# Are Stowa cases made in Germany, or are they from asia?



## X2-Elijah

Hi folks (and Jörg, if you want to comment).

Over on f71, there is an interesting thing, a Rodina homage watch with a caseback that says "Stowa" & "Made in Germany". (thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/rodina-homage-based-current-version-1930s-stowa-2402714.html )

Some posters have started to imply that the caseback could be a legit Stowa part(?) put on a Rodina by accident(?), which then implies that Stowa case parts are made in China(?). Is that possible (Fricker doing some import stuff, or something like that), or is that total nonsense?


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## authalic

I just read that entire thread, and was hoping it would get mentioned here. I'm more inclined to think that someone at Rodina deliberately copied the look of the Antea KS, including the wording on the caseback. Whether that was done intentionally to try to deceive buyers (counterfeit), or done through ignorance in an attempt to make a more authentic homage (oxymoron), seems to be the main issue here. I'm hoping Jörg can offer some insight.


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## StufflerMike

I can't remember a 41mm Stowa case with the engraving "waterproof", can't even remember any other case with "waterproof" engravings. Most of the time 5 Atm is engraved, no "waterproof" added. "Stowa since 1927" puzzles me too. On some Stowa backs (Flieger for example) it is written slightly different "Stowa. Since 1927" (pay attention to the dot).

Other Rodania sell with Antea KS 41 engraved on the back which do not exist on any Antea KS 41.

I am sure Jörg will chime in.


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## CM HUNTER

X2-Elijah said:


> Hi folks (and Jörg, if you want to comment).
> 
> Over on f71, there is an interesting thing, a Rodina homage watch with a caseback that says "Stowa" & "Made in Germany". (thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/rodina-homage-based-current-version-1930s-stowa-2402714.html )
> 
> Some posters have started to imply that the caseback could be a legit Stowa part(?) put on a Rodina by accident(?), which then implies that Stowa case parts are made in China(?). Is that possible (Fricker doing some import stuff, or something like that), or is that total nonsense?


On the Stowa website there is a FAQ section that clearly states the percentage of European sourced parts. Considering the Swiss movement, Swiss hands, Swiss lume, German dial, and German strap, that leaves the case. Draw your own conclusions, but Fricker and controversy about Asian ties isn't new. With this particular case concerning the Rodina, sounds to me like someone was trying to steal some credibility by offering something with ties to Stowa. Pretty lame and sad really.


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## Jörg Schauer

Hello everybody,

today i got this information about this watch already by email as well and now we are searching whats happen.

One possible thing is that somebody who bought a STOWA put in a chinese skeletton movement -. there are some movements around.

But i have to check.

If it is a total copy there are always to always two sides:

>> Good is that the people thing they can copy and make some money  - like with the big brands.
*This is a compliment because it seems that the brand is popular. *
(but i guess this will be not working like Rolex, STOWA is not so popular that you can make money with copys )

>> The second point is of course that we have to take care about copys. If not the market can get nervous and the people are not sure if they buy a Original or Copy.

But i am relaxed - the same happens years ago with a Schauer Chronograph.

Some chinese companys sometimes try to do a copy and check if the market will buy it.

As long as there is a other brandname on the dial it happens and it is very difficult to stop (you already know that the big brands couldn´t stop at all, and they have much more possibilities)

But of course the caseback we have to check, because there is already the STOWA engraving.

Tomorrow i will check my drawings and typographie and see if it is a copy or somebody who "pimps" his stowa with an chinese movement and dial - this makes no sence but today everything is possible. 

Bye for now

Many thanks

Jörg Schauer


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## StufflerMike

My gutt says: plain fake back, produced for whatever reason.


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## Jörg Schauer

Hallo,

habe noch ein wenig recherchiert gerade.

Rodina Watch Bauhaus Watch automatic Small Second Hand Date R005 R005GB ST17 ST1731 SEAGULL WATCH

Die haben es wohl auf das bauhausdesign abgesehen - andere Mitbewerber wurden auch schon kopiert und aufgrund der vielen Bilder im Netz ist die Uhr wohl ein "Dauerbrenner".

Ich würde es mal so sagen:

Vorbehaltlich, das kein STOWA Schriftzug verwendet wird wird es wohl so sein wie in "Real":

Die Nomoscopy wird sicher mehr Absatz finden als die STOWA Antea Copy 

Preislich dürfte da wohl anders wie bei den Originalen kein Unterschied sein 

Gruss Jörg Schauer

Natürlich prüfen wir das alles und versuchen mehr Infos zu bekommen.


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## JEBrowne

Jörg Schauer said:


> >> Good is that the people thing they can copy and make some money  - like with the big brands.
> This is a compliment because it seems that the brand is popular.
> (but i guess this will be not working like Rolex, *STOWA is not so popular that you can make money with copys* )


"Their 2013 paper, Swiss Watch Cycles: Evidence of Corruption during Leadership Transition in China, found that imports of Swiss watches into China tripled during each five yearly national political leadership transition, something that did not happen in other countries like Singapore or the United States. The authors attributed that to watches being small but valuable, as well as being easily sold for cash. In fact, they noted that *the wide availability of counterfeit watches made the real thing even more desirable, because a real watch and its equivalent counterfeit could be gifted together, with the replica used as proof of innocence during an investigation*"

That quoted from Watches By SJX: Explaining China's Importance to the Luxury Watch Industry


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## GlenRoiland

So, are the case and caseback of Stowa made in Germany? Or are they outsourced?


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## Emil Kraeplin

The original question was not answered. Thanks for bringing it up Glenn.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## GlenRoiland

Sometimes silence is an answer..


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## Up-n-coming

Not necessarily. What company in their right mind would divulge where they source all their parts.


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## StufflerMike

GlenRoiland said:


> Sometimes silence is an answer..


Not necessarily. It might well be that Jörg is totally wrapped up in other business, for example preparing the NYC show or investigating the Rodina thing ??


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## Jörg Schauer

Hello,

already around 10 years around i told a journalist from the Magazine Armbanduhren that we buy 80% in Europe and some parts in the rest of the world.
(its funny - exactly this journalist was visiting me last week because they want to make a report about my 25th anniversary of Schauer watches )

Today the german and europe parts are growing to more than 80% - because we always want to buy the BEST Quality for our customers.

BUT: If there are parts from outside germany which are better quality than the BEST i can buy in Germany , i will buy outside of germany (like all other companies, not only in the watch business, also do)

And for me it is a part of the "true"in our slogan that - 10 years ago - i was the only watch producer who opened this fact to the his clients 

Today we can go deeper in the story and - like i also told here in this forum several times - if ALL companies in the market - or we can reduce this to: ALL near competitors open there supplier chain - i have no problem to tell the public mine. 

But please respect that long term suppliers and suppliers chains are a part of the success - and this is a milestone nobody will tell to the public.

Not, if all others are quite and absolutely not willing to open this to the public.

And one of the most important reasons is - and i believe this deep inside:

*I want to built the best i can do for my customers and i choose the supplier who can follow this idea best.*

For me it does´t matter where i buy components, what i want is the best i can buy for STOWA.
(i am happy that this most happen in germany , swiss, france or belgium etc.)

We are happy that we have a few suppliers who are realy good and thats the reason that we only buy less than 20% outside germany.

I know that this answer is not enough for the one or the other - But honest speaking: I don´t care, because please think about what you are already reading and knowing about STOWA watches and there origin.

Please think about what are the worldwide competitors are willed to tell you if you ask them directly the sam questions like me?

And please ask smaller, bigger or some of the biggest companies and please bring the answers here to the public.

I am realy interested about the answers.

Sorry for my strong answer, but i think we are all open mind and if you ask STOWA and if you want to force STOWA - please also think about all the others.

Anyway- in my answer you can read the reality with and at STOWA - thats what i can and willed to say. 

Best regards

Jörg Schauer


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## GlenRoiland

Up-n-coming said:


> Not necessarily. What company in their right mind would divulge where they source all their parts.


I am actually completely un invested here. To me, I could care less where the pieces come from, and I know Stowa makes a great product. Some people seem to care, and the question was posed, not by me. Years ago I thought geographic origin meant something, and I spent alot of money pursuing products from certain "locations," but now I put my money into micros.

So, who cares if the case and caseback are made in Asia? Not me.


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## GlenRoiland

stuffler said:


> Not necessarily. It might well be that Jörg is totally wrapped up in other business, for example preparing the NYC show or investigating the Rodina thing ??


Agreed. See post above. No horse in the race here. Just an interested bystander...


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## titov

Look guys, here are fake Stowas on a l i express (sorry, didn't know it is banned to mention that site here):
http://www..........s.com/popular/stowa-watch.html (ali express without space is insted of al the dots - this is here for research purpose only, not to promote fake watches!)

Or maybe this link will work:
http://bit.ly/1LmVTSZ

A quick look at the back case, it seems that it is the same that on the Rodina watch: no "." between "Stowa" and "Since" as Mike noticed on the Rodina. Movement also looks the same... So I think it is safe to assume that the company that makes Rodina watches is also making this fake Stowas...

Now, as Joerg already said, it was already mentioned here years ago that some parts in Stowas are from Asia. But I'm sure the cases are in fact German and I hope Joerg clarifies that.


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## Up-n-coming

Why does Jorg owe anyone an answer on where his cases are made? The Rodina caseback has been verified as fake and not an oem Stowa case back that fell off the truck in Asia. What's the difference if Stowa cases are made in Asia or Germany? I don't get all this detective work? Fricker or Ickler (not sure which) has a plant both in Asia and in Germany. Swatch group has holdings in manufacturing plants in Asia also. Go ask Omega where their cases are made or which brands Fricker or Ickler sell their Asian manufactured cases to. You won't get the time of day from either of them. 

Sorry if my post comes off as harsh. I just don't get why Jorg is being scrutinized for Stowa replicas being produced in China.

What everyone should be up in arms about is that Stowa designs and now even the Stowa name are being ripped off without Jorg receiving a cent in royalties for the Stowa brand name and designs he paid good money for back in the nineties. 

Stowa freely admits that 80% of his watches value comes from Europe. So if you read between the lines the other 20% probably come from Asia to reduce costs. So what!


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## H_J_R_

I love how Jorg in English sounds like Johan Cruijff in Dutch: Somewhat vague and cryptic but it does make sense. 

What i cannot stress enough is how i appreciate Jorg joining in on the matter. Sure folks will say he had to because of this Rodania monkey business. Then again he has joined in a lot of discussions both in favour and against his decisions/plans/models. 

gr, HJR


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## Jörg Schauer

Hello,

now i could find the time to check some details of the fake.

Now i can say that this is not a "pimped or tuned" Original STOWA Antea KS 41 - i thought maybe somebody bought the Original watch and put in a other dial and movement.

But some of the casedetails (quality and engraving) are not bad made, but never this is or was a Original STOWA watch.

So i have to check if we can make something against the producer because they are using our Companys name and modellname.

But i think this will be a big fight from a small company like STOWA is against a big company (Seagull is a very big chinese company)

Lets see whats happen 

Best regards

Jörg Schauer


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## hidden830726

Actually im from Asia, although not China, but seriously its very normal these days to source parts elsewhere.

As long as integrity is there.


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## brainless

Jörg Schauer said:


> So i have to check if we can make something against the producer because they are using our Companys name and modellname.
> 
> But i think this will be a big fight from a small company like STOWA is against a big company (Seagull is a very big chinese company)


Hello Jörg,

I don't consider the SEAGULL Company to be the creator of such a fake. Probably it is one of the hundreds of small companies that only exist because they can distribute via Ali Express.
Counterfeits now get a new quality: They are not only made manually in Easter European Countries, pretending they are _Original WW II watches - _now (bad) copies of current models are made on the cheap in hundreds in Asia.
Would it be helpful to open a thread with new found counterfeits and adulterations only?

Volker ;-)


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## StufflerMike

brainless said:


> Would it be helpful to open a thread with new found counterfeits and adulterations only?
> Volker ;-)


Watchuseek does not tend to give fakes a forum. So NO to your question.


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## umarrajs

Another point to note is that 'Made in China' does not equate to 'Poor Quality' and 'Made in Germany does not necessarily translate into 'Good Quality'.
[This seems to be the subtext of this thread]

If I am in the Watch Manufacturing business and put out my specifications for the global bid and a Chinese company equals or exceeds my specifications at a lower price, business sense dictates that I go with it.
Stowa watches are great and well put together...........if the case is per Stowa specs and is sourced from China, I am totally fine.


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## MHELKIOT

We have the best quality at Stowa according to Jorg, cannot understand why this simple answer is not enough for some members...
The real issue is quality and it is confirmed by M. Schauer : he puts and buys the best quality...
Just relax and enjoy Stowa ;-))


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## svetoslav

I am totally UNfine with Chinese parts and cases, good luck


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## brainless

svetoslav said:


> I am totally UNfine with Chinese parts and cases, good luck


Is there any dispassionate reason for being "totally UNfine"?

Volker


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## cba191

He obviously posted this with a mid 90s computer and doesn't use cell phones. 

If the quality is maintained, it shouldn't matter.


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## Tiger-rider

iPhone is designed by Apple in California but assembled in China. I have been using iPhone since the era of iPhone 3G and I have no problem with it.

As for Stowa, I could care less about where some of their parts come from. I own 3 Stowa watches and they use Eta movements, they are well made in high quality. I enjoy wearing them even if you tell me some of the parts are from China or other Asian countries.


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## Rallyfan13

I've used iPhones since the original, they're great phones.

iPhone is a Chinese phone.

Is Stowa a Chinese watch? Reading the answers above, it seems to be so, yes.

Otherwise there'd be no need for lengthy (non)explanations. A single sentence would do: "We have no Chinese parts."

That's not been said.


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## titov

Then you can say that more or less all watches are Chinese as most include some Asian parts...


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## Rallyfan13

titov said:


> Then you can say that more or less all watches are Chinese as most include some Asian parts...


Are _these_ watches Chinese? Or are all their parts German?


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## hidden830726

Rallyfan13 said:


> I've used iPhones since the original, they're great phones.
> 
> iPhone is a Chinese phone.
> 
> Is Stowa a Chinese watch? Reading the answers above, it seems to be so, yes.
> 
> Otherwise there'd be no need for lengthy (non)explanations. A single sentence would do: "We have no Chinese parts."
> 
> That's not been said.


Yes and no.

Offcourse there's chinese parts, but Stowa is not Chinese watch as u suggested, its made in germany

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


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## titov

Rallyfan13 said:


> Are _these_ watches Chinese? Or are all their parts German?


No and no.

With your logic there are almost no Swiss, German, USA... made products, just Chinese. Globalisation mate, rare things are exclusivly made in one country.


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## StufflerMike

Rallyfan13 said:


> Is Stowa a Chinese watch? Reading the answers above, it seems to be so,


BS


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## CM HUNTER

Agreed pure B.S.. Apparently somebody missed the point of Stowa watches being of at least 80% European value (and that's from some time ago and even more value is present now). Minimum 80% value (some of the 20% consists of the most mundane of parts like springs in the movement) is European, and you're considering a Stowa watch to be Chinese? In your book only.


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## Rallyfan13

So the watches _do_ have Chinese parts?

I'm not talking about "everything" or other watches.

THESE watches have Chinese parts?

Ok. All I wanted to know.


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## Rallyfan13

And to those that called my post BS... I'll tell you what's BS:

Several paragraphs of "explaining" when a yes/no answer will do is BS.

The more explaining is "needed," the more BS.

An example of a truly significant statement, made to actually clarify: "Yes, our watches have Chinese parts." Another example is "No, our watches don't have Chinese parts."

Historic example: I'll say this about the man that wrote the following, no matter what else he did or didn't do, he did make a clear statement...

_I hereby resign the Presidency of the United States._

Does everyone see the difference between a statement intended to directly reflect the truth, and 35 statements put together intended _not_ to be clear?


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## CM HUNTER

Rallyfan13 said:


> And to those that called my post BS... I'll tell you what's BS:
> 
> Several paragraphs of "explaining" when a yes/no answer will do is BS.
> 
> The more explaining is "needed," the more BS.
> 
> An example of a truly significant statement, made to actually clarify: "Yes, our watches have Chinese parts." Another example is "No, our watches don't have Chinese parts."
> 
> Historic example: I'll say this about the man that wrote the following, no matter what else he did or didn't do, he did make a clear statement...
> 
> _I hereby resign the Presidency of the United States._
> 
> Does everyone see the difference between a statement intended to directly reflect the truth, and 35 statements put together intended _not_ to be clear?


When you own a competitive business, then you might understand where Jorge is coming from. He has simply stated that when his direct competitiors start divulging such info, then he will be more than happy to do so as well. (And that's direct competition mind you, not every little micro in existence.) I think it's more than clear at this point what the watches are made of (simple deductive reasoning can piece together what parts are from where). The reasons why Jorge hasn't felt comfortable in revealing but a certain amount as a competitive business move, you either get that or you don't.


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## Rallyfan13

CM HUNTER said:


> When you own a competitive business, then you might understand where Jorge is coming from. He has simply stated that when his direct competitiors start divulging such info, then he will be more than happy to do so as well. (And that's direct competition mind you not every little micro in existence.) I think it's more than clear at this point what the watches are made of (simple deductive reasoning can piece together what parts are from where). The reasons why Jorge haven't felt comfortable in doing so as a competitive business move, you either get that it you don't.


I think you yourself know whether I "get it" or not. In fact, am I not calling it _what it is_?

I don't expect him (or anyone) to... resign the Presidency, do a double victory sign, and get into a helicopter and fly off to go to California.

I do, however, know obfuscation when I see it. I'm taking the time to... celebrate it.


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## CM HUNTER

Rallyfan13 said:


> I think you yourself know whether I "get it" or not. In fact, am I not calling it _what it is_?
> 
> I don't expect him (or anyone) to... resign the Presidency, do a double victory sign, and get into a helicopter and fly off to go to California.
> 
> I do, however, know obfuscation when I see it. I'm taking the time to... celebrate it.


Oh yes indeed I very much so know if you get it or not. The fact that a handful of people felt the need to try to enlighten you makes this perfectly clear.


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## Rallyfan13

CM HUNTER said:


> Oh yes indeed I very much so know if you get it or not. The fact that a handful of people felt the need to try to enlighten you makes this perfectly clear.


Enlighten me? 
You sound clever and gracious. Here's a question, you can enlighten me:
_*Do Stowa watches use cases or other parts from China?*_
Sorry, I just don't get it... 
Do they? 
Thanks!


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## hidden830726

I think a better question is, if Stowa indeed do have 20% parts from China, will you still buy Stowa?

If yes, then why bother?

If no, then what? end of world?


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## Rallyfan13

hidden830726 said:


> I think a better question is, if Stowa indeed do have 20% parts from China, will you still buy Stowa?
> 
> If yes, then why bother?
> 
> If no, then what? end of world?


Let's consider this:

If Chinese parts don't matter, then, well, I'm sure a maker responding to a direct question would be glad to tell us there are Chinese parts, and his/her fans will gladly cheer him/her on.

If on the other hand Chinese parts do matter... Hm...


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## dhtjr

titov said:


> Globalisation mate, rare things are exclusivly made in one country.


Generally true. And on a related note, the only 100% in-house watch manufacture I'm aware of is Seiko.


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## CM HUNTER

Rallyfan13 said:


> Let's consider this:
> 
> If Chinese parts don't matter, then, well, I'm sure a maker responding to a direct question would be glad to tell us there are Chinese parts, and his/her fans will gladly cheer him/her on.
> 
> If on the other hand Chinese parts do matter... Hm...


Hmmm what? Depends on what those parts are. If that 20% is a simple spring in a movement and case that is hand finished in-house, than not in the slightest.


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## StufflerMike

dhtjr said:


> Generally true. And on a related note, the only 100% in-house watch manufacture I'm aware of is Seiko.


Aren't the jewels sourced rather than in-house ?


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## Rallyfan13

CM HUNTER said:


> Hmmm what? If that 20% is a simple spring in a movement and case that is hand finished in-house, than not in the slightest.


Are the cases made in China?

That's the topic of the thread, right?

We're talking about whether the cases are made in China?

What do you think? Do you think the cases are made in China?


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## CM HUNTER

Which doesn't carry a lot of weight when something like being able to align a chapter ring properly continuously blows those at Seiko's minds.


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## Bradjhomes

Rallyfan13 said:


> Enlighten me?
> You sound clever and gracious. Here's a question, you can enlighten me:
> _*Do Stowa watches use cases or other parts from China?*_
> Sorry, I just don't get it...
> Do they?
> Thanks!


You know the answer to that just as well as everyone else in this thread does (apart from Jorg I assume).

You don't know for sure
I don't know for sure
C M HUNTER doesn't know for sure

By all means reach your own conclusion and make your purchasing decisions based on it.

Why on earth are you still asking members the question when you already know full well that they don't know?


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## CM HUNTER

Hand holding time. Don't bother to read the posts here, I'll rehash it for you.

The dial is German
The strap is German
The hands are Swiss
The lume is Swiss
95%+ of the movement is Swiss

I ask you what's left to cover the 20% ? I myself see that that leaves the case and mundane movement parts. But I'm curious since that's been stated repeatedly in this thread, what confuses you so?


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## Rallyfan13

Bradjhomes said:


> You know the answer to that just as well as everyone else in this thread does (apart from Jorg I assume).
> 
> You don't know for sure
> I don't know for sure
> C M HUNTER doesn't know for sure
> 
> By all means reach your own conclusion and make your purchasing decisions based on it.
> 
> Why on earth are you still asking members the question when you already know full well that they don't know?


Sorry but your post is based on a false premise.

I don't believe the statement you've made, that people beyond the seller don't know for sure, is accurate.

I think even those that argue semantics and dance around the issue on this thread do know. In fact, I think _particularly_ those that argue semantics and dance around the issue on this thread do know.

I'm "still asking" the question because _the question is the specific topic of this thread_.

The seller has posted a non-response that obfuscates the use of Chinese cases, and is now apparently to be... celebrated?


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## Bradjhomes

Rallyfan13 said:


> Sorry but your post is based on a false premise.
> 
> I don't believe the statement you've made, that people beyond the seller don't know for sure, is accurate.
> 
> I think even those that argue semantics and dance around the issue on this thread do know. In fact, I think _particularly_ those that argue semantics and dance around the issue on this thread do know.
> 
> I'm "still asking" the question because _the question is the specific topic of this thread_.
> 
> The seller has posted a non-response that obfuscates the use of Chinese cases, and is now apparently to be... celebrated?


Well I sure don't know, and nor do you from what you're saying. That's why I am assuming not many others know for sure.

Who do you think knows, and why?

I'm not celebrating any response. I'm pretty nonplussed.

I honestly doubt full information about where each and every component is sourced/manufactured is going to be forthcoming from Stowa or 90%+ of the watch industry.

Once I reach my own conclusion based on the information which is readily accessible I'll make a purchasing decision based on that.


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## Rallyfan13

Ok that's fair. I take roundabout non-answers and paragraph upon paragraph of dancing around a direct question as confirmation the parts are Chinese. 

Stating "ask the others first" seemingly confirms Chinese origin. 

"They do it also" is a veiled excuse. I say "excuse" not because I believe using Chinese parts is "bad." Indeed my beliefs are irrelevant because the thread is not about me of course. The thread is about Asian cases used in a "German" watch. 

Does the seller deny this? I believe the seller does not deny this. 

However I apparently need to "understand" the "explanations" and be "enlightened." Woe unto me. I thought a direct answer would be truthful, and I thought non-answers could have something to hide. That's how far off the mark I must be...


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## doggbiter

OK... assuming for the sake of argument that 20% of the watch's components come from China, how _exactly_ does that make it a "Chinese watch" as you asserted earlier?


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## asadtiger

Jorg you are a good sport for making good watches and participating here...keep doing what ever you are doing.


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## Rallyfan13

Ok valid point. I suppose then the watch is 20% Chinese by content. It can be labeled German legally -- though that's irrelevant. The thread topic concerned the origin of the cases -- a physical property of the cases -- rather than legal labels -- a human social construct. 

In the seller's defense I'm sure others are indeed doing it. However this thread isn't about others. It's about Stowa. 

I'd speculate several Chinese makers may be using German materials in their watches, and hiding that fact behind legal "made in" labels. Right? They'd still label "made in China" and they're sure it's ok and after all, the German content of their watches is still decent enough quality, so it shouldn't matter...


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## Bradjhomes

Rallyfan13 said:


> Ok that's fair. I take roundabout non-answers and paragraph upon paragraph of dancing around a direct question as confirmation the parts are Chinese.


And that's up to you how you interpret it. No one can tell you to interpret it differently.

As for "they do it also" - I don't mean to use it as an excuse for anyone, but note as a statement of the Status Quo. That's how it is. I understand the sentiments of anyone who seeks to find out more. As consumers we should all want to know more. I guess I'm more resigned to 'that's just how it is' and accept that I'm probably never going to know. I buy watches based on this and form opinions based on how good the product is (as you say, no one is saying a case from one country is better than a case from another, but sometimes a little more transparency would be nice).

I don't believe you're going to get a full, exact and complete answer in this thread though. I don't honesty think you believe it either. That's why I ask why you keep asking the question.

We have the facts as best as we're going to get them currently. You state your conclusions above - and that's pretty much as far as anyone can go.


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## CM HUNTER

Rallyfan13 said:


> Ok that's fair. I take roundabout non-answers and paragraph upon paragraph of dancing around a direct question as confirmation the parts are Chinese.
> 
> Stating "ask the others first" seemingly confirms Chinese origin.
> 
> "They do it also" is a veiled excuse. I say "excuse" not because I believe using Chinese parts is "bad." Indeed my beliefs are irrelevant because the thread is not about me of course. The thread is about Asian cases used in a "German" watch.
> 
> Does the seller deny this? I believe the seller does not deny this.
> 
> However I apparently need to "understand" the "explanations" and be "enlightened." Woe unto me. I thought a direct answer would be truthful, and I thought non-answers could have something to hide. That's how far off the mark I must be...


You put German in ". Let me ask, if the case is completely hand finished in-house, is there no German value? If the rotor is completely manufactured in-house, is there no German value.? If the Schatzle dials are manufactured in Germany, is there no German value? If movements are modified in-house, like some are, is there no German value? The designs are not of German value?

You've made up your mind that the cases are Chinese. Where do you go from here? Do you realize a timepiece is made up of a helluva lot more than just a case (again a hand finished one not just one off the shelf as is typical), or do you simply say well that's that and the vast other aspects of the watches just don't matter. You keep stating that Stowa is hiding something and yet we are praising them. We praise them because we realize the offerings as a whole are what we are paying for. We're perfectly fine living with a Chinese case if that case is finished by Stowa to perfection. Excuse us for not just being so matter of fact to say "well the cases are made in China, so on to the next brand". As anything in life, it's the sum of its parts, and that sum from Stowa is what's always going to be valued by others.


----------



## Rallyfan13

CM HUNTER said:


> You put German in ". Let me ask,


Sorry, no.

The topic of the thread is "Are Stowa cases made in Germany, or are they from asia [sic]."



> if the case is completely hand finished in-house, is there no German value?


Value is in the eye of the beholder. To some, "German value" may not even exist. Is there German effort in such a case? If performed as you describe, I'd say yes, unequivocally. So by extension yes: in your apparent intended use, yes, I believe that you believe there is German value.

I'll be honest: I do understand these points.



> Where do you go from here?


Well, I might go find an Atlas so I can sort out where the borders of Germany are currently. I don't see them in Asia...

I'm _kidding._

I respect your opinion and am glad you have expressed it to me.



> Excuse us for not just being so matter of fact to say "well the cases are made in China, so on to the next brand". As anything in life, it's the sum of its parts, and that sum from Stowa is what's always going to be valued by others.


I don't expect anyone to say "so on to the next brand" actually, and I cannot disagree with your statement above. The sum of the parts is going to be valued, as you do state.



Bradjhomes said:


> And that's up to you how you interpret it. No one can tell you to interpret it differently.
> 
> As for "they do it also" - I don't mean to use it as an excuse for anyone, but note as a statement of the Status Quo. That's how it is. I understand the sentiments of anyone who seeks to find out more. As consumers we should all want to know more. I guess I'm more resigned to 'that's just how it is' and accept that I'm probably never going to know. I buy watches based on this and form opinions based on how good the product is (as you say, no one is saying a case from one country is better than a case from another, but sometimes a little more transparency would be nice).
> 
> I don't believe you're going to get a full, exact and complete answer in this thread though. I don't honesty think you believe it either. That's why I ask why you keep asking the question.
> 
> We have the facts as best as we're going to get them currently. You state your conclusions above - and that's pretty much as far as anyone can go.


Understood and appreciated also. Cheers.

Thanks for the discussion gents.


----------



## dhtjr

stuffler said:


> Aren't the jewels sourced rather than in-house ?


I understood the Seiko jewels to be made in house, as well as the oils. But perhaps what I've read is not completely reliable, so I can't confirm this.


----------



## titov

Rallyfan13 said:


> Let's consider this:
> 
> If Chinese parts don't matter, then, well, I'm sure a maker responding to a direct question would be glad to tell us there are Chinese parts, and his/her fans will gladly cheer him/her on.
> 
> If on the other hand Chinese parts do matter... Hm...


They don't matter and they do matter.

Quality wise it doesn't matter - the only thing that matters is QC - quality control of the company using those parts. And you have to consider that e.g. EU cases can fall more QC tests then Asian...

Brand reputation wise, it does! And that is what Joerg was talking about! Other companies don't talk about this thing and why should he (although he was the most honest of them all, he was transparent for the last 10 years)? E.g. if Nomos uses more Chinese parts then Stowa but simply don't mention that part, while Joerg admits that some small bits are Chinese, Stowa would get completely wrongly associated with "lower quality"... You now see where things are going?


----------



## fotoman

All posts under this thread are legit to me. There is no BS whatsoever but over reaction in here though...

1. From Stowa's official statement, there is no doubt that some parts are not from Europe. 
2. I don't mind if those parts are from Asian or more specifically from China as long as the quality meets the specs. 
3. I have owned several stowa watches in the past and I am OK if any of them has parts made in China.
4. Personally I understand why Stowa doesn't want to disclose the origin of non-European parts. I believe there are people out there who think the same way as I do. 
5. I would assume maybe watch brands would be more than happy disclose their parts origin if they are from eg. USA:think:
6. It's not that difficult to accept the truth that China is the world factory. If Chinese enterprises and labors can make stuff like Iphone, Macbook, Buick Regal, Toyota Land Cruiser, BMW 5 series, AUDI q5, and C919, there is no reason they can't just make a quality watch case . 
7. Those who think you don't have things made in China, please raise up your hand.


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## alex10fr

dhtjr said:


> I understood the Seiko jewels to be made in house, as well as the oils. But perhaps what I've read is not completely reliable, so I can't confirm this.


Inside the case of my Seiko from the SARB family I can read "Made in China". But maybe there is a Seiko factory in China.

Alexandre


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## omeglycine

All I can say about the case on my Stowa Prodiver, and the cases of Stowas I've previously owned, is that the quality is on par with the finest cases at the price point. This should come as no surprise to those that know Jörg's passion for his watches and particularly top-notch casework (illustrated in the Schauer brand, where all cases are personally attended to by Jörg).


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## picanhapilot

Tiger-rider said:


> As for Stowa, I could care less about where some of their parts come from. I own 3 Stowa watches and they use Eta movements, they are well made in high quality. I enjoy wearing them even if you tell me some of the parts are from China or other Asian countries.


*You* might not care about the origins of your Stowa watch. Put another way: to you, there is no value in the provenance.

However, there IS huge market value in provenance. (I should have also capitalized HUGE). Whether product A is truly and objectively superior to product B produced at another location, is another matter. But fact is, there is $$$ implied and attached to the label "Made in Germany" (or Swiss, or Japan, or wherever else). That's why these things are regulated - why manufactures are obligated to be truthful in such labels.

I enjoy my Stowas, Limes, Sinns, Nomos, Meistersinger, Damasko, and etc (plural, in some cases).... I am not fully convinced they are all 100% sourced domestically. I would prefer they adhere to accurate explicit labels such as "Assembled in Germany" or "Build in Germany with majority German components".

This is one reason I'm especially fond of my Grand Seiko. 100% Japanese, top to bottom, nut to oil.


----------



## hidden830726

Ok, but "made in germany" is for the end product. Eg a movement, is a movement and its made in Swiss, but the end product, a watch, made in Germany. Nothing wrong with that as long as it fulfil the criteria. 

We dont say a watch assemble in x country, because... Stowa watch is made in Germany, however, agreed with you, its watch parts assemble in Germany. 

You can only assemble parts together..... You dont assemble a watch.

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


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## hidden830726

Im trolling a bit, dont bother me

A mix vietnamese wont announce in their identification card that they are made in vietnam but with some parts from french.... Off course if you ask, he may tell, but he can choose not to... 

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


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## picanhapilot

hidden830726 said:


> You can only assemble parts together..... You dont assemble a watch.
> 
> Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


a watch is an assemblage of its parts. are you kidding?


----------



## hidden830726

picanhapilot said:


> a watch is an assemblage of its parts. are you kidding?


Im technically right, dont i? hmm, maybe:

"parts + soul of the watchmaker = watch"


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## picanhapilot

hidden830726 said:


> Im technically right, dont i? hmm, maybe:
> 
> "parts + soul of the watchmaker = watch"


in which case jorg also needs to disclose the ethinicity of each employee involved in the watch assembly process


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## StufflerMike

picanhapilot said:


> in which case jorg also needs to disclose the ethinicity of each employee involved in the watch assembly process


This discussion is not getting us anywhere. Just saying.


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## ev13wt

If the case IS made in China (Or Africa for that matter) I say thank you for excellent quality control. My TO1 has been holding up like a champ, gets banged against walls and car parts while wrenching and small scratches just sort of disappear over time. No serious dings or anything else, and I am not gentle with it.

If the QA is good, which with from the metal itself, I don't care if a chinaman is operating the German CNC machine. Have you guys seen the parts houses and manufacturing plants over there? Heck, they are bigger and run newer machines than pretty much anyone in the USA or Germany.

If outsourcing a part as mundane as a case *keeps a brand alive and people with a job - I'm all for it!* Those dudes build Ti implants that go into your body, parts for the jets that fly you, I think they will get a case done. And since people still whine about things they just do not understand, I would never disclose information that could be put up on a wall by haters and idiots.

The finished product speaks for itself, I love my watch and still look at it daily with affection for the excellent engineering, fit and finish and over all - style. (And of course for what it means to me personally)


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## senna89wc12

I have had several Stowa watches and all of their cases are nothing but superb. The case of my TO2 is excellent. From the bezel to other surfaces of the cases the brushed finish is evenly executed. I do believe Stowa hand finishes their cases on site. The cases might be originated from the Far East but the most important thing is that they are hand finished and decorated beautifully.


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## picanhapilot

this is not the point. whether cases or any other part of any origin meet some quality standard is not the issue. 

the issue is transparency. you cant play the provenance game only to your favor. 

if you want to play up a certain teutonic reputation, and boast you are a small german manufacturer with a proud local workforce, do so. on the same coin, dont hide your your far east supply chain between small prints. if you are proud of your pacific sourcing, say so.

whether other competitors offer the same honestly is their prerogative. "but billy didnt do it either!" is not a mature manner of conduct.


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## ev13wt

picanhapilot said:


> this is not the point. whether cases or any other part of any origin meet some quality standard is not the issue.
> 
> the issue is transparency. you cant play the provenance game only to your favor.
> 
> if you want to play up a certain teutonic reputation, and boast you are a small german manufacturer with a proud local workforce, do so. on the same coin, dont hide your your far east supply chain between small prints. if you are proud of your pacific sourcing, say so.
> 
> whether other competitors offer the same honestly is their prerogative. "but billy didnt do it either!" is not a mature manner of conduct.


You know the kid in school that everyone hated for asking the teacher if they where going to check homework? You're that kid. 

I do wonder what your intent is here? A personal vendetta that nobody but you understands the point of?

Is a BMW a German car brand? Is Stowa a German watch brand? Made in Germany? As long as you don't have a company and employees that depend on a brand, kindly ____ off and stop discussing things you know nothing about.

edit: log off, I mean log off


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## picanhapilot

ev13wt said:


> You know the kid in school that everyone hated for asking the teacher if they where going to check homework? You're that kid.
> 
> I do wonder what your intent is here? A personal vendetta that nobody but you understands the point of?
> 
> Is a BMW a German car brand? Is Stowa a German watch brand? Made in Germany? As long as you don't have a company and employees that depend on a brand, kindly ____ off and stop discussing things you know nothing about.
> 
> edit: log off, I mean log off


bmw is a german car manufacturer that builds the majority of its car variously across germany, and some in south carolina as well; it is a common fact. if in doubt, look at the sticker inside the hood and/or b pillar that says clearly as such. i've owed cars that were built "100% in suzuka", japan; another in wolfsburg, germany; cassino, italy; and currently in dieppe, france. in all cases, that information is explicit.

my intent is to express my opinion -- on a discussion board, go figure -- on a topic about the origins of watch case, that it is fair for such information be clearly conveyed.

its not difficult to understand that point.

which is the more germane post, that opinion above, or your trying to twist that into such a personal issue?


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## hidden830726

picanhapilot said:


> this is not the point. whether cases or any other part of any origin meet some quality standard is not the issue.
> 
> the issue is transparency. you cant play the provenance game only to your favor.
> 
> if you want to play up a certain teutonic reputation, and boast you are a small german manufacturer with a proud local workforce, do so. on the same coin, dont hide your your far east supply chain between small prints. if you are proud of your pacific sourcing, say so.
> 
> whether other competitors offer the same honestly is their prerogative. "but billy didnt do it either!" is not a mature manner of conduct.


Then it go back to the point, integrity... Transparency is only for what you can reveal to maintain competitiveness. If a law said now all german company must declare their source, then im sure stowa (like everyone else in the business) will declare theirs.

The point is, stowa do not explicitly lie about it.

Its like, you have a secret, your fren want to know the secret, so you can choose not to tell. So the fren keep asking. And asked: is stowa case from asia, if that is yes, but you say no, then that's simply lying. But that's not the case here, here you answer to the friend: this is a secret and im not telling you until everyone (including you) tell me theirs (secret).

There is no transparency problem here. Because its a trade secret.

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


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## Recoil Rob

I don't own a STOWA yet but plan to get one in the near future. It doesn't matter to me where the case is sourced as long as it measures up to STOWA quality.

Having said that the OP asked a simple question that could have been answered with a simple yes/no response. Instead there has been more evasion and double talk than Hillary Clinton in front of the Benghazi commission. 

Just answer the question and live by your decision, wherever you source the cases from.


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## svetoslav

Well, there are so many replica Chinese watches that are built to very high standards. Would I buy a fake Rolex? Noooo! Would I be happy if Rolex uses Chinese parts in its watches that are almost indistinguishable from the Swiss made ones? Noooo again! The problem is of identity and integrity. I look at my watch and at my iPhone differently. The IPhone states that is designed in California, it is nowhere advertised that it is MADE in the USA, while Stowa is advertised as a German brand with an advertised in-house watch production.


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## Orsoni

If you don't like it, move on. There are plenty of other watch brands.

Personally, my MO remains one of my favorites after 2 years in my collection.


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## StufflerMike

A


svetoslav said:


> Well, there are so many replica Chinese watches that are built to very high standards. Would I buy a fake Rolex? Noooo! Would I be happy if Rolex uses Chinese parts in its watches that are almost indistinguishable from the Swiss made ones? Noooo again! The problem is of identity and integrity. I look at my watch and at my iPhone differently. The IPhone states that is designed in California, it is nowhere advertised that it is MADE in the USA, while Stowa is advertised as a German brand with an advertised in-house watch production.


You need to visit the Stowa premises, you seem to know little if not nothing about their in-house watch production.


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## Recoil Rob

Not a question of liking it or not, it's a question of a simple question asked and not simply answered.


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## CM HUNTER

Jorge's reasoning, therefore answer, is simple for him. If that happens to be complicated for you (and obviously it is), so be it.


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## picanhapilot

CM HUNTER said:


> Jorge's reasoning, therefore answer, is simple for him. If that happens to be complicated for you (and obviously it is), so be it.


his answer wasn't "complicated", it's evasive.

god forbid people express an opinion on a message board without it offending someone's sensibilities....


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## svetoslav

Mike, I like my Marine Original very much, the only thing that could make it better for me is a true vitreous enamel dial. I also like Stowa as a brand and I'd like to see it pushed into a higher tier direction.


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## CM HUNTER

picanhapilot said:


> his answer wasn't "complicated", it's evasive.
> 
> god forbid people express an opinion on a message board without it offending someone's sensibilities....


Evasive? I heard the owner of the company clearly give an answer. It may not be a straightforward answer some are looking for, but then again, he gave a reason behind that answer as well. It's not a yes/no answer and since that is all some are going to accept, and you're not going to get it, know that and move on.


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## tdk

ev13wt said:


> If the case IS made in China (Or Africa for that matter) I say thank you for excellent quality control. My TO1 has been holding up like a champ, gets banged against walls and car parts while wrenching and small scratches just sort of disappear over time. No serious dings or anything else, and I am not gentle with it.
> 
> If the QA is good, which with from the metal itself, I don't care if a *chinaman *is operating the German CNC machine. Have you guys seen the parts houses and manufacturing plants over there? Heck, they are bigger and run newer machines than pretty much anyone in the USA or Germany.
> 
> If outsourcing a part as mundane as a case *keeps a brand alive and people with a job - I'm all for it!* Those dudes build Ti implants that go into your body, parts for the jets that fly you, I think they will get a case done. And since people still whine about things they just do not understand, I would never disclose information that could be put up on a wall by haters and idiots.
> 
> The finished product speaks for itself, I love my watch and still look at it daily with affection for the excellent engineering, fit and finish and over all - style. (And of course for what it means to me personally)


Some people might find "chinaman" racist.


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## ev13wt

tdk said:


> Some people might find "chinaman" racist.


Huh? Apologies to any Chinese women CNC operators that I offended.


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## hidden830726

Im chinaman btw. U probably doesnt mean it.

Anyhow, Comparing Rolex with stowa is meh.

Also, its a blessing that Jorg is being engaging as always. If he share 80% is euro parts, then so be it. 

So, is Nomos case from Asia? How bout Archimede? How about Panerai? Bell & Ross? 




Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


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## Recoil Rob

It doesn't matter whose cases are made where, that's the old "if everyone else was jumping off a cliff" mentality. What matters is a simple question got an evasive answer, as if there was something to hide.

I don't know George, I like his products, as I said I plan on purchasing one. But it seems to me that he could have just answered the question in a clear, concise manner and put this to rest.

I am surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet or even deleted....



hidden830726 said:


> So, is Nomos case from Asia? How bout Archimede? How about Panerai? Bell & Ross?
> 
> Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


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## hidden830726

Why doesnt matter for other brand? Why Stowa matter?

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


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## Recoil Rob

hidden830726 said:


> Why doesnt matter for other brand? Why Stowa matter?
> 
> Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


Last time, it doesn't matter for STOWA or anyone else. What matters is a question asked and not clearly answered. If you don't see that, then OK.


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## tdk

A question was asked. An answer given. If you don't like the answer don't buy the watch. If you don't like the watch don't buy it. 
If you want something with a little less Asian parts buy a Lange. I wonder how much of a Glashutte Original watch is Asian since there were reports of Omega parts being made in China.


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## ev13wt

hidden830726 said:


> Im chinaman btw. U probably doesnt mean it.
> 
> Anyhow, Comparing Rolex with stowa is meh.
> 
> Also, its a blessing that Jorg is being engaging as always. If he share 80% is euro parts, then so be it.
> 
> So, is Nomos case from Asia? How bout Archimede? How about Panerai? Bell & Ross?
> 
> Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


I actually went and looked up the term. I am sorry if I offended you. I did mean it like "Englishmen" has always been used: A gentleman from England. I didn't know that these days, this term is rather negative.


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## ev13wt

Recoil Rob said:


> Last time, it doesn't matter for STOWA or anyone else. What matters is a question asked and not clearly answered. If you don't see that, then OK.


I think the answer was clear enough: We will not deny nor confirm this AKA we will not comment on this subject. (We = Stowa / Jorg)

How is that not an answer?


----------



## Up-n-coming

ev13wt said:


> I think the answer was clear enough: We will not deny nor confirm this AKA we will not comment on this subject. (We = Stowa / Jorg)
> 
> How is that not an answer?


Definitely clear enough for people that are Stowa fans. If you actually own a Stowa you will be a fan. Quality is excellent for the price. If that isn't enough for some people and they insist on questioning Stowa quality or Jorg's integrity/transparency then Stowa's product probably isn't for them. If that's the case, move on. Questioning the origin of Stowa's cases is like beating a dead horse at this point. Nothing will come of it.

BTW, Nomos cases are sourced from Switzerland. How dare them, they should be made in Germany like the rest of the parts!


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## svetoslav

Ickler case - The high-quality case is manufactured by ICKLER in Pforzheim.- That is from the Archimede site. Damasko make all their cases, crowns and bracelets inhouse from their own steel and their watches are in a comparable price range as Stowa. Go figure. I am not a racist, I just think that "made in China" is not a respected sign when it comes to watchmaking. That is why it is spared, which I find somewhat dishonest.


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## elbilo

svetoslav said:


> Ickler case - The high-quality case is manufactured by ICKLER in Pforzheim.- That is from the Archimede site. Damasko make all their cases, crowns and bracelets inhouse from their own steel and their watches are in a comparable price range as Stowa. Go figure. I am not a racist, I just think that "made in China" is not a respected sign when it comes to watchmaking. That is why it is spared, which I find somewhat dishonest.


Ickler and Damasko make their cases in-house, so they don't need to worry about disclosing a supply chain that competitors could have access to and potentially disrupt. Jorg clearly stated that the supplier will not be revealed, which makes total sense (at least to several of us). He spent a lot of time and money on forging a relationship with a specific supplier, so why offer such info for competitors to take advantage of. He clearly mentioned that he sources outside of Germany if it's of higher quality than what's available in Germany.

I didn't want to get involved in this, but this thread has become a cockroach that won't die! Like others have said, if you're not satisfied with the answer given, then move along.


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## enyn90

imho, for the price Stowa charges (the premium over the competition), and taking into consideration the third-party movements used, I would expected most, if not all the production to be in Germany - that's the value-add I expect when I bought my Stowa Flieger. 

'Made in China' has come a long way, and it is incredibly snobbish to think otherwise. Having said that, the price reflects German skilled-labor, and craftsmanship.


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## CM HUNTER

elbilo said:


> Ickler and Damasko make their cases in-house, so they don't need to worry about disclosing a supply chain that competitors could have access to and potentially disrupt. Jorg clearly stated that the supplier will not be revealed, which makes total sense (at least to several of us). He spent a lot of time and money on forging a relationship with a specific supplier, so why offer such info for competitors to take advantage of. He clearly mentioned that he sources outside of Germany if it's of higher quality than what's available in Germany.
> 
> I didn't want to get involved in this, but this thread has become a cockroach that won't die! Like others have said, if you're not satisfied with the answer given, then move along.


Excellent point that SHOULD make sense to ANYONE. Along the same lines, Ickler provides their cases to 3rd party watch brands, and refuses to reveal who those brands are (I only know of two and that was after doing extensive digging). So, answer some folks are looking for or not from Stowa, silence to keep a competitive edge is not an uncommon practice in the industry.


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## Recoil Rob

The OP asked if the cases were made in China, I doubt a simple "yes" would have lead to a certain supplier and interruption of the supply chain...keep beating the drum boys.


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## Orsoni

If 80% is not good enough for you, then move on. Stowa is not the watch for you.

Simple.


----------



## elbilo

Recoil Rob said:


> The OP asked if the cases were made in China, I doubt a simple "yes" would have lead to a certain supplier and interruption of the supply chain...keep beating the drum boys.


If I were a competitor of STOWA and found out the geographical region where their cases are sourced, then I would certainly do more digging to find out specifically who sources them.

Now, back to my drumming ...


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## enyn90

Orsoni said:


> If 80% is not good enough for you, then move on. Stowa is not the watch for you.
> 
> Simple.


I would have preferred the case not be in the 20% though.

I still have the smile on my face when I put on my flieger, but I am not going to deny that it feels 'different' after this episode.


----------



## svetoslav

If I was Stowa competitor, I would make my cases to a higher standards. I have one watch from Stowa, a MO and I like it very much, but that does not mean that I find it perfect. If I did, I wouldn't participate in this tread at all. I claim the case of my MO is not on par with other watches I own. The polish on my Oris John Coltrane reveals immaculate mirror surfaces and curvatures. When I touch it, all edges are smooth and nice. My MO case has slightly warped mirrors on the left side of the watch that speaks of certain geometric imperfections. When I touch the case back and especially where it joins the case I feel very sharp edges here and there. I don't say that it is terrible, but it is not at the same level as other competitively priced watches. So now, when the origin of Stowa cases remains officially undisclosed, but non-German for sure, I return to my initial observations upon my MO, just they seem more reasonable this time around.


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## flyingpicasso

svetoslav said:


> If I was Stowa competitor, I would make my cases to a higher standards. I have one watch from Stowa, a MO and I like it very much, but that does not mean that I find it perfect. If I did, I wouldn't participate in this tread at all. I claim the case of my MO is not on par with other watches I own. The polish on my Oris John Coltrane reveals immaculate mirror surfaces and curvatures. When I touch it, all edges are smooth and nice. My MO case has slightly warped mirrors on the left side of the watch that speaks of certain geometric imperfections. When I touch the case back and especially where it joins the case I feel very sharp edges here and there. I don't say that it is terrible, but it is not at the same level as other competitively priced watches. So now, when the origin of Stowa cases remains officially undisclosed, but non-German for sure, I return to my initial observations upon my MO, just they seem more reasonable this time around.


While Stowa sources the machined cases from a supplier, it was my understanding that they grind/polish them in house. Others who have more insight on that process please jump in.


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## ATXWatch

svetoslav said:


> If I was Stowa competitor, I would make my cases to a higher standards. I have one watch from Stowa, a MO and I like it very much, but that does not mean that I find it perfect. If I did, I wouldn't participate in this tread at all. I claim the case of my MO is not on par with other watches I own. The polish on my Oris John Coltrane reveals immaculate mirror surfaces and curvatures. When I touch it, all edges are smooth and nice. My MO case has slightly warped mirrors on the left side of the watch that speaks of certain geometric imperfections. When I touch the case back and especially where it joins the case I feel very sharp edges here and there. I don't say that it is terrible, but it is not at the same level as other competitively priced watches. So now, when the origin of Stowa cases remains officially undisclosed, but non-German for sure, I return to my initial observations upon my MO, just they seem more reasonable this time around.


I have two Stowa watches. One is brushed and one polished and BOTH cases are immaculate from what I can tell. That said, I don't own a Rolex, PP, AP, VC or any of the other uber-expensive brands, so I cannot make a comparison. But I certainly find the watch to look and run beautifully especially considering the cost of the watches.


----------



## senna89wc12

6 years apart from these two watches. I don't see any changes in quality. The Flieger 2801 LE still looks amazing after all these years. The TO2 is stunning in all aspects. I would say the hand finishing job done by Stowa in house is amazing. In a competitive market it's perfectly understandable that watch companies do not want to disclose who their suppliers are. If they do they would only harm themselves by letting their direct competitors know their sources. In reality, no companies have the obligation to let the customers know who they buy from. For me, I always believe that it doesn't matter where the cases are originated, as long as they are well-made and finished nicely.


----------



## ev13wt

From my amateur internet research and asking around in certain circles, it seems Fricker is a provider of cases to Stowa, which Stowa then finishes. Fricker is certainly a German company. Not sure which cases and if all cases come from them.

http://www.w-fricker.de/englisch/unternehmen.html

They are located 16 Minutes from Stowa. Makes sense to me.


----------



## senna89wc12

ev13wt said:


> From my amateur internet research and asking around in certain circles, it seems Fricker is a provider of cases to Stowa, which Stowa then finishes. Fricker is certainly a German company. Not sure which cases and if all cases come from them.
> 
> http://www.w-fricker.de/englisch/unternehmen.html
> 
> They are located 16 Minutes from Stowa. Makes sense to me.











Fricker is certainly a supplier of Stowa.

Link: A trip to Stowa


----------



## CM HUNTER

elbilo said:


> If I were a competitor of STOWA and found out the geographical region where their cases are sourced, then I would certainly do more digging to find out specifically who sources them.
> 
> Now, back to my drumming ...


Lol. Would rather beat my drumb than a dead horse.


----------



## CM HUNTER

svetoslav said:


> If I was Stowa competitor, I would make my cases to a higher standards. I have one watch from Stowa, a MO and I like it very much, but that does not mean that I find it perfect. If I did, I wouldn't participate in this tread at all. I claim the case of my MO is not on par with other watches I own. The polish on my Oris John Coltrane reveals immaculate mirror surfaces and curvatures. When I touch it, all edges are smooth and nice. My MO case has slightly warped mirrors on the left side of the watch that speaks of certain geometric imperfections. When I touch the case back and especially where it joins the case I feel very sharp edges here and there. I don't say that it is terrible, but it is not at the same level as other competitively priced watches. So now, when the origin of Stowa cases remains officially undisclosed, but non-German for sure, I return to my initial observations upon my MO, just they seem more reasonable this time around.


The end result is very German, done to Schauer standards. You're the first I've ever seen to actually have a problem with that level. No doubt influenced by the pure speculation running through this thread.

The facts about your case is this:
1) Fricker is a German case maker, and Jorge sourced from them. Fricker's standing in the industry speaks for itself.
2) Jorge's talented team takes those cases and finishes them to their high standards.

These are the FACTS you're dealing with in this thread. All this other heresay only carries any weight if someone can prove that Fricker has an Asian based plant. People have speculated for years that they do, but I've never once seen any evidence at all to support their claims. I'm one to follow facts, not conspiracy theories.


----------



## ev13wt

svetoslav said:


> My MO case has slightly warped mirrors on the left side of the watch that speaks of certain geometric imperfections. When I touch the case back and especially where it joins the case I feel very sharp edges here and there. I don't say that it is terrible, but it is not at the same level as other competitively priced watches.


And you have explained this to Stowa, and have given them a chance to make it right?


----------



## titov

Reading Stowa forum and replays from Joerg, I've got a feeling that surely Stowa would fix the finish of your watch if you would step in contact with them when you received the watch.


----------



## svetoslav

OK, I like my MO and until this moment I thought that maybe side surfaces of the watch are slightly concave by design, despite that I prefer them being completely straight - that is the shape of the watch being a perfect cylinder and not sort of a minor hiperboloide. Even now I am not sure if it is a shape or misshape, independent of the case origin. I can just say that as I feel it, straight walls of the watch case would have oozed extreme quality for me. As would a dial without that slight hump on the subdial near the centre of the seconds hand.
But I stop writing in this thread, because I really don't want to be misunderstood, and I get the impression that it is exactly what is happening.
I like Stowa very much and I find MO to be extremely beautiful and quality watch with some minor visual glitches ( at least my piece). 
If Jorg releases a limited edition with enamel dial, I'd be one of the first to place an order


----------



## elbilo

CM HUNTER said:


> Lol. Would rather beat my drumb than a dead horse.


my thoughts exactly!


----------



## ev13wt

I've noticed, after your post I inspected my watch very detailed, that my surfaces are very parallel and neatly finished. The tops of the lug edges are very slightly rounded, to the tune of around 1/50 mm, but the bottom edges of the lugs are "sharp" enough to take off fingernail material if I drag one across it.

I don't know if this is intent (sharp, clean visual lines) or not (forgot to spec broken edges). With a magnifying glass, I can also see very faint hints of machining lines in the sides of the bezel. Otherwise the watch is dead perfect. Bezel line up at 12 is dead nuts 0/0. Which is something I really hate when its off, or the bezel has play in it.

Except that scratch on the glass that, while faint, is bugging the heck out of me. But that is not Jorgs fault, now is it?  Do the TO1s have AR on the outside? No blue tint on mine, but it appears anti reflective. Never could find that info. The stickies are outdated too.  Edit: The bottom glass certainly has some blue tint something on the outside, half of it has rubbed off (middle part with skin contact).


How does a certain maker of very awesome ti custom flashlights say: "My products are hand finished, and may bear certain finishing or machining marks. If your flashlight has zero marks, please send it back and we will add one for you free of charge." (c) mcgizmo


----------



## enyn90

senna89wc12 said:


> ev13wt said:
> 
> 
> 
> From my amateur internet research and asking around in certain circles, it seems Fricker is a provider of cases to Stowa, which Stowa then finishes. Fricker is certainly a German company. Not sure which cases and if all cases come from them.
> 
> http://www.w-fricker.de/englisch/unternehmen.html
> 
> They are located 16 Minutes from Stowa. Makes sense to me.
> 
> 
> 
> [iurl="https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5744410&d=1445446911"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/iurl]
> 
> Fricker is certainly a supplier of Stowa.
> 
> Link: A trip to Stowa
Click to expand...

Fricker case quality, and Schauer's finishing were part of the reason I believe Stowa commands a higher standing than its competitors.

Over here, the same people who sold us on these values of the case finishing, are now passing the notion that the origin of the watches does not matter, with the 80-20 argument.


----------



## flappylove

This thread is tiresome. Like a really stupid dog chasing its own tail.
Not disclosing the source of the cases is something Jorg is perfectly entitled to do. This does not make it suspicious, does not create a scandal. 
Some of the posts on this thread sound like hack journalists chasing a story that doesn't exist. Why do you want to find something damning? (and why is something sourced in China damning anyway? I don't know if you've seen China lately but they do some pretty exceptional things over there) 

To question the integrity of a businessman who engages so personally with his customers and manages a company as personable and dedicated to quality as Stowa is embarrassing.


----------



## Tha Baron

Can someone please give me the last 10 minutes of my life back after reading this thread... Wow

To be honest, the origin of x% or cases from one country over another is pointless. There is nothing in this world of any complexity that is produced from a single country. Seems arbitrary to me so long as the manufacturer isn't misleading by any source claims of the product.

Im willing to bet that nearly all Swiss watch brands have something of Chinese origins within their supply chain. How much Middle eastern oil drives these supply chains?

I'll bet Jorg doesn't divulge the exact suppliers of every part for many reasons:

Does the "made in China" stigma hurt (considering the numerous counterfeits from there)? Sure. But why should he be pressed/demanded to explicitly disclose that if others won't? I'll buy this and defend his choice of words. If you don't agree, start with Rolex and ask them direct source of every part in their supply chain first!

You do realize other companies that get parts, say for example watch cases, from a Swiss supplier could very easily use Chinese raw materials or semi-processed parts that they merely finish in Switzerland. This other company then can play the game and say, "I get my cases from Switzerland". But how do you know the true underlying source country or what % was China vs. Swiss?

Perhaps he wont divulge the origin of the cases that perhaps a direct competitor of his uses. Then you'd all jump on and say, "Really, they use the same case mfg. as Steinhart/Domasko/etc. I thought I was buying a Stowa."

OR Perhaps watch companies can use multiple suppliers for different cases or even different batches. Then everyone would be specifically requesting the Prodiver with the Case made in Austria and not the one made in Poland!

At the end of the day, Stpwa watches are high quality German watches sold at a great value. Jorg really puts himself out there by personally participating in this forum and doesn't owe us a damn thing because someone simply asked a question the OP, and others, thought he/they "deserved" an answer to.

Besides, who cares where a case comes from as long as the metal is quality and the finish is up to par...


----------



## enyn90

so this thread transform from "no, that must be a fake case, or someone must have used the case and put in the Chinese dial and movement" to "no, the origin of the case does not matter, shame on you to even question the origin"

firstly, I will clarify that I love my stowa flieger. secondly, when this thread started, I belong to the group that believe the case is a fake. 

but the direction this thread appears to stir to, imply that yes the case might be made by the Chinese, which I take offense to, not because it may be made by the Chinese, but because dozen of threads online credit Stowa for the use of Fricker case, and Stowa's finishing - both of which plays a big part in the buying process, when making comparison to other "lesser" brands


----------



## picanhapilot

flappylove said:


> Not disclosing the source of the cases is something Jorg is perfectly entitled to do.


Noone asked for exact manufacturer.



> This does not make it suspicious, does not create a scandal.


Noone characterized this as a scandal



> Some of the posts on this thread sound like hack journalists chasing a story that doesn't exist. Why do you want to find something damning?


Noone has expressed their intent as to find something damning



> [(and why is something sourced in China damning anyway? I don't know if you've seen China lately but they do some pretty exceptional things over there)


Contradicting yourself. If Chinese manufacturing is not damning, why do you paint those who might be trying to get a confirmation of that fact as trying "to find something damning"



> To question the integrity of a businessman who engages so personally with his customers and manages a company as personable and dedicated to quality as Stowa is embarrassing.


I find this strawmen argument embarassing, as are the behavior of those who seemingly take personal offense at anything that *might* be perceived as a slight to some object(s) they worship.

Stowa makes nice watches - I even own them.

Horology is a hobby. It's perfectly natural for people to have curiosity over things they spend their money on. It's not a tribunal, its not a witch hunt. Get over the defensive attitude.


----------



## hidden830726

My guess is, purely hypo:

Stowa cases along with many other brands used to get their case from Fricker, but overtime, things have change, and maybe its more feasible to source somewhere else and there's even saying that Fricker now have a secret plant in china. 

Im not sure whether Stowa still source from Fricker, but with now since the origin and input for Fricker case also being questions, there is simply nothing safe from china / Asia. Getting case from German or Swiss company doesnt mean the product is not from China /Asia. 

Step back and think about it, it doesn't make sense from business point of view to ignore the oppourtunity to cut down on cost as long as the quality remains. From what I read, most watch company, Stowa included, add value by polishing their cases themselves. 

So yes, we havent heard much from this subject because its an industry trade secret and its a can full of worms, and no one is going to open the can and show it to you. I am as curious as you, you and you, but... 

For X files fans: The truth is out there.... 

Can we at least peace out and wait for the return of X files to the TV screen?

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


----------



## Spunwell

hidden830726 said:


> My guess is, purely hypo:
> 
> Stowa cases along with many other brands used to get their case from Fricker, but overtime, things have change, and maybe its more feasible to source somewhere else and there's even saying that Fricker now have a secret plant in china.
> 
> Im not sure whether Stowa still source from Fricker, but with now since the origin and input for Fricker case also being questions, there is simply nothing safe from china / Asia. Getting case from German or Swiss company doesnt mean the product is not from China /Asia.
> 
> Step back and think about it, it doesn't make sense from business point of view to ignore the oppourtunity to cut down on cost as long as the quality remains. From what I read, most watch company, Stowa included, add value by polishing their cases themselves.
> 
> So yes, we havent heard much from this subject because its an industry trade secret and its a can full of worms, and no one is going to open the can and show it to you. I am as curious as you, you and you, but...
> 
> For X files fans: The truth is out there....
> 
> Can we at least peace out and wait for the return of X files to the TV screen?
> 
> Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk


Hear ya on the x files, hope they don't suck.


----------



## fachiro1

Been a long time fan is Jorge and his companies. This is by memory from years ago but I believe that the pro diver cases were made by Fricker. Maybe some of the other cases too. That all might have changed since years ago.

What I wanted to say is that thank you Jorg for pricing your watches at what they are. You could certainly charge more for the quality you are putting out. Running a business and putting out quality requires a balance. You have to make a profit. I can totally understand when you out source in order to decrease cost and maximize profit. 

So what Jorg is saying is that with a 70 or 80 to 20 to 30 percent ratio of parts, he turning out a great product that we all really like at a good price point. If he didn't source parts, that price point probably would be a lot higher, so in the end, we, the end users reap the benefits. 

Stowa is a German company. Whoever says it's Chinese or whatever is just ridiculous. Doesnt Jorg live and work in Germany? I dont think the Stowa company is in China.

Never had a Stowa watch that was anything but excellent.


----------



## svetoslav

I prefer 20 to 30 percent more expensive watch that is 100% German.


----------



## flyingpicasso

svetoslav said:


> I prefer 20 to 30 percent more expensive watch that is 100% German.


I don't think that watch exists.


----------



## CM HUNTER

svetoslav said:


> I prefer 20 to 30 percent more expensive watch that is 100% German.


Doesn't quite work that way. There are a pretty good number of 100% (very close) German manufacturers out there. Just expect to pay roughly 6x the average Stowa prices for one. Happy shopping!


----------



## hidden830726

svetoslav said:


> I prefer 20 to 30 percent more expensive watch that is 100% German.


OK, buy one and show some pics...


----------



## ev13wt

Further research found that the Stowa rubber straps are actually made in Italy. (Sports models) Of course this has nothing to do with the watch itself, but its neither Germany NOR China.

Available without Stowa laser for 34 USD (Second link)

BONETTO CINTURINI - Rubber Straps for Watches, General Catalogue
https://www.globalwatchband.com/italian-mens-rubber-deployment-watch-band-strap-24mm.html

Found while looking for 24mm straps for my TO1.


----------



## StufflerMike

ev13wt said:


> Further research found that the Stowa rubber straps are actually made in Italy. (Sports models) Of course this has nothing to do with the watch itself, but its neither Germany NOR China.
> 
> Available without Stowa laser for 34 USD (Second link)
> 
> BONETTO CINTURINI - Rubber Straps for Watches, General Catalogue
> https://www.globalwatchband.com/italian-mens-rubber-deployment-watch-band-strap-24mm.html
> 
> Found while looking for 24mm straps for my TO1.


As Jörg stated:"80 percent of the value of Stowa watches is created in Europe". Thanks for the proof.


----------



## Tha Baron

Nothing like that very vanilla Italian Rubber!!

In any event, its pretty tasteless to pick apart Stowa for using components not 100% sourced from within the 2-acre plot of land surrounding Stowa's factory... especially considering the exceptional value they are.



ev13wt said:


> Further research found that the Stowa rubber straps are actually made in Italy. (Sports models) Of course this has nothing to do with the watch itself, but its neither Germany NOR China.
> 
> Available without Stowa laser for 34 USD (Second link)
> 
> BONETTO CINTURINI - Rubber Straps for Watches, General Catalogue
> https://www.globalwatchband.com/italian-mens-rubber-deployment-watch-band-strap-24mm.html
> 
> Found while looking for 24mm straps for my TO1.


----------



## Jpfahrstar

This thread is an example of how crazy forum threads can go. Jorg makes some really nice watches and some people just can't stop whining and complaining.


----------



## ev13wt

Tha Baron said:


> Nothing like that very vanilla Italian Rubber!!
> 
> In any event, its pretty tasteless to pick apart Stowa for using components not 100% sourced from within the 2-acre plot of land surrounding Stowa's factory... especially considering the exceptional value they are.


Do read the entire thread before you jump at me for being tasteless.  I feel I am quite factual with my posts, without attacking anyone - not members or Stowa.


----------



## Ric Capucho

Orsoni said:


> If 80% is not good enough for you, then move on. Stowa is not the watch for you.
> 
> Simple.


Good point. And neither is Rolex, Omega, Tag Heuer, and the looooong list continues.

Is it a full moon, or what?

The movement of Swiss watches must be more than 50% Swiss "by value", and the overall watch must also be more than 50% Swiss "by value", and final assembly must be in Switzerland. Where do those foaming at the mouth over some sort of shocking exposé of Stowa think that the major Swiss brands source their other 49% "by value" from? Peru, perchance? Or maybe a small factory in the south of Norway? Wake up, folks, even Boeing outsources huge components from China.

Global economy, innit.

Take the self-righteousness over to the Omega forum, so we Stowa fan boys can return to admiring our Fliegers. Hmm....

Ric


----------



## brainless

Ric Capucho said:


> .......so we Stowa fan boys can return to admiring our Fliegers.


I can't agree with you Ric.

You forgot to mention the Marines, the Anteas, the Seatimes, the Eximas, the Partitios, the.............

Volker ;-)


----------



## hidden830726

Everytime i saw notification that someone posted on this thread i will have this thought:

*Oh no!, please don't revive this thread!*


----------



## Watchyman

I think that Ickler (Archimede) manufactures theirs in Pzorfheim.


----------



## hbk75

stowa pilot straps are really good for value and lasting. i have one on my laco and it still looks good after many years. but my original laco ones have already reduced it's width size and I can see the spring bars at the edges.


----------



## Gerrard8

Interesting information and discussion.


----------



## Gerrard8

Actually, I was aware of this Rodina, my understanding is that it is a small group of people in China (or HongKong), who use a Russian name 'Rodina', bought movements from Seagull. Whether the watches are made in their own workshop or in Seagull factory, I am not sure. But I think the later case is unlikely, Seagull is a big company and would not be interested in earning so little amount of money. Because from 'taobao', Rodina watches are sold for less than 100 euro (800 RMB). How much would Rodia pay for Seagull for making a watch, 10 euro? It makes sense they buy movement from Seagull, for something around 50 euro (1701 movement). But not buying watches from Seagull. 
But I also heard that Seagull might lease their production facility to the others, then it is difficult for me tell more.

Having looked into many other posts, another point I want to make is that: China watch companies can make very good watch cases, like seagull 819.415, is with a case vey nice, comparable with Mido or Longines. I have a seagull 816.357, I am happy with the case (though not as good as 819.415) and movement, it gains 1 s per day consistently. I paid 2600 RMB (less than 400 euro) for it. But the case back is not in good quality. Good thing is that I do not need to see the watch back.
I also have a Stowa Ikarus, honestly, I am not so satisfied with the case, the connections between the lugs and the main body are not well treated, in short, these areas are not smooth, not uniform. I am thinking whether I need to bother Stowa to polish/improve the case a bit. Also the date window is a bit to the left, especially, when it is in two digits. At moment, I wear Seagull 816.357 more often than Stowa ikarus.



Jörg Schauer said:


> Hello,
> 
> now i could find the time to check some details of the fake.
> 
> Now i can say that this is not a "pimped or tuned" Original STOWA Antea KS 41 - i thought maybe somebody bought the Original watch and put in a other dial and movement.
> 
> But some of the casedetails (quality and engraving) are not bad made, but never this is or was a Original STOWA watch.
> 
> So i have to check if we can make something against the producer because they are using our Companys name and modellname.
> 
> But i think this will be a big fight from a small company like STOWA is against a big company (Seagull is a very big chinese company)
> 
> Lets see whats happen
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Jörg Schauer


----------



## cozmin

Same me


----------



## cozmin

enyn90 said:


> Orsoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> If 80% is not good enough for you, then move on. Stowa is not the watch for you.
> 
> Simple.
> 
> 
> 
> I would have preferred the case not be in the 20% though.
> 
> I still have the smile on my face when I put on my flieger, but I am not going to deny that it feels 'different' after this episode.
Click to expand...

You, damn right!


----------



## Doulos Christos

senna89wc12,
Just saw your link "A trip to Stowa". 
Enjoyed it much, thanks!


----------



## picanhapilot

hbk75 said:


> stowa pilot straps are really good for value and lasting. i have one on my laco and it still looks good after many years. but my original laco ones have already reduced it's width size and I can see the spring bars at the edges.


lest people get the false notion that im hellbent on spreading negatives re: stowa, i received a new flieger around the time of this thread.

the pilot strap that came with it is quite rubbish - chintzy, stiff, uncomfortable to wear, hard to fit in the clasp and buckle.

the standard strap is more supple, but is clearly cheap top-grain/corrected leather [i.e., original surface buffed down thin to hide irregularities]

is it horrendously bad? is it unreasonable expectation for a watch of this price? thats a personal answer, but (1) the cheapness in the strap is the immediate impression i received, (2) OE strap on the Stowa M.O. felt better, (3) only cheaper impression of watch at this price range was from Meistersinger, and finally (4) rest of watch - case, etc - felt good as expected


----------



## hidden830726

Ya, actually i am also think that the strap can be better or at least give us other options. But that is perhaps discussion for another thread. This thread we talk about the origin of case. haha


----------



## robi1138

Before I begin, let me state that I'm glad this thread has not been deleted because it contains a lot of good information and, more importantly, a fascinating debate. If anything, my recent thread about Stowa components should be deleted because it is repetitive (this was accidental on my part because I could only see threads from the last month, so this one was not visible to me).

What's most fascinating about this thread is that it raises important questions; or more correctly, one important question...the origin of Stowa cases. What's equally fascinating is how much my opinion changed as I read the thread...and this is what I want to postulate my own opinion on.

I couldn't help but agree with the majority of posts...from both sides of the discussion. This is extremely rare for me as I'm quite opinionated. That doesn't mean I'm closed-minded and can't see other people's points of view, but it's rare where I see both sides of an argument equally...as was the case (no pun intended) here.

Essentially the debate can be reduced to how important the provenance of a watch (or its individual components) is. This is not an easy thing to answer honestly to oneself. On one hand, I think all of us (being WISs) would be proud to say that our German or Swiss watches were 100% sourced, finished, and assembled from their respective countries of origin. This is probably not realistic unless you're buying a Patek Phillipe, A. Lange & Sohn, or Jaeger LeCoultre...maybe not even with these companies. On the flip side, I think most of us would be disappointed to learn that nearly half of the components in our Swiss or German watches were made and finished in, say, China and merely assembled in their respective countries of origin. So the question comes down to what compromises you can live with.

Before I address that let me address one other thing: Made in China. No three words (edited by mod, see rules and guidelines) creates so much controversy. Made in China is synonymous (at least in the U.S.) with cheap quality, cheap labor, etc. While there is plenty of truth to these opinions, it would be unfair to say that everything made in China falls into these categories. With that being said, the stigma of Made in China is not likely to disappear soon and I admit that I generally don't look favorably upon things made in China.

Getting back to my point, many watches that say "Made in Germany" or "Swiss Made" are a compromise. Just looking up "Swiss Made" on Wikipedia you will find not only what constitutes a watch's right to bear the "Swiss Made" logo but examples of such watches that may incorporate Asian-made dials, hands, and crystals as well as opinions on how lax the "Swiss Made" standard is in some people's eyes. In addition, Wikipedia states:

_"Made in Germany" is not controlled by a central regulatory body. However, its status has been defined by several court rulings in Germany. In 1995, the Oberlandesgericht Stuttgart ruled that the term Made in Germany is misleading according to Germany's Fair Trades Act when the largest part is not German raw materials or German craftsmanship._ (This may actually be good news in the case of watch cases as they could be considered the largest part of a watch)

The bottom line though is how much compromise is each of us willing to accept. Is the essence of Swiss Made and Made in Germany upheld if components come from foreign countries? I guess it depends what watch you own...and what country the part was sourced from. Excluding the ultra high-end watches mentioned earlier, I don't think most people have issues if major components are European sourced. I would inherently expect that the more expensive a watch is, the more it uses domestic sources but this is probably false. Once the sourcing moves out of Europe is when the problems arise. Few of us would be thrilled to learn that a component in our watch was sourced from China. Why? Because of the stigma "Made in China" carries with it but also because of the lengths many German and Swiss watch manufacturers (including Stowa) go to to stress the inherent high quality in the German and Swiss parts they purchase as well as the time and cost involved with finishing to Swiss and German standards. I am proud to read that my Stowa Flieger Sport uses expensive, hard to manufacture thermally-blued hands, and Swiss movements in TOP finish...and frankly, Stowa is just as (rightfully) proud. This is all part of horological provenance...something that all of us, to varying degrees, subscribe to. So, of course, when one reads that a major component like a case may have been sourced in China, it becomes a sore spot for some...including me. However, one must take into account the difference between sourcing a high quality Chinese component and finishing it domestically to high standards versus buying a cheap Asian made alternative and leaving it as is. Yes, a case, dial, bracelet, and hands are major components to a watch and should at least be finished in Germany or Switzerland but sourcing the original raw piece from a foreign country (even China) is not a huge deal IMHO if it is of equal or better quality to domestic options and is finished to high German and Swiss standards. That doesn't mean that I expect a German or Swiss watch manufacturer to source ALL of these components from China, but having one or two is not a huge deal to me especially seeing how many watches that bear the "Swiss Made" logo may in fact have even more components coming from China than Stowa does.

So why the change of heart? Put simply, because it's a Stowa. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Stowa fan boy. Before a few weeks ago I'd not even visited their website) let alone given them much thought and although they get glowing reviews here, I take everything with a grain of salt. But I sympathize with Stowa's stated philosophy and the position they're in in the watch community. They are not held in the same light as an IWC or an A. Lange & Sohn but they are not a Citizen either. In my eyes, they are the next step up from your affordable "Swiss" watches like Hamilton. But that's part of the dilemma...they are a company that makes beautiful, quality watches at relatively affordable prices. That's not an easy niche to fill without some compromises. I was at a local store the other day where the cheapest watch they had was Hamilton and it ran the gamut up to Jaeger LeCoultre. Some of the ultra high end pieces were exquisite but I'd have put Stowa (from the Flieger I own and the hundreds of pics I've seen of their other watches) up against, say, the Longines that I saw there. That's not a knock on Longines at all but their watches were mainly in the $2,000 - $3,000 range and I certainly didn't see twice the quality there. Even my favorite watch that I own, a Baume & Mercier Riviera XXL Chronograph 8724, is hardly worth the $4,300 retail price (I paid $2,000 from a local authorized dealer who had it at 50% off because it was discontinued and hadn't sold). It's a beautiful watch IMHO and worth what I paid for it but I never would've bought it at it's usual selling price of over $3,000. So Jorg has the same unenviable task manufacturing his watches that I have when buying watches (and other expensive things like cars, TVs, stereo equipment, etc.)...buying the nicest quality product I can find at a reasonably affordable price and knowing when I'm not gaining much more for my money when buying the next level up. Personally I think he and Stowa have done a great job of this and if they have to source a few minor things and maybe even one major thing (not the movement though, lol) from outside of Europe and maybe even China, as long as it is of equal quality to its domestic counterpart and is finished in Germany or Switzerland, than that's the compromise I've decided to accept. Should more and more components need to be sourced from China due to economic reasons, than I too would rather see a price increase from Stowa rather than a potential reduction in quality (or even a watch that was largely Chinese sourced)

Everything I own is a compromise to some extent because nothing that I own that's worth more than a few hundred dollars is the absolute best available because, frankly, I'm not a millionaire. But I am proud of everything I own that cost me some money because I took the time to pick out the absolute best that I could afford and have never been left wanting (and I'm not easy to please). These are the compromises I've made and are the same as most of us have to make. I am most thrilled when I buy something that I feel I could've paid twice as much for from another manufacturer and not gotten the same quality even at that price point than what I got from my purchase. After all I may not be able to afford the "best" of everything, but if I can get 90% of the way there in quality at a fraction of the price, than I'm happy.

So the question comes around again...what compromises can you live with?

Thanks for reading...sorry for writing a book on the topic.


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## dhtjr

Well, that is a long post, but I think well stated. Germans Fricker and Ickler make great cases, but not sure Stowa uses either. I love my Ikarus, including the case, wherever it comes from. I doubt Jorg would compromise quality with an inferior component, so if my watch case was sourced outside Europe, I'm sure Stowa made sure it was up to snuff. But I hear you; these types of products have emotion wrapped up in them, and we all weigh things a bit differently. It is interesting to see the different standards for "Made In...." Every country seems to have its own standard, and there's even a separate standard for Glashutte (which has resulted in a few lawsuits in the past). As far as I know, the toughest standard to meet is Made In America, perhaps a bit too tough in some instances.


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## StufflerMike

At times Fricker had a reference list online Stowa/Schauer was named there.


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## smuggled_sheep

svetoslav said:


> I am totally UNfine with Chinese parts and cases, good luck


go vintage...


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## usc1

I agree with Jorg. Why does any manufacturer have to divulge their source? Ask any other company to tell you where they source their parts and they will tell you to take a hike. Jorg was polite enough to give an answer. Rarely does an owner even answer a said question on their own forum or any forum for that matter. I trust Jorg and his assembly. As long as his company abides with the "Made in Germany" guidelines I am ok with that.

This is just conjecture but I bet all high end "Swiss" brands have some Chinese parts.


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