# Seiko LX - Is Grand Seiko being devalued by Seiko?



## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

I've been lurking (and posting) here on and off for a few years now but don't yet own a GS watch. I do own Seiko watches and can't fault their quality. I have seen GS watches in the flesh both in the Seiko Boutique in London and also in Beverly Hills where I very nearly pulled the trigger on a Snowflake. We arrived though just as the store in California was closing on the day before we travelled home so it all felt a bit rushed.

I've read many posts from people saying things like, "Isn't Grand Seiko just another Seiko with the word Grand on it for a lot more money?" Although I don't own a GS, as I say I have seen and tried them and I can see the finishing, the polishing and the attention to detail is superb, and then there are the movements like the Spring Drive. So as a complete package I can see the very clear lines and difference between Seiko and Grand Seiko, perhaps until now with the new LX Line.

From my minimal research the Seiko LX line all contain the Spring Drive movement, are all Titanium and are finished with Zaratsu polishing. Cost is in the region of $5,100 - $6,100 depending on the model.

Is this not blurring the lines more than a little in the differentiation between Seiko and Grand Seiko and to an extent devaluing the Grand Seiko brand? With the release of this new line and the specifications of the LX watches, is it not perhaps becoming a little accurate that the difference is the word "Grand"?


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## Dufresne (Dec 20, 2012)

If I’m correct, the LX line is comprised of Prospex models that are large, purpose-built tool watches that, by looking at them, could never be confused with most GS. The Prosepex is a well-established and respected Seiko line, but is just plain different than the watches that are GS-branded. Yes, there are large GS divers and chronographs, but two different animals. So to answer your question, no, it doesn’t devalue GS to anyone who knows
anything about watches. For those who don’t know watches, I would say that any Seiko would tend to “devalue” GS because of the reason you stated—“it’s just another Seiko”. 


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

Good points although I'm referring more to the specification. If somebody asked me what would I be buying if I bought a watch that contained a Spring Drive movement, is made of Titanium (although that's not so relevant) and was finished with Zaratsu polishing, I'd say without hesitation, that would be a Grand Seiko. That's no longer the case. I agree that these are larger tool watches, but is it just the beginning for a Prospex range that has fundamentally the same movement, build quality and finishing of a GS. I'm not one of those people who ask isn't a GS just another Seiko. I know and understand the difference. I'm just surprised that Seiko start to produce Seiko watches, with the same spec and similar pricing to the GS range.



Dufresne said:


> If I'm correct, the LX line is comprised of Prospex models that are large, purpose-built tool watches that, by looking at them, could never be confused with most GS. The Prosepex is a well-established and respected Seiko line, but is just plain different than the watches that are GS-branded. Yes, there are large GS divers and chronographs, but two different animals. So to answer your question, no, it doesn't devalue GS to anyone who knows
> anything about watches. For those who don't know watches, I would say that any Seiko would tend to "devalue" GS because of the reason you stated-"it's just another Seiko".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dufresne (Dec 20, 2012)

I’m not sure it’s ever been true. Those features have not been exclusive to Grand Seiko and have been present in Prospex models and others for a long time. You could also ask if GS devalues Credor, I suppose. Just different lines for different purposes, and there is a crossover of features amongst Seiko product lines. I don’t think it affects value at all. 


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

Equally I suppose it could be the complete opposite in that the Prospex LX range are very expensive Seiko watches.


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## BrianBinFL (Jan 10, 2018)

Pretty sure the new LX watches have 5R Spring Drive movements in them, not the 9R that is in the Grand Seikos. Whether that is just the degree of ornamentation or something else I do not know.


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

sonyman99 said:


> Equally I suppose it could be the complete opposite in that the Prospex LX range are very expensive Seiko watches.


I think this is more likely accepted


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## aalin13 (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm guessing case finishing aside, there are still differences to the quality of the finishing applied to hands dial and movement. My bigger concern is with Prospex watches pushing old GS pricing territory, will this mean further price increases for GS in the years to come?


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

aalin13 said:


> I'm guessing case finishing aside, there are still differences to the quality of the finishing applied to hands dial and movement. My bigger concern is with Prospex watches pushing old GS pricing territory, will this mean further price increases for GS in the years to come?


Unobtainable for most


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

GS watches are only going to get more expensive. That's a given....


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## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

Seems like it would be the other way around. Why would I buy these Seikos when I could get a much more prestigious, better finished Grand Seiko with a better movement for the same money?


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## westcoastco (Apr 10, 2016)

I think releasing these Zaratsu-polished spring drive divers under the Seiko label is a marketing and branding mistake. While in Japan sping drive has been inside all sorts of Seiko sub-brands, for the rest of the world it would have been wiser to keep Zaratsu polishing and spring drive GS-only.


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## heineken4u (Sep 1, 2018)

westcoastco said:


> I think releasing these Zaratsu-polished spring drive divers under the Seiko label is a marketing and branding mistake. While in Japan sping drive has been inside all sorts of Seiko sub-brands, for the rest of the world it would have been wiser to keep Zaratsu polishing and spring drive GS-only.


Kind of tells me that GS with its zaratsu finish is overhyped in the "grand scheme of things."

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## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

heineken4u said:


> Kind of tells me that GS with its zaratsu finish is overhyped in the "grand scheme of things."
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


I have a $500 Casio Oceanus and they claim to use the same technique. Its probably more a matter of execution rather than the zaratsu polishing being a magic bullet.


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## rdoder (Jul 13, 2013)

The first thing I thought of when I saw these Seiko Prospex LX models is not devaluing GS, but rather, elevating the "SEIKO" brand and Prospex sub-brand as Seiko go upmarket.

These LX models being so new, obviously I haven't seen them in-person... With GS, I think one gets more traditional, classic, elegant, perhaps more plain designs (on the front side), and maybe transparent caseback to see the movement, whereas with Prospex LX with Spring Drive, I haven't seen pictures of the caseback, but they could be non-transparent caseback, and the designs are for sure more tool-ish.

Whether it devalues or elevates "Grand Seiko" or "SEIKO" respectively depends on how one thinks about it.

I guess introduction of Prospex LX (with Spring Drive) also expands the perception of the Prospex sub-brand, in terms of price range and "valuation" anyway. i.e. "Prospex" (and I guess "SEIKO") no longer means "cheap" necessarily.

What Seiko do is so interesting. It's so the opposite of what other watch brands do. Other watch brands are into price segmentation along brands and sub-brands, whereas Seiko almost actively try to eliminate such boundaries or demarcations. While other watch brands actively want consumers to want the "higher end" (higher price associated) brands by clear separation of brands and sub-brands into price segments, Seiko go the opposite way. e.g. GS quartz is less expensive than Seiko Prospex LX.

I kind of like this. To not be a status symbol has its advantages and disadvantages. The clear disadvantage is non-watch people that just want a status symbol would never buy a Seiko or GS, because "SEIKO" or "GS" is not a clear mark of status. The advantage is that there is no stigma of status symbol associated with "SEIKO" or "GS".

It's almost like Seiko want people to buy Seiko/GS watches not because of what others (other watch people or general public) think about the brand or sub-brand, but because the buyer (the individual) like a particular Seiko/GS watch. The brand perception almost has to play no role, because the brand is "cheap" or invisible to the general public.

Or rather, Seiko/GS target those that like the invisible brand, just for the owner to appreciate, not for others to recognize. There is no recognition when pricing, branding, and designs are "all over the place" or change constantly.

Or I see the Seiko brand as a "flattened" brand, the same "SEIKO" brand for watches of all prices, going from $100 to $10k and beyond. It is literally a brand for everyone. I like that inclusivity.

Historically, GS is supposed to be "the best of Seiko", so I agree with a previous poster, probably one gets "better" or more ornately finished movement with GS.


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## clarencek (Mar 25, 2008)

My read is everything is getting more expensive. The Prospex line which used to be ~ $3K just moved up to $5K. 
The GS lines are also matching that moving up 2-3K as well.


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## westcoastco (Apr 10, 2016)

heineken4u said:


> Kind of tells me that GS with its zaratsu finish is overhyped in the "grand scheme of things."


Zaratsu is apparently the Japanized pronuncialtion of Sallaz, the brand name of a German (Swiss?) machine on which the polishing is done. So perhaps any watch maker can have such a machine and polish on it with different levels of manual skill and investment of human labor.

The inclusion of spring drive into these regular Seiko divers is what dilutes the GS brand more.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

SaoDavi said:


> Seems like it would be the other way around. Why would I buy these Seikos when I could get a much more prestigious, better finished Grand Seiko with a better movement for the same money?


Exactly. If anything, GS sets the ceiling for Seiko prices in a way. Given the choice of a $5,000 Seiko or $5,000 GS, I know which direction I am going to go. Not to take anything away from the Prospex LX lineup. I think they're all incredible, but I think if I am going to pay GS money for a GMT, I am going to get a GS GMT.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

westcoastco said:


> Zaratsu is apparently the Japanized pronuncialtion of Sallaz, the brand name of a German (Swiss?) machine on which the polishing is done. So perhaps any watch maker can have such a machine and polish on it with different levels of manual skill and investment of human labor.
> 
> The inclusion of spring drive into these regular Seiko divers is what dilutes the GS brand more.


Spring drive is not and has never been exclusive to GS. These are not GS grade spring drive movements however. These use I believe the 5R65 & 5R66 movements, the 5 denoting a lower sub series movement from Seiko.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Exactly. If anything, GS sets the ceiling for Seiko prices in a way. Given the choice of a $5,000 Seiko or $5,000 GS, I know which direction I am going to go. Not to take anything away from the Prospex LX lineup. I think they're all incredible, but I think if I am going to pay GS money for a GMT, I am going to get a GS GMT.


The equivalent GS GMT given where they're going is going to be over 10k and pushing 15k I would expect.


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## westcoastco (Apr 10, 2016)

DustinS said:


> Spring drive is not and has never been exclusive to GS. These are not GS grade spring drive movements however. These use I believe the 5R65 & 5R66 movements, the 5 denoting a lower sub series movement from Seiko.


What is historically correct as you point out isn't the same as marketing. For example, does Rolex now put cyclops lens and Mercedes hands on Tudors? No, even if historically that was common (eg Tudor Subs). They are keeping the two brands visually and price-wise separate. I wish GS did the same.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

DustinS said:


> Mr.Jones82 said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly. If anything, GS sets the ceiling for Seiko prices in a way. Given the choice of a $5,000 Seiko or $5,000 GS, I know which direction I am going to go. Not to take anything away from the Prospex LX lineup. I think they're all incredible, but I think if I am going to pay GS money for a GMT, I am going to get a GS GMT.
> ...


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## heineken4u (Sep 1, 2018)

clarencek said:


> My read is everything is getting more expensive. The Prospex line which used to be ~ $3K just moved up to $5K.
> The GS lines are also matching that moving up 2-3K as well.


They make prospex for $400 also lol. GS marketing and product placement I've come to realize is garbage.

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## heineken4u (Sep 1, 2018)

I am officially off the GS wagon, not that anyone would care. They make a nice watch, but not for the money they want. Only my opinion. And yes, I've handled them.. Was about to get that 201 GMT, then I slept on it for a couple months. Instead I put myself on a sub date waiting list. 

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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

I love the new LX but not really for the price. I'm no watch expert, but know enough to be typing here, thus that "Grand Seiko is the nicer Seiko" except now it's not. or something.

Which is where Seiko screwed up.

Yet, we're all assuming there's an overarching strategy or thought - instead, it seems like separate business units doing their own thing without talking to each other - basically the Prospex dudes are like, "sure I think we can make some dough with this", it gets the green light, and nobody on the GS side was ever consulted or maybe even heard about it until we did.

Happens every day in corporate america.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

^@heineken, Two completely different watches but of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For me personally, I don't buy a watch for it's relative competitive value, I buy it because I like the watch. At the luxury price point I personally don't have the shopping around mentality, but that may just be me.


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## westcoastco (Apr 10, 2016)

ahonobaka said:


> ^@heineken, Two completely different watches but of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For me personally, I don't buy a watch for it's relative competitive value, I buy it because I like the watch. At the luxury price point I personally don't have the shopping around mentality, but that may just be me.


How do you make the choice though? Seiko / GS are confusing me. I really like GMTs and I also like spring drives. The new LX GMT is SD, two-color bezel, and light with titanium - awesome. However, for only a few hundred dollars more I can have a GS SD GMT which is visually better finished and the movement may be marginally better too. However the GS is also heavier with steel and I ultimately wonder if it's a better watch or not.

At any rate, I won't belabor the point. The new LX lineup is great, and so are the comparable GS. Some of us here aren't bothered or confused by the product overlap and others are.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

westcoastco said:


> How do you make the choice though? Seiko / GS are confusing me. I really like GMTs and I also like spring drives. The new LX GMT is SD, two-color bezel, and light with titanium - awesome. However, for only a few hundred dollars more I can have a GS SD GMT which is visually better finished and the movement may be marginally better too. However the GS is also heavier with steel and I ultimately wonder if it's a better watch or not.


I think it can be as simple as "Do I want something more dressy/polished, or something more brute toolish?"


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## heineken4u (Sep 1, 2018)

ahonobaka said:


> ^@heineken, Two completely different watches but of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For me personally, I don't buy a watch for it's relative competitive value, I buy it because I like the watch. At the luxury price point I personally don't have the shopping around mentality, but that may just be me.


They are completely different watches. My reason for not wait listing a GMT LN is because I don't like the polished center links. Another reason which stopped me on the GS GMT 201. I don't like the bracelet at all.

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## Nokie (Jul 4, 2011)

For people who know and appreciate nice watches, they know comparing a Seiko to a GS is apples to oranges.....


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## heineken4u (Sep 1, 2018)

Nokie said:


> For people who know and appreciate nice watches, they know comparing a Seiko to a GS is apples to oranges.....


So why does Seiko price some of their watches as much or more than some GS?

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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

ahonobaka said:


> I think it can be as simple as "Do I want something more dressy/polished, or something more brute toolish?"


Yup, exactly. LX is obviously pushing tools, GS fancy pants luxury.


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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

heineken4u said:


> So why does Seiko price some of their watches as much or more than some GS?


Because they're different products for different customers made (and priced) by different business units.


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## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

I personally think that these are pretty much lower tier Grand Seiko’s in line with the 62MAS. The quality on these look exceptional to me.

I would say these are like an OP39 and GS are like Rolex Explorer. Pretty much the same to be honest.

In fact, the Ferrari guy designing these should put them on the same class as GS.

Yeah, they probably should’t have put Prospex on these but at least now Djokovich can wear GS level stuff to match Federer’s Rolex watches and Nadal’s Richard mille’s.


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## JoeOBrien (Aug 2, 2013)

GrussGott said:


> Yet, we're all assuming there's an overarching strategy or thought - instead, it seems like separate business units doing their own thing without talking to each other - basically the Prospex dudes are like, "sure I think we can make some dough with this", it gets the green light, and nobody on the GS side was ever consulted or maybe even heard about it until we did.
> 
> Happens every day in corporate america.


:/

Bro, Seiko and Grand Seiko are still Seiko. The brand separation was just a marketing move. It's still the same people at the top calling the shots on what happens with both brands. They're not separate entities doing what they want, independent of each other. That would make no sense.


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

sonyman99 said:


> I've been lurking (and posting) here on and off for a few years now but don't yet own a GS watch. I do own Seiko watches and can't fault their quality. I have seen GS watches in the flesh both in the Seiko Boutique in London and also in Beverly Hills where I very nearly pulled the trigger on a Snowflake. We arrived though just as the store in California was closing on the day before we travelled home so it all felt a bit rushed.
> 
> I've read many posts from people saying things like, "Isn't Grand Seiko just another Seiko with the word Grand on it for a lot more money?" Although I don't own a GS, as I say I have seen and tried them and I can see the finishing, the polishing and the attention to detail is superb, and then there are the movements like the Spring Drive. So as a complete package I can see the very clear lines and difference between Seiko and Grand Seiko, perhaps until now with the new LX Line.
> 
> ...


Well, GS also has mechanical and quartz movements in the stable. And there are $100 Seiko quartz and Seiko 5 mechanical. Does a 7Sxx or a 6Rxx cheapen a GS 9Sxx movement?

Seiko has introduced SD to various lines of watches which sadly didn't have staying power, with the exception of the Prospex line. There have been various SD Prospexes for the past decade or so.

What separates the GS from the rest is the execution, from 9 series movements to exquisite casework you won't find from the Swiss at the price of a GS. It's basically finishing, and execution.


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## JoeOBrien (Aug 2, 2013)

I personally don't think Spring Drive itself has much to do with it. They could probably make really affordable SD watches if they wanted to. The difference between a Prospex SD and a Grand Seiko SD is the finish of the movement. 

Overall build quality, finishing and refinement is where LX will prove to be poor value. I say this without having handled one of course, but I'd find it very hard to believe that they were of significantly higher build than a MM300 to justify being double the price. 

Take the MSRP of the MM300 at $3250. I'll be very generous with some upgrade costs. Add Spring Drive? +$500. Add titanium? +$500. Add better bracelet? +$250. Add miscellaneous refinements? +$250. Add designer involvement? +$250.

So we're at $5000 and it's already overpriced. Where does the extra $1000 for the SNR029 come from?

I think that LX, and the $3000 Presages, are actually about making GS look like the more attractive value proposition.


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## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

JoeOBrien said:


> I personally don't think Spring Drive itself has much to do with it. They could probably make really affordable SD watches if they wanted to. The difference between a Prospex SD and a Grand Seiko SD is the finish of the movement.
> 
> Overall build quality, finishing and refinement is where LX will prove to be poor value. I say this without having handled one of course, but I'd find it very hard to believe that they were of significantly higher build than a MM300 to justify being double the price.
> 
> ...


I may be wrong because I am just going by pics and videos, but these seem much better quality than the MM300. Like by a lot.

The MM300 looks like any other JDM prospect diver like sarb Level. These new LX models looks like GS quality to me. They look expensive and well made.

We shall see once the reviews come and more hands on impressions happen though. I suspect I am right.


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## 14060 (Nov 27, 2010)

It just looks like Seiko is filling in a niche between the older PROSPEX pure tool watches and the more luxurious Grand Seiko line.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

JoeOBrien said:


> :/
> 
> Bro, Seiko and Grand Seiko are still Seiko. The brand separation was just a marketing move. It's still the same people at the top calling the shots on what happens with both brands. They're not separate entities doing what they want, independent of each other. That would make no sense.


There's a lot of competition among departments in corporations. The departments that make the most money (or have the most upside) usually have the most say/power. The way I see it, Seiko lost control of the dial by having it omitted from the new GS. That was a loss for Seiko. In response, Seiko was allowed to gain access to the spring drive. And position themselves better for moving up market. Seiko is now competing with GS to some extent. Sure the money goes to the top. But the bottom lines are still separated and bragging rights are at stake.


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## JoeOBrien (Aug 2, 2013)

TellingTime said:


> There's a lot of competition among departments in corporations. The departments that make the most money (or have the most upside) usually have the most say/power. The way I see it, Seiko lost control of the dial by having it omitted from the new GS. That was a loss for Seiko. In response, Seiko was allowed to gain access to the spring drive. And position themselves better for moving up market. Seiko is now competing with GS to some extent. Sure the money goes to the top. But the bottom lines are still separated and bragging rights are at stake.


:'D

Let me get this straight. So, before the 'separation' of Seiko and Grand Seiko, the folks who worked at regular old Seiko, making SARBs and turtles and whatnot, throwing paper airplanes back and forth across the office so everyone could add their own design detail to a drawing of the latest Seiko 5, were all proud of the fact that Grand Seikos had the 'Seiko' logo on the dial, even though they didn't have anything to do with designing or making them. Then somebody at head office says "we're splitting the brands because ppl think Grand Seiko is crap like regular Seiko! We're taking 'Seiko' off the dial". Then everybody at regular old Seiko is like ** because they liked their name being on the dial and this was a great dishonor to them for some reason.

So then the folks at regular Seiko say "you can't do this to us, Hattori! We need control of the dials!" and Hattori-san says "it's ok, you can have access to Spring Drive, which until now has never been used outside of Grand Seiko, despite the fact that Spring Drive was unveiled in 1999 and not used in a Grand Seiko until 2004, and certainly never used in any 'regular' Seiko such as the MM600 or landmaster or Ananta".

I sincerely apologise for being condescending, but that was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.


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## westcoastco (Apr 10, 2016)

14060 said:


> It just looks like Seiko is filling in a niche between the older PROSPEX pure tool watches and the more luxurious Grand Seiko line.


Is there such a niche? Either GS should step up their game in sports / tool models or cede that space to Prospex and focus on polished dressy models, which is the majority of the GS line already. Given that in the US luxury sports watches are most in demand, I'd argue that GS needs to figure that niche out and not use Prospex LX etc for it.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

JoeOBrien said:


> :'D
> 
> Let me get this straight. So, before the 'separation' of Seiko and Grand Seiko, the folks who worked at regular old Seiko, making SARBs and turtles and whatnot, throwing paper airplanes back and forth across the office so everyone could add their own design detail to a drawing of the latest Seiko 5, were all proud of the fact that Grand Seikos had the 'Seiko' logo on the dial, even though they didn't have anything to do with designing or making them. Then somebody at head office says "we're splitting the brands because ppl think Grand Seiko is crap like regular Seiko! We're taking 'Seiko' off the dial". Then everybody at regular old Seiko is like ** because they liked their name being on the dial and this was a great dishonor to them for some reason.
> 
> ...


Cute. I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of the Seiko corporation. However, I do know a thing or two about corporate culture and politics. It's very competitive. If you think or know, that the heads of Seiko and GS are friendly, that's fine. (With the recent changes, looks like Seiko hopes to steal some bottom line from GS and GS has finally got out from the Seiko tag)

But you don't know Jack if you think all players play nice just because they are "owned" by the same entity. Or that any of this is driven by marketing. Marketing doesn't make these decisions. (LOL)... That my friend is beyond naive.


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## BrianBinFL (Jan 10, 2018)

My degree is in business economics and I have to say when I read about the $5000+ LX SD models the very first thing I thought of was "Decoy Effect". The "Now I Know" mailing list has a very accessible article that explains the decoy effect. Check it out and see if you agree.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

BrianBinFL said:


> My degree is in business economics and I have to say when I read about the $5000+ LX SD models the very first thing I thought of was "Decoy Effect". The "Now I Know" mailing list has a very accessible article that explains the decoy effect. Check it out and see if you agree.


Not sure if it matters. But they don't sell Seiko and GS together in my areas.

And for me, the tell is in the branding and overlapping markets. Looks like Seiko has dominated the GS dials for years. Why change now? That suggests an in-house separation. The overlapping markets...that's just more expensive. What's the need to have Seiko move up and take away from GS sales.

These changes require champions in the organization. Marketing has nothing to do with it IMO.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

db


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## BrianBinFL (Jan 10, 2018)

TellingTime said:


> Not sure if it matters. But they don't sell Seiko and GS together in my areas.
> 
> And for me, the tell is in the branding and overlapping markets. Looks like Seiko has dominated the GS dials for years. Why change now? That suggests an in-house separation. The overlapping markets...that's just more expensive. What's the need to have Seiko move up and take away from GS sales.
> 
> These changes require champions in the organization. Marketing has nothing to do with it IMO.


Perhaps not - it was just the first thing that came to mind. Seiko and GS may not be sold together in most brick and mortar locations, but I think the number of people that do their research online, and decide what to buy based on that, is probably significant. All options are present online. I could see someone saying "geez, those Seiko LX SD divers are $X and a Grand Seiko is also about $X, that makes Grand Seiko look more attractive than it did before".

It could also be the opposite. Grand Seiko does not own Spring Drive, Seiko Instruments does. As such SII can sell SD movements to whomever they want, or use them in their own watches if they feel like it. If the SII execs are feeling any sort of pinch at all by the loss of the GS brand (splitting to a separate corp) they may well have said "well, Spring Drive is ours so we're going to put it in some of our watches and recoup some of that lost revenue".

The truth is nobody here knows and the people that do know sure as hell aren't going to tell us.

I just wanted to share the information about the decoy effect because if Seiko executed a little decoy effect to make GS more attractive it wouldn't be the dumbest thing they ever did.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

BrianBinFL said:


> Perhaps not - it was just the first thing that came to mind. Seiko and GS may not be sold together in most brick and mortar locations, but I think the number of people that do their research online, and decide what to buy based on that, is probably significant. All options are present online. I could see someone saying "geez, those Seiko LX SD divers are $X and a Grand Seiko is also about $X, that makes Grand Seiko look more attractive than it did before".
> 
> It could also be the opposite. Grand Seiko does not own Spring Drive, Seiko Instruments does. As such SII can sell SD movements to whomever they want, or use them in their own watches if they feel like it. If the SII execs are feeling any sort of pinch at all by the loss of the GS brand (splitting to a separate corp) they may well have said "well, Spring Drive is ours so we're going to put it in some of our watches and recoup some of that lost revenue".
> 
> ...


I agree none of us really know. However, nothing says execs in the same company have to play nice. They're all gunning for the top spots. FWIW, I doubt Seiko uses much in-house marketing/advertising. That's how the big guys spread some of the money around. And no outsider is going to get Seiko to remove their branding off a GS after 50 years or so of tradition. The 800 pound gorillas don't work like that.


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## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

BrianBinFL said:


> My degree is in business economics and I have to say when I read about the $5000+ LX SD models the very first thing I thought of was "Decoy Effect". The "Now I Know" mailing list has a very accessible article that explains the decoy effect. Check it out and see if you agree.


I doubt this. A decoy would be like one or two watches without too much effort made because the effect doesn't justify that much attention. 6 watches and 3 distinct lines in titanium with spring drive movements and Zaratsu polishing is a little bit too much effort for a decoy. Not to mention they hired a Ferrari designer, you definitely don't need to do that for a decoy.

I think people are overthinking this. It could just be the most obvious answer. They want to make GS quality divers but prefer the prospex name for their sports watches and divers.

Anyways, it's not like Seiko lacks a price range or lacks a category. Why not an LX category and price range? Looks great to me and I would have purchased the Batman lx if it was 39mm.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

Over the last two years GS has released a number of sports models. If we ignore the quartz models for moment, there is one model at about 6k (a red dial GMT). The next cheapest sports model comes in at over 10k. Yes they still have a 6k diver which is awfully close to these, but that was a 2017 release and was just an updated dial from a much older model. GS is moving rapidly up market and in their sports watches they're new releases are well into the Rolex and climbing towards the trinity sports models. Grand seiko is creating room for lower seiko models to go up in price as that's where the watch world is going in a world of apple watches.


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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

JoeOBrien said:


> Bro, Seiko and Grand Seiko are still Seiko. *The brand separation was just a marketing move. It's still the same people at the top calling the shots *on what happens with both brands. They're not separate entities doing what they want, independent of each other. That would make no sense.


And you know this, bro, because you have first-hand inside knowledge of the Seiko businesses? or because you're guessing? Cause it sounds like the latter.

I've worked for F10 international companies for 25 years, done a LOT business with Japanese corporations and, while i'm speculating, this sure as hell looks like separate business units doing their own thing. Odd that you think corporate operations "make sense" ... I've never seen that.

*TLDR*: Prospex LX is either foolish strategy or corporate incompetence ... and I'm an Occom's razor guy, so I'm going with incompetence, but we can't rule out your guess of foolish strategy either.


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

The responses have been a very interesting read. There seems to be multiple opinions on the merit and reasoning behind the logic and purpose of Seiko producing this LX range. 

I would therefore say the answer to my my question “Is this not blurring the lines more than a little in the differentiation between Seiko and Grand Seiko“ by default has to be yes.


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## JoeOBrien (Aug 2, 2013)

GrussGott said:


> And you know this, bro, because you have first-hand inside knowledge of the Seiko businesses? or because you're guessing? Cause it sounds like the latter.
> 
> I've worked for F10 international companies for 25 years, done a LOT business with Japanese corporations and, while i'm speculating, this sure as hell looks like separate business units doing their own thing. Odd that you think corporate operations "make sense" ... I've never seen that.
> 
> *TLDR*: Prospex LX is either foolish strategy or corporate incompetence ... and I'm an Occom's razor guy, so I'm going with incompetence, but we can't rule out your guess of foolish strategy either.


They are not opposing companies. Everything one branch does is part of the same strategy decided by the mothership. The obvious strategy, in my view, is first and foremost, pushing all Seiko products toward the higher end, particularly GS, hence the lack of entry-level GS product featured at Basel (though I'm sure some quiet releases will follow later). What was shown at Basel in the usual entry GS price range ($3000-$6000) was 'regular' Seiko product. $3000 Presages and $5-6000 Prospex.

The intended effect of this, however unlikely it seems in the short term, is A: getting the consumer used to seeing high-priced Seiko product, and B: making lower-end GS product seem more attractive in comparison. That is, you might consider buying an LX at $5-6000 but then decide that if you're spending that kind of money, you might as well get a GS. Same with the SJE enamel Presage models - why on Earth would you spend $3000 on a Presage when you can pay just a little more for a GS? I would guess that LX and higher-end Presage will not be readily available, maybe boutique-only, or dealers who stock higher-end product.

A bonus of LX is there are people out there who want a well-made, 'luxury'-level watch, but prefer the look of an aggressive, chunky tool watch rather than a refined dress diver like a GS. But at $6000, there's a lot of competition out there.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

JoeOBrien said:


> *They are not opposing companies.* *Everything one branch does is part of the same strategy decided by the mothership.*


You fail to understand that they each operate independently within the corporation. It would be unusual for them to try and increase/decrease the others sales. Each group will have their own strategy/leadership/direction. The "mothership" only approve/disapprove. They don't strategize...lol

Edit: I should have been more condescending.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

Prospex dive watches and Presage fall under Grand Seiko Corp of America, at least from a marketing perspective:

"GSA will also market two other Seiko Group brands: the prestige portion of Presage, the mechanical-watch collection, priced from $1,000 to $2,400; and dive watches in Prospex, Seiko's sports collection (with models priced up to $3,250 and one at $5,400)." from Hodinkee article on GSA


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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

TellingTime said:


> You fail to understand that they each operate independently within the corporation....They don't strategize


Exactly, in the corporate world this is called "turf for perf";i.e., each business unit has a set of leaders compensated on their business unit performance - the execs attempt to expand their turf to get paid more by, say, releasing new products for new market segments they don't currently serve.



ahonobaka said:


> Prospex dive watches and Presage fall under Grand Seiko Corp of America, at least from a marketing perspective


Or, better said, from a _market _perspective ... i.e., GSA is likely an importer with product folks who create requirements for US-specific models as they're in-market and understand the local customer. For example, BMW dealerships aren't owned by BMW, they're like watch ADs, i.e., independent businesses. In the US, dealerships buy their cars from BMW of North America who's responsible for coordinating with BMW AG in germany on US market needs and importing the cars from Germany (and lately manufacturing SUVs in-country for the global market)

Nevertheless, this LX move_ could be _internal corporate competition or just bad strategy or SWC doing a huge market test (which is bad strategy) ... and if the LX is being marketed out of GSA, then it implies that SWC is seeing the LX as primarily a US product (i.e., betting that SWC and GS customers are different personas and thus branding will be an asset rather than a liability - that's a bad bet)


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## Madugo (Jan 10, 2008)

not the same line..


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

GrussGott said:


> Exactly, in the corporate world this is called "turf for perf";i.e., each business unit has a set of leaders compensated on their business unit performance - the execs attempt to expand their turf to get paid more by, say, releasing new products for new market segments they don't currently serve.


Most people don't understand the purpose of the board of directors (mothership). They don't realize that they are made up of individuals who sit on other boards and come from other industries. That's why it's funny to think some retired exec from the insurance industry is giving direction on Seiko dials and price points. The CEO runs the company along with the heads of each division. Each one of those heads would like to be the next CEO. Maybe they all play nice at Seiko. Maybe they don't.



GrussGott said:


> Or, better said, from a _market _perspective ... i.e., GSA is likely an importer with product folks who create requirements for US-specific models as they're in-market and understand the local customer. For example, BMW dealerships aren't owned by BMW, they're like watch ADs, i.e., independent businesses. In the US, dealerships buy their cars from BMW of North America who's responsible for coordinating with BMW AG in germany on US market needs and importing the cars from Germany (and lately manufacturing SUVs in-country for the global market)


Yep. The malls don't carry $1,000 + watches. So these high-end Seikos fit better in the GS distribution chain.



GrussGott said:


> Nevertheless, this LX move_ could be _internal corporate competition or just bad strategy or SWC doing a huge market test (which is bad strategy) ... and if the LX is being marketed out of GSA, then it implies that SWC is seeing the LX as primarily a US product (i.e., betting that SWC and GS customers are different personas and thus branding will be an asset rather than a liability - that's a bad bet)


Sounds nerdy but it is always fun to speculate on these things. I think everything points to GS moving beyond Seiko. --Which is a good thing for GS IMO. An old badge GS will increase as no more are being made. And the new GS has the dial all to themselves. However, I think it would be a mistake to give Seiko the sport lines and leave GS with the rest .


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

TellingTime said:


> Sounds nerdy but it is always fun to speculate on these things. I think everything points to GS moving beyond Seiko. --Which is a good thing for GS IMO. An old badge GS will increase as no more are being made. And the new GS has the dial all to themselves. However, I think it would be a mistake to give Seiko the sport lines and leave GS with the rest .


You raise some interesting points. Could this be preparation for Grand Seiko to bring in Credor?

All mechanical, all the time


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## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

ahonobaka said:


> Prospex dive watches and Presage fall under Grand Seiko Corp of America, at least from a marketing perspective:
> 
> "GSA will also market two other Seiko Group brands: the prestige portion of Presage, the mechanical-watch collection, priced from $1,000 to $2,400; and dive watches in Prospex, Seiko's sports collection (with models priced up to $3,250 and one at $5,400)." from Hodinkee article on GSA


There you go. I am okay with this strategy. Not sure why others aren't.

Then again, I had no interest in sumos and blumos until this LX line. So maybe this line is more for the newbies like me that dabbled in GS but never the Prospex. Seems like an okay strategy to me since they would have gotten me if they had smaller variants.

Prospex line is better known for ****tier mineral crystals rather than sapphire, creaky bracelets that are passable enough for $1000 watches and under, quartz movements or outdated 6R15 movements basically. The LX line cleans everything up to GS levels. I don't think this is a bad strategy at all. I am seriously interested in a non GS Seiko for the first time in years. Just need smaller case sizes now.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

whineboy said:


> You raise some interesting points. Could this be preparation for Grand Seiko to bring in Credor?
> 
> All mechanical, all the time


In corporations it is all about the money. If your unit is doing good, the more say you have in decisions.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

heineken4u said:


> They are completely different watches. My reason for not wait listing a GMT LN is because I don't like the polished center links. Another reason which stopped me on the GS GMT 201. I don't like the bracelet at all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


Shame really


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## heineken4u (Sep 1, 2018)

I wanted to love her and bring her home with me. But she just wasn't pushing all my right buttons. 

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

heineken4u said:


> I wanted to love her and bring her home with me. But she just wasn't pushing all my right buttons.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


That is ok . I first thought of this one on a trip to Osaka in Jan 2017 and didn't pull the trigger until a couple months ago...took a while but it is a great piece.
200m water resistance 
SD
Sporty since i don't do dressy
Bracelet is very well made and the clasp is very nice but man I wish I could have a few mm extension especially w warmer temps showing up
Best of all I paid 4500 bucks for it and I didn't have to wait three years .

So to center this back on the conversation at 4500 there is no comparison to the new LX. While the LXs look beefy and well made clearly they are not at Gs level so my guess is for this all thing to make Gs look better and more attractive to buyers and also bring up interest by these same buyers on the LX sportier models (for after the dust settles and price drop to around 4000) which are superbly made tool watches.

Now if they could make the LX in 40/42 tops and much much thinner then I think they would do very well especially considering the Rolex drought


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

GrussGott said:


> And you know this, bro, because you have first-hand inside knowledge of the Seiko businesses? or because you're guessing? Cause it sounds like the latter.
> 
> I've worked for F10 international companies for 25 years, done a LOT business with Japanese corporations and, while i'm speculating, this sure as hell looks like separate business units doing their own thing. Odd that you think corporate operations "make sense" ... I've never seen that.
> 
> *TLDR*: Prospex LX is either foolish strategy or corporate incompetence ... and I'm an Occom's razor guy, so I'm going with incompetence, but we can't rule out your guess of foolish strategy either.


Western management experience does not translate well across the Pacific. The Japanese do not organize that way.

Seiko has had upmarket lines for decades. More recently they had the galante and ananta. The brightz line produced many hits but remain Japan only. They also have the astron.

Unfortunately for seiko the releases that hog attention in the west are their oversized sports watches. Eye catching prices for eye catching watches. Then again, they have something no one else can copy or compete against.

The main reason why it is 5k and more is because a rolex sub today is 8.5k and these watches are competitive.

We need new frames of references when it comes to seiko pricing. Fifteen years ago, the price of a rolex sub was 4.25k. Those days are not coming back.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

RPF said:


> Western management experience does not translate well across the Pacific. The Japanese do not organize that way.
> 
> Seiko has had upmarket lines for decades. More recently they had the galante and ananta. The brightz line produced many hits but remain Japan only. They also have the astron.
> 
> ...


I said it before and I'll say it again. GS is moving up market and Seiko is going to move into the place of GS.

I will say it's an interesting idea being put out here about how companies are organized and there's a LOT of truth to that being normal. However Seiko is a much better run company than a lot of these F100 companies. Being large is normally the result of mergers and a lot of well luck. More and more companies are trying to centralized goals, management, resources, etc. There's just no way a company seiko's size decided to just said "have at it" to a few lines and decided they didn't care about the overall direction of the company.

These aren't the first watches from seiko moving into the GS range but doing so due to their massive size and clear higher costs.


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## Alex_TA (May 7, 2013)

Good thread, many clever people but no answers. 
I'm not interested in corporate culture analysis. As a customer, I* (or any other guy) want to understand: why shouldn't I buy SNR029 but SBGA231, for the same price with all the same features? 

Branding? Seriously, let's face it: both have pretty bad retained value. But it's much more fun to answer the famous question "How much?" - "Yes, it's $5,000 Seiko!" and to enjoy the shock


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

Alex_TA said:


> Good thread, many clever people but no answers.
> I'm not interested in corporate culture analysis. As a customer, I* (or any other guy) want to understand: why shouldn't I buy SNR029 but SBGA231, for the same price with all the same features?
> 
> Branding? Seriously, let's face it: both have pretty bad retained value. But it's much more fun to answer the famous question "How much?" - "Yes, it's $5,000 Seiko!" and to enjoy the shock


Rolex uses essentially the same movement through much of its range with variations such as date and shock absorption. Entire new lines are created with minor bracelet variations and perhaps a soft iron shield. The price differences are eye catching because the specs are very similar.

Why buy a milgauss when the oyster perp is 95% the same watch?

With the lx seiko can explore new markets by tapping different sales channels and demographics. These high price seikos are still designed and marketed with the affluent Japanese in mind.

We will do well to remember seiko has always made their best watches for the Japanese speaking. Us English speakers are an afterthought, though that has changed with gs in recent years.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

RPF said:


> Rolex uses essentially the same movement through much of its range with variations such as date and shock absorption. *Entire new lines are created with minor bracelet variations and perhaps a soft iron shield.* The price differences are eye catching because the specs are very similar.
> 
> Why buy a milgauss when the oyster perp is 95% the same watch?
> 
> ...


Not to mention Rolex add a new bezel insert colour and people on this very forum pay a premium for it*. I am not sure why but each to their own.

*and also go onto long waiting lists.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

sonyman99 said:


> I've been lurking (and posting) here on and off for a few years now but don't yet own a GS watch. I do own Seiko watches and can't fault their quality. I have seen GS watches in the flesh both in the Seiko Boutique in London and also in Beverly Hills where I very nearly pulled the trigger on a Snowflake. We arrived though just as the store in California was closing on the day before we travelled home so it all felt a bit rushed.
> 
> I've read many posts from people saying things like, "Isn't Grand Seiko just another Seiko with the word Grand on it for a lot more money?" Although I don't own a GS, as I say I have seen and tried them and I can see the finishing, the polishing and the attention to detail is superb, and then there are the movements like the Spring Drive. So as a complete package I can see the very clear lines and difference between Seiko and Grand Seiko, perhaps until now with the new LX Line.
> 
> ...


No but you are entitled to your opinion.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

sonyman99 said:


> I've been lurking (and posting) here on and off for a few years now but don't yet own a GS watch. I do own Seiko watches and can't fault their quality. I have seen GS watches in the flesh both in the Seiko Boutique in London and also in Beverly Hills where I very nearly pulled the trigger on a Snowflake. We arrived though just as the store in California was closing on the day before we travelled home so it all felt a bit rushed.
> 
> I've read many posts from people saying things like, "Isn't Grand Seiko just another Seiko with the word Grand on it for a lot more money?" Although I don't own a GS, as I say I have seen and tried them and I can see the finishing, the polishing and the attention to detail is superb, and then there are the movements like the Spring Drive. So as a complete package I can see the very clear lines and difference between Seiko and Grand Seiko, perhaps until now with the new LX Line.
> 
> ...


I guess that one of the things you neglected to mention is that on the LX series only the flat surfaces of the case like the lugs or parts thereof are zaratsu finished. As in it's simple and cheap* to do. Whereas GS also has zaratsu finishing on the curvature of the case. Apparently that's not so simple to do.

*I've been lurking (and posting) here on and off for a few years
*

Why am I even bothering to reply to this? It's mildly amusing I guess.

*well cheaper perhaps. I await the OP to educate me further.


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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

DustinS said:


> I said it before and I'll say it again. GS is moving up market and Seiko is going to move into the place of GS. There's just no way a company seiko's size decided to just said "have at it" to a few lines and decided they didn't care about the overall direction of the company.


This is good speculation and given SWC is having GSA run the launch, it means, if true, SWC believes this is a viable US market strategy.

As for "companies seiko's size" deciding to "just have at it", it's exactly their size that makes it 99% probable this is exactly how they operate. I used to work in consulting and if you've ever seen the TV show House of Lies ... well it ain't small companies that hire strategy consultants, and they don't get out of bed for < $5M; the Park Hyatt Tokyo is probably 70% consultants (btw, the pool there is fabulous and the bar has one of the best views in Tokyo).

I've never worked for SWC but I do know it's a subsidiary of Seiko Group which means it's an M-Form company (versus, say, Apple which is U-form, not to mention they have GSA) which means it has competing business units with their own P&Ls.

Moving Seiko up-market might work, and SWC (or GSA) may have market data indicating it (and G-shock is, Garmin is trying, etc), but I'd be surprised. Further, obviously the decision to make $5k prospex was made awhile ago, and maybe they didn't consider the economy (or believe $5k watches are insulted from recession) ...

In any event, if few people here would buy a $5k Seiko then GSA will have to count on noobs and casual shoppers ... and on the surface, that doesn't seem smart.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

GrussGott said:


> This is good speculation and given SWC is having GSA run the launch, it means, if true, SWC believes this is a viable US market strategy.
> 
> As for "companies seiko's size" deciding to "just have at it", it's exactly their size that makes it 99% probable this is exactly how they operate. I used to work in consulting and if you've ever seen the TV show House of Lies ... well it ain't small companies that hire strategy consultants, and they don't get out of bed for < $5M; the Park Hyatt Tokyo is probably 70% consultants (btw, the pool there is fabulous and the bar has one of the best views in Tokyo).
> 
> ...


Looks like the movements are part Seiko Precision Inc. Which also is a subsidy of Seiko Holdings. Structured outside of SWC (which is also a subsidy of Seiko Holdings).

Here's the answer to the questions

"In 2017, a new chapter in the Grand Seiko story opened with the launch of a wider collection and with establishment of *Grand Seiko as a fully independent brand.* *Grand Seiko Corporation of America is the first independent Grand Seiko company in the world.* It will market Grand Seiko through its existing network of retail partners, through the Grand Seiko Boutique in Beverley Hills and through the Seiko Boutiques in New York and Miami. Further plans for an increased retail presence and other marketing initiatives will be unveiled in New York in November."

"Grand Seiko Corporation of America was incorporated under the law of New York State and is a wholly owned subsidiary of Seiko Watch Corporation."

I take this to mean GS got out from under Seiko.(explains removing Seiko from the dial) And the new Seiko pricing is because they are competing with GS now. Both probably buy their movements from Seiko Precision Inc. ;-) --nailed it!!!


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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

Fun update - I poked around and *@DustinS* *is right* and I'm wrong, just heard the following stuff:

** The CEO of SWC, Hittori, is also the CEO of Seiko Holdings* (SWC is ~50% sales of Seiko Holdings)
- The new SWC product and brand strategy is from him
- Hittori is a descendent of the Seiko founder
- Seiko Holdings, however, is a subsidiary of The Seiko Group (thus still subject to that mothership)

** Hittori believes the mid-priced watch market is a loser:*
- it's getting crushed by e-commerce and declining brick & mortars sales
- it's been taken over by quartz fashion watches and smart watches (eg. Apple)
- Seiko mid-price numbers aren't good, haven't been for awhile
- Hittori believes Seiko can no longer be dominant in the mid-priced market
- Funny enough, this was the recommendation of a strategy consultancy hired a few years ago (see my post above)

** Hittori believes the right choice is bringing Seiko's manufacturing capabilities into the luxury segment*
- he believes they can beat the swiss on bottom line costs for better quality
- he believes millennials will accept Seiko in the luxury market
- he believes the latest sales data proves this out (GS is killing it in Japan and growing in the US)
- Hittori believes the future is millennials so the time to move Seiko up-market has to be now

** Hittori is repositioning brands globally, starting in the US this year*
- Grand Seiko is premium luxury
- Prospex is affordable luxury
- This move actually began in 2016

Anyway, many of you already know all this and I'm catching up but thought i'd share what I heard ...

this is a BIG bet and I think their branding will fail, but I hope it doesn't!


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

GrussGott said:


> Fun update - I poked around and *@DustinS* *is right* and I'm wrong, just heard the following stuff:
> 
> ** The CEO of SWC, Hittori, is also the CEO of Seiko Holdings* (SWC is ~50% sales of Seiko Holdings)
> - The new SWC product and brand strategy is from him
> ...


Kudos for manning up. Yeah. He sits atop the Seiko pile. Interesting he's only listed as a director of Seiko Precision. And that they have 2 presidents.

I figured some of these Seiko changes were coming about because of the smart watch market and their price points. I don't know about the strategy. They have a lot of money and connections. It will be fun to see.


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## Rissei (Jul 23, 2015)

GrussGott said:


> Fun update - I poked around and *@DustinS* *is right* and I'm wrong, just heard the following stuff:
> 
> ** The CEO of SWC, Hittori, is also the CEO of Seiko Holdings* (SWC is ~50% sales of Seiko Holdings)
> - The new SWC product and brand strategy is from him
> ...


Good post, except it's "Hattori," not "Hittori." Perhaps a sign that the re-branding isn't that successful ;-).

Too bad Seiko's international focus didn't come earlier, when it had (IMO) better looking Prospex models with better calibers (4S/6S series). The SBDS series is great value for the money.


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

eblackmo said:


> sonyman99 said:
> 
> 
> > I've been lurking (and posting) here on and off for a few years now but don't yet own a GS watch. I do own Seiko watches and can't fault their quality. I have seen GS watches in the flesh both in the Seiko Boutique in London and also in Beverly Hills where I very nearly pulled the trigger on a Snowflake. We arrived though just as the store in California was closing on the day before we travelled home so it all felt a bit rushed.
> ...


I agree with you 100%. I am.


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

eblackmo said:


> sonyman99 said:
> 
> 
> > I've been lurking (and posting) here on and off for a few years now but don't yet own a GS watch. I do own Seiko watches and can't fault their quality. I have seen GS watches in the flesh both in the Seiko Boutique in London and also in Beverly Hills where I very nearly pulled the trigger on a Snowflake. We arrived though just as the store in California was closing on the day before we travelled home so it all felt a bit rushed.
> ...


Respectfully I didn't neglect to mention anything. I openly stated "from my minimal research" Neglect would insinuate I failed to mentioned something to which I had sound knowledge, hence my question to those more knowledgable.

Personally I feel that justifying value due to a greater area of Zaratsu polishing is perhaps justifying your own purchase but is in my view clutching at straws a little.

What is a little amusing is that you question and patronise my knowledge and question why you even afford me the privilege of a response and follow it with "apparently" that's not so simple to do. A little ironic.

Good evening sir. I won't "bother" to respond again.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

GrussGott said:


> ** Hittori is repositioning brands globally, starting in the US this year*
> - Grand Seiko is premium luxury
> - Prospex is affordable luxury


Is "premium luxury" defined as the $7-10k+ USD range? As a millennial myself, I was happy with GS in the "affordable luxury" range (thinking $2-6k USD). Even as the biggest Seiko/GS fan, it sucks to be out priced from the GS range, though I suppose the bet is banking on wage increases long term, developing purchase habits etc....Wage increases being something that millennials AREN'T seeing, however LOL. And quite honestly, I'm the only millennial I know remotely into Seiko/GS or watches in general. Here's hoping the strategy works.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

GrussGott said:


> This is good speculation and given SWC is having GSA run the launch, it means, if true, SWC believes this is a viable US market strategy.
> 
> As for "companies seiko's size" deciding to "just have at it", it's exactly their size that makes it 99% probable this is exactly how they operate. I used to work in consulting and if you've ever seen the TV show House of Lies ... well it ain't small companies that hire strategy consultants, and they don't get out of bed for < $5M; the Park Hyatt Tokyo is probably 70% consultants (btw, the pool there is fabulous and the bar has one of the best views in Tokyo).
> 
> ...


5k Seiko's aren't new as others keep pointing out. Grand seiko is an extremely limited concept. They can only minimally increase production volume so the only way to increase profits is to move up market. The non GS lines can improve quality while moving up market AND they can produce them in greater volume. Seiko has to think about the next 20 years and the 50-1k watch market is NOT where the profits will be.

This is an extremely obvious strategy and one they have been doing for some time now. The smart decision they made this time vs in the past is they brought the entry level Presage over to help boost demand at higher but not high price points and now they're bringing in more expensive models there. Mean while Grand Seiko just did a Basel world where they only released 1 watch that I can think of that was less than 5 figures.

As for seiko and all this consulting stuff...I'm sure seiko watches run independent from seiko group to a degree. The watch group however is by no means so large that their is no centralized planning. This move is too clearly a part of everything seiko has been doing since they rebranded GS that the idea seems almost comical. This has been the clear direction of the brand since the GS rebrand and the pressage line moved to the US. The only odd part is how slow GS has been to push up their prices on 2017 models. But that seems to just be how seiko has always been. Slow to move existing pieces up, but their new pieces clearly paint the long term direction.

FYI they're as a group about 100 million in net income a quarter...they're hardly some super mega company if my 30 seconds of googling isn't misleading me.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

ahonobaka said:


> Is "premium luxury" defined as the $7-10k+ USD range? As a millennial myself, I was happy with GS in the "affordable luxury" range (thinking $2-6k USD). Even as the biggest Seiko/GS fan, it sucks to be out priced from the GS range, though I suppose the bet is banking on wage increases long term, developing purchase habits etc....Wage increases being something that millennials AREN'T seeing, however LOL. And quite honestly, I'm the only millennial I know remotely into Seiko/GS or watches in general. Here's hoping the strategy works.


As another "millennial" who has a few GSs....they make very very few watches a year. As they expand globally either quality drops or they have to increase prices. The goal is to prove to people they're a brand of that quality. If they fail then the brand will go away either way. There's no value in seiko having highly paid master watch makers if they're selling cheaper watches. The goal is to increase the quality of seiko so seiko is making "rolex" quality while GS pushed towards the trinity. It's just a math equation...


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

GrussGott said:


> Fun update - I poked around and *@DustinS* *is right* and I'm wrong, just heard the following stuff:
> 
> ** The CEO of SWC, Hittori, is also the CEO of Seiko Holdings* (SWC is ~50% sales of Seiko Holdings)
> - The new SWC product and brand strategy is from him
> ...


lol, rare someone who comes here and is shall we say, so "sure of himself" admits to being off at least on what they're doing. Anyway respect for that and wish I'd not made my last comment but I did so I'll leave it.

Anyway why do you feel it will fail? As I guess their deomgraphic all be it an OLD version of that demographic and someone who'd got 4 seiko watches (2 GS). The brand I think speaks to younger consumers rather well. They have a stigma of being cheap with those in their late 30's to maybe mid 60's, but people older than that remember ultra expensive quartz and people younger than that really haven't been exposed to the brand at all. Pressage pieces are the first seiko's I've ever seen in a mall, competing well with entry level swiss. This move might be "too fast" but only if they're pushing out huge volumes and that's highly unlikely. This is just putting the idea out there so the creep can start.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

Alex_TA said:


> Good thread, many clever people but no answers.
> I'm not interested in corporate culture analysis. As a customer, I* (or any other guy) want to understand: why shouldn't I buy SNR029 but SBGA231, for the same price with all the same features?
> 
> Branding? Seriously, let's face it: both have pretty bad retained value. But it's much more fun to answer the famous question "How much?" - "Yes, it's $5,000 Seiko!" and to enjoy the shock


GS's don't have bad value retention unless compared to 2 companies. Unless markets are completely different. GS's still can be had with decent discounts and people I feel never want to take that into account on resale value (though my last GS I paid way too much for...so maybe I blundered there).


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## Prince Escalus (Jan 14, 2017)

sonyman99 said:


> Equally I suppose it could be the complete opposite in that the Prospex LX range are very expensive Seiko watches.


Yep I've had a quick look at this range and prospective pricing, its an odd move by Seiko

Personally I am not spending GS money on a Prospex, cannot speak for others, but also cannot think of anyone who would

Seem over priced to me, Spring Drive or not


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

Prince Escalus said:


> Yep I've had a quick look at this range and prospective pricing, its an odd move by Seiko
> 
> Personally I am not spending GS money on a Prospex, cannot speak for others, but also cannot think of anyone who would
> 
> Seem over priced to me, Spring Drive or not


A decade ago people wouldn't fathom paying over $10k for most stainless steel Rolex models. Nowadays they don't even bat an eyelid. All it took was time and patience. Give it time, people will come around.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

Prince Escalus said:


> Yep I've had a quick look at this range and prospective pricing, its an odd move by Seiko
> 
> Personally I am not spending GS money on a Prospex, cannot speak for others, but also cannot think of anyone who would
> 
> Seem over priced to me, Spring Drive or not


A decade ago people wouldn't fathom paying over $10k for most stainless steel Rolex models. Nowadays they don't even bat an eyelid. All it took was time and patience. Give it time, people will come around. Including you.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

sonyman99 said:


> Respectfully I didn't neglect to mention anything. I openly stated "from my minimal research" * Neglect would insinuate I failed to mentioned something to which I had sound knowledge, hence my question to those more knowledgable.*
> 
> Personally I feel that justifying value due to a greater area of Zaratsu polishing is perhaps justifying your own purchase but is in my view clutching at straws a little.
> 
> ...


Really? Does practicing law on WUS pay well? I am not making fun of you.

Seriously dude. Don't you have anything better to do with your life? I mean you are trolling (badly) on a watch forum like it means something in reality. That's really sad dude.

I suppose to you it probably does mean something. In reality. Does it make you feel intelligent? do you get self esteem from it? If so that's pretty messed up dude. It's not real. It's just on the internet. IRL most of these guys would eat you for breakfast.


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## adnj (Aug 22, 2010)

sonyman99 said:


> Personally I feel that justifying value due to a greater area of Zaratsu polishing is perhaps justifying your own purchase...


Typically, the rationalization of purchase is what we all do.

In my marketing experience, people always buy a thing because it is what they want but do not usually know (or are even interested in knowing) the underlying reason.

People buy what they like whether it is logical or not.

Sent from my LG-V520 using Tapatalk


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

DustinS said:


> *As for seiko and all this consulting stuff...I'm sure seiko watches run independent from seiko group to a degree*. *The watch group however is by no means so large that their is no centralized planning. * This move is too clearly a part of everything seiko has been doing since they rebranded GS that the idea seems almost comical. This has been the clear direction of the brand since the GS rebrand and the pressage line moved to the US. The only odd part is how slow GS has been to push up their prices on 2017 models. But that seems to just be how seiko has always been. Slow to move existing pieces up, but their new pieces clearly paint the long term direction.
> 
> FYI they're as a group about 100 million in net income a quarter...they're hardly some super mega company if my 30 seconds of googling isn't misleading me.


How are you sure? Do you have experience in a company were the board of directors work their butts off strategizing for ALL the products they produce? Why have managers and division heads? The goal of corporation is to increase shareholder profit. That doesn't necessarily mean selling more watches. That's why Guss several posts ago said corporations don't always make sense. You're working this problem based on your wallet/consumer wants and with obviously no real experience. All corporations are bound by laws and are accountable to their shareholders.

The only centralized planning that took place was to spin GS off as an independent company...meaning completely separated from Seiko. The only thing in common is they just so happened to be owned by the same company.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

TellingTime said:


> How are you sure? Do you have experience in a company were the board of directors work their butts off strategizing for ALL the products they produce? Why have managers and division heads? The goal of corporation is to increase shareholder profit. That doesn't necessarily mean selling more watches. That's why Guss several posts ago said corporations don't always make sense. You're working this problem based on your wallet/consumer wants and with obviously no real experience. All corporations are bound by laws and are accountable to their shareholders.
> 
> The only centralized planning that took place was to spin GS off as an independent company...meaning completely separated from Seiko. The only thing in common is they just so happened to be owned by the same company.


Not to mention Seiko make printers, robots etc. How does that have anything to do with watches? Geezus. Plus we all know the Japanese are completely useless at running businesses. I mean just look at their country.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

TellingTime said:


> How are you sure? Do you have experience in a company were the board of directors work their butts off strategizing for ALL the products they produce? Why have managers and division heads? The goal of corporation is to increase shareholder profit. That doesn't necessarily mean selling more watches. That's why Guss several posts ago said corporations don't always make sense. You're working this problem based on your wallet/consumer wants and with obviously no real experience. *All corporations are bound by laws* and are accountable to their shareholders.
> 
> The only centralized planning that took place was to spin GS off as an independent company...meaning completely separated from Seiko. The only thing in common is they just so happened to be owned by the same company.


OK. Coming from a defence contracting background that statement is fracking hilarious and just a touch naive.

Not that I am expecting the OP to have had any exposure to how the real world works. Like working for a company that has a slush fund. For paying bribes and when they get busted they just get a slap on the wrist and it's business as usual. What do you think is going to happen? The CEO is going to prison. Nah. That's just how business is done.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

This is completely OT so I apologize.

But one thing I find particularly sad and pathetic. Is when some loser creates multiple accounts on a forum and then spends years building up post histories so they can win. Completely pointless arguments on the internet. Why can't they generate self esteem like a normal person?


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

eblackmo said:


> OK. Coming from a defence contracting background that statement is fracking hilarious and just a touch naive.
> 
> Not that I am expecting the OP to have had any exposure to how the real world works. Like working for a company that has a slush fund. For paying bribes and when they get busted they just get a slap on the wrist and it's business as usual. What do you think is going to happen? The CEO is going to prison. Nah. That's just how business is done.


Ha. There's nothing naive about it. It's a fact. But I understand what you're getting at. It will fly over most heads here as their analysis is thinking GS wants to bring Seiko up market and base pricing off of each other.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

T1meout said:


> A decade ago people wouldn't fathom paying over $10k for most stainless steel Rolex models. Nowadays they don't even bat an eyelid. All it took was time and patience. Give it time, people will come around. Including you.


I'm going with inflation as the main driving force.


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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

DustinS said:


> ]Anyway *why do you feel it will fail? * As I guess their deomgraphic all be it an OLD version of that demographic and someone who'd got 4 seiko watches (2 GS).


Well it's funny - obviously originally i was shooting from the hip and since i'm no stranger to corp product strategy Prospex LX sounded like normal dysfunction ... however the more i was typing about the timing and running it out of GSA the more it sounded like an "answer first" strategy consulting gig and I got curious! So i pinged around and sure enough it WAS a consulting gig!

Which is also the answer of why I think it'll fail ... and that's not to ding strategy consultants, but this feels like good data/analysis (mid-priced sector being overtaken by fashion, smartwatches) combined with what the client wanted to hear "Seiko is a premium luxury brand!".

Now, I could be wrong for the 2nd time here, and maybe BCGMkBain focus-grouped millennial customers, and they were open to luxury Seiko ... but I wouldn't be. I'm a Gen-Xer and I can't see buying a $5k seiko and even GS is tough.

The exception for me would be if they turned it into an experience ... Panerai is trying this with their $45k diver watch, Zenith with their $45k 50th El primero anniversary but that's too expensive. Do something cool like Japanese delivery (similar to Euro Delivery for German cars): you show up, get a factory tour, get a nice presentation and walk-through, maybe a watch-museum tour ... make it a thing. Then maybe.

But as is, it could be the Gen-Xer in me, but I don't see Seiko making it as a luxury brand and I'd wager the consultants thought that too.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

GrussGott said:


> Well it's funny - obviously originally i was shooting from the hip and since i'm no stranger to corp product strategy Prospex LX sounded like normal dysfunction ... however the more i was typing about the timing and running it out of GSA the more it sounded like an "answer first" strategy consulting gig and I got curious! So i pinged around and sure enough it WAS a consulting gig!
> 
> Which is also the answer of why I think it'll fail ... and that's not to ding strategy consultants, but this feels like good data/analysis (mid-priced sector being overtaken by fashion, smartwatches) combined with what the client wanted to hear "Seiko is a premium luxury brand!".
> 
> ...


Being a Gen-Xer as well who been wearing watches since grade school, I'm going with nostalgia. I also like the idea of differentiating the experience in some manner as well. I also thought it would be cool to include pictures of your watch being made.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

TellingTime said:


> How are you sure? Do you have experience in a company were the board of directors work their butts off strategizing for ALL the products they produce? Why have managers and division heads? The goal of corporation is to increase shareholder profit. That doesn't necessarily mean selling more watches. That's why Guss several posts ago said corporations don't always make sense. You're working this problem based on your wallet/consumer wants and with obviously no real experience. All corporations are bound by laws and are accountable to their shareholders.
> 
> The only centralized planning that took place was to spin GS off as an independent company...meaning completely separated from Seiko. The only thing in common is they just so happened to be owned by the same company.


Yes, I'm sure the CEO tells his directs "run wild and push that culture down".

No- the board sets goals. those goals are pushed down from the CEO to his business leaders, he delegates performance to centralized leaders (CFO, COO, CIO etc). That message is pushed down and those central hubs work with lower and lower level executives, directors, managers, analysts, sales staff etc to meet build a plan to meet those goals. The plan is set and then rolled back up and presented back to the guys at the top. During that process you'll be darn sure that management looks for risks of canalization from different groups...sometimes that's deemed ok. Normally it is at least pushed back down as a reduction of expected results, and perhaps more is asked to meet the goal. This process goes on until management is in agreement. If you're in a line of business and aren't seeing the global perspective perhaps you miss that's happening, but be it large F500's based purely in the US or large multi nationals...everywhere I've worked did this. Sure there are businesses or lines or whatever they're called that seem way too independent at times, but they absolutely are told how things need to be.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

GrussGott said:


> Well it's funny - obviously originally i was shooting from the hip and since i'm no stranger to corp product strategy Prospex LX sounded like normal dysfunction ... however the more i was typing about the timing and running it out of GSA the more it sounded like an "answer first" strategy consulting gig and I got curious! So i pinged around and sure enough it WAS a consulting gig!
> 
> Which is also the answer of why I think it'll fail ... and that's not to ding strategy consultants, but this feels like good data/analysis (mid-priced sector being overtaken by fashion, smartwatches) combined with what the client wanted to hear "Seiko is a premium luxury brand!".
> 
> ...


Millennials don't know much more about seiko than they make watches. Most won't be looking to even get into luxery watches for another 20 years if history repeats.

I can say GS sold me my first luxury watch purchase and yes I had it delivered as there was no store near me (I did have to talk on the phone which was a horrifying experience, phones have voice?). The seiko brand name took about a month of watch shopping to completely lose any stigma for me and I'd guess most younger watch buyers know the name, but don't know much else nor do they see seiko as a cheap brand as I doubt they have any idea what they cost.

The biggest concern I have is that they are able to maintain "value for money" which imo is where they are winning over younger buyers.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

TellingTime said:


> I'm going with inflation as the main driving force.


Comments like this always blow my mind. Even a very basic understanding of rolex price increases and inflation would tell anyone that's crazy.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

DustinS said:


> Comments like this always blow my mind. Even a very basic understanding of rolex price increases and inflation would tell anyone that's crazy.
> 
> View attachment 14015987


I still say inflation.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

TellingTime said:


> I still say inflation.


And seiko is owned by elfs from mars....


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

DustinS said:


> And seiko is owned by elfs from mars....


Sure that's not their advertising expense graph.


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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

TellingTime said:


> Being a Gen-Xer as well who been wearing watches since grade school, I'm going with nostalgia. I also like the idea of differentiating the experience in some manner as well.* I also thought it would be cool to include pictures of your watch being made*.


This this! Think if they had video of parts of the process from start to final polishing and delivery to you! Such a great idea ...


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

DustinS said:


> TellingTime said:
> 
> 
> > I still say inflation.
> ...


Can you back this statement up with any firm evidence?


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

GrussGott said:


> This this! Think if they had video of parts of the process from start to final polishing and delivery to you! Such a great idea ...


Thank you! For the marketing fans, you could call it something like creation/birth of your watch. Take snapshots or video tied to the serial numbers as it progresses through the stages. Have people register and download the files to their smartphones/desktops. That way when you're sitting next to the guy with a Rolex on at the airport lounge, you have something to talk about.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

TellingTime said:


> Ha. There's nothing naive about it. It's a fact. But I understand what you're getting at. It will fly over most heads here as their *analysis is thinking GS wants to bring Seiko up market and base pricing off of each other.*


OK then. Just remember having multiple sock puppets and being a troll on a watch forum makes you a legend in reality. You must get a lot of pvssy.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

TellingTime said:


> Sure that's not their advertising expense graph.


lol, that is completely possible!


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

eblackmo said:


> OK then. Just remember having multiple sock puppets and being a troll on a watch forum makes you a legend in reality. You must get a lot of pvssy.


My didgeridoo does well. Thanks for asking.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

BrianBinFL said:


> I just wanted to share the information about the decoy effect because if Seiko executed a little decoy effect to make GS more attractive it wouldn't be the dumbest thing they ever did.


I think there might be something to your theory. It's a bit like Timeless's post about the new Grand Seikos,

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/every-new-grand-seiko-baselworld-2019-a-4917153.html

and how the $76K SBGZ001 and the $57K SBGZ003 make the $25K SBGY002 and $7.6K SBGY003 seem like bargains in comparison. It might also serve as a form of anchoring.


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## GrussGott (Nov 15, 2012)

mleok said:


> *It might also serve as a form of anchoring*.


this


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## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

mleok said:


> ...
> 
> and how the $76K SBGZ001 and the $57K SBGZ003 make the $25K SBGY002 and $7.6K SBGY003 seem like bargains in comparison. It might also serve as a form of anchoring.


Like how watches is a form of anchoring for all my other hobbies?


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

mleok said:


> I think there might be something to your theory. It's a bit like Timeless's post about the new Grand Seikos,
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/every-new-grand-seiko-baselworld-2019-a-4917153.html
> 
> and how the $76K SBGZ001 and the $57K SBGZ003 make the $25K SBGY002 and $7.6K SBGY003 seem like bargains in comparison. It might also serve as a form of anchoring.


Many swiss brands pursue this line of pricing.

There is a multiple difference between the platine Daytona and the entry level steel model. And guess what, they even share the exact same movement. All non le and made for many years.

Seiko on hindsight offers more value with their offerings.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

RPF said:


> Many swiss brands pursue this line of pricing.
> 
> There is a multiple difference between the platine Daytona and the entry level steel model. And guess what, they even share the exact same movement. All non le and made for many years.
> 
> Seiko on hindsight offers more value with their offerings.


Is that truly the standard we're applying now? Seiko offers compelling value because they're not as overpriced as Rolex?


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

mleok said:


> Is that truly the standard we're applying now? Seiko offers compelling value because they're not as overpriced as Rolex?


Given GS is a low production product that can't really scale and that they're trying to move their non GS sports watches into the 5k range. I'd say it's pretty likely the brand strategy is very much "just be a better value than rolex" as the push upwards knowing that they don't need a huge number of people to buy into what they're selling. I personally hate that, but I don't think it's something we should dismiss. And as a proud owner of 2 GS and a huge fan...I can't say I'm not pretty disappointed in where they are going. I also have to say, I feel these increasingly more expensive watches were at first at least offering more in terms of at least case finishing or complexity but this year they have just completely jumped the shark.


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## Galaga (Jun 22, 2017)

Nothing wrong with this LX range. I reckon it’s a real winner. So what if it asking GS prices? The watches are amazing.


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

mleok said:


> Is that truly the standard we're applying now? Seiko offers compelling value because they're not as overpriced as Rolex?


I'm saying it's industrial practice. Seiko is merely doing what the competition does. It's not just Rolex is it? Tissot has $5,000 quartz watches, AP a ton of Royal Oaks from five figures to high six figures... Give it a study, there are many brands with 20-30x multiples between entry level and their top products.


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## rdoder (Jul 13, 2013)

Today I talked with a watch store owner that sells affordable Seikos. He told me going forward:

-Seiko 5 is no longer made or will no longer come to Canada (I think he meant the former, but I'm not sure).
-Seiko prices start at ~C$500 with Presage and Prospex.
-Seiko LX will likely not be sold in Canada, because there's no demand for it. At those prices, general public buy e.g. Rolex, Omega instead.

I'm not sure if Seiko Astron will keep coming to Canada or not. I assume they will? In which case, "SEIKO" goes up to ~C$1-3k with Astron.

So at least in Canada, current "SEIKO" prices are ~$500 and go up to ~$1-3k, and in no way devalues current GS prices at ~C$3-13k (MSRP), with no Seiko LX in-store.


On one end, there are people that won't buy GS because it's got "Seiko" in it, in which case, they will not buy GS, whether Seiko LX exists or not. So to them, Seiko LX does not devalue GS, because "Seiko" in GS already does that.

In the middle, there are people that said at LX's prices, they might as well buy GS, so to them, no, Seiko LX does not devalue GS.

On the other end, there are die-hard Seiko fanatics that given enough pocket money will buy anything Seiko, so for them, no, Seiko LX does not devalue GS.

Therefore, Seiko LX does not devalue GS.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

IMO, if you think the LX and new GS models aren't worth their asking price, you quite simply haven't held them or seen them in person. 

@DustinS, I think you're spot on with the pricing strategy, but get the newer elegance lines and Spring Drive anniversaries in hand and I think you'll change your mind quite quickly.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

ahonobaka said:


> IMO, if you think the LX and new GS models aren't worth their asking price, you quite simply haven't held them or seen them in person.
> 
> @DustinS, I think you're spot on with the pricing strategy, but get the newer elegance lines and Spring Drive anniversaries in hand and I think you'll change your mind quite quickly.


Yeah, I bought a basel GS last year. What I'm seeing...no way are they adding more value in the steel models and I'm with others in that I'm getting a Lange for 20k+. I'm open for a smaller drive watch though if GS ever does that again.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

^You're money and personal preference of course, I can't convince you otherwise, but what are the steel models going for $20k? Really though, check out this years' collections once they hit the AD's and you may be surprised. I expected to be underwhelmed by the blue Iwate elegance for example, but seeing the sapphire, curved hands, new case, finishing etc. it felt a totally fair price for $7400 MSRP, especially given the new movement as well. Most expensive steel is the SBGC231 at $12,900, hardly Lange territory? Next down is $10k, and below it $7500...Even the new blue snowflake costs $5800? I'm confused on the "too expensive" bit because the sub $10k watches are still there, and anything over that in precious metal+, I'm not the target market for anyway.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

ahonobaka said:


> ^You're money and personal preference of course, I can't convince you otherwise, but what are the steel models going for $20k? Really though, check out this years' collections once they hit the AD's and you may be surprised. I expected to be underwhelmed by the blue Iwate elegance for example, but seeing the sapphire, curved hands, new case, finishing etc. it felt a totally fair price for $7400 MSRP, especially given the new movement as well. Most expensive steel is the SBGC231 at $12,900, hardly Lange territory? Next down is $10k, and below it $7500...Even the new blue snowflake costs $5800? I'm confused on the "too expensive" bit because the sub $10k watches are still there, and anything over that in precious metal+, I'm not the target market for anyway.


A Lange Saxonia Thin 37mm in gold has a MSRP of $15K, and there are grey market dealers who can offer it with a full manufacturer's warranty for $12K.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

ahonobaka said:


> ^You're money and personal preference of course, I can't convince you otherwise, but what are the steel models going for $20k? Really though, check out this years' collections once they hit the AD's and you may be surprised. I expected to be underwhelmed by the blue Iwate elegance for example, but seeing the sapphire, curved hands, new case, finishing etc. it felt a totally fair price for $7400 MSRP, especially given the new movement as well. Most expensive steel is the SBGC231 at $12,900, hardly Lange territory? Next down is $10k, and below it $7500...Even the new blue snowflake costs $5800? I'm confused on the "too expensive" bit because the sub $10k watches are still there, and anything over that in precious metal+, I'm not the target market for anyway.


I was focused on just the "new" releases from Basel but....

Blue snowflake - steel instead of titanium and on leather but priced identical to the original? That's over priced. 
SBGY003 - Steel, leather, new movement so that's something. Still 7,800. That's a big increase in price from say the darling of last basel the SBGH267 which had a bracelet and a much more complex case for 6,300. Generally hi beat is GS's premium movement as well, but fair enough this is a new movement. But 1,500 for no bracelet, a simpler case, but a new movement? That means they want 2k for the movement roughly?

SBGR315,317 are fine I guess. Not basel releases and frankly, not all that interesting, but yes priced fine.

The lange comment was directed at the gold models as that was the vast majority of what GS showed at Basel. They only had the 1 steel watch that wasn't the size of a small planet.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

Beautiful Lange...I expect the $12,900 GS to sell for under $10k with full warranty from AD's when all is said and done.

Won't spend too much time on this, it'll all come down to personal preference and what the customer is willing to pay. I think the price is worth it, others won't. It's what makes the world interesting that we all have different tastes and decision making! I do think that GS finishing can rival Lange levels, but we're talking Micro Artist Studio and unfortunately that isn't in the $15k range lol


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

Double trouble, please delete!


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

ahonobaka said:


> Beautiful Lange...I expect the $12,900 GS to sell for under $10k with full warranty from AD's when all is said and done.
> 
> Won't spend too much time on this, it'll all come down to personal preference and what the customer is willing to pay. I think the price is worth it, others won't. It's what makes the world interesting that we all have different tastes and decision making! I do think that GS finishing can rival Lange levels, but we're talking Micro Artist Studio and unfortunately that isn't in the $15k range lol


25% discounts from ADs are getting harder to find with GS. I hope you're right on that one of course, but unless the model is a flop I think that's going to be a difficult thing to do. Not impossible but difficult.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

ahonobaka said:


> Beautiful Lange...I expect the $12,900 GS to sell for under $10k with full warranty from AD's when all is said and done.
> 
> Won't spend too much time on this, it'll all come down to personal preference and what the customer is willing to pay. I think the price is worth it, others won't. It's what makes the world interesting that we all have different tastes and decision making! I do think that GS finishing can rival Lange levels, but we're talking Micro Artist Studio and unfortunately that isn't in the $15k range lol


I agree that it does often come down to personal aesthetic preferences, as they say "de gustibus non est disputandum," in matters of taste, there can be no disputes. We all have our own idiosyncratic reasons for buying or not buying the things that we do. The Micro Artist Studio pieces look impressive, but I wish they offered them in fully mechanical movements, not that it really matters since I don't see myself getting a $50K watch anytime soon, whereas the Lange seems more accessible in price.

I did want to share Tonhao's interesting post on the Japanese aesthetics that underpin the austere Grand Seiko full plate movement designs.



Tonhao said:


> I always wondered why Spring Drives had so much 'plate' but I'm figuring it out one by one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

At the $20K+ price points, there are really only two demographics that will be buying: Those who already have the Lange, etc. and want something different, or the complete diehards with cashflow to spend.

Unfortunately I'm neither LOL


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## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

mleok said:


> A Lange Saxonia Thin 37mm in gold has a MSRP of $15K, and there are grey market dealers who can offer it with a full manufacturer's warranty for $12K.


I can vouch for that Lange. Movement is incredible and sizing is spot on. First one had an eyelash in the dial under a powerful loupe but next one was perfect.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

ahonobaka said:


> At the $20K+ price points, there are really only two demographics that will be buying: Those who already have the Lange, etc. and want something different, or the complete diehards with cashflow to spend.
> 
> Unfortunately I'm neither LOL


The "already" is odd. Also I think people see this 20k range super small. My first watch purchase was a GS. My first 5k+ was another GS. Why should a 20k GS be a second purchase? Why should me as a legit die hard GS fan buy a 20k GS? I didn't become a die hard on that price range... I'm far far more likely to buy 20-30k over the next 5 years on GS's I want that are cheaper, but I've seen a lot of blah GS's lately. Meanwhile I'd Love to get into a GO or Lange. Or both.

Worse yet...I'm a 30 something millennials who if he'd wanted could have gone after one of these patek level GSs. Or could have at least added to a list. And a HUGE GS fan. I think these are idiotic. maybe that's a problem?


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

DustinS said:


> The "already" is odd. Also I think people see this 20k range super small. My first watch purchase was a GS. My first 5k+ was another GS. Why should a 20k GS be a second purchase? Why should me as a legit die hard GS fan buy a 20k GS? I didn't become a die hard on that price range... I'm far far more likely to buy 20-30k over the next 5 years on GS's I want that are cheaper, but I've seen a lot of blah GS's lately. Meanwhile I'd Love to get into a GO or Lange. Or both.
> 
> Worse yet...I'm a 30 something millennials who if he'd wanted could have gone after one of these patek level GSs. Or could have at least added to a list. And a HUGE GS fan. I think these are idiotic. maybe that's a problem?


Entirely reasonable. The GSes that attracted you to the brand are quite different from these statement-making watches. People are probably used to Rolex's set menu, where their steel watches have a 2:1 spread between high and low.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

DustinS said:


> Why should a 20k GS be a second purchase?


Not sure I'm reading you correct; I meant more that anyone considering $20k+ watches likely already has a collection of watches in that price range and below, or they are a diehard GS fan and the $20k+ GS is their grail. The intended audience for these (referring to the precious metals) is limited, and the amount being produced are limited as well.

As a fellow 30 something millennial, I have to say dude! what's up, we are a rare breed


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## Spring-Diver (Jan 26, 2009)

Back to the OP's original question...

Prospex LX series is not in competition with comparable GS "Sport" watches. Especially the divers.

The SNR029 approximate msrp $6,100










SBGH255 msrp $9,600










Are the LX series expensive, yes!

But a $3,500 price difference takes the GS to another level. Exactly where it should be.

Like it or not....everything is getting more expensive.

Cheers 
Shannon

Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


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## westcoastco (Apr 10, 2016)

Spring-Diver said:


> Back to the OP's original question...
> 
> Prospex LX series is not in competition with comparable GS "Sport" watches. Especially the divers.
> 
> ...


Actually the better comparison is SBGA231 which is GS SD titanium diver at US $7100, or $1000 more than the Prospex LX diver. The LX has a fully lumed sapphire bezel, while the GS is black-coated steel (it's hard to find reliable info on this). And the LX looks better, in my subjective opinion. Between the two I would pick the LX, while in the past I have thought about the GS diver.


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## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

westcoastco said:


> Actually the better comparison is SBGA231 which is GS SD titanium diver at US $7100, or $1000 more than the Prospex LX diver. The LX has a fully lumed sapphire bezel, while the GS is black-coated steel (it's hard to find reliable info on this). And the LX looks better, in my subjective opinion. Between the two I would pick the LX, while in the past I have thought about the GS diver.


This. I don't see the issue here. Fancy Ferrari designer, GS movement, GS casing for less than a GS. What's the issue? Lol

They certainly caught my eye.


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## Alex_TA (May 7, 2013)

westcoastco said:


> Actually the better comparison is SBGA231 which is GS SD titanium diver at US $7100, or $1000 more than the Prospex LX diver. The LX has a fully lumed sapphire bezel, while the GS is black-coated steel (it's hard to find reliable info on this). And the LX looks better, in my subjective opinion. Between the two I would pick the LX, while in the past I have thought about the GS diver.


The bezel of SBGA031/231 is aluminum and yes it scratches. I can witness it 

Could you please confirm info about the lumed sapphire bezel on SNR029?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

TellingTime said:


> My didgeridoo does well. Thanks for asking.


Thanks for googling Perth. Hope it was Australia and not Scotland.






I am actually the guy smacking the two sticks together. If you look really closely you can see my GS snowflake.

EDIT: I love my GS snowflake. After trying on a bunch of rolexi I can safely say that that the GS finishing is far superior. I have seen it. With my own two eyes.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

I have to be honest with you guys. Because you know we are watch bros and stuff. I really only care about watches that I like. Have I dropped 10k+ on obscure brands that no one has ever heard* of sure. So what? I am not interested in thinking about people spotting my rolex or patek and thinking that guy must be loaded. Because I am not. I mean I do OK. Like everyone else on this forum. I guess.

However I am more interested in watches for other reasons. Than people thinking that I have money because I wear a rolex, patek or some other swiss brand that has been resting on it's laurels for far to long.

*am I going to do it again? Yes I am. Like everyone I am a part of the herd but when it comes to watches I am free to choose. I don't mind wearing a 10k+ watch which no-one knows what the brand is because I bought it for me. Owning a rolex, patek or other overrated brand does not appeal to me at all.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

630000 yen


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

jmanlay said:


> 630000 yen


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

eblackmo said:


> View attachment 14036639
> View attachment 14036641


Feel the same way


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

My main problem. You kids. With GS dress watches is they all pretty much look the same. The Snowflake has had a lot of thought go into the design including the incorporation of nature. As an example. However how much thought has gone into a rolex? -> How much we can charge a sucker to buy a machine built stainless steel three hander? I have seen a lot of GS and a lot of Rolex and I can assure you that the finishing on a GS is far above Rolex*. That's because GS finishing is done by hand which requires a lot more watchmaking skill.

*I am not just saying that either. It is my own strong held beliefs based on trying on watches from both brands.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

It was a Friday night I decided I was going to go out and get some while playing my didgeridoo. I look like Danny Devito so I knew I was either going to have to wear my Patek or Rolex to attract some attention. I thought about it and realized those bimbos probably wouldn't know what a Patek was so I wore my sub. I rocked up to the bar and dropped my wrist on it. My sub prominently displayed. I could tell the barman was interested.

He said is that a real Rolex? I said yeah it is. That's how much money I have. He said well you must have more money than sense. Paying 10k+ for a SS three hander. I said how dare you. You ignorant plebeian pour me a Macallan 30 year old immediately.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

The night was still young the barman spurning my advances was a bit unsettling so I returned home and put my patek on my other wrist. I returned to the bar and before I knew it I was in a conversation with some broad. She immediately recognized my Rolex and said you must be some kind of big shot! I said sweet cheeks have you ever been with a Rolex owner? 

She said no but you must be so so important and rich! I said tha's right my movement is +/- 2 seconds per day and that's mechanical.

Do you know what I am saying baby cakes?


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

OK. It's amusing the heck out of me. Sorry if it's ruining the bashing of GS in this thread but you people are hilarious and deserve to have the piss taken out of you. 

*Although I do like Lange it's a personal grail brand and JLC etc.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

Just then as I was leaving my apartment to go and buy more beer. A hot blond chick was walking up the stairs with her dog. I went to pat the dog and she says (in a European accent) don't pat the dog she bites. So I go cool and keep walking. However I got the feeling that if I had been wearing a Rolex instead of the GS. She would have been like feel free to pat my pvssy...uh... I mean the dog. Yeah big boy why don't you bring that Rolex back to my place?

Yet another opportunity lost because I am wearing a GS.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

OK. I think I have successfully hijacked this thread. I love my GS snowflake, I love my Benzinger and Dornbleuths. I don't really give a toss about these idiots who are just buying based on brand name. With no real understanding of what real watch making is. If fools want to think Rolex or Patek are some super special brand when compared to low volume hand made German or Japanese brands then good on them.


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## Spring-Diver (Jan 26, 2009)

westcoastco said:


> Actually the better comparison is SBGA231 which is GS SD titanium diver at US $7100, or $1000 more than the Prospex LX diver. The LX has a fully lumed sapphire bezel, while the GS is black-coated steel (it's hard to find reliable info on this). And the LX looks better, in my subjective opinion. Between the two I would pick the LX, while in the past I have thought about the GS diver.


I was just comparing top model Prospex vs GS. Like yourself, I too prefer the LX SNR029 over the GS SBGA231. I'm not a fan of gold accents or the cathedral hour hand.

For me, the SNR031 is just an amazing beautiful black bad a** diver. I'll be gunning for that one next year 

Cheers 
Shannon


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## westcoastco (Apr 10, 2016)

Alex_TA said:


> The bezel of SBGA031/231 is aluminum and yes it scratches. I can witness it
> 
> Could you please confirm info about the lumed sapphire bezel on SNR029?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://monochrome-watches.com/baselworld-2019-seiko-prospex-lx-line-spring-drive-price/ says "On the titanium model, the bezel has a black and blue ceramic insert to differentiate night-time from daytime" and it just visually looks sapphire-capped like the GS rotating bezel GMTs. Could be hardlex too 

I think the overall point of this thread is whether LX devalues GS by introducing very similar and perhaps more desirable models than GS.

It's like VW producing a cool looking Beetle with nicer interior and 800hp engine. It may steal some thunder (and sales) from sister brands Audi and Porsche. VW would not do that, although Seiko is doing it in watches.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

ahonobaka said:


> Not sure I'm reading you correct; I meant more that anyone considering $20k+ watches likely already has a collection of watches in that price range and below, or they are a diehard GS fan and the $20k+ GS is their grail. The intended audience for these (referring to the precious metals) is limited, and the amount being produced are limited as well.
> 
> As a fellow 30 something millennial, I have to say dude! what's up, we are a rare breed


I don't see why one's first 20k watch wouldn't be a GS....assuming like your'e implying, they make a quality watch at that price point equal to other's in the price range. If my first purchase was a GS, all be it just under 5k, why wouldn't someone with say a speedy decide that they love GS and pick one up?


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## digivandig (Jan 16, 2012)

westcoastco said:


> https://monochrome-watches.com/baselworld-2019-seiko-prospex-lx-line-spring-drive-price/ says "On the titanium model, the bezel has a black and blue ceramic insert to differentiate night-time from daytime" and it just visually looks sapphire-capped like the GS rotating bezel GMTs. Could be hardlex too
> 
> I think the overall point of this thread is whether LX devalues GS by introducing very similar and perhaps more desirable models than GS.
> 
> It's like VW producing a cool looking Beetle with nicer interior and 800hp engine. It may steal some thunder (and sales) from sister brands Audi and Porsche. VW would not do that, although Seiko is doing it in watches.


You mean like the Golf R/GTI taking sales from the Audi A3/S3?


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

DustinS said:


> why wouldn't someone with say a speedy decide that they love GS and pick one up?


Did someone call?


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## BigSeikoFan (Feb 15, 2010)

eblackmo said:


> EDIT: I love my GS snowflake. After trying on a bunch of rolexi I can safely say that that the GS finishing is far superior. I have seen it. With my own two eyes.


What he said.


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## BigSeikoFan (Feb 15, 2010)

jmanlay said:


> Feel the same way


"Because I can..."


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

westcoastco said:


> https://monochrome-watches.com/baselworld-2019-seiko-prospex-lx-line-spring-drive-price/ says "On the titanium model, the bezel has a black and blue ceramic insert to differentiate night-time from daytime" and it just visually looks sapphire-capped like the GS rotating bezel GMTs. Could be hardlex too
> 
> I think the overall point of this thread is whether LX devalues GS by introducing very similar and perhaps more desirable models than GS.
> 
> It's like VW producing a cool looking Beetle with nicer interior and 800hp engine. It may steal some thunder (and sales) from sister brands Audi and Porsche. VW would not do that, although Seiko is doing it in watches.


I suspect this series is meant for Japanese markets. Very limited release in the west.

English speakers are not the target audience but it is about time people acknowledge the complexity of the spring drive and how they have failed to identify the huge bargain seiko has put out for 20 years.

The spring drive is probably the single most expensive mechanical movement today, in terms of development cost. 230 patents, 20 years of r&d. They are also amazingly complex. The spring drive chronograph has for example more than twice the number of parts of the famed 4130. That's grand complication level complexity. In fact, if I remember correctly, even the regular time dates have more than the 200 of the Daytona. Compare that to your regular time dates which have 50 to 100.

If the swiss had introduced the spring drive, prices would have been unobtanium. Just look at the defy inventor which doesn't have 230 patents or a huge part count.

And yet the sd gets flak for being a pretender.


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## ljb187 (Nov 6, 2009)

This sub-forum ought to lose its Rolex fetish. In the aggregate it starts to read like insecurity in a “The lady doth protest too much, methinks” sorta way.


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## JoeOBrien (Aug 2, 2013)

Rolex is the nearest comparable brand, even more so since they started using their newer 70-hour movements with skeletonized escapements, etc. Not to mention the brand that most people are going to buy at that price level. So comparisons are inevitable.


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## sidh (Aug 30, 2016)

To bring my cent in the original question of that post , I just see LX models as leading models of the prospex line , if the quality they put in those models are equal or greater than quality they put on some GS , then why the price couldn’t be higher , Seiko is not selling a Sumo at the price of GS, they put outstanding materials, craftman’s skills, design and so on on them. I see this new lines and models as a «.punching«. message from Seiko like : «.don’t choose a line (Presage/Prospex/GS etc.) with quality/prestige hierarchy in mind , just choose the line that most match your way of life and you’ll find in each line a graduation of essential to masterpieces models , we are not a Lego Company, we don’t buy concurrent movement/ watch parts to put in our cases , we are a Manufacture who produces every single piece of the components we put in our timepieces, and we can bring marvels in every product line / segment we want. STOP..»


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

ljb187 said:


> This sub-forum ought to lose its Rolex fetish. In the aggregate it starts to read like insecurity in a "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" sorta way.


Only if Rolex owners stop stressing out about their more expensive watches not being as well finished as a GS. Which I can tell you first hand is the case. Because that screams "insecure".

Although aggregate is a big word. I prefer composition over aggregate or even inheritance in a professional context.

I have handled VC watches for example and wasn't that impressed. I don't mean at an AD either. I personally feel they rest on their laurels to much. As a brand it isn't that impressive. Yet suckers will pay 20k plus for a watch and I don't know why.

If someone can explain to my why a VC overseas with an outsourced movement is worth 20k plus I am willing to listen.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

I am honestly not sure why there is all this hate over a brand that produces haute horology pieces. What has rolex produced? SS models that any watch company like steinhart can do? With off the shelf movements and cases machined in china. Why would anyone pay 10k plus for a watch they could buy from steinhart for under a thousand bucks? I don't get it. When I buy GS I know I am getting a hand finished watch. That a lot of thought has gone into in terms of design. With rolex. Not so much. IT's just another sub.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

Don't know about devalued but I love this one










Essentially my go to watch these days


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

I guess what I am asking is why can high end brands like Patek Phillipe, JLC, A Lange & Sohne, Seiko etc. Produce tourbillons and minute repeaters while Rolex can't? I think it says a lot about Rolex's so called watch making capability.


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

eblackmo said:


> I guess what I am asking is why can high end brands like Patek Phillipe, JLC, A Lange & Sohne, Seiko etc. Produce tourbillons and minute repeaters while Rolex can't? I think it says a lot about Rolex's so called watch making capability.


With all due respect, as good as Seiko are, they don't belong in the same echelons of the other three you mention.

As for your Steinhart reference, I agree. Take a look at Bernhardt also.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

sonyman99 said:


> With all due respect, as good as Seiko are, they don't belong in the same echelons of the other three you mention.
> 
> As for your Steinhart reference, I agree. Take a look at Bernhardt also.


I completely disagree with your opinion. No respect intended. You are simply wrong. Show me Rolex's torbillon.


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

eblackmo said:


> sonyman99 said:
> 
> 
> > With all due respect, as good as Seiko are, they don't belong in the same echelons of the other three you mention.
> ...


Lol. Ok.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

Look we are talking about the art of Watch making. Not overpriced watches that suckers buy because the watch has rolex on the dial. Where is the rolex torbillion? Where isthe rolex minute repeater? Seiko have produced both in house.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

sonyman99 said:


> Lol. Ok.


ROFLMAO


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## sonyman99 (Sep 21, 2015)

eblackmo said:


> Look we are talking about the art of Watch making. Not overpriced watches that suckers buy because the watch has rolex on the dial. Where is the rolex torbillion? Where isthe rolex minute repeater? Seiko have produced both in house.


All high end watches are overpriced that suckers buy. The only differentiation is personal preference.


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## ljb187 (Nov 6, 2009)

eblackmo said:


> Only if Rolex owners stop stressing out about their more expensive watches not being as well finished as a GS. Which I can tell you first hand is the case. Because that screams "insecure".
> 
> Although aggregate is a big word. I prefer composition over aggregate or even inheritance in a professional context.
> 
> ...


Although "suckers" is a small word, looking over your series of recent posts I can see why you would use it. All kidding aside you're an exemplary spokesperson for the brand...in an aggregate sorta way.


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## TellingTime (Aug 22, 2014)

What I really like about GS compared to the competition is the hand finishing and Spring drive. The only knock I really have is the disaster of a clasp.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

eblackmo said:


> I am honestly not sure why there is all this hate over a brand that produces haute horology pieces. What has rolex produced? SS models that any watch company like steinhart can do? With off the shelf movements and cases machined in china. Why would anyone pay 10k plus for a watch they could buy from steinhart for under a thousand bucks? I don't get it. When I buy GS I know I am getting a hand finished watch. That a lot of thought has gone into in terms of design. With rolex. Not so much. IT's just another sub.


You're paying for the cost of the machines that put together one of the most well fitted cases and bracelets on the planet. Rolex is the toyota of watches.


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## yngrshr (Dec 6, 2014)

jmanlay said:


> Don't know about devalued but I love this one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love my 201. It gets wrist time normally 3-4 days of the week with the 311 and Ahoi getting the rest.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

yngrshr said:


> I love my 201. It gets wrist time normally 3-4 days of the week with the 311 and Ahoi getting the rest.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same here I have a bunch of watches but the 201 is it for me . Love it on the canvas strap just super comfortable .


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## yngrshr (Dec 6, 2014)

What strap is that? Is that a Barton?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

yngrshr said:


> What strap is that? Is that a Barton?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope from a German company very supple nicely made actually and cheap.

https://www.miros-time.de/zweiteiler/canvas-split-bänder/


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## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

Well, it looks legit like a lower end grand Seiko. Complete with rice paper, fancy box, and it Just looks sick.

So basically just minus the Grand in the name. Like I said before, I don't see the issue here. Nothing like a 60k Canadian aqua terra type situation at all.


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## Randy63 (May 28, 2008)

Tomatoes11 said:


> Well, it looks legit like a lower end grand Seiko. Complete with rice paper, fancy box, and it Just looks sick.
> 
> So basically just minus the Grand in the name.


I had a chance to try that one on. It's my favorite of the LX series and I could see myself owning one. Having said that, $5K is too much in my opinion. Now if it were $3200 or so I'd be really tempted.

Mr. Blue


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## Randy63 (May 28, 2008)

Sorry, double post.


Mr. Blue


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

LX to me is "rip off" Seiko line for raising price......
Price is closed or higher to GS line

I rather go for SBDB015/017 to save my money otherwise I just go for GS a totally upgrade
from price view

Seiko < Seiko LX <= Grand Seiko

this is the LX special link from Taiwan Seiko
SEIKO PROSPEX LX Line Limited Edition | SEIKO WATCH
it's well made for sure but it's not GS quality
no fine polish on movement


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## Sparrowhawk (May 22, 2006)

I agree with you that the Prospex SD models offer more value than the newer LX SD models.

I referenced the same Prospex SD models in another similar thread that asked whether Seiko is devaluing GS.

I have an Ananta GMT SD with the 5R66A movement and it has more and better finishing than the 5R65 in your picture.


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## pkk9318 (Mar 27, 2017)

I feel Seiko must have a clear line in the sand distinguishing these brands at least for the western market. 

Seiko Sport 5 ($500 or less)	
------------------------------------------------------	
Seiko Prospex (1000 to max 2500)	
Case designs	(Different from those of Grand Seiko, like turtle, sumo, samurai and skx)
Dials More variations 
Movements	(older gen mechanical/quartz/keep spring drive for most expensive pieces)
Complications	Experiment with ideas and complications
Warranty	(3 years)
------------------------------------------------------ 
Grand Seiko (5000+)	
Case designs (distinct case designs from that of seiko)
Dials (Offer standard but breathtaking dials, snowflake, gorgeous blue, white and black) (do limited editions of dials/cases))
Movements	(top tier mechanical quartz and spring drive)
Finish (Zaratsu)
Warranty	(5+ years)


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## wow445 (Feb 8, 2019)

jmanlay said:


> Nope from a German company very supple nicely made actually and cheap.
> 
> https://www.miros-time.de/zweiteiler/canvas-split-bänder/


Just stumbled on this and wanna say thanks. Been looking for a decent canvas strap.


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## Tzolkin (Nov 13, 2019)

Hello All, new member to the forum here but long time GS collector. Been following this thread and thought it was worth mentioning that the Seiko LX Spring Drive SNR029 won the Diver Watch prize of the GPHG (GRAND PRIX D'HORLOGERIE DE GENÈVE), which several podcasts have called the Oscars of the watch world.

https://www.gphg.org/horlogerie/en/watches/prospex-lx-line-divers

It was up against a few intersting watches: https://www.gphg.org/horlogerie/en/gphg-2019/pre-selected-watches#2019_PLONGEE


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