# P.5000 known issues?



## MTS (Jul 26, 2010)

Good morning,

I am getting ready to buy my first Panerai from an AD. Originally I wanted a hand wind, two hand, like the Pam 112 or even a 3 hand 111. I love the interaction of winding my watches, I have a Speedy with the hand wound Lemania, so keeping a watch wound is not a problem for me. I liked the look of the 510, loved that it was a non-date, and was really excited about the in-house movement. 

However, in looking through past posts I see grumblings of poor performance from the P.5000, poor time keeping rate, etc. But I could not find anything specific on these issues. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with this caliber?

And I apologize if this topic has been covered, I did a few searches, but like I mentioned I could not find any "cold hard facts".

Thanks in advance!


----------



## MTS (Jul 26, 2010)

. . . just saw P1723 posts after I posted. Hmmmm, maybe I will stay away from the P.5000 cal.


----------



## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

Never have any pam with P5000,however if you can afford it,why don't you go with 233 with P2002 movt that's been around longer,I saw some pre owned around $9000 mark

If I had to redo my collection,I'd still pick 111 over 510 though...I like the 111 dial better


----------



## MTS (Jul 26, 2010)

Yeah, I do really like the Pam 111, but figured I could pick that one up later on the secondary market. I am thinking I may have to go with the Pam 312 though.


----------



## Paneraiforthewin (Dec 16, 2015)

MTS said:


> Yeah, I do really like the Pam 111, but figured I could pick that one up later on the secondary market. I am thinking I may have to go with the Pam 312 though.


Interesting, as I'm looking to buy a PAM 510.


----------



## MTS (Jul 26, 2010)

Yeah, I am really interested in laying down $7k if there is rate issues. Would rather just go with a Cal 9000 in the Pam 312. One the plus side it is a 1950 case, down side is it is an automatic and has a date.


----------



## P1723 (Dec 20, 2013)

Don't worry,not all P5000s has issues.
Just my luck.
Anyway,both 111 & 510 is cool.
My wife is deciding between the 2.


----------



## SCHMIZE (Oct 10, 2015)

No issues with my Pam 560. I was drawn towards the new movement as it cures pretty much all opposition to the value aspect of a panerai. 8 day power reserve makes a neat complication and wears the simplicity well. Hits all the modern movement specs, free sprung balance wheel, shock, etc. Picked it up from my ad with an extra year of warranty and alligator strap. Actually kinda a bargain proposition with what you get around 7k


----------



## JPfeuffer (Aug 12, 2011)

My P5000 runs great. About 5 seconds a day. That's fine with me. Love the power reserve. Love how nice and prescise the smooth clicking feels and sounds when wonder. I look forward to winding it up every week. It's s nice little ritual to start my weekend off. The.. pleasure of the winding mechanism is nicer then my 111G. I have no regrets. As usual you gotta remember, there are more happy owners in the hundreds or thousands then the handful that complain.


----------



## JPfeuffer (Aug 12, 2011)

*When winding


----------



## WatchNRolla (Feb 4, 2014)

No problems with my 590


----------



## MTS (Jul 26, 2010)

Well, thank you for the feed back guys, I am deciding now between the 510, 590, or for a non P.5000, a 312.


----------



## definitelydan (Mar 24, 2013)

Good luck and let us know how it goes. I love the 590 and got one because of the dial symmetry and the solid case back. Of course, your preferences might differ. Do note that I had problems with my p5000 movement which I do not believe have been solved yet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MTS (Jul 26, 2010)

definitelydan said:


> Good luck and let us know how it goes. I love the 590 and got one because of the dial symmetry and the solid case back. Of course, your preferences might differ. Do note that I had problems with my p5000 movement which I do not believe have been solved yet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Definitelydan, are they rate problems like others have mentioned or?


----------



## McGriddle (Jan 25, 2015)

I have a PAM 510 as well. The watch runs great and I've had no issues here. Accuracy after owning it for almost a year is around +5 seconds per day overall. I'm very happy with it and love the 8 day PR.


----------



## definitelydan (Mar 24, 2013)

MTS said:


> Definitelydan, are they rate problems like others have mentioned or?


Yes rate problems. Mine can gain up to 5 minutes per day for the first couple of days on a full wind. Usually calms down at the fourth/fifth day. Probably a mainspring issue, which is weird, considering PSC changed the mainspring after I sent it in the first time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stockae92 (Feb 10, 2006)

My 510 runs consistent with no problem. I do like the new updated case and dial of the 510, I would choose 510 over 111 if I had to choose one or another. 

Having 8 days in-house movement is great as well. I value an in-house movement and 8 days power reserve set it apart a little more. Overall I am very happy with the 510.


----------



## MTS (Jul 26, 2010)

So I decided to spend a bit more and pick up a 312, I will keep you guys posted . . .


----------



## blashyrkh (Jun 19, 2015)

definitelydan said:


> YMine can gain up to 5 minutes per day for the first couple of days on a full wind.


I have 510 and I have exactly the same issue with it. After being fully wound it starts running too fast for several minutes.
So I wind it up, leave for 5 minutes and then set the time. Not sure that it is acceptable for 7k$ watch but it works.


----------



## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

Just wondering if anyone who had a P.5000 based watch that ran fast got it satisfactorily repaired or if they just need to live with it. If it was repaired by Panerai, do you know what was corrected?

New PAM610. For the first few weeks wound it weekly and adjusted the time. Ran fast but some say that the movement needs a break-in period. I eventually started a spreadsheet to keep track of the time and now have two months worth of data. The watch is fully wound once every Monday. Most weeks I would adjust the time after the full wind, and on average the watch would gain between 5 and 10 seconds/day over a week's time (most days are between 0 and 15 seconds/day, but it averages out to 5-10 seconds/day)

On three of the weeks I did not adjust the time after the full wind, and on those weeks it gained about 15 seconds per day over the week. What I noticed is that much of that gain happened during the first day. This past week I noted that it gained 15 seconds in the first five minutes and 42 seconds in the first hour after the full wind!

For me, such timekeeping isn't acceptable. 5 to 10 seconds per day is worse than any watch I've ever had, and the 45 seconds per day for the first day and over 1.5 minutes/week fast seems horrible for any watch. I plan on sending it back for repairs, but would like to know if anyone had any success and what might need to be repaired/replaced.

BTW, I realize that this is a base Panerai so it's easy to adjust the time since there's no seconds hand to sync properly, but something still seems wrong with the movement. Also, I'm timing the watch by photographing it when the minute hand crosses one of the baton markers and noting the GPS time of the photo. That could certainly be off by a couple of seconds, but over the weeks and months those errors should average out.


----------



## numbernine (Aug 6, 2016)

HilltopMichael said:


> Just wondering if anyone who had a P.5000 based watch that ran fast got it satisfactorily repaired or if they just need to live with it. If it was repaired by Panerai, do you know what was corrected?
> 
> New PAM610. For the first few weeks wound it weekly and adjusted the time. Ran fast but some say that the movement needs a break-in period. I eventually started a spreadsheet to keep track of the time and now have two months worth of data. The watch is fully wound once every Monday. Most weeks I would adjust the time after the full wind, and on average the watch would gain between 5 and 10 seconds/day over a week's time (most days are between 0 and 15 seconds/day, but it averages out to 5-10 seconds/day)
> 
> ...


I'm curious, have you tried waiting 5min after winding to set the time as others noted? While I had my 510 I found it could gain a good 2-3 minutes immediately after winding, but shortly after would settle into a respectable +2-3s/day consistently until wound fully again a week later.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

numbernine said:


> I'm curious, have you tried waiting 5min after winding to set the time as others noted? While I had my 510 I found it could gain a good 2-3 minutes immediately after winding, but shortly after would settle into a respectable +2-3s/day consistently until wound fully again a week later.


Thinking about it and looking at the spreadsheet, that's what I'm doing most weeks. I fully wind the watch, reset the time back a few minutes and then wait until the minute hand crosses one of the baton markers to take a picture of it to get the exact time. I'm not picking up the super fast running during the first few minutes after fully winding it that way on my spreadsheet. I just happened to reset the watch too far back a few times that I didn't need to adjust the time after winding and that's when I noticed the super fast running. It's probably always doing that, it's just that I didn't always pick that up because of how I needed to check the time without having a seconds hand...

Still, 5-10 seconds/day over a week is worse than any watch I've ever had, and on top of that there's additional error for the first few minutes after fully winding it. For me this is unacceptable timekeeping for any watch.

I take it that when you said "while I had my 510" that you never got the issue sorted out by Panerai or anyone else?


----------



## numbernine (Aug 6, 2016)

HilltopMichael said:


> I take it that when you said "while I had my 510" that you never got the issue sorted out by Panerai or anyone else?


Right. Given the excellent accuracy I experienced outside those initial few minutes post-wind I didn't pursue it further. I suppose I would have been more inclined to had the watch needed winding more than a few times a month.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

It's pathetic that Panerai have still not been able to properly regulate this type of movement despite its existence for several years now. Reliable timekeeping should be a given at this price point. My dislike of the brand is growing by the day.


----------



## peenoise (Sep 5, 2012)

T1meout said:


> It's pathetic that Panerai have still not been able to properly regulate this type of movement despite its existence for several years now. Reliable timekeeping should be a given at this price point. My dislike of the brand is growing by the day.


That's why it's better to buy the movement, not the brand.

I own a Panerai but opted for their model with reliable movement, Calibre OP II on pam005.
at this stage i will not buy their model with so called "in house" movement.

I will reserved my money to other brand with time tested "in house" movement" (e.g., Rolex)


----------



## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

If you want 8 days,P2002 is the way to go

My 368 from 2011 went to a timegrapher and got around -2/+6spd on several positions


----------



## Oklahoma (Feb 9, 2011)

I have had a 510 for a couple months now and i did notice the fast running on a full wind but not to the extent everyone else is. On a full wind mine will gain around 15 to 20 sec. in the first couple hours then settles into around -1.5 per day when worn so the net over the week between winds is only a gain of a second or 2. If I let it sit unworn it loses around .5 per day. So overt the last month it had maintained around a +1.6 per day. 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## MrButterman (Jan 31, 2016)

I don't own a P.5000 movement but am on the lookout for a 8 day pam and all of the newer ones come with this, to my knowledge. 

From what Oklahoma is saying, at least for him, things even out to a pretty respectable point. With that said, if it was a big concern has anyone tried just not winding the watch to the max and seeing if that resolves the issue. If the issue is only present for a few hours you could probably still get 7.5 days out of one wind and avoid the initial larger swings. 

As I don't have a deep knowledge across brands, what other companies offer a similar length PR? I have not seen any from my Watchville/WUS readings.


----------



## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

I know IWC have 7/8 days PR
Hublot do make a watch with 45 days PR (IIRC)
On the affordable side,there are some German brand with 8 days movt,I think Eberhardt & co?


----------



## Oklahoma (Feb 9, 2011)

Oris has a 10 day. 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

MrButterman said:


> From what Oklahoma is saying, at least for him, things even out to a pretty respectable point. With that said, if it was a big concern has anyone tried just not winding the watch to the max and seeing if that resolves the issue. If the issue is only present for a few hours you could probably still get 7.5 days out of one wind and avoid the initial larger swings.


In theory that could work, but I don't see how to know when to stop winding. I always have wound manual wind watches fully until you can't wind them anymore. I've never done it by counting the number of turns of the crown, and I suspect that number will change every time depending on exactly how far each turn of the crown goes. I think on my PAM610 it's about 40-something back and forth winds for me. If you stopped to soon to not get seven full days of power the watch would stop before next week's wind, and on a base Panerai without the seconds hand it may not be noticeable for a while that the watch has stopped. Wind to far or all the way and then you get the super fast running initially.

But, I wonder if there's some adjustment that can be made to the movement to not wind it all the way? As long as I could reliably get a good seven days of power reserve I'd be happy if it meant the watch was more accurate and I didn't need to adjust the time by a couple of minutes every week.


----------



## nrcooled (Jun 14, 2011)

I have not noticed any issues with mine so far. I have a PAM 609 with the 8 days P5k movement and it is running iaw spec. I will continue to track it but so far so good.

Sent from my P027 using Tapatalk


----------



## MrButterman (Jan 31, 2016)

HilltopMichael said:


> In theory that could work, but I don't see how to know when to stop winding. I always have wound manual wind watches fully until you can't wind them anymore. I've never done it by counting the number of turns of the crown, and I suspect that number will change every time depending on exactly how far each turn of the crown goes. I think on my PAM610 it's about 40-something back and forth winds for me. If you stopped to soon to not get seven full days of power the watch would stop before next week's wind, and on a base Panerai without the seconds hand it may not be noticeable for a while that the watch has stopped. Wind to far or all the way and then you get the super fast running initially.
> 
> But, I wonder if there's some adjustment that can be made to the movement to not wind it all the way? As long as I could reliably get a good seven days of power reserve I'd be happy if it meant the watch was more accurate and I didn't need to adjust the time by a couple of minutes every week.


Good point on not wanting to come up short on the wind without a second hand. That is where the full 8 days is really a plus. Please post your results if you try the 90% wind option. I still have plans on a p5000 movement by year's end.


----------



## JohnAcosta (Apr 13, 2016)

I found this thread while researching more information regarding the P.5000 movement, so I apologize in advance for reviving a semi dead thread. About two years ago I tried on a PAM 564 & 562 at a Panerai AD and I decided at the time to not buy it. I LOVED the way it looked and wore on my wrist (7.5in wrists) and the simplistic and highly legible dial almost made me lay down my credit card right there. The saleswoman was telling about about the P.5000 movement and how it is in house, free sprung balance, 8-day reserve, etc and it has all the bells and whistles you'd want in a modern manual wind movement. I thought great but I decided to not buy it as the movement was relatively new. However since that day I keep finding myself looking at the 562 and hovering over the idea of purchasing. 

Anyway, I was researching more on the movement to see if after a couple years there's good and bad regarding it. I was just wondering if and how it is acceptable that after the initial full winding that the watch will gain up to two minutes for the first couple hours, and slowing down to the point of netting only a few seconds gained over the eight day power reserve? To me, that doesn't seem like a movement I would want in a piece at this price point. Is this behavior common for this movement, or is this something that only a WIS would really notice and I should let slide? I still really like the look and feel of the 562, but for $7k, I would want a movement that I wont have to "settle" for. Thanks.


----------



## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

For what it's worth, my PAM610 that was bought new with the two year factory warranty about six months ago is an R model which I believe is 2015. I believe that the P.5000 movement was introduced in 2013. I don't know if there have been any changes to that movement over the years and if so, if mine would have those modifications or not.

But I am one who is not pleased with the time keeping. It runs very fast when first wound, probably between 30 and 90 seconds for the first day (although most of that increase is in the first few minutes) Other days also runs faster than I would prefer, and isn't really consistent from day to day, but that I could probably live with that if needed. But I can't live with a watch that's on average over 12 seconds fast/day and that on the first day could be a minute or more fast. I plan on sending it back to Panerai in a few weeks and we'll see what they do about it.

I went with the PAM610 because I wanted a slim Radiomir and I liked the non sandwich dial. I also like that it has an eight day movement as I'm always concerned with striping the threads on a screw down crown. Now I only need to unscrew the crown once a week vs the every day or two if I had found a 210.

But had I wanted a Luminor, I would have gotten one with the old ETA movements. I think they look better than the P.5000, are probably less expensive to have serviced when needed and every watch I've ever owned the 6497 or 6498 movement (mostly non Panerai watches) have kept excellent time. I would also wind them daily. That to me is easier to remember than winding every other day. It also means that on average it's always about 75% or so wound which should keep it a bit more accurate.



JohnAcosta said:


> I still really like the look and feel of the 562, but for $7k, I would want a movement that I wont have to "settle" for. Thanks.


Are there any Luminors in Panerai's current lineup that you like with the OPI or OPII movement?
PAM1000, PAM1005 or PAM632 perhaps?​


----------



## JohnAcosta (Apr 13, 2016)

HilltopMichael said:


> For what it's worth, my PAM610 that was bought new with the two year factory warranty about six months ago is an R model which I believe is 2015. I believe that the P.5000 movement was introduced in 2013. I don't know if there have been any changes to that movement over the years and if so, if mine would have those modifications or not.
> 
> But I am one who is not pleased with the time keeping. It runs very fast when first wound, probably between 30 and 90 seconds for the first day (although most of that increase is in the first few minutes) Other days also runs faster than I would prefer, and isn't really consistent from day to day, but that I could probably live with that if needed. But I can't live with a watch that's on average over 12 seconds fast/day and that on the first day could be a minute or more fast. I plan on sending it back to Panerai in a few weeks and we'll see what they do about it.
> 
> ...



​
Thanks for the response. I have read multiple threads where owners of the watches using this movement have expressed mixed opinions. Some have shared our opinion where this kind of performance isn't acceptable and have sent their watches back to Panerai. Then there are some who seem to mock the idea of time keeping in a watch being more precise than +/- 30 seconds a day. In my opinion, if your watch can't keep good time, then its just a bracelet. I don't get it in the end.



HilltopMichael said:


> Are there any Luminors in Panerai's current lineup that you like with the OPI or OPII movement?
> PAM1000, PAM1005 or PAM632 perhaps?


I'm not really a fan of the logo on the dial and I was really into the idea of a titanium case. Thank you for the suggestions though. To be completely honest, I'm sort of turned off the idea of Panerai at the moment. It's a shame about the movement because I absolutely love the aesthetics of the watch. The looks combined with the titanium case, 8 day movement, 300M rating.. it sounds like the perfect watch to be honest. If only it was able to keep good time.


----------



## chemistman (Aug 28, 2014)

Having recently bought a P5000 pam, here is my 2cents:

- Accuracy like many people said , it runs fast. I wind it maybe 2 times per week? Runs about 30 second fast during one week.
- Personally I used to care a lot about accuracy but not anymore. I also own a pam 005, 24 and an old 40mm 119. All powered by eta 6497 and 7750 based movement. Dead on accurate and all within cosc spec.

Good thing about the P5000:
- Nice to see the case back movement - too many replica eta or homage Pam's around.
- 8 day power reserve is very very handy if you have many mechanical watches and having to wind it up every time. I end up wearing non date pam and 8 day power reserve the most. Gmt watch is the worst to adjust date time. I haven't worn the blnr for months now lol.

Things to consider:
-P5000 is not the best looking movement. They just slap on the big plate to cover up the barrels 
-have to 've serviced by Panerai and cost a lot more than eta Pams.
- accuracy like above mentioned


----------



## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

When it comes to aesthetics,I think most pam in house movts are "ugly",they cover too much and the anglage on the edges aren't that refined however it's still better than a Rolex just as an example,their movements look crude for the price they ask....


----------



## ROG58 (Aug 17, 2017)

Synequano said:


> When it comes to aesthetics,I think most pam in house movts are "ugly",they cover too much and the anglage on the edges aren't that refined however it's still better than a Rolex just as an example,their movements look crude for the price they ask....


I have to agree, panerai seem to be lagging behind for the cheaper price, you could look at lets say Omega PO line, they are Metas certified better than chronometer, they have a silicon hairspring, and good shock protection with a 15,000 gauss antimagnetic protection, when you look at that and what you get for your money Omega must be one of the best now.


----------



## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

The thing with Omega is...I don't like any of their modern watches...and their newer movements are thick (at least for 8500 and 9300)

I'm not sure about Panerai's antimagnetic properties but they have made antimagnetic watch in 2004,I think that was even before Rolex re-establised their milgauss line


----------



## ndrs63 (Dec 30, 2017)

HilltopMichael said:


> Just wondering if anyone who had a P.5000 based watch that ran fast got it satisfactorily repaired or if they just need to live with it. If it was repaired by Panerai, do you know what was corrected?
> 
> New PAM610. For the first few weeks wound it weekly and adjusted the time. Ran fast but some say that the movement needs a break-in period. I eventually started a spreadsheet to keep track of the time and now have two months worth of data. The watch is fully wound once every Monday. Most weeks I would adjust the time after the full wind, and on average the watch would gain between 5 and 10 seconds/day over a week's time (most days are between 0 and 15 seconds/day, but it averages out to 5-10 seconds/day)
> 
> ...


5 to 10 seconds per day for a mechanical watch, let alone manual wound one is not bad. I'm contemplating buying a Pam 610 from watch warehouse, as they have it the cheapest. I will be happy if my benchmarks match yours

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

ndrs63 said:


> 5 to 10 seconds per day for a mechanical watch, let alone manual wound one is not bad. I'm contemplating buying a Pam 610 from watch warehouse, as they have it the cheapest. I will be happy if my benchmarks match yours


I did send my PAM610 for a warranty repair over a year ago now, and it came back running much, much better. It's less than a second fast per day, and very consistent from day to day. There was certainly something wrong with it before.


----------



## michael8238 (Sep 13, 2015)

I can happily report that I just got my Pam 510 back from a service and the timekeeping is significantly improved.
It previously had the common 'surge' problem that it would gain 2~3min within a few hours when fully wound, and then gained about 15~20 sec per day afterwards.
Now it runs at a very consistent +6 sec/day through the whole week.
I think these movements can definitely be regulated to a very respectable accuracy.


----------



## ndrs63 (Dec 30, 2017)

michael8238 said:


> I can happily report that I just got my Pam 510 back from a service and the timekeeping is significantly improved.
> It previously had the common 'surge' problem that it would gain 2~3min within a few hours when fully wound, and then gained about 15~20 sec per day afterwards.
> Now it runs at a very consistent +6 sec/day through the whole week.
> I think these movements can definitely be regulated to a very respectable accuracy.


Was it a warranty repair? Did you buy it from AD? If not, how did you go about it? Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

