# Citizen Eco-drive secondary battery life



## xevious

I own several Citizen Eco-drive watches and all of the manuals state that the secondary battery will "last a lifetime". That suggests around 70 years.

However, information I've seen from anywhere else (like here) about secondary rechargeable batteries for watches suggests that the batteries usually last anywhere from approximately 10-25 years. So, is Citizen full of it, or do they have some special custom battery exclusive to Citizen Eco-drive watches that indeed lasts a lifetime?

It's also suggested that the cost of the secondary batteries is about $40. Add shipping (about $15 insured) and the labor charge ($100), and you're looking at rather ridiculous cost if your original purchase price was $200 or less.

So, naturally it's curious to think about what it takes to do the battery change yourself. Certainly this should be possible, if you have the right tools and know what you're doing... has any watch enthusiast here done this? If you could obtain the tools, know-how, and the right preparations for doing it for about the cost of the first battery replacement, then it would certainly be an economical thing to do if you've got more than one Eco-drive watch and you're mechanically inclined...


----------



## D N Ravenna

I have replaced the capacitor on several Seiko Kinetics and on my Eco-drive perpetual. It is a lot easier than cleaning and lubricating a mechanical watch. That said, it was not as easy as replacing a battery either. Cost was under $15 for the replacements.

Kind of sux, but they are meant to be used relentlessly. If you are like me and rotate watches, they will suffer.

Cheers!

Dan


----------



## xevious

Thanks for the replies. I didn't mean to suggest I'm seriously worried about the batteries. I'm curious about the validity of Citizen's claims and if they are the only ones capable of opening Eco-drive watches.

I have seen some people on watch forums post claims of their Eco-drives dying on them just after the warranty ended. And only a couple said they had put their watches through several long periods without light exposure (full sunlight was no longer restoring a full charge). In my case, the oldest Eco-drive I have is approaching 9 years and it seems to work just fine. So I'm confident my watches will last a long while.

I hear you about gaskets... although I wonder what's really involved with these single piece molded cases--it could be that whatever gasket is used is so well protected from the elements that it would last virtually as long as the battery.

Anyway, if it turns out that 20 years after ownership the battery does require replacement, I have no doubt Citizen will still be around to do it... I just hope they don't charge an absurd fee for the maintenance. :roll:


----------



## b3nry

I have had an eco-drive for 2 years - I think - and it has never run out. I wear it very few times a year and simply store it in my room with the case lid open. It has only run on the low charge indicator (hand jumps every 2 seconds) once. However, because I store it with the lid open, I noticed it and placed it under a lamp over night and then in the sun for a few hours the next day and it was back to normal. If you wear it once a week or even once a fortnight - making sure it gets some sun exposure - she'll be right.


----------



## xevious

Does gasket life vary based on the usage? I have a 14 year old Casio LCD stainless steel watch I've kept in very good condition and after I removed the case back, I can see the original gasket is still in excellent shape (I even examined it under a loupe for fraying--none). Of course, the manufacturer will have the usual disclaimer that whenever the battery is serviced, the gaskets should be replaced. But I wonder if many of these gaskets are engineered with a material that can last for at least two battery changes.

I have a 10 year old Citizen Eco-drive that just went diving with me a couple of months ago, down to 100 feet--no leaks whatsoever.


----------



## bmwpower

Well off of wikipedia, the batteries in eco-dive watches are a silicon ion watches, which i've never heard of before, so that gives it some credibility, standard rechargeable are lithium based and do begin to lose their charge with age.


----------



## Mark Lewus

These watches do not use batteries in the usual sense. They use an electronic device known as a capacitor, which stores energy as a battery does, but in a different way than a battery. Where batteries perform chemical reactions to generate electrons, capacitors actually store the electrons directly in internal plates. There are no chemical changes involved or at least, in normal operation there shouldn't be. This is why rechargeable batteries are good for maybe 100-500 charge cycles but capacitor cycle life is essentially unlimited. The type of caps used in watches are known as "super capacitors" due to their unusually high energy density (energy stored per unit volume) as compared to the typical capacitors used in electronic equipment. The only downside is that they are much more expensive than the typical throwaway battery used in other quartz watches. 

The "Silicon Ion" referred to above is a reference to the power source of the watch, basically a silicon solar cell similar to those used in battery-free calculators and large solar panels. It has nothing to do with the battery.

The use/non-use of the watch will likely have little to no effect on the life of the capacitor. Capacitor life is not associated with the number of charge / discharge cycles as it is with an electrochemical battery. Rather, it's life is for the most part limited by the loss of the liquid electrolyte contained inside the capacitor. This loss is determined by the quality of the seals which degrade over time and high temperature allowing the capacitor to literally dry out. This causes loss of capacity and eventual failure. 

Not using your watch for long periods should not affect the capacitor life very much, if at all. But it probably is not all that great for the mechanics of the watch to be left still for long periods of time. Kind of like what happens if you don't run your car for a year.

Anyway, if you are getting 10 years of life out of a $100 watch, I think you are doing pretty well.


----------



## Andrew McGregor

Actually, they do use batteries and at the really high capacity end of capacitors, which these are, there is very little difference between a battery and a super cap.

It is very much true that running them down and storing for a long period will do bad things to the physical state of the inside of the cell, because they're designed to be stable while holding a charge, not while fully discharged. So don't do that.

Eco-drives last just fine if you keep them charged. Leave one in the dark for a couple of years and you can expect to have to replace the cell. Kinetics are more annoying, because they have such a short power reserve... fortunately, you can find induction chargers for kinetics that will keep them running. But I just won't buy a Kinetic because of the relatively poor battery life... may as well be standard quartz at that point.


----------



## Citizen V

Don't Kinetics have the same power reserves as eco drives? 6 months?


----------



## xevious

Citizen V said:


> Don't Kinetics have the same power reserves as eco drives? 6 months?


Kinetics have improved a bit from their earlier incarnations. But their power reserves are capped around 6 months maximum (most capable models). Eco-drives have far greater power reserves. Earlier models couldn't go for more than 3 months before depletion, but there are some models capable of going for 5 years on a single charge. Yes, that's no typo--5 years! But that's on a very simplistic model with just a date function. Mainstream Eco-drive models with a decent array of functions (atomic sync, chronograph, alarm, date indicator) often have a 9 month power reserve.


----------



## robi516

In 1996 I paid $450 for my first Citizen solar powered watch in 1996. It was a titanium "Solar Tech" dive watch. The following year Citizen changed the name of their solar technologyh to "Eco-Drive" which has served them well. I wore that watch non-stop for 16 years, putting it through much abuse, until I sold it on eBay for $70 a few months ago. It was still keeping perfect time. It's an understatement to say that I got my money's worth out of that watch.

When they say the battery will last a lifetime, I think they mean that the battery will outlast the rest of the watch - so its the lifetime of the watch they are referring to, not a human lifetime. My titanium watch was tougher than nails, and since I have sold it I will not be able to determine if the battery will outlast some other component of the watch. However, 16 years of continuous hard use with zero maintenance is equivalent to a watch's lifetime in my opinion. Citizen's claim of battery longevity is completely valid in my case.

Based on my experience, I am a huge proponent of the Citizen solar technology. I tried a Seiko Kinetic and found it to be far inferior to solar charging quartz watches, which Citizen perfected. Kinetic is heavier, noisier, with moving parts subject to failure. It is a dead end technology with the advent of solar power. I personally think the Kinetic technology embodies the worst of automatic and quartz watches. Seiko now makes solar charging watches which are also excellent, but they are copying technology that Citizen first patented and perfected. The only quartz watches I will own now are solar powered. Why mess with batteries when you don't need to. Long live Citizen Eco-Drive!


----------



## Mjduct

robi516 said:


> In 1996 I paid $450 for my first Citizen solar powered watch in 1996. It was a titanium "Solar Tech" dive watch. The following year Citizen changed the name of their solar technologyh to "Eco-Drive" which has served them well. I wore that watch non-stop for 16 years, putting it through much abuse, until I sold it on eBay for $70 a few months ago. It was still keeping perfect time. It's an understatement to say that I got my money's worth out of that watch.
> 
> When they say the battery will last a lifetime, I think they mean that the battery will outlast the rest of the watch - so its the lifetime of the watch they are referring to, not a human lifetime. My titanium watch was tougher than nails, and since I have sold it I will not be able to determine if the battery will outlast some other component of the watch. However, 16 years of continuous hard use with zero maintenance is equivalent to a watch's lifetime in my opinion. Citizen's claim of battery longevity is completely valid in my case.
> 
> Based on my experience, I am a huge proponent of the Citizen solar technology. I tried a Seiko Kinetic and found it to be far inferior to solar charging quartz watches, which Citizen perfected. Kinetic is heavier, noisier, with moving parts subject to failure. It is a dead end technology with the advent of solar power. I personally think the Kinetic technology embodies the worst of automatic and quartz watches. Seiko now makes solar charging watches which are also excellent, but they are copying technology that Citizen first patented and perfected. The only quartz watches I will own now are solar powered. Why mess with batteries when you don't need to. Long live Citizen Eco-Drive!


+4 to everything above, when my last battery quartz dies I will never buy another non-solar watch, and probably never a non-citizen.


----------



## Robbi Laurenson

I have a Solar-Tech bought circa 1993, so about 20 years ago now. Still going strong with no evidence of degradation.


----------



## tmathes

Robbi Laurenson said:


> I have a Solar-Tech bought circa 1993, so about 20 years ago now. Still going strong with no evidence of degradation.


There may also be a reason why most people don't notice the cell degradation over time: oversized cell used.

Think about the power reserve Citizen uses in their watches, it will be anywhere from 6 months to years. Most owners will wear the watches daily if not several times a week. So, the cells never really need all of that reserve. You may use up, say, 2-3 weeks of reserve at most.

Now if the cell degrades 90% from it's original capacity in, say, 15-20 yrs., 90% of 6 months is still 18 days of reserve, more than enough for how most people wear their watches. Plus, Li-based cells don't degrade as quickly if kept topped up (which isn't hard to do with a solar-based charger system in a watch worn a lot) as compared to how a cell phone is used, normally to depletion or close to it.

Couple the two together and that is how Citizen can justify their claims.


----------



## RejZoR

I think what Citizen is claiming is that capacity will drop from 100% down to 90% after that time. So, a 10% degrade. Not a 90%. And even if you look at it very pessimistic and take a 50% degrade, that still means it will have a 3 months reserve. Personally i'd still be perfectly fine with it if it would store enough energy for 1 month...


----------



## tmathes

RejZoR said:


> I think what Citizen is claiming is that capacity will drop from 100% down to 90% after that time. So, a 10% degrade. Not a 90%. And even if you look at it very pessimistic and take a 50% degrade, that still means it will have a 3 months reserve. Personally i'd still be perfectly fine with it if it would store enough energy for 1 month...


I was posing a hypothetical battery degradation, that's all. Even with that in mind it makes sense why few owners really notice the degraded cell capacity.

My experience with mainly with Li-ion cells in computer gear (I design power management chips). In 5-6 yrs. they will degrade to 20% of original capacity but that's partly due to how a portable computer device is used; full charge to discharge at 10-20% of capacity.

If you keep the discharge curve in a narrow range (not less than 40-50% of capacity), life is much, much longer. An example is the EV/hybrid car designs. The chargers in those products keep the battery at typically no more than 80% of capacity at 'full charge', show 'charge me, I'm almost dead" at 30% of capacity. That narrow range dramatically lengthens battery life.

Also, the particular lithium chemistries in computer/mobile gear is optimized for high energy/power density but that comes at the expense of longevity. In that market, makers don't care since most customers don't keep the gear around for decades. The cells in the Citizen watches I believe are Li-Fe based chemistries, lower energy/power density cells than what is used in computer/mobile products but is much, much longer lived if treated properly.


----------



## Pawl_Buster

tmathes said:


> I was posing a hypothetical battery degradation, that's all. Even with that in mind it makes sense why few owners really notice the degraded cell capacity.
> 
> My experience with mainly with Li-ion cells in computer gear (I design power management chips). In 5-6 yrs. they will degrade to 20% of original capacity but that's partly due to how a portable computer device is used; full charge to discharge at 10-20% of capacity.
> 
> If you keep the discharge curve in a narrow range (not less than 40-50% of capacity), life is much, much longer. An example is the EV/hybrid car designs. The chargers in those products keep the battery at typically no more than 80% of capacity at 'full charge', show 'charge me, I'm almost dead" at 30% of capacity. That narrow range dramatically lengthens battery life.
> 
> Also, the particular lithium chemistries in computer/mobile gear is optimized for high energy/power density but that comes at the expense of longevity. In that market, makers don't care since most customers don't keep the gear around for decades. The cells in the Citizen watches I believe are Li-Fe based chemistries, lower energy/power density cells than what is used in computer/mobile products but is much, much longer lived if treated properly.


I have read a lot about the Li Ion technologies and most manufacturers claim a 5% to 15% self degradation in the cells per year whether they are in use or not. If you take the best case of 5% per year; it doesn't take long to reach 50 % capacity remaining. But even if the cell gets down to 10% or 20% reserve capacity it can still power the watch. This is not the real issue since there is enough anecdotal info around to show that many of these watches are still happily working after 10, 15 and some even 20 years.
With the rare occasion of a faulty module or a faulty cell; the biggest single factor that determines the life of the cell is usage. As you mentioned there is an optimum charge level these cells should be kept at. For the low power button cells used in watches, the upper level is probably not as important as the lower level.
Too many people; at least the ones who do experience problems; don't allow the watches to receive enough light. They leave them in dark drawers; watch boxes or they are constantly worn under sleeves. Any of these conditions can lead to the discharge level dropping below the drop out voltage level of the battery. When this happens; rapid break down of the structure of the cell begins. Each one of these discharges damages the battery and drastically reduces the reserve capability.

Fortunately; some of the solar and kinetic watches have had charge levels built into their firmware. A good example would be the Seiko Kinetic Direct Drive which uses the same battery as it's cousins. The general kinetic population gets a 6 month reserve from these batteries while the Direct Drive has been artificially restricted to a one month charge. I don't have the specific details but it would make sense if the watches were programmed to keep the battery with in some range similar to the one you have described but suited to the lower energy cells. Once the watch has reached the lower limit(which hopefully is a good margin above drop out voltage) the module would be put into the lowest drain mode possible to prevent the battery from reaching that critical level for a long, long time.

In the end; it is owner usage that dictates whether these rechargeables attain their theoretical life expectance limits


----------



## petew

I've always thought that the decreased power reserve of the direct drive Seikos was due at least in part to the fact that the battery has to power the reserve meter which is not only always drawing power, but also can be fairly active while the watch is on the wrist. I've never seen any literature from Seiko stating that they've implemented any cell saving programming in the DD Kinetic Seikos, have you come across anything that states this Pawl Buster?


----------



## Pawl_Buster

petew said:


> I've always thought that the decreased power reserve of the direct drive Seikos was due at least in part to the fact that the battery has to power the reserve meter which is not only always drawing power, but also can be fairly active while the watch is on the wrist. I've never seen any literature from Seiko stating that they've implemented any cell saving programming in the DD Kinetic Seikos, have you come across anything that states this Pawl Buster?


No; I haven't seen any actual documentation. It was just something I saw in a thread on SCWF around the time the DD first came out. Perhaps it was just speculation on the part of the folks posting there.

If I am inadvertently spreading a myth; this would be somewhat embarrassing


----------



## tmathes

Pawl_Buster said:


> No; I haven't seen any actual documentation. It was just something I saw in a thread on SCWF around the time the DD first came out. Perhaps it was just speculation on the part of the folks posting there.
> 
> If I am inadvertently spreading a myth; this would be somewhat embarrassing


I think the Seiko DD models have a smaller cell than the regular kinetics. Likely the lower capacity is due to the space needed for the manual charging capability and from what I've read it takes quite a bit of manual winding to show appreciable charge in the cell. Seiko likely didn't want to have users wind the watch for long periods of time with little to show for it. Again, conjecture on my part. I cannot believe they'd put a 6 mo. cell and only allow 16% charge capacity, the sweet spot of lithium chemistries is 30%-80%. And I doubt the Kinetic DD watches use 6x the energy of the other Kinetics.

I'll hopefully find out how well the cells hold up in the future. My wife wanted to get me a Seiko SRX003 (Kinetic DD moon phase watch) for my birthday recently but it's on back-order in the US. No AD has them domestically but Seiko USA tells me they're still in production with a ship date of May 15 to dealers. Can't wait to get it.


----------



## Pawl_Buster

petew said:


> I've always thought that the decreased power reserve of the direct drive Seikos was due at least in part to the fact that the battery has to power the reserve meter which is not only always drawing power, but also can be fairly active while the watch is on the wrist. I've never seen any literature from Seiko stating that they've implemented any cell saving programming in the DD Kinetic Seikos, have you come across anything that states this Pawl Buster?


I e-mailed yserv asking about the one month reserve and the 'cell saving' program I had read about. They simply forwarded my questions to the Canadian Seiko distributor.

This is the complete correspondence...

Dear Mr Horne, Your email has been forwarded to Odyssey Time. We are the Authorized Service and Distribution centre for Seiko watches in Canada. We are happy to assist you with your inquiry regarding your Seiko watch. Please see below reply, as well we have attached an instruction manual to assist you. 1. Is the one month battery reserve due to the Power Reserve display? 1: Yes, it is as long as it's worn and kept at that "M+1" scale you will have the power reserve to last 30 days. 2. Does the module stop the movement before dangerously low power levels are reached? 2: The only time it will stop completely is if the small indicator hand reaches the "0" marker. Anything above zero should work just fine considered they know how many hours each scale signifies. We hope this is of some assistance and if you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Thank you kindly, Laura Postiglione Customer Service Manager Odyssey Time PH -647-288-2222 Ext 243

I'm not sure the answers actually cleared anything up as they could be taken either way. More than likely my questions weren't understood :-(


----------



## petew

Thanks for trying Pawl_Buster. The answer was pretty typical of what most of us get these days when asking semi detailed questions of manufacturers. Unless someone really digs inside one of these movements, we'll probably never know.


----------



## Pawl_Buster

petew said:


> Thanks for trying Pawl_Buster. The answer was pretty typical of what most of us get these days when asking semi detailed questions of manufacturers. Unless someone really digs inside one of these movements, we'll probably never know.


Yeh; I asked again with a little more detail but was simply referred to p19 of the owner's manual :roll:

You are probably right about the real reason for the one month reserve as I read somewhere else that the kinetic chronos that normally have a 6 month reserve; will only last a month if the chrono is left running. I don't remember which model it was but considering a similar amount of power would be needed to run an active PR meter as a continuous chrono hand; it seems like a reasonable assumption.

It's too bad that Seiko and Citizen haven't spent the little extra effort to have the watches recognize a certain discharge level; start the two second hop then shut the movement down. I know some watches go into a semi sleep mode but that is not quite the same thing. I guess they just don't care or perhaps they see a dead battery as more often resulting in a new watch sale :-(


----------



## Coolsiggy

xevious said:


> I own several Citizen Eco-drive watches and all of the manuals state that the secondary battery will "last a lifetime". That suggests around 70 years.
> 
> However, information I've seen from anywhere else (like here) about secondary rechargeable batteries for watches suggests that the batteries usually last anywhere from approximately 10-25 years. So, is Citizen full of it, or do they have some special custom battery exclusive to Citizen Eco-drive watches that indeed lasts a lifetime?
> 
> It's also suggested that the cost of the secondary batteries is about $40. Add shipping (about $15 insured) and the labor charge ($100), and you're looking at rather ridiculous cost if your original purchase price was $200 or less.
> 
> So, naturally it's curious to think about what it takes to do the battery change yourself. Certainly this should be possible, if you have the right tools and know what you're doing... has any watch enthusiast here done this? If you could obtain the tools, know-how, and the right preparations for doing it for about the cost of the first battery replacement, then it would certainly be an economical thing to do if you've got more than one Eco-drive watch and you're mechanically inclined...


I have only just replaced the lithium battery on my wife's CA234 watch after 15yrs use. Most watch repair shops here in Australia quoted $100 plus to replace the battery. I found the correct battery type from a UK supplier for 14 pounds. Removing the pressed case although difficult but finally gave, used a jewelers screwdriver. My first attemp failed because I did not correctly insert the batteries negative tab into the recessed contact port..., the battery has a tab which must be placed carefully (face down + up) into the dark plastic recess in the battery space. The battery is static charge sensitive so use insulated tools, do not touch with the fingers. I used magic tape and a tooth pick to retain the replacement battery while aligning the negative tab and snap into position. The o-ring seal can fail when you replace the back cover (pinched). I used a small plastic tipped hammer to tap cover in place and gave it a final touch using a padded watch vice and a drill press. This may not be the correct procedure, but info on the web was non-existent and the result was successful. I only tackled this because otherwise the watch was headed for the drawer.


----------



## asingh1977

xevious said:


> Kinetics have improved a bit from their earlier incarnations. But their power reserves are capped around 6 months maximum (most capable models). Eco-drives have far greater power reserves. Earlier models couldn't go for more than 3 months before depletion, but there are some models capable of going for 5 years on a single charge. Yes, that's no typo--5 years! But that's on a very simplistic model with just a date function. Mainstream Eco-drive models with a decent array of functions (atomic sync, chronograph, alarm, date indicator) often have a 9 month power reserve.


My Citizen Navihawk mentions..that it has 5 year power reserve, though in sleep mode. I think that is more than enough..! Though I 'sun' it out, once a month, when not on rotation.


----------



## Wordpainter

Reading the threads here I thought my experience would be illustrative: My Solar tech Titanium alarm Chronograph was bought in 1999. About a year ago it stopped holding a charge for more than a day. I put it in the drawer preparing to send it off to citizen for repair, but forgot about it in the crush of other things and having another watch to wear. It sat in the drawer in the dark for more than a year. Yesterday, I remembered I wanted to send it off and took it out. Holding under a light the second hand started the two second movement indicating insufficient charge, so I put it in the sunlight (cloudy) for a couple of hours. Today it is still running normally. We'll see how ling it rungs, but seems to be running That's 14 years. Arthur


----------



## Johann Yamamoto

I have a Citizen ecodrive and use as a dive watch weekly for 15 years. It was charged daily as we have plenty of sun. It was never full discharged, at most NG, 'no gauge' but ok as a watch. When new, it take less 1 hour to charge from LV1, "level voltage 1" to LV2 and 2-3 hours from NG to LV2. As I use as back up depth gauge, I was charging it always as manual warns it may die in dives if was not full.

As years age to charge it from LV1 to LV2 got longer and longer by 10 years, it would take 3 hours. Each dive ran 2-4 hours and we dove 2-3 times per day. However, on 15 year it would not reach LV2 even if I put it sun all day. I expect watch to die on dive, but up to 6 hours continuous diving on LV1 before NG. Then overnight on florescent lamp in kitchen and LV1 ready to go. So finally, last year, I grew skeptical of its actual power, I sent it in for service. The factory surprised watch was still working. They recommend new battery, movement, dial, hand, gut all except for case. Took watch to 130m many times, 10 years ago I forget to screw crown at 40m, watch became foggy but ok still.

The watch charges from LV1 to LV2 in less than 1 hour of sunlight and work like new.









The story is for archives of forum that the battery do wear out. It is not a capacitor, it is a lithium titanium battery that has a long life. The reason it wore faster is depth gauge uses more power. If same movement on a watch were depth gauge not connected, battery would power the watch for more years even without service. However, it will not "lifetime" but it last many years.


----------



## xevious

Thanks for your testimony Johann. Funny coincidence, I have that _exact_ same watch! I bought it for a dive trip, wore it the whole time for about 7 dives and it worked great. That was the last I ever took it for a dive. I still wear it on occasion, but I should probably let it go... it should be out there experiencing the depths by an avid scuba diver.


----------



## Johann Yamamoto

You're welcome everybody. I was looking at manual of the non-gauge EcoDrive watch, and it says reserve power 6 months. My watch reserve power only 2 months, this all with new battery. So, if ratio same for battery life, then battery for non-gauge watch may live 6/2 = 3 x more, or 30-45 years since my watch big weakness in power at 10-15 years and non-gauge watch use very little power. However, that is only on calculation, we need to see real life how long. But something to think of. Citizen invents Eco-Drive 1992 or 1996?? so we know oldest battery in normal watch start to be too old by 2022 or more.


----------



## xevious

I bought my first Eco-drive in 1998, and I know they were being made for a few years prior to that. Might have been mid 1990's.

I know there's a Citizen Eco-drive model with simple date function that is rated to go 5 years from a single charge. So that's some serious efficiency for you. My first Eco-drive is rated to 80 days, and I actually tested it on my 11th year of ownership, out of curiosity. It was still keeping time up to 79 days (I'd stuck it in a drawer), which is pretty good battery longevity. Still going strong today.

I had an issue with my Aqualand at one point, where after it became exhausted from disuse, I could not get it to keep proper time. It would periodically stop, and then start moving after adjusting the time with the crown. So I sent it back to Citizen (thankfully still within warranty) and they replaced the battery. Later on, I forgot about the watch and caused it to run down completely again. I thought maybe I'd ruined the battery again, but after a full day of sunshine it's charged up again and on LV2. So, who knows... maybe sometimes you get unlucky with a deficient battery?


----------



## xevious

I picked up another Citizen Eco-drive Titanium that was sold as "not working" and "would not charge". Turns out, all it needed was a good solid day of direct sunlight. :-! After 2 cloudy days of exposure and no life, I figured the battery was completely shot, but that 1 day of sunshine brought it back to life. Unfortunately, this is an older model that does not let you know what the charge level is, other than the warning when low (second hand moves once every 2 seconds), so I have no idea how robust the battery is, or how long it was in a discharge state. Going to give it a couple more solid days of sunshine before I put it on the wrist.


----------



## Kilovolt

I find it rather exciting to see 'dead' watches coming back to life.

A lot has been written about these rechargeable cells and their useful lifespan but sometimes they are tougher than expected.


----------



## xevious

Kilovolt said:


> I find it rather exciting to see 'dead' watches coming back to life. A lot has been written about these rechargeable cells and their useful lifespan but sometimes they are tougher than expected.


Yes indeed. I do wonder how badly the deep discharge affects the cells. Lithium Ion cells are supposed to be sensitive to deep discharge. I know with cells used in laptops and LED flashlights, they can and will go bad due to this. But their power requirements are _quite different_. The load a watch places on a cell is like an icicle on a tree branch. The main question is, how much of the maximum charge level gets lost from a deep discharge event. For example a watch that can go 80 days on a full charge; will it now be 75 days maximum after going through a deep discharge? I don't really have the patience to find out. ;-)

*EDIT*: Well, it was short lived. Apparently the bright sun was enough to get it running, but once out of direct sun for a couple of hours, it stopped. Oddly it wasn't in the double-step seconds mode. Just completely stopped and not keeping time any longer. So, I think the battery has had it. Not surprising since the watch purchase date on the warranty card is 1997, and it may have been in deep discharge for a long while. The good thing is that the movement works -- now I just need to replace that battery, in a monocoque casing that is tricky to deal with.


----------



## Kilovolt

In 2013 I bought a Seiko Kinetic chrono that had rested at the bottom of the seller's safe for 14 years. It reached a full charge easily enough but after two years of use I notice that its power reserve is down to maybe 50% of the original (15 days instead of 30) which I consider a good result.


----------



## Xcel

Hey! new member here, I wanted to share my experience with the eco-drive battery life.

I have a 15 year old Perpetual Chrono Ti, which I was using daily for around 10 years until the bracelet pin broke. I didn't get it fixed immediately and I ended up losing one end piece of the bracelet during a move. I finally decided to get it fixed last year, at the time the watch had been sitting in a drawer for 3 years. It took a few hours directly under a fluorecent light to get the watch running again but it still works!

In the beginning it was hard to get it hold a big enough charge for me to zero reset the watch and set the time before it ran out of a charge. The date setting seemed to use a lot of energy and when the watch hit a low power warning it would exit the zero reset procedure and go back to showing the actual date and time with the second hand pointing to 'charge'. After a few days of charging and then resetting the watch under direct sunlight, it works just fine. The original battery capacity was 80 days, I'm not sure what it is now, my guess would be 15 days, I will test it once I get my replacement watch. I just bought a new Chrono AT4004-52A.

I took the watch to a jeweler and he recommended changing the whole movement but I'm not ready to give up on it just yet. The accuracy is not as good as it used to be though, the watch runs fast at around +2s a day now. One thing which still works great is the lumes though, I can still see the time any time during the night. Maybe they're Tritium, haha  - or not.


----------



## Kilovolt

Welcome to the forum Xcel!

You have a nice watch there, leave it out in the sun for a few days when you can and then come back and tell us how it does.


----------



## Xcel

Thanks!

Will do, I'll report back when testing is finished.


----------



## BarracksSi

I'll keep an eye on this thread now. I've seen the low battery warning on my Citizen twice, both after going on six- or seven-week business trips and leaving the watch at home (usually in a drawer or a dim cubby). It recharges, but I wonder how many more deep cycles it will tolerate.

It's funny that I'm more confident of the long life and expected reliability of my new auto, although I'm still more confident of my solar watches than any of the battery-only watches I've owned.


----------



## xevious

These special lithium cells are a bit tricky to deal with. They "love" being at full charge and "hate" being depleted. Doesn't matter if it's a CASIO, CITIZEN, or SEIKO solar watch.

If a battery has experienced more than one deep discharge, it's probably compromised. The batteries are rather expensive compared to the $2 CR-2016 cells, but given how long they'll last if well cared for it's not so bad.

Citizen's Eco-drive movement is very robust. A new battery should be all that is required. Citizen, like many other watch makers, recommend you send your watch in for periodic servicing (like every 2-3 years). But for a quartz watch? They only want to charge you service costs. I'd rather save my money and take my chances. The only type where I'd send it in is with a diver, because they take special precautions and do pressure testing.


----------



## BarracksSi

The booklet that came with my Citizen recommended a service at 10 years, and also said that its main purpose would be to replace the seals. I can wait until at least 2020 before thinking about sending it in.


----------



## Xcel

Well it turns out the battery condition of my 15 year old eco drive is pretty bad. I made sure the watch was fully charged and put it in storage. The watch stopped without warning at midnight during date change. This is after only 5 days in complete darkness. I guess it would last longer in makeshift power save mode, aka CHR/CAL mode with the second hand stopped.

This is one of the models you have to open the watch from the dial side so I'm not sure if it's worth fixing it.

Lesson: Don't leave your eco drives in the drawer for 3 years


----------



## Auspaul

My eco drive must be 12 years old have had crown and seals and seal on Crystal changed sits on the window sill in the kitchen . Keeps really accurate time


----------



## GlennO

robi516 said:


> In 1996 I paid $450 for my first Citizen solar powered watch in 1996. It was a titanium "Solar Tech" dive watch. The following year Citizen changed the name of their solar technologyh to "Eco-Drive" which has served them well. I wore that watch non-stop for 16 years, putting it through much abuse, until I sold it on eBay for $70 a few months ago. It was still keeping perfect time. It's an understatement to say that I got my money's worth out of that watch.


Your friend served you faithfully for 16 years while you abused it and you reward it by selling it on ebay for pocket change? You heartless b*rstard! ;-)


----------



## jamal_GT

Earlier Citizen eho-drive got problem. the capacitor need to be replace sooner or later.
Buy the latest model, it is near perfected. Hint for newer model are sapphire crystal and
titanium case or bracelet. The oldest Citizen eho-drive still selling on the market. So be
careful in choosing . take my hint.


----------



## yama

It's 2018, how did your eco drive batteries help up until now?


----------



## James_

I would alsobe interested to hear how they have held up.


----------



## xlr8_mr.T

Hi guys, since many of us here are interested in eco-friendly powered watches, I would like to ask you guys a few questions about *SEIKO KINETIC* watches and *CITIZEN ECO-DRIVE DUO* watches.

1. I now own a *Seiko Kinetic Auto Relay* and I wear it very often especially when I move around so it can be charged at the same time. I have done many researches lately and found that Seiko Kinetic watches use *MAXELL TC920S* (Lion cell). Can we now purchase these cells on the market? I read somewhere that *after leaving the factory, these cells gradually degrade over time even though they're not in use*. Is this true? Is there another type of capacitor that can be used as an alternative replacement?

2. I plan to buy a *CITIZEN ECO-DRIVE DUO*. However, I'm not so sure about the secondary power cell's condition. In case the watch needs a battery replacement, can I find a new power cell on the market? if possible, I would love to know what is the battery model. And *can we use a modern Eco-drive cell instead of the original secondary power cell* in case they discontinued the original power cell?

Thank you for all your support, . Here are some pics of the *citizen eco-drive duo* that I plan to buy.


----------



## aafanatic

@xlr8_mr.T Looks like an awesome watch Is it running now? Is the second hand in different position in different photos? I don't know any part numbers for that, sorry


----------



## xlr8_mr.T

aafanatic said:


> @xlr8_mr.T Looks like an awesome watch Is it running now? Is the second hand in different position in different photos? I don't know any part numbers for that, sorry


I haven't yet bought it or contacted the seller at the request of the watch's condition. I think it's a watch that's worth collecting. However, I don't really know if I should buy it because I want to identify possible alternative secondary power cell replacements first. I don't wanna buy it and then toss it in a drawer for not functioning :<

As I said, if there's an internal part that converts the solar and mechanical energy into electricity before storing it in the secondary power cell, then perhaps I'll buy the watch and then replace the power cell once the power cell has completely deteriorated. But so far, I have neither information about the caliber mechanism nor information about the secondary power cell  though I did a lot of research.


----------



## xlr8_mr.T

I have just found these pieces of information and I wanna share them with everyone to discuss.
1. I have just found the caliber number on an Eco-drive Duo (not the one that I wanna buy but I assume these calibers can share the same power cell as they're both Eco-drive Duos)









2. I found this power cell model on Ebay which is compatible with *the above Eco-drive Duo caliber B510*. I don't know if this power cell model was discontinued. In that case, which alternatives do you guys recommend? I live in Vietnam and I have consulted many watch repairers but none of them really know about this caliber or this power cell. I don't have much knowledge on watches so I'm trying to get as much help as possible. 








THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP


----------

