# single dial custom



## vuminhduc2002

Dear all my friend,
I am moding my watch

I will replace the old dial with my new bought dial which need to be printed my logo.

Do you know anyone who can help me to make a single dial custom?

Look forward hearing from you. 
Best regards,




Kenny


----------



## MechaMind

You probably know that pad printed patterns need a kind of etched "structure" where the color is taken from by the pad - there are several services out there but to pay the tooling effort for just one piece ...

all I want to say - 

-Printing your logo on an existing dial design is against the property rights of the owners so a commercial should not do this without getting into issues!

-such a printing pattern tool is rather costly for a single piece

-dependant on the structure and the quality of the dial, engraving could be an alternative solution .... but finally all depends on the detail and size of the geometry you want to apply!

Perhaps you may invest some more money and do it from scratch - than it belongs to your own property and you can add your logo to one of the printing tools ( eg. for the minute dashes)


----------



## utzelu

Hi Kenny,

I am in the same boat as you. I need to make one off dial and it is very difficult to find a workshop that would do it. So far the only response I got was from a Spanish dial refinisher (Danafi. Watch dial restoration. Watch repair and restoration. Watch dial refinish.Clock repair. Antique watch repair.) that can do pad printing. It is rather costly only for one dial but not prohibitive.

Let me know on PM if you need more info and keep us updated if you find an alternative.

Regards,
DanP


----------



## utzelu

Hi MechaMind,

Do you know of such services that can do custom pad printing for one-offs?

I am also thinking to design a small manual pad printer myself so I can DIY print. I don't think it needs to be so complex as the commercial ones and can do without the sliding tables.

Regards,
DanP



MechaMind said:


> You probably know that pad printed patterns need a kind of etched "structure" where the color is taken from by the pad - there are several services out there but to pay the tooling effort for just one piece ...
> 
> Perhaps you may invest some more money and do it from scratch - than it belongs to your own property and you can add your logo to one of the printing tools ( eg. for the minute dashes)


----------



## MechaMind

I know some watchmakers who in the past did padprinting for their own small series - but if they'd do for others ? you would have to ask ( but probably not cheap!) Second is that no professional would print a 3rd party logo on a dial which is not his or the IP of the customer who agrees to that! If you would like to go for a diy padprinter - better go for the sliding tablet and better buy the rails and structure preowned..... I think the machine is not the most expensive within this 
you need the "anvils" the rake puts the color on and the pads take it from ... those are the main point of cost for the lifetime of your machine if you are not able to process them on your own....


I never needed such a service, as I always design my dials for engraving process and e-plating as those are the processes I can perform myself and so save the tooling and the service costs... and even making a small 3d applique in brass and coating can ( without measuring the immense effort )be cheaper than a padprint if you own the proper machines (design and buying the same one made in service by a pro would mean about several hundreds up to a thousand bucks dependent on the complexity.... as e.g. Cador takes more than 100 bucks for one set of 12 simple polished dash applica)


----------



## utzelu

I think the pad printing machine would be the biggest expensive for DIY pad printing. A chinese manual machine will cost from 600 EUR upward (tax and shipping included). One pad should be enough for watch dials and paints are not that expensive.

I envision making a small manual pad printer, starting from a commercial small drill press. No sliding table, but only a fixture which will allow changing the template pad with the blank dial very fast while maintaining accurate positioning. This should make the machine much simpler to make in DIY.

Even for a one off dial you may still need to print it few times, for example to accommodate minor design changes, so using a 3rd party service would be expensive.

Regards,
DanP


----------



## MechaMind

If you make minor design changes you will have to always engage/ invest in a new pattern block ( etching is a non reversible process and the depth of the shape to print on the block is a kind of additive process and defines how much color is applied...# such a ground plain raw block is some ten euro but until it is etched it is about 100 Euro ( VAT ) now you have a machine with about 600 Euro and afterwards have 300- 400 Euro for just the patterns per ( here a chrono) ... so over its live the Pattern printer will become the cheapest part in the row ( same if you buy a DVD player for 300 Euro and afterwards have about 100 DVDs ( which accumulated will be over 1000 Euro) ... I thought about this ( I have the possibilities to do such a machine myself but decided to stay with my processes - the other way will not pay out!!)

Here I did some minute index but never used them since they look like dust ( one piece is 0.3x0.3x0.3mm with a 0.2mm X0.3mm pin at the end


----------



## utzelu

It really depends on the type of dials, really. I assume you are making more dressy watches where engraved dials are appropriate. BTW, would love to see more of your watches.

You are right about the running costs, but it should be relevant only when printing. What other options does a hobbyist have to make one offs then? I spent 2-3K EUR for a lathe, mill and accessories without any plan to recover the money. The pleasure I get from being able to make things as I wish or need is worth it.

Regards,
DanP


----------



## MechaMind

Of course ( I do it the same way but not just for the adaption of a purchased part - but this might just be a thing of time if the machine would be available) but on a lathe you would only have a few bucks for a chissel you can get from anywhere... ( even from a broken drill which is for free) on a router you will have to buy new one, but also for small money but on a pad printer each loop of improvement is to be made by a very specialized service...... For future and more sporty watches I bought myself an anodize lab kit for Aluminum which I afterwards will engrave and if it would be done low depth way might look a bit like pad printed. I hate lume, so this would not be a problem .....


----------



## earle

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the cost range would be to have 50-100 dials pad printed (white on black background) on a brass 37mm dial?

Thanks for your response.


----------



## MechaMind

Just ask at Cador to get an offer I think to ensure quality they also want to care about the dial feet the surface and the base coat . And 50 to 100 is a big range.....


----------



## earle

MechaMind said:


> Just ask at Cador to get an offer I think to ensure quality they also want to care about the dial feet the surface and the base coat . And 50 to 100 is a big range.....


Thanks so much, MechaMind! I really appreciate the info!!!


----------



## MechaMind

Another address in Germany is the "Uhrenteilemanufaktur" Peter Mannke ( I learned to know him personly as he supported two of my earlier projects with hands) is probably the less expensive one...

It is a German site but if you follow the picture of the dial it shows what they can do... and as I would expect this is exactly what you were looking for!

Uhrenteile-Manufaktur


----------



## igorIV

MechaMind said:


> Here I did some minute index but never used them since they look like dust ( one piece is 0.3x0.3x0.3mm with a 0.2mm X0.3mm pin at the end
> 
> View attachment 7335866
> View attachment 7335874
> View attachment 7335882


WOW! Amazing! On the 3rd photo indexes too with pins? What a technology You use, if it's not a secret? Thanks!


----------



## MechaMind

Its simply routing: Routing the backside leaving the pins standing

Routing an anvil with the corresponding pinholes 
sticking the routed stock into the anvil using CA and afterwards carefully separating the dashes ... than the polishing efforts take place

Those dials are much more difficult ( the width of the dashes is about 0.08mm) the structure of the Tourbillon cagee is about 0.3mm in width


----------



## igorIV

MechaMind said:


> Those dials are much more difficult


I saw your threads. Great works! My regards!


vuminhduc2002 said:


> help me to make a single dial custom?


Hello, Kenny!
What a dial You want - how You see at the final? What a watch, mov't?


----------



## vuminhduc2002

I do customs dial with my name.
Movement is ETA 2824 or 2836.

Dial size: 29 mm

Can you help me?



Kenny


----------



## igorIV

You want print only logo with standard indexes? Or You want personal indexes with logo on the sterile dial?


----------



## MechaMind

Use a Vectordrawing program or CAD / Adobe Suite / Indesign or Coreldraw or someway a CAD which can export DWG/ DXF in 1:1 scale. Then send this file to the manufacturer.
He will (let) etch the template and do the printing and preparance/ dial feet lapping/ polishing / basecoat/ laque for you - but as design belongs to your requirements, you might do this yourself or engage someway a designer. I think when it comes to effort and costs the dial is the most understimated part of a watch!
Just the design of a higly complex customized dial for series production including a first prototype + tooling can take days to weeks and costs up to 5 digits
( in your case the features sound quite reduced/ simple( B/W = two colors = 1 Printing layer) so if you would let print the dial at a service.
You may care about the design DIY, as you probably know best which look you want to achieve!


----------



## MechaMind

As I can someway see the hobbyist process of design as a piece for piece and step for step procedure - I would also suggest to start the design of the dial print layout after the decision for the environmental design elements is temporarily made regarding

Flat or domed glass

Without or with Rehaut

With or without applica

Which size of the crown ( sets accents on the quarter index)

Bezel / Lunette

Rim around the glass

Kind of date ( Daydate , just day or none)

What I want to say is that this elements belong together and would have to be evaluated together not piece for piece as you do not want a "Quilt design" / Patchwork but a someway whole appearance! of course you ma yswitch trough those in modular way and cross / combine single variations with others but the decision is to be made after the proposal of the whole thing is existent!


----------



## utzelu

For one offs be prepared to pay around $200 for a single dial print. You can buy blank dials for certain popular movements, already painted (usually white, black or silver).

Don't want to demotivate you, but you should think careful when making a custom watch. It will usually cost you more than a good, entry-level automatic Swiss watch you can buy (e.g. Tissot). So the watch has to have some special features in order to justify the cost.

Please do post here once you manage to do the dial as I am also in the process of making a custom watch.

Regards,
DanP


----------



## MechaMind

Yepp Dan - Thats direct to the point! Only way to be cheaper with a customized dial putting your personal work on the scale is to handcraft the dial! ( the traditional techniques are engraving, metalforming, grinding handpainting or enamel what finally would need a muffle oven. ) Newer techniques could be fabric and paper micarta , fabric laminates ( Carbon, Aluminium , Kevlar and Glass, Ceramic ) or textile techniques ( e.g. like the new hublot line quilting) dying or silkpainting.

Everything is possible and invention is just limited by the creative horizon of those driving it!


----------



## earle

MechaMind said:


> Another address in Germany is the "Uhrenteilemanufaktur" Peter Mannke ( I learned to know him personly as he supported two of my earlier projects with hands) is probably the less expensive one...
> 
> It is a German site but if you follow the picture of the dial it shows what they can do... and as I would expect this is exactly what you were looking for!
> 
> Uhrenteile-Manufaktur


Thanks again, MechaMind!!! Greatly appreciate the info and help.


----------



## MechaMind

I just tried several things - so to say an old modellers trick --- > about laser printer toner - It is graphite with a binding compound if you print a mirrored dial on a sheet of paper in ultra black numbers then turn it face down on a brass plate and keep an iron pressed ( heat***) on the paper for quite a minute the toner partially transfers to the brass plate - but the quality is quite far from pad printing -> would be good enough for a steam punk watch, but far from acceptable to commercial quality!


----------



## utzelu

I have one question related to the topic of custom dial making. Regarding pad printing, normally the pad template (cliche) is made out of a thin steel sheet covered with a thin layer of a special photo-resist coating. Couldn't the pad template be made entirely though photo-etching process in nickel sheet? This way the cost of making the template would be reduced greatly from around 150 EUR to around 30 EUR.

Thanks,
DanP


----------



## MechaMind

There several attempts - There is the laqued steel plate which will be processed developed and etched - there are also photoreactive polymers which can be masked processed and washed out ... ( the process ich a little more risky) 
I would think the problem would be the same - you would need a lapped absolutely plain clichee plate which afterwards is laqued and processed - so the main effort is the same just some Euro difference for the basematerial but same or just more costs on processing.... there are some guys out who develop potosensitive PCBs ( normally the depth to be reached by etching is about 25um ... the PCB copper layer is dependent on the pcb about 35 um upwards but I think there are also 20 um available ... you would have to mask the PCB but it unter UV light to harden the laque and afterwards wach out the not cured laque with a special developer! but I would think that the quality of the fiberglass carrier would be not the best for printing same with the planiarity as a PCB may have up to 3 % bow.. and the next is that the rough material will probably eat your Silicone cone.......


----------



## MechaMind

I now have my personal strategy... As I own a CNC Router I will try to lock the spindle and then try to allocate the Silicon cone there and use this as a pad printing machine! What I just need is a clichee and a silicon cone + ink! ... I have some ideas... lets see what I can get out of this!!


----------



## utzelu

There is a Czech small company (Hauler Ltd.) that does photo-etching on small scale and with very good, professional results. According to their website, a sheet of A4 nickel is around 20 EUR and there is no minimum quantity required. I haven't contacted them yet, but if true, then it would be interesting to photo-etch the pad templates.


----------



## Salamon144

utzelu said:


> For one offs be prepared to pay around $200 for a single dial print. You can buy blank dials for certain popular movements, already painted (usually white, black or silver).
> 
> Don't want to demotivate you, but you should think careful when making a custom watch. It will usually cost you more than a good, entry-level automatic Swiss watch you can buy (e.g. Tissot). So the watch has to have some special features in order to justify the cost.
> 
> Please do post here once you manage to do the dial as I am also in the process of making a custom watch.
> 
> Regards,
> DanP


Do you have any links or names for the companies that do one-offs? I can't even find those, the best I've found is minimum order of 100 pcs. But I've been searching for a place that can print a company logo (family business) on a painted blank. I was looking to modify a basic, generic dial such as a Parnis. I found some nice dials from Tourby as well, but they are a bit pricey. Open for additional input as well.


----------



## utzelu

Only two replied to my inquiries: International Dial Co. Inc. in US and DANAFI. Restauracion esfera reloj. Reparacion de relojes antiguos. Esferas reloj Barcelona, Espa?a. in Spain.



Salamon144 said:


> Do you have any links or names for the companies that do one-offs? I can't even find those, the best I've found is minimum order of 100 pcs. But I've been searching for a place that can print a company logo (family business) on a painted blank. I was looking to modify a basic, generic dial such as a Parnis. I found some nice dials from Tourby as well, but they are a bit pricey. Open for additional input as well.


----------



## timefan44

i was able to get my name printed on a base dial i purchased by finding a pad printing company. I looked for a bit but found one that was willing to work with me on one dial-the coast was about $150 USD so not terrible but of course not cheap..I recent was watching a video on Undone watches and they seem to print on dials with some sort of 3d printer.


----------



## utzelu

Could you please reveal the pad printing company that did it for you and what did u have to send them (e.g. CAD artwork)? Can you also post a picture with the printed dial?


----------



## vuminhduc2002

That is a good idea, mate!



timefan44 said:


> i was able to get my name printed on a base dial i purchased by finding a pad printing company. I looked for a bit but found one that was willing to work with me on one dial-the coast was about $150 USD so not terrible but of course not cheap..I recent was watching a video on Undone watches and they seem to print on dials with some sort of 3d printer.


----------



## Rauld

Can you also give us the link for the video you mentioned about the Undone watch dial.

Thanks


----------



## igorIV

I took an old dial from pocket watch Molnija ChK-6 ЧК-6(with sec at 6'), shot old paint, polish, painted and printed again new indexes to wrist version (with sec at 9'). Printed three times: 1 - gray ring (under hour indexes); 2 - hour and minute indexes; 3 - seconds indexes.


----------



## utzelu

Looks very good Igor. What printing technology did you use?


----------



## igorIV

utzelu said:


> What printing technology did you use?


Pad printing.


----------

