# What IWC do to their 7750



## Watchstudent (Dec 29, 2013)

So in another thread I was given a link to an article from 1998 that said IWC would get the 7750 in parts and change lots of bits with their own parts and then assemble it themselves. I was just curious if this level of modification still happened in 2014 so I emailed IWC to ask, they gave a very nice response one day later and it seems the modification is not quite as thorough, IWC Portuguese Auto Chrono is still lovely though.

Thank you for your request and your interest in IWC Schaffhausen.
ETA supplies IWC Schaffhausen with fully assembled movements, manufactured to our standards and specifications. All the modifications required by IWC have been integrated into ETA's production processes, in order to ensure that these movements comply with IWC's high-quality standards. The movements are subjected to IWC's comprehensive and exacting testing procedures in the IWC laboratories. This means that the movements have to achieve a precision of 0/+7 per day, ensuring that the watches do not run behind and only run ahead by a maximum of 7 seconds per day.

IWC Schaffhausen has several of its own calibre families featuring IWC-manufactured movements at its disposal. In addition to the existing automatic und hand-wound calibres, IWC launched its first in-house chronograph movement in 2007. The range of products from IWC is clearly segmented and runs from sports to classic watches priced between CHF 4,500 and CHF 750,000. IWC-manufactured calibres are mainly used to power watch models in the higher segments.

We regard an IWC watch as an all-round work of art. Together with the movement, form and design, selected exclusive materials and outstanding ease of use combine to ensure that our timepieces represent a precision product of the highest quality across all price categories.

Moreover, we hope that we will soon have the pleasure of welcoming you in one of our exclusive IWC Boutiques, where our sales associates will be delighted to assist you in discovering our new collection. We would refer you to the IWC Schaffhausen official websitewww.iwc.com, where you will find a comprehensive list of all our IWC Schaffhausen.
We hope this information was of assistance and we remain at your disposal to provide any further information you may require.



Kind regards from Schaffhausen


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## csm (Apr 11, 2011)

in other words, they just get an assebled movement with their logo from Eta. for the records, i have a 3536 with an ETA movement, and also a 3719 with ETA, i bought both when IWC used to practice decent prices. And also a portugues 7 days with in house movement. I dont know if iwc is right or wrong using eta movements at their lower price watches, i just think that nowadays they are charnging a lot of money for a watch with a standard eta, even beeing the highgrade movements. 

regards,
Cesar


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## NightScar (Sep 4, 2008)

I haven't been keeping up with it but this issue came a few years ago because Swatch Group planned to stop supplying parts and companies could only order the movements already built?

At least that's how I remember it. 

I don't have a problem with my IWCs having ETAs but with how much IWC charges for them, just imagine if they started making them with in-house movements? Their entry-level watches would start at ~$10k and likely lose a lot of customers?


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## Kluber (Aug 9, 2014)

Watchstudent said:


> So in another thread I was given a link to an article from 1998 that said IWC would get the 7750 in parts and change lots of bits with their own parts and then assemble it themselves. I was just curious if this level of modification still happened in 2014 so I emailed IWC to ask, they gave a very nice response one day later and it seems the modification is not quite as thorough, IWC Portuguese Auto Chrono is still lovely though.
> 
> Thank you for your request and your interest in IWC Schaffhausen.
> ETA supplies IWC Schaffhausen with fully assembled movements, manufactured to our standards and specifications. All the modifications required by IWC have been integrated into ETA's production processes, in order to ensure that these movements comply with IWC's high-quality standards. The movements are subjected to IWC's comprehensive and exacting testing procedures in the IWC laboratories. This means that the movements have to achieve a precision of 0/+7 per day, ensuring that the watches do not run behind and only run ahead by a maximum of 7 seconds per day.
> ...


They stopped modifying the movement themselves some time ago. (As is evident in their reply).


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## evets (Apr 9, 2014)

[QUOTE] All the modifications required by IWC have been integrated into ETA's production processes, in order to ensure that these movements comply with IWC's high-quality standards.[/QUOTE]

as in their reply, ETA already makes the modifications per IWC requirements. still is a modified eta movement not found i standard eta.


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## Robertus (Mar 22, 2006)

I am still to see a straight declaration on wether the IWC-suggested modified movements are delivered only to IWC or these modifications are now introduced throughout the watch industry in their Chronometer/Top grade movements: "All the modifications required by IWC have been integrated into ETA's production processes..." is not straight enough.

The other thing is that one of the Achilles points of the 7750, the brake of the chrono hours counter is modified by Omega very successfully and - as I was told - by far the best modification on this point. I wonder wether these are introduced in 7750-s to be delivered outside Omega - e. g. to IWC?

One of the IWC modifications on the 7750 (back in the nineties) was the introduction of a weaker mainspring, to achieve a lower wear and tear of the turning parts, thus resulting in longer life-span of the movement and less frequent servicing. I wonder what are the exact modifications on the 7750 still used for IWC supply?


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## Kluber (Aug 9, 2014)

Yeah and as Robertus pointed out, it's not clear what modifications they now ask to be changed on ebauche movements. Ever since they stopped modifying it themselves, they haven't been very clear on what is changed. 

Thus, I wouldn't put much stock into the mods on their current eta models. Not that the watches aren't well made and the movement isn't reliable (because it is) but just that the modifications may not be all that significant.


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## Fantasio (Apr 5, 2009)

When did they change to fully assembled movements?



Kluber said:


> Yeah and as Robertus pointed out, it's not clear what modifications they now ask to be changed on ebauche movements. Ever since they stopped modifying it themselves, they haven't been very clear on what is changed.
> 
> Thus, I wouldn't put much stock into the mods on their current eta models. Not that the watches aren't well made and the movement isn't reliable (because it is) but just that the modifications may not be all that significant.


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## Kluber (Aug 9, 2014)

Fantasio said:


> When did they change to fully assembled movements?


I believe it was in/around 2007 when they stopped modifying ebauche movements themselves, but I could be wrong about that. Perhaps others will correct me on here if this is not right.

IWC has stated that eta now does the modifications for them but has never identified what those specifically are (to my knowledge anyway) outside of certain finishing of the movement and a general "adhering to IWC specifications". All that said, 7750 is a very durable and reliable movement, so I don't know if it really matters.


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

I would love it if a watchmaker would tear down an IWC cased 7750 and provide conclusive feedback on this subject, like has been done with Rolex and others.


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## NightScar (Sep 4, 2008)

Kluber said:


> I believe it was in/around 2007 when they stopped modifying ebauche movements themselves, but I could be wrong about that. Perhaps others will correct me on here if this is not right.
> 
> IWC has stated that eta now does the modifications for them but has never identified what those specifically are (to my knowledge anyway) outside of certain finishing of the movement and a general "adhering to IWC specifications". All that said, 7750 is a very durable and reliable movement, so I don't know if it really matters.


I think it's a few years later than that. I got my Portoguese Chrono in ~2009 and I believe mine still had the IWC-modified movement. I remember talking about that in this forum back then too. Just can't quite recall the exact details but back then, Swatch Group was barely planning to halt their distribution of eta parts. There were articles and discussions on looking for alternative movement supplier and other just going he in-house route (not just IWC but all the companies that used eta).


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## Kluber (Aug 9, 2014)

NightScar said:


> I think it's a few years later than that. I got my Portoguese Chrono in ~2009 and I believe mine still had the IWC-modified movement. I remember talking about that in this forum back then too. Just can't quite recall the exact details but back then, Swatch Group was barely planning to halt their distribution of eta parts. There were articles and discussions on looking for alternative movement supplier and other just going he in-house route (not just IWC but all the companies that used eta).


You're probably right. Thanks for posting...I couldn't recall exactly when either and don't want to misinform.

Now that I think about it, didn't tremors of swatch group starting to restrict their distribution start in 2010? That would fit more with your 2009 modded IWC timeframe.

Of course, now I feel like I am just throwing out years ; ). I'm sure it would be easy to google, I recall the IWC online site forums having some discussion on it too.


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## Qwatch (Aug 29, 2014)

Would indeed be interesting as I guess all options of investigation have been explored and since Watchstudent has contacted IWC as well (thanks for the effort btw) only thing left will probably be "reverse engineering" by an expert.

Regarding their pricing I guess in the end they will be a bit overpriced in comparison to other brands. They still make awsome watches imho and I would surely get one, though from a grey dealer.


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## Fantasio (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks. Just wanted to know where to aim when/if going after a 3717-01, would prefer IWC-mod movement.



NightScar said:


> I think it's a few years later than that. I got my Portoguese Chrono in ~2009 and I believe mine still had the IWC-modified movement.


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## slashd0t (Nov 14, 2009)

This is the topic that gets constantly beaten over the head when it shouldn't.. It's really simple.. ETA ADOPTED IWC's recommendation on their top grade 7750 and they do EVERYTHING and ship it complete to IWC.. The only thing that's different in this 7750 vs any other top grade 7750 is the rotor.. The ETA TOP GRADE 7750 has adopted IWC's recommendations as IWC has specified in their letter.

This should be the end of it. No need to do side by side comparisons.. Same goes for the 2892-A2 ...


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## Robertus (Mar 22, 2006)

slashd0t said:


> This is the topic that gets constantly beaten over the head when it shouldn't.. It's really simple.. ETA ADOPTED IWC's recommendation on their top grade 7750 and they do EVERYTHING and ship it complete to IWC.. The only thing that's different in this 7750 vs any other top grade 7750 is the rotor.. The ETA TOP GRADE 7750 has adopted IWC's recommendations as IWC has specified in their letter.
> 
> This should be the end of it. No need to do side by side comparisons.. Same goes for the 2892-A2 ...


I thought that this is how it works  if not, IWC would have declared that.
The switch to use completely ETA-assembled movements was in 2007 to my best knowledge too - I seem to remember an interview of the late Michael Sarp who has declared it. I think this appeared in the german periodical "Chronos".


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## Lawfor (Nov 28, 2014)

slashd0t said:


> This is the topic that gets constantly beaten over the head when it shouldn't.. It's really simple.. ETA ADOPTED IWC's recommendation on their top grade 7750 and they do EVERYTHING and ship it complete to IWC.. The only thing that's different in this 7750 vs any other top grade 7750 is the rotor.. The ETA TOP GRADE 7750 has adopted IWC's recommendations as IWC has specified in their letter.
> 
> This should be the end of it. No need to do side by side comparisons.. Same goes for the 2892-A2 ...


No disrespect but that doesn't tell us much. I am quite interested in the specific technical details of the "IWC-grade" ETA movements - what parts are upgraded, etc. This, however, still seems to be quite mysterious.

Follow me on IG @ lawfor1


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## csm (Apr 11, 2011)

Brother forget it, when you buy it, youare buying an eta..... Top grade but an eta. Its a reliable and work horse mechanism but you can have the same in cheapest watches. Of course that i'm talking about the ones without any hard modification like double chronos, perpetual calendars etc...

Regards


Cesar


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## watchhound (Apr 16, 2006)

cesar scarambone said:


> Brother forget it, when you buy it, youare buying an eta..... Top grade but an eta. Its a reliable and work horse mechanism but you can have the same in cheapest watches. Of course that i'm talking about the ones without any hard modification like double chronos, perpetual calendars etc...
> 
> Regards
> 
> Cesar


That's sort of what I assumed to. Other watch companies are pretty transparent regarding techincal details of the movements, wish IWC was.

I quite like the new 2014 time-only Aquatimer but would like to know more about what is under the hood.


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## RickS72 (Jul 11, 2011)

Lawfor said:


> No disrespect but that doesn't tell us much. I am quite interested in the specific technical details of the "IWC-grade" ETA movements - what parts are upgraded, etc. This, however, still seems to be quite mysterious.


Hi lawfor1, attached is a link to a 1998 article in Uhrenjournal which is often quoted when describing in detail what IWC claim they did to an ETA 7750 movement to make it into an IWC-grade movement. Apparently, similar upgrades were done to the 2892-a2.

Uhrenjournal (Austria) on IWC's Use of ETA Base Movements

However, since around 2007 ETA stopped supplying movements in kit form and now supply built-up movements to IWC to their (IWC's) specification, as stated in slashd0t's post.

The only caveat I would add is that some people are not fully convinced this is the case. Being a trusting soul, I'm prepared to accept movements are supplied to IWC to their spec!!


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## Lawfor (Nov 28, 2014)

Thanks. It would be nice if IWC would be clear about the current status and details. 


Follow me on IG @ lawfor1


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## Robertus (Mar 22, 2006)

I would be very, very happy if someone could specify from cca. what case number are ETA movements not assembled by IWC? I would estimate cca. 325xxxx but I could be wrong on this. First, we would have to know when IWC-assembled movements "ran out" (I'm mainly interested in ETA-Valjoux 7750-s) and second, we would have to know what case numbers were used just about that time.
Every good info is highly welcome!
Thx,
Robert


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## Ajax_Drakos (Aug 20, 2014)

NightScar said:


> I haven't been keeping up with it but this issue came a few years ago because Swatch Group planned to stop supplying parts and companies could only order the movements already built?
> 
> At least that's how I remember it.
> 
> I don't have a problem with my IWCs having ETAs but with how much IWC charges for them, just imagine if they started making them with in-house movements? Their entry-level watches would start at ~$10k and likely lose a lot of customers?


I agree.

This will run about $7k?









This will run about $1,200.









I've seen the finishing on the Portuguese, and I'll grant that it's better than what's on the Hamilton, but it's not THAT much better.

IWC makes some decent watches, but their prices on watches with pretty standard movements in them have become rather ridiculous.


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## diaby2afc (Jan 25, 2012)

IWC (12.5mm) is also thinner than the Hamilton (15-16mm)


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## Ajax_Drakos (Aug 20, 2014)

diaby2afc said:


> IWC (12.5mm) is also thinner than the Hamilton (15-16mm)


Yes, that's a valid point. That size difference certainly is important because a thinner watch generally is much more comfortable.


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## WatchInStyle (Nov 27, 2014)

Ajax_Drakos said:


> I've seen the finishing on the Portuguese, and I'll grant that it's better than what's on the Hamilton, but it's not THAT much better.


Ajax, I'll have to disagree with you on that. IWC has some of the highest materials and components competence in the whole watch industry, on the highest level with only a few other makers. Apart from a caliber, the way and preciseness a case and dial are refined is the really tough thing, and what differentiates a good watch from a great watch.

If you look at the Hamilton (which is definitely a fine timepiece, not doubting that), and compare that to a 3714 in your own hand, you'll see a huge difference in the details. As an example, check the jags of the crown: extremely filigree on the Portuguese. Same goes for the hands - it's tough to do a heat-blued central second dial that thin - bear in mind you have to keep it between approx. 295 and 305°C for just the right amount of time. Then the 3d minute indexes compared to printed minute indexes.

All that might seem like minor details, but those are the details that require a MUCH higher material and processing competence.


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## slashd0t (Nov 14, 2009)

WatchInStyle said:


> Ajax, I'll have to disagree with you on that. IWC has some of the highest materials and components competence in the whole watch industry, on the highest level with only a few other makers. Apart from a caliber, the way and preciseness a case and dial are refined is the really tough thing, and what differentiates a good watch from a great watch.
> 
> If you look at the Hamilton (which is definitely a fine timepiece, not doubting that), and compare that to a 3714 in your own hand, you'll see a huge difference in the details. As an example, check the jags of the crown: extremely filigree on the Portuguese. Same goes for the hands - it's tough to do a heat-blued central second dial that thin - bear in mind you have to keep it between approx. 295 and 305°C for just the right amount of time. Then the 3d minute indexes compared to printed minute indexes.
> 
> All that might seem like minor details, but those are the details that require a MUCH higher material and processing competence.


To play devils advocate here.... IWC doesn't make their own dials, hands or strap. In some models, the only thing IWC actually makes is the case. This is the sad reality, but, doesn't mean it's a poor quality watch. IWC designs these pieces with the highest quality materials no doubt. But, don't kid yourself that your watch was fully manufactured in the walls of IWC - this just simply not the way it works.

Most of the industry works this way. There are only a few true manufactures, and even these outsource some things like straps.

Rolex for example is one of the only few that make everything from case, to bracelet, to dial, to hands to even mixing their old precious metals.


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## tobytobes (Jul 17, 2011)

and the Hamilton is not even a stock 7750. it's a supped up 7750 with a 60 hour power reserve. my new rule is I won't buy a 7750 from any brand until I check the hammy equivalent. I mean Ashford have hammy chronos with the 6 hour reserve for 600 dollars. to pay 10k for an iwc just seems obscene.


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## slashd0t (Nov 14, 2009)

tobytobes said:


> and the Hamilton is not even a stock 7750. it's a supped up 7750 with a 60 hour power reserve. my new rule is I won't buy a 7750 from any brand until I check the hammy equivalent. I mean Ashford have hammy chronos with the 6 hour reserve for 600 dollars. to pay 10k for an iwc just seems obscene.


Having owned (and own) both Hamilton and IWC, there is so much more to the watch than just the movement to determine the overall cost of the piece...

For one, there is no logic to luxury items... Luxury items are purely emotional ... Is a $10,000 IWC worth $9300 more than a Hamilton? Are the materials etc really $9300 more? No, of course not ... However, is a $60,000 Patek worth $50,000 more than an IWC? In cost of materials, highly unlikely .... It's really all relative and subjective to the buyer.. I love my Hamilton watches without question, however, they don't give me an emotional response like a JLC, IWC, Patek or Rolex... Can't really explain why that is.. I can tell you the quality of IWC is > than the Hamilton.. I can see it in the case work and dial work... Not 15x the quality of Hamilton however...


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## slashd0t (Nov 14, 2009)

Ajax_Drakos said:


> I agree.
> 
> This will run about $7k?
> 
> ...


To be fair, one watch here is pretty much copying the heritage and design of the other... You're paying for the original, the one who broke the ground and initially built the design over the one who simply copied it to make a cheaper version for the masses.... Do you want the the original, or, the copy? Will you look down at your wrist with the same admiration having the Hamilton over the IWC? I know how I would feel ... Empty with the Hamilton longing for the original, but, feeling like I settled because it was cheaper..


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Ajax_Drakos said:


> I agree.
> 
> This will run about $7k?
> 
> ...


To be fair, the IWC is a modified Valjoux where the 9 o'clock running seconds subdial has been moved to 6, eliminating the 12 hour counter. The Hamilton is just a 7750 on which the running seconds have been erased, probably with zero modification, leaving the dial and hands visually inert unless the chrono is running. Also, to my knowledge this version only has the regular Valjoux and not the 60 pr version. Finally, as has already been mentioned this is clearly an homage piece to the IWC Portuguese.

Supply and demand have dictated the current unfortunate price level. I find the prices that Ulysse Nardin and Montblanc charge for an ETA pretty steep as well. What they have in common with IWC is that they can all hang their hats very high on some very fine complications pieces. Hamilton isn't positioned that way.

In the end the prices of watches reflect differences in the wealth levels of their buyers, not purely the properties of the watch. Some people are quite wealthy...


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## Boaters (Jun 27, 2010)

slashd0t said:


> Having owned (and own) both Hamilton and IWC, there is so much more to the watch than just the movement to determine the overall cost of the piece...
> 
> For one, there is no logic to luxury items... Luxury items are purely emotional ... Is a $10,000 IWC worth $9300 more than a Hamilton? Are the materials etc really $9300 more? No, of course not ... However, is a $60,000 Patek worth $50,000 more than an IWC? In cost of materials, highly unlikely .... It's really all relative and subjective to the buyer.. I love my Hamilton watches without question, however, they don't give me an emotional response like a JLC, IWC, Patek or Rolex... Can't really explain why that is.. I can tell you the quality of IWC is > than the Hamilton.. I can see it in the case work and dial work... Not 15x the quality of Hamilton however...


I agree 100% when I wear my Oris Small seconds compared to my IWC Aquatimer it is just as you say can't explain it but the fit and finish just seems better on the IWC ... Although I love them both.


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