# What would happen if we stopped using PayPal



## Yao (Dec 12, 2006)

I have started thinking about new ways to streamline our processes here to allow more time for customer e-mails. After the burglary I realized that our time is still scheduled too tight. As they say "**** happens!" and while I hope that future distractions will be far less serious than a burglary I still have to create more slack in the way we do things. The reality is PayPal is convenient for customers but it creates a huge problem on the administration side since the PayPal processes can't be automated with our systems. Also when we go to balance our accounts at the end of month their system is "less than helpful" - i.e. a POS. ;-)

So the basic question is how important is the PayPal payment option to you? I want to get a straw poll going here and then if it makes sense send out a broader poll before we make a decision. You are welcome to post additional comments in this thread after voting.


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## kkmark (Feb 23, 2009)

I wouldn't have a problem passing my credit card details on to Mk II. I do that with many other online merchants. I can only think of two instances where my card info was taken and stuff was charged to it but both times it was at a restaurant somewhere. I was never out of pocket though, just had to sign a form and the charges were reversed.


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## Lord Monocle (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm with Mark. I had forgotten that I used Paypal to buy my MKII...if I did. The only advantage paypal gives me is I can use it as my watch-trading "slush fund," where proceeds from sales go in, then I purchase from it, so it never really feels like it was money. It's just the liquid portion of my watch collection.


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## navyman (Dec 9, 2008)

I also wouldn't mind sharing my credit card info with MKII. Mr. Yao runs a reputable business that I trust.


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

Bill,

I'm an active and avid user of Paypal, but if they're slowing you down in any way I'd burn up that arrangement quicker than gasoline-soaked birchbark kindling tossed into a bonfire. Just my $0.02

Cp


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Hey Bill, with the business you bring, you should have a PayPal rep working to smooth out your problems. Drop me a PM or email.


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## heebs (Nov 9, 2008)

I'd be 100% OK to pay with my CC. While like Lord Monocle, I do sort of use my paypal account as my watch fund, but MkII is special and if it speeds things up then I'm all for paying direct. 

Bill, we need to keep you relaxed and busy with good things, rather than crappy things (like break ins and paypal induced admin crap).


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

:think: Bill, I am in concurrence with ***** and Charlie. No worries from this end. ;-)

- Do what you need to do-

|>|>


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## Majmvt (Jan 17, 2010)

Bill, I prefer credit card.


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## Tmu^ (Jan 10, 2012)

Well I'm new to the MK II, but please do what you need to do and what feels most right. You're running a quite small company and PayPal is just an option in payment. Money will always find a way.


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## Cleans Up (Jun 14, 2010)

Dump 'em. I still use the "service" but begrudgingly... and I'd be happier to hand over my info directly to you


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## AlphaWolf777 (Aug 11, 2012)

I'd be A OK without PayPal. The only thing I find it useful for is paying merchants who can't accept CC's directly, or for paying 3rd parties or accepting $ for myself. But if more small watch companies allowed for direct CC payments, it would actually be less painful of a process IMO.


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## d88 (Nov 22, 2010)

From the outset I have no issues with Bill's integrity or in how he does his business, however from an international buyer's point of view and someone who in the past has had credit card details 'swiped', 'cloned', whatever you want to call it (luckily my bank refunded any losses), I'd feel a little a little uncomfortable giving my details direct to any retailer now. The point with Bill's burglary also raises issues regarding IT security, in that how does Bill store our personal information and what would happen if a Thief stole a computer, or had access to his network where not just personal information but our credit/debit card information was also potentially available ?

The second point is in relation to bank/ Credit card charges where for me being an international customer these can actually cost more than using paypal. I appreciate for internal US customers using $, this probably wouldn't be an issue though.

I know Paypal isn't the perfect solution especially for retailers, however for now and until a better more secure way of transferring currencies overseas becomes available for (relatively) small amounts, for me it provides a more secure and easier way of doing business, therefore I hope Bill keeps the Paypal option in place.


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## Ames (Feb 2, 2008)

I can live without PayPal on your site. CC is fine.

You can automate PayPal purchases through your backend. We do it all the time for our customers. Website and accounting systems. This is what you should fix. Dropping PayPal isn't smart.

Yes PayPals backend and reporting aren't very good.


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## White Tuna (Mar 31, 2011)

I dislike and distrust PayPal and cannot wait for one of the major credit card companies to crush them on their only useful playing field. I had to provide my SSN number even though I was using a valid credit card a long time ago and then link my bank account to PayPal to "confirm" my account ..... because I had passed $10,000 in purchases. It now tries to pass every transaction through my bank account instead of letting me select Credit Card as the default payment option. I know this makes more money for them but it limits my protections. If $10,000 in successful purchases with no problems is not a good confirmation than I am not sure what is. 

PayPal is not regulated like the major banks and has become increasingly "shady" to me. I despise the company.


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## Stepper (Jan 10, 2013)

Like most of the regulars here on this forum, I wouldn't have a problem giving my CC number to MKII. My only fear is that "new" customers who aren't as familiar may be reluctant.


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## Yao (Dec 12, 2006)

First of all thank you for taking the time to post such a well considered commentary on this question.



d88 said:


> From the outset I have no issues with Bill's integrity or in how he does his business, however from an international buyer's point of view and someone who in the past has had credit card details 'swiped', 'cloned', whatever you want to call it (luckily my bank refunded any losses), I'd feel a little a little uncomfortable giving my details direct to any retailer now. The point with Bill's burglary also raises issues regarding IT security, in that how does Bill store our personal information and what would happen if a Thief stole a computer, or had access to his network where not just personal information but our credit/debit card information was also potentially available ?


What I can tell you is that personally I have also had credit card details stolen but in all of the cases the card was cloned when I presented the physical card to someone either at a restaurant or other location. We have never had a loss of credit card information regarding our business though - even during the burglary. However given the burglary we are taking additional precautions now that the possibility is very real.

Regarding the burglary you certainly have valid points and the improvements we made to the shop over the last few weeks have addressed most of the security issues. The computers are all password protected and the files that contain customer information are also password protected. In addition, after the burglary all network passwords have been changed. Furthermore over the next few weeks we will be completing another round of improvements to our location to make credit card details inaccessible from our physical location. I hope that helps.



d88 said:


> The second point is in relation to bank/ Credit card charges where for me being an international customer these can actually cost more than using paypal. I appreciate for internal US customers using $, this probably wouldn't be an issue though.


This is an interesting detail that I was not aware of. Can you tell me what country you located in?



d88 said:


> I know Paypal isn't the perfect solution especially for retailers, however for now and until a better more secure way of transferring currencies overseas becomes available for (relatively) small amounts, for me it provides a more secure and easier way of doing business, therefore I hope Bill keeps the Paypal option in place.


Again thank you for your input!


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## Yao (Dec 12, 2006)

Ames said:


> I can live without PayPal on your site. CC is fine.
> 
> You can automate PayPal purchases through your backend. We do it all the time for our customers. Website and accounting systems. This is what you should fix. Dropping PayPal isn't smart.
> 
> Yes PayPals backend and reporting aren't very good.


If you have a QB compatible solution please let me know. It might be that our new web store that we are working on already has an automated PayPal processing option so perhaps the question is moot but either way it's still another account that I have to reconcile and monitor.

To be honest the CC back end and reporting aren't much better than PayPal but the possibility of having only to deal with half as many crap systems is quite attractive


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## BigHaole (Jun 1, 2011)

I've been using one-time-use credit card numbers for on-line purchases for years now, so I have no concerns using that with MKII. Frankly, I think it's more secure, since the numbers cannot be compromised (one time use!) and the details are all with my bank and are easy for me to trace.


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## scooby (Jun 3, 2009)

Aren't both methods used right now? I just ordered a Nassau from you Bill. When I signed up, I had to give my credit card info for payment. With my receipt, I also received a message requiring payment from PayPal within 10 days or my order would be cancelled. I thought maybe that was the preferred method and paid again via paypal, in order to preserve my order. After looking at my credit card statement, I realized I was charged twice. My card is the same one on file with PayPal. I sent an email last week looking for a refund on one of my payments. I have an official work order in for that too. I know your busy but i was hoping to get reinbursed before you leave for a month. My fault for not checking before I sent the PayPal. I should have done that. Long story short, it looks like credit card and PayPal worked for my order and if I were to do it again, I wouldn't have a preference one way or the other.


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## ThreeEmperor (Jan 21, 2012)

CC will be fine as well for me to purchase New MKii product.
Still looking forward to purchase a New MKii, those that I have purchased have been preowned.


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## Yao (Dec 12, 2006)

scooby said:


> Aren't both methods used right now? I just ordered a Nassau from you Bill. When I signed up, I had to give my credit card info for payment. With my receipt, I also received a message requiring payment from PayPal within 10 days or my order would be cancelled. I thought maybe that was the preferred method and paid again via paypal, in order to preserve my order. After looking at my credit card statement, I realized I was charged twice. My card is the same one on file with PayPal. I sent an email last week looking for a refund on one of my payments. I have an official work order in for that too. I know your busy but i was hoping to get reinbursed before you leave for a month. My fault for not checking before I sent the PayPal. I should have done that. Long story short, it looks like credit card and PayPal worked for my order and if I were to do it again, I wouldn't have a preference one way or the other.


Thanks for your input Scoob. I hope the new procedure I put into place will help with this kind of issue. In the future you can submit a ticket with the type "request refund" and I will be able to find it much faster. By some good luck you login is the same as your sign-on so I found your order and will take care of this momentarily.

Sorry for the delay.


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## scooby (Jun 3, 2009)

Yao said:


> Thanks for your input Scoob. I hope the new procedure I put into place will help with this kind of issue. In the future you can submit a ticket with the type "request refund" and I will be able to find it much faster. By some good luck you login is the same as your sign-on so I found your order and will take care of this momentarily.
> 
> Sorry for the delay.


Thanks for your prompt reply and taking care of that. This is my first MKII experience, but we're off to a great start! I can't wait for the Nassau|>


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

cpotters said:


> I'd burn up that arrangement quicker than gasoline-soaked birchbark kindling tossed into a bonfire.
> Cp


Charlie, you always crack me up!


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## Arthur (Feb 11, 2006)

Bill, I have no trouble at all using a credit card . I still use credit cards for online purchases, as there are a significant number of merchants that don't use PayPal.
The only advantage to PayPal is sending money to individuals, or small businesses that I really don't have a lot of information on.
Dispute resolution is easier to me with my CC company than with PayPal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Yao (Dec 12, 2006)

Arthur said:


> Bill, I have no trouble at all using a credit card . I still use credit cards for online purchases, as there are a significant number of merchants that don't use PayPal.
> The only advantage to PayPal is sending money to individuals, or small businesses that I really don't have a lot of information on.
> Dispute resolution is easier to me with my CC company than with PayPal.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Thanks. That's interesting.


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## White Tuna (Mar 31, 2011)




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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

:-d:-d

|>|>


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## willmtbike4food (Apr 3, 2013)

White Tuna said:


> I dislike and distrust PayPal and cannot wait for one of the major credit card companies to crush them on their only useful playing field. I had to provide my SSN number even though I was using a valid credit card a long time ago and then link my bank account to PayPal to "confirm" my account ..... because I had passed $10,000 in purchases. It now tries to pass every transaction through my bank account instead of letting me select Credit Card as the default payment option. I know this makes more money for them but it limits my protections. If $10,000 in successful purchases with no problems is not a good confirmation than I am not sure what is.
> 
> PayPal is not regulated like the major banks and has become increasingly "shady" to me. I despise the company.


I too am in this boat - PayPal makes it quite difficult for me to pay via CC, they instead withdraw it directly from my bank account. It's really not a big deal to me one way or another, but the advantages of CC far outweigh the potential heightened sense of security that some may experience by using PayPal. With my CC, I still get outstanding protection from the issuing bank/card company, so security isn't of much concern to me; if I were using a debit card instead, it'd be a different story. Further, being able to use my CC allows me to get 1% cash back on my purchase. Being that PayPal's default for my account is to automatically withdraw from my (high-interest - 3.25% APY) checking, I would need to transfer the purchase amount from another account so I can maximize my interest earnings (only get 3.25 if balance does not exceed $xx,xxx; if it does exceed, then only get 0.0001% for the month).

Being the GM of a small business I can appreciate the ease of various payment types, and have been exposed to the many hassles of others. We've chosen to not accept AmEx, due to the increased cost of accepting their payments - we have pretty tight margins in the first place, and to lose more of them to something we _can_ control is less-than-optimal. I'd look at PayPal in the same way we do AmEx - I don't know that we've lost any customers due to our not accepting it as a payment type, as just about everyone who uses AmEx has another card type they can pay with. Same with PayPal - as far as I'm aware, PayPal requires a bank account or CC to be somehow tied to a user's account, which should mean that presumably the potential customer would be able to come up with a series of 16 digits for payment that doesn't rely on PayPal.

Just my $0.02, and a long-winded first post.


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## White Tuna (Mar 31, 2011)

willmtbike4food good information and I appreciate you taking the time to post it.


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## NWP627 (Feb 24, 2008)

If it helps your business to drop PP then drop it, we will all survive.


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## lipjin (Jun 5, 2011)

AS an international customer, paypal is actually a pain in the ass to use I used to live in the US so I have an account but when I tried to set a new one up it's just a pain.


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## BigHaole (Jun 1, 2011)

If it would speed up the completion of my Project GMT watch, I could even be convinced to go back to money orders... ;-)


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## Arthur (Feb 11, 2006)

BigHaole said:


> If it would speed up the completion of my Project GMT watch, I could even be convinced to go back to money orders... ;-)


Or just show up at Bill's door with a wad of cash!!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## asingh1977 (Oct 13, 2012)

It is quite painful here too. I had to provide my taxation details (which they verify after 2 weeks), and for incoming (outgoing is fine); I have to bind a bank account. Though the debits can be routed to my CC. PP; has a first mover advantage, and the only thing competing with them is Google Checkout. Not so popular yet.


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## Rglaz (Feb 3, 2011)

I am new to this Forum and have stumbled upon it because I am on the hunt for a "NOT A ME TOO GMT". I have used paypal as a buyer and it only partially benefited me one time when someone sold me a BOGUS Omega. It turns out my credit card Company had MORE CLOUT (American Express) to sort it out. I also agree about comments made earlier regarding linking to a BANK account and if the funds were drawn from it instead of the credit card I'd be SOL. If PayPal is ever hacked it would be a disaster to those with linked accounts. I say take major credit cards. I am Partial to AMX only because they have been a "great company" to help when there is trouble. Too bad I missed the sign up for the GMT as the current offerings from the major watch companies leave me " un inspired "


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## AlphaWolf777 (Aug 11, 2012)

Rglaz said:


> I am new to this Forum and have stumbled upon it because I am on the hunt for a "NOT A ME TOO GMT". I have used paypal as a buyer and it only partially benefited me one time when someone sold me a BOGUS Omega. It turns out my credit card Company had MORE CLOUT (American Express) to sort it out. I also agree about comments made earlier regarding linking to a BANK account and if the funds were drawn from it instead of the credit card I'd be SOL. If PayPal is ever hacked it would be a disaster to those with linked accounts. I say take major credit cards. I am Partial to AMX only because they have been a "great company" to help when there is trouble. Too bad I missed the sign up for the GMT as the current offerings from the major watch companies leave me " un inspired "


Agreed, PayPal gets scary, fast when you have your bank account linked. They once forcibly sent a payment of $1,200 twice from my account because I didn't wait for a previous refund of the same amount. On the phone they were very unhelpful and unsympathetic. I only got "help" once I yelled to speak to a supervisor. The woman was very very indifferent to me about the situation and basically just told me to fly a kite. My bank put a stop payment on it for me, but I'm not sure if PayPal or my bank fixed the problem first. These days I only use my debit card on PayPal to avoid any potential problems and will never link a bank account to it ever again. Too bad you pretty much have to use them when doing 3rd party transactions. It'd be nice if there was an actual safer, more trustworthy way.


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## willmtbike4food (Apr 3, 2013)

AlphaWolf777 said:


> Agreed, PayPal gets scary, fast when you have your bank account linked.


Couldn't agree more - the horror stories I hear about it never seem to end...



AlphaWolf777 said:


> My bank put a stop payment on it for me, but I'm not sure if PayPal or my bank fixed the problem first. These days I only use my debit card on PayPal to avoid any potential problems and will never link a bank account to it ever again.


I'm no financial advisor, but the way I understand it is that a credit card should be safer to use than a debit card - typically credit cards have fraud/purchase protection, whereas debit cards that do seem to be much fewer and further between.

That being said, I'm much more concerned about using PayPal as a seller than I am as a buyer. They have lots of options to get your money refunded as the buyer if your transaction didn't go as it should have. As far as I'm aware, the burden of proof lies with the seller - while the buyer can simply make an accusation, the funds can be deducted from the seller, until the seller is capable of producing evidence proving the accusation wrong. Scary.


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## AlphaWolf777 (Aug 11, 2012)

willmtbike4food said:


> Couldn't agree more - the horror stories I hear about it never seem to end...
> 
> I'm no financial advisor, but the way I understand it is that a credit card should be safer to use than a debit card - typically credit cards have fraud/purchase protection, whereas debit cards that do seem to be much fewer and further between.
> 
> That being said, I'm much more concerned about using PayPal as a seller than I am as a buyer. They have lots of options to get your money refunded as the buyer if your transaction didn't go as it should have. As far as I'm aware, the burden of proof lies with the seller - while the buyer can simply make an accusation, the funds can be deducted from the seller, until the seller is capable of producing evidence proving the accusation wrong. Scary.


Yeah, I wish I could boycott PayPal, but unfortunately it's the only way I'd feel 100% confident BUYING from 3rd parties. I wouldn't do money orders or direct bank wires. I would never be spending enough for that to be required anyway. However, as a seller, I am 100% done with PayPal since I don't sell my watches any more. b-)

The reason I use a debit card is just because I don't have a limit on it like my CC. And I don't like using CCs.


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

Bill, all, are you sure you want to stop using PayPal?








PayPal accidentally credits man $92 quadrillion - CNN.com

Rich


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## Chromejob (Jun 18, 2010)

I couldnt give a rat's arse about Paypal. I have one or two CCs that give me significant rewards on purchases. 

// Tapatalk HD for Android - Nexus 7 //


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## cht (Dec 18, 2012)

by use credit card instead? what if haven't got a credit card?


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## White Tuna (Mar 31, 2011)

cht said:


> by use credit card instead? what if haven't got a credit card?


I am not sure but maybe a pre-paid card would work?


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

cht said:


> by use credit card instead? what if haven't got a credit card?


are you underage or how are you able to live without having a single debit or credit card?


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## bbckfh (Oct 23, 2014)

As seems to be common, I'm plenty happy to use a CC. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I'd prefer to avoid PayPal.


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## bigchelis (Apr 1, 2014)

no more semi-safe online splurging


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## brewil (Jan 31, 2016)

New to MKII but have been admiring your work since I started my watch obsession, which is recent. 
I'd happily pay with a c/c. I ordered a Maratac strap which is now missing thanks to Paypals global shipping programme. 
Seems you have the go ahead!


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## Mr.Argyle (Oct 24, 2014)

I agree, Paypal has always helped me and been very professional in any issue I have ever had...


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## ca_ng (Nov 25, 2014)

No PayPal is just ok. Personally I much prefer PayPal or Amazon for all online purchases, and tend to avoid passing payment info for all online purchases from small companies. They've been good at solving any issues that may arise. I'm far from a security expert and am just sharing my experience. And I'll admit that last night's impulse Hawkinge purchase would not have happened if I had to get out of bed to retrieve my wallet! 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## Chromejob (Jun 18, 2010)

LastPass FTW.  No getting out of anything to go find the card, its info is stored in an encrypted vault for lookup.


\\ Tapatalk for iOS //


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