# Open Letter to Doxa



## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

I think everyone knows me and what I have done to help build the Doxa brand over the last 18 years. I had and still do have a passion for the brand but no matter what I helped achieve, Doxa would be nothing except a historical footnote without Rick Marei. Anyone who has the 50th book will have read how he started Doxa back up and built it to what it is today. Most people also know that Rick is no longer with Doxa. I won’t go into what happened, but I think you know how I feel about it and the new management.
The only thing I will say is that their announcement about taking over was shameful at best and totally and utterly unprofessional at worst. Not a mention of Rick Marei or what he achieved.

So here is my suggestion, plea, offer or whatever you want to call it on how to do the right thing and make amends to many people.

Publicly acknowledge the contribution Rick Marei made in resurrecting the Doxa brand.

Do this by making the Rick Marei edition SUB 300T. Make 50, gave Rick number 1

You can have my preorder money now. I don’t think you would have any problem selling them.

The way to do it would be to base it off a modified Marei era 600T or 1000T but with a later model crown in the case of the 600T.

Use a vintage profile flat caseback with the Sailboat image, flat crystal, and 600T bezel.

The 600T case is thinner but the 1000T case is actually closest to the first generation SUB 300T which I consider the ‘gold standard’ in Doxa SUB cases. In order to use a flatter caseback it may need the increased height of the 1000T.

Use the last of the Marei era folding clasp bracelets. Remove the Jenny fish from the crown and clasp and just use DOXA on the crown and clasp.

Go with the flat endlinks look from the vintage. Not the Marei era ones that have the look of a continuation of the bracelet beads of rice.

Also make sure the endlinks don’t protrude past the edge of the case lugs.

Engrave RICK MAREI EDITION around the caseback

I’m happy to release use of the Introduction chapter from the 50th book. You could make a give away pamphlet with it. It describes the rebirth of the Doxa brand.

If you did this, it would restore a lot of people’s faith in you and win back a lot of friends. It would show some class and pay respect and give dues to someone without whom there really wouldn’t be a Doxa anymore.

Heck, I’ll even start buying the new SUBs and doing reviews again.

Just to show you that I’m serious about this. If you do it, I’ll sign over the rights to my 40th Doxa book to Doxa for ever, no royalties. It’s yours and I’ll work something out with the 50th so you can use it too.

Rick Marei doesn’t know anything about this. Totally my idea. Actually, when he sees it, he’s probably going to be really pissed at me.

Anyone at Doxa wants to talk to me about this, they know how to find me.


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## Chronomatic (Jan 12, 2013)

Flyingdoctor said:


> I think everyone knows me and what I have done to help build the Doxa brand over the last 18 years. I had and still do have a passion for the brand but no matter what I helped achieve, Doxa would be nothing except a historical footnote without Rick Marei. Anyone who has the 50th book will have read how he started Doxa back up and built it to what it is today. Most people also know that Rick is no longer with Doxa. I won't go into what happened, but I think you know how I feel about it and the new management.
> The only thing I will say is that their announcement about taking over was shameful at best and totally and utterly unprofessional at worst. Not a mention of Rick Marei or what he achieved.
> 
> So here is my suggestion, plea, offer or whatever you want to call it on how to do the right thing and make amends to many people.
> ...


Doc you're the man. Thanks for all you do for our beloved brand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## reluctantsnowman (Jan 5, 2017)

I second this idea.. We need this to happen


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## electric_cowboy (Mar 8, 2017)

Excellent idea!!! Would love to see this happen.

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## WatchDialOrange (Dec 30, 2011)

That would be a really nice Doxa addition and a great way to honor Rick!


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## PolishX (Nov 12, 2007)

I dont think their management cares if they drive this brand into the dirt in some weird way.


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## ChrisWMT (Dec 4, 2018)

So nice of you Doc, I'm in if this happens!


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## Monkeynuts (Dec 23, 2012)

It would probably be £5000 if it got made as it’s limited so I’d be out


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## Pegasus (Jan 23, 2008)

I somehow don’t see that they will care. You even have to play guess the components now when you buy a new watch.


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

Dont go signing the rights to your hard work and dedication, to prove a point bro, thats a bad idea imo.


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## Anders_Flint (Jan 26, 2019)

I cant even begin to imagine the legal issues of Doxa slapping Rick's name on a product, especially if he wasn't interested in such a conciliatory gesture, could it even be done?

The biggest problem would be, the majority of folks purchasing a Doxa have no idea who Rick Marei is, or that he was responsible for resurrecting the brand. I mean hell, im still dubious about the "Dirk Pitt" version, but at least that had some commercial appeal beyond a few die hard fans of the brand.

Potential naming issues aside though, the actual watch sounds superb, I'd be a day 1 purchase.


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## cuthbert (Dec 6, 2009)

If this project comes to fruition and the price is reasonable I´d be in.


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## bricem13 (Apr 6, 2010)

I am a new comer in the brand so ignorant about the Rick Marei story.

Surely he did a lot and it ended up in a way the former fan base has issue to accept. I do not doubt about his contribution and don't want to have the details here, i understood there is a book to better understand it.

However we surely do not have the full details of the story between the management and Rick and will never have them. A decision was taken and that people like it or not, the person who took it was as brand owner legitimate to take it.

As new to the brand, i appreciate the product but feel sad about this constant bashing of the current management.

My 2cts, not willing to get slapped or throw oil on fire but i might not be the only to feel that and i don't believe it deserves the brand.


Ps: english is not my native language, so my words are surely rude but it is not my intention to offense

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## ross2187 (Sep 16, 2016)

bricem13 said:


> I am a new comer in the brand so ignorant about the Rick Marei story.
> 
> Surely he did a lot and it ended up in a way the former fan base has issue to accept. I do not doubt about his contribution and don't want to have the details here, i understood there is a book to better understand it.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your sentiments. New to the brand as well, but I've been following for awhile.

Management changeovers are always hard, and not always appreciated. That said, I'm not sure what the continued beating of the dead horse will get us. Sure a company should / could acknowledge it's history, but it's leadership must chart a course they see best fit under their stewardship. Of which we are not privy too, as we are not the management. In order to survive profits must be made and the masses (not the individual) served.

I'm pretty darn happy with my new 300T. Sure it could be thinner, lugs a hair longer. But for 2k I'm pretty darn happy. It'll go nicely with my BB58. Count me a happy fan!


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

To the newcommers. Ignore my comments about management. I don't like the injustice that happened and someone trying to rewrite history and take the credit for something another man did. I'm defending a friend and pretty much wasting my time. But, I saw a photo of the future today and in many ways it proves good things come out of bad things. Enjoy your watches.


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## MHe225 (Jan 24, 2010)

Sign me up !


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Photo of the future? Oh man, don't leave that just hanging there!


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

Guys I'm sorry I can't show it. I'd get murdered but it is way, way, way beyond my wildest expectation. Doxa could only dream of something this good.... and it ain't made of plastic


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## ross2187 (Sep 16, 2016)

Man now I feel like I may ahve made a mistake in getting my new 300t!


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## swissra (Sep 27, 2014)

Great idea! Hopefully they implement it.


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## Formula1980 (Mar 23, 2011)

WatchDialOrange said:


> That would be a really nice Doxa addition and a great way to honor Rick!


I think it would be wonderful (and that's an understatement) to give credit where it has long been due!


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## Monkeynuts (Dec 23, 2012)

Flyingdoctor said:


> To the newcommers. Ignore my comments about management. I don't like the injustice that happened and someone trying to rewrite history and take the credit for something another man did. I'm defending a friend and pretty much wasting my time. But, I saw a photo of the future today and in many ways it proves good things come out of bad things. Enjoy your watches.





Flyingdoctor said:


> Guys I'm sorry I can't show it. I'd get murdered but it is way, way, way beyond my wildest expectation. Doxa could only dream of something this good.... and it ain't made of plastic


Is this the future of doxa or rick?


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## Snulle (Apr 15, 2011)

Monkeynuts said:


> Is this the future of doxa or rick?


Doxa would most likely not show Pete anything they have coming in the future now that Rick is no longer involved and since Pete writes "Doxa could only dream of something this good.... " I can only assume it's something upcoming from Ricks new business. Sounds exciting!


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## Ketchup time (Apr 23, 2015)

Doc, are we talking a new Aquadive?


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## Ot1S (Apr 18, 2018)

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy............I feel my tail wagging (well...where one used to be ; )
Is that future that you are killing us with ORANGE????
With a boxed sapphire pretty please......
Any indication when we will hear more about this????


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## Crow1962 (Mar 3, 2009)

C’mon Doc, gives us more, I have no fingernails left !!!


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## Ot1S (Apr 18, 2018)

.........Any.....whoooooe.....I've been thinking about this, and I seriously doubt it will be as perfect as the.......
sub 300 (t?) 50th anniversary model, it is like a hit song thats so GOOD you will never ever top it.
And even if it would (which I really doubt) what would be the price of it???


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## jtp0615 (Aug 10, 2016)

I’m guessing this is an aqua dive...one of rick’s new projects 


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## reluctantsnowman (Jan 5, 2017)

I wish Rick picks up an old brand like Aquastar.. their watches were 

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## Monkeynuts (Dec 23, 2012)

deleted


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Do like my Aquastars too - the Seatime has a look of its own, great size, overlooked and underrated IMO. Especially like the silver dial - the greyish blue a bit more bland but looks good when the sun highlights the silver bezel markings. Dials seem to have survived better than the earlier 63 and still a reasonable price for a 'different' looking diver with a bit of history.

Where Doxa scores in design over Aquadives is that 46mm L2L which makes the 300s suitable for quite small wrists - the 50mm of the Aquadive much less so.


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## 11thsfgrp (Feb 26, 2016)

A great idea to recognize the contribution. Have loved your posts for many years going back to the very early days of Doxa.


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## Floyd0706 (Jan 3, 2009)

Hello guys,
As much as I like to share your enthusiasm on the new creation of Rick M. , I have and hate to say, that the Doxa unique design is unreached by any other dive watch producer. First there is that rich orange dial ,that unique diving bezel with its depth and decompression time table, then there is the dwarfed hour hand that keeps ones focus on the minute hand. I know there are a lot of beautiful Divers out there,even probably better build ones, but what has kept me wanting a Doxa since my child years are it's looks. But when talking about the customer support of Doxa........ let's just say I had and still have my share of bad experience.
My recent ( unbelievable) Doxa experience!! 
But let's just see what our beloved Rick Marei has coming to us
Greetings 
Frank S.


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## drram1966 (Aug 11, 2014)

The new Doxa management is the classic example of modern cut-throat men in suit who over take a company and all they care about is what they can do to maximize their investment and make a profit for the investors, without giving 2 sh-ts about the company history and legacy, the employees or the people who contributed into making it special. This is modern corporate management and unfortunately its the way of today.
Adding to this, I recently called Doxa and asked if I could get a 10% discount if I bought 2 1500T ($4800) and the woman on the phone with a *****y attitude told me that Doxa 'DOES NOT' offer discount on their watches...when I told her that I had been collecting them for over 15 yrs and that she was wrong, she went on to say that was done at the local level with Andy and that he no longer works for Doxa because he was giving discounts on his own. I simply said, thank you and hung up. 
Love their watches, not happy with their new attitude....very corporate.


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

drram1966 said:


> The new Doxa management is the classic example of modern cut-throat men in suit who over take a company and all they care about is what they can do to maximize their investment and make a profit for the investors, without giving 2 sh-ts about the company history and legacy, the employees or the people who contributed into making it special. This is modern corporate management and unfortunately its the way of today.
> Adding to this, I recently called Doxa and asked if I could get a 10% discount if I bought 2 1500T ($4800) and the woman on the phone with a *****y attitude told me that Doxa 'DOES NOT' offer discount on their watches...when I told her that I had been collecting them for over 15 yrs and that she was wrong, she went on to say that was done at the local level with Andy and that he no longer works for Doxa because he was giving discounts on his own. I simply said, thank you and hung up.
> Love their watches, not happy with their new attitude....very corporate.


Can you kindly confirm what, in your opinion, the New Management has done which identify they don't care about the companies legacy?

In respect of the Discount - well you can get Omega's, and even Tudors, and reasonable Discounts - but I've yet to hear people being able to get Rolex's with them. Hence that's why some people say that Rolexes are a better investment because you won't have paid full wack - only to find out a month or so later someones got one with 25% off. So by refusing to give a discount they're actually protecting the 2nd-hand value.

Additionally the 1500T is about £2k cheaper than a Seamaster. Now, some people may hark on about its in-house movement - but the ETA2892 is extremely good - and although that may justify the Omega being a bit more expensive - IMHO it doesn't justify nearly twice the price. So one way of looking at it is that effectively DOXA are selling at a more market realistic price - with discount built in.

However, perhaps what DOXA should do is create some kind of 'Collectors Club' - and if you say can show you bought 2, get a 3rd at a discount?


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## CityMorgue (Jun 30, 2009)

KAS118 said:


> Can you kindly confirm what, in your opinion, the New Management has done which identify they don't care about the companies legacy?


Absolutely, there have been multiple articles from the CEO and other places that have only mentioned the '60s era DOXAs. This is all fine and dandy as that's when the sub was first brought to the public. But then these same articles only talk about the last 2 or 3 years since the CEO took over as if he just resurrected the brand from the dead. I'm sorry, but no matter how you look at it, Marei resurrected the brand and brought about 20 years of watches. Did he do everything perfectly? No.. Did the Jenny's interfere too much to hamper some decisions over the years? Yup... Point being, is Jans wouldn't be able to talk about DOXA in such a way if it wasn't for the passion that Marei brought to convince the Jenny's to truly resurrect the brand.



KAS118 said:


> In respect of the Discount - well you can get Omega's, and even Tudors, and reasonable Discounts - but I've yet to hear people being able to get Rolex's with them. Hence that's why some people say that Rolexes are a better investment because you won't have paid full wack - only to find out a month or so later someones got one with 25% off. So by refusing to give a discount they're actually protecting the 2nd-hand value.


Actually, if you go look in the Rolex forums, there are MANY instances of people getting discounts on Rolex's at ADs... I can promise you that if you walked into a Rolex AD and sweet talked them, they would give you a discount, especially if you were a 'regular'



KAS118 said:


> However, perhaps what DOXA should do is create some kind of 'Collectors Club' - and if you say can show you bought 2, get a 3rd at a discount?


That would be nice, but if they are stingy now on discounts, don't hold your breath.


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

CityMorgue said:


> Absolutely, there have been multiple articles from the CEO and other places that have only mentioned the '60s era DOXAs. This is all fine and dandy as that's when the sub was first brought to the public. But then these same articles only talk about the last 2 or 3 years since the CEO took over as if he just resurrected the brand from the dead. I'm sorry, but no matter how you look at it, Marei resurrected the brand and brought about 20 years of watches. Did he do everything perfectly? No.. Did the Jenny's interfere too much to hamper some decisions over the years? Yup... Point being, is Jans wouldn't be able to talk about DOXA in such a way if it wasn't for the passion that Marei brought to convince the Jenny's to truly resurrect the brand.


And this is where we differ.

You see, we've only really had 1 side of the story - not the Jenny.

Now, I'm fully prepared to accept that Marei did do a lot to get the brand going again - but most of it - even your post - puts forward a story that the Jenny family did SFA - indeed you even suggest they tried to hamper it.

What there doesn't seem to be is any recognition that the Jenny family owned the brand - and it was their money that was also at risk.

I also find it difficult to accept at face value that they would try and hamper their own brand - whereas all I'm now hearing is that they're only interested in profit. The 2 really don't correlate.

Frankly, whilst I am prepared to accept that Marei did play a significant part in relaunching it, I don't think it was then developed in the way it should have been the previous Management - as I said before all it really was was a glorified microbrand - so I'm sad to say it was time for a change.

However, while the New Management do go on about the 60's - I don't see that as a bad thing - and they are raising the profile, widening the appeal by bringing in both a more affordable watch - and looking to improve the Customer Service experience - and also brining in more avant-grade models.

So all that seems to suggest to me that they do have a passion for the brand - and want to move it forwards - something that, it seems to me, the previous management didn't do.



CityMorgue said:


> Actually, if you go look in the Rolex forums, there are MANY instances of people getting discounts on Rolex's at ADs... I can promise you that if you walked into a Rolex AD and sweet talked them, they would give you a discount, especially if you were a 'regular'


Well maybe it's different in the USA - but in the UK some AD's are asking previous customers to write a CV demonstrating why the should be 'allowed' to buy one.


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## CityMorgue (Jun 30, 2009)

KAS118 said:


> And this is where we differ.
> 
> You see, we've only really had 1 side of the story - not the Jenny.
> 
> ...


Jenny really did just sit on the brand for years before Marei convinced them to relaunch the sub. Marei also put up a lot of his own money to help resurrect it. So of course their money was at risk, but without Marei, DOXA would not have been resurrected and they would be sitting on a gold mine.

At the time, it was a big risk for them to go full scale with DOXA at the time, so of course for years it was just small releases here and there. Only in the last few years has the brand name finally got out and truly took off. In the last few years, it truly started bringing in money and Jenny brought in Jans to fully capitalize on it. Not saying it's bad, but the way it's been handled is what miffs a lot of us old guard as you put it.

At the end of the day, it's the complete erasure of the last 20 years that really pisses me off more than anything.



KAS118 said:


> However, while the New Management do go on about the 60's - I don't see that as a bad thing - and they are raising the profile, widening the appeal by bringing in both a more affordable watch - and looking to improve the Customer Service experience - and also brining in more avant-grade models.
> 
> So all that seems to suggest to me that they do have a passion for the brand - and want to move it forwards - something that, it seems to me, the previous management didn't do.


I don't see it as bad thing either bringing in the 60's. They however, did the same marketing strategy when it was resurrect in 99.

I'm not completely against them having watches that can be bought at all times. It's one thing that should have happened during the Marei era as well. But the last couple of moves by DOXA really put a sting on how some of the previous limited editions were handled.

I don't know how you can say that they are bringing in a more affordable watch....When the first 300 reissue was release it was only like $800 or $900. And through the years the prices slowly raised, but only the T-graphs ever reached just above the 2k mark. Most were in the range of $1200-$1800. The $5k release of the carbon is absolutely insane, and the rerelease of the 300 no-t at $2500 is pretty insane as well considering just a couple of years before that they were only 1800 and a limited edition at that. Nothing about a single release from DOXA suggest they are bringing in more affordable watches. They are pricing themselves into territory that are making some pause and look at other brands. I love DOXA, I've owned something like 15 different models over the years, and they are not in the realms of other more pricey brands of watches that are out there.



KAS118 said:


> Well maybe it's different in the USA - but in the UK some AD's are asking previous customers to write a CV demonstrating why the should be 'allowed' to buy one.
> 
> View attachment 15454982


Asking to buy a watch with a resume is a completely different issue than getting a Rolex with a discount. I think the idea of having to suck up to an AD and buy tons of other crap and submit a resume for the opportunity to buy a Rolex is absolutely bonkers.

I would love to own a no date sub at some point in my life, but if Rolex allows these shenanigans to continue, I will not patronize them and buy a watch. I also will not go into the GM to buy a sub that is sooo ridiculously overpriced because speculators have got into the game.

This is one thing that I commend DOXA for doing over the years. It didn't matter your previous purchase history or having to suck up to DOXA for the privilege of buying one. If you had the money, they would sell it to you. Plus by selling directly to customers, they eliminate the middle man and makes the experience better in some aspects.


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

CityMorgue said:


> At the end of the day, it's the complete erasure of the last 20 years that really pisses me off more than anything.


I would agree that recognition should be given - although on both sides.

However, unfortunately someones behaviour (not Marei's - who by the way I've dealt with before and found very helpful), has probably made that unlikely to happen.



CityMorgue said:


> I don't know how you can say that they are bringing in a more affordable watch....When the first 300 reissue was release it was only like $800 or $900.


Well I'm not sure how far you're going back - but the Sub200 starts at £910 and the current Sub300T starts at £1,780 - so in my book a sub £1,000 watch at modern prices is considerably more 'affordable' than the Sub300T which I believe is a similar price to what the Sub1200T was.

Indeed, my Sub1500T was listed as costing $2,790 but with a 'pre-order' price of $1,990 (excluding VAT) - its currently now listed at $2,390 - so its got $400 cheaper over 6 years!


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## CityMorgue (Jun 30, 2009)

KAS118 said:


> Well I'm not sure how far you're going back - but the Sub200 starts at £910 and the current Sub300T starts at £1,780 - so in my book a sub £1,000 watch at modern prices is considerably more 'affordable' than the Sub300T which I believe is a similar price to what the Sub1200T was.
> 
> Indeed, my Sub1500T was listed as costing $2,790 but with a 'pre-order' price of $1,990 (excluding VAT) - its currently now listed at $2,390 - so its got $400 cheaper over 6 years!


The sub200 is quite the different model from the DOXA that is renowned. The 300T might be around the same price at the end of the life of the 1200T yes, but as you can see with the current trend of DOXA models, everything is spiking up in price by significant chunks.

Every watch in the Marei era had a listed priced that was higher than their 'preorder' price. I remember the old website that would claim this, and it was just marketing really. When I first bought my 1000T back in 09, the listed price was like $1700 or some crazy thing like that, but it only cost me like $1200, and that was a couple of years after the watch had already been released.

As far as I can remember, no watch ever was put at the list price. Everything was sold at the preorder price. So yes, technically the 1500 got $400 more expensive.

My sub 1200 cost like 1400, but had a list price of like 1900. It never hit those number throughout it's entire life span.


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## CityMorgue (Jun 30, 2009)

MHe225 said:


> Numerous sources have been consulted for this compilation of specs, dimensions, production numbers, etc. for most of Doxa SUB's:
> 
> 
> www.doxawatches.com
> ...


If you look at this little pinned topic on this specific board, you can see that it's lists both the MSRP and what the watches sold at. No watches were sold at the specific MSRP except for some limited editions, but even those prices were lower than the actual MSRP that would be listed. So sorry to say KAS118, but you are wrong that new DOXAs are cheaper today than before.


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## drram1966 (Aug 11, 2014)

KAS118 said:


> Can you kindly confirm what, in your opinion, the New Management has done which identify they don't care about the companies legacy?
> 
> In respect of the Discount - well you can get Omega's, and even Tudors, and reasonable Discounts - but I've yet to hear people being able to get Rolex's with them. Hence that's why some people say that Rolexes are a better investment because you won't have paid full wack - only to find out a month or so later someones got one with 25% off. So by refusing to give a discount they're actually protecting the 2nd-hand value.
> 
> ...


@KAS118... Honestly I cannot confirm or deny anything about this new management that is good or bad. I simply made a general statement about the way corporations are being run nowadays based on my own experience in the corporate world. They are all about the bottom line and stock appreciation in value. Often times they do it at the expense of the brand and or the employees that contributed to the company. 
As far as the discount part for Doxa... This person obviously didn't know what she was talking about. Doxa had for years given 10% discounts at different times of the year (ie Christmas etc). So if they no longer do that, all she had to do is inform me in a pleasant voice that they stopped the policy of giving discounts. Instead she had an attitude like 'how dare you ask for a discount' and tells me Doxa "NEVER" offered discounts before on their watches. My first reaction was to snap back and put her in her place and inform her that I have been buying these watches at 10% discounts (4 of them in fact) before she even knew that Doxa existed.... but I stayed classy and simply said, "thank you... have a good day".
Discounts are a function of how much you want to move your merchandise. Everyone knows that if you have a temporary 'sale' you will sell more. If they feel they don't need to have sales, that's great because it means they are happy with the way their watches are selling. Rolex, Patek, Audemar, Tudor don't offer discounts for the most part because the demand for them is high and they don't need to (Rolex does offer discounts on some of their less popular watches). Omegas and the others do give small discounts to 'invigorate' sales. If Doxa doesn't offer sales anymore its not because they want to improve their street value or be seen as a good investment like Rolex...its simply because their watches are selling well on their own and they don't need to discount them...that simple.
As far as this statement goes: "Additionally the 1500T is about £2k cheaper than a Seamaster. Now, some people may hark on about its in-house movement - but the ETA2892 is extremely good - and although that may justify the Omega being a bit more expensive "........ There is no comparison between a Seamaster and any Doxa... I own both... They are in 2 completely different class and shouldn't be compared because they are both great watches in their own right and comparing them wouldn't be fair to either watch... especially the Doxa.


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

CityMorgue said:


> If you look at this little pinned topic on this specific board, you can see that it's lists both the MSRP and what the watches sold at. No watches were sold at the specific MSRP except for some limited editions, but even those prices were lower than the actual MSRP that would be listed. So sorry to say KAS118, but you are wrong that new DOXAs are cheaper today than before.


The $400 cheaper comment was 'tongue in cheek' however the point is that it hasn't got significantly more expensive in real terms. $1,990 in 2014 is $2,184 in 2020 according to this US Inflation Calculator

The other point is that its not really clever to advertise a MSRP that is so over-inflated because its going to give the impression of very low second hand values.

'Proper' realistic pricing is more sensible IMHO.


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## drmdwebb (Apr 17, 2020)

I don't know anything about the Doxa backstory. I just know I love their stuff, and can't wait until I can buy one (too many purchases lately to do it now).

I really appreciate it that there are so many knowledgeable people about Doxa on this forum!


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

drram1966 said:


> @KAS118... Honestly I cannot confirm or deny anything about this new management that is good or bad. I simply made a general statement about the way corporations are being run nowadays based on my own experience in the corporate world. They are all about the bottom line and stock appreciation in value. Often times they do it at the expense of the brand and or the employees that contributed to the company.
> As far as the discount part for Doxa... This person obviously didn't know what she was talking about. Doxa had for years given 10% discounts at different times of the year (ie Christmas etc). So if they no longer do that, all she had to do is inform me in a pleasant voice that they stopped the policy of giving discounts. Instead she had an attitude like 'how dare you ask for a discount' and tells me Doxa "NEVER" offered discounts before on their watches. My first reaction was to snap back and put her in her place and inform her that I have been buying these watches at 10% discounts (4 of them in fact) before she even knew that Doxa existed.... but I stayed classy and simply said, "thank you... have a good day".
> Discounts are a function of how much you want to move your merchandise. Everyone knows that if you have a temporary 'sale' you will sell more. If they feel they don't need to have sales, that's great because it means they are happy with the way their watches are selling. Rolex, Patek, Audemar, Tudor don't offer discounts for the most part because the demand for them is high and they don't need to (Rolex does offer discounts on some of their less popular watches). Omegas and the others do give small discounts to 'invigorate' sales. If Doxa doesn't offer sales anymore its not because they want to improve their street value or be seen as a good investment like Rolex...its simply because their watches are selling well on their own and they don't need to discount them...that simple.
> As far as this statement goes: "Additionally the 1500T is about £2k cheaper than a Seamaster. Now, some people may hark on about its in-house movement - but the ETA2892 is extremely good - and although that may justify the Omega being a bit more expensive "........ There is no comparison between a Seamaster and any Doxa... I own both... They are in 2 completely different class and shouldn't be compared because they are both great watches in their own right and comparing them wouldn't be fair to either watch... especially the Doxa.
> ...


I agree that, by the sounds of it, she could and should have been a bit more diplomatic - but out of curiosity was it the American or European office you were talking to.

You see certain European countries can be more 'blunt' especially when speaking a foreign language - so what comes across to an American or English person as being 'rude' isn't necessarily intended that way - so I wonder if that's part the issue?

As for the Omega v DOXA thing - as i said before I disagree. The Sub1500T can and does hold its own against the Seamaster. I did look at the Seamaster when getting my Sub - and at that time In seem to recall the prices were a lot closer - and 2 people I know do actually own them.

I've made my views known on the Seamaster before and if you're happy with it and think its worth twice the price of a Sub1500T then so be it and good for you - we all have different tastes and different priorities. But needless to say I'm more than happy that I chose the Sub1500T over the Seamaster.


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## Kirkawall (Mar 28, 2015)

KAS118 said:


> I agree that, by the sounds of it, she could and should have been a bit more diplomatic - but out of curiosity was it the American or European office you were talking to.
> 
> You see certain European countries can be more 'blunt' especially when speaking a foreign language - so what comes across to an American or English person as being 'rude' isn't necessarily intended that way - so I wonder if that's part the issue?
> 
> ...


Sounds like two watches that are in a state of fierce competition, if not precisely open conflict.

Whereas mine get along rather nicely...


















Both superb watches, with quite difference compromises. Each is a strong value in its category, IMO, although the Omega price rises of late are not making that value argument any easier.

I do think Doxa would be wise to aim higher in its CS, although I've had an excellent recent experience with some help from a forum member. Omega's CS is among the best in the industry, in my experience as a longtime collector.


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## Henki (Oct 23, 2010)

So, a long time ago (2007-2010) I worked for Rick and helped represent DOXA. I would like to take this opportunity to try and dispel some misconceptions that seem to be out there. First and foremost, the Jenny family owned DOXA, and still own DOXA now. There was not a change of ownership. We in North America under Rick Marei had the rights to the DOXA SUB. This is why you generally did not see any of the rest of the DOXA collection with very, very few exceptions. The Jenny's then and even up to a few years ago were not really interested in doing much with the SUB, because Rick did well with it, and they didn't really have to do too much to get benefit from it, it was just gravy. Their main markets had been in Eastern Europe and over time have shifted to China in terms of sales, etc. And DOXA was (and is) just one of their interests in the watch business.

While I appreciate that there are a lot of different perceptions about what was, and what is now, there are some fairly basic realities that seem to get glossed over - Rick Marei was pretty much single handedly responsible for the SUB as most of us know it through its rebirth and development. His desire to bring it back, his money to fund it, his creation of this still thriving DOXA Forum. But in fairness, a Jenny family member was involved in the very first re-edition (Peter, I believe), who then left the family business (Walca) to pursue his own interests in fashion). But it is also important to understand that the Jenny's owned (and as far as I know still own) DOXA. For whatever reason (and yes I do know, but it is not my place to divulge the details), they decided that they wanted to have control of the brand in its entirety - and that included the SUB. They did hire a new CEO about 2 years ago who had worked for other Swiss brands and also had connections in the US. I would assume that from his perspective, his thought process was something like - "how hard could it be to make and sell watches online?" Well, as you all are learning now - not so easy. But more specifically, he felt that DOXA was bigger than just direct, that it should be in stores. While there are now retail partnerships out there (and yes, I worked on the ill-fated partnerships with Feldmar and Topper in California nearly 14 years ago now), it remains to be seen how well those are going to do even in the mid-term. Ironically, the more traditional retail and wholesale market is something that the Jennys and the current CEO of DOXA understand quite well. It is the direct to consumer model that they are challenged getting their heads around.

I cannot and will not speak for Rick. He and I remain friends to this day and we have worked on a few projects together since I moved on, and it is not for me to share or hypothesize what he may, or may not be thinking or feeling. That is for him and him alone to talk about. What I can tell you, is that I have worked (and continue to work) with people who either worked for DOXA or Walca (the white label company owned by the Jenny family), and it is not really a classic case of "corporate thinking/acting" that it seems several people think it is. It is much simpler. DOXA is owned by a family. The family hired a new CEO. The new CEO convinced them that they did not need an "outsider" to be involved and hold control over a portion of the company (even one who had been involved, albeit not directly employed by DOXA for nearly 20 years), and that they (or more specifically he) could really do something with the SUB. This was not typical corporate greed, this was ego. Nearly a year and a half down the road it is not really clear that he, or the Jenny's really understand what made the DOXA SUB attractive and desirable to the watch buying public. For you fans and collectors, I realize that it is great when you feel that you are part of a group, part of the brand itself. In my time since DOXA, working with other brands trying to capture that same magic, I can tell you that it is like lightning in a bottle. It is not easy to achieve, nearly impossible to replicate. And once it's gone, it is next to impossible to bring it back

While I can say that I always felt that DOXA was a passion for Rick, I don't know if you can really say that 100% for the owners or for the CEO. And while it can be easy to say: "Rick good/Jennys bad", keep in mind that the Jennys have been in the watch business for a loooonnnnng time. Rick came to the watch industry from a different field, as I did. And as you know, it is often the enthusiast, the fan, the person who is really passionate about a brand or product that turns it into something special, and that is just what Rick did with DOXA. In my current consulting work with Swiss, French and Japanese brands, I am often tasked with helping a brand understand and then develop their identity. This is a lot tougher than it seems, particularly in the watch business (and even more particularly when as an American you are viewed as a know-nothing outsider). And it is safe to say that as an Austrian, coming to a Swiss brand with a brilliant idea but not being an industry guy (or Swiss) and convincing them to do something different, it wasn't easy. Yes, without Rick Marei the SUB would not have been brought back to life. But without the passionate participation of all of you and the many fans who came before and will hopefully come after? It never would have gotten to where it is now. You are all as much a part of the DOXA story as anyone else. Because DOXA was, and remains The People's Dive Watch (that is the title from my as-yet unpublished book, so don't even think about taking it ).

It's hard when a team or family member leaves. You tend to forget the disagreements and upsets, but always - and fortunately - remember the good times. Keep the faith, hopefully there are more good times ahead for you devoted members of the DOXA tribe ; )

That's all I have to say, be well.


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

Henki said:


> .....The People's Dive Watch (that is the title from my as-yet unpublished book, so don't even think about taking it ).


That really would be a great title for a book about it.

Whatever the difference's of opinion are I think it's obvious that Doxa do need some positive PR - you should perhaps approach them with it - it can't do any harm 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldman2005 (Feb 13, 2006)

I've just gotten back to the watch scene after 6-8 months off. I noticed that the traffic here died down quite a bit, maybe Doxa going back to be irrelevant. Bought my first Doxa Sub 600T maybe 8+ years ago then sold it for what I paid for, then I bought a 50th Anniversary 300 Pro which is truly the most beautiful Doxa Sub so I will keep it for life in my iconic Anniversary diver watches: 50th Anniversary Submariner, 50th Anniversary Sea Dweller, 50th Anniversary Seiko Tuna, then this 50th Anniversary Sub 300. Maybe I've done buying Doxa Sub but these watch are fun, Gotta give credit to Rick who actually listened to collectors and give them what they wanted. Life goes on


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## nitron135 (Jul 6, 2017)

Thanks for the story Henki, much appreciate the behind the scenes.


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## King_Neptune (Mar 3, 2015)

nitron135 said:


> Thanks for the story Henki, much appreciate the behind the scenes.


+1


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## Kirkawall (Mar 28, 2015)

qa_ii said:


> +1


+ 2. This is not an unfamiliar tale, unfortunately. Here's to a happy ending.


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## pkrshang (Aug 28, 2017)

Henki said:


> So, a long time ago (2007-2010) I worked for Rick and helped represent DOXA. I would like to take this opportunity to try and dispel some misconceptions that seem to be out there. First and foremost, the Jenny family owned DOXA, and still own DOXA now. There was not a change of ownership. We in North America under Rick Marei had the rights to the DOXA SUB. This is why you generally did not see any of the rest of the DOXA collection with very, very few exceptions. The Jenny's then and even up to a few years ago were not really interested in doing much with the SUB, because Rick did well with it, and they didn't really have to do too much to get benefit from it, it was just gravy. Their main markets had been in Eastern Europe and over time have shifted to China in terms of sales, etc. And DOXA was (and is) just one of their interests in the watch business.
> 
> While I appreciate that there are a lot of different perceptions about what was, and what is now, there are some fairly basic realities that seem to get glossed over - Rick Marei was pretty much single handedly responsible for the SUB as most of us know it through its rebirth and development. His desire to bring it back, his money to fund it, his creation of this still thriving DOXA Forum. But in fairness, a Jenny family member was involved in the very first re-edition (Peter, I believe), who then left the family business (Walca) to pursue his own interests in fashion). But it is also important to understand that the Jenny's owned (and as far as I know still own) DOXA. For whatever reason (and yes I do know, but it is not my place to divulge the details), they decided that they wanted to have control of the brand in its entirety - and that included the SUB. They did hire a new CEO about 2 years ago who had worked for other Swiss brands and also had connections in the US. I would assume that from his perspective, his thought process was something like - "how hard could it be to make and sell watches online?" Well, as you all are learning now - not so easy. But more specifically, he felt that DOXA was bigger than just direct, that it should be in stores. While there are now retail partnerships out there (and yes, I worked on the ill-fated partnerships with Feldmar and Topper in California nearly 14 years ago now), it remains to be seen how well those are going to do even in the mid-term. Ironically, the more traditional retail and wholesale market is something that the Jennys and the current CEO of DOXA understand quite well. It is the direct to consumer model that they are challenged getting their heads around.
> 
> ...


I heard your podcast on this topic as well, thanks for chipping in! It is to the benefit of all fans that this new leadership succeeds regardless of past politics and emotions. I guess only time will tell!


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## Henki (Oct 23, 2010)

pkrshang said:


> I heard your podcast on this topic as well, thanks for chipping in! It is to the benefit of all fans that this new leadership succeeds regardless of past politics and emotions. I guess only time will tell!


Oh, so you were the 1 listener ; )

Be well -


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

Henki said:


> Oh, so you were the 1 listener ; )
> 
> Be well -


Have you got a link to the podcast? I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in listening to it. Thanks


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## Loevhagen (Dec 15, 2013)

@KAS118 Here?









The DOXA SUB - Change is Inevitable from Henki Time


Listen to Henki Time episodes free, on demand. This past week an official announcement came from DOXA HQ that they would assume complete control of the DOXA SUB. The easiest way to listen to podcasts on your iPhone, iPad, Android, PC, smart speaker – and even in your car. For free. Bonus and...




www.stitcher.com


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## drram1966 (Aug 11, 2014)

KAS118 said:


> I agree that, by the sounds of it, she could and should have been a bit more diplomatic - but out of curiosity was it the American or European office you were talking to.
> 
> You see certain European countries can be more 'blunt' especially when speaking a foreign language - so what comes across to an American or English person as being 'rude' isn't necessarily intended that way - so I wonder if that's part the issue?
> 
> ...


******
The woman that I spoke to on the phone was American... I called the American customer service number for Doxa. She was simply rude and ignorant when I asked for a 10% discount if I buy 2 1500T. 
As far as the Seamaster vs Doxa 1500T argument... once again, the Doxa is a great watch on it own merit... however, it's not fair to compare it to the Omega. As I said before, I actually own both watches and I don't believe its on the level of a Seamaster. If you argue that the Seamaster is not worth double the price of a Doxa because you don't get double the watch.... well, that's not the measuring ruler that you use when pricing a watch (double the price = double the watch). If that were the case, Patek and Audemar Piguet and Rolex would be selling at the AD for less than 10 thousand dollars because they are not 4x more watch than a Doxa that sells for 2.5 thousand dollars. I'll end this with "I'll just agree to disagree" with the Seamaster vs Doxa 1500T argument. That being said, let's enjoy our Doxas and lets keep posting pictures of them!


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

Loevhagen said:


> @KAS118 Here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks - I'll have to listen to it later 👍


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

drram1966 said:


> ******
> If you argue that the Seamaster is not worth double the price of a Doxa because you don't get double the watch.... well, that's not the measuring ruler that you use when pricing a watch (double the price = double the watch). If that were the case, Patek and Audemar Piguet and Rolex would be selling at the AD for less than 10 thousand dollars because they are not 4x more watch than a Doxa that sells for 2.5 thousand dollars.


Errhhh....the point I'm making is that:

just because something is twice the price - does not necessarily mean it is better quality;
just because something is twice the price - does not necessarily mean it is better designed; and
just because something uses luxurious materials - does not necessarily mean that those materials make it perform better for a given function.
As I've previously said, we all have out different priorities - so yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

(Love the Divingstar Sub 750T by the way)


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## Kirkawall (Mar 28, 2015)

drram1966 said:


> ******
> The woman that I spoke to on the phone was American... I called the American customer service number for Doxa. She was simply rude and ignorant when I asked for a 10% discount if I buy 2 1500T.
> As far as the Seamaster vs Doxa 1500T argument... once again, the Doxa is a great watch on it own merit... however, it's not fair to compare it to the Omega. As I said before, I actually own both watches and I don't believe its on the level of a Seamaster. If you argue that the Seamaster is not worth double the price of a Doxa because you don't get double the watch.... well, that's not the measuring ruler that you use when pricing a watch (double the price = double the watch). If that were the case, Patek and Audemar Piguet and Rolex would be selling at the AD for less than 10 thousand dollars because they are not 4x more watch than a Doxa that sells for 2.5 thousand dollars. I'll end this with "I'll just agree to disagree" with the Seamaster vs Doxa 1500T argument. That being said, let's enjoy our Doxas and lets keep posting pictures of them!
> View attachment 15465884
> ...


Man I love that Divingstar 750! Had a chance to pick one up and just missed out. Such a beauty.


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## drram1966 (Aug 11, 2014)

Kirkawall said:


> Man I love that Divingstar 750! Had a chance to pick one up and just missed out. Such a beauty.


@Kirkwall Thanks my friend... I might be selling it... chasing a Rolex Sea Dweller 43mm... haven't decided yet... If I do, I'll let you have first shot


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