# whats the zenith el primero like as i want one



## coltpeacemaker041 (Jul 21, 2012)

hi all im after my first real decent watch and was thinking about the Zenith El Primero. So whats it like do any off you guys have this watch and what do you thing off it, id love to see pics off your zenith watch cheers


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## EnderW (Mar 16, 2015)

It is awesome. Ever since I got mine - women want me and men want to be like me. Random people bow to me on the streets at the sight of the glorious El Primero. Watchmakers from Lange and JLC mention what a nice watch it is.

Seriously though - it is very nice and I've enjoyed mine for 2 years with no regrets.










































View attachment 10720754


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

What's the El Primero like? It's like David Bowie riding a tiger made of lightning. It's awesome, you should get one.










Now, is anybody up for a game of Cards Against Humanity?


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## briang583 (Mar 25, 2014)

The only problem is that you have to calculate into the price all of the child support payments you are going to have to make after walking down the street with it on your wrist.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

An attempt at an objective reply.....:

It depends on what you're looking for. If you buy a basic version (Cal. 400), it's not all that much better than many other automatic chronograph. Sure, you get a highly accurate watch, better than many of the others, but that's about it. The down side is that there is a little jump when you start the chronograph. A lot of the extra "kick" is psychological: you get to wear the world's absolutely first automatic chronograph and the one that survived for longer than any other such movement, a super accurate movement from the company that won more awards for accuracy than any other. But that's about it.

If, however, you are willing to invest a little more, you have a whole range of added extras that you could get with it! Grande date, combination of chronograph and wrist alarm (very rare!), _foudroyante _display for the subseconds, full calendar display plus moonphase are just some of the simpler ones. If you really splash out, you could even get it with a tourbillon or a minute repeater! Where else do you find such versatility? (Certainly not at Rolex - they haven't yet managed to make a chronograph with even just a date display.....! :roll

Hartmut Richter


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

Solid enough watch, and the only hi-beat chronograph at that price-point, I believe. But it is horizontally-coupled, if that matters to you.

Regards,
Alysandir


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## coltpeacemaker041 (Jul 21, 2012)

*EnderW* man those Zenith pics are stunning mate love it what a watch! the Zenith seems to tick all the right boxes and that display back is just amazing on it! cheers


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## coltpeacemaker041 (Jul 21, 2012)

WSTP riding a tiger made off lightning lmao nice one


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## coltpeacemaker041 (Jul 21, 2012)

Hartmut Richter said:


> An attempt at an objective reply.....:
> 
> It depends on what you're looking for. If you buy a basic version (Cal. 400), it's not all that much better than many other automatic chronograph. Sure, you get a highly accurate watch, better than many of the others, but that's about it. The down side is that there is a little jump when you start the chronograph. A lot of the extra "kick" is psychological: you get to wear the world's absolutely first automatic chronograph and the one that survived for longer than any other such movement, a super accurate movement from the company that won more awards for accuracy than any other. But that's about it.
> 
> ...


I did think about spending a few $$ more as some off the other are just that bit more special, so what is a foudroyante display? sounds interesting and did Zenith make the first auto chrorgraph? thanks


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## coltpeacemaker041 (Jul 21, 2012)

Alysandir said:


> Solid enough watch, and the only hi-beat chronograph at that price-point, I believe. But it is horizontally-coupled, if that matters to you.
> 
> Regards,
> Alysandir


Cheers Alysadir so what is a horizontally coupled? sorry ive never heard off this so pls expand my mind!


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## EnderW (Mar 16, 2015)

coltpeacemaker041 said:


> I did think about spending a few $$ more as some off the other are just that bit more special, so what is a foudroyante display? sounds interesting and did Zenith make the first auto chrorgraph? thanks


There are certainly more interesting variations of EP. Foudroyante is a jumping second complication, and Zenith has a rather unique execution of it with Striking 10th - where it measures 1/10th of a second (central chrono hand travels a full dial rotation in 10 seconds). It is not much more expensive and is available in 42mm tri-color dial only. BTW - it is the one you included a pic of in original post.
Another interesting complication based on EP and without breaking a bank is a triple-calendar with moonphase using cal 410. And surprisingly, not much more expensive is the annual calendar (Captain Winsor powered by cal 4054).

Striking 10th, triple calendar 410 and Winsor Annual Calendar. (BTW - from behind - they all look very much similar)


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## EnderW (Mar 16, 2015)

coltpeacemaker041 said:


> Cheers Alysadir so what is a horizontally coupled? sorry ive never heard off this so pls expand my mind!


http://iwmagazine.com/education/201...nce-vertical-horizontal-clutches-chronograph/
Many consider vertical clutch to offer superior performance as it minimizes second hand jump, and reduces wear (slightly) due to integration with wheel train.
If you don't know the difference - no need to loose sleep over it. Some new chronographs use vertical clutch (ex: Rolex Daytona new movt or new Breitling Cal01 chronograph). Is it better - perhaps, but debatable.



coltpeacemaker041 said:


> ...sounds interesting and did Zenith make the first auto chrorgraph? thanks


For purposes of F27, Zenith EP was THE FIRST automatic chronograph.
There is a big debate on this as Seiko 6139, Zenith EP, and Heuer\breitling Cal 11 all released automatic chronographs around same time in 1969. There is no clear answer.


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## Level.5x (Jun 7, 2015)

The El Primero is awesome. I've been consolidating my collection recently and still looking to part with 2...maybe 3 more. If all sold, I think I could stretch to get the El Primero by the end of Q2 2017.

There is an El Primero for sale if you look on Watch Recon. I think its a limited edition version that's dial and sub-dials are all Silver. Very attractive price at about $3.8K but I would regret not waiting for the tri-color version. 

The only El Primero version that really has my attention right now though, is the Original 1969 due to it's 38mm case. I've seen a 42mm El Primero in person and it felt and looked a lot like a 43-44mm watch. 

I've been searching Watch Recon for a couple months and Zenith watches don't come up often, especially tri-color El Primeros, and I've yet to see an Original 1969 for sale. I think the lack of pre-owned El Primero's on the market indicates its a well-loved timepiece by owners and rarely parted with. 

What I like about the El Primero is:

1.) The dial design obviously. Very versatile sports watch due to the multi-color face. Very attractive.
2.) The beautiful watch movement as seen from the display back. For $5K on GM sites, I've yet to find an equally attractive, decorated movement, let alone a chronograph that is this sexy. I even love the skeleton rotor and don't mind it being in the way.
3.) The brand/watch history. The higher beat rate. Unique movement. An uncommon, but storied brand. These things really elevate the watch to the next level for me. Icing on the cake as they say.


Some things I've also considered:

1.) I'm not a huge fan of the bracelet offered. PCLs are not my favorite. My Chr. WARD C60 bracelet is similar and it's sometimes too "blingy" and those center links can scratch easily. I am really impressed how well the brown crocodile strap looks on the watch though. So is the bracelet even worth ownership? Can I save a little money by taking it on the croc strap instead? Normally, I always want to stretch for the bracelet version but maybe not here.

2.) Maintenance/Cost of ownership. Being a chronograph and being a rare, Zenith-only movement, I'm sure servicing costs are quite high. 


EnderW - Thanks for the pics as always! Did you buy yours on that croc strap or on bracelet? What's your thoughts on the OEM bracelet vs. OEM leather strap?


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## EnderW (Mar 16, 2015)

Level.5x said:


> ...
> EnderW - Thanks for the pics as always! Did you buy yours on that croc strap or on bracelet? What's your thoughts on the OEM bracelet vs. OEM leather strap?


I've mine on leather. When I shopped around, I compared bracelet and leather option. Bracelet quality is very good and PCLs are not a problem for me usually. Bracelet looks great on Stratos models (much sportier) as well as black\blue dial El Primeros (giving them versatility). But all those models were 42mm, which I can't pull off with my tiny hands. When looking at 38mm tri-color, the bracelet did not work for me - it took away from the beauty of the dial as PCLs and bracelet made dial seem monotone. On the other hand, rich brown leather made silver of the dial shine and stand out as a center of attention on the watch.

Strap itself is of excellent quality - very supple. There is a rubber liner underneath, which allows the watch to be worn with no fear of little moisture or sweat ruining the strap. Leather itself looks like new after 2 years of wear. Stitchwork is absolutely perfect. Deployant buckle is butterfly style and easy to use and not too thick.

Only possible criticism I can offer on the strap - I wish they had quick release springbars. I haven't changed the strap, but like to have an option of doing so easily. The strap fits tight between lugs and I can see myself scratching lugs even with bergeon tool. Quick release bars\straps should be standard on watches at this pricepoint.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

The El Primero was presented to the public - not as a working movement but as a complete watch (the one that later became the Ref. A384) - on 10th of January 1969. There are unconfirmed rumours (generally from people who deny the claim of the EP being "The First") that there were working prototypes of the Cal. 11 of the Swiss competitors and that the Seiko Cal. 6139 started production for sale in the shops at least as early as February (perhaps before?!). The critics are always quick to point out that the EP was only the third in the shops. It matters not: when it comes to everything else in life, "The First" means "The First to Exist" and not "The First to make Money out of it" or anything similar - so why should it be different here?! And there are no confirmations of the other claims which also leave many questions unanswered (if working prototypes existed before, why was production delayed for so long?!). The bottom line: the "El Primero" deservedly carries that title.

A _foudroyante _is a chronograph that shows the subsecond intervals on another dial. Here, Zenith have combined seconds and subseconds on the same dial (central seconds hand) in the "1/10 of a second" complication and show the multitudes of (tens of) seconds on a separate subdial. This complication also eliminates the "jump" when starting a chronograph with horizontal clutch, at least to the extent that the subsecond intervals shown are 100% accurate and not distorted by a forward jump or a delay when starting the chronograph.

The vertical clutch was invented by Pierce, more as a by-product than a way to make a superior chronograph (they wanted to make a chronograph based on a movement with direct central seconds drive; horizontal clutches require a subseconds movement) and has become standard for modern automatic chronographs since it eliminates the jump and leads to slightly more accurate timing. When modern movements resort to the horizontal clutch, (normally in the _haute horlogerie_: Patek Philippe and A. Lange & Söhne use it) it is usually for aesthetic reasons - with a vertical clutch, you can't see anything going on from the back when operating the chronograph.

Hope that helps,

Hartmut Richter


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

EnderW said:


> http://iwmagazine.com/education/201...nce-vertical-horizontal-clutches-chronograph/
> Many consider vertical clutch to offer superior performance as it minimizes second hand jump, and reduces wear (slightly) due to integration with wheel train.
> If you don't know the difference - no need to loose sleep over it. Some new chronographs use vertical clutch (ex: Rolex Daytona new movt or new Breitling Cal01 chronograph). Is it better - perhaps, but debatable.


The only thing I would add to this is that because of the way the gear teeth are designed in horizontally-coupled arrangements, there is a potential danger of prematurely wearing the teeth if the chronograph is run constantly, potentially leading to metal shavings within the movement (never a good thing). In a practical sense, if you're the kind of guy who likes to run the central seconds hand constantly, you're better off with a vertically-coupled arrangement. (Now, whether you should run the central seconds - i.e. run the chronograph function - constantly, is an entirely different discussion. But this is why I brought it up, in case that's something you were looking to do.)

Regards,
Alysandir


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## watchdaddy1 (Dec 2, 2009)

New owner here. Only thoughts as of 3 hrs ago is AWESOME.










So much that it's all mine now










Sent from Galaxy S6 Edge via Tapacrap


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## lhawli (Jan 24, 2016)

I'm in Vienna on business trip and came across a store that had the new silver dial tri-color!

It is an absolute beaut, but my only issue is that the watch wore more like a 44 than a 42 given the slim bezel. 

Another thing to consider is re-sale! I'll be looking out for a used one if I am seriously considering one, but for now, my speedy speaks a lot more to me with on a vintage brown leather strap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
----
Rolex Submariner Date (116610LN)
Omega Speedmaster Pro (311.30.42.30.01.006)
IWC Pilot Mark XVIII (IW327001)


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## Fantasio (Apr 5, 2009)

Congrats, looks even better than Classic Cars. |>



watchdaddy1 said:


> New owner here. Only thoughts as of 3 hrs ago is AWESOME.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Then try the "Original 1969" in 38mm - it also has a slim bezel and might look more like a 40mm watch. The date moves to 4:30, though.....

Hartmut Richter


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## vitagen (Feb 13, 2013)

Wife got me the black version of your pic for my 30th, I've always wanted one and it's a beautiful piece, my first preference would have been the tricolour. Its easily my favourite watch in my collection and would only be beat by the grail I'm after! Definitely get one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## michaelanburaj (Nov 15, 2015)

EnderW said:


> It is awesome. Ever since I got mine - women want me and men want to be like me. Random people bow to me on the streets at the sight of the glorious El Primero. Watchmakers from Lange and JLC mention what a nice watch it is.
> 
> Seriously though - it is very nice and I've enjoyed mine for 2 years with no regrets.
> View attachment 10720682
> ...


Awesome! is it the 38mm version?


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## Lukebor (Mar 29, 2013)

michaelanburaj said:


> Awesome! is it the 38mm version?


Yes, it's 38mm version. Have the date on 4.30.
Here's mine:









iP7


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## elchicomalo (Dec 10, 2015)

38mm


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## Cheezy1 (Feb 25, 2017)

A great thread and have learnt a lot.

Looking forward to trying on a 38mm when I am able to find one.

My criteria is a white / Silver face and must be slim.


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## Cheezy1 (Feb 25, 2017)

Cheezy1 said:


> A great thread and have learnt a lot.
> 
> Looking forward to trying on a 38mm when I am able to find one.
> 
> My criteria is a white / Silver face and must be slim.


Damn, meant to say I enjoyed a Zenith El Primero Espada - silver face - but really missed the "hacking" function, silly I know.
It was a super watch though.


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## lesbiansouryellowfruit (Feb 20, 2014)

Can anyone comment on the durability of the el primero movement?


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## Solomente (Feb 24, 2015)

lesbiansouryellowfruit said:


> Can anyone comment on the durability of the el primero movement?


Well.....
It's been going strong for nearly 50 years and has been in hundreds of thousands of watches, and Rolex used it for their Daytona in the 90s. That's about as good a resume as you can get.


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## Level.5x (Jun 7, 2015)

Solomente said:


> Well.....
> It's been going strong for nearly 50 years and has been in hundreds of thousands of watches, and Rolex used it for their Daytona in the 90s. That's about as good a resume as you can get.


Yea, but is it a durable movement? Everything you listed could be because of its unique 36k bph and being the 1st working chronograph in history. My point being theres several reasons for its popularity, but is durability and longer service intervals among those?

For example, is it generally regarded as a better chrono movt than the Valjoux 7750? The Valjoux seems to be used in everything but is this just due to availability or quality?

Im curious to know if the El Primero can be seen as a more robust movt than any drop-in movt like the Valjoux?


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Level.5x said:


> Yea, but is it a durable movement? Everything you listed could be because of its unique 36k bph and being the 1st working chronograph in history. My point being theres several reasons for its popularity, but is durability and longer service intervals among those?
> 
> For example, is it generally regarded as a better chrono movt than the Valjoux 7750? The Valjoux seems to be used in everything but is this just due to availability or quality?
> 
> Im curious to know if the El Primero can be seen as a more robust movt than any drop-in movt like the Valjoux?


I would say that you have to ensure that you service your El Primeros at the recommended service intervals of 4-6 years. Personally I have been convinced of this by the detailed servicing outlines on the Watchguy's website. I'll let you read up on those yourself to see what he finds.

Again, as a matter of personal opinion I think that the Valjoux can probably go longer without servicing and is generally more rugged. That being said, I'm confident that my El Primero (and Elite) will outlive me and that they will be very reliable watches in the long run. The track record of 40 year old El Primeros in Zenith, Movado and Ebel watches is the best testament to their durability.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

It most certainly is! If you read this review:

Rolex Caliber 3135 - Still worthy of the crown after all these years?

...you get the impression that whoever wrote it knows his stuff. At the end of the review, it is stated that the Zenith Cal. 400 is on a par with the Valjoux 7750 and was only excluded from the selection of candidates for "the best movement of them all" on account of the fact that (at the time), it was only available in chronograph versions whereas the Valjoux 7750 had already been "downsized" by Panerai. Since then, ETA have brought out their own non chrono version (Cal. A07.211) - and so have Zenith ("Espada" Cal. 4650).

Hartmut Richter


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## Level.5x (Jun 7, 2015)

Hartmut Richter said:


> It most certainly is! If you read this review:
> 
> Rolex Caliber 3135 - Still worthy of the crown after all these years?
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that! Its exactly what I was looking for.

Great read. Wish he elaborated more on the 400 cal but still good comparison.


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## Little Ticker (Dec 6, 2012)

I got a new El Primero Tri-Color 38mm in December '16. I'm afraid of it though. Specifically, I'm afraid of its new-ness and awesomeness and I dread when I put the first scratch on it. It is fun to stare at (dial and caseback) and I like pressing the buttons!!!

Seriously though, I can't tell you much about it because it's so new. It works great, the buttons feel/click great, and the steel band is nice. It's not to small; I was worried about this until I got it. It runs just a little bit fast, which is better than slow when it comes to adjusting it. I'm getting used to it not being hack-able when setting it.

I'm currently trying to buy the official zenith alligator strap that goes with it.


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## tiktoktiktok (Dec 9, 2016)

I would love to know if the Cal 410 runs on a vertical clutch. I've not been able to find any information on this. 

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

tiktoktiktok said:


> I would love to know if the Cal 410 runs on a vertical clutch. I've not been able to find any information on this.
> 
> Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk


None of the El Primeros have a vertical clutch. They're all lateral/horizontal, including the 410. You can see the T shaped clutch lever with its extended lower tip touching the column wheel on the right in this image.


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## tiktoktiktok (Dec 9, 2016)

WTSP said:


> None of the El Primeros have a vertical clutch. They're all lateral/horizontal, including the 410. You can see the T shaped clutch lever with its extended lower tip touching the column wheel on the right in this image.


Thanks for helping me understand.

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk


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## rollee (Jan 26, 2015)

It is great to find this thread, I am also in the market for one and have been reading up on the 38mm.
I heard the service cost is higher due to the high beat movement ,thus limiting the watch maker to Zenith trained personnel.

I have a couple of concerns for owners and members here.
Does the slight jump at start of the chronograph seconds hand (center red star hand) happens to every EP 38mm, due to the horizontal gear/clutch? Making this less desirable to run full time?
I thought I saw it does not jump in the Zenith promotional video.

Is there a recent dial update which eliminate the 36000 VpH and AUTOMATIC writings for the 38mm? 

Advice is appreciated, thanks in advance.


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## EnderW (Mar 16, 2015)

rollee said:


> It is great to find this thread, I am also in the market for one and have been reading up on the 38mm.
> I heard the service cost is higher due to the high beat movement ,thus limiting the watch maker to Zenith trained personnel.
> 
> I have a couple of concerns for owners and members here.
> ...


service costs are available on Zenith site
Watch Maintenance Rates - Zenith Luxury Watches
Frankly, 650CHF for full service for base EP by OEM is quite reasonable and less than service for a 3-hander by many comparable brands

Just started my chono several times and if there is a jump - it is virtually imperceptible. Chrono starts relatively smoothly, although a click is definitive and neither too smooth (quartz chrono) nor too harsh (ST19 powered chrono). Not sure how horizontal vs vertical clutch impacts desirability. It just is. I like it as is.

Yes, the question of dial text came up several times recently - Zenith CS indicated that most recent iteration got rid of Automatic and 36000 from the dial. There appears to be a mish-mash of dials out there - some older ones saying Chronometer, most common ones with Automatic text and most recent ones sans both Automatic and 36kvph text. Strangely the website does not show most recent dial version.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

All horizontal clutch chronographs have a potential delay or a potential jump. "Potential" means that it can happen but doesn't happen all the time. I therefore suspect that the promotional video was taken a few times and the best one picked for the job(!). Also, a delay is not quite as perceptible as a jump. Apparently, Patek Philippe introduced something (better tooth profile) to minimise the jump on their latest manual chronograph movement but when the EP was introduced all the way back in 1969, things like jumps and vertical clutches were not considered so important, otherwise the Zenith engineers would probably have eliminated the jump with a vertical clutch.

The reason why Zenith service rates are higher than the independent watchmaker's rates is, among other things, that they now control access to parts so that they can afford to annoy us this way. Pay the cash or leave your watch unserviced. However, they are far from the only ones in the trade who do this (Rolex were the pioneers!) and e.g. Omega take even more - my mother's three-hands-plus-date ladies' Seamaster Cosmic from 1975 went bust recently and they want 1350 Euros!!

Hartmut Richter


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