# Good First Luxury Pen



## Au Hasard Balthazar

I have been thinking about getting a fountain pen for awhile now but have no idea where to start other than Mont Blanc. Who wants to buy a pen made by a watchmaker? :-d

Which brands should I consider as a good starting place? Are there any specific qualities or materials to look to distinguish various models and brands? Are there any good online shops or ADs? 

Thank You


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## heb

Hello,
There are many fine fountain pens. I define "luxury" in fountain pens based on their ability to write properly--good ink flow, sharp lines, etc., and a good company with a history. Based on that, I would recommend a Pelikan fountain pen; one of their middle or top models based on price. From my experiance, you have a better probability of getting a good writer with a Pelikan than with some of the other brands.

Good luck with your choice.

heb


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## aardvarkbark

I write with an Omas with a Bock nib. Google for e-tailers. Sign up for their emails to get discounts. Some post pens on ebay with Make an Offer option.


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## Skitalets

My first truly nice pen was a Waterman Carene. The nib looks a little modern, which I like, and I still write with it ten years later. 

I also have a Meisterstuck 146 and write with that much more than the Waterman, though.


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## Monocrom

Pelican
Cartier
ST. Dupont

All good places to start.


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## Kittysafe

Your best bet is to try out a bunch, start small, that's what I did... tried on a TWSBI Diamond 540, only $40 or so... nice way to get your toes wet without throwing too much money
at it... I had a few fountain pens before I took the plunge on a high end like the ST Dupont.

I can say without flinching that my ST Dupont is a magnificent pen I do not doubt purchasing in the slightest... it has inspired me with it's amazing feel and flow to get back into drawing, 
and I've been sharing those drawings with friends for a few weeks now... I've owned the pen a few months and use it to draw, write letters, take notes... the pen is a ST Dupont Defi Fountain Pen, medium nib, in palladium and carbon fiber... I highly recommend it as a first fountain pen.

Pictures below:

Whatever you decide... enjoy the journey.


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## Firmin

Depends how you want to use it. If you're going to be writing a lot I suggest a LAMY 2000. I have one and use it everyday, absolutely fantastic. It's smooth and extremely durable whilst having an extremely elegant design.


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## Kittysafe

Firmin said:


> Depends how you want to use it. If you're going to be writing a lot I suggest a LAMY 2000. I have one and use it everyday, absolutely fantastic. It's smooth and extremely durable whilst having an extremely elegant design.


I personally don't like the Lamy 2000 as much as the TWSBI Diamond 540, which is also alot less expensive than the Lamy.

We're all just throwing out opinions though and we all have our own tastes, so try them all out if possible and see what fits your style.


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## Kittysafe

Give me a minute, I'll post some examples of a few fountain pens...









FEEL OF EACH PEN and RATING:

ST Dupont - feels wonderful, fits the hand perfectly, 10/10 $500
Parker Vacumatic - this thing looks beautiful, the depth, a little small though, posted fixes that, not for all the time writing though - good signing pen, 8/10 $150
Eversharp Skyline - simple design, terribly small, demands posting, feels great all around writing, 8.5/10 $120
Namiki Falcon - great letter writing pen, i run out of ink on this thing quick from use, 8.5/10 $120
TWSBI Diamond 540 - looks solid, I like the look, feels good in the hand, with its unique shape, great all around pen, 9/10 $40 <-- bang for buck you can't go wrong
Lamy 2000 - feels neat, good size too, beautiful feel and flow, 9/10 $120


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## Matthew Jones

I'm also thinking about this as well.

Can someone point me to a good article that explains the differences in good pens? I also am having a hard time finding an American online store that retails, for example, the ST Dupont Defi Fountain Pen suggested in the thread. Any reputable online retailers?

Is this the one mentioned? (minus the trim difference, but writing wise)

http://www.amazon.com/S-T-Dupont-De...1&sr=8-2&keywords=ST+Dupont+Defi+Fountain+Pen

Also, how well do fountains write for lefties? Does the ink dry fast enough? Etc?

I'm sorry, I'm a complete noob. Maybe I should start my own thread instead of hijacking but I didn't want the top two threads here to be identical


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## Kittysafe

Ya that's the pen I have but in a fountain - my next pen will be the ST Dupont fountain in carbon fiber.

Reputable dealer for ST Dupont and others in the U.S.

Colorado Pen
http://www.coloradopen.com


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## Matthew Jones

Do fountain pens generally come filled with ink or do you need to buy some in addition?


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## Kittysafe

Matthew Jones said:


> Do fountain pens generally come filled with ink or do you need to buy some in addition?


It depends on the pen... for example the ST Dupont is all hand made and does not come with ink or a converter, but you can buy the converter cheap at colorado pen, that's where I got mine


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## aardvarkbark

Matthew Jones said:


> Also, how well do fountains write for lefties? Does the ink dry fast enough? Etc?


Private Reserve offers several of its colors in its Fast Dry formula, popluar with lefties. Widely available in both bottle and cartridge.


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## thm655321

I just bought my first fountain pens as well. I bought two, both LAMY, a 2000 with extra fine and an Al Star limited edition matte black with extra fine. I chose extra fine because I have large handwriting already and didn't want to emphasize it more.

I am a lawyer and write a lot and need a workhorse pen. I also don't like fancy/ornate pens and prefer "modern" design. So the LAMY 2000 fit the bill perfectly. I bought the Al Star also as a workhorse but to use when marking up documents, most of which are printed on photocopy paper.

I can say that as much as I like the 2000, the Al Star is an amazing pen for the money. If you just want to try a fountain pen, try an Al Star (or the cheaper Safari, same nib just the body is made out of plastic instead of the Al Star's aluminum). Cheap to buy/use and the different nib sizes are easily replaceable (my AD had a box of the various sizes). You can also find them everywhere.

It's a slippery slope though, because once you have a fountain pen, you start looking for good paper to write on. In my case I wanted a legal yellow pad, and I found the Rhodia #19 in yellow. Beautiful paper, although $10 for only 80 pages. Then I discovered the "R by Rhodia" pads, $13 for only 70 pages but wow is that nice paper to write on with a fountain pen.

Good luck with your search. In my case, I can't believe I waited this long to start writing with a fountain pen, I have been loving the experience.


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## Matthew Jones

I know this sounds stupid and cheap, but I'm trying out this Lamy Safari first to see what it's like to write lefty with a fountain. I don't want to jump into a really expensive fountain without seeing what it's like. When I get back from Afghanistan, I'm going to try to find a store that carries various pens. Although I imagine I have to wait to go to Vegas or something. Because El Paso doesn't have crap. Hell, they just closed down the last AD for TAG etc. No one carries Omegas either. As an example.


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## Kittysafe

Are you reading the replies to you, because that doesn't sound stupid, not sure why you think it does... I said to you on page 1:

*Your best bet is to try out a bunch, start small, that's what I did... tried on a TWSBI Diamond 540, only $40 or so... nice way to get your toes wet without throwing too much money
at it... I had a few fountain pens before I took the plunge on a high end like the ST Dupont.*


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## Kittysafe

On Amazon:

5X Rhodia Classic Black Notepad 6x8.25 Grid
$27.50

Not a bad price.


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## Matthew Jones

Kittysafe said:


> Are you reading the replies to you, because that doesn't sound stupid, not sure why you think it does... I said to you on page 1:
> 
> *Your best bet is to try out a bunch, start small, that's what I did... tried on a TWSBI Diamond 540, only $40 or so... nice way to get your toes wet without throwing too much money
> at it... I had a few fountain pens before I took the plunge on a high end like the ST Dupont.*


Yes you are correct, I don't know why I said it was stupid. Thanks for the advice. I wouldn't have even known where to look if it wasn't for your suggestion. It comes with blue ink so I bought the T10 black carts with it.


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## Kittysafe

Thank you  

Cartridges are nice because less chance of a mess, but I do buy bottles because less trash, smaller carbon footprint, and I find more opportunities for color choices. 

Let us know how your experiences with a fountain pen go! I'd love to hear how you like them, I'm still relatively new to fountain pen... I started out with my 
great grandfather's 1965 Shaeffer snorkel, fantastic pen, and now I have all the ones I showed a test for earlier... I find they really bring out my love for drawing.

Also I find practicing my penmanship helps me in other areas, such as typing believe it or not, and guitar fingering. I suppose it's not that surprising, any practice
that causes you to slow down, is helpful.


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## thm655321

Need the full size though, and lined not grid. Plus I wanted to find them locally (which I did but the R by Rhodia was hard to find locally) to save shipping and satisfy the "I want it now" need.



Kittysafe said:


> On Amazon:
> 
> 5X Rhodia Classic Black Notepad 6x8.25 Grid
> $27.50
> 
> Not a bad price.


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## Matthew Jones

Haha, I just switched my car to a Mazda MX-5, which probably has a lower carbon footprint, but my previous cars were all American Muscle powerhouses from Corvettes to Mustangs, so I think I've damaged the earth well enough lol.


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## Kittysafe

The grid works for me because I write music.


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## Au Hasard Balthazar

Thank you all for the tips and recommendations. I think I will try out a few pen stores in the area as based on their websites they carry all the recommendations here. I would like to see the options before I buy just the get an idea of my tastes.


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## Kittysafe

Good idea, everyone's energy is different, and style, so what works for one may not for another. 
I do enjoy the ST Dupont, Lamy 2000, TWSBI Diamond 540 a lot... the 540 was only $40 so it's
a great fountain pen to start with.

Let us know what you decide on


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## Kittysafe

I'd love to try out the Visconti Palladium Dream Nib...
like on this pen:








https://www.coloradopen.com/product/Visconti-****-Sapiens-Fountain-Pen-Steel/visconti-fountain-pens

Video Review:


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## Matthew Jones

Kittysafe said:


> I'd love to try out the Visconti Palladium Dream Nib...
> like on this pen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.coloradopen.com/product/Visconti-****-Sapiens-Fountain-Pen-Steel/visconti-fountain-pens


I don't know much about pens, but this does look and sound nice.


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## heb

Hello,
THE ONE thing I forgot to mention is, when purchasing a "luxury" fountain pen, for goodness sake, get one that fills from a bottle and NOT with a cartridge or converter. Because that would be like buying a Patek Phillipe watch with...a quartz movement; doesn't make sense.

People bring up the "convenience" argument concerning fountain pen cartridges. Guess what...if you are into convenience, buy a ballpoint pen. So that logic is stupid. No gentle way of saying it; right?

Good luck with your choice...again.

heb


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## Kittysafe

I always use a bottle, and agree 100%

I just bought this Visconti this morning can't wait to try it out.


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## D N Ravenna

heb said:


> Hello,
> THE ONE thing I forgot to mention is, when purchasing a "luxury" fountain pen, for goodness sake, get one that fills from a bottle and NOT with a cartridge or converter. Because that would be like buying a Patek Phillipe watch with...a quartz movement; doesn't make sense.


Hm. Well I tend to use mostly those with converters or cartridges. Mostly because my piston fillers take too darn long to empty once full. I like to rotate my pens around and having smaller capacity cartridges are nice. FWIW, I fill my cartridges from the bottle using a syringe.

IMO, the real "luxury" portion of the fountain pen is the nib. A piston filling Pelikan with a steel nib is not as luxurious as a gold nib Sailor 1911 that has a converter.

YMMV,

Dan


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## Au Hasard Balthazar

I will definitely consider this as well. Also will pen stores let you try out their products or do they just let you look? Would it be considered bad taste to ask to use a few? I would like to be able to get a feel of their various products to make a decision on a first purchase.


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## thm655321

Any good pen dealer will let you try them out and will provide advice. Try to find a decent AD that has been selling pens for a long time and wants to make YOU happy not just sell you a pen. There are lots of places that sell pens, but a lot fewer decent ones.

And my AD shied me away from Visconti citing build quality issues (even though he sells them for those who really want them).

In my case my I tried a LAMY 2000 fine and neither the dealer nor I were satisfied with how it wrote. He then ordered in two more of each of the extra fines and fines so I could try them all and pick the one I liked the best (the nibs are hand cut so there can be variations). He really wanted to make me happy, and that's a great dealer in my books.


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## Matthew Jones

I wish we had more dealers in El Paso.


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## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> Also, how well do fountains write for lefties? Does the ink dry fast enough? Etc?


No it doesn't.

If you're left-handed, you're going to need an oblique nib. Once you find a pen you like, ask if such a nib is available for it. If so, the shop will usually special order one for you.

By the way, yes; you can try out pens even in high-end pen shops before you buy. It's just an accepted custom that serious customers will try out a pen for comfort and smoothness of ink flow before buying.


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## Kittysafe

- took too long to post -


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## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> Do fountain pens generally come filled with ink or do you need to buy some in addition?


No, they don't come filled with ink inside. Though you will usually get a cartridge of ink inside the pen box, but not in the pen itself. Some do come with converters. Some don't. The converters are empty too. If it's something like a Pelikan fountain pen where ink goes directly into the pen body, yes; you will need a bottle of ink since you won't be able to use a cartridge with it. Those types of fountain pens never come with converters since you fill the inside of the pen itself. If you're buying a rather expensive fountain pen that uses cartridges, be sure a converter is included with it. Otherwise, you'll have to pay extra for a converter. And honestly, that's just a B.S. way of making more money off of a customer for something that should be included in the purchase already.


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## Kittysafe

Some thoughts on writing feel with my fountain pens:

*Namiki Falcon ($120) *- Can be fickle where ink won't come out and I have to turn the nib upside down... kind of a hassle at times, but when it works it's real nice.

*Lamy 2000* *($120)* - This pen feels better than it writes, there's a resistance to the nib that I don't like all that much.

*TWSBI Diamond 540 ($40) *- for the price I think it writes nicer than the top 2 pens, seriously... it's more reliable in the hand.

*1948 Eversharp Skyline ($50) *- Writes real nice, but the pen is a bit on the small side.

*1946 Parker Vacumatic ($150) *- This pen looks and writes beautifully, definitely a favorite of mine.

*1965 Shaeffer's Snorkel (Inherit from Great Grandfather) *- perfection, this pen is flawless.

*ST Dupont Defi ($500) *- I love drawing with this pen, it's my goto inking pen for art over pencil sketches now.


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## D N Ravenna

Kittysafe said:


> Some thoughts on writing feel with my fountain pens:
> ...


It kills me to say it because I did not believe it, but not all pens and inks go together. Some inks seem to be more forgiving and will write in more pens. Heavily pigmented inks work better in some pens than in others.

Personally, I don't see how this could be. But less pigmented lubricating inks will work better in most pens, whereas the pigmented inks have a more limited number of users. A lot of times, it is not as serious as your Falcon (of which I have two), but it will be there. The TWSBI's seem to be more forgiving. I kept my 540 with the real broad nib and J Herbin's 1670 (heavily saturated/pigmented red) for a long time, whereas my favorite Platinum limited edition with a mod'ed nib from a good nibmeister only liked it for short periods of time. Thing is, I wanted to use the Platinum as the cartridges have a ball bearing that can mix the ink quickly in situ.

Take notes and work with them. You'll have a great time with them anyway.

Cheers!

Dan


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## Kittysafe

Actually that is a great idea, I'll try different inks in my Falcon and see if one works better than the X-feather.

Thanks!


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## Matthew Jones

I'm gonna guess my pretty cheap fountain I just bought isn't going to have an oblique nib available


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## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> I'm gonna guess my pretty cheap fountain I just bought isn't going to have an oblique nib available


Likely not. But always best to ask. Sometimes it's different pen lines within the same brand that offer such nibs, while other lines don't.

As a lefty, you can compensate a bit by turning your arm at more of an upward angle to lift the rest of your hand off the paper as you hold the page steady with your right hand. This is fine for writing your signature. But for anything else, you're better off with an oblique nib.


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## Matthew Jones

Weird that on Amazon they sell the entire pen with a left nib (Amazon.com: Lamy "safari" Fountain Pen Shiny Black Left Handed Nib: Office Products) but I can't find just the nib. Hell, I'm deployed I'll order this one as well. See which one I can write with better...


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## Monocrom

Must admit, those Lamys are an excellent value.


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## Kittysafe

Monocrom said:


> Must admit, those Lamys are an excellent value.


I don't think I'd like the feel of that Lamy in the hand, the clip is overbearing, and I don't like that style of clip , too big. Price is great though.

In that price range I would recommend the TWSBI Diamond 540


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## Matthew Jones

Looks like a screw-off cap though, I'd rather have pop off...if possible.


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## Kittysafe

Pop offs:

ST Dupont Defi
Lamy 2000
My TWSBI Ghost Pen


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## Matthew Jones

IF I get the fountain and like it, my luxury purchase is going to be the Defi I think. 

I have been trying to do a Google search on how to fill a pen that doesn't use a cartridge or converter, and honestly I can't seem to find good instructions. Most talk about converters. 

I think I might have found instructions on Pelikan's website...seems like it's almost a plunger-type effect?


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## Kittysafe

I use a converter with my Defi and I love it. If you want any writing examples from me let me know.


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## Matthew Jones

Not necessary...thanks though!

Why use the converter? Someone mentioned that it was blasphemy to use a converter or cartridge, why?


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## Kittysafe

I don't use cartridges because it creates more trash and I just prefer filling from a bottle. As for blasphemy to use a converter I can't imagine why


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## Matthew Jones

heb said:


> Hello,
> THE ONE thing I forgot to mention is, when purchasing a "luxury" fountain pen, for goodness sake, get one that fills from a bottle and NOT with a cartridge or converter. Because that would be like buying a Patek Phillipe watch with...a quartz movement; doesn't make sense.
> 
> People bring up the "convenience" argument concerning fountain pen cartridges. Guess what...if you are into convenience, buy a ballpoint pen. So that logic is stupid. No gentle way of saying it; right?
> 
> Good luck with your choice...again.
> 
> heb


I dunno either, just what this person said...


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## Kittysafe

Matthew Jones said:


> I dunno either, just what this person said...


Ya that doesn't make any sense to me, since you fill a converter from a bottle, heck you can fill a cartridge from a bottle too with a syringe if you wanted to...

I don't think it really matters how you fill it... I look at it this way:

1. Fill straight to pen = messy pen, dry ink inside lining of chassis, no thanks
2. Fill to converter = simple, no mess, works great
3. Fit pen with cartridge = more trash, bigger footprint, less color choices

Seems to me converter is the best option.


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## Matthew Jones

Maybe the person will respond and explain their reasoning. So with the converter, you just dip in the bottle and twist, or no? I'm trying to remember what I saw on Google when looking...


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## Kittysafe

Matthew Jones said:


> Maybe the person will respond and explain their reasoning. So with the converter, you just dip in the bottle and twist, or no? I'm trying to remember what I saw on Google when looking...


With the converter you twist it to plunge it down then put the nib all the way in the bottle, and twist the plunger back up, do it a few times to make sure to get any hidden air out.
Then just wipe the nib, put the pen back together and you're ready to rock n roll.


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## Matthew Jones

You've been a great help in this thread, thanks a lot. I hope I enjoy the fountain pens. Just got to wait for them to ship them to Afghanistan...although now I'm at the large airfield, mail is pretty quick here. Not like before where it took three+ weeks. But the shipping estimate was slow...


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## Kittysafe

Matthew Jones said:


> You've been a great help in this thread, thanks a lot. I hope I enjoy the fountain pens. Just got to wait for them to ship them to Afghanistan...although now I'm at the large airfield, mail is pretty quick here. Not like before where it took three+ weeks. But the shipping estimate was slow...


Patience is a virtue, put it this way. When I sent my great grandfather's fountain pen off to be restored, it took 4 months to get back. I appreciated it so much when I did though!
Enjoy your new pens, I can't wait to see pictures. And any time you need help, post away, myself and others enjoy helping others.

Take care.

~Jonathan


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## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> Why use the converter? Someone mentioned that it was blasphemy to use a converter or cartridge, why?


It's not blasphemy to have a high-end fountain pen that requires a cartridge or converter. Some think it is. But I have to disagree.

Using a cheap, disposable, plastic, cartridge ... Okay, for many; not exactly a feeling of high-end. Just use the converter in such a case. Some of which can be quite pricey when you get into the high-end brands. (You can refill an empty cartridge. Just grab a diabetic syringe, slowly fill it up from an ink bottle, and then slowly inject ink into the empty cartridge. Has to be at a snail's pace to avoid air-bubbles.)

Don't overlook a quality pen that you like simply because it uses cartridges or a converter vs. being a piston filler.

It's the equivalent to the whole in-house movement thing being automatically better than a watch with a modified ETA movement. Is in-house always better? No. Is a modified ETA movement always less than luxury? No. It honestly depends on which watch models are being compared side-by-side. Same thing with pens.


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## Therightadvisor

Monocrom said:


> It's not blasphemy to have a high-end fountain pen that requires a cartridge or converter. Some think it is. But I have to disagree.
> 
> Using a cheap, disposable, plastic, cartridge ... Okay, for many; not exactly a feeling of high-end. Just use the converter in such a case. Some of which can be quite pricey when you get into the high-end brands. (You can refill an empty cartridge. Just grab a diabetic syringe, slowly fill it up from an ink bottle, and then slowly inject ink into the empty cartridge. Has to be at a snail's pace to avoid air-bubbles.)
> 
> Don't overlook a quality pen that you like simply because it uses cartridges or a converter vs. being a piston filler.
> 
> It's the equivalent to the whole in-house movement thing being automatically better than a watch with a modified ETA movement. Is in-house always better? No. Is a modified ETA movement always less than luxury? No. It honestly depends on which watch models are being compared side-by-side. Same thing with pens.


This.

While I agree that there is something to be had for a piston filling mechanism over a cartridge/converter style, it makes no difference in the writing experience&#8230;.the main advantage to fountain pens.

The comparison to an automatic/quartz watch is apples to oranges. You pay top dollar for a high end watch because of the intricacies of the movement, brand, history, and design. While those are important factors when considering a fountain pen, the most important factor is the nib, feed, and writing assembly. That's what makes a great writing instrument. Essentially, a fountain pen offers a different writing experience than a ballpoint/rollerball. If you truly were a purist, you'd be pushing dip pens or even quills.

If you wanted to compare apples to apples, a quartz watch would be the equivalent of a steel/iridium nib while an automatic would be the equivalent of a solid gold nib. Both perform the same function, but one offers a higher level of quality.

I am a big Montblanc collector. I own five 149s, four 146s, but also 8-10 cartridge fillers. Each serves a different purpose and provides its own unique writing experience&#8230;..again, the main importance of fountain pens.

A bit of personal advice on filling: I too own a syringe for refilling cartridges, but only for my vintage pens that utilize a cartridge that is no longer available. Montblanc is one of the higher end brands within the pen world, and a box of refills still only runs $4. Even their converters are only $10-12.


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## D N Ravenna

Therightadvisor said:


> ...If you wanted to compare apples to apples, a quartz watch would be the equivalent of a steel/iridium nib while an automatic would be the equivalent of a solid gold nib. Both perform the same function, but one offers a higher level of quality...


If I am not mistaken, and please correct me if I am wrong, all current FPs have an iridium tipped nib. The stainless steel or gold body that is tipped provides the different feeling. Iridium wears well and can be sculpted by nib meisters.

Hope I am not out of line,
Dan


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## Seele

Dan, you certainly are not out of line, with the exception of the lowest-end pens, all nibs are "iridium tipped". But: just to be accurate, the tipping material used these days is not always iridium, but could be an alloy formulated for resistance against frictional wear. They also come in several different grades as well, for use on nibs at different price points.

Regarding converter, I do want to say a few words. What can be considered the first commercially successful fountain pen using pre-filled ink cartridges was designed by Eversharp, who was acquired by Parker before it could be produced. Parker inherited the design and manufactured it as the Parker 45... the rest is history. For a very small sum, this cartridge-filled pen can be _converted_ to a regular self-filling pen by replacing the cartridge with a _converter_, hence the name. I do try not to correct every time I see a writer who calls the ink filling mechanism of any pen a "converter"!

Therefore, by its very nature, it does not make sense to fill the converter and then stick it behind the section, either by the converter's own filling mechanism or by dropping ink into it. The converter is meant to stay with the section, as the whole thing has been converted to an ordinary pen with built-in filling mechanism.

I can understand why some people tend to look down on cartridge/converter pens: they are mechanically simple, much more so than even a bulb filler like the cooking Hero 616. I guess I have strayed too far off topic now: normal programming will resume presently.


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## Therightadvisor

D N Ravenna said:


> If I am not mistaken, and please correct me if I am wrong, all current FPs have an iridium tipped nib. The stainless steel or gold body that is tipped provides the different feeling. Iridium wears well and can be sculpted by nib meisters.
> 
> Hope I am not out of line,
> Dan


I was referring to the nibs specifically marked as steel or "iridium point." Generally, although not always (apparently I need to choose my words more wisely) steel nibs are regarded as being more stiff than a gold nib. Vintage gold nibs are also notorious for being more "flexible." It provides a very personalized writing experience that differs from other pens. Modern gold nibs take some time to "break in" and are generally stiffer, but many still offer a better writing experience (the point I was attempting to make).



Seele said:


> Dan, you certainly are not out of line, with the exception of the lowest-end pens, all nibs are "iridium tipped". But: just to be accurate, the tipping material used these days is not always iridium, but could be an alloy formulated for resistance against frictional wear. They also come in several different grades as well, for use on nibs at different price points.
> 
> Regarding converter, I do want to say a few words. What can be considered the first commercially successful fountain pen using pre-filled ink cartridges was designed by Eversharp, who was acquired by Parker before it could be produced. Parker inherited the design and manufactured it as the Parker 45... the rest is history. For a very small sum, this cartridge-filled pen can be _converted_ to a regular self-filling pen by replacing the cartridge with a _converter_, hence the name. I do try not to correct every time I see a writer who calls the ink filling mechanism of any pen a "converter"!
> 
> Therefore, by its very nature, it does not make sense to fill the converter and then stick it behind the section, either by the converter's own filling mechanism or by dropping ink into it. The converter is meant to stay with the section, as the whole thing has been converted to an ordinary pen with built-in filling mechanism.
> 
> I can understand why some people tend to look down on cartridge/converter pens: they are mechanically simple, much more so than even a bulb filler like the cooking Hero 616. I guess I have strayed too far off topic now: normal programming will resume presently.


While I see your point, certain words and phrases have become more socially acceptable. If someone were to call a pen a "converter" filler, it would technically be incorrect, but we'd all know what they meant. "cartridge filler," "converter filler," and "C/C Filler" are all widely accepted ways to describe a pen.

A perfect example of a socially accepted word/phrase that is almost always incorrectly used is the word "comprise." I'd dare to say that 99% of people do not know how to use it correctly. 
Incorrect: The United States is comprised of 50 states.
Correct: 50 States comprise the United States

"Comprise" does not mean "is made up of" but rather "contains"


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## Kittysafe

If you are looking for a luxury pen, I cannot recommend higher than the ST Dupont Defi Resin or Carbon Fiber in medium point nib.
This pen is amazing, I love how it feels, how it writes, fills, a classy, beautiful, handmade, delicate and strong pen that works beautifully with
any ink I've thrown at it. The resin version is the one I own, and it was around $350+ USD, and the carbon fiber is a bit more.


----------



## Mike_Dowling

Lamy 2000
Pelikan M800 (last pen you'll ever buy)
Cheaper, but quite a nice pen TWSBI 580


----------



## Kittysafe

Mike_Dowling said:


> Lamy 2000
> Pelikan M800 (last pen you'll ever buy)
> Cheaper, but quite a nice pen TWSBI 580


I wouldn't call any of those luxury pens except the Pelikan M800. They're decent mid-range pens, but not luxury pens. I consider luxury pens to be extravagant, possibly hand made, with precious metals, and pricey...

Luxury Pens IMHO:

ST Dupont
Mont Blanc
Omas
Montegrappa

Etc... that range, where rhodium, paladium, precious resins, hand crafted, $300 minimum price tag


----------



## Mike_Dowling

Kittysafe said:


> I wouldn't call any of those luxury pens except the Pelikan M800. They're decent mid-range pens, but not luxury pens. I consider luxury pens to be extravagant, possibly hand made, with precious metals, and pricey...
> 
> Luxury Pens IMHO:
> 
> ST Dupont
> Mont Blanc
> Omas
> Montegrappa
> 
> Etc... that range, where rhodium, paladium, precious resins, hand crafted, $300 minimum price tag


Lamy has a 14 K nib with paladium coating, Omas, Montegrappa etc... don't even make their own nib, they're just casings with a bock nib, hard for me to class them as anything but overpriced fashion pens. The OP also asked for a good first luxury pen, therefore I assumed $500 pens were probably not reasonable for a first luxury pen. Your average pen is about 50 cents so a $50.00 pen (TWSBI) could definitely be considered a luxury pen. Not sure I agree with a +/- $300 cut off.

[email protected] "precious resins" that's too much.


----------



## Kittysafe

Not trying to argue with you here, we all define things differently, especially when using such relative terms.

Lamy 2000 is $120, Namiki Falcon is in that category, mid-price range. 
Luxury though means something expensive or hard to obtain... and though these are relative terms, I still wouldn't cosider
them luxury pens. 

They're decent pens though... now if he wants a decent first fountain pen I'd recommend:

TWSBI Diamond 540
Vintage Parker Vacumatic
Lamy 2000
Namiki Falcon 

But for Luxury I'd recommend:

ST Dupont Defi - hands down this pen is a luxury pen, hand made in palladium, the pen is stunning and writes beautifully.


----------



## Deathstroke

Luxury pens are all about the complete experience from the way it writes to its aesthetics, in house manufacture and _status_. There is also a big difference between visions in companies - one whose aims is to create a good affordable writing instrument or the other could be to make a flawless piece that appeals aesthetically and perform in its own class.

A quick run down:
*In house:* Montblanc, Dupont, Nakaya
Outsourced (mostly Bock*, Jowo) - some are more customised than others: Pelikan**, Sheaffer, Conway Stewart, Omas, Visconti, TWSBI, Montegrappa, Stipula

Of course, vintage pens turn the tables around. It's a period when companies make their own nibs. Offerings from Parker (51, anyone?), Sheaffer, Waterman, Conway Stewart, Onoto, etc are luxurious and respected.

* Bock is sort of the "ETA" of fountain pen nibs.
**Some say they have moved them in house again. I am not sure when.


----------



## Mike_Dowling

Deathstroke said:


> Luxury pens are all about the complete experience from the way it writes to its aesthetics, in house manufacture and _status_. There is also a big difference between visions in companies - one whose aims is to create a good affordable writing instrument or the other could be to make a flawless piece that appeals aesthetically and perform in its own class.
> 
> A quick run down:
> *In house:* Montblanc, Dupont, Nakaya
> Outsourced (mostly Bock*, Jowo) - some are more customised than others: Pelikan**, Sheaffer, Conway Stewart, Omas, Visconti, TWSBI, Montegrappa, Stipula
> 
> Of course, vintage pens turn the tables around. It's a period when companies make their own nibs. Offerings from Parker (51, anyone?), Sheaffer, Waterman, Conway Stewart, Onoto, etc are luxurious and respected.
> 
> * Bock is sort of the "ETA" of fountain pen nibs.
> **Some say they have moved them in house again. I am not sure when.


Pelikan makes their nibs in-house, they stopped using outsourced nibs from Bock years ago.


----------



## Monocrom

Deathstroke said:


> Luxury pens are all about the complete experience from the way it writes to its aesthetics, in house manufacture and _status_. There is also a big difference between visions in companies - one whose aims is to create a good affordable writing instrument or the other could be to make a flawless piece that appeals aesthetically and perform in its own class.
> 
> A quick run down:
> *In house:* Montblanc, Dupont, Nakaya
> Outsourced (mostly Bock*, Jowo) - some are more customised than others: Pelikan**, Sheaffer, Conway Stewart, Omas, Visconti, TWSBI, Montegrappa, Stipula
> 
> Of course, vintage pens turn the tables around. It's a period when companies make their own nibs. Offerings from Parker (51, anyone?), Sheaffer, Waterman, Conway Stewart, Onoto, etc are luxurious and respected.
> 
> * Bock is sort of the "ETA" of fountain pen nibs.
> **Some say they have moved them in house again. I am not sure when.


You left out quality.


----------



## Deathstroke

Monocrom said:


> You left out quality.


Ah yes, I just realised I left out the most essential part of the equation!


----------



## Therightadvisor

Kittysafe said:


> I wouldn't call any of those luxury pens except the Pelikan M800. They're decent mid-range pens, but not luxury pens. I consider luxury pens to be extravagant, possibly hand made, with precious metals, and pricey...
> 
> Luxury Pens IMHO:
> 
> ST Dupont
> Mont Blanc
> Omas
> Montegrappa
> 
> Etc... that range, where rhodium, paladium, precious resins, hand crafted, $300 minimum price tag


"luxury" is a subjective term. To some luxury could mean anything better than the free pens you get at hotels. To others, luxury could mean pens that cost well beyond $1000. Less than two years ago, I was using whatever cheap plastic ballpoint pen I had lying around. I "accidentally" bought a Parker 51 at an estate sale. Now, a "luxury" pen is anything that runs more than $1000. The point being is that even my personal view of "luxury" has changed.

For a beginner, I'd suggest a pen that will last forever, will leave room to grow if their interest increases, yet something they could keep after they become a collector. Most anything from Lamy, TWSBI, Parker, or Sheaffer will be a great pen to start with. They fit the bill on every account I listed above.

A $300 price point may be your personal view (and to an extent mine too), but there are plenty of pen collectors and enthusiasts who have collections that cater to the $50-100 range.

Short answer: decide what your budget is, what you're looking for, and then find a pen that will make you happy and that you would be happy to keep forever. You can't go wrong if you maintain that thought process.


----------



## D N Ravenna

Therightadvisor said:


> "luxury" is a subjective term. To some luxury could mean anything better than the free pens you get at hotels. To others, luxury could mean pens that cost well beyond $1000. Less than two years ago, I was using whatever cheap plastic ballpoint pen I had lying around. I "accidentally" bought a Parker 51 at an estate sale. Now, a "luxury" pen is anything that runs more than $1000. The point being is that even my personal view of "luxury" has changed.
> 
> For a beginner, I'd suggest a pen that will last forever, will leave room to grow if their interest increases, yet something they could keep after they become a collector. Most anything from Lamy, TWSBI, Parker, or Sheaffer will be a great pen to start with. They fit the bill on every account I listed above.
> 
> A $300 price point may be your personal view (and to an extent mine too), but there are plenty of pen collectors and enthusiasts who have collections that cater to the $50-100 range.
> 
> Short answer: decide what your budget is, what you're looking for, and then find a pen that will make you happy and that you would be happy to keep forever. You can't go wrong if you maintain that thought process.


While not necessarily my philosophy, there isn't much I would disagree with here.

Nicely said IMO.

Dan


----------



## Kittysafe

Rather PC answer, we all know it's subjective, and we all agree with it, why wouldn't we? There's nothing to disagree with, but we are talking about LUXURY pens, and not just any pen one happens to like is going to fall under that category... switching categories, imagine calling a Lamy 2000 or Namiki Falcon a luxury pen would be like calling a mid range Hamilton a luxury watch. I just wouldn't do it.

There's an eschalon of luxury, opulence, hand made, special care given, that exudes quality, and luxury.


----------



## D N Ravenna

Kittysafe said:


> Rather PC answer...


I am not sure about that. Personally, I agree with you. But there are those that feel that the Hamilton is luxury!

The we get into the finer points of life. To me, the nib on my Falcon certainly feels luxurious, but the body does not feel anything like my Platinum limited. The body in my inexpensive Sailor 1911 certainly seems to outclass that of my West German Mont Blanc. Nibs? Not so much.

I'd rather go with subjective than PC personally.

;-)

Dan


----------



## Kittysafe

I would too Dan, but again, this thread is called Good Luxury Pen, not Good Pen You Like.


----------



## D N Ravenna

D N Ravenna said:


> I am not sure about that. Personally, I agree with you. But there are those that feel that the Hamilton is luxury!
> 
> The we get into the finer points of life. To me, the nib on my Falcon certainly feels luxurious, but the body does not feel anything like my Platinum limited. The body in my inexpensive Sailor 1911 certainly seems to outclass that of my West German Mont Blanc. Nibs? Not so much.
> 
> I'd rather go with subjective than PC personally.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Dan


Hm. That's one too many personally in a short response. Note to self, cut back on martinis.


----------



## Kittysafe

D N Ravenna said:


> Hm. That's one too many personally in a short response. Note to self, cut back on martinis.


Two's not too bad, to imagine an eccentric overuse of a word, that carries the energy of a post, I'd have to say at least 5.

I hope you enjoyed my use of two/too/to in this reply.


----------



## Mike_Dowling

I tend to think a Lamy 2000 is more refined and elegant than pens that cost 4 times as much. The Lamy 2000 has a 14K gold platinum plated nib, outstanding design, materials, and writes perfectly out of the box. At the end of the day these pens are plastic, call it "precious resin" all you want, it's plastic, the cost of materials is really a relatively insignificant amount of gold in the Nib, and plate on the pen hardware. The difference in material costs for a Montblanc 146 and a Lamy 2000 are completely negligible. I have a Pelikan M800 (great pen), had a Visconti **** Sapiens, and an Omas and I only kept the Pelikan, and I found the Lamy 2000 significantly better than the Omas and Visconti, I'll say it's the best pen I've ever owned overall.

An average pen is like $1.00, a Lamy 2000 is $120-$150, or 120 times the cost of an average pen, IMO it definitely qualifies as a luxury pen. There is no price cut-off IMO because if Montblanc made a model like the Lamy 2000 they could charge $400 or more for it easily.


----------



## Kittysafe

Out of all my fountain pens, the Lamy 2000 is a very nice pen, I agree, but nothing I've used beats my ST Dupont Defi, this thing is a masterpiece, fully in-house, hand made, it's stunning to look at and to use. 
I would highly recommend it.

But I just wouldn't call a Lamy 2000 a luxury pen, because everyone I know has one. Which makes it more a workhorse than a Luxury pen.

lol... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Therightadvisor

D N Ravenna said:


> I am not sure about that.Personally, I agree with you. But there are those that feel that the Hamiltonis luxury!
> 
> The we get into the finer points of life. To me, the nib on my Falcon certainlyfeels luxurious, but the body does not feel anything like my Platinum limited.The body in my inexpensive Sailor 1911 certainly seems to outclass that of myWest German Mont Blanc. Nibs? Not so much.
> 
> I'd rather go with subjective than PC personally.





D N Ravenna said:


>





D N Ravenna said:


> Dan



I am objective with my advice and subjective with mytaste. Hopefully, you see the point I was trying to make. While I understandand respect your opinion, we still have very little idea how much he's willingto spend. 
To someone who makes $30k a year, a Hamilton would be afine watch to own. I personally think that the Jazzmaster Automatic is one ofthe best watches for the price. Hamilton uses the same movements in theirtimepieces as other watches that cost 5x as much. Now to someone who makes $300k a year, a Rolex Datejust might be the watch they wear to play golf.
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine posted a picture of hisnew Michael Kors watch. He wanted to brag about the $200 piece of crap wrappedaround his wrist. To him, that was a luxury purchase.

My basic definition of luxury is something that offersadditional benefit beyond its essential purpose. Dictionary.com says "a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity"

I don't think I'm terribly far off base.


----------



## Kittysafe

I make $200,000 a year, so maybe that's why I consider an ST Dupont Defi a luxury pen, and not a Lamy 2000 or Namiki Falcon. 
But also the Dupont is hand made in France, it's art, with high function, clearly luxury imho. The carbon fiber fountain is $640 retail, I bought mine for $500.


----------



## Deathstroke

Luxury can't be determined by point of views (so far it never has been). There's a certain objective standard for luxury goods otherwise everything is a luxury since there are a tons of people in third world countries who cannot afford basic life essentials. Luxury goods are never meant to be intended for the general market and it will always be exclusive to a certain degree - it's also determined by the pull of supply and demand which retains its value.

The pens mentioned in this thread are undoubtedly good pens and their performance can be of comparison to the higher end pens but that does not mean it can be easily called a luxury pen. The Parker 51 is indeed a luxury pen - it was introduced in the 1940s with the basic model starting at $15 - 50 (taking inflation into account, that's around $250 - $800). That's pretty expensive and with wars happening getting a decent income wasn't easy.

I used to collect pens from Lamy, Parker, Pelikan, Sheaffer, Montblanc and Conway Stewart in all different price ranges and it truly surprises me when some people cannot distinguish luxury products from great products without the luxury element in them. At one point, I am even an AD for TWSBI (and you have to be trying too hard to call it even remotely a luxury product no matter how reliable it is).

I apologise for the rant. =)


----------



## Kittysafe

Exactly, while buying any pen may seem like a luxury to one person, I grew up on the street, buying any pen would be a luxury lol, but I wouldn't call that a fair definition of the word luxury. 
I believe the term has to be taken in context of the general public and not from the vantage point of an extreme.

Thus, I hold firm to my original post.

TWSBI is a good working pen. A step up is the mid range pens like Lamy, Namiki, and then you get luxury pens: Mont Blanc, St Dupont, then you have extravagant pens like Montegrappa, Omas, there's many pens that might be difficult to categorize.


----------



## Monocrom

Kittysafe said:


> I make $200,000 a year, so maybe that's why I consider an ST Dupont Defi a luxury pen, and not a Lamy 2000 or Namiki Falcon.


I don't consider those pens luxury either. One aspect that sometimes seems to be glossed over is that simply because someone thinks an inexpensive pen is "luxury," really doesn't make it so. It's just their belief that it's a luxury writing instrument. One good way to tell which category pens, watches, and pretty much everything else falls into is to look at the upper-end of the price-tier. No, quality and luxury cannot be measured by price-tag alone. But pricing tiers give a good baseline to work off of.

For example, $3,000 for a luxury watch will get you quite a good one (depending on the model). However, that same $3,000 will get you the absolute highest-end titanium custom-made flashlight. $165 will get you a Seiko SKX007 from a Grey-market online shop. That same $165 will get you a top quality, slightly older, LED SureFire light. No knowledgeable individual would say a 007 at that price is overpriced. Not when the upper-end of the watch world has models selling for as much as a giant house. Yet, plenty complain that the same $165 applied to a flashlight is terribly overpriced. (Main reason is that they're looking at the absolute upper-end of what you can get in that world.)

A guy who is used to using free pens with various bits of business advertising printed on the barrel, to him; a $9 stainless steel Parker Jotter will seem like a luxury pen. Doesn't mean it is though. Just means that to him, it is. If that same individual became knowledgeable about pens, about what's out there (especially at the upper-end); he'd no longer realistically consider that S.S. Jotter to be a luxury pen. Even if he never buys a Top End Parker, or a Pelikan, or a Limited Edition Montblanc.


----------



## Kittysafe

*I'd say there's a few categories:

Standard/Workhorse: $00-$49

*Bic
Pilot
Uni-Ball*

Mid Range: $50-$249

*Namiki
Lamy*

Luxury: $250-$749

*S.T. Dupont
Delta*

High Luxury: $750-$1999

*Mont Blanc*

Extravagant: $2000-$50,000

*Omas
Montegrappa


----------



## Mike_Dowling

You can get Omas pens for significantly lower than $2000.

Based on the criteria in this thread I'm not sure I would rate ST Dupont Defi in the luxury market of fountain pens. If luxury is difficult to obtain, very expensive, then that significantly limits the brands, probably starting at your $800 Montblancs, but probably more like your $1000-$2000+ pens. $300-$500 is pretty easily attainable by people who are not in the "luxury market", I'm not wealthy and had no issues buying a Pelikan M800 and several other pens.

If we're looking at luxury by the criteria set forth here we need to move the marker much further north of $300.


----------



## oke

Mike_Dowling said:


> If luxury is difficult to obtain, very expensive, then that significantly limits the brands, probably starting at your $800 Montblancs, but probably more like your $1000-$2000+ pens. $300-$500 is pretty easily attainable by people who are not in the "luxury market", I'm not wealthy and had no issues buying a Pelikan M800 and several other pens.
> 
> If we're looking at luxury by the criteria set forth here we need to move the marker much further north of $300.


I had mentioned previously that I thought the BOMAPen from Mike Scherer's Inkling Pen Company was a luxury ballpoint, because he provided (in pretty "exotic" materials, to boot) a way for writers to have a more custom balance for their pen - tip-heavy, centered, or balanced more toward the back. I thought that was a "luxurious" feature that one did not often see in other pens at the time. Most pens come with a certain balance which may or may not have been thoughtfully considered during their creation, but Mike thought that it was a better experience if the writer got to choose the balance which made writing with the pen most comfortable for him/her. The BOMAPen was definitely expensive (I worked out a sort of layaway plan with the owner to acquire the multi-endcap set), and it is now pretty difficult to obtain because he actually only made a handful of them (so, they're a more exclusive numbered limited edition because the total produced is quite a bit lower than 8888...), so I believe in those terms, it was a luxury pen. Also, in terms of quality, Mike did a great job to ensure that the fit and finish of the various components was top-notch. There was tons of attention to detail, and he had a reason for nearly every aspect of the pen, so there was care and planning involved in its creation.

However, in terms of the "mode" used for the creation (and does anyone else think Parker's "5th mode" is a silly notion, since it's more like a felt-tip with a feature that goes around masquerading as a nib?!?), would you all knock the BOMAPen for incorporating a ballpoint refill (even if Mike believes the Cross refill is the smoothest of the bp options?)? In that case, then would you say that it's just a well-thought-out/well-designed housing for a workhorse writing instrument, and so it's just a dressed-up Cross and not a luxury item?

The thing is, I like that the materials used actually help provide some tangible functionality to the writing experience (getting the preferred balance), and I subjectively approve of that effort more or rate it higher than I (usually) do of the many colorful resin, lacquer, enamel, and acrylic-skinned barrels (to just name a few) of other pens out there. It's not that I don't recognize the workmanship, artistry, skill and quality of other pens out there, however, like David Oscarson's pens, while they may be pretty stunning, I don't see that the craftsmanship and design adds much value to the act of writing with one. It's more of an object to which I'd probably refer as "neat", and the "luxury" of owning it would be lost on me.

Are there any pens out there that, while some may call them luxurious, you'd see them more as superfluous? In a similar way, there are folks who some may think of as celebrities, but to me, they're just folks who do things just so they can stay in the spotlight...

Also? I wanted to share some screencaps of an article in a now-defunct (I think) Stylus Mag, about the TAG McLaren Audio pen. I happened to learn about that pen about a month late (10-ish years ago?), because, at the time (when there was still a TAG McLaren Audio), there was a site for them and they were offering to sell the leftover pens for $100 each. The reply was that the last one had sold just the month before - missed it by that much! Anyway, though I mentioned I tend to prefer luxury pens which provide some functionality to explain its cost, the TAG McLaren Audio promo pen was fun just for all of the thought put into its creation... Anyway, the link to see it follows: j.mp/TAGMcLarenAudioPen_StylusMagFebMar05

(about the screencap you can see, of which the following is a thumbnail -







- when you get there, it says it has been removed, but you can still click on it to see the full-size image. Must not have been able to resize or something...)

So I'd say the first luxury pen could be exclusive and expensive (possibly > $300), but 16 years ago, I would've put the rotring 600 series triopen in that category, just because $57 was a lot to a poor student. That was the first "nice" pen I got, and I think it spoiled me in terms of its quality...

Huh. Just ramblin' - I suppose I can come back and actually answer the OP's queries later...

b-)


----------



## Matthew Jones

So here's a stupid question for the lazy of us...

I'm looking at the Montblanc Maiserstuck Signature for Good fountain...

It has a screw-off top.

How much screwing is required to unscrew? I'm a pretty impatient person...is it annoyingly "screwy" or just a twist or two? I guess it could be asked of most of the Montblanc screw-offs, I imagine they are similar.


----------



## Monocrom

Honestly ... Not much screwing involved. Though the fine threads involved do mean you have to baby such pens a bit.


----------



## Matthew Jones

Can you elaborate?


----------



## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> Can you elaborate?


If you over-tighten the cap, forget stripping the threads; you'll break them. Since the threads on these pens are literally all that holds the cap in place in the closed position, breaking the very fine threads leads to a pen that is now useless for carrying around and difficult to store properly. If a fountain pen, you now have a very expensive dip pen sitting on your desk that'll require cleaning the nib after every use. And, carefully placing on the desk so it doesn't roll off. I honestly don't know if such threads can be fixed after being broken.

You have to be very gentle when screwing the cap into place. Being sure not to over-tighten. Though if you don't tighten the cap down properly, it can unscrew itself from the pen barrel. Generally speaking, it can take as little as 1 1/2 or 2 twists before the cap is fully seated. That's not much. (On some pens, it's even less.) Very easy to over-tighten. A gentle touch is needed. Thus, you have to baby such pens a bit.

I used to have a Pelikan rollerball 600M with threaded cap. No issues with that pen at all. But Pelikan does an excellent job getting the little details right, and I was always gentle when screwing the cap on. Nothing inherently wrong with such pens. Just keep in mind that if you want one that is tough as nails, with plenty of durability built in ... Might want to look elsewhere than a pen with a threaded cap.


----------



## Kittysafe

ST DUPONT DEFI

RESIN and CARBON FIBER VARIETY
MEDIUM NIB

$400 and $600 respectively

My Rating: 10/10


----------



## stadiou

As the owner and user of many fountain pens I would strongly recommend a Delta Windows or other full size button or lever fill Delta as a good starter luxury pen. Exceptionally well made, tough as old boots but not particularly showy if well chosen. If you want simple, tough and stylish try a Waterman Carene or if the budget extends that far an Edson. The pelikan M800 never really cut the mustard - it is an adequately finished, ill balanced nail with dubious cap security. I would choose vintage over modern any day, the nibs by and large are nicer and a properly serviced vintage pen will be just as reliable -two of my regular daily users are a Senior Duofold Big Red circa 1927 and a 1915 Waterman 15PSF. I rest my case.

It may be worth your while to browse the offerings on pentime. Excellent choice, good prices and unbeatable service there - I'm a satisfied customer.


----------



## Matthew Jones

Monocrom said:


> If you over-tighten the cap, forget stripping the threads; you'll break them. Since the threads on these pens are literally all that holds the cap in place in the closed position, breaking the very fine threads leads to a pen that is now useless for carrying around and difficult to store properly. If a fountain pen, you now have a very expensive dip pen sitting on your desk that'll require cleaning the nib after every use. And, carefully placing on the desk so it doesn't roll off. I honestly don't know if such threads can be fixed after being broken.
> 
> You have to be very gentle when screwing the cap into place. Being sure not to over-tighten. Though if you don't tighten the cap down properly, it can unscrew itself from the pen barrel. Generally speaking, it can take as little as 1 1/2 or 2 twists before the cap is fully seated. That's not much. (On some pens, it's even less.) Very easy to over-tighten. A gentle touch is needed. Thus, you have to baby such pens a bit.
> 
> I used to have a Pelikan rollerball 600M with threaded cap. No issues with that pen at all. But Pelikan does an excellent job getting the little details right, and I was always gentle when screwing the cap on. Nothing inherently wrong with such pens. Just keep in mind that if you want one that is tough as nails, with plenty of durability built in ... Might want to look elsewhere than a pen with a threaded cap.


Ok that definitely nixed any chances of me ever buying a screw off.


----------



## Kittysafe

Just another reason to go with ST Dupont, no screw top, beautiful palladium, I love my two.


----------



## Matthew Jones

All - S.T. Dupont Defi Fountain Pen Black Resin

?

Do you suggest fine or medium point?

I forget do you use the converter or cart?

I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger


----------



## Kittysafe

Matthew Jones said:


> All - S.T. Dupont Defi Fountain Pen Black Resin
> 
> ?
> 
> Do you suggest fine or medium point?
> 
> I forget do you use the converter or cart?
> 
> I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger


That is my first ST Dupont, bought the carbon fiber this week. If you call Colorado Pen, very nice people, they will likely give you a deal AND throw in the converter free.
I got the carbon fiber this week, retails on Colorado Pen for $640, converter $11... for $600 + free converter.

I use a medium, and i absolutely love it, like my Omega SMP 300M watch... flawless items, I have no misgiving about them and enjoying them.

I use the pens for letter writing, signing checks, and drawing over pencil.


----------



## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> Ok that definitely nixed any chances of me ever buying a screw off.


Such pens are a lot like very high-end dress watches. You often pay a high price, but bullet-proof durability just isn't something you get for your money.


----------



## Monocrom

Kittysafe said:


> That is my first ST Dupont, bought the carbon fiber this week. If you call Colorado Pen, very nice people, they will likely give you a deal AND throw in the converter free.
> I got the carbon fiber this week, retails on Colorado Pen for $640, converter $11... for $600 + free converter.


I just never understood that practice. Not sure if it's being done by ST Dupont or Colorado Pen company. But converters are supposed to be free when you buy a fountain pen that requires one in order to fill from a bottle. Charging extra for it is just wrong.

Certain Nissan dealers have a policy of requiring a deposit before a customer can go on a test drive. That's just wrong too.

Certain items, are supposed to be Gratis.


----------



## Matthew Jones

Monocrom said:


> Such pens are a lot like very high-end dress watches. You often pay a high price, but bullet-proof durability just isn't something you get for your money.


True, I get that...but I also tend to be harsher on my products...to a certain degree. And I have big, strong hands and OCD, and I can see myself super screwing it. Not worth the risk...in my case


----------



## Matthew Jones

If I decided to get a rollerball or ballpoint Defi instead, do you think it would be just as satisfying to write with or close to it? I tend to write very quickly in the Army, and I have found with my Lamy Safari that I tend to catch the nib in pages when I'm trying to write fast.

Also, is a ballpoint better for me because I am left-handed? I read that:



> The primary difference isn't the pen - it's the ink. Ballpoint ink is oil-based and takes longer to dry than a rollerball's water-based ink, but the ballpoint ink tends to smear less during the drying process. If you are a person that tends to run a finger or hand over recently written lines as you add more, ballpoints may be the best choice for you.


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## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> Also, is a ballpoint better for me because I am left-handed? I read that:


Yes. If the issue is smudging, you'd be better off with a quality ballpoint.

As for satisfaction, it won't be the same with a rollerball or ballpoint. (Especially a rollerball since Pelikan is the only brand that knows how to make a good one. [Very smooth and consistent ink-flow throughout.])


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## Matthew Jones

I was thinking of a Montblanc Platinum Finish Meisterstuck Classique Ballpoint Pen 164....thoughts?

Also better for the BP over Fountain if you need to "whip it out" quickly, write etc without having to worry about how hard you are pressing, etc?


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## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> I was thinking of a Montblanc Platinum Finish Meisterstuck Classique Ballpoint Pen 164....thoughts?


MBs sell like hot-cakes. Though having examined numerous ones, I've come to the conclusion that only their yearly Limited Editions are worth the asking-price. Nothing wrong with over-paying for something if it's an item you _really_ want. (Just as long as you realize you're doing it.) If it appeals to you, get it. Honestly, much of the asking-price is for the recognizable little snow-cap on top of the pen cap.



> Also better for the BP over Fountain if you need to "whip it out" quickly, write etc without having to worry about how hard you are pressing, etc?


Oh yes, definitely. No comparison in that regard. Though in such a case, a ballpoint with a click-top instead of one where you rotate the cap, would be even faster. A click-top or one where the entire cap itself is the click mechanism.


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## Matthew Jones

Yes, I realize that, but hey we overpay for most watches too...well at least I do...although I don't pay retail you get the point.


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## Matthew Jones

It does say that this model (02866) is a twist top.


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## Mike_Dowling

Matthew Jones said:


> Ok that definitely nixed any chances of me ever buying a screw off.


Removing screw top pens from consideration basically alienates almost all the luxury FP pen makers on the market (or at least many of the pens). I've never had an issue with a screw top pen, just don't torque it down, many FP's on the market with screw tops are decades old with no issues. I wouldn't be concerned about a pen having a screw top, you can have an issue with other cap closing mechanisms just the same.

OP, I know Kittysafe loves his S.T. Dupont Defi's, but do not pay $600+ for a cartridge filler with a cheap converter. Just my opinion. Also that smooth metal base would drive me nuts. the only pen I have with a metal base was the Lamy 2000 and that's rough and brushed for a better grip, still took some getting used to. Definitely test out a pen with that smooth metal finish on the grip before buying.

For ball points just pick one you like the style of, I like Pelikan ball points the best. The Pelikan Souveran R800 (or 600 if you like them a touch smaller) would be my recommendation.


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## Matthew Jones

I understand for sure...I just don't want to take a chance. It's going in my Army uniform, I tend to rush, I don't want to take the chance, however small.

Stupid question, I know that a lot of the fountains don't come with ink. But do the ballpoints? I ended up buying the MB ballpoint earlier today, but now I'm wondering if I should have bought refills or if it will come with at least one.


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## Kittysafe

You can always go with the Harley Davidson magnet cap... those are really cool. I like mine a lot.


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## Matthew Jones

Thoughts on the ink refills? (the post above)


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## Kittysafe

Matthew Jones said:


> Thoughts on the ink refills? (the post above)


I've never had to replace it yet, but opening the pen up it has a Schmidt easyflow 9000 M inside.

A pack of 6 will cost you $4.26
http://www.amazon.com/Schmidt-Easy-...34978&sr=8-1&keywords=Schmidt+easyflow+9000+M


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## Matthew Jones

So unlike fountains BPs usually come with ink?


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## Skitalets

Matthew Jones said:


> Thoughts on the ink refills? (the post above)


Most BPs do already come with an ink insert. Don't know about the MB specifically.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## Kittysafe

I have never seen a ballpoint or rollerball that didn't come with a cartridge, my ST Dupont Defi carbon fiber fountain pen came with one, my resin version of the same pen did not.


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## Matthew Jones

Thanks everyone, I'm going to order some refills just in case on Prime (I'm so impatient, I'm having it all sent out here to Afghanistan and I'm leaving in a month haha), but I figured it would come with.


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## Kittysafe

Good luck on your new journey. Stay sane and safe


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## Monocrom

Matthew Jones said:


> I understand for sure...I just don't want to take a chance. It's going in my Army uniform, I tend to rush, I don't want to take the chance, however small.


For the Rough & Tumble, I wouldn't use such a pen. A fountain pen or rollerball with a screw cap is designed for more formal occasions. Basically, an excellent accessory for when you're wearing a suit & tie; or your dress uniform.



> Stupid question, I know that a lot of the fountains don't come with ink. But do the ballpoints? I ended up buying the MB ballpoint earlier today, but now I'm wondering if I should have bought refills or if it will come with at least one.


Yes, all ballpoints and rollerballs come with one refill. (Not to be confused with one extra refill. There's one in the box.)

BTW, MB is known for a rather frowned-upon practice within the pen industry. *Always* buy MB refills (ballpoint and rollerball) ONLY from dedicated pen shops. Those are the ones that get MB's quality refills. The refills that fail to pass MB's QC standards? ... Those are the ones that get sold in bulk to office-supply stores such as Staples, Office Max, Office Depot, etc.

That's why MB refills sold through those supply stores are significantly cheaper than the ones sold through dedicated pen shops. No other pen brand engages in such a practice. If any of their refills turn out to be sub-standard, they don't get shipped out. MB doesn't care. My manager at Coloardo Pen company ended up with a Limited Edition MB Czar Nicholas rollerball back when I still worked there. His quality refill ran out. For some odd reason he bought one at an office-supply store. (Despite knowing better.) Sure enough, a week later, it leaked inside his Limited Edition. You would not believe how much he complained about the effort involved in cleaning out the ink from inside the pen. Still, in his case; he knew better.

Enjoy your pen. Just don't be tempted to save a couple of bucks by getting a sub-standard MB refill from any of those office-supply places.


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## Matthew Jones

Thanks for the info...crap I bought the refills from Amazon from an alleged AD...because they shipped to APO...they were 10 bucks. Which was about what the website showed the list price was.


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## Seele

While the working part of a ballpoint needs to be factory loaded, a similar situation exists with most rollerballs, but as rollerballs can be understood as a ballpoint using fountain pen inks, there are indeed rollerball pens which are refillable: think of them as fountain pens but with a rollerball ink delivery system. Examples include J. Herbin, Noodler's and Platinum Preppy; the Herbin was designed to use pre-filled ink cartridges but there is nothing to stop you from refilling them.


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## walt hamm

I would recommend going to Goulet Pen. They employ people who take e-mails and phone calls from people who have questions and/or are new to fountain pens. Their customer service is superb. That said, beside brand names and prices you have other things to consider: Nib size (extra fine to broad), wetness (ink flow), size (length and girth) and probably a host of other things. Then there is the left hand writers which have issues that need to be addressed and that is where a company like Goulet can help.


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## OmegaGateway

Monocrom said:


> BTW, MB is known for a rather frowned-upon practice within the pen industry. *Always* buy MB refills (ballpoint and rollerball) ONLY from dedicated pen shops. Those are the ones that get MB's quality refills. The refills that fail to pass MB's QC standards? ... Those are the ones that get sold in bulk to office-supply stores such as Staples, Office Max, Office Depot, etc.


Is MB still engaging in this practice today?


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## zuckermania

Sailor 1911 Large... it's absolutely worth the money IMHO. If you don't want to jump in that deep at first, I actually really like Moonman eye dropper pens. Very easy to ink and clean, and surprisingly good writers.


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## ArchiMark

OmegaGateway said:


> Is MB still engaging in this practice today?


Don't know myself, but I find it hard to believe that MB would put their name on refills that are sub-standard.

Wouldn't that be a good way to lower their brand image?

Does not make sense.


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## slamwatch

Au Hasard Balthazar said:


> I have been thinking about getting a fountain pen for awhile now but have no idea where to start other than Mont Blanc. Who wants to buy a pen made by a watchmaker? :-d
> 
> Which brands should I consider as a good starting place? Are there any specific qualities or materials to look to distinguish various models and brands? Are there any good online shops or ADs?
> 
> Thank You


Wow, lol I am just now learning that luxury pens are even a thing.


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## ArchiMark

slamwatch said:


> Wow, lol I am just now learning that luxury pens are even a thing.


You're in trouble now.....

Next stop, down the rabbit hole....


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## slamwatch

ArchiMark said:


> You're in trouble now.....
> 
> Next stop, down the rabbit hole....


haha! I feel down it yesterday! Finally out of it. very, very, intrugung. I Think I may see what all the fuss is about.


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## ArchiMark

slamwatch said:


> haha! I feel down it yesterday! Finally out of it. very, very, intrugung. I Think I may see what all the fuss is about.


Ha!.....you think you're out of it.......

You're just beginning......


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## watch_mvmt

I started with a Lamy Safari and Kaweco. I consider my first 'nice' fountain pen to be my Karas Kustoms INK. Not traditional by any means, but a fine pen nonetheless. My most recent acquisition is a Wancher Dream Pen in Red Ebonite. As others have stated, it's a slippery slope. But you're already on a forum for watches and dippin' toes into the pen section. You know what you're getting yourself into. haha


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## belia

Au Hasard Balthazar said:


> I have been thinking about getting a fountain pen for awhile now but have no idea where to start other than Mont Blanc. Who wants to buy a pen made by a watchmaker? :-d
> 
> Which brands should I consider as a good starting place? Are there any specific qualities or materials to look to distinguish various models and brands? Are there any good online shops or ADs?
> 
> Thank You


A very old thread, . . . . but a higher end Pelikan has always been on my list.


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## ChrisQP09

Is Cross a good starting point?


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## dputydwg

If not MB, then Pelikan would be my first choice because I dig the piston filler


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## Smithsj716

Thank You for creating this topic. I’m in the same boat trying to figure out this whole sea of options out there!


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## trustmeiamanengineer

If I "may" , though these are gross generalization, I would look for following traits in a "luxury pen"
1.gold nib (14k at least, 18k preferred, 21k+ maybe too soft )
2.at least an option to use a converter, or even better, a plunger or piston filler. 
3.This has nothing to do with luxury, but I do prefer resin bodies or hard rubbere bodies.

If you spend $200+, esp. in grey or preowned, you will not have any issue find a "luxury pen", as defiend above.

With this aside, I find pelikans to be the "best" in the segment (personal opinion), with sailor (esp. when you have to write asian characters and prefer ef tips), waterman, cross, parker, shaeffer all good alternatives.


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## ryanb741

I own a ton of pens and what is 'better' is subjective but I can say that a pen without an outrageous price but that is well made, looks great and writes like a dream is the Sailor Professional Gear Regular. Just an all round super pen

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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