# The Least Expensive High End Watch?



## flying.fish (Sep 9, 2014)

Hi everbody,
What would be your high end pick from an AD which also can be considered a "budget" watch?
Pictures please...
Cheers


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## hantms (May 28, 2014)

It completely depends on what you consider high-end. Many people would consider the popular models by Rolex and Omega not particularly high-end. (A nice casual 'everyday' watch at best.) Other people consider TAG and Breitling and Grand Seiko to be high-end. 

Which one is you?

Not to mention that it's just a strange way to approach a watch purchase. Is this about what gives you the biggest show-off potential for the lowest possible spend? In that case a price range would help.


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## DrKennethNoiseWater (Feb 20, 2015)

I do not own one, but I would be hard pressed to find a better watch than a Grand Seiko for that price range. A lot of people will turn their heads to Seiko, but the finishing and overall beauty of those watches are really something to admire. There is also a great variety to choose from. However, as the previous post stated, it really depends on what you would call high end.


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## DrKennethNoiseWater (Feb 20, 2015)

Borrowed from Aztime website. Around 4000$ and pretty damn, nice watch.


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## flying.fish (Sep 9, 2014)

I aggre, I didn't mention the purpose and the scope.
I personally have many affordable watches and I love them and wear them joyfully.
However, if one needs one really high end watch for some reason (you might want to call it show-off, thats ok), what would be the choice?
High end I mean: PP, ALS, AP, VC, Breguet etc.



hantms said:


> It completely depends on what you consider high-end. Many people would consider the popular models by Rolex and Omega not particularly high-end. (A nice casual 'everyday' watch at best.) Other people consider TAG and Breitling and Grand Seiko to be high-end.
> 
> Which one is you?
> 
> Not to mention that it's just a strange way to approach a watch purchase. Is this about what gives you the biggest show-off potential for the lowest possible spend? In that case a price range would help.


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## tempocalypse (Apr 1, 2014)

flying.fish said:


> I aggre, I didn't mention the purpose and the scope.
> I personally have many affordable watches and I love them and wear them joyfully.
> However, if one needs one really high end watch for some reason (you might want to call it show-off, thats ok), what would be the choice?
> High end I mean: PP, ALS, AP, VC, Breguet etc.


You can find second hand Breguet Type XX Chronographs that have a few years on them in the 4-5K USD range. Personally think the Type XX is a very nice watch and they have a fairly uncommon Lemania automatic movement in them with flyback functionality.

Also some pre-swatch era gold dress watches usually 30-35mm and with solid casebacks can be had for very little. Breguet back in those days however weren't particularly well regarded so i think you would mostly be paying for the name, but I dont have first hand knowledge of these watches. Regardless of what one may think of the Swatch Group, you do have to give credit to Mr Hayek for restoring Breguet to the top Pantheon worthy of being mentioned along with the others mentioned above. I would probably avoid these older watches.


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## Alex_TA (May 7, 2013)

You are too productive in threads opening.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Gallet Flight Officer Truman Edition (FOTE) - starting price ~$8500

Offered in stainless steel and precious metals 
Chronograph with column wheel, Gallet-specific vertical clutch made by Gallet, self-adjusting hammers, elapsed time from 1/5th of a second to 12 hours 
GMT/World time 
Telemetry indes 
Tachometry index 
COSC certified 
Automatic movement 
5 Year warranty 
Oldest watch company on the planet, dating from the late 1400s 
Ownership is still in Gallet family hands 
In-house movement and case 
Company normally produces only custom made pieces; the FOTE (unlike its full price variant the Flight Officer Anniversary Edition) is a special 1000 piece offering for the benefit of the National Watch and Clock Collectors Museum 
























​
Some links:


History: http://www.galletwatch.com/PDF/chronos_gallet_chronograph_watch_complete_A4_version.pdf 
History: The Original Gallet Flying Officer (As Worn By President Truman) Explained: More Important Than You Think â€" HODINKEE 
User input on older Flight Officer: Gallet Flying Officer 40 Year Review (long) - Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum 
The watch: Gallet Truman Edition Flight Officer 
Will any non-watch aficionado have the first clue about Gallet? No. There's also no shortage of folks who proclaim to know about watches who don't know who Gallet are.

All the best.


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## mpalmer (Dec 30, 2011)

I'd say the most affordable entry into a high end watch would be Glashutte Original or Parmigiani. That is not to say that the finishing is the lowest on the high end totem pole though as both seem like value for money...


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## Dancing Fire (Aug 16, 2011)

SS JLC


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## humanalien (Feb 17, 2015)

I'd say Rolex, Grand Seiko, Zenith, followed by JLC, Glashutte Original, Audemars Piguet, Bregeut, etc.

Based on a quick search I did; was really surprised to see AP and Bregeut in $5k~$8k section.


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## flying.fish (Sep 9, 2014)

humanalien said:


> I'd say Rolex, Grand Seiko, Zenith, followed by JLC, Glashutte Original, Audemars Piguet, Bregeut, etc.
> 
> Based on a quick search I did; was really surprised to see AP and Bregeut in $5k~$8k section.


Yes I think AP would be a good choise. But I am seeking more specifics...


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

humanalien said:


> I'd say Rolex, Grand Seiko, Zenith, followed by JLC, Glashutte Original, Audemars Piguet, Bregeut, etc.
> 
> Based on a quick search I did; was really surprised to see AP and Bregeut in $5k~$8k section.


The $5K - $8K section of what?

All the best.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

hantms said:


> *It completely depends on what you consider high-end*. Many people would consider the popular models by Rolex and Omega not particularly high-end. (A nice casual 'everyday' watch at best.) Other people consider TAG and Breitling and Grand Seiko to be high-end.
> 
> Which one is you?
> 
> ...


100% agree there.

OP, go out and try to find a precise and widely accepted definition of what "high end" means. Then figure out if it means the same thing to you. Once you've done that, tell us your definition of "high end" and we can identify watches that meet that definition.

One of the watches listed will have the lowest MSRP and that watch potentially will be your least expensive HEW. "Potentially" because if you can get a good enough discount on one having a higher MSRP than you can on the one having the lowest advertised MSRP, the lowest MSRP one may not prove to be the least expensive one to you.

All the best.


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## Emtee (Mar 23, 2013)

If you want a 'least expensive high end watch' then you should be looking at the grey/pre-owned market. I understand you specifically said AD but then we would have to take into consideration possible discounts which is difficult to do as there are many factors involved there. Assuming you are strictly sticking to msrp at an AD then some kind of GO I would guess.


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## plastique999 (May 17, 2014)

Best bang for buck = JLC


Sent from my 16M


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## Mirabello1 (Sep 1, 2011)

I would have to say GO Panolunar


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## BusyTimmy (Jul 24, 2009)

Dancing Fire said:


> SS JLC


GREAT value for money.


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## Saint-Vieux (Mar 2, 2015)

The classic ones would be less expensive on the high ends, like the Navitimer 806 or the Chronomat by Breitling. On the newer side, Ulysse Nardin Chronograph would be one of them.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

I am confused as to why the OP seems so preoccupied with the "high end" concept. This is the latest of these types of threads that he has started in this forum. Who cares if something is considered "high end" or not? Buy something that you like and enjoy it. A week ago you were saying you really liked the datejust, which is an awesome watch by any standard. Did you decide against it because it isnt techically high end enough? If so, I would really step back and reconsider how you are approaching this hobby.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

gagnello said:


> I am confused as to why the OP seems so preoccupied with the "high end" concept. This is the latest of these types of threads that he has started in this forum. *Who cares if something is considered "high end" or not? *Buy something that you like and enjoy it. A week ago you were saying you really liked the datejust, which is an awesome watch by any standard. Did you decide against it because it isnt techically high end enough? If so, *I would really step back and reconsider how you are approaching this hobby*.


Least Expensive:
I can relate to the idea of attempting to buy the least expensive watch from a given maker. In my own collecting, I try to buy watches that fit the following parameters:

Made by a producer whom I've deemed as "important" in the annals of watchmaking. (Whether anyone else thinks the maker is "important" is irrelevant to me. Why I deemed a maker "important" is my business.")
The watch should be among the least expensive models offered by the maker that reflects what it is I think is most appealing about what that maker offers.
The watch should, in most cases, be uncomplicated or at most have a date.
Watches that fit those parameters are what I call "collection" watches. All other watches I buy are "fun" watches. The watches don't have to be mechanical, but if that's all that's offered that I like, that's what I'll buy. I try to spend as little as possible, but I'm not opposed to spending a tidy sum if I must. That's it.

Red:
I can't identify them by name, but there are apparently folks who are more concerned with whether a watch is "high end" that whether it's simply an item they like and want for some reason(s) beyond high-end-ness. Why that's their concern is beyond me. That it's a concern at all is even more irrational than is the idea that there's actually something rational about wanting/buying a watch that qualifies by most folks' measure as "high end."

All of that is puerile folly IMO. If one wants a fancy watch, go look at a few and pick the one that appeals most. If one doesn't know what appeals most, odds are one is best off not buying any of them.

Blue:
I'm with you in believing that approach is ludicrous.

In my experience, there are two kinds of watch collectors: curatorial and consumerist. IMO, anyone else buying pricey watches are consumers, but not collectors. The thing with serious collectors of either stripe is that they know what they like/want and why; for them this is a hobby of great conceit. I have yet to find a serious collector, at any price level, who is going to be swayed by what someone else thinks or by whether a watch falls into any category that isn't defined by the person collecting the watches.

Collecting anything is like writing. Some people write children's books, others write comics, still others write spy novels, romances or non-fiction. The thing they all have in common is that each of them defines their own plot, their own story. Some people might say Lewis Carroll's _Alice in Wonderland _is a children's story, others might find it to be social commentary clothed in a fictional setting. Orwell's _Animal Farm_ can be thoroughly entertaining for young readers, but older readers see it as a political discussion.

What kind of book each is depends on reader and what they take from it, but what story the author wanted to tell and how s/he elects to tell it is entirely up to them. The author figures out what they want to say with their book/paper, not whether the book will be categorized, after they've written it, as a children's book or as social commentary, for example.

So it is with collecting. One must figure out what one wants to collect and why. Collectors don't say to themselves "I want to collect high end watches." They say, "I find X, Y, and Z interesting about watches and I want watches that exhibit those traits. I'll seek to discover what watches there are that have those characteristics and then I'll pick the one or several that most appeal to me."

What are some examples of "X, Y, and Z?" Well the possibilities are nearly limitless; it's whatever truly captures the collector's imagination and passion. Some examples, most of which allow for participation in the hobby by people of widely varied budgetary constraints:

Case shapes -- perhaps one is fascinated by square watches.
Dial imagery -- maybe one already collects, say, turtles, so one wants watches turtles on the dial.
Caseback imagery -- maybe the idea of the various sculpting images that can be found on casebacks is interesting.
Colors -- perhaps one likes the way orange dials look.
Engineering attributes -- is one fascinated with the various types of escapements that can be found in watches?
Fabrication methods -- maybe one is intrigued with hand crafting and how it's changed over the years.
Decorative effects -- could one just be thrilled by the various engravings and patterning that can be found on dials?
Historic significance -- perhaps one is taken by the Guilded Age and thus desires watches made in that period or that have styling consistent with the fashion of that era.
Horological significance -- perhaps one just likes the history of horological achievement and wants watches that represent milestones in that progression of thought and design. (This is an expensive interest, both in terms of time -- because one must buy vintage pieces and finding learning about them and finding them takes time -- and money.)
Watch styles -- perhaps one really is enthralled with dive watches, or pilot watches, or even pocket watches that have been converted for wrist wearing.
Those are just a few examples. As I wrote, the themes one can devise are limitless. The key is to know oneself first and then identify what captures one's interest. Also, whatever the theme(s) be, it needs to be focused enough to guide one's purchase decisions. For example, one can't expect to say "I want to collect stainless steel watches (for whatever reason)," and expect that's going to be the sole theme of one's collecting. It can be one theme, but it probably needs another theme to compliment it. At any rate, if nothing really comes to mind, one really should, for the sake of the bank account if nothing else, ask themselves, "Do I really want to collect watches or am I really just a consumer who wants to buy a nice watch or two and that'll do it for me?"

All the best.


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## mpalmer (Dec 30, 2011)

Saint-Vieux said:


> The classic ones would be less expensive on the high ends, like the Navitimer 806 or the Chronomat by Breitling. On the newer side, Ulysse Nardin Chronograph would be one of them.


Welcome to the forums!


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## flying.fish (Sep 9, 2014)

gagnello said:


> I am confused as to why the OP seems so preoccupied with the "high end" concept. This is the latest of these types of threads that he has started in this forum. Who cares if something is considered "high end" or not? Buy something that you like and enjoy it. A week ago you were saying you really liked the datejust, which is an awesome watch by any standard. Did you decide against it because it isnt techically high end enough? If so, I would really step back and reconsider how you are approaching this hobby.


Who makes you to judge? This is not a war arena, we are chatting and learning all together. If the thread bothers you, then just don't jump in and reply.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

flying.fish said:


> Who makes you to judge? This is not a war arena, we are chatting and learning all together. If the thread bothers you, then just don't jump in and reply.


Not a good reaction to what was not a personal attack. If you can't handle constructive criticism or sincere questioning, an Internet forum may not be for you. I was not judging, I was voicing my confusion about what seems to be a slightly obsessive approach to the high end concept.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

My vote is either the JLC Master Control Ultra Thin, or (on another level completely) the Zenith El Primero Tourbillon, at less than $50k list and $20k from grey market sellers it is probably the least expensive tourbillon (of pedigreed origin) on the market today.


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## flying.fish (Sep 9, 2014)

WTSP said:


> My vote is either the JLC Master Control Ultra Thin, or (on another level completely) the Zenith El Primero Tourbillon, at less than $50k list and $20k from grey market sellers it is probably the least expensive tourbillon (of pedigreed origin) on the market today.


JLC looks beautiful..


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## mzmtg (Oct 1, 2014)

Monochrome covered this topic well a few years ago:
The Cheapest High End watch - Monochrome Watches

Their criteria for "high end":


> Let us summarize what would qualify a watch as being High End.
> 
> 
> A mechanical
> ...




The result:


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

mzmtg said:


> Monochrome covered this topic well a few years ago:
> The Cheapest High End watch - Monochrome Watches
> 
> Their criteria for "high end":
> ...


This misguided article shows how a non-comprehensive checklist approach can produce aberrant results. Seiko 5 models are fine watches, they are the reference for quality at a reasonable price in the low end mechanical watch market. However, they are most definitely not high end.

The faulty conclusions formulated in that article should not be circulated any further.


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## mzmtg (Oct 1, 2014)

WTSP said:


> The faulty conclusions formulated in that article should not be circulated any further.


Were you born without a sense of humor, or did you have it surgically removed?


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

mzmtg said:


> Monochrome covered this topic well a few years ago:
> The Cheapest High End watch - Monochrome Watches
> 
> Their criteria for "high end":
> ...


Well, perhaps Martin Green was/is The Watch Snob for those are the exact same criteria stated in that comedian's column.

Red:
I challenge you to provide a comprehensive approach to defining what "high end" means. It's easy to emptily lambaste someone else's definition and provide nothing equally or more comprehensively explained. I suggest that unless you have something better to put forth as an alternative, along with showing what's misguided about the rationale behind Mr. Green's criteria, you may want to refrain from criticizing it.

All you've done so far is tell us you disagree with Mr. Green, assert his approach is uncomprehensive, and decry his conclusion. You've put nothing of your own devising before us so that we can analyze and potentially throw stones at your approach. That's more cheap than a Seiko 5.

All the best.

If we had no faults we should not take so much pleasure in noting those of others.
― François de La Rochefoucauld, _Maxims _


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

mzmtg said:


> Were you born without a sense of humor, or did you have it surgically removed?


Ah, so you were joking, thank goodness. In answer to your question, no, my personality has never undergone any sort of surgical procedure, at least not to my knowledge.



tony20009 said:


> All you've done so far is tell us you disagree with Mr. Green, assert his approach is uncomprehensive, and decry his conclusion. You've put nothing of your own devising before us so that we can analyze and potentially throw stones at your approach.


Tony, I believe you *have *read my sentiments on this subject before. In fact I went into some detail, something I believe you appreciated since you Liked my posts. I refer to them below:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/wha...-affordable-watch-1416106-4.html#post11691666
https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/wha...-affordable-watch-1416106-6.html#post11840818
https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/wha...-affordable-watch-1416106-8.html#post12613498


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## maikeru (Sep 5, 2014)

JLC master control date. No frills and clean design, versatile white dial, reasonable size at 39mm.


















(Pics from Google)


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

WTSP said:


> ...
> 
> Tony, I believe you *have *read my sentiments on this subject before. In fact I went into some detail, something I believe you appreciated since you Liked my posts. I refer to them below:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/wha...-affordable-watch-1416106-4.html#post11691666
> ...


I guess I did read those. (I'm not going to look at them just now, but I'll check later.) I'll be honest with you; I don't pay too much attention to who writes what I like or comment on. I guess that's good and bad:

Good: it means that whatever I have to say in response to a member's comments has nothing to do with anything other than my thoughts on the comment I'm reading at the moment. Expecting that others do the same is part of what makes so many of my posts so darn long; I don't usually assume that the reader is aware of other posts I've made. 
Bad: it means I respond to posts like the one you wrote in this thread without realizing that the poster may have elsewhere more comprehensively stated their views. 
Sorry for "laying into you." I didn't realize I was responding to a member with whom I've been party to other discussions on WUS. Save a very few folks, I don't even remember by name most of the members with whom I've had PM conversations. I do tend to recall the conversations themselves, just not in most cases with whom I've had them.

A word about my "likes"....I will as often as not "like" comments with which I disagree because I feel they reflect a level of thought that goes beyond a "sound bite." I like intellectual discussion for more than I like agreeing with someone else or being agreed with myself. Well thought out posts inspire me to think about my own views re: watches and being challenged in that way is good, at least it's good for me. Sometimes, however, I "like" posts with which I agree and/or that make me chuckle, laugh, or guffaw. When I have a moment to re-read your posts noted above, if you'd like, I'll share with you what I liked about them.

Apologies again for not remembering your earlier comments in the other thread. Also, TY for politely pointing out those posts to me.

All the best.

P.S./Edit:
I "liked" your post #31 above because in it you civilly showed me the error of my earlier post. Graciousness is another quality I applaud and will thus "like" when I see it.


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## dantan (Dec 16, 2014)

I would say that Zenith is a high-end brand which has a wide range of watches at very reasonable prices.


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## zlocko2002 (Aug 3, 2007)

JLC Master Control









or

JLC Reverso Grande Taille


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

tony20009 said:


> I guess I did read those. (I'm not going to look at them just now, but I'll check later.) I'll be honest with you; I don't pay too much attention to who writes what I like or comment on. I guess that's good and bad:
> 
> Good: it means that whatever I have to say in response to a member's comments has nothing to do with anything other than my thoughts on the comment I'm reading at the moment. Expecting that others do the same is part of what makes so many of my posts so darn long; I don't usually assume that the reader is aware of other posts I've made.
> Bad: it means I respond to posts like the one you wrote in this thread without realizing that the poster may have elsewhere more comprehensively stated their views.
> ...


Thanks Tony, no worries and no offense taken. With all that goes on in the forum, as well as your prolific and valuable contributions to a large number of discussions, it would be easy to lose track from time to time. Furthermore, my post which you originally responded to in this thread was perhaps too curt.

Returning to the OP's subject, other members' suggestions of a Grand Seiko could certainly fit the bill. IMHO, the differences between a Grand Seiko and a Seiko 5 go a long way in defining some of the deeper and less visually apparent distinctions between the high and low end of the mechanical watch market.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

Tony 
I learned a lot from reading their website.. Thanks for the information...



tony20009 said:


> Gallet Flight Officer Truman Edition (FOTE) - starting price ~$8500
> 
> Offered in stainless steel and precious metals
> Chronograph with column wheel, Gallet-specific vertical clutch made by Gallet, self-adjusting hammers, elapsed time from 1/5th of a second to 12 hours
> ...


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

mark1958 said:


> Tony
> I learned a lot from reading their website.. Thanks for the information...


You're welcome.

All the best.


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## Ajax_Drakos (Aug 20, 2014)

This is such an odd conversation to have. And I don't mean "odd" in a critical way but "odd" in that it's just very hard to figure out where the line is. 

The easiest way to do it, I suppose, is by price. We can simply draw a line at a $10k MSRP on a new watch and say that anything above that is high-end, but that of course is highly arbitrary. Plus, I've seen watches well-above that range -- by Hublot, Panerai and, sadly, even AP -- that were so underwhelming and/or disgusting that I wouldn't pay a third of what they were asking for them. 

Then I see that Gallet that Tony mentioned, and it absolutely looks like a high-end watch below $10k. I also look at my EP -- high-quality finishing, brand pedigree, undisputed and legendary movement pedigree, unique 36,000 BPH features, in-house -- but under $10k MSRP and not considered high-end. 

I'm really at a loss when it comes to this topic.


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## JD_S (Jun 23, 2012)

A steel JLC or GO.


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

Something relatively unknown, but has much of the hallmarks of haute horology; Pequignet Rue Royale with their Calibre Royal movement:

















This video is a bit gimmicky, but it touches upon some of the most important elements of the movement:


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## Ajax_Drakos (Aug 20, 2014)

Vig2000 said:


> Something relatively unknown, but has much of the hallmarks of haute horology; Pequignet Rue Royale with their Calibre Royal movement:
> 
> View attachment 3732762
> 
> ...


I would agree, but I'm biased because I own a Pequignet. Fantastic watch that impresses every watch fan who has looked it.


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## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

The subject is very debatable. There are many new kids on the block who started to make "high-end fashionable/expensive" watches in the last 20-30 yrs. Some of them became known, such as Hublot, Richard Mille etc.....

IMO, to be called a high end watch is not enough to have an excellent product (good finishing, accuracy, in-house movement etc). Technically many brands/watches qualify BUT I belive you also need to have some tradition behind, a testimony for what you are producing. Without that the watch is missing an important component of what it needs to be can be called a high-end watch. 
I'd refer to Zenith and JLC as entry level high-end.


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## vnstowa (May 15, 2010)

For me, the cheapest you can by is the JLC MUT, 34 mm steel version.

I had a few watches in this price range and it's the only one that was appreciated by watchmakers used to service really HE pieces. 

It's also the only one that I still have from that range, because it's perfect for what it is: understated dress watch with a great movement and pedigree, mechanism fits the case, nothing irks me about it.


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## WatchFrog (Mar 14, 2015)

Vig2000 said:


> Something relatively unknown, but has much of the hallmarks of haute horology; Pequignet Rue Royale with their Calibre Royal movement:
> 
> View attachment 3732762
> 
> ...


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## Matty01 (Sep 6, 2011)

What high end means in this context is very difficult to determine.
Whenever these kind of debates arise I reccomend consulting a dicrionary...

High end connote one of or a combination of 
expense
exclusivity
sophistication/quality
technological advancement/best fit for application

yet concensus suggests quartz cannot be high end, nor timepieces which refer to sattelite for accuracy.

Watches over 10k can fail Be aggreed upon by a majority as high end

Immelmann make some beautiful watches sometimes 1/1 and 1/2 and thereefore fit the definition of exclusivity but are unlikely to be considered by many here as high end

The sophistication, technological advancement and quality of finish of Grand Seikos suggest high end, but they have been discounted in this thread with no argument from any of the other posters. 

A quality quartz watch for a few hundred bucks will outporform most mechanical watches interms of accuracy but no one here is going to plump (i stand to be corrected of course) for a quartz watch as high end. 

Ultimately a personal definition of what high end is comes down to how you prioritise the different applicable paramaters listed above and therefore there are a veritable truckload of different amd indeed strongly contrasting amd yet equally valid and sustainable answers to the question of what 'high end is'


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

Vig2000 said:


> Something relatively unknown, but has much of the hallmarks of haute horology; Pequignet Rue Royale with their Calibre Royal movement:
> 
> This video is a bit gimmicky, but it touches upon some of the most important elements of the movement:


Holy. Crap. That is absolutely beautiful.


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## Ajax_Drakos (Aug 20, 2014)

gagnello said:


> Holy. Crap. That is absolutely beautiful.


Oh, it's a hell of a watch. The movement is divine, the case has the best polished finish I've personally seen at anywhere near that price range, and the dial work is excellent. I find it hard not to wear mine everyday. That decision has been made easier, though, by the fact that mine is being serviced right now. 

Because it's a sub-$10k watch, though -- and that seems to be the line in the high-end forum -- I've never posted it in the high-end forum. By the way, I think the only reason that the GS is not in the high-end forum is because of price. If you look at the dial and movement finishing on any GS, it's a high-end watch, but the price seems to keep it out of the high-end forum.


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## tigerpac (Feb 3, 2011)

Pequignet is intriguing. Looks good in the pictures. Can't believe they have zero distribution in NYC though. Would love to see one in the metal.


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## Vig2000 (Jul 5, 2012)

tigerpac said:


> Pequignet is intriguing. Looks good in the pictures. Can't believe they have zero distribution in NYC though. Would love to see one in the metal.


Their Calibre Royal movement is a thing to behold, and in my opinion, the movement is beautiful and high-end in every way. It scores bonus points for being a true French manufacture movement. I don't think that another French manufacture movement is in existence today. However, some of you who may have never heard of the brand may not like this: They manufacture all sorts of watches, including those with quartz and standard Seiko movements. They essentially have two lines-Moorea and Manufacture. Those watches in their Moorea collection are outfitted with quartz/Seiko movements, whereas the Manufacture line, as the name suggests, features their manufacture Calibre Royal movement. I'll let the reader decide how that factors into the "high end" debate.

They have very little distribution in the U.S. I believe the only authorized dealer here in the U.S. is Grenon's of Newport in Rhode Island, and I think they only recently became an AD. Also, I think I've read somewhere that when they went into receivership, their competition was impressed with their Calibre Royal movement and attempted to purchase it from them.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Vig2000 said:


> Their Calibre Royal movement is a thing to behold, and in my opinion, the movement is beautiful and high-end in every way. It scores bonus points for being a true French manufacture movement. *I don't think that another French manufacture movement is in existence today. *However, some of you who may have never heard of the brand may not like this: They manufacture all sorts of watches, including those with quartz and standard Seiko movements. They essentially have two lines-Moorea and Manufacture. Those watches in their Moorea collection are outfitted with quartz/Seiko movements, whereas the Manufacture line, as the name suggests, features their manufacture Calibre Royal movement. I'll let the reader decide how that factors into the "high end" debate.
> 
> They have very little distribution in the U.S. I believe the only authorized dealer here in the U.S. is Grenon's of Newport in Rhode Island, and I think they only recently became an AD. Also, I think I've read somewhere that when they went into receivership, their competition was impressed with their Calibre Royal movement and attempted to purchase it from them.


Would it be a French watch if the person who makes the watch is French, but makes the watch in Switzerland? ;-)

There's no arguing however that the strength of "Swiss" as a national brand associated with watchmaking is so strong that it often makes more sense to set up shop across the border than it does to stay in France and do one's thing.

All the best.


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## Ajax_Drakos (Aug 20, 2014)

Vig2000 said:


> Their Calibre Royal movement is a thing to behold, and in my opinion, the movement is beautiful and high-end in every way. It scores bonus points for being a true French manufacture movement. I don't think that another French manufacture movement is in existence today. However, some of you who may have never heard of the brand may not like this: They manufacture all sorts of watches, including those with quartz and standard Seiko movements. They essentially have two lines-Moorea and Manufacture. Those watches in their Moorea collection are outfitted with quartz/Seiko movements, whereas the Manufacture line, as the name suggests, features their manufacture Calibre Royal movement. I'll let the reader decide how that factors into the "high end" debate.
> 
> They have very little distribution in the U.S. I believe the only authorized dealer here in the U.S. is Grenon's of Newport in Rhode Island, and I think they only recently became an AD. Also, I think I've read somewhere that when they went into receivership, their competition was impressed with their Calibre Royal movement and attempted to purchase it from them.


All of this is accurate. I did a lot of research before I purchased my watch, particularly because the movement had a lot of problems with reliability when it first came out. The return rates in the first six months were extraordinarily high. I think this was the result of rushing the movement into the marketplace prematurely due to some financial pressures. In fact, my watch currently is being serviced due to a minor issue with the date wheel that is not overly concerning but that I wanted to deal with anyway.

When I first came across Pequignet, I was really surprised that they were responsible for this movement because this company had not done anything of distinction since it was started in the early 1970s. Then some guy buys the company, decides to turn it into a manufacture and spends a ton of money doing it. I think he underestimated the cost involved in producing a completely new in-house movement that was based on nothing that came before it and overestimated the demand for an expensive watch with an in-house movement coming from a brand that had no reputation for such a thing. That would explain the financial problems. And, yes, it's true that evidently a lot of Swiss companies were circling around like vultures around Pequignet after the financial struggles because they very much wanted that movement. I look at the movement in my watch, and I can see why.

Apparently, they have righted the ship at this point, and they have plans to make an in-house chronograph and later a tourbillon.


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## Mirabello1 (Sep 1, 2011)

Verdi said:


> The subject is very debatable. There are many new kids on the block who started to make "high-end fashionable/expensive" watches in the last 20-30 yrs. Some of them became known, such as Hublot, Richard Mille etc.....
> 
> IMO, to be called a high end watch is not enough to have an excellent product (good finishing, accuracy, in-house movement etc). Technically many brands/watches qualify BUT I belive you also need to have some tradition behind, a testimony for what you are producing. Without that the watch is missing an important component of what it needs to be can be called a high-end watch.
> I'd refer to Zenith and JLC as entry level high-end.


I would add GO to this list for entry level High End


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

flying.fish said:


> Hi everbody,
> What would be your high end pick from an AD which also can be considered a "budget" watch?
> Pictures please...
> Cheers


Truly, were I going to just send someone to an AD to buy a high end watch, say as a "congrats on passing the bar" or "welcome to the partnership" gift, I'd instruct them to use their judgement and select one of the following:
-- Rolex Oyster Perpetual (36 or 39) (I'd have said Air King last year, but it's been discontinued)
-- JLC Master Control
-- Omega Deville, Speedy or Seamaster
-- Cartier Caliber de Cartier
(Those watches are all pretty common, so no pics. Google is your friend.)

I'd have told them that because I wouldn't have someone run all over "hell's half acre" looking for an high end watch made by an arcane/esoteric producer. That just seems ridiculous for anyone but diehard watch collectors, and those people aren't going to need my input on what to buy. Moreover, what's the point of trying to "bottom feed" on the purchase price only to have to pay through the nose (time and money), so to speak, on the service end?

At some point, all watch consumers must face the facts. Whatever be the criteria by which one defines "high end," those traits will cost more or less the same sum (BNIB at MSRP) no matter what brand one chooses. The reason why that's so is that makers are very well aware of what they offer relative to what their competitors offer and they will price their watch accordingly and in accordance with their corporate pricing strategy which, often enough, may have little to do with the substance of the product itself.

So, as I think I said before, if you define what "high end" means to you, we can tell you what watches meet the criteria at the lowest price. (If you have precisely defined the term, I'm sorry, I missed that post.)

All the best.


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## Sick Benny (Oct 8, 2015)

I see Rolex, Hublot, GO, Zenith, IWC as entry high end luxury.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

Back from the dead.

The low end of high end has been discussed many times here. The key is defining high end first. While this forum has at least a murky definition of high end it still comes down to an individuals opinion where the line gets drawn between high end and mid tier. 

In my eyes if someone wants a piece that tends to be viewed as high end my most everyone, for what ever reason, pick a piece from one of the makers pretty universally considered high end across the board. For a low price point something like a Calatrava, Aquanaut, RO, Patrimony or bottom end Journe like a CB. To get the cheapest "high end" within the F381 definition (again murky) one would probably look to the fence straddlers. For example GO and JLC can range from high mid-tier to (especially in JLC's case) very high end. The Panolunar and Master Ultra Thin lines are getting pretty close t "high end" in my mind. I consider my JLC Master Geographic at the very top of mid-tier. 

I get the subject matter from an intellectual POV or in terms of the sub-forum as a "gate keeper" or low end benchmark but from a practical standpoint it makes little sense to me. Just about any watch will probably be considered less than "high end" by someone so you will always fail in having a "high end" watch by someones standards, so if for some reason a person wants/needs to own a high end watch the best yardstick is their own evaluation, if all else fails buy a complicated Patek, it will be considered high end by most all WIS and will be recognized as above most everything by the general public aware enough about watches to know there is something higher on the food chain than Rolex.


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## mlcor (Oct 21, 2013)

ilitig8 said:


> ...if all else fails buy a complicated Patek, it will be considered high end by most all WIS and will be recognized as above most everything by the general public aware enough about watches to know there is something higher on the food chain than Rolex.


...which did not include me until about five years ago...


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## Beaunecrusher (Feb 10, 2014)

I think it has become obvious from this and previous threads, that it is not a particular watch that is high end but the brand. The $80K Panerai written about in another thread will probably never be considered by this board as high end, but a quartz Patek would at least be discussed, and would probably make it. 


Once it is agreed that brand is the ultimate arbiter, then it becomes a matter for deciding where high end begins, tiers within the high end, the difference between haut horologie and high end etc. We can probably have another 15-20 threads on the topic, and still have a good time.


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## alobri3 (Nov 9, 2015)

I think it is simply a matter of price. High end in a global sense has to commend a high price tag, otherwise it is not a high end watch (to me). If I have to be a more precise in my opinion, an average second market price + average AD discounted price /2. If that price hits the mark of a designated figure - it should be deemed high end, as that presents the true demand and price point for said watch. One doesn't have to agree or like it, but in my eyes it makes it a high end watch. Be it a Rolex or a Seiko or Journe or Patek. Now the question becomes: at what price point according to the formula above the high end starts/ends.....that gets tricky and somewhat personal, but as with the supply/demand formula - the majority decides. Even then, the term "high end" is not described precisely or rather differently by everyone. Better to disclose the whole scale at once, for example "1" being watches under 50$ and "10" being watches over 0.5 mil $. Say high end would being an "8" with 20k-100k range. 

Personally, no amount of Brand pedigree, history, innovation matters when it comes down to a simple truth of average price point and demand.

But if someone wants to buy a 5k watch and convince themselves they just purchased a high-end watch by applying their own rules on what high end is - by all means! Do it, no one can't stop that person and the whole point of "high end" discussion becomes academic. 

just my 2c.


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Wyler, soon to be joined by L.Leroy...


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## payj (Oct 13, 2011)

Any Invicta

Sent On The Fly


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## littleprince (Oct 16, 2015)

payj said:


> Any Invicta
> 
> Sent On The Fly


That's a first. I see them online for under $100.

Invicta 8935 Watches,Men's Two Tone Blue Dial, Casual Invicta Quartz Watches

There is pushing the boundary and then there is no-holds-barred-watch-anarchy!


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## alobri3 (Nov 9, 2015)

If you take Invicta watch and tape to to the end of the stick, then hold the stick up as high as you can - you will get a high end Invicta....or not :/


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## mango_420 (Mar 2, 2010)

My high end watch was a lot less expensive on college than in my 30s. 

Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk


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## 00Photo (Jan 4, 2008)

Nomos Sundial. Manufacture Movement. In house manufacture and assembly. Goat leather strap. Less than $200.


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## Beaunecrusher (Feb 10, 2014)

How about this:


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## zlocko2002 (Aug 3, 2007)

JLC Master Ultra Thin 34mm









Unfortunately too small for my 7.5in wrist.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## alobri3 (Nov 9, 2015)

I don't think there is such a thing as "a watch is too small for the wrist". Too big - yes, but not too small. It may not be "in" right now, but that just about it. That's a beautiful watch right there ^^


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## zlocko2002 (Aug 3, 2007)

JLC is making Master Ultra Thin 38mm, but it has dots as minute markers and it is not so nice...

Sent from my SM-G350 using Tapatalk


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## gjku hgfdg (Jul 16, 2016)

I would probably go with a steel JLC dress watch.


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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

Ajax_Drakos said:


> All of this is accurate. I did a lot of research before I purchased my watch, particularly because the movement had a lot of problems with reliability when it first came out. The return rates in the first six months were extraordinarily high. I think this was the result of rushing the movement into the marketplace prematurely due to some financial pressures. In fact, my watch currently is being serviced due to a minor issue with the date wheel that is not overly concerning but that I wanted to deal with anyway.
> 
> When I first came across Pequignet, I was really surprised that they were responsible for this movement because this company had not done anything of distinction since it was started in the early 1970s. Then some guy buys the company, decides to turn it into a manufacture and spends a ton of money doing it. I think he underestimated the cost involved in producing a completely new in-house movement that was based on nothing that came before it and overestimated the demand for an expensive watch with an in-house movement coming from a brand that had no reputation for such a thing. That would explain the financial problems. And, yes, it's true that evidently a lot of Swiss companies were circling around like vultures around Pequignet after the financial struggles because they very much wanted that movement. I look at the movement in my watch, and I can see why.
> 
> Apparently, they have righted the ship at this point, and they have plans to make an in-house chronograph and later a tourbillon.


Former Zenith Marketing Manager, Didier Leibundgut, was responsible for taking Pequignet down the manufacture path - but almost killed the company in doing so.
When the current investors took charge, they had to finish the movement, which as you said, resulted in a hefty return rate under warranty.
Thankfully, those days are well behind them now, and it's onwards and upwards for the brand.

I tried to do my bit in lending them a helping hand with the newly introduced Moorea Ranelagh - but they really do deserve to be more recognised for the Calibre Royal equipped Manufacture Collection.


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## nilfire77 (Aug 30, 2008)

gjku hgfdg said:


> I would probably go with a steel JLC dress watch.


I tend to agree with most who recommend entry level JLCs as generally the least expensive high end watch. However, do be mindful that you are not getting the same finishing as the higher end JLCs.

For instance, the two entry level JLC calibers shown below (Cal. 899 and Cal. 975) has IMO, subpar finishing jobs on the bevels.










Whereas on a $40K watch like the Duometre below, the bevel finishing befits what a Haute Horlogerie brand rightfully should produce. It'd better be for that kind of price.










If you ask me, a pre-owned Blancpain (with a Cal. 6950 for example below) or a Geneva/QF Seal Chopard L.U.C will give plenty of Haute Horlogerie value for the money, even more so than a JLC.


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## gjku hgfdg (Jul 16, 2016)

^ 
Thanks for the info I found It very interesting.


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## gjku hgfdg (Jul 16, 2016)

Out of curiosity would the level of finishing be the same on an AP PP VC watch whether it be entry level or not?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Some of the Chopard LUC offerings


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## KtWUS (Mar 19, 2016)

gjku hgfdg said:


> Out of curiosity would the level of finishing be the same on an AP PP VC watch whether it be entry level or not?


My understanding is that they are not the same. Have a look at the comparison I made (with Breguet, ALS, PP, and VC) here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/how-do-you-rank-watch-characteristics-3099674-9.html#post29675554
All credit goes to the photographers and the members who posted those pics elsewhere for me to cannibalize.


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## gjku hgfdg (Jul 16, 2016)

KtWUS said:


> My understanding is that they are not the same. Have a look at the comparison I made (with Breguet, ALS, PP, and VC) here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/how-do-you-rank-watch-characteristics-3099674-9.html#post29675554
> All credit goes to the photographers and the members who posted those pics elsewhere for me to cannibalize.


Thanks


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## nilfire77 (Aug 30, 2008)

gjku hgfdg said:


> Out of curiosity would the level of finishing be the same on an AP PP VC watch whether it be entry level or not?


Interesting question, which I bet many would like to know as well. When looking at the Champions League of mainstream Haute Horlogerie brands, typically five power houses come to mind. Namely Patek Philippe, A. Lange & Sohne, Vacheron Constantin, Audemars Piguet and Breguet.

So, among the five, *do they have the same high standards of finishing throughout all their lines?* From what I have researched:

*Patek Philippe - No* (Slightly lesser finishing can be observed on the bevels of their entry level Calibers like the 215 and 240 - somewhat polished but machining lines still visible)
*A. Lange & Sohne - Yes* (The bevel on their most basic movement (Cal. L941.1) is just as excellently finished as their other higher end movements)
*Vacheron Constantin - Yes* (Less a handful of those based on JLC calibers, the rest of their basic movements found in the Overseas line are very well finished, eg. convex and shiny/polished bevels)
*Audemars Piguet - No* (Lesser finishing on their entry level movements like the Cal. 3120 from the basic Royal Oaks - bevels not hand polished)
*Breguet - No* (Lesser finishing on their basic Lemania movements in their Type XX line - bevels not hand polished)

Head to Head Comparison of Basic Movements from the Five High Horology Power Houses in Terms of Bevel Finishing









To sum it up, from what I have observed, only A. Lange & Sohne and Vacheron Constantin(most of their Calibers except JLC based) give us products with excellent finishing across the board regardless of their price level.

Edit: Found an article by Ben Clymer (Hodinkee) describing his experience visiting the above two manufactures -
http://howtospendit.ft.com/watches-jewellery/5264-a-watch-isnt-a-watch-until-its-been-finished


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## gjku hgfdg (Jul 16, 2016)

^
This is exactly what I wanted to know. 

Thanks


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## gorgon777 (May 6, 2007)

Get a second hand Chopard 1860 LUC with the 1.96 movement.

Here are are some comments from someone selling one:

*FS: Chopard LUC 1860 Ltd Edition*
Apr 11, 2016,12:48 PM

*Brand:* *Chopard - **(more)*
*Series: 0*
*Model:* LUC 1860 Ltd Edition
*Condition:* MINT
*Location:* Canada








*Status:* FS
*Listed:* Apr 11, 2016, 12:48 PM
*Asking Price:* USD 7,500 
*Retail Price:* USD 16,000
*Payment Info:*
*Remarks:*
Chopard LUC 1860 with 1.96 movement with Geneva Seal in white gold Salmon dial Box: Yes Papers: No Buckle: White gold Chopard tang buckle Dial: Salmon Guilloche with applied white gold numerals Rotor: 750WG Back: Skeleton Back Limited edition piece xxx/1860. Do not confuse this with the other Chopard with the lesser 3.96 movement and flat dial. This is the 1860 anniversary piece with amazing 1.96 movement, Geneva Seal (and superior finish to its peer the Patek 240 movement). This offering from Chopard is by far the best value proposition amongst its peers. 18k Guilloche dial with incredible work, hand applied white gold indices. Currently on a Black alligator.

Also check out this site for photos and more in depth information:

Chopard L.U.C. 1.96


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## hantms (May 28, 2014)

Here due to the Facebook post..

Anyway this gets down to people's definition of what just about be considered 'high end'. Or to put it in a nicer way: which brands are slightly underrated, despite being a manufacture with solid heritage.

Along those lines I get to JLC and Cartier.



















(And specifically the 'Drive' by Cartier, blending the traditional with the new in a masterful way. Among the longest heritage in the business, very well known as a brand, and in-house manufacture. What else could you possibly want, for what is basically entry-level Rolex money.)


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## nilfire77 (Aug 30, 2008)

nilfire77 said:


> Interesting question, which I bet many would like to know as well. When looking at the Champions League of mainstream Haute Horlogerie brands, typically five power houses come to mind. Namely Patek Philippe, A. Lange & Sohne, Vacheron Constantin, Audemars Piguet and Breguet.
> 
> So, among the five, do they have the same high standards of finishing throughout all their lines? From what I have researched:
> 
> ...


To provide an example for the above in bold - a JLC Cal. 889 rebranded as a VC Cal. 1126 (found in older Overseas models). Like what I've said earlier, do be aware that entry level JLC calibers are not as finely finished as their more expensive calibers.

Again, take note of the unpolished bevel on the Cal. 1126 (photo lifted from the article below).









Jack Forster did a review of the VC Overseas with Cal. 1126 here: ThePuristS.com


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## R_rated (Aug 1, 2016)

Find a grey market dealer and shop clearance. Even at 99% off, if you don't love it then it's still a waste. This mentality makes you materialistic and superficial and not a watch enthusiast. You'll be much happy without worrying what others think.

btw, the watch I've been wearing this week was 299$ and the 25k and up watches have sat. I may wear a 10k watch this weekend. Nobody cares

summary: focus on what speaks to YOU.


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## R_rated (Aug 1, 2016)

Find a grey market dealer and shop clearance. Even at 99% off, if you don't love it then it's still a waste. This mentality makes you materialistic and superficial and not a watch enthusiast. You'll be much happy without worrying what others think.

btw, the watch I've been wearing this week was 299$ and the 25k and up watches have sat. I may wear a 10k watch this weekend. Nobody cares

summary: focus on what speaks to YOU.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

R_rated said:


> Find a grey market dealer and shop clearance. Even at 99% off, if you don't love it then it's still a waste. This mentality makes you materialistic and superficial and not a watch enthusiast. You'll be much happy without worrying what others think.
> 
> btw, the watch I've been wearing this week was 299$ and the 25k and up watches have sat. I may wear a 10k watch this weekend. Nobody cares
> 
> summary: focus on what speaks to YOU.


If you run across any 99% off high-end watch clearances, feel free to PM this guy


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## R_rated (Aug 1, 2016)

Mediocre said:


> If you run across any 99% off high-end watch clearances, feel free to PM this guy


Bought a Porsche deign Lat year at 92% off... 12k MSRP which is just obnoxious... But with the discount it still wasn't really a steal but did bring it to a value.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

R_rated said:


> Bought a Porsche deign Lat year at 92% off... 12k MSRP which is just obnoxious... But with the discount it still wasn't really a steal but did bring it to a value.


That is Invicta level discounting!


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