# ADs not happy about Balls's direct to consumer business model



## larkja

Dropped by my AD yesterday to check out some Balls, and they were gone. Huh??? He said he dropped the brand because their new direct to consumer business model was undercutting their business. He said many other ADs have done the same, and more will do so in the future. He also said Ball USA is not happy about the new direction, but is unable to do anything since it is being pushed by the parent company in Switzerland.

Wondering how this will play out for the brand. Love my NECC, but not sure about all of these Limited Editions, and new models and how it will dilute the value of the existing/older watches.

Thoughts?


----------



## Alysandir

I know mine isn't terribly happy about it, nor should they be. 

But at the same time, isn't this what consumers have been begging for, for ages: a direct-to-customer option instead of having to rely on what your AD decided to stock, assuming you even have access to an AD?

Regards,
Alysandir


----------



## gossler

My thoughts exactly! I have no AD anywhere around my city. And I sure do appreciate their direct prices


----------



## clarken

Somehow after buying four ball watches I feel like an idiot, I still like to buy items from a brick & mortar store.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gossler

clarken said:


> Somehow after buying four ball watches I feel like an idiot, I still like to buy items from a brick & mortar store.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can appreciate trying out the watch before buying it. It is kind of risky to buy a watch with out seeing it in the flesh.


----------



## larkja

gossler said:


> I can appreciate trying out the watch before buying it. It is kind of risky to buy a watch with out seeing it in the flesh.


I purchased my first NECC from my AD last year. I originally went in for the Hydrocarbon, but after trying it on, felt it was too thick, and the crown guards/lock were too funky for me. Very happy with the NECC. Glad I was able to try these on before the purchase.


----------



## Betterthere

If I were an AD, I would definitely be thinking about it.


----------



## timefleas

Alysandir said:


> ...But at the same time, isn't this what consumers have been begging for, for ages: a direct-to-customer option instead of having to rely on what your AD decided to stock, assuming you even have access to an AD?...


Really? _Who_, exactly, has been _begging _for this? Based on the threads here, the majority of the folks who have bought from Ball online are newcomers to the brand, looking for a good price on a watch they have heard good things about. Noticeably absent (as always, with a few exceptions) are customers who are already familiar with the brand, and who have actively participated here by sharing watch reviews, pictorials and impressions of their Ball watches. Yes, in today's world there is a major segment of the population who prefer price over service, accessibility and immediacy over footwork and effort, ethernet-to-door delivery over walking into a store--but I know I am not one of them--quite the contrary. I think Ball has taken a major step in the wrong direction, and while enjoying the three earlier pieces that I have, I will not be looking to add a fourth if the current trend continues.


----------



## SethThomas

timefleas said:


> *Really? Who, exactly, has been begging for this?* Based on the threads here, the majority of the folks who have bought from Ball online are newcomers to the brand, looking for a good price on a watch they have heard good things about. Noticeably absent (as always, with a few exceptions) are customers who are already familiar with the brand, and who have actively participated here by sharing watch reviews, pictorials and impressions of their Ball watches. Yes, in today's world there is a major segment of the population who prefer price over service, accessibility and immediacy over footwork and effort, ethernet-to-door delivery over walking into a store--but I know I am not one of them--quite the contrary. I think Ball has taken a major step in the wrong direction, and while enjoying the three earlier pieces that I have, I will not be looking to add a fourth if the current trend continues.


Everyone who lives in the middle of nowhere. Nearest brick and mortar to me is ~2 drive. I can appreciate the sentiments; but it is unrealistic to think your customer base all live in cities or have the time to spend majority of the day to go watch shopping (4 hours driving and at least 1 in store) in a small store with limited selection.


----------



## timefleas

SethThomas said:


> Everyone who lives in the middle of nowhere. Nearest brick and mortar to me is ~2 drive. I can appreciate the sentiments; but it is unrealistic to think your customer base all live in cities or have the time to spend majority of the day to go watch shopping (4 hours driving and at least 1 in store) in a small store with limited selection.


Couldn't agree less. No viable AD for me anywhere nearby, and as such I have had to buy online many of the (60+) Ball watches that I have purchased over the years (here, on the bay, and elsewhere)--yet, I maintain good relations with Rob Caplan, our forum sponsor (Topper Jewellers), and go to him for service, for special needs, and for good deals (trades, etc.). Even my online purchases were actually with real people, not just checking a box and clicking the pay button--folks that I communicated with, discussed the watch with, and so forth. The 4 hour drive, or in my case, 10 hour plane trip, is worth it, as there are of course other things to do along the way. It's a matter of perspective--everybody can make time for what truly interests them.

The online purchase programs that Ball has initiated has effectively removed the person-to-person interaction out of the equation--that, I think, is a major change in the negative direction, for watches at least. I can see buying things like CDs, books, bike parts and so forth online, but for me, buying, servicing and collecting watches is still a personal thing--taking people out of the equation is not a good thing, in my view. To each his own.


----------



## SethThomas

timefleas said:


> Couldn't agree less. No viable AD for me anywhere nearby, and as such I have had to buy online many of the (60+) Ball watches that I have purchased over the years (here, on the bay, and elsewhere)--yet, I maintain good relations with Rob Caplan, our forum sponsor (Topper Jewellers), and go to him for service, for special needs, and for good deals (trades, etc.). Even my online purchases were actually with real people, not just checking a box and clicking the pay button--folks that I communicated with, discussed the watch with, and so forth. The 4 hour drive, or in my case, 10 hour plane trip, is worth it, as there are of course other things to do along the way. It's a matter of perspective--everybody can make time for what truly interests them.
> 
> The online purchase programs that Ball has initiated has effectively removed the person-to-person interaction out of the equation--that, I think, is a major change in the negative direction, for watches at least. I can see buying things like CDs, books, bike parts and so forth online, but for me, buying, servicing and collecting watches is still a personal thing--taking people out of the equation is not a good thing, in my view. To each his own.


I see. i think the problem is that we have very different experiences what an AD brick and mortar is...

Here in New England much of the luxury shopping experiences (be it watch or electronics) are not personal at all. The person behind he counter wants to sell you something; they don't care what or why, and their product knowledge is based off the leaflets. Prices are mostly static, and haggling is not really done.


----------



## larkja

Can definitely see both sides. My local AD (and there was only one since I live in a more rural area), is a family owned business. I also had him create my wife's 20 year anniversary ring. Great guy who is more interested in the long-term relationship than the short-term sale. But I also realize there are many retailers that just push a product and don't care about return business.


----------



## surfuz

I have read many good things abt the sponsor of this forum. Unfortunately where I am, there is no AD wanting to build long term relationship or has the product knowledge. Or at least have not met one. 

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk


----------



## surfuz

Just to add on. That's why.. Forum like this is helpful. Fill up the knowledge gaps..which rightfully, should have been filled by the ADs.

Like some of the others, I would prefer brick n mortar too. Willing to pay for good service at reasonable cost. But... If that's not attainable, direct preorders from Ball is the best option. And you know you are getting new stock.. The tritium tubes are at the newest. 

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk


----------



## AlaskaJohnboy

Interesting thread.
Living in Alaska there are some AD's in local jewelry stores, and Fred Meyer. 
They are Rolex AD's at the jewelry shops, and Fred's carries Tissot and Rolex, but the knowledge isn't there. Basically if I want something else, it's a loooooooong plane ride to Seattle, so I am stuck with WUS or Flea-Bay.

I think ADDING online sales to an AD network will only help Swiss brands go forward, as long as they don't undercut their AD's. (think Tissot-- their online shop is on par with their Fred Meyer "AD" here.) With the fine watch market stumbling this last decade, something new has to happen.

That being said I am sorry the OP's dealer got out of the Ball-game. 

And in response to a few others- I would rather see a dealer build good long term relationships than cold sell some pieces.

Thanks for letting me share a couple cents worth of opinion.


----------



## Karkarov

People really forget the realities of life. I don't want to discuss my job, but it requires me to do a lot of work with people in the midwest USA. There are huge swathes of that part of the country where a 10mbps internet is considered "fast". America is a big country, that has large changes in community, quality of life, and just everything from place to place. I imagine if I ever got out to California it may as well be a different country from the rural town I live in on the east coast. 

So yes, the vast majority of people out there have no reasonable access to an AD. Much less one that sells Ball specifically. I know a great one that sells Rolex, Omega, Tudor, Brietling, etc.... not Ball though. They are also 4.5 hour drive away. I am not driving 4.5 hours to "try a watch on before I buy". I doubt I am in the minority on that opinion.

AD's should dislike this new model of business from Ball, I know I would if I were an AD. I honestly would not be shocked to log onto this site tomorrow and see that Topper has stopped paying for this sponsored section. But all that said, you can't argue that Ball's new business model is not more favorable for the actual customer. Reduced prices, chance to get every new release before it sees retail, free engraving, chance to pick your serial number, all options are available nothing got sold out or is AD specific, no middle man, etc etc. You can't deny that an approach like that will be effective, because it definitely will be, and is as evidenced by their continued use of it.


----------



## timefleas

Karkarov said:


> ...But all that said, you can't argue that Ball's new business model is not more favorable for the actual customer. Reduced prices, chance to get every new release before it sees retail, free engraving, chance to pick your serial number, all options are available nothing got sold out or is AD specific, no middle man, etc etc. You can't deny that an approach like that will be effective, because it definitely will be, and is as evidenced by their continued use of it.


You have selectively focused only on what you consider the positive aspects of online shopping. Yes, many people like the Amazon-approach, at the expense of real shops--it is a proven success. Ball's "continued use" of online marketing suggests that this has been going on for a long time--it hasn't. I am referring to the marketing change that essentially started with the introduction of "Genesis", less than two years ago, where in fact not all buyers are all that happy with their purchases of this and the other pre-orders that followed. Generally the cheaper prices are in the ball park of "you get what you pay for"--none have increased in value to match their suggested retail, and several have significantly lost value. In particular, those with personalized engravings are very difficult to sell in the aftermarket, as witness a few that were offered here on WUS. Many have written here about problems upon receipt, or shortly thereafter, where the only recourse is to send the watch off for several months, sometimes with the watch returned with still other problems.

I would rather see a better balance, where you could buy Ball's overstock at discount prices from their online shop, and where you could buy their regular stock at regular prices (for those folks who have no local access to an AD), but not where you can buy odd new editions at low prices which undercut the actual shops out there still plying their Ball watches. My point is that they (Ball) are specifically and directly undermining the merchants that built their company, rather than trying to find a middle ground where both can operate successfully. The company, their watches, and their marketing, is evolving, fitting perhaps with the times, but they are not doing so gracefully, nor with dignity, where in fact I think it is possible to do so, even in this day and age of the anonymous world of internet commerce.


----------



## surfuz

At this point of time, ADs where I am are still strongly supporting Ball.. Can see the EHC AeroGMT II posters prominently displayed.

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk


----------



## gossler

Some time ago, I was interested on a Ball watch, I have no ADs near me, so I gave Topper a call, they where extremely helpful and offer to ship the watch to me. I guess they should allow ADs to operate on the web too.


----------



## Betterthere

Toppers is my virtual AD. I called back when to see could order this one through them but no. I did go ahead and preorder but unlikely to do another.


----------



## Karkarov

timefleas said:


> My point is that they (Ball) are specifically and directly undermining the merchants that built their company, rather than trying to find a middle ground where both can operate successfully.


I mostly agree with your post, and admit the Ball support structure without the AD leaves a lot to be desired. I should know, I have a watch they have been "repairing" for 3 months now. That said, there is a misconception.

Ball does not owe AD's anything. AD's are their own business, and they carried Ball products (at least I hope so) because they were profitable. So the AD's were profiting from Ball, just like Ball profited from the AD. It is an equivalent exchange, no one owes anyone anything.

New businesses, changing times, new technology, you either adapt, or you fold. That's the reality of business. If it is profitable for Ball to work with AD's they should do it, but that doesn't mean they should not pursue a different line of sales if it is also profitable.


----------



## preciousvapor

I dare say I learned my lesson. After two impulsive purchases (one for an Engineer King III through pre-order, the other for a Stormchaser Pro through the auction) I've come to appreciate the value of an in person experience and/or professional guidance. Both are great watches by the way. However, they are too large on my wrist to become viable additions to my rotation. My other watches (including an Engineer Master Diver II purchased through Topper) bought through AD's have proven to be watches I enjoy wearing on a regular basis.


----------



## Alan From New York

The biggest advantages to brick and mortar are a bargaining price policy and the chance to play with the watches. With an online purchase, you'll probably get a better price. Negatively, watch companies tend to honor warranties only from an AD.

It's worth mentioning that Ball's online sales are only for new models and have a smallish availability window so it's not really a regular point of sale.


----------



## lvt

FedEx is the real winner, as usual.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


----------



## samanator

The one big thing that is the 900lbs gorilla in the room that everyone has missed is resale. If you own a Ball watch prior to this, or have bought one since in retail, Ball Switzerland has now cut your resale value to about 30-40% of MSRP. When all the price is king people try to sell their preowned watches it should be interesting since these are the new retail base so expect -35-40% off of those. I've refused to buy any new or used Ball watches in protest of this practice. Until the company decides on what is their sales model, and price is, it is far too confusing to figure a value for a watch from them from any source.

Note when Omega did the Speedy Tuesday Limited Edition it sold for full retail and sold out in hours. That tells me what the price really is. Now with Ball using the Engineer III Carbolight as an example here is what their site says:

Engineer III CarboLIGHT: pre-order at CHF 1,200* / USD $1,299* (retail: CHF 2,150 / USD $2,199) 
​Seems to me if you can buy it at $1299 from the manufacturer that is the retail price unless Ball is adopting Invicata's ShopNBC pricing methodology. The real retail prices is what you sell it for. It's even worse on some long time Ball Online Auction models which are in some cases going for 40% of retail. Preowned then are depreciated from this value. So if you bought two years ago or more at some normal percentage off of retail Ball Switzerland is giving you a single finger hand gesture for being a customer. Now if this was done on a one to one bases (you can buy one discounted watch for every registered retail Ball watch you have) then it would not be so damaging. You can't have two pricing models to the public for one product.

I wanted to buy the new EHC DEVGRU, but I won't because if I can't figure out whats going on with the company so I'm not comfortable paying more than a shipping and handling fee for a watch from them. Besides the new pricing really makes me question what corners are now being cut to get these prices?

Add that this is not really any new news since we started discussing this when the model was launched with the Genesis and talked about the impact of the AD?


----------



## pro2zon

I bought a Cannon Ball Express at a dealer and loved getting to see it first. I signed up for one of the direct to customer special editions and after a lot of back and forth gave up and canceled. I might try again but really missing getting to see the watch in person first.


----------



## preciousvapor

I'm afraid Ball is going to lose it's cachet and value as a desirable time piece. I first became aware of Ball watches through a small add in the Wall Street Journal 10 years ago. A little research led me to this forum. Somehow the large splashy adds for Omega and other brands fail to catch my attention.


----------



## JoeC

preciousvapor said:


> I'm afraid Ball is going to lose it's cachet and value as a desirable time piece. I first became aware of Ball watches through a small add in the Wall Street Journal 10 years ago. A little research led me to this forum. Somehow the large splashy adds for Omega and other brands fail to catch my attention.


They certainly seem to be moving more toward an internet-only based company.


----------



## Heljestrand

samanator said:


> ........the *900lbs gorilla* in the room that everyone has missed is resale........​​


​

Come March, April, May of 2018 after 6 to 8 "pre-order" scale into the market and are 90% plus delivered to the original "pre-order" buyers, those who decide to "catch and release"should be prepared for a shock indeed when selling to individuals / WIS, etc. WatchRecon is going to look like The Wild West. I am very interested in the Ball Engineer III Endurance 1917 but am I interested in buying someone else's catch and release once worn or unworn remorse sale at a penny over the hefty discount they got from Ball Watch???? That is a whole lot of potential discounted heavy NEW Ball watches being delivered direct to customers. With the exception of *some* Rolex and Patek we all know these timepieces are a depreciating hard asset.

I really wanted to buy a Ball Watch to own and enjoy but I am having second thoughts for sure (for now).


----------



## yankeexpress

.


----------



## Triggers Broom

samanator said:


> The one big thing that is the 900lbs gorilla in the room that everyone has missed is resale. If you own a Ball watch prior to this, or have bought one since in retail, Ball Switzerland has now cut your resale value to about 30-40% of MSRP. When all the price is king people try to sell their preowned watches it should be interesting since these are the new retail base so expect -35-40% off of those. I've refused to buy any new or used Ball watches in protest of this practice. Until the company decides on what is their sales model, and price is, it is far too confusing to figure a value for a watch from them from any source.
> 
> Note when Omega did the Speedy Tuesday Limited Edition it sold for full retail and sold out in hours. That tells me what the price really is. Now with Ball using the Engineer III Carbolight as an example here is what their site says:
> 
> Engineer III CarboLIGHT: pre-order at CHF 1,200* / USD $1,299* (retail: CHF 2,150 / USD $2,199)
> ​Seems to me if you can buy it at $1299 from the manufacturer that is the retail price unless Ball is adopting Invicata's ShopNBC pricing methodology. The real retail prices is what you sell it for. It's even worse on some long time Ball Online Auction models which are in some cases going for 40% of retail. Preowned then are depreciated from this value. So if you bought two years ago or more at some normal percentage off of retail Ball Switzerland is giving you a single finger hand gesture for being a customer. Now if this was done on a one to one bases (you can buy one discounted watch for every registered retail Ball watch you have) then it would not be so damaging. You can't have two pricing models to the public for one product.
> 
> I wanted to buy the new EHC DEVGRU, but I won't because if I can't figure out whats going on with the company so I'm not comfortable paying more than a shipping and handling fee for a watch from them. Besides the new pricing really makes me question what corners are now being cut to get these prices?
> 
> Add that this is not really any new news since we started discussing this when the model was launched with the Genesis and talked about the impact of the AD?


I don't get this post at all. You either like and want the watch or you don't. If you are worried about residual prices, buy a sports Rolex. As for worrying about corners being cut, the only thing that's being cut is the AD's margin, so you end up with a good watch at a better price to you.


----------



## Elkins45

Heljestrand said:


> I really wanted to buy a Ball Watch to own and enjoy but I am having second thoughts for sure (for now).


If you truly were buying it to own and enjoy, then their sales strategy shouldn't matter to you. It should only matter if you're buying them to flip. I really don't understand your perspective.

Buying watches as an investment or profit strategy seems like a bad idea to me. I bought my Ball watches because they glow-in-the-dark. That's a much better reason.


----------



## Heljestrand

Elkins45 said:


> If you truly were buying it to own and enjoy, then their sales strategy shouldn't matter to you. It should only matter if you're buying them to flip.* I really don't understand your perspective.*
> 
> Buying watches as an investment or profit strategy seems like a bad idea to me. I bought my Ball watches because they glow-in-the-dark. That's a much better reason.


My perspective is why should I purchase ANY Ball except for the pre-order watch (many I have seen since March of 2017 have been pretty darn nice and actually IMO as good if not better than what my AD is carrying in stock at close to double the price of the pre-order ones). The Roadmaster GMT is a stunner, The Endurance "Classic" looks to be a winner in my book, the KING is a superb piece,..... so many great ones coming to market via heavily discounted pre-order. My PERSPECTIVE is why on Earth if I wanted a superb Ball Watch that GLOWS as you say and has cool technology as to shock resistance, anti magnetic to the hilt, and attractive almost bespoke options.... WHY would I want to pay any more $$$$ at the AD or the secondary market than the pre-order price or lower? Meanwhile the company is selling old stock at 40% of RRP? If I decide I am going to buy a Ball then is to wait until the typical buyers remorse catch and release guys offload unworn or tried it on and its too big, not big enough etc etc etc. THAT is my perspective. You missed my point completely of you thought I was trying to buy them to flip at a profit (LOL...that is not happening) or as an investment. I'm certain that watches are a depreciating hard asset. Got that! I wanted ONE to enjoy...... still may but it will be one of the ones I mentioned above that will more than likely be found unworn at or less than what the original buyer paid even with the pre-order discount.


----------



## terexac350

So as I understand it, Ball sets the RRP for the dealership, forces the dealer to stock a certain amount of watches and then cuts the legs off the dealer by selling direct to the public at auction or vastly reduced pre-order prices. Has anyone actually purchased a Ball watch at RRP ? A quick check on eBay today is showing a lot of new watches for 50% of RRP and outside the US a brand new Fireman Racer can be purchased for $517 a trainmaster GMT $750 an NECC $1,016 a trainmaster first flight $1,300 and a Spacemaster DM2036A for $1,489 and this trend carries on throughout the range, these prices are at the correct level for Ball watches. The US consumer is getting shafted.

Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## bracky72

I find it hilarious that some are saying they won’t buy any more Ball watches at these amazing prices and will wait until hopefully Ball stops this practice of direct to consumer preorder and doubles the price again at an AD. 

I compare it to buying a new guitar. I can have a custom made Kiesel/Carvin custom made for me with a direct to consumer price and I end up with a stellar guitar made to my specs at a killer price. Or I could go to guitar center and buy a overpriced Gibson that has been fondled by a dozen customers before I ever touch it.

Or in the auto industry. Do you like having to go to the dealer and dicker for a good price on a car or would you prefer to buy direct from the manufacturer skipping the middleman? Tesla is trying to offer the second approach and is only being stopped by regulations. 

I’d hate to be an AD in this marketplace.


----------



## Elkins45

terexac350 said:


> So as I understand it, Ball sets the RRP for the dealership, forces the dealer to stock a certain amount of watches and then cuts the legs off the dealer by selling direct to the public at auction or vastly reduced pre-order prices. Has anyone actually purchased a Ball watch at RRP ? A quick check on eBay today is showing a lot of new watches for 50% of RRP and outside the US a brand new Fireman Racer can be purchased for $517 a trainmaster GMT $750 an NECC $1,016 a trainmaster first flight $1,300 and a Spacemaster DM2036A for $1,489 and this trend carries on throughout the range, these prices are at the correct level for Ball watches. The US consumer is getting shafted.
> 
> Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


If paying near the RRP the US consumer is getting shafted by a number of companies. But I agree with your point that if the parent company is lowballing you as an AD then it's a strange way to keep your retail presence indeed. I do think there is a missing piece of the puzzle, and that is how much an AD is willing to come down off the RRP. If they routinely discount by the same amount then the direct from Ball pricing makes more sense. Also, you do get the advantage of the factory warranty when buying from an AD as opposed to gray market. To some people that might make a difference.

On a semi-related note: where are you finding a Spacemaster DM2036A at that price?

I came back to add that the reason I don't mind this approach is because I was never going to be a customer of Ball at anywhere near retail prices anyway. The two Balls I own were purchased used from an AD and both were less than $1000. I'm just not a player in the >$1000 market. This strategy puts (some) new Ball watches within my reach.


----------



## bracky72

Buying direct from Ball is not gray market.


----------



## Elkins45

bracky72 said:


> Buying direct from Ball is not gray market.


I know. I meant gray market prices vs the MyOffer prices. I guess I just didn't say it very clearly.


----------



## timefleas

bracky72 said:


> I find it hilarious that some are saying they won't buy any more Ball watches at these amazing prices and will wait *until hopefully Ball stops this practice of direct to consumer preorder and doubles the price again at an AD*.
> ...QUOTE]
> 
> I am pretty sure that is NOT what some are saying...which rules out your allusions to the other market place scenarios as well. I think the basic concern is that the online sales has effectively devalued Ball as a brand--former retail prices are no longer viable, nor are the suggested retails of the online "bargains"--rather, Ball seems to have adjusted their valuations downward, so that now ALL watches, whether bought online or in an AD are worth less than they used to be. I think some (consumers and ADs alike) are disappointed by these actions, and justifiably so.


----------



## bracky72

I agree about the diminished value. I paid $2,200 for my skindiver, $1,800 for the EM2 diver, and then $8xx for my Genesis (which I love). I’m pretty sure the value has tanked on those first two but the Genesis I can sell without losing to much. Ball has burned some bridges making the transition to this new model.


----------



## elbilo

larkja said:


> Dropped by my AD yesterday to check out some Balls, and they were gone. Huh??? He said he dropped the brand because their new direct to consumer business model was undercutting their business. He said many other ADs have done the same, and more will do so in the future.


Yup, a local watch store (2 stores, both about 30-40 minutes from me) was an AD. They told me the same thing. They were liquidating the Balls at 40% off to make room for more of the other brands they carry (Oris, Omega, et al.). Of course this occurred as I grew interest in the brand and wanted to see some models, particularly the Marvelight. They only had one model left (Engineer II Pioneer I believe). I'm glad I got to see it because it confirmed my dislike for fully polished cases.


----------



## jcombs1

If a company continues to do the same thing (dealer distribution) with the same results (lagging sales) they are destined to shut the doors. Expecting different results with the same approach is the definition of insanity.

No one knows if this change in marketing will work but it appears that they felt the need to shake up their marketing and sales approach. Only time will tell for sure and they are likely to alienate some part of their customer base, dealers and loyal customers alike.

Times, environments and markets change, successful companies innovate, adapt and survive; others don’t and fail. Do the names Blockbuster Video, Eastman-Kodak or BlackBerry ring a bell?


----------



## samanator

Triggers Broom said:


> I don't get this post at all. You either like and want the watch or you don't. If you are worried about residual prices, buy a sports Rolex. As for worrying about corners being cut, the only thing that's being cut is the AD's margin, so you end up with a good watch at a better price to you.


So you are OK with buying something and don't care that it may have no value later. I find that hard to believe. All prices including preowned are at an all time low. Not what they use to be.

Also more than AD margin are being cut. Look at the little bits here and there not being included like a tube on a second hand on a EHC supposed tactical watch. Other bits and pieces are not quite what they should be. Seems to had a price in mind, and then through some things together and stoped when it ran out of money and cut into profit. Most of the new watches are just redialed old watches, like Ball needed more models. It's not a better price to you if it's not made as well and in many cases they are not.


----------



## Elkins45

I think there's one thing that can be agreed on without too much argument, and that is that buying watches based on their resale value is not the best economic strategy. 

Other than perhaps a Rolex, one should only buy a watch because they like it and not because of how much they could possibly sell it for in the future. You should scale your spending based on how much it appeals to you rather than on how much it costs.


----------



## bracky72

I disagree that they are cutting corners. A lot of the new models have features and tubes never offered before. And at all time low prices. So I can see how some might feel burned and bitter about it. But some of these new models are quite nice.


----------



## surfuz

End of day, the most important question in *this* forum is not whether the ADs are unhappy or not. It is whether the sponsor is unhappy or not.

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk


----------



## Triggers Broom

Perhaps you misunderstood, I do care about residual values, but to my mind buying a Ball watch means that you accept that the pre-owned price will tank no matter what. There is a pecking order to these things and at their rrp price point Ball are on par with Tag Heuer and Longines as watches with large depreciation from the minute you walk out the store. 
Sitting on the level above but still doing poorly are Breitling, next up is Omega and then the Rolex sports range sitting pretty miles above the rest.

My point is that if you are at all worried about losing a chunk of money when it comes to resale time then with respect that Ball watches are not the way forward.


----------



## Moonlighting

jcombs1 said:


> Times, environments and markets change, successful companies innovate, adapt and survive; others don't and fail. Do the names Blockbuster Video, Eastman-Kodak or BlackBerry ring a bell?


This sums up how I feel. Ball sees a changing/evolving market and is doing what it thinks is right to remain successful. How it plays out in the long run is to be determined.


----------



## clarken

I like ball watches I own four but in hindsight I should followed my gut and bought a submariner a few years back. I’m afraid ball is tanking lot a bad stock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Heljestrand

I don't think I care one way or the other anymore. You gents all seem like good fellows and I still may buy a Ball watch because I like one for one reason or many and want to own it.


----------



## xherion

Heljestrand said:


> I don't think I care one way or the other anymore. You gents all seem like good fellows and I still may buy a Ball watch because I like one for one reason or many and want to own it.


My sentiments exactly, we need to see how this plays out, but if i see something i like, then i will buy it without caring too much on their sales approach or how they will do in the future.
Live is too short to worry about such stuff.


----------



## gossler

I think they are doing well with this business model. At first it was only one model on pre order, now theres two at a time. This practice has been going on for over a year now and still they continue.

I buy all my watches because I like them. I never intend to sell them, and I know if I do, that they are worth 1/3 what I paid for them. And I am ok with that. 

All brick stores are struggling with the online sales competition in general. Ball is just adapting to the world trend. And they are doing things differently in different markets.


----------



## Aerofish

I think Ball is adjusting their prices to remain competitive with themselves, and retain brand loyal consumers. Their biggest feature is the use of tritium tubes. While they are gorgeous when fresh they do have a 10 year shelf life before it decays incrementally as time goes on. A lot of the Original Ball watches are in this fading age. Used Balls even if Mint NOS is worth a lot less today because of this. Ball wants these customers to buy again but needs to make it easier for them thus lower prices. IMHO


----------



## samanator

bracky72 said:


> I find it hilarious that some are saying they won't buy any more Ball watches at these amazing prices and will wait until hopefully Ball stops this practice of direct to consumer preorder and doubles the price again at an AD.
> 
> .


That is not even close to what I said. Let's try again. I said I was not buying until things stabilize and a channel and pricing is established. They seem to have multiple, and we have no established resale value since the direct has flushed all the history. I don't buy these boutique/ startup brand watches since they have no stability. Ball is now in the same boat. If they get established in this new model with a clear understanding of support and resale I'll consider them again. This is still operating as a thrown together at a moments notice, with no real plan even a year later.

It's worked for Doxa for years, except for their total flop when the tried the AD model in the US. What failed if you don't remember is they tried to have both. You can only have both if they have the same pricing. Seems to late for that now.

Add that most of these "new"models seem more like a close out sale to use out leftover parts.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bracky72

I buy a watch because I like it. The other bs doesn’t concern me. I’m sorry your Ball collections value has tanked though.


----------



## hchj

I can understand why ADs are not happy with Ball Watch co. and they shouldn’t be happy. The change of direction that Ball decided to take is for survival. As a company, if they can’t keep both their ADs and customers happy at the same time, customers always win. I don’t blame them for that. 
This new approach definitely needs to be fine tuned somehow. Whether it will backfire or not remains to be seen. But I applaud Ball for trying to be different and staying ahead of the game. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## clarken

I believe ball needs to develop their own proprietary movement to stay in this game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JoeC

clarken said:


> I believe ball needs to develop their own proprietary movement to stay in this game.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not sure if in-house movements would be required for this company's survival (or even beneficial for that matter). Sure, it would be great to wow the mechanical watch buying public with proprietary movements, but to make such a move would require significant investment in both time and money. Off the top of my head (which certainly isn't expert by any means), I can't think of any companies that have in-house at the $1k-3k price point (except Grand Seiko). Why even bother with all this? Plenty of companies take ETA or Sellita movements and house them in their own cases and end up doing just fine. Isn't the Ball claim to fame awesome tritium anyway?

If Ball has great success by lowering their pricing on their items by selling direct to consumers, then so be it.


----------



## fish70

Like everything else, if your job can be done over the internet and or in another country with cheaper labor costs, it is going to be. Two of my former "careers" have gone this way. People want the lowest price and don't see any further than that most of the time.


----------



## NoTaWaTcHgUyOkAy

JoeC said:


> I'm not sure if in-house movements would be required for this company's survival (or even beneficial for that matter). Sure, it would be great to wow the mechanical watch buying public with proprietary movements, but to make such a move would require significant investment in both time and money. Off the top of my head (which certainly isn't expert by any means), I can't think of any companies that have in-house at the $1k-3k price point (except Grand Seiko). Why even bother with all this? Plenty of companies take ETA or Sellita movements and house them in their own cases and end up doing just fine. Isn't the Ball claim to fame awesome tritium anyway?
> 
> If Ball has great success by lowering their pricing on their items by selling direct to consumers, then so be it.


Or they could buy an already designed movement that is someone else's IP and buy it from them and call it their own 100% in-house design, like what Tag Heuer did with a Seiko movement. Then cop so much heat for manipulation and cover it up by saying other brands like Tag Heuer did it so why can't we?

But in all honesty, an in-house movement just adds an extra layer of uniqueness and adds to the 'actual' value of a watch. For example, if I knew a watch had an ETA-2824-2 movement in it, the maximum I'd pay for that watch is maybe 2x the cost of that movement. But you can't evaluate how much an in-house movement costs if it isn't being openly sold to the public, therefore, the movement alone justifies the cost. There are a few companies that have in-house movments at a $1k-$3k price point like Frederique Constant and Nomos.




fish70 said:


> Like everything else, if your job can be done over the internet and or in another country with cheaper labor costs, it is going to be. Two of my former "careers" have gone this way. People want the lowest price and don't see any further than that most of the time.


Their business model can follow suit like Apple or Razer, because both these companies sell their products through stores as well as their own website. Ball should price their watches at MSRP and not undercut their ADs that's the real issue. Their bidding model is undercutting ADs like hell. MSRP always accounts for discounts, profit and stuff like that, but the fact they have their watches for sale way below MSRP via bidding is total trash and I totally agree with the ADs decision.


----------



## JoeC

NoTaWaTcHgUyOkAy said:


> ...There are a few companies that have in-house movments at a $1k-$3k price point like Frederique Constant and Nomos.


Nomos, how could I forget. I can't really get excited about bauhaus in general, but their Club and Zurich series have nice designs.

Yes, in house can be done at that price point. But by Ball?


----------



## NoTaWaTcHgUyOkAy

JoeC said:


> Nomos, how could I forget. I can't really get excited about bauhaus in general, but their Club and Zurich series have nice designs.
> 
> Yes, in house can be done at that price point. But by Ball?


At its current state, probably not. It seems as if they're selling off inventory and trying to get themselves out of a rut as they are an independent. But later on I definately think so, I honestly like the temperature gauge they got patented and would love to see it on an in-house movement. As for Nomos, not a fan of Bauhaus but I definitely see the appeal.


----------



## samanator

There is a Ball in-house movement, see the Manufacture model, but truly very limited so far, and the specs are a bit disappointing. Add that I do not know if one has shipped yet. 

Nomos is a great example of a brand that is running a direct and AD sales model the right way. Both sides have the same reasonable pricing.


----------



## Heljestrand

samanator said:


> There is a Ball in-house movement, see the Manufacture model, but truly very limited so far, and the specs are a bit disappointing. Add that I do not know if one has shipped yet.
> 
> *Nomos is a great example of a brand that is running a direct and AD sales model the right way. Both sides have the same reasonable pricing*.


Perhaps Damasko as well. (but I did notice that Damasko gave one AD an exclusive on their new diver,at least at the initial roll-out.) In turn I noticed one (former?) AD selling maybe their remaining Damasko stock on eBay at fairly attractive discount to RRP and no longer showing themselves as offering Damasko. Hurt feelings? Business decision?


----------



## Alansmithee

timefleas said:


> *Really? Who, exactly, has been begging for this? * Based on the threads here, the majority of the folks who have bought from Ball online are newcomers to the brand, looking for a good price on a watch they have heard good things about. Noticeably absent (as always, with a few exceptions) are customers who are already familiar with the brand, and who have actively participated here by sharing watch reviews, pictorials and impressions of their Ball watches. Yes, in today's world there is a major segment of the population who prefer price over service, accessibility and immediacy over *footwork and effort, ethernet-to-door delivery over walking into a store*--but I know I am not one of them--quite the contrary. I think Ball has taken a major step in the wrong direction, and while enjoying the three earlier pieces that I have, I will not be looking to add a fourth if the current trend continues.


Depending on your market, there is no store to walk into or at least its many hours way - I don't think I've ever seen a Ball in a UK AD - I'm sure if I googled, I could maybe find someone but it would likely be a hassle to get to them.


----------



## TAG Fan

Alansmithee said:


> Depending on your market, there is no store to walk into or at least its many hours way - I don't think I've ever seen a Ball in a UK AD - I'm sure if I googled, I could maybe find someone but it would likely be a hassle to get to them.


Jura Watches are official Ball AD in the UK. In fact I am looking to purchase a couple of Ball watches from them in the not so distant future

https://www.jurawatches.co.uk/colle...ch-company-fireman-necc-dm3090a-sj-bk-bl-1526


----------



## terexac350

TAG Fan said:


> Jura Watches are official Ball AD in the UK. In fact I am looking to purchase a couple of Ball watches from them in the not so distant future
> 
> https://www.jurawatches.co.uk/colle...ch-company-fireman-necc-dm3090a-sj-bk-bl-1526


You must be crazy to be thinking of paying that price for the watch you linked to or any other Ball they sell. A bit of searching could save hundreds of pounds on that identical model and every other.

Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## TAG Fan

Alansmithee said:


> Depending on your market, there is no store to walk into or at least its many hours way - I don't think I've ever seen a Ball in a UK AD - I'm sure if I googled, I could maybe find someone but it would likely be a hassle to get to them.





terexac350 said:


> You must be crazy to be thinking of paying that price for the watch you linked to or any other Ball they sell. A bit of searching could save hundreds of pounds on that identical model and every other.
> 
> Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


I am not going to be paying those prices!


----------



## Alansmithee

TAG Fan said:


> Jura Watches are official Ball AD in the UK. In fact I am looking to purchase a couple of Ball watches from them in the not so distant future
> 
> https://www.jurawatches.co.uk/colle...ch-company-fireman-necc-dm3090a-sj-bk-bl-1526


Nearest store to me is a two hour drive (well if I had a car - so nearer three hours each way) and who know if or what stock they have and the bigger problem is... I'd never pay retail for a Ball - that's what the company had taught me to do..

(Which proves the main point of the thread...)


----------



## fastfras

Alansmithee said:


> Nearest store to me is a two hour drive (well if I had a car - so nearer three hours each way) and who know if or what stock they have and the bigger problem is... I'd never pay retail for a Ball - that's what the company had taught me to do..
> 
> (Which proves the main point of the thread...)


Two hour drive, or, about the length of a bad film... Mr. Smithee!


----------



## Alansmithee

fastfras said:


> Two hour drive, or, about the length of a bad film... Mr. Smithee!


Nice catch!


----------



## TAG Fan

Alansmithee said:


> Depending on your market, there is no store to walk into or at least its many hours way - I don't think I've ever seen a Ball in a UK AD - I'm sure if I googled, I could maybe find someone but it would likely be a hassle to get to them.





Alansmithee said:


> Nearest store to me is a two hour drive (well if I had a car - so nearer three hours each way) and who know if or what stock they have and the bigger problem is... I'd never pay retail for a Ball - that's what the company had taught me to do..
> 
> (Which proves the main point of the thread...)


I'm actually a fan of the Ball sales model. I was just pointing out the official AD in the UK


----------



## terexac350

http://www.gemnation.com/watches/Ba...Captain-Poindexter-DM2036A-S5CA-BE-41633.html

New Spacemaster for $1,495 on bracelet with extra rubber strap and Pelican type case.

Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## KiwiWomble

I've been keen on Ball Watches for a while, just something different about them, my biggest problem is their AD network was so small on this side of the world, in fact there wasn't any AD's in New Zealand. Even now i'm in Aussie and there are two AD's within walking distance of my office but neither have huge ranges.

So...my options if i'm going to buy a specific model is almost always to try and get it online....and if i'm getting it online and taking a gamble on size etc then i'm going to expect a discount over RRP.

I'm also not overly worried about resale, if i buy a watch i'm going to keep it

in saying all that...as happy i am personally to have the opportunity to pick up these pieces directly at a discounted rate (still hoping for a new diver to come on preorder) i do feel for the AD's, in a perfect world i would walk into an AD and try on a few pieces and walk out with the one and the start of a relationship


----------



## Heljestrand

JUST left my local AD. I didn't try on a single Ball watch. I did try on a Grand Seiko Snowflake, a Ulysse Nardin Maxi Marine, and a limited edition Breitling Aerospace. The gents at the AD were discouraged with the numerous pre-order offerings from Ball saying it has become near to impossible to sell a Ball watch even with the most generous discount they are allowed. They were unaware of the "My Offer" garage sale. I asked if they would ever drop Ball and the response was, "It's possible."


----------



## Pete26

timefleas said:


> Really? _Who_, exactly, has been _begging _for this? Based on the threads here, the majority of the folks who have bought from Ball online are newcomers to the brand, looking for a good price on a watch they have heard good things about. Noticeably absent (as always, with a few exceptions) are customers who are already familiar with the brand, and who have actively participated here by sharing watch reviews, pictorials and impressions of their Ball watches. Yes, in today's world there is a major segment of the population who prefer price over service, accessibility and immediacy over footwork and effort, ethernet-to-door delivery over walking into a store--but I know I am not one of them--quite the contrary. I think Ball has taken a major step in the wrong direction, and while enjoying the three earlier pieces that I have, I will not be looking to add a fourth if the current trend continues.


Just about everybody. When I joined the watch forums in 1997, Richard Paige lamented the lack of an on-line marketplace for Swiss watches. IWC and JLC are now exploring those options. Nearly every watch collector I know wants to be able to purchase their watch on-line or direct from distributor.


----------



## timefleas

Pete26 said:


> Just about everybody. When I joined the watch forums in 1997, Richard Paige lamented the lack of an on-line marketplace for Swiss watches. IWC and JLC are now exploring those options. Nearly every watch collector I know wants to be able to purchase their watch on-line or direct from distributor.


Your response "nearly every watch collector" suggests a number inconsistent with the posters here who have posted negatively regarding buying online, so I can only guess that the qualifier in your statement is "I know"--suggesting that perhaps you don't know all that many collectors, and thus, your observations don't represent the norm--to take the point a step further--I know quite a few collectors, and NONE of the ones I know favour the online approach as opposed to dealing directly with qualified dealers, with regard to buying BALL watches...


----------



## Pete26

Didn't realize that you were talking about Ball watches only. I was talking about a lot of brands and you will find that most collectors buy on line, which is why a lot of manufacturers are selling direct to customer or did you not realize that there is a world wide downturn in watch purchasing. Your tone is incredibly rude BTW. I won't be buying a Ball watch again thanks to your arrogant attitude. 

Sent from my SM-J120ZN using Tapatalk


----------



## timefleas

Pete26 said:


> Didn't realize that you were talking about Ball watches only. I was talking about a lot of brands and you will find that most collectors buy on line, which is why a lot of manufacturers are selling direct to customer or did you not realize that there is a world wide downturn in watch purchasing. Your tone is incredibly rude BTW. I won't be buying a Ball watch again thanks to your arrogant attitude.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J120ZN using Tapatalk


My tone and attitude was completely neutral--I simply questioned the logic of your statements, which appeared not to have been informed by a complete reading of the thread in which you offered comments, which you confirmed in your response ("didn't realize about Ball watches only"--what part of the thread title was confusing?)--just dealing with facts, as usual. You might also check another current thread, in the public forum, asking how many real watch collecting friends members had--nearly 80% (of the 100 replies) answered "2 or less", with more than half of the total answering "zero"--that too, made me question the range of your observations ("everybody", "all the watch collectors I know")--suggesting that you painted with a very broad brush--too bad it rubbed you the wrong way--surely Ball is lamenting their loss.


----------



## 92gli

They don't need an in-house movement any more than Hamilton does, which is not at all. Ball is Hamilton with better lume. They need to drop about 50% of their lineup, reduce prices 30% on whats left, and start hiring some people that know how to design pieces rather than playing mix and match with their parts bins. 
And it's time to give up on the ridiculous hydrocarbon case. It's a horrible design that is only different for the sake of being different.


----------



## Heljestrand

Good observations in your post Sir.


----------



## Alansmithee

timefleas said:


> Your response "nearly every watch collector" suggests a number inconsistent with the posters here who have posted negatively regarding buying online, so I can only guess that the qualifier in your statement is "I know"--suggesting that perhaps you don't know all that many collectors, and thus, your observations don't represent the norm--to take the point a step further-*-I know quite a few collectors,* and NONE of the ones I know favour the online approach as opposed to dealing directly with qualified dealers, with regard to buying BALL watches...


Maybe I know more watch collectors than you and thus my views are more valid?

*It's a pointless line of debate.*

Dealing with the facts we do know - Ball is continuing to do pre-orders and carrying on with bargain warehouse - watch collectors might be sniffy about it but clearly Ball's accountants aren't. The wide market fact is that regardless of what watch collectors claim on forums, the number of companies doing this is increasing not decreasing and fighting against it is like trying to bring down a cloud by throwing your shoes at it.


----------



## OSUMBA2003

92gli said:


> They don't need an in-house movement any more than Hamilton does, which is not at all. Ball is Hamilton with better lume. They need to drop about 50% of their lineup, reduce prices 30% on whats left, and start hiring some people that know how to design pieces rather than playing mix and match with their parts bins.
> And it's time to give up on the ridiculous hydrocarbon case. It's a horrible design that is only different for the sake of being different.


Having owned several from each brand, I wholeheartedly disagree. The build quality and finishing of Ball watches is superior to that of Hamilton. I also contend that Ball does innovate. Hamilton? Not so much.


----------



## terexac350

OSUMBA2003 said:


> Having owned several from each brand, I wholeheartedly disagree. The build quality and finishing of Ball watches is superior to that of Hamilton. I also contend that Ball does innovate. Hamilton? Not so much.


Build quality may be better but Balls innovation boils down to finding solutions for problems that don't exist, patented crown guard, spring lock and amortisizer for example.

Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pete26

timefleas said:


> My tone and attitude was completely neutral--I simply questioned the logic of your statements, which appeared not to have been informed by a complete reading of the thread in which you offered comments, which you confirmed in your response ("didn't realize about Ball watches only"--what part of the thread title was confusing?)--just dealing with facts, as usual. You might also check another current thread, in the public forum, asking how many real watch collecting friends members had--nearly 80% (of the 100 replies) answered "2 or less", with more than half of the total answering "zero"--that too, made me question the range of your observations ("everybody", "all the watch collectors I know")--suggesting that you painted with a very broad brush--too bad it rubbed you the wrong way--surely Ball is lamenting their loss.


All I can say is that I am a member of several forums and am a member of the Australian Watch Forum and have met a lot of collectors personally. Richard Paige lamented the fact that Swiss watch brands were reluctant to sell on line. My point is that scenario is changing rapidly. You seem to want to question how many collectors I know, which is incredibly presumptuous of you. I came to this forum to research the brand, not to be insulted. My observations are based on the fact that the watch landscape is changing. Don't worry you won't hear from me again.

Sent from my SM-J120ZN using Tapatalk


----------



## raheelc

Just to add my two cents here...I'm currently in Minneapolis for work, and I decided to stop by a Ball AD after work and take a look at the Engineer Master II Worldtime (I had the previous version and sold it, wanted another ever since). The AD happened to have one in stock, and I was able to fairly easily get them to knock the price down quite significantly (almost 40% off MSRP). All it really took for was me to mention how Ball has changed their strategy and are selling direct to consumers now, and I asked if they plan to keep Ball in their store. Then proceeded to ask what the best price they could do on the watch would be, to which they knocked the price down quite heavily. I even saved on tax since I'm having them ship the watch to me out of state.


----------



## Betterthere

raheelc said:


> Just to add my two cents here...I'm currently in Minneapolis for work, and I decided to stop by a Ball AD after work and take a look at the Engineer Master II Worldtime (I had the previous version and sold it, wanted another ever since). The AD happened to have one in stock, and I was able to fairly easily get them to knock the price down quite significantly (almost 40% off MSRP). All it really took for was me to mention how Ball has changed their strategy and are selling direct to consumers now, and I asked if they plan to keep Ball in their store. Then proceeded to ask what the best price they could do on the watch would be, to which they knocked the price down quite heavily. I even saved on tax since I'm having them ship the watch to me out of state.


Good for you and for them (1 less to get rid of when they drop Ball).


----------



## samanator

Alansmithee said:


> the number of companies doing this is increasing not decreasing


This part in your statement is true(And there are several statements from manufactures to back them up), with the rest being mostly guess, and do not align with what the Ball insiders are telling me.


----------



## gossler

samanator said:


> This part in your statement is true(And there are several statements from manufactures to back them up), with the rest being mostly guess, and do not align with what the Ball insiders are telling me.


What are the Ball insiders telling you? Im eager to know! how long are they going to keep going the My Offer program? Are more pre order sales coming? What are their sales strategies?


----------



## Alansmithee

samanator said:


> This part in your statement is true(And there are several statements from manufactures to back them up), with the rest being mostly guess, and do not align with what the Ball insiders are telling me.


So Ball insiders tell you the strategy isn't working which is why they are continuing to do it. That makes perfect sense.

If they stop doing it then I'll accept your view.

I'll take anyone for a friendly $50 for charity that they are still doing the pre-ordered and bargain warehouse in twelve months (Nov 2018) - anyone feel free to capture this post and if they have stopped doing it - the first person to contact me gets a crisp $50 for the charity of their choice.


----------



## lovedeep

I would prefer a direct to consumer model...why anyone wouldn't?


----------



## surfuz

Based on repeated production delays, I would say that the production cannot keep up with the sales. Business must be good. 

The only thing I would lament is that the current models look too generic. 

Sent from my G8142 using Tapatalk


----------



## timefleas

lovedeep said:


> I would prefer a direct to consumer model...why anyone wouldn't?


Are you serious?! The point of the direct manufacturer-to-customer is that while it will of course save some money on the front end, the customer isn't really in direct contact with anyone--just a faceless entity that produces formulaic responses to even the most unique situations (as evidenced already here by some of the glitches encountered with Ball's opine marketing approach)--kind of like having only one place to contact if your phone doesn't work--get in line, push the right buttons, wait a long time, and maybe, or maybe not, get your issues addressed. Don't get me wrong--I like cheap--but I also like people, and movement, and interaction, so would prefer dealing with an actual person, rather than a nameless entity for which there will often be no recompense. If Ball wants online marketing, and that is fine if they do, then they need to go the whole way--offer all straps, buckles, bracelets AND replacement parts online through their "store"--by not doing so, they are forcing us to use ADs who may not be all that happy just to service watches that they made little or no profit from.


----------



## BostonWatcher

terexac350 said:


> Ball Engineer Spacemaster Captain Poindexter Men's Watch Model: DM2036A-S5CA-BE
> 
> New Spacemaster for $1,495 on bracelet with extra rubber strap and Pelican type case.
> 
> Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


This is the problem. Ball has not been able to police and enforce their brand value or AD overstock well enough that provides the gray market, hurting the AD and forcing them to offer heftier discounts to compete. It happens with many brands. Gray market kills brands, just look at what happened to Jean Richard, Eterna and many others.

When profit margins dwindle, AD's stop selling the brand, hence the shift to the direct model for Ball.

Since they did such a horrible job retaining value for the brand, they really have no other option. In the US, you can enforce URP (unilateral retail pricing) by not providing stock to said AD's that sell overstock. All you have to do is buy one, check the serial number against sales and cease providing the AD.

Basically, Ball's business acumen is horrible.


----------



## BostonWatcher

92gli said:


> They don't need an in-house movement any more than Hamilton does, which is not at all. Ball is Hamilton with better lume. They need to drop about 50% of their lineup, reduce prices 30% on whats left, and start hiring some people that know how to design pieces rather than playing mix and match with their parts bins.
> And it's time to give up on the ridiculous hydrocarbon case. It's a horrible design that is only different for the sake of being different.


You had me agreeing up until your Hydrocarbon comment. It is perhaps one of the only things that kept this brand in the game, and is, in some peoples opinion, a great design aesthetically and for durability. One could say that any design is different for the sake of being different if they don't like it...right?


----------



## Heljestrand

I would wait to hear from Mr. Jeff Hess himself but while visiting his store in Tampa which has been described by his employees in the past as a "Flagship" Authorized Dealer for Ball, I was told upon inquiring to Mr. Hess's reaction to the direct market approach by Ball and the answer to the question was that he was, "not happy." This is the same employee that told me that dropping Ball was "possible." This same employee was gobsmacked when I told him of the "My Offer" yardsale where bidders were obtaining Ball excess or discontinued inventory for less than 50% of RRP. Perhaps this employee was merely venting because he was frustrated by having a fairly prominent Ball Watch Co. Display at the store entrance and not able to sell to practically anyone with an internet access and the least bit of information on the direction of the brand. This employee as I detailed in an earlier post was very professional and showed me Grand Seiko, Breitling, and Ulysse Nardin where he felt I might have some legitimate interest. There was no way he could come close to matching a Ball pre-order or "My Offer" price. 
I do respect that Rob Caplan sponsors this area of WUS and I do not want to be out of line by describing explicitly how my visit to another very prominent AD of Ball Watch Co. transpired. In my earlier post in this thread concerning my visit I didn't mention the employee's divulging that Mr. Hess was not happy because it isn't fair to repeat hearsay perhaps. If Mr. Hess becomes aware of this thread I will say that his employee treated both myself and others in the location in a very professional manner and was a quality consultative salesman.


----------



## Alansmithee

timefleas said:


> Are you serious?! The point of the direct manufacturer-to-customer is that while it will of course save some money on the front end, the customer isn't really in direct contact with anyone


But if you are paying 30% of retail - who cares? I certainly don't - the lower service level is fine as long as the price is right.


----------



## Elkins45

Alansmithee said:


> But if you are paying 30% of retail - who cares? I certainly don't - the lower service level is fine as long as the price is right.


Well, to a large degree it depends on how "retail" of Ball equates to quality and features of another brand of similar retail. If your are spending $500 to buy what is a rightfully a $1200 watch from other brands then it's a bargain and a deal. If you're paying $500 to buy what would be a $500 watch from another legitimate maker then it's just a market correction. And this is the perception thing again: nobody pays the ridiculous retail price of an Invicta but tons of people pay it for Rolex or Omega. One offers the perception of value at least roughly in line with the price, the other doesn't.

As I have said in a lot of other comments regarding their new sales model, the practical effect is that I have now purchased a new Ball watch when before I never would have. I'm just not a player in the >$1000 watch market, but now I own a Swiss-made mechanical watch with a nice quality bracelet and a cool tritium display. My other two Ball watches were bought used, and at a higher percentage of RRP than my new one.

One of the comments I have seen made about Ball very often is that they "punch above their weight class" in the quality/cost equation. Imagine if their RRP for ADs began to reflect the same level of profit-taking they seem to be accepting online, plus 10%? An AD being able to say "We have a fantastic Swiss brand that offers cool features and great build quality in a sub-$1000 line" could perhaps make it up on volume?


----------



## Alansmithee

Elkins45 said:


> Well, to a large degree it depends on how "retail" of Ball equates to quality and features of another brand of similar retail. If your are spending $500 to buy what is a rightfully a $1200 watch from other brands then it's a bargain and a deal. If you're paying $500 to buy what would be a $500 watch from another legitimate maker then it's just a market correction. And this is the perception thing again: nobody pays the ridiculous retail price of an Invicta but tons of people pay it for Rolex or Omega. One offers the perception of value at least roughly in line with the price, the other doesn't.
> 
> As I have said in a lot of other comments regarding their new sales model, the practical effect is that I have now purchased a new Ball watch when before I never would have. I'm just not a player in the >$1000 watch market, but now I own a Swiss-made mechanical watch with a nice quality bracelet and a cool tritium display. My other two Ball watches were bought used, and at a higher percentage of RRP than my new one.
> 
> One of the comments I have seen made about Ball very often is that they "punch above their weight class" in the quality/cost equation. Imagine if their RRP for ADs began to reflect the same level of profit-taking they seem to be accepting online, plus 10%? An AD being able to say "We have a fantastic Swiss brand that offers cool features and great build quality in a sub-$1000 line" could perhaps make it up on volume?


All excellent points! I'm the same, because it's got no brand equity in the UK, I'd have never have gone near Ball at even 50% of MRRP - but at 30% or so - that makes sense.


----------



## samanator

wschofield3 said:


> You had me agreeing up until your Hydrocarbon comment. It is perhaps one of the only things that kept this brand in the game, and is, in some peoples opinion, a great design aesthetically and for durability. One could say that any design is different for the sake of being different if they don't like it...right?


I'm 100% in agreement with you. I actually started to write a similar response the other day only to have other matters make me forget about the post. The product line comments is what I've been saying a few years now, only I think it could loose about 10% more plus 5% more as a measure for all these dial engineered model (every one they add remove a older one). The price comment needs a disclaimer, based on features and value retention. Most of the dial engineered models would be a bigger percentage. The new EHC less of a percentage. The EHC is possibly the best line in the brand. While I like EMII/III, the heritage of the Train Master line, and Fireman the EHC have the most signature design elements that say this is a Ball. That we have four generations still being sold, and that most of these before the online model was brought out were the top models in the line speaks to it's appeal. I could pick 15-20 models from the various lines and the Ball line would be complete. Figuring which EHC to exclude would be the hardest decision. I'm betting my Ball watch product line would do well under either model if those are given the same price.


----------



## samanator

Elkins45 said:


> One of the comments I have seen made about Ball very often is that they "punch above their weight class" in the quality/cost equation. Imagine if their RRP for ADs began to reflect the same level of profit-taking they seem to be accepting online, plus 10%? An AD being able to say "We have a fantastic Swiss brand that offers cool features and great build quality in a sub-$1000 line" could perhaps make it up on volume?


Some of us...actually many of us don't want <$1000 watches if the current crop are any example. Even Seiko and Citizen are striving, and easily selling above this price point. To many, and as some long time contributors here have said those of us who have been around a very long time price is one thing of many things considered when buying a watch. If price is all you want then that means all these dial engineered left overs. I really want nothing to do with those and their not that representative of previous Ball watches. The truly engineered current pieces are going over your price point. From the start of these online watch volume customers we have seem most just dipping the toe in the water, and then going away. Those of us who have nurtured this brand over the years are standing back and watching from the side line. If it is the move to the volume Invicta model then we'll likely be gone. If it is a moved to well engineered watches like what Zodiac is doing (they do have a bit more sport watch heritage) then I'll stay with the brand. I think the next year or two will define if Ball survives. That it is trying to bring out some actually engineered watches over the current price point shows there may be some hope. They need to be a little better engineered than the current palette being offered. As an example no EHC, or sport watch should be shipped with no lume on the second hand so they are not quite getting it. Thankfully a little restraint was used on the Airborne II so it does not have the comical in size tubes like the Genesis, but they were fine where they were. The upgrade on the indexes would have been enough, and a move back to the Gen I EHC bracelet clasp on the newer tapered bracelet would make a excellent watch that would not have the fit issues some have with the current clasp. Even better if it had no numerals at all and was just large GTLS indexes. That is a Ball watch I would buy and given the current Ball price structure I would happily pay 2X your upper price point. There is still hope, but I hope the watches that the long time Ball watch collectors want start to show up(and not as online auction items)? Ball is not a company set up to be a volume player(at least not as a Swiss company). So if this is the only game they will not make it. The sales model is one point, but the new crop of watches are not setting hearts a fire. I've got to want it before I spend money on it. So in this case price is irrelevant.

I'll also note original Fireman and Fireman II which were excellent watches sold for less than $1000. Build a worthy new model of those that does not loose the essence of the original, and they would have something.


----------



## jcombs1

Like it or not, the purge continues....









Looks like a great deal BTW


----------



## terexac350

jcombs1 said:


> Like it or not, the purge continues....
> 
> View attachment 12646065
> 
> 
> Looks like a great deal BTW


Just saw the Deepquest black or silver face on bracelet for $1,585 new with Pelican case etc. Ball RRP $4,299

Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## john.6

Trainmaster Pulsemeter II Model CM3038C-SJ-GY sold by Amazon Japan, export price at checkout $1,347 Ball RRP $4,399 Just shows what they are valued at outside of the USA

https://www.amazon.co.jp/ボールウォッチ-BA...r=1-1&nodeID=324025011&psd=1&keywords=CM3038C


----------



## john.6

Ball watches for sale by Amazon on Amazon Japan website, around 113Yen to the Dollar and further sales tax discount at checkout

https://www.amazon.co.jp/s/ref=sr_n...s=ball&ie=UTF8&qid=1510397455&rnid=2227291051


----------



## Betterthere

OK you all have worn me down..... just let me get the Fireman Nightbreaker and flip it and I promise to move on.


----------



## NoTaWaTcHgUyOkAy

JoeC said:


> Nomos, how could I forget. I can't really get excited about bauhaus in general, but their Club and Zurich series have nice designs.
> 
> Yes, in house can be done at that price point. But by Ball?


Sorry @JoeC I got it wrong, Nomos do not have an in-house movement for $1k-3k, the Alpha and Zeta movements are Peseux movements and are not in-house, their in-house movement is the Swing System. So only Frederique Constant makes that list.


----------



## surfuz

Moving forward, I think Ball can only be sustainable if they release better models.

Long term wise, they decide to proceed without the ADs, they should open flagship stores to showcase their wares to have have strong presence.

I saw some models announced in Baselworld, but not released yet. Anyone knows if this, including the delay is normal ? 

Sent from my G8142 using Tapatalk


----------



## Betterthere

Christopher Ward ....on line model


----------



## Alansmithee

Betterthere said:


> Christopher Ward ....on line model


Yep with the same 'only rubes play the full price' business model.


----------



## zengineer

Trying to compete as an online only watch company is a challenge at any price point above $1000. Like many on this forum I would still be aware of ball and welcome a way to buy at lower cost allowed by the reduced overhead. But once they go down that path of not having even a limited AD presence they will get lumped in with other "mail order" watch companies by non-WIS and will have a very tough time selling a watch for $2000 and up. Add to that their tendency lately to design new watches based on bold new colors and little else and they will look like a high priced Invicta to the general population and not be around in 5 years.

I have an older Ball Engineer II Ohio GMT that I consider very well crafted, wear quite a bit and will probably keep forever...but almost nothing they have come out with lately interests me.
View attachment 12653011


----------



## RightYouAreKen

Alansmithee said:


> Yep with the same 'only rubes play the full price' business model.


Ok, well Stowa is also online only, yet doesn't offer tons of crazy sales and discounts. In fact, included in their business model is very personal service from friendly, named individuals on their website. In many ways, to me, it's a much more personal service than even some AD buying experiences that may have high turnover.

https://www.stowa.de/en/Service/

So, it can be done, and done well. Of course, volume outside of non-WIS population may be low, but I don't consider BALL to be a mainstream brand to begin with.


----------



## Heljestrand

RightYouAreKen said:


> ...... I don't consider BALL to be a mainstream brand to begin with.


"It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key."


----------



## Betterthere

Alansmithee said:


> Yep with the same 'only rubes play the full price' business model.


exactly


----------



## Alansmithee

RightYouAreKen said:


> Ok, well Stowa is also online only, yet doesn't offer tons of crazy sales and discounts.


Oh absolutely - I'm not saying it's the only business model but simply the one that Ball and Christopher Ward have gone for.


----------



## Elkins45

Regardless of the business model they settle upon, it is imperative that they find a way to distinguish themselves in a crowded market. Some of the fairly lackluster recent offerings aren’t exactly strong brand ambassadors.

What sets Ball apart? Tritium. They need to maximize their niche. My first two Balls were a Night Train II and an Engineer II Arabic. The reason I bought them was because of their strong use of tritium. That’s what will sell me my next Ball as well.


----------



## Alansmithee

Elkins45 said:


> What sets Ball apart? Tritium.


Tritium is just a feature, easy to copy and provides no real advantage. I think the niche is now having a) superficially good discounts (to people who don't know about the industry) and b) a lot of impressive features (anti-shock and the like) that sound good to people who don't know much about watches.

They seem to do a lot of facebook advertising now - so I'm presuming their ideal customer is someone who knows enough about watches to think that 'swiss made' is a good thing and thinks the discount is a real discount and not the actual price. Very similar to who Christopher Ward goes after. It also seems from current pre-orders they want customers who are impressed with 'ruffy-tuffy' branding ("A man from special forces said he liked our watch when we passed him a bag of money").


----------



## pro2zon

Alansmithee said:


> Tritium is just a feature, easy to copy and provides no real advantage. I think the niche is now having a) superficially good discounts (to people who don't know about the industry) and b) a lot of impressive features (anti-shock and the like) that sound good to people who don't know much about watches.
> 
> They seem to do a lot of facebook advertising now - so I'm presuming their ideal customer is someone who knows enough about watches to think that 'swiss made' is a good thing and thinks the discount is a real discount and not the actual price. Very similar to who Christopher Ward goes after. It also seems from current pre-orders they want customers who are impressed with 'ruffy-tuffy' branding ("A man from special forces said he liked our watch when we passed him a bag of money").


LOL.


----------



## zengineer

I see another Massdrop offer came out. I think this is either the start of an eventual move to online only or the beginning of the end of ball if this doesn't work for them.


----------



## Alansmithee

zengineer said:


> I see another Massdrop offer came out. I think this is either the start of an eventual move to online only or the beginning of the end of ball if this doesn't work for them.


Here in the UK - there was a glut of stock (same models) sold via various discount sites at same time.

I'm not sure its the end for Ball - are they even making their own watches or contracting them out? Their own premises in Switzerland looks like an office. If someone is making them and they are simply marketing and selling them - the numbers might add up.


----------



## Zoogleboogle

Elkins45 said:


> Regardless of the business model they settle upon, it is imperative that they find a way to distinguish themselves in a crowded market. Some of the fairly lackluster recent offerings aren't exactly strong brand ambassadors.
> 
> What sets Ball apart? Tritium. They need to maximize their niche. My first two Balls were a Night Train II and an Engineer II Arabic. The reason I bought them was because of their strong use of tritium. That's what will sell me my next Ball as well.


So true. I am shopping around for a 1500-2000 watch and im leaning towards ball over a few others primarily due to tritium.


----------



## bmfang

samanator said:


> The one big thing that is the 900lbs gorilla in the room that everyone has missed is resale. If you own a Ball watch prior to this, or have bought one since in retail, Ball Switzerland has now cut your resale value to about 30-40% of MSRP. When all the price is king people try to sell their preowned watches it should be interesting since these are the new retail base so expect -35-40% off of those. I've refused to buy any new or used Ball watches in protest of this practice. Until the company decides on what is their sales model, and price is, it is far too confusing to figure a value for a watch from them from any source.
> 
> Note when Omega did the Speedy Tuesday Limited Edition it sold for full retail and sold out in hours. That tells me what the price really is. Now with Ball using the Engineer III Carbolight as an example here is what their site says:
> 
> Engineer III CarboLIGHT: pre-order at CHF 1,200* / USD $1,299* (retail: CHF 2,150 / USD $2,199)
> ​Seems to me if you can buy it at $1299 from the manufacturer that is the retail price unless Ball is adopting Invicata's ShopNBC pricing methodology. The real retail prices is what you sell it for. It's even worse on some long time Ball Online Auction models which are in some cases going for 40% of retail. Preowned then are depreciated from this value. So if you bought two years ago or more at some normal percentage off of retail Ball Switzerland is giving you a single finger hand gesture for being a customer. Now if this was done on a one to one bases (you can buy one discounted watch for every registered retail Ball watch you have) then it would not be so damaging. You can't have two pricing models to the public for one product.


I've just found that out the hard way. Bezel fell off my NEDU within warranty and if it happens again outside of warranty I'm up for a ridiculously overpriced glue back of it. So I'm thinking of selling it now and have been offered 58% to 70% off the MSRP for it (which is ridiculous in my books).

Thankfully I negotiated a sizeable discount off my NEDU at purchase, but even so, I'm losing at best 37.5% off what I paid for it, at worst 55%. And that means I won't even be able to cover the vast bulk of a new purchase (even at pre-owned prices) of a timepiece with better "provenance" than Ball.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Alansmithee

bmfang said:


> I've just found that out the hard way. Bezel fell off my NEDU within warranty and if it happens again outside of warranty I'm up for a ridiculously overpriced glue back of it. So I'm thinking of selling it now and have been offered 58% to 70% off the MSRP for it (which is ridiculous in my books).
> 
> Thankfully I negotiated a sizeable discount off my NEDU at purchase, but even so, I'm losing at best 37.5% off what I paid for it, at worst 55%. And that means I won't even be able to cover the vast bulk of a new purchase (even at pre-owned prices) of a timepiece with better "provenance" than Ball.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At best I would pay maybe 20-30% of retail for a second hand ball watch.


----------



## Elkins45

^^^^ That might not apply to models that were never part of the preorder or bid programs. Especially for popular ones like the Night Train II as an example.


----------



## gossler

Demand an supply will always determine the price. Even if it was temporarily available on the Myoffer program.


----------



## terexac350

gossler said:


> Demand an supply will always determine the price. Even if it was temporarily available on the Myoffer program.


If there was a great demand then there wouldn't be the the massive discounting that is seen on many websites, today on the gemination site you can buy a new Deepquest for $1,860 and outside the US a new Fireman Racer DLC for $480. Look on the Jomashop site Many are at 50%.

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elkins45

terexac350 said:


> Look on the Jomashop site Many are at 50%.


So are many Seikos on Amazon.


----------



## gossler

terexac350 said:


> If there was a great demand then there wouldn't be the the massive discounting that is seen on many websites, today on the gemination site you can buy a new Deepquest for $1,860 and outside the US a new Fireman Racer DLC for $480. Look on the Jomashop site Many are at 50%.
> 
> Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


My comment was because a lot of people say the My Offer program is killing the resale value. But its not. Its the large supply and small demand that is truly to blame. And it seems every body is giving heavy discounts to get rid of inventories... even BALL


----------



## mplsabdullah

Elkins45 said:


> So are many Seikos on Amazon.


However that has sort of been the norm for most Seikos (and many other brands) for a long time. This is a big shift for Ball.


----------



## john.6

Elkins45 said:


> So are many Seikos on Amazon.


Seiko are not pricing themselves RRP wise on the level of Omega and Breitling, Ball are. Do you see these all over the web at 50% or more off ?


----------



## john.6

Elkins45 said:


> So are many Seikos on Amazon.


Seiko are not pricing themselves RRP wise on the level of Omega and Breitling, Ball are. Do you see these all over the web at 50% or more off ?


----------



## terexac350

gossler said:


> My comment was because a lot of people say the My Offer program is killing the resale value. But its not. Its the large supply and small demand that is truly to blame. And it seems every body is giving heavy discounts to get rid of inventories... even BALL


Like who ?, I don't see any manufacturers on the level of Balls RRP being discounted like this, remember outside of the US and the UK Ball watches have always been much much cheaper to buy anyway.

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## gossler

terexac350 said:


> Like who ?, I don't see any manufacturers on the level of Balls RRP being discounted like this, remember outside of the US and the UK Ball watches have always been much much cheaper to buy anyway.
> 
> Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


Buy everyone, I meant to say gray market sellers as well as some BALL ADs. Also, Im talking only about BALL here...


----------



## Elkins45

john.6 said:


> Seiko are not pricing themselves RRP wise on the level of Omega and Breitling, Ball are. Do you see these all over the web at 50% or more off ?


Companies like Rolex and Omega are a rule unto themselves. You can't compare other brands to them. The gray market sellers have all sorts of watches at large discounts. RRP is largely a fiction anyway for almost all brands except for the aforementioned elite few.

Rolex especially causes people to completely lose all sense of basic economics.


----------



## terexac350

Elkins45 said:


> Companies like Rolex and Omega are a rule unto themselves. You can't compare other brands to them. The gray market sellers have all sorts of watches at large discounts. RRP is largely a fiction anyway for almost all brands except for the aforementioned elite few.
> 
> Rolex especially causes people to completely lose all sense of basic economics.


I travel thru Asia and eastern Europe quite frequently and Ball watches are generally priced at half the US price, so their sales or pre-order pricing are just the norm in other countries.

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## Alansmithee

Elkins45 said:


> ^^^^ That might not apply to models that were never part of the preorder or bid programs. Especially for popular ones like the Night Train II as an example.


No it applies to all Ball watches - I'm not talking about what other people would do - I'm talking about my behaviour based on where the brand is heading.


----------



## Elkins45

terexac350 said:


> I travel thru Asia and eastern Europe quite frequently and Ball watches are generally priced at half the US price, so their sales or pre-order pricing are just the norm in other countries.Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


I'm hopeful it's becoming the norm here as well.


----------



## ten13th

Alansmithee said:


> At best I would pay maybe 20-30% of retail for a second hand ball watch.


20-30% of retail is 40-60% of the current direct to consumer price. This is typical range for watches of Ball's brand equity.

Ball's MSRP was never a realistic price for the brand. Even before the direct to consumer business model, you can get a Ball with 25-35% discount without much haggling. Unpopular models are routinely sold at 50-60% discount by gray market retailers.

The lower price of direct to consumer model made Ball more accessible to new consumers. Enjoy the watch for what it is. As I will when I receive my Aero GMT. Just expect to lose 30-50% from the price paid via direct to consumer price when you flip the watch. People that will buy pre-own watches are WIS. WIS are resourceful bunch, we knows the price paid on watches.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## samanator

So the Ball direct Christmas sale has zero discounts that Ball sent out. It's actually hard to find a model that is in stock on the various series on the site. At least nothing that is very popular. So much for the direct model reducing prices since everything is at retail pricing. Wonderful model.


----------



## yankeexpress

Shedding a tear for ball ADs......Not.


----------



## Alansmithee

samanator said:


> So the Ball direct Christmas sale has zero discounts that Ball sent out. It's actually hard to find a model that is in stock on the various series on the site. At least nothing that is very popular. So much for the direct model reducing prices since everything is at retail pricing. Wonderful model.


I would guess like Christopher Ward you have the watches at the full (or sucker) price because you will always find a few people who are mad enough to pay it and it makes it easier to convince people the sale price is a discount rather than the more realistic normal price.


----------



## lolo96706

The holiday email I received was sent by Ball USA. I have not seen them doing any discounting. Only Ball Swiss.


----------



## Zoogleboogle

Alansmithee said:


> I would guess like Christopher Ward you have the watches at the full (or sucker) price because you will always find a few people who are mad enough to pay it and it makes it easier to convince people the sale price is a discount rather than the more realistic normal price.


Yeah... something about these kind of "constant sales" sours me of certain brands.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davemcc

There's a small risk when trying to upscale a brand and increase it's price slowly when introducing new models. It's a much harder task to downgrade the price point of a brand without devaluing the brand as a whole and potentially losing everything. If the big giant heads at Ball foresee a downturn in the economy in general (or the luxury watch market in particular) and want to compete at a higher volume and lower but still profitable price point to get them through the next several years, this is one way that they can introduce the brand to customers at that lower price point while still trying to maintain the perceived value of the brand as a whole. 

As they introduce new models, they may generally be set at lower price points than traditionally expected. Once enough new, fast selling, low priced models are in the catalog, they can quietly discontinue the slower selling, higher priced models or keep them in the catalog as prestige leaders. They will have moved down-market but maintained much of the brand cachet that has been built up over the years. It makes sense to gain the lower priced market with discounts and bargain special editions while maintaining your market prestige with the current catalog while in that risky transition phase.


----------



## paintingtiger

Davemcc said:


> There's a small risk when trying to upscale a brand and increase it's price slowly when introducing new models. It's a much harder task to downgrade the price point of a brand without devaluing the brand as a whole and potentially losing everything. If the big giant heads at Ball foresee a downturn in the economy in general (or the luxury watch market in particular) and want to compete at a higher volume and lower but still profitable price point to get them through the next several years, this is one way that they can introduce the brand to customers at that lower price point while still trying to maintain the perceived value of the brand as a whole.
> 
> As they introduce new models, they may generally be set at lower price points than traditionally expected. Once enough new, fast selling, low priced models are in the catalog, they can quietly discontinue the slower selling, higher priced models or keep them in the catalog as prestige leaders. They will have moved down-market but maintained much of the brand cachet that has been built up over the years. It makes sense to gain the lower priced market with discounts and bargain special editions while maintaining your market prestige with the current catalog while in that risky transition phase.


A very well thought out statement. Probably the first time someone has objectively laid out what is likely going on with the brand in this changing market. It's a dicey situation for a smaller brand like Ball, but a brand like Fortis has recently died. Ball is doing what it needs to to survive. Time will tell where it goes from here and if the gamble works out. They still make a high quality product either way, and I tend to think they will maneuver their way through this transitionary period. As long as their quality remains, which I think it will.


----------



## timefleas

Davemcc said:


> There's a small risk when trying to upscale a brand and increase it's price slowly when introducing new models. It's a much harder task to downgrade the price point of a brand without devaluing the brand as a whole and potentially losing everything. If the big giant heads at Ball foresee a downturn in the economy in general (or the luxury watch market in particular) and want to compete at a higher volume and lower but still profitable price point to get them through the next several years, this is one way that they can introduce the brand to customers at that lower price point while still trying to maintain the perceived value of the brand as a whole.
> 
> As they introduce new models, they may generally be set at lower price points than traditionally expected. Once enough new, fast selling, low priced models are in the catalog, they can quietly discontinue the slower selling, higher priced models or keep them in the catalog as prestige leaders. They will have moved down-market but maintained much of the brand cachet that has been built up over the years. It makes sense to gain the lower priced market with discounts and bargain special editions while maintaining your market prestige with the current catalog while in that risky transition phase.


Interesting suppositions--the only thing that is off is that in fact they have simultaneously offered some of their long selling higher end pieces at steep discounts right alongside their cheaper new models, thereby devaluing the brand across the board, not at some time far off in the future, but right now. But yes, it may be their way of attempting to stay afloat in an unstable economy--the odd thing, though, is that there is no evidence that they had anything to worry about, at least _before _this new marketing strategy...now, I'm not all that sure.


----------



## iroh

samanator said:


> The one big thing that is the 900lbs gorilla in the room that everyone has missed is resale. If you own a Ball watch prior to this, or have bought one since in retail, Ball Switzerland has now cut your resale value to about 30-40% of MSRP. When all the price is king people try to sell their preowned watches it should be interesting since these are the new retail base so expect -35-40% off of those. I've refused to buy any new or used Ball watches in protest of this practice. Until the company decides on what is their sales model, and price is, it is far too confusing to figure a value for a watch from them from any source.
> 
> Note when Omega did the Speedy Tuesday Limited Edition it sold for full retail and sold out in hours. That tells me what the price really is. Now with Ball using the Engineer III Carbolight as an example here is what their site says:
> 
> Engineer III CarboLIGHT: pre-order at CHF 1,200* / USD $1,299* (retail: CHF 2,150 / USD $2,199)
> ​Seems to me if you can buy it at $1299 from the manufacturer that is the retail price unless Ball is adopting Invicata's ShopNBC pricing methodology. The real retail prices is what you sell it for. It's even worse on some long time Ball Online Auction models which are in some cases going for 40% of retail. *Preowned then are depreciated from this value. So if you bought two years ago or more at some normal percentage off of retail Ball Switzerland is giving you a single finger hand gesture for being a customer.* Now if this was done on a one to one bases (you can buy one discounted watch for every registered retail Ball watch you have) then it would not be so damaging. You can't have two pricing models to the public for one product.
> 
> I wanted to buy the new EHC DEVGRU, but I won't because if I can't figure out whats going on with the company so I'm not comfortable paying more than a shipping and handling fee for a watch from them. Besides the new pricing really makes me question what corners are now being cut to get these prices?
> 
> Add that this is not really any new news since we started discussing this when the model was launched with the Genesis and talked about the impact of the AD?


People who buy watches to resell for a higher price later and then find out that a watch lost value deserve the finger anyways. I guess those people haven't heard of the stock market, you can make more money putting your cash there. A watch is a watch, don't buy it expecting it to make you any money.


----------



## terexac350

iroh said:


> People who buy watches to resell for a higher price later and then find out that a watch lost value deserve the finger anyways. I guess those people haven't heard of the stock market, you can make more money putting your cash there. A watch is a watch, don't buy it expecting it to make you any money.


I don't think many people buy a watch to sell later at a profit, most realize they will lose money if they decide to sell, it's the amount that they will lose is the issue now due to the devaluation of the watches caused by this new sales method used.

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## legacy404

Well the brand right now just doesnt have the rep to compete where their MSRP's are at the numbers they want, as you can see from the overstock. Even though the quality/features/design may be even better than some of those more reknown brands, the name just isn't out there. Maybe reducing prices some will get more people into the brand, as long as engineering of these watches remains at a high level, the watches will speak for themselves in time. I myself never heard of Ball until I saw the cyber-monday deals and read some reviews.


----------



## Heljestrand

2018 should be a turning point for the brand. (As will for many of the marques that share Ball’s space). I thought a recent comment online that “Ball is often a consumers “third watch”, after they have experienced an entry level affordable and are stair stepping up the horological ladder” was an interesting observation.


----------



## paintingtiger

Heljestrand said:


> 2018 should be a turning point for the brand. (As will for many of the marques that share Ball's space). I thought a recent comment online that "Ball is often a consumers "third watch", after they have experienced an entry level affordable and are stair stepping up the horological ladder" was an interesting observation.


Yes I agree 2018 should bring into clearer focus the future path for Ball, especially in terms of their online sales model vs in store presence.


----------



## daiKel

my wife bought me a ball watch and I developed a good feeling towards the brand ever since. I've used their watch repairing services before and is very satisfied by them. Hope 2018 will be a great year for them!


----------



## watch-newbie

iroh said:


> People who buy watches to resell for a higher price later and then find out that a watch lost value deserve the finger anyways. I guess those people haven't heard of the stock market, you can make more money putting your cash there. A watch is a watch, don't buy it expecting it to make you any money.


Not many collectors are under the delusion that they can make money in this. Most of us who have been doing this for at least a few years, who have bought some pieces and then moved them learned that.

However we do hope to hold at least some of the purchase price. 3/4's is nice. Even 60 percent would be great.

But as stated, this new price scheme/retail scheme may have lowered the prices but they have effectively killed the used market. Just in november I bought an engineer II, NIB from a WUS member for a grand. I thought I did ok. Then ball comes along a few weeks later and introduces the engineer III. 2893 movement, for $899. Less than I paid for an old stock piece. What do you think the engineer II is worth now?

I've been looking for months for a used trainmaster eternity silver dial. I couldn't find one so I finally found a grey market deal that I could stomach at $1500. I looked at alot of pictures, carefully studied the dimensions and I think it's a piece I can live with for a very long time. But I decide I need to flip it I bet I can't get more than $700 for it.


----------



## Karkarov

watch-newbie said:


> Not many collectors are under the delusion that they can make money in this. Most of us who have been doing this for at least a few years, who have bought some pieces and then moved them learned that.
> 
> However we do hope to hold at least some of the purchase price. 3/4's is nice. Even 60 percent would be great.
> 
> But as stated, this new price scheme/retail scheme may have lowered the prices but they have effectively killed the used market. Just in november I bought an engineer II, NIB from a WUS member for a grand. I thought I did ok. Then ball comes along a few weeks later and introduces the engineer III. 2893 movement, for $899. Less than I paid for an old stock piece. What do you think the engineer II is worth now?
> 
> I've been looking for months for a used trainmaster eternity silver dial. I couldn't find one so I finally found a grey market deal that I could stomach at $1500. I looked at alot of pictures, carefully studied the dimensions and I think it's a piece I can live with for a very long time. But I decide I need to flip it I bet I can't get more than $700 for it.


I don't know you might be surprised. A lot of value is placed on rarity and prestige. A person looking to buy a ball engineer II might not like the III because it is new, or has some design change they don't like, or dislikes the market model and feels it "lessens the value of the watch".

I am just saying people are weird, it is hard to predict what might happen in a market where value is so strongly driven by sentiment.


----------



## Betterthere

watch-newbie said:


> Not many collectors are under the delusion that they can make money in this. Most of us who have been doing this for at least a few years, who have bought some pieces and then moved them learned that.
> 
> However we do hope to hold at least some of the purchase price. 3/4's is nice. Even 60 percent would be great.
> 
> But as stated, this new price scheme/retail scheme may have lowered the prices but they have effectively killed the used market. Just in november I bought an engineer II, NIB from a WUS member for a grand. I thought I did ok. Then ball comes along a few weeks later and introduces the engineer III. 2893 movement, for $899. Less than I paid for an old stock piece. What do you think the engineer II is worth now?
> 
> I've been looking for months for a used trainmaster eternity silver dial. I couldn't find one so I finally found a grey market deal that I could stomach at $1500. I looked at alot of pictures, carefully studied the dimensions and I think it's a piece I can live with for a very long time. But I decide I need to flip it I bet I can't get more than $700 for it.


Youmight be right I couldn't flip firebreaker with slight loss. Color me DONE.


----------

