# Lange Movement Decoration Question



## benlee (Oct 8, 2012)

I am eying a Lange watch as a potential next purchase, in particularly the soon to be available Grand Lange1 Moonphase. 

One of the strong selling points of a Lange watch is that the movement are meticulously and beautifully decorated. To the extend that most WIS grade them on par or even exceeding that of Patek. However, I heard a rumor about Lange movement and wonder if there is any truth in it. It was alleged that Lange doesn't decorate the parts of movements that is hidden, only those that are visible in the display caseback. That is also the reason for the prevalence of the 3/4 plate that covers most of the non-automatic watch. While I can understand it is rather pointless to decorate the movement that is not visible, any potential buyer will still prefer to know that their high end watch movement is fully finished and decorated, including the hidden parts ( apparently, other watch houses does finish the hidden parts of the movement as well, including, PP, AP, VC etc ). 

Apparently, I heard about this when one my friend heard it from another friend of his that has attended a Lange watch-making session. The movement was opened up and he saw the underlying movement were all not decorated. No pictures of course. And I kind of doubt the story as well. :think: Anyway have any insights on this?


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Pointless.


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

Can't say I know one way or the other for sure, wouldn't bother me since I can't see whatever is or is not there. And if the price(s) escalate by more than $500 per if/when said unseen decorations do occur, no thanks . . .


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## sierra2kilo (Dec 1, 2008)

That's a persistent misconception that owes much of its origin to an often-controversial forum figure who departed the scene long ago, and it should be noted that he faced considerable disagreement from others at the time. The subject of movement finishing is one area in which it's particularly easy to find evidence to justify whatever conclusion one wants to justify (within reason, of course). It's not difficult, for example, to find examples of truly high-end watches with finishing that falls well short of much less expensive alternatives, to say nothing of the role photography plays in the process.

The unfortunate thing is that this rumor also owes much of its longevity to some who haven't had the opportunity to validate or refute it personally, yet perpetuate it without reservation, in addition to some common misconceptions that are easy to hold if one is unfamiliar with the finishing practices and techniques of other similar manufacturers, so your post is both refreshing and appreciated.

To your question, I've seen a few disassembled Lange movements firsthand, and they're finished throughout. Of course, the most extensive ornamentation is done where one can see it, as it wouldn't make any sense to engrave the underside of the balance cock any more than it would make sense to engrave ornamentation into the backside of a fireplace mantel. But they aren't unfinished, and even under close inspection, it doesn't come across as at all disingenuous, something I've been disappointed to see in some instances from prestigious manufacturers

Another misconception is that Lange is, in this regard, somehow beneath their peers, and that Patek, VC, and others all apply the same finishing techniques and ornamentation that they do on the visible portions of their movements to non-visible portions, with Lange the exception. They don't, and nearly any image of their dial-side finishing will illustrate that.

On the contrary, in some regards Lange's non-visible workmanship is superior to that of their rivals. (Though one could see how a less dramatic and adept approach to the finishing of visible surfaces might make the rest of the movement compare more favorably.)

The 3/4 plate is a traditional practice by Glashütte-based watchmakers-one can often tell the geographic origin of an old, unsigned pocket watch, simply by virtue of its design language and finishing techniques-a design which arguably has tangible, technical benefits, though its current use is probably as much a nod to Lange's historical roots as anything else. Even the Datograph still has a traditional 3/4 plate underneath the numerous chutes and ladders of the chronograph mechanism, and it would be difficult to claim that the Datograph achieves what it does by way of concealment.

Cutting corners like that just wouldn't be consistent with their approach, either. There are a number of areas in which they could save significant time (and cost) by taking shortcuts, but they don't. They do an excellent job of taking an artisanal approach to watchmaking, within the commercial realities and constraints naturally inherent in the serial production of watches, though it helps that their production volumes-especially relative to their size and staffing-are comparatively low relative to industry norms.

Off the top of my head, these links may be of interest:

AHCI Discussion Board: Dufour's Simplicity
The A. Lange & Söhne 1815
The Vacheron Constantin calibre 1400
The Patek Philippe Ref. 3919: A Star in Soft Focus


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## not12bhere (May 4, 2013)

I am an admirer of ALS. That said, this review of the 1815 movement did not thrill me. ALS, at their ever increasing pricepoint, should have decorative finishing on even unseen movement surfaces equal to their peers. If this seemingly unbiased review is accurate, ALS doesn't. On a high end watch, it is beautiful workmanship where the owner cannot even see it that proves the manufacter's dedication to perfection. ALS is still my favorite brand, and I hope the linked movement review is incorrect.

Sorry Sierra2K, i read the first post and remembered the linked review. After i posted, i saw that you had already provided a link to the article. Doesn't the 1815 movement finish in the article conflict with your statement about the finishing of other high end movments vs. ALS? If I recall correctly, the article noted that other manufacture movements had decoration on unseen parts that the 1815 lacked.

The A. Lange & S&#246hne 1815


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## sierra2kilo (Dec 1, 2008)

not12bhere said:


> ALS, at their ever increasing pricepoint, should have decorative finishing on even unseen movement surfaces equal to their peers.


They do, is my point, a view echoed by some in that linked debate, and justified (to me, at least) by my own experience.

When you have a moment, take a look at the other links listed. One could easily and authoritatively write a long article claiming that AP and Patek exhibit poor finishing in comparison to Lange, in Patek's case even on the visible side of the movement, but it's good to take all this stuff with a grain of salt and, as Mr. Dufour says, "take ten movements out of the current range of any contemporary brand, put them next to a Lange movement and comment honestly on what you see. That is the best way to judge-by examining the truth." (Besides his own Simplicity prototype, the only watch he wears is a Datograph, no small endorsement.)

But my point here isn't to knock anyone else's movements: all the top houses make excellent watches, they're all quite different in their design and approach, and, as always, people should buy what they like.

Other than a small handful of folks who seem intent on stirring controversy-and who, in their own analysis of things, let favored manufacturers off the hook for things over which they would positively skewer manufacturers they seem intent to disparage-many of the world's top watchmakers (Mr. Dufour included) hold Lange in very high esteem, something that, if I hadn't had the opportunity to investigate the subject myself, I would prioritize over a story about a Lange watchmaking session attended by somebody's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate (something the OP is right to be skeptical of), or the opinions of one or two forum commenters.

And that includes my own comments: everyone should make up their own mind on the subject from as much first-hand information as they can gather.


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## Le_Chef (Jan 6, 2014)

To clarify one thing. The reason Lange use 3/4 plates is tradition that goes back 200 years in Saxony. As to another the finishing on Lange's I have found to be impeccable. I've looked very carefully over mine and can find no flaw whatsoever.


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## benlee (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks guys for your insightful inputs especially the excellent replies from *sierra2kilo.* :-! I think we can safely conclude that the hidden parts are not decorated and furnished to the same extend as the visible parts, but then it is not just Lange that does this but is more or less a standard industry practice. To finish and decorate everything to 100% including the hidden parts will probably add significantly to the cost, making them un-viable commercially to the mid to entry level.

Please feel free to discuss further if anyone has further inputs. It's an interesting topic.


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## PremierCurrency (Dec 5, 2013)

The rumor you heard was absolutely 100% untrue. You should also seek the person out that told you that, and tell the to stop spreading lies...

Go on youtube, go on Lange's website. You can easily see that the entire movement is meticulously finished.


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## PremierCurrency (Dec 5, 2013)

> Another misconception is that Lange is, in this regard, somehow beneath their peers, and that Patek, VC, and others all apply the same finishing techniques and ornamentation that they do on the visible portions of their movements to non-visible portions, with Lange the exception.


I've got all thee. I can tell you that they are all feature absolutely exemplary finishing. I could not put one over the other.

The Lange:

 



















The Patek:





















The Vacheron:



















I realize that the above pics are from the "visible" portion, but I don't have any of the "hidden" parts that I have taken myself.


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## not12bhere (May 4, 2013)

Great posts all,

The part of the article (The A. Lange & Söhne 1815: Homage to Tradition by by ei8htohms)
linked above which drew my attention (mostly because the author had actually disassembled the movement and provided photographs to back up his/her statements which is rare on the great internet) and resulted in my statement about finishing at this price range are:

"Upon taking the movement out of the case and removing the hands and dial, the hidden bottom plate can be examined. The unplated German silver is fully perlaged with the exception of the milled out portion for the keyless levers and dial train, which is matte finished. A stark contrast to the elaborate, screwed in, gold chatons of the top plate, the jewels on the bottom plate are pressed into unchamfered holes [4]. Polished countersinks are not a functional necessity any more than gold chatons, but similarly, they are a demonstration of fineness and craft that would seem appropriate here."

. . .

"The undersides of the keyless levers do not show a decisive finish of any kind [7]. Somewhere between matte and polished, they also show some rounding at the edges, functional or otherwise. A flat, mirror polished surface would seem more appropriate here"

. . .

"While the keyless levers are not stamped and use no wire springs (as found in standard grade watches), they lack some of the fine touches one might expect of a watch in this price range."

As someone who has a lot to learn about high end/haute horology (and may even be misspelling it ;-)) , I inferred, maybe incorrectly, those statements by the author of the article indicated other manufactures would have finished the movement components to a higher level of detail.

Again, I am a new to this world, and if the author of the article I quoted was a prior problem child on this forum, or has been discredited, I apologize for bringing the article/quotes up. Thanks to everyone for the educational posts.


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## Le_Chef (Jan 6, 2014)

That's a very old article from TZ archives. I would ask a watchmaker from Wempe, who sees both Lange, Patek, and VC about today's level of finishing, not rely on a review from 13 years ago.


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## PremierCurrency (Dec 5, 2013)

It almost seems as though a few want to outright spread false innuendo about the finish of Lange's movements. Perhaps a few pictures of "hidden parts" would be in order to shut some folks up:




























The above pictures are all shots of "hidden" parts of the Lange. At this point, please feel free to start naming, individually, the ones that are unfinished. Anybody? C'mon....anybody!!??


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## little big feather (Mar 6, 2013)

PremierCurrency said:


> It almost seems as though a few want to outright spread false innuendo about the finish of Lange's movements. Perhaps a few pictures of "hidden parts" would be in order to shut some folks up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Back of the Date Wheels....;-)


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## not12bhere (May 4, 2013)

PremierCurrency,

In at least two of your pictures the entire "movement" appears to be unfinished. That 13 year old article was right! ;-) Now how about discussing those A. Lange tourbillons and whether tourbillons are a failed/parasitic movement component that actually hurt accuracy. . . sorry, wrong thread. I kid PC, thanks for sharing the great photos. I don't think anyone was trying to spread a myth in this thread, just a newby asking a newby question. Thanks all.


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## gretch6364 (Mar 15, 2016)

One of the things that I love about the Lange movements is the color the "german silver" turns as it ages. It is stunning and everytime I see an older Lange, I have to gaze at it. I have read that using this material is a Glashutte tradition. However, Lange seems to really tout that they do this and I can't find details on GO if they use this material in their movements as well. It appears that they do not. Is it just Lange and does anyone know why? Is it just a cost that GO doesn't want to take on? Thanks


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