# Sticky  Made in Germany ( a re-post)



## Guest

Regarding "Made in Germany" I once wrote:

Ok, here we go:

Made in Germany was kinda trade mark before Trias, Elysee, Aeromatic 1912, Tauchmeister1937, Glashaus Hamburg, Olivier Witteaux, Steinhausen appeared and conquered the market (online preferably). But they started up their business knowing that there is a strong demand for products made in Germany all over the world. Most of them don´t even run a shop or are represented at reputable watch shops here in Germany, most of them are selling online only (500 Trias currently on ebay.de). Nothing wrong with that but it´s already a hint what the business is about.

Some Trias watches are sold at so called "auction houses" here in Germany for 49, 69, 109 Euro. There´s hardly a german component with it !

"Made in Germany" always stood for outstanding quality, state of the art components combined with eye catching appearance (quote from german-watches).

Nowadays watches are offered to be "made in Germany" with prestigious names and history (which in some cases is a fairy tale). Due to the fact that there is no legal term a TRIAS watch is "Made in Germany". Despite the fact that the production of major components of these "products" - many times even engineering, assembly and testing - is performed in countries with cheap labor in order to reduce cost as much as possible. That´s why a watch "made in Germany" can be offered for 200 bucks or even less.

Most of the watch brands like TRIAS do not have any watchmaking history or tradition, aren´t skilled and have not seen a watchmakers school from the inside. Most of these brands are just a one-man-show, a trader and wholesaler jumping on the train to "big cash".

And please note: I am far away from discriminating (which others could interprete when reading your post) these watches. But I´ll stick to state: They don´t deserve to be "made in Germany" but due to the lack of legal term(s) they are. As I always say: You´ll get what you paid for.

Sothis, Schauer and Temption, Limes, Glashütte, Union, Mühle, Nomos, Tutima, Sinn, Damasko, Aristo and all the major brands I´ve forgotten to mention here tried to stick to what "made in Germany" should be about. TRIAS doesn´t.

The philosphy of Sothis, Schauer and Temption for example coud be read on:
http://www.german-watches.com/english/seitezweiengl.htm

There still is a difference what "made in Germany" should be and currently is about. And please keep in mind that a base Unitas of a TRIAS differs a lot from a Unitas equipped in a Panerai, it´s not even close.
Just my two cents.

____________________________________________________________________

*Here´s what John wrote:*

Hi -

The term "Made in Germany" has strong meanings for German manufacturing. Back in the early days of manufacturing in the 19th century, significant advances in the quality of goods were made via industrialization. England took the lead here and was the major industrial supplier to the world, largely. In the process of German unification towards the end of the 19th century, there was a conscious effort to use "Made in Germany" as a marketing tool for products of German industrial production: this was largely successful and continues to be a major, major marketing tool for German manufacturers.

Now, as you point out elsewhere, the Swiss have rather stronger requirements for calling something "Made in Switzerland" than the Germans have for someone using "Made in Germany".

The problem is that the German watch-making industry, while not quite as extensively as was the case in the US, was devestated by Japanese quartz watches in the 1960s and 1970s. Many watch manufacturers were driven out of business, and indeed there are only a few survivors that actually make their own caliber movements, such as Lange & Söhne, Mühle, etc. This is partially due to the fact that these companies were protected in Eastern Germany from foreign competition, which was not the case in western Germany. After the collapse of the east German state, western money restarted the watchmaking tradition with a vengeance, and they have been extremely successful.

The problem faced by the German watch industry is that many made their own calibers, as did the Swiss back then as well (we're talking the 1950s and 1960s here). The Swiss industry was saved by Swatch and the decision to consolidate and standardize their movements: hence the predominance of ETA today. This was a deliberate decision by the Swiss.

In Germany, anti-trust regulations did not permit the German government to bring about a unification of the industry: it was left to the market. The problem, however, was that German manufacturers were largely too small to survive. The bigger players (Kienzle, Junghans, Stowa and others) viewed any co-operation with distinct distaste and utterly failed to cooperate. Coupled with serious management errors about what sort of watches to produce, these companies failed to adjust to market demand and ended up drastically reduced if not gone altogether.

Some have survived. Junghans is Germany's largest maker of watches, but they are largely commodity pieces with very little high-end, despite having developed truly amazing technology, such as quartz watches that use radio signals based on cesium time pieces to regulate themselves every single day for extremely high accuracy. Kienzle is but a shadow if itself, making largely quartz retro designs for advertising gifts (subscribe to this magazine and we'll give you a watch!), and the vast majority of German manufacturers can no longer use domestically developed movements, since there are hardly any left.

ETA has been too effective here: they dominate the upper-end of the watch segment, providing extremely good calibers at a price that no one else can touch if they were to develop their own. Not every one likes the Valjoux 7750 movement, not the least because it seems to be in virtually every watch sold nowadays, but it is a damned good movement that lets a maker sell a watch for a price that people will buy enough of them so that the rent is paid.

That's the truth of the modern watch industry: no one can compete with ETA, not even the Japanese. The Chinese *may* give ETA a run for the money, but not with their current quality control.

So what does all this have to do with Trias and Co.?

There are only a few German manufacturers who design their own cases, make them in Germany, create watch faces using German designers steeped in German design tradition - Bauhaus and instrument design - and use German watchmakers to manufacture the watches. You must understand that to become a German watchmaker, let alone a master watchmaker, you need to apprentice to a German watchmaking company for no less than three full years, during which you make only minimum wage (actually less, since there is none in Germany) and besides working have to learn the trade as well. There is a German tradition of this, and the industry lives and dies based on the number of people who choose this career. To become a master watchmaker means not only having a number of years working as a watchmaker, you must pass a rigorous series of technical and business tests before you achieve the title.

I went to one today, and he is technically magnificent: he regulated a Zim Pobeda within 20 seconds that is now running from 4 minutes slow to within a minute. He looked at the watch for 15 seconds and knew within that time frame exactly how much the watch had to be regulated. He didn't know that from being a watch freak and years and years of experience, but rather it was part of his training. He took apart a Gruen precision automatic that was running - 5 minutes a day not to figure out what the problem was, but rather because he already knew what the problem was (the minute and the second gears needed to have old oil that had lacquered over the surface of the gear and increased the movement friction had to be removed and the old laquered oil had to be ground off). These guys really, really know their stuff.

The problem with Trias et al is that they do not support the industrial base for watchmaking in Germany: they are legally allowed to put "Made in Germany" on their watches, but they don't make their watches in Germany: they are, effectively, OEMs that order the watches made and place their name on them with "Made in Germany", exploiting legal loopholes to make higher profits despite lower prices. Their watches aren't designed by professional watch makers in Germany, but are rather put together by industrial designers from design schools. Good industrial designers do their own original work: bad industrial designers do derivative works, copying from others.

Contrast this with a company like Sinn or Damasko: they come from a tradition of making instrument watches. Sinn even has an actual live materials physicist on their payroll doing original research work on materials for their watches (they've got one which doesn't need any lubrication, for instance).

So for fans of German watches you've got some problems: one the one hand you've got an industry which lives and dies on the basis of its technical expertise and design ability: on the other hand, the costs of making such watches is such that these makers need to sell the watches starting at the upper mid range (from €700 upwards) to even start to make money.

In other words, you've got great manufacturing ability, fantastic design and technical expertise, but costing more than most people would be willing to pay for a watch.

On the other hand, if you make a derivative work, stealing design elements from here and there, give the actual manufacturing work to a chinese conglomerate who can price below manufacturing costs in order to get market share (talk to me sometime about Chinese accounting practices...), and then sell those watches at the lower mid range (from €200 to €500), then these people are riding on the coattails of those who have created the market for them.

I'm not going to denigrate Trias et al as being ****ty watches: they're not. But they also aren't representatives of German watch making, which of course is what they indeed claim to be.

If you like the design, hey! But it's not really "Made in Germany", regardless of what the law allows.

People *do* get emotional about it: German watchmaking has a grand and proud tradition that is facing some very, very, serious challenges. They have seen what has happened to the US watch industry - I collect Gruens, I know - and are trying to fight back based on what their competitive advantages are: design, materials and manufacturing excellence for cases. Nobody in Europe outside of the very high-end can compete with ETA and no one does: but having an ETA or Unitas in your watch doesn't mean that it isn't "Made In Germany".

It's a difficult business to be in. A buddy and I looked at getting into watch design and manufacturing, and realized that we'd need capitalization of at least 3 mio € to make it past the third year, starting from scratch, and the profit margin after retail and wholesale margins meant that for a watch selling for €1000 the profit margin for manufacturing the watch was less than €70. That's after all manufacturing and personnel costs, as well as financing costs, but before taxes. That's only 7% gross operating margin, and given the risks inherent in operating a business, the return was, for us, too small.

We'd have had to hire no less than 7 people (besides ourselves) and there would have been negative cash flow for at least two years. That's if we were to do our own design, have the blank cases manufactured to our specifications but finished by us, and all assembling by us. It meant serious design work in conjunction with two master watchmakers here, but we would have used an ETA caliber: to design our own caliber would have entailed at least three times as much money, and it probably wouldn't be any better than a bog-standard ETA movement.

But if you farm out all that, you can make a watch that you can sell retail for €500 and have the same profit margin, with less than 25% of the costs. But the design of the watch wouldn't be ours (it would be the designers' interpretation of what he thinks we want, big difference!), the watch would be made in China by who knows what sort of labor exploitation, we wouldn't bother repairing anything (cheaper to make 5500 watches instead of 5000, give anyone unhappy a new watch...happens in the OEM business all the time), and we'd be just a wannabe: we want to be German watchmakers, but didn't want to spend the years of training and investment needed.

And BMW no longer labels BMWs as being "Made in Germany": they are "Made by BMW" instead.

Sorry to have gone on for so long: I'm an economist by trade.

And I own mostly Russian waches: I'm saving up for a Sinn. I won't buy watches that try to be what they really aren't.

Best regards to all and everyone: relax.

John

______________________________________________________________________________________

*RandyG´s contribution:*

Doesn't the German government have any control of how the term is used? If something is marked "Made in Germany" and it's country of origin is China that is not only fraudlent, but, could cause others to, unknowingly, commit fraud. As an example, if I buy a product from you that is "Made in Germany" to sell to a US government agency and it turns out to be Made in China, I could face a huge legal/criminal problem, because, Germany is an approved trading partner and China is not. I am aware that there are many loopholes, but, if the country of orgin is one place it is fraud to say it was made in another. Loopholes aside, if they are allowed to do this then the blame should go to the Geman lawmakers. I'm still surprised that this can happen. O| 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Frank Valentine responded:*

Re: Doesn't the German government have any control of how
One shouldn´t forget that "Made in Germany" was never meant to be as a sign of quality but a warning against low quality! It originates in the year 1887 when Great Britain launched a law against low quality copies of english products (doesn´t remind you that of something... China , China, ...) German imports had to be marked with "Made in Germany" to warn off british customers from these cheap quality products. But the german quality grew better and better and things took a turn. Customers wanted these products for the reason they were made in Germany. The germans realized this and happily labled their products with the "warning" until today. Now it seems that things are taking a turn again. This time in favour of China, even if this still might take a few years. :-(


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## joedog

Hi Guys

Total newb here... First of all GREAT site congrats to all involved! AND re. this forum many thanks for the info above,very helpful and interesting.

I have a wide interest in affordable auto watches but not really much knowledge but I'm working on it... so i have a question re. 'genuine' German makers in this post https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=3277 there is a comprehensive list, but does the brand Robert-e REALLY fit in there?? Their auto's seem way too cheap and they even a tourbillion at 1200 Euros, is this possible?

I'd be curious if anyone else has a view on these guys in particular... From my research I just see them as one of the many psuedo German makers using chinese product. I have no problem if they are, but i was surprised to see them in the 'OK' list.

Thanks folks


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## Guest

You already said it: Their auto's seem way too cheap and they even a tourbillion at 1200 Euros, is this possible?

RobertE is a wholesaler´s brand selling Robert and Steinhart too.

Steinhart + Elbl GbR
Kobelweg 12 1/4
86156 Augsburg 
Deutschland
robert-e-com
robert-uhren.de
robert-relojes.com
(and maybe more).


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## LeifUK

Excellent posts, especially from John. Very informative. Thanks. Leif


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## artec

Regardless of history, if the watch was made in China and is sold as Made in Germany, fraud is still fraud, isn't it? And BMW now prints Made by BMW because they have a plant in the US and another in South Africa. In addition, they have to print the percentages of the product made in the US and in Germany. No room for all that on a watch!


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## Guest

*Made in Glashütte, an addition by NOMOS*

NOMOS Press Release
Made in Glashütte, Germany

*Protected designation of origin, quality characteristic - and why a judgement is important for the watchmaking town.*

Glashütte, April 2007. Glashütte is a small city in eastern Germany in which some of the world's best watches have been built for over 160 years. Germany is the home of the Volkswagen and the Werkbund, of Leitz and Leica, Bosch and Bauhaus. Germany, the country that is known for outstanding quality, design and engineering. Made in Glashütte, Made in Germany - both are protected designations of origin with an international reputation. And both are protected, a mark of quality such as "Cognac", "Swiss Watches" or "Parma Ham". It is therefore only watches in which over 50 percent of their movements' value has been created on location that may be sold as "Glashütte Watches".
NOMOS Glashütte was the first brand, which was able to build a mechanical watch with the protected designation of origin "Glashütte" after 1990. Because the designation "Glashütte" is so prized, NOMOS carries, as do the city's other manufactories, the city's name on its letter head: Lange's official name is "A. Lange & Söhne Glashütte i/SA"; the watches of Glashütte Original are made in the "Glashütter Uhrenbetrieb" (Glashütte watch factory - abbreviation: GUB) and NOMOS is called "NOMOS Glashütte/SA". Even Germany's largest watch and jewellery dealer, the Hamburg firm Wempe, now makes watches in Glashütte together with NOMOS and is represented on site with its own company: the "Wempe Chronometerwerke Glashütte/SA".
The Munich District Court I has just given an extra boost to Glashütte as a protected designation of origin. With its final judgment of 02.27.2007 - not yet legally binding as of early April - a competitor was prosecuted for advertising his watches with the protected designation of origin, "Glashütte", and this because the majority of the watches' parts were not, as required, produced in Glashütte.

The convicted manufacturer may continue to sell his watches. The protected and value increasing "Glashütte" may not, however, be written on his watches or used to advertise them as long as the majority of the calibres' valuable parts are not made in Glashütte. NOMOS Glashütte believes that this judgment is fair and just, for it is in the watchmaking city's interest, as well as that of consumers who trust in quality from Glashütte, to protect the high quality standard. And in the interest of each and every watchmaker who invests in the small Saxon city's watchmaking and precisions mechanics.
In this way the judgement has helped to create jobs, because soon everybody and anybody who works in Glashütte will be "in the watch," as the saying goes. And the more parts that are built on location, the more work people have to do. Everything that is built somewhere else, produced abroad for less, destroys jobs and hurts the reputation of "Made in Glashütte" and "Made in Germany".
(Glashütte 2007, April)

Hope this will help a bit to understand what Made in Glashütte is about.


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## NormanF

German automakers ship their components abroad and have them assembled in their cars. They're not claiming their cars are even made in Germany. With watch manufacturers, they import their components abroad and assemble it in the country of manufacture, not the country of import. I think the question in the case of German watch companies arises when they charge very high prices for a watch that obviously doesn't appear 100% German made. They shouldn't charge a price that's out of line with what goes in the watch if it has foreign parts. In this day and age of the global economy, domestic brands are global brands. But they should be honest about it instead of passing themselves off as something they no longer are.


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## samflutch007

The German Manufacturers of high quality Watch Parts are now exhibing under the same flag. The aim of the organization is to promote the German manufacturers of Watch Parts. The main emphasis is on the high standard of finished products "MADE in GERMANY" such as cases, straps, bracelets, dials, hands and other accessories. All members have to meet the criterion expected from a product of German origin as well as values and norms laid down by the organization.
http://www.vdu.org/english/default.asp

--------------------------------------------
samflutch007
[edited by moderator: no links to commercial sites]


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## Guest

Just for the record:
VDU was founded in 1998 and mainly covers watch- and part manufacturers of the Pforzheim and Black Forest region. It is far away from being a platform for Made in Germany and far away from uniting all manufacturers. If you will have a closer look into you will recognize that Glashuette brands are not represented. 

BTW: WPG / Watchparts from Germany was already reported here on WUS, they also exhibit on Baselworld.


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## zett

stuffler said:


> "Made in Germany" always stood for outstanding quality, state of the art components combined with eye catching appearance (quote from german-watches).


I cannot do anything else but agree with you Mike. German products always represent quality over all and are made with a great idea: built to last. German engineering is a superior example of precision and effectiveness.

P.S. I like the way you concentrate intensely on your posts |>.


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## hyper

zett said:


> I cannot do anything else but agree with you Mike. German products always represent quality over all and are made with a great idea: built to last. German engineering is a superior example of precision and effectiveness.
> 
> P.S. I like the way you concentrate intensely on your posts |>.


Dear Mike, I purchased a Hanhart, what a great watch. Just as great as the WWll model. The only thing I changedwas the brown band, nice but not my thing. I also own many orignal WWII German Army watches. They all run.


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## danielcm

Thanks for the very interesting post. I always thought German craftsmanship was one of the best. Makes me all the more happier ordering a German-made flieger watch. (and im planning on 2 more afterwards :-d)

Cheers! :-!


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## Armchair

Thanks for this interesting thread. I have a question regarding John's comment below:



> So for fans of German watches you've got some problems: one the one hand you've got an industry which lives and dies on the basis of its technical expertise and design ability: on the other hand, the costs of making such watches is such that these makers need to sell the watches starting at the upper mid range (from €700 upwards) to even start to make money.
> 
> ...
> 
> On the other hand, if you make a derivative work, stealing design elements from here and there, give the actual manufacturing work to a chinese conglomerate who can price below manufacturing costs in order to get market share (talk to me sometime about Chinese accounting practices...), and then sell those watches at the lower mid range (from €200 to €500), then these people are riding on the coattails of those who have created the market for them.


Where does a company like Stowa fit in to this? They have watches from 330 Euros up to 1000 Euros+.


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## bigmainecoone

In fact there is no big difference between "Swiss Made" / "German Made" or "Fabriqué en Suisse"/"Made in Germany". Especially if it comes to legal terms.

All you need is 51 % of the added value, meaning: play around with figures and costs and here you are......having something that was 100 % built in China, Malaysia etc.....but labelled "Fabriqué en Suisse" or "Made in Germany".

This is just a job for a finance team 

Btw......even big names are doing more than 50 % of their real production jobs in Asia or Eastern Europe


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## Gor

Please tell me if any of you knows a German brand called "RE watch". Thanks a lot.


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## GoFisk

Check www.re-watch.de.


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## brainless

Gor said:


> Please tell me if any of you knows a *German brand* called "RE watch". Thanks a lot.


Hi Gor,

no doubt it is a brand of a German company - but many a doubt that their watches are German watches.
*R E* are the initials of *R*ichard *E*ichmüller, probably the owner of the company.

Best regards,

Volker ;-)


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## TK-421

who are the big names you are referring too?



bigmainecoone said:


> In fact there is no big difference between "Swiss Made" / "German Made" or "Fabriqué en Suisse"/"Made in Germany". Especially if it comes to legal terms.
> 
> All you need is 51 % of the added value, meaning: play around with figures and costs and here you are......having something that was 100 % built in China, Malaysia etc.....but labelled "Fabriqué en Suisse" or "Made in Germany".
> 
> This is just a job for a finance team
> 
> Btw......even big names are doing more than 50 % of their real production jobs in Asia or Eastern Europe


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## Reecek

> I'm not going to denigrate Trias et al as being ****ty watches: they're not. But they also aren't representatives of German watch making, which of course is what they indeed claim to be.


Well I would like to confirm that they are ****ty watches, I purchased a Trias AGORA watch that rattled badly, when you moved your arm it would clink, this was from day one! I contacted Trias to ask if this is normal they said send it back for a replacement, I did and after a month I received it, it has the original fault even worse and the number 4 position markers are a disgrace::-|









Regarding the rattle it is the automatic rotor winder, when moving the watch from front to back you can see it wobbling, as though the bearing has lost it's balls or screw loose, however I doubt this as both watches have the same problem:<|









Further contact with 3 divisions of the company has been completely ignored, about 3 weeks ago now.:think:


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## turban1

i am told that the english phrase 'jerry-built,' meaning of poor construction, began in the mid19th C when german clock-making was in its infancy and the sector struggled to produce quality clocks. how far they have come!! of course i am (just) old enough to recall when 'made in japan' was a term of scorn rather than appreciation. hard work and talent pays off.


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## Possolito

Really interesting thread. Good to know more and more about companies...
I have one "Limes" and i choose for a special rotor, Five or six years ago... No regret for it!! I will need soon the service for it!! The buttons become hard to push.... see bellow!:-!:-d


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## Marrick

turban1 said:


> i am told that the english phrase 'jerry-built,' meaning of poor construction, began in the mid19th C when german clock-making was in its infancy and the sector struggled to produce quality clocks. how far they have come!! of course i am (just) old enough to recall when 'made in japan' was a term of scorn rather than appreciation. hard work and talent pays off.


Sorry this is very late contribution, but the term 'Jerry - built' has nothing to do with Germany. There are a number of possible explanations see: Jerry built. I was always told that it was the Liverpool firm of poor builders - 'Jerry Brothers' - but the link above casts some doubt on that.

And these snippets from a 1901 book http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...lt&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAQ confirm that the story is untrue - but still, nothing to do with Germany.


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## Lemper

Possolito said:


> Really interesting thread. Good to know more and more about companies...
> I have one "Limes" and i choose for a special rotor, Five or six years ago... No regret for it!! I will need soon the service for it!! The buttons become hard to push.... see bellow!:-!:-d


Yeah, I agree. Good job on making it a sticky mods!


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## CM HUNTER

It's clear from this thread that alot of people have a great deal to learn about the different German watch companies, and also need to learn about what matters with German watches that seperates them from others. 

The whole tired automobile analogy that keeps coming up in this forum is proof that some just don't get it. The auto industry and the watch industry couldn't be more different. The billion dollar factories with thousands of employees (versus the small watch shops with 15-20 skilled craftsmen) tends to make it obvious that the auto companies do what they do for their particular bottom line/overhead. The scale in which the two industries operates is simply uncomparable. Not to mention the whole other fact that an automobile has hundreds of different parts that they are made of, while a timepiece (even one with complications) doesn't have nearly the amount of components.

You are missing the big picture when you say German cars are not even made in Germany. The German engineers (arguably the best in the World) dictate how the motor functions and that's what draws the premium, and that's where the appeal for most comes into play where German automobiles are concerned.

Likewise, the patented innovations, engineering, and craftsmanship that comes into play with companies like Damasko, Sinn and UTS, for example, is the appeal and draw for German watches.


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## goldage

I am engineer too and i am caught in the german watch industry for this. The final product somewhat reflect this philosophy of personal commitment in skill craftmanship and sprit of personal achievement.

Swiss orlogy industry too, but there is a great glap with everyday normal working people and indecent ocious and rich individualism.


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## Farlius

Informative thread!

Thanks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatapatapatalk


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## thoerge

Good threat.....check out 
Sinn
Helberg/H2O
Marcello C
Very good high quality watches


Gesendet von meinem iPad mit Tapatalk


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## hoxuantu

Great post. Everything is presented clearly.


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## iflyem1

So what watches that claim to be made in Germany really are?


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## StufflerMike

iflyem1 said:


> So what watches that claim to be made in Germany really are?


Read the forum would be my advice.


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## iflyem1

stuffler said:


> Read the forum would be my advice.


You are very informative


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## StufflerMike

iflyem1 said:


> You are very informative


Thanks, you're welcome.


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## dsvilhena

So, who's John? I'd like to ask him some questions, maybe via PM, but apparently he's not reading this thread anymore. 


Used my fingers to type this


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## StufflerMike

dsvilhena said:


> So, who's John? I'd like to ask him some questions, maybe via PM, but apparently he's not reading this thread anymore.


JohnF and he is still around. Last check in yesterday.


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## horolicious

*What does it mean Made in Germany*

So, with Federal Trade Commission clarifying that for a watch to have Made in USA label, the "heart" of the watch must be built in USA. That us my understanding anyway. So I contacted Federal Ministry of Justice and Consumer Protection in Germany to find out from the horses mouth. 
BMJV - BMJV
In the meantime while I am awaiting the response, which I will post it please feel free to chime in.

send from AZ


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## CM HUNTER

*Re: What does it mean Made in Germany*

Topic has been brought up several times. An "offical" response is not necessary, but does exist. A forum search, or search for "Made In Germany WatchUSeek" on any search engine will supply you with links to your answer.

Pretty straightforward really. Diffferent levels of German craftsmanship exists in the more prominent brands on this forum (Steinhart need not apply). Some just produce their cases. Some do extensive in-house work to Swiss movements. Some do both. Some do their own manufactured movements. Just pick a German brand you like, appreciate the amount of German craftsmanship they provide, and enjoy.


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## Alexcm123

So seeing a watch with "made in Germany " doesn't even mean that's where's it's made correct.


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## Alexcm123

Great thread very informative.


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## CM HUNTER

Alexcm123 said:


> So seeing a watch with "made in Germany " doesn't even mean that's where's it's made correct.


Too vague of a question. It would depend on the company. For instance, Ickler and Damasko manufacture their cases (and then some) in-house, but Made In Germany isn't found on the dial of all models. So, it works that way too. Again, doing a little research will go a long way.


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## t_mac86

After reading this thread I've been searching to see if there have been in the last few years since the excellent opening posts any updates law-wise. What I could find in a guide made by the German Chamber of Industry and Commerce is the following guidelines, useful for anyone who wants a clear definition. As you will see there is no mention of percentages like for the swiss-made label: 

"A product 'Made in Germany' must fulfil the following requirements:

Those services and components which are crucial to the quality and valuation of the goods must have been performed or manufactured in Germany.

The description 'Made in Germany' is not justified by simply assembling parts that have been prefabricated abroad, carrying out a final inspection or labelling the goods in Germany.

On the other hand, some parts or components of an industrial product may certainly be supplied from abroad, but the essential parts of the final product must always originate in Germany. 

A significant refinement may justify the description 'Made in Germany'”, but here too the above statement still applies: the refinement must be crucial to the quality and valuation of the product."

This definition of course leaves a lot unsaid. I wonder exactly how German authorities decide if this label has been misused and if they actually care.


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## StufflerMike

There's judicature as well: Oberlandesgericht (OLG) Düsseldorf, 5. April 2011 (Case file I-20 U 110/10), Oberlandesgerichts Hamm (Case 4 U 121/13), Bundesgerichtshof (Federal High Court), case file: I ZR 16/14, Oberlandesgericht Frankfurt/Main, 15 October 2015, case 6 U 161/14.
And there is the Lex Glashütte (Landgericht München 2007) mentioning +50% (Nomos vs. Mühle), Landgericht München, 22.02.2007 (Case: 4 HKO 10520/06).


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## Watchman Dan

Anyone know if there has been any change on this? Except for Glashutte and the high end, I take most "Made in Germany" watches with a grain of salt. When you see the all those watches marked "Made in Germany" with a Seiko or Miyota movement, it's more like, "_Not Really _Made in Germany... with a lot of help from China"! Seems like it's much easier for a lower priced brand to qualify as "German Made" than "Swiss Made." Reading about German origins laws as they apply to all goods, (not just watches), it looks like there is pressure from manufacturers to actually loosen them up to be more competitive. It appears that just the final operation being performed in Germany is all that's needed, which can amount to as low as 10% of the item's total value, with no requirement for any parts to actually be German. It seems like the lower priced watchmakers are going by this, rather than any watch-specific rules, or even import laws which traditionally use the movement's origin to determine the overall watch's place of origin. Apparently, in countries like the US, where Asian or even Swiss movement use could put them in violation, some German makers cheat by taking an watch made entirely in China (possibly with Japanese or Swiss movements depending on price) then remove and re-finish a bridge or rotor in Germany, and test. Some like Bruno and Sohnle, will even re-finish a quartz movement and fit a display back! Reminds me of those suits marked "Made in Italy," where Chinese plants export them to Italy to sew a label and a button or two on.


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## LostnITime

stuffler said:


> One shouldn´t forget that "Made in Germany" was never meant to be as a sign of quality but a warning against low quality! It originates in the year 1887 when Great Britain launched a law against low quality copies of english products (doesn´t remind you that of something... China , China, ...) German imports had to be marked with "Made in Germany" to warn off british customers from these cheap quality products.


Exactly. But it was only in 1887 that Britain enacted such laws. In 1862, however, at the World's Fair in London, the English dominance in mechanical engineering was broken for the first time by machines from Chemnitz, as they were of very high quality. Steam engine (1835) and locomotive (1844) production begun and became at least equal soon. The textile industry boomed and in 1845 Ferdinand Adolph Lange established himself with his extraordinary watch manufactory. So this hole thing might have been more due to market protectionism. The legitimisation may have been cheap goods  Here it is really worth drawing parallels with China. Same development....HOPEFULLY a different ending!


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## LostnITime

@Dan Finch: Well, there's valueable and cheap stuff made in Germany, just as in the US  (... but I never had a coffe as sugary as in Kentucky. I can still not understand, how that much sugar can phsically be dissolved in water ? - sorry, that had to go out)

Basically, there is the same problem as in most industrialised countries: relatively high labour costs with an ever decreasing quality and technology advantage. Fully made in Germany would often not be competitive (if we can still produce it ourselves at all). In the case of watches, a very high level could be maintained - or even more precise: could be established after 1990 from a large-scale but largely homogenised watch industry with mass production- whereby a relatively low wage level in the Glashütte region may have contributed massively to this. Many had lost their jobs in 1990, after reunification - i.e. when the economic system in the Glashütte region collapsed. And even today, the region can certainly be described as a low-wage country with me sitting directly in the center  (donation account on request)



Dan Finch said:


> It appears that just the final operation being performed in Germany is all that's needed, which can amount to as low as 10% of the item's total value, with no requirement for any parts to actually be German.


This might be an over estimation  The following is a gerneral statment and not focused on watches!
'Manufacturers justify the use of the "Made in Germany" quality label for products that are wholly or partially manufactured abroad with research, design and quality assurance that are based in Germany and correspond to German values.' [wikipedia, translation from german] "German values" ... ? ... mine is 37 by the way.

When it comes to using the brand "Glashütte" it is protected and you need to have at least 50 % of value added in Glashütte. Basically this could mean, buing stuff from ETA or elswere and doing regulation and finish in Glashütte. As far as I know there is A. Lange, Glashütte Original and Nomos who make movements their own in Germany, and of course some very high talented small watchmakers I cannot name to my shame, with Nomos being the biggest of them all and Glashütte Original being part of the swiss Swatch group. If you look on how many millions of Dollars ETA spent for the devolopment of some of their (industrial) movements, it is easy to understand that any microbrand will never have own movements. And none of the aforementioned sells movements to external companies.


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## LostnITime

Sory, double post. I hope I'll get used to this soon.


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## ronkatct

Old thread. I was checking to see whether Made in Germany is as strict as Swiss Made and apparently it is.

I have a colleague who has a Lilienthal watch with Made in Germany label, but the price after discount suggests otherwise, Also, all my German watches have ETA 2824-2 which is Swiss. So assembled in Germany with mostly foreign parts can count as Made in Germany. That is good to know, 

So if I want a true German, I would have to go for Nomos or A Lange.


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## LostnITime

ronkatct said:


> So if I want a true German, I would have to go for Nomos or A Lange.


Look for Glashütte Original GO. Caliber 39 or 100 and in particular caliber GUB 49 (e.g. Reference number 49-05-01-02-04). Also the Panoramadatum option is very nice at GO watches, with the observer and seventies series being the most desirable for me! Or look for some rare R. MÜHLE & SOHN, caliber RMK01. Tutima Tempostopp not to forget.

Some Nomos caliber (alpha) may be simply redesigns of Pesseux 7001. The neomatik caliber is quite new and slim, but having owned two of them, I was never really impressed.


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## Watchman Dan

LostnITime said:


> The neomatik caliber is quite new and slim, but having owned two of them, I was never really impressed.


Oh my! I sense an upset to Nomos afficianos ....


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## CM HUNTER

ronkatct said:


> Old thread. I was checking to see whether Made in Germany is as strict as Swiss Made and apparently it is.
> 
> I have a colleague who has a Lilienthal watch with Made in Germany label, but the price after discount suggests otherwise, Also, all my German watches have ETA 2824-2 which is Swiss. So assembled in Germany with mostly foreign parts can count as Made in Germany. That is good to know,
> 
> So if I want a true German, I would have to go for Nomos or A Lange.


So if you want true German what? There are plenty with German Made cases, German Made dials. A movement is only part of a watch. Damasko does in-house. Muhle swaps out the entire regulation system for their own. Not hard to find "true German" really.


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## Mediocre

I wonder what @Guest from 2006 thinks 🤔


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