# Cheap chinese Automatics and the truth about them



## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

Please tell me any stories you have or any good or bad luck history about chinese cheap automtaic watches by the brands of Schaffer - Sheffler & sohne AK homme, etc etc

I have been keeping an eye out on the watch sellers of ebay - and how they have managed to stay under the radar from ebays trust and safety team (not hard as it seems) by selling the same type of watch - with different label on them

since 2008 i have purchased around 40 of the various types and some have a power reserve of 8-12 hours and some only 35 seconds!!
i have a report in which im going to submit or better yet let all you know out there - of the absolute DONTS before buying one of these. Dont get me wrong, go ahead buy them if you really really want them. Just do not be shocked or disapppointed it it doesnt work as a proper watch. 

My experiences with watch sellers on ebay is my main issue here as i have bought most through this area.

I have had friends in hong kong who have visited these SO called factories i have asked them to - (for refunds returns etc) only to find theyre residential apartments - run as small offices by those who buy them cheap form the mainland and get different brandings on them. Their commission structure is based on volume and not on after sales service. There is no factory in many cases. There is no warranty regardless of any being offered - their aim is to sell it get paid and thats it. 

there is so much more than meets the eye...

if you have a story to add, or maybe you know of someone who wants to know more... 
please feel free to add, reply or question.

I know many of the ebay sellers for chinese automatic watches and some of them are operating as different sellers yet are the same person.


No one deserves to be ripped off, for any dollar...because of something that clearly isnt what it is!


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Unfortunately your post paints all Chinese automatics with the same brush.
You would do better do this about the 'mushroom' brands that pop up and disappear as soon as the authorities make it too hot for the sellers.

There are lots of good quality 'cheap'(inexpensive) Chinese automatic watches that are sold on ePrey and covered by real warranties.

It wouldn't take 40 watch purchases for me to stop buying from these 'marginal' sellers ;-)


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## mkingrei (Aug 21, 2010)

there is so much more than meets the eye.....

Yeah, like why someone would buy an inexpensive chinese watch from HK for a low purchase price with most of the cost being shipping, be UNHAPPY with it, and then buy 39 more???

if your looking to stop sellers from selling fakes actually labeled Rolex or Omega, fine. i dont quite understand the point of attacking made up or mushroom brands like Schaffer, AK, Goer, etc. As far as I know, they are not pretending to be anything but a really inexpensive mechanical watch. I have bought a fair number of Schaffers and Goers, not b/c I thought they were fakes of famous brands, but b/c I liked their styles (and as far as I know I never bought a copy of a "famous" watch, I just bought styles I found interesting), and was excited to buy a cool watch for $15 with shipping. I got a few duds, and for the most part, sellers were pretty fair about making it right. a few sellers i wont deal with again, but most i would.


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## balla (Jun 6, 2008)

I have had a lot of cheap chinese watches like goer and jaragar orkina etc and some have been duds but the sellers on e bay have always in my experience been excellent ether sending a new watch no questions asked and with no need for me to send back the original or they are very apologetic and have immediately refunded my money. So I have to disagree with your theories of no warranties and to sell and get paid and that's it . Not in my experience.


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## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

DazMiguel,

Please read this concerning the different levels of Chinese watches.

Grades of Chinese watches - Chinese Watch Industry Wiki

cheers,
gigfy


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## Stone Hill (Nov 28, 2009)

If there is money to be made someone will be there to make it. I do not know anyone who bought any of the brands you talked about who honestly expected much from them. Even if the sellers were trying to sell these off as big name watches, most buyers BS alarm would go off. The other fact is you can not stop these things from popping up. They will always be there. 

I do have to ask, why would you buy 40 of them?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

DazMiguel, I think you've covered this subject well enough in your other posts on this forum, and it is clear from the responses that few people are as surprised as you regarding the origins and quality of your purchases. Gigfy's grading of Chinese watches explains it well enough. You've been swimming with the bottom-feeders and what you have collected from the abyssal ooze is pretty much what you should expect at that level.


Specific issues that you have raised have been covered in other threads e.g. 

-Big Date mechanisms that run all the way up to 39 are to be found in various quartz and mechanical watches including Swiss and Japanese examples. 

-Power-reserve has found to be inconsistent and generally poor on the majority of recent lowest-grade watches using the Standard movement. 

-To buy mechanical movements cheap enough to assemble into watches to be sold at such a low price pretty much requires the assembler to buy reject stock.

-Many brands may carry identical watches because they've all ordered off the same OEM catalogue from an assembler in Shenzhen. If they were actually commissioning original design work, then obviously the watch would not be so cheap.

-A Hong Kong address is never the location of manufacture, not since the mid 1990s. Swissebauches Ltd, the world's 5th largest manufacturer of quartz movements has only a handful of staff at their Hong Kong address. The actual making of their product is done by subcontractors on the mainland.

-Offering an item at a fraction of wholesale and then padding the postage is common practice for thousands of ebay sallers of all nationalities. If you've bought 30 watches from ebay, surely you've noticed the fact.


Check out the article that gigfy linked to, and while you're there take a look around the Chinese watch industry wiki. You may develop a better idea of what to look for in a quality Chinese watch, if that is what you're after.


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

Well said everyone,

As for why i had purchased so many? Since 2008 i had bought 2 from many different sellers over the years my own research and findings for circles in fraud etc. Some are still working. Some are cactus! I dont think i was complaining at how many i bought, but moreso so the percentage of legitamite business is less through 'loopholes' in e-commerce laws which makes it therefore easy to do the same with anything else apart from timepieces.

I along with a few others only welcome these responses as it helps for cases on ebay which are underway - and since i have compiled my experiences and documentation.( Yes there are obviously honorable watch sellers on ebay). I am speaking of the ones i have caught out - the ones i know of. Apart from terminating one members account from ripping many customers off. The many many out there whose voices arent on these forums yet have the same problems. Their support makes wheels of progress turn and whilst others out there have knowledge of what really "goes on", this mushroom system may well never stop! The ethics spoil the transaction. For eg - someone may buy a few watches from seller and then they may get offered other deals on the side - knock offs, the fakes. Its out there. 

"It's not what you do it is how you do it" - and then there's if you end up doing anything about it!

As i said in my closing line of the initial post - No one deserves to be ripped off, for anything...because of something that clearly isnt what it is! 

Thanks for the posts - and replies. They will absolutely come handy in the not too distant future.


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

Cheers!


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

"if your looking to stop sellers from selling fakes actually labeled Rolex or Omega, fine. i dont quite understand the point of attacking made up or mushroom brands like Schaffer, AK, Goer, etc. As far as I know, they are not pretending to be anything but a really inexpensive mechanical watch"...

Are you sure about this statement? - ( the Scheffler and Söhne that i have) - is actually made in china. Yet it says ''germany'' on it to make you believe its regal european standard of great value and quality.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Model-Paragon-Scheffler-S-hne-Germany-Automatic-/360315790686 look at the pictures on the back of this watch. Especially where it says germany..

Quoted from the Chinese Watch industry Wiki - *Note:* Do not believe any markings you see on the rotor, case, or dial. Examples have been found to have the words "Swiss", "Japan", "France", and other markings that may lead the buyer into thinking the watch and/or movement is anything but Chinese. Examples of *Chinese* movements legally labeled as Swiss Made calibers are the Claro-Semag CL888 and the Edouard Lauzieres EL-18. 

These may not be a Rolex or Omega we're talking about however isnt it - illegal to use words that mislead falsify or incorrectly describe an item? That would be using the 'reputation' of the German manufacturers to make it more valuable than it really is. Are Scheffler & Söhne pretending to be an inexpensive watch? 

This one in particular,http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Model-Aeros...308999198?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item53e417041e

I won for 40aus..in 2008 - I also have another i bought at the same time which is still selling on ebay now at 141USD. When i bought it for 40aus. They now claim their watches are worth in the range of the 300-500euro, but there is no evidence or support of any reputable watch dealer that will stand by this!

Where on any of these links do their descriptions say the watches are made in china? Now, do they actually say where theyre made at all? 139usd. is that cheap for a mushroom brand when you can really get it for 10-20dollars?

Cleverly, some companies operate differently to where they claim to be established. The issue is its a chinese watch- but they dont seem to disclose this anywhere??

Trying to sell Brass as Gold is misleading, false and illegal in the laws of any business. Selling brass as brass isn't.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

DazMiguel said:


> "if your looking to stop sellers from selling fakes actually labeled Rolex or Omega, fine. i dont quite understand the point of attacking made up or mushroom brands like Schaffer, AK, Goer, etc. As far as I know, they are not pretending to be anything but a really inexpensive mechanical watch"...
> 
> Are you sure about this statement? - (l the Scheffler and söhne that i have) - this is actually made in china. Yet it says ''germany'' on it to make you believe its regal european standard of great value..
> New Model Paragon. Scheffler & Söhne Germany Automatic - eBay (item 360315790686 end time Nov-11-10 14:56:33 PST) look at the pictures on the back of this watch. Especially where it says germany..
> ...


I fear your fight will be for nothing. As you point out; as soon as any heat is generated, these sellers disappear then show up again in a new guise. They are a constantly moving target and finding the source of their creations is nigh on impossible.

You simply won't get anywhere with ePrey unless you are big and have many high powered lawyers to harass them...as Panerai did.
eBay makes it's money by charging fees and if they eliminate sellers, they eliminate fees. They won't do anything about these sellers unless it will actually cost them more than it's worth.

The only way to stop these sellers is to educate their buyers...but using yourself as an example, there is and will be no shortage of customers


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

I hear ya.
education.....not villification.

some big names have been caught.. as for customers, i dont really care about my personal misfortunes - they ended up as the beginning of case studies for investigations after i noticed the disappearance of scheffler and sohne...and sudden emergences of other labels - do you know why they were booted??? who booted them?? 


"its the hinge that squeaks that gets the grease", Malcom X.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

DazMiguel said:


> I hear ya.
> education.....not villification.
> 
> some big names have been caught.. as for customers, i dont really care about my personal misfortunes - they ended up as the beginning of case studies for investigations after i noticed the disappearance of scheffler and sohne...and sudden emergences of other labels - do you know why they were booted??? who booted them??
> ...


Often, sellers get the boot when they have run afoul of eBay itself; ie outlandish shipping charges with no real selling prices...item sells for $0.99 with $25 shipping.
On occasion, we have seen sellers disappear because they got behind in their payments to eBay.

I suspect some of it is the 'hit and run' technique that comes into play. By that, I mean a seller buys a minimum lot of watches with some made up brand and when they are all gone, they disappear before anyone can catch them. Then they reinvent themselves with new seller names and another batch of watches with a new brand name. It's just how the 'mushroom' industry runs.


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## phillyj (Oct 10, 2007)

I don't know about you but to me, buying some of those watches on ebay is like buying from the sidewalk seller with "Bolex". I doubt even those guys sell fakes for 99 cents. Isn't that a warning flag? Not doing enough research is your fault. You can't get rid of those chinese ebay sellers. At least, you made it to watchuseek so thats a step forward. Once you do your research, you'll understand what everyone else knows. You get what you pay for. 

Sometimes you just have to think if it is even possible to get a real swiss or german watch for $1. In general, because everyone has a credit card, they just throw away their money carelessly. You said you bought 40 such watches and at a shipping price around $15 to $25, you probably spent somewhere near $500. For that money, you could have bought a nice German, Swiss, Japanese, or even a Chinese Seagull. 

I hope you learn as much as I have from watchuseek.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Something that is worth remembering about 'Germasian' watches is that very often the brands are actually owned by Germans. For example 'Aeromatic 1912' and 'Tauchmeister 1923' are owned by Rainer Bettner who lives in Frankfurt. I think the group that sell 'Trias' and 'Elysee' are based in Dusseldorf. Such watches are never actually labelled 'Made in Germany', however they often mention 'Germany' or 'Dusseldorf' or something on the dial. What they are identifying is the origin of the brand, not the place of manufacture.










What we need to be careful of is to not apply wishful expectations to watches that we would not apply to other products. For example, if I see a T-shirt bearing the inscription 'Calvin Klein, New York', I don't expect that the shirt was actually made in the Big Apple. Likewise, the furniture shop Freedom used to trade as Freedom Australia, but that did not lead me to any expectation regarding the country of origin of their products. If you showed me a watch signed 'Emporio Armani, Italy' I would still expect it to be made in China.

Other weasel words to look out for:

A brand name containing a reference to a country e.g. Swiss Star, Swiss Legend, Swiss Watch International, Sheffler & Sohne Germany. If you challenged Sheffler & Sohne over the use of the word Germany on the watch, they might point out that it is merely part of the name. Be warned that some retailers of such watches may genuinely believe these watches are from Germany or Switzerland and sell them as such in good faith. Those mushroom brands that sell direct are usually very careful to avoid explicit "Made in Germany" claims.

A date incorporated into a brand name e.g. Aeromatic 1912, Tauchmeister 1923. Those numbers have been picked at random by modern companies with no heritage. Once again, retaillers may be fooled by these dates and sell them as "Tauchmeister, since 1923" etc. The brand owners selling direct are more careful.

A dead brand resurrected by a modern company e.g. Nicolet 1886 (resurrecting Marc Nicolet's name, but trading on the similarity with Armand Nicolet), Leon Hatot (somehow Swatch Group got hold of the great man's name and use it to peddle some extremely expensive yet generic women's watches) and Graham ("quintessentially English watches made in Switzerland" don't make me laugh). At least Alpha has the good grace to say "since 1993" and cut all percieved ties with the original Swiss brand.

Watches 'inspired' by some long-forgotten masterpiece (of which no evidence remains) built from generic Chinese parts e.g. Steinhausen and Stauer.

Bogus brands that feed off the name recognition of more famous watches e.g. Nicolet (again) and Slava Sozvezdie.

It's dangerous waters we're swimming in. Watch out for the fins.


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## Seele (Jan 9, 2010)

Chascomm,

I entirely agree. At the end of the day, it is up to the individual to choose which pool to swim in, it's just that some pools have more sharks than others.


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## Reno (Sep 23, 2008)

Chascomm said:


> Those mushroom brands that sell direct are usually very careful to avoid explicit "Made in Germany" claims.


I was thinking about the whole concept of "mushroom brands"&#8230; I personally own three Germasian watches that I bought 3 years ago. Aeromatic, Tauchmeister & Wagner, that is.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f78/mush...-calendar-243779-post2508850.html#post2508850

https://www.watchuseek.com/f78/mush...re-u-boot-243777-post1759175.html#post1759175

https://www.watchuseek.com/f78/mush...-skeleton-333103-post3442836.html#post3442836

*From when a brand stops being labelled as "mushroom" ?*

I mean, in the beginning, those brands where supposed to appear one day, then disappear overnight after their first batch was sold, right ? :think:

While Wagner watches seems to be less active than in the past, Aeromatic @ Tauchmeister (same company) are stil in the game, with new products&#8230;

*So in my opinion, these brands shouldn't be labelled as "mushroom brands" anymore* :-/

What do you think ?


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## Martin_B (Apr 11, 2008)

I agree with Reno,

Some brands, I would include Trias and Ingersoll, in my opinion have become real brands, and not just slap-on labels. Just because they use Chinese movements doesn't necessary make them mushrooms. 

Regards,

Martin


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Martin_B said:


> I agree with Reno,
> 
> Some brands, I would include Trias and Ingersoll, in my opinion have become real brands, and not just slap-on labels. Just because they use Chinese movements doesn't necessary make them mushrooms.


I agree. The European-owned brands seem to be fairly stable. Even their model ranges change less often than those of the US-based brands like Stuhrling and Invicta. Likewise brands like IK Colouring, which are owned by a company with their own design studios aren't 'mushroom' no matter how cheap they are.

I would reserve the term 'mushroom' for those brands being sold out of Hong Kong apartments and maybe some of the more transient direct-from-Shenzhen brands. And even the latter may prove us wrong in time.


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

Yes it has to be one hell of a mushroom brand to be still selling the same watches after 2 years.. Scheffler and söhne still sell their watches - under scheffler ans söehne - notice the difference...
Trias sold many but under the post - "made in germany and made in gemrany a RE post) - it soon comes down to the fact that a watch that has germany written on it - is NOT made in germany. 
With a few spelling mistakes and so fourth these watches still sell... but the funny bit is really this - I bought mine for 40aus...the same ones are listed as NEW models and are currently selling for 140usd? only 2 years later..since when do these brands increase their value 3 times for a cheap watch?


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

I read a post '''made in germany'' - Interesting.. It says that a watch that has GERMANY written on the back isnt made in germany! 
It may not be illegal to write germany on the back of a watch but technically, but not stating where it IS actually made at all? its "obtaining a financial advantage by deception" - Australian law finds these acts unlawful.

The technicality here is using a name of good repute without stating its actual origin of where the item is made and without disclosing this to the customer. Misleads a customer. Such a price would be considerably different had they have been made aware of its real manufacture. 

Your opening paragraph states this well as a grey area - t shirts and the likes may say or market themselves as they do - BUT the difference is "had the customer bought the Calvin Klein New York shirt from the SELLER who has told them it is made in New York when it is not.. that is Gaining a finacial advanyage by deception. 

An Emporio watch italy - maybe made in china or anywhere else However if IT was SOLD to you as an item that was MADE in Italy, only to find it wasn't. Theres the problem.
You may expect it to be made in china and thats fine.. Its how it is SOLD and under its Pretences. If you as a seller do not disclose or advertise important details of an item - it can be called misleading. Deception, Miselading are the forms of how these items are being sold. If i bought an afforadable watch and i was given an honest answer as to where it was made, when asked, i can make up my mind on the sale based on that knowledge.

I have bought a fake branded singlet on a roadside market because i needed a singlet - and knew quite well it wasnt what it said on the singlet - despite the seller actually telling me it was real. I knew and i was fully aware of that purchase and i was not deceived in the transaction. The price alas was a mere dollar. 

I had bought watches from sellers aware that they may be not what the say - it is here then my job to report and notify my associates whether unlawful practises were used in the sale. 
This first came to light when i bought a scheffler and sohne (years ago) - It wasnt until i received the item - and how it was all prestented. That got me thinking. 
Its taken some time, years, but with some small successes and catching a few sellers out and assisting the chinese police. Its a start.


great insight from these posts, it shows that this isnt a secret - its common knowledge to those in such circles. 
Cheers


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

the first 100 dollars i had spent on two watches years ago was for the sake of buying a basic watch automatic and learning a bit on them. I didnt really take notice of their origins until i had problems witht he seller who wouldnt give me straight answers.
I have some associates in china that told me t buy a few more watches and i set up a small operation where i had bought some watches from areas where my associates could follow up.
I spent the rest as part of a project. 

Almost all of my small collection was given to me or handed down. SO i became an accidental collector. 
I have learnt other things form watchuseek and this is a great forum for references. 

The one time i knew got a great deal was around ten years ago when the Australian Gov still had the 22% sales tax in effect - Duty free shops were the way to go. On my way overseas i visited one to buy the usual stuff and knew of the guy at the counter (a friend of a freind).

I never thought of a watch to buy and he showed me some watch catalogues to which a Tag caught my eye. (kirium series) It was retailing at the time for around the 3000 mark, yet i got it for just under a 1000. I know retail values can be ridiculous but i was quite happy to pay the discounted price for a watch that everywhere for some time i saw in official stores were much more than what i paid!


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

What do you think of this?

Here we have 2 Scheffler and Sohne watches... different models different price - but really theyre the same watch - not only that take a look at how the items are listed... calling them Scheffler+soehne? with the trade mark TM next to it.. when the actual watches have the scheffler and sohne engraving on them?

does this seem perculiar or suspect or misleading about this brand?

watch A
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150515496041&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

watch B
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Scheffler-Soehne-Germany-automatic-mens-watch-PARAGON-/150515602089?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item230b6dd2a9

the fact that the spelling "Scheffler+Soehne" is different on the listing to the actual brand is a red flag - the the listing "new without tags" is another..also the recommended retail price is over 500euro? according to whom? and what?

Doesnt that sound misleading? Suspicious? Deceptive?

Why would a professional watch company sell this watch under a different name??? Remember ebays laws are - "seller assumes all responsibility for this listing"!
The watches are almost the same except for colour and band.. yet the prices are noticably different too. (mine which is identical in the 18k plate was purchased for 40aus)
Why does the listing go one about buying Trias watches are the best guarantee? What does that have to do the listing? - Shouldnt there be more details like where it is made? Its movement? Were talking about a watch with an asking price of almost 200usd?

Does it also seem odd how this item is in Germany yet the price is in USD? Also its not available to EU residents??

Isnt the way this seller is trying to sell these watches - misleading in their demeanor? 
By not telling you enough - or the simple truth instead of its rah rah rah ... its masking the important details.

This maybe is a stable brand now only because its listing keeps changing names... if it was disclosed that this was made in china would the price be not so high?? It is how theyre shadily conducting their sales under different names and so fourth that make this - stable. (well perhaps in this case)

What about them is German other than they are sold from germany..? As a German resident you cant even go and buy one? 
Finally look at this listing for a TRIAS.. again read the add and see what you think... the price is only 88 dollars for the same watch again?

read the part where it says that trias and scheffler are made by the same manufacturer. (in red under its description)

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/TRIAS-German...517085774?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item230b84764e

Tell me your thoughts on that!


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

DazMiguel said:


> What do you think of this?
> 
> Here we have 2 Scheffler and Sohne watches... different models different price - but really theyre the same watch - not only that take a look at how the items are listed... calling them Scheffler+soehne? with the trade mark TM next to it.. when the actual watches have the scheffler and sohne engraving on them?
> 
> ...


I see nothing that excludes anyone from buying these watches. There is only a note about the additional item shipping rate not being available to Euro customers; they can still buy the watches.

As for the changing names...who cares? Did anyone complain when Seikosha changed to Seiko or Eterna to ETA? How about when Bulova continued to brand some of it's watches with Accutron when they are clearly not?

If you don't like deceitful labelling...check out what the Swiss laws say about what can go on it's watches; think Claro Semag, Cecil Pernell.

You keep harping on an issue that just doesn't matter; this will always be the way of Internet watches.
If you don't like the sellers; don't buy from them.
If you don't like watches with Chinese provenance; don't buy them.


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## DazMiguel (Oct 3, 2008)

and your mushroom interpretation of an overnight brand? 
that still sells years later?
Is not considered a mushroom brand.
Its not the harping is it. Its the educating right?!


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

DazMiguel said:


> and your mushroom interpretation of an overnight brand?
> that still sells years later?
> Is not considered a mushroom brand.
> Its not the harping is it. Its the educating right?!


Your own references show the name changes...that's mushroom. Changing the brand from 'S and S' to 'S+S TM' is no different than changing from Olipai to Herc.
It just isn't important enough to devote so much time on since the practices will continue as long as people buy these things.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

The currency in which an item is listed signifies nothing. For example, watches sold from the Ukraine always used to be in USD, then the branched out into EUR (in response to changing exchange rates), then a lot of them switched to GBP (to help mask a long overdue shipping increase). After that there was a tendency for some Ukranian sellers to spread their listings across all of those currencies as well as AUD.

As regards changes to brand names, there was the incident of a handful of fake Alphas on ebay. When a seller is offering an obviously cheap watch, he may decide to 'borrow' the name of another cheap watch but with a good reputation. And then if those fakes are purchased from the same suppliers as the original, then how are you to know the difference? Years ago in Hong Kong there was a brand called 'Oreintex' obviously picking up on the name recognition of Orient. Oreintex must have done well because it was then imitated in the form of 'Orientex', 'Orintex' and 'Oryntex'. A fake Alpha is an example of counterfeiting, but an Oyntex is simply a bogus brand of a bogus brand. And the way a brand name is spelt in an ebay listing may signal nothing more than the limited literacy of the seller.



> Finally look at this listing for a TRIAS.. again read the add and see what you think... the price is only 88 dollars for the same watch again?
> 
> read the part where it says that trias and scheffler are made by the same manufacturer. (in red under its description)
> 
> ...


So 'Gandalf's World of Watches' (Lothar Luebbe in Gladbeck, Germany) says Trias and Scheffler&Sohne are the same. This is the first time that I have seen any suggestion of a connection between Trias and Scheffler & Sohne, but following it up I have located a 'Paragon' model branded Trias, with the same Shanghai movement. And it seems that all of these German brands get sold through the same networks and many share common designs across several brands. Are they all under one owner, or are they simply buying from the same Chinese catalogue? How will we ever know?

One thing that is sure is that not all the German sellers are directly associated with each other and they may be sourcing their stock in different ways and offer different warranty conditions. What? You thought the warrranties were all coming directly from the manufacturer via authorised distributors? Like Rolex? Think again.

Let me spell it out:

-These watches were not manufactured by the brand owner.

-These watches were probably not assembled by the manufacturer of the parts that make up the watch e.g. the movement.

-These watches are not all sold by the brand owner or by a subsidiary of the owner.

-These particular models my not remain in production for more than a single batch. Replacement watches or parts may be difficult to obtain, so a long warranty from the seller (if offered) is largely meaningless.


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## baronrojo (Jul 14, 2010)

Hey...why don't you go after the real scam artists...the people who make franken-watches? I think most of us grown ups know what we're getting into when we buy watches from China. Moreso, a lot of us have been around watches enough to know what brands are truly Swiss/European and which brands are fake mushroom brands. However...there are those of us who willingly chose to buy some of these watches...I doubt most of us are being fooled into believing that our $100 purchase is worth the $2000 MSRP. Heck...I've seen a bunch of watches that I wouldn't mind owning that come from these mushroom brands...in fact some of the watches in the links you provided actually look nice. 

You seem so intent on nailing these guys...so why don't you go after the people who recase movements and redial watches and truly want us to believe that their one-of-a-kind Omega is the real deal? If it's your "job" to report these sellers...add the fake Eastern European/Ukrainian/South American sellers to your list. I'm sure you would be doing the watch collecting community more of a favor.

I would much rather buy a mushroom brand Chinese automatic than a complete rip-off, franken-watch.


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## domi (Jan 21, 2008)

About the above...
If you're looking for franken-watches, just try a quick eBay search for "USSR" in the jewelery and Watches section.


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## Renko (Sep 23, 2013)

The way these Chinese companies try to scam folks is pretty interesting. Every day, they seem to find new ways to convince people that they are legitimate German companies that have have a long history of making watches. If people do not know to go to forums such as this, they can be tricked very easily. Just check out the websites this supposed Elysee company has created. And oddly, their websites are not within any German domains which should be a dead giveaway.

https://www.elysee-watches.com/index_en.html

Elysee Watches USA

They have even created a supposed history of their company in the about section. And they have a FAQ page on each of their websites in which they boldly to the question about where their watches are made that "ELYSEE timepieces continue to be manufactured in Germany, in keeping with a rich tradition and company history". On a Russian watch site, they have even posted a bogus interview with the "owner of ELYSEE brand" Interview with the owner of ELYSEE brand. In addition, they have websites that pretend to be European yet are in US domains which display their watches as luxury timepieces such as www.brydlon.com and Prices for ELYSEE watches | buy a ELYSEE watch at a bargain price at Chrono24. And I have seen where people have written that their watches do not spell "Germany" correctly and other such things because the watches are not actually made in Germany. If you check out the photos on Ebay and other sites, you will see that they are not spelling anything incorrectly now. Each of those items have the words "made in Germany" written upon the face of the watches, and the sellers note in the headings of Ebay that the watches are made in Germany. Out of curiosity, I called a couple of the phone numbers listed on their Elyseeusa.com website. The recording referenced several brands of watches and instructed me to press a particular number to reach Elysse Watches. The recording then asked me to leave my number so that they could return my call. These guys even have a freaking Facebook and Linkedin pages that look legitimate.

The basic point is that to the uninitiated, these guys selling this crap on Ebay and via other US watch dealers look completely legitimate. They even have a page on their main website which tells retailers that "SPECIALIST WATCH DEALERS PLAY A CENTRAL ROLE IN THE ELYSEE PHILOSOPHY" and ask them to sign on to sell their watches. If any individuals who do not know much about watches start googling and reviewing Ebay to buy their next watch, they are going to find websites that indicate every about companies such as Elysee are legitimate. And the Ebay dealers which I found peddling these watches had 100% approval ratings. Something should be done about this. No company should be allowed to misrepresent themselves like this and make a profit at doing it. Is the German government concerned about this? Why aren't their any international laws which can stop junk like this from deceiving consumers?


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## Louis888 (Jun 3, 2012)

Maybe I'm missing something...but you have not provided any proof that a chinese company is behind this operation.



Renko said:


> The way these Chinese companies try to scam folks is pretty interesting. Every day, they seem to find new ways to convince people that they are legitimate German companies that have have a long history of making watches. If people do not know to go to forums such as this, they can be tricked very easily. Just check out the websites this supposed Elysee company has created. And oddly, their websites are not within any German domains which should be a dead giveaway.
> 
> https://www.elysee-watches.com/index_en.html
> 
> ...


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## 13143268 (Jun 8, 2012)

Louis888 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something...but you have not provided any proof that a chinese company is behind this operation.


Louis888, I think you are wasting your time looking for proof. As we often see on these forums, they are always people criticizing Chinese watch manufacturers/sellers without any concrete evidence or proof of bad practices. For some reason, Chinese watch manufacturers/sellers seem to attract hatred from some groups. I am not defending or saying that all Chinese watch manufacturers/sellers are good but I am sure that they are also bad or unethical practices from manufacturers/sellers in other countries as well. But for some strange reason, these guys never get targeted.

This is a Chinese watch forum for people who love Chinese watches. I, for one, am offended to see constant disparaging remarks/postings about Chinese watch manufacturers/sellers. If any individual does not appreciate Chinese watches, my sincere suggestion is not to come to this forum.


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## wessa (Feb 10, 2012)

Oh dear.

This is so simple that even my ten year old daughter can understand it.
There are Chinese watches with quite a bit of history and heritage and there are some, well, other Chinese watches.
This forum tends to or tries to concentrate (to a large extend) on the former.
Despite what it says on some dodgy web sites that are outside the jurisdiction of any countries legal requirements, ultimately it is up to the buyer to figure out what they are buying unless they are like a flock of sheep where one says mheee, so the rest go mheee.
Very simple, don't believe everything you see, read or hear regardless of where you have seen/read/heard it, Australia, UK, Canada, US or China. The world is full of cheats and liars trying their best to get the hard earned $$$ out of you, in any country, anywhere in the world.
Ultimately it is what is BETWEEN YOUR EARS that matters and if there is not much there, well, believe what you read and Paypal your hard earned money ;-)

Good luck!


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Renko said:


> The way these Chinese companies try to scam folks is pretty interesting. Every day, they seem to find new ways to convince people that they are legitimate German companies that have have a long history of making watches. If people do not know to go to forums such as this, they can be tricked very easily. Just check out the websites this supposed Elysee company has created. And oddly, their websites are not within any German domains which should be a dead giveaway.
> 
> https://www.elysee-watches.com/index_en.html
> 
> ...


The rainy season comes and the moldy ones creep out from under their bridges :-(

A little research would have shown that most of these companies are owned and registered i the countries where they claim to be from. I seriously doubt that any of them are owned or operated by Chinese nationals.
Buying and selling of Chinese watches; eubaches or just parts does not make a company Chinese.

Your post appears to be a little xenophobic.


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## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

Guys, this is a three year old thread that Renko replied to. 'DazMiguel', the OP, disappeared after the last post here.
Welcome to WUS, Renko!


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

LCheapo said:


> Guys, this is a three year old thread that Renko replied to. 'DazMiguel', the OP, disappeared after the last post here.
> Welcome to WUS, Renko!


Still not a very good introduction :-(


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Renko said:


> The way these Chinese companies try to scam folks is pretty interesting. Every day, they seem to find new ways to convince people that they are legitimate German companies that have have a long history of making watches.


Actually Renko, if you look more closely at various the 'Germasian' brands you will generally find that they are German-owned. You might as well call Apple a Chinese company just because the iPad is made by Foxcon.

There is no grand Chinese conspiracy to masquerade as Germans in order to trick you into buying their watches. Rather it is a handful of European and American brand owners who are sometimes less than honest regarding the manufacturing origins of their products. Another thing to consider is that sellers of certain products sometimes make exaggerated claims that go beyond what the brand owner claims.

To be fair, I do recall once seeing where a Chinese investment company appeared to have bought a defunct Swiss brand in order to sell Chinese-made watches in China with the appearance of Swiss content, however the fact that they were selling direct from Hong Kong rather gave the game away.

If you have looked so thoroughly at Elysee and have not actually turned up any evidence to indicate Chinese ownership apart from the origin of the product then I see no reason to assume a conspiracy. But I would be curious to know how Elysee's German owners can claim to 'manufacture' their watches in Germany.



> If people do not know to go to forums such as this, they can be tricked very easily.


It's an easy mistake to make. If you're accustomed to only associating a particular country with bad new stories regarding consumer products then to see a forum dedicated to products from that country, one might assume that the prime purpose of such a forum is to 'out' misdeeds and conspiracies originating from that country. From time to time we get visitors here who make that mistake.



> Something should be done about this. No company should be allowed to misrepresent themselves like this and make a profit at doing it. Is the German government concerned about this? Why aren't their any international laws which can stop junk like this from deceiving consumers?


This is indeed a widespread problem with the false representation of products, and we see it very often in the watch forums. However the deceivers are far more often located in North America and Europe, only the products themselves are made in Asia according to the specifications requested by the brands themselves.

And by the way; welcome to the Chinese Mechanical Watches forum.


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## tplummer (Feb 8, 2014)

Hi,

Fifteen years ago I bought a few very low cost Chinese windups to measure the quality and general usefulness. I found that these stopped working within a day or two of wearing. Usually loose parts or a hair inside the works (these were skeleton watches). So my question is , has the quality improved in the passing fifteen years?
I set out to answer this question by examining four new Chinese made watches.

1) SHENHUA, auto, $20
2) SHENHUA, auto, $20, ( different movement)
3) ORKINA, manual, $15
4) CURREN, quartz, $15


The plan is to wear each for 1 week and report my results here. The autos are wound fully by hand at the start only.

Data 
----------
1) SHENHUA, auto, $20

Stopped after 2 days, autowinding seems ok but unable to keep the watch running. Main spring exhausted.
Conclusion : rejected

2) SHENHUA, auto, $20, ( different movement)
3) ORKINA, manual, $15
4) CURREN, quartz, $15


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## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

tplummer said:


> So my question is , has the quality improved in the passing fifteen years?
> I set out to answer this question by examining four new Chinese made watches.


Welcome to Watchuseek, and to the Chinese Mechanicals forum! This sounds like an interesting test. Please keep us updated on your results.

Many of the lower-end ultraffordable Chinese watches use converted Tongji movements with inefficient auto winders grafted onto the basic movement, and many of these in fact need to be handwound regularly. I have no knowledge of the movements in your Shenhuas, but perhaps that is the case.

(Other converted Tongjis actually do have usable autowind modules. For instance, the autowinding works fine in two Fineat autos I have.)


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## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

Tplummer, I have never heard of any of these brands. I'm afraid you might be wasting your time and money. Typically people buy $50 and less watches to use them as basis for a conversion (e.g. 'bagelsport'). I'm very happy with my $45 ST16 Milsub after taking it apart and cleaning the mainspring.


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## tplummer (Feb 8, 2014)

watchcrank said:


> Welcome to Watchuseek, and to the Chinese Mechanicals forum! This sounds like an interesting test. Please keep us updated on your results.
> 
> Many of the lower-end ultraffordable Chinese watches use converted Tongji movements with inefficient auto winders grafted onto the basic movement, and many of these in fact need to be handwound regularly. I have no knowledge of the movements in your Shenhuas, but perhaps that is the case.
> 
> (Other converted Tongjis actually do have usable autowind modules. For instance, the autowinding works fine in two Fineat autos I have.)


Thanks for your post. A watch that needs to be handwound regularly probably should not be sold as an "automatic". I agree with you that the basic engineering design of the auto winder is likely inefficient to the point of "why have it?" It now is a decoration which is fun to look at. In other watches that have non functioning components sunch as dials on the front it is stated that they are non-functioning decorations only. The pendulums in my watches may indeed turn out to be exactly that.


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## tplummer (Feb 8, 2014)

The plan is to wear each for 1 week and report my results here. The autos are wound fully by hand at the start only.

Data 
----------
1) SHENHUA, auto

Stopped after 2 days, autowinding seems ok but unable to keep the watch running. Main spring exhausted.
Conclusion : rejected

2) SHENHUA, auto, ( different movement)

Stopped after 2 days, autowinding seems ok but unable to keep the watch running. Main spring exhausted.
Conclusion : rejected

3) ORKINA, manual

Conclusion : accepted

4) CURREN, quartz

Consclusion : accepted


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