# What exactly is zaratsu polishing



## asianavatar

I keep seeing the term. I definitely see the results. Is there some place where I can read more about it. So far all I have found is, not sure which is true or not

-it was a technique used to polish swords
-only two people who make grand seikos are allowed to do this technique (seems false)

Other than that I can't seem to find much else.


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## T1meout

Well it's a closely guarded secret, only divulged to the initiated. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.


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## ten13th

First rule of Zaratsu polishing is you don't talk about Zaratsu polishing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## asianavatar

ten13th said:


> First rule of Zaratsu polishing is you don't talk about Zaratsu polishing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Damn it...I have cookies to trade for secrets.


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## Boomerdw

I understand that a tin plate is used for polishing. Something about taking the distortion out. Too high a heat via rpm or grit can leave a wavy finish.

Here is a short explanation I came across:"Every surface of each case and bracelet is polished by the experienced craftsmen. The mirror finish on the case side surface has no distortion. The process is known as Zaratsu or blade polishing and is made by carefully applying a rotating tin plate against the case at a very precise angle. This process is entrusted to only the most skillful and experienced craftsmen."

basically, it's tin polishing for the case. The same procedure (polishing steel on tin plates with ultra fine diamond paste) is done by brands like Glashutte Original for their swan necks and other brands for steel components to attain what is known as black polishing, where the surface is so highly polished it looks black from certain angles.


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## uncle234

It is basically watch case / bracelet polishing.

"Zaratsu" is a marketing name used by Seiko. Like how Apple chooses to call their displays "Retina" displays or how Rolex calls their lume "Chromalight".


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## vintage_collectionneurs

lol doesn't matter what you call it, at the end of the day its still polishing and not rocket science. At the end of the day Grand Seikos just like other Japanese products are all very well made.


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## asianavatar

Boomerdw said:


> I understand that a tin plate is used for polishing. Something about taking the distortion out. Too high a heat via rpm or grit can leave a wavy finish.
> 
> Here is a short explanation I came across:"Every surface of each case and bracelet is polished by the experienced craftsmen. The mirror finish on the case side surface has no distortion. The process is known as Zaratsu or blade polishing and is made by carefully applying a rotating tin plate against the case at a very precise angle. This process is entrusted to only the most skillful and experienced craftsmen."
> 
> basically, it's tin polishing for the case. The same procedure (polishing steel on tin plates with ultra fine diamond paste) is done by brands like Glashutte Original for their swan necks and other brands for steel components to attain what is known as black polishing, where the surface is so highly polished it looks black from certain angles.


So the main point is to get a mirror finish shine with no distortion. That is what I wanted to know. Thanks


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## bluedialer

The GS polishing is beautiful, excellent. But, I never really understood this "no distortion" business. Any polished surface, no matter how flawlessly done, where the surface has any curvature (as on most surfaces on a watch case) is going to present a distorted reflection. And then the polish on the sides of the snowflake case has that very fine "orange peel" dimpled texture... I think it's nice and all personally, but isn't that distortion?


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## EDL77

Don't you know..its the bosses teenage son in the back room..does all of that..Zaratsu stuff..he get $4.75 per hr...lol...


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## Boomerdw

Well you can see with a distortion free surface, even if it has some curvature, the reflection is ultra clear like a mirror. 

A poorly polished surface will show waves or ripples among its poor reflective qualities.

It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp, especially if you have had a hand at polishing.

This isn't to say that other manufacture's can not compete with GS in this area, a few do.

But in the end GS is exemplary.


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## bluedialer

Hmm, ok. what's kinda funny is that I spend time closely examining and admiring the very very faint characteristic wavy texture of the zaratsu on my 44gs case lugs. Same with the aforementioned dimpled texture on the sides of the Snowflake. It is quite lustrous, but they're not truly distortion free surfaces. I happen to enjoy the characteristic faint patterning left by the zaratsu application though.


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## dbskevin

Just wondering, is it really that hard to get a mirror-like finishing with no distortion??


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## Boomerdw

No not really but it takes a series of steps and knowhow in refining the grit so as to polishing/remove the higher girt marring.

Also factors such as heat (speed of buffer wheel) buffer material used in what stage etc.

Just need all the correct materials an some practice and knowhow.

I have never worked with the "tin plate" so I have no clue as to this method.

It does present very good end finishing no doubt.

A shiny surface isn't always the best reflection. You need smoothness of surface to really get the reflective light to excel.

Just look at a new car paint finish. It will be real shiny but if you look closely and at an angle you will see orange peel or wave like surface in the paint. This is because the paint isn't smooth get it smooth and the paint will have more depth of reflection and really look totally different. This can be accomplished with sanding and is a touchy endeavor but it is what all the show cars do to achieve the amazing reflection and depth in the paint.

It truly is a craftsmen job.


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## Jim Smyth

dbskevin said:


> Just wondering, is it really that hard to get a mirror-like finishing with no distortion??


No it isnt hard to polish titanium. I polish Titanium all the time to a mirror surface. To me its a marketing term they use to try to sell there product as being Superior. I would say its harder to machine titanium than polish it.


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## Alysandir

dbskevin said:


> Just wondering, is it really that hard to get a mirror-like finishing with no distortion??


From what I have heard, it is rather difficult to do with titanium, as titanium is too "gummy" (their word, not mine) to be high polished in most situations.

Regards,
Alysandir


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## mrfourcows

EDL77 said:


> Don't you know..its the bosses teenage son in the back room..does all of that..Zaratsu stuff..he get $4.75 per hr...lol...


And is your teenage son using your account again? :think:


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## mrfourcows

Jim Smyth said:


> No it isnt hard to polish titanium. I polish Titanium all the time to a mirror surface. To me its a marketing term they use to try to sell there product as being Superior. I would say its harder to machine titanium than polish it.


curious: you do this for a living?


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## Deli

Jim Smyth said:


> No it isnt hard to polish titanium. I polish Titanium all the time to a mirror surface. To me its a marketing term they use to try to sell there product as being Superior. I would say its harder to machine titanium than polish it.


What Ti grade do you mirror polish all the time ?


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## Jim Smyth

Not trying to get orders since I havent taken them in a very long time. Smyth Custom Knives I mainly work in 6AL4V titanium but also specialize in Timascus and Mokuti polishing/coloring. To me all Ti works about the same. To machine it, it is gummy compared to other metals. But for polishing its no big deal. The skill IMO comes in on polishing it and not rounding off sharp corners.


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## Ahriman4891

I tried Googling "Zaratsu katana polishing", "Zaratsu blade polishing", "katana polishing", &c. several times in the past. The only results with the words "Zaratsu" and "blade" or "katana" appearing together lead to discussions on various watch forums. I don't think official Seiko press releases mention anything about blades; the whole katana connection seems to be constructed by over-eager fans or maybe even dealers, to pump up the Japanese mystique of GS.

I suspect "Zaratsu" is a Japanization of the German "Sallaz" (pronounced "Zallats", if I remember my German correctly; imagine it go through the typical Japanese L-R substitution). I.e. polishing done on the Sallaz machine. Some article mentioned a fire in the Hayashi Seiki shop, and the first thing they tried to save was their irreplaceable vintage Sallaz machine. My suspicion is supported by this: https://jgoodtech.smrj.go.jp/info/report04-01?locale=en where they just call Sallaz by its proper Western name.

Hayashi Seiki are not the only ones to use Sallaz machines, either: SALLAZ Polishing - MINASE


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## Boomerdw

Very nice work, I have a little collection of folding knives.

Nothing as fancy as your work. Although I do own a William Henry with a ZDP-189 blade.

I would say that you have experience with polishing...


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## Jim Smyth

Thanks, I have literally hundreds of hours polishing over 20 years. Doesnt take too long to figure it out. I am sure for the Grand Seiko line its only the most experienced polishers that get to touch those watches. I am sure there watches come off a CNC machine with just light polishing needed after that. The skill level comes in with not rounding off all the corners which is easy to do especially with titanium. But a lot of the angles on my SBGA031 are soft and rounded (not boxy like a Rolex) which I prefer and you dont have to be as accurate there. They do a good job but it isnt rocket science. ;-)


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## JoeKirk

asianavatar said:


> I keep seeing the term. I definitely see the results. Is there some place where I can read more about it. So far all I have found is, not sure which is true or not
> 
> -it was a technique used to polish swords
> -only two people who make grand seikos are allowed to do this technique (seems false)
> 
> Other than that I can't seem to find much else.


I have the next Understanding GS thread set to probably post next week which will feature how cases are made and finished. I think everyone will enjoy it and it does answer a lot of questions of how much effort goes into making compared to others. FYI - there is a similarity in making to how katana's are finished (obtaining mirror surface) and there are only 2 doing Zaratsu at the Shiojiri facility for Spring Drive/Quartz (I only saw one, but heard there was 2) and I believe there are 4 for the Morioka division. Still not a lot.


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## JoeKirk

bluedialer said:


> The GS polishing is beautiful, excellent. But, I never really understood this "no distortion" business. Any polished surface, no matter how flawlessly done, where the surface has any curvature (as on most surfaces on a watch case) is going to present a distorted reflection. And then the polish on the sides of the snowflake case has that very fine "orange peel" dimpled texture... I think it's nice and all personally, but isn't that distortion?



















The distortion free aspect comes from the purity of reflection, with as crisp edges of the reflection as you would see in real life. This image above (because it's a flat lug) gives the best expression of this. Curved parts of the case will still show curing in its reflection, but it's overall crispness. Hope this is some help. Also note, any blurring of the text in the image is from my macro lens!


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## JoeKirk

Boomerdw said:


> No not really but it takes a series of steps and knowhow in refining the grit so as to polishing/remove the higher girt marring.
> 
> Also factors such as heat (speed of buffer wheel) buffer material used in what stage etc.
> 
> Just need all the correct materials an some practice and knowhow.
> 
> I have never worked with the "tin plate" so I have no clue as to this method.


All very true. A part of what makes Zaratsu special is the abrasive material used (which can vary depending on the metal). All of which are undisclosed by Seiko. Know how is definitely important. Most of the guys doing Zaratsu have been polishing 40+ years (I think there is one guys who has about 20). The tin plate can easily damage the case, this is where the skill comes into play. All great comments Boomerdw!


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## JoeKirk

Jim Smyth said:


> No it isnt hard to polish titanium. I polish Titanium all the time to a mirror surface. To me its a marketing term they use to try to sell there product as being Superior. I would say its harder to machine titanium than polish it.


The difference is in the alloy that Seiko uses which is proprietary. It's slightly harder than 316L steel in hv, so that is really the biggest difference.


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## JoeKirk

Jim Smyth said:


> Not trying to get orders since I havent taken them in a very long time. Smyth Custom Knives I mainly work in 6AL4V titanium but also specialize in Timascus and Mokuti polishing/coloring. To me all Ti works about the same. To machine it, it is gummy compared to other metals. But for polishing its no big deal. The skill IMO comes in on polishing it and not rounding off sharp corners.


Your knives are incredible! I can see why you wouldn't want to be taking orders. I bet you're backlogged for life.


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## JoeKirk

Ahriman4891 said:


> I tried Googling "Zaratsu katana polishing", "Zaratsu blade polishing", "katana polishing", &c. several times in the past. The only results with the words "Zaratsu" and "blade" or "katana" appearing together lead to discussions on various watch forums. I don't think official Seiko press releases mention anything about blades; the whole katana connection seems to be constructed by over-eager fans or maybe even dealers, to pump up the Japanese mystique of GS.
> 
> I suspect "Zaratsu" is a Japanization of the German "Sallaz" (pronounced "Zallats", if I remember my German correctly; imagine it go through the typical Japanese L-R substitution). I.e. polishing done on the Sallaz machine. Some article mentioned a fire in the Hayashi Seiki shop, and the first thing they tried to save was their irreplaceable vintage Sallaz machine. My suspicion is supported by this: https://jgoodtech.smrj.go.jp/info/report04-01?locale=en where they just call Sallaz by its proper Western name.
> 
> Hayashi Seiki are not the only ones to use Sallaz machines, either: SALLAZ Polishing - MINASE


The marketing of katana blade polishing with Zaratsu derived from Ananta (which the site is no longer up since it is discontinued), because it's case was designed inspired by katana blades. They said the polishing technique was a distortion free mirror finish, just as the katana blade, which is where the similarity came into play.

And you are correct... Zaratsu derived from Sallaz.


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## JoeKirk

Jim Smyth said:


> Thanks, I have literally hundreds of hours polishing over 20 years. Doesnt take too long to figure it out. I am sure for the Grand Seiko line its only the most experienced polishers that get to touch those watches. I am sure there watches come off a CNC machine with just light polishing needed after that. The skill level comes in with not rounding off all the corners which is easy to do especially with titanium. But a lot of the angles on my SBGA031 are soft and rounded (not boxy like a Rolex) which I prefer and you dont have to be as accurate there. They do a good job but it isnt rocket science. ;-)


That's true. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, the polishers mostly have 40+ years experience (with the exception of 1 I believe). I'll explain more on Seiko's case manufacturing soon so you see the get the whole process. CNC is only used as a final step to remove a small amount after cold forging. It's not the primary method of shaping. The 031 as well as a few other models have more rounded edges, but if you've seen the 44GS case like on the SBGJ's (as well as a handful of others) there are a lot of sharp edges.


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## StephenCanale

vintage_collectionneurs said:


> lol doesn't matter what you call it, at the end of the day its still polishing and not rocket science.


But if you added just a dab of rocket fuel to your rouge, then you could sort of call it rocket science, right?


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## T1meout

JoeKirk said:


> I have the next Understanding GS thread set to probably post next week which will feature how cases are made and finished. I think everyone will enjoy it and it does answer a lot of questions of how much effort goes into making compared to others. FYI - there is a similarity in making to how katana's are finished (obtaining mirror surface) and there are only 2 doing Zaratsu at the Shiojiri facility for Spring Drive/Quartz (I only saw one, but heard there was 2) and I believe there are 4 for the Morioka division. Still not a lot.


I'm looking forward to the next installment.


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## Jim Smyth

Looking forward to the videos Joe, Thanks.


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## percysmith

T1meout said:


> Well it's a closely guarded secret, only divulged to the initiated. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.





ten13th said:


> First rule of Zaratsu polishing is you don't talk about Zaratsu polishing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chrono Brewer

Five-year necropost to share a typo?


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