# Future of Panerai.....Opinions



## TheGenevaSeal (May 10, 2012)

So i have been a very loyal Panerai collector and have a collection of about 3 at any given time....I will sell some models to make room for new pieces obviously...what I have seen lately is a DRASTIC decrease and demand for pre-owned Panerais...what do you guys think?

Also, I am getting tired of the AD's never knowing when or what is coming out from Panerai...seems like they keep their AD in the dark


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## Trel (Nov 21, 2009)

I think it may be reasonable to assume (though maybe not safe to say) that Panerai's time in the sun is beginning to fade a little. Dare I say it, maybe they're becoming a little passé? It's not like you don't see them on the wrist of every junior executive who doesn't want to buy the Submariner that every other junior executive has.

I love the brand, but it's been years since they've put out a model that I really got amped over (even the 372 didn't have the same impact as the original 'Fiddy', the 127.) Everything they put out is a special edition and it creates a sort of brand-fatigue. You get super-excited about a model, then don't get one because the flippers got them all...but then a new special edition comes out, which you also don't get because of the flippers (and well-connected 'Ristis)...but then a new special edition comes out...

Eventually, you just get tired of being teased and you start to realize that one model blurs into the next...

Basically, I miss the old days of the brand. I don't think I'm alone in this, either. I had six of them at one point or another and I've got rid of them all except for the Zero. I don't see myself buying another post-Vendome Panerai for a long time.


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## TheGenevaSeal (May 10, 2012)

I couldnt have said it better myself! I love your comment about the junior executives..because its SOOOO true! I agree though, I think that their time to shine is fading. I think even the ristis are getting sick of being teased....and now they seem to be shifting gears to the boutique only movement...i agree I still have my 104 but i think i am done with them... not too mention their new pricing is nuts! my pam 90 im trying to sell retails at 8300!!!! thats a new submariner!


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

The future will continue to look good and don't blame the AD's.


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## G.Mac (Sep 4, 2011)

I think the reason why there are more and more pre-owned pieces is that because Panerai keep releasing new models every year and the buyers want newer models with the in-house movements. So the demand for the older models is just not there. I think the future is going to be bright what with the ever expanding amount of Paneristi. I think the fact that there are more pre-owned pieces should be an encouragement for those who wanted Panerai but wont buy it at retail prices.


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## handwound (Feb 11, 2006)

I don't know about the passe bit - I still see way more Rollies, Omegas and Breits than I ever see PAMs out and about. 

I think a big part of the problem is their ever increasing initiative to move further and further "up-market". I mean, I love the 372, love it. I think it's a wonderful piece and I want one badly. However, the fact remains that it's a $10K watch with 100M WR, SS case and only hours/minutes complications. I understand that the move to in-house movements was needed, but the premium they are charging for these in-house movements with zero up-market complications is excessive.

For $10K, there are a LOT of watches available that are from prestigious marques that are more impressive on paper.


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## timefleas (Oct 10, 2008)

I have not, and will never, buy a Pam new from an AD--the prices are too high, the movements too simple (to worry about on or off warranty)--and while I haven't noticed a major glut of used Pams out there as opposed to any other recent point in time, I do agree with the sentiment that Panerai really hasn't introduced anything of much interest lately. I also think that the models they have released over the last 12 years are all much too derivative, each too similar to the next, and for that fact alone, I do see a gradual loss of interest by many people in the brand, over the years. It would be nice to see them break some new ground, and until they do, I also think that their star in the traditional markets is indeed fading, as their prices are rising. I don't really care, though, as I love the two I have, I don't miss the six or seven I sold, and I am not looking for any new Pam additions to the family--and if I were, I would go back to trolling the used listings.

Peter


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## Trel (Nov 21, 2009)

Passé doesn't necessarily mean common. Considering the restrictions that OP puts on production, there will hardly be as many Panerais in existence as Rolex produces in a single year (hyperbole.) However, seeing a Panerai on someone's wrist doesn't really carry the same thrill that it used to. Back when they were "reasonably" inexpensive but very rare, you'd see important people with this giant thing on their wrist with a very strange appeal: huge, hand-wound, no complications, no bracelet. Nowadays it's just, "Oh, there's a guy with a Panerai" and it's not like 44mm or even 47mm is all that uncommon in other brands.

Now think about when you see a Hublot Big Bang or an AP Royal Oak Offshore in the wild. You may think, "ugh, that thing is tacky," but there is a definite buzz in seeing one.

Now, I believe Trent is correct in their move upmarket hurting them. The court that they want to play on has a lot of very heavy hitters, most of which can take a big bite out of Panerai. In addition, to move upmarket, they've cost themselves a lot of what made them cool in the first place: their robust simplicity. A ceramic case can't take nearly the beating that a steel case can. The P.3000 movement is, at best, as accurate as a Unitas, but not nearly as robust or cheap to repair.

Most importantly, the people who can afford these kind of watches have already owned a Panerai or two and have moved past the brand to collect something else and everyone else is left out in the cold.



handwound said:


> I don't know about the passe bit - I still see way more Rollies, Omegas and Breits than I ever see PAMs out and about.
> 
> I think a big part of the problem is their ever increasing initiative to move further and further "up-market". I mean, I love the 372, love it. I think it's a wonderful piece and I want one badly. However, the fact remains that it's a $10K watch with 100M WR, SS case and only hours/minutes complications. I understand that the move to in-house movements was needed, but the premium they are charging for these in-house movements with zero up-market complications is excessive.
> 
> For $10K, there are a LOT of watches available that are from prestigious marques that are more impressive on paper.


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## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

I agree with the pricing problem,nowadays i can only buy pam in europe where i can get tax refund (after the tax refund,372 will cost around us$ 8000-8500)

I do buy and collect pams because i like the (previous)pricing and simplicity of the watch though,i personally find the dial of rolex or breitling too busy and the price of ROO too high,however with the rising price,i think i will stop buying brand new pam and buy only the pre owned (pam 104 for less than 3000 euros seems like a good deal compared to brand new for around 5000 euros)

Personally i'm looking forward for pam 441 (on retail price and tax refund) and that's it..got no more pams that i want or like..


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## DocRandy (Mar 9, 2007)

From a guy that has owned over 50 Panerai watches from 1998-2004 I stopped buying them when the PAM 24 went from $2550 through the roof. Yes I could get a PAM 24 from the dealers at $2550, the PAM 29 was $2400, PAM 51 was $2750, PAM 90 was $2800, PAM 89 was $3100. Yes even the PAM 112 was a mere $2200. Well you know what they are asking now and these prices were from Dealers back in the day. The 3 I own under my signature are keepers and most likely the last Panerai watches I have unless I refi my home.
Still love the watch, but for the $$ I stick with Sinn and Ball


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## htc8p (Apr 1, 2009)

panerai has an appeal and will always have a place in my collection. but i think more than one is going to be boring.


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## tech_controller (Nov 28, 2007)

DocRandy said:


> From a guy that has owned over 50 Panerai watches from 1998-2004 I stopped buying them when the PAM 24 went from $2550 through the roof. Yes I could get a PAM 24 from the dealers at $2550, the PAM 29 was $2400, PAM 51 was $2750, PAM 90 was $2800, PAM 89 was $3100. Yes even the PAM 112 was a mere $2200. Well you know what they are asking now and these prices were from Dealers back in the day. The 3 I own under my signature are keepers and most likely the last Panerai watches I have unless I refi my home.
> Still love the watch, but for the $$ I stick with Sinn and Ball


I too remember those "daze"....Panerai won't get my money anymore. I'm not paying over $5k for an ETA 6497 movment....and their in-house movements have had tons of problems. If I have to scratch that panny itch, i'll look to the secondary market.

My money (for now) is with Rolex and AP...I think Panerai have hurt themselves trying to go upscale with the big watch houses.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

Like everything else that enthusiasts desire, as an item becomes more popular - thus more common - the originality we enjoyed is minimized. This said, I like several qualities of the Panerai brand and currently have two. I'll keep these and hope they are reliable, but won't likely add another in the foreseeable future. While the brand may have plateaued for now I don't see it dying off either.


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## Watch_guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I am going to disagree a bit with the masses. I think that Panerai used to be a brand that appealed to a specific market, then recently it became "cool" to be different. I cant tell you how many people I know that bought a Panerai and admitted they didnt really like them at first, but they came around because they wanted to be in the club. they forced themselves to like it.....guess what, it's okay to not like Panerai!
In my opinion, Panerai will continue to be a strong contender in the luxury watch segment, but maybe some of the fly by night fans will move on. 
You cant watch an NBA press onference without seeing several AP Roo's, and every one seems to be a variation of itself. That trend will pass at some point, but I'm sure the true fans of the brand will stick around.
There will always be trends in the luxury market, but if the company is smart they will not mistake it for sustainable growth. They will instead, capitalize, then return to business as usual. 
I am okay with the pricing of the Panerai's even though, I would like to get a 372 for 5,000. I have followed the brand for 15 years and will continue happily.
i think the other piece of this is that AD's have begun trash talking the brand in many cases because they are bitter about the new shift to boutiques....dont mistake that for the brand fading.
as they say " fashion is fleeting, but style is timeless"


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## VMM (Dec 24, 2008)

What's upsetting about Panerai is that they're coming off as a company interested in making a quick buck. I realize Rolex is much, much bigger with deeper pockets and sells many more watches but I've managed to accumulate more of these than PAMS. I've called to be on waiting lists for at least 5-6 watches the past few years. This includes the boutique as well as my AD. The AD doesn't get any of these special editions and as of a few months ago had yet to receive a 372. 390s or whatever was the latest greatest releases from SIHH are not available. No luck whatsoever. I think that releasing tons of these special editions and jacking up their prices are going to alienate a lot of the people who made them successful. The one watch which had an undecorated base ETA movement was very concerning considering the money spent by customers. I love the watches but also think that they should be made available in a reasonable fashion. Being on waiting lists for 2 years for multiple watches without a single call and then seeing these same watches being flipped by folks who somehow managed to get 4-5 of them is a good way to drive away customers.


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## diosrl (Nov 28, 2010)

Panerai will do just fine. Brand purists will find another brand to look into. All companies, or at least all big companies have to increase their profits. Unfortunately this reason being the only reason behind producing that piece of luxury watch. So every single action is there to make a buck. Longer the company is in the market, better it will be in making money.

Enthusiasm and money don't go well together. You have to be a good manager, do marketing plans, whatsoever, in order to attract the big money. I have several projects which did not pass the startup zone just because the enthusiasm for specific products/services, for quality, delivering to your audience that kind of quality and uniqueness, no matter your products are, is killing your profits.

What Panerai did was to build a strong base of fans, on which the growth initially came from, until the brand was internationally aknowledged, and the usual luxury shopper took the brand into consideration. Now they need big sales and higher prices, and the original Panerai lover cannot be their target anymore, simply because they are not forming enough audience. You need to go the Rolex way if you want to satisfy your stakeholders. Meaning higher priced products, finding people to buy them only because it's a Panerai and not because of that clean dial and small seconds, or not because it's a 127 and it's beautiful and rare. No, they need to sell brand new shiny expensive luxury watch to everybody on Earth as soon as possible


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## EL_Chingon (Sep 20, 2006)

tech_controller said:


> I too remember those "daze"....Panerai won't get my money anymore. I'm not paying over $5k for an ETA 6497 movment....and their in-house movements have had tons of problems. If I have to scratch that panny itch, i'll look to the secondary market.
> 
> My money (for now) is with Rolex and AP...I think Panerai have hurt themselves trying to go upscale with the big watch houses.


I was in Santa Monica CA yesterday and was looking at Omega's, and I saw a gentleman looking around and he notice my panerai. He asked how I liked my 005, and told him I love it, then we started to talk about watches, but he stated, that he would not pay $5K+ for a pocket watch movement. After a little chuckle, I start to think about it, he is kind of right. Although the prices did not go up for the 000 and 005, but they are expensive for simple movements, especially three or more years ago, they where in the low $4K. That was the second time I heard someone make that statement, pocket watch movement. :think: Made me start thinking about that.


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## timefleas (Oct 10, 2008)

All of these posts are of course simply speculation, but in response to _diosrl_'s last post, that Panerai must keep accelerating pricing and continue to further distance themselves from their original market base--that is simply one out of many successful business models to follow, it isn't their only choice, nor necessarily their most profitable one.

Just for argument's sake, one could go in the opposite direction--once the brand has been established (it has), and ignoring the indignities some may suffer by the loss of the exclusivity of their brand, then production of many simple (_relatively _inexpensive) models could be accelerated, putting a Pam in every home that wanted one. Companies such as Seiko* and Citizen* have done pretty well by following this model, while still producing a few exceptional (expensive) models for the watch "connoisseurs."

The options on how profit is made, and what clientele to target are wide-ranging--history suggests that targeting multiple markets can often be quite profitable, just as targeting only an elite class of buyers, or a more modest class of buyers. Panerai does not _have _to abandon the target base upon which they achieved much of their early successes, and still be competitive in other newly developed markets--in simplest terms, it does not have to be an _either/or_ situation, but possibly a _both/more_ scenario.

*_I am not making any comparisons between Panerai and Seiko and/or Citizen, other than to offer them as successful business models that cater to more than one type of buyer._

Peter










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## Travelller (Apr 24, 2012)

Excellent thread, thanks to all for your insight. While I have been studying Panerai's history and I admire their unique design principles, it's hard to justify today's prices. I only wish I had taken interest in OP earlier, during the "SlyTech" days...


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## enzo panuccio (Jul 14, 2009)

Travelller said:


> Excellent thread.... ...I only wish I had taken interest in OP earlier, during the "SlyTech" days...


haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

don't we all. :-(

I bought my first nice watch in 1999 and when I say nice watch, it was a quartz TAG 2000. 
My best mate, who worked in a pawn shop at the time, told me I was crazy, TAG's would go out of style within 2 years and I'd burn all my money on it. 
Well I wore it every day for 10 years and TAG still make a near identical watch today, and I could get more for it today if I sold it than what I paid 13 years ago.

Having said that (TAG quartz) we are not talking about a lot of money. Back in 1999 if instead of hearing how spending money on a TAG watch was a money burner, if I was told about this military brand Panerai now selling to the public??? :-d
Imagine buying up on Panerai back in 1999. :-d:-d

Last August I bought myself a new Limited Ed. Montegrappa Modigliani fountain pen (xxxx/3350). The same friend laughed his head off and told me how crazy I was... "$$$ on a pen?" It was so deja vu hearing him use what was probably exactly the same words to describe me and the whole concept, of how stupid it is to be spending that sort of $$$ on just a pen, as he did 13 years ago about a watch.
That pen now, in less than 12 months, is worth double what I payed for it! haaaaaa :-d

Hindsight is a cruel thing!
*"I have no desire to suffer twice, in reality and then in retrospect." 
*― Sophocles, _Oedipus Rex_

_I love that quote!
_
roger


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## Cybotron (Dec 7, 2006)

I do like the brand but not as much as I once did. I think they really need to come up with some newer designs. Pricing is way overboard also. I think the brand doesn't seem too be as popular as it once was before.


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## Cybotron (Dec 7, 2006)

timefleas said:


> I have not, and will never, buy a Pam new from an AD--the prices are too high, the movements too simple (to worry about on or off warranty)--and while I haven't noticed a major glut of used Pams out there as opposed to any other recent point in time, I do agree with the sentiment that Panerai really hasn't introduced anything of much interest lately. I also think that the models they have released over the last 12 years are all much too derivative, each too similar to the next, and for that fact alone, I do see a gradual loss of interest by many people in the brand, over the years. It would be nice to see them break some new ground, and until they do, I also think that their star in the traditional markets is indeed fading, as their prices are rising. I don't really care, though, as I love the two I have, I don't miss the six or seven I sold, and I am not looking for any new Pam additions to the family--and if I were, I would go back to trolling the used listings.
> 
> Peter


I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

timefleas said:


> I have not, and will never, buy a Pam new from an AD--the prices are too high, the movements too simple (to worry about on or off warranty)--and while I haven't noticed a major glut of used Pams out there as opposed to any other recent point in time, I do agree with the sentiment that Panerai really hasn't introduced anything of much interest lately. I also think that the models they have released over the last 12 years are all much too derivative, each too similar to the next, and for that fact alone, I do see a gradual loss of interest by many people in the brand, over the years. It would be nice to see them break some new ground, and until they do, I also think that their star in the traditional markets is indeed fading, as their prices are rising. I don't really care, though, as I love the two I have, I don't miss the six or seven I sold, and I am not looking for any new Pam additions to the family--and if I were, I would go back to trolling the used listings.
> 
> Peter


Well said.

Newer Pam's seem to be too focused on looking "vintage" or some other gimmick. The older models, while having very common movements, stood out and were innovative for their time - and still look great today. For the most part I have moved on to other brands that seem to be offering better value, innovative design or better technology. That doesn't mean Panerai isnt as popular as ever, then again total production is still way, way below most other brands so supply and demand alone will carry the brand a long way. And lets not forget those constant price increases keep the pre-owned market values up as well...


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

westlake - do you own all of those in your signature??? OMG!!!

*PANERAI: 000, 004, 023, 024, 025, 027, 028, 029, 048, 063, 064, 074, 086, 087, 088, 089, 090, 093, 104, 111, 112, 114, 156, 162, 163, 164, 170, 173, 176, 183, 184, 186, 190, 196, 199, 201, 210, 213, 214, 222, 232, 242, 243, 246, 252, 268, 288, 292, 305, 308, 318, 321, 323, 338, 343, 346, 359, 362, 371, 380, 384, 407, 417

*


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

Hoppyjr said:


> westlake - do you own all of those in your signature??? OMG!!!
> 
> *PANERAI: 000, 004, 023, 024, 025, 027, 028, 029, 048, 063, 064, 074, 086, 087, 088, 089, 090, 093, 104, 111, 112, 114, 156, 162, 163, 164, 170, 173, 176, 183, 184, 186, 190, 196, 199, 201, 210, 213, 214, 222, 232, 242, 243, 246, 252, 268, 288, 292, 305, 308, 318, 321, 323, 338, 343, 346, 359, 362, 371, 380, 384, 407, 417
> 
> *


Yes and some doubles which arent listed. Kinda went crazy with the Pams for awhile.


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## Redsnake (Sep 12, 2007)

westlake said:


> Yes and some doubles which arent listed. Kinda went crazy with the Pams for awhile.


Wowzers... and I think my 2 (417 & 24) are enough... ha.

which of those multiple Pams would you say is your favorite(s)?


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

My favorite Radiomir is the Pam 190 (with the JLC movement) for every day and Pam 201 for special occasions (cause its so very rare)

I have several Luminor favorites:
Pam 192 which is made out of Tantalum
Pam 63 (wear this the most, its on a very cool vintage ammo strap)
Pam 111 (doesn’t get much better than this "basic" polished Panerai)
Pam 24a (polished submersible)
Pam 371 (big, bold, titanium, blue face, special edition)

I try and wear all of them from time to time. Don’t get me started on straps and how that completely changes look and feel of each watch. Each is so different, which is probably why I love Panerai so much.
Not as much a fan of the more recent models, which is why I have mostly moved on to dive watches these days. So much variety and creativity there – even in tribute to the basic submariner style.


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

Synequano said:


> I agree with the pricing problem,nowadays i can only buy pam in europe where i can get tax refund (after the tax refund,372 will cost around us$ 8000-8500)
> 
> I do buy and collect pams because i like the (previous)pricing and simplicity of the watch though,i personally find the dial of rolex or breitling too busy and the price of ROO too high,however with the rising price,i think i will stop buying brand new pam and buy only the pre owned (pam 104 for less than 3000 euros seems like a good deal compared to brand new for around 5000 euros)
> 
> Personally i'm looking forward for pam 441 (on retail price and tax refund) and that's it..got no more pams that i want or like..


Agree.. On everything, down to RO being overpriced (a thread I put up previously on TRF).. But as well as sourcing per-owners Pams, I'd certainly look out for special pieces new, both for what obvious things new gives u, as well as rising value over retail.. IF u buy the correct pieces, ofcourse


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

westlake said:


> Yes and some doubles which arent listed. Kinda went crazy with the Pams for awhile.


All this.... And no 372 OR 382??


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

Watch_guy said:


> I am going to disagree a bit with the masses. I think that Panerai used to be a brand that appealed to a specific market, then recently it became "cool" to be different. I cant tell you how many people I know that bought a Panerai and admitted they didnt really like them at first, but they came around because they wanted to be in the club. they forced themselves to like it.....guess what, it's okay to not like Panerai!
> In my opinion, Panerai will continue to be a strong contender in the luxury watch segment, but maybe some of the fly by night fans will move on.
> You cant watch an NBA press onference without seeing several AP Roo's, and every one seems to be a variation of itself. That trend will pass at some point, but I'm sure the true fans of the brand will stick around.
> There will always be trends in the luxury market, but if the company is smart they will not mistake it for sustainable growth. They will instead, capitalize, then return to business as usual.
> ...


Well said.


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

Very interesting thread!


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## serge70 (Nov 16, 2010)

Trel said:


> Passé doesn't necessarily mean common. Considering the restrictions that OP puts on production, there will hardly be as many Panerais in existence as Rolex produces in a single year (hyperbole.) However, seeing a Panerai on someone's wrist doesn't really carry the same thrill that it used to. Back when they were "reasonably" inexpensive but very rare, you'd see important people with this giant thing on their wrist with a very strange appeal: huge, hand-wound, no complications, no bracelet. Nowadays it's just, "Oh, there's a guy with a Panerai" and it's not like 44mm or even 47mm is all that uncommon in other brands.
> 
> Now think about when you see a Hublot Big Bang or an AP Royal Oak Offshore in the wild. You may think, "ugh, that thing is tacky," but there is a definite buzz in seeing one.
> 
> ...


This is splendidly put & spot on.I bought my 001 in 2000 for £1600,I knew I was getting a 6497,which was great as i knew i'd never have to have it serviced by Panerai so could never be held to ransom by them.

The watch was a present to myself that I found hugely appealing at the time-Beautifully made but also simple.

They seem to have lost their way since then chasing after the Chinese middle classes.I would view Panerai as heroic in some way if they had not increased their prices,apart from adjusting for inflation over the years;Holding a more traditional line of simple,high quality pieces,offering only a few models.

Others here have put it better than I can..


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## serge70 (Nov 16, 2010)

dup post,oops


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## Matty01 (Sep 6, 2011)

Companies are entitled to make a profit and their motive should be to maximise profit. I agree that Pams appear to be overpriced if you are simply looking at the movement. But for me there is no getting past the class of the 176 I own ... and bought trade plus cash for a 1 yo. 








I find it absolutely stunning.


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## SeikoSickness (May 31, 2007)

Panerai models looks the same and are derivative? Have you seen a Rolex lately? It's the same Rolex that was made 50 years ago. Yes, some tech has changed, but each year it's the same thing...over...and over...and over.

Personally, I got the Panerai bug about 4 years ago. Prior to that, I thought they were over priced and didn't understand the "big deal" about them. Then I saw a few in the flesh at a get together and tried them on. I took a chance and bought a used 111 from a really good guy. The watch looked like it was brand new...without the brand new price tag. I wore that 111 every single day for close to two years.

Then, I bought a 312 while on vacation in Barcelona. The VAT refund certainly helped to seal the deal and the Euro was starting to dip at that time. Much like the 111, I've been wearing it 80% to 90% of the time.

Then, I bought the last production run of the 233 with the disc. Once again, second hand and a great deal. While I don't wear it as much as the 312, it's a great time piece with fantastic complications.

Personally, I like the fact that Panerai is moving towards in-house movements. I'm now saving up for a 422...I want that 3 day hand wound movement.

While I have plenty of other brands in the watch boxes and I have bought and sold a few, I don't think I'll sell any of the Panerai's...the design, styling, movements just resonate too well with my tastes and personality...


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## handwound (Feb 11, 2006)

I like the move to in-house movements, too, Marcin. I just don't like the $10K price tag that seems to be de rigueur from Panerai's perspective just because it has an in-house movement even without any increased complications.


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## Travelller (Apr 24, 2012)

*$10K for a Valjoux...*



handwound said:


> ...I just don't like the $10K price tag ... just because it has an in-house movement even without any increased complications.


I fully agree that OP is getting out of control with their pricing scheme. However I have the exact _opposite_ problem you do; I don't like* the $5K~10K price tag on a PAM with a _UNITAS-now-ETA_ movement _(albeit a very reliable movement indeed)_ or modified _Valjoux_... .

If I won the lottery, I'd be shopping for a 6154 w/618 or 6152/1 w/240 SF but I doubt I'd fork out 5~6 figures on a Pre-V... :think:

_*Of course if I wanted the coolest daily *beater* I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used logo or Marina _:-!


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## enzo panuccio (Jul 14, 2009)

*Re: $10K for a Valjoux...*



Travelller said:


> _*Of course if I wanted the coolest daily *beater* I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used logo or Marina _:-!


+1
oh yeah, every risti should have a scratched up zero, 112 or 24 as a daily beater! :-!


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

*Re: $10K for a Valjoux...*



enzo panuccio said:


> +1
> oh yeah, every risti should have a scratched up zero, 112 or 24 as a daily beater! :-!


Well, what is the best material for a daily beater?? Not happy at a small ding at the edge of the bezel and case at the same spot that came out of nowhere on my 372! So is SS the best for everyday?! I like the look of polished Steel. Even the brushed steel of the crown guard is oh SO beautiful! But I hate scratches to the metal (as mush as I don't really mind a few on the plexi).


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## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

My daily beater pam is 111E
Polished SS is easier to maintain,just keep a cape cod cloth handy
Brushed SS is harder to retouch IMO


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

Synequano said:


> My daily beater pam is 111E
> Polished SS is easier to maintain,just keep a cape cod cloth handy
> Brushed SS is harder to retouch IMO


But what about titanium for daily use? Though I'm not a fan of its mat appearance.. still though Matty01's 176 (up here) is BEAUTIFUL.


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## Watch_guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Amnaggar said:


> But what about titanium for daily use? Though I'm not a fan of its mat appearance.. still though Matty01's 176 (up here) is BEAUTIFUL.


Depends...if you want to be able to easily get rid of scratches as they appear, go for polished ss. Titanium will show shiny scratches fairly easily, but over time they oxidize and fade. A pencil eraser will help speed that process, but I think ss is the best choice and it is typically less expensive when comparing two similar models if you want an every day watch.


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## Matty01 (Sep 6, 2011)

Hey, thanks for the 176 love. I have owned 3 ti watches and never had any issues. Just got to be a bit careful, and or prepared to wait for oxidation. Im not normally a ti fan, but it works incredibly well in context of the very simple 176 dial presentation.


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## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

Cannot say how well the Ti model resist daily wear,my 177 is O stamp,gotta wait several years before I can comment on the durability of the material..
My 351 is also O stamp as well
As for the sub model,the thick bezel can be troublesome,and it is difficult to rebrush the bezel (based on my experience with pam 24)


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

Matty01 said:


> Hey, thanks for the 176 love. I have owned 3 ti watches and never had any issues. Just got to be a bit careful, and or prepared to wait for oxidation. Im not normally a ti fan, but it works incredibly well in context of the very simple 176 dial presentation.


It sure does! Never thought I'll like a Ti until now 
Anyway, I think we veered off topic  As for the future of Panerai, don't we always say to know your future, you must never forget your past... Well, I think there's no doubt Panerai knows its past very very well and is so entrenched and proud of, and basing itself on, its history and is doing very well as a result (with its heritage pieces mostly).


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## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

Back to the topic:

I think the decision from ETA to stop selling their movement to another company(with the exception of tudor)may affect pam,since almost all entry level model are either powered by 6497 or modified 7750

If Pam goes the in house only route,within a few years the brand will be unaffordable for most.. (with 312 as entry level luminor,the annual price increase may put it in 7-8k eur zone,around 9-11k us$) 

The introduction of composite models may attract new customers,but the purist may not be convinced(real Pam should be made of SS or Ti)especially with the problems with 339 and cancellation of 386 and 375. Even there is a problem with ceramic on 438's bracelet,that's why it is not out yet
Pam should get their act together and sort out the problem with their modern material in order to fight with the big boys

Another post-ETA problem is finding the replacement movement for 44 mm luminor and 45 mm radiomir case 
because i heard P9000 is too thick for standard luminor and radiomir,whereas P3000 is too big to be placed in smaller case..I guess P999 may make a comeback or pam will make do with another 'swiss' movement

Another thing to consider,the in house movement will be more expensive to service in comparison with ETA,this may put off some potential buyer

Personally I got bored with The models being offered by pam with the exception of 441 as the affordable ceramic luminor GMT
As the brand becoming more mainstream and popular,its exclusivity (and appeal) also fading,at least that's how I see it


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## Fitzs (Oct 8, 2012)

SeikoSickness said:


> Panerai models looks the same and are derivative? Have you seen a Rolex lately? It's the same Rolex that was made 50 years ago. Yes, some tech has changed, but each year it's the same thing...over...and over...and over.
> 
> Personally, I got the Panerai bug about 4 years ago. Prior to that, I thought they were over priced and didn't understand the "big deal" about them. Then I saw a few in the flesh at a get together and tried them on. I took a chance and bought a used 111 from a really good guy. The watch looked like it was brand new...without the brand new price tag. I wore that 111 every single day for close to two years.
> 
> ...


You're bang on with your Rolex comment you made in the first paragraph. I agree on all points here.


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

Fitzs said:


> You're bang on with your Rolex comment you made in the first paragraph. I agree on all points here.


X2 here.. And I've always said "I would never wear a Rolex" on forums, but objectively speaking they are successful in their strategy, don't u think? Successful or not, it's not for me.


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

Synequano said:


> Back to the topic:
> 
> I think the decision from ETA to stop selling their movement to another company(with the exception of tudor)may affect pam,since almost all entry level model are either powered by 6497 or modified 7750
> 
> ...


Very valid and interesting point u make about how current ETA movement pam entry piece prices would fare in the (near!) future. Does that call for investing some cash in some high selling base models now?
Plus, I like the 441 very much indeed!


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## SeikoSickness (May 31, 2007)

Synequano said:


> If Pam goes the in house only route,within a few years the brand will be unaffordable for most.. (with 312 as entry level luminor,the annual price increase may put it in 7-8k eur zone,around 9-11k us$)


I must be a bit out of touch regarding retail pricing. I bought my 312 in August 2010 and I paid around 7,800€ in Barcelona. Did prices drop in 2011 and 2012?



Synequano said:


> Another post-ETA problem is finding the replacement movement for 44 mm luminor and 45 mm radiomir case
> because i heard P9000 is too thick for standard luminor and radiomir,whereas P3000 is too big to be placed in smaller case..I guess P999 may make a comeback or pam will make do with another 'swiss' movement


Personally, I prefer the thicker 1950 style cases. While I loved my 111 and will hold on to it, I pretty much stopped wearing it after I got my 312. For some reason, the proportions of the new case feel better to me. Yes, it's thicker and more of an issue when I'm wearing it with a suit. But, I'll suffer a bit...;-)



Synequano said:


> Another thing to consider,the in house movement will be more expensive to service in comparison with ETA,this may put off some potential buyer


I haven't had to service any of mine yet....we'll see.


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## Synequano (May 2, 2012)

Seikosickness,last time I check,312 cost 5900 eur after price hike on apr 1 2012 (I don't really follow US price)

As for thickness issues,yes for us who loves Pam,we like that chunkiness on the wrist,however if the watch is too thick,this might put off some people who wants to buy a Pam for the very first time (I'm talking about general public here..)


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## Amnaggar (Nov 15, 2011)

If not buying with investment/value in mind, how many watches is too much? (Yes, even if you have a couple BILLION in the bank )


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## SeikoSickness (May 31, 2007)

Synequano said:


> Seikosickness,last time I check,312 cost 5900 eur after price hike on apr 1 2012 (I don't really follow US price)


Hummm...Maybe it was aeound there and the conversion made it $7,800 USD.


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## Longines (Jan 8, 2010)

_*I'm sorry to recover this thread from the deep*_... I'm looking everywhere to find some solid points of view about Pam. I think that this thread have a really good opinions about the brand.

I had a 064 ''aka LA BOMBA'', 418 and a 372. I sold the first cause I was worried about the tritium... some people told me that if I go to Panerai to service the watch, they will send it directly to factory to change the tritium. I sold the second one, cause I got a really nice offer, I made some money on it and of course, the main reason was after I saw what Panerai did with the 318 New York edition. After the scandal, I told to my self not to buy Panerai again. But I bought a 372. Sold the 372 for the plexy (I thought will be more scratch resistant) and after I realized that the price of the plexy (in case of replacement) was astronomical.

I've been in the list time ago for a Pam 382 ''bronzo'' but didn't get any call... finally all the friends of the AD bought all the units they received (more than 10) and later sell it! I really wanted this watch to dive, to use it, not to sell it for make money. That's another reason why I dislike the brand. If you are not in the club... you'll not buy the watch you want.

These days I'm thinking to buy the Pam 422 and sell my Rolex Explorer II 42mm Polar... but man, after I check this thread, I'm thinking if I should buy it or better to stay like I'm now.

I can buy the 422, it's an amazing watch... but in many places I saw the people complaining about the robustness of the movements of Panerai. Is that true? who knows.... but what is true is that for next year Panerai will present a new Panerai nearly the same as the 422 but with something else in the dial, maybe the pig? and what will happen with the 422?

Some owners of the 372 didn't like how Panerai cheated them about only 2500units, later they said 3500... and who knows how many they'll do. Also the owners of the 372, where not happy about the 422, nearly the same watch? only one year later??

I don't know, I'm a little bit confused. I will take my time to make up my mind.

Here, in these two threads you can read also some very interesting points about Pam

http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/message/1375983293/Has+the+Panerai+bubble+burst-

http://www.network54.com/Forum/2651...--Is+Panerai+now+ready+for+a+new+case+design-

Best regards


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