# Basel 2017: Grand Seiko now independent, hands-on with new collection



## robattopper (Apr 1, 2009)

Wow, what day! Russ and I are still scrambling to catch up, but we saw a lot of amazing watches already, many of which are the new Grand Seikos which we think you guys are going to love.

This is a pivotal year for Grand Seiko, as many of you who've been following show coverage might already know, but they're splitting off from Seiko, to be run as an entirely separate, independent brand. It's probably the biggest non product-related news of the show so far. But in equally grand measure, are the new models being offered, that we went hands-on with here. You'll note the branding is now different, as Grand Seiko is retiring all of its existing model numbers (for example, the below SBGH001 (right) will become SBGH201 (left).










Also note the differences on the new Spring Drive 200m Diver on the right.










And now the rest of the collection - what do you think of the changes?





































*Update 1*: More of the new dials of the 2017 Collection are in our Grand Seiko Facebook album
https://www.facebook.com/TopperFine...33383122853/10154254460652854/?type=3&theater

*Update 2*: Check out our video walkthrough of the above Tribute Series with Rusty Rowlands from Seiko:


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## ten13th (Nov 2, 2013)

Any hands on photo of SBGW253, 252, 251?


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## robattopper (Apr 1, 2009)

ten13th said:


> Any hands on photo of SBGW253, 252, 251?


Here you go!


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## DHPSU (Sep 12, 2014)

Are they really redoing all their existing watches with the new logo? They pulled a lot off their website.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

Excellent to see the divers on wrist...Can't wait to see video footage and different angles if possible! Did the almost 47mm on the Hi Beat wear smaller than expected? Seriously considering it, though in my opinion the SBGA looked better with the previous logo. Perhaps the only model where I'm not liking it!

Do you have an image of the SBGH257 on wrist as well? Trying to decide on the LE or black at this point...

EDIT: 




Thank you!


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## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

The GS is too close to the top of the dial IMO, and redundant. I'd swap it out for the lion symbol. Put the "GS" on the crown.

I'd like to see more of the new spring drives (especially the Snowflake). I like that the power reserve indicator is gone. Not sure I'd take a 4:00 date in it's place.

Edit: Nevermind. Didn't realize the new GS diver was a hi-beat. Still need to see more new spring drives.


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## MLJinAK (Feb 14, 2015)

I agree that the GS is too close to the 12 hour marker... Throws the look off.

As I think about it more... (after posting a lot of negative)... this is going to be a gradual transition for GS as an independent.

Think of a start-up. They go make-do with whatever they have. Same thing here. Yes, they probably have lots of money, but you can't re-tool a whole line up perfectly with such limited time.

Eventually, I think they'll get to a place where the dials are thoughtfully laid out, look good, maybe make some other tweaks to the branding. Supposedly, if it's independent, it'll make it more nimble to adjust to tastes.

Once they get into new production, they will be able to recalibrate machines to make different dials. 
These truly look like the same dials, but just swapped around for a quick show of what the future will hold.

After initial disappointment and shock, I'm going to be optimistic for a couple years down the road.


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## Domo (Sep 20, 2013)

Why did they change the serif font for "AUTOMATIC" and such for that bland fugly one? I mean, you can get away with it on a Brightz grand cocktail and Presage but c'mon now...


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

Automatic now really looks bad and it already was a completely useless piece of text that the industry desperately needs to drop. 

I would like to see more spring drives to see how that pr looks, I don't think it'll look right, maybe one thing saved by the extra text. 

But all and all I like the change even if it cheapens the brand by taking away the Seiko label. A clean dial is always best with the work seiko puts into those dials!


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## Laso1 (Oct 10, 2012)

I like it better than the old way. Less clutter. No pictures of the Quartz dials.


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## matthew P (Aug 1, 2013)

I appreciate that you started off with the two models that I own.... kind of shocked that its happened so quickly. Didn't expect the existing models to be getting a make over till later on in the process. 
The new highbeat certainly does look cleaner / dressier but the unified font looks good. 
The spring diver looks kind of vacant. On a tool watch I think I prefer the seiko version. 029 dial seems extremely vacant now. 
New chronograph benefit from not having the extra seiko font.... really like how they look and not having the power reserve over the GS is a great move. 


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## dinexus (Nov 18, 2012)

Huge improvement, but it's kind of a shame they turn the lights out on all the existing models overnight. 


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## The Ranger (Sep 18, 2016)

Yes, agree, Seiko logo adds a bit of required toolish twist on 029 compared to this new 229. Most probably they have done some research at Seiko and found out that new customers would prefer GS only better and that it would improve sales or help to increase prices. Anyway glad to see it's still in the offering and hopefully this renewal of GS brand brings new accessories, new boutiques and services better available.


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## five-eighth (Jan 15, 2014)

If no-one had mentioned it, I probably wouldn't have noticed. I guess I'm not really a dial font/logo kinda guy!


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

Interesting business move. Like Credor?

Hopefully they also rethink the distribution/marketing and service setup outside Japan. Because the current system isn't working well for GS. 

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## G07 (Nov 20, 2008)

Totally agree Domo - very ugly font.


Domo said:


> Why did they change the serif font for "AUTOMATIC" and such for that bland fugly one? I mean, you can get away with it on a Brightz grand cocktail and Presage but c'mon now...


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## Domo (Sep 20, 2013)




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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

I'm not quite getting it.... The talk of going independent and splitting off from Seiko.
What does this really mean, if anything??
It's still a Seiko brand... It's still a Seiko right? I mean, no different from Credor... Still Seiko right?


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## nickma (Jun 5, 2012)

Prefer the old dial layouts with SEIKO on the top. That's still what it is, after all!


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## rokman (Sep 1, 2015)

It still says seiko on it...

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## izecius (Jun 4, 2015)

I like it and hate it at the same time. Think it looks nicer and cleaner without Seiko on it, but at the same time i got used to it. Now it feels a bit weird watching at a Snowflake with GS and Grand seiko on top of it and a bit "naked" on the lower part of the dial. But i think they did the right thing, there were a lot of people complaining about it at the beginning.


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## sigma089 (Jul 5, 2011)

Any pics of the "new" SBGW231 - i.e. the standard handwind SBGW031 with the logo on top? I'm all set on the new SBGW253, but wouldn't mind the display case back of the SBGW031.


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## robattopper (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes, here is our Facebook album showing most of the new dials. We will upload these into the thread as soon as we have a good connection. 
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TopperFineJewelers/photos/?tab=album&album_id=10154252957362854


DHPSU said:


> Are they really redoing all their existing watches with the new logo? They pulled a lot off their website.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Laso1 (Oct 10, 2012)

Like any new change it will take some getting use to. I personally think if something is not broken don't fix it. That said, I work very hard to keep an open mind and embrace change and give it a chance before I revolt. I was surprised that this change did not bother me and that I actually Like it.

I like the added Realestate on the quartz watch dial, and a no date version would be great. Reminds me of my favorite dress watch the Calatrava. Simple and uncluttered.

I agree that the SD power reserve does look out of place now and especially to those of us who did not like it in the first place.

I think the GMTs, Hi-Beats and Automatics look great.

The Dive watch, I would like to see in person before I decide. It is definitely much larger than I would like to wear. I do like the case design and dial layout. I also think I like the textured dial, but want to see one in the metal to be sure.

In general I am not a fan of chronographs. I think these look great (even though they are still to big for my liking).


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

bluedialer said:


> I'm not quite getting it.... The talk of going independent and splitting off from Seiko.
> What does this really mean, if anything??
> It's still a Seiko brand... It's still a Seiko right? I mean, no different from Credor... Still Seiko right?


I think the separation is just for public perception, I expect GS will remain, legally, a Seiko organization. I am not even sure GS could survive on its own - think of the expense of the materials, equipment, staff, AD network. You don't just make silicon rods and Spron billets in your back yard workshop. I suspect a lot of their technology derives from and/or improves upon basic Seiko watch technology, they wouldn't want to lose access to that.

Or have I overanalyzed your comment :roll: ?


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## ten13th (Nov 2, 2013)

I might be in the minority. At this time only SBGW25x looks amazing with Grand Seiko script logo. All others with GS + tiny Grand Seiko script looks off. 


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## matthew P (Aug 1, 2013)

Laso1 said:


> Like any new change it will take some getting use to. I personally think if something is not broken don't fix it. That said, I work very hard to keep an open mind and embrace change and give it a chance before I revolt. I was surprised that this change did not bother me and that I actually Like it.
> 
> I like the added Realestate on the quartz watch dial, and a no date version would be great. Reminds me of my favorite dress watch the Calatrava. Simple and uncluttered.
> 
> ...


yep....give it 24 hours.
Im already on board the "good move GS "train.
Simple, clean, consistent font and less clutter..... what we've always liked about GS, now with out the extra Seiko / Grand seiko redundancy.
I even like the spring drive models now that Ive looked at them a couple of times.

Now, If I can order me a GS rubber strap for my 029 diver that would be great.

certainly didn't expect to be owning discontinued models when I woke up yesterday but it does explain the JDM market shortage of Seiko/ GS product


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## appleb (Sep 30, 2015)

bluedialer said:


> I'm not quite getting it.... The talk of going independent and splitting off from Seiko.
> What does this really mean, if anything??
> It's still a Seiko brand... It's still a Seiko right? I mean, no different from Credor... Still Seiko right?


It's just an update to the Grand Seiko branding on the watches. There is no corporate or organizational changes to the company.


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

appleb said:


> It's just an update to the Grand Seiko branding on the watches. There is no corporate or organizational changes to the company.


Ok, so just kinda BS marketing talk. A perceptual upgrade; AKA just a change in dial layout like I thought. The watch quality, value, the way they manufacture, will not be any different now than before. Still a Seiko watch, which btw is just fine.

Sorry, just don't like misleading talk. All they've done is take the old SEIKO applique off and move the other stuff around. Heck that's practically a cost-cutting measure (I know, it's not). Different, but not exactly a mark of true independence from Seiko... And not that any such independence would necessarily be a good thing.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

I have seen no evidence that GS was struggling to sell their watches. Nearly all of their limited editions are a pain to get if you don't act quickly. I'm told stores will run out of stock of the more popular models and be on back order. These are a small production line of watches and due to the manual work involved to produce them, I'm not sure seiko can scale them beyond a point. So this might be a play to push prices up to maximize or more likely minimize losses on the line (I would not be surprised in the slightest if this line is a loss leader to showcase the greater brand as many brands will do with their top of the line items).


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## aalin13 (Apr 2, 2010)

robattopper said:


> Yes, here is our Facebook album showing most of the new dials. We will upload these into the thread as soon as we have a good connection.
> https://www.facebook.com/pg/TopperFineJewelers/photos/?tab=album&album_id=10154252957362854


Thanks for the photos, it is interesting that the new diver looks to have shirt lugs to lug to lug doesn't look much bigger than SD diver

Still not sure about the new logo, I'm fine with removing Seiko, and but i feel having both the Grand Seiko text and logo at the top feels too top heavy. I think the new dials would have looked better with the text at the top and the GS logo at the bottom


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## Domo (Sep 20, 2013)

If *I* was at that meeting, it would have played out more like in Kill Bill I. At the indicated point, I'd have smashed my fist on the table, made a crack about their American-Chinese heritage and promptly beheaded them both with my katana.


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## Csyoon25 (Feb 20, 2016)

Is credor part of gs? Or seiko? Or was it already its own independent? And does this mean the 8L movements aren't going to be in seikos? 

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## Rickfernandez (Aug 21, 2015)

Like the move but gonna miss that seiko logo on the dial.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

Hate to be Mr. P.C., especially since I hate the idea of "micro-agressions" and being oversensitive, but I'd be remiss to not call this out as offensive and discriminatory. Hopefully I'm not the only one on here that thinks so.


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## hotmustardsauce (Sep 19, 2012)

Sad day if this is the way forward for GS. The new branding looks cheap and terrible. It was good while it lasted 

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## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

ahonobaka said:


> Hate to be Mr. P.C., especially since I hate the idea of "micro-agressions" and being oversensitive, but I'd be remiss to not call this out as offensive and discriminatory. Hopefully I'm not the only one on here that thinks so.


Yeah, I was just too lazy to quote the whole post and make a comment.


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## eresaru (Feb 17, 2017)

I have had my eye on the Snowflake for some time now and have been steadily saving for one. Do you think I should hurry up and get one ASAP? Will they "disappear" from the market within the following year or so or will we be able to get a new one for the foreseeable future? Will GS stop making the old brand pieces?


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## robattopper (Apr 1, 2009)

How about a better look at the Hi-Beat Divers? Rusty Rowlands is here to walk us through these two new Grand Seiko divers:


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

robattopper said:


> How about a better look at the Hi-Beat Divers? Rusty Rowlands is here to walk us through these two new Grand Seiko divers:


Does the guy on our left have a custom made shirt with super large sleeves to wear with modern sports watches? They look so HUGE. Sorry I couldn't get past that when watching.,


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## daveto (Jun 18, 2016)

Good move, but I like the one with "SEIKO" on the top of dial more.....

I love GS is because they are all great watches but not to attract too much attention....


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

I agree with people that think the GS logo should have been at the bottom, I am so happy that I bought my self SBGW035, this month before this change.
I never minded the Seiko on top, at the end of the day it is a Seiko, which is just fine. I also do not think anything other than dials and model numbers will change.
Even the move that they made with their Prospex line did not do it for me, I own the SBDX001 with an unsigned crown. I like that so much better than the "X" on the crown.
As somebody else mentioned, never fix something that is not broke. 
Over all I think GS will do just fine.


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## Wysie (Sep 18, 2011)

As someone who has a GS (SBGA125), I've to say I'm quite disappointed with the newer GS models recently as well as the rebranding. There doesn't seem to be any real benefit to rebrand the older models.

I get that with a GS, it's all about the finer details that you appreciate more with time. But first impressions do matter and the newer GS models don't do anything for me. Once in a while it's great to enjoy a watch that looks good on first glance, not upon inspection.


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

Csyoon25 said:


> Is credor part of gs? Or seiko? Or was it already its own independent? And does this mean the 8L movements aren't going to be in seikos?


Did you hear something out of Basel about Credor? As far as I understand, Credor is just an upper level line of Seiko, like GS. 8L movements are used in more non-Credor watches than they are in Credor ones, and no apparent reason why they wouldn't continue to be used in non-Credor watches.


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## Csyoon25 (Feb 20, 2016)

bluedialer said:


> Did you hear something out of Basel about Credor? As far as I understand, Credor is just an upper level line of Seiko, like GS. 8L movements are used in more non-Credor watches than they are in Credor ones, and no apparent reason why they wouldn't continue to be used in non-Credor watches.


The 8L was a gs question. Cause its a gs movement

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## JoeKirk (Nov 29, 2009)

ahonobaka said:


> Hate to be Mr. P.C., especially since I hate the idea of "micro-agressions" and being oversensitive, but I'd be remiss to not call this out as offensive and discriminatory. Hopefully I'm not the only one on here that thinks so.


You were not the only one who found that comment to be offensive. I was contacted by multiple forum members about it. I have removed it and hope that that we do not see behavior like this on this forum again.


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## JoeKirk (Nov 29, 2009)

bluedialer said:


> Did you hear something out of Basel about Credor? As far as I understand, Credor is just an upper level line of Seiko, like GS. 8L movements are used in more non-Credor watches than they are in Credor ones, and no apparent reason why they wouldn't continue to be used in non-Credor watches.


Basically, Credor and GS are in their own separate categories at this point, though still distributed in Japan in the same channels. However, since the brand is not available internationally (technically), it does not create much of an issue. In the case of the US and since the boutiques stock them, it will be a part of the GS division now, along with Galante.

As a side note, 8L is not used in the Credor line up anymore (with currently available models). It is only used in Prospex and Galante. I believe it will remain this way but am not certain.


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## JoeKirk (Nov 29, 2009)

Csyoon25 said:


> The 8L was a gs question. Cause its a gs movement
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


8L isn't a GS movement. It's design (as in component layout, bridge structure etc) is based on the old (used from 1998-2010) 9S55 caliber, not the current 9S65. GS movements all start with 9, and are in a completely different category in terms of aesthetic finishing, component finishing (such as gears and pinions) for better performance, and overall accuracy and longevity. The 8L's do not go through the same process, though they are basically the top grade mechanical coming from the same studio, outside of GS of course.

Hope this is some help!


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## robattopper (Apr 1, 2009)

Lots more from Seiko - just put up our video of Rusty Rowlands walking us through the Grand Seiko Spring Drive chronograph collection. Check it out here:


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## coffeewatch (Sep 20, 2016)

I am a little conflicted. Overall I like the SBGH201 as compared to the previous model (except that I agree that the GS is too crowded up against 12 o'clock). But in general I liked seeing Seiko at the top of the dial. And I do not like the divers which have increased in size too much. IMO GS should have went for an even bigger redesign of their logos/fonts, or kept things a lot more the same. A 1/2 or 1/4 disruption is hardly worth it.

Mostly I hope that GS will not try to hide their Seiko heritage, even though I understand that the common guy might pretend that Cadillac and Chevy are built by different corporations when they are not.


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## alpinistfan (Nov 5, 2015)

coffeewatch said:


> I am a little conflicted. Overall I like the SBGH201 as compared to the previous model (except that I agree that the GS is too crowded up against 12 o'clock). But in general I liked seeing Seiko at the top of the dial. And I do not like the divers which have increased in size too much. IMO GS should have went for an even bigger redesign of their logos/fonts, or kept things a lot more the same. A 1/2 or 1/4 disruption is hardly worth it.
> 
> Mostly I hope that GS will not try to hide their Seiko heritage, even though I understand that the common guy might pretend that Cadillac and Chevy are built by different corporations when they are not.


I agree here... Seiko should not shy away from the name "Seiko"... It seems as of something is missing/not quite right


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## SunsetSheen (Jan 17, 2018)

sigma089 said:


> Any pics of the "new" SBGW231 - i.e. the standard handwind SBGW031 with the logo on top? I'm all set on the new SBGW253, but wouldn't mind the display case back of the SBGW031.


Why isn't the SBGW231 on the Grand Seiko website? And I can barely find any information on it online. No videos of it on Youtube or anything. Does anyone know why that is, or why it's such a barely known model? 
I literally didn't even know that this watch existed until seeing this thread.


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## Mark355 (Dec 25, 2012)

I understand the move and think it works well on complicated pieces like GMTs, chronos, and SD power reserves. Some dials were getting verbose and I think some free real estate is a welcome change. On the other hand, I prefer the old branding on pieces with less to shout about on the dial, primarily the 9Fs where GS logo below the hand stack provided visual balance.

I specifically sought the SBGX091 over the 291 for this reason. And because the GS logo in red is just ultra cool. Also, my first great watch was a Seiko. I'm proud to have that applied *SEIKO* logo on my watch. It's something to admire, not dismiss because it's not "prestigious" enough.


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