# How would you like the PanAm to look?



## Yao

Well I guess this is as good time as any for you guys to list your "ideal" (i.e. wish list) for this watch. I will then take the information and see if its feasible and/or start compiling a survey if necessary before the project begins in earnest.


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## Jim C.

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

hi Bill... long time, no see. ;-)

I've been lurking in the thread for a while, but I'm willing to jump in first. I'd like white dial w/black print, black or silver hands, acrylic crystal and acrylic bezel. I'd rather not have a cyclops, but could live with one.


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## BigHaole

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

I'd like the combo of a white dial with a red date wheel. I would prefer a sapphire crystal with cyclops (sorry, Jim), I would love for it to be just slightly larger than the original (41 or 42mm) in a bushed finish with an all brushed band (no polished center links). I'm actually digging that rivet bracelet in the image that Izzy posted, above. And I'd like for it to have the Pan Am logo on the caseback (I hope its in the public domain) and a replica Pan Am bag to ship it in (I've seen some nice shaving kit sized ones that would be a good size and would be reusable).


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## Arthur

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

Here is my list:
White dial/gilt lettering/gilt hands
Roulette date wheel (like the original)
acrylic or sapphire "Pepsi" bezel insert
Crystal/cyclops I really don't have any preference acrylic or sapphire. I love acrylic, byut I have no idea how hard it would be to find good acrylic crystals today
Name: Key West is cool Clipper sort of blah too bad PanAm is probably still protected. Would be nice to have that PanAm logo on the back though. I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble to try to wade through all the intellectual properties minefields to try to use the PanAm name and logo.

As far as I'm concerned,you could do and exact replica of the watch in Stephano's blog sans all the Rolex stuff on the dial and I would be a very happy camper.

Thanks for asking us for our input
Arthur


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## Thieuster

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

Thanks Bill!

My list:

* Dial: white/gilt C3 (would like to have a black one in the spares kit)
* Hands: gilt C3
* Date wheel: roulette wheel
* Bezel insert: 'Pepsi'; pref. acrylic or sapphire? The same material as the one on my Tornek, please! That one looks awesome.
* Crystal: no preference
* Cyclops: no preference
* Movement: a 'real' GMT please, even if this means that you have to change from ETA to ... (other brand's name)
* Name: Key West (After all, I came up with the name ;-) )
* PanAm logo would be nice, but I think it's still protected, like Arthur already mentioned.

Menno

EDIT: I forgot about the bracelet and size: 
* Bracelet: no need for a riveted bracelet this time. The Vantage quality is perfect, as long as the bracelet is tapered: from 20 back to 16mm, like the Kingston
* Watch size: the Kingston case is perfect!

M.


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## tako_watch

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

Like Thieuster's
but I would like Sapphire no cyclops...but make the roulette wheel ( a must!) as big as possible.
and I vote for Key West!!!


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## timbo

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

In general, I'd like to see it in the same spirit as the Kingston. Take advantage of newer technologies, but remain faithful to the original design. With that said, here's the list:

- based on the 6542 - no crown guard case. I think the Kingston case and bracelet would actually be fine for this watch
- glossy black, gilt dial, with same lume choices as Kingston. 
- roulette style date wheel
- gilt hands, 6542 style GMT hand with small triangle
- custom 6542-like crown, signed MKII
- acrylic crystal with cyclops, or if that's not possible, domed sapphire crystal without cyclops
- bi-directional 48 click bezel - i like bakelite for a material, though I doubt it's possible. I would rather see vintage colours employed in the bezel, where the blue is almost black, and the red is a very deep, bloody hue. I'd like to see a lumed bezel as well, i don't know if the 6542 had lumed numerals, or if just the triangle was lumed, but lume all around seems like the right way to do it.


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## Smeg

I'm with Timbo for the most part...another vote here for 'Key West' as first choice, 'Worldport' as 2nd. I wouldn't mind a numerical designation either like '747.

I'd love a Pan Am logo or name on it! Wouldn't mind paying a bit extra if there was a licensing fee involved...

Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk


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## BigHaole

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

I'm ashamed I didn't realize the original had the roulette date wheel. Of course I would prefer that. 

If we're looking at numerical designations, how about "707"? Pan Am was the launch Customer for the Boeing 707 and that would have been their flagship, when the GMT Master was introduced.

If the Pan Am logo is not public domain, how about the globe without Pan Am on it, for the caseback?


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## Arthur

I'm having a little trouble trying to keep up with the PanAm thread, as it has gotten somewhat convoluted. I thought I would open a new thread with the specific idea of incorporating everyone's ideas in a more linear fashion. Bill wants to list all the ideas, and I believe this would make it much easier for him to read and come up with what the members are asking for.I hope this helps
Arthur

Here is my list:
White dial/gilt lettering/gilt hands
Roulette date wheel (like the original)
acrylic or sapphire "Pepsi" bezel insert
Crystal/cyclops I really don't have any preference acrylic or sapphire. I love acrylic, but I have no idea how hard it would be to find good acrylic crystals today
Name: Key West is cool Clipper sort of blah too bad PanAm is probably still protected. Would be nice to have that PanAm logo on the back though. I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble to try to wade through all the intellectual properties minefields to try to use the PanAm name and logo.

As far as I'm concerned,you could do and exact replica of the watch in Stephano's blog sans all the Rolex stuff on the dial and I would be a very happy camper.

Thanks for asking us for our input
Arthur​


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## bompi

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

_Et hop ! 
_


Dial: white w/ gilt index
Hands: gilt
Date wheel: roulette wheel (black / red or (why not) black/red/blue)
Bezel insert: blue or 'Pepsi'.
Crystal: sapphire
Cyclops: yes (kind of mandatory b-))
Movement: GMT
Name: Clipper is OK ; I like Caravelle as well (historical French airplane, but also a nice car from Renault and, of course, a ship) but I guess it may sound too French to many ;-)
Back : PanAm logo would definitely be really great (if allowed...)
Crown : signed MKII
Bracelet : a riveted bracelet sounds fine
Size : I'd rather have a 39mm diameter watch but Kingston size suits me as well.


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## Dennis Smith

Black dial with silver lettering/hands and white markers (no faux lum yak piss color  )
Roulette date
Aluminum Pepsi insert
Double domed sapphire crystal with AR on the inside
Cyclops over the date
Heavy oyster bracelet with solid end links
Size 40mm (use the Kingston as a base)
Ideally a jumping 12 hour hand like the Master II/Omegas

Name: not worried about it...but I like all the suggestions I've seen so far.

I know a lot of guys say there's already a lot of black dialed watches out there, but I have never found one 40mm, with domed sapphire, with pepsi GMT.


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## Eric 0

Hi Everyone,

First post, but I recently picked up an accrylic Paradive after my stainless Marathon Navigator died and I started looking for an upgrade. Started reading about MkII after I got the watch, and I love the company and the ideas behind the watches.

I think the PanAm should be as close to a literal translation of the original as possible, with enough options to make it a MkII experience. My choices would be:

White dial, with black line work. No Gilt. C3 Lume. (Black Dial with Guilt optional.)
Silver hands (or gold with the black dial.)
Would love (_LOVE_) to see an acrylic or ceramic bezel, but the aluminum bezel on the Kingston is gorgeous, so whatever is possible. 
Black and Red Pepsi bezel. (Maybe Blue and Red Optional?)
Cyclops optional. (Otherwise I'll f--- up the watch trying to get it off.)

Maybe "UTC Master" Where GMT master is normally printed on the R----.

Names: How about "Zulu" which is pilot speak for GMT/UTC time. Not really into "Clipper" "Worldport" isn't bad.

Cheers,

Eric


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## Dennis Smith

Hi Eric,
Great first post. Great ideas.
A quick note regaring watch slang...
A black & red bezel is known as a "coke" while a blue & red is known as a "pepsi".
How about "Zulu Master" ;-)
No, seriosly, I like your name ideas too.


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## White Tuna

Here is my 2�¢

Dial: White/Cream (Possible Gilt, black or Blue/Navy Indices) (Brown with Gilt would be a dream choice) - Too many black options out there for me already
Hands: Depends on Dial design
Date wheel: roulette wheel 
Bezel insert: Pepsi
Crystal: No preference
Cyclops: Yes/No strong preference
Movement: ETA/No strong preference
Back : PanAm logo/No strong preference
Crown : signed MKII
Bracelet : YES!
Size : Larger than Kingston/No strong preference

.Name: I was thinking Zulu because that is what the military uses.

My initial response was Zulu Master, but that could have unfortunate backlash. I really like it though. Zulu Time or plain MKII Zulu would be close seconds. 
Key West carries a certain alternate lifestyleconnotation which may hurt or help resale value….especially with the Blue/Red(Pepsi) bezel.

Other names:

UTC Master (Nota huge fan as I do not think this flows as easy as the original)
Globe Master
Global Time


I REALLY likeZulu but I think that any company has to be careful using the term master.


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## Eric 0

Yeah, 

"Zulu Master" is a little too ... slave trady? Kind of like when German's talk about a "Final Solution" to the European Dept crisis.

What about "Greenwich"?

BTW thanks for "Coke vs Pepsi" schooling.


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## BigHaole

I like the "Greenwich" idea. More faithful to the watches name (GMT Master) than it's nickname (Pan Am).

A lot of the Rolex GMT Master II owners collect all three bezels (coke, pepsi, black), how about a package that included multiple ones, like the dark blue/blood red "classic" combo that timbo mentions, and a more modern royal blue/red. Or go all out and include a bezel where the blue is faded, but the red is not, as many vintage GMT Masters look.


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## White Tuna

I like Greenwich


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## INDECS

My prefs:


"MKII Key West"


- Acrylic Pepsi (Navy/Blood) bezel insert, lumed would be awesome.
- Acrylic crystal, cyclops is nice, not necessary
- Roulette Date wheel
- Slightly off-white/gilt dial C3 lume
- Silver hands C3 lume
- Kingston 39mm case
- Kingston rivet bracelet

I was thinking that "Panama" sounds good and it's only an extra A away from PanAm 
Doesn't really have anything to do with the whole GMT theme though...


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## MHe225

My views as of today ;-)

no need to look for a case, the Kingston seems the perfect donor
preferably no crown guards (when designing a new case)
white-gilt dial with C3 lume (maybe offer Plank owners a black-gilt dial with C3). combined with lumed gilt hands
roulette date wheel
Pepsi bezel insert; no preference for material (acrylic seems very nice)
domed crystal, either hesalite or sapphire
not too keen on a cyclops and given Bill's reservations about cyclops in combination with domed crystal ......
GMT movement would be bonus, but not a deal breaker
Kingston bracelet seems fine
don't like most of the names that have been mentioned, but do like the 707 suggestion
engraved PanAm logo on case-back would be über-cool; if this logo is still protected under copy-right laws, maybe a Boeing 707 (e.g. simplified version of the image below)








RonB


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## Izzy

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

This is my choice:

- case: no crown guards. Kingston case will do in terms of size and design.
- crown will need to be smaller than the Kingston's. Not as small as the 6542's as the Kingston is larger but needs to be in proportion.
- 1st choice: white dial and lumes and serifs to match Steffano's 6542. 2nd choice: glossy black, gilt C3 dial as per Kingston. Do not forget the chapter ring!
- roulette date wheel. Silver background. Font needs to be in line with the vintage design of the watch.
- gilt hands.
- GMT hand all red (see picture below)
- acrylic "top hat" or curved cyrstal with cyclops. It needs to stick out above the bezel. I find the sapphire crystals too flat.
- OK with just a uni-directional bezel.
- GMT movement not a big deal for me. The vintage watches worked well without one. Could also save time and money in terms of assembly.
- All blue bezel - inline with Pan Am's colours (see picture below). Material of bezel, not an issue for me, but it needs to take a beating ;-)
- bracelet should be riveted like Kingston's. 
- Name: MKII - GMT or Worldport
- Pan Am logo on the case back - if we can get away with it :-!


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## enkidu

* Case: Kingston seems perfect, no crown guards
* Crown: medium sized (no big crown)
* Dial: black gilt C3
* Hands: gilt C3, small arrow GMT hand 
* Date wheel: no date > destro date wheel option > black on white date wheel
* Bezel insert: 'Coke' style bezel, blood red, sapphire lumed
* Crystal: subtly domed sapphire but other material is fine
* Cyclops: no cyclops!
* Movement: much prefer a real GMT with independent 12-hour hand (jump-set hour hand)
* Name: Key West, Clipper, Zulu Master, it's all good.


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## Reintitan

Yao said:


> Well I guess this is as good time as any for you guys to list your "ideal" (i.e. wish list) for this watch. I will then take the information and see if its feasible and/or start compiling a survey if necessary before the project begins in earnest.


Hi Bill,

Here's my wish list:

CASE, BEZEL, and BRACELET:
Kingston case
New crown about 3/4 the size of Kingston big crown
Kingston riveted looking bracelet
Kingston bezel but bidirectional and 24-clicks and BRASS in color not silver

CRYSTAL:
Flat top sapphire crystal with cyclops

INSERT:
Blue/Red bezel insert with option of All Black bezel insert with white numbers, and All Brown bezel insert with silver numbers
Bezel inserts topped with sapphire crystal

DIAL:
Black gloss GILT dial with minute chapter ring

HANDS:
SMALL arrow RED 24-hour hand
GILT hour, minute, and sweep seconds hands

DATEWHEEL:
Open 6s and 9s on the datewheel

LUMINOUS:
BLWG blue glow luminous

WATER RESISTANCE:
200 m WR

EXTRAS:
Spare case kit like Kingston

PRICE:
Max price around $1750 to $2000

NAME:
"Pan-America" with the dash in there like "GMT-Master"

AVAILABILITY:
Delivery by April 2012...I know, this last one is asking too much 

STOLEN PICTURE FROM 10PastTen.com

Here is the ARCHETYPE Ref. 6542 GMT-Master:


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## gonzomantis

Here are the important things for me.

CASE, BEZEL, and BRACELET:
Kingston case and bracelet

CRYSTAL:
Acrylic

INSERT:
Acrylic or sapphire
Blue/Red

DIAL:
WHITE with BLACK surrounds on markers

HANDS:
RED 24-hour hand
BLACK hour, minute, and sweep seconds hands


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## Smeg

Reintitan said:


> NAME:
> "Pan-America" with the dash in there like "GMT-Master"


Love it!!

Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk


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## iCar

The possibility of a MKII "Pan Am" has got me all excited. I'd like to see an updated and improved modern interpretation of the original. Here's my wish list.

Case: 40-42 mm, no crown guards
Bracelet: 20 mm, no taper
Dial: Black, White/Cream, and/or "Pepsi" Blue; Gilt Minute track with outer ring; Fixed 24 hour track on chapter/flange ring
Hands: Something other than a Mercedes hour hand, All-red GMT hand (like in Izzy's post)
Bezel: Lumed, sapphire in "Pepsi" colors, "Coke" colors, and/or "Pepsi" blue; 48 clicks, Hour dots located on center circumference of bezel, not towards inner edge
Crystal: Sapphire, no cyclops
Name: Key West, Greenwich, Pan-America, Intercontinental, Cosmopolitan


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## Cowbiker

Rolex 6542

Refs:
http://www.matthewbaininc.com/assets/content/posts/rolex-bakeliteGMT^Wlg.jpg
http://www.vrfimages.com/dials/dials/GMTs/6542/6542-3,56sn-I1958-T<25-tomvox1.JPG
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1129/4728181204_fc9f7ffa6f_b.jpg

Kingston crownguardless case
small/normal crown
acrylic crystal, no cyclops
48 clicks, bi-directional
acrylic bezel not lumed or bakelite if you can get that done reasonably.
Choice of black or white dial w/ antiqued lume dial and hands
silver mercedes hands 
red dwarf gmt hand w/ silver arrowhead
Pepsi bezel (as Timbo said: vintage/aged colors, the maroon-ish red brown and dull dark blue just make the aged look)
Kingston rivit bracelet
Choice of date wheels: White/Black Text, White Red Text
limit lines of text on subdial to two if offered w/ COSC movement, otherwise one line.
Name: MKII GMT, feel more connection to the reference watch model than a herritage associated name/brand.


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## cpotters

Ok, I think I'll weigh in here, too. First off, everybody remember that BECAUSE we had so much input into the Kingston's design and BECAUSE there were so many options/variations in MkII's final product, we added a solid year to the delivery time (accompanied by an auful lot of frustrated MkII fans). If you want to keep this more managable, give Bill the option to have "less options": it's gonna be a great watch regardless of the final configuration/s.

I'd say, make two models available: the Pan-America, a white dial, with black lettering and surrounds for the lume, with a pepsi "acrylic-like" bezel, roulette date wheel (with a cyclops with at least 2.5x magnificationtherwise, don't bother), red GMT hand. This is the "homage" to the PanAm executive model which - unless you're prepared to drop six-figures for a watch - is the closest any of us will come to this iconic configuration.

The second version is a black matte dial with gilded lettering and lume surrounds, coke "acrylic-like" bezel, and the same red gmt hand. This would be an homage to the "Pussy Galore" GMT worn by Honor Blackman in Goldfinger, and could be referred to, simply, as the "IMBD" ("I must be dreaming": Connery's quote upon hearing Pussy's name for the first time).

Both watches would share the already spec'd for manufaturing Kingston case AND rivited bracelet (the work is done already, and shaves more than 6 months off the delivery time), a smaller winding crown with MkII logo, a caseback that shows the globe with the MkII logo superimposed over it, the red GMT hand and the crystal with cyclops.

Bill's development would be:
a: source a GMT movement, although I'm very happy with the one in the LRRP
b: design a single new crown
c: work out the crystal/cyclops issue - no small feat if its going to be done right
d: draw up the spec's for the dials: the Black ones will take longer to make, so white dials get delivered first
e: work out the bezel, again no small feat. acrylic would be the grail, but may prove just too difficult to get done right.

This is no small project, so I would be happy if there were just two choices. Heck, I might even buy them both. But the key here is to not have a huge menu of options. If Bill doesn't have to source the new GMT movement, this project could be completed with 12 months from the time it finally gets off the board, because of the fact that the case and bracelet specs are already with the manufacturers. Whatever the configuration, I'm in!


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## Thieuster

cpotters said:


> Ok, I think I'll weigh in here, too. First off, everybody remember that BECAUSE we had so much input into the Kingston's design and BECAUSE there were so many options/variations in MkII's final product, we added a solid year to the delivery time (accompanied by an auful lot of frustrated MkII fans). If you want to keep this more managable, give Bill the option to have "less options": it's gonna be a great watch regardless of the final configuration/s.
> 
> I'd say, make two models available: the Pan-America, a white dial, with black lettering and surrounds for the lume, with a pepsi "acrylic-like" bezel, roulette date wheel (with a cyclops with at least 2.5x magnificationtherwise, don't bother), red GMT hand. This is the "homage" to the PanAm executive model which - unless you're prepared to drop six-figures for a watch - is the closest any of us will come to this iconic configuration.
> 
> The second version is a black matte dial with gilded lettering and lume surrounds, coke "acrylic-like" bezel, and the same red gmt hand. This would be an homage to the "Pussy Galore" GMT worn by Honor Blackman in Goldfinger, and could be referred to, simply, as the "IMBD" ("I must be dreaming": Connery's quote upon hearing Pussy's name for the first time).
> 
> Both watches would share the already spec'd for manufaturing Kingston case AND rivited bracelet (the work is done already, and shaves more than 6 months off the delivery time), a smaller winding crown with MkII logo, a caseback that shows the globe with the MkII logo superimposed over it, the red GMT hand and the crystal with cyclops.
> 
> Bill's development would be:
> a: source a GMT movement, although I'm very happy with the one in the LRRP
> b: design a single new crown
> c: work out the crystal/cyclops issue - no small feat if its going to be done right
> d: draw up the spec's for the dials: the Black ones will take longer to make, so white dials get delivered first
> e: work out the bezel, again no small feat. acrylic would be the grail, but may prove just too difficult to get done right.
> 
> This is no small project, so I would be happy if there were just two choices. Heck, I might even buy them both. But the key here is to not have a huge menu of options. If Bill doesn't have to source the new GMT movement, this project could be completed with 12 months from the time it finally gets off the board, because of the fact that the case and bracelet specs are already with the manufacturers. Whatever the configuration, I'm in!


As so often, your contribution makes sense. Thank you. And: good point referring to the details of the 2.5x magnifying cyclops. Indeed, that has to be spot on!

Menno


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## tomr

cpotters said:


> Ok, I think I'll weigh in here, too. First off, everybody remember that BECAUSE we had so much input into the Kingston's design and BECAUSE there were so many options/variations in MkII's final product, we added a solid year to the delivery time (accompanied by an auful lot of frustrated MkII fans). If you want to keep this more managable, give Bill the option to have "less options": it's gonna be a great watch regardless of the final configuration/s.
> 
> I'd say, make two models available: the Pan-America, a white dial, with black lettering and surrounds for the lume, with a pepsi "acrylic-like" bezel, roulette date wheel (with a cyclops with at least 2.5x magnificationtherwise, don't bother), red GMT hand. This is the "homage" to the PanAm executive model which - unless you're prepared to drop six-figures for a watch - is the closest any of us will come to this iconic configuration.
> 
> The second version is a black matte dial with gilded lettering and lume surrounds, coke "acrylic-like" bezel, and the same red gmt hand. This would be an homage to the "Pussy Galore" GMT worn by Honor Blackman in Goldfinger, and could be referred to, simply, as the "IMBD" ("I must be dreaming": Connery's quote upon hearing Pussy's name for the first time).
> 
> Both watches would share the already spec'd for manufaturing Kingston case AND rivited bracelet (the work is done already, and shaves more than 6 months off the delivery time), a smaller winding crown with MkII logo, a caseback that shows the globe with the MkII logo superimposed over it, the red GMT hand and the crystal with cyclops.
> 
> Bill's development would be:
> a: source a GMT movement, although I'm very happy with the one in the LRRP
> b: design a single new crown
> c: work out the crystal/cyclops issue - no small feat if its going to be done right
> d: draw up the spec's for the dials: the Black ones will take longer to make, so white dials get delivered first
> e: work out the bezel, again no small feat. acrylic would be the grail, but may prove just too difficult to get done right.
> 
> This is no small project, so I would be happy if there were just two choices. Heck, I might even buy them both. But the key here is to not have a huge menu of options. If Bill doesn't have to source the new GMT movement, this project could be completed with 12 months from the time it finally gets off the board, because of the fact that the case and bracelet specs are already with the manufacturers. Whatever the configuration, I'm in!


Excellent proposals and logic presented here, and I especially like the "Pan-America" homage concept. The "Key West" moniker just doesn't convey the same GMT-type feeling. However, I'm not as keen regarding the "IMBD" for the black version, but, I'm sure we can toss it around with some other names for awhile. These two offerings would make for a difficult choice, and, as Cpotters stated, might warrant acquiring both versions (depending, of course, on price).


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## tallguy

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*



timbo said:


> In general, I'd like to see it in the same spirit as the Kingston. Take advantage of newer technologies, but remain faithful to the original design. With that said, here's the list:
> 
> - based on the 6542 - no crown guard case. I think the Kingston case and bracelet would actually be fine for this watch
> - glossy black, gilt dial, with same lume choices as Kingston.
> - roulette style date wheel
> - gilt hands, 6542 style GMT hand with small triangle
> - custom 6542-like crown, signed MKII
> - acrylic crystal with cyclops, or if that's not possible, domed sapphire crystal without cyclops
> - bi-directional 48 click bezel - i like bakelite for a material, though I doubt it's possible. I would rather see vintage colours employed in the bezel, where the blue is almost black, and the red is a very deep, bloody hue. I'd like to see a lumed bezel as well, i don't know if the 6542 had lumed numerals, or if just the triangle was lumed, but lume all around seems like the right way to do it.


this......or better yet, slap together your best guess Bill and make it available ASAP....you're practically guaranteed to sell them out no matter what and a lot of us would trust your judgement and taste in order to get something within a few months...


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## Izzy

Nicely put Charlie! I agree with you, droping the GMT movement will save a lot of time and heart ache....


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## tmoris

cpotters said:


> Ok, I think I'll weigh in here, too. First off, everybody remember that BECAUSE we had so much input into the Kingston's design and BECAUSE there were so many options/variations in MkII's final product, we added a solid year to the delivery time (accompanied by an auful lot of frustrated MkII fans). If you want to keep this more managable, give Bill the option to have "less options": it's gonna be a great watch regardless of the final configuration/s.
> 
> I'd say, make two models available: the Pan-America, a white dial, with black lettering and surrounds for the lume, with a pepsi "acrylic-like" bezel, roulette date wheel (with a cyclops with at least 2.5x magnificationtherwise, don't bother), red GMT hand. This is the "homage" to the PanAm executive model which - unless you're prepared to drop six-figures for a watch - is the closest any of us will come to this iconic configuration.
> 
> The second version is a black matte dial with gilded lettering and lume surrounds, coke "acrylic-like" bezel, and the same red gmt hand. This would be an homage to the "Pussy Galore" GMT worn by Honor Blackman in Goldfinger, and could be referred to, simply, as the "IMBD" ("I must be dreaming": Connery's quote upon hearing Pussy's name for the first time).
> 
> Both watches would share the already spec'd for manufaturing Kingston case AND rivited bracelet (the work is done already, and shaves more than 6 months off the delivery time), a smaller winding crown with MkII logo, a caseback that shows the globe with the MkII logo superimposed over it, the red GMT hand and the crystal with cyclops.
> 
> Bill's development would be:
> a: source a GMT movement, although I'm very happy with the one in the LRRP
> b: design a single new crown
> c: work out the crystal/cyclops issue - no small feat if its going to be done right
> d: draw up the spec's for the dials: the Black ones will take longer to make, so white dials get delivered first
> e: work out the bezel, again no small feat. acrylic would be the grail, but may prove just too difficult to get done right.
> 
> This is no small project, so I would be happy if there were just two choices. Heck, I might even buy them both. But the key here is to not have a huge menu of options. If Bill doesn't have to source the new GMT movement, this project could be completed with 12 months from the time it finally gets off the board, because of the fact that the case and bracelet specs are already with the manufacturers. Whatever the configuration, I'm in!


could you please post pics of the two?


----------



## BigHaole

How does the GMT movement in the LRRP function? 

I like the two simple configuration approach, but I would offer one adjustment, which would be in the spirit of the GMT Master. Produce a set of bezel inserts (Coke, Pepsi, Blue, Black) and allow buyers to purchase the set. If they're made to the same specs, but in different colors, I would hope the added cost would be small and I think many of us would happily pay an extra fee for the full set.


----------



## BigHaole

Oh, and the nice people at IMDB.com might take issue with us using that name.


----------



## Eric 0

I like both these configurations, and your logic about fewer options reducing burden is excellent. I used to own a clothing company, and the more colors and options, the longer everything takes. The effect can be exponential.

I love "Pan-America" and would use it for both versions, since the the black watch, although worn by Pussy, was conceived and designed for PanAm pilots. It would also make production easier I imagine to have a single design for logo, name and indices. If 2 names are desired, I suggest "Zulu" for the black one, since it is still pilot and govt/militaryslang for GMT time, and the black watches were for pilots.

Also, if the cyclopses are factory installed in switzerland, I suggest all cyclops. If they are added individually by bill, I'd request a no cyclops option, since deleting that feature won't create a extra part number.


----------



## Smeg

The more I read 'Pan-America', the more I love it.... I'm convinced we've found our name!



Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk


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## Quartersawn

Pan-America is brilliant.

If you get desperate you could call the black dialed version the Pan-Europa.


----------



## iCar

cpotters said:


> Ok, I think I'll weigh in here, too. First off, everybody remember that BECAUSE we had so much input into the Kingston's design and BECAUSE there were so many options/variations in MkII's final product, we added a solid year to the delivery time (accompanied by an auful lot of frustrated MkII fans). If you want to keep this more managable, give Bill the option to have "less options": it's gonna be a great watch regardless of the final configuration/s.
> 
> I'd say, make two models available: the Pan-America, a white dial, with black lettering and surrounds for the lume, with a pepsi "acrylic-like" bezel, roulette date wheel (with a cyclops with at least 2.5x magnificationtherwise, don't bother), red GMT hand. This is the "homage" to the PanAm executive model which - unless you're prepared to drop six-figures for a watch - is the closest any of us will come to this iconic configuration.
> 
> The second version is a black matte dial with gilded lettering and lume surrounds, coke "acrylic-like" bezel, and the same red gmt hand. This would be an homage to the "Pussy Galore" GMT worn by Honor Blackman in Goldfinger, and could be referred to, simply, as the "IMBD" ("I must be dreaming": Connery's quote upon hearing Pussy's name for the first time).
> 
> Both watches would share the already spec'd for manufaturing Kingston case AND rivited bracelet (the work is done already, and shaves more than 6 months off the delivery time), a smaller winding crown with MkII logo, a caseback that shows the globe with the MkII logo superimposed over it, the red GMT hand and the crystal with cyclops.
> 
> Bill's development would be:
> a: source a GMT movement, although I'm very happy with the one in the LRRP
> b: design a single new crown
> c: work out the crystal/cyclops issue - no small feat if its going to be done right
> d: draw up the spec's for the dials: the Black ones will take longer to make, so white dials get delivered first
> e: work out the bezel, again no small feat. acrylic would be the grail, but may prove just too difficult to get done right.
> 
> This is no small project, so I would be happy if there were just two choices. Heck, I might even buy them both. But the key here is to not have a huge menu of options. If Bill doesn't have to source the new GMT movement, this project could be completed with 12 months from the time it finally gets off the board, because of the fact that the case and bracelet specs are already with the manufacturers. Whatever the configuration, I'm in!


The two model idea is brilliant. The less options the better to avoid time delays. Or just let Bill design it. I trust his judgement.



Saxon007 said:


> Pan-America is brilliant.
> 
> If you get desperate you could call the black dialed version the Pan-Europa.


Pan-America and Pan-Europa sounds fantastic if there are two models.


----------



## TheDude

Been away a while.

Remember I'm #2 in line.   

Definitely these end links - the ones you took photos of on my Red Sub.










I'm all for silver hands, matte black face (non-gilt). An all-blue bezel would be a dream since this is military. I know I have mentioned this in the past but the photo in an earlier post on the blue nato is striking. I also like the all red hand but I would be partial to a small arrow like the original.

SILVER- roulette wheel, and a cyclops would be killer to show it off. Open 6s and 9s.

I am torn about the bracelet. Rivets would be nice, but as long as it's tapered I'm fine.

Bezel and datewheel fonts are -critical-. These cannot look modern and must have the proper thickness. I am fine with aluminum inserts.


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## MHe225

iCar said:


> The two model idea is brilliant. The less options the better to avoid time delays. Or just let Bill design it. I trust his judgement.


Not to take away from Charlie's brilliant post |> but it was my (maybe wrong) understanding altogether that Bill was just seeking input, opinions and views and that he was going to use those to design the Pan-America and offer it with limited or no options for customization. 
The two model option is a bit of a variation on the suggestion made by Menno and several others, to offer a spares kit with the alternate dial. Personally, I hate the two model suggestion ;-) as it will become quite expensive ..... :think: / :-d 
I too do trust Bill's judgement for the final design and I think that would indeed shave many months off the development time. If you want to get a feel for design by committee (i.e. all participants in the project), reread some of the Kingston threads or check out the current special projects on the Laco- and the Chinese Mechanical Watches-forums.

Pan-America is an excellent suggestion |>; personally, I'm not too hot on Pan-Europa (even though that's where my roots are) and we might face challenges using that name:









RonB


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## Buddha Jones

Baring any copyright infringements, and whatever else is decided cosmetically, I think that the dial, in whatever color, should look like this!


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## austinnh

First off, I trust Bill's judgement and will probably buy this watch no matter what happens.

Generally speaking, I like Charlie's suggestions! All I would add is:

*Silver date wheel!
That blue bezel would look GREAT with the white dial!!
*
More specifics of my own (i.e. the long version):
Dial
Depending on the lighting, guilt on white dial has the potential to look like white on white. Some pictures might persuade otherwise, but in my head it does not look good.

White lume (BGW9 or C1). Phony patina is the only thing that might be a deal-breaker for me.

Crystal
My concern about a high-rise crystal is that this will greatly increase the practical thickness of the watch. The Kingston is thick but it's fine because the crystal slops down to meet the bezel. If a higher crystal were used without making the case thinner elsewhere, that would be a thick watch! If you compare a vintage Sub with a high-rise crystal to a modern sub with a flat sapphire, you'll see the modern sub has a caseback that bulges out, while the vintage has a flatter caseback, so the overall thickness of both watches is similar. If the Kingston case could be redesigned in a similar way (flatter caseback in exchange for the higher crystal) I'd like it, but otherwise I'd be wary of just putting a high-rise crystal on a watch that also has a bulging caseback.

Could go either way on the cyclops, as long as it's done right, like Charlie said.

Movement
"True" GMT would be a plus and really set this watch apart. But not necessary.

Name
I don't like "Key West." Sorry guys. Still not a deal-breaker. "Lifestyle connotations" is one way of putting it.

"Clipper" makes it sounds like it's supposed to be a sailing watch.

I like all the other names. Pan-America, Worldport, 707, Panama, Zulu...


----------



## sschum

Let's keep this simple and it will get done sooner. Kingston case and crystal, with a smaller, MKII signed crown. Pepsi bezel. Choice of black dial for the pilots, and white/ivory dial for the management types.:-d Silver hands and a red GMT arrow hand. No faux aged lume. The Pan Am name and logo are still protected, so those items can't be used without paying a hefty (and needless) price. Pan American, Clipper or MKII GMT all work for me. :-!

Scott


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## BigHaole

sschum is correct, Pan Am Systems owns the name Pan Am and logo. With that being said, how about something like this for the caseback:









or









or the more cartoonish:









These are all open source images.


----------



## White Tuna

Also it is not important to me if this is a limited edition at all. 

To me the dial and bezel are the two most important things.


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## TheDude

How about "Air America" for the name?

After the CIA-owned civilian airline...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America_(airline)

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk


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## TheDude

White Tuna said:


> Also it is not important to me if this is a limited edition at all.
> 
> To me the dial and bezel are the two most important things.


Yes, and the fonts!!! This watch will look all wrong if the bezel and datewheel fonts are modern like the current LRRP GMT insert.

The Kingston got the bezel font perfectly right - a dead ringer for the vintage Rolex it pays homage to. The same MUST happen for this watch.

If I'm correct, I think the modern mockup was done with a Steinhart picture. While a nice watch, the details simply make my skin crawl. The Pan-Am should -not- be this watch. This watch exists, it can be ordered and delivered in days. The Pan-Am must be more.



















See the difference in the bezel font and datewheel font?

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk


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## TheDude

BTW, I still love the aged lume look. I think Steinhart is on to something, they are making dials with believable vintage lume hues.


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## Watchamacallit

Hi Bill,

Thanks for asking. I'm still in. 

_Dial and Hands_

IIRC the black dial GMT was issued to flight crews (pilots, navigators, flight engineers), while the white dialled ones were purchased for executives (bean counters).  Hence only a black dial can satisfy the _Walter Mitty_ in me.

I think the relative length and shape of the hands in this picture is perfect:









_Bezel, Inlay, and Crystal_

The bezel ought to be bi-directional as it is not a diving watch. I'd like two-tone, muted colors, but no fake aging!

Now look at all those curves:









If at all feasible, I'd love the bulbous looks of an acrylic bezel inlay and crystal. Only offer a cyclops if it can be had in a decent magnification.

I like the name "Key West". It's a subtle reference, a place name like "Kingston", and even starts with a "K".


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## Cowbiker

TheDude said:


> How about "Air America" for the name?
> 
> After the CIA-owned civilian airline...
> 
> Air America (airline) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk


:-!


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## TimeOnTarget

There are many great ideas and suggestions offered here. I would like to see a watch that captures the feel of the original watch. Black vs white dial option would be nice, but I agree that we need to keep this project simple to avoid time and cost issues.

I have read several books about Juan Trippe and Pan Am. The Clipper name is significant because all Pan Am airplanes were called Clippers and the company was heavily influenced by their flying boat naval tradition. Pan Am was the first airline to fly the 747 but the 707 would be valid also. Rather than argue about a name, I would prefer to keep the dial simple with "MKII" only if it comes to that.

Please don't make the crown too small. Some of us would be manipulating it quite often.


----------



## timbo

IIRC, the original is a 6mm crown. Which is only small compared to the Kingston - it's a 'normal' sized crown


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## MDS

"Let's keep this simple and it will get done sooner. Kingston case and crystal, with a smaller, MKII signed crown. Pepsi bezel. Choice of black dial for the pilots, and white/ivory dial for the management types.:-d Silver hands and a red GMT arrow hand. No faux aged lume. The Pan Am name and logo are still protected, so those items can't be used without paying a hefty (and needless) price. Pan American, Clipper or MKII GMT all work for me."


This makes sense to me. Personally, I could go with a acryllic crystal, but would prefer a double dome sapphire as I see this as a MKII trademark element. iBill has been making them for years and everyone I have is fantastic. 

I also have no real preference regarding bezel insert material as long as it is red and blue. 48 clicks works for me.

I also do not want a cyclops; and no aged lume

I am in in the camp of a tasteful homage/watch inspired design without having to have every detail replicated exactly...case shape/style, but with some modern updates (double domed sapphire like the Kingston, which is really awesome) suits me fine.


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## aviate

There are a bunch of great ideas here...for me:

Lug width of 20mm with a bracelet that tapers...the most comfortable bracelet I have is the 1171 on my Speedy Pro and it goes from 20 to 16mm.
would be fine with using the Kingston case (love the drilled thru lugs, size/weight and that it could simplify the project)
Black dial without surrounds, no aged lume...gilt wouldn't be a deal breaker after looking at 'theDude's' photo
Roulette date wheel with a vintage font (I do like the Kingston's, don't like the one on the later Marathon SAR), silver metal wheel would be great (as per theDude)
'normal' mercedes hands in silver/chrome/nickel (again like the Kingston's)
if pepsi bezel nice dark colours as another suggested earlier, material is less important but I am wary of sapphire (expense and modernity)
would love an acrylic crystal with cyclops but would do sapphire with cyclops...no cyclops wouldn't be a deal breaker
at this time would only end up with a white dial if it came as extra...and then would probably kick myself after if only white was available
These thoughts are from a watch enthusiast looking for long term ownership with a watch of moderate size and weight. In my opinion the other offerings on the market don't fill my list.

Thank you for asking.


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## TheDude

Guys, I think we should give up on the acrylic crystal idea.

These must be replaced at every service, and this would put an incredible burden for keeping lots of spare parts around that Bill doesn't have right now. Also, unless they're done right, they will be very hit or miss on watertightness. Not good.

To put it in perspective, a Rolex plexi is about $100 - to be replaced every 5 years on a vintage watch if you want to ensure it's waterproof. Only the most original ancient grails are kept with old battered crystals, and these are kept far far away from water.


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## cpotters

TheDude said:


> Guys, I think we should give up on the acrylic crystal idea.
> 
> These must be replaced at every service, and this would put an incredible burden for keeping lots of spare parts around that Bill doesn't have right now. Also, unless they're done right, they will be very hit or miss on watertightness. Not good.
> 
> To put it in perspective, a Rolex plexi is about $100 - to be replaced every 5 years on a vintage watch if you want to ensure it's waterproof. Only the most original ancient grails are kept with old battered crystals, and these are kept far far away from water.


Dude: as usual, you are right on target. I forget that with all of the vintage divers I have its only the MkIIs that go in the water. Bill's mission has ALWAYS been to be respectful of the classic designs, while updating what would have been updated if those features/materials had been available at that time to the original manufacturers. The Kingston's crystal is the right kind, but it is entirely up to Bill about the cyclops then: there is no way he will want to affix hundreds of little cyclopses to the saphire crystals.

Bill, if you're reading this: I am flexible, and I trust your judgement completely. Make the watch YOU want, and I'll probably want it, too.


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## tako_watch

MDS said:


> "*Let's keep this simple* and it will get done sooner. Kingston case and crystal, with a smaller, MKII signed crown. Pepsi bezel. Choice of black dial for the pilots, and white/ivory dial for the management types.:-d Silver hands and a red GMT arrow hand. ... *would prefer a double dome sapphire as I see this as a MKII trademark element. iBill has been making them for years and everyone I have is fantastic. *
> 
> *I am in in the camp of a tasteful homage/watch inspired design without having to have every detail replicated exactly*...case shape/style, but with some modern updates (double domed sapphire like the Kingston, which is really awesome) suits me fine.


this...


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## MHe225

*Dude*, you're right -d always wanted to write that) but I think the concern about WR is a bit of a moot point (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong): wouldn't we need a screwed crown for serious water resistance? Don't think anyone has mentioned that as a must-have. I like hesalites, although they are not must-haves for me and agree on how sensitive they are .... the "crystal" on my Speedmaster Pro looked horrible after just 10 years of very modest and careful usage.

Like several already mentioned, I think we've given Bill more than an ear-full of what we want and I'm fine with radio-silence after this thread closes and accepting whatever Bill comes up with. I'm sure that we will not be disappointed.

RonB


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## austinnh

I would be perfectly happy with sapphire.


----------



## nsmike

MHe225 said:


> *Dude*, you're right -d always wanted to write that) but I think the concern about WR is a bit of a moot point (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong): wouldn't we need a screwed crown for serious water resistance?
> RonB


NO!!, It's the quality and fitting of the internal seal, a screwed down crown adds little.


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## austinnh

I thought this was going to be based on the Kingston case, which already has a screw-down crown...


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## Thieuster

austinnh said:


> I thought this was going to be based on the Kingston case, which already has a screw-down crown...


So am (was) I. For a moment I thought that a non screw-down crown is easier for adjusting the GMT hand. But on second thought I realised that the LRRP has a GMT hand and a screw-down crown. And I never considered the unscrewing-before-adjusting action difficult or irritating. So, I'm back where I was: I also thought that this watch is going to be based on the Kingston case.

Menno


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## INDECS

I totally agree... keep things simple for Bill and this watch will happen within a reasonable time.

*Existing parts:*
- Kingston case
- Kingston bezel
- Kingston bracelet
- Kingston silver hands
- Kingston double domed crystal

*Redesign/look into:*
- Dial(s), and decide on the name (Poll?)
- Small crown
- GMT hand with small triangle
- Bezel inlay(s)
Some kind of a acrylic "cover" would be sweet but I'm not sure if it's possible on the existing Kingston bezel since it's slightly angled.
- Roulette date wheel
- 48-click bezel mechanism for the Kingston bezel
- Maybe a different GMT movement

That should be it, right?


----------



## cpotters

INDECS said:


> I totally agree... keep things simple for Bill and this watch will happen within a reasonable time.
> 
> *Existing parts:*
> - Kingston case
> - Kingston bezel
> - Kingston bracelet
> - Kingston silver hands
> - Kingston double domed crystal
> 
> *Redesign/look into:*
> - Dial(s), and decide on the name (Poll?)
> - Small crown
> - GMT hand with small triangle
> - Bezel inlay(s)
> Some kind of a acrylic "cover" would be sweet but I'm not sure if it's possible on the existing Kingston bezel since it's slightly angled.
> - Roulette date wheel
> - 48-click bezel mechanism for the Kingston bezel
> - Maybe a different GMT movement
> 
> That should be it, right?


Sounds about right to me.


----------



## MHe225

austinnh said:


> I thought this was going to be based on the Kingston case, which already has a screw-down crown...


Borrowing from Menno: so am (was) I.

Apologies for the confusion I have caused, but I've never interpreted _"Trip-lock" style crown, diameter 8 mm_ in the Kingston description as screw-down crown. And since I haven't seen a Kingston in the metal as of yet, am still waiting on mine and don't recall someone specifically mentioning the screw-down action of sad crown, it never occurred to me that it actually is. Sorry for that. :-(

I am very much on board with INDECS' comprehensive list of specs. Maybe time to close the thread and for Mr. Yao to get busy? ;-) & :-d (not that we're pushing :-d)

RonB

*PS* - you learn something new every day; that's why I keep coming back.


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## TheDude

The crown being screw-down (or not) has everything to do with the case tube that is installed in the case.

I had always assumed it would screw down on this watch - like the Vantage and the Kingston and the LRRP (and probably the others) because there's no good reason for it not to be.

This is a photo from a few years ago (literally) when Bill showed off the case tube for the Kingston. It's the big one. The little one was there for comparison.


----------



## gonzomantis

TheDude said:


> Guys, I think we should give up on the acrylic crystal idea.
> 
> These must be replaced at every service, and this would put an incredible burden for keeping lots of spare parts around that Bill doesn't have right now. Also, unless they're done right, they will be very hit or miss on watertightness. Not good.
> 
> To put it in perspective, a Rolex plexi is about $100 - to be replaced every 5 years on a vintage watch if you want to ensure it's waterproof. Only the most original ancient grails are kept with old battered crystals, and these are kept far far away from water.


I'm okay with whatever choice for the crystal is made, but I don't think that plexi needs to be ruled out. I figure it would play out one of two ways:

1. The plexi crystal is a readily available part, and can be easily sourced when the time comes.
2. The plexi crystal is custom made. In this scenario it would certainly require some minimum order quantity. Why not supply the watch with 1 or 2 extras as spares? This has already been done by other companies (i.e. the PRS-14).


----------



## Watchamacallit

TheDude said:


> I had always assumed it would screw down on this watch ... because there's no good reason for it not to be.


There _is_ a good reason: it's unnecessary and needlessly gets in the way when adjusting the watch.


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## Quartersawn

Watchamacallit said:


> There _is_ a good reason: it's unnecessary and needlessly gets in the way when adjusting the watch.


That is not a good reason - a screw down crown is a very minor inconvenience and well wroth the trouble. Rolex obviously thought it was a good idea since the 6542 - the watch this project is based on - had an oyster case with screw down crown.


----------



## timbo

I don't believe MKII has produced a watch without a screw-down crown - even the Quad 10, which is another 'pilot' watch like the Pan Am. 

Another aspect to consider is depth rating of the watch. I believe the 6542 is 50m. One would hope the watch could be produced a bit cheaper if it isn't a 200m rating. I would expect tolerances for seals, gaskets, crown tube assembly, labour, etc, could be a bit looser, bringing down overall cost. The savings could be put into a knockout bezel insert (acrylic, good colour, lume).


----------



## rmasso

If i recall correctly, the small crown tube in that photo is from the LRRP.



TheDude said:


> The crown being screw-down (or not) has everything to do with the case tube that is installed in the case.
> 
> I had always assumed it would screw down on this watch - like the Vantage and the Kingston and the LRRP (and probably the others) because there's no good reason for it not to be.
> 
> This is a photo from a few years ago (literally) when Bill showed off the case tube for the Kingston. It's the big one. The little one was there for comparison.


----------



## Reintitan

Watchamacallit said:


> There _is_ a good reason: it's unnecessary and needlessly gets in the way when adjusting the watch.


Disagree. ALL Rolex Oyster watches have screw down crowns and that's including every single reference of the GMT-Master: 6542, 1675, 16750, 16700, 16760, 16710, 116710.


----------



## TheDude

timbo said:


> Another aspect to consider is depth rating of the watch. I believe the 6542 is 50m. One would hope the watch could be produced a bit cheaper if it isn't a 200m rating. I would expect tolerances for seals, gaskets, crown tube assembly, labour, etc, could be a bit looser, bringing down overall cost. The savings could be put into a knockout bezel insert (acrylic, good colour, lume).


I tend to agree. Let's make it 100m as this is what Rolex has been rating GMTs to for some time now. The current model of Rolex GMT is only rated to 100m and it has a Triplock crown (the first GMT to get the Triplock).


----------



## TheDude

INDECS said:


> *Existing parts:*
> - Kingston case
> - Kingston bezel
> - Kingston bracelet
> - Kingston silver hands
> - Kingston double domed crystal


I don't think the Kingston crystal is well-suited. I'd rather see a flat crystal, but one that is "proud". If a cyclops were to be affixed, it would need to be flat.

This Steinhart crystal is sapphire, but is extremely proud - more like what you would see in old acrylics.


----------



## Smeg

Agreed -100m is great. Won't be wearing it diving but it will be nice to go in the pool without any worries. 

Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk


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## Arthur

As much as I love Plexi crystals,andI've had a bunch of them over the years and still have a few, they are problematic. Rolex which is notorious for being evolutionary rather than revolutionary switched to sapphire years ago, had to be a reason for the switch. Over time, with exposure to sunlight, temperature fluctuations, water, etc. the plexi deteriorates. It may not be noticable, but it can occur, and then your water resistance may be shot. They should be replaced at every scheduled service. Herein lies the problem, who is going to stockpile replacement crystals? We don't want to paint ourselves into a corner over a part that while asthetically pleasing, could be a source of real problems in the future.


----------



## rmasso

Arthur said:


> As much as I love Plexi crystals,andI've had a bunch of them over the years and still have a few, they are problematic. Rolex which is notorious for being evolutionary rather than revolutionary switched to sapphire years ago, had to be a reason for the switch. Over time, with exposure to sunlight, temperature fluctuations, water, etc. the plexi deteriorates. It may not be noticable, but it can occur, and then your water resistance may be shot. They should be replaced at every scheduled service. Herein lies the problem, who is going to stockpile replacement crystals? We don't want to paint ourselves into a corner over a part that while asthetically pleasing, could be a source of real problems in the future.


Agreed, I love plexiglass aesthetically but as TheDude shows above and as Rolex has shown, I think the effect can be achieved with Sapphire as well.
Rich


----------



## Izzy

TheDude said:


> I don't think the Kingston crystal is well-suited. I'd rather see a flat crystal, but one that is "proud". If a cyclops were to be affixed, it would need to be flat.
> 
> This Steinhart crystal is sapphire, but is extremely proud - more like what you would see in old acrylics.
> 
> View attachment 550534
> 
> 
> View attachment 550537
> 
> 
> View attachment 550538


Thanks for sharing Dude. I like the look of this crystal, as it sits proud. It will be an improvement on the Kingston and Milsub...which are just too flat.


----------



## aviate

Interesting point about trying to find replacement crystals down the road...not a problem with the Speedmaster due to the amount made but could be an issue with a watch on a smaller scale.

Would still really love a good quality cyclops though...


----------



## rmasso

TheDude said:


> I don't think the Kingston crystal is well-suited. I'd rather see a flat crystal, but one that is "proud". If a cyclops were to be affixed, it would need to be flat.
> 
> This Steinhart crystal is sapphire, but is extremely proud - more like what you would see in old acrylics.
> 
> View attachment 550534
> 
> 
> View attachment 550537
> 
> 
> View attachment 550538


Anybody own one of these? If so what do you think? Build quality, bezel action, accuracy? I think bill needs to put something similar to this together. Then he can also offer it with a GMt hand as well.


----------



## INDECS

I've had a Steinhart Ocean One Vintage Red earlier this year.
That one had the proud plexi crystal and the new bezel.


It seems they've updated the crystal to domed sapphire, but the pics still look exactly the same. Could it be they recently changed the specs but haven't yet updated the pics?
Meaning the domed sapphire might actually look differently.


The same thing happened when they introduced the new bezel… they were already selling the new types but the pics on their website still showed the older models. (back then I emailed with Günter about this and he confirmed).


----------



## rmasso

Thanks for the info. That's helpful and might be the case.


----------



## Cowbiker

RE: Plexi vs. Sapphire

Regarding Sapphire getting plexi like shapes, even if they could do the big domes, a sapphire will not develop the warmth a plexi does as the material ages, and beyond the great shapes plexi can yield the asthetic of the material as it ages have yet to be replicated with sapphire.

Additionally, I've seen several vintage Roli's with tropical plexi's that won't pass drytesting and owners chose not to replace them with modern service plexi's which don't have the shape, the watches just see limited action, if any given their values.

(Tropic 19, superdome 39, etc.)

http://i52.tinypic.com/2qwlniq.jpg

http://i52.tinypic.com/izvtz9.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmOucDI3YdZ4O7mMpAV4oB-nMyJLitz4n_8kojPMPP_GjfBUIEuTsHsWNw


----------



## Thieuster

I agree with all of you when we're talking about the plexi's aesthetic superiority. But... there's a practical side to this issue too. MKIIs are bought and worn by people who want a nice looking-but-practical watch on their wrists. And correct me if I'm wrong. Plexi and practical don't go together very well, I think. And then there's the high domed plexi. Man, it looks fantastic, but wearing a watch with a high domed plexi isn't for the fainthearted! There's always a voice wispering in my ear: "Be careful, not to close to that wall with your wrist" - 'Oooh, that was close, better be careful next time..." And then there's deadliest of all sentences: "I told you..." I know what I'm talking about: my Precista PRS5 has a high domed plexi. And although it's unscratched, I'm not too happy with it!

I'm wearing my Kingston at the moment. I realise that the shape of that crystal doesnt' go well with a cyclops. Perhaps a Steinhart-ish crystal with or without a cyclop is an option? As long as it's sapphire.


----------



## TheDude

Thieuster said:


> I agree with all of you when we're talking about the plexi's aesthetic superiority. But... there's a practical side to this issue too. MKIIs are bought and worn by people who want a nice looking-but-practical watch on their wrists. And correct me if I'm wrong. Plexi and practical don't go together very well, I think. And then there's the high domed plexi. Man, it looks fantastic, but wearing a watch with a high domed plexi isn't for the fainthearted! There's always a voice wispering in my ear: "Be careful, not to close to that wall with your wrist" - 'Oooh, that was close, better be careful next time..." And then there's deadliest of all sentences: "I told you..." I know what I'm talking about: my Precista PRS5 has a high domed plexi. And although it's unscratched, I'm not too happy with it!
> 
> I'm wearing my Kingston at the moment. I realise that the shape of that crystal doesnt' go well with a cyclops. Perhaps a Steinhart-ish crystal with or without a cyclop is an option? As long as it's sapphire.


Well, plexi is -very- practical from a utility perspective. Plexi was the material in Rolexes when Rolex made its reputation. Plexi goes to space. Plexi cracks and doesn't shatter. However, it requires more upkeep and it scratches if you look at it.

A very proud Sapphire can and will chip along the edges, so they aren't a guarantee that you can swing your arm with abandon.


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## Cowbiker

So it's clear I'm not talking out of the side of my mouth here, I wear a tall plexi daily and I have more blemishes on the face of the case than the crystal.


----------



## TheDude

Cowbiker said:


> So it's clear I'm not talking out of the side of my mouth here, I wear a tall plexi daily and I have more blemishes on the face of the case than the crystal.


Very nice 249!!


----------



## Cowbiker

OT: Thx.


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## rmasso

Thieuster said:


> ...a high domed plexi isn't for the fainthearted! There's always a voice wispering in my ear: "Be careful, not to close to that wall with your wrist" - 'Oooh, that was close, better be careful next time..."


LOL and here I thought I was crazy!! I should show my wife there's more of us out there! ;-)


----------



## Reintitan

No plexi. It'll be a nightmare for Bill to fit them onto the watches as it'll cost extra $$$$$ to replace all those damaged in the crystal press and those that are scratched/damaged during handling. That equates to delays and extra costs. Bill has the tooling, expertise, and process for mass assembling sapphire crystals NOW.

200 meter water resistance is default with the Kingston case. Why downgrade it to 100 meters? Just to match the GMT-Master? In this case, "homaging" the water resistance is silly. The only MkII watch that I know of that has "only" 100 meter WR is the Quad10. And that's because its case and seals were designed that way. The Kingston case is designed for 200 meter WR.


----------



## sschum

Reintitan said:


> No plexi. It'll be a nightmare for Bill to fit them onto the watches as it'll cost extra $$$$$ to replace all those damaged in the crystal press and those that are scratched/damaged during handling. That equates to delays and extra costs. Bill has the tooling, expertise, and process for mass assembling sapphire crystals NOW.
> 
> 200 meter water resistance is default with the Kingston case. Why downgrade it to 100 meters? Just to match the GMT-Master? In this case, "homaging" the water resistance is silly. The only MkII watch that I know of that has "only" 100 meter WR is the Quad10. And that's because its case and seals were designed that way. The Kingston case is designed for 200 meter WR.


This


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## Smeg

Plexi isn't a deal killer for me but I'd prefer a domed sapphire. I love the vintage look but like the modern technology.


----------



## Izzy

This is vintage plexi dome. Gives the watch a completely different perspective.

Courtsey of: 100PERCENT-Rolex


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## TheDude

Izzy said:


> This is vintage plexi dome. Gives the watch a completely different perspective.
> 
> Courtsey of: 100PERCENT-Rolex


I would never think to put a tropical on a GMT. There's an earlier post showing the correct crystal for the ncg GMT.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk


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## TheDude

Reintitan said:


> 200 meter water resistance is default with the Kingston case. Why downgrade it to 100 meters? Just to match the GMT-Master? In this case, "homaging" the water resistance is silly. The only MkII watch that I know of that has "only" 100 meter WR is the Quad10. And that's because its case and seals were designed that way. The Kingston case is designed for 200 meter WR.


Not quite. Water resistance is affected by several elements. Case and seals, the crystal selected, and the crown+tube selected.

The Pan Am aims to change the crystal and the crown+tube at the very least. This may or may not mean 200m is a challenge, but if it does pose a problem, Bill could end up wasting valuable time getting assembled cases to pass pressure.

100m was only suggested in the context of streamlining and speeding up delivery. Rolex was only mentioned to validate such a decision.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk


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## alpapilot

Here's my input:

Name - There currently is a charter airline that has licensed the name and logo "Pan Am". They fly 727's and keep shutting down, re-starting operations as the FAA keeps revoking their maintenance certificate. Please please do not try to use that name or logo as dealing with those folks over their would be a nightmare.

The name "Worldport" makes me think of asbestos and pigeon feces (that is what it is currently filled with). That place is a major embarrassment for current Delta crews and we can't wait until it is imploded.

My vote would be for "Clipper". For us pilots that name means a lot more and is instantly recognizable. 

Another cool name could be "30 West" (or Thirty West). That is the midpoint longitude reporting point of an Atlantic crossing. At 30 west we switch from Gander Oceanic to Shanwick. It also denotes the whole world time thing of the watch.

For the specs of the watch itself I say just go with the Kingston case and crystal. A sapphire bezel would rock but, acrylic would be fine too. But, I really think the crystal should be domed sapphire. WR should stay at 200m. Let's make this watch better than the original in every way that we can.


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## cpotters

Wow. Alot of buzz about the crystal. Here's what I'm thinking (fwiw): if Bill makes a mockup of the first "PanAmerica" using a Kingston case, bracelet and CRYSTAL, then swaps out the movement, crown and case tube for the LRRP, THEN dummies up a white dial w/black print with a different (smaller) red GMT hand and NO cyclops (just for the mockup to see how this configuration looks), I'll bet $10 to the first taker that most of you will love the bloody thing just as it sits and would order it just like that - even with the exiting Kingston crystal (which may - in actuality - not be possible because of the hand clearance required for the GMT).

All I'm saying (again) is to trust Bill's esthetic judgement - which is usually spot on for me - and let him produce the watch HE wants to make. I like this company. A lot. And I have a ton of respect for the man behind it and want to see his business flourish. I do not know whether that business and his otherwise sterling reputation could take another round of internet griping and grumbling from hordes of unhappy customers who once again get frustrated with a long and opaque production run. 

If the Kingston crystal works for Bill, great. If he has another idea, great. He he wants to make a run at a cyclops, great. I'm sure enough of us feel that way. Go ahead, Bill. Surprise us. We're ready.


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## Izzy

I did not say put a high dome tropic crystal on the GMT. I provided these images as an illustration of the how on vintage watches the plexi glass rises higher above the bezel which gives the watch more character and hence is more attractive (to my eyes..granted some may not like it).

May be I should have shown a GMT with a tropic 38 without a cyclops to also illustrate my point:


----------



## Yao

Ok.....discussion is certainly heating up. 

I will have to tell you this that we will likely only have an opportunity to do one "new" thing on this watch. This is because (like the trip-lock style case tube/crown) even small changes can lead to huge delays because often times you just don't know what is going to happen. The tolerances in manufacturing watches (if you are going to do it carefully) are so tight that "new" stuff or suppliers can post a lot of unexpected challenges. 

For Plexi: The real problem is that you can have stress cracking if it's not fitted properly. In addition plastic can be very difficult to work with if you don't have the expertise. The biggest problem in my opinion is that getting an attractive crystal made will be a challenge. More likely than not it would have to be custom manufactured and good molds are expensive.

For Sapphire: Obviously there are fewer unknowns here. However the one option (and it will be difficult) is to use a "bottle-top" style sapphire crystal that more closely mimics the old plexi. This is substantially more expensive but if you want I will ask the case manufacturer.

On another front....I am hoping to place an order for a roulette date wheel in January but in case ETA gets more difficult to work with I have ordered a bunch of date wheel blanks and lined up a secondary (although un-tested) supplier to print them.


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## Thieuster

Thanks Bill, great tk know you're following this thread closely. I'm not sure I'm familiar with the looks of a bottle-top style sapphire. Perhaps I've already seen one, but I cannot connect the term with a pic of that sapphire at the mo. I'm sure, there's a fellow forum member who can provide me (us) with a pic.

Menno


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## Yao

Thieuster said:


> Thanks Bill, great tk know you're following this thread closely. I'm not sure I'm familiar with the looks of a bottle-top style sapphire. Perhaps I've already seen one, but I cannot connect the term with a pic of that sapphire at the mo. I'm sure, there's a fellow forum member who can provide me (us) with a pic.
> 
> Menno


Its the same kind we will be using for the Project 300. If you look at the current Speedmasters for example they all use a crystal that looks like its acrylic but its really sapphire glass shaped to look like acrylic. This is a difficult/expensive technique.


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## Thieuster

Thanks Bill, that makes sense!

Menno


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## INDECS

That would look something like this.
Speedmaster sapphire crystal (left) and acrylic crystal (right):










Pic by "Malenkov in Exile" on flickr.


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## Thieuster

Thanks! Very clear pic. (Almost wrote this in Dutch, but most members are from outside out country)

Menno


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## White Tuna

Bill, please see this post regarding the date wheel and font. 

Also I would prefer a very dark blue/navy to black for text and markings if we are going with a pepsi dial. A navy is a subtle change that really shows up when paired with other blues and goes with more colors than black. Most men should not be wearing black suits unless they are a valet, bouncer, priest, going to a funeral or a formal event in the evening.


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## rmasso

INDECS said:


> That would look something like this.
> Speedmaster sapphire crystal (left) and acrylic crystal (right):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pic by "Malenkov in Exile" on flickr.


I have the speedy hesalite (Right) and for a split second after reading all these posts I thought "maybe I should just have gone with sapphire" and this picture tells me I made the right decision. Is it more upkeep? Yes, but boy does it look nicer and that is how that watch was meant to be!
Rich


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## austinnh

^Putting a crystal that shape (sapphire or plexi) on the Kingston case might make a more thick-wearing watch. I'm wary of it.


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## Yao

austinnh said:


> ^Putting a crystal that shape (sapphire or plexi) on the Kingston case might make a more thick-wearing watch. I'm wary of it.


Its hard to make a change like that and resist the urge to re-design the rest of the case to suit it. Usually changes like this can be sub-optimal as you note.


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## Yao

White Tuna said:


> Bill, please see this post regarding the date wheel and font.
> 
> Also I would prefer a very dark blue/navy to black for text and markings if we are going with a pepsi dial. A navy is a subtle change that really shows up when paired with other blues and goes with more colors than black. Most men should not be wearing black suits unless they are a valet, bouncer, priest, going to a funeral or a formal event in the evening.


Slow down (kidding)...I am just starting to read up on mens' "styling" but I see you point 

In any event just so you guys know there pretty much won't be an option to "copy" the font off the original. That in my mind would be crossing a line. We have to add something to make a watch an homage and for the sake of making sure we don't create something that can altered and passed off as a Rolex. I guess from that standpoint you will may have to trust my judgement.

I think the Kingston is a good example of a watch that creates a vintage feel and evokes the qualities of the vintage version without duplicating it.


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## TheDude

Yao said:


> I think the Kingston is a good example of a watch that creates a vintage feel and evokes the qualities of the vintage version without duplicating it.


Good, then I don't see why this bezel font can't be at least as close to the 6542 as the Kingston bezel font is to the 6538.

I don't see how this could be passed off as a Rolex part. The 6542 was 36mm. I have seen them in the flesh and they are tiny. Also, our materials are different.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk


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## TheDude

Izzy said:


> I did not say put a high dome tropic crystal on the GMT. I provided these images as an illustration of the how on vintage watches the plexi glass rises higher above the bezel which gives the watch more character and hence is more attractive (to my eyes..granted some may not like it).
> 
> May be I should have shown a GMT with a tropic 38 without a cyclops to also illustrate my point:


Then we want the same thing. The images I posted of the Steinhart sapphire look just like your pics.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk


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## Watchamacallit

TheDude said:


> .. I don't see why this bezel font can't be at least as close to the 6542 ...


I think this was not about the type on the bezel but about the open 6s and 9s on the Rolex date wheel.



> Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk


Guys, can you turn that off? I mean everybody?


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## TheDude

Watchamacallit said:


> I think this was not about the type on the bezel but about the open 6s and 9s on the Rolex date wheel.
> 
> Guys, can you turn that off? I mean everybody?


Yeah, I realized that but wanted to express the thought about the insert too.

Yeah I can kill the signature tag


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## aviate

Couple or three thoughts from the continuing discussion...especially after Bill's comments regarding limiting the changes to one real change for timeline issues...

Crystal - Looked at Ofrei.com and they are asking *$596.00* for a new sapphire crystal like the one shown in the picture that compares the sapphire and hesalite crystals on the Speedmaster Pro. Obviously I don't know what the cost would be for this part on this particular watch but Omega seems to ask approximately $180ish for their other sapphire crystals with A/R. This isn't a push for an acrylic dial. Bill has mentioned some of the difficulties here about working with acrylic and there might be others...unknown unknowns so to speak.

Bezel - really like the idea of making the blue a nice dark blue as compared to some of the lighter blues in Pepsi bezels. This link, posted earlier in the thread, highlights how nice the dark blue could be...

STEFANO MAZZARIOL BLOG: Rolex GMT-MASTER ref .6542 ALBINO

As does these pictures Arther and White Tuna posted in another Pan-Am thread:

https://www.watchuseek.com/attachments/f325/545088d1319852113-pan-am-dead-rolexgmt.jpg

https://www.watchuseek.com/attachments/f325/544950d1319831865-pan-am-dead-gmt.jpg

Cyclops - would really like at least the option for a cyclops with sufficient magnification.

Other than that I am really curious about what MK II take on the watch will be, you know that certain something that made the Kingston, among others, so successful.

Dial - Personally I would still really like a black dial. Also if the black dial shown in Stefano Mazzariol's blog is gilt...that would be really nice too.

Thanks


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## Cowbiker

TheDude said:


> ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Purdy... ;-)


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## Smeg

I've never owned an MKII but from what I've seen I trust Bill's interpretation to be something I'd love...now if Bill's interpretation included a white dial option... : )


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## Eric 0

I really like Bill's comment about the font not being the same. It is telling of how much he thinks about the meaning of an "homage" from a conceptual and artistic point of view. It is distinct in his thinking from a reproduction, recreation, or copy. It is like a physical echo, and begins to get at what can be so special about vintage watches, or cars, or hats for that matter. They transport us through time, and help us imagine the people who wore them, maybe before some of us were born. Fakes and reproductions don't have this effect. They are defined by what they are not, like the meatless soy based "unbacon" that vegetarians must content themselves with. An "homage" like Bill has been doing tells a story about history without lying to you. Like a work of historical fiction, it takes you to a place in time that lives between history and imagination. 

The kingston works particularly well because Bond is a fictional and iconic character, and a kind of ridiculous one at that. The idea of an "authentic" James Bond watch would be kind of silly. He's not a very realistic spy.

Whatever it ends up being, I suspect the Pan Am will evoke the dawn of the jet age, and the sense of naive optimism and possibility that that era evokes now, whatever the crystal is made of.

BTW, just got my Kingston in the mail this morning. I love it.


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## rmasso

Echoing what Eric 0 mentions in his post above... If I were to wear a copy/knock-off and someone asked me about it, I would not feel good, hence why I don't wear copies or knock-offs. In the case of Bil's homages though, if someone were to ask me about it, I would tell them with pride what it is. I don't feel any lesser pride that it is not a Rolex because the way I see it this is an homage to the Rolex Connery wore in Dr. No. That is how I see it and it is in its own right one h*ll of a watch. It is a current interpretation of a vintage design using modern materials and techniques. I have no doubt that we will still see some Kingston's floating around in ten or even twenty years. With the collecting mania that has hit the world, no one discards anything anymore which means things will be around much longer.
Just my two cents.
Rich


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## TheDude

So the rule is we can make a watch closer to the piece that inspired it as long as we identify it with a fictional character? Great. Pussy Galore wore a 6542. 

Am I allowed to ask for the watch I'd like to have now? ;-)


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## rmasso

TheDude said:


> So the rule is we can make a watch closer to the piece that inspired it as long as we identify it with a fictional character? Great. Pussy Galore wore a 6542.
> 
> Am I allowed to ask for the watch I'd like to have now? ;-)


LOL, good one Dude.


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## austinnh

Just to be clear, I agree with you, Dude, about the bezel font. It's one of these things that distinguishes the Kingston and hopefully the Panamerizulumasterclipper, or whatever we're going to call it, from other modern watches. I think bezel font is a matter of design that pulls the whole watch together into a certain look and feel.

I also appreciate that Bill distinguishes between a "copy" and an "homage," and makes a point of producing the latter, not the former.

It's true though; with it's larger case, I don't think this will ever be passed off as a Rolex.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

:-! Thanks- (Sent from my keyboard using large fumble-fingers.....LOL)


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## Thieuster

> It's true though; with it's larger case, I don't think this will ever be passed off as a Rolex.


I wouldn't be too sure about that! Look what Rolex did with the Explorer: for years it was a 36mm icon. Then Bill came up with the 39mm Vantage and Rolex followed with their 39mm Explorer... :-d

(little off topic) Parallel to the wonderful world of watches, in the classic car scene, the same thing happens: remakes/homages/copies of well known cars: Le Mans winners that are rebuilt etc. Often using a few original parts added with new parts, made to make us believe that it's the genuine car... At the other end, there are people trying to recreate a car 'in the spirit' of the original. And like Bill (and we) they draw the line: homage, not a copy. In the classic car scene, these cars are often referred to as 'tribute car'. And that term is widely accepted these days.

Menno


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## tomr

Larger than the original 6538, which was a little over 36mm; but, at 39.20mm, the Kingston is virtually the same size as a current Rolex Sub, which is listed as 40mm. However, even with its similarities, Bill's creation is a complementary blend of nostalgic elements, modern technology and individual design resulting in a very unique watch.
It's true though; with it's larger case, I don't think this will ever be passed off as a Rolex.[/QUOTE]


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## austinnh

^I should be more specific. I meant the Kingston would not be passed off as a big crown sub (because of its size). And it certainly won't be passed off as a modern sub (no crown guards). Similarly the Panamerica won't be mistaken for an early no-crown-guards GMT, because anyone in the market for one probably knows how big they are.

If Rolex goes and makes a new watch, with no crown guards and the same size case as a Kingston, well that's their own fault. But at the moment, the Kingston/Panamerica does not mimic any Rolex past or present in that it has significantly different case shape/dimensions.


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## alpapilot

I've got a few new ideas about the case back design:

- Turbine fan etching. Yes, I know Breitling already does this but, it doesn't have to be just like theirs.

- An ADI (artificial horizon if you will) complete with flight director.

- Or, a head on view of a 707.


----------



## austinnh

^ I like the ADI idea!


----------



## Tetraflop

Like the ADI idea, too!

Dietmar


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## 66Cooper

I kinda like that ADI as well. Nice to hear a new idea.

My preference on this is like most:

White/cream dial with black printing
black dial with gilt printing 

Silver hands on cream dial
Gilt hands on black dial
Small GMT of course

Bezel with exotic insert. Lumed would be amazing! Classic Pepsi coloring

Date for sure
Roulette wheel with proper LARGE font

Kingston case would be perfect.

Crystal I am not 100% on. I would love a cyclops. Especially if the date wheel comes out right.
Domed for sure. If it has to be sapphire, the Kingstons is amazing. you nailed that watch!

Kingston bracelet would look great on it. Not sure if there is a big reason to not use it being that you have it designed. Maybe I missed something.

Movement i am not too worried either way. I trust whatever you pick will be just fine.

As for the name, Key West is still on my list. Think it has a similar feel to the Kingston and I think it would be very cool seeing both next to each other in the watch box...not that they would stay long.

I can barely stand to take the Kingston off my wrist. I think the Pan-AM would be the one watch to change that


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## nullidentitat

I'm for the ADI caseback as well!


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## 66Cooper

Can someone post a picture of an ADI? I just created this and my guess is its not correct


----------



## JCW1980

brivinci said:


> I kinda like that ADI as well. Nice to hear a new idea.
> 
> My preference on this is like most:
> 
> White/cream dial with black printing
> black dial with gilt printing
> 
> Silver hands on cream dial
> Gilt hands on black dial
> Small GMT of course
> 
> Bezel with exotic insert. Lumed would be amazing! Classic Pepsi coloring
> 
> Date for sure
> Roulette wheel with proper LARGE font
> 
> Kingston case would be perfect.
> 
> Crystal I am not 100% on. I would love a cyclops. Especially if the date wheel comes out right.
> Domed for sure. If it has to be sapphire, the Kingstons is amazing. you nailed that watch!
> 
> Kingston bracelet would look great on it. Not sure if there is a big reason to not use it being that you have it designed. Maybe I missed something.


+1 Couldn't have said it better myself! :-!

I am extremely excited that this project may happen! I was too late in finding MKII to get on the Kingston list (or Project 300 for that matter), and had to go elsewhere for a vintage sub homage. That didn't stop me from reading every thread I could find about both projects. I'm loving everything I'm reading about MKII, and can't wait to get one in my collection! (But I'll happily wait for this watch in order to be a part of the MKII process!)

Bill, I'm definitely on the list for this watch; whatever happens, I know it's going to be a looker!

As far as what I would like on this watch, I agreed so closely with what *brivinci* said above that I felt it appropriate to simply steal the quote! In my opinion, so much time and effort was put into the Kingston, and it's so close to perfect for the "Pan-American" that my vote is to change as little from the Kingston as possible (this is an homage after all). GMT movement, 24-hour bezel, roulette date wheel, and a white dial...I'm all over it!

I mean look how perfect they are... IMO a GMT Master homage is definitely the next logical step for MKII after the Kingston:

(borrowed images)


----------



## Thieuster

Now, that's a nice comparison shot! Thanks for showing!

Menno


----------



## Dragoon

Just saw a Classic Car Auction tonight from California. Steel and Sons or something like that. But, anyhow, they had an original Cobra 427 which was documented as produced for racing. Only 22 were produced for racing according to the commentators. But, this particular one was used in the Elvis Presley Movie "holeshot" and then resold to the original owner. Regardless, it was recently taken down to its frame as being the only usable parts...exactly as you stated. And, the rest of the car was painstakingly (according to the commentators) resotred to perfection with a mercedes silver paint job. It is gorgeous and with a 1985 engine and trannie, I believe.

It was presented at the auction this way and everyone knew it was a "restored" Cobra. The bidding went up to 850,000 USD and will be put back on the auction block later this weekend to attempt a run at a cool $1 million.

As far as the Pan-American....where do I send the money?



Thieuster said:


> (little off topic) Parallel to the wonderful world of watches, in the classic car scene, the same thing happens: remakes/homages/copies of well known cars: Le Mans winners that are rebuilt etc. Often using a few original parts added with new parts, made to make us believe that it's the genuine car... At the other end, there are people trying to recreate a car 'in the spirit' of the original. And like Bill (and we) they draw the line: homage, not a copy. In the classic car scene, these cars are often referred to as 'tribute car'. And that term is widely accepted these days.
> 
> Menno


----------



## alpapilot

Found a picture of a Pan Am 707 cockpit that is currently sitting in a museum in Hartford. Looks like it uses a dual-cue flight director.


----------



## Smeg

JCW1980 said:


> +1 Couldn't have said it better myself! :-!
> 
> I am extremely excited that this project may happen! I was too late in finding MKII to get on the Kingston list (or Project 300 for that matter), and had to go elsewhere for a vintage sub homage. That didn't stop me from reading every thread I could find about both projects. I'm loving everything I'm reading about MKII, and can't wait to get one in my collection! (But I'll happily wait for this watch in order to be a part of the MKII process!)
> 
> Bill, I'm definitely on the list for this watch; whatever happens, I know it's going to be a looker!




You and I both... I nearly up a Kingston on the resale market but felt the asking prices were nuts. I grabbed a Kemmner instead and then missed out on the 10 extra Kingstons Bill posted up last week.

Took my time deciding on the 300 as well and wound up on the waitlist... I'm all over the Panaport Clipper747!! Won't miss this one!


----------



## Freelance

Coming in late to the thread, and forgive me for repeating if I missed something as I skimmed the 7 pages!

I say keep it simple Bill.

Simply take the _existing Kingston_:
1.) Create a White Dial Version
2.) Create a Black Dial Version
3.) Add a Roulette Date Wheel
4.) Shrink the Crown to 6mm
5.) Shoot for duplicating the Bakelite Bezel Insert in Acrylic/Plastic
6.) Call it the PanAmerican (where it says Kingston) -or- Greenwich
--or-- Line1: Greenwich Mean Time
-------Line2: PanAmerican

Perfect IMHO. I would sign up for both a Black Dial and White Dial version.


----------



## a pine tree

Freelance said:


> Coming in late to the thread, and forgive me for repeating if I missed something as I skimmed the 7 pages!
> 
> I say keep it simple Bill.
> 
> Simply take the _existing Kingston_:
> 1.) Create a White Dial Version
> 2.) Create a Black Dial Version
> 3.) Add a Roulette Date Wheel
> 4.) Shrink the Crown to 6mm
> 5.) Shoot for duplicating the Bakelite Bezel Insert in Acrylic/Plastic
> 6.) Call it the PanAmerican (where it says Kingston) -or- Greenwich
> --or-- Line1: Greenwich Mean Time
> -------Line2: PanAmerican
> 
> Perfect IMHO. I would sign up for both a Black Dial and White Dial version.


Holy crap, Bill. If you named it "Greenwich" and had that written on a white dial, I'd PAY you to LET me pay for one. I live in the Village so that name would just make my day, nay, my lifetime. |>|>|>|>


----------



## Thieuster

I came up with 'Key West', but I could certainly live with 'Greenwich' or Greenwich Mean Time'

Menno


----------



## gonzomantis

JCW1980 said:


> (borrowed images)


I agree with keep it simple. I fear that too many unique features being added will cause it to get too "busy" looking. Thank goodness nobody has asked for diamonds on the dial!

In the side-by-side the left image is what would convince me. I don't know the actual color of the hands, but the black outlining on the indices with black hands would unify the look.


----------



## Neily_San

Freelance said:


> Coming in late to the thread, and forgive me for repeating if I missed something as I skimmed the 7 pages!
> 
> I say keep it simple Bill.
> 
> Simply take the _existing Kingston_:
> 1.) Create a White Dial Version
> 2.) Create a Black Dial Version
> 3.) Add a Roulette Date Wheel
> 4.) Shrink the Crown to 6mm
> 5.) Shoot for duplicating the Bakelite Bezel Insert in Acrylic/Plastic
> 6.) Call it the PanAmerican (where it says Kingston) -or- Greenwich
> --or-- Line1: Greenwich Mean Time
> -------Line2: PanAmerican
> 
> Perfect IMHO. I would sign up for both a Black Dial and White Dial version.


+1

Bill,
Please, please, please allow the Plank orders to request the White dial and Pepsi bezel on the watch with the Black dial and Coke bezel in a spares kit.

Neily

ps
Call it the PanAmerican


----------



## Quartersawn

Neily_San said:


> Please, please, please allow the Plank orders to request the White dial and Pepsi bezel on the watch with the Black dial and Coke bezel in a spares kit.


After the wait for the Kingston I can't imagine why anyone would want another limited edition.

Why is there a need for plank orders? Or a spares kit?

Build some watches and put them up for sale. If they sell quickly build some more. If someone wants a white dial and a black dial they can buy 2 watches.

Just my opinion.

EDIT: After coming back and re-reading my post I need to clarify. Neily_San, I was not directing my post at you, just the idea of a limited edition in general. Everyone seems to think that this watch is a limited edition and I don't see the need for it.


----------



## JCW1980

Forgot to mention in my post above. I like the names:

Pan-American
Intercontinental
Greenwich
I think if the dial wording followed suit based on the Kingston design, it would look great:

MIIK
Auto-Winding

Pan-American
GMT​


----------



## JCW1980

Saxon007 said:


> After the wait for the Kingston I can't imagine why anyone would want another limited edition.


I missed out on Kingston, so I'm cool with the process and the wait (from what I've read, I'd be a fool not to expect some frustration along the way too).

Obviously, if this ends up being a LE project, I hope it goes faster than Kingston, and that's why my vote is to use as much from the Kingston as possible (case, bracelet, basic dial design...). Hopefully Bill can cut the wait in half for the Pan-American.

I'm also one of those people who enjoys the research and the wait. Pleasure delayer.


----------



## austinnh

I see no reason for this to be an LE, from a customer's prospective.

All Bill's watches are produced in such small numbers, they're like LEs.


----------



## Neily_San

Saxon007 said:


> After the wait for the Kingston I can't imagine why anyone would want another limited edition.
> 
> Why is there a need for plank orders? Or a spares kit?
> 
> Build some watches and put them up for sale. If they sell quickly build some more. If someone wants a white dial and a black dial they can buy 2 watches.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> EDIT: After coming back and re-reading my post I need to clarify. Neily_San, I was not directing my post at you, just the idea of a limited edition in general. Everyone seems to think that this watch is a limited edition and I don't see the need for it.


Apologies,
I didn't mean to set the hares running. Perhaps it was a careless use of the word Plank ? I would be more than happy if the PanAmerican was not a LE. I patiently, and quietly, waited over 2 years for my Kingston. However I would be more than supportive of Bill were he to simply build the watch he wishes to create and put it on GO. I would be one of the first to reach for my credit card. I simply wanted Bill to help relieve my indecision by allowing me to purchase an additional dial / bezel combo.

Of course, whatever the dial colour, bezel colour, crown size, cyclops decision ... or name ... I know it will be of the very highest quality and I am going to buy it anyway.

:-D

Neily


----------



## TheDude

Trust me, there are plenty of folks reaching for their wallets on this one. 

I tried to force Bill to take a deposit back at the April NYC gtg and he refused. He did say l was #2 in line though...


----------



## Quartersawn

Neily_San said:


> Apologies,
> I didn't mean to set the hares running.


Not your fault at all, it was all me.

In the future I will attempt to be more articulate and less of a bonehead when I post.


----------



## ljb187

I'm involved in the Project 300 project but wonder if simply calling this watch the "MKII 707" might work. The nomenclature for the customer numbers and variants of this airplane was 707-XXX so Pan Am dials could read 707-001, 707-002, 707-003...which would be a nod to both the plane and watch's limited edition run. I imagine that 707-120 would be especially desirable since that was Pan Am's original launch order number. Fans of American (707-123), TWA (707-131), Qantus (707-138, first international order) or other airlines could request the 707 customer numbers issued to their favorite companies.


----------



## Arthur

ljb187 said:


> I'm involved in the Project 300 project but wonder if simply calling this watch the "MKII 707" might work. The nomenclature for the customer numbers and variants of this airplane was 707-XXX so Pan Am dials could read 707-001, 707-002, 707-003...which would be a nod to both the plane and watch's limited edition run. I imagine that 707-120 would be especially desirable since that was Pan Am's original launch order number. Fans of American (707-123), TWA (707-131), Qantus (707-138, first international order) or other airlines could request the 707 customer numbers issued to their favorite companies.


Possibly if you used this nomenclature to designate caseback numbers, it would be OK, but idf you did this on the dial, it would require every dial to be set up differently when printed. I would bet that the dial maker would be either very reluctant to do this, or price the dials way above the regular price..

Personally, I would be very happy with either "Key West" or Pan American as the name. I particularly like the idea that was rendered above.

MKII 
Auto Winding

Pan American 
GMT


----------



## zivadavis

i have read this thread from first post to the last one before my post......twce.....lots of great ideas

when mr yao decides on the final design(s) i will certainly be in line with $ in hand...


----------



## Yao

Arthur said:


> Possibly if you used this nomenclature to designate caseback numbers, it would be OK, but idf you did this on the dial, it would require every dial to be set up differently when printed. I would bet that the dial maker would be either very reluctant to do this, or price the dials way above the regular price..
> 
> Personally, I would be very happy with either "Key West" or Pan American as the name. I particularly like the idea that was rendered above.
> 
> MKII
> Auto Winding
> 
> Pan American
> GMT


The other issue with that is that on a good day the dial printer has a 20% scrap rate....so you can see how hard it would be to do a serial numbered dial.

I'd love to learn how to pad print here in my shop......but oh god would that be one deep rabbit hole! Perhaps when I have some free time


----------



## Watchamacallit

Arthur said:


> Auto Winding


Small niggle because this crops up again and again, even on my Kingston.  _Miele_ use this term for the retractable cord in their vacuum cleaners. Teutonic translator, I guess. For watches, I think there isn't really anything wrong with the established terms (self-winding, automatic).

_The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter-it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning._ -Mark Twain


----------



## enkidu

Yao said:


> The other issue with that is that on a good day the dial printer has a 20% scrap rate....so you can see how hard it would be to do a serial numbered dial.
> 
> I'd love to learn how to pad print here in my shop......but oh god would that be one deep rabbit hole! Perhaps when I have some free time


An alternative would be to get the dials printed without the S/N and etch the S/N with a laser (perhaps the entire "n of m" text). I think that modern laser rigs would have the required resolution and power control; you'd have to make a dial to hold the dial consistently.


----------



## TheDude

I would never want a dial with a SN.


----------



## enkidu

TheDude said:


> I would never want a dial with a SN.


Now that I think about it, I agree with you. I guess I got caught up in solving the technical problem instead of asking if the problem was the right one to solve.


----------



## TheDude

I presume that we are talking about having the serial on the case and the dial? 

This would keep people from trying to sell frankenwatches, but this isn't a Rolex, and the chance of one of these being reconstituted from parts is nil. 

The current Rolex practice of engraving the SN on the rehaut makes it easy to view it, while at the same time making it permanent and case-specific.


----------



## Cowbiker

OT: Let's face it, the majority of the modern details are all anti-counterfiting efforts that attempt to frustrate counterfitters. Kuddos to Roli for being popular enough to have such a problem, but seriously, I liken them to the authentic sports merchandise with tags and hologram stickers; seeing people out in public with the stickers on their team gear and tags as if to say 'That's right, it's the real thing.' Seriously? Who cares? You're a fan of your team and so is the person that had sense enough to take the tags off. Is the person with tags a better fan?

In any event, I liken ANY and ALL efforts to pay tribute to such modern practices, especially on a historically shaped case, as inappropriate at best.

Rock your holograms and tags if it makes you feel better, but think twice before modernizing this project with techniques and technologies as it will not be well recieved. The guys wearing tags and hologram sports gear tend to be wearing G's or not wearing watches at all.


----------



## ljb187

I fear I've gotten everybody off track a little! I was suggesting calling the watch the MK ll 707 and then referencing the watch's limited edition number on the dial since such nomenclature also suggests the often famous order numbers and variants that Boeing delivered to their customers. However, as Author suggested and Bill confirmed, such an idea, whatever its merits, would not be technically feasible. I do thank everybody for their insights into watchmaking and for the very worthy expansion of what was a shot-in-the-dark effort by me at best.

In hindsight, would using 707-XXX as a serial number engraved on the caseback work (for the reasons I've already stated) or is the whole thought just too darn gimmicky?

P.S. As a member of the Project 300 group I wouldn't mind seeing this watch called the Key West then having the 300 called something like the Portsmouth. I'm a fan a traditions and think it would be a cool to follow the precedent set by the Kingston and begin naming future MK ll special projects after cities that have ties to the watch (sort of how the US used to name battleships after states - USS Missouri, et al.).


----------



## Arthur

ljb187 said:


> I fear I've gotten everybody off track a little! I was suggesting calling the watch the MK ll 707 and then referencing the watch's limited edition number on the dial since such nomenclature also suggests the often famous order numbers and variants that Boeing delivered to their customers. However, as Author suggested and Bill confirmed, such an idea, whatever its merits, would not be technically feasible. I do thank everybody for their insights into watchmaking and for the very worthy expansion of what was a shot-in-the-dark effort by me at best.
> 
> In hindsight, would using 707-XXX as a serial number engraved on the caseback work (for the reasons I've already stated) or is the whole thought just too darn gimmicky?
> 
> P.S. As a member of the Project 300 group I wouldn't mind seeing this watch called the Key West then having the 300 called something like the Portsmouth. I'm a fan a traditions and think it would be a cool to follow the precedent set by the Kingston and begin naming future MK ll special projects after cities that have ties to the watch (sort of how the US used to name battleships after states - USS Missouri, et al.).


I don't see where it would be a real problem to use 707 as a permanent and follow with 0001,0002,etc. on to the last number produced (on the caseback)., After all the numbers are sequential on all casebacks that are numbered. Probably doesn't make any difference what is in front or behind the numbers. Watch companies engrave the serial number as well as lots of other stuff on casebacks .
Arthur


----------



## sschum

If I recall, Bill has his own numbering system for serial numbers, which uses his age at the beginning of the project for the initial number.


----------



## JamesJackson

These are the must for me:
Black dial...gilt lettering...gilt hands
Roulette date wheel (Red Writing)
An Acrylic (Pepsi) bezel insert (with lumed numbers)
Crystal/cyclops:......Sapphire With a Cyclops
Some form of "Pan Am" reference on the case back.


----------



## Chromejob

I will have to review the discussions that I've missed out on ... I read a number of the threads with period images of the original, and the idea of a repro that DOESN'T look like any later or contemporary versions would hit my sweet spot.

White dial is eye catching and sets it apart from all the black dial watches in our collections. Was it established by Stefano or anyone else whether the white dial models were for the PanAm execs, and pilots got black-dial watches?

Name: *Key West* is still my favorite. The "K" name will be a worthy successor to the wonderful Kingston project.

There are great trademark lawyers in my firm, one floor up, I can go enlist research help about using the logo. Wasn't the Super Connie Pan Am's first aircraft, and a signature airframe for the airline? I know many older pilots I've flown with all love the shape and design of the Super Connie ... still one of the fastest prop-driven airframes ever made, and a gorgeous shape ... hardly a straight line on it. I've had the pleasure of seeing some up close on the ground, and in the air, and believe me ... it's a sight to see. I'd put that on the caseback if we can.

BTW, for those favoring the name "Zulu," consider that IIRC "Z" was referred to in the NATO phonetic alphabet as "Zebra," not "Zulu" until 1956. The watch being repro'ed here was introduced in 1955, wasn't it: :think:


----------



## alpapilot

Chromejob said:


> Wasn't the Super Connie Pan Am's first aircraft, and a signature airframe for the airline?


Nope. The airline had been in business for twenty years before the Constellation came out. PanAm started out like most airlines carrying the mail. They used Fokkers at first then, they started using Sikorsky flying boats of various types.

Although PanAm had some Connies, TWA is most associated with them. Of course, just about every major airline used them at some point.


----------



## Thieuster

The Dutch horlogeforum.nl has a tradition of producing (having produced) a Limited Edition every year. This year, it's a Steinhart GMT in PanAm disguise. It's not what I'm after, therefore I didn't participate in buying this year's LE. Yesterday, the forum owners presented and distributed the LE during a forum GTG in Rotterdam. Already, there's a discussion about Steinhart's QC: scratches on the inlay and bracelet screws. But that's not my point here. What I would like to share is the number of pictures taken of this watch. This gives you a pretty good impression of a MKII PanAm bearing in mind Bill's level of quality etc.

One of the LE's owners is dropping by later this evening: he'll be selling me his 6105-8000 and he'll be wearing his Steinhart. I'll put my Kingston next to it and take a few pics.

For those of you who can't wait: here's the link. I'm sure you'll be unable to read the text, but the pics are pretty clear! Horlogeforum.nl, hèt forum voor de liefhebber van horloges. :: Algemene Horlogepraat :: De Steinhart Limited Edition!

Menno


----------



## Fullers1845

Thieuster said:


> The Dutch horlogeforum.nl has a tradition of producing (having produced) a Limited Edition every year. This year, it's a Steinhart GMT in PanAm disguise. It's not what I'm after, therefore I didn't participate in buying this year's LE. Yesterday, the forum owners presented and distributed the LE during a forum GTG in Rotterdam. Already, there's a discussion about Steinhart's QC: scratches on the inlay and bracelet screws. But that's not my point here. What I would like to share is the number of pictures taken of this watch. This gives you a pretty good impression of a MKII PanAm bearing in mind Bill's level of quality etc.
> 
> One of the LE's owners is dropping by later this evening: he'll be selling me his 6105-8000 and he'll be wearing his Steinhart. I'll put my Kingston next to it and take a few pics.
> 
> For those of you who can't wait: here's the link. I'm sure you'll be unable to read the text, but the pics are pretty clear! Horlogeforum.nl, hèt forum voor de liefhebber van horloges. :: Algemene Horlogepraat :: De Steinhart Limited Edition!
> 
> Menno


Looks nice! Looking forward to your comparison shots with the Kingston.


----------



## Thieuster

I didn't have time to upload pics yet. But there's already a nice story to add. My friend T. arrived at my house with a bunch of watches, including the Steinhart. A nice watch, sure enough. A Limited Edition of 30 watches, 3 were built with plexi (like my friend's), the other 27 have a sapphire crystal. I showed my Kingston, told him about Bill's intention to build a Pan-Am version. To cut a long story short: after returning home, my friend T. put his one day old Steinhart up for sale... and he's now in line for a MKII... (Just had a look, he already sold the Steinhart).

Without doubt, this has all to do with the look, feel and build quality of the Kingston. 

Menno


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Wow! Thanks, Menno, for the link. Great pictures-This is very much what I would like to see in Bill's version. I'd like to see gilt hands - Bills hands are so much better looking in terms of proportions and "grace" or "elegance" - I just don't know quite how to express it, but he gets them "right". The right ratio of lumed area to the balance, right thickness...just having trouble trying to explain it. I am not too keen on that case-back design. Someone suggested using a Super Connie logo on the back, surely the most beautiful aircraft ever built (And I had the beloved and treasured experience of many long trips with them as a boy.)

I'd suggest using the outlined Boeing 314 (I think) - Boeing Company's long range Clipper Seaplane series of the 30's and 40's. Google Pacific Clipper for a hell of a true story at the beginning of WWII.

Thanks again! Cheers!


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: Is the Pan Am dead?*

Like your suggestions Menno- Thanks. Have some minor differences to suggest. I'm not keen on the PanAm World logo for the case-back. I'd like to see a perspective view of a Boeing Clipper, the large seaplanes PanAm had in service at the outset of WWII. I like your suggestion for the name, but as an alternative also like "WorldPort" but not to appear on the dial so that it will not become too-cluttered with ratings, Mark II logo, etc. The watch name could be on the back and also a serialized ### of ### (Like 007 of 321).

But Thanks again, I am already passing on LRRP GMT in order to get in line for this. It's going to be Great!


----------



## sunster

Wow indeed...no doubt Bill's quality workmanship might have something to do with him joining the list although I can't help thinking he's a little premature selling his Pan Am considering it could take a few years for Bill to produce his own version...


----------



## Thieuster

I'm waiting for my friend's pics. My camera's battery was dead last night. Luckily he has a good camera. (And that also helped selling his Steinhart). Again, not a Steinhart bashing post here. But there's a great difference when it comes to Bill's approach of tribute watches and Steinhart's. The S. is pretty 'crudely' built and it's a little too large, making it a homage watch from 20 yards distance, if you get my drift! The plexi looks nice and it adds a nice hue to the dial's look. The pre-aged markers and hands is not my cup of tea! Combined with the (too) large case, it again shows that it's not the real deal. The contour lines around the markers are black, not gilted. I'm glad that Bill for the Kingston opted for the gilt lines around the markers and the modern looking lumen!

On a more personal note, I think that I would prefer a black dial. Not because it's nicer, it's because my wife looked at the collection on the table, pointed towards the Steinhart and said: "Oh, I like that! if it was smaller, like your Kingston I would certainly wear it..."

Menno


----------



## sunster

Fair stab at minimal costs on their part. Steinhart have done well out of their parts- one Ocean case, bracelet and bezel....all they do is come up with dial and hands and bezel insert. Hence they're quick and efficient ...not too dis-similar to their cars and use of the parts bin


----------



## Smeg

Nice to see this topic heating up again! I'm exited about this project and holding off on any other watch purchases until I know I have my place in line on this one 7


----------



## Chromejob

I'm the proud owner of a Steinhart Ocean Black DLC (with Omega SM300 hands), so I'm not going to deny that his LE for that forum is lovely. But I also don't quite fancy the SuperLuminova "Vintage" color. Also ... the bezel looks unchanged from the very modern base model. So ... a nice little LE, special case back, dial, hands, and voila an affordable "forum special." 

What I believe Bill does with his regular watches, and these forum projects, is quite a bit more involved and distinguished. I'd wanted to get a LRRP with MilSub hands, combo bezel and black date wheel (someone on the forum ordered almost exactly what I wanted, but in DLC, a real treasure), but now with this being discussed, there's only one GMT watch I'm shooting for and that's the "Key West"/"Pan AM" repro.


----------



## Arthur

sunster said:


> Fair stab at minimal costs on their part. Steinhart have done well out of their parts- one Ocean case, bracelet and bezel....all they do is come up with dial and hands and bezel insert. Hence they're quick and efficient ...not too dis-similar to their cars and use of the parts bin


I'm not knocking Steinhart, they make a pretty fair watch for the money. I had an Ocean GMT several years ago, it was the smaller size, 39 or 40 mm. i didn't keep it long, but I thought it was OK. It had a 2893-2 movement which isn't a real cheap movement. As far as the limited edition Steinhart, it's certainly not a homage to the 6542. As it has crown guards, large pointer on the GMT hand, no cyclops, and an aluminum bezel insert. More like a 1675 than a 6542.


----------



## Axelay2003

Smeg said:


> Nice to see this topic heating up again! I'm exited about this project and holding off on any other watch purchases until I know I have my place in line on this one 7


This is very exciting!


----------



## ljb187

For the case back, how about a engraved (or relief) 3/4 profile of a 707? Such an image would be both simple and evocative. Perhaps the name of the watch or its serial number could go on the fuselage (where Boeing 707 is in the picture)...I've got to learn Photoshop.


----------



## Thieuster

Something like this? (Pic from WantToBuyAWatch LA)


----------



## ljb187

Thieuster said:


> Something like this?


Great find! I pictured it a little bigger and with a little more detail but yes, right on the money - and I could see your suggested name in right about the same place...You could even set it up like an old post card:









Using a similar Jet Age font, MK II's logo (maybe even a bit of a stylized version) could sit where "Continental" is, the name of the watch in the "Golden Jet" slot and perhaps the serial number next to that. If you wanted to be cheeky and could engrave letters small enough, you could add a few MK II related cities below. Some combinations of : Wayne - Grenchen - Breda - Kingston - Key West (if Key West doesn't get chosen for the actual name). Even just "Wayne - Key West" would do nicely.


----------



## Thieuster

I owned a 1969 Glycine Airman STT Pumpkin a few years back. I sold the watch without having taken a pic of the backside. Luckily, I found a pic of an SST's back side on the 'net.

One thing puzzles me, though:


> Wayne - Grenchen - Breda - Kingston - Key West


 How did you come up with 'Breda'? I know 'Breda' as a small town in the South of The Netherlands, near the Belgian border. An old town, famous for it's beautiful Market Square and our Royal Dutch Military Academy. The town centre is loaded with pubs and bars. Nice place to be. Even better when it's Mardigrass (Called 'Carnaval' overhere).

Menno


----------



## ljb187

Thieuster said:


> I owned a 1969 Glycine Airman STT Pumpkin a few years back. I sold the watch without having taken a pic of the backside. Luckily, I found a pic of an SST's back side on the 'net.
> 
> One thing puzzles me, though: How did you come up with 'Breda'? I know 'Breda' as a small town in the South of The Netherlands, near the Belgian border. An old town, famous for it's beautiful Market Square and our Royal Dutch Military Academy. The town centre is loaded with pubs and bars. Nice place to be. Even better when it's Mardigrass (Called 'Carnaval' overhere).
> 
> Menno


From this: http://www.watchuseek.com/site/privacy.htm

Since this watch is being formed on WUS, I thought it might be appropriate to include Watchuseek's place of business. Also, along with Grenchen it adds an extra bit of international flair to a list that potentially includes the fine cities of Wayne, PA and Key West, FL.


----------



## Thieuster

:-! It's all clear to me now! Thanks!

Menno


----------



## MHe225

ljb187 said:


> For the case back, how about a engraved (or relief) 3/4 profile of a 707? Such an image would be both simple and evocative. Perhaps the name of the watch or its serial number could go on the fuselage (where Boeing 707 is in the picture)...I've got to learn Photoshop.
> 
> View attachment 570329


Brilliant suggestion ........ https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/how-would-you-like-panam-look-605034.html#post4422865 ;-)

RonB


----------



## pl39g

Is there a wait list on this watch? I would like to sign up for it if so.


----------



## JCW1980

pl39g said:


> Is there a wait list on this watch? I would like to sign up for it if so.


Not yet. I think Bill's trying to feel out the potential popularity of this project as well as what design details those of us who are interested would like to see in the watch.

So, long story short, you've come along just in time: early enough to get on the list when it _does_ come out! :-!


----------



## Muslickz

JCW1980 said:


> Not yet. I think Bill's trying to feel out the potential popularity of this project as well as what design details those of us who are interested would like to see in the watch.
> 
> So, long story short, you've come along just in time: early enough to get on the list when it _does_ come out! :-!


you sold me put my name on that list 

-M


----------



## ljb187

MHe225 said:


> Brilliant suggestion ........ https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/how-would-you-like-panam-look-605034.html#post4422865 ;-)
> 
> RonB


I missed that! If it makes a difference, my plane is pointing in the other direction!


----------



## Freelance

Another name popped into my head based on PAN AM history.

The Pan Am frequent flyer club was called "New Horizons Club".

I threw out Greenwich before, but you could also build off the of Pan Am Club name:
MKII - Horizon(s)
MKII - New Horizons
MKII - Horizon GMT

Just a random thought.


----------



## ljb187

Freelance said:


> Another name popped into my head based on PAN AM history.
> 
> The Pan Am frequent flyer club was called "New Horizons Club".
> 
> I threw out Greenwich before, but you could also build off the of Pan Am Club name:
> MKII - Horizon(s)
> MKII - New Horizons
> MKII - Horizon GMT
> 
> Just a random thought.


I kinda like Horizon. The MKII Horizon - it fits!


----------



## austinnh

ljb187 said:


> I kinda like Horizon. The MKII Horizon - it fits!


Agreed! It would be especially fitting with the ADI caseback.


----------



## kerosene

ljb187 said:


> I kinda like Horizon. The MKII Horizon - it fits!


And if someone makes a counterfeit, it will be an Artificial Horizon.

Sorry.


----------



## Reginald432

Yeah,

"Zulu Master" is a little too ... slave trady? Kind of like when German's talk about a "Final Solution" to the European Dept crisis.

What about "Greenwich"?

BTW thanks for "Coke vs Pepsi" schooling.


----------



## Malyel

Here would be two mocked up suggestions... ;-)


----------



## Arthur

Malyel said:


> Here would be two mocked up suggestions... ;-)


These look really nice.Could you do one with a white dial and gilt hands/minute track, just to let us see what it would look like. Also could you reduce the size of the crown. I don't think the original 6542's had a crown over 6mm. Thanks very much. I have always enjoyed your mockups.
Happy holidays
Arthur


----------



## cpotters

Absolutely. I'd say that's about right. I'll take one of each, please.


----------



## pl39g

I like the black dial version better. Both are great looking.


----------



## Malyel

Arthur said:


> These look really nice.Could you do one with a white dial and gilt hands/minute track, just to let us see what it would look like. Also could you reduce the size of the crown. I don't think the original 6542's had a crown over 6mm. Thanks very much. I have always enjoyed your mockups.
> Happy holidays
> Arthur


I tried to do a version for you with the gilt on the white but it gets lost on the mockups. There is not enough contrast between the gold and white so it just kinda blends in together.

I did this version with a smaller crown and a dark navy bezel.


----------



## Axelay2003

Malyel said:


> I tried to do a version for you with the gilt on the white but it gets lost on the mockups. There is not enough contrast between the gold and white so it just kinda blends in together.
> 
> I did this version with a smaller crown and a dark navy bezel.


Very nice! I like the smaller crown, but would stick to the PEPSI bezel as previously posted.

Gerald


----------



## Malyel

Axelay2003 said:


> Very nice! I like the smaller crown, but would stick to the PEPSI bezel as previously posted.
> 
> Gerald


Thanks.  The pepsi bezel does look best. :-!


----------



## MHe225

Axelay2003 said:


> Very nice! I like the smaller crown, but would stick to the PEPSI bezel as previously posted.


+1

Smaller crown looks more balanced and the Pepsi bezel is way nicer. I still prefer the white dial and am not too hot on the Clipper name - sounds too much like Flipper which, on the other hand, could be very appropriate (if the Kingston is an indication .... ;-)). Kidding aside, I think we've seen better naming suggestions.

Very nice mock-ups |> Thank you so much, Malyel, for visualizing what so many of us have been babbling about.

RonB

PS - maybe you can do a Christmas version just for kicks: red, green and gilt - eh, gold.


----------



## Malyel

MHe225 said:


> PS - maybe you can do a Christmas version just for kicks: red, green and gilt - eh, gold.


Here you go Ron, just for laughs here is your Christmas themed MKii Rudolph on a matching Nato no less. :-d Although it comes off a cross between Gucci and 80's Tag Heuer.:rodekaart


----------



## Thieuster

Now, without the Rudolph name (giveaway), this drawing - with the right text(...) added- would certainly rattle some chains on forums, to put it mildly! :-!:-!:-! Great drawing, great sense of humour!

Menno


----------



## White Tuna

Malyel said:


> Here would be two mocked up suggestions... ;-)


I love this. As sugested I would love to see it with gilt. Also instead of black for the minutes and the edges on the lume could you do it in a navy blue as dark as the darkest navy on the bezel?

And if that is not pushy enough a rootbeer dial with gilt would be helpful.

I appreciate your work. thank you for what you have already done.


----------



## rmasso

Malyel said:


> Here you go Ron, just for laughs here is your Christmas themed MKii Rudolph on a matching Nato no less. :-d Although it comes off a cross between Gucci and 80's Tag Heuer.:rodekaart


Now that's funny. Interesting looking too.
Rich


----------



## rmasso

Malyel said:


> Here would be two mocked up suggestions... ;-)


The white one looks real nice, I prefer black dial though, if that black dial could be gilt with the gold more muted, as on the Kingston, then I'm in. I think you nailed the blue and red color however, looks good. I also like the bubble on the date.

Rich


----------



## Smeg

Great mock-ups, thanks! Put me down for 2 Rudolphs!

I'm still 'meh' on Clipper... not a deal breaker but still not my favourite. Great connection to PanAm for sure but lacks that je ne sais quoi for me.


----------



## bompi

Nice mockups !! The cyclops is definitively a must-have !


----------



## Malyel

White Tuna said:


> And if that is not pushy enough a rootbeer dial with gilt would be helpful. I appreciate your work. thank you for what you have already done.


Here would be my take on a root beer inspired Pan Am. ;-)


----------



## tako_watch

|> on the mock-ups....a one-off Rudy would be cool!


----------



## Malyel

And a black version. ;-)


----------



## STEELINOX

Malyel said:


> Here would be two mocked up suggestions... ;-)


These are nice !

1. Lose the cyclops
2. White dial
3. Blueberry insert
4. Chng name !

Names:

1. RENO
2. MERIDIAN
3. TALON
4. RAPTOR
5. MUSTANG

[THINKING]...


----------



## MHe225

Malyel said:


> Here you go Ron, just for laughs here is your Christmas themed MKii Rudolph on a matching Nato no less. :-d


Thank you sir, you have a great sense of humor and you upped me in the funny-department. I got a good laugh out of it

RonB


----------



## Malyel

MHe225 said:


> Thank you sir, you have a great sense of humor and you upped me in the funny-department. I got a good laugh out of it
> 
> RonB


Thanks Ron, Merry Christmas! :-!


----------



## Malyel

STEELINOX said:


> These are nice !
> 
> 1. Lose the cyclops
> 2. White dial
> 3. Blueberry insert
> 4. Chng name !
> 
> Names:
> 
> 1. RENO
> 2. MERIDIAN
> 3. TALON
> 4. RAPTOR
> 5. MUSTANG
> 
> [THINKING]...


Thanks. Here it is without the cyclops, different name, and blueberry insert (I think that's what you meant) and the minute track is navy instead of black.


----------



## STEELINOX

Malyel said:


> Thanks. Here it is without the cyclops, different name, and blueberry insert (I think that's what you meant) and the minute track is navy instead of black.


Top Marks !!!

Please change "Meridian" : all caps = "MERIDIAN"

The insert, "bezel insert" maybe culd be a little lighter blue...

Lastly, please move the date aperture towards center about 3mm...

Beautiful

[maybe a red second hand !]


----------



## Malyel

STEELINOX said:


> Top Marks !!!
> 
> Please change "Meridian" : all caps = "MERIDIAN"
> 
> The insert, "bezel insert" maybe culd be a little lighter blue...
> 
> Lastly, please move the date aperture towards center about 3mm...
> 
> Beautiful
> 
> [maybe a red second hand !]


----------



## White Tuna

*Great work







!!!!

Merry Christmas everybody!*
[/COLOR][/B]


----------



## gonzomantis

Malyel said:


> Here would be two mocked up suggestions... ;-)


I'd like to see this one, but with black hour, minute and second hands. I think it would lend some continuity between the indices as well has make it more legible.


----------



## JCW1980

Malyel said:


> Here would be two mocked up suggestions... ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Very Very nice Malyel, thanks for knocking these up!! Sign me up for this one! That would look excellent next to the Kingston in my (future) collection!


----------



## White Tuna

Bumping for all the rocking work!


----------



## RussF

Bill as you can clearly see, there is A LOT of interest in this watch. Don't get sidetracked by everyone's wishlist. Just make the watch and get it out on the market. _*If you make it...they will buy!!! *_Anyone else agree???


----------



## STEELINOX

Malyel said:


>


Make sure there are "lug holes" and itsa winner !!!


----------



## Neily_San

RussF said:


> Bill as you can clearly see, there is A LOT of interest in this watch. Don't get sidetracked by everyone's wishlist. Just make the watch and get it out on the market. _*If you make it...they will buy!!! *_Anyone else agree???


Agreed.

:-D

Neily


----------



## White Tuna

RussF said:


> Bill as you can clearly see, there is A LOT of interest in this watch. Don't get sidetracked by everyone's wishlist. Just make the watch and get it out on the market. _*If you make it...they will buy!!! *_Anyone else agree???


----------



## BigHaole

I would love to see this watch available with a set of interchangeable bezel inserts. I think that would be more useful to the buyer than multiple dials, since the bezel inserts can be changed out easily. I'd love a set of coke, pepsi, black and that dark blue.


----------



## Smeg

BigHaole said:


> I would love to see this watch available with a set of interchangeable bezel inserts. I think that would be more useful to the buyer than multiple dials, since the bezel inserts can be changed out easily. I'd love a set of coke, pepsi, black and that dark blue.


+ 1!

White's my favourite but I'm ok with either a white or black dial. Multiple inserts would be awesome!


----------



## Cowbiker

Malyel said:


> Here would be my take on a root beer inspired Pan Am. ;-)


While outside project parameters, must say, truly a classy application of the rootbeer, Roli should do it!

Nice work.


----------



## Golden Circle

Malyel, nice work on the mock-ups.


MERIDIAN in caps is my pick of the names so far. Clipper is a name I'd call a horse.


The problem that I see with white dials is that they look fantastic in the glossy brochures but they somehow fail to deliver the goods when on a wrist. There are a couple of white dialed watches getting around my work place and they just somehow lack a certain "gravitas".
The white dial is the watch you wear occasionally for a giggle and/or when you want a little variety. Then you realize it was just for fun and go back to the dark shades.


----------



## powerband

Malyel said:


> Here would be my take on a root beer inspired Pan Am. ;-)


At first I would imagine the color scheme may be a short affair, but I keep thinking that it would be just as interesting and attractive in 10 years, in 20 years... even in 3 or 4 decades. Will be a classic, this root beer theme.

I'd hit it. Where do I sign up?


----------



## Malyel

White Tuna said:


> Bumping for all the rocking work!


Thanks!


----------



## Malyel

Cowbiker said:


> While outside project parameters, must say, truly a classy application of the rootbeer, Roli should do it!
> 
> Nice work.


Thanks Cowbiker!


----------



## Malyel

Golden Circle said:


> Malyel, nice work on the mock-ups


Thanks!


----------



## Malyel

powerband said:


> At first I would imagine the color scheme may be a short affair, but I keep thinking that it would be just as interesting and attractive in 10 years, in 20 years... even in 3 or 4 decades. Will be a classic, this root beer theme.
> 
> I'd hit it. Where do I sign up?


Thanks Johnny!


----------



## Thieuster

I think this one (like most others you've drawn for us) look wonderful. Thank you for you efforts! The rootbeer version looks great! I own the perfect natostrap already! (chocolate brown from ebay shop 'watchbarn') The brown strap complements the rootbeer color perfectly, I think.

Menno


----------



## Malyel

Thieuster said:


> I think this one (like most others you've drawn for us) look wonderful. Thank you for you efforts! The rootbeer version looks great! I own the perfect natostrap already! (chocolate brown from ebay shop 'watchbarn') The brown strap complements the rootbeer color perfectly, I think.
> 
> Menno


Thanks Menno.


----------



## tako_watch

Really good to see the mocks up and still like the white dial with coke bezel...But the RootBeer. It is unique and beautiful!!!


----------



## Malyel

Here is the white with black hands, C3 lume, navy blue minute track, small crown, on a nato. :-!


----------



## Malyel

tako_watch said:


> Really good to see the mocks up and still like the white dial with coke bezel...But the RootBeer. It is unique and beautiful!!!


Thanks!


----------



## Golden Circle

Much better proportions with the small crown.


----------



## Malyel

:think:


----------



## STEELINOX

Golden Circle said:


> Malyel, nice work on the mock-ups.
> 
> MERIDIAN in caps is my pick of the names so far. Clipper is a name I'd call a horse.
> 
> The problem that I see with white dials is that they look fantastic in the glossy brochures but they somehow fail to deliver the goods when on a wrist. There are a couple of white dialed watches getting around my work place and they just somehow lack a certain "gravitas".
> The white dial is the watch you wear occasionally for a giggle and/or when you want a little variety. Then you realize it was just for fun and go back to the dark shades.


"*MK II, MERIDIAN*," yes, that sounds about right !

[Thats my contribution !]


----------



## Golden Circle

Malyel, on your variant with the black/gold dial and pepsi bezel how about a sub-variant bezel with red that isn't quite so red and/or a blue that isn't quite so blue?


----------



## AntFarm

I need to get in on this... My dad worked for Pan-Am as a Flight Engineer... Traveled the world with him when I was small... The one thing I see that is a bit bothersome is that the colors of Pan Am are sky blue and white... Maybe I missed a post or something but I am wondering why these colors would not be incorporated into the design...And if the logo could be put on the case back somehow... that would be awesome. However, that being said, I am in with what ever is decided. So add me to the list when it is created... Thanks for listening/reading


----------



## STEELINOX

AntFarm said:


> I need to get in on this... My dad worked for Pan-Am as a Flight Engineer... Traveled the world with him when I was small... The one thing I see that is a bit bothersome is that the colors of Pan Am are sky blue and white... Maybe I missed a post or something but I am wondering why these colors would not be incorporated into the design...And if the logo could be put on the case back somehow... that would be awesome. However, that being said, I am in with what ever is decided. So add me to the list when it is created... Thanks for listening/reading


Totally agree !

The dial shuld be white and the bezel insert all blue berry blue or *PAN AM blue !*


----------



## Malyel

AntFarm said:


> Maybe I missed a post or something but I am wondering why these colors would not be incorporated into the design...And if the logo could be put on the case back somehow... that would be awesome.


The watch is not an homage to the airline, rather it's an homage to the classic GMT-Master ref. 6542 that was worn by Pan Am pilots. You can't put a Pan Am logo on the case back because the Pan Am logo is still trademarked. ;-)


----------



## AntFarm

Malyel said:


> The watch is not an homage to the airline, rather it's an homage to the classic GMT-Master ref. 6542 that was worn by Pan Am pilots. You can't put a Pan Am logo on the case back because the Pan Am logo is still trademarked. ;-)


I figured so much about the logo... Thanks also for clearing up my confusion about the watch itself... Still in because all the designs look great.


----------



## Rusty_Shakleford

This entire thread has been a pleasure to read. Thanks everyone and I am very much looking forward to the further development and release of the PanAm...

RS


----------



## Axelay2003

MALYEL,

The Rootbeer mock-up looks classy.

The black and white dials with coke bezels(blue/red) look great.

*Would we be able to see a Rootbeer bezel with white dial mock-up?
*
I agree up to this point that MERIDIAN is a fitting name.

I will definately purchase at least one of these styles if and when they do come out.

Gerald


----------



## Malyel

Axelay2003 said:


> MALYEL,
> 
> The Rootbeer mock-up looks classy.
> 
> The black and white dials with coke bezels(blue/red) look great.
> 
> *Would we be able to see a Rootbeer bezel with white dial mock-up?
> *
> I agree up to this point that MERIDIAN is a fitting name.
> 
> I will definately purchase at least one of these styles if and when they do come out.
> 
> Gerald


Thanks, here you go.


----------



## Malyel

Maybe a lumed dial? :think: Kind of a mixture of vintage Rolex with a twist of vintage Heuer thrown in. ;-)


----------



## Smeg

Malyel said:


> Maybe a lumed dial? :think: Kind of a mixture of vintage Rolex with a twist of vintage Heuer thrown in. ;-)


Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! ; )


----------



## Thieuster

On hols. at the mo. Bad internet --- another great design. Too much to choose. Perhaps Bill will consider a subscription system: buy this watch and get and buy a complementary bezel and/ or dial every year. Now that is innovation!! Can you see the potential?Menno


----------



## Axelay2003

Malyel said:


> Thanks, here you go.


WOW! Thanks! That is hot!


----------



## STEELINOX

Malyel said:


> Thanks, here you go.


Saweeeet !


----------



## TheDude

Make it all stop. Please. We've gone way beyond what this watch should ever be. 

Some of these mockups look more like the LRRP GMT and probably should be mods to that model. 


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## STEELINOX

TheDude said:


> Make it all stop. Please. We've gone way beyond what this watch should ever be.
> 
> Some of these mockups look more like the LRRP GMT and probably should be mods to that model.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


Get a grip man, this doesn't look anything like the LRRP !

It doesn't have crown guards !

Its a far better looking piece than the LRRP !


----------



## tmoris

a nice article has been posted on the gmt master's history, check it out


----------



## austinnh

Malyel said:


>


The white dial and blue bezel looks great to me. I would prefer a lighter blue. It's not exactly a design Rolex ever made, but if it looks good...


----------



## TheDude

STEELINOX said:


> Get a grip man, this doesn't look anything like the LRRP !
> 
> It doesn't have crown guards !
> 
> Its a far better looking piece than the LRRP !


I said that a lot of the mockups and combinations look like standard modern GMTs. The 6542 was a very basic unadorned model.

I am quite familiar with it as I see a real one quite often as I know an older gentleman who wears his daily.

I think a lot of these iterations should be done on the LRRP rather than complicate and confuse the purity of the 6542 homage.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## TheDude

austinnh said:


> The white dial and blue bezel looks great to me. I would prefer a lighter blue. It's not exactly a design Rolex ever made, but if it looks good...


I have stated before that a pure blue GMT bezel would be super for a MKII. Rolex did this for some military GMTs and a military tie in is in keeping with the MkII spirit.

Again though, imo this should happen on the LRRP.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## STEELINOX

TheDude said:


> I said that a lot of the mockups and combinations look like standard modern GMTs. The 6542 was a very basic unadorned model.
> 
> I am quite familiar with it as I see a real one quite often as I know an older gentleman who wears his daily.
> 
> I think a lot of these iterations should be done on the LRRP rather than complicate and confuse the purity of the 6542 homage.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


Noted.

But there is no reason why the LRRP cant stay in its current form and the "MERIDIAN" be an entirely different model as it has been extensively shown by the talented hand of Malyel (spell).

Its like having an EXPLORER and an EXPLORER ll.

You dont have to buy it, remember !

And there's not much confusion looking at an LRRP = it looks exactly lika supercased GMT MASTER ll.

The MERIDIAN looks totally retro, and if anything the supercased LRRP has its "roots" stemming from this Malyel example; as history would suggest the GMTs evolution...


----------



## Arthur

I have to agree that we are getting away from the original concept of a homage to the venerable 6542. It's great to look at all the permutations that could be possible. With a large group of folks, there are always going to be some that like a particular dial/bezel combination while it leaves others cold. In the end, I would guess that Bill will come up with a couple of dial/hand options, just as he did with the Kingston, same with the bezel. If it's possible to make domed sapphire bezel inserts that are similar in configuration to the original Bakelite bezel inserts, more than likely the cost is going to be high. If the plans are to build 500 watches over time, it would be cheaper to produce 500+ Blue/Red inserts, or even 250 Blue Red and 250 Black inserts as opposed to making a hundred of 5 different color combinations. If the decision is made to go with metal inserts, probably the cost factor wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.


----------



## STEELINOX

Arthur said:


> I have to agree that we are getting away from the original concept of a homage to the venerable 6542. It's great to look at all the permutations that could be possible. With a large group of folks, there are always going to be some that like a particular dial/bezel combination while it leaves others cold. In the end, I would guess that Bill will come up with a couple of dial/hand options, just as he did with the Kingston, same with the bezel. If it's possible to make domed sapphire bezel inserts that are similar in configuration to the original Bakelite bezel inserts, more than likely the cost is going to be high. If the plans are to build 500 watches over time, it would be cheaper to produce 500+ Blue/Red inserts, or even 250 Blue Red and 250 Black inserts as opposed to making a hundred of 5 different color combinations. If the decision is made to go with metal inserts, probably the cost factor wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.


Agree. _"KISS"_ it and they will buy all that is produced, hopefully with aluminum inserts...


----------



## TheDude

Arthur said:


> I have to agree that we are getting away from the original concept of a homage to the venerable 6542. It's great to look at all the permutations that could be possible. With a large group of folks, there are always going to be some that like a particular dial/bezel combination while it leaves others cold. In the end, I would guess that Bill will come up with a couple of dial/hand options, just as he did with the Kingston, same with the bezel. If it's possible to make domed sapphire bezel inserts that are similar in configuration to the original Bakelite bezel inserts, more than likely the cost is going to be high. If the plans are to build 500 watches over time, it would be cheaper to produce 500+ Blue/Red inserts, or even 250 Blue Red and 250 Black inserts as opposed to making a hundred of 5 different color combinations. If the decision is made to go with metal inserts, probably the cost factor wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.


When I spoke to Bill in April (and tried to force him to take my deposit), he said he was inclined to build a black matte face and a white face (finish undetermined). Aluminum bezels. Simple.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## Arthur

TheDude said:


> When I spoke to Bill in April (and tried to force him to take my deposit), he said he was inclined to build a black matte face and a white face (finish undetermined). Aluminum bezels. Simple.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


I think that the simpler the concept, the shorter the time from design phase to delivery. Probably one of the things that has stretched out the Kingston project is the multitude of variations available. Look at these (hope I remembered them all!) These were the available Kingston options
1. Gilt non date C3
2. Gilt non date BWG9
3. Matte non Date C3
4. Matte nondate BWG9
5. Gilt Date (White DW) C3
6. Gilt Date (black DW) C3
7. Gilt Date (White DW) BWG9
8. Gilt Date (Black DW BWG9
9. Matte Date (White DW) C3
10. Matte Date (Black DW) C3
11. Matte Date (White DW) BWG9
12. Matte Date (Black DW) BWG9

Add to this all the plank orders were essentially another watch from the above, so for all practical purposes, Bill has/had over 400 watches to sort out. Now granted, there weren't any adjustments or bench time with the plank parts kit, but they all had to be correct before packing and shipping.

Makes my head spin just thinking about all these combinations, much less trying to put everything together correctly! Two dials, all date models, one date wheel, 2 bezel insert options are the way to go.


----------



## STEELINOX

Arthur said:


> I think that the simpler the concept, the shorter the time from design phase to delivery. Probably one of the things that has stretched out the Kingston project is the multitude of variations available. Look at these (hope I remembered them all!) These were the available Kingston options
> 1. Gilt non date C3
> 2. Gilt non date BWG9
> 3. Matte non Date C3
> 4. Matte nondate BWG9
> 5. Gilt Date (White DW) C3
> 6. Gilt Date (black DW) C3
> 7. Gilt Date (White DW) BWG9
> 8. Gilt Date (Black DW BWG9
> 9. Matte Date (White DW) C3
> 10. Matte Date (Black DW) C3
> 11. Matte Date (White DW) BWG9
> 12. Matte Date (Black DW) BWG9
> 
> Add to this all the plank orders were essentially another watch from the above, so for all practical purposes, Bill has/had over 400 watches to sort out. Now granted, there weren't any adjustments or bench time with the plank parts kit, but they all had to be correct before packing and shipping.
> 
> Makes my head spin just thinking about all these combinations, much less trying to put everything together correctly! Two dials, all date models, one date wheel, 2 bezel insert options are the way to go.


The Kingston sounds like a headache and a long enduring one at that...


----------



## Eric 0

For anyone who can't wait for the PanAm, and has a spare 40K lying around:Vintage Rolex Market: rolex 6542 $39500 Negotiable!!!

Also just some really nice reference detail. Love the bakelite lumed bezel. I know this is difficult to execute, but my Paradive has the no-longer-available acrylic lumed bezel. I love it so much. I also love the deep dark colors on the pepsi bezel too.


----------



## rkny

*Call me a heretic...*

but I'd like to see MKII skip the PanAm altogether and focus more on creating watches that are more distinctly original. The Quad 10 exemplifies this paradigm, perhaps better than any other MKII release. It strikes a near perfect balance between paying homage and forging ahead, without seeming derivative. Rather than being a watch that could not exist without a single previous inspiration, the Quad 10 joins existing pilots watches as its own entity.

The Quad 10's success owes much to the simplicity inherent in a pilot watch. A white dial GMT watch with a red and blue bezel will have a very hard time finding its own voice.

YMMV.


----------



## STEELINOX

*Re: Call me a heretic...*



rkny said:


> but I'd like to see MKII skip the PanAm altogether and focus more on creating watches that are more distinctly original. The Quad 10 exemplifies this paradigm, perhaps better than any other MKII release. It strikes a near perfect balance between paying homage and forging ahead, without seeming derivative. Rather than being a watch that could not exist without a single previous inspiration, the Quad 10 joins existing pilots watches as its own entity. The Quad 10's success owes much to the simplicity inherent in a pilot watch.* A white dial GMT watch with a red and blue bezel will have a very hard time finding its own voice. * YMMV.


 _Your kidding right? There is 14 pages in this thread worth of interest in this "great" idea.

This is a very nice piece, but it is certainly not "original" !
_


----------



## austinnh

*Re: Call me a heretic...*

I agree that simple aluminum bezels and fewer combinations are fine.


----------



## austinnh

TheDude said:


> I have stated before that a pure blue GMT bezel would be super for a MKII. Rolex did this for some military GMTs and a military tie in is in keeping with the MkII spirit.
> 
> Again though, imo this should happen on the LRRP.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


Cool, I didn't know about that military tie in. As a LRRP bezel it would be cool too, but I'm particularly attracted to the blue bezel + white dial combo. As far as I know this will be the only white dialed MkII in the immediate future.

That said, I understand the benefit of restricting the number of options to streamline the process.

Sent from my Laptop using Keyboard


----------



## TheDude

austinnh said:


> Cool, I didn't know about that military tie in.
> 
> Sent from my Laptop using Keyboard











I would support an all blue bezel option on the 6542 homage as long as I could also order a Pepsi.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## Tharifto Kansa

I like the look of GMT-Master II gold/steel *16713LN*.


----------



## JCW1980

A lot of very cool ideas and great mock-ups in here. Whatever Bill decides to do, I'm sure it will be a sweet watch. I'll bet though, that since he called this thread "How would you like the _PanAm_ to look?" - the color variations will include (at least) a pepsi bezel and the option of black or white dials, since those were the versions that PanAm purchased for their Pilots & Executives, respectively. That said, if Bill sees fit to offer other color combos too, I for one will be very interested to see what they are; I'm sure they'll look amazing.


----------



## G-Shocks Are Cool.

Now that is a cool homage of a homage. After all, the Rolex GMT Grand Master 2 is a homage to Pam Am.


----------



## BigHaole

Just watched the most recent episode of Pan Am and we saw the watch is peeking out from under sleeves several times. My wife said, "oh...you should get one like that." I told her I'm working on it...


----------



## Axelay2003

When and where do we sign up for these watches. I would like a white dial.


----------



## curt941

Malyel said:


>


Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!


----------



## STEELINOX

More GMT names... GLOBE MASTER, GLOBE STAR, "ORION" (for the PAN AM spacecraft in 2001 A Space Odyssey)


----------



## Neily_San

Pre-order ... is ... now ... OPEN !!
It is time to get out those purses and wallets ladies and gentlemen.

:-D

Neily


----------



## Alexxonvaldez

Have you seen THIS ???







Credit :
http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1323278013/rolex+6542+%2439500+Negotiable!!!

It's amazing. 
what type of lume was capable of such a life after... 54 years !


----------



## STEELINOX

Alexxonvaldez said:


> Have you seen THIS ???
> View attachment 608043
> 
> Credit :
> http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1323278013/rolex+6542+%2439500+Negotiable!!!
> 
> It's amazing.
> what type of lume was capable of such a life after... 54 years !


Yes, thats amazing indeed "wink-wink" ~ !


----------



## Arthur

STEELINOX said:


> Yes, thats amazing indeed "wink-wink" ~ !


This one is a little too good to be true. I would bet that a fair amount of this watch are NOT even close to 54 years old. One of the biggest problems with the 6542 is not much info is known about it, even the "experts" over on the Vintage Rolex Forum can't agree on things like the authenticity of the bakelite bezel inserts.

I tried to find this listing on The Vintage Rolex Market, but couldn't. I went back to well into December of last year, but couldn't find it. Has it been pulled? It would be interesting to see what others on the VRF think about this one.


----------



## 66Cooper

See, that just makes me want a sapphire lumed bezel even more now. Really wish that made it into the specs.


----------



## Quartersawn

Alexxonvaldez said:


> It's amazing.
> what type of lume was capable of such a life after... 54 years !


Radium, it has a half life of 1600 years. Tritium, which replaced radium due to health concerns, has a half life of only around 12 years.


----------



## Semuta

You know, it's interesting because this MKII PanAm will, in a way, be an homage to a watch that may have never existed. For instance, even hardcore Rolex collectors argue whether or not a white dialed version existed. There's so little info available that the MKII watch will really be a culmination of several wish lists.


----------



## White Tuna

Semuta said:


> You know, it's interesting because this MKII PanAm will, in a way, be an homage to a watch that may have never existed. For instance, even hardcore Rolex collectors argue whether or not a white dialed version existed. There's so little info available that the MKII watch will really be a culmination of several wish lists.


I really do not care if it ever was produced or not. I LOVE the way the white dialed version looks.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

:think:

66cooper -


> See, that just makes me want a sapphire lumed bezel even more now. Really wish that made it into the specs.


 It (sapphire bezel) may still- Read what Bill Yao has to say about this in his 'preorder available' announcement-Thats what I read into it, any way, and agreed that will certainly set this one apart if it does. (No thanks on the radium though-can't believe the lume in that Rolex is actually 50+ years....)


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

White Tuna said:


> I really do not care if it ever was produced or not. I LOVE the way the white dialed version looks.


I couldn't agree more!


----------



## Semuta

Don't get me wrong, I almost think it makes it a cooler idea. A real enthusiast's watch, honoring a concept everyone really hopes existed despite very little proof.


----------



## curt941

When Bill says "aluminum insert" does he mean the typical insert you'd find on a standard rolex, or perhaps an aluminum insert with milled out numbers with lume material in them like the new Raven 42mm Vintage watch?

Because a bezel like this would be nice if it was anodized in a navy blue with lume in the numbers that matched the dial.


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## White Tuna

I always thought the Raven was a good looking watch.


----------



## magix7

Lots of fantastic ideas floating around this thread! It's always nice to be able to dream haha..
I'll trust Bill with the final outcome of the watch, as history has shown, his choice of aesthetics are spot on. All I ask is that we don't stray too far from the original aesthetics of the First GMT! The beauty was in it's simplicity


----------



## Toiyabe

I'd really like to see something like this:







And I'd love this to be the caseback engraving:







I'd love to see the model called the "Clipper America" after the first 707 in revenue service.

Oh, and a sapphire crystal with no cyclops, but a nice dome, _a la_ the Steinhardt.


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## tmoris

raven lost my sympathies when they failed to answer my purchase query.. twice.


----------



## White Tuna

tmoris said:


> raven lost my sympathies when they failed to answer my purchase query.. twice.


On the plus side I like their dome but I used to think the proportion of the hands was off. :-s


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## austinnh

Now that the pre-order is open and more information released I'm inclined to admit that I am dismayed. I was looking forward to a Kingston based watch that wouldn't be such a limited run so I could wear it comfortably every day. The pre-order page indicates that this will be limited to 250 pieces. I will keep hoping. In the meantime, maybe a Paradive will help me feel better! |>


----------



## enkidu

austinnh said:


> Now that the pre-order is open and more information released I'm inclined to admit that I am dismayed. I was looking forward to a Kingston based watch that wouldn't be such a limited run so I could wear it comfortably every day. The pre-order page indicates that this will be limited to 250 pieces. I will keep hoping. In the meantime, maybe a Paradive will help me feel better! |>


I totally understand austinnh. I used to baby my stuff, especially the super rare stuff. Then I got a knife that I waited 3 years for. This particular knife is made by one guy who has closed his order list because he has enough to make for several years. This particular knife almost NEVER shows up in the used market and is effectively irreplaceable. I could barely stand to take it out of the tissue paper. I showed it to one of my friends once; watching me carefully repacking it after extolling it's many outstanding and unique characteristics, he gave me a puzzled look and asked "If you're not going to use it, why did you get it?" In a flash, I was enlightened; none of this will last, neither you, your relations, and especially your stuff. Enjoy them to their fullest.

I started carrying the knife that very day and enjoyed the heck out of it. It has a few beauty marks but it has proven to be my toughest, stoutest knife and one of my sharpest. When I got into watches and scored my grail after many years of searching, (an EZM1LE coincidently also only 250 made) I put it on and haven't looked back. That isn't to say I don't take care of them (in fact I bought a palm rest for my laptop so the long Ti clasp on the rubber strap wouldn't get as many beauty marks), but I don't worry about trying to keep them pristine either.

Put it another way, imagine the coolest guy you know of, (for me it's one of several people among them Carl Sagan and Steve McQueen). Let's say you see one of them getting on a boat or something and he bumps his watch against a cleat, a really rough, gnarly looking cleat. Would he freak out and start inspecting his watch for scratches? No, he might glance at it, but it wouldn't even merit a ripple in his cool. Why? Because other things are much more important.

So I say wear your Kingston as much as it gives you pleasure. It will get scratches and dings. And that is as things are meant to be. To those that matter, the watch you wore most often is more valuable than the one you kept in the safe. Wouldn't you have the watch you liked the best be the most valuable to them?

Sorry for the long post, but I saw a bit of my old self in your post and wanted to remind my old self of the flash of enlightenment we shared once.

P.S. Of course that isn't to say that you shouldn't get the Paradive ;-).


----------



## sunster

Watches are made to be worn and enjoyed...otherwise why bother? I don't understand those who buy something then stick it back in the box or in the safe...a waste


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Hmmmm_...... I've got a few scratches and dings myself...._

*Thanks for the refreshing insight, enkidu. *

( -Now I'll try and get over the mark on the (formerly new) Vantage- )

Best-


----------



## Arthur

I totally agree. I believe that watches are designed and built to be worn. I wear all of mine, in fact I was wearing my oldest and dearest watch, a Double Red SD 1665 very regularly up until a couple of weeks ago, when I accidently sprayed it full blast with a water hose!! A little while later I noticed a little condensation inside the crystal. Unscrewed the back, no water inside, left it open under a desk lamp for a few hours and put it back together. Probably some leakage occurred around the crystal gasket or retaining ring. It will now be worn under more controlled conditions for sure. My point is, these watches are built to take just about anything you can dish out, outside of out and out abuse. They are made to be worn and enjoyed. I have never understood the concept of "Safe Queens". I believe that you will enjoy your GMT or Kingston or whatever your choice a lot more if it's on your wrist rather than in your watch box.


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## Fullers1845

Brilliantly stated enkidu. That is, I believe, one of the reasons Bill makes modern versions of many of the historic pieces we know and love... so people won't be afraid to wear them!


----------



## Cleans Up

I was thinking the white dialed version- as I've got a lot of black watches.....but this might just convince me to sell off several of my other black dials  But yeah I'd still jones a bit for the white version too- so yeah my vote is for a dark blue 48click GMT bezel with vintage fonts, rivet bracelet ala kingston and the option to purchase other bezels, to keep it fresh. Not a long or a super "hard" list I would think, but that's mine.


If this comes thru, well I know one watch that'll pick up some beauty marks- cuz I'll be wearing it all the time!


----------



## nuovorecord

My vote is for white dial, red numbers on white date wheel, domed sapphire (no cyclops), pepsi bezel as close to the original as possible even if that means aluminum.

These pics just blow me away...STEFANO MAZZARIOL BLOG: Rolex GMT-MASTER ref .6542 ALBINO


----------



## enkidu

sunster, OmegaCosmicMan, Arthur, Fullers1845:
Thanks guys! Glad to be able to contribute to the conversation. BTW, OmegaCosmicMan, if you can't stand the mark on your Vantage, I might be persuaded to take it off your hands .


----------



## Packleader

If I had my way, it would look like this, without the cyclops. 
I don't suppose there will be an optional gold case? ;-)


----------



## pl39g

Malyel said:


> Here would be my take on a root beer inspired Pan Am. ;-)


I rather like that look. I know it won't be made but cool.


----------



## Packleader

*Re: How would you like the MKII Havana to look?*

Is the name *MKII GMT *an option? It is simple and right to the point.

If not, I suggest the name *HAVANA*, since that was the destination of the first Pan Am flight.

The name "Key West" -- I'm not so fond of.

Someone also suggested "Panama". I'm wondering if having these geographical names on the dial would cause confusion as to where the watches were manufactured, but this doesn't seem to have happened with the Kingston. Still, I can imagine someone looking at my shiny new MKII Havana and saying "Oh, a watch from Cuba? How did you get that past customs?" :think:

Cheers,
Packleader


----------



## austinnh

*Re: How would you like the MKII Havana to look?*

I think I should elaborate a bit more on my comment. None of my watches are or ever will be safe queens. I am not concerned about scratches. I am concerned about losing the watch due to bracelet or strap failure. Or shattering the crystal. The bracelet on my dad's Red Letter Sub once failed not long after a whitewater kayaking trip and the watch went crashing to the ground. Good thing it didn't fail in the rapids somewhere. I sail Hobie cats with my Rolex. Dinging your watch on the tiller is routine and crashes can be violent. When I say I want a watch I can wear every day, I'm talking about windsurfing, (attmpting) water skiing, downhill skiing (I wear a watch on the outside of glove), and paintball. Not that I do any of these things routinely, but I still would love to be able to comfortably wear my watch if I unexpectedly run into a water skiing opportunity etc. I think most will agree that water skiing is no place for a watch limited to 300 pieces. And to be clear, I'm not just concerned about damaging or losing my own watch; the way I see it, when I own such a limited and in-demand watch, in a certain way, I'm just taking care of something that belongs to a larger community of enthusiasts, on some level. For example, imagine someone posted on the forum that they had just taken their Kingston on a diving trip and failed to secure the clasp properly while diving a wall and their Kingston was now at the bottom of the ocean. It's not just their loss, I think a number of forum members who are searching for a Kingston or narrowly missed the last few general orders would also feel a sense of loss. Same thing if a Double Red Sea Dweller sank to the bottom of the sea. That is why when I own such a limited and in demand watch, I feel a sense of responsibility to the community to be careful with it. It's like owning a piece of artwork. And that is why I want a non-limited watch in the Kingston case.


----------



## White Tuna

pl39g said:


> I rather like that look. I know it won't be made but cool.


Meeeee tooooooooo


----------



## Packleader

*Re: How would you like the MKII Havana to look?*



austinnh said:


> I think I should elaborate a bit more on my comment. None of my watches are or ever will be safe queens. I am not concerned about scratches. I am concerned about losing the watch due to bracelet or strap failure. Or shattering the crystal. The bracelet on my dad's Red Letter Sub once failed not long after a whitewater kayaking trip and the watch went crashing to the ground. Good thing it didn't fail in the rapids somewhere. I sail Hobie cats with my Rolex. Dinging your watch on the tiller is routine and crashes can be violent. When I say I want a watch I can wear every day, I'm talking about windsurfing, (attmpting) water skiing, downhill skiing (I wear a watch on the outside of glove), and paintball. Not that I do any of these things routinely, but I still would love to be able to comfortably wear my watch if I unexpectedly run into a water skiing opportunity etc. I think most will agree that water skiing is no place for a watch limited to 300 pieces. And to be clear, I'm not just concerned about damaging or losing my own watch; the way I see it, when I own such a limited and in-demand watch, in a certain way, I'm just taking care of something that belongs to a larger community of enthusiasts, on some level. For example, imagine someone posted on the forum that they had just taken their Kingston on a diving trip and failed to secure the clasp properly while diving a wall and their Kingston was now at the bottom of the ocean. It's not just their loss, I think a number of forum members who are searching for a Kingston or narrowly missed the last few general orders would also feel a sense of loss. Same thing if a Double Red Sea Dweller sank to the bottom of the sea. That is why when I own such a limited and in demand watch, I feel a sense of responsibility to the community to be careful with it. It's like owning a piece of artwork. And that is why I want a non-limited watch in the Kingston case.


I understood your comment when you first posted it and I agree even more now that you have elaborated.

I am still relatively new to watch collecting, but I do have a bit of experience collecting art. There is an incredible resposibility that comes with collecting something rare. If, for example, a Dürer woodcut falls into a puddle or is left in the sunlight too long, it has been ruined for future generations. That's it. The artist has been gone for almost 500 years. There is no way to replace it.

Some people may argue that the value of a limited run of MKII watches cannot be compared to a limited set of Dürer prints. Perhaps they are right. But collectors in the year 2512 might have a very different opinion. :think:

Best regards,
Packleader


----------



## austinnh

*Re: How would you like the MKII Havana to look?*

MkII is not as extreme as Durer prints, but the principle is the same in my mind. Enough so to influence what activities I will wear my Kingston for.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

> BTW, OmegaCosmicMan, if you can't stand the mark on your Vantage, I might be persuaded to take it off your hands .


Mmmmmm, I pretty sure that Vantage has a 'permanent' home, at least until I pass on and it gets passed on to the next generation. ;-)


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: How would you like the MKII PanAm to look?*

|>|>


> Is the name *MKII GMT *an option? It is simple and right to the point.


 |>|>

I might be able to go with 'Greenwich' (which I think was suggested as a name for Project 300).


----------



## Packleader

*Re: How would you like the MKII GMT to look?*



OmegaCosmicMan said:


> |>|> |>|>I might be able to go with 'Greenwich' (which I think was suggested as a name for Project 300).


You won't believe how many people pronounce it "green witch". o|


----------



## enkidu

Thanks for the clarification austinnh. I think I understand much better now. Personally, I switch to NATO straps when I'm doing any outdoor stuff. Eliminates the mode of a single pin failure resulting in me losing my watch.

As to the other hazards, I guess my life in Silicon Valley is much less exciting than yours. Sounds like a lot of fun though! Whichever watches you wear, wear them in good health!


----------



## White Tuna

*Re: How would you like the MKII GMT to look?*



Packleader said:


> You won't believe how many people pronounce it "green witch". o|
> 
> View attachment 612020


So I will be wearing my MIIK Green Witch. :-d


----------



## Dragoon

Great thread on the GMT Project and suggestions.

It seems like the bezel insert is going to be an alum. insert which is ok (unless Bill figures out a way to create a sapphire inlay). 

My suggestion would be for a two piece bezel inlay made out of ceramic. Perhaps it could even be a removable cage which encases the ceramic bezel pieces. 

So, if you see the colored (red, blue, black, white) ceramic bezel pieces with the numerals they would be half of the dial or 12 hours worth of bezel. The cage would hold the two halves and have some type of screw in (perhaps four micro screws on the bezel itself to hold in the bezel insert cage). 

This way, you could have whatever color bezel insert pieces you would like and even change them on occasion by unscrewing the bezel cage and pulling out the insert and re inserting another/different ceramic color bezel cage.

I think the ceramic bezel pieces might be more feasible than a sapphire inlay in the case and perhaps easier to manufacture due to their less brittle nature. 

Creating a bezel, bezel cage for the ceramic insert pieces, and screw in system might make this an impossible modification but others have used the removable bezels before with good success. I know O7 did it with their re release on their cold carbon LM-1 (at least with removable bezels) and others with removable/replaceable bezels also.

Or, perhaps, a simpler ceramic bezel insert which is either one piece all one color with options of blue, white, black, and two color aluminum inserts. I have no clue if two color ceramic inserts are possible. Then, if I understand the package correctly there would be two bezels included and one could be one solid color ceramic and one two color aluminum, if one desired the multicolored bezel insert.

I guess you can tell I like ceramic inserts. Everyone can dream.


----------



## MHe225

It's a shame that too many limited edition xxxx never get used for what they were intended for. We mentioned watches and knives, but I also think exotic cars and motorcycles. What irony that the fastest and most beautiful cars (and mc's) will never perform at these extreme levels they were designed for.

Some may have read my earlier posts on the same subject: I do own a limited edition Ducati MH900_e_ motorcycle #225/2000 (explains the screen name). After my order was confirmed and the long wait began, I got caught up in the discussions amongst future owners and was leaning toward not riding the bike. That's when my wife said "_... in that case, I'm going to cancel your order and get you a nice high quality 1:1 photograph of the bike, have it framed and hang it in your study ...._" 
That was a much needed reality check and I have since put ca 20,000 (s)miles on mine. Which puts it in the small group (a few tens worldwide) of MH900_e_'s that have accumulated more than 3,000 miles.

The day I managed to get in on General Ordering for the Kingston, I did contacted Mr. Yao and asked if #225 was still available. Long story short: I'm looking very much forward to my first ride on MH_e_225 wearing Kingston #225

RonB


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: How would you like the MKII GMT to look?*

That's Great -:-d



> You won't believe how many people pronounce it "green witch".


Ummm, yes, I probably would believe........:roll:

Thanks for posting - You got me....:-d


----------



## austinnh

enkidu said:


> As to the other hazards, I guess my life in Silicon Valley is much less exciting than yours. Sounds like a lot of fun though! Whichever watches you wear, wear them in good health!


I don't want to make it sounds like I'm some professional thrill seeker. Most of my life is spent in front of a desk, and always will be, just like most members of this forum (how else would we pay for watches? :-d). It's just that my preferred vacations usually involve some kind of outdoor activity, some of which are pretty dangerous to watches. And it's not so much that I need a watch on my wrist, it's more that I don't want to be bothered with taking it off and putting in a safe place while I fail at water skiing.

I guess it also comes down to the fact that I'm a one watch guy by nature. I wore my Rolex almost every single day until it stopped (oh yeah, need to fix that), so I'm not likely to have a specific "weekend/vacation watch" or a "beach beater."

My watches don't see anything near the abuse that some do on the wrist of professional field types: military, police, paramedic, field research, etc.


----------



## Cleans Up

I "like" this post and would like it Xwhatever if possible. I for one understand not riding/wearing an heirloom...but a new bike? A new watch? Heck that's what MIIK is too me, the useable, loveable wearable (and waterproof turst-worthy)version of a venerable classic.

Cheers mate, ya made me smile , and my duc (not an MH I'm sad to say) says hi!



MHe225 said:


> It's a shame that too many limited edition xxxx never get used for what they were intended for. We mentioned watches and knives, but I also think exotic cars and motorcycles. What irony that the fastest and most beautiful cars (and mc's) will never perform at these extreme levels they were designed for.
> 
> Some may have read my earlier posts on the same subject: I do own a limited edition Ducati MH900_e_ motorcycle #225/2000 (explains the screen name). After my order was confirmed and the long wait began, I got caught up in the discussions amongst future owners and was leaning toward not riding the bike. That's when my wife said "_... in that case, I'm going to cancel your order and get you a nice high quality 1:1 photograph of the bike, have it framed and hang it in your study ...._"
> That was a much needed reality check and I have since put ca 20,000 (s)miles on mine. Which puts it in the small group (a few tens worldwide) of MH900_e_'s that have accumulated more than 3,000 miles.
> 
> The day I managed to get in on General Ordering for the Kingston, I did contacted Mr. Yao and asked if #225 was still available. Long story short: I'm looking very much forward to my first ride on MH_e_225 wearing Kingston #225
> 
> RonB


----------



## tmoris

Im not sure if this has been mentioned before or not, but whats the panam bracelet that would be preferred? even though i have 3 mkii prepayments i never actually held an mkii and have no idea whether Bill's watchmaking quality (as i hear on the forum) applies for bracelets as well. i have some rather bad experience with steinhart bracelets. on the other hand one of the best bracelets i ever wore is the omega 1610/930 bracelet (eg on the smp 2254.50). Is Bill on par or close to the SMP bracelet or more on the Steinhart side? I would very much be willing to lower my demands on certain spare parts etc just for the sake of having a really comfortable bracelet that i can actually wear. Otherwise if its close to Steinhart then I would have to swap the bracelet for a nato leaving me with 2 bracelets (orig+spare) that have no use for me..

edit: and this is pretty much the same question that i would like to ask concerning P300. if there is still room for improvement (should that be necessary) on this?


----------



## sunster

Bill's bracelets are fairly generic supplied by one of his suppliers, not surprising given the price band...certainly not on a par with Omega (but you can argue that the prev generation of Rolex watches aren't either).
Not owned a Steinhart but I can imagine they'd be fairly similar.


----------



## Thieuster

tmoris said:


> Im not sure if this has been mentioned before or not, but whats the panam bracelet that would be preferred? even though i have 3 mkii prepayments i never actually held an mkii and have no idea whether Bill's watchmaking quality (as i hear on the forum) applies for bracelets as well. i have some rather bad experience with steinhart bracelets. on the other hand one of the best bracelets i ever wore is the omega 1610/930 bracelet (eg on the smp 2254.50). Is Bill on par or close to the SMP bracelet or more on the Steinhart side? I would very much be willing to lower my demands on certain spare parts etc just for the sake of having a really comfortable bracelet that i can actually wear. Otherwise if its close to Steinhart then I would have to swap the bracelet for a nato leaving me with 2 bracelets (orig+spare) that have no use for me..
> 
> edit: and this is pretty much the same question that i would like to ask concerning P300. if there is still room for improvement (should that be necessary) on this?


I don't know the quality of the 2254.50's bracelet; I only had that watch on my wrist for a short while at an Omega AD. I do know that Bill's Kingston bracelet is at least as good as the original bracelet Rolex put on their 14060M (Sub no date). Personally, I love the look of the Kingston bracelet, but I hate the adjustment, so I replaced it with a Hadley Roma and the Kingston's endlinks.

The original bracelets that come with a MKII (LRRP and a Vantage included), are -as said- up to par with the bracelets of more expensive brands, or even better: e.g. the prementioned Rolex bracelet. That has a plain metal plate between the clasp ends (stamped 'Rolex') or the well known Omega 1171 on a Speedy with it's simple and rattling clasp, where the MKII bracelets have a solid piece of engineered s/steel. I think that the MKII bracelets are more into Seiko territory, like the ones on a Sumo. (Not a Marinemaster with it's ingenious clasp - the MKIIs are less complicated)

Hope this helps!

Menno


----------



## tmoris

I see. Well... am I the only one who would vote for higher bracelet quality and letting the spare bracelet go, so that we could get a better one for the price of two "worse" ones?


----------



## magix7

tmoris said:


> I see. Well... am I the only one who would vote for higher bracelet quality and letting the spare bracelet go, so that we could get a better one for the price of two "worse" ones?


+ Agreed! would much rather have a single quality piece.


----------



## sunster

I believe designing a bracelet from scratch and then ensuring finish and quality would take alot of time and expense. That's why so many of the micro-brew watch companies all use the similar, if not the same, bracelets.


----------



## tmoris

sunster said:


> I believe designing a bracelet from scratch and then ensuring finish and quality would take alot of time and expense. That's why so many of the micro-brew watch companies all use the similar, if not the same, bracelets.


they are unwearable though.. at least that was the case with the steinhart and seiko 5 bracelets that i had..


----------



## gman54

tmoris said:


> they are unwearable though.. at least that was the case with the steinhart and seiko 5 bracelets that i had..


I agree, the bracelets on Steinhart aren't worthy of the watch. My Steinharts are worn on zulu straps. My MKII watches are worn on the MKII bracelets and are very comfortable. The comfort is every bit as my Rolex oyster bracelets.

G


----------



## BigHaole

tmoris said:


> they are unwearable though.. at least that was the case with the steinhart and seiko 5 bracelets that i had..


What about them is unwearable? I have an older model Rolex, and while the band is definitely "chintzy", it is extremely comfortable to wear.


----------



## White Tuna

I have no interest in a second bracelet. If the one provided is good I will wear that. If it is not, why would I want two?


----------



## nuovorecord

For me, the issue with the Steinhart bracelet is just the clasp. It doesn't sit flush against the bracelet because the radius of the outer part of the clasp doesn't match the radius of the part that sits next to your wrist. So if you're using the tightest of the micro adjust settings on the clasp, it sticks up and away from the bracelet. I have a 7 1/4" wrist, so maybe this isn't a concern among those of you with larger wrists.

The actual links in the bracelet are just fine, as are the end links.

Do any owners of the Kingston have a similar issue with the bracelet clasp?


----------



## gman54

nuovorecord said:


> For me, the issue with the Steinhart bracelet is just the clasp. It doesn't sit flush against the bracelet because the radius of the outer part of the clasp doesn't match the radius of the part that sits next to your wrist. So if you're using the tightest of the micro adjust settings on the clasp, it sticks up and away from the bracelet. I have a 7 1/4" wrist, so maybe this isn't a concern among those of you with larger wrists.
> 
> The actual links in the bracelet are just fine, as are the end links.
> 
> Do any owners of the Kingston have a similar issue with the bracelet clasp?


You hit the nail on the head about the bracelets used by Steinhart. The links/end links are fine. I've ordered Hadley Roma oyster bracelets to mount them on my Steinhart watches using the end links with the Steinhart bracelets. The bracelets on my MKII watches lay flat on the wrist and are easily comparable to my Rolex bracelets... perfect fit and finish!

Hadley-Roma Solid Link Stainless Steel Watch Band Model: MB4486W

Men's Metal Watch Bands - Hadley Roma Stainless Steel | GlobalWatchBand.com

gman54


----------



## tmoris

BigHaole said:


> What about them is unwearable? I have an older model Rolex, and while the band is definitely "chintzy", it is extremely comfortable to wear.


chunky, squeaky, do not taper, pull hair. in comparison the SMP bracelet i mentioned earlier moves softly, noiselessly and never ever pulls hair

edit: not to mention the SMP clasp, but thats a completely different realm and not what i would see necessary to achieve here..


----------



## nuovorecord

gman54 said:


> You hit the nail on the head about the bracelets used by Steinhart. The links/end links are fine. I've ordered Hadley Roma oyster bracelets to mount them on my Steinhart watches using the end links with the Steinhart bracelets. The bracelets on my MKII watches lay flat on the wrist and are easily comparable to my Rolex bracelets... perfect fit and finish!
> 
> Hadley-Roma Solid Link Stainless Steel Watch Band Model: MB4486W
> 
> Men's Metal Watch Bands - Hadley Roma Stainless Steel | GlobalWatchBand.com
> 
> gman54


Thanks gman! This was exactly feedback I was hoping to get. I couldn't conceive of the MK II having the same clasp issues as the Steinhart, but it's nice to get confirmation.

And, I owe you one for the tip on the H-D bracelet for my Ocean GMT. Going to order one of those right now. Thanks again! :-!


----------



## 66Cooper

I TOTALLY hear you. I have a LE classic Mini Cooper Monte Carlo (1 of 200 and of that only 60 in black which I have) and I drive it. More so I track it when I can. Like my watches, I get the most of enjoyment out of actually using them as intended. When I race, I do so under the Mini Monte famous #37 both with my Mini and other cars. I too asked Bill and he came through. I currently have Kingston #37 strapped to my wrist with #37 Pan Am hopefully in the near future.



MHe225 said:


> It's a shame that too many limited edition xxxx never get used for what they were intended for. We mentioned watches and knives, but I also think exotic cars and motorcycles. What irony that the fastest and most beautiful cars (and mc's) will never perform at these extreme levels they were designed for.
> 
> Some may have read my earlier posts on the same subject: I do own a limited edition Ducati MH900_e_ motorcycle #225/2000 (explains the screen name). After my order was confirmed and the long wait began, I got caught up in the discussions amongst future owners and was leaning toward not riding the bike. That's when my wife said "_... in that case, I'm going to cancel your order and get you a nice high quality 1:1 photograph of the bike, have it framed and hang it in your study ...._"
> That was a much needed reality check and I have since put ca 20,000 (s)miles on mine. Which puts it in the small group (a few tens worldwide) of MH900_e_'s that have accumulated more than 3,000 miles.
> 
> The day I managed to get in on General Ordering for the Kingston, I did contacted Mr. Yao and asked if #225 was still available. Long story short: I'm looking very much forward to my first ride on MH_e_225 wearing Kingston #225
> 
> RonB


----------



## gmhutton

MHe225 said:


> +1
> 
> Smaller crown looks more balanced and the Pepsi bezel is way nicer. I still prefer the white dial and am not too hot on the Clipper name - sounds too much like Flipper which, on the other hand, could be very appropriate (if the Kingston is an indication .... ;-)). Kidding aside, I think we've seen better naming suggestions.
> 
> Very nice mock-ups |> Thank you so much, Malyel, for visualizing what so many of us have been babbling about.
> 
> RonB
> 
> PS - maybe you can do a Christmas version just for kicks: red, green and gilt - eh, gold.


Clipper isnt such a stupid name as all of Pan Am's planes were referred to as 'clippers', therefore its possibly the closest you can get unless you call it the Pan american.


----------



## gmhutton

Malyel said:


> Here would be my take on a root beer inspired Pan Am. ;-)


the root beer look is really cool. thats the one for me.


----------



## KingK12

Blue dial, silver lettering, white markings, big face like a 46mm or so and a heavy bracelet is a must!


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## Arthur

KingK12 said:


> Blue dial, silver lettering, white markings, big face like a 46mm or so and a heavy bracelet is a must!


Hopefully your description is really "tongue in cheek", as what you described is just about as far from the original intent of the PanAm GMT as you can possibly get.


----------



## Dragoon

I would hope we can vote on the name. "Clipper" could NOT possibly be the name of choice for most folks involved. Just my opinion and hope.

Yes, clippers used to be fine ships in the sailing days of yore and I am sure that was Pan Ams intention on marketing the clipper name to give comfort and charm in endearing their customers to this new type of travel by airplanes. But, as far as the watch part goes, there are so many other BETTER names. In fact, clipper would be the only one that I have heard so far that I actually dislike.

I gotta go get my clippers to give my son a haircut. Be back later.



gmhutton said:


> Clipper isnt such a stupid name as all of Pan Am's planes were referred to as 'clippers', therefore its possibly the closest you can get unless you call it the Pan american.


----------



## gmhutton

Watchamacallit said:


> Small niggle because this crops up again and again, even on my Kingston.  _Miele_ use this term for the retractable cord in their vacuum cleaners. Teutonic translator, I guess. For watches, I think there isn't really anything wrong with the established terms (self-winding, automatic).
> 
> _The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter-it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning._ -Mark Twain


is there any need to put 'auto winding or 'automatic' on the dial. we know its an auto, but do we need to tell the world that it has an auto movement ???


----------



## MHe225

gmhutton said:


> Clipper isnt such a stupid name as all of Pan Am's planes were referred to as 'clippers', therefore its possibly the closest you can get unless you call it the Pan american.


I have 2 clipper's* so i think i'm qualified to have an opinion ;-) & :-d

For the record, I just expressed a personal opinion and never labeled the Clipper name "stupid"

RonB

* not of the sailing variety (I wish)


----------



## gmhutton

MHe225 said:


> I have 2 clipper's* so i think i'm qualified to have an opinion ;-) & :-d
> 
> For the record, I just expressed a personal opinion and never labeled the Clipper name "stupid"
> 
> RonB
> 
> * not of the sailing variety (I wish)


my apologies. stupid wasnt the right word. you didnt use it so i shouldnt have done,

best
G


----------



## STEELINOX

"ORION" is nice and catchy, Its PAN AM's last "space clipper" outing after all...


----------



## tmoris

i think its a good idea to set a name at the very beginning of this project, since we can see how hard it is to name a watch after its been called "project 300" for so long..


----------



## cpenning623

I'm probably missing something, but I read earlier that the pre-order was open. I cant find anything on the MKII web site, can someone direct me to the pre-order page?

And is this now called the GMT?


----------



## BigHaole

On the website it's Project GMT, and the pre-order filled up. There should be a link to get on the list for general order.


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## White Tuna

How about keeping it simple and call it the MKII GMT LE or Kingston GMT?


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## tomr

White Tuna said:


> How about keeping it simple and call it the MKII GMT LE or Kingston GMT?


I like the simplicity concept, and the MKII GMT LE is a fine example. However, I believe that, based upon the terms of the Kingston LE project, the "Kingston" moniker is to be retired after completion of the original 300 watches, which would preclude any further use of that name.


----------



## ASRSPR

I came across this interesting shot, showing the evolution of the Rolex GMT's profile. I don't know if something like the Project 300's proposed high dome sapphire is possible, but I'd much prefer a crystal that's at least somewhat prouder than the one on the Kingston.


----------



## tomr

Great photo - thanks for posting it. While I love the older vintage acrylic crystals, Bill has stated that acrylic will not be considered for a number of reasons (you can refer to his post on this). Also, the Kingston case with its current domed sapphire crystal is a fairly thick 14.50mm; and, placing a more proud crystal on that case might make for a very thick watch, certainly not in line with the GMT it will be an homage to. Most of those Rolex GMT's that are illustrated in your picture are listed at 12.4mm. Even though the older, acrylic crystals were higher than the newer model sapphire models, the older model cases were thinner.

I know there are many here and elsewhere in the watch world who love their big, thick watches, but I am not one of them. The reason I am attracted to these homages is to create an opportunity to acquire a watch that emulates the look and feel of an icon of the past, that for many of us might be unattainable.



ASRSPR said:


> I came across this interesting shot, showing the evolution of the Rolex GMT's profile. I don't know if something like the Project 300's proposed high dome sapphire is possible, but I'd much prefer a crystal that's at least somewhat prouder than the one on the Kingston.


----------



## enkidu

They all look really nice. The subtle dome and sleek case and lug contours of the second one from the bottom gets my vote. Except for the crown guards.


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## TheDude

ASRSPR said:


> I came across this interesting shot, showing the evolution of the Rolex GMT's profile. I don't know if something like the Project 300's proposed high dome sapphire is possible, but I'd much prefer a crystal that's at least somewhat prouder than the one on the Kingston.


Yeah, we asked about this a while back. Not gonna happen. Too hard/expensive. FWIW, the 6542 crystal is flat, not domed. It does have a steep bevel though.










I own the watch on the bottom, and what you can't tell from the pictures is the neat trick Rolex did with the crystal. They left a small amount of space between the crystal and the bezel, so you can see the edge of the crystal without it being proud and exposed to potential damage. It gives the illusion of a proud crystal but protects it better.

EDIT... Actually on further inspection of that photo of stacked watch heads, I don't have the one on the bottom. That photo is missing the newest GMT with the ceramic bezel.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## gman54

tmoris said:


> i think its a good idea to set a name at the very beginning of this project, since we can see how hard it is to name a watch after its been called "project 300" for so long..


I prefer P300 in reference to project 300. I refer to the watch as the project 300.

G


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

enkidu said:


> They all look really nice. The subtle dome and sleek case and lug contours of the second one from the bottom gets my vote. Except for the crown guards.


 Ditto for me - |>|>


----------



## TheDude

enkidu said:


> They all look really nice. The subtle dome and sleek case and lug contours of the second one from the bottom gets my vote. Except for the crown guards.


There's no dome on any of these models. What you see is an illusion from the angle it was shot at.

Also, these watches look elongated to me. One of these is supposed to be a Fat Lady, which is as thick as a Sea Dweller and noticeably thicker than GMTs that came before and after. I think we don't do ourselves any favors making decisions based on this photo.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## Arthur

I know there are many here and elsewhere in the watch world who love their big, thick watches, but I am not one of them. The reason I am attracted to these homages is to create an opportunity to acquire a watch that emulates the look and feel of an icon of the past, that for many of us might be unattainable.[/QUOTE]

Tom, 
I agree with you 100% . I have several Dive watches that are thick, primarily because they have to have a beefier case, thicker crystal, etc. to survive the pressure testing for their stated depth limits. The GMT is NOT a dive watch. It's original purpose as we all know was to allow pilots flying through several time zones to keep up with times in 2 time zones, not for diving to 1000 ft!
I have a Rolex 16750, and it is absolutely bar none the most comfortable watch I own. It is thinner, lighter, and it literally "disappears" on your wrist. That to me is what this watch is all about. You have to look at your wrist to make sure your watch is still there.


----------



## Arthur

TheDude said:


> Yeah, we asked about this a while back. Not gonna happen. Too hard/expensive. FWIW, the 6542 crystal is flat, not domed. It does have a steep bevel though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own the watch on the bottom, and what you can't tell from the pictures is the neat trick Rolex did with the crystal. They left a small amount of space between the crystal and the bezel, so you can see the edge of the crystal without it being proud and exposed to potential damage. It gives the illusion of a proud crystal but protects it better.
> 
> EDIT... Actually on further inspection of that photo of stacked watch heads, I don't have the one on the bottom. That photo is missing the newest GMT with the ceramic bezel.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


I really like the beveled edge of the 6542. I have a 1680 with the "top hat" 127 Crystal, and it makes me nervous every time I wear it. I have a tendency to run into things, and bang my watches up . I have had a couple of crystals replaced because I knocked the edge off the top. Having a beveled edge would be a lot better, even though Sapphire is harder, it can break. the prouder the crystal is above the bezel, the more exposed it is.


----------



## TheDude

Arthur said:


> Tom,
> I agree with you 100% . I have several Dive watches that are thick, primarily because they have to have a beefier case, thicker crystal, etc. to survive the pressure testing for their stated depth limits. The GMT is NOT a dive watch. It's original purpose as we all know was to allow pilots flying through several time zones to keep up with times in 2 time zones, not for diving to 1000 ft!
> I have a Rolex 16750, and it is absolutely bar none the most comfortable watch I own. It is thinner, lighter, and it literally "disappears" on your wrist. That to me is what this watch is all about. You have to look at your wrist to make sure your watch is still there.


True that the GMT doesn't need a big depth rating.

It should be pointed out that Rolex watches have that low profile because of the oyster caseback. Bill can't replicate that without infringing. Standard casebacks on cases of similar thickness will be thicker. The Vantage is quite a bit thicker than the 39mm Explorer because of the caseback.

As great as Bill's watches are, we need to keep the line between the possible and the impossible clearly defined.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## White Tuna

Hi, would you mind telling me what an oyster caseback is? I did a quick search and it is mostly for sales or watches.


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## TheDude

White Tuna said:


> Hi, would you mind telling me what an oyster caseback is? I did a quick search and it is mostly for sales or watches.


Well, the oyster case is a Rolex patented design. The caseback is super flush and low profile.

Rolex 39mm Exp



















MKII Vantage










Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## White Tuna

Thank you The Dude. So no other watchmaker makes such a flush case? This is interesting.


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## TheDude

White Tuna said:


> Thank you The Dude. So no other watchmaker makes such a flush case? This is interesting.


No, there are other cases and movements that are thin, but in my experience the boutique makers using commodity movements and caseback parts seem to be much thicker.

Specific to Rolex homages, unless the case+back are a blatant fake using the oyster design, they all seem to be thicker than the real Rolexes.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## White Tuna

TheDude said:


> No, there are other cases and movements that are thin, but in my experience the boutique makers using commodity movements and caseback parts seem to be much thicker.
> 
> Specific to Rolex homages, unless the case+back are a blatant fake using the oyster design, they all seem to be thicker than the real Rolexes.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


Yeah, I notice a lot of the boutique brands have very thick cases. Even the Kingston is a little thicker than I was expecting, but it is much slimmer than a lot of the ones I have seen. The thickness is a negative for me on a lot of these watches.


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## STEELINOX

The ROLEX patented caseback also incorporates a special knurl pattern or serration that a tool "catches" lika wrench to unscrew the caseback from the mid casing - only ROLEX uses this particular pattern tooling "opener"...


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## Fullers1845

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the Oyster caseback makes the Rolex thinner. My 14060m was considerably thicker than my Tudor Sub is (which has the same caseback design--tho different size).


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## STEELINOX

You're right, it doesn't, I think the item of interest here is the patented caseback opener serrations that ROLEX uses.

My SUBMARINER, sits pretty tall with this caseback as well...


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## TheDude

STEELINOX said:


> You're right, it doesn't, I think the item of interest here is the patented caseback opener serrations that ROLEX uses.
> 
> My SUBMARINER, sits pretty tall with this caseback as well...


That's a dive watch. Also, different vintages are thicker or thinner. My 1680 Submariner is quite thin. In fact, your caseback looks like an unmarked Sea Dweller back.

I stand by my observation. Look at a Vantage next to a 39mm Exp. There's a huge difference in the casebacks and this has a huge impact on how it wears on the wrist. How it wears was something a few folks were talking about in this thread so I brought it up.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## STEELINOX

TheDude said:


> That's a dive watch. Also, different vintages are thicker or thinner. My 1680 is quite thin.
> 
> I stand by my observation. Look at a Vantage next to a 39mm Exp. There's a huge difference in the casebacks and this has a huge impact on how it wears on the wrist. How it wears was something a few folks were talking about in this thread so I brought it up.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


I understand your observation. Oyster casebacks vary in size and depth...


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

KingK12 said:


> Blue dial, silver lettering, white markings, big face like a 46mm or so and a heavy bracelet is a must!


Sounds somewhat interesting for another watch, but not for this one....No, Thank You.


----------



## ASRSPR

TheDude said:


> It should be pointed out that Rolex watches have that low profile because of the oyster caseback. Bill can't replicate that without infringing.





TheDude said:


> Well, the oyster case is a Rolex patented design. The caseback is super flush and low profile.


The term of patent in both the United States and Europe is at most 20 years. Infringement is no longer possible for these designs. It's certainly reasonable that Bill and others manufacturers have chosen against it because of technical reasons or else to avoid even unfounded assertions of impropriety. But there should be no legal requirement for them to do so.


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## Arthur

ASRSPR said:


> The term of patent in both the United States and Europe is at most 20 years. Infringement is no longer possible for these designs. It's certainly reasonable that Bill and others manufacturers have chosen against it because of technical reasons or else to avoid even unfounded assertions of impropriety. But there should be no legal requirement for them to do so.


I think that one of the underlying factors is Rolex is the "800 pound Gorilla' in the room. they have demonstrated that they will go after anyone they think are not doing exactly what they specify. They have yanked AD's licenses for selling over the internet, selling below retail (Advertising below MSRP prices) Selling parts, you name it. Their legal department and their legal representatives here in the USA are always on the lookout for any real or imagined infringements. I don't think it's worth it to go out on a limb and try to duplicate something that is uniquely Rolex. Another thing, suppose you decided to duplicate the knurled ring that the opener fits into to open the caseback. ASFAIK Rolex is the only watch company that uses this particular design. So unless you make your caseback exactly the same size and configuration as a Rolex case, you are going to have to have someone build a case opener to fit your watch. Why go through all that hassle and trouble. Unless you take your watch off, no one is going to see the caseback anyway. Why wave a red flag in front of the bull? Or in this case the giant Gorilla!!


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## TheDude

I certainly didn't intend to steer the discussion towards patent law or whether or not ROLEX is an evil company. 

I simply highlighted aspects of the case and caseback that I believe contribute to how the watches wear. This was only in response to several posts commenting about thinness and wearability. 

If no one objects, let's get back to how the PanAm should look. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## cpotters

Here's a goofy little link to a video I just saw on YouTube: How do you want your PanAM to look? I've never even seen some of these models before, and don't know whether some were custom or fake, but the music put me in a good GMT mood, so I thought I share it here:






Have fun, kids!


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## OmegaCosmicMan

Been reviewing (again) all that has been written about the Project GMT and the idea-hopper is full to overflowing, so....

nuovorecord asked....



> Do any owners of the Kingston have a similar issue with the bracelet clasp?


No.

I have a Kingston, and of course Bill's version of the riveted bracelet that came with it. And it is by far, the best bracelet I've worn. (Even better than the Vantage bracelet, which is also very nice). Solid links, but light (because the links are thin in profile), just the right amount of flexibility side-to-side, the bracelet has a nice taper from 20mm to 16mm at clasp, clasp cover is 18mm and the parts under most strain are made of quality stainless castings, not folded sheet metal - clasp cover is sheet stainless, but it does not pinch grab or rub in any way. And this was something I was concerned about when I saw the pictures of it before I got the one I have now, and to my relief, the bracelet is superb overall, much better than I expected it to be. :-!

I also purchased the Hadley-Roma solid link replacement noted in several posts. It fits the Kingston end-links very nicely, but I have found that I really like the way the rivet bracelet fits, and its balance and wear-ability compared to the Hadley solid. Now, to be sure, bracelet adjustment is a major PITA (pain in the back-end), but you might only have to do that once. The execution of the Kingston rivet piece is superb, overall, and so it gets my vote as the bracelet for this watch, along with the Kingston case and solid end-links. :-!

I agree that the GMT does not warrant an 8mm crown, but it should be a screw-down one - maybe 6mm? Our last trip to Mexico got me in the water even though I hadn't anticipated it at that time - as many watches as I've been through that were ruined by water, I like all the reasonable water-resistance I can get - it adds to durability over time.

Crystal? Bill's already covered it, it should be a popped-up sapphire, but only enough for adequate hand - clearance. If it sticks up too much it will be more susceptible to damage. Cyclops, nice, but another minor detail to scratch or lose. Lugs?-Drilled, please ala Kingston. I leave the debate about the watch dial color (although I prefer white - or maybe a full lume dial?) only stating it should be a gilt dial and hands, like the Kingston. You have to appreciate the total effect of the gilding in person to understand - No picture or video or image I've seen totally catches the way the gilded dial and hands work with the light the magical way that they do (on the Kingston). I like the Pepsi blue and red bezel insert idea, but if the bezel is sapphire with lume and therefore can only come in one color, I'll take the single-color sapphire, Thanks.

But if we end up with something else, I don't believe that it will break the deal for me. ;-)

(Longer Post than intended...my six cents worth....)


----------



## TheDude

One of the updates on the MkII site says an official design thread will open in "the third or fourth week in February". I assume this is coming soon and should be quite enlightening. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## 66Cooper

That will be good. Bill has a pretty good idea of what he can do and what this will most likely be able to happen.


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## nuovorecord

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> Been reviewing (again) all that has been written about the Project GMT and the idea-hopper is full to overflowing, so....
> 
> [snip]
> 
> (Longer Post than intended...my six cents worth....)


Thanks for the great review of the Kingston bracelet! I had a feeling that it was top notch, but it's nice to get confirmation of that. I'm really looking forward to having the finished piece on my wrist!


----------



## powerband

Hey everyone,
My attention span suffers from too much fast-pace cartoons so I couldn't make it past the first 3 pages of this thread. Can someone update me on how I could reserve an mkii Pan Am? Is there a wait list, a reservation list, a general order list, or do I just wait til the watch becomes available for the general public? Can i even still get one? Apologies ahead of time for showing up to the party late in my underpants.


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## JCW1980

powerband said:


> ...Can someone update me on how I could reserve an mkii Pan Am? Is there a wait list, a reservation list, a general order list, or do I just wait til the watch becomes available for the general public?...


It will be possible to get one still. The pre-order (limited to 60 pieces) closed after a couple of days back in late January, but you can still get your name in there by signing up for the mailing list, which should keep you in-the-know about when orders for the remaining (...240 pieces, right? ...I think the total's 300...) will open up. Go to here: www.mkiiwatches.com, and good luck!


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

JCW1980 said:


> It will be possible to get one still. The pre-order (limited to 60 pieces) closed after a couple of days back in late January, but you can still get your name in there by signing up for the mailing list, which should keep you in-the-know about when orders for the remaining (...240 pieces, right? ...I think the total's 300...) will open up. Go to here: www.mkiiwatches.com, and good luck!


The pre-order was sixty watches and filled up fast - The Announcement page for Project GMT says total number will be 250 watches. It says MSRP is $1395 plus shipping/handling. Check it out on MK II website:

Project GMT

I think if you get your name on the list you'll still have a shot, but I'm really guessing on that one. Only one way to see!


----------



## powerband

Hi JCW and OmegaCosmic, thank you both!
Good show and cheers,


----------



## litmus73

Page 34 on
The Watch Magazine - Issue 1


----------



## White Tuna

Trina68 said:


> Like Thieuster's
> but I would like Sapphire no cyclops...but make the roulette wheel ( a must!) as big as possible.
> and I vote for Key West!!!


I am pretty sure saphire and cyclops has been finalized. Date wheel may be designed but I cannot remember if it is roulette wheel or not.


----------



## powerband

litmus73 said:


> Page 34 on
> The Watch Magazine - Issue 1


Thanks for this. Great read.


----------



## Thieuster

+1!

Menno


----------



## Arthur

litmus73 said:


> Page 34 on
> The Watch Magazine - Issue 1


Very nice article and great photos, but whomever wrote it didn't know much about the progression of the Rolex GMT. One glaring mistake is the quote "the 16750 had a quickset hand". Completely false. the 16750 has a quickset date, but the GMT hand operates as a 24 hour hand and is not settable. That did not come about until the next model, the GMT Master II, which has a quickset hand, but not a quickset date.
Love those white dial GMT's though!!


----------



## marchone

GMT-CLIPPER has a nice ring to it.


----------



## tomr

marchone said:


> GMT-CLIPPER has a nice ring to it.


I concur. It combines the function of the watch (GMT) with a tribute to the history of PanAm (Clipper). While the Key West moniker may have an association with the history of the PanAm company, the creation of the original watch was for pilots flying across multiple timezones, hence the GMT name on that watch. I'm sure at some point Bill will likely initiate a poll of possible names, which will provide an opportunity to measure our preferences.


----------



## TheDude

I'm sick of these clever proposed names and I'd hate to have to apologize for the name when showing off the watch.

I vote for keeping it simple.


----------



## White Tuna

TheDude said:


> I'm sick of these clever proposed names and I'd hate to have to apologize for the name when showing off the watch.
> 
> I vote for keeping it simple.


I agree. I want it to say MKII on the dial and then something simple. I think Rolex made a mistake when naming their new watch.


----------



## tomr

White Tuna said:


> I agree. I want it to say MKII on the dial and then something simple. I think Rolex made a mistake when naming their new watch.


If you are referring to their new "SkyDweller", I totally agree. However, keeping it simple does not ensure an unapologetic name, as something simple to one person might sound ridiculous to someone else. With that said, I would be perfectly happy with "MKII GMT" on the dial. Even the Rolex "PanAm" watches just had "GMT Master" on the dial, with the PanAm logo on the case back.


----------



## STEELINOX




----------



## marchone

tomr said:


> If you are referring to their new "SkyDweller", I totally agree. However, keeping it simple does not ensure an unapologetic name, as something simple to one person might sound ridiculous to someone else. With that said, I would be perfectly happy with "MKII GMT" on the dial. Even the Rolex "PanAm" watches just had "GMT Master" on the dial, with the PanAm logo on the case back.


Joseph Stalin was reported to have said, "Leave that cloud-dweller in peace," to an assistant during the Great Terror, when the arrest of Boris Pasternak (author of Dr. Zhivago) was proposed. Like the name or not, or like the watch or not, it is difficult for me to not think of Stalin's famous line when seeing the new ROLEX SKY-DWELLER.


----------



## TheDude

I think the SkyDweller is aptly named. If you're a rich guy who jets constantly around the globe on business, you're basically dwelling in the sky. 

I think for the imagined wearer, it's dead on. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## STEELINOX

TheDude said:


> I think the SkyDweller is aptly named. If you're a rich guy who jets constantly around the globe on business, you're basically dwelling in the sky.
> 
> I think for the imagined wearer, it's dead on.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


Interesting.

But if _I_ owned a $40,000.00 watch, the sky is the last place I'd be spending most of my precious time dwelling !

The name is goofy and is a weak attempt by them boyz in the ROLEX marketing dept to try and capture another kind of buyer; what the definition of that _is_, remains to be seen.

Try checkin in at ROLEXForums.com to see who will be the first to own one, lol !


----------



## tomr

Marketing is the primary objective at Rolex. I can assure you there were no solicitations or polls conducted by Rolex on the forums in selecting the moniker for their new watch. I'm not sure what The Dude constitutes as a "simple" name for the MKII Project GMT watch, but I would have a difficult time accepting SkyDweller in such a category, however apt it may be.


----------



## BigHaole

STEELINOX said:


> Interesting.
> 
> But if _I_ owned a $40,000.00 watch, the sky is the last place I'd be spending most of my precious time dwelling !
> 
> The name is goofy and is a weak attempt by them boyz in the ROLEX marketing dept to try and capture another kind of buyer; what the definition of that _is_, remains to be seen.
> 
> Try checkin in at ROLEXForums.com to see who will be the first to own one, lol !


i don't think the target market for their $40k watch is the guys (and gals) on Rolexforums.com.  That watch would be the ForumDweller.


----------



## BigHaole

marchone said:


> Joseph Stalin was reported to have said, "Leave that cloud-dweller in peace," to an assistant during the Great Terror, when the arrest of Boris Pasternak (author of Dr. Zhivago) was proposed. Like the name or not, or like the watch or not, it is difficult for me to not think of Stalin's famous line when seeing the new ROLEX SKY-DWELLER.


I like it! Let's call the Project GMT "The Stalin" Now THAT would be a story!


----------



## marchone

BigHaole said:


> I like it! Let's call the Project GMT "The Stalin" Now THAT would be a story!


Ah, no ... I was making the suggestion that is where Rolex got its inspiration for the name SKY-DWELLER. It's off topic anyway. Apologies to all.


----------



## White Tuna

MKII SMT*

*Stalin Mean Time


----------



## marchone

THAT was funny.


----------



## STEELINOX

BigHaole said:


> i don't think the target market for their $40k watch is the guys (and gals) on Rolexforums.com.  That watch would be the ForumDweller.


I was referencing ROLEXForums as it would prolly be the first "Forum" to see an actual SKD on one of its members; hijacking now in full swing, batter up !


----------



## BigHaole

STEELINOX said:


> I was referencing ROLEXForums as it would prolly be the first "Forum" to see an actual SKD on one of its members; hijacking now in full swing, batter up !


Just having some fun while we wait for the Project GMT real work to kick off.


----------



## STEELINOX

BigHaole said:


> Just having some fun while we wait for the Project GMT real work to kick off.


Its all good fun !


----------



## Malyel

Playing around with another mock-up suggestion.


----------



## White Tuna

Malyel said:


> Playing around with another mock-up suggestion.


I like it but there will be no cyclops and I would prefer an aged lume.


----------



## Malyel

White Tuna said:


> I like it but there will be no cyclops and I would prefer an aged lume.


Thanks, just sharing my design suggestions.


----------



## Arthur

White Tuna said:


> I like it but there will be no cyclops and I would prefer an aged lume.


Where did you find that there would not be a cyclops? i thought that the cyclops/no cyclops discussion was still open.Maybe i missed a post somewhere back.


----------



## STEELINOX

No cyclops, lug holes, aluminumium inserts, see thru caseback...


----------



## White Tuna

I think that Bill may try but I feel it is essentially dead:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/pan-am-dead-601078-4.html#post4416753

He does say that a couple of posts after that he may try if there is enough interest but I am not sure that there will be the interest or that we will want to delay the watch.


----------



## curt941

No aged lume, not that i'm on the pre-order list, but I think it just looks cheesy.


----------



## Fullers1845

curt941 said:


> No aged lume, not that i'm on the pre-order list, but I think it just looks cheesy.


No dog in the fight either, but I couldn't agree more. Aged lume = trying too hard.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Fullers1845 said:


> No dog in the fight either, but I couldn't agree more. Aged lume = trying too hard.


Agreed! |>


----------



## kkmark

Malyel said:


> Thanks, just sharing my design suggestions.


This is an awesome mock up. I got in on the plank order and this design - with the blue/black, black dial and blue GMT hand - is excellent. Got my vote. Great job Malyel!


----------



## BigHaole

kkmark said:


> This is an awesome mock up. I got in on the plank order and this design - with the blue/black, black dial and blue GMT hand - is excellent. Got my vote. Great job Malyel!


Not much of a homage to the original Pan Am watch, though, so I doubt we'll see it. I do hope that Bill decides to do a series of different color bezels, maybe at $100 each. I'd end up with one of each!


----------



## marchone

Malyel said:


> Thanks, just sharing my design suggestions.


That looks terrific. Cyclops and all. I also second the multiple bezel suggestions.


----------



## Arthur

White Tuna said:


> I think that Bill may try but I feel it is essentially dead:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/pan-am-dead-601078-4.html#post4416753
> 
> He does say that a couple of posts after that he may try if there is enough interest but I am not sure that there will be the interest or that we will want to delay the watch.


i went back and read the thread you linked too. It does look like there are quite a few folks who are "Anti cyclops". From my point of view, if you are going to produce a homage watch, it should be as close to the watch you are "honoring" as possible without running afoul of copyright and patent infringements. If you look back, all of the Rolex Sport models that had date functions except for the SeaDweller, had cyclops.All of the GMT's from the first 6542 Pan Ams to the present day 116710 Ceramics have cyclops.
I like the cyclops, it makes the date way more legible, which to you young guys may not be a consideration, but my old eyes need all the help they can get! As far as delays to the watch, I don't think the addition of a cyclops would cause any unnecessary delays. We shall see. It will be what it will be. No cyclops would certainly not be a deal breaker for me, but I would not be as enthusiastic if the design concept strays too far from the original 6542. Too far and it ceases to be a homage, just another watch.


----------



## White Tuna

Arthur, 

I am not sure if it is in that specific thread but Bill gave a few functional reasons why the cyclops would be hard or maybe even undoable with that crystal. 

But I think the post I linked is after that post.


----------



## STEELINOX

No no no no no cyclops !


----------



## STEELINOX

White Tuna said:


> Arthur,
> 
> I am not sure if it is in that specific thread but Bill gave a few functional reasons why the cyclops would be hard or maybe even undoable with that crystal.
> 
> But I think the post I linked is after that post.


A domed sapphire crystal with a cyclops will escalate the cost substantially.


----------



## ASRSPR

I haven't read Bill's reasons and don't particularly care for a cyclops. Is it because he's hesitant to go the traditional "glued-on lens" route?


----------



## ASRSPR

Arthur said:


> i went back and read the thread you linked too. It does look like there are quite a few folks who are "Anti cyclops". From my point of view, if you are going to produce a homage watch, it should be as close to the watch you are "honoring" as possible without running afoul of copyright and patent infringements. If you look back, all of the Rolex Sport models that had date functions except for the SeaDweller, had cyclops.All of the GMT's from the first 6542 Pan Ams to the present day 116710 Ceramics have cyclops.
> I like the cyclops, it makes the date way more legible, which to you young guys may not be a consideration, but my old eyes need all the help they can get! As far as delays to the watch, I don't think the addition of a cyclops would cause any unnecessary delays. We shall see. It will be what it will be. No cyclops would certainly not be a deal breaker for me, but I would not be as enthusiastic if the design concept strays too far from the original 6542. Too far and it ceases to be a homage, just another watch.


Just to reiterate a point I made earlier: there are no possible patent infringements with a watch first released in 1960s.


----------



## cpotters

ASRSPR said:


> I haven't read Bill's reasons and don't particularly care for a cyclops. Is it because he's hesitant to go the traditional "glued-on lens" route?


It is a given that Bill Yao is a smart guy and a passionate builder of his watch designs. We all know that both he - and we - learned a lot about process with the Kingston experience. The best perspective on this cyclops issue might start with a question: how do you feel about significantly increasing the statistical probabilities of big delays and/or cost increases with this project?

As has been discussed before, if we're going to have a cyclops, it should be at least 2.5x magnification (to Arthur's point about old eyes): anything less is just decorative and not worth the effort or expense.

A great optical cyclops can be glued on to a finished watch OR incorporated into a premade saphire crystal from the manufacturer and positioned into the case during assemby. In each case this would bring the assembly of these watches to its knees - just as we saw with Bill having to grind down each Kingston stem to have it seat properly in the crown assembly. Can you imagine the scrap rate on the PERFECT alignment of 250 glued-on lenses that super-magnify when they are positioned badly over the date window? If we get the highest quality crystals custom made and prefitted by the casemaker, the expense for that precision would be quite large.

Don't rule anything out, because MkII haven't ruled it out, either. I just would like to see this watch be the feather in Bill's cap: I don't want this project to become a millstone around his neck.


----------



## Thieuster

cpotters said:


> It is a given that Bill Yao is a smart guy and a passionate builder of his watch designs. We all know that both he - and we - learned a lot about process with the Kingston experience. The best perspective on this cyclops issue might start with a question: how do you feel about significantly increasing the statistical probabilities of big delays and/or cost increases with this project?
> 
> As has been discussed before, if we're going to have a cyclops, it should be at least 2.5x magnification (to Arthur's point about old eyes): anything less is just decorative and not worth the effort or expense.
> 
> A great optical cyclops can be glued on to a finished watch OR incorporated into a premade saphire crystal from the manufacturer and positioned into the case during assemby. In each case this would bring the assembly of these watches to its knees - just as we saw with Bill having to grind down each Kingston stem to have it seat properly in the crown assembly. Can you imagine the scrap rate on the PERFECT alignment of 250 glued-on lenses that super-magnify when they are positioned badly over the date window? If we get the highest quality crystals custom made and prefitted by the casemaker, the expense for that precision would be quite large.
> 
> Don't rule anything out, because MkII haven't ruled it out, either. I just would like to see this watch be the feather in Bill's cap: I don't want this project to become a millstone around his neck.


Well spoken! Thanks!

Menno


----------



## marchone

I personally do not care for cyclopses either. But a homage is a homage.

Otherwise, it's something new.

This really is a passionate group.


----------



## White Tuna

marchone said:


> I personally do not care for cyclopses either. But a homage is a homage.
> 
> Otherwise, it's something new.
> 
> This really is a passionate group.


Is it? I do not think it is that clear cut at all.


----------



## tomr

I like the cyclops, as it represents a characteristic of the watch the MKII Project GMT is paying homage to; and, is an advantage to me, personally, for readability. But, I'll be surprised if we see it on this watch. That is because it will likely have the same domed sapphire crystal that is on the Kingston, and I cannot recall any watch with a domed crystal having a cyclops. Even if one could be successfully applied, the date may appear distorted due to the different height of the cyclops as it slopes down from left to right. So, unless Bill uses a different, (read flat) crystal, I'm betting we will not see a cyclops on this watch.


----------



## BigHaole

I would like a cyclops, but it's by no means a deal-breaker for me. My preferences would be, in order:
Interchangeable bezel inserts
A better GMT movement (I like the way the Rolex movements worked with quick set hour hand, rather than GMT hand). I don't expect this one, but it never hurts to ask.
Cyclops


----------



## STEELINOX

BigHaole said:


> I would like a cyclops, but it's by no means a deal-breaker for me. My preferences would be, in order:
> Interchangeable bezel inserts
> A* better GMT movement (I like the way the Rolex movements worked with quick set hour hand, rather than GMT hand*). I don't expect this one, but it never hurts to ask.
> Cyclops


Great point, most definately ~ !


----------



## Arthur

ASRSPR said:


> Just to reiterate a point I made earlier: there are no possible patent infringements with a watch first released in 1960s.


I wasn't talking about the GMT in partucular in reference to the patent/copyright infringement, but homage watches in general. There have been some homage watches produced by other companies that unfortunately have run afoul of patents that still were in affect. I'm sure you could duplicate the Rolex 6542 exactly, sans the Crown (on the dial), The words Rolex, GMT Master, Oyster Perpetual and the Pan AM name and logo on the back, without any problems. There may be a few other things that are still covered by Rolex, but the basic watch, dial and hands, bezel/insert, bracelet/endlinks would be OK


----------



## Axelay2003

Malyel said:


> Thanks, just sharing my design suggestions.


IMPRESSIVE!


----------



## Semuta

STEELINOX said:


> Great point, most definately ~ !


Considering that the original's GMT hand was locked to the hour hand, and even the 1675 didn't have an independently adjustable 24hr hand, I don't think it's that big of a deal.


----------



## STEELINOX

Semuta said:


> Considering that the original's GMT hand was locked to the hour hand, and even the 1675 didn't have an independently adjustable 24hr hand, *I don't think it's that big of a deal.*


Will be sure and fit something for you that is in the archaic movmt era shuld Bill's new GMT have a modern independent hand set movmt included, alrighty ~ !


----------



## Arthur

While a independently adjustable hour hand would be nice, the 2893-2 has an independently adjustable GMT hand. AFAIK there are no commercially available mechanical movements with the capabilities of a independently adjustable hour hand. Every one that I know uses an in house movement. I did a little reading and it looks like the ones I came up with were the Rolex GMT Master II, The Omega 300 GMT, JLC GMT or Hometime, Carl F. Bucherer Travelgraph and TravelTec and the Grand Seiko Spring Drive GMT. I'm sure there are more out there, some with date windows like the UN Big Date GMT, etc. However, all of the above watches are from a thousand to several thousand dollars more expensive than the projected price of the PanAm GMT. I really don't see any other movement within the price range of the PanAm other than the ETA 2893-2.


----------



## nuovorecord

Arthur said:


> While a independently adjustable hour hand would be nice, the 2893-2 has an independently adjustable GMT hand. AFAIK there are no commercially available mechanical movements with the capabilities of a independently adjustable hour hand. Every one that I know uses an in house movement. I did a little reading and it looks like the ones I came up with were the Rolex GMT Master II, The Omega 300 GMT, JLC GMT or Hometime, Carl F. Bucherer Travelgraph and TravelTec and the Grand Seiko Spring Drive GMT. I'm sure there are more out there, some with date windows like the UN Big Date GMT, etc. However, all of the above watches are from a thousand to several thousand dollars more expensive than the projected price of the PanAm GMT. I really don't see any other movement within the price range of the PanAm other than the ETA 2893-2.


I've played with a UN Big Date GMT and can confirm that it has an independent hour hand as well as the others on your list.

What grade 2893-2 is intended for the Pan Am? My Steinhart GMT has an Elabore 2893-2 and I can't complain about it; did Bill use a higher level 2824 in the Kingston?


----------



## Arthur

nuovorecord said:


> I've played with a UN Big Date GMT and can confirm that it has an independent hour hand as well as the others on your list.
> 
> What grade 2893-2 is intended for the Pan Am? My Steinhart GMT has an Elabore 2893-2 and I can't complain about it; did Bill use a higher level 2824 in the Kingston?


I had a UN Big Date GMT, and it is one of the watches that I could kick myself in the hindparts for ever selling. i have been looking for a good used one for over a year now to no avail. I had the 40mm model, not the 42mm. Great watch

As far as the movement in the Kingston, here are the specs:


ETA 2836-2 (Elabore grade/Rhodium plated), highly decorated (rotor features Côtes de Genève, decorated bridges), Incabloc shock protection, hack setting, automatic with manual winding capability.


----------



## White Tuna

Some names:

MKII Classic GMT or MKII GMT Classic
MKII GMT LE (LE stands for Limited Edition)


----------



## nuovorecord

Arthur said:


> I had a UN Big Date GMT, and it is one of the watches that I could kick myself in the hindparts for ever selling. i have been looking for a good used one for over a year now to no avail. I had the 40mm model, not the 42mm. Great watch
> 
> As far as the movement in the Kingston, here are the specs:
> ETA 2836-2 (Elabore grade/Rhodium plated), highly decorated (rotor features Côtes de Genève, decorated bridges), Incabloc shock protection, hack setting, automatic with manual winding capability.


Thanks much for the response!


----------



## SgtClaymore

curt941 said:


> No aged lume, not that i'm on the pre-order list, but I think it just looks cheesy.


I'm gonna have to agree with you on this!


----------



## BigHaole

Any idea when the formal project discussion threads will be started?


----------



## Arthur

BigHaole said:


> Any idea when the formal project discussion threads will be started?


Funny, I was scrolling through the posts getting down to this one and I was thinking the same thing. It would be nice for Bill to start another thread with either a series of polls, or real input only.


----------



## TheDude

Arthur said:


> Funny, I was scrolling through the posts getting down to this one and I was thinking the same thing. It would be nice for Bill to start another thread with either a series of polls, or real input only.


According to Bill's blog post, the formal design thread was scheduled for late March. We're not too far from that, so I would expect it soon.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## Yao

TheDude said:


> According to Bill's blog post, the formal design thread was scheduled for late March. We're not too far from that, so I would expect it soon.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


I have to take a look at this thread. To be honest I haven't had time to read it and now its gi-normous! But I will take a look at this thread and see where eveyone's head is at before we open formal discussions.

Sorry for the late replies.....if you hadn't read it in a previous thread I had computer problems with one of my PCs at home. Its limping along now and not giving me the BSOD anymore.


----------



## powerband

Great, Bill. Looking forward to the formal discussion.
Lots of great input here already!


----------



## RTea

Man I missed this pre-order and found out about the Kingston way late. I'm waiting for the Kingston II pre-order now .

This one looks great and I'm definitely going to follow the design process!


----------



## aviate

Hadn't been following this thread much...for me the cyclops is pretty important functionally and I feel that it will add to the watch stylistically. I also don't understand the comments regarding delays. After collecting for a while now I would much rather wait another 6 months (or more) and get the right watch then get a watch right now. Maybe those that want the cyclops have to accept that this may incur a delay (for them) and make a choice from there.


----------



## Yao

Sorry still going through all the posts. I am on pg 3 so far. Its slow going because i am trying to digest the ideas put forward and out then into a larger context to get a feel for the overall direction. If it takes too long for em to finish the thread i will just start the discussion and you will have to forgive/ and of course let me know if i gauge the mood towards a feature incorrectly.


----------



## chris7013

Bill... Hey Bill!! can we focus on the 300? Just sayin. 
Chris


----------



## TheDude

chris7013 said:


> Bill... Hey Bill!! can we focus on the 300? Just sayin.
> Chris


The 300 already has an official design thread. This is just to get to the point of a proper design thread.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## yjfang

Almost May and we are still not formally talking about the GMT project. o|


----------



## BigHaole

yjfang said:


> Almost May and we are still not formally talking about the GMT project. o|


Almost June.


----------



## cpotters

BigHaole said:


> Almost June.


No worries. We totally knew that the backlog of Kingstons, plus the upcoming projects like the SM300 (on deck first) and the sapphire-bezel Paradive (in production) were going to take complete priority for a few months if Bill was ever going to cut through the logjam and catch up to actually MAKE these darn GMTs without having the same level of frustration (and wait) that tore through the forum with the Kingston. Paradive announced this morning (limited quantities) and Kingstons are being delivered. We are getting closer. Patience, as they say, ....


----------



## Yao

Well we are turning the corner....

Here is my reply to the posters waiting for the discussion to open:

New Models and Ongoing Projects

Project GMT: Name Discussion (opening June 5)

Frankly I won't be able to find the time to read all the posts in this thread so please re-post your relevant suggestions in the thread opening June 5. We are putting together an e-mail list that will also let everyone else know the discussion is opening.


----------



## gonzomantis

cpotters said:


> No worries. We totally knew that the backlog of Kingstons, plus the upcoming projects like the SM300 (on deck first) and the sapphire-bezel Paradive (in production) were going to take complete priority for a few months if Bill was ever going to cut through the logjam and catch up to actually MAKE these darn GMTs without having the same level of frustration (and wait) that tore through the forum with the Kingston. Paradive announced this morning (limited quantities) and Kingstons are being delivered. We are getting closer. Patience, as they say, ....


I wish I could think of the waiting, etc. for the Kingston in the past tense.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Well. After seeing the Nassau with the 7mm crown, I think the 'Project GMT' should have a 6mm screw-down crown. The 7mm still looks BIG on the Nassau. :think:


----------



## yjfang

I am really hoping for a white or cream colored dial. I think it's time that MKII has a white dial offering and the vintage GMT would be the perfect candidate.


----------



## TheDude

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> Well. After seeing the Nassau with the 7mm crown, I think the 'Project GMT' should have a 6mm screw-down crown. The 7mm still looks BIG on the Nassau. :think:


YES. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

I hope we're not stuck with using the Kingston tube, which I suspect contributed to the oversized crown on the Nassau.

It should be the size and profile of the Vantage crown. Perhaps even lower.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

(Posting this in the correct thread)

:think: I was hoping for the white and gilt dial, with a black or navy blue outline around the gilt,between it and the white dial-face. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what develops....

And then there is this from Malyel-









Is this a fully-lumed dial? Thanks, Malyel. Although I have reservations about the 'Havana' name, this has some interesting appeal.

Perhaps a smaller crown than this would look better- and a 'Pepsi' bezel also. Navy blue instead of black?


----------



## TheDude

Putting this here but it's in response to the root beer lust in the naming thread. FWIW, root beer GMTs are some of the lowest priced Rolex GMTs. I don't say this lightly as I know the cost increase isn't trivial, but a root beer 1675 can be had for ~3x the cost of the PanAm.

Look here.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/2076...+with+root+beer+nipple+dial+with+faded+insert

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ASRSPR

TheDude said:


> Putting this here but it's in response to the root beer lust in the naming thread. FWIW, root beer GMTs are some of the lowest priced Rolex GMTs. I don't say this lightly as I know the cost increase isn't trivial, but a root beer 1675 can be had for ~3x the cost of the PanAm.
> 
> Look here.
> 
> Vintage Rolex Market: Rolex GMT Two Tone 1675 with root beer nipple dial with faded insert
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


That doesn't look as gracefully aged as other vintages Rolexes. I guess it's no good to slowly deteriorate toward brown when you start with that color in the first place.

In any case, the price multiplier vs the original is of course even lower for the Project 300, at about 1.45x.


----------



## STEELINOX

TheDude said:


> Putting this here but it's in response to the root beer lust in the naming thread. FWIW, root beer GMTs are some of the lowest priced Rolex GMTs. I don't say this lightly as I know the cost increase isn't trivial, but a root beer 1675 can be had for ~3x the cost of the PanAm.
> 
> Look here.
> 
> Vintage Rolex Market: Rolex GMT Two Tone 1675 with root beer nipple dial with faded insert
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2





ASRSPR said:


> That doesn't look as gracefully aged as other vintages Rolexes. I guess it's no good to slowly deteriorate toward brown when you start with that color in the first place.
> 
> In any case, the price multiplier vs the original is of course even lower for the Project 300, at about 1.45x.


As a known fact, two tone anything ROLEX makes usually nose dives in price on 2nd hand or grey markets, and does not discriminate as to when it was mfg'd; so vintage as well as a GMTc made last year, loses pretty much a significant hit in value...

This vintage piece [below] is still nice (for the price)...:-!

Whether, Mr. Yao cuts out some Root Beer versions of this project, its pretty much something that wuld be produced in low numbers but still command higher pricing reflective of the "jewelry" value that 2t's get.

If he makes em, they will be bought, make no mistake that they wont.

People buy everything.

It wuld be nice if he makes a run of 100 special Root Beers and wohoo, maybe, they are priced right in at $3500 [without bracelet], the [very same] price of this vintage piece below; seems like a winner to me !










This is *ROLEXForums member Puffy's GMT*. [below image]

It sure's sweet !










Here's his thread> https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=239624


----------



## cpotters

TheDude said:


> Putting this here but it's in response to the root beer lust in the naming thread. FWIW, root beer GMTs are some of the lowest priced Rolex GMTs. I don't say this lightly as I know the cost increase isn't trivial, but a root beer 1675 can be had for ~3x the cost of the PanAm.
> 
> Look here.
> 
> Vintage Rolex Market: Rolex GMT Two Tone 1675 with root beer nipple dial with faded insert
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


I wasn't sure when I read the threads, but when I first looked carefully, it looked like that when some folks on the forum referenced the "Root Beer" variations, what they were really referring to were the "Coca Cola" bezels (also known as the "Pussy Galore" GMT because it's the watch that Pussy Galore (played by the lovely Honor Blackman ) in Goldfinger. I could be wrong, but I know that when Bill talked about making the second configuration, it was this color scheme - with both a black or white dial available - that he was referring to:

The Early Coke Bezel GMT (Pussy Galore) - http://10pastten.com/itemimages/TA374 -3741.JPG

The Early Pepsi Bezel GMT (PanAm) - http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_btTQUcKECtk/SGuQG0776GI/AAAAAAAAAlU/CYm0kmxODYU/s320/CIMG4877.JPG

And Lastly, 
The White-Dialed GMT (Allegedly, the PanAm Executive GMT for the home office desk jockeys) - ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

For those of you who, like me, appreciate the good looks of the white dial but haven't been able to back its historical accuracy 100%, this was the most convincing research I ever saw on the white dial (half Italian/half English). Just fun to look at.....
STEFANO MAZZARIOL BLOG: Rolex GMT-MASTER ref .6542 ALBINO

Also, here's the link to James Dowling's comments on the White-dialed GMT: I figure he knows more about vintage Rolexes than anybody, so I'm not about to argue with him
White Dial GMT-Master - TURF - The Ultimate Rolex Forum


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## TheDude

That pussy galore is blue and red. In fact, I don't believe there was a black and red bezel on the first reference (6542).

http://stefanomazzariol.blogspot.com/2009/07/rolex-gmt-master-ref-6542-articolo-in.html?m=1

You are right though, black and red is Coke. Root Beers actually had a few colors for bezels. Some solid, some mixed in various shades.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## cpotters

AH, that figures. As I have occasionally stated on posts before, I am world-class colorblind: sometimes in the bakelite bezels that dark blue reads black to me. In court I would make an unreliable witness.


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## racerx454

*My preference*



Yao said:


> Well I guess this is as good time as any for you guys to list your "ideal" (i.e. wish list) for this watch. I will then take the information and see if its feasible and/or start compiling a survey if necessary before the project begins in earnest.


+1 for a cream dial and pepsi 24-hour acrylic and luminescent bezel and red GMT hand.
-1 for cyclops magnifier.

-Kevin-


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## cpotters

*Re: My preference*



racerx454 said:


> +1 for a cream dial and pepsi 24-hour acrylic and luminescent bezel and red GMT hand.
> -1 for cyclops magnifier.
> 
> -Kevin-


 The only thing you're missing is the "roulette" date wheel to make it perfect. What about text on the dial? Black or Gilt like the Kingston? Gilt or Rhodium hands? Just sayin'.....


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## Arthur

*Re: My preference*



cpotters said:


> The only thing you're missing is the "roulette" date wheel to make it perfect. What about text on the dial? Black or Gilt like the Kingston? Gilt or Rhodium hands? Just sayin'.....


You are spot on! Roulette Date wheel. I think I would prefer gilt lettering/ hands. I don't know how it would stand out on the white dial, with the Kingston black dial, in certain lighting angles, the gilt really sort of disappears. There are a lot of white dial dress watches out there with gold indices and gold hands, and most of them look really nice, and elegant. I always considered the GMT more of a dressy sport watch, not a beat it all to hell watch like the subs and SD's of the past.


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## Tetraflop

Sorry,wrong thread.
Dietmar


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## 66Cooper

We spoke at last years NYC GTG about the white/cream dial with gilt. I REALLY do not think its a good idea. The dial would look totally black at angles. When the sun its my Kingston, its absolutely stunning but that on a white dial, I just cant see it. Like the later white Explorer II's, I think a white/cream with black print would be cool.


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## White Tuna

STEELINOX said:


> As a known fact, two tone anything ROLEX makes usually nose dives in price on 2nd hand or grey markets, and does not discriminate as to when it was mfg'd; so vintage as well as a GMTc made last year, loses pretty much a significant hit in value...
> 
> This vintage piece [below] is still nice (for the price)...:-!
> 
> Whether, Mr. Yao cuts out some Root Beer versions of this project, its pretty much something that wuld be produced in low numbers but still command higher pricing reflective of the "jewelry" value that 2t's get.
> 
> If he makes em, they will be bought, make no mistake that they wont.
> 
> People buy everything.
> 
> It wuld be nice if he makes a run of 100 special Root Beers and wohoo, maybe, they are priced right in at $3500 [without bracelet], the [very same] price of this vintage piece below; seems like a winner to me !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is *ROLEXForums member Puffy's GMT*. [below image]
> 
> It sure's sweet !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's his thread> https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=239624


That Root Beer Dial GMT has little interest to me. I think this is much better:


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## STEELINOX

Awaiting a "New Age" in GMT lore !

I know its not a GMT, itsa Zephyr, but the pilot is cool...

[imagery nabbed from my buddy Jake]


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## Watchamacallit

STEELINOX said:


> I know its not a GMT, itsa Zephyr, but the pilot is cool...


That's not a pilot, that's a male model. And the ad copy is embarrassingly cheesy.


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## STEELINOX

Watchamacallit said:


> That's not a pilot, that's a male model. And the ad copy is embarrassingly cheesy.


Oh my !


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## JCW1980

Watchamacallit said:


> That's not a pilot, that's a male model. And the ad copy is embarrassingly cheesy.


I don't know...the caption in the picture says he's a pilot...

I find the prices most interesting though. $535 for a gold Rolex or $250 for the two-tone..._man_ I wish I had a time machine!!!


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## Watchamacallit

JCW1980 said:


> I don't know...the caption in the picture says he's a pilot...


I was wrong. That's a real pilot, Capt. Charles Blair.

AVIATION POSTCARD CLUB


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## Dragoon

Me too! Forget the Rolex tho....well...ok...get the Rolex too! And snag a few other goodies while you are at it!



JCW1980 said:


> I don't know...the caption in the picture says he's a pilot...
> 
> I find the prices most interesting though. $535 for a gold Rolex or $250 for the two-tone..._man_ I wish I had a time machine!!!


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