# Defy Inventor No Longer Available?



## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

I was just on the US website and when I went to look up the Defy Inventor it was gone from the Defy lineup. Anyone have information as to what happened? It looks like its no longer for sale.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

palletwheel said:


> I was just on the US website and when I went to look up the Defy Inventor it was gone from the Defy lineup. Anyone have information as to what happened? It looks like its no longer for sale.


Wasn't the inventor a ten piece collection? They might have removed it due to inquires but that's odd.


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## dpn (Feb 9, 2011)

I think the Zenith Defy Lab was a very limited series of 10 watches, but that the subsequent Zenith Defy Inventor was an open release ... although I’m sure they weren’t cranking out that many.

I’ve got to say that, in my opinion, it’s an absolutely fascinating technological advance that would be unwearable for me with an open worked dial. I thought it was migraine-inducing to look at, and also really didn’t like the look of the aeronith bezel/case.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I really do hope that they haven't scrapped that movement altogether. It's OK to stop the watch line but they should really invest more in that escapement the way that Omega did with the coaxial escapement. It would set them apart from all the others and give them supremacy in the field of accuracy that would be very hard to beat with a mechanical movement.

Hartmut Richter


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

Has anyone tried reaching out to Switzerland?


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

JacobC said:


> Has anyone tried reaching out to Switzerland?


Not as far as I know. Ernie Romers (site founder) had very good contacts at Zenith but since he has practically retired from the forum, we haven't really had any inside information. Maybe the two forum sponsors know a little more.....

Hartmut Richter


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## AMBIORIX (Apr 24, 2006)

Hello gentlemen,
The Defy-lab were 10 prototypes who were sold .
The Inventor is an updated version of the mouvement , not limited, but production is very low.
Zenith explained me that producing the oscilator can be compared with high horology, especialy because the production is semi-"industrial" and complicated.
It is still available as far as i know. With a special 25 limited edition for a japanese retailer Yoshida( gorgeous!!!) launched in 2020.
If you want something very special and you can get one, go for it.
Grtz,Dom


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

AMBIORIX said:


> Hello gentlemen,
> The Defy-lab were 10 prototypes who were sold .
> The Inventor is an updated version of the mouvement , not limited, but production is very low.
> Zenith explained me that producing the oscilator can be compared with high horology, especialy because the production is semi-"industrial" and complicated.
> ...


I know ADs have stock, but I guess the question is once they sell out is that it? If they stopped production I'd hesitate to buy one since it's hard to tell what ongoing support it will get.


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## AMBIORIX (Apr 24, 2006)

Zenith has an excellent after-sales departement.So they wil always service their watches.
I don't think they stop production after investing this much
Grtz,Dom


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

palletwheel said:


> I know ADs have stock, but I guess the question is once they sell out is that it? If they stopped production I'd hesitate to buy one since it's hard to tell what ongoing support it will get.


It's Zenith, I'm not worried they won't be able to make parts. If they weren't under Swatch maybe but I just don't see it being an issue.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

JacobC said:


> It's Zenith, I'm not worried they won't be able to make parts. If they weren't under Swatch maybe but I just don't see it being an issue.


Oh, I'm not worried about parts availability, I'm more worried about them using the parts to get it working right when it needs to go back for service. Many of us on this forum worry enough over them getting a regular El Primero done right when it has to go back, and at least for that you can find independents if you prefer, but what about a very exotic discontinued watch only they can service over the course of many years? I really hope they seriously attack the servicing issues globally over the coming years. At the very least I'd like the option of being able to send them back to Switzerland regardless of where you live.

BTW, just a correction, they are under LVMH, not Swatch. But I personally think that Zenith will continue to survive. They do need to simplify their catalog a bit, and I have a feeling that's what's starting to happen.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

AMBIORIX said:


> Zenith has an excellent after-sales departement.


I wish I could share that sentiment, but I'm looking at a central seconds hand on my vintage A384 that the Zenith service centre couldn't be bothered to align properly despite being sent in twice. Also, the hours don't reset to zero unless I shove the pusher hard to move the hand back manually (something which it seems Zenith considers normal for the Defy 21 movement, as reported by other forum members). I just put up with the issues in my A384 because I don't trust them to fix it properly. In my opinion Zenith's quality of service has much room for improvement and is not a strength for the brand currently.

As for the Lab, I think it's an amazing movement and expect that they are just taking some time to focus on the launch of the caliber 3600 models. We'll probably see more Labs in late 2020 or maybe 2021. Will it be viable to own the Lab, Defy 21, 3600 or other Zenith innovations? I think the industry as a whole has a problem with producing a lot of exotic new technologies which risk not having a long term commitment from the companies that release them. Sure the brands may continue to exist, they will probably have parts, servicing may be offered (though at a high cost). But will they ever be quality products? Zenith's service has not inspired my confidence.


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## AMBIORIX (Apr 24, 2006)

Sad to hear about your experience!
grtz,Dom


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

Hi everyone, I have an Inventor and it's been quite a journey with this watch!

Based on my experience, Zenith discovered a number of issues around the timekeeping accuracy of this new movement after they started shipping. I had to send mine back and it was in Switzerland for months while they tried to correct the issues.

As it's been explained to me, they needed to completely disassemble, swap certain parts with newly engineered ones, and then rebuild the movement. 

I don't think there are many of these in the wild. Zenith won't say. I think Zenith halted production and this tech will reappear in a different watch down the road. But it won't be called Inventor.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

neptunepic said:


> Hi everyone, I have an Inventor and it's been quite a journey with this watch!
> 
> Based on my experience, Zenith discovered a number of issues around the timekeeping accuracy of this new movement after they started shipping. I had to send mine back and it was in Switzerland for months while they tried to correct the issues.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your experience. Much as I love Zenith watches, I am very concerned about the viability and serviceability of the new technologies that they're putting out.

Your case further supports something that Peter Speake said about companies putting out improperly validated movements that customers became beta testers for. Here's a link to the full story:
What's your after-service return rate? Does it always...

This is what happened to me with my IWC Big Pilot with an early caliber 5000 series. They launched with a single spring barrel, then were forced to switch to two in future versions due to poor timekeeping, plus change certain Pelaton winding parts.

When you purchased the Defy Inventor, did Zenith discuss with you any prospect of trialing the watch and maintaining contact to share technical and performance details? I figured that since the Inventor had such a limited run it was designed as something of a test. So that's maybe not as bad as doing a full launch of a faulty movement then gradually swapping parts as failed watches came in to servicing (which seems to be the common practice in the industry).


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

No, there was no such disclaimer or even mention made by Zenith about the watch not being ready for prime-time or me being a guinea pig for their new tech.
I convinced them to extend the warranty on my piece due to the problems I've had, and in fact I'm still waiting (after many months) for a written confirmation of the timekeeping accuracy certification. They originally claimed every unit was certified by TIMELAB, but when I pressed them they admitted my watch (at least) had not actually been certified by TIMELAB. This kind of certification is pretty standard for a luxury timepiece. I asked them to provide me with proof of certification from WHEREVER they had it tested, and I've been hearing crickets ever since.

Luckily my dealer is also hounding them, but honestly I'm not impressed with the after sales service so far. It really shouldn't be this difficult to get basic details like these for a "high-end" watch.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> No, there was no such disclaimer or even mention made by Zenith about the watch not being ready for prime-time or me being a guinea pig for their new tech.
> I convinced them to extend the warranty on my piece due to the problems I've had, and in fact I'm still waiting (after many months) for a written confirmation of the timekeeping accuracy certification. They originally claimed every unit was certified by TIMELAB, but when I pressed them they admitted my watch (at least) had not actually been certified by TIMELAB. This kind of certification is pretty standard for a luxury timepiece. I asked them to provide me with proof of certification from WHEREVER they had it tested, and I've been hearing crickets ever since.
> 
> Luckily my dealer is also hounding them, but honestly I'm not impressed with the after sales service so far. It really shouldn't be this difficult to get basic details like these for a "high-end" watch.


I'd be very appreciative if you could please tell us what problems you had with the watch in more detail. What kind of timekeeping issues did you observe? I am deeply curious about this movement and to hear in detail real world experience would be great.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

palletwheel said:


> I'd be very appreciative if you could please tell us what problems you had with the watch in more detail. What kind of timekeeping issues did you observe? I am deeply curious about this movement and to hear in detail real world experience would be great.


Personally my biggest issue has been Zenith's lack of transparency regarding the timekeeping accuracy. They made bold claims early on about accuracy being within 0.5secs/day. Then they removed that spec from their materials. Then they added TIMELAB chronometer certification to their marketing. Now they're saying at least my watch did not get certified by TIMELAB. I can't get a straight answer.

In my testing the accuracy of this watch is probably within COSC specs after the repairs they did, but nowhere near 0.5secs/day. Not even close to Rolex's 2secs/day.

At these price points it should be common practice to certify and publish accuracy data. Zenith has still not done so for this watch.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

That's crazy. I had an unpleasant experience getting my vintage A384 serviced in Le Locle (at least that's where they told me it went), but at least it's running at less than +1 seconds per 24 hours, which is pretty amazing for a fifty year old watch. I would have though they could achieve that with the Inventor.

I do see that the articles on this watch mention the chronometer certification by Timelab.
Introducing: The Zenith Defy Inventor, The Next Evolution Of The Zenith Oscillator - HODINKEE
Zenith - Defy Inventor | Elite Traveler

They do lack transparency. I asked them why my twelve hour subdial wouldn't reset to zero properly under the force of the spring rather than having to force it back to zero by pressing in the pusher all the way, and they just said "that's the best we could do". Nothing like "we lubricated it properly, but the reset hammer has an issue and would have to be replaced with a new part, which we don't recommend for this vintage model", or some other real explanation. Just "that's the best we can do".

I wonder how the new Frederic Constant high frequency silicon escapement will perform? It seems smaller and less complex than the Zenith tech.

Kudos to you for disclosing all this. I think many collectors and owners just try to pass on their pieces without making too much of a fuss for fear of loosing value when selling the piece. Personally I like to be transparent about my experiences and have posted about various issues with watches I own. I find that selling online with full disclosure of the issues tends to lead to prices that are as good as any shorter write-ups (though I do hope you'll keep the Inventor and that Zentih sorts things out in the long run).


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> Personally my biggest issue has been Zenith's lack of transparency regarding the timekeeping accuracy. They made bold claims early on about accuracy being within 0.5secs/day. Then they removed that spec from their materials. Then they added TIMELAB chronometer certification to their marketing. Now they're saying at least my watch did not get certified by TIMELAB. I can't get a straight answer.
> 
> In my testing the accuracy of this watch is probably within COSC specs after the repairs they did, but nowhere near 0.5secs/day. Not even close to Rolex's 2secs/day.
> 
> At these price points it should be common practice to certify and publish accuracy data. Zenith has still not done so for this watch.


Well, at least this answers the question why this is no longer available. They have no right to do this. When one buys this kind of thing one understands one is part of an adventure, but this is just irresponsible, it's like they really just unleashed a lab creature into the wild. Thanks for your response and please keep us posted.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

Well mark my words, I will get the certification info from them. If they didn't certify it at all, I'll find that out too, and then they'll really have a problem.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

WTSP said:


> I wonder how the new Frederic Constant high frequency silicon escapement will perform? It seems smaller and less complex than the Zenith tech.


They are claiming no better than COSC spec for their watch. After this discussion now I know why. If this is the best they can do, then these oscillators are pointless tech. Or, at the very least, they should wait until they show some meaningful promise. To try to prematurely recoup development costs before the tech shows some meaningful promise is, to put it mildly, disrespectful and distasteful.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> Well mark my words, I will get the certification info from them. If they didn't certify it at all, I'll find that out too, and then they'll really have a problem.


I hate to upset you, but it could have failed the Timelab tests, which may be why you don't hear anything back. Unless you are attached to this watch, which is fair if you are ultimately having fun with the experiment failed or not, I might suggest you try to get a refund or at least full MSRP credit for another watch.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

I'm no expert in this area, but my impression is that when movements fail their certification, they are either re-worked or totally withdrawn from circulation. At least that's what would happen with a standard COSC certified movement going into a watch with "chronometer" printed on it and accompanied by a certificate.

Based on movement pics, it seems that "certified chronometer" is written on the rotor.










Neptunepic, did you receive Timelab papers similar to these COSC examples?


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

Hi @WTSP, no I have not received any paperwork for the certification. I have requested it several times. So far, I've received nothing. I keep asking the dealer for help and they've also tried reaching out to Zenith, but thus far no satisfactory response. One would assume that if the watch was in fact certified as they claim, it would be very easy for them to provide documentation to support the claim.

FYI the rotor on my Inventor does NOT say "certified chronometer" on it. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the rotor prior to it being sent back to Switzerland for service, so I guess it's possible they replaced the rotor? Is the picture you posted from a Defy Inventor?

Here's what my rotor looks like after being returned from Switzerland.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

palletwheel said:


> I hate to upset you, but it could have failed the Timelab tests, which may be why you don't hear anything back. Unless you are attached to this watch, which is fair if you are ultimately having fun with the experiment failed or not, I might suggest you try to get a refund or at least full MSRP credit for another watch.


In lieu of a straight answer from Zenith, my next step will likely be to request they take back the watch for a full refund.
Honestly the complete lack of transparency and radio silence from Zenith is not what anyone should expect from a luxury watch brand.
I'm extremely disappointed and this experience certainly erodes my trust in the brand, and I'd likely never buy one of their pieces again.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

neptunepic said:


> FYI the rotor on my Inventor does NOT say "certified chronometer" on it. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the rotor prior to it being sent back to Switzerland for service, so I guess it's possible they replaced the rotor? Is the picture you posted from a Defy Inventor?


Yes, the photo I posted was from an Inventor featured on Ablogtowatch.
Zenith Defy Inventor 18Hz Watch Hands-On | aBlogtoWatch

This is all pretty disappointing. You have my sympathy as a Zenith fan and fellow collector. I hope this somehow has a good ending for you. I totally understand ditching a brand that presents you with a fiasco though.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> In lieu of a straight answer from Zenith, my next step will likely be to request they take back the watch for a full refund.
> Honestly the complete lack of transparency and radio silence from Zenith is not what anyone should expect from a luxury watch brand.
> I'm extremely disappointed and this experience certainly erodes my trust in the brand, and I'd likely never buy one of their pieces again.


I can't find the thread, but some poor soul had his Zenith lost in transit coming back from service. Zenith did not insure the package for *his* full replacement cost but on their's. His insurance would only pay out based on the watch being broken, as it had gone to service, which of course was nonsense as it was coming _back_ from service. So he was double screwed, by Zenith and his insurance. Zenith would only offer him credit for any new in production watch for their insured amount. The point of relating this sorry tale? I would not expect my money back but MSRP for a new watch. Maybe the AD can turn that into credit on his end for anything he carries.

One thing I have found about most luxury purveyors is that they are cheap. They make every effort to make you feel "special", coaxing you to spend money like a drunken sailor and and feel unimportant if you don't. But get them to spend money on you when something goes wrong? OZ like, you will find a cheap bastard behind the curtain. That's why I laugh over the "prestige" of owning anything, and just get on about buying what I like and make no fuss about it.

All that said, I'm enjoying my A384 Revival piece immensely. Its just great, period. Fit, finish, movement runs really well. Overall I think everyone on this forum has had a great experience with their old 400 El Primero movement and the quality of their classic line. So the good news at the end. While I have no doubt all this leaves a bad taste in your mouth, if you are stuck having to do an exchange, get one of these and it will work out in the end. Zenith does do some things really well, service sadly overall not one of them, but when it comes to the 400 movement, lots of independents can service it, you don't have to rely on Zenith.

One last comment, based on my experience over the years. When any manufacture comes out with a new movement, wait about 5 years before purchasing to see how it goes and get the bugs out. When it comes to mechanical watches it really does take that long to figure out if you have a lemmon of a design or not. The problem you are having is not limited to Zenith in this regard, but the entire industry. They *all* do this crap. Case in point: Rolex 32xx series watches are having some mysterious problem where a goodly portion have their seconds pinion chew up at around the 18 month point of ownership. No one knows why, Rolex won't say anything, people just send them back to get fixed only in some cases to happen again. Head shaking I know. So the moral of the story? When you buy, hold off on new technology until you can see it proven, read a lot about people's real life experiences with a watch and then make a purchase decision. Thank you for posting your experience, for what it's worth you helped out a lot of people.






32xx movement problem poll and data thread - Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum


32xx movement problem poll and data thread Rolex General Discussion



www.rolexforums.com


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

@palletwheel Thanks for your response. It's a very frustrating situation to be sure, and it's comforting to know I'm not the only person having issues like this. But honestly that doesn't make it ok, and I wish the manufacturers collectively would be more transparent with their customers. My experience has soured me on Zenith as a brand, and I'd imagine that's not a great business strategy. The only good news is that Zenith agreed to extend the warranty to 5 years from the normal 3, but frankly that doesn't provide much comfort to me. Everything that's transpired thus far has only ensured that I will be an extremely vocal critic of theirs for a long time to come. I buy watches to enjoy them, not to be an unwitting beta tester. And I can promise that if they continue to be unwilling to provide the proper paperwork for the chronometer certification they advertised, there will be a full refund in my future.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

palletwheel's description is also nothing new to me. When Omega brought out their co-axial watches, they started putting them into the ETA 2892 movement (Cal. 2500 series). The worst thing they could do: the movement is famous for being extra slim (3.5mm) but this doesn't really give you any options in the area of the escapement for e.g. putting in a Breguet hairspring - or a co-axial escapement! They had to make compromises in the number of levels on the co-axial lever (requires three, had to make to with two so that on level had to fulfil two roles) which, as far as I heard, led to more seizures, i.e. watches just stopping out of the blue. They had to develop their own movement (Cal. 8500 series) which was specifically designed around the escapement before all these problems could be fixed.

As for chronometre certificates, I have one for my ChronoMaster EP - but that was first sold in 1996 at a time when Zenith handed these thigs out. As far as I know, Rolex hasn't given them out in decades (another lousy trend set by the big R, alongside not releasing replacement parts to independent watchmakers) and Zenith has (sadly) followed suit. You only get a piece of paper stating that it has been tested.

Hartmut Richter


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

@Hartmut Richter I would be satisfied with confirmation that it's been tested, but zenith hasn't even provided that. The last corespondence I received from zenith was they were working on getting the testing info for me. That was 2 months ago. 2 months. That's just unacceptable. Either it was tested or it wasn't. Refusing to answer just taints their reputation, and the longer they stall, the worse they make themselves look.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> @palletwheel Thanks for your response. It's a very frustrating situation to be sure, and it's comforting to know I'm not the only person having issues like this. But honestly that doesn't make it ok, and I wish the manufacturers collectively would be more transparent with their customers. My experience has soured me on Zenith as a brand, and I'd imagine that's not a great business strategy. The only good news is that Zenith agreed to extend the warranty to 5 years from the normal 3, but frankly that doesn't provide much comfort to me. Everything that's transpired thus far has only ensured that I will be an extremely vocal critic of theirs for a long time to come. I buy watches to enjoy them, not to be an unwitting beta tester. And I can promise that if they continue to be unwilling to provide the proper paperwork for the chronometer certification they advertised, there will be a full refund in my future.


From what you are describing I don't believe the movement can qualify as a chronometer. If it could they would have done it already. And I fully agree it's not OK. I wish you good luck in getting your money back, but if that turns out to be too big a lift, don't aggravate yourself. While the AD and Zenith may be loath to part with money there are good odds one or both would try to make things right with another watch. And if you can work with your AD to buy something completely different from him that you'll really like, hopefully that will take the sting out of this.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

Hartmut Richter said:


> palletwheel's description is also nothing new to me. When Omega brought out their co-axial watches, they started putting them into the ETA 2892 movement (Cal. 2500 series). The worst thing they could do: the movement is famous for being extra slim (3.5mm) but this doesn't really give you any options in the area of the escapement for e.g. putting in a Breguet hairspring - or a co-axial escapement! They had to make compromises in the number of levels on the co-axial lever (requires three, had to make to with two so that on level had to fulfil two roles) which, as far as I heard, led to more seizures, i.e. watches just stopping out of the blue. They had to develop their own movement (Cal. 8500 series) which was specifically designed around the escapement before all these problems could be fixed.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I had an Aqua Terra with a 2500C movement in it. The Series A and B had problems, but when they put out the Series C it was a winner. I loved that watch and only sold it recently since I found that I wasn't as active anymore and so constantly winding it would lead to stripping the threads on the screw down crown tube. I am also not a fan of watch winders too.

It did take about 5 years before the Series C came out. When the Series 8500 came out there were problems with the barrel DLC coating. It also didn't keep as good time as the 2500C, and it was only the addition of a silicon balance spring that made it a great timekeeper, as has become the case for all modern watches sadly. Technology has replaced craftsmanship, for better and worse.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

palletwheel said:


> I can't find the thread, but some poor soul had his Zenith lost in transit coming back from service. Zenith did not insure the package for *his* full replacement cost but on their's. His insurance would only pay out based on the watch being broken, as it had gone to service, which of course was nonsense as it was coming _back_ from service. So he was double screwed, by Zenith and his insurance. Zenith would only offer him credit for any new in production watch for their insured amount. The point of relating this sorry tale? I would not expect my money back but MSRP for a new watch. Maybe the AD can turn that into credit on his end for anything he carries.
> 
> One thing I have found about most luxury purveyors is that they are cheap. They make every effort to make you feel "special", coaxing you to spend money like a drunken sailor and and feel unimportant if you don't. But get them to spend money on you when something goes wrong? OZ like, you will find a cheap bastard behind the curtain. That's why I laugh over the "prestige" of owning anything, and just get on about buying what I like and make no fuss about it.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more in everything you've posted. I think this is the thread that your were referring to. It turns out that buying one of Zenith's more expensive pieces is no protection against poor treatment.
FedEx lost my watch -need some advice


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

The Defy Inventor is being mentioned in the Ablogtowatch Superlative podcast. Apparently the guest, Rikki from The Scottish Watches Podcast, says he paid a deposit and decided to cancel over a year later after never receiving the watch. Apparently Zenith quietly made the line disappear. Ariel Adams mentions that his understanding is that there were two major engineering problems they couldn't overcome:
1) The watch could work in a resting position, but no decent shock absorption could be developed for daily wear. As such, it was fragile.
2) They couldn't produce the parts in a large volume economically. Apparently JC Biver pushed the R&D for silicon and the Zenith oscillator, but once he left nobody wanted to stake their careers into continuing to spend on the new escapement.
Superlative - SUPERLATIVE: INTERVIEW WITH RIKKI FROM THE SCOTTISH WATCHES PODCAST - PART 1 OF 2
(39 minutes in)


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

Hartmut Richter said:


> palletwheel's description is also nothing new to me. When Omega brought out their co-axial watches, they started putting them into the ETA 2892 movement (Cal. 2500 series). The worst thing they could do: the movement is famous for being extra slim (3.5mm) but this doesn't really give you any options in the area of the escapement for e.g. putting in a Breguet hairspring - or a co-axial escapement! They had to make compromises in the number of levels on the co-axial lever (requires three, had to make to with two so that on level had to fulfil two roles) which, as far as I heard, led to more seizures, i.e. watches just stopping out of the blue. They had to develop their own movement (Cal. 8500 series) which was specifically designed around the escapement before all these problems could be fixed.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


There are a few inaccuracies in your post. First, the Cal. 2500 is not based directly on the ETA 2892A2, which is 3.6 mm thick. It was based on the Omega Cal. 1120, which was 3.9 mm thick, so already thicker than the 2892. While the 1120 is based on the 2892 there are a number of changes from the 2892 to the 1120, and many parts on these movements are not interchangeable.

Initially the 2 level co-axial escapement was put in, so yes that is correct. This was a design made by George Daniels when he was trying to sell this to other companies who said the design was too thick. The 2500 is 4.1 mm thick, so the addition of the co-axial escapement and free spring balance did make the movement slightly thicker.

The statement that Omega had to design the 8500 to fit in the 3 level escapement is simply not true. The Omega 2500 D and E both use the 3 level escapement, and the movement is still 4.1 mm thick.

Cheers, Al


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

WTSP said:


> The Defy Inventor is being mentioned in the Ablogtowatch Superlative podcast. Apparently the guest, Rikki from The Scottish Watches Podcast, says he paid a deposit and decided to cancel over a year later after never receiving the watch. Apparently Zenith quietly made the line disappear. Ariel Adams mentions that his understanding is that there were two major engineering problems they couldn't overcome:
> 1) The watch could work in a resting position, but no decent shock absorption could be developed for daily wear. As such, it was fragile.
> 2) They couldn't produce the parts in a large volume economically. Apparently JC Biver pushed the R&D for silicon and the Zenith oscillator, but once he left nobody wanted to stake their careers into continuing to spend on the new escapement.
> Superlative - SUPERLATIVE: INTERVIEW WITH RIKKI FROM THE SCOTTISH WATCHES PODCAST - PART 1 OF 2


Thanks for this!
Do you know approx when the Inventor is mentioned during the podcast?


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

neptunepic said:


> Thanks for this!
> Do you know approx when the Inventor is mentioned during the podcast?


Oops, I meant to put that. It's a little after 39 minutes in.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

Well, for those who are game for owning a historical artifact, Cellini has one for sale. I bet they're open to a deal 









Defy Inventor | Zenith | Cellini Jewelers


Cellini Jewelers carries the Zenith Defy Inventor men's luxury watch in titanium with Aeronith bezel. Visit Cellini in New York City at 430 Park Avenue, or shop online at www.cellinijewelers.com.




www.cellinijewelers.com


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

WTSP said:


> The Defy Inventor is being mentioned in the Ablogtowatch Superlative podcast. Apparently the guest, Rikki from The Scottish Watches Podcast, says he paid a deposit and decided to cancel over a year later after never receiving the watch. Apparently Zenith quietly made the line disappear. Ariel Adams mentions that his understanding is that there were two major engineering problems they couldn't overcome:
> 1) The watch could work in a resting position, but no decent shock absorption could be developed for daily wear. As such, it was fragile.
> 2) They couldn't produce the parts in a large volume economically. Apparently JC Biver pushed the R&D for silicon and the Zenith oscillator, but once he left nobody wanted to stake their careers into continuing to spend on the new escapement.
> Superlative - SUPERLATIVE: INTERVIEW WITH RIKKI FROM THE SCOTTISH WATCHES PODCAST - PART 1 OF 2
> (39 minutes in)


Actually it is a pretty sad tale of corporate malfeasance. In order to please their boss and keep their jobs instead of acting like responsible owners they acted instead like bureaucrats and ignored profoundly serious issues with the movement and let people buy them. If this was about aeroplanes instead of luxury watches it would have made the news. Instead poor folks like @neptunepic are given shoddy goods and the runaround. Hopefully he can get his money back. This doesn't inspire me about the brand, and I'd probably wait a long while before I'd buy a chronomaster with the new 1/10th feature. How much is the stress of that central hand whipping around over the course of years going to impact the reliability of the movement?


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

palletwheel said:


> Actually it is a pretty sad tale of corporate malfeasance. In order to please their boss and keep their jobs instead of acting like responsible owners they acted instead like bureaucrats and ignored profoundly serious issues with the movement and let people buy them. If this was about aeroplanes instead of luxury watches it would have made the news. Instead poor folks like @neptunepic are given shoddy goods and the runaround. Hopefully he can get his money back. This doesn't inspire me about the brand, and I'd probably wait a long while before I'd buy a chronomaster with the new 1/10th feature. How much is the stress of that central hand whipping around over the course of years going to impact the reliability of the movement?


I totally agree. Omega had those performance issues with the caliber 2500 C. Tudor had its GMT date wheel thing. Tag Heuer's big controversy was using a Seiko base and calling it an in-house caliber. However, if this Defy Inventor situation is as described by neptunepic, Ariel Adams and Rikki of Scotting Watches, it would be worse than any of the controversies above IMO. Rikki describes having paid a deposit on an Inventor and waiting for over a year without news. He was the one to request the cancellation of the transaction, rather than Zenith or his AD being proactive and informing him that the watch could no longer be made available.

I also totally agree about your assessment of the caliber 3600. Personally, I'm going to wait five years or more before purchasing any of Zenith's new technologies.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

palletwheel said:


> Well, for those who are game for owning a historical artifact, Cellini has one for sale. I bet they're open to a deal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd be shocked if Cellini has the Inventor in stock. If you contact them I'm confident they won't. Zenith has pulled all inventory from the market.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> I'd be shocked if Cellini has the Inventor in stock. If you contact them I'm confident they won't. Zenith has pulled all inventory from the market.


Please forgive the lengthy response, but its another opportunity to discuss this from a different perspective.

Collectors are a weird bunch and watch collectors are no exception. While I may have gone on about "corporate malfeasance", that's from the perspective of a typical consumer trusting in a company who expects to buy something that works. However, from a watch collector's point of view this watch represents a unique horological object. Yes, it's a failure, but does it presage a new horlogical future? Is it a technical dead end that may point the way to something superior? The history of horology is littered with such failed curiosities, which makes them no less interesting. Yes this watch is fragile, you can't really wear it, you may not get any sympathy or support down the line from Zenith and so on, but if one is the kind of collector who is piqued by these kinds of curiosities, you will want one regardless of the hazards.

Cellini caters to this kind of collector. They have some mortal down to earth things to keep the cash flow going, but high end horological curiosities by low production independents has always been what they are about. So their website is current and regularly updated. If its on the website, it's most likely there unless it sold before the most recent update. They are also Zenith's largest AD in the US. So if they want to keep this for their type of clientele, I guarantee you Zenith won't argue with them.

My final point is to encourage you not to aggravate yourself. Decide if you want to approach this from a typical consumer point of view, or a high end watch collectors point of view. If the former, recognize you will never get your chronometer certificate nor the kind of long term support you would expect, so getting every penny back from your AD might be your best bet. If you like the idea of owning a horological curiosity, treat it as the fragile thing it is and appreciated it for what it is.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

I buy watches to wear and enjoy them, not look at them through a glass case. I can go to Rodeo Drive or a watch show if I want that experience.
I'll be getting my money back from the AD. I doubt Zenith will reimburse the AD which, for me, says enough about the brand that it's unlikely I'll buy anything from them again.
Zenith is not the only watch manufacturer to release a product that fails, but the way they've handled the situation is unacceptable in my view. They were happy to overcommunicate how amazing their tech was and how it would transform the watch industry. They spent A LOT of money marketing the product and touting it's accuracy, durability etc. But when the rubber met the road, they drove into a ditch and fled the scene of the crash.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> I buy watches to wear and enjoy them, not look at them through a glass case. I can go to Rodeo Drive or a watch show if I want that experience.
> I'll be getting my money back from the AD. I doubt Zenith will reimburse the AD which, for me, says enough about the brand that it's unlikely I'll buy anything from them again.
> Zenith is not the only watch manufacturer to release a product that fails, but the way they've handled the situation is unacceptable in my view. They were happy to overcommunicate how amazing their tech was and how it would transform the watch industry. They spent A LOT of money marketing the product and touting it's accuracy, durability etc. But when the rubber met the road, they drove into a ditch and fled the scene of the crash.


Glad to hear you'll get your money back. See if you can find out from the AD how Zenith will treat them. As discussed keep in mind this is an industry wide problem with new releases, though this may be the worst example I've seen since Zenith can't fix the problem. I suggest you follow in future my firm rule, which is never buy a new movement, wait a few years to see how it behaves and get the inevitable fixes. As much as I love watches, I find it's overall the most infuriating consumer good one can buy. Even when buying something tried and true, I still breathe a sigh of relief after about a week when I know my new purchase actually works.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

I agree that this sort of issue isn't specific to Zenith. Peter Speake says as much here:
What's your after-service return rate? Does it always...

I basically had a similar (though less serious) issue with my IWC Big Pilot. The early version of the 5000 caliber has a single spring barrel. It runs for seven days but in all IWC's marketing literature they kept saying "it could run for eight but we cut it off at seven to ensure exemplary precision" and add all this BS about how great the movement is. The truth was that the single spring barrel produces results that vary from +30 to -30 sec/day at various winding levels (days remaining in the power reserved). They replaced the old version with a dual spring barrel which I believe performs better. That leaves me with a subpar watch. I'm going to hang onto it, but it's irritating and has negatively influenced my perception of IWC's movement design capabilities.

There were also other issues with the winding system:
IWC 5000 calibre details


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I wonder to what extent this escapement is so fragile and doesn't perform as well as advertised when Frederique Constant are marketing it - at an even higher beat rate than Zenith!









Unique, technical, Monolithic: Only Watch 2021, Frederique Constant unveils its Highlife Monolithic Manufacture


Frederique Constant is pleased to announce its participation to the 2021 edition of the Only Watch auction, which will take place on November 6th, 2021, and for which the proceeds will be donated to the Monegasque Association against Muscular Dystrophy. This year, Frederique Constant is...




frederiqueconstant.com





Maybe FC are in for a nasty surprise or maybe Zenith didn't do their homework or invested too little in the development of the movement this time round?!

Hartmut Richter


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

As I understand it, FC's implementation is very different from Zenith's.
FC worked to incorporate their high frequency oscillator in a way that would allow for more standard repair techniques and easier mass production.
At least that's what I've read.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

FC won't guarantee better than COSC specs on the movement. That's not inspiring to me. You can either cynically read this as yet another pointless marketing gimmick that will lead to more disappointed purchasers or the first step of a long journey to replace the quartz movement with something far greener (no batteries, no carbon footprint from electronic manufacturing, though not sure if making this from silicon is any better). The fact that Citizen is funding this offers some hope for the latter interpretation. Truthfully, if I had the money to build up a historical collection of horological invention, I'd pick up this and the Defy Inventor from Cellini to be part of it. At this point, given what we've learned, I'd never consider the FC either for daily wear, at least until my 5 year trial period passed.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

Quick update. I'm returning the Inventor to my dealer for a full refund. The dealer is providing the refund, not Zenith. Even though they've admitted they can't get the watch to work to their advertised specs, they are unwilling to provide a refund. So I'm done with Zenith, probably forever.


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## MichaelKG (Apr 18, 2013)

palletwheel said:


> Many of us on this forum worry enough over them getting a regular El Primero done right when it has to go back


Where can I read more about this? Is it so difficult to service for Zenith?


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## J__D (Feb 15, 2021)

neptunepic said:


> Quick update. I'm returning the Inventor to my dealer for a full refund. The dealer is providing the refund, not Zenith. Even though they've admitted they can't get the watch to work to their advertised specs, they are unwilling to provide a refund. So I'm done with Zenith, probably forever.


Frustrating, good the dealer is helping you out at least


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

I'd name the dealer here since it sounds like they've decided to do the right thing. This community doesn't celebrate that enough.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

MichaelKG said:


> Where can I read more about this? Is it so difficult to service for Zenith?


Here's a good thread:









WCL: Zenith Repair Nightmare


I've read some horror stories on this forum, but this is pretty bad: https://www.watchcollectinglifestyle.com/home/vmh-service-center-turns-the-warranty-repair-of-my-zenith-defy-el-primero-21-into-a-nightmare I having very conflicting thoughts about the company after reading this. It's a lot...




www.watchuseek.com





Zenith US is a particular problem, London and Switzerland are better it seems.

Overall the issue is industry wide, really. WTSP has multiple threads across multiple forums on this, look for his posts.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> Quick update. I'm returning the Inventor to my dealer for a full refund. The dealer is providing the refund, not Zenith. Even though they've admitted they can't get the watch to work to their advertised specs, they are unwilling to provide a refund. So I'm done with Zenith, probably forever.


Very glad the AD is making you whole. Very sad to hear Zenith won't take responsibility. So much for the LVMH "luxury" experience. I've found a great many of these so called luxury brands are quick to make you feel cheap if you don't pony up money, but ask them to do it, no one is home.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

Hey all, I think I'm gonna replace the Inventor with a Cartier Santos. Leaning towards the large black ADLC WSSA0039. Thoughts?


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Personally the Santos styling doesn't appeal to me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I buy weird stuff like Ebel, so I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm not the best person to comment on it. I will say that it's interesting how the black version reverses the typical black numerals on white dial design of most Cartier watches and turns it on its head. It makes for a much more casual watch.

Also, the article below has interesting information about the movement in that model in relation to other Richemont brands.








Panerai In-House Movements – A PAM Of Worms


In my most recent Instagram post, I uncovered a well-guarded secret. The new P.9200 caliber used in Panerai’s recently introduced chronograph family is a basic ETA 2892-A2 with Dubois Dépraz …




perezcope.com


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

Yeah something about the Santos in particular draws me to it. I was in the Cartier boutique and saw the adlc model and it really stood out. The lume on the numerals, markers and hands is also very cool.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

neptunepic said:


> Yeah something about the Santos in particular draws me to it. I was in the Cartier boutique and saw the adlc model and it really stood out. The lume on the numerals, markers and hands is also very cool.


The new blue one is so good looking in person! I support you!


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

WTSP said:


> Personally the Santos styling doesn't appeal to me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I buy weird stuff like Ebel, so I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm not the best person to comment on it. I will say that it's interesting how the black version reverses the typical black numerals on white dial design of most Cartier watches and turns it on its head. It makes for a much more casual watch.
> 
> Also, the article below has interesting information about the movement in that model in relation to other Richemont brands.
> 
> ...


Kind of old news:

"Though it's larger and has a longer power reserve, the BM12-1975A is derived from Cartier's 1847 MC movement, explaining the similarity in components and layout."






SJX Watches







watchesbysjx.com





Richmond had to take away the silicon balance spring because of patent issues and called it BM13-1975A, but since the patent expired the 12 is back. However they haven't sold out the stock with the 13 so beware, check before you buy. The 12 is now their workhorse movement and will go into all their brands, just with different numbers of course. Also that Doubois Daprez chronograph module is infamous, despite being ubiquitous (sadly even Parmigiani uses it in their Tonda Metrographe) it's such a mess to deal with independent watch makers won't service it.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

neptunepic said:


> Hey all, I think I'm gonna replace the Inventor with a Cartier Santos. Leaning towards the large black ADLC WSSA0039. Thoughts?


If you buy a Richemont brand you buy, with a few exceptions like Lange, a ValFleurier movement. The rest is just style. That's the beauty of the thing from a conglomerate point of view, no matter what brand a customer thinks he/she is buying, it's all just Richemont. Richemont servicing is overall more problematic than Swatch, so that's something to keep in mind. I don't know much about the quality of the movement, but I found this old thread, you might want to have a look and do some research first before falling in love, though people seemed happy with it:









Technical specs of Cartier's 1847 MC movement?


Does anyone have a good handle on the technical specs of Cartier's 1847 MC movement (e.g., what kind of balance, whether the balance spring is silicon, etc.)? I've done some research on Google, and although articles about the Cle and the new Santos repeatedly talk about the movement's power...




www.watchuseek.com





I imagine they'll start replacing these with the BM12-1975A at some point, which has got the larger power reserve and better accuracy. So you might want to wait, but the risk is they may discontinue the style.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

Here's an interesting article that points out the monolithic oscillator in the new FC Monolithic Manufacture watches was designed by the same company that designed Zenith's oscillator.

Hopefully they fixed some of the issues that caused the Inventor to fail.









In-Depth: The Silicon-Powered Speed Of The Frederique Constant Slimline Monolithic Manufacture - 40Hz


A major technical breakthrough at a wrist-friendly size.




www.hodinkee.com


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks for that interesting write up. However, it still doesn't answer the question that is probably lurking at the back of all our minds: what will make the FC so successful if the Zenith failed? How did they get round that problem? Or *did* they even get around that problem - or is FC destined to fail too?! 

Hartmut Richter


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

Call me a glutton for punishment but I have an FC on order, so we shall see!


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

You're a brave collector, but I for one certainly appreciate the feedback and information you've provided about these types of products. I'd been eyeing high frequency silicon based escapements for some time, but have yet to make a purchase. I think the technology will probably result in a larger number of watches and models some day, perhaps once the Japanese get involved. Incidentally, Parmigiani hasn't done anything new with their Genequand Senfine escapement watch since 2016.
High frequency silicon based escapements in high end watches

Let us know how the Frederic Constant treats you!


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Yes, I would also be most interested in whether it lives up to expectations. If so, Zenith is definitely letting it slip these days!

Hartmut Richter


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## DesmoIsland (Aug 12, 2016)

palletwheel said:


> I was just on the US website and when I went to look up the Defy Inventor it was gone from the Defy lineup. Anyone have information as to what happened? It looks like its no longer for sale.


They shut down production during Covid, and have not yet started back up. Rumor is that there were still some technical issues to solve before resuming.


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## neptunepic (Jun 27, 2021)

I doubt there will be any more Inventors produced. If they continue with the oscillator technology it will be called something else. They need to distance themselves from the failure of the Inventor.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Check out minutes 42:50 to 44:00.
Spending Time On Teaching Watches Buying 101: Entry Level Timepieces | Listen via Hubhopper


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