# Timegraphers - Russian watch lift angles



## Lampoc (Dec 31, 2011)

I bought a jolly super Timegrapher from China as a birthday present for myself. It arrived this afternoon so I've been having a good play with it. One of the things that needs entering to properly check a watch is the lift angle. I've already found a comprehensive list of lift angles for Swiss movements plus I've also found out the the lift angle on Vostok 24** movements is 42 degrees. Does anybody here have a decent of list/link to other Russian movements lift angles so I can continue to play throughout the weekend?

Finally, it's amazing how much better my old CCCP Vostoks run compared to the newer stuff!

Random Timegrapher picture stolen from internet for anyone who hasn't seen one:


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## schnurrp (May 4, 2011)

Have a good weekend! 

Brand - Calibre / Lift angle
Chaika - 13xx / 46°
Luch --- 18xx / 46°
Luch --- 22xx / 49°
Poljot - 2612 / 49°
Poljot - 2609 / 51°
Poljot - 2614 / 51°
Poljot - 3017 / 48°
Poljot - 3133 / 51°
Raketa - 26xx / 42°
Slava -- 16xx / 49°
Slava -- 24xx / 49°
Slava -- 5498 / 47°
Vostok - 24xx / 42°
Zarja -- 15xx / 43.33°
Zarja -- 16xx / 44.3°
Zarja -- 20xx / 44.3°

Vostok 24xx = 42°
Raketa 26xx = 42°
Poljot 26xx = 49° to 51° (you can measure all of them at 50°, the error is so small as to be negligible)
Poljot 3133 = 51°
Slava 24xx = 49°


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## Lampoc (Dec 31, 2011)

6 Minutes later and I have a list!

Thank you very much schnurrp - you sir, are a star


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## schnurrp (May 4, 2011)

List supplied by forum member, Ocram. Here's a link to a long thread re: Timegrapher.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/i-finally-try-my-timegraphe-1000-a-699925-3.html#post5098366


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## Irodd (May 16, 2009)

I am looking for *Lift Angles for* *Molnija 3601/3602/3603*
Anybody can help?


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## voe (May 20, 2013)

Can anyone advise what is the lift angle for *Vostok 2809* movement?

Thanks.


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## rusofil (Nov 14, 2012)

Anyone?



voe said:


> Can anyone advise what is the lift angle for *Vostok 2809* movement?
> 
> Thanks.


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## gekos (Dec 24, 2012)

Vostok -- 28xx / 44°
Molnija - 36xx / 42°


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## gekos (Dec 24, 2012)

This is what I have:


Chaika - 13xx / 46°
Luch --- 18xx / 46°
Luch --- 22xx / 49°
Poljot - 2612 / 49°
Poljot - 2609 / 51°
Poljot - 2614 / 51°
Poljot - 3017 / 48°
Poljot - 3133 / 51°
Raketa - 26xx / 42°
Slava -- 16xx / 49°
Slava -- 24xx / 49°
Slava -- 5498 / 47°
Vostok - 24xx / 42°
Zarja -- 15xx / 43.33°
Zarja -- 16xx / 44.3°
Zarja -- 20xx / 44.3°
Chaika -- 13xx / 46°
Luch ---- 18xx / 46°
Luch ---- 22xx / 49°
Molnija - 36xx / 42° 
Pobeda -- K26 / 42°
Poljot -- 2612 / 49°
Poljot -- 2609 / 51°
Poljot -- 2614 / 51°
Poljot -- 3017 / 48°
Poljot -- 3133 / 51°
Raketa -- 26xx / 42°
Slava --- 16xx / 49°
Slava --- 24xx / 49°
Slava --- 5498 / 47°
Vostok -- 22xx / 46° 
Vostok -- 24xx / 42°
Vostok -- 28xx / 44° 
Zarja --- 15xx / 43.33°
Zarja --- 16xx / 44.3°
Zarja --- 20xx / 44.3°


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## oldfox (Apr 22, 2016)

I checked with iphone app timegrapher 
for 3601 - chk-6, - it's 42 degrees.
for 3602 - it's 52 degrees.


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## kev80e (Apr 19, 2014)

Looks like fun Lampoc , been tempted to get one myself and save all the adjust wait thing. Is it easy to use?


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## oldfox (Apr 22, 2016)

del
Sorry, thought this about iphone app.


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## Lampoc (Dec 31, 2011)

kev80e said:


> Looks like fun Lampoc , been tempted to get one myself and save all the adjust wait thing. Is it easy to use?


It's the easiest thing ever to use. Just pop the watch on the microphone, set the lift angle and adjust away. Of all the watchmaking gadgets I've bought, my timegrapher gets by far and away the most use. Buy one now!


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## kev80e (Apr 19, 2014)

Lampoc said:


> It's the easiest thing ever to use. Just pop the watch on the microphone, set the lift angle and adjust away. Of all the watchmaking gadgets I've bought, my timegrapher gets by far and away the most use. Buy one now!


Think I might have to get one


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## Robotmensch (Jul 25, 2017)

Anybody know the angle for a ZIM 2602?


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## antilucem (Aug 16, 2014)

kev80e said:


> Looks like fun Lampoc , been tempted to get one myself and save all the adjust wait thing. Is it easy to use?


Me too Kev......hahaha. I thought birthday as a good excuse. This is the world of WIS.

Here in SE Asia ali****ess has some keen prices. I am a bit tired of the 'trial and error' method.


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## TheRealAJS (Aug 31, 2018)

Another question, for Raketa, all beat at 18000 or were there 19300 versions (I searched but didn't find a post)? 

thanks all for reading and replying.


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## AlaskaJohnboy (Dec 25, 2016)

Ressurrecting an old thread to say-- THANKS!
Just got my timegrapher and testing out a few daily wear vintage Komandirskies this summer.

Thanks for compiling the lift angles. Now to see how they are running. (Most probably need a good service this winter when I get indoor time)


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

schnurrp said:


> Have a good weekend!
> 
> Brand - Calibre / Lift angle
> Chaika - 13xx / 46°
> ...


What is the lift angle for a 2809?


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## Rolexoman (Jun 7, 2020)

Lampoc said:


> It's the easiest thing ever to use. Just pop the watch on the microphone, set the lift angle and adjust away. Of all the watchmaking gadgets I've bought, my timegrapher gets by far and away the most use. Buy one now!


My BD is coming up and I put one on my good boy list.


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

?


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

TudorGMT20 said:


> What is the lift angle for a 2809?


44 degrees


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## Soltan (Jul 26, 2020)

Hello,
I'm looking for the lift angle for Poljot/Kirovskie 2409
I can't find anywhere this lift angle.

Thank you in advance for your help.


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

Soltan said:


> Hello,
> I'm looking for the lift angle for Poljot/Kirovskie 2409
> I can't find anywhere this lift angle.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your help.


49 degrees


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## Grant J (Sep 20, 2020)

Schnurrp posted these here in 2011.

I especially find these useful.
















Does anyone know the source publication?


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

So, I cannot read Russian. However, am I correct that the Botha (Vostok) Calibre 2809 has a lift angle of 46 degrees? I was told on another post in this site that someone answered with 44 degrees. Is this publication an official one? I have my Precision Class in for a full service, and need the correct lift angle. Please advise which one is it. Thank you very much!


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

schnurrp said:


> Have a good weekend!
> 
> Brand - Calibre / Lift angle
> Chaika - 13xx / 46°
> ...


Hi, I have my Vostok Precision Class 2809 in for a full service. Please tell me what the lift angle is for that movement, thank you very much!


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

Grant J said:


> Schnurrp posted these here in 2011.
> 
> I especially find these useful.
> View attachment 15593569
> ...


one of the soviet books on what repair. Do not recall which one. But I do not find this useful. Sorry. This table does not have the lift angles that I use. When do I need to know number of jewels from the book when it is printed on the movement and/or dial? Thickness of the movement? When do you need that? Balance frequently? Timegrapher tells me it. So this is a cool table but not that useful if you ask me.


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

TudorGMT20 said:


> So, I cannot read Russian. However, am I correct that the Botha (Vostok) Calibre 2809 has a lift angle of 46 degrees? I was told on another post in this site that someone answered with 44 degrees. Is this publication an official one? I have my Precision Class in for a full service, and need the correct lift angle. Please advise which one is it. Thank you very much!


The difference in reading between 44 and 46 is quite small. Feel free to put 45. As per my records it is 44.


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

Odessa200 said:


> one of the soviet books on what repair. Do not recall which one. But I do not find this useful. Sorry. This table does not have the lift angles that I use. When do I need to know number of jewels from the book when it is printed on the movement and/or dial? Thickness of the movement? When do you need that? Balance frequently? Timegrapher tells me it. So this is a cool table but not that useful if you ask me.


Ok, thanx, you gave me a lift angle of 44 degrees for the 2809. That is what I told my watch service person, as the watch is in for a full service. If you find something different, please advise, thank you.


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

TudorGMT20 said:


> Ok, thanx, you gave me a lift angle of 44 degrees for the 2809. That is what I told my watch service person, as the watch is in for a full service. If you find something different, please advise, thank you.


44 will be just fine.


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

Odessa200 said:


> The difference in reading between 44 and 46 is quite small. Feel free to put 45. As per my records it is 44.


Got it, thank you! The watch was dry, but even so, it was keeping -30 seconds per day even needing a service. Overall, we will have to see if there are any warped wheels in there. I am hopeful the watch can be saved and become an EDC, in good shape otherwise.


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

TudorGMT20 said:


> Got it, thank you! The watch was dry, but even so, it was keeping -30 seconds per day even needing a service. Overall, we will have to see if there are any warped wheels in there. I am hopeful the watch can be saved and become an EDC, in good shape otherwise.


 Show us some photos!


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

Odessa200 said:


> Show us some photos!





Odessa200 said:


> Show us some photos!





Odessa200 said:


> Show us some photos!





Odessa200 said:


> Show us some photos!


 It is an aftermarket dial, but it does have a authentic 2809 Precision class brass movement, and it does have the casing written in English. For $75.00, I can live with this.


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

Not much we can see on this image (too small). The brass movement? It is gilded. No?


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

Odessa200 said:


> Not much we can see on this image (too small). The brass movement? It is gilded. No?


Yes


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## TudorGMT20 (Jul 8, 2020)

Odessa200 said:


> Not much we can see on this image (too small). The brass movement? It is gilded. No?


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

Nice and correct movement. Congrats


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## Grant J (Sep 20, 2020)

TudorGMT20 said:


> So, I cannot read Russian. However, am I correct that the Botha (Vostok) Calibre 2809 has a lift angle of 46 degrees? I was told on another post in this site that someone answered with 44 degrees. Is this publication an official one? I have my Precision Class in for a full service, and need the correct lift angle. Please advise which one is it. Thank you very much!


Late to the party (again).
I can't read Russian either but have a few domestic dials with Восток written on them.








Fortunately numbers are the same in both languages, so it makes looking up the other stuff a bit easier.

I find it amazing that we have so much information on hand when we don't even need to read Russian - online translation does that for us, and while it isn't 100% great, it does a good enough job in most cases. Восток translates to East in English.
What a fortunate time we live in, to have access to such information at our finger tips. A bit of a search and we find data posted in 2011. Brilliant stuff.
Thank you so much to the members here for their time and knowledge.

How lucky we are to have 2 sources for the 2809 and they are both in the 40's.
2 degrees won't make a significant difference. Given that Precision's are now 40+ years old that will have more impact on accuracy than a couple of degrees lift angle.

Possibly 44 is for the old silver movements marked 1957-1960 and 46 for the later gold ones. I don't know, but that is part of the fascination of these pieces. You think you have the answers, then you find it leads to more questions! Love it.
I collect these more for their history than time keeping accuracy. If I wanted that I'd wear a quartz watch 

Life is too short to worry about minor lift angle variations.

The one you have is a later gold movement with the "B" logo. I believe this dates it from 1964 to mid 70's.
I am yet to acquire one of these as I only have the older type in gold.









Not sure if it is the angle of your photo or not, but it is possibly missing the pin near the balance wheel.








I have seen a lot with this part missing. It is not essential, but nice if you want a 100% complete movement.

Enjoy your watch for what it IS, enjoy the knowledge and history of what it WAS.


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## Grant J (Sep 20, 2020)

Now to get back to some timegrapher photos.

Reading at 44 degrees.








And at 46.








Not too bad. I'll have to live with that beat error.

Dial up is a different story 
44.









Again at 46.








However, given how old it is, I can forgive it


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

Grant J said:


> Now to get back to some timegrapher photos.
> 
> Reading at 44 degrees.
> View attachment 15595545
> ...


As mentioned before, 44 or 46 will produce same. Just a tiny difference in amplitude. That is all that the lift angle angle changes in timegrapher reading.

the watch seems to have a healthy movement. Just a bit of positional error that a skillful watchmaker can address but I would not insist on fixing it. Measure in all positions, average out and adjust to that value. I like to favor FaceUp position a bit more than others because the watch sits in this position the longest (overnight on the table). My goal when dealing with positional errors is to get as close to a 0 each day. If it runs a few secs slower during the day and gains them overnight then I am happy.

Forget about this beat error. It will not impact watch accuracy at all.


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## Grant J (Sep 20, 2020)

I just got this old Raketa 2609A today. Much anticipation for its arrival.
I liked the dial/case combo. The strap was a bonus.
I couldn't wait to get it on the Timegrapher this evening. Actually runs better than I expected.









Dial down isn't too bad either.









Another one from today's parcels (Christmas came early) - A Raketa 2609.I "Franken" that I purchased for the dial.
Surprisingly it runs... And not too badly either (the random dots off the line are from background noise).









No great shame dial down either.









I starting to become a fan of these old "Baltika" movements. Spending my "Vostok/Poljot money" on Raketa's!
Going to the dark side...


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## SinanjuStein (May 26, 2015)

Grant J said:


> I just got this old Raketa 2609A today. Much anticipation for its arrival.
> I liked the dial/case combo. The strap was a bonus.
> I couldn't wait to get it on the Timegrapher this evening. Actually runs better than I expected.
> 
> ...


One thing that's always surprised me is that a lot of so called _"serviced" _movements you buy on eBay that they are actually serviced to a pretty decent degree. And on the beat error aspect that's also something that's pretty standard for these Raketa movements to have them around the 1.0 secs a day region and still run well. I've had about 6~7 different 26XX caliber Raketa's and they were all the same though one did have a particularly good balance.


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

SinanjuStein said:


> One thing that's always surprised me is that a lot of so called _"serviced" _movements you buy on eBay that they are actually serviced to a pretty decent degree. And on the beat error aspect that's also something that's pretty standard for these Raketa movements to have them around the 1.0 secs a day region and still run well. I've had about 6~7 different 26XX caliber Raketa's and they were all the same though one did have a particularly good balance.


the trick is indestructible soviet calibers. Same as ak-47. Does not matter how much abuse it takes it works as designed... so I an mot surprised about vintage watches made before 90s...


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## SinanjuStein (May 26, 2015)

Odessa200 said:


> so I an mot surprised about vintage watches made before 90s...


_Chuckles in Swiss pin lever movements_










Though i know what you mean as the whole point of the Soviet movements (and design philosophy behind them) is to make them simple to manufacture in large quantity while also being very robust and properly jeweled in bushings that a lot of so called lower-end Swiss of Japanese movement do not have.

Sure, they aren't all chronometer grade pieces, but a working wristwatch is more useful than a pretty paperweight.


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## Grant J (Sep 20, 2020)

I was wondering how these better movements would be perceived by the masses if they were made in Switzerland (ie: same metals, same tooling, same staff just all in Switzerland instead of Russia).
Better to keep the secrets to ourselves 

It occurred to me last night that I have only posted "success stories" here. I should post a few of the worn Pobeda movements I have for comparison.


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

Grant J said:


> I was wondering how these better movements would be perceived by the masses if they were made in Switzerland (ie: same metals, same tooling, same staff just all in Switzerland instead of Russia).
> Better to keep the secrets to ourselves
> 
> It occurred to me last night that I have only posted "success stories" here. I should post a few of the worn Pobeda movements I have for comparison.


the price would be at least 10 times what we pay for Soviet/Russian. I personally find the Soviet movement remarkable. Here is todays story:
Got a Raketa from the early 90s. New. Never touched. Oil solid as rock: could barely move. Service it and it gives 0.3 sec/day so far on my hand. Note that a human average reaction (to push a button is 0.25 sec). So the watch keeps perfect time after my service. I never want to any watchmaker school. I do not use ultrasonic cleaning machine but just soak parts is gasoline. I use just 3 oils for all my movements. Do you think I would be able to achieve same results with an expensive Swiss? I highly doubt... never tried though cause my hands would shake knowing I can destroy a few thousands $ worth of movement....


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## Grant J (Sep 20, 2020)

I agree. Very much underrated and undervalued, but I'm not complaining. I can have a whole collection for less than a Swiss watchband.

I started out buying Russian cameras (back in the days of film) and lenses. These were also undervalued with some incredible optics to be had for a fraction the price of German optics.
Some lenses used lighter metals, that don't last as long as brass. Others had quality control issues, but if you bought 3 you could usually get one good one. 
I noticed some camera sellers also selling watches, so in 2016 I bought a 1953 Pobeda (that was listed as 1970) for US$12.99 plus postage to see what it was like. Loved it.
I have carried the "buy 3 to get a good one" mentality from camera gear with me to watches, which I think has helped. 
I never expect to received a "treasure", so am not disappointed. However when one arrives and works better than I expect, I take it as a treat.


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## AlaskaJohnboy (Dec 25, 2016)

Grant J said:


> I just got this old Raketa 2609A today. Much anticipation for its arrival.
> I liked the dial/case combo. The strap was a bonus.
> I couldn't wait to get it on the Timegrapher this evening. Actually runs better than I expected.
> View attachment 15613259
> ...


I did a 2609.HA (High Accuracy) from back in the 80's and was astnonished at the accuracy. After servicing and adjusting it was from +8 to -5 sec per day. I am really impressed with the 2609. Good find and good job!


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

AlaskaJohnboy said:


> I did a 2609.HA (High Accuracy) from back in the 80's and was astnonished at the accuracy. After servicing and adjusting it was from +8 to -5 sec per day. I am really impressed with the 2609. Good find and good job!


i hope you do not mind me correcting you: HA does not High Accuracy. Although the movement is accurate.

HA in Cyrillic stands for New Automated. New refers to the new modified caliber. Automated refers to the way the the movement is assembled: partially or fully by automatic processes, not manually.


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## Grant J (Sep 20, 2020)

Another thing about these old movements that is a testament to their quality is their age.
Looking at 1950's - 70's movements, they are by no means new. In most cases they have stood the test of time.

When I was buying Russian lenses I read somewhere that often the beaten up ones could be better than the nicer looking ones.
Theory was that they had good optics and were used more. Sometimes the "mint" ones had defects, so were put away and not used.

I bought an old 50's Pobeda that looked like it had a hard life. It ran incredibly well on the wrist.


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## AlaskaJohnboy (Dec 25, 2016)

Odessa200 said:


> i hope you do not mind me correcting you: HA does not High Accuracy. Although the movement is accurate.
> 
> HA in Cyrillic stands for New Automated. New refers to the new modified caliber. Automated refers to the way the the movement is assembled: partially or fully by automatic processes, not manually.


 Well whadda ya kno. The Internet was wrong.
I learn sumthin new every day!
I was wondering how "the internet" got HA as High Accuracy, because I know the an "H" in cyrillic is really an "N" I never really questioned it.

Seriously, Thanks!
Now I know.


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

AlaskaJohnboy said:


> Well whadda ya kno. The Internet was wrong.
> I learn sumthin new every day!
> I was wondering how "the internet" got HA as High Accuracy, because I know the an "H" in cyrillic is really an "N" I never really questioned it.
> 
> ...


Same here. Something new every day!
High Accuracy for Raketa caliber would be NP (or НП in Cyrillic). Stands for 'New Precision' (or Новый Прецизионный in Russian).


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## AlaskaJohnboy (Dec 25, 2016)

Odessa200 said:


> Same here. Something new every day!
> High Accuracy for Raketa caliber would be NP (or НП in Cyrillic). Stands for 'New Precision' (or Новый Прецизионный in Russian).


Thanks again! Here it was after the rebuild. Way overbuilt, and the shock protected escape wheel must have really helped. Even after sitting for 6 months before being sold it started right up at +1 to -2 sec per day.


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## Grant J (Sep 20, 2020)

Ok. Time for some less precise examples.
This Zvezda loves to draw pictures of mountains.









The 1958 Volna is a bit of an artist too.









Ummm... huh?


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## Mep67 (Sep 2, 2021)

This thread had been very helpful! Does anyone know the lift angle for a ZIM 2602? Thanks


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## Odessa200 (Apr 12, 2019)

Mep67 said:


> This thread had been very helpful! Does anyone know the lift angle for a ZIM 2602? Thanks


42


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## Tianlung4028 (May 23, 2021)

Does anyone know the lift angle for the Type-1 K43 movement?

Thanks!

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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