# Missing also EPOC live? Lets create some pressure on Suunto!



## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

I need you Help!
If you are also missing the EPOC live function, lets create so pressure on Suunto.
I tryed to find out why the Ambit and Ambit 2 is not able to show EPOC live and send some mails to Suunto.
EPOC live seams to be a political issue for Suunto.
Have a lok to what Suunto support answered:
Question was "Why was the T6C able to show EPOC live and the Ambit and Ambit 2 is not able to?

1.
"Thank you for contacting Suunto Customer Support.
Thank you for your feedback on Suunto Ambit. Currently this feature is not available but your feed back has been forwarded to our R&D department for future development/improvement of our products. Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you have any other feedback on our products."

*Thanks for this answer Suunto!!!!

*2. 
*"*thank you very much for your e-mail. As far as I can see you forwarded your request to our Ambit team. I can assure you that your feedback has been noticed. The reason why you did not receive any answers from them is that they are always looking for new features and suggestions and working on finding a way to implement the best options into new softwares. Thank you for your understanding. Let me know if you have any other questions."
*
May Suunto is not reading customer questions :-(

*3. 
"Thank you for your feedback on Suunto Ambit. Currently this feature is not available but your feed back has been forwarded to our R&D department for future development/improvement of our products. Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you have any other feedback on our products.

4. 
"thank you very much for your e-mail. As far as I can see you forwarded your request to our Ambit team. I can assure you that your feedback has been noticed. The reason why you did not receive any answers from them is that they are always looking for new features and suggestions and working on finding a way to implement the best options into new softwares. Thank you for your understanding. Let me know if you have any other questions. Regards"

Please help and join my Movesscount group EPOC LIVE UPGRADE PETITION - Group at Movescount.com
Lets force Suunto to react if you are also missing EPOC live would be also great to have EPOC for APPs.


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## paul1928 (Jul 27, 2013)

What do you find EPOC data more useful for than PTE?


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## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

EPOC is a lot more useful then PTE!
Please have a look http://ns.suunto.com/pdf/t6_Training_Guidebook_EN.pdf
Would be real useful to see the EPOC live level profile as a graph and the EPOC live level on the watch.
I do not understand why Suunto is no more longer supporting EPOC live :-(.
You can see EPOC in Movescount, so all the data must be available.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Ambit can show Training Effect "live", which is more meaningful anyway than EPOC. Oddly though, you can see EPOC, but not the TE zones, in the graphs. Just the total TE in the summary section. I would at least like to see the Training Effect Zones like you can see in First Beat Athlete.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

alex68 said:


> EPOC is a lot more useful then PTE!
> Please have a look http://ns.suunto.com/pdf/t6_Training_Guidebook_EN.pdf
> Would be real useful to see the EPOC live level profile as a graph and the EPOC live level on the watch.
> I do not understand why Suunto is no more longer supporting EPOC live :-(.
> You can see EPOC in Movescount, so all the data must be available.


EPOC is used directly to measure PTE. EPOC by itself has little meaning for most people. That's probably why the don't have the feature live anymore. But PTE is a very meaningful measurement for everyone (as long as they have their parameters set up correctly).


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## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

PET does not help me. I am doing Mountain Bike Marathon races.
PET is may useful for training but not for races.
If you are doing long distance races EPOC is a lot more useful to dispose you power for a race.
For me it would be really helpful to see the EPOC graph while racing. 
When I have a look to the EPOC graph of a race I did the area under the graph does not variate so much. 
EPOC live and a EPOC graph could help not to over pace at the beginning of a race.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

alex68 said:


> PET does not help me. I am doing Mountain Bike Marathon races.
> PET is may useful for training but not for races.
> If you are doing long distance races EPOC is a lot more useful to dispose you power for a race.
> For me it would be really helpful to see the EPOC graph while racing.
> ...


Oh I see, that makes sense then. For long moves when the EPOC goes up and down it can be very useful to know.


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## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

bruceames said:


> Oh I see, that makes sense then. For long moves when the EPOC goes up and down it can be very useful to know.


PTE does only move up but never down like a drag indicator do you think this is a useful function?
Don´t you think it would be more useful to have an actual indicator? EPOC live was able to do this.


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

OK. Curse you guys. 
I figured "How hard can it be to roll my own EPOC?"
You've got TRIMP (or some multiple if it) boosting the number up every second, and a natual logarithmic decay pulling it down every second. 

So I wrote a 7 line App - using the published TRIMP equation times a multiplier I got from a TRIMP vs EPOC FirstBeat graph, and guessed at a decay factor using Wikipedia and another firstbeat graph. 

I'm cursing you because my Ambit1 doesn't support the exponential function which the TRIMP formula requires. And so to checkout and 'calibrate' the code I'm writing for YOU, I *had* to go buy an Ambit2. 

A Sapphire because it fits better than a black. 

If I get a myEPOC result that looks better than half baked after a couple hard runs, I'll let you know. 

If there are other factors, eg due to Activity Class and other stuff, that will take some time and multiple people to decipher. 

p.s. aside from getting Suunto.exp(x) and Suunto.pow(x,y), I really do like the watch. A very nice step up from the Ambit1 in all regards. 

p.p.s: if there is a formula for EPOC published out there, pls send me the link.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

alex68 said:


> PTE does only move up but never down like a drag indicator do you think this is a useful function?
> Don´t you think it would be more useful to have an actual indicator? EPOC live was able to do this.


Yes, I think Training Effect is useful for training. Why do you think it's called training effect?

Very few people even know what EPOC means, much less how to interpret the reading.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Is the T6c/T6d the only watch available that will give you live EPOC? If the measurement is so important, then just use that watch instead and pair it with a pod for distance. Problem solved. The Ambit is not the end all be all.


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## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

@ bruceames
I do not want to tell you how to train thats on the issue!
At the moment I am using for my training the Garmin 810 and the Ambit 2. I do not want to use a 3rd device.
The issue is that EPOC is measured while you train otherwise the Ambit wont be able to show PTE because PTE is based on EPOC. Correct me if I am wrong.
I asked Suunto service why the Ambit is not able to show EPOC live.
The answers I got show that Suunto is not willing to support EPOC live and to tell anyone why.
This is the reason why I want to create some pressure to Suunto.

Here are the answers I got from Suunto.

_Thank you for contacting Suunto Customer Support. This is an automated response confirming we have received your email. One of our support agents will get back to you in maximum 72 hours. In some particular case it might take longer if solving the issue requires involvement of a specialist from another Suunto team

Thank you for contacting Suunto Customer Support.

Thank you for your feedback on Suunto__ Ambit. Currently this feature is not available but your feed back has been forwarded to our R&D department for future development/improvement of our products. Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you have any other feedback on our products.
_

Remember I asked for EPOC live for the Ambit 2!

_the EPOC function couldn't be added to the Ambit functions anymore due to limited programable memory. The Ambit's functions have already grown by over 50% from the launching day. Should you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to contact us._

Remember what Suunto was try to tell the customers to update the "old" Ambit 1.

Thats the reason why I want to create pressure to Suunto


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

Just to be the historian for a moment, here is a thread from earlier this year on EPOC vs PTE. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f233/epoc-levels-865068.html

Tastes great. Less Filling. Tastes Great! Less Filling!
No... go fix your Movescount settings!!


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

Here's round 1 of the roll-your-own EPOC.
It has the almost -)) the right shape. I need to adjust some scaling, because myEPOC is about 1/2 of Suunto's EPOC and to tweak the slopes and decay. It'll be trial and error from this point.
And at the end of the run when I lay down to drop my HR, I think the strap lost good contact... which Suunto's graph handled well, but the App did not.








with HR overlay








Maybe in a week I'll have a post-able revision.


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

I've made some encouraging progress.
The Movescount graphs (like above) have the Suunto EPOC and my EPOC on two different scales.
In reality, that move above looked like this when plotted with all the values on the same axis. 
Red = Suunto's EPOC values
Blue = myEPOC original values





​The shape was'ok' but the absolute values were way off.
So, in excel, I tweaked the equation's constants and until I got a better match to Suunto's EPOC. One example is shown in *Green *

Here is a first very short run with the rev1 constants.





​The absolute values do match.

But I believe I need some other entirely factor into the equaltion to get it to match over longer runs.
You can se the creeping divergence in the excel simulation of the rev1 constants here.





​And one intrepid WUS member has forwarded me some patent links which do seem suggest an additional time-based factor. 
So I'll dig into that over the next week.

But I do wonder, other than just trying to correlate to Suunto's graph, how accurate I need to make this. The literature seems to say the "predicted EPOC" (e.g. based on HR) has pretty wide error bars as far as correlating to the physically measured EPOC (by respiratory means) or to blood lactate. And I don't even really know what all that means. And no, I'm not going back to college to find out.





​


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Great work OR, looks like you made a lot of progress. I think it's probably good enough as it is, even if you don't find that additional factor. And as you say it's really only an estimate anyway and it's possible that your graph is just as accurate or even more so than the actual one. I will definitely use your app in my next hiking season.


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## PabloAlarcon (May 18, 2013)

great work orwatching, it's great to have users that contribute in such way. I believe T6 series could "tell" you how mauch longer you need to excersise at current intensity to reach next Training Effect zone, wright? would it be posible to create such app for Ambit1, 2 but for to PTE?


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

PabloAlarcon said:


> great work orwatching, it's great to have users that contribute in such way. I believe T6 series could "tell" you how mauch longer you need to excersise at current intensity to reach next Training Effect zone, wright? would it be posible to create such app for Ambit1, 2 but for to PTE?


Yes, I think it can be done. At least roughly.
The 'from first principles' approach I think is all out there in the Suunto and Firstbeat publications... e.g. the threshholds for how much EPOC for a given Activity class, etc. Or whatever the factors are.
But also, more simply, just extrapolate PTE values. e.g. if the last 0.1 PTE took 7 minutes, you could assume the next 0.1 will also take 7 minutes, perhaps nudged up or down based on the very recent EPOC/HR rates.

But, sorry, not on my list to do this month.


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

Specifically... this is is the kind of graph that you need to turn EPOC into PTE. I dunno if it's exactly what Suunto is using right now in Movescount. 
And I believe Activity Class is available to Apps... so indeed time-to-next PTE can be roughly done once we have an EPOC number.
If I were to do it I would probably blend the two approaches I mentioned above...


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

or_watching said:


> I've made some encouraging progress.
> The Movescount graphs (like above) have the Suunto EPOC and my EPOC on two different scales.
> In reality, that move above looked like this when plotted with all the values on the same axis.
> Red = Suunto's EPOC values
> ...


I'm cyclocross racing tomorrow which typically means 45 to 50 minutes of hell! I normally average 90%+ MHR with peaks up to 98%. Could I have a copy of this app to try out and report back?


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

OK.
Caveat emptor... it's at the highest HRR% and longer durations that it seems to have some 'trouble' matching Suunto's EPOC.
At my modest jogging HR it seems to do 'ok' (like within 10%).





​
But I'm confident that it will go up when you 'go' and then come down when you 'don't go'. 
Have fun and show me your graph. [HR/EPOC/myEPOC]

Oh.. and your HR-strap-contact quality matters! it can't do any post-processing of missing data like MC can.


```
prefix = "myEPOC";
RESULT = Previous;
HRR = (SUUNTO_USER_MAX_HR-SUUNTO_USER_REST_HR);
if (Suunto.mod(SUUNTO_DURATION,30) == 0 && SUUNTO_DURATION >0)  {
    Zone = SUUNTO_HR_AVG[30]-SUUNTO_USER_REST_HR;

/* Use Bannister eqn for 0.5minutes with modified exponent based to 'match' Movescount EPOC shape */
    TRIMPAdder = 0.5*Zone/HRR* 0.64 * Suunto.exp(4.6 * Zone/HRR );
 
/* Compute myEPOC with multiplier for TRIMP and EPOC decay factor */
    RESULT =(Previous+ 0.51*TRIMPAdder/2)*0.96 + 0.51*TRIMPAdder/2;
    Previous = RESULT; 
}
```


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

or_watching said:


> OK.
> Caveat emptor... it's at the highest HRR% and longer durations that it seems to have some 'trouble' matching Suunto's EPOC.
> At my modest jogging HR it seems to do 'ok' (like within 10%).View attachment 1261887
> ​
> ...


Unfortunately I can't get this to run and I need to go to my race in the next 30 mins!


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

Bummer. Did cut/paste it? Did you add the variables to the variables section?

I got a great match on my run this morning using that version of the equation.


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

eeun said:


> Unfortunately I can't get this to run


Oh... and just in case you missed my first post on this thread... the app will only work this an Ambit2 or 2s, because of the exponent function I'm using.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

I would like to get this EPOC app into my Ambit2. I know how to download apps from the app zone, but how do I get the one above since it hasn't been added yet?


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

or_watching said:


> Oh... and just in case you missed my first post on this thread... the app will only work this an Ambit2 or 2s, because of the exponent function I'm using.


I used TRIMPAdder as the variable, is that correct? And yes in my Ambit 2


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## mondoshawan (May 14, 2012)

eeun said:


> I used TRIMPAdder as the variable, is that correct? And yes in my Ambit 2


and i think "Previous" is a variable too&#8230;


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## mondoshawan (May 14, 2012)

The variables to get this code running are:

Previous
TrimpAdder
HRR
Zone

and don't forget to set them to 0


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## mondoshawan (May 14, 2012)

bruceames said:


> I would like to get this EPOC app into my Ambit2. I know how to download apps from the app zone, but how do I get the one above since it hasn't been added yet?


create a new private app

create your own variables with value 0:

Previous
TrimpAdder
HRR
Zone

"enable advanced editing"

paste or_watching's code:



> prefix = "myEPOC";
> RESULT = Previous;
> HRR = (SUUNTO_USER_MAX_HR-SUUNTO_USER_REST_HR);
> if (Suunto.mod(SUUNTO_DURATION,30) == 0 && SUUNTO_DURATION >0) {
> ...


save that app


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

mondoshawan said:


> The variables to get this code running are:
> 
> Previous
> TrimpAdder
> ...


Hi. Thanks for posting these details.

It is too bad that we can can't privately share drafts of apps. Eg by link. Cuz currently once an app is Public, it shows up on the Search results for Everyone.

And I don't want to set this app out into the wild yet.

Anyway, I am keen to see where it works well, and where it doesn't.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Thanks. I uploaded and it seems to be working, although I only tested about 3 minutes. I'll report back with graph after my run tomorrow.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

or_watching said:


> Hi. Thanks for posting these details.
> 
> It is too bad that we can can't privately share drafts of apps. Eg by link. Cuz currently once an app is Public, it shows up on the Search results for Everyone.
> 
> ...


I'll be happy to be one of your testers, although I don't know if my run results will be of much use, since EPOC is constantly rising throughout. My long hikes is where it will be useful to me but I won't do any until next spring.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

I was wondering if there's a way to measure the actual intensity (in terms of recovery time needed) of a long event with EPOC ups and downs. Would the total EPOC gain be of any use? i.e, pretending the EPOC graph was an altitude graph, and calculating to the total "ascent".


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

Help!

Still can't get the app to run!


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

bruceames said:


> I was wondering if there's a way to measure the actual intensity (in terms of recovery time needed) of a long event with EPOC ups and downs. Would the total EPOC gain be of any use? i.e, pretending the EPOC graph was an altitude graph, and calculating to the total "ascent".


"total EPOC gain" is what TRIMP is.
TRIMP just goes up.
EPOC merely adds a decay factor "0.95" that brings the number down when your HR drops.

In my EPOC formula I modified the factors in the original Bannister TRIMP formula to get the size of value to match Suunto.
And the original TRIMP formula is on a per-minute basis. Since my apps is grabbing 30seconds of HR data at a time, I have a 0.5 in front.
TRIMPAdder = 0.5*Zone/HRR* 0.64 * Suunto.exp(4.6 * Zone/HRR );

if you wanted just the "up" and wanted to match the original TRIMP scale you'd change the app to this


```
prefix = "TRIMP";
RESULT = Previous;
HRR = (SUUNTO_USER_MAX_HR-SUUNTO_USER_REST_HR);
if (Suunto.mod(SUUNTO_DURATION,30) == 0 && SUUNTO_DURATION >0)  {
    Zone = SUUNTO_HR_AVG[30]-SUUNTO_USER_REST_HR;

/* Use Bannister eqn for 0.5minutes */
    TRIMPAdder = 0.5*Zone/HRR* 0.64 * Suunto.exp(1.92 * Zone/HRR );
 
/* Add the incremental 30-seconds worth of TRIMP */
    Previous =Previous+ TRIMPAdder;
}
```
... but I haven't actually put this in my watch... so hopefully no typos... consider it an "illustration of the concept."

and all that said, Suunto (and Firstbeat too) seem to think that Recovery should be based on EPOC, not TRIMP. And they've got all those white papers out there comparing EPOC and TRIMP and blood lactate levels, etc. Probably they have a reason. And they've got the PhD's. All I've got is a watch, some shoes and some Advil.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

or_watching said:


> and all that said, Suunto (and Firstbeat too) seem to think that Recovery should be based on EPOC, not TRIMP. And they've got all those white papers out there comparing EPOC and TRIMP and blood lactate levels, etc. Probably they have a reason. And they've got the PhD's. All I've got is a watch, some shoes and some Advil.


Thank you, OR.  I will put this in my watch later today and see how it works.

As for recovery time, I think Movescount also uses some other factor because on my long hikes my EPOC is lower than on a 30 minute run, yet says my recovery time is 120 hours (vs. only about 6 hours for the run). The EPOC on a 15 hour hike with an average HR of 126, is only 50. On the 30 minute run with an average of 158, it is 70. But the total EPOC gain on that hike is over 300. Comparing 300 to 70 seems proportionally right as to hard much harder that hike was. The EPOC score of 50 on that hike (or the PTE of only 2.6) has no useful value.

It doesn't make sense to base recovery time solely on EPOC. For example you could run all day long, getting your EPOC up to 80, waiting until it decays to 10, then repeat the process 5-6 times. Your EPOC would still be 80, but you would be wasted for several days after an effort like that.

The TRIMP formula is EXACTLY what I'm looking for. I've always wanted to have a single measure of how hard my hikes are, and I think this formula reflects that quite well. I'll let you know if it works. Thanks again!


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

bruceames said:


> The TRIMP formula is EXACTLY what I'm looking for. I've always wanted to have a single measure of how hard my hikes are


Calories also go one-way up. 
Just yet another scale.


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## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

Got feed back from Suunto.
"Please be informed that we have checked with our development team and most probably, we will bring real time EPOC next spring."
OR_ what you have done is outstanding!
Looking foreword to next spring!


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

or_watching said:


> Calories also go one-way up.
> Just yet another scale.


Calories also go up during rest so they tell me very little in terms of how much exercise I really did, or how hard a hike was. On my 15 hour hike MC says I burned 5600 calories, while only 460 on the 30 minutes run. Comparing them directly you have the hikeover 12 times harder (5600/460 = 12.2), which is way too high. Even at rest my body would burn more than 460 calories in just a few hours, so it's not a good tool for comparing two moves with vastly different lengths and average intensity.

However the TRIMP formula removes rest/non-exercise from the equation, so making a wider comparison possible.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Here's the graph of the run I just did. MyEPOC rose very quickly and then slowly after the 10 minute mark. MyEPOC was 58.5 and EPOC was 35 at that point. So after that MyEPOC and EPOC rose by about the same amount. TRIMP rose in a nearly linear fashion.









EPOC: 63
MyEPOC: 85.5
TRIMP: 56


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

Thanks for being a beta tester!
Eyeballing your graph numbers I put it in my spreadsheet tester. I could get it to approximate match if I picked HRmax as 185 and HRrest as 60. Is that about right? (those are important parts of the whole deal).

I have another formula I was fiddling with, guess at what one of the patent paper said, but haven't tried in my watch. You can see in this plot, that it matches your data set well. It reduces the exponent coefficient so it doesn't jack up the myEPOC value so high in response to high HR% of HRR. But instead adds in a factor that grows with run time. It's not in App form yet, I want to check it on paper some more than then maybe try it this weekend.


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

alex68 said:


> Got feed back from Suunto.
> "Please be informed that we have checked with our development team and most probably, we will bring real time EPOC next spring."


Excellent! I should have my version fully tuned shortly thereafter.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

I have my max/min HR set at 190/50.


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

bruceames said:


> I have my max/min HR set at 190/50.


OK. that means I need to boost up one number a bit. 
I can get almost any single outing to fit with at least one formula I've got. But I can't get one formula to fit every outing. 

I can already tell that even this formula won't match every case I have in excel.

And the new equation in excel is get-ting prett-y mess-y.

```
=AA$1*AA$2
           *(EXP(AA$3
              *(AVERAGE($H7:$H36)-$K$2)/
                ($K$1*EXP(-0.0013*$C36)-$K$2-1*EXP(0.03*(AVERAGE($H7:$H36)-$K$2)/($K$1*EXP(-0.0013*$C36)-$K$2)))
             )-1)
           *0.3
           *(AVERAGE($H7:$H36)-$K$2)
             /($K$1-$K$2)
```
4 exponents! that's getting crazy.
Maybe have to release it as a "Beta" and leave it as that, since Suunto apparently has it on their agenda now.

I think I'll go back to my Waypoint Bearing app. That's getting pretty close to as good as I can make it without Suunto giving apps access to actual waypoint Lat/Long.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Thanks for all your efforts in this, OR. Mine is not a very good sample anyway as it's too short with no down spikes, so you need more data.


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## Yves-Marie (Dec 11, 2013)

Alex - I registered just to say : Thanks !
Yves-Marie
PS 
And bravo for having Suunto listening - I couldn't get out of them minimum voltage for CR2032 batteries... Answer was more or less when batteries are weak ...they should be changed...


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## SiRoB1 (Sep 26, 2013)

alex68 said:


> Got feed back from Suunto.
> "Please be informed that we have checked with our development team and most probably, we will bring real time EPOC next spring."


Don't know if this will arrive soon.
Otherwise, i can make an app that show the corresponding EPOC for a given SUUNTO_PEAKTE if some are interested.
Not sure if it will be useful...

EDIT:
As i finished the app here it is: EPOC from TE - App at Movescount.com.
This app is probably useless but now i know how to interpolate graph.
I used graph from Training effect white paper.


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## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

Any news around the software update for the Ambit 2?


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## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

Still no EPOC live Function for the Ambit2 :-(
Where is the Suunto costumer care?


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## JoggWithoutDog (Jul 3, 2012)

alex68 said:


> Still no EPOC live Function for the Ambit2 :-(
> Where is the Suunto costumer care?


what about the t6-models?
Joachim
D7


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## alex68 (Oct 5, 2013)

JoggWithoutDog said:


> what about the t6-models?
> Joachim
> D7


My T6 is gone can't understand that Suunto is not able to implement EPOC live or deliver an EPOC live App.o|
Where is the Problem?:-s
The old T6 was able to show EPOC live.


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## JoggWithoutDog (Jul 3, 2012)

alex68 said:


> My T6 is gone can't understand that Suunto is not able to implement EPOC live or deliver an EPOC live App.o|
> Where is the Problem?:-s
> The old T6 was able to show EPOC live.


You haven't also to "understand" Suunto, have you 
Joachim
D6 (not T6


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

There's probably only 4 or 5 people in the world who even care about this. For them, there's always the T6C/D. You can't expect Suunto to cater to every tiny niche of a niche as far as upgrades go.


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## JoggWithoutDog (Jul 3, 2012)

bruceames said:


> There's probably only 4 or 5 people in the world who even care about this. For them, there's always the T6C/D. You can't expect Suunto to cater to every tiny niche of a niche as far as upgrades go.


Guess there are some more people in the world ... even Garmin added this feature in their forerunners (e.g. FR610) as Suunto added their virtual runner app
Joachim


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## SiRoB1 (Sep 26, 2013)

bruceames said:


> There's probably only 4 or 5 people in the world who even care about this.


Well according to the number of people that installed "EPOC From TE", they are 31...


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## JoggWithoutDog (Jul 3, 2012)

SiRoB1 said:


> Well according to the number of people that installed "EPOC From TE", they are 31...


How interesting that just Suunto "killed" that feature who had startet it ... it's just like the Ambit1 story


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

SiRoB1 said:


> Well according to the number of people that installed "EPOC From TE", they are 31...


Yeah I download stuff too just to check it out...to see if it's something I may care about enough to actually use.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

JoggWithoutDog said:


> Guess there are some more people in the world ... even Garmin added this feature in their forerunners (e.g. FR610) as Suunto added their virtual runner app


Forerunner has live EPOC? Are you sure?


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

JoggWithoutDog said:


> How interesting that just Suunto "killed" that feature who had startet it ... it's just like the Ambit1 story


What about your continuing story? Will it ever have an ending?


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## JoggWithoutDog (Jul 3, 2012)

bruceames said:


> What about your continuing story? Will it ever have an ending?


my continuance seems similar like yours ... just the opposite ... but that's life
Joachim 
D5


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

JoggWithoutDog said:


> my continuance seems similar like yours ... just the opposite ... but that's life
> Joachim
> D5


Well when it's a happy story, you live it. When it's not, you move on and find one that is. How many more days till you move on to Polar?


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## JoggWithoutDog (Jul 3, 2012)

bruceames said:


> Well when it's a happy story, you live it. When it's not, you move on and find one that is. How many more days till you move on to Polar?


Wrong! Back(!) to Polar ... but I do not want to talk to you more about it in that thread.
You are (still?) a Suunto fan ... I was one for many years (...and maybe someday...) - that's the difference. But everybody can talk about pros and cons like EPOC and so on, can't one?
Nevertheless: Nice weekend!
Joachim
D4


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

JoggWithoutDog said:


> Wrong! Back(!) to Polar ... but I do not want to talk to you more about it in that thread.
> You are (still?) a Suunto fan ... I was one for many years (...and maybe someday...) - that's the difference. But everybody can talk about pros and cons like EPOC and so on, can't one?
> Nevertheless: Nice weekend!
> Joachim
> D4


I was referring to this post you made. Only 4 days left!


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## Joakim Agren (Feb 12, 2006)

I guess it is really important for some people...:-d


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Live EPOC by itself is important to me, but only in terms of total EPOC gain for long events with lots of ups and downs (in which the EPOC gain is only the up part). That would be a killer app for me.


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

My myEPOC is still mostly pretty close Suunto EPOC for my basic runs, but myEPOC doesn't quite match EPOC on something truly epic.
Here's today's run









other people HR zones I guess also don't work so well.
Do I remember that were heard that Suunto told someone it was on a to-do list?

If I can get this close, I wonder why Suunto doesn't just make and post a real app.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Hi, Or. I do hope they go ahead and turn it loose one of these days. No harm in it anyway, or maybe FirstBeat has a say in it? I plan on using your formula during my hikes and I'll let you know how it goes.


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## or_watching (Nov 13, 2008)

bruceames said:


> Hi, Or. I do hope they go ahead and turn it loose one of these days. No harm in it anyway, or maybe FirstBeat has a say in it? I plan on using your formula during my hikes and I'll let you know how it goes.


Indeed. I've wondered about licensing restrictions on how the formula can be used. Contracts can be restrictive. 
Also I've wondered about HR data itself. At Movescount they can do a lot of post processing and hanlde missing data. That could create differences vs what can be done real time.

Have fun on your hikes. 
I'm sure the equation will want some 'tuning". For you, and for hiking HR zones.


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