# How much is the BR03-92 phantom really worth?



## sc_junky

I saw a listing on ebay selling this watch for $5500. Honestly I love BR watches but for the "limited edition" phantom that really isn't easy to read I feel $5500 is way overpriced. What's the resale value on that anyway? Could I possibly command $5000 in return should I buy and sell within the year (assuming the watch is still MINT)? From what I've seen on the forums and even ebay I'd be lucky to resell that watch for $3000.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260282985253









Item Number: 260282985253


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## Aqua Spearo

This one is not limited edition like the BR01.. plus it has a akward date window. The BR01 phantom sells for more today then it did new. FYI. A GP seahwak II Pro costs about $10K and sells on the bay used for under $5K. A 45% reduction in value from MSRP is pretty much standard which Is why its important to get a good deal.

B&R isnt trying to be a discount brand. If you base your business plan on selling huge amounts of watches because its a "good value" those watches will never achieve cult status as they will be commonplace.


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## RobDeep

$5,500 is way high for 03-92 ihmo. I saw a new BR03-92 Phantom go for $3,300 the other day on eBay. Same vendor I got my BR03-92 from. So if that helps...

Not sure if that's frowned upon on here... but I figured I'd share.


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## keiji

I saw one at a AD last month, the they where asking $4000 with no tax.


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## Spoon

this is a hit and miss subject. i have seen people in the bay deceive people by posing the br03-92 as a limited edition and some folks have fallen for it. it would be wise to do some research first before coming out with a figure based on what others are selling them for. theirs seem to be on the high side.

from what i have seen, the average would be between $3,300- $3500 max for this type of watch. like i said it is hit and miss but who know you could get lucky. good luck


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## Pegasus767

Since the BR01 phantom is hard to find and priced high, what are some opinions on the BR03 phantom. For those who have seen or owned one, is this watch a keeper or will the passage of time make one tired of this unique concept in a watch? Does the crystal show smugges easier against the black background? Bottom line as a fellow lover of B&R...is this phantom a buy or a pass for you at a fair price.

Thanks, Pegasus


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## deckard

The BR03-92 phantom and military model have sold very well and most ADs are discounting them very little now. While they are not limited the military is hard to find and Bell & Ross makes few of these watches at any given time. I purchased my BR03-92 Military at 20% off before the $500.00 price jump to $4000.00 and before they went on backorder. Be very careful purchasing from someone who is not an AD or does not have proof it came from an AD. B&R is very strict if you do not have proof it came from an AD, if you should need warranty coverage in the future.


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## Aqua Spearo

Not that I wouldnt definately enjoy owning the BR03 phantom, but Id much rather put the money towards a different model. My favorite Instrument models are the BR01 Phantom, BR01 Rose Gold and Carbon Chrono, BR03-94 PVD, BR01 Gold Ignot :-! The Gold Ingot model is like having a having a brick of gold on the wrist but will set you back 23K



Pegasus767 said:


> Since the BR01 phantom is hard to find and priced high, what are some opinions on the BR03 phantom. For those who have seen or owned one, is this watch a keeper or will the passage of time make one tired of this unique concept in a watch? Does the crystal show smugges easier against the black background? Bottom line as a fellow lover of B&R...is this phantom a buy or a pass for you at a fair price.
> 
> Thanks, Pegasus


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## Spoon

Aqua Spearo said:


> Not that I wouldnt definately enjoy owning the BR03 phantom, but Id much rather put the money towards a different model. My favorite Instrument models are the BR01 Phantom, BR01 Rose Gold and Carbon Chrono, BR03-94 PVD, BR01 Gold Ignot :-! The Gold Ingot model is like having a having a brick of gold on the wrist but will set you back 23K


br01 gold ingot? is that the one with the solid gold case? i havent seen any of those down here


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## HelloNasty1

Aqua Spearo said:


> This one is not limited edition like the BR01.. plus it has a akward date window.
> 
> B&R isnt trying to be a discount brand. If you base your business plan on selling huge amounts of watches because its a "good value" those watches will never achieve cult status as they will be commonplace.


How is the date window awkward? Not being a smarta$$, just curious as to why you feel this way.

B&R is not overly difficult to get 30% off straight from the AD, except on the limited editions or the more limited production models.


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## Spoon

HelloNasty1 said:


> How is the date window awkward? Not being a smarta$$, just curious as to why you feel this way.
> 
> B&R is not overly difficult to get 30% off straight from the AD, except on the limited editions or the more limited production models.


i agree too about being too awkward. the bro1 phantom has no date window, by adding a window as on the br03, you are breaking the clean monochrome look of the face. a small white window on the bottom right side can be an eyesore. thats just me though


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## HelloNasty1

I see now. I was thinking more of the location, opposed the phantom aspect. I would agree with you, thanks.


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## Aqua Spearo

Yeah its solid gold lol good thing about a gold watch of that size is there is not questioning if the watch will appreciate or not. Im considering selling my BR02 carbon and another watch to get the carbon and pink gold chrono.. thats a nice one too.


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## Spoon

Aqua Spearo said:


> Yeah its solid gold lol good thing about a gold watch of that size is there is not questioning if the watch will appreciate or not. Im considering selling my BR02 carbon and another watch to get the carbon and pink gold chrono.. thats a nice one too.


yes its a nice watch i have seen it. not to into gold though, maybe in a couple of decades


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## chunki

The BR03 Phantom is rarely discounted, if you find an AD willing to give you one buy it. Most Phantoms and Military dials are hard to come by, while not limited editions they are limited in their production compared to other models. I waited 3 months for my Military dial. I did get a discount on the Military but not on the Phantom. I couldn't find any AD willing to give a discount on the phantom and I tried many AD's, why would they , they sell very well at list price. Even the Military dial sells well and are hard to find without some kind of waiting period. The AD where I purchased the Military said they may not discount them any more because they only get 1-2 every 3-4 months and they are usually spoken for.

Regarding the BR03 Phantom, the date window isn't that bad. Its a muted white for the date, certainly not a bright white as used on standard date wheels ...over time I don't even notice it anymore...I think in most photographs the date sticks out more because the flash picks it up but in person it works with the all black theme....


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## sc_junky

I didn't like the phantom at first pure because to me black on black seems hard to read, but I'll admit it's grown on me and I would seriously consider getting one if the price were right.


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## Duffman471

I was just at Tourneau in Vegas a few days ago and was fortunate enough to find a phantom there (too bad they didn't have the BR01 limited). Anyway, I walked out with a BR03-92 for about $3320 plus the 7.5% tax ($3570 total). I would have had it shipped home to avoid the tax but it didn't work out since there's a Tourneau in my state.

I agree with the previous comment that the date window is subtle and shows up as more pronounced in the photos due to the flash/lighting. I barely notice it and don't feel it compromises the black on black look of the face at all.

The one issue I've had is that I don't always get a good charge for the dial. I called Tourneau and they actually said to shine a flashlight on it for a while to get a proper charge... Seriously????


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## DaLuca Straps

I have an 03-92 Phantom....and that was my 1 and ONLY complaint...its hard to see at night and its mainly due to the lack of the nightglow working.....even in the sun all day....doesnt hold its charge well for the green glow. Other than that....the watch is sweet...I cant really read it at all...unless its bright out...but who even wears a watch to use them nowadays with the iPhones and clocks all around?

-Daniel

www.DaLucaStraps.com



Duffman471 said:


> I was just at Tourneau in Vegas a few days ago and was fortunate enough to find a phantom there (too bad they didn't have the BR01 limited). Anyway, I walked out with a BR03-92 for about $3320 plus the 7.5% tax ($3570 total). I would have had it shipped home to avoid the tax but it didn't work out since there's a Tourneau in my state.
> 
> I agree with the previous comment that the date window is subtle and shows up as more pronounced in the photos due to the flash/lighting. I barely notice it and don't feel it compromises the black on black look of the face at all.
> 
> The one issue I've had is that I don't always get a good charge for the dial. I called Tourneau and they actually said to shine a flashlight on it for a while to get a proper charge... Seriously????


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## liquidgold

That's disappointing about the lume at night. I can understand the phantom being difficult to see during the day, but at night, I was hoping it would really shine.


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## HelloNasty1

The watch is not really meant for functionality purposes if you really break it down. Just a cool concept that looks great.


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## wdrazek

Sorry guys. I really do like B&R but a watch that is difficult to read in daylight and at night?? Not for me.


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## HelloNasty1

wdrazek said:


> Sorry guys. I really do like B&R but a watch that is difficult to read in daylight and at night?? Not for me.


Are you sure? You "+1" Bell & Ross being a quote "fashion brand". Not flaming, just reading the thread.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=253319


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## wdrazek

Yep, I'm sure. Don't want to fan the flames, but this is where I land on B+R. Please don't rip me apart.

I love the BR02 and BR03 designs, and some of the others. They are striking, original, and executed beautifully. However, it seems like changing the color of the hands and numerals creates a Limited Edition piece and doubling of the price. And, for a narrowly distributed brand there seem to be a lot of posts with QC issues here and on the official forum. Based on that, it's hard for me to rate it with Rolex and Omega, among others. 

Regarding the Phantom, readability is a very high priority for me. Which is why I love a lot of B+R's product. This one just does not have it.


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## HelloNasty1

Not sure what any of the above stated has to do with B&R being a "fashion brand". I can understand your points, but what you described is not a fashion brand. A fashion brand would be for example Kenneth Cole or Diesel. You do realize that the BR02 is a pretty serious diving watch at 1000m WR right? LE and pricing are separate issues all together. So if a brand does not meet the standards of the two brands you mentioned they are fashion watches? That would mean that Fortis, Tag Heuer, Glycine, and endless others would be fashion brands. Maybe I missing your point, but it seems you have more of an issue the business model and QC. This would not have anything to do with or qualify them as fashion brand. That said I do understand your points, just not your definition.


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## wdrazek

HelloNasty1 said:


> Not sure what any of the above stated has to do with B&R being a "fashion brand". I can understand your points, but what you described is not a fashion brand. A fashion brand would be for example Kenneth Cole or Diesel. You do realize that the BR02 is a pretty serious diving watch at 1000m WR right? LE and pricing are separate issues all together. So if a brand does not meet the standards of the two brands you mentioned they are fashion watches? That would mean that Fortis, Tag Heuer, Glycine, and endless others would be fashion brands. Maybe I missing your point, but it seems you have more of an issue the business model and QC. This would not have anything to do with or qualify them as fashion brand. That said I do understand your points, just not your definition.


I guess we define "Fashion Watch" differently. I agree with you that Armani, Kenneth Cole and others place design far ahead of horology and technological advancement. However, I've read that in several places that the movements from ETA are just dropped in, not enhanced like Omega, IWC, and many others. And there is not one B+R I know of, even the $10K Diamond Encrusted "Limited Editions", that are COSC certified. While some consider COSC a marketing tactic, it at least validates a certain level of timekeeping accuracy. This is particularly relevant for a timepiece that is a straight drop-in of an ETA movement.

Chanel buying B+R may be a good step - more capital available to refine things, create in-house movements, etc.. But the emphasis I see on changing colors, dials, etc. makes me wonder about the real emphasis of the brand. I recall the interview with co-founder Carlos Rolisillo in 2000 by Time Zone interviewer Michael Disher in which Mr. Rolissillo said "The design principles for a model are always chosen in order to meet the expectations of our users: readability, function, precision and water-tightness." Evidently, the first item Mr. Disher mentioned, which is critical to me, was abandoned with the introduction of the Phantom. Also, I question why the brand, whose flagship products are designed and suitable for pilots, would place water-tightness as a design goal.

More tellingly, in the 2003 www.easyflightjet.com interview Rosillo said of their designs, "For us it's all about not having superfluous detail. There's nothing on these watches that is useless. You might say there's not much color to them, for instance. But until we find that color has a real function, there won't be." How does that relate the Phantom, the diamonds and the bling, and so on?

As I said, I am not looking to fan the flames. Nor am I looking for a highly charged debate. I'm just stating my impressions of the brand. I like a number of B+R designs but the lack of COSC rating even in $10K+ timepieces, the reputation of simply inserting movement into the pieces and the brand objective of readibility contradicted by the Phantom watch cause lead me to conclude that this is a fashion watch brand. A very nice one with other technicological accomplishments, but a fashion brand in the end. If I could be convinced otherwise, I would buy a B+R.


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## HelloNasty1

Why would anyone not want a watch to be water tight even if you are a pilot? Not many people want a 4K+ watch that can be ruined by simply jumping in a pool, water tight does not always mean 1000m. There really is no reason to carry on this discussion as we are discussing semantics. I promise though that your definition of a fashion brand is not widely held by others. I would venture to say WUS will not be adding a Kenneth Cole Forum anytime soon as WUS would not have forum dedicated to "fashion brand". Take a gander at all brands and sponsors on WUS that do not have COSC watches. The funny thing about this discussion is that the opinions about B&R (not B+R) do not matter, it is the interpretation of fashion that gets me. I do not even own an B&R anymore for various reasons. Anyway, agree to disagree I suppose. Catch ya on a different thread, been fun. ;-)


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## wdrazek

It's been an interesting conversation, yes. I guess I'm just confused on what a fashion brand means to most WUS'ers. My take was that a Fashion Brand did not necessarily need to be a designer label like Armani, Kenneth Cole, etc. I thought it was more an orientation where style is the highest value. No matter. 

Catch you in another time and place. Til then, be well.;-)


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## Aqua Spearo

You seem to be a little confused if you think a watch is not a fashionable item.. They are all fashion watches, even over the top haute horology is a fashion piece as it serves no meaningful purpose. When people say "fashion brand", they are refering to mall brand fashion companies creating a cheap watch to sell you. Instead its being used as a flamebait. People like you, seem to have a shallow understanding and unrealistic expectation of fledgling watch companies that take a long time to start. Conglomerate umbrella corporation like the swatch group have massive amounts of funds to invest into inhouse movements, which still took omega over 10 years to complete ( longer then B&R has been an established company).. rolex as well, used shelf movements for their watches in the beginning. B&R has concentrated on high end finishing (which is consitantly sharper then omega I might add) for the time being they do not have the resource or the ability to do watchmaking in house yet.... but is that stopping them from dreaming up completely unseen complications like the B&R Minuteur? B&R is unique from many of this other brands because its indepedent. Channel owns a stake in the company.. not the majority share. They are a stand alone company that sells a limited number of watches worldwide. They are a CONSTANT trend setter, who leads instead of follows. This is no different then the people that would refer to panerai as a overpriced fashion brand.. look who is laughing now.. best in house movements in class. The brand is well managed, so I would look for them to continue to evolve and expand as they are having great success. You would really have to explain to me why doing cheesy 007 movie editions for $15%, complete with paid for movie plugs is better a proper approach.. pure tackyness for the masses is what I call that.

Phantom watches are just cool. I would wear one to mexico without fear. Would you wear a gold rolex there?



wdrazek said:


> I guess we define "Fashion Watch" differently. I agree with you that Armani, Kenneth Cole and others place design far ahead of horology and technological advancement. However, I've read that in several places that the movements from ETA are just dropped in, not enhanced like Omega, IWC, and many others. And there is not one B+R I know of, even the $10K Diamond Encrusted "Limited Editions", that are COSC certified. While some consider COSC a marketing tactic, it at least validates a certain level of timekeeping accuracy. This is particularly relevant for a timepiece that is a straight drop-in of an ETA movement.
> 
> Chanel buying B+R may be a good step - more capital available to refine things, create in-house movements, etc.. But the emphasis I see on changing colors, dials, etc. makes me wonder about the real emphasis of the brand. I recall the interview with co-founder Carlos Rolisillo in 2000 by Time Zone interviewer Michael Disher in which Mr. Rolissillo said "The design principles for a model are always chosen in order to meet the expectations of our users: readability, function, precision and water-tightness." Evidently, the first item Mr. Disher mentioned, which is critical to me, was abandoned with the introduction of the Phantom. Also, I question why the brand, whose flagship products are designed and suitable for pilots, would place water-tightness as a design goal.
> 
> More tellingly, in the 2003 www.easyflightjet.com interview Rosillo said of their designs, "For us it's all about not having superfluous detail. There's nothing on these watches that is useless. You might say there's not much color to them, for instance. But until we find that color has a real function, there won't be." How does that relate the Phantom, the diamonds and the bling, and so on?
> 
> As I said, I am not looking to fan the flames. Nor am I looking for a highly charged debate. I'm just stating my impressions of the brand. I like a number of B+R designs but the lack of COSC rating even in $10K+ timepieces, the reputation of simply inserting movement into the pieces and the brand objective of readibility contradicted by the Phantom watch cause lead me to conclude that this is a fashion watch brand. A very nice one with other technicological accomplishments, but a fashion brand in the end. If I could be convinced otherwise, I would buy a B+R.


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## wdrazek

Aqua Spearo said:


> You seem to be a little confused if you think a watch is not a fashionable item.. They are all fashion watches, even over the top haute horology is a fashion piece as it serves no meaningful purpose. When people say "fashion brand", they are refering to mall brand fashion companies creating a cheap watch to sell you. Instead its being used as a flamebait. People like you, seem to have a shallow understanding and unrealistic expectation of fledgling watch companies that take a long time to start. Conglomerate umbrella corporation like the swatch group have massive amounts of funds to invest into inhouse movements, which still took omega over 10 years to complete ( longer then B&R has been an established company).. rolex as well, used shelf movements for their watches in the beginning. B&R has concentrated on high end finishing (which is consitantly sharper then omega I might add) for the time being they do not have the resource or the ability to do watchmaking in house yet.... but is that stopping them from dreaming up completely unseen complications like the B&R Minuteur? B&R is unique from many of this other brands because its indepedent. Channel owns a stake in the company.. not the majority share. They are a stand alone company that sells a limited number of watches worldwide. They are a CONSTANT trend setter, who leads instead of follows. This is no different then the people that would refer to panerai as a overpriced fashion brand.. look who is laughing now.. best in house movements in class. The brand is well managed, so I would look for them to continue to evolve and expand as they are having great success. You would really have to explain to me why doing cheesy 007 movie editions for $15%, complete with paid for movie plugs is better a proper approach.. pure tackyness for the masses is what I call that.
> 
> Phantom watches are just cool. I would wear one to mexico without fear. Would you wear a gold rolex there?


Oh, I think I have just been flamed. Boy, did that not hurt. First off, where did I ever say that watches were not fashion statements? Second, where did I say that B&R should have an in-house movement? And it goes on from there...

The co-CEO is on record saying nothing will be added - not even a color - if it doesn't add to functionality. So what is the improved functionality for a watch that was previously highly legible that you can barely read now?

The reason you can wear a Phantom in Mexico without fear is because it is an unknown to most people. And that is important because of what? I'm beyond trying to be part of the cognoscenti, the few who are really "in the know." I want something legible, attractive and it has to keep excellent time. Many B&R models fit the criteria but not all do and the Phantom does not.

With all due respect, you have been plugging everything B&R does and tries like their PR arm for as long as this column has been around. I keep my mind and eyes open. Some of their products I love, others not so much. Same with any other brand, Panerai, Patek, Rolex, Omega, etc...

If a fashion watch is a mall-grade quartz piece with designer label clearly B&R is not that. But if styling and fashion-forward is the the core of a brand in my world it is a fashion brand. In my book, B&R is that.


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## Aqua Spearo

I think your getting lost in the fact that all of the BR01 colored dials, the skull watch, and any others that are you are refering to as non functional are all limited edition watches.. 1/500 MAX worldwide, ever. These arent the primary line of watches, and are meant for collectors and those already excited about the brand.. this is also why the price is so high ( the BR03 phantom is a model served up for the masses). Is this any different then people paying 25% more for a rolex that has a green bezel or specific serial number? Your making a selective argument here and ignoring other designs like the minuteur, which is clearly a vast improvement on a typical chronograph in legibility for use in aeronautics.. this was their latest completed new watch.

10 Day power reserve
PR Indicator
flyback
Jumping half hour counter
subsidiary hours minutes












wdrazek said:


> Oh, I think I have just been flamed. Boy, did that not hurt. First off, where did I ever say that watches were not fashion statements? Second, where did I say that B&R should have an in-house movement? And it goes on from there...
> 
> The co-CEO is on record saying nothing will be added - not even a color - if it doesn't add to functionality. So what is the improved functionality for a watch that was previously highly legible that you can barely read now?
> 
> The reason you can wear a Phantom in Mexico without fear is because it is an unknown to most people. And that is important because of what? I'm beyond trying to be part of the cognoscenti, the few who are really "in the know." I want something legible, attractive and it has to keep excellent time. Many B&R models fit the criteria but not all do and the Phantom does not.
> 
> With all due respect, you have been plugging everything B&R does and tries like their PR arm for as long as this column has been around. I keep my mind and eyes open. Some of their products I love, others not so much. Same with any other brand, Panerai, Patek, Rolex, Omega, etc...
> 
> If a fashion watch is a mall-grade quartz piece with designer label clearly B&R is not that. But if styling and fashion-forward is the the core of a brand in my world it is a fashion brand. In my book, B&R is that.


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## wdrazek

OK. Making very small quatities of BR01's with different coloring and jewels so Fanboys and collectors can buy them is OK for a "fledgling" brand. Still, I have a hard time reconciling it with this statement:

“For us it’s all about not having superfluous detail. There’s nothing on these watches that is useless. You might say there’s not much color to them, for instance. But until we find that color has a real function, there won’t be.” 

That's a pretty bold statement. Not sure Rolex ever claimed something so over the top. 

I guess poor slobs like me should be grateful to B&R. After all, they do produce an illegible Phantom BR03 in sufficient numbers that it can be had for a measly $5.5k USD. ;-)

All kidding aside, as I said earlier I like a number of B&R products. The BR series is groundbreaking, no doubt. But I do fear that the noble statements of function above all esle may be losing out over the need to create something unusual, unexpected. Time will tell and I hope B&R is around for a long time.


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## wdrazek

Duplicate post. Deleted.


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