# Longines movement study



## thepoetboy (Jun 16, 2009)

Hi!
It's been a while since I got online.
Anyway I had a few past post about a couple of longines watches
two of which is 12.68z movement and 9lt.
I wish to know other great longines vintage movements that are known for accuracy, can anyone please help me on this topic?

Thanks


----------



## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

Oh god, where do I begin? First, I can tell you that from the late 50's through the mid-late 60's the Longines 30Z (production version = 30L) kicked the collective butts of most brands in the Neuchatel Observatory Chronometer Competitions of the time - even the revered Omega 30t and Zenith 135 calibers.










Longines manual wind movements are some of the best up to the quartz revolution of the 70's. Here's what they considered a midrange quality:










This is a 1966 caliber 370, yet it has chatons for the jewels. There's another post here about a 12.68N with a good picture of how well the movement is finished. Take a look at his pictures:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=372291

They made some other nice manual wind movements like the 23Z and 22L. Later they even made manual wind versions of their high beat 28,800 bph calibers in the early 70's.

Now, if you want to talk about their automatics I think they're the most underrated movements of the mid-20th century. This will save me from repeating much of what I'd type here since I already did a little write up on them:

http://www.watchtalkforums.info/forums/longines-forum/35800-longines-vintage-automatics.html

Just click on the movement series number you wish to check out. Any specific movement you have a question about feel free to ask here. I'll see it as well as the other experienced members. I'm sure you'll be able to get a good feeling for the quality of Longines vintage pieces by consensus.


----------



## artb (Nov 4, 2009)

Lots of fine watches are marked unadjusted. Really?


----------



## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

artb said:


> Lots of fine watches are marked unadjusted. Really?


Yep, it lowered the import tariff when they shipped them into the US. You'll even see Le Coultre and VC watches marked the same way. The watch this movement is in (a Diamond Dynasty) was assembled in the NY plant inside a case made by K & E:


----------



## DaBaeker (Jan 29, 2008)

ulackfocus said:


> Oh god, where do I begin? First, I can tell you that from the late 50's through the mid-late 60's the Longines 30Z (production version = 30L) kicked the collective butts of most brands in the Neuchatel Observatory Chronometer Competitions of the time - even the revered Omega 30t and Zenith 135 calibers.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=372291
> 
> ...


Hey there ULF-
What do you think about the cal. 430 Ultra Chron in terms of accuracy?

-I finally got the proper 'dry' lube [molybendum ds] so I was able to lubricate w/o fear that the added torque required for the 36,000 wouldnt be throwing off by cent. force all previous lube done by a watchmaker that didnt quite know what to do with this movment. I found this watch hidden among my fathers effects and untouched since '67 the year the watch was bought (I believe) and the same year he died. It seems to be amzingly accurate and consistent after sitting around for 4 decades.


----------



## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

DaBaeker said:


> Hey there ULF-
> What do you think about the cal. 430 Ultra Chron in terms of accuracy?


Hi Da. I think we had a brief discussion about Longines movements compared to Omega movements that started with your watch (on the Omega Forum a couple months ago maybe?). We did get sidetracked into which caliber was more equivalent to the Ω 56x series which took us away from the Longines 430 series. High beat 36K movements, regardless of manufacturer, are regulated to good accuracy because they have more increments per second (10) than the average 19.8K (5.5) or 21.6K (6) of the late 60's / early 70's standard movements. The trouble comes from the lubrication as you've noted already - improper lubrication will prematurely wear a movement which kills the accuracy by ruining tolerances, not to mention friction. Also, the rapid oscillation of the balance wheel means it will require a smaller diameter due to the physics of rotational mass. Smaller balance wheels won't oscillate as consistently as larger ones. (again, I can't fully explain the math). So it's a trade off, but one most companies didn't want to make due to the potential for wear at a higher bph. This is why most 36K bph calibers from Longines, GP, Seiko, and the rest didn't last but 5 or 6 years. Zenith is one of the few that still uses it. My personal opinion is that the 430 series is a big piece of horological history that can EASILY run within chronometer specs or better. I think they were even capable of +/- 30 seconds a month in their chronometer incarnations, but these are almost as rare as hen's teeth. I only know of 2 members with Longines watches with "Chronometer" on the dial. Tony C. has one that I believe is a 30L or 30Z from the late 50's / early 60's, and Eeeb has an Ultra-Chron I think. (already know how much Tony's watch is worth, don't know much Jim's is worth - and maybe I don't want to ask judging by the former's number!) Add the heirloom factor to a watch like that and it's a vintage cornerstone of a collection. I remember the dial too - kinda funky. :-!


----------



## DaBaeker (Jan 29, 2008)

ulackfocus said:


> Hi Da. I think we had a brief discussion about Longines movements compared to Omega movements that started ........ My personal opinion is that the 430 series is a big piece of horological history that can EASILY run within chronometer specs or better. I think they were even capable of +/- 30 seconds a month in their chronometer incarnations, but these are almost as rare as hen's teeth. I only know of 2 members with Longines watches with "Chronometer" on the dial. Tony C. has one that I believe is a 30L or 30Z from the late 50's / early 60's, and Eeeb has an Ultra-Chron I think. (already know how much Tony's watch is worth, don't know much Jim's is worth - and maybe I don't want to ask judging by the former's number!) Add the heirloom factor to a watch like that and it's a vintage cornerstone of a collection. I remember the dial too - kinda funky. :-!


Ahhh. So that was you. I do remember. Learned quite a lot from your posts. My (non-cosc) UltraChron is working quite well and keeping well withing cosc specs-as I said. The problem? Well its a bonus in some ways but in a style sense-I dont wear gold very much and mine is 18k. But I'vee seen quite a few photos of the assrtd. dials on the various Longines UC from the 60s thru the mid 70s. Most-in my opinion are pretty darn odd looking. Mine is actually plain white starburst face with gold applied roman numerals. Nothing too striking and certainly stylish enough to wear as a dress watch. Its just not my cup of tea-so to speak. I do appreciate it for the historical place it has in between the peak of the Swiss mechanical age and the advent of the electric balance wheel/tuning fork and ultimately the quartz which soon dominated all CH watch production.

And it sounds to me like you also-while having full respect and admiration for the 430 and what Longines was trying to achieve via 36,000bpm-place the UC in a catagory apart from Longines other movements that you consider to be superior. (in other words-as good as the UC may be-its kind of quirky, has a unique place and reason in horological/Longines history but can't be compared they way the other movements Longines was known for. -(similar to how that thread trying to compare cal 5xx Omegas to an L430 is too difficult to do w/o wild generalizations and overlooking basic physics and the mechanics of the movements)


----------



## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

DaBaeker said:


> Mine is actually plain white starburst face with gold applied roman numerals. Nothing too striking and certainly stylish enough to wear as a dress watch.


Maybe it was four of diamonds' U-C that had the interesting dial. :think::-s



DaBaeker said:


> And it sounds to me like you also-while having full respect and admiration for the 430 and what Longines was trying to achieve via 36,000bpm-place the UC in a catagory apart from Longines other movements that you consider to be superior.


I don't know if I'd call it another category completely, but I do consider a few of Longines' movements immediately before the 430 series to be much better. The 34x (particularly the 345 introduced in 1965) and 29x (introduced 1958) have rather large balance wheels relative to the movement diameter with normal beat counts and perform very well. My personal favorite is the 291. I think it's one of the most durable automatic winding systems of the 50's and 60's - right up there with the IWC Pellaton. Just good engineering but I discuss that in the last link in my first reply in this thread. Also, the 664x and 665x (introduced in 1972) were the same as the 43x but with a 28.8K bph. Longines only flirted with the 36K bph for 5 years (1967 - 1972) before pretty much giving up and reducing it to create these replacement calibers.


----------



## four of diamonds (May 12, 2007)

Maybe this one? I have a few Ultra Chrons but I think this is the only one I posted. This one is 10K RGP without a date function.


----------



## DaBaeker (Jan 29, 2008)

four of diamonds said:


> Maybe this one? I have a few Ultra Chrons but I think this is the only one I posted. This one is 10K RGP without a date function.


I like your UC very much. I tend to prefer simplicity and yours is a very nice example. Mine is not much difference in overall case design so I feel we're about even in that dept. I think its the newer models from the early 70s that I have problems with. But even with them-there were still a few really nice versions mixed in with the rest.

okay-here's mine -just because I don't have many excuses to show it off at all:


----------



## four of diamonds (May 12, 2007)

I have seen old watch catalogs and there were quite a few variations on the Ultra Chron, including some squarish cases. Yours is a nice looking example IMO. That being said, each person has their preferences. 

Here is another UC in my collection and like yours is 18K. Sorry about the crappy cell phone pic, but this piece is at the watchmaker for a COA.


----------



## DaBaeker (Jan 29, 2008)

four of diamonds said:


> I have seen old watch catalogs and there were quite a few variations on the Ultra Chron, including some squarish cases. Yours is a nice looking example IMO. That being said, each person has their preferences.
> 
> Here is another UC in my collection and like yours is 18K. Sorry about the crappy cell phone pic, but this piece is at the watchmaker for a COA.


Yes-another nice example. I think when they switched to the 28,000bph the designs started to reflect the early 70s 'chunky' designs (which I actually like to some degree in other brands-just not the Longines UCs I've seen catalog photos of) and at least to me-there were some real oddities.


----------



## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

ulackfocus said:


> Zenith is one of the few that still uses it.


Zenith are currently the _*only*_ ones who use it. (I.e. a 5Hz beat in their watches.) There is one example on my wrist as I type this.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## mmazzini (Jul 11, 2012)

Hello Ulackfocus
thanks for the precious information!

I actually do have a question about a Longines movement. I own a Longines Avigation Maxi LE, ref. L2.639.4.

It hosts a Longines vintage proprietary movement, the caliber L878 16¾-line (formerly Longines L550 or L37.9 apparently). 
Do you have any info about this movement i.e. pictures, sheets, etc.?

Small second-hand on my watch is at the 9 o'clock position. This just seems inconsistent the info I found on the web relating the caliber L878. For example, the 180-years celebration pocket watch recently released by Longines, has the same caliber and the second-hand is right at 6 o'clock... Does actually exist any vintage Longine caliber with 9 o'clock small second hand?

Cheers
Matteo


----------



## Treedocwatcher (May 3, 2021)

ulackfocus said:


> Oh god, where do I begin? First, I can tell you that from the late 50's through the mid-late 60's the Longines 30Z (production version = 30L) kicked the collective butts of most brands in the Neuchatel Observatory Chronometer Competitions of the time - even the revered Omega 30t and Zenith 135 calibers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi time wizard. 
I appreciate your information here very much. I've pulled apart a 370 movement from my Dad's watch for my first service. I didn't take enough pictures and feel like I need a diagram to help me order the wheels and other parts. I know I should have taken more pictures, I only took one. I won't make that mistake again. Could you or anyone Dave Brown me time and trouble by sharing a diagram or how to find one? Or do I just go in and figure it out? Any help would be appreciated very much.
Thank you


----------



## 707mm2 (Aug 23, 2018)

ulackfocus said:


> First, I can tell you that from the late 50's through the mid-late 60's the Longines 30Z (production version = 30L) kicked the collective butts of most brands in the Neuchatel Observatory Chronometer Competitions of the time - even the revered Omega 30t and Zenith 135 calibers.


Hi,

Sorry, some little corrections : the 30Z and 30L are two different calibers, the 30L actually had a version made for observatory competition with the same designation, differing from production samples by a "Guillaume" balance wheel and for some a higher frequency. The 30Z was an earlier caliber, with a bridge layout similar to the 12.68Z. During the time period covered in the table you're showing, Longines sent a lot of different calibers to chronometer competitions (other than the two already mentioned, I can cite the 15.68Z, simplified 13ZN and 30CH, the 30B and the 360 all for the wristwatch category, and for pocket and marine categories there was at least the 260 and I'm sure some others). I know some 10.68Z and 12.68Z were sent to the Kew observatory but not sure for Neuchatel. Among those calibers, the 30Z and 30L were not astounding performers (the 30Z was used in the early 1950s, right when Longines had almost no prize winning watches), only the 15.68Z and the 360 broke precision records in the wristwatch category, and of those last two only the 15.68Z was offered for public sale.



ulackfocus said:


> I don't know if I'd call it another category completely, but I do consider a few of Longines' movements immediately before the 430 series to be much better. The 34x (particularly the 345 introduced in 1965) and 29x (introduced 1958) have rather large balance wheels relative to the movement diameter with normal beat counts and perform very well.


Also have to disagree here, I'd personally stay far from the 34x series for an automatic watch, at least for everyday wear, as their winding system is just not very reliable in my experience (like many similar systems like the Patek 350). But yes the 29x series is much better.


----------



## demo (Apr 1, 2015)

Should be noted that this conversation was ten years ago and the member quoted is banned according to his profile.

Mike


----------



## 707mm2 (Aug 23, 2018)

demo said:


> Should be noted that this conversation was ten years ago and the member quoted is banned according to his profile.
> 
> Mike


Thanks, I didn't even notice !


----------

