# High End Forum Opinions on Grand Seiko



## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

What do you really think about the grand seiko? Is it on par with your other high end watches?

The GS has got die hard fans and have been hot topic in the public forums. Some even compared the finishing level to patek.

I know seiko engineering is superb. Never really held a GS before, so perhaps I can be enlightened on the quality of finish or 'art'.

I find some of the designs while classic, are quite plain, as they don't stray from a basic knife hands dial coming in either monochrome colors of white, silver or black.









Is the engineering and finish so superb that it can get away by looking like a normal seiko, and not having different designs like the european brands?


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

I'm quite down on the design.
Unless there are some amazing complications, the engineering brilliance is completely lost on me.
Great finishing on GS is also not very grossly apparent at macroscopic levels.
Finally they don't have any presence in the watch shops I have visited in California.


To make matters even worse, they have Credor for the "really high-end stuff" according to what I read on these forums.

Maybe Grand Seiko is supposed to be a competitor to Rolex and Credor against haute horlogerie?
I would love to hear more about the brand positioning of Seiko from someone who knows about the brand a lot more than I do because it seems unclear from their pricing what their competitors are.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

I am telling you this thread will require pop corn and a good seat !!!


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

I think the GS you pictured is the Japanese analogue to any of several Rolexes: Oyster Perpetual, Air King, Explorer I or DateJust. I guess having a date, it's closest to the Datejust. 


Thoughts re: a similar watch:
One of the fellows in my little cabal bought a pre-owned GS about six years ago when he was on a trip to Japan. From the short time I had exposure to a GS (not the one you depicted above, but a high beat model), my sense was that it was as well made as anything -- high end or not -- needs to be. I suspect it's as over-engineered/over-designed as a Rolex because the GS is the pride and joy of the Japanese "watch geeks" as well as highly prideful and nationalistic Japanese luxury goods consumers. I don't feel that their pride is unwarranted. 

The watch's shipping content surprised me in that it included materials about watches and movements in general as well as the specific watch in the box. (At least that's what he said it was. Neither of us could read it because it was in Japanese.) So, if by some stroke one doesn't know "jack" about watches, Seiko makes sure that if one finds oneself with a new GS and read the materials, one will. It's not lost on me how from a marketing standpoint doing that sort of thing is self-serving, but all the same, it also reflects a focus on and understanding of the person, the actual human beings, who may come to own the watch. That's pretty exceptional among any manufacturer. Also, I was surprised to later find out that Seiko's standards for accuracy/precision are tighter than the COSC standards. 

General Seiko Thoughts:
This is just an opinion of mine, but in many ways, I think Seiko is a far better, and perhaps more capable, watchmaker than any of the Swiss or Germans, at least if I am to gauge such a thing by demonstrated action and results. (Note: Seiko being IMO more capable doesn't make the Swiss/Germans incapable IMO by any means.) I say that because when I look at the innovations that Seiko as introduced and the frequency with which they do so, I see nothing of the sort coming from any of their European competitors in the high end. From the first time I ever even heard of Seiko years and years ago, quality, reliability and carefree ownership experience were the hallmarks of what Seiko stood for. I don't think they have wavered from that.

It seems to me that if Seiko feel like they need to do something to put their products ahead, keep up with consumer trends, expectations, market conditions, etc., they just get on with it and do it. It's also worth noting that the GS line has been around and hugely popular since the 1960s (it's just that they didn't distribute them outside of Japan), and yet during the crisis years, I don't believe Seiko felt like there was a crisis. They are, IMO, just a much better run organization than are most Swiss watch companies. I think for the consumer, that's mostly a good thing.

Seiko and High-end-ness:
Also, isn't everything Seiko makes -- from the least to most expensive watch -- in-house? I believe the answer is yes, but if it's not, it's damn close to yes. It's my understanding that like Rolex, Seiko -- one division/subsidiary or another of them -- makes every single thing that goes into their watches. The reason I mention that is not because I care that much about in-house one way or the other. I say that to highlight a huge "lie" that I personally feel reflects the greed and disingenuousness of the Europeans when it comes to the way in which they have touted and priced in-house products. Very few European makers are as completely in-house as Seiko is, yet most of them kvetch on and on about the importance of manufacture craftsmanship, even as companies like Seiko and Citizen best them on their own talking point. Seiko has long demonstrated that there's not one good reason why in-house products need to cost as much as the Swiss (Germans) charge for it. 

Lastly, as goes two of the cornerstones of "high end-ness" -- history and pedigree -- well, Seiko has it in spades. They were founded in the 1880s, began making watches in the 1920s, and as far as I know, the Hattori family remain the primary shareholders. Unlike ALS, they manged to survive internal political crises, global wars, domestic and global economic depressions, etc. and yet there they are, the same company as they were over 100 years ago. Unlike Breguet (of the 1970s, 80s and 90s), they don't have a stint in their history where they were producing stuff that wasn't really the equal of what their brand stood for from the outset. The suffered from no form of poor management that led several great watchmakers to the brink of extinction. Seiko seems for 100+ years to have done things a lot of things right and it appears they continue to do so.

Do I want a GS? Yes. It's the watch that I have targeted for purchase this coming winter. I expect to go with a high-beat model, but there's a good bit of time between then and now. I like the one you pictured, OP, but I have a rather similar looking Rolex, so I'd like to get something that looks a bit different. I suspect the Seiko may quickly become one of my daily wear "go to" watches, ousting my Constellation, provided it's got some flair.

All the best.

Many Buddhist temple priests regard their parishioners as possessions and fear their departure as a diminishing of assets.
- Kentetsu Takamori


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## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

tony20009 said:


> Seiko and High-end-ness:
> Also, isn't everything Seiko makes -- from the least to most expensive watch -- in-house? I believe the answer is yes, but if it's not, it's damn close to yes...... Seiko has long demonstrated that there's not one good reason why in-house products need to cost as much as the Swiss (Germans) charge for it.


But Seiko also makes label printers, calculators, glasses, camera shutters and so on and on and on. This reason alone is enough for me to discard Seiko as High End watch brand - Grand Seiko or not.

I handled a couple of GS models at Fredmans in Sydney on Monday. No doubt the quality is better than say Oris, Tags, Longines and even some Breitlings and Omegas. But for the price, I'd rather add another 6-7k on top and get JLC, UN or a Daytona


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

tony20009 said:


> I think Seiko is a far better, and perhaps more capable, watchmaker than any of the Swiss or Germans...


Can you please explain further? Any specific examples which lead you to believe this?

In general, I wouldn't doubt for a second that the Japanese culture's focus on artisan crafts would lead to great results.
I just haven't seen much evidence (or exposed to the existing evidence) in watches.


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

An extremely strong collection of timepieces. Seiko is quite different than the rest of the market since they don't operate as one company producing different quality timepieces but rather as a larger company with smaller companies within. 
In terms of finish, I have yet to see it in person but from what I hear, the watch is best compared to, and it exceeds the standards of Omega, Rolex and the like. I would not put it up with Patek Philippe or other haute horlogerie brands. In terms of movements, they are to be respected without doubt. Incredible standards and just look at their spring drive...it gains 1 second per month!

Last year, i was very close to pulling the trigger on a GS spring drive as i wanted a beater that won;t be recognized and for that purpose, GS takes the crown. They still print Seiko on the dial so to the blind...it is of no value but to the learned, it is perhaps one of the best pieces to ever be made.

Credor on the other hand...
Now that is a different story. They pretty much use the same muscle in the GS models but also include haute horlogerie finishing (competes with PP and the like) combined with precious metal cases. The only problem...they are only sold in Japan and from what I hear, the Japanese frown on anyone taking it out of there. They know they are that good!


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

AbuKalb93 said:


> they are only sold in Japan and from what I hear, the Japanese frown on anyone taking it out of there. They know they are that good!


Is this really true?

It seems that many Japanese (not just watch companies) are not interested in maximizing monetization lol.


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

shnjb said:


> Is this really true?
> 
> It seems that many Japanese (not just watch companies) are not interested in maximizing monetization lol.


I find it easy to believe. My sister was in Japan a couple years back and wanted to get an awesome looking phone. Apparently it had Disney characters on it. The SA denied her the purchase saying she had to provide a home address within Japan or she cant get it. I find that pretty cool actually, but then again I have a thing for exclusiveness.

GS was only available in Japan and some pieces in HK until about 3 years ago when they were let out into the North American market. If you did your research you could find a couple grey dealers on the internet who could ship it to you.


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## ilikebigbutts (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't think about them at all. Never features on my shortlist. Design doesn't appeal. End of story for me. Don't care what's inside.


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## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

it has big butts inside? still no love?


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

systemcrasher said:


> it has big butts inside? still no love?


lol


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## ilikebigbutts (Feb 27, 2013)

systemcrasher said:


> it has big butts inside? still no love?


A nice round apple bottom engraved on the rotor you say? If only I was famous enough to get my own Richard Mille.


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

Here's what "he" thinks lol:-d


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## aardvarkbark (Oct 27, 2010)

They may contain mechanical marvels, but I find the designs to be cold and sterile.


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## Moloch (Dec 29, 2013)

While the Swiss does artsy stuff with watches better but I think that Japanese way of being technically driven watch development is also great. From super advanced materials they use to their unheralded technical designs. Is like how gymnastics are judged in the olympics. Most Soviet bloc and Asian countries value the technical side of it while most Western countries are about the artistic form.

I would love to own a GS but waiting on the right model.


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

tony20009 said:


> I think Seiko is a far better, and perhaps more capable, watchmaker than any of the Swiss or Germans, at least if I am to gauge such a thing by demonstrated action and results.


On the other side of opinions I could not disagree more. The one (and perhaps most important thing) Seiko lacks compared to high end swiss and german brands is finishing. Its not to say the swiss and germans are the only ones capable of high quality hand finishing, but it seems they are the overall winners at the top when comparing others. Sieko isn't even in the same league, and when it comes right down to what is high end vs what is not 80% of it comes down to the quality of finishing in my book. Both the finishing of the movement, and case.


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> On the other side of opinions I could not disagree more. The one (and perhaps most important thing) Seiko lacks compared to high end swiss and german brands is finishing. Its not to say the swiss and germans are the only ones capable of high quality hand finishing, but it seems they are the overall winners at the top when comparing others. Sieko isn't even in the same league, and when it comes right down to what is high end vs what is no 80% of it comes down to the quality of finishing.


Which is why they have Credor! They had some kind of thing going on with Philippe Dufour so i wouldn't challenge them if i were you


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

AbuKalb93 said:


> Which is why they have Credor! They had some kind of thing going on with Philippe Dufour so i wouldn't challenge them if i were you


What do either of those have to do with Seiko? Or the Seiko GM for that matter?

Just because they may own or influence Credor or PD (and I dont know if thats true on way or the other) it doesnt make Seiko better then it is.


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> What do either of those have to do with Seiko? Or the Seiko GM for that matter?
> 
> Just because they may own or influence Credor or PD (and I dont know if thats true on way or the other) it doesnt make Seiko better then it is.


I think you are underestimating Seiko. Seiko is a very large company and provide a whole selection of brands to choose from, starting with a $50 Seiko to a $375,000 Credor. They have everything to do with Seiko!


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

There's a common misconception about Credor. Yes, the brand name is found on some exquisitely finished and extremely technical timepieces, but they also have current offerings anywhere between $2-6K USD. 

It's more a design aesthetic that differentiates them from Grand Seiko than anything else as a brand.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

shnjb said:


> Can you please explain further? Any specific examples which lead you to believe this?
> 
> In general, I wouldn't doubt for a second that the Japanese culture's focus on artisan crafts would lead to great results.
> I just haven't seen much evidence (or exposed to the existing evidence) in watches.



Seiko
Seiko - The Credor Spring Drive Minute Repeater & LISTEN: The $400,000 Seiko Credor Minute Repeater
Seiko launches the Spring Drive Chronograph | Europa Star Magazine
Seiko innovates, launches its Spring Drive, and.(...)
Invented the chronograph pocket watch
First quartz wrist watch
A Spring Drive review -- Seiko Spring Drive SNR005 Watch Review | aBlogtoWatch - "f you need just one reason to be interested in Spring Drive based movements it is the concept of "the best of both worlds." The technical interest and emotion of a mechanical watch, and the accuracy of a quartz movement." - Ariel Adams
A Grand Seiko Review - Grand Seiko Hi-Beat SBGH005 Watch Review | aBlogtoWatch - "Switzerland for the most part hates or merely tolerates Seiko. Why? Because in many ways Seiko plays the game much better than they do. Don't get me wrong, the Swiss and Germans do a lot of things Seiko doesn't do, but that doesn't mean Seiko couldn't do it." - Ariel Adams
Arguably the first automatic chronograph watch to market - Just Because: Seiko 6139, The Other First Automatic Chronograph
How Seiko makes a watch - Exclusive - Inside Two Seiko Studios: Making a Watch the Japanese Way
Astron - Automatic GPS updates to keep the watch accurate and powered by the sun (quartz) - Hands-On With The Seiko Astron - A Solar Powered GPS Watch (Live Pics)
One source to which I pay very little attention aside for the occasional laugh, the Watch Snob, even gets it: "The Grand Seikos and Ananta collection are really, all hyperbole removed, some of the best mechanicals out there."
Has a depth of offerings matched by no single Swiss company. Consider dive watches: A WatchFreeks guide to currently popular Seiko Divers - Watch Freeks
A watch collector's view on 3 Seiko watches: Review of three Seiko watches by Les Zetlein - Pt 1
Another user review: Seiko Black Monster: The Watch that is the Best of Its Kind - Watches reviews : Watches reviews
I can't seem to find folks who are dissatisfied with their Seiko watch(s). I only have one, but I haven't got a single complaint about it.
Seiko quality - WatchGeeks


IMO, when judging a watch company, what I see from Seiko is that they manage to be damn near entirely in-house, have plenty of history, scads of achievements, _and_ they make excellent products that cater to every segment in the watch marketplace -- low end, middle, high end, ultra high end, mechanical quartz, hybrid, dress, sport, general purpose, etc. -- and within each segment the tangible quality and the functional reliability and durability of their products, though matched by others, isn't surpassed. Plus, they do it under one brand name -- Seiko. Do you know of any European watch company that accomplishes all that?

I'm not dogging the European companies, but IMO, as a maker of watches, there's a lot more going on at Seiko than there is at any single European watch company, that is as company that makes watches.

All the best.

As it is, the lover of inquiry must follow his beloved wherever it may lead him.
- Plato, _Euthyphro _



systemcrasher said:


> But Seiko also makes label printers, calculators, glasses, camera shutters and so on and on and on. This reason alone is enough for me to discard Seiko as High End watch brand - Grand Seiko or not...


Okay, it's your right to feel as you stated. When I saw that statement, I asked myself this: What's wrong with being able to walk, talk, and chew gum at the same time? Here are multiple examples of individuals and organizations whereby we praise(d) their excellence at doing more than one thing very, very well.


Decathletes, biathlon contenders...Jim Thorpe
Thomas Jefferson -- naturalist, politician, farmer, lover, architect, inventor
Other U.S. founding fathers -- all of them were very good at several other than politics and returned to those things after their terms in office, and yet they also created the U.S. Constitution, Declarationof Independence and wrote the Federalist Papers.
Leonardo DaVinci - painter, inventor
Carl Linnaeus - botonist, physician and zoologist
Jean-Jacques Rousseau - philosopher, composer, writer
Jimmy Carter -- farmer, politician, statesman
Ronald Reagan -- actor, politician
Gregor Mendel - abbot, astronomer, meterologist, geneticist (surprisingly, he had more to say about the weather than he did about genetics LOL)
Filippo Brunelleschi - master goldsmith who designed and managed the build of the most iconic building in Florence (if not all of Italy), the Basilica of Saint Mary of the Flower's.
Saab -- aircraft, automobiles, missiles
Berkshire Hathaway -- Insurance, utilities, manufacturing, airline services, clothing, building materials, retail, media, need I go on? Surely you aren't going to tell me that BH isn't a high end brand?
General Electric - Manufactures an unreal variety of stuff along with being a major player in financial services, and defense industry manufacturing and airline services. (All Products | GE.com)
So what is wrong with Seiko making more than just watches? Nothing that I can identify seeing as the watches they make are excellent. Sure, the European watch companies make only watches, but really, if you are a company and you only every grow enough to do just one thing really well, just how great a company are you? I have a different view of individual, artisanal watchmakers, Mssrs. Dufour, Genta, Braun, _et al_, for example, but that's not the type of maker that Seiko, PP, ALS, Zenith, Rolex, Omega, Breguet _et al _are and it would be unfair to both types of maker to make such a comparison.

All the best.

BRITANNUS (shocked). Caesar: this is not proper. 
THEODOTUS (outraged). How! 
CAESAR (recovering his self-possession). Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.
- George Bernard Shaw, _Caesar and Cleopatra _


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## The Naf (Mar 31, 2012)

Slightly off topic for a bit:



AbuKalb93 said:


> I think you are underestimating Seiko. Seiko is a very large company and provide a whole selection of brands to choose from, starting with a $50 Seiko to a $375,000 Credor. They have everything to do with Seiko!


Yes...I must say I am rather surprised at the lack of information here on Seiko's Credor range. It *is* in fact a product of Seiko's Micro Artist Studio. It is not merely a brand that Seiko has influence over...rather it is Seiko's answer to Swiss/German Haute Horology...driven more by artistry and finishing than performance. And yes in fact Seiko *did *seek out Phillip Dufuor for advice on finishing during the development of their Spring Drive Sonnerie. Have a read of this very informative article here. You will see that SJX compares the finishing on the Credor to that of Philippe Dufour and even in some cases technically better (though he does say that subjectively Dufuours pieces exude more warmth). Even if you think he's biased have a look at the movement pictures for yourself. The anglage, the polishing, etc

As for Seiko being more capable I would wholeheartedly agree. Think of it this way...Seiko has watches that can compete in terms of quality and price in the mechanical arena with the likes of Orient (5's, 007 etc), Tissot (SARBS & SARX's), Oris & Tag (Ananta), Rolex (Grand Seiko) & PP (Credor). Furthermore it can compete with the likes of Citizen et al in the quartz arena as well.

Lets have a look at just some of the innovations they have brought to the world: Very first quartz wrist watch, Seiko Astron (synchronised via GPS signals), Springdrive, Kinetic, kinetic direct drive etc. Not to mention the fact that they continue to dabble in atomic clocks, radio synchronised watches, multi-function watches, solar powered etc etc.

So you think they're only good in quartz watches? Think again, Seiko has a repuable history with the mechanical Chronograph (think tag more lately) as well as their own magic lever system. Did you know they develop some of their own lubricants and even an alloy called "Spron" which allows for an increased power reserve of 78hours without any other major mechnical modifications such as lowering beat rates etc...

The fact of the matter is that Seiko is indeed one of the most capable watch manufacturers on the planet and can compete in just about any category at various price points. If you were to say they certainly do not have the capacity that Rolex do to produce their GS line or the capacity that PP might have for Seiko's Credor line I would agree. *But *these companies would have *zero* capacity to produce so many of the things that Seiko is producing.

Im not very knowledgeable when it comes to brand history, history of innovation, finishing, movement design etc so I'm sure people like CitizenM (from public forum) would be able to provide a lot more than I have. But yes...more capable...I certainly think so... I'll leave this slightly off track discussion with the following thread from the public Forum:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/weird-wonderful-world-seiko-979692.html

Anyway back to the subject...GS Haute Horology? Nope... It competes with the likes of Rolex (except *perhaps* some of their limited editions which also have work done on them at Seiko's Micro Artist Studio).

*Can *and *do* Seiko do Haute Horology...Absolutely! Think of some of the Fabulous watches bearing the name Credor...(even a minute repeater)

edit: Looks like Tony beat me to it :-D


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

The Naf said:


> Slightly off topic for a bit:
> 
> Yes...I must say I am rather surprised at the lack of information here on Seiko's Credor range. It *is* in fact a product of Seiko's Micro Artist Studio. It is not merely a brand that Seiko has influence over...rather it is Seiko's answer to Swiss/German Haute Horology...driven more by artistry and finishing than performance. And yes in fact Seiko *did *seek out Phillip Dufuor for advice on finishing during the development of their Spring Drive Sonnerie. Have a read of this very informative article here. You will see that SJX compares the finishing on the Credor to that of Philippe Dufour and even in some cases technically better (though he does say that subjectively Dufuours pieces exude more warmth). Even if you think he's biased have a look at the movement pictures for yourself. The anglage, the polishing, etc
> 
> ...


What he said ^


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## Omjlc (Dec 19, 2011)

I consider GS a comparable substitute to the likes of Rolex and Omega. Good, solid watch for a reasonable price but not "high end" (whatever that means).

I was actually considering one of their GMT models but when showing my wife to see what she thought (as I do with all my watches), her reply was: "There is no [insert swear word] way you are spending that kind on money on a Seiko."


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> On the other side of opinions I could not disagree more. The one (and perhaps most important thing) Seiko lacks compared to high end swiss and german brands is finishing. Its not to say the swiss and germans are the only ones capable of high quality hand finishing, but it seems they are the overall winners at the top when comparing others. Sieko isn't even in the same league, and when it comes right down to what is high end vs what is not 80% of it comes down to the quality of finishing in my book. Both the finishing of the movement, and case.


If you ever handle a Grand Seiko finished using Zaratsu blade polishing, you will see that the finish will put many Swiss and Germans to shame. I've owned my share of fine high ends. Many of them are gone, yet the Grand Seiko remains in my collection and it's not going anywhere. The Sping Drive movement is a thing of beauty, and I could on and on about that.

Many associate Seiko as being "below par" and the like, and I love that. Many easily dismiss it as a low-end watch maker, and even more don't know about the existence of GS and Credor. But every once in a while, you run across someone who know much better: I was once out at a restaurant, and a stranger came up to me and said I have a nice watch. I thanked him and said that it was just a Seiko, and then he replied, "Nope, it's a Grand Seiko." He pulled up his shirt cuff only to reveal his own GS. And that's what I love about Grand Seiko.


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## lethaltoes (Mar 5, 2013)

Crunchy said:


> Is it on par with your other high end watches?
> 
> View attachment 1416677
> 
> ...


Yes (and in some ways better) and yes! Cheers!


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## lethaltoes (Mar 5, 2013)

Sassicaia said:


> On the other side of opinions I could not disagree more. The one (and perhaps most important thing) Seiko lacks compared to high end swiss and german brands is finishing. Its not to say the swiss and germans are the only ones capable of high quality hand finishing, but it seems they are the overall winners at the top when comparing others. Sieko isn't even in the same league, and when it comes right down to what is high end vs what is not 80% of it comes down to the quality of finishing in my book. Both the finishing of the movement, and case.


I've got just the Seiko for you!

Seiko "Shinji Hattori Special Model" Limited Edition Watch For Japan | aBlogtoWatch


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## Watchnut12 (Sep 2, 2013)

Yes GS was made to compete with Rolex amongst it's own people.... to show Japan that they can do better.
Now as far as finishing goes, GS finishes its stainless steel like many haute horology Swiss finish their precious metal.
Then theirs the case that their are only 11-13* Master Watch Makers *at GS that build these watches by hand 90% compared to Omega & Rolex where 70% of the watch is *assembled *by a line of 50 to 60 watch *assemblers.

*
For these reasons they aren't the same as Rolex or Omega, but are in price point so they are meant to compete in that factor. Credor was made to compete with the likes of Patek, Breguet etc... this is due to the fact of movement finishing and the use of precious metals... As far as the case finishing, dial and markers the GS and Credor are spot on, which makes it equal to high end Swiss...that's what makes GS special in my eyes. Theirs models with hand painted dials from famous Japanese Artists... Rolex and Omega offer the same from famous model machines.

I love all of them though from Seiko all the way to Patek... all are welcome and get allong well in my watch cases and safes.

Sincerely 
Watch fanboy.....my mammy & pappy just raised me to speak the truth no matter how many people's feelings might get hurt. Lol 

View attachment 1417217
View attachment 1417218
View attachment 1417220


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## mpalmer (Dec 30, 2011)

I think GS makes a fantastic watch, but they are a bit different than many high end watches in that they do not exude haute horology in the classic sense because they seem to have a more practical everyday functional vibe than AP, VC, PP, etc. They lack intricate movement decoration and guilloche for example. Their conservative, yet beautiful styles seem more comparable to Rolex with more interesting movements (at least in the case of the High Beat and Spring Drive).


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## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

tony20009 said:


> Okay, it's your right to feel as you stated. When I saw that statement, I asked myself this: What's wrong with being able to walk, talk, and chew gum at the same time? Here are multiple examples of individuals and organizations whereby we praise(d) their excellence at doing more than one thing very, very well......
> 
> So what is wrong with Seiko making more than just watches? Nothing that I can identify seeing as the watches they make are excellent. Sure, the European watch companies make only watches, but really, if you are a company and you only every grow enough to do just one thing really well, just how great a company are you? I have a different view of individual, artisanal watchmakers, Mssrs. Dufour, Genta, Braun, _et al_, for example, but that's not the type of maker that Seiko, PP, ALS, Zenith, Rolex, Omega, Breguet _et al _are and it would be unfair to both types of maker to make such a comparison.


I never said there is something wrong with Seiko making more than just watches. And I never said they make crap watches either - I just said i don't consider them high end watch makers. Clearly there are differences in those sentences.

While it is true that many people / companies have excelled in many fields, usually most people and companies are known for one or two things that they excel at, not all of their field of excellence. And it is my view that Seiko as company / corporation, they are better known for other things than their watches.

And while you think a company focusing on a specific thing is limiting or it's restrictive, I'm more comfortable with buying things from a company that focuses on their craft. For that same reason I'm more comfortable buying Fender Guitar or Steinway & Sons Piano over Yamaha Guitar or Piano. More comfortable buying a Nikon camera over a Samsung camera.

Same with dealing with people / professionals. If I was looking for a lawyer, I will be looking for someone that does law full time, not someone who does bit of law here, does bit of fashion designing there and works as chef over night. If I want someone to build me a house, I will go to full time construction company, not a company that divides it's resources over 1/3 construction, 1/3 event managing and 1/3 publishing books.

That's just how I feel, just as you think Seiko watches are excellent. I'm not trying to change your views/opinions, just giving my opinion as the OP wanted opinions. Feel so sorry for people who go all defensive just because someone on the internet has different opinion.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

Again, before speaking about Credor, I would urge people (especially Seiko fans) to check out their current product line. I know all the talk on WUS is around their haute horology pieces, but the brand is home to many offerings on a much less detailed, technical and expensive scale.

It is where Seiko expresses their artistic freedom, in contrast to the clean and crisp design aesthetic of Grand Seiko. There are a number of interesting and affordable Credors. Personally, I just can't get past the ghost 2, 4, 7.


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

omeglycine said:


> Again, before speaking about Credor, I would urge people (especially Seiko fans) to check out their current product line. I know all the talk on WUS is around their haute horology pieces, but the brand is home to many offerings on a much less detailed, technical and expensive scale.
> 
> It is where Seiko expresses their artistic freedom, in contrast to the clean and crisp design aesthetic of Grand Seiko. There are a number of interesting and affordable Credors. Personally, I just can't get past the ghost 2, 4, 7.


I hate the 2, 4, 7! To me, it really cheapens the dial


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

systemcrasher said:


> I never said there is something wrong with Seiko making more than just watches. And I never said they make crap watches either - I just said i don't consider them high end watch makers. Clearly there are differences in those sentences.
> 
> While it is true that many people / companies have excelled in many fields, usually most people and companies are known for one or two things that they excel at, not all of their field of excellence. And it is my view that Seiko as company / corporation, they are better known for other things than their watches.
> 
> ...


Okay...yes, the substance of your statement was in fact that you don't consider Seiko high end because they are mufti-talented, multidisciplinary. You are free to take that position and hold on to it if you desire to do so. I respect your right to do exactly that.

My point in listing those people and businesses was to illustrate the incongruity that accompanies the position. I don't mind in the least that you have elected to take that position. I listed two companies, but I can list more, and concerning one I wondered if you think they aren't high end. Berkshire was the specific one. Here are some more for you to consider:

LVMH - Wine and spirits, perfume, cosmetics, clothing, leather goods, retailing, media, etc. 
Kohler - Kohler, Mira and Kallista plumbing supplies, Kohler engines for household and industrial uses, Ann Sacks tile, Baker and McGuire furniture. I don't know if you are familiar with Baker, but if you aren't, go check it out. 
Heritage Home Group - made furniture (filed for bankruptcy last year). Brands included Broyhill, Lane, Thomasville, Drexel Heritage, Henredon, Hickory Chair, Pearson, Laneventure, and Maitland-Smith. Like some of Seiko's products such as their Epson printers or their quartz watches, not everything they make/made is high end, but I doubt anyone would say they don't think Henredon, Hickory Chair or Maitland-Smith aren't/weren't high end just because they are/were divisions of a company that also made non-high end furniture. 

I understand that sometimes a company and the brand associated with the thing(s) the company makes are one in the same. However, the nature of companies is such that once they move past just one product, the brand name often, indeed usually, becomes secondary to the company that makes it. Rolex was at one point just Rolex, but now they are Rolex SA and they have a wholely owned subsidiary called Montres Tudor SA. Compagnie Financière Richemont SA makes several brands of watch -- ALS, VC, Piaget, Cartier, etc. -- but they also make ........, pens, firearms, and clothing. Richemont merely does so and assigns various brand names to the different products. It's no different in principle or concept than all the various brand names that Beatrice Foods have.

When a company opts to produce and sell a good/service, they have multiple choices about how to approach the organization of their entity and about what brand name to assign to their offerings. If there is goodwill (accounting sense) associated with the brand name, the company often retains the brand name. Sure the company may elect to allow its wholly own subsidiaries to operate with a fair degree of autonomy, providing the outward appearance that those subsidiaries are distinct companies, but that it chooses to do so is driven by things that have nothing at all to do with the brand name and everything to do with organizational management, accounting, legal and tax imperatives. It would take nothing more than a change in tax codes/laws or accounting classification (if the company is publicly traded) for the parent company to immediately fold the subsidiary into itself and keep right on producing the same thing and using the same brand names.

The example of Heritage Home Group provides a good example of one benefit of wholly owned subsidiary form of organization, of doing business. In HHG's case, HHG went bankrupt, however some of it's subs may be attractive to prospective buyers. As a wholly owned sub, it's far easier to identify and sell the assets of the respective subs. It's much harder -- logistically and in terms of valuation -- to do that sort of thing when the operations aren't delineated by independent books of record for each line of business. There again, one sees that the motivating factor has nothing to do with the brand and marketing the brand. The company can market the brand the same way regardless of the corporate org chart's nature.

Now, as consumers, it's not often that we want to recognize the business aspect of the companies that make the things we love to covet or buy. Most hobbyists completely ignore the business side altogether, focusing instead only on the items themselves. I cannot ignore the big picture. I'm into watches and as such I prefer to put aside the sophistry that accompanies some of the love or disdain, and reasons for either, my fellow collectors have about certain watches. The intrinsic merits of a given item work for me, but the name of the company who makes it and what else that company makes just doesn't play into the picture.

On the matter of high end-ness, well there're high end watches and there are high end brand names. There are also high end companies, but that has to do with stocks for that's what one must buy to buy a company. (Well, technically, one can purchase the assets of a company rather than its equity and accomplish substantively the same thing as buying the stock; the distinction between the two approaches is irrelevant to a typical consumer.) The thing is that the three things are different. Seiko does make high-end watches. Seiko probably isn't a high end brand name. I don't know if Seiko is a high end company.

Now, I must say I've never thought to myself, "I want to buy a high end watch. Which ones should I consider?" I have often thought that I want to buy a watch having X, Y and Z traits, and then gone about defining a short list of alternatives. That said, were I seeking a watch that had to be high end, I'd probably consider some of Seiko's offerings. You said you won't, and despite my disagreement with your rationale for not considering a Seiko in such a purchase scenario, I fully respect and have no issue with your not considering a Seiko.

All the best.

Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social enviroment. Most people are incapable of [even] forming such opinions.
- Albert Einstein, "Essay to Leo Baeck, 1953"


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

systemcrasher said:


> ...
> And while you think a company focusing on a specific thing is *limiting or it's restrictive*, I'm more comfortable with buying things from a company that focuses on their craft. For that same reason I'm more comfortable buying Fender Guitar or Steinway & Sons Piano over Yamaha Guitar or Piano. More comfortable buying a Nikon camera over a Samsung camera.
> 
> Same with *dealing with people / professionals.* If I was looking for a lawyer, I will be looking for someone that does law full time, not someone who does bit of law here, does bit of fashion designing there and works as chef over night. If I want someone to build me a house, I will go to full time construction company, not a company that divides it's resources over 1/3 construction, 1/3 event managing and 1/3 publishing books.
> ...


Specialization is for insects.
- My business strategy professor

To the contrary, the very nature of a company -- the fact that it's not a human -- is why a company is immensely capable of focusing on and doing multiple things well. I probably wouldn't choose a part time attorney either, but I would choose a full time law firm. That the firm is part of an organization that provides other goods or services wouldn't bother me at all. Consider Deloitte and Touche who are a Big Four accounting firm, but they also provide top notch management consulting services. Consider IBM who manufacture stuff as well as provide myriad professional services having nothing at all to do with the things they manufacture.

As I said before, there's a huge difference between the scope things that an individual can do well and that a company can do well. That said, how might the world be different if the leaders of multiple Italian city states, including Rome, hadn't engaged an artist to aid in their military efforts? Or had not various patrons engaged a military engineer to paint a few pictures for them? Should or the Roman Catholic Church not have chosen a goldsmith to build a cathedral? Should a farmer not have entered politics and penned the Declaration of Independence and later served as President? Should a mathematician, classicist and natural scientist not have taken up law and politics to as to help bring Henry Parkes' vision to fruition? (Samuel Griffith) Was a gentleman farmer unsuited to form a government? (John Hope)

As I said above, I respect your privilege to have the POV you do, but I disagree with its rationale. Following your line, we wouldn't have St. Mary of the Flowers, Italy might instead just be part of France, or maybe we wouldn't have a Mona Lisa or DaVinci Code. Maybe the U.S would just be part of the U.K and so might still Australia be.

All the best.

Intellectually curious men become generalists. Intellectually lazy men settle for being specialists.
- Mokokoma Mokhonoana


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## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

I understand your point of view completely and I can see how you come to that too..But most of your examples are from by gone era. The world sort of has changed since the Ancient Rome period, Classical or Renaissance era or even from the 50-70s.

As someone who can play piano - with few awards mind you , bass guitar, draw with pen, pencil, water colour paint, sculpt, do things in Photoshop, in 3D, make videos - whether it be advertising, wedding videos, short film or as as my job requires, make TV show, I do photography, I can develope films like the traditional way, or print using digital printers such as Frontier or D-lab or Epsilon, i can service my own car, i put in $2000 sound system in my car, although it took 3 days.... i build my own computers, can shame Porsche Cayman driver around a track using my Renault Megane RS250, worked on coupla feature films in my life, latest being extra in the Wolverine movie, I have a BA in communications and Master degree in design and longest essay I've written in my life consisted of 36000 words.

Now with all this generalised skills, the way I see it in 2014, I rather be a specialist heart surgeon than a general medical practitioner, or rather be Piano specialist in Vienna or Prague Philharmonics than some dude who knows how to play few instruments to some degree if you know what i mean  I have found that it is extremely hard to be regarded a best of something, if you spread your skills sets too much. While it is important that people do things outside their "profession", I think to be "high-end" or World's best, you need to hone your skills and generalising, in my view, sort of hinders that.

And I just want you to know, that I know almost everything we buy come from about 10 mega corporations and pretty much everything we watch, come from about 5 media corps. And i blame them for this world gone to ****e. 

lastly, I don't know if your business strategy professor is saying "Specialization is for insects" as an insult, as in "people who specialise are insects" kind of tone, but if that's the case, please let you professor know, that insects are the best adapted to this world and in case of global catastrophe, they will be the ones that survive, because they are so specialised 

by the way, good discussions Tony and I retract my previous comment regarding you being super defensive.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

Tony, I actually wasn't addressing your post or attempting to present any counterpoints to it.

I consistently see Credor associated on WUS with only their most expensive pieces, when in reality they make up a very, very small percentage of production. It would be the equivalent of discussing Zenith purely in terms of their Academy line, or only mentioning grand complication Pateks. Then again, discussing the high-endless of brands as opposed to individual watches often proves a fruitless endeavor. Though perhaps the somewhat homogenous nature of Grand Seiko lends itself better to the discussion than many other brands.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

Additionally, to be clear on my position, in my opinion Credor unquestionably makes "high-end" watches, and Seiko's history and current achievements in horology don't require nearly the defense they receive on WUS; they more than speak for themselves. And if people are hard of hearing I don't much see the point in shouting about it.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

AbuKalb93 said:


> I hate the 2, 4, 7! To me, it really cheapens the dial


I know what it represents, but yeah, it's not to my tastes either. But I respect their commitment to a consistent design cue.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

systemcrasher said:


> I understand your point of view completely and I can see how you come to that too..But most of your examples are from by gone era. *The world sort of has changed* since the Ancient Rome period, Classical or Renaissance era or even from the 50-70s.
> 
> As someone who can play piano - with few awards mind you , bass guitar, draw with pen, pencil, water colour paint, sculpt, do things in Photoshop, in 3D, make videos - whether it be advertising, wedding videos, short film or as as my job requires, make TV show, I do photography, I can develope films like the traditional way, or print using digital printers such as Frontier or D-lab or Epsilon, i can service my own car, i put in $2000 sound system in my car, although it took 3 days.... i build my own computers, can shame Porsche Cayman driver around a track using my Renault Megane RS250, worked on coupla feature films in my life, latest being extra in the Wolverine movie, I have a BA in communications and Master degree in design and longest essay I've written in my life consisted of 36000 words.
> 
> *Now with all this generalised skills, the way I see it in 2014, I rather be a specialist heart surgeon than a general medical practitioner*, or r*ather be Piano specialist* in Vienna or Prague Philharmonics *than some dude who knows how to play few instruments to some degree if you know what i mean * I have found that it is extremely* hard to be regarded a best of something, if you spread your skills sets too much*. While it is important that people do things outside their "profession", *I think to be "high-end" or World's best, you need to hone your skills and generalising, in my view, sort of hinders that*.


_Note: this part of my post is just additional illustrations of the same point I made a few posts above. It differs only in that I cite examples where individuals of today have proven themselves to be very accomplished generalists: Oprah, Paul Newman, Dan Brown and Vanna White. If you aren't inclined to read or consider that, skip to the next section of this post. There is, in about the middle, a specific discussion on your point about doctors, followed by my own story (the briefest of them all) of evolving from specialist to generalist._

The world we see differs dramatically from that of DaVinci and the others to whom I referred. Some of the changes facilitate generalization and some inhibit the value of it and make specialization preferable and advantageous, particularly when one is the individual/company that must choose a strategy for achieving results. Broadly speaking, that the pace of life and learning is much faster makes it possible for a person to demonstrate prowess in multiple areas.

The increased pace of skill and knowledge development is particularly relevant in something like watchmaking where the skills to do it well really haven't changed since A.L Breguet's day. The tools, materials, and the engineering advancements are in some instances different, but the skills to make an excellent fancy watch are not at all. Were Breguet, or P. Phillipe, Hattori, Vacheron or Constantin alive today, they could crank out fine watches every bit the equal of what their namesake companies do, and but for whatever materials and technology improvements they might incorporate, the watches wouldn't be appreciably different from those they made hundreds of years ago or from those their companies made this morning.

Concerning individuals, and what one individual can accomplish very well and largely by themselves, it's much easier for a person to learn vast amounts about many things. I think you can see that manifested in the youth of many a great watchmaker, be they from the past or the present. It just doesn't take 2/3rd to 3/4ths of a career to be very good at making watches. If it did, folks like Mr. Journe, Mr. Braun, the McGonigle Brothers, and many others wouldn't have gained the recognition they did some 10+ years ago, and several wouldn't have been doing it long enough to even now -- in their forties -- be recognized as great.

Let's consider someone outside of watchmaking: Oprah Winfrey. She hosted and produced ran a supper successful and popular talk show and won an Emmy for it along with multiple People's Choice Awards. She publishes a magazine that _Fotune_ called the most successful start-up in publishing and I've seen that magazine in the homes of every rich African American I know; it's something of a Town & Country for black folks as best I can tell. She started a television network from scratch (at two years old, it's a bit soon to venture to say just how excellent it is). She created a first rate school. She has one Oscar and was nominated for others: best supporting actor Oscar and Golden Globe (didn't win either). She has a Peabody award and a Presidential Medal of Freedom award. She's also written several books, one about fitness of all things.

I think it's safe to say that publishing, education and talk shows/acting and network production each require a very different set of skills and yet, Miss Winfrey has done -- as far as we can judge fairly -- an excellent job at every one of them. She's not alone in being able to do multiple things very well. Take Paul Newman. Mr. Newman, an Oscar winning actor, was born in 1925, but only began racing cars in the 1970s and came in 2nd place at LeMans and won at Daytona at the age of 70. Dan Brown, author of the DaVinci code was a teacher for a time at Phillips Exeter, one of the top schools in the U.S. but started his life as singer/songwriter. Now he's a writer of historical fiction. There are many more writers who had successful careers doing things entirely unrelated to successfully writing gripping, entertaining fiction.

I don't know if a TV game show called _The Wheel of Fortune_ is something you folks have in Australia. It's a show that displays a word or phrase on a wall comprised of squares that rotate about a vertical axis. One side of the square is blank and the other has letters. A woman named Vanna White has the sole requirement of standing in an evening gown and rotating the square to reveal the letters when they are correctly guessed by the contestants. Now say what you will about that, but Ms. White owns a successful transportation business. (https://www.claylacy.com/) I know it's not on the Oprah-scale of things, but it is successful and it has absolutetly nothing to do with looking pretty, acting or writing, other things she's done.

I'd like to discuss the two types of medical doctors you mentioned. That you'd choose a specialization over general practice is fine and a choice that many doctors make. However, there is a need for both types of physician. As a patient, I don't want to go to a cardiac surgeon because I have a pain in my stomach. I also don't want a general practicioner installing a pacemaker. From the perspective of a med school student choosing what type of career to pursue, well, they have to choose to specialize or not based on a number of exigencies: Work/life balance, personality, work environment, intellectual interest, demonstrated proficiency, and compensation to name a few.

I can imagine a surgeon maybe shifting to general practice. It's harder to imagine a GP shifting to surgery, largely because surgery requires certain physical skills that, like it or not, weaken with age; a successful GP (something that will take a good 10-15 years to achieve and put one in their late 30s or eary 40s), by the time s/he gained the needed skills and credentials to perform surgery might not have enough "good years" left to actually make having done so worth the effort. (maybe some doctors here can add a differnt perspective ??) To that end, I believe the ways in which the world has changed since the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment mandate that one either be a generalist or specialist.

My own story, however, illustrates that that isn't necessarily so for all professions. I began my career as a CPA and rose rapidly as one. I later picked up an MBA and became a management consultant. Initially I was a generalist type of consultant. Over time I came to focus on the financial service industry and their specific needs. I later extrapolated what I'd learned earlier to serve clients in telecom, utilities, manufacturing and media and also learned about the specialized needs of businesses in several industries. One of the ways I bring value to my cleints is by being able to tranfer successful strategies and tactics I've learned outside their industry and give them innovative solutins to their specific business challenges. Along the way, I published two papers (I have no idea how many words <wink>) I learned how to manage, inspire and motivate large groups of people. So I started out as one kind of specialist, became a generalist and now, you tell me...am I a generalist or a specialist?

The point of all that is that people, individuals, who are going to be successful will and do transform themselves as they need to in order to excell and in order to achieve the things they want. They evolve.

Companies are somewhat differnt from individuals in that they can evolve and change far more rapidly -- within the context we are discussing -- than can individuals. That's becaus they can buy the resouces the need to do so. If Boeing wants to start making watches, they'll buy a factory, hire great craftsmen and "poof," they are making excellent watches. You and I can't do that no matter how hard we try. Even Oprah can't and Leonardo couldn't.

Now, if your eyesight and manual dexterity hold up, with the proper training and resources, five years from now, you could make as good a simple watch as anything coming out of PP's factory -- Nautilus, Calatrava, or Ellipse. Could you put out a first rate tourbillion or minute repeater or grand complication watch five years from now? Perhaps not. But with 10 or 15 years of experience under your belt, sure you could. So the question really is should you or would it be economically feasible for you to even endeavor to do so? If you are 35 or 40 now, almost certainly the answer will be "no."



systemcrasher said:


> And I just want you to know, that *I know almost everything we buy come from about 10 mega corporations* and pretty much everything we watch, come from about 5 media corps. And* i blame them for this world gone to ****e. *
> 
> lastly, I don't know if your business strategy professor is saying *"Specialization is for insects" as an insult*, as in "people who specialise are insects" kind of tone, but if that's the case, please let you professor know, that insects are the best adapted to this world and in case of global catastrophe, they will be the ones that survive, because they are so specialised
> 
> by the way, good discussions Tony and *I retract my previous comment regarding you being super defensive*.


Red:
You and I quite likely share several common thougths on that matter. Most of what I think about it has to do with the political impacts and cultural manipulative power those organizations wield. Since political discussion isn't allowed, I'll leave it at that.

Blue:
No, my professor meant no insut at all and neither did I by repeating her.

The statement is a metaphor that points to the fact that among social insects, each insect has a very specific role and they are excellent at their given roles, but lousy at performing other roles. Take bees for example. The queen is good at two things: laying eggs and fighting other queens. The workers are excellent at gathering/producing food, caring for eggs/larvae, and defending the hive. The drones are good at breeding. If the queen dies and another cannot be created, some workers may lay eggs, but try as they might the eggs they lay can only produce more drones, so the hive dies. (Yes, I'm aware of the phenomenon of thelytoky, but it's rare enough as not to matter for the sake of this discussion.)

Unlike social insects, human individuals are capable of many things, even though reproduction of the species is specialized. So her point was that as humans and particularly as people seeking careers in business, it was essential for us to learn how to be adept at multiple disciplines and how to take the concepts we learned in a wide array of areas -- science, math, literature, economics, social sciences, etc. -- and look at them and understand how they can be applied and explotied to business problems in order to proviide innovative solutions.

Another quote from her is "Success in business is about finding holes and filling them. Nobody gives a damn what you put in the hole so long as it's safely and competely filled." It's the exact same general message, but delivered from a differnt direction. Whatever tack one prefers to take, I can see the merit of specilizing as well as being a generalist. I think, and so did my professor, that individuals can be very successful either way, and so can companies. The key distinction I think she was making and highlighting is that in the world we were entering, it's the folks who can do multiple things well who ultimately end up running things. She often used the small business owner as her example. It's great that Roland over at RGM is an outstanding watchmaker, but if he can't also run a successful business -- something requiring a very different set of skills -- he should work for someone instead of working for himself. Roland and his small business owning brethren must be generalists.

Green:
Thank you. I find the discussion interesting and while I will defend a line of thought, you are correct about it not being a matter of my being defensive. Apologies to you if I ruffled your feathers. That wasn't my intent either. As you noted, it's just a discussion and let's face it, it's about watches. Neither of our worlds is ending over whatever either of us thinks about a watch or a watchmaker. 

All the best.

A healthy argument is always good; it opens one's eyes to own misunderstandings.
- Ashok Kallarakkal


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

omeglycine said:


> Tony, I actually wasn't addressing your post or attempting to present any counterpoints to it....


No, you sure weren't. I'm sorry.

I don't know how but somehow your comment ended up being the one that got quoted. It was a complete mistake. I've adjusted it now.

TY for calling it to my attention.

All the best.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

tony20009 said:


> No, you sure weren't. I'm sorry. I don't know how but somehow your comment ended up being the one that got quoted. It was a complete mistake. I've adjusted it now. TY for calling it to my attention. All the best.


No worries whatsoever. I've enjoyed your thoughtful and thorough (as always!) contributions to this thread.


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## Watchnut12 (Sep 2, 2013)

This is all good when said and done... I agree 100% that an *Individual* with a set skill in a certain craft has a higher chance rate of success in today's time, as you said "2014" To keep the conversation relevant to wrist pieces, I would even 
Agree with you if we where talking about a independent watch maker... This however is not the case, we are speaking about Seiko, a multi billion dollar corporation who has the money and capabilities to start multi companies within its umbrella hiring the best individuals who have spent most of their life studying their craft and mastering it.

It's so funny, when reading these discussions people are speaking as if Seiko is a individual watch maker like an independent Swiss. Seiko is a Corp. that has Master Watch makers like the independent Swiss, difference is these watch makers work for Seiko instead of on their own.. Whoever thinks that this ties Seiko hands with its watch makers being able to put out a luxury item that surpasses many luxury tastes with quality and innovation is delusional.. think about it they have endless funds for research and development. Please do a search for the Credor Spring Drive Minute repeater that is actually being sold for double its asking price at $800k or even on Spring Drive itself.

Lastly, which company or individual do you know that is successful that doesn't have their sites on expanding? May it be in different fields or not, the real winners are always looking to grow and put more acolytes under their belt.

Sure the romance and marketing of getting a watch from an independent is great, though again we are mixing things that aren't relevant to quality and innovation at the end of the day.. no matter how beautifully the commercials and youtube videos make it seem to be.



systemcrasher said:


> I understand your point of view completely and I can see how you come to that too..But most of your examples are from by gone era. The world sort of has changed since the Ancient Rome period, Classical or Renaissance era or even from the 50-70s.
> 
> As someone who can play piano - with few awards mind you , bass guitar, draw with pen, pencil, water colour paint, sculpt, do things in Photoshop, in 3D, make videos - whether it be advertising, wedding videos, short film or as as my job requires, make TV show, I do photography, I can develope films like the traditional way, or print using digital printers such as Frontier or D-lab or Epsilon, i can service my own car, i put in $2000 sound system in my car, although it took 3 days.... i build my own computers, can shame Porsche Cayman driver around a track using my Renault Megane RS250, worked on coupla feature films in my life, latest being extra in the Wolverine movie, I have a BA in communications and Master degree in design and longest essay I've written in my life consisted of 36000 words.
> 
> ...


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## TJMike (Jan 30, 2014)

I have a PhD, my work is highly specialized, sometimes I think I am an idiot savant, but I really like the GS range of watches. I do not know what that makes me, but I would never not like GS and/or Credor because Seiko do more than make watches. If something is good, it is good. Then again, to each their own.


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

It does reflect in the product, where something is done thru sheer will to outperform, and the other a result of centuries old natural development of culture and art.

The brands like PP, AP, VC, ALS were centuries old artisan born companies. They bring with them a sense of romaticism and culture, reflected in the pieces. PP and AP are even still family run and owned to this day.

Seiko is a giant conglomerate, even though the founding family still owns shares,they are akin to the samsungs, LG, GE. Thru huge resources and determination, they could spend tons of money and and man hours to come up with great new ideas, and engineering prowess. The product however, looks like a sleek refrigerator or TV. 

Now, I'm a big fan of japanese culture, food, and art. But take a look at the other centuries old japanese goods such as tea sets, kimonos, samurais, sake, martial arts etc. Even modern day cultural products such as manga, J pop, clothing, are so unique that they can be easily identified and uniquely japanese.

For the grand seiko, i can't help but feel they have just made a sleek airplane or rocket. They could have made it more uniquely japanese, but they did not. Remove the seiko from the dial, and nobody can tell where the watch came from. In fact people would probably think it was swiss, with many of the design cues similar to the ones used in classic swiss watch ala patek et al.

Mechanical watches are at best romantic anachronisms. We spend thousands of $$$ probably not to get the sleekest most high tech product. While we appreciate engineering, craftmanship and ingenuity, we also value originality, history, art, aesthetics, culture, and prestige (branding). My feeling is that the latter ingredients are missing from the grand seiko.

I suppose if it was to compete with rolex being industrial superstars, it may be close. But. I think seiko missed the point. Rolex was born as a workman's watch. One that can survive shocks, extreme temperature and deep waters. From those came about the robust, engineered movement and aesthetical looks. If you compared vintage rolexes,they were not so finely made as today's modern rolexes. They were workhorses meant to be banged around and survive. Sure, seiko can run +2/-2, but so can a good regulated rolex. But can seiko be used in a submarine mission, on a oil rig, on a warzone in afganistan? It's too pretty to be doing all those.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

The Naf said:


> Slightly off topic for a bit:
> 
> Yes...I must say I am rather surprised at the lack of information here on Seiko's Credor range. It *is* in fact a product of Seiko's Micro Artist Studio. It is not merely a brand that Seiko has influence over...rather it is Seiko's answer to Swiss/German Haute Horology...driven more by artistry and finishing than performance. And yes in fact Seiko *did *seek out Phillip Dufuor for advice on finishing during the development of their Spring Drive Sonnerie. Have a read of this very informative article here. You will see that SJX compares the finishing on the Credor to that of Philippe Dufour and even in some cases technically better (though he does say that subjectively Dufuours pieces exude more warmth). Even if you think he's biased have a look at the movement pictures for yourself. The anglage, the polishing, etc
> 
> ...


Everything he has said is absolutely on point.

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk


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## lmcgbaj (Aug 7, 2012)

I am sure they make fantastic watches. There is no doubt there but I find the designs a bit sterile for my tastes. I never found myself drooling over a GS as I do over other watches.


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## Watchnut12 (Sep 2, 2013)

I agreed with just about everything you said accept this: "For the grand seiko, i can't help but feel they have just made a sleek airplane or rocket. They could have made it more uniquely japanese, but they did not."

I beg to differ:















You can see from the side of my SBGR083 the Japanese flair of the case... it's the perfect Ananta case! The second pic you can see the difference to my Rolex Milly... if you took of the names I could easily tell you which was Swiss and which Japanese... Also GS does an excellent job for putting in Japanese characteristics as anyone can to a watch like the Snowflake or any of the LE.... Also GS & Credor have their LE pieces hand painted by famous Japnese Astrisans, not all but most.


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

Watchnut12 said:


> I agreed with just about everything you said accept this: "For the grand seiko, i can't help but feel they have just made a sleek airplane or rocket. They could have made it more uniquely japanese, but they did not."
> 
> I beg to differ:
> 
> ...


Respectfully, how exactly does the ananta case show the japanese flair?

If they painted GS by japanese artisans I would really like that!


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## Watchnut12 (Sep 2, 2013)

Well the Ananta casing or Japanese style casing is designed like the Japanese Katana... Hand crafting a Japanese Katana is an art form to itself which I won't go into right now. You see the similarities in the curvature of the case designs all the way to the sharp sword like hands.

As for the hand painted dials, here's my Ananta Kumadori:







 Seiko has gone to Mr Isshu Tamura to help express the heroic timepiece. For those who are not familiar, Mr. Tamura is a renowned Japanese Maki-E lacquer artist who has done some tremendous work. Best known for his work for Sailor pens, Mr. Tamura also executed the lacquer dial on last by hand painting every dial with a special lacquer technique that takes over 8 hrs to complete each individual dial... the dial is finished of with red stripes that symbolizes the hero in Japnese culture amongst the tail of the Kumadori.

Seiko does this with GS pieces as well, I'm not to the point of a fan boy to pinpoint exact models. I'm sure someone here more knowledgeable on these models can point them out. I'm to old to be searching Google and posting examples here..LOL!


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## The Naf (Mar 31, 2012)

Crunchy said:


> Respectfully, how exactly does the ananta case show the japanese flair?
> 
> If they painted GS by jap artisans I would really like that!


With respect to the case shape I think he alludes to it in the other very respectable Seiko he mentions viz the Ananta. Look at any of the Seiko's with the similar sleek lines we have come to associate with GS from seiko 5's to SARBS to the GS itself. The lugs (together with the entire watch case) have a downward curvature with a sort of skulpted outer edge. Here's a review of the Orient Star Somes together with pictures better describing what I mean. Scroll down to the case review where he compares it with a Seiko SARB. You can appreciate that there is definately something uniquely Japanese (albeit in a subtle way) about the case shape.

There possibly are other uniqely Japanese elements but in general I would tend to agree with you. *But* that is the point I guess. GS is Seiko's attempt at making the best, most functional mechanical/quartz/hybrid time piece ever. So whilst it may incorporate *some *of its unique japanese heritage that is certainly not its goal. GS is uniquely Seiko and *not * necessarily uniquely Japanese. Swiss watches on the other hand strongly play the card of provenance. It comes down to a difference in philosophy. And I guess that is probably a reason why GS tends to polarise people. It is most definately not trying to be a Japanese watch in the same way the Swiss/German brands are trying to be Swiss/German watches.Faced with this very different approach to watch making people end up in "yay" or "nay" camps with respect to GS. GS is primarily focussed on functional excellence. This is the reason why a lot of its designs appear to some to be somewhat sterile and lacking originality, whereas to others they seem to be perfectly balanced, functional and therefore beautiful.

As regards to credor Omegaglycine is correct in that the brand itself is not entirely High end. I was merely drawing reference to some high end Credor watches to prove that if Seiko really wanted to do High end they could and indeed in limited cases do. But as we have already discussed, in general, their brand philosophy is different.

So where does all this leave GS with respect to High End? In the middle I guess. High end, well at least in the sense that I understand it, has a lot to do with adding aesthetic beauty over and above function. Very few will argue that a lot of the work down on High End movements add very little via way of functional improvements. That being the case our (well mine anyway) definition of High End is not entirely congruent with what appears (on the face) to be the driving philosophy at Seiko. Yet I find it hard to lump it in the same train as the likes of Rolex, Omega Glycine as it is yet again very different to those brands. Grand Seiko take "functional" perfection to the extreme and that is something I see very few companies doing. And if it sounds like I'm a bit biased well then hey I guess I am


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Crunchy said:


> *It does reflect in the product, where something is done thru sheer will to outperform, and the other a result of centuries old natural development of culture and art.*
> 
> The* brands like PP, AP, VC, ALS were centuries old artisan born companies.* They bring with them *a sense of romaticism and culture*, reflected in the pieces. PP and AP are even still family run and owned to this day.
> 
> ...


There is a lot of romanticism associated with watch collecting. That's the emotional aspect of the hobby and I get it. Well, not personally as much as other folks here might, but I understand the concept and I respect it, but I don't buy into it as much as some folks, even folks who are my close watchie friends. Indeed, the emotional vs. rational is often the topic of many an enjoyable discussion/debate between my friends and me. We all learn a lot from those discussions.

I can live just fine with the emotional drivers of choice until it starts parading around like it's rational. I rail against that sort of thing -- as you've seen no doubt -- when it comes from other consumers. I do so because the watch companies already direct enough of that stuff my way to, to put it kindly, inspire me to spend my money on their stuff.

I like and agree with the spirit of pretty much all you've said above. I'm not so certain about the factual presentation, but the emotional themes, well, yes I get that. I wouldn't deny the soul of them from you or anyone.

Here are some areas where I'm less clear about the factual pesentation above.


Conglomerate: Mr. Hatori started out as a watch repairman and then moved into making clocks. He didn't do watches until the 1920s. Seiko didn't start out as a much more than a shop in a building, yet that it did happen speaks directly to my earlier post's point about Seiko being a better company. Going from watch repairman to clock maker to watchmaker to conglomerate doesn't lack for romantic appeal, but it was hardly an overnight evolution. Indeed, it's so "pulled up from one's bootstraps" it could easily be any Westerner's rags-to-riches tale. Verily I doubt any of the great names of horology were gentry to start. They may have been, but it seems unlikely given the era and how they began their companies. Landed gentry didn't open shops as tradespeople back then. the bought stuff from tradespeople and commissioned them to do things. All the same, neither do I think the "founding fathers" of watchmaking were from the destitute class either. 
1913 - First Japanese made wristwatch: Laurel (below). I don't know that I would know it Japanese/Seiko if it didn't say Laurel and I knew what that meant. Ditto the first GS, excepting that it says Seiko on the dial. (below) 
"Swiss Design Cues:" this is the one bit that I don't get the letter or spirit of what you said. I say that with a sincere and keen interest in learning more about what exactly are "Swiss design cues." I don't understand that term is because a great many of the big names in watches (past or present) didn't start out being Swiss. (VC and AP were entirely Swiss, of JLC -- LC -- was and J wasn't) PP, Rolex, Breguet, ALS, GO, FPJ, and many more weren't/aren't Swiss at all, but their companies are. Indeed, of one writer's list of the top 15 watchmakers of today, 12 aren't Swiss (The 15 Greatest Watchmakers - WSJ.com). That's one of the reasons I so often say "the dirt upon which it's made has little if anything to do with whatever good there is about a watch."

The questions below are the ones I cannot answer within the context of that term or any similar ones that reference a different country's design cues, but as you will see, I made a stab at it.
What styling traits are so pervasive in the vast majority of Swiss watches -- regardless of who makes them -- that they could be called "Swiss design cues?" I get that sort of thing with cars, Teutonic austerity for example in German cars, or plush warmth in high end British cars, but I am at a loss to identify the same characteristics for Swiss watches -- high end or not. 
What design elements would you have expected to see that would make any watch -- Seiko's or someone else's -- uniquely Japanese? 
Seeing as half of PP's founder were Polish, shouldn't we call the PP style Polish design cues? 
A.L. Breguet was French, so do that mean the emblematic guilloche we see today is actually French design cue? 
How much of the styling we see these days is but an evolution of watchmaking in the U.S. from the 1800s to the middle 1900s? 

Seiko was originally "Seikosha," which means House of Exquisite Workmanship. Check out this book: _A Journey In Time: The Remarkable Story of Seiko_. There's a lot of romance in that book, but there're are a lot of facts too. 
Originality, history, art, aesthetics, culture, and prestige: Okay...well all of that is the romantic stuff, and to a degree it's the stuff that evokes some of the passion that letst he call of a watchb be heard by many a consumer/collector. I get that. The culture and prestige, espececially the prestige, don't do a thing for me. The art and aesthetics certainly move me, but the aspects of those attributes that call me may repulse others. That's fine. _Suum cuique_. Original aesthetics do matter to me, and I must fully agree with point re: the styling originality of the GS watches -- they all look effectively alike to me, and they look like Oysters. Original engineering only appeals to me if it passes the "so what?" test. Bulls have tits too. The history does a bit for me, but within a limited context.
GO is a good example of what I mean. That GO was founded in 1994 (or arguably in 1951) doesn't affect my attraction to several watches they make. Two of my children have more history than do GO. I'm not too sure about how original GO's designs are. Elements of them are - mostly some of their numerals -- but for some of them, there's no telling who between them and ALS laid the egg and who hatched from it. However, even if ALS used the style first, IMO, GO executes it with more flair, IMO, so I don't care that ALS was first. 

Not a factual thing here, but just an incongruity that, as it grew, perplexed me more and more.
You liken the Seiko to a jet or missile/rocket. 
You describe early Rolexes as workhourses and not so fine as today's 
You imply that today's Rolexes aren't workhorses as much as the earlier ones were. 
You describe today's Rolexes as having a "robust, engineered movement." 
Then you come back to the Seiko and wonder if it's tough enough to go to war or to the bottom of the ocean. This after likening it to a jet or rocket....??? Now I don't care how sleek or not sleek a jet is, delicate isn't what they are. Generally speaking, a jet plane operates as close to 24 hours a day as the airline can get it and they do so for nearly 20 years. I suppose freighters and trains are more workhorsey than jets... 
Lastly you say the GS is "too pretty," yet only just before had you said that for you the GS lacks both art and aesthetics. ??? All at the same time it's lacking artistic and aesthetic value and yet pretty enough to be too pretty for hard work. Really? 

With all due respect, if you are referring to today's Rolex Oyster movements as "finely made," I have to ask you if you genuinely believe what you wrote. Did you really mean to say that? (see pics below) Today's Rolexes are every bit the workhorses their antecedents were, perhaps more so, but not being a vintage watch guy, I can't argue that point credibly without doing a lot of research and making a trip to a museum. (Hong Kong Watch Fever) I think they are somewhat less affordable these days, however. 

Again, I'm glad you responded to my post and I'm eager to learn more about how recognize Swiss styling cues. I've often said I'm more fashionista than watchonista, so that will be good info that I can use going forward.

All the best

All the knowledge I possess everyone else can acquire, but my heart is all my own.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Seiko Laurel Seiko.............................................. Grand Seiko - 1960
















Rolex movement - this is the one that goes in the Day-Date watches (aka President)


Looking at that movement, I see_ perlage, anglage, _ and _dressage _on the rotor. There may be some _brouillage_ on hidden bits. Now I don't want to take away from the fact that Rolex did all that to the movement, but let's face it, _perlage, dressage _and _brouillage_ are basically sandpapering techniques and even an unfinished higher quality ETA movement is likely to have the latter two done straight off the assembly line (second pic below) simply becasue of the functiaonal benefit of doing it. 










Rolex 3135 -- This is the one that is the basic movement buyers of non-Day-Date or Daytonas will get. You can see a lot of that beveling isn't there.









Rolex 1560 (introduced in 1959) - the no date movement









Unfinished ETA movement - brouillage and dressage is nerly all I see. I see anglage on the screw holes, but I suspect that's functionally driven.










One company's finished ETA movement -- ETA movements may not start out so fancy looking, but there's nothing stopping them from ending up that way. Though this movement is elaborately engraved, it's nowhere near as elaborately finished as an ETA can get.


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

Tony I appreciate your post and it is very informative.

I shall respond to the questions later, but will just leave this as food for thought in the swiss design cues part.


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## darby11 (Mar 29, 2012)

Not high end, but nice, for sure

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

omeglycine said:


> Again, before speaking about Credor, I would urge people (especially Seiko fans) to check out their current product line. I know all the talk on WUS is around their haute horology pieces, but the brand is home to many offerings on a much less detailed, technical and expensive scale.
> 
> It is where Seiko expresses their artistic freedom, in contrast to the clean and crisp design aesthetic of Grand Seiko. There are a number of interesting and affordable Credors. Personally, I just can't get past the ghost 2, 4, 7.


I 100% agree. If you ask me, the Credor Eichi is the most beautiful watch I have ever laid eyes on......accept for those awful cartoonish ghost numbers. I have never seen such a baffling f up of an otherwise perfect design. And when I say perfect, I mean absolutely flawless in every way......imo of course.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

Watchnut12 said:


> I agreed with just about everything you said accept this: "For the grand seiko, i can't help but feel they have just made a sleek airplane or rocket. They could have made it more uniquely japanese, but they did not."
> 
> I beg to differ:
> 
> ...


Yeah, I totally agree. For those of us that have both fine Japanese, Swiss and German watches (at least for me) you could remove the names and I could very easily tell you which ones were from which place. They are all very unique design wise.

As an aside, I am not sure if you are aware Crunchy but I believe the term "Jap" is construed as a racial slur by some Japanese people. I learned in high school that it was a derogatory term that was used by allied forces during WWII to describe Japanese soldiers/citizens, very analogous to the term "****" during the Vietnam war. It seemed like you had no idea, but I just wanted to throw it out there that some may take that as an insult. This also could just be because I am American and this wasn't common knowledge in other parts of the world and if thats the case then feel free to disregard my ramblings.


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## lethaltoes (Mar 5, 2013)

Crunchy said:


> Now, I'm a big fan of japanese culture, food, and art. But take a look at the other centuries old japanese goods such as tea sets, kimonos, samurais, sake, martial arts etc. Even modern day cultural products such as manga, J pop, clothing, are so unique that they can be easily identified and uniquely japanese.


Samurais you say? Hmm....


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## CROSS (Aug 16, 2008)

Omjlc said:


> I consider GS a comparable substitute to the likes of Rolex and Omega. Good, solid watch for a reasonable price but not "high end" (whatever that means).
> 
> I was actually considering one of their GMT models but when showing my wife to see what she thought (as I do with all my watches), her reply was: "There is no [insert swear word] way you are spending that kind on money on a Seiko."


sorry to butt in the conversation  just seems like such an interesting exchange that I cannot help but comment 
actually the 'appeal' if you can call it such , is that GS uses the brand Seiko on the dial ...it makes it 'anonymous'. precisely 'spending that kind of money on a Seiko' that nobody else would know , unless you're a watch nut , is the great appeal of a Grand Seiko 

and that is why GS is always on my list if ever I find the 'urge' to get another watch 

regards
cross


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

gagnello said:


> Yeah, I totally agree. For those of us that have both fine Japanese, Swiss and German watches (at least for me) you could remove the names and I could very easily tell you which ones were from which place. They are all very unique design wise.
> 
> As an aside, I am not sure if you are aware Crunchy but I believe the term "Jap" is construed as a racial slur by some Japanese people. I learned in high school that it was a derogatory term that was used by allied forces during WWII to describe Japanese soldiers/citizens, very analogous to the term "****" during the Vietnam war. It seemed like you had no idea, but I just wanted to throw it out there that some may take that as an insult. This also could just be because I am American and this wasn't common knowledge in other parts of the world and if thats the case then feel free to disregard my ramblings.


I don't think it's a racial slur in my part of the world. I'm from Asia, just like japan, and we don't have derogatory terms for any asian people 

Apologize if it may be miscontrued by american japanese folks.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

Crunchy said:


> I don't think it's a racial slur in my part of the world. I'm from Asia, just like japan, and we don't have derogatory terms for any asian people
> 
> Apologize if it may be miscontrued by american japanese folks.


Thats why I put the last sentence in there. I wasn't sure if that was just some random thing that Americans learned in school and that it really wasn't the case in the rest of the world. Your response leads me to believe that that is actually the case.


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## little big feather (Mar 6, 2013)

AbuKalb93 said:


> I find it easy to believe. My sister was in Japan a couple years back and wanted to get an awesome looking phone. Apparently it had Disney characters on it. The SA denied her the purchase saying she had to provide a home address within Japan or she cant get it. I find that pretty cool actually, but then again I have a thing for exclusiveness.


I lived in Japan for three years...They have a strange and complicated thing about telephones go only with a telephone number...
That was probably the reason.....It's like you sell your telephone number to another person when you leave Japan and the phone 
has that number registered to it.


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

gagnello said:


> Thats why I put the last sentence in there. I wasn't sure if that was just some random thing that Americans learned in school and that it really wasn't the case in the rest of the world. Your response leads me to believe that that is actually the case.





Crunchy said:


> I don't think it's a racial slur in my part of the world. I'm from Asia, just like japan, and we don't have derogatory terms for any asian people
> 
> Apologize if it may be miscontrued by american japanese folks.





gagnello said:


> As an aside, I am not sure if you are aware Crunchy but I believe the term "Jap" is construed as a racial slur by some Japanese people. I learned in high school that it was a derogatory term that was used by allied forces during WWII to describe Japanese soldiers/citizens, very analogous to the term "****" during the Vietnam war. It seemed like you had no idea, but I just wanted to throw it out there that some may take that as an insult. This also could just be because I am American and this wasn't common knowledge in other parts of the world and if thats the case then feel free to disregard my ramblings.


Interesting guys, I learned something (thx Crunchy). gagnello, I can confirm your understanding. I'm Japanese-Okinawan and growing up in Hawaii, our schools were an eclectic mix of local kids and "visiting" kids in large part because of the number of military bases here. I have friends to this day that were met that way. I clearly remember though (not w/o some remorse, kids being kids) having a "sometimes physical discussion" with another guy when the term "jap" was thrown my way (it wasn't a compliment or endearing term). The discussion started when I questioned: "Wat you said, haole?". Ah, childhood . . . . .


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## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

tony20009 said:


> Red:
> You and I quite likely share several common thougths on that matter. Most of what I think about it has to do with the political impacts and cultural manipulative power those organizations wield. Since political discussion isn't allowed, I'll leave it at that.


lol yep hush hush before we get done for treason or have corporate lawyers knocking on our doors XD



tony20009 said:


> Blue:
> No, my professor meant no insut at all and neither did I by repeating her.


no worries, just wanted to clear it up, as sometime these forum posts dont necessarily convey one's meaning and intentions too well i found.. But yeah man, i respect ants and bees for their crazy organisation and engineering. If they were cunning like us humans, we'd be doomed.



tony20009 said:


> Green:
> Thank you. I find the discussion interesting and while I will defend a line of thought, you are correct about it not being a matter of my being defensive. Apologies to you if I ruffled your feathers. That wasn't my intent either. As you noted, it's just a discussion and let's face it, it's about watches. Neither of our worlds is ending over whatever either of us thinks about a watch or a watchmaker.


No need for apologies mate, you didn't ruffle any feathers - like I said before, our tone and intentions sometimes don't carry well over these text based posts 

And exactly as you pointed out, these are personal opinions and it's chill, not end of world apocalypse.



Watchnut12 said:


> It's so funny, when reading these discussions people are speaking as if Seiko is a individual watch maker like an independent Swiss. Seiko is a Corp. that has Master Watch makers like the independent Swiss, difference is these watch makers work for Seiko instead of on their own.. Whoever thinks that this ties Seiko hands with its watch makers being able to put out a luxury item that surpasses many luxury tastes with quality and innovation is delusional.. think about it they have endless funds for research and development. Please do a search for the Credor Spring Drive Minute repeater that is actually being sold for double its asking price at $800k or even on Spring Drive itself.


Yep I realise that Seiko is a Corp. And I have purposely not discussed Credor as the forum is focusing on Grand Seiko - to me they are two very different mustards 



Watchnut12 said:


> Lastly, which company or individual do you know that is successful that doesn't have their sites on expanding? May it be in different fields or not, the real winners are always looking to grow and put more acolytes under their belt.


No doubt that there are heaps of companies that are always looking to expand - in fact I have said earlier, most things we buy and watch come from 10-15 mega corporations. But even 20-30 years ago that was vastly different. The market was shared by so much more individual corporations and companies. For example, there were over 50 different media corps in US during 60-70s, not just a handful like now.

And I see that nowadays, this expanding is done by bigger corporations by buying out the smaller specialised companies. While from the head office's point of view, yes, the company/corporation is expanding, venturing into new fields, adding assets and you may call that expanding, I call it monopoly XD.

But there are also standalone companies that specialise on one or two things but still do exceptionally well globally, until they get bought


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

C'mon guys, cut them some slack.

They already make the best case finishing (Zaratsu finish) in horology, and now you expect them to make elaborately decorated movements?
It would literally be unfair for the Swiss, Germans, et al.
There wouldn't be any competition left at all if Seiko made better decorated movements. And it would lead to further animosity from the Swiss brands against Seiko.

The only con I see with GS is the over-simplistic/bland designs.
It's a love-it-or-hate-it thing.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

entropy96 said:


> C'mon guys, cut them some slack.
> 
> They already make the best case finishing (Zaratsu finish) in horology, and now you expect them to make elaborately decorated movements?
> It would literally be unfair for the Swiss, Germans, et al.
> ...


I'm not going to pretend to give a damn whether the Swiss/Germans suffer at the hands of Seiko. I might have more "love" for the Europeans if they would stop behaving like entitled princes and improved the value proposition associated with their watches.

As things stand today, I buy European watches because they are the ones offering the looks I like best, not because I fell they are the better value. Know, however, that every time I'm about to buy another watch, I look hard to see if there is a non-European option available that would suit me just as well. Whereas I can say the Japanese and Chinese and Americans have justly earned whatever sums I spend on their products, for the Swiss and Germans, it's more by default than anything else.

There are multiple things the Swiss/Germans could do to earn business:

Offering stainless steel dress watches would be a good start for quite a few of them. I don't necessarily mean the ones that make fewer than 1K pieces per year, but it wouldn't hurt there either.
Expanding their product lines to make themselves more accessible to more people. MB, BMW, myriad fashion houses, appliance manufacturers, and just about every other consumer goods industry segment has figured out that doing so has a positive not negative impact on their business and on the value of their brand. Even Rolex figured it out. People may be "ooh ahh" over the diamond studded or solid gold Day-Date (DD) model, but what they love about Rolex is that they can buy just as good a Rolex watch for a hell of a lot less than the price of a Rolex DD watch. That's been a win-win for both the consumer and for Rolex. Creating a mutually beneficial situation is what it means to earn someone's business, ardor and respect.
Full Disclosure -- Integrity and telling a complete story always garners more respect than painting only the most favorable picture.

All the best.

They say it is better to be poor and happy than rich and miserable, but how about a compromise like moderately rich and just moody?
- Diana Princess of Wales


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## TJMike (Jan 30, 2014)

gagnello said:


> Thats why I put the last sentence in there. I wasn't sure if that was just some random thing that Americans learned in school and that it really wasn't the case in the rest of the world. Your response leads me to believe that that is actually the case.


In many parts of the English speaking world "Jap" is considered an insult, not just in America.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

drhr said:


> Interesting guys, I learned something (thx Crunchy). gagnello, I can confirm your understanding. I'm Japanese-Okinawan and growing up in Hawaii, our schools were an eclectic mix of local kids and "visiting" kids in large part because of the number of military bases here. I have friends to this day that were met that way. I clearly remember though (not w/o some remorse, kids being kids) having a "sometimes physical discussion" with another guy when the term "jap" was thrown my way (it wasn't a compliment or endearing term). The discussion started when I questioned: "Wat you said, haole?". Ah, childhood . . . . .


Ok, I'm glad I wasnt crazy. Man, you poor bastard.....growing up in Hawaii. That must have totally sucked. 

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

tony20009 said:


> There is a lot of romanticism associated with watch collecting. That's the emotional aspect of the hobby and I get it. Well, not personally as much as other folks here might, but I understand the concept and I respect it, but I don't buy into it as much as some folks, even folks who are my close watchie friends. Indeed, the emotional vs. rational is often the topic of many an enjoyable discussion/debate between my friends and me. We all learn a lot from those discussions.
> 
> I can live just fine with the emotional drivers of choice until it starts parading around like it's rational. I rail against that sort of thing -- as you've seen no doubt -- when it comes from other consumers. I do so because the watch companies already direct enough of that stuff my way to, to put it kindly, inspire me to spend my money on their stuff.
> 
> ...





What I mean by "Sleek Jet" is: Well engineered, tried to be made "pretty" by very detailed polishing and hand work, but to me it's not as artistic as a Patek or Lange. I feel that the decorations and dial design were created by engineers and not by artists. It seems that they somehow reverse engineered some characteristics of popular watch models, and tried to do the same but on a more extreme level. It wasn't thru experimentation, risk taking or creative thinking that created the final product look and design.

In terms of robustness, I'm sure modern grand seiko will probably not falter if used in a mountain expedition. However many of the grand seiko inventions such as spring drive, etc were not made for these purposes. Whereas for Rolex, the screw down crown, self winding movement (screw down crown made it hard to manually wind a watch), 904 steel were invented to survive the elements. Rolex is predominantly a sports watch with the exception of the celini line. Is GS a sports or dress watch? It seems like a do all type of watch, but it doesn't help shape the "character" of the watch.

In terms of swiss design cues, from the pics in my previous post, It seems that the hands on the modern GS is more inspired by patek's sword hands than by katanas. That example shows how old seikos were direct homages to the popular swiss watches such as calatravas and datejusts. In fact, the current GS case can be argued to be a explorer 1 copy. Compare that with the designs by modern swiss and watchmakers such as UN, FM, RM, AP, VC, and IWC. the watch designs are very original, looking nothing like any calatrava or explorer 1.

These are my opinions, which are up for discussion. Just like the fact that a few people pointed out there are some GS models that have paintings by japanese artisans, I am open minded to accept a differing view if there are counter examples to my less informed perpectives.

(Last note, please excuse the English slangs that I don't know about, as I said I'm from Asia, and I feel that I'm no different racially with Chinese, Japanese, Singaporean, Thai, Korean or Mongolian.)


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Crunchy said:


> 904 steel were invented to survive the elements.


Probably, but Rolex uses it just for marketing reasons and to justify high price. Because so far I haven't seen a watch damaged only because of the weakness of the "ordinary" SS (in other words, one that would survived if made of 904 steel).


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

Okapi001 said:


> Probably, but Rolex uses it just for marketing reasons and to justify high price. Because so far I haven't seen a watch damaged only because of the weakness of the "ordinary" SS (in other words, one that would survived if made of 904 steel).


Here:


lysanderxiii said:


> 904L Stainless Steel:
> 
> <0.02% C, 19-23% Cr, 23-28% Ni, 4-5% Mo, <2.0% Mn, <1.0% Si, <0.045% P, <0.035% S, 1.0-2.0% Cu
> 
> ...


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

gagnello said:


> Ok, I'm glad I wasnt crazy. Man, you poor bastard.....*growing up in Hawaii*. That must have totally sucked.
> 
> Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk


:-d As is true with most things in life (for me) I didn't realize what I had/have. While I don't necessarily miss all the "nuances" of my childhood/youth, I long most for the Hawaii of old, b4 all the commercialization (which has benefits, too I realize, but . . .). Now, lookin' back/reminiscing, that was baaaaaddddd . . .;-)


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## The Naf (Mar 31, 2012)

Crunchy said:


> InIn terms of swiss design cues, from the pics in my previous post, It seems that the hands on the modern GS is more inspired by patek's sword hands than by katanas. That example shows how old seikos were direct homages to the popular swiss watches such as calatravas and datejusts.


No doubt Seiko has also dabbled in some homaging with some of their cheaper watches but I find it difficult to believe that is the case (at least not deliberately) with GS.

As for the dauphine hands you refer to they are fairly generic and there is no direct evidence that the origin of these are Swiss. Even if they are they are certainly not tied to any particular brand in history. It appears that its origins have been lost in time and it has become part of public domain. Perhaps the its origins were French. Perhaps English? Don't forget that at some point in the past Swiss watch makers were more than happy to pass off their watches as English. The Swiss haven't always been the so called "masters" of the trade. Perhaps in this case Patek and GS were merely borrowing from the same pot. So if its OK for Patek to do it why not GS.

We make a lot of assumptions about old Swiss houses but the reality is that everyone in the watch industry to some extent "borrows" from a very large pot of a fairly generic set of design cues. Hands, dial markers, etc all can be assumed to be generic unless you have something very much associated with the brand such as Breguet with their particular shaped hands or Journe with his signature hands. Whether the origins of this pot are Swiss or otherwise is hard to say and quite frankly irrelevant. Very few brands have been able to survive without taking from them. They have become somewhat ingratiated into the public eye as representing what a watch should be like and few watchmakers dare to challenge that.

Edit: let's consider something like guilloche on a dial? Is that a Swiss design que? Certainly brands like Vacheron and Brequet are famous for this craft but the technique itself is very old and does not have its origins in watchmaking or Switzerland for that matter.

The Naf


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

shnjb said:


> Is this really true?
> 
> It seems that many Japanese (not just watch companies) are not interested in maximizing monetization lol.


I have dealt with several Japanese companies who hold their domestic market sacred and give the rest of the world only the "left over" production time even if it costs them profit. I don't know how Seiko feels but from the outside looking in they have adopted this view. Japanese car companies have a much more "Western" view when it comes to profit and market share outside of the JDM.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

GS doesn't meet my definition of high-end but it may meet yours.


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

High end means quality and price TOGETHER in my mind, therefore GS is definitely high end to me.

If in-house equals high end, then Orient is high end. However, price and quality would suggest otherwise.

Anyone saying that it's just a Seiko are the same type to say a Lexus is just a Toyota. They just don't get it.


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## flame2000 (Jun 27, 2007)

GS is definitely high end to me. I've handled one and the quality is comparable to some of the top Swiss brands. Someday I would love to pick one up.
And the 9S65 movement is simply a technological marvel. 72hrs power reserve on a *SINGLE barrel* running at a spec -3/+5 tighter than COSC. |>
I doubt there are any Swiss watches capable of that doing that. :think:


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

ilitig8 said:


> *I have dealt with several Japanese companies who hold their domestic market sacred and give the rest of the world only the "left over" production time even if it costs them profit.* I don't know how Seiko feels but from the outside looking in they have adopted this view. Japanese car companies have a much more "Western" view when it comes to profit and market share outside of the JDM.


Interesting, and somehow not surprising given my past interaction with the japanese mindset . . .:-!


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## Domo (Sep 20, 2013)

Everything that needs to be said has already been said (Damn! I missed this one LOL)

High-end forumers, I can understand the apprehension, but if you can, get out there and try one on. I know reading the gushing reviews (guilty  is a bit un-nerving, but seriously, they're that good. This is a brand that has only been distributed in the west for 4 years, and look at the amazing traction it has. That's no small achievement. I can't believe the amount of people on public (read: NOT f21) that own one now and many more are wanting. I know seeing them in the flesh is hard but if you can, you might like what you see.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

flame2000 said:


> GS is definitely high end to me. I've handled one and the quality is comparable to some of the top Swiss brands. Someday I would love to pick one up.
> And the 9S65 movement is simply a technological marvel. 72hrs power reserve on a *SINGLE barrel* running at a spec -3/+5 tighter than COSC. |>
> I doubt there are any Swiss watches capable of that doing that. :think:


The $150 Swatch Sistem 51 has a 90 hour power reserve on a single barrel. Although Patek is not know for long power reserves their Patek Seal watches have tighter accuracy specs than the 9S65 and they are tested in case and and dynamic infinite positions. Not taking anything away from the 9S65 there are quite a few Swiss movements that can best it, though I am unaware of any at the price point. One thing to keep in mind is most Swiss manufacturers use COSC which doesn't mean they can't beat COSC, for any tighter spec they would have to set up their own inhouse testing like Patek and it probably isn't cost effective for many of them.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

CM HUNTER said:


> High end means quality and price TOGETHER in my mind


So are you saying that high-end must be a bang for the buck OR are you saying high-end must be accompanied by some minimum price?


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

ilitig8 said:


> *I have dealt with several Japanese companies who hold their domestic market sacred and give the rest of the world only the "left over" production *time even if it costs them profit. I don't know how Seiko feels but from the outside looking in they have adopted this view. Japanese car companies have a much more "Western" view when it comes to profit and market share outside of the JDM.


Yep, that happens in more consumer goods categories than one might at first think: cars, toys/games, watches, ideas/innovations, phones, food, even kimonos and textiles. That the GS line was only relatively recently sold outside Japan is but one example.

Personally, I think the reason is part pride driven, but I also think that the competitive environment is much keener in Japan. The latter resulting in companies actually working harder to deliver value and earn their customers' business. Some of the things you can read of here at least suggest that to me: The Top 25 Things In Japan Most Likely To Blow Foreigners' Minds | RocketNews24. In that sense, I think it'd be great to live in Japan. .

(Great as some of that stuff is, I just refuse to willfully choose to put down roots in a place prone to earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and tidal waves.







I won't move to the West Coast of the U.S. or Hawaii for the same reasons....ditto the flood plain of the central U.S.)

One other thing... If I were to judge by the handful of Japanese luxury goods consumers I've met, I'd say the "fan boy" attitude among the Japanese for their own "top of the market" goods is far more strident than anything I've seen on WUS. But I don't generalize like that, so I'll just say that it pertains to those individuals and not to the majority of Japanese people.

All the best.

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.
- Adam Smith, _The Wealth of Nations_


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

FWIW, this isn't new, but methinks it worth reading: https://www.watchuseek.com/f365/cos...-standards-comparison-339975.html#post2523813

I'm aware of COSC standards, and, thanks to our dear HEW moderator, "Fleurier Quality," but it's worth noting Grand Seiko watches have their own standard too much like JLC do. According to Seiko: 

High Level: FAQs on Grand Seiko - FAQs - | SEIKO WATCH CORPORATION
Specific criteria that a GS must meet: 9S Mechanical | Grand Seiko | SEIKO WATCH CORPORATION . If this sort of stuff matters to you, be sure to read the "Remarks" section at the bottom right corner of the page. The identify what calibres correspond to what accuracy ratings.

All the best.


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## lethaltoes (Mar 5, 2013)

ilitig8 said:


> GS doesn't meet my definition of high-end but it may meet yours.


GS didn't meet my definition of high end either. Instead it challenged my definition as did the "independents". Cheers!


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

From the seiko website quoted by tony:

"When Grand Seiko was conceived in the 1960's, it was to be the "Best Basic" watch in the world. The idea was that form would follow function and that Grand Seiko would have everything essential, and nothing superfluous. The sobriety of the design of every Grand Seiko watch flows from this simple, but powerful, idea."

I guess seiko wanted to be the best basic watch and not a high end watch. So it rests the case whether seiko is high end or not.


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## Watchnut12 (Sep 2, 2013)

Here you go, the real post from the Grand Seiko website... I guess it does settle it:

December, 1960. Grand Seiko was born. The goal that inspired its creators was hardly a modest one. They were determined to create nothing less than the *best luxury *watch in the world.Before the watch came the standard it had to attain. The "Grand Seiko Standard" of precision and reliability was set at a level higher than any yet achieved by SEIKO and higher than all the international chronometer standards. The challenge was substantial, as new skills and technologies were required in order to meet and exceed the new Grand Seiko standard.Today, just as fifty years ago, Grand Seiko is focused on the pure essentials of watch-making. Grand Seiko strives to provide lovers of fine watches with the ultimate, functional watch. Each and every Grand Seiko is as accurate, as reliable, as legible and as comfortable to wear as can be achieved. Grand Seiko is everything a luxury watch should be, with no unnecessary elaboration or undue decoration​


Crunchy said:


> From the seiko website quoted by tony:
> 
> "When Grand Seiko was conceived in the 1960's, it was to be the "Best Basic" watch in the world. The idea was that form would follow function and that Grand Seiko would have everything essential, and nothing superfluous. The sobriety of the design of every Grand Seiko watch flows from this simple, but powerful, idea."
> 
> I guess seiko wanted to be the best basic watch and not a high end watch. So it rests the case whether seiko is high end or not.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Crunchy said:


> From the seiko website *quoted by tony*:
> 
> "When Grand Seiko was conceived in the 1960's,* it was to be the "Best Basic" watch in the world*. The idea was that form would follow function and that Grand Seiko would have everything essential, and nothing superfluous. The sobriety of the design of every Grand Seiko watch flows from this simple, but powerful, idea."
> 
> I guess seiko wanted to be the best basic watch and not a high end watch. So it rests the case whether seiko is high end or not.


Don't blame me because Seiko didn't know high end from from high horses. <winks and chuckles>

By my standards, any watch that is well put together and performs well enough to be considered among the best in the world of anything, even arguably, is high end enough in my book that it really doesn't matter, regardless of what it costs to buy one.

I look at it like this: The Bentley Brooklands coupe is fast, powerful and you can run it around Imola if you want to. It's as high end as any car is going to get. Now whether it will actually outperform my 335i coupe, an entry level MB AMG, or even a Subaru WRX is open to question. However, there's no question that the Bentley will cosset your backside, and make you feel like every bit of the millionaire you probably are to have been able to buy and maintain it.

I want a GS. But I want a Brooklands too, and if/when I get one, I won't mind wearing the GS as I shred my tires around the turns at VIR. I think this story from my wild and crazy youthful days show partly why I don't care whether the GS is high end or not.

All the best.

[Cue Twilight Zone theme]

This story takes place on a sunny Saturday afternoon in Providence, RI, in a neighborhood shopping center lot quite similar to this one.










It was the late 70s and I was in college. I and a couple friends - Bags and Tiger - were going to the shopping center to buy a keg of beer. It was a very busy moment at that little shopping center and so we decided to "stand" behind cars that were parked in the front row of the parking lot. Bags and I stayed in the car. Tiger went inside to get the keg.

As we sat there, a woman backed out of the very first space in one of the aisle lanes behind us. Right about then, an early 70's, maybe late 60s, grey Caddy drove down the front line, and switched on the right turn signal. The Caddy was driven by an older lady who was in her late 50s to mid 60s. She was driving at "normal parking lot speed."



















The Caddy had just passed us and turned into the left side of the lane back there. The car stopped and just then, a loud, rumbling red and white convertible Mustang raced past the Caddy and took the spot. It had come from the rear end of the aisle and everyone could hear the throaty rumble of the big V8 motor and the slight protest its tires screeched as he smoothly turned into the space and stopped just short of a lamp post standing guard at the front of the space.










The Mustang's driver, a young college guy with longish sandy brown hair and the beginnings a tan, hopped out of the car. As he was heading toward the record store, the old lady started honking at him and got out of her car. She yelled at him: Hey! Young man! What do you think you're doing? That was my spot!










The guy swings his head, turns around, not missing a step and walking backwards, gets to the store's entrance and replies to the woman, "That's what you can do if you have a fast car." And with a pep in his step, and a glide in his stride, he opened the door and stepped inside.

Bags and I laughed like crazy! We felt bad for that poor old lady, but laughed anyway. It was funny!!!

At about that time, Tiger came out with another dude carrying a keg. We put the keg into the trunk and started the car to leave. While we'd been doing that, the old lady had gotten back in her car. Bags and I, still chuckling, began to tell Tiger about what had just happened: ."Yatta, yatta, yatta. Blah, blah, blah,...and then, the guy..."

*VROOOM! SCREEEECH!! BAM!!* Traffic out on the street stopped! We jumped and looked to see what had happened.

That old lady had backed straight into his car, pushing it into a lamp post! That boy no longer had a car; he had an accordion!







The pole was bent at an angle! The front and back of his car were utterly destroyed! Even his windshield glass was shattered and mostly gone. The back end of her car looked like a Shar Pei than a car.










At that point, it had seen better days, but still looked a damn sight better than any part of his car.









Bags, Tiger and I all at the same time, "No she did not just do that!!!"







We were completely flabbergasted. We sat there mouths wide open, eyes bugged out, staring at the carnage.







The smell of burnt rubber drifted into our car and for that split second you could hear angels whisper.

Right then the door to the record store flew open. The guy came running out. The old lady, seeing him headed toward her, then had her own comment. "That's what you can do if you [have a lot of money]!" She then floored the gas and disappeared.






























We howled!!! We bounced up and down and howled!!! We howled so hard we cried!!! Tiger fell out the back door of the car!!!

And then we got ourselves somewhat together and drove away. And that was that.


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## flame2000 (Jun 27, 2007)

ilitig8 said:


> The $150 Swatch Sistem 51 has a 90 hour power reserve on a single barrel. Although Patek is not know for long power reserves their Patek Seal watches have tighter accuracy specs than the 9S65 and they are tested in case and and dynamic infinite positions. Not taking anything away from the 9S65 there are quite a few Swiss movements that can best it, though I am unaware of any at the price point. One thing to keep in mind is most Swiss manufacturers use COSC which doesn't mean they can't beat COSC, for any tighter spec they would have to set up their own inhouse testing like Patek and it probably isn't cost effective for many of them.


The Swatch Sistem 51 is running on 21,600vph (3hz). GS 9S65 movement are 28,800 (4hz) movement. I'm sure you are aware that tuning down the beat rate effectively extend the power reserve of a watch. :-d
Well, if Seiko were to tune down the frequency of their GS watch movement to 3hz, they probably might even get 100 power reserve on a single barrel. ;-)
There are some new movement recently that are >72hrs power reserve. Like the Tissot Powermatic 80. But that one is also running at 21,600vph too. The fact is I haven't seen a Swiss watch movement capable of running more than 72 hrs on a single barrel, at 28.800 (4hz). :-(


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## Blunderact (Aug 7, 2012)

I still have a few pop corn, a drink and a good view. Keep them coming!!


Blunderact


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## Watchnut12 (Sep 2, 2013)

LOL, just like the scene from the movie "Fried Green Tomatoes"..... accept is was a couple of young girls who did it to the "Misery" lady and after she crashes into their car she says older people have more insurance.



tony20009 said:


> Don't blame me because Seiko didn't know high end from from high horses. <winks and chuckles>
> 
> By my standards, any watch that is well put together and performs well enough to be considered among the best in the world of anything, even arguably, is high end enough in my book that it really doesn't matter, regardless of what it costs to buy one.
> 
> ...


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Watchnut12 said:


> LOL, just like the scene from the movie "Fried Green Tomatoes"..... accept is was a couple of young girls who did it to the "Misery" lady and after she crashes into their car she says older people have more insurance.


Wow...I guess I need to see that movie.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

Bags and Tiger, you had me at hello. I wish I had the time and impetus to tell my Cowboy and Hippy story though they were NOT my friends. Cowboy, Hippy, a good samaritan, hotage, guns, crank, cops, ambulance, a guy name Cornbread, a motorcycle gang (3 piece patch MC), an ol' lady, an Asian gang, a car chase, a truck stop, lot lizards and a girl that waited 7 hours for me in a hotel room while I went just across the street for beer. I have no way to relate this to watches, except I was wearing one, just as well since not a soul I have told the story to believes a word of it, other than it took me 7 hours to get beer.


In the end each of us here has a definition we associate with the term high-end and its relationship with watches and each one of them is accurate for the individual. For me to include GS into my definition of high-end I would have to reevaluate a whole host of watches from quite a few brands which I am not prepared to do since I am perfectly satisfied with my definition and criteria. Just like Cowboy and Hippy I chose a path and made a plan and see no reason to veer off even when by all outside accounts the plan is flawed. None of these makes me less likely to buy a GS, it is on my list and I will own one when I find the right one. 

Maybe Grand Seiko should build an LFA and put this all to bed. But alas their self imposed mission statement will prevent them from such whimsy and for that I applaud them, much respect for also being a kindred spirit to Cowboy and Hippy, but I didn't think they were high end either.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

tony20009 said:


> Wow...I guess I need to see that movie.


Just don't eat the BBQ at the Whistle Stop.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

ilitig8 said:


> Bags and Tiger, you had me at hello. * I wish I had the time and impetus to tell my Cowboy and Hippy story* though they were NOT my friends. Cowboy, Hippy, a good samaritan, hotage, guns, crank, cops, ambulance, a guy name Cornbread, a motorcycle gang (3 piece patch MC), an ol' lady, an Asian gang, a car chase, a truck stop, lot lizards and a girl that waited 7 hours for me in a hotel room while I went just across the street for beer. I have no way to relate this to watches, except I was wearing one, just as well since not a soul I have told the story to believes a word of it, other than it took me 7 hours to get beer.
> 
> In the end each of us here has a definition we associate with the term high-end and its relationship with watches and each one of them is accurate for the individual. For me to include GS into my definition of high-end* I would have to reevaluate* a whole host of watches from quite a few brands which I am not prepared to do since I am perfectly satisfied with my definition and criteria. Just like Cowboy and Hippy I chose a path and made a plan and see no reason to veer off even when by all outside accounts the plan is flawed. None of these makes me less likely to buy a GS, it is on my list and I will own one when I find the right one.
> 
> *Maybe Grand Seiko should build an LFA and put this all to bed. But alas their self imposed mission statement will prevent them from such whimsy and for that I applaud them, much respect for also being a kindred spirit to Cowboy and Hippy, but I didn't think they were high end either.*


Cowboys & Hippies:
Maybe some day....sounds like it'd be a killer story.

Reevaluating:
Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. Hard to say....Perhaps, however, you can just watch Star Trek: Wrath of Khan and apply Kirk's approach to the Kobayashi Maru: change the rules, not the game. LOL. To that end, you'd find it easier tol adjust the definition rather than revise your perception of the watches. I wouldn't suggest one cheat the process when it affects others, but when it benefits oneself and hurts nobody else, it seems a good, ethical and moral solution.

Before joining WUS, I never had a definition for "high end." In my mind it meant pricey, fancy watch or class of watches. That was really it. When I said "high end" to my friends, I didn't tell them what that meant in my mind, and yet somehow they knew/know exactly what I was talking about, which without exception, was a general class of watches, and not whether any one watch/brand is or isn't a member of that class. When my friends use that term, my mind doesn't immediately rush to any specific watch or brand.

It's like if they asked me, "Does a bear poop in the woods?" I don't wonder whether they specifically mean wild Sun Bears, Polar Bears or Brown Bears or captive bears in zoos and circuses. I don't wonder whether they mean the tiny patch of woods behind my home, the Monongahela National Forest the Northern arboreal forests or the rain forests in Borneo. But I do know the answer is "yes" and I understand the subject of the conversation, which most assuredly has nothing to do with bears, poop or woods.

Thus what plucks my last nerve about all the banter about what is and isn't high end. When someone says, they've been considering to buy a high end watch and such and such a watch is among those they are considering, why is it incumbent on a choir of folks to dwell on whether the watch they are considering is or isn't "high end?" Providing the person with such "enlightenment" is neither providing them with actionable information that will help them assess the watch itself, nor is it going to save them from some dangerous social, moral, economic, ethical or other faux pas.

What it will do is let the _"discipulus" _know that much of the input they'll receive from that _"magister_" should be heavily discounted rather than valued and heeded. It can do nothing else, for neither God nor Gabriel, Mohammed. Moroni, Michael, or Buddha revealed to them the divine truth of high end-ness. Maybe one day that will happen and someone will start the The Holy Church of High End and Haute Horology. Until that day comes....well, you know....

LFA:

+100

Well, as I opined above, personal definitions are malleable. So too are corporate mission statements. Just like high end-ness, it is and means what the maker of the statement says it is/means. A company would be fool to let outsiders define for them what their mission means and whether any corporate action they take is consistent with that mission. So too, I, not they, would be the fool to let others tell me what I mean when I use the term high end.

All the best.

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
- Maya Angelou


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