# Kemmner's interpretation of Bond's Sub.



## Thieuster

About an hour ago, I posted this under the Raven vs. Kingston thread, but it's worth a new thread, I think.

Received this email earlier today:

_Dear Friends of mechanical watches,
the diver's watch SG9092-007 is finished now. The case is made from stainless-stell 316L. It is brushed with polished facets, the srewed, engraved case-back is polished and round brushed. The case diameter is 39 mm (without crown) and the height is 13,2 mm. The total length is 47 mm and the space between the lugs is 20 mm. The coin-edge bezel is turnable only left side with 60 clicks. The 7 mm crown is engraved. The diver has a outside domed sapphire-glass, inside flat and antireflect. The case-back is engraved with 007 plus jumping number. The jumping number is engraved between the lugs too.
The SG9092 has a automatic movement ETA 2824-2 swiss, 25,6 x 4,6 mm, 25 jewels, 28.800 A/h and runs 48 hours after full winding.
The dial is black matte and the hour-lines, -points and -triangle as well as the hands has a Superluminova in the color of aged Tritium.
The watch has a silver-grey/black Nato-strap with ss-buckle with pin.
The price for the watch which comes in a small wooden box is 245,00 Euro + 9,00 Euro shipping costs. We have made 100 pcs. and start to assemble after getting the order. Free numbers are 007/002 to 007/005, 007/008 to 007/010, 007/12 to 007/100. We need around 12 days for assembling.
Best Regards
Roland Kemmner

_
Menno

Here a few pics:


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## sunster

I think this is a good looking watch. Nice bezel and case. The lume is maybe a bit too orange for me but appears good VFM. 
Not too sure whether you can compare it with the kingston though as this isn't a big crown


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## Izzy

I agree with sunster, the orange lumes do not look right. I hope maybe the picture does not do it justice. As it looks like one of the cheap imitation Chinese replicas. Also not crazy on the branding on the dial...less is more would have worked better. Thanks for sharing.


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## austinnh

JMHO:

Hour hand is too long. Second hand is wrong with the lume dot too far out, and the "tail" is the wrong shape. These things make it not look good to me.

No gilt and the minute track isn't correct (no continuous circle around the edge).

And I don't like fake patina. It's pretentious IMHO. The Kingston says "I am a good looking and highly functional watch based on a vintage design." The Kemmner says "I wish I was vintage."

EDIT: not trying to bash the watch. Just saying that it's a very different watch from the Kingston.


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## Quartersawn

For those without a Kingston on order this is not a bad alternative. I'm not a huge fan of the lume - if you want a vintage look it should be a cream color - but overall I think it's a handsome piece.


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## Sweep

Do not know anything about his watches but from those pictures I would rather have a Seiko in whatever price range this is in. 

I reserve the right to change my mind if better pics surface but from these it looks horrid. The Raven is better and I agree that the logo is wrong on this. That is the one the the Raven has going for it....the logo is very well done on that watch IMHO.

ALSO: Are those alternating colors in the grooves on the crown? :roll:


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## ASRSPR

Sweep said:


> ALSO: Are those alternating colors in the grooves on the crown? :roll:


Reflections, I'm sure.


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## Sweep

I like some of his other stuff. I wish Bill would do a dress watch.


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## gerard88t

Hmmmm, in regards to the 39mm case with spring bar holes. It has a suspicious feeling all over it for me. But whatever.


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## bmick325

The bezel on the Kemmner looks like the Blackwater "RN" Bezel.


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## Beau8

The lume is too bright orange and the name on dial isn't quite appealing IMO~Cheers!


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## sunster

gerard88t said:


> Hmmmm, in regards to the 39mm case with spring bar holes. It has a suspicious feeling all over it for me. But whatever.


What do yo mean?
Roland Kemmner use to work with fricker and so designs and manufactures his own cases and also for other brands


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## nullidentitat

I'm considering getting one as a sort of 'beater Kingston.' The insert will need a little accelerated aging, but I kind of like it.


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## usc1

Kemmner does make great watches and sells excellent materials to put watches together. 

The watch overall is good but the lume kills it. The watch was fine without the vintage appearing lume.


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## sunster

If the lime was simply White or off White, given the quality of his watches and the price point at which it's being sold with eta movement, this would be a winner


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## bluloo

Other than the lume color (though that might grow on me over time as well) and the logo, I think it looks pretty good. A stylized "K" might work better than his full name.

It's a modern interpretation, which I like, precisely because it's not so close as to be mistaken for a vintage original. If it were truer to the original and had the yellow lume, I wouldn't like it at all.

Not really comparable to the Kingston or Raven, as others have noted. IMO, YMMV and all that.


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## lgking

As for Kemmner making his own cases...he has in the past, however my bet (at this price point) is that this is a chinese case. Regarding the 'logo'...it's an upside-down (pre-Tag) vintage Heuer logo. I actually wish he'd flip it right-side up with his name in it.


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## JohnF

Hi -

He calls it "aged tritium"?

No way: this is what aged tritium looks like:










and what he is using isn't aged tritium. It's O R A N G E.

Oh, and that is an issue british Hamilton from 1977. Makes the tritium at least 33 years old...

JohnF


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## bakuma

*Kemmner's 007*

Couple of things: I agree that the lume is pretty orange, but I've seen '70s Swiss divers almost that color (at least, what I can tell from the pictures). As a former owner of a Zeno Seahunter, I think that color actually looks pretty good on a matte black dial (see below). Second, I emailed Kemmner and found that cases are made of Japanese steel, roughed out in China, then milled to spec in Germany, so it sounds like every surface of the case is finished in Germany. I like the look of this one and, having owned a couple of Frickers, I would think the case finishing is probably good--the two Frickers I owned were at least as well finished as my Stingray, probably a bit better (I know Kemmner is no longer with Fricker, but the finish quality seems to be there). Looks like a great watch to me, although as others have pointed out, somewhat different than the Kingston (and the Raven, for that matter). Also, the logo is fine. Nice and old-school (and the "Kemmner" makes a little workshop...  )

Zeno (not my pic):








Kemmner's case:


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## ASRSPR

*Re: Kemmner's 007*

Regarding the quality of Kemmner's products in general, I have a number of Kemmner's cases as well as his Tonneau model. The construction and finish are rather good for all (though not on par with the precise detailing of the Paradive). My review of the Tonneau can be found here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/kemmner-tonneau-dress-watch-review-377880.html

Here's one of his Unitas cases:


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## ForGoodnessSeiko

*Re: Kemmner's 007*

I don't like it I have to say. Much prefer the Photoshop >other image manipulation software is available< 
_This_ is how you do aged lume:


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## usc1

*Re: Kemmner's 007*

Kemmner states that his cases are German made. Whether he means the case is finished in Germany and the materials from China, I am not sure. I thought I read in the past that the casing is from SUG in Germany? Nevertheless, I can attest that his watch materials are class A.


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## caesarmascetti

*Re: Kemmner's 007*

according to an EMail from him the case blanks are imported from China and then finished in Germany, I believe German laws allow something to be called made in Germany if moe than 50% of the value of the item is German. So the case blanks are from China and the time spent finishing them is worth more than 50% of the total cost of the case. Hence German Made


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## orian

I read on one of the forums that the Raven has now gone up drastically in price to over $400, probably due to the demand in people wanting one because they can't get a Kingston. Apart from that possibility, the Raven looks more like it should be around the same price point as an Alpha or Invicta.


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## ferrissteve

I looked at Raven's watches and while they don't appear to be a poor product, they don't seem to merit a $400+ price tag either. However, having never handled one or compared it against an MKII, Kemmner etc its difficult to say. 
While Kemmner's sub seems to certainly be one of the better alternatives available it certainly is not without its "colorful" attributes as well.


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## orian

Apparently, W3 watches have now done an exact design copy of the Kemmner sub, but more expensive:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/vintage-bond-style-subalike-w3-497320.html


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## ASRSPR

My understanding is that Wilson sources their cases (and, given this, other parts?) from Kemmner.


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## caesarmascetti

ASRSPR said:


> My understanding is that Wilson sources their cases (and, given this, other parts?) from Kemmner.


Kemmer, Wilson, etc.... they are all sourcing the same case from China doing the assembly and finishing.


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## cpotters

brucers99 said:


> I'm a new member and new watch enthusiast (WW2 collector and firearms collector also). I should be receiving one of the Wilson watches in the next week or so. I'll put up some pictures when I get it, but here are a few from Wilson's website.


Ya' know, at that price point, it's not a BAD alternative for someone who couldn't grab a Kingston. It doesn't have the softness of the vintage that a Kingston captured, and it clearly lacks some of the maniacal details that were 2 years in the making, but it's totally a modernized update: crisp bezel, spartan dial (don't like their "aged lume" option, though). Maybe some of these better "subalikes" could also take some of the pressure off of the "gotta have it here and now" folks, and make it easier to wait on their Kingston deliveries. no matter when they arrive.


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## caesarmascetti

These cases are all chinese in origin, now Kemmer may do his own final finishing but the blanks are all chinese in origin. In fact I read a post elsewhere that he confirmed this in an E Mail to a member of WUS. OK and he oversaw the production of the Dreadnought and how does that effect this watch? Are you implying that because of that this watch will also appreciate 300% good luck on that one. Also, I think it is in poor taste to post about a competitors product in a forum devoted to a WUS sponsor, maybe the DIve Forum or Mil forum would be a better place.


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## nullidentitat

Pretty much all case blanks are Chinese in origin though; nothing new there. Roland's pretty straightforward about it if you bring it up, which is more than I can say for a lot of smaller makers.


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## caesarmascetti

No, it is in poor taste to post about a competitor in a companies forum that sponsers this site. MKII pays for this forum I'm sure there are better places to post about one of their competitors. Finally I'm sure he does wonderful finish work as many other small boutique companies, I just don't see how you stating that the dreadnought increase in value has any bearing on this model. I was making the point that he doesn't actually make the case he finishes a Chinese case, he has no involvement in the actual manufacture other than finishing. I agree the Dreadnought was a weel done piece this one on the other hand, looks like they went on the cheap trying to replicate a guild dial with that ugly orange color. As a personal aside I'm just getting tired of seeing all these cookie cutter watches coming out: The Enzo/Nuticfish/LM3 case, then the 2000M Contract case, now this one, it would be nice to see something a bit more original, like the Dreadnought (the real reason it has become valuable)


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## caesarmascetti

nullidentitat said:


> Pretty much all case blanks are Chinese in origin though; nothing new there. Roland's pretty straightforward about it if you bring it up, which is more than I can say for a lot of smaller makers.


Yup I just wanted to clarify as it was originally stated that he was the "supplier" of the cases, just didn't want gray area supplier isn't the same as maker, of course the cases say made in germany on them so I don't know how straight forward that is.


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## bakuma

*It's not a copy*

It's my understanding that the W3 is supplied by Kemmner, with a different dial, signed crown and different engraving on the caseback.

To caesarmascetti: we can certainly discuss Kemmner's 007 on a different forum, but I think many people interested in the Kingston agreed a while back that, although both are homages based on the same Rolex, the watches appear different enough (size; lume color) that they shouldn't be considered direct competitors.



orian said:


> Regarding the W3 watch, are they allowed to do that? I mean make a direct copy of Kemmner's watch and sell it for much more? I think it's unethical, myself. But then I don't know the ins and outs of watch making design copyright-if there is such a thing.


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## bakuma

No, but sometimes a close look can help form an opinion based on the material qualities of the watch. The Raven is a big step up from any Alpha I've handled (Invicta is a different story, just because the finish quality seems to vary model to model). As a small-run watch with a great vintage acrylic crystal, I think the Raven is worth its price. I only sold mine because I didn't like the cool lume color with the "warmth" of the rest of the watch, but other than that, I thought it was nice. Based on the pictures I've seen, it wasn't Kingston quality, but not Kingston-priced, either.



orian said:


> Are you saying only buyers of a watch can express an opinion as to whether it's overpriced or not?


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## rmasso

bakuma said:


> Based on the pictures I've seen, it wasn't Kingston quality, but not Kingston-priced, either.


 From the pictures I've seen, I am beginning to think Bill under-priced the Kingston. Just my opinion. We'll see when mine arrive.


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## orian

rmasso said:


> From the pictures I've seen, I am beginning to think Bill under-priced the Kingston. Just my opinion. We'll see when mine arrive.


You might be right. It is certainly better looking than the modern Rolex sub. The only thing I don't like about the Kingston is that it would be too big for my puny 6.4 wrists.


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## Yao

I am sorry to have deleted so many posts and so late after they were posted.

Posts about competitors are "okay" in the sense I can use the intel as long as you are okay with the fact that I reserve the right to limit the scope of the discussion.

But it looks like it may be a good idea to develop a non-limited edition version. That having been said (and I hope that this will satisfy speculation for the time being, although probably it won't) any non-LE version will follow the original ordering guidelines that I set out in the ordering e-mail sent to all of the pre-order customers:


The "Kingston" name will be retired after the Limited Edition sells out
The 8 mm crown will be discontinued after the Kingston
The "Kingston" inlay (the gray/silver inlay without the 15 minute hash marks) will be discontinued
The gilt dial style currently available will also be discontinued after the Kingston sells out
The engraving design for the case back will also be unique to the Kingston
and any non-LE version will certainly be released *after* we deliver all of the *pre-order watches* although there is *no timetable for a non-LE version at this time*. I have enough on my plate at the moment.


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