# The Grand Seiko Killer has landed!!



## Jesus Jones

Enter the dragon: The Citizen AQ 4020-54Y. Best quartz watch in the world? Read the full article here... - https://deployant.com/review-enter-...n-aq-4020-54y-best-quartz-watch-in-the-world/

What comes to mind when one thinks of Citizen watches? Probably inexpensive watches, robustly built. Made for the masses. While this is true as the name Citizen was actually given to the first watch they produced in 1924 for this very reason - as a watch for the citizens of the world. But we also discern a true engineering spirit from within the company. After all, this is a corporation who makes in excess of 200 million watches a year, and led not by professional managers or sale/marketing people, but by engineers. And from this rich engineering heritage, comes interesting technology. Like Super titanium. Like Eco-drive. This brings us to the subject watch. Simply labelled as The Citizen, aka The Chronomaster. A very special quartz watch with features a zaratsu polished case and a washi paper dial. Could this be the best quartz watch in the world?


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## James A

Good article and great watch. No doubting the engineering prowess of the Citizen staff .However I want to see them with stronger designing chops. They should get away from their (me to) design philosophy. Across the brand portfolio they must have some great design talent - I wish they would bring those people to the fore.


















Interesting watch but would be better if they had their own design language.

Regards,


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## Jesus Jones

I couldn't agree more. Perhaps this is just the Japanese way watches should look... But I agree, I need more to move me from buying this over a Grand Seiko. 

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## mj043

Looked up prices and these are still $2,500+ The watch looks great but I’d rather get a used GS at that price


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## GlennO

***** Jones said:


> I couldn't agree more. Perhaps this is just the Japanese way watches should look... But I agree, I need more to move me from buying this over a Grand Seiko.


It's just the typical Japanese watch aesthetic, been the same since the 60's. I find it aesthetically pleasing. I sold my Grand Seiko quartz. Currently have 2 Chronomasters/The Citizen. If Seiko updates the 9F movement I might consider GS again. Currently The Citizen HAQ's are functionally superior.


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## ten13th

The technology on this watch is amazing and would go toe-to-toe with any other watches I have, GS quartz/SD/high-beat included. The execution of the dial is fascinating from a technology perspective and visually unique and elegant. The fact that each dial will be different due to nature of washi paper that is just awesome. I'm looking forward to adding this to my collection in the near future.


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## sblantipodi

The finishing is no where near to a Grand Seiko


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## GlennO

sblantipodi said:


> The finishing is no where near to a Grand Seiko


Mine are. Wouldn't have offloaded my GS otherwise.


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## tmathes

sblantipodi said:


> The finishing is no where near to a Grand Seiko


Have you compared the two side-by-side to make such a statement? But I fully agree with other commenters on the blandness of the design. I love how the minute markers appear to float over the dial but am not a fan of the low-contrast look.

Personally I'd prefer to wait to see what Citizen comes up with using their newly announced 0100 movement. I just hope those watches aren't JDM like all of their other high-accuracy quartz offerings. One thing Seiko has over Citizen in that regard is the Grand Seikos are vastly easier to purchase than these Citizen offerings, I can buy the GS's domestically and with a domestic warranty.


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## GregNYC

Perhaps the Citizen boutique in Times Square will dare to stock this model....

I prefer not to buy quartz watches sight-unseen. I like to personally verify the alignment of the second-hand on the indices. Many times it aligns better at the top of the dial than at the bottom, etc.....


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## Rocket1991

It's very beautiful watch in Japanese way. Very nice function vise as it VHQ, solar and perpetual calendar. It not directly goes against GS rather targets same segment. It not like new Omega will be Rolex killer. Both have their places and audiences. 
Citizen recently been putting very impressive quartz watches. Also i noted unique dial texture patterns on GS and Citizen. It really unique and beautiful.


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## John MS

Lovely Chronomaster. One feature that I believe takes Chronomaster a step above the Grand Seiko is the independently adjustable hour hand. Not having to disturb the minute and second hand when adjusting for time zone changes is a plus on such an accurate watch.


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## King8888

It is not really a GS killer if they are the 2k5 above except for being solar powered (I love that). If it happens to fall around 1k5 to 2k, I would buy it right away.


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## tmathes

Hate to be the party pooper here but design wise it's just boring looking. Yes, the dial has a lovely pattern but a white dial with silver hands, no matter how well finished, are just dull and boring. 

The other thing that hampers the watch is the JDM thing, at least with GS you can get them in other markets. Having to contort yourself to find a Japanese dealer that will sell outside of Japan is a pain (and I hate ordering from abroad, what you pay in customs is a complete guessing game). Only WIS's will do that, for other watch buyers they won't even know the Chronomaster exists, unlike a Grand Seiko.

While it's nice watch it ain't going to knock GS off the perch, there's a lot more than just an ultra accurate movements to making a great watch. Design is just as big a factor, GS has their share of boring designs but they also have quite a few stunning designs too. My Omega Speedmaster can't remotely compete with the accuracy of this Chronomaster but design wise the Speedy has it all over any Citizen, as does my Aqua Terra Skyfall. There's more to "perfect" than just a super-accurate movement and some exceptional case/dial finishing.


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## GregNYC

I actually like this watch’s 1960’s Japanese design cues. My first impression was that Citizen definitely had their eye on Grand Seiko, from the white dial color that seems to be GS’s safest bet with dresssier watches, to the texture that’s reminiscent of GS’s Snowflake and the “Blizzard” (SBGA125) and the linen dials. 

As I mentioned, I really do like the dated look, not to mention the independently set table hour hand, and if this model shows up at the Citizen boutique in Times Square, NY, I just may purchase one. (As long as the second hand lines up!)



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## tmathes

Out of curiosity, how good do the Chronomaster's hands line up with the sweep second hand? Supposedly GS hits them on the spot but I've read on the GS forum more than one customer griping it didn't do that at all. And Seiko wasn't exactly the easiest to deal with in terms of customer service either. They're taking a page from Swatch Group's playbook, and that is NOT a good thing, their service stinks. (Swatch Group meaning Swatch/Tissot/Certina/Mido/Longines/Omega brands).


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## GregNYC

The New York City boutique plans to stock it - they stock other JDM and HAQ models. They had an AQ 4020-54Y in already, they told me. 

I was there today. Ask for Steven Brudnicki, Assistant Manager. 212-658-1518. I told him I’d be letting the forum know....


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## James A

tmathes said:


> Out of curiosity, how good do the Chronomaster's hands line up with the sweep second hand? .


Looks like they do! Hard to find many videos but this one show it lining up. Long video so click forward to the 7.20 mark to see it best.






Regards,


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## tmathes

Out of curiosity, why are these kinds of watches from the Japanese 'Big Two" so often for their domestic market only? There may not be that big of a market outside of Japan for them but there has to be some market. Seems limiting these high end wares to Japan-only, which isn't as big of a market compared to the US or the EU, is leaving a lot of money on the table. The Swiss do the same thing with some entire brands (Certina and Mido come to mind from the Swatch Group).

I never understood the reasoning, it's not like they have to go through huge certification procedures like car manufacturers do. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?


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## Rocket1991

Because they share certain esthetics, quartz and perception luggage. Because AD in our countries don't bother to push. There are a lot of this garbage executive reasoning we don't get interesting models and often have to go "grey" route. For some reason you can't buy proper Seiko in local department store. Why? Don't ask me i can't explain it. Although there are bunch of fashion brands around taking far more retail space. 
One local jewelry store used to carry more upscale models of Seiko and Citizen. Not any more. Probably more margin in selling Tissot, Omega and whatever 1300$ Hamilton. One does not simply walk into the store and buy Citizen GPS watch!


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## GlennO

I think that they still have concerns about the perceived value of their brands in international markets where they have traditionally sold their most inexpensive models. This seemed quite evident to me about 10 years ago when Seiko happened to reduce the price (and quality) of their latest GS quartz models just before introducing Grand Seiko into some international markets. There’s a limit to what they feel the international market will accept when it comes to expensive Japanese watches, particularly expensive quartz.


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## SLWoodster

I thought there was some major Swiss Brand doing GS quality work at GS prices... Grand Seiko name is still stronger than citizen. Finishing looks nice though.


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## Domo

They've just released two new models, with the same eco-drive movement and lume.

?????? AQ4030-51A ?CITIZEN-????????

















Getting up there in price though... JPY 370K


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## Domo

They've just released two new models, with the same eco-drive movement and lume.

?????? AQ4030-51A ?CITIZEN-????????

View attachment 13188559


View attachment 13188561


Getting up there in price though... JPY 370K


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## LSWorks

I like the black one, which also looks to have the paper-like dial texture.

Uhm, need to see them before buying though!


Domo said:


> They've just released two new models, with the same eco-drive movement and lume.
> 
> ?????? AQ4030-51A ?CITIZEN-????????
> 
> View attachment 13188559
> 
> 
> View attachment 13188561
> 
> 
> Getting up there in price though... JPY 370K


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## GregNYC

I need to see them too. To see how the second hand lines up!


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## jandrese

GregNYC said:


> I need to see them too. To see how the second hand lines up!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I bought the white one yesterday. The seconds hand lines up perfectly. All the watches of the same type in the Citizen Flagship store in Ginza had seconds hands that lined up.


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## Jeff43

I'm interested in these Citizen watches but I struggle to find information on the different models. If I could research them easier, I'd be more likely to make a purchase.


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## Impulse

GregNYC said:


> I need to see them too. To see how the second hand lines up!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Given that the Chronomaster line is one of Citizen's flagship lines (aka competing with Grand Seikos), I'm pretty sure that the second hand "lines up" with the indices perfectly/near perfectly.

It is of course, theoretically possible that there could be some misaligned ones, but I highly doubt it, given the level of detail and hand finishing that has gone into these models.


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## SJACKAL

tmathes said:


> Hate to be the party pooper here but design wise it's just boring looking. Yes, the dial has a lovely pattern but a white dial with silver hands, no matter how well finished, are just dull and boring.
> 
> The other thing that hampers the watch is the JDM thing, at least with GS you can get them in other markets. Having to contort yourself to find a Japanese dealer that will sell outside of Japan is a pain (and I hate ordering from abroad, what you pay in customs is a complete guessing game). Only WIS's will do that, for other watch buyers they won't even know the Chronomaster exists, unlike a Grand Seiko.
> 
> While it's nice watch it ain't going to knock GS off the perch, there's a lot more than just an ultra accurate movements to making a great watch. Design is just as big a factor, GS has their share of boring designs but they also have quite a few stunning designs too. My Omega Speedmaster can't remotely compete with the accuracy of this Chronomaster but design wise the Speedy has it all over any Citizen, as does my Aqua Terra Skyfall. There's more to "perfect" than just a super-accurate movement and some exceptional case/dial finishing.


Much of what you said is true, but that's how the Japanese operate. As a fountain pen enthu, I can tell you its the same with their fountain pens as well; ie a $1000 black pen, but bet they try to make that $1000 black pen as good as they can be. A $1000 fountain pen from the western world would probably be highly decorated, but it is not so in the Japanese world as subtle, understated elegance is valued over flamboyancy and flair. Same with the watches. Even the same with their corporate world, walk into a cafe at lunch hour on the business streets of Tokyo and you will see a sea people in of black suits smoking away the same white cigarettes, with the same style of black pens in the pockets wearing the same style of steel watches.


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## 001

mj043 said:


> Looked up prices and these are still $2,500+ The watch looks great but I'd rather get a used GS at that price


Unless the reason is that GS are an Automatic, and this Quartz, then I understand.
But this is a superior Quartz watch as compared to the GS Quartz.



GlennO said:


> It's just the typical Japanese watch aesthetic, been the same since the 60's. I find it aesthetically pleasing. I sold my Grand Seiko quartz. Currently have 2 Chronomasters/The Citizen. If Seiko updates the 9F movement I might consider GS again. Currently The Citizen HAQ's are functionally superior.


I agree.
Typical Japanese non-offensive conservative traditional design.



sblantipodi said:


> The finishing is no where near to a Grand Seiko


How on earth did you come tot hat conclusion?



King8888 said:


> It is not really a GS killer if they are the 2k5 above except for being solar powered (I love that). If it happens to fall around 1k5 to 2k, I would buy it right away.


I know I may be nitpicking, but thats a VERY weird way to write 2500. Most people use 2.5K instead of 2k5(which, I would, and mathematically would) be read as 2005.



tmathes said:


> Out of curiosity, why are these kinds of watches from the Japanese 'Big Two" so often for their domestic market only? There may not be that big of a market outside of Japan for them but there has to be some market. Seems limiting these high end wares to Japan-only, which isn't as big of a market compared to the US or the EU, is leaving a lot of money on the table. The Swiss do the same thing with some entire brands (Certina and Mido come to mind from the Swatch Group).
> 
> I never understood the reasoning, it's not like they have to go through huge certification procedures like car manufacturers do. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?


I think thats because the Japanese have a stronger sense of loyalty towards their own country's products. Given a choice, a Japanese would prefer buying these over a similar priced Swiss watch.
In the West (North America and EU), the Swiss brands have a stronger image. Maybe thats why the Japs dont bother competing. As of yet. When they build a stronger image, maybe they will. Remember how Honda entered USA, they were mocked, and look where they are now.



Jeff43 said:


> I'm interested in these Citizen watches but I struggle to find information on the different models. If I could research them easier, I'd be more likely to make a purchase.


Same. Its particularly hard with Citizen though.


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