# What is an acceptable loss / gain in time



## Manks (Oct 22, 2012)

I have seen a couple of posts that talk about how much time a Rolex will loose or gain in a day, I am fairly new to this stuff and was wondering what is an acceptable level of time loss / gain for:

1) a High End Mechanical / Manual / Automatic Watch - like a Rolex / Omega or other "quality" brand (I happen to have two vintage Omega's and one vintage Tudor)

2) a budget (read inexpensive or cheap) mechanical movement - think a $200 Invicta / Similar inexensive brand (Note: do not use this as an opportunity to slag Invicta, I was just using it as an example I know it is not the gold standard of cheap watches)

3) A good quality quartz movement - Seiko, Citizen of higher end

4) Timex Digital or similar

Also - what clock do you use to base your time from - what is the MOST ACCURATE CLOCK available?

Thanks, I look forward to reading the discussion.

Manks


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## PH68 (Nov 12, 2010)

For total accuracy get a radio-controlled watch from Citizen, or a wave-ceptor watch from Casio.
They update everyday so your watch is accurate.
Some work in one region (such as USA, or Japan, etc.), some multiple or world-wide regions.

Next will be quartz.
Most quartz watches gain/lose a consistent time daily. After a month your watch will be off by up to 10 seconds. Given you'll change the time at least every six months when summer/winter time ends, then after six months your watch will be a minute out at most.
A quartz will always be out by the same amount. (Thus if your watch gains 5 seconds a month, it will always gain 5 seconds a month)

Auto...
Who knows?
One day it may be fast, the next it may be slow, at night on its back may be different than at night on it's side etc...
Generally accuracy is about 5-10 seconds a day!!
Yes so that does mean it could be a minute out be the end of the week, or maybe 30 minutes at the end of the month.
But the next day or night it could be a bit slower, so long term it may balance out.
Then again it may not.

For the amount you may spend on a Rolex etc., you'll still find your cheap kitchen clock keeps better time.


Personally I like quartz.
I pick the watch up, put it on and don't have to worry about setting it, or how accurate/inaccurate it might be today.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

On my mechanicals, anywhere from 0 to +2 seconds per day on the wrist (I'm more relaxed off the wrist) is acceptable, although truth be told, I'd probably get rid of a watch that gained 2 seconds a day. 

On a cheap mechanical, I'd expect under 5 seconds a day on the wrist. Slowness is never acceptable. Cheap watches don't have to be inaccurate. My old Orient did under +1 a day easily on my wrist (was much less precise off the wrist for a day, but I digress). 

On a quartz watch, under 10 seconds a month would be ok. Any decent quartz watch is so accurate that I don't really care that much.

These are my personal standards.


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## gouverneur (Jun 7, 2012)

I think there's a divergence between CitizenM's standards for ownership and what one should reasonably expect to find (even for large amounts of $$$).

On an automatic watch, even a Rolex or an Omega will be somewhere in the +/-5 secs a day range, with this number fluctuating based on how fully wound the watch is, how you're wearing it on a given day, what position you set it down at night (crown up, face up flat, etc.), and even factors like humidity and outside temperature. Sometimes watches run fast, sometimes slow -- my JLC MUT Moon is currently running -1/-2 seconds a day after just three months of ownership, and I'm noticing that its behavior fluctuates depending on environment (was getting better results, e.g., positive time gain, in different parts of the country, but it seems consistently slow down here in Miami).

On a cheaper auto, they are often not as finely made and the maker will purposely set the watch way fast at the beginning of its life cycle (watches tend to slow down as their components wear), so I've heard of new watches in the sub-$1,000 automatic ETA/Sellita market being +20 secs/day, which is within specs and is not cause for an in-warranty repair.

As above posters have suggested, quartz/digital watches are almost always more accurate.



CitizenM said:


> On my mechanicals, anywhere from 0 to +2 seconds per day on the wrist (I'm more relaxed off the wrist) is acceptable, although truth be told, I'd probably get rid of a watch that gained 2 seconds a day.
> 
> On a cheap mechanical, I'd expect under 5 seconds a day on the wrist. Slowness is never acceptable. Cheap watches don't have to be inaccurate. My old Orient did under +1 a day easily on my wrist (was much less precise off the wrist for a day, but I digress).
> 
> ...


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## camb66 (Jan 25, 2010)

gouverneur said:


> On a cheaper auto, they are often not as finely made and the maker will purposely set the watch way fast at the beginning of its life cycle (watches tend to slow down as their components wear), so I've heard of new watches in the sub-$1,000 automatic ETA/Sellita market being +20 secs/day, which is within specs and is not cause for an in-warranty repair.


I would expect more from a cheaper Auto, my newest watch has the Miyota 9015 and it delivers a consistent +3 seconds day in and day out. I would expect to get at least +10 seconds from any auto.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Watches tend to run slow in Miami and the Caribbean. It is the slow pace of life you understand....

But I think CitizenM summarised it well.


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## Dancing Fire (Aug 16, 2011)

+ 2 sec per day.


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## BrentYYC (Feb 2, 2012)

Let's get real for a minute. A high end movement with a COSC chronometer certification (about 3% of watches made) is rated at -4/+6 seconds per day. That's as good as you can expect, period, with a Rolex or comparable high end watch. Most mechanical watches will be within +-12 seconds a day or better, and that's what's considered normal (or industry acceptable). Whether it's acceptable to you personally is another story, but even a cheap movement can usually be regulated to fall within COSC chronometer standards (but for how long it will hold that accuracy is questionable due to potentially lower quality parts). 

In comparison the COSC standard for quartz watches is +- 0.07 seconds per day, or about 2 seconds per month. Quartz is quartz is quartz.... don't expect any significant difference in accuracy between an Omega quartz versus a Timex quartz, they'll both be within a couple of seconds of each other per month.


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## Nom de Forum (Oct 17, 2012)

Perhaps instead of being concerned about what the acceptable accuracy is of a particular watch type you should determine what is acceptable accuracy for you. If you can accept the lower accuracy and higher maintenance costs of an auto/mechanical you will own a ingenious piece of mechanical engineering, steeped in history and tradition, and requiring an almost daily active physical relationship with you in order to function. A HAQ watch is for you if accuracy is paramount and low maintenance a necessity.

You can use WWV by short wave radio or telephone 303-499-7111.


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## iam7head (Dec 16, 2010)

It really depends, on my everyday watch I am more anal about time keeping. Both of my daily beater are COSC so as long as it's running no faster than 6 seconds I am okay.

Not all quartz are created equal, my casio is a race horse, about a minute fast per month. I don't bother to have it check because it's worth pretty much next to nothing and it's 16 years old, if it runs i am good.

speaking of mechanical movement, my seagull st19 chrono movement actually keep better time than my "base" non cosc ETA 2824 on my hamilton, it's almost as accurate as my Omega's


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## Dancing Fire (Aug 16, 2011)

BrentYYC said:


> Let's get real for a minute. A high end movement with a COSC chronometer certification *(about 3% of watches made) is rated at -4/+6 seconds per day*. That's as good as you can expect, period, with a Rolex or comparable high end watch. Most mechanical watches will be within +-12 seconds a day or better, and that's what's considered normal (or industry acceptable). Whether it's acceptable to you personally is another story, but even a cheap movement can usually be regulated to fall within COSC chronometer standards (but for how long it will hold that accuracy is questionable due to potentially lower quality parts).


that would not be acceptable in my book.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

You guys are hardcore. On a dress watch mechanical, within 15 s/d is fine since I rarely wear one for more than 12 hours at a time.

On an every day mechanical, within 5s/d is fine.

With a quartz I demand within 15s/m on my multifunction watches and 60s/y on my high end just because they're high end.




Will


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## por44 (Dec 21, 2007)

_[SUP][/SUP]_*The following is copied from Wikipedia "ETA 2824"*_[SUP]One workhorse of the ETA mechanical line is the ETA 2824-2, The 2824 is an automatic winding, twenty-five (25) jewel movement, available in four executions or grades: Standard, Elaborated (improved), Top and Chronometer.[SUP][4][/SUP] The key components which differ at the line of demarcation between Elaborated and Top are the barrel spring, shock protection system, pallet stones, balance wheel & hairspring and the regulator mechanism. In contrast, since the addition of the "-2" at the end of the movement number, there has been no difference between the standard and the chronometer grades in terms of the regulator mechanism, both being Etachron. To illustrate the differences in accuracy garnered by the successive grades, consider the following specifications:


the Standard grade is adjusted in two positions with an average rate of +/-12 seconds/day, with a maximum daily variation of +/-30 seconds/day; 
the Elaborated grade is adjusted in three positions with an average rate of +/-7 seconds/day, with a maximum daily variation of +/-30 seconds/day; 
while the Top grade is adjusted in five positions with an average rate of +/-4 seconds/day, with a maximum daily variation of +/-10 seconds/day. 
The Chronometer grade must meet strict standards prescribed by the COSC. Chronometer grade movements are serial numbered, as that is a requirement of the certification authority. Moreover, it should be noted that the degree of decoration on the movement's parts, generally only an aesthetic improvement, increases as well with the grade.[SUP][5][/SUP]
[/SUP]_


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## Dancing Fire (Aug 16, 2011)

i own 3 mechanical watches and all 3 runs within +2 sec per day,maybe just luck?...;-)


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

30 seconds slow or fast is as high as I'd go. But I set all my watches 1 minute advanced anyway. As long as you don't operate trains or make a hobby out of syncing your watch with atomic clocks, a little bit of variation is fine.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## LJUSMC (Mar 20, 2009)

1) -4/+6 (COSC Standards) is acceptable, although I prefer my watches to be on the '+' side.
2) +/- 15-20 sec/day is probably ok
3) +/- 10-15 seconds per month is OK (unless you're talking about a Grand Seiko Quartz, in which case it will be accurate to less than 10 seconds per YEAR)
4) Same as #3

I use a radio controlled digital desktop clock and also a Casio atomic solar G-Shock for my time comparisons. Occasionally I will also use time.gov

Personally, my Rolex Explorer 1 is about +4 seconds/day. I'm perfectly OK with this. The balance wheel in my Rolex "ticks" 8 times per second. This is 691,200 times every day, that means it's only off by 34 ticks per 24 hours, and 34 out of 691,200 isn't bad at all... 4 measly seconds out of 86,400 seconds every day.



Manks said:


> I have seen a couple of posts that talk about how much time a Rolex will loose or gain in a day, I am fairly new to this stuff and was wondering what is an acceptable level of time loss / gain for:
> 
> 1) a High End Mechanical / Manual / Automatic Watch - like a Rolex / Omega or other "quality" brand (I happen to have two vintage Omega's and one vintage Tudor)
> 
> ...


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## mat_ (May 29, 2011)

I imagine if most people got rid of a mechanical watch that was 2 sec per day out there would be a mammoth market for brand new preowned high end mechanicals....and id never buy a new watch again.

Any mechanical watch running within cosc specs is keeping excellent time. 

My quartz TAG loses a couple of seconds a month.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

por44 said:


> *The following is copied from Wikipedia "ETA 2824"*
> 
> _[SUP]One workhorse of the ETA mechanical line is the ETA 2824-2, The 2824 is an automatic winding, twenty-five (25) jewel movement, available in four executions or grades: Standard, Elaborated (improved), Top and Chronometer.[SUP][4][/SUP] The key components which differ at the line of demarcation between Elaborated and Top are the barrel spring, shock protection system, pallet stones, balance wheel & hairspring and the regulator mechanism. In contrast, since the addition of the "-2" at the end of the movement number, there has been no difference between the standard and the chronometer grades in terms of the regulator mechanism, both being Etachron. To illustrate the differences in accuracy garnered by the successive grades, consider the following specifications:
> 
> ...


The Wikipedia article is a little misleading...



> ...is adjusted in two positions with an average rate of +/-12 seconds/day, with a maximum daily variation of +/-30 seconds/day...


This statement makes it sound as if the average movement is +/- 12 s/d, and it will gain or loose a maximum 30 seconds per day.

The actual limits are actually quite different.

- The average of the two positional rates shall be within +/-12 s/d, so if the two rates are CH = _*-30 s/d *_and 6H = *+*_*42s/d*_, the average rate would be _*+6 s/d*_

- The maximum variation between the two positional rates can be no more than _*30 s/d*_, this means the above spread is out of tolaerance. However, if you play with the math, you can see that you can get a pretty bad spread in positional rates, that probably would not be considered all that good by the average WIS, but be within tolerance...

_*CH = -3 s/d
6H = +27 s/d

Average rate = 12 s/d
Maximum positional error = 30 s/d
*_
When I time a watch with a wide positional error, I have found that if you weight the rates 65% verical, and 35% horizontal, most of the time you match the average wearer. The above movement would wear somewhere around _*16 to 17 s/d*_, would you consider that "good"?

_Then, there is the isochronism error..._

The isochronism error can be +/- 20 s/d over 24 hours. Assume the same above movement, so the 6H rate would be at full wind +27 s/d, but after 24 hours the rate could degrade another +20 s/d to +47 s/d.

How many here feel +47 s/d is acceptable?

The same is true for Elabore or Top grades, the actual allowable error the wearer will see can be quite a long way from the listed figures.

For a reader exercise, what is the worst single position error you could see in the Elabore grade (average if three positions, with a max spread of 20 s/d) that would still pass? Top Grade (five positions, max spread of 15 s/d)?


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## PH68 (Nov 12, 2010)

To be honest I couldn't care less how many "ticks" out a Rolex is.

I wear a watch every day, sometimes the same watch for days/weeks on end.
I change the time on my watches every six months when winter/summertime ends.
Some of you say that for an auto then +/-4 seconds (or even +/-2 seconds) is acceptable per day.
After six months the watch would therefore be more than 10 minutes out.
If you are accepting +/- 20 seconds a day, then you are expecting your watch to be an hour out after sixth months.
Of course some of you will re-adjust the time within six months (which will mean continually unscrewing/screwing the crown on your expensive auto).

If I've just spent thousands of ££ or $$ on a watch, I'd be very annoyed if my cheap kitchen clock kept better time. I couldn't care less what COSC say.
With all the technology available today I am still stunned that an expensive Swiss watch is not as accurate as a quartz.

Lets face it, in this day & age, after sixth months of non-adjustment, _any _watch should be less than a minute out.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

PH68 said:


> ...some of you will re-adjust the time within six months (which will mean continually unscrewing/screwing the crown on your expensive auto)....


Unless your inexpensive quartz is a perpetual calendar, or a no-date, you will be unscrewing the crown every other month to reset the date as well...

Quite honestly, even though I have.in the past continously worn watches that were not all that accurate, (remember when pin levers were the only cheap watch available?) I don't seem to remember resetting the time being a nusance, in fact I can't really remember doing it regularly....but I must have, those Timex pin levers were rarely better than 15 to 20 s/d....



PH68 said:


> ... Lets face it, in this day & age, after sixth months of non-adjustment, _any _watch should be less than a minute out...


Many quartz modules are only spec'ed out +/- 0.5 s/d, so after 180 days, these would be 1-1/2 minutes out..... And that's if they keep the temperature at a constant 25 C....


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## grotty (Dec 1, 2011)

Just to keep it simple...

What I WANT is within +2s/d.

What I WOULD SETTLE FOR is +5s/d.

This goes for any mechanical watch, regardless of cheap/high-end, because I the most accurate watch I have happens to be my cheapest (Orient +1s/d), the least accurate is my so-so priced Swiss (ETA 2893 standard +15s/d), and the one that falls somewhere in the middle is my most expensive (5K+) watch.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

You guys are true strict about accuracy.

The IWC Grand Complication (sold for around $200,000) is based on the 7750, so technically speaking it won't be more accurate than a COSC certified 7750, and none of the lucky owners of this watch would care about accuracy like us.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

PH68 said:


> To be honest I couldn't care less how many "ticks" out a Rolex is.
> 
> I wear a watch every day, sometimes the same watch for days/weeks on end.
> I change the time on my watches every six months when winter/summertime ends.
> ...


Your kitchen clock, whether battery powered quartz or mains powered synchronous motor will run horological circles around any mechanical watch made. Mechanical watches are accurate to seconds per day while quartz timed watches are accurate to seconds per month or in several instances seconds per year. In a sense mechanical watches are a quaint and enjoyable anachronism whose design once was the basis for the worlds most accurate timekeepers. But that accomplishment was eclipsed first by tuning fork watches then by quartz timed watches. Enjoy your mechanical watches for what they are...not for what they can never be.


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## JimRXTN (Jan 26, 2015)

PH68 said:


> If I've just spent thousands of ££ or $$ on a watch, I'd be very annoyed if my cheap kitchen clock kept better time. I couldn't care less what COSC say.
> With all the technology available today I am still stunned that an expensive Swiss watch is not as accurate as a quartz.
> .


This is the nature of timekeeping that you're complaining about. It just isn't possible for a mechanism, where there are so many moving parts, where there is always some degree of friction, where gravity affects the balance wheel, you just cannot expect it to be as or more accurate as a digital watch running off of the vibration of a quartz crystal at the molecular structure level, where there are very few moving parts if any, and is not affected by gravity. The cost is irrelevant, it's the nature of the technological differences.

People do not, or should not buy expensive swiss watches for their precise time keeping ability. You might think that sounds crazy, but lets face it, for time keeping, ever since quarts watches were invented in the 80's, mechanical watches have become obsolete. That's the reality of it. We buy them not for accurate time keeping but for the "art" of it, to know that you have an amazing little "mechanical organism" on your wrist that never needs a battery replaced. It's part nostalgia, part status symbol, part appreciation for the craftsmanship that at best is fully hand made and at worst partially. It's romantic, not some circuit board stamped in a factory in China. That's the point. The future $349 Apple Watch will very likely hold more accurate time than any mechanical watch on earth ever, and it's just the reality of it. Think of it as people still buying manual stick shift sports cars versus the double clutch automatic paddle shift. Similar thing. The double clutch paddle shift transmissions today are better than an old fashioned stick shift in every way. You'll never shift as fast manually, and you can also put it into full auto mode and cruise. But some folks still prefer a real stick shift for the fun of it and for the "connection" they feel with the machine. They know it's slower and more work, but they don't care. Same thing...


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

you really think he was awaiting your answer for 2 years????


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## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

You never know.


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## caadbrad (Jul 7, 2015)

JimRXTN said:


> This is the nature of timekeeping that you're complaining about. It just isn't possible for a mechanism, where there are so many moving parts, where there is always some degree of friction, where gravity affects the balance wheel, you just cannot expect it to be as or more accurate as a digital watch running off of the vibration of a quartz crystal at the molecular structure level, where there are very few moving parts if any, and is not affected by gravity. The cost is irrelevant, it's the nature of the technological differences.
> 
> People do not, or should not buy expensive swiss watches for their precise time keeping ability. You might think that sounds crazy, but lets face it, for time keeping, ever since quarts watches were invented in the 80's, mechanical watches have become obsolete. That's the reality of it. We buy them not for accurate time keeping but for the "art" of it, to know that you have an amazing little "mechanical organism" on your wrist that never needs a battery replaced. It's part nostalgia, part status symbol, part appreciation for the craftsmanship that at best is fully hand made and at worst partially. It's romantic, not some circuit board stamped in a factory in China. That's the point. The future $349 Apple Watch will very likely hold more accurate time than any mechanical watch on earth ever, and it's just the reality of it. Think of it as people still buying manual stick shift sports cars versus the double clutch automatic paddle shift. Similar thing. The double clutch paddle shift transmissions today are better than an old fashioned stick shift in every way. You'll never shift as fast manually, and you can also put it into full auto mode and cruise. But some folks still prefer a real stick shift for the fun of it and for the "connection" they feel with the machine. They know it's slower and more work, but they don't care. Same thing...


This answer is the best, thank you - and yes Memphis1 I think it was totally worth his time bringing up an old thread just to express his thoughts. Even though the OP may never see it, I saw it when I came across this thread in a google search - because i had the same style of question in mind regarding mechanical. I'm new here and just beginning to understand all the differences between watch types, so I've been reading a lot and beginning to understand why folks enjoy their watches and collecting them.


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## m0c021 (Feb 17, 2014)

My personal experience so far.

Mechanical:
Omega Aqua Terra 15,000 Gauss +0.5 sec/day
Mido Multifort Power Reserve +2 sec/day
Ball Red Label +2sec/day on table but +10 sec/day on my wrist
I had a few other Balls shortly but forgot the names and those were +2 to +5 sec/day


Quartz:
I don't really check my quartz so I'm not sure. However I think expectations are 10-15 seconds per month on normal quartz. On higher end quartz, I would expect anywhere from 10 to 30 seconds per year.


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## topol (Aug 28, 2014)

Any watch off 30 minutes a month is an expensive bracelet!


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## m0c021 (Feb 17, 2014)

topol said:


> Any watch off 30 minutes a month is an expensive bracelet!


 That's a minute a day


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## WorthTheWrist (Jan 1, 2015)

CitizenM said:


> On my mechanicals, anywhere from 0 to +2 seconds per day on the wrist (I'm more relaxed off the wrist) is acceptable, although truth be told, I'd probably get rid of a watch that gained 2 seconds a day.
> 
> On a cheap mechanical, I'd expect under 5 seconds a day on the wrist. Slowness is never acceptable. Cheap watches don't have to be inaccurate. My old Orient did under +1 a day easily on my wrist (was much less precise off the wrist for a day, but I digress).
> 
> ...


You apparently live in a different universe than me.

Because in mine, I've bought about 30 watches, including a few in the $500 to $1,750 range, and have gotten +2 seconds a day on one watch.

My just-purchased Citizen Signature Grand Classic, after 48 hours on the wrist and only taken off at night, is +14. Would someone like to argue this watch has an inferior movement?


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

If it causes me to be late for a meeting, it is not acceptable.


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## Lenny1951 (Jun 12, 2016)

I just got a Seiko 5 military type automatic and it's doing around +4 seconds per day. I am leaving it on it's side with crown up at night to lose some seconds.. I'm happy with this pretty cheap watch so far...I know this is an old thread but "Worth the Wrist" have you had the Citizen regulated or is it still at that rate.....Lenny..............


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## Lenny1951 (Jun 12, 2016)

I couldn't edit my post , just wanted to add about my really cheap casio f-91w which is running about +4 sec. a month...


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

Lenny1951 said:


> I couldn't edit my post , just wanted to add about my really cheap casio f-91w which is running about +4 sec. a month...


A quartz, even a cheap one, should do.


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## paskinner (Dec 27, 2015)

I'm quite strict. An average of a few seconds a day is perfectly achievable. So any expensive watch should achieve such standards. Because it's an expensive watch. The fact that a mechanical watch can't compete with quartz is irrelevant. Part of the fun of a mechanical watch is how precise it can be persuaded to be. Not because it 'matters', but because it's a fun target.


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

For me, up to 20 seconds is ok as long as it's consistently the same.

If it goes +5 today then -20 tomorrow, I'm having it cleaned, demagnetized and regulated. Haha

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Lenny1951 (Jun 12, 2016)

I love my Seiko automatic it's great that you can keep it fairly accurate by just the way you store it at night .. I see why people say these mechanical s have a soul.......:-!.......


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## Lenny1951 (Jun 12, 2016)

I tried to delete these pictures but they went on anyway and I can't edit my posts ................


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## Dancing Fire (Aug 16, 2011)

+/- 2 sec. per day.


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## DarthVedder (Jun 12, 2011)

Depends on the price and age of the watch.

For relatively inexpensive (<$1K) watches, anything between +/-15 seconds per day is just fine. For anything above $1K, the minimum acceptable is between +/-10 seconds per day, unless it is a certified chronometer.


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## Lenny1951 (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm spoiled by the accuracy of the Casio quartz but love the Seiko auto............ Once the novelty of the new watch wears off I'm going to open it up and try and get it to run a couple of secs. better......


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## DietersRover (May 26, 2016)

My Steinhart OVM II is off about 2sec a day. Not bad. But my question is how far off do you let your watch go before re-adjusting?
I never adjust my Bertucci A-3T. Only when a new battery is replaced. That watch is bomb proof.


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## paskinner (Dec 27, 2015)

The first thread I ever opened here was about standards of accuracy. Since then I have gone further down that route. I have a Grand Seiko quartz diver watch (10 seconds a year, at worst). A Grand Seiko spring-drive, 10 seconds a month (actually, more like 5 seconds a month) and a Rolex which manages around 2.5 seconds every day (about 1m 15 secs a month). 
There's no utilitarian justification for this, I just seem to enjoy precision in a watch. I still think mechanical watches should strive for the best performance they can, just like other pointless pursuits like climbing mountains. It's always good to strive for better performance.


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## LikeClockWork (Jun 7, 2016)

Not sure about the other "levels", but for high end swiss watches it should be equal to or less than +/- 7 seconds per day


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## imaCoolRobot (Jan 1, 2014)

My watch gains 6s a day on wrist, loses that 6s crown down at night.
If it gains more than 10s a day overall, that's TOOO TOOO much.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

For me, it depends on how often I intend to wear it. My least accurate is my dad's Omega from 1968, and it runs about +12/day, I think. I don't check it often, though, because I don't wear it often.

The auto I've worn the most, an SKX009, somehow managed to average less than a second per day despite showing considerable variance due to my physical activity (more active = faster; yes, really). I didn't have to adjust it until it was time to advance the date.

The most I'm willing to put up with for a daily wearer? I dunno, maybe -5/+10? I'd rather have a fast watch than a slow one.

My quartz watches are atomic-synced, so they're my reference. My Garmin GPS watch can't keep time at all when its battery goes low, which is weird; but at least it syncs up when it gets a satellite lock.


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## MrDagon007 (Sep 24, 2012)

+- 7s per day is ok for me, most of mine do better.
For super accuracy I can always wear my Apple Watch.


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## _MS_ (Jun 25, 2015)

Expensive watches: Under +/- 3s
Inexpensive watches: Under +/-10s


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## Boomerdw (Jan 30, 2017)

Well I am very fussy about time keeping. I like my automatics to be within a single second a day. And after my first mechanical movement I always went with COSC after and would fuss over the rate. i became good friends with my local watchmaker to the point of him letting me hang around the shop and even polish my bracelets using his buffer wheels.

I presently have a 1948 hamilton 992B RR Grade pocket watch that just sits and is wound every day and runs just about spot on. Funny how it will keep amazing time like maybe a second off over three weeks or more then just start -+ a second everyday for a few weeks then back to spot on for a month.

Now I wear quartz and of course my first one was a Seiko GS SBGX 119 and it ran to 1 sec fast after 7 months.

Presently I prefer wearing a Seiko Marine Master Tuna SBBN033. It runs 7-8 seconds fast monthly which for me is hard to swallow. And yes I will adjust it at about 3 seconds.

I fuss a lot with my Atmos clock too, presently is is running very well hardly any time difference over a week. Harder to tell due to no seconds hand. Have to go my pendulum turning and reversing. Anyway it is maybe out a minute plus some at bi annual time change time.

Sold or gave away my mechanical pieces except for the 992B which is a marvel.


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## Tricky73 (May 28, 2017)

Obviously Rolex is +/- 2 sec per day. For me I’m happy with +/- 5 sec per day as I can always change resting position overnight to allow them to speed up or slow down depends how the watch is running when worn


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

Boomerdw said:


> . . . . . that just sits and is wound every day and runs just about spot on. . . . .


A marine chronometer with fusee might be a choice that you would wish to consider.

When mounted in its gimbaled case you could actually transport it as opposed to having it relegated to stasis to maintain its rate.


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## Munchie (Dec 20, 2013)

People on this thread have got some very good results.

I have not had such good results with my cheap mechanicals and so I have learned not to expect too much.

My SARB 033 was around -26 spd until I had it serviced and adjusted by Seiko then after that I have recorded between +4 and +12 spd. 

My Orient Star classic was between +6 and +12spd 

My Citizen NY0040-09ee has been pretty good for a cheap mechanical - around +5 spd 

My Oris big crown pro pilot which is a new arrival seems to be consistently -5spd which is OK - but I would prefer if it was +5spd

My new VSA Alliance looks like +5spd or less but I haven't been monitoring it that closely. 


So whats acceptable to me ? well as I say I have not got high expectations of mechanical watches so anything within spec is liveable/acceptable IMO 

I think if a watch is performing between +/- 10 seconds it is a pretty accurate in my book.

I always prefer them to be a little fast rather than slow.


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## pickle puss (Feb 13, 2006)

Expectations depend on the watch/movement.
In my years of collecting I've seen a wide variation. Currently my watches are anywhere from - 20 to+24 with everything in between.. Average is probably +/- 10. From my time on various fora these threads pop up and I realize that I am one of the few who get all the bad watches. Everyone else seems to have COSC rates on their watches.
Never wearing a watch for more than a few days in a row I don't loose sleep over it. 
All my watches are within spec for their particular movements. I think many WIS expect far too much.


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## Rakumi (Nov 11, 2015)

I never wear one watch long enough for it to matter. My automatic always run out of power by thr time I put them back on. If a watch is within a minute of the actual time, it really does not affect my day.


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## OneOwner (Dec 10, 2017)

I bought a zenith cronometro tipo cp2 Nov 2017. It runs the el primero movement which was a big reason why I bought it. It has a reputation for accuracy. New it ran +/- 0.5 sec per day. Today after 4 months of daily wear its about -1 sec / day. My first swiss watch an IWC ingenieur mecha quartz from the 90's still runs -1 sec / wk. I still love that watch but there's something about the mechanical that draws me to it. It truly is a watch with a heart . When I decided to buy my first mechanical after having a quartz for 20 years I was hoping for accuracy of 2 seconds per day but would have settled for a maximum of 4 seconds. My other option would be to buy a few less expensive mechanical watches and swap them out and reset them every week or two. Even at 7 Seconds a day which should be doable with any decent regulated movement. After a week you're still accurate to within less than a minute. With my zenith I only reset it every month or two.


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## Baka1969 (Dec 29, 2017)

I take people's anecdotal accounts of their mechanical watch's accuracy with a few grains of salt.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Baka1969 said:


> I take people's anecdotal accounts of their mechanical watch's accuracy with a few grains of salt.


No kidding. My Seiko SKX009 has averaged within a second per day yet I'm not going to use it to say that unadjusted Malaysian movements are the best ever.


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## Riverbeaver (Oct 5, 2015)

Baka, many many grains of salt. There seems to be a lot of exaggeration on this thread.


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## barihunk (Jul 2, 2012)

Boomerdw said:


> Well I am very fussy about time keeping. I like my automatics to be within a single second a day. And after my first mechanical movement I always went with COSC after and would fuss over the rate.


What was the means with which you kept your mechanicals to 1s/day? Constant regulation (by yourself or your watchmaker friend)? Never wearing them (bumps and movement)? I would love to be that selective too but don't know how I would go about it other than funding a watchmaker's monthly rent


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## Smaug (Jan 8, 2011)

Guys, it's a Zombie Thread.


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## Robinoz (Jul 20, 2012)

As the core function of a watch - any watch - is to keep a record of time, no loss or gain should be acceptable. I have several quartz watches that are very accurate and a CASIO Edifice Link watch that keeps time after linking to my mobile phone which gets it's time from an atomic clock. 

Satellite, link or radio corrected watches should be accurate period. However, most automatic and other non-quartz watches gain or lose a few seconds per day depending on what the environment is, what position they are in and so on. To find out what the plus or minus values are, visit the watch manufacturer's site and you'll probably see details in their specifications.


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## OneOwner (Dec 10, 2017)

Baka1969 said:


> I take people's anecdotal accounts of their mechanical watch's accuracy with a few grains of salt.


I agree that you can't take the report on one movement and assume that this is the standard for that movement. All I am offering is some honest data for people to add to their research.

Before I decided on an el primero movement I did a lot of research. Below is a link to one of the watch tests that stood out for me as being fair and real world. Seven watches worn at the same time for one week. And coincidentally - Riverbeaver - the el primero movement in this test ran the same accuracy as mine. Off by about 1sec per day. Just luck? Sure that's possible and if so I'm glad I got lucky. BTW Rolex based the movement in their daytona on the el primero up until 2000.

I don't have the post count yet to add a link so just google the following for the vid
there can be only one: timekeeping accuracy


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## c5pilot11 (Jan 14, 2018)

Take it to a reputable watch maker.


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## On time on target (May 6, 2018)

Somebody asked a while ago, how often do you adjust time to put your watch back on synch with real time. I would do it every week or day if my watch lost more than 5 seconds a day. But my question is, can you over do it ? is there any warning against adjusting your watch every day or so ?


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## Nom de Forum (Oct 17, 2012)

On time on target said:


> Somebody asked a while ago, how often do you adjust time to put your watch back on synch with real time. I would do it every week or day if my watch lost more than 5 seconds a day. But my question is, can you over do it ? is there any warning against adjusting your watch every day or so ?


Yes. By adjusting your watch everyday you are causing more wear and tear to the mechanical parts of the watch. It may not be much more wear and tear but it is causing more wear to the watch. If you have a watch that you wear every day that loses more than 5 seconds a day and that is unacceptable to you, you should get your watch repaired or get another watch for daily wear. Life's too short to be spending time every day adjusting your watch.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

On time on target said:


> Somebody asked a while ago, how often do you adjust time to put your watch back on synch with real time. I would do it every week or day if my watch lost more than 5 seconds a day. But my question is, can you over do it ? is there any warning against adjusting your watch every day or so ?


That's overdoing it imho. Many watch owners store their watches in one position that offsets the error accumulated during the day.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

On time on target said:


> Somebody asked a while ago, how often do you adjust time to put your watch back on synch with real time. I would do it every week or day if my watch lost more than 5 seconds a day. But my question is, can you over do it ? is there any warning against adjusting your watch every day or so ?


That's overdoing it imho. Many watch owners store their watches in one position that offsets the error accumulated during the day.


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## Munchie (Dec 20, 2013)

John MS said:


> That's overdoing it imho. Many watch owners store their watches in one position that offsets the error accumulated during the day.


You can say that again


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Munchie said:


> You can say that again


Here ya go:


John MS said:


> That's overdoing it imho. Many watch owners store their watches in one position that offsets the error accumulated during the day.


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

Nom de Forum said:


> . . . By adjusting your watch everyday you are causing more wear and tear . . .


 . . . . and then one day you look down and you're seconds hand is happily chugging along but the minute and hour hands haven't moved since morning.


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## cuthbert (Dec 6, 2009)

Most of the numbers thrown in this thread as seriously hilarious and made me think a lot of people can't time their watches properly.


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## Agskennedy (Jan 27, 2018)

I really don't think that most people buy mechanical watches for their scalpel precision and accuracy, at least I don't. I but mechanical watches because they are a marvel of engineering, with great character and fantastic intricacy in addition to being a tool to tell time with. Don't get me wrong, I want my mechanicals to be accurate, and many of them are, I have an oris that is running -0.72 seconds a day and a steinhart running at -0.21 seconds a day, and I love that, but I'm not mad at my steinhart GMT that is running +6 seconds a day. (I know some people hate homages but I really like my two steinhart watches) mechanical watches harken back to a different time, they feel special, you have to interact with them to keep them going and keep them accurate, it's part of the charm. If you want surgical precision that is solely a tool you should buy Quartz, expecting a mechanical to perform like an atomic clock is like expecting tesla performance out of an E type Jaguar, it's never going to happen, you're not comparing apples to apples, but you don't buy the jag for cutting edge tech and performance you buy it because of the soul, character, and history.


PH68 said:


> To be honest I couldn't care less how many "ticks" out a Rolex is.
> 
> I wear a watch every day, sometimes the same watch for days/weeks on end.
> I change the time on my watches every six months when winter/summertime ends.
> ...


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## Stevuke79 (Sep 7, 2020)

My brand new Breitling Superocean just lost 8 seconds over night. It was 1 second slow (compared to verizon) yesterday... pretty much all day... I checked it again today and it's 9 seconds slow.

Does this mean anything? Is it cause for concern?


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## aladdin.hassan (Nov 10, 2020)

Stevuke79 said:


> My brand new Breitling Superocean just lost 8 seconds over night. It was 1 second slow (compared to verizon) yesterday... pretty much all day... I checked it again today and it's 9 seconds slow.
> 
> Does this mean anything? Is it cause for concern?


It's definitely such a bad sign !!

Sent from my Mi9 Pro 5G using Tapatalk


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## Harry13potter14 (Mar 2, 2021)

PH68 said:


> For total accuracy get a radio-controlled watch from Citizen, or a wave-ceptor watch from Casio.
> They update everyday so your watch is accurate.
> Some work in one region (such as USA, or Japan, etc.), some multiple or world-wide regions.
> 
> ...


I can't stand quartz too modern, I like old-school wind-up


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## SWilly67 (Nov 5, 2019)

Acceptable: within manufacturers tolerances
Unacceptable: outside of manufacturers tolerances


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## imaCoolRobot (Jan 1, 2014)

SWilly67 said:


> Acceptable: within manufacturers tolerances
> Unacceptable: outside of manufacturers tolerances


what if the Manufacturer is SEIKO and just has stupid tolerances?
$4000 watch with an 8L35 specced to -10/+15 seconds a day.


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## Megalobyte (Sep 20, 2010)

imaCoolRobot said:


> what if the Manufacturer is SEIKO and just has stupid tolerances?
> $4000 watch with an 8L35 specced to -10/+15 seconds a day.


But they tend to gain 0-5 a day in real use.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## imaCoolRobot (Jan 1, 2014)

Megalobyte said:


> But they tend to gain 0-5 a day in real use.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Then they should say that instead of some disingenuously vague number.


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## PennyTheDog (Dec 16, 2010)

For me, the presence of a phone has actually made accuracy less important because I can easily adjust my watch every day. So a watch that’s within two minutes a day is fine for me; set it in the morning a minute ahead/behind, and it ends the day a minute behind/ahead. The pursuit of accuracy appeals to me aesthetically, but practically it’s pretty unimportant.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

For me, anything under +10s is acceptable for a mechanical. I don't like to lose time at all. Like many here, I'd rather it run fast than slow.

After getting a HAQ though, chasing COSC mechanical accuracy seems a bit foolish. Still I'd stand by the above number.


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## obomomomo (Nov 4, 2014)

PiguetPolo said:


> For me, anything under +10s is acceptable for a mechanical. I don't like to lose time at all. Like many here, I'd rather it run fast than slow.
> 
> After getting a HAQ though, chasing COSC mechanical accuracy seems a bit foolish. Still I'd stand by the above number.


I have the same thoughts except I'd give a bit more leeway, like +20spd for a mechanical costing less than, say, $600. I'd still rather have +20spd than -1spd regardless of cost.


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## SWilly67 (Nov 5, 2019)

imaCoolRobot said:


> what if the Manufacturer is SEIKO and just has stupid tolerances?
> $4000 watch with an 8L35 specced to -10/+15 seconds a day.


Then I wouldn't buy it.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

obomomomo said:


> I have the same thoughts except I'd give a bit more leeway, like +20spd for a mechanical costing less than, say, $600. I'd still rather have +20spd than -1spd regardless of cost.


I have a Seiko 8L35 that was running about +15 to +17spd when worn. After a week, it was 2 minutes fast which is a bit too high for my liking. I mean I wasn't popping blood vessels over it, but it was just slightly above Seiko's window which was bumming me out.

Got a demagnetizer in the post yesterday and lo and behold, after 22 hours I'm running +1.5 spd which is sweetness. Thrilled to have accuracy now and that I don't have to lose wrist time due to service.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

PiguetPolo said:


> I have an Seiko 8L35 that was running about +15-17spd when worn. After a week, it was 2 minutes fast which is a bit too high for my liking. I mean I wasn't popping blood vessels over it, but it was just slightly above Seiko's window which was bumming me out.
> 
> *Got a demagnetizer in the post yesterday and lo and behold, after 22 hours I'm running +1.5 spd which is sweetness.* Thrilled to have accuracy now and that I don't have to loose wrist time due to service.


I see these stories every so often, and I have to ask if you can figure out how it might've gotten magnetized. I'll acknowledge that it could've been magnetized anywhere between the factory and your wrist, so if it starts to run fast again, I'd like to hear if you can troubleshoot it.

Maybe I should start wearing my autos more often again. Even though I'm working from home, my laptop has stronger magnets in its base than do the keyboards at the office (strong enough to make my Swatch stop ticking if I lay it on the right spot). I should find out if these magnets affect my autos.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

BarracksSi said:


> I see these stories every so often, and I have to ask if you can figure out how it might've gotten magnetized. I'll acknowledge that it could've been magnetized anywhere between the factory and your wrist, so if it starts to run fast again, I'd like to hear if you can troubleshoot it.
> 
> Maybe I should start wearing my autos more often again. Even though I'm working from home, my laptop has stronger magnets in its base than do the keyboards at the office (strong enough to make my Swatch stop ticking if I lay it on the right spot). I should find out if these magnets affect my autos.


I don't have a history of it from new. I bought the watch about 4 months ago preowned and it was always fast. I've timed it from day 1 of receiving and it was always around +17spd. The best I got was +14spd. Is nearing its 2 year mfg date now.

The only thing I would have to say is that I wished the AD (and all ADs) I purchased it from would've given it to their in-house watchmaker to demagnetize as a matter of course when selling preowned.


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## INAMINUTE (Jul 2, 2020)

Manks said:


> I have seen a couple of posts that talk about how much time a Rolex will loose or gain in a day, I am fairly new to this stuff and was wondering what is an acceptable level of time loss / gain for:
> 
> 1) a High End Mechanical / Manual / Automatic Watch - like a Rolex / Omega or other "quality" brand (I happen to have two vintage Omega's and one vintage Tudor)
> 
> ...


+10/-5 spd on a mechanical. 1 second a week on a quartz


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

obomomomo said:


> I have the same thoughts except I'd give a bit more leeway, like +20spd for a mechanical costing less than, say, $600. I'd still rather have +20spd than -1spd regardless of cost.


I typically shy away from buying Autos under $600. I did purchase a Seiko 4R36 watch fresh from AD, but then sold after a month. That pedestrian 4R36 was running approx +1 to +1.5spd from the factory which set high expectations for the 8L35.


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## hpark21 (Oct 8, 2007)

VERY rare for me to wear a watch for more than couple of days (1 week MAX), after 1 week, if it is within 2-3 min. I probably won't even notice as I never really set to exact time anyways. I may check accuracy when I initially acquire the watch, but other than that...


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

So with the knowledge that Magnetism tends to make a watch run super fast, its also very possible if it can make a watch run super slow.

From what I've read if the gear train becomes magnetized, it creates electromagnetic resistance causing the watch to lose time.

Currently, I have a vintage Seiko 5 that is losing gobs of time and never wore for long stretches due to the fact. I demagnetized it yesterday.

While I don't have the before data, I can see that it's already showing great improvement as its only lost 7 seconds in 12 hours. In the past it would easily lose 30 seconds or more in a day. It brings it back into a wearable state for me at that timekeeping specification.

Full disclosure: Beyond magnetics, the Seiko 6309a movement was manufactured in May 1980 and probably hasn't been serviced for 41 years.


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## Megalobyte (Sep 20, 2010)

PiguetPolo said:


> So with the knowledge that Magnetism tends to make a watch run super fast, its also very possible if it can make a watch run super slow.
> 
> From what I've read if the gear train becomes magnetized, it creates electromagnetic resistance causing the watch to lose time.
> 
> ...


My understanding is magnetism causes the hairspring to stick to itself, shortening its "elasticity" thus making the watch run fast.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RobMc (Dec 27, 2015)

Depends what I was drinking.


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## G550driver (Mar 10, 2013)

I set my watch before a period of wear which lasts between four days and a week and if it’s less than a minute adrift at the end of the period I’m happy.


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## hoss (Nov 1, 2014)

-13”/+13” seconds per day is an acceptable loss/gain for an automatic Seiko diver’s watch like the new Turtle.


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## litespud (Nov 15, 2018)

Manks said:


> I have seen a couple of posts that talk about how much time a Rolex will loose or gain in a day, I am fairly new to this stuff and was wondering what is an acceptable level of time loss / gain for:
> 
> 1) a High End Mechanical / Manual / Automatic Watch - like a Rolex / Omega or other "quality" brand (I happen to have two vintage Omega's and one vintage Tudor)
> 
> ...


My daily-wear watch (2824 elabore) varies between zero and -1spd. I hack it to my phone the start of every month. However, I would love to get back to a place where I didn't care how many seconds fast or slow my watch was. All through high school and college, I wore an old manual-wound Omega. I wound it when I woke up, set it to the radio when I thought of it. It didn't hack, so "close enough was good enough". Otherwise, I just assumed that, as a decent watch, it kept decent time, which it did. I had no idea how many spd it ran, because it didn't matter - I was neither running a railroad nor navigating Apollo 13. I'm trying to wean myself off expecting to-the-second accuracy from dare-I-say-it obsolete technology that is rarely capable of such feats.


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## cuthbert (Dec 6, 2009)

In terms of absolute accuracy my best watch is a G Shock DW5900 that gains one second ever thee months, from what I have read on the Casio board this is not unusual and I assume this module came out very well.









Regarding auto my best guy is my Zenith Primero that loses about 2 seconds per week:









My GS hi beat is at 1.5 sec/day, my Doxs Sub300 (COSC certificated) about the same.

Seiko has been good with me: all my affordable 4R36s are in the + or - 5 sec/day when fully wound.


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## cestrian4watches (Jan 26, 2019)

I have a rotary 21 jewel 1971 automatic gaining 1 minute per day is this average and how can I improve it 
Thanks


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