# New Oris Calibre 400 Announced



## ofted42

There she is, more details at the link below. No mention of which watches it's slated for yet. And beware, once you see the bear you cannot unsee the bear.

Oris Calibre 400


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## ofted42

Already noticed that if you rotate the weight you have Terminator Bear


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## TechGuyJ

I really like what Oris has been doing the last few years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MX793

Interesting that they chose to forgo ball bearings on the rotor at a time when even Rolex has adopted such.


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## craigr812

Took me a minute, but you are right; I cannot unsee the bear! Thanks for sharing.


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## craigr812

MX793 said:


> Interesting that they chose to forgo ball bearings on the rotor at a time when even Rolex has adopted such.


Oris' reasoning for no ball bearings is on the link the OP provided. See below for more details.

One of Oris's fundamental ambitions with Calibre 400 was to eliminate problems before they occur. Oris's engineers identified that one of the most frequent issues with automatic mechanical movements concerns the ball-bearing system that allows the free-spinning oscillating weight (or rotor) to rotate. This is a critical element of an automatic watch - as the rotor spins, it generates power that's stored in the mainspring, which is housed in the barrel. So we removed the ball bearing altogether and replaced it with a low-friction slide bearing system, in which a metal stud runs through a lubricated sleeve. This is much less complex, highly efficient, and involves far less wear and tear, making it less prone to breakdowns.


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## ofted42

MX793 said:


> Interesting that they chose to forgo ball bearings on the rotor at a time when even Rolex has adopted such.


Yeah, as a mechanical engineer I have trouble with the claim that a stud through a lubricated sleeve involves less wear and tear than a bearing system. Although a lubricated sleeve can be more robust in extreme applications, you typically don't see it in applications that required extremely low resistance and are fairly clean.

I'll try not to fully geek out here, but with something like this the speed is low enough that you don't have any kind of hydrostatic or hydrodynamic bearing, so your load (very small in this case, but it's there) is taken up by the contacting solid surfaces and the grease serves to provide a few molecule thick layer that's absorbed into those surfaces. This means the materials you pick need to be matched well otherwise they can start to gall if there's even a slight breakdown in that lubricant.

However, this type of system is great for things like mining machinery. When we design things like undercarriage rolling elements it's a dirty environment that's extremely high load and low speed. Can't count on bearings, they'd never live in that environment or under those loads. Hence a shaft/journal bearing with a lubrication system that's constantly adding grease.

Now that everyone's lost interest, gist of it is it seems like a solution for something that's not a problem. The loads and speeds are so low I have trouble believing it was a common failure point. You hear about bearings wearing out in other parts of the watch but typically not the rotor. Guess we'll see what happens.


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## ermicas

Like the movement! They continues to push the limits and at their price point, Oris is a very good choice!

Now the questions is, in which watches it will be used?


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## WillMK5

I’m really excited about this, I’m curious if this will keep them competitive with Tudor in that price range. 


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## snikerdewdle

If they put this in a Diver 65 and price it comparably to a Black Bay, I would gladly pick one up over the Tudor. I'm still holding out hope that they put it in something new made out of titanium lol


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## sticky

I freely confess that it took me more than a couple of minutes to see the bear but I got there in the end. I wonder what watch Oris will decide to fit it to?


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## MX793

craigr812 said:


> Oris' reasoning for no ball bearings is on the link the OP provided. See below for more details.
> 
> One of Oris's fundamental ambitions with Calibre 400 was to eliminate problems before they occur. Oris's engineers identified that one of the most frequent issues with automatic mechanical movements concerns the ball-bearing system that allows the free-spinning oscillating weight (or rotor) to rotate. This is a critical element of an automatic watch - as the rotor spins, it generates power that's stored in the mainspring, which is housed in the barrel. So we removed the ball bearing altogether and replaced it with a low-friction slide bearing system, in which a metal stud runs through a lubricated sleeve. This is much less complex, highly efficient, and involves far less wear and tear, making it less prone to breakdowns.


Yes, I read that, but as an engineer, I question the decision. I also don't tend to totally buy into press material, as said material will always paint everything as positively as possible, including only highlighting pros and ignoring cons. A lubricated sleeve or bushing is not generally used in applications where you have something that is intended to spin almost continuously 360 degrees. The wheels on your car or bicycle, even the crank for a bicycle, are using roller bearings instead of lubricated sleeves for a reason. They tend to offer lower resistance and longer life. The introduction of roller bearings for rotors was a huge breakthrough (thanks Eterna) and subsequently widely adopted.

Rolex used this same sleeve design for a great many years and it was a known weak point in their movements as far as shock resistance was concerned. They finally fully transitioned to roller bearings with their latest generation of movements.


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## Mr.Jones82

I have to agree, since when has the rotor been a common failure point? I’m not a watchmaker so I’m more than willing to be educated on this, but I’ve never heard that before. I actually kind of,like the bear design by the way. Hahaha
Anyway, I was prepared to shrug my shoulders after reading that and say yeah, but I prefer the affordable ETA/Sellitas rather than a needless in-house with a dubious, manufactured differentiating point...but a 10 year recommended service? Only Rolex does that at a somewhat comparable price. That is very impressive, not to mention the 10 year warranty. I’m incredibly curious now and cannot wait to see what model(s) will house this. I’m also very about pricing on this for what they seem to be offering.
Also, the movement seems quite big when looking at the dimensions...


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## craigr812

MX793 said:


> Yes, I read that, but as an engineer, I question the decision. I also don't tend to totally buy into press material, as said material will always paint everything as positively as possible, including only highlighting pros and ignoring cons. A lubricated sleeve or bushing is not generally used in applications where you have something that is intended to spin almost continuously 360 degrees. The wheels on your car or bicycle, even the crank for a bicycle, are using roller bearings instead of lubricated sleeves for a reason. They tend to offer lower resistance and longer life. The introduction of roller bearings for rotors was a huge breakthrough (thanks Eterna) and subsequently widely adopted.
> 
> Rolex used this same sleeve design for a great many years and it was a known weak point in their movements as far as shock resistance was concerned. They finally fully transitioned to roller bearings with their latest generation of movements.


I'll trust you and the OP on this one as engineers. Math and science were never my friends in school.


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## WotRUBuyinWotRUSelin

On one hand, I was going to say I could see this not being a replacement for their Sellita based watches but without a new watch unveil, I'm not sure where else they'd use this? Also I thought the red rotor was part of Oris's trademark. I like the look of this, but wondering if they would shed that red rotor in all their movements or if this will just be like the caliber 11x movements in a higher price tier.


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## MX793

ofted42 said:


> Yeah, as a mechanical engineer I have trouble with the claim that a stud through a lubricated sleeve involves less wear and tear than a bearing system. Although a lubricated sleeve can be more robust in extreme applications, you typically don't see it in applications that required extremely low resistance and are fairly clean.
> 
> I'll try not to fully geek out here, but with something like this the speed is low enough that you don't have any kind of hydrostatic or hydrodynamic bearing, so your load (very small in this case, but it's there) is taken up by the contacting solid surfaces and the grease serves to provide a few molecule thick layer that's absorbed into those surfaces. This means the materials you pick need to be matched well otherwise they can start to gall if there's even a slight breakdown in that lubricant.
> 
> However, this type of system is great for things like mining machinery. When we design things like undercarriage rolling elements it's a dirty environment that's extremely high load and low speed. Can't count on bearings, they'd never live in that environment or under those loads. Hence a shaft/journal bearing with a lubrication system that's constantly adding grease.
> 
> Now that everyone's lost interest, gist of it is it seems like a solution for something that's not a problem. The loads and speeds are so low I have trouble believing it was a common failure point. You hear about bearings wearing out in other parts of the watch but typically not the rotor. Guess we'll see what happens.


The lubricated sleeve was the typical bearing type until Eterna came up with a miniature roller/ball bearing in the late 1940s. Once their patent was up, pretty much every movement manufacturer transitioned to ball bearings by the 1960s or 70s. Notable exceptions would be Rolex as well as very inexpensive movements. Rolex, fairly recently, has finally adopted ball bearings.


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## ofted42

MX793 said:


> The lubricated sleeve was the typical bearing type until Eterna came up with a miniature roller/ball bearing in the late 1940s. Once their patent was up, pretty much every movement manufacturer transitioned to ball bearings by the 1960s or 70s. Notable exceptions would be Rolex as well as very inexpensive movements. Rolex, fairly recently, has finally adopted ball bearings.


Yeah, which makes it odd that they'd go back. Unless there's some clever things they've done that we don't know about (probably). Still seems risky though, I agree that a roller bearing makes the most sense for this type of application.


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## JJ312

Five day power reserve is impressive! Very interested to see what they put this in.


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## JustinMFrost

Big points to Oris on this one. We have some looming questions out to Oris HQ that will be a part of our actual edit coverage on this. There is a new model coming, not too far away (cannot disclose any more than that for now).

Our big questions include what sort of price premium this caliber will carry, and whether or not this movement will become the new Oris baseline for 3-handed watches over time. I'd love to see them have this be the new normal—an entry-tier mechanical watch brand whose opening power reserve is 120 hours would be a great play so long as they don't crank the prices up.

Will update when we have more news to share.


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## ofted42

There, easier to see the bear


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## munichblue

There will be a new Aquis with the new movement announced at Hallowe’en. Mark my words!


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## WillMK5

munichblue said:


> There will be a new Aquis with the new movement announced at Hallowe'en. Mark my words!


Do you know something the rest of us don't?!?!


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## Barbababa

ofted42 said:


> Yeah, which makes it odd that they'd go back. Unless there's some clever things they've done that we don't know about (probably). Still seems risky though, I agree that a roller bearing makes the most sense for this type of application.


I am no engineer, but it sounds like a "plain" bearing with only one shaft rotating in a hole with lubricants. It´s comon for turbo chargers on cars have this solution but with constant lubricating, like a fluid bearing. From what I have read, a plain baring is well suited for slow spinning aplications. _"Generally, there is considerable speed range overlap between bearing types. Plain bearings typically handle only lower speeds, rolling element bearings are faster, followed by fluid bearings and finally magnetic bearings which are limited ultimately by centripetal force overcoming material strength. _" *wikipedia


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## davidevo

munichblue said:


> There will be a new Aquis with the new movement announced at Hallowe'en. Mark my words!


An aquis GMT please with all their world citizen talk...


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## LearnedwatchHand

120 hours of power reserve! Very impressive.


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## Yukoner1

JustinMFrost said:


> Our big questions include what sort of price premium this caliber will carry


Some other folks have mentioned a $5K price tag. Not sure if that's speculation or something they've heard from someone in a position of authority.


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## munichblue

Yukoner1 said:


> Some other folks have mentioned a $5K price tag. Not sure if that's speculation or something they've heard from someone in a position of authority.


Will be around the 3k mark.


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## MX793

Yukoner1 said:


> Some other folks have mentioned a $5K price tag. Not sure if that's speculation or something they've heard from someone in a position of authority.


Look at pricing for models using the Cal 11x in-house movements. I don't see watches using the new Cal 400 being priced any lower.


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## Patrick_PJA

Adrian of 'Bark and Jack' said that he was surprised about the price, in a positive way. 
But that the price was still embargoed.


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## John Frum

Is this Oris system in any way similar to the Rolex 3135 rotor axle, which seems to be its Achilles heel?


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## ofted42

Probably hard to tell until someone pulls one of these apart. I'll definitely be interested to see what it looks like. If I grab one it'll be tough not to take out the screwdrivers and go look..... which sometimes has not ended well.


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## MX793

John Frum said:


> Is this Oris system in any way similar to the Rolex 3135 rotor axle, which seems to be its Achilles heel?


Looks similar. But the Oris is uni-directional winding (like a Miyota or Valjoux) rather than bi-directional like Rolex.


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## fruxzak

ITT: armchair "engineers" offering their opinions 😂😂😂


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## MissileExpert

Impressive specs! The power reserve (120 hours), warranty (10 years), and service interval (10 years) are nice. 

Another engineer here agreeing that a ball bearing rotor would have less friction. I suspect the choice to use it had more to do with cost than reliability. You'll also notice 21 jewels compared to an ETA 2824 with 25 jewels. That either means fewer rotating contacts in the design, or eliminating jewels for infrequently rotating joints. I'd like to hear about its performance and accuracy more before I would invest in an Oris with that calibre.


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## dfwcowboy

Mr.Jones82 said:


> I have to agree, since when has the rotor been a common failure point?


I don't know that they fail completely all that often, but it is fairly common for them to get loose and if there's little clearance with the caseback it will rub and generate noise.


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## dfwcowboy

ofted42 said:


> Yeah, which makes it odd that they'd go back. Unless there's some clever things they've done that we don't know about (probably). Still seems risky though, I agree that a roller bearing makes the most sense for this type of application.


Some modern slide bearings use teflon type coatings and can be quite efficient and reliable. I don't know if that's what they are doing here, but it wouldn't surprise me.


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## ofted42

fruxzak said:


> ITT: armchair "engineers" offering their opinions 😂😂😂


Damn straight, in the armchair and at work!


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## JustinMFrost

Yukoner1 said:


> Some other folks have mentioned a $5K price tag. Not sure if that's speculation or something they've heard from someone in a position of authority.


Curious. Not sure where information would have leaked, though retailers are notorious for sharing more than they're permitted when they get intel from brands. I would struggle with a $5k price tag, and I really hope that's not the case, for their sake. As a comparator, the new Baume et Mercier 5-day COSC certified pieces start at $2,990, and other brands have gotten smarter about not putting big premiums on going in-house with caliber manufacturing. I feel as though it's speculation but time will tell.


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## MX793

MissileExpert said:


> Impressive specs! The power reserve (120 hours), warranty (10 years), and service interval (10 years) are nice.
> 
> Another engineer here agreeing that a ball bearing rotor would have less friction. I suspect the choice to use it had more to do with cost than reliability. You'll also notice 21 jewels compared to an ETA 2824 with 25 jewels. That either means fewer rotating contacts in the design, or eliminating jewels for infrequently rotating joints. I'd like to hear about its performance and accuracy more before I would invest in an Oris with that calibre.


It looks like the pallet fork is silicon and without jewels, similar to the ETA C07.111 that Tissot and Certina use.


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## harryst

ofted42 said:


> Damn straight, in the armchair and at work!


Verifiable only w/ a pic with the DC66 - or at least a Seiko - on


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## nonfatproduct

I am excited to see Oris pushing the envelope and trying new things and I cannot wait to see what model they put this in.


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## MX793

dfwcowboy said:


> Some modern slide bearings use teflon type coatings and can be quite efficient and reliable. I don't know if that's what they are doing here, but it wouldn't surprise me.


Yes, Teflon lined bushings/bearings are common. However, I'm not sure how easy that is to do at the size scale of watch components.


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## MikeWatchUK

ofted42 said:


> Yeah, as a mechanical engineer I have trouble with the claim that a stud through a lubricated sleeve involves less wear and tear than a bearing system. Although a lubricated sleeve can be more robust in extreme applications, you typically don't see it in applications that required extremely low resistance and are fairly clean.
> 
> I'll try not to fully geek out here, but with something like this the speed is low enough that you don't have any kind of hydrostatic or hydrodynamic bearing, so your load (very small in this case, but it's there) is taken up by the contacting solid surfaces and the grease serves to provide a few molecule thick layer that's absorbed into those surfaces. This means the materials you pick need to be matched well otherwise they can start to gall if there's even a slight breakdown in that lubricant.
> 
> However, this type of system is great for things like mining machinery. When we design things like undercarriage rolling elements it's a dirty environment that's extremely high load and low speed. Can't count on bearings, they'd never live in that environment or under those loads. Hence a shaft/journal bearing with a lubrication system that's constantly adding grease.
> 
> Now that everyone's lost interest, gist of it is it seems like a solution for something that's not a problem. The loads and speeds are so low I have trouble believing it was a common failure point. You hear about bearings wearing out in other parts of the watch but typically not the rotor. Guess we'll see what happens.


As an optometrist I see the point you're making.


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## Benno1uk

I'm sure the Oris engineers know what they're doing.

Reading a report on Scottish Watches about the new Calibre 400, they seem to be under the impression that this movement will be replacing the Sellita to become the standard workhorse Oris movement. If this is correct, then I imagine there won't be too much of a price hike. This could be groundbreaking for Oris as a brand.

Here is a link to the article:New Movement : Oris Calibre 400 - Scottish Watches


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## ofted42

Benno1uk said:


> I'm sure the Oris engineers know what they're doing.


Yeah, but it's fun to speculate on what they did and why anyway! Plus, I'm sure someone said the same thing about GM right before the key fell out of their ignition on the highway...


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## munichblue

To summarise my prediction:


Release end of October
Model will be Aquis
Price around the 3k mark

Cant wait to get it. ?


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## omeglycine

munichblue said:


> To summarise my prediction:
> 
> 
> Release end of October
> Model will be Aquis
> Price around the 3k mark
> 
> Cant wait to get it. ?


I'm rooting for you and the accuracy of your prediction! I also hope we see a GMT complication added not too far down the road.


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## ofted42

If they make this an Aquis and add "new easy micro adjust clasp" to the list my credit card's going to have wallet burn.


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## Benno1uk

The Scottish Watch article says the press know what the watch is but are supposed to keep it quiet. It will be released on Oct 29. I suspect Munichblue knows that it is an Aquis, which begs the question, will the design be the same as the current version? And will they discontinue the Sellita version or have both alongside each other?


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## Yukoner1

JustinMFrost said:


> Curious. Not sure where information would have leaked, though retailers are notorious for sharing more than they're permitted when they get intel from brands. I would struggle with a $5k price tag, and I really hope that's not the case, for their sake. As a comparator, the new Baume et Mercier 5-day COSC certified pieces start at $2,990, and other brands have gotten smarter about not putting big premiums on going in-house with caliber manufacturing. I feel as though it's speculation but time will tell.


Not sure. I did see it in another thread though. It will be interesting to see where they think their place in the market is with this new movement !


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## Nkjm11

Anyone know what the power reserve will be on this?


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## GreatScott

Click the link

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## hgercek

Shouldn't there be jewels on the pallet fork? It looks already worn out on this video.


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## MX793

hgercek said:


> Shouldn't there be jewels on the pallet fork? It looks already worn out on this video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15501231


Steel forks are typically jeweled. This movement uses silicon for the fork and escape wheel. Should last a long time. A few other movements similarly forgo jewels in this area when using silicon.


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## hgercek

MX793 said:


> Steel forks are typically jeweled. This movement uses silicon for the fork and escape wheel. Should last a long time. A few other movements similarly forgo jewels in this area when using silicon.


Yes, I just found out that some other silicon escapements also don't have jewels on the fork. I still wonder if it is as durable as a regular steel fork with jewels.


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## Ginseng108

Very impressive. This movement could motivate me to get back into the Oris camp. Wrap it properly and you've got some real competition for Tudor.


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## Avo

Anyone know the beat rate?

I assume it's slow, or they would have mentioned it. 

I have zero interest in center-second-hand watches slower than 28800.


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## NC_Hager626

Nkjm11 said:


> Anyone know what the power reserve will be on this?


Each barrel holds 2.5 days of power reserve. So that like 60 hrs per barrel or 120 hrs for both barrels.


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## COZ

Avo said:


> Anyone know the beat rate?
> 
> I assume it's slow, or they would have mentioned it.
> 
> I have zero interest in center-second-hand watches slower than 28800.


28,800 (4 hz) per Oris website...






Oris. Swiss Watches in Hölstein since 1904.


Manufacturer of luxurious mechanical watches. Discover the Oris collection and all novelties on the official Oris website.




oris.ch


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## ofted42

Date wheel in that video is set up for a 6 o'clock window position.


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## JJ312

ofted42 said:


> Damn straight, in the armchair and at work!


And wearing no watch, I see.


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## Avo

COZ said:


> 28,800 (4 hz) per Oris website...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oris. Swiss Watches in Hölstein since 1904.
> 
> 
> Manufacturer of luxurious mechanical watches. Discover the Oris collection and all novelties on the official Oris website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oris.ch


Excellent!


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## desk jockey

Looks like a standard flat spring regulator. Free-sprung balance would have been far more at home in an Oris sports watch. I know I sound like a **** for saying this but it looks like a missed opportunity.

I still really like everything else.


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## Yukoner1

Oris Releases In-house Movement: Oris Calibre 400


Independent watchmaker Oris is introducing the in-house Oris Calibre 400 with 5 days of power reserve, antimagnetic properties and 10 year warranty.




swisswatches-magazine.com


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## MX793

desk jockey said:


> Looks like a standard flat spring regulator. Free-sprung balance would have been far more at home in an Oris sports watch. I know I sound like a **** for saying this but it looks like a missed opportunity.
> 
> I still really like everything else.


Regulator looks very similar to the one in the Cal 11x family.

Not sure why you would say a FSB would be at home in an Oris sports watch. I'm not aware that they've ever made a FSB movement, going back to the middle 20th century when they used to make their own movements.


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## desk jockey

MX793 said:


> Regulator looks very similar to the one in the Cal 11x family.
> 
> Not sure why you would say a FSB would be at home in an Oris sports watch. I'm not aware that they've ever made a FSB movement, going back to the middle 20th century when they used to make their own movements.


You're correct, they never did. What I meant by that is that the added resilience to timing variations from knocks and bumps is really well suited to a sports watch and Oris makes some great ones, is all.


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## ToddJ

If you can see the bear from the back, then I'm definitely in?


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## ofted42

JJ312 said:


> And wearing no watch, I see.


You got me. Weren't allowed on the machines while we were doing work due to the possibility of it getting hung up on stuff. Plus, being a hydraulic engineer, I wouldn't have wanted to subject a watch to the kind of crap we were doing.


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## ReallyBored

ofted42 said:


> View attachment 15500944
> 
> 
> There, easier to see the bear


Oh the Bear is smiling!

Such a nice Bear!

Here's a picnic basket!


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## James_

I read or heard somewhere that the Oris manual wind movement is made somewhere else for Oris. Is this the case with this new automatic movement? Also is that quite normal to call a movement in-house when it's made for them somewhere else?


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## MX793

James_ said:


> I read or heard somewhere that the Oris manual wind movement is made somewhere else for Oris. Is this the case with this new automatic movement? Also is that quite normal to call a movement in-house when it's made for them somewhere else?


Obviously, fully "in-house" would mean designed and produced in house. That said, I don't think it at all inappropriate to label a movement designed by, but not fabricated by, the company that builds/sells the watches to also be "in house". A movement doesn't exist without a design (engineering and intellectual property). Fabrication is simply following the instructions/blueprints.


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## WillMK5

James_ said:


> I read or heard somewhere that the Oris manual wind movement is made somewhere else for Oris. Is this the case with this new automatic movement? Also is that quite normal to call a movement in-house when it's made for them somewhere else?


If memory serves right, the Caliber 110 was design in conjunction with another company related to the Festina group.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## James_

What would be other examples of brands that do this? Is it the same for the Tudor in-house movement? For example.


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## snikerdewdle

James_ said:


> What would be other examples of brands that do this? Is it the same for the Tudor in-house movement? For example.


I believe so. If I'm not mistaken Tudor shares these movements with Chanel and Norqain who all hold a stake in the manufacturing company Kenissi. They also swap some of these movements with Breitling in exchange for their B01 chrono.


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## sea_urchin

Looking at other videos of this shows a nice big date dial, nice one Oris


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## sea_urchin

hgercek said:


> Shouldn't there be jewels on the pallet fork? It looks already worn out on this video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15501231


I agree, if you are going to go showcase your new movement then they should have at least micro checked all parts of the movement, cause they should know once out in the wild that is exactly what us watch folks will be doing, this looks poor finishing.


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## MisterV

If only they actually made standout designs based on that calibre. I mean... I really like what they're trying to do in general, but they seriously need better designers for their "higher end" stuff. The Artelier series can be charitably described as "forgettable", and look at their used market price... even I - who often buys stuff because it's a good deal and then I convince myself to like it - still haven't bought any of their Arteliers.


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## ofted42

I don't know, I really like what they're doing with their new manual wind calibres in that lineup. An Artelier Calibre 112 in blue/gray has become my dream watch for work.










In general I really like what Oris is doing and I think they're definitely going in the right direction with their business philosophy. They're independent, have a great history, and they're using the fact that they're not beholden to a huge conglomerate that's intent on maximizing profits to go their own way.

Provide great value for money with unique designs powered by sourced Sellita movements
Develop higher end calibres that are unique and not just knockoffs or copies of existing movements. 
Put those higher end calibres in watches that are still great value for money but provide something unique in that slightly higher end bracket.
For example, yes, you can get a skeletonized watch like the propilot 115, but you'll pay a hell of a lot more

The thing that makes me laugh is still hearing people say "Looks great, but it's still an Oris". Not even sure what that means any more. Take away the brand name and say "skeletonized in-house movement with 10 day power reserve and titanium case from a swiss brand with 100 years of history" and people would be all over it. The fact that Oris is doing all this while still being independent give them even more credibility in my eyes.


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## Yukoner1

ofted42 said:


> In general I really like what Oris is doing and I think they're definitely going in the right direction with their business philosophy. They're independent, have a great history, and they're using the fact that they're not beholden to a huge conglomerate that's intent on maximizing profits to go their own way.
> 
> Provide great value for money with unique designs powered by sourced Sellita movements
> Develop higher end calibres that are unique and not just knockoffs or copies of existing movements.
> Put those higher end calibres in watches that are still great value for money but provide something unique in that slightly higher end bracket.
> For example, yes, you can get a skeletonized watch like the propilot 115, but you'll pay a hell of a lot more
> 
> The thing that makes me laugh is still hearing people say "Looks great, but it's still an Oris". Not even sure what that means any more. Take away the brand name and say "skeletonized in-house movement with 10 day power reserve and titanium case from a swiss brand with 100 years of history" and people would be all over it. The fact that Oris is doing all this while still being independent give them even more credibility in my eyes.


Not sure I could have summarized this in a better way. Absolutely, 100% agree with this.


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## Viper98912

Look forward to seeing the first watch they put this in....


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## flame2000

Maybe this movement in a new range of diver's without that proprietary lugs. I'm in.


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## Mr.Jones82

MisterV said:


> If only they actually made standout designs based on that calibre. I mean... I really like what they're trying to do in general, but they seriously need better designers for their "higher end" stuff. The Artelier series can be charitably described as "forgettable", and look at their used market price... even I - who often buys stuff because it's a good deal and then I convince myself to like it - still haven't bought any of their Arteliers.


Agree on most of the Arteliers. I bought one and the handset looked like it had been cut with a can opener. I love Oris, but they need to narrow their lineup down a bit or rethink it. The Artix, Artelier, Classic, BC3, TT1, and Williams seem to dilute the catalogue quite a bit in my opinion. I think they could trim it down a bit to make a stronger, more consistent set of designs.
But I disagree about their inhouse calibres being placed in poor designs. I love the look of the inhoude Artelier and find it to be an outlier in the Artelier series and I love the Propilot models it was placed in, too. 


ofted42 said:


> I don't know, I really like what they're doing with their new manual wind calibres in that lineup. An Artelier Calibre 112 in blue/gray has become my dream watch for work.
> 
> View attachment 15502398
> 
> 
> In general I really like what Oris is doing and I think they're definitely going in the right direction with their business philosophy. They're independent, have a great history, and they're using the fact that they're not beholden to a huge conglomerate that's intent on maximizing profits to go their own way.
> 
> Provide great value for money with unique designs powered by sourced Sellita movements
> Develop higher end calibres that are unique and not just knockoffs or copies of existing movements.
> Put those higher end calibres in watches that are still great value for money but provide something unique in that slightly higher end bracket.
> For example, yes, you can get a skeletonized watch like the propilot 115, but you'll pay a hell of a lot more
> 
> The thing that makes me laugh is still hearing people say "Looks great, but it's still an Oris". Not even sure what that means any more. Take away the brand name and say "skeletonized in-house movement with 10 day power reserve and titanium case from a swiss brand with 100 years of history" and people would be all over it. The fact that Oris is doing all this while still being independent give them even more credibility in my eyes.


Wow, nice write up. Agreed


----------



## Jeff Scott

ofted42 said:


> Probably hard to tell until someone pulls one of these apart. I'll definitely be interested to see what it looks like. If I grab one it'll be tough not to take out the screwdrivers and go look..... which sometimes has not ended well.


We know you'll take one on the chin for us! 😀


----------



## MisterV

ofted42 said:


> I don't know, I really like what they're doing with their new manual wind calibres in that lineup. An Artelier Calibre 112 in blue/gray has become my dream watch for work.
> ....
> 
> In general I really like what Oris is doing and I think they're definitely going in the right direction with their business philosophy. They're independent, have a great history, and they're using the fact that they're not beholden to a huge conglomerate that's intent on maximizing profits to go their own way.


Let me put it this way. They seem to try to embrace the higher end minimalism of, let's say, JLC. The trouble is, they don't have the look and feel of a JLC - I don't know whether it lies in their choice of materials, finishing, or something else...
I'm not saying they should go outlandish or pseudo-fancy (like Maurice Lacroix or something), but maybe up the game on finishing?
I mean, if I get a watch for X thousand - whether it's 2 or 5 - it's an emotional purchase, I want it to be exciting. Right now, it's kind of like my Mazda, which I chose with the rather low standard of "it's practical and not ugly", vs a BMW. Yeah, they might be technically the same thing, but (maybe due to material quality?..) the feel is different. But then again, if Mazda made something that's as good as the BMW at a somewhat lower price, I would have absolutely no qualms about buying one, since Mazda (or Oris) do not have negative connotations for me - it's only the execution that matters. Sorry for the stereotypical car analogy.

So if Oris pushed up a bit and offered nearly JLC or GO-level stuff at 3-4K, or I don't know, supplied the mechanism to higher-end microbrands, that might be really interesting. Then again, this is purely a personal opinion, since I am generally not a fan of minimalism - unless it's Laurent Ferrier.

I also can't fault what you're saying about their business policy. Their diver range is a fantastically solid proposition. Only the dressy pieces to me look... really plain, like their designers have always been doing only sporty stuff and are timidly looking up "modern minimalism" inspirations. Feels like they could get a lot more out of them. If they really want to stay minimalistic, fine, why not develop a new kind of subdued fumé, sunburst, inky black, metallic texture, new modern hand shape... something, just something that is immediately recognizable as their own?



Mr.Jones82 said:


> Agree on most of the Arteliers. I bought one and the handset looked like it had been cut with a can opener. I love Oris, but they need to narrow their lineup down a bit or rethink it. The Artix, Artelier, Classic, BC3, TT1, and Williams seem to dilute the catalogue quite a bit in my opinion. I think they could trim it down a bit to make a stronger, more consistent set of designs.


Yeah, I think the confusion of the in-house vs ordinary Artelier vs Artix etc doesn't help.


----------



## ofted42

I see where you're coming from, and not having held one of their higher end Arteliers I should probably wait before giving my final verdict. I like the look, but sometimes in-person can feel different. Your comment about branching out a bit with the dress watches is a good one. Their music series of Artelier watches I think are their best designs in that lineup, with some interesting faces and hands, etc. Sort of doing what you said about being recognizable but still minimalistic. Their James Morrison Academy of Music limited edition is probably one of my favorites.










Funny that you mentioned Mazda, I almost said in my last post that Oris to me is like the Mazda of the watch world. Small company that is trying to punch up and doing something fairly unique at the same time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I always like a plucky underdog.


----------



## davidevo

ofted42 said:


> I see where you're coming from, and not having held one of their higher end Arteliers I should probably wait before giving my final verdict. I like the look, but sometimes in-person can feel different. Your comment about branching out a bit with the dress watches is a good one. Their music series of Artelier watches I think are their best designs in that lineup, with some interesting faces and hands, etc. Sort of doing what you said about being recognizable but still minimalistic. Their James Morrison Academy of Music limited edition is probably one of my favorites.
> 
> View attachment 15504546
> 
> 
> Funny that you mentioned Mazda, I almost said in my last post that Oris to me is like the Mazda of the watch world. Small company that is trying to punch up and doing something fairly unique at the same time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I always like a plucky underdog.


An under-loved watch if ever there was!


----------



## Mr.Jones82

ofted42 said:


> I see where you're coming from, and not having held one of their higher end Arteliers I should probably wait before giving my final verdict. I like the look, but sometimes in-person can feel different. Your comment about branching out a bit with the dress watches is a good one. Their music series of Artelier watches I think are their best designs in that lineup, with some interesting faces and hands, etc. Sort of doing what you said about being recognizable but still minimalistic. Their James Morrison Academy of Music limited edition is probably one of my favorites.
> 
> View attachment 15504546
> 
> 
> Funny that you mentioned Mazda, I almost said in my last post that Oris to me is like the Mazda of the watch world. Small company that is trying to punch up and doing something fairly unique at the same time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I always like a plucky underdog.


Forgot about the music series. Absolutely agree. I think it is one of their best.


----------



## Yukoner1

MisterV said:


> Only the dressy pieces to me look... really plain, like their designers have always been doing only sporty stuff and are timidly looking up "modern minimalism" inspirations. Feels like they could get a lot more out of them. If they really want to stay minimalistic, fine, why not develop a new kind of subdued fumé, sunburst, inky black, metallic texture, new modern hand shape... something, just something that is immediately recognizable as their own?


I don't disagree per se - the "dressy" watches don't have anything that scream "DAMN" to me either. My wife's Artelier Date Diamonds is in this category. That being said, there's a fine balance to have between clean, quiet dressy, and so loud that it's cool as hell but not really appropriate dressy anymore. However, I would agree that Oris could go a bit more "outside the box" with the dressy designs.


----------



## MisterV

ofted42 said:


> Funny that you mentioned Mazda, I almost said in my last post that Oris to me is like the Mazda of the watch world. Small company that is trying to punch up and doing something fairly unique at the same time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I always like a plucky underdog.


Yes, but you know what the biggest difference with Mazda is? The design language of the latter is nice and instantly recognizable (starting from 2013ish). Let me put it this way - I wish they were a bit more like Mazda in that sense. I get that corners need to be cut, and I don't expect blued screws.

I keep forgetting about the music series as well! I think they could really be something cool if they paid the same attention to it as the LE divers (the bronze Brashear...etc).


----------



## Gray_Panther

Excited for this release. Once my mortgage is paid off I am sure I will pick up another Oris with this movement. Hopefully an Aquis!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## commanche

Lurking here hoping to see leaked news/image of the watch with this new movement :/


----------



## nonfatproduct

commanche said:


> Lurking here hoping to see leaked news/image of the watch with this new movement :/


If only that would happen. I can't wait to see what they put this new movement in and at what price point they place it.


----------



## Overwound

Exciting news! I hope this turns out to be a solid and reliable movement. Looking forward to seeing what comes of this.


----------



## dorningarts

nonfatproduct said:


> If only that would happen. I can't wait to see what they put this new movement in and at what price point they place it.


there is a leaked image on the Oris watch club facebook page, it is an Aquis with the new movement, blue dial and blue bezel, not sure the size , looks 43.5


----------



## dorningarts

dorningarts said:


> there is a leaked image on the Oris watch club facebook page, it is an Aquis with the new movement, blue dial and blue bezel, not sure the size , looks 43.5


I just went to get the screenshot to show, but the whole thing has been removed


----------



## nonfatproduct

dorningarts said:


> there is a leaked image on the Oris watch club facebook page, it is an Aquis with the new movement, blue dial and blue bezel, not sure the size , looks 43.5





dorningarts said:


> I just went to get the screenshot to show, but the whole thing has been removed


Bummer about the picture being removed. Hopefully Oris themselves announce something soon. An Aquis has been speculated since them movement was announced although I'd prefer the 41mm case over the 43mm.


----------



## dorningarts

nonfatproduct said:


> Bummer about the picture being removed. Hopefully Oris themselves announce something soon. An Aquis has been speculated since them movement was announced although I'd prefer the 41mm case over the 43mm.


41 would be great. When it was up someone in the comments said they were not supposed to show it until the 28th, so I think that may be the release date. The dial looked exactly like the current one except it says "5 days" under the 300 meters line


----------



## nonfatproduct

dorningarts said:


> 41 would be great. When it was up someone in the comments said they were not supposed to show it until the 28th, so I think that may be the release date. The dial looked exactly like the current one except it says "5 days" under the 300 meters line


I have been so close to pulling the trigger on an Aquis to join my Diver Sixty Five and I'm glad that I've waited.


----------



## projekt-h

This looks pretty great. As with everyone else, waiting for the details 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vijay

Oris: Coming up for air (2020)

Guys save the date. The first watch with the new movement is going to be released on 29th Oct. 🙂


----------



## Yukoner1

​



*Coming up for air*



Oris is about to introduce the first watch powered by the game-changing Calibre 400



Earlier this month, we announced Oris Calibre 400, a highly resistant automatic movement with a five-day power reserve and a 10-year warranty. It was created by our in-house watchmakers and engineers, and it's set the new standard for Swiss Made automatic mechanical movements.

But a mechanical movement needs a watch.

In a few days' time, Calibre 400 will find its first home. The countdown has begun&#8230;



​







*Save the date
29 October, 2pm CET*


----------



## kritameth

Definitely interested, assuming it's not priced obscenely.


----------



## nonfatproduct

dorningarts said:


> 41 would be great. When it was up someone in the comments said they were not supposed to show it until the 28th, so I think that may be the release date. The dial looked exactly like the current one except it says "5 days" under the 300 meters line


based on the email I just got and the statement "coming up for air" I believe you are right about an Aquis release.



kritameth said:


> Definitely interested, assuming it's not priced obscenely.


Everything from Oris so far has been about the Cal400 movement being a workhorse for the common buyer. I imagine they charge a bit more over the previous ETA based movements but if the promotional material is to be believed there shouldn't be a crazy price jump over current models.


----------



## dorningarts

nonfatproduct said:


> based on the email I just got and the statement "coming up for air" I believe you are right about an Aquis release.
> 
> Everything from Oris so far has been about the Cal400 movement being a workhorse for the common buyer. I imagine they charge a bit more over the previous ETA based movements but if the promotional material is to be believed there shouldn't be a crazy price jump over current models.


I am looking forward to seeing if I saw the real deal, or someone photoshopped a fake. I am pretty sure it was real, they showed the watch in hand and showed the back with the movement as well. I am really interested in what Oris is doing


----------



## hgercek

Someone posted this on facebook and it got deleted immediately. I managed to get a screenshot though.


----------



## munichblue

Who knows.... ?


----------



## bigjaymofo

According to this Watchtime article it's a 30% increase in price for the new movement, a price I would gladly pay...

Oris is Showcasing a New Movement at WatchTime Live. Here's Why It Matters

i just hope they come out with something completely new for this movement and don't just stick it in an Aquis.


----------



## munichblue

bigjaymofo said:


> ...
> 
> i just hope they come out with something completely new for this movement and don't just stick it in an Aquis.


You'll be glad and disappointed at the same times.


----------



## nonfatproduct

so maybe an Aquis but less than a 30% price hike. speculation can be fun. I fell in love with Oris after getting my Sixty Five in 40mm and after waiting a year or so, looking at several different Aquis' and never pulling the trigger, what's another week to wait for the release.


----------



## dorningarts

hgercek said:


> Someone posted this on facebook and it got deleted immediately. I managed to get a screenshot though.
> 
> View attachment 15514242


I saw this as well, but when I came back to the page it was gone. It looks like the real deal


----------



## WillMK5

dorningarts said:


> 41 would be great. When it was up someone in the comments said they were not supposed to show it until the 28th, so I think that may be the release date. The dial looked exactly like the current one except it says "5 days" under the 300 meters line


I also believe the 41 would be perfect. I assume (hope) that this movement will make its way to the entire lineup eventually.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gto05z

a new interchange strap system is coming with it


----------



## Yukoner1

FYI for anyone interested. This was a panel discussion at WatchTime Live conference today. One of the panelists was VJ Geronimo - CEO North America - Oris, and he spoke on the new Calibre 400 movement. For those interested in the "price point", you may want to listen to this (it's only 2min long):



https://sndup.net/98jw/Record-003.wav


----------



## Mr.Jones82

I'm still kind of astounded by all of this. 10 year service interval and 10 year warranty? Wow, talk about busting onto the modern day in-house scene like the Kool-Aid man. But...toolless adjustable bracelet? Oris makes some of the best bracelets in the biz at their price, but they could just clobber everyone including brands upmarket (Omega...) if they'd upgrade their clasps to that.


----------



## dfwcowboy

More than twice the anti-magnetic properties of a Milgauss, 5 day power reserve, 10 year warranty. What’s not to like?


----------



## snikerdewdle

Yup, I'll be picking one of these up as soon as I get home if they can keep the price under $3000. Hoping they release this in a turquoise color similar to the clean ocean models from last year, or with a tungsten bezel, either one would be great. I love the integrated lugs and the OEM rubber strap is killer, so being able to quickly swap between the two will make this the perfect summer/vacation watch.


----------



## TechGuyJ

So the question is...

Does this replace a Selitta in an existing line, or is this going into a brand new watch?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## snikerdewdle

TechGuyJ said:


> So the question is...
> 
> Does this replace a Selitta in an existing line, or is this going into a brand new watch?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The article on WatchTime that @bigjaymofo posted above goes into more detail, but Oris will still be releasing their old designs with the Sellita movements as well as the Caliber 400 going forward. Not sure if they will come out with a whole new line though.


----------



## Yukoner1

TechGuyJ said:


> So the question is...
> 
> Does this replace a Selitta in an existing line, or is this going into a brand new watch?


I posted an audio clip of an interview with Oris USA's CEO. It gives some context to this question.


----------



## projekt-h

Minority opinion, if they put it in a ChronOris, I’m probably close to sold. 

Also more speculation, maybe this’ll be the time when they come out with a Great Lakes edition Aquis they’ve been asked for and vaguely responded to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LosAngelesTimer

I'm not a fan of the Aquis. Can't wait for the new movement to migrate to other models. I'd definitely consider a Chronoris, D65 or perhaps a new take on the Propilot with this movement.

Exciting stuff!


----------



## keerola

I hope this finds its way to BCPD or sixty-five. Green dial and i'm sold!


----------



## Archer

ofted42 said:


> Yeah, as a mechanical engineer I have trouble with the claim that a stud through a lubricated sleeve involves less wear and tear than a bearing system. Although a lubricated sleeve can be more robust in extreme applications, you typically don't see it in applications that required extremely low resistance and are fairly clean.
> 
> - snip -
> 
> Now that everyone's lost interest, gist of it is it seems like a solution for something that's not a problem. The loads and speeds are so low I have trouble believing it was a common failure point. You hear about bearings wearing out in other parts of the watch but typically not the rotor. Guess we'll see what happens.


As a mechanical engineer and watchmaker, I can shed some light on this issue. Bearing in rotors are a common failure point, however it happens regardless of the type of bearing. Here is an example of a steel ball bearing showing the amount of play with the worn bearing, and then a new bearing:






This "new" Oris system appears to be a plain bearing system, and of course this is not new at all. They don't really give you any details on the materials, so it's difficult to know if there is anything even remotely innovative here, but if there was they would be saying something about it. So if you look at many vintage watches that use this system, Omega would use a steel post in a bronze bushing in the 470-500, 550, 1000, and 1010 series. Before that in the old bumpers they used a steel axle in a corundum (ruby) jewel, and Rolex used a similar system for many decades. Right now the 8500/8900 calibers use a steel axle in a zirconium oxide jewel. These systems wear as well, so here's a video showing the play in a worn plain bearing system:






So this Oris design isn't anything special in that regard that I can see. The use of the clip isn't new either, as old Tissot and Omega movements used them, some old A. Schild movements, and Rolex uses this as well although it's on the underside of the rotor where you can't see it.

So as with many things in watchmaking, what's old is new again! All of these systems, including steel ball bearings or ceramic ball bearings, have their advantages and drawbacks. Typically the harder materials will cause wear on the softer materials, so for example the bronze bushes in the Omegas will wear and not the axle, and these bushes are easily replaced. The bushing on this 550 series includes a pinion gear that transmits the energy:



Friction fitted, so the old one presses out using a Horia jewelling tool:





New pinion is pressed in:





Omega leaves the ID undersized so that the bushing can be reamed to fit the axle precisely:





In the Rolex, the steel axle will wear and that is a riveted in place in the rotor, so you have to break the old axle out by snapping the rivet. It's not a great system, as the process of breaking out the rivet can damage the hole in the rotor, making the fitting of a new axle difficult and in effect limiting the number of times this can be done. Worn axle:



Staking set:



Punching the old axle out:





New axle:



Special punch for riveting the new axle:



Riveting in place:



For a ball bearing, the replacement is even easier*:



The rotor is placed into a holder:



I key is used the rotate a retaining clip 90 degrees so it can be removed:





The bearing is held in by the clip:



You then place the new bearing in the holder, place the rotor on top, and install the clip:



Some rotor bearings, like on the ETA 2824-2, are press fitted into the rotor, so no key is required. Those are probably the easiest to change.

* The real key is if the design allows you to replace just the worn part, or if it requires you to replace the entire rotor. There is a mix out there even within the same brand, so for Omega on some calibers the worn parts are easy to replace, and on some the entire rotor has to be replaced. The new Rolex ball bearing rotors don't have the capability to replace the bearing either, and many other makers are the same as well.

So does this design solve any problems? No, not likely because no matter what something is going to wear.

Cheers, Al


----------



## ofted42

Wow, fantastic write up and details, thanks! It seems to back up what I was thinking, in that there's advantages and disadvantages to both and it all depends on how it's implemented. We'll hope Oris did their homework and selected their lubricants/materials correctly and it ends up being a robust, trouble free movement that's easy to service. 

Are you planning on looking into what it would take to service this new movement? I apologize for my ignorance on this one, I know your name from many forum posts but have never looked in to what types of watches you work on nowadays.


----------



## Yukoner1

​





*Power play*



What if your watch could pass 'the weekday test'?



You may have heard of 'the weekend test'. Mechanical watches with three-day power reserves usually pass it. Take your watch off on Friday, and it'll still be running on Monday.

But what if your watch is for the weekend, and you take it off during the week?

Oris Calibre 400 has a five-day power reserve, so if you take off an Oris watch powered by it on Sunday evening, it'll still be running when you put it back on after work on Friday.

Ready for the weekend. Ready for adventure.



​







*Save the date
29 October, 2pm CET*


----------



## RadTime11

That video pretty much confirms it's an Aquis.


----------



## ofted42

Yep, just watched it this morning. Unless they're starting a new line of dive watches, sure looks like an Aquis. My poor wallet.










Looks like the numbers are engraved. There's another shot that shows lugs similar to what we know today, so if anyone was hoping for standard straps looks like that's out. Face looks blue in a few of the brief shots too, dammit. My only hope was that this thing turned out to be ugly.


----------



## WillMK5

I’m hoping this new movement is added to multiple sizes and not just the largest aquis. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chopy_ro

I've seen the bear, i've seen it !
Hopefully this movement will be a sturdy "don't poke the bear" movement. I'm glad to see more and more companies are developing inhouse movements, wich is somehow the right thing to do, given the upcoming ETA ban...


----------



## Yukoner1

I made a separate thread about this, but here is the video from the discussion on the new movement from Oris NA's CEO.


----------



## Archer

ofted42 said:


> Wow, fantastic write up and details, thanks! It seems to back up what I was thinking, in that there's advantages and disadvantages to both and it all depends on how it's implemented. We'll hope Oris did their homework and selected their lubricants/materials correctly and it ends up being a robust, trouble free movement that's easy to service.
> 
> Are you planning on looking into what it would take to service this new movement? I apologize for my ignorance on this one, I know your name from many forum posts but have never looked in to what types of watches you work on nowadays.


Glad you found it helpful.

There was a time when I serviced a lot of Oris watches (back in the Friends Of Oris Forum days, if anyone remembers that forum), but when they switched distributors, all parts access was cut off.

So unless Oris changes their spare parts policies to allow independent watchmakers access to them, that won't happen.

Cheers, Al


----------



## ofted42

Ah, got it. So unless you're an authorized repair center or distributor you won't be able to get parts. Seems like a shame, but definitely not unusual.


----------



## munichblue

ofted42 said:


> ...My only hope was that this thing turned out to be ugly.


You have no chance, all hope is over.


----------



## Archer

ofted42 said:


> Ah, got it. So unless you're an authorized repair center or distributor you won't be able to get parts. Seems like a shame, but definitely not unusual.


As far as I know, there's no path to become authorized, as there is for other brands. In fact I used to get parts for these watches from the distributor in NY state, but when they changed the distribution and repair provider a number of years ago, parts were cut off.


----------



## steelcityfishanddive

2 more days.


----------



## commanche

so far there is only leak of Aquis sporting this new movement yer?


----------



## ofted42

Archer said:


> As far as I know, there's no path to become authorized, as there is for other brands. In fact I used to get parts for these watches from the distributor in NY state, but when they changed the distribution and repair provider a number of years ago, parts were cut off.


Interesting, I didn't know that. Seems odd that they wouldn't even provide a path to become one if you were interested. Since they're a smaller manufacturer, might it have something to do with lack of resources for training? Obviously you wouldn't need it, but they'd have to have something in place for those that do. I wonder if they figured this was the easier route for now. It's a shame, hopefully they change that at some point in the future.


----------



## heb

I like the adjustment system. An amateur can do it.


----------



## Jeff Scott

commanche said:


> so far there is only *leak of Aquis* sporting this new movement yer?


Hopefully this Aquis wont leak!


----------



## Viper98912

I've seen pictures of the new one over a week ago, and not from the internet. I feel a social responsibility to want to tell all us Oris fans, but at the same a social responsibility to not say anything! Best secret ever (for a couple weeks...)


----------



## hgercek

Viper98912 said:


> I've seen pictures of the new one over a week ago, and not from the internet. I feel a social responsibility to want to tell all us Oris fans, but at the same a social responsibility to not say anything! Best secret ever (for a couple weeks...)


I have seen the pictures. I even posted it here but it got deleted  It is the exact same aquis except that it has blue dial and blue bezel and it has a quick release button for the bracelet. I am just curious about what the price will be.


----------



## WillMK5

Do you happen to know the size?


----------



## hgercek

WillMK5 said:


> Do you happen to know the size?


No, but it is rumored to be 43.5mm.


----------



## WillMK5

hgercek said:


> No, but it is rumored to be 43.5mm.


I kind of assumed it would be that size. I hope this new movement eventually makes it way into the other Aquis sizes as well.


----------



## Yukoner1

​



*Long life comes as standard*



Watches powered by Oris Calibre 400 come with a full 10-year warranty



Ten years is a long time. Particularly for a mechanical watch that beats 28,800 times an hour. Every hour. Of every day. That's more than two and a half billion beats a decade.

We're so confident in the mechanics of the new Oris Calibre 400 that we're offering a full 10-year warranty on any watch it powers. And that's not all. We're also recommending 10-year service intervals.

Tomorrow, we'll be introducing the world's first watch powered by Oris Calibre 400.

A new watch. The new standard.



​







*Save the date Tomorrow, 2pm CET*


----------



## JJ312

hgercek said:


> No, but it is rumored to be 43.5mm.


Yea, really hoping it goes in the 41.5mm soon.


----------



## ofted42

hgercek said:


> I have seen the pictures. I even posted it here but it got deleted  It is the exact same aquis except that it has blue dial and blue bezel and it has a quick release button for the bracelet. I am just curious about what the price will be.


If that's true I have to confess to being a bit disappointed. Something this momentous I was hoping for a limited edition of some sort, with maybe a face/bezel color that we haven't seen before. Guess we'll find out tomorow!


----------



## WillMK5

ofted42 said:


> If that's true I have to confess to being a bit disappointed. Something this momentous I was hoping for a limited edition of some sort, with maybe a face/bezel color that we haven't seen before. Guess we'll find out tomorow!


I understand that disappointment. I'm hoping that this makes it's way into more Aquis models as some of the better ones are the limited versions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Viper98912

That last video is pretty telling


----------



## Pilliam

I held this watch yesterday at my AD, and it's impressive. They're not allowed to sell it until later today (10/29). It is indeed a 43.5mm and looks almost identical to the most recent Aquis 43.5; however the blue dial has an even greater sunburst than the current model (hard to believe, I know, because the "normal" Aquis already has a killer sunburst).

The movement is gorgeous, and expansive by comparison to the red rotor because it takes up the entire caseback and is far more intricate. I won't be buying because I have the most recent version; although I would purchase if I didn't have it. Like you all, my hope is that it makes its way into other models within the brand.


----------



## steelcityfishanddive

Did you get a price?


----------



## nonfatproduct

Today is the day Oris lifts the veil on this one!!!


----------



## projekt-h

Hodinkee might have sent their email a little earlier than they should have, since I don’t think anything was supposed to be announced until 2pm CET

$3300 on rubber, $3500 on the bracelet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nonfatproduct

pojekt-h said:


> Hodinkee might have sent their email a little earlier than they should have, since I don't think anything was supposed to be announced until 2pm CET
> 
> $3300 on rubber, $3500 on the bracelet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$3500 is a very nice price and the only thing stopping me from trying to get one is the size. I'm really hoping for a 41.5mm release


----------



## dorningarts

nonfatproduct said:


> $3500 is a very nice price and the only thing stopping me from trying to get one is the size. I'm really hoping for a 41.5mm release


I have a feeling it is only a matter of time, the 41.5 seems to be a big hit


----------



## davidevo

Introducing: The Oris Aquis Date Caliber 400 (Live Pics & Pricing)


When in-house hits a little closer to home.




www.hodinkee.com





Gorgeous - just a shame about the size!!


----------



## munichblue




----------



## kritameth

davidevo said:


> Introducing: The Oris Aquis Date Caliber 400 (Live Pics & Pricing)
> 
> 
> When in-house hits a little closer to home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hodinkee.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gorgeous - just a shame about the size!!


The Aquis wears quite small, so for me that's a great size, especially since it's a diver, and my wrist is a modest 7 1/8".


----------



## Yukoner1

​



*Introducing the Oris Aquis Date Calibre 400*



The iconic Aquis Date diver's watch gets powered up by Oris Calibre 400



*Power play*

Here it is. The first watch powered by the groundbreaking Oris Calibre 400.

The Oris Aquis Date Calibre 400 is a high-performance diver's watch with a stainless steel case and bracelet (now with Oris's new Quick Strap Change system), 30 bar (300 metres) of water resistance and a uni-directional rotating bezel with a ceramic insert.













*The new standard*

Inside it is the new Oris Calibre 400, an automatic mechanical movement with elevated levels of anti-magnetism, a five-day power reserve and a 10-year warranty.

The Oris Aquis Date Calibre 400. The new diver's watch standard.







Order now​


----------



## Robotaz

Kinda funny reading these armchair watch engineer opinions on the rotor. I guess Oris put a 10 year warranty on something that’s stupid and won’t work. lol


----------



## manofrolex

Robotaz said:


> Kinda funny reading these armchair watch engineer opinions on the rotor. I guess Oris put a 10 year warranty on something that's stupid and won't work. lol


Precisely but clearly time will tell.
imho it is a good move from Oris and for anyone that buys 1 watch wear the crap out of it and if anything happens movement wise within 10 years they deal w it . Good peace of mind .


----------



## Robotaz

jmanlay said:


> Precisely but clearly time will tell.
> imho it is a good move from Oris and for anyone that buys 1 watch wear the crap out of it and if anything happens movement wise within 10 years they deal w it . Good peace of mind .


I'm going to buy one...when I find a job. lol

But seriously, this has me itching to jump on. 10 years is practically worry-free and expense-free. Takes a huge load off the mind and encourages the purchase.


----------



## TechGuyJ

And just like that, Reddit & WUS get flooded with non-400 Aquis watches for cheap lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## steelcityfishanddive

Ha.


----------



## Archer

Robotaz said:


> Kinda funny reading these armchair watch engineer opinions on the rotor. I guess Oris put a 10 year warranty on something that's stupid and won't work. lol


As an engineer (and watchmaker) sitting in an armchair, I can say that it definitely will work. But as Oris are advertising this as a "solution to ball bearing wear" there's simply not enough details there to conclude that this is anything other than a rehash of a design that has been used for 60+ years...that's why we know it will work, because it's nothing new.

Warranties are a marketing thing, rather than an engineering thing...and with the price of this new watch they are covering the first service when you buy it.


----------



## Robotaz

Archer said:


> As an engineer (and watchmaker) sitting in an armchair, I can say that it definitely will work. But as Oris are advertising this as a "solution to ball bearing wear" there's simply not enough details there to conclude that this is anything other than a rehash of a design that has been used for 60+ years...that's why we know it will work, because it's nothing new.
> 
> Warranties are a marketing thing, rather than an engineering thing...and with the price of this new watch they are covering the first service when you buy it.


I'm an engineer and deal with production and warranties daily. That's why I laugh at the pseudo experts on here.

We shall see.


----------



## Archer

Robotaz said:


> I'm an engineer and deal with production and warranties daily. That's why I laugh at the pseudo experts on here.
> 
> We shall see.


So you believe that going back to a 60+ year old design is solving the problem of ball bearing wear, as Oris claims?


----------



## Yukoner1

Robotaz said:


> Kinda funny reading these armchair watch engineer opinions on the rotor. I guess Oris put a 10 year warranty on something that's stupid and won't work. lol


?‍♀


----------



## Robotaz

Archer said:


> So you believe that going back to a 60+ year old design is solving the problem of ball bearing wear, as Oris claims?


I trust engineers and technicians who are qualified to determine the robustness of what they are designing and testing. That's the world I come from and the reality is, it's a proven system of thinking and delivering. I don't just believe something based on the way it was or is.

My immediate thought on this rotor issue is that we are light years ahead in terms of materials science compared to where we were when ball bearing rotors were invented. For example, there are major wear items in high end watches that have no lubrication now.

Ball bearings distribute wear over a lot more surface area. If you don't have the same level of wear, who says you need it spread out over more parts? Using technology, they appear to have significantly reduced the number of parts used, and probably also the number of avenues for manufacturing error.

It's silly to go on and on over a watch rotor, for me anyway, so I'm done talking about it, but I trust Oris.


----------



## Archer

Robotaz said:


> I trust engineers and technicians who are qualified to determine the robustness of what they are designing and testing. That's the world I come from and the reality is, it's a proven system of thinking and delivering. I don't just believe something based on the way it was or is.
> 
> My immediate thought on this rotor issue is that we are light years ahead in terms of materials science compared to where we were when ball bearing rotors were invented. For example, there are major wear items in high end watches that have no lubrication now.


Well, I spent a couple of decades working as an engineer in a bearing company, so I think I speak with some knowledge on the subject of rolling element bearings, and also from the standpoint of a watchmaker who sees good and bad designs cross my bench regularly.

Certainly there are ball bearing used in watches that are far better than the original bearings that Eterna started using decades ago - many brands use ceramic ball bearings that last longer and don't require lubrication. JLC has been using them for quite a long time, and others like Omega and Rolex have followed suit.

As I've noted previously, plain bearing applications now use some of these same materials, so the Omega 8500/8900 use zirconium-oxide jewels, with a steel axle - but again, something is going to wear no matter what the materials are.



Robotaz said:


> Ball bearings distribute wear over a lot more surface area. If you don't have the same level of wear, who says you need it spread out over more parts? Using technology, they appear to have significantly reduced the number of parts used, and probably also the number of avenues for manufacturing error.


What do you mean by "if you don't have the same level of wear" in this context? If this assumes the materials are so much better or different than the designs I've already spoken of, do you have some sort of knowledge of the materials being used in this movement? If so, please elaborate.

Certainly a plain bearing uses fewer parts, so there's no doubt of that, but it's not a significant thing really. As I've demonstrated, changing a ball bearing (where the option is provided) is a very simple job.



Robotaz said:


> It's silly to go on and on over a watch rotor, for me anyway, so I'm done talking about it, but I trust Oris.


Watch forums discuss "silly" things all the time, so I don't see how this is any more silly than any other topic. From a pure engineering standpoint, it's an interesting choice to go back to a very old design. This was certainly a surprise when Omega did this with the 8500, however they had hired someone from another big watch company that used this design in all their watches at the time, so this was I think an influence from there. Subsequent movements went away from this design, and back to ball bearings, so the 9300 family, the 8800 family, etc. all use ceramic ball bearings.

As I noted in my original post, the marketing materials don't provide any real detail in order to look at things like relative hardness of the materials, coefficients of friction, or lubrication requirements, to fully understand what benefit this may provide, if any. It would be very unusual for a plain bearing set-up like this to run dry, so this likely requires oil just like all the other designs do. This means that over time as the oils dry out, this part will fail.

You must be a very trusting person. Knowing what I know about bearings and watches, when I see a claim such as "solving the ball bearing" problem, it certainly piques my interest, and raises some serious questions...

I know a watchmaker who worked at Rolex - when the company increased the warranty to 5 years, the had to add on extra staff to handle the influx of warranty repairs. He said the two big things they found were dry escapements, and worn rotor axles. Oris seems to have solved the escapement issue, but the axles I will remain skeptical of, mostly because little information has been provided.

Cheers, Al


----------



## Robotaz

Archer said:


> Well, I spent a couple of decades working as an engineer in a bearing company, so I think I speak with some knowledge on the subject of rolling element bearings, and also from the standpoint of a watchmaker who sees good and bad designs cross my bench regularly.
> 
> Certainly there are ball bearing used in watches that are far better than the original bearings that Eterna started using decades ago - many brands use ceramic ball bearings that last longer and don't require lubrication. JLC has been using them for quite a long time, and others like Omega and Rolex have followed suit.
> 
> As I've noted previously, plain bearing applications now use some of these same materials, so the Omega 8500/8900 use zirconium-oxide jewels, with a steel axle - but again, something is going to wear no matter what the materials are.
> 
> What do you mean by "if you don't have the same level of wear" in this context? If this assumes the materials are so much better or different than the designs I've already spoken of, do you have some sort of knowledge of the materials being used in this movement? If so, please elaborate.
> 
> Certainly a plain bearing uses fewer parts, so there's no doubt of that, but it's not a significant thing really. As I've demonstrated, changing a ball bearing (where the option is provided) is a very simple job.
> 
> Watch forums discuss "silly" things all the time, so I don't see how this is any more silly than any other topic. From a pure engineering standpoint, it's an interesting choice to go back to a very old design. This was certainly a surprise when Omega did this with the 8500, however they had hired someone from another big watch company that used this design in all their watches at the time, so this was I think an influence from there. Subsequent movements went away from this design, and back to ball bearings, so the 9300 family, the 8800 family, etc. all use ceramic ball bearings.
> 
> As I noted in my original post, the marketing materials don't provide any real detail in order to look at things like relative hardness of the materials, coefficients of friction, or lubrication requirements, to fully understand what benefit this may provide, if any. It would be very unusual for a plain bearing set-up like this to run dry, so this likely requires oil just like all the other designs do. This means that over time as the oils dry out, this part will fail.
> 
> You must be a very trusting person. Knowing what I know about bearings and watches, when I see a claim such as "solving the ball bearing" problem, it certainly piques my interest, and raises some serious questions...
> 
> I know a watchmaker who worked at Rolex - when the company increased the warranty to 5 years, the had to add on extra staff to handle the influx of warranty repairs. He said the two big things they found were dry escapements, and worn rotor axles. Oris seems to have solved the escapement issue, but the axles I will remain skeptical of, mostly because little information has been provided.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Sorry, this just doesn't interest me beyond the amusement of forum people thinking they know more than Oris. I really don't care what they put in their watches. And I thankfully just manage engineers and don't have to think about boring stuff like bearings anymore.

As I said, we shall see.


----------



## Archer

Robotaz said:


> Sorry, this just doesn't interest me beyond the amusement of forum people thinking they know more than Oris.


You've said this a couple of times. I don't recall anyone saying they knew more than Oris. Clearly not enough information has been given to assess the claims that Oris have made.

Also strange that you continue to go on about this, and claim not to be interested. If you are not interested, why bother?



Robotaz said:


> I really don't care what they put in their watches.


Interesting...but seems contrary to your comments here.

But have a nice day regardless.

Cheers, Al


----------



## manofrolex

Archer said:


> Well, I spent a couple of decades working as an engineer in a bearing company, so I think I speak with some knowledge on the subject of rolling element bearings, and also from the standpoint of a watchmaker who sees good and bad designs cross my bench regularly.
> 
> Certainly there are ball bearing used in watches that are far better than the original bearings that Eterna started using decades ago - many brands use ceramic ball bearings that last longer and don't require lubrication. JLC has been using them for quite a long time, and others like Omega and Rolex have followed suit.
> 
> As I've noted previously, plain bearing applications now use some of these same materials, so the Omega 8500/8900 use zirconium-oxide jewels, with a steel axle - but again, something is going to wear no matter what the materials are.
> 
> What do you mean by "if you don't have the same level of wear" in this context? If this assumes the materials are so much better or different than the designs I've already spoken of, do you have some sort of knowledge of the materials being used in this movement? If so, please elaborate.
> 
> Certainly a plain bearing uses fewer parts, so there's no doubt of that, but it's not a significant thing really. As I've demonstrated, changing a ball bearing (where the option is provided) is a very simple job.
> 
> Watch forums discuss "silly" things all the time, so I don't see how this is any more silly than any other topic. From a pure engineering standpoint, it's an interesting choice to go back to a very old design. This was certainly a surprise when Omega did this with the 8500, however they had hired someone from another big watch company that used this design in all their watches at the time, so this was I think an influence from there. Subsequent movements went away from this design, and back to ball bearings, so the 9300 family, the 8800 family, etc. all use ceramic ball bearings.
> 
> As I noted in my original post, the marketing materials don't provide any real detail in order to look at things like relative hardness of the materials, coefficients of friction, or lubrication requirements, to fully understand what benefit this may provide, if any. It would be very unusual for a plain bearing set-up like this to run dry, so this likely requires oil just like all the other designs do. This means that over time as the oils dry out, this part will fail.
> 
> You must be a very trusting person. Knowing what I know about bearings and watches, when I see a claim such as "solving the ball bearing" problem, it certainly piques my interest, and raises some serious questions...
> 
> I know a watchmaker who worked at Rolex - when the company increased the warranty to 5 years, the had to add on extra staff to handle the influx of warranty repairs. He said the two big things they found were dry escapements, and worn rotor axles. Oris seems to have solved the escapement issue, but the axles I will remain skeptical of, mostly because little information has been provided.
> 
> Cheers, Al


I would say just like the robot that i don't give a rat's how they manage to deal w a ball bearing free system and if they felt the sleeve worked for them then who cares really. from an end user stand point w a 10 year warranty why would I spend more than 3 mins thinking about it. If it fails they fix it if done .
From your perspective where everything is put under a microscope then fine but not many will care including watch nerds.


----------



## Archer

jmanlay said:


> I would say just like the robot that i don't give a rat's how they manage to deal w a ball bearing free system and if they felt the sleeve worked for them then who cares really. from an end user stand point w a 10 year warranty why would I spend more than 3 mins thinking about it. If it fails they fix it if done .
> From your perspective where everything is put under a microscope then fine but not many will care including watch nerds.


Not saying people have to care. But of course this issue was brought up specifically by "watch nerds" in this thread, which is why it's being talked about. They brought it up because Oris has claimed they have solved a big problem, so again if you are the type to believe marketing without question, then carry on.

For those of us who are interested in the details and the veracity of such claims, we can carry on too.

Note that you don't have to participate if you don't want to...


----------



## manofrolex

Archer said:


> Not saying people have to care. But of course this issue was brought up specifically by "watch nerds" in this thread, which is why it's being talked about. They brought it up because Oris has claimed they have solved a big problem, so again if you are the type to believe marketing without question, then carry on.
> 
> For those of us who are interested in the details and the veracity of such claims, we can carry on too.
> 
> Note that you don't have to participate if you don't want to...


There is a difference between believing the marketing mumbo jumbo and diving into minutia about rotors. Not saying one cannot do that and for one I actually am rather skeptical of a 10 year service free watch especially if used full time but I don't look at mechanical watches as marvel of cutting edge technologies either so a rotor using ball bearing in steel ceramic or using some sort of pivot greased up doesn't mean much to me. Again personal opinion but there is no reason to believe that Oris didn't do their homework to allow for the 10 year maintenance interval. I suspect ample testing and qc was done before they committed so while we do not have that data there is no reason for me to doubt their claim even though I might still be skeptical.


----------



## Archer

jmanlay said:


> There is a difference between believing the marketing mumbo jumbo and diving into minutia about rotors.


Yes, clearly. If you don't dive into the details, you can't understand the what the marketing mumbo jumbo means, and understand the potential advantages or disadvantages of various designs. Again if this is not your thing, that's fine - for others it very much is, which is why this discussion is happening.



jmanlay said:


> I actually am rather skeptical of a 10 year service free watch especially if used full time


Me too.


----------



## manofrolex

Archer said:


> Yes, clearly. If you don't dive into the details, you can't understand the what the marketing mumbo jumbo means, and understand the potential advantages or disadvantages of various designs. Again if this is not your thing, that's fine - for others it very much is, which is why this discussion is happening.
> 
> Me too.


Yea it takes a genius to figure out the difference between a ball bearing type system and a low friction slide bearing . I know you know your stuff but w all due respect this isn't rocket science.


----------



## Mr.Jones82

Is it a gimmick? Hard to tell currently, but I guess even if this isn’t anything new and not a solution as advertised, the 10 year warranty will put most people’s minds at ease. I guess they could have pulled an Omega and made something totally new, that offers no real solutions just further complications and the same old service interval. I suppose it is still unproven, but on paper it seems more reasonable than the Rube Goldberg device Omega put forth and cheaper (and yeah, I own an Omega).


----------



## Archer

jmanlay said:


> Yea it takes a genius to figure out the difference between a ball bearing type system and a low friction slide bearing . I know you know your stuff but w all due respect this isn't rocket science.


The difference is clear, but the devil is in the details.

You are correct that this isn't rocket science, despite the marketing spin Oris puts on this...that is pretty much the point I've been making all along. Good that you have caught up.


----------



## manofrolex

Archer said:


> The difference is clear, but the devil is in the details.
> 
> You are correct that this isn't rocket science, despite the marketing spin Oris puts on this...that is pretty much the point I've been making all along. Good that you have caught up.


Yes your wisdom helped me through it since I clearly could not for the life of me read . Yet , the answer on my end is still the same , I still don't care what system they use and as long as Oris stands by their product then fine by me. Clearly as you have demonstrated from a servicing perspective some designs are better than others but from an end user pov it doesn't mean anything except If Oris doesn't stand by its product and if they don't then they will reap consequences .


----------



## Archer

jmanlay said:


> Yes your wisdom helped me through it since I clearly could not for the life of me read . Yet , the answer on my end is still the same , I still don't care what system they use and as long as Oris stands by their product then fine by me. Clearly as you have demonstrated from a servicing perspective some designs are better than others but from an end user pov it doesn't mean anything except If Oris doesn't stand by its product and if they don't then they will reap consequences .


Some of the consequences are priced in from the start of course. The ability to attract new buyers with claims of 10 year service intervals and warranties is where the money is. That's why those things are not really about the movement.


----------



## 6R35

TechGuyJ said:


> And just like that, Reddit & WUS get flooded with non-400 Aquis watches for cheap lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Let's hope so!


----------



## munichblue

Back on topic....  What a colour!


----------



## keerola

Any idea if this caliber is going to find its way to 65 divers?


----------



## manofrolex

Archer said:


> Some of the consequences are priced in from the start of course. The ability to attract new buyers with claims of 10 year service intervals and warranties is where the money is. That's why those things are not really about the movement.


Don't disagree w you on this one .


----------



## ofted42

Seems like there's quite a few here missing the point. Of course there are many who won't care what's in it and why, but why should that prevent those of us who are curious and want to know more from discussing it? I think this is a forum, right? Don't recall anyone saying "Oris is a pack of idiots", but it wouldn't be the first time a company has taken something old, repackaged it with some upgrades, and called it a breakthrough. And if it is something new and amazing, I'd like to know what.

Either way, trying to understand how something works is why I became an engineer in the first place and I love hearing from others with more experience on these topics. If that's not your cup of tea, great, plenty of other threads to read.


----------



## Yukoner1

🍿 (this is popcorn, right ?) lol


----------



## manofrolex

Yukoner1 said:


> (this is popcorn, right ?) lol


----------



## Viper98912

I wish everyone would get back on topic and all the irrelevant posts deleted...

Back on topic:

I hope the new movement is capable of having the "center date ring" as some of the special editions have (like the source of life). I love this setup with the center date ring (or center gmt ring); it's what really makes the watches different than what's out there. Give me a source of life with the new movement and a sapphire back and I'm sold.

I also think the price point is right on target - given that their caliber 11x's are at least $5k, I think the low-to-mid $3000 price tag (up from the low-to-mid $2000 price tag for sellita) is right on point. I was definitely worried they were going to price it above $5k like the 11x's.


----------



## dfwcowboy

Those who are convinced this isn't going to be a hit for Oris must not have been paying attention when Omega fielded the co-axial escapement or when Seiko developed the spring drive. Innovation is a good thing not just for the innovator, but for the entire industry. It proves horological advances are still relevant and valued.


----------



## munichblue

Viper98912 said:


> I wish everyone would get back on topic and all the irrelevant posts deleted...
> 
> Back on topic:
> 
> I hope the new movement is capable of having the "center date ring" as some of the special editions have (like the source of life). I love this setup with the center date ring (or center gmt ring); it's what really makes the watches different than what's out there. Give me a source of life with the new movement and a sapphire back and I'm sold.
> 
> I also think the price point is right on target - given that their caliber 11x's are at least $5k, I think the low-to-mid $3000 price tag (up from the low-to-mid $2000 price tag for sellita) is right on point. I was definitely worried they were going to price it above $5k like the 11x's.


I'm quite sure we'll see a lot of variations and more complications based on the Calibre 400 in the future. I'm really curious if they bring modifications first or put the movement into other Oris models (65, Big Crown).


----------



## yokied

Anyone else wonder about whether Seiko, Swatch, Rolex and possibly others have this tech? It does seem a little strange that Oris has just bolted out of the clear blue sky with this, given that their range has hinged on Sellitas until now.


----------



## Archer

yokied said:


> Anyone else wonder about whether Seiko, Swatch, Rolex and possibly others have this tech? It does seem a little strange that Oris has just bolted out of the clear blue sky with this, given that their range has hinged on Sellitas until now.


What "tech" are you referring to specifically?

In terms of innovation, there's nothing in this movement that I can see that hasn't been done by others.

Long power reserves have been done by others.

Twin barrels have been done by others.

Silicon balance springs have been done by others.

Non-magnetic escapement parts have been done by others.

Plain bearing on the rotor has been done by others.

With the exception of the 5 day power reserve, you can get all these features in an Omega 8900. The Oris is rated to 2250 Gauss - Omega's METAS calibers are rated to 15,000 Gauss.

The one thing I don't see in any of the material related to this caliber, is any sort of timing tolerances. It doesn't appear to be COSC certified, so it would be interesting to see what Oris will spec for the timing tolerances of this new movement. The only time it's mentioned that I have seen, is when they talk about the deviation inside the magnetic field, but from a more practical standpoint, what the tolerances for daily average rate and the positional variation, will be more relevant to most people.

Cheers, Al


----------



## Yukoner1

dfwcowboy said:


> Those who are convinced this isn't going to be a hit for Oris must not have been paying attention when Omega fielded the co-axial escapement or when Seiko developed the spring drive. Innovation is a good thing not just for the innovator, but for the entire industry. It proves horological advances are still relevant and valued.


_nods in agreement_



munichblue said:


> I'm quite sure we'll see a lot of variations and more complications based on the Calibre 400 in the future. I'm really curious if they bring modifications first or put the movement into other Oris models (65, Big Crown).


I'm fully expecting to see a Sixty-Five with this movement soon. This is going to be a "workhorse" movement for Oris, IMO. And, as such, I do believe we will continue to see the Calibre 111 to 115 be used as well.



Archer said:


> The one thing I don't see in any of the material related to this caliber, is any sort of timing tolerances. It doesn't appear to be COSC certified, so it would be interesting to see what Oris will spec for the timing tolerances of this new movement.


North American Oris CEO VJ Geronimo actually spoke to this at WatchTime Live. Fast forward to 23:00 minutes into this video (I've actually posted this video a number of times and no one seems to want to watch it for some reason):


----------



## mattf301

On a Blue Rubber Strap...Just Picked it up today.


----------



## James_

What's the rotor wobble like? As bad as the Miyota 9015?


----------



## steelcityfishanddive

That blue dial...


----------



## yokied

I went and tried it on at the AD. It’s a beautiful dial but wearability concerns have me considering further, especially given I’ve never even tried on an Oris before and the fact that they have smaller sizes in this line that will receive the movement at some point.

I was offered 17% off straight out of the gate without even bargaining.


----------



## James_

yokied said:


> I went and tried it on at the AD. It's a beautiful dial but wearability concerns have me considering further, especially given I've never even tried on an Oris before and the fact that they have smaller sizes in this line that will receive the movement at some point.
> 
> I was offered 17% off straight out of the gate without even bargaining.


Nice discount. Wearability would be an issue with me too. I bought the titanium Sellita version which wears very light and comfy.


----------



## GreatScott

Can someone do a side by side with a normal date window? I heard it's bigger but nobody is talking about that.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Archer

Yukoner1 said:


> North American Oris CEO VJ Geronimo actually spoke to this at WatchTime Live. Fast forward to 23:00 minutes into this video (I've actually posted this video a number of times and no one seems to want to watch it for some reason):


To be honest I started to watch it, but the video quality was so poor I wasn't going to sit through the whole thing. So thanks for telling me where it was.

So the daily average rate tolerance will be -3 to +5. I'm puzzled why this isn't written anywhere that I can find, and without knowing the other tolerances behind this range, it doesn't tell you a whole lot.


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## Archer

So I sent Oris a message asking about the new rotor design:

"The new caliber 400 uses a new system for the rotor with no ball bearing. Is this a simple plain bearing system? If so, what materials are used for the axle and the bushing that it rides in? What lubrication requirements are there for this design?

Cheers, Al"

The reply was less than clear...

"Hi Al,

Thank you for your email. For the anchors and wheels we chose silicon, while they are used for the axes of balance, anchor and wheel other non-ferrous materials. There are also about 30 more components that are made of non-ferrous materials."

So they didn't answer regarding the axle/bushing of the rotor.

I tried!


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## Benno1uk

Archer said:


> To be honest I started to watch it, but the video quality was so poor I wasn't going to sit through the whole thing. So thanks for telling me where it was.
> 
> So the daily average rate tolerance will be -3 to +5. I'm puzzled why this isn't written anywhere that I can find, and without knowing the other tolerances behind this range, it doesn't tell you a whole lot.


On the movement it says "Adjusted to five (5) positions". Presumably meaning it is calibrated. I think I read or heard somewhere that it is within COSC parameters, but Oris have decided not to officially get it certified to save on cost.


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## Archer

Benno1uk said:


> On the movement it says "Adjusted to five (5) positions". Presumably meaning it is calibrated. I think I read or heard somewhere that it is within COSC parameters, but Oris have decided not to officially get it certified to save on cost.


"Adjusted to 5 positions" doesn't indicate anything related to the actual tolerances.

The average daily rate tolerance is given in the video, but still not sure why it isn't published on the web site. Again if it's an improvement over other makers or previous Oris calibers, you would think they would be saying so, and loudly.


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## Sugman

Benno1uk said:


> On the movement it says "Adjusted to five (5) positions". Presumably meaning it is calibrated. I think I read or heard somewhere that it is within COSC parameters, but Oris have decided not to officially get it certified to save on cost.


From the marketing email I received from Oris:

The Oris Aquis Date Calibre 400 puts accuracy front and centre.

A new movement. The new standard.

It's highly accurate, to -3/+5 seconds a day, better than a chronometer.

What's more, it's still that accurate even after it's been exposed to elevated magnetic fields.


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## JustinMFrost

A lot of good points being raised here. We've reached out to Oris in hopes of getting a clearer picture of their regulation/testing procedures and standards to help answer all of this directly from the brand.


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## Yukoner1

Archer said:


> To be honest I started to watch it, but the video quality was so poor I wasn't going to sit through the whole thing. So thanks for telling me where it was.
> 
> So the daily average rate tolerance will be -3 to +5. I'm puzzled why this isn't written anywhere that I can find, and without knowing the other tolerances behind this range, it doesn't tell you a whole lot.


Yeahhhhhhh, I don't disagree with you that the video and audio quality was not ideal. But, yeah, that's what happens as we transition into the online meeting world 😅

My guess is that the general marketing doesn't have those figures included because most people don't care about them. Remember, we're WIS's. We care about these figures (or, at least, we pretend to care), where many consumers couldn't care less. I can see this in their marketing (I come from a large corporation, multi-region marketing background). They're promoting 3 things - 5 day power reserve, anti-magnetic and 10 year warranty. Three things, and if you look at all the marketing material (in print, website, social media, in-person AD, etc), it's ALL around those 3 main points. As you can see, none of those points is about accuracy. So, for whatever reason, Oris marketing has decided that accuracy is not how they want to market this movement. We can guess why this is, of course we'll never know unless someone in their marketing team tells us, but I would venture to say that they've analyzed their target market as not really caring about accuracy. And they've also determined that trying to compete in accuracy isn't going to work (my gut tells me that they think an accuracy argument is going to reel in their competition from Omega, which they calculated they won't win).

Anyways, point is, apparently it's a very accurate movement, even if it's not marketed as such 😊


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## ofted42

Archer said:


> So I sent Oris a message asking about the new rotor design:
> 
> "The new caliber 400 uses a new system for the rotor with no ball bearing. Is this a simple plain bearing system? If so, what materials are used for the axle and the bushing that it rides in? What lubrication requirements are there for this design?
> 
> Cheers, Al"
> 
> The reply was less than clear...
> 
> "Hi Al,
> 
> Thank you for your email. For the anchors and wheels we chose silicon, while they are used for the axes of balance, anchor and wheel other non-ferrous materials. There are also about 30 more components that are made of non-ferrous materials."
> 
> So they didn't answer regarding the axle/bushing of the rotor.
> 
> I tried!


Not too surprised, if it's a plain bearing system that's similar to other systems from the past (likely, as you mentioned), then the innovation would be in the material choice. Wonder if I could sneak one of these into the lab at work.... They probably wouldn't believe it came off a mining shovel though.


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## kritameth

Can't seem to find the other thread where people are reporting issues with the new caliber, but it doesn't sound like Oris have tested the movement enough?


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## JustinMFrost

kritameth said:


> Can't seem to find the other thread where people are reporting issues with the new caliber, but it doesn't sound like Oris have tested the movement enough?


Well... The observation of the minute hand that moves when coming in and out of hack-this is something that does happen with some movements, regardless of price point. a gentle touch when changing crown positions is all that it takes. People move really quick to critique is all I'm saying here. It's a new caliber, and new calibers can of course have some teething issues, but such is the case with the production of just about anything.


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## kritameth

JustinMFrost said:


> Well... The observation of the minute hand that moves when coming in and out of hack-this is something that does happen with some movements, regardless of price point. a gentle touch when changing crown positions is all that it takes. People move really quick to critique is all I'm saying here. It's a new caliber, and new calibers can of course have some teething issues, but such is the case with the production of just about anything.


Absolutely, I'm still excited about the release. Just disconcerting to hear about that, but more concerning for me are the PR issue and how Oris has been responding to customers' concerns. But I'm sure it'll be all up and up from here.


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## munichblue

I still don’t get it! What’s the issue? I can set my Oris Aquis Calibre 400 without jumping hands out of hack. Oris explained properly why and what to do. Don’t expect them to do any changes in their production.


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## Yukoner1

kritameth said:


> Just disconcerting to hear about that, but more concerning for me are the PR issue and how Oris has been responding to customers' concerns. But I'm sure it'll be all up and up from here.


As I said in the other thread - I spent some time with this new reference at an AD. I made hand adjustments at least a dozen times and had no issue / no "jumping". I believe there are two issues here - one is that maybe a specific example is having a problem or experiencing a defect, the other is that perhaps you should take comments with a grain of salt.....


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## kritameth

Yukoner1 said:


> As I said in the other thread - I spent some time with this new reference at an AD. I made hand adjustments at least a dozen times and had no issue / no "jumping". I believe there are two issues here - one is that maybe a specific example is having a problem or experiencing a defect, the other is that perhaps you should take comments with a grain of salt.....


Or that a specific example is _not _having, it's hard to know which when you've handled one. Tongue-in-cheek aside, yes, I'm taking _all _comments with two grains of salt. At this point it's all I know is that it's a new movement, some hiccups cannot not be expected. What matters more, at least to me, is how Oris chooses to deal with them.


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## Yukoner1

kritameth said:


> Or that a specific example is _not _having, it's hard to know which when you've handled one. Tongue-in-cheek aside, yes, I'm taking _all _comments with two grains of salt. At this point it's all I know is that it's a new movement, some hiccups cannot not be expected. What matters more, at least to me, is how Oris chooses to deal with them.


Well, so far all we have is a dude on YouTube. There's no one in these threads that has said THEIR example is having the same problem. Only folks who have said they haven't had an issue at all. I'm usually pretty leery with putting too much weight on some vlogger announcing their gripe to the world. The problem is that we also don't know how the vlogger tried to deal with the situation. Most people don't know how to interact with businesses when there are problems. "ORIS YOU SUCK THIS WATCH IS BROKEN AND IT'S BRAND NEW" will illicit a much different response than "Hey Oris, I bought this watch just a few days ago and it's doing this, how can that be fixed ?". The former happens much more frequently than we realize.


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## kritameth

Yukoner1 said:


> Well, so far all we have is a dude on YouTube. There's no one in these threads that has said THEIR example is having the same problem. Only folks who have said they haven't had an issue at all. I'm usually pretty leery with putting too much weight on some vlogger announcing their gripe to the world. The problem is that we also don't know how the vlogger tried to deal with the situation. Most people don't know how to interact with businesses when there are problems. "ORIS YOU SUCK THIS WATCH IS BROKEN AND IT'S BRAND NEW" will illicit a much different response than "Hey Oris, I bought this watch just a few days ago and it's doing this, how can that be fixed ?". The former happens much more frequently than we realize.


I hear you, and we're all learning about this new movement together. I'm approaching this with an open-mind as I continue to keep my eyes and ears peeled for longer term owner reports. So far, between the YouTuber, my friend, and this seller, I count 3 reports of PR issue. But for all I know it's only these 3 out of many thousands. 








FS: ORIS AQUIS DATE 43.5mm 400MVMT $2300


Selling my like new, recently acquired, single owner Aquis. This is the new model with the 400 movement with 5 day power reserve and 10 year warranty. This was obtained from an AD last week. The condition is exceptional, near flawless. There may be a hairline on the clasp, but case, Crystal and...




www.watchuseek.com


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## Archer

Yukoner1 said:


> Well, so far all we have is a dude on YouTube. There's no one in these threads that has said THEIR example is having the same problem. Only folks who have said they haven't had an issue at all. I'm usually pretty leery with putting too much weight on some vlogger announcing their gripe to the world. The problem is that we also don't know how the vlogger tried to deal with the situation. Most people don't know how to interact with businesses when there are problems. "ORIS YOU SUCK THIS WATCH IS BROKEN AND IT'S BRAND NEW" will illicit a much different response than "Hey Oris, I bought this watch just a few days ago and it's doing this, how can that be fixed ?". The former happens much more frequently than we realize.


Having watched the videos, I don't believe that your characterization of the person who made both videos is in any way accurate or fair. There was no ranting and raving as you suggest, and he posted a follow-up from Oris with their explanation, and showed that their "fix" worked.

I can tell you something that happens far more than most watch collectors realize - new movements have problems. I see it nearly every day at my bench, and watch companies who are in it for the long haul continue upgrading their movements to resolve small issues. Some companies are still making updated parts for their movement decades after the movement itself went out of production and was discontinued, so these upgraded parts are changed at service. It's rare that a new movement will work 100% out of the box, without having some tweaks made to the design of parts along the way, and this includes the big hitters in the industry.

I know you want to go out of your way to defend Oris, but just realize that this is not unusual at all for a brand new movement to have issues.

Cheers, Al


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## Yukoner1

Archer said:


> Having watched the videos, I don't believe that your characterization of the person who made both videos is in any way accurate or fair. There was no ranting and raving as you suggest, and he posted a follow-up from Oris with their explanation, and showed that their "fix" worked.
> 
> I can tell you something that happens far more than most watch collectors realize - new movements have problems. I see it nearly every day at my bench, and watch companies who are in it for the long haul continue upgrading their movements to resolve small issues. Some companies are still making updated parts for their movement decades after the movement itself went out of production and was discontinued, so these upgraded parts are changed at service. It's rare that a new movement will work 100% out of the box, without having some tweaks made to the design of parts along the way, and this includes the big hitters in the industry.
> 
> I know you want to go out of your way to defend Oris, but just realize that this is not unusual at all for a brand new movement to have issues.


Yeah, this is super common. I worked for a cellular provider for many years and I know exactly what happens. A person will call in and abuse the hell out of the first rep that answers the phone, then when they're passed off to management, they all of a sudden become very polite and nice. As a general statement: people are fake, phony and they lie. I agree that the video did not show ranting or raving. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. More times than not, I'm afraid, I'm correct in this assessment.

Yep, don't disagree that new movements have issues. It's like buying the first model year of a new motor vehicle. Even a second or third year. Lots of "bugs" and factory defects, whether design or otherwise, get resolved in those years. I absolutely believe the 400 will have issues that crop up - this is why the new movement was put into a tried and tested case and reference, so when issues pop up, it's less of a question of what component is to blame. All I'm saying is, I couldn't reproduce this issue and others here who actually own this watch can't reproduce the issue either. So this isn't a situation of "every example is going to have this issue, it's a design flaw".

Not intending to defend anyone. Just pointing out the facts that are currently available.


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## Archer

Yukoner1 said:


> As a general statement: people are fake, phony and they lie. I agree that the video did not show ranting or raving. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. More times than not, I'm afraid, I'm correct in this assessment.


Just going to say that there are no "facts" in your statements about the videos, as this is pure conjecture on your part.



Yukoner1 said:


> Not intending to defend anyone. Just pointing out the facts that are currently available.


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## Yukoner1

Archer said:


> Just going to say that there are no "facts" in your statements about the videos, as this is pure conjecture on your part.


As I said, general statement - people lie. I've been around in the world long enough to have figured this out, therefore, I take everything with a grain of salt. You know how many people tried to return cell phones (this is before the smartphone days) that had taken a spill in a bathtub / washing machine / toilet, who SWORE it "never got wet" ? 

I also learned a long time ago how to deal with business and larger corporations. Losing ones mind and threating to sue or post publicly how crappy the company is gets you no where. An example for example's sake - I own a motor vehicle that has no dealer where I live, but had a major recall that needed to be performed. The closest dealer is across the border in the USA. The closest Canadian dealer is more than 2x the distance from the US one. Something you may not know, but recalls and warranty work generally can't be performed across country borders. You can't take your Canadian car and have warranty servicing done at a US dealer. You can't take your US car and get a recall done in Canada (even if the exact same recall is open in both countries). There were a number of people in the same boat as me, and every single one them had their lamenting sob stories about how the manufacturer told them no, no exceptions, blah blah blah, this is an a**hole brand and I'll never buy another vehicle from them, etc etc. I ended up doing some research and writing and mailing a physical letter to one of the directors of recall / safety at the Canadian offices of the manufacturer. Long story short, I was not a jerk in my letter and I explained that I understood the policy but here is where I live and it would be very difficult and impractical to go to a Canadian dealer and I would highly appreciate an authorization to go to a US dealer. I got a letter back about 3 weeks later saying they understood my dilemma and to book the recall work with my US dealer of choice and to have their service manager get in touch with so-and-so (contact info was provided) so they could work out the situation internally and I wouldn't have to worry about anything other than bringing my vehicle in.

Now I realize that's a completely different topic altogether, but the point is that HOW you approach a problem has a HUGE impact on the results. I learned that a long time ago, and honestly, I've gotten much further in all aspects of life because of it.

Again, the facts at the moment are we have one person on YouTube who says they have a problem. We have folks on the forum here who have this watch and say they don't. We have folks who have seen this watch in person who haven't reproduced the issue...... I'm not saying there ISN'T an issue, but at this point, it doesn't seem like it's some major manufacturing defect that will result in a mass recall.


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## Archer

Yukoner1 said:


> As I said, general statement - people lie. I've been around in the world long enough to have figured this out, therefore, I take everything with a grain of salt.


You certainly have your own very dim view of people, and if that's your view of the world you are welcome to it. But what is clear is that none of what you state here are known to be "facts" regarding the videos posted.

I service watches for a living, and although I have encountered the odd person who was abusive, it is far from a common thing.


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## COZ

Seems to be a lot of back and forth on the minute hand moving with crown, is a problem - not a problem. I just saw the new 400 Aquis a couple days ago at my AD. I manipulated the crown to see if the problem in the video showed up on this particular piece. The sales rep. which I have known and bought many watches from was there to see my actions. I'd roughly say about 75% of the times I moved crown in and out the minute hand did jump. 2-3 minute jump when pulling crown out and about 0.5 minute jump when pushing in. Probably cycled it in and out 5-6 times changing time between each cycle. Just another data point.


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## dogandcatdentist

Archer said:


> Having watched the videos, I don't believe that your characterization of the person who made both videos is in any way accurate or fair. There was no ranting and raving as you suggest, and he posted a follow-up from Oris with their explanation, and showed that their "fix" worked.
> 
> I can tell you something that happens far more than most watch collectors realize - new movements have problems. I see it nearly every day at my bench, and watch companies who are in it for the long haul continue upgrading their movements to resolve small issues. Some companies are still making updated parts for their movement decades after the movement itself went out of production and was discontinued, so these upgraded parts are changed at service. It's rare that a new movement will work 100% out of the box, without having some tweaks made to the design of parts along the way, and this includes the big hitters in the industry.
> 
> I know you want to go out of your way to defend Oris, but just realize that this is not unusual at all for a brand new movement to have issues.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Just got one of these today, oddly enough, none of the times I operated the crown at the AD, it did the jump, but as soon as I got home, it did it...the wiggle hack does work. I got good deal on this watch, the ADs discount these watches, and with that in mind, I'm happy so far with my purchase.

Sent from my SM-F916U1 using Tapatalk


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## dogandcatdentist

yokied said:


> I went and tried it on at the AD. It's a beautiful dial but wearability concerns have me considering further, especially given I've never even tried on an Oris before and the fact that they have smaller sizes in this line that will receive the movement at some point.
> 
> I was offered 17% off straight out of the gate without even bargaining.


Yes, me too, including the rubber strap and deployant as an add-on to the bracelet variant.

Sent from my SM-F916U1 using Tapatalk


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## Cblock406

Wanted to bump this as I haven't seen all that much content here on the forum. People that have bought, how are you liking this watch? Still have issues with the minute jump? Pictures?

I've been really considering upgrading my blue/black for one but I'm not totally convinced yet.


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## JacobC

Cblock406 said:


> Wanted to bump this as I haven't seen all that much content here on the forum. People that have bought, how are you liking this watch? Still have issues with the minute jump? Pictures?
> 
> I've been really considering upgrading my blue/black for one but I'm not totally convinced yet.


From the outside looking in it seems that early movements were prone to problems. In my LIMITED discussion with done collectors who have received new caliber 400 movements as replacements they have been flawless and keep very good time. To early to tell on a long term basis yet but hopefully the kinks have been ironed out. Please note my sample size is REALLY small.


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## Buramu

Saw the bear. Still think that’s a very pretty looking movement


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## SifuJeff

I'm loving my Calibre 400. I have seen the hands jump when pressing in the crown, but it's mostly due to how I press, if I'm gentle, it doesn't jump.
The rate also seems great, my (informal) testing shows a gain of 2 seconds per day. I haven't tested all positions, but on the wrist and face up in the box both show +2.
Quick release bracelet works well. My issue with that is that there are only 2 options, the bracelet and the black rubber strap. The strap was way too long. I was on the last hole and had the clasp adjusted to smallest setting and it was still a little loose, so I went with the bracelet. I asked Oris about shorter and different colored straps. The response was right now they only have the black in one size, but it can be cut. I'm not sure how that would work, you can't cut the end with the quick release, and while cutting the other end would shorten the strap, I'm still going to have to be on the last hole. Anyway, a change system when you have nothing to change seems a little silly. Hopefully they will release some more options in the future. 
And I like the bear, I didn't notice it until this thread pointed it out.


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## Tanker G1

SifuJeff said:


> The response was right now they only have the black in one size, but it can be cut. I'm not sure how that would work, you can't cut the end with the quick release, and while cutting the other end would shorten the strap, I'm still going to have to be on the last hole.


Not the best video quality but here's how you do it:


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## SifuJeff

Tanker G1 said:


> Not the best video quality but here's how you do it:


Ok, that makes sense. And that guy definitely needs a good camera person. 
Thanks


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