# Tissot Powermatic 80 problems



## Arthur

I have a Tissot with the powermatic 80 movement. About 2 years old. Several weeks ago, it started to run very erratically, and then stopped completely. I sent it to my watchmaker who is very well trained and a competent watchmaker. He serviced the movement, and when he put it on his timegrapher, it was running all over the place. Today he emailed me to tell me that it had stopped again, and he cannot find anything wrong. His suggestion is to replace the movement with an ETA 2824-2. I'm pretty unhappy with this, as a two year old movement shouldn't be dead. 
Any suggestions as to what i need to do and second has anyone else had movement problems with this particular movement? My watchmaker told me that there are plastic parts inside that could be part of the problem.
Any thoughts, help appreciated. Thanks 


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## MNTN

The problem is that you send it to someone without a swatch account.


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## Arthur

How do you know that he doesn't have a swatch account? Actually, he is a Rolex trained watchmaker with a Rolex parts account, but he has worked on at least a half dozen watches for me that have ETA movements. No problems in the past with the ETA. Movements, that are a division of Swatch. 
My main question is has anyone else experienced problems with the Powermatic 80 movement. He told me that the balance wheel and pallet fork are composite material, not metal. Is this a weight savings change or a way to make the movement cheaper, at the expense of longevity?


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## MNTN

This is a way to make things more cheaply. 

If he has an account, then he should just order those, assuming they're the problem, and replace.


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## Robocaspar

If he serviced the movement I hope he did not clean the escapement wheel and pallet forks in the cleaning solution. 

Also there is a special oil for the pallet fork.


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## Arthur

Robocaspar said:


> If he serviced the movement I hope he did not clean the escapement wheel and pallet forks in the cleaning solution.
> 
> Also there is a special oil for the pallet fork.


I feel sure he didn't because he emailed me before he did anything and commented on the plastic parts.
If he is unable to get parts, I will probably send it to a watchmaker with a Swatch account, that can repair the movement.

Thanks for everyone's kind help.

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## pithy

Poor Tissot.

45 years pass and yet they still love racing guinea pigs.

The original Astrolon is but a historical footnote, long forgotten.

Obviously, Tissot forgot also.

lol.


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## pithy

Arthur said:


> . . . . who is very well trained and a competent watchmaker. . . . .


Per your analysis, noted.



Arthur said:


> . . . . he emailed me to tell me that it had stopped again, and he cannot find anything wrong. . . .


So it stopped but a "well trained and a competent watchmaker" could neither diagnose or repair a relatively simple movement. Very interesting, noted.



Arthur said:


> . . . . His suggestion is to replace the movement with an ETA 2824-2. . . .


So he wants to replace the original movement because he:

a. can't diagnose it?

and or

b. can't get parts for it?

and or

c. doesn't know how to repair it?

and or

d. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?



Arthur said:


> . . . . Any suggestions as to what i need to do . . .


You have no qualification as to the type of response, correct?



Arthur said:


> . . . . Any thoughts, help appreciated. . . .


SEE ABOVE.



MNTN said:


> The problem is that you send it to someone without a swatch account.


An assumption, but a reasonable one based on the OP's comments.



Arthur said:


> How do you know that he doesn't have a swatch account? . . .


SEE ABOVE:



Arthur said:


> . . . Actually, he is a Rolex trained watchmaker with a Rolex parts account, . . . .


Very interesting.


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## NutellaBear

The Powermatic 80 is a new movement from ETA (ETA C07.111). It is basically a 2824 with improvements to enable it to run with an 80 hour power reserve. The composites used in the escapement were designed that way to produce the additional run time. The problem with the movement is that it is in essence non-serviceable outside of the factory. It has elements of the ETA System 51 movement incorporated which is a disposable movement not designed to be serviced. 

The biggest problem your watchmaker is probably running into is that the timing is fixed by laser at the factory. You cannot regulate the movement — it doesn't even have any facility for regulation. Replacing it with a 2824, which is a workhorse of a movement and is fully serviceable, is a legitimate approach. But you will lose the 80 hour power reserve. The other choice is to send it back to the factory for service. There they will probably toss the movement and put a new one in the watch. Your watchmaker may be able to order a new movement though I do not know if ETA is selling that movement as a spare. A problem independent watchmakers are having across the board with the Swiss manufacturers is that they are slowly cutting off all access to spares and parts.

So your choices are to replace with a 2824 and lose the 80 hour power reserve or send it back to Tissot for service and probably get raped on the service fee. Enjoy!


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## Arthur

NutellaBear said:


> The Powermatic 80 is a new movement from ETA (ETA C07.111). It is basically a 2824 with improvements to enable it to run with an 80 hour power reserve. The composites used in the escapement were designed that way to produce the additional run time. The problem with the movement is that it is in essence non-serviceable outside of the factory. It has elements of the ETA System 51 movement incorporated which is a disposable movement not designed to be serviced.
> 
> The biggest problem your watchmaker is probably running into is that the timing is fixed by laser at the factory. You cannot regulate the movement - it doesn't even have any facility for regulation. Replacing it with a 2824, which is a workhorse of a movement and is fully serviceable, is a legitimate approach. But you will lose the 80 hour power reserve. The other choice is to send it back to the factory for service. There they will probably toss the movement and put a new one in the watch. Your watchmaker may be able to order a new movement though I do not know if ETA is selling that movement as a spare. A problem independent watchmakers are having across the board with the Swiss manufacturers is that they are slowly cutting off all access to spares and parts.
> 
> So your choices are to replace with a 2824 and lose the 80 hour power reserve or send it back to Tissot for service and probably get raped on the service fee. Enjoy!


Thanks very much, i believe that your answer explains the problem and solution very nicely. 
As I see it, from your explanation, this movement is great until it's not. When something happens, it cannot be "fixed" as can a more conventional movement. The only alternative as you stated is replace it with a 2824 or have the factory replace it, which along with shipping from the USA to Switzerland and back, will be way more than the cost of a new movement. I can live with out the 80 hour power reserve, especially if it is not as reliable or "fixable" as the more conventional movements.
If I were Swatch, I believe the thing I would be worried about is the longevity of these watches (movements). As we all know most movements require a service periodically. While I don't necessarily buy into the "every 4-5 years" recommendations that some manufacturers recommend, at some point they will all need a service. The problem as I see it, as these watches age, what happens when at some point the movement needs repairing, the owner takes it to his Tissot AD, or his local watchmaker, only to be told that the movement cannot be repaired or regulated. I believe that there are going to be a lot of unhappy owners when they find out their nice Tissot is going to need a trip to Switzerland or a new movement, neither of which is cheap.


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## NutellaBear

There probably is a Tissot Service Center in the US (New Jersey?) but the repair will still cost you.


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## pithy

NutellaBear said:


> . . . You cannot regulate the movement - it doesn't even have any facility for regulation. . .


Interesting.


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## Deli

NutellaBear said:


> The biggest problem your watchmaker is probably running into is that the timing is fixed by laser at the factory. You cannot regulate the movement - it doesn't even have any facility for regulation.


This movement can be regulated, quite easily in fact.
The beat error can be modified, the rate as well.

For the rate adjustment, you'll need a small specialized tool ** to support the balance arms. It's done very quickly.
To turn the balance weights and not to scratch these, one should use CuBe blades btw.

In an official service center, they wouldn't (directly) service the movement, but change the whole for a freshly serviced one.

_** I'll take a photo if someone's interested in that._


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## Archer

Arthur said:


> The only alternative as you stated is replace it with a 2824 or have the factory replace it, which along with shipping from the USA to Switzerland and back, will be way more than the cost of a new movement.


Not sure why you are assuming it would have to go to Switzerland. If the movement needs replacing, any Swatch service center can do it, or any watchmaker with a Swatch parts account.

Cheers, Al


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## pithy

Robocaspar said:


> If he serviced the movement I hope he did not clean the escapement wheel and pallet forks in the cleaning solution. . .


Why? Can their lubrication only be applied at the factory?



Robocaspar said:


> . . . . Also there is a special oil for the pallet fork.


A special oil for the:

Fork slot?

Pivots?

Stones?

What is the oil's designation?



NutellaBear said:


> . . . The composites used in the escapement were designed that way to produce the additional run time. . . .


The stones pictured below appear to be the ubquitous ETA polyrubis.

The escape wheel pictured below appears to have a metallic gleam.



NutellaBear said:


> . . . The problem with the movement is that it is in essence non-serviceable outside of the factory. . . .


Interesting.



NutellaBear said:


> . . . It has elements of the ETA System 51 movement incorporated which is a disposable movement not designed to be serviced. . . .


Interesting



NutellaBear said:


> . . . The biggest problem your watchmaker is probably running into is that the timing is fixed by laser at the factory. . . .


Interesting



NutellaBear said:


> . . . The other choice is to send it back to the factory for service. . . .


Interesting.



Arthur said:


> Thanks very much, i believe that your answer explains the problem and solution very nicely. As I see it, from your explanation, this movement is great until it's not. When something happens, it cannot be "fixed" as can a more conventional movement. The only alternative as you stated is replace it with a 2824 or have the factory replace it, which along with shipping from the USA to Switzerland and back, will be way more than the cost of a new movement. I can live with out the 80 hour power reserve, especially if it is not as reliable or "fixable" as the more conventional movements. If I were Swatch, I believe the thing I would be worried about is the longevity of these watches (movements). As we all know most movements require a service periodically. While I don't necessarily buy into the "every 4-5 years" recommendations that some manufacturers recommend, at some point they will all need a service. The problem as I see it, as these watches age, what happens when at some point the movement needs repairing, the owner takes it to his Tissot AD, or his local watchmaker, only to be told that the movement cannot be repaired or regulated. I believe that there are going to be a lot of unhappy owners when they find out their nice Tissot is going to need a trip to Switzerland or a new movement, neither of which is cheap.






Archer said:


> Not sure why you are assuming it would have to go to Switzerland. If the movement needs replacing, any Swatch service center can do it, or any watchmaker with a Swatch parts account. Cheers, Al


I'm curious why it would require replacement and not simply service and parts if any.

How about you?



Deli said:


> This movement can be regulated, quite easily in fact. The beat error can be modified, the rate as well. For the rate adjustment, you'll need a small specialized tool ** to support the balance arms. It's done very quickly. To turn the balance weights and not to scratch these, one should use CuBe blades btw. . . .


Huh. Imagine that!

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Pictured below: H-10 Hamilton variant.


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## Deli

Pallet "stones" as written, but the whole fork is ... synthetic  (white Delrin ?).
The escape wheel and the fork are matched in factory for every movement.

I don't know much about the TH7 viscosity properties, though I did overhaul a 28xx in an automatic Swatch a few years ago, using some classic 941 for the synthetic _blue _fork, and I got good amplitude, even years after the work performed. This TH7 should be close to 941/9415 I'd say.

As always, I don't know the Dr.Tillwich equivalent.


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## Archer

pithy said:


> I'm curious why it would require replacement and not simply service and parts if any.
> 
> How about you?


I never indicated it required replacement, only that if it did there's no reason to assume this can only be done by the factory.

I have no opinion on the state of the movement or if it can be repaired.


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## pithy

Archer said:


> I never indicated it required replacement, only that if it did there's no reason to assume this can only be done by the factory.
> 
> I have no opinion on the state of the movement or if it can be repaired.


You sly devil, you.

You always know and or suspect more than you are willing to venture.

Quotes like the above make me wonder if you were a Q.C. in a former life or just played one on TV.


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## pithy

Deli said:


> Pallet "stones" as written, but the whole fork is ... synthetic  (white Delrin ?). The escape wheel and the fork are matched in factory for every movement. I don't know much about the TH7 viscosity properties, though I did overhaul a 28xx in an automatic Swatch a few years ago, using some classic 941 for the synthetic _blue _fork, and I got good amplitude, even years after the work performed. This TH7 should be close to 941/9415 I'd say. As always, I don't know the Dr.Tillwich equivalent.


Good information.

Does the chronometer version have 23 or 25 jewels?

How many pages is that technical communication? (Do you have the sheet number?)

Are we correct in assuming that the 23 jewel versions of this family have plastic escape wheel and pallet fork?

And the that the 25 jewel versions of it are metallic escape wheel and ruby pallet stone?

The ETA/Hamilton cross references are as follows:

C07.611 (H-10) 
C07.621 (H-30) 
C07.641 (H-40)


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## Archer

Robocaspar said:


> If he serviced the movement I hope he did not clean the escapement wheel and pallet forks in the cleaning solution.
> 
> Also there is a special oil for the pallet fork.


You can clean the pallet fork and escapement in cleaning solution (tech guide recommends Benzene) but it does caution not to use an ultrasonic on those parts.

Special oil for the pallet impulse surfaces, and 9030 on the pivots...


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## pithy

Archer said:


> You can clean the pallet fork and escapement in cleaning solution (tech guide recommends Benzene) but it does caution not to use an ultrasonic on those parts. Special oil for the pallet impulse surfaces, and 9030 on the pivots...


The C01.211 has some plastic.


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## pithy

Mr. MTMN:

Do these look like a patent drawings to you?


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## Deli

Hi,



pithy said:


> Good information.
> 
> Does the chronometer version have 23 or 25 jewels?


23.



> How many pages is that technical communication? (Do you have the sheet number?)


Tech info _CT C07111 FDE 564665 __ - 28 pages._

Manufacturing info _IH C07111 FDE 564662_ - 16 pages.



> Are we correct in assuming that the 23 jewel versions of this family have plastic escape wheel and pallet fork? And the that the 25 jewel versions of it are metallic escape wheel and ruby pallet stone?


No, were not 

The EW and pallet fork are "synthetic", on both Tissot CHR (23j) and regular (23j) versions. I don't know about the Hamilton/Mido etc versions though, it may slightly differ.
If my memory's right, on the C07 CHR, the barrel's not the same, and of course the different cosc ratings. Marketing and retail trick ...

BTW, the Th7 prefix reminds me about the *th*ixotropic properties of the 941/9415 greases.

It seems we both have read the USD700535S1.


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## emso

*Few facts*
1. Powermatic is a serviceable movement.
2. Yes it has a plastic escapement wheel and pallet fork
3. It needs a special tool to regulate the watch to avoid the balance wheel damage like the one below:







4. In the technical documents it does not say that the escape wheels and pallet forks are paired and they're sold separately
5. Also it does not say that they should not be washed
6. But it says that the pallet fork pivot should however be oiled with 9030 oil

*Two non facts *
i have serviced 5 pcs of them allready:"
2 with casing screws fallen and 
3 of them with non flat wheels which touched between (third with seconds wheel)

i guess i helped.

br
emso


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## Pepr

Pepr said:


> So with all that sarcasm, I would have a few question for you.
> 
> 1- Are you an authorize repair shop by the Swash group
> 2- if you are, can you get and replace these "disposables components/movements and at what cost.
> 3- And the last and more important question, have you ever done it with success or is that all just theoretical
> 
> This movement is on the market for barely 3 years and we hear more and more of unrepairable failures. As much as the Swash group has successfully save the swiss industry ,for a time, from the tsunami of the quartz revolution, as much they are shooting themselves in the foot with all that cheap, disposable plastic movements. At least Swash intend them for the lower part of the market but Tissot has the nerve to put a 2-3 years life expectancy movement in a $1000.00+ watch. That looks to me like a company that want to make a quick buck before packing up.
> 
> I'm the new owner of a beautiful Tissot Chemin des tourelles with a Powermatic 80 movement. I've had it for 2 days and it hold time in the -1.5 sd. It's very comfortable to wear and a beauty to look at. Had I read all of this, I would probably have chosen another model, 2824-2 movement or a Seiko 6r15. Nevertheless I think I'm going to keep it and hope that all this will be sorted out in two years if it fails. If on the other hand it becomes public knowledge that this movement is a flaw, my watch won't worth a penny in two years.
> 
> Life is full of uncertainty, so lets wait and see but my next watch will not be a Powermatic 80 and probably not swiss made. At least not one made by a member of the Swash group.


I'm sorry, I've had answers to many of my question during the time I was writing it. I tried to edit or delete it but it seems I'm not permitted to do that. So please disregard my post #25


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## LMF5000

Pepr said:


> I'm sorry, I've had answers to many of my question during the time I was writing it. I tried to edit or delete it but it seems I'm not permitted to do that. So please disregard my post #25


So, it's been 2-3 years. How has your powermatic 80 held up? Still running strong?

I'm considering buying one for myself but not sure whether I should be concerned about the durability.


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## Pepr

Hi, I haven't be here for quite a while. My Tissot Powermatic 80 is still working good. It slowed down quite a bit though. It's probably in the - 10sec a day now although I haven't check it précisely lately.


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## lvt

How accurate is the non-COSC version supposed to be?


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## Pepr

I think - 30sec to +15sec is what was advertised 4 years ago when I got it so it's still well in the range. One précision on my previous response on longevety is that I wear that watch in rotation with a few others and it can be a few days to a few weeks without running at times.


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## ExpiredWatchdog

I have two Tissot watches with Powermatic 80 movements, the oldest is maybe five years old and the second is a year younger. They’ve both kept good time while I’ve had them; the second was the most accurate watch I owned at the time. Neither has seen a huge amount of use as my rotation is now nine deep and I mix it up pretty well. 

I have no idea whether they have any plastic parts but I’ll have a good look in the microscope when I get a chance. 

So far I’m a happy customer but I would like to find a tech sheet just to know what I’m dealing with. That and I hope their first service is well in the future.


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## LMF5000

Thanks for the long-term review 

I've had a mini-epiphany over the last few days. After spending my whole life preferring automatics (have had a seiko 5 on my wrist for the last 9 years) I'm looking for a new engagement watch, and am considering getting a quartz. I can't stand the tick-tick movement of the second hand on an ordinary quartz, but there are watches like the bulova precisionist that move the hand 16 times per second so to the naked eye it's almost a smooth sweep. I mean, it's kind of sad that all automatics seem to eventually lose their accuracy over time. I had a 30-year old citizen that would gain 5 minutes a month. My Seiko 5 loses about 5 minutes a month so I have to pull the crown out and adjust it regularly. I'm thinking my next watch should be a quartz with all the features that are just obscenely difficult and expensive to put on a mechanical watch (alarm, countdown timer, stopwatch with split and lap times, dual time, maybe even compass and barometer...).


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## LMF5000

Edit: Sorry, double post.


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