# Zenith El Primero HW + Zenith Prime + cal. 420



## sempervivens

Here's an invitation to share everything about the hand-wound versions of the Zenith El Primero chronograph, such as : 

- Pictures of your watch. 


catalog scans if you have them.
your experiences with the Zenith Prime or Zenith El Primero HW (cal. 420 or 420Z).


I'll start off with my stainless steel Zenith Prime.

The case measures 38 mm (without crown), it is 41 mm long including the lugs (lugsize is 20 mm) and approx. 8 mm thick.

The thin bezel allows the dial to take up most of the space and makes it look bigger.

Just like any Zenith El Primero, thanks to it's high frequency (36000 bph) it is an amazingly accurate watch, which easily meets chronometer standards; and yet, thanks to its rugged construction, it can still enjoy a long lasting life.

So, as far as precision and durability are concerned, it is on a par with the automatic El Primero.

Due to the elimination of the automatic winding parts, the hand-wound movement is slimmer (5,7 mm instead of 6,5 mm) and has less jewels (25 instead of 31). It has a higher power reserve (55 hours instead of 50 hours) as compared to the automatic El Primero.
It may even run for 58 hours. So you really have to wind it only once every two days.

Production of Zenith cal. 420 started in 1993 or 1994 (?) According to a post on this forum production ended in 2002 and the production total was 16100 total.

1993-94 was a creative period at Zenith, when they also developed the new "Elite" caliber.

In 1998 a few small technical changes in the movement resulted in renaming it caliber 420Z.

According to Zen (French site RAINBOW (2) & OTHERS) Zenith caliber 420 appeared for the first time in the catalog of 1996 :










The name *'Zenith Prime'* was an elegant idea.

The design is very classic, with black or white dials. Both have the tachymeter painted on the dial.

The white dial has markers on the hours, the black dial has luminous numerals.

Both dials are signed *'Zenith Prime'* with the square Zenith logo.

The crown also has the square Zenith logo.

Almost exactly the same dials were used for automatic El Primero's of the same period, which were signed Zenith El Primero automatic (without logo) (love that classic white dial automatic El Primero !)

The black dial, the white dial, the automatics, ... they all have different hands.

The dials (black and white) have a silver lining for the subregisters.

There also exists a goldplated Zenith Prime, which has a white dial with Roman numerals and golden lined subregisters.
There also is an 18 K gold Zenith Prime wristwatch, and an 18 K gold Prime pocket watch.

The dial is 'classic Zenith El Primero' in having the date at 4 o'clock, with the lovely detail of the seconds graduation on the edge of the date window :










It has a classic mineral crystal, which is easy to replace if necessary.

The transparent back allows a vision of the no-nonsense movement.

Actually you get a better idea of the movement without the automatic rotor blocking most of the view.



















The box in the next pictures is not original of this watch (it came with a Zenith triple date moonphase quartz chronograph of the same period, so the same box could have been used for the mechanical chronographs as well).





































The Zenith Prime was produced for only a few years ca. 1995-1996 (maybe 1997?).

Except for the pocket watch version, it was not featured any more in the 1998 catalogue.

It was subsequently renamed and restyled as the *Zenith El Primero HW*, which was featured in Zenith catalogues in the period 2000-2001.

The El Primero HW also has a black or white dial, but a different design: both have numerals (which are bigger). The word tachymeter is now written in red, and the central seconds hand has a red tip. There is no logo on the dial, but the same square logo on the crown. The El Primero HW often comes on a bracelet (though it was available on a strap as well). 
The movement is caliber 420Z (instead of 420).
I've not seen any gold plated or gold versions.
Like the Zenith Prime, it also has its pendant in automatic El Primero's with the same dial design (the El Primero Automatic Class Sport).

The El Primero HW is water resistant up to 100 m, so theoretically you could go for a swim with it (the Zenith Prime was just 'water resistant').

The examples of the Zenith Prime which which you may still find for sale, are usually second hand (used)(which is normal since they are older), whereas there are still some Zenith El Primero HW's for sale NIB.

Considering its amazing technical specs, completeness, thinness, accuracy, durability, as well as beautiful design, high quality materials and elegance, I'll vote these for the best hand-wound chronographs ever made.

Looking forward to your pictures and experiences.


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## D N Ravenna

Pretty sweet! I had the later version of this one.

Cheers!

Dan


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## LouS

Great post, and I like the way you've kitted yours out. Handwound chronos are darned rare these days (Speedmaster excepted), and this is easily the most distinguished.


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## Gombrich

Nice write-up. Thanks.

I can't contribute any pics as I haven't got one of these beasties (yet). I'm really interested in seeing one of these up close.

Dave


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## sempervivens

Thanks for the reactions.
I hope a few owners will step forward. I've seen a couple on this forum so they are there.



> Pretty sweet! I had the later version of this one.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Dan
> Attached Thumbnails


You had and resold it Dan ? Do you remember if it was caliber 420Z ?
Do they appear in your catalogs ?



> Handwound chronos are darned rare these days (Speedmaster excepted), and this is easily the most distinguished.


Interesting comparison. It's difficult to beat the design of the Omega Speedmaster. And I'm not technical enough to make a comparison between the qualities of Omega cal. 861 and Zenith cal. 420. Omega cal. 861 is definitely a great movement (why else would they still be making it after 42 years). Surely Zenith cal. 420 has great potential as well, particularly as an elegant dress watch. It is thinner than Omega 861 (5,7 mm instead of 6,87 mm).


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## Hartmut Richter

I must admit that I never really liked the "Prime" (or EP HW) Cal. 420. One reason is that I still think of the El Primero as the very first automatic chronograph in the world - and not only when it was brought out, one of the best, decades ahead of its time. It seems pointless to reduce it to an ordinary hand wound chronograph. The second thing is that (like the Lemania 321/Omega 861), the bridge layout is a little modern and industrial. Nothing to compare aesthetically with the old Venus/Valjoux chronos with their curved chronograph bridge, brakes, etc. I'd rather see the rotor on top.....

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

> I must admit that I never really liked the "Prime" (or EP HW) Cal. 420. One reason is that I still think of the El Primero as the very first automatic chronograph in the world - and not only when it was brought out, one of the best, decades ahead of its time. It seems pointless to reduce it to an ordinary hand wound chronograph. The second thing is that (like the Lemania 321/Omega 861), the bridge layout is a little modern and industrial. Nothing to compare aesthetically with the old Venus/Valjoux chronos with their curved chronograph bridge, brakes, etc. I'd rather see the rotor on top.....


Dear Hartmut, I do sense some prejudice here. You are not talking from the personal experience of having owned one, but rather from the point of view of someone who has made up a few reasons _why not_ to get one 



> It seems pointless to reduce it to an ordinary hand wound chronograph.


On the contrary, I can see several good reasons. Why not use all the possibilities of this excellent movement ?

To some it may seem pointless to have a version with triple date and moonphase; still that is an interesting possibility of this versatile movement; and so is a hand-wound version another interesting possibility. Only, instead of more complicated, this version is more simplified. To make a handwound version of the first automatic chronograph, seems to me a good example of "thinking out of the box".

More good reasons : the movement is slimmer and allows for a more elegant casing. Servicing the watch is easier. The cost of the watch is less. One may also prefer a hand-wound watch over an automatic watch for reasons of reliability. And so on and on !



> The second thing is that ... the bridge layout is a little modern and industrial. Nothing to compare aesthetically with the old Venus/Valjoux chronos ...I'd rather see the rotor on top


So you are saying that you like the automatic version, because the rotor hides the bridge layout . Let's face it, this is the El Primero. Agreed, it is not so pleasing to the eye as the curved bridges of old Venus, Valjoux, or even Landeron movements. But what does that matter, if it is the best handwound or automatic chronograph ever made ? I find it has a no-nonsense look, and even somebody who knows very little about watches, can have a look through the transparent caseback (something which you couldn't do with old Venus etc. chronographs) and that person will immediately see that this is a first class movement.


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## Hartmut Richter

_Suum cuique_ - each to their own! By all means, buy one if you like. For myself, if thinking about a manual chronograph, I'd still rather go for something else. E.g. the Cal. 143 (based on the Excelsior Park Cal. Expark 40 - with 24 hour hand in form of a "North" hand), or something with a Venus 211 (chronograph with early large date feature - quite zany: after the 31st of the month, you get the 32nd, the 33rd, .... the 39th, the 00th [!!!] and finally the 1st; you end up having to correct manually quite a bit, but it really is a piece of horlogical history, that one!), or an older tricompax (also found in some Zenith chronos as the Cal. 136 HC). The main reason for choosing the EP HW would probably be the date feature for me.....

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Thanks for the observations Hartmut, you mention some interesting chronographs there, which sound very attractive to me. Speaking of chronographs with date, this is a link to an interesting article about the first chronographs with date function. I'll share it here for everybody on the forum who is interested enough to deal with a French only article : Page Modèles (hosted by invenitetfecit.com)

So I understand what you mean, I also love old chronographs like Venus and Valjoux. I wouldn't mind a nice Universal Geneve Tricompax for instance, or a 1960's Zenith chronograph. The Zenith Prime is actually one of the most recent watches in my collection (if not the most recent). I'm normally for old watches, at least thirty years old.

But the Zenith Prime had a nice classic appeal. And it is a good entry level for Zenith El Primero watches... So I got one for christmas some time ago. I'm still very happy with that purchase.

Speaking of the history of chronographs with date... which was the first automatic chronograph with day and date : surely that was Seiko with their caliber 6139 ? I find it odd that this fact is never mentioned. Seiko cal. 6138-6139 was in many ways a world's first and decades ahead of their time. But nobody ever mentions that they were the first automatic chronographs to have both day and date function.

To return to Zenith cal. 420 : actually Zenith waited quite some time to create a hand-wound version of the El Primero, if you consider that the same was done already in 1977 or so : Valjoux 7765, non automatic version of the Valjoux 7755 (date only). Valjoux made several handwound versions and perhaps Zenith followed their example.

It would be interesting to see the birth of a Zenith El Primero handwound version with moonphase....


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## D N Ravenna

Hartmut Richter said:


> _Suum cuique_ - each to their own! By all means, buy one if you like. For myself, if thinking about a manual chronograph, I'd still rather go for something else. E.g. the Cal. 143 (based on the Excelsior Park Cal. Expark 40 - with 24 hour hand in form of a "North" hand), or something with a Venus 211 (chronograph with early large date feature - quite zany: after the 31st of the month, you get the 32nd, the 33rd, .... the 39th, the 00th [!!!] and finally the 1st; you end up having to correct manually quite a bit, but it really is a piece of horlogical history, that one!), or an older tricompax (also found in some Zenith chronos as the Cal. 136 HC). The main reason for choosing the EP HW would probably be the date feature for me.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


You forget the Omega Speedy Pro moon watch. What was that, a cal 321? HW chronographs always have a warm place in my heart. ;-)

Dan


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## Hartmut Richter

Yes, the moon watch is a little special - but only because it went to the moon! Technically, it is just a three register chrono without date. Still, for sheer ruggedness (beat Rolex three times! - not that that's too difficult!!!:-d), you could place it on the list.

As for the Seiko, that was indeed the first day-date automatic chrono. It certainly beat the second one to that title: the Zenith Cal. 3019 PHF. There were, of course, several manual ones before hand, although the date was usually by central hand and the whole thing came in conjunction with a full calender ± moonphase.

Agreed, that is something we haven't had yet: a manual EP with full calender and moonphase. Until we see a manual EP back, full stop, we are probably not likely to see one.....

Hartmut Richter


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## LouS

What was the interval between the 3019 PHC and PHF? I see in Rossler that the first PHF-engined watch wasn't sold until 1971, but do you know the specific evolution of the PHF?


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## Hartmut Richter

No, I can't really add to that. My guess is that the full calender and moonphase, since it had been realized so frequently in earlier chronographs (Valjoux, Universal "Tricompax", etc.) was the most obvious extension of this excellent movement so Zenith set about that first of all. The length of time taken to realize this (1.5-2 years) suggests that this was not planned right from the start. However, all this is unconfirmed.

Hartmut Richter


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## orahu

I have the 420Z and I wear it almost daily -- one of my very favorite watches. A photo is posted below. I also bought the Zenith Elite HW (Movement 680).


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## sempervivens

Thank you Orahu. Congratulations with that El Primero HW. Interesting that you also got the Elite HW. I just noticed the handwound version of the Elite movement in a catalog from 1998. Personally I'm not familiar with the Elite, but it is interesting to see a handwound version of that as well.

In the same catalog I saw that Zenith made a "PocketMaster" 18 K gold "_Prime_" pocket watch with the El Primero HW cal. 420.

This pw seems to have been the only "Prime" remaining in the 1998 catalog. RRP was 6.750,- DM in 1998.

Hartmut, maybe the pw version of the El Primero HW could be the one for you :-! ?

Here is a scan :


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> Hartmut, maybe the pw version of the El Primero HW could be the one for you :-! ?


I doubt it - if I would go for a Zenith pocket chronograph, it would be one with the old 19''' chronograph calibre. Preferably like the one in Rössler's book: savonette in gold case, with enamel painting on front and back (pp. 76-77). Or alternatively one with chronograph and repeater.....

Hartmut Richter


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## Barge

Here is my Zenith prime 420. I love it.









b-)


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## D N Ravenna

Barge said:


> Here is my Zenith prime 420. I love it.
> 
> b-)


Very nice and good photos!
Thanks for shaing!

Dan


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## sempervivens

I would even say more : great pictures and thank you for sharing !


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## FK65

Hello all,

some days ago, I`ve got a Zenith Prime from ebay. 
It`s a little bit special, because it`s a steel watch but engravings on the bottom and between the lugs shows us, that the watch should be "Gold Plated 20 M".
Maybe there was a preowner who removed the gold plaque. The man who sells the watch to me, did not know anything about that.

Now the pictures:









I`ve seen these hands before only on watches with the black dial.... ?










Here we can see the engraving "Gold plated......":








I think the first part of the reference-number displays the material of the case (20 = 20 µm gold, 01 = stainless steel). Anybody here, who knows about that?









Very nice movement, isn`t it..... ?










Although there are some unclear things with this watch, I love it....
It`s very unostentatious and you can wear it with a lot of clothings (Jeans, suit...).

Best regards an I hope you enjoy the pictures

Frank


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## georges zaslavsky

very classic and clean watch


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## FK65

Thank you Georges!

Best regards
Frank


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## sempervivens

> some days ago, I`ve got a Zenith Prime from ebay.
> It`s a little bit special, because it`s a steel watch but engravings on the bottom and between the lugs shows us, that the watch should be "Gold Plated 20 M".
> Maybe there was a preowner who removed the gold plaque. The man who sells the watch to me, did not know anything about that.


Dear Frank,

sorry for the late reply, as I was away on a holiday.

Your watch looks very nice.

The white dial with markers on the hours is correct for the stainless steel Prime.

The goldplated Prime I've seen for sale has a white dial with Roman numerals and golden lined subregisters. It also has gold colour hands.

It's very strange that your watch also has 'goldplated' engravings between the lugs (are you sure about this ?). Otherwise it would have been possible that just the caseback had been switched.

Another thing is that it seems that your watch has the correct hands for the _black _dial stainless steel Prime.

So it may have been that your watch was put together from different spare parts. It still looks very nice and the movement is great.

In attachment for the record a pic of the goldplated Prime.


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## FK65

Thank you very much for your reply!
Yes, it`s a very special watch and first I thought, I`ll give the watch back to the seller. But later I`ve decided to keep it by myself.
I think, you are completely right with your observations... The hands are these from the black dial watches and normally the gold plated watches had the roman numerals and golden hands....
Today I took some macro-fotos from the engraving between the lugs. It`s in fact "Plaque G 20 M". 
I will show the pictures later here in this thread.
So, I have to suspect, that my watch consists from several parts and is a "Bastel-Wastel" what we say in Germany. 
But the watch looks very nice, the movement is without any signs of use.
Is here somebody who knows what will appear, if I send the watch to Zenith for revision? 
First of all I want to have the genuine hands for the white dial. After that it will be a perfect stainless-steel watch for me.

Best regards
Frank


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## sempervivens

Hello Frank,

this kind of


> "Bastel-Wastel"


 has the advantage that it can be in very good to excellent condition. Does it keep good time ?
Why would you even take the trouble to change the hands...they are very nice.

best regards


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## FK65

Hello sempervivens,
the condition is really excellent.... The watch is a little bit fast: 7-10 seconds per day but I can live with that without regulation...
I don`t want to change the hands until the watch needs a service.
When the upload to the picture-server is done, I will post some new pics. 
I`ve bought a original buckle and a alligator strap for the watch because there were not original ones.

Best regards
Frank


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## sempervivens

> Hello sempervivens,
> the condition is really excellent.... The watch is a little bit fast: 7-10 seconds per day but I can live with that without regulation...
> I don`t want to change the hands until the watch needs a service.
> When the upload to the picture-server is done, I will post some new pics.
> I`ve bought a original buckle and a alligator strap for the watch because there were not original ones.
> 
> Best regards
> Frank


Very good Frank, excellent thinking. Official Zenith servicing and new hands may be costly but worthwhile and anyway you can probably enjoy the watch many years before it will need a service.

Regulating it to perfect time keeping should not be a problem and since it is easy to do for a watchmaker you can consider to have that done sooner or later. First you may want to try it out a little longer to see how it settles down.

best regards


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## sempervivens

Here is a picture of the white dial (stainless steel) Prime from a watch magazine dated May 1996 :










The Prime was received quite well by the readers of the magazin. One contributor had bought his Prime in November 1995, and commented : "Beautiful, elegant watch with great nostalgic looks." The transparent caseback is also much appreciated.

I'll repeat it : the automatic El Primero was the thinnest automatic chronograph in the world; the handwound caliber 420 is even thinner.

IMHO it is the best (or one of the best) handwound chronographs ever made.


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## sempervivens

noticed another small difference between Zenith El Primero HW and Zenith Prime : the Zenith El Primero HW should be water resistant up to 100 m, so you could go for a swim with it. The Zenith Prime is just 'water resistant'.


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## D N Ravenna

Without a screw-down crown... Tell you what, you can swim with yours, mine will stay on land close to the Padron cigar and Barbancourt 15 yr old rhum. :-!

Dan


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## George S

*I agree with your view on the HW movement*

Hartmut - I've previously owned both versions and felt that Zenith could have done more to the HW movement than simply removing the rotor. At least fill in the mounting holes on the bridge. 

I currently own a Chronomaster after a couple of years with no Zenith in the case.


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## sempervivens

Here are some more images regarding the Zenith Prime El Primero HW cal. 420.

From a watch magazin, Chronos May-June *1995 *:










These pics are featured in an interesting *'market overview of handwound chronographs*'.
32 models of many different brands were featured, very interesting overview.
In 1995, at 2850 DM, the Zenith Prime was about the same price as a Universal Geneve Compax, and slightly (15 %) more expensive, compared to the Omega Speedmaster Professional (starting at 2500 DM). 
Prices seem to have gone up a lot since 1995, not only as a result of inflation (up 33 %), but also because of the general success in the market for luxury watches.

the following images are from the 1998 catalog



















*Can anybody supply more information about the EL PRIMERO HW / CATALOG INFORMATION , *
*WHICH YEAR, 1999-2000-2001... ?*


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## sempervivens

Anybody knows which catalogs feature the Zenith El Primero HW with cal. 420Z ?

1999 - 2000 - 2001 ?

Could you share and /or scan some information for this thread ?

In the meantime, I noticed another difference with the Zenith Prime in the dial : it seems the silver lining of the subregisters is not there.


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## sempervivens

here is a Zenith Prime in 18 K gold


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## Rickr23

That's gorgeous.


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## D N Ravenna

I love the case, but the dial is similar to those of some, more modern quartz watches, especially the sub dials.
But it is still a looker!
Dan


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## sempervivens

D N Ravenna said:


> I love the case, but the dial is similar to those of some, more modern quartz watches, especially the sub dials.
> But it is still a looker!
> Dan


the subdials are identical to those of the 18 K Chronomaster or Rainbow in the 1990's


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## sempervivens

Got two new catalogs : Collection II and III : 2002-2003. Must say that Mr. Thierry Nataf had some beautiful catalogs made. 

The Zenith El Primero HW is not in these catalogs, but the El Primero Automatic Class Sport is there and looks very much like the El Primero HW.


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## sempervivens

Thanks to forum members Veritas and Gombrich, here is some additional catalogue information about the *Zenith El Primero HW* (wristwatch):

Zenith UK catalogues from September 2000 and July 2001 both feature the El Primero HW. 
(another dated January 2000 doesn't show the HW).
The UK catalogues only show the black dial model in both strap and bracelet versions.

September 2000 prices are:
01.500.420/24 £1485
02.500.420/24 £1655

July 2001 prices are:
01.500.420/24 £1595
02.500.420/24 £1750

A French version of "The Collection" (2001 catalog) has the following four models featured.



















b-)

Also, here is a link to a review :
Zenith El Primero, Handwound | Watch Report

This article mentions that the technical director of Zenith at the time talked about this watch with passion at the Basel fair.
Unfortunately it seems that both the technical director and the watch were discontinued by the then new ceo mr. Nataf. :-s
As we know, mr. Nataf was inclined to extremes and probably the idea of a handwound chronograph was too simple for him.

As metnioned before, the El Primero HW was a sort of update of the Zenith Prime, now with cal. 420 Z, higher waterresistance (100 m), and a bigger case (40 mm instead of 38 mm).
The dial has more modern numerals.
The new name 'El Primero HW' instead of the lovely name 'Prime' probably was an effort to attract more recognition from watch lovers, by emphasizing more explicitly the El Primero heritage.

Concerning the list price, 1750 GBP corresponded to around 2525 dollar in 2000-2001.
The price in euro was probably more or less the same (ca. 2700 euro, since in 2000-2001 the dollar was higher than the euro).

Note : some sellers claim that the normal retail price is more than 4000 dollar. I've also seen them illustrate this with pictures of pricetags.
It is true that if one updates the price after ten years (from 2001 to 2011), the inflation was + 25 %, _and _the general trend for luxury watches was up _and_ more specifically the prices of Zenith have gone up. So in today's prices, the list price could have been around 4000 dollar. But then again, this is only speculation, since Zenith doesn't make this watch any more.

Of course, the fact that only a relative small number was made adds to its collectability.


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## daniel_hk

From my view, HW version has more tough and military looks compare with Prime. I picked HW finally as one of my zenith collection. My point is this HW version is the historial classic in the brand. Zenith might not produce Handwound movements anymore in the future. I still can find some mint condition HW with reasonable price in second hand market, I have no execuse and no regret to get it.










Picture with my another watch (Rolex 16700)









Cheers, Daniel


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## D N Ravenna

daniel_hk said:


> From my view, HW version has more tough and military looks compare with Prime. I picked HW finally as one of my zenith collection. My point is this HW version is the historial classic in the brand. Zenith might not produce Handwound movements anymore in the future. I still can find some mint condition HW with reasonable price in second hand market, I have no execuse and no regret to get it.
> 
> Picture with my another watch (Rolex 16700)
> Cheers, Daniel


Had one before. It is a great watch!
Enjoy it!

Dan


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## Tom

Sorry for bumping this old thread, but I bought an El Primero HW in black today. It doesn't have the 420z movement, just the 420. Can you guys tell me when the 420z was introduced? Always thought that only the El Prime models had the 420 and the El Primero HW (the same as on page 2) had the 420z


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## sempervivens

daniel_hk said:


> From my view, HW version has more tough and military looks compare with Prime. I picked HW finally as one of my zenith collection. My point is this HW version is the historial classic in the brand. Zenith might not produce Handwound movements anymore in the future. I still can find some mint condition HW with reasonable price in second hand market, I have no execuse and no regret to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Picture with my another watch (Rolex 16700)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Daniel


Thanks Daniel that's a nice presentation.

Somemore additions to the thread :

1. as Dan pointed out, there is an obvious hole in the bridge, where the rotor for the automatic version would have been attached. Personally I think Dan is right, Zenith could have used something like a blind screw or so, to fill this up.

2. it seems a few people got an EP HW with cal. 420 Z, where the 'Z' apparently was added in a slightly rougher way, leading the forum to think that Zenith used a few left over bridges of cal. 420 and then added the Z on these. Here is a link to the separate thread : https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zeni...and-wound-awkward-420-z-engraving-508309.html

and two pictures where you can see the difference :


















3. Now Tom wrote that he even got an EP HW which doesn't have the Z at all. Please show us some pictures Tom ! 
AFAIK every EP HW should have cal. 420Z. 
As mentioned in the beginning of this thread :
"In 1998 a few small technical changes in the movement resulted in renaming it caliber 420Z."
Since the EP HW was made after 1998, they all should have cal. 420Z.

There can be different explanations for yours not having the 'Z'...for instance :
- maybe Zenith forgot to add the Z
- maybe Zenith used a left over cal. 420
- ...


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## Tom

sempervivens said:


> Please show us some pictures Tom !
> AFAIK every EP HW should have cal. 420Z.
> As mentioned in the beginning of this thread :
> "In 1998 a few small technical changes in the movement resulted in renaming it caliber 420Z."
> Since the EP HW was made after 1998, they all should have cal. 420Z.
> 
> There can be different explanations for yours not having the 'Z'...for instance :
> - maybe Zenith forgot to add the Z
> - maybe Zenith used a left over cal. 420
> - ...


Made some really quick pics.



















This one just had a service at Zenith. Unfortunately the watch didn't came with papers but had the new style box (with the golden plaque) and it had a folding clasp. Can anybody tell me if this was a newer re-edition or is the type of box there for years.


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## Tom

After a extensive search I found some more

ƒ[ƒjƒX�@ƒNƒ‰ƒX�@ƒGƒ‹ƒvƒŠƒ�ƒ� ŽèŠª ZENITH�@CLASS El Primero HW

ƒ[ƒjƒX�@ƒNƒ‰ƒX�@ƒGƒ‹ƒvƒŠƒ�ƒ� ŽèŠª ZENITH�@CLASS El Primero HW

I also sended an email to Zenith. The thing is that my watch doesn't come with papers. Is there any unique serial number somewhere so they can check the age? I don't have any papers.


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## D N Ravenna

Any one recall where the serial number on this one is? I no longer have mine for a reference.
Thanks!
dan


----------



## sempervivens

Tom said:


> After a extensive search I found some more
> 
> ƒ[ƒjƒX�@ƒNƒ‰ƒX�@ƒGƒ‹ƒvƒŠƒ�ƒ� ŽèŠª ZENITH�@CLASS El Primero HW
> 
> ƒ[ƒjƒX�@ƒNƒ‰ƒX�@ƒGƒ‹ƒvƒŠƒ�ƒ� ŽèŠª ZENITH�@CLASS El Primero HW
> 
> I also sended an email to Zenith. The thing is that my watch doesn't come with papers. Is there any unique serial number somewhere so they can check the age? I don't have any papers.


Interesting, so several instances now show that the EP HW also exists with cal. 420 instead of cal. 420Z!

AFAIK Zenith has not used any serial numbers on the movements of their watches since around 1967. Serial numbers or anything similar on the back of the watchcase were also abandoned after 1971.
Instead since 1972 they only engrave the catalog reference number of the model on the back of the watch.

So to date your watch you should go by the date of the catalog. The EP HW was featured in the catalog 2000 and 2001. You can read more about it elsewhere in this thread.



> Zenith UK catalogues from September 2000 and July 2001 both feature the El Primero HW.
> (another dated January 2000 doesn't show the HW).
> The UK catalogues only show the black dial model in both strap and bracelet versions.
> 
> September 2000 prices are:
> 01.500.420/24 £1485
> 02.500.420/24 £1655
> 
> July 2001 prices are:
> 01.500.420/24 £1595
> 02.500.420/24 £1750
> 
> A French version of "The Collection" (2001 catalog) has the following four models featured.


----------



## Tom

sempervivens said:


> Interesting, so several instances now show that the EP HW also exists with cal. 420 instead of cal. 420Z!
> 
> AFAIK Zenith has not used any serial numbers on the movements of their watches since around 1967. Serial numbers or anything similar on the back of the watchcase were also abandoned after 1971.
> Instead since 1972 they only engrave the catalog reference number of the model on the back of the watch.
> 
> So to date your watch you should go by the date of the catalog. The EP HW was featured in the catalog 2000 and 2001. You can read more about it elsewhere in this thread.


Don't think my watch is from 2000/01. Thr box does look to new for that. Did they have the new style box already back then?
Believe the HW versions are still sold new by collectorstime.

Btw: mine got the ref of one with a bracelet, but it came on leather. don't have any marks between the lugs. Don't think it is ever mounted.


----------



## Tom

Are there visible differences between the 420 and 420z?


----------



## sempervivens

Tom said:


> Don't think my watch is from 2000/01. Thr box does look to new for that. Did they have the new style box already back then?
> Believe the HW versions are still sold new by collectorstime.


the seller may have added a more recent box. if you show us a picture of the box, there may be some here on the forum who can tell how old the box is.


----------



## Rickr23

The serial number of the watch is on the mainplate near the balance wheel.


----------



## Tom

sempervivens said:


> the seller may have added a more recent box. if you show us a picture of the box, there may be some here on the forum who can tell how old the box is.


It is this one

http://www.passions.com.sg/v2/files/imagecache/watermark/files/8315-ZenithBox.jpg

Hope yoy guys can help me out!


----------



## Tom

Made some fresh pics tonight


----------



## Rickr23

Awesome pics. Thanks


----------



## D N Ravenna

Tom said:


> It is this one
> 
> http://www.passions.com.sg/v2/files/imagecache/watermark/files/8315-ZenithBox.jpg
> 
> Hope yoy guys can help me out!


Definitely not of that era. Still a nice box! You would be amazed that at most jewelers, they do not keep the boxes of used watches traded in even though that is what us WISs look for. Heck, some of them don't care to match the box the watch came in with even with new!

Cheers!
Dan


----------



## D N Ravenna

Tom,
Those are some excellent shots!
Thanks for sharing!!!
Dan


----------



## hanz079

These are mine... 
Sorry for the poor quality shots...
It's on an aftermarket Hadley Roma croc strap with a pre owned Zenith deployant I bought off the bay.
The original steel bracelet's quality I find it lacking.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Yes, if you get close enough to count the teeth in the escapement gear.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Hartmut Richter

The "Z" versions of all movements were introduced around 1999-2000, when the old machinery for making the parts for the movement was trashed and had to be replaced.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Tom

Hartmut Richter said:


> The "Z" versions of all movements were introduced around 1999-2000, when the old machinery for making the parts for the movement was trashed and had to be replaced.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


So it hadn't to do with the quality of the non-Z version. And maybe a stupid question but which wheel is the escape wheel? The one near the pallet? Don't think you can count those theeth.


----------



## D N Ravenna

hanz079 said:


> These are mine...
> Sorry for the poor quality shots...
> It's on an aftermarket Hadley Roma croc strap with a pre owned Zenith deployant I bought off the bay.
> The original steel bracelet's quality I find it lacking.


Thanks for sharing! The only way to take better pictures is to keep on trying. 
Looking forward to more.

Dan


----------



## Phreude

Saw this thread and stopped by to say hi--I just picked up an EP HW yesterday, and it appears to be the same as Tom's in that it has a non-Z Cal. 420 and the same box, but this one has a steel bracelet. Very informative thread--thanks.












Hartmut Richter said:


> Yes, if you get close enough to count the teeth in the escapement gear.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


----------



## Rickr23

Very nice, congratulations.


----------



## Phreude

Thanks kindly, Rick.



Rickr23 said:


> Very nice, congratulations.


----------



## D N Ravenna

Nice shot! When I owned mine, I always found that the hardest things to shoot were the counter hands. They were so highly polished that unless lit indirectly, they blended into the dial. 

Enjoy your beauty and thanks for sharing!
Dan


----------



## Phreude

Thanks Dan, I typically get one nice shot out of five or eight....



D N Ravenna said:


> Nice shot! When I owned mine, I always found that the hardest things to shoot were the counter hands. They were so highly polished that unless lit indirectly, they blended into the dial.
> 
> Enjoy your beauty and thanks for sharing!
> Dan


----------



## kircheis7

Just saw this thread and want to confirm several things before I get my EP HW.
I found EP HW on collectors time. Did any of you bought from this place? It is claimed to have manufacture warranty. Does it mean that I can ask Zenith service center to do a maintenance after I get this timepiece?

Thanks in advance.
Kircheis


----------



## D N Ravenna

Hi Kirchels,
To be absolutely sure, you need to ask them that. They know whether or not Zenith will honor a warranty on a watch sold by them.
Please keep us posted,
Dan


----------



## kircheis7

D N Ravenna said:


> Hi Kirchels,
> To be absolutely sure, you need to ask them that. They know whether or not Zenith will honor a warranty on a watch sold by them.
> Please keep us posted,
> Dan


 Hi Dan,

I was told that I can get manufacture warranty at the Zenith service center. That sounds too good to be true.

Thanks,
Kircheis


----------



## kircheis7

I found many positive references of that seller. Will share with you guys when I received my El Primero HW.

Cheers,
Kircheis


----------



## D N Ravenna

kircheis7 said:


> I found many positive references of that seller. Will share with you guys when I received my El Primero HW.
> 
> Cheers,
> Kircheis


Looking forward to it!
Thanks Kircheis!

Dan


----------



## kircheis7

Got it today! Let me share with you guys.


----------



## kircheis7

It comes with a stamped warranty card. But the name, date, watch reference, movement reference is not filled in.


----------



## daniel_hk

Great! Welcome to Zenith family!

Just aware your movement is Cal 420. Mine is 420Z.


----------



## kircheis7

Some more photos I just took.


----------



## sempervivens

Thanks for sharing the beautiful pics (hope you will not remove the pics after a few weeks like some do !) Congratulations with the beautiful watch. What I like about the El Primero HW is also the marvellous bracelet.b-)


----------



## D N Ravenna

Thanks for sharing!!!

Dan


----------



## kircheis7

I want to resize the bracelet. Can someone please advise on how I can do this, and what kind of tools are required.


----------



## D N Ravenna

I forget, but I believe the bracelet needs a pin removal tool. This tool allows you to push the pins through one side, and once the link is removed, you can push the pin back to secure the bracelet.

Hope that helps,
Dan


----------



## kircheis7

Dan,

Thanks. I got it re-sized in a local AD for free. Will start wearing it tomorrow.

Cheers,
Kircheis


----------



## D N Ravenna

:-!

Great deal!

Dan


----------



## kircheis7

Where can I find an original strap deployment clasp? Thanks in advance.


----------



## D N Ravenna

kircheis7 said:


> Where can I find an original strap deployment clasp? Thanks in advance.


Sometimes you can find it on eBay. Sometimes on the sales corner. If you have a local AD, you should check with them as well.

Please keep us posted!
Dan


----------



## sempervivens

Some more additions for the thread :

REFERENCE NUMBERS FOR ZENITH PRIME

the stainless steel Zenith Prime has catalog references* 01.0012.420 (*black dial) and *01.0016.420* (white dial). 
But the watches themselves (both black and white dial) only carry the reference *01.0010.420*.

The 20 microns goldplated Zenith Prime has ref. 20.0010.420 (white dial with painted black Roman numbers) and the 18 K gold Zenith Prime has ref. 06-0010.420 (white dial with applied golden Roman numbers). These are the references which I have seen on theSE watches, I don't know the catalog reference.

It is odd that there are these differences between the catalog reference, and the actual reference on the watch back.

SERIAL NUMBERS for ZENITH PRIME and ZENITH EL PRIMERO HW

In some pictures I noticed that the Zenith El Primero HW may have a serial number under the balance, as forum member Rick also pointed out.

On the contrary the Zenith Prime does not have any serial number that I'm aware of.

REFERENCE NUMBERS FOR ZENITH EL PRIMERO HW

Catalog reference (for the black dial EP HW)
01.500.420/24 
02.500.420/24

and for the white dial:
01.500.420/04
02.500.420/04

The watches themselves simply carry the reference *01.500.420* or *02.500.420*.

Normally a watch with ref. starting 01.... comes on a leather strap and the ref. 02.... is the version with a steel bracelet. But I've spotted EP HW watches on a leather strap which nevertheless have ref. 02....on the back (somewhere in the process the bracelet must have been exchanged for a leather strap).


----------



## sempervivens

The Zenith Prime with black dial and phosphorescent green numerals reminded me of the 1940's. It struck me with its classic appeal.

The Zenith Prime with white dial has faceted applied hourmarkers, a style which seems more typical for the 1950's (though it probably originated in the 1940's).

You can see the same applied hourmarkers in some of the new watches which have just been presented on the Basel fair this year, for instance by Zenith.

Here is a Zenith Prime, a watch that was new in 1995/1996.









Quite thin (for a watch with chronograph functions), the handwound version is of course even thinner than the automatic El Primero, since there is no need for the automatic winding mechanism and its rotor.
















correct crown logo







caliber 420 "El Primero handwound"















period buckle and box








After I purchased it some time ago, I asked the watchmaker to adjust it a little. 
It now keeps time with chronometer precision (-4/+6 seconds per day).

It has an even higher power reserve than the automatic El Primero.
I checked it during the past three days. 
After winding it only once (fully), it kept running for 58 hours !

All this time (until it stopped), it kept excellent time.
It lost a few seconds (-2'' in 24 hours, -5'' in 58 hours). 
This could probably be improved even more by further adjusting, but I'm not going to bother my watchmaker for a few seconds!

The design of the watch is very classic and also satisfactory.


----------



## kircheis7

Thank you daniel!
Finally I bought the correct size spring bar.


----------



## D N Ravenna

kircheis7 said:


> Thank you daniel!
> Finally I bought the correct size spring bar.
> 
> View attachment 449611
> View attachment 449612


Very cool!
|>
Dan


----------



## kircheis7

_*Lume*:

_


----------



## D N Ravenna

Sweet! Thanks for that wonderful picture!

How are you liking it?

Cheers!
dan


----------



## [email protected]

Hi everyone. As you see, I'm new here. Have been enjoying the Zenith forum for quite a while, but I'm just posting now because I've finally got my hands on one of these. I haven't sized or worn it yet, but was so excited that I wanted to snap some pics for you all:





















Anyway...I hope you like the pics!

Chris


----------



## D N Ravenna

Great catch Chris! I once had one just like it and really enjoyed it. 

Thanks for sharing the pictures and wear it in good health!

Dan

:-!


----------



## sempervivens

[email protected] said:


> Hi everyone. As you see, I'm new here. Have been enjoying the Zenith forum for quite a while, but I'm just posting now because I've finally got my hands on one of these. I haven't sized or worn it yet, but was so excited that I wanted to snap some pics for you all:
> 
> View attachment 472801
> View attachment 472802
> View attachment 472803
> 
> 
> Anyway...I hope you like the pics!
> 
> Chris












very nice... now that I have both Prime's, I really need one of these.
Especially because I like physical activity, and the El Primero HW seems more suitable for that (water resistant to 100 m).
I went for holidays in Switzerland.
I wore my Prime daily for the first two weeks. It kept excellent time, loosing less than one second a day!
But then finally we had a day of better weather and we went for a long, somewhat rugged walk in the mountains (see pics below).
Since that walk it started loosing approx. 5 seconds a day ! (Maybe some humidity or dust got in ?)
Anyway, that is still ok. But it made me realize that the Zenith Prime is really a dress watch. 
The Zenith El Primero HW is the one you want, for rougher circumstances.

*Prime* :
*Definition: (1)* First in order of time; original; primeval; primitive; primary. 
*Definition: (2) *First in rank, degree, dignity, authority, or importance; as, prime minister. 
*Definition (3) :* First in excellence; of highest quality; as, prime wheat; a prime quality of cloth. 
...


----------



## heb

Hello,
Your's is from Zenith's pinnacle days of about 15 years ago; before they came to America. Sure wish I would have purchased one then.

Congratulations on your great watch. Its days are long gone.

heb


----------



## sempervivens

An extract from a 1994 yearbook (annuario orologi) presenting the Zenith Prime :

















What a great year it was for Zenith : that same year they presented the Chronomaster and the Elite.

b-)


----------



## D N Ravenna

sempervivens said:


> ...Anyway, that is still ok. But it made me realize that the Zenith Prime is really a dress watch.
> The Zenith El Primero HW is the one you want, for rougher circumstances....


Gee, I don't know about that! I have had both, and I can tell you that the biggest difference between the two movements is that the HW is missing the auto winding bridge, the rotor, and a few bits. Now perhaps there are differences in the cases. I might go for that.

Just saying.

;-)

Dan


----------



## sempervivens

Maybe you noticed already in some of the advertisements posted here, and it is mentioned in Roessler as well, that the crystal for these watches (Zenith Prime and Zenith El primero HW) is not sapphire, but a domed mineral crystal.
So please consider that corrected (I can't edit the original post any more).

Here are some pics of the black and white version together.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for the correction. Nice watches there - a pity about the rotor! :-d No, I never really thought all that much about the El Primero Prime/HW - rather like the new El Primero without the chronograph mechanism.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

You already said that Hartmut, in the beginning of this thread.

I've also already replied, the handwound version does have its advantages.

I like both, handwound and automatics, with or without chronograph...


----------



## Robmks

*Got mine about a year ago ...........*

Always loved the watch but discontinued. Lucked out finding one at a company store that was a 10 year old NOS at a nice price. For a couple days thought the hands were black. So readable in all light. Got a new warranty with the watch and came in handy. It lost about a second a day steady. Then after 4 months was losing 45 seconds a day. Got it sent out for a full service, no charge, and now gains 2 seconds a day. Love it. Got it on the nice bracelet, but here on a deer skin strap.

Bob


----------



## RiG

*Re: Got mine about a year ago ...........*

I seem to be making a habit of this. but for those interested in NOS Primero HW. I know of one black and one white on the ss bracelet for sale in a store in hk. warranty card but no stamp so a but useless. 420z's. They had three but I took a black a couple of weeks ago.

I can let you have details should you wish. and yes wrong box and manual no papers. But store is well known.


----------



## OceanRider

*Re: Got mine about a year ago ...........*

Hi RiG

May you pls let me know the details ?
I am seriously considering to get a EL Primero HW ... thx !


----------



## OceanRider

kircheis7 said:


> Dan,
> 
> Thanks. I got it re-sized in a local AD for free. Will start wearing it tomorrow.
> 
> Cheers,
> Kircheis


Hi Dan and Kircheis

The HW looks really classy to me.
Would you mind share where you get the "HW" in HK and roughly how much ?? pls pm me.... many thx!!


----------



## kircheis7

OceanRider said:


> Hi Dan and Kircheis
> 
> The HW looks really classy to me.
> Would you mind share where you get the "HW" in HK and roughly how much ?? pls pm me.... many thx!!


I bought it last year from a gray market dealer in Malaysia. Around $2500.

Hope it helps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OceanRider

kircheis7 said:


> I bought it last year from a gray market dealer in Malaysia. Around $2500.
> 
> Hope it helps.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thx Kircheis
useful info...

Now I find a place that selling the silver dial HW .... 
also a gray market seller ...
considering now ....
at this price... it is a nice entry point for a classic Zenith!


----------



## OceanRider

just a quick update ....
has placed my order on a white dial HW ...
can't wait to see it
hope it make to me by Easter!!


----------



## OceanRider

Hi everyone ...
Delighted to show my El Primero HW










It is a classic Zenith.

One small observation ...
the dial looks like in a slightly convex shape ...


----------



## D N Ravenna

OceanRider said:


> Hi everyone ...
> Delighted to show my El Primero HW
> 
> It is a classic Zenith.
> 
> One small observation ...
> the dial looks like in a slightly convex shape ...


Nice catch! Congratulations!

Dan


----------



## Condor A 580

Hi !

I'm not used with buying over Internet, which I know is "risky".

I just bought very recently my first Zenith watch on Ebay. It is a Zenith Prime. I never owned a non-vintage Zenith watch, and I am very happy to get this one which is modern but somehow remains very classical.

I am a bit worried about the guarantee certificate and the serial number of the watch.

The guarantee certificate identifies the watch with the number 4010016420, and the watch has the number 90./01-0010.420 engraved on its back. These numbers do not match.

Should these numbers match?
Are these numbers serial numbers? Or reference numbers?
Where on the watch is the serial number engraved?

I know the reference number 4010016420 exists (often appeard on the web), but my watch is engraved with 90./01-0010.420, which doesn't seem to be mentionned anywhere on the web. How to explain that stange number?

Thanks for considering my questions,
















Regards,

Benedict


----------



## Condor A 580

Sorry I meant: I know the reference number 90./01-0010.420 exists, but I couldn't find anything about the (Guarantee) watch number 4010016420.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Looking at the specimens in Rössler, he gives different reference numbers for different models (not surprising). He also shows the backs of two watches - and both have the 01.0010.420 reference number despite not being such references. I therefore think that all references got the "wrong" number on the back and that you guarantee number actually reflects the right one (similar phenomena can be observed in the deLuca series).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Condor A 580 said:


> Sorry I meant: I know the reference number 90./01-0010.420 exists, but I couldn't find anything about the (Guarantee) watch number 4010016420.












01.0016.420 is the _catalog reference _for the Zenith Prime with white dial. 
The '4' added in the beginning probably refers to the country where it is sold (or something like that).

Both the black and white dial Zenith Prime share the same case with _caseback reference_ 01-0010.420. As Hartmut explained, it is not unusual that this differs a little from the catalog reference.

Yours has on the back 90./01-0010.420. I hadn't yet seen one with the 90./ added, but again, it is nothing to worry about.

Congratulations with this wonderful 'entry-level' Zenith Primero.

I'm still thinking that Zenith should bring a handwound version with the complete calendar and moonphase. They can make it an entry-level Zenith Chronomaster. It would have the added advantage of being thinner than the automatic Chronomaster.


----------



## Condor A 580

Dear Sirs,

Thanks for your answers.
I was affraid that my watch could be a copy or a "spare parts salad".
I feel better now, after reading your comments.

The watch was given yesterday to Gübelin in Geneva, and will be transfered to Zenith in Le Locle for service. It will be cleaned up and get a proprer strap.

There after are some pictures of the watch (please notice the not cleaned case, and the not original strap, with a poorly finished "strange" zenith buckle (is it orginial??)

Anyway I'm looking forward to get the watch back as soon as possible, serviced, cleaned up and with proper & genuine Zenith strap & buckle...

Regards,

Benedict


----------



## sempervivens

Thank you for sharing.

Maybe you can ask Zenith also the precise date when it was manufactured. Nowadays they give that information only when they service a watch.
Then let us know.

There's nothing wrong with the buckle, it is the period correct Zenith buckle.


----------



## Heuermo

Here's a pic of my EP HW 420Z. So proud to have it. I love MW chronos.

View attachment 984693


Cheers


----------



## sempervivens

Heuermo said:


> Here's a pic of my EP HW 420Z. So proud to have it. I love MW chronos.
> 
> View attachment 984693
> 
> 
> Cheers


congrats, a future classic


----------



## D N Ravenna

Congrats! Wear it in good health!
Dan


----------



## sempervivens

Here is an illustration of the Zenith El Primero HW, from a 2002 yearbook of fine watches. It mentions that the Zenith El Primero HW has a sapphire crystal, and was available with a crocodile leather strap with deployante buckle (price 2401 Euro), or a bracelet (2677 Euro).

View attachment 1006237


----------



## abowloffire

White Zenith Prime, no box/papers (does this ever really become a problem?) but a reputable seller, good condition for €1300. Pull the trigger or no?


----------



## Condor A 580

Dear Sirs,


A few month ago (february 3rd, post #108), I shared with you my anxiety, just having sent my Zenith Prime (white dial) for service.


I got it back yesterday. Until now, I have been very satisfied. I have been scanning the dial and the movement with my binocular microscope. No stains, no screwdriver scratches, everything perfect.


The service has been cheaper than expected. I was told this was due to decreasing service tariffs.


Interesting point: The watchmaker told me that some of the (cal 420) movement components had been rebuilt especially for my watch. The reason would be that they wouldn't have spare components in stock for older models.


Again, thanks for you advice. And have a nice weekend!


----------



## D N Ravenna

Condor A 580 said:


> Dear Sirs,
> 
> 
> A few month ago (february 3rd, post #108), I shared with you my anxiety, just having sent my Zenith Prime (white dial) for service.
> 
> 
> I got it back yesterday. Until now, I have been very satisfied. I have been scanning the dial and the movement with my binocular microscope. No stains, no screwdriver scratches, everything perfect.
> 
> 
> The service has been cheaper than expected. I was told this was due to decreasing service tariffs.
> 
> 
> Interesting point: The watchmaker told me that some of the (cal 420) movement components had been rebuilt especially for my watch. The reason would be that they wouldn't have spare components in stock for older models.
> 
> 
> Again, thanks for you advice. And have a nice weekend!


I am glad everything worked out! Please enjoy it for a long time and thanks for sharing! Dan


----------



## cicastol

Hi all, just purchased the El Primero HW(used) with 420Z really fantastic chrono, i used it only 1 week and then sent to Zenith Le Locle for a full service, hope to regain my Primero ASAP but they quoted me at least 2 months for the service.


----------



## little big feather

Congrats...Have one just like. Great watch.


----------



## D N Ravenna

Very nice. Keep us posted and let us know how Zenith did. 

Cheers!

Dan


----------



## sempervivens

I realise I haven't posted this yet:









A 1996 catalog scan of the goldplated Zenith Prime.

Notice how apparently Zenith made two different versions of the goldplated Zenith Prime!


----------



## Veritas99

Here's a 1995 pamphlet with the Zenith Prime models and a price list from June 1995. The 20.0010.420 gold model posted above is on the price list, but not in the pamphlet.




































Larger photos are on my Flickr page - 1995 Zenith Prime Pamphlet - a set on Flickr


----------



## cicastol

D N Ravenna said:


> Very nice. Keep us posted and let us know how Zenith did.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Dan


Hi all,
received yesterday the estimate for the complete service from Zenith Le Locle, they quoted me 660CHF (717 USD) and to my surprise added also the prices for optionals services like change of the chrono pusher(108CHF),Crystal(54CHF),crown(20,5chf)and dial (60,5CHF), i agree only to make the full service with no optionals services.

Really i dont' know why they listed the optionals , my dial,pusher,crown and Crystal are absolutely scratch free in mint conditions, only the bezel showed minor hairlines.:-s

Regards


----------



## sempervivens

cicastol said:


> Hi all,
> received yesterday the estimate for the complete service from Zenith Le Locle, they quoted me 660CHF (717 USD) and to my surprise added also the prices for optionals services like change of the chrono pusher(108CHF),Crystal(54CHF),crown(20,5chf)and dial (60,5CHF), i agree only to make the full service with no optionals services.
> 
> Really i dont' know why they listed the optionals , my dial,pusher,crown and Crystal are absolutely scratch free in mint conditions, only the bezel showed minor hairlines.:-s
> 
> Regards


If I'm not mistaken, your watch was still working well when you sent it in for service? So the complete service itself was already "optional".

It doesn't hurt to know the price of the other optional services as well. Pity they didn't add an optional for the hands as well.

The crown and dial seem fair priced, but to my amazement the chrono pusher costs more than the dial b-)

Thank you for sharing.


----------



## D N Ravenna

cicastol said:


> Hi all,
> received yesterday the estimate for the complete service from Zenith Le Locle, they quoted me 660CHF (717 USD) and to my surprise added also the prices for optionals services like change of the chrono pusher(108CHF),Crystal(54CHF),crown(20,5chf)and dial (60,5CHF), i agree only to make the full service with no optionals services.
> 
> Really i dont' know why they listed the optionals , my dial,pusher,crown and Crystal are absolutely scratch free in mint conditions, only the bezel showed minor hairlines.:-s
> 
> Regards


Most likely a standard response. You may have wanted to replace some of the optionals and now you have the information if you need it.

Cheers!

Dan


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## cicastol

D N Ravenna said:


> Most likely a standard response. You may have wanted to replace some of the optionals and now you have the information if you need it.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Dan


Finally returned!

The watch was delivered back like a new watch, wrapped with protective plastics in a small envelope (synthetic leather with zenith logo), they even changed the chrono pusher and crown despite was an optional not requested without added costs.
On my timegrapher the watch show an impressive +1s/d with 0.0ms beat error and over 270° with only few crown wind turns (partial charge), really a top notch service from Zenith Le Locle !! b-)


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## Mike748

Mine. Almost 10 years old and going strong and keeping excellent time with no service yet... but I know its coming.


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## D N Ravenna

Mike748 said:


> Mine. Almost 10 years old and going strong and keeping excellent time with no service yet... but I know its coming.


Excellent! You have a fine watch there. Wish I had kept mine...

Dan


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## Acme

I would like to add a wrist-shot to this great thread:

Being a long-time admirer of ElPrimero, I have overlooked the Prime for many years. Recently I had the opportunity to add one in the collection, and I must say: it is a pity that hand-wound chronos are discontinued by Zenith. The Prime feels very delicate on the wrist, and quickly bonds with the owner on behalf of the regular winding-up. I must say, the Prime is not inferior to the automatic version.

Regards,

Acme


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## sempervivens

+ 1 

Love hand-wound chronographs. The Zenith Prime also has the advantage of being extra thin and easier to service. On top of that it has a beautiful and sober 1950s design.


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## Acme

A quick question:

I have the opportunity to purchase a Zenith cal. 420 modell (90/01.0010.420 on the case-back) but it comes with a strange black dial: The hands are that of the white "Prime", no numbers (not even at 12) , only strings and dots exactly as on the white Prime, and no model designation on the dial, only "Zenith". I cant' find pictures of this exact dial, but it looks high quality. Does somebody have any info on this one? Trying to get a picture from the seller.

Best Regards,

Acme


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## sempervivens

Acme said:


> A quick question:
> 
> I have the opportunity to purchase a Zenith cal. 420 modell (90/01.0010.420 on the case-back) but it comes with a strange black dial: The hands are that of the white "Prime", no numbers (not even at 12) , only strings and dots exactly as on the white Prime, and no model designation on the dial, only "Zenith". I cant' find pictures of this exact dial, but it looks high quality. Does somebody have any info on this one? Trying to get a picture from the seller.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Acme


Sounds like a model that doesn't exist. Maybe a white dial that was redone in black.


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## Acme

sempervivens said:


> Sounds like a model that doesn't exist. Maybe a white dial that was redone in black.


That's my guess too. Here is a snapshot. The dial is identical to the white Prime, the date window is also white. Actually I kind of like this black version, it is highly detailed and looks professionally done. I think it will stay that way. Maybe I will be looking for a replcement dial online, here is one now:

Zenith Prime Chronograph El Primero Zifferblatt weiß 01-0010-4.20 | eBay









Best Regards,

Acme


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## Acme

Actually I might look for a black date-ring instead.


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## Hartmut Richter

That dial has probably been tampered with! Structurally, it looks like the dial for the silver dial reference: only a 12, the rest of the hours have just markers and the markers are of the same type, plus the date is in the right place. The rest can be - and probably has been - "edited": dial colour, tachymetric scale, three minute markes on the minute totalizer... On the whole, it is (quoting Sir Humphrey Appleby*) "novel" or even "droll" but putting it on the market is somewhat "courageous"!

Hartmut Richter


(*For the unitiated: he was the chief civil servant assigned to the "Department of Administrative Affairs" in "Yes, Minister", later the head of the civil service in "Yes, Prime Minister". "Droll" and "Novel" are civil service speak for "Stupid", and "Courageous" denotes a decision that is likely to lose you the next election! Or here: ruin your next sale.....)


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## Acme

Unfortunately Zenith charges 150EUR for "research" for infos like this. (I had a similar question regarding a white dial German Army watch, that according to the seller, was originally produced for paramedic use during WWII. I could not verify that).

The replacement dial is cheaper than the info...


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## Hartmut Richter

Too true!!

Hartmut Richter


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## iceblade

Is this real deal? I need your help before pulling the trigger tomorrow. Thanks. http://www.passions.com.sg/v2/watch...manual-winding-ref010500420-steel#watch-order


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## Hartmut Richter

It is indeed. With a Cal. 420Z (as opposed to Cal. 420), it is probably among the last hand wound El Primeros made, at least up to date (i.e. until they resume production, if they ever will). It's from 1999 or later. Good luck in your decision.

Quick edit: the watch has one previous owner and seems to have been NOS when first bought (in 2014 - distinctly after the last of these were made). As such, it will need to have been serviced recently or it will need a service now since 10+ years since the last one (at time of production) would be too much. I would check whether it has been done recently (get some reliable proof!!) and if not, haggle down the price. Good luck!

Hartmut Richter


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## iceblade

Thanks art it. Just checked servicing cost for that 420 is USD 650. Will haggle otherwise I won't go. Cheers


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## iceblade

Hi Hartmut. Unfortunately the seller won't reduce. So no go. You are right. Plus not that comfortable agreeing on pre owned without physically checking 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KlausD

I just bought an El Primero HW. Finger's crossed it's in good shape. Does this movement have to be serviced by Zenith? $650 is reasonable but I don't have a Zenith AD that close to me and I rather not wait months for service if I don't have to. Also on this topic does Zenith have a US service center?

The more I read about Zenith the more and more I realize what a mess this brand is lol.


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## Hartmut Richter

A mess? Why should that be?

As for whether you need an AD, what you actually need is an authorised service centre. Zenith have a list of them worldwide on their website.

If the watch doesn't require parts replacement, you could have it serviced by any decent watchmnaker. The trouble is that not all of them will take the watch - some will refuse point blank since there is the chance of it requiring some parts (and there is no way of finding that out without the watchmaker putting at least some time and effort in, which might not be paid for). But if you can find someone who is willing to take on the job, by all means go there instead of Zenith.

Hartmut Richter


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## jermyzy

Hi all, I'm late to the party but have this beauty incoming! Just won it off eBay for a very reasonable sum IMO. I've been wanting a handwind chronograph for awhile now, missed a chance to buy a NOS El Primero HW many years ago and have regretted it since. Unfortunately it's got the dreaded hand-engraved 420"Z", but I can live with that. Will post pics when it arrives, but here is a picture from the auction. Also looking for a new strap, was originally going to replace with alligator strap, but wondering if a canvas strap might work (like this: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/NWOP-20MM-G...HBAND-BRACELET-STRAP-FOR-ZENITH-/132964540665) since I plan on wearing for casual use. Can somebody please confirm width at lug is 20mm for this watch? This is my 5th Zenith, when do I get to become an ambassador?


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## sempervivens

Congratulations! I think the lugsize should be 20 mm. However you will soon find out and then you can tell us. Also looking forward to some more pictures when you have received it.


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## jermyzy

Look what arrived today!!! Loving it!!!
View attachment 14067277


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## sempervivens

Excellent!


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## Vals Ogard

Hi to all,

I´m new here. I´ll show my Prime - very proud of it.

Regards to all!


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## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum and congratulations with this classic Zenith.


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## Samfre

I have been looking for a good white dial El Primero HW for awhile. I saw some claim the dial is white but some claim as ivory, so is it there are two different white dial?


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## jermyzy

Is it normal for the winding to be stiff on this movement? Just got it back from service and it is very stiff when winding.


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## sempervivens

No, I never noticed it being stiff to wind.


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## ryanpenal0sa

Bumping this thread with my Zenith Prime


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## texaspledge

Just picked up this mint example NOS from a jeweler in Italy. Box papers, even had stickers still on the case!

I'd been searching for one for last 2 months in good condition snd had pretty much givem up hope. Can't believe my luck!









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## sempervivens

Do post some pictures of original box, papers, strap, etc. if you have them.


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## texaspledge

Sure here's a couple.









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## sempervivens

Very nice. That does look like an original box from the 1990's, and the original ostrich strap.


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## ryanpenal0sa

Black/White vs Color









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## Barge




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## bnorton838

Finally got of my grails 

Anyone know if there are half links for this bracelet? I'm stuck between sizes...


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## Hartmut Richter

WOW - lovely watch. An early LVMH period "Class Sport" in the hand wound version!

Sorry, don't know about the bracelet..... :-(

Hartmut Richter


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## georges zaslavsky

great write up, thanks for sharing


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## sempervivens

Blimey, that lume is still excellent after twenty years b-)


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## ryanpenal0sa

Zenith Prime









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## ryanpenal0sa

Bumping this thread!









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## Longjean

Mine came with box and papers but no bracelet, I assume that it was sold separately to maximise value. The rear view window appears to be mineral glass as it is complete with scratches.

The lume is amazing, still bright in the morning. I wonder what Zenith used back then, ?Luminova?

This one is only 18 years old (with the "z").


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## Hartmut Richter

Nice watch! Class Sport model from the early Nataf era. Yes, by that time, they were using superluminova. That is also confirmed by the dial (no "T"s around the "SWISS MADE").

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

I think super-luminova was used from the beginning, in 1994, also for the Zenith Prime. There nothing is mentioned around the 'swiss made', but for the HW model, there are dots around the 'swiss made'. Same difference can be observed with some Rainbow models. I think it is always the same luminous material, super-luminova. 

@ Longjean: cal 420 Z was already introduced in 1998/99, so your watch could be a few years older than you think. In fact, as soon as Nataf became the CEO, the handwound models went out. The last year when they were featured in the catalog is 2001, I think.


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## ryanpenal0sa

Happy Sunday!









Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Longjean

sempervivens said:


> I think super-luminova was used from the beginning, in 1994, also for the Zenith Prime. There nothing is mentioned around the 'swiss made', but for the HW model, there are dots around the 'swiss made'. Same difference can be observed with some Rainbow models. I think it is always the same luminous material, super-luminova.
> 
> @ Longjean: cal 420 Z was already introduced in 1998/99, so your watch could be a few years older than you think. In fact, as soon as Nataf became the CEO, the handwound models went out. The last year when they were featured in the catalog is 2001, I think.


Although I think Zenith had stopped movement serial numbers they put one on the HW for some reason. 158369 from guarantee card and movement beside balance.

First sold March2002. Instructions for the moon phase model start from 2000


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## sempervivens

Going by the movement number and comparing it with known movement numbers for the Chronomaster, it was probably produced in 2000. And so it was first sold only two years later, not bad.


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## Hartmut Richter

The El Primero has movement serial numbers that relate only to the El Primero series. Up to 1970 or so, the movement serial numbers were applied serially to practically all in house movement s (i.e. excluding chronographs from the 1940s and 1940s that were made by Martel to order). The reason why the EP has movement serial numbers is probably COSC testing - it is mandatory that the movemnt has an identifying number to link it to the certificate and, even if that particular movement isn't tested, enough of them were at that time that they likely didn't bother separating the two types. My ChronoMaster from 1996 has a serial number (92154) but that is, after all, COSC tested.

Hartmut Richter


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## Longjean

Thanks for the additional information sempervivans and Hartmut, neither the Prime nor the HW is in the 1999 UK catalogue.


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## sempervivens

True, neither the Prime not the HW did receive much catalogue attention.

The Zenith Prime for instance was not featured in the 1997/98 catalogue, although it must have been available at the the time.

Only the 18 K Pocketmaster Prime was shown in the catalogue.

The Zenith Prime wristwatch was AFAIK only presented in a 1995 brochure.

The Zenith HW was also first presented in a 2000 brochure, and then ca. 2000 and 2001 in one or two catalogues as well.



Longjean said:


> Thanks for the additional information sempervivans and Hartmut, neither the Prime nor the HW is in the 1999 UK catalogue.


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## Longjean

sempervivens said:


> I think super-luminova was used from the beginning, in 1994, also for the Zenith Prime. There nothing is mentioned around the 'swiss made', but for the HW model, there are dots around the 'swiss made'. Same difference can be observed with some Rainbow models. I think it is always the same luminous material, super-luminova.
> 
> @ Longjean: cal 420 Z was already introduced in 1998/99, so your watch could be a few years older than you think. In fact, as soon as Nataf became the CEO, the handwound models went out. The last year when they were featured in the catalog is 2001, I think.


 The reference to the dots round the SWISS MADE prompted me to have a closer look and it appears that the white and black dials are different.

The white dials have the dots inside of the minute line and slightly below the top of the line as is the SWISS MADE, see post#169
The black dials have the dots outside of the minute line and the SWISS MADE is above the top of the lines, see post#163.

Further more the printing of the tachymetre scale is different, white small; black large.

Yes lockdown boredom here but one can see where redial paranoia comes from, watch companies seen to make subtle changes all the time.


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## Stuart70

Hi,
I have lurked for a while and decided to join. I have a 01.0500.420 with a black dial with the 420Z movement. Which I love. I saw an appendix from Rossler (El Primero) which said that there was a titanium version of the prime 90.0016.420. I don’t have the book so was just wondering If anyone had pictures? According to Rossler there were 150 made or is this like looking for a unicorn?


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to the Watchuseek Zenith forum! Unfortunately, I can't find the watch you have referenced (in Titanium). I also have Rössler (the German version) and maybe that's a translation error since it literally "isn't in my book". Secondly, titanium as a case material should have a 95 according to the list in Rössler (Page 43), not 90. There is the Ref. xx.0016.420 in Rössler (Page 274) but it is the 01.0016.420 in steel. Or did you find that information elsewhere in Rössler?

Hartmut Richter


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## Stuart70

Hi,
Thanks for you reply. The book that was referenced was ‘ El Primero Der Chronograph. Alle Modelle Von 1969 bis 2001.’ By Rossler not the standard Zenith isbn 978-88-6208-069-9.English language version. Of the two 
I am not sure which is the latest text.


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## Stuart70

The other text had an isbn 978-3941-5399-69.


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## Longjean

Rossler p 274 (English translation ) has a few mistakes. Top right photo Has HW on the watch dial not Prime, the year 1994 is almost certainly wrong and I am almost certain that mine has a sapphire crystal with anti-reflective coating. Dial does not look like other silver plated Zeniths that I have seen and is a different colour from the Prime beside it, more of a cream/ off white colour than silver.

I may be wrong or something was lost in the translation.


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## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for letting me know - I probably ought to look out for that one!

Hartmut Richter


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## Pablox

Thanks to all the contributors to this thread. There seems to be very little information and interest on this Zenith model.
I have been saving for a while and my buyers needle has been swinging back and forth between this and the Omega FOIS. The worst thing is about being so indecisive is that whatever one i go for a week later be wishing i chose the other 🤦🏻‍♂️.
I like the Prime for its classic vintage looks and hand wound el primero movement. I have some questions and would appreciate it if anyone could answer them.
Being a high beat movement does this mean shorter service intervals? I always have assumed that a 5 year interval is based on daily wear so 50% wear = 10 year interval, is this correct?
Being a model that had such a short run and the movement was discontinued is it likely that parts are scarce? That said if i buy should i get it serviced immediately?
Is the movement delicate? Could i wear this to work daily?
Thanks in advance.


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## sempervivens

Specific parts such as the mainspring may be rarer to find but most parts are shared with the El Primero and as such not scarce; a few parts of the El Primero which have been changed (redesigned) in 1999 are becoming scarcer though.

Being high beat does not mean it needs more service. Being handwound it may need less service than an automatic watch. It is possible that you could stretch the need of service to ten years if you wear it only half the time.

It is not a delicate movement. The El Primero is refined design but still a rugged movement that can last a lifetime (and more than that) if cared for properly.

Of course you could wear this to work daily.


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## sempervivens

Small update for this thread regarding* production numbers for the Zenith Prime*:

*Stainless steel models*:

Ref. 01.0012.420 (black dial) 2200 were produced in 1993-98.

Ref. 01.0016.420 (white dial) 4045 were produced in 1993-98.

*Gold plated models:*

Ref. 20.0010.420 (silver dial with Roman numerals) 1190 were produced in 1993-95.

Ref. 20.0013.420 (white dial) 1860 were produced in 1993-95.

This information is taken from '_El Primero - Der Chronograph_' ( a book by Manfred Rössler) (*)

Unfortunately there is no information for the models in 18 K gold, except the

*Zenith Prime PocketMaster*:

Ref. 30.0023.420 (white dial) 495 were produced in 1993-94.

(*) Rössler reports that there also exists a Zenith Prime in titanium, of which only 150 pieces were made in 1996!


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## ADillon

I really like the HW and Primes but I wish Zenith had taken the time to do some more decorating of the movement, since it was more visbable with the rotor removed. It is a cool variation and neat watch. I liked that they offered it and it owuld be cool if they brought the option back. Zenith, on a whole, should offer more hand wind versions. I just bought the port royal hand wind and it is one of the few models that offered it.


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## Nanameow

sempervivens said:


> View attachment 353707
> View attachment 353706
> 
> here is a Zenith Prime in 18 K gold


Hi Sem, do the buckle is in 18k gold or gold plate only?
I found 1 in Chrono24 looks interesting!


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## sempervivens

A solid gold buckle is rare but possible.


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## siroque

Happy weekends ^_^


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## Barge

All the best, trying a new strap. Is it a corky idea?


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## pyiyha

Here's mine...


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## NE_Colour_U_Like

I just received this beauty today! It oozes class, and makes for the perfect dress/casual chrono with its small, thin case. Plus, the subdials still manage to be highly legible. I don't know where you can find a better chrono for the money than these handwound Zenith's. [photos courtesy of the Chrono24 sales listing]


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## NE_Colour_U_Like

Oh yeah, when setting the time on these cal 420's, *should the crown put up noticeably more resistance than a modern 3-hander* such as ETA 2824, SW 200, or Miyota 9015? Mine does, so I want to know if it's normal or if I should get it checked out. Thanks!


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## Longjean

Mine is exactly like that. I set it this morning for the week.


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## NE_Colour_U_Like

Longjean said:


> Mine is exactly like that. I set it this morning for the week.


Ok, great. I'm guessing it might be due to the gears having additional teeth to support 36,000 vph rather than the more common 28,800 or 21,600. Also, the hands have zero back play, so this movement probably has tighter tolerances than the others in my collection.


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## Hartmut Richter

No, it has nothing to do with the teeth on the gears. My Cal. 410 is exactly the same - the stiffest watch I have with regard to setting the time. But this is actually a good sign. On vintage watches, sometimes, you can set the time all too easily and it is exactly these watches that tend to mysteriously lose time. What has happened is that the cannon pinion has worn out and become loose and now slips as the mechanism moves - some friction in the setting mechanism will "detain" the minute and hour hands while the rest of the mechanism ticks along and keeps decent time. If the cannon pinion grips the centre gear really tightly, it is a pain to set but it certainly prevents the mechanism slipping this way.

Hartmut Richter


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## NE_Colour_U_Like

Zenith Prime vs. my Valjoux 7750:


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## Hartmut Richter

Yes, there is nearly 1.5mm between the El Primero Cal. 400 and the Valjoux 7750 - and there is even more between the latter and the Prime Cal. 420..... 

Hartmut Richter


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## Acme

Congratulations on this lovely piece! I personally love the Prime, it gets plenty of wrist-time! I am sure that this is the thinnes 36.000 VPH column wheel chronograph ever 

Here is another comparison with a 146 HP:

























The Prime is a lot thinner! On the other hand, the full glass-back of the 146HP wins the looks for me... 
Regards, Acme


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## sempervivens

Congratulations from me also. Sorely missing the 18 k gold version in my collection..
Although I do have the 18 k Prime Pocketmaster.


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