# Are there any Chinese made watches that any of you guys would ever consider?



## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

I was just wondering? Does such a thing even exist?


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## GETS (Dec 8, 2011)

Not presently


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

Nope.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

I thought this would be the case but I wasnt sure. Not surprised.

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk 4


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## portauto (Nov 3, 2010)

There are some serious watches coming out of China these days. Take this Sea-Gull for instance.

Also I suspect it won't be long before one of the big watch conglomerates is acquired by the Chinese. The Chinese now own Volvo, and India's Tata own Jaguar and Land Rover. Would you shun any of these vehicles manufacturers as well?

Many laughed at Japanese products back in the 70's. And today I'm sure any of you would proudly wear a Grand Seiko.

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Serious looking, but that's about it.


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## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

one of my G-shocks is made in China. I wear that no probs


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

portauto said:


> There are some serious watches coming out of China these days. Take this Sea-Gull for instance.
> 
> *Also I suspect it won't be long before one of the big watch conglomerates is acquired by the Chinese.* The Chinese now own Volvo, and India's Tata own Jaguar and Land Rover. Would you shun any of these vehicles manufacturers as well?
> 
> ...


Certain people can fantasize all they like, but I highly doubt Swatch or Richemont or LVMH is in danger of being acquired by the Chinese anytime soon.

And while I respect Seiko and what they have accomplished since the 70's, I will stick to wearing my Swiss or German brands nonetheless. Given the huge price disparity between the Grand Seiko and its comparable Swiss or German counterpart, it would appear a disproportionate number of others feel the same way.


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## fatehbajwa (Jun 8, 2011)

I would buy any authentic Sea Gull watch, if its looks were to my liking, in a flash.


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## WnS (Feb 20, 2011)

portauto said:


>


That's a pretty sweet watch, yours?


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## portauto (Nov 3, 2010)

WnS said:


> That's a pretty sweet watch, yours?


Not quite, but I have owned several Sea-Gull's. Tourbillon isn't my complication of choice, but I can appreciate what Sea-Gull are now developing. This specific forum seems to have a lot of hate on for the Chinese, but watch them closely and you'll see the products have come a tremendously long way the past few years and will only continue to improve. With a billion people in China, there may be many fake watches coming out of the country, but I have little doubt that there are some top artisans who are developing their craft as well. These tourbillons aren't being made by children in sweatshops, and don't come with the 1000% brand and marketing markups. Also you all may be shocked to learn that most of your Swiss watches are already sourced from a huge variety of Chinese components.

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

portauto said:


> Not quite, but I have owned several Sea-Gull's. Tourbillon isn't my complication of choice, but I can appreciate what Sea-Gull are now developing. This specific forum seems to have a lot of hate on for the Chinese, but watch them closely and you'll see the products have come a tremendously long way the past few years and will only continue to improve. With a billion people in China, there may be many fake watches coming out of the country, but I have little doubt that there are some top artisans who are developing their craft as well. These tourbillons aren't being made by children in sweatshops, and don't come with the 1000% brand and marketing markups. Also you all may be shocked to learn that most of *your Swiss watches are already sourced from a huge variety of Chinese components*.
> 
> Kindest Regards,
> Portauto


Like so much of the information related to China and its manufacturing base, that's a very broad and self-serving statement without much factual support. I am fairly certain the Swiss and German watches in my collection are just that.


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## portauto (Nov 3, 2010)

westlake said:


> Like so much of the information related to China and its manufacturing base, that's a very broad and self-serving statement without much factual support. I am fairly certain the Swiss and German watches in my collection are just that.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/28/b...tighten-requirements.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


"Swatch does produce some watch components in China, Thailand and Malaysia, but the company says they are only minor parts." 
"Chinese investors have recently acquired a handful of Swiss watch companies, like Eterna and Emile Chouriet, which are still members of the Swiss industry federation." 
"Several companies that exhibited their watch wares in March at Baselworld also displayed inventive ways to tap into the value of being associated with Switzerland." 

What puts the Swiss in a Swiss Made watch? | Reuters


""Thanks to current weak Swiss laws, watches produced almost entirely in China can be sold legally under the "Swiss Made" label," Jean-Daniel Pasche, chairman of the Swiss watch federation (FH), said in a telephone interview." 
"LVMH's biggest watch brand TAG Heuer has been one of the few to publicly admit buying movement parts from Japan's Seiko while stressing this would not hurt its "Swiss Made" image." 


"Buying less crucial watch components such as cases, straps and dials from Asia, mainly China, has been common practice for decades. While luxury players and big groups can afford to make these parts in Switzerland at a higher cost, smaller and mid-sized firms in the lower-priced segment cannot, said one Swiss movement maker who asked not to be named."

Also here's a recent article concerning Mondaine using imported dials: Firm not Swiss enough to pass for Swiss-made | Archive | BDlive

Albeit these are on the lower end of the market segment, however I own a variety of watches from $100 to upwards of $10K and I am certain that some of my Swiss Made watches contain Chinese or Japanese components.

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


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## portauto (Nov 3, 2010)

Dancing Fire said:


> We are now talking Chinese made watches on the high end forum?...:-s


Would it be possible to consider a Sea-Gull in-house tourbillon in rose gold high-end? How about a Sea-Gull quarter repeater in platinum? Would these be considered more high-end than Swiss or German timepieces at a similar price point, based on the complication and use of materials? Are the tourbillon and minute repeater not considered two of the most prestigious and complex mechanisms?

Could we agree that a watchmaker who happens to be of Chinese origin may be just as skilled as someone working in Switzerland or Germany?

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


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## Molon Labe (Apr 7, 2013)

No


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## portauto (Nov 3, 2010)

Molon Labe said:


> No


I had thought that WUS was fairly opened minded given the diverse visitors from across the globe, but the elitist mentalities on this specific sub-forum are beginning to show signs of xenophobia. So high-end by definition must include the notion of the watch being made in specifically in Switzerland or Germany?

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


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## little big feather (Mar 6, 2013)

Corum and Eterna are owned by the same Chinese group......Got a Corum?


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## lmcgbaj (Aug 7, 2012)

portauto said:


> I had thought that WUS was fairly opened minded given the diverse visitors from across the globe, but the elitist mentalities on this specific sub-forum are beginning to show signs of xenophobia. So high-end by definition must include the notion of the watch being made in specifically in Switzerland or Germany?
> 
> Kindest Regards,
> Portauto


I am sorry to say but it's very difficult to have an open mind about a high end Chinese watch. There are no Swiss or German products at Dollarama. 
I don't want to sound like a snob but when I pay big money, it better not be made in china.

I hate to give a comparisons to cars but I will....

Take a look at Hyundai and Kia. They have been making amazing cars for the last 5-10 years.

Still a lot of folk remembers the crappy old Sonatas and the Pony. You cannot buy credibility and prestige by starting to make a tourbillon watch. It takes time to build trust.

For now, high end watches are either Swiss or German.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

portauto said:


> I had thought that WUS was fairly opened minded given the diverse visitors from across the globe, but the elitist mentalities on this specific sub-forum are beginning to show signs of xenophobia. So high-end by definition must include the notion of the watch being made in specifically in Switzerland or Germany?
> 
> Kindest Regards,
> Portauto


You are very bullish on the Chinese; I get that. I also believe forum contributors are, generally speaking, open to a lot of things including Chinese watches. But the notion that China is poised to invade and conquer the Swiss and German mechanical watch industry when, a mere 60 years ago, they were "Leaping Forward" from plowshares to a rudimentary industrial process is just rubbish. That said, it will take yet another "Great Leap forward" to come close to matching Vacheron, Patek, Audemars, JLC or any number of other significant manufacturers in the actual production of horologically-significant time pieces. Assuming the Chinese even get there, it will take a LOT more than cash to persuade a highly-discriminating and knowledgeable customer base to even buy such products.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

little big feather said:


> Corum and Eterna are owned by the same Chinese group......Got a Corum?


Whats a Corum?


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## SteveTomatoes (Feb 25, 2011)

Yes, this.


















Blah blah blah Tapatalk 2


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## Dancing Fire (Aug 16, 2011)

Is this high end?AATOS Tiago Review: The Cheapest Tourbillon Watch In The World? | aBlogtoWatch


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Interesting throwaway.


Dancing Fire said:


> Is this high end?AATOS Tiago Review: The Cheapest Tourbillon Watch In The World? | aBlogtoWatch


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

Dancing Fire said:


> Is this high end?AATOS Tiago Review: The Cheapest Tourbillon Watch In The World? | aBlogtoWatch


Surely not. What a horrendous design btw.


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## Mr.Sam Patek (Feb 24, 2012)

portauto said:


> Many laughed at Japanese products back in the 70's. And today I'm sure any of you would proudly wear a Grand Seiko.
> 
> Kindest Regards,
> Portauto


There is a chance that in 40 plus years a Chinese may also be looked at in a different light. Then perhaps you can argue with a stronger foundation whether the Chinese watch is high end just like they now argue re the Grand Seiko.


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## LLLLim (Oct 4, 2012)

There is a great deal of anti-Chinese sentiment coupled with ignorance operating here on this thread. If we were to say "are there any watches made by Jews" or "... Any watches made by black people..." that you guys would consider, I suspect the response would be vastly different.

Yet somehow it is ok to bash products made by Chinese. (let us not forget that Chinese is mainly interpreted as an ethnicity rather than nationality). Otherwise the one-liner racially-charged comments made above would never pass muster.

To the folks against Chinese products above, I have the following questions -

1) what firsthand experience do you have with Chinese watches. Especially the high-end sort. Since we are in the high end forum we should compare like for like. Otherwise the swiss and german watches used for comparison should be swatch or longines and stowa.

I have considerable experience with ALS and other even more impressive watches, as well as the Chinese watches spanning the gamut to 200k dollars. So if you do as well, then we can have an intelligent discussion and not have bigots dominate the narrative.

2) do you agree that a bespoke watch from a AHCI independent craftsman should be regarded as far above a commercial mass-produced (euphemistically called serially-produced) watch from even the swiss big three?

3) do you regard Eastern European and former Soviet bloc watches in the same light as Chinese watches?


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## LLLLim (Oct 4, 2012)

Watchbreath said:


> Serious looking, but that's about it.


Do you have any intelligent arguments and/or factual evidence (I will put first-hand experience beyond you) to back up your statement?

Or is a glib one-liner the only thing you have against this watch?


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

Wow, China Watchmaking Defence Forces striking back! 

I am pretty sure you guys are over reacting: the question is clear, 'are there any Chinese made watch that you guys would consider?', I imagine the question is for 'now or in the past' even if not written, as we are not a forum of precogs from Minority Report, but mere humans. 
And the answer from anyone who's a fan and a customer of PP, AP, ALS, JLC and the likes is obviously 'no', for various reasons. Will it change in the future? Oh yeah, that's a very strong possibility... I am a huge fan of Hajime Asaoka, but it took nearly 50 years to get there


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

LLLLim said:


> There is a great deal of anti-Chinese sentiment coupled with ignorance operating here on this thread. If we were to say "are there any watches made by Jews" or "... Any watches made by black people..." that you guys would consider, I suspect the response would be vastly different.
> 
> Yet somehow it is ok to bash products made by Chinese. (let us not forget that Chinese is mainly interpreted as an ethnicity rather than nationality). Otherwise the one-liner racially-charged comments made above would never pass muster.
> 
> ...


I feel I should say something in defense of all African-American Jewish watchmakers toiling-away throughout Switzerland and Germany, but for the life of me I can't seem to get the point of your religious or ethnic reference.

Perhaps you should try reading what people have written instead of letting your emotions cloud your ability for a logical understanding. We are discussing "Chinese Watches" as in those coming "From China" and/or made by "Chinese Companies." Nothing has been said that racially disparages the "Chinese" whether that as a comment on any one indigenous group or, in the general, those with citizenship within the People's Republic of China.

Getting back to the OP's original question "Are there any Chinese made watches that any of you guys would ever consider?"; I believe the consensus answer (from the majority of those contributing to this sub-thread) is "No."

And so what if we don't much care for Chinese watches in a "High-end Watch Forum?" It just means we are predominantly a heavy Swiss/German-leaning forum contributor base - not some bigoted or diabolical group-think watch crowd bent on bashing indigenous Chinese.

BTW - Swatch, the watch brand, makes mostly quartz watches and Longines, the brand, is owned by a holding company called "Swatch Group" - so not sure what you are wanting to compare. And I think Stowa is a good German watch brand but I doubt very seriously it would be considered "high-end" for this sub-forum.


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

My presence here posting my views may not be right. Becos i'm not a high-end player. The only label in my collection that is "widely" recognized as luxury class, goes to TITONI, which in fact is almost the same class as MIDO and RADO...

Here's my take on the current Chinese makes.

To date... none of the label from the China's big 3(SEAGULL, BEIJING, ShangHai) are widely recognized throughout the world that even noobs or those who're not into timepiece hobby can read out or recognize their names. Why? Lack of advertizing! So as any other higher end names such as Chronoswiss or ALS which we know. That's why...
And to those who had just stepped in to this hobby, it will take some or a little time for them to find out the existence of the Chinese big 3, yet... the only impression to them will still be the big 3 are making budget pieces with crappy quality... and perhaps low pay... in comparison to those niche makers making small quantity and selling their produce in multi-figure prices. When one steps out and sing praises to a Chinese make, 9 others will come out with 9 different models of examples, which may include Japanese makes to degrade the Chinese make.
Such poor impression and response is brought along when time passes, when the previously noob starts to upgrade their target on the widely recognizable luxury labels such as Rolex, IWC, PANERAI as well as the others. Sure, the Chinese big 3s grows along, and they make expensive pieces as well... but when it comes to serviceability, they're way behind the European makes. 

With such lack of enthusiasm, will the Chinese makes eventually make it to stand along with the European high ends? Only time will tell... 
To me, they will certainly cannot make it by the end of the next year.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

For those sincerely interested in the capabilities of at least one of the current main Chinese manufacturers, the following items may be of some interest:

The first link provides an Oct 2011 view of the new Tianjin Sea-Gull facilities AMCHPR - Sea-Gull Watch Group Marketing Ltd., Tianjin in Tianjin.

The second link (AMCHPR AlbertaTime - Ron Good in Tianjin 2013) provides a look at the Tianjin Watch and Clock Collector's Association private museum and then, following some shots of Tianjin itself, a second (Apr 2013) view of the Sea-Gull factory in some better interior detail than the first link. The TWACCA museum details (PRC) China's now almost 60 years experience in manufacturing legitimate in-house watches.

Both above links are from my personal horology-focused visits to China in 2011 and 2013.

(As an aside, in 2013, I was fortunate to meet with not only many of the top VCM and other watch collectors in China, but also the owners of China's largest watch forums as well as engineers from the 1950s and 1960s of both Tianjin Sea-Gull and Shanghai Watch Factory: AMCHPR AlbertaTime - Ron Good in Shanghai 2013: exploring Vintage Chinese Mechanical Watches with with Joel Chan, Memorigin and Shanghai Watches and AMCHPR - in Beijing 2013 with Lei Wei, Stephen Greenhalgh and Liu Shuli)

The third link is a discussion of Sea-Gull's present and future capabilities from a refreshingly objective Aries Lee, then the Deputy General Manager of Tianjin Sea-Gull. Sea-Gull. For those who might not have the time for the full interview, please allow me to quote *ES* and *AL* (*E*uropa *S*tar and *A*ries *L*ee) from the linked article.



> *ES:* Are you setting your sights on the Swiss watch market?
> 
> *AL:* The Swiss are the masters and we are the students. We make no pretensions about competing with Swiss watchmaking. One day, though, we believe that there will be a place for us in the global market. For many people, we can offer an alternative at a more affordable price. This is not a war. Just look at the situation in Switzerland. There are so many brands, each with its own style, and all are coping well in this environment.
> 
> ...


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## bmpwatch (Jul 25, 2013)

There's no way I could consider wearing a Chinese watch brand as a "quality timepiece". Never will happen for me.


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## oak1971 (Aug 19, 2013)

They seem to be making lots of progress and we all know that marketing is as powerful a tool as the product being sold. Heck half the parts on a Harley Davidson are made in China, and yet they command vast sums of cash. Hyundai now sells luxury sedans with BMW size price tags etc. I don't see it happening soon, but in 20 years who knows what they could do.


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## ImitationOfLife (Oct 15, 2010)

oak1971 said:


> They seem to be making lots of progress and we all know that marketing is as powerful a tool as the product being sold. Heck half the parts on a Harley Davidson are made in China, and yet they command vast sums of cash. Hyundai now sells luxury sedans with BMW size price tags etc. I don't see it happening soon, but in 20 years who knows what they could do.


Hyundai is Korean, not Chinese...


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## FelixL (Feb 23, 2013)

Anyway, there seems to be so many hardcore snobs here, remember, made in Japan was considered cheap garbage in the 60-70s, so was made in Korea. Most people still consider made in Korea to be sub par.


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## omegasnik (May 6, 2009)

FelixL said:


> Anyway, there seems to be so many hardcore snobs here, remember, made in Japan was considered cheap garbage in the 60-70s, so was made in Korea. Most people still consider made in Korea to be sub par.


Very well said! I totaly agree and hope that all of us chatting here meet after 20 years and re-discuss this!

Kind regards,
Nikos


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## watchma (Jul 11, 2012)

ImitationOfLife said:


> Hyundai is Korean, not Chinese...


Somehow your avatar face seems very appropriate with that comment


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

FelixL said:


> Anyway, there seems to be so many hardcore snobs here, remember, made in Japan was considered cheap garbage in the 60-70s, so was made in Korea. Most people still consider made in Korea to be sub par.


We also seem to forget that the once proud American watchmaking tradition was wiped out due to cheaply made Swiss watches, and it was only because of the quartz crisis culling the herd that we now view "Swiss Made" as a mark of quality, as opposed to the mixed bag it used to be.

I understand that there is a stigma associated with Chinese made goods, due to the proliferation of made to the lowest possible price point products for the various big box marts and dollar stores, but the lack of quality of such products reflects the fact that there is only so much that low labor costs can do to reduce prices before it starts compromising quality as well. But, Chinese watch brands like Seagull are starting to demonstrate that they can offer a quality product with a compelling value proposition, but of course that isn't the way to break into high-end watches, since value isn't a virtue when dealing with Veblen goods.

While I have a number of entry-level high-end timepieces, I also appreciate the value offered by established Chinese brands like Seagull. The thing to realize is that consciously or unconsciously, the high-end watch industry trades on romantic notions of heritage, as well as exclusivity. This explains in part the fascination with in-house movements, and why there are those who will acknowledge the quality and craftsmanship that goes into a Grand Seiko, but can't get over the "Seiko" on the dial.

While my Seagull tourbillon isn't as refined as their Swiss counterparts, it's very affordable and rather attractive, and something that I can wear casually without worrying about damaging it. My 1963 Airforce chronograph is also very nicely made, and the ST19 manual wind column wheel chronograph movement based on the Venus 175 design is robust and reliable. In particular, they provide an affordable way to obtain a quality mechanical watch with an interesting complication, and I don't have a problem with that.


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

sinner777 said:


> ...just remember that sentence every time you turn on your hi-fi or open a hood of your car.


In addition to that... we'll need to ditch our desktops and laptops into the rubbish bins. The computers we're using now are mostly, or 99% made in china with roughly 85% of chinese manufactured components...

"Bye... Bye... the high-end forum, as well as WUS! I'll miss you... cos i can't even see you with my mobile-phone, which is M.I.C too...." sob sob...


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

Ed.YANG said:


> In addition to that... we'll need to ditch our desktops and laptops into the rubbish bins. The computers we're using now are mostly, or 99% made in china with roughly 85% of chinese manufactured components...
> 
> "Bye... Bye... the high-end forum, as well as WUS! I'll miss you... cos i can't even see you with my mobile-phone, which is M.I.C too...." sob sob...


Wow, you get an A+ for drama but an F for factual accuracy.

The Following report was prepared by the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco. Federal Reserve Bank San Francisco | The U.S. Content of "Made in China"

One of my favorite quotes is the following:
_"Although globalization is widely recognized these days, the U.S. economy actually remains relatively closed. The vast majority of goods and services sold in the United States is produced here. In 2010, imports were about 16% of U.S. GDP. Imports from China amounted to 2.5% of GDP."_










While the article doesn't separate-out computers and cell phones (they are included within Durable Goods), the numbers pertaining to all Chinese manufacturing content (2.7% of total US expenditures) are so far below your "99%" number it begs the question of where you pulled that from.

A quote from an article in FORBES is also telling:

_"In 2009, iPhones contributed about $2 billion, equivalent to 0.8% of the Sino-U.S. bilateral trade deficit. One iPhone 3GS was sold for about $600. These phones were exclusively manufactured by Foxconn, a factory in a Southern Chinese city called Shenzhen. To produce them, Foxconn had to import $10.75 worth of parts from American companies. The rest of its $172.46 components came from Korea, Japan, Germany, and elsewhere. Out of a $600 iPhone, how much does China get? A puny $6.50, or 1% of the value. Apple makes vastly more. Combining with other American companies making parts, America receives close to 70% of the value. The portion of America's trade deficit against China truly contributed by iPhones based on value-added calculation is only a very small portion of $2 billion. Most of that $2 billion is, in fact, value captured by Apple and other American companies."_
Buying From China Is in Fact Buying American - Forbes

For someone clearly focused on putting forth a factual argument supporting Chinese manufacturing prowess, you might want to do some research next time before throwing-out erroneous data points...


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

ImitationOfLife said:


> Hyundai is Korean, not Chinese...


I think the point being made by the OP is that both Japanese and Korean products had an initially low reputation that has deservedly and vastly improved over a few decades.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

gagnello said:


> I was just wondering? Does such a thing even exist?


If you mean watches that buyers in this forum might consider, possibly (probably?) not, and I mean no disrespect to anyone.

However, if you mean watches that deserve to be considered high end, arguably yes.

One example:

Beijing Watch Factory's "Playing Dragon and Phoenix" piece: a _hand decorated_ one-of-a-kind "proof of capability" 2006 Beijing Watch Factory "Playing Dragon and Phoenix" tourbillon built over 11 months by a team led by Master Watchmaker Xu Yaonan which was valued at roughly $163,000 (43 jewel 18K handcarved yellow and white gold inlaid with 68 diamonds) - photos from the Beijing Watch factory website (archived)

























































2011 Europa Star article on BWF. Quoting Hong Miao, the Managing Director of BWF: "The average price of a [BWF] gold tourbillon watch is 100,000 yuans (14,000 Swiss francs [$15,000 USD] and we sold 300 of them in 2010, including a 'Playing Dragon and Phoenix' model that sold for a million yuan. [$163,000 USD]"

Article on Xu Yaonan (BWF Master Watchmaker): The test of time
His patents: Xu Yaonan - Inventor Patent Directory, Page 1


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## oak1971 (Aug 19, 2013)

ImitationOfLife said:


> Hyundai is Korean, not Chinese...


The concept remains the same. Perceptions can change over time, history has proven that and marketing people make a living off of it.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Galactic Sushiman said:


> Wow, China Watchmaking Defence Forces striking back!
> 
> I am pretty sure you guys are over reacting: the question is clear, 'are there any Chinese made watch that you guys would consider?', I imagine the question is for 'now or in the past' even if not written, as we are not a forum of precogs from Minority Report, but mere humans.
> And the answer from anyone who's a fan and a customer of PP, AP, ALS, JLC and the likes is obviously 'no', for various reasons. Will it change in the future? Oh yeah, that's a very strong possibility... I am a huge fan of Hajime Asaoka, but it took nearly 50 years to get there


But Galactic Sushiman, the movement in your Montiek MPTS-02 is Chinese made, given that it's a Seagull ST8001. Actually, if you look at the Montiek website, it sounds like all the watch parts are made in China, with only the final assembly and movement adjustment done by their watchmakers.










As you can see, the Montiek is not appreciably different in design from this watch by Perpetual Watch Company.










Again, I don't think there's necessarily a disconnect between appreciating high-end hand made watches while also appreciating very affordable watches built to a high standard of quality using a high degree of automation. I am not be able to afford a Swiss tourbillon at this point in time, and I find no shame in enjoying a Chinese made Seagull tourbillon in the meanwhile.










I will say this, I think it's good that companies like Seagull, Beijing Watch Factory, and Shanghai are proudly branding their watches as China made. A sense of pride in what you produce is an important part of developing a culture of excellence. While it will probably take some time for their products to compete with the high-end watch brands, I think they're already gaining a foothold in the affordable price point currently occupied by the likes of Hamilton and Tissot.

In particular if you're looking for an affordable mechanical watch with an interesting complication like a column-wheel chronograph with moonphase, or a tourbillon, they're really the only game in town. The rate at which the quality of their product is improving is impressive, and I think they'll be serious contenders in my lifetime. I, for one, would not hesitate to recommend a Seagull tourbillon or a Seagull moonphase chronograph to a person with caviar tastes but a tuna fish budget, on the basis of the quality of the watches they produce and the exceptional value proposition that they offer.










Looking back at my childhood, my fascination with mechanical watches came about because my dad gave me an old Omega DeVille. I rarely wore it, because I wasn't keen about the aesthetics of the watch, but I would pop the back open to look at the movement in action. My 4.5 year old son is fascinated by the movement on my Swatch Body and Soul skeleton watch, and I think he'll develop a much better appreciation for the fun of mechanical watches if we took apart a bunch of Seagull mechanical watches together than if he just stared at the display caseback of my Patek.


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## TimelessFan (Aug 19, 2013)

FelixL said:


> Anyway, there seems to be so many hardcore snobs here, remember, made in Japan was considered cheap garbage in the 60-70s, so was made in Korea. Most people still consider made in Korea to be sub par.


I'd hardly consider products from companies like Samsung, LG and Hyundai to be subpar. Japan and Korea have been vigorously working on their brands and manufacturing consumer goods that are considered "cool.". It was cool to own a Sony Walkman. It's now cool to own a Samsung Galaxy. It will always be cool to own a Nikon DSLR. It's becoming okay to drive a Hyundai and Kia.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

TimelessFan said:


> I'd hardly consider products from companies like Samsung, LG and Hyundai to be subpar. Japan and Korea have been vigorously working on their brands and manufacturing consumer goods that are considered "cool.". It was cool to own a Sony Walkman. It's now cool to own a Samsung Galaxy. It will always be cool to own a Nikon DSLR. It's becoming okay to drive a Hyundai and Kia.


China will indeed have to rediscover their rich cultural heritage. But as evidenced by the high quality manufacturing that Taiwan and Singapore are capable of, cheaply (and hence poorly) made products are not intrinsic to the Chinese ethnicity, and rather they reflect the niche they currently occupy. As living standards improve, and the cost of labor increases (already happening), the Chinese economy will have to begin transitioning to higher precision and value-added industries, this too will come with time. Japan and Korea were in similar situations when they first began to industrialize, but now we have come to associate "Made in Japan" with quality. Who's to say that this won't happen eventually?


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

mleok said:


> But Galactic Sushiman, the movement in your Montiek MPTS-02 is Chinese made, given that it's a Seagull ST8001. Actually, if you look at the Montiek website, it sounds like all the watch parts are made in China, with only the final assembly and movement adjustment done by their watchmakers.


I actually regret buying the Montiek now 

But impressed by your capacity to 'connect the dots'


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

mleok said:


> China will indeed have to overcome their communist attitudes, and indeed to rediscover their rich cultural heritage. But as evidenced by the high quality manufacturing that Taiwan and Singapore are capable of, cheaply (and hence poorly) made products are not intrinsic to the Chinese ethnicity, and rather they reflect the niche they currently occupy. As living standards improve, and the cost of labor increases (already happening), the Chinese economy will have to begin transitioning to higher precision and value-added industries, this too will come with time. Japan and Korea were in similar situations when they first began to industrialize, *but now we have come to associate "Made in Japan" with quality. Who's to say that this won't happen eventually*?


That's true for many products, but Japanese watch manufacturers still carry the stigma of "affordability" in their product offerings. As good as the Grand Seiko truly is (from many perspectives), it doesn't sell at nearly the price premium that comparable (or even inferior) models from Swiss and German companies. Why? Seiko sells watches across too broad a pricing/value range. Selling $100 Seiko quartz watches, regardless of "value", has a HUGE impact on the price premium/desirability of the Grand Seiko.

Chinese watches, regardless of quality, complication or "value" carry the same pricing/desirability stigma - only magnified across the entire Chinese watch industry. Will that change in the near future? Probably need to ask Seiko that question&#8230;


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

westlake said:


> That's true for many products, but Japanese watch manufacturers still carry the stigma of "affordability" in their product offerings. As good as the Grand Seiko truly is (from many perspectives), it doesn't sell at nearly the price premium that comparable (or even inferior) models from Swiss and German companies. Why? Seiko sells watches across too broad a pricing/value range. Selling $100 Seiko quartz watches, regardless of "value", has a HUGE impact on the price premium/desirability of the Grand Seiko.
> 
> Chinese watches, regardless of quality, complication or "value" carry the same pricing/desirability stigma - only magnified across the entire Chinese watch industry. Will that change in the near future? Probably need to ask Seiko that question&#8230;


I'm not disagreeing with your premise, as I said before, exclusivity is an important aspect of the appeal of high-end watches, and people tend not to like spending large amounts of money on watches which have the same movements as more affordable watches, or on watches that carry the same name as more affordable watches. However, it's not so clear to me that the country of manufacture will carry the same stigma given sufficient time, and given an eventual shift away from the bottom of the barrel manufacturing.

As for Grand Seiko, the issue seems to be its stubborn refusal to go the way of Acura (Honda), Lexus (Toyota), and Infiniti (Nissan) and introduce a separate upscale brand for their high end products.


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## Dancing Fire (Aug 16, 2011)

sinner777 said:


> ...just remember that sentence every time you turn on *your hi-fi or open a hood of your car*.


Don't know about yours, but mine are made in the U.S. and Japan.


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## TimelessFan (Aug 19, 2013)

mleok said:


> China will indeed have to overcome their communist attitudes, and indeed to rediscover their rich cultural heritage. But as evidenced by the high quality manufacturing that Taiwan and Singapore are capable of, cheaply (and hence poorly) made products are not intrinsic to the Chinese ethnicity, and rather they reflect the niche they currently occupy. As living standards improve, and the cost of labor increases (already happening), the Chinese economy will have to begin transitioning to higher precision and value-added industries, this too will come with time. Japan and Korea were in similar situations when they first began to industrialize, but now we have come to associate "Made in Japan" with quality. Who's to say that this won't happen eventually?


AlbertaTime,
I do business with people & companies in China. There are some truly brilliant and talented people. But when you have 1.5 billion people, it'd be highly _unusual_ if you didn't. But in order for your brand to be recognized as "high-end," its *providence* has to matter. You wouldn't go out and buy a $5,000 suit made in Malaysia, would you?


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## TimelessFan (Aug 19, 2013)

Dancing Fire said:


> Don't know about yours, but mine are made in the U.S. and Japan.


Mine are made in Germany, Japan and the good ol' USA.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

mleok said:


> I'm not disagreeing with your premise, as I said before, exclusivity is an important aspect of the appeal of high-end watches, and people tend not to like spending large amounts of money on watches which have the same movements as more affordable watches, or on watches that carry the same name as more affordable watches. However, it's not so clear to me that the country of manufacture will carry the same stigma given sufficient time, and given an eventual shift away from the bottom of the barrel manufacturing.
> 
> *As for Grand Seiko, the issue seems to be its stubborn refusal to go the way of Acura (Honda), Lexus (Toyota), and Infiniti (Nissan) and introduce a separate upscale brand for their high end products*.


Couldn't agree with you more. Its a shame really as I think that would, over time, probably help immensely.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

TimelessFan said:


> But in order for your brand to be recognized as "high-end," its *providence* has to matter. You wouldn't go out and buy a $5,000 suit made in Malaysia, would you?


Again, with respect and intending nothing personal, I think you mean _provenance_, but that like all values is properly quite personal, or should be. Or, put another way, divorcing "value" from "valuer" is nonsensical. As my friend Billy Beck put it succinctly, "There is no such thing as a value apart from a *valuer*".

That's why I haven't engaged in any "they're better or worse" stuff here; I have no quarrels with others when it comes to issues of taste. My only point here has been that there might be legitimacy if others found high-end value in some Chinese watches in the same way I find value there.

So, in my case, if I was going to spend $5000 on a suit, I'd get Steve Pelman to make it, bespoke. He's Canadian, not all that well known, but I know first hand that he does killer work, and I like him. Similarly, if I was going to buy a really premium watch, knowing what I do about watches and horological history, I'd be more personally proud to have something that Xu Yaonan worked on than anyone else, but that's personal and I don't expect or even anticipate many others would agree.

I will only say that when I speak of China and the Chinese, I speak of those I know and -- because I do know them -- I defend them as the friends they are to me, and I defend the value I find in their work.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

AlbertaTime said:


> Again, with respect and intending nothing personal, I think you mean _provenance_, but that like all values is properly quite personal, or should be. Or, put another way, divorcing "value" from "valuer" is nonsensical. As my friend Billy Beck put it succinctly, "There is no such thing as a value apart from a *valuer*".
> 
> That's why I haven't engaged in any "they're better or worse" stuff here; I have no quarrels with others when it comes to issues of taste. My only point here has been that there might be legitimacy if others found high-end value in some Chinese watches in the same way I find value there.
> 
> ...


Although not completely with you on some points, very well said and the reason why this thread has remained relatively civil even with such a divisive subject matter.


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## oak1971 (Aug 19, 2013)

I still wonder why America never developed a luxury industry. We seem more inclined to outsource our indulgence to others.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

oak1971 said:


> I still wonder why America never developed a luxury industry. We seem more inclined to outsource our indulgence to others.


*"Luxury brands are taking steps to buy more goods made in America" 
Luxury brands are taking steps to buy more goods made in America | The Columbian*


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## oak1971 (Aug 19, 2013)

westlake said:


> *"Luxury brands are taking steps to buy more goods made in America"
> Luxury brands are taking steps to buy more goods made in America | The Columbian*


That is encouraging.


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## TimelessFan (Aug 19, 2013)

AT,
I stand corrected on "provenance." It was hot at the office with our AC down. I stand by everything else I said, however. *Provenance* matters.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

westlake said:


> Although not completely with you on some points, very well said and the reason why this thread has remained relatively civil even with such a divisive subject matter.


Thanks, that's very appreciated.

I think it's not uncalled for to also mention that it's also unfair to paint legitimate Chinese manufactures like Beijing, Sea-Gull and Shanghai as if they are responsible for fakes in any specific way anymore than, say, ETA is responsible when ETA movements end up in higher cost fakes. It's probably also worth noting that Sea-Gull has been accused twice at Basel with intellectual property infringement and has won both disputes. I can provide references in both cases and the decisions were both made in demonstrably independent and objective proceedings.

There's truly no need for this to be divisive. This discussion very much ought to be about the watches themselves and not sidetracked or cheapened by poorly aimed and overly generalized drive-by smears.

I know that Chinese master watchmakers like Xu Yaonan at Beijing and others, including engineers and technicians, at other Chinese manufacturers love watches and take every bit as much pride in their work as any dedicated craftsmen anywhere. I know because I've met a number of them and spoken about these things, and because I've seen and held their work.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

TimelessFan said:


> AT,
> I stand corrected on "provenance." It was hot at the office with our AC down. I stand by everything else I said, however. *Provenance* matters.


And I agreed that it did ;-) My best regards, friend.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Galactic Sushiman said:


> Just for my information, do you know exactly who owns what on WUS, or are you just stalking me?


It's usually easy to tell what watches a member owns from their "Likes Received" in their profile. I occasionally find it useful to know what watches a person has had first hand experience with in order to place their comments in context.


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## sinner777 (Jan 13, 2013)

Dancing Fire said:


> Don't know about yours, but mine are made in the U.S. and Japan.


are you sure? do not be surprised..especially with your car.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread. Alot of contributions from both sides of the aisle, and it has stayed pretty civil for the most part. It's these kinds of discussions that keep me coming back to WUS. For me personally, I understand the stigma against Chinese products because I would be lying if I said I would consider spending high end money on anything from Seagull, Beijing or Shanghai. I don't think I would, mainly because one can get a JLC or GO or Zenith or AP or any other number of more desirable (to me) timepieces for this money. Going down the price scale produces a similar result. I also would be lying if I said I would consider spending even 300 dollars on a Chinese watch, because for that amount of money I could pick up a JDM Seiko.....also much more desirable (to me). 

The important piece of this is while what I have stated is true, it really has nothing to do with the actual quality of these watches. While I do think nearly all of the design characteristics I see in Chinese watches are lacking (again, to me), my reluctance to buy one is really based in the stigma behind Chinese made products; which really means the "percieved" quality. Even if I were to hold one in my hand and see for myself that it is made to a high standard, I still probably wouldn't buy one because I generally associate Chinese products with lower quality......and the point is that this just isnt true, in a generalized context. To me, Albertatime's posts have convinced me that some highly crafted art is coming out of China, although in small numbers and virtually unknown to anyone in the world outside of people like Albertatime. This is the kind of thing that will need a long time to change.

I think these attitudes eventually can, and will, change. It will take some time, but in the meantime all of us can continue to engage in these interesting debates.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

gagnello said:


> I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread...


Please allow me to thank you personally for your very fair and very kind post. My best regards.

Ron


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

I have a fairly intimate knowledge of both the Swiss and Chinese watch industries and would say that many people would be surprised how similar they are, or how interconnected they are. Why do you think the Swiss-Chinese FTA was signed after negotiations at a ministerial level.

In this thread so far, the folks defending Chinese watches as pieces worthy of respect have put forth well-reasoned arguments in a civil way, as have some of the folks against Chinese watches. Yet there are many in the latter camp who come across as either incredibly rude or bigoted.

Most of the latter's arguments have no reasoning or evidence at all, and instead their only conclusion is an inexplicable aversion to all things Chinese.

I see no problem in being against Chinese watches if any of you can put forth good arguments backed by hard facts. But if the only polemic is one of thinly-veiled racism or anti-Chinese sentiment, then I think such folks should take their anger and churlishness elsewhere.

I have nothing but admiration and respect for AlbertaTime and his well-thought out posts. Very, very educational and eye-opening.

To the rather disagreeable poster further up who seems to revere all that is Lange, I know 50-60 Lange collectors in the Lange Owners Club (LOC), and none of them have such small-minded, frankly ludicrous, attitudes. In my experience, truly sophisticated watch collectors and connoisseurs are able to appreciate artisanry from any nation as long as there is quality and passion (have a look at the 15 million dollar collection thread), traits that I have witnessed first-hand in Chinese watches, having owned many of them. I also have a not inconsiderable experience with Swiss and German watches, so can compare them with first-hand knowledge.

In fact I think a quote from the Lange CEO himself is rather illuminating and refreshing.This relates to the irrelevance of country of origin with regards to artisanal products, and the propensity to generalise an entire nation's watchmaking industry based on the work of their grandest names.

WT: So you're comfortable with German watches having more of a niche following?

WS: You raise an interesting point. Is there "Swiss watchmaking?" I don't think so, because in Switzerland you have the Patek Philippes and the Vacheron Constantins and you also have brands that produce 250-euro quartz watches. The same goes for Germany. You have people that assemble watches that sell for 100 euros, while our cheapest watch costs 14,200 euros. I don't think that one nationality is more qualified than another to make watches, as long as it has the proper training and engineering background. You need a culture of craftsmen and artisans, and I believe that in Germany, we are rich in that.

A. Lange & Söhne CEO Wilhelm Schmid: The WatchTime Q&A


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

"You need a culture of craftsmen and artisans, and I believe that in Germany, we are rich in that."

And to expand on that, where do you think the finest porcelain (Yuan and Ming porcelain have sold for in excess of 50 million GBP at auction) or the finest handcrafted furniture (huanghuali bed at 83 million GBP) was made? These same traditions still persist to this day, and the quality is not diminished based on my years of collecting the above, both antique and contemporary.

*

Another quote -

"This Tourbillon movement is one of the best movements I have ever seen. We gave them a quality plan and they made a great job. We sell lots of these movements to Swiss companies, which change them a little bit and use these movements for watches costing tens or hundreds of thousands."

-- a German engineer friend who used to work with IWC and now owns his own watch company, commenting on the Tianjin tourbillon.

*

I showed some of my Beijing watches to a Lange watchmaker a few months ago when I was in Glashuette on a visit, and he was impressed by both the presence of gold chatons, as well as the skill with which they were applied, on the SB18 and B24 movements. 

He was quite taken as well with the hand-cut swan neck adjuster and the fineness of the Geneva stripes (or as they say at Lange, Glashuette ribbing)


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

mleok said:


> It's usually easy to tell what watches a member owns from their "Likes Received" in their profile. I occasionally find it useful to know what watches a person has had first hand experience with in order to place their comments in context.


Oh, so, you are stalking everyone then, glad to know it's not just me 

(with all due respect, grave digging the history of a poster is VERY creepy, and strange since it basically assumes people don't change, which I am not sure of )

To the OP and other posters: excellent discussion and interesting opinions, thx all!


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## DeanAsh (May 26, 2013)

I would buy a watch from any country in the world so long as I really liked the watch. Sadly I have not seen a watch from China that I really like. The designs are not original. And the business model of many Chinese companies is to sell in numbers with low margin, so quality suffers. This may change. I'd love someone to show me a Chinese watch that takes my breath away...


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## FelixL (Feb 23, 2013)

Still at it I see. There is no right or wrong here. You can be prejudicial and hostile to Made-in-China or otherwise, no one really cares. I certainly don't care where products are made or what other people think of my buying them as long as they are a great bang for the buck.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

DeanAsh said:


> I would buy a watch from any country in the world so long as I really liked the watch. Sadly I have not seen a watch from China that I really like. The designs are not original. And the business model of many Chinese companies is to sell in numbers with low margin, so quality suffers. This may change. I'd love someone to show me a Chinese watch that takes my breath away...


There are many original designs from Chinese watchmakers. Look at the guilloche Wuyi for example.

Or the Beijing double-axis tourbillon which is the only such watch in the world with an odometer complication and a 7.5 min tourbillon. Both are not just aesthetic but technical innovations.

Beijing is also working on a 62 day power reserve watch, due to be released soon.

The high-volume, low-margin business model is a strategy not used by high-end Chinese brands.

And this model is hardly confined to Chinese enterprises. What do you call your local supermarket or fast food chain?

Would this watch take your breath away? 
????_?????????????B24????????|????xbiao.com

As far as I know in watchmaking history, there have been only 3 resonance watches (as opposed to double balance wheel watches like the Dufour Duality and the MB&F Legacy Machine 2 released two days ago). The Breguet (built by the man himself, not the conglomerate brand) which was made for the Kings of England (King George IV) and France (Louis XVIII) of which only 3 exist, the FP Journe, and the Beijing B24 in the watch linked above.

So the Beijing is one of only two true resonance wristwatches ever made in history. I prefer it aesthetically to the Journe. One might note that Journe watches are known for their tendency to break down. A friend of mine had his Journe Resonance simply stop resonating for no apparent reason. Not forgivable on a 6 digit watch I think.


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## WnS (Feb 20, 2011)

Monsieurxu, I agree with you, there are some fantastic Chinese watches out there that I'd definitely regard as high end. But you're making the assumption that everyone here is rational, clearly not the case :-(

When you argue cars and guns, the irrationality grows deeper.


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## watchvic (Aug 15, 2013)

I love my Sea-gull M222S manual wind watch. Although I don't have a high end watch collection, with most of my pieces in the $2K to $4K territory, the Sea-gull sits proudly amongst them.
The level of finishing is quite exceptional for the price and the lacquered wood box is stunning.


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## bcy (Apr 26, 2013)

monsieurxu said:


> There are many original designs from Chinese watchmakers. Look at the guilloche Wuyi for example.
> 
> Or the Beijing double-axis tourbillon which is the only such watch in the world with an odometer complication and a 7.5 min tourbillon. Both are not just aesthetic but technical innovations.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you MonsiourXu. There are some great Chinese mechanical watches out there, both in design and in innovation. Unfortunately there are many who choose to link this topic with their own colored views on China thus making this an irrational argument.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

The new Sea-Gull double-axis tourbillon, unveiled at Basel this year, possibly the most aesthetically pleasing double-axis on the market.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

Beijing's double-axis tourbillon with moonphase, released in 2009. The moonphase on the reverse is fired cloisonne enamel.

This movement and watch were both developed and built by a Chinese AHCI Master.

Along with its huge, heavy solid gold case, and deeply curved sapphire crystal, inside its movement beats an industry-first 7.5 min tourbillon and an odometer complication (measures age of watch in 12 year cycles).

Beijing recently one-upped itself by releasing a triple-axis tourbillon this year at Basel to commemorate its 55th year of founding.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

For simpler tastes, here is Sea-Gull's prototype of its new microrotor movement for its future ultrathin watches. The rotor will be 18k gold and the movement further decorated in the production pieces. Cased only in 18k rose or white gold. The movement is even thinner than the PF701 used in the Parmigiani Tonda 1950.


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## Mr.Sam Patek (Feb 24, 2012)

WnS said:


> Monsieurxu, I agree with you, there are some fantastic Chinese watches out there that I'd definitely regard as high end. But you're making the assumption that everyone here is rational, clearly not the case :-(
> 
> When you argue cars and guns, the irrationality grows deeper.


Not true, I am not irrational about my guns and only semi-irrational about my cars. On watches, if you were rational, you would buy a Casio. So, no one buying $25,000 plus watches is likely rational in the normal world.


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

Yes, tourby tourbillon.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Sorry no Chinese-made "high end" watch for me.


But a lot of misguided posts here, ranging from slight racist comments to irrelevant analogies to consumer products from Asia.

Obviously we're talking about high-end luxury products so it is unlikely that a new brand outside of Switzerland and Germany will ever be competing with the likes of Patek Philippe and A. Lange Sohne.
There is no doubt that Chinese companies will see a larger share of commodity products in near future as the likes of Lenovo appear in different industries.
There will also be lots of nascent industries dominated by Chinese companies.

But I'm quite certain that for the next 50 years, high-end watches will be dominated by the same private equity firms and a few independents just like semi high-end fashion and high-end auto will be dominated by the incumbents with long history.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

WnS said:


> When you argue cars and guns, the irrationality grows deeper.


I laughed


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## perrymoss (Sep 12, 2013)

Well it will be only a matter of time (pun intended) before the chinese buy a luxury watch brand or resurrect a classic from the ashes....
Honestly I try to avoid chinese made products when possible, but now days how can you? Were even importing food from China..FOOD for craps sake
I own over 50 pairs of Nikes and there are no illusions about where those are made.
The sea-gull is a beautiful looking watch as posted above and I know sea-gull movements are being used in numerous bargain brands such as Stuhrling but it all depends on what you are looking for. For me there is nothing that will replace the craftsmanship and styling of a fine swiss watch.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Checkout German watches.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

Watchbreath said:


> Checkout German watches.


And ill be that guy who says you should check out grand seiko if you are into craftsmenship.

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk 4


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

perrymoss said:


> Well it will be only a matter of time (pun intended) before the chinese buy a luxury watch brand or resurrect a classic from the ashes....


Maybe they already have. Seems like there are a lot of defunct names being resurrected these days. Certainly there are some entry-level Swiss names that are now Chinese owned. And with a dead brand, you can do pretty much what you like. Look what Swatch Group have done with the name of Leon Hatot. How does it relate to the things that made that name great?

However if a Chinese investment company was to pick up an _existing_ (perhaps financially struggling) Swiss high-end maker, it would be far more likely to maintain manufacturing in Switzerland by paying for new equipment or whatever i.e. buy the brand for what it is. Otherwise it's simply not worth the investment.

Let me put it this way. Suppose you had the opportunity (and the means) to buy your favorite high-end brand. Understanding what that brand means to you and to other customers and potential customers of that brand, would you:

1. Shift production to California, just because you can
2. Increase volume and diversity to attempt to bring in more of the shopping mall crowd
3. Asset strip the company, kill the brand and sell the equipment to another maker
4. Keep the brand but buy in the product from another Swiss maker
5. Keep the brand but buy in the product from a non-Swiss maker
6. Keep the brand and the facilities and ensure the viability of all that made that brand desirable in the first place?


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

Just the title of the thread on the high end forum looks wrong to me.


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## darby11 (Mar 29, 2012)

Nah


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

heuerolexomega said:


> Just the title of the thread on the high end forum looks wrong to me.


See this is why we need that forum subtitle. Lol.

Chinese watches?
Wtf


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## RejZoR (May 12, 2010)

You kinda expect large volume production stuff to be Made in China (or anywhere else where manufacturing cost is lower). However i don't mind Chinese "Made in China" products. There, it has no negative annotation to it, because well, if it's a Chinese company, it has to be Made in China. So, if it's a Sea-Gull, i don't even want it to be "Swiss made" or have a "Swiss Mvt". It's something Chinese actually made from scratch and they are pretty damn good at it. It's not some cheap knock off or a copy of something. And that's why i like it.

I also don't see a reason why Swiss would go and make watches in China. Maybe large volume low price watchmakers, but i can't imagine Rolex or any other big watch company doing that. They already ask ridiculous prices for their watches and people still buy them like crazy. So why bother moving to China if people buy them regardless of the price? Others have to optimize manufacturing to lower the costs, they basically don't have to. They just keep on ramping up the prices slowly and people (strangely) still keep on buying them. It's a phenomenon actually. Try doing that with electronics and people will just stop buying your goods.


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

Wow... it's pretty obvious that you have not taken a closer look into various pictures of the SEAGULL as well as other 2 big makers factory tours...


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

mleok said:


> As for Grand Seiko, the issue seems to be its stubborn refusal to go the way of Acura (Honda), Lexus (Toyota), and Infiniti (Nissan) and introduce a separate upscale brand for their high end products.


Actually they have Credor which is marketed above Grand Seiko. Here is a Credor Eichi limited edition


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

12 pages and only 4 or 5 examples of high end Chinese models. Pretty disappointing. 

I believe one of the problems of the Chinese watchmakers is their aesthetics - most of their top models suffer from a traditional kitschy style. Even the "Playing Dragon and Phenix" given as an example is an exceptionally well made piece but is just too busy for one's taste. This could also be a reason why westerners and also most Chinese customers prefer Swiss or German made watches.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

Orex said:


> 12 pages and only 4 or 5 examples of high end Chinese models. Pretty disappointing.


As it happens there are many models other than the four or five noted in the thread, but my point at least was only to prove the existence since some here were denying that high-end Chinese watches existed at all, and the proof that such watches do exist has been provided, as your own post attests.

Meaning no sarcasm or disrespect at all, I very much appreciate your willingness to acknowledge that. Thank you.


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## GinGinD (Feb 29, 2008)

Reminding everyone of rule 2 please. Stereotyping and political commentary will not be allowed.

Jeannie


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## jtstav (Jul 11, 2010)

Orex said:


> Actually they have Credor which is marketed above Grand Seiko. Here is a Credor Eichi limited edition
> View attachment 1222549


Thankyou. I was about to post this myself. The Credor Sonnerei is one of the watches on my unattainable grail list. The Eichi is gorgous too.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

jtstav said:


> Thankyou. I was about to post this myself. The Credor Sonnerei is one of the watches on my unattainable grail list. The Eichi is gorgous too.


I had never seen or heard of the Eichi before that post. One of the most beautiful watches Ive ever seen methinks except for those big numbers on the dial. Why oh why did they put those ridiculous numbers on there and ruin an otherwise perfect execution of simplicity??

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk 4


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

AlbertaTime said:


> As it happens there are many models other than the four or five noted in the thread, but my point at least was only to prove the existence since some here were denying that high-end Chinese watches existed at all, and the proof that such watches do exist has been provided, as your own post attests.
> 
> Meaning no sarcasm or disrespect at all, I very much appreciate your willingness to acknowledge that. Thank you.


Actually my disappointment is rather with forum members. Rather than a debate about high end Chinese pieces I would like to see the real deal - where are them? Only 5 pieces is not sufficient. There is definitely a market for them - if not in western countries, for sure in mainland China - there are enough rich people there to afford a high end Chinese next to the PP or VC in their collection.

BTW, regarding debate about market acceptance, lets not forget the Seiko lesson. Seiko tried several times to enter the international high end market in past but only recently they got market acceptance and start selling Grand Seikos abroad. Still, for many years Seiko relied on Japanese domestic market (JDM) to sell their high end pieces - they still rely heavily on it.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

gagnello said:


> I had never seen or heard of the Eichi before that post. One of the most beautiful watches Ive ever seen methinks except for those big numbers on the dial. Why oh why did they put those ridiculous numbers on there and ruin an otherwise perfect execution of simplicity??


I suspect this is because the ghost numerals are quite a subtle touch in reality and it is a challenging thing to do in enamel. It is a bit reminiscent of the ghost numerals on a Franck Muller crazy hours dial.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

gagnello said:


> I had never seen or heard of the Eichi before that post. One of the most beautiful watches Ive ever seen methinks except for those big numbers on the dial. Why oh why did they put those ridiculous numbers on there and ruin an otherwise perfect execution of simplicity??
> 
> Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk 4


The 24-7 (24 hours/day, 7 days/week) is typical for Credor Node colection. Here is another example:


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Orex said:


> Rather than a debate about high end Chinese pieces I would like to see the real deal - where are them? Only 5 pieces is not sufficient.


I'm not sure I understand your argument. Are you saying that 5 models from two manufacturers is too few for those watches to be considered 'high end', or rather that they are too few for you to confidently own one (considering after sales support etc...)?

As for more examples, here's another:




























My Chinese contributor Logan is showing us today two quite particular Sea-Gull tourbillon timepieces. He discovered them at the Hong Kong Watch & Clock Fair. | Watch-Insider.com

And an orbital tourbillon from Shanghai (i.e. tourbillon rotates and orbits the dial):










More from Sea-Gull (including dual tourbillons, repeaters and perpetual calendars):
























Beijing (including dual tourbillons, tourbillon with repeater and cloisonné dials):
































Shanghai (including dual orbital tourbillon):
























Those photos are from about 3 years ago
¸Õ²Î¼ÓÁËÒ»¸öÖÐ¹ú¸ß¶ËÍó±íÆ·¼ø»á£¬ÅÄÁËµãÍ¼´ó¼Ò·ÖÏíÒ»ÏÂ£¬²»ÖªÓÐÃ»ÓÐDXÒ²È¥ÁË¡£,ÖÐ¹ú¹ú²ú±í - °®±í×å


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

"Interesting read this thread is," said yoda.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

Would be good to read reviews on these watches same way we read on Swiss or German high ends - power of marketing...


Chascomm said:


> I'm not sure I understand your argument. Are you saying that 5 models from two manufacturers is too few for those watches to be considered 'high end', or rather that they are too few for you to confidently own one (considering after sales support etc...)?
> 
> As for more examples, here's another:
> 
> ...


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## ConElPueblo (Jan 25, 2013)

Orex said:


> Would be good to read reviews on these watches same way we read on Swiss or German high ends - power of marketing...


Beijing Watch Factory Wu Ji "Infinite Universe" Bi-Axial Tourbillon Watch Hands-On | aBlogtoWatch

There you go.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

Currently, no.

Someday, maybe.

It's more than just movements or decorations.
The Chinese watchmakers will need to make a quantum leap in innovation in wristwatches to make some sort of impact in the high-end luxury wristwatch sector. Even that would not be enough.
They will still need to focus heavily on marketing/sponsorships/endorsements/advertisements.
Another issue is QC. Chinese products have long been associated with poor QC. It has been (or rather, IS) a controversial issue that remains to this day.


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## bryan123456 (May 25, 2013)

westlake said:


> Certain people can fantasize all they like, but I highly doubt Swatch or Richemont or LVMH is in danger of being acquired by the Chinese anytime soon.
> 
> And while I respect Seiko and what they have accomplished since the 70's, I will stick to wearing my Swiss or German brands nonetheless. Given the huge price disparity between the Grand Seiko and its comparable Swiss or German counterpart, it would appear a disproportionate number of others feel the same way.


Of course he can fantasize all he likes: so can you. The biggest Swiss watch companies are very 'small beer' compared to some of the enterprises Tata (Indian) have purchased. If the Chinese desired, they have the resources - though currently other priorities. However, when Apple or Google (etc.) get to version 'n' of their new generation smart watches and decide they want the design and packaging skills of Swiss watchmakers and maybe an upmarket prestige branding niche, they'll have the capability to swallow half a dozen high end Swiss watch manufacturers from their corporate 'small change'.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Well if the automotive mergers and acquisitions are any clue, it seems like brand identity and product traits seem to be well preserved in case of takeovers.

But maybe in watch industry it will be different.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

shnjb said:


> Well if the automotive mergers and acquisitions are any clue, it seems like brand identity and product traits seem to be well preserved in case of takeovers.
> 
> But maybe in watch industry it will be different.


I suspect that specifically with 'high end' watches, brand identity and product traits will be preserved even more strongly.

It's all a question of the degree to which the product and brand define each other. Some brands _are_ worth more than their product. This was clearly deemed to be the case by the Swiss buyers of the Hamilton brand (which had been progressively leaning more towards generic Swiss for some time before) so all they kept was the name. But with the kinds of watches discussed on this forum, nothing could be further from the truth. There is nothing 'generic' (or easily reproducible by an alternative manufacturer) in this kind of watch. Going back to the automotive analogy, did Ratan Tata buy Jaguar in order to build the cars in India? Of course not.

So my feeling is that any non-Swiss investment in high-end Swiss watch manufacturing will only strengthen what is already there.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

ConElPueblo said:


> Beijing Watch Factory Wu Ji "Infinite Universe" Bi-Axial Tourbillon Watch Hands-On | aBlogtoWatch
> 
> There you go.


Thanks. More drool on my keyboard.

I will make this comment though; 'most' Chinese movement designs are _not_ actually copies of Swiss designs. At the lower end there are as many original designs and Japanese-derived designs as Swiss-derived. It's a fairly broad mix. And at the higher end they are all original designs so far as I can tell. I suspect that this is in part due to the fact that these kinds of watches have been developed in an environment more accustomed to mid-range mass production, so there may be more of a tendency towards engineering simplicity than their Swiss counterparts. (if only this simplicity could more often be matched in the aesthetics, too :-()


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

I would never (ever) buy a watch made in China. On that note I always look and buy the "not made in china" version of what ever I buy when ever possible. I almost always pay a premium, but I have learned that more times then not the made in china version as simply not well made. I know that is a stereotype, but it is one that in my experience is true.

I believe the trend of people wanting a product as cheap as possible regardless of quality is starting to shift. People are starting to care about longevity, and quality and human rights. Its not just Made in China either. I recently bought a made to measure Zegna tuxedo which was made in Italy, but to my surprise the shirt arrived with a "made in Turkey" tag on i (the shirt cost me $500). I immediately demanded my money back. I got the same old story every manufacture makes when over coming the objection "yes its made in xyz country, but its our own factory made to our standards BS". 

Call me crazy but i get a piece of mind knowing that my watch is made by people who have been making it for generations with a certain amount of pride. Similar to German engineered cars. Id drop my prefered car brand in a heart beat if they stopped making them in germany and shipped it to china. 

China can keep their melamine, iron high paint in baby toys, poised pet food and deplorable human rights and "knock it off" mentality. If im paying premium I not only want the product, but the piece of mind of who made that product and under what conditions.

I often hear poeple post that wearing a watch partially represents who they are. In that case i wouldnt wear the best made in china watch even if it was a gift. Swiss, German and Japanese only.


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

Sassicaia said:


> ...I believe the trend of people wanting a product as cheap as possible regardless of quality is starting to shift. People are starting to care about longevity, and quality and human rights. Its not just Made in China either. I recently bought a made to measure Zegna tuxedo which was made in Italy, but to my surprise the shirt arrived with a "made in Turkey" tag on i (the shirt cost me $500). I immediately demanded my money back. I got the same old story every manufacture makes when over coming the objection "yes its made in xyz country, but its our own factory made to our standards BS".
> 
> Call me crazy but i get a piece of mind knowing that my watch is made by people who have been making it for generations with a certain amount of pride. Similar to German engineered cars. _Id drop my prefered car brand in a heart beat if they stopped making them in germany and *shipped it to china*_...


WOOW.... Is that a leak that's you're from China?

Anyway... i think we can jump onto a small boat and peddle together for a small ride. 
Why? 
Because i gave up the hometheater audio hobby when most of the equipments in the market are printed with "Made In China" label, and sold @ European, American prices . And that was numbers of years back... However, in today's electronic and audio world we have to accept those things that are M.I.C because almost every makers out there want to make it big! POLK AUDIO, CERWIN VEGA, BOSTON ACOUSTIC, JBL, INFINITY, WHARFEDALE, KEF, YAMAHA, PIONEER, ROTEL, NAD as well as lots of others.... whatever you can name, they're now MADE IN CHINA! Or... perhaps if you're in luck, you may find one that is printed with Made In XXX except China. But don't be surprise that when you open up the covers, you may see... ehem... CHINA!!!

What's my point? Well... in today's world, 70%(or more) of the products around have CHINA DNA in it. Even watches are so! When a maker claims that the crystal glass they used are sapphire, do you think they really dig thru the whole European region grounds for sapphire stones and bring it back to the plants to do further polishing and finishing? In addition to those components in a watch movement, of any high-end makes. So as the others that you may think is 100% SWISS, GERMAN, FRENCH, ITALIAN, or... JAPANESE breed?
Why are watches named as SWISS Watch, German Watch or JAPANESE Watch with their respective country names printed on the dial that starts with "MADE IN"? What is the definition of MADE? Ever have a deep thought about that?

Edit: Just to add...
Sent from my BlackBerry Z10 which is made in mexico, with canadian QC, and component sourced all over the world, including china, that the battery powers up the device.


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## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> Call me crazy but i get a piece of mind knowing that my watch is made by people who have been making it for generations with a certain amount of pride. Similar to German engineered cars. Id drop my prefered car brand in a heart beat if they stopped making them in germany and shipped it to china.


Shockingly, many German engineered cars are made in America! I know, I know. Hopefully not your preferred brand, though.

VW Germany, Spain, Mexico, USA, Poland, China, South Africa
BMW Germany, USA (Alabama, from memory)
Porsche Germany, Austria, Poland
Mercedes Germany, USA, Italy (for a little while longer), Poland, China (sort of)
Audi (see VW)

It's a global economy, so they tell me.

If it makes you feel any better, Bugattis truly are made in Molsheim, Alsace. Fabulous German engineering (VW) but the Alsace is in France these days. Oh, and Rolls Royce's (German engineering) are still *made* in Crewe, England... but Bentley's? More German engineering (VW), of course. No longer made in Crewe.

Where were we? Forgotten now...

Ric


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

Just a little addition to your list...


Ric Capucho said:


> Shockingly, many German engineered cars are made in America! I know, I know. Hopefully not your preferred brand, though.
> 
> VW Germany, Spain, Mexico, USA, Poland, China, South Africa, *INDONESIA*
> BMW Germany, USA (Alabama, from memory), *THAILAND and MALAYSIA for some right-hand drive models*
> ...


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

Ric Capucho said:


> Shockingly, many German engineered cars are made in America! I know, I know. Hopefully not your preferred brand, though.
> 
> VW Germany, Spain, Mexico, USA, Poland, China, South Africa
> BMW Germany, USA (Alabama, from memory)
> ...


Im aware many "german" cars are not made in German and sometimes its certain series of cars made outside of Germany. Like the Zegna shirt (unlike the tux) would get my business. If I was hypothetically buying a an M5 BMW, but found out the M5 was made in mexico rather then germany I would simply not buy it. No chance.

I always ask where things are made.

The whole "its a global market" is nice and gets thrown around a lot. My dollars however are not global. If someone is going to make something in China, but price it like its being made at home they can keep it.

Its no different then if my favourite wine producer said "we no longer make wine in France we make it in China, but we own our own vineyard there and keep things to the same standard." To me there are many things about the environment, culture and history about where top quality things are made to simply out source it to where ever and hide behind the "its a global market. Its always been a global market, that doesnt mean poor results wont happen because product is outsourced the cheapest bidder.

The worst is when the Brand still charges premium as if its made local, but ends up making in third world. i.e. much of Prada. $500 for a pair of shoes made in Vietnam? lol. No thanks.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Unless it's real high end stuff, who cares where it is made?
Do minimum wage workers make worse products than union protected tea drinking workers?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

I think you might be confusing a couple of things:

1. Non-Chinese brands that now have their products made in China
2. Chinese branded products made in China.

What we are discussing here are those Chinese watches that might be considered 'high end', and they all definitely fall into the latter category, proudly marked 'made in China' where you can read it clearly, and priced according to what they think their own brand is worth. No deception. They are exactly what they claim to be.

I understand that you might be concerned about the global dominance of the Chinese economy and wish to take a personal stand against that in your purchasing decisions. That's a moral choice and I have absolutely no argument against that.

But I hope you are entirely clear about what exactly you are taking a stand on.

You mentioned a few things:


> ...China can keep their melamine, iron high paint in baby toys, poised pet food and deplorable human rights and "knock it off" mentality...


Melamine: Right. So a deliberate criminal act to circumvent a nationally mandated product quality test. The perpetrators were caught and punished. Nothing systemic there, so far as I can see. Nothing to do with watches either. Or export products.

'Iron high' paint: I think you mean 'lead'. Again, there are standards. The last case that I heard of, the contamination was discovered by the Chinese authorities who informed the American importers to pull the product. The perpetrator lost his business. No Americans were actually exposed to risk. Looks like the system is working. But still nothing to do with watches, which is what we were talking about here.

Poisoned pet food: Fair enough. Buy local pet food. But I can tell you that my generally high-standard law-abiding country (Australia) has seen far more local food contamination issues than imported ones. It happens all over. And it has nothing to do with watches.

Human rights: Definitely some real issues there, but in the high end of the watch industry? Seriously? The tourbillon pictured above was hand-made by the senior watch maker at BwaF who has been with the company since it was founded. If there is any human rights issue there it is that nobody has taken him aside and gently suggested that he is decades overdue for retirement.

Knock off mentality: That's an easy one. Don't buy fakes. Tell your friends not to buy fakes. (and buy non-fake Chinese products to set a good example :-d)

But as I said, your buying choices are entirely your own and I respect that.


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## Timepieces of Class (Sep 21, 2013)

WnS said:


> That's a pretty sweet watch, yours?


Here in Pakistan Chinese brands are quite famous cause they show off similar looks that Original watches do with the plus factor of an affordable price, one brand I definitely go for time in and time again is 'Mseta' check it out


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Timepieces of Class said:


> Here in Pakistan Chinese brands are quite famous cause they show off similar looks that Original watches do with the plus factor of an affordable price, one brand I definitely go for time in and time again is 'Mseta' check it out


I've never heard of this brand, but nothing really caught my eye on Internet search. How is the quality/fit and finish?


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> I've never heard of this brand, but nothing really caught my eye on Internet search. How is the quality/fit and finish?


Like any other el-cheapo Chinese brand you can buy on ebay.;-)
;-)


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Okapi001 said:


> Like any other el-cheapo Chinese brand you can buy on ebay.;-)
> ;-)
> View attachment 1228910


gotcha! Understood.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

I looked at the 'Playing Dragon and Phoenix' by Beijing Watch.

If this is the best that China can offer, then they stand no chance against the Swiss, Germans, or Japanese.

They have to look at exemplary pieces for inspiration (ie. Jaquet Droz Charming Bird, Harry Winston Opus 9, Credor SD Sonnerie) and surpass those pieces both in features and build quality.
I know it is easier said than done, but that is the only way they can change their image to most of the public.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

entropy96 said:


> I looked at the 'Playing Dragon and Phoenix' by Beijing Watch.
> 
> If this is the best that China can offer, then they stand no chance against the Swiss, Germans, or Japanese


I'm genuinely curious since you included the Japanese. What have the Japanese produced that exceeds the Dragon Phoenix? I'm not trying to be contrary; I'm just not at all well enough versed in high end Japanese horology to know.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

AlbertaTime said:


> I'm genuinely curious since you included the Japanese. What have the Japanese produced that exceeds the Dragon Phoenix? I'm not trying to be contrary; I'm just not at all well enough versed in high end Japanese horology to know.


Take a look at Credor's Masterpiece line:

MASTERPIECE�bCREDOR

Also, check some of the works by Japanese independent watchmakers like Masahiro Kikuno and Hajime Asaoka.


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## liujin08 (Mar 13, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> To me there are many things about the environment, culture and history about where top quality things are made


You sir are a racist


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## liujin08 (Mar 13, 2012)

entropy96 said:


> I looked at the 'Playing Dragon and Phoenix' by Beijing Watch.
> 
> If this is the best that China can offer, then they stand no chance against the Swiss, Germans, or Japanese.


That watch is marketed to the local Chinese market. People there have different aesthetic tastes, especially the target market for this model. So basically, they don't give a crap what you think.


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

entropy96 said:


> I looked at the 'Playing Dragon and Phoenix' by Beijing Watch.
> 
> If this is the best that China can offer, then they stand no chance against the Swiss, Germans, or Japanese...


Okay guyz... this sounds like a challenge being declared!

Lets take a look again at the candidates!
The German interpretation of the Chinese Dragon...

The Gold Dragon... (Aww... doesn't the dragon looked very lonely?)








priced @ 14.9k Euro
Répétition Squelette Dragon Ball Edition Pièce Unique

The Blue Dragon... (Doesn't the Dragon seems to have a bad day in the office?)








priced @ 16.9k Euro
Répétition Crystal Dragon Edition Pièce Unique

vs
SEAGULL's The Universe circled with the energy of fortune carried with the dragons(海鸥"龙祥寰宇")








hmm... did i see 2 dragons or just one? Most importantly, it's a turbillion!


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

liujin08 said:


> You sir are a racist


How is that racist?!

I like Bordeaux wine because of the environment its made (terroir), the pride and knowledge past down from previous generations, and the rich history. I think about all those things when I open a drink a bottle. Sorry, but if Mounton Rosthchild outsourced their winery to China you would not get the same wine. Nor would I ever buy another bottle.

Believing that makes me racist?

Im racist because I have a piece of mind behind my Vacheron being made in Switzerland by Swiss people and do not believe the same level of quality could be yielded if they outsourced it all to China?

What about if Ferrari made their cars in Bangladesh? Would the integrity of their brand be tarnished? In my opinion yes.

If that makes me racist then so be it. I see value and beauty with things that come from cultures with a rich history of passion and success behind the said product. Im not Swiss, German or Italian yet feel with the above examples they excel.

Further, I dont feel China has done enough for human and animal rights for me to have any desire to support it financially when i have a choice not to.

I could care less if people think im racist because of that. I have equally poor opinions for those that think products that come from countries which have proven themselves to excel should be outsourced to the cheapest bidder. I have equally poor opinions for people who choose the cheapest option above all else, and companies which outsource high end brands to widen margins in exchange for loosing brand integrity and local jobs. It dilutes culture which in my opinion is worse than racism.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

No, the third is less important, the top one is a repeater!


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

Ed.YANG said:


> Okay guyz... this sounds like a challenge being declared!


Trust me...
You wouldn't want me to post a barrage of Haute Horlogerie pics on this thread.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

entropy96 said:


> Take a look at Credor's Masterpiece line:
> 
> MASTERPIECE�bCREDOR
> 
> Also, check some of the works by Japanese independent watchmakers like Masahiro Kikuno and Hajime Asaoka.


Very appreciated. Thank you.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Some Invictas maybe?


entropy96 said:


> Trust me...
> You wouldn't want me to post a barrage of Haute Horlogerie pics on this thread.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

Watchbreath said:


> Some Invictas maybe?


Or maybe some of this:









(courtesy of Mitch100)


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

entropy96 said:


> Trust me...
> You wouldn't want me to post a barrage of Haute Horlogerie pics on this thread.


Oooh... yess!
Let's dig some Dragons from Europe! ...err... wait! Just to be fair... Dragons by European hands, no Chinese artists work please...


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

Ok... perhaps just to clear the smoke abit, just in case why did i bring such challenge here.

What makes a brand to the High-End status?
1. Is it about the Engineering of the movement of a Timepiece that takes lots of time or years to perfect, then release in limited numbers?
2. Is it about the design and perfection of workmanship that takes lots of time or years to achieve, then release in limited numbers?
3. Or... is it about the artistry... that makes an timepiece a art? That requires not only time spent on perfection, but the person who can make a watch good looking? And sought after?

The dragon thing, in the past... perhaps more than 20years or even 50years ago... never seems to appear on the face of European watches. So as the difference in Western impression of how a dragon, looks, compare to that of the Eastern Oriental impressions. In recent years, European high-enders names get boosted, not because the growing chinese market for luxury watches just on their names, but also from the work on the dials. 
And such art, are often from the hands of the artist who may not be an European, of non Asian race.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

Ed.YANG said:


> Oooh... yess!
> Let's dig some Dragons from Europe! ...err... wait! Just to be fair... Dragons by European hands, no Chinese artists work please...


Don't try me.


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## Ettore Castellano (Sep 19, 2013)

Yes.....this Parnis Big Pilot lefty, it is now a month I have it and keeps same perfect timing as my Glycine Incursore.
Parnis costed me 80euros, Glycine almost 1k


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:think: That top Winston has me thinking, F.P. Journe Cal 1499-2.


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## AlbertaTime (Dec 27, 2008)

entropy96 said:


> Don't try me.


Perhaps I'm missing something, but the challenge as I understood it was not random photos of admittedly beautiful haute horologerie, but haute horologerie _regarding "dragons"_.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

Ettore Castellano said:


> Yes.....this Parnis Big Pilot lefty, it is now a month I have it and keeps same perfect timing as my Glycine Incursore.
> Parnis costed me 80euros, Glycine almost 1k


??

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk 4


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

I _don't_ think that you are racist.

Making 'Bordeaux' wine in China would be as pointless as making a 'Playing Dragon & Phoenix' watch in Switzerland.

But again, we seem to be getting sidetracked with the issue of Western product manufacture being outsourced to China, which has nothing to do with Chinese designed/manufactured/branded high-end watches and whether or not they have any appeal for the members of this forum.

Also...


Sassicaia said:


> Further, I dont feel China has done enough for human and animal rights for me to have any desire to support it financially when i have a choice not to.


Where have these things occured in the Chinese watch industry to your knowledge?

'China' is not a single corporation. It is a very large and diverse nation. Recognise that fact and you will be able to make purchasing choices with far more clarity. (and it still might not change what you will buy, but that's OK too)


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## Sedi (May 21, 2007)

Sorry that I won't read the whole thread but did anybody mention Kiu Tai Yu yet? Or maybe Xushu Ma?
Kiu Tai Yu Watches
One's a member of the AHCI and the other on the list of candidates.

cheers, Sedi


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## GinGinD (Feb 29, 2008)

I've seen enough political commentary and stereotyping. With regret to those able to have a vital interesting and actually horological discussion, thread closed.

Jeannie


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