# Anyone own (or have owned) both El Primero 36,000 and the Speedmaster?



## BigAl085 (Nov 9, 2011)

To be honest, I'm leaning towards the Speedmaster Professional 3570 at this point purely from a design standpoint (I feel like both movements have withstood the test of time and are both held in high regard). I'm not sure I love the overlapping chrono dials. Does this bother any owners? I've tried the Speedy on and like how it wears and am comfortable with Omega since I've had my 42mm Planet Ocean for a while. On the other hand, the Zenith is an awesome looking timepiece but I've never seen one in the flesh. There isn't as many quality photos or reviews online which makes me a little gun shy on the Zenith.

So back to the title of my post....has anyone owned both? I'd be interested to hear what people had to say about them. Which one they tend to wear more, which seemed more "special", how do they wear, basically anything that comes to mind.

Since I have a dress, dive and GMT, I really want a chrono to be my next purchase. Pictures and opinions welcome!

Thought I'd share a picture of my current collection as well...


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Kind of an interesting post. I own a Speedy Pro and EP Fly-Back from the past.

From an horological viewpoint, the EP certainly wins. Still that wonderful movement! Also, you get a calendar, which I do like.

The Speedy Pro has a fascinating history, of sorts. It has been some time since it had been made with the movement that went to the moon. Even mine has been further adulterated when Omega replaced the plastic piece with a bridge and one additional jewel so that it could be lusted after when adorned in a see-through case back.

They both don't hack, so we are even there.

It depends on my mood. The Speedy Pro is very easy to use. No calendar to set and a nice crown to manual wind it. The EP FB with its setting constraints and need to swirl to wind means when I am in a hurry, I grab the Speedy.

But I really like them both. Below are pics of my two.

Cheers!

Dan


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## tag2012 (Apr 19, 2012)

I've owned both.

From an aesthetics standpoint, I like the design of both watches. I actually prefer the size and look of the SMP more on my wrist.

However, the quality of fit and finish of the EP is in a completely different league compared to the SMP. I've actually had two SMPs, and the dials on both watches were misaligned (the 6 o'clock marker does not match 120 on the tachymeter). I am probably picky but proper alignment is the least I would expect from a "luxury" watch.

On the EP, the large chronograph second hand with the star is simply beautiful. If you also look closely at the hands of the 3 small registers, you will notice that each hand is actually creased along the centerline, whereas most other watches are simply cut out from a flat piece of metal.

Now, the movement. This is where I had the biggest issue with the SMP. Both of my SMPs ran fine when the dial is in up or down positions. However, both (brand new) watches gained 15-20 seconds per day in the crown up and down positions.

My EP on the other hand, runs consistently at about -3 seconds in all positions.


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## BigAl085 (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for the interesting perspectives! Both of your EP's are awesome looking! 

Tag2012: That watch looks great but I would guess the EP wears a little larger since the tachy bezel is part of the large dial instead of the outside on the Speedy. With all the polished bits, it was surprising to hear that you prefer the look of the speedy. I think I'll need to try the Zenith on at some point if I were to be swayed away from the Speedy. I'm just not sure if I want to spend the extra money...I could use the savings to buy some nice new camera lenses! 

However, I do like how the Zenith seems easier to dress up. With the great strap and more polished, case it looks really sharp. Decisions decisions. 

Thanks for pointing out the rate results of the Speedy. I read an article in WatchTime magazine that mirrored your experience. I used to be obsessed with accuracy but I don't keep track of it much anymore. Not worth stressing over it...especially since I'm always rotating them and resetting the time. 

Hopefully we'll see a few other owners chime in. Have a great weekend!


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

I have several Omega Speedmasters and Zenith Primero's. Both are great watches and IMO everybody should have at least one of each. 

BUT I mean the actual historical watches (not the new models), for example a pre-moon Speedmaster with cal. 321 or a vintage Zenith El Primero A384-A385-A386 b-)


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## watchlover70 (Dec 14, 2011)

Al,

I own both and while they both are great pieces the Zenith is in my opinion superior to the Omega. Keep in mind my speedmaster is a manual wind.

*Omega:*















*Zenith:*


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## tag2012 (Apr 19, 2012)

It does wear slightly larger than the SMP. But whether it is "too big" is purely subjective.



BigAl085 said:


> Thanks for the interesting perspectives! Both of your EP's are awesome looking!
> 
> Tag2012: That watch looks great but I would guess the EP wears a little larger since the tachy bezel is part of the large dial instead of the outside on the Speedy. With all the polished bits, it was surprising to hear that you prefer the look of the speedy. I think I'll need to try the Zenith on at some point if I were to be swayed away from the Speedy. I'm just not sure if I want to spend the extra money...I could use the savings to buy some nice new camera lenses!
> 
> ...


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## MMMD (Mar 17, 2012)

sempervivens said:


> I have several Omega Speedmasters and Zenith Primero's. Both are great watches and IMO everybody should have at least one of each.
> 
> BUT I mean the actual historical watches (not the new models), for example a pre-moon Speedmaster with cal. 321 or a vintage Zenith El Primero A384-A385-A386 b-)


I am in agreement with the _idea_ that everyone should have a Speedmaster. But here is my problem... and the reason I might never own a Speedmaster: every time I juice up the watch slush fund to get myself a nice Speedmaster 2998 (I like the dauphine hands), or my second choice, a 105.012, something from Zenith comes up at a similar price-point and outweighs it, _for me_, in terms of quality, rarity, horological importance, etc... most recently that G382. A while back, I had a nice Speedy 105.012 moon-landing moon watch in my sights, but then a Cairelli entered the picture and it was a no-brainer for me. Another thing - I don't know why, but I don't feel any astronaut mojo when I try on an old Speedy Pro - maybe the feeling is diluted by the many other people who have one. But put the Cairelli on my wrist, and I'm ready to fire up the F-104...


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## david ng (Dec 15, 2008)

BigAl085 said:


> To be honest, I'm leaning towards the Speedmaster Professional 3570 at this point purely from a design standpoint (I feel like both movements have withstood the test of time and are both held in high regard). I'm not sure I love the overlapping chrono dials. Does this bother any owners? I've tried the Speedy on and like how it wears and am comfortable with Omega since I've had my 42mm Planet Ocean for a while. On the other hand, the Zenith is an awesome looking timepiece but I've never seen one in the flesh. There isn't as many quality photos or reviews online which makes me a little gun shy on the Zenith.
> 
> So back to the title of my post....has anyone owned both? I'd be interested to hear what people had to say about them. Which one they tend to wear more, which seemed more "special", how do they wear, basically anything that comes to mind.
> 
> ...















I own both. The Zenith is a finer and dressier watch, with its 36,000 beat El Primero that is finished and can be seen from the skeletonized back. Both case and dial have more attention to detail than the Speedmaster. It wears larger at 42 mm than the Speedmaster due to the lack of a bezel. The overlapping subdials take a little getting used to, but is easy to figure out in the right subdial between the 30 and 50 markers, as the red chronograph marker indicates the seconds (and tenths of seconds) quite readily. It is a lovely watch to wear and is of a finer class than the Speedmaster.

The Speedmaster is iconic and there is nothing to add or remove from it's design. It is more of a "tool watch" in comparison to the Zenith. I wear it more often than the Zenith as it lends itself to regular casual wear. I do enjoy winding the watch and appreciating the mechanical nature of it's movement (which cannot be seen on the solid case back of the 3570). I receive regular appreciation from bystanders of the Speedmaster when I wear it.

Both watches are very unique in their nature and have both iconic and historical elements that make it impossible for me to pick a fav.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

MMMD said:


> I am in agreement with the _idea_ that everyone should have a Speedmaster. But here is my problem... and the reason I might never own a Speedmaster: every time I juice up the watch slush fund to get myself a nice Speedmaster 2998 (I like the dauphine hands), or my second choice, a 105.012, something from Zenith comes up at a similar price-point and outweighs it, _for me_, in terms of quality, rarity, horological importance, etc... most recently that G382. A while back, I had a nice Speedy 105.012 moon-landing moon watch in my sights, but then a Cairelli entered the picture and it was a no-brainer for me. Another thing - I don't know why, but I don't feel any astronaut mojo when I try on an old Speedy Pro - maybe the feeling is diluted by the many other people who have one. But put the Cairelli on my wrist, and I'm ready to fire up the F-104...


Interesting in that in all my years of wearing one, I've never run across another Speedy Pro. Of course, that sort of flies in the face of reality given all the versions Omega made, but I am not pulling your leg on not having seen another one.

But you know, I did watch Armstrong come down the ladder that night. I also lived through the saga of Apollo 13. The Speedy has a special place in my life, for me.

Cheers!

Dan


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## MMMD (Mar 17, 2012)

D N Ravenna said:


> Interesting in that in all my years of wearing one, I've never run across another Speedy Pro. Of course, that sort of flies in the face of reality given all the versions Omega made, but I am not pulling your leg on not having seen another one.
> 
> But you know, I did watch Armstrong come down the ladder that night. I also lived through the saga of Apollo 13. The Speedy has a special place in my life, for me.
> 
> ...


There's no denying the historical importance of the Speedy Pro, and its meaning to space, history and watch buffs alike. And, just to keep this relevant to the Zenith forum, I reckon it must have muted the debut of the El Primero a bit. I mean, if I'm in the market for a chronograph for Christmas '69 (or '70 or '71), I'm probably buying a Speedy Pro no matter what the competition brings. And Omega is still making basically the same model - just check your local mall jeweller - that they made 45 years ago. Heck, I still want the watch that timed that 14-second burn and saved Tom Hanks' bacon.

However... I've heard more than one watchmaker say they'd take an old EP over a 321 for dependability any day... and let's not forget that Armstrong wasn't wearing his Speedy when he took that small step, because... but now I am starting to sound like an Omega-hater, which I'm not, so I won't go on.

Just one more thing...

Dear Buzz: Congress recently passed a law granting astronauts ownership of their "souvenirs" from space missions (except lunar material). If that missing Speedy Pro ever shows up in an old boot or something, please give me a ring before you do something crazy like call the Smithsonian. Best regards, MMMD


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

MMMD;5669550
However... I've heard more than one watchmaker say they'd take an old EP over a 321 for dependability any day... [/QUOTE said:


> That would be a discussion I would like to hear as well. Not because I prefer one model over the other, but because I know how each operates and would love to hear an explanation that an engineer would understand.
> 
> All that said, go forth and buy Zeniths!
> 
> ...


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## MMMD (Mar 17, 2012)

D N Ravenna said:


> That would be a discussion I would like to hear as well. Not because I prefer one model over the other, but because I know how each operates and would love to hear an explanation that an engineer would understand.
> Dan


I don't know the reasoning. Perhaps there is some bias in that they've probably seen many more broken 321's than old EP's, simply because there are many, many more 321's than old EP's in the US.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Various points:

1. For a long time, I never saw a Speedie Pro except for in the shop window. In the last few years, I encountered two: our local vicar (Cal. 861) and the husband of a colleague at work (Cal. 3313). Very chunky things!

2. Technically speaking, Omega no longer make the "real" moon watch. Because the Apollo 11 mission was in 1969 and by that time the Speedie Pro had been converted to the cam system Cal. 861, everyone thought that the moon watch had the Cal. 861. A few years ago, NASA revealed that all NASA watches worn in all moon missions had the Cal. 321. They must have bought up a large stock of Cal. 321 watches soon after it was chosen and used those over the years.....

3. I always though that if the El Primero had been available in 1965 in the US shops, it would have given the Speedie Pro a damn hard run for its cash!!!

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

1. Zenith was never tested by the NASA as it was probably not available in the local jeweller's shop.

2. can we stop using these numbers

3. Omega cal. 861 was also used during one of the later missions

4. Neil Armstrong was an impressive civilian who landed on the moon in the Eagle with his 1966 Speedmaster Professional . He then left his Speedmaster in the Eagle as it was the most important back-up clock for the mission since the Eagle's on-board clock was not functioning well. But since he wore his Speedmaster in the Eagle, and the Eagle was on the moon, it is a fact that Neil Armstrong did wear his Speedmaster on the moon. 

5. Buzz Aldrin was also there but lost his watch back on earth. All that is certain is that it was a cal. 321 as well 

Of course the El Primero is a different thing from a Speedmaster. 

If you have to choose only one of course you should go for the Zenith El Primero, which is a chronometer movement, automatic and with date.

In the original El Primero the date was placed in an elegant position between 4 and 5, leaving space for the three perfectly positioned subdials of the watch.

In newer models this is lost due to the repositioning of the date at 6 o'clock, thus limiting the space for the subdials. Still, they could have solved this in other ways, but no, they let one subdial partially cover another.

conclusion: the original 1970's Zenith El Primero remains the best.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

sempervivens said:


> 1. Zenith was never tested by the NASA as it was probably not available in the local jeweller's shop.


Luck is a fickle thing, ain't it?

;-)

I really like both, so I would advocate getting both.

Dan


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

Hartmut Richter said:


> 3. I always though that if the El Primero had been available in 1965 in the US shops, it would have given the Speedie Pro a damn hard run for its cash!!!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Good heavens, if it were available in 1965 it would have stomped the Speedy into tiny little pieces. It does that today.


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## Fantasio (Apr 5, 2009)

I haven't owned both, but was considering also Speedmaster when planning which chrono to get. Finally went for EP because in many ways it felt better for me, still wouldn't mind owning a Speedy Pro also. :-d

Some new models have date in the "right" position between 4 and 5. ;-)



sempervivens said:


> In newer models this is lost due to the repositioning of the date at 6 o'clock, thus limiting the space for the subdials.


Subdials could have been indeed executed better, but in the end overlap was not a deal breaker for me. All competing watches had some issue which wasn't perfect in my opinion, and this was one I can live with.



sempervivens said:


> Still, they could have solved this in other ways, but no, they let one subdial partially cover another.


Can't disagree, but original A386 in good condition is hard to find and they certainly don't come cheap. So I settled for next best substitute, no regrets so far.



sempervivens said:


> conclusion: the original 1970's Zenith El Primero remains the best.


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

.






My watch collecting is old school. Most are 70's era. What lead to the purchase of an Omega for me was that my science teacher wore one. I never forgot the name. I started with the Flightmaster. Excellent history and unique which scores looks. Top notch in quality. I like anything that has to do with flight/airplanes/watches. 
My Speedmaster, while not a modern pro is still one really cool lookin watch. Very high quality in construction/timing. I chose this one for its colors, and how it reminds me of WW2 era watch dials
The 36,000 is how i ended up becoming a WUS member. Best watch i ever bought. 31


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

I thought long and hard about getting the one in your first picture. I forget what movement it had in it (Lemania at that time??? but from the looks a 7751), but I am sorry I never did get it.

Thanks for the pics!

Dan


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