# Seiko 9F61 9F62 9F82 9F83. What are the differences?



## TCXO

What are the differences between Seiko 9F61, 9F62, 9F82, and 9F83 calibers? (accuracy, complications, engineering features and other refinements, production years, etc...)

Which of these, other than 9F61, have been used in Grand Seiko Quartz watches?

Thank you for any assistance.


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## ppaulusz

As far as I know the accuracy is rated ±10 seconds per year across the 9F range (the only exception is a limited edition re-issue of the Seiko Astron in the year 2000 that used a special version of the 9F movement that was rated to ±5 seconds per year).


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## ppaulusz

TCXO said:


> What are the differences between Seiko 9F61, 9F62, 9F82, and 9F83 calibers? (accuracy, complications, engineering features and other refinements, production years, etc...)
> 
> Which of these, other than 9F61, have been used in Grand Seiko Quartz watches?...


The 9F61 movement has no calendar function, the 9F62 has calendar function (but not perpetual) and both movements have been used in Grand Seiko Quartz watches. The 9F83 also has been used in Grand Seiko Quartz watches and it offers a calendar that shows date and name of the day as well. The 9F82 has a calendar (date only) and it too has been used in GS Quartz watches.


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## Bruce Reding

Good info, George! May be worth putting in the references thread. How'd you find it?


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## ppaulusz

Bruce Reding said:


> Good info, George! May be worth putting in the references thread. How'd you find it?


Well, I did the "monkey-business": checked my Japanese Seiko brochure (2005) and the internet for pictures and movement IDs. 
I still don't know what the difference is between between 9F62 and 9F82 (both have date without day of the week display).
Yes, it is a good idea to update the _reference thread _with these info about the Seiko 9F movements_. _Also the Citizen E510 movement should be given a word or two along with the The Exceed (EBJ74-2101) and the discontinued high-accuracy Attesa Eco-Drive Perpetual Calendar series: 
ATH53-2541 (blue dial)
ATH53-2542 (white dial)
ATH53-2543 (champagne dial)
The Citizen E410 movement is already mentioned in the _reference thread so _you might want to combine that info with the E510 as the movements are almost identical but for their physical size (E510 men's version, E410 ladies' version).


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## Time

ppaulusz said:


> Well, I did the "monkey-business": checked my Japanese Seiko brochure (2005) and the internet for pictures and movement IDs.
> I still don't know what the difference is between between 9F62 and 9F82 (both have date without day of the week display).
> Yes, it is a good idea to update the _reference thread _with these info about the Seiko 9F movements_. _Also the Citizen E510 movement should be given a word or two along with the The Exceed (EBJ74-2101) and the discontinued high-accuracy Attesa Eco-Drive Perpetual Calendar series:
> ATH53-2541 (blue dial)
> ATH53-2542 (white dial)
> ATH53-2543 (champagne dial)
> The Citizen E410 movement is already mentioned in the _reference thread so _you might want to combine that info with the E510 as the movements are almost identical but for their physical size (E510 men's version, E410 ladies' version).


Hi guys,
the 9F82 movement does not exist. It must be a typing error. I have seen that in the Tanaka web site. If you seen it there, I think that is what happened. There is only the 9F61 no date, 9F62 with date, and 9F83 with day/date. These are all men watches. The women watches have the 4Jxx movements that you see in the women watches in the Dolce/Exceline line and Credor line. Also in the women watches for the Grand Seiko line version of 8Jxx for men.


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## ppaulusz

Time said:


> Hi guys,
> the 9F82 movement does not exist. It must be a typing error...


No, it's not a typing error. The 9F82 movement does very much exist as you can see it in the official Seiko 9F (9F61, 9F62, 9F82, 9F83) instruction manual:
http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/resource/pdf/manual/J-9F.pdf
http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/support/download/


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## JRP

Hi,

I have some information on the 8*J*56 calibre used in some GS.

The difference between the 9F and the 8J is that the 8j has a 5 year battery life instead of 3years for the 9F.

Also- the 8J56 HAS a time zone change function- ie independently adjustable hour hand.

The model I saw in Japan was water resistant to 200 meters and had a screw down crown.

Hope this info helps

regards,
JRP


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## Bruce Reding

JRP said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have some information on the 8*J*56 calibre used in some GS.
> 
> The difference between the 9F and the 8J is that the 8j has a 5 year battery life instead of 3years for the 9F.
> 
> Also- the 8J56 HAS a time zone change function- ie independently adjustable hour hand.
> 
> The model I saw in Japan was water resistant to 200 meters and had a screw down crown.
> 
> Hope this info helps
> 
> regards,
> JRP


Interesting. So, while the 8J is not as accurate, it has more utility. From a practical point of view, a moveable hour hand is more important, especially if one travels a lot.


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## dwjquest

This very point is what keeps me from wearing my GS with 9F movement. Why have the high accuracy if you have to reset the watch every time you cross a time zone? The Citizen Chronomaster has the Seiko 9F beat on this point.

I just checked and the Seiko website claims a +-10 sec/yr accuracy for the 8J56 movement.


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## JRP

Sorry,

I missed this info- as per the previous reply, 8J56 is also accurate to +- 10 sec per year.

Based on this, I would choose the 8J over the 9F.

The main problem is that there is info available on how good the 9F is in the it has the anti baclash system, 50 year service interval etc. HOWEVER- there is no info for the 8J.

regards,
JRP


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## Time

Hi Guys,
I have two watches with the 8j56 movements. I have no complains. I might sell one since I have two. It has all the utilities stated above. Also, it has lume which is useful. It also weights less and thinner than the 9F 200m. It just doesn't have the fifty year interval and instant date change. The date changes gradually. However, I like it because of everything else it has. It just out weights the 9FXX for me. Unless somebody wants the 8J for a sport watch and the 9F for a dress watch. However, the 8J55 with no date will fit the bill. It is a dress watch.


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## artec

Time said:


> Hi Guys,
> I have two watches with the 8j56 movements. I have no complains. I might sell one since I have two. It has all the utilities stated above. Also, it has lume which is useful. It also weights less and thinner than the 9F 200m. It just doesn't have the fifty year interval and instant date change. The date changes gradually. However, I like it because of everything else it has. It just out weights the 9FXX for me. Unless somebody wants the 8J for a sport watch and the 9F for a dress watch. However, the 8J55 with no date will fit the bill. It is a dress watch.


What watches are these movements in? Do you have photos? A pm or an e-mail would be welcome: [email protected]


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## douro20

Since these are fully-encased movements (quite unusual for even high-end quartz movements), are the holes on the top plate for a testing rig?


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## Citizen H

Hi there,

I am not sure what other movements manufacturers quote but Seiko also makes a point of stating that the 9F quartz movements use no plastic as structural or active parts of the movement as it has been designed to be a "watch that will last a life-time". 

There are only 3 points in the movement that are made of plastic and these act only as insulators. I think it is an interesting turn around from the 1970's when plastic was seen as an expensive new material to be featured!

The 9F82 was found in the SBGV001 - I believe it was date only and accurate to +-10sec per year. 

Cheers,

Citizen H


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## Eeeb

Citizen H said:


> I am not sure what other movements manufacturers quote but Seiko also makes a point of stating that the 9F quartz movements use no plastic as structural or active parts of the movement as it has been designed to be a "watch that will last a life-time".
> 
> There are only 3 points in the movement that are made of plastic and these act only as insulators. I think it is an interesting turn around from the 1970's when plastic was seen as an expensive new material to be featured!
> ...


My experience with keeping old automobiles running shows that plastic, while a wonderful material and often the material of choice for some parts, tends to get brittle with age. Even nylon gets harder and more brittle. If you have an old plastic part and it is mechanically stressed, it WILL need replacing. But old plastic that is not stressed (and not exposed to heat and sunlight) usually only needs replacement when abused.

Eta's Normaline series often uses plastic extensively, to the point of using it for baseplates and bridges. Some pieces are untrasonically welded together by robot armies -- never to be rendered asunder. But Eta makes no pretensions these are repairable... they are replaceable. At what they cost nothing else makes sense.

The Eta Autoquartz line, on the other hand, has no plastic used in any mechanical capacity AFAIK. They were designed to be repaired.

The Seiko 9F movements are unique in one respect - no one else has ever claimed no expected maintenance over 50 years... Time will tell :think:

(It was the 9F that made that claim, wasn't it?? :-s )


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## M4tt

It was indeed.

However, I have tried very very hard to chase down the source of the claim and I really cannot find any example of Seiko themselves saying it. It just seems to have evolved within the internet watch community. I sometimes wonder if it is an urban myth!

Yes, this is a challenge to anyone to find hard documentary evidence for this claim ... because I cannot!

I really hope that it isn't an urban myth.

Oh, and my new Grand Seiko has quite clearly begun gaining time - it's not a second yet but it is going that way. Bugger.


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## Citizen H

I am confident that the 50 year claim is a statement and not to be considered an explicit guarantee.

With my limited understanding of Japanese I have read much of the information available in the various GS catalogues and on the Japanese Seiko website.

According to the Seiko literature; as one of the 5 key features of the 9F series, the "Super Shield Cabin" seals and protects the assembly comprising the rotor and other moving parts against contamination and evaporation of lubricants. It is _estimated_ that this will be effective for 50 years.

I imagine that they are unable to guarantee the 50 year reliability of the "Super Shield Cabin" given that a) the feature has not been demonstrated to last that long and b) quartz watches have not been able to be demonstrated to operate in a real world situation for that long either...

However I think it would also be safe to assume that the Sekio watchmakers and the R&D team are very confident that the pride of Seiko's quartz technology watch is going to easily operate for that long given the potential risk if they are proven wrong. The Japanese hold their GS's in very high regard and expect nothingless than "world's best practice".

In my experience, the mid to high level Seiko's are nothing short of remarkable; I regularly (read atleast 2 days a week) wear my father's automatic Seiko Lordmatic (yes, he is still alive, but obsessed with Eco-drive and Kintetics he gave to me who loved the look of it from when I was a child). That watch was built in April 1971 and has only been serviced once. The service wasn't because anything was wrong but I felt that at 30 years of age it deserved some pampering... It remains 28 seconds fast per month with an incredible stability rate of +/-3 seconds. I could get it regulated but I like to have something to fiddle with...

Cheers,

Citizen H


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## M4tt

I'm really pleased that you can confirm that the claim exists in Seiko's literature. Is it possible that you can give me the URL for that literature so I can be nosy? 

It would be difficult to have a precedent for the 50 year claim as quartz watches simply have not existed for that long! My worry would be less about lubrication and more about the electronics, especially the quartz tuning fork, stepper motor and thermistor. Hey, over that sort of time period the logic gates of the chip could even start to suffer significant erosion. Actually, that's probably nonsense - my old SE30 is still going strong and that is pushing a whole lot more power through.

Just to argue against myself, I do own a couple of early 70's quartz which are still going strong without a hint of maintenance. (unlike my Exceed :-()


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## Bruce Reding

M4tt said:


> Just to argue against myself, I do own a couple of early 70's quartz which are still going strong without a hint of maintenance. (unlike my Exceed :-()


My GP and my Electroquartz, both from '71, are working nicely as well. So is my OMC from '74-'75 ish.

On another topic, I had also begun to wonder whether that 50 year life statement was a myth. I had only ever seen it in the "Prometheus Bound" article, which, while being a great article for budding enthusiasts, is unfortunately riddled with errors.


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## Eeeb

M4tt said:


> ...
> It would be difficult to have a precedent for the 50 year claim as quartz watches simply have not existed for that long! My worry would be less about lubrication and more about the electronics, especially the quartz tuning fork, stepper motor and thermistor. Hey, over that sort of time period the logic gates of the chip could even start to suffer significant erosion. Actually, that's probably nonsense - my old SE30 is still going strong and that is pushing a whole lot more power through.
> 
> Just to argue against myself, I do own a couple of early 70's quartz which are still going strong without a hint of maintenance. (unlike my Exceed :-()


I'm not worried about the quartz tuning fork... it's a small encapsulated piece of stone and isn't likely to be broken by anything that doesn't obliterate the rest of the watch. The thermistor (if the watch may have one) is essentially artificial stone and has the same advantages.

The stepper motor is mechanical and it moves... but it is darn simple and should have a very long life... I would guess it's useful life is measured in decades and maybe centuries.

Absent strange power events and random hits by radiation, modern chips should work for centuries.

The weak point of quartz is the chemical vat of corrosive chemicals we encapsulate and stick inside their cases - batteries. Even kinetics and solar systems have batteries (though smaller and 'safer' ones). If they don't dissolve the innards of a quartz watch, it should last a Very Long Time.

All my old quartz (read around 40 years old) are still working... even the ones like the Beta 21 which are really vibrating tuning forks (and will have the shortest life). I expect to be able to will my GPs to my grandchildren in working condition... if I can still get the right batteries :-s ... so I don't think 50 years of expected operation is much of a stretch on a modern quartz.

But it is rare to hear a company that makes them say such things...


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## Citizen H

M4tt said:


> Is it possible that you can give me the URL for that literature so I can be nosy?
> quote]
> 
> Hi M4tt,
> 
> Feel free to have a look at the website the information is available in a couple of locations but the most "accessible" list about the features and benefits of the 9FXX movements is at:
> 
> http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/technology/quarts/highspec/9f.html
> 
> Following on to Eeeb's comments about the relative robustness of quartz movements to most aging problems. I believe Seiko prefer to use their own batteries in the watches and request that owners return the watches to Seiko for maintenance of the 9FXX movements. They might feel that their own battery technology is more reliable and will increase the probability of achieving the 50 year target.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Citizen H


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## Eeeb

Citizen H said:


> M4tt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> Following on to Eeeb's comments about the relative robustness of quartz movements to most aging problems. I believe Seiko prefer to use their own batteries in the watches and request that owners return the watches to Seiko for maintenance of the 9FXX movements. They might feel that their own battery technology is more reliable and will increase the probability of achieving the 50 year target...
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe. It was Seiko that first discovered the high failure rate on capacitors (which were used in early kinetics by both Eta and Seiko). They got Panasonic to build the 920 rechargeable battery specifically for watches.
> 
> I find it difficult to believe a watch company could build a better battery than a battery company... It seems like a major diversion of effort and first efforts usually don't work as well as subsequent ones. So if they did do their own batteries, history indicates it has a higher probability of failing faster.
Click to expand...


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## Citizen H

Eeeb,

I follow your logic regarding battery reliability. A little off topic; you got me thinking if maybe Panasonic was producing the Seiko branded batteries (including the new mercury free ones). 

I have attempted (on a very simple level) to uncover any evidence of corporate affiliation between Seiko and Panasonic. Japanese companies have historically had extensive - and very convoluted - corporate connections, which defined the boundaries of business.

While this may have little or no bearing on the performance of a product - in this case the batteries installed in Seiko movements, I am always curious about re-branded products.

Seiko is famous for producing all of their watch components (down to lubricants) in-house. I wonder how much of this is in-fact "out-sourced"...


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## petew

I have seen (besides the 2k Astron) at least one other limited production 9F based watch with a +-5 second rating too. I'm not sure what Seiko does to these 9F's to increase their accuracy, but it is interesting that they occasionally tweak these movements to higher standards.



ppaulusz said:


> As far as I know the accuracy is rated ±10 seconds per year across the 9F range (the only exception is a limited edition re-issue of the Seiko Astron in the year 2000 that used a special version of the 9F movement that was rated to ±5 seconds per year).


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## Bruce Reding

I'd be very interested in hearing about this other run! 

As to what they do, my money's on just more careful regulation, with possibly some component cherry picking. I doubt that they add in new design elements.


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## ppaulusz

Bruce Reding said:


> ...As to what they do, my money's on just more careful regulation, with possibly some component cherry picking. I doubt that they add in new design elements.


That would be my guess too.


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## webvan

bump for an old and interesting thread I found while researching 9Fxx movements...the 8Jxx seems even more interesting. These watches never seem to come up on eBay unfortunately, are there other sources people here have used to find one ?


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## kongar

webvan said:


> bump for an old and interesting thread I found while researching 9Fxx movements...the 8Jxx seems even more interesting. These watches never seem to come up on eBay unfortunately, are there other sources people here have used to find one ?


I sometimes find models from Seiko website and google them to find if available.

http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/p_search/result.php?shina=&caliber_no=9f

http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/p_search/result.php?shina=&caliber_no=8j (beware, some 8jxx movements are not HEQ)

Regards

Kongar


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## webvan

Thanks, will give that a shot !


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## dwjquest

webvan said:


> bump for an old and interesting thread I found while researching 9Fxx movements...the 8Jxx seems even more interesting. These watches never seem to come up on eBay unfortunately, are there other sources people here have used to find one ?


I have bought a couple from the Yahoo Japan auction.


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## webvan

Good to hear will try using the services of Japamart then, do you remember what search terms you had used ? Looks the best bet is to search by movement number.

The 8J56 may have an independently adjustable hour hand but nased on this picture of the movement I'm not sure it can be adjusted, a problem for us tweakers here, and the finish is far from the one of the 9Fxx









Credit : Ma4tt


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## dwjquest

It cannot be adjusted by the user. I have one 8J56 in Japan right now for service. Haven't gotten the cost estimate yet. They estimated 2 months for completion of the service.

I haven't had much luck with searches unless done through the auction service. I just scroll through all Grand Seiko watches in my spare time.


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## webvan

Did a bit of that today, hard to stop once you've started ;-) Thanks for confirming the 8J5x can't be user adjusted, I'll focus on the 9Fxx series!


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## webvan

Still working on the 9Fxx...prices seem to be all over the place, can anyone provide some ballpark numbers for the expected price of a 9Fxx these days ? Also there seem to be some GS that have a higher finish (Lion in the back with screw on crown) and some of a simple "GS" medallion with a clip-on case...confusing!


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## RPF

There are 2 series of 9F watches, SBGX and SBGT. Former is date only, latter day/date. SBGT are more expensive. The higher the model number, the more recent and expensive, due to successive price hikes. Same pattern of price increase with all luxury watches for the past decade, though the Swiss have outstripped the Japanese in relative terms.

The SBGX03x and below should retail below $3k new. Many used specimens can be found in the $1-2.5k bracket. The SBGT02x and below are priced similarly.

Brightz Ti models command a premium over the steel ones. 

And yes, not all GS are equal. Some are better finished, have complex casework etc. The newer models, on the whole, offer improvements that reflect the progressive refinement of the GS line. But there are a couple of past models that I will love to see them reissue.

The lower GS line (SBGF) and early SBGX/T models have the GS caseback. Some were snap-on.


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## webvan

Thanks, that's very helpful. As with all things you really have to spend time to figure out what's going on...I was also under the impression a 9Fxx could be regulated at will, but it seems its only within a range of 50spy with 8spm increments.

Odd they would use a snap-on back on such expensive watches, I've had bad experiences with that type of case in the past, dust coming in mostly and then they're a pain to remove without doing any damage. Can't be that more expensive to use a screw-in.


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## RPF

Well, there're very, very few screw-on crystals! And those are mostly diving behemoths. Most crystals are snap on. Many don't even have gaskets. 

A convenient feature we tend to overlook when pointing the finger at snap-backs. 

IMHO, it's not the particular case design that matters, but the implementation. Most importantly, components and fit/finish. 

You won't be disappointed with a GS case. That much I can say.

Snap back /= inferior. Aesthetically, they offer some advantages.


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## webvan

Wasn't sure where to post this, but here is an interesting teardown of a 9F62 -> [


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