# CWC Watches - Issued or not?



## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

This is my "Silly Question" for the week - I promise! Is there a foolproof way that you can tell whether a CWC watch has been issued to a serving member of the UK armed forces, or not? :-S :-S


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## cal..45 (Jun 4, 2006)

yeah well, if you buy a CWC watch brandnew it apperantly couldn't be issued to a serving member of the UK armed forces :-D 

if you buy a used one from an AD, he might can tell you something about the items history...


regards, holger


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

cal..45 said:


> yeah well, if you buy a CWC watch brandnew it apperantly couldn't be issued to a serving member of the UK armed forces :-D
> 
> if you buy a used one from an AD, he might can tell you something about the items history...
> 
> regards, holger


So the answer is "No", then?


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## mrbieler (Jun 30, 2006)

I think that Silvermans _sometimes _sells issued CWC's, but the majority are new/not issued.

An issued watch will have the issue # / date issued stamped on the case back. Typically this will be a different sized and/or font then the factory markings.


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

mrbieler said:


> An issued watch will have the issue # / date issued stamped on the case back. Typically this will be a different sized and/or font then the factory markings.


Thanks a lot Jeff - just what I wanted to know. :-!


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## Viper (Oct 5, 2006)

Jeff is correct. Regardless, if you buy from Silvermans you'll have an authentic CWC unless you prefer an older _issue_ watch with some history behind it. Be wary of MWC watches. Those are not authentic British military issue watches.


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## cal..45 (Jun 4, 2006)

Junior said:


> So the answer is "No", then?


I would say the answer is *maybe*

btw: if you especially intersted in UK military watches you might want to take a look at www.nitewatches.com

the company claims their watches are issued to the british Special Air Service (SAS).

regards, holger


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## Viper (Oct 5, 2006)

If they are authentic British issue watches they will have a NATO stock number beginning with 6645-99. For example:









This one would have been issued to a chap in the Royal Navy back in 1987. The 0552 stamp corresponds to the Royal Navy (Army versions would be stamped W10, Royal Air Force versions would be stamped 6B, and Royal Marine versions would be stamped 0555). The serial # and issue date are stamped at the bottom.


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

Thanks again to everyone (especially Viper with exact details) for the help. My reason for asking is that I have an old CWC of Gulf War vintage (W10, with a 75300 series number, issued 91), and I wanted to see if it was distinguishable from one bought from Silvermans and knocked about a lot! It seems it is real - I wonder if there is any way to tell more exactly to which Unit/Group it may have been issued (probably not!)?


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## Viper (Oct 5, 2006)

I'm glad I could help. Like Jeff stated before, the civvy versions sold by Silvermans won't have a serial # and issue date stamp and you'll find some have a "C" stamped on them as well, but they're virtually indistinguishable from issue versions.










Note that the current RAF version below doesn't have the battery hatch and relies on luminova instead of tritium to illuminate the hands and markers.


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## paddlefoot64 (Feb 11, 2006)

I wonder if some watches were prepared for issue, by a branch of the military, and then never issued. Some properly stamped G-10s appear to have never been worn. I now have two watches from separate sources enroute to me. One has been worn and was probably issued. The other is stamped as if issued, but is in mint condition. I got carried away on the bay yesterday and will probably make a friend a good deal on one of the watches.


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

paddlefoot64 said:


> I wonder if some watches were prepared for issue, by a branch of the military, and then never issued. Some properly stamped G-10s appear to have never been worn. I now have two watches from separate sources enroute to me. One has been worn and was probably issued. The other is stamped as if issued, but is in mint condition. I got carried away on the bay yesterday and will probably make a friend a good deal on one of the watches.


My understanding is that the watches receive the issue numbers when they go into military stores, not when they leave them to be issued to soldiers.

So "issued" does not equal "worn".

Just my two _bezants'_ worth, of course.


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## paddlefoot64 (Feb 11, 2006)

I'm sure you are correct. It's sort of like weapons accepted by an armoury. I'm sure they prepare ahead of time rather than wait until one needs to be issued. Do British forces still get issue watches?


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## mrbieler (Jun 30, 2006)

Crusader said:


> My understanding is that the watches receive the issue numbers when they go into military stores, not when they leave them to be issued to soldiers.
> 
> So "issued" does not equal "worn".
> 
> Just my two _bezants'_ worth, of course.


That's my understanding as well.


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

paddlefoot64 said:


> ...One has been worn and was probably issued. The other is stamped as if issued, but is in mint condition...QUOTE]
> 
> I know what you mean. Mine is in perfect working condition, but has bent strap bars and a chipped crystal - the provenance indicates an Army model, possibly issued to an Infantryman in the Gulf War period. I think I'd much rather have it bent and battered, and not even replace the crystal, to keep it as authentic as possible. What do others think?:-S


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## paddlefoot64 (Feb 11, 2006)

Yes, I will probably keep the worn one since it could have been issued and the new one will be sold or given away as it was most likely not issued. Mine are both Royal Navy issue numbers.


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## Viper (Oct 5, 2006)

Mine is also Royal Navy issue dated 1990. It's got it's "character" scars here and there, but since I like to wear it I've polished the acrylic crystal. Looks almost new and the tritium still has some life to it after 16 years.


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## paddlefoot64 (Feb 11, 2006)

Looks to be in very good shape. I plan to wear it as a beater and give my MMT a rest. I hate to be without a watch even for a short period of time doing work outside the house. I am currently afraid I will get paint on or scratch one of my Sinns or Mk IIs. The acrylic crystal will be no problem as I have experience polishing my 356.


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## XTrooper (Feb 8, 2006)

Not "issued" which means nothing to me personally, but I love the CWC Royal Navy Diver I purchased new from Silverman's. It's quickly become my shooting range, Harley riding, general outdoor activities watch! B-)


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## Viper (Oct 5, 2006)

Good looking watch, especially with the Bond strap! :-!


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## Fynn (Oct 2, 2006)

I got my CWC G10 from Silvermans... It wasn't issued, simply bought.

However, it has become my 24 hr a day watch. Dependable, rugged, classic, and above all functional.

I couldn't be happier with it.:gold


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## Viper (Oct 5, 2006)

Fynn said:


> I got my CWC G10 from Silvermans... It wasn't issued, simply bought.
> 
> However, it has become my 24 hr a day watch. Dependable, rugged, classic, and above all functional.
> 
> I couldn't be happier with it.:gold


I agree with you 100%. The CWC G10 is one of my favourites as well. :-!


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

Viper said:


> I agree with you 100%. The CWC G10 is one of my favourites as well. :-!


I tried that, but the G10 lume was to weak ... so the watch pictured in your avatar (the Traser/H3 P6500) has become my everyday (and, more importantly) my everynight watch.


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## Viper (Oct 5, 2006)

Crusader said:


> I tried that, but the G10 lume was to weak ... so the watch pictured in your avatar (the Traser/H3 P6500) has become my everyday (and, more importantly) my everynight watch.


Crusader, you're right about the G10's lume. It doesn't stand a chance against the Traser P6500, but there's something about the G10 that makes it one of my favourite watches to wear. The Traser P6500 is also my #1 night time watch. B-)


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## XTrooper (Feb 8, 2006)

Viper said:


> Good looking watch, especially with the Bond strap! :-!


Thanks, Viper! B-)

FWIW, the lume on the Royal Navy Diver isn't any better. "Weak" would be an accurate description. This is, however, my only criticism of the watch and one I can live with.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

I have a couple of them. Great little beaters.

My favorite one is a 1980 Navigator, I picked it up for next to nothing because the quartz movement had crapped out and the previous owner couldn't get it fixed. Did you know that an ETA 2836-2 drops right in to those older (really thick) cases?


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

Viper said:


> Crusader, you're right about the G10's lume. It doesn't stand a chance against the Traser P6500, but there's something about the G10 that makes it one of my favourite watches to wear. The Traser P6500 is also my #1 night time watch. B-)


The advantage of the G10 over the Navigator is the smaller case, which is advantageous for daylight activities. One of the reasons why I had this Frankenwatch made of a Zeno Explorer case (35/36mm; with tritium vials):


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

Viper said:


> If they are authentic British issue watches they will have a NATO stock number beginning with 6645-99....The 0552 stamp corresponds to the Royal Navy (Army versions would be stamped W10, Royal Air Force versions would be stamped 6B, and Royal Marine versions would be stamped 0555). The serial # and issue date are stamped at the bottom.


I'm back again! Now that my interest has been activated, I seem to see CWC watches everywhere! I have been looking at some early ones (the thick cased variety, that are apparently fairly sought after), but whilst everything else matches this rule of thumb, there are no individual Service reference numbers (0552, W10, etc.). Is this correct - perhaps because they were general issue to all branches of the Forces, they may not have been specifically marked for the Army, Navy, etc.? The reference numbers I have seen are 6645-99 541-5317, with issue numbers in the series 1000/80 and 11000/80. Any further guidance and information will be gratefully received, as I can feel a CWC bug coming on!!;-) :-D :-D


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

A comparison of four of the five major case types used on CWC watches.

First type case, very thick for the ESA 532.121 movement, this example is a 1980 Navigator. (This particular one has an ETA 2836-2 in it.)









Second type case, used after 1982 (?) and fitted with a ETA 255.121









Third type case, these are fitted with ETA 955.122 movements









An example from Silverman's bought around 1997: 









The last type (that I do not have an example of) is the version produced in 2000 and do not have the battery hatch.


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

Very nice collection! Congratulations! :-! 

I treid to warm to the G10, but did not manage. Nevertheless, this is a very fine and successful watch model that is deservedly highly regarded. |>


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

Yes, thanks very much Lysander. From the pictures, it does look as though the early models (1980's with the thick case) did not have any individual Service numbers marked on them, even when they were issued - useful to know. :-!


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## Viper (Oct 5, 2006)

Junior said:


> I'm back again! Now that my interest has been activated, I seem to see CWC watches everywhere! I have been looking at some early ones (the thick cased variety, that are apparently fairly sought after), but whilst everything else matches this rule of thumb, there are no individual Service reference numbers (0552, W10, etc.). Is this correct - perhaps because they were general issue to all branches of the Forces, they may not have been specifically marked for the Army, Navy, etc.? The reference numbers I have seen are 6645-99 541-5317, with issue numbers in the series 1000/80 and 11000/80. Any further guidance and information will be gratefully received, as I can feel a CWC bug coming on!!;-) :-D :-D


Hi Junior. The numbers 6645-99 541-5317 are or rather "is" the 13 digit NATO stock number. The models that lack the government property mark, ie: W10, 0552, 0555, and 6B would have been non-issued samples. The serial # and issue date would follow the NATO stock # on an issued sample. As you can see in lysanderxiii's picture of his 'non-issued' sample purchased in 1997 from Silvermans, it only has the NATO stock number.

Here are a few Ministry of Defence standard links that no CWC enthusiast should be without. (They're in pdf format so you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view them.):

General Service Wristwatch

Luminous & Non-Luminous Navigator Wristwatch

Electronic Quartz Chronometer

Stop Watch

Watch Straps


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

Hi Viper,

thanks again! What I meant to say regarding the earlier issues (sorry I wasn't too clear) is that they don't appear to have any Service arm (Navy, RAF, etc.) indicators on them, whereas the later chronologically do - W10, 0552, etc. Lysanders' picture #1 bears this out, even though I am fairly certain it is a watch that went into (and maybe out of) a Quartermasters Stores somewhere, with a serial number 317/80 - completely different to the "Civvie" example purchased from Silvermans and shown in picture #4.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Junior said:


> Hi Viper,
> 
> thanks again! What I meant to say regarding the earlier issues (sorry I wasn't too clear) is that they don't appear to have any Service arm (Navy, RAF, etc.) indicators on them, whereas the later chronologically do - W10, 0552, etc. Lysanders' picture #1 bears this out, even though I am fairly certain it is a watch that went into (and maybe out of) a Quartermasters Stores somewhere, with a serial number 317/80 - completely different to the "Civvie" example purchased from Silvermans and shown in picture #4.


 But, oddly enough, older mechanical CWCs and Hamiltons do have a service code:


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

If it helps any, the G10/2000 issue (unissued version) sold by Silvermans has a 6B (=RAF) designation as part of the engraved number:


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Just to further confuse things...

The service code (W10, 0555, 0552, or 6B) is not specifically required by DEF STAN 66-4, Parts 1 through 14; it only requires that the government property mark be applied in accordance with DEF STAN 05-34 Issue 1 (superceded by issue 2 in 1983), the Stock Number, serial number and the last two digits of the year of purchase be applied the case back.

DEF STAN 05-34/2 only makes mention of applying the "pheon" (broadarrow), and Figure 1 is a rather detailed drawing of the dimensions and proportions of the pheon.

Therefore, one must assume, that the requirement for the application of the service code is only required by the purchase contract. And, it is possible that the contract for Navigator's watches, NSN 6645-99-541-7362, made in the early eighties did not require a service code.

I believe that the RAF was the only service to require the Navigator's watch, ( which is why Silverman's new G10/2000 with date carries the 6B code.)

And as an aside about NSNs, the first four digits, 6645, is for all timekeeping instruments, to include watches, clocks, stop watches, panel timers, laboratory timers, etc., the second two digits are the NATO country code, (99 for UK, 00 and 01 for the US, 21 for Canada, etc) the last seven digits are the item identification number, unique to each stock item.


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## AndyFromHonolulu (Feb 13, 2006)

*Correct...*

Aloha,

Service code is not required, though most of the CWC's do have them. For example, take a look a the caseback for this Pulsar G10 watch, issued to a friend of mine last year. You'll note that only the NSN, contract year and watch no. are on the caseback. By the way, interestingly enough, this Pulsar, one of the last to be acquired, had an ACRYLIC crystal, while a 1999 contract Pulsar I also have has a mineral cystal.










And here is my Royal Navy, RAF, and Army collection of G10's:










Mahalo,

andy



lysanderxiii said:


> Just to further confuse things...
> 
> The service code (W10, 0555, 0552, or 6B) is not specifically required by DEF STAN 66-4, Parts 1 through 14; it only requires that the government property mark be applied in accordance with DEF STAN 05-34 Issue 1 (superceded by issue 2 in 1983), the Stock Number, serial number and the last two digits of the year of purchase be applied the case back.
> 
> ...


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

OK - so, if the NSN 6645-99 5415317 relates to a British watch, what would an NSN of 6344-86 4312711 relate to? I've searched everywhere I can think of for references to NSN's, and (apart from paying lots of money to access some sites), I can't seem to find any sources of information. Please help a poor, newly addicted, CWC watch zombie with a wife and kids to support! :-D :-D


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Junior said:


> OK - so, if the NSN 6645-99 5415317 relates to a British watch, what would an NSN of 6344-86 4312711 relate to? I've searched everywhere I can think of for references to NSN's, and (apart from paying lots of money to access some sites), I can't seem to find any sources of information. Please help a poor, newly addicted, CWC watch zombie with a wife and kids to support! :-D :-D


The Stock Classification Code (the first four didgits) is not even a time keeping instrument. In fact "6344" is not even a valid stock Classification code, the closest are 6340 Aircraft allarms, and 6350 Misc. alarms.

All timekeeping instruments (watches, clocks, egg timers, etc) will have 6645 as the first four digits.

It's a bogus NSN. (try searching for FSN, Federal Stock Number, the US system the NATO system is based on, and these days, the same system.)


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## Junior (Feb 8, 2006)

lysanderxiii said:


> The Stock Classification Code (the first four didgits) is not even a time keeping instrument. In fact "6344" is not even a valid stock Classification code, the closest are 6340 Aircraft allarms, and 6350 Misc. alarms.
> 
> All timekeeping instruments (watches, clocks, egg timers, etc) will have 6645 as the first four digits.
> 
> It's a bogus NSN. (try searching for FSN, Federal Stock Number, the US system the NATO system is based on, and these days, the same system.)


Thanks again Lysander - I owe you one! I thought it looked a bit odd. :thanks


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## macca323 (Nov 13, 2010)

Greetings forum.
This is a very interesting thread and my first post.
Can some one shed some light on my 3 cwc watch markings please.
kind regards macca


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## macca323 (Nov 13, 2010)

Ok guys i shall kick off and try and answer juniors question hawever i might be wrong so please chime in and correct me if im wrong.
Would it be fair to say that a issue G10(W10)s will have a issue number and a date under the NSN as to lets say the same watch bought from silvermans with just a NSN....... number which is comercial.?
regards macca


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## macca323 (Nov 13, 2010)

Issued to a stores or issued to an actual soldier.
This one was issued as you can see with the original stores packaging.The numbers mirror the actual watch.Note the serial number on watch and packaging.
Not what you would get from silvermans.


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## ecalzo (Oct 18, 2006)

Crusader said:


> My understanding is that the watches receive the issue numbers when they go into military stores, not when they leave them to be issued to soldiers.
> 
> So "issued" does not equal "worn".
> 
> Just my two _bezants'_ worth, of course.


i agree with this...


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## Andy the Squirrel (Sep 13, 2009)

macca323 said:


> Issued to a stores or issued to an actual soldier.
> This one was issued as you can see with the original stores packaging.The numbers mirror the actual watch.Note the serial number on watch and packaging.
> Not what you would get from silvermans.


The ones made as part of an order for the Ministry of Defence have a serial number and date with no C prefix just like that. Nice to see what the stores packaging looks like.


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## macca323 (Nov 13, 2010)

Junior said:


> OK - so, if the NSN 6645-99 5415317 relates to a British watch, what would an NSN of 6344-86 4312711 relate to? I've searched everywhere I can think of for references to NSN's, and (apart from paying lots of money to access some sites), I can't seem to find any sources of information. Please help a poor, newly addicted, CWC watch zombie with a wife and kids to support! :-D :-D


NATO/Country Code


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## Drop of a Hat (Dec 16, 2011)

macca323 said:


> NATO/Country Code


.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## hg1978 (Jul 31, 2011)

I have recently bought an SBS diver at Silvermans with issue # & date! I was also wondering but happy... And yes, the Nite MX 10 was issued to SAS members but not in an regulary longtime purchase contract.


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