# Ukraine vintage watches on Ebay?



## pixnw (Dec 20, 2008)

Are any of the vintage Russian and German watches for sale on Ebay by Ukraine based sellers for real? Some have close to 100% positive feedback, but I wonder if the watches they are selling are authentic? I only ask because my family is of German ancestory, and my young son is very much into German military memoribilia. It would be great to get him an actual German vintage military watch, but I'm unsure of reliable sources, or if any of the Ebay sellers are selling actual vintage watches. Any advice would be very much appreciated.


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

First of all, welcome to the forum!

In one word: no.

These are watches manufactured to take in people who don't ask questions. They are at best cobbled together from bits and pieces - we call them "Frankenwatches", as they are put together from the dead and brought back to life - and while the sellers have close to 100% on eBay, it's because people are trusting and don't want to be bothered to do their homework.

One key give-away is their size. During WW2, only very, very few watches were large, most being around 30mm plus/minus a few millimeters. The Ukrainian watches are almost invariably pocket watch movements adapted to be worn as a wrist watch, and none of the military watches of the time were made like that. The German Army watchs were also marked on the back with "D .... H" with numbers in the middle, and if a watch is missing this, it is not a German military watch (these numbers were entered into a soldier's pay book as part of his equipment and he was responsible for always having it, and was docked pay if he lost it). Most soldiers did not wear watches as part of their normal equipment during WW2 - and those who did were either officers or specialists who needed to keep track of the time (signals people, etc) for whatever reason.

Finding a real German military watch on eBay is possible, but look for smaller watches with the D...H markings (they were made by a very large number of companies), with a sub-dial for the seconds at the 6 o'clock, and which have a black dial. If there is lume to see the time at night, be forewarned that this will probably be radium, which while safe in the watch, means that any work done on the watch will have to be done by a watchmaker who knows his way around such watches. Not many are willing to do so, since it can lead to rather unpleasant side-effects if inhaled or swallowed. Poses no harm to the wearer, though.

Feel free to ask us with specific questions about any watch you may find for sale, either here or on our pilot-military forum. There are no stupid questions. 

You might want to aim at getting your son a book about German military watches before actually getting him one: he'll get a much larger amount of information about them that way. Konrad Knirim wrote the ultimate book on German military watches, but it's not cheap and can be hard to find.

JohnF


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## pixnw (Dec 20, 2008)

Thank you for a very informative post JohnF! I will look for the book.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

pixnw said:


> Are any of the vintage Russian and German watches for sale on Ebay by Ukraine based sellers for real? Some have close to 100% positive feedback, but I wonder if the watches they are selling are authentic? I only ask because my family is of German ancestory, and my young son is very much into German military memoribilia. It would be great to get him an actual German vintage military watch, but I'm unsure of reliable sources, or if any of the Ebay sellers are selling actual vintage watches. Any advice would be very much appreciated.


I acquired 3 watches from the Ukraine earlier this year. But they were Russian watches. Even then the seller misrepresented the nature of one of them according to my Russian watchmaker.

Of those watches which I am competent enough to judge, almost every time I have found one from the Ukraine, it has been a deliberate forgery.

But to answer your question directly I would think some are real... I just haven't found them yet.


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## mikeukrainetz (Jul 9, 2008)

I purchased this watch from a seller in the Ukraine and it was touted as being old and original. 
Of course I only stumbled upon it looking for something else and was taken by the style, something I particularily like. It wasnt purchased on the assumption the information or the item was genuine. Discussion with the seller was very pleasant and not misleading in the least. 
That being said I am still not sure what I actually have other than a possible pocket watch retrofit from sometime back.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

I am no expert on Russian watches but it looks way too clean to have much age... it is pretty.


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

The movement looks like something from Glashütte: you've got the 3/4 plate and the Glashütte "click" (Glashüttesperre). Definitely a mish-mash, though...

Rather nice movement. But the subdial roman numbers at 20, 40 and 60 are definitely bizarre...

JohnF


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2008)

JohnF said:


> The movement looks like something from Glashütte: you've got the 3/4 plate and the Glashütte "click" (Glashüttesperre). Definitely a mish-mash, though...
> 
> Rather nice movement. *But the subdial roman numbers at 20, 40 and 60 are definitely bizarre...*
> 
> JohnF


Maybe because this dial is obviously new, and (sorry for the buyer) not very well-made


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## aliasrichmond (Dec 9, 2007)

If you want to find a genuine German military watch, play safe and dont buy anything from Ukraine, they are almost all fakes or frankens, look on ebay.de and search for the following brands:
Acacia 
Alpina 
Arcadia 
Arsa 
Bielco 
Bulla 
Buren 
BWC 
Choisi 
Civitas 
Cronos 
Doxa 
Emco 
ERA 
Ercules 
Felco 
Flora 
Freco 
Gala 
Glycine 
Grana 
Gustonia 
Hado 
Helios 
Helma 
Helvetia 
Leonidas 
Longines 
Mimo 
Minerva 
Moeris 
Monitor 
Mulco 
Nisus 
Onda 
OPE 
Para 
Phenix 
Pierpont 
Pronto 
Record 
Recta 
Revue 
Siegerin 
Silvana 
Stabila 
Stowa 
Syntakt 
Thiel 
Titus 
Tritona 
Wagner 
Zenith 
Zentra


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2008)

aliasrichmond said:


> If you want to find a genuine German military watch, play safe and dont buy anything from Ukraine, they are almost all fakes or frankens, look on ebay.de and search for the following brands:
> (...)
> 
> Wagner
> ...


I thought this (current) Wagner brand was one of those "I swear I'm not made in China" - German brands :think:

EDIT: I've learned something new:










Nice and clean KM watch BTW.


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## aliasrichmond (Dec 9, 2007)

Misterpeter said:


> I thought this (current) Wagner brand was one of those "I swear I'm not made in China" - German brands :think:
> 
> EDIT: I've learned something new:
> 
> ...


The mushroom brand vendors quite often re-launch an old name to give thier crap a false history


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## Marrick (May 2, 2007)

Just stumbled upon this piece:

http://designblogger.com/?p=42

which folks interested in Ukrainian fakes might like.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

My watchmaker says they are not even completely honest about their Russian watches -- but at least they sell those for low enough they can be worth it if you want that specific model.


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## pacifichrono (Feb 11, 2006)

I bought this "Russkie" from a Ukraine seller yesterday for $49.00, just because I like it!


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## Tudorman (Jul 13, 2006)

http://germanwatch.proboards.com/index.cgi?

This is the best place to start in educating yourself about German Military watches. It requires years of research and experience to be able to tell the difference between the real thing and a well executed replica. No better time to start the process than right now.

The Axiom "You can't cheat an honest man", infers prudent research and paying the going rate for the best example available.


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## RIOS (Mar 20, 2009)

FINGERS OFF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
======================================

:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart



pixnw said:


> Are any of the vintage Russian and German watches for sale on Ebay by Ukraine based sellers for real? Some have close to 100% positive feedback, but I wonder if the watches they are selling are authentic? I only ask because my family is of German ancestory, and my young son is very much into German military memoribilia. It would be great to get him an actual German vintage military watch, but I'm unsure of reliable sources, or if any of the Ebay sellers are selling actual vintage watches. Any advice would be very much appreciated.


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## boswell (Mar 22, 2008)

Some interesting watches seem to appear from Ukraine - Frankens no doubt but certainly some fascinating concoctions. Unfortunate that they often purport to be something they are not - well not completely I suppose.
More like a salvage industry - recycling bits of old pocket watches - certainly enterprising.
Trouble is that if my wrist was larger I might be tempted to buy the odd one - simply as they are one offs!
Anyway love 'em or loathe 'em - they seem to sell well and feedback suggests the customers are out there and willing to pay.

That's life!


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## nsmike (Jun 21, 2009)

I have exactly one experience buying from the Ukraine it was fine. I bought a 70's era Vostock manual. I think that the 70's era watches, are common and inexpensive, so there is nothing to gain by faking them


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## parrotandpitbull (Sep 9, 2009)

My feelings exactly, the only thing resembling a franken Ive bought on ebay was an older Sandoz, otherwise, My Luch's, Kirovskies, Poljots, svets, Cornavin, Raketa etc are often Ukraine in origin and too darn cheap for any one to bother to replicate.Luchs starting to go up in price but too difficult to replicate. P&P


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## frontside5 (Sep 1, 2010)

I have to admit, these watches caught my eye and were ultimately the reason why I found this site. I was excited the first time I discovered them, then started doing research.

I learned that by reading the description carefully you could easily see what components are original. If it's stated as original or authentic (e.g. dial) then it is. If it doesn't (e.g. case) then it's newly made. The writeups are very carefully done because I assume there have been plenty of ppl who've had these authenticated then tried to make a dispute but if the seller never claims that all components are original to each other or original at all then to ebay the description is valid and the negative feedback is pulled. I have to hand it to them - some of these guys do a really good job of hyping their product.

You can definitely buy them if you like the look, just know that you are basically paying for (usually) a repaired vintage pocket movement mated to a made-up dial and transplanted into a new $3 case. I have a Molnija pretty similar to pacifichrono's that I picked up because I think it looks cool. As an occassional watch I throw on whenever I feel like it, I think the style quotient's way higher than a similarly-priced swatch, dkny or anything in that vein.

By the way, hi!


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## AmericanGentleman (Sep 12, 2011)

Sorry to revive an old thread but I came across what are claimed as vintage watches on eBay and wanted to see get feedback from those here in the forum... Would it be ok if I post links here?

This is my first post. Sorry for not being aware of the protocols. Any help would be appreciated - .

Thanks -


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## Marrick (May 2, 2007)

Hi and welcome.

Its OK to do that unless we think that you are promoting your own (or a friend's) listings. But please note that we do not give valuations in here - so please don't ask us 'how much do you think its worth?'.


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## nsmike (Jun 21, 2009)

Also we have a Russian Watch Forum where there are some real experts if your talking about vintage Russian watches. Another thing to be aware of is that some of the vintage models are still made, cost only slightly more than vintage, and are made with better materials (stainless vs chromed).


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## AmericanGentleman (Sep 12, 2011)

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices
*
This is one of the watches I was considering on eBay. I emailed this seller and others detailed questions and got the following response:*



> _Hi
> We check all our items with different professional watchman before selling to make sure its authentic & they all say that it is. Also through experience working with these types of watches we can recognize the movement & checked through catalogues to see the type of movement & it looks definitely like original. This two watch have 100% original movements (We check by manufacturer - is original signed and serial number is registered).
> I will send you images.
> When you buy two watch. I will send you with wooden box .
> ...


 *Another seller replied my questions (for a different listing):*



> _Excuse for my very bad English.
> 
> 1. I can send you photos on an e-mail. I have photo only that you see in listing.
> 
> ...



Thoughts?

Another seller sent me a similar reply and seemed professional and polite but I'm not sure what to think of a lot of these type of watches on eBay. They look nice to me but it would be helpful if I can ask how much these watches are worth. I know I was told not to ask - but can anyone provide at least some indication of what the movement is worth, provided it is in fact original and really antique.

Thanks.


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## Mirius (Mar 18, 2011)

I think the answers are reasonably open and honest. The difficulty is always that potential buyers don't actually read what is written but what they wish were written. Generally speaking the movements are indeed genuine. But that is about as far as the originality of these pieces go. The dials may even be original and genuine, though the paint on them is not. The rest is new and it converts a pocket watch worth tens or hundreds of dollars into something which sells for thousands of dollars.

As to what they are worth, I don't know. A collector of that marque probably wouldn't have one of these in their collection except as a curiosity or a parts source and then only if they can buy it very, very cheaply. I suspect that in the short term there is going to be market in reselling these but sooner or later the awareness level of these being, well fakes is too strong a word, so lets say not original is going to increase in the market and the bottom will drop out of them.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

What are they worth? :think: .... what ever you can get someone to pay for them. :-d

These watches have curiosity value only, not collector value. They sell for far more than I'll ever pay for them. The movements, while from currently prestigious companies, are no where near as good as many $300 American pocket watch movements (still encased in their original case!) ... and THOSE are collectible.

And don't think YOU can turn around and resell these mod watches for what you paid. Nubies think they are taking advantage of poor Ukrainians who have mysterious caches of valuable watches. But if YOU try to sell the watch, nubies will think YOU are trying to take advantage of them.


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## AmericanGentleman (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks for the replies.

I decided to give these _vintage _watches a pass and spend my money someplace else. The watches do look nice but as others mentioned they can be perceived as a fake and I would not want that. I intended to buy for my own personal use only - not for resale... although it would be nice to hold something that would appreciate in value.


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## Mirius (Mar 18, 2011)

If its for your own use, then for the money you would have spent on these you could have a very nice vintage watch. One from a good name and in original condition. Whether any watch will appreciate in value is really hard to predict because 'collectibles' are subject to fashion and the market in those rises and falls unpredictably, just as all investments do.


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## Seele (Jan 9, 2010)

To be honest, those "fantasy watches" are nothing more than "folk art", if it's better than pieces created for deceiving novices: I am sure there are those who would think they have a real bargain getting an as-new Soviet-built watch for the WWI German Air Force Spitfire Squadron for a mere thousand dollars, but the inherent value of the watch is practically zilch. Buy what you like, of course, just have to beware of the pitfalls.


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## bjohnson (Nov 28, 2006)

Seele said:


> WWI German Air Force Spitfire Squadron


Ha ha ha

It's funny because it's true

WWI German Spitfires

Ha ha ha


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## Seele (Jan 9, 2010)

bjohnson said:


> Ha ha ha
> 
> It's funny because it's true
> 
> ...


Actually some of them aren't that far off: the boys at the Russian forum always have a giggle at those brand-new 1980s Pobedas (which means "Victory" as in winning WWII) with dials proclaiming to be WWII German military issues made in the USSR!


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## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi AmericanGentleman,



AmericanGentleman said:


> I decided to give these _vintage _watches a pass and spend my money someplace else.


There are many attractive options. Even for nonsmokers lighting a cigar with a bundle of bucks is a better feeling than wearing scrap on the wrist.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

(I believe the Germans flew a couple of Spits and Hurricanes in _WW2.)

_I would love to know where the Ukrainian Watchmanufacturers get these PW from. They must get them very cheaply in Western Europe.
They are obviously imported recently.


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## Mirius (Mar 18, 2011)

I would guess that they are mostly the results of gold scrappage, so they likely have contacts in the jewellery trade.


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## eldarinn (Oct 18, 2007)

Guys I have to tell you, selling things in 'good faith' believing these are real stuff is one thing (although these are on most cases NOT).
I have studied some of those seller for a few months from time to time, trying to understand the logic of their sales and description. These people are definitely not stupid and will have a variety of reasons to convince you of the alleged 'authenticity' of their items. Here are some thoughts:

1. Most of the dials, cases, hands and crowns are either converted or made from scratch, some are completely grotesque and do not correspond to any reality or relevant time period. 
This is actually well disclosed on most cases so no complaints to the sellers, but certainly not factory made.
2. On the movements, you will notice that 'for some reason' there is a repetitive pattern of some "luxury" movements, such as a tonneau Zenith, a round men size JLC, a round pocket "IWC" (often also appears as Hy Moser) and a certain Omega midsize pocket movement.You will also notice that for some reason most of these never have a caliber number nor a serial number, not to mention they all have the same exact gilt finish; Surely proves these are on most cases Soviet crap movements made to look like famous antique watches. You may find it too complicated to deal with as you need to create tooling etc BUT:
A - Most of the mechanical Soviet manufacturers are out of business nowadays and surely many people with equipment and creative skills found their way to make money.
B- Considering the fact that with a day salary in the West you can live about a month in most parts of the Ukraine, making 600$ on average on a "Zenith", "JLC" and other fine brands, leaves you quite a large amount of money to deal with salaries and tooling for skilled workers so that sounds like a good deal. Too bad I don;t live in the Ukraine but rather in Israel where owners of copyrights press charges on such infringements before your thoughts even get to your mouth. 
3. The last typology is the "creative" ones when it comes to movements (We have all seen the creativity on the dials, Rest assured a Swiss angel loses his wings each time one such dial is created...) such as currently running "100% AUTHENTIC" ebay item 140604422237 - Rolex with a *532 cal* engraved on the movement, *SWISS MADE* engraved on the movement, and* ROLEX *engraved between them _in a different font and depth to the plate_. Not to mention there is no serial number and for some reason it looks just like a Cortebert ebauche caliber, how surprising...!

So if you don't buy the generic fake Swiss movements story, I am sure you would all agree that engraving ROLEX on a plate isn't really that big deal for someone trying to sell a *NON-ROLEX made **watch for now almost 2,000 $!*
I mean I have seen GOOD fakes in Thailand and Hong Kong selling for just 100$, so that's GOOD MONEY!
As you can see, not even a single hand was made by ROLEX on that particular watch...

Conclusions: If there is something here that is real it could be the good faith, and I doubt that as well.
I would say 50% completely fake from head to toe, 50% mixture of poor "Soviet creativity" over real basis.


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## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi Mirius,



Mirius said:


> I would guess that they are mostly the results of gold scrappage, so they likely have contacts in the jewellery trade.


Often the ingredients are left when scrapping gold watchs, but this is not actually necessary for these artists.

Let me demonstrate it with few samples (only one being a scrapping approach):

1) Buy a pedestrian Junghans in good shape for $79.20
bidfun-db Archive: Pocket Watches, Jewelry Watches: 1160: Gents Junghans Jota, ca. 1920
print a fancy dial, solder some lugs onto the case and sell it for $313.30
ANTIQUE GERMANY MEN'S WATCH JUNGHANS CAL.38 LACO AVIATOR LUFTWAFFE PILOTS WW2 | eBay

2) Buy a Vacheron & Constantin for $1307.57
bidfun-db Archive: Pocket Watches, Jewelry Watches: 1063: Gents Vacheron & Constantin, Lever Chronometer, Open Face, 14K, 1910
make a cheap case and sell it for $1578.00
ANTIQUE SWISS MEN
finally melt the case for another $650.00.

3) Buy a silver IWC for $475.22
bidfun-db Archive: Pocket Watches, Jewelry Watches: 1157: Gents IWC, Silver, 1916
print a fancy dial, solder some lugs onto the case and sell it for $1150.00
IWC Schaffhausen International Watch Co 1913 Silver | eBay
and sell the left over originall mint dial for another $100.00

As I couldn't find originals with exactly the same movement, I've chosen samples in higher quality and better shape. So the actual margin would be remarkably higher.

These margins need no low salaries in the Ukraine, they need just the fools who pay for the junk, instead of buying a soldering iron to earn their living.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


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## zephyrnoid (Mar 12, 2011)

man i take my hat off to you!
I'm a consultant and appreciate a consultants formatting and brilliant use of English (oh that my yiddish were 1/2 that good)
i've been studying ebay for 14 years and am ready to publish a book on everyone's 'darling' auction house. i hope you'll let me quote your post as an object example of due diligence?
Further- My studies have exposed my powers of perception of fraud, though a certain famous Israeli spoon bender had me totally fooled on a flight once 
It's not just the Ukranians it seems, but some Latin American and fewer Phillipine vendors as well of vintage watches.
Sigh! i have some very 'Rare' no-name watches coming in from Argentina...so that will be fun.
I'm following your amazing posts hence forth. Thanks.



eldarinn said:


> Guys I have to tell you, selling things in 'good faith' believing these are real stuff is one thing (although these are on most cases NOT).
> I have studied some of those seller for a few months from time to time, trying to understand the logic of their sales and description. These people are definitely not stupid and will have a variety of reasons to convince you of the alleged 'authenticity' of their items. Here are some thoughts:
> 
> 1. Most of the dials, cases, hands and crowns are either converted or made from scratch, some are completely grotesque and do not correspond to any reality or relevant time period.
> ...


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## eldarinn (Oct 18, 2007)

The "_Argentinian fiasco_" is a notable example as well, although less creative and far worse made.
Here we experience an irregular selection of mostly "Ulysse Nardin" using simple ebauche movements engraved with a machine to point U. Nardin brand (or the lesser version with laser etchings on the wheel above the mainspring) and back stamped with the same press mark (which has nothing to do with the real mark and its expected crispiness and depth), with obviously no corresponding serial numbers anywhere. I have also seen some, with absolutely no shame or gilt, placed in cheap chrome plated cases with a stainless back, like cheap 50s ebauches.

I also came across some Omega watches originating from South America that come with a local made gold cases.
The movements are in most cases legit and in good condition. While the cases are not made directly by Omega nor ordered by them at the local industry for Omega movements, in most cases the ARE solid gold as expected. This practice appears to be common in South America in general and in Argentina in particular, probably due to restrictions of precious metals importations.

Feel free to use this information in your research, may it halt others in the future.


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## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi eldarinn,



eldarinn said:


> ...although less creative and far worse made.


Hard to believe that this is still possible.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


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## joeuk (Feb 16, 2010)

Lately I have been wanting a preferably German made military watch if not military others will do. Just wouldn't mind a German made movement, but also at a cheap price, so wondering if you guys can point me in the right direction. Cheers


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## eldarinn (Oct 18, 2007)

Herr Doktor

When you thought you already saw everything, You will be surprised how stupid people can be ;-)


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## nsmike (Jun 21, 2009)

A long time ago working as a mechanic in the Army, I mentioned to a more senior NCO that if they made some changes in a piece of equiptment, that it would make it almost idiot proof. His reply was 'everytime they try to make something idiot proof they find a bigger idiot to prove them wrong'. This is just a variation on the theme.


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## Marrick (May 2, 2007)

I think you should start a new thread with this post Joe - this one's complicated enough already.:-d


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## MB53 (Sep 24, 2011)

Any thoughts on the 1900 1/4 repeater chronogrph (Patek) recently on ebay?


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## Seele (Jan 9, 2010)

MB53 said:


> Any thoughts on the 1900 1/4 repeater chronogrph (Patek) recently on ebay?


Don't give them any idea: soon enough we'll see an authentic 1900 Patek quarter-repeater chronograph... with its original quartz movement.


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## Ritter von Tarnack (Nov 1, 2014)

By the way, I came across this beautiful "old" German Army Watch (Vintage 1939 1945 Swiss Mens Watch Helios D12992H Wehrmacht German Army WWII | eBay ). According to the seller, the dial has been professionally restored. I do know of such services (here: https://www.jurgensgermany.com/vmar...category_id=60&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1 ) and, as the Watch looks original, I wanted to ask those with a little more experience if this watch is really "the real McCoy".


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## dom_ (Jan 29, 2012)

The engraving is wrong, the movement decoration is wrong, heavy corrosion on the balance cock. I would avoid.


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## Marrick (May 2, 2007)

dom_ said:


> The engraving is wrong, the movement decoration is wrong, heavy corrosion on the balance cock. I would avoid.


+1. Also note the 'night' picture of the luminous dial - but you can't see the hands 'cos they haven't bothered to relume them. Not that professional.


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## Renny (Sep 15, 2014)

The very fact that the eBay watches go for the price they do is a hint at their lack of provenance. Compare them for example to this watch from a vintage dealer. Vintage German Military Watch For Sale UK | Luftwaffe 1943 | Vintage Watches

Nice explanation on the numbering is contained in the sales pitch.


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## Shum (May 24, 2013)

I got so many AS 1130 watches I could be rich with some tinkering.


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## laikrodukas (Sep 5, 2013)

Got any AS 1950/51 ?


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## Shum (May 24, 2013)

Don't remember seeing one in my big box or my small box of watches but then I haven't looked for one so I might.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Yes - but it's in a watch! 

Hartmut Richter


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## Shum (May 24, 2013)

Actually I know there is no such movement in the small box of watches as I went through all the watches in search of AS movements. :-d


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

laikrodukas said:


> Got any AS 1950/51 ?


These may need work............francis.antictac | eBay


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## Ritter von Tarnack (Nov 1, 2014)

Thanks for the information! Anyway, this justifies fully the price - for 299 bucks, it's the cheapest one I could find!


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Renny said:


> The very fact that the eBay watches go for the price they do is a hint at their lack of provenance. Compare them for example to this watch from a vintage dealer. Vintage German Military Watch For Sale UK | Luftwaffe 1943 | Vintage Watches
> 
> Nice explanation on the numbering is contained in the sales pitch.


FYI, You need to fairly 'careful' with this site you linked in - this seller has been discussed on numerous occasions as not fully providing 'true provenience' in the watches offered....

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalkk


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## Renny (Sep 15, 2014)

Sdasurrey said:


> FYI, You need to fairly 'careful' with this site you linked in - this seller has been discussed on numerous occasions as not fully providing 'true provenience' in the watches offered....


Thanks for that, I've been considering pulling the trigger on a piece he has for a while. It is a more modern watch though. I was a bit suspicious of his site anyway as he claims to have a huge number of watches but never seems to change the ones on display.


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## Ritter von Tarnack (Nov 1, 2014)

There's a flea market close to where I live. I've seen various stuff there, and a lot of old watches, some working, others - no. I even found there two old Ruhlas. But no WW2 german service watch. And so, this is my question: do you really think one can find a vintage, genuine WW2 german service wristwatch, the kind of timepieces with small seconds, AS1130, black face and those lovely Radium-coated hands? 

(Don't tell me my hopes are useless....  )


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## laikrodukas (Sep 5, 2013)

Depends on country  In my country flea markets are useless. Even the simpliest watches are priced like a fortune.


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## mkws (May 11, 2014)

Certainly depends on the country. As to fleamarkets... Don't attend the big ones. Try some countryside fleamarkets. I believe such watches can be found in there... Countryside has many treasures to offer. In the 1980s, my father's friend was going 'round small villages, and was buying out the motorbikes that Germans left behind, like Zundapp or BMW Sahara, which stood for almost 40 years hidden in sheds, and was able to get them for almost no money. I think the same applies for watches- in the cities, on those massive fleamarkets, people know what they're selling, and the prices they put on everything are exorbitant. But in the countryside, where you still can find that sort of people, to whom all those brands with fancy names of good quality but underrated by the unknowledgeable plain folks ring no bell at all.


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## laikrodukas (Sep 5, 2013)

Best i can find in country side are russian watches...


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## Ritter von Tarnack (Nov 1, 2014)

mkws said:


> Certainly depends on the country. As to fleamarkets... Don't attend the big ones. Try some countryside fleamarkets. I believe such watches can be found in there... Countryside has many treasures to offer. In the 1980s, my father's friend was going 'round small villages, and was buying out the motorbikes that Germans left behind, like Zundapp or BMW Sahara, which stood for almost 40 years hidden in sheds, and was able to get them for almost no money. I think the same applies for watches- in the cities, on those massive fleamarkets, people know what they're selling, and the prices they put on everything are exorbitant. But in the countryside, where you still can find that sort of people, to whom all those brands with fancy names of good quality but underrated by the unknowledgeable plain folks ring no bell at all.


It does make sense, but I doubt the folks who sell wache discovered among all the junk they found in a cellar or in an attic are watch specialists... Considering all the older watch brands which don't exist anymore. 
But anyway, thanks for the advice.


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## Wibbs (Mar 7, 2014)

FWIW, I have found good original watches from Ukraine(and Russia and Poland etc). Are they to be avoided by the newcomer to collecting? Hell yes, you really need to know what you're looking for, but in certain areas you can pick up some nice pieces. WW2 German DH's and KM's for example(a large amount of which were brought home as war booty). Among the over polished and replated examples some good ones are to be found. You also get some nice 30's pilots watches from time to time.

In some ways, at least in my humble opinion, those countries have become a boogyman where the tale grows in the telling. The vast majority of the so called "expert fakers" are anything but. They're nearly always _incredibly_ obvious, to appeal to the passerby and the newbie. Obvious _If_ you have some research under your belt. Would I be extremely cautious? Yes. Would I automatically discount them? No.


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## MitternachtXII (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi all, I'm new here and just looking for some wise eyes. This thread appears to be dead but I'll ask on a long shot anyhow. I'm considering buying this piece, does it look authentic or is it a reproduction ? Thanks a bunch  

:/ apparently I'm unable to add a link so just head over to liveauctioneers.com and search WWII THIRD REICH GERMAN WAFFEN SS POCKET WATCHThanks again


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