# Vacheron movement question



## qekse (Nov 9, 2010)

Hey all, 

Have just made the rounds in Vegas and have a question. One sales person implied the Vacheron watches such as the overseas have JLC movements and are not really so "high end" How accurate is this? In your opinions, is a patrimony with "in house" Vacheron movement superior to an overseras with a JLC movement? Are they actually JLC movements at all? All I see on specs pages are caliber numbers, nothing that implies they aren't .. "pure Vacheron." 

Thanks in advance for your input!


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

qekse said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Have just made the rounds in Vegas and have a question. One sales person implied the Vacheron watches such as the overseas have JLC movements and are not really so "high end" How accurate is this? In your opinions, is a patrimony with "in house" Vacheron movement superior to an overseras with a JLC movement? Are they actually JLC movements at all? All I see on specs pages are caliber numbers, nothing that implies they aren't .. "pure Vacheron."
> 
> Thanks in advance for your input!


JLC has made movements for Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, and IWC as well as Vacheron Constantin. JLC is as well respected as any watch company among those who know - which obviously doesn't include that salesperson.


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## v76 (Dec 29, 2009)

I think the notion (in my opinion, absolutely false) that in-house movements means higher quality has been running rampant over a decade or so (perhaps longer?). If you look at the recent history of horology and consider that even until the 1930's, that Patek Philippe barely made a single movement "in-house" for their wristwatches, and yet were considered numero uno when it came to the quality of finish and horological refinement. Till recently (until the early '90s), the big three (PP, VC and AP) got most of their raw movements (ebauches) from JLC, FP, Lemania and others, modified them extensively and finished them to their respective in-house standards and yet, these movements were considered better than anything JLC offered up in their own watches! If you want to know what marvels can be accomplished with non in-house and non-exclusive movements, one doesn't have to look much farther than what Blancpain did with the Peseux 7001 for their "7002 chronometer." This small article should get you thinking about why "in-house" is not necessarily better ... On the Ebauche Tradition [6/1/00] - TimeZone


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

and Cartier.


ulackfocus said:


> JLC has made movements for Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, and IWC as well as Vacheron Constantin. JLC is as well respected as any watch company among those who know - which obviously doesn't include that salesperson.


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## VoiceOfSticks (Jan 21, 2010)

+1


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## Sodiac (Dec 6, 2008)

I've been lusting after an Overseas automatic myself lately, and in doing some research found this interesting article on the 1126 movement that discusses the JLC connection.


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

VC's connection with JLC goes back to 1938 when the two merged for a time. VC inherited many usable ebauche's which they worked their magic on. I guess it can be said that the first VC steel sports watch was the 2215 Chronometer Royal - a rather ugly square model pimping off the noble CR heritage with a rather ugly JLC-based caliber 1096 movement. Thankfully, the 1120 and 1121 calibers followed and were put to work in the famous 222 Vacheron Constantin sports watch. Another blip occurred with the Phidias line that followed but the 1st generation Overseas, with a GP movement, rescued VC's reputation for sports watches and remains popular to this day despite the Gen II being released.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

I just finally caved in, and ordered myself a Vacheron Constantin Overseas with the white dial. They'll be increasing the MSRP from $11600 to $12300 soon, and I got a reasonable discount from a respected authorized dealer who is a supporter of the Timezone forum.


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## celter (Dec 12, 2010)

Congratulations. You made the right choice. Wonderful watch and a brand with a lot of history. Personally I rate VC as one of the top 3 watchmakers, with PP and ALS. I have a VC Overseas myself, but the older, smaller version. There is something about this watch that is unexplainable. I just love it and I know you will love yours. Wear it in the best of health for many years.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks, I was also contemplating the Rolex GMT IIc, primarily because I believe it has the best in class implementation of the GMT complication. However, I was less keen about the beefier case of the new Rolexes, in particular, the strangely oversized lugs. Finally, it was the wonderfully detailed dial of the Vacheron Overseas that swayed me, not to mention the allure of being slightly off the beaten track.

In practice, I would probably not have worn the Rolex while traveling in any case, since it would have been one additional thing to worry about during a hectic trip overseas. For travel, I'll probably rely on my Rotary Revelation, which is a reliable quartz homage of the JLC Reverso Duo.


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

JLC have sold calibre to all memebers in what some call the big three to me JLC is in the same leauge as them 
congrats with your VC great pick and a true high-end no matter what runs in itb-)


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Stensbjerg said:


> JLC have sold calibre to all memebers in what some call the big three to me JLC is in the same leauge as them
> congrats with your VC great pick and a true high-end no matter what runs in itb-)


Agreed that JLC has supplied the ebauche to high-end makers, but that doesn't by default make JLC high-end also! Compare the base caliber 818 from JLC with Vacheron & Constantin's version, the caliber 1001. There is, in fact, more time and effort invested by V&C in upgrading the 818 than JLC spent manufacturing it. Don't get me wrong, I respect JLC tremendously...they ARE the watchmaker's watchmaker...but they don't compare themselves with the Big 3 either.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

JLC has been well known to supply their automatic or handwound movements to patek, vacheron and ap. JLC movements have always been perfectly crafted and very well made, it is not without reason the big three top tier brands chose them for supplying movements. JLC is one of the few brands that can claim a manufacture status.


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

georges zaslavsky said:


> JLC has been well known to supply their automatic or handwound movements to patek, vacheron and ap. JLC movements have always been perfectly crafted and very well made, it is not without reason the big three top tier brands chose them for supplying movements. JLC is one of the few brands that can claim a manufacture status.


Well said georges
JLC is second to none just look at what they make and in what price range


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Stensbjerg, you are obviously a fan of JLC and so am I. Your original post was to wonder how VC's in-house movements compare to those having JLC ebauches. While apparently I can't illustrate what VC does with that JLC ebauche, perhaps independent superstar Kari Voutilainen can do a better job describing what VC does with their in-house movements. Here are his comments after disassembly, reassembly and regulating a VC caliber 4400 (in-house manufacture), as reported on a VC forum:

"_I'm very impressed with the movement construction and finish. The movement is easy and logical to assemble, all parts fit in perfectly. You tell me this is a base movement? Then what a base movement! Finishing a movement to be used in very small quantities is something, having a movement with this type of finish in what will be made in large amounts is something thoroughly different! The quality of this movement is much higher than what we see in other high end brands. This is the first modern caliber I see finished so well._"

I'd be pleased to share his entire analysis, which included specifics on construction and finish, if there is any interest. Cheers,


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

Hey Tick Talk I'm not a JLC fan,I'm a BIG JLC fan

I'm very happy to see that the work JLC has done for they other tree not just 
has been pointet at as something near to zero by a HUGE watch expertb-) 

Many I have talk to have said it is not such a big thing
(most PP and AP fans;-))

I will by happy to read the rest of what he had to say about JLCs engineb-)
JLC make so many great things with there watches,I think that it is just because there
entry level is lower then PP,AP and VC that makes them lower in some peoples eyes.

I'am not in to that kind of behavior :roll:
so to me JLC is up there with the restb-)


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Stensbjerg said:


> Hey Tick Talk I'm not a JLC fan,I'm a BIG JLC fan
> 
> 
> > Awesome! I hope that doesn't mean that your posts are made for argument and not discussion? Here is another fact to add to your collection: at the innaugural 2009 Concours International de Chronométrie time trials, the big winner was Jaeger-LeCoultre who won both the first and second places in the Brands catagory. First place was won by their Master Tourbillon Cal. 978 and second place went to the Reverso Gyrotourbillon Calibre 174. This so-called Observatory Trials were an attempt to restart a very respected tradition in the watch industry that died with the quartz revolution. Sixteen watches were submitted but only 10 finished the three separate 15-day timing trials...five failed the timing tests and one broke! Unfortunately, only the winners were announced but rumour was that the AP broke its mainspring. Rene Addor won the Independents catagory with a non-tourbillon that he manufactured in his garage workshop. It fell well behind the two JLC entrants in points, indicating that tourbillons have a role in precision mechanical timekeeping even today. The bi-annual competition is scheduled to repeat in October of 2011 but entrants have already submitted their pieces anonymously. I hope you can follow it to see how well Jaeger-LeCoultre fares.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Just a drool worthy shot of the JLC Gyrotourbillon.


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm always open for a good watch talk and what I say is just how I see it
I'm a very big fan of JLC and doing nothing to hide it,so it is a joy to see what your write/show.


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

The connection between Vacheron Constantin and Jaeger-LeCoultre runs deep and, in fact, neither would be what they are today without the other. Having both barely survived the Great Depression, they merged in 1938 under the holding company SAPIC or Société Anonyme de Produits Industriels et Commerciaux. During the next fifty years, their brilliant Managing Director Georges Ketterer oversaw a rebuilding which combined JLC's manufacturing muscle with V&C's horological expertise. They eventually went their seperate ways with Ketterer actually buying ownership of Vacheron Constantin although later selling to Sheik Yamani in 1986. In 2000, the two brands were reunited under the Richemont Group. JLC had also acquired 40% ownership of Audemars Piguet until surrendering that to Richemont too! Under SAPIC, two world record thin calibers were developed; the 1003 9-ligne manual movement and the 1120 full-rotor automatic which, incidentally, is the only movement ever shared by VC, Audemars (as caliber 2120) and Patek (caliber 28-255). JLC never used either caliber themselves. Although the marketing strategy of Richemont today is to keep their posse of brands independent, one cannot deny the obvious cross-pollination. VC has since brought production of the 1003 and 1120 completely in-house. There are many wonderful books on the histiory of the Swiss watch industry, but that is another thread...


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

Yes there is for sure a good history in the JLC/VC band.

A VC overseas will always be lifelong member of my dream list before any PP and AP,not just because of the JLC link but also because it is a great understatet watchb-)


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Stensbjerg said:


> Yes there is for sure a good history in the JLC/VC band.
> 
> A VC overseas will always be lifelong member of my dream list before any PP and AP,not just because of the JLC link but also because it is a great understatet watchb-)


Here's a shot of my Vacheron Constantin Overseas.


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

Great lookingb-)
what is the size ?


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Stensbjerg said:


> Great lookingb-)
> what is the size ?


Thanks, it's 42.5mm.


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

Pure classb-)b-)b-)
to me 42 would be the right size.


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Here is an original Gen I Overseas, with the Girard Perregaux ebauche. Smaller at 37mm but suits my puny wrist ;-) Contrast the flat automatic caliber 3100 GP movement used in the similar Laureato sports watch with the decorated and tuned chronometer caliber 1311 that VC produced.


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

Great wrist shot 
this watch is so much more me then any APb-)


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## shartouh (Oct 9, 2013)

qekse said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Have just made the rounds in Vegas and have a question. One sales person implied the Vacheron watches such as the overseas have JLC movements and are not really so "high end" How accurate is this? In your opinions, is a patrimony with "in house" Vacheron movement superior to an overseras with a JLC movement? Are they actually JLC movements at all? All I see on specs pages are caliber numbers, nothing that implies they aren't .. "pure Vacheron."
> 
> Thanks in advance for your input!


The in-house caliber of VC have THE HALLMARK OF GENEVA. They are 26 caliber.
Overseas has not THE HALLMARK OF GENEVA. because the caliber is based on JLC 889
Overseas chronograph has not also THE HALLMARK OF GENEVA . because the caliber is based on Frederic piguet caliber 1150 chronograph.:roll:


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

shartouh said:


> The in-house caliber of VC have THE HALLMARK OF GENEVA. They are 26 caliber.
> Overseas has not THE HALLMARK OF GENEVA. because the caliber is based on JLC 889
> Overseas chronograph has not also THE HALLMARK OF GENEVA . because the caliber is based on Frederic piguet caliber 1150 chronograph.:roll:


The Geneva seal stipulates the way in which certain parts have to be finished, and that there are no wire springs. But most importantly, the movement has to be made in the canton of Geneva, and since JLC movements are not made there, there is no way for it to ever qualify for the Geneva seal. Nothing prevents you from using an outsourced movement in a watch with the Geneva seal though, so long as it was made in Geneva to the requisite standards.


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## shartouh (Oct 9, 2013)

mleok said:


> The Geneva seal stipulates the way in which certain parts have to be finished, and that there are no wire springs. But most importantly, the movement has to be made in the canton of Geneva, and since JLC movements are not made there, there is no way for it to ever qualify for the Geneva seal. Nothing prevents you from using an outsourced movement in a watch with the Geneva seal though, so long as it was made in Geneva to the requisite standards.


You have Right, VC had more changed in New Overseas Caliber JLC 889 , but not any more C.O.S.C test, they maked it with Antimagnetism until 25000 A/M, more then Rolex Milgauss and new Omega .
and that is coooool


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

.


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