansoni7

Thanks again *schnurrp.*


----------



## junkman

Hi, you can help me with these two, I have searched catalogs and I have not found anything.


----------



## VWatchie

Comrades, some time ago this watch (see the images below) was given to me as a present by someone who knew I was very much into Russian watches (especially Vostok Komandirskies and Amphibians). I was of course extremely delighted, not just because of the gesture but because it was a Vostok Komandirske Blue Submarine _*Automatic!
*_
If I had only seen the dial side I would most definitely had assumed a 2414 movement, but as it turs out it actually has a 2416B movement. Well, I haven't actually opened it up it yet, but what other (somewhat contemporary) Vostok movement is an automatic with a date complication?!

As I understood it, it was originally bought in a shop in Stockholm, Sweden (where I live), sometime during the first half of the 90-ties, and has spent most of the last 25 years or so hidden in a drawer, probably because the buckle had broken and no one bothered to change or repair it (original Vostok blue rubber strap). The crystal was rather faded but two minutes of polishing with some toothpaste and a bit of Polywatch took care of it.

Now for the big question; I've been scanning the Internet (well mostly eBay) for the last several weeks looking for a similar watch but haven't found any. I'm pretty certain it's legit as the case back reads "automatic" (according to Google translate "WATERPROOFING AUTOMOTIVE") but of course I can't be 100 % sure about that. Anyway, it would seem to me that this automatic version could be pretty rare. So what do you think, legit (and rare?) or a Franken? Thanks!


----------



## Neruda

24 Hours - nice watch and I believe, completely authentic. Vostok have made a number of automatic Komandirskies over the years (and still do). Your example with the dolphin caseback corresponds to the 1990s, and the lack of "made in Russia" suggests to me a date circa 1992-1995. Not exceptionally rare, but not one of the most common models either.


----------



## mariomart

The automatic Komandirskie case is often referred to as the Generalskie case. Great gift


----------



## schnurrp

junkman said:


> Hi, you can help me with these two, I have searched catalogs and I have not found anything.
> View attachment 12673973
> View attachment 12673975
> 
> 
> View attachment 12673979
> View attachment 12673981


I don't see any particular reason to reject these as not authentic since they don't appear to be made up of parts from other watches, but I've never seen them before and I was not able to find them in any catalogs. I wouldn't be particularly interested in buying unless the price was right or someone else had one in their collection.


----------



## VWatchie

Neruda said:


> 24 Hours - nice watch and I believe, completely authentic. Vostok have made a number of automatic Komandirskies over the years (and still do). Your example with the dolphin caseback corresponds to the 1990s, and the lack of "made in Russia" suggests to me a date circa 1992-1995. Not exceptionally rare, but not one of the most common models either.





mariomart said:


> The automatic Komandirskie case is often referred to as the Generalskie case. Great gift


Thank you for this very interesting information! I'm not using it until I've serviced it (don't want to take any risks), but it's amazing that after decades of not being used it starts to tick as soon as I just pick it up and move it around a bit! These Vostok movements are amazing!


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Thank you for this very interesting information! I'm not using it until I've serviced it (don't want to take any risks), but it's amazing that after decades of not being used it starts to tick as soon as I just pick it up and move it around a bit! These Vostok movements are amazing!


What risks? A mechanical watch movement like that will stop functioning long before any damage can be done by a lack of service. If it's running and keeping decent time I don't see any reason not to use it.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> What risks? A mechanical watch movement like that will stop functioning long before any damage can be done by a lack of service. If it's running and keeping decent time I don't see any reason not to use it.


Not sure what I meant exactly! It's ticking alright, but I haven't put it on my Timegrapher so I really don't know how well it's doing. Not ever having been serviced (I would pretty safely assume) I simply assumed the lubrication/oils would be "expired" affecting amplitude, wear on pinions, and so on and so forth. It could be that I'm misinformed about the longevity of watch oils. All I know is that all my Moebius watch oils have and expiration date. I guess I was thinking servicing it would eliminate any risks of the movement not performing optimally or any risks of unnecessary wear. Anyway, I'm just a hobbyist, and I don't have lot of experience (as you well know). So as I said, these are just my assumptions!


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Not sure what I meant exactly! It's ticking alright, but I haven't put it on my Timegrapher so I really don't know how well it's doing. Not ever having been serviced (I would pretty safely assume) I simply assumed the lubrication/oils would be "expired" affecting amplitude, wear and tear on pinions, and so on and so forth. It could be that I'm misinformed about the longevity of watch oils. All I know is that all my Moebius watch oils have and expiration date. I guess I was thinking servicing it would eliminate any risks of the movement not performing optimally or any risks of unnecessary wear and tear. Anyway, I'm just a hobbyist, and I don't have lot of experience (as you well know). So as I said, these are just my assumptions!


Yes, I realize that and I was just trying to point out that your assumptions are incorrect. You have a timegrapher and you're going to put a working watch in for a service without even seeing how it's functioning? Afraid of wear and tear on your timegrapher?


----------



## ThePossumKing

I know it's little expensive, but is it real??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/V-RARE-Col...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Yes, I realize that and I was just trying to point out that your assumptions are incorrect.


So, do you mean that the quality of, or even the lack of, oils/lubrication has no impact on the wear of the movement? If the answer is yes I will not question it (as I said I'm indeed a novice), but I would appreciate if you could elaborate as I find it unlikely when trying to reason it.



schnurrp said:


> You have a timegrapher and you're going to put a working watch in for a service without even seeing how it's functioning?


Well no, I will put it on the Timegrapher before I start the service so as to be able to compare the results, but even if it performs flawlessly I will service it for the pleasure of servicing (it has a therapeutic effect on my soul) and for the pleasure of knowing it has fresh oils. Plus, I just bet it will have a positive effect on the amplitude, but of course that remains to be seen.



schnurrp said:


> Afraid of wear and tear on your timegrapher?


Well of course not! Now you're just being silly! ;-)


----------



## schnurrp

24 Hours said:


> Well of course not! Now you're just being silly! ;-)


Yes, you are right, comrade, and thanks for being a good sport.

I am usually very curious about my new acquisitions and can't wait to see what their performance is on the timegrapher.

As far as wear is concerned, the forces in a mechanical watch are so small (even a slight contact of the second hand with another hand or the dial face is enough to stop everything) that the lack of proper lubrication and/or presence of dust or dirt brings the gear train to a stop long before the friction between the metal gear shafts and the bearings have a chance to do any harm. I have never heard a knowledgeable watchmaker (I'm a rank amateur) warn against running a watch with an unknown service record.

If you are contemplating doing the service yourself, that's different. Have at it. I thought you were going to have it serviced by someone else.


----------



## Alhdzsz

I am quite new to watch collection and I can across this in a vintage shop in Bishkek, it says USSR in Latin so I am a bit worried it could be a Frankenstein :$ thoughts?


----------



## Alhdzsz

Almost forgot, I also found this vintage Komandirskie! Can't tell if it is Propper USSR made or a later version though (it does seem like it's been through a lot!)


----------



## schnurrp

Alhdzsz said:


> I am quite new to watch collection and I can across this in a vintage shop in Bishkek, it says USSR in Latin so I am a bit worried it could be a Frankenstein :$ thoughts?


I assume it has a sub-second dial, comrade, and if it does it's a 17 jewel 2605 Vostok from the mid to late '70s like the one pictured below from the '77 catalog. However it appears to have an incorrect set of hands.

If it doesn't have a sub-second dial then it's missing its second hand and I've never seen that dial in that configuaration.

I wouldn't be interested unless it was keeping good time and quite cheap: < $20.


----------



## Alhdzsz

Thank you very much for the info! It does have a sub second dial, which is what I found interesting about it  I bought it for 25 USD approx and thankfully it is keeping time quite well. Hopefully for my next purchase I will be able to bargain for under 20


----------



## svorkoetter

schnurrp said:


> As far as wear is concerned, the forces in a mechanical watch are so small (even a slight contact of the second hand with another hand or the dial face is enough to stop everything) that the lack of proper lubrication and/or presence of dust or dirt brings the gear train to a stop long before the friction between the metal gear shafts and the bearings have a chance to do any harm.


Yes, the forces involved are small, but so are the tolerances. It's all relative. Running a watch with no oil will do as much damage, relatively speaking, as running a large machine with no oil. Sure, you may wear only one micrometer off of a pivot before it stops, but that's a lot of damage on such a tiny machine. A watch that has been sitting for 25 years should definitely be serviced before being run extensively (it's okay to run it for a short time to measure its performance).


----------



## bpmurray

ThePossumKing said:


> I know it's little expensive, but is it real??
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/V-RARE-Col...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


Looks great to me, other than the price. Mine has different hands, but others have the same as this (see mroatman's below). FYI, it's a small watch at 33mm.

There is a nicer on one Meshok, for a fraction of the cost: Meshok Tochmeh. 
I haven't seen those hands before, but I have no reason to doubt that they are genuine. The seller is offering worldwide delivery, so possibly a Russian-speaking comrade here could help you out. I've had a lot of luck by asking in a separate post on the forum, or through a few other contacts (who charge a small commission). PM me if you'd like an introduction. Good luck!









Mroatman's is identical (I'm pretty sure his crown is a replacement):


----------



## francisotooleart

Hi I purchased this watch as a genuine strela 3017 from the early 1960s ,The seller had a high ranking on catawiki, I would really appreciate you guys opinions on this watch ,i am very new to collecting timepieces ,all the best
























,


----------



## miroman

francisotooleart said:


> Hi I purchased this watch as a genuine strela 3017 from the early 1960s ,The seller had a high ranking on catawiki, I would really appreciate you guys opinions on this watch ,i am very new to collecting timepieces ,all the best
> View attachment 12685223
> View attachment 12685225
> View attachment 12685227
> View attachment 12685229
> ,
> View attachment 12685221


As I wrote to your first post:

fake dial, wrong central seconds hand, wrong case, chronograph bridge and hammer are from different movement, coupling clutch spring is replaced with a simple steel wire.... 
Maybe something else, but that's enough 

Regards, Miro.


----------



## mroatman

ThePossumKing said:


> I know it's little expensive, but is it real??
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/V-RARE-Col...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649





bpmurray said:


> Looks great to me, other than the price. Mine has different hands, but others have the same as this (see mroatman's below).


To be fair, the Gostrest on eBay has a different number font and must be a bit more rare, since the three other cited examples on this page all share the same style numbers. Still, I don't think this justifies the $650 asking price.

And yes, I agree that my crown is replaced. Might have to do something about that...


----------



## cptwalker

Opinions on this one? Authentic?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-RA...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


----------



## Sansoni7

Hi.
Any informations about this watch, will be appriceated.
Brand, year, fake....?
Thanks.


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness

Is this Gagarin Type 2 17J legit?

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/shturmanskie-type-1-shturmanskie-type-2-gagarin-4571275.html

I've never seen he 17J models with the three letter year engraving on it before, only the 15Js. This one has 1-57.


----------



## schnurrp

Sansoni7 said:


> Hi.
> Any informations about this watch, will be appriceated.
> Brand, year, fake....?
> Thanks.


Looks like a Ural from the Chelyabinsk Watch Factory, aluminum case with a gold coating of some kind, probably made in the late '50s early '60s with 3602 movement. Here's mine with 3600 movement (no second hand): https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=UnhoWDZxdTBhXzV0VnI5YmlBVXNnVVJ2NFhGSnNR


----------



## Sansoni7

Hi
Any help about this:

Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2 - Page 55

Thank you.


----------



## schnurrp

Did you see #551?


----------



## schnurrp

Is this Gagarin Type 2 17J legit?

Shturmanskie Type 1, Shturmanskie Type 2 Gagarin

I've never seen he 17J models with the three letter year engraving on it before, only the 15Js. This one has 1-57.

What is shown looks okay. Crystal replaced and, of course, it has been re-lumed (some collectors don't like this). No good dial picture provided.

There is no agreement on the date question that I know of but most agree that the movement is the same as that found in the Sportivnie and some have date, some don't. That would not stop me from buying an otherwise good example.


----------



## Sansoni7

schnurrp said:


> Did you see #551?


Nooooooooooooo, my friend *schnurrp*.
_________________
The seller says that the case is metal, it is not aluminum ...
How much is the watch worth?
The link you placed does not work.
Thank you

Sorry, and thank you ver much....


----------



## schnurrp

Try this: https://photos.app.goo.gl/r7BzAd15ddnDaEGA3

Notice on your example the exposed substrate metal is not brass. These were aluminum with gold "coating". Your example is also missing the hand lume, the dial is not so good, and the crown, which is often replaced, is an ugly one. I think you can do better as these are not very rare. <$70 or even cheaper if you are patient. Mine was $45/delvd.


----------



## Sansoni7

*Schnurrp*...thank you very muchs for your help.


----------



## XsiOn

Hi friends,

Is this RadioRoom legit?




























Thanks,
Peter


----------



## bpmurray

XsiOn said:


> Hi friends,
> 
> Is this RadioRoom legit?
> 
> Thanks,
> Peter


Looks fine to me, but I'm not super knowledgeable about these. It looks like that's from Ilya (banqq2), if so, he's been a trustworthy and reliable seller for me in the past.


----------



## schnurrp

Me, too. Isn't there supposed to be some writing on the main bridge in red or is that only on the type 320?


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

It's pretty obvious, I guess, that this watch wasn't manufactured between 1970 and 1979, right? But, is it legit? Judging by the pictures, the condition seems to be excellent and if there's nothing fishy about it I might want to buy it. eBay listing here. (Can't insert images as it hangs my browser...?)


----------



## jfbl

I was wondering if these two watches are legit.https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Mens-...139232?hash=item33dabcd020:g:swAAAOSw2GlZ2jKc


----------



## schnurrp

"I was wondering if these two watches are legit.https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Mens-M...AAAOSw2GlZ2jKc"

I only see one but it looks legit to me. Several versions can be found in a 1970 caalog: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipOGH4GoUZZXhpI2wgN7znjgNSCULDDeQzPElKDs


----------



## jfbl

It can indeed. Thanks. Sorry, the other one didn't post. Here it is:https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Mens-...139232?hash=item33dabcd020:g:swAAAOSw2GlZ2jKc


----------



## schnurrp

I don't have a ZIM catalog with that in it but it looks entirely legit. They seemed to have turned out a different design every week. Nice condition but these go cheap so price is right. These often run good so make good 'beater' watches if you want to stay authentic.


----------



## jfbl

schnurrp said:


> I don't have a ZIM catalog with that in it but it looks entirely legit. They seemed to have turned out a different design every week. Nice condition but these go cheap so price is right. These often run good so make good 'beater' watches if you want to stay authentic.


That's good. How long will these watches last, assuming a recent servicing?


----------



## schnurrp

That's good. How long will these watches last, assuming a recent servicing? 

Impossible to say but this is a plain version of the k-26 movement introduced just after wwII. Fully jeweled with very little to go wrong; keep it dry and clean (consider this a dress watch) and don't throw it down on a hard surface and it should last indefinitely. Plenty "Pobedas" and others with a fancier finished versions of the same movement from the fifties in collections that are working fine.


----------



## Clockworkblueorange

Is this 320 legit or not ?

View attachment 12696253


View attachment 12696255


View attachment 12696259


View attachment 12696261


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness

Any thoughts on the following Gagarin Sturmanskie Type 2 17J?


----------



## bpmurray

CyanideAndHappiness said:


> Any thoughts on the following Gagarin Sturmanskie Type 2 17J?


Looks good from what you can see. Hands are correct style and color, crown is correct shape, dial is correct (no "sparkles"). Would like to see a movement pic to be confident from that front. And the seller probably won't do it, but a shot of the edge of the dial outside of the case would put all doubt to rest, to be 100% certain that you aren't getting a filed-down 15j dial (see: this monster thread).

Good luck!


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness

Not sure why some of the pictures aren't showing up. But here is the movement.


----------



## ThePossumKing

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



VWatchie said:


> It's pretty obvious, I guess, that this watch wasn't manufactured between 1970 and 1979, right? But, is it legit? Judging by the pictures, the condition seems to be excellent and if there's nothing fishy about it I might want to buy it. eBay listing here. (Can't insert images as it hangs my browser...?)


I'm pretty sure that it is in the wrong case


----------



## ThePossumKing

That dial looks fishy to me. It looks like it has been freshly printed on paper and then glued onto the old dial. There are a few eBay sellers that are notorious for doing that


----------



## Neruda

VWatchie - these paratrooper komandirskies with the same case and bezel do exist, but whether they are correct is difficult to say with certainty. One feature they all seem to share as a group is the Amphibian meatball second hand - other dial/bezel combinations seen to all have the simple Komandirskie second hand. So perhaps this is evidence to suggest this was a legitimate lot put out by the factory - but equally it could just prove they were all frankened by the same guy at the same time. Personally I'd go with the probability it is genuine but unless the model appears in a catalogue, comes with a watertight passport, or some credible history, you may never be 100% certain.

Here is a link to a video of a very similar version, except it is "made in USSR" not the 3aka3 version:


----------



## schnurrp

1990 catalog on the left: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipPc7CJR01f7VoeNHCzBRTiYEQNP36FrPqMdXc3i


----------



## jfbl

Is this legit? Also, does anyone know what the double headed eagle is? I know it's the Russian imperial eagle, but doesn't fit the pictures I find online exactly. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Russian-PO...192513?hash=item5452403541:g:LggAAOSwySVaCJ57


----------



## jfbl

Also, is this watch: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-so...540739?hash=item544ff26dc3:g:n6sAAOSwxZhZ0S3c


----------



## jfbl

and this watch: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-sovie...555907?hash=item1ebf109d03:g:2psAAOSwa~BYbVIX legit. Sorry for spam but somehow I can't post more than one link in one comment.


----------



## schnurrp

jfbl said:


> Is this legit? Also, does anyone know what the double headed eagle is? I know it's the Russian imperial eagle, but doesn't fit the pictures I find online exactly. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Russian-PO...192513?hash=item5452403541:g:LggAAOSwySVaCJ57


Probably (and that's about as close as one can come with these) an early '90s ZIM. Looks original but that's all I can say. The Russian eagle is found in many, many versions: https://www.google.com/search?q=Rus...ruvXAhXM8YMKHfgbCF8Q_AUICigB&biw=1680&bih=956.


----------



## schnurrp

jfbl said:


> and this watch: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-sovie...555907?hash=item1ebf109d03:g:2psAAOSwa~BYbVIX legit. Sorry for spam but somehow I can't post more than one link in one comment.


Found in a 1970 catalog with ZIM's version of the 41-M movement which is listed as a 2608. That one has a decent case. I believe those ZIMs had the worst chrome plating of all the soviet watches.


----------



## VWatchie

ThePossumKing said:


> That dial looks fishy to me. It looks like it has been freshly printed on paper and then glued onto the old dial. There are a few eBay sellers that are notorious for doing that


Thanks for the input! What precisely makes you suspect a paper dial? What details are you looking at? Being a novice it sure looks like metal to me. The thing that made me suspecious was that, except for the lume, it looks more or less like brand new. (assuming your post is in response to my post!?)


----------



## Neruda

JFBL - your eagle is an interpretation of what was originally the coat of arms of the Imperial Russian Empire in use from the late 19th Century to the Revolution in 1917. The small shields are the various provinces which formed the empire and don't appear on the shield used personally by the Tsar and family.


----------



## jfbl

schnurrp said:


> Found in a 1970 catalog with ZIM's version of the 41-M movement which is listed as a 2608. That one has a decent case. I believe those ZIMs had the worst chrome plating of all the soviet watches.
> View attachment 12701003


Ah thanks. Will the chrome plating (or lack thereof) present any issues other than cosmetic ones?


----------



## junkman

SOMEONE KNOWS THIS CALIBER


----------



## schnurrp

jfbl said:


> Ah thanks. Will the chrome plating (or lack thereof) present any issues other than cosmetic ones?


Like what? I've never noticed that the condition of the case finish had anything to do with any other problem the watch may be exhibiting other than cases made from brass like that ZIM when they lose their chrome plating through wear and tear are subject to a possible erosion of the brass from prolonged exposure to a salty liquid like sweat. Obviously we are talking about a lot of strenuous use for this to occur. I would treat that ZIM as a dress watch and keep it dry and clean and since it is not shock protected don't throw it down on the floor.

Here's a picture of a Raketa that has lost some chrome plating, has received a lot of sweaty use, and has begun to lose brass material:


----------



## schnurrp

junkman said:


> SOMEONE KNOWS THIS CALIBER
> 
> View attachment 12701161
> View attachment 12701167


Zarja 2009.b 21j

bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Zaria 2009B


----------



## junkman

schnurrp; said:


> Zarja 2009.b 21j
> 
> bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Zaria 2009B


Thank you very much, as always ... very friendly and perfect.:-!


----------



## VWatchie

Neruda said:


> VWatchie - these paratrooper komandirskies with the same case and bezel do exist, but whether they are correct is difficult to say with certainty. One feature they all seem to share as a group is the Amphibian meatball second hand - other dial/bezel combinations seen to all have the simple Komandirskie second hand. So perhaps this is evidence to suggest this was a legitimate lot put out by the factory - but equally it could just prove they were all frankened by the same guy at the same time. Personally I'd go with the probability it is genuine but unless the model appears in a catalogue, comes with a watertight passport, or some credible history, you may never be 100% certain.
> 
> Here is a link to a video of a very similar version, except it is "made in USSR" not the 3aka3 version:





schnurrp said:


> 1990 catalog on the left: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipPc7CJR01f7VoeNHCzBRTiYEQNP36FrPqMdXc3i


Thank you very much comrades! Your input is invaluable (as always) and helped me reach a decision, this time to buy it. When asking the seller (tdn74-2008) about the authenticity this is the reply I got:

_"(---)I am as you talked with __expert__ of __Soviet__ watch and he said to me that wristwatch is 100% original. The dial of the wristwatch is metal and without any paper. It is not my wristwatch, (---)."_

I realize all of this still doesn't consitute a guarantee, so I'm certainly not holding anyone responsible, and if in the end it turns out not to be legit I certainly won't kill myself over it but enjoy it just the same.

Anyway, basically just wanted to let you know how much your expertise and input is appreciated! :-!


----------



## Bostok

Any info/thoughts on this particular Poljot model and case?


----------



## schnurrp

Bostok said:


> Any info/thoughts on this particular Poljot model and case?


I have one, subject of this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/ive-never-seen-watch-like-before-4010346.html; appears to be authentic, your example being the third one I've seen.


----------



## Bostok

Thank you, actually in your thread better pictures can be found, with the original announce, from a seller in Romania:



heimdalg said:


> Another here. Gold plated in my opinion.
> Ceas de mana Poljot. Poljot rar. Ceasuri de mana Poljot - Ceasuri de mana
> I do not know the seller and do not recommend it.


Interesting watch, never seen one like it either.


----------



## jfbl

Is this watch legit?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-so...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648


----------



## Chascomm

jfbl said:


> Is this watch legit?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-so...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648


To my eye's it looks like a genuine Pobeda made by ZiM in Samara some time between 1992 and 1998. And I noticed that it has sold already.


----------



## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> Opinions on this one? Authentic?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-RA...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


I don't think anyone replied to you before, but in my opinion, yes, totally authentic. A nice little ladies watch. Did you nab it?



















Clockworkblueorange said:


> Is this 320 legit or not ?


In my opinion, no.


----------



## cptwalker

mroatman said:


> I don't think anyone replied to you before, but in my opinion, yes, totally authentic. A nice little ladies watch. Did you nab it?
> 
> View attachment 12706553
> 
> 
> View attachment 12706563
> 
> 
> In my opinion, no.


Yes I nabbed it 

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


----------



## jfbl

Are these three watches legit?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ru...051908?hash=item3af89ba084:g:IxYAAOSwsXFZHjTX

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ru...051912?hash=item3af89ba088:g:aqUAAOSwAO9ZPVAz

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ru...250966?hash=item3d51ac4b16:g:Z2UAAOSwyXNZ-Sk2


----------



## junkman

Does this caliber have many pieces replaced?

zim 2608 or 2609


----------



## mroatman

junkman said:


> Does this caliber have many pieces replaced?


None, by the looks of it.

But that top case screw needs tightening.


----------



## schnurrp

Bostok said:


> Thank you, actually in your thread better pictures can be found, with the original announce, from a seller in Romania:
> 
> Interesting watch, never seen one like it either.


Ah, so that Romanian's is the watch you are referring to? If so, then I've only seen two.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, what do you think about this zvezda, i think all parts are original, but the dial is in very good condition, and It make me doubt

Many thanks in advance










Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, what do you think about this zvezda, i think all parts are original, but the dial is in very good condition, and It make me doubt
> 
> Many thanks in advance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


I wouldn't worry about it, comrade, looks okay to me.


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> I wouldn't worry about it, comrade, looks okay to me.


Many many thanks fellow, do you know if it work for a man thin wrist? Or it's foto woman?

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Many many thanks fellow, do you know if it work for a man thin wrist? Or it's foto woman?
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


It is listed in the catalog as a woman's watch but more than that I don't think the shape, which I have never seen on a watch made for a man, would work.

It's a personal decision but I wouldn't wear it. I love the Zvezda men's watches which are rectangular, a shape often seen on men's watches as well as lady's watches.


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> It is listed in the catalog as a woman's watch but more than that I don't think the shape, which I have never seen on a watch made for a man, would work.
> 
> It's a personal decision but I wouldn't wear it. I love the Zvezda men's watches which are rectangular, a shape often seen on men's watches as well as lady's watches.


Many thanks Schnurrp, i like both, and i want both haha if it works on a men wrist of course. And this one is in very good condition


----------



## jfbl

Do these three watches seem legit?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PO...892421?hash=item1c9828c2c5:g:xdsAAOSwY~1aDY8C

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-ZI...676580?hash=item1c979c2364:g:1CgAAOSwcdRY9y9h

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PO...828235?hash=item1a39ad9a4b:g:6p4AAOSweW5U6Fln


----------



## schnurrp

jfbl said:


> Do these three watches seem legit?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PO...892421?hash=item1c9828c2c5:g:xdsAAOSwY~1aDY8C
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-ZI...676580?hash=item1c979c2364:g:1CgAAOSwcdRY9y9h
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PO...828235?hash=item1a39ad9a4b:g:6p4AAOSweW5U6Fln


All look good to me.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> It is listed in the catalog as a woman's watch but more than that I don't think the shape, which I have never seen on a watch made for a man, would work.
> It's a personal decision but I wouldn't wear it. I love the Zvezda men's watches which are rectangular, a shape often seen on men's watches as well as lady's watches.





Victorv said:


> Many thanks Schnurrp, i like both, and i want both haha if it works on a men wrist of course. And this one is in very good condition


It's been done before: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/zvezda-zvezda-4069434.html#post39246090


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> It's been done before: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/zvezda-zvezda-4069434.html#post39246090


Now that spectacular dial does make one want to give it a try, that's for sure. Why didn't they make one for the tank?!?


----------



## Victorv

mroatman said:


> It's been done before: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/zvezda-zvezda-4069434.html#post39246090


Many thanks dear Dashiell, finally i'm not going to buy it, i've been reading these threads and my conclusion is that is too small. Many thanks fellow


----------



## Bostok

Just bought, I must admit, without much knowledge or even documentation, my first Kirovskie. 
As it was a low financial risk transaction (less then 20 dollars), could you please in all objectivity  pre- validate or not the authenticity?
Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

Bostok said:


> Just bought, I must admit, without much knowledge or even documentation, my first Kirovskie.
> As it was a low financial risk transaction (less then 20 dollars), could you please in all objectivity  pre- validate or not the authenticity?
> Thanks


I don't see anything to complain about from that single view, comrade. Is there a movement picture or perhaps movement was not included at such a low price. Looks like a good deal.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, what's about this Pobeda? I think all is original, i'm in doubt with the crown







Many thanks in advance


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, what's about this Pobeda? I think all is original, i'm in doubt with the crown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks in advance


Crown looks okay to me; again, no movement picture.


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> Crown looks okay to me; again, no movement picture.


Many thanks comrade, the seller don't have any picture of the movemenr, I'll ask him for It, and i will show It for your opinion. I'm a bit loose in pobedas

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


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## mroatman

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, what's about this Pobeda? I think all is original, i'm in doubt with the crown
> 
> Many thanks in advance


Looks good. That's a rather less-common dial signature at the bottom. Let's how there's a 2MWF movement inside.


----------



## mroatman

Bostok said:


> Just bought, I must admit, without much knowledge or even documentation, my first Kirovskie.
> As it was a low financial risk transaction (less then 20 dollars), could you please in all objectivity  pre- validate or not the authenticity?
> Thanks





schnurrp said:


> I don't see anything to complain about from that single view, comrade. Is there a movement picture or perhaps movement was not included at such a low price. Looks like a good deal.


Agreed, a beauty, and at under $20, a steal to boot!


----------



## Bostok

schnurrp said:


> I don't see anything to complain about from that single view, comrade. Is there a movement picture or perhaps movement was not included at such a low price. Looks like a good deal.





mroatman said:


> Agreed, a beauty, and at under $20, a steal to boot!


Thank you both, the caseback seems fine, and should have an original and functional movement. The dial looks very nice and I wanted to have an expert opinion for an ever possible fake, I don't really see the "made in CCCP" at the bottom, maybe it's the crystal or it was damaged in an attempted cleaning? We'll see all that when it arrives, thank you for the initial (positive) input |>


----------



## mroatman

Bostok said:


> Thank you both, the caseback seems fine, and should have an original and functional movement. The dial looks very nice and I wanted to have an expert opinion for an ever possible fake, I don't really see the "made in CCCP" at the bottom, maybe it's the crystal or it was damaged in an attempted cleaning? We'll see all that when it arrives, thank you for the initial (positive) input |>


Wouldn't worry about it. That dial is authentic, whether Сделано в СССР is visible or not.


----------



## Straight_time

mroatman said:


> Bostok said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you both, the caseback seems fine, and should have an original and functional movement. The dial looks very nice and I wanted to have an expert opinion for an ever possible fake, I don't really see the "made in CCCP" at the bottom, maybe it's the crystal or it was damaged in an attempted cleaning? We'll see all that when it arrives, thank you for the initial (positive) input
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't worry about it. That dial is authentic, whether Сделано в СССР is visible or not.
Click to expand...

The Сделано в СССР writing should have been introduced approx. towards 1957-58, and I believe it correctly doesn't appear on the dial because this Kirovskie is older than that.


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> The Сделано в СССР writing should have been introduced approx. towards 1957-58, and I believe it correctly doesn't appear on the dial because this Kirovskie is older than that.


----------



## Straight_time

Precisely what I was trying to point out, Comrade.

Comrade Boctok's example must have been produced before the introduction of the _Сделано в СССР _marking, while Dashiell's one is subsequent.

You'll certainly notice that the _1МЧЗ им КИРОВА_ marking is differently spaced and positioned in respect to the minutes scale, thus meaning that those watches are NOT the same identical model (where, on one of the two, the _Сделано_ marking had been erased with time or is simply missing), but actually belong to **separate batches** where dials had been restyled. 
AFAIK is a pattern noticeable also on other models of that period (Sportivnies and Mockbas are those which come to my mind first).


----------



## Bostok

Interesting point and thank you for your interest, I will certainly post detailed pictures when it arrives, movement included. 
Nevertheless, there is an other Kirovskie with exactly the same dial in the mroatman's collection with the _Сделано в СССР _marking, I tend to think on mine's it's not visible in the picture because of the crystal.


----------



## naPoelion

I am very intrigued by the design of the Raketa Kopernik with the white dial and numbers on the dial. I am considering buying one, only one problem: I don't know how to spot a real one and a Franken.

On the first picture you see the Raketa logo under the 12, the second one doesnt have it.

Which dial is real and which isnt?














Verstuurd vanaf mijn Z2 Plus met Tapatalk


----------



## Neruda

NaPoelion - There are dozens of variations of these watches - and I think both may be original as far as can be seen. The first logo is in fact the Soviet quality stamp which appears on different brands/models of Soviet watches at different times. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_quality_mark_of_the_USSR


----------



## naPoelion

I did not know that! Thank you for your quick response!

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Z2 Plus met Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> Precisely what I was trying to point out, Comrade.
> Comrade Boctok's example must have been produced before the introduction of the _Сделано в СССР _marking, while Dashiell's one is subsequent.





Bostok said:


> Interesting point and thank you for your interest, I will certainly post detailed pictures when it arrives, movement included.
> Nevertheless, there is an other Kirovskie with exactly the same dial in the mroatman's collection with the _Сделано в СССР _marking, I tend to think on mine's it's not visible in the picture because of the crystal.


Straight_time is correct, I think. Also notice the font weight. The numbers on my watch are lighten/thinner, while the printing on Bostok's example is a bit heavier.









So yeah, two different dial batches for sure.


----------



## mroatman

naPoelion said:


> On the first picture you see the Raketa logo under the 12, the second one doesnt have it.


The second example actually does have it (99.9% certainty), but the logo is simply covered by the hour hand. Both are legitimate.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Yes, I believe black hands should appear at least as black as the printing on the dial. I think that's a good price for that, particularly if it's running well, which I hope it is.


Now that I have the watch I can inform you that the hands are not gilded or black, but dark gray, almost black, but not quite. I would have expected them to be gilded. I don't think the original color has faded, but I would have to take a closer look using my stereo microscope to form a more precise opinion.


----------



## VWatchie

Expert comrades, can you tell me what this case is made of (see below)? Is it coated (PVD) stainless steel, brass, or...? The reason I'm asking is that I'd like to try to polish/buff/refinish it using these refinishing pads and I worry that I might polish off the "golden" surface.


----------



## schnurrp

VWatchie said:


> Expert comrades, can you tell me what this case is made of (see below)? Is it coated (PVD) stainless steel, brass, or...? The reason I'm asking is that I'd like to try to polish/buff/refinish it using these refinishing pads and I worry that I might polish off the "golden" surface.
> 
> View attachment 12726465
> [/
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I wouldn't do that. Just a good soak in warm water and detergent followed by a toothbrush and then buff with a soft acrylic cloth. It is really not possible to remove scratches from anything other than solid materials, such as gold and stainless steel, etc.
> 
> Those komandirskies are made of brass with a thin Titanium Nitrate coating.


----------



## naPoelion

While still on the quest for my first Russian, I found this beautiful poljot on google images, however the link is broken so I am stuck with two questions.
Is it a Franken?
Whats the name of the model, if it is a real model?
Thank you








Verstuurd vanaf mijn Z2 Plus met Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

naPoelion said:


> While still on the quest for my first Russian, I found this beautiful poljot on google images, however the link is broken so I am stuck with two questions.
> Is it a Franken?
> Whats the name of the model, if it is a real model?


Poljot alarm, caliber 2612 (18 jewels).

Note that the watch you show is from the post-USSR era. I can't comment on authenticity as I only collect Soviet watches, but it look OK to me I guess (hands seem a bit funny maybe).


----------



## mroatman

3017 eksperts, your thoughts.

OXID Surf- und Kiteshop | Armbanduhr "Corsar" Strela cal. Poljot 3017 für DDR | online kaufen


----------



## elsoldemayo

mroatman said:


> 3017 eksperts, your thoughts.
> 
> OXID Surf- und Kiteshop | Armbanduhr "Corsar" Strela cal. Poljot 3017 für DDR | online kaufen


Interesting. Same dial style as the Sekonda 3017, but presumably a prototype if it's genuine as they never bothered applying lume even though the lume outline markings are there. Instinct would be genuine because if you're gonna fake it, make it a recognizable fake.


----------



## miroman

mroatman said:


> 3017 experts, your thoughts.
> 
> OXID Surf- und Kiteshop | Armbanduhr "Corsar" Strela cal. Poljot 3017 für DDR | online kaufen
> 
> View attachment 12728351
> 
> 
> View attachment 12728353


The logo is "Meister Anker", so I believe it's a fantasy dial, made 'after working hours' in the factory by a master, intending to sell it as foreign chronograph :-d
Definitely not a 'new-made', and maybe it's the only example :-!

Regards, Miro.


----------



## Neruda

Mroatman - made in US? Either the SR has been removed or there's something funny going on...


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Poljot alarm, caliber 2612 (18 jewels).
> 
> Note that the watch you show is from the post-USSR era. I can't comment on authenticity as I only collect Soviet watches, but it look OK to me I guess (hands seem a bit funny maybe).


I second the opinion and add this group from a 1994 catalog with similar looking hands:


----------



## Straight_time

> 3017 eksperts, your thoughts.


Honestly, I don't know what to think. I browsed the seller's other items, and all of the other 2 wristwatches powered by a 3017 have something not correct in them, including a black dialed Sekonda with (wrong) chrono hand and small counters' hands, all overpainted in white: thus suggesting it may have belonged to the same owner, who customized both watches according to his own taste. The factory would never, ever have made this job, even on a prototype: the red dot on the chrono hand is painted from above.

So at first sight it has "obvious fake" written all over, but on second thought I find myself with many questions unanswered.
Ok, the lack of lume on the dial might indicate a part discarded by the QC before it went to the final stage -the incomplete "Made in US" marking may have something to do with that. But what really makes me wonder, is how this dial can have such a uniform discoloration -it doesn't have the look of a "casual" effect on a defective item- and how in the world could a worker of 1MWF, likely somebody operating at the pad printing machine, have had access to an original Meister Anker logo (!!!), then apply it over this dial together with an original Corsar marking, and then fit it all onto what seems, judging by the serial number, a period-correct movement -that is, have access to the final assembly line, too. 
A lot of work, and also many personal risks, I'd say: privately counterfeiting a whole watch, in a State-owned Soviet factory, isn't quite the same as stuffing a B-quality dial into the pocket...


----------



## dutchassasin

dont forget poljot did make some watches for meisteranker. so they had a pad print for the logo.


----------



## mariomart

Can anyone shed any light on this dial? I thought it was something to do with Antarctica, but the word АПАТИТЫ (Apatity?) seems to allude to a town in the Murmansk region of Russia. There must be a story.


----------



## Neruda

АПАТИТСТРОЙ is a construction company based in Apatity - they are members of Murmanshelf, described as an Association of Arctic Projects Contractors. The map on the watch, however, appears to be the Murmansk Oblast.


----------



## mariomart

Neruda said:


> АПАТИТСТРОЙ is a construction company based in Apatity - they are members of Murmanshelf, described as an Association of Arctic Projects Contractors. The map on the watch, however, appears to be the Murmansk Oblast.


Thank you my fine friend


----------



## SinanjuStein

I believe it's mostly correct, though i'm somewhat considering getting a better dial and or case while they are still available cheaply.


----------



## elsoldemayo

The crown is replaced and no movement pic, but anything else I've missed on this one? Were these available in a gold case or only chromed?


----------



## Bostok

Yes, I personally and others think the gold case was available (see thread below). Usually the "sensible" parts are the crown (already spotted), second hand (looks fine from here), the dial (often with a specific patina, hope yours, that seems in very good shape is original, but a better picture should be provided to judge as far as I'm concerned) and movement (not available).

You might also look here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/kirovskie-sputnik-watch-4157650.html

Good luck!


----------



## mroatman

elsoldemayo said:


> Were these available in a gold case or only chromed?


It's controversial. I think they're legit.

That looks like a really, really nice one.


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> The crown is replaced and no movement pic, but anything else I've missed on this one? Were these available in a gold case or only chromed?
> 
> View attachment 12731699


Looks familiar:


----------



## jfbl

Does this watch look legit? Also, is the oil painting on the dial from the factory or a later addition? Will the oil painting become damaged if the watch is used?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OIL-Painti...588989?hash=item36270fec7d:g:hA8AAOSwQVZZgNWo


----------



## mroatman

jfbl said:


> Does this watch look legit? Also, is the oil painting on the dial from the factory or a later addition? Will the oil painting become damaged if the watch is used?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/OIL-Painti...588989?hash=item36270fec7d:g:hA8AAOSwQVZZgNWo


The watch is original, except for the oil painting which was a later addition. Whether it was done 50 years ago or 50 days ago is difficult to know.

The painting should be fine with normal use. Google a little about oil paintings on Soviet watch dials and you'll find that these are not uncommon.

Do be aware that this is an extremely small watch; most would consider it ladies-sized.


----------



## NuttySlack

This one looks cheap and the seller says he's 'not sure' about the dial. What do more knowledgeable comrades think?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OKEAN-Po...d=112648004489&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


----------



## mroatman

NuttySlack said:


> This one looks cheap and the seller says he's 'not sure' about the dial. What do more knowledgeable comrades think?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OKEAN-Po...d=112648004489&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


Nice honesty on the seller's part. You don't see that much.

The dial is for sure original. But the rest is not -- chrono hand, case, case-back, issues all around.

I'd keep looking...


----------



## NuttySlack

mroatman said:


> Nice honesty on the seller's part. You don't see that much.
> 
> The dial is for sure original. But the rest is not -- chrono hand, case, case-back, issues all around.
> 
> I'd keep looking...


Thanks, Dashiel!

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


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## Lukas Radziszewski

Hey Schnurp, your Sputnik is very interesting. I guess it was build from different parts - but what cool are they! The special steel back belongs to ultra-rare Kirovskie "Class 1". Also movement looks it was made after 1963 - so I am not sure that production of Sputnik series was continued for that long time. I have seen new-old-stock only with older logotype on movement. 

Gold plated Sputnik looks nice, more - it looks awesome. I wish to see even one, with documentation, in NOS - to be sure of that.


----------



## schnurrp

Lukas Radziszewski said:


> Hey Schnurp, your Sputnik is very interesting. I guess it was build from different parts - but what cool are they! The special steel back belongs to ultra-rare Kirovskie "Class 1". Also movement looks it was made after 1963 - so I am not sure that production of Sputnik series was continued for that long time. I have seen new-old-stock only with older logotype on movement.
> 
> Gold plated Sputnik looks nice, more - it looks awesome. I wish to see even one, with documentation, in NOS - to be sure of that.


Thanks, comrade. Yes, this one was built from a combination of two I bought which I could put together to form a close reconstruction but I liked the gold version so much with the unusual back that I kept everything "as-is" for now. Thanks for your identification of the back which I had never seen before. I'm not sure which one you mean but would like to know. Do you have a picture of dial from "Kirovskie ""Class 1""?


----------



## Lukas Radziszewski

My pleasure, I just wanted to signalize it for you, that is precious piece of Kirovskie.  I have seen just three types of original engravings on steel back of Kirovskie crabs, and that one you have is very special. Class 1, I guess is one of the most rare Kirovskie crab case types, together with nicknamed as "Albino", "Atlantic" or "two stripes". It was made just in small series, because in 1964 Soviets decided to register Poljot as flag brand. If you will be interested to exchange it or to sell, I can make you sure, it will be good deal for you. I have only dial and movement for now.

There was also KL 1 Poljots with callendar and non-symetric Stolichnyes and few more. I think Dash can tell more about it. I am not sure was there also Rodina in that "first line".

Yep here you have it. It is complete Class 1 (It is not my auction, but I hope, I am not braking any policy of forum right now? If yes, just please - tell me) https://www.etsy.com/listing/487330...ga_search_query=kirovskie 1&ref=sr_gallery_48


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## NuttySlack

This one has caught my eye - it looks good to me, but I'm not expert enough to be sure. I Have a counter offer to consider and would be grateful for any help

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLJOT-S...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


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## dutchassasin

NuttySlack said:


> This one has caught my eye - it looks good to me, but I'm not expert enough to be sure. I Have a counter offer to consider and would be grateful for any help
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLJOT-S...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


At first glance the hands are replica


----------



## NuttySlack

dutchassasin said:


> At first glance the hands are replica


Thanks, comrade.I have decided against it on the grounds that he has sold at least two before with exactly the same photos

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


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## mroatman

Lukas Radziszewski said:


> I am not sure was there also Rodina in that "first line".


Indeed there was. This one is on the way to Tallinn now. Lucky me


----------



## jfbl

Does this watch seem legit?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PO...INDING-RUSSIAN-USSR-WRISTWATCH-/122864587722?


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## Lukas Radziszewski

Congratulations Dash! Yes, we can definitely say - lucky you. I see Rodina Class 1 something around third time in life.


----------



## junkman

hello, I have never seen this dial, it is a fancy of the seller or it is a special edition.
I know that Omon refers to special military commands or something similar


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## schnurrp

jfbl said:


> Does this watch seem legit?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PO...INDING-RUSSIAN-USSR-WRISTWATCH-/122864587722?


Yes, Pobeda in my opinion made in late '70s-early '80s by:


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## Neruda

Junkman - your watch dial is for the OMON which is a sort of special forces police unit. More information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMON#Russian_OMON

I don't think these watches were officially issued, but were available for purchase internally by OMON personnel. Your version shows the badge of the Moscow OMON unit:


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## XsiOn

Hi Guys,

I am still looking for a nice precision. How this one looks like (beside crown which is not original in my opinion)?


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## Lukas Radziszewski

Beside of crown looks fine. It is very nice, early version of 2809 movement. Everything fits in my opinion.


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## Sansoni7

Hi
Any help abot this watch?
Brand, year, dial, mechanism?
Thank you very much.
Regards and Merry Christmas.


----------



## mroatman

Sansoni7 said:


> Hi
> Any help abot this watch?
> Brand, year, dial, mechanism?
> Thank you very much.
> Regards and Merry Christmas.


Brand - ZIM
Year - 1990
Dial - WWII commemorative
Movement - 2602


----------



## Sansoni7

*@mroatman*, thank you very much for your help.
Regards


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, what do you think about this one











Many thanks in advance


----------



## Victorv

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, what do you think about this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks in advance


Can anyone help me on this kirovskie?


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## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Can anyone help me on this kirovskie?


Two things would make me nervous about this one. First, you have the lumed cathedral hour and minute hands but the dial is not lumed. Second, you have the lumed hour and minute cathedral hands but the second hand is not the type that can be lumed.

If this watch had plain hands like the ones below it would be more attractive to me.














Needs to have a dial and second hand like this one, perhaps:


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## NuttySlack

Would anyone have an idea about the authenticity of this Big Zero?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Russian-...d=263175064810&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


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## Neruda

NuttySlack - the dial printing, especially the 3 and the 2 o'clock arrow, looks suspicious to me. It's either a poor impression or a reprint. I also believe the hands were originally solid black.


----------



## jfbl

NuttySlack said:


> Would anyone have an idea about the authenticity of this Big Zero?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Russian-...d=263175064810&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


The hands are definitely wrong.


----------



## Chascomm

elsoldemayo said:


> Interesting. Same dial style as the Sekonda 3017, but presumably a prototype if it's genuine as they never bothered applying lume even though the lume outline markings are there. Instinct would be genuine because if you're gonna fake it, make it a recognizable fake.


Isn't that the Meister Anker logo?


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## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> Two things would make me nervous about this one. First, you have the lumed cathedral hour and minute hands but the dial is not lumed. Second, you have the lumed hour and minute cathedral hands but the second hand is not the type that can be lumed.
> 
> If this watch had plain hands like the ones below it would be more attractive to me.
> View attachment 12742815
> View attachment 12742817
> 
> 
> Needs to have a dial and second hand like this one, perhaps:
> 
> View attachment 12742819


Many many thanks comrade, really nice and interesting information. I'll wait until appears one totally genuine.

One question, The two first watches (without lume) are original?

Thankss!!!


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## schnurrp

I think so....the Chistopolskie was not designed to be lumed and the other has a dial which can be found unlumed with solid non-lumed hands or lumed with open lumed hands.


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## Neruda

Opinions on this Vostok Amphibian welcome, please!









A lot of old Vostok dials have cracked with age and exposure to light, sometimes producing a rather nice effect. In this case, however, it looks rather as if the "cracking" has been impressed on the dial. Anyone seen this effect before?

Also, what about the lume dots and hands? I think I've seen this green lume on some models made for the more Asian regions of the ex-Soviet Union in the 1990s, but again I'm not sure if it hasn't been re-lumed.

Thanks!


----------



## SinanjuStein

I am no expert on Luch's watches, and then only thing suspicious to me with this one is how good it looks.










Am i missing something here?


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> I think so....the Chistopolskie was not designed to be lumed and the other has a dial which can be found unlumed with solid non-lumed hands or lumed with open lumed hands.


Many thanks Comrade

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


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## ThePossumKing

I'm still hoping to find a nice (and legit) Sputnik. How looks this one?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mroatman

Neruda said:


> Opinions on this Vostok Amphibian welcome, please!
> A lot of old Vostok dials have cracked with age and exposure to light, sometimes producing a rather nice effect. In this case, however, it looks rather as if the "cracking" has been impressed on the dial. Anyone seen this effect before?
> Also, what about the lume dots and hands? I think I've seen this green lume on some models made for the more Asian regions of the ex-Soviet Union in the 1990s, but again I'm not sure if it hasn't been re-lumed.
> Thanks!


I think the effect we're seeing is just the separation of paint in the traditional craqueleur fashion. But I agree that the optical effect looks like scarring. Really cool, actually.

The lume can sometimes appear green in photos if it's recently been charged. Perhaps the seller took a photo like that intentionally to increase the wow factor. You can compare to another dial color here.

Overall I'd say the dial itself looks authentic, but I would get a second opinion.



SinanjuStein said:


> I am no expert on Luch's watches, and then only thing suspicious to me with this one is how good it looks.
> Am i missing something here?


Looks good to me. If you look closely, there are some track marks on the dial where the hour hand has dragged around and scratched the surface slightly.



ThePossumKing said:


> I'm still hoping to find a nice (and legit) Sputnik. How looks this one?


Legit black Sputnik must have nickel hands ?


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## SinanjuStein

mroatman said:


> Looks good to me. If you look closely, there are some track marks on the dial where the hour hand has dragged around and scratched the surface slightly.


Ah, i see what you meant.

Was looking for clean example though, and they are rather hard to find nowdays.


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## mroatman

SinanjuStein said:


> Ah, i see what you meant.
> 
> Was looking for clean example though, and they are rather hard to find nowdays.


Yes indeed. I'll keep my eyes open 👍


----------



## Uros TSI

Does somebody know if this is legit?










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## SinanjuStein

Honestly both look fine for me but a second opinion is always good, but i'm more interested in the Raketa auto as it has one of the original autowind marked casebackes.

Plus i'ved owned one in the past and i'd loved t own an original one.


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## Neruda

Seller claims this is a genuine Poljot/Vostok colaboration, but doesn't include a movement photo. Caseback is regular Komandirskie. Does anyone recognise the dial and tell me if it has been "lifted" from another model?









Thanks!


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## Victorv

Hello guys, what do you think about this one?

I think it's original, but recased. I think the case should be gold, what do you think?


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## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> Seller claims this is a genuine Poljot/Vostok colaboration, but doesn't include a movement photo. Caseback is regular Komandirskie. Does anyone recognise the dial and tell me if it has been "lifted" from another model?
> 
> View attachment 12751003
> 
> 
> Thanks!


Can't really shed any light but for what it's worth they did collaborate on Vostok/Poljot chronos so could be authentic.


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## schnurrp

SinanjuStein said:


> Honestly both look fine for me but a second opinion is always good, but i'm more interested in the Raketa auto as it has one of the original autowind marked casebackes.
> 
> Plus i'ved owned one in the past and i'd loved t own an original one.


From what you've shown they look good. Movement pictures would help.


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## schnurrp

Uros TSI said:


> Does somebody know if this is legit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


I believe most think that case is legit but the ones pictured in the catalog have a different case. Everything else looks good.

'76 catalog:


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## SinanjuStein

schnurrp said:


> From what you've shown they look good. Movement pictures would help.


The Pobeda has seems to have the correct movement, the only thing that looked off to me was the dial and blued hands.










I've asked the seller for a picture of the movement, but it's already stated that it's a 2627 auto movement.

Which is the only rather common/inexpensive automatic movement that Raketa made.


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## schnurrp

SinanjuStein said:


> The Pobeda has seems to have the correct movement, the only thing that looked off to me was the dial and blued hands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've asked the seller for a picture of the movement, but it's already stated that it's a 2627 auto movement.
> 
> Which is the only rather common/inexpensive automatic movement that Raketa made.


That's a very special movement; is the dial TTK-1? I can't read it. The two should be together. I don't remember seeing a ttk-1 dial in that copper color.


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## SinanjuStein

schnurrp said:


> That's a very special movement; is the dial TTK-1? I can't read it. The two should be together. I don't remember seeing a ttk-1 dial in that copper color.


The dial is 2Mchz marked.

Which means it's a franken of sorts, which is a bit of a shame as i really liked the blued hands.

I'll search for a more completely example if i can.


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## mroatman

SinanjuStein said:


> The dial is 2Mchz marked.
> Which means it's a franken of sorts, which is a bit of a shame as i really liked the blued hands.
> I'll search for a more completely example if i can.


If the watch is cheap, it would be worth picking up for the movement alone. It's quite rare, even if it's improper for this particular watch.

Or if you don't want it, I would gladly trade you for the correct 2MWF movement


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## mroatman

Uros TSI said:


> Does somebody know if this is legit?





schnurrp said:


> I believe most think that case is legit but the ones pictured in the catalog have a different case. Everything else looks good.
> '76 catalog:


1979 catalog says: legit indeed ?

















https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5893366536628584674&oid=113098239036073221216


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## SinanjuStein

mroatman said:


> If the watch is cheap, it would be worth picking up for the movement alone. It's quite rare, even if it's improper for this particular watch.
> 
> Or if you don't want it, I would gladly trade you for the correct 2MWF movement


A bit late on that offer.

Found the exact same watch, in better condition with the correct movement for the same price. :roll:

Unfortunately after buying a new watchbox to fill a large buying urge came along it.


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## mroatman

SinanjuStein said:


> A bit late on that offer.
> Found the exact same watch, in better condition with the correct movement for the same price. :roll:
> Unfortunately after buying a new watchbox to fill a large buying urge came along it.


Glad you got a better one! These copper dials are really lovely -- I think you're going to love it.

Would you mind posting the link to that one with the TTK-1 movement? I'd like to have a look anyway.


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## SinanjuStein

mroatman said:


> Glad you got a better one! These copper dials are really lovely -- I think you're going to love it.
> 
> Would you mind posting the link to that one with the TTK-1 movement? I'd like to have a look anyway.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-US...220420?hash=item2a99a2f684:g:6cIAAOSw~jpZvGZw

Cheers.


----------



## Bostok

SinanjuStein said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-US...220420?hash=item2a99a2f684:g:6cIAAOSw~jpZvGZw
> 
> Cheers.


Good call, at that price I'd certainly leave this for a hardcore collector or someone needing that specific movement. 
I largely prefer an original object to a franken, even made (by luck) with some rare pieces. That is you buy the watch not an inscription on the movement


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## Uros TSI

Mroatman, Schnurrp, thank you. What do you think would be a fair price on this one? (movement is 2234 as it hacks). Service is not so expensive here, about 15-20e will get winder done. 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## kev80e

No idea if this is original or just someone added the logos .


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## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> No idea if this is original or just someone added the logos .
> View attachment 12754547


Me neither.


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## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Me neither.


Figured it was worth a shot for £20. Well it is Christmas.


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## Dub Rubb

Merry Christmas! I was thinking of treating myself to a wind Rose for Christmas, but I don't know if it is original or not. What do you think comrades?









Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


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## shahrincamille

Dub Rubb said:


> Merry Christmas! I was thinking of treating myself to a wind Rose for Christmas, but I don't know if it is original or not. What do you think comrades?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


Looks original to me|>

I just got one myself last week and it's exactly the same. Is this one NOS?

Shahrinb-)


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## Dub Rubb

shahrincamille said:


> Looks original to me|>
> 
> I just got one myself last week and it's exactly the same. Is this one NOS?
> 
> Shahrinb-)


It doesn't specify NOS, but says excellent condition and recently serviced, so I don't think so. Still looks to be in good condition.

Thanks for the info! I compared it to mroatman's collection and all looks good to me, but I never seem to pick up smaller details.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


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## Dub Rubb

I've got another one for ya. I have had good luck with this seller before, although his prices tend to be high, everything has been as advertised or better. But before I drop a good chunk of change, I would love to hear from the experts. Thanks in advance!









Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


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## Neruda

Rub Dubb - although most Buran 3133s do have cathedral hands, in the case of all the versions with gold sub-dials that I have seen they have simpler hour and minute hands, and the second hand has a lumed meatball. See for example this one from https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-buran-chronograph-poljot-3133-movement-3546106.html







I can't say categorically that yours is wrong - just that I've never seen this hands/dial combination.


----------



## Dub Rubb

Neruda said:


> Rub Dubb - although most Buran 3133s do have cathedral hands, in the case of all the versions with gold sub-dials that I have seen they have simpler hour and minute hands, and the second hand has a lumed meatball. See for example this one from https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-buran-chronograph-poljot-3133-movement-3546106.html
> View attachment 12756313
> 
> I can't say categorically that yours is wrong - just that I've never seen this hands/dial combination.


Thanks, that is what I have noticed as well, but I haven't been able to find too many references. It's a shame too, since I think the cathedral hands look better! Hopefully someone has seen this combo and it is legit, but I am not getting my hopes up.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


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## mroatman

Uros TSI said:


> Mroatman, Schnurrp, thank you. What do you think would be a fair price on this one? (movement is 2234 as it hacks). Service is not so expensive here, about 15-20e will get winder done.


$30 would be a good price. Up to $50 would be fair as this isn't the most common model.



Dub Rubb said:


> Merry Christmas! I was thinking of treating myself to a wind Rose for Christmas, but I don't know if it is original or not. What do you think comrades?


Looks fantastic to me. A beautiful classic.


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## SinanjuStein

Perhaps not the best place, but i'm not sure whether this is original or not?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/quadrante-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


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## Neruda

SinanjuStein - the dial looks identical to the dial on a watch you yourself are selling https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-So...253332882308?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

So far as I know, there are at least three variants to this Poljot export dial:

1. With "USSR" at six o'clock replacing the 10 on the telemeter scale.







2. With "US" and "SR" flanking the number 10 with the letters close together.







3. With "US" and "SR" flanking the number 10 with the letters more evenly spaced.








I've seen all three on watches which appear to be authentic, but I'm afraid I can't be certain. There may be information to be gleaned from serial numbers and/or movement versions which might give a plausible chronology - or prove that one is a reproduction?


----------



## SinanjuStein

Neruda said:


> SinanjuStein - the dial looks identical to the dial on a watch you yourself are selling https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-So...253332882308?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
> 
> So far as I know, there are at least three variants to this Poljot export dial:
> 
> 1. With "USSR" at six o'clock replacing the 10 on the telemeter scale.
> 
> 2. With "US" and "SR" flanking the number 10 with the letters close together.
> 
> 3. With "US" and "SR" flanking the number 10 with the letters more evenly spaced.
> I've seen all three on watches which appear to be authentic, but I'm afraid I can't be certain. There may be information to be gleaned from serial numbers and/or movement versions which might give a plausible chronology - or prove that one is a reproduction?


Well, it's always best to be sure.

Already got a nice case for the 3133 i'm going to keep, just need to get a dial at some point as well.

And as my watchbox filling adventures are continuing i have another thing on my targets list. (Also re-learning this stuff, since i feel as i've forgotten half of it)

Movement is a correct 1MWF marked one, crown doesn't seem correct though.


----------



## schnurrp

SinanjuStein said:


> Well, it's always best to be sure.
> 
> Already got a nice case for the 3133 i'm going to keep, just need to get a dial at some point as well.
> 
> And as my watchbox filling adventures are continuing i have another thing on my targets list. (Also re-learning this stuff, since i feel as i've forgotten half of it)
> 
> Movement is a correct 1MWF marked one, crown doesn't seem correct though.


I wonder if the case is correct, comrade. Here's mine with a different one (different dial, too, but same smaller 2209 with two-part back). A quick look through the catalogs didn't turn anything up for me but I seem to remember finding mine when I bought it.


----------



## SinanjuStein

schnurrp said:


> I wonder if the case is correct, comrade. Here's mine with a different one (different dial, too, but same smaller 2209 with two-part back). A quick look through the catalogs didn't turn anything up for me but I seem to remember finding mine when I bought it.


I saw a similar one on Dashiell's site, with the same dial but in Cyrillic and the crown was different.

Plus, i also splurged my shekels on a decent cushion cased Seiko.


----------



## MattBrace

SinanjuStein said:


> Perhaps not the best place, but i'm not sure whether this is original or not?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/quadrante-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


The dial is correct and original NOS 
I have purchased one from this seller.


----------



## Chascomm

kev80e said:


> Figured it was worth a shot for £20. Well it is Christmas.


If the picture and logo are under the glass then I reckon you've scored a winner.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I wonder if the case is correct, comrade. Here's mine with a different one (different dial, too, but same smaller 2209 with two-part back). A quick look through the catalogs didn't turn anything up for me but I seem to remember finding mine when I bought it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12766629


I

I have since seen a couple of these for sale on ebay with this case type. Must be authentic.


----------



## dutchassasin

Just out of curiosity sake, anyone ever seen a strela this early with Czech markings? Notice how the circle is fully engraved while on other examples its like ⭕.


----------



## OrangeOrange

I've never seen any Slava rocket alarm clock that looks like this. What do you guys think?


----------



## Neruda

Most of these rocket alarm clocks do not have space themed dials, but there are two exceptions: the one you are considering and the version with the Strelka and Belka space dogs. The hour numbers (12, 3, 6, 9) are identical, so my feeling is either both genuine or both are fake.









One problem is that both are from the same seller. Looking at his other items, he appears to specialise in Soviet-era alarm clocks and memorabilia. This may be both good or bad! His other items looks genuine, but I'm no expert. So either he is a trusted seller in a particular niche who knows what he is selling - or he's trying to slip a few fakes through as well.

Strelka and Belka appear in another version, from another seller which perhaps increases the odds it is authentic:









Also note that this version doesn't have the Slava brand or logo - perhaps allaying a doubt which has been raised for your model.

Above the CCCP on the world in your version, where the rocket takes off, can I see faint very faded red or orange lines?









If this is the case, it is perhaps evidence that the dial is old and the fading of this marking is the result of prolonged exposure to light?

It is also worth considering that a lot of these alarm clocks are marked "GOST 3145-57" on the back, implying it conformed to technical specifications. Does the absence of this suggest a later edition, or even a re-issue?

Overall I feel your version is good - but I'm not sure. I'd feel a lot happier if I could find other examples of this dial! Sorry, nothing very concrete - but maybe there's a point or two here which may help you to make a decision!


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

Anyone recognise this? Have an hour to decide whether its worth a punt!!


----------



## bpmurray

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Anyone recognise this? Have an hour to decide whether its worth a punt!!


Mr. Blurrycam special!

That's a Rodina in (I guess?) not ideal shape. Looks like the "10" is totally gone, the lume from that sector of the watch is missing, and the hours hand is kind of degraded. My best guess is that someone tried to wash the dial. I can't tell if that is a scratch on the crystal or dial running from about 8 to 4, or just glare.

It does look all original to me though. Here is the catalog:


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

bpmurray said:


> Mr. Blurrycam special!
> 
> That's a Rodina in (I guess?) not ideal shape. Looks like the "10" is totally gone, the lume from that sector of the watch is missing, and the hours hand is kind of degraded. My best guess is that someone tried to wash the dial. I can't tell if that is a scratch on the crystal or dial running from about 8 to 4, or just glare.
> 
> It does look all original to me though. Here is the catalog:
> 
> View attachment 12777779


Ahh, Rodina! Yeah it looks pretty messed up... going for £13 on eBay so thought I'd see if it was of interest. According to mroatman the model has the 1st soviet-built movement, the 2415a, so its interesting from a historical perspective.


----------



## davidrrd

Hello guys! 
Someone advice me to come to you asking for your expertise. I picked up my first Russian watch rummaging in a market in Shanghai. A Vostok Komandirskie in fairly good shape. 
However as you can imagine no box or papers. I was wondering if there is a way to find out about its production date. So far I haven't found any code or number. After asking for infos now I know that the case is a 43 and from meranom I can find a similar case/dial/bezel with the code 431818
Just wondering if there is a way to find more information. Thanks for the help!

David









Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


----------



## Neruda

Davidrrd - the caseback is 1990s. The absence of "made in USSR/Russia" on the dial probably indicates it was made shortly after the transition, my guess is c.1992-4.


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

ok, got another one for you... I promise one day I'll actually be able to contribute


----------



## davidrrd

Neruda said:


> Davidrrd - the caseback is 1990s. The absence of "made in USSR/Russia" on the dial probably indicates it was made shortly after the transition, my guess is c.1992-4.


Wow Thanks Neruda for the information. Really happy to get some more precise information on the watch..... And so quickly! 

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

SinanjuStein said:


> i have another thing on my targets list.
> Movement is a correct 1MWF marked one, crown doesn't seem correct though.





schnurrp said:


> I wonder if the case is correct, comrade. Here's mine with a different one (different dial, too, but same smaller 2209 with two-part back). A quick look through the catalogs didn't turn anything up for me but I seem to remember finding mine when I bought it.


Different watches. Both are correct, with the exception of the crown as SinanjuStein notes. I believe it should be the small acorn type found on other 2209s of the era, like schnurrp's (even though the catalog does not make this clear).

As it happens, they're actually shown on the same page of the catalog.


----------



## hseldon

jamesnorrisuk said:


> ok, got another one for you... I promise one day I'll actually be able to contribute
> 
> View attachment 12779275
> 
> View attachment 12779279


This looks fine (and is a gorgeous watch, I wear mine on a blue leather strap) correct movement and hands etc. 
The pictures don't show if it still has its antimagnetic shield (the 2610 movement differs from the 2609 only in that it comes with antimagnetic shield afaik) and if I was going to give it the real eagle eye treatment I would note that the paint on the minute hand seems more worn than the paint on the hour hand, but otherwise it looks like a nice specimen. Dial seems to be in good nick too.(looks wonderful under a bright light)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

hseldon said:


> This looks fine (and is a gorgeous watch, I wear mine on a blue leather strap) correct movement and hands etc.
> The pictures don't show if it still has its antimagnetic shield (the 2610 movement differs from the 2609 only in that it comes with antimagnetic shield afaik) and if I was going to give it the real eagle eye treatment I would note that the paint on the minute hand seems more worn than the paint on the hour hand, but otherwise it looks like a nice specimen. Dial seems to be in good nick too.(looks wonderful under a bright light)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree. These Raketa antimagnetics actually have two antimagnetic shields, one under the back and another behind the dial. I only know of one other watch that is built this way, the First Moscow Poljus from the '60s made for use by polar explorers.


----------



## schnurrp

Oops.


----------



## hseldon

schnurrp said:


> Agree. These Raketa antimagnetics actually have two antimagnetic shields, one under the back and another behind the dial. I only know of one other watch that is built this way, the First Moscow Poljus from the '60s made for use by polar explorers.


Yeah, I've never taken mine fully apart to see the shield behind the dial. I assume it's there! It has the one under the case back though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

hseldon said:


> Yeah, I've never taken mine fully apart to see the shield behind the dial. I assume it's there! It has the one under the case back though.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This one looks like a better example... pic of the caseback shield but not the dial shield.

Damn, so tempting but I need to stop my watch purchase run rate of 1 a week!


----------



## schnurrp

jamesnorrisuk said:


> This one looks like a better example... pic of the caseback shield but not the dial shield.
> 
> Damn, so tempting but I need to stop my watch purchase run rate of 1 a week!
> 
> View attachment 12782371
> 
> View attachment 12782373
> View attachment 12782375
> View attachment 12782379


They never show the dial shield. The only difference between the 2610 and the 2609 movement is a longer cannon pinion and hour wheel to clear the extra thickness of the antimagnetic dial shield.


----------



## VWatchie

I'm in the process of cleaning up and servicing this "Wostok Made in USSR" and have a few questions that I hope you can help me with.

















1. Legit or Franken? I'd guess legit as I've seen similar watches on the bay. However, this particular model I've only seen once, and I didn't think the 2414A came with a _date ring having numbers in red_. So, I'm not 100 % sure. On the inside of the case back someone, a bit carelessly, has engraved a date (I believe 240681) and a name. Could it really be from 1981? (I doubt it). Just realized I forgot to include the crown in the pictures, sorry!

2. The crystal is in pretty badly scratched (but definitely salvageable) and I wish to try the "sandpaper method by mroatman" (Thank you!). Now, what I'd like to do is use my crystal press to separate the crystal from the case (to make sure I don't scratch the case while sandpapering the crystal). I've used my crystal press before with Amphibians, but would I dare to do it with this watch? Is there any difference I need to consider?

3. As far as I can see the outer blue ring with the Roman numerals is fixed to the case and can't be removed. Would I dare to subject the case to the "lukewarm water/detergent/toothbrush method" for cleaning?

4. All Timegrapher readings are all over the place except the amplitude. I'm considering replacing the balance wheel but have never done so and wonder if there is an instructional post or video about it somewhere?​


----------



## Neruda

VWatchies - The SU stamp on the movement would fit for 1981. This detail seems to begin in about 1980 with most watches made for the Moscow Olympics being so marked. By about 1982/3 the bevelled edge on most Vostok movements was phased out. The SU stamp was dropped by about 1985. While these dates aren't concrete, your movement seems correct for the year.

I had thought that red date dials stopped in the late 1970s - however it seems that they continued longer, especially in this style, so again it appears compatible.


----------



## mr2manycars

VWatchie said:


> I'd guess legit as I've seen similar watches on the bay. ​


Sorry, but this made me LOL.


----------



## schnurrp

VWatchie said:


> I'm in the process of cleaning up and servicing this "Wostok Made in USSR" and have a few questions that I hope you can help me with.
> 
> View attachment 12783385
> 
> 
> View attachment 12783387
> 
> 
> 1. Legit or Franken? I'd guess legit as I've seen similar watches on the bay. However, this particular model I've only seen once, and I didn't think the 2414A came with a _date ring having numbers in red_. So, I'm not 100 % sure. On the inside of the case back someone, a bit carelessly, has engraved a date (I believe 240681) and a name. Could it really be from 1981? (I doubt it). Just realized I forgot to include the crown in the pictures, sorry!
> 
> 2. The crystal is in pretty badly scratched (but definitely salvageable) and I wish to try the "sandpaper method by mroatman" (Thank you!). Now, what I'd like to do is use my crystal press to separate the crystal from the case (to make sure I don't scratch the case while sandpapering the crystal). I've used my crystal press before with Amphibians, but would I dare to do it with this watch? Is there any difference I need to consider?
> 
> 3. As far as I can see the outer blue ring with the Roman numerals is fixed to the case and can't be removed. Would I dare to subject the case to the "lukewarm water/detergent/toothbrush method" for cleaning?
> 
> 4. All Timegrapher readings are all over the place except the amplitude. I'm considering replacing the balance wheel but have never done so and wonder if there is an instructional post or video about it somewhere?​


Looks legit to me including the date wheel. I assume you mean a crystal "lift" and yes you can do that easily. My preferred method for that watch would be to remove the inner ring if it's not too hard (it went in it must come out), leave the crystal in place and clean and polish it inside and out as needed, replace the ring and continue on. I wouldn't wash the case with the ring in place unless you remove the crystal. If the ring doesn't come out fairly easily leave it and remove the crystal.

If the amplitude is good you can regulate the beat error and time +\- on the existing balance. I would only consider replacing the balance if the amplitude is poor. If you're not getting fairly straight lines on the timegrapher it may need a service.

Good luck!


----------



## schnurrp

VWatchie said:


> I'm in the process of cleaning up and servicing this "Wostok Made in USSR" and have a few questions that I hope you can help me with.
> 
> View attachment 12783385
> 
> 
> View attachment 12783387
> 
> 
> 1. Legit or Franken? I'd guess legit as I've seen similar watches on the bay. However, this particular model I've only seen once, and I didn't think the 2414A came with a _date ring having numbers in red_. So, I'm not 100 % sure. On the inside of the case back someone, a bit carelessly, has engraved a date (I believe 240681) and a name. Could it really be from 1981? (I doubt it). Just realized I forgot to include the crown in the pictures, sorry!
> 
> 2. The crystal is in pretty badly scratched (but definitely salvageable) and I wish to try the "sandpaper method by mroatman" (Thank you!). Now, what I'd like to do is use my crystal press to separate the crystal from the case (to make sure I don't scratch the case while sandpapering the crystal). I've used my crystal press before with Amphibians, but would I dare to do it with this watch? Is there any difference I need to consider?
> 
> 3. As far as I can see the outer blue ring with the Roman numerals is fixed to the case and can't be removed. Would I dare to subject the case to the "lukewarm water/detergent/toothbrush method" for cleaning?
> 
> 4. All Timegrapher readings are all over the place except the amplitude. I'm considering replacing the balance wheel but have never done so and wonder if there is an instructional post or video about it somewhere?​


Looks legit to me including the date wheel. I assume you mean a crystal "lift" and yes you can do that easily. My preferred method for that watch would be to remove the inner ring if it's not too hard (it went in it must come out), leave the crystal in place and clean and polish it inside and out as needed, replace the ring and continue on. I wouldn't wash the case with the ring in place unless you remove the crystal. If the ring doesn't come out fairly easily leave it and remove the crystal.

If the amplitude is good you can regulate the beat error and time +\- on the existing balance. I would only consider replacing the balance if the amplitude is poor. If you're not getting fairly straight lines on the timegrapher it may need a service.

Good luck!


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Looks legit to me including the date wheel. I assume you mean a crystal "lift" and yes you can do that easily. My preferred method for that watch would be to remove the inner ring if it's not too hard (it went in it must come out), leave the crystal in place and clean and polish it inside and out as needed, replace the ring and continue on. I wouldn't wash the case with the ring in place unless you remove the crystal. If the ring doesn't come out fairly easily leave it and remove the crystal.
> 
> If the amplitude is good you can regulate the beat error and time +\- on the existing balance. I would only consider replacing the balance if the amplitude is poor. If you're not getting fairly straight lines on the timegrapher it may need a service.
> 
> Good luck!


EDIT:
Well technically this post is OT, but I'd be more than happy to move it to some other thread (any recommendations?) if someone would like to reply to it. Thank you!

As far as I can tell having had a close look in my stereomicroscope (40X), the inner rim of the watch case holding the Roman numerals is an integral part of the case, i.e. not removable. I don't have a camera for my stereomicroscope so here's a macro shoot (iPhone with macro lens). What do you think?









BTW, here's a picture of the crown which I forgot to show yesterday.









I basically wasn't aware there was a tool named "_crystal lift_". What I have is a "_crystal press_" (although a simpler Chinese version from eBay) and I'm certainly not sure it's the right tool for this particular job? Is a crystal press solely for crystals with a _tension ring_ like for the Amphibians? Well, it would seem I have another "can't-live-without-watch-tool" to invest in. Can't wait for it! ;-)

Now, to make absolutely sure; will this type of crystal lift do the job? What is an "_unbreakable round watch glass_", as mentioned in the ad? I would assume a plastic crystal like the ones on our Soviet/Russian watches?

Yes, the amplitude is surprisingly good despite the movement being in a pretty deplorable state. All oils look gummy and dried up and one of the cap jewels look like it has been pierced by the balance staff pivot. Yikes! (hope I'm using the correct terminology here). Anyway, servicing and replacing the cap jewel might stabilize it. As of now, it can't be regulated and the beat error can't be adjusted.

EDIT:
The "pierced cap jewel" appears to be an optical illusion created by the gummy/dried up oil. I guess it must be as, if I remember correctly, jewels are a lot harder than the metal pivots.


----------



## Bostok

VWatchie said:


> I'm in the process of cleaning up and servicing this "Wostok Made in USSR" and have a few questions that I hope you can help me with.
> 
> View attachment 12783385
> 
> 
> View attachment 12783387
> 
> 
> 1. Legit or Franken? I'd guess legit as I've seen similar watches on the bay. However, this particular model I've only seen once, and I didn't think the 2414A came with a _date ring having numbers in red_. So, I'm not 100 % sure. On the inside of the case back someone, a bit carelessly, has engraved a date (I believe 240681) and a name. Could it really be from 1981? (I doubt it). Just realized I forgot to include the crown in the pictures, sorry!​


Don't have a clue about the last technical points but I do think your watch is original, these are my two Moon Rise Vostok ...As I wrote in my original post, interesting patina and exterior dial blue colour variation (different lot probably and very Vostok so to speak - see all the blue scuba variations)













Also there are two variants with the colour of the "moon" either golden or silver (your example seems to have the latter), this well known but not so easy to find model may actually have a moonrise and a sunrise version after all...



mr2manycars said:


> Sorry, but this made me LOL.


New to soviet watches, aren't you?


----------



## mroatman

VWatchie said:


> I'm in the process of cleaning up and servicing this "Wostok Made in USSR" and have a few questions that I hope you can help me with.​





Bostok said:


> this model may actually have a moonrise and a sunrise version after all...


?? ?

View attachment collage.jpg


----------



## mroatman

VWatchie said:


> the inner rim of the watch case holding the Roman numerals is an integral part of the case, i.e. not removable. What do you think?


Yep, not removable.



VWatchie said:


> BTW, here's a picture of the crown which I forgot to show yesterday.


Looks good, albeit worn. Should be slightly pointed on the end, like a Chinese hat.



VWatchie said:


> Now, to make absolutely sure; will this type of crystal lift do the job? What is an "_unbreakable round watch glass_", as mentioned in the ad? I would assume a plastic crystal like the ones on our Soviet/Russian watches?


Yes, that kind of lift is perfect. The more tines, the better, as this distributes the pressure around the circumference of the crystal more evenly. That one seems to be of decently quality and a fair price. CousinsUK is great.

By the way, I think it's possible your watch could be from the early 1980s. The catalog it's shown in is from 1990, but depicts watches known to have been produced throughout the 1908s.


----------



## VWatchie

Comrades, thank you _very much_ for all input about my "Moon Rise Vostok" (I had no idea it was named so, and I've only seen this particular model once on eBay so it seems somewhat rare)! Very interesting and useful!

It's not evident from my pictures, but my version is the "golden" version (I'll be back with better pictures once I've finished it), and yes, the crown has a "Chinese hat". Yes, couldn't agree more about CousinsUK. IMO, definitely one of the very best options for us living in Europe (price/delivery times/customer support/service). I'll pick up the crystal lift!

It's interesting to note that the case looks like it consists of two parts. One part holding the crystal and the chapter ring (right terminology?), and the other part holding the movement. Looking at the outside of the case it looks like these two parts have been screwed, pressed, or perhaps glued on to one another. I wonder if these parts can be separated? Usually, when I clean a case I use lukewarm water, detergent/toothpaste, and a toothbrush, but I worry this might ruin the blue chapter ring with its white Roman numerals. Any advice?

BTW, for some reason I always assumed the Vostok 24xx movements were from the early 90-ties (never researched it). Does anyone know when these 24xx movements came into production?

As I didn't feel this thread was ideal for technical questions about repairing, I also posted my questions on watchrepairtalk and got an interesting and useful reply.


----------



## mroatman

VWatchie said:


> BTW, for some reason I always assumed the Vostok 24xx movements were from the early 90-ties (never researched it). Does anyone know when these 24xx movements came into production?


The first mention of the 2409 is in the 1970 catalog, with two particular models:

View attachment collage.jpg


Indeed, it's much earlier than most people realize. If you're interested, there's some additional reading here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/why-2209-2409-a-4080106.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-possible-historical-significance-watch-quiz-2739450.html


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, what do you think about this Pobeda?

I posted some days ago without photo of the movement. Now i have it at home, and i can post the movement

Many thanks in advance










Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Victorv

And if It is possible, i would like to hear your opinion about this Komandirskie which is in my collection too.

I think it's all original, except the caseback. And i think the hands had been repainted.

Many thanks guys










Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## bpmurray

Victorv said:


> And if It is possible, i would like to hear your opinion about this Komandirskie which is in my collection too.
> 
> I think it's all original, except the caseback. And i think the hands had been repainted.
> 
> Many thanks guys
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


It's not a Komandirskie, but a "civilian" Vostok. I think the caseback is actually correct, but the movement has an incorrect main bridge -- this watch should be a 2214 movement as the difference between -09 and -14 is that -14 added the date function. Also, this watch is too old for the "SU" stamp. I agree the hands have been repainted.

Here is the catalog page, showing 2214:

\


----------



## bpmurray

bpmurray said:


> It's not a Komandirskie, but a "civilian" Vostok. I think the caseback is actually correct, but the movement has an incorrect main bridge -- this watch should be a 2214 movement as the difference between -09 and -14 is that -14 added the date function. Also, this watch is too old for the "SU" stamp. I agree the hands have been repainted.


Sorry, I should say that it is possible that the entire movement has been replaced. I'm not familiar enough to be able to distinguish these just from viewing. However, if the date function is actually working, then it is a 2214 movement, regardless of the what the main bridge says.


----------



## Kye752

Was wondering if this pobeda red 12 is real or not


----------



## XsiOn

Hi Friends,

is this Okean real?





































Thanks!
Peter


----------



## schnurrp

XsiOn said:


> Hi Friends,
> 
> is this Okean real?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> Peter


Looks good to me with the exception of the bezel crown which appears to be chrome-plated instead of stainless steel. Notice the "colder" color of the crown compared to the rest of the case, crowns, pushers, and back. Since the rest of the watch appears to be in excellent authentic condition I would consider this a minor bargaining point. You could consider it a repair and leave it or I believe you could replace it with a little time spent searching for a stainless crown that fits.


----------



## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> Hi Friends,
> is this Okean real?
> Thanks!
> Peter





schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me with the exception of the bezel crown which appears to be chrome-plated instead of stainless steel. Notice the "colder" color of the crown compared to the rest of the case, crowns, pushers, and back. Since the rest of the watch appears to be in excellent authentic condition I would consider this a minor bargaining point. You could consider it a repair and leave it or I believe you could replace it with a little time spent searching for a stainless crown that fits.


I also believe the left-most chrono wheel is replaced. In my book, they should be all silver-colored or all gold-colored. A mix suggests to me that a repair has been done.


----------



## mroatman

Kye752 said:


> Was wondering if this pobeda red 12 is real or not


Real.


----------



## Victorv

bpmurray said:


> It's not a Komandirskie, but a "civilian" Vostok. I think the caseback is actually correct, but the movement has an incorrect main bridge -- this watch should be a 2214 movement as the difference between -09 and -14 is that -14 added the date function. Also, this watch is too old for the "SU" stamp. I agree the hands have been repainted.
> 
> Here is the catalog page, showing 2214:
> 
> \
> View attachment 12788521





bpmurray said:


> Sorry, I should say that it is possible that the entire movement has been replaced. I'm not familiar enough to be able to distinguish these just from viewing. However, if the date function is actually working, then it is a 2214 movement, regardless of the what the main bridge says.


Wow, really nice information comrade, the date function is working well, so it is a 2214 with the incorrect main bridge. My knowledge with movement is really poor, and i apreciate too much this information. Now, i'm going to find some 2214 bridge to make it all original.

Thanks for the catalogue photo, really.

Finally i like to know your opinion of my previous Pobeda

Regards
Víctor


----------



## Neruda

Victorv - The bridge is not the only problem - your movement was made roughly between 1982 and 1985. Earlier versions had a bevelled edge while later versions don't have the serial number under the balance. I'm not sure when these civilian Vostoks were available, but if they date to around the mid 1970s I think there's a strong probability the date wheel should have red numerals.


----------



## XsiOn

I could not resist..... and this beauty is on her way to me  Schnurrp, thanks for making me an Okean owner.... finally. Have one any suggestion where to start my quest for correct bezel crown?

BTW, with help of info of chrono wheel and Crown I lowered the price alright  Do you think, I should also find the correct chrono wheel as-well? 

BR, Peter


----------



## Victorv

Neruda said:


> Victorv - The bridge is not the only problem - your movement was made roughly between 1982 and 1985. Earlier versions had a bevelled edge while later versions don't have the serial number under the balance. I'm not sure when these civilian Vostoks were available, but if they date to around the mid 1970s I think there's a strong probability the date wheel should have red numerals.


Hello Neruda, many thanks for your help.

What a disappointment, I thought that the only thing that was not original in my watch was the caseback, and it turns out that the caseback is original, but the bridge and the date disk no...

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Neruda

Victorv - I wouldn't be too disappointed! If you really want to get your watch correct, you should be able to pick up a 2214 donor watch or movement quite cheaply. Be aware though, that there were minor changes to the movement during the 1970s - so to be absolutely 100% you need to know when your watch was produced. For example this movement dates (I think) to approx 1972-1975:








Before about 1972, the balance wheel is normally weighted. After about 1975, the ratchet wheel doesn't have the stars. If it has "Jewels 18" stamped on the bridge, it is an export model and the dial would have been marked "Vostok" not the Cyrillic "Boctok".

You could of course just enjoy the watch as it is! The change of movement may in fact be an old repair, and an integral part of the watch's history!


----------



## XsiOn

mroatman said:


> I also believe the left-most chrono wheel is replaced. In my book, they should be all silver-colored or all gold-colored. A mix suggests to me that a repair has been done.


I just saw this on Mark Gordons page.... it looks the chrono wheel is silver too. It might be that it is correct after all?


----------



## mroatman

Neruda said:


> Victorv - The bridge is not the only problem - your movement was made roughly between 1982 and 1985. Earlier versions had a bevelled edge while later versions don't have the serial number under the balance. I'm not sure when these civilian Vostoks were available, but if they date to around the mid 1970s I think there's a strong probability the date wheel should have red numerals.


I concur -- the date should be red for a model this old. A small thing, really.


----------



## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> I just saw this on Mark Gordons page.... it looks the chrono wheel is silver too. It might be that it is correct after all?


Mark also had numerous 3133 calibers in what I consider to be the proper configurations.





















His collection was massive and impressive, but not without fault.


----------



## VWatchie

Thought it looked quite dressy and on a whim offered $20 (+ $8 shipping) for this watch and got it... I've only had Vostoks so far. What have I done? Did I buy a legit watch? Price OK?

EDIT: Here are a couple of pictures:


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

What do we think - worth a punt for £15?


----------



## Uros TSI

Is this worth 5€ I paid?

The case is very good, dial is dirty but no damage, second hand a bit bent.

Can't open now. I will later.









Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Mark also had numerous 3133 calibers in what I consider to be the proper configurations.
> 
> View attachment 12792255
> View attachment 12792261
> View attachment 12792259
> 
> 
> His collection was massive and impressive, but not without fault.


Polmax3133 believes the wheels should be all one color. Not a big deal for me as it could easily be a repair and easily fixed by replacing the silver one. Replacing all the brass ones with steel is another matter altogether.

My sturmanskie with all steel wheels and no-Poljot-crown movement:


----------



## schnurrp

Uros TSI said:


> Is this worth 5€ I paid?
> 
> The case is very good, dial is dirty but no damage, second hand a bit bent.
> 
> Can't open now. I will later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Yes.


----------



## schnurrp

jamesnorrisuk said:


> What do we think - worth a punt for £15?
> 
> View attachment 12792415


Looks promising but hard to say without a movement picture.


----------



## Stuey63

VWatchie said:


> I'm in the process of cleaning up and servicing this "Wostok Made in USSR" and have a few questions that I hope you can help me with.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. All Timegrapher readings are all over the place except the amplitude. I'm considering replacing the balance wheel but have never done so and wonder if there is an instructional post or video about it somewhere?​


It might be just an issue with the hairspring which appears either magnetized or stuck together through contamination.


----------



## VWatchie

_Posted this a few days ago but forgot to include pictures. It's quite possible no one has anything to say about this watch. In that case I'm sorry for re-posting. Thanks!_



VWatchie said:


> Thought it looked quite dressy and on a whim offered $20 (+ $8 shipping) for this watch and got it... I've only had Vostoks so far. What have I done? Did I buy a legit watch? Price OK?
> 
> EDIT: Here are a couple of pictures:
> 
> View attachment 12793025
> 
> 
> View attachment 12793031


----------



## schnurrp

VWatchie said:


> _Posted this a few days ago but forgot to include pictures. It's quite possible no one has anything to say about this watch. In that case I'm sorry for re-posting. Thanks!_


Looks authentic to me. Picture of similar ones from '92 catalog:


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Looks authentic to me. Picture of similar ones from '92 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 12795331


Thanks comrade! Second watch on the first row is very similar indeed. I suppose mine is some sort of export version as it says "POLJOT" and "MADE IN USSR" on the dial. I must say I feel quite excited to get acquainted with this, to me, "new" Soviet movement. I guess I can Google it, but if you have something to say about it, I'm, as always, your ardent reader!


----------



## Victorv

Neruda said:


> Victorv - I wouldn't be too disappointed! If you really want to get your watch correct, you should be able to pick up a 2214 donor watch or movement quite cheaply. Be aware though, that there were minor changes to the movement during the 1970s - so to be absolutely 100% you need to know when your watch was produced. For example this movement dates (I think) to approx 1972-1975:
> 
> View attachment 12791381
> 
> Before about 1972, the balance wheel is normally weighted. After about 1975, the ratchet wheel doesn't have the stars. If it has "Jewels 18" stamped on the bridge, it is an export model and the dial would have been marked "Vostok" not the Cyrillic "Boctok".
> 
> You could of course just enjoy the watch as it is! The change of movement may in fact be an old repair, and an integral part of the watch's history!





mroatman said:


> I concur -- the date should be red for a model this old. A small thing, really.
> 
> View attachment 12792253


Hello guys, many thanks for your help, it's awesome the level of knowledge on this forum. I think i'm going to keep my watch as it is until i have a donor watch.

Sorry for my delay on my answer, im a little bit busy these days

Any thought on my Pobeda?

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-75.html

Bests
Víctor


----------



## schnurrp

VWatchie said:


> Thanks comrade! Second watch on the first row is very similar indeed. I suppose mine is some sort of export version as it says "POLJOT" and "MADE IN USSR" on the dial. I must say I feel quite excited to get acquainted with this, to me, "new" Soviet movement. I guess I can Google it, but if you have something to say about it, I'm, as always, your ardent reader!


Glad to help, comrade and, yes, there is something special about that movement, the last one created at First Moscow. I have passed this along many times as I think it is a remarkable testament to this humble soviet movement: Jessica's Cornavin Dolphin | TimeZone.


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, many thanks for your help, it's awesome the level of knowledge on this forum. I think i'm going to keep my watch as it is until i have a donor watch.
> 
> Sorry for my delay on my answer, im a little bit busy these days
> 
> Any thought on my Pobeda?
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-75.html
> 
> Bests
> Víctor


The Second Moscow Pobeda? Yeah, it looks good me.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Glad to help, comrade and, yes, there is something special about that movement, the last one created at First Moscow. I have passed this along many times as I think it is a remarkable testament to this humble soviet movement: Jessica's Cornavin Dolphin | TimeZone.


Wow, what an interesting article! Sounds like a true fairy tale (I mean that in a real/positive sense). For anyone even the slightest into movements, especially Russian movements, don't miss out! Can't wait for my 2614.2H movement (and watch)! _Again, thanks comrade schnurrp!_


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> The Second Moscow Pobeda? Yeah, it looks good me.


Many thanks comrade, really. Yes, it must be the second moscow watch Factory Pobeda.

And abusing your knowledge, how do you know it is from the second factory in Moscow ? and my watch would be dated in the second quarter of 1954 right?

Sorry for the bunch of questions fellow, but i'm in love with this Pobeda and his blued hands. Im searching a good strap for him, and i think i'm gonna use It a lot

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Many thanks comrade, really. Yes, it must be the second moscow watch Factory Pobeda.
> 
> And abusing your knowledge, how do you know it is from the second factory in Moscow ? and my watch would be dated in the second quarter of 1954 right?
> 
> Sorry for the bunch of questions fellow, but i'm in love with this Pobeda and his blued hands. Im searching a good strap for him, and i think i'm gonna use It a lot
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


Says so on the dial and on the movement, comrade. Look here for movement logo: russian_logos


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> Says so on the dial and on the movement, comrade. Look here for movement logo: russian_logos


Wow, really interesting web. I put the web on my favorites. Again, thanks fellow

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## slls

XsiOn said:


> I could not resist..... and this beauty is on her way to me  Schnurrp, thanks for making me an Okean owner.... finally. Have one any suggestion where to start my quest for correct bezel crown?
> 
> BTW, with help of info of chrono wheel and Crown I lowered the price alright  Do you think, I should also find the correct chrono wheel as-well?
> 
> BR, Peter


During the transition period from metal coloured to brass coloured chrono wheels, many 3133 have a mix of both coulors. So it's not per se all metal or all brass coloured. EBay offers crowns, also the ST bezel crowns.


----------



## Kye752

Was looking for the version of this pobeda








And in my fruitless search for it (after seeing the white counterpart on dashiells site) i came across this guy a neva version of the white 




















Just wondering if its authentic or not i still have purhased it regardless because its still quite a lovely watch


----------



## mroatman

Kye752 said:


> Just wondering if its authentic or not


Looks good to me.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5199203855795342578&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## Kye752

mroatman said:


> Looks good to me.
> 
> https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5199203855795342578&oid=113098239036073221216
> 
> View attachment 12797961


Outstanding i'm still looking for the white Pobeda version so that they may compliment each other


----------



## schnurrp

slls said:


> During the transition period from metal coloured to brass coloured chrono wheels, many 3133 have a mix of both coulors. So it's not per se all metal or all brass coloured.


That's what I was thinking. I've never serviced a 3133 but I expect those wheels would last a long time considering how relatively rarely they are used so replacement would not be needed very often. They'd have to start out that way (mixed).


----------



## schnurrp

Oops!


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> Outstanding i'm still looking for the white Pobeda version so that they may compliment each other


I'd like to hear that!


----------



## Kye752

schnurrp said:


> I'd like to hear that!


Is this a dad joke?? 
Haha


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

The Pobeda is in... and the case is in better nick than I thought. No doubting that the dial is kinda beaten up, but for my 1st '50s watch I kinda like that.

The movement turns, but it stops frequently and its running fast. I noticed that the regulator is all the way to the side, could this be a contribution?

So... genuine or Franken? Looks good to me, but I'm new to this  strap looks old and has some cryllic writing on it, but doesn't look original to me... to wide, and the clasp is gold.

If its genuine, I'll probably send it to Mr. Ellis in Wales for a service.


----------



## schnurrp

jamesnorrisuk said:


> The Pobeda is in... and the case is in better nick than I thought. No doubting that the dial is kinda beaten up, but for my 1st '50s watch I kinda like that.
> 
> The movement turns, but it stops frequently and its running fast. I noticed that the regulator is all the way to the side, could this be a contribution?
> 
> So... genuine or Franken? Looks good to me, but I'm new to this  strap looks old and has some cryllic writing on it, but doesn't look original to me... to wide, and the clasp is gold.
> 
> If its genuine, I'll probably send it to Mr. Ellis in Wales for a service.
> 
> View attachment 12798367
> 
> View attachment 12798371
> 
> View attachment 12798369
> View attachment 12798373


I have one just like it, same year on the movement too, so of course I think yours is good. Mine also has what I believe is the original crystal and yours going by the lack of distortion at the edge may also be original. If it is, it would be worth your time and trouble to sand and polish the crystal. That would improve the appearance, greatly.

The movement needs a service, evidently and if you look closely you will see the plate with the two tiny screws that holds the intermediate winding gear needs to be replaced, if possible.

Classic Pobeda!


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

Great, thanks Schnurpp!

Was planning to polish the crystal with some polywatch this eve, so I'll let you know how I'll get on


----------



## Kye752

Now i have found what i believe to be a real sputnik watch i stared at it and checked it against many original real sputniks and now i would like your opinions about this is it real or franken?


----------



## bpmurray

Kye752 said:


> Now i have found what i believe to be a real sputnik watch i stared at it and checked it against many original real sputniks and now i would like your opinions about this is it real or franken?


The dial looks great, case is correct, crown looks correct. But for the black dial, the hands should be nickel, not gold. From my screen at least, these look gold.


----------



## Kye752

bpmurray said:


> The dial looks great, case is correct, crown looks correct. But for the black dial, the hands should be nickel, not gold. From my screen at least, these look gold.


No they're gold..... Damn it


----------



## bpmurray

Kye752 said:


> bpmurray said:
> 
> 
> 
> The dial looks great, case is correct, crown looks correct. But for the black dial, the hands should be nickel, not gold. From my screen at least, these look gold.
> 
> 
> 
> No they're gold..... Damn it
Click to expand...

So close! Good luck with your search.


----------



## Dub Rubb

Kye752 said:


> No they're gold..... Damn it


I have been on a search for the same watch. At least this one has the right second hand! So many fake dials and wrong hands to sort through, and I can't seem to find one in decent condition. Good luck with the search comrade. I was really excited for you for a minute there until someone brought up the nickel hands!

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kye752

Dub Rubb said:


> I have been on a search for the same watch. At least this one has the right second hand! So many fake dials and wrong hands to sort through, and I can't seem to find one in decent condition. Good luck with the search comrade. I was really excited for you for a minute there until someone brought up the nickel hands!
> 
> Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


I knoww i was excited myself ive found a few old ones with damaged dials so when i saw this i became quite excited its a shame it as the wrong hands though


----------



## Kye752

Should i still buy it and hunt for the correct hands though?


----------



## mroatman

Kye752 said:


> Should i still buy it and hunt for the correct hands though?


Impossible to find except on another Sputnik. Those hands were not found on any other model, to my knowledge.


----------



## bobski

I am looking to tap into the deep fountain of knowledge here!

I am interested to know what people think about this Zim? I am quite the novice regarding Soviet watches, so any help would be appreciated.

























Thanks in advance.


----------



## schnurrp

bobski said:


> I am looking to tap into the deep fountain of knowledge here!
> 
> I am interested to know what people think about this Zim? I am quite the novice regarding Soviet watches, so any help would be appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 12800375
> 
> 
> View attachment 12800377
> 
> 
> View attachment 12800379
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Looks good. From early '70s.


----------



## mroatman

bobski said:


> I am looking to tap into the deep fountain of knowledge here!
> I am interested to know what people think about this Zim? I am quite the novice regarding Soviet watches, so any help would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.


Looks good to me.


----------



## bobski

schnurrp said:


> Looks good. From early '70s.





mroatman said:


> Looks good to me.
> 
> View attachment 12800449
> 
> 
> View attachment 12800451


Wow you guys are great! Thanks.


----------



## Kye752

Thoughts on this dial??


----------



## mroatman

Kye752 said:


> Thoughts on this dial??


Legit.









Miro is a member here. Maybe you want to send "miroman" a PM before you buy on eBay.


----------



## Kye752

mroatman said:


> Legit.
> 
> View attachment 12800789
> 
> 
> Miro is a member here. Maybe you want to send "miroman" a PM before you buy on eBay.


Thank you dash this is actually more part of a studying up on the watch moment i noticed that the one in your collection the horse is facing west, where as this version its facing east i was just intrigued by the variation


----------



## mroatman

Kye752 said:


> Thank you dash this is actually more part of a studying up on the watch moment i noticed that the one in your collection the horse is facing west, where as this version its facing east i was just intrigued by the variation


The one facing west is a commemorative model produced in 1953. It says "250 Years Leningrad" in verrrrry tiny print on the dial.

The one facing east is more general, I think, produced over several years in the 1950s and early-60s.


----------



## Kye752

mroatman said:


> The one facing west is a commemorative model produced in 1953. It says "250 Years Leningrad" in verrrrry tiny print on the dial.
> 
> The one facing east is more general, I think, produced over several years in the 1950s and early-60s.


Wow i did notice the writing thats why i asked thinking the one i found was fake... These little watches and their quirks and variations huh?


----------



## Lost_Glove

Hello Everyone!

I'm totally new to the forum I decided to start of in this section. So, I received this lovely Luch today. What do you guys think of the dial?
Sorry, I can't get a photo of the movement. I've only opened one watch before out of curiosity and I'm not gonna try with this one. ;-)


----------



## kev80e

Another luch coincidently. I know really nothing about these but im sure I've seen this dial somewhere. Expert opinions needed. A bit concerned about the crown.


----------



## mroatman

Lost_Glove said:


> Hello Everyone!
> I'm totally new to the forum I decided to start of in this section. So, I received this lovely Luch today. What do you guys think of the dial?
> Sorry, I can't get a photo of the movement. I've only opened one watch before out of curiosity and I'm not gonna try with this one. ;-)


Absolutely original, and beautiful condition.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Another luch coincidently. I know really nothing about these but im sure I've seen this dial somewhere. Expert opinions needed. A bit concerned about the crown.


The dial is legitimate, but I think the hands should be black (this model is not in any catalog that I know of, unfortunately). The crown is surely replaced, as is commonly the case with these.


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> The dial is legitimate, but I think the hands should be black (this model is not in any catalog that I know of, unfortunately). The crown is surely replaced, as is commonly the case with these.
> 
> View attachment 12801425


Thanks Dashiell. I was unsure on the crown, different or in the setting position, looked to me similar to the one above it. The hands I don't have a clue so thanks for that. 
The dial seems a less common one so I'll see what i can get it for.


----------



## VWatchie

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Great, thanks Schnurpp!
> 
> Was planning to polish the crystal with some polywatch this eve, so I'll let you know how I'll get on


I think Polywatch is great for light scratches but in your case I'd recommend the sandpaper method as shown by mroatman here. Good luck and please let us see the result!

Once you're done (especially if you only use Polywatch), here's what seems to be a neat little finishing trick. Never tried it though and not sure it is safe so I can't recommend it. (Just found the link in my "link collection" for crystal treatment)


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> The dial is legitimate, but I think the hands should be black (this model is not in any catalog that I know of, unfortunately). The crown is surely replaced, as is commonly the case with these.
> 
> View attachment 12801425


Here's a group found in the '70 catalog which although they are in black and white appear to have black hands.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Here's a group found in the '70 catalog which although they are in black and white appear to have black hands.
> 
> View attachment 12802781


Thanks Paul. It seems the hands colour matches the indices colour. Wonder if I could paint them ?


----------



## Straight_time

I think to have found this watch listed as model 2209/9933070 on the 1977 catalog (page 34 of the .pdf file, #2).

I wouldn't be so sure that hands should be black; comparing it to model shown as #3 (undoubtely black) they look somehow thinner, as if it was due to light reflections on gilded finishing -see also model #5 which has the same effect.


----------



## kev80e

Straight_time said:


> I think to have found this watch listed as model 2209/9933070 on the 1977 catalog (page 34 of the .pdf file, #2).
> 
> I wouldn't be so sure that hands should be black; comparing it to model shown as #3 (undoubtely black) they look somehow thinner, as if it was due to light reflections on gilded finishing -see also model #5 which has the same effect.


Thanks for the info. Are these the ones your referring too. I'm on my mobile so can't see too well at the moment


----------



## Straight_time

Yep, the last page ;-)


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> I think to have found this watch listed as model 2209/9933070 on the 1977 catalog (page 34 of the .pdf file, #2).
> 
> I wouldn't be so sure that hands should be black; comparing it to model shown as #3 (undoubtely black) they look somehow thinner, as if it was due to light reflections on gilded finishing -see also model #5 which has the same effect.


Yes, that group has some with the newer Luch trademark and probably the newer case.

They can be painted. I would consider using either flat or satin black spray enamel, two or three thin coats.

I believe model #3 has those hands found only on Luchs with the black stripe in the middle.


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi all,

I have seen a handful of watches with this dial, but all with different cases. Do you think this case is the right one? If not, does anybody have an idea of what the right config should be?
Thanks in advance to the wise community of WUS for its help


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

VWatchie said:


> I think Polywatch is great for light scratches but in your case I'd recommend the sandpaper method as shown by mroatman here. Good luck and please let us see the result!
> 
> Once you're done (especially if you only use Polywatch), here's what seems to be a neat little finishing trick. Never tried it though and not sure it is safe so I can't recommend it. (Just found the link in my "link collection" for crystal treatment)


Thanks - as you said, Polywatch made a big difference but still left a couple of deep scratches, so I'll try the sandpaper method tomorrow and post before, middle and after pics.

I'm guessing I can remove the bezel in the same way Dash did with that Luch?


----------



## mapzv

Vostok Chistopol Hi I am pretty new to watches and had couple questions about the legitimacy of a vintage watch I am planning on buying. The seller states that the watch is a Vostok Chistopol. I was just a little c because the seller is shipping from Hong Kong when as opposed to Russia or the USSR. I was also suspicious because lots of Russian watches seem to have Russian writing on the back but this one doesn't. Since I really don't have a background when it comes to watches I was hoping if you guys would let me know if anything is off in these pictures.
View attachment 12804329
View attachment 12804331
View attachment 12804333
View attachment 12804335
View attachment 12804337
View attachment 12804339


----------



## mapzv

Hi I am pretty new to watches and had couple questions about the legitimacy of a vintage watch I am planning on buying. The seller (oleg_kr09) states that the watch is a Vostok Chistopol. I was just a little suspicious because the seller is shipping from Hong Kong when as opposed to Russia or the USSR. I was also suspicious because lots of Russian watches seem to have Russian writing on the back but this one doesn't. Since I really don't have a background when it comes to watches I was hoping if you guys would let me know if anything is off in these pictures.
View attachment 12804329

View attachment 12804331

View attachment 12804333

View attachment 12804335

View attachment 12804337

View attachment 12804339


----------



## ThePossumKing

mapzv said:


> Hi I am pretty new to watches and had couple questions about the legitimacy of a vintage watch I am planning on buying. The seller (oleg_kr09) states that the watch is a Vostok Chistopol. I was just a little suspicious because the seller is shipping from Hong Kong when as opposed to Russia or the USSR. I was also suspicious because lots of Russian watches seem to have Russian writing on the back but this one doesn't. Since I really don't have a background when it comes to watches I was hoping if you guys would let me know if anything is off in these pictures.
> View attachment 12804329
> 
> View attachment 12804331
> 
> View attachment 12804333
> 
> View attachment 12804335
> 
> View attachment 12804337
> 
> View attachment 12804339


none of your attachments work


----------



## Kye752

Reckon its legit?


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> Reckon its legit?
> View attachment 12807025
> View attachment 12807027
> View attachment 12807029


Yes, START made at Second Moscow Watch Factory with unique case design made from aluminum with some type of gold coating.


----------



## Kye752

What about this black variant i know the second hand on the sub dial is not like the other hands but that not the worst thing to fix


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> What about this black variant i know the second hand on the sub dial is not like the other hands but that not the worst thing to fix
> View attachment 12807977
> View attachment 12807979


No, that dial should be on one that looks like this:


----------



## Kye752

schnurrp said:


> No, that dial should be on one that looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 12808481


Excellent thank you i had no idea what the original looked like ive seen this one hanging around for a while and wondered why it hadn't been sold yet


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> Excellent thank you i had no idea what the original looked like ive seen this one hanging around for a while and wondered why it hadn't been sold yet


Just because an item appears authentic does not mean it will automatically have a buyer. The factors of personal preference, rarity, condition, price, etc. all enter in.


----------



## thewatchadude

Reposting this one (sorry for the size of the picture, no idea how to reduce it when posting)--photo from ebay.

Any view on whether this is the original casing and "bezeling" would be appreciated. if it's wrong, any idea on how it should be?


----------



## schnurrp

thewatchadude said:


> Reposting this one (sorry for the size of the picture, no idea how to reduce it when posting)--photo from ebay.
> 
> Any view on whether this is the original casing and "bezeling" would be appreciated. if it's wrong, any idea on how it should be?
> 
> View attachment 12808569


I hesitate to comment since I don't really study or collect post-soviet watches, but if no one else is going to comment, I would just say the lack of point of manufacture on the dial indicates this watch is from an era just after the fall of the USSR when parts were being used up often creating unique examples. It's pretty hard to establish authenticity for this period. That's an unusual case. Back and movement pictures might shed some light.


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> comparing it to model shown as #3 (undoubtely black)





schnurrp said:


> I believe model #3 has those hands found only on Luchs with the black stripe in the middle.


Paul is right. These hands aren't black. Here's a comparison of catalog versus reality:









My real-world experience tells me that, for the elongated Roman numeral dial that's in question, sunburst dials should have black hands, while matte dials should have gold hands. Of course I'm open to correction if new evidence suggests otherwise.

Unfortunately, the catalogs have such poor resolution that I don't think any certainty that can be gleaned from them.


----------



## thewatchadude

Thank you schnurrp. The caseback is that of an Amphibia--without number. I don't have a picture of the movement and actually haven't seen it--I would guess a 2414 as the watch is not automatic. The back doesn't bear the cyrillic "Automatic" mention but nevertheless is not flat? Re the case, I saw about half a dozen of these dials all in different cases--only exception being that I saw two in this particular one on the picture but they had other differences.

In terms of dating, my guess--and it's only that--is that it was produced for the 1992 February Singapore exhibition where the A-40 Albatros giant seaplane made its first public appearance. I think the date would be consistent with some non-standard features (eg. the second hand).


----------



## schnurrp

thewatchadude said:


> Thank you schnurrp. The caseback is that of an Amphibia--without number. I don't have a picture of the movement and actually haven't seen it--I would guess a 2414 as the watch is not automatic. The back doesn't bear the cyrillic "Automatic" mention but nevertheless is not flat? Re the case, I saw about half a dozen of these dials all in different cases--only exception being that I saw two in this particular one on the picture but they had other differences.
> 
> In terms of dating, my guess--and it's only that--is that it was produced for the 1992 February Singapore exhibition where the A-40 Albatros giant seaplane made its first public appearance. I think the date would be consistent with some non-standard features (eg. the second hand).


Good guess on the date.

It's very rare to find an amphibian with a 2414 movement. The only soviet one I'm familiar with is one of the many Desert Storm versions. The second hand looks okay to me but the lack of an arrow hour hand on an amphibian is rare and found on only a couple soviet examples, both of which are automatic, I think, and have straight second hands and are in a different case.

Typical of watches from this period.


----------



## MattBrace

schnurrp said:


> It's very rare to find an amphibian with a 2414 movement. The only soviet one I'm familiar with is one of the many Desert Storm versions.


Left & Right both use a 2414 movement and the same case type.


----------



## OrangeOrange

How does this look? And also what price would be a fair one for this? Thanks.


----------



## mroatman

OrangeOrange said:


> How does this look?


Perfect, inside and out. Really nice inscription, too.



OrangeOrange said:


> And also what price would be a fair one for this?


This is a desirable model, and I've seen them sell well above $100. Personally, I'd stop bidding around $70-80.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Perfect, inside and out. Really nice inscription, too.
> 
> This is a desirable model, and I've seen them sell well above $100. Personally, I'd stop bidding around $70-80.


Agree.

Might be all original. Would prefer the straight lug case but that one is correct too, I believe, and in good condition. A defect of this design is how thin the sides of the case are resulting in the back thread area wearing down at the crown to the point that sometimes it is very difficult to install the back. The chrome cases are less prone to this damage and this one looks fine.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Thoughts on this Slava diver? From the limited pics of these online it looks good other than what appears to be a replaced crown.


----------



## dutchassasin

it looks like the hands are relumed aswell. Is the crown tube still intact, hard to see on the pictures


----------



## mroatman

elsoldemayo said:


> Thoughts on this Slava diver? From the limited pics of these online it looks good other than what appears to be a replaced crown.





dutchassasin said:


> it looks like the hands are relumed as well.


I agree with dutch, seems like the hands could use some artificial ageing.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Hah, was concentrating so much on the colour of the minute hand I missed that. It's right on the limit of what I'd consider spending so think I'll give it a miss. Thanks as always for the eagle eyed observations.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, any opinion on this Amphibia? I think all is legit, but i'm in doubt with the bezel, i don't know if this model should have this mode, i have seen the same model with the vostok black bezel

And someone knows what caseback sould have?

Many thanks in advance


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, any opinion on this Amphibia? I think all is legit, but i'm in doubt with the bezel, i don't know if this model should have this mode, i have seen the same model with the vostok black bezel
> 
> And someone knows what caseback sould have?
> 
> Many thanks in advance


The only catalog picture I have of this amphibian, Victorv, shows the black bezel but Michele's usually very reliable site shows this:















I would be a buyer at the right price, I think.


----------



## Straight_time

I don't know whether that bezel could be legit too, but for what is worth my NOS example reflects the catalog entry :think:


----------



## Neruda

Here is the entry from the 1990 Tento catalogue:









Full catalogue at https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B889JfohTE3NblJ6VXp2WHVadU0/edit

It is perhaps significant that neither Michele's watch or VictorV's watch have the same dial as the catalogue or Straight-time's watch. The catalogue shows greenish hour indices and the 24 hour numerals in orange, while the other version has indices and numerals in white. So two dial versions may give some weight to two versions with the different bezels.

The chrome bezel with red and black quadrants appears in another 1990 Tento catalogue https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B889JfohTE3NZjN0NWdaWFNIR1k/edit

According to these catalogues, the black bezel was used with 2409A movements without date while the chrome bezel was used with the 2414A movements which have the date. However, it seems very plausible that VictorV's version could be either a little earlier or later than 1990 and represent a completely authentic version - but unless you can find one with a genuine passport, proving this definitively is difficult!


----------



## mroatman

I have learned to accept different bezels on Amphibians/Komandirskies, especially those from the later-80s and early-90s. But one rule that I wouldn't be comfortable breaking is that Amphibian models should have a lume pip on the bezel (and Komandirskie's shouldn't). Therefore, I consider both Victor's and Michele's replaced.

But of course I would say that. Mine is like Straight_time's. Just more crappy.


----------



## Straight_time

Neruda said:


> It is perhaps significant that neither Michele's watch or VictorV's watch have the same dial as the catalogue or Straight-time's watch. The catalogue shows greenish hour indices and the 24 hour numerals in orange, while the other version has indices and numerals in white. So two dial versions may give some weight to two versions with the different bezels.


Dials are indeed the same, just faded.
On this, and other similar models which share the same feature, the orange paint is subject to heavy discoloration with time and exposure to light, leaving only the green in place; there's a technical reason for this -how the orange color is chemically obtained- and I had already posted it somewhere, but alas I can't seem to find the thread now.
There is a (slim, IMHO) chance that bezels are ok anyway, but speaking of dials I'm absolutely convinced that those shown on catalogs are the only existing versions -no doubles.


----------



## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> Here is the entry from the 1990 Tento catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 12825943
> 
> 
> Full catalogue at https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B889JfohTE3NblJ6VXp2WHVadU0/edit
> 
> It is perhaps significant that neither Michele's watch or VictorV's watch have the same dial as the catalogue or Straight-time's watch. The catalogue shows greenish hour indices and the 24 hour numerals in orange, while the other version has indices and numerals in white. So two dial versions may give some weight to two versions with the different bezels.
> 
> The chrome bezel with red and black quadrants appears in another 1990 Tento catalogue https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B889JfohTE3NZjN0NWdaWFNIR1k/edit
> 
> According to these catalogues, the black bezel was used with 2409A movements without date while the chrome bezel was used with the 2414A movements which have the date. However, it seems very plausible that VictorV's version could be either a little earlier or later than 1990 and represent a completely authentic version - but unless you can find one with a genuine passport, proving this definitively is difficult!


That's how I see it, an earlier version.


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

Evening Comrades - what do you think to this? Dial and case look right to me, hands in theory but they look too short? The minute hand looks too dark but guessing this could be patina?


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> I don't know whether that bezel could be legit too, but for what is worth my NOS example reflects the catalog entry :think:
> 
> View attachment 12825701


Whoa! That's a beauty, comrade!


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Whoa! That's a beauty, comrade!


Mine:


----------



## XsiOn

Hi guys,

Can you pls help me determine what this watch is?










Thanks.


----------



## Bostok

XsiOn said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Can you pls help me determine what this watch is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.


Start, dating from around 1960, Petrodvorets Factory. 16 jewels movement if I recall well. Seems good to me but I'm no expert.


----------



## Kye752

Hey guys what do you think of this one?


----------



## schnurrp

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Evening Comrades - what do you think to this? Dial and case look right to me, hands in theory but they look too short? The minute hand looks too dark but guessing this could be patina?
> 
> View attachment 12826463


I agree, hands look too small. I think hands should look like this:


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> Hey guys what do you think of this one?
> 
> View attachment 12827285
> View attachment 12827287
> View attachment 12827289


Okay; crown has been replaced.


----------



## Kye752

schnurrp said:


> Okay; crown has been replaced.


How hard would it be to find a replacement crown? Its up for $45


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> How hard would it be to find a replacement crown? Its up for $45


Okay, now you're asking a different question. For me, the condition is not there. The case is a bit worn and I can't tell if all the lume dots are in place. If you want it I would make a lower offer and be on the lookout for one with a bad dial, not working, cheap, but with a nicer case (I would prefer gold) to retrofit. Crown should be easy to get; doesn't have to be perfect just not sticking out like that. Maybe seller forgot to push it in after setting hands. These are not that rare and I think you could find a nicer one for the money if you were patient.

Good luck!


----------



## mroatman

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Evening Comrades - what do you think to this? Dial and case look right to me, hands in theory but they look too short? The minute hand looks too dark but guessing this could be patina?





schnurrp said:


> I agree, hands look too small. I think hands should look like this:


Correct, wrong hands.


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

schnurrp said:


> I agree, hands look too small. I think hands should look like this:
> 
> View attachment 12827839


Oh yeah, that looks much classier... I'll hold fire on this one then. Guessing these hands are hard to source?


----------



## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> Hi guys,
> Can you pls help me determine what this watch is?
> Thanks.





Bostok said:


> Start, dating from around 1960, Petrodvorets Factory. 16 jewels movement if I recall well. Seems good to me but I'm no expert.


Bostok nailed it. That's an uncommon variant in exceptionally good condition (only needs a new crystal). Everything shown looks correct, including the crown. The movement should be a 2603 from Petrodvorets.

Nice find!


----------



## mroatman

Kye752 said:


> Hey guys what do you think of this one?





schnurrp said:


> Okay; crown has been replaced.


I agree with schnurrp regarding the crown and overall condition. Here it is in the catalog:









Side question: Has anyone tried to use one of these second hands as a Sputnik replacement? Seems like an obvious choice, though the Sputnik "dot" is maybe a tad small. Could this be where those too-small Sputnik hands are coming from....?

I'm talking about these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-ORIG...336527?hash=item2a9aa8224f:g:aqIAAOSwO7haQrhq
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-ORIG...205393?hash=item284c43d3d1:g:ovsAAOSwp7taT70M
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-ORIG...811246?hash=item284aee1eae:g:a3QAAOSwjlBaQrY7
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-ORIG...666603?hash=item284b3834eb:g:JjcAAOSwG0tZru93
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-RU...569793?hash=item2396c86101:g:5g0AAOSwxOFaTqUi


----------



## S.H.

Hi:

this one is a 3133 with full steel case, blank caseback:








http://www.ebay.de/itm/Poljot-Vintage-USSR-Russian-Soviet-watch-Chronograph-Sturmanskie-3133-black/362219421130
Should be a franken at first sight, right? But I still have some doubts, because last year (or the year before) I bought a similar one, with older hands (white lume), older movement and the older US10SR black dial. None are really sold as military chrono, so I'm not positive they are really recent frankens : we see most of the time sturmanskie dials and backs on civilian brass cases for the same price or more.

My theory is those steel 3133 were okeah/sturmanskie at first, then demilitarized for some reason. After all, why bother putting together such a watch with a blank caseback when you could just slap a new fake dial on any dirty civilian 3133 and sell for more, just look at the number of fake okeah sold the past year!

Am I thinking too much? what is you opinion?


----------



## Bostok

mroatman said:


> Side question: Has anyone tried to use one of these second hands as a Sputnik replacement? Seems like an obvious choice, though the Sputnik "dot" is maybe a tad small. Could this be where those too-small Sputnik hands are coming from....?
> 
> I'm talking about these:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-ORIG...336527?hash=item2a9aa8224f:g:aqIAAOSwO7haQrhq
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-ORIG...205393?hash=item284c43d3d1:g:ovsAAOSwp7taT70M
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-ORIG...811246?hash=item284aee1eae:g:a3QAAOSwjlBaQrY7
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-ORIG...666603?hash=item284b3834eb:g:JjcAAOSwG0tZru93
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-RU...569793?hash=item2396c86101:g:5g0AAOSwxOFaTqUi


Well done, Sherlock, I often wondered where those simillar but definitly franken hands were coming from, now we know.


----------



## Victorv

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Duplicated post


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> The only catalog picture I have of this amphibian, Victorv, shows the black bezel but Michele's usually very reliable site shows this:
> 
> View attachment 12823131
> View attachment 12823133
> 
> 
> I would be a buyer at the right price, I think.





Straight_time said:


> I don't know whether that bezel could be legit too, but for what is worth my NOS example reflects the catalog entry :think:
> 
> View attachment 12825701





Neruda said:


> Here is the entry from the 1990 Tento catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 12825943
> 
> 
> Full catalogue at https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B889JfohTE3NblJ6VXp2WHVadU0/edit
> 
> It is perhaps significant that neither Michele's watch or VictorV's watch have the same dial as the catalogue or Straight-time's watch. The catalogue shows greenish hour indices and the 24 hour numerals in orange, while the other version has indices and numerals in white. So two dial versions may give some weight to two versions with the different bezels.
> 
> The chrome bezel with red and black quadrants appears in another 1990 Tento catalogue https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B889JfohTE3NZjN0NWdaWFNIR1k/edit
> 
> According to these catalogues, the black bezel was used with 2409A movements without date while the chrome bezel was used with the 2414A movements which have the date. However, it seems very plausible that VictorV's version could be either a little earlier or later than 1990 and represent a completely authentic version - but unless you can find one with a genuine passport, proving this definitively is difficult!





mroatman said:


> I have learned to accept different bezels on Amphibians/Komandirskies, especially those from the later-80s and early-90s. But one rule that I wouldn't be comfortable breaking is that Amphibian models should have a lume pip on the bezel (and Komandirskie's shouldn't). Therefore, I consider both Victor's and Michele's replaced.
> 
> But of course I would say that. Mine is like Straight_time's. Just more crappy.
> 
> View attachment 12826261





Straight_time said:


> Dials are indeed the same, just faded.
> On this, and other similar models which share the same feature, the orange paint is subject to heavy discoloration with time and exposure to light, leaving only the green in place; there's a technical reason for this -how the orange color is chemically obtained- and I had already posted it somewhere, but alas I can't seem to find the thread now.
> There is a (slim, IMHO) chance that bezels are ok anyway, but speaking of dials I'm absolutely convinced that those shown on catalogs are the only existing versions -no doubles.





schnurrp said:


> That's how I see it, an earlier version.


Wow what an interesting information, many many thanks to all, really nice info.

Thanks comrades!!!!

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> Dials are indeed the same, just faded.
> On this, and other similar models which share the same feature, the orange paint is subject to heavy discoloration with time and exposure to light, leaving only the green in place; there's a technical reason for this -how the orange color is chemically obtained- and I had already posted it somewhere, but alas I can't seem to find the thread now.
> There is a (slim, IMHO) chance that bezels are ok anyway, but speaking of dials I'm absolutely convinced that those shown on catalogs are the only existing versions -no doubles.


That's what I thought until one day when I was expressing this belief amil chimed in that there were two different dials and I tend to believe that, now.


----------



## XsiOn

Hi guys,

I found this piece. The seller wants 30€. Is watch any good?


----------



## OrangeOrange

There seems to be a crack in the crystal between the 5 and 6 o'clock marks.


----------



## XsiOn

OrangeOrange said:


> There seems to be a crack in the crystal between the 5 and 6 o'clock marks.


It is. I was thinking how to repair (protect it) in case of buying this watch. Any idea?


----------



## Dalton1

Hello fellow watch lovers, I’m new to this forum and would like to ask any experts if this Rolex of mine has been redialed or has the dial been restored in any way. It was sold as being original but I am concerned that the condition is too good for a 1950s watch to be in untouched condition.
Thanks in advance for any response! (It is a reference 6085)


----------



## schnurrp

XsiOn said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I found this piece. The seller wants 30€. Is watch any good?


Losing some chrome-plating on the back and mine has the 17 jewel 2414 shown in the '70 catalog. Could be a repair or another version I'm not familiar with. I wouldn't give that crack in the crystal a second thought. Polish everything around it and it will tend to not be noticeable.

Dial's in good shape. I'd say fair price if it includes delivery and you're prepared to upgrade the movement if necessary.


----------



## schnurrp

Dalton1 said:


> Hello fellow watch lovers, I'm new to this forum and would like to ask any experts if this Rolex of mine has been redialed or has the dial been restored in any way. It was sold as being original but I am concerned that the condition is too good for a 1950s watch to be in untouched condition.
> Thanks in advance for any response! (It is a reference 6085)


Wrong forum, comrade. We do Russian watches here. Now if that was a Rolexskie.......


----------



## S.H.

Also, it seems clumsily printed and very clean => probably a redial


----------



## Straight_time

schnurrp said:


> That's what I thought until one day when I was expressing this belief amil chimed in that there were two different dials and I tend to believe that, now.


Amil's word on Vostoks deserves some consideration, but it can't be understated that

1. the 1990-1991 period is well covered by several catalogs, and none of them mentions any such dial variation;
2. those few examples in NOS condition with matching papers I have seen, were all referenced as 320161 models and still had orange details;
3. we lack any reasonable explanation (other than defective dials discarded by the quality control and ended up in somebody's hands, perhaps?) of why the Soviets might have wanted to produce two identical versions of the same watch, one of them having the very questionable feature of being "ordinarily" readable, opposed to the catalogued counterpart which was designed to be "high readability".

As far as I am concerned, given the currently available evidences and documentation, I'd still consider the green_ish_-dialed watches as faded ones... to confute this, I'd like to see an example (better if in NOS condition), necessarily complete with matching papers showing a reference other than 320161.


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> As far as I am concerned, given the currently available evidences and documentation, I'd still consider the green_ish_-dialed watches as faded ones


Agree.


----------



## mroatman

Dalton1 said:


> Hello fellow watch lovers, I'm new to this forum and would like to ask any experts if this Rolex of mine has been redialed or has the dial been restored in any way. It was sold as being original but I am concerned that the condition is too good for a 1950s watch to be in untouched condition.
> Thanks in advance for any response! (It is a reference 6085)





S.H. said:


> Also, it seems clumsily printed and very clean => probably a redial


I was going to say the same. I have zero experience with these, and even to my eyes it looks like a sloppy redial.

I'd give it a hard pass.


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> Amil's word on Vostoks deserves some consideration, but it can't be understated that
> 
> 1. the 1990-1991 period is well covered by several catalogs, and none of them mentions any such dial variation;
> 2. those few examples in NOS condition with matching papers I have seen, were all referenced as 320161 models and still had orange details;
> 3. we lack any reasonable explanation (other than defective dials discarded by the quality control and ended up in somebody's hands, perhaps?) of why the Soviets might have wanted to produce two identical versions of the same watch, one of them having the very questionable feature of being "ordinarily" readable, opposed to the catalogued counterpart which was designed to be "high readability".
> 
> As far as I am concerned, given the currently available evidences and documentation, I'd still consider the green_ish_-dialed watches as faded ones... to confute this, I'd like to see an example (better if in NOS condition), necessarily complete with matching papers showing a reference other than 320161.


Good points. I've never seen a NOS example of this dial design other than your beauty.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> I was going to say the same. I have zero experience with these, and even to my eyes it looks like a sloppy redial.
> 
> I'd give it a hard pass.


Looks like paper cut in around the hour bars?


----------



## kev80e

I'm not sure what to make of this. I can't find d anything in a catalogue ,search made much easier by Schnurrp, but it's nagging at me.


----------



## algoth

I'm looking to buy a 2209 and came across this quite fine-looking specimen on eBay, considering the price it might be even too good to be true but I'm not enough of an expert to tell. On one hand it does appear to have some signs of wear, and the movement would seem to match the model, on the other hand I'm not too sure about the spacings of the hour markers at 12 and the logo styling. I'd much appreciate a knowledgeable opinion on these images, thank you!


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Looks like paper cut in around the hour bars?


🤢🤢

More like paper cuts in my eyes.


----------



## mroatman

algoth said:


> I'm looking to buy a 2209 and came across this quite fine-looking specimen on eBay, considering the price it might be even too good to be true but I'm not enough of an expert to tell. On one hand it does appear to have some signs of wear, and the movement would seem to match the model, on the other hand I'm not too sure about the spacings of the hour markers at 12 and the logo styling. I'd much appreciate a knowledgeable opinion on these images, thank you!


Not legitimate.

The hands should be gold, the crown is too big, and the dial is a modern counterfeit (the top of the logo is cut off, and the "slashes" are the wrong shape).

Poljot De Lux - 2209
Help identify a fake Luch Ultra-Slim (2209)

Welcome!


----------



## XsiOn

Hi guys,

Did anybody see a plastic Amphibian before?

Peter


----------



## schnurrp

XsiOn said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Did anybody see a plastic Amphibian before?
> 
> Peter


Da, but kinda rare. That one looks authentic and should clean up nicely. I've never owned one.


----------



## kev80e

XsiOn said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Did anybody see a plastic Amphibian before?
> 
> Peter


Nice and I agree completely authentic. I have one with the other dial.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/plastic-vostok-arrived-2801906.html


----------



## mariomart

Here's mine  The dial has a nice color-shift effect.


----------



## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> Hi guys,
> Did anybody see a plastic Amphibian before?
> Peter


It's also shown in the 1990 catalog ?









Mine likely has a replaced bezel (original apparently doesn't have the lume pip).


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Da, but kinda rare. That one looks authentic and should clean up nicely. I've never owned one.


I should add, it's not an amphibian and it looks like there's a broken crystal to replace. I don't know if these use komandirskie crystals or what.


----------



## zharko

*Franken or original*

Hello fellow Russian watch fans. What's your opinion on the authenticity or frankenness of my new purchase. Tbilisi, €60. Thanks. If the images don't come out I will repost.


----------



## kev80e

kev80e said:


> I'm not sure what to make of this. I can't find d anything in a catalogue ,search made much easier by Schnurrp, but it's nagging at me.
> View attachment 12831951
> View attachment 12831953


Well still no idea if this is right or not , dial looks right but wrong. Anyway I got it £9 and apparently it runs so can't really go wrong can I ?


----------



## XsiOn

schnurrp said:


> I should add, it's not an amphibian and it looks like there's a broken crystal to replace. I don't know if these use komandirskie crystals or what.


Hmm.. The price is 40€ with shipping. Is this reasonable? If I will purchase this I will have to replace crystal... so if anyone knows what crystal it us.... I would be extremely grateful for info


----------



## XsiOn

Sorry, doubled post.


----------



## Uros TSI

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*














Does this watch have something missing - regarding the lower 8 o'clock crown?

Seems like in good condition, and if price is good I might snatch it.

Seller says that quick date button is not working and that setting time is skipping, but can set the time anyway.


----------



## hseldon

Got a couple here. Thoughts appreciated on this Zvezda and Luch. Can't see anything other than cosmetics wrong myself. Crystal obviously a bit beaten on the Zvezda and the dial has quite a patina. The crown looks very worn on the Luch but I think it is correct.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

hseldon said:


> Got a couple here. Thoughts appreciated on this Zvezda and Luch. Can't see anything other than cosmetics wrong myself. Crystal obviously a bit beaten on the Zvezda and the dial has quite a patina. The crown looks very worn on the Luch but I think it is correct.


Both look good!

Maybe the Luch should have the old-style case with rounded lugs, but unless you really care about the extra 10µm of gold plating, you're not missing much.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hey everyone!

It has been a while since I've been on this forum. I took a break from watches for a few months because it got a bit too expensive. We have probably all been there:-d

I now decided to only get the pieces that are high on my wish list. Near the top of this list is a pre-soviet imperial Russian watch. I found this H. Moser and was wondering if anyone can tell me if it is original. Although it is quite expensive I really like this one. 

Hope you can help me!


----------



## hseldon

mroatman said:


> Both look good!
> 
> Maybe the Luch should have the old-style case with rounded lugs, but unless you really care about the extra 10µm of gold plating, you're not missing much.


Cheers. Good spot. Not sure what I think about that. Always something wrong with these Luch slims. Usually the second hand. Not worried about the gold plating but the correct case would be nice. Maybe I'm too pedantic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> Hey everyone!
> 
> It has been a while since I've been on this forum. I took a break from watches for a few months because it got a bit too expensive. We have probably all been there:-d
> 
> I now decided to only get the pieces that are high on my wish list. Near the top of this list is a pre-soviet imperial Russian watch. I found this H. Moser and was wondering if anyone can tell me if it is original. Although it is quite expensive I really like this one.
> 
> Hope you can help me!


Welcome back, Jeroen!

The Moser looks really nice. Obviously the minute hand has broken off at the tip, and I'm not 100% convinced the crown is correct. But all the major parts check out and are in beautiful condition.

Oh, and check your email


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Here's some I've been considering. Legit?

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Russian-mechanical-watch-ZIM-Soviet-USSR-/253342915116

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Very-Rare-US...-Zarja-SKELETON-AU10-Serviced-2-/401347303112

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Rare-soviet-...al-1st-MChZ-USSR-SERVICED-1960s-/362212564151

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Russ...stwatch-1-MChZ-Kirova-17-Jewels-/152858009974

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Poljo-Watch-...088695?hash=item3f91be0377:g:x9YAAOSwO~VaXT7t

https://m.ebay.com/itm/USSR-Vintage...763907?hash=item3d55a33343:g:U8cAAOSwQupXWnc3

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



cptwalker said:


> Here's some I've been considering. Legit?
> 
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Russian-mechanical-watch-ZIM-Soviet-USSR-/253342915116
> 
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/Very-Rare-US...-Zarja-SKELETON-AU10-Serviced-2-/401347303112
> 
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/Rare-soviet-...al-1st-MChZ-USSR-SERVICED-1960s-/362212564151
> 
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Russ...stwatch-1-MChZ-Kirova-17-Jewels-/152858009974
> 
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/Poljo-Watch-...088695?hash=item3f91be0377:g:x9YAAOSwO~VaXT7t
> 
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/USSR-Vintage...763907?hash=item3d55a33343:g:U8cAAOSwQupXWnc3
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


All look legit to me except for the crystal and crown on the last one, comrade.


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> All look legit to me except for the crystal and crown on the last one, comrade.


Noted, thanks. Good eye

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


----------



## NuttySlack

What do comrades make of this '50s' Sturmanskie 'Gagarin' watch?:


----------



## Straight_time

Not considering the missing lume on the dial, it has wrong set of hands and crown... :think:


----------



## Straight_time

The overall design of this dial (assuming the grey star was actually red, now faded) is very similar to the one with the grey aircarrier, but I can't recall to have ever seen this version; a very quick search on the usual catalogs returned no results, so I'm asking for help from more knowledgeable comrades...can anyone confirm its legitimacy?


----------



## bpmurray

Straight_time said:


> Not considering the missing lume on the dial, it has wrong set of hands and crown... :think:


Yep. Also, the 15j version should have the quarter and date stamped on the movement; this one does not.


----------



## NuttySlack

bpmurray said:


> Yep. Also, the 15j version should have the quarter and date stamped on the movement; this one does not.


Thanks, I had thought the hands were suspect. Saves me a 3 figure sum!

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> This overall design of this dial (assuming the grey star was actually a faded red) is very similar to the one with the grey aircarrier, but I can't recall to have ever seen this version; a very quick search on the catalogs returned no results, so I'm asking for help from more knowledgeable comrades...can anyone confirm its legitimacy?


Oooo very nice. I lean toward authentic, but without evidence.

I'd buy it before you start thinking too logically about it...


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Oooo very nice. I lean toward authentic, but without evidence.
> 
> I'd buy it before you start thinking too logically about it...


I totally agree, there was a discussion about these somewhere here but I can't find it. Nice find.


----------



## Straight_time

If I recall correctly, that old discussion was about 1 noticeably faked dial and 2 (likely) authentic versions with the aircarrier facing left or right, not about the lack of it.

What really confuses me, is that this watch is sold as "NOS" (and it truly seems so) but its certificate, whose *handwritten* S/N matches the one stamped on the caseback, refers to another model, which appears on catalogs: 470298 -that is, this one:










This raises a few questions with no easy answers...
- how likely it is, that somebody had a 100% original watch -as shown above- in NOS conditions with box and papers, and swapped the dial with another one very seldom seen (if ever at all)?
- let's assume that the S/N is not factory original, but put on a blank certificate by somebody else at a later stage to "legitimate" another watch. Where could such dial come from anyway?
- let's assume that the certificate is original, but had been mistakenly swapped at the factory (thus justifying the correct S/N). What is then the correct reference number for this model?

An important detail to consider: the watch is not advertised as "mega-rare" or the likes, and its asking price is definitely average -or even a little below that- for this kind of items, so greedy profit is hardly an explanation.

Opinions/guessings anybody :-s



> I'd buy it before you start thinking too logically about it...


I would have already done it ;-) if not for the reference number issue (I hate the idea of knowingly buying a questionable watch). :rodekaart
But maybe it could be worth it anyway - shouldn't we find an acceptable theory, I could always go searching for a genuine 298 dial and restore it to its -supposed- originality... :think:


----------



## cptwalker

Opinions on this one?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-sovi...%3A353fb9861610aa16af6a34f7ffd5375d%7Ciid%3A1


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> If I recall correctly, that old discussion was about 1 noticeably faked dial and 2 (likely) authentic versions with the aircarrier facing left or right, not about the lack of it.
> 
> What really confuses me, is that this watch is sold as "NOS" (and it truly seems so) but its certificate, whose *handwritten* S/N matches the one stamped on the caseback, refers to another model, which appears on catalogs: 470298 -that is, this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This raises a few questions with no easy answers...
> - how likely it is, that somebody had a 100% original watch -as shown above- in NOS conditions with box and papers, and swapped the dial with another one very seldom seen (if ever at all)?
> - let's assume that the S/N is not factory original, but put on a blank certificate by somebody else at a later stage to "legitimate" another watch. Where could such dial come from anyway?
> - let's assume that the certificate is original, but had been mistakenly swapped at the factory (thus justifying the correct S/N). What is then the correct reference number for this model?
> 
> An important detail to consider: the watch is not advertised as "mega-rare" or the likes, and its asking price is definitely average -or even a little below that- for this kind of items, so greedy profit is hardly an explanation.
> 
> Opinions/guessings anybody :-s
> 
> I would have already done it ;-) if not for the reference number issue (I hate the idea of knowingly buying a questionable watch). :rodekaart
> But maybe it could be worth it anyway - shouldn't we find an acceptable theory, I could always go searching for a genuine 298 dial and restore it to its -supposed- originality... :think:


Could be a discarded dial that wasn't printed with the ship, for some reason. Amil has had some "mistakes" for sale before but usually the jewel count is wrong.


----------



## kev80e

Straight_time said:


> If I recall correctly, that old discussion was about 1 noticeably faked dial and 2 (likely) authentic versions with the aircarrier facing left or right, not about the lack of it.
> 
> What really confuses me, is that this watch is sold as "NOS" (and it truly seems so) but its certificate, whose *handwritten* S/N matches the one stamped on the caseback, refers to another model, which appears on catalogs: 470298 -that is, this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This raises a few questions with no easy answers...
> - how likely it is, that somebody had a 100% original watch -as shown above- in NOS conditions with box and papers, and swapped the dial with another one very seldom seen (if ever at all)?
> - let's assume that the S/N is not factory original, but put on a blank certificate by somebody else at a later stage to "legitimate" another watch. Where could such dial come from anyway?
> - let's assume that the certificate is original, but had been mistakenly swapped at the factory (thus justifying the correct S/N). What is then the correct reference number for this model?
> 
> An important detail to consider: the watch is not advertised as "mega-rare" or the likes, and its asking price is definitely average -or even a little below that- for this kind of items, so greedy profit is hardly an explanation.
> 
> Opinions/guessings anybody :-s
> 
> I would have already done it ;-) if not for the reference number issue (I hate the idea of knowingly buying a questionable watch). :rodekaart
> But maybe it could be worth it anyway - shouldn't we find an acceptable theory, I could always go searching for a genuine 298 dial and restore it to its -supposed- originality... :think:


Looking at it maybe the case and paperwork were together but never used then matched up with this dial . The bezel looks a bit used to my eyes.


----------



## Straight_time

schnurrp said:


> Could be a discarded dial that wasn't printed with the ship, for some reason. Amil has had some "mistakes" for sale before but usually the jewel count is wrong.


I also thought of something like that, but this doesn't give a satisfactory answer to the first question, IMHO: 
_"how likely it is, that somebody had a 100% original watch -as shown above- in NOS conditions with box and papers, and swapped the dial with another one very seldom seen (if ever at all)?"_



kev80e said:


> Looking at it maybe the case and paperwork were together but never used then matched up with this dial . The bezel looks a bit used to my eyes.


Good point, I looked better at the pictures of the sales ad after posting and noticed the loss of paint and possibly a few light marks on the bezel.
Problem is, we'd have to explain the rather extraordinary case of a likely NOS case (no pun intended), complete with matching passport indicating that it belonged to another model, whose original dial was so messed up to require a substitution...hard to believe it, with such pristine overall conditions:


----------



## n00bn

I bought this one on ebay as I liked the look of it but should have perhaps checked here if it was a fake. So what do you guys think, is it a fake?

In my independent investigation, I've found similar arms on a 80's Maslenikov Factory watch in the huge catalogue of ussrtime.com. But two things are of concern, first is I haven't been able to find a dial like this anywhere. Secondly, nobody else was bidding on the watch.


----------



## schnurrp

Looks fine to me. ZIMs are found with many many different dial designs and very little in the way of catalog help. That one looks like a typical ZIM design.


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> An important detail to consider: the watch is not advertised as "mega-rare" or the likes, and its asking price is definitely average -or even a little below that- for this kind of items, so greedy profit is hardly an explanation.
> Opinions/guessings anybody :-s


You're thinking too logically!



cptwalker said:


> Opinions on this one?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-sovi...%3A353fb9861610aa16af6a34f7ffd5375d%7Ciid%3A1


Replaced minute hand and crown. Price too high, even if it were 100% authentic.


----------



## Neruda

Anyone seen this Komandirskie dial before? Are there symbols (horoscope perhaps) on the inner white circle?









Thanks!


----------



## VWatchie

*Wostok Made in USSR "Moon Rise"*

_Warning OT, not about "legit or Franken" (already established in this post)._

So, finally finished servicing, repairing, and cleaning my _Wostok Made in USSR "Moon Rise"_! No other watch project has given me so many headaches, and no other watch project has provided me with so many opportunities to learn about Vostoks and watchmaking. Also, this was the first time I used mroatman's sandpaper method for restoring the crystal, and it worked perfectly (Thanks!). I also used a bunch of toothpicks to scrape off _ALL_ human goo inside and outside the watch case. It was quite yucky, especially under the stereomicroscope. I'd say the condition of the watch is now perfectly clean vintage.








*One of many challenges was to get the date complication to work properly. As can be seen in the above "before service picture" the calendar cam spring had been replaced with a "homemade contraption"; the reason being that the pin that was to hold the original spring in place was missing.
*







*Movement cleaned, serviced, and repaired.*








*Timegrapher after service! The original graph was all over the place making no sense whatsoever.
*







*Side-view of the sandpapered and polished crystal!
*







*Resting on my workbench!*








*The final result!*


----------



## gorelowo11

*Re: Wostok Made in USSR "Moon Rise"*

Excellent! Great job!


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness

Is this Gagarin Shturmanskie Type 2 17J legit? Looks okay to me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIG-GAGAR...439516?hash=item3628e6aa5c:g:wUEAAOSwEEBaIGZk


----------



## schnurrp

CyanideAndHappiness said:


> Is this Gagarin Shturmanskie Type 2 17J legit? Looks okay to me.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIG-GAGAR...439516?hash=item3628e6aa5c:g:wUEAAOSwEEBaIGZk


Looks good to me. Rare to see a dial left alone after all the red color has faded out at the flying bomb and 12 o'clock bar. It would be nice if it had a set of hands with bluing in a little better condition with lume that more nearly matches the dial lume. Crystal is a replacement and case is in better condition than the dial (should be the other way around, probably). Too expensive but a little tough negotiating might get it down to where it should be.


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness

schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me. Rare to see a dial left alone after all the red color has faded out at the flying bomb and 12 o'clock bar. It would be nice if it had a set of hands with bluing in a little better condition with lume that more nearly matches the dial lume. Crystal is a replacement and case is in better condition than the dial (should be the other way around, probably). Too expensive but a little tough negotiating might get it down to where it should be.


Thanks for the feedback. I did not know think to look at the crystal! I agree it is a little too expensive at the moment, might put in a offer at a lower price.


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

What do we think comrades? I haven't seen this dial/case combo before, and the hands are normally gold with the slash dials? I ask because I like the look...


----------



## mroatman

jamesnorrisuk said:


> What do we think comrades? I haven't seen this dial/case combo before, and the hands are normally gold with the slash dials? I ask because I like the look...


----------



## ThePossumKing

I NEVER go to those 'antique jewelry and watches' shows that are in hotel conference centers. Never. They are always jam packed with "Swiss' watches from the '50s and '60s at ridiculous prices and snotty dealers.
But my mother wanted to go because there were a few vendors that advertised that they buy vintage costume jewelry and she has a lot of it from her mother.
So we went to one yesterday.

While I was just looking, I found a dealer with a bunch of Soviet era 'Dirskies, and was looking at those. He was loudly spouting the usual 'Only given to members of the Special Forces! These were only available to the military! $100 each!' and I almost passed out from laughing. The dealer a couple down from him saw my reaction and asked if I was going to laugh at his Soviet watches as well. He had a 119 cased export Amphibia, a 1MWF Pobeda, a couple of '70s or '80s Latin dialed Poljots, a basic 3133 and this 














I asked to see it, asked the price, saw that it worked, haggled with him some and then bought it.

Hopefully I didn't get taken. It wasn't eBay expensive, but it wasn't cheap either.

Dated 1-54


----------



## mariomart

Well done TPK |>

I love the dial, it still looks fresh and all the lume matches :-!

I don't know a lot about these but to my untrained eye it all looks good.


----------



## schnurrp

ThePossumKing said:


> I NEVER go to those 'antique jewelry and watches' shows that are in hotel conference centers. Never. They are always jam packed with "Swiss' watches from the '50s and '60s at ridiculous prices and snotty dealers.
> But my mother wanted to go because there were a few vendors that advertised that they buy vintage costume jewelry and she has a lot of it from her mother.
> So we went to one yesterday.
> 
> While I was just looking, I found a dealer with a bunch of Soviet era 'Dirskies, and was looking at those. He was loudly spouting the usual 'Only given to members of the Special Forces! These were only available to the military! $100 each!' and I almost passed out from laughing. The dealer a couple down from him saw my reaction and asked if I was going to laugh at his Soviet watches as well. He had a 119 cased export Amphibia, a 1MWF Pobeda, a couple of '70s or '80s Latin dialed Poljots, a basic 3133 and this
> View attachment 12850683
> View attachment 12850685
> 
> 
> I asked to see it, asked the price, saw that it worked, haggled with him some and then bought it.
> 
> Hopefully I didn't get taken. It wasn't eBay expensive, but it wasn't cheap either.
> 
> Dated 1-54


Looks like the wrong movement, comrade. Does it hack?

If it doesn't and you don't want to fool with trying to find a very rare movement, pm me, I may be interested in buying it at the right price for parts (I also have some nice trading bait).


----------



## ThePossumKing

schnurrp said:


> Looks like the wrong movement, comrade. Does it hack?
> 
> If it doesn't and you don't want to fool with trying to find a very rare movement, pm me, I may be interested in buying it at the right price for parts (I also have some nice trading bait).


It does hack. That was the second thing I checked :-d


----------



## schnurrp

ThePossumKing said:


> It does hack. That was the second thing I checked :-d


Yes, I've seen that before. The recessed jewels usually found on the hacking 41-m movements really have nothing to do with the hacking of the movement so it is possible to see a movement like yours with flush jewels that still hacks. This is what most collectors like to see in their sturmanskies of that age:









Still interested if you want to sell it.


----------



## mroatman

ThePossumKing said:


> I asked to see it, asked the price, saw that it worked, haggled with him some and then bought it.
> Hopefully I didn't get taken. It wasn't eBay expensive, but it wasn't cheap either.





schnurrp said:


> Looks like the wrong movement, comrade. Does it hack?





schnurrp said:


> his is what most collectors like to see in their sturmanskies of that age:


I, too, had the same initial reaction as schnurrp. Looks like a "regular" Pobeda movement. But looking more closely, this just doesn't make sense -- everything else is too perfect.

I think the photo you took does not show the depth of the jewel recesses. If I look very hard, kind of squint, and tilt my head to the side a little, I think I can just barely make out the larger jewel wells on your movement. If you could post another movement photo at a slight angle (not directly from above), that will confirm it.

However you cut it, that's one of the nicest cases, crowns, dials, and handsets I've seen in a long time. Even if it were a quartz movement inside, the watch would have some serious value. And I think I see sparkles........


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

mroatman said:


>


Well that answers that! As soon as I posted I knew I was a numpty... great reference btw!


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> I, too, had the same initial reaction as schnurrp. Looks like a "regular" Pobeda movement. But looking more closely, this just doesn't make sense -- everything else is too perfect.
> 
> I think the photo you took does not show the depth of the jewel recesses. If I look very hard, kind of squint, and tilt my head to the side a little, I think I can just barely make out the larger jewel wells on your movement. If you could post another movement photo at a slight angle (not directly from above), that will confirm it.
> 
> However you cut it, that's one of the nicest cases, crowns, dials, and handsets I've seen in a long time. Even if it were a quartz movement inside, the watch would have some serious value. And I think I see sparkles........


I think you're right, comrade.


----------



## miroman

mroatman said:


> I, too, had the same initial reaction as schnurrp. Looks like a "regular" Pobeda movement. But looking more closely, this just doesn't make sense -- everything else is too perfect.
> 
> I think the photo you took does not show the depth of the jewel recesses. If I look very hard, kind of squint, and tilt my head to the side a little, I think I can just barely make out the larger jewel wells on your movement. If you could post another movement photo at a slight angle (not directly from above), that will confirm it.
> 
> However you cut it, that's one of the nicest cases, crowns, dials, and handsets I've seen in a long time. Even if it were a quartz movement inside, the watch would have some serious value. And I think I see sparkles........


I think there are no recesses on the plate - the reflection of the 'geneve stripes' look straight. 
Also I'm not sure if Sturmanskie were in production in '54 - I've seen from '50 to '53 and don't remember '54.
But as the main plate is genuine (with decoration under the balance, while Pobeda's is without), maybe it's original - and maybe in '54 there were no plates with recesses, so a normal plate was mounted.

It's interesting to see the inside of the back - it should be without decoration.

Regards, Miro.


----------



## GM7

Hello friends. I was lurking and having serious fun while reading this thread. I am a young guy and just started my journey in the watch world with a Seiko snkn90j1.
I called my father and asked him, if he has any watches at home and yes he did. 

So I will post now (my) small collection of Russian watches.

First of all, do they look real/undamaged. Second is it worth paying for their cleaning /repairing if needed? I used Google and this amazing forum, and my watches don't seem to be expensive. I will try to keep them as a memento, because there is some small details about them and father prohibited to sell them.

Soo.. 
Nr. 1 is Poljot de luxe 29 jewels automatic. This was my grandfather's, he bought it when he bought his first own car. I believe it is working OK. When I move it, I kind of hear it winding itself, is this OK? 

Nr. 2 is a newer Poljot alarm, which was my father's. He bought it while visiting St. Petersburg in 199x. He was using it a lot.. 

Nr. 3 is Molnija pocket watch. It was just found in a drawer. No story. 

Nr. 4 is slava, it is working, except day of the week is stuck. Would it be costly to fix? 

Nr. 5 is my mother's watch, my dad bought it for her twenty something years ago, but she doesn't like golden color. 

So, do you guys have any comments. 

Thank you for your time and attention. I am having a blast enjoying this new hobby of mine.


----------



## schnurrp

They all have value to you, I'm sure, but to me the Poljot 29 jewel automatic is by far the most desirable and valuable of the lot. It appears to be in very nice condition with its original "bubble" crystal. 

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness

schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me. Rare to see a dial left alone after all the red color has faded out at the flying bomb and 12 o'clock bar. It would be nice if it had a set of hands with bluing in a little better condition with lume that more nearly matches the dial lume. Crystal is a replacement and case is in better condition than the dial (should be the other way around, probably). Too expensive but a little tough negotiating might get it down to where it should be.


Got another question, is the crystal supposed to be domed like the 15j? Also does the crown look off?

I'm thinking about putting in an offer for around $350, don't know how much they are going for these days.


----------



## ThePossumKing

miroman said:


> I think there are no recesses on the plate - the reflection of the 'geneve stripes' look straight.
> Also I'm not sure if Sturmanskie were in production in '54 - I've seen from '50 to '53 and don't remember '54.
> But as the main plate is genuine (with decoration under the balance, while Pobeda's is without), maybe it's original - and maybe in '54 there were no plates with recesses, so a normal plate was mounted.
> 
> It's interesting to see the inside of the back - it should be without decoration.
> 
> Regards, Miro.


Here's a different angle of the jewels in question and a pic of the inside of the back









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

ThePossumKing said:


> Here's a different angle of the jewels in question and a pic of the inside of the back
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, it is a different angle, I'll give you that, but kind of hard to see. 
The bridge with the recessed jewels is thicker as shown below on the 17j version and that one in the picture doesn't look that thick although it's hard to tell for sure.

Does it look more like the one on the left or the one on the right, below (disregard the cap jewel on the right hand example).


----------



## GM7

schnurrp said:


> They all have value to you, I'm sure, but to me the Poljot 29 jewel automatic is by far the most desirable and valuable of the lot. It appears to be in very nice condition with its original "bubble" crystal.
> 
> Thanks for sharing!


Thank you! I like the Poljot the most of them all.


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&amp;amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

(double post)


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



cptwalker said:


> Interesting stylized dial text on this budget pobeda. Is it legit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


Yes, looks like this one of Mroatman's:









Crown has been replaced.


----------



## cptwalker

Opinions on these two other pobedas?

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sovi...924379?hash=item4b360637db:g:230AAOSwax5YsCDb

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Soviet-watch-POBEDA-1960s-/323028945493

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> Opinions on these two other pobedas?
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sovi...924379?hash=item4b360637db:g:230AAOSwax5YsCDb
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/Soviet-watch-POBEDA-1960s-/323028945493


Both look fine to me. Nice to see a catalog reference in the seller photos, I hope that catches on.

Be aware that the second one is very small, less than 30mm in diameter.


----------



## mroatman

ThePossumKing said:


> Here's a different angle of the jewels in question and a pic of the inside of the back


Case-back checks out. And with the hacking complication, it's pretty hard to argue this movement isn't at least mostly original.

Time to rewrite the history books?


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mroatman said:


> Be aware that the second one is very small, less than 30mm in diameter.


It's still a mens' watch for the time?

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


----------



## kev80e

I'd like to hear your opinions on this raketa 2610 . The






movement is correct with its shield just not sure about the seconds hand.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> I'd like to hear your opinions on this raketa 2610 . The
> View attachment 12855413
> movement is correct with its shield just not sure about the seconds hand.


I don't have a catalog picture showing that dial design with a red second hand although the gold one is not pictured so I would tend to believe it was replaced but that wouldn't stop me from considering purchase at the right price since it's so nice in other respects.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> I don't have a catalog picture showing that dial design with a red second hand although the gold one is not pictured so I would tend to believe it was replaced but that wouldn't stop me from considering purchase at the right price since it's so nice in other respects.


I think your right. The more I look at it the more it looks too red. Wonder if a raketa 2609 one would fit it. 
Thanks for your help , again


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> I think your right. The more I look at it the more it looks too red. Wonder if a raketa 2609 one would fit it.
> Thanks for your help , again


As a matter of fact if I remember correctly the 2610 has a longer cannon pinion and hour wheel to clear the sub-dial antimagnetic shield so instead of also making the second hand pinion longer the second hand has a longer central barrel to reach the second hand pinion. You might luck out and the use of a little paint remover may expose a gold finish underneath.

From this old thread:


----------



## kev80e

Brilliant information thanks Paul. I never considered stripping it , I think even if it's silver it would look better than this hideous bright red. Cheers.


----------



## Dub Rubb

What do we think about this one comrades? No movement shots, but is allegedly NOS.









Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Dub Rubb said:


> What do we think about this one comrades? No movement shots, but is allegedly NOS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk


Looks good.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



cptwalker said:


> It's still a mens' watch for the time?


Yes indeed! If you are familiar with the size of the famous Pobeda 'Red 12', this is the same. These were common sizes in the 1950s, but most today would consider these ladies watches.



kev80e said:


> I'd like to hear your opinions on this raketa 2610 . The movement is correct with its shield just not sure about the seconds hand.





schnurrp said:


> I don't have a catalog picture showing that dial design with a red second hand although the gold one is not pictured so I would tend to believe it was replaced but that wouldn't stop me from considering purchase at the right price since it's so nice in other respects.





kev80e said:


> I think your right. The more I look at it the more it looks too red. Wonder if a raketa 2609 one would fit it.
> Thanks for your help , again


In my opinion, the second hand should be black, extra-thin, and reach all the way to the minute track. The catalog shows something different, but I've never seen this configuration on a watch I'd consider authentic.

View attachment collage.jpg


The red second hand is definitely not authentic. This watch comes from Roman Shiller's collection. His photography is pretty easy to recognize, but even more recognizable is all those painted red second hands...


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mroatman said:


> Yes indeed! If you are familiar with the size of the famous Pobeda 'Red 12', this is the same. These were common sizes in the 1950s, but most today would consider these ladies watches.
> 
> In my opinion, the second hand should be black, extra-thin, and reach all the way to the minute track. The catalog shows something different, but I've never seen this configuration on a watch I'd consider authentic.
> 
> View attachment 12858023
> 
> 
> The red second hand is definitely not authentic. This watch comes from Roman Shiller's collection. His photography is pretty easy to recognize, but even more recognizable is all those painted red second hands...


Thanks very much Dashiell. You are quite correct about it coming from Roman, the abundance of red seconds hands on his watches was what made me ask. As Paul pointed out finding a replacement correct hand wouldn't easy so think I have to pass on it.


----------



## jules2.1

Hello everyone,
Long time lurker but it's time for a first post.
I'm after a Raketa Zero, does that one seem like an original to you guys? Can't seem to find anything wrong with it.
Seller is asking $70 (plus shipping), does that seem fair? 
Ta


----------



## Neruda

I'd be interested in other opinions, but I suspect this is a modern laser-printed dial - the edges of the numerals seem very fuzzy with a spread of tiny black dots around them.


----------



## schnurrp

jules2.1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> Long time lurker but it's time for a first post.
> I'm after a Raketa Zero, does that one seem like an original to you guys? Can't seem to find anything wrong with it.
> Seller is asking $70 (plus shipping), does that seem fair?
> Ta
> View attachment 12858841
> View attachment 12858843
> View attachment 12858845


The printing looks sub-standard.

Look at mine which is supposedly NOS with papers and all:


----------



## jules2.1

schnurrp said:


> The printing looks sub-standard.
> 
> Look at mine which is supposedly NOS with papers and all:


Yeah I can see the difference. Thanks mate.

Can't seem to find any recent average price for what would be an original/nos one.
I know it's really up to the watch condition and the seller but would you have any idea at all?


----------



## jules2.1

Neruda said:


> I'd be interested in other opinions, but I suspect this is a modern laser-printed dial - the edges of the numerals seem very fuzzy with a spread of tiny black dots around them.


It does seem this way yeah... 
thanks


----------



## mroatman

jules2.1 said:


> Can't seem to find any recent average price for what would be an original/nos one.
> I know it's really up to the watch condition and the seller but would you have any idea at all?


Expect to pay anywhere from $60-100 for a nice one. NOS will be higher, most likely.

Look here for an original: https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_od...313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xzero.TRS0&_nkw=zero&_sacat=0


----------



## jules2.1

mroatman said:


> Expect to pay anywhere from $60-100 for a nice one. NOS will be higher, most likely.
> 
> Look here for an original: link removed due to me being a new member


Hmm, the pictures I posted higher up asking if it was genuine is from one of the watches in that list (the $70 one)


----------



## schnurrp

jules2.1 said:


> Hmm, the pictures I posted higher up asking if it was genuine is from one of the watches in that list (the $70 one)


Hmm, that seller is usually very reliable but I wouldn't be buying that one without some explanation. Printing is very bad. A quick look at other offerings didn't find a reasonably-priced example with the classic dial/hands. Must be a lull because these are usually fairly available at a reasonable price. Just have to be patient and keep looking, I guess.


----------



## mroatman

jules2.1 said:


> Hmm, the pictures I posted higher up asking if it was genuine is from one of the watches in that list (the $70 one)


That is odd. No seller is perfect, I suppose, but I'm honestly surprised.

Here's a nice NOS example with original paperwork if don't mind gold: https://www.etsy.com/listing/577787...&ga_search_query=big zero&ref=sr_gallery-1-27


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness

What do you guys think?


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness




----------



## OrangeOrange

Edit: nevermind.


----------



## schnurrp

Sturmanskie looks good to me. Nice, in a way, that the dial hasn't been "restored" with new red accents at the flying bomb and hour mark. Unfortunate that such a pristine second hand is used but since it is obviously a replacement or has been re-painted you should be able to find another replacement from a sportivnie in a condition more in keeping with the rest of the watch. I wouldn't pay top dollar for this one, however.

You should ask for that wonderful old strap!


----------



## jules2.1

schnurrp said:


> Hmm, that seller is usually very reliable but I wouldn't be buying that one without some explanation. Printing is very bad. A quick look at other offerings didn't find a reasonably-priced example with the classic dial/hands. Must be a lull because these are usually fairly available at a reasonable price. Just have to be patient and keep looking, I guess.





mroatman said:


> That is odd. No seller is perfect, I suppose, but I'm honestly surprised.
> 
> Here's a nice NOS example with original paperwork if don't mind gold:


Thanks a lot guys for your help. I'll be on the lookout


----------



## John Henry Belville

I bought this one about 9 months ago on a whim, from an ebay seller in uzbekistan. I had the attitude at the time that at $28 including shipping, it was so cheap I didn't care how authentic it was. Now I'm curious, though.


----------



## NuttySlack

How about this 3133 on ebay. I didn't know the Sturmanskies came in this sort of case

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OROLOGIO...BIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649#viTabs_0


----------



## Victorv

John Henry Belville said:


> View attachment 12869999
> 
> 
> I bought this one about 9 months ago on a whim, from an ebay seller in uzbekistan. I had the attitude at the time that at $28 including shipping, it was so cheap I didn't care how authentic it was. Now I'm curious, though.


Looks good to me comrade

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Looks like the bezel is for an amphibian on that tank komandirskie.


----------



## OrangeOrange

Trying to buy this clock. Also, any idea when this was made? Thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

OrangeOrange said:


> Trying to buy this clock. Also, any idea when this was made? Thanks.


From 1991 catalog:


----------



## schnurrp

NuttySlack said:


> How about this 3133 on ebay. I didn't know the Sturmanskies came in this sort of case
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OROLOGIO...BIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649#viTabs_0


This is a civil version in a round chrome-plated brass case which was available on the open market. While the stainless steel military pilots' version had the hacking 31659 movement, that one had a 3133.


----------



## NuttySlack

schnurrp said:


> This is a civil version in a round chrome-plated brass case which was available on the open market. While the stainless steel military pilots' version had the hacking 31659 movement, that one had a 3133.


Thanks - so it's not a franken. I have not seen one like it in a catalogue.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

NuttySlack said:


> Thanks - so it's not a franken. I have not seen one like it in a catalogue.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


I think this is it in the 2002 catalog. Lots of example seen over the years.


----------



## NuttySlack

schnurrp said:


> I think this is it in the 2002 catalog. Lots of example seen over the years.


Thanks again! I haven't seen a catalogue later than 1994

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## kev80e

A couple I'm considering for my next purchase. The first I think is correct.
View attachment 12878403
View attachment 12878405


This one I think should have a silver seconds hand?
View attachment 12878407
View attachment 12878409


Thanks for any help you can offer


----------



## Bostok

kev80e said:


> A couple I'm considering for my next purchase. The first I think is correct.
> View attachment 12878403
> 
> 
> This one I think should have a silver seconds hand?
> View attachment 12878407
> View attachment 12878409
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help you can offer


Indeed the second hand is wrong, as far as I know it should rather have golden hands (? as pictured but bad quality/colour photo? or really silver? ) with red arrow tip to the seconds one. Something like this:







Also, magnifer on the original crystal.

I don't know much about that raketa but it looks very, vert nice.


----------



## kev80e

Bostok said:


> Indeed the second hand is wrong, as far as I know it should rather have golden hands (? as pictured but bad quality/colour photo? or really silver? ) with red arrow tip to the seconds one. Something like this:
> View attachment 12878461
> 
> Also, magnifer on the original crystal.
> 
> I don't know much about that raketa but it looks very, vert nice.


 I thought maybe silver hands as the indices look silver. But yeah the seconds hand is definitely wrong . Thanks very much Bostok.


----------



## XsiOn

kev80e said:


> I thought maybe silver hands as the indices look silver. But yeah the seconds hand is definitely wrong . Thanks very much Bostok.


I think hands still should be gold. And the movement should be 17 jewels.


----------



## kev80e

XsiOn said:


> I think hands still should be gold. And the movement should be 17 jewels.


Thanks a lot. I will pass on it then. At least it's 1 less to choose from.


----------



## Bostok

I'm almost certain that there are valid examples with 16 jewels movement, but otherwise you're right and my guess it's the photo that is midleading, the indices and hands are the usual gold with a bad seconds hand and replaced crystal (as usual also).


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi all, I do have an old blue Scuba Dude in neptune case (9370 I believe)--sorry no pic with me for now. The bracelet is a Poljot one, otherwise the radial brushed case, CCCP marked dial and bakelite bezel seem OK and consistent. The hands have been replaced and are probably modern, with nickel hour and minute hands. I can do with that, but the question mark is that the second hand is a red one. Has there been any original model with a red second hand, or should it be nickel as well?


----------



## Neruda

This is from the 1990 Vostok Catalogue - nickel does seem to be correct:


----------



## bpmurray

Any Polish watch experts out there today? I think the hands are wrong, but what about the case and dial?


----------



## Kye752

What do you think is this legit or a franken?


----------



## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> This is from the 1990 Vostok Catalogue - nickel does seem to be correct:
> 
> View attachment 12880047


While I like to collect watches which exactly match pictures in a catalog, I believe there are many out there which are authentic even though a detail is different. I think that is the case with this one. I have seen too many nice examples with the red second hand to conclude that this detail, readily available from the Chistopol factory, was not installed on some, just never made it into a catalog.

On this one of mine the overall wear and lume color matches. I'd be surprised if it is a replacement second hand.


----------



## schnurrp

That 2605 has possibilities. Hands and hour lume dots don't match but that could be from differential aging, second hand is broken off, and no picture of movement. That's what I think are the weaknesses when I look at that one.


----------



## Rimmed762

That 2605 looks just like mine before reluming. Even the crown.

But I can't make certain of originality.

I am pretty sure about movement originality because most 2605s I've seen were Vostoks.


----------



## Kye752

schnurrp said:


> That 2605 has possibilities. Hands and hour lume dots don't match but that could be from differential aging, second hand is broken off, and no picture of movement. That's what I think are the weaknesses when I look at that one.


Its up for $15 i might take it in as a project little cheap watches like this are how i hope to learn to do a lot of what you guys do

Thank you for looking at it schnurrp


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> Its up for $15 i might take it in as a project little cheap watches like this are how i hope to learn to do a lot of what you guys do
> 
> Thank you for looking at it schnurrp


Worth buying if the movement is correct. Probably should have the "B" logo 2605 movement.

From '70 catalog:


----------



## Kye752

schnurrp said:


> Worth buying if the movement is correct. Probably should have the "B" logo 2605 movement.
> 
> From '70 catalog:


Hopefully the rest of its correct and with the lume dots and hands i was wondering ( i have no experience with it as i havent seen any of my watches yet) the hands are windowed as in if the loom is knocked out there is a space straight through the hand. Where as the dots are up against the dial after ageing would they be different colours because of the how they are situated (one against a background and the other with nothing directly behind it) would that account for a difference in colour or is that unlikely?


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> Hopefully the rest of its correct and with the lume dots and hands i was wondering ( i have no experience with it as i havent seen any of my watches yet) the hands are windowed as in if the loom is knocked out there is a space straight through the hand. Where as the dots are up against the dial after ageing would they be different colours because of the how they are situated (one against a background and the other with nothing directly behind it) would that account for a difference in colour or is that unlikely?


yes, that could explain it.


----------



## Bolum

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Privet!







Is this dial in this vintage Amphibia 2209 in too good shape to be original?


----------



## dutchassasin

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Bolum said:


> Privet!
> Is this dial in this vintage Amphibia 2209 in too good shape to be original?


Dial is a fake


----------



## Bolum

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



dutchassasin said:


> Dial is a fake


Thanks, that's what I thought. What's f10's stand on the eBay seller asap31? He/she seems to have a lot of fishy looking stuff.

Btw I'm waiting for this 2209 I got 2 days ago on an eBay auction, it's not in the best shape but the price was very good. 
I should have asked before, but it's not a franken, right? Everything looked legit to me.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Bolum said:


> What's f10's stand on the eBay seller asap31? He/she seems to have a lot of fishy looking stuff.


While some have had OK experiences, I would not recommend this seller to anyone.



Bolum said:


> Btw I'm waiting for this 2209 I got 2 days ago on an eBay auction, it's not in the best shape but the price was very good.
> I should have asked before, but it's not a franken, right? Everything looked legit to me.


Looks original to me ?


----------



## S.H.

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Bolum said:


> What's f10's stand on the eBay seller asap31? He/she seems to have a lot of fishy looking stuff.


My personal experience: I buy sometimes from him parts or Amphibians. You have to do your homework: some watches are legit , some are frankens and advertised as such, some are frankens and he says nothing. He does not usually combine shipping. Service is usually needed. If you are a beginner and not prepared to work on your watches, beware.


----------



## WZOLL

Today I had the pleasure of picking up one of my grails - a rare chrome cased cyrillic-logo Poljot de luxe 2209 that I would imagine some other forum members were bidding on. The crown looks right to me (if sticking out a little) and although there isn't a side view, the crystal looks original judging by the lack of distortion of the "CCCP" at the bottom of the dial. I'm certain the hands are replaced however as they are not the right length compared to other examples. Although they look fine, is there a common(cheap) 2209 model that has hands identical to the de luxe that can be used for the semi-sacrilegious process of defrakenization? Thanks in advance!
View attachment 12888429
View attachment 12888431


----------



## mroatman

WZOLL said:


> Today I had the pleasure of picking up one of my grails - a rare chrome cased cyrillic-logo Poljot de luxe 2209 that I would imagine some other forum members were bidding on. The crown looks right to me (if sticking out a little) and although there isn't a side view, the crystal looks original judging by the lack of distortion of the "CCCP" at the bottom of the dial. I'm certain the hands are replaced however as they are not the right length compared to other examples. Although they look fine, is there a common(cheap) 2209 model that has hands identical to the de luxe that can be used for the semi-sacrilegious process of defrakenization? Thanks in advance!
> View attachment 12888429
> View attachment 12888431


Your attachments are broken, comrade, but I'm assuming it's the same watch you posted about here.

In that case, I'd say the dial and movement are original, while the case/caseback/crown/hands came from a 1980s Luch.

If you wanted to completely de-franken-ify, you'll likely need another early Poljot 2209 to scavenge for parts. This will give you the correct 20µm gold-plated case with rounded lugs, gild hand set, small acorn crown, and radially-brushed caseback.

Personally, I like the way it looks now, however blasphemous that may be.


----------



## WZOLL

I agree. I prefer the chrome to the gold. I actually thought it was genuine because of the one on your website but I guess you can't believe everything you see on the internet lol. The hands look similar enough and it doesn't feel right to scavenge a nice early poljot.


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

What do we think Comrades? Not seen this hand/dial combo before


----------



## schnurrp

Two things would make me suspicious of that sportivnie, the second hand that doesn't reach all the way to the minute marks and lumed hands with an un-lumed dial. 

Also I would expect the movement to be held in place with a sheet metal movement holder and the back to be a one-part screw-in as pictured below. That one appears to be made to use a two part back.


----------



## mroatman

jamesnorrisuk said:


> What do we think Comrades? Not seen this hand/dial combo before


I agree with schnurrp, this watch is a franken. Hands from Moskva, case from Petrodvorets, Sportivnie dial and movement.

This watch was originally found in several configurations, including both Sportivnie case styles. But the one you've shown is not correct, in my opinion.

View attachment collage.jpg


----------



## mroatman

WZOLL said:


> I actually thought it was genuine because of the one on your website but I guess you can't believe everything you see on the internet lol.


I used to try and note every flaw on every watch, but it is a futile effort (so much still unknown) and had the negative effect of tacitly implying that everything _not_ commented on was 100% authentic. Which is just not true.

So now, I just hope visitors understand that my colleciton, like all others, is imperfect.

Sorry for misleading! Still a great watch


----------



## Uros TSI

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

While I do not doubt that the watch I just acquired is legit, I would like to know more about it, possibly some catalog validation or model number. I find that this model with Cyrillic branding is the most rarely occurring.

Also, where could I find part numbers for crystals since the seller I got this watch from has a bunch of NOS Soviet era acrylic glasses, but he does not want to dig for it. I want to make it easier for him since I think that possibly many of us would like to get something for themselves. I will ask him to get me some pictures.

Thanks,

Uroš









Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## OrangeOrange

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Uros TSI said:


> While I do not doubt that the watch I just acquired is legit, I would like to know more about it, possibly some catalog validation or model number. I find that this model with Cyrillic branding is the most rarely occurring.
> 
> Also, where could I find part numbers for crystals since the seller I got this watch from has a bunch of NOS Soviet era acrylic glasses, but he does not want to dig for it. I want to make it easier for him since I think that possibly many of us would like to get something for themselves. I will ask him to get me some pictures.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Uroš
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


It seems strange to me that the Cyrillic dial is mixed with a Latin chapter ring.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



OrangeOrange said:


> It seems strange to me that the Cyrillic dial is mixed with a Latin chapter ring.


Yes, I agree, a sure sign of something being replaced.



Uros TSI said:


> While I do not doubt that the watch I just acquired is legit, I would like to know more about it, possibly some catalog validation or model number.


I haven't seen a catalog reference to this model, but I'd also be interested.


----------



## Neruda

In passing, I see Sekondtime has an all Cyrillic version in his collection https://sekondtime.wordpress.com/watch-brands/slava-%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0-2nd-moscow-watch-factory-2%D0%BC%D1%87%D0%B7/#jp-carousel-1469


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

mroatman said:


> I agree with schnurrp, this watch is a franken. Hands from Moskva, case from Petrodvorets, Sportivnie dial and movement.
> 
> This watch was originally found in several configurations, including both Sportivnie case styles. But the one you've shown is not correct, in my opinion.
> 
> View attachment 12891769


Thanks both, was thinking the same so nice to be validated. The genuine versions look much nicer anyway.

Interestingly, this was from the same seller as the Antimagnetic I picked up, a chap in Uzbekistan...


----------



## mroatman

OrangeOrange said:


> It seems strange to me that the Cyrillic dial is mixed with a Latin chapter ring.





Neruda said:


> In passing, I see Sekondtime has an all Cyrillic version in his collection https://sekondtime.wordpress.com/watch-brands/slava-%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0-2nd-moscow-watch-factory-2%D0%BC%D1%87%D0%B7/#jp-carousel-1469


Definitely should be all Cyrillic, in my opinion. Two more examples:

View attachment collage.jpg


----------



## schnurrp

Slava not in catalogs but there are a number for sale on ebay including this one that is priced low enough with a decent offer to serve as a parts watch for crystal and Cyrillic part of dial: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-RU...612079&hash=item2a9df00bf0:g:WEsAAOSwSdZaQq1G.


----------



## Kieranz

*Authenticity / Franken check*

Hi everyone I need everyone's expert eyes. Is this the real deal or another franken . To be honest almost everything I look at seems to be a bit off on eBay.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/302632215535


----------



## bpmurray

*Re: Authenticity / Franken check*

Looks fine to me. Do you have any specific concerns about it?

That seller is pretty well known too; I've bought from him and find him trustworthy.

Here is the catalog page:


----------



## Kieranz

It was the variety of shapes of the hands that worried me, but that is part of its charm.


----------



## bpmurray

*Re: Authenticity / Franken check*



Kieranz said:


> It was the variety of shapes of the hands that worried me, but that is part of its charm.


They are definitely unique. But they seem correct -- hour and minute are maple-leaf shaped, and alarm hand is the straight arrow terminating on the index. Even the crowns look original on this one, which can be quite rare.

Good luck!


----------



## Sekondtime

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mroatman said:


> Yes, I agree, a sure sign of something being replaced.
> 
> I haven't seen a catalog reference to this model, but I'd also be interested.


This Slava is in the 1987 catalogue. There are two examples. Unfortunately, the scans from the catalogue are not high resolution and so it is impossible to see if the dial and chapter ring in the catalogue example match with cyrillic script/latin script.


----------



## hseldon

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Sekondtime said:


> This Slava is in the 1987 catalogue. There are two examples. Unfortunately, the scans from the catalogue are not high resolution and so it is impossible to see if the dial and chapter ring in the catalogue example match with cyrillic script/latin script.
> 
> View attachment 12898257


I have never seen this Slava for sale with Cyrillic dial and English chapter ring. Mine is all Cyrillic. Could be an aftermarket replacement, which I would say is most likely, but you never know in this game. It could have been a mistake at the factory.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Sekondtime said:


> This Slava is in the 1987 catalogue. There are two examples. Unfortunately, the scans from the catalogue are not high resolution and so it is impossible to see if the dial and chapter ring in the catalogue example match with cyrillic script/latin script.


Thanks for the catalog excerpt! Never seen that one.


----------



## Kamburov

Hi to all members, this is my first post on the forum (technicly my second, did something wrong with the first one). Found it recently and it's been quite a read, took me a couple of days to go through 400 something pages. Went through the catalogues (I've been looking out for those for ages), that took me another day or two. It's been an eye opener for a lot of subjects, and answered a lot of questions. Found a few glitches in my own collection that need to be sorted. I've been having soviet watches arround me since communist times (back then they were all we had), but here is the first place I managed to find detailed knowledge and info. Now I look at the same watches in a different way, with more attention and appreciation for the detail. I already had quite a few ongoing restoration projects (waiting months and years for a crown, dial, wheel or hands set), now they appear to be even more. So in my first post I would like to thank all of you for the interesting read, and also the people who took the time to collect, scan and upload catalogues and brochures. I salute you!


----------



## pjd

Does this look genuine?
I thought these had steel cases, but there is some evidence of yellow metal coming through in places.

Secondly, the calender wheel, the numbers look a little blurry..

I normally only buy mechanical, but I really like this design. 
Other than that, is there anything else to watch out for on this model?


----------



## pjd

View attachment 12908265

Does this look genuine?
I thought these had steel cases, but there is some evidence of yellow metal coming through in places.

Secondly, the calender wheel, the numbers look a little blurry..

I normally only buy mechanical, but I really like this design. 
Other than that, is there anything else to watch out for on this model?


----------



## schnurrp

I've never seen that Luch before but if you like that design and would prefer mechanical why not get a Raketa Perpetual Calendar watch: https://www.google.com/search?q=rak...urDZAhVp8IMKHdVZDYcQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=982.


----------



## dutchassasin

I have a luch just like that, quite a cool watch. My calendar wheel is very crisp and clear. it could be the photo distorting the image a little bit.


----------



## pjd

schnurrp said:


> I've never seen that Luch before but if you like that design and would prefer mechanical why not get a Raketa Perpetual Calendar watch: https://www.google.com/search?q=rak...urDZAhVp8IMKHdVZDYcQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=982.


I already have three Raketa'. Blue, red and green. 
In fact, I've been wearing the green one this last week.



dutchassasin said:


> I have a luch just like that, quite a cool watch. My calendar wheel is very crisp and clear. it could be the photo distorting the image a little bit.


I do wonder if it's just the photo. It's not especially cheap though.. Is there anywhere on the wheel where all the text is red? Every other photo I've seen is red and black. 
Really love the look of it though.... 
Decisions decisions....


----------



## dutchassasin

definitely plated case, i currently don't have access to my watches so i cant check my calendar wheel.

here is another "red" https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/thank-you-dedatos-chascomm-help-my-luch-282688.html

what kind of money are we talking about?, they can often be found quite cheaply.


----------



## pjd

dutchassasin said:


> definitely plated case, i currently don't have access to my watches so i cant check my calendar wheel.
> 
> here is another "red" https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/thank-you-dedatos-chascomm-help-my-luch-282688.html
> 
> what kind of money are we talking about?, they can often be found quite cheaply.


It's about 90 euros. 
I've seen them much cheaper, but obviously been re-lumed or had different crowns fitted.

I checked the thread, but it looks like it's succumbed to photobucket.


----------



## dutchassasin

pjd said:


> It's about 90 euros.
> I've seen them much cheaper, but obviously been re-lumed or had different crowns fitted.
> 
> I checked the thread, but it looks like it's succumbed to photobucket.


Quite a though price, perhaps with some patience you can find a better deal. 
I don't know what browser you use but there are add-ons for fixing that issue. Its called "photobucket embed fix" or "photobucket embedded image fix".


----------



## pjd

dutchassasin said:


> Quite a though price, perhaps with some patience you can find a better deal.
> I don't know what browser you use but there are add-ons for fixing that issue. Its called "photobucket embed fix" or "photobucket embedded image fix".


Yes, it is expensive, I think maybe I will hold off. I'm not sure about that date wheel. It just looks off.
I'm running out of larger Russian watch options to buy!

The photobucket thing sounds interesting. I will look that up.
I can't even get into my old photobucket account anymore. My virus software goes into meltdown.


----------



## dutchassasin

pjd said:


> Yes, it is expensive, I think maybe I will hold off. I'm not sure about that date wheel. It just looks off.
> I'm running out of larger Russian watch options to buy!
> 
> The photobucket thing sounds interesting. I will look that up.
> I can't even get into my old photobucket account anymore. My virus software goes into meltdown.


Photobucket is a lost cause, the have your pictures randsom. but the add-on repairs so that you can view it on forums.


----------



## Kamburov

Bought this a year ago as a non working. Last week, while on the Vostok subject, I decided to get inside for the fun of it. Was not familiar with the movement, but the mechanics of the seconds hacking was pretty obvious - a lever on a spring acts as a break on the balance wheel when the crown is pulled out. When its pushed back in it is supposed to let it free, only this one wasn't due to dirt or deformation. A gentle stroking on the brake lever with a needle fixed it and it's working as new. So I went through the russian catalogues and found two models - red dial with golden hands in a golden case, and dark blue dial with chrome hands in a chrome case. My question is - is this combination legit? Crown seems to be matching the case, but both in condition too good compared to the dial and hands inside.


----------



## schnurrp

The dial and hands go together, in my opinion (second picture is of Michele's example)

I think that case, flat ministry with clipped corners and tooled surface, may not be legit. There is the different Chistopol dirskie dial shown in a catalog "setting" (first picture) with a case that appears to have clipped corners but picture is not clear enough to discern tooling.

A good running 2209 is hard to beat, literally. My yard work watch is an old type 119 amphibian that has taken an amazing beating and still works great.


----------



## Sansoni7

Hi
Any informations about «this » watch will be appreciated.
Thank you.


----------



## bpmurray

Sansoni7 said:


> Hi
> Any informations about «this » watch will be appreciated.
> Thank you.


You've got yourself a Sportivne. Looks like a replacement crown (hard to tell from the angle of the photos), but everything else looks good. This watch should be 33mm in diameter, with 16mm lug width -- same case as the 17 jewel Sturmanskie's. Depending on your wrist size, you may want to consider a bund strap, in my opinion, this is juuuuuuuust at the lower limit of wearable as-is given current styles.

Here is the reference from the 1957 catalog:


----------



## Sansoni7

Thank you very much.


----------



## schnurrp

Not the same case as the sturmanskie, comrades, this one is smaller and has a two-piece back; sturmanskie has one-piece back and sheet metal movement holder and is a millimeter larger.

My "swimmer" version:


----------



## Kamburov

Thanks, schnurrp, that is an interesting photo of 1983 komandirskie, and it does appear to have the clipped corners case. Thanks for digging it out. So it's either that, or someone has taken the guts out of this









and has put it into a body like this









Anyway, it's working fine and I will leave it around as a sample for future references. Agree on the 2209, the little buggers are immortal. I have 3 or 4 in plastic bags and if I happen to pick them up they start ticking like little dogs wiggling their tails.


----------



## schnurrp

Glad to hear you were able to fix the hacking mechanism, good job. The mechanism is very similar in the two hacking movements we are most familiar with. The levers are spring loaded and "stop" is the default position. Crown must be pushed in to contact the lever and swing the stopper away from the balance wheel.

An old investigation.


----------



## Kamburov

Thanks, good photos in the sudy! It seems there are no fundamental differences in both movements. That's what I like about russian functional design, it's straight forward and has certain DIY qualities. A pair of spanners plus some wire from the fence and it's good to go. This hacking lever was one of the rare moments when I fixed one thing without breaking ten other things


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> This hacking lever was one of the rare moments when I fixed one thing without breaking ten other things


I know what you're talking about, comrade.


----------



## pjd

This has to be too good to be true, right?!
If the general consensus is its good, I will buy it...


----------



## schnurrp

That appears to be a ZIM from the '80s and they are not that rare in such nice condition. Worth having at the right price but I think they were considered to be on the low end of Russian watch market. 

After a short run of models made around 1970 with a ZIM trademarked 41-m central second hand (referred to as 2608 in 1970 catalog) they completely gave up on the central second hand design and produced only models with a very plain non-shockproof sub-dial second hand, 2602 movement and continued with that same design right on into the early '90s. Catalog pictures are very sparse.

Also, taking a quick look and relying on my experience, I don't believe I've ever seen a ZIM movement with more than 15 jewels, cap jewels anywhere else but the balance, a fully jeweled central wheel, or shockproofing. Any kind of water resistance is usually minimal.

That having been said, as long as you don't throw them down on a hard surface or submerge them regularly they can be reliable and accurate time keepers when clean and well-adjusted.


----------



## pjd

schnurrp said:


> That appears to be a ZIM from the '80s and they are not that rare in such nice condition. Worth having at the right price but I think they were considered to be on the low end of Russian watch market.
> 
> After a short run of models made around 1970 with a ZIM trademarked 41-m central second hand (referred to as 2608 in 1970 catalog) they completely gave up on the central second hand design and produced only models with a very plain non-shockproof sub-dial second hand, 2602 movement and continued with that same design right on into the early '90s. Catalog pictures are very sparse.
> 
> Also, taking a quick look and relying on my experience, I don't believe I've ever seen a ZIM movement with more than 15 jewels, cap jewels anywhere else but the balance, a fully jeweled central wheel, or shockproofing. Any kind of water resistance is usually minimal.
> 
> That having been said, as long as you don't throw them down on a hard surface or submerge them regularly they can be reliable and accurate time keepers when clean and well-adjusted.


Thank you for the information. 
I rather like it and don't have a Zim in my collection. I love the subdial second hand. 
Thanks to your positive feedback, I've bought it.... 
I guess it's a birthday treat. 
Now to look for a nice strap to go with it. ☺


----------



## Sansoni7

Tks *schnurrp
_________*
Hi again
Any informations about «this » watch will be appreciated.
Thank you.


----------



## bpmurray

Sansoni7 said:


> Tks *schnurrp
> _________*
> Hi again
> Any informations about «this » watch will be appreciated.
> Thank you.


Another Sportivne. Looks correct to me, although the crown is so worn, it is hard to discern the original shape. Here is the reference from the 1960 catalog (this one is the ЧН-628К -- differs from the 627 in that it has lumed numbers on the dial):









Rough google translate:

Design ChN-628K 
Chromed chrome-plated body with a diameter of 33 mm; The stainless steel cover is attached to the body by a threaded ring. Glass is an organic spherical shape. The dial black polished is lacquered with full digitization 1-12. The numbers are covered with light mass. A scale with sixty divisions, every fifth division is thickened. The dial and the inscriptions on the dial are white. The hour and minute hands are nickel-plated diamond, contour with light mass, the second is painted red.


----------



## Sansoni7

Thank you very much, bpmurray.


----------



## Kamburov

The things I find in my spare parts box, at 2 in the morning. Full case set for the komandirski (case wirh crown/remontoir, case back with o-ring) neatly packed in a plastic bag. Under my nose all this time.


----------



## Patatoo

So I posted this on the "What did you buy today" thread but figured it'd be more appropiate here. Long story short, got this Komandirskie 3AKA3 for relatively cheap suspecting it was a frankenwatch (haven't seen that dial and case combination) and here are the things I've found so far that make me think it's in fact a franken:

1.- The case seems to be from a Vostok gents watch from the 60s, all other 3AKA3 I've seen have the case with straight lugs.

2.- As Schnurrp pointed out, the seconds hand should be arrow-pointed. Also, the lume on mine doesn't look as thick as others.

3.- This model should have the 2234 movement with hacking, but I believe mine has a 2214 since it doesn't have hacking. Serial number seems to be 70668, if it's useful.

In addition, the case is around 33 or 34mm in diameter and caseback is the english engraved version (and has something scribbled on the inner side, see upper edge in last pic). What do you guys think? I'm kinda new to the watch collecting world and I know I still have a lot to learn but I'm not worried about making mistakes!









Enviado desde mi SM-G930F mediante Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

Patatoo said:


> So I posted this on the "What did you buy today" thread but figured it'd be more appropiate here. Long story short, got this Komandirskie 3AKA3 for relatively cheap suspecting it was a frankenwatch (haven't seen that dial and case combination) and here are the things I've found so far that make me think it's in fact a franken:
> 
> 1.- The case seems to be from a Vostok gents watch from the 60s, all other 3AKA3 I've seen have the case with straight lugs.
> 
> 2.- As Schnurrp pointed out, the seconds hand should be arrow-pointed. Also, the lume on mine doesn't look as thick as others.
> 
> 3.- This model should have the 2234 movement with hacking, but I believe mine has a 2214 since it doesn't have hacking. Serial number seems to be 70668, if it's useful.
> 
> In addition, the case is around 33 or 34mm in diameter and caseback is the english engraved version (and has something scribbled on the inner side, see upper edge in last pic). What do you guys think? I'm kinda new to the watch collecting world and I know I still have a lot to learn but I'm not worried about making mistakes!
> 
> Enviado desde mi SM-G930F mediante Tapatalk


Scan of the 1976 Vostok catalog.


----------



## Patatoo

mariomart said:


> Scan of the 1976 Vostok catalog.


Oh my god, thank you so much! The seconds hand should be arrow pointed though, but at least the rest matches. I've gotta start saving every bit of catalogs I come across, it comes really handy!


----------



## souriyan

Hello all,

First would like to say this is a great forum full of knowledge. Have spent couple days already searching on here. I'm a newbie in Seiko, Orient and now Russian watches. I have also 1-2 Swiss ones as it's the country where I was born. Always liked watches and now due to an accident I have time to "play" a little 

So, back to topic, is that a franken ?
































Would be interested in buying it, like the copernic hands. Looks like the back is from another watch. The dial ??


----------



## schnurrp

Forget it, comrade. One of the worst constructions to come around since I've been collecting. That hand set, which has become available somehow, is showing up all over the place when it should be found only on the Raketa Copernicus watch, one version pictured below. Do not buy this watch!

Raketa Copernicus:


----------



## souriyan

Oh well, will let it go then. Thanks a lot for the info. That authentic copernicus is wonderful.

I guess the blog in your signature is yours ? Impressive collection of Russian watches !

Cheers


----------



## schnurrp

souriyan said:


> Oh well, will let it go then. Thanks a lot for the info. That authentic copernicus is wonderful.
> 
> I guess the blog in your signature is yours ? Impressive collection of Russian watches !
> 
> Cheers


Thanks, comrade. I think I may have gone off on a rant, I'm sorry. But, when you have a unique and iconic soviet watch whose trademark hands suddenly begin appearing on other watches there is some justification for regret, I believe. Also, one must ask why, if you knew the hands were incorrect, did you post in a thread which deals mostly with authentication?

Put the money you would have spent on that franken aside and save toward an authentic Copernicus; there are many out there and we would be glad to help you choose an authentic one at a fair price.

Cheers, and welcome to the forum!


----------



## Pentona

I wonder what the logo on the back is. Also the bracelet has Cyrillic text unlike the dial, is that common?


----------



## dutchassasin

Pentona, as for the engraving its polish coal mine issue: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/russian-coal-mine-issue-watch-4507933.html


----------



## Kye752

I need help.
What is this?


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> I need help.
> What is this?
> View attachment 12920931
> View attachment 12920933
> View attachment 12920935


I don't collect lady's watches but this appears to be a solid gold ERA lady's watch from the Second Moscow (Slava) Watch Factory, circa mid '60s to mid '70s with 17 jewel 1600 movement, hour and minute only.

I hope the photo was taken with the crown left pulled out by mistake, otherwise something's not right with it.

Interesting dial and it appears to be in good condition. Got a lady friend that would wear a mechanical watch (if it's working well)?


----------



## Kye752

schnurrp said:


> I don't collect lady's watches but this appears to be a solid gold ERA lady's watch from the Second Moscow (Slava) Watch Factory, circa mid '60s to mid '70s with 17 jewel 1600 movement, hour and minute only.
> 
> I hope the photo was taken with the crown left pulled out by mistake, otherwise something's not right with it.
> 
> Interesting dial and it appears to be in good condition. Got a lady friend that would wear a mechanical watch (if it's working well)?


Umm i do but not for nearly $400 i was more interested in what it was as i couldnt find out anything about it

Once again thank you schnurrp youre a well of wisdom


----------



## schnurrp

Kye752 said:


> Umm i do but not for nearly $400 i was more interested in what it was as i couldnt find out anything about it
> 
> Once again thank you schnurrp youre a well of wisdom


Glad to help, comrade, I've learned something, too. Here's how I researched that watch using Google translate and searching "ERA soviet watch" images on the internet to find a similar dial. I did have enough knowledge to recognize the solid gold back which explains the high price being asked (too high?):


----------



## mariomart

Could someone please tell me what is written on the dial both up the top in the banner and the main writing down below? Thank you in advance.


----------



## Neruda

Not very precise, but I think the top lettering is "Guard" and beneath "Guardskie".

These are elite military units originally formed by Stalin towards the end of the Second World War. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guards_unit


----------



## mariomart

Thank you Neruda, very appreciated


----------



## kev80e

What do you make of this guy's. Faded dial? With a black seconds hand which I have seen somewhere but can't remember where. Thanks for any opinions or thoughts.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> What do you make of this guy's. Faded dial? With a black seconds hand which I have seen somewhere but can't remember where. Thanks for any opinions or thoughts.
> View attachment 12927181
> View attachment 12927189
> View attachment 12927193


I've never seen that combination with that color dial before. The lume appears to be authentic except for the color and it's hard to believe the light blue has faded completely to white. The replacement bezel is sowing some doubt in my mind. I'd be mildly interested at a low price if the dial was in better condition.


----------



## Straight_time

The dial might be heavily faded (there's another example for sale on a Russian site which more or less has the same colors) but this watch is a franken, IMHO.

Firstly because, according to 2 different catalogs, this model should have the black bezel and not the standard Amphibia one; secondly because, as noted here, I would expect a 1990/91 watch to have plain movement and numbered caseback, not the other way 'round...


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> The dial might be heavily faded (there's another example for sale on a Russian site which more or less has the same colors) but this watch is a franken, IMHO.
> 
> Firstly because, according to 2 different catalogs, this model should have the black bezel and not the standard Amphibia one; secondly because, as noted here, I would expect a 1990/91 watch to have plain movement and numbered caseback, not the other way 'round...


I think you're right, comrade, and I agree with you except I differ a little on the bezel. That "dot-dash" one should never be on the type 320/470 amphibian even though it has a lume dot, it's too new. I would be interested if everything else was correct and the bezel was like the one, below. and, of course, black would be nice.


----------



## Neruda

Another minor detail which makes me think the banana is a franken is the combination of caseback and movement - Vostok casebacks with the CCCP quality control symbol seem to be current 1980 to approx 1985, and they usually appear on watches where the movement is marked SU. My feeling here is that the movement dates to the end of the 70s.


----------



## kev80e

Thanks for all the answers. Totally agree that the movement and bezel are wrong but it was the dial that interested me. Like Schnurrp I can't believe it faded completely but who knows . The middle also when placed next to a banana one appears more orange. It does seem to be a genuine dial though . I'm not willing to £30 plus postage for it but interesting .


----------



## pjd

Having seen another forum member wearing one of these in the "what are you wearing" thread, I decided I needed one......
Does anyone have an opinion on this!? I love the look... I wish there was a reissue.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-Col...871579?hash=item5d7ad7099b:g:ynkAAOSw8i9agzbc

I noticed the crown doesn't sit flush and I've seen some with "decorated" case backs.


----------



## Neruda

I suspect the movement is post-Soviet from the latter 1990s - the dimple on the ratchet wheel seems to date from this period. Another feature of several apparently original movements which I've seen for this model is a "V" stamped on the back.

This is the movement from another currently for sale on Ebay:


----------



## pjd

Neruda said:


> I suspect the movement is post-Soviet from the latter 1990s - the dimple on the ratchet wheel seems to date from this period. Another feature of several apparently original movements which I've seen for this model is a "V" stamped on the back.
> 
> This is the movement from another currently for sale on Ebay:
> 
> View attachment 12936821


Thank you. 
So it seems at least the movement has been swapped. Or, its had a USSR dial fitted. 
I think I will pass on it in that case.


----------



## haha

Hello all,
Can someone please tell me what he thinks of this almost too good to be true Poljot ?


----------



## skipvel

First post here. Just wondering about the authenticity about this watch. Big-Alarm-AVIATOR-POLJOT-2612-Polet-Laco-Wrist-Watch-in-BOX-with-certificate-SKU175923. Have to google, can't post link.(ussrwatch) I've seen a bunch of these around with slight variations, the word alarm below the center etc; but they all seem to be in too good condition(and too reasonable) to be from early 90's as is claimed by some sellers.


----------



## Neruda

Skipvel - my feeling is that this is a modern assembly with some parts (such as the movement) which are genuine and other parts which may be comparatively modern and not necessarily even Russian.

Poljot seem to have stopped producing watches in about 2007. They had already sold some of their production equipment by 2005 when Maktime bought the machinery for 3133 chronographs. I think at about this time Vostok bought the machinery for these alarm watches. The version you are considering is marked on the movement "SU" so not manufactured later than about 1995, but I think the caseback is more likely to be post 2000 if not totally modern - perhaps Poljot had a substantial back stock of these movements?

There are quite a number of sellers of "modern" Poljots, some of whom are quite well considered - for some reason they have avoided the reputation of "franken-meisters". However, at the end of the day these watches are not really 100% genuine Poljots from the factory.


----------



## Kamburov

haha said:


> Hello all,
> Can someone please tell me what he thinks of this almost too good to be true Poljot ?
> View attachment 12937707


This is an excellent watch, and in this condition is probably very desired. I've seen the model also branded as VIMPEL, which would date it to the 60's. Should have an yellow 23 jewels movement inside. Very elegant watch. If I was into dress watches, I would deffinately get one at the right price.


----------



## pjd

What do you think?


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> This is an excellent watch, and in this condition is probably very desired. I've seen the model also branded as VIMPEL, which would date it to the 60's. Should have an yellow 23 jewels movement inside. Very elegant watch. If I was into dress watches, I would deffinately get one at the right price.


Oops!


----------



## schnurrp

haha said:


> Hello all,
> Can someone please tell me what he thinks of this almost too good to be true Poljot ?
> View attachment 12937707


Looks to be in nice condition from that single picture. Unfortunately, the dial is pictured in a 1966 catalog and four times in a 1970 catalog with baton hands instead of the skinny triangles. I have a feeling it may be an authentic variation. More pictures of the rest of the watch and movement would help authenticate it since if all other parts are authentic it's unlikely the hands were replaced.


----------



## schnurrp

pjd said:


> View attachment 12939305
> View attachment 12939315
> View attachment 12939305
> 
> What do you think?


Legit.


----------



## pjd

schnurrp said:


> Legit.


Thanks for that. 
I've made an offer.


----------



## Kamburov

Yes, you are right, baton hands, on the vimpels too. I've seen those pointy hands on a few de luxe models and took it for granted that this combination is possible.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Yes, you are right, baton hands, on the vimpels too. I've seen those pointy hands on a few de luxe models and took it for granted that this combination is possible.
> View attachment 12939637


As I said before, if the rest of the watch is authentic and in similar condition why would the hands have been changed? Hard to tell with just that one picture.


----------



## shahrincamille

schnurrp said:


> As I said before, if the rest of the watch is authentic and in similar condition why would the hands have been changed? Hard to tell with just that one picture.


Perhaps the hands ARE genuine, after all? 

Shahrinb-)


----------



## haha

Thank you all for your opinion on this watch. 
apart from its perfect condition, the fact that all the pictures were made from an angle with the dial never seen directly had also made me suspicious. 
You reassured me but I had to let go anyway since it was sold for a much higher price than i would have imagined (and paid).
Best luck next time


----------



## Chascomm

skipvel said:


> First post here. Just wondering about the authenticity about this watch. Big-Alarm-AVIATOR-POLJOT-2612-Polet-Laco-Wrist-Watch-in-BOX-with-certificate-SKU175923. Have to google, can't post link.(ussrwatch) I've seen a bunch of these around with slight variations, the word alarm below the center etc; but they all seem to be in too good condition(and too reasonable) to be from early 90's as is claimed by some sellers.


The case, case back and hands all match the Poljot Russian Aviator Kozakov Alarm model from the early 2000s, but the dial is a generic B-uhr style with hour ring that does not line up with the length of the hands, and the coloured second hand has been repainted white. That's how it looks to me anyway.


----------



## Kamburov

haha, if you didn't get it, then it could have been a well done franken  you saved yourself some money for a watch with proven authenticity. And as schnurrp kindly reminded us, one picture doesn't say much. A genuine seller should provide photos of at least the movement and the case back.
In my first post about it I spoke too soon, which was stupid of me, as my comment could have inclined you to spend money on a franken watch. And this thread is "is this watch legit...", not "does this watch look nice...". So I was wrong there, ooops indeed.
The mystery remains, but the reality is that this model is always with baton hands, in catalogues and reference sites and what I've seen. If there is or are genuine models like this, then proof and pictures remain to be seen. And even if the rest of the watch is genuine, the hands still could have been replaced for reasons unknown. As to why, possible answer is - to sell it. Not all sellers are watch enthusiasts.
So in my mind a watch is franken untill proven otherwise, not the other way round.


----------



## haha

Kamburov, you're right, it will remain a mystery, but i agree with your rules of caution, even though we have so little documentation from the soviet period that's it's hard to decide for sure what's legit or not. In the meantime, i will continue to enjoy the Vympel and the few De Luxe that i already own


----------



## souriyan

Hello,

Guess it's a franken... Nothing looks to be original. Tried to find it on some catalogues to no avail. The case is weird, the crown looks too big for the case, the mouvement has no inscription... Well, guess not worth 100$.
























But what are the 3 "roofs" for ? As the inscription PYCB ? For Russia ?

Thanks in advance for any answers, cheers (euh... Spaciba... Nazdrovia!)


----------



## schnurrp

haha said:


> Kamburov, you're right, it will remain a mystery, but i agree with your rules of caution, even though we have so little documentation from the soviet period that's it's hard to decide for sure what's legit or not. In the meantime, i will continue to enjoy the Vympel and the few De Luxe that i already own


I think this is the best way to go.

Despite the fact that there are many questionable examples out there that may or may not be authentic, there are also many which can be almost completely authenticated using catalog evidence and existence in other respected collections. Why not collect those?


----------



## schnurrp

souriyan said:


> Hello,
> 
> Guess it's a franken... Nothing looks to be original. Tried to find it on some catalogues to no avail. The case is weird, the crown looks too big for the case, the mouvement has no inscription... Well, guess not worth 100$.
> View attachment 12941089
> 
> 
> View attachment 12941093
> 
> 
> View attachment 12941095
> 
> 
> But what are the 3 "roofs" for ? As the inscription PYCB ? For Russia ?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any answers, cheers (euh... Spaciba... Nazdrovia!)


Probably authentic, a version of the cadet pictured below in a case like the second picture.

Religious theme, probably Russian orthodox going by the crosses. Word is "Russia", I believe.

You could do better with $100 to spend, that's for sure.


----------



## souriyan

Thanks for the quick answer... Yeah, had seen that one in the 1993 catalogue, N°059650. But then thought all was franken as the dial and case look so different. Well anyway, I like it's design and got it for just a little over $40.- so franken or not I'm happy.

I did like the 3 "domes" and the global look of it. Wearing it with a colored NATO will be just fine for a casual every day easy watch (when not wearing the others )

Still welcome for some more info on the cupolas 

Good evening (Haaroschy veetcher ?!?!?)


----------



## Neruda

Souriyan - I can't find the reference right now, but I believe Vostok took out a registered trade mark for the "Russia" logo on your watch. I don't know exactly what this implies, but to me this suggests it was intended as a brand rather than merely a design. The onion domes may also connect it to casebacks and labelling used in the late 1980s and early 90s on export models to Italy and the USA.

I fully agree with Schnurrp that it is most probably authentic. Nice find!


----------



## Kamburov

Had two of those Vostoks in my pessession at different times, 2-3 years apart. The word is indeed RUSS, which may refer to Kievan Russ and/or times that cristianity (ortodox) was introduced to the russ peoples. I'm speculating here, a russian here will be more knowledgeable of the history of that region. Anyway, both of those were this dial/case/hands/combo and made in ussr at the bottom. One was chromed case, the other with golden like plating and chrome plated besel area and crown. Almost identical. Both were without second hands, so don't know obout that, but the red one doesn't seem right to me. 
So my suspicion is that this animal exist and should be a source somewhere that will tell us the exact specs of it. Oh, and both were 2414A SU movements.


----------



## Kamburov

There is one of mine with 2414A SU inside. Sorry for the bad photo.


----------



## Kamburov

I need your help with this one. I have a thing for old watch logotypes, and this one cought my eye, as it's very cheap (for repairs) and is perfect for my next restoration project. I really like the rocket logo, but can't find info on that model. There's a working one on the Bay, and it has the same hands, but the price is its weight in gold, so its out of the question.
Any info will be much appreciated!


----------



## skipvel

Thanks to Neruda and Chascomm for their advice. Read though 122 pages of 'Franken of the week' last night(phew) and did see a couple of watches with the same kind of dial. So many true variants and also outright fakes and frauds. These are not generally high price watches; hate to think what fakes there are in the Rolex and Omega categories where there is serious money involved.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> I need your help with this one. I have a thing for old watch logotypes, and this one cought my eye, as it's very cheap (for repairs) and is perfect for my next restoration project. I really like the rocket logo, but can't find info on that model. There's a working one on the Bay, and it has the same hands, but the price is its weight in gold, so its out of the question.
> Any info will be much appreciated!
> View attachment 12941695
> 
> View attachment 12941697


Look here:Redials / Frankens, I agree with comrade mroatman.


----------



## Kamburov

Thanks, schnurrp, that was very interesting. While going through the page with the counterfeit reprints I noticed this 








and then going through my stash I dug out this 








this is a dial that I bought some time ago, and it's a reproduction made by a local "late old artist watchmaster" from the town of Plovdiv (Bulgaria), who apparently passed away not so long ago. I bough it for its artistic merit, and it was advartised as reproduction, not original, so it's all cool. It's obviously the same template as the above watch. 
Then I went to the Bay and checked the raketa again to see who the seller is, and surprise, surprise it's from Bulgaria. There I made the connection (I'm bulgarian).
So it's some kind of homage thing. As long as it is presented for what it is it's perfectly cool with me.

P.S.:The bulgarian connection made me smile there


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Thanks, schnurrp, that was very interesting. While going through the page with the counterfeit reprints I noticed this
> View attachment 12941875
> 
> 
> and then going through my stash I dug out this
> View attachment 12941885
> 
> 
> this is a dial that I bought some time ago, and it's a reproduction made by a local "late old artist watchmaster" from the town of Plovdiv (Bulgaria), who apparently passed away not so long ago. I bough it for its artistic merit, and it was advartised as reproduction, not original, so it's all cool. It's obviously the same template as the above watch.
> Then I went to the Bay and checked the raketa again to see who the seller is, and surprise, surprise it's from Bulgaria. There I made the connection (I'm bulgarian).
> So it's some kind of homage thing. As long as it is presented for what it is it's perfectly cool with me.
> 
> P.S.:The bulgarian connection made me smile there


Interesting and yes, I don't have any problem with reproductions at all as long as they are identified as such.


----------



## souriyan

Neruda said:


> Souriyan - I can't find the reference right now, but I believe Vostok took out a registered trade mark for the "Russia" logo on your watch. I don't know exactly what this implies, but to me this suggests it was intended as a brand rather than merely a design. The onion domes may also connect it to casebacks and labelling used in the late 1980s and early 90s on export models to Italy and the USA.
> 
> I fully agree with Schnurrp that it is most probably authentic. Nice find!


Thanks a lot for the answer.



Kamburov said:


> Had two of those Vostoks in my pessession at different times, 2-3 years apart. The word is indeed RUSS, which may refer to Kievan Russ and/or times that cristianity (ortodox) was introduced to the russ peoples. I'm speculating here, a russian here will be more knowledgeable of the history of that region. Anyway, both of those were this dial/case/hands/combo and made in ussr at the bottom. One was chromed case, the other with golden like plating and chrome plated besel area and crown. Almost identical. Both were without second hands, so don't know obout that, but the red one doesn't seem right to me.
> So my suspicion is that this animal exist and should be a source somewhere that will tell us the exact specs of it. Oh, and both were 2414A SU movements.


Thanks a lot for the answer.

This forum is a great place to find all the infos about any watch. You guys rock ! 

Here's the RUSS with today's nato band :









Cheers


----------



## pjd

New with tags??
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...793888?hash=item54570e1660:g:wD8AAOSw~4taftj~

Surely too good to be true?!
It doesn't say "made in USSR" on the dial...
I'd be interested to know what you all think because I've been looking for one of these for some time... (No pun intended...)


----------



## Kamburov

Going for this one. Those are the seller's photos















the catalogue entry I found is this








It' seems consistent with the entry specs. For now I'm highest bidder and it's under my usual limit of $20, but I would love to hear your opinion on it's condition if I'm to comit myself for a final day push. Obviously the hands are in a bad shape, but if the rest is genuine I can try restoring them.
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

double post to be deleted


----------



## Patatoo

pjd said:


> New with tags??
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...793888?hash=item54570e1660:g:wD8AAOSw~4taftj~
> 
> Surely too good to be true?!
> It doesn't say "made in USSR" on the dial...
> I'd be interested to know what you all think because I've been looking for one of these for some time... (No pun intended...)


This is the closest I could find, from the 1983 catalog (second from the right):









The dial and hands look OK to me (no "Made in the URSS" on the catalog one either) and yours has the 2628H movement. However the one on the catalog has golden case while the eBay one doesn't. Doesn't mean that it's a franken at all, but I can't fins the exact reference for that dial and case combo. Let's see if the soviet experts around here can give us a hand!


----------



## Kamburov

Hi, pjd, these stadium models are so many (not including special issues as olympic ones), that people have done infinite number of combinations with them. Untill I see the exact combination in a reliable source I will remain sceptical. Here's the catalogue entry of the chromed version









Notice the metalic grey colour of the dial on these models, POLET at 9 and silver second hand. The one on sale is with a matte grey dial, which is quite unisual for this model. I had the golden case brother (catalogue in patatoo's post) and it was all shiny metallic brown and gold. This looks like a combination of two models.
I'm qurious what the experts verdict will be on this one.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Hi, pjd, these stadium models are so many (not including special issues as olympic ones), that people have done infinite number of combinations with them. Untill I see the exact combination in a reliable source I will remain sceptical. Here's the catalogue entry of the chromed version
> 
> View attachment 12948975
> 
> 
> Notice the metalic grey colour of the dial on these models, POLET at 9 and silver second hand. The one on sale is with a matte grey dial, which is quite unisual for this model. I had the golden case brother (catalogue in patatoo's post) and it was all shiny metallic brown and gold. This looks like a combination of two models.
> I'm qurious what the experts verdict will be on this one.


The fact that no place of manufacture is present would make me think twice. Should look like this, no?


----------



## pjd

Thanks guys.
I take on board all that you say. 
Something doesn't seem right about that one, I will give it a miss. 
I've seen another I feel is correct. I will have a think today before buying the other I've seen.


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp, exactly. Although corroded at the back, yellow crown, and still no catalogue entry for reference, the layout looks genuine enough and consistent with other similar models. As for the NEW tag, firstly there's no passport, and secondly all the parts included may be technicly new but the watch may still not be genuine.


----------



## shahrincamille

Kamburov said:


> There is one of mine with 2414A SU inside. Sorry for the bad photo.
> View attachment 12941439


Isn't the 2414 supposed to come with a date complication? I can't seem to find it in your watch though:-s

Shahrinb-)


----------



## Patatoo

Kamburov said:


> Hi, pjd, these stadium models are so many (not including special issues as olympic ones), that people have done infinite number of combinations with them. Untill I see the exact combination in a reliable source I will remain sceptical. Here's the catalogue entry of the chromed version
> 
> View attachment 12948975
> 
> 
> Notice the metalic grey colour of the dial on these models, POLET at 9 and silver second hand. The one on sale is with a matte grey dial, which is quite unisual for this model. I had the golden case brother (catalogue in patatoo's post) and it was all shiny metallic brown and gold. This looks like a combination of two models.
> I'm qurious what the experts verdict will be on this one.


Whoops, totally missed that one! Sadly the scan isn't high def, but there's a smudge on the lower area of the dial which I believe is the manufacture place. Is it possible that the one posted by Pjd is a combination of this case and the blank dial? As you said, there's a huge number of combinations of these Poljot models, so sadly you have to assume they're frankens until proven otherwise via different sources!


----------



## Kamburov

Doh! Shahrin, you are right. I've had so many vostok's movements in front of my eyes lately that I totally missed the forest for the trees. Didn't pay attention. No, it's not a typing mistake, either the bridge is replaced, or the date complication is covered by the dial. If it was removed the cannon pinion would be longer and the hands would stick out higher above the dial, right? Shame on me.
Thanks for spotting! Really! Now I have a little mess on my hands to sort out.


----------



## Kamburov

Patatoo, my wild guess is that pjd's is a combination of that case and a movement/dial/hands set from another model (with the sun rays hour marks?). The white second hand suggests that. I think that the above models we discussed seem to always have a silver second hand for the chromed case and golden hand for the golden case. And shiny metallic look in general.


----------



## pjd

Thanks guys.
I'm going to steer clear. There's too many "what ifs, etc.. "

By the way in the scanned image, the dimples on the lower edge of the crystal don't look central, is that how they are?


----------



## Kamburov

pjd, I don't think those are dimples, but reflections of a light source. The quality of marketing and advertising in soviet times vasn't exactly top notch 

PS: So they may be dimples afterall. Correction then: The quality and precision of the finishing in soviet times wasn't exactly top notch


----------



## schnurrp

pjd said:


> Thanks guys.
> I'm going to steer clear. There's too many "what ifs, etc.. "
> 
> By the way in the scanned image, the dimples on the lower edge of the crystal don't look central, is that how they are?


I agree with kamburov. Also this little detail may have been added by hand with some kind of grinding tool prior to plating. Notice my gold version is also slightly rotated clockwise:


----------



## Patski

My new one from last night! I'ts always good to know what to look for a Legit one,. I got this Poljot, does seems quite used, tho I love the color of the Dial. The needles seems to fit, but I don't know about the movement, seems almost brand new... Anyway, for 20$ shipped, I will enjoy wearing it!


----------



## bpmurray

Kamburov said:


> Going for this one. Those are the seller's photos
> 
> the catalogue entry I found is this
> 
> It' seems consistent with the entry specs. For now I'm highest bidder and it's under my usual limit of $20, but I would love to hear your opinion on it's condition if I'm to comit myself for a final day push. Obviously the hands are in a bad shape, but if the rest is genuine I can try restoring them.
> Ivan


Ivan,

Looks good to me. Interesting "civilian" variant of the Komandirskie of the same time. The hands should be easy to find replacements for, from pretty much any vintage Komandirskie. Good luck!

- Brian


----------



## Kamburov

Thanks, Brian! Posted it as the hands condition looked different from otherwise excellent condition of the rest of the watch. Now that I think of it, for a watch with no screw type crown that is maybe not that strange. Won't be the first anyway. Still early auction stage and price is catching up rapidly with my bid, so I may be out of my league here. Can't be lucky every time


----------



## Horloge17

Patski said:


> My new one from last night! I'ts always good to know what to look for a Legit one,. I got this Poljot, does seems quite used, tho I love the color of the Dial. The needles seems to fit, but I don't know about the movement, seems almost brand new... Anyway, for 20$ shipped, I will enjoy wearing it!


The box of Bolek34 his Lenovo Tablet is so recognizable... enjoy your new watch Patski |> |> |>


----------



## Patski

Horloge17 said:


> Patski said:
> 
> 
> 
> My new one from last night! I'ts always good to know what to look for a Legit one,. I got this Poljot, does seems quite used, tho I love the color of the Dial. The needles seems to fit, but I don't know about the movement, seems almost brand new... Anyway, for 20$ shipped, I will enjoy wearing it!
> 
> 
> 
> The box of Bolek34 his Lenovo Tablet is so recognizable... enjoy your new watch Patski |> |> |>
Click to expand...

That much? Anyway, he has very good prices and seems to have original products!


----------



## Horloge17

Yes he mostly has good (read low) prices for his watches, and they don't look to be to polished to be true...


----------



## system11

Franken? I was wondering if the seconds hand has been repainted and maybe the poljot logo. If real, do you think that dial would clean up & be possible to renovate slightly?


----------



## Kamburov

system11, I am deffinately no expert, and I can't find a catalogue entry of this model, so you can disregard my comment and wait for a more reputable member to give his/her opinion. 
That said, this model is quite popular, although I don't remember seing that colour dial before. I found this watch on the net and there are more pfotos from different angles and of the movement. On this photo it is not very visible, but "made in ussr" is there as it should be. The layout looks right including the white second hand. The level of wear is also normal for it's age, this model is from the beginning of the 80's, if not earlier. The most convincing thing for me is the dial paint damage in the corner, that looks genuine russian watch dial there 
Now, it can still be franken. If, for example, that movement has been originaly in a golden plated case, with golden hands, later transferred in a chromed case with chromed hands. Untill someone posts a reliable proof that this was the exact original state of that watch, we can't be sure. My guess is that it's genuine.
Now, to answer your renovation question, the short answer is no. Most of the dials of vintage russian watches are very easy to mess. For every successfully restored dial I have wasted ten, and I have plenty of spares to practice upon. You have only one shot at this. So DIY cleaning is not recommended. Besides, that spot is beyond DIY repair.
I think that if you like this model, for this money there must be better choices out there. 
Good luck!
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> system11, I am deffinately no expert, and I can't find a catalogue entry of this model, so you can disregard my comment and wait for a more reputable member to give his/her opinion.
> That said, this model is quite popular, although I don't remember seing that colour dial before. I found this watch on the net and there are more pfotos from different angles and of the movement. On this photo it is not very visible, but "made in ussr" is there as it should be. The layout looks right including the white second hand. The level of wear is also normal for it's age, this model is from the beginning of the 80's, if not earlier. The most convincing thing for me is the dial paint damage in the corner, that looks genuine russian watch dial there
> Now, it can still be franken. If, for example, that movement has been originaly in a golden plated case, with golden hands, later transferred in a chromed case with chromed hands. Untill someone posts a reliable proof that this was the exact original state of that watch, we can't be sure. My guess is that it's genuine.
> Now, to answer your renovation question, the short answer is no. Most of the dials of vintage russian watches are very easy to mess. For every successfully restored dial I have wasted ten, and I have plenty of spares to practice upon. You have only one shot at this. So DIY cleaning is not recommended. Besides, that spot is beyond DIY repair.
> I think that if you like this model, for this money there must be better choices out there.
> Good luck!
> Ivan


I have nothing to add to your well-thought out comment, comrade Ivan. I will just repeat: clean dials with blower and soft brush only.


----------



## barutanseijin

I keep seeing no-date Amphibias with 2414A movements. Aren't they supposed to be 2409s?


----------



## mariomart

barutanseijin said:


> I keep seeing no-date Amphibias with 2414A movements. Aren't they supposed to be 2409s?


The only time I have ever used a 2414 in place of a 2409 is when I am using something like a sandwich dial. Sandwich dials are quite thick and require extra height from the hour, minute and second parts to allow the hands to clear the dial. This can be achieved by either rebuilding a 2409 with 2414 parts, or simply removing the calendar complication and plate from the dial side of the 2414 movement.

The other possibility is that the 2414 stamped bridge has been used to repair a 2409 movement as they are freely interchangeable.


----------



## pjd

I decided a few days ago after seeing some of the Vostok mods available that I may try my hand at doing something similar. 
So, I looked for an old Vostok with a steel case to do so... 
I spotted this one and really liked the look of it. Especially that aged dial. 
I'm assuming it started off green or blue, before turning gold with age.

I actually like the way it looks as it is, if it's genuine I won't do any modifications to it, however if it is Franken, I may change the bezel.

I bought it for what it was.

Any comments on age, authenticity etc?


----------



## mariomart

pjd said:


> I decided a few days ago after seeing some of the Vostok mods available that I may try my hand at doing something similar.
> So, I looked for an old Vostok with a steel case to do so...
> I spotted this one and really liked the look of it. Especially that aged dial.
> I'm assuming it started off green or blue, before turning gold with age.
> 
> I actually like the way it looks as it is, if it's genuine I won't do any modifications to it, however if it is Franken, I may change the bezel.
> 
> I bought it for what it was.
> 
> Any comments on age, authenticity etc?


In my personal opinion I believe the entire watch is genuine with all the correct visible parts as should be on a Soviet Amphibia Type 470 of the very late 80's and very early 90's.

The only part that may not be correct is the bezel, as I think it should have a lume pip on the same style bezel.

The movement should be an SU stamped 2409A and there should also be a soft metal anti-magnetic cover located between the case back and the movement.

I've seen this golden dial many times and I'm certain it was always golden, and not the result of ageing or UV damage, however I don't think I've ever seen this exact model in any catalogs of the period.


----------



## pjd

Thanks for that, I appreciate the information.
As it is, I quite like it. I bought it with the intention to modify it, guessing it was probably a franken anyway. I wouldn't want to mod an original watch. 

I wondered if the bezel had been repainted. 
Is the lume pip entirely constructed of lume?
If so, I guess it's possible that it's fallen out??


----------



## Kamburov

pjd, everything is possible with these russian watches, but my guess is that this is a komandirskie besel on an amphibia watch. 
Never seen that dial, very interesting find! Actually seen some, but thought its colour change from blue/purple to brown to gold, as with other old amphibias.
Ivan


----------



## pjd

Thanks for that.
So it looks like it has the wrong bezel,but without seeing the movement, it all seems legit. That's good to know.


----------



## bpmurray

What do you make of this? I've never seen a silvered dial before, but the color and condition of the lume and degradation of the red paint for the star make me think this is 100% genuine.









I've seen plenty of Komandirskie's with shiny dials, but those are always gold, and this appears to be silver. For comparison:















Is this just a trick of the light, or is it a totally different dial? Has anyone seen the silvered dial variant before?

Thanks in advance!

- Brian


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi all, I was very happy with this purchase until recently when a growing feeling this would be a Franken started emerging (black hands on black dial, red dot instead of lume on the bezel). 
Anyone having a view ?


----------



## schnurrp

thewatchadude said:


> Hi all, I was very happy with this purchase until recently when a growing feeling this would be a Franken started emerging (black hands on black dial, red dot instead of lume on the bezel).
> Anyone having a view ?


Yes, I think you are right to be suspicious.


----------



## system11

Kamburov said:


> system11, I am deffinately no expert, and I can't find a catalogue entry of this model, so you can disregard my comment and wait for a more reputable member to give his/her opinion.
> That said, this model is quite popular, although I don't remember seing that colour dial before. I found this watch on the net and there are more pfotos from different angles and of the movement. On this photo it is not very visible, but "made in ussr" is there as it should be. The layout looks right including the white second hand. The level of wear is also normal for it's age, this model is from the beginning of the 80's, if not earlier. The most convincing thing for me is the dial paint damage in the corner, that looks genuine russian watch dial there
> Now, it can still be franken. If, for example, that movement has been originaly in a golden plated case, with golden hands, later transferred in a chromed case with chromed hands. Untill someone posts a reliable proof that this was the exact original state of that watch, we can't be sure. My guess is that it's genuine.
> Now, to answer your renovation question, the short answer is no. Most of the dials of vintage russian watches are very easy to mess. For every successfully restored dial I have wasted ten, and I have plenty of spares to practice upon. You have only one shot at this. So DIY cleaning is not recommended. Besides, that spot is beyond DIY repair.
> I think that if you like this model, for this money there must be better choices out there.
> Good luck!
> Ivan


Thanks very much - I really like the dial on this one but I'll try to set up an automated ebay search and hold out for one in better condition with the same colours. That red really sets the time period for me.


----------



## Kamburov

system11, I understand well waht you mean. I too am fond of this 70's-80's watch design style (remember the orients of that time?). This design is very sensitive to imperfections. If you have bought that watch, trust me, every time you looked at it you would be seing that spot on the dial. Condition is the key for this one. Take your time, add a bit extra if you have to, but it will be worth it. 
Happy hunting and good luck!
Ivan


----------



## Straight_time

pjd said:


> View attachment 12954605
> 
> View attachment 12954607
> 
> 
> I decided a few days ago after seeing some of the Vostok mods available that I may try my hand at doing something similar.
> So, I looked for an old Vostok with a steel case to do so...
> I spotted this one and really liked the look of it. Especially that aged dial.
> I'm assuming it started off green or blue, before turning gold with age.
> 
> I actually like the way it looks as it is, if it's genuine I won't do any modifications to it, however if it is Franken, I may change the bezel.
> 
> I bought it for what it was.
> 
> Any comments on age, authenticity etc?





mariomart said:


> In my personal opinion I believe the entire watch is genuine with all the correct visible parts as should be on a Soviet Amphibia Type 470 of the very late 80's and very early 90's.
> 
> The only part that may not be correct is the bezel, as I think it should have a lume pip on the same style bezel.
> 
> The movement should be an SU stamped 2409A and there should also be a soft metal anti-magnetic cover located between the case back and the movement.
> 
> I've seen this golden dial many times and I'm certain it was always golden, and not the result of ageing or UV damage, however I don't think I've ever seen this exact model in any catalogs of the period.











;-)

(From the 1990 Vostok-Tento 2409A&2416B catalog; also pictured on the 1990-1991 Vostok catalog)


----------



## Kamburov

Straight_time, the blue dial is the popular version, similar design with different writing previously used in the tonneau case, I think.
What mariomart meant is that he has seen dials like this 








and there are other examples that can be seen with that golden colour. Check the texture on the dial on that photo, it doesn't look aged.
At first I thought that the golden colour is the result of UV changing the blue to purple-brown-golden. But that suggests that there should be dials with the transition colours out there. And I don't see any. 
It's that particular dial that's been hiding from us. I couldn't find a catalogue entry for it. It looks genuine to me too, though.
The end of that story remains to be seen 
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Straight_time, the blue dial is the popular version, similar design with different writing previously used in the tonneau case, I think.
> What mariomart meant is that he has seen dials like this
> View attachment 12961373
> 
> 
> and there are other examples that can be seen with that golden colour. Check the texture on the dial on that photo, it doesn't look aged.
> At first I thought that the golden colour is the result of UV changing the blue to purple-brown-golden. But that suggests that there should be dials with the transition colours out there. And I don't see any.
> It's that particular dial that's been hiding from us. I couldn't find a catalogue entry for it. It looks genuine to me too, though.
> The end of that story remains to be seen
> Ivan


I have my doubts about that particular dial/case combination, for what it's worth. Those "graphic" dials, for me, will always be associated with the 8-sided type 470 tooled case or perhaps the earlier type 119 "barrel", lacking any proof to the contrary.

However, I also, have seen this dial in various wear conditions exhibiting the bronze/gold color.


----------



## Straight_time

Kamburov said:


> Straight_time, the blue dial is the popular version, similar design with different writing previously used in the tonneau case, I think.
> What mariomart meant is that he has seen dials like this
> View attachment 12961373
> 
> 
> and there are other examples that can be seen with that golden colour. Check the texture on the dial on that photo, it doesn't look aged.
> At first I thought that the golden colour is the result of UV changing the blue to purple-brown-golden. But that suggests that there should be dials with the transition colours out there. And I don't see any.
> It's that particular dial that's been hiding from us. I couldn't find a catalogue entry for it. It looks genuine to me too, though.
> The end of that story remains to be seen


I understand well what mariomart meant, as my own example is actually golden/bronze too... ;-)

But honestly, I don't believe at all that there were 2 versions of this watch... IMHO it's a myth, more or less like the idea of the "greenish dial version" of some models which actually were orange.

The dial shown above ticks all the boxes of the catalog's description -particularly the vertical shading- and looks exactly the way I would expect from a well preserved piece, with no marks from use but whose color has changed due to UV/sunlight exposure (by the way, that specific example in a round case is a franken, as the original only had the octagonal shaped 470).

My point is that the 1990/91 period is well covered by several catalogs, and I have yet to come across a dial style which doesn't appear on any of them (excluding of course promotional, commemorative or other "special editions" watches, i.e. Serjantskies/Oficierskies). 
Since new catalogs are unlikely to appear, I would reconsider my idea only if somebody could show an example with an original matching passport, in which the model's reference isn't the one commonly known (470304).


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> I understand well what mariomart meant, as my own example is actually golden/bronze too... ;-)
> 
> But honestly, I don't believe at all that there were 2 versions of this watch... IMHO it's a myth, more or less like the idea of the "greenish dial version" of some models which actually were orange.
> 
> The dial shown above ticks all the boxes of the catalog's description -particularly the vertical shading- and looks exactly the way I would expect from a well preserved piece, with no marks from use but whose color has changed due to UV/sunlight exposure (by the way, that specific example in a round case is a franken, as the original only had the octagonal shaped 470).
> 
> My point is that the 1990/91 period is well covered by several catalogs, and I have yet to come across a dial style which doesn't appear on any of them (excluding of course promotional, commemorative or other "special editions" watches, i.e. Serjantskies/Oficierskies).
> Since new catalogs are unlikely to appear, I would reconsider my idea only if somebody could show an example with an original matching passport, in which the model's reference isn't the one commonly known (470304).


It's unfortunate to use what to me looks like a franken (wrong case) to illustrate the authenticity of a dial.


----------



## Kamburov

Straight_time, schnurrp, I agree with you on all points  Yes that 420 is a franken, but it was one of the better photos where the texture lines can be seen well, as I don't own one myself. Straight_time, when you posted the catalogue insert I commented because I thought that all involved members in that conversation are well aware and familiar with that model. It all comes to this:
1. Is the golden colour dial a) genuine golden, b) genuine blue turned golden or c) fake
2. If a) is there a documented evidence of the watch that goes with it
3. If b) can any of the members here confirm this by showing one they own, that was previously blue, and if there is photo material of different stages of colour change, that will be a bonus.

I can not prove or disprove anything, I don't even have the watch. I'm involved in this conversation only because I'm very curious about it. We all agree on one thing, though, that only hard evidence can confirm anything, not guesses and assumptions, no matter how educated they are. For all I know the guy that mixed the paint in the factory that day had a really rough night before. 

If you both have or had at some point bronze/gold dial watches and you are sure that those were blue before that, then there we go, we have a winner, mystery solved  If that's what you are saying.
If not, as I said, the end remains to be seen 
It's always a pleasure brainstorming with you, though 
Ivan


----------



## pjd

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/152849065772

Just found one with a green dial on eBay.


----------



## Lampoc

Just seen this pop up on facebook. I've never seen this dial before... Your thoughts?


----------



## schnurrp

Lampoc said:


> Just seen this pop up on facebook. I've never seen this dial before... Your thoughts?


Although I've not seen it before, it looks authentic. Do the papers look good....matching serial numbers?


----------



## Lampoc

schnurrp said:


> Although I've not seen it before, it looks authentic. Do the papers look good....matching serial numbers?


Yeah, the papers match but it seems like everyone is selling watches with matching papers nowadays. I trust all those papers about as far as I can throw them!


----------



## schnurrp

Lampoc said:


> Yeah, the papers match but it seems like everyone is selling watches with matching papers nowadays. I trust all those papers about as far as I can throw them!


Better than non-matching papers. Who's to say it's not authentic with correct (looking) papers? I would be fairly well satisfied.


----------



## Kamburov

pjd, the missing link in the evolution of the blue antimagnetic vostok dial? Similar to the blue scuba dude transformation process. No surprises then, order is restored.
Ivan


----------



## pjd

Kamburov said:


> pjd, the missing link in the evolution of the blue antimagnetic vostok dial? Similar to the blue scuba dude transformation process. No surprises then, order is restored.
> Ivan


So are we to deduce from this that my en route gold dialled Vostok started life as blue, turning green until it finally went gold?

No lume dot on the bezel either!


----------



## Kamburov

pjd said:


> So are we to deduce from this that my en route gold dialled Vostok started life as blue, turning green until it finally went gold?
> 
> No lume dot on the bezel either!


 No, no, that is a franken again. Straight_time posted the catalogue page with the authentic model with blue dial. Nevermind that frank watch. I'm talking about the chemical process that changes the colour of the dial as a result of UV rays. I've seen blue dial colour change on Poljot and Vostok Neptune. What I've observed is blue getting darker blue (like eggplant) and then into brown. Brown then eventually lightens and turns to golden. That happens over a long period of time, of course, depending on the duration of exposure to sunlight and may be other factors that accelerate the process (temperature, air moisture?). 
On that franken watch dial there a similar process is happening. I'm not sure it's the same exact colour transition on that photo, but one thing is obvious - a shiny golden/bronze color where it was previously light blue. So the gold/bronze CAN actually come from blue. That fact combined with the total absense of information on a watch model with originally golden colour dial means that most probably the same thing happened on the dial of your watch. And many other similar dials. What I and Straight_time suggested in the first posts. 
In short, that means that a watch can be genuine even if it doesn't have the same colours as when it was produced. Also that, may be, there never was a model with golden dial, no evidence to support that so far.
Please, comrades, correct me if my logic is wrong here!
Ivan


----------



## mariomart

pjd said:


> So are we to deduce from this that my en route gold dialled Vostok started life as blue, turning green until it finally went gold?
> 
> No lume dot on the bezel either!


The photo supplied below is taken off a book called "Fascination of Russian Watches" by Micheal Ceyp and was printed in 1995.

I'm pretty certain that it shows the golden dial as it was back in 1995 as if you look at the very bottom of the dial you can see the gold colour showing. I believe that due to the angle the photo was taken the central section is not showing as gold due to being photographed from directly above, similar to when silver hands look black in photo's at the same angle. As these dials were still newish back in 1995 I'm a believer that the chance of it having faded is minimal.


----------



## Straight_time

Forgetting for a while that Ceyp's book is a good-but-not-100%-reliable source, as it contains several inaccuracies of various degrees of seriousness, the pictured example isn't a *new* watch: there is a scratch between the 25 and the 30 minute indexes (hopefully a hairline on the glass, and not on the dial itself) and, most of all, there are clear, severe signs of corrosion on the minutes hand. 


I would therefore be very, very cautious before accepting it as reference, because if the 4/5 years elapsed between production and publication have been enough to leave such marks on it, god only knows what might have happened to the dial's original shade (which, anyway, looks mainly dark blue to my eye -but we also know nothing about the color calibration in the book's printing process, though: compare for instance the rather bright orange triangle of the catalog's photo vs. the pale yellow one of Ceyp's).


----------



## Kye752

This is one of mine you can see the dial has gone golden over time due to ageing strangely in a stripe through the dial not the entire dial itself the orange is gone from the triangle which yes its a different dial but should still follow the same principals i myself have seen two separate styles to the watch youre talking about one gold and one black if you have a look at these two examples you can see for the dial to age gold all colours on the dial are also trashed


----------



## Kamburov

Kye752, mine has aged the same as yours - vertical golden stripe with blackish edges. Two important notes, though, even as new (I don't have a new one) it seems to kinda have this pattern, and its original colours are brownish. It's easier to accept the change by intuition. The confusion comes with the ones that turn golden but were originaly something completely different (light blue or dark blue in the discussed cases). I believe that those follow specific patterns in the colour transformation with similar intermediate stages. The change doesn't happen overnight - blue in the evening and gold in the morning. You can see brown scuba dudes that were dark blue once. With the light blue antimagnetics there's the extra confusion that you see them either light blue or golden/bronze. I think that their change is not as gradual as with the scuba dude, and intermediate stages are much shorter in time, which creates the sense of magical transformation. That's why I asked if there are members here that have witnessed it.
I also believe that the colour transformation changes on atomic and molecular level follow the law of physics. I don't have the paints chemical formulas, or the chemistry knowledge, or the laboratory to test the effect of UV on them. So I observe and follow the patterns. 
I may be wrong of course, but that's why I discuss this with all of you, as we share the same passion, besides I don't have anyone else to discuss it with.
Ivan


----------



## Bostok

Anybody has one of these or more relevant information on this watch? Quite curiously, I don’t seem to find another example beside the catalogue image, is this a rather rare model or just a random coincidence?


----------



## Kamburov

Never seen that textured dial model, I quite like it. It's a 2209 movement, and I think of going for it. Any info will be appreciated.


----------



## Bostok

Kamburov said:


> Never seen that textured dial model, I quite like it. It's a 2209 movement, and I think of going for it. Any info will be appreciated.


the watch seems legit and in good condition

You might check here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/de-frankenization-4573155.html#post44640301

and the photo attachements in the initial post of mroatman


----------



## Kamburov

Thanks a lot, Bostok, much appreciated! 
Ivan

Thank you too Straight_time!


----------



## constantin-o-politan

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> It's unfortunate to use what to me looks like a franken (wrong case) to illustrate the authenticity of a dial.


Thanks for info comrades, this is my watch, and I think this could be a franken as well, and perhaps an octogonal case would be a correct match imho.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Straight_time

Kamburov said:


> Never seen that textured dial model, I quite like it. It's a 2209 movement, and I think of going for it. Any info will be appreciated.
> View attachment 12965683


Model 2209/083051 originally appeared on the Vostok 1983/85 Catalog with gilded/black striped hour and minutes hands









and later on the 1987 Consumer Goods Catalog with black hands









Your example looks 100% legit according to the latter. |>

Here they are together 

View attachment IMG_8425.jpg


----------



## schnurrp

Bostok said:


> Anybody has one of these or more relevant information on this watch? Quite curiously, I don't seem to find another example beside the catalogue image, is this a rather rare model or just a random coincidence?


I've not seen that one before but looks authentic when compared to the catalog picture. Nice catch!


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> Model 2209/083051 originally appeared on the Vostok 1983/85 Catalog with gilded/black striped hour and minutes hands
> and later on the 1987 Consumer Goods Catalog with black hands


Brilliant!

Somehow I just *knew* the black baton hands must be a valid alternative. Thank you very much for the final proof 👏


----------



## mroatman

Bostok said:


> Anybody has one of these or more relevant information on this watch? Quite curiously, I don't seem to find another example beside the catalogue image, is this a rather rare model or just a random coincidence?


I've never seen any image other than the catalog excerpt you attached. First time ever seeing that watch in the flesh.

My advice: buy buy buy!


----------



## system11

Disclaimer: I bought this regardless. That said, original? The seller claims it is, but then they also say this quartz has been serviced and oiled.


----------



## bpmurray

system11 said:


> Disclaimer: I bought this regardless. That said, original? The seller claims it is, but then they also say this quartz has been serviced and oiled.


Glad to hear they topped up the fluids! I'd double check that they are sending you a summer battery as well, as the change in seasons is just around the corner; you don't want to be stuck with a winter one.


----------



## schnurrp

system11 said:


> Disclaimer: I bought this regardless. That said, original? The seller claims it is, but then they also say this quartz has been serviced and oiled.
> 
> View attachment 12967553


The usual soviet analog quartz movement (and those made by other countries, I assume) has the usual mechanical gear set found on a wind up mechanical movement less the mainspring gears, and the balance, pallet fork, and escapement assemblies.

This gear train probably needs service occasionally.


----------



## system11

The black & silver strap really works on that watch, I hope it looks as good in person.


----------



## momosalah

This one is advertised as military watches from early 90s. Anyone with more experience can tell me if this is legit?


----------



## mroatman

momosalah said:


> This one is advertised as military watches from early 90s. Anyone with more experience can tell me if this is legit?


Unlikely to be a military watch, but does appear to be from the 90s.


----------



## skipvel

Does anyone recognize this watch 17 jewel Poljot with a very pretty face? Any info on date or real maker? Sorry the back picture isn't much help. Thanks.


----------



## system11

momosalah said:


> This one is advertised as military watches from early 90s. Anyone with more experience can tell me if this is legit?


Honestly that looks so good I'd wear it even if it was a frankenwatch. The missile carrier is cool AF.


----------



## pjd

Seems in an awesome condition... 
What do you think?


----------



## Kamburov

pjd, check out the catalogue








It's funny how the seller has set it at 10:08, almost exactly as on the catalogue. The case back and movement photos look ok to me (as my tonneau models), with exeption of the missing serial number on the case back. Is that normal? I really don't know, all my amphibias have a serial number on the case back. May be it's been polished out. Also I'm sure there are a lot of reprints of these models' dials, and I haven't seen enough to spot a tiny difference. 
To answer your question - it's a very good looking watch, that's what I think  I like the tonneau, I'm wearing one right now. 
As to it's authenticity, I will leave that to the expert eye of the more experienced comrades. 
Good luck!
Ivan


----------



## Neruda

Kamburov - The serial number is beneath the balance on the movement, dating it to pre-1985. The Soviet quality logo on the caseback and the SU on the movement both look correct. What is the date of the catalogue?


----------



## Neruda

Skipvel - if it wasn't for the Poljot logo, the guilloche decoration reminds me a lot of some Poljot International models from the 1990s. This said, the caseback looks more recent. Still, there may be some German input?


----------



## Kamburov

Catalogue is 1987. I've just never seen a case back with no number pressed in it. My mistake, I was meaning case number, not serial.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> pjd, check out the catalogue
> View attachment 12973935
> 
> 
> It's funny how the seller has set it at 10:08, almost exactly as on the catalogue. The case back and movement photos look ok to me (as my tonneau models), with exeption of the missing serial number on the case back. Is that normal? I really don't know, all my amphibias have a serial number on the case back. May be it's been polished out. Also I'm sure there are a lot of reprints of these models' dials, and I haven't seen enough to spot a tiny difference.
> To answer your question - it's a very good looking watch, that's what I think  I like the tonneau, I'm wearing one right now.
> As to it's authenticity, I will leave that to the expert eye of the more experienced comrades.
> Good luck!
> Ivan


Do you have a link to that catalog, comrade?


----------



## momosalah

system11 said:


> Honestly that looks so good I'd wear it even if it was a frankenwatch. The missile carrier is cool AF.


Haha it is super cool but looks like I might have to pass. Case size 37mm too I dont think I have seen too many komandirskie with this size. Loads of komandirskie with cool dials out there though mate


----------



## Kamburov

Do you have a link to that catalog said:


> It's from the "1987 Catalogue of common consumption goods, book II, part watches", first printed probably in 1986. I've downloaded it together with many other PDF catalogues through a link from this thread, and I don't keep the link to the source. That's many posts back, maybe even in the part 1 of the thread. I thought most of you have it. Will try finding that link, though.
> There's mroatman's floral texture dial Vostok with the black baton hands on that same page (I got outbid on this one).
> 
> Actually I keep the source page, from the italian forum OROLOGIKO, all sorted by year on that page:
> 
> OROLOGIKO ? Leggi argomento - Cataloghi orologi sovietici - Soviet Watches Catalogs


----------



## mariomart

I've seen this style of dial with the circular outer relief and the hatched relief in the centre combined, but I've never seen it with this style of dial finishing. My gut feeling is that it's possibly a reused and repainted dial.

Does anyone have any photo references of this dial, or even one in their possession?


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> I've seen this style of dial with the circular outer relief and the hatched relief in the centre combined, but I've never seen it with this style of dial finishing. My gut feeling is that it's possibly a reused and repainted dial.
> 
> Does anyone have any photo references of this dial, or even one in their possession?


Weird! A reused and repainted dial was my knee-jerk reaction as well, but two problems:

1) The printing is flawless and looks absolutely original.
2) Which dial would have been used for the reprinting? All such Raketa dials with the little square indices had texture, even if just a little along the minute track....









Looks like it could be a very rare, authentic variation.


----------



## Kamburov

Check this out







but also 








the second black dial model seems plain, with no texture, but with added colour ring on the radius of the hour markers. Isn't it possible that paint on this line has been fallen or erased to create a clean black dial? No need to reprint even.
Also the second hand is wrong, which might suggest that the watch has been tempered with.
Ivan

Mario, I bought a white dial model without a second hand yesterday and I was searching the catalogue for it when you posted 
Dashiell, that's a stunning collection! If my wild suggestion turns out to be correct, you'll be filling some more space in that 700 watch box of yours 
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> It's from the "1987 Catalogue of common consumption goods, book II, part watches", first printed probably in 1986. I've downloaded it together with many other PDF catalogues through a link from this thread, and I don't keep the link to the source. That's many posts back, maybe even in the part 1 of the thread. I thought most of you have it. Will try finding that link, though.
> There's mroatman's floral texture dial Vostok with the black baton hands on that same page (I got outbid on this one).
> 
> Actually I keep the source page, from the italian forum OROLOGIKO, all sorted by year on that page:
> 
> OROLOGIKO ? Leggi argomento - Cataloghi orologi sovietici - Soviet Watches Catalogs
> 
> View attachment 12974533
> 
> View attachment 12974537


Thanks. First time I've seen the type 119 in a catalog with the flat crown.


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> Thanks. First time I've seen the type 119 in a catalog with the flat crown.


I bought an (what I believe) authentic one two weeks ago, the model on the right with flat crown. I had this page ready extracted for that very reason, the crown verification. 
Ivan


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> the second black dial model seems plain, with no texture, but with added colour ring on the radius of the hour markers. Isn't it possible that paint on this line has been fallen or erased to create a clean black dial? No need to reprint even.


I could be wrong, but I'm guessing the "color ring" is really just how the texture appears in that terrible catalog photo. For example:









I don't know what to make of Mario's find, but if it's original, I don't think it's depicted in any catalogs...


----------



## Kamburov

mroatman said:


> I could be wrong, but I'm guessing the "color ring" is really just how the texture appears in that terrible catalog photo.


Yes, the photos are terrible, and no description text, very hard to navigate through this. 
Still, on the first page the models have the texture ring and it's hardly visible - on the white model not visible at all, on the black one its visible as is the dial mesh texture .
On the second page models, suddenly the ring is much more pronounced. Might be still the texture, just different lighting? Take the black one - if the ring is texture shadow/light then that would mean that the dial is flat and no mesh texture. It may not be the Mario's model, but still a flat black dial.
The logic raises questions about the white models too - if on the second white model the ring is texture (the one you compare with your watch), then what's going on with the first one? All flat and no texture ring? If it has a texture ring then what's the difference between the two models? Chromed and golden variations?
I think that whatever the outcome, you might wanna keep at least one free space in that box 
Ivan


----------



## skipvel

Neruda said:


> Skipvel - if it wasn't for the Poljot logo, the guilloche decoration reminds me a lot of some Poljot International models from the 1990s. This said, the caseback looks more recent. Still, there may be some German input?


Thanks for the input. I thought with the 17 jewels it might be an older legit poljot (they say it's an older watch) but I couldn't google a similar dial. It's 200+ so I wasn't going to jump unless it was poljot; unfortunately the sellers picture of the caseback isn't much help. I just thought someone might recognize it as being genuine.


----------



## Kamburov

Comrades Mario and Dashiell, took a little time to check the russian sites and catalogues for that Raketa.
First of all, Dashiell, you were right and I was wrong. The black and white photos are really that bad, that model's dial does have the mesh texture.
These are all the models I could find with the discussed dial design. The first 7 of them are from a 1967 Raketa catalogue, and the last 2, in a different case, are from 1975.


All three black face models are textured, they appear in other catalogues with even better quality pictures. None of the family's members has the dial of Mario's example, or even close to it.
I agree with Dashiell that it looks genuine and not a reprint, but noone seems to have a clue as to what is the watch supposed to look like, or even the case type that it was originally housed in. 
On the bright side, though, Dashiell, you may still find something to add to that excellent collection of yours. Or not? I wouldn't be that surprised if you posted the above colage with your watches 
I have nothing more to add for now.
Ivan


----------



## skipvel

Neruda said:


> Skipvel - if it wasn't for the Poljot logo, the guilloche decoration reminds me a lot of some Poljot International models from the 1990s. This said, the caseback looks more recent. Still, there may be some German input?


I have a new picture of the caseback from the seller. Does it seem like a legit Poljot?


----------



## skipvel

Sorry. AND what is the Hep word and the Cta word. Thanks


----------



## Neruda

Stainless Steel

Yes, that certainly now looks like a genuine 1990s caseback. Everything depends on it having a correct Poljot movement inside!


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> I think that whatever the outcome, you might wanna keep at least one free space in that box
> Ivan





Kamburov said:


> On the bright side, though, Dashiell, you may still find something to add to that excellent collection of yours.


Oh, there's always something to add, and always room for one more 

You have correctly identified the three case types that I'm familiar with (straight lugs [type 60x], crab case [type 82x], and the rarest, splayed lugs [type 95x]), and I'd have a lot more collecting to do if I wanted to get all case types! But I honestly like the crab cases the best. I thought I had caught all of these models (see here) until Mario showed this newest, most-peculiar find....

By the way, your question here: "If it has a texture ring then what's the difference between the two models? Chromed and golden variations?" has a simple answer. Yes, you're exactly right  The difference is chrome versus gold-plated cases. How can we know? Early Soviet watch model numbers are usually in ABC123 format, where ABC represents the case type, and 123 represents the hand set. Furthermore, the "C" in the case type represents the case _material_, where 1 = chrome-plated, and 3 = gold-plated. So a model number of xx1xxx is found in a chromed case, while a model number xx3xxx would be found in a gold-plated case.

You can read much more in Phil's excellent analysis here: russian-codes.

This would mean that the differences between the models below are 1) case material and 2) hand color (to correspond with the case color; i.e. if we find gold hands in a chromed case for this particular watch, we can be confident it's franken).


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Oh, there's always something to add, and always room for one more
> 
> You have correctly identified the three case types that I'm familiar with (straight lugs [type 60x], crab case [type 82x], and the rarest, splayed lugs [type 95x]), and I'd have a lot more collecting to do if I wanted to get all case types! But I honestly like the crab cases the best. I thought I had caught all of these models (see here) until Mario showed this newest, most-peculiar find....
> 
> By the way, your question here: "If it has a texture ring then what's the difference between the two models? Chromed and golden variations?" has a simple answer. Yes, you're exactly right  The difference is chrome versus gold-plated cases. How can we know? Early Soviet watch model numbers are usually in ABC123 format, where ABC represents the case type, and 123 represents the hand set. Furthermore, the "C" in the case type represents the case _material_, where 1 = chrome-plated, and 3 = gold-plated. So a model number of xx1xxx is found in a chromed case, while a model number xx3xxx would be found in a gold-plated case.
> 
> You can read much more in Phil's excellent analysis here: russian-codes.
> 
> This would mean that the differences between the models below are 1) case material and 2) hand color (to correspond with the case color; i.e. if we find gold hands in a chromed case for this particular watch, we can be confident it's franken).


Well I decided there was enough information to take the plunge and welcome it into my family.


----------



## Kamburov

Dashiell, thanks for sharing! It's amazing what you can find gowing down the endless labyrinth of soviet watchmaking. There are always surprises round the corner, maybe more for me and less for you, the more experienced comrades in the forum. Like everything in life, just when you think you've seen it all something just pops up out of nowhere 
Mario, hope you will share with us your new watch when you meet in person!
Ivan

PS: While searching for catalogues I found the personal site of a guy called Andrei, and he has one of the most complete gatalogues list, also he seems to keep it updated: 
http://ussr-watch.com/watch-catalogues/
Found some scans I haven't seen before. There's a watchuseek link on his site, and I guess he might be a member. So, Andrei, if you are reading this, thank you for sharing! Great job!


----------



## NuttySlack

Would comrades kindly cast an expert eye upon this Sturmanskie:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLJOT-S...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


----------



## schnurrp

NuttySlack said:


> Would comrades kindly cast an expert eye upon this Sturmanskie:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLJOT-S...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


Looks good to me although the bad white balance of the photos makes it a little harder to confirm the case, crowns, and pushers as stainless steel.

Early eighties I think in excellent condition but wear on the back and back of lugs makes me doubt the "NOS" description.


----------



## NuttySlack

schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me although the bad white balance of the photos makes it a little harder to confirm the case, crowns, and pushers as stainless steel.
> 
> Early eighties I think in excellent condition but wear on the back and back of lugs makes me doubt the "NOS" description.


Thanks Paul - I hadn't noticed the NOS bit. I thought it looked right but don't really trust myself 

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## MattBrace

NuttySlack said:


> Would comrades kindly cast an expert eye upon this Sturmanskie:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLJOT-S...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


It has some good points. Movement etc.
The internal bezel ring is a later replacement, as is the Sturmanskie caseback. The stamping of the wording Sturmanskie is further in from the caseback edge, early examples are much closer to the edge.


----------



## schnurrp

MattBrace said:


> It has some good points. Movement etc.
> The internal bezel ring is a later replacement, as is the Sturmanskie caseback. The stamping of the wording Sturmanskie is further in from the caseback edge, early examples are much closer to the edge.


Good stuff, Matt.

What should the inner bezel look like?

Here's a picture of the movement and case back of mine:


----------



## MattBrace

schnurrp said:


> MattBrace said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has some good points. Movement etc.
> The internal bezel ring is a later replacement, as is the Sturmanskie caseback. The stamping of the wording Sturmanskie is further in from the caseback edge, early examples are much closer to the edge.
> 
> 
> 
> Good stuff, Matt.
> 
> What should the inner bezel look like?
> 
> Here's a picture of the movement and case back of mine:
> 
> 
> View attachment 12978153
Click to expand...

Hi Paul, as you can see your redeye has the correct caseback. The internal bezel ring has yellow numbers albeit a tiny bit faded, later examples had much more white numbers.

Cheers..


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Weird! A reused and repainted dial was my knee-jerk reaction as well, but two problems:
> 
> 1) The printing is flawless and looks absolutely original.
> 2) Which dial would have been used for the reprinting? All such Raketa dials with the little square indices had texture, even if just a little along the minute track....
> 
> Looks like it could be a very rare, authentic variation.


I happened to stumble upon another listing today which has this dial, I believe this listing has the correct seconds hand. Now the hunt to find one


----------



## NuttySlack

MattBrace said:


> Hi Paul, as you can see your redeye has the correct caseback. The internal bezel ring has yellow numbers albeit a tiny bit faded, later examples had much more white numbers.
> 
> Cheers..


Thanks Matt, you have shown me what a minefield it is collecting Soviet chronographs. It will take me a while to acquire enough knowledge to rely upon my own judgement.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## Kamburov

mariomart said:


> I happened to stumble upon another listing today which has this dial, I believe this listing has the correct seconds hand. Now the hunt to find one


 Funny, look what's been in my spare parts shopping list for a month now. You should have no problems finding one.
Ivan


----------



## MattBrace

NuttySlack said:


> MattBrace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Paul, as you can see your redeye has the correct caseback. The internal bezel ring has yellow numbers albeit a tiny bit faded, later examples had much more white numbers.
> 
> Cheers..
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Matt, you have shown me what a minefield it is collecting Soviet chronographs. It will take me a while to acquire enough knowledge to rely upon my own judgement.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Not problem at all, it's helpful to have this thread for that exact reason. It's getting alot harder to find good military issue examples in original condition.


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> just when you think you've seen it all something just pops up out of nowhere


Ain't that the truth.


----------



## XsiOn

Hi,

I believe this hands are correct for some Kama watches.... but are they correct for this Kama?


----------



## Kamburov

XsiOn, this from 1960 catalogue


----------



## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> Hi,
> I believe this hands are correct for some Kama watches.... but are they correct for this Kama?





Kamburov said:


> XsiOn, this from 1960 catalogue


Ivan is correct. And in general, the rule holds true: lumed dials require lumed hands.

Kama watches should also be found with a distinct "nipple" crown, almost always replaced.

Here are two of mine -- only the right watch has the correct crown, I believe.


----------



## GuiHD

I bought this one which reads Antimagnetic on the dial in a round case. 
Is this a franken?
Also is it common that the bezel is fixed? This one does not move at all.
One last thing it does not have the antimagnetic shield.
I paid 22 bucks for it.


----------



## Avidfan

GuiHD - The anti-magnetic shield is built into the case back!

And bezel should turn.


----------



## GuiHD

Avidfan said:


> GuiHD - The anti-magnetic shield is built into the case back!
> 
> And bezel should turn.


What do you think? Is the watch original? And what about the non moving bezel?


----------



## schnurrp

GuiHD said:


> I bought this one which reads Antimagnetic on the dial in a round case.
> Is this a franken?
> Also is it common that the bezel is fixed? This one does not move at all.
> One last thing it does not have the antimagnetic shield.
> I paid 22 bucks for it.


In my opinion that "graphic" dial type pictured below belongs in the type 470 tooled stainless "octagon" case. I've never seen the type 020 round case with any of the "graphic" dials pictured in a catalog and this is one of the first ones I remember seeing for sale. I would be suspicious.









Also, I believe the antimagnetic case back is only found on the antimagnetic amphibians with automatic movements, an example pictured below, and they can be identified by the little round hole in the center.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> In my opinion that "graphic" dial type pictured below belongs in the type 470 tooled stainless "octagon" case. I've never seen the type 020 round case with any of the "graphic" dials pictured in a catalog and this is one of the first ones I remember seeing for sale. I would be suspicious.
> 
> View attachment 12979847
> 
> 
> Also, I believe the antimagnetic case back is only found on the antimagnetic amphibians with automatic movements, an example pictured below, and they can be identified by the little round hole in the center.
> 
> View attachment 12979853
> View attachment 12979857


Remove the bezel and clean it; it should turn.


----------



## GuiHD

schnurrp said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion that "graphic" dial type pictured below belongs in the type 470 tooled stainless "octagon" case. I've never seen the type 020 round case with any of the "graphic" dials pictured in a catalog and this is one of the first ones I remember seeing for sale. I would be suspicious.
> 
> View attachment 12979847
> 
> 
> Also, I believe the antimagnetic case back is only found on the antimagnetic amphibians with automatic movements, an example pictured below, and they can be identified by the little round hole in the center.
> 
> View attachment 12979853
> View attachment 12979857
> 
> 
> 
> Remove the bezel and clean it; it should turn.
Click to expand...

In conclusion it is likely to be a franken watch. Now th thing is, is it still a good buy or not? It keeps good time. Did any of you see the movement? Is is from a new vostok or is likely to be the original that came with the dial?


----------



## Dub Rubb

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mroatman said:


> Ivan is correct. And in general, the rule holds true: lumed dials require lumed hands.
> 
> Kama watches should also be found with a distinct "nipple" crown, almost always replaced.
> 
> Here are two of mine -- only the right watch has the correct crown, I believe.
> 
> View attachment 12979445


I agree with this, especially the "in general" part. I am still confident that my Poljot watch is original (with unlumed hands) as all the paperwork matches as does the inscription date.

However I wouldn't have been confident in this purchase without the advice of you Dashiell.

The Russian watch world is difficult to decipher and I am very thankful to everyone here on F10.

Basically, if you have any doubt don't be afraid to ask. This is by far my favorite subforum here due solely to the amazing community!









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Avidfan

GuiHD said:


> What do you think? Is the watch original? And what about the non moving bezel?


Probably is franken, with the caveat that after the end of the USSR Vostok assembled all sorts of unlikely combinations of Soviet-era parts.

With a round 020 case you would expect to see a 2409A movement (which you have) and separate anti-magnetic shield, there is no reason for a built-in shield to be fitted on a watch with a 2409A movement, as comrade schnurrp states that was usually used with the 2416b.

As for the bezel, take it off and clean out all the gunk, if that doesn't work then you need to slightly straighten the angles on the bezel wire until you get the correct fit.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Dub Rubb said:


> I agree with this, especially the "in general" part. I am still confident that my Poljot watch is original (with unlumed hands) as all the paperwork matches as does the inscription date.
> 
> However I wouldn't have been confident in this purchase without the advice of you Dashiell.
> 
> The Russian watch world is difficult to decipher and I am very thankful to everyone here on F10.
> 
> Basically, if you have any doubt don't be afraid to ask. This is by far my favorite subforum here due solely to the amazing community!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


I think it's possible that the hour dots were added for color and are not luminous.....are they? If they are still luminous then non-lumed hands do not make any sense and I would remain suspicious and probably not be interested.

I was able to find a couple similar ones from a 1977 catalog. Notice what appear to me to be green dots.















It appears they forgot to finish the hands on the first example before photographing!


----------



## Kamburov

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> It appears they forgot to finish the hands on the first example before photographing!


 ... well, that, and what's with the clockwise rotated movement in the second sample? Forgot the remontoir? Must've been a hell of a photoshoot!
Ivan


----------



## Bostok

Bostok said:


> Anybody has one of these or more relevant information on this watch? Quite curiously, I don't seem to find another example beside the catalogue image, is this a rather rare model or just a random coincidence?





schnurrp said:


> I've not seen that one before but looks authentic when compared to the catalog picture. Nice catch!





mroatman said:


> I've never seen any image other than the catalog excerpt you attached. First time ever seeing that watch in the flesh.
> 
> My advice: buy buy buy!


This is quite intriguing and I'm very happy to present you:

The Vostok Anomaly 

The crown it's not original but the rest is quite interesting, a quick photo in original state (didn't cleaned it at all but looks deffinitely nicer irl) : 
-the dial is quite nice and well preserved, the painted circle colour is pale green
-i'm not familliar with this case, it's quite different from the other Vostok I have, thinner, seems lighter and the crystal is definitely larger in diameter 
-hands seem original, I think I already saw this kind of set on other models ?
-it has a nicely decorated 2209 that seems fully functional

Finally, why do you think this particular model never ''showed'' up before? :think:

Any opinions are most welcome and I'll happily answer any questions/post more photos if interested


----------



## mroatman

Bostok said:


> This is quite intriguing and I'm very happy to present you:
> The Vostok Anomaly


Spectacular. Rarer than any Strela I've ever seen.



Bostok said:


> -i'm not familliar with this case, it's quite different from the other Vostok I have, thinner, seems lighter and the crystal is definitely larger in diameter
> -hands seem original, I think I already saw this kind of set on other models ?
> -it has a nicely decorated 2209 that seems fully functional


The case is the standard "Mir" (caliber 2209) case. Nothing special about that. The hands, too, seem pretty standard. For this watch, it's all about the dial.



Bostok said:


> Finally, why do you think this particular model never ''showed'' up before? :think:


Some watches were just not as popular or widely-produced as others. I think that's all we can say.



Bostok said:


> I'll happily answer any questions


Thinking of selling?? ???


----------



## SennaGTS

How about this Luch?


----------



## Bostok

mroatman said:


> Spectacular. Rarer than any Strela I've ever seen.
> 
> The case is the standard "Mir" (caliber 2209) case. Nothing special about that. The hands, too, seem pretty standard. For this watch, it's all about the dial.
> 
> Some watches were just not as popular or widely-produced as others. I think that's all we can say.
> 
> Thinking of selling?? 


Thank you for your input, no way I'm selling this watch, I have (kinda had from the beggining) better plans for it


----------



## 24h

Any idea about this one? Claims to be from the 60s...great condition if it is.
From my understanding, 2209 movements stamped with "SU" are from the late 60s to 1990. Could be a replacement which I guess is OK.
What about the rest of the watch?


----------



## haha

> Any idea about this one? Claims to be from the 60s...great condition if it is.
> From my understanding, 2209 movements stamped with "SU" are from the late 60s to 1990. Could be a replacement which I guess is OK.
> What about the rest of the watch?


It's not that old. It appears in a 1979 catalogue. The hands are not original.


----------



## 24h

haha said:


> It's not that old. It appears in a 1979 catalogue. The hands are not original.


Hmm, he said the hands are original. I wonder what else is wrong...


----------



## haha

Here's the catalogue. You can see what seems to be your watch on the right. The hands look similar but the lume is different. Yours probably come from a Komandirskie.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear my friends,

I bought this Kirovskie watch yesterday from the local seller. I post some photos about this watch.
Please tell me this watch is original or franken.
Thank you very much.


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear my friends,
> 
> I bought this Kirovskie watch yesterday from the local seller. I post some photos about this watch.
> Please tell me this watch is original or franken.
> Thank you very much.


I was going to say an arrow head second hand would be preferable before I saw the catalog entry below. As to the gold case I don't read Cyrillic enough to know. May need to be chrome-plated but shape appears correct as is the movement.


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> I don't read Cyrillic


It says there's a golden inner circle on the dial, and all the rest is as entry ЧН-668К in the catalogue. Which apparently is chrome plated with a stainless steel case back, as you suggested.
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> It says there's a golden inner circle on the dial, and all the rest is as entry ЧН-668К in the catalogue. Which apparently is chrome plated with a stainless steel case back, as you suggested.
> Ivan


Thanks for that, Ivan. I would consider buying at the right price as a gold case version is not out of the question and it's so hard to find a gold case like that with the correct crown.


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> ...a gold case version is not out of the question and it's so hard to find a gold case like that with the correct crown.


Agree on that. As I mentioned before, in my part of town tons of perfectly good gold cases are being cut and melted for it's gold content. Auction sites here are full of mint condition movements without cases. I'm in the hunt for at least 3-4 gold cases of that time period. Which is a shame, really.
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Agree on that. As I mentioned before, in my part of town tons of perfectly good gold cases are being cut and melted for it's gold content. Auction sites here are full of mint condition movements without cases. I'm in the hunt for at least 3-4 gold cases of that time period. Which is a shame, really.
> Ivan


This has been going on ever since I started collecting.


----------



## SennaGTS

SennaGTS said:


> How about this Luch?
> 
> View attachment 12982623
> 
> 
> View attachment 12982625
> 
> 
> View attachment 12982629


No idea on this one? I feel like it could be a repainted dial. I couldn't find anything similar in Dashiell's collection, nor could I find the same on Google images.


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> How about this Luch?





SennaGTS said:


> No idea on this one? I feel like it could be a repainted dial. I couldn't find anything similar in Dashiell's collection, nor could I find the same on Google images.


It looks original to me. Luch also produced this split-level dial style in blue.









I believe the hands should match the case color (i.e. the one you posted looks good, while the middle one above does not).


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear my friends,
> I bought this Kirovskie watch yesterday from the local seller. I post some photos about this watch.
> Please tell me this watch is original or franken.
> Thank you very much





schnurrp said:


> I was going to say an arrow head second hand would be preferable before I saw the catalog entry below. As to the gold case I don't read Cyrillic enough to know. May need to be chrome-plated but shape appears correct as is the movement.





Kamburov said:


> It says there's a golden inner circle on the dial, and all the rest is as entry ЧН-668К in the catalogue. Which apparently is chrome plated with a stainless steel case back, as you suggested.
> Ivan


Without too much effort, one can locate both the chrome and gold-plated versions of all the well-known Kirovskies (including the Sputnik).

Together with the old-style "Золото 20µ" stamp not found on later gold-plated cases, this tells me that these are authentic cases/watches that date to the late-50s or early-60s -- even without catalog representation.

For just a few of the many examples, see the collage below, gold on top, chrome on bottom.


----------



## Mercs

I see an eBay seller with what appears to be many Vostok with phony dials. I have attached one example for confirmation. Please share your thoughts









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bpmurray

Mercs said:


> I see an eBay seller with what appears to be many Vostok with phony dials. I have attached one example for confirmation. Please share your thoughts
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's Amil/Marina. They used to post actively on the forum, but I haven't seen them around lately. I can't comment on this watch specifically, and I haven't bought from them, but I believe that they usually will openly state whether or not any part of a watch is not original, for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162954324615


----------



## schnurrp

Mercs said:


> I see an eBay seller with what appears to be many Vostok with phony dials. I have attached one example for confirmation. Please share your thoughts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This seller has many Vostoks, for sure, but I'm not sure it's appropriate to describe "many of them" as "phony". I get the feeling that what you see from this seller is basically what he's found and any conclusions as to authenticity is up to you. I don't believe he's one of the dreaded frankenmeister constructors we all wish would disappear, though.

That having been said, that one looks suspicious to me. First, the numerals are not consistent in line size and look hand-painted (notice "0" in the "10"). Second, There's no minute track! Other than that, the rest of the dial/hands/case look like they should. Here's a good online collection with a lot of Vostok komandirskies you could search: Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website.

Maybe someone else has one identical to share.

Forgot to mention that this seller also has many authentic offerings but you have to know what you're looking for and be prepared to do some servicing of the movement since proper function is not guaranteed (although they often do work fine).


----------



## schnurrp

bpmurray said:


> That's Amil/Marina. They used to post actively on the forum, but I haven't seen them around lately. I can't comment on this watch specifically, and I haven't bought from them, but I believe that they usually will openly state whether or not any part of a watch is not original, for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162954324615
> 
> View attachment 12986983


Yes, that's right, he's one of the few that do this or may use the term "homage". I've bought several from amil with no problems. Good place to get parts movement/dials at one time.


----------



## Neruda

Very curious komandirskie - if the dial isn't a fake, could it just be a factory prototype? The lume dots look 100% Vostok, certainly not one of the Chinese copies.


----------



## Mercs

schnurrp said:


> This seller has many Vostoks, for sure, but I'm not sure it's appropriate to describe "many of them" as "phony". I get the feeling that what you see from this seller is basically what he's found and any conclusions as to authenticity is up to you. I don't believe he's one of the dreaded frankenmeister constructors we all wish would disappear, though.
> 
> That having been said, that one looks suspicious to me. First, the numerals are not consistent in line size and look hand-painted (notice "0" in the "10"). Second, There's no minute track! Other than that, the rest of the dial/hands/case look like they should. Here's a good online collection with a lot of Vostok komandirskies you could search: Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website.
> 
> Maybe someone else has one identical to share.
> 
> Forgot to mention that this seller also has many authentic offerings but you have to know what you're looking for and be prepared to do some servicing of the movement since proper function is not guaranteed (although they often do work fine).


Here is a verified authentic one. I'm not an expert, so given the benefit of the doubt it could be a variant. One sure has to have an eye for detail buying Russian watches.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mercs

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> This seller has many Vostoks, for sure, but I'm not sure it's appropriate to describe "many of them" as "phony". I get the feeling that what you see from this seller is basically what he's found and any conclusions as to authenticity is up to you.


First off, I understand you have good intentions by saying this, but I was purposefully being gentle in saying "appear to be" phony dials. On the other hand, I do not have any respect for people that will sell a vintage watch with reproduced dials, with no indication of that to the buyer. I think as a seller (and I am one on eBay also) you MUST know what you are selling, otherwise you MUST put a disclaimer in the description. Can you imagine explaining to authorities that you didn't know an item had Ivory in it, for example?

Here's another one from the same seller, and like I said I have seen several offered by him. I can go on and on with examples, if time weren't a factor. I can tell you 100% this is a phony dial made by someone with the intention of fooling a buyer, and thereby extracting money from them in an unscrupulous manner. Do you know how I can tell?








Edit: there were 20,000 of these made for a special order in the 90's, and the dial was designed in USA. Very unique. Trying to sell a fake one of these is flat out disgusting to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Arizone

bpmurray said:


> That's Amil/Marina. They used to post actively on the forum, but I haven't seen them around lately. I can't comment on this watch specifically, and I haven't bought from them, but I believe that they usually will openly state whether or not any part of a watch is not original, for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162954324615
> 
> View attachment 12986983


I believe she may have been banned again, typically because of self-advertising, disrespect, or other rules being broken again. While still an invaluable resource her offerings seem to have gotten more suspicious lately combining parts haphazardly. You know what you're getting, thankfully, but it's disappointing to see new-style hands, in particular, being placed on absolutely everything.


----------



## bpmurray

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Arizone said:


> I believe she may have been banned again, typically because of self-advertising, disrespect, or other rules being broken again. While still an invaluable resource her offerings seem to have gotten more suspicious lately combining parts haphazardly. You know what you're getting, thankfully, but it's disappointing to see new-style hands, in particular, being placed on absolutely everything.


Thanks. I didn't want to rehash his/her/their history here, because I don't want my personal feelings about unrelated discussions to influence whether or not someone else should buy through them.



Mercs said:


> First off, I understand you have good intentions by saying this, but I was purposefully being gentle in saying "appear to be" phony dials. On the other hand, I do not have any respect for people that will sell a vintage watch with reproduced dials, with no indication of that to the buyer. I think as a seller (and I am one on eBay also) you MUST know what you are selling, otherwise you MUST put a disclaimer in the description. Can you imagine explaining to authorities that you didn't know an item had Ivory in it, for example?
> 
> Here's another one from the same seller, and like I said I have seen several offered by him. I can go on and on with examples, if time weren't a factor. I can tell you 100% this is a phony dial made by someone with the intention of fooling a buyer, and thereby extracting money from them in an unscrupulous manner. Do you know how I can tell?
> Edit: there were only 20,000 of these made total. Trying to sell a fake one of these is flat out disgusting to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I certainly agree with you in this particular case, but in a field like Soviet watches, I don't expect a guarantee of authenticity, as it is essentially an impossible standard. Many sellers aren't going to spend hours and hours combing through forums and catalogs to try to verify exact details, or alternatively, every seller is going to throw up a boilerplate disclaimer stating that they can't be held responsible for any parts later discovered not to be authentic. Take, for example, my 24h Raketa:









One could say this is "franken" as the seconds hand is silver, and not red. However, I have the original box and papers:









So, what is to be done? Given its condition, I don't expect the seller to have even noticed that detail, and if he did, it's a very reasonable assumption that all parts are authentic but the paint degraded, or it was a factory error in not painting the hand.

I again agree that if the seller themselves made a modification, or if there is something clearly wrong, they must identify it to be ethical. But I think your standard of "you MUST know what you are selling" is unduly harsh and impractical; I just care that a good-faith effort was made.


----------



## Neruda

While the original Desert Shields were commissioned by a US company called Timepeace, and have a special caseback with onion domes, the Desert Shield dial seems to have been popular in Russia itself. I've seen examples with documentation as late as the early 2000s, and the smaller Desert Shield/Desert Storm cadet version is (or at least was until very recently) available new from Moscow. The watch posted by Mercs has the new style hands which I believe were introduced in the late 1990s - and these may well be added - but I can't see what is obviously fake about the dial.


----------



## Mercs

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Neruda said:


> While the original Desert Shields were commissioned by a US company called Timepeace, and have a special caseback with onion domes, the Desert Shield dial seems to have been popular in Russia itself. I've seen examples with documentation as late as the early 2000s, and the smaller Desert Shield/Desert Storm cadet version is (or at least was until very recently) available new from Moscow. The watch posted by Mercs has the new style hands which I believe were introduced in the late 1990s - and these may well be added - but I can't see what is obviously fake about the dial.


If you can't see it, you'd better be very careful treading on eBay. There are better fakes than this one.

Edit: Frankens are what they are, and I have no issues with those. Some are actually very cool and unique. I'm talking about fake, phony, and worthless now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mercs

Here again I'll post a real one to compare to the dime-store fake being offered by the seller in question. I think you'll see it now 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## system11

Is this one standard? I should add that I decided at the offer he took that it's a "3133 with a cool dial" even if it's not real. Has serial 004/700 on the back.


----------



## Kamburov

In the little documented sources with authentic ones, I've seen the "made" in "made in ussr" covering three minute marks. I was never sure if the "made" covering two minute lines is authentic or reissue of some kind. Hope someone share his knowledge. That's mine little treasure I got recently.
Ivan


----------



## bpmurray

Mercs said:


> Here again I'll post a real one to compare to the dime-store fake being offered by the seller in question. I think you'll see it now
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think the dial is a fake, just not one of the original 20,000 made available to US soldiers. It appears that Vostok continued manufacturing several varieties of these dials for many years past that initial run, and they can be found in nearly all case types. I'm not an expert, but I don't see any indication that the dial in question was made anywhere other than Chistopol.


----------



## Neruda

Mercs, or anyone - do please tell me what I'm missing! I've spent 15 minutes looking at this dial and I'm obviously overlooking something.

Thanks!


----------



## bpmurray

Neruda said:


> Mercs, or anyone - do please tell me what I'm missing! I've spent 15 minutes looking at this dial and I'm obviously overlooking something.
> 
> Thanks!


Amil's watch has the Vostok "B" between 4 and 5 -- the original version he posted did not. However, I think this is just a later production run by the factory.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Arizone said:


> I can tell you 100% this is a phony dial made by someone with the intention of fooling a buyer, and thereby extracting money from them in an unscrupulous manner. Do you know how I can tell?


No, I don't know how you can tell. Please educate us.

Does this mean all watches below are counterfeit, in your view?


----------



## mroatman

bpmurray said:


> That's Amil/Marina. They used to post actively on the forum, but I haven't seen them around lately.





Arizone said:


> I believe she may have been banned again.


Righto.


----------



## Kamburov

bpmurray said:


> I don't think the dial is a fake, just not one of the original 20,000 made available to US soldiers. It appears that Vostok continued manufacturing several varieties of these dials for many years past that initial run, and they can be found in nearly all case types. I'm not an expert, but I don't see any indication that the dial in question was made anywhere other than Chistopol.


Thanks, bpmurray, that answers my question.
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Mercs said:


> Here again I'll post a real one to compare to the dime-store fake being offered by the seller in question. I think you'll see it now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've never collected these but the only difference I can see between the two and Michele's example is the green color. How did amil describe his?


----------



## Bostok

I personally don’t see the fake attributes either, but it might be that everyone went blind just looking at that Specnaz beauty that slipped between…


----------



## schnurrp

Could it be the Vostok "B" logo? I always thought that was an authentic variation.

The Specnaz is one of those Russian 3133s that will never be decided on one way or another unless another one or two show up other collections.


----------



## Mercs

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mroatman said:


> No, I don't know how you can tell. Please educate us.
> 
> Does this mean all watches below are counterfeit, in your view?
> 
> View attachment 12987851


I was actually waiting for your input, you know much more than I about these. I can only speak to the dials, and when the printing isn't right. Look at the alignment. Also, many of those U posted do look faked. I know baby ones are the only ones that say desert shield desert storm, and that there's automatic and manual variants. However the dial design was not altered by Vostok as far as I know. There's only one real design for the baby and the regular size. The regular size should have the ring around it and everything should line up true. Look at where the palm meets the flag borders. Look at where the swords sit on the ring. Whoever stamped the first one I posted, missed a little high with the palm


----------



## Neruda

The originals imported by TimePeace appear to have been in two batches, distinguished by their casebacks. One, the first I think, is marked Vostok and Series 1, the second is marked Vremir. Both have the onion domes. Other caseback versions seem to have been produced for the Russian market through to at least the early 2000s. These are completely genuine in that they were made and sold by Vostok, Chistopol, but I agree they are not part of the United States offering.

The earliest dials, I believe, don't have the B logo at 4.30. The version with the B logo was presumably introduced early on as some are marked "made in USSR". I wonder if this variation corresponds to the two different casebacks, but I'm not certain!


----------



## mariomart

How about this one?

A no-date version Desert Shield 

I have had this floating around in my parts tray for a few years due to it's condition being a bit of a let down, but I always thought it was a little bit special being a no-date version so it never got binned.


----------



## Kamburov

Mario, check this out 








To be honest my first reaction was to scroll up and lok for it in Dashiell's watchpedia 
Ivan


----------



## mariomart

Kamburov said:


> Mario, check this out
> 
> To be honest my first reaction was to scroll up and lok for it in Dashiell's watchpedia
> Ivan


Thanks for that Ivan 

I noticed that the dial I have does not have any minute track markings and looks like it was possibly designed to fit into a Komandirskie Cadet or Junior case.


----------



## Patatoo

Sooo what'd be the consensus on this one? I was gonna say franken for having the no-date dial (does it come from a modern re-issue?) on an older style case, *but *I've jut noticed that @MrOatman has the same one on a chromed case and different bezel... Woah this thread is truly turning into an "Operation Desert Shield" database!


----------



## Mercs

mariomart said:


> How about this one?
> 
> A no-date version Desert Shield
> 
> I have had this floating around in my parts tray for a few years due to it's condition being a bit of a let down, but I always thought it was a little bit special being a no-date version so it never got binned.
> 
> View attachment 12988135


The Lume is literally on top of the numbers in some places

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mercs

Patatoo said:


> Sooo what'd be the consensus on this one? I was gonna say franken for having the no-date dial (does it come from a modern re-issue?) on an older style case, *but *I've jut noticed that @MrOatman has the same one on a chromed case and different bezel... Woah this thread is truly turning into an "Operation Desert Shield" database!
> 
> View attachment 12988229
> 
> 
> View attachment 12988235
> 
> 
> View attachment 12988239


Apparently this one wasn't "Made in USSR"? I guess the dial looks pretty close otherwise. Has wrong second and hour hands, and wrong case as far as I know.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mercs

Another genuine here









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Neruda

Just to pour a little more petrol on the fire:









Personally I am 99.9% convinced this is a fully authentic franken, perhaps the first to be posted in this exchange. Still, I may be wrong!

The last two examples posted by Mercs both look to be genuine - but neither was part of the original exports to the USA based on the absence of the distinctive casebacks. This is the Series 1 with English language certificate dated March 1991:









There are a number of dial variations with the country of production providing a rough sequence for dating for Vostok watches. "Made in USSR" should indicate the dial was made prior to the end of 1991, although there may be a certain transition period. No "made in" seems to be approx 1992-1995, although on some models this may be later? "Made in Russia" seems to have started in about 1995. Of course the factory may have had older stock of less popular dial models which it continued to use beyond these parameters, but this seems to be an accepted rough guide.


----------



## mroatman

Mercs said:


> I was actually waiting for your input, you know much more than I about these. I can only speak to the dials, and when the printing isn't right. Look at the alignment.


Thanks, but I promise I don't  I haven't spent any time studying the many variations or unique history of these pieces. Honestly, they just don't appeal to me that much.

That said, I generally defer to condition when judging whether something is old/original versus a newly-minted counterfeit. For example, new lume is typically firm, taut, and bright in color, while aged lume can look somewhat tired and sunken. Printing, too, tends to fade, and any track marks on the dial can be indicators of a watch that's been for worn many years.

In this respect, most of the dials discussed here appear genuine to me -- including the one that started it all. But that doesn't mean they were from one of the the original, US-bound batches. I think Neruda is bang-on with his analysis:

_"The originals imported by TimePeace appear to have been in two batches, distinguished by their casebacks. One, the first I think, is marked Vostok and Series 1, the second is marked Vremir. Both have the onion domes. *Other versions seem to have been produced for the Russian market through to at least the early 2000s*. These are completely genuine in that they were made and sold by Vostok, Chistopol, but I agree they are not part of the United States offering."
_
There are some antique shops here in Tallinn which have a number of these NOS cadet-sized Desert Storm models for sale, complete with boxes and original papers. Usually they date from the mid-90s, like this one. I don't fool myself into believing these are original special-order watches, but to me they have all the indicators of genuine Chistopol production. In fact, this model appears in the 1993 catalog.

Of course, it's worth remembering that these watches were produced in a tumultuous period of Soviet watchmaking, when quality control hit rock bottom and watches appear to have been compiled rather haphazardly. This may account for the various printing artifacts, lumeless dials, numerous case/bezel styles, wide array of dial types, and so on.

And you're absolutely right, it's always possible that some 'artels' decided to capitalize on a popular model by making imitations to sell to tourists. Granted. But personally, I think it was _Chistopol itself_ that saw a business opportunity in a unique design, and decided to capitalize on this popular model by producing a dizzying array of "homages" in various case types over the next decade or so -- all authentic Chistopol production, but none quite like the original stock.

So! While I may not agree with your assessment of the first watch (the condition/texture of the lume tells me it's old), I think there's a lot to be learned on this topic, so thanks for opening this can of worms ?

From the 1993 domestic and export catalog (and certainly not exclusive to the US market):


----------



## schnurrp

I think it's unlikely that any dial with a faded flag is a replacement. I would be looking for uniform lume dots, etc. My information is that these dials were put in every conceivable Vostok dive-style watch of the time.

Finally found some pictures of a "NOS" example I used to have: a 1990 type 020 2414 version bought in 2012.


----------



## Mercs

Neruda said:


> Just to pour a little more petrol on the fire:
> 
> View attachment 12988609
> 
> 
> Personally I am 99.9% convinced this is a fully authentic franken, perhaps the first to be posted in this exchange. Still, I may be wrong!
> 
> The last two examples posted by Mercs both look to be genuine - but neither was part of the original exports to the USA based on the absence of the distinctive casebacks. This is the Series 1 with English language certificate dated March 1991:
> 
> View attachment 12988669
> 
> 
> There are a number of dial variations with the country of production providing a rough sequence for dating for Vostok watches. "Made in USSR" should indicate the dial was made prior to the end of 1991, although there may be a certain transition period. No "made in" seems to be approx 1992-1995, although on some models this may be later? "Made in Russia" seems to have started in about 1995. Of course the factory may have had older stock of less popular dial models which it continued to use beyond these parameters, but this seems to be an accepted rough guide.


That does look like a genuine baby version dial. I really like the look of that watch as a whole. That's what I mean when I say some Frankens look cool. I definitely appreciate all the input on this topic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mercs

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> I think it's unlikely that any dial with a faded flag is a replacement. I would be looking for uniform lume dots, etc. My information is that these dials were put in every conceivable Vostok dive-style watch of the time.
> 
> Finally found some pictures of a "NOS" example I used to have: a 1990 type 020 2414 version bought in 2012.
> 
> View attachment 12989457
> View attachment 12989461
> 
> View attachment 12989459


That's a very nice looking one. I notice on all examples of authentic ones, the details all line up perfectly though. The palm ends sharply at the flag border, swords sit right on the ring, etc. Also the dial design does not vary, except for Boktok logo placement. I'm thinking that the way these were originally made, it would've been impossible for one element of the dial detail to be off-centered like the ones on eBay

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Mercs said:


> That's a very nice looking one. I notice on all examples of authentic ones, the details all line up perfectly though. The palm ends sharply at the flag border, swords sit right on the ring, etc. Also the dial design does not vary, except for Boktok logo placement. I'm thinking that the way these were originally made, it would've been impossible for one element of the dial detail to be off-centered like the ones on eBay
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not sure about the "swords touching" test for authenticity and as you can see the one I used to own had swords comfortably clearing the central circle, but the color and shape of the lume dots are consistent with a Vostok dial from this time period and I'm comfortable with "authentic" for that one.


----------



## Mercs

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> I'm not sure about the "swords touching" test for authenticity and as you can see the one I used to own had swords comfortably clearing the central circle, but the color and shape of the lume dots are consistent with a Vostok dial from this time period and I'm comfortable with "authentic" for that one.


I know what u mean because yours looks 100% legit to me, the swords don't touch but they are perfectly aligned to everything else. Look your palm ends right on the flag borders perfectly on top and bottom. The swords are not as thick as some of the ones that touch the ring is all. Probably just the die running low on ink. If it was a but thicker it would touch. I still maintain everything has to line up such as on yours and others we've seen with papers

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avidfan

Not seen a fake Desert Shield in this thread as yet, genuine watches from various eras of Vostok production but all the real thing.

Misaligned printing on Vostok dials is not unusual and is no way to determine authenticity IMHO, the more colours on a dial the more chances of misalignment as the colours would have been put on one at a time on the white base paint.


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## Patski

I have an interrogation in mind... To have a franken Let's say Amphibian you have to have a fake dial or the wrong needles? 

I mean you can order an Amphibian from Meranom and let's say a Komandirskie Dial and they can install it for you at the factory, so basically, any combinations are authentic as they can do it for you if you pay a little extra? 

Even needles they can change if you buy the ones you want...

Envoyé de mon Moto X Play en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Kye752

Patski said:


> I have an interrogation in mind... To have a franken Let's say Amphibian you have to have a fake dial or the wrong needles?
> 
> I mean you can order an Amphibian from Meranom and let's say a Komandirskie Dial and they can install it for you at the factory, so basically, any combinations are authentic as they can do it for you if you pay a little extra?
> 
> Even needles they can change if you buy the ones you want...
> 
> Envoyé de mon Moto X Play en utilisant Tapatalk


That would mean it isnt the same as it was originally intended to be released which they call modded but yes essentially making it franken but you mod it for your own personal preference so you wouldnt mind as much. If you were looking for a specific vintage watch with the wrong case/hands then its franken and not correct to catalogs or documentation


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Mercs said:


> yours looks 100% legit to me, the swords don't touch but they are perfectly aligned to everything else. Look your palm ends right on the flag borders perfectly on top and bottom.....I still maintain everything has to line up such as on yours and others we've seen with papers


Like Avidfan says, I think it helps to remember how these dials were produced, using pad printers, one color at a time. So if the dial was offset or accidentally bumped even .5mm, the alignment of the graphics would appear "off".

This pad printing process, highly subject to human fallibility, is how we end up with strange things like off-center Komandirskie stars or upside-down Sputnik globes -- imperfections which don't necessary imply counterfeiting, especially at a time when Vostok quality control is widely-aknowledged to have been very poor.


----------



## Neruda

Patski - my mod is your franken. Or vice versa... I hope history is kind to my watches, but I fear in twenty years the experts will tear them to pieces.

Generally frankens are older, vintage watches which have been assembled from parts which did not originally belong together. Perhaps you have two watches, one with a good case but bad movement and the other with a good movement but a bad case. Swap the parts and you end up with one nice-looking functional watch. Problem is one watch might date from 1980 and the other from 1990 and there are minor differences, but all important to the collector.

More insidious are attempts to make a more "interesting" or "rare" watch with the intention of selling it for a higher price.


----------



## schnurrp

Avidfan said:


> Not seen a fake Desert Shield in this thread as yet, genuine watches from various eras of Vostok production but all the real thing.
> 
> Misaligned printing on Vostok dials is not unusual and is no way to determine authenticity IMHO, the more colours on a dial the more chances of misalignment as the colours would have been put on one at a time on the white base paint.


I agree.


----------



## Patski

So basically, Franken applies mostly to old watches refurbished? And specially given the years movements have been used, you can get a 1970's movement (including different dials and needles) in a 1990's case, or even different brand movements in different brand case, like let's say a Zim movement in a Pobeda watch? That was a good explanation! Thanks!

Envoyé de mon Moto X Play en utilisant Tapatalk


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## schnurrp

Patski said:


> So basically, Franken applies mostly to old watches refurbished? And specially given the years movements have been used, you can get a 1970's movement (including different dials and needles) in a 1990's case, or even different brand movements in different brand case, like let's say a Zim movement in a Pobeda watch? That was a good explanation! Thanks!
> 
> Envoyé de mon Moto X Play en utilisant Tapatalk


I think the term is usually applied to older vintage watches but there's no reason why you can't have a modern one using the simple definition that if it didn't leave the factory like that it's a franken.


----------



## Patski

Thanks for the explanation!


----------



## Luis965

What do you think about this one?


----------



## Patski

Let's see if I'm getting better at this... I've seen 2 kinds of second hands on these, and I honestly don't know which one is good but I find it weird that the main hands have lume and not the second, The back cover isn't really like the ones I've seen up in this thread and well... I've never seen that bezel before?

So I would say Franken (the dial looks brand new as well)


----------



## Kamburov

I'm beginning to wonder, are there ANY franken desert shield at all? 
Wait a minute, the alignment of that palm tree...








Lol965, never seen a komandirskie version, very nice!
Ivan


----------



## Avidfan

Patski said:


> Let's see if I'm getting better at this... I've seen 2 kinds of second hands on these, and I honestly don't know which one is good but I find it weird that the main hands have lume and not the second, The back cover isn't really like the ones I've seen up in this thread and well... I've never seen that bezel before?
> 
> So I would say Franken (the dial looks brand new as well)


Perfectly genuine automatic komandirskie in a type 52 case.


----------



## Patski

Avidfan said:


> Perfectly genuine automatic komandirskie in a type 52 case.


 I guess I have alot to learn....


----------



## Neruda

I agree with Avidfan, there's one shown on the database thread which appears to have documentation for October 1992.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-classification-database-draft-424915-6.html


----------



## mroatman

Lol965 said:


> What do you think about this one?





Avidfan said:


> Perfectly genuine automatic komandirskie in a type 52 case.





Neruda said:


> I agree with Avidfan, there's one shown on the database thread which appears to have documentation for October 1992.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-classification-database-draft-424915-6.html


I completely agree as well, only I would call it a Generalskie.


----------



## Mercs

Lol965 said:


> What do you think about this one?


The date is wrong...jk!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mercs

Sorry for opening a can of worms with the desert shield dial debacle.

Here's a good one, let's see what's wrong with this picture. I also included the description for reference

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Patski

No worries! I'm here to learn! And I learn something new every day! I've never seen that dial, but I certainly haven't seen all dials...

I would say that the printing is very bad on this one, the red star isn't centered, the black markers around the dial have different thickness and the greenish yellowish stripes are too long and look like they bleeded at the bottom...


----------



## mroatman

Mercs said:


> Here's a good one, let's see what's wrong with this picture.


To my eyes, this dial appears to be authentic Chistopol production.


----------



## Patski

I honestly don't know, but I found something similar, but different color, and way better marking... I might have the fake dial tho


----------



## Patski

This one


----------



## Kamburov

The tension is unbearable 
I have a few of these vostoks, and solving these riddles make me feel like on a high school exam. Can anyone with expert knowledge just post some fakes that don't look like fakes and point out why they are fakes. Refreshing this page gets the better of me. I'm lost here 
Ivan


----------



## Patski

I can't find a catalog quickly, but if the dial is real, it is specified that the watch is from the 90's and this dial looks way older than this, 90's dials are better printed than that... That's all I can see, and I can't identify this case


----------



## Mercs

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

I honestly don't know for sure but I think the dial is real, but has been badly messed with. I see the star has been possibly repainted and also is askew on the dial. It's too high. Looks like all the markers were removed and shoddily put back in at some point (possibly replaced?). You can see where they are off in places.

Edit: I think that entire dial may have been touched up. It looks like it was at least gone over to embolden the graphics. Please don't crucify me

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mercs

The real one appears to have different markers, if I'm not mistaken









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Neruda

Patski - here is your first artillery watch from the 1993 Vostok catalogue. Except the barrels of the canons are longer! If anyone can explain why that change was made, they will earn my eternal gratitude...


----------



## Luis965

Thanks for your comments:

To me, it is also an Automatic Komandirskie in case 52. One of the 3 variants of automatic Komamdirskies. The other two are the Generalskie and the Komandirskie in 920 case:


----------



## steve_AU

schnurrp said:


> I think the term is usually applied to older vintage watches but there's no reason why you can't have a modern one using the simple definition that if it didn't leave the factory like that it's a franken.


But what about mod watches, I think the definition of franken is more along the lines of intent to deceive, frankens generally are an attempt to deceive the buyer. Where as mods are done to personalize a watch. I guess there is a grey line and one mans mod is another mans franken. I think mods are generally very cool, some of the amphibia mods on this group are so cool they are sub zero.


----------



## mariomart

Neruda said:


> Patski - here is your first artillery watch from the 1993 Vostok catalogue. Except the barrels of the canons are longer! If anyone can explain why that change was made, they will earn my eternal gratitude...


My best guess is that due to the stamped features on the dial, which increases the dial height, the hands require a higher clearance height so that they do not make contact with these features. The minute hand is the most at risk of being fouled by the stamped features.


----------



## Kamburov

I'll add mine off-center star dial, that I can swear I've seen it on a couple of other occasions. Nevermind the missing tension ring (waiting for crystal replacement), and the orange/green relumed dial (I've been doing some lume experiments lately). That star is at least 1mm off center. 
I guess there are so many chistopol produced dials that no one will bother fake them.
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> Patski - here is your first artillery watch from the 1993 Vostok catalogue. Except the barrels of the canons are longer! If anyone can explain why that change was made, they will earn my eternal gratitude...
> 
> View attachment 12991251


I don't think the cannons are longer, they just cross closer to the back end of the cannons.


----------



## Avidfan

Kamburov said:


> I guess there are so many chistopol produced dials that no one will bother fake them.


There are plenty of fake Vostok dials around, we just haven't seen one yet! :-d


----------



## Straight_time

Avidfan said:


> There are plenty of fake Vostok dials around, we just haven't seen one yet! :-d


+1

For some strange reason I can't visualize some of the images posted, but among those I saw until now I still have to meet an _authentically counterfeit_ -d ) dial...
They all look rather evidently genuine Vostoks to my eye, and also I don't think to have ever seen a fake of any of these designs - those which are well known to have been recently counterfeited are other styles, i.e. Amphibias in tonneau case or Komandirskies "Chistopol".


----------



## Neruda

There are plenty of fakes around - these for example probably originated in Hong Kong in the 1990s.....


----------



## Kamburov

Totally forgot about the chinese fakes, and I've binned some. No feet dials, taped to the movement.
Ivan


----------



## mroatman

Avidfan said:


> There are plenty of fake Vostok dials around, we just haven't seen one yet! :-d


Exactly. It is good to think critically about dials before a purchase, but I'm afraid we're going overboard here.

Legitimate printing, straight from the factory, was imperfect. Examples abound.

View attachment collage.jpg


We are getting distracted by slight nuances in genuine Chistopol production while the counterfeit mills churn out millions of newly-minted knockoff dials (see Straight_time's examples above, or basically all of this thread).

Again, I think it's important to focus on _condition_ to determine the age of the dial (just look at the lume!), rather than printing inaccuracies, especially for late-Soviet and 1990s production.


----------



## Kamburov

mroatman said:


> ...I'm afraid we're going overboard here.


Hence my "I'm lost here" comment last night. Not sure if "looking for a calf under the ox" is the appropriate english expression in this case, but I was waiting for someone with better articulation to bring some closure.
Thank you for taking the time and effort of putting this together in one place, so I can use for reference!
Ivan


----------



## Patski

Yup! Lesson learned!


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> Thank you for taking the time and effort of putting this together in one place, so I can use for reference!





Patski said:


> Yup! Lesson learned!


Don't forget -- like all others, I can be (and often am) wrong.

(Just not in this case ?)


----------



## thewatchadude

I saw the Coca-Cola Komandirskie in the pages above. I bought mine because I found it was a very good yet ironic illustration of what hapened in USSR/Russia around the turn of the century. Happy with it but not wearing it as I haven't found the adequate strap yet.

Nevermind, I was sure it was a hand-winding model until I discovered it was running after few weeks spent in a box. So this is how I found out it is an automatic one, which was confirmed by the shape of the caseback. Due to this caseback I thought it wasn't a franken but a legitimate one, which seems confirmed by the post above.

I would date it from 1994, which I believe is when a Coca-cola plant was opened in Moscow. Is this correct?


----------



## Mercs

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mroatman said:


> Exactly. It is good to think critically about dials before a purchase, but I'm afraid we're going overboard here.
> 
> Legitimate printing, straight from the factory, was imperfect. Examples abound.
> 
> View attachment 12992585
> 
> 
> We are getting distracted by slight nuances in genuine Chistopol production while the counterfeit mills churn out millions of newly-minted knockoff dials (see Straight_time's examples above, or basically all of this thread).
> 
> Again, I think it's important to focus on _condition_ to determine the age of the dial (just look at the lume!), rather than printing inaccuracies, especially for late-Soviet and 1990s production.


Thanks that other thread you linked was a great reference, and I can see what you're talking about with the examples you listed. It's so funny how mysterious these watches can be. I don't know anyone personally that collects these, so it's wonderful to have found this forum with experienced collectors such as yourself to share information!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## momosalah

Can anyone verify this? All looks good to me but would like a second opinion. Such an iconic piece

Thanks in advance guys..


----------



## bpmurray

momosalah said:


> Can anyone verify this? All looks good to me but would like a second opinion. Such an iconic piece
> 
> Thanks in advance guys..


The dial is a fake. It's missing Severnaya Zemlya, and the latitude/longitude lines don't meet properly. Also, the Sputnik on the seconds hand looks small, but that could just be the angle. In any case, the fake dial should be enough to steer clear. For future reference, real one on the left:


----------



## momosalah

bpmurray said:


> The dial is a fake. It's missing Severnaya Zemlya, and the latitude/longitude lines don't meet properly. Also, the Sputnik on the seconds hand looks small, but that could just be the angle. In any case, the fake dial should be enough to steer clear. For future reference, real one on the left:


Very nice catch. Much appreciated man


----------



## Arsonita

I impulsively won this at an auction and I didin't even check if it was legit or not.
I can't find the version of the dial anywhere 
It's probably a franken right? the movement is 2614.2H and the dial has a the coat of arms of Moscow (so touristy).


----------



## mroatman

Arsonita said:


> I impulsively won this at an auction and I didin't even check if it was legit or not.
> I can't find the version of the dial anywhere
> It's probably a franken right? the movement is 2614.2H and the dial has a the coat of arms of Moscow (so touristy).


Looks fine to me, but this watch would have been made well into the 90s (or later), and it's difficult to verify watches from these years. I wouldn't worry about it too much.


----------



## Arsonita

mroatman said:


> Looks fine to me, but this watch would have been made well into the 90s (or later), and it's difficult to verify watches from these years. I wouldn't worry about it too much.


Yeah, the design certainly doesn't have that soviet feel. As long as it is authentic that's all that matters. I bought it for 32 doll hairs + shipping, dunno if it's a good deal or not.
So far I have 3 Russian watches on the way and still no soviet era vintage T_T


----------



## Kamburov

These russian catalogue photoshoots! This time they rotated the watch  That's quick thinking under pressure. 30-40 years later we are discussing the precission of the detail aligment on the dials.
Ivan


----------



## Patatoo

Kamburov said:


> These russian catalogue photoshoots! This time they rotated the watch 🙂 That's quick thinking under pressure. 30-40 years later we are discussing the precission of the detail aligment on the dials.
> Ivan
> View attachment 12994405


YES! When looking through the catalogs trying to ID a certain watch, the amount of rotated dials is astounding! Wonder why, maybe they are "display only" watches with no movement at all?


----------



## Kamburov

Patatoo said:


> YES! When looking through the catalogs trying to ID a certain watch, the amount of rotated dials is astounding! Wonder why, maybe they are "display only" watches with no movement at all?


I'm curious myself. Either no remontoir or/(and?) no movement. But, hey, is it a watch on photo? Yes. Is the watch generally in the center of photo? Yes. So what more do you want? And, by the way, you should all know how a wristwatch looks like, so use your imagination for a change! 
Ivan


----------



## momosalah

Have any of you ever seen this dial? Looks quite interesting...


----------



## mroatman

momosalah said:


> Have any of you ever seen this dial? Looks quite interesting...


Brought to you by:


----------



## GuiHD

GuiHD said:


> I bought this one which reads Antimagnetic on the dial in a round case.
> Is this a franken?
> Also is it common that the bezel is fixed? This one does not move at all.
> One last thing it does not have the antimagnetic shield.
> I paid 22 bucks for it.


I was able to remove the bezel and clean it.

Just for some clarification: (You guys are the experts)

is the movement 2409A? 
is it the original movement? I mean is it from the soviet era or a more modern release?
What is the code of the case? 420? if this is right can I just get a new crystal and bezel from meranom?

Any other thoughts about my particular franken watch?

Thanks for your help.


----------



## GuiHD

GuiHD said:


> I was able to remove the bezel and clean it.
> 
> Just for some clarification: (You guys are the experts)
> 
> is the movement 2409A?
> is it the original movement? I mean is it from the soviet era or a more modern release?
> What is the code of the case? 420? if this is right can I just get a new crystal and bezel from meranom?
> 
> Any other thoughts about my particular franken watch?
> 
> Thanks for your help.


This is the original post with the actual pictures:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-ex...ranken-part-2-a-4514699-122.html#post45546983


----------



## Kamburov

It looked so much like the real deal when I bought it. Unfortunately it's not. 
What I got is a good movement and a good case, they were just not born for each other.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> It looked so much like the real deal when I bought it. Unfortunately it's not.
> What I got is a good movement and a good case, they were just not born for each other.
> View attachment 12996637


Too bad. What jewel count? A slightly smaller case like that is what the 16 jewel version is pictured in and the 21 jewel version is in this case although that dial looks white:


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp,I thought it's this, the same Raketa logotype. The case also looks the same. The problem lies elswere. The way that dial lies in the case is just not right. There's an obvious gap and looks like the whole thing sits higher, and closer to the crystal. My suggestion is that a sub second movement was in this case originaly (2603?). This now is 17j 2609, so I think the movement/dial/hands combo is all good, just moved to another case. But it looks so damn close to that catalogue photo I noticed the problem when I saw it in person.
Ivan

PS: Also my case doesn't have the depression in which the crown fits, as on the catalogue. So, it's defrankenzation project on the way.


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> schnurrp,I thought it's this, the same Raketa logotype. The case also looks the same. The problem lies elswere. The way that dial lies in the case is just not right. There's an obvious gap and looks like the whole thing sits higher, and closer to the crystal. My suggestion is that a sub second movement was in this case originaly (2603?). This now is 17j 2609, so I think the movement/dial/hands combo is all good, just moved to another case. But it looks so damn close to that catalogue photo I noticed the problem when I saw it in person.
> Ivan
> 
> PS: Also my case doesn't have the depression in which the crown fits, as on the catalogue. So, it's defrankenzation project on the way.


For this watch, you'll need to look for a case with a case-back that takes up almost the entire rear of the case, as below. This case type (65x) was indeed slightly smaller than those designed for sub-second movements.









A crown notch is not a requirement for authenticity, in my opinion.


----------



## Kamburov

That's exactly what I was looking for! Not too many case back photos in those catalogues  Yes, that one is with the small case back, as my sub second ones, and that started the alarm. Now I add another gold plated case to the scouting list.
Thank you very much, Dashiell!
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

Finally found it  No movement photos. I already have a similar model, but this one looks like the exact same model as Mario's and Dashiell's. Looks ok to me, and I will take a leap of faith (alreday ordered it), but any warnings will be appreciated.
Ivan


----------



## Patski

Mystery of my day! My own Poljot 2609.

I have found the case on numerous 70's Poljot, but the dial is a mystery to me... And well, no matter how long I leave those under the sun, I can't get a glow of it...Radium? Here's my watch with brand new Barton canvas and the other one is the same dial in another case...


----------



## Patski

Actually it doesn't faintly glows... So just very old lume


----------



## Kamburov

Patski said:


> ...So just very old lume


That greenish poljot lume is quite weak. There's one of my sceduled for repairs poljot alarm, with lume from approximately the same time period. I didn't even realise it's lume untill I used a really strong light source. And even then it stays for a few seconds only.
Ivan


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> Finally found it  No movement photos. I already have a similar model, but this one looks like the exact same model as Mario's and Dashiell's. Looks ok to me, and I will take a leap of faith (alreday ordered it), but any warnings will be appreciated.
> Ivan


Looks a-okay to me. Congrats


----------



## Kamburov

mroatman said:


> Looks a-okay to me. Congrats


And the best part of the story is that the seller actually called me on the phone later in the day. Turns out he's a collector and we spent half an hour on the phone talking watches. Apparently he was very surprised of the absense of attention to his add as the watch is quite rare in his opinion. Very nice guy, it's a pleasure dealing with people like that.

I picked a Kirovskie from his collection for my next purchase, but can't find it in the catalogues I have. If anyone can offer any reference info I'll be very grateful. That's the one


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> And the best part of the story is that the seller actually called me on the phone later in the day. Turns out he's a collector and we spent half an hour on the phone talking watches. Apparently he was very surprised of the absense of attention to his add as the watch is quite rare in his opinion. Very nice guy, it's a pleasure dealing with people like that.
> 
> I picked a Kirovskie from his collection for my next purchase, but can't find it in the catalogues I have. If anyone can offer any reference info I'll be very grateful. That's the one
> View attachment 13001367


Closest one I could find, from 1960 catalog:


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> I picked a Kirovskie from his collection for my next purchase, but can't find it in the catalogues I have. If anyone can offer any reference info I'll be very grateful. That's the one


Well there's this from a certain ©2018 catalog.... ?









(Uncertain on the hands, though)


----------



## Kamburov

mroatman said:


> Well there's this from a certain ©2018 catalog....


Doh! Forgot to check in that one  and in condition I don't see very often.
Couldn't find that dial anywhere else. schnurrp posted a similar dial model, with the same hands set (spear hands, arrowhead second), so even if they are not the original to that model, they seem to be relevant. I'm probably going to buy it nevertheless. 
I told the guy that I already spent too much for watches this month, and the black dial vostok is the last watch I'm buying. He was like "I can send it to you with the vostok, and you will pay me later, in a week, month, whenever you can, it's ok"  I'm not comfortable with that, but I will be buying from him again for sure. 
Ivan


----------



## Straight_time

mroatman said:


> (Uncertain on the hands, though)


Judging from the 2 examples currently on eBay, the correct hands seem to be those of the standard Kirovskie style:


----------



## Kamburov

Straight_time said:


> Judging from the 2 examples currently on eBay, the correct hands seem to be those of the standard Kirovskie style:[/QUOTЕ]
> 
> I understand your logic, and I like following patterns myself, but I don't trust Ebay sellers. If I see those in two-three reputable private collections, then maybe I can trust them, but Ebay is a wild jungle.
> And talking of patterns, I've noticed that some hand sets seem to age worse than others, especially those arrowhead second hands. They often get replaced with better condition hand sets from similar models.
> Sooner or later a better info source will appear to make a judgement.
> Ivan


----------



## Straight_time

Usually I don't rely on them, too, but when there are no official references available and the model isn't too common, I think it's a fair method... in this case, I just asked myself: 
"_How likely it is that two different sellers in two different Countries had to replace the whole set of original hands from their respective watches, and both bothered to source the same Kirovskie ones?_".
Moreover, the second example shown has a minute hand which doesn't match at all the other two, and in my view it's another clue of what could be the correct style.
But of course I agree that this isn't a conclusive proof.

On a side note - images from reputable collections sure are helpful, but in absence of catalogs they can only reflect the owner's best knowledge (or "best guess", sometimes) at the time of redaction. In addition, chances that they are accompanied by descriptions alerting of possible authenticity issues are slim, so IMHO one should exercise _almost_ the same care as for eBay, before taking them for granted.


----------



## Kamburov

Straight_time said:


> "_How likely it is that two different sellers in two different Countries had to replace the whole set of original hands from their respective watches, and both bothered to source the same Kirovskie ones?_".


I agree with you on all principle points, but disagree on the two Ebay examples. I don't think they are the same hands. The hour hands are completely different (check the length) and that only leaves the second hands as the only similarity. Which leaves us with nothing. 
Ivan

PS: In conclusion, so far there have been 3 examples of that watch with 3 different complete sets of hands that are relevant to the time period - Dashiells baton hands, mine (soon to be?) spear shape with arrow second, and your example with the pointy ones. What seemed to be an answer, actually raised one more question and deepened the mistery 

Also in the catalogue insert that schnurrp posted, the model with similar dial (hour grooves) is with spear haped/arrowhead second handset, and that's the best catalogue reference point for now.

I guess if we wait long enough, a solution will present itself eventually


----------



## elsoldemayo

I've no evidence it is fully original, but this one 'feels' right.


----------



## momosalah

Any thoughts on this one? It really looks beautiful in person that I was this close to pulling the trigger. Thought better of it though to go here and ask for opinions of my fellow collectors. Luch 23j 2209 14k gold


----------



## Kamburov

elsoldemayo said:


> I've no evidence it is fully original, but this one 'feels' right.


It certainly does, and it's a beautiful good condition watch! 
Ivan


----------



## Bostok

Kamburov said:


> Finally found it  No movement photos. I already have a similar model, but this one looks like the exact same model as Mario's and Dashiell's. Looks ok to me, and I will take a leap of faith (alreday ordered it), but any warnings will be appreciated.
> Ivan
> View attachment 12998891
> 
> 
> View attachment 12998893


On the available photos, it's possible the crown was changed at some point and the caseback is from another watch in my opinion.


----------



## Straight_time

Kamburov said:


> I agree with you on all principle points, but disagree on the two Ebay examples. I don't think they are the same hands. The hour hands are completely different (check the length) and that only leaves the second hands as the only similarity. Which leaves us with nothing.


----------



## Kamburov

Bostok said:


> On the available photos, it's possible the crown was changed at some point and the caseback is from another watch in my opinion.


Thanks, Bostok, I too noticed these details are not quite right. The catalogues don't provide photos of the back, unfortunately. I have a lot of spares for soviet watches, and watch repair/service friends. If I get a photo of the case back for it, I will probably find the appropriate one. It deserves being complete.
Ivan


----------



## Bostok

Kamburov said:


> Thanks, Bostok, I too noticed these details are not quite right. The catalogues don't provide photos of the back, unfortunately. I have a lot of spares for soviet watches, and watch repair/service friends. If I get a photo of the case back for it, I will probably find the appropriate one. It deserves being complete.
> Ivan


This example sold for about 23 euros not so long ago, is seems fine to me, nothing special about that case back, you'll find one easily |>


----------



## Kamburov

Straight_time, don't be! Looking at hundreds of hands/dials/cases and whatnots can get anyone crosseyed. Even the most knowledgeable and experienced. 
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

Bostok said:


> This example sold for about 23 euros not so long ago, is seems fine to me, nothing special about that case back, you'll find one easily |>


 Nothing could be easier, but on the second thought it seems to be the right one. This one is like my previous (newer) model, and it is a two piece case back indeed, with a solid spacer ring. This one is a different, older case, and hollow spacer ring. I just went back in this thread and checked Dashiell's exmple and it has absolutely the same one piece plain case back. Check this out:















the one on the right, and now Dashiell's from his post back in the thread








So it's just different models that look similar, but are different in many aspects.
Ivan


----------



## Bostok

Great points and I think you're absolutely right, thanks and we always learn


----------



## mroatman

elsoldemayo said:


> I've no evidence it is fully original, but this one 'feels' right.


You've got a slightly different dial, but I agree -- unless the 12/6 model was a special one, it ought to have the standard (triangular-shaped) Kirovskie hands.


----------



## mroatman

momosalah said:


> Any thoughts on this one? It really looks beautiful in person that I was this close to pulling the trigger. Thought better of it though to go here and ask for opinions of my fellow collectors. Luch 23j 2209 14k gold


It looks all-original to me. A very fine piece.


----------



## smat

Hey guys, kinda old Russian watches, but the poljot signal always caught my eye. What are your feelings on this one? 




















Franken or no?


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> So it's just different models that look similar, but are different in many aspects.


Exactly right. Nice research, comrade b-)


----------



## mroatman

smat said:


> Hey guys, kinda old Russian watches, but the poljot signal always caught my eye. What are your feelings on this one?
> Franken or no?


The second hand and alarm hand are replaced. The second hand should be longer, reaching all the way to the minute track, and the hour hand should be the squiggly "snake" type. Compare against the 1960 catalog here.

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## Arsonita

Hi everyone! Hope y'all having a fine day. I have just 3 questions for today:
1. Is this legit/franken/fantasy/fake/badass
2. If this is legit, is the price reasonable at $59?
3. Are you guys annoyed with these 'legit check' questions?






















Thanks in advance guys! Cheers!


----------



## bpmurray

Arsonita said:


> Hi everyone! Hope y'all having a fine day. I have just 3 questions for today:
> 1. Is this legit/franken/fantasy/fake/badass
> 2. If this is legit, is the price reasonable at $59?
> 3. Are you guys annoyed with these 'legit check' questions?
> 
> Thanks in advance guys! Cheers!


100% fake, sorry. Here is why:

1. On a real vintage Sturmanskie, the lettering should all be aligned exactly vertical, not radial from the center.
2. The dial looks far too new for a watch from the 1950's, is the wrong color, and the red is far too vibrant. On the same note, the numbers should have actual applied lume, which provides texture over the plane of the dial, while the ones in the watch you posted are flat, and are clearly just printed in a different color than the rest of the dial.
3. The hands are wrong, they should be blued with lume, except for the seconds hand which should be painted red.

Here are some good resources:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/spotting-original-15-jewel-sturmanskie-tammo-23013.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/ever...anskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html

To your second question, you should expect to pay $250 just to get in the door with a poor-quality example. One in good shape will likely be at least $350.

To your third question, anyone who is sick of it doesn't have to read this thread. That said, I think most people here are kind of incensed that sellers are trying to pass off trash as valuable and collectible, and educating buyers is the best way to fix that problem.

For further reference, here is a photo of a legitimate 15 jewel variant:

View attachment DSC_0760.jpg


----------



## Arsonita

Thanks a lot for the info and sources. Kinda new to Russian watches and it's very helpful. What is weird is that if they want to make fake watches, they should at least make a good copy or almost close to the original. I mean, how hard is it to align the lettering vertically, and stencil/silk screen lume on the numbers? And make an exact copy of the hands lol


----------



## bpmurray

Arsonita said:


> Thanks a lot for the info and sources. Kinda new to Russian watches and it's very helpful. What is weird is that if they want to make fake watches, they should at least make a good copy or almost close to the original. I mean, how hard is it to align the lettering vertically, and stencil/silk screen lume on the numbers? And make an exact copy of the hands lol


Fakes are certainly getting better these days. As to your questions though, its a matter of value. Faking dials is easy - the one you posted was probably just run off an inkjet printer from a widely shared template, and cut to size. Faking hands requires that you actually have the ability to MAKE the hands, which just isn't that easy to do. Instead, these unscrupulous sellers just recycle hands from other watches, and no other watches really shared the very unique genuine Sturmanskie hands.

If this guy sells the watch you posted for $50, he's likely turning a $47 profit. Also, he'll probably make a sale quite quickly -- it's at an enticing price point for someone new to the field and not really knowledgeable yet. He could try to put the work in to make a fake $500 watch, but at that price, buyers are going to apply a lot more scrutiny and he'll likely never actually sell the thing.


----------



## balaton

Hi guys, another fleeting visit to your informative forum, if I may.

I've had this 38mm "Slava" (allegedly), with its 26j 2428, for a few years and have only recently had a proper think about it. Dashiell tells us that in the 1990s Slava sent many such movements to China where they ended up inside fakes/counterfeits and whilst I have neither the skill nor knowledge to tell whether this is one of these, the dial and Dali-esque numerals do make me fear the worst!

Regards.


----------



## Neruda

Balaton - Looks convincing to me! While not the same dial, this from a 1983 Slava catalogue shows the same case and hands:


----------



## bpmurray

Neruda said:


> Balaton - Looks convincing to me! While not the same dial, this from a 1983 Slava catalogue shows the same case and hands:


Great find! And the dial (with the exception of the day/date) is basically the same as this, from the 1987 catalog:









I believe its almost certainly real!


----------



## mroatman

balaton said:


> whilst I have neither the skill nor knowledge to tell whether this is one of these, the dial and Dali-esque numerals do make me fear the worst!


Fear not! This watch was produced long before the seedy practices of the '90s. It looks entirely legitimate to me


----------



## Kamburov

Neruda said:


> View attachment 13009517


Balaton, I have one of those, and at 38mm it's a good size watch. It's all Slava for sure, and I have seen this case only with roman numbers dials. Never seen that arabic numbers dial on it before. Interesting find.
Ivan


----------



## balaton

Thank you all for your invaluable expertise and kind words. Very much appreciated and more than a little comforting.

Best regards.


----------



## schnurrp

balaton said:


> Hi guys, another fleeting visit to your informative forum, if I may.
> 
> I've had this 38mm "Slava" (allegedly), with its 26j 2428, for a few years and have only recently had a proper think about it. Dashiell tells us that in the 1990s Slava sent many such movements to China where they ended up inside fakes/counterfeits and whilst I have neither the skill nor knowledge to tell whether this is one of these, the dial and Dali-esque numerals do make me fear the worst!
> 
> Regards.


Puts me in mind of this one I've owned before in much better condition. What's unique about this Slava?


----------



## Patski

What's the point of having lume on the numbers if the hands don't have any? And they have papers!!!

there's 2 of those, one after the other and they don't even have the same hands...


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Hello guys. Do you think this one is legit? Its advertised as a manual wind Amphibia. The dial looks ok to me and the case seems to be stainless steel but I'm concerned about the hands, the look like they're black. Is this ok?


----------



## Neruda

Andrei Mihaila - Difficult to see, for me at least, but is it possible the submarine and anchor have been added or somehow embellished? Something looks strange - but it may only be the photo.


----------



## Arizone

Andrei Mihaila said:


> Hello guys. Do you think this one is legit? Its advertised as a manual wind Amphibia. The dial looks ok to me and the case seems to be stainless steel but I'm concerned about the hands, the look like they're black. Is this ok?
> 
> View attachment 13011427
> 
> 
> View attachment 13011429


Submarine and anchor likely hand-painted, but otherwise looks okay.


----------



## Neruda

Andrei - I'm pretty sure this is how your dial started out:


----------



## mroatman

Patski said:


> What's the point of having lume on the numbers if the hands don't have any? And they have papers!!!
> there's 2 of those, one after the other and they don't even have the same hands...


In case anyone was wondering, these are most definitely _not _legit.



Andrei Mihaila said:


> Hello guys. Do you think this one is legit? Its advertised as a manual wind Amphibia. The dial looks ok to me and the case seems to be stainless steel but I'm concerned about the hands, the look like they're black. Is this ok?


As said, sub and anchor have been added. The rest looks good. Black hands are legit.



schnurrp said:


> Puts me in mind of this one I've owned before in much better condition. What's unique about this Slava?


Like a lonely single person on Valentine's Day -- no date!


----------



## smat

Okay, so I've been slowly going my way through this thread trying to figure out what you guys notice to determine legitimacy, and I've learned a lot. I've also been using the image data bases you guys have.

SO: This kopernik is fake because the seconds hand is way too small: 








This signal may be real however? 








It has the snake alarm hand, a long second hand, appropriate minute/hour hands, and round crowns?? One thing I did notice about the catalog is that the crowns appear flat. However, in all the other image catalogs and this thread, the round crowns are good?


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

*Neruda, Arizone, mroatman *thank you all. I'm thinking of buying it and changing the dial with a vintage original dial. I will see if the movement works ok.


----------



## momosalah

Anyone can tell me a bit about this Rodina? I havent owned any Russian automatic before. How does it keep time?

Much appreciated!!


----------



## Kamburov

1960 catalogue. Fits the description. Is there a movement photo?
Ivan


----------



## Bolum

I'd be interested in using the internals of this vintage 2209 for a spare 350 "swing lug" case I have to create my own vintage Frankenphibia, since I like the dial colour and paddle hands. But the dial and hands look in too good shape to be original, what do you think? Maybe they have just been relumed? I know I want to build a franken watch anyway but not with fake parts, if you know what I mean  thanks in advance for your help comrades!


----------



## Kamburov

The perfectly shaped white lume on dial and hands screams "reproduction" to me, although I don't see the hands very well. I don't think the original looks like that (I don't own one). I expect a comrade with an original one will soon post it for reference. 
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> The perfectly shaped white lume on dial and hands screams "reproduction" to me, although I don't see the hands very well. I don't think the original looks like that (I don't own one). I expect a comrade with an original one will soon post it for reference.
> Ivan


Agree. If the hands are authentic to the watch then it should have a domed crown. Here's my 1982 NOS example of a similar type 119 amphibian showing how hand painted hour bars should look and the correct hands and crown:


----------



## mroatman

smat said:


> Okay, so I've been slowly going my way through this thread trying to figure out what you guys notice to determine legitimacy, and I've learned a lot. I've also been using the image data bases you guys have.
> SO: This kopernik is fake because the seconds hand is way too small:


I wouldn't say "fake", since the only apparently-incorrect part is the second hand. And since it is a post-USSR watch ("Made in Russia" at the bottom of the dial), for all I know the hand could be legit. It's much harder to determine what was authentic or not in the post-USSR days.



smat said:


> This signal may be real however?


Indeed it is, good eyes. I consider the catalog (depicting flat crowns) to be a misprint.



momosalah said:


> Anyone can tell me a bit about this Rodina? I havent owned any Russian automatic before. How does it keep time?


All original. Timekeeping can be excellent, but like all vintage watches depends on service history. More on Rodina here --> https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/rodina



Bolum said:


> the dial and hands look in too good shape to be original, what do you think?


Hands could be original, but the dial definitely is not.


----------



## pjd

What's the consensus of this one? I'm not 100% sure about the crown.


----------



## Kamburov

I'd say legit. Looks like the crown's just in pulled out position on the first 2 photos, and fine on the 3rd.
Ivan


----------



## pjd

Kamburov said:


> I'd say legit. Looks like the crown's just in pulled out position on the first 2 photos, and fine on the 3rd.
> Ivan
> View attachment 13023067


Thank you, my wallet is trembling!!

I think I will ask the question.

Thank you for your help!


----------



## Kamburov

pjd, I hope it's for a reasonable price and you won't have to sell the house  No movement photo, but it's supposed to have a 2409A movement inside. Even the patents between the lugs look good and clean on this one.
By the way, I have an explanation for the pulled out crown. Sometimes when I take a photo of a watch I move the hands so that they don't cover the logotype and the other markings on the dial. Sometimes I forget to push it back when shooting, as I intend to return them in the original positions after the shoot. I guess that's what happened here.
Ivan


----------



## pjd

Kamburov said:


> pjd, I hope it's for a reasonable price and you won't have to sell the house  No movement photo, but it's supposed to have a 2409A movement inside. Even the patents between the lugs look good and clean on this one.
> By the way, I have an explanation for the pulled out crown. Sometimes when I take a photo of a watch I move the hands so that they don't cover the logotype and the other markings on the dial. Sometimes I forget to push it back when shooting, as I intend to return them in the original positions after the shoot. I guess that's what happened here.
> Ivan










Here's a movement picture.

You make a very good point about moving the hands out of the way for a photo.
It's a bit expensive, but if legit it will be a welcome addition addition to my collection.


----------



## pjd

Kamburov said:


> pjd, I hope it's for a reasonable price and you won't have to sell the house  No movement photo, but it's supposed to have a 2409A movement inside. Even the patents between the lugs look good and clean on this one.
> By the way, I have an explanation for the pulled out crown. Sometimes when I take a photo of a watch I move the hands so that they don't cover the logotype and the other markings on the dial. Sometimes I forget to push it back when shooting, as I intend to return them in the original positions after the shoot. I guess that's what happened here.
> Ivan



View attachment 13023165

Here's a movement picture.

You make a very good point about moving the hands out of the way for a photo.
It's a bit expensive, but if legit it will be a welcome addition addition to my collection.


----------



## Kamburov

pjd said:


> It's a bit expensive, but if legit it will be a welcome addition addition to my collection.


Unfortunately the movement photo shows a 2414A movement, and it is supposed to be 2409A. 2414A is a date complication movement, and the watch had to be modified for it. So, based on additional evidence the watch seems to be franken afterall. 
Hope the other members will soon add their opinions.
Ivan


----------



## pjd

Thanks Ivan. 
You've saved me some money. 
I'm disappointed because I totally trusted this sellers word.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Unfortunately the movement photo shows a 2414A movement, and it is supposed to be 2409A. 2414A is a date complication movement, and the watch had to be modified for it. So, based on additional evidence the watch seems to be franken afterall.
> Hope the other members will soon add their opinions.
> Ivan


It's impossible to know from that picture how much of the movement is 2414. It could be only that bridge swapped onto a 2409 or the entire date mechanism was removed from a 2414. Both modifications would work. If you like the watch that much and it's available at a reasonable price it would be pretty simple to fix. I believe new 2409 movements are available and many cheap parts watches have them. I would not pay a premium price.


----------



## pjd

schnurrp said:


> It's impossible to know from that picture how much of the movement is 2414. It could be only that bridge swapped onto a 2409 or the entire date mechanism was removed from a 2414. Both modifications would work. If you like the watch that much and it's available at a reasonable price it would be pretty simple to fix. I believe new 2409 movements are available and many cheap parts watches have them. I would not pay a premium price.


Thank you Schnurrp, 
It's listed as new old stock, so I will avoid. 
It isn't an insignificant price.


----------



## mroatman

pjd said:


> I'm disappointed because I totally trusted this sellers word.


It's worth pointing out this 'defect' to Julia/Konstantin (whoever is running the emails that day) to ask about the discrepancy. There may be a good story behind it. Or not.


----------



## Kamburov

I agree with schnurrp and mroatman. My guess is that only the bridge is changed for some unknown reason, otherwise the movement seems very clean and tidy. If the seller is reputable, that may be a good leverage to get a good deal. I call that an opportunity.
Ivan


----------



## pjd

Thanks for the replies.
I've asked a question to the seller. 
I really hope there's a logical explanation. 
I will let you know the answer.


----------



## Patski

I've been looking for a 24h watch for quite some time, but I have a hard time to choose,. I was first looking at Glycines, but those are out of reach right now... So I've been looking at Sturmanskie and Raketa, but even then, there is nothing that says Wow to me.... I was looking for a white dial as I have plenty of dark ones, but nothing that interested me... So I found this (which is black) looks Authentic, but the numerals rotate around the dial, which looks weird to me... Better be safe than sorry!


----------



## Neruda

Patski - unfortunately it is a modern replica, although it does probably have an old stock Poljot movement. There seems to be quite an industry making these based in the Ukraine. One of the give-aways is the absence of a serial number on the caseback.

If you haven't seen them, you might also consider two new Komandirskie models from Vostok:
https://meranom.com/en/komandirskie-classic/vostok-watch-komandirskie-650541.html
https://meranom.com/en/komandirskie-classic/35/vostok-watch-komandirskie-350607.html
The second is also available in other colours and without date.


----------



## Patski

Thanks alot! Good thing I asked... Since I already have 3 Vostoks, I wanted to get somehing different!


----------



## Kamburov

Those second hands, I have no luck with them. I'm getting this pobeda, as it is within my favourite under $20 price range. I know the second hand is wrong, but everything else looks right (crystal, crown, hands etc.). I really like these pobedas, and I regret selling the two I had some years ago. Do you see anything else wrong with it other than the second hand?
Thank you
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Those second hands, I have no luck with them. I'm getting this pobeda, as it is within my favourite under $20 price range. I know the second hand is wrong, but everything else looks right (crystal, crown, hands etc.). I really like these pobedas, and I regret selling the two I had some years ago. Do you see anything else wrong with it other than the second hand?
> Thank you
> Ivan
> View attachment 13033805
> 
> View attachment 13033807


The 17 jewel hacking movement was best known for being put in the various sportivnies and of course the sturmanskie Gagarin but I remember being told that a few Pobedas were made with this movement. Yours might be one of those.

This looks like it in a 1960 catalog but I can't tell what movement it should have:


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp, thanks for the input! At the time I sold my pobedas I hadn't started dissecting movements. One of them was a golden numbers/hands version of this one, beautiful watch. The movement looked like this one, but I don't recall being hacking, is it the 15 jewels? Anyway, I bought it, and the seller is from my city, so we'll see what's that about very soon.
Ivan


----------



## Straight_time

schnurrp said:


> This looks like it in a 1960 catalog but I can't tell what movement it should have


According to the catalog (page 122), the same movement of the whole family of these Pobedas:

"Часы наручные м у ж с к и е «Победа» 31ЧН изготовляют по ГОСТ 6519-58 с часовой, минутной и центральной секундной стрелками.
Часовой механизм 41М диаметром 26 мм со стальным анкерным ходом на 15 рубиновых камнях. Продолжительность хода от одной полной заводки пружины не менее 34 ч. Средний суточный ход ± 45 сек."
_
Wristwatch "Victory" 31CHN are manufactured according to GOST 6519-58 with hour, minute and central seconds hands.
The clock mechanism is *41M*, diameter 26 mm with a steel anchorage on *15* ruby stones. The length of the stroke from one complete spring not less than 34 hours. Average daily course ± 45 sec._

(Google translation)


----------



## Chascomm

Neruda said:


> There seems to be quite an industry making these based in the Ukraine.....


and Moscow. I'm sure I've seen these coming out of Moscow, too.

Just thought I should add that in case anybody thought that there was a 'safe' location from which one can be guaranteed authentic goods.


----------



## arebokert

I just bought a watch off of etsy, a vostok 2209. I'm now wondering if it is a franken. I have crosschecked it against pictures of similar/the same watch and the only difference I can find is the logo on the dial.


----------



## arebokert

I should add that I found the (probably) corresponding one on Dashiells site:


----------



## schnurrp

arebokert said:


> I just bought a watch off of etsy, a vostok 2209. I'm now wondering if it is a franken. I have crosschecked it against pictures of similar/the same watch and the only difference I can find is the logo on the dial.
> 
> View attachment 13034843
> 
> View attachment 13034845
> 
> View attachment 13034847
> 
> View attachment 13034849
> 
> View attachment 13034851
> 
> View attachment 13034853
> 
> View attachment 13034855


A fairly common Vostok (meaning it probably was quite popular in its time) in uncommonly nice condition. Good pickup (at the right price).


----------



## arebokert

Thank you for the response!

I paid $82 including shipping which I'm guessing is quite expensive. I don't mind however as I only want one (famous last words haha) and it seems to be in much better condition than most other watches I've found.


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> Do you see anything else wrong with it other than the second hand?


I agree, the movement should be 15 jewels, and I'm afraid all three hands have been replaced (the minute hand should reach all the way to the minute track at the outer edge of the dial).









Still a nice watch for a cheap price, and you get the desirable pillow crown as a bonus


----------



## mroatman

arebokert said:


> I just bought a watch off of etsy, a vostok 2209. I'm now wondering if it is a franken. I have crosschecked it against pictures of similar/the same watch and the only difference I can find is the logo on the dial.


A truly beautiful piece!


----------



## schnurrp

arebokert said:


> Thank you for the response!
> 
> I paid $82 including shipping which I'm guessing is quite expensive. I don't mind however as I only want one (famous last words haha) and it seems to be in much better condition than most other watches I've found.


That price is not so bad for one in that condition, particularly if it's working as well as that movement is capable of and it's intended to be your one and only watch. If this starts you collecting you will have plenty of chances to offset a slight overpay with some nice bargains in the future. That's one of the nice things about finding bargains, you don't feel so bad about splurging once in a while.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> schnurrp, thanks for the input! At the time I sold my pobedas I hadn't started dissecting movements. One of them was a golden numbers/hands version of this one, beautiful watch. The movement looked like this one, but I don't recall being hacking, is it the 15 jewels? Anyway, I bought it, and the seller is from my city, so we'll see what's that about very soon.
> Ivan


I have these two with the gold-lettered 41-m movements. I don't remember having ever seen one with 15 jewels. The hacking movement is always 17 jewels with the thick bridge which necessitates recessing the jewels.


----------



## Bostok

Kamburov said:


> schnurrp, thanks for the input! At the time I sold my pobedas I hadn't started dissecting movements. One of them was a golden numbers/hands version of this one, beautiful watch. The movement looked like this one, but I don't recall being hacking, is it the 15 jewels? Anyway, I bought it, and the seller is from my city, so we'll see what's that about very soon.
> Ivan


That model is one of my favorite Pobedas, but unfortunately, as mentioned, I would also say the one shown is a franken, especially the movement should be the classic 15 jewels. Having the hacking mechanism in some (few?) Pobedas of this type sounds interesting, certainly, especially with your model normally having that distinctive red second hand, but irrefutable proof is still to be found/provided&#8230; Anyway, even if you bought it, the distinctive and rather rare to find crown worth it besides the dial, the case and the other parts&#8230; Regards and good hunting ;-)

P.S. this is mine as already shown in the past, I think in its complete original state (1955) so I didn't even dare polishing the crystal as I like it too much this way


----------



## Kamburov

Many thanks to schnurrp, mroatman and Bostok for your advice and your time! I figured the appr. $15 price is good enough for parts, especially if the 17 jewels is in good condition as advertised. Sometimes I get lucky, sometimes not, but if it's cheap enough it's all good. It's hard finding good condition spare parts. With this one I also bought a very cheap 2214 case franken in good working condition, and I think you will understand why I did so. Broken seconds hand but still I would pay the money for the dial only.
For all reading, this is a non authentic FRANKEN watch!








Another sad example of good watches being orphaned of their gold plated cases for melting and cased in whatever is laying arround.

Bostok, your pobeda is exactly (not counting the crown) as the one I sold two years ago for about $15, and if there were watches I regret selling, this one's in the top 3. I wish I found this forum and all of you earlier. 
Ivan


----------



## Bostok

Kamburov said:


> Bostok, your pobeda is exactly (not counting the crown) as the one I sold two years ago for about $15, and if there were watches I regret selling, this one's in the top 3. I wish I found this forum and all of you earlier.
> Ivan


We're all here to enjoy and humbly learn from each other.

If you look carefully, you'll see the dial model is different also and I can't recall when exactly (towards 1960? I think) they stopped marking the year on the movements&#8230; so I can't vow for the combination but I'm sure you'll find another one to forget the regrets and gratify the wait ;-)


----------



## Kamburov

I'm considering this Kama for about $20. Bought a Mir from the same seller and thinking of combined shipping. The Kamas I've had before were nowhere near the condition of this one. Even though it's relatively cheap, I would buy it only if it's authentic, as I already bought quite a few this week.
Ivan


----------



## lollo1979

hi comrades, 
I bought this non working chrono To practice on 3133 fixing. 
Is It original or franken?


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> I'm considering this Kama for about $20. Bought a Mir from the same seller and thinking of combined shipping. The Kamas I've had before were nowhere near the condition of this one. Even though it's relatively cheap, I would buy it only if it's authentic, as I already bought quite a few this week.
> Ivan
> View attachment 13036511
> 
> View attachment 13036515
> 
> View attachment 13036519


I would not be interested in that one since it has dial feet repair showing through to the dial face at 5 and 11 which would make me wonder.


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> For all reading, this is a non authentic FRANKEN watch!
> Another sad example of good watches being orphaned of their gold plated cases for melting and cased in whatever is laying arround.


Don't be so sure. There are always surprises in this hobby....

According to the catalogs, baton hands and a chromed case are fully legit


----------



## SoundsFerg

*Re: Vostok classification database draft*

Can anyone give me more info on this watch? I can't find any others that look quite like it so I'm thinking it's a franken. I hope I'm wrong. ;-)


----------



## SoundsFerg

Hi everyone. I got into watches pretty recently and Russian watches seemed like a good place to start. Do you guys think this is a redial/franken? It looks a bit too clean to me. The eBay seller said that all replacement parts are genuine but also said that they didn't offer a guarantee so I'm not sure what to think. They do have a 100% feedback rating, though I'm not sure what that's really worth.


----------



## Kamburov

Hi, SoundsFerg, and welcome to the forum! This is the 1987 catalogue with the chromed and gold plated models with this dial. The only difference I see is the second hand, it looks black in the catalogue. The red one is also quite short so it may be from a different model. Is there a photo of the movement? 
Generally from the outside looks like a genuine raketa with a replaced second hand and some wear at the back. Hope it's reasonably priced. 
Ivan


----------



## Horloge17

Kamburov said:


> Hi, SoundsFerg, and welcome to the forum! This is the 1987 catalogue with the chromed and gold plated models with this dial. The only difference I see is the second hand, it looks black in the catalogue. The red one is also quite short so it may be from a different model. Is there a photo of the movement?
> Generally from the outside looks like a genuine raketa with a replaced second hand and some wear at the back. Hope it's reasonably priced.
> Ivan
> View attachment 13039273
> 
> View attachment 13039275


The dial and case look like the same but to me the minutehand is much longer in the catalog then on the watch (the same goes for the second hand), and also on the dial the watch has the first class stamp (and not in the catalog).

Al that being said I'm not saying this watch isn't orginal nor am I saying this watch isn't a fanken watch... I just don't know enough to say anything...


----------



## SennaGTS

How about this Type-1? Is it the type of watch that may have been used in the war?


----------



## schnurrp

SennaGTS said:


> How about this Type-1? Is it the type of watch that may have been used in the war?
> 
> View attachment 13040263
> 
> 
> View attachment 13040265
> 
> 
> View attachment 13040267


Hard to say since it appears almost any functioning watch had a chance to end up on the wrist of a soldier. That one looks like a Second Moscow pocket watch that was given lugs so that it could be worn as a wristwatch. The date I read as 1940 so that is correct for a wwII piece. There are some who believe the ones made specifically for the military had a 24 hr. dial as pictured below. Regardless, a very interesting dial.


----------



## SennaGTS

schnurrp said:


> Hard to say since it appears almost any functioning watch had a chance to end up on the wrist of a soldier. That one looks like a Second Moscow pocket watch that was given lugs so that it could be worn as a wristwatch. The date I read as 1940 so that is correct for a wwII piece. There are some who believe the ones made specifically for the military had a 24 hr. dial as pictured below. Regardless, a very interesting dial.
> 
> View attachment 13040289


I'm guessing there are quite a few frankens and "fakes" claiming to be from the era around, with reproduction dials and hands.

Do these old watches also contain radioactive material for the lume?

How about these two? They're like the 24 hour version, but the hands are completely different.

1:

























2: (Number application on this one seems a bit suspect)


----------



## schnurrp

I think they look okay although there is a lumable second hand that is missing from those two. I'm not sure if that is a defect or not. If there is original lume left anywhere on the watch dial or hands then it's radioactive and you should take necessary precautions to protect yourself from inhaling or ingesting any particles. If you never open the watch then I wouldn't worry about the old lume but that's your decision.


----------



## Kamburov

Horloge17 said:


> The dial and case look like the same but to me the minutehand is much longer in the catalog then on the watch (the same goes for the second hand), and also on the dial the watch has the first class stamp (and not in the catalog).
> 
> Al that being said I'm not saying this watch isn't orginal nor am I saying this watch isn't a fanken watch... I just don't know enough to say anything...


Agree with you there, maybe the whole handset is replaced. The gold plated model on the first catalogue photo is with the shorter minute hand, so it may be a collection of hands from similar cased models. So obviously the watch is not in it's original state, as when it came out the factory. 
That said, if this watch has the right and good working movement, and is cheap enough, I would go for it, or will try negotiate a better price using the wrong hands and the case wear as the reason for it. Because it is a good looking raketa model, and finding an original set of black hands will not be a big problem. It all depends on the price. 
So to answer the original SoundsFerg question, if you are looking for a premium authentic watch, then that one is not it, and you shouldn't pay premium money for it. On the other hand if you really like that watch (I certainly do) and you can get it very cheap, there's a big chance (if it has a good movement) that a reverse handset replacement will bring it back to it's original state. 
If you are not sure about this, then the best way to go is to find an authentic watch for your purchase. There are plenty of those for sale, and the members here are fery helpful with knoledgeable and friendly opinions. 
Ivan


----------



## SoundsFerg

Thanks for the help! I think I'll pass on this one. I can't unsee how short the hands are now, haha.


----------



## SoundsFerg

Can anyone give me some info on this Vostok? The hands look a ..... strange for the dial.



















I also found some similar examples I'm keeping an eye on:


----------



## SoundsFerg

Kamburov said:


> Agree with you there, maybe the whole handset is replaced. The gold plated model on the first catalogue photo is with the shorter minute hand, so it may be a collection of hands from similar cased models. So obviously the watch is not in it's original state, as when it came out the factory.
> That said, if this watch has the right and good working movement, and is cheap enough, I would go for it, or will try negotiate a better price using the wrong hands and the case wear as the reason for it. Because it is a good looking raketa model, and finding an original set of black hands will not be a big problem. It all depends on the price.
> So to answer the original SoundsFerg question, if you are looking for a premium authentic watch, then that one is not it, and you shouldn't pay premium money for it. On the other hand if you really like that watch (I certainly do) and you can get it very cheap, there's a big chance (if it has a good movement) that a reverse handset replacement will bring it back to it's original state.
> If you are not sure about this, then the best way to go is to find an authentic watch for your purchase. There are plenty of those for sale, and the members here are fery helpful with knoledgeable and friendly opinions.
> Ivan


Thanks for the info! The watch is priced reasonably. I think I'll search for the original hands!


----------



## schnurrp

SoundsFerg said:


> Can anyone give me some info on this Vostok? The hands look a ..... strange for the dial.
> View attachment 13040977
> View attachment 13040981
> View attachment 13040983
> 
> I also found some similar examples I'm keeping an eye on:
> View attachment 13040987
> View attachment 13040989


Here is a domestic market model in '83 catalog with simple black batons:


----------



## Mercs

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Ok I would really like some opinions on this one, being the first of its kind I have come to own. I just got back from vacation and while I was gone, this Poljot 3133 I won on an auction had arrived in the mail. I don't know much about these, so just give it to me straight please. I can take better pictures if needed, sorry I was kind of in a hurry to get these posted in-between some other stuff today 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Straight_time

SennaGTS said:


> How about this Type-1? Is it the type of watch that may have been used in the war?
> 
> View attachment 13040265
> 
> 
> View attachment 13040267


Agree with comrade schnurrp, 2ChZ dial style is rather uncommon.
The balance assembly (bridge+wheel) has been swapped from a 1GChZ watch: a common repair which should not bother you much, unless you are looking for 100% authenticity and the seller describes it as such, charging a premium on that basis.
Rather than lugs attached to a pocket case, IMHO it looks more like a genuine wrist case filled with a dial+movement combo coming from a pocket watch; therefore, unlikely to have been originally meant for military use (also, in 1940 the SU hadn't been involved in the war yet), but maybe eventually converted for that purpose.


----------



## mroatman

SoundsFerg said:


> Hi everyone. I got into watches pretty recently and Russian watches seemed like a good place to start. Do you guys think this is a redial/franken? It looks a bit too clean to me. The eBay seller said that all replacement parts are genuine but also said that they didn't offer a guarantee so I'm not sure what to think. They do have a 100% feedback rating, though I'm not sure what that's really worth.





Horloge17 said:


> The dial and case look like the same but to me the minutehand is much longer in the catalog then on the watch (the same goes for the second hand), and also on the dial the watch has the first class stamp (and not in the catalog).
> Al that being said I'm not saying this watch isn't orginal nor am I saying this watch isn't a fanken watch... I just don't know enough to say anything...


For what it's worth:


----------



## mroatman

Mercs said:


> Ok I would really like some opinions on this one, being the first of its kind I have come to own. I just got back from vacation and while I was gone, this Poljot 3133 I won on an auction had arrived in the mail. I don't know much about these, so just give it to me straight please. I can take better pictures if needed, sorry I was kind of in a hurry to get these posted in-between some other stuff today


Looks fine to me. A nice late civilian model.



Straight_time said:


> Rather than lugs attached to a pocket case, IMHO it looks more like a genuine wrist case filled with a dial+movement combo coming from a pocket watch


Indeed, the crown at 12 is a giveaway.

I think the watch originally looked more like this:


----------



## MattBrace

Mercs said:


> Ok I would really like some opinions on this one, being the first of its kind I have come to own. I just got back from vacation and while I was gone, this Poljot 3133 I won on an auction had arrived in the mail. I don't know much about these, so just give it to me straight please. I can take better pictures if needed, sorry I was kind of in a hurry to get these posted in-between some other stuff today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your 3133 dates from around 1992. The last of the Soviet era production examples. All looks to be in good original condition. Silver balance wheel and SU on the bridge are correct for this period.


----------



## Straight_time

mroatman said:


> Indeed, the crown at 12 is a giveaway.
> 
> I think the watch originally looked more like this:
> 
> View attachment 13041573


Not _exactly_ like that... your watch is in a 1GChZ (decorated) case, 2ChZ's must have plain bezel and caseback instead ;-)


----------



## SennaGTS

Thanks schnurrp, straight_time and Dashiel.

So based on all of this, it could even be more likely the original 2CHz dial I showed was modified for use during the war? Again, I guess it's also possible to be a franken put together and made to look like it was used during the war.

How much should I expect to pay for a reasonable condition Type 1?


----------



## kev80e

For some time I've wanted a Sturmanskie 31659 and so I've begun searching. What do you guys think of this one ?


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> Not _exactly_ like that... your watch is in a 1GChZ (decorated) case, 2ChZ's must have plain bezel and caseback instead ;-)


Ahem.









The back is plain. Only the bezel is decorated ;-)


----------



## Straight_time

Oops.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> For some time I've wanted a Sturmanskie 31659 and so I've begun searching. What do you guys think of this one ?
> View attachment 13044133
> View attachment 13044135


I like it except for the date on the balance bridge. I thought those from '87 would have the all grey dial, that one looks like an example of the later models. Could be considered a repair, I suppose.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> I like it except for the date on the balance bridge. I thought those from '87 would have the all grey dial, that one looks like an example of the later models. Could be considered a repair, I suppose.


I see what you mean. The dial , compared to ones on Polmax's site looks more 92. Having said that everything else looks good. It's fairly cheap so I may just go for it . Thinking time required I think. Thanks Schnurrp.


----------



## Patski

Not exactly a wrist watch, but still Russian!

Looks ok to me but might as well be safe than sorry

Molnija pocket watch... I'm trying to get a better hinge picture, they usually break there


----------



## mroatman

Patski said:


> Not exactly a wrist watch, but still Russian!
> Looks ok to me but might as well be safe than sorry


Crown looks off...

Edit: It actually appears that this is the correct crown for this model. Still looks off 😅


----------



## Patski

mroatman said:


> Crown looks off...
> 
> Edit: It actually appears that this is the correct crown for this model. Still looks off


Thanks!


----------



## audiomagnate

I guess I posted in the wrong thread (franken of the week) so I'll try here. The seller is insisting this is a %100 original watch and refusing to accept a return, and I disagree. The inside bezel looks original but the dial looks awful in real life and doesn't match the indiced bezel, either in design or the way it reflects light. It doesn't show in the photo, but the interior bezel has a nice patina. Also the hands are butchered and the paint job on them is awful (again, it doesn't show in the photo, but the paint is very gloppy). Sorry for the huge ugly catalog photo but I can't figure out how to download just one page of it.



Dear sir!
I'm a collector of Soviet wristwatches for more than 10 years.
The dial is 100% original.
On all original dials the inscription "Made in the USSR".
The dial and inner frame of the same color are also a guarantee of authenticity.
With best regards Alex.

So I guess if it's the right color and it says "Made in the USSR" it can't be a fake, right?

*- alexa_gromi*


----------



## schnurrp

It does look a little suspect. If you bought it on ebay and the pictures did not represent the true condition of the watch you can open a case and get a refund that way. As far as authenticity goes you really can't take the seller's opinion on that cause they can be honestly wrong sometimes and you are left trying to prove inauthenticity. I know it can be hard but you need to satisfy yourself before you buy and probably stay away from items that are borderline unless they are really cheap. Try to get some other opinions _before_ buying.


----------



## mroatman

audiomagnate said:


> The seller is insisting this is a %100 original watch and refusing to accept a return


I'll agree with you that the watch looks like a construction, but unfortunately many sellers have much less knowledge about Soviet watches than discerning collectors. The seller may honestly believe it is a genuine item, whether he is correct or not.

If the item arrived as described in the listing photos, you'll need to swallow this tough pill and remember Lou's wise words:



LouS said:


> You can't anticipate every single flaw, but you will get more savvy with time. If you've put down a pile of chips on a disappointment, and you can't return it, that's called tuition, and you have educated yourself not to make that mistake again. I've paid plenty of tuition in my time!


----------



## Straight_time

I have dealt with this seller, and it seemed to me a very reasonable person.

Try linking him this thread so that he can see that the watch is indeed a franken, and I am confident that you'll both find a gentlemen's agreement. ;-)

From the 1987 Consumer Goods catalog:









That specific dial belongs to two square case models, one chromed and one gilded.

To the best of my knowledge, round cases -with an inner ring- can actually have dials with an outer minutes scale printed on them, but in such case (no pun intended) the inner ring can only have the 5-minutes digits, not the 1-minute marks. That is, there can't be a model with two contiguous minutes scales.


----------



## audiomagnate

Straight_time said:


> ...That is, there can't be a model with two contiguous minutes scales.


Thanks for your help. Yeah, that didn't make a lot of sense to me.


----------



## Kamburov

Need your advice on this steel case Raketa calendar. Anyone seen that model before?
Any info will be much appreciated!
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Need your advice on this steel case Raketa calendar. Anyone seen that model before?
> Any info will be much appreciated!
> Ivan
> View attachment 13058431
> 
> View attachment 13058433


No. I would say very rare, probably the only one in existence, if you know what I mean, comrade.


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> No. I would say very rare, probably the only one in existence, if you know what I mean, comrade.


Thanks, schnurrp! Got curious about the steel case, but couldn't find anything like this watch. I guess I'll keep my money for now. Still curious about the steel case, though, if it's a raketa one, or something entirely different. For a moment I thought I spotted a rare watch, but it turns out to be unique 
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Thanks, schnurrp! Got curious about the steel case, but couldn't find anything like this watch. I guess I'll keep my money for now. Still curious about the steel case, though, if it's a raketa one, or something entirely different. For a moment I thought I spotted a rare watch, but it turns out to be unique
> Ivan


Just my opinion, of course. What makes you think the case is stainless? Looks like a conventional 24 hr. case* to me. Lighting of the picture does not allow metal color to be compared well but I'd be surprised if they ever made an identical case in stainless.















*which, of course, is a mistake for the perpetual calendar movement/dial.


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> What makes you think the case is stainless?


The seller insists the case is steel. I don't own any 24 hr raketas, so the case didn't look familiar to me. I have to get one.
Thanks again for your time and advice! I'm curious if it's steel, but not curious enough to buy this franken watch. 
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> The seller insists the case is steel.


This is not uncommon. Think how unlikely it would be they could mill the same case from brass and stainless.

A better picture of the back with the back cover on would help identify. Notice the difference in color below of the warm stainless parts (back and bracelet) and the cold color of the chrome.









Also looks like the "creator" used a 1/16 dremel drill bit at 2-3-4 and 7-8-9. Also the crystal is not the nice smoothly curving one going by the amount of distortion at the edges.


----------



## Kamburov

Providing false description to make it more interesting (very rare, all steel case, etc.) is just wrong. I was interested in some other items from this seller, but now I'm done with it. The auction ends in more than 2 hours, and the price is now $30 and rising. 
Thre are pictures of the case:















It's probably just a well preserved chromed case, as you say. Now I'm curious how high it will sell for.
Ivan

PS: By the wear under the lugs it looks kind of steely, though, or is it just me?


----------



## audiomagnate

schnurrp said:


> ...Also looks like the "creator" used a 1/16 dremel drill bit at 2-3-4 and 7-8-9...


What the heck??? Even the bizzaro world of Russian frankens that seems really strange. Why would anyone do that?


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> Need your advice on this steel case Raketa calendar. Anyone seen that model before?
> Any info will be much appreciated!
> Ivan


Quite a strange one. Does it say "19 Rubin" (in.....German?) above the day/date window?

The likelihood of the case being steel is approximately 0. Rechromed, maybe, which would explain the wear marks.

The dial is a total mystery. The mix of Russian and another language is only possible on a 1990s-era piece, as are those hideous rhinestones (or did the seller mention they were real diamonds?). But the State Quality Mark clearly implies an earlier production date.

Oh, and the crystal is not streamlined, as it should be with this model.

All in all, I'd say it's an overpriced, customized, and/or counterfeited piece of junk.


----------



## audiomagnate

mroatman said:


> Quite a strange one. Does it say "19 Rubin" (in.....German?) above the day/date window?
> 
> The likelihood of the case being steel is approximately 0. Rechromed, maybe, which would explain the wear marks.
> 
> The dial is a total mystery. The mix of Russian and another language is only possible on a 1990s-era piece, as are those hideous rhinestones (or did the seller mention they were real diamonds?). But the State Quality Mark clearly implies an earlier production date.
> 
> Oh, and the crystal is not streamlined, as it should be with this model.
> 
> All in all, I'd say it's an overpriced, customized, and/or counterfeited piece of junk.


I think as schnurrp surmised the "creator" just went at it with a drill bit. The resolution isn't that great but the nine o'clock shiny spot looks more like a gouge than a rhinestone.


----------



## Kamburov

mroatman said:


> All in all, I'd say it's an overpriced, customized, and/or counterfeited piece of junk.


Yes, and it sold for some good money. I ignored it after schnurrp's advice. When I see something I've never seen before, it's either a franken or a very rare genuine watch. Usually of the first type, sadly. I've seen few soviet watches, but as in life, the more I see the more I realise I know nothing. That's why I share it with you, so thank you too, Dashiell!. 
The good thing is I saved myself some money to spend on genuine watches, and that's one seller out of my shopping list. 
And it's high time I get myself one of those 24 hr raketas. 
Ivan


----------



## thewatchadude

What do you fellow Russian watch experts think of this one? Looks good in many respects except maybe the crown. Also the bezel is yellowish instead of orange but seems to have the right shape in my unexperimented eyes.









As for the back, I have no idea how is should look like. Is this correct?


----------



## wekke

date on the balance bridge '87, 5-digit serial number starts in 1989 ?
'ALL GREY' have 4-digit serial


----------



## schnurrp

thewatchadude said:


> What do you fellow Russian watch experts think of this one? Looks good in many respects except maybe the crown. Also the bezel is yellowish instead of orange but seems to have the right shape in my unexperimented eyes.
> 
> View attachment 13063913
> 
> 
> As for the back, I have no idea how is should look like. Is this correct?
> 
> View attachment 13063915


Here's what mine looks like; I think the crown is okay. Mine came with a worn orange bezel and I replaced it with a nicer one off a quartz version which fit fine.


----------



## schnurrp

wekke said:


> date on the balance bridge '87, 5-digit serial number starts in 1989 ?
> 'ALL GREY' have 4-digit serial
> View attachment 13064031
> View attachment 13064035
> 
> View attachment 13064011


Yes, my all grey:


----------



## elsoldemayo

What are the thoughts on this one? Never seen a blue dial model before.


----------



## dutchassasin

elsoldemayo said:


> What are the thoughts on this one? Never seen a blue dial model before.


Hands and dial are definitely incorrect. If i remember correctly the seller first advertised this watch with a common 350 silver dial. 
Blue dial did get made but for civilian market certainly not military.

?????? ????? ????? ?????? - ????? ??????????? ??????????


----------



## mroatman

Looking for some expert opinions on this one. I've never seen this exact watch before, and at first I was sure it was a franken.









The case and hands appear to be from a Mayak (Petrodvorets), and the dial from an aluminum Pobeda (also Petrodvorets). But I was struck by the English text on the dial, almost unheard-of for Pobedas of this vintage (mid-1960s). And the font actually looks like a similar font used on another Petrodvorets Pobeda from the same period (in Cyrillic, of course), which happens to use the same oversized hands.









The rest of the watch is shown below, with a nice, early Petrodvorets movement -- exactly what we would expect from a watch of this vintage, right around 1964 when the diamond ПЧЗ logo was being phased out. (Many Starts also have a diamond logo on the dial with a sumo logo on the movement, or vice versa, indicating a period of transition around '64).

But the case-back is in Cyrillic, a mismatch with the dial that's hard to reconcile.









Overall, to my eye everything just seems to 'fit' together in a really compelling way. And at the same time, it looks like a mish-mash.

So what do you think? A rare early export? A worthless franken?


----------



## Neruda

Mroatman - came across this watch in a google search. Different dial - but the same export lettering I think and maybe a similar date.


----------



## mroatman

Neruda said:


> Mroatman - came across this watch in a google search. Different dial - but the same export lettering I think and maybe a similar date.


Any shot of the caseback?

I am reminded now that even on English-branded Raketa models, often this (Cryllic) back was used:









So perhaps this English dial + Cyrillic caseback combination, typically a sign of a construction, is legitimate -- at least for Petrodvorets models from the 1960s.


----------



## haha

This czechoslovak army Pobeda seems to be legit, but since it's a rather special watch, i'd rather ask the experts


----------



## Neruda

Mroatman - Sadly not. The photo is on Pinterest, but the link through to etsy is long gone and the watch is "not available".


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi all,

any view on this one?


----------



## bpmurray

haha said:


> This czechoslovak army Pobeda seems to be legit, but since it's a rather special watch, i'd rather ask the experts


Looks correct to me. Great find! I don't believe that an A 195 stamped dial has been posted here before. Here's a great thread to browse through: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/czechoslovakian-military-pobedas-2904066.html


----------



## mroatman

Neruda said:


> Mroatman - Sadly not. The photo is on Pinterest, but the link through to etsy is long gone and the watch is "not available".


Dang. Thanks anyway ?



bpmurray said:


> I don't believe that an A 195 stamped dial has been posted here before.


Nope. Gotta add it.


----------



## haha

> Looks correct to me. Great find! I don't believe that an A 195 stamped dial has been posted here before. Here's a great thread to browse through: Czechoslovakian Military Pobedas


Thank you for your expertise and the link.


----------



## thewatchadude

Any view on the red Vostok anyone?


----------



## mroatman

thewatchadude said:


> Hi all,
> any view on this one?


Second hand looks pretty short, and crown doesn't match the case. Case type is not familiar to me.

Is there a movement shot?


----------



## schnurrp

thewatchadude said:


> Any view on the red Vostok anyone?


This is the closest I could find in available catalogs:

1987









Dial with large hour dots seem to indicate some larger wider perhaps lumed hands are original. I would not be interested unless cheap as a parts watch.


----------



## kev80e

I should know better but asking after purchasing and without movement pictures. But from a seller I am hopefully correct in trusting. I must admit brought in a hurry too, so did everything wrong but hopefully not completely messed up but they were too cheap to pass on. 














The Sturmanskie has the correct back, I've seen it and a 31659 movement I'm told.


----------



## MattBrace

kev80e said:


> I should know better but asking after purchasing and without movement pictures. But from a seller I am hopefully correct in trusting. I must admit brought in a hurry too, so did everything wrong but hopefully not completely messed up but they were too cheap to pass on.
> View attachment 13076275
> View attachment 13076277
> 
> 
> The Sturmanskie has the correct back, I've seen it and a 31659 movement I'm told.


Nice additions to the collection Kev,

Need more pictures really, I think the radio room has the incorrect bezel for that case type, minor detail really the dial all looks good, missing a few lume pips. Need a movement picture now.

31659 looks nice. Not sure on the lume work, perhaps new lume? Again movement picture required and dial close ups.

Cheers..


----------



## kev80e

MattBrace said:


> Nice additions to the collection Kev,
> 
> Need more pictures really, I think the radio room has the incorrect bezel for that case type, minor detail really the dial all looks good, missing a few lume pips. Need a movement picture now.
> 
> 31659 looks nice. Not sure on the lume work, perhaps new lume? Again movement picture required and dial close ups.
> 
> Cheers..


Thanks Matt. I must admit the bezel I'm not sure on. I've seen them with this one , dot dash and 10 20 but which is correct I'm not 100% sure , though I suspect dot dash with a lume dot.
I will post some better pictures when they arrive.


----------



## dutchassasin

of course this is a cutlet , but what about the no-date neptune dial? Purely hypothetical as im not interested in buying.
Looks pretty convincing and interesting. There are missing minute markers around the 3 o clock, giving evidence that punching process was skipped.


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> of course this is a cutlet , but what about the no-date neptune dial? Purely hypothetical as im not interested in buying.
> Looks pretty convincing and interesting. There are missing minute markers around the 3 o clock, giving evidence that punching process was skipped.


I saw that one, too. The dial looks legit to me but I'm having a hard time understanding where one which states "antimagnetic" and has such a small printed diameter belongs. The loss of printing at ''3" is consistent with a non-sealing crown.

I had about decided it was one of those as posted below from Dash's collection, minus the internal bezel, until I saw it lacked a date function.

A complete mystery to me.


----------



## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> of course this is a cutlet , but what about the no-date neptune dial? Purely hypothetical as im not interested in buying.
> Looks pretty convincing and interesting. There are missing minute markers around the 3 o clock, giving evidence that punching process was skipped.


Smuggled out of the factory one day when Ivan was feeling mischievous, if you ask me.


----------



## audiomagnate

Just a follow up. The seller has promised (I know...) to send me a correct dial and hands at no cost when he comes across them. Also Julian (poljot24.de) is selling NOS examples of my watch before it was frankened. Here's a great photo of one of his.



audiomagnate said:


> I guess I posted in the wrong thread (franken of the week) so I'll try here. The seller is insisting this is a %100 original watch and refusing to accept a return, and I disagree. The inside bezel looks original but the dial looks awful in real life and doesn't match the indiced bezel, either in design or the way it reflects light. It doesn't show in the photo, but the interior bezel has a nice patina. Also the hands are butchered and the paint job on them is awful (again, it doesn't show in the photo, but the paint is very gloppy). Sorry for the huge ugly catalog photo but I can't figure out how to download just one page of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Dear sir!
> I'm a collector of Soviet wristwatches for more than 10 years.
> The dial is 100% original.
> On all original dials the inscription "Made in the USSR".
> The dial and inner frame of the same color are also a guarantee of authenticity.
> With best regards Alex.
> 
> So I guess if it's the right color and it says "Made in the USSR" it can't be a fake, right?
> 
> *- alexa_gromi*


----------



## Kukaruz

Hey guys,

I found a Pobeda on my local craigslistesque site and wonder if the Soviet really used black second hands on black dials.

The closest match I've found is in this catalogue, sporting a non-black hand.

Thx


----------



## schnurrp

Kukaruz said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I found a Pobeda on my local craigslistesque site and wonder if the Soviet really used black second hands on black dials.
> 
> The closest match I've found is in this catalogue, sporting a non-black hand.
> 
> Thx
> 
> View attachment 13085331


Keep looking, comrade.


----------



## schnurrp

audiomagnate said:


> Just a follow up. The seller has promised (I know...) to send me a correct dial and hands at no cost when he comes across them. Also Julian (poljot24.de) is selling NOS examples of my watch before it was frankened. Here's a great photo of one of his.


That seller's reasoning does not make any sense. A dial can be authentic but still not belong with the other parts of the watch. The key detail is the double minute marks. The watch is a franken and you should be able to return it for a refund if you want to. Tell the seller he can switch out the dial when when you return it and he finds "a correct dial and hands at no cost when he comes across them" and re-sell it. I'd open a case and return it just on principle.


----------



## SennaGTS

How about this WW2 Kirovskie?


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> How about this WW2 Kirovskie?


Looks good to me. Probably the second hand should be lumed, but this is minor.


----------



## Straight_time

There would also be the long-debated matter of plain vs. excavated wheels (being this a Chistopol factory production, I believe it should have the latter) but that's also minor considering that the watch appears to be in great shape. ;-)

If you buy it, don't forget to exercise the standard handling precautions for radium dials.


----------



## SennaGTS

Straight_time said:


> There would also be the long-debated matter of plain vs. excavated wheels (being this a Chistopol factory production, I believe it should have the latter) but that's also minor considering that the watch appears to be in great shape. ;-)
> 
> If you buy it, don't forget to exercise the standard handling precautions for radium dials.


What do you mean by plain and excavated wheels?


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> What do you mean by plain and excavated wheels?


Plain wheels on the left, "excavated" on the right.









Typically, plain wheels are associated with First Watch Factory production (and associated factories), while excavated wheels are associated with Second Watch Factory production (and associated factories). Early catalog evidence supports this wheel-factory connection.

As a result, there are those (like comrade Straight_time) that would go so far as to make it a rule: that is, 2WF/Factory '53'/Chistopol production *need* excavated wheels to be authentic. And there are those (like yours truly) who have a bit of a more forgiving view of which wheels can appear where. We've debated this many times before.

At present, there is unfortunately not enough evidence to definitely prove either one of us right or wrong. That much I can admit.

Comrade Straight_time would probably like to see your movement appearing a little more like this:









But the one on eBay wouldn't be the first I've seen with an unmarked movement and flat wheels:









I've got one as well (ignore the case, which has surely been replaced and has been discussed before):









At any rate, these wheels are easily-replaceable parts, so I'm sure we'll never be certain of the truth.


----------



## Straight_time

^ All he said. ;-)



> But the one on eBay (...)


My fault, I didn't search for the original ad when I posted... 
I'd like to add that IMHO $159/shipped is rather pricey (as eBay's BINs often are), specially for a Chistopol model. Unless you definitely want _this one_, and you want it _now_, I'd take some extra time and have a good look around. :think:


----------



## SennaGTS

Straight_time said:


> ^ All he said. ;-)
> 
> My fault, I didn't search for the original ad when I posted...
> I'd like to add that IMHO $159/shipped is rather pricey (as eBay's BINs often are), specially for a Chistopol model. Unless you definitely want _this one_, and you want it _now_, I'd take some extra time and have a good look around. :think:


Would you say that this watch may have experienced World War 2? Probably an extremely tough question to answer.

But why are the Chistopol versions less valuable?


----------



## mariomart

First up, I've already purchased this watch, but I'd like some additional thought and feedback please.

I rarely see any 3133 based watches come up for sale in Australia, and those that do normally carry a huge price ticket. However this one was advertised as "brand new" and came with a $150 delivered price tag, so I just had to jump at it before it went elsewhere.

Before buying I did a quick image search on Google and one of the early results showed the same dial in the same case on 2 occasions, so going off this rather quick result I pulled the pin and now its mine.

My only reservation about authenticity is the dial with the more inboard mounted applied indices. This is my first 3133 purchase, so if I chose badly I'm happy to live with that and learn from it.

So any feedback, good or bad, is welcome. Thank you in advance.


----------



## Patski

mariomart said:


> First up, I've already purchased this watch, but I'd like some additional thought and feedback please.
> 
> I rarely see any 3133 based watches come up for sale in Australia, and those that do normally carry a huge price ticket. However this one was advertised as "brand new" and came with a $150 delivered price tag, so I just had to jump at it before it went elsewhere.
> 
> Before buying I did a quick image search on Google and one of the early results showed the same dial in the same case on 2 occasions, so going off this rather quick result I pulled the pin and now its mine.
> 
> My only reservation about authenticity is the dial with the more inboard mounted applied indices. This is my first 3133 purchase, so if I chose badly I'm happy to live with that and learn from it.
> 
> So any feedback, good or bad, is welcome. Thank you in advance.
> 
> View attachment 13098347
> 
> 
> View attachment 13098349
> 
> 
> View attachment 13098351


To me it looks good other than the back maybe?


----------



## Straight_time

SennaGTS said:


> Would you say that this watch may have experienced World War 2? Probably an extremely tough question to answer.


The only thing that I' am rather confident saying is that Chistopol began dating movements in 1946 -so this watch should have been produced before that.



> But why are the Chistopol versions less valuable?


This of course is only my opinion, altough supported by some (long, actually) observation of the market. 
I presume that, since military models made at 1GChZ and 2ChZ are obviously older and logically survived war years in lesser quantities, it's more difficult to source good examples in nice conditions, and when it happens they are valued more; but please note that by "value" I mean "price" - I am not implying that Chistopol or Zlatoust models are less worthy historically.


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> Would you say that this watch may have experienced World War 2?


Forum wisdom tells us these "bald" movements (with nothing except a serial number) were hastily produced to meet growing demand during the war years. Something of a "everything non-essential must go" mentality.

I have no idea if there is any truth to this or if it is merely folklore, but I'd like to believe it.


----------



## SennaGTS

Thanks for the help @straight_time and @Dashiell.

So the general consensus is that it comes from the Chistopol factory, it was produced some time before 1946 because the movement is undated and the price is a little high.

I think I might keep looking if this is the case on the price and not get too excited. What are the clear differences between the First Factory and Chistopol versions?

I'm guessing this is a First Factory version, also available from the same seller. Although $500 seems a little extreme to me. Also, maybe the case has been replaced?


----------



## MattBrace

mariomart said:


> First up, I've already purchased this watch, but I'd like some additional thought and feedback please.
> 
> I rarely see any 3133 based watches come up for sale in Australia, and those that do normally carry a huge price ticket. However this one was advertised as "brand new" and came with a $150 delivered price tag, so I just had to jump at it before it went elsewhere.
> 
> Before buying I did a quick image search on Google and one of the early results showed the same dial in the same case on 2 occasions, so going off this rather quick result I pulled the pin and now its mine.
> 
> My only reservation about authenticity is the dial with the more inboard mounted applied indices. This is my first 3133 purchase, so if I chose badly I'm happy to live with that and learn from it.
> 
> So any feedback, good or bad, is welcome. Thank you in advance.
> 
> View attachment 13098347
> 
> 
> View attachment 13098349
> 
> 
> View attachment 13098351


Looking good to me Mario, last of the "Classic" case Sturmanskies circa 1997' I have also seen other examples with the serial number on the caseback.

Cheers...


----------



## Straight_time

SennaGTS said:


> I'm guessing this is a First Factory version, also available from the same seller. Although $500 seems a little extreme to me. Also, maybe the case has been replaced?


Case is 1GChZ style, therefore ok; it's possible that the had been either replaced or rechromed, but this doesn't raise any flag in my view. It seems 100% correct (I only wonder why it has 4 very little holes around one of the jewel caps).

If I am not mistaken it's listed at $359 shipped: not 500 then, but still...:think:
Well, I am not entitled to tell you what to do with your own money, but you might want to have a look at this recent post of mine and think whether buy, or keep on looking.


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> What are the clear differences between the First Factory and Chistopol versions?


Many subtle and not-so-subtle differences, I'd read some WUS thread on the Type-1 for details. But a major, easily-identifiable, non-replaceable feature is the click (small for 1WF, large for 2WF).

Some differences highlighted:











SennaGTS said:


> I'm guessing this is a First Factory version, also available from the same seller. Although $500 seems a little extreme to me. Also, maybe the case has been replaced?


Well, it's listed as $345, not $500 -- but anyway, it is more expensive because it has a small lumed second hand and a military-issue stamped dial. These are rare features.

Yes, it's a 1WF watch, and yes, the caseback looks replaced.


----------



## Luis965

mroatman said:


> Many subtle and not-so-subtle differences, I'd read some WUS thread on the Type-1 for details. But a major, easily-identifiable, non-replaceable feature is the click (small for 1WF, large for 2WF).
> 
> Some differences highlighted:
> 
> .


I agree with all the differences marked except for the size of the screws. After 1939 1MWF had them bolted from the bottom like 2MWF, so in war times both factories had the "small screws"
The color of the little disk on the balance was silver on 1MWF and yellow on the 2MWF.


----------



## SennaGTS

Thanks for all the help again!

I forgot to mention that it's around 500 Australian dollars. Despite the history of this watch and its originality, this is quite a lot to fork out. Yet, how often do watches like this become available?

I think I may need to do more research first. Thanks again!

Edit: after reading Straight_Time's unfortunate miss, maybe I should snap it up...decisions, decisions....


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> how often do watches like this become available?


When's the last time you saw one for sale?

Exactly


----------



## SennaGTS

mroatman said:


> When's the last time you saw one for sale?
> 
> Exactly


You're making this very difficult Dashiell. My bank account may want to have a chat with you.


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> My bank account may want to have a chat with you.


Get in line :-d


----------



## Ray Rich

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi All, I'm a beginner. But I already in love with vintage Soviet watches and started my collection!!!

Please, could you let me know what you think of these two?

VOSTOK watch, The gift from the Minister of Defense of the USSR, GILT, 1987 | eBay
























Vintage RAKETA Antimagnetic watch Lenin Medal USSR | eBay
























Thank you!


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Ray Rich said:


> Hi All, I'm a beginner. But I already in love with vintage Soviet watches and started my collection!!!
> 
> Please, could you let me know what you think of these two?
> 
> VOSTOK watch, The gift from the Minister of Defense of the USSR, GILT, 1987 | eBay
> 
> View attachment 13100165
> 
> 
> View attachment 13100189
> 
> View attachment 13100191
> 
> 
> Vintage RAKETA Antimagnetic watch Lenin Medal USSR | eBay
> 
> 
> View attachment 13100201
> 
> 
> View attachment 13100205
> 
> View attachment 13100207
> 
> Thank you!


Both look good to me although I've never seen a commemorative antimagnetic Raketa before and with those hands. The date on the komandirskie seems late but I was able to find it in a 1987 catalog:


----------



## Ray Rich

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> Both look good to me although I've never seen a commemorative antimagnetic Raketa before and with those hands. The date on the komandirskie seems late but I was able to find it in a 1987 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 13100859


Thank you so much for your time and expertise!!!
Someone already bought Raketa :'(
Where can I find these amazing soviet watches catalogues?


----------



## bpmurray

schnurrp said:


> Both look good to me .although I've never seen a commemorative antimagnetic Raketa before and with those hands. The date on the komandirskie seems late but I was able to find it in a 1987 catalog:


Agreed, but I'd also be skeptical of the engraving. It easily could have been added as recently as just last week. Without additional provenance, I'd consider looking for this same watch, but without the engraving at a better price.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Ray Rich said:


> Thank you so much for your time and expertise!!!
> Someone already bought Raketa :'(
> Where can I find these amazing soviet watches catalogues?


I wouldn't worry about that Raketa, it's interesting but probably would be impossible to authenticate. Now if it had the correct hands as these in a 1983 catalog it would be more interesting to me:









Here are comrade Antonov's compilation of catalogs that I have used: https://get.google.com/albumarchive/113098239036073221216 and I have a page of catalogs listing soviet-era pieces by factory and date on my collection website that you are welcome to use if you can figure out how to: https://sites.google.com/view/one-hundred-soviet-hours/catalogs. Welcome to the forum!


----------



## Ray Rich

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> I wouldn't worry about that Raketa, it's interesting but probably would be impossible to authenticate. Now if it had the correct hands as these in a 1983 catalog it would be more interesting to me:
> 
> View attachment 13102377
> 
> 
> Here are comrade Antonov's compilation of catalogs that I have used: LINK and I have a page of catalogs listing soviet-era pieces by factory and date on my collection website that you are welcome to use if you can figure out how to: LINK. Welcome to the forum!


Thank you so much for your help and warm greetings! I'm happy to be a part of interesting community and I like my new hobby more and more!!!


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear my friends,

What's about this Poljot automatic 29j? Seller says the second hand is red because this is a special version.

So, is it legit? What's about crown and second hand?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear my friends,
> 
> What's about this Poljot automatic 29j? Seller says the second hand is red because this is a special version.
> 
> So, is it legit? What's about crown and second hand?


A nice example, but not totally authentic. In my opinion, the crown is replaced (should be domed), the caseback is replaced (should be Cyrillic), and second hand is replaced (should be gold).

Unfortunately, when it comes to sellers, the "special version" should usually be a red flag.


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> A nice example, but not totally authentic. In my opinion, the crown is replaced (should be domed), the caseback is replaced (should be Cyrillic), and second hand is replaced (should be gold).
> 
> Unfortunately, when it comes to sellers, the "special version" should usually be a red flag.


I think it's this one, top left, from the 1980 catalog. Other than that I don't know anything else


----------



## schnurrp

mariomart said:


> from the 1980 catalog.


1970 catalog.


----------



## mariomart

schnurrp said:


> 1970 catalog.


Damn my fat Western Democratic fingers to hell ....... ;-)


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> from the 1980 catalog.





schnurrp said:


> 1970 catalog.


Split the difference, you two:


----------



## Straight_time

There are actually two informations (at least -I don't have time now to give a deeper look into it) which help better determining the age of this catalog:

1) Among official factory logos pictured on page 3, the one from 1MChZ is still the pentagon-shaped. 
According to current knowledge, the catalog can't be more recent than 1974 (in 1975 the logo was changed into the Poljot crown).

2) Model 3017/1171310 pictured on page 71 is a Sekonda-branded chrono with black dial and paddle hands.
Cross-referencing this data with available Sekonda catalogs, it can be seen that paddle hands models weren't available yet in 1968, and the first image of them appears on page 9 of the 1970 catalog (the infamous and ultrarare _no-telemeter scale _model 69).

Therefore the time window should be 1970-1974, IMHO. :think:


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> There are actually two informations (at least -I don't have time now to give a deeper look into it) which help better determining the age of this catalog:
> 
> 1) Among official factory logos pictured on page 3, the one from 1MChZ is still the pentagon-shaped.
> According to current knowledge, the catalog can't be more recent than 1974 (in 1975 the logo was changed into the Poljot crown).
> 
> 2) Model 3017/1171310 pictured on page 71 is a Sekonda-branded chrono with black dial and paddle hands.
> Cross-referencing this data with available Sekonda catalogs, it can be seen that paddle hands models weren't available yet in 1968, and the first image of them appears on page 9 of the 1970 catalog (the infamous and ultrarare _no-telemeter scale _model 69).
> 
> Therefore the time window should be 1970-1974, IMHO. :think:


Yeah, what he said!

Now we have to authenticate the authentication material?:roll:


----------



## audiomagnate

mroatman said:


> A nice example, but not totally authentic. In my opinion, the crown is replaced (should be domed), the caseback is replaced (should be Cyrillic), and second hand is replaced (should be gold).
> 
> Unfortunately, when it comes to sellers, the "special version" should usually be a red flag.


But the dial is original? That is one clean dial! How can you tell the case has been replaced? It looks like the one in the catalog, except for maybe the gap for the crown. Also, it's hard to tell from the catalog what color the second hand should be. Do you know that it should be gold plated from personal experience? I'm not challenging you opinions BTW, I'm just trying to learn. That's a great looking watch IMO.


----------



## bpmurray

audiomagnate said:


> But the dial is original? That is one clean dial! How can you tell the case has been replaced? It looks like the one in the catalog, except for maybe the gap for the crown.


He said caseback, not case. I think the case itself is correct, but when a dial is Cyrillic, its a general rule that the rest of the watch should follow. The watch you posted has a Cyrillic dial, but the caseback is in Latin/English. Does that make sense?


----------



## Straight_time

audiomagnate said:


> Also, it's hard to tell from the catalog what color the second hand should be. Do you know that it should be gold plated from personal experience?


That specific catalog reveals *everything* -including what color all hands must be. ;-)

- The codes 853/3, 851/3 and 850/3 in the description identify respectively seconds, minutes and hours hands.
- The "/3" part means that the finishing is gilded.

You can find a fully explanation of the codes on pages 5 to 14 of the catalog.


----------



## mroatman

audiomagnate said:


> But the dial is original?


Yes, looks good to me. If you look closely around the periphery, there is some dust intrusion along the edge of the crystal. This is a classic sign of natural ageing.



audiomagnate said:


> How can you tell the case has been replaced? It looks like the one in the catalog, except for maybe the gap for the crown.


Like bpmurray points out, I meant the caseback (which is stamped in English). This contrasts with the dial (printed in Cyrillic). The case itself is fine.

That said, I've had discussions with other members about these Cyrillic-branded Poljot 2415/2416s before. It seems an unusual number of those with Cyrillic dials have English casebacks. Maybe they're all replaced, or maybe the factory made an unusual exception. I'm honestly not sure.



audiomagnate said:


> Also, it's hard to tell from the catalog what color the second hand should be. Do you know that it should be gold plated from personal experience?


I hate to use my collection as an example because "of course I would say that", but after seeing a lot of these 2415/2416s, you begin to get a feel for them -- rounded crown, gold hands, stubby second hand, etc.











audiomagnate said:


> I'm not challenging you opinions BTW, I'm just trying to learn.


You should always proudly challenge the opinions of others here, comrade! That's how we all learn. I appreciate the questions.

Anyone here whose opinion can't stand up to basic scrutiny needs to....


----------



## Patski

I have my eye on a 24h Raketa... Anything out of the ordinary on this one?


----------



## svorkoetter

mariomart said:


> My only reservation about authenticity is the dial with the more inboard mounted applied indices. This is my first 3133 purchase, so if I chose badly I'm happy to live with that and learn from it.
> 
> View attachment 13098347


The dial is the first thing that jumped out at me. I have the same watch, but the indices are on the minute track, occupying the space that was clearly meant for them. Perhaps this dial has been refinished, and the indices reinstalled incorrectly?


----------



## mariomart

svorkoetter said:


> The dial is the first thing that jumped out at me. I have the same watch, but the indices are on the minute track, occupying the space that was clearly meant for them. Perhaps this dial has been refinished, and the indices reinstalled incorrectly?


No idea. I have however come across the same dial on 2 other watches using an online image search. I cant see any indication on the dial for unused locating holes for the indices, and the actual short printed second track markings above the indices seem to imply it was intentional. Perhaps it was a short lived release.


----------



## NuttySlack

Am I right in thinking that this is a fake dial?


----------



## Neruda

NuttySlack - yes! One of the give-aways is there should be an island on the north Russian coast.


----------



## mroatman

NuttySlack said:


> Am I right in thinking that this is a fake dial?





Neruda said:


> NuttySlack - yes! One of the give-aways is there should be an island on the north Russian coast.


Yep. This one.


----------



## mroatman

Gosh, I've never zoomed in on the dials so closely, but just look how crude, sloppy, and childlike the fake dial's map appears under high magnification:


----------



## elsoldemayo

The second hand looks weird too.


----------



## ThePossumKing

And the pole lines don’t cross...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NuttySlack

Did these silver dialled Poljot aviators ever have a black chrono minute sub-dial?


----------



## schnurrp

NuttySlack said:


> Did these silver dialled Poljot aviators ever have a black chrono minute sub-dial?
> 
> View attachment 13117139


I assume you are asking about the hand and believe it should be red but that wouldn't make me reject an interesting example at the right price.

That one appears to have had some flying time.


----------



## NuttySlack

schnurrp said:


> I assume you are asking about the hand and believe it should be red but that wouldn't make me reject an interesting example at the right price.
> 
> That one appears to have had some flying time.


I pulled the trigger with a little trepidation. Snagged it for 130 dollar, which seemed like a good price.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

NuttySlack said:


> I pulled the trigger with a little trepidation. Snagged it for 130 dollar, which seemed like a good price.


Did you have a discount, comrade? Or maybe you meant £130 (pounds)?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/POLJOT-nav...635177?hash=item467b9d9369:g:P3wAAOSwslda5h8~

If the black hand bothers you, it's a 5-minute job to repaint it 👍


----------



## NuttySlack

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mroatman said:


> Did you have a discount, comrade? Or maybe you meant £130 (pounds)?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/POLJOT-nav...635177?hash=item467b9d9369:g:P3wAAOSwslda5h8~
> 
> If the black hand bothers you, it's a 5-minute job to repaint it


 Yes I made a mistake it was actually £130 at the current exchange rate.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



NuttySlack said:


> Yes I made a mistake it was actually £118 at the current exchange rate.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


I think that's a good deal for one that looks like it just came out of the field and hasn't been messed with. I'd leave it just like it is as far as the minute hand goes.


----------



## Kluffy

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Hello everyone!

I have had this watch for quite some time tucked away in its box and always thought it was a fake since similar models had "Komandirskie" where it says Vostok on mine.
What are your expert opinions?





















Thank you for your time!


----------



## OrangeOrange

Not an expert, so you should take what I say with a grain of salt. What I think is that the watch is completely original. The second hand looks rather thin for some reason, but that doesn't mean it's fake. It's an Amphibia, not a Komandirskie.


----------



## Neruda

Caseback and document both point to this being a watch imported into the USA by a small company called TimePeace (or VreMir in Russian). TimePeace is best known as originally commissioning the Desert Shield models from Vostok, but also imported other regular models such as this.


----------



## Kluffy

Interesting.
I kept finding a model that was near identical but with no blue hue to it with Komandirskie on it.


----------



## schnurrp

I would say that's a rare amphibian and there's some value there to an amphibian collector, especially in that condition. The only reliable way to tell if a Vostok dive watch is an amphibian is look on the back for 200M (or 300M if you're lucky!).


----------



## MattBrace

NuttySlack said:


> Did these silver dialled Poljot aviators ever have a black chrono minute sub-dial?
> 
> View attachment 13117139


I may have a red minute sub dial hand with similar patina, I will send one back with your other 3133.


----------



## Kluffy

Well it says 200m on the back and I'm not sure what dictates the condition.
It has no blemishes that I can see and its spent all its time in the box.

How would I find a definite answer to it being a rare version?

Thank you for your help so far everyone.


----------



## Avidfan

Kluffy said:


> How would I find a definite answer to it being a rare version?


Try finding another, its not just the dial that's unusual but you've got the whole Vremir package, NOS condition, matching papers etc.

There should also be an anti-magnetic shield fixed into the case back, another scarce feature in a watch with a 2416b.


----------



## Kluffy

Avidfan said:


> Try finding another, its not just the dial that's unusual but you've got the whole Vremir package, NOS condition, matching papers etc.
> 
> There should also be an anti-magnetic shield fixed into the case back, another scarce feature in a watch with a 2416b.


Well I have tried to the best of my ability (it brought me here) to find another one.
Granted I don't know where to look when it comes to wristwatches, I am kinda out of options at this point.


----------



## mroatman

Kluffy said:


> How would I find a definite answer to it being a rare version?


It's really not, I would ignore all these "expert" opinions so far. I'm sorry to break it to you that way, but I wouldn't want you to stress any further about the definitive truth. Better send it to me at once for safe disposal. I'll PM you my address.


----------



## Kluffy

Other side of the piece of paper, maybe it will shed some light on things.


----------



## Neruda

Kluffy - Vostok produced hundreds of commissioned editions of their watches for companies, military units, conferences, sports clubs, political candidates etc. So, from the production point of view, there is nothing particularly uncommon about your example. All have the same movements, cases etc., the difference being purely on the branding. That it was made for export to the United States, however, does give it a rather special place at a fascinating moment in the history of the USSR/Russia.

There is little detailed information about TimePeace, the American importers. They claim to have ordered thousands of the Desert Storm variations, but in my opinion this was an optimistic exageration. Ultimately TimePeace disappeared without trace, probably lasting no more than two or three years.

So, in terms of rarity, how many of your submarine version were made? I've no idea; perhaps one hundred might be a minimum, perhaps a thousand or so? Either way it is uncommon compared to Vostok's output of regular models.


----------



## vintorez

Hi guys,

Could you please let me know if this is authentic?


----------



## Avidfan

Kluffy said:


> Other side of the piece of paper, maybe it will shed some light on things.
> View attachment 13119247


I think that's confused things even more!

But it could be as simple as Vremir / Vostok used Desert Shield paperwork with other watches.


----------



## mroatman

vintorez said:


> Hi guys,
> Could you please let me know if this is authentic?


One crown is replaced. The rest looks good. The unique hands are correct as per the 1972 catalog.


----------



## Kluffy

mroatman said:


> It's really not, I would ignore all these "expert" opinions so far. I'm sorry to break it to you that way, but I wouldn't want you to stress any further about the definitive truth. Better send it to me at once for safe disposal. I'll PM you my address.


Your kindness knows no bounds!


----------



## mroatman

Kluffy said:


> Your kindness knows no bounds!


😜


----------



## Jeroenskie

Dear comrades,

What do think about this type-1? I think the case dial and hands could be correct, although I know there is some discussion about the lume. What do you think? 

I'm not so sure about the movement (admitted, I know very little about these movements). Do you think it could be correct. 

I already have a type-1 with the more conventional lugs and black pointy hands but I really like the look of this one. 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> Dear comrades,
> 
> What do think about this type-1? I think the case dial and hands could be correct, although I know there is some discussion about the lume. What do you think?
> 
> I'm not so sure about the movement (admitted, I know very little about these movements). Do you think it could be correct.
> 
> I already have a type-1 with the more conventional lugs and black pointy hands but I really like the look of this one.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I think the case is too new for the rest of the watch, comrade, particularly the movement which is from the late 30s according to: russian_logos.


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> Dear comrades,
> What do think about this type-1?





schnurrp said:


> I think the case is too new for the rest of the watch, comrade, particularly the movement which is from the late 30s according to: russian_logos.


It also looks like a Chistopol case to me, though the movement is First State Watch Factory. That doesn't jive.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Ah too bad! 
Thanks for the help guys!


----------



## Straight_time

What they said. ^

Unfortunately the movement isn't completely original too as the balance bridge (& related parts) had been repaired, as it often happened, by swapping it with one coming from another watch -in this case, a Chistopol-made one.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Okay thanks everyone! This one will be a no.

But I have my eye on another one already! :-d
What do you think? It seems to have a serial number stamped on the dial.


----------



## bpmurray

Jeroenskie said:


> Okay thanks everyone! This one will be a no.
> 
> But I have my eye on another one already! :-d
> What do you think? It seems to have a serial number stamped on the dial.


I've only ever seen the number-stamped dial on a watch with lumed cathedral hour/minute hands. Also the vast majority of the stamped dials have the lumed seconds hand, although my understanding is that is a fragile part that is commonly replaced.

My point is, I am absolutely NOT certain of this, but my strong inclination is that the hands/dial are a mismatch.


----------



## schnurrp

bpmurray said:


> I've only ever seen the number-stamped dial on a watch with lumed cathedral hour/minute hands. Also the vast majority of the stamped dials have the lumed seconds hand, although my understanding is that is a fragile part that is commonly replaced.
> 
> My point is, I am absolutely NOT certain of this, but my strong inclination is that the hands/dial are a mismatch.


There's really not much we can be certain about with these wartime type Is but this particular one looks authentic to me even though I've never seen one quite like it before. I don't see lume residue on the dial anywhere and it certainly has spent some time in this state going by the wear. Since it's unlikely the dial had lume at one time I think the hands are authentic for that dial. That leaves the number and my thinking is that this is a rare, maybe early, stamping that was discontinued at some point save for the lumed dial/hands version.


----------



## Straight_time

Movement is datestamped 1-40 and is therefore still a 1GChZ production; so the case is correct.
I am not 100% sure if those "sword" hands were already in use by then; they for sure were fitted at a later stage on Zlatoust models. Maybe thay are correct after all; if not, it shouldn't be too complicated to source a good set -lumed or not. Unfortunately the original balance assembly had been replaced using a more recent Zlatoust part.

I think I have already seen dials stamped like that before (that is, numbered without any other logo), IMHO it could be legit. 
Given its general conditions it's maybe still a little pricey, but that seller could be open to proposals.


----------



## momosalah

Hi everyone, 

Been a busy few months but Im back and got some time to look around online for watches again!! Can you offer opinions on both the watches in this photo? Cheers


----------



## elsoldemayo

Other than the very worn crown on a watch in otherwise excellent condition, are there any other red flags on this one?


----------



## Straight_time

momosalah said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Been a busy few months but Im back and got some time to look around online for watches again!! Can you offer opinions on both the watches in this photo? Cheers


_Both_ watches are actually 3... :-s

Of course more pictures are needed, at the moment I could only say that the Luch and the Moskva look esthetically correct (I hope you are aware that those are 14k solid gold cases).

I wouldn't be just as sure about the Cornavin -don't recall to have ever seen a Soviet-made gold one before, and the case seems a late '50s/early '60s Kirovskie style, a blatant mismatch with the '70s dial.


----------



## schnurrp

momosalah said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Been a busy few months but Im back and got some time to look around online for watches again!! Can you offer opinions on both the watches in this photo? Cheers


Not giving us much to go on but I would say there's at least a chance that all are authentic and may well be housed in solid gold cases.


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> Other than the very worn crown on a watch in otherwise excellent condition, are there any other red flags on this one?
> 
> View attachment 13124647
> 
> View attachment 13124643


Looks good to me. Original crown may have been lost; definitely looks like a replacement crown.


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> _Both_ watches are actually 3... :-s
> 
> Of course more pictures are needed, at the moment I could only say that the Luch and the Moskva look esthetically correct (I hope you are aware that those are 14k solid gold cases).
> 
> I wouldn't be just as sure about the Cornavin -don't recall to have ever seen a Soviet-made gold one before, and the case seems a late '50s/early '60s Kirovskie style, a blatant mismatch with the '70s dial.


Yes, the dial on the Cornavin appears to be newer but how many 15 jewel central second hand movements were made in the '70s? The only one ever made, as far as I know, is the early 41-m. The case and hands appear to be the same as this one:


----------



## Straight_time

The shape reminded me more of this 1958 Kirovskie (image from the Net)









About Soviet 15j movements in the Seventies, I could think for instance of Zaria 2009 (nobody knows if that dial might have been originally fitted on a women's watch...). Also, Cornavin dials don't carry any information about provenance, so it's still to be determined whether this one actually came from a USSR-made watch.

But leaving this apart, if the Cornavin was real I think we'd have to rewrite the history of Soviet horology industry export... a gold watch, marketed *under a foreign brand and with a Latin alphabet dial* several years before the Soviets even thought of making the joint venture with Sekonda (this example still has wire lugs, while -I just checked- a gold Kirovskie from 1963 already had bar lugs)? :think:


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> The shape reminded me more of this 1958 Kirovskie (image from the Net)
> 
> View attachment 13124709
> 
> 
> About Soviet 15j movements in the Seventies, I could think for instance of Zaria 2009 (nobody knows if that dial might have been originally fitted on a women's watch...). Also, Cornavin dials don't carry any information about provenance, so it's still to be determined whether this one actually came from a USSR-made watch.
> 
> But leaving this apart, if the Cornavin was real I think we'd have to rewrite the history of Soviet horology industry export... a gold watch, marketed *under a foreign brand and with a Latin alphabet dial* several years before the Soviets even thought of making the joint venture with Sekonda (this example still has wire lugs, while -I just checked- a gold Kirovskie from 1963 already had bar lugs)? :think:


Nice re-write, hands belong to the Mockba.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Straight_time said:


> Movement is datestamped 1-40 and is therefore still a 1GChZ production; so the case is correct.
> I am not 100% sure if those "sword" hands were already in use by then; they for sure were fitted at a later stage on Zlatoust models. Maybe thay are correct after all; if not, it shouldn't be too complicated to source a good set -lumed or not. Unfortunately the original balance assembly had been replaced using a more recent Zlatoust part.
> 
> I think I have already seen dials stamped like that before (that is, numbered without any other logo), IMHO it could be legit.
> Given its general conditions it's maybe still a little pricey, but that seller could be open to proposals.


Thanks for all the help comrades! I decided to give it a try. The seller accepted an offer of $80 so that's at least better than the origami $130. Really excited how it'll turn out!


----------



## Patski

I'm sloooowly looking for a Kirovskie... I was looking at the Molnija Hommage and the K-43 from Meranom, and I honestly don't like the dials... The one from the Spanish forum would be awesome, but those can't be found anymore.

So I am looking for an original at a reasonable price..

Other than the second hand that doesnt have Lume, anything special about that one?


----------



## Kamburov

Deja vu?
Patski, go back 2 pages 
Jeroenskie already asked about this one.


----------



## Patski

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Kamburov said:


> Deja vu?
> Patski, go back 2 pages
> Jeroenskie already asked about this one.


Doh! Yeah, I just saw that, I do agree that the case isn't similar to others! I wish I would have known about the Spanish one! I have small wrists but I can't resist the call of the Kirovskie


----------



## ThePossumKing

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Picked this up last night on a (drunken) impulse. Really want a Slava big zero, but this looks like a cool companion for when I do find one. But is it legit??









Thanks in advance!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



ThePossumKing said:


> Picked this up last night on a (drunken) impulse. Really want a Slava big zero, but this looks like a cool companion for when I do find one. But is it legit??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never seen one like that before. I'm doubtful. It's missing its "made in..." information.


----------



## Patski

Here is a watch I'm looking at... Zim Railroad. Looks too new to be true?


----------



## schnurrp

Converted ZIM pocket watch movement, fantasy dial, and maybe Molnija wristwatch case or case = ?.


----------



## mrblitz

Hello

Could I have an opinion or 2 on this watch please? I have been looking for a red star Komandirskie for a while but don't want to spend too much. I'm not concerned about it not being a ZakaZ, but do the other details look ok? I'm not sure the caseback is original, why would a Soviet era watch have "waterproof" in English? Michele's website doesn't have a photo of this piece I don't think.

Thank you!


----------



## schnurrp

It's possible that one is authentic but you will have a hard time proving it. The bezel is questionable, for example.

Since you have found Michele's site why not search ebay until you find one that's just like one of the many he shows and save yourself some trouble?


----------



## Straight_time

mrblitz said:


> Hello
> 
> Could I have an opinion or 2 on this watch please? I have been looking for a red star Komandirskie for a while but don't want to spend too much. I'm not concerned about it not being a ZakaZ, but do the other details look ok? I'm not sure the caseback is original, why would a Soviet era watch have "waterproof" in English? Michele's website doesn't have a photo of this piece I don't think.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> View attachment 13134133


Owning a NOS example with box and matching papers from 1988, I can say that the caseback is actually in Cyrillic (the bezel is the 10/../60 model, though).

Also, seconds hand should be lumed; other than that, it's legit.

From the 1990 Vostok/Tento catalog:


----------



## momosalah

Hi everyone, 

Id like to ask your opinions on this watch. Thanks guys!!

I really like that 14k gold Moskva one but price is a bit steep so looking at this one instead. Really beautiful one too I must say


----------



## schnurrp

Looks good but I wouldn't be interested since it is from after the fall of the USSR. Also be aware that it's pretty small at around 34mm. Was sold with that band, evidently.


----------



## les

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Franken or?


----------



## Avidfan

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



les said:


> Franken or?


Les, see page 130 of 'Franken of the week'.


----------



## les

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Avidfan said:


> Les, see page 130 of 'Franken of the week'.


Thanks, I saw it after I had already posted on here, sorry my bad. I have posted my query on there.


----------



## Sansoni7

Is it legit?


----------



## Sansoni7

Repost...sorry.


----------



## mroatman

Sansoni7 said:


> Is it legit?


Yes indeed.


----------



## Sansoni7

Thank you *mroatman* .


----------



## mrblitz

Straight_time said:


> Owning a NOS example with box and matching papers from 1988, I can say that the caseback is actually in Cyrillic (the bezel is the 10/../60 model, though).
> 
> Also, seconds hand should be lumed; other than that, it's legit.
> 
> From the 1990 Vostok/Tento catalog:
> 
> View attachment 13135257


Thanks! I decided to order it as the price was very reasonable. I guess it shouldn't be too much of an issue to get the correct bezel and caseback at some stage.


----------



## mrblitz

schnurrp said:


> It's possible that one is authentic but you will have a hard time proving it. The bezel is questionable, for example.
> 
> Since you have found Michele's site why not search ebay until you find one that's just like one of the many he shows and save yourself some trouble?


Thanks very much Schnurrp. What do you think of this one? The bezel is still wrong but I think the other parts look OK


----------



## Patski

I bought that one some time ago, Franken or not, I like it, but would still like to get some infos!


----------



## schnurrp

mrblitz said:


> Thanks very much Schnurrp. What do you think of this one? The bezel is still wrong but I think the other parts look OK
> 
> View attachment 13141879
> 
> 
> View attachment 13141881


Agree.


----------



## Avidfan

schnurrp said:


> Agree.


+1 but note that the balance has been replaced.


----------



## Neruda

Patski - Troika was a Vostok line produced approx. 2000 - 2005. There are quite a variety of designs of cases, bezels, dials and hands but they don't seem to have been made in large quantities. Your watch seems correct in all aspects except perhaps the (Northern Lghts?) dial which appears to be a Komandirskie dial. Troika dials are usually marked as such, so I'm not sure if your example left the factory as such (quite possible) or the dial has been swapped later.


----------



## Patski

Neruda said:


> Patski - Troika was a Vostok line produced approx. 2000 - 2005. There are quite a variety of designs of cases, bezels, dials and hands but they don't seem to have been made in large quantities. Your watch seems correct in all aspects except perhaps the (Northern Lghts?) dial which appears to be a Komandirskie dial. Troika dials are usually marked as such, so I'm not sure if your example left the factory as such (quite possible) or the dial has been swapped later.


Thanks  I will look into that


----------



## mrblitz

Avidfan said:


> +1 but note that the balance has been replaced.


That's eagle-eyed! Why do you think so?



schnurrp said:


> Agree.


I appreciate the input thanks


----------



## Kamburov

mrblitz said:


> That's eagle-eyed! Why do you think so?


Good eyes, Avidfan!
mrblitz, the ballance is from a 2414 movement with bevelled edges. Notice the straight (90 degrees) edges of the rest of the movement, and then look at the ballance bridge edge again. Also check the movement in the Patski's post up the page. The ballance bridges are interchangeable, so no difference to the functionality of the movement, but the ballance is from another watch. 
For the right price I would buy it, but then I have both the right replacement bezel and ballance to bring it to its original state. You can use this as a leverage to negotiate a better deal. The watch is in fine cosmetic condition, and I would try getting the best out of this. 
Ivan


----------



## mrblitz

Avidfan said:


> +1 but note that the balance has been replaced.





schnurrp said:


> Agree.





Kamburov said:


> Good eyes, Avidfan!
> mrblitz, the ballance is from a 2414 movement with bevelled edges. Notice the straight (90 degrees) edges of the rest of the movement, and then look at the ballance bridge edge again. Also check the movement in the Patski's post up the page. The ballance bridges are interchangeable, so no difference to the functionality of the movement, but the ballance is from another watch.
> For the right price I would buy it, but then I have both the right replacement bezel and ballance to bring it to its original state. You can use this as a leverage to negotiate a better deal. The watch is in fine cosmetic condition, and I would try getting the best out of this.
> Ivan


Thanks for the explanation Ivan, I see what you mean now. I'm not sure I would have noticed that otherwise. The seller accepted my offer of £39 (GBP) which I thought was reasonable as the condition, as you said, is good. Do you know of a good place to buy old bezels or is it just a case of keeping an eye on online auction sites?


----------



## Avidfan

Kamburov said:


> Good eyes, Avidfan!
> mrblitz, the ballance is from a 2414 movement with bevelled edges. Notice the straight (90 degrees) edges of the rest of the movement, and then look at the ballance bridge edge again. Also check the movement in the Patski's post up the page. The ballance bridges are interchangeable, so no difference to the functionality of the movement, but the ballance is from another watch.
> For the right price I would buy it, but then I have both the right replacement bezel and ballance to bring it to its original state. You can use this as a leverage to negotiate a better deal. The watch is in fine cosmetic condition, and I would try getting the best out of this.
> Ivan





mrblitz said:


> That's eagle-eyed! Why do you think so?


Agree with everything Ivan says above, the first thing I always check when looking at a movement is to check all the bridges match (especially the balance), but a nice watch otherwise, and it's easy to get the correct parts from a cheap parts watch from eBay etc.


----------



## Straight_time

mrblitz said:


> Thanks! I decided to order it as the price was very reasonable. I guess it shouldn't be too much of an issue to get the correct bezel and caseback at some stage.





> What do you think of this one? The bezel is still wrong but I think the other parts look OK





> Do you know of a good place to buy old bezels or is it just a case of keeping an eye on online auction sites?


I just don't get it... why this fixation of swapping good bezels with wrong ones? :think:

I previously posted an image of model 341200, now here's model 341180:









Notice that *both bezels are correct that way*. Should we blindly trust the 1990 catalog, I'd suggest you to search for a lumed seconds hand instead...


----------



## Kamburov

Straight_time said:


> I just don't get it... why this fixation of swapping good bezels with wrong ones? :think:


Excellent! Straight_time, you just prevented me potentially ruining the watch with the advice I posted  Would be a shame, as it is in excellent condition.
Missed that catalogue page.
Ivan


----------



## mrblitz

Straight_time said:


> Notice that *both bezels are correct that way*. Should we blindly trust the 1990 catalog, I'd suggest you to search for a lumed seconds hand instead...


Ah, interesting thanks! This is such a minefield I'm getting in to :-s


----------



## Arizone

Kamburov said:


> Good eyes, Avidfan!
> mrblitz, the ballance is from a 2414 movement with bevelled edges. Notice the straight (90 degrees) edges of the rest of the movement, and then look at the ballance bridge edge again. Also check the movement in the Patski's post up the page. The ballance bridges are interchangeable, so no difference to the functionality of the movement, but the ballance is from another watch.
> For the right price I would buy it, but then I have both the right replacement bezel and ballance to bring it to its original state. You can use this as a leverage to negotiate a better deal. The watch is in fine cosmetic condition, and I would try getting the best out of this.
> Ivan


Bevel edges aren't always uniform, even the factory can use different parts.


----------



## Kamburov

Arizone said:


> Bevel edges aren't always uniform, even the factory can use different parts.


And then we have chaos. Which is the norm most of the time. But then we have the catalogs, and no mixed parts in them. Maybe what you say is true, but if I accept that, then anything can be considered as possible authentic. I've bought quite a few 2414 with mixed ballances and bridges (2414 brige on 2409, and vice versa), but never considered they came out the factory in that combination. 
The watch mrblitz posted is a fine condition watch, and Straight_time showed me that this bezel combo is authentic, but I would change that ballance the second I get that watch. For personal aesthetic reasons b-)
But that's just me
Ivan


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi you expert guys,

what do you think of this?


----------



## mroatman

thewatchadude said:


> Hi you expert guys,
> what do you think of this?


Broken second hand?

Rest looks good.


----------



## mariomart

Sometimes you come across a watch that peaks your curiosity.

Sometimes your sensibilities tell you it's just a franken folly of some well equipped back street workshop, but then there is a nagging doubt that takes root, the "but, what if?" stage of contemplation.

I purchased this watch for a massive $5.00 plus postage, and the reason I purchased it was to take a closer look.

It appears to utilise a commonish Komandirskie case and case back with a flat glass crystal, with what looks like a standard set of Komandirskie hands and crown.

However open up the back and within you will find a Slava 2414 movement with twin mainsprings trundling along with a low beat 18,000 rate.

This is not as simple as swapping out a Vostok 2414 with a Slava 2414 as the date ring on the movements are different diameters, so the date window will not line up properly.

This would necessitate the production of a dial with a relocated date window to make it all work.

I've provided a couple of photo's of the watch as well as a split screen comparison between a true Komandirskie Vostok 2414 and this watch.

A quick image search for "Vostok Commandor" throws off a few matching dial/movement examples, so it appears that they were produced in enough numbers to still be appearing relatively regularly.

There is one small telling feature that gives more weight to the Franken side and that is the Vostok curly "B" on the dial isn't quite right, and I doubt that the factory would miss something like that.

In my mind I feel that it's probably a 95% chance that it is Franken, "but, what if?" 

Over to the peanut gallery ;-)


----------



## Straight_time

The "B" logo seems quite suspicious to me.... :think: :rodekaart


----------



## mrvos

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I got this relatively cheap. Is it legit?

Is there a way to tell if its the Kosmos movement with a missing hand or a regular 29j movement with a franken dial.

Inscription says: To Lj Petrovic for 10 years of service in GSP Belgrade 1966. I've seen a few of these GSP Belgrade inscripted watches from mid 60s

https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_POLJOT-COSMIC-158821093.jpg

https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_POLJOT-COSMIC-158821105.jpg

https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_POLJOT-COSMIC-158821101.jpg


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mrvos said:


> I got this relatively cheap. Is it legit?
> 
> Is there a way to tell if its the Kosmos movement with a missing hand or a regular 29j movement with a franken dial.
> 
> Inscription says: To Lj Petrovic for 10 years of service in GSP Belgrade 1966. I've seen a few of these GSP Belgrade inscripted watches from mid 60s
> 
> https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_POLJOT-COSMIC-158821093.jpg
> 
> https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_POLJOT-COSMIC-158821105.jpg
> 
> https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_POLJOT-COSMIC-158821101.jpg


Although I've never owned one of these before I doubt if you would be able to tell conclusively from what's showing. The difference(s) would be most apparent on the dial side of the movement or removing the hands would exposed the receiver for the missing date hand, if it exists. I might be interested for the correct low price with the hope that a replacement date hand could be found, as long as I could return it for a refund if found to be not authentic.


----------



## mrvos

I will be picking it up personally so i can decide not to do it if it seems odd at the spot.

The watch hand shaft appears to be taller on Kosmos models, so if it is not tall enough - this is not a Kosmos IMO. What do you think?

http://www.ussrtime.com/images/big/0513F.jpg


----------



## mrvos

I will be picking it up personally so i can decide not to do it if it seems odd at the spot.

The watch hand shaft appears to be taller on Kosmos models, so if it is not tall enough - this is not a Kosmos IMO. What do you think?

http://www.ussrtime.com/images/big/0513F.jpg


----------



## schnurrp

mariomart said:


> Sometimes you come across a watch that peaks your curiosity.
> 
> Sometimes your sensibilities tell you it's just a franken folly of some well equipped back street workshop, but then there is a nagging doubt that takes root, the "but, what if?" stage of contemplation.
> 
> I purchased this watch for a massive $5.00 plus postage, and the reason I purchased it was to take a closer look.
> 
> It appears to utilise a commonish Komandirskie case and case back with a flat glass crystal, with what looks like a standard set of Komandirskie hands and crown.
> 
> However open up the back and within you will find a Slava 2414 movement with twin mainsprings trundling along with a low beat 18,000 rate.
> 
> This is not as simple as swapping out a Vostok 2414 with a Slava 2414 as the date ring on the movements are different diameters, so the date window will not line up properly.
> 
> This would necessitate the production of a dial with a relocated date window to make it all work.
> 
> I've provided a couple of photo's of the watch as well as a split screen comparison between a true Komandirskie Vostok 2414 and this watch.
> 
> A quick image search for "Vostok Commandor" throws off a few matching dial/movement examples, so it appears that they were produced in enough numbers to still be appearing relatively regularly.
> 
> There is one small telling feature that gives more weight to the Franken side and that is the Vostok curly "B" on the dial isn't quite right, and I doubt that the factory would miss something like that.
> 
> In my mind I feel that it's probably a 95% chance that it is Franken, "but, what if?"
> 
> Over to the peanut gallery ;-)


One of those mysteries, for sure. I would immediately see if the dial fits the movement. If it doesn't then it's an obvious construction. If it does that opens up a few possibilities to consider one of which is that some Chinese watches were made with Slava movements, I believe. At least it was cheap.


----------



## schnurrp

mrvos said:


> I will be picking it up personally so i can decide not to do it if it seems odd at the spot.
> 
> The watch hand shaft appears to be taller on Kosmos models, so if it is not tall enough - this is not a Kosmos IMO. What do you think?
> 
> http://www.ussrtime.com/images/big/0513F.jpg


Yes, it appears you should be able to see the date hand receiver and make a decision one way or another.


----------



## Neruda

Mariomart - there are quite a number of variations of your Commandor watch. I've seen blue, maroon and cream dials as well as different cases. Not at all sure, but is this for example a Vostok case?








Another relation to yours have a dial marked GLADIATOR. Same movement and same variation on the Bostok logo.








Technically I suspect these are fakes rather than frankens. I wonder if these have a Chinese connection, perhaps assembled in China or Hong Kong?


----------



## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> Mariomart - there are quite a number of variations of your Commandor watch. I've seen blue, maroon and cream dials as well as different cases. Not at all sure, but is this for example a Vostok case?
> View attachment 13146917
> 
> 
> Another relation to yours have a dial marked GLADIATOR. Same movement and same variation on the Bostok logo.
> View attachment 13146929
> 
> 
> Technically I suspect these are fakes rather than frankens. I wonder if these have a Chinese connection, perhaps assembled in China or Hong Kong?


Wow! Just took a glance here: https://www.google.com/search?clien...&biw=1920&bih=982&dpr=1#imgrc=CPKU85Nm-wT1YM: and they appear to have screw-in crowns and authentic-looking Vostok backs. May well be an attempted partnership between Second Moscow and Chistopol after the Fall. Glad I don't collect that era!


----------



## Kamburov

Does anyone know what that is?
Ivan


----------



## skipvel

Speaking of suspicious letter B's, is there a chance that this is legit? I would have thought it would not be worthwhile to make a metallic crinkle dial but I have never seen that font of letter B. Thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Does anyone know what that is?
> Ivan
> 
> View attachment 13148215
> 
> View attachment 13148217


For what it's worth, comrade, I've never seen one before. That's about all I can say about it.


----------



## Neruda

Skipvel - I've seen quite a few examples of this style of dial printing mostly with military themes, apparently from around the mid 1990s. Seems like they were printed using a different process to Vostok's standard dials, so there is a possibility they were outsourced. I've also heard rumors (can't remember details) that there may have been a business in Moscow offering custom dials for Vostok watches.


----------



## skipvel

Neruda said:


> Skipvel - I've seen quite a few examples of this style of dial printing mostly with military themes, apparently from around the mid 1990s. Seems like they were printed using a different process to Vostok's standard dials, so there is a possibility they were outsourced. I've also heard rumors (can't remember details) that there may have been a business in Moscow offering custom dials for Vostok watches.


Yes I've seen a couple of this style dial and as I remember they were all military. Because I didn't see too many I wondered about their authenticity. Another example of the kamaz truck with a different back is this one.


----------



## Peep Williams

Here's a case that's puzzling me.

the shape reminds me a lot of the "Old Ministry" but without the side shaping cuts. At the same time it reminds me of the "Tonneau" case with the shrouded lugs cut out, but the overall shaping of the lugs doesn't seem right for that, it's a lot like a modern 150, but obviously the gap between the spring bars and case is not as large.









































What do you think? Modified case? Or something I haven't seen before.


----------



## Kamburov

I doubt a swiss brand like Delma would go the Raketa way, but there it is, for $100 you can own it:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VERY-RARE-RAKETA-DELMA-Rules-for-exports-WRIST-WATCH-MEN-S/162019951974
I highly suspect there is no other watch like this in the whole world.
Ivan


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> I highly suspect there is no other watch like this in the whole world.


A true, true rarity


----------



## Kamburov

I asked a question, then I answered it. So I deleted the whole conversation with myself.
Ivan

I'll leave the watch here, as I like the dial.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Need your help identifying this one. It's got Tupolev's name on the dial, but I don't recognise the case and not familiar with the movement. Looks like a Zaria, but I'm not sure.
> Thanks in advance!
> Ivan
> 
> View attachment 13158453
> 
> View attachment 13158455


Here's an old thread about this Zarja-powered "Clipper" some believe is actually a lady's watch. Found in an incredible number of different dials but always with those hands, if memory serves.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/clipper-623789.html


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> Here's an old thread about this Zarja-powered "Clipper" some believe is actually a lady's watch. Found in an incredible number of different dials but always with those hands, if memory serves.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/clipper-623789.html


Thanks, schnurrp! It turned out I do have one of those big case, flat crystal watches in my stash, but never paid attention to it as it looks like a ladies watch (sparkling crystals and stuff). Not at all like your watch.
Never worked on these movements, as they are too tiny, and that hurts my eyes.
Comrade Tupolev got my interest, and the watch didn't look very ladies watch for a Zaria, with the aerospace styling.
Ivan


----------



## Peep Williams

Peep Williams said:


> Here's a case that's puzzling me.
> 
> the shape reminds me a lot of the "Old Ministry" but without the side shaping cuts. At the same time it reminds me of the "Tonneau" case with the shrouded lugs cut out, but the overall shaping of the lugs doesn't seem right for that, it's a lot like a modern 150, but obviously the gap between the spring bars and case is not as large.
> 
> PICS
> 
> What do you think? Modified case? Or something I haven't seen before.


After a bunch of very high tech shape matching techniques, I think I have deduced this is most likely an old style Tonneau case with the hooded lugs removed.

First off, the sides of the case match the Tonneau, and the back of the case matches as well.

Next we have some very quality outlines of the most head on and comparable pictures I could find of both the case in question, compared to the tonneau and the old ministry. As you can see the case in question is longer than the old ministry, and there is virtually no crown guard. Additionally, I think the lugs are 18mm.


----------



## mroatman

Peep Williams said:


> After a bunch of very high tech shape matching techniques, I think I have deduced this is most likely an old style Tonneau case with the hooded lugs removed.
> 
> First off, the sides of the case match the Tonneau, and the back of the case matches as well.
> 
> Next we have some very quality outlines of the most head on and comparable pictures I could find of both the case in question, compared to the tonneau and the old ministry. As you can see the case in question is longer than the old ministry, and there is virtually no crown guard. Additionally, I think the lugs are 18mm.


Makes sense. Someone's garage project, maybe.


----------



## Kamburov

Already bid on this one, but will appreciate your advice. It's a poljot sekonda with a cool lumed black dial and lumed hands. Looks good to me, just not too familiar with the sekondas.
Thanks in advance!
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Already bid on this one, but will appreciate your advice. It's a poljot sekonda with a cool lumed black dial and lumed hands. Looks good to me, just not too familiar with the sekondas.
> Thanks in advance!
> Ivan
> 
> View attachment 13164151
> 
> 
> View attachment 13164153


A nice little English school boy stolichnie, comrade.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Already bid on this one, but will appreciate your advice. It's a poljot sekonda with a cool lumed black dial and lumed hands. Looks good to me, just not too familiar with the sekondas.
> Thanks in advance!
> Ivan
> 
> View attachment 13164151
> 
> 
> View attachment 13164153


A nice little English school boy stolichnie, comrade.

View attachment 13164239


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> A nice little English school boy stolichnie, comrade.


Meaning it's a smaller size, I guess. Always miss that in the supermacro closeup photos. It's a beautifully designed watch, the question is would I wear this size. 
Thanks, schnurrp!
Ivan


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> Meaning it's a smaller size, I guess.


Yeah, it's tiny.

The photos remind me of a Bulgarian seller on Etsy who used to have some great stuff, but usually at steep prices. I see now their store, "sovietwatchesstore", is closed.









If they've made the jump to eBay and are now running auctions, I'd be most interested...


----------



## Kamburov

mroatman said:


> If they've made the jump to eBay and are now running auctions, I'd be most interested...


It's on a local antique auctions site, the seller is registered since 2009. He has only about 40 items, mostly more expensive, but a couple of soviets are auctions starting at 0.01 and I'm taking my chances. There's the other bid I'm going for, running currently at about $14. 
It may be the same guy, but doesn't like paying the Ebay and Etsy taxes, and handle international shipping. Recently I found out that the local market is very big on soviet watches, many collectors with good buying capabilities. Some may also resell them on Ebay, but bussiness with soviets here is good, many ways to avoid taxes, local shipping is cheap and fast. So I would understand why some sellers will move their stuff on local market. 
Also on Etsy and Ebay they have to resolve issues with buyers, money back guarantee and all that, while locally is much easier (and cheaper) handling that.
All this sit perfectly good with me when I'm on the buying side 
Ivan


----------



## Bostok

Kamburov said:


> Already bid on this one, but will appreciate your advice. It's a poljot sekonda with a cool lumed black dial and lumed hands. Looks good to me, just not too familiar with the sekondas.
> Thanks in advance!
> Ivan


Just received this today, less than 20 euros delivered from the UK b-) It's a small but very nice watch, I quite like it and will give it a clean when got some time.





















P.S. Don't have much time to post lately but we definitely have some common taste based on your posts since the beginning and lots of correspondent buys (luckily from different sources). I have a copper pobeda on the way for already some time, by the way


----------



## Kamburov

Bostok said:


> P.S. Don't have much time to post lately but we definitely have some common taste based on your posts since the beginning and lots of correspondent buys (luckily from different sources). I have a copper pobeda on the way for already some time, by the way


Bostok, congrats on your new buys! It may be a smaller watch, but still very cool looking one, isn't it? Now that you said it, I will have to backtrack your posts to steal some ideas 
I deffinately have some unexplained attraction to simplistic/military style/lumed/tool like watches, that smell of cigars/gun powder/martini.
Grown up men, we are still such boys 
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Yeah, it's tiny.


Here it is side-by-side with some others you may recognize:


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> Here it is side-by-side with some others you may recognize:


Looks like 15mm. lugs. Still a pretty watch.
Ivan


----------



## Bostok

Kamburov said:


> Bostok, congrats on your new buys! It may be a smaller watch, but still very cool looking one, isn't it? Now that you said it, I will have to backtrack your posts to steal some ideas
> I deffinately have some unexplained attraction to simplistic/military style/lumed/tool like watches, that smell of cigars/gun powder/martini.
> Grown up men, we are still such boys
> Ivan


Yes indeed, this is a Desert Shield, the Vostok branded variant, that is on its way also for a good cleaning 
I know it was discussed not so much time ago but happy to hear anyone's thoughts, I've always wanted a decent but genuine example (I know it's not the original series) , the dial seems a little bit more ''rough'' compared to others I've seen but hard to imagine someone counterfeiting a dial with a patina for a dirty watch sold less than 10 euros...


----------



## Neruda

Bostok - the faded red on the flag looks 100% genuine!


----------



## Kamburov

Bostok said:


> ... a dirty watch sold less than 10 euros...


Congrats, what a jackpot! I would gladly spend 10 euro on the SU 2416B only. I had an almost identical lucky purchase some months ago, and it's a kind of dejavu 
Agree with Neruda on the fading red stripes, consistent with the age and condition of the watch. 
Also I notice comrade schnurrp likes it, and that's a comment in itself 
I'm curious to see it when you give it a clean and crystal polish. 
Ivan


----------



## Avidfan

Bostok said:


> Yes indeed, this is a Desert Shield, the Vostok branded variant, that is on its way also for a good cleaning
> I know it was discussed not so much time ago but happy to hear anyone's thoughts, I've always wanted a decent but genuine example (I know it's not the original series) , the dial seems a little bit more ''rough'' compared to others I've seen but hard to imagine someone counterfeiting a dial with a patina for a dirty watch sold less than 10 euros...
> View attachment 13167957
> View attachment 13167959


For 10 euros it's a steal, but for aesthetic reasons you might want to change the balance for one with a chamfer on the edge, and also the crown looks to be from a komandirskie, but again an easy fix.

Otherwise 100% original and should clean up nicely.


----------



## Kamburov

Good eyes, Avidfan! I have a feeling I've said that before 
Ivan


----------



## Avidfan

Kamburov said:


> Good eyes, Avidfan! I have a feeling I've said that before
> Ivan


I think you have, I think I'll have to try to be less obsessive about matching bridges (but I can't).


----------



## Bostok

Thank you all for the kind and useful input, it is highly appreciated as usual.



Avidfan said:


> For 10 euros it's a steal, but *for aesthetic reasons you might want to change the balance for one with a chamfer on the edge*, and also the crown looks to be from a komandirskie, but again an easy fix.
> 
> Great point about the crown and I'll most surely try to change it but I must admit for the rest I'm a little bit overwhelmed as regard to both my English and mechanical watch level :-s A little diagram or drawn marker could come in handy to get the most of your proficient post :-!


----------



## Avidfan

Bostok said:


> Thank you all for the kind and useful input, it is highly appreciated as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> Avidfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> For 10 euros it's a steal, but *for aesthetic reasons you might want to change the balance for one with a chamfer on the edge*, and also the crown looks to be from a komandirskie, but again an easy fix.
> 
> Great point about the crown and I'll most surely try to change it but I must admit for the rest I'm a little bit overwhelmed as regard to both my English and mechanical watch level :-s A little diagram or drawn marker could come in handy to get the most of your proficient post :-!
> 
> 
> 
> Bostok, if you look at the bridge holding the balance wheel you'll see it has a straight edge and has probably been taken from a komandirskie, the bridges on a 2416b IMHO should all have a chamfer on the edge and all be matching.
> 
> It won't affect how well the watch works but just looks better for aesthetic reasons if all bridges match.
> 
> A 2416b with matching bridges:
Click to expand...


----------



## Bostok

Avidfan said:


> Bostok said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all for the kind and useful input, it is highly appreciated as usual.
> 
> Bostok, if you look at the bridge holding the balance wheel you'll see it has a straight edge and has probably been taken from a komandirskie, the bridges on a 2416b IMHO should all have a chamfer on the edge and all be matching.
> 
> It won't affect how well the watch works but just looks better for aesthetic reasons if all bridges match.
> 
> 
> 
> All clear, I must say you have very good eyes, has anyone already told you this? :-d
> Thank you!
Click to expand...


----------



## Avidfan

Bostok said:


> Avidfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> All clear, I must say you have very good eyes, has anyone already told you this? :-d
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> Think they have
Click to expand...


----------



## Kamburov

Saw this one and got intrigued bu the Buran dial and the "Watch&Clock Maker" case back together with the Vostok logo. I read the thread on the W&CM Vostoks for the Italian market, but didn't find a Buran KGB SSSR dial like this one.
Any of you guys seen one like it?
Thanks in advance!
Ivan


----------



## dutchassasin

I think the kgb one is legit, i know someone who has one with applied markers. just slightly different than that one. The small seconds hand is silver colour right?

but lets wait for the more knowledgable collectors to arrive.


----------



## Kamburov

Thanks, dutchassasin! Yes, looks like it's a silver second hand. It's usually black on white dial 2403, but in this thread (about W&CM vostoks) by an italian comrade asquinet I saw a similar model, with the same hands:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/italianosky-3-w-cm-watch-clock-maker-vostok-665668.html
Also I remembered mroatman's post, quite recently, about a Buran Vostok auto with papers, and it had the same KGB shield. After reading these I'm quite confident it's legit, and I very much like the retro military styling.
Anyway, there were 30 minutes left in the auction after I posted this, so I got it as the only bidder at about $30. 
It's just I don't seem to find another one like this on the net, for comparison.
Ivan


----------



## dutchassasin

Hi ivan, i found the picture i was looking for on FB. all credits go to Mr. Bob.


----------



## Kamburov

dutchassasin said:


> Hi ivan, i found the picture i was looking for on FB. all credits go to Mr. Bob.


Excellent! Thanks to Mr.Bob too! It'll be interesting to find out the story behind the production of these Burans and W&CMs. 
It's a most welcome quriosity in my collection.
Ivan


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> Also I remembered mroatman's post, quite recently, about a Buran Vostok auto with papers, and it had the same KGB shield.


Yes, surely part of the same series  Here's an example similar to yours:









My best theory is that these KGB watches were first produced in limited numbers for the German market (the German catalog page attests to this). But after all 1999 examples of each model sold out more quickly than initially predicted, the manufacturers decided to capitalize on the unexpected consumer demand. So they did away with the limited quantities and number-engraved casebacks, and widened their selection a bit to include different models and dial types. If I had to guess, I'd say your watch is an example from this 'second batch', let's say (but this is all merely speculation).

Many more examples can be found here: https://www.cccp-forum.it/mb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=511. Scroll all the way to the bottom of the first page to see them all.

By the way, very nice!! And at $30, I'm quite jealous


----------



## Kamburov

Thanks, Dashiel, very interesting! I was surprised I was the only bidder, as a regular 2403 vostok in this condition would usually generate more interest and higher bids. I was severely outbid on other bids (including the boy's black sekonda that went $55), but this one went unnoticed. I guess they just didn't know what to make of it. I guess that's the advantage of exchanging knowledge with you all, here in the forum. 
The germans, right? Now I see what they did with these. So it's shortly after the fall of the Berlin wall in 1998. The perfect place to market KGB stamped watches. Very smart  Obviously noone walked around with KGB watch before that, it would be like walking down the street with your parachute still attached to your back.
I will also give them credit for the design concept. Instead of going colourful and cartoonish (like the perestroika watches), they've done a very clean retro nomenklatura design (like the papers that go with it). Gives the whole bunch a very authentic feel. Also very smart 
"Checkist" ? Really? They had some sense of humor
Very cool, though
Ivan


----------



## NuttySlack

Could someone knowledgeable cast their eyes over this offering:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Military...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Is this a genuine early Komandirskie? I ask because it has a 2214 movement and I thought they had 2234 movements plus it has been on EBay for quite a while at a decent price and no one has bought it.


----------



## Neruda

Nutyslack - Movement looks dubious, with bezelled and non-bezelled edges. Also "Jewels18" may belong to an export model and not correspond with the Cyrillic caseback.


----------



## bpmurray

NuttySlack said:


> Could someone knowledgeable cast their eyes over this offering:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Military...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
> 
> Is this a genuine early Komandirskie? I ask because it has a 2214 movement and I thought they had 2234 movements plus it has been on EBay for quite a while at a decent price and no one has bought it.


The seconds hand is incorrect. I believe it should have a feathered tail and large-ish arrow tip. Even if the correct hand is the earlier iteration, it should still have an arrow tip.

The balance has been replaced, as can be evidenced by the non-bezeled edge compared to the rest of the movement.

Hour and minute hands are re-lumed.

I actually believe that this is correct as a 2214 non-hacking movement - the vast majority of my early Komandirskies are 2214's.

In all, I'd pass. You can find this model in better shape at a similar price, and it is not a particularly rare model.


----------



## Straight_time

NuttySlack - I believe that the main reason why it remains unsold is the dial, scratched beyond repair. No chance this watch could ever be posted in the "Before and After" thread and, as bpmurray says, it's not a rare bird that must be grabbed anyway anyhow.


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> I was surprised I was the only bidder, as a regular 2403 vostok in this condition would usually generate more interest and higher bids.


Another example -- never seen this packaging before. Cool!

https://www.subito.it/hobby-collezionismo/orologio-russo-paketa-kgb-reggio-emilia-220580957.htm


----------



## thewatchadude

Glad it's a post-soviet watch... can you imagine receiving a mini-casket signed by KGB in the ancient time? Given the post delay, you might have forgotten you ordered it and jsut feel like getting a frightening message!


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> Glad it's a post-soviet watch... can you imagine receiving a mini-casket signed by KGB in the ancient time? Given the post delay, you might have forgotten you ordered it and jsut feel like getting a frightening message!


Yeah, you'll be taken to room 101 



thewatchadude said:


> Another example -- never seen this packaging before. Cool!


Also ecofriendly and sustainable, ahead of it's time  As I mentioned, I'm impressed with the marketing side of things! 90 euro, wow!
Theres what I got this morning. No cool box but still...! The band was alright, but upside down, so I took it off. It's in near mint condition, and I will be wearing this watch with pleasure. Actually I like that black arabic numbers dial better than the other 2403!
Thank you all guys, for your feedback on this, I really appreciate it!
Ivan


----------



## Luis965

mroatman said:


> Another example -- never seen this packaging before. Cool!
> 
> https://www.subito.it/hobby-collezionismo/orologio-russo-paketa-kgb-reggio-emilia-220580957.htm
> 
> View attachment 13175083


Another model with the same case:
https://www.ebay.it/itm/orologio-russo-KGB/273193800303?hash=item3f9b9e926f:g:j6wAAOSwgeBadaR8


----------



## mroatman

Lol965 said:


> Another model with the same case:
> https://www.ebay.it/itm/orologio-russo-KGB/273193800303?hash=item3f9b9e926f:g:j6wAAOSwgeBadaR8


Great! That listing has a photo of the passport, showing a date of 1992. So we can confidently say these came _after_ the limited-edition German models, as originally predicted.

Photos for posterity.

View attachment collage.jpg


----------



## Kamburov

Lol965 said:


> Another model with the same case:
> https://www.ebay.it/itm/orologio-russo-KGB/273193800303?hash=item3f9b9e926f:g:j6wAAOSwgeBadaR8


They could've put some sawdust in those boxes and distribute them with ZIL military trucks 
Ivan


----------



## thewatchadude

Dear expert sirs, what do you think of this one? I think the flash hand is a characteristic of old Signal watches, but I have no idea whether the rest goes with this hand.


----------



## Neruda

thewatchadude - I suspect the hour hand is a replacement. I also wonder about the white lume - many examples have a more blue/green lume.


----------



## bpmurray

thewatchadude said:


> Dear expert sirs, what do you think of this one? I think the flash hand is a characteristic of old Signal watches, but I have no idea whether the rest goes with this hand.


Hours hand is a replacement, looks like its from a Soviet-era Komandirskie. Dial is in rough shape, and I can't tell if the lume is faded or replaced.

Here is my Signal for reference:

View attachment DSC_0782.jpg


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks to all fpr your feedbacks. Given the moderate condition of the watch the price looks too high, so I'll pass. The good thing is that now I know what I'm looking for!


----------



## kev80e

Any opinions on this? I'm fairly sure it's correct but seem to remember some fakes kicking around. Thanks for any help.


----------



## mariomart

kev80e said:


> Any opinions on this? I'm fairly sure it's correct but seem to remember some fakes kicking around. Thanks for any help.
> View attachment 13180199


I'm fairly certain it all checks out. I have a feeling that this auction will generate quite some interest


----------



## kev80e

mariomart said:


> I'm fairly certain it all checks out. I have a feeling that this auction will generate quite some interest


Thanks Mario , I wanted to be certain , as you say I think it will be popular . I've seen them about but usually in poor condition.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> Any opinions on this? I'm fairly sure it's correct but seem to remember some fakes kicking around. Thanks for any help.
> View attachment 13180199


Buy it.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Buy it.


Well if Schnurrp says buy it I better. At least I can blame you.


----------



## Kamburov

Spotted this all steel Poljot De Luxe, but ...Is this a legit combination?
No movement shot, though, and price is serious.
Ivan


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> Spotted this all steel Poljot De Luxe, but ...Is this a legit combination?
> No movement shot, though, and price is serious.
> Ivan


Not legit. Dial is a modern counterfeit.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-de-lux-2209-a-3851594.html#post36547754


----------



## Kamburov

mroatman said:


> Not legit. Dial is a modern counterfeit.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-de-lux-2209-a-3851594.html#post36547754


Looked wrong, couldn't put my finger on it. Shame about that steel case.
Thanks very much!
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

I'm thinking about this lot, and the last Poljot in particular. The first Luch is gone, the rest are appr. $40 each. The second Luch is slightly cheaper.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Ivan























the second luch's back shot


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> I'm thinking about this lot, and the last Poljot in particular. The first Luch is gone, the rest are appr. $40 each. The second Luch is slightly cheaper.
> Any advice would be appreciated.
> Ivan
> 
> View attachment 13187669
> 
> View attachment 13187673
> 
> View attachment 13187675
> 
> 
> the second luch's back shot
> View attachment 13187691


From what you've shown they all look authentic except for the second hand on the Luch.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> From what you've shown they all look authentic except for the second hand on the Luch.


Agree.

Personally, I'd wait for a little better condition. These aren't rare models.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Agree.
> 
> Personally, I'd wait for a little better condition. These aren't rare models.


Yes, and too expensive for a "before and after" project.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Looked wrong, couldn't put my finger on it. Shame about that steel case.
> Thanks very much!
> Ivan


Authentic Luch and Poljot slash dials have slashes with parallel straight sides coming together at the ends in a point; notice that that dial has slashes with curved sides not parallel.


----------



## kinaed

I've been keeping an eye on this one. I have two, but this one doesn't look exactly like the ones I have, nor like those found in other collections:








1. Lume outside the date window
2. The smaller hour markers all appear to be different sizes and the lume is not like the originals (this one having quite porous paint)
3. Inner chapter ring not aligned, presumably a simple fix but indicates inexpert work
4. Heavy/blotchy printing Слава/Сделано В СССР 
5. Apparenlty black splotchy paint on dial instead of brushed dark gray

So is this a redial or a legitimate variation?

-k


----------



## mroatman

kinaed said:


> So is this a redial or a legitimate variation?


Redial, definitely.

(In my opinion)


----------



## kinaed

mroatman said:


> Redial, definitely.
> 
> (In my opinion)


That's what I suspected, but as I've been out of the game for a while I wanted to make sure this wasn't a known variation. It's currently at €302 with 20 bids. Caveat emptor, forum members...

-k


----------



## kinaed

Urgh, double-tap again. Seems to happen when I use Quick Reply.


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> Yes, and too expensive for a "before and after" project.


Thanks to both of you, guys! I contacted the seller to negotiate a package deal. If not, I may still take that one poljot for some b&a fun. I've been piling stuff lately, so a clean up is imminent. It should ballance the accounts. 
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> Authentic Luch and Poljot slash dials have slashes with parallel straight sides coming together at the ends in a point; notice that that dial has slashes with curved sides not parallel.


Yeah, it looked funny, but I thiught maybe there's a model I haven't seen before. And I haven't, it just never existed 
Ivan


----------



## kev80e

Any ideas ? Not a case I've ever seen. Looks interesting though.


----------



## mariomart

kev80e said:


> Any ideas ? Not a case I've ever seen. Looks interesting though.


I don't have an answer, but the case is giving me vibes from "Vostok Century Time" range. Sorry but I have nothing else. Any photos of the case back?


----------



## kev80e

mariomart said:


> I don't have an answer, but the case is giving me vibes from "Vostok Century Time" range. Sorry but I have nothing else. Any photos of the case back?


Thanks Mario. Back and movement. Both fairly standard.


----------



## kev80e

mariomart said:


> I don't have an answer, but the case is giving me vibes from "Vostok Century Time" range. Sorry but I have nothing else. Any photos of the case back?


Thanks Mario. Back and movement. Both fairly standard.
View attachment 13188493
View attachment 13188495


----------



## mariomart

kev80e said:


> Thanks Mario. Back and movement. Both fairly standard.


Really interesting. With information provided it certainly looks like it comes from the Vostok factory. I'm not sure if the dial is original to the watch, but it would not be out of the realm of possibility. I like how the lugs have been positioned and drilled so low, making it look like a perfect candidate for a strap of some type, keeping it as close as possible to the wrist. My gut feeling is that it's probably from the late 80's to late 90's line of Komandirskie watches. They seemed to come up with a vast range of case types in that period, however I've not seen it in any of the known catalogues that I have access to. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a flat glass crystal, but hard to tell from the photo's provided. At the right price it would be worth a gamble and could clean up well enough.


----------



## kev80e

Seems original to me too. I've asked for a delivery price. Curious. Thanks Mario I appreciate your input.


----------



## kev80e

mariomart said:


> Really interesting. With information provided it certainly looks like it comes from the Vostok factory. I'm not sure if the dial is original to the watch, but it would not be out of the realm of possibility. I like how the lugs have been positioned and drilled so low, making it look like a perfect candidate for a strap of some type, keeping it as close as possible to the wrist. My gut feeling is that it's probably from the late 80's to late 90's line of Komandirskie watches. They seemed to come up with a vast range of case types in that period, however I've not seen it in any of the known catalogues that I have access to. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a flat glass crystal, but hard to tell from the photo's provided. At the right price it would be worth a gamble and could clean up well enough.


Curiosity got the better of me and I brought for £20 including delivery. Spent the day searching but can't find anything like it. Cheers Mario for your thoughts.


----------



## Kamburov

kev80e said:


> Curiosity got the better of me and I brought for £20 including delivery. Spent the day searching but can't find anything like it. Cheers Mario for your thoughts.


Kev, I've been silently following this and did some search, the result of which was nothing but confusion. Will be interesting if you share your observations upon receiving it. Like, is that besel fixed? I'm puzzled.
Ivan


----------



## kev80e

Kamburov said:


> I'm puzzled.
> Ivan


Me too but that's normal  . I will certainly share anything I find.


----------



## jonstrocity

Just picked this up. Dont care too much if its a franken watch or not just like to see if anyone knows more about it and about when it is from


----------



## Kamburov

jonstrocity said:


> Just picked this up. Dont care too much if its a franken watch or not just like to see if anyone knows more about it and about when it is from


Actually it looks legit! That's from the 1990 catalogue, you can check the description. Only inconsistance seems to be the second hand which is described as red. The movement is 2414A, just like in your watch. 








Congrats on your purchase and welcome to the forum!
Ivan


----------



## Avidfan

The movement has a serial number under the balance wheel so dates to Dec. 1984 or earlier, the case back also has a serial number which is wrong as it shouldn't be on both, and someone has coloured the lume on the second hand.

I was going to post the catalogue pic but Ivan beat me to it!


----------



## Kamburov

Avidfan, very observant as always! All I can add is "what he says" 

Here I posted a question, but found the answer in Dashiell's collection. So I scratched it 
Ivan


----------



## jonstrocity

Thank you for the help Ivan and Avidfan! if the second-hand isnt original I may have a go at reluming the hands at some point. I have another vostok on the way, I think I may be hooked on these old russian watches!


----------



## Kamburov

jonstrocity said:


> I have another vostok on the way, I think I may be hooked on these old russian watches!


 again, welcome to the club!
You will sort the hands eventually, but in the meantime you can enjoy your watch. A black dial komandirskie was the first watch that hooked me on collecting soviets. Witchcraft, that's what it is :think:
Ivan


----------



## Avidfan

kev80e, Did you see post #1638 on page 164 of this thread? It seems to have the same case as your new tankist but has a Slava 2414 inside.









I think it is one of the many experimental cases made by Vostok in the second half of the 1990's that never went into any large scale production.


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> kev80e, Did you see post #1638 on page 164 of this thread? It seems to have the same case as your new tankist but has a Slava 2414 inside.
> 
> I think it is one of the many experimental cases made by Vostok in the second half of the 1990's that never went into any large scale production.


I have a "Commandor" dial with Slava movement in a Komandirskie case as well, must have been a "thing" for some reason.


----------



## Chascomm

kev80e said:


> Any ideas ? Not a case I've ever seen. Looks interesting though.
> View attachment 13188449


I'd be curious to see this photographed from an oblique angle. It almost looks like some new method of click bezel, but with the bezel missing. But it is probably just decorative.


----------



## mroatman

kinaed said:


> So is this a redial or a legitimate variation?





mroatman said:


> Redial, definitely.





kinaed said:


> That's what I suspected, but as I've been out of the game for a while I wanted to make sure this wasn't a known variation. It's currently at €302 with 20 bids. Caveat emptor, forum members...


And just like that, a (terrible) redial sells for €532. eBay is still full of surprises. My deepest sympathies to the top bidder.


----------



## Straight_time

I have repeatedly bought from this seller, and actually some of my finest, cheapest (and authentic) finds came from him. 
To his discharge, I'll add that he also uses to be adamantine with his listings when a dial is aftermarket; so I'm inclined to believe that he might have been honestly unaware of this redial, or not knowledgeable enough to spot it.

But when it comes to such big money (for a Soviet watch, of course), I'd expect that people were more informed about what they're buying. 
I'm astonished seeing that there were 12 different bidders, 8 of which offered at least €300 while the top 4 were all willing to pay over €500: they all knew that the watch was rare and pricey, and no one was able to compare it with a confirmed authentic example from some known collection?
Ok, there are eBay and Paypal's protection, but still... rather than offering symphaties, shouldn't we maybe blame them for their inconsiderate offers instead? :think: :roll:


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> I have a "Commandor" dial with Slava movement in a Komandirskie case as well, must have been a "thing" for some reason.


mariomart, I think these are either the result of a now forgotten Slava / Vostok collaboration or the product of a late 1990's entrepreneur who obtained quite a large quantity of Slava 2414 movements and cases, crowns and case backs from Vostok, using his own unique dials to complete the watch, most like yours seem to have the 'big bird' case back which was introduced around 1996/97.


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> rather than offering symphaties, shouldn't we maybe blame them for their inconsiderate offers instead? :think: :roll:


Well, those "deepest sympathies" would be offered only with tongue planted firmly in cheek. But anyway, you're right. A little research goes a long way.

Even kinead, a well-seasoned veteran, was smart enough to simply double-check. It seems none of the top bidders cared enough to bother.


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Well, those "deepest sympathies" would be offered only with tongue planted firmly in cheek. But anyway, you're right. A little research goes a long way.
> 
> Even kinead, a well-seasoned veteran, was smart enough to simply double-check. It seems none of the top bidders cared enough to bother.


Wow !!!

That's quite a final sale amount. Perhaps it's a missing Picasso? ;-)


----------



## kev80e

Avidfan said:


> kev80e, Did you see post #1638 on page 164 of this thread? It seems to have the same case as your new tankist but has a Slava 2414 inside.
> 
> View attachment 13191261
> 
> 
> I think it is one of the many experimental cases made by Vostok in the second half of the 1990's that never went into any large scale production.





mariomart said:


> I have a "Commandor" dial with Slava movement in a Komandirskie case as well, must have been a "thing" for some reason.
> 
> View attachment 13191383





Chascomm said:


> I'd be curious to see this photographed from an oblique angle. It almost looks like some new method of click bezel, but with the bezel missing. But it is probably just decorative.


Thanks very much guys. The plot thickens. Maybe some sort of collaboration or as suggested someone got some cases . I had a case like Mario's before but with a vostok 2414 in it and a standard komandirskie crystal. Same transition period .
The bezel appears fixed to me and purely decorative , really serves no purpose as a,rotating one. 
We may never really know but I like the quirky and unusual.


----------



## Avidfan

kev80e said:


> We may never really know but I like the quirky and unusual.


So do I, they all seem to date to the 1994-2000 era where there are no known Vostok catalogues.


----------



## NuttySlack

I've seen this Buran chronograph on the bay and thought it odd that it didn't have cathedral hands. Have these hands been replaced?


----------



## NuttySlack

.


----------



## Neruda

Early Burans from the late Soviet period had similar hands, however my impression is that your watch is a modern assembly. Here's one marked "made in USSR" which I think is probably original, as you see the hands aren't quite identical:


----------



## Neruda

To add to my first impressions, it seems that these Burans with hour numbers have cathedral hands while those with hour dots like yours do have the simpler hands... so it may well be OK! Can you post photos of the caseback and movement?


----------



## NuttySlack

Neruda said:


> To add to my first impressions, it seems that these Burans with hour numbers have cathedral hands while those with hour dots like yours do have the simpler hands... so it may well be OK! Can you post photos of the caseback and movement?


Thanks. I haven't got the watch in my possession, and the seller hasn't posted a movement shot.


----------



## Neruda

Caseback looks good for a date around 1992. If so, I'm guessing the movement will be marked "SU 3133".


----------



## Kamburov

Comrades, anyone familiar with this one?
Thanks in advance!
Ivan


----------



## Straight_time

Isn't that a Vostok 771 case? :think:


----------



## Kamburov

Straight_time said:


> Isn't that a Vostok 771 case? :think:


That's exactly what I thought, Straight_time. It's quite expensive, so decided to post it here, just in case there's something I'm missing. 
I thought it's a franken, but I wasn't sure.
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Case looks too modern for the early '60s.


----------



## Kamburov

Yes, it most deffinately looks like a vostok case, but the automatic back got me confused. Somehow it fits, as I don't recall seeing auto in that case. 
The "franken of the week" seems the more appropriate place to post this, I guess. Starting price of $80?
Thanks both of you!
Ivan


----------



## mroatman

Kamburov said:


> "franken of the week" seems the more appropriate place to post this


I agree. I've only seen one case that I'd consider legitimate for a Rodina, and it looks nothing like that one.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5199202979622013234&oid=113098239036073221216









Caseback could be from a Slava.


----------



## Chascomm

Would a Rodina movement fit such a case designed for a 22mm movement? The Rodina main plate is 24mm, but the rotor (and also the spacer) extends out to maybe 28mm.


----------



## mroatman

Chascomm said:


> Would a Rodina movement fit such a case designed for a 22mm movement?


The original configuration relies on a big movement spacer. Removing that, I think there should be plenty of room.


----------



## Timepiece Tenderfoot

mroatman said:


> And just like that, a (terrible) redial sells for €532. eBay is still full of surprises. My deepest sympathies to the top bidder.
> 
> View attachment 13191857


Looks like he found another "Slava Amphibia". Its a different watch, but the same ......, er I mean, suspect dial.

Original listing




















...and the new listing




















Seems like a bargain at 445 Euros


----------



## mroatman

Timepiece Tenderfoot said:


> Looks like he found another "Slava Amphibia". Its a different watch, but the same ......, er I mean, suspect dial.


🤢


----------



## kinaed

Timepiece Tenderfoot said:


> Looks like he found another "Slava Amphibia". Its a different watch, but the same ......, er I mean, suspect dial.


Same seller?

-k


----------



## Timepiece Tenderfoot

kinaed said:


> Same seller?
> 
> -k


Yup


----------



## mrblitz

Zdravstvujtye friends!

Could I please have some opinions on this piece? Condition looks very good, too good??


----------



## Avidfan

Here it is in the 1990 Vostok Tento catalogue:









Second hand doesn't match catalogue description but otherwise it looks ok.


----------



## 103ssv

wouldn't be sure, it is missing the red/orange triangle...


----------



## Avidfan

I wouldn't worry too much about the second hand as either red paint or nickel finish seem to be OK. 

Lack of a serial number on the case back could mean it's early post-Soviet production or the case back has been swapped.


----------



## Avidfan

103ssv said:


> wouldn't be sure, it is missing the red/orange triangle...


I'm not sure now, but I think these are known to fade.


----------



## mroatman

mrblitz said:


> Zdravstvujtye friends!
> Could I please have some opinions on this piece? Condition looks very good, too good??


Hands are repainted. Rest looks OK to me.


----------



## mrblitz

Yes, the caseback is missing the serial number I expected to see. Looking at reference photos, I think the seconds hand could be ok - the triangle too, see Michele's photo


----------



## Avidfan

mrblitz said:


> Yes, the caseback is missing the serial number I expected to see. Looking at reference photos, I think the seconds hand could be ok - the triangle too, see Michele's photo
> 
> View attachment 13216173


Yes, I think the triangle is just faded, and the second hand is probably OK too, they randomly seem to have either a nickel or red paint finish.

Didn't spot the paint instead of lume on the hands though, obvious now.


----------



## Xspect

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Is this watch legit 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401540494183?ViewItem=&item=401540494183


----------



## Dub Rubb

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Xspect said:


> Is this watch legit
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/401540494183?ViewItem=&item=401540494183


As little as I know about Raketa, I would say no. With all that cryllic on the dial I don't know why it would say "made in USSR". Just a feeling and I am sure someone with more knowledge will chime in, but that is usually a bad sign in my experience. However, I could be very wrong and nobody can know all the things about all the watches.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Xspect said:


> Is this watch legit [/URL]
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/401540494183?ViewItem=&item=401540494183


It's legit -- a rare "Big Zero" variant for the Italian market.

Plenty of references for this one. Google "Slava Big Zero" and see for yourself. Two case styles were produced.











Dub Rubb said:


> As little as I know about Raketa, I would say no. With all that cryllic on the dial I don't know why it would say "made in USSR".


It's Slava, not Raketa. The dial says "Сделано в СССР" which is correct ;-)


----------



## Dub Rubb

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> It's legit -- a rare "Big Zero" variant for the Italian market.
> 
> Plenty of references for this one. Google "Slava Big Zero" and see for yourself. Two case styles were produced.
> 
> View attachment 13217355
> 
> 
> It's Slava, not Raketa. The dial says "Сделано в СССР" which is correct ;-)


Okay, I just clicked the link and looked at the pretty pictures and didn't realize that it redirected me to similar products. Was I at least right about the one it shows me?









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Xspect

Thanks for the feedback guys. I brought the watch. Will post pics of it when I get it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Dub Rubb said:


> Okay, I just clicked the link and looked at the pretty pictures and didn't realize that it redirected me to similar products. Was I at least right about the one it shows me?]


The dial is actually correct (one of the very rare few times that a mix of Cyrillic and English is a-okay). But the hands should be thicker, as per the regular 'Big Zero'. Partial credit


----------



## kev80e

A while ago I got a 31659 with a fake dial. Would this be a suitable replacement? Any opinions gratefully received.


----------



## schnurrp

Looks good to me:















Wear around the edge and at the small minute counter is evidence it's not fresh off the duplicator's pad printer.









Nice find!


----------



## MattBrace

kev80e said:


> A while ago I got a 31659 with a fake dial. Would this be a suitable replacement? Any opinions gratefully received.


Kev, I think Paul has pretty much ticked the boxes, did your movement have a date stamp on the balance?

Cheers...


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me:
> 
> View attachment 13226143
> View attachment 13226145
> 
> 
> Wear around the edge and at the small minute counter is evidence it's not fresh off the duplicator's pad printer.
> 
> View attachment 13226157
> 
> 
> Nice find!


Thanks Paul I always like a second opinion.



MattBrace said:


> Kev, I think Paul has pretty much ticked the boxes, did your movement have a date stamp on the balance?
> 
> Cheers...


No date stamp on mine. I looked on Polmax site and under 1986 this dial is shown but no date stamp? I did think it went with a date stamp but still better than the one I have , and half the price of the o lynch other one on ebay.


----------



## MattBrace

kev80e said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good to me:
> 
> View attachment 13226143
> View attachment 13226145
> 
> 
> Wear around the edge and at the small minute counter is evidence it's not fresh off the duplicator's pad printer.
> 
> View attachment 13226157
> 
> 
> Nice find!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Paul I always like a second opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> MattBrace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kev, I think Paul has pretty much ticked the boxes, did your movement have a date stamp on the balance?
> 
> Cheers...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No date stamp on mine. I looked on Polmax site and under 1986 this dial is shown but no date stamp? I did think it went with a date stamp but still better than the one I have , and half the price of the o lynch other one on ebay.
Click to expand...

Not all movements had a date stamp. So your in luck and as you say this is a much better solution. Great find...


----------



## kev80e

Thanks for clearing that up Matt , much appreciated , I was a bit confused as usual.


----------



## MattBrace

kev80e said:


> I was a bit confused as usual.


I think you underestimate yourself, keep up the good work...


----------



## kev80e

I found this stunning dial poljot . Not one I've seen before . Could do with a more knowledgeable opinion. Thanks for any help.


----------



## Kamburov

Saw this in the 1972 catalog. Looks blackish here, though








also here


----------



## kev80e

Kamburov said:


> Saw this in the 1972 catalog. Looks blackish here, though
> View attachment 13232415
> 
> 
> also here
> View attachment 13232429


Thanks. It's the dial colour that both attracted and concerns me.


----------



## Kamburov

kev80e said:


> Thanks. It's the dial colour that both attracted and concerns me.


Hopefully someone finds a colour picture, as obviously it was done in another dark colour, different from black (b&w cat.). 
I agree it's very attractive. It feels right to me.
Actually, check Dashiell's collection, the black one has a dark red hue. This one may be sun faded. The other model is an olive colour.
https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/poljot?lightbox=dataItem-j3vm3csq


----------



## kev80e

Kamburov said:


> Hopefully someone finds a colour picture, as obviously it was done in another dark colour, different from black (b&w cat.).
> I agree it's very attractive. It feels right to me.
> Actually, check Dashiell's collection, the black one has a dark red hue. This one may be sun faded. The other model is an olive colour.
> https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/poljot?lightbox=dataItem-j3vm3csq


Thanks very much fading could well explain the colour. I agree it does feel right except maybe the crown. A small detail.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> I found this stunning dial poljot . Not one I've seen before . Could do with a more knowledgeable opinion. Thanks for any help.
> View attachment 13232337
> 
> View attachment 13232339
> 
> View attachment 13232341


There's this one, upper right, from a 1972 combined catalog. I would not doubt the authenticity of that dial regardless as it seems to have all the correct elements. I haven't seen a reproduction "slash" dial yet that gets it right like that one.


----------



## AGAPITO

Hello, comrades. If possible, although I know that it seems the chronometer and second hands are placed in the sub-sphere that do not correspond, I wanted to ask you about this 31659.

Do you think the watch is authentic?
Do you think it is Soviet or manufactured in the Russian period?
Can the chronograph and seconds hands be moved and placed in the right place without problems? 
Do you think the case is steel made? Or chromed?
What do you think the price of this watch can reasonably be?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## AGAPITO

I have noticed a detail. The watch does not have one of the screws that it should have, although I think it should not affect its good working. Do you think it's worth your purchase?


----------



## AGAPITO

I have noticed a detail. The watch does not have one of the screws that it should have, although I think it should not affect its good working. Do you think it's worth your purchase?

View attachment 13236041


----------



## AGAPITO

Sorry, I repeated the comment.


----------



## MattBrace

AGAPITO said:


> Hello, comrades. If possible, although I know that it seems the chronometer and second hands are placed in the sub-sphere that do not correspond, I wanted to ask you about this 31659.
> 
> Do you think the watch is authentic?
> Do you think it is Soviet or manufactured in the Russian period?
> Can the chronograph and seconds hands be moved and placed in the right place without problems?
> Do you think the case is steel made? Or chromed?
> What do you think the price of this watch can reasonably be?
> 
> Thank you in advance.
> 
> View attachment 13234507
> 
> 
> View attachment 13234509
> 
> 
> View attachment 13234511
> 
> 
> View attachment 13234513


Do you think the watch is authentic? Yes
Do you think it is Soviet or manufactured in the Russian period? 1990 Late Soviet
Can the chronograph and seconds hands be moved and placed in the right place without problems? Yes
Do you think the case is steel made? Or chromed? Stainless Steel Case
What do you think the price of this watch can reasonably be? £100-120 GBP

It needs some work but can be sorted out, as long as its in working order and still hacks, there are better examples out there.

Cheers...


----------



## AGAPITO

Thank you MattBrace. I thought it was a more valuable watch. Do you know any other examples? Some other examples that I have seen already have a price of about 350 dollars and even more.


----------



## dutchassasin

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you MattBrace. I thought it was a more valuable watch. Do you know any other examples? Some other examples that I have seen already have a price of about 350 dollars and even more.


a decent example costs around the 200$ mark if taken into account recently sold examples on ebay. 
make sure to authenticate it here as there are some dodgy dials out there.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> There's this one, upper right, from a 1972 combined catalog. I would not doubt the authenticity of that dial regardless as it seems to have all the correct elements. I haven't seen a reproduction "slash" dial yet that gets it right like that one.
> 
> View attachment 13232771


Thanks Paul I appreciate your excellent eye. I will see what I can do price.


----------



## AGAPITO

dutchassasin said:


> a decent example costs around the 200$ mark if taken into account recently sold examples on ebay.
> make sure to authenticate it here as there are some dodgy dials out there.


Thank you very much. I agree, I think you´re right, but only MattBrace has expressed his opinion about the authenticity of this watch.

Any comment is always helpful, and I will appreciate any opinion that any of you can give. And in the sense that you want, because it is better to read an opinion, than to see no comments.

Is there someone else who wants to comment on the watch?

Of course thanks in advance.


----------



## miquel99

Hi Agapito, in my opinion the watch seems correct. the datary font, hands, movement... the case seems inox too but maybe with a better picture... its important, you need ask to the seller if the stop seconds its in working condition!!

Sure you know this link

Poljot Sturmanskie 31659


----------



## AGAPITO

miquel99 said:


> Hi Agapito, in my opinion the watch seems correct. the datary font, hands, movement... the case seems inox too but maybe with a better picture... its important, you need ask to the seller if the stop seconds its in working condition!!
> 
> Sure you know this link
> 
> Poljot Sturmanskie 31659


Thank you very much comrade.

Well, the watch would be 100% original; it works 100% (obviously it will be necessary to make some kind of revision -especially cleaning-), I think it belonged to a military man, and its cost is 180 USD plus shipping costs.

Everything seems to coincide in the data that Mattbrace and you mention, and with the link of the Polmax website (Poljot Sturmanskie 31659) to which you refer.

But I don´t know these 31659 watches. Is a good or reasonable price?


----------



## audiomagnate

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you very much comrade.
> 
> Well, the watch would be 100% original; it works 100% (obviously it will be necessary to make some kind of revision -especially cleaning-), I think it belonged to a military man, and its cost is 180 USD plus shipping costs.
> 
> Everything seems to coincide in the data that Mattbrace and you mention, and with the link of the Polmax website (Poljot Sturmanskie 31659) to which you refer.
> 
> But I don´t know these 31659 watches. Is a good or reasonable price?


I would buy it for that much, especially now that it's been given the F10 seal of approval.


----------



## AGAPITO

audiomagnate said:


> I would buy it for that much, especially now that it's been given the F10 seal of approval.


Thank you, comrade. I forgot a detail that any of you might consider important: the seller is not Ukrainian.

This is a great forum: it is very difficult to express an opinion about the authenticity of a clock based on some images, and yet, among all we are getting it.


----------



## surefiresolid

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi all, I found this beautiful watch and have questions about it's authenticity. Unfortunately the seller does not have any movement pictures. The band isn't original. Any info on this one? Much appreciated.


----------



## miquel99

Nice watch. i have a little suspect for the crown... i think will be a little rounded









My olimpic version


----------



## surefiresolid

Thank you for your reply


----------



## AGAPITO

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



surefiresolid said:


> Hi all, I found this beautiful watch and have questions about it's authenticity. Unfortunately the seller does not have any movement pictures. The band isn't original. Any info on this one? Much appreciated.
> View attachment 13242579
> View attachment 13242577


The watch should have a 2409 movement inside, but beware, there could be the 2409 original, or even a 2414 inside, although this would not affect the operation of the watch. As the dial indicates, it would be an export version, manufactured very late in the 70s or already in the 80s. The watch is well preserved.

I do not dare to speak about the authenticity of the crown, but perhaps I would appreciate a detail, and is that the crown seems to have some wear, so in any case, it does not seem a recent replacement ... if the price is reasonable , maybe I would buy it.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



kev80e said:


> I agree it does feel right except maybe the crown. A small detail.


Agreed. All original except the crown.

It's an unusual dial color, but I don't think it's faded. Our buddy Yavor recently sold this one (w/ correct crown, in my opinion). It wasn't cheap.


----------



## VWatchie

Comrades! What would be a reasonable price for this Raketa ($20 shipping fee)? I have no idea whether it is legit or not, but it sure looks genuine to me? According to the seller, case and crown show no visible wear but the watch doesn't tick unless subjected to some mild violence.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Agreed. All original except the crown.
> 
> It's an unusual dial color, but I don't think it's faded. Our buddy Yavor recently sold this one (w/ correct crown, in my opinion). It wasn't cheap.
> 
> View attachment 13245745


Sorry only just spotted your reply , trying to catch up. Thanks for your help I might get it .


----------



## dutchassasin

VWatchie said:


> Comrades! What would be a reasonable price for this Raketa ($20 shipping fee)? I have no idea whether it is legit or not, but it sure looks genuine to me? According to the seller, case and crown show no visible wear but the watch doesn't tick unless subjected to some mild violence.


Hello, thats my advert  . The watch now starts running from stop when you start winding the crown. The oil was a bit sticky from staying in the glass cabinet for a long period. I can give you a better price outside ebay due to ebay and paypal taking a cut of the cake.


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> Hello, thats my advert  . The watch now starts running from stop when you start winding the crown. The oil was a bit sticky from staying in the glass cabinet for a long period. I can give you a better price outside ebay due to ebay and paypal taking a cut of the cake.


From that one picture I would be suspicious. I believe most Raketas that came out of the Petrodvorets factory had a place of manufacture on the dial. A movement picture would also be helpful; should show 2623.H movement instead of 2609, etc.


----------



## dutchassasin

schnurrp said:


> From that one picture I would be suspicious. I believe most Raketas that came out of the Petrodvorets factory had a place of manufacture on the dial. A movement picture would also be helpful; should show 2623.H movement instead of 2609, etc.


its not uncommon to leave out the manufacter logo or country for special run.

movement shot. now trying to get the bloody back on


----------



## VWatchie

dutchassasin said:


> its not uncommon to leave out the manufacter logo for special run.
> 
> movement shot. *now trying to get the bloody back on*
> 
> View attachment 13257463


OK, just be careful there, I just might want to get it off you, but I'd like to see what schnurrp (and others) has to say about the movement first!  (Sure, let's avoid eBay!)


----------



## schnurrp

VWatchie said:


> OK, just be careful there, I just might want to get it off you, but I'd like to see what schnurrp (and others) has to say about the movement first!  (Sure, let's avoid eBay!)


Not much to say, really. No markings on it, just like the dial, to identify it as a Raketa. Unlikely Raketa would have created it, at least not in its heyday. Wouldn't make commercial sense.

My personal feeling about watches like that is first is it cheap? Then, are there some good parts there I might need or is the subject matter interesting to me? If the answer to both is "no" then I move on to something more easily authenticated in the usual manner using catalogs, online collections, etc. Occasionally you find a really unique one that turns out to be authentic based on some personal provenance of the owner but it's very rare. There are a lot of "Raketas" out there with questionable, unknowable beginnings.


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> Hello, thats my advert  . The watch now starts running from stop when you start winding the crown. The oil was a bit sticky from staying in the glass cabinet for a long period. I can give you a better price outside ebay due to ebay and paypal taking a cut of the cake.


Just realized you are the seller, comrade. Please pardon my somewhat negative remarks and good luck with your sale. It does appear to be in mint condition.


----------



## kev80e

VWatchie said:


> View attachment 13257291
> 
> Comrades! What would be a reasonable price for this Raketa ($20 shipping fee)? I have no idea whether it is legit or not, but it sure looks genuine to me? According to the seller, case and crown show no visible wear but the watch doesn't tick unless subjected to some mild violence.


I think it's genuine. These may help.
https://newauction.com.ua/offer/cha...mf_sssr_redkie_korobka-i90246399772231.html#2

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/rare-raketa-radio-service-anyone-have-one-268837.html


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> I think it's genuine. These may help.
> https://newauction.com.ua/offer/cha...mf_sssr_redkie_korobka-i90246399772231.html#2
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/rare-raketa-radio-service-anyone-have-one-268837.html


Can't help it, kev, that one you reference has an ugly replacement-looking crystal on it. Most un-Raketa for that design.

However '93 was a tumultuous time for Petrodvorets so who knows?

At least they don't have a converted 2609 for a movement.


----------



## dutchassasin

schnurp i respect your opinion but this time i disagree. I bought it from a German seller who inherited a massive raketa collection. The watch came with a plastic box just like any other raketa's. Sadly no papers.


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> schnurp i respect your opinion but this time i disagree. I bought it from a German seller who inherited a massive raketa collection. The watch came with a plastic box just like any other raketa's. Sadly no papers.


Doesn't hurt my feelings at all, dutch. You may be right and I hope you are but (and this is why I don't collect these) we will never really know. Enjoy!


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Can't help it, kev, that one you reference has an ugly replacement-looking crystal on it. Most un-Raketa for that design.
> 
> However '93 was a tumultuous time for Petrodvorets so who knows?
> 
> At least they don't have a converted 2609 for a movement.


Another here in Alexander collection. The crystal is wrong on the other . But for some reason Russians seem to replace crystals with the tallest they can find. 
https://yadi.sk/a/FLlei0fA3W6Rnu/5afe02916509365034240d22


----------



## momosalah

Long time not buying any Ruskie watch and I got that itch now. Can someone tell me if this one is legit? Looks quite nice


----------



## schnurrp

momosalah said:


> Long time not buying any Ruskie watch and I got that itch now. Can someone tell me if this one is legit? Looks quite nice
> 
> View attachment 13259677
> View attachment 13259683
> 
> View attachment 13259679
> View attachment 13259681


Only have one post-USSR catalog to search and I don't see it in there but I don't see any red flags, for what it's worth. I might like to see a movement shot. Not an authenticated collectible from my standpoint but if it works well would be a nice wearing watch worth buying at the right (moderate) price. Bezel is probably non-movable.

You may get some other owners to chime in and give it a little more authenticity.


----------



## Sansoni7

Any information about this watch and its history, will be appreciated.
Tks


----------



## miquel99

Nice komandirskie "second generation" from 70s with 2234 Movement. Dont you have any picture of caseback?


----------



## Sansoni7

miquel99 said:


> Nice komandirskie "second generation" from 70s with 2234 Movement. Dont you have any picture of caseback?


Thanks
When i have it on my hands, i will take it.


----------



## schnurrp

Sansoni7 said:


> Any information about this watch and its history, will be appreciated.
> Tks


What appears to be the dial is pictured in this '76 catalog with a different case.









There is a good chance, in my opinion, that this dial was also found in the older case like yours and my faded one with a slightly older second hand with no "feathers" pictured below, which also has the 2234 movement, despite 2214 on the back.









I don't know if there's much "history" associated with these watches other than the "Заказ мо СССР" versions which were evidently available only through special military stores.


----------



## Sansoni7

Thank you *schnurrp*.
Much appreciated.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Kamburov said:


> Saw this in the 1972 catalog. Looks blackish here, though
> View attachment 13232415
> 
> 
> also here
> View attachment 13232429





schnurrp said:


> There's this one, upper right, from a 1972 combined catalog. I would not doubt the authenticity of that dial regardless as it seems to have all the correct elements. I haven't seen a reproduction "slash" dial yet that gets it right like that one.
> 
> View attachment 13232771





mroatman said:


> Agreed. All original except the crown.
> 
> It's an unusual dial color, but I don't think it's faded. Our buddy Yavor recently sold this one (w/ correct crown, in my opinion). It wasn't cheap.
> 
> View attachment 13245745


Thanks Kamburov , Schnurrp and mroatman for your help. It's much appreciated . I couldn't resist it. On the way.


----------



## 11:11

Hello 

Hoping this is the right thread to post in. 

Started hunting for an anniversary present for my SO ( was orginally looking for a wallet) and four hours later here I am... total watch novice in general but have fallen in love with some of old soviet watch designs.
I think the kopernic is something he would like (and appears to fit with my limited budget) but have found myself down a rabbit hole of frakenwatches.
I can't seem to post a link but it's from ebay seller zeikaua2014 and is listed as men's soviet russiam watch USSR raketa.

Any help or pointers in the right direction would be very much appreciated.
Thank you


----------



## CrusadesOClock

I will just link this here so other people can help you out better than I can;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Men-s-So...972759?hash=item25f815de97:g:ODIAAOSwfHJbER3m

I did look at his other listings though and a lot of them are re-dials. In my opinion, which is not expertise at all this watch looks okay, there are a few replacement parts inside I think? But idk if that is the correct movement/case etc. Seeing how many blatant frankens they are selling I would probably just avoid tbh.


----------



## 11:11

Thanks for your help! Now obsessing over Slava medical... I can see this becoming quite addictive


----------



## CrusadesOClock

I know that bug, Vostok's have kept me busy all day long, everyday since I found out about them. Good luck with your purchases.


----------



## 11:11

https://m.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RAKETA-C...680537?hash=item285e69bfd9:g:S0YAAOSwjk9ZTDJh

Any thoughts on this? Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

Authentic but overpriced, in my opinion, even with a reasonable offer. With a little patience I think you could do better.


----------



## 11:11

Thank you Schnurrrp. Never been my strong point but I will persevere...


----------



## schnurrp

11:11 said:


> Thank you Schnurrrp. Never been my strong point but I will persevere...


Of course price is a subjective thing. If you think you will keep it forever and can afford it then go ahead. Just think it would be hard to get your money back if you decided to sell it.


----------



## Timepiece Tenderfoot

11:11 said:


> Hello
> 
> Hoping this is the right thread to post in.
> 
> Started hunting for an anniversary present for my SO ( was orginally looking for a wallet) and four hours later here I am... total watch novice in general but have fallen in love with some of old soviet watch designs.
> I think the kopernic is something he would like (and appears to fit with my limited budget) but have found myself down a rabbit hole of frakenwatches.
> I can't seem to post a link but it's from ebay seller zeikaua2014 and is listed as men's soviet russiam watch USSR raketa.
> 
> Any help or pointers in the right direction would be very much appreciated.
> Thank you


I would suggest taking a look at this seller. 
https://www.ebay.com/str/samun-povt

All Raketa and former forum member


----------



## 11:11

Thanks everyone for your help. I ended up ruining the suprise but thankfully he loves the watch and in exchange have bought myself some more time to find the right one to buy.


----------



## audiomagnate

11:11 said:


> Thanks everyone for your help. I ended up ruining the suprise but thankfully he loves the watch and in exchange have bought myself some more time to find the right one to buy.


Is he a member here?


----------



## 24h

Thoughts on this Poljot alarm watch?
Really want to add a 2612 and 3133 to my collection, but not ready to spend a lot on the 3133 yet.
Hopefully it's all original - would you say that a little over $100 is a decent price?


----------



## Shiga1

Has anyone ever seen a Pobeda written in a latin alphabet transliteration and with Made In USSR in English? I've never seen it but it's the only difference I can discern between this and all the other Pobeda's on Ebay. Also I'm mad new and have never looked at Soviet Watches before today.


----------



## schnurrp

24h said:


> Thoughts on this Poljot alarm watch?
> Really want to add a 2612 and 3133 to my collection, but not ready to spend a lot on the 3133 yet.
> Hopefully it's all original - would you say that a little over $100 is a decent price?
> 
> View attachment 13272631
> 
> View attachment 13272633


Found this one in a 1992 catalog pictured below with a different set of hands and a differently numbered minute trace. I would be a little suspicious of yours, comrade.









Hands look more like these:









I could be mistaken, though. Hopefully someone has one identical that they will share with us.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Hands look more like these:
> 
> View attachment 13272839


And minute track looks like this one:


----------



## 24h

I wonder if instead of getting an older watch, it might be a fun project to get a movement and a newer production case to make my own "franken".


----------



## miquel99

Hi comrades, I have a dude about the hands of this watch. Seem have the hands of the golden case...


----------



## usikker

Hi. 
Just bougth my first Vostok.
Can anybody give some information about this? Only thing I know is that it's from 1993.


----------



## usikker

Hi. 
Just bougth my first Vostok.
Can anybody give some information about this? Only thing I know is that it's from 1993.
View attachment 13275395


----------



## Avidfan

usikker said:


> Hi.
> Just bougth my first Vostok.
> Can anybody give some information about this? Only thing I know is that it's from 1993.
> View attachment 13275395


It's not a Vostok, it's a Ostwok, these were assembled in Switzerland using Russian made parts for about 5 years from the mid-1990's onwards.

It has a type 34 komandirskie case that should have a Vostok 2414A movement inside.

Hope this helps


----------



## usikker

Avidfan said:


> usikker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi.
> Just bougth my first Vostok.
> Can anybody give some information about this? Only thing I know is that it's from 1993.
> View attachment 13275395
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a Vostok, it's a Ostwok, these were assembled in Switzerland using Russian made parts for about 5 years from the mid-1990's onwards.
> 
> It has a type 34 komandirskie case that should have a Vostok 2414A movement inside.
> 
> Hope this helps
Click to expand...

So I can brag about my Ostwok then? 
Or is it something we brag about?

I still like it but it lost some of the buzz


----------



## Avidfan

usikker said:


> So I can brag about my Ostwok then?
> Or is it something we brag about?
> 
> I still like it but it lost some of the buzz


You can brag about if you want to 

It's still 100% made by Vostok, just assembled by Ostwok in Switzerland to get around the Swiss ban on foreign watch imports, the only difference is the Ostwok logo on the dial.


----------



## usikker

Thanks a lot for your help.


----------



## Chascomm

miquel99 said:


> Hi comrades, I have a dude about the hands of this watch. Seem have the hands of the golden case...


I think the hands/dial/movement have been transplanted from a gold case to a chrome case, but I'm no expert.

It is still a very attractive combination.


----------



## AGAPITO

miquel99 said:


> Hi comrades, I have a dude about the hands of this watch. Seem have the hands of the golden case...
> 
> View attachment 13274471


Miquel, I think you have good reason to doubt this watch.

I think it's the 473124 model that appears in the 1975-1980 catalog. The case seems in good condition, but the hands do not seem original. I would not buy it. You deserve a better watch.









I have the model 461117, which in principle matches the catalog.


----------



## schnurrp

usikker said:


> Thanks a lot for your help.


I wonder if that old bezel is appropriate for a post-soviet "Vostok"; I would have expected a "dot-dash" version.


----------



## miquel99

Thank you Comrades it was I suspected!!!


----------



## schnurrp

Oops.


----------



## Avidfan

schnurrp said:


> I wonder if that old bezel is appropriate for a post-soviet "Vostok"; I would have expected a "dot-dash" version.


You could be right about the bezel schnurrp, that bezel is fitted on lots of type 34 cases in the 1990 Vostok Tento catalogue but they are all of the "dot-dash" or the scarce type with lots of small dots by the 1993 Vostok catalogue.

In the only Ostwok catalogue that I know of the type 34 cases all have the "dot-dash" bezel, but as these watches date from the post-Soviet 1990's almost any bezel could have been used.


----------



## Wu Yifan

Hello all! I'm a complete tyro in Soviet watches (and just joined the forum last month) but I fall in love with this Raketa on first sight 
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com.hk/ulk/itm/113074470573
Actually I've already made the purchase and I do know that that seller has a good reputation. But for peace of mind can anyone here offer some opinions on the authenticity of this piece? I have some doubts over the bezel because I saw somewhere else (probably a catalogue posted by a fellow member of the forum) that the model has a textured bezel. Any comments on that? 
Many thanks!


----------



## Wu Yifan

Wu Yifan said:


> Hello all! I'm a complete tyro in Soviet watches (and just joined the forum last month) but I fall in love with this Raketa on first sight
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com.hk/ulk/itm/113074470573
> Actually I've already made the purchase and I do know that that seller has a good reputation. But for peace of mind can anyone here offer some opinions on the authenticity of this piece? I have some doubts over the bezel because I saw somewhere else (probably a catalogue posted by Kanelbulle, a fellow member of the forum) that the model has a textured bezel. Any comments on that?
> Many thanks!


----------



## 24h

Nevermind :-x


----------



## Tjmillwright

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi all I was wondering if I could get your feedback on the originality of these Vostoks, i know they are rough but i dont mind a few dings and scratches, thanks for your opinion in advance.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/100-origina...881368?hash=item1ed96df6d8:g:vpkAAOSwqfZaerlN 
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Original-vi...716660?hash=item1ee4dd2374:g:EOoAAOSwFZtbO-cF


----------



## Neruda

The first Amphibian looks good to me.

The second Komandirskie looks to have a post-Soviet movement which may be a replacement. I'm not completely certain, but it is my suspicion! Note the small dimple on the ratchet wheel which I don't believe I've seen earlier than about 1995.


----------



## Tjmillwright

Neruda said:


> The first Amphibian looks good to me.
> 
> The second Komandirskie looks to have a post-Soviet movement which may be a replacement. I'm not completely certain, but it is my suspicion! Note the small dimple on the ratchet wheel which I don't believe I've seen earlier than about 1995.


Thanks Neruda, I will call on this thread from time to time to help with potential purchases, nice to see there are members with eagle eyes for those little details.


----------



## Tjmillwright

Hello all, thanks for the advice on my previous request, could I bother you for an opinion on this Amphibian, I'm wanting to pull the trigger on my first one but I would like some more advice.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-sov...682861?hash=item1ee340a2ad:g:lvMAAOSwDktbIQ6~

thanking you in advance


----------



## schnurrp

Based on this example from a 1993 Vostok catalog, I think yours looks fine going by what you're showing.















That photo is a bit in a shadow so the chrome-plated bezel looks much darker than it is, I believe.


----------



## Tjmillwright

Excellent, thanks very much schnurrp.


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi all, can anyone help me identify/validate this watch?


----------



## Kamburov

That's from the 1983 catalog. Looks like it's been transferred from a gold-plated to chromed case. Also missing the original bracelet or the end links. I don't think this is it's original state. Sadly, it looks like another gold-plated case dissapeared from this world.
Ivan


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks. I liked the case so bought it just for this. Unfortunate it's not fully genuine, but I'm happy that the second hand looks right--this black hand looks a bit odd in real situation so I was suspicious.
I'll keep the watch anyway as the dial is nicely textured (looks like a textile dial). Only thing is that in the absence of the end-link I'll have to work out a strap. Probably brown leather.


----------



## schnurrp

I believe you have it right, comrade kamburov.

For some reason the chrome ones even with the original bracelet are quite cheap so maybe you can pick one up for parts.

Mine:


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks for the advice. The donor may be more expensive than the recipient as I bought the latter for USD1.


----------



## Kamburov

Guess cutting a leather band will work out fine. This, for me, is the best looking model from the 4 on that page. I find the original band end links very cool, especially the gold plated (as on schnurrp's example), and if I find a good condition ones I may try getting it. They seem to be unique for these three models. Not the most rare or expensive, so you may get lucky one day. 
Hard to beat a dollar, though 
Ivan


----------



## 011235

Hey all, I searched through this thread to see if I can save us all the trouble, but no luck.

I've got a couple amphibians, and a rare-looking Raketa I'm wondering about. Now - I do not own any Russian watches, but I've been considering buying one for quite a few years. That means I think I know things, but that my knowledge is actually worthless.

I recognize the faces and bezels of the Vostoks, and a little research tells me the movement is maybe ok, but as you'll probably notice, the person who put these up for sale used the same picture of the crown for both watches. I appreciate that they appreciate that the crown on this watch is important, on the other hand. If they're legit, my understanding is that they would be very nice examples of early pieces...

The Raketa - I haven't seen a face like this. The 12 on top is unusual, and then the whole look is just different. So, I'm curious about what's going on with that one...


----------



## schnurrp

'77 catalog:


----------



## mariomart

011235 said:


> Hey all, I searched through this thread to see if I can save us all the trouble, but no luck.
> 
> I've got a couple amphibians, and a rare-looking Raketa I'm wondering about. Now - I do not own any Russian watches, but I've been considering buying one for quite a few years. That means I think I know things, but that my knowledge is actually worthless.
> 
> I recognize the faces and bezels of the Vostoks, and a little research tells me the movement is maybe ok, but as you'll probably notice, the person who put these up for sale used the same picture of the crown for both watches. I appreciate that they appreciate that the crown on this watch is important, on the other hand. If they're legit, my understanding is that they would be very nice examples of early pieces...
> 
> The Raketa - I haven't seen a face like this. The 12 on top is unusual, and then the whole look is just different. So, I'm curious about what's going on with that one...


Here's my Vostok 24 Hour Type 89 case for comparison


----------



## kev80e

I have this Slava monster on the way and thought it was just the wrong seconds hand , not the usual one with a rectangular lume. However looking I can't find another with the seconds marked inside the dial , always around the edge . I'm confused now. 








And then i find one . With the seconds hand but different minute and hour ones .
http://www.ussrtime.com/cgi-bin/details.pl?id=0435


----------



## mariomart

This listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/263850487485

Haha, haha, hahahahahahahaha, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ..................

Oh dear .....


----------



## VWatchie

Warning, slightly OT, I guess&#8230;








I can't help it. When I hold this, one of my favourite Komandirskies, in my hand, it feels like the case is made of stainless steel. It feels sort of heavy, the dents are few and small and look like stainless steel, the shine is that of stainless steel, unlike the mirror-like chrome shine of the modern day Komandirskies. I was told all Komandirskie cases, new and vintage, are made of chromed brass. _Is that true, or is this Russian piece of timekeeping poetry actually stainless steel?_

EDIT: Found an excellent reply by schnurrp here. It pays to Google before you write. Anyway, I won't remove this post as someone might be interested.


----------



## schnurrp

VWatchie said:


> Warning, slightly OT, I guess&#8230;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't help it. When I hold this, one of my favourite Komandirskies, in my hand, it feels like the case is made of stainless steel. It feels sort of heavy, the dents are few and small and look like stainless steel, the shine is that of stainless steel, unlike the mirror-like chrome shine of the modern day Komandirskies. I was told all Komandirskie cases, new and vintage, are made of chromed brass. _Is that true, or is this Russian piece of timekeeping poetry actually stainless steel?_
> 
> EDIT: Found an excellent reply by schnurrp here. It pays to Google before you write. Anyway, I won't remove this post as someone might be interested.


Yes, schnurrp knows his stuff!

Here's michele's example, back view. Notice the difference in color between the "warm" stainless steel two-part back and the "cold" chrome of the case. Yours is in wonderful condition, comrade, thanks for sharing.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Yes, schnurrp knows his stuff!
> 
> (- - -) Yours is in wonderful condition, comrade, thanks for sharing.
> 
> View attachment 13354499


Indeed, comrade schnurrp never fails! Thanks!

You're welcome, and yes it's near perfect, and I'm one very happy owner. Wrote a bit about it here.


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Yes, schnurrp knows his stuff!
> 
> (- - -) Yours is in wonderful condition, comrade, thanks for sharing.
> 
> View attachment 13354499


Indeed, comrade schnurrp never fails! Thanks!

You're welcome, and yes it's near perfect, and I'm one very happy owner. Wrote a bit about it here.


----------



## pjd

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*








Does it look legit?

- - - Updated - - -








Does it look legit?


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



pjd said:


> View attachment 13361781
> 
> Does it look legit?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> View attachment 13361781
> 
> Does it look legit?


No. At least three different watches parted to make that, in my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -


----------



## pjd

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> No. At least three different watches parted to make that, in my opinion.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


OK. Thank you. 
It's a shame as I love the dial.

- - - Updated - - -



schnurrp said:


> No. At least three different watches parted to make that, in my opinion.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


OK. Thank you. 
It's a shame as I love the dial.


----------



## schnurrp




----------



## XsiOn

One question regarding Poljot Amphibia.... Is the only eligible second hand the one with loomed circle on it. What do you think about this one?


----------



## schnurrp

XsiOn said:


> One question regarding Poljot Amphibia.... Is the only eligible second hand the one with loomed circle on it. What do you think about this one?
> View attachment 13365623


It's authentic, in my opinion.


----------



## 011235

mariomart said:


> This listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/263850487485
> 
> Haha, haha, hahahahahahahaha, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ..................
> 
> Oh dear .....


My favorite part of looking at watches on eBay is that it's such a treat to see all these beautiful pieces that are "rare," "very rare," or, my favorite - "genuine," and the ultimate "genuine, rare."


----------



## FTE

Hi, I am fairly new to the world of Wostok/Vostok/Bostok. I would like to ask the help of the experts here to determine whether these two watches are legit / original, or franken-crap?

Watch #1:














Watch #2:


----------



## schnurrp

FTE said:


> Hi, I am fairly new to the world of Wostok/Vostok/Bostok. I would like to ask the help of the experts here to determine whether these two watches are legit / original, or franken-crap?
> 
> Watch #1:
> View attachment 13368799
> View attachment 13368801
> 
> 
> Watch #2:
> 
> View attachment 13368803
> View attachment 13368805
> View attachment 13368807


First one authentic from 1990 Vostok catalog

View attachment 13369041


Second one probably authentic just a different color scheme from this example in an '83 catalog or original green has faded.

View attachment 13369053


----------



## FTE

Thank you for the quick response....wow, you guys really know your stuff.


----------



## audiomagnate

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Second one probably authentic just a different color scheme from this example in an '83 catalog or original green has faded.


That dial looks like beautiful old horse hide. Nice!


----------



## Kamburov

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Agree with comrade schnurrp, will just add something about that Vostok dial. It does appear in catalogs 1983-1985 in green colour only, but also I spotted something in a 1979 catalog. It is black&white, sadly, but there are two models like this one, so they can't be the same colour. Maybe it's the case/hands colour? I don't know.















The mysteries of soviet watchmaking again 
Still, UV burned green dial is very possible. It seems to happen with blues and greens quite a lot.
Ivan

- - - Updated - - -

Agree with comrade schnurrp, will just add something about that Vostok dial. It does appear in catalogs 1983-1985 in green colour only, but also I spotted something in a 1979 catalog. It is black&white, sadly, but there are two models like this one, so they can't be the same colour. Maybe it's the case/hands colour? I don't know.















The mysteries of soviet watchmaking again 
Still, UV burned green dial is very possible. It seems to happen with blues and greens quite a lot.
Ivan


----------



## FTE

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Any opinions on these two "Amphibias"?

Blue Dial:














Black Dial:


----------



## thewatchadude

I would say these are not Amphibias but Komandirskie, so not 200m water resistant. _Same movement nonetheless. [my bad, not the same movement, forgot about the date complication--Avidfan below has it right]_


----------



## thewatchadude

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

My own request please guys: does anyone know anything about this Raketa? I don't even know the size...


----------



## Avidfan

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



FTE said:


> Any opinions on these two "Amphibias"?
> 
> Blue Dial:
> View attachment 13373611
> View attachment 13373613
> 
> 
> Black Dial:
> View attachment 13373615
> View attachment 13373617
> View attachment 13373619


FTE,

Blue dial is a komandirskie, 2414A movement in an unusual 'fat' case that looks a bit like a type 34, 289 submarine dial, bezel has been repainted, probably from the late 90's

Black dial is also a komandirskie, 2414A movement in a standard 34 case, 306 tank dial, post-Soviet from the first half of the 90's.

Hope this helps


----------



## FTE

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Avidfan said:


> FTE,
> 
> Blue dial is a komandirskie, 2414A movement in an unusual 'fat' case that looks a bit like a type 34, 289 submarine dial, bezel has been repainted, probably from the late 90's
> 
> Black dial is also a komandirskie, 2414A movement in a standard 34 case, 306 tank dial, post-Soviet from the first half of the 90's.
> 
> Hope this helps


Thank you...yes, that is most helpful. Do you see anything that may indicate a frankenwatch?


----------



## Avidfan

FTE said:


> Thank you...yes, that is most helpful. Do you see anything that may indicate a frankenwatch?


Black tank watch is fine for a 1990's 341306, some of the bezel dots and dashes might have been painted black, but I'm sure I can see a little red in the large dot so it might only be dirt.

I'm not 100% sure on the blue submarine watch, like I said it has a strange 'fat' case that looks like a type 34 but isn't, and I'm not sure if that case would ever have been fitted with a 'Made in Russia' dial.

Here's a thread on these strange cases:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/weird-case-komandirskie-zakaz-4742279.html


----------



## thewatchadude

Could this be a Generalskie case ? I mean the automatic model, not the one with star shapd case obviously.


----------



## FTE

thewatchadude said:


> Could this be a Generalskie case ? I mean the automatic model, not the one with star shapd case obviously.


This was going to be my question as well...like a "bubbleback" for an automatic that was used as a replacement?


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> Could this be a Generalskie case ? I mean the automatic model, not the one with star shapd case obviously.


Don't think so, here's the back of a late 1990's 091 Generalskie case:


----------



## Kamburov

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Some closure on the Vostok dial subject. While I was browsing for spares in a local site... the green dial








and next to it, in the row under... the brown(ish?) dial








so there we go 
Ivan


----------



## FTE

Thank you - that settles it!


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



FTE said:


> Any opinions on these two "Amphibias"?
> 
> Blue Dial:
> View attachment 13373611
> View attachment 13373613
> 
> 
> Black Dial:
> View attachment 13373615
> View attachment 13373617
> View attachment 13373619


Perhaps this can be of some help!?


----------



## thewatchadude

Gents, I bought this some time ago as a basics for my summer modded watch. I bought it as an Amphibia--obviously already modded--with appropriate tension ring, case, caseback and crown.



It just recently appeared to me that the case might be chrome-plated brass rather than stainless steel.



However the case has the two notches typical of Amphibias, rather than the single notch of Komandirskies.



Any views on this ?


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> Gents, I bought this some time ago as a basics for my summer modded watch. I bought it as an Amphibia--obviously already modded--with appropriate tension ring, case, caseback and crown.
> 
> 
> 
> It just recently appeared to me that the case might be chrome-plated brass rather than stainless steel.
> 
> 
> 
> However the case has the two notches typical of Amphibias, rather than the single notch of Komandirskies.
> 
> 
> 
> Any views on this ?


It's a type 92 komandirskie case, the only komandirskie case that I know of that has 2 case back notches, here's another:


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks. Good to know--I'm an Amphibia addict so don't know much about Km.


----------



## armanh

What is this? Found here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OLD-ST...ndition=1500&_from=R40&rt=nc&autorefresh=true


----------



## schnurrp

Double minute track, one on dial and one on inner bezel, and no "12" would make me doubt authenticity.

These two from michel:


----------



## Straight_time

It might be the exception to the "No double minute track" rule, but I believe that this dial/bezel/case combo could be legit.

No catalog evidences AFAIK, but this isn't the first time that I have seen it around, always in that same configuration; and, in addition to the 3 examples in possession of this seller, a very quick ebay search returned 2 more results from 2 sellers located in 2 different Countries. Not a definitive proof of authenticity, but nevertheless a good clue.


----------



## lasspoiss

Would appreciate an opinion on this one which is for sale


----------



## schnurrp

lasspoiss said:


> Would appreciate an opinion on this one which is for sale


That dial with the large gold hour bars should be paired with an interior bezel and the larger case like these from '80 catalog:









Hands should be lumed and second hand should be arrow type with finish matching other hands.


----------



## lasspoiss

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Thank you! Great response.

I'll steer clear of this one

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you! Great response.

I'll steer clear of this one


----------



## XsiOn

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Hi,

This watch just arrived. When buying i was sure it is original.... but I am not so sure for dial any more. Watch was just to cheap.... hmmm

What do you think?


----------



## Kamburov

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



XsiOn said:


> Hi,
> 
> This watch just arrived. When buying i was sure it is original.... but I am not so sure for dial any more. Watch was just to cheap.... hmmm
> 
> What do you think?


Congrats, comrade! I don't see a problem with the dial, or the hands, for that matter. The crown is obviously replaced (original has to be domed, I think), but otherwise looks good to me. Maybe if you post a movement shot our friends here would be able to say if it matches the dial. This model looks like the beginning of the 70s. I have exactly the same model, and don't remember it being expensive.
Catalogue pics are not very good, but there's one from the 1972


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



XsiOn said:


> Hi,
> 
> This watch just arrived. When buying i was sure it is original.... but I am not so sure for dial any more. Watch was just to cheap.... hmmm
> 
> What do you think?


Looks good to me, too. I guess it depends on what you think is cheap. What did you pay?


----------



## audiomagnate

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Except for the crown it looks great.


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

I'm a bit puzzled about this conversation with eBay seller banqq2 (know as a reliable seller of Russian watches, right?) about this watch.

My question:
_"Is this an original watch or a Franken watch? I don't think it is clear from the listing. Thanks!"_

banqq2's reply:
_"Original.
Only mechanism Rus - but need SU.
But mechanism same 2416B.
Thanks"_

My main concern is a 31 jewel movement in a watch having a dial stating 21 jewels. Perhaps that was before the reversing wheels of the cal. 2431B had any jewels? What do you think? Should it be considered legit or Franken?


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



VWatchie said:


> I'm a bit puzzled about this conversation with eBay seller banqq2 (know as a reliable seller of Russian watches, right?) about this watch.
> 
> My question:
> _"Is this an original watch or a Franken watch? I don't think it is clear from the listing. Thanks!"_
> 
> banqq2's reply:
> _"Original.
> Only mechanism Rus - but need SU.
> But mechanism same 2416B.
> Thanks"_
> 
> My main concern is a 31 jewel movement in a watch having a dial stating 21 jewels. Perhaps that was before the reversing wheels of the cal. 2431B had any jewels? What do you think? Should it be considered legit or Franken?


Strictly speaking, if a vintage watch is not the same as it was when it left the factory it should be considered a "Franken". This designation is usually waived when easily worn-out items such as crowns, crystals, and even balance assemblies have been replaced. In the case where a whole movement or dial has been replaced this is more likely to be dubbed a "Franken". As I understand it, the ten steel ball bearings in the rotor were replaced with ten synthetic ruby ones in the 31 jewel 2416. It shouldn't be too hard to find an "SU" 2416.B movement to "de-franken" with but it will most likely result in some added expense unless you can sell or use the newer 31 jewel 2416 in another watch.


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> *Strictly speaking, if a vintage watch is not the same as it was when it left the factory it should be considered a "Franken".* This designation is usually waived when easily worn-out items such as crowns, crystals, and even balance assemblies have been replaced. In the case where a whole movement or dial has been replaced this is more likely to be dubbed a "Franken". As I understand it, the ten steel ball bearings in the rotor were replaced with ten synthetic ruby ones in the 31 jewel 2416. It shouldn't be too hard to find an "SU" 2416.B movement to "de-franken" with but it will most likely result in some added expense unless you can sell or use the newer 31 jewel 2416 in another watch.


Thanks comrade schnurrp! As always, very useful and important info! I will pass on this one.


----------



## XsiOn

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me, too. I guess it depends on what you think is cheap. What did you pay?


I paid 25€ for this one delivered. I consider this quite cheap?


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



XsiOn said:


> I paid 25€ for this one delivered. I consider this quite cheap?


Well that certainly seems like a good deal if everything other than the crown is authentic. The movement looks like the right one, the back should have a circular polishing pattern (straight pattern was used by Minsk), and if you're lucky the original low-profile crystal is present. Seller's pictures have disappeared.

With its authentic movement, particularly if it's working properly, and an authentic dial/hands/case assembly in nice condition, it might be worth replacing any or all non-authentic parts as they become available at the right price.


----------



## XsiOn

*Re: Q&amp;amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Well that certainly seems like a good deal if everything other than the crown is authentic. The movement looks like the right one, the back should have a circular polishing pattern (straight pattern was used by Minsk), and if you're lucky the original low-profile crystal is present. Seller's pictures have disappeared.
> 
> With its authentic movement, particularly if it's working properly, and an authentic dial/hands/case assembly in nice condition, it might be worth replacing any or all non-authentic parts as they become available at the right price.


Thanks for info and help. I will try to find original crown. I believe the easiest and most doable would be to find donator watch?

- - - Updated - - -



schnurrp said:


> Well that certainly seems like a good deal if everything other than the crown is authentic. The movement looks like the right one, the back should have a circular polishing pattern (straight pattern was used by Minsk), and if you're lucky the original low-profile crystal is present. Seller's pictures have disappeared.
> 
> With its authentic movement, particularly if it's working properly, and an authentic dial/hands/case assembly in nice condition, it might be worth replacing any or all non-authentic parts as they become available at the right price.


Thanks for info and help. I will try to find original crown. I believe the easiest and most doable would be to find donator watch?


----------



## philippeF

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Hello guys
Pretty sure it is not legit, but asking anyway ...
thanks 
Philippe


----------



## Stuey63

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



XsiOn said:


> Hi,
> 
> This watch just arrived. When buying i was sure it is original.... but I am not so sure for dial any more. Watch was just to cheap.... hmmm
> 
> What do you think?


I really like that dial!


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&amp;amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



philippeF said:


> Hello guys
> Pretty sure it is not legit, but asking anyway ...
> thanks
> Philippe


Authentic.


----------



## buddhawake

Can anyone tell me anything about the dial on this watch? Is in the bay. 








*btw. anyway I can resize images? they show up huge to me.


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



XsiOn said:


> I paid 25€ for this one delivered. I consider this quite cheap?


If it's ticking and in overall decent condition, I think it's a fair price.


----------



## VWatchie

buddhawake said:


> Can anyone tell me anything about the dial on this watch? Is in the bay.
> View attachment 13402961


Nerver saw that dial before (very nice!) The dial itself sure looks very Vostok and authentic to me. Can you provide a link to the listning? I've been searching using words such as vostok, cosmonaut, Valentina Tereshkova, comemorative, 1963, 2013 and so on but can't find it.


----------



## buddhawake

Sure thing:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOSTOK-Amphiba-Russian-Automatic-Watch-1st-Woman-in-Space-50th-Annv-US-Seller/192628914255?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150520070957%26meid%3D1fe757bab81d414381ec9e8358c2b4ad%26pid%3D100277%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D113208693505%26itm%3D192628914255&_trksid=p2060778.c100277.m3477
I've been looking for dials the past 3 days to see if it there was something similar out there. I feel like I may have seen it somewhere but I looked in books and a few sites and have not and because I'm new to all this... well, here I am.


----------



## XsiOn

I can remember Marina was selling this watches...


----------



## VWatchie

buddhawake said:


> Sure thing:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOSTOK-Amphiba-Russian-Automatic-Watch-1st-Woman-in-Space-50th-Annv-US-Seller/192628914255?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150520070957%26meid%3D1fe757bab81d414381ec9e8358c2b4ad%26pid%3D100277%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D113208693505%26itm%3D192628914255&_trksid=p2060778.c100277.m3477
> I've been looking for dials the past 3 days to see if it there was something similar out there. I feel like I may have seen it somewhere but I looked in books and a few sites and have not and because I'm new to all this... well, here I am.


As I said, I never saw this, in my eyes, gorgeous dial before. I'm certainly not the man to verify if it's legit or not but it sure looks and feels like a genuine Vostok Amphibian. I think the listing pretty much says what there is to say about the dial, no?

_"Vostok Boctok Amphibian Amphibia automatic/mechaical dive watch produced for the 50th anniversary (1963-2013) of the first women in space.

Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova, a Russian cosmonaut, engineer, and politician. She was the first woman to fly in space aboard Vostok 6 on 16 June 1963 and still remains the only woman ever to have been on a solo space mission."
_
Besides that, is there something, in particular, you want to know about the dial? Legit or not, it would be nice to own that dial. As far as I know, Vostok hasn't produced that many dials having a space theme.


----------



## Patski

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

This one bothers me... Seems like a Kirovskie in good shape but....


----------



## mariomart

buddhawake said:


> Can anyone tell me anything about the dial on this watch? Is in the bay.
> View attachment 13402961
> 
> 
> *btw. anyway I can resize images? they show up huge to me.


I sort of remember coming across a post on another watch forum (Spanish?) that had this dial as a project. From memory it was a project that did NOT have the authority of Valentina Tereshkova and infringed on her trademark, her own name. I hope I'm getting the story right and I can't seem to find the post, but it was quite a while ago.

By the way, the mention of "Seagull" down the bottom of the dial is a reference to her mission call sign, which was Seagull


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Patski said:


> This one bothers me... Seems like a Kirovskie in good shape but....


Missing "First Moscow Watch Factory Made in" on inner bezel, tail of second hand is missing?, crown is flat instead of conical, and movement should be 16 jewel non-shockproof.


----------



## Patski

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Missing "First Moscow Watch Factory Made in" on inner bezel, tail of second hand is missing?, crown is flat instead of conical, and movement should be 16 jewel non-shockproof.
> 
> View attachment 13405581


Thanks! The fact that the made in is in English bugged me alot already


----------



## buddhawake

XsiOn said:


> I can remember Marina was selling this watches...





VWatchie said:


> buddhawake said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOSTOK-Amp...m=192628914255&_trksid=p2060778.c100277.m3477
> I've been looking for dials the past 3 days to see if it there was something similar out there. I feel like I may have seen it somewhere but I looked in books and a few sites and have not and because I'm new to all this... well, here I am.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, I never saw this, in my eyes, gorgeous dial before. I'm certainly not the man to verify if it's legit or not but it sure looks and feels like a genuine Vostok Amphibian. I think the listing pretty much says what there is to say about the dial, no?
> 
> _"Vostok Boctok Amphibian Amphibia automatic/mechaical dive watch produced for the 50th anniversary (1963-2013) of the first women in space.
> 
> Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova, a Russian cosmonaut, engineer, and politician. She was the first woman to fly in space aboard Vostok 6 on 16 June 1963 and still remains the only woman ever to have been on a solo space mission."
> _
> Besides that, is there something, in particular, you want to know about the dial? Legit or not, it would be nice to own that dial. As far as I know, Vostok hasn't produced that many dials having a space theme.
Click to expand...




mariomart said:


> buddhawake said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me anything about the dial on this watch? Is in the bay.
> View attachment 13402961
> 
> 
> *btw. anyway I can resize images? they show up huge to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I sort of remember coming across a post on another watch forum (Spanish?) that had this dial as a project. From memory it was a project that did NOT have the authority of Valentina Tereshkova and infringed on her trademark, her own name. I hope I'm getting the story right and I can't seem to find the post, but it was quite a while ago.
> 
> By the way, the mention of "Seagull" down the bottom of the dial is a reference to her mission call sign, which was Seagull
Click to expand...

Thanks guys. I just wanted to know what was up with it as I hadn't seen before I I searched a lot for 2-3 days before asking. My main intention was to know if it was legit. Is gone now so maybe someone here picked it up.


----------



## philippeF

*Re: Q&amp;amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



schnurrp said:


> Authentic.


Thanks Schnurrp !


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Patski said:


> Thanks! The fact that the made in is in English bugged me alot already


That is suspicious but the cap jewel at the escapement wheel bearing, just visible on the left held in place with a small brass spring, increases the jewel count to 17. This is the ultra-popular "stolichnie" movement with some special engraving probably for use in an all-Latin export watch.

Here is perhaps an authentic use of this movement in a mid to late '60s Poljot export model. Notice the term "UNADJUSTED" on the main bridge. For those of you unfamiliar with this term I offer: What does "adjusted" vs. "unadjusted" vs. "regulated" mean?.

I also have read that at this time there was a lower import duty on "unadjusted" watches which may explain why this term was engraved on the main movement bridge.


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Patski said:


> Thanks! The fact that the made in is in English bugged me alot already


As far as I've understood, this is not uncommon as many of the Soviet watches were manufactured for export. I have several legit (although not from the 50s and 60s) Soviet watches with "Made in USSR".


----------



## VWatchie

buddhawake said:


> Thanks guys. I just wanted to know what was up with it as I hadn't seen before I I searched a lot for 2-3 days before asking. My main intention was to know if it was legit. Is gone now so maybe someone here picked it up.


I was certainly considering it, but the seller wouldn't ship to Europe!


----------



## Dub Rubb

What do you guys think of this one. I was skeptical until I saw the catalog pic, but now I am skeptical of that too! These Russian watch scammers have me paranoid.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## MtGoat

buddhawake said:


> XsiOn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can remember Marina was selling this watches...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VWatchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> buddhawake said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOSTOK-Amp...m=192628914255&_trksid=p2060778.c100277.m3477
> I've been looking for dials the past 3 days to see if it there was something similar out there. I feel like I may have seen it somewhere but I looked in books and a few sites and have not and because I'm new to all this... well, here I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I said, I never saw this, in my eyes, gorgeous dial before. I'm certainly not the man to verify if it's legit or not but it sure looks and feels like a genuine Vostok Amphibian. I think the listing pretty much says what there is to say about the dial, no?
> 
> _"Vostok Boctok Amphibian Amphibia automatic/mechaical dive watch produced for the 50th anniversary (1963-2013) of the first women in space.
> 
> Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova, a Russian cosmonaut, engineer, and politician. She was the first woman to fly in space aboard Vostok 6 on 16 June 1963 and still remains the only woman ever to have been on a solo space mission."
> _
> Besides that, is there something, in particular, you want to know about the dial? Legit or not, it would be nice to own that dial. As far as I know, Vostok hasn't produced that many dials having a space theme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mariomart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> buddhawake said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me anything about the dial on this watch? Is in the bay.
> View attachment 13402961
> 
> 
> *btw. anyway I can resize images? they show up huge to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I sort of remember coming across a post on another watch forum (Spanish?) that had this dial as a project. From memory it was a project that did NOT have the authority of Valentina Tereshkova and infringed on her trademark, her own name. I hope I'm getting the story right and I can't seem to find the post, but it was quite a while ago.
> 
> By the way, the mention of "Seagull" down the bottom of the dial is a reference to her mission call sign, which was Seagull
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks guys. I just wanted to know what was up with it as I hadn't seen before I I searched a lot for 2-3 days before asking. My main intention was to know if it was legit. Is gone now so maybe someone here picked it up.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I tried to give you some time. But after almost a day I knew someone would snatch it up soon. I promise to get some pics and include one with the back removed.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I found this Vostok Precision on eBay. So is it original?


----------



## Patski

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



VWatchie said:


> As far as I've understood, this is not uncommon as many of the Soviet watches were manufactured for export. I have several legit (although not from the 50s and 60s) Soviet watches with "Made in USSR".


Thanks everyone! I didn't get it as it's not an original, anyway somebody already bought it, so the temptation is gone


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> I found this Vostok Precision on eBay. So is it original?


I would say authentic, from the late '60s.

The exact watch is not found in the catalogs but I think it's in this family:


----------



## schnurrp

Dub Rubb said:


> What do you guys think of this one. I was skeptical until I saw the catalog pic, but now I am skeptical of that too! These Russian watch scammers have me paranoid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Authentic. Pretty common, actually.

Searching "Raketa quartz watch" images, partial view of first page, six examples:









Your next step is to go over to St. Petersburg and see if you can locate a Raketa factory worker from the '80s. Good luck!


----------



## asorel

Just got this baby in the mail, can anyone tell me about it? 















This isn't vintage, it's a relatively modern run by Aviator, but it's still a "limited edition" piece so I suppose there's a chance it may be a counterfeit. Thanks!


----------



## asorel

Bumpan


----------



## schnurrp

asorel said:


> Just got this baby in the mail, can anyone tell me about it?
> View attachment 13418261
> 
> View attachment 13418263
> 
> 
> This isn't vintage, it's a relatively modern run by Aviator, but it's still a "limited edition" piece so I suppose there's a chance it may be a counterfeit. Thanks!


That's a Volmax "Aviator" as pictured below, I believe, in this 2010 Volmax catalog: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNCE_6TGq6UEsDpfT5FDzrmBKn6od86ECi7YFOI









The movement is perhaps the excellent Russian 17 jewel 2614 like this, one of the last movements designed and produced at the First Moscow Watch Factory beginning in the mid '70s:









Volmax was one of the companies that sprang into existence after the fall of the soviet union when the First Moscow Watch Factory went out of business. Read here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/clar...rope-some-russian-watch-brands-ufos-2618.html.


----------



## jmreynolds

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Does this look legit? I searched and found some very similar. The hands are what has me guessing. That and the stem.









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



jmreynolds said:


> Does this look legit? I searched and found some very similar. The hands are what has me guessing. That and the stem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk


The hands appear to have been made to receive lume while the dial numbers and locating dots do not. This makes me wonder if perhaps the hands are replacements. Here is a picture from a 1960 catalog of one that looks like it could be yours although it is so over-exposed it's hard to see details. Notice the similar sub-second dial with a different hand. Also notice the crown looks right. It's possible the seller forgot to press the crown in after setting the hands or the crown shaft is incorrect.


----------



## Czasomierz

Hi guys. I've just picked up this Vostok and waiting on it's arrival I'd like to learn something about it. I've never seen this particular dial on any amphibians/komandirskie posted here. Thanks a lot!


----------



## schnurrp

Czasomierz said:


> Hi guys. I've just picked up this Vostok and waiting on it's arrival I'd like to learn something about it. I've never seen this particular dial on any amphibians/komandirskie posted here. Thanks a lot!
> 
> View attachment 13429415
> View attachment 13429417
> View attachment 13429419
> View attachment 13429419


Komandirskie case, hands, and bezel with amphibian "antimagnetic" dial and movement. It's a franken. https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNIVVbOxGfFXgp_GNR2Sq3q4hJanz-cjWG9RBx-


----------



## VWatchie

schnurrp said:


> Komandirskie case, hands, and bezel with amphibian "antimagnetic" dial and movement. It's a franken. https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNIVVbOxGfFXgp_GNR2Sq3q4hJanz-cjWG9RBx-


Indeed! Never saw a cal. 2409 in a case like this. Anyway, it's a nice dial on one of my favorite movements in one of my favorite cases, and it looks like a genuine Vostok metal bracelet, so wear it with pride!


----------



## VWatchie

.


----------



## Czasomierz

Thanks to both of you! It was 30$ and I could still send it back but I'll keep it if I like it. I'll just make sure not to go swimming with it on.


----------



## audiomagnate

Czasomierz said:


> Thanks to both of you! It was 30$ and I could still send it back but I'll keep it if I like it. I'll just make sure not to go swimming with it on.


Don't take my word for it, but I wouldn't be surprised if that watch was waterproof. The only way to be sure is to remove the movement and test it, which is actually pretty easy.


----------



## audiomagnate

schnurrp said:


> That's a Volmax "Aviator" as pictured below, I believe, in this 2010 Volmax catalog: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNCE_6TGq6UEsDpfT5FDzrmBKn6od86ECi7YFOI
> 
> View attachment 13425327
> 
> 
> The movement is perhaps the excellent Russian 17 jewel 2614 like this, one of the last movements designed and produced at the First Moscow Watch Factory beginning in the mid '70s:
> 
> Volmax was one of the companies that sprang into existence after the fall of the soviet union when the First Moscow Watch Factory went out of business. Read here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/clar...rope-some-russian-watch-brands-ufos-2618.html.


With a plastic movement holder I'm guessing, right?


----------



## schnurrp

audiomagnate said:


> Don't take my word for it, but I wouldn't be surprised if that watch was waterproof. The only way to be sure is to remove the movement and test it, which is actually pretty easy.


I would agree if it was a new komandirskie. Most Vostok collectors I've heard have nothing but nice things to say about the water-tightness of their komandirskies. I think Vostok decided to spend their money on the more robust stainless steel amphibian and have its water-resistance tested by a third party so it could be used in marketing it as a "serious" dive watch.

That having been said, I would be a bit nervous about subjecting any vintage watch or any watch with an unknown history to submersion without testing first.


----------



## VWatchie

I'm in the process of servicing this, in my opinion, magnificent Amphibian Radio Room, and found something I've never seen in a Vostok 24XX movement (or any other movement) before; a stem made of&#8230; what? By the colour of it, it looks like a copper alloy, and looking at it in my stereo microscope the surface looks rougher than the normal stainless steel (?) stem.

I bought the watch from one of the "trusted sellers" on eBay (Morozov) so I would think it is legit, and I'm hardly extremely experienced but I guess I've taken apart at least 20 Vostok 24XX movements so far, and I've never seen a stem like this before. Any thoughts, or anyone else who has seen this "copper alloy" stem before?


----------



## relojafunfac

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

hi to everyone,
I've already posted my conundrum elsewhere in the forum, so: SORRY for repeating :-(
Long story short: bought Komandirskie on eBay a year ago and was love at first sight. BUT now I'm seriously questioning its integrity, as the thought of it being completely franken haunts me...
can somebody offer some insight, please?
Here are pictures with annotations regarding my doubts&concerns...














thank you


----------



## Neruda

Relojafunfac - I don't know if this is a hard and fast rule, but Komandirskies with the 3AKA3 dial (for sale in military shops) usually have plain casebacks and not the sun/seagull.


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



relojafunfac said:


> hi to everyone,
> I've already posted my conundrum elsewhere in the forum, so: SORRY for repeating :-(
> Long story short: bought Komandirskie on eBay a year ago and was love at first sight. BUT now I'm seriously questioning its integrity, as the thought of it being completely franken haunts me...
> can somebody offer some insight, please?
> Here are pictures with annotations regarding my doubts&concerns...
> View attachment 13434815
> 
> View attachment 13434821
> 
> thank you


Based on Expert Comrade Neruda's observation, and if we're going to be very strict and follow the definition of what a legit watch is, as explained by Expert Comrade Schnurrp a few posts ago, _then yes, your watch is a Franken_, due to the case back lid.

I'm no expert, but with the experience I have so far, the following is my best guesses to your questions:

I wouldn't worry about the lume on the hands. It's probably just a matter of different lume batches, and the hands could have been manufactured on different occasions.

The second's hand look authentic to me. I have a 3AKA3 paratrooper Komandirskie that's similar to yours. You can see it here, and yes my watch has a "plain case back".

If the dial is made of metal and isn't a paper counterfeit, I think it's legit. The lume was probably washed away in an attempt to clean it using detergent. That's what I do, and then re-lume it, when the dial really needs a cleanup.

Nor would I worry about the outgoing rays pattern. It was probably something that happened by mistake during manufacturing, and we all know that QC has varied quite a bit over the years

Nevertheless, it's a very nice Komandirskie, so wear it with pride!


----------



## drwelby

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



relojafunfac said:


> hi to everyone,
> I've already posted my conundrum elsewhere in the forum, so: SORRY for repeating :-(
> Long story short: bought Komandirskie on eBay a year ago and was love at first sight. BUT now I'm seriously questioning its integrity, as the thought of it being completely franken haunts me...


I have a 90's Amphibia "Scuba Dude" in the most common configuration where there would be little gained into trying to "franken" it. The second hand lume is much brighter than the hour hands and dial. I can only see the dial lume if I charge it with a UV light, and it fades very quickly. I'm not an expert but I would agree this is due to differences in production.


----------



## relojafunfac

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

*Neruda*, *VWatchie* & *drwelby*, thank you very much for your comprehensive and informative answers. you are great! :-!


----------



## VWatchie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



drwelby said:


> I have a 90's Amphibia "Scuba Dude" in the most common configuration where *there would be little gained into trying to "franken" it*. The second hand lume is much brighter than the hour hands and dial. I can only see the dial lume if I charge it with a UV light, and it fades very quickly. I'm not an expert but I would agree this is due to differences in production.


When it comes to Russian watches, my impressions is that the major reason for creating Franken watches is that sellers on eBay, Etsy, etc., often mix and match parts from non-working movements and incomplete watches to build a working, sellable watch. That is, there's no truly bad intent behind it, unless, of course, the watch is sold as _original_.

Since it is so common to mix and match parts from non-working Vostok 24XX movements to get them ticking, I've started a thread here to help to do just that. I haven't had the time to update the thread lately, but the next time I will write about differences in the balance and after that the motion work.


----------



## bxi47

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Just pulled the trigger on this minty sekonda 3017.. looks all correct to me, though I can't see the pentagon/crown logo..

Any different opinions? Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

Wow! I bet you used a big gun for that one. Beautiful.


----------



## Karsten

Is this Sturmanskie (Штурманские) 17 jewel genuine or a franken built with
Sportnivie parts and fake dial with fake patina?

Unfortunately no picture of the movement.

I have read this thread underneath, but i struggle to draw a conclusion.
Probaly because i WANT it to be genuine ?

I would like the true experts chime in.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/ever...anskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html


----------



## dutchassasin

Karsten said:


> Is this Sturmanskie (Штурманские) 17 jewel genuine or a franken built with
> Sportnivie parts and fake dial with fake patina?


well im not a true expert but the hands should be blued on a real one. these are silver like a normal sportivnie.
dial looks dodgy as well. im sorry 

But lets wait for the true experts like for example Schnurrp, who always roams around here


----------



## bpmurray

dutchassasin said:


> well im not a true expert but the hands should be blued on a real one. these are silver like a normal sportivnie.
> dial looks dodgy as well. im sorry
> 
> But lets wait for the true experts like for example Schnurrp, who always roams around here


I agree, there is essentially a 0% chance the hands are genuine. The blue color on the originals is not paint, but from a chemical process -- it would not come off over time. The dial bothers me as well because the lume is very yellow instead of aged brown. But, the dial COULD be original, I just don't know based on this photo.


----------



## Knives and Lint

Hey guys, I wasn't quite sure where to post this, but then I saw this thread and it seemed like it might be a good place. This is a hand-winding Ruhla Jump Hour, bought off of eBay, advertised as new old stock condition. I don't know much about these other than what little I've found here on the forums from rather old threads. I just came across it while searching for birth year watches, and it immediately struck me as cool. For the price I paid I'm content with it being just that, a cool watch, but I figured I'd post it here and see what some more knowledgeable people thought as to it's authenticity as a NOS vintage piece from the 70's. FWIW, Everything looks good to my untrained eye, including a comparison to the same model being sold on Chrono24 by a trusted seller, with the exact same strap and similar box.


----------



## schnurrp

Karsten said:


> Is this Sturmanskie (Штурманские) 17 jewel genuine or a franken built with
> Sportnivie parts and fake dial with fake patina?
> 
> Unfortunately no picture of the movement.
> 
> I have read this thread underneath, but i struggle to draw a conclusion.
> Probaly because i WANT it to be genuine ?
> 
> I would like the true experts chime in.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/ever...anskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html


I agree with what others are saying and would add the dial lacks any sign of ageing other than the loss of finish at the left edge. With that in mind I would expect the original lume to be in place recognized as a build-up of thickness and, since it was applied by hand, evidently, crossing over the outlines of the numbers in some places. That one's perhaps a little too flat and neat.

















Also second hand has been re-painted and is too short.


----------



## jmreynolds

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Hey, experts, would export watches(English on dials, etc) have Cyrillic case backs? I have a couple that I am questioning. I have seen dials but not case backs. Thanks

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Knives and Lint said:


> Hey guys, I wasn't quite sure where to post this, but then I saw this thread and it seemed like it might be a good place. This is a hand-winding Ruhla Jump Hour, bought off of eBay, advertised as new old stock condition. I don't know much about these other than what little I've found here on the forums from rather old threads. I just came across it while searching for birth year watches, and it immediately struck me as cool. For the price I paid I'm content with it being just that, a cool watch, but I figured I'd post it here and see what some more knowledgeable people thought as to it's authenticity as a NOS vintage piece from the 70's. FWIW, Everything looks good to my untrained eye, including a comparison to the same model being sold on Chrono24 by a trusted seller, with the exact same strap and similar box.
> 
> View attachment 13451601
> 
> 
> View attachment 13451605


Looks good to me. Mine from years ago during my Ruhla phase:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/ruhla-has-landed-636090.html


----------



## Knives and Lint

schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me. Mine from years ago during my Ruhla phase:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/ruhla-has-landed-636090.html


Cool, thanks!...I remember coming across your posts when I was searching. This was the first I've seen of these types of watches, and I was immediately taken by them. They remind me of some of the clocks my Grandmother had in her house when I was a child. Plus I just love the 70's vibe. Fun watches!

I have noticed that it runs a bit fast. Perhaps it got magnetized in transit or maybe it's just not all that accurate. Either way I am pleased with it for what it is.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear my friends,

What's about Poljot 3017?


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear my friends,

What's about Poljot 3017? Is this watch original?


----------



## 440_Hz

Hi guys! These photos are from a seller on ebay. This Komandirskie cadet doesn't seem to have a stamp on the movement, as far as I can tell. Is that bad news, or okay?









Here is the front of the watch for model reference.









And here is an example from a different cadet on ebay that does sport the stamp on the movement. To my non-expert eyes, they look pretty much the same.


----------



## Neruda

440_Hz, the second movement is earlier, probably around 1980 to 1985. It has a serial number and the edge of the movement is bevelled. The first watch appears to date from the 1990s after the end of the Soviet Union as the dial is not marked "CCCP". My opinion is original!


----------



## 440_Hz

Thank you for the input Neruda! I am probably going to buy it now, with my sole hesitation being that it will take up to anywhere from 3 weeks to 2 months ("or sometimes even more", says the seller) to get here. Oof.

Edit: I've ordered it.


----------



## Jsjay

I purchased a Rodina, but the seller said the dial was new, so I'm not sure what to make of that. New to watch buying so I may have to chalk this up as a learning experience. The dial looks like several others I've seen on eBay so not sure what to make of the whole thing. Might be new old stock? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## schnurrp

Jsjay said:


> I purchased a Rodina, but the seller said the dial was new, so I'm not sure what to make of that. New to watch buying so I may have to chalk this up as a learning experience. The dial looks like several others I've seen on eBay so not sure what to make of the whole thing. Might be new old stock? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


Looking at the rest of the watch it appears to be in mint condition. If that's true then I don't know why the dial would have been replaced. Unfortunately the dial picture is really too small to tell if it has the rounded numeral ends found on the authentic dial pictured below. Repro has square end numerals.


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear my friends,
> 
> What's about Poljot 3017? Is this watch original?


I don't see anything to complain about from what you've shown.


----------



## Chascomm

Jsjay said:


> I purchased a Rodina, but the seller said the dial was new, so I'm not sure what to make of that. New to watch buying so I may have to chalk this up as a learning experience. The dial looks like several others I've seen on eBay so not sure what to make of the whole thing. Might be new old stock? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


If the seller has bothered to alert you to the fact that the dial is "new" then you can definitely take that to mean new-new, not new-old-stock. In other words, a degraded original dial has been replaced with a new reproduction of the old style. However the rest of the watch seems to be original. The condition of the case is so good (for a watch that apparently needed the dial replaced) that I can't help wondering if it has been stripped and replated. If so, they did a great job of preserving the crisp lines.


----------



## pump 19

schnurrp said:


> Looking at the rest of the watch it appears to be in mint condition. If that's true then I don't know why the dial would have been replaced. Unfortunately the dial picture is really too small to tell if it has the rounded numeral ends found on the authentic dial pictured below. Repro has square end numerals.


Here is one of the new Rodina dials from ebay.


----------



## Jsjay

Thanks to all of you for your advice and information. I really appreciate it. I plan to wear it and be grateful knowing much more about it. In the future, I'll know to come here first with questions. You are all the best. Thanks.


----------



## Jsjay

I thought it looked really shiney. I think you are right that something was done to the chrome. It's an awful lot of work done to a watch that wasn't very expensive. Thank you.


----------



## Jsjay

I thought it looked really shiney. I think you are right that something was done to the chrome. It's an awful lot of work done to a watch that wasn't very expensive. Thank you.


----------



## Jsjay

Here's a bigger picture of the dial on the watch. I noticed looking at Mark Gordon's site that the hands looked correct.


----------



## schnurrp

Jsjay said:


> View attachment 13482275
> 
> 
> Here's a bigger picture of the dial on the watch. I noticed looking at Mark Gordon's site that the hands looked correct.


Yes, repro dial, glad it wasn't expensive although beginners' idea of "expensive" differs, sometimes, from buyers with more experience. Even though the seller told you it was a new dial, if he advertised the watch initially as "authentic", I would expect the "new" dial to be authentic "NOS", not a repro. You have a case for returning it, in my opinion.

What did you pay?


----------



## Jsjay

I paid less than $90, but that was still probably too much. I think I'll keep it. I can wear it without worrying that I'm the caretaker for something that needs to be preserved and protected. I really appreciate the information.


----------



## Jsjay

It was also very interesting to learn that they actually reproduced the dial. I never would have guessed it.


----------



## Jsjay

What are your thoughts: Would it be worth getting an authentic dial to "defrankenfy" the watch?


----------



## jmreynolds

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Bought this as a lot at an antique shop near Harrisburg, PA. Don't know that the seller knew about what he was selling, there was a Hamilton pocket watch from 1932(working) included for a total cost to $50. This one is what I had questions about. The movement is loose in the case, almost like the case is too big. Tightening the back does not fix it, neither does adding a gasket.









Sent from the gulag via carrier pigeon


----------



## haha

Jsjay said:


> What are your thoughts: Would it be worth getting an authentic dial to "defrankenfy" the watch?


Depends on your priority : to have an authentic watch even if it looks worn or to wear a good looking watch looking exactly like the original one. I usually go for authenticity, but in that particular case, i would enjoy having this "brand new" sixty years old lady on the wrist.
If you prefer the first option, i still wouldn't bother to defrankenfy this one. I would sell it and look for another one.


----------



## Jsjay

haha said:


> Depends on your priority : to have an authentic watch even if it looks worn or to wear a good looking watch looking exactly like the original one. I usually go for authenticity, but in that particular case, i would enjoy having this "brand new" sixty years old lady on the wrist.
> If you prefer the first option, i still wouldn't bother to defrankenfy this one. I would sell it and look for another one.


Thanks for your thoughts on this. I really appreciate it. I think I'll keep as is and enjoy.


----------



## Karsten

Yet another Raketa Big Zero?
At first glimse it is a Big Zero, but it is the small Ø 34 mm straight lugs version.
The "full size" Big Zero measures Ø 39 mm.
Usually the "mini" Big Zero has a black dial with silver hands, and i have not found any pictures of a "mini" with white dial/black hands.
The dial is looking correct (fonts and indices) and is not just printet on a photocopyer, and i hope it is legit.
I found info about the "mini" in this older thread:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-big-zero-mini-size-questions-1894722.html

Photo # 1: "mini" Big zero
Photo # 2: "mini" compared to "full size" (unfortunately WRONG hands)
Photo # 3: same 2609 HA movement


----------



## schnurrp

Karsten said:


> Yet another Raketa Big Zero?
> At first glimse it is a Big Zero, but it is the small Ø 34 mm straight lugs version.
> The "full size" Big Zero measures Ø 39 mm.
> Usually the "mini" Big Zero has a black dial with silver hands, and i have not found any pictures of a "mini" with white dial/black hands.
> The dial is looking correct (fonts and indices) and is not just printet on a photocopyer, and i hope it is legit.
> I found info about the "mini" in this older thread:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-big-zero-mini-size-questions-1894722.html
> 
> Photo # 1: "mini" Big zero
> Photo # 2: "mini" compared to "full size" (unfortunately WRONG hands)
> Photo # 3: same 2609 HA movement


It's authentic.


----------



## Jsjay

You were all so helpful earlier. I looked online to see if this was a dial that was reproduced. I couldn't find any examples. I also looked up Raketa examples on the forum. So, I am hoping this is legitimate. I think it would make a nice dress watch. Thank you for any advice or expertise you can share.


----------



## schnurrp

Jsjay said:


> You were all so helpful earlier. I looked online to see if this was a dial that was reproduced. I couldn't find any examples. I also looked up Raketa examples on the forum. So, I am hoping this is legitimate. I think it would make a nice dress watch. Thank you for any advice or expertise you can share.


One of these, I believe, either #5 or #7.


----------



## Jsjay

schnurrp said:


> One of these, I believe, either #5 or #7.
> 
> View attachment 13489679


Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.


----------



## JimmyOlber

Firstly would just like to say wow and am so impressed with the knowledge(and collections!) from many of the frequent contributors in this thread, spent much of yesterday going page by page, beginning to current end and I feel grateful for all the information and found resources |>

That said, this looks good to my untrained eye and according to this helpful bit of information:



Neruda said:


> If the movement has a sloping, beveled edge it is generally earlier. If it is beveled and there is a serial number under the balance, it is probably pre-1980. If it is beveled and has the letters SU it will be circa 1980. If it has the letters SU but doesn't have the bevel, circa 1985. If the only marking on it is the Bostok logo under the balance, it is late, perhaps circa 1990.


Movement should be correct? Also, is this a terribly rare piece or often found floating around the bay? And 50usd for such an example seems reasonable? It looks to be in great shape and I would have already jumped on it but have pulled trigger on a couple watches this month..

Thoughts?

edit: Upon further inspection it seems this balance cock has been replaced with one from an older movement..


----------



## haha

The dial is in a really great condition, which is not so common for that watch. If the price isn't completely crazy, i'd say go for it, it will make a great dress watch.


----------



## haha

JimmyOlber said:


> Firstly would just like to say wow and am so impressed with the knowledge(and collections!) from many of the frequent contributors in this thread, spent much of yesterday going page by page, beginning to current end and I feel grateful for all the information and found resources |>
> 
> That said, this looks good to my untrained eye and according to this helpful bit of information:
> 
> Movement should be correct? Also, is this a terribly rare piece or often found floating around the bay? And 50usd for such an example seems reasonable? It looks to be in great shape and I would have already jumped on it but have pulled trigger on a couple watches this month..
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 13490429


It's not really a rare piece, but any russian watch in a great condition (mainly the dial) can become a rare thing. 50USD is not shocking, but not cheap either, maybe you can get a better price if you're patient.


----------



## schnurrp

haha said:


> It's not really a rare piece, but any russian watch in a great condition (mainly the dial) can become a rare thing. 50USD is not shocking, but not cheap either, maybe you can get a better price if you're patient.


Don't hesitate to make an offer even if that alternative is not part of the seller's advertisement. If the seller declines you're back where you started and often sellers will accept a reasonable offer.


----------



## schnurrp

.


----------



## JimmyOlber

haha said:


> It's not really a rare piece, but any russian watch in a great condition (mainly the dial) can become a rare thing. 50USD is not shocking, but not cheap either, maybe you can get a better price if you're patient.





schnurrp said:


> Don't hesitate to make an offer even if that alternative is not part of the seller's advertisement. If the seller declines you're back where you started and often sellers will accept a reasonable offer.


Many thanks!

Love the dial, case and hands so much I decided that I couldn't pass it up regardless of incorrect balance.. made an offer and it was accepted


----------



## VWatchie

440_Hz said:


> Hi guys! These photos are from a seller on ebay. This Komandirskie cadet doesn't seem to have a stamp on the movement, as far as I can tell. Is that bad news, or okay?
> 
> View attachment 13475713
> 
> 
> Here is the front of the watch for model reference.
> 
> View attachment 13475715
> 
> 
> And here is an example from a different cadet on ebay that does sport the stamp on the movement. To my non-expert eyes, they look pretty much the same.
> 
> View attachment 13475725


Did you get it? How's it doing? I wonder due to the hairspring which looks "a bit funny". I've seen hairsprings looking funnier than that which has been ticking just fine, so just curious.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hey everyone! 

Like almost everyone here I would really like to have an original OKEAH. I found this one online. Could anyone tell me if it is original?


----------



## bpmurray

Jeroenskie said:


> Hey everyone!
> 
> Like almost everyone here I would really like to have an original OKEAH. I found this one online. Could anyone tell me if it is original?


I am pretty sure that is either a modern homage, or a re-dial. Specifically, the constant seconds disc intrudes onto the seconds index. On the originals, there was a gap.

Compare:









I am far from an expert on 3133's, so I'd wait for others to chime in. I easily could be totally wrong here.


----------



## schnurrp

This is how I spot a knock-off dial:















Last tick on red scale should be positioned equally between the "1" and the "0" at "10". Authentic on the right above.

Modern replacement hands, too blunt with rectangular lume slots. Should be like these:









Special back is missing.









Case may be chrome plated going by the difference in color between the ss lug pins and crown (warm) and case (cold).









Should look like this:


----------



## Jeroenskie

Thanks comrades! I will pass on this watch then.


----------



## 440_Hz

VWatchie said:


> Did you get it? How's it doing? I wonder due to the hairspring which looks "a bit funny". I've seen hairsprings looking funnier than that which has been ticking just fine, so just curious.


Yes, I bought it! However, it won't be here for another several weeks. I'm playing the "just bought a watch from Russia" waiting game, which I'm sure you are all familiar with.

I had to google what a hairspring was in order to figure out what you are talking about. Now I think I can see what you're saying is funny -- it should look like a nice spiral, right? And the one I bought looks a bit... lumpy.

The item description said "fully serviced by watchmaker" and "runs strong and keeps good time", so if there is a major issue upon arrival I'll be sure to dispute it.


----------



## momosalah

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear my friends,
> 
> What's about Poljot 3017? Is this watch original?


My fellow 🇻🇳 comrade. I know where do you see this one 😉 very nice watch


----------



## miquel99

Sorry Comrades, I have a question for an Spanish friend about the slava Diver; I saw one time one like this but dont remember when... its legit or franken??

























Seems legit but I want your opinion. Thank you for your help


----------



## dutchassasin

miquel99 said:


> Sorry Comrades, I have a question for an Spanish friend about the slava Diver; I saw one time one like this but dont remember when... its legit or franken??
> 
> Seems legit but I want your opinion. Thank you for your help


Not an expert but the dial and caseback dont seem to be from a slava amphibian. Lets wait for the more knowledgeable collectors to give a final verdict


----------



## miquel99

maybe its posible the dial ans case back was from Slava captain??


----------



## bpmurray

miquel99 said:


> Sorry Comrades, I have a question for an Spanish friend about the slava Diver; I saw one time one like this but dont remember when... its legit or franken??
> 
> Seems legit but I want your opinion. Thank you for your help


This one came up once before -- the general consensus is that it is pieced together from multiple parts including a post-Soviet "Kapitan" dial.

You can tell from the number of differences between this, and a "true" Slava Amphibia. The dial is different -- it should be flat black without the internal vertical striping. It also shouldn't say Automatic, or be Automatic -- the original has a hand-wound 2414. Also, yours says Made in Russia at the bottom of the dial, right inside the chapter ring between the 7 o'clock and 5 o'clock lume squares.

If it were me, I'd pass. I'm also open to this being a legitimate item, but I haven't seen enough evidence; even if so, it is probably from the mid- to late-1990's instead of the 70's-80's of the original Slava Amphibian.


----------



## miquel99

i was suspect your reasonable think. Ok not for me and now i have an idea. Thank you Comrades!!


----------



## skipvel

Wondering if the Poljot experts can give an opinion on the authenticity of this watch.(after I bought it naturally)



















Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

skipvel said:


> Wondering if the Poljot experts can give an opinion on the authenticity of this watch.(after I bought it naturally)
> View attachment 13519981
> View attachment 13519983
> View attachment 13519987
> 
> Thanks


I would say authentic, looking like this one from a 1992 Poljot catalog:









Rarely seen by me with CCCP origin on dial and gold colored balance wheel. I wouldn't mind having one of those.


----------



## skipvel

Thanks schnurrp. 
Looked ok to me; but so do 90% of the fake sturmanskies etc. that I see on the internet. There are always little things that you don't notice that make all the difference.


----------



## schnurrp

skipvel said:


> Thanks schnurrp.
> Looked ok to me; but so do 90% of the fake sturmanskies etc. that I see on the internet. There are always little things that you don't notice that make all the difference.


Well, I think you lucked out with that one. Enjoy.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hi everyone, 

Rencently I'm really interested in the 3133 Sturmanskie's especially the older ones with the airforce logo. I found this one online. I was wondering what you think, does it look correct? And if so, is it an early model or late model? What would you consider a fair price for this watch? The only problem is that the seller did not include a photo of the movement.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## MattBrace

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Rencently I'm really interested in the 3133 Sturmanskie's especially the older ones with the airforce logo. I found this one online. I was wondering what you think, does it look correct? And if so, is it an early model or late model? What would you consider a fair price for this watch? The only problem is that the seller did not include a photo of the movement.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


A decent example correct case dial and hands combination. 
Really need to see the movement but looking at the font of the date I would say mid 80's, certainly worth asking for a movement pic to confirm.

Cheers...


----------



## Jeroenskie

MattBrace said:


> A decent example correct case dial and hands combination.
> Really need to see the movement but looking at the font of the date I would say mid 80's, certainly worth asking for a movement pic to confirm.
> 
> Cheers...


Thanks! I asked some pictures of the movement and he sent me these. They are a bit blurry but what do you think?


----------



## MattBrace

Jeroenskie said:


> MattBrace said:
> 
> 
> 
> A decent example correct case dial and hands combination.
> Really need to see the movement but looking at the font of the date I would say mid 80's, certainly worth asking for a movement pic to confirm.
> 
> Cheers...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! I asked some pictures of the movement and he sent me these. They are a bit blurry but what do you think?
Click to expand...

I seem nothing out of place, dates from around 84-85' a good all original example.

Cheers...


----------



## Chascomm

schnurrp said:


> Well, I think you lucked out with that one. Enjoy.


Did you know that in those parts of the English-speaking world outside of North America, the phrase "lucked out" has the opposite meaning?


----------



## schnurrp

Chascomm said:


> Did you know that in those parts of the English-speaking world outside of North America, the phrase "lucked out" has the opposite meaning?


No I didn't. Thanks for that information, comrade Chascomm, I definitely meant it speaking as a North American.

I thought this was interesting re "lucked out":


----------



## buddhawake

Chascomm said:


> Did you know that in those parts of the English-speaking world outside of North America, the phrase "lucked out" has the opposite meaning?


Is it because of the "out" part?


----------



## Jsjay

Hello, I was wondering if this Poljot 2608 is legitimate. I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have. My concern is that I don't see examples for comparison. I checked Mark Gordon's site and looked for 2608 here without much success. Many thanks in advance for any information.













View attachment 13540073


----------



## Kamburov

Jsjay said:


> Hello, I was wondering if this Poljot 2608 is legitimate. I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have. My concern is that I don't see examples for comparison. I checked Mark Gordon's site and looked for 2608 here without much success. Many thanks in advance for any information.


Not legitimate, stay away comrade!
Looks like every part of it belonged to a different watch. Actually this could be a good riddle for the more expert members to guess the exact number of watches used to put this together. I think it's at least five. 
Also the dial has been artisticly redone. 
Avoid!
Ivan


----------



## Jsjay

Kamburov said:


> Not legitimate, stay away comrade!
> Looks like every part of it belonged to a different watch. Actually this could be a good riddle for the more expert members to guess the exact number of watches used to put this together. I think it's at least five.
> Also the dial has been artisticly redone.
> Avoid!
> Ivan


Thanks very much. I'm glad I checked and very grateful for the advice.


----------



## Grandroyale

Hello comrades! Excited to bring you a recent purchase to help me research. I know that vympel and luch had many different dial variations including Arabic like the one shown here but I haven't seen any with such large indices. Is this original to the watch or a Franken dial?

Thanks!!









Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Grandroyale said:


> Hello comrades! Excited to bring you a recent purchase to help me research. I know that vympel and luch had many different dial variations including Arabic like the one shown here but I haven't seen any with such large indices. Is this original to the watch or a Franken dial?
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


That one has possibilities although I couldn't find it in the catalogs I have available. I do have my doubts about the hands which I would expect to be simple black batons although those are Luch hands.

As a beginner my advice would be to stick to those that are pictured in catalogs to help ensure authenticity unless a cheap price coupled with good condition makes it worth a gamble. And, of course, researching a _potential _purchase makes more sense.


----------



## Jsjay

Hello --

Just wanted your opinion on this Poljot watch. I'm interested in making an offer, but only if the dial is not a new reproduction. Seller has a good reputation, but I'm more interested in what all of you think. As always, I thank you very much for giving of your time and experience.



























Thank you.


----------



## Jsjay

Delete double post.


----------



## audiomagnate

Jsjay said:


> Delete double post.


Looks good to me, but wait for confirmation from the real experts.


----------



## schnurrp

Jsjay said:


> Hello --
> 
> Just wanted your opinion on this Poljot watch. I'm interested in making an offer, but only if the dial is not a new reproduction. Seller has a good reputation, but I'm more interested in what all of you think. As always, I thank you very much for giving of your time and experience.
> 
> View attachment 13550691
> View attachment 13550693
> View attachment 13550695
> View attachment 13550697
> 
> 
> Thank you.


Authentic except perhaps the crown.

From 1972 catalog:


----------



## Jsjay

schnurrp said:


> Authentic except perhaps the crown.
> 
> From 1972 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 13550937


Thank you so much. I feel much better making an offer. I really appreciate it.


----------



## Jsjay

audiomagnate said:


> Looks good to me, but wait for confirmation from the real experts.


Thank you for your thoughts on this. I appreciate it.


----------



## pump 19

Be grateful for an opinion on this Big Zero. Described as NOS and condition appears to validate this. At least no wear apparent. Seems to pass the major tests, hands, case, crystal but not sure about dial. Does font and spacing look correct? Specifically, сделано в cccp. Seeing lots of "NOS" examples of these right now, makes me wonder. Thanks


----------



## pump 19

Here is another detail on this Big Zero...hour mark indices appear short to me.


----------



## Kamburov

Not an expert, but agree with you. The nour marker triangles' hight should be approximately as much as the numbers' width. In all catalogues and authentic examples the tip of the minute hand appear to reach the tips of the triangles. No gap, as you 19 noticed. 
You noticed the "sdelano v sssr" print, but check the closeup of the 3. The midsection of the 3 is also badly printed, edges that aren't supposed to be there. 
Most importantly, on that closeup I can see the printer's ink printing pattern (the lines of white dots). I think I see that pattern in the 6 too.
So my humble opinion is that the dial has been done on a modern printing machine, and the print is not very even. 
I may be wrong, but if it looks fake then for me it's most probably fake. Some of it may be new old stock, but the dial is just new.
Ivan

PS: Forgot my manners  Welcome to the forum!


----------



## pump 19

Kamburov said:


> In all catalogues and authentic examples the tip of the minute hand appear to reach the tips of the triangles. No gap


Yep, I noticed that gap too. Also spacing between letters CCCP. I have noticed this Big Zero dial currently offered by 2 or 3 different ebay sellers whose listings look very similar in design and description to each other.


----------



## Kamburov

pump 19 said:


> Yep, I noticed that gap too. Also spacing between letters CCCP. I have noticed this Big Zero dial currently offered by 2 or 3 different ebay sellers whose listings look very similar in design and description to each other.


Can you post links to others like that one? If fake NOS are being produced, it's good to be aware of them. These cases were produced for many models, well into the 90s. Hand sets are easy to find too. It's fairly easy to assemble a fake NOS watch. The big zero is the most iconic dial for that case, so I'm not surprised if that was the chosen design to be printed. 
It's a good looking watch, but from the photos I'm 99% sure it's not what it pretends to be.


----------



## pump 19

Earlier I noticed these 3 ebay vendors are or were recently offering what *appear* to be similar Big Zeros. Two of the three list Krasnograd or Krasnogradsky, Ukraine as location. servicevintage... shows Kiev. In the end I lack the experience to judge authenticity here. Just different than what I'm used to seeing.

vendor - blymba
Men`s Soviet Russian RAKETA BIG ZERO watch 2609.HA

oldwatch2015
NEW N.O.S Men`s Soviet USSR watch RAKETA BIG ZERO 2609.HA

servicevintagewatches2012
Men`s Soviet Russian RAKETA BIG ZERO watch 2609.HA USSR ORIGINAL


----------



## Kamburov

Thanks! 
While soviet watch production is famous for it's quality control issues (especially during the early 90s), I don't think that's the case here. I may be wrong, but I have my oppinion. This raketa model is well catalogued and well known. 
I don't think it's a quincidence that a several NOS zeros appear at the same time, from the same region and with the same dial, bearing the same inconsistencies (from the same printer, I think). Nevermind the papers. Anyone seen an authentic one of those before? There are many collectors in this forum, also members in other forums, including watch.ru. 
Most importantly, on some of the closeup photos I can see the pixels of the print. It's black on white, you don't get a better contrast than that. And it's not the quality of the photo. The hands are black on white too, and the edges are smooth and even. The dial print, however is pixelated and uneven. The edges are saw like, because that's how a printer does it.
Random photo of the examples you posted, zoomed in:








Compare the print edges to the edges of the hands. 
The original is just different. It's smoother and more rounded edges, nothing like the printer.


----------



## pump 19

Kamburov said:


> Thanks!
> While soviet watch production is famous for it's quality control issues (especially during the early 90s), I don't think that's the case here. I may be wrong, but I have my oppinion. This raketa model is well catalogued and well known.


Appreciate the info Here is another current ebay Big Zero listing that has the same minute hand gap appearance. Watch located in Kiev.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Men-s-Vintage-Soviet-Russian-RAKETA-BIG-ZERO-watch-2609HA-USSR/263986161048?hash=item3d76cd2598:g:sRoAAOSw8MZbrLHZ:rk:12f:0


----------



## schnurrp

Here's a comparison to mine which I believe is NOS:









https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=U0VNeV9IeE9HNG0wSEQwOVB4TkpvaS1xUzN2eWVB


----------



## pump 19

schnurrp said:


> Here's a comparison to mine which I believe is NOS:


Thanks. I'm seeing 4-5 sellers offering what look like identical dialed Zeros right now. All from Ukraine. Most are listing them as NOS, original or both. Do you think the linked dial examples are non-factory production? Not Raketa?


----------



## schnurrp

pump 19 said:


> Thanks. I'm seeing 4-5 sellers offering what look like identical dialed Zeros right now. All from Ukraine. Most are listing them as NOS, original or both. Do you think the linked dial examples are non-factory production? Not Raketa?


I don't know. If they're being presented as NOS do any of them have convincing papers and box?


----------



## pump 19

schnurrp said:


> I don't know. If they're being presented as NOS do any of them have convincing papers and box?


The NOS labeled ones do not have paperwork. The others use terms like *ORIGINAL 100%* or *ORIGINAL!* Probably beat this horse enough. Seems questionable enough I'll move on to other examples. Thanks


----------



## Kamburov

For me it's quite simple. They don't respond to any catalogue (or any other solid proof), and I would consider them non authentic, until proven otherwise. Until then I would stick to what I know to be legit.
Ivan


----------



## pump 19

Kamburov said:


> They don't respond to any catalogue (or any other solid proof), and I would consider them non authentic


Good advice I think, thank you.


----------



## schnurrp

pump 19 said:


> The NOS labeled ones do not have paperwork. The others use terms like *ORIGINAL 100%* or *ORIGINAL!* Probably beat this horse enough. Seems questionable enough I'll move on to other examples. Thanks


You will learn to ignore the descriptions made by the seller (unless you have a disputed claim on a return) and believe your own, and others', eyes and research.


----------



## miquel99

Sorry, I was wrong


----------



## JoshDunk

Hi there

Long time lurker looking to get my first Soviet watch. This one looks ok,at, but I have noticed there are new replacement dials being sold on eBay. I'd like an original one. Does this one look good to y'all? Cheers


----------



## skipvel

How about this Bam watch?






















I don't like the hands but not sure about the rest. There are many commemorative watches with few or no images on the internet. I saw a similar (kind of) watch on Wus with a dark background but not this colour scheme. 
Thanks for the input.


----------



## haha

JoshDunk said:


> Hi there
> 
> Long time lurker looking to get my first Soviet watch. This one looks ok,at, but I have noticed there are new replacement dials being sold on eBay. I'd like an original one. Does this one look good to y'all? Cheers
> View attachment 13556159


Looks good to me. The dial is worn enough not to be fake and clean enough to make it a pleasant watch to wear. |>


----------



## JoshDunk

haha said:


> Looks good to me. The dial is worn enough not to be fake and clean enough to make it a pleasant watch to wear. |>


Appreciate it. Cheers. Josh


----------



## Kamburov

haha said:


> Looks good to me. The dial is worn enough not to be fake and clean enough to make it a pleasant watch to wear. |>


Agree with haha on this one. This looks like a very well preserved dial of a worn watch. Actually the whole package looks good to me. Even the crown wear is consistent with the rest of the watch. 
Good choice, Josh, and welcome to the forum!
Ivan


----------



## JoshDunk

Kamburov said:


> Agree with haha on this one. This looks like a very well preserved dial of a worn watch. Actually the whole package looks good to me. Even the crown wear is consistent with the rest of the watch.
> Good choice, Josh, and welcome to the forum!
> Ivan


Thank you. Hope I get it for a decent bid.


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi you fellow experts,

What do you think of tis one? When would you date it from? Thx





No picture of the movement


----------



## Kamburov

From the 1992 catalogue


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks Ivan.
I can't really read what's on the bootom of the dial but I guess "mine" is made in USSR while the on ein the catalogue seems to be made in Russia.
Any chance "mine" is older (I'm looking for a nice and a bit original one from the 60s)?


----------



## schnurrp

skipvel said:


> How about this Bam watch?
> View attachment 13556221
> 
> View attachment 13556223
> 
> View attachment 13556225
> 
> 
> I don't like the hands but not sure about the rest. There are many commemorative watches with few or no images on the internet. I saw a similar (kind of) watch on Wus with a dark background but not this colour scheme.
> Thanks for the input.


Unlikely. This soviet-era case should have a dial, even if a commemorative, with Boctok "B" and "made in USSR" printed on it. Also, the use of the "meatball" second hand with baton hour and minute hands is unprecedented in my experience.


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks Ivan.
> I can't really read what's on the bootom of the dial but I guess "mine" is made in USSR while the on ein the catalogue seems to be made in Russia.
> Any chance "mine" is older (I'm looking for a nice and a bit original one from the 60s)?


These models were made in the beginning of the 90's, maybe till about 97-98. At some point they started printing "made in russia" (oficially from 1995, I think)
, following the fall of the ussr. It's a transition period. In one raketa catalogue from the beginning of the 90s I've seen both "russia" and "ussr" printed on the watches. The movements were still SU (soviet union) in both. 
So it's not a surprise, yours was made probably at the very beginning of the 90s.
If you spot anything else you like (older), post it here, and I'm sure friends in the forum will give you good advice. 
Good luck!
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks Ivan.
> I can't really read what's on the bootom of the dial but I guess "mine" is made in USSR while the on ein the catalogue seems to be made in Russia.
> Any chance "mine" is older (I'm looking for a nice and a bit original one from the 60s)?


These models were made in the beginning of the 90's, maybe till about 97-98. At some point they started printing "made in russia" (oficially from 1995, I think)
, following the fall of the ussr. It's a transition period. In one raketa catalogue from the beginning of the 90s I've seen both "russia" and "ussr" printed on the watches. The movements were still SU (soviet union) in both. 
So it's not a surprise, yours was made probably at the very beginning of the 90s.
If you spot anything else you like (older), post it here, and I'm sure friends in the forum will give you good advice. 
Good luck!
Ivan


----------



## skipvel

schnurrp said:


> Unlikely. This soviet-era case should have a dial, even if a commemorative, with Boctok "B" and "made in USSR" printed on it. Also, the use of the "meatball" second hand with baton hour and minute hands is unprecedented in my experience.


Thanks schnurrp. 
So this one would also be off with no "B' or made in? Date window is obviously covered up and I believe it has a 2209 instead of the 2214.

Going for almost 500 on etsy!!!


----------



## t3tan3k

skipvel said:


> Thanks schnurrp.
> So this one would also be off with no "B' or made in? Date window is obviously covered up and I believe it has a 2209 instead of the 2214.
> 
> Going for almost 500 on etsy!!!
> 
> View attachment 13566071
> View attachment 13566073


Wow that looks way cool and I don't typically like commemorative pictorial dials. Love the font and subject matter too. From searching around, it looks like this dial was only ever featured together with a seemingly mis-matched date-window cut-out chapter ring. Like here:

https://www.avito.ru/moskva/kollekt...fibiya_vostok_naruchnye_chasy_sssr_1066047543

or here (bad quality image)
https://pikabu.ru/story/raritetnyie_chasyi_quotbamquot_3681125

According to the avito listing as well as some russian language forum discussions, the dial is possibly an "Артельный циферблат", meaning it likely was not made by any watch factory and was likely never "natively" fitted on any watch at any factory. It is not necessarily "fake" as it doesn't feature a manufaturer's logo, and it is not a one-off by a long shot either since these have popped up here and there over the years. Look up the wikipedia article on "artel" to understand what that is - essentially, a cooperative of masters/artists/artisans type thing. A possible analogy I guess may be if one wanted a custom dial to commemorate an event and decided to order a bunch in Сhina (though this one almost certainly wasn't made in Сhina and is not new) to then be locally fitted with whatever case/mechanism the end-user wanted.. Hope this helps

No way I would pay $500 for it, but would be extremely tempted at $150 or so...

t3tan3k


----------



## skipvel

t3tan3k said:


> Wow that looks way cool and I don't typically like commemorative pictorial dials. Love the font and subject matter too. From searching around, it looks like this dial was only ever featured together with a seemingly mis-matched date-window cut-out chapter ring. Like here:
> 
> https://www.avito.ru/moskva/kollekt...fibiya_vostok_naruchnye_chasy_sssr_1066047543
> 
> or here (bad quality image)
> https://pikabu.ru/story/raritetnyie_chasyi_quotbamquot_3681125
> 
> According to the avito listing as well as some russian language forum discussions, the dial is possibly an "Артельный циферблат", meaning it likely was not made by any watch factory and was likely never "natively" fitted on any watch at any factory. It is not necessarily "fake" as it doesn't feature a manufaturer's logo, and it is not a one-off by a long shot either since these have popped up here and there over the years. Look up the wikipedia article on "artel" to understand what that is - essentially, a cooperative of masters/artists/artisans type thing. A possible analogy I guess may be if one wanted a custom dial to commemorate an event and decided to order a bunch in Сhina (though this one almost certainly wasn't made in Сhina and is not new) to then be locally fitted with whatever case/mechanism the end-user wanted.. Hope this helps
> 
> No way I would pay $500 for it, but would be extremely tempted at $150 or so...
> 
> t3tan3k


 Thank you t3tan3k for all the info.
I searched on google and didn't see these postings.
I have seen two variants; one with 1974-1984 with the "B" and one like your second example with no date and no "B" ; but I had not seen one with the white background like the second example. That would seem to be the hands you would expect.
95000 rubles?? that seems a shade high. 
Thanks again.


----------



## t3tan3k

skipvel said:


> Thank you t3tan3k for all the info.
> I searched on google and didn't see these postings.
> I have seen two variants; one with 1974-1984 with the "B" and one like your second example with no date and no "B" ; but I had not seen one with the white background like the second example. That would seem to be the hands you would expect.
> 95000 rubles?? that seems a shade high.
> Thanks again.


Heh yeah no comment on the asking price there. Regarding the hands one would "expect" to see on one - from what I understood from my google search - the "090" type case with amphibia hands is not unusual and the main point there may be the dial itself, not the case or hands it is found with, just because it is possible that this kind of dial never came factory assembled into any particular case or with any particular hands.. Just my (barely informed) opinion..

t3tan3k


----------



## pechamuha

skipvel said:


> Thanks schnurrp.
> So this one would also be off with no "B' or made in? Date window is obviously covered up and I believe it has a 2209 instead of the 2214.
> 
> Going for almost 500 on etsy!!!
> 
> View attachment 13566071
> View attachment 13566073


That looks like a 2te116 Russian freight locomotive.

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk


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## t3tan3k

Mrutyunjaya Gadanayak said:


> That looks like a 2te116 Russian freight locomotive.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk


It's possible as this thing commemorates Baikal-Amur Mainline (BAM) railroad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal–Amur_Mainline

personally, I think that the image on the dial looks more like 2ТE10M (see link below), but the two do look very similar and the image is very stylized so who knows.. 
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/ТЭ10М...танция_Распорядительная_(Trainpix_131442).jpg

Here is a list of machines used on BAM of which the 2TE10M is one:
http://bam.railways.ru/locomotives.html

Just my 2c

t3tan3k


----------



## pechamuha

t3tan3k said:


> It's possible as this thing commemorates Baikal-Amur Mainline (BAM) railroad
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal–Amur_Mainline
> 
> personally, I think that the image on the dial looks more like ТE10M (see link below), but the two do look very similar and the image is very stylized so who knows..
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/ТЭ10М...танция_Распорядительная_(Trainpix_131442).jpg
> 
> Here is a list of machines used on BAM of which the TE10M is one:
> http://bam.railways.ru/locomotives.html
> 
> Just my 2c
> 
> t3tan3k


Locomotive in pic has same forward leaning windshields same as 2te116, but can't be sure with that picture.

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk


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## schnurrp

skipvel said:


> Thanks schnurrp.
> So this one would also be off with no "B' or made in? Date window is obviously covered up and I believe it has a 2209 instead of the 2214.
> 
> Going for almost 500 on etsy!!!
> 
> View attachment 13566071
> View attachment 13566073


I would say that this one has a better chance since the dial with its 1984 date and lume dots and hands to match look more at home in that amphibian case but still there is no catalog evidence and if it is a Vostok factory product it should have a trademark somewhere on the dial.

The use of a date dial with a non-date movement is troubling, something I doubt Vostok would ever do in-factory.


----------



## skipvel

schnurrp said:


> I would say that this one has a better chance since the dial with its 1984 date and lume dots and hands to match look more at home in that amphibian case but still there is no catalog evidence and if it is a Vostok factory product it should have a trademark somewhere on the dial.
> 
> The use of a date dial with a non-date movement is troubling, something I doubt Vostok would ever do in-factory.


The problem is that many of the commemoratives don't make it into the catalogs that I see. I'm glad that t3tan3k reads the russian blogs to shed some light. I would guess that the etsy one originally had a date movement; the original one with the light background had vostok lumed hands; that the dial maybe did not come from the factory but was made in a small quantity in a workshop at the time; and no idea where the gold case fits in. The seldom seen examples are really rare or really fake. I'm hoping that at least the dial is kind of legit after buying it.


----------



## Kamburov

Need your advice on this, comrades!






















Reproduction dial and slava hands?


----------



## Kamburov

Double post


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Need your advice on this, comrades!
> View attachment 13573305
> 
> View attachment 13573309
> 
> View attachment 13573311
> 
> 
> Reproduction dial and slava hands?


Avoid.


----------



## dutchassasin

any idea where this case back is from? obviously some kind of vostok ww2 anniversary model but i cant seem to recall ever seeing this particular back.


----------



## Stuey63

...looking for the 'wham' and 'thank you m'am' versions to complete the set...

This is the best thread on WUS. Fascinating learning. Thanks to you experts!


----------



## Dejekt

What are your thoughts on this 3105? Seller mentioned it had been rechromed but everything else original. Anything else catch your eye?


----------



## MattBrace

Dejekt said:


> What are your thoughts on this 3105? Seller mentioned it had been rechromed but everything else original. Anything else catch your eye?


I would pass on that one, it does have the correct parts but the detail of the case has been ruined by over polishing before it was re-chromed.


----------



## schnurrp

Dejekt said:


> What are your thoughts on this 3105? Seller mentioned it had been rechromed but everything else original. Anything else catch your eye?


Too bad the crown was not included in the re-chroming. If it had and the price was attractive I might be interested...still might if price is right. All things being equal otherwise, mint to excellent condition trumps re-chroming, for me. These are not very rare so I probably would patiently look for another.


----------



## Dejekt

schnurrp said:


> Too bad the crown was not included in the re-chroming. If it had and the price was attractive I might be interested...still might if price is right. All things being equal otherwise, mint to excellent condition trumps re-chroming, for me. These are not very rare so I probably would patiently look for another.


Whats a good price on these? I know the 3133's have gotten pretty expensive


----------



## schnurrp

Dejekt said:


> Whats a good price on these? I know the 3133's have gotten pretty expensive


You should be able to find a decent one for no more than $50 with some patience. Not nearly as desirable as the 3133.


----------



## Dejekt

schnurrp said:


> You should be able to find a decent one for no more than $50 with some patience. Not nearly as desirable as the 3133.


Thanks! Any other models you suggest looking into? I don't really need the chrono function of the 3133, I just wanted something a little better made.


----------



## Luis965

Help with this one, please.


----------



## Avidfan

Luis965 said:


> Help with this one, please.


Looks OK to me, not a series 1, but a later import by Vremir with 2nd type dial (with logo) and the standard Vremir case back used with the 2416b.


----------



## steve_AU

About a year ago I bought these two Raketa's I was fascinated by the kopernik

I found one that was advertised as NOS and to my eye it looks pretty authentic. The other one however the dial seems wrong and the seconds hand tail is the wrong shape and wrong colour? They have been sitting in my draw doing nothing but the black one is so very beautiful, I don't want to wear it for fear of scratching it. The other one I originally bought to wear (so I could keep the black one mint), I don't know what I was thinking 12 months ago.

I'd love to hear your thoughts?


----------



## oldfox

It's 1994 - it were years of horrible mix - spare parts were used that were avaliable here and now. 
̶F̶o̶r̶ ̶e̶x̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶m̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶Н̶П̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶(̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶h̶i̶g̶h̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶u̶r̶a̶c̶y̶)̶ ̶-̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶I̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶g̶u̶l̶a̶r̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶.̶ - My mistake, now I see НП on barrel weel. So I think it's legit.


----------



## schnurrp

oldfox said:


> It's 1994 - it were years of horrible mix - spare parts were used that were avaliable here and now.
> ̶F̶o̶r̶ ̶e̶x̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶m̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶Н̶П̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶(̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶h̶i̶g̶h̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶u̶r̶a̶c̶y̶)̶ ̶-̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶I̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶g̶u̶l̶a̶r̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶.̶ - My mistake, now I see НП on barrel weel. So I think it's legit.


This is one of the reasons why I have limited my collecting to pieces from the soviet union.

From a 1992 catalog with "made in Russia" and all listed with 2609 НП movements. I would consider the red second hand a replacement.


----------



## schnurrp

Dejekt said:


> Thanks! Any other models you suggest looking into? I don't really need the chrono function of the 3133, I just wanted something a little better made.


This Poljot with probably the best automatic movement First Moscow ever made and a stainless steel case similar to the 3133 would be worth finding. Not too rare and usually around $50 +.









https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=NG9aQnNEdTJxdTg0QWpXeWJBM0RWcnBmYmtTbmNR


----------



## miom

Hello People!

I really need your help to get this watch. I was wondering if this POLJOT watch was fake or real. Thank you for your opinions!


----------



## Chascomm

miom said:


> I was wondering if this POLJOT watch was fake or real.


It is not fake. It is real.

And I will leave it to the expert to decide whether all the parts belong together in the one watch.


----------



## Kamburov

This is from 1996 catalogue








The one you are interested in is signed "made in ussr", so it should be from some years earlier, but it looks perfectly legit to me, including crowns, movement and case back. 
Ivan


----------



## miom

Thank you very much and thank you Ivan. Thanks for the cool 1996 catalogue picture.


----------



## Horloge17

Kamburov said:


> This is from 1996 catalogue
> View attachment 13610847
> 
> 
> The one you are interested in is signed "made in ussr", so it should be from some years earlier, but it looks perfectly legit to me, including crowns, movement and case back.
> Ivan


Ivan look at the yellow watch in the 1996 catalogue it also has USSR written on the dial... so probably as long as they had a supply of those dials you could have gotten one with USSR on the dial even after 1992.


----------



## Kamburov

Horloge17 said:


> Ivan look at the yellow watch in the 1996 catalogue it also has USSR written on the dial... so probably as long as they had a supply of those dials you could have gotten one with USSR on the dial even after 1992.


Sure, I agree, didn't notice that. The raketa export catalogue had both russia and ussr on the dials as early as 1992. I'm pretty sure all of the movements inside those watches are SU stamped. So even if assembled at a later year, a lot of it was produced at earlier time. They just couldn't sell them at the time, it's a miracle the factories survived the financial crisis. 
I don't think it matters that much anyway. Even if they started printing made in russia, I still consider these watches (first half of the 90s) soviet. 
Ivan


----------



## Third_Wheel

This red-dialed, bomber-logo'd sportivnie can't be original, right?


----------



## bpmurray

Third_Wheel said:


> This red-dialed, bomber-logo'd sportivnie can't be original, right?


Almost exactly the same as the very first post on the Franken of the Week thread!

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/franken-week-88091.html#post532740


----------



## Kamburov

Third_Wheel said:


> This red-dialed, bomber-logo'd sportivnie can't be original, right?


Bombing for sport  
Never seen anything like it (not in any catalog anyway), which doesn't mean much. 
The presence of the two logos on the dial don't make any sense. 
Ivan


----------



## 24h

eBay ID 323542570639
How does this one look? I've been trying to find a Cyrillic or English Poljot version of this, but just came across this Sekonda.


----------



## Kamburov

24h said:


> eBay ID 323542570639
> How does this one look? I've been trying to find a Cyrillic or English Poljot version of this, but just came across this Sekonda.


It looks fabulous!
I can't comment on the price, it's out of my cheap soviet universe  Comrades who operate in that price range will make a more adequate comment.
It checks all the boxes, though. The beginning of the 90s, 18j, SU, the kinda flat crystal profile, all looks good. Usually the back has a dark spot where the buzzer pin is stuck, but this looks alright too. Checks with the 1992 Poljot catalogue.
Ivan

PS: There it is


----------



## 24h

Kamburov said:


> It looks fabulous!
> I can't comment on the price, it's out of my cheap soviet universe  Comrades who operate in that price range will make a more adequate comment.
> It checks all the boxes, though. The beginning of the 90s, 18j, SU, the kinda flat crystal profile, all looks good. Usually the back has a dark spot where the buzzer pin is stuck, but this looks alright too. Checks with the 1992 Poljot catalogue.
> Ivan
> 
> PS: There it is
> View attachment 13657565


Thanks for the reply! I agree it's on the pricier side, but there is Best Offer available. I remember seeing rust or some kind of gunk on the hands in the original photos but it looks like the seller has since cleaned them. 
I will do some more searching because I prefer the domestic version rather than Sekonda (unless I can get it for a good price).


----------



## Kamburov

Seems this particular model was well exported. The only other non-franken, relatively good condition one I spotted was actually a Cardinal


----------



## 24h

Kamburov said:


> Seems this particular model was well exported. The only other non-franken, relatively good condition one I spotted was actually a Cardinal


I saw the Cardinal (163344485987 ?) but the case looks to be in very poor condition.
It's possible I could get this one and replace the case...I wonder where I can source a NOS replacement.


----------



## Kamburov

That's a tough one. It usually goes with a watch attached, and even if it's a more popular model, it will still cost good money. Not worth the hassle in my opinion. 
Guess it's either the best offer option or more waiting. You never know what a seller would accept, and if he doesn't, it's not the last watch on earth.
Usually when I buy something in a hurry, next day there are at least three better new listings 
Good luck, whatever you decide!


----------



## 24h

Kamburov said:


> That's a tough one. It usually goes with a watch attached, and even if it's a more popular model, it will still cost good money. Not worth the hassle in my opinion.
> Guess it's either the best offer option or more waiting. You never know what a seller would accept, and if he doesn't, it's not the last watch on earth.
> Usually when I buy something in a hurry, next day there are at least three better new listings
> Good luck, whatever you decide!


Good information. I think for now I'll give it some time and see what else pops up in the near future.
Just sold my gold Buran 3133 because I didn't wear it much and I'm looking for something to fill its place :-!


----------



## Kamburov

Why didn't you say so? I would never spend the money from a sold watch for anything else than other watches 
I'm totally with you on this one.


----------



## 24h

Kamburov said:


> Why didn't you say so? I would never spend the money from a sold watch for anything else than other watches
> I'm totally with you on this one.


Another one popped up: 264035961128
Hmm.....


----------



## Kamburov

24h said:


> Another one popped up: 264035961128
> Hmm.....


Some minor wear on the case, but price is very different from the previous ones. Dial/nands look excellent. No movement shot, but seller seems to be trusted. Also Ebay has good customer protection policy, and it says "watch is original". You can ask for return if it's not.
One of the crowns is not original, but if you decide to go for it I will spare you a set of new crowns from my stash.







Ivan


----------



## 24h

Kamburov said:


> Some minor wear on the case, but price is very different from the previous ones. Dial/nands look excellent. No movement shot, but seller seems to be trusted. Also Ebay has good customer protection policy, and it says "watch is original". You can ask for return if it's not.
> One of the crowns is not original, but if you decide to go for it I will spare you a set of new crowns from my stash.
> View attachment 13662523
> 
> Ivan


Wow, I would really appreciate that if I end up purchasing the watch!
The seller told me he is away for business but would send me some more pictures when back. 
:-!


----------



## 24h

Still no photos from the seller after telling me multiple times they would send some :think: :-s

Maybe I should look for a different watch in the meantime...


----------



## EndeavourDK

Real ? / Fake ? / Rare ? / Collectable ??

I've seen this one, but not sure to pull the trigger ..... I kind of like it.
420 case, 2414 movement which looks okay. 
Asking price, including shipment $50
Any thoughts please .......


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Real ? / Fake ? / Rare ? / Collectable ??
> 
> I've seen this one, but not sure to pull the trigger ..... I kind of like it.
> 420 case, 2414 movement which looks okay.
> Asking price, including shipment $50
> Any thoughts please .......


Probably a 020 case as it's got a 2414, Soviet 055 dial looks to be in nice condition, the balance has a white metal anti-shock spring which should be gold coloured on a Soviet Vostok so it might have been changed at sometime.

I also like to see a serial number on the case back of a Soviet Amphibia if there's not one on the movement (it could of course have been put together post-fall in which case almost anything is possible).

But otherwise it looks a pretty nice watch


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Avidfan; Thanks a lot ;-)

Sometimes I consult a webpage of a collector, who has 1-or-2 watches, to see if the watch/dial is in his collection (Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website)
There is a similar model given, but the watch in his collection hasn't got the CCCP markings, or rather no markings at all on the dial. Apart from that, the case, hands and movement do compare.
I do assume we talk about the same calssic SS housing when I talk about the 420 and you about the 020? Or is there a 020 which is different than the "420"? If "020" is the official name, then that's what I will call it in the future

So far (with my only few years experience) I've seen this 055 type dial only in bigger versions for ship-clocks. Since eBay doesn't seem to be flooded with these 055 CCCP dials, how "common" are these dial? Next to that I like this dial, are they already in the "collectables" category?

Below are two pictures of the watch out of the "Russianwatches"-collection;


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> @Avidfan; Thanks a lot ;-)
> 
> Sometimes I consult a webpage of a collector, who has 1-or-2 watches, to see if the watch/dial is in his collection (Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website)
> There is a similar model given, but the watch in his collection hasn't got the CCCP markings, or rather no markings at all on the dial. Apart from that, the case, hands and movement do compare.
> I do assume we talk about the same calssic SS housing when I talk about the 420 and you about the 020? Or is there a 020 which is different than the "420"? If "020" is the official name, then that's what I will call it in the future
> 
> So far (with my only few years experience) I've seen this 055 type dial only in bigger versions for ship-clocks. Since eBay doesn't seem to be flooded with these 055 CCCP dials, how "common" are these dial? Next to that I like this dial, are they already in the "collectables" category?
> 
> Below are two pictures of the watch out of the "Russianwatches"-collection;


Here's an image from an old thread showing the differences between a 020/420, it's my opinion (and only an opinion) that the 020 is for the 2409/2414 and the 420 is for the automatic movement:









As for the 055 dial, yes the Soviet version seems quite a bit scarcer that the more usually seen blue/black USSR submarine dial, the one in Michele's collection looks to be post-USSR with no country of origin at 6 o'clock.

PS. I've edited my first post regarding the three slots on the left handed crown screw as I may be wrong about this as pointed out by another comrade on the thread about your Komandirskie, as there's a one slot version and a three slot version shown on the movements in the 1990 Vostok catalogue, I'm probably collecting to my own prejudices on what is correct or not, it's just that I see the three slot version most often on watches from this era.

Hope all this makes sense


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Avidfan;

Thanks again for your answer

Perhaps it's me, but there seems to be a slight difference in the thickness of the edge of the cases ...... perhaps that's just how the photo is taken?

As for the LH screw three-slots or one-slot; is there actually any documentation about it, or are the only references from old catalogs? I once digged a bit into the Poljot 3133 movement, but there I got the impression that for example the color of the anti-shock spring depended a bit on what the factory had available. So both colors were possible in a movement of the same era :-s
At the moment I'm not such a "purist", but who knows, that day may come?

Anyway, I couldn't stand looking at it any longer. It was sitting there for everybody to press the "Buy-it-now" button and therefor I pulled the trigger ......


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> @Avidfan;
> 
> Thanks again for your answer
> 
> Perhaps it's me, but there seems to be a slight difference in the thickness of the edge of the cases ...... perhaps that's just how the photo is taken?
> 
> As for the LH screw three-slots or one-slot; is there actually any documentation about it, or are the only references from old catalogs? I once digged a bit into the Poljot 3133 movement, but there I got the impression that for example the color of the anti-shock spring depended a bit on what the factory had available. So both colors were possible in a movement of the same era :-s
> At the moment I'm not such a "purist", but who knows, that day may come?
> 
> Anyway, I couldn't stand looking at it any longer. It was sitting there for everybody to press the "Buy-it-now" button and therefor I pulled the trigger ......


No that's the difference, the 420 is slightly thicker than the 020.

As for the LH screw three slots or one slot here's some images from the 1990 catalogue so it looks like both are correct:

















But of course being LH this often gets damaged by trying to unscrew it the wrong way, it's easy to get a new LH one slot screw as this is what Vostok still use, the three slot type was dropped early post-fall and so is harder to find.

As for anti-shock springs they should be gold on a Soviet Vostok and white metal from around 1996. 

EDIT: There's also the possibility that the watch originally had an anti-magnetic shield even though there's not the Russian word for anti-magnetic on the dial, it would then match the construction of the example in Michele Cuoccio's collection, although Michele has his watch listed as a 2409, this must be an error as it has a date window, so it has to be a 2414 or a 2416, hard to know without seeing the movement but the case back has the Russian word for automatic.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Interesting information regarding the three-slot LH screws. I didn't know they were getting harder to find. A few years ago I bought a lot of 20x scrap 2209/2214 movements. I just checked and the three-slotted LH screws are interchangeable with the 2409/2414. It seems most of my 22xx movements do have the three-slotted LH screws .... so I have a few spare ;-)

I'll also check & measure how many 020 and 420 cases I actually do have, I never noticed & wasn't aware of the differences ......

All interesting and useful information, so thanks again :-!


----------



## Straight_time

Avidfan said:


> I also like to see a serial number on the case back of a Soviet Amphibia if there's not one on the movement (it could of course have been put together post-fall in which case almost anything is possible).


IMHO in no way a watch could have left the factory (officially) without a serial number stamped somewhere, the "anything goes" rule should have limits -even in troubled post-fall days, a buyer would have positively wanted the proper certificate, should he need a warranty repair. Without a numbering, how could he ever claim it?

Also, I believe/fear that both of the watches shown can be frankens or incorrect to some degree... :think:

As I recently noted in another thread, 020 case design appeared in or around 1991, with the first official publication on the 1992-93 Vostok catalog.
The OP example's dial has the Made in USSR writing on it, so by logic and experience its movement should be marked "SU-2409A"; the lack of such marking could indicate a later production era. 
In or around 1985 Vostok ceased to stamp serials on movements, placing them on casebacks. Therefore, conversely, the lack of such numbering would indicate a much older part, not compatible with a 020 case (likely even older than the dial style itself).
While swapping the (supposedly) wrong movement with a period-correct one could be a little tricky, sourcing what (I presume) would be a correct caseback is a very easy fix.

Russianwatches/Michele's transitional example is described in the notes as having an inner shield, but the dial does not state the watch as "antimagnetic", opposite to Vostok's habits. 
Moreover, it is said to being powered by a manual winding 2409 (most likely a 2409A, ndr), but the caseback clearly reads "Automatic winding". 
I am almost 100% sure that in late '80s/early '90s all automatic Komandirskies were labeled as Generalskies, so in this case it should either be the wrong dial for the movement, or the wrong caseback for the dial.

But of course I might be wrong all down the line... :roll:


----------



## Avidfan

Straight_time said:


> IMHO in no way a watch could have left the factory (officially) without a serial number stamped somewhere, the "anything goes" rule should have limits -even in troubled post-fall days, a buyer would have positively wanted the proper certificate, should he need a warranty repair. Without a numbering, how could he ever claim it?
> 
> Also, I believe/fear that both of the watches shown can be frankens or incorrect to some degree... :think:
> 
> As I recently noted in another thread, 020 case design appeared in or around 1991, with the first official publication on the 1992-93 Vostok catalog.
> The OP example's dial has the Made in USSR writing on it, so by logic and experience its movement should be marked "SU-2409A"; the lack of such marking could indicate a later production era.
> In or around 1985 Vostok ceased to stamp serials on movements, placing them on casebacks. Therefore, conversely, the lack of such numbering would indicate a much older part, not compatible with a 020 case (likely even older than the dial style itself).
> While swapping the (supposedly) wrong movement with a period-correct one could be a little tricky, sourcing what (I presume) would be a correct caseback is a very easy fix.
> 
> Russianwatches/Michele's transitional example is described in the notes as having an inner shield, but the dial does not state the watch as "antimagnetic", opposite to Vostok's habits.
> Moreover, it is said to being powered by a manual winding 2409 (most likely a 2409A, ndr), but the caseback clearly reads "Automatic winding".
> I am almost 100% sure that in late '80s/early '90s all automatic Komandirskies were labeled as Generalskies, so in this case it should either be the wrong dial for the movement, or the wrong caseback for the dial.
> 
> But of course I might be wrong all down the line... :roll:


Regarding serial numbers as I said I'd prefer to see a serial number on the case back, post-fall serial numbers continued for a while with passports filled out at the factory, then they were left blank for the owner to fill out themselves in case of warranty repair, then dropped altogether, the owner still got repairs with the unnumbered passport as they do today.

As for the dial marked USSR, I see no problem to see it along with an unmarked 2414A as many late soviet movements were, (I wouldn't expect to see the movement marked SU-2409A with this dial at all!), lack of a number on a case back of this design would indicate to me that the back is post-Soviet and not from an earlier period.

As for anti-magnetic not on the dial, yes this is unusual but I think that was so Vostok could use it with more than one type of movement and case, the combination of 020 case/2414A movement and anti-magnetic shield is a well known combination of parts from this time, (2414 Desert Shields were not marked anti-magnetic as such but still had the shield for example).

And as I said Michele has made an error in describing his watch, it's either a 2414 with the wrong case back or it's a 2416, this could have been made quite a long time after the fall (note no lume on the bezel or USSR on the dial).

Unused dials marked USSR would have been lost money for Vostok unless they used them up post-fall, but of course without papers it's impossible to know when this watch was put together for sure.

But of course I could be wrong too...


----------



## capannelle

In my opinion, the clock is correct.
I have a similar one in a 020 case with the 2414a movement and the anti-magnetic shield. Mine has a variant of the writings 'antimagnetic' and '17 jewels'.


----------



## MatthijsE

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi all,

Fairly new to collecting watches and especially russian stock. Love them to be honest so I bought one. It arrived yesterday, it looks pretty sweet, happy with the looks. Hardly any damage. But now somewhere in the back of my mind i am beginning to wonder whether it was all too good to be true. So did I buy a melon or is this a genuine piece? 
I did some research but i cant find a definite answer to whether mine is a fake/reproduction or not.

it did cost me 60 euro's; the seller advertised it as a luch 'ultra slim 2209'.
I do not have the right equipement to open the case; so not sure how the time movement looks; any idea what would make it a genuince piece if i opened it?






























Thanks for any replies.


----------



## mariomart

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



MatthijsE said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Fairly new to collecting watches and especially russian stock. Love them to be honest so I bought one. It arrived yesterday, it looks pretty sweet, happy with the looks. Hardly any damage. But now somewhere in the back of my mind i am beginning to wonder whether it was all too good to be true. So did I buy a melon or is this a genuine piece?
> I did some research but i cant find a definite answer to whether mine is a fake/reproduction or not.
> 
> it did cost me 60 euro's; the seller advertised it as a luch 'ultra slim 2209'.
> I do not have the right equipement to open the case; so not sure how the time movement looks; any idea what would make it a genuince piece if i opened it?
> 
> Thanks for any replies.


Welcome to the forum :-!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm afraid your dial is a well know reproduction dial. The original dial has engraved markings with straight edges, not round like your example. If the seller claimed it to be original and did not specify that it was a "new" or reproduction dial then you may have a case for a return and refund, unless of course you are happy with it the way it is.

By the way, the hands are also wrong.

It should look like this (taken from Dashiell's site)









Here is a forum post that may interest you https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/help-identify-fake-luch-ultra-slim-2209-a-4106218.html

I have one in my collection but it's not the best quality and has the wrong crown :-(


----------



## bpmurray

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mariomart said:


> Welcome to the forum :-!
> 
> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm afraid your dial is a well know reproduction dial. The original dial has engraved markings with straight edges, not round like your example. If the seller claimed it to be original and did not specify that it was a "new" or reproduction dial then you may have a case for a return and refund, unless of course you are happy with it the way it is.
> 
> By the way, the hands are also wrong.
> 
> It should look like this (taken from Dashiell's site)
> 
> Here is a forum post that may interest you https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/help-identify-fake-luch-ultra-slim-2209-a-4106218.html
> 
> I have one in my collection but it's not the best quality and has the wrong crown :-(


Mario has it exactly correct. Also, I am pretty sure that the black dial with the underlined "swoosh" Luch logo was only available in gold cases, not chrome.

60 Euro is pretty close to the correct cost of an original in good condition. Keep looking! And don't be afraid to ask for help before you buy.


----------



## MatthijsE

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Thank you both for the quick reply! I was afraid as much, it just looked too perfect! Ill just keep it, i like the looks and the hands are imo better than the original but who would have thought that people would put so much effort in reproducing these old russian watches!

cheers!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Referring back to Capannelles "Das U-boot" dial of the watch in the previous discussion, it is evident that my dial misses the "17-jewels" and the "anti-magnetic" inscriptions. Next to that it lacks clear aging sign such as the lume at the hour markers and the fading of the colors in center and the red-star. But, comparing both dials next to each other, all the signs, symbols, lettering and the positioning thereof are identical.
If I understood Avidfan correctly, my dial is a bit of an "odd" one in the sense of the missing "17-jewels" and "Anti-magnetic. Having said this, my dial compares pretty well with the Russianwatches/Michele's transitional example, with the difference that his dial lacks the inscription at the 6-o-clock marker.
Perhaps Capannelles dial is of a much earlier age, mine is of the late CCCP period and Russianwatches/Michele's transitional example is post-CCCP?
Is it actually known when this dial for the first time appeared on the market? And/or the production period?
If my dial is fake or a re-print then, in my opinion, they have done done a stellar job.


----------



## capannelle

EndeavourDK said:


> Referring back to Capannelles "Das U-boot" dial of the watch in the previous discussion, it is evident that my dial misses the "17-jewels" and the "anti-magnetic" inscriptions. Next to that it lacks clear aging sign such as the lume at the hour markers and the fading of the colors in center and the red-star. But, comparing both dials next to each other, all the signs, symbols, lettering and the positioning thereof are identical.
> If I understood Avidfan correctly, my dial is a bit of an "odd" one in the sense of the missing "17-jewels" and "Anti-magnetic. Having said this, my dial compares pretty well with the Russianwatches/Michele's transitional example, with the difference that his dial lacks the inscription at the 6-o-clock marker.
> Perhaps Capannelles dial is of a much earlier age, mine is of the late CCCP period and Russianwatches/Michele's transitional example is post-CCCP?
> Is it actually known when this dial for the first time appeared on the market? And/or the production period?
> If my dial is fake or a re-print then, in my opinion, they have done done a stellar job.


Your dial is authentic. It existed in both versions. They were produced at the end of the Soviet era (1990/1992).


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Capannelle; thank you very much .... I didn't have too much doubt, but one never knows ! I still have tons to learn and therefore I'm glad I joined this forum 

I also have (in my opinion) a much less exciting dial which I haven't seen a lot. It may not even be an official Vostok dial at all !?
Anyway, it's a Rodina commemorative 1945 - 2010 dial (65 years) and I was wondering whether it's an official Vostok dial and if it is, has it ever been issued and in which watch?

Diameter = 28.3mm and it fits a 24xx movement.


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I also have (in my opinion) a much less exciting dial which I haven't seen a lot. It may not even be an official Vostok dial at all !?
> Anyway, it's a Rodina commemorative 1945 - 2010 dial (65 years) and I was wondering whether it's an official Vostok dial and if it is, has it ever been issued and in which watch?
> 
> Diameter = 28.3mm and it fits a 24xx movement.


I've not seen this one before and there's talk on this thread if such a dial was ever made: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/komandirskie-lets-see-them-791366-75.html

The statue of course is 'The Motherland Calls' at Volgograd, and it does look to be of Vostok manufacture.


----------



## dutchassasin

EndeavourDK said:


> @Capannelle; thank you very much .... I didn't have too much doubt, but one never knows ! I still have tons to learn and therefore I'm glad I joined this forum
> 
> I also have (in my opinion) a much less exciting dial which I haven't seen a lot. It may not even be an official Vostok dial at all !?
> Anyway, it's a Rodina commemorative 1945 - 2010 dial (65 years) and I was wondering whether it's an official Vostok dial and if it is, has it ever been issued and in which watch?
> 
> Diameter = 28.3mm and it fits a 24xx movement.


Hmm check the 60 years , design wise very similar. I think genuine for sure


----------



## EndeavourDK

Well, if it is an original Vostok, we see here the answer on Arizone's question back in 2015. Perhaps I'll send him a PM and make him happy .... ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Dutchassasin; Yes, a very similar design ...... It's seems that the one I have is far less elaborated, in fact a very dull compared to yours. A "prototype" perhaps ??


----------



## dutchassasin

EndeavourDK said:


> @Dutchassasin; Yes, a very similar design ...... It's seems that the one I have is far less elaborated, in fact a very dull compared to yours. A "prototype" perhaps ??


Im sorry if i accidentally led you believe the watch shown is mine, but its not. Taken from Ill phill's website https://www.netgrafik.ch/russiantimes.htm
Anyone know how Phill is doing nowadays, haven't seen him in quite awhile on f10 .

In regards to the dial, i just think its an alteration of a previous design. Perhaps to cut cost the dial is simplified. 
Im not sure havent seen this one before


----------



## EndeavourDK

Funny how a dull looking dial can suddenly become far more attractive 

All jokes aside; would / could this be a prototype? To be honest I can't see this dial as being a production dial, certainly not compared to the 2005 dial. Also compared to the elaborated 1945-1995 dials, this one seems very dull and in a way unfinished, hence I never installed it on a movement and made a watch out of it.

Matters do change however if this dial is indeed a rare of even an "one-off" ........:think:


----------



## bpmurray

EndeavourDK said:


> All jokes aside; would / could this be a prototype?


I'm always extremely skeptical of anything being called a "prototype." Prototype typically means not for distribution, but for testing, either of the thing being made, or the tools doing the making.

For this, there are several reasons I would be even more skeptical. First, what is being tested? It is pad-printed, the technology for which is well established. And a test pattern for the printer would likely focus more on efficacy rather than design -- that is, a pattern deliberately designed to test the machine. And what need is there to test a dial? It's either a dial, or it is not.

Second, every prototype I have seen has looked unfinished in numerous ways. That is because it is not made from commercial-scale manufacturing equipment (the process and cost to scale to this level is enormous). Second, there is no need to make more of the thing than to complete testing. No reason to increase the number of variables. If testing the printing, why add lume dots? If testing the lume applicator, why bother with printing?

I think more likely it was just a design that did not survive on the market for long, for one reason or another, rendering it rare today.


----------



## watchseeker10

Hi I'm looking at a few Sekonda 2209s and have found a few that I like. Are they legit? 1. Grey two tone dial. Casing seems to be steel but it is marked au10 so the plate may have worn down. Movement marked SU- I've heard this could be of lesser quality than earlier ? 2. Black dial looks good but movement number and usual markings are missing- fake? 3. Grey dial which may be fake. The dial markers seem incorrect in design and the regulator looks broken, although its being sold as "serviced".


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## EndeavourDK

@BPMurray referring to "Rodina-dial"; Yes, I do agree with you regarding "Prototype". I guess I shouldn't have used the word "Prototype" (English isn't my native language). I was more thinking in the lines of, like in the car-industry, a "clay-model" (if they still do those?).

Regardless, as I understand now it is a legitimate Vostok dial which isn't, for whatever reason, produced on a large scale.
That answers my question .......

Thank you all for your help & contribution :-!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Hello all WUS experts !
I just bought this watch because of its low, really low price. It's a bit of a "gamble" whether with a TLC kiss this frog could turn into a prince or whether it will stay a frog ?? 
Looking at the sellers pictures there are a few things I'm not sure about and like to have your opinion ....

- The dial. I've been "studying" the pictures and I think there may actually be a good dial underneath the crystal. Seemingly scratches on the dial do move when looking at a picture taken from a different angle. I get the suspicion that the crystal is a very old, yellowish, worn, many times polished & "deformed" crystal. I think the crystal has deformed and therefor obscures the dial ........ (?)
- The watch case" It seems to be a 020 case which, as far as I'm aware, should be Stainless Steel. However in the pictures it just looks like that the case is an alloy? It looks like on the edges there is a copper-color shining through and some pitting has taken place. If this is indeed an Amphibian SS 020 case, perhaps the "copper-shine" is a combination of wear and the light?
- The movement: it looks in a good condition, perhaps a bit too good for a watch which is from the '80's or perhaps from earlier (?) ?
- The bezel with a lume-dot; Franken or original?
- The hands; Amphibian hands on a Komandirskie dial?

Not in the picture, but according to the seller he inner magnetic shield is present.

What is your opinion about this watch; is Legit, a Franken or a total lime ? If it is a Franken, which part(s) are still from the right period?

Curious what you think ..... !!


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Hello all WUS experts !
> I just bought this watch because of its low, really low price. It's a bit of a "gamble" whether with a TLC kiss this frog could turn into a prince or whether it will stay a frog ??
> Looking at the sellers pictures there are a few things I'm not sure about and like to have your opinion ....
> 
> - The dial. I've been "studying" the pictures and I think there may actually be a good dial underneath the crystal. Seemingly scratches on the dial do move when looking at a picture taken from a different angle. I get the suspicion that the crystal is a very old, yellowish, worn, many times polished & "deformed" crystal. I think the crystal has deformed and therefor obscures the dial ........ (?)
> - The watch case" It seems to be a 020 case which, as far as I'm aware, should be Stainless Steel. However in the pictures it just looks like that the case is an alloy? It looks like on the edges there is a copper-color shining through and some pitting has taken place. If this indeed an Amphibian SS 020 case, perhaps the "copper-shine" is a combination of wear and the light?
> - The movement: it looks in a good condition, perhaps a bit too good for a watch which is from the '80's or perhaps from earlier (?) ?
> - The bezel with a lume-dot; Franken or original?
> - The hands; Amphibian hands on a Komandirskie dial?
> 
> Not in the picture, but according to the seller he inner magnetic shield is present.
> 
> What is your opinion about this watch; is Legit, a Franken or a total lime ? If it is a Franken, which part(s) are still from the right period?
> 
> Curious what you think ..... !!


The case is a chromed brass type 92 usually found with the 2416b movement, all other parts look to be good and I would call this a Komandirskie branded Amphibia dial so the hands are OK, the red on the bezel might have been painted black, here's an image from the 1993 catalogue:

EDIT: Crystal ring might be damaged around 4/5, hard to judge!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> The case is a chromed brass type 92 usually found with the 2416b movement, all other parts look to be good and I would call this a Komandirskie branded Amphibia dial so the hands are OK, the red on the bezel might have been painted black, here's an image from the 1993 catalogue:


@Avidfan; Thanks a lot (again) for your extreme swift reply :-!

The color on the bezel is of course easy to correct. 
Interesting to read is however the term "a Komandirskie branded Amphibia" ? Has the type 92 case the same water-tightness as an Amphibia (and with a tension ring in the crystal) or is has it the watertightness of a Komandisrkie case (and has no tension ring in the crystal)?
In the catalogue the product number of this watch shows 020697; doesn't that imply that the case has to be a 020 (Stainless Steel) case and the type 92 on this watch isn't the original case?


----------



## MattBrace

EndeavourDK said:


> Hello all WUS experts !
> I just bought this watch because of its low, really low price. It's a bit of a "gamble" whether with a TLC kiss this frog could turn into a prince or whether it will stay a frog ??
> Looking at the sellers pictures there are a few things I'm not sure about and like to have your opinion ....
> 
> - The dial. I've been "studying" the pictures and I think there may actually be a good dial underneath the crystal. Seemingly scratches on the dial do move when looking at a picture taken from a different angle. I get the suspicion that the crystal is a very old, yellowish, worn, many times polished & "deformed" crystal. I think the crystal has deformed and therefor obscures the dial ........ (?)
> - The watch case" It seems to be a 020 case which, as far as I'm aware, should be Stainless Steel. However in the pictures it just looks like that the case is an alloy? It looks like on the edges there is a copper-color shining through and some pitting has taken place. If this is indeed an Amphibian SS 020 case, perhaps the "copper-shine" is a combination of wear and the light?
> - The movement: it looks in a good condition, perhaps a bit too good for a watch which is from the '80's or perhaps from earlier (?) ?
> - The bezel with a lume-dot; Franken or original?
> - The hands; Amphibian hands on a Komandirskie dial?
> 
> Not in the picture, but according to the seller he inner magnetic shield is present.
> 
> What is your opinion about this watch; is Legit, a Franken or a total lime ? If it is a Franken, which part(s) are still from the right period?
> 
> Curious what you think ..... !!


Missing it's Antimagnetic shield, movement is of course a 2409 which is correct for this type of combination.

Cheers...


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> @Avidfan; Thanks a lot (again) for your extreme swift reply :-!
> 
> The color on the bezel is of course easy to correct.
> Interesting to read is however the term "a Komandirskie branded Amphibia" ? Has the type 92 case the same water-tightness as an Amphibia (and with a tension ring in the crystal) or is has it the watertightness of a Komandisrkie case (and has no tension ring in the crystal)?
> In the catalogue the product number of this watch shows 020697; doesn't that imply that the case has to be a 020 (Stainless Steel) case and the type 92 on this watch isn't the original case?


The black on the bezel might be correct or it could even just be dirty, it's just not the same as the catalogue image.

THE dial has the Russian word for anti-magnetic so it has to be an Amphibia dial, there never has been AFAIK an anti-magnetic Komandirskie.

The 92 case is usually found with the 2416b auto movement inside, so it would actually be classed as a Generalskie, from this era a type 92 would have a crystal ring.

The case for the watch should be a stainless steel 020 as shown in the catalogue image, these have been seen before with a type 92 case and are thought to have been made post-Soviet, but of course without papers impossible to prove and of course the WR on the case back would be wrong also, would Vostok really have put out watches with the wrong WR even in the post-Soviet era?


----------



## Avidfan

Just looked it up on Meranom, the WR for a new type 92 is 20m, I don't know if these have a crystal ring or not.

Also looked in the 2001 catalogue where the WR is also stated to be 20m for a type 92, these would have had a crystal ring.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> The 92 case is usually found with the 2416b auto movement inside, so it would actually be classed as a Generalskie, from this era a type 92 would have a crystal ring.
> 
> The case for the watch should be an stainless steel 020 as shown in the catalogue image, these have been seen before with a type 92 case and are thought to have been made post-Soviet, but of course without papers impossible to prove and of course the WR on the case back would be wrong also, would Vostok really have put out watches with the wrong WR even in the post-Soviet era?


@Avidfan; As you pointed out in your previous post edit; the tension ring (4-5) position may be damaged, but it's hard to tell from the pictures. 
It could be reflection of an object too??
I think we have to wait for the watch to arrive, so a better and more precise assessment can be made. Whether it is indeed a 92 case or a 020 case. The condition of the case & crystal, the lighting and the pictures may trick us? Also, looking at the Meranom 92 case pictures, these cases seem to have a smaller crown, whereas this watch seems to have the Amphibian size crown ...... (?).

If the case has to be a 020, that would be an easy fix as I have a few spare cases laying around with a new crystal installed. It would be very nice however if the dial comes from behind the old crystal in a better condition than on the pictures 

So far, if I'm getting the drift from your answers correctly, it doesn't seem to be too far off a legit example and the points you pointed out, can be corrected. For the price (including shipment) of less than 2 packages of cigarettes ....... :think: ? Perhaps the TLC-kiss may do the watch well !?

@Mattbrace; as written, "Not in the picture, but according to the seller he inner magnetic shield is present." So, it's there .... ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> @Avidfan; As you pointed out in your previous post edit; the tension ring (4-5) position may be damaged, but it's hard to tell from the pictures.
> It could be reflection of an object too??
> I think we have to wait for the watch to arrive, so a better and more precise assessment can be made. Whether it is indeed a 92 case or a 020 case. The condition of the case & crystal, the lighting and the pictures may trick us? Also, looking at the Meranom 92 case pictures, these cases seem to have a smaller crown, whereas this watch seems to have the Amphibian size crown ...... (?).
> 
> If the case has to be a 020, that would be an easy fix as I have a few spare cases laying around with a new crystal installed. It would be very nice however if the dial comes from behind the old crystal in a better condition than on the pictures
> 
> So far, if I'm getting the drift from your answers correctly, it doesn't seem to be too far off a legit example and the points you pointed out, can be corrected. For the price (including shipment) of less than 2 packages of cigarettes ....... :think: ? Perhaps the TLC-kiss may do the watch well !?
> 
> @Mattbrace; as written, "Not in the picture, but according to the seller he inner magnetic shield is present." So, it's there .... ;-)


I'm pretty sure it's a chromed brass 92, early type 92's had the large flat-topped chromed brass komandirskie crown, the small domed crown for the type 92 case was introduced around 1999/2000, you'll know when it arrives.

Of course no problem if you've a few spare 020's laying around, it's OK apart from the case!

And of course the anti-magnetic shield is not shown but seller says it's there so all is good.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> I'm pretty sure it's a chromed brass 92, early type 92's had the large flat-topped chromed brass komandirskie crown, the small domed crown for the type 92 case was introduced around 1999/2000, you'll know when it arrives.
> 
> Of course no problem if you've a few spare 020's laying around, it's OK apart from the case!
> 
> And of course the anti-magnetic shield is not shown but seller says it's there so all is good.


Again one of those steep learning curves which makes for me these watches so extremely interesting. It must takes years to know what was when introduced or omitted and what does or doesn't belong together !

One last question which intrigues me; Assuming this watch is, as the dial suggest, from the CCCP era; why would/did they feature it in a 1993 catalogue?

As soon as I get this watch in (probably next year) I'll let you know which case it is and in which condition the dial is. I hope this watch was one of those "sleepers", sitting there looking "ugly" in the low-price category between the beaten up / none-working Vostoks. Reading your answers it seems that, apart from the case, it is pretty genuine & original. If it turns out that it was a froggy "sleeper", I'll post an "after-the-kiss" picture :-d

Thanks for your help !


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Again one of those steep learning curves which makes for me these watches so extremely interesting. It must takes years to know what was when introduced or omitted and what does or doesn't belong together !
> 
> One last question which intrigues me; Assuming this watch is, as the dial suggest, from the CCCP era; why would/did they feature it in a 1993 catalogue?
> 
> As soon as I get this watch in (probably next year) I'll let you know which case it is and in which condition the dial is. I hope this watch was one of those "sleepers", sitting there looking "ugly" in the low-price category between the beaten up / none-working Vostoks. Reading your answers it seems that, apart from the case, it is pretty genuine & original. If it turns out that it was a froggy "sleeper", I'll post an "after-the-kiss" picture :-d
> 
> Thanks for your help !


They simply kept making the same stuff, removing the CCCP from the dial in due course.

Go to this page, and see post #3 from forum member shadow_ru and link to 'Sergey Antonov's collection' of Soviet watch catalogues:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/novet-poljot-catalog-725718.html for lots of watch catalogues including Vostok.

For some reason I can't post a direct link!


----------



## Bauta

EndeavourDK said:


> Again one of those steep learning curves which makes for me these watches so extremely interesting. It must takes years to know what was when introduced or omitted and what does or doesn't belong together !
> 
> One last question which intrigues me; Assuming this watch is, as the dial suggest, from the CCCP era; why would/did they feature it in a 1993 catalogue?
> 
> As soon as I get this watch in (probably next year) I'll let you know which case it is and in which condition the dial is. I hope this watch was one of those "sleepers", sitting there looking "ugly" in the low-price category between the beaten up / none-working Vostoks. Reading your answers it seems that, apart from the case, it is pretty genuine & original. If it turns out that it was a froggy "sleeper", I'll post an "after-the-kiss" picture :-d
> 
> Thanks for your help !


Looks like there is pitting on the back of the case where the brass underneath the chrome is showing


----------



## EndeavourDK

Bauta said:


> Looks like there is pitting on the back of the case where the brass underneath the chrome is showing


Yes, thank you. Has been noted in the very first opening mail ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Latest picture of the watch prior shipping. This time it includes the anti-magnetic cover. As for the "92" or "020" housing; Looking at this picture, I still can't be conclusive about it, however being a "92" seems (gut feeling) to have a higher likelihood. Perhaps some pitting (top-left, bottom right), perhaps it's some grime of the leather, perhaps some reflection (bottom left)?? .... Hmmm, I guess we have to wait & see to be sure ..... :think:


----------



## Bauta

EndeavourDK said:


> Yes, thank you. Has been noted in the very first opening mail ;-)


Sorry, I did not read the entire first post. There seemed to be some uncertainty about this being an Amphibian or a Komandirskie case, and this kind of pitting is typical on Komandirskie cases. Also notice the color difference between the case and the stainless steel caseback.


----------



## Straight_time

EndeavourDK said:


> .... Hmmm, I guess we have to wait & see to be sure ..... :think:


Sure some dents and pitting look suspicious, but I'd find odd (or rather, I can hardly think of an explanation) if somebody might have chosen build a franken by just swapping the original and almost indistructible SS 020 case with a less though chromed one, bothering to source an estethically identical model 92.

Where's the logic in this? I mean, look at dial, hands, crown, caseback(*) and its ring: if something so bad happened that the case was not usable anymore, how can they all still appear in such a good shape for the age? Unless of course they come from several different disassembled watches, but in such case hats off to the frankenmaker for having used parts with a wear so even and consistent among them, and for having been so faithful to the catalog. 
My gut feeling (and my wish for you) is that you might have got a good one... fingers crossed. 

(*) notice the _numbered_ caseback, just as one should expect for a model appearing on the 1992-93 catalog but still bearing the Made in USSR marking ;-)


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## EndeavourDK

@Straight_time; Yes, I do fully agree ...... in a way it doesn't make sense, unless your "Unless ......". 
@Bauta had also a point with the (seemingly) color difference between case back & case.

I've done a reasonable amount of photography and know that light, (over)exposure time, angle etc can play tricks. These "tricks" are/were heavily used in "product-photography" for advertising. Of course nowadays Photoshop does (a big part) of the job.
It looks like that the seller has used some sort of light-box and some pictures are close to, if not some parts of it are, over-exposed.

Anyway, one of those situations which can keep us busy until next year ........ another part of the hobby which makes it all so exciting & interesting 

In this "case": "Time will tell" :-d :-d


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## Avidfan

Avidfan said:


> The case for the watch should be a stainless steel 020 as shown in the catalogue image, these have been seen before with a type 92 case and are thought to have been made post-Soviet, but of course without papers impossible to prove and of course the WR on the case back would be wrong also, would Vostok really have put out watches with the wrong WR even in the post-Soviet era?


I agree with the comments made by comrade Straight-time but I'll quote myself above, a type 92 with a WR of 200m?


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## Straight_time

In such an unfortunate circumstance, then it wouldn't be a genuine watch with a unique type 92(1) 200m WR case, but a franken with an Amphibia 200m WR inscribed caseback, IMHO. ;-)


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## EndeavourDK

Hello WUS Experts;

My intentions were well, I wanted to study all kinds of catalogues to gain enough know-how to not to make lime-purchases. But looking on eBay this afternoon this watch was sitting there. It was an eBay auction and there wasn't enough time to ask this forum. I've been going as fast as I could through the to me known Vostok-catalogues, but I couldn't find this watch. The eBay seller had a 100% feedback, so I throw in a last second bid with an amount I could afford to loose....... and I won the auction ......
I know all the above is a receipt to go wrong :rodekaart and it wasn't my intention to buy anything this weekend, but I was very intrigued by this watch and I just couldn't help myself :-(
So now I like to throw myself for the WUS Experts to find out if I bought a lime, a Franken or legit? And worst of all I have to ask; what bought I exactly ?? Did I go totally wrong for U$55 including postage?
It has an automatic movement.
Please let me know your verdict ....... :roll:


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## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Hello WUS Experts;
> 
> My intentions were well, I wanted to study all kinds of catalogues to gain enough know-how to not to make lime-purchases. But looking on eBay this afternoon this watch was sitting there. It was an eBay auction and there wasn't enough time to ask this forum. I've been going as fast as I could through the to me known Vostok-catalogues, but I couldn't find this watch. The eBay seller had a 100% feedback, so I throw in a last second bid with an amount I could afford to loose....... and I won the auction ......
> I know all the above is a receipt to go wrong :rodekaart and it wasn't my intention to buy anything this weekend, but I was very intrigued by this watch and I just couldn't help myself :-(
> So now I like to throw myself for the WUS Experts to find out if I bought a lime, a Franken or legit? And worst of all I have to ask; what bought I exactly ?? Did I go totally wrong for U$55 including postage?
> It has an automatic movement.
> Please let me know your verdict ....... :roll:


You've got a 091 Generalskie case WR 50m (chromed brass), with a post-Soviet Amphibia dial WR 200m, so you know what's coming next


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## Avidfan

Michele Cuoccio has a similar one in a 270 case:

http://russianwatches.altervista.org./P1030768.JPG


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> You've got a 091 Generalskie case WR 50m (chromed brass), with a post-Soviet Amphibia dial WR 200m, so you know what's coming next


Hmmm ........ I should have stuck to my plan and the study part o| :-|
In my hurry (and eagerness) I forgot to check Michele Cuoccio collection ......... again :rodekaart

Now, picking up the pieces after having admitted defeat, are there things of the U$40 to salvage? (postage was U$15)
The dial looks in a good condition and so far I haven't seen it "all-over-the-place" (?). Assuming the 2416 movement is present and works.......
Not being home right now, but I do have two Stainless Steel cases which I think are, judging internet pictures, the 270.
The hands and back-lid don't seem the be special and if they are the "standard" issue, I do have .....
Are the 091 case and the back-lid a "match" and if so where do they belong to, or are they a Franken marriage too?

Regardless what there is to salvage, I've to admit that I feel guttered and I have to draw my lessons out of this ........ :think:
Another question which starts to down on me; even if I make the watch "as-it-should", would it be a watch for me to wear? ..... each time looking at a sour remembrance of my mishap ?

I have to crawl back in my cave and think, or better: study, learn to be patience and next time do proper due diligence ...... :-s

Thanks for your help !


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## VWatchie

Avidfan said:


> You've got a 091 Generalskie case WR 50m (chromed brass), with a post-Soviet Amphibia dial WR 200m, so you know what's coming next


Not absolutely sure I follow... So a Generalskie with an Amphibian dial making it a Franken watch, no? I have several Russian watches (mostly Vostoks) and two of them are Generalskies. One of those Generalskies is one of my most treasured watches. It has the same 091 case as EndeavourDK's. Franken or not, I think EndeavourDK's Generalskie is an impressive watch and I definitely wouldn't mind wearing it! Never saw that dial before. Russian Frankens aren't that bad. After all, my impressions are that Vostok basically would use whatever parts at hand and make watches out of them (I might be wrong about that).


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## VWatchie

.


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## philippeF

is this a correct dial/case combo ?


thanks
Philippe


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> You've got a 091 Generalskie case WR 50m (chromed brass), with a post-Soviet Amphibia dial WR 200m, so you know what's coming next


Not to make any excuses for my "impulsive" buy, but educating myself I started a few days ago reading this thread from the beginning and I'm sure I read something about the Komandirskie cases with Amphibian dials. Adding to my own confusion, may I refer to page 23 of this thread? https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-23.html

Could you please enlighten me with your opinion?

Added a picture the seller provided of a scratch on the case. From the pictures, comparing the back-lid color to the housing color, it seems a chromed housing, or is it?
I also contacted the seller to see what he knows about the provenance / history / originality of the watch ....... Answer: The seller is a dealer and can't say what is, or what isn't original ....however he offers that I can cancel the deal if I wish :think:


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## Straight_time

VWatchie said:


> I have several Russian watches (mostly Vostoks) and two of them are Generalskies. One of those Generalskies is one of my most treasured watches. It has the same 091 case as EndeavourDK's.


Sorry, I didn't read your November 2017 post at the time...

I just don't get it: why you (and others, sometimes) don't simply stick to what's written on the dial, and mistakenly call it Generalskie :-s
From the 2001 Vostok catalog, page 10









where your example is listed as model 091289-74, with the last two digits identifying the bezel style (and where we also learn by the way that there were Scuba Dude dials in 521 or 091 20m WR chromed brass cases).

The same submarine/289 dial style is also to be found (page 6) with 2414A manual winding movements, but in such instance the case is model 211 with bezel 21.


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## Avidfan

VWatchie said:


> Not absolutely sure I follow... So a Generalskie with an Amphibian dial making it a Franken watch, no? I have several Russian watches (mostly Vostoks) and two of them are Generalskies. One of those Generalskies is one of my most treasured watches. It has the same 091 case as EndeavourDK's. Franken or not, I think EndeavourDK's Generalskie is an impressive watch and I definitely wouldn't mind wearing it! Never saw that dial before. Russian Frankens aren't that bad. After all, my impressions are that Vostok basically would use whatever parts at hand and make watches out of them (I might be wrong about that).


But it's not a Generalskie!

Amphibia dials can be found in 091, 92 and 52 cases, these are the three 'Generalskie' cases that usually have the auto movement, you can find all three with Scuba Dude dials for instance.

But the moment you see a dial marked 200m WR in one of these cases it is in my opinion a franken and could never have left Chistopol that way, 200m WR is for stainless steel cased Amphibians only, the 091, 921 and 521 'Generalskie' cases are all made from brass with a chrome finish (the codes are 099, 929 and 529 if they have a TiN finish), the case backs for these brass cases simply have the word 'waterproof' with no WR in metres.

EndeavourDK's watch has a nice condition 'Generalskie' case with the correct case back (and I hope a good 2416b inside), but it's not a Generalskie and neither is it an Amphibia, just some near NOS parts that can never go together.


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## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Hmmm ........ I should have stuck to my plan and the study part o| :-|
> In my hurry (and eagerness) I forgot to check Michele Cuoccio collection ......... again :rodekaart
> 
> Now, picking up the pieces after having admitted defeat, are there things of the U$40 to salvage? (postage was U$15)
> The dial looks in a good condition and so far I haven't seen it "all-over-the-place" (?). Assuming the 2416 movement is present and works.......
> Not being home right now, but I do have two Stainless Steel cases which I think are, judging internet pictures, the 270.
> The hands and back-lid don't seem the be special and if they are the "standard" issue, I do have .....
> Are the 091 case and the back-lid a "match" and if so where do they belong to, or are they a Franken marriage too?
> 
> Regardless what there is to salvage, I've to admit that I feel guttered and I have to draw my lessons out of this ........ :think:
> Another question which starts to down on me; even if I make the watch "as-it-should", would it be a watch for me to wear? ..... each time looking at a sour remembrance of my mishap ?
> 
> I have to crawl back in my cave and think, or better: study, learn to be patience and next time do proper due diligence ...... :-s
> 
> Thanks for your help !


All parts of your watch are from a Generalskie except for the dial so you can either leave 'as is' and enjoy the watch for what it is. or you can hunt down an appropriate dial and turn it into an 'acceptable' post-Soviet auto-Komandirskie or Generalskie as they were called in the Soviet era. (I'm guessing that it's post-Soviet because there's no serial number on the case back), but I've not of course seen from what era the movement comes from.

As for the 200m Amphibia dial Michele Cuoccio's example is a good place to start to try and piece together what your watch might have originally looked like.

Interestingly this dial can also be found in the Juri Levenburg book (watch #200) where it also has a 270 case.

The dial is as you say not seen 'all over the place' and would be well worth putting into the appropriate case.

Hope this helps


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## Avidfan

philippeF said:


> is this a correct dial/case combo ?
> 
> 
> thanks
> Philippe


From the cover of the 1993 catalogue, first watch on the bottom row.


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## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> Interestingly this dial can also be found in the Juri Levenburg book (watch #200) where it also has a 270 case.


I've actually seen this dial quite a few times in the 270 case (what is now the modern 100 case, but with 20mm lug width as opposed to 18mm) so I believe it lends credibility that this dial was originally manufactured with the 270 case.


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> All parts of your watch are from a Generalskie except for the dial so you can either leave 'as is' and enjoy the watch for what it is. or you can hunt down an appropriate dial and turn it into an 'acceptable' post-Soviet auto-Komandirskie or Generalskie as they were called in the Soviet era. (I'm guessing that it's post-Soviet because there's no serial number on the case back), but I've not of course seen from what era the movement comes from.
> 
> As for the 200m Amphibia dial Michele Cuoccio's example is a good place to start to try and piece together what your watch might have originally looked like.
> 
> Interestingly this dial can also be found in the Juri Levenburg book (watch #200) where it also has a 270 case.
> 
> The dial is as you say not seen 'all over the place' and would be well worth putting into the appropriate case.
> 
> Hope this helps


Thank you very much for your reply !

For me there are many lessons to be learned. A "too" impulsive and "un-educated" buy, ending up with a mixed bag of parts which later perhaps could become an "acceptable" watch. This story will "stick" to the watch each time I look at it. A mistake of my own making !!
Luckily the seller offered an escape which I thankfully took. The deal is now cancelled and I received a full refund !
To me a narrow escape and a big relieve ..... a new chance, hopefully wiser and some lessons learned.
I'm sure that, if meant to be, this dial/watch, but in the correct configuration, will cross my path again ......

Thank you all for your great help ...... I'm very glad & thankful that I joint this great and wise forum :-!

A Merry Christmas to you all ;-)


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## Kamburov

Just to add a small detail on the subject, correct me if I'm wrong. Crystal thickness is directly related to WR rating. All amfibias are SS cases with 3mm crystals. All brass cases (in my experience) have been fitted with 2mm crystals, hence no 200m WR for them, no matter what's written on the dial.
Ivan

PS: Oh, and have a pleasant holiday, guys! It's been a pleasure being here!


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## 24h

Kamburov said:


> Just to add a small detail on the subject, correct me if I'm wrong. Crystal thickness is directly related to WR rating. All amfibias are SS cases with 3mm crystals. All brass cases (in my experience) have been fitted with 2mm crystals, hence no 200m WR for them, no matter what's written on the dial.
> Ivan
> 
> PS: Oh, and have a pleasant holiday, guys! It's been a pleasure being here!


This might not even be related to conversation, but add to the crystal info...Amphibias have an extra metal tension ring for the crystal. 
On Komandirskies I guess it's just built into the case? As you can see here, the factory must use some kind of glue (or maybe just silicon?) as well as a friction fit.
As for the older models - they must be very similar.


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## Kamburov

24h said:


> This might not even be related to conversation, but add to the crystal info...Amphibias have an extra metal tension ring for the crystal.
> On Komandirskies I guess it's just built into the case? As you can see here, the factory must use some kind of glue (or maybe just silicon?) as well as a friction fit.
> As for the older models - they must be very similar.


Yes, you are right, meranom's answer was "a special, secret formula glue"  Tension rings are not reserved for steel case amfibia crystals, however. There are gold/brass colour tension rings (brass?) on brass komandirskie. I think the difference between the crystals are only the thickness and the upper profile (dome). I've never had a 3mm crystal on komandirskie and 2mm on amfibia (not counting my modding experiments). 
The 1993 submarine model discussed recently, according to the catalogue, should be a steel case (the obvious 0 in the code) and a 3mm crystal. So yes, there must be konandirskie signed dials in amfibia cases. The other way arround? I don't think so. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. The star/submarine dial has been in many different cases (one or two lume dots at 12). EndeavourDK's example is obviously a brass one, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a franken. Might be a different model. Can't be sure about anything from the 90' 
That said, I have two franken komandirskie (that I modded, so I can call them "modded" instead), and I love them and enjoy them very much. I have bought frankens, because I needed their parts and they were ridiculously cheap. 
As to authentication, there's a simple rule that comrades here (and I) follow. If it's catalogued then it's legit. Everything else is subject to arguments. There are plenty of soviet watches that are not featured in catalogues, but there are also milions of frankens. So I stick to the catalogues.
Ivan


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## Avidfan

Kamburov said:


> Just to add a small detail on the subject, correct me if I'm wrong. Crystal thickness is directly related to WR rating. All amfibias are SS cases with 3mm crystals. All brass cases (in my experience) have been fitted with 2mm crystals, hence no 200m WR for them, no matter what's written on the dial.
> Ivan


Exactly! All Amphibian cases have a 3mm thick crystal and also a separate crystal ring with a WR of 200m (or more), old Komandirskies have a 2mm thick crystal and also a separate crystal ring and I believe a WR of 50m.

Here's a page from an old Timetrend manual from 1989 which states that the WR for a Komandirskie from that time is 50m:









New Komandirskie classics with the 21,43,53,81 type cases etc. are only rated to 20m, they still have a 2mm crystal but no separate crystal ring, the ring is 'built-in' to the design of the case, if you pop one of these crystals out of the case you can find a slight residue in the case groove and on the crystal edge.

The stainless steel case on an Amphibian is also important for WR, if you look at a lot of the old brass Komandirskie cases on eBay etc. you can see many are badly eaten away on the back, often around the ridge where the locking ring screw threads are, an obvious place where water could get in.

So any dial/case back marked 200m WR fitted into a brass case must always be a franken IMHO.

Anyway I hope my ramblings make a little bit of sense and I'll use this opportunity to wish you and all my other comrades on f/10 a Happy Christmas!


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## EndeavourDK

After my last "mishap", which made a dent in my confidence, I hope this one is a better choice and that I've got it "right" this time ........ (?).


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## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> After my last "mishap", which made a dent in my confidence, I hope this one is a better choice and that I've got it "right" this time ........ (?).


Nice! Although this bezel is typical for the octagonal 470 case model, and the 420 usually goes with the dash/dot bezel (according to catalogues), I think this is a legit combination. It's not unusual for the beginning of the 90s. I see tags, are there also papers to go with it? 
Ivan


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## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> Nice! Although this bezel is typical for the octagonal 470 case model, and the 420 usually goes with the dash/dot bezel (according to catalogues), I think this is a legit combination. It's not unusual for the beginning of the 90s. I see tags, are there also papers to go with it?
> Ivan


Hello Ivan;
This time I've been trying to find/compare with other pictures on the internet and found more, I do assume the 020 case instead of the 420 case, with the same bezel. Of course, they all could have been changed (?). You are right in saying that all watches (including the Albatross) on the front-page of the 1993 catalogue have the dash-dot bezel..... (?).
As far as I'm aware there are no papers to this watch, but I guess the price was accordingly. Please correct me if I wrong, but I understood that these papers are (easily?) to fake (?), so I don't know how to value a watch with or without papers?
This dial-type seems also to come with the CCCP lettering below the minutes-markers on the dial; this dial, like some others I found, has the lettering above.
I also read that the hammer&sickle do fade away in time, but this dial seems to have withstand time well.
Here some pictures of the other Albatross watches I compared the case/bezel with;


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## watchseeker10

Hi I came across this Sekonda 23J 2209 recently but am concerned it may be a franken. The movement isn't signed in the usual way and the crown seems bent. Also although I like the dial, it's not something I've seen before and the case doesn't have a gold plate mark.

Franken?


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## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> Hello Ivan;
> This time I've been trying to find/compare with other pictures on the internet and found more, I do assume the 020 case instead of the 420 case, with the same bezel. Of course, they all could have been changed (?). You are right in saying that all watches (including the Albatross) on the front-page of the 1993 catalogue have the dash-dot bezel..... (?).
> As far as I'm aware there are no papers to this watch, but I guess the price was accordingly. Please correct me if I wrong, but I understood that these papers are (easily?) to fake (?), so I don't know how to value a watch with or without papers?
> This dial-type seems also to come with the CCCP lettering below the minutes-markers on the dial; this dial, like some others I found, has the lettering above.
> I also read that the hammer&sickle do fade away in time, but this dial seems to have withstand time well.
> Here some pictures of the other Albatross watches I compared the case/bezel with;


Yes, papers can be faked. I operate in the cheaper side of soviet watches, so I don't deal with papers too often. I was just curious in the model number and other info on the watch.
Yes, the hammer/sickle star fade away to orange/yellow. This one is in very good, near mint condition and is very well preserved. Don't worry about the CCCP sign. I have the 2414 (date window) version of this dial and it has no "made in ..." print at all (transition period), also vostol logo instead of the jewel count. These models were produced over a quite long period of time, so there were changes on the dials (print,1 or 2 lume dots at 12 etc.). I think this dial is authentic, and I think it has the original hands set to go with it. 
As for the bezel, althought pictured with dash-dot in catalogue, this one is a plausible variation, in same near mint condition as the rest of the watch. I think it's very possible it went out of the factory in this way. I may be wrong, of course, but I don't think this is franken. Also the bezel has the lume dot, which means it goes withh SS amfibia case (komandirskie bezels are without the lume dot).
To me this watch looks good. For the right price I would be tempted.
All this is said without even seing a pic of the movement. If the seller has one you can post it here. I expect no surprises, but you never know.
Ivan


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## Straight_time

EndeavourDK said:


> Please correct me if I wrong, but I understood that these papers are (easily?) to fake (?), so I don't know how to value a watch with or without papers?





Kamburov said:


> Yes, papers can be faked. I operate in the cheaper side of soviet watches, so I don't deal with papers too often. I was just curious in the model number and other info on the watch.


By my experience, I'd strongly disagree with this. Full sets are becoming my main field of interest (or, one of them... :roll , and I think I have yet to come across a _truly faked _passport.(*)

It's true, though, that too often unscrupolous sellers try to make some extra bucks(**) by assembling "frankensets": genuine passports presented together with watches which have nothing to do with them.
To avoid being scammed with these, it's necessary to look very carefully at every single detail of the document, and always compare -if applicable- with catalogs.

Most of the time the passport is simply an appealing addition to the collection, but sometimes the info it contains may be very relevant: take for instance the picture below showing a model, not present in any currently known catalog, which without this document would have likely been put in the "grey area"; thanks to this image, instead, is determined beyond any doubt and for future reference that a Komandirskie with Paratrooper dial (307) in chromed case with crown at 2 o'clock (331) is 100% legit.









(*) I don't count as "faked", for instance, the passport of that Raketa Copernicus discussed in another thread. 
A xerox copy IMHO is too naive as an attempt of counterfeiting, and usually can be spotted rather easily in a photo (and in doubt, just ask for more photos).

(**) My personal rough estimate: depending on the conditions of the watch and on its rarity/collector's interest, the presence of the original passport adds from close-to-nothing for poorly preserved and common models, to 30 or sometimes even 50% of the average market price for excellent, mint or genuine NOS examples.


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## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> Yes, papers can be faked. I operate in the cheaper side of soviet watches, so I don't deal with papers too often. I was just curious in the model number and other info on the watch.
> Yes, the hammer/sickle star fade away to orange/yellow. This one is in very good, near mint condition and is very well preserved. Don't worry about the CCCP sign. I have the 2414 (date window) version of this dial and it has no "made in ..." print at all (transition period), also vostol logo instead of the jewel count. These models were produced over a quite long period of time, so there were changes on the dials (print,1 or 2 lume dots at 12 etc.). I think this dial is authentic, and I think it has the original hands set to go with it.
> As for the bezel, althought pictured with dash-dot in catalogue, this one is a plausible variation, in same near mint condition as the rest of the watch. I think it's very possible it went out of the factory in this way. I may be wrong, of course, but I don't think this is franken. Also the bezel has the lume dot, which means it goes withh SS amfibia case (komandirskie bezels are without the lume dot).
> To me this watch looks good. For the right price I would be tempted.
> All this is said without even seing a pic of the movement. If the seller has one you can post it here. I expect no surprises, but you never know.
> Ivan


Thank you very much Ivan !
This time it seems that my "due diligence" has yielded a better result. I "studied" & compared the dial/watch, I asked the seller (which has a 100% pos.feedback) to guarantee that all was original & authentic (the answer, if required, can be used in an eBay dispute) and I couldn't find points which arouse my suspicious. Very nice to get that confirmed by the experts !! ;-)
The deal was a combined deal; two watches and I've been negotiating the price, including postage. For the Albatros I paid U$80 (including registered postage Spain-Denmark), which, considering its condition and from what I've seen what other try to charge on eBay, was an okay price for me.
Perhaps I paid a bit too much, but considering my last mishap, I rather play it save, pay a bit more and try to cover my *ss in case the watch isn't what the seller says it is.

Brings me to *Straight_time* answer; I'll take you word that a watch with the correct papers is for collectors far more worth than without. But since I'm just starting out I guess I can be "easily" duped by unscrupulous sellers. I've read warnings about that these passports could be fake/in-correct and since I'm not able to spot the fakes/in-corrects, I (for now) stay away of those (often) more expensive watches with papers.
With my current know-how and judgement, I feel reasonable confident to pay U$80 (including shipment) for a watch which I like, with a more special CCCP-dial and which I, from the provided pictures and talking to the seller, perceived as being authentic and original. Again, perhaps I paid too much? Perhaps for this price all the correct papers should have been included?? But so far I had the right impressions, all the written guarantees and for that I was willing to pay a bit more. For me, as with any watch which comes in my possession; the story surrounding the watch is just as, if not more important than the watch itself. The price paid is quickly forgotten if one enjoys the watch and if the story attached to it is "right". However, if the price would have been higher, I would have passed as it then goes beyond my comfort zone.
I hope this makes any sense ?


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## Kamburov

Merry Christmas to all!

 I wouldn't call my opinion a confirmation by a specialist, in this case it's an educated guess (with no movement pic).
Here's how it is. All documented base for comparison we have is the catalogues. They have front pictures of the watches (sometimes very bad ones) and model number codes. No case back shots and no movement shots. For this information we can rely on watches with confirmed authenticity among forum members. Vostoks, produced in the beginning of the 90s are in a grey area of their own, as sometimes watches have been assembled with whatever the factory had in stock. Dials had the ussr, then nothing, then russia. Printing was changing places, sometimes all over the place, as a result of bad quality control. So spotting a franken is sometimes not easy, and there have been many arguments in the forum about amfibia/komandirskie authenticity.
The general forum opinion on this is - if it's not as in the catalogues, it can't be deffinitively confirmed as authentic, there are plenty of easy to authenticate ones, so try to buy those. We don't want to risk advising people to buy franken watches, thinking they are authentic, do we? 
Buying on internet is always a leap of faith, and good communication with the seller is very important. Also Ebay has a very good customer protection policy (and very bad seller protection one), so you should be fairly safe.
As to the Albatros, my personal opinion on it is this - it's excellent condition, high probability of being legit, combined with seller's good reputation is an opportunity that I would be tempted to take. As for the price, I will quote my friend collector again - "the collector's joy has no price" 
So I genuinly wish you good luck with it, and do post some pics of it when you get it in the mail!
All the best
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Thank you Ivan:-!

Your explanation makes fully sense to me and I will try to stick to it. Yes there are many catalogued watches to choose from. Perhaps more risky, but I've put myself on a path to find the more scarce, not often seen AND dials which I do like (to wear). I'm very happy with the CCCP-Sports (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/rare-vostok-sports-dial-fake-authentic-4845007.html), the 1992 Barcelona Olympics (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-213.html) and of course I try to find what's going on with the Rodina 1945-2010 dial (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-213.html).
Obviously the Albatros dial isn't that rare, perhaps in good condition they are getting more scarce. I hope it is indeed authentic and will post a picture of the movement as soon as I get the watch in. As I understood from another WUS member, fake dials are known from the 1930's onward, some of which have become very collectable..... so if mine Albatros is fake, it seems that they have done a good job ......
And yes, for me too, the whole "picture" / story around the watch has to be right. For me, those "stick" to a watch.

As for the dials in the post Soviet era; there is for me lots to learn too ..... in fact, as with so many of things, I realize again that I haven't even scratched the surface of what is there to learn .... On the WRT-forum I use this line: "The more I read & learn, the more I realize how little I know. And even what I think I know, I start to doubt" ;-)

Here is a dial which is offered to me. I was after the CCCP issue, either green or blue (like Mario Martinellis 



), but somebody asked me whether I was interested in this dial ..... One, I suppose, from the grey-area ....... so far only one blur picture; is it enough to tell whether it's fake or possibly legit?


----------



## mirvotan

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi
A frendly Russian watchmaker offer me to restore with new parts a Vostok 350 swing lug he have, He'll change lugs, glass, crown, dial, hands, ...
What could be such watch price ?
Regards


----------



## EndeavourDK

Nobody any thoughts about the U-boat dial ?

Then I have another question about Albatros watches. Reading different thread on the WUS forum, as I understood the Albatros should have, like the Amphibian, a case with a 200mtr water rating.
If I understood this then correctly, can we regards the watch below as the Franken of the day ??


----------



## MattBrace

EndeavourDK said:


> Nobody any thoughts about the U-boat dial ?
> 
> Then I have another question about Albatros watches. Reading different thread on the WUS forum, as I understood the Albatros should have, like the Amphibian, a case with a 200mtr water rating.
> If I understood this then correctly, can we regards the watch below as the Franken of the day ??


The U boat crinkle dial is all ok. The Albatros dial should certainly not be in this type of case.

Cheers...


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mirvotan said:


> Hi
> A frendly Russian watchmaker offer me to restore with new parts a Vostok 350 swing lug he have, He'll change lugs, glass, crown, dial, hands, ...
> What could be such watch price ?
> Regards


The Russian watch market has many different buyers but most serious collectors tend to value authenticity above all else. When I hear an early amphibian type 350 is being restored with "new parts" I can't help but cringe a little. The value of such a "restoration" can be quite low compared to an authentic example.

Here are a few I've spotted on the current market that appear to be authentic after a quick look. This will give you an idea of the price range.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/watch-VOST...5837407:g:BbUAAOSw21Rb1F23&LH_ItemCondition=4

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vosto...492079?hash=item1eefa38d6f:g:N-IAAOSwSn1b~SCf

https://www.ebay.com/itm/vostok-wos...=item260e1f9635:g:8LoAAOSwxg5Xxpea:rk:16:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/wostok-wos...=item25ec92a8dc:g:r8AAAOSwA3dYgp55:rk:32:pf:0


----------



## mirvotan

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> The Russian watch market has many different buyers but most serious collectors tend to value authenticity above all else. When I hear an early amphibian type 350 is being restored with "new parts" I can't help but cringe a little. The value of such a "restoration" can be quite low compared to an authentic example.
> 
> Thanks for answer ! I understood you...
> I want to keep originals parts and I"ll look at vintage ones in the futur.
> here some pics that can help having price idea of the 350 I talked about.
> Thanks for help...
> Regards


----------



## bpmurray

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mirvotan said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Russian watch market has many different buyers but most serious collectors tend to value authenticity above all else. When I hear an early amphibian type 350 is being restored with "new parts" I can't help but cringe a little. The value of such a "restoration" can be quite low compared to an authentic example.
> 
> Thanks for answer ! I understood you...
> I want to keep originals parts and I"ll look at vintage ones in the futur.
> here some pics that can help having price idea of the 350 I talked about.
> Thanks for help...
> Regards
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to say it, but there is very little value here. I would expect that most sellers should be willing to give this watch away for little or no cost in connection with another purchase -- in its condition, it is worth less than the cost of shipping. What I see:
> 
> 1. The crystal is crazed -- this cannot be fixed, it must be replaced.
> 2. The hands are very badly corroded and must be replaced.
> 3. The dial is not from a type-350 but from some other 1980's Vostok, which looks like it has been sand blasted. The correct dials for 350's all have lumed numbers or indices, not applied metal ones.
> 4. The movement is also not correct for a 350, but is a more modern replacement from the 1980's. Also it looks like it will not function well at all given how far over the regulator levers have been moved. I think you would get extremely poor timekeeping for a very short time before this broke for good.
> 5. The case has no lugs, you would not be able to attach it to a strap.
> 
> Basically, to "restore" this, the only parts you could really save are the case and bezel, and you would have to purchase a better type-350 just to find all the parts you need.
> 
> I'm sympathetic to cost concerns, but I think that ultimately, this will end up costing you more because you'll have to buy a better condition watch for salvage, instead of just buying that better condition watch without this one.
> 
> Good luck!
Click to expand...


----------



## philippeF

fake second hand ? (but looks nice...)


----------



## EndeavourDK

An unwanted "beaten-up" & "rough-life" Komandirskie Amphibian or vv?. Sitting there on eBay, running towards the end of the advertising time, perhaps rightfully neglected, I couldn't help myself to negotiate the price down. I still saw some value in it and I love to get my hands on TLC "projects", especially if they turn from "beast into beauty". The 020 case seems okay and recoverable (obviously needs a new crystal), the movement seems okay and serviceable, the bezel ......Hmmm....... and now the big question is; what's behind the totally scratched glass ...... still a nice CCCP dial?? Is this indeed a correct Amphibian Komandirskie with all the right ingredients or is it a Komandirskie made into an Amphibian and therefor a total Franken?
Is the (most likely worn) bracelet brand "X" or some sort of Vostok bracelet? 
Hope to hear from the experts ..... ;-)
And have all a great new-years evening !!


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> An unwanted "beaten-up" & "rough-life" Komandirskie Amphibian or vv?. Sitting there on eBay, running towards the end of the advertising time, perhaps rightfully neglected, I couldn't help myself to negotiate the price down. I still saw some value in it and I love to get my hands on TLC "projects", especially if they turn from "beast into beauty". The 020 case seems okay and recoverable (obviously needs a new crystal), the movement seems okay and serviceable, the bezel ......Hmmm....... and now the big question is; what's behind the totally scratched glass ...... still a nice CCCP dial?? Is this indeed a correct Amphibian Komandirskie with all the right ingredients or is it a Komandirskie made into an Amphibian and therefor a total Franken?
> Is the (most likely worn) bracelet brand "X" or some sort of Vostok bracelet?
> Hope to hear from the experts ..... ;-)
> And have all a great new-years evening !!


I would call this a Komandirskie branded Amphibia dial, the Russian word for anti-magnetic on the dial means it can be only be this!

You'll not know the condition of the dial until you take it apart, and it looks like the crystal ring is missing anyway.


----------



## Avidfan

The same watch from the 1993 catalogue, this one has the 'Made in USSR' removed from the dial:


----------



## VWatchie

EndeavourDK said:


> An unwanted "beaten-up" & "rough-life" Komandirskie Amphibian or vv?. Sitting there on eBay, running towards the end of the advertising time, perhaps rightfully neglected, I couldn't help myself to negotiate the price down. I still saw some value in it and I love to get my hands on TLC "projects", especially if they turn from "beast into beauty". The 020 case seems okay and recoverable (obviously needs a new crystal), the movement seems okay and serviceable, the bezel ......Hmmm....... and now the big question is; what's behind the totally scratched glass ...... still a nice CCCP dial?? Is this indeed a correct Amphibian Komandirskie with all the right ingredients or is it a Komandirskie made into an Amphibian and therefor a total Franken?
> Is the (most likely worn) bracelet brand "X" or some sort of Vostok bracelet?
> Hope to hear from the experts ..... ;-)
> And have all a great new-years evening !!


I'm certainly no expert, but having some experience with these watches here are my opinions (guesses).

1. Legit Amphibian.

2. Agree on the case. Looks fine to me.

3. The crystal doesn't look damaged/cracked, just badly scratched and should be salvageable. I've used "MrOatMan's crystal polishing using sandpaper method" on several occasions with fantastic results.

4. The movement looks fine too. No rust and the screws look like they haven't been abused. The hair-spring looks very good!

5. The bezel, hmm... it puzzles me. It looks like it's sitting above the crystal? It should be sitting below the crystal! Hasn't it been pressed on properly? I don't get it. Anyway, you can get a brand new bezel from meranom.com, but I'd simply clean it and keep it if it's otherwise fine.

6. Yes, I'm guessing you'll find a nice CCCP dial behind that scratched crystal. Not perfect, but probably better than expected.

7. No, I don't think that's a Vostok bracelet, but I'm pretty much 100 % sure it's a Russian bracelet as I have one like it (from Russia with Cyrillic on it), but gilded.

Well, JM2C!


----------



## EndeavourDK

VWatchie said:


> I'm certainly no expert, but having some experience with these watches here are my opinions (guesses).
> 
> 1. Legit Amphibian.
> 
> 2. Agree on the case. Looks fine to me.
> 
> 3. The crystal doesn't look damaged/cracked, just badly scratched and should be salvageable. I've used "MrOatMan's crystal polishing using sandpaper method" on several occasions with fantastic results.
> 
> 4. The movement looks fine too. No rust and the screws look like they haven't been abused. The hair-spring looks very good!
> 
> 5. The bezel, hmm... it puzzles me. It looks like it's sitting above the crystal? It should be sitting below the crystal! Hasn't it been pressed on properly? I don't get it. Anyway, you can get a brand new bezel from meranom.com, but I'd simply clean it and keep it if it's otherwise fine.
> 
> 6. Yes, I'm guessing you'll find a nice CCCP dial behind that scratched crystal. Not perfect, but probably better than expected.
> 
> 7. No, I don't think that's a Vostok bracelet, but I'm pretty much 100 % sure it's a Russian bracelet as I have one like it (from Russia with Cyrillic on it), but gilded.
> 
> Well, JM2C!


Thanks ...... and yes, it's the condition of the movement and from what I can see through the badly scratched crystal which makes me think (and hope) that the dial may actually be okay :think:
Whether I bother with polishing this old & heavy scratched crystal? It's a five-minute job to get a new one, thereby also avoiding distortions in case of incorrectly polishing.
Looking at the rough life this watch has had, I most likely tear it completely apart, give it a good clean, inspection & service so that I'm sure all is as it should be b-)

The good news is that it is a legit watch and that's already a good start !  
For sure, if this watch can come back from the brink, it just gets to show how much beating these watches can take & how tough they are ........ Time will tell if I manage ;-)


----------



## schnurrp

philippeF said:


> fake second hand ? (but looks nice...)
> 
> View attachment 13756507


It's possible the seller added the airplane to an authentic second hand to make the watch more appealing (if you can believe it!). This explains about half of the watches out there for sale with red second hands.

Now as to the hour and minute hands unless they match the finish of the hour bars exactly I would be suspicious. If it's a good match I have to ask why white instead of black?

Here's the closest I could find; from '83 catalog in different color schemes:


----------



## Kamburov

philippeF said:


> fake second hand ? (but looks nice...)


Missed that post.
I'll add to comrade's schnurrp opinion. Frankly, I think the slava is franken. This type of textured dials is for a different type of case. Don't even have to search the catalogues, as it's a very popular slava design, produced in different colours. And yes, it should be in a gold-plated variant of that case, with black paint filled hands. It's a mess. 
As to the second hand, if the seller wanted to make it more interesting, he could use the slava red paint filled square second hand, which is more appropriate to these models. 
Ivan

PS: There's a random pic off internet with what I believe the right combination for this dial


----------



## sappho

Thinking of pulling the trigger on this Luch... any thoughts?


----------



## Eric M

Was looking around on ebay. Is this Slava legit? I thought the Slava Amphibias were handwinding









Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## bpmurray

Eric M said:


> Was looking around on ebay. Is this Slava legit? I thought the Slava Amphibias were handwinding


Unfortunately, it is not. Comrade Morozow has been trying to sell that for quite a while. Items to note:

1. The dial says "Made in Russia," not "Made in USSR"
2. The dial is textured, not matte as it should be. This is a dial from a Slava "Kapitan":









3. The watch should be hand-wound, not automatic.
4. There should be an inner chapter ring.
5. The hours hand is too stubby -- it should come to a truncated point rather than be squared off.
6. The caseback should not be plain, but should be stamped with 20 ATM // амфибия

Here is mine for reference (sorry for the glare):

























Keep hunting, and good luck! This is a tough one to catch.


----------



## Eric M

bpmurray said:


> Unfortunately, it is not. Comrade Morozow has been trying to sell that for quite a while. Items to note:
> 
> 1. The dial says "Made in Russia," not "Made in USSR"
> 2. The dial is textured, not matte as it should be. This is a dial from a Slava "Kapitan":
> 
> View attachment 13768349
> 
> 
> 3. The watch should be hand-wound, not automatic.
> 4. There should be an inner chapter ring.
> 5. The hours hand is too stubby -- it should come to a truncated point rather than be squared off.
> 6. The caseback should not be plain, but should be stamped with 20 ATM // амфибия
> 
> Here is mine for reference (sorry for the glare):
> 
> View attachment 13768353
> 
> 
> View attachment 13768357
> 
> 
> View attachment 13768373
> 
> 
> Keep hunting, and good luck! This is a tough one to catch.


Thanks! I thought as much, but I wanted to check.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## EndeavourDK

Hello Comrades;

I reserved this watch and I'm about to pull the trigger. I haven't seen the movement yet, but according to the seller the watch is 1000% original from his collection. Never worn, only minor scratches due to changing the strap .....
For my untrained eye this Generalskie RR looks authentic & original ..... has anybody a different opinion ? Please let me know ! ;-)


----------



## MattBrace

EndeavourDK said:


> Hello Comrades;
> 
> I reserved this watch and I'm about to pull the trigger. I haven't seen the movement yet, but according to the seller the watch is 1000% original from his collection. Never worn, only minor scratches due to changing the strap .....
> For my untrained eye this Generalskie RR looks authentic & original ..... has anybody a different opinion ? Please let me know !


All good.

Cheers...


----------



## mariomart

MattBrace said:


> All good.
> 
> Cheers...


What about Cyrillic dial with English case back? I have the same Generalskie but it has a Cyrillic case back.


----------



## MattBrace

mariomart said:


> MattBrace said:
> 
> 
> 
> All good.
> 
> Cheers...
> 
> 
> 
> What about Cyrillic dial with English case back? I have the same Generalskie but it has a Cyrillic case back.
Click to expand...

I have seen both, my NOS example has the English caseback, a German export example.

Cheers...


----------



## dutchassasin

As said the RR looks ok! My german export one also had English back. But without the stamped numbers.


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Mattbrace, Mariomart & dutchassasin (bedankt !); thank you all very much for your help & judgement !! All sounds good enough for me and I pulled the trigger 

This was the easy part; next is my wife ........ :rodekaart


----------



## VWatchie

EndeavourDK said:


> @Mattbrace, Mariomart & dutchassasin (bedankt !); thank you all very much for your help & judgement !! All sounds good enough for me and I pulled the trigger
> 
> This was the easy part; next is my wife ........ :rodekaart


Congrats! What movement does it house, and why is it called a Generalskie, or rather *what properties make a Generalskie?* I believe I have two Generalskies!?








As you can see, this has "Generalskie" printed on the dial (I guess?), and I believe it is legit (although I've never asked in the forum). It houses a 2414.








This one, on the other hand, has "Komandirskie" printed on the dial but was still identified as a "Generalskie" by our expert comrades. It houses a 2416B, and when measuring the case I discovered that it's slightly larger than a regular Komandirskie.

Blue Submarine Generalskie
Lug to lug: 47 mm
Case diameter (including crown): 43 mm (44.5 mm)
Case back lid diameter (outer rim): 38.1 mm


----------



## Kamburov

True many generalskie have been issued in this case, but also in star shaped cases, maybe others in more modern times. Many komandirskie have been issued in this case, and apparently "serjantskie" (which is on your first watch). 
Many have adopted the term "generalskie" for that case, to make it easier to understand each other, and I can't remember all the Vostok cases number codes. 
For me a "generalskie" is a watch that has been originaly produced with a dial that says "generalskie". For me your first watch is a serjantskie and your second a komandirskie.
Comrades can correct me if I'm wrong.
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

"Generalskie" does not require "generalskie" dial but does require 2416-b automatic movement.

Michele's:


----------



## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> True many generalskie have been issued in this case, but also in star shaped cases, maybe others in more modern times. Many komandirskie have been issued in this case, and apparently "serjantskie" (which is on your first watch).
> Many have adopted the term "generalskie" for that case, to make it easier to understand each other, and I can't remember all the Vostok cases number codes.
> For me a "generalskie" is a watch that has been originaly produced with a dial that says "generalskie". For me your first watch is a serjantskie and your second a komandirskie.
> Comrades can correct me if I'm wrong.
> Ivan


Interesting Question from VWatchie and interesting read. Reading previous post, I've been let to believe that my Radio Room above is a "Generalskie", and perhaps that's what the Cyrillic words says on the dial ?
If I read your answer correctly, it's not necessarily the case which determines a "Generalskie", it is what is said on the dial, which than (perhaps) could come in (several) different case models ?


----------



## MattBrace

schnurrp said:


> "Generalskie" does not require "generalskie" dial but does require 2416-b automatic movement.
> 
> Michele's:
> 
> View attachment 13771943


There are examples with 2414 manual movements.

Cheers...


----------



## MattBrace

EndeavourDK said:


> Kamburov said:
> 
> 
> 
> True many generalskie have been issued in this case, but also in star shaped cases, maybe others in more modern times. Many komandirskie have been issued in this case, and apparently "serjantskie" (which is on your first watch).
> Many have adopted the term "generalskie" for that case, to make it easier to understand each other, and I can't remember all the Vostok cases number codes.
> For me a "generalskie" is a watch that has been originaly produced with a dial that says "generalskie". For me your first watch is a serjantskie and your second a komandirskie.
> Comrades can correct me if I'm wrong.
> Ivan
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting Question from VWatchie and interesting read. Reading previous post, I've been let to believe that my Radio Room above is a "Generalskie", and perhaps that's what the Cyrillic words says on the dial ?
> If I read your answer correctly, it's not necessarily the case which determines a "Generalskie", it is what is said on the dial, which than (perhaps) could come in (several) different case models ?
Click to expand...

It's muddy water, and we all have different opinions. But yes you are correct "Generalskie" is on the dial, certainly on your Radio Room example.

Cheers...


----------



## MattBrace

Kamburov said:


> True many generalskie have been issued in this case, but also in star shaped cases, maybe others in more modern times. Many komandirskie have been issued in this case, and apparently "serjantskie" (which is on your first watch).
> Many have adopted the term "generalskie" for that case, to make it easier to understand each other, and I can't remember all the Vostok cases number codes.
> For me a "generalskie" is a watch that has been originaly produced with a dial that says "generalskie". For me your first watch is a serjantskie and your second a komandirskie.
> Comrades can correct me if I'm wrong.
> Ivan


+1

Cheers...


----------



## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> Interesting Question from VWatchie and interesting read. Reading previous post, I've been let to believe that my Radio Room above is a "Generalskie", and perhaps that's what the Cyrillic words says on the dial ?
> If I read your answer correctly, it's not necessarily the case which determines a "Generalskie", it is what is said on the dial, which than (perhaps) could come in (several) different case models ?


Yes, the Radio Room is a generalskie, and it happens to be my favourite model of all generalskie. What is common for this chrome-plated case type is that it usually (if not always) houses a 2416B automatic movement. Many komandirskie models have been produced in that combination, so it's not reserved for generalskie signed watches only. I'm also pretty sure there are generalskie models in at least one other case type - the star shaped one (2414 manual). So if I take the dial from one of those and put it in the other case, that would still make a franken generalskie watch. 
At some point I too thought of it as "generalskie" case, but technically that is not correct. 
There are komandirskie signed watches in amfibia steel cases, and I just saw a catalogued 20m WR scuba dude housed in brass case komandirskie. So it's not that simple and straight forward with russian watches. 
When we say generalskie case, we know which one we are talking about, but it doesn't mean it's a generalskie watch. 
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

Oh, yes, and comrade schnurrp has reminded me that there are some 2416B generalskie models that have no generalskie signature on the dial. Like the one he posted, this model is also in other colors. I have a simple black dial one that just says Vostok. The pretty popular "horse head" model also has no "generalskie" on it.
I guess the reason are all called generalskie is because they have been produced in the same time period, in the same hardware combination as "generalskie" signed ones, AND had no komandirskie, serjantskie or other military rank on the dials, so they were automaticly associated and accepted as generalskie. Otherwise they would have to be in some classification vacuum. I haven't seen any ctalogue or papers explicitly categorizing them as "generalskie". Or are there, I'm genuinely curious?
My other guess is this combination was used for generalskie model watches in the 80s, so they were accepted as such, and then from the 90' onward Vostok started producing other stuff in that case, and putting generalskie in other cases, so everything got messed up. 
Ivan

PS: Thank God I found this forum a year ago, I simply can't figure out these soviets by myself  Such a pain sometimes


----------



## philippeF

Kamburov said:


> Oh, yes, and comrade schnurrp has reminded me that there are some 2416B generalskie models that have no generalskie signature on the dial. Like the one he posted, this model is also in other colors. I have a simple black dial one that just says Vostok. The pretty popular "horse head" model also has no "generalskie" on it.
> I guess the reason are all called generalskie is because they have been produced in the same time period, in the same hardware combination as "generalskie" signed ones, AND had no komandirskie, serjantskie or other military rank on the dials, so they were automaticly associated and accepted as generalskie. Otherwise they would have to be in some classification vacuum. I haven't seen any ctalogue or papers explicitly categorizing them as "generalskie". Or are there, I'm genuinely curious?
> My other guess is this combination was used for generalskie model watches in the 80s, so they were accepted as such, and then from the 90' onward Vostok started producing other stuff in that case, and putting generalskie in other cases, so everything got messed up.
> Ivan
> 
> PS: Thank God I found this forum a year ago, I simply can't figure out these soviets by myself  Such a pain sometimes


here's one i bought in the same time an amphibian radioroom (papers, absolutely untouched and new), seller got the 2 watches years ago as new watches in box... who knows ?...


----------



## philippeF




----------



## schnurrp

For me, the categorizing of some of the soviet Vostok diver watches have to do with their physical make-up, not their dial type. An example would be the amphibians with ss case and 200m wp rating that were made with "komandirskie" dials.

I think the "generalskie" type Vostoks should have the chrome-plated brass case with the 2416b automatic movement. For others, all that is necessary is the name "generalskie" on the dial even if the movement is 2414.

I direct your attention to comrade Dashiel's website: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/generalskie. His description of the "generalskie" is the mostly the same as mine except for one I used to own that has a "scuba dude" dial and arrow hour hand pictured below from Eduardo's collection:


----------



## Straight_time

VWatchie said:


> Congrats! What movement does it house, and why is it called a Generalskie, or rather *what properties make a Generalskie?* I believe I have two Generalskies!?
> 
> View attachment 13771695
> 
> As you can see, this has "Generalskie" printed on the dial (I guess?), and I believe it is legit (although I've never asked in the forum). It houses a 2414.
> 
> View attachment 13771717
> 
> This one, on the other hand, has "Komandirskie" printed on the dial but was still identified as a "Generalskie" by our expert comrades. It houses a 2416B, and when measuring the case I discovered that it's slightly larger than a regular Komandirskie.
> 
> Blue Submarine Generalskie
> Lug to lug: 47 mm
> Case diameter (including crown): 43 mm (44.5 mm)
> Case back lid diameter (outer rim): 38.1 mm


I'd say you have no Generalskies at all... :think:

The blue submarine: you asked the same question one week ago, and I posted you the relevant Vostok catalog page where your watch is listed as a Komandirskie, with picture, reference number and all. Anybody is of course free to believe what they prefer, but if I were you I wouldn't ignore a factory-official classification.

The other one: it's actually a franken, but it's a rather precious one.

If you look closer at the writing on the dial, you'll notice it's completely different from the cyrillic word for "Generalskie"; it's a "Serjantskie" instead, an uncommon and sought after variation of this Komandirskie









While in the standard models the brownish dial is coupled with a gilded case, the Serjantskies were housed in the chromed one -or, at least, so were all those I've seen through the years, including my almost-NOS example; the seconds hand should be nickel-plated and the movement should be a 2414A, not a 2414 (but this was likely a typo).
Definitely a watch worth the efforts to source a correct "model 29" case. :-!


----------



## Kamburov

The Radio Room in the 1993 catalogue is actually signed "Albatros", I think. 
This catalogue is interesting, as it features 2414 generalskies








and then further down the pages there's a watch widely accepted as generalskie by physical make-up








and it's described simply as Vostok wristwatch.

I hear what comrade schnurrp is saying, but then that means
1. There are "generalskie type" komandirskie
2. There are "komandirskie type" generalskie

So "generalskie type" and "generalskie" are two different terms, that sometimes overlap, but sometimes not. Dashiell does have a star shaped case generalskie in the collection. 
Does that make sense?
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

In a earlier attempt for me to make some sense out of the incredible interesting confusion, I started (for my own reference base) copying pictures. I'm sorry to say that I do not know for 100 percent anymore from whom I copied these pictures (watches of the USSR?) and do hope the owner doesn't mind me posting them in this thread again !?

As I understood, all these pictures should represent "Generalskies", lacking is however the information which movements they have.
Also the, as what is under current discussion, perhaps different case shapes ...... !?

Awesome interesting |>


----------



## Kamburov

The owner is a respected member here (Dashiell aka "mroatman"), and we were just talking about his site "watches of the USSR". These pics have been posted here before. A few times 
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> The owner is a respected member here (Dashiell aka "mroatman"), and we were just talking about his site "watches of the USSR". These pics have been posted here before. A few times
> Ivan


I'm sorry:-(


----------



## MattBrace

The picture with 4 watches in a row is from Dashiell's site. The other pictures are not from his collection. 

Cheers...


----------



## bpmurray

EndeavourDK said:


> I'm sorry:-(


I don't think he was calling you out -- Dashiell's website is very frequently referenced here, with photos from his site posted all the time. It is a fantastic resource, and at this point is basically the "reference standard" for almost any USSR-era watch.


----------



## RobNJ

Maybe it's just me, but it feels like we are intermixing discussions of Soviet-era and post-Soviet Generalskies. Dashiell's "Watches of the USSR" criteria, referenced also by schnurrp, are Soviet-era in their focus (although there is that one 539-cased model on the website). 

Meanwhile, in the post-Soviet era, I don't think that anyone would argue against there being a bevy of star-shaped (531/539), 2414-based Generalskies labeled as such both on the dial and in catalogs (see the page of Generalskies 3-4 pages into the Vostok 2001 catalog, in addition to those cited above).

Moreso even than other Soviet/Russian designations, it seems the meaning of Generalskie changes radically.


----------



## MattBrace

The Star shaped Generalskie. Which was also available as a Soviet era watch just! 

As with all things Vostok, it's confused and difficult to follow. 

Cheers...


----------



## EndeavourDK

Interesting remark from comrade RobNJ ....... :think:

Looking closely at the "Generalskie" pictures I just posted, am I right in my observation the all the (Soviet) Generalskies, apart from the discussion whether automatic or a hand-wound movement, do / must have a date-window; so either a 2416b or a 2414a (if hand-wound is a "Soviet" option) ?


----------



## MattBrace

EndeavourDK said:


> Interesting remark from comrade RobNJ .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking closely at the "Generalskie" pictures I just posted, am I right in my observation the all the (Soviet) Generalskies, apart from the discussion whether automatic or a hand-wound movement, do / must have a date-window; so either a 2416b or a 2414a (if hand-wound is a "Soviet" option) ?


Yes all have a date complication. The ones you have pictured are all automatic movements 2416b

Cheers...


----------



## EndeavourDK

MattBrace said:


> Yes all have a date complication. The ones you have pictured are all automatic movements 2416b
> 
> Cheers...


From what I've learned & understood; the 2416b comes in a "21-jewel" version and a "31-jewel" version, different being the "steel" or "synthetic" jeweling of the reversing wheels.
Which 2416b should be in the Soviet era Generalskies? And / or which 2416b should I expect to find in my newly acquired Radio Room (above) ?
Is there a certain date / period in which the 21-jewels were phased out and the 31-jewels 2416b made his debut?


----------



## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> I'm sorry:-(


Shouldn't be, I was looking for these pics myself  And Dashiell is indeed one of the coolest persons around.
In the beginning of the 70s Vostok replaces 22XX with the newly designed 24XX (originally developed by Petrodvorec?). First in use supposedly are 2415, 2416, 2416A, 2416Б - 21 jewels, and by the end of the 80s all autos were the modernized 2416Б 31 jewels. So the transition must have happened gradually somewhere mid 80s. 
I can't guess which one is in your watch. Well, maybe if it's an authentic NOS with tags and papers. As you said, the difference is only the reversing wheels, and you can never be sure which wheels are in a movement. Things get replaced. The jewel count was mostly a marketing move, so it doesn't really matter that much. 
I wouldn't start opening reversing wheels to check it out anyway 
Ivan

PS: edited movements, these russians give me a headache sometimes. 2427, 2427A - another 21 jewels vostok auto


----------



## MattBrace

EndeavourDK said:


> MattBrace said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes all have a date complication. The ones you have pictured are all automatic movements 2416b
> 
> Cheers...
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've learned & understood; the 2416b comes in a "21-jewel" version and a "31-jewel" version, different being the "steel" or "synthetic" jeweling of the reversing wheels.
> Which 2416b should be in the Soviet era Generalskies? And / or which 2416b should I expect to find in my newly acquired Radio Room (above) ?
> Is there a certain date / period in which the 21-jewels were phased out and the 31-jewels 2416b made his debut?
Click to expand...

Your watch will have the 2416b 31j movement. The 21j example is a 2416.

Cheers...


----------



## Kamburov

MattBrace said:


> The 21j example is a 2416.


Apparently can also be a 2416Б  As I said, they give me a headache. I'm sure I've seen 21j generalskie papers that say 2416Б, but also...
In the same 1993 catalogue, where the 2416Б generalskie is listed as 21 jewels on the dial, the next watch is this one








So it's not a mistake. In 1993 the 2416Б is listed as 21 jewels movement.
I didn't expect to say this, but, guys, let's just ignore the 2416Б jewel count. The russians didn't care about the 10 reversing wheel jewels, so why should we. 
I officially start ignoring them 
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Thank you all :-! All magnificence and truly awesome; not only the amazing information given but also the extreme colorful history & development of these watches !
I'm sincerely enjoy learning and reading about this ! 

I know I digress from topic with this perhaps incredible stupid questions, but I like to ask this since one never knows how "funny" (no insult intended) things can become; I do assume that these watch-names "Generalskie", "Oficerskie", "Komandirskie" & "Serjantskie" were in Soviet-times just that; watch-names, with no relation to whom were wearing them, civil or by any rank in the military?

And alike with many of the theme-watches (Paratroopers / tank / Submarines etc)? For example, would a "KGB-watch" exclusively be for KGB-personel or would normal civilians, whoever felt like it, go around with a "KGB watch" ? ........ assuming that a "KGB-watch", taken as a random example, was around in the Soviet times and not later introduced as a novelty?

I just try to get a feel how things were in the Soviet times and how much "value" to give to the watch names & themes ........?

Thanks a lot ! ;-)


----------



## VWatchie

EndeavourDK said:


> Thank you all :-! All magnificence and truly awesome; not only the amazing information given but also the extreme colorful history & development of these watches !
> I'm sincerely enjoy learning and reading about this !
> 
> I know I digress from topic with this perhaps incredible stupid questions, but I like to ask this since one never knows how "funny" (no insult intended) things can become; I do assume that these watch-names "Generalskie", "Oficerskie", "Komandirskie" & "Serjantskie" were in Soviet-times just that; watch-names, with no relation to whom were wearing them, civil or by any rank in the military?
> 
> And alike with many of the theme-watches (Paratroopers / tank / Submarines etc)? For example, would a "KGB-watch" exclusively be for KGB-personel or would normal civilians, whoever felt like it, go around with a "KGB watch" ? ........ assuming that a "KGB-watch", taken as a random example, was around in the Soviet times and not later introduced as a novelty?
> 
> I just try to get a feel how things were in the Soviet times and how much "value" to give to the watch names & themes ........?
> 
> Thanks a lot ! ;-)


Glad you asked as I'm curious about this too! Hope someone has some info to share!?


----------



## VWatchie

Straight_time said:


> I'd say you have no Generalskies at all... :think:
> 
> *The blue submarine: you asked the same question one week ago*, and I posted you the relevant Vostok catalog page where your watch is listed as a Komandirskie, with picture, reference number and all. Anybody is of course free to believe what they prefer, but if I were you I wouldn't ignore a factory-official classification.
> 
> The other one: it's actually a franken, but it's a rather precious one.
> 
> If you look closer at the writing on the dial, you'll notice it's completely different from the cyrillic word for "Generalskie"; it's a "Serjantskie" instead, an uncommon and sought after variation of this Komandirskie
> 
> View attachment 13772455
> 
> 
> While in the standard models the brownish dial is coupled with a gilded case, the Serjantskies were housed in the chromed one -or, at least, so were all those I've seen through the years, *including my almost-NOS example*; the seconds hand should be nickel-plated and the movement should be a 2414A, not a 2414 (but this was likely a typo).
> Definitely a watch worth the efforts to source a correct "model 29" case. :-!


That's funny! I have absolutely no recollection of having asked about my "blue submarine Generalskie" _a week ago_, much less any recollection of a reply that I'd be _very interested_ to read! Can you provide a link, please? I did ask about this watch on the forum, but that was in November 2017. It was then described as "an automatic Komandirskie" (by Neruda) in a case "often referred to as the Generalskie case" (by mariomart). Having read the many posts about what constitutes a Generalskie, I guess Neruda's and mariomarts's remarks is a good summary.

The other watch was sold as a "SARGENDIRSKIE". I guess I misinterpreted the printing on the dial. I simply bought it as I felt it looked good. I really appreciate the info you provided about it, thanks! I haven't serviced it yet, so I'm not sure whether it houses a 2414 or 2414A. Not perfectly sure what the difference between these 2414 movements is, but I believe the 2414A has slanted bridges? I'd be very, _very_ interested to see your "almost-NOS example"! Can you provide a picture or a link, please? I'd sure like to find the right case for it, and I believe/hope I might already have a nickel-plated seconds hand somewhere.


----------



## Straight_time

VWatchie said:


> That's funny! I have absolutely no recollection of having asked about my "blue submarine Generalskie" _a week ago_, much less any recollection of a reply that I'd be _very interested_ to read! Can you provide a link, please? I did ask about this watch on the forum, but that was in November 2017. It was then described as "an automatic Komandirskie" (by Neruda) in a case "often referred to as the Generalskie case" (by mariomart). Having read the many posts about what constitutes a Generalskie, I guess Neruda's and mariomarts's remarks is a good summary.
> 
> The other watch was sold as a "SARGENDIRSKIE". I guess I misinterpreted the printing on the dial. I simply bought it as I felt it looked good. I really appreciate the info you provided about it, thanks! I haven't serviced it yet, so I'm not sure whether it houses a 2414 or 2414A. Not perfectly sure what the difference between these 2414 movements is, but I believe the 2414A has slanted bridges? I'd be very, _very_ interested to see your "almost-NOS example"! Can you provide a picture or a link, please? I'd sure like to find the right case for it, and I believe/hope I might already have a nickel-plated seconds hand somewhere.


Yeah, my mistake: TWO weeks ago you wrote this post, which linked back to Nov.2017, and to which I replied ONE week ago... I guess you missed it, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I thought I had already posted some pics of my Serjantskie somewhere, but may I be damned if I can find them... these are the only ones I have in my files now

























but browsing f/10 you should find more pics and a few threads dedicated to this model.

To the best of my knowledge the case style 29x only appears on the 1990/91 Vostok and on the 1990 Tento catalogs in a handful of models: 3 or 4 civilians and a couple of Komandirskies; oddly enough, the published Koms are marked Zakaz (altough if I am not mistaken also the Sdelano variations did exist) while the Serjantskie, which by the way doesn't appear on any currently known catalog, seems to have been produced only with Sdelano. It's a very clean and stylish design IMHO, with unfortunately a big problem (other than being not very common): it's rather delicate and easily scratched, so finding a good donor might take some time -but as said, it would definitely be worth it. ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Dear Comrades;

Has anybody any information about this Amphibian Komandirskie? Franken / legit ?

Hope to hear ....... ;-)


----------



## MattBrace

EndeavourDK said:


> Dear Comrades;
> 
> Has anybody any information about this Amphibian Komandirskie? Franken / legit ?
> 
> Hope to hear .......


A reproduction dial, I would pass on that.

Cheers...


----------



## EndeavourDK

MattBrace said:


> A reproduction dial, I would pass on that.
> 
> Cheers...


Very interesting ! To be honest I didn't expect that and I'm very thankful for your answer !!
For my own education; What is the "give-away"? Did you know it was a reproduction or perhaps is it the "poor / shallow" printing, the lume ??
Hope to hear .......


----------



## mariomart

EndeavourDK said:


> Very interesting ! To be honest I didn't expect that and I'm very thankful for your answer !!
> For my own education; What is the "give-away"? Did you know it was a reproduction or perhaps is it the "poor / shallow" printing, the lume ??
> Hope to hear .......


A well made pad printed professional dial tends to have fine even lines and crisp graphics with no smudging, whereas this dial appears to have "jaggies" and typical inkjet printing characteristics. Also missing the official Vostok "B" company trademark (although there have been some promotional/company dials without the trademark). Overall it's quite a messy dial.


----------



## EndeavourDK

mariomart said:


> A well made pad printed professional dial tends to have fine even lines and crisp graphics with no smudging, whereas this dial appears to have "jaggies" and typical inkjet printing characteristics. Also missing the official Vostok "B" company trademark (although there have been some promotional/company dials without the trademark). Overall it's quite a messy dial.


In a way I noticed that the dial wasn't crisp and without the "B", but I think I went in a kind of denial seeing the letters 3AKA3 MO CCCP, also thinking this is perhaps "very special", perhaps a special issue for a certain Sub. A "one-off" chance to acquire. And perhaps the eagerness feeds the denial? 
Well, I guess the dial is "very special". Remarkably, the seller has a 100% (452) feedback and presents it, among other Russian watches, as "Rare" and "Collectable"........
I'm very glad I asked and hopefully I'll wake up to my own "denial" and learn from my own "faults" and "weaknesses". Luckily this was was a "dry-run" learning experience.
Thank you both for you help :-!


----------



## Straight_time

EndeavourDK said:


> In a way I noticed that the dial wasn't crisp and without the "B", but I think I went in a kind of denial seeing the letters 3AKA3 MO CCCP


There are indeed a few counterfeits around, but compare the photos below and you'll realize that on the genuine dial it's not "3AKA3" actually, but rather "3AKA3".
Also notice the different font: the single letters are much "wider" (better seen on the whole "3AKA3" and on the "P").
Don't worry, once you educate your eye it will be a joke. ;-)


----------



## dutchassasin

EndeavourDK said:


> Dear Comrades;
> 
> Has anybody any information about this Amphibian Komandirskie? Franken / legit ?
> 
> Hope to hear ....... ;-)


Ive got a genuine version of that dial


----------



## EndeavourDK

Straight_time said:


> There are indeed a few counterfeits around, but compare the photos below and you'll realize that on the genuine dial it's not "3AKA3" actually, but rather "3AKA3".
> Also notice the different font: the single letters are much "wider" (better seen on the whole "3AKA3" and on the "P").
> Don't worry, once you educate your eye it will be a joke. ;-)


I've been checking with my other 3AKA3 MO CCCP and you are spot on :-! Luckily my others are "real".
Checking the font of my other CCCP's, the CAE^ AHO B CCCP, I noticed that the "P" was more the normal "long-legged" P :think:
Is it just the 3AKA3 dials who have this "special" font?

As example to show I took this Submarine dial;


----------



## VWatchie

mariomart said:


> A well made pad printed professional dial tends to have fine even lines and crisp graphics with no smudging, whereas this dial appears to have "jaggies" and typical inkjet printing characteristics. Also missing the official Vostok "B" company trademark (*although there have been some promotional/company dials without the trademark*). Overall it's quite a messy dial.


Hmm... this gets me a bit worried. Aren't there some/several examples of legit non-promotional/company Vostok dials without the trademark? BTW, I suppose the trademark can be as subtle as the little B under 6 o'clock as in this picture?:








However, this next dial lacks the trademark. Is that a strong indication that it is a reproduction?


----------



## mariomart

VWatchie said:


> Hmm... this gets me a bit worried. Aren't there some/several examples of legit non-promotional/company Vostok dials without the trademark? BTW, I suppose the trademark can be as subtle as the little B under 6 o'clock as in this picture?:
> 
> However, this next dial lacks the trademark. Is that a strong indication that it is a reproduction?


The other exceptions I should have mentioned where the "B" is not present is when a Trademarked alternative symbol or word is used in place of the "B", such as "Vostok", "Wostok", "Boctok", "Amphibia", "Komandirskie", "Generalskie", "Admiralskie", "Sergentskie", and there are probably a few more, however it is also the official font used on the dial which is also part of their recognized trademark.


----------



## VWatchie

dutchassasin said:


> Ive got a genuine version of that dial
> 
> View attachment 13777433


Just out of curiosity; how do you know it's legit? If I'd seen this watch on the bay I would have suspected it to be a "Franken" (NOT saying it is!). It lacks the Vostok trademark, it has no "cccp-stuff", and the hands look sort of funny. Don't know if it is a reflection in the picture, but the tip of the minute hand looks strange/damaged, and the lume on hour hand looks like it's been painted on the dial side of the hand.

Anyway, as I said, I'm not questioning it to be genuine, I'm just being curious.


----------



## VWatchie

Straight_time said:


> Yeah, my mistake: TWO weeks ago you wrote this post, which linked back to Nov.2017, and to which I replied ONE week ago... I guess you missed it, sorry for the misunderstanding.
> 
> I thought I had already posted some pics of my Serjantskie somewhere, but may I be damned if I can find them... these are the only ones I have in my files now
> 
> View attachment 13774819
> 
> 
> View attachment 13774821
> 
> 
> View attachment 13774823
> 
> 
> but browsing f/10 you should find more pics and a few threads dedicated to this model.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge the case style 29x only appears on the 1990/91 Vostok and on the 1990 Tento catalogs in a handful of models: 3 or 4 civilians and a couple of Komandirskies; oddly enough, the published Koms are marked Zakaz (altough if I am not mistaken also the Sdelano variations did exist) while the Serjantskie, which by the way doesn't appear on any currently known catalog, seems to have been produced only with Sdelano. It's a very clean and stylish design IMHO, with unfortunately a big problem (other than being not very common): it's rather delicate and easily scratched, so finding a good donor might take some time -but as said, it would definitely be worth it. ;-)


OK, now I understand why I had no recollection of "asking about" my blue submarine "Generalskie". My post wasn't about asking a question, but a comment to EndavourDK's purchase, comparing it to my blue submarine Generalskie (which isn't a Generalskie, but an automatic Komandirskie, or... :-d) Anyway, I appreciate your replies! :-!

Now, are you sure my Serjantskie is a Franken? I'm thinking that if no Serjantskies are in any catalogues, as you say, how can we be sure it's a Franken? For reference, here it is again...


----------



## mariomart

VWatchie said:


> Just out of curiosity; how do you know it's legit? If I'd seen this watch on the bay I would have suspected it to be a "Franken" (NOT saying it is!). It lacks the Vostok trademark, it has no "cccp-stuff", and the hands look sort of funny. Don't know if it is a reflection in the picture, but the tip of the minute hand looks strange/damaged, and the lume on hour hand looks like it's been painted on the dial side of the hand.
> 
> Anyway, as I said, I'm not questioning it to be genuine, I'm just being curious.


The end of the minute hand is actually bent on genuine original hands, and the older Soviet Union hands have the elongated lume window (modern ones have a shorter lume window), and it's possible that all hands have been relumed at some point in time.

There was a period of time, mostly between 1991 and 1995, immediately after the fall of the Soviet Union when dials were not marked with the country of manufacture, and when old stock was still being used. That's why it's entirely possible to see watches with documents or "passports" showing date of manufacture being after the fall but the watch still either having a USSR/CCCP dial and/or movement or no mark at all.

This whole period after the fall is very confusing for most collectors, me included, as it throws up many hybrid watches, but a good look at the overall quality and some understanding of the history before and after the fall helps put the pieces into some sort of order to make a semi educated guess at what is or isn't possibly genuine. Clear as mud :-!


----------



## Straight_time

VWatchie said:


> Now, are you sure my Serjantskie is a Franken? I'm thinking that if no Serjantskies are in any catalogues, as you say, how can we be sure it's a Franken?


I see what you mean, but let me tell you that it's a very, very slippery approach to the matter...

Please follow the reasoning: ok, you use the lack of a catalog publication to say that nobody can really affirm that it's a franken, and that's fine.

But what if somebody else turned that argument against you, and asked you to prove beyond any doubt that the dial isn't's a complete fantasy or fake? It doesn't even have the "B" logo, how do you know it's a genuine Vostok? :-d
Catalogs lack for you too, so you'd have to examine it in depth -markings, fonts, indexes and so on- and most of all rely to your _experience_ to give an acceptable answer, right?

Well, I simply applied the same criteria... 
Your Serjantskie seems to be the only example in a 341 case, while all the others known to collectors (not many, we're talking probably of a few dozens of watches) come in the 291; not a conclusive proof _per se_ maybe, but add that an identical Komandirskie-marked dial is to be found only in the same 291 style, and by Occam's razor -while we all hope for the first Serjantskie with matching papers to surface, to confirm or refute the theory- you should agree that this is the only possible conclusion. ;-)


----------



## MattBrace

Straight_time said:


> VWatchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, are you sure my Serjantskie is a Franken? I'm thinking that if no Serjantskies are in any catalogues, as you say, how can we be sure it's a Franken?
> 
> 
> 
> I see what you mean, but let me tell you that it's a very, very slippery approach to the matter...
> 
> Please follow the reasoning: ok, you use the lack of a catalog publication to say that nobody can really affirm that it's a franken, and that's fine.
> 
> But what if somebody else turned that argument against you, and asked you to prove beyond any doubt that the dial isn't's a complete fantasy or fake? It doesn't even have the "B" logo, how do you know it's a genuine Vostok?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catalogs lack for you too, so you'd have to examine it in depth -markings, fonts, indexes and so on- and most of all rely to your _experience_ to give an acceptable answer, right?
> 
> Well, I simply applied the same criteria...
> Your Serjantskie seems to be the only example in a 341 case, while all the others known to collectors (not many, we're talking probably of a few dozens of watches) come in the 291; not a conclusive proof _per se_ maybe, but add that an identical Komandirskie-marked dial is to be found only in the same 291 style, and by Occam's razor -while we all hope for the first Serjantskie with matching papers to surface, to confirm or refute the theory- you should agree that this is the only possible conclusion.
Click to expand...

+1 Add to that the non original seconds hand.

Cheers...


----------



## stevoe

EndeavourDK said:


> ...Awesome interesting |>


Some more Generalskie, Admiralskie, 3ivilskie... ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

stevoe said:


> Some more Generalskie, Admiralskie, 3ivilskie... ;-)


Nein !! o| You shouldn't have done that !! 
There are some beauties in between ...... b-) does it ever stop and how to convince my wife that I really "need" them :-s. :-!

BTW; do I see THE "200mtr" ?


----------



## stevoe

EndeavourDK said:


> ...BTW; do I see THE "200mtr" ?


Yes and... sorry! ;-)

Best wishes
Stephan


----------



## Straight_time

VWatchie said:


> Just out of curiosity; how do you know it's legit?



















'nuff said... b-)


----------



## dutchassasin

What is odd is that they chose this obscure dial to replicate. Not many of them have surfaced. 
But then again check this out . https://www.etsy.com/nl/listing/661355621 Nice try mr. faker


----------



## Eric M

So, I realize this watch is a franken. My question, is what watches did they pull parts from? Are the lugs between the swing and wire lugs the same? Then, the seller would have just swapped the wire lugs onto a more common swing lug watch? Or is this even more of a franken than I think it is?









Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


----------



## dutchassasin

Eric the dial is a replica. the swing lugs and wire lugs have the same attachment diameter.
As far as i am aware only the 300m used wire lugs. but i could be wrong


----------



## Eric M

dutchassasin said:


> Eric the dial is a replica. the swing lugs and wire lugs have the same attachement diameter


Perfect. That answers my question. Like I said, I knew it was wrong, but wanted to know exactly how wrong it was.

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## dutchassasin

Eric M said:


> Perfect. That answers my question. Like I said, I knew it was wrong, but wanted to know exactly how wrong it was.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


No worries, ask away! You can see that the dial is not genuine due to the lume being too sharp and clean. Old lume shows its age and it was applied quite sloppy back in the day


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## Eric M

dutchassasin said:


> No worries, ask away! You can see that the dial is not genuine due to the lume being the sharp and clean. Old lume shows its age and it was applied quite sloppy back in the day


On that note, I was shocked when I bought my first older tonneau how primitive it feels compared to the newer ones. It's not a bad thing, but I was definitely surprised. Definitely adds to the charm.

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## Eric M

Actually, while I'm thinking about it, does anyone know what this bracelet would have originally been sold with? It came on an Amphibia, but I've never seen one like it. It's not on a Russian watch in the photo, I tossed it on a 70s chrono for fun.









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## Kamburov

Eric M said:


> Actually, while I'm thinking about it, does anyone know what this bracelet would have originally been sold with? It came on an Amphibia, but I've never seen one like it. It's not on a Russian watch in the photo, I tossed it on a 70s chrono for fun.


Had (still have?) a couple of those. My money is on Raketa, as one of them had "Leningrad" together with the city crest on the lock. 
Ivan

PS: Just as I thought. There it is on a quartz Raketa


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## JimmyOlber

Hello!

Would appreciate some help, all looks good here? Am weary of the green discoloration present.. most noticeably around the crown wheel screw, bad news?


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## EndeavourDK

JimmyOlber said:


> Hello!
> 
> Would appreciate some help, all looks good here? Am weary of the green discoloration present.. most noticeably around the crown wheel screw, bad news?


I haven't seen or worked on this particular movement, so I tend to judge a movement on other signs. To me the movement looks in a good shape, hardly, or not much tempered with. Therefor I do assume that the green stuff around the crown wheel is dried-in grease.
How does the movement perform on a timegrapher (amplitude?) and when was its last service ? If the service has been a long time ago, a thorough clean and new oil/grease may make it sparkling & as new again......... ;-)


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## Eric M

I feel like I ask a lot of questions on this thread (lot to learn I guess), but I saw something odd on fleabay. A pair of Poljot divers, but one of them has a day and date window. Most I've seen just have the date window. Is this a known configuration? Or has someone been clever with parts?









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## Eric M

Eric M said:


> I feel like I ask a lot of questions on this thread (lot to learn I guess), but I saw something odd on fleabay. A pair of Poljot divers, but one of them has a day and date window. Most I've seen just have the date window. Is this a known configuration? Or has someone been clever with parts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


Ignore my question. Just noticed the dial on the second has markers that look like they came off a square cased watch. Silly thing to miss.

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## EndeavourDK

Going back to page 214 in which we discussed the Anti-magnetic Submarine watch with the pitted 020 (?) or 92 (?) housing. Well the watch has arrived and and as far as I can see the winner is Avidfan :-!
It's indeed an alloy housing, it has the exact identical dimensions as the 020 Stainless steel housing (see pictures). It has a Amphibian-crystal with a tension-ring. The bezel dots & stripes are all black. There was a scratch on the dial at the 4-5 marker, some paint had curled up. The Amphibian hands are (repainted / retouched) black.

Reading the information given on page 214 and 215, it leaves me still a bit puzzled :think:
Avidfan remarked that the 92 chromed brass housing are usually found with a 2416b movement, but since this dial has no date window, I guess it should be the 2415 movement then?
The 92 case has 2 slots, enabling a Amphibian case-back to fit ..... it has an Amphibian case back.
The Crystal is Amphibian (with a tension ring), the hands are Amphibian and it has a 2409 movement.

Quoting Straight-time (page 216): 
-------------------------------------------
" Sure some dents and pitting look suspicious, but I'd find odd (or rather, I can hardly think of an explanation) if somebody might have chosen build a franken by just swapping the original and almost indestructible SS 020 case with a less though chromed one, bothering to source an estethically identical model 92.

Where's the logic in this? I mean, look at dial, hands, crown, caseback(*) and its ring: if something so bad happened that the case was not usable anymore, how can they all still appear in such a good shape for the age? Unless of course they come from several different disassembled watches, but in such case hats off to the frankenmaker for having used parts with a wear so even and consistent among them, and for having been so faithful to the catalog.
My gut feeling (and my wish for you) is that you might have got a good one... fingers crossed.

(*) notice the numbered caseback, just as one should expect for a model appearing on the 1992-93 catalog but still bearing the Made in USSR marking "
------------------------------------------------

Would it indeed be a Franken watch with the "hats-off" for the frankenmaker to create a watch with such an even wear ??
Is there a possibility the watch was build like this?? :think:

I do have a 2415 or 2416b movements, or I do have 020 housings. Which way to go to make this watch original again? I guess if I were to go the auto-movement route, it makes it a kind of Generalskie (however no date window?) and therefor it needs Komandirskie hands. Perhaps transferring the whole lot to a 020 housing would be the most simple solution or is the "Generalskie" option more "rare" / desired ? :think:

Unless ....... unless the watch was build like this and should be left as is ?? :-s

What do the experts say :think: ?



Second picture is the condition of the dial I found underneath the heavy scratched glass and the other photo's are of the housing compared to a SS 020 housing.


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## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Going back to page 214 in which we discussed the Anti-magnetic Submarine watch with the pitted 020 (?) or 92 (?) housing. Well the watch has arrived and and as far as I can see the winner is Avidfan :-!
> It's indeed an alloy housing, it has the exact identical dimensions as the 020 Stainless steel housing (see pictures). It has a Amphibian-crystal with a tension-ring. The bezel dots & stripes are all black. There was a scratch on the dial at the 4-5 marker, some paint had curled up. The Amphibian hands are (repainted / retouched) black.
> 
> Reading the information given on page 214 and 215, it leaves me still a bit puzzled :think:
> Avidfan remarked that the 92 chromed brass housing are usually found with a 2416b movement, but since this dial has no date window, I guess it should be the 2415 movement then?
> The 92 case has 2 slots, enabling a Amphibian case-back to fit ..... it has an Amphibian case back.
> The Crystal is Amphibian (with a tension ring), the hands are Amphibian and it has a 2409 movement.
> 
> Quoting Straight-time (page 216):
> -------------------------------------------
> " Sure some dents and pitting look suspicious, but I'd find odd (or rather, I can hardly think of an explanation) if somebody might have chosen build a franken by just swapping the original and almost indestructible SS 020 case with a less though chromed one, bothering to source an estethically identical model 92.
> 
> Where's the logic in this? I mean, look at dial, hands, crown, caseback(*) and its ring: if something so bad happened that the case was not usable anymore, how can they all still appear in such a good shape for the age? Unless of course they come from several different disassembled watches, but in such case hats off to the frankenmaker for having used parts with a wear so even and consistent among them, and for having been so faithful to the catalog.
> My gut feeling (and my wish for you) is that you might have got a good one... fingers crossed.
> 
> (*) notice the numbered caseback, just as one should expect for a model appearing on the 1992-93 catalog but still bearing the Made in USSR marking "
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> Would it indeed be a Franken watch with the "hats-off" for the frankenmaker to create a watch with such an even wear ??
> Is there a possibility the watch was build like this?? :think:
> 
> I do have a 2415 or 2416b movements, or I do have 020 housings. Which way to go to make this watch original again? I guess if I were to go the auto-movement route, it makes it a kind of Generalskie (however no date window?) and therefor it needs Komandirskie hands. Perhaps transferring the whole lot to a 020 housing would be the most simple solution or is the "Generalskie" option more "rare" / desired ? :think:
> 
> Unless ....... unless the watch was build like this and should be left as is ?? :-s
> 
> What do the experts say :think: ?
> 
> Second picture is the condition of the dial I found underneath the heavy scratched glass and the other photo's are of the housing compared to a SS 020 housing.


Well I'm happy that I was right for a change regarding the 92 case! 

But the best way to restore this is to put it back to the configuration as seen in the 1993 Vostok catalogue: 020 case, 2409A movement, anti-magnetic shield and the numbered case back that came with the watch.

Regarding the 92 case, yes it usually comes fitted with the 2416b movement, in the mid-late 1990's Vostok would occasionally use a 2414A movement in the 92 case, they would also use a large flat Komandirskie design case back which has two tabs made for this specific purpose.

If you were to keep the brass 92 case then the numbered 200m Amphibia case back would be of course be wrong, would Vostok really have sold this combination of parts knowing knowing that the stated WR was wrong? :think:

As for the 2415 movement, It's not in any of the Soviet catalogues I've seen and I think it's quite a recent calibre, so to put it in a Soviet watch IMHO you would be making another franken!

But of course it's up to you to decide.


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## MattBrace

EndeavourDK said:


> Going back to page 214 in which we discussed the Anti-magnetic Submarine watch with the pitted 020 (?) or 92 (?) housing. Well the watch has arrived and and as far as I can see the winner is Avidfan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's indeed an alloy housing, it has the exact identical dimensions as the 020 Stainless steel housing (see pictures). It has a Amphibian-crystal with a tension-ring. The bezel dots & stripes are all black. There was a scratch on the dial at the 4-5 marker, some paint had curled up. The Amphibian hands are (repainted / retouched) black.
> 
> Reading the information given on page 214 and 215, it leaves me still a bit puzzled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Avidfan remarked that the 92 chromed brass housing are usually found with a 2416b movement, but since this dial has no date window, I guess it should be the 2415 movement then?
> The 92 case has 2 slots, enabling a Amphibian case-back to fit ..... it has an Amphibian case back.
> The Crystal is Amphibian (with a tension ring), the hands are Amphibian and it has a 2409 movement.
> 
> Quoting Straight-time (page 216):
> -------------------------------------------
> " Sure some dents and pitting look suspicious, but I'd find odd (or rather, I can hardly think of an explanation) if somebody might have chosen build a franken by just swapping the original and almost indestructible SS 020 case with a less though chromed one, bothering to source an estethically identical model 92.
> 
> Where's the logic in this? I mean, look at dial, hands, crown, caseback(*) and its ring: if something so bad happened that the case was not usable anymore, how can they all still appear in such a good shape for the age? Unless of course they come from several different disassembled watches, but in such case hats off to the frankenmaker for having used parts with a wear so even and consistent among them, and for having been so faithful to the catalog.
> My gut feeling (and my wish for you) is that you might have got a good one... fingers crossed.
> 
> (*) notice the numbered caseback, just as one should expect for a model appearing on the 1992-93 catalog but still bearing the Made in USSR marking "
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> Would it indeed be a Franken watch with the "hats-off" for the frankenmaker to create a watch with such an even wear ??
> Is there a possibility the watch was build like this??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a 2415 or 2416b movements, or I do have 020 housings. Which way to go to make this watch original again? I guess if I were to go the auto-movement route, it makes it a kind of Generalskie (however no date window?) and therefor it needs Komandirskie hands. Perhaps transferring the whole lot to a 020 housing would be the most simple solution or is the "Generalskie" option more "rare" / desired ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless ....... unless the watch was build like this and should be left as is ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do the experts say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> Second picture is the condition of the dial I found underneath the heavy scratched glass and the other photo's are of the housing compared to a SS 020 housing.


Your combination is certainly feasible,
See the attached auction.

Cheers...

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/162873177738


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## EndeavourDK

Reading this article Russian Watches Part 3: The Vostok Watch Factory (Chistopol) | Two Broke Watch Snobs, near the end it describes a bit in which dire straits the Chistopol factory in the begin 90's was and that by Lithuanian based organization watches were sold on the streets to recoup some of the wages.
Admits this chaos, what was left of the quality control and the "conflicting" build-evident we see in front of us (my watch and the one on eBay offer), I would think it makes it plausible that some watches left the factory assembled with materials available / on hand, assembled either with the correct materials or watches having the correct looks, but not so with the correct "Amphibian" materials.

The even wear on my watch suggest, or makes it plausible that this watch has been in this Amphibian / 92-housing combination from day one. The watch on eBay offer also seems to have a 92 case, even though it is nowhere stated and the watch isn't 100% "untouched", but the case color does suggest so. 
My watch dial has still the CCCP markings, whereas the watch on offer has not, dating it for sure post-Soviet.
But two "Amphibian" watches, one of them hardly worn, both in a 92 case makes the possibility that they left the factory as such more plausible.

About for the question how I'll proceed; I like to know that if it is very plausible that my watch, and the watch in the eBay offer, both left indeed the factory with the 92 housing "Amphibian" combination? If so, does that make my watch a "legit" watch ?? And what are the criteria's to make it legit or not?
If it turns out that my watch is "legit", I may leave it a such. Otherwise one of the "indestructible" 020 housing would be a straight swap and makes the watch as per the legit 2409A/020697 model featured in the 1993 catalogue.

For future reference here a few pictures of the watch in the eBay offer;


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## thewatchadude

Not sure what value as a reference we can give to the "ebay watch". The papers are cut so that the part that would allow us to identify the watch is missing. Maybe it's a coincidence but certainly it doesn't help in a search for evidence.


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## Straight_time

thewatchadude said:


> Not sure what value as a reference we can give to the "ebay watch". The papers are cut so that the part that would allow us to identify the watch is missing. Maybe it's a coincidence but certainly it doesn't help in a search for evidence.


My thought exactly.
Add to this that the passport is strategically showing the back, where absolutely no info is printed: not only model reference and s/n, but even the general group -i.e. "Amphibia"- or the caliber. When Amil has a genuine full set for sale (and he has many) he usually shows everything to increase the item's appeal, so I smell a rat here... :think:


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## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> About for the question how I'll proceed; I like to know that if it is very plausible that my watch, and the watch in the eBay offer, both left indeed the factory with the 92 housing "Amphibian" combination? If so, does that make my watch a "legit" watch ?? And what are the criteria's to make it legit or not?
> If it turns out that my watch is "legit", I may leave it a such. Otherwise one of the "indestructible" 020 housing would be a straight swap and makes the watch as per the legit 2409A/020697 model featured in the 1993 catalogue.


I did mention when you first posted the watch a few weeks ago that this combination of parts has been seen before, but no proof (paperwork) has ever turned up to prove that these are legitimate, and all we know from the papers with the eBay watch is that they were for a 2409A Amphibia.


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> I did mention when you first posted the watch a few weeks ago that this combination of parts has been seen before, but no proof (paperwork) has ever turned up to prove that these are legitimate, and all we know from the papers with the eBay watch is that they were for a 2409A Amphibia.


Yes, you did:-!

Since I like the idea of having a decent waterproof watch with an "indestructible" case, I decided to polish up a 020 casing and transfer the movement+dial to a 020 case. I'm pretty sure I will find a good use for the 92 case 

Thank you all for your help !!

Just to show how the cheap Submarine gamble I did, a few weeks ago, turned out. The watch is featured on page 220 of this thread.

This is the condition of the dial which was hiding underneath the fully scratched crystal, only slight damage on the 4 & 5 hour marker lume; unfortunately the picture doesn't do justice to the beauty & condition of the dial ;-)


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## RobNJ

In which certain problems of returning to your collection after a long hiatus are revealed...

Raketa "Komandirskie." I bought this probably back in 2012-13 - I can't find the record, unfortunately. It is nearly identical to a watch featured in a collection replete with Raketa oddities that back then, certainly, was highly regarded. (See here, first page, post #7: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/samun-collection-755520.html). For this reason, at the time I considered it as either Raketa production in the strange post-1992 moment or at most as a Raketa-contracted dial, but not as simply a seller creation. Coming back to it, I'll admit I'm not sure what to think (beyond the obvious: "Raketa, stay in your lane!"). Anyone else have experience with this one or evidence as to its origins?


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## Eric M

RobNJ said:


> In which certain problems of returning to your collection after a long hiatus are revealed...
> 
> Raketa "Komandirskie." I bought this probably back in 2012-13 - I can't find the record, unfortunately. It is nearly identical to a watch featured in a collection replete with Raketa oddities that back then, certainly, was highly regarded. (See here, first page, post #7: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/samun-collection-755520.html). For this reason, at the time I considered it as either Raketa production in the strange post-1992 moment or at most as a Raketa-contracted dial, but not as simply a seller creation. Coming back to it, I'll admit I'm not sure what to think (beyond the obvious: "Raketa, stay in your lane!"). Anyone else have experience with this one or evidence as to its origins?
> 
> View attachment 13808507
> 
> 
> View attachment 13808509


I don't have any input, but that's a really strange looking watch. I like it!

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## RobNJ

It is quite something, isn't it?


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## CrusadesOClock

Yeah idk either but I like the case, looks solid and weighty


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## Kamburov

RobNJ said:


> In which certain problems of returning to your collection after a long hiatus are revealed...
> 
> Raketa "Komandirskie." I bought this probably back in 2012-13 - I can't find the record, unfortunately. It is nearly identical to a watch featured in a collection replete with Raketa oddities that back then, certainly, was highly regarded. (See here, first page, post #7: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/samun-collection-755520.html). For this reason, at the time I considered it as either Raketa production in the strange post-1992 moment or at most as a Raketa-contracted dial, but not as simply a seller creation. Coming back to it, I'll admit I'm not sure what to think (beyond the obvious: "Raketa, stay in your lane!"). Anyone else have experience with this one or evidence as to its origins?


It is an oddity for sure. I don't have any experience with it, so I'll share my humble opinion 
This case design is from the very beginning of the 90's, and we all know what was going on with soviet watch industry back then. Everyone was trying their best to sell the piles of watches in the warehouses. Military theme was (and still is) very popular, but even Vostok was doing KGB stunts to sell some. Maybe this is an example of a very hastily executed marketing experiment, or a small reseller order. The quality of the print (and design) is, let's be honest, quite low and done in a hurry. Not very typical for Raketa design division. 
Wasn't Samun an ex-raketa emplyee or something?
I just look at it as an interesting Raketa transitional period oddity, that is cool to have in the collection. It carries the spirit of it's time, which was an odd time 
Ivan


----------



## RobNJ

Kamburov said:


> It is an oddity for sure. I don't have any experience with it, so I'll share my humble opinion
> This case design is from the very beginning of the 90's, and we all know what was going on with soviet watch industry back then. Everyone was trying their best to sell the piles of watches in the warehouses. Military theme was (and still is) very popular, but even Vostok was doing KGB stunts to sell some. Maybe this is an example of a very hastily executed marketing experiment, or a small reseller order. The quality of the print (and design) is, let's be honest, quite low and done in a hurry. Not very typical for Raketa design division.
> Wasn't Samun an ex-raketa emplyee or something?
> I just look at it as an interesting Raketa transitional period oddity, that is cool to have in the collection. It carries the spirit of it's time, which was an odd time
> Ivan


Thanks - yes, that is probably about my inclination as well. I believe it slightly more given the "Ofiserskie" calendar watches that rolled out about this time as well.

The dial is quite funky - it is as if they were going for a stenciled sort of look, although I agree it comes off as childish if you're not positively inclined. Kitsch, certainly, but interesting kitsch.

The day and date are both stuck, unfortunately, though the quickset date works. I'll eventually get around to addressing that.


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## Kieranz

I need a bit of a sense check here. Firstly wanting to know if this example is legit or if it is a cobbled together job. My worry is it all looks a bit too clean. 


Am I also correct in assuming these watches are of an age where the lume won't be radium? The other question is what price I should be paying for this sort of watch. By this I mean if it is an original example. The price for this one seems a bit steep and don't want to end up over paying.


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## Straight_time

The font of the dial looks genuine; on most original examples the indexes don't look so perfect, but on the other hand the known fake dials around are easily spotted for their squared contours and for their overall "gross" appearence... if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say it could be a highly professional reluming job on a very well preserved original; but since you mention a steep price, you'd better wait for more knowledgeable members to chime in. ;-)


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## schnurrp

I would ask the seller if the lume is still active. If it isn't that's a good sign but not conclusive since the seller may be a better forger than usual. If it is active then it's been re-lumed.

Also, a minor detail, but isn't the movement missing a carrier attachment screw?


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## Eric M

Friend picked this up in the wild recently. What is the correct handset for this dial?









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## haha

These


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## sirepsyer

Dear experts,
I'm new to the wonderful watch-world, and I would love your help with buying my first Russian watches. Are the following Poljot watches legit, fake, or frankens?:think:

1) Poljot de luxe: 














2) Poljot de luxe: 








3) Poljot de luxe: 














4) Poljot de luxe: 














5) Poljot...? Never seen this dial before: 








Thank you!!!


----------



## mariomart

sirepsyer said:


> Dear experts,
> I'm new to the wonderful watch-world, and I would love your help with buying my first Russian watches. Are the following Poljot watches legit, fake, or frankens?:think:


Not an expert in Poljot in any way, but this is how I see it.

1. Real
2. Fake
3. Real
4. Real
5. Real

As I said, it's all a guess, but going off gut feeling only.


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## Kamburov

Welcome to the forum!
Will try to check with the catalogue info when I get the time, but I don't see them as very legit on a first glance. Beside the obvious modern reproduction black dial (№2, as Mario mentioned) the rest look like recased watches. That means taken from original gold-plated cases (gone for gold content extraction) and transferred into chrome-plated cases. 
Will have to check in the catalogues which models have been issued originally in chromed-plated cases. 
Ivan

PS: Well, checked as much as I could, but no indication that the above deluxes have ever been produced in chrome-plated case. It seems to be always 20 micron gold-plated. So there we go
1. Should be a gold-plated case
2. Reproduction dial, case should be gold-plated, hands should be pointy (not baton)
3. Should be gold-plated
4. As 3 + hands should be golden
5. Should be in a gold-plated, or gold colour case (see attached pictures)

The 20 micron gold plated cases from the 60s are very sought after for their gold content. The homeless movements usually find a new home in a chrome-plated case. These are usually from a Luch or Sekonda. 
If I'm wrong anyone can correct me.
Ivan


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## sirepsyer

Amazing!! Thanks so much for your help Kamburov and Mario! 
I think I just saved $100 to invest in a good watch later


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## sirepsyer

Amazing!! Thanks so much for your help @Kamburov and @Mario! 
I think I just saved $100 to invest in a good watch later


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## EndeavourDK

I've seen the watch below and since nobody has bid on it (yet), I'm wondering whether they all know something I don't. Do these dials come fake too ?
Like to hear what the experts say !?


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I've seen the watch below and since nobody has bid on it (yet), I'm wondering whether they all know something I don't. Do these dials come fake too ?
> Like to hear what the experts say !?


Dial is ok but has the wrong hands (should be komandirskie hands) and is usually found in a 091 case or occasionally a 92, so you could call it a Generalskie or auto-komandirskie, amphibian case back is obviously wrong also.

EDIT: Forgot the bezel :roll:, it's usually found on 34 cased komandirskie's.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Dial is ok but has the wrong hands (should be komandirskie hands) and is usually found in a 091 case or occasionally a 92, so you could call it a Generalskie or auto-komandirskie, amphibian case back is obviously wrong also.
> 
> EDIT: Forgot the bezel :roll:, it's usually found on 34 cased komandirskie's.


Thank you very much ! So, basically it's a total Franken apart from the dial (and perhaps the movement?) ...... if one can describe it like that :-d
I wasn't quite sure in which configurations this dial came, but I guess it has the be a Generalskie configuration (as outlined a few pages back).

I think I'll let this one go, but for whom is interested: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RUSSIAN-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Thanks :-!


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## RobNJ

The blue Luch from my bottom drawer:

















1) The dial and hands can be found on Luch model 973130, seen on the Watches of the USSR site and corroborated with a catalog link. That watch has a gold plated, cushion case. This does not exclude (for me) the possibility that this dial and hand combination may also be legit with another case, e.g. the one I have.

2) I don't take the gold hands/indices and chrome case combination as dispositive that the watch is wrong; that can be found on plenty of Soviet watches.

3) The casing of the Luch-branded 2209 is robust and not obviously altered. It is not stuck in the case with bubble gum. Check out that gasket, by the way!

4) My case, complete with the fixed white internal bezel, is somewhat unusual. Note that it flairs slightly to the sides such that it forms a slight horizontal oval (ca 42mm by 38mm, excluding lugs). What I _would_ take as negative corroboration is if someone could pick out this case with a totally different watch.

Any thoughts? The relative lack of collector interest in Luch compared with the larger marques has me at loss on this one.


----------



## Straight_time

Guilty as charged :-(

Due to lack of specific knowledge of the brand I couldn't tell much about the dial/hands combo, but the case is a Vostok 061.


----------



## RobNJ

Interesting, thank you! So now I'm imagining the Vostok 061 case and caseback - (and gasket - should have thought of that; who makes big gaskets, after all?), but with the movement retaining rings from the original Luch. I guess I should also conclude that the Luch 973 case and the Vostok 061 are just coincidentally dimensionally similar (?)

Of course it runs great and has for years!


----------



## thewatchadude

The lugs do not look similar to me. Is it just a question of the photos?


----------



## Straight_time

thewatchadude said:


> The lugs do not look similar to me. Is it just a question of the photos?


Yes, light reflections on the catalog's examples


----------



## EndeavourDK

Dear Experts;

I like to collect some of the Vostok CCCP submarine series and I've seen this watch, advertised as NOS, year of manufacture 1980-1989, full original.
With my limited experience, I can't spot something obviously wrong (perhaps the hands not being the old-type (?) and/or the second-hand not being red?), but to make sure and to avoid big surprises, I like to run it pass the experts verdict .....
Is it what the seller says it is ?
Hope to hear ...... ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Dear Experts;
> 
> I like to collect some of the Vostok CCCP submarine series and I've seen this watch, advertised as NOS, year of manufacture 1980-1989, full original.
> With my limited experience, I can't spot something obviously wrong (perhaps the hands not being the old-type (?) and/or the second-hand not being red?), but to make sure and to avoid big surprises, I like to run it pass the experts verdict .....
> Is it what the seller says it is ?
> Hope to hear ...... ;-)


Here it is in the 1993 Vostok catalogue with a different bezel and a red second hand:









The silver second hand on the watch you show is a known variant, the 'dot-dash' bezel if original to the watch would date it to more like 1991-1993, the other hands look like the usual komandirskie hands from the era, movement also looks original and in good condition


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Here it is in the 1993 Vostok catalogue with a different bezel and a red second hand:
> 
> The silver second hand on the watch you show is a known variant, the 'dot-dash' bezel if original to the watch would date it to more like 1991-1993, the other hands look like the usual komandirskie hands from the era, movement also looks original and in good condition


Okay, so it's just the bezel which isn't original ..... for sure or perhaps?; if one can ask that question with Russian watches at all?
I think I do have a dot-dot-dot-dash bezel ...... somewhere .......
Anyway, if the second-hand is a known variant and only the bezels is (perhaps) iffy, then I'll go for it .... I've got the price already negotiated down and as you said, it seems in very good condition 
A nice addition to my CCCP submarine collection b-)

Now next are these textured (corrugated) CCCP submarine dials (blue & green) in nice/mint condition ...... they seem (much) harder to get...... (but I think that's okay as the hunt is more interesting than the catch :-d)

Thanks for you quick help again !! :-!


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Okay, so it's just the bezel which isn't original ..... for sure or perhaps?; if one can ask that question with Russian watches at all?
> I think I do have a dot-dot-dot-dash bezel ...... somewhere .......
> Anyway, if the second-hand is a known variant and only the bezels is (perhaps) iffy, then I'll go for it .... I've got the price already negotiated down and as you said, it seems in very good condition
> A nice addition to my CCCP submarine collection b-)
> 
> Now next are these textured (corrugated) CCCP submarine dials (blue & green) in nice/mint condition ...... they seem (much) harder to get...... (but I think that's okay as the hunt is more interesting than the catch :-d)
> 
> Thanks for you quick help again !! :-!


Bezel is fine for a watch from 1991-93, earlier versions came with different bezels, second hand, case back, the 'dot-dot-dot-dash' bezel is just another variant and if you look at type 34 cased komandirskie's in the 1993 catalogue you'll see both types used.

Here's an image from the 1990 Vostok Tento catalogue showing another bezel type and it also has a silver lollipop second hand. all acceptable variants from the time they were manufactured


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Here's an image from the 1990 Vostok Tento catalogue showing another bezel type and it also has a silver lollipop second hand. all acceptable variants from the time they were manufactured


Thank you very much for the information ! :-!
Also for showing the nearly black, or dark blue dial in the Tento catalogue, I never seen that one before (which is hardly surprising); so, that's another one on my list to chase 
Just like all the bezel / hands / case variations possible, a never ending collecting story :-d


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Also for showing the nearly black, or dark blue dial in the Tento catalogue, I never seen that one before (which is hardly surprising); so, that's another one on my list to chase


I wouldn't worry about the colour of the dial in the 1990 catalogue too much, it's probably very dark from when the catalogue was printed/scanned.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> I wouldn't worry about the colour of the dial in the 1990 catalogue too much, it's probably very dark from when the catalogue was printed/scanned.


Yes, understood :-!

However they stay two slightly different dials, for example at the 12 lume-marker & the lining around the red-star. No earth shattering differences, but still ..... for the keen & eager to learn eye !? :-d :-d :-d


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Yes, understood :-!
> 
> However they stay two slightly different dials, for example at the 12 lume-marker & the lining around the red-star. No earth shattering differences, but still ..... for the keen & eager to learn eye !? :-d :-d :-d


Yes, just more variants!

Here's the one on Russian Times: submarine5

Also another at NHT: Vostok Komandirskie "Submarine" | NHT Watches Gallery (Go back a page for the Soviet version! also there are other submarine dials on NHT :-!)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Yes, just more variants!
> 
> Here's the one on Russian Times: submarine5
> 
> Also another at NHT: Vostok Komandirskie "Submarine" | NHT Watches Gallery


The first link, apart from 3AKA3, it seems nearly, if not 100% identical to the one I just bought, the same bezel and the shiny second-hand. Since it seems to have the authentication papers, that would solve the "iffiness" issue of my bezel.
The second link is post soviet; yes another variant but for now I like to concentrate on CCCP and that is already more than I can chew, mentally, educationally and budget wise :-s BTW: picture 31/40 .....drool .... drool ..... drool ...

Thanks again for your great help ...... surely more to come :-!


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> BTW: picture 31/40 .....drool .... drool ..... drool ...


+1 :-d


----------



## mariomart

EndeavourDK said:


> BTW: picture 31/40 .....drool .... drool ..... drool ...


It is very nice :-! Here's mine


----------



## Dub Rubb

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Has anyone seen this dial in a different case? It looks legit, and I have bought from this seller before, but the price is sky high. I get it if it is super rare, but $289 is STEEP for a vintage Vostok. I would love to get this for my dad who loves his boat, but he hates watches with less than 20mm bands and isn't a fan of the Tonneau cases.

I also don't know what to make of it being a hand winder. Is it an Amphibia? Komandirskie? Franken? I just want that dial and for it to be real.

If it was cheaper, I would just buy it and swap the movement/dial into a different case, but can't seem to find this variant anywhere. Any help/info would be appreciated. Thanks in advance comrades.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



Dub Rubb said:


> Has anyone seen this dial in a different case? It looks legit, and I have bought from this seller before, but the price is sky high. I get it if it is super rare, but $289 is STEEP for a vintage Vostok. I would love to get this for my dad who loves his boat, but he hates watches with less than 20mm bands and isn't a fan of the Tonneau cases.
> 
> I also don't know what to make of it being a hand winder. Is it an Amphibia? Komandirskie? Franken? I just want that dial and for it to be real.
> 
> If it was cheaper, I would just buy it and swap the movement/dial into a different case, but can't seem to find this variant anywhere. Any help/info would be appreciated. Thanks in advance comrades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


I believe this is a fantasy dial. The case, case-back and movement all fit with the over-polished 119 case. But I don't think I've ever seen a genuine white faced Amphibia that used silver hands, it would normally have black hands.

As for the dial I believe it's taken a popular Albatross dial sail boat theme and combined it with a popular Amphibia dial, so I doubt it was ever made at the factory like this. Also the fact that it has an anti-magnetic shield in the back but nothing stamped on the dial is also a mismatch. Also the 17 jewel count on the dial is for a 2409 series movement, whereas the movement fitted is an 18 jewel 2209.


----------



## Straight_time

Already at first glance, something just doesn't sound right... look at how badly the dial fits, it can't be born that way.

On the other hand, the extremely high level of detail and the font used for the Сделано в СССР writing are rather undoubtely original IMHO.

The hour digits are identical in style to those used for the model pictured below and a couple of others that I can't find at the moment, which all date around 1988/90 -that is, a few years after the tonneau 119 case went out of production. 
My best guess is that this dial might have similarly been housed in a 320 or 470 case.


----------



## Dub Rubb

Thanks for the info Mariomart and straight time. I knew it was Franken, just really wanted the dial to be authentic and exist elsewhere. He still has the other Vostok I gave him though!









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## EndeavourDK

I started noticing these dials more and more ...... or is it just me focusing on them?
Are these fantasy or genuine Vostok dials? So far I haven't seen them in catalogues but then again, I'm just starting poking around in what's genuine and what's not .....
If they are genuine, since there is no "made in ...." I would assume these dials are from the transit period? Komandiskie, Amphibian or do they belong in a complete different housing?
Hope to hear ......;-)


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I started noticing these dials more and more ...... or is it just me focusing on them?
> Are these fantasy or genuine Vostok dials? So far I haven't seen them in catalogues but then again, I'm just starting poking around in what's genuine and what's not .....
> If they are genuine, since there is no "made in ...." I would assume these dials are from the transit period? Komandiskie, Amphibian or do they belong in a complete different housing?
> Hope to hear ......;-)


It's one I've seen before and as you say it's not in any catalogues but it is probably ok, made post-Soviet for use with the 2409A movement and probably for use in a 020 case


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> It's one I've seen before and as you say it's not in any catalogues but it is probably ok, made post-Soviet for use with the 2409A movement and probably for use in a 020 case


Intriguing and interesting dial b-)

Thanks a lot for the swift reply :-!


----------



## Straight_time

My 2 cents: most, if not all, Vostoks housed in 020 cases are antimagnetic, and marked as such on dials. 
For instance, on the 1993 catalog 12 out of 15 models bear that marking, and on those where it's missing it's because the drawing leaves no space for almost anything else (the watch with boat and Russian Navy flag only has the "B" logo, while the 2 models with Russian flag have nothing at all).

Since the dial pictured above has enough room to write Dante's Inferno on it, I'd tend to believe it might be born that way (the case with crown at 3 is less common than its twin with crown at 2, BTW).


----------



## Avidfan

Straight_time said:


> My 2 cents: most, if not all, Vostoks housed in 020 cases are antimagnetic, and marked as such on dials.
> For instance, on the 1993 catalog 12 out of 15 models bear that marking, and on those where it's missing it's because the drawing leaves no space for almost anything else (the watch with boat and Russian Navy flag only has the "B" logo, while the 2 models with Russian flag have nothing at all).
> 
> Since the dial pictured above has enough room to write Dante's Inferno on it, I'd tend to believe it might be born that way (the case with crown at 3 is less common than its twin with crown at 2, BTW).


You could be correct but without a catalogue image of this dial it will always be impossible to know where it should be housed for sure, but there are many 2409A dials from the 1992-1994 era housed in 020 cases that don't have 'anti-magnetic' on the dial but they still have the shield inside.

The OP's latest purchases here are a good example: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-227.html#post48026523 both came with shields in 020 cases but only one has 'anti-magnetic' on the dial.

And then of course you have the problem of the komandirskie case that looks like a type 33 but with the crown at 3, I've only ever seen these with a 2414A movement inside, but of course without a catalogue entry again impossible to prove or disprove if it's legitimate or not to have a 2409A in this case, but a 2409A komandirskie would be unusual.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Talking to comrade Avidfan regarding which 2409/2414 movement main-plate stamps belongs to which wheel-train bridge stamp, I decided for educational purposes to post a picture with an eBay lot of 2409/2414 scrap movements. It's not the best picture in the world, but it's the best I have and I hope it can be enlarged after posting. It shows some of the combinations. Yes, the movements could have been altered, but to me they look reasonable original.
If somebody has a better picture (or pictures) of old movements, so the stamping on main-plate / bridge combinations can be compared & studied, I would very much like to see them.
Even better if somebody can provide a "time-line" in which certain combinations were used .......
I hope it works ...... :think:


----------



## thewatchadude

Gentlemen (strangely this forum looks a bit like an old-style all-men British club),

Any chance this dial may have anything of genuine? The whole watch probably being a franken.


----------



## mariomart

thewatchadude said:


> Gentlemen (strangely this forum looks a bit like an old-style all-men British club),
> 
> Any chance this dial may have anything of genuine? The whole watch probably being a franken.


Genuine Komandirskie case and crown, genuine Vostok Amphibia bezel (with a nasty crack in the acrylic insert), genuine Vostok Amphibia dial from the early 90's, genuine early Komandirskie hand set, and judging from the font on the calendar wheel I suspect there is a Soviet era 2414 manual wind movement lurking in there (not automatic as this Komandirskie case is physically incapable of having a rotor).

So, all genuine in my eyes, but from different donors so it's a franken (or a Mod if you look at it that way)


----------



## thewatchadude

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*



mariomart said:


> I believe this is a fantasy dial. The case, case-back and movement all fit with the over-polished 119 case. But I don't think I've ever seen a genuine white faced Amphibia that used silver hands, it would normally have black hands.
> 
> As for the dial I believe it's taken a popular Albatross dial sail boat theme and combined it with a popular Amphibia dial, so I doubt it was ever made at the factory like this. Also the fact that it has an anti-magnetic shield in the back but nothing stamped on the dial is also a mismatch. Also the 17 jewel count on the dial is for a 2409 series movement, whereas the movement fitted is an 18 jewel 2209.


If this dial is a genuine one I would love to find one whatever case it is housed in!

Also, mariomart which Albatross are you referring to?


----------



## thewatchadude

mariomart said:


> Genuine Komandirskie case and crown, genuine Vostok Amphibia bezel (with a nasty crack in the acrylic insert), genuine Vostok Amphibia dial from the early 90's, genuine early Komandirskie hand set, and judging from the font on the calendar wheel I suspect there is a Soviet era 2414 manual wind movement lurking in there (not automatic as this Komandirskie case is physically incapable of having a rotor).
> 
> So, all genuine in my eyes, but from different donors so it's a franken (or a Mod if you look at it that way)


Thanks. I would only be interested in the dial. A bit struck by the lume points, they've been re-done, right?


----------



## mariomart

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks. I would only be interested in the dial. A bit struck by the lume points, they've been re-done, right?


Nope, the big dot lume was a "thing" at that point in Vostok's manufacturing.

Here is mine :-!


----------



## Straight_time

Avidfan said:


> You could be correct but without a catalogue image of this dial it will always be impossible to know where it should be housed for sure, but there are many 2409A dials from the 1992-1994 era housed in 020 cases that don't have 'anti-magnetic' on the dial but they still have the shield inside.
> 
> The OP's latest purchases here are a good example: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-227.html#post48026523 both came with shields in 020 cases but only one has 'anti-magnetic' on the dial.
> 
> And then of course you have the problem of the komandirskie case that looks like a type 33 but with the crown at 3, I've only ever seen these with a 2414A movement inside, but of course without a catalogue entry again impossible to prove or disprove if it's legitimate or not to have a 2409A in this case, but a 2409A komandirskie would be unusual.


I agree with everything you said (altough this dial perfectly falls under the "_no room for anything else_" category)










Guess we'll never know the correct configuration for that watch, but I found its close relative (the design of the dial is exactly the same, except that it has the more usual "6" instead of the anchor)









And while I was searching around for clues, I stumbled upon this other oddity... I am no deep expert in Vostok cases, but has anybody seen this model before :-s


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Straight-time; Finally I can (perhaps?) help you, for a change ....... the oddity case is, from what I understood, a 270 case (the modern 100 with 18mm lugs)
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/myst...lot-like-100-but-has-18mm-lugs-2505754-2.html
and page 217 of this thread.


----------



## Straight_time

Great, thanks! :-!


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Straight_time: BTW; I bought the watch with the star / anchor dial (black). I asked the seller for a better picture, but his camera was broken think: ?) ...... but he assured me that the dial was in an excellent condition ..... I put in an offer for US$ 25, which was accepted ...... we have to see if that pays off :-s
If it's good, then it's worth for me .... ;-)
It doesn't seem to be a dial were one stumbles over every day ..... or is it?


----------



## Avidfan

Straight_time said:


> Guess we'll never know the correct configuration for that watch, but I found its close relative (the design of the dial is exactly the same, except that it has the more usual "6" instead of the anchor)


There's also another variant of this dial in the Juri Levenburg book housed in a 270 case, (#199) but with three lines of text above the "6". 

EDIT: Also another on eBay with the same dial as the Levenburg book but in a 091 case.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> There's also another variant of this dial in the Juri Levenburg book housed in a 270 case, (#199) but with three lines of text above the "6".


Does it ever stop !? :-s (And there is the 270 case again, I guess I need one too .....! )

:-d


----------



## Bauta

The 270 case is correct for the big lume scuba dude as well. Look at Mariomart's video


----------



## FoxMullder

Hi, my first post here - I recently bought 2 vostok watches - can you tell if it's legit and meybe production time?


----------



## Avidfan

FoxMullder said:


> Hi, my first post here - I recently bought 2 vostok watches - can you tell if it's legit and meybe production time?


A type 21 case with a 499 dial, so the full code for this would be 211499, the type 21 case with small crown was introduced around 1999.

Hope this helps


----------



## FoxMullder

Avidfan said:


> FoxMullder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, my first post here - I recently bought 2 vostok watches - can you tell if it's legit and meybe production time?
> 
> 
> 
> A type 21 case with a 499 dial, so the full code for this would be 211499, the type 21 case with small crown was introduced around 1999.
> 
> Hope this helps
Click to expand...

WOW! Nice, thanks - is there a place where I can check all Dial's and case's?


----------



## Avidfan

FoxMullder said:


> WOW! Nice, thanks - is there a place where I can check all Dial's and case's?


Try here 

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/113098239036073221216


----------



## EndeavourDK

Something doesn't make sense ...... :-s ??

Recently I bought an in Collectors-condition Radio Room Komandirskie/Generalskie. All looked fine, it had a SU 2416b. It seemed to run, but as with any watch I receive, I give it a service first ......
First "odd" thing I noticed was, unlike the barrel-bridge and the wheel-train bridge, that the balance cock did not have a chamfered edge. During disassembly I also couldn't figure for 100% conclusively out whether I was the first one after the factory to disassemble this movement. 
I found that one of the pallet-fork jewels was sitting loose in its setting and underneath the balance-cock there were no less than 3 spacers-plates to adjust the balance end-shake.

Not having the right equipment to fix the pallet jewel in its setting with shellac, I replaced the pallet-fork with one which seemed to have the right draw & lock. When re-placing the balance assembly the movement springs alive. But as soon as I wind the spring, the balance amplitude increases and then the balance locks itself, most likely an end-shake issue or an other misalignment issue. Replaced the old pallet fork (with the loose jewel), but the draw & pull from that one doesn't seem right ??

The question which now comes to my mind ....... is the balance-assembly actually, since it hasn't got a chamfered edge, the original at all??
Is there a probability that it could be original or a for sure not ??

First picture is of the problem SU-movement I'm currently working on (I just replaced the balance assembly for the picture).

The second picture is of a spare RUS 2416b movement which has all bridges chamfered. I do have two more spare (RUS) 2416b, all chamfered edges.

I would very much like to hear you thoughts .....


----------



## Kamburov

While some of the comrades here might say that there are rare cases where a mix of those might come out the factory, I believe this is a 2414A ballance bridge on a 2416B movement. They are pretty much interchangeable on theory, but in practice they have been made on different machinery and at different times. Also slight modifications may have taken place at some point. So a replacement might work well, but not as good as the original part.
You don't really know what was replaced, was it just the ballance? I did a lot of swapping of parts before, to the point that I made a big mess and couldn't reverse it. now I try not to touch the ballance, pallet fork and train bridge. Or I use a spare movement with a close production time to the one I try to fix. For that purpose I have collected a lot of spare movements for future use. This strategy has worked best for me, but now I've lost my ability to solve problems with limited resources available (as in your situation). 
I realise this information is almost useless for you  and I hope another comrade will have a more practical input.
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Thank you for your input Ivan;

I start to think too that the balance and perhaps the fork aren't the original. Perhaps not for the casual eye, but there is a lot going on in a escapement. In the older days, all the pallet-fork jewels were adjusted to each escape wheel, to obtain the correct draw & lock. After the adjustment they became a compatible set and therefor the last thing you want to "mess" with are the pallet-fork & escape wheel. The Vostok movements are mass produced and I can hardly imagine that the pallet-fork jewels are getting individually adjusted to each escape wheel. Having said this, I attempted 7 or 8 of my spare pallet forks and only one was a match (?).

Like with any hobby, one can go as far / deep & expensive as you like, but I drew the line when it came to changing out jewels, changing balance staff (expensive stack-set), balance poising etc. For fixing a pallet jewel one needs a (copper) hot plate, which isn't that hard to make yourself, but adjusting the jewels so they are all in the lines and having the correct draw & lock, is a different matter. One needs a very in-depth knowledge of the exact Swiss escapement workings.

Therefor for me it's down to finding a replacement set (pallet-fork / escapement wheel & balance). That's option 1).
Option 2) The spare RUS 2416b movement in the (2nd) picture runs fine and looks nearly identical. Perhaps not for the purist, but I could change out the RUS auto-winding bridge for the SU-bridge and if required, change the calendar wheel with the correct font?
Besides, if the balance assembly isn't the original, what else isn't? Perhaps it's already mix-movement with a SU-bridge on it ???? Having found this with the balance out, I start to doubt everything ..... sadly I like to add. I had high hopes and great confident in that I bought a genuine Radio Room, never been tempered with :-(


----------



## Kamburov

I think I've seen many cheap lots of spare 2409 and 2414 on Ebay. I've never bought one as I live in Eastern Europe and I have plenty available locally, but you may consider it as a solution in the long run, and if you plan to include the vostoks in your hobby. Members who have used that option may advise on it.
Or use the "parts wanted" section in the forum and find a member close to you who can help you? Most members here are quite friendly and supportive.
Ivan


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Something doesn't make sense ...... :-s ??
> 
> Recently I bought an in Collectors-condition Radio Room Komandirskie/Generalskie. All looked fine, it had a SU 2416b. It seemed to run, but as with any watch I receive, I give it a service first ......
> First "odd" thing I noticed was, unlike the barrel-bridge and the wheel-train bridge, that the balance cock did not have a chamfered edge. During disassembly I also couldn't figure for 100% conclusively out whether I was the first one after the factory to disassemble this movement.
> I found that one of the pallet-fork jewels was sitting loose in its setting and underneath the balance-cock there were no less than 3 spacers-plates to adjust the balance end-shake.
> 
> Not having the right equipment to fix the pallet jewel in its setting with shellac, I replaced the pallet-fork with one which seemed to have the right draw & lock. When re-placing the balance assembly the movement springs alive. But as soon as I wind the spring, the balance amplitude increases and then the balance locks itself, most likely an end-shake issue or an other misalignment issue. Replaced the old pallet fork (with the loose jewel), but the draw & pull from that one doesn't seem right ??
> 
> The question which now comes to my mind ....... is the balance-assembly actually, since it hasn't got a chamfered edge, the original at all??
> Is there a probability that it could be original or a for sure not ??
> 
> First picture is of the problem SU-movement I'm currently working on (I just replaced the balance assembly for the picture).
> 
> The second picture is of a spare RUS 2416b movement which has all bridges chamfered. I do have two more spare (RUS) 2416b, all chamfered edges.
> 
> I would very much like to hear you thoughts .....


I too used to think that a balance bridge that didn't match must have been changed, but I've changed my mind! Here are images of 2 NOS Vremir series 1 Desert Shields from early 1991 both with a straight edged balance bridge, I think there must of been something going on at the factory at the time as it's difficult to find one that's not like this.















As for shims underneath the balance you can find them on brand new watches, a recent new Komandirskie classic I bought had 2, so It's not necessarily a sign that a watch has been messed with, as for pallet forks I recently tried to put a new one in a 20 year old 2414A and It wouldn't fit, I then tried one from a scrap Soviet 2409A cadet and It went in straight away :-s, so I don't know what's going on there, I thought they were all interchangeable.

Anyway I hope this helps a little


----------



## Kamburov

Yes, I've noticed some of these (rotor signed "twenty one 21 jewels", caseback signed "made in russia Восток...") are like that. Didn't realize all are like that.


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## EndeavourDK

@Kamburov; I indeed bought once a lot of 2409 / 2414 scrap movements, so no real lack of most parts. This was the reason that I had at least 8 pallet forks to try. Balances are another story, as most of them had broken staff pivots.

@Avidfan; No, certainly not all parts are interchangeable. For example some main-plates, at the anti-shock, are flush (main-plates with fixed anti-schock setting), others do have a bevel (main-plates with removable anti-shock setting). This difference you will find at the bottom (some call it the top) of the balance staff / roller-table. I took a picture, with the light coming sideways to highlight the contours. The left balance roller table has a ring and will fit only the removable anti-shock setting.
The balance roller table in the Radio Room movement had a ring, matching the main-plate removable anti-shock setting. However, some of the 2409 and 2414 main-plates do also come with the same removable anti-shock settings, requiring the same "ringed" roller table.

Yes, I'm aware that nearly all 24xx do have shims. It was the combination of the amount of shims required, the poor draw & lock of the original pallet fork (with the loose jewel) that made me, next to the none-shamfered balance bridge, very suspicious.

However the good news now is, with your information above, that a different balance cock does not necessarily imply that it's a none original replacement from a 2409 / 2414.
That gives one hope again ! ;-)

I think that I'll disassemble a working (with a removable anti-shock setting) 2409/2414 (Balance / pallet fork & escape-wheel) and see if I can get a working combination in the 2416b, either with the original balance or the balance from the donor 2409/2414 (with or without shamfered bevel)

I do have 4x spare RUS 2416b movements, but none of the main-plates do have a removable anti-shock setting, meaning none of the balances will fit the SU 2416b main-plate ...... therefor the donor has to be an older 2409 / 2414 with a removable anti-shock setting.

Also the pallet-fork seem to come different in shape / size, but up till now I never took the effort to figure out what the differences are exactly. And so one goes deeper and deeper in the Vostok rabbit-hole ......:-d


----------



## EndeavourDK

Well, well ........ I had a 2409 SU movement with all the bridges shamfered, broken balance but with the original escape wheel and pallet fork. Planted both donor parts in the SU 2416B, but it was clear to see that the horns were further away from the balance center, not by a lot, perhaps 0.1 mm, but visible. Tried to get the balance going, but no suc6. The impulse jewel struck the horns of the fork.
I had another 2409 SU, with wheel- & barrel-bridge shamfered, but this time with a straight edged balance cock (?). The balance, pallet fork & escape wheel were all okay. Planted the escape-wheel plus the pallet-fork in the SU 2416b. Clearly, the fork was longer than the previous. Installed the original SU 2416b balance assemble and the balance took off ......
How well it runs? ....... Not very well, but not too bad either. At least it's alive and the amplitude of around 240 degrees may climb. I probably have to strip / clean / oil the movement again since I lifted the wheel train bridge many times and the "wave" may come from some dirt in the wheel-train (?). We have to see......

If the movement originally came with a straight-edged balance cock from the factory, perhaps I can keep it pretty original !? That would be nice .... that would be very very nice ! In fact that would be awesome :-d

Thank you all for your help and the valuable information ! :-!


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## skipvel

Hi. Any opinions on this one? Saw it locally, regular raketa perpetual calendar with a 2628H but with the tiger on the dial. Never saw one before so very cautious. Writing on front might say "Vladivostok" or "Lord of the East" or ?
Thanks for any help.


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## Kamburov

It does say VLADIVOSTOK, but I can't say anything else about it. Print looks legit, though.
Ivan


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## RobNJ

That's also the coat of arms of Vladivostok - so probably a commemorative watch Raketa did for some city function. I can't tell if the hour and minute hand look short or if that is merely an optical illusion caused by the lack of an inner ring of indices. They and the watch as a whole could be completely legit.


----------



## skipvel

RobNJ said:


> That's also the coat of arms of Vladivostok - so probably a commemorative watch Raketa did for some city function. I can't tell if the hour and minute hand look short or if that is merely an optical illusion caused by the lack of an inner ring of indices. They and the watch as a whole could be completely legit.


OK. That seems to make sense now. The rest of it looked right but there was no Raketa marking on it and I didn't know that was the coat of arms for Vladivostok. I'm thinking that it's fine and a perpetual calendar that I just hadn't seen before. Thanks guys.


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## Patski

I've been quiet lately, mostly because of renovations at home, but I recently found this one. . Looks quite interesting, but I can't see anything similar...


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## Chascomm

Patski said:


> I've been quiet lately, mostly because of renovations at home, but I recently found this one. . Looks quite interesting, but I can't see anything similar


Hardly surprising as the 2612.1 movement displays 12 hour time but this dial shows 24 hours. Thus the minute is pointed to quarter past, but the hour is at half past. Avoid it unless it is super cheap and you need the parts. In it's present state it is unusable.


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## Patski

Thanks alot! I will pass!


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## skipvel

Chascomm said:


> Hardly surprising as the 2612.1 movement displays 12 hour time but this dial shows 24 hours. Thus the minute is pointed to quarter past, but the hour is at half past. Avoid it unless it is super cheap and you need the parts. In it's present state it is unusable.


I think it is a 2812.1 but your observations are correct for that movement as well.


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## Patski

skipvel said:


> I think it is a 2812.1 but your observations are correct for that movement as well.


Looks like a 2812.1 yes


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## Jeroenskie

Hey guys, 

What do you think of this Okean? To mee it seems like the dial is original, with the second dial with blue all around it. The case also seems stainless steel to me. I know the case back is one of a Sturmanskie. But what do you think? Is it just a real Okean with a replaced case back or just a fake?

Cheers


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## Chascomm

skipvel said:


> I think it is a 2812.1 but your observations are correct for that movement as well.


Tell me more about the 2812. I'm not familiar with that movement.


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## Jeroenskie

Jeroenskie said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> What do you think of this Okean? To mee it seems like the dial is original, with the second dial with blue all around it. The case also seems stainless steel to me. I know the case back is one of a Sturmanskie. But what do you think? Is it just a real Okean with a replaced case back or just a fake?
> 
> Cheers


Anyone anything on the Okean situation? :-d


----------



## dutchassasin

Jeroenskie said:


> Anyone anything on the Okean situation? :-d


Well my advice would be to buy a better example. Okean casebacks are a pain in the butt to find. Expect to pay $100+ for one.
The big chrono hand is partially repainted, relumed at the 7 o clock position, inner bezel and hour hand. The relume doesnt match the colour which is kinda ugly if you ask me.

Keep in mind im no true expert on these. Dial seek ok, cant see if it stainless case and dont know anything about movement.


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## Jeroenskie

dutchassasin said:


> Well my advice would be to buy a better example. Okean casebacks are a pain in the butt to find. Expect to pay $100+ for one.
> The big chrono hand is partially repainted, relumed at the 7 o clock position, inner bezel and hour hand. The relume doesnt match the colour which is kinda ugly if you ask me.
> 
> Keep in mind im no true expert on these. Dial seek ok, cant see if it stainless case and dont know anything about movement.


Thanks a lot! I'll keep looking for one which has the right case back!

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONEPLUS A5000 met Tapatalk


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## Eric M

Friend was offered this in a local sale quite cheaply. Is it a correct dial/hands configuration? It was cheap enough to harvest for parts if needed.









Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


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## mariomart

Eric M said:


> Friend was offered this in a local sale quite cheaply. Is it a correct dial/hands configuration? It was cheap enough to harvest for parts if needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk


From what I can see it all looks good. Can't tell from the photo but the crown should have a dome if it's the original one, and the crystal should be a low profile dome that blends with the bezel.

There has never been an official catalog photo of this dial series in the Type 350 case, but I've seen enough of this exact configuration of dial, hands and bezel to say it was an official factory watch.


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## EndeavourDK

I'm a bit puzzled by what's going on with this watch / dial :think:

I bought the watch already and it's on its way, so the questions are more for my own education. 
The lume of the hands don't match the lume of the hour-markers. The seller confirms that the hour-markers do light up stronger than the hands, so clearly there is a mismatch.
Looking at the hour markers, if they are re-lumed, than to me the person who did it has done a great job. All the dots look equally round and of the same size.
What do the expert think? Are the hour-markers re-lumed or could they be original? Another question one could ask, since the lume of hands is (IMHO) more representative for a post-soviet watch, is the dial original or could it be a re-print?
As for the housing; if the dial-feet suite the 2-o-clock position of the movement, I guess there aren't that many other housing options ..... or are there?
Bezel; plausible ?
Thick date-font; plausible ?

Hope to hear your verdict ...... ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by what's going on with this watch / dial :think:
> 
> I bought the watch already and it's on its way, so the questions are more for my own education.
> The lume of the hands don't match the lume of the hour-markers. The seller confirms that the hour-markers do light up stronger than the hands, so clearly there is a mismatch.
> Looking at the hour markers, if they are re-lumed, than to me the person who did it has done a great job. All the dots look equally round and of the same size.
> What do the expert think? Are the hour-markers re-lumed or could they be original? Another question one could ask, since the lume of hands is (IMHO) more representative for a post-soviet watch, is the dial original or could it be a re-print?
> As for the housing; if the dial-feet suite the 2-o-clock position of the movement, I guess there aren't that many other housing options ..... or are there?
> Bezel; plausible ?
> Thick date-font; plausible ?
> 
> Hope to hear your verdict ...... ;-)


Another submarine :-d

Dial is obviously original and the lume looks to be original also, so it could be that the hands have been replaced at sometime with older hands with dead lume, the dial if held to the movement by it's original dial feet will authenticate the type of case it's in, a type 33 dial will only fit in a type 33 case!

The 'dot-dash' bezel is the one you'll see most often on a type 33 case and the thick date font I've seen on a few Soviet but more often on post-Soviet 90's Vostoks which yours obviously is, so I wouldn't worry at all...;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Another submarine :-d
> 
> Dial is obviously original and the lume looks to be original also, so it could be that the hands have been replaced at sometime with older hands with dead lume, the dial if held to the movement by it's original dial feet will authenticate the type of case it's in, a type 33 dial will only fit in a type 33 case!
> 
> The 'dot-dash' bezel is the one you'll see most often on a type 33 case and the thick date font I've seen on a few Soviet but more often on post-Soviet 90's Vostoks which yours obviously is, so I wouldn't worry at all...;-)


Yes, another  ..... It seems that I'm getting my "Sub-collection" complete ........ Haha; just kidding ! How can one say something like that with Russian watches ........ there is always a surprise waiting around the corner :-d

Anyway, that all sounds good! I've just to confirm that the dial-feet are original. The hands; well perhaps it gives me an opportunity to put some on who do actually give some light during the night. That's another thing I noticed since I started collecting the original CCCP, or from around that period ..... they are all pretty useless during the night :roll:

Even though this is not a CCCP dial, it is in very good condition and the price was very reasonable as well, considering one doesn't stumble over these dials daily ......

Thanks for your help and opinion ...... again ! :-!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Today, stripping a near mint or mint Albatross I noticed something unusual on the, what looks to me, untouched 2409 movement. At least I've never seen it before and thought to share this for educational purposes with people who also haven't seen this before ....
First picture of the watch; a CCCP Albatross with a 2409 movement in a 020 housing.
The second picture is of the partly stripped movement; nothing unusual to see.
However, tilting the movement shows a faint inscription on the train-bridge; seventeen Jewels, made in USSR (3rd & 4th picture).
Initially I thought about a kind of laser-burned inscription, but slightly rubbing a letter with some peg-wood and it rubs off.
The lettering seems to be an ink-print and it would not surprise me that the whole lettering disappears in the cleaning fluid. Perhaps that may be the reason that I've never seen it before :think:
Question is why written in English and does it match the CCCP dial?
Why this print and why not made lasting ?
So far I haven't discovered anything that anybody has been in the watch before me and so far nothing suggest that the whole watch isn't original.

Interesting; ....... for me at least .... ;-)


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## stevoe

EndeavourDK said:


> ...Interesting; ....... for me at least .... ;-)


I think you have a new hobby: watch forensics ;-)

Best wishes
Stephan


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## Avidfan

Often seen on Radio Room movements, worth keeping if you can... 

Here's the one on ill-phill's site: vostok-radio-room


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Often seen on Radio Room movements, worth keeping if you can...


Of course now I like to pick you brain for more ......... why specific Radio Room ? :roll:


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Of course now I like to pick you brain for more ......... why specific Radio Room ? :roll:


No idea , but I've also seen them on other Albatross a few times as well...


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Often seen on Radio Room movements, worth keeping if you can...
> 
> Here's the one on ill-phill's site: vostok-radio-room


The inscription on phill's site is much more clear. After your post I pulled the bridge out of the cleaning fluid and it was still on .... or at least it was 5 minutes ago :-d
I'll try to save it ..... ;-)
Thanks for the info ...... again ! :-!


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## alexir

A while since I posted... Just discovered a seller on eBay with a trove of NOS vostoks, wanted to share 6 of them to check if legit or not. Would appreciate your opinions and advice!


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## mariomart

alexir said:


> A while since I posted... Just discovered a seller on eBay with a trove of NOS vostoks, wanted to share 6 of them to check if legit or not. Would appreciate your opinions and advice!


From what I can see they all appear to be correct. The "sniper" dial model appears quite faded (the Orange highlights are tending more towards Yellow) and there appears to be a little fading on the dark faced model, but overall the conditions look good. You would have to check that the case-backs and movements are also correct, and that the anti-magnetic shields are included (the Neptune case should have an integrated shield built into the case-back.


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## EndeavourDK

@Mariomart; The fourth watch (black dial, Anti-magnetic); doesn't the lume of both hands looks "off"? :think:


----------



## mariomart

EndeavourDK said:


> @Mariomart; The fourth watch (black dial, Anti-magnetic); doesn't the lume of both hands looks "off"? :think:


Yes and No, it could be the way the photo is taken. It's hard to pass judgement when your allowable information is just a single photo.


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## EndeavourDK

It's not the best picture in the world, but is this considered to be a "banana" dial? Authentic / fake ?
I found a similar looking dial in the 1990 catalogue ....


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## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> It's not the best picture in the world, but is this considered to be a "banana" dial? Authentic / fake ?
> I found a similar looking dial in the 1990 catalogue ....


Not the banana dial, but still a legit one. The original blue color of this dial turns to golden colour, after years of exposure to sunlight and oxidation. Many examples of that transformation. I don't see the back of that watch, but from the front it looks the right combination.
Ivan


----------



## Bauta

EndeavourDK said:


> @Mariomart; The fourth watch (black dial, Anti-magnetic); doesn't the lume of both hands looks "off"? :think:


The lume dots looks like they might be "off". Not the best photo to judge, but maybe the watch is relumed?


----------



## Straight_time

Not the so-called Banana at all; the watch described in the catalog is exactly this model, whose dial, despite being described as "blue to light blue", is almost always to be found turned to brown/bronze even in close-to-NOS examples.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> Not the banana dial, but still a legit one. The original blue color of this dial turns to golden colour, after years of exposure to sunlight and oxidation. Many examples of that transformation. I don't see the back of that watch, but from the front it looks the right combination.
> Ivan


Thank you for your swift reply :-!
That is amazing, from blue to a golden color ..... never expected that !! I have to say, that has it charm too .....

Here is the back side ...... and if all is original, €23 doesn't seem to bad then ? :think:


----------



## EndeavourDK

Bauta said:


> The lume dots looks like they might be "off". Not the best photo to judge, but maybe the watch is relumed?


Yes, it is certainly not the best picture ....... but still to me the color of the hands- and hour dots-lume seem identical ..... for as far one can tell:think:


----------



## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> Thank you for your swift reply :-!
> That is amazing, from blue to a golden color ..... never expected that !! I have to say, that has it charm too .....
> 
> Here is the back side ...... and if all is original, €23 doesn't seem to bad then ? :think:


Only one thing bothers me. The original (catalogued) model is in a brushed steel case, this one is in a polished steel one. I missed that looking at it for the first time. Other members may advice if that case is plausible for this model. I'm not sure it is.
Ivan


----------



## Bauta

EndeavourDK said:


> Yes, it is certainly not the best picture ....... but still to me the color of the hands- and hour dots-lume seem identical ..... for as far one can tell:think:


The lume on the seconds hand looks a bit more aged than the rest of the lume.


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## stadiou

Just spotted this on e-bay . Dial looks too new Am i right in thinking this is a redial ?
eBay item number:183673407851


----------



## elsoldemayo

If fake Luch dials follow the same pattern as fake Poljot dials, then yes it's fake. The slashes should be straight edged rather than curved as on that dial.


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## EndeavourDK

stadiou said:


> Just spotted this on e-bay . Dial looks too new Am i right in thinking this is a redial ?
> eBay item number:183673407851


Reading this thread, there are quite a few of these dial examples being discussed. To start, have a look at;

Page 32 of this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-32.html
Page 42 of this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-42.html

and I'm sure if you continue reading, there are more ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Talking about dials ...... I received a watch today which had one of those "sticky" dials. I've seen similar dials before and start to wonder what's going on? It seems that the "varnish" either never hardened, or has gone soft in time? Everything on the dial, be it parts of broken off lume or small particles seems to sink in, trapped like animals in tar-sand.
The "varnish" (or whatever it may be?) seems original since the lume and letters/painting do sit on top of it :think:. The surface is extremely sensitive and it's very easy to mark the dial. I used a thin hard-plastic under-layer to protect the dial while lifting the hands, but that already was too much and some varnish got stuck to the plastic .... it seemed unavoidable :-(

As said, I've some other dials and I'm guessing all are of the same age, all having this sticky "varnish" ..... has anybody an explanation? Is there anything to do about?

What do the experts has to say :think:


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## thewatchadude

Not enough appropriate raw material was supplied under the plan so had to use the rest of bortsch from lunch time as thinner?


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## Avidfan

I've a few black dials like this from the same era with very thick soft black paint that has all sorts of debris and fibres in, possibly oil from the movement has gotten onto the dial around the centre hole and made it even softer :think:, but all I can say is 'don't touch', but I think you've found that out already :-(.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Spotted this Albatross, for sale in Italy. To my gianed knowledge it's a post-soviet, or rather from the transition period. Not sure about the case, a 020 or a 420, but if the 2416b automatic belongs in it, it may be a 420 (like the dessert storm watches)
The dial seems in very good condition (I asked the seller about the scratches around the 10-o-clock; dial or glass?) and it has a 2416b RUS movement.
I've been searching the internet but so far I haven't seen this dial in a 020/420 housing with a 2416b movement?
The watch with a similar dial (no-date window) featured in the 1993 Vostok catalogue sits in a 020 housing and has a 2409A movement.
Question is, it this a legit dial/housing/movement combination?
Does anybody notice anything else "off" ?
Hope to hear ...... ;-)

Thanks :-!


----------



## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> Spotted this Albatross, for sale in Italy. To my gianed knowledge it's a post-soviet, or rather from the transition period. Not sure about the case, a 020 or a 420, but if the 2416b automatic belongs in it, it may be a 420 (like the dessert storm watches)
> The dial seems in very good condition (I asked the seller about the scratches around the 10-o-clock; dial or glass?) and it has a 2416b RUS movement.
> I've been searching the internet but so far I haven't seen this dial in a 020/420 housing with a 2416b movement?
> The watch with a similar dial (no-date window) featured in the 1993 Vostok catalogue sits in a 020 housing and has a 2409A movement.
> Question is, it this a legit dial/housing/movement combination?
> Does anybody notice anything else "off" ?
> Hope to hear ...... ;-)
> 
> Thanks :-!


There isn't enough catalogue info on this, maybe one day such will appear out of nowhere.
I do have an oppinion, though, based on the white (shield/red star) dial model. The 2409 version is catalogued (as this 2409 albatros), but there are enough examples of date window 2416B models, cased in 420. So if there's a pattern, it points to 2416B/420 albatros versions. 
There must be NOS examples with papers out there, to prove or disprove this suggestion. As it happened with the titanium amfibia, about a week or two ago.
We'll wait and see. In the meantime I'm inclined to accept this combination as legit.
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Sounds like a good start ..... awaiting answers of the seller regarding those scratches. If they are on the glass, well .... I may pull the trigger


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Spotted this Albatross, for sale in Italy. To my gianed knowledge it's a post-soviet, or rather from the transition period. Not sure about the case, a 020 or a 420, but if the 2416b automatic belongs in it, it may be a 420 (like the dessert storm watches)
> The dial seems in very good condition (I asked the seller about the scratches around the 10-o-clock; dial or glass?) and it has a 2416b RUS movement.
> I've been searching the internet but so far I haven't seen this dial in a 020/420 housing with a 2416b movement?
> The watch with a similar dial (no-date window) featured in the 1993 Vostok catalogue sits in a 020 housing and has a 2409A movement.
> Question is, it this a legit dial/housing/movement combination?
> Does anybody notice anything else "off" ?
> Hope to hear ...... ;-)
> 
> Thanks :-!


I think there is a precedent for this being legitimate as there looks to be a 420/2416b Albatross with different dial on the front cover of the 1993 catalogue, I would call this post-Soviet rather than transitional (there is no mix of parts) and as such could have been made at anytime throughout the 1990's.

Even the Komandirskie bezel without lume could be correct depending on exactly when the watch was produced (but at least it's an old one).

This of course is all IMHO


----------



## EndeavourDK

The seller responded and unfortunately the scratches are on the dial :-( ..... I've to think a little ....... :think:


----------



## Kamburov

Avidfan said:


> I think there is a precedent for this being legitimate as there looks to be a 420/2416b Albatross with different dial on the front cover of the 1993 catalogue


Yes, that's the one I meant. There's mine repaired/restored one. Shot taken with a bezel mod, but lume dot one is back on it.








One thing I'm certain of, the date window albatros dial belongs in a steel case with 2416B SU. And here's at least one other albatros in a 420.
Ivan


----------



## Mr Kotsov

So, legit or franken for this?


----------



## haha

Mr Kotsov said:


> So, legit or franken for this?


(very) wrong hands.


----------



## Mr Kotsov

It’s funny - as soon as I posted the pic I noticed the lume and thought Ye Gods! Is it really wrong to still really like the look of it?!


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## Kamburov

Mr Kotsov said:


> So, legit or franken for this?


Agree with haha. I could search for the catalogue entry, but instead will post my dear late aunt's Vostok. I'm sure she didn't change anything on it.
Ivan


----------



## case93

Hi, I've seen another time a Copernicus like this on Ebay and I don't understand if it is franken or not


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## Eric M

Picked this up earlier this week. Does anyone know if this is a legitimate product and the approx era of production?









Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk


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## Avidfan

Still available new: https://meranom.com/en/amphibian-classic/vostok-watch-amphibian-classic-420007.html

Rare bezel though!

Comrade mroatman has the same bezel on a Neptune on his site: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/vostok?lightbox=dataltem-jg3i7ojk


----------



## Neruda

As your watch is not marked "made in USSR", it is post Soviet. Following the creation of the new Russia during the last days of 1991, most Vostok watches had no country of origin on the dial. Vostok seems to have applied "made in Russia" on dials from about 1995, or later perhaps if there was old stock in the factory.

At the end of the 1990s or the beginning of 2000, Vostok introduced a slight change in the hands of the watch - most noticable in the minute hand where the lume bar is shorter. Your watch has the older version with the lume bar extending almost to the tip.

I would give an approximate date of between 1995 and 2000, I don't think it can be narrowed down further.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Hello Experts;

I have this Komandirkie 34 case with (just happens to be) a serviced 2414 movement laying in my drawers. I like to add one of my spare dials to it; from the correct period that is.
However, this is (from what I understood) a "fat-case". Everything seems to be "fat" on this case; the body and bezel.
Could anybody give me please some more information from which period (if there is any) this case is? Were there any particular dials belonging to this case? Or any other information / history about this "fat"-case is very welcome ;-)
The color sequence on the bezel seems "special" too .... :think:

(Obviously I can change the 2414 movement to a 2409 movement of the correct period if required)


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Hello Experts;
> 
> I have this Komandirkie 34 case with (just happens to be) a serviced 2414 movement laying in my drawers. I like to add one of my spare dials to it; from the correct period that is.
> However, this is (from what I understood) a "fat-case". Everything seems to be "fat" on this case; the body and bezel.
> Could anybody give me please some more information from which period (if there is any) this case is? Were there any particular dials belonging to this case? Or any other information / history about this "fat"-case is very welcome ;-)
> The color sequence on the bezel seems "special" too .... :think:
> 
> (Obviously I can change the 2414 movement to a 2409 movement of the correct period if required)


I think these "fat" case type 34 are from the early years of production, approx. 1985-1987 and any of the type 34 dials shown in the 1990 Vostok catalogue would be appropriate as production in these years changed very little, the movement should be a 2414A and I've noted that they are often stamped "2414A SU".

This old thread is worth a read if you've not seen it before: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/type-34-ish-4486655.html

Also comrade Capannelle has a few of these "fat" type 34's on his site that are worth a look: Tipo 34X | Vostok Amphibia CCCP

Hope this helps a little...


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> I think these "fat" case type 34 are from the early years of production, approx. 1985-1987 and any of the type 34 dials shown in the 1990 Vostok catalogue would be appropriate as production in these years changed very little, the movement should be a 2414A and I've noted that they are often stamped "2414A SU".
> 
> This old thread is worth a read if you've not seen it before: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/type-34-ish-4486655.html
> 
> Also comrade Capannelle has a few of these "fat" type 34's on his site that are worth a look: Tipo 34X | Vostok Amphibia CCCP
> 
> Hope this helps a little...


And Yes Avidfan ! it does help a lot !! Is there actually anything you don't know or can't find :-s You seem like a walking Vostok encyclopedie ..... perhaps it gets time to write a Vostok reference-book? 

Interesting to see on comrade Capannelles website (and picture below) that not only the bezel on my case is correct, but also the color-scheme; red-black-red-black ...... very interesting !
It also seems to me that these fat-cases, corrosion wise, do withstand time, wear & tear better :think:

As for the dial; not in my spare-parts-department (read "drawer" ). Lucky me, they had another "Red October" which I haven't got yet (featured in the 34 case with the same bezel) ....... so the hunt is on !

Thanks a lot again :-!


----------



## EndeavourDK

I'm totally Confused !!
A transition zone (no "made in") Albatross in a 270 case with Komandirskie hands ........ at total Franken of legit?
Scanning eBay and internet I see both types of hands in Amphibian cases. Is it a Komandirskie Amphibian, a Amphibian Komandirskie or just a bastard between the two :-s
Hope for some clarity from the Experts ....


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I'm totally Confused !!
> A transition zone (no "made in") Albatross in a 270 case with Komandirskie hands ........ at total Franken of legit?
> Scanning eBay and internet I see both types of hands in Amphibian cases. Is it a Komandirskie Amphibian, a Amphibian Komandirskie or just a bastard between the two :-s
> Hope for some clarity from the Experts ....


AFAIK the 270 case is post-Soviet and does not feature in any of the known catalogues, a lot of strange combinations of parts were put together in the immediate post-Soviet era but without a passport it's often impossible to know for sure if such a watch is legitimate.

I guess you've seen this old thread before put I'll post a link just in case you haven't:https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/mystery-vostok-octagonal-case-not-470-looks-lot-like-100-but-has-18mm-lugs-2505754.html

As you can see on the link there's an example of a 270 with 2409A and passport, also on the thread is a 270 with 2416b, so a 270 with 2414A might also be a legitimate combination but again impossible to prove without papers.

As for hands they are usually of the Amphibia type on an Albatross, but like anything made at this time you can never be sure.

Hope this helps a little...


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> AFAIK the 270 case is post-Soviet and does not feature in any of the known catalogues, a lot of strange combinations of parts were put together in the immediate post-Soviet era but without a passport it's often impossible to know for sure if such a watch is legitimate.
> 
> I guess you've seen this old thread before put I'll post a link just in case you haven't:https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/mystery-vostok-octagonal-case-not-470-looks-lot-like-100-but-has-18mm-lugs-2505754.html
> 
> As you can see on the link there's an example of a 270 with 2409A and passport, also on the thread is a 270 with 2416b, so a 270 with 2414A might also be a legitimate combination but again impossible to prove without papers.
> 
> As for hands they are usually of the Amphibia type on an Albatross, but like anything made at this time you can never be sure.
> 
> Hope this helps a little...


Thanks again Avidfan :-!

Yes, I've seen that thread before in which this Amphibian case was baptiste as a 270; hence I knew its name ;-) Keen on getting a 270 case and the dial, I made the seller an offer. If the watch was a Franken, it had to be sorted out (this is included in the height of the offer). But as said, scanning the internet I found various combinations. Reading your answer that all makes sense; a lot combinations from around that period are plausible. If the seller accepts my offer, I've to see whether the lume on the Komandirskie hands matches the dial hour-markers lume. On the picture they seems a bit off and perhaps the lume-light-retention-test may reveal some additional clues :think:
If the seller take the bait, I'll report back ;-)

Thanks for your help !


----------



## thewatchadude

If I'm not mistaken I think there are several examples of 270 with 2414 with papers justifying their legitimacy. Those I (think I) have seen where scuba dude models.


----------



## EndeavourDK

thewatchadude said:


> If I'm not mistaken I think there are several examples of 270 with 2414 with papers justifying their legitimacy. Those I (think I) have seen where scuba dude models.


Thanks :-!
Whether it's a Franken or not, the seller accepted my offer 
Hopefully I get to see the watch in the not to far future and can perhaps find some more clues about how "original" it is :think:


----------



## thewatchadude

Found an unusual thing on the web :think:. What do the experts think?


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> Found an unusual thing on the web :think:. What do the experts think?


Here's the one on comrade mroatman's site:









It can also be found in the 2001 catalogue listed as a 589672 (follow Dashiell's link), but why the jewel count is 18 for a 2409A I've no idea :think:


----------



## EndeavourDK

Hello Experts;

Having two of these dials in green, I wouldn't mind the blue. There is also a black version out there ..... somewhere.
I asked the Italian seller before (the watch is now re-listed) whether the dial was re-lumed, but when the previous add nearly ran out of time, all I got back was that the dial was very nice :-s ..... 
Anyway, based on the poor pictures of his eBay add, I think it's re-lumed. I suspect the hour-hand has still the original lume. 
But, what do the experts say or think of it ??
Hope to hear .....


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Hello Experts;
> 
> Having two of these dials in green, I wouldn't mind the blue. There is also a black version out there ..... somewhere.
> I asked the Italian seller before (the watch is now re-listed) whether the dial was re-lumed, but when the previous add nearly ran out of time, all I got back was that the dial was very nice :-s .....
> Anyway, based on the poor pictures of his eBay add, I think it's re-lumed. I suspect the hour-hand has still the original lume.
> But, what do the experts say or think of it ??
> Hope to hear .....


It's often difficult to tell if the lume is original from poor seller photos and often you won't know until you have the watch in your hand, in this case I think you might be right, but it's all down to how much new lume you can live with :think:

And is that a Komandirskie bezel :think: it's hard to tell with all that glare on the photo :-d


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> It's often difficult to tell if the lume is original from poor seller photos and often you won't know until you have the watch in your hand, in this case I think you might be right, but it's all down to how much new lume you can live with :think:
> 
> And is that a Komandirskie bezel :think: it's hard to tell with all that glare on the photo :-d


Glad to hear your thoughts are the same ........ I'll rather wait for an untouched sample ;-)

BTW, talking about untouched ...... this one was !! It came today and of course, it's already totally apart and in the cleaning fluid  
Found the lume of the paddle second-hand on top of the calendar wheel. I had to prime the back-lid off. 
Not a single scratch inside; sinds the CCCP time totally untouched. Dial has some aging cracks, but apart from that it's mint :-! 
Doesn't happen that often b-)


----------



## skipvel

EndeavourDK said:


> Hello Experts;
> 
> Having two of these dials in green, I wouldn't mind the blue. There is also a black version out there ..... somewhere.
> I asked the Italian seller before (the watch is now re-listed) whether the dial was re-lumed, but when the previous add nearly ran out of time, all I got back was that the dial was very nice :-s .....
> Anyway, based on the poor pictures of his eBay add, I think it's re-lumed. I suspect the hour-hand has still the original lume.
> But, what do the experts say or think of it ??
> Hope to hear .....


I think I would be very wary of the ebay seller. Of 5 feedbacks; 2 are negative. Not the kind of odds I like to gamble on!


----------



## EndeavourDK

On my latest acquire, a CCCP Komandirskie, the paddle second hand seem to have a silver color. I've seen a CCCP Komandirskie with a "normal" (straight) silver color Komandirskie second hand before, but one with a silver color paddle second hand is new to me. The 1990-1991 catalogue doesn't provide a clear enough picture; it shows a paddle hand, but the color ?? 
Does the paddle silver second hand belong in this watch?
Hope to hear what the experts say?


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> On my latest acquire, a CCCP Komandirskie, the paddle second hand seem to have a silver color. I've seen a CCCP Komandirskie with a "normal" (straight) silver color Komandirskie second hand before, but one with a silver color paddle second hand is new to me. The 1990-1991 catalogue doesn't provide a clear enough picture; it shows a paddle hand, but the color ??
> Does the paddle silver second hand belong in this watch?
> Hope to hear what the experts say?


I wouldn't worry too much about seconds hands on Komandirskie's from this era, often Vostok put on what they had to hand making several acceptable variations.

Anyway from the 1990 catalogue


----------



## Avidfan

Double post.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Thanks Avidfan :-!

I later discovered that actually the front page of the 1991 catalogue shows a nearly similar dial. The red in the bezel is clearly to see, therefor one would assume that if the paddle second hand was red, it would show up on the picture as well ..........
I guess it's the silver color is as it should ...... b-)

Thanks again ;-)


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi all, what do you think of this one?


----------



## EndeavourDK

Interesting ...... :think:
I'm sure comrade Avidfan spots the differences if there are any  To me the gold-color second-hand seems off. I'm not sure about the hour-lume dots either ..... have a look at the previous page.


----------



## EndeavourDK

For sale, out of Ukraine. Seems like a very crispy dial ...... another dial to watch for :think: ?


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> Hi all, what do you think of this one?


I'm not sure about that one at all :-s

I can't find the exact dial in the usual catalogues but I'm pretty sure that it didn't start out in that type 34 case as I don't think I've ever seen a no-date Soviet Komandirskie.


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Interesting ...... :think:
> I'm sure comrade Avidfan spots the differences if there are any


Not always :-d



EndeavourDK said:


> For sale, out of Ukraine. Seems like a very crispy dial ...... another dial to watch for :think: ?


I think it's meant to be this one, but I think I 'd pass :-d


----------



## thewatchadude

thewatchadude said:


> Hi all, what do you think of this one?


To be honnest, this a watch I built from parts, before realizing this no date point. The dial came in in a beaten Neptune case but is in very good shape, so I strongly suspect it is a fake. I'll need to swap it for something more genuine. The case was filled with a transition Albatros Marine border patrol dial (2409 I think) which I recased in a 470. I subsequently found a real Albatros dial and a red-stamped mechanism to fully reconstitute the Albatros.


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> The dial came in in a beaten Neptune case but is in very good shape, so I strongly suspect it is a fake.


Probably why I can't find it in the catalogues :-d


----------



## thewatchadude

Sorry for the trick 
That was a fun way to get my doubts on this dial confirmed.


----------



## EndeavourDK

In January (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-227.html) I bought two Amphibians, 2409 movements in a 020 housing. Both looked untouched and in original condition. One of them had a dial picturing the Vostok sloop.

It wasn't until now that I came around to give the Vostok sloop some TLC. The dial was fine and the seemingly original hands were tight to get off, suggesting that they hadn't been removed for a long time, possibly never and still original factory fit.
To my surprise and disappointment I found a 2414 movement with the calendar works removed underneath the dial. A Franken ! :-(
Didn't think much further about it and serviced the movement; it ran fine. Since I didn't see the point to put a 2414 movement back underneath a dial without a date window, I decided to complete the 2414 movement with additional calendar parts.
Mounting the two stacked calendar wheels (which normally can turn free after tightening the screw) they became stuck when tightening the screw. Studying the why, it appeared that the screw hole had been deepened / chamfered by, what looks like a 90 degrees mill, making it impossible to mount the calendar wheels and by extension the calendar works.

Could this be a rejected 2414 main-plate, now used as a 2409 for a 2409 dial :-s

The mystery deepens as it appears that the main-plate has had a surface treatment after the hole had been chamfered. Clearly a factory manufacturing treatment.

While disassembling the watch, all indications were that the watch had never been disassembled. It therefor seems to me that this watch is not a Franken, as I initially thought after removing the dial, but that it has indeed left the factory with a calendar-less 2414 movement :think: :-s

The first two (sellers) pictures of the watch on offer. The third, fourth, fifth and last picture I zoom in from the top-view of the bare main-plate to the hole concerned and it is clear to see that the 45 degrees edges do have the same treated surfaces as the surroundings. If the chamfering would have happened after the surface treatment, there would have been rotational marks in the chamfered surfaces. This "chamfering" must have (mis?)happened during the manufacturing process and before the surface treatment.............

Has anybody seen this before? What do the expert think or make of this ??

Hope to hear your thoughts ........ ;-)


----------



## Neruda

It may be a reflection on your photos, however if the large ratchet wheel has a dimple (for want of a more precise term), I have only seen this feature on watches dating from the post-Soviet period.

Another anomally which has me confused is the lack of the Vostok "B" logo underneath the balance, again perhaps pointing to the 1990s.

I'm not 100% certain that either of these observations is definative, but might be worth considering.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Neruda said:


> It may be a reflection on your photos, however if the large ratchet wheel has a dimple (for want of a more precise term), I have only seen this feature on watches dating from the post-Soviet period.
> 
> Another anomally which has me confused is the lack of the Vostok "B" logo underneath the balance, again perhaps pointing to the 1990s.
> 
> I'm not 100% certain that either of these observations is definative, but might be worth considering.


Thank you for your answer and thoughts ;-)
Obviously I carefully studied the "chamfered"-hole with my eye loupes to make 100% sure that what I present here is "as it is". The trick is to capture that on pictures. I used multiple light sources to highlight the contours & texture of the surfaces (ruling out any coincident reflections) and I think that I managed to captured the reality quite well.

It is indeed hard to see on the picture with the complete movement, but the main-plate has the "B" stamped underneath the balance. As for the ratchet-wheel having a dimple, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on from which period that may be. The Vostok sloop watch is featured in the 1993 Vostok catalogue 2409A / 020683.


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## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Could this be a rejected 2414 main-plate, now used as a 2409 for a 2409 dial :-s


I think that's exactly what you've got! 

As for why I don't think you'll ever know for sure, but Vostok are known to have used the wrong parts on watches made during this era (early 90's) just to keep production going in what would have been difficult economic times.

As for the dimple on the ratchet wheel just flip it over so it's the right way up.


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> I think that's exactly what you've got!
> 
> As for why I don't think you'll ever know for sure, but Vostok are known to have used the wrong parts on watches made during this era (early 90's) just to keep production going in what would have been difficult economic times.
> 
> As for the dimple on the ratchet wheel just flip it over so it's the right way up.


Very interesting indeed !! For me this is just fascinating, to stumble over the odds. To do some detective work and "reveal" these "kinky" occasions.
That makes Russian watches so interesting and so colorful !
I'm very curious what's underneath the dial of the other watch I bought ... :think: Another "2409" surprise ? 

Thanks :-!


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## EndeavourDK

What is this !? :-s

Just offered on eBay as a Vostok Komandriskie MO CCCP.

I've not come across this type of 3AKA3 MO CCCP print, neither the "lume"-dots, the hands and the movement. 

In short; I'm in awe :think:


----------



## mariomart

EndeavourDK said:


> What is this !? :-s
> 
> Just offered on eBay as a Vostok Komandriskie MO CCCP.
> 
> I've not come across this type of 3AKA3 MO CCCP print, neither the "lume"-dots, the hands and the movement.
> 
> In short; I'm in awe :think:


Welcome to the wacky world of Chinese Fake Komandirskies :-! These fake watches appeared in the early 1990's and tried to capitalize on the "Fall of the Soviet Union" .


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## EndeavourDK

mariomart said:


> Welcome to the wacky world of Chinese Fake Komandirskies :-! These fake watches appeared in the early 1990's and tried to capitalize on the "Fall of the Soviet Union" .


I'm literally in awe !! ;-)


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## Neruda

When McDonalds opened it's first fast-food restaurant in Moscow in January 1990, they commissioned Hongkong-made fake Komandirskies with a special commemorative dial presumably as a freeby for their customers, either at the opening or to mark the first anniversary. However they also commissioned genuine Komandirskies which aparently were given to company executives in the USA!


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## frenchtreasure

EndeavourDK said:


> What is this !? :-s
> 
> Just offered on eBay as a Vostok Komandriskie MO CCCP.
> 
> I've not come across this type of 3AKA3 MO CCCP print, neither the "lume"-dots, the hands and the movement.
> 
> In short; I'm in awe :think:


Wow, that's a really ugly dial.

"17 KAMHEN" instead of "17 КАМНЕЙ", "Komandirskie" is written weirdly too... A true Abidas we have here


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## willjackson

Neruda said:


> When McDonalds opened it's first fast-food restaurant in Moscow in January 1990, they commissioned Hongkong-made fake Komandirskies with a special commemorative dial presumably as a freeby for their customers, either at the opening or to mark the first anniversary. However they also commissioned genuine Komandirskies which aparently were given to company executives in the USA!


The crown on mine seems better fitting than ones found on those Chinese counterfeits. The Micky D's one has a Japanese quartz movement. The original display package is nice, considering it not a Vostok and it is McDonalds. I still wear mine on fast food fridays, sometimes.









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## 24h

Missed opportunity. Could have written "MigDonalds" and featured Soviet MiG jets flying through the golden arches... :-d :-d


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## Straight_time

Neruda said:


> However they also commissioned genuine Komandirskies


And an Amphibia, too. ;-)


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## Straight_time

Neruda said:


> When McDonalds opened it's first fast-food restaurant in Moscow in January 1990, they commissioned Hongkong-made fake Komandirskies with a special commemorative dial presumably as a freeby for their customers, either at the opening or to mark the first anniversary. However they also commissioned genuine Komandirskies which aparently were given to company executives in the USA!


Forgive the dumb question, but... is there a documented proof around that these weird watches had actually been commissioned by McDonalds?
Personally, I find it odd that one of the biggest world corporations might have felt the need to cut production costs on a few hundreds items specifically meant to celebrate such a historic achievement... I am no expert in that field, but to me this would have looked like a marketing/PR suicide -and to save how much, 30, maybe 50 bucks on each?

Doesn't it seem more likely that those Komandirskie clones (by the way, do they really have a Japan movement inside, as claimed on the dial, or are they powered by the Chinese standard?) were counterfeited down to the McDonalds logo on the wooden boxes, rather than official releases? At least, this is my gut feeling... but of course I might be completely wrong.


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## willjackson

Straight_time said:


> Doesn't it seem more likely that those Komandirskie clones (by the way, do they really have a Japan movement inside, as claimed on the dial, or are they powered by the Chinese standard?) were counterfeited down to the McDonalds logo on the wooden boxes, rather than official releases? At least, this is my gut feeling... but of course I might be completely wrong.


When I originally received mine over 2 years ago, I eagerly emailed McDonalds corporate and questioned this logo merchandise. I am still waiting....

Mine has a Japanese 1 jewel Miyota movement.

My opinion, I don't believe it's an authentic McDonald's promotional item and it's no dirskie. I have an example of the Chinese counterfeit seen all over Ebay and my opinion is that the two watches were made by different organizations. 









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## EndeavourDK

willjackson said:


> The crown on mine seems better fitting than ones found on those Chinese counterfeits. The Micky D's one has a Japanese quartz movement. The original display package is nice, considering it not a Vostok and it is McDonalds. I still wear mine on fast food fridays, sometimes.


Your Vostok imitation watch, the CCCP/McDonalds leather strap, the nice wooden box and the story about this one-off MacDonalds opening event in Moscow makes it, in its own right, a very collectable watch IMHO :-!


----------



## Neruda

Straight_time said:


> Forgive the dumb question, but... is there a documented proof around that these weird watches had actually been commissioned by McDonalds?
> Personally, I find it odd that one of the biggest world corporations might have felt the need to cut production costs on a few hundreds items specifically meant to celebrate such a historic achievement... I am no expert in that field, but to me this would have looked like a marketing/PR suicide -and to save how much, 30, maybe 50 bucks on each?
> 
> Doesn't it seem more likely that those Komandirskie clones (by the way, do they really have a Japan movement inside, as claimed on the dial, or are they powered by the Chinese standard?) were counterfeited down to the McDonalds logo on the wooden boxes, rather than official releases? At least, this is my gut feeling... but of course I might be completely wrong.


Straight_time, You may well be right - or partially right! I've never seen any reference to documentation from Mcdonalds. Most of these "alternative" Mcdonalds watches seem to be of reasonable quality, at least slightly superior to the obvious Chinese fakes.

Additionally, there are several variants so some may be genuine Mcdonalds promotional items while others may be knock-offs. The queues of people outside the Moscow Mcdonalds when it first opened were phenomenal, so perhaps street sellers sold fakes?

Versions I have seen include quartz movements from Japan, one marked "Swiss movement" although no information on what's inside, quartz mechanical etc. but presuably assembled outside Switzerland, some with mechanical movements marked inside the caseback with the name of a Hongkong export company, and others aparently unmarked with possibly Chinese clones of Russian (Slava?) mechanical movements.

Additionally wooden presentation boxes and straps bear a close similarity to export Vostoks sold in Italy during this period. It seems the consensus is that these straps and boxes are probably Italian. This suggests the intriguing posibility that a least some of these watches were commissioned from a variety of sources either by Mcdonalds in Italy or an Italian PR company working for McDonalds.


----------



## getonbored

I found a post selling a Raketa Big Zero, and the hands, case, and crystal look original. The crown looks like it peeks out just a littleeee further than the references I use on the Watches of the USSR site, and the dial looks printed to me instead of applied. Thoughts?


----------



## elsoldemayo

getonbored said:


> I found a post selling a Raketa Big Zero, and the hands, case, and crystal look original. The crown looks like it peeks out just a littleeee further than the references I use on the Watches of the USSR site, and the dial looks printed to me instead of applied. Thoughts?


Even before reading your own comments, I was thinking the dial looked printed. I'd go with your instinct and keep looking.


----------



## Straight_time

Neruda said:


> Additionally wooden presentation boxes and straps bear a close similarity to export Vostoks sold in Italy during this period. It seems the consensus is that these straps and boxes are probably Italian. This suggests the intriguing posibility that a least some of these watches were commissioned from a variety of sources either by Mcdonalds in Italy or an Italian PR company working for McDonalds.


I am not so deep into this matter to be able to confirm or refute these theories with strong evidences, but I would like to remark that McDonalds opened their first restaurant in Italy only in 1986, and in 1990 ran a total of *8*(*): so I hardly believe that such a tiny local subsidiary might have been involved at any level in the Moscow opening... :think:

(*) for comparison: the main fast food chain of that era, an all-Italian company acquired by McDonalds in 1996, had *80* restaurants.


----------



## getonbored

I can't seem to find these two watch styles anywhere on the forum, so I am not sure about them. Crown, hands, dial, they need someone with an expert eye!

All I can say is all three have the exact same movement, hands, and date style. Also they are in Russian instead of "Made in USSR", so presumable before the 1990's. Take a look, only one pic for the movement since it's identical on all three.


----------



## Chascomm

Neruda said:


> Versions I have seen include quartz movements from Japan, one marked "Swiss movement" although no information on what's inside, quartz mechanical etc. but presuably assembled outside Switzerland, some with mechanical movements marked inside the caseback with the name of a Hongkong export company, and others aparently unmarked with possibly Chinese clones of Russian (Slava?) mechanical movements.


As far as I am aware, the last time a clone of a Soviet watch movement was developed in China was in 1960 with the 1MChZ 2408 clone Liaoning SL-1.

If we're talking about Hong Kong in the 1980s, remember that the supply of 1-jewel pin-lever movements from Switzerland collapsed in the first half of the decade and the Hong Kong industry often made up the difference with fully-jewelled Soviet movements for a few years until China's new economic policies opened up availability of Chinese movements for the first time.


----------



## Chascomm

mariomart said:


> Welcome to the wacky world of Chinese Fake Komandirskies :-! These fake watches appeared in the early 1990's and tried to capitalize on the "Fall of the Soviet Union" .


...but on the positive side, the watch appears to be fitted with one genuine Vostok springbar :-!


----------



## Chascomm

Straight_time said:


> Forgive the dumb question, but... is there a documented proof around that these weird watches had actually been commissioned by McDonalds?
> Personally, I find it odd that one of the biggest world corporations might have felt the need to cut production costs on a few hundreds items specifically meant to celebrate such a historic achievement... I am no expert in that field, but to me this would have looked like a marketing/PR suicide -and to save how much, 30, maybe 50 bucks on each?


Is McDonalds commonly in the habit of producing merchandise of the quality of a Vostok Komandirskie? Surely a budget quartz watch is far more their style.

I don't understand why you think that it would be "marketing/PR suicide" for McDonalds in 1990 to order production of a cheap homage to the then legendary 'Red Army watch' to commemorate the opening of their first store in the USSR? Given how much merchandise they would already be ordering from Hong Kong manufacturers, it would surely be easier to get a quartz watch made with the distinctive appearance of the Komandirskie, rather than ordering the quantities they needed for global distribution from Vostok.

Do we know what the McDonalds watch was worth when new?


> Doesn't it seem more likely that those Komandirskie clones were counterfeited down to the McDonalds logo on the wooden boxes, rather than official releases?


Why is it more likely? Surely there is more money to be made in counterfeiting Soviet army watches than in inventing a fictitious McDonalds promotional item?


> by the way, do they really have a Japan movement inside, as claimed on the dial, or are they powered by the Chinese standard?


All McDonalds-signed, non-Vostok, Komandirskie-style watches that have ever been seen on this forum have been powered by Japanese quartz movements.


----------



## Straight_time

Chascomm said:


> Is McDonalds commonly in the habit of producing merchandise of the quality of a Vostok Komandirskie? Surely a budget quartz watch is far more their style.


I'm no expert of McDonalds' habits, but I can't help noticing how as a matter of fact they commissioned to Vostok a far more expensive all-steel Amphibia to celebrate the first anniversary of the Moscow restaurant -an event which in my view should rank a step below a Grand Opening.



> I don't understand why you think that it would be "marketing/PR suicide" for McDonalds in 1990 to order production of a cheap homage to the then legendary 'Red Army watch' to commemorate the opening of their first store in the USSR?


Because genuine Komandirskies had never been high-end watches, so in my view (again, just my opinion of course) a cheap "homage" to an already cheap watch makes a multibillionaire corporation look very cheap, too.



> Given how much merchandise they would already be ordering from Hong Kong manufacturers, it would surely be easier to get a quartz watch made with the distinctive appearance of the Komandirskie, rather than ordering the quantities they needed for global distribution from Vostok.


Which quantities are we talking about, exactly? 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but _"All McDonalds-signed, non-Vostok, Komandirskie-style watches that have ever been seen on this forum"_ amount actually to a handful of pieces, so either A) despite their unquestionable marketing appeal they had been trashed for the vast majority, or B) production figures weren't that big after all.

As far as distribution is involved, please refer to my previous post... by early '90s McDonalds were still at the beginning of their worldwide expansion, so in this specific case "global" most likely could refer to "the US and the USSR" only.

Anyway, these are just my free thoughts. ;-)


----------



## getonbored

I'll try one more time, I know these might be hard to identify.

I can't seem to find these two watch styles anywhere on the forum, so I am not sure about them. Crown, hands, dial, they need someone with an expert eye!

All I can say is all three have the exact same movement, hands, and date style. Also they are in Russian instead of "Made in USSR", so presumable before the 1990's. Take a look, only one pic for the movement since it's identical on all three.


----------



## RobNJ

I think all three are good, except possibly for the crown on the second one (which seems larger; it could just be the angle). The red lollipop seconds hand really makes these!


----------



## Kamburov

getonbored said:


> I'll try one more time, I know these might be hard to identify.
> 
> I can't seem to find these two watch styles anywhere on the forum, so I am not sure about them. Crown, hands, dial, they need someone with an expert eye!
> 
> All I can say is all three have the exact same movement, hands, and date style. Also they are in Russian instead of "Made in USSR", so presumable before the 1990's. Take a look, only one pic for the movement since it's identical on all three.


"Made in Russia" means mid to late 90s. These models are not catalogued, I think, but not exactly rare. All seem consistent with other encountered watches. RobNJ is correct, the crown on the second one looks non Slava (Vostok 2209 I think), the others look like Slava. 
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Dear Experts;

I'm trying to find out more about this watch, what is original, what perhaps may be original or what isn't original? It was sold as used, but in the text described as NOS.

What do I know;
Asking the seller: the Italian seller bought more watches in a "lot" from a man who used to do import & export between USA and the USSR in the 1980/1990's. The seller doesn't know whether the packaging; the box and the "passport", belongs to the watch .... it may be, but he doesn't know for sure.
The seller says that the watch is new and he thinks that the bezel and back-lid are original.

Comparing this watch with the bigger collectors, it seems that most of these Treptower monument watches do have a black bezel and a similar but numbered back-lid. However, I've seen some Treptower on the internet, seemingly in mint condition, with the same Komandirskie bezel and other commemorative watches from that period with the same un-numbered back-lid.
The watch is now in transit and from the sellers pictures I can see that the "passport" reads: 1989, case/dial type: 341432

My questions are:

- is the watch fully original, including bezel & back-lid?
- is there a possibility that the passport and box could belong to the watch ?

Hope to hear your verdict ... ;-)


----------



## Straight_time

IMHO:
- the caseback style is consistent with the watch (have no explanation about random presence/lack of numbering, though); 
- both bezels should be correct too, as it's proven (by some NOS examples with matching papers in my collection) that sometimes even catalogued models of that era were fitted with more than just one style;
- the paper box is specifically made for the Italian market (U.R.S.S. = _Unione delle Repubbliche Socialiste Sovietiche_);
- the passport looks like an export, simplified version (similar to those accompanying the RadioRoom, for instance), and AFAIK is consistent with the watch. As you will surely have already checked yourself, 341432 is a reference which doesn't appear on any catalog; it would be great if another example with papers pops up as a further confirmation, but in the meantime (unless upon examination you can determine otherwise) I believe we should assume it's genuine.

Needless to say, great catch. :-!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Straight_time said:


> IMHO:
> - the caseback style is consistent with the watch (have no explanation about random presence/lack of numbering, though);
> - both bezels should be correct too, as it's proven (by some NOS examples with matching papers in my collection) that sometimes even catalogued models of that era were fitted with more than just one style;
> - the paper box is specifically made for the Italian market (U.R.S.S. = _Unione delle Repubbliche Socialiste Sovietiche_);
> - the passport looks like an export, simplified version (similar to those accompanying the RadioRoom, for instance), and AFAIK is consistent with the watch. As you will surely already checked yourself, 341432 is a reference which doesn't appear on any catalog; it would be great if another example with papers pops up as a further confirmation, but in the meantime (unless upon examination you can determine otherwise) I believe we should assume it's genuine.
> 
> Needless to say, great catch. :-!


That is all great new and to be honest I didn't expect such an answer 

The eBay add wasn't clear, the passport wasn't fully shown and there was no mention of that the whole set was a genuine combination. This was later confirmed by the seller that he wasn't sure, apart from that the watch was new.

If (perhaps all by coincident / stoke of luck) it is all genuine and a complete set; the watch, the box and the passport then, considering the price I paid, it is IMHO indeed a fantastic catch !
Being relative new to the game I've no idea how "rare" these Treptower watches are in this condition (?), but even if they aren't that "rare", I really like it 
Also, as comrade Mariomart once pointed out to me, we often don't take the value of the leather strap into consideration, but they cost too! It's only a few weeks ago since I received a watch with one of these Italian Boctok CCCP leather straps and I have to say that they are really of great "old-fashion" quality. With great certainty they are made out of vegetable tanned Italian leather.

Thank you very much for your input :-!


----------



## mariomart

EndeavourDK said:


> That is all great new and to be honest I didn't expect such an answer
> 
> The eBay add wasn't clear, the passport wasn't fully shown and there was no mention of that the whole set was a genuine combination. This was later confirmed by the seller that he wasn't sure, apart from that the watch was new.
> 
> If (perhaps all by coincident / stoke of luck) it is all genuine and a complete set; the watch, the box and the passport then, considering the price I paid, it is IMHO indeed a fantastic catch !
> Being relative new to the game I've no idea how "rare" these Treptower watches are in this condition (?), but even if they aren't that "rare", I really like it
> Also, as comrade Mariomart once pointed out to me, we often don't take the value of the leather strap into consideration, but they cost too! It's only a few weeks ago since I received a watch with one of these Italian Boctok CCCP leather straps and I have to say that they are really of great "old-fashion" quality. With great certainty they are made out of vegetable tanned Italian leather.
> 
> Thank you very much for your input :-!


The Italian market did require a little more flair than the typical Vostok market. They came out with some lovely marketing and presentation ideas.

One of my favorites is the Komandirskie leather belt watch holder :-!

Here is one of mine with matching paperwork and holder, simply wonderful


----------



## getonbored

I was interested in getting a Poljot alarm watch, since the alarm complication is generally EXPENSIVE on a new watch from the likes of the Swiss. I was shocked to see it under $100. Shook, even. This one seems to be in good condition, other shots show the crowns and such are in great condition/are original.

My concern are the hands, since the only "reference" picture I found of this watch style had flat black hands. Thoughts?


----------



## hks3sgte

Just picked this up. Haven't seen an 020 case with that dial before but thought it looked nice enough to purchase. What stands out to you guys? I like the CCCP caseback but not liking the dial print alignment at 6'oclock. Let me know.


----------



## 24h

getonbored said:


> I was interested in getting a Poljot alarm watch, since the alarm complication is generally EXPENSIVE on a new watch from the likes of the Swiss. I was shocked to see it under $100. Shook, even. This one seems to be in good condition, other shots show the crowns and such are in great condition/are original.
> 
> My concern are the hands, since the only "reference" picture I found of this watch style had flat black hands. Thoughts?


Only version of this watch I noticed is from the 1992 catalog.
I can't comment on the hands, but it's weird that the English version has Arabic numerals and Cyrillic version has Roman numerals.
Yours seems to be a mix of both.


----------



## getonbored

That catalogue is INSANELY USEFUL. Thank you sensei.


----------



## Chascomm

I don't know about the USA connection in the story. To my eyes, this looks like an Italian market model.


----------



## Eric M

getonbored said:


> I was interested in getting a Poljot alarm watch, since the alarm complication is generally EXPENSIVE on a new watch from the likes of the Swiss. I was shocked to see it under $100. Shook, even. This one seems to be in good condition, other shots show the crowns and such are in great condition/are original.
> 
> My concern are the hands, since the only "reference" picture I found of this watch style had flat black hands. Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 13992787


The Poljot alarms are generally pretty inexpensive. The other affordable options are the Schild powered alarms from the 50s-70s. Only the Vulcain and JLC alarms tend to get super expensive.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


----------



## hks3sgte

hks3sgte said:


> Just picked this up. Haven't seen an 020 case with that dial before but thought it looked nice enough to purchase. What stands out to you guys? I like the CCCP caseback but not liking the dial print alignment at 6'oclock. Let me know.


bumping this since my images weren't initially loading.


----------



## 24h

hks3sgte said:


> bumping this since my images weren't initially loading.


Still can't see your embedded images, that's probably why no one has responded.
Imgur tends to refuse connection when their images are hotlinked. You can upload the images directly from your computer to the forum.

hks3sgte's images:
http://i.imgur.com/7Bbo5Oh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UtbtxDA.jpg


----------



## Straight_time

hks3sgte said:


> bumping this since my images weren't initially loading.


Thanks 24h for linking the pics.

Genuine model 020481 as seen on the 1993 catalog; the curved lines connecting the indexes were originally pink/red and have simply faded to grey with time and exposure to sunlight.


----------



## hks3sgte

Straight_time said:


> Thanks 24h for linking the pics.
> 
> Genuine model 020481 as seen on the 1993 catalog; the curved lines connecting the indexes were originally pink/red and have simply faded to grey with time and exposure to sunlight.


Thank you! Was the minute hand also pink?


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Hello dear friends,
I found this Explorer kind of a watch from Vostok and was wondering if its legit. I saw at least two of them lately but thats it. Do you know anything.about it? Is it original? 
Thank you and I hope you all have a great weekend!

View attachment 13997699


----------



## capannelle

It is legit!

From 1976 catalog


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## mariomart

Andrei Mihaila said:


> Hello dear friends,
> I found this Explorer kind of a watch from Vostok and was wondering if its legit. I saw at least two of them lately but thats it. Do you know anything.about it? Is it original?
> Thank you and I hope you all have a great weekend!


I suspect that the case, crown and second hand are incorrect.


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## Kamburov

Agree with Mario, the case is deffinately wrong. Capannelle posted the right catalogue refference, but that's a different case. The catalogue one has is flat at the bezel area (round the crystal). 
Shame, really, as it's a beautiful watch. And the propper case is not that rare.
Ivan


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Thank you for all the answers. I suspected that the crown is not correct because theres a little gap between it and the case and that started the questions. I've seen others (after I posted) with a white seconds hand but i guess thats not correct either.


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

I found another one, here the lettering looks crisper and better made but the lume on the hands looks strange like it had moisture? Maybe this one is original? I really **** the styling and this one is pretty cheap.


----------



## capannelle

Probably this watch was first produced with case 401 and then with case 931.

Even the 530 dial was produced with the same two cases but in a golden version

403530 (From 1977 catalog)









933530 (From 1893 catalog)


----------



## Kamburov

I believe the stndard white (no arrow) seconds hand is right or both 1976 ctlogue models (2209 and 2214). The older models are in different case and arrow pointed seconds hands. Both of the bove watches are in wrong cases.
I'm still missing the date 2214 model from 1976.
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

capannelle said:


> Probably this watch was first produced with case 401 and then with case 931.
> 
> Even the 530 dial was produced with the same two cases but in a golden version
> 
> 403530 (From 1977 catalog)
> 
> View attachment 14000185
> 
> 
> 933530 (From 1893 catalog)
> 
> View attachment 14000187


You have a point, maybe they were produced in both cases. No catalogue refference in the later case, though. We can only guess.
Ivan


----------



## mariomart

Kamburov said:


> I believe the stndard white (no arrow) seconds hand is right or both 1976 ctlogue models (2209 and 2214). The older models are in different case and arrow pointed seconds hands. Both of the bove watches are in wrong cases.
> I'm still missing the date 2214 model from 1976.
> Ivan


Here's mine, with the case not shown in catalogs, but with enough evidence from other forum posts and members that this case is also correct (unfortunately the condition of the case is not to my liking, but I'm still looking for a replacement).


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Ok, I decided thats a beautiful watch, I have to start searching for an original one.
Great read guys as always, thanks.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Just to come briefly back on the Ballerina dial.
It looks indeed like that the dial has had two lume jobs. However, the smaller hour dots seem (nearly, if not) identical in color / structure and composition as the bigger-dots underneath. It is as if it is the same lume :think:
Wierd :roll: (perhaps Russian humor ?  )
Anyway, it looks good and decided to leave it as is ...

I had a nice new Komandirskie 81 case, which I thought she would feel home in. However, the seller didn't mention (know?) that the dial was for a crown @ 2-o-clock case ..... I prefer & currently sourcing a complete gold-colored 33 case in nice condition.

We can't leave here in the cold :-d


----------



## Djokit

I'd love a soviet-era Raketa Copernic but I've never bought a watch from ebay and doing so from eastern Europe is not helping me overcome my doubts.
I've found one which seems to tick all the box I believe need to be checked for authenticity: 2609.NP movement, flat crystal, hands look like the real deal. Does anything seem fishy about this specimen for specialists out there?























It seems to be in very good condition too, I'm ready to descend upon it like the mighty eagle on the frightened rabbit, but I'd like a confirmation.


----------



## RobNJ

You have a "Russia" dial with an "SU"-marked movement, but that isn't unusual for transition-period (1992-95 or so) watches, and in particular it doesn't seem unusual for Koperniks, which may well have absorbed an overstock of NP movements. Your movement is also marked on the ratchet wheel rather than the main bridge; the latter seems more common but I don't know if the difference dates the movement in any way. To me, it seems good.


----------



## EndeavourDK

I wouldn't mind trying to restore this one, but I've no idea whether the hands/case/crown etc are correct ?
Also no idea whether it's a paper-dial and what can be saved about that? 
I'm not worried about the movement, I've plenty of parts in the drawer. It's claimed to be a runner.

Has anybody some idea's, remarks, suggestions etc ?


----------



## RobNJ

I can't find it, but it does look like a Vostok handset, and the dark gray seconds with the silver hour/minute hands doesn't bother me too much. The crown and case are plausible as well. I doubt it is a paper dial because of the raised numerals; I do wonder whether the red star was original or is something painted or applied by the owner, but the latter would also not be a detriment to me. If you think you can make headway on that case, and it isn't too expensive, I'd say go for it.


----------



## EndeavourDK

RobNJ said:


> I can't find it, but it does look like a Vostok handset, and the dark gray seconds with the silver hour/minute hands doesn't bother me too much. The crown and case are plausible as well. I doubt it is a paper dial because of the raised numerals; I do wonder whether the red star was original or is something painted or applied by the owner, but the latter would also not be a detriment to me. If you think you can make headway on that case, and it isn't too expensive, I'd say go for it.


Thank you for your reply :-!

Could you please elaborate on the following two? I would very much appreciate that ;-)

"the dark gray seconds with the silver hour/minute hands doesn't bother me too much" meaning that it doesn't disturb you in the sense that it's okay to look at them, or it's a plausible combination regarding originality and hence I don't "stumble" over them?

"Headway on the case" meaning to restore it to a better condition or this case isn't the original, but perhaps you can find the original?

I don't know the price yet, shipping is already $12 so my offer for the watch won't be high ;-)


----------



## RobNJ

The first, simply that I think it is impossible to decide whether the second hand is/was: a) originally silver, like the hour/minute, and has simply discolored differently; b) originally a non-matching color, black or gray; or c) has been replaced. But even if it has been replaced, it has been replaced with a second hand that looks to me like a legitimate Vostok hand. So the entire hand set is plausibly original to me, albeit with a bit more hesitation on the second hand.

By headway on the case, I meant your restoration - just that it is in the worst shape of all the major parts of the watch. What are you thinking - refinish it? Leave it as is for an extensively weathered look?

For $12, you can't go far wrong - that's about a beer in Copenhagen if I recall correctly.


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I wouldn't mind trying to restore this one, but I've no idea whether the hands/case/crown etc are correct ?
> Also no idea whether it's a paper-dial and what can be saved about that?
> I'm not worried about the movement, I've plenty of parts in the drawer. It's claimed to be a runner.
> 
> Has anybody some idea's, remarks, suggestions etc ?


This seems to be it in the 1977 Vostok catalogue: (the 401529)


----------



## EndeavourDK

RobNJ said:


> The first, simply that I think it is impossible to decide whether the second hand is/was: a) originally silver, like the hour/minute, and has simply discolored differently; b) originally a non-matching color, black or gray; or c) has been replaced. But even if it has been replaced, it has been replaced with a second hand that looks to me like a legitimate Vostok hand. So the entire hand set is plausibly original to me, albeit with a bit more hesitation on the second hand.
> 
> By headway on the case, I meant your restoration - just that it is in the worst shape of all the major parts of the watch. What are you thinking - refinish it? Leave it as is for an extensively weathered look?
> 
> For $12, you can't go far wrong - that's about a beer in Copenhagen if I recall correctly.


Well, $12 was just the postage ....... not quite sure if he like to give the watch for free :think:

To be honest, it was 1994 since I bought my last draft beer here in DK. Can't remember the price back then, but for sure it wasn't cheap. Also in that period they still had "prohibition" in Sweden, "forcing" the Swedish to cross the ferry to Copenhagen and get tanked up (read: absolutely totally soaked) before sailing back :-d
A 0.33 Ltr tin of lager 4.5% (Tuborg / Carlsberg) cost now $1 in a supermarket. Stronger beers cost substantially more.

I've just seen Avidfan post ........ so it's a fantasy dial !

This is the lot offer ..... he asks $12 and $12 shipping ....... not so sure anymore :think:


----------



## schieper

That top left one is realy nice. I like that. 


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


----------



## EndeavourDK

schieper said:


> That top left one is realy nice. I like that.
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


I did sent you a PM with the link to the add ......... if you like, go for it ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

A bit more then a week ago I bought this brand new Vostok Treptower momument watch. On hindsight it is to see on the sellers pictures, but it's covered by the shade (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-246.html)
Mainly around the right-hand side, around the date-window and some at the bottom and further around the edges; the dial has gone darker (?)

With the highest amplitude reaching just 200 degrees, the movement needed a service so I could have a close look at the dial. I attempted to carefully "wash" the discoloring away, but it seems to be below the impeccable* varnish layer. (*there is one very small imperfection).
It was pretty evident that the watch was "brand"-new and had never been opened.

I considered the possibility that the watch could have been hot, perhaps had some fire-damage, but the varnish shows no signs that it has melted in any shape or form. It is mostly dark at the edges (and around the edges of the date-window) and it slowly fades away toward the center.
For sure, there is nothing I can do about it without doing any damage to the dail. The dial is just perfect and the discoloring seems to come from "deep".

Just wondering whether people have seen this before? Is it a known discoloring phenomena / pattern?

Hope to hear ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> A bit more then a week ago I bought this brand new Vostok Treptower momument watch. On hindsight it is to see on the sellers pictures, but it's covered by the shade (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-246.html)
> Mainly around the right-hand side, around the date-window and some at the bottom and further around the edges; the dial has gone darker (?)
> 
> With the highest amplitude reaching just 200 degrees, the movement needed a service so I could have a close look at the dial. I attempted to carefully "wash" the discoloring away, but it seems to be below the impeccable* varnish layer. (*there is one very small imperfection).
> It was pretty evident that the watch was "brand"-new and had never been opened.
> 
> I considered the possibility that the watch could have been hot, perhaps had some fire-damage, but the varnish shows no signs that it has melted in any shape or form. It is mostly dark at the edges (and around the edges of the date-window) and it slowly fades away toward the center.
> For sure, there is nothing I can do about it without doing any damage to the dail. The dial is just perfect and the discoloring seems to come from "deep".
> 
> Just wondering whether people have seen this before? Is it a known discoloring phenomena / pattern?
> 
> Hope to hear ;-)


I wouldn't worry about it at all, old paint and lacquer on dials slowly decays through time and with this decay comes all sorts of strange colour changes to the paint and lacquer, it's highly unlikely it's due to fire damage as there would be other external damage to the watch.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> I wouldn't worry about it at all, old paint and lacquer on dials slowly decays through time and with this decay comes all sorts of strange colour changes to the paint and lacquer, it's highly unlikely it's due to fire damage as there would be other external damage to the watch.


Thanks Avidfan :-!

Yes, as I said, it seems to come from "deep". The lacquer surface is just perfect; nice shiny, smooth, equally thick, undisturbed and ..... now I'm running out of my English vocabulary. Let's keep it with "just-perfect" 

I have to say, it does give the dial some kind of "war-edge" :-d

Anyway, after the service the movement runs as new, amplitude 280 - 300 degrees, beat-error 0.0ms in all positions b-)


----------



## mariomart

EndeavourDK said:


> Thanks Avidfan :-!
> 
> Yes, as I said, it seems to come from "deep". The lacquer surface is just perfect; nice shiny, smooth, equally thick, undisturbed and ..... now I'm running out of my English vocabulary. Let's keep it with "just-perfect"
> 
> I have to say, it does give the dial some kind of "war-edge" :-d
> 
> Anyway, after the service the movement runs as new, amplitude 280 - 300 degrees, beat-error 0.0ms in all positions b-)


Vostok was well ahead of the curve when it come to the use of "Chromatic Paint" on their dials ;-) lol


----------



## EndeavourDK

Interesting "Diver" :think:
Spot the differences ..... 

Bidding goes "banana's" :-!


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Interesting "Diver" :think:
> Spot the differences .....
> 
> Bidding goes "banana's" :-!


Lots of useful parts, but a dire franken :-d


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Lots of useful parts, but a dire franken :-d


I'm learning from you ;-) :-!


----------



## PanKorop

Avidfan said:


> Lots of useful parts, but a dire franken :-d


Right: like, some around here could kill for that teal dial with date window frame...


----------



## 24h

PanKorop said:


> Right: like, some around here could kill for that teal dial with date window frame...


----------



## Avidfan

PanKorop said:


> Right: like, some around here could kill for that teal dial with date window frame...


You saw through me :-d


----------



## philippeF

Hello
did this dial come with this case ?
kind regards
Philippe


----------



## Avidfan

It's a type 34 Komandirskie case with a 2409A Amphibia dial with wrong Komandirskie hands also.

Should be in an Amphibia case, a 320, 470 or 020 would probably be ok.


----------



## EndeavourDK

I've seen this Probeda and in a way I like it.
However, I know nothing about it ! So far I've been purely concentrating on Vostoks.
I've no idea whether it's original, the quality of the whole thing, what kind of movement it has and the parts availability (it is a none-runner !!).
In the add it says 1960 - 1969, but it looks like the papers (if they belong to it??) suggest '91?
Can somebody enlighten me whether it is wise to make such a side step, where I let myself into and whether it is worth the effort ?
Thank you ;-)


----------



## Straight_time

philippeF said:


> Hello
> did this dial come with this case ?
> kind regards
> Philippe


Model 320453; my guess is that 320455 refers to the black dial/grey ship version.

















Pictures taken from the net (I have it in NOS conditions with the more common small box without bracelet, but my photos wouldn't have been this good...)


----------



## Straight_time

EndeavourDK said:


> I've seen this Probeda and in a way I like it.
> However, I know nothing about it ! So far I've been purely concentrating on Vostoks.
> I've no idea whether it's original,
> the quality of the whole thing,
> what kind of movement it has
> and the parts availability
> (it is a none-runner !!).
> In the add it says 1960 - 1969, but it looks like the papers (if they belong to it??) suggest '91?
> Can somebody enlighten me whether it is wise to make such a side step,
> where I let myself into and whether it is worth the effort ?
> Thank you ;-)


1) Yes it is (*); :-!

2) I believe that ZIM-made Pobedas were considered somehow "cheap" even for Soviet standards, but IMHO they are honest watches anyway;

3) the ubiquitous ZIM 2602;

4) the suggested unit of measure for spares is the railway wagon; :-d

5) (being it a non-shockproof caliber, most likely the balance axle is dead); :think:

6) trust your eyes rather than a seller's word; ;-)

7) are you looking for wisdom _*here*_ :-s

8) you are about to open another Pandora's vase... good luck! :-d

(*) from the 1987 ZIM catalog, one of the very few brand-specific known (if not the only one)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Straight_time said:


> being it a non-shockproof caliber, most likely the balance axle is dead; :think:


Thank you very much for your information :-!

I contacted the seller yesterday morning asking whether the balance was still oscillating freely ........ no answer. After reading your answer, that wagon loads of part were still available, I threw in a bid ...... no reply.

The eBay add ran this morning out and I can't see the point in further communicating / dealing with an "incommunicado".

Too bad, but thanks anyway ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

An update about the diver we discussed two pages back (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-250.html)

The winning bid for the nice CCCP diver-dial plus the Komandisrkie parts would have set you back ....... and don't forget to add the £10 postage :-!

:think:

Please beam me up Scotty :-d


----------



## dropmyload

Hello, I'm not sure if this Poljot is Russian or Polish, but from the photos does it look original? I like the look so was wondering whether to go ahead and buy. Seller says it is fully functioning and was serviced in October 2018.


----------



## Kamburov

I wouldn't buy. Don't have the time for an investigation, but notice these two things:
1. This dial is clearly not for a round crystal case.
2. I'm pretty sure the caseback is a Slava.

It will be interesting to solve the puzzle of which is which, but it doesn't look right.
Ivan


----------



## haha

Ivan is right, as usual :-d
Here is a picture of the correct watch/dial combination.








I just checked, the caseback is definitely from a Slava.


----------



## dropmyload

Thank you. The knowledge pool here is amazing. I wish one day I will be half as educated as the members here!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## PanKorop

dropmyload said:


> Hello, I'm not sure if this Poljot is Russian or Polish, but from the photos does it look original? I like the look so was wondering whether to go ahead and buy. Seller says it is fully functioning and was serviced in October 2018.


I can at least tell you it is Russian, in an export (latin) transliteration.
It looks fine to me, bit for secure authentication (case, movement, crown, etc.) you have other experts here


----------



## 24h

Hmm...you see something new every day.
Chinese copy of a Buran chronograph (well there's no way the two extra crowns are functional on this one).:-d


----------



## Chascomm

Strewth! That's a sad end to one of the last Nanjing SN-2 movements.


----------



## Kamburov

And while we are on the subject of chinese movements, check this out:
View attachment 14063431
















Check out the vostok logo on the chinese standard, what's that about?
Ivan


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## PanKorop

Kamburov said:


> And while we are on the subject of chinese movements, check this out:
> 
> Check out the vostok logo on the chinese standard, what's that about?
> Ivan


Greenhorn question here: is it Chinese con-artists marketing fake Vostok's, or is it Russian artists ordering the fakes? Hen and egg, I understand, yet asking...


----------



## 24h

Kamburov said:


> View attachment 14063435
> 
> 
> Check out the vostok logo on the chinese standard, what's that about?
> Ivan


I looks like somebody sat on the Vostok logo...


----------



## Avidfan

Kamburov said:


> Check out the vostok logo on the chinese standard, what's that about?


Alkor-Vostok case, bezel and back, Vostok marked Tongji movement :-s, Vostok "Captain of Submarines" dial with Komandirskie hands.

Unusual :-d


----------



## Kamburov

I guess I'm not the only one wandering how this got made. PanKorop articulated my original question better than me 
I've seen my fair share of tongji komandirskis, but never in that combination, and certainly never with a vostok logo stamped on the movement. Why would anyone bother? To make it look more authentic? :think: ;-)
Ivan


----------



## Chascomm

PanKorop said:


> Greenhorn question here: is it Chinese con-artists marketing fake Vostok's, or is it Russian artists ordering the fakes? Hen and egg, I understand, yet asking...


A fair question. After all, a Tongji is nothing like a 2414, and the watch has a solid case back. As a piece of fakery, that movement logo makes no sense.

Who is Alkor-Vostok? Perhaps the answer lies there:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/alkor-vostok-4488911.html

...although that still leaves us with a Russian-branded submarine dial with "made in USSR" in English combined with a post-Soviet case and movement.


----------



## 24h

I'm asking for a friend because I have absolutely zero knowledge of this subject.

First of all this is a frankenwatch, correct? That dial looks like it was made yesterday.

How do you tell the difference between a Vympel ultra-thin 2209 and others? Is it ANY similar movement with the 1МЧЗ, МЧЗ, or Luch/Beam logo stamps?
Not only are there other Soviet movements named 2209 that aren't related to this one, but numerous online listings are describing these as Vympel 2209s.


----------



## schnurrp

24h said:


> I'm asking for a friend because I have absolutely zero knowledge of this subject.
> 
> First of all this is a frankenwatch, correct? That dial looks like it was made yesterday.
> 
> How do you tell the difference between a Vympel ultra-thin 2209 and others? Is it ANY similar movement with the 1МЧЗ, МЧЗ, or Luch/Beam logo stamps?
> Not only are there other Soviet movements named 2209 that aren't related to this one, but numerous online listings are describing these as Vympel 2209s.
> 
> View attachment 14073195
> 
> 
> View attachment 14073197


Poljot did not make a dial with slashes like that. Correct slashes should have parallel sides ending in a point not curved sides like that one. Many of these fake dials have been sold.

One of mroatman's with correct slashes:









Also by the time that adjustable balance movement and case type appeared 2209s were only being made in Minsk.

That one is a total fabrication, in my humble opinion.


----------



## 24h

schnurrp said:


> Poljot did not make a dial with slashes like that. Correct slashes should have parallel sides ending in a point not curved sides like that one. Many of these fake dials have been sold.
> 
> One of mroatman's with correct slashes:
> 
> View attachment 14075073
> 
> 
> Also by the time that adjustable balance movement and case type appeared 2209s were only being made in Minsk.
> 
> That one is a total fabrication, in my humble opinion.


Thanks for the reply! Mroatman's site is a very good resource but I tend to forget to check it. :-d
Not EVERY watch is showcased there, and I also had a hard time finding something similar in the catalogs.

I'm somewhat confused - can you instantly tell the difference between an "ultra-thin" 2209 and other 2209 movements based on the movement markings?
From my understanding, only the Vympel/1МЧЗ movements are the "ultra-thin" variant and the others from МЧЗ/Luch are thicker.


----------



## schnurrp

24h said:


> Thanks for the reply! Mroatman's site is a very good resource but I tend to forget to check it. :-d
> Not EVERY watch is showcased there, and I also had a hard time finding something similar in the catalogs.
> 
> I'm somewhat confused - can you instantly tell the difference between an "ultra-thin" 2209 and other 2209 movements based on the movement markings?
> From my understanding, only the Vympel/1МЧЗ movements are the "ultra-thin" variant and the others from МЧЗ/Luch are thicker.


No, I think you can say they are basically the same movement with pretty good interchangeability of parts. There are some slight differences in the initial gearing scheme between the earliest movements and the more modern ones, if I remember correctly, but bridges and balances can be swapped as well as winding gears, keyless works, etc.

Here are some more good examples of proper dial "slashes" as shown on some very early "Vimpels" from Russ' website: https://russrussianwatches.blogspot.com/p/poljot-and-luch-2209-ultrathin.html


----------



## EndeavourDK

I'm puzzled & in doubt by what I see and like to have the opinions of the experts :think:

Bought these two VDV dials as NOS. I double checked and the seller guaranteed me that they were 100% genuine / authentic / original.

They are as mint as mint can come. No scratches, no damage, no aging cracks, no signs of any age. In fact they look like as if they have left the factory yesterday .... and that's my problem :roll:
I do assume that, if authentic, these dials were produced begin '90's, say 1992-1993. One would expect, like with many dials from that period, to see some cracks in the surface paint or some other signs of age. Even the copper of the dial-feet is still shiny :think:

Are these dials (already?) known for reproductions ? It is possible at all that these dials look like these after 25 years? 
Are there tell-tales that they are reproductions, or are there tell-tales (manufacturing methods) that they are for sure genuine?

Hope to hear your opinion(s) ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

Well there's nothing specific I can see on them to say they are reproductions, they might have been stored in perfect conditions to explain their mint condition. 

Also they might not be as early as 1992-93, Vostok marking of dials with " Made in Russia" (in Cyrillic) might have started as early as 1995 but there are lots of dials around with no country of origin used much later and as late as 2002 so they might not be as old as you think.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Well there's nothing specific I can see on them to say they are reproductions, they might have been stored in perfect conditions to explain their mint condition.
> 
> Also they might not be as early as 1992-93, Vostok marking of dials with " Made in Russia" (in Cyrillic) might have started as early as 1995 but there are lots of dials around with no country of origin used much later and as late as 2002 so they might not be as old as you think.


Thanks Avidfan; I certainly didn't know that dials were produced with no country of origin as late as 2002 ........ this is nice to know and another learning :-!

Since these dial could be as late as from 2002, that begs to question in which cases I can put them to be (still) of the "correct" (prolonged) period? Both sets of hands possible; Komandirskie & Amphibian?


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Since these dial could be as late as from 2002, that begs to question in which cases I can put them to be (still) of the "correct" (prolonged) period? Both sets of hands possible; Komandirskie & Amphibian?


For Komandirskie almost any case with a 3 o'clock crown would be fine but I would be sure to use a chrome plated Komandirskie case that has a crystal ring and also use old style hands with longer lume channels.

For Amphibia I would use a 420 case but again with old style hands.


----------



## yekaterinburg

What are people's views on the authenticity of this Komandirskie? Seems to check out well against the catalogue but can't tell if it's just too perfect to be the real deal?









Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## AlexJB

Hello, I've been enjoying watchuseek for many years, and have a humble collection of watches, with a particular interest in russian examples. I have recently purchased a Luch pulsmeter and was hoping some of you might be able to tell me if it's legit or a Franken watch? Thank you in advance!


----------



## PanKorop

AlexJB said:


> Hello, I've been enjoying watchuseek for many years, and have a humble collection of watches, with a particular interest in russian examples. I have recently purchased a Luch pulsmeter and was hoping some of you might be able to tell me if it's legit or a Franken watch? Thank you in advance!


A.f.a.i.k., legit - congrats!
Now you need the Slava mechanical in "fridge" case, then maybe an Ω Speedo Mk II with the right glass, but most all of these ARE Frankenrössti...


----------



## Kamburov

yekaterinburg said:


> What are people's views on the authenticity of this Komandirskie? Seems to check out well against the catalogue but can't tell if it's just too perfect to be the real deal?


I can't see problems with it, looks like the real deal to me. The dial looks good and authentic. Hope you get it for a reasonable price, but it's a nice watch, nice size too. The case is in a reasonably good condition too, not too many brass spots underneath. 
Ivan


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## Kamburov

double post


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## yekaterinburg

Kamburov said:


> I can't see problems with it, looks like the real deal to me. The dial looks good and authentic. Hope you get it for a reasonable price, but it's a nice watch, nice size too. The case is in a reasonably good condition too, not too many brass spots underneath.
> Ivan


Thanks Kamburov! What would you consider a reasonable price, I'm new to Komandirskie!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kamburov

yekaterinburg said:


> Thanks Kamburov! What would you consider a reasonable price, I'm new to Komandirskie!
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


It's a matter of personal opinion and financial abilities. The good thing is soviet watches are no omegas and patek pfillipes, so we are talking eventually overpaying tens of dolars, not hundreds or thusands. It costs as much as you are willing to pay.
If you are patient you can probably get a good one within $50-$80. For that money you can buy a brand new shiny amfibia, right? 
I saw the one you posted and its price, but there's a "make offer" button and it doesn't hurt trying it. I think that 20% up to 30% reduction of the asking price is reasonable and respectable. Seller seems to be trustworthy and with a good feedback.
Good luck if you go for it!
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Kamburov; Congrats with your 1,000th post Ivan ....... IMHO you are a great expert support :-!


----------



## AlexJB




----------



## AlexJB

View attachment 14081861
View attachment 14081865

View attachment 14081869


----------



## Kamburov

Ha, didn't notice at all! Thanks, EndeavourDK!
I still have more questions than the ones I try giving answer to  So no expert at all, but that's the mysterious attraction of soviet watches, I guess.
Ivan


----------



## AlexJB

The original post with these pictures was deleted, hence why I'm posting them again.


----------



## yekaterinburg

Kamburov said:


> It's a matter of personal opinion and financial abilities. The good thing is soviet watches are no omegas and patek pfillipes, so we are talking eventually overpaying tens of dolars, not hundreds or thusands. It costs as much as you are willing to pay.
> If you are patient you can probably get a good one within $50-$80. For that money you can buy a brand new shiny amfibia, right?
> I saw the one you posted and its price, but there's a "make offer" button and it doesn't hurt trying it. I think that 20% up to 30% reduction of the asking price is reasonable and respectable. Seller seems to be trustworthy and with a good feedback.
> Good luck if you go for it!
> Ivan


Thanks for the advice! And congrats on your 1000th post!!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## rainbowbattlekid

Does this Big Zero look authentic to you guys?

Most of the ones on eBay look suspect to me, or are not the features i want (white dial, cyrillic, ussr, etc)

This one looks decent to me but I could be missing something. That is the correct crystal, right?

View attachment 14091043


View attachment 14091325


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

Looking now, this other listing seems to have a different crystal, maybe more legit?


----------



## Lochos

I'm new to this whole forum so I wasn't sure whether to post here or entirely separately but I've been eyeing a Raketa Moonphase watch for quite some time. It looks like it's in amazing condition considering that the watches were made in the 80s-90s. Could anyone help me discover if the watch has all the legitimate pieces? Thanks!


----------



## EndeavourDK

I bought this watch for its "asymmetric" case and special bezel. I've seen this case + bezel combination more often, so I tend to believe it's a legit combination. I have no idea what type of Komandirskie case this is (if it is a Komandirskie?)? The current crown seems small, suggesting a year 2000 or later model. However the back-cover is numbered which, I believe, was normal practice much earlier, more in the soviet period ? The crown could be wrong / misleading or the back-cover isn't correct?

So my questions to the experts are;

- What type of Komandirskie case it this and from which period?
- Is the back-cover a valid combination with this case? (if not, any idea which cover is? (small bird left with number area, large bird, small bird right with no number area?)) or if the case is older, is their something up with the crown?
- Not so important, but for learning value; Is the bracelet a valid combination and is it worth keeping?

Hope to hear


----------



## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> I bought this watch for its "asymmetric" case and special bezel. I've seen this case + bezel combination more often, so I tend to believe it's a legit combination. I have no idea what type of Komandirskie case this is (if it is a Komandirskie?)? The current crown seems small, suggesting a year 2000 or later model. However the back-cover is numbered which, I believe, was normal practice much earlier, more in the soviet period ? The crown could be wrong / misleading or the back-cover isn't correct?
> 
> So my questions to the experts are;
> 
> - What type of Komandirskie case it this and from which period?
> - Is the back-cover a valid combination with this case? (if not, any idea which cover is? (small bird left with number area, large bird, small bird right with no number area?)) or if the case is older, is their something up with the crown?
> - Not so important, but for learning value; Is the bracelet a valid combination and is it worth keeping?
> 
> Hope to hear


Sorry to say it, danish friend, but it's a mix of parts. 
The case/bezel is indeed 2000 onwards and number may be 939. You can check the 2001 catalog. The crown is needs to be golden tone, as is the case. The case back may be is supposed to be the sun/seagulls, deffinately not this one. The bracelet has nothing to do with this watch, also has the recognizble "automatic" sign.
The watch inside is this one (top right):








A comandirskie will have a lumed dial and lumed hands. Also "made in ussr" in a 2000 watch is a good giveaway.
You have two restorations on your hands. Good luck with it!
Ivan


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I bought this watch for its "asymmetric" case and special bezel. I've seen this case + bezel combination more often, so I tend to believe it's a legit combination. I have no idea what type of Komandirskie case this is (if it is a Komandirskie?)? The current crown seems small, suggesting a year 2000 or later model. However the back-cover is numbered which, I believe, was normal practice much earlier, more in the soviet period ? The crown could be wrong / misleading or the back-cover isn't correct?
> 
> So my questions to the experts are;
> 
> - What type of Komandirskie case it this and from which period?
> - Is the back-cover a valid combination with this case? (if not, any idea which cover is? (small bird left with number area, large bird, small bird right with no number area?)) or if the case is older, is their something up with the crown?
> - Not so important, but for learning value; Is the bracelet a valid combination and is it worth keeping?
> 
> Hope to hear


This case type I think is still unknown according to the database sticky:https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-classification-database-draft-424915-3.html (post #22) but it is a post-Soviet Komandirskie case from the 1990's.

The dial seems to be this one in the 1983 catalogue, bottom row dial code 920 and the case back also might have come with this dial :think: the original back was probably a "big bird" (guess) and the small crown might be original or might have been changed it's impossible to say, but you do usually see this case with big crown.









And the bracelet would probably be aftermarket

Hope this helps a little...


----------



## Avidfan

Kamburov said:


> The case/bezel is indeed 2000 onwards and number may be 939.


Here's a type 93 case from the same sticky


----------



## EndeavourDK

@Kamburov & @Avidfan; Thank you very much for the splendid information :-!

As said, I was mainly interested in the case and bezel for a "paratrooper" project. Both will be re-plated with a layer of copper and a finish layer of nickel.
The crown and back-cover are easily sorted as I have plenty spares.
The bracelet, movement and dial were just a bonus. I can always use spare parts ..... The whole lot came for $10.50, so regardless no harm done b-)

Main things were the case + bezel, which are apparently are in a good shape and indeed, both seem to be in the category "special" .... which is exactly what I wanted.

So I'm very pleased with the information and in fact, with all the good news ! ;-)

Thanks a lot :-!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Since I have two NOS paratrooper dials, this is the watch I like to create; which I think is a legit combination case/bezel/dial ...... When the bezel is turned with the red-dot at the 12-o-clock position, the two airplane wing edges do line up with the outer bezel-markers.........

(BTW; that watch has the big-bird back-cover and in the link, most pictures end with _57 ....... 57 case ??. https://picclick.com/watch-VOSTOK-K...anical-Russian-283424538555.html#&gid=1&pid=1)


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> most pictures end with _57 ....... 57 case ??.


Probably not, the watch was originally for sale on eBay and the seller seems to sell mostly old photo's and not many watches, I don't think he knows the case code for an obscure Vostok.


----------



## hseldon

rainbowbattlekid said:


> Does this Big Zero look authentic to you guys?
> 
> Most of the ones on eBay look suspect to me, or are not the features i want (white dial, cyrillic, ussr, etc)
> 
> This one looks decent to me but I could be missing something. That is the correct crystal, right?
> 
> View attachment 14091043
> 
> 
> View attachment 14091325


Both of these look good to me. I can't see any difference in the crystals, they both look the same to me and are correct. The bottom one may be a bit more worn but that's about it.

The important thing to check is the movement inside. It should be a 2609 НА with SU stamped on the bridge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Probably not, the watch was originally for sale on eBay and the seller seems to sell mostly old photo's and not many watches, I don't think he knows the case code for an obscure Vostok.


You are amazing in checking out things :-! The Sherlock Holmes on WUS, not only in Vostok watches ...... :-d
BTW; "interesting" collection of old photo's the seller is selling ..... indeed far from Vostoks ........ or not :think:


----------



## alexg989

Hi all,

I saw something interesting recently:

View attachment 14104033


The two cases are very similar, but where the silver watch on the right has the regular full sized bezel and smaller crystal, the gold one on the left has a much larger crystal and little/no bezel.

How is this possible? Are they different cases altogether?


----------



## AlexJB

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Any thoughts on this Luch pulsometer watch?


----------



## Chascomm

Different sized dial openings makes them effectively different cases, and I would expect them to be catalogued with different case numbers.


----------



## alexg989

Interesting!

I took a look at the classification thread but couldn't quite find anything like the larger opening one. Any suggestions for where to do some research?

Edit: Found out it has 30mm crystal...


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



AlexJB said:


> Any thoughts on this Luch pulsometer watch?
> 
> View attachment 14105681
> 
> View attachment 14105683
> 
> View attachment 14105685


I believe this version is more common:









but I found this among images on google:









I'd say authentic, comrade.


----------



## hseldon

Not 100% sure about the crown here. Maybe just a bit worn down? Everything else seems fine. What do you think?


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

hseldon said:


> Not 100% sure about the crown here. Maybe just a bit worn down? Everything else seems fine. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would be worried about the crown for another reason. I believe the 'Mirs' were manufactured originally with crowns almost completely incorporated by the case so that winding was most easily done by the index finger from underneath. This "streamlined" approach for the crown was often sacrificed when a crown was worn out and had to be replaced since the original crown was hard to find.

A couple examples:

































Also does not have the unique Mir case and I would question the second hand.


----------



## Kamburov

Link to Dashiel's collection:

https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/mir?lightbox=dataItem-ih1gc84w

The link to the cataog insert is not working, google images were shut down. If anyone finds the catalog pics, we might solve this.
I have a gut feeling the Mir migh be legit. A bit later model (1975-1976).
Ivan


----------



## hseldon

I have seen Dashiell’s Mir and it looks the same. So my initial feeling was the case and second hand were good, but was thinking the same thing as Paul re the the crown. Not convinced Dashiell’s crown is correct either. When it comes to cases with that notch I expect the crown to be fitted as Paul describes. Obviously a catalogue link would clear it up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

hseldon said:


> I have seen Dashiell's Mir and it looks the same. So my initial feeling was the case and second hand were good, but was thinking the same thing as Paul re the the crown. Not convinced Dashiell's crown is correct either. When it comes to cases with that notch I expect the crown to be fitted as Paul describes. Obviously a catalogue link would clear it up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is the only catalog reference, from 1964, I've seen of the 2209 Mir-type watch (which is not technically a "Mir") in the more modern case. I guess it's possible that around 1964 when the switch to Vostok was made some "Mirs" were put in the more modern case but no catalog pictures exist that I know of. Crown appears flat but not streamlined.









Pictured in the same catalog:









One of mine 2214:


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Link to Dashiel's collection:
> 
> https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/mir?lightbox=dataItem-ih1gc84w
> 
> The link to the cataog insert is not working, google images were shut down. If anyone finds the catalog pics, we might solve this.
> I have a gut feeling the Mir migh be legit. A bit later model (1975-1976).
> Ivan


I don't think any 2209/2214 dress watches made by Chistopol were branded "Mir" after the use of the "Vostok" brand was begun in 1964.


----------



## hseldon

Many thanks for helpful advice. I am most grateful for your opinions. I think on reflection this one will stay off the might buy list for the time being. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> I don't think any 2209/2214 dress watches made by Chistopol were branded "Mir" after the use of the "Vostok" brand was begun in 1964.


Huh, I just said a nonsense, didn't I? 
You are right, of course. All my mirs are in the classic mir cases, and may be one or two have original crowns. They are not in best shape, so I don't know. I'll have to fix that.















I was just wondering if any were released in different case prior to the Vostok change, as there are many examples as in hseldon's post or Dashiel's site.
Or everyone just uses Dashiel's site as a point of refference when asembling a mir 
Mirs are not well catalogued, are they? Maybe something shows up in the future to clear this.
Ivan

PS: By the way, never saw a "mir" before. All I get is in cyrrillic.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Huh, I just said a nonsense, didn't I?
> You are right, of course. All my mirs are in the classic mir cases, and may be one or two have original crowns. They are not in best shape, so I don't know. I'll have to fix that.
> View attachment 14110497
> 
> View attachment 14110499
> 
> 
> I was just wondering if any were released in different case prior to the Vostok change, as there are many examples as in hseldon's post or Dashiel's site.
> Or everyone just uses Dashiel's site as a point of refference when asembling a mir
> Mirs are not well catalogued, are they? Maybe something shows up in the future to clear this.
> Ivan
> 
> PS: By the way, never saw a "mir" before. All I get is in cyrrillic.


There are several "Mir" for sale on ebay now. Some are in the classic case and some are in the newer one but I believe they all have "B" logo movements which to me means they were made around '64 at the transition point.

















I wouldn't be surprised if some Mirs were sold in the newer case but we have no catalog proof.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Bought this watch for other reasons and the dial is "surplus". But just out of curiosity (ignoring the poor visibility through the crystal); I like to know whether these kind of "fabric" dials (I've seen various models) are genuine Vostok or are they some fantasy dials made on a kind of printer :think: 
Some of them seem to have quite some fine details and well made .....


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Bought this watch for other reasons and the dial is "surplus". But just out of curiosity (ignoring the poor visibility through the crystal); I like to know whether these kind of "fabric" dials (I've seen various models) are genuine Vostok or are they some fantasy dials made on a kind of printer :think:
> Some of them seem to have quite some fine details and well made .....


They are not made by Vostok and who made them I've no idea, but you do see them all the time and most have the same incorrect Vostok logo.

There seem to have been at least a couple of companies in Russia making these dials around 20 years ago and putting them on brand new Vostoks, some of these would have been for small print runs that the factory probably wouldn't have been interested in doing so I wouldn't call them fake or fantasy as such.


----------



## Kamburov

Avidfan said:


> They are not made by Vostok and who made them I've no idea, but you do see them all the time and most have the same incorrect Vostok logo.
> 
> There seem to have been at least a couple of companies in Russia making these dials around 20 years ago and putting them on brand new Vostoks, some of these would have been for small print runs that the factory probably wouldn't have been interested in doing so I wouldn't call them fake or fantasy as such.


Agree with Avidfan. Not a Chistopol dial, but then why would anyone fake a dial with a big "Russia tax police" print on it  
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Thank you for the answers :-!

If they aren't made by Vostok, but carry a Vostok logo; I would call them fake (pretending something which it is not).
However, understanding the answers above, the design is unique and are / were professionally made.

Another thing learned; thanks


----------



## Chascomm

EndeavourDK said:


> If they aren't made by Vostok, but carry a Vostok logo; I would call them fake (pretending something which it is not)...


I'm guessing that is why the logo is slightly different; to sort of mark the dial as after-market, but sort of hide the fact at the same time.

A couple of those dial-makers were located in Moscow. I remember one might have been called 'Vostok-Design', but I don't know if they are related to the makers of the Ratnik watch. Another I recall as having a name something like 'Breguet' (written in the Roman alphabet), which could plausibly put a 'B' logo on the dial and claim it was a different letter to Vostok.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Chascomm said:


> I'm guessing that is why the logo is slightly different; to sort of mark the dial as after-market, but sort of hide the fact at the same time.
> 
> A couple of those dial-makers were located in Moscow. I remember one might have been called 'Vostok-Design', but I don't know if they are related to the makers of the Ratnik watch. Another I recall as having a name something like 'Breguet' (written in the Roman alphabet), which could plausibly put a 'B' logo on the dial and claim it was a different letter to Vostok.


As I understood, there is a place in China called USA ......... = therefor their products are literally & legally "made in the USA" :-d

Still, for an untrained eye like mine, the "B" logo looks eerily close to the real one and to me it has the aim of deception. Not that I ever went for one of these dials, I always had so my doubts. This watch happen to have one (and therefor came cheap) and curiosity got the better part of me


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## dropmyload

Dear Experts, I have seen this one and am thinking of buying it. What does the great collective knowledge think of this watch?

Hoping to learn some more from all your experience.

Many thanks









Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk


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## mariomart

dropmyload said:


> Dear Experts, I have seen this one and am thinking of buying it. What does the great collective knowledge think of this watch?
> 
> Hoping to learn some more from all your experience.
> 
> Many thanks


The case Type is known as model number 673.

I was unable to find any matching documentation to prove that the Type 673 case was ever sold with the dial and hand set shown.

There is an example of the watch case in Dashiell's collection (photo given below) which shows that the dial for his example had a very elegant and refined appearance, which makes me suspect that the dial in your example may not have originated in this style of case.

In this case I can only go off my "gut" feeling that this is a collection of parts from 2 or more watches, the only way to give more credibility to this being a factory original design is to either find a collaborating catalog reference or to locate other examples with the same case/dial/hands combination (preferably not from the same seller, as this could mean they are the source of the collection of parts).

Sorry I can't be of more assistance.

Good luck on your quest ;-)


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## dropmyload

Thank you so much for your assistance. I still like the way it looks so let me see what the seller says. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk


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## haha

I have exactly the same model, so i'm pretty sure it's legit. I'll take a picture later today.


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## dropmyload

haha said:


> I have exactly the same model, so i'm pretty sure it's legit. I'll take a picture later today.


Pls share I'd love to see it

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk


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## haha

Here it is.


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## mariomart

haha said:


> Here it is.


Well that pretty much confirms that it appears to be a valid model variant.

Thanks haha :-!


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## Straight_time

The case style 673 has a rather different design, it's completely plain with no "grooves" at all.

According to the passport of my NOS example, this model should be coded 2414A/*813903*.









I say "should" because the printed digits *565* (that is, only those related to the dial style) have been hand corrected everywhere with a ballpoint pen: 2 times on the main page and once on each of the 2 warranty coupons. 
Nevertheless, since everything else (all other numbers and stamps) matches, lacking any catalog entry I consider this the most trustworthy available source -most likely the passport was mistakenly issued from the factory to a wrong model, and corrected for warranty purposes at the sales point.


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## mariomart

Straight_time said:


> The case style 673 has a rather different design, it's completely plain with no "grooves" at all.
> 
> According to the passport of my NOS example, this model should be coded 2414A/*813903*.
> 
> I say "should" because the printed digits *565* (that is, only those related to the dial style) have been hand corrected everywhere with a ballpoint pen: 2 times on the main page and once on each of the 2 warranty coupons.
> Nevertheless, since everything else (all other numbers and stamps) matches, lacking any catalog entry I consider this the most trustworthy available source -most likely the passport was mistakenly issued from the factory to a wrong model, and corrected for warranty purposes at the sales point.


Excellent :-!

I was only going off a blurry scan of a 1979 catalog and Dashiell's web entry.

Being able to pin down an actual model through a NOS passport is gold. Thank you


----------



## MattBrace

Straight_time said:


> The case style 673 has a rather different design, it's completely plain with no "grooves" at all.
> 
> According to the passport of my NOS example, this model should be coded 2414A/*813903*.
> 
> View attachment 14121281
> 
> 
> I say "should" because the printed digits *565* (that is, only those related to the dial style) have been hand corrected everywhere with a ballpoint pen: 2 times on the main page and once on each of the 2 warranty coupons.
> Nevertheless, since everything else (all other numbers and stamps) matches, lacking any catalog entry I consider this the most trustworthy available source -most likely the passport was mistakenly issued from the factory to a wrong model, and corrected for warranty purposes at the sales point.
> 
> View attachment 14121359


Brilliant work Straight_time!

Would it be possible for you to send me a PM please, I would like to discuss something with you.

Cheers...


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## Eric M

Quick question. I picked up this 3133 the other week. I checked the Polmax guide and it seems like it fits the second half of the 1980s. I'm not great at identifying the movement variations, but does that seem like a reasonable guess?









Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


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## MattBrace

Eric M said:


> Quick question. I picked up this 3133 the other week. I checked the Polmax guide and it seems like it fits the second half of the 1980s. I'm not great at identifying the movement variations, but does that seem like a reasonable guess?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


Good asumption, let's say 87-88' as the date ring has the new thinner font.

Cheers...


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## philippeF

digged it out at home, I did not remember this watch : franken ?
thank you.


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## EndeavourDK

Searching on eBay for perhaps acquiring a post-Soviet Scuba dude with the big lume dots, I notice two different dials; one with a much finer / better print than the other. Since these Scuba dude is so popular, is the (what I suspect) second one fake ? (BTW; both are no candidates, but it would be nice to know if it is a known dial for "fakes")


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## elcogollero

Your opinions please on this watch... https://www.ebay.es/itm/WOSTOK-VOST...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 it has a Komandirskie 341 case (I think) and Komandirskie hands but is it an Amphibia dial? And no sign of an anti magnetic shield...


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## Avidfan

@EndeavourDK, I don't think I've ever seen a fake scuba dude dial, both the dials you show are original and the seller of the second example always seems to take grainy photos of his stock. 

@elcogollero, The watch is exactly what you think it is, a type 34 Komandirskie case with Amphibia dial and Komandirskie hands, and of course an anti-magnetic shield won't fit into a 34 case.


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## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> @EndeavourDK, I don't think I've ever seen a fake scuba dude dial, ....


I came across this monstrosity about 2 years ago on an eBay listing, I'm pretty sure it was a fake Scuba Dude.


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## elcogollero

Avidfan said:


> @elcogollero, The watch is exactly what you think it is, a type 34 Komandirskie case with Amphibia dial and Komandirskie hands, and of course an anti-magnetic shield won't fit into a 34 case.


Cheers - is there any way of knowing whether it was released like this or frankened? Is the 2409 often found in Komandirskie cases?


----------



## EndeavourDK

Another question; I bought this Albatross today, taking it for "sure" that it was a mixed bag of parts (Franken) and negotiated the price down accordingly....... but is it actually a Franken :-s
Searching the internet and I did find more; the same dial (or with other Albatross dials), the same case and the same bezel ??


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## dutchassasin

EndeavourDK said:


> Another question; I bought this Albatross today, taking it for "sure" that it was a mixed bag of parts (Franken) and negotiated the price down accordingly....... but is it actually a Franken :-s
> Searching the internet and I did find more; the same dial (or with other Albatross dials), the same case and the same bezel ??


Well ive seen this config mulitple times already. Notice the lack of "made in", so its probably one of those hectic post soviet creations.


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## EndeavourDK

dutchassasin said:


> Well ive seen this config mulitple times already. Notice the lack of "made in", so its probably one of those hectic post soviet creations.


Judging the difference in color between the back-cover and the case, having only one slot cut out, the case has to be a 92 Komandirskie. Perhaps wrongly, but I associate an Albatross dial with a waterproof Amphibian housing. It has Komandirskie hands (with a brighter & lighter color lume than the hour-dots) with an Amphibian paddle seconds hand. The bezel ...... I've no idea where that one belongs to?? Even for a post-Soviet, the whole thing doesn't make any sense .... hence I took it for granted that it was a fully Franken :roll:

But what if it's legit? 
Can we ever find out? I'll take it that these watches never came with a passport, or did they ?

In general, the whole watch looks as in new condition and when "legit", it would be a shame to tear it apart for the parts (what my intentions were) .... :think:

I'm puzzled with this one; to say the least ..... :-s


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> I came across this monstrosity about 2 years ago on an eBay listing, I'm pretty sure it was a fake Scuba Dude.


Thanks mariomart! Now I have seen a fake scuba dude dial :-d, but hopefully I think it's one most comrades on f/10 would be able to spot :think:


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## Kamburov

I second dutchassasin's opinion on this. I too have seen this strange combo, also with another maritime themed dial. I remember these well for the bezel that looks like the cadet bezel's big brother. No catalog refference last time I checked, a NOS with papers might clear this up. If you use it for parts you may be spoiling a legit watch. And it looks like nice watch.
Papers (or catalog) will eventually show up.
Ivan


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## Avidfan

@elcogollero, Any dial with the Russian words for "anti-magnetic" should be for a stainless steel Amphibia case that can take an anti-magnetic shield, so yes it's franken, but on post-Soviet watches with no "Made in" on the dial you do find 2409A dials and movements in 34 cases and they might be correct.

@EndeavourDK, The case type on your "Albatross" is a type 70, it looks the same as a type 92 from the front but the back only has one slot to take the regular flat Komandirskie back with one tab, and it might be legit :think: maybe one day an example will turn up with passport to prove this.

(Sorry I can't seem to quote anyone today, PC playing up again)


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## EndeavourDK

Thank you all for your comments; I was pretty sure it was a Franken. Lots of other people much have thought the same, or thought the watch wasn't interesting as the eBay add was placed by the end of March for $20 + $12.50 postage. Given the adds time span a nice negotiation leverage.
Also interesting to learn about the Komandirskie 70 case. :-! The steep learning curve never seems to end ! 
Perhaps, judging the mint back-cover locking-ring, the movement may be in the same good condition as the outside of the watch?

The only thing which still puzzles me a bit is in the first picture, the little thumbnail (and in a separated eBay add picture shown below) in which the seller shows the hands-lumination in the dark. The hour- / minute-hands light up far more than the surrounding hour markers or the paddle seconds-hand; initially "confirming" my suspicion of dealing with a Franken.
Is there a possibility that the hands are still the originals too ??

With all the information above it is needless to say that the watch won't be sacrificed for parts and will be proudly taken up in my collection; keen to find out more about it ...... ;-)

Another interesting point for me is that the "Albatros" depicted on the dial looks like a submarine-chaser. Consulting Wikipedia I can find only two "Albatros"-chasers; the WW2 Italian chaser "Albatros" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_submarine_chaser_Albatros) and a German chaser "Albatros" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_torpedo_boat_Albatros)

No Russian "Albatros" ?
How did one of the two made it onto a Russian dial or is Wikipedia information incomplete ?
Or was this watch, begin '90's, aimed at the Italian market? 
Or is the ship on the dial something completely else :think:


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## dutchassasin

Maybe your overthinking it, could it be just styled after a ship but not actually existing. A bit like artist impression.


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## EndeavourDK

dutchassasin said:


> Maybe your overthinking it, could it be just styled after a ship but not actually existing. A bit like artist impression.


Perhaps my imagination does run wild ..... ?
The Italian "Albatros" (I flipped the Wikipedia picture) vs the ship on the dial, Hmmm ......... :think:


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## Avidfan

I wouldn't worry too much about the hands, they might have been changed at some time but this doesn't make the watch a franken IMHO.


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## EndeavourDK

I guess black hands do suite the dial? What do you think about the paddle second-hand; plausible ?


----------



## dutchassasin

EndeavourDK said:


> Perhaps my imagination does run wild ..... ?
> The Italian "Albatross" vs the ship on the dial, Hmmm ......... :think:


Its not even close, the radars in the top suggest Cold War era. Perhaps something like the Kynda-class cruiser


----------



## Avidfan

Impossible to know for sure, but there's a 50% chance of the hand being correct :-d


----------



## mariomart

dutchassasin said:


> Its not even close, the radars in the top suggest Cold War era. Perhaps something like the Kynda-class cruiser


I was thinking Kresta Class Guided Missile Cruiser


----------



## EndeavourDK

mariomart said:


> I was thinking Kresta Class Guided Missile Cruiser


I can go along with both answers, the Kresta- and Kynda- class cruisers ;-)
At least both are Russian & look alike's.
The Italian Albatros made name-wise some sense, but not so much on a Russian dial. Both Russian cruisers do make sense ..... :-!

@Avidfan; yes in theory a 50% chance , but I give the black hands of being correct a ≥ 51% probability :-d The seconds hand, you may be "spot-on" ....

It's never boring with these Russian watches, everyday there is something new to discover !


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## Kamburov

dutchassasin said:


> Its not even close, the radars in the top suggest Cold War era. Perhaps something like the Kynda-class cruiser


Kynda is pretty close! Like the artist used that same photo 
Nice one, dutchassasin!


----------



## Odessa200

This is the Soviet Albatros from 1970-80s. It is Grisha


----------



## EndeavourDK

As for the Komandirskie 70 case, bezel and hands combination; on eBay the Spanish seller "la_relojeria_rusa" has this one on offer. To me he often seems to sell genuine & "untouched" pieces (all the watches which I bought from him were totally untouched)
If I were to take this watch as original & "legit", then only the paddle-seconds-hand of my watch remains questionable.


----------



## thewatchadude

Odessa200 said:


> This is the Soviet Albatros from 1970-80s. It is Grisha


To me this one looks like the one on the "Marine border patrol" albatros (dial 446).


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

Whar do you think about this one? i'm crazy to get a all original Poljot Amphibia. I think all is original, but i'm in doubt on the dial. And what do you consider a fair price for this one in this condition?


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you?
> 
> Whar do you think about this one? i'm crazy to get a all original Poljot Amphibia. I think all is original, but i'm in doubt on the dial. And what do you consider a fair price for this one in this condition?


I was looking at these yesterday myself. The dial is a remake as far as I can see. It should also have a different back cover.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> I was looking at these yesterday myself. The dial is a remake as far as I can see. It should also have a different back cover.


I don't see anything wrong with it. There is no catalog pictures of this watch that I'm aware of but there are many examples out there just like this one.

In a respected collection: https://russrussianwatches.blogspot.com/2011/12/cyrillic-poljot-amphibian-diver-added.html


----------



## philippeF

Odessa200 said:


> I was looking at these yesterday myself. The dial is a remake as far as I can see. It should also have a different back cover.


Fake dial, (have a look at the я of камня ...)
The lume dot should have some material too !

edit : looks legit finally under picture zoom


----------



## bpmurray

philippeF said:


> Fake dial, (have a look at the я of камня ...)
> The lume dot should have some material too !
> 
> edit : looks legit finally under picture zoom


It's legitimate. This particular dial was unlumed. The Poljot divers are an unusual lot, without much evidence to support them, but I've seen this particular type enough that I'm convinced its as it should be.


----------



## Odessa200

bpmurray said:


> philippeF said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fake dial, (have a look at the я of камня ...)
> The lume dot should have some material too !
> 
> edit : looks legit finally under picture zoom
> 
> 
> 
> It's legitimate. This particular dial was unlumed. The Poljot divers are an unusual lot, without much evidence to support them, but I've seen this particular type enough that I'm convinced its as it should be.
Click to expand...

Good to know! I just got one myself with the lume on the marks and he digits.... too bad there are no catalog images....


----------



## RussianDiver

Hello everyone,
what do you think of this watch?


----------



## Odessa200

RussianDiver said:


> Hello everyone,
> what do you think of this watch?
> 
> View attachment 14181033
> 
> 
> View attachment 14181035
> 
> 
> View attachment 14181037


I would say its a Franken. 1st, the back cover says 'automatic' and its obviously NOT. Second we see Gold hands and Gold marks in stainless body. Most watches in this body style (Bochka) would be with stainless hands and Lume. Such a old and cleaned dial in so good preserved body. All this suggests a Franken to me.


----------



## RussianDiver

Odessa200 said:


> I would say its a Franken. 1st, the back cover says 'automatic' and its obviously NOT. Second we see Gold hands and Gold marks in stainless body. Most watches in this body style (Bochka) would be with stainless hands and Lume. Such a old and cleaned dial in so good preserved body. All this suggests a Franken to me.


I was also wondering if the 119 cases ever used the 2409A movement originally


----------



## Avidfan

RussianDiver said:


> I was also wondering if the 119 cases ever used the 2409A movement originally


The 119 case is for 2209 movement only, I can see parts from at least 4 different watches so unless you want the parts I'd pass.


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> RussianDiver said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was also wondering if the 119 cases ever used the 2409A movement originally
> 
> 
> 
> The 119 case is for 2209 movement only, I can see parts from at least 4 different watches so unless you want the parts I'd pass.
Click to expand...

Was thinking same but figured 'maybe'. Even checked all my Bochkas. 2209 ?. Thanks for confirming this for me.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> I was looking at these yesterday myself. The dial is a remake as far as I can see. It should also have a different back cover.





schnurrp said:


> I don't see anything wrong with it. There is no catalog pictures of this watch that I'm aware of but there are many examples out there just like this one.
> 
> In a respected collection: https://russrussianwatches.blogspot.com/2011/12/cyrillic-poljot-amphibian-diver-added.html





philippeF said:


> Fake dial, (have a look at the я of камня ...)
> The lume dot should have some material too !
> 
> edit : looks legit finally under picture zoom





bpmurray said:


> It's legitimate. This particular dial was unlumed. The Poljot divers are an unusual lot, without much evidence to support them, but I've seen this particular type enough that I'm convinced its as it should be.





Odessa200 said:


> Good to know! I just got one myself with the lume on the marks and he digits.... too bad there are no catalog images....


Many many thanks guys,

I finally disappeared from ebay before I decided. But thank you very much anyway, friends, I kept looking for one


----------



## miroman

Odessa200 said:


> I was looking at these yesterday myself. The dial is a remake as far as I can see. It should also have a different back cover.


It's all legit. As I describe here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/some-details-russian-divers-poljot-raketa-amphibian-3408386.html , there are at least four type of dials. Lately I noticed that a Cyrillic dial must be with Dolphin or Cyrillic case.
That's correct here. The only thing I can't see, is the number on the auto-bridge, it must be 2616 and not 2627 (2627 if from date/day movement, sometimes if a watchmaker hasn't a correct type, puts from 2627)

In that condition on eBay I expect something about $180-200. But who knows...


----------



## EndeavourDK

Hello Experts ;-)

Yesterday I received an Amphibian which I bought mainly for it's 270 case. In the sellers add it was hard to see whether the dial had been tempered with; it seemed to lack some print. To see was that a few lume hours-dots were damaged. The watch had the proper long-lume Amphibian hands and the red paddle seconds-hand.
I took the watch apart and the dial, apart from the missing lume-dots, is actually in very good condition and has no signs of any tempering.
Comparing this dial with another one I have, a non-date anti-magnetic CCCP, I was again puzzled by the lack of print.
Obviously it's a post-Soviet dial and so is, as I understood, the 270 case.
First, I'm not sure if the dial belongs to a 270 case and if that could be plausible, whether there are known 270 cases with anti-magnetic shielding?
If this dial would be a legit post-Soviet combination with a 270 case, with no anti-magnetic shielding, it would make sense to drop (next to the country print) also the word "anti-magnetic", but in this case the Boctok "B" has also been dropped ?? From the print left and all the rest of it, even with the less print quality as the CCCP dial, it still seems to be a legit Boctok dial...... or not ?? (compare the position of the star on top to the blue circle)
Searching the internet I so far haven't seen a 100% identical dial :think:
Has anybody any info about this dial? Would this dial be specifically made for a 270 case or is it a fake dial?

What do the experts have to say? Hope to hear 

First 2 pictures of the case & dial, the 3rd my CCCP version.


----------



## Avidfan

@EndeavourDK, Very little is known about production from this era and the 270 case is not in any of the known catalogues, this particular dial went through a lot of small changes throughout the 1990's and yours is just another variation of these changes and looks to me to be genuine Chistopol production.

The only way you will know for sure if the dial goes with the 270 case is to find another NOS example with papers and until you do or a catalogue is found that covers this era it really is just guesswork as to whether they're correct or not, but to me your watch looks fine :-!

I hope this helps a little...


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> @EndeavourDK, Very little is known about production from this era and the 270 case is not in any of the known catalogues, this particular dial went through a lot of small changes throughout the 1990's and yours is just another variation of these changes and looks to me to be genuine Chistopol production.
> 
> The only way you will know for sure if the dial goes with the 270 case is to find another NOS example with papers and until you do or a catalogue is found that covers this era it really is just guesswork as to whether they're correct or not, but to me your watch looks fine :-!
> 
> I hope this helps a little...


Thanks a lot for your info ;-)

It seems that I choose / pick-up each time "one of those"; unidentified watches / dials which requires another NOS with papers or wait for to turn up, if ever, in an up till now unknown catalogue. 
How lucky can one be ? :-s

Anyway, once I acquire the skill set to do lume hour-dots I'll see if I can restore this dial. Since this one doesn't seem to be "everywhere", it may be worth to keep the "quirky" ones ;-)

Thanks !


----------



## EndeavourDK

I've been offered a collection of various brands of Russian watches. Most bought a long time ago and the owner isn't sure about their authenticity. I've no idea about the other brands, other than some of the Vostoks. Some are not my taste and some Vostoks I'm not sure if they are original / authentic :think:

Like in the first picture the Amphibian Gagarin with rocket, the hands are wrong, but is the dial one of those fakes too? 
Despite the hands having no lume, is the first Komandirskie correct?
The Generalskie to the right seems okay, but is it ..... ?

In the second picture a gold plated 2214 Komandirskie. To me the "1" of the "12" seems a bit "funny" and perhaps fiddled with?

The 3rd picture a 3133 Poljot; that one seems okay to me.

There is more, but other brands.

Hope to hear you opinion and help ;-)


----------



## bpmurray

EndeavourDK said:


> In the second picture a gold plated 2214 Komandirskie. To me the "1" of the "12" seems a bit "funny" and perhaps fiddled with?


These old Komandirskie's always had really wonky numbers. That said, I agree the "1" looks like a slightly different color. This could be as simple as the top layer of lume and dirt having been scraped off accidentally, or it could be a re-lume, but its impossible to tell from this photo.

Here is mine for reference:


----------



## bpmurray

Double post, sorry


----------



## EndeavourDK

bpmurray said:


> These old Komandirskie's always had really wonky numbers. That said, I agree the "1" looks like a slightly different color. This could be as simple as the top layer of lume and dirt having been scraped off accidentally, or it could be a re-lume, but its impossible to tell from this photo.


Your "1" looks much more convincing. The original picture I received was quite large, so I could enlarge the "12" and I like to hear what your thoughts are now? Compared to your watch it seems that somebody has been working on the "1" and it is as if the old lume layer is still (partly?) underneath .......
Also the color doesn't make sense compared to any of the other surrounding lume, be it the other hour stripes or the hands...... :think:


----------



## Avidfan

@EndeavourDK, Here's an image from the 1990 catalogue for the first watch which I think is OK except for the lume loss on the hands:









The 091 Generalskie also looks good :-!, and I agree with comrade bpmurray on the gold plated Komandirskie, that leaves the Gagarin which I'm not too sure about and as you say there are known fakes of this dial and also lots of genuine minor variations.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> @EndeavourDK, Here's an image from the 1990 catalogue for the first watch which I think is OK except for the lume loss on the hands:
> 
> The 091 Generalskie also looks good :-!, and I agree with comrade bpmurray on the gold plated Komandirskie, that leaves the Gagarin which I'm not too sure about and as you say there are known fakes of this dial and also lots of genuine minor variations.


Just to give a closer look, I enlarged the Gagarin as well. That the hands were wrong was for me a red flash-light and the owner admitted that has been warned before that his dial could be a fake.
Can anybody confirm fake or legit ?


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> it seems that somebody has been working on the "1" and it is as if the old lume layer is still (partly?) underneath .......
> Also the color doesn't make sense compared to any of the other surrounding lume, be it the other hour stripes or the hands...... :think:


Having a closer look at the "12" it looks to me that the top layer of lume has been scratched off leaving clean lume, note that there is a little lume loss to the top of the "2" of "12" also and the scratch carries across to the "1"


----------



## Avidfan

@EndeavourDK, Look at "Made in" at the bottom of the Gagarin dial, the 4th letter along looks unlike any of my Soviet Vostoks :think:


----------



## bpmurray

Avidfan said:


> Having a closer look at the "12" it looks to me that the top layer of lume has been scratched off leaving clean lume, note that there is a little lume loss to the top of the "2" of "12" also and the scratch carries across to the "1"


Agree with this. The lume also looks thinner on the 1, if that makes sense. I can't guarantee that this number wasn't re-lumed, but it doesn't seem like the most likely scenario. The dial is in otherwise fantastic condition, and everything else is authentic. Hard to tell from the photos, but the dials on these are a really brilliant purple that is quite nice in real life.


----------



## Jh141188

Hi guy, as a newbie in this subject, what your thoughts on the originality of this? 1980’s amphibian


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## Avidfan

Jh141188 said:


> Hi guy, as a newbie in this subject, what your thoughts on the originality of this? 1980's amphibian


It's a nice example but it should have silver hands to match the silver hour markers and frame around the date window.

And the 420 case was introduced around 1990.


----------



## RussianDiver

Hello again, what are your thoughts on this watch? Does everything seem original?

















View attachment 14189257


----------



## schnurrp

RussianDiver said:


> Hello again, what are your thoughts on this watch? Does everything seem original?
> 
> View attachment 14189247
> 
> 
> View attachment 14189251
> 
> 
> View attachment 14189257


I believe it should have a domed crown and the second hand should be either red or nickel-plated like this one: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipMQ7auHZHsSLnQyNXkhOLcQ3c3NrYV2Ljz6ApVb


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> @EndeavourDK, Look at "Made in" at the bottom of the Gagarin dial, the 4th letter along looks unlike any of my Soviet Vostoks :think:


I compared the "Made in" with all my other CCCP watches and I do agree with you. None of mine do have the 4th letter anywhere close in shape. My compliments for your efforts, perseverance and eagle-eyes :-!
As for the older gold-plated Komandirskie; the lume may (or may not) have been scraped off, but it was one of the first things I noticed and knowing myself that would bother & annoy me. Despite its further overall beauty, it has to be a pass.

Thanks bpmurray and Avidfan for all your help :-! ;-)


----------



## RussianDiver

schnurrp said:


> I believe it should have a domed crown and the second hand should be either red or nickel-plated like this one:


I have another question about these watches. Do the watches with "Made in USSR" on the dial have the CCCP Seal on the caseback, or are those only the watches with "сделано в CCCP" on the dial?


----------



## jimzilla

*Re: Franken of the week...*

I need an opinion on this watch, Is it franken or just doesn't have the correct parts? thank yo


----------



## Odessa200

RussianDiver said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it should have a domed crown and the second hand should be either red or nickel-plated like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> I have another question about these watches. Do the watches with "Made in USSR" on the dial have the CCCP Seal on the caseback, or are those only the watches with "сделано в CCCP" on the dial?
Click to expand...

If I got your question right, it is about the Quality Mark that some products could be awarded based on their high quality. I would say this mark can only be found on domestic products (CCCP, Cyrillic versions). I have not seen an export variant with such marks.


----------



## Avidfan

*Re: Franken of the week...*



jimzilla said:


> I need an opinion on this watch, Is it franken or just doesn't have the correct parts? thank you


Your "Red star rising" looks fine to me, probably made in 1992 as it's not marked "CCCP" but has a serial number on the back, this is one watch where the case and bezel don't have the same finish, the case should be chrome and the bezel TiN so the watch is correct.



jimzilla said:


> I have another one I need an opinion on, thanks.


The textured blue sub also looks correct, as with any dial in a 33 case the presence of the original dial feet will authenticate the watch, as a type 33 dial will only fit into a type 33 case (but I'm sure you know this )


----------



## EndeavourDK

*Re: Franken of the week...*



Avidfan said:


> Your "Red star rising" looks fine to me, probably made in 1992 as it's not marked "CCCP" but has a serial number on the back, this is one watch where the case and bezel don't have the same finish, the case should be chrome and the bezel TiN so the watch is correct.


Are you 100% sure that the bezel has to be "tin" ? I've seen multiple examples with the case being chrome and the bezel being "Copper". Not to say that all the watches on Google are right, but if one searches "Vostok rising sun" and take the "pictures" option, there a plenty with are chrome housing & "copper"-bezel. Even though it's a bit of an odd combination (case/bezel), but the "Copper" bezel suites the dial & hands much better than a "tin"-bezel.
Please reconfirm, even if it was for my own education ..... thanks ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> If I got your question right, it is about the Quality Mark that some products could be awarded based on their high quality. I would say this mark can only be found on domestic products (CCCP, Cyrillic versions). I have not seen an export variant with such marks.


That was a good question from RussianDiver. I have a few of those case backs and was never sure to which model / period they belonged to? Is there such a thing that these "Quality sign" case-backs were most often found on "this" model during "that" period? :think:


----------



## Avidfan

*Re: Franken of the week...*



EndeavourDK said:


> Are you 100% sure that the bezel has to be "tin" ? I've seen multiple examples with the case being chrome and the bezel being "Copper". Not to say that all the watches on Google are right, but if one searches "Vostok rising sun" and take the "pictures" option, there a plenty with are chrome housing & "copper"
> 
> You've misread my post, TiN = Titanium Nitride a golden protective layer put on metal items: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitride, and as I said before the cases on these are chrome and the bezels TiN
> 
> Don't know why the quote didn't work properly :-s


----------



## EndeavourDK

*Re: Franken of the week...*



Avidfan said:


> EndeavourDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you 100% sure that the bezel has to be "tin" ? I've seen multiple examples with the case being chrome and the bezel being "Copper". Not to say that all the watches on Google are right, but if one searches "Vostok rising sun" and take the "pictures" option, there a plenty with are chrome housing & "copper"
> 
> You've misread my post, TiN = Titanium Nitride a golden protective layer put on metal items: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitride, and as I said before the cases on these are chrome and the bezels TiN
> 
> Don't know why the quote didn't work properly :-s
> 
> 
> 
> The confusion comes from the fact that I'm not so into the chemical abbreviations. Thanks for the explanation :-!
> 
> (BTW; it seems that I wasn't the only one: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/franken-week-88091-140.html)
Click to expand...


----------



## Avidfan

*Re: Franken of the week...*

@EndeavourDK, I'm just too lazy to type Titanium nitride all the time :-d


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I got your question right, it is about the Quality Mark that some products could be awarded based on their high quality. I would say this mark can only be found on domestic products (CCCP, Cyrillic versions). I have not seen an export variant with such marks.
> 
> 
> 
> That was a good question from RussianDiver. I have a few of those case backs and was never sure to which model / period they belonged to? Is there such a thing that these "Quality sign" case-backs were most often found on "this" model during "that" period?
Click to expand...

You can read a bit here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_quality_mark_of_the_USSR

The mark was quite common though the soviet time. Most watches would get it (and lose and get). It can be found on toilet plungers and TV and pretty much on everything that was made well. So unfortunately you will not be able to use it to better identify a model or year of the watch.

If you are talking about Vostoks back covers, I had posted a topic with some guidelines how to match them. Have you seen it?


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> You can read a bit here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_quality_mark_of_the_USSR
> 
> The mark was quite common though the soviet time. Most watches would get it (and lose and get). It can be found on toilet plungers and TV and pretty much on everything that was made well. So unfortunately you will not be able to use it to better identify a model or year of the watch.
> 
> If you are talking about Vostoks back covers, I had posted a topic with some guidelines how to match them. Have you seen it?


Thank you for the link ...... and no, I'm sorry I haven't read your guideline ..... could you please "take me by the hand"?


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can read a bit here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_quality_mark_of_the_USSR
> 
> The mark was quite common though the soviet time. Most watches would get it (and lose and get). It can be found on toilet plungers and TV and pretty much on everything that was made well. So unfortunately you will not be able to use it to better identify a model or year of the watch.
> 
> If you are talking about Vostoks back covers, I had posted a topic with some guidelines how to match them. Have you seen it?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the link ...... and no, I'm sorry I haven't read your guideline ..... could you please "take me by the hand"?
Click to expand...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/gene...aterproof-vostok-4939311.html#/topics/4939311


----------



## EndeavourDK

*Re: Franken of the week...*



Avidfan said:


> @EndeavourDK, I'm just too lazy to type Titanium nitride all the time :-d


Understandably, but the risk is that people like me do sink even deeper in the "land of confusion" :-d
(Genesis, 1986; 



)


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Franken of the week...*



EndeavourDK said:


> Understandably, but the risk is that people like me do sink even deeper in the "land of confusion" :-d
> (Genesis, 1986;
> 
> 
> 
> )


This is a condition hard to avoid for collectors of Russian watches.


----------



## EndeavourDK

*Re: Franken of the week...*



schnurrp said:


> This is a condition hard to avoid for collectors of Russian watches.


Hence: "even deeper" :-d


----------



## Odessa200

Bought this Zim on an impulse sometime back. Not sure why 🙂. But I have never seen any dial like that. What do you think?


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades I hope all is well my friends. I am in need of some watch authentication. Thank you in advance, best regards james


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades I hope all is well my friends. I am in need of some watch authentication. Thank you in advance, best regards james


A franken (IMHO of course) note how the dial and movement sit a little low in the case, this case type (code unknown) was made for the 2414A movement only.

All original parts but I'm not too sure what case that dial would've originally been in...


----------



## Avidfan

Here's an example of the 2414A version of this dial in the same case which I believe to be correct:









But as with any Vostok made in the 1994-2000 era it's difficult to know for sure...


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Bought this Zim on an impulse sometime back. Not sure why 🙂. But I have never seen any dial like that. What do you think?


An interesting dial, comrade, and Zims are very hard to authenticate due to a large number of dials and little in the way of catalog pictures. I would have to say that's probably the only one of those in existence, if you know what I mean, but maybe somebody else has one, too.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Here's an example of the 2414A version of this dial in the same case which I believe to be correct:
> But as with any Vostok made in the 1994-2000 era it's difficult to know for sure...


Compare the waves around the sub of the watch Avidfan puts forward as believed to be correct, the CCCP dial in an Amphibian I have (which I believe is correct) and the waves of the dial / watch under question ...... for sure a difference :think:
The waves on my dial do pretty well match up with Avidfans dial. But perhaps there are many different versions post Soviet?


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bought this Zim on an impulse sometime back. Not sure why 🙂. But I have never seen any dial like that. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> An interesting dial, comrade, and Zims are very hard to authenticate due to a large number of dials and little in the way of catalog pictures. I would have to say that's probably the only one of those in existence, if you know what I mean, but maybe somebody else has one, too.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Will keep searching 🙂


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Compare the waves around the sub of the watch Avidfan puts forward as believed to be correct, the CCCP dial in an Amphibian I have (which I believe is correct) and the waves of the dial / watch under question ...... for sure a difference :think:
> The waves on my dial do pretty well match up with Avidfans dial. But perhaps there are many different versions post Soviet?


I did notice the difference in the waves on the dial/watch in question and put it down to just being another variant of this dial design as it looks to be of original Chistopol manufacture.

Your version of this dial is well documented in the 1993 catalogue so there's no mystery as to where it belongs.


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you very much for chiming in Avidfan. If I am to understand correctly..... the case is 2414-A specific and the movement in my watch is a 2409 so that is why the dial face has a wee bit of a gap?
So the fix would be to use a 2414 movement under my dial face?


----------



## Avidfan

@jimzilla, If you're not worried about authenticity then yes this would close the gap up a little as the 2414A is a little thicker, but of course the dial should have a 2409A movement and the dial and movement look like they have always been together but I think just been recased.

I call this case a type 33 with 3 o'clock crown just as a way of identifying it as it's not in any of the catalogues and most examples I've seen have a 2414A movement with the usual Komandirskie dials. 

Your watch might be correct but when I see a large gap between the dial and the crystal ring it just doesn't look right to me, but I'm not at all sure what case it would've originally been in so it might be better to leave "as is" until a catalogue or other documentation turns up for this case :think:


----------



## capannelle

I have this automatic version with 2416b


----------



## EndeavourDK

capannelle said:


> I have this automatic version with 2416b


I have to say that I prefer the "date" version above the one I have and I'm "hunting" for a "dated" one. I do assume, in order to be correct, that it has to have a "SU" stamp on the winding-bridge of the 2416b automatic movement and for the anti-magnetic requirements a copper winding-stem and a copper shield integrated in the back cover ? :think:
Could you please show me some pictures of the movement and the back-cover, so I know how it supposed to look like ?
Thanks


----------



## capannelle

EndeavourDK said:


> I have to say that I prefer the "date" version above the one I have and I'm "hunting" for a "dated" one. I do assume, in order to be correct, that it has to have a "SU" stamp on the winding-bridge of the 2416b automatic movement and for the anti-magnetic requirements a copper winding-stem and a copper shield integrated in the back cover ? :think:
> Could you please show me some pictures of the movement and the back-cover, so I know how it supposed to look like ?
> Thanks


The copper shield is integrated in the back cover.

I have a picture of the back cover, but not a picture of the 2416b movement


----------



## schnurrp

I think Vostok to provide antimagnetic protection used either a removable ferrous (plain steel) shield covering the movements on their types 119, 320, and 470 amphibians designated "antimagnetic" or the automatic antimagnetic versions like the one pictured below had what I assume is an integral ferrous shield (copper would be obvious in color and much more expensive) built into the stainless steel back. A removable shield would not work because of the action of the automatic counterweight.

I believe copper is too soft to be used as crown shaft.


----------



## EndeavourDK

schnurrp said:


> I think Vostok to provide antimagnetic protection used either a removable ferrous (plain steel) shield covering the movements on their types 119, 320, and 470 amphibians designated "antimagnetic" or the automatic antimagnetic versions like the one pictured below had what I assume is an integral ferrous shield (copper would be obvious in color and much more expensive) built into the stainless steel back. A removable shield would not work because of the action of the automatic counterweight.
> 
> I believe copper is too soft to be used as crown shaft.


I've to admit that I never looked into the Anti-magnetic feature deeply, and you are right in saying that the removable ferrous shields are just plain steel. I just performed the magnet test. Perhaps it was the color which made me think it was a kind of copper-alloy, similar with the winding stem.
This begs the following question: how does this anti-magnetic feature actually work? Does the answer lay in a kind of "Faraday-cage" principle or is it, when studied closely, more a sales pitch?
If this anti-magnetic indeed works, to protect the movement for (high?) magnetic exposure, I guess the dial and metal movement-holder-ring have to be an integral part of the shielding (assuming it's a kind of Faraday-cage principle) :think:


----------



## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> I've to admit that I never looked into the Anti-magnetic feature deeply, and you are right in saying that the removable ferrous shields are just plain steel. I just performed the magnet test. Perhaps it was the color which made me think it was a kind of copper-alloy, similar with the winding stem.
> This begs the following question: how does this anti-magnetic feature actually work? Does the answer lay in a kind of "Faraday-cage" principle or is it, when studied closely, more a sales pitch?
> If this anti-magnetic indeed works, to protect the movement for (high?) magnetic exposure, I guess the dial and metal movement-holder-ring have to be an integral part of the shielding (assuming it's a kind of Faraday-cage principle) :think:


The anti-magnetic shields are made from magnetizable metals. The magnetic lines are diverted along the walls of the hollow cap of the shield. The shield also demagnetizes quickly when out of the magnetic field. The front of the watch is protected by the metal of the dial, I think.
The most magneticly sensitive part of a watch is the ballance spring, so it's the main target of protection. Now, with all the technology we are surrounded, there are plenty of magnetic sources arround us. So it is still a good featute of a mechanical watch.
Ivan

PS: yeah, high magnetic exposure, like big loudspeakers or electric motors. The Eart's field is weak enough to have an impact on the ballance.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> The anti-magnetic shields are made from magnetizable metals. The magnetic lines are diverted along the walls of the hollow cap of the shield. The shield also demagnetizes quickly when out of the magnetic field. The front of the watch is protected by the metal of the dial, I think.
> The most magneticly sensitive part of a watch is the ballance spring, so it's the main target of protection. Now, with all the technology we are surrounded, there are plenty of magnetic sources arround us. So it is still a good featute of a mechanical watch.
> Ivan
> 
> PS: yeah, high magnetic exposure, like big loudspeakers or electric motors. The Eart's field is weak enough to have an impact on the ballance.


Thank you, so reading your explanation it works on a kind of Faraday cage principle. Tomorrow I like to dig a bit deeper how it all precisely works ....... interesting stuff ;-)


----------



## hseldon

Am I right in thinking that Luch in the au20 case should have the old Minsk Watch Factory logo on the movement? I need an au20 case and I'm thinking this may be a franken, but before I go for it and dismantle it I'd like to be sure...


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

!


----------



## schnurrp

EndeavourDK said:


> Thank you, so reading your explanation it works on a kind of Faraday cage principle. Tomorrow I like to dig a bit deeper how it all precisely works ....... interesting stuff ;-)


Yes, but the Vostok solution along with other manufacturers provides some protection but not a complete cage. The dial is made of brass.

If you want to see a more serious attempt take a look at the Raketa 2610s from the '80s. They have, in addition to a removable steel shield behind the back, a steel disk behind the dial:









https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-2610-movement-593506.html

The First Moscow Poljus Polar exploration watch from the late '50s-early '60s is the only other soviet watch with the double shields that I'm familiar with: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/poljus?lightbox=dataItem-ixkfjppb


----------



## schnurrp

hseldon said:


> Am I right in thinking that Luch in the au20 case should have the old Minsk Watch Factory logo on the movement? I need an au20 case and I'm thinking this may be a franken, but before I go for it and dismantle it I'd like to be sure...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My Sekonda catalogs show that dial in '74 but not in '70 so it's an early '70s dial long after the discontinuation of the original Minsk trademark stamp. Looks correct to me.

Note: Has that watch had its lugs bent in to fit a narrow band? That may be hard to fix properly.


----------



## EndeavourDK

schnurrp said:


> Yes, but the Vostok solution along with other manufacturers provides some protection but not a complete cage. The dial is made of brass.
> 
> If you want to see a more serious attempt take a look at the Raketa 2610s from the '80s. They have, in addition to a removable steel shield behind the back, a steel disk behind the dial:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-2610-movement-593506.html
> 
> The First Moscow Poljus Polar exploration watch from the late '50s-early '60s is the only other soviet watch with the double shields that I'm familiar with: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/poljus?lightbox=dataItem-ixkfjppb


Fantastic read and it takes "old hands" like you to remember & find these old, but very interesting threads; so thank you very much :-!

Comparing the Raketa information with a Vostok, one could say to a certain extent, compared to the 2409, that the 2414 movement in an anti-magnetic Vostok (I guess that would be a Franken?) could perform slightly better due to it's iron calendar cover plate. Either way, the Faraday cage is by a Vostok everything but closed.
I've just tested a CCCP anti-magnetic dial (painted on either side) with a magnet, but the material seems to be an alloy (copper/brass??) and doesn't get attracted by the magnet. So this dial is for sure not a part of the cage.

Again, comparing to the serious Raketa efforts, is the Vostok "Anti-magnetic" feature, which has no front protection, to be taken serious or is it more a sales-pitch :think:


----------



## schnurrp

EndeavourDK said:


> Fantastic read and it takes "old hands" like you to remember & find these old, but very interesting threads; so thank you very much :-!
> 
> Comparing the Raketa information with a Vostok, one could say to a certain extent, compared to the 2409, that the 2414 movement in an anti-magnetic Vostok (I guess that would be a Franken?) could perform slightly better due to it's iron calendar cover plate. Either way, the Faraday cage is by a Vostok everything but closed.
> I've just tested a CCCP anti-magnetic dial (painted on either side) with a magnet, but the material seems to be an alloy (copper/brass??) and doesn't get attracted by the magnet. So this dial is for sure not a part of the cage.
> 
> Again, comparing to the serious Raketa efforts, is the Vostok "Anti-magnetic" feature, which has no front protection, to be taken serious or is it more a sales-pitch :think:


I don't know but I think this is a case where some is better than none so I believe it is to be taken seriously as an attempt to give some protection to the exposed balance from ordinary magnetic forces. The complete Faraday setup would only be useful where unusual magnetic forces are at work.

The most commonly used base material for all soviet cases and dials was brass.


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

sorry for the x-post but i realized this may be a better thread for this. Looking for the sunburst Scuba Dude and this one i THINk looks right? Any red flags or anything? I can't really tell wrt the dial but I think it looks right, but maybe a little dark?

View attachment 14203603

View attachment 14203605

View attachment 14203607

View attachment 14203609

View attachment 14203613

View attachment 14203615

View attachment 14203617

View attachment 14203619


----------



## Avidfan

-


rainbowbattlekid said:


> sorry for the x-post but I realized this may be a better thread for this. Looking for the sunburst Scuba Dude and this i THINk looks right? Any red flags or anything? I can't really tell wrt the dial but I think it looks right, but maybe a little dark?


I can't tell if the case is a stainless steel 420 for an amphibia or a type 92 in chromed brass for an auto-Komandirskie :think: but the Orca back is for an auto-komandirskie and the crown looks to be komandirskie also and the bezel is also the type found on the auto-komandirskie version of this watch.

The dial is post-Soviet and has amphibia hands and from the font on the calendar wheel you can date the movement to approx. 1995-2000.

If it's a amphibia then it's got the wrong bezel, crown and case back, if it's a auto-komandirskie then it's got the wrong hands, you would need to confirm the case material to know for sure.

I hope this helps you a little...


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> -
> 
> I can't tell if the case is a stainless steel 420 for an amphibia or a type 92 in chromed brass for an auto-Komandirskie :think: but the Orca back is for an auto-komandirskie and the crown looks to be komandirskie also and the bezel is also the type found on the auto-komandirskie version of this watch.
> 
> The dial is post-Soviet and has amphibia hands and from the font on the calendar wheel you can date the movement to approx. 1995-2000.
> 
> If it's a amphibia then it's got the wrong bezel, crown and case back, if it's a auto-komandirskie then it's got the wrong hands, you would need to confirm the case material to know for sure.
> 
> I hope this helps you a little...


Second Avidfan; I enlarged some pictures and the color difference between back-lid / case and some of the dents/scratches, the case looks very much like a Komandirskie 92. The Komandirskie 92 case has a much lower water-rating than the Amphibian 470 case which has a 200mtr water-rating.


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Second Avidfan; I enlarged some pictures and the color difference between back-lid / case and some of the dents/scratches, the case looks very much like a Komandirskie 92.


If it is a 92 case then it's an auto-komandirskie and the only thing "wrong" with it are the amphibia hands, but there might have been a crisis at the factory and the watch has always been like this :think: impossible to know...


----------



## Kamburov

schnurrp said:


> Yes, but the Vostok solution along with other manufacturers provides some protection but not a complete cage. The dial is made of brass.
> 
> If you want to see a more serious attempt take a look at the Raketa 2610s from the '80s. They have, in addition to a removable steel shield behind the back, a steel disk behind the dial:
> 
> View attachment 14203277
> 
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-2610-movement-593506.html
> 
> The First Moscow Poljus Polar exploration watch from the late '50s-early '60s is the only other soviet watch with the double shields that I'm familiar with: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/poljus?lightbox=dataItem-ixkfjppb


Cool to bring that up! Indeed, the 21j 2610 was developed for work in magnetic environment like electric powerplants, and the movement itself is supposed to have antimagnetic properties. No idea how many Gauss, but still much more serious than the vostok shield. My guess is the vostoks are covering the minimum requirements in the soviet union, which (gain guess) my be between 50 and 100 Gauss. I too am qurious about this.


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

hm. would that komandirskie still be good in like, pools/beach situations? I don't dive or anything

i don't terribly mind if the hands are the only thing off, as i probably actually prefer the amphibia hands, and i like that caseback.

the dial looks like the sunburst-style right? as opposed to that flatter blue/teal on some of them.

also, if anyone knows, what would be a good price for that? the seller is asking ~$130 but accepting offers


----------



## Avidfan

rainbowbattlekid said:


> hm. would that komandirskie still be good in like, pools/beach situations? I don't dive or anything
> 
> i don't terribly mind if the hands are the only thing off, as i probably actually prefer the amphibia hands, and i like that caseback.
> 
> the dial looks like the sunburst-style right? as opposed to that flatter blue/teal on some of them.


Don't assume any WR at all on a watch of this age, you could of course replace the rubber seals and then test for leaks with the movement taken out or you could just drop the dial/movement into a brand new stainless 420 case.

And a scuba dude dial from this era will be of the sunburst-style and in a different league to anything you can buy new now.


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

hm yeah the seller said he tested it and it's waterproof, so maybe they've replaced the seals...


----------



## Odessa200

rainbowbattlekid said:


> hm yeah the seller said he tested it and it's waterproof, so maybe they've replaced the seals...


It all depends on: do you know/trust the seller? If you, you would not be asking 'is this legit' question. Right? If you do not, then I would stay on the safe side. 130$ is not such a big sum for a watch. But I just hate to see an old watch getting ruined. Most of the watches sold are 'serviced' and 'tested'. Reality is: many are not. To service and test a watch one needs to spend more than the watch cost... I know of stories when people meticulously picked fully original vintage Okean only to play active sports in it. Why?

I know, you only mentioned normal water activities. If seals are replaced and treated with silicone the watch should be able to hold it. Just make sure to service it every 2-3 years as the manual prescribes. Otherwise, one day, it will fail. ?


----------



## hseldon

schnurrp said:


> My Sekonda catalogs show that dial in '74 but not in '70 so it's an early '70s dial long after the discontinuation of the original Minsk trademark stamp. Looks correct to me.
> 
> Note: Has that watch had its lugs bent in to fit a narrow band? That may be hard to fix properly.


Thanks, it does look like the lugs might have been bent a bit. Anyhow, I was hoping that movement belonged in an au10 case to harvest the old style one. Think I'll leave it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

Odessa200 said:


> It all depends on: do you know/trust the seller? If you, you would not be asking 'is this legit' question. Right? If you do not, then I would stay on the safe side. 130$ is not such a big sum for a watch. But I just hate to see an old watch getting ruined. Most of the watches sold are 'serviced' and 'tested'. Reality is: many are not. To service and test a watch one needs to spend more than the watch cost... I know of stories when people meticulously picked fully original vintage Okean only to play active sports in it. Why?
> 
> I know, you only mentioned normal water activities. If seals are replaced and treated with silicone the watch should be able to hold it. Just make sure to service it every 2-3 years as the manual prescribes. Otherwise, one day, it will fail. ?


yeah I dunno. I'm not really knowledgeable enough to feel like I can trust a seller one way or the other, at least on eBay. It's more just that I don't know if that's a fair price for this particular one or not, and if it is, it's more than most of my watches (i don't have many and they've all been fairly cheap) so I just want to be sure before plunking down over $100 on it. Thanks for the info


----------



## Odessa200

rainbowbattlekid said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It all depends on: do you know/trust the seller? If you, you would not be asking 'is this legit' question. Right? If you do not, then I would stay on the safe side. 130$ is not such a big sum for a watch. But I just hate to see an old watch getting ruined. Most of the watches sold are 'serviced' and 'tested'. Reality is: many are not. To service and test a watch one needs to spend more than the watch cost... I know of stories when people meticulously picked fully original vintage Okean only to play active sports in it. Why?
> 
> I know, you only mentioned normal water activities. If seals are replaced and treated with silicone the watch should be able to hold it. Just make sure to service it every 2-3 years as the manual prescribes. Otherwise, one day, it will fail. ?
> 
> 
> 
> yeah I dunno. I'm not really knowledgeable enough to feel like I can trust a seller one way or the other, at least on eBay. It's more just that I don't know if that's a fair price for this particular one or not, and if it is, it's more than most of my watches (i don't have many and they've all been fairly cheap) so I just want to be sure before plunking down over $100 on it. Thanks for the info
Click to expand...

I actually cannot see the links you added. Can you post again?


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

Odessa200 said:


> I actually cannot see the links you added. Can you post again?


should be visible here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/amphibia-420-blue-dials-1805858-post49073533.html#post49073533


----------



## Odessa200

rainbowbattlekid said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I actually cannot see the links you added. Can you post again?
> 
> 
> 
> should be visible here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/amphibia-420-blue-dials-1805858-post49073533.html#post49073533
Click to expand...

Looks good from the outside. Any pics on the movement? Looks like it is from 1993 (after ussr but before russia). I think 150 is a bit steep but this is your call.


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good from the outside. Any pics on the movement? Looks like it is from 1993 (after ussr but before russia). I think 150 is a bit steep but this is your call.


nah this is all the pictures i have. he also is accepting offers. what would be a fair price to offer him?


----------



## Odessa200

rainbowbattlekid said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good from the outside. Any pics on the movement? Looks like it is from 1993 (after ussr but before russia). I think 150 is a bit steep but this is your call.
> 
> 
> 
> nah this is all the pictures i have. he also is accepting offers. what would be a fair price to offer him?
Click to expand...

Start with the 1/2 price. You will probably meet half way around 100-120. Again, this is quite personal. To some people this watch worth 20$. Some can pay 500$. There are a lot of these watches for sale. Find the one that you like 🙂


----------



## Balticum

Hello!

I would like to buy watch "Moskva". Found this one- looks good, but I'm not sure about authenticity (dial digit painting, hands). What do you think?


----------



## Odessa200

Balticum said:


> Hello!
> 
> I would like to buy watch "Moskva". Found this one- looks good, but I'm not sure about authenticity (dial digit painting, hands). What do you think?
> View attachment 14206251


I think it has new lume. Plus, as per catalog, the lume should be just on the hands.


----------



## Balticum

Thank you for catalog picture! Tried to google by model name Москва часы чн 183k. Looks like lume should be on digits, but I think you are right- it's repainted lume. From one side it's not bad as it's restoration. Find similar model in which digit lume paint is not perfect as well (second picture).


----------



## miroman

Odessa200 said:


> I think it has new lume. Plus, as per catalog, the lume should be just on the hands.


In the catalog is written "Цифры покрыты светомассой", means "Hands have lume"

Regards, Miro.


----------



## Odessa200

miroman said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it has new lume. Plus, as per catalog, the lume should be just on the hands.
> 
> 
> 
> In the catalog is written "Цифры покрыты светомассой", means "Hands have lume"
> 
> Regards, Miro.
Click to expand...

You are right. My bad. I actually have precisely same Moskva with exactly same lume redone (probably by the same shop) and I know it is redone because, aside from looking new, it is completely radiation free. While original lume will be a bit radioactive.


----------



## bpmurray

Odessa200 said:


> You are right. My bad. I actually have precisely same Moskva with exactly same lume redone (probably by the same shop) and I know it is redone because, aside from looking new, it is completely radiation free. While original lume will be a bit radioactive.


I disagree. The lume on the dial at least looks fine to me. As for the hands, impossible to tell, but its well within the color range of vintage lume for the early 1960's, and consistent with the lack of weathering of the dial, case, and crown, and matches the pigmentation of the dial lume -- it appears slightly brighter because of the thinness of the lume layer, and the open space behind it. Additionally, radium lume was never this teal/gray color but was more of an off-white. Finally, it is reported that radium lume was phased out in 1960 in the USSR (earlier than in the USA/Switzerland) and this watch certainly could date later than that, as late as 1964. Its my opinion that this watch (the parts we can see, at least) are original, and it just sat in a drawer for a few decades.


----------



## Odessa200

bpmurray said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right. My bad. I actually have precisely same Moskva with exactly same lume redone (probably by the same shop) and I know it is redone because, aside from looking new, it is completely radiation free. While original lume will be a bit radioactive.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. The lume on the dial at least looks fine to me. As for the hands, impossible to tell, but its well within the color range of vintage lume for the early 1960's, and consistent with the lack of weathering of the dial, case, and crown, and matches the pigmentation of the dial lume -- it appears slightly brighter because of the thinness of the lume layer, and the open space behind it. Additionally, radium lume was never this teal/gray color but was more of an off-white. Finally, it is reported that radium lume was phased out in 1960 in the USSR (earlier than in the USA/Switzerland) and this watch certainly could date later than that, as late as 1964. Its my opinion that this watch (the parts we can see, at least) are original, and it just sat in a drawer for a few decades.
Click to expand...

Could be. Could be. From my observations, this particular model is quite frequently appears in quite good state. Yes, maybe someone acquired a whole case of these. Every single of my watches from that time are radioactive. If there is a lume there is a radiation. I agree, in theory this could be 100% original. Maybe closer examination under the microscope can answer that. In any case, the watch is decent. Lume looks original enough. And the price is affordable. What else ? 🙂


----------



## Kamburov

miroman said:


> In the catalog is written "Цифры покрыты светомассой", means "Hands have lume"
> 
> Regards, Miro.


"numbers have lume", but hands are lumed too according to catalog. I'm sure Miro just typed too fast :-d , as his russian is good.
Posting my old moskvas of the mentioned models, for comparison. The lume on both is original, although not in best condition.
Ivan


----------



## Odessa200

Had one of my watches on yesterday and started doubting if the dial is original or not. Basically, we all know that original Poljots have the groves on the dial with the parallel sides while the fakes have the bended sides. Only until I got home and looked under the microscope I got my answer. What would you say by looking at the photo? Just curious. Also, anyone has a catalog photo of this model? Cannot find. 
Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Had one of my watches on yesterday and started doubting if the dial is original or not. Basically, we all know that original Poljots have the groves on the dial with the parallel sides while the fakes have the bended sides. Only until I got home and looked under the microscope I got my answer. What would you say by looking at the photo? Just curious. Also, anyone has a catalog photo of this model? Cannot find.
> Thanks


The straight side slash shape is most applicable to Poljots with all markings formed by the "slashes". Here's at least one Poljot that has the other type of slash:









and from a 1970 catalog:









I assume yours is a 2409 movement and it looks good to me although I've not seen it before.


----------



## bpmurray

Odessa200 said:


> Had one of my watches on yesterday and started doubting if the dial is original or not. Basically, we all know that original Poljots have the groves on the dial with the parallel sides while the fakes have the bended sides. Only until I got home and looked under the microscope I got my answer. What would you say by looking at the photo? Just curious. Also, anyone has a catalog photo of this model? Cannot find.
> Thanks


I don't think that this one ever appeared in a catalog, but it matches with the example in the collection of mroatman (EDIT: your crown looks a little chunky, that might be a replacement):









I've also never seen this particular dial faked. The bent/straight slashes rule is with 2209's in mind, not 24xx or 26xx Poljots.


----------



## Balticum

bpmurray said:


> I disagree. The lume on the dial at least looks fine to me. As for the hands, impossible to tell, but its well within the color range of vintage lume for the early 1960's, and consistent with the lack of weathering of the dial, case, and crown, and matches the pigmentation of the dial lume -- it appears slightly brighter because of the thinness of the lume layer, and the open space behind it. Additionally, radium lume was never this teal/gray color but was more of an off-white. Finally, it is reported that radium lume was phased out in 1960 in the USSR (earlier than in the USA/Switzerland) and this watch certainly could date later than that, as late as 1964. Its my opinion that this watch (the parts we can see, at least) are original, and it just sat in a drawer for a few decades.


Thanks everybody, I decided go for it (just will ask for some movement pictures as there wasn't any). Radiation hot topic now- just finished watching "Chernobyl" last episode.


----------



## Odessa200

bpmurray said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had one of my watches on yesterday and started doubting if the dial is original or not. Basically, we all know that original Poljots have the groves on the dial with the parallel sides while the fakes have the bended sides. Only until I got home and looked under the microscope I got my answer. What would you say by looking at the photo? Just curious. Also, anyone has a catalog photo of this model? Cannot find.
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this one ever appeared in a catalog, but it matches with the example in the collection of mroatman (EDIT: your crown looks a little chunky, that might be a replacement):
> 
> View attachment 14207363
> 
> 
> I've also never seen this particular dial faked. The bent/straight slashes rule is with 2209's in mind, not 24xx or 26xx Poljots.
Click to expand...

Thanks scnurrp and bpmurray. I thought same. Under the scope it is clearly visible the dial is original (old). There is oxidation that is consistent with the hands, etc. Somehow this design is not in the catalogs we have. I am skeptical about the WC as well but in the catalogs, you can see some models are fitted with the chunky WCs. Who knows. I may replace the WC... Thanks again for the consultation!


----------



## schnurrp

bpmurray said:


> I don't think that this one ever appeared in a catalog, but it matches with the example in the collection of mroatman (EDIT: your crown looks a little chunky, that might be a replacement):
> 
> View attachment 14207363
> 
> 
> I've also never seen this particular dial faked. The bent/straight slashes rule is with 2209's in mind, not 24xx or 26xx Poljots.


I have found that except for a small handfull of examples all Poljot dial slashes are straight-sided, regardless the movement, e. g.:

41-m








2408








2415








2609(slim)


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> bpmurray said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this one ever appeared in a catalog, but it matches with the example in the collection of mroatman (EDIT: your crown looks a little chunky, that might be a replacement):
> 
> View attachment 14207363
> 
> 
> I've also never seen this particular dial faked. The bent/straight slashes rule is with 2209's in mind, not 24xx or 26xx Poljots.
> 
> 
> 
> I have found that except for a small handfull of examples all Poljot dial slashes are straight-sided, regardless the movement, e. g.:
> 
> 41-m
> View attachment 14209481
> 
> 
> 2408
> View attachment 14209483
> 
> 
> 2415
> View attachment 14209485
> 
> 
> 2609(slim)
> View attachment 14209487
Click to expand...

Yep. And sometimes the slashes change: early Cosmos have very straight slashes. Later Cosmos has a bit of the curvature/pointed slashes.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Yep. And sometimes the slashes change: early Cosmos have very straight slashes. Later Cosmos has a bit of the curvature/pointed slashes.


I'm not sure about that, comrade. There weren't many made and the only catalog picture I have shows straight slashes. Lots of repros out there but like many other Russian watch questions, I guess I'm open to the possibility.

If I was in the market I'd be looking for straight slashes.

From 1970 catalog:









Dash's:









Antonov's:









View attachment 14209809


----------



## EndeavourDK

Not that I've high confidence in the authenticity of these watches, but has the dial any originality / authenticity :think:
The seller seems to have a lot of these dials and are sold as "NOS" Vostok Commanders. 
Various flavors, that is to say; same case, same dial but different (modern) hands. (Red calendar numbers => 2214 movement?)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_...ANDER+Military+Soviet+Russian+WOSTOK&_sacat=0

Fake / legit / total Franken :-s

Hope to hear your "verdict" ;-)


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. And sometimes the slashes change: early Cosmos have very straight slashes. Later Cosmos has a bit of the curvature/pointed slashes.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about that, comrade. There weren't many made and the only catalog picture I have shows straight slashes. Lots of repros out there but like many other Russian watch questions, I guess I'm open to the possibility.
> 
> If I was in the market I'd be looking for straight slashes.
> 
> From 1970 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 14209771
> 
> 
> Dash's:
> 
> View attachment 14209767
> 
> 
> Antonov's:
> 
> View attachment 14209805
> 
> 
> View attachment 14209809
Click to expand...

These is what I 'curved'/pointed. This is the later and fully original Cosmos. Agree. I know the fakes you refer. But there is a very early Cosmos. The slashes are 100% straight and mot pointed at all. I will send you the photo when I find it.


----------



## Odessa200

Odessa200 said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. And sometimes the slashes change: early Cosmos have very straight slashes. Later Cosmos has a bit of the curvature/pointed slashes.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about that, comrade. There weren't many made and the only catalog picture I have shows straight slashes. Lots of repros out there but like many other Russian watch questions, I guess I'm open to the possibility.
> 
> If I was in the market I'd be looking for straight slashes.
> 
> From 1970 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 14209771
> 
> 
> Dash's:
> 
> View attachment 14209767
> 
> 
> Antonov's:
> 
> View attachment 14209805
> 
> 
> View attachment 14209809
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> These is what I 'curved'/pointed. This is the later and fully original Cosmos. Agree. I know the fakes you refer. But there is a very early Cosmos. The slashes are 100% straight and mot pointed at all. I will send you the photo when I find it.
Click to expand...

Here is the Cosmos with the straight slashes. The owner mentioned it is from 1963.


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Not that I've high confidence in the authenticity of these watches, but has the dial any originality / authenticity :think:
> The seller seems to have a lot of these dials and are sold as "NOS" Vostok Commanders.
> Various flavors, that is to say; same case, same dial but different (modern) hands. (Red calendar numbers => 2214 movement?)


They are all franken, looks like the seller got a hoard of original Soviet dials (one is post-Soviet) and put them in some NOS Vostok cases (not sure of the case code number for these) and put whatever movements he had to hand to complete the watch :-s

The red calendar font could be one of several calibre, have a look in the 1977 Vostok catalogue which shows lots of movements and you'll see what I mean


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Here is the Cosmos with the straight slashes. The owner mentioned it is from 1963.


Interesting. Too bad the picture lacks clarity. The slashes, if that's what they are, appear to have square ends and one could say they appear to have been printed on the dial. The graphics look correct although heavier than you usually see.

As a follow-up here's another catalog picture from '66:


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the Cosmos with the straight slashes. The owner mentioned it is from 1963.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Too bad the picture lacks clarity. The slashes, if that's what they are, appear to have square ends and one could say they appear to have been printed on the dial. The graphics look correct although heavier than you usually see.
> 
> As a follow-up here's another catalog picture from '66:
> 
> View attachment 14211913
Click to expand...

Indeed the slashes are not slashes. Maybe print. Maybe actually glued to the dial.


----------



## EndeavourDK

I've seen this "intriguing" watch on eBay; A Komandirskie 70(?) or 92(?) case, allegedly Anti-magnetic features and Amphibian hands.
Not sure if the lume-pip bezel is exclusively Amphibian? 
Interestingly there are no hour-lume-dots on the dial and by the looks of it, they've never been ....... why would this be; original / fake / reject / unfinished :think:

As I once understood, Komandirskies ( & Amphibians?) all do have lumed dials & hands ..... :think:

The seller has more "intriguing" combinations, but for me it's more about the dial ......


----------



## Straight_time

EndeavourDK said:


> I've seen this "intriguing" watch on eBay; A Komandirskie 70(?) or 92(?) case, allegedly Anti-magnetic features and Amphibian hands.
> Not sure if the lume-pip bezel is exclusively Amphibian?
> Interestingly there are no hour-lume-dots on the dial and by the looks of it, they've never been ....... why would this be; original / fake / reject / unfinished :think:
> 
> As I once understood, Komandirskies ( & Amphibians?) all do have lumed dials & hands ..... :think:
> 
> The seller has more "intriguing" combinations, but for me it's more about the dial ......


Frankenized Amphibia 2409A/020521 as seen on the 1993 catalog, with unfinished dial.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Straight_time said:


> Frankenized Amphibia 2409A/020521 as seen on the 2003 catalog, with unfinished dial.


Thanks !
Do you have a link to the 2003 catalog? I do have the 2001, 2002 and the next ones I have are is 2008 / 2010 / 2015.


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I've seen this "intriguing" watch on eBay; A Komandirskie 70(?) or 92(?) case, allegedly Anti-magnetic features and Amphibian hands.
> Not sure if the lume pip is exclusively Amphibian?
> Interestingly there are no hour-lume-dots on the dial and by the looks of it, they've never been.......why would this be; original / fake / reject / unfinished :think:
> 
> As I once understood, Komandirskies (and Amphibians?) all do have lumed dials and hands.......:think:
> 
> The seller has more "intriguing" combinations but for me it's more about the dial......


Well as comrade Straight_time says it's a franken, looks like a 92 case with a quite rare large flat "big-bird" case back that dates to 1995/1996 and in it's two-tab version was made exclusively for the 92 case with 2414A movement.

I've seen quite a few dials from 1992/93 on NOS watches with passport that have no lume on the dial and never have had, don't know why this is but probably the chaos of the time :think:

And that bezel with lume pip is for Amphibia only


----------



## Avidfan

From the 1993 catalogue:


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Well as comrade Straight_time says it's a franken, looks like a 92 case with a quite rare large flat "big-bird" case back that dates to 1995/1996 and in it's two-tab version was made exclusively for the 92 case with 2414A movement.
> 
> I've seen quite a few dials from 1992/93 on NOS watches with passport that have no lume on the dial and never have had, don't know why this is but probably the chaos of the time :think:
> 
> And that bezel with lume pip is for Amphibia only


Yes thank you both :-! 
I had no doubt about the Franken part of this watch, it was more about the dial. The 1993 catalogue makes sense and therefor I do assume that comrades Straight_time keyboard must have been playing up :-d
Also nice from you to re-confirm about the bezel, exclusively for an Amphibian.
Reading the rarity of the flat "big-bird" case back I thought I struck gold  ........ this until the 1995/1996 two-tab version was mentioned :-( 
Plenty of them but sadly only with one tab ...... :roll:
All having the tab on top, now I know how you could determine that it was a 92 housing ..... smart !

Thanks !


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## Avidfan

Here's a large "big bird" case back for a type 92 case with a regular size one for a 33,34,70,81 etc. case:


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## Straight_time

EndeavourDK said:


> Yes thank you both :-!
> I had no doubt about the Franken part of this watch, it was more about the dial. The 1993 catalogue makes sense and therefor I do assume that comrades Straight_time keyboard must have been playing up :-d


Ouch.









_(original post edited to avoid misleading)_


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## capannelle

EndeavourDK said:


> I've seen this "intriguing" watch on eBay; A Komandirskie 70(?) or 92(?) case, allegedly Anti-magnetic features and Amphibian hands.
> Not sure if the lume-pip bezel is exclusively Amphibian?
> Interestingly there are no hour-lume-dots on the dial and by the looks of it, they've never been ....... why would this be; original / fake / reject / unfinished :think:
> 
> As I once understood, Komandirskies ( & Amphibians?) all do have lumed dials & hands ..... :think:
> 
> The seller has more "intriguing" combinations, but for me it's more about the dial ......


The dial code is 234. Here in 320 case from the 1990 catalog


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## EndeavourDK

capannelle said:


> The dial code is 234. Here in 320 case from the 1990 catalog


It's a bit hard to say which of the two it is, the 234 you pointed out or the 521 comrade Avidfan mentioned. Looking at the thickness of the font of the dial in question, I lean to the 521 ........ but regardless which one it is, both the 234 and the 521 in the catalogues do have hour lume-dots whereas the dial in question, which was the point of my question, has not.
Therefor the dial in question looks to be legit, but for some reason "unfinished"........
Thanks for all the help :-!


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## capannelle

EndeavourDK said:


> It's a bit hard to say which of the two it is, the 234 you pointed out or the 521 comrade Avidfan mentioned. Looking at the thickness of the font of the dial in question, I lean to the 521 ........ but regardless which one it is, both the 234 and the 521 in the catalogues do have hour lume-dots whereas the dial in question, which was the point of my question, has not.
> Therefor the dial in question looks to be legit, but for some reason "unfinished"........
> Thanks for all the help :-!


These are the two dials from my amphibia collection


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## capannelle

EndeavourDK said:


> It's a bit hard to say which of the two it is, the 234 you pointed out or the 521 comrade Avidfan mentioned. Looking at the thickness of the font of the dial in question, I lean to the 521 ........ but regardless which one it is, both the 234 and the 521 in the catalogues do have hour lume-dots whereas the dial in question, which was the point of my question, has not.
> Therefor the dial in question looks to be legit, but for some reason "unfinished"........
> Thanks for all the help :-!


These are the two dials from my amphibia collection

View attachment 14219015


View attachment 14219017


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## thewatchadude

I think the 521 dial mentionned by Avidfan is a different one. It has a sort of shadow on the edge, which I think is a purpose design different from the 234.
Interestingly--or not--there is also a version of the 234 with only one kume dot at 12. Not sure whether it shares the 234 code or has its own code.


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## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> I think the 521 dial mentionned by Avidfan is a different one. It has a sort of shadow on the edge, which I think is a purpose design different from the 234.
> Interestingly--or not--there is also a version of the 234 with only one lume dot at 12. Not sure whether it shares the 234 code or has its own code.


It looks as though EndeavourDK's watch is a 234 dial with the two lume dots at 12, and then Vostok used the same basic design with one lume dot at 12 and some subtle green shading around the edge and called it a 521 :-s


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## Avidfan

The above post should read "It looks as though EndeavourDK's watch is a 234 dial with the two lume dots at 12, and then Vostok used the same basic design with one or 2 lume dots at 12 and some subtle green shading around the edge and called it a 521 :-s"

PC troubles today and I can't edit my other post.


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## Odessa200

Friends, what do you think? Looks legit to me.


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## thewatchadude

With this model, there is always the question of whether the red second hand is appropriate or whether it needs a silver second hand. I don't have the answer--so I have both versions just to be sure.
Also wondering whether the caseback should feature a serial number, given the dial and movement seem to be from soviet era.

In any case a nice model that looks in good shape. I have to strongly refrain myself from buying any and each 9370 suba dude I see, I really love it.


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## Odessa200

thewatchadude said:


> With this model, there is always the question of whether the red second hand is appropriate or whether it needs a silver second hand. I don't have the answer--so I have both versions just to be sure.
> Also wondering whether the caseback should feature a serial number, given the dial and movement seem to be from soviet era.
> 
> In any case a nice model that looks in good shape. I have to strongly refrain myself from buying any and each 9370 suba dude I see, I really love it.


I agree. Was looking at this Seconds hand as well... I think it is a legitimate variation. Serial number: agree. Again, too many w/o them. This is probably a watch done post soviet collapse with still available soviet parts. Thanks!


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## jimzilla

I think I may have a #53 Crab case Franken!
The movement looks authentic... at least to me, the case back does too except it looks too perfect, but the case looks too squared off and the machining on the top where the bezel goes looks weird. the watch in question has the sunset case back, with paper tag, that tag looks weird as well. :think:


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> I think I may have a #53 Crab case Franken!
> The movement looks authentic... at least to me, the case back does too except it looks too perfect, but the case looks too squared off and the machining on the top where the bezel goes looks weird. the watch in question has the sunset case back, with paper tag, that tag looks weird as well. :think:


Through different era's of production cases often have small changes, and the case back looks perfect because it's not been worn, the only thing I can spot "wrong" with the case is that the notch for the case back tab has been cut at the bottom of the case so the back will only fit upside down, this has been seen before on genuine Vostoks.

But the seconds hand I think should be without lume and the paper tag looks like it has been put on recently to look more NOS


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## EndeavourDK

Second comrade Avidfan 
Found this Soviet one on eBay from a Spanish seller, normally selling authentic & untouched Vostoks ..
Probably made in the turbulent times; "grab & install-what-is-on-stock" and perhaps therefor the "wrong" paddle seconds hand ? :think:
Same notch and where have I seen those paper tags before ..... :roll: ;-)


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## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Second comrade Avidfan
> Found this Soviet one on eBay from a Spanish seller, normally selling authentic and untouched Vostoks..
> Probably made in the turbulent times; "grab & install-what-is-on-stock" and perhaps therefor the "wrong" paddle seconds hand ? :think:
> Same notch and where I have seen those paper tags before.....:roll: ;-)


Agreed ;-) Vostok were always putting the "wrong" hands on their watches in the 90's :-d


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## jimzilla

"Found this Soviet one on eBay from a Spanish seller" That is exactly where I bought this watch Roland, you are quite the detective! thank you for your input Avid fan and Roland.
I would have have not guessed there would be that much variation in there manufacturing process. I am glad it is real, thank you guy's, James.


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## jimzilla

Good morning comrades I hope everyone has a excellent day! ..... |>

I have another purchase I need to have certified by our esteemed panel of experts, as always thank you in advance for your time and opinions, James.


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## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Good morning comrades I hope everyone has a excellent day! .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have another purchase I need to have certified by our esteemed panel of experts, as always thank you in advance for your time and opinions, James.


Any inside pics?


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## jimzilla

I did not want to crack the back if it does not need any work. It came with a box but no paper work or small tag on spring bar. It is a watch I will put in to my rotation to wear.


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## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> Good morning comrades I hope everyone has a excellent day! ..... |>
> 
> I have another purchase I need to have certified by our esteemed panel of experts, as always thank you in advance for your time and opinions, James.


Looks IMHO pretty authentic to me. Hour lume-dots and hands-lume seem to match, same case back as mine. Can't spot, apart from slight differences in dial design, any flaws. 
I uploaded some pictures so you can compare.
Yours has 2x hour dots at 12, mine only one. Yours has the case-back the correct way around, mine upside down. Different crown, but as far as I understand both are accepted.

As were comrade Odessa200 asked for the movement looks like mine, same color anti-shock spring and "dog-leg" or "leaf-spring", than I can't see much wrong ......


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## jimzilla

Good morning Roland, wishing a pleasant day to you sir.
Is mine missing the metal crystal ring looks like a wee gap.


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## jimzilla




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## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> Good morning Roland, wishing a pleasant day to you sir.
> Is mine missing the metal crystal ring looks like a wee gap.


Good afternoon to you ;-) (16:35 over here)

From what I can see on your picture the crystal tension ring appears to be there ........


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## jimzilla

Good deal, thank you Roland.


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## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> Good deal, thank you Roland.


Perhaps others may spot (there are comrades here with eagle-eyes) something I haven't seen / spotted. 
If you, like were comrade Odessa200 asked for, were to post a picture of the movement that would take any further doubt out of the equation.


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## Avidfan

It looks to be a good example :-!

But with any dial in a 33 case I always like to know that it's got it's original dial feet so I know it's not from a 34 case


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> It looks to be a good example :-!
> 
> But with any dial in a 33 case I always like to know that it's got it's original dial feet so I know it's not from a 34 case


Good point ! I was thinking how to check without actually lifting the dial. Unless the "faker" was really smart and left a piece of the dial feet in the main-plate, I would say that if you can see a dial feet here (arrow), you should be fine. The other dial-feet sits underneath the balance-bridge. Of course lifting the dial would be the ultimate proof and show how smart the "faker" was ..... :think:

I can see the dial feet at the arrow. I'm very reluctant to lift the dial and thereafter service the watch. I have a feeling that the black-paint on the dial may have gone soft, or softer. The watch, despite never having had a service still runs with an amplitude of 265 degrees and the dial is immaculate, has never been touched. For now, peeking in the hole for the dial-feet has to do it


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## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Good point ! I was thinking how to check without actually lifting the dial. Unless the "faker" was really smart and left a piece of the dial feet in the main plate


Franken makers have been known to put a bit of wire in the holes so they look like feet :-d but it's probably ok if you can see the end of the foot that's visible, most franken makers aren't that smart :-d

And I know what you're saying with black paint Vostok dials that never seem to go hard, best to leave alone ;-)


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## jimzilla

Got another one that came in today and is in need of authentication from our resident panel of esteemed experts. As always,thank you in advance.


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## jimzilla

I was also wondering what is the other insignia next to the Boctok B, looks like an ohm's law symbol.


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Got another one that came in today and is in need of authentication from our resident panel of esteemed experts. As always,thank you in advance.


It's a 341289 Dnepr-Vostok put together at the factory in Dnepropetrovsk which is in Ukraine, made between 1992-94 (passport will give an exact date)


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## jimzilla

Thank you Avidfan you are always so helpful and it is greatly appreciated sir. 
So the added insignia next to the Boctok B means it was made in Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine? interesting, are the one's made in Dnepropetrovsk any more rare or desirable or different?


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## Chascomm

Dnepr-Vostok with papers! Cool stuff! :-!


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## thewatchadude

jimzilla said:


> Thank you Avidfan you are always so helpful and it is greatly appreciated sir.
> So the added insignia next to the Boctok B means it was made in Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine? interesting, are the one's made in Dnepropetrovsk any more rare or desirable or different?


My understanidng is that Dnepr-Vostok is actually a partnership between Vostok and a Ukrainian co. A bit like the Ostwok in Switzerland I guess. Don't remember why a Ukrainian co had to make a partnership with a Russian co in that period though.


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## EndeavourDK

Intrigued, I "Googled" up this article / thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/dnepr-vostok-746215.html


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> So the added insignia next to the Boctok B means it was made in Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine? interesting, are the one's made in Dnepropetrovsk any more rare or desirable or different?


AFAIK the factory at Dnepropetrovsk only assembled parts made at Chistopol and the only difference is the logo on the dial.

But a little more interesting than the usual Vostok version...


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## Balticum

Hello! I just got some pocket watches. I assume that this one is Georges Favre- Jacot watch as it written in inner case  , but dial confusing me - is it franken or it's some local Russian empire watchmaker who assembled this watch? Maybe somebody knows to say something more about it? Just thinking- will it fits to my Russian/ soviet collection and it's worth to repair it or not.


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## Balticum

Georges Favre-Jacot


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## EndeavourDK

I don't know about Russian Pocket watches, but if the pivots of the balance staff aren't broken, it seems to me worth to have a go to restore it. The dial look still in reasonable nice shape and the case has a nice patina ......


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## jimzilla

Got another one that needs authentication, thank you.


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## jimzilla

thewatchadude said:


> My understanidng is that Dnepr-Vostok is actually a partnership between Vostok and a Ukrainian co. A bit like the Ostwok in Switzerland I guess. Don't remember why a Ukrainian co had to make a partnership with a Russian co in that period though.


Thanks thewatchadude for the heads up!.


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## jimzilla

this is the latest watch I need to have authenticated. haven't saw a that had a P.O.P. sticker on the back Thank you in advance.
I posted this twice before but it did not post.


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## thewatchadude

thewatchadude said:


> My understanidng is that Dnepr-Vostok is actually a partnership between Vostok and a Ukrainian co. A bit like the Ostwok in Switzerland I guess. Don't remember why a Ukrainian co had to make a partnership with a Russian co in that period though.


.


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## EndeavourDK

Dear All;

Due to the length of this thread, causing software problems, part number #3 of the Q&A Expertise thread has been opened. Please post your questions in Q&A part #3;

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-3-a-4977267.html

Thank you :-!


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## EndeavourDK

Dear All;

Due to the length of this thread, causing software problems, part #3 of the Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken has been opened.
Please post you questions in Part #3:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-3-a-4977267.html

Thank you !


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