# Hermle Clocks



## ianwurn

Hi there,

Does anyone have reviews and experience on Hermle clocks to share ? Tempted to get one but would love to hear from existing owners.

Thanks in advance !


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## StufflerMike

Own a Hermle wall clock with open balance since 1998, working flawlessly with two services.


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## John MS

Which model are you looking at.


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## miltsbrad

I'm. Also on the fence about getting a vintage mantel clock


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## 124Spider

I have two very fine Hermle clocks, which I enjoy very much. I bought both, new, in 2008.

My only caveat about buying a modern clock is that many don't have solid brass parts, but only brass-plated parts. If the clock has this "feature," and it's old, the moving parts may not be fixable, but must be replaced.

Hermle makes some very fine clocks, and some very ordinary clocks. Your question cannot be answered without more information.

Mark


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## horocomplicated

Well, I think I just made a big mistake. I have been collecting clocks and watches for over 40 years so I know about them. I just wanted to see what you guy's thought about this. I was looking at a Seth Thomas Tambour. The case,bezel, dial in pretty poor condition but it had an overhauled 113 movement. I was talked into a much less expensive Howard Miller from the late 70's that has a new Hermle 1050-20 movement. The case is considerably nicer than the Seth Thomas and in near perfect condition. It is their top of the line mantel clock. It retails between $1300 and $1,800 currently. It now has a much poorer movement than the Hermle in the current model. It is the kieninger SEW01 with the plastic platform balance. At least the Hermle is a much better movement. I pretty much paid the price of the movement and installation for this. The Seth Thomas was $1,600 in trash condition but it had the rebuilt 113.. However it was on it's third rebuild. Given that the Howard Miller was a much better deal and one fine looking clock. The Seth Thomas never cost what the Howard miller did of course but you are comparing 1900's to 1970's and now 2016. The Howard Miler did not cost that in the 70's but it was better built back then. I really wanted to have the 113 but in that condition for that money did not make sense to me. From a collectors standpoint the 113 is obviously much better. Although it can have costly issues. Especially on it's Third rebuild. Of course Howard Miller will probably never be worth much and Seth Thomas can sell for multiple thousands but I thought this one was way over priced for what it was. I figured The Howard Miller was worth picking up for a few bills and The Hermle movement is the best current production movement. So that answers the OP's question at least. They also make the $12,000 tellurium. I know I am discussing Howard Miller but my interest is in the movement which is Hermle but it is no 113. the Hermle also sounds much better. You can google "Howard Miller triple chime" for sound bites. Only buy Hermle now though as Miller's movements are now junk.

Seth Thomas. Particular one was in poor condition.
View attachment 9698794


Sorry, put image twice.
Howard Miller Thomas Tompian.
2
View attachment 9698778
View attachment 9698778


Edit I realized he put larger brass rods in there so it sounds very good. The stock is not as good as a 113 but this is probably equal or better but different altogether. I just wish I had that 113 but I did not want one in junk condition for $1,600. I figure this was worth what I paid and it is nice no doubt. It is just amodern clock that really has no interest to me even though it is very nice.

did i make the right choice in your guy's opinion?


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## John MS

Your picture links don't work for me. To be honest I'm not sure what the problem and question is. Hopefully you didn't pay $1,600 for a used 1970's clock.


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## horocomplicated

Seth Thomas. The one in question was in very poor condition.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/111242-seth-thomas-75-grand-westminster-chime

Howard miller. The one in question is in near mint condition. Certainly looks nicer but no collectors value.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Howard-Mill...116396?hash=item2ec38a4cec:g:lCAAAOSwIzNXPP~L

No a paid a few hundred with a new movement. I wanted a Seth Thomas that was all beat up on it's third overhaul for $1,600. I could not justify that. The price or it's condition. I just wish I had been able to pick up another 113. The Howard miller is their top of the line clock and very fancy. It is in near mint condition. New it is $1,700+. It is just not of interest from a collectors standpoint like the ST is. However That was just a rip off and the HM happened to be a good deal so i picked it up. I wish I had been able to get another 113 here but I would only have paid like $450 for that not $1,600. for a pristine one I might pay $1,000. I am sorry the links don't work. I don't know why. Just google Howard Miller Thomas Tompian and the Seth Thomas is a run of the mill basic Tambour with a 113 movement. Obviously I took the better deal. Just unfortunate that the guy was not reasonable about what the ST with the 113 was worth. The HM is not bad for a few hundred considering it is the same clock that is currently almost 2 grand and has a brand new Hermle movement with better rods installed. Easily worth what I paid. Just not collectable like the ST is but the price was Ludicrous. I guess I am just saying I am disappointed I could not pick up the ST for a reasonable price. ST's can be thousands but not this one. The HM is nice for what it is. I am not ashamed of it or anything. It is just not a collectors item which is where my focus is. It was not actually a question I guess just voicing my disappointment that I could not pick up the ST. Anything with the 113 is very collectable and can be thousands but this was not reasonable. I guess I could just have taken nothing and kind of regret that I did not. The Hm is alright though. Just not sure where it's place is in my collection with much more sought after clocks. Probably go in a seldom used room. Well, I just blew a few hundred I guess even though it was worth that and the St was not worth what he wanted.

Heh, I am just thinking out loud. Sorry.


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## John MS

Wow...$1,600 for a S.T. tambour? Too rich for my taste. I've seen nice S.T. Sonora Chimes models go for a few hundred at a brick and mortar auction. The triple train rod chime models seem to go for $150 or so. And standard 2 train tambours for $50 - $75. 

Yeah, I agree on the Miller. Nice clock but I enjoy the vintage models more. I find a Herschede Tambour triple train from the early 1920's to be very attractive.


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## 124Spider

John MS said:


> Wow...$1,600 for a S.T. tambour? Too rich for my taste. I've seen nice S.T. Sonora Chimes models go for a few hundred at a brick and mortar auction. The triple train rod chime models seem to go for $150 or so. And standard 2 train tambours for $50 - $75.
> 
> Yeah, I agree on the Miller. Nice clock but I enjoy the vintage models more. I find a Herschede Tambour triple train from the early 1920's to be very attractive.


Agreed. My first ST was a two-train tambour I bought at a NAWCC mart, as a sacrifice clock to learn clock-fixing. It didn't run, but it clearly wasn't in horrible condition. I probably overpaid, at $60, but it served its purpose and has been ticking and striking for many years in our house. I paid a bit more ($148) fora working ST Sonora tambour (chimes on bars, not bells). $1600 for any ST tambour seems unusual to me.


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## John MS

A $60 clock is a great one to learn on. Rehab the movement, clean up the case and you have a nice antique clock. My learner clock was a Gilbert cottage from the 1880's. I learned repair with it at a class on clock repair. What looked like a black painted case turned out to be nice rosewood veneer and a gilt border around the door. Patient polishing with black wax and rottenstone retained the original finish while removing decades of gunk.


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## horocomplicated

I think the current list price of that clock is $2,300! It goes for $1,250 to $1,700 new. It is their second most expensive mantle not a Tambour. The case work is very fine. A old used one goes for $500+ with the original movement. I do not know what it cost along the years.

Product: 612-436 Thomas Tompion


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## 124Spider

horocomplicated said:


> I think the current list price of that clock is $2,300! It goes for $1,250 to $1,700 new. It is their second most expensive mantle not a Tambour. The case work is very fine. A old used one goes for $500+ with the original movement. I do not know what it cost along the years.
> 
> Product: 612-436 Thomas Tompion


I bought one new in 1985 for $300; I still have the receipt. When my second child got her first apartment, she asked for it for a house-warming gift, and I was happy to give it to her. It's still in excellent condition, and sounds beautiful.


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## horocomplicated

They have obviously raised the price a lot then. I guess used ones have appreciated too.


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## 124Spider

I liked that clock for a long time, but there are a lot of clocks, new and antique, that I'd rather have for the kind of money you're talking about. The movement is a base, inexpensive German movement; it works fine, and is reasonably robust, but it just gets tossed when it quits working, to be replaced by a new movement.


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## horocomplicated

You know, that's exactly why I was unhappy. Most people toss that movement. There is actually no reason to. My guy said he can certainly rebuild that but it is the price of a neew movement anyways. There was a period where Hermle used soft bushings that could not be reamed. This is currently not the case. This movement I was assured can be rebushed everywhere.

Of course I like other clocks better. There are plenty nice new clocks too. Just see the front page of this site! I mean you can buy a Casio or a Patek. I would say the ST falls closer to the Casio nonetheless but the cabinet is nice. I guess kind of like a Citizen Campanola but not a Grand Seiko. If you follow me.


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## 124Spider

If we're talking about the same clock, it's not a Seth Thomas, but a Howard Miller. 

In the 30 years I owned that clock, I tossed the movement at least once. Why not? It's a mass-produced movement, not made to last the long term. The pivots are tiny, and probably only plated, not solid brass. There's nothing special about the movement, so why the emotion about people tossing the movement? I agree that tossing an old, irreplaceable movement, to replace it with a quartz innards, is not something I would like to see, but modern, mass-produced clocks have movements designed to be tossed.

And, yes, most Howard Miller clocks are at the Casio end of the market (although they do sell some higher-end clocks under that brand name, and many under other brand names like Kieninger).

Mark


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## horocomplicated

Yes, it is a Howard Miler. Sorry if I said Seth Thomas. The original musing of mine was I was choosing between a trashed Sonora for way too much money or this Great condition Howard Miller. Of course I could have bought nothing. In the particular situation I felt obligated to make a purchase. I still think I made the better choice. Had it been a mint Sonora for a fair price that is a no brainer. 

I just don't like to throw things away. The current Hermle I have(2015) the pivots are decent size and the bushings are solid brass. I am told these last 30-40 years before overhaul/replacement. They did improve. Where almost everyone else went out of business. Even in the late stages Seth Thomas used Hermle simply to save money. Back then they were not nearly the quality of a 100 year old Seth Thomas movement. Stil aren't but have gotten much better. At some point they did not have solid bras and because of that were not rebuildable. The current movement is about $305 plus $100 for removal and installation. I can get it rebuilt for $325. So a little cheaper and again I hate to throw things away. I am not some kind of hoarder though. I obviously throw out the trash  AS I said this clock and one other current one are akin to a Campanola but no Grand Seiko. It is priced like the high end citizen and not the Seiko to be fair. You are correct they do have a few decent clocks and this is one of them. I knew enough in a jam not to purchase the trashed Sonora for too much and take this. It is okay for a newer clock. I was lucky that it was old enough to have the Haller rods but the new better Hermle movement. I mean it is nothing special but i did not pay $1,700 as many people have. Who got the Kieninger with the plastic platform escapement that lasts buy Five years. On that note though Kkieninger makes some fine, expensive new clocks.

Well, I will give this as a gift anyhow. Feeling compelled in this situation that I must buy something I am okay that I bought this. This was a junk shop.

Now, for good stuff I can buy a Sonora or 113 with a good case but bad movement pretty cheap. I can have either movement rebuilt for under $500. So for well under $1,000 I get some nice clocks. Sometimes. I mainly like Atmos and am very adept at rebuilding them myself. I also do not think the new Atmos is a good deal either but it is a fine timepiece. Just too expensive. To me at least. I have no problem to buy a new AP,Patek,IWC Etc. watch though. Those seem to be worth it to me. I guess it is all just personal feelings.

The Howard Miller is alright as I am going to give it away. When I was talking about Seth Thomas I had pictured the Sonora Tambour with rods, not bells. The case was trashed and the Gentleman was way out of line what it was worth. I would give him $300 for that but he would not even entertain that. I know what everything is worth. The key is this was trashed. The HM was like new with no hours on a new movement with the better rods of the older model.

Just so you know, if you have a newer Hermle in there it can be rebuilt. However $75 more you can have a new one and much less wait. Also Hermle's like the tellurium are very fine clocks. Also rebuildable but very high skill level. You do not throw away a $12,000 clock though. You had to toss the old Hermle. I would just rather rebuild the new improved one. Just my personal feeling. If you would rather toss it that is your prerogative. Obviously vintage clocks i have rebuilt. I am certainly not one to throw in a quarts. Many people do when faced with the bill. Not everyone is a collector but goes in with one clock that does not run.

Just my feelings. You are completely entitled to yours.

Edit: i realized I guess some people want new clocks. Comitti makes a similar clock for $6,000USD. Sinclair Harding for $15,000USD. Although the latter you cannot really compare as it has a triple Fusee. The Comitti however has the junk Kieninger with the plastic Escapement. To each their own I guess. I would rather own a 200 year old clock personally. New clock prices are absurd as they will instantly lose value. Although in 200 years they, also will be vintage clocks. If not built as well as the ones that proceeded them.

Correction: A new Sinclair Harding is $40,000 but again it is not exactly comparable although the case is somewhat.


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## onewatchnut

horocomplicated said:


> Just so you know, if you have a newer Hermle in there it can be rebuilt. However $75 more you can have a new one and much less wait.


I've lost count of the number of Hermle movements I have replaced in my shop. They are not worth repairing. The plates are so thin it is a waste of time to bush them. My customers come out ahead and so do I. My labor is better spent working on quality movements that can be restored.


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## Chorisia

In UK horological repairers will only replace with new movements, Kieninger two weight vienna movements late 20c I have had all needed drum pinions bushing as badly worn who know why they design a movement needing such heavy 3k weights?


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## John MS

Chorisia said:


> In UK horological repairers will only replace with new movements, Kieninger two weight vienna movements late 20c I have had all needed drum pinions bushing as badly worn who know why they design a movement needing such heavy 3k weights?


Those movements probably could have been repaired. However, the cost to disassemble, clean and repair likely exceeded the cost to replace the movement. It ends up being an economic decision because of the time needed to perform a full repair. If those movements had been serviced and lubricated regularly they could have had a longer life. Unfortunately most mechanical clocks are run until performance lags from poor lubrication and wear.


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## Chorisia

John MS said:


> Those movements probably could have been repaired. However, the cost to disassemble, clean and repair likely exceeded the cost to replace the movement. It ends up being an economic decision because of the time needed to perform a full repair. If those movements had been serviced and lubricated regularly they could have had a longer life. Unfortunately most mechanical clocks are run until performance lags from poor lubrication and wear.


I add graphite to clock oil for the reason that most buyers do not lubricate.


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## Mr.Regulator

.


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## allkir669

I've purchased MANY "broken" howard miiler / seth thomas whatever german movement clocks on the internet for pennies on the dollar. most were from the 70s, 80s and 90s. I was able to get all of them running with just a little naptha and clock oil. it's funny becuause I can get the most beautiful clock for practically nothing becuase some clock repair guy quoted hundreds to fix. that has never been the case and i end up with some awesome timepieces. 

I think i bought a seth thomas tambour for $15 that had 4 issues with it. after a few minutes (70 or 80) of tinkering, it's running like a champ - and been running for years. its an awesome hobby. too bad there are so many dishonest clock makers out there or maybe just lazy clock owners.


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## Mr.Regulator

I generally walk away from any clock with a Hermle movement.

✦ In the pre-1970's they made a good pendulum movement that could be repaired and lasted a goodly time.These are typically marked with the 3 initials "FSH" and no date code.

✦ Then in the 1970's they started cutting corners. They introduced balance wheel type escapements in an effort to get more accuracy. They also plated arbors with zinc. The plating failed after 15 years or so, and the flecks of zinc would jam the pivots. These clocks are identified by the inclusion of the date code, but may not include the Hermle name at all. Hermle freely admits these movements have a life expectancy of 25 years at which point they expect them to be replaced.

Since 99% of the clocks you'll find with a Hermle movement are by Seth Thomas or Howard Miller, and these brands are almost always copying a classic American clock style, you'll be light years ahead to simply look for the original 1920's Seth Thomas (or whatever) clock they copied. Those older clocks were typically using a VERY robust #89 movement that was built to last 200 years or more. And the cases will be much more substantial as well. You'll simply have a LOT more clock to work with.

Hope this helps.


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