# Tufina: An Interesting Conversation and Verdict



## asegier

Dear All,

[EDIT] Tufina owns THEOREMA and PIONIER brand watches and are selling them under those brands [/EDIT]

I first saw this brand on Facebook as a Sponsored advertisement and it struck me as fishy that they said they were "made in Germany" and furthermore said they developed "everything in-house". So I took a search on Watchuseek and I only found one thread about it that had not much to say.

So I messaged Tufina directly to ask them what movements they used, and got a very interesting reply:

...

Me: So what movements does your watch use?

_Tufina: Hello again, movement is in-house made in partnership with Elysee watches and Asian parts. Under the German law you cannot put Made in Germany if at least 75% of the item is not made in the country of EU origin. You can go to the governmental site of Germany and look Theorema or Pionier. Thanks!_

Me:As far as I know Elysee uses movements from Ronda, Seiko, ETA, Miyota, Valjoux, Unitas... But they never mentioned their own in house movement. They also said they used to use Chinese movements. [I took this from another Forum post by Elysee as just a quick search on Watchuseek, I am not sure if it is true though]

_Tufina: Theorema and Pionier have sold more than 250,000 watches online since 2004.
People do not understand the concept of watchmaking in general. But, we do prefer when people like you ask us.
Only 3 countries in the world can make movements. Swiss, Japanese, and Chinese. NO ONE ELSE IN THE WORLD can claim 100% product.
As you can see 2/3 of all watchmaking in the world is out of Asia.

People do not know this, and can never realize it. That is when their skepticism starts.

What happens with companies like Theorema, Pionier, or Shinola out in Detroit?

Theorema and Pionier make their own in-house movements with parts from everywhere. Theirs in particular are in partnership with other local German watch companies; parts of their movements are either PI0829 OR TH2908 made in their manufacturing factories, where they assemble them as well, and Asian parts, which are inevitable seeing that they control 2/3 of the watchmaking world. Unless you want a Swiss watch $7-8k and above to have a full free Asian watch.

In Germany (like in USA) for a product to have a Made in Germany stamped on it, must obey 33 all laws and regulations, or they would have been long shut down. The law in Germany requires for a product to have "Made in Germany" on it to be of at least 75% German EU origin. Theorema and Pionier comply with all regulations and laws of EU watchmaking and production. Both brands have been patented and licensed since 2004 in Germany, and both were renovated in their line of production in 2014 for the 10-year anniversary adding to their quality, and keep on adding each year.

I hope our honest and long answer clarified it. Thank you,

Team Tufina_

Me: So by in house, you just mean that you assemble the movement using parts that you outsource? Because in general when we say in house, we mean a custom designed movement created by the company itself. If Elysee does what you call in house, then why do they not advertise it?

_Tufina: By in-house we mean that some parts are generated by us, some parts are taken by few German companies, and Asian parts. Under the EU law for a watch to have Made in (that EU country of origin) the product must be of at least 75% of it's origin. Same concept as Shinola in Detroit and most of watch companies, unless you want a watch that starts at $10k and above. Thank you kindly! Always a pleasure! TH2908 and PI0829 are the movements that Theorema and Pionier has disclosed to us as their official retailer. Thanks again.

_I could not find anything on TH2908 other than another Chinese forum mentioning it here https://www.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=27165990, and I didn't even bother searching for PI0829.

As I cannot read Chinese, I used Google Translate and it seems that they also think it is a Chinese Movement. One interesting thing to note is that one forum poster posted that to have "Made in Germany", the movement does not need to be sourced from Germany. Hence the reason why perhaps they can get away with this.

Further research on the 9211 movement as mentioned on the Chinese forum revealed this PTS 9211 movement from Hong Kong. Link here: PTS Resources Limited

Just thought I'd share 

What are you guys' thoughts?


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## StufflerMike

> .....What are you guys' thoughts?


I wouldn't know where to start, my courtesy forbids an answer.


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## asegier

stuffler said:


> I wouldn't know where to start, my courtesy forbids an answer.


lol sounds like I made a lot of mistakes?


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## StufflerMike

asegier said:


> lol sounds like I made a lot of mistakes?


*You* did not.

*Tufina* could do some more reading, for example some judicature on „Made in Germany": Oberlandesgericht (OLG) Düsseldorf, 5. April 2011 (Case file I-20 U 110/10), Oberlandesgerichts Hamm (Case 4 U 121/13), Bundesgerichtshof (Federal High Court), case file: I ZR 16/14, Oberlandesgericht Frankfurt/Main, 15 October 2015, case 6 U 161/14.
And there is the „Lex Glashütte" (Landgericht München 2007) mentioning +50% (Nomos vs. Mühle), Landgericht München, 22.02.2007 (Case: 4 HKO 10520/06).

Tufina is registered for „Trade in permit free goods of all kinds; especially watches". No mention of „production of watches".


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## ELYSEE

Hello together,
we just found this thread.

Our company, Elysee Uhren Gmbh (brand ELYSEE) do not have any in-house movement.
We are using only ETA, Ronda, Miyota and TMI movements for our brand.

We have no idea why such unserious companies are telling such lies to customers.
Elysee doesn't sell any movements to this company.

Best regards from Düsseldorf/Germany.


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## gangrel

ELYSEE said:


> Hello together,
> we just found this thread.
> 
> Our company, Elysee Uhren Gmbh (brand ELYSEE) do not have any in-house movement.
> We are using only ETA, Ronda, Miyota and TMI movements for our brand.
> 
> We have no idea why such unserious companies are telling such lies to customers.
> Elysee doesn't sell any movements to this company.
> 
> Best regards from Düsseldorf/Germany.


Because it makes them money.

Interesting that they also mention Shinola. Shinola got hammered in the US because it was deemed that "manufactured" does not mean "assembled." I believe Weiss was, as well...which is why they apparently are manufacturing the parts for the American Field Watch in LA. Whether the wording of the German law supports the distinction or not...that, I don't know.

Yeah, these guys look pretty sleazy.


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## asegier

I've heard of Shinola but I wasn't aware of their situation or where they were from. But yeah, I agree. Companies that used to do fake marketing used to target the "main masses" and once anyone inquired a little further (for those who are not enthusiasts) it became obvious that something fishy was going on. But from these types of responses, even the casual buyer who is cautious will likely get tricked into it :\

By the way @stuffler,mike where did you find the information on Tufina being registered? I did a quick German company search and didn't find anything on Tufina. Nor did I see anything related to what they were allowed to produce.

Also as far as I can find on my search, Made In Germany labels do not require 75% of the item to be made there. It seems that even if the item was 90% made overseas and finished in Germany, they can use that label. And that they are trying to change those labelling laws now.


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## StufflerMike

asegier said:


> By the way @stuffler,mike where did you find the information on Tufina being registered? I did a quick German company search and didn't find anything on Tufina. Nor did I see anything related to what they were allowed to produce.


Open sources.



> Also as far as I can find on my search, Made In Germany labels do not require 75% of the item to be made there. It seems that even if the item was 90% made overseas and finished in Germany, they can use that label. And that they are trying to change those labelling laws now.


This has been discussed ad infinitum here on WUS. It's + 50% (Glashütte/SA + 60%). Established law practice, see the cases I mentioned in this thread.


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## Tohono Rat

ELYSEE said:


> Our company, Elysee Uhren Gmbh (brand ELYSEE) do not have any in-house movement.
> We are using only ETA, Ronda, Miyota and TMI movements for our brand.
> 
> We have no idea why such unserious companies are telling such lies to customers.
> Elysee doesn't sell any movements to this company.
> 
> Best regards from Düsseldorf/Germany.


This is an example of what all watch companies should do. Honesty and transparency. As they say in France, "Chapeau!"


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## asegier

Tohono Rat said:


> This is an example of what all watch companies should do. Honesty and transparency. As they say in France, "Chapeau!"


I agree. If only everyone was that transparent. I am always skeptical when any retailer or seller writes "Movement: Automatic XX Jewels". I'm just like... so what kind of movement is that...?


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## HoustonReal

asegier said:


> Dear All,
> 
> [EDIT] Tufina owns THEOREMA and PIONIER brand watches and are selling them under those brands [/EDIT]
> 
> I first saw this brand on Facebook as a Sponsored advertisement and it struck me as fishy that they said they were "made in Germany" and furthermore said they developed "everything in-house". So I took a search on Watchuseek and I only found one thread about it that had not much to say.
> 
> So I messaged Tufina directly to ask them what movements they used, and got a very interesting reply:
> 
> ...
> 
> Me: So what movements does your watch use?
> 
> _Tufina: Hello again, movement is in-house made in partnership with Elysee watches and Asian parts. Under the German law you cannot put Made in Germany if at least 75% of the item is not made in the country of EU origin. You can go to the governmental site of Germany and look Theorema or Pionier. Thanks!_
> 
> Me:As far as I know Elysee uses movements from Ronda, Seiko, ETA, Miyota, Valjoux, Unitas... But they never mentioned their own in house movement. They also said they used to use Chinese movements. [I took this from another Forum post by Elysee as just a quick search on Watchuseek, I am not sure if it is true though]
> 
> _Tufina: Theorema and Pionier have sold more than 250,000 watches online since 2004.
> People do not understand the concept of watchmaking in general. But, we do prefer when people like you ask us.
> Only 3 countries in the world can make movements. Swiss, Japanese, and Chinese. NO ONE ELSE IN THE WORLD can claim 100% product.
> As you can see 2/3 of all watchmaking in the world is out of Asia.
> 
> People do not know this, and can never realize it. That is when their skepticism starts.
> 
> What happens with companies like Theorema, Pionier, or Shinola out in Detroit?
> 
> Theorema and Pionier make their own in-house movements with parts from everywhere. Theirs in particular are in partnership with other local German watch companies; parts of their movements are either PI0829 OR TH2908 made in their manufacturing factories, where they assemble them as well, and Asian parts, which are inevitable seeing that they control 2/3 of the watchmaking world. Unless you want a Swiss watch $7-8k and above to have a full free Asian watch.
> 
> In Germany (like in USA) for a product to have a Made in Germany stamped on it, must obey 33 all laws and regulations, or they would have been long shut down. The law in Germany requires for a product to have "Made in Germany" on it to be of at least 75% German EU origin. Theorema and Pionier comply with all regulations and laws of EU watchmaking and production. Both brands have been patented and licensed since 2004 in Germany, and both were renovated in their line of production in 2014 for the 10-year anniversary adding to their quality, and keep on adding each year.
> 
> I hope our honest and long answer clarified it. Thank you,
> 
> Team Tufina_
> 
> Me: So by in house, you just mean that you assemble the movement using parts that you outsource? Because in general when we say in house, we mean a custom designed movement created by the company itself. If Elysee does what you call in house, then why do they not advertise it?
> 
> _Tufina: By in-house we mean that some parts are generated by us, some parts are taken by few German companies, and Asian parts. Under the EU law for a watch to have Made in (that EU country of origin) the product must be of at least 75% of it's origin. Same concept as Shinola in Detroit and most of watch companies, unless you want a watch that starts at $10k and above. Thank you kindly! Always a pleasure! TH2908 and PI0829 are the movements that Theorema and Pionier has disclosed to us as their official retailer. Thanks again.
> 
> _I could not find anything on TH2908 other than another Chinese forum mentioning it here https://www.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=27165990, and I didn't even bother searching for PI0829.
> 
> As I cannot read Chinese, I used Google Translate and it seems that they also think it is a Chinese Movement. One interesting thing to note is that one forum poster posted that to have "Made in Germany", the movement does not need to be sourced from Germany. Hence the reason why perhaps they can get away with this.
> 
> Further research on the 9211 movement as mentioned on the Chinese forum revealed this PTS 9211 movement from Hong Kong. Link here: PTS Resources Limited
> 
> Just thought I'd share
> 
> What are you guys' thoughts?


My best guess would be these a special Hangzhou Watch Factory 9 Series movements, produced for PTS.

Tufina seems to stress the 75% rule, but if I'm not mistaken, that's a percentage of added value, not parts. Tufina may actually case the movements in Germany, but I doubt they add any parts to the hand-wind movements, or assemble them in Germany. All Tufina needs to do is repackage a Chinese made watch, and claim the labor, strap and packaging represent 75% of the total production cost of the watch. It's more an exercise in accounting, rather than watchmaking. The rules for "Swiss made" are more strict, and the movements need to be assembled in Switzerland to qualify.

_"A product 'Made in Germany' must fulfill the following requirements:

Those services and components which are crucial to the quality and valuation of the goods must have been performed or manufactured in Germany.

The description 'Made in Germany' is not justified by simply assembling parts that have been prefabricated abroad, carrying out a final inspection or labeling the goods in Germany.

On the other hand, some parts or components of an industrial product may certainly be supplied from abroad, but the essential parts of the final product must always originate in Germany.

A significant refinement may justify the description 'Made in Germany'", but here too the above statement still applies: the refinement must be crucial to the quality and valuation of the product."_​
I doubt Tufina meets the requirements above, but until someone comes down on them, they can continue fooling the watch buying public.


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## watch_enthusiast

Hi All,


It was a regret buying watch from Tufina !


In September 2018 i bought Casablanca but i didn't like the finishing and the way clamp on side hangs out.


Immediately i have reported Tufina they said it will not be refunded back instead they will exchange with other watch and i need to ship back the watch to Germany.


I have shipped the watch with USPS paying approx 35$ but when it reached German postal services it never reached to destination and after 2 months on my aggressive enquiry they shipped me back empty package , when enquired with USPS they say that they didn't get a proper reply from German postal services.


I am not sure whom to blame on this but i really don't like Tufina policies on return which wants customer to ship the watch back to Germany on there own expense.


Please be very careful and read there return policy before buying watches from Tufina as they don't refund and always there is chance of watch being lost when you ship back to Germany as in my case.


And trust me there are many options available with same price range with better finish/design and better return policies.


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## Mohamed Ahmed

watch_enthusiast said:


> Hi All,
> 
> It was a regret buying watch from Tufina !
> 
> In September 2018 i bought Casablanca but i didn't like the finishing and the way clamp on side hangs out.
> 
> Immediately i have reported Tufina they said it will not be refunded back instead they will exchange with other watch and i need to ship back the watch to Germany.
> 
> I have shipped the watch with USPS paying approx 35$ but when it reached German postal services it never reached to destination and after 2 months on my aggressive enquiry they shipped me back empty package , when enquired with USPS they say that they didn't get a proper reply from German postal services.
> 
> I am not sure whom to blame on this but i really don't like Tufina policies on return which wants customer to ship the watch back to Germany on there own expense.
> 
> Please be very careful and read there return policy before buying watches from Tufina as they don't refund and always there is chance of watch being lost when you ship back to Germany as in my case.
> 
> And trust me there are many options available with same price range with better finish/design and better return policies.


Hi bro,

I'm sorry for what happened to you, Can you please share other options like automatic watches with better finish/design.

Regards,
Mohamed


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## StufflerMike

Mohamed Ahmed said:


> Hi bro,
> 
> I'm sorry for what happened to you, Can you please share other options like automatic watches with better finish/design.
> 
> Regards,
> Mohamed


Flick through the forum would be my advice. Thousands of recommendations already available.


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## Mohamed Ahmed

ELYSEE said:


> Hello together,
> we just found this thread.
> 
> Our company, Elysee Uhren Gmbh (brand ELYSEE) do not have any in-house movement.
> We are using only ETA, Ronda, Miyota and TMI movements for our brand.
> 
> We have no idea why such unserious companies are telling such lies to customers.
> Elysee doesn't sell any movements to this company.
> 
> Best regards from Düsseldorf/Germany.


Hi,

I just found watches made by your company listed in Tufina's website as sold out, is this legal?


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## StufflerMike

Please contact Elysee directly and you'll get the info you want directly from the source.

[email protected]

Anyway, you seem to be browsing old offers (2018).


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## Mohamed Ahmed

Thank you for your reply 😊


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## TheStuntDummy

Nice Shill posts here, Mods - can we close this thread?


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## StufflerMike

jaxonmackay said:


> I bought Casablanca Watch and i am very happy with it. I am sorry that some people have some issues with these watches. For me everything look good.


What's so special about Casablanca Theorema watch? Well just take a look at the shape of this fabulously built timepiece, and you will see the style and appeal that this timepiece offers. The mesmerizing design on this watch will make for an unforgettable accessory. Amen.


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## StufflerMike

Pam Howell said:


> My husband loves his watch. I got it for his birthday back in February and he can't stop talking about it. His model is called Dubai Theorema. Great job!!!!


Imho an ugly watch and totally overpriced but your husband loves it and that's all what counts.


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## StufflerMike

Unfortunately I had to ban four spammers shilling for Tufina sharing (identical) Albanian IP.


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## bokkie

Here you go: all Chinese... 35 Jewelry Watch Accessories Large Calendar Multi Function Hands Automatic Movement 2L55 Made in China


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## bokkie

Here you go. All Chinese. Exactly the same movement. 35 Jewelry Watch Accessories Large Calendar Multi Function Hands Automatic Movement 2L55 Made in China


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