# New Basel 2017 Zenith El primero 38mm 36000vh models



## Lewis Pang

Hi guys,

I'm very new here and I already made a thread regarding Zenith, but in the process of researching this watch, I realized that Zenith had released new models for the 38mm El Primero for Basel 2017 and thought it might be helpful for you guys if you did not know!


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## EnderW

Thanks. Last one remains my fave - tri-color classic. But nice to see 38 mm range expanded. Seems like no-brainer from fit perspective.

I like new overlap, but at the same time like my existing 38mm tri-color and won't "upgrade". Like removal of Automatic, but miss 36000 vph


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## elchicomalo

I wonder how it would look if they made the 'el primero' in the old cursive style


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## El-Duderino

I like them a lot. Why so many though, Zenith? I thought they were trying to trim the size of their catalogue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Level.5x

elchicomalo said:


> I wonder how it would look if they made the 'el primero' in the old cursive style


For some reason, I'm not a fan of that cursive...so for me, I'm happy with them leaving that alone. I think the "EL PRIMERO" print could be a tad smaller, but it's probably best to have it match the Zenith font if it's going to be directly below it. But I would shrink the font a tad more so "El Primero" is not so synonymous with the brand name....even though they technically are.



El-Duderino said:


> I like them a lot. Why so many though, Zenith? I thought they were trying to trim the size of their catalogue?


I agree...I don't mind the blue option but the medium grey dial that camouflages the minute sub-dial feels redundant to the popular silver version and the 2 gold-tone watches is too much. Maybe just go with the solid gold case and dump the gold bezel only version. We seriously did not need this many options! It must be frustrating for an A.D. to _want_ to stock all available options but knowing some will inevitably sit in inventory purgatory for years.


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## Level.5x

EnderW said:


> Thanks. Last one remains my fave - tri-color classic. But nice to see 38 mm range expanded. Seems like no-brainer from fit perspective.
> 
> I like new overlap, but at the same time like my existing 38mm tri-color and won't "upgrade". Like removal of Automatic, but miss 36000 vph


I wish it had 36000 vph too. 

Looking at the two versions now side-by-side, they definitely made some tweaks and I would say the over-arching theme of the changes is "simplify".

For reference, Previous version(left) and New version(right):















The individual seconds and .5hr hash marks are now gone. 36000 vph and Automatic are gone. And they painted the chrono sub-dial hands red....which I'm still unsure of. Since I was totally happy and ready to buy the current version, I really didn't want to see this many changes. And the more I compare the "look" of those sub-dials, I still like the bolder, more aggressive size of the current/old sub-dial design. The new version which is clearly truer to the original sub-dial size and overlap from 1969, feels a little less charming but cleaner.

I hope Zenith didn't darken the silver sunburst dial. Looking at both pics side-by-side, you can really tell the new rendering is a little dull. I'm hoping when we see one in the flesh, it will have that pop we expect from this awesome watch!


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## elchicomalo

Nice observations and thanks for pointing them out, loving mine even more ✌


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## k.och

Lewis Pang said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm very new here and I already made a thread regarding Zenith, but in the process of researching this watch, I realized that Zenith had released new models for the 38mm El Primero for Basel 2017 and thought it might be helpful for you guys if you did not know!


Finally the silver dial one has a decent render! Awesome! Can't wait to pick one up once they're available! 

OP, did Zenith say anything about when the new ones are going to be released?


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## Lewis Pang

So I talked to the zenith representative via email and they said that they are already being released now and deliveries are now beginning to go to AD's  I can't wait to pick mine up soon! They really could of communicated this alot better though! There was no news at Basel 2017!


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## dafuture

Does anyone else feel like these look a little too...busy... in comparison to the originals? I like the 38mm size, but for some reason these look like they have a little too much extra "bling" to my eyes.


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## Lewis Pang

dafuture said:


> Does anyone else feel like these look a little too...busy... in comparison to the originals? I like the 38mm size, but for some reason these look like they have a little too much extra "bling" to my eyes.


The new ones are too busy? I would have thought that these are far more simpler as they have removed the automatic and 36000, taken away the individual seconds and also made the subdials more legible to read


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## Level.5x

dafuture said:


> Does anyone else feel like these look a little too...busy... in comparison to the originals? I like the 38mm size, but for some reason these look like they have a little too much extra "bling" to my eyes.


Totally oposite, I think...they simplified things. Sure, youre looking at the right one??


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## carlhaluss

Very, very interesting, and thank you for pointing this out. I had no idea. I really like the new overlap of the subdials, now each one is readable throughout. To me, the dial looks less cluttered. And the simple "El Primero" says it all for me.

I must say that since I bought my first Zenith - a Pilot Type 20 Extra Special - I have started to research the product line a lot more. The El Primero 38mm has really become my favorite chronograph of any brand.


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## PuYang

Thank you for posting this!

Does anyone have more details on these new models? I can't find any of these models when looking at Zenith's Basel 2017 releases.

I think I still like the original silver dial, but definitely prefer the new version (cleaner look with smaller subdials and original overlap). The photos in the original post has the reference numbers, but the Silver dial version is still listed as the old reference number?

I'm planning to buy one a year from now for my 30th birthday. I guess by then more information would be released. But I can't wait! Need info!!


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## k.och

Looks like there's another contender? What a stunner.


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## watchuseekuser2015

k.och said:


> Looks like there's another contender? What a stunner.


The Jean Claude Biver influence on Zenith is unmistakable.


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## carlhaluss

I keep looking at these models and still the one I like best is the original configuration with the newer subdials etc. They are all beautiful. I am considering getting a gold watch at some point, and thought maybe this would be the one, but I would rather have the stainless steel model with the brown strap.


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## wuhan_clan

Never really like any kind of skeleton dials unless you have pleasant contrast between all the parts of a finished movement. There is just way too much gray going on in those.


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## simplymod

OMG, Thanks for the post. This new version is so much better IMO. From a vintage watch fan, the new subdial layout (tops overlapping bottom) is much more faithful to the original 1969 model. Bravo Zenith!


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## Lewis Pang

So I've been invited to a Zenith night at Watches of Switzerland in their largest store in London and they will showcase all the new models etc, this is happening in a few weeks so I'll take photos of all the new models and show you guys too!


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## Lewis Pang

I've had a few further correspondences with Zenith and they said that with the original silver dial with multi coloured subdials that the model number is not being changed, but that they are slowly rolling them out to ADs, and phasing out the old models. If you are interested in getting an updated model then the head office can send one out to a local AD. 

Zenith really do have a great customer service! Cant fault them at all!


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## simplymod

Lewis Pang said:


> So I've been invited to a Zenith night at Watches of Switzerland in their largest store in London and they will showcase all the new models etc, this is happening in a few weeks so I'll take photos of all the new models and show you guys too!


Thanks That would be awesome! I look forward to seeing some real world pics.


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## k.och

Lewis Pang said:


> I've had a few further correspondences with Zenith and they said that with the original silver dial with multi coloured subdials that the model number is not being changed, but that they are slowly rolling them out to ADs, and phasing out the old models. If you are interested in getting an updated model then the head office can send one out to a local AD.
> 
> Zenith really do have a great customer service! Cant fault them at all!


Basically what my AD said as well. Not in a hurry, really, but I should be getting first dibs when one arrives. Lol.

Also, I might be visiting the UK next month. Might browse some stores over there as well. Wondering how much discount I can expect, with VAT taken off (Not sure if this kind of discussion is acceptable in the forum btw. Apologies in advance if it isn't.)?


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## b-lot

dafuture said:


> Does anyone else feel like these look a little too...busy... in comparison to the originals? I like the 38mm size, but for some reason these look like they have a little too much extra "bling" to my eyes.


I agree. My main dislike are the red hands on the chronograph subdials. They should be a more subdued colour with the second hand the only one that really stands out IMO. I also prefer, at least aesthetically, the dials having more overlap on the older version.

I do see the sense in having the hour dial below the other two and like the removal of the 36.000 vph.


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## k.och

A guy on a Facebook watch group I frequent just posted a photo of the skeleton 38mm with the updated subdials. What a stunner.


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## vexXed

To add to this, on the Zenith website the 42mm Elite 6150 models are gone and replaced with the new Elite Classics in 39mm. In addition to the pic below it comes in White dial/Rose Gold case and Brown dial/Rose Gold case.

They use the Elite 679 movement so I'm not sure what's in store for the Elite 6150 movement with bigger power reserve.

I really liked the 42mm Elite 6150 but when I tried it on I felt it was too big for this style of watch. These classic ones are perfect at 39mm.









There are also 2 new Elite Chronograph Classic dials, still in 42mm - Black dial/Steel case and Brown dial/Rose Gold case.


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## omeglycine

The 6150 would have easily fit within the 39mm case. That would have made for a very compelling offering from Zenith. Feels like the 6150 might be heading for the scrap heap, but then again, the Elite was as well a few years back. Zenith reversed course then, and hopefully we will see the 6150 in more watches soon.


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## simplymod

Interestingly Zenith has also now updated it's site for the 38mm El Primero showing the new colors, but for some reason when clicking through the 4 dial / case color options, the classic silver dial still shows the old model while the others are the new one (see link). I assume just an oversight, either that or they will keep sending out old models to ADs until stock is depleted down before releasing the updated one, hmmm..

Zenith El Primero Original 1969 - Luxury chronograph watch


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## Level.5x

simplymod said:


> Interestingly Zenith has also now updated it's site for the 38mm El Primero showing the new colors, but for some reason when clicking through the 4 dial / case color options, the classic silver dial still shows the old model while the others are the new one (see link). I assume just an oversight, either that or they will keep sending out old models to ADs until stock is depleted down before releasing the updated one, hmmm..
> 
> Zenith El Primero Original 1969 - Luxury chronograph watch


The small pic of the "new" silver dial 38mm tri-color looks a lot better than the early rendering on page 1 of this thread. As i suspected, the first rendering was shot in low exposure for some reason. Looking at that pic on Zenith's website, the new version looks perfect to me...well, except I wish it kept the 36000 vph, fully hashed running seconds sub-dial, and all black painted sub-dial hands(not red). Still cant wait to own this watch! Im patiently waiting on that call from the AD!


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## k.och

Level.5x said:


> The small pic of the "new" silver dial 38mm tri-color looks a lot better than the early rendering on page 1 of this thread. As i suspected, the first rendering was shot in low exposure for some reason. Looking at that pic on Zenith's website, the new version looks perfect to me...well, except I wish it kept the 36000 vph, fully hashed running seconds sub-dial, and all black painted sub-dial hands(not red). Still cant wait to own this watch! Im patiently waiting on that call from the AD!


Good eye!


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## WTSP

omeglycine said:


> The 6150 would have easily fit within the 39mm case. That would have made for a very compelling offering from Zenith. Feels like the 6150 might be heading for the scrap heap, but then again, the Elite was as well a few years back. Zenith reversed course then, and hopefully we will see the 6150 in more watches soon.


Let's hope the 6150 is headed to wherever Charles Vermont hid the El Primero. 

I've spent the past week in Switzerland and saw the 6150 in most boutiques that carried Zenith. I bet that it's likely to stay on the market for some time just with the current stock.


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## tacotom

Is this updating to the 42mm versions as well? I really need to head to an AD because i want to get a feel for each size, also am anxiously awaiting some news of the Heritage 146 to start showing up places. Really like the look of the blue:


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## tacotom

Ah, i am seeing some of the 42mm models updated, but not all. Hopefully just rolling out the images now.


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## lxxrr

Release date / AD's offering discounts?


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## k.och

lxxrr said:


> Release date / AD's offering discounts?


Some ADs already have these in store. Better ring up your AD for availablity


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## lxxrr

k.och said:


> Some ADs already have these in store. Better ring up your AD for availablity


Crap. I'm on it tomorrow! 
Does anyone know if the new model silver dial has a different model no? 
Thanks!


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## cadomniel

tacotom said:


> Is this updating to the 42mm versions as well? I really need to head to an AD because i want to get a feel for each size, also am anxiously awaiting some news of the Heritage 146 to start showing up places. Really like the look of the blue:
> View attachment 11933346


really like this blue Heritage 146..
Love the original 1969 as well...


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## Level.5x

This is the most annoying response I've ever seen...









Being that we're in June, could a response like "second part of this year" be any less informative?? Lol

I'll admit this is the first time I've ever waited for a watch release so maybe this is par for the course? Really hoping my AD calls me this month with an updated silver dial 38mm but this makes me think it'll be July before it's available.


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## Lewis Pang

Level.5x said:


> This is the most annoying response I've ever seen...
> 
> View attachment 12027714
> 
> 
> Being that we're in June, could a response like "second part of this year" be any less informative?? Lol
> 
> I'll admit this is the first time I've ever waited for a watch release so maybe this is par for the course? Really hoping my AD calls me this month with an updated silver dial 38mm but this makes me think it'll be July before it's available.


Hey! This has actually been released in the UK already - Zenith El Primero 36'000 VPH Men's Watch | 0109122 | Beaverbrooks the Jewellers


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## Lewis Pang

lxxrr said:


> Crap. I'm on it tomorrow!
> Does anyone know if the new model silver dial has a different model no?
> Thanks!


It's the same model number!


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## Level.5x

Lewis Pang said:


> Hey! This has actually been released in the UK already - Zenith El Primero 36'000 VPH Men's Watch | 0109122 | Beaverbrooks the Jewellers


Have you ordered yours? ADs may be taking orders but it doesnt sound like any deliveries have been made...yet.


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## phil h

Level.5x said:


> Have you ordered yours? ADs may be taking orders but it doesnt sound like any deliveries have been made...yet.


They are available in ADs, I have tried on the new and old 38mm greys and blues on leather and bracelet in the last 2 weeks.

EDIT- in U.K. ADs


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## k.och

Heading to Europe in a couple of weeks. Wonder if the updated silver dial is already out there. Might just have a try on when there is one, and pick it up from my AD afterwards. Not really in a hurry... probably. :-d :-! Also keen on seeing the skeleton 38mm Chronomaster and the Grande Date Full Open.

Wondering if prices are any better over there with VAT off. (Curious... do I get an AD discount + VAT off?) Hitting up London, Paris, Berlin, and Zurich.


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## handsoverfist

What I heard from a Zenith brand representative is that Zenith is pursuing a policy of 38-42-45mm case size in almost all product line/dial variation. Biver initiative similar to what he did with TAG Heuer and Hublot. Allows for maximum consumer choice (and the brand to work out what their true target market is). 

I love those downsized 39mm Elites. Have the chrono at 42mm and often think about moving it on as my wrist at 6.5 inch is slightly too small. Will see how I feel when the AD starts stocking those.

As for the 38mm EP, wish, too, the red hands weren't red.. Otherwise, great updates throughout!


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## Siggyboy

I doubt prices would be better in Europe, even with no VAT, but selection is probably better. Some of the updated models are available in London but I have not seen them yet in Germany. You should be able to haggle with an AD for a discount and get VAT off as well. VAT in Germany is 19%. Similar in France. Switzerland has the worst reputation for prices.


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## Lewis Pang

Guys - the new original 1969 with updated subdials in silver, will be released in July. I have placed a pre-order and so should have it in July, I had to send my AD a picture of the new updated version! Will post pics when I get it


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## mykii

Lewis Pang said:


> So I've been invited to a Zenith night at Watches of Switzerland in their largest store in London and they will showcase all the new models etc, this is happening in a few weeks so I'll take photos of all the new models and show you guys too!


Please come back with 146 pics!


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## Loxx

I've just put a deposit down on one of these updated models. The AD will be contacting Zenith tomorrow to better determine an ETA for me.


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## lxxrr

Level.5x said:


> This is the most


Ha! I was the guy who asked


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## Loxx

My AD has informed me that my new subdial original 1969 will be in this week!


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## ispeshaled

Thanks for the pics! The new EP with new sub dials will likely be my next chrono piece.


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## k.och

Loxx said:


> My AD has informed me that my new subdial original 1969 will be in this week!


You mean the silver one?! POST PICS!

Came back from Europe recently... They still have the old-style silver dial 38mm El Primeros in stock, but they also have the new-dial blue and dark grey dials available. Am a big fan of the new layout. Can't wait!


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## yessir69

Thanks for posting. The blue wasn't even on my radar. Now it is. Let the madness continue!

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


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## Loxx

k.och said:


> Loxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> My AD has informed me that my new subdial original 1969 will be in this week!
> 
> 
> 
> You mean the silver one?! POST PICS!
> 
> Came back from Europe recently... They still have the old-style silver dial 38mm El Primeros in stock, but they also have the new-dial blue and dark grey dials available. Am a big fan of the new layout. Can't wait!
Click to expand...

Yes the silver dial. Unfortunately, they haven't gotten back to me... Hopefully they will this week. There's another thread here where someone did manage to get one though!


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## Level.5x

My silver dial EP shipped on Friday...Next Day Air so I'm patiently waiting for it to arrive by 10:30AM tomorrow morning....Feels like Christmas Eve.


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## k.och

OMG, both of you post photos! :-!:-!:-!

In other news... just got myself a Navitimer 01 recently to keep me company while I wait *facepalm*


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## Lewis Pang

My new watch I've received with the updated subdials! - I was thinking of brushing the centre links though as it is quite shiny...


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## Level.5x

Mine arrived this morning just before 10:30...




























Such an amazing piece!! I think it fits my wrist perfectly. Love the croc strap too...the buckle it comes with is ultra secure.


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## Level.5x

Some better shots...



















I absolutely love the red paint they added to the chrono sub-dial hands and Im also just taken back by the shiny reflection all the indices and hands make when I move the watch around in the light. Just gorgeous.

Im also very pleased with sub-dial proportions and lesser overlap.

And the movement and rotor is everything I remembered when I originally saw an EP at a Local GTG....just as beauiful as the front.


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## Level.5x

Couldnt help but try the Bulang straps I bought over a month ago for this watch and boy did I hit it out of the park with this 'Blue Ink" strap!!





































Added bonus is that I went with a 20mm strap which fits due to the spongy nature of JPM's leather and second bonus is the awesome Zenith clasp fits perfectly.

Im really impressed how secure Zenith made this watch on your wrist...a.) i swear the spring bars have a longer spring which helps it stay in the holes and b.) The 'butterfly' clasp is really a hybrid tang buckle/butterfly clasp...ill take pics of this later but basically, this watch isnt going to fall off your wrist.


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## El-Duderino

Level.5x said:


> Couldnt help but try the Bulang straps I bought over a month ago for this watch and boy did I hit it out of the park with this 'Blue Ink" strap!!
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> Added bonus is that I went with a 20mm strap which fits due to the spongy nature of JPM's leather and second bonus is the awesome Zenith clasp fits perfectly.
> 
> Im really impressed how secure Zenith made this watch on your wrist...a.) i swear the spring bars have a longer spring which helps it stay in the holes and b.) The 'butterfly' clasp is really a hybrid tang buckle/butterfly clasp...ill take pics of this later but basically, this watch isnt going to fall off your wrist.


What size are your wrists? I've been contemplating the new dial EPs and that would give me an idea of how the 38mm wears.

Looks great btw!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Level.5x

6.75". If my wrists were at least 7", than I'd definitely try on both the 38mm and 42mm as I'd consider that the crossover point. But I know for a fact, the 42mm was too large for me. You have the Classic Cars version right? Have you tried the 38mm before?



El-Duderino said:


> What size are your wrists? I've been contemplating the new dial EPs and that would give me an idea of how the 38mm wears.
> 
> Looks great btw!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Southtown57

Hmm like the watch but 38mm would be too small for me.


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## El-Duderino

Level.5x said:


> 6.75". If my wrists were at least 7", than I'd definitely try on both the 38mm and 42mm as I'd consider that the crossover point. But I know for a fact, the 42mm was too large for me. You have the Classic Cars version right? Have you tried the 38mm before?


Yup, Classic Cars and Boutique Chronomaster. Both 42mm and I am thinking of adding a 38mm to the mix.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## k.och

Level.5x said:


> 6.75". If my wrists were at least 7", than I'd definitely try on both the 38mm and 42mm as I'd consider that the crossover point. But I know for a fact, the 42mm was too large for me. You have the Classic Cars version right? Have you tried the 38mm before?


I have a 7" wrist. Tried on both the 38mm and 42mm in Paris when I was on holiday. 42mm felt too big. 38mm had that vintage feel -definitely prefer that, as I already have my 42mm Speedmaster. Changes things up.
















My AD told me they should have this within the month. Should be worth the wait from the photos. Nice pieces, guys!


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## Level.5x

k.och said:


> I have a 7" wrist. Tried on both the 38mm and 42mm in Paris when I was on holiday. 42mm felt too big. 38mm had that vintage feel -definitely prefer that, as I already have my 42mm Speedmaster. Changes things up.
> 
> My AD told me they should have this within the month. Should be worth the wait from the photos. Nice pieces, guys!


Is it just me or do those two watches look identical in size??! That blue one has to be the 38mm but it fits your wrist just like the 42mm version. Very confused by this...:-s

Hope you're able to get one soon!


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## Level.5x

A few shots from today....a couple new strap pairings... and a few macro shots for your viewing pleasure!

Some observations about the Zenith strap - The OEM brown croc strap is really well made but it's a little thin given the thickness of the watch. When I put on the JPM straps that are a little thicker, they "fit" the thickness of the watch a little better in my opinion. That's my only dislike of the brown croc. The rubber backing on the OEM strap is really neat. It's a lot ....fancier(?).... than say, those Hirsch Performance series straps that have thick, tread-like rubber backings. This OEM strap has rubber backing but still looks and feels like a dressy band. Personally, I don't find those Hirsch bands very attractive and they definitely don't make any watch look dressier, which this Zenith OEM croc band does. In addition to the brown strap, the clasp, is just aces! The beauty of getting the Zenith on the strap, is even if you switch to another band, you get to keep using this lovely clasp which is 10x as nice as the best aftermarket butterfly deployant clasp you can buy. It's super secure as it utilizes two holes on the strap for a solid connection. Don't underestimate how nice this clasp is. While I'll always be fitting new bands to my EP, the clasp will always be used going forward!

























BandR Bands Vintage Racing Strap...









JPM Piombo Grey strap...









Bas & Lokes padded brown "Brahm" strap...


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## WTSP

My first generation Original 1969 says hello. 
Have you checked whether you have the new generation of silicon escapement parts? I would guess that you do.


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## k.och

Level.5x said:


> k.och said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 7" wrist. Tried on both the 38mm and 42mm in Paris when I was on holiday. 42mm felt too big. 38mm had that vintage feel -definitely prefer that, as I already have my 42mm Speedmaster. Changes things up.
> 
> My AD told me they should have this within the month. Should be worth the wait from the photos. Nice pieces, guys!
> 
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> Is it just me or do those two watches look identical in size??! That blue one has to be the 38mm but it fits your wrist just like the 42mm version. Very confused by this...
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> Hope you're able to get one soon!
Click to expand...

Must be the different angles that make them look similar. And yes, the blue one is 38mm.


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## Level.5x

WTSP said:


> My first generation Original 1969 says hello.
> Have you checked whether you have the new generation of silicon escapement parts? I would guess that you do.


I looked but I don't see any evidence of this...I just took a macro shot of the escapement wheel and it doesn't appear blueish so my guess is no, but I'm not a movement expert by any means...

See?


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## WTSP

Level.5x said:


> I looked but I don't see any evidence of this...I just took a macro shot of the escapement wheel and it doesn't appear blueish so my guess is no, but I'm not a movement expert by any means...
> 
> See?
> 
> View attachment 12398691


Hmm, it looks as if you have the traditional jeweled pallet fork and metallic escape wheel. That's a pretty good photo at a tough angle. I can only see mine properly with a loupe.

I doubt that there is really any functional difference between having the metallic or silicon parts. After all, many of the original escapements are still going strong since the seventies. Silicon does have a certain aesthetic value in the open heart models, but on a regular dial it's invisible.

In the end it's original escapement parts to match an original subdial configuration. It's a traditionalists' El Primero in a sense, which isn't a bad thing.


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## k.och

By the way, to those who got theirs in already: I know the lug end is 19mm, what's the width of the buckle end? 16mm? Thanks


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## Loxx

For anyone still waiting for one of these, I'll fill you in on my current situation. 

Topper is the jeweler I've chosen to work with and they told me they got one in, but sold it to someone who ordered a month or two before me. Since then, they have not been able to get any more and have even tried buying several of the old dials to try and force some of the new dial stock into their hands. Apparently Zenith was not releasing new dials until supplies of the old were depleted. That would have worked well, but apparently the entire company went on vacation last week or something long those lines. For that reason, delivery has been delayed, but Topper has gone above and beyond to keep my business! 

Can't wait to show you guys some nice pictures when it does come in.


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## Level.5x

k.och said:


> By the way, to those who got theirs in already: I know the lug end is 19mm, what's the width of the buckle end? 16mm? Thanks


The OEM strap is 19mm tapered to 16mm. It's 110mm/75mm in length. The strap is actually a little long since it's so thin. I'm on the first hole with 6.75" wrist so I'm not sure how it works for someone with smaller wrists unless you punch more holes.


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## Oak tree89

Hello Level.5x,

You mentioned that the strap is pretty thin twice now, so i'm now reconsidering whether I should get the Zenith on strap and opt for the bracelet version and buy an aftermarket custom strap from Camille Fournet who I heard make the Zenith straps too.

I phoned them up today and they told me that the thickness of the zenith strap was 3.5mm, would you recommend making the custom strap slightly thicker then? maybe 4mm?


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## Level.5x

Oak tree89 said:


> Hello Level.5x,
> 
> You mentioned that the strap is pretty thin twice now, so i'm now reconsidering whether I should get the Zenith on strap and opt for the bracelet version and buy an aftermarket custom strap from Camille Fournet who I heard make the Zenith straps too.
> 
> I phoned them up today and they told me that the thickness of the zenith strap was 3.5mm, would you recommend making the custom strap slightly thicker then? maybe 4mm?


I think if you go thicker, you risk loosing the dressier look of a thin crocodile strap. Personally, the thin croc strap makes the watch wear a little top heavy for me on the wrist. I don't know if that's just because it's not "broken in" around my wrist bones. If I were to need a suit & tie option tomorrow though, I'd put the EP back on the OEM strap since it's very dressy.

















See how the lugs protrude on the OEM croc strap whereas the lugs just flow in to the curvature of the JPM strap? It just looks nicer, I think. Again, don't know if this is because the OEM strap is not properly broken in or if it's just the .5mm difference in thickness between the 3.5mm that Zenith quoted you and what the JPMs are(about 4mm).


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## k.och

Level.5x said:


> The OEM strap is 19mm tapered to 16mm. It's 110mm/75mm in length. The strap is actually a little long since it's so thin. I'm on the first hole with 6.75" wrist so I'm not sure how it works for someone with smaller wrists unless you punch more holes.
> 
> View attachment 12404487
> 
> 
> View attachment 12404493
> 
> 
> View attachment 12404499


Perfect! That means I get to use the OEM deployant clasp on aftermarket straps.  Thanks!

Already got my strap in... just waiting for the watch. Lol. Can't wait! 

I actually work the leather straps up a bit before wearing them, so they conform to the shape of my wrist right away. Wears more comfortably for me that way.


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## k.och

As I wait for the watch to arrive, I'm getting more and more tempted by this one... Talk me out of this one LOL


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## Level.5x

k.och said:


> As I wait for the watch to arrive, I'm getting more and more tempted by this one... Talk me out of this one LOL


I wouldn't do it...

The EP is an awesome movement, don't get me wrong, but it's not decorated. A lot of the surfaces are just plain brushed metal. It's nice that the movement is visible from the back, but there is simply too much non-finished areas on the front of this skeleton dial. I also don't like how just the one sub-dial at 3 o clock stands out on its own. The other two disappear in to the background. Furthermore, I don't really care for the date wheel either. This skeleton EP is a novel idea, but it's not well executed imo. If they were to make a skeleton EP, I think the finishing on the movement needs to take a huge step up....which would also drive the price way up.

The one thing I do really like about this skeleton version though, is the outer minute/hour index track. A lot of skeleton dials are very hard to read....however, this one is nice in that regard.


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## Lewis Pang

x2 on not doing that...

The new tricolor el primero level.5x and myself have got are absolutely amazing. It is a classic watch and one you won't get bored with, whereas I can see the skeleton dial as a watch where in the long term you will regret buying.


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## k.och

Made up my mind earlier and will be picking up the classic EP 1969. Lol. I agree with you both. I'm just finding the subdials and date wheel on the Skeleton version pretty cool. I don't think the design would age well, though. Once the novelty wears off, I'll probably wish I got the classic EP 1969 anyway. 

Thanks guys.


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## Hartmut Richter

Personally, I abhor these new "skeletized" watches too. They don't really look anything like the old ones with their "baroque" engraving - they look so industrial, just like an unfinished building site! Just like a house at the "framework" stage - completely rudimentary. As if they were transitional, never meant to end up that way.....

Still, each to his own.....

Hartmut Richter


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## RSubmariner

Is there any kind of micro adjustment on OEM EP38mm bracelet?


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## WTSP

Looks like the "dink" has taken note of the new models. The review reads more like a creative writing piece in which the author walks a line between the positive and negative without committing to either, while amusing himself with terms like "cavil". His compliments are backhanded and he whisks aside his own criticisms but only after making them. In any case, it's good to see Zenith get some press for a great line of models.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-zenith-el-primero-chronomaster-38mm


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## Level.5x

WTSP said:


> Looks like the "dink" has taken note of the new models. The review reads more like a creative writing piece in which the author walks a line between the positive and negative without committing to either, while amusing himself with terms like "cavil". His compliments are backhanded and he whisks aside his own criticisms but only after making them. In any case, it's good to see Zenith get some press for a great line of models.
> 
> https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-zenith-el-primero-chronomaster-38mm


I agree...kind of a fluff piece with no real passion or care. Not that im looking for any gushing review but this article lacked substance...

I completely disagree with the writer's comments on the deployant clasp...I dont think its too large for the watch at all...that whole critique was a stretch if you ask me.

Also confused by the models shown...arent ALL the new Chronomasters supposed to have the 3 and 9 o clock subdials in the foreground?? Why does the dark grey piece not have this...

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## WTSP

Level.5x said:


> I agree...kind of a fluff piece with no real passion or care. Not that im looking for any gushing review but this article lacked substance...
> 
> I completely disagree with the writer's comments on the deployant clasp...I dont think its too large for the watch at all...that whole critique was a stretch if you ask me.
> 
> Also confused by the models shown...arent ALL the new Chronomasters supposed to have the 3 and 9 o clock subdials in the foreground?? Why does the dark grey piece not have this...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


What you say about the article is very true. I found it strange that've picked on the watch for being 12.5 mm in thickness. Sure that's thick for a 38 mm watch, but it's rare to find an automatic chronograph watch that's in the 12 mm range. This is mainly because the Valjoux is so thick and because most chronos are sport watches. They're rarely thinner than 13 mm. The exceptions are watches like the AP RO or PP Nautilus chronos that are around 11 mm, so I'll give the author that. However, generally speaking El Primero based watches tend to be comparatively thin.

Concerning the dial layouts, Zenith seems to like to mix things around these days without being consistent. I hope that at the very least the model numbers will be distinct between the types of overlap.


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## Level.5x

WTSP said:


> What you say about the article is very true. I found it strange that've picked on the watch for being 12.5 mm in thickness. Sure that's thick for a 38 mm watch, but it's rare to find an automatic chronograph watch that's in the 12 mm range. This is mainly because the Valjoux is so thick and because most chronos are sport watches. They're rarely thinner than 13 mm. The exceptions are watches like the AP RO or PP Nautilus chronos that are around 11 mm, so I'll give the author that. However, generally speaking El Primero based watches tend to be comparatively thin.
> 
> Concerning the dial layouts, Zenith seems to like to mix things around these days without being consistent. I hope that at the very least the model numbers will be distinct between the types of overlap.


I too have absolutely no quarrels with the EPs height, especially when you consider the fact that the crystal is at least 1mm tall on top and the watch has a display caseback. For anything, it gives the watch some much deserved wrist presence yet still fits under a cuff.

My only critique is the thickness of the strap. I think it needs to be thicker given the tapered lugs are relatively tall. Ive found the thickness of my JPM straps to be perfect.










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## tacotom

everytime i see this watch on a new strap i love it more and more. The new dial layout is really perfect


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## Hartmut Richter

Looking over the original post in this thread again and doing some research, I must say that I was marginally disappointed. The new blue dial version looks like one of the nicest of them all, apart from the silver dial version. When I hunt around the web for real life piccies, there aren't all that many and most or all look horrible: the watch has a sort of slight greenish sheen to it. I suspect that this is from the anti-glare coating on the crystal but it really ruins the look of the watch for me..... :-(

Hartmut Richter


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## Level.5x

Hartmut Richter said:


> Looking over the original post in this thread again and doing some research, I must say that I was marginally disappointed. The new blue dial version looks like one of the nicest of them all, apart from the silver dial version. When I hunt around the web for real life piccies, there aren't all that many and most or all look horrible: the watch has a sort of slight greenish sheen to it. I suspect that this is from the anti-glare coating on the crystal but it really ruins the look of the watch for me..... :-(
> 
> Hartmut Richter


This post confuses me...

1. The blue dial "looks like one of the nicest of them all, apart from the silver dial version"...So the silver dial is the nicest and blue is 2nd nicest?

2. You were marginally disappointed but most or all pics you see online look horrible? .....which is it? Marginally disappointing or HORRIBLE? 

3. I've yet to see a greenish tint with mine....blue? Yes. But not green...









I think this watch is still gorgeous...I liked the prior version and I like the new version!


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## Baxxxton

Is it me or is the new dial less greyish and more white looking than the old one?


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## JMann2380

Just a bit too small for me, need at least a 40mm.


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## WatchHoliday

Ordered mine this week... the waiting is the hardest part!


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## WTSP

Baxxxton said:


> Is it me or is the new dial less greyish and more white looking than the old one?


It's probably because the larger surface of the new dial makes the lighter colour stand out more.

Does the case shape look like it's changed slightly? I feel like the side of the case seems flatter in those pictures compare to the previous version of the O1969. Of course it might just be the pics.


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## Hartmut Richter

To clarify, take a look at the first few pictures in this link:

https://monochrome-watches.com/blue-new-black-zenith-5-iconic-pieces-now-dressed-blue/

I would not consider any of these to have a pure blue sheen to them. There is a green note in that colour which spoils the effect of the pure blue dial as far as I am concerned. *Marginally *disappointed? OK, so make that a "*moderately *disappointed", I don't care. I think that it really spoils the look of the watch, hence my disappointment. In any case, I haven't the funds for one of either version and, if I did, it would probably swing me all the more in favour of the silver version so I am not wildly mad about it. Nevertheless, I find it sad that my options would effectively be reduced from two down to one.

Hope that helps eliminate your confusion,

Hartmut Richter


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## k.och

WatchHoliday said:


> Ordered mine this week... the waiting is the hardest part!


Same here. It's been a couple of months on my end. Waiting sure is hard, but fortunately, I got some new-old pieces coming in to keep me occupied!


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## Level.5x

Hartmut Richter said:


> To clarify, take a look at the first few pictures in this link:
> 
> https://monochrome-watches.com/blue-new-black-zenith-5-iconic-pieces-now-dressed-blue/
> 
> I would not consider any of these to have a pure blue sheen to them. There is a green note in that colour which spoils the effect of the pure blue dial as far as I am concerned. *Marginally *disappointed? OK, so make that a "*moderately *disappointed", I don't care. I think that it really spoils the look of the watch, hence my disappointment. In any case, I haven't the funds for one of either version and, if I did, it would probably swing me all the more in favour of the silver version so I am not wildly mad about it. Nevertheless, I find it sad that my options would effectively be reduced from two down to one.
> 
> Hope that helps eliminate your confusion,
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Yes, it does. That is a weird couple of photos though and I can see your point about the greenish tint. Would they have opted to use a different color sapphire crystal because of the all blue dial?? Or did the photographer just mess with their filters/effects when editing the photo? My best guess is it's the latter. Besides the Rolex Milgauss...I can't think of any other prominent green sapphire being used. The crystal on my new Zenith EP is definitely blue though...


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## k.och

Just noticed that they already updated the dials on the silver 1969 on the website. I guess they sold off all their remaining old dials by now.


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## omeglycine

Level.5x said:


> Yes, it does. That is a weird couple of photos though and I can see your point about the greenish tint. Would they have opted to use a different color sapphire crystal because of the all blue dial?? Or did the photographer just mess with their filters/effects when editing the photo? My best guess is it's the latter. Besides the Rolex Milgauss...I can't think of any other prominent green sapphire being used. The crystal on my new Zenith EP is definitely blue though...


Well, your A/R coating on the crystal produces a blue color. That's very different from the actual crystal being colored (e.g., the green crystal on the Milgauss).


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## Level.5x

omeglycine said:


> Well, your A/R coating on the crystal produces a blue color. That's very different from the actual crystal being colored (e.g., the green crystal on the Milgauss).


Youre right! I forgot about the AR coating. Thats def where the blue is coming from

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## k.och

Good news... my 2017 silver dial EP 1969 just shipped. Should be here by next week. Can't wait!


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## Vural

Stainless steel with rose gold bezel looks so nice.


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## k.och

IT'S FINALLY HERE!!! MY FIRST ZENITH! SIMPLY A STUNNER IN PERSON! MY CAPS LOCK IS BROKEN!


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## k.och

Already swapped the alligator band for a racing strap. Brilliant rubber-lined alligator strap, btw!


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## omeglycine

Looks terrific. Congratulations.


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## Level.5x

k.och said:


> IT'S FINALLY HERE!!! MY FIRST ZENITH! SIMPLY A STUNNER IN PERSON! MY CAPS LOCK IS BROKEN!
> View attachment 12517929


Congrats k.och! Looks stunning.

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## Fantasio

Great combo! |>

I also tried rallye strap for a while, but yours looks much better.



k.och said:


> Already swapped the alligator band for a racing strap. Brilliant rubber-lined alligator strap, btw!


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## k.och

Thanks, guys. Sun's finally up... which means... more photos!


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## Level.5x

k.och said:


> Thanks, guys. Sun's finally up... which means... more photos!


I love how this watch works well with so many strap colors. Ive paired it with dark brown, light brown, blue, grey, and with the black ring around the min track, this helps compliment a black strap too!

Where's that racing strap from? I think ive only seen those by JPM or G.L.C. in Italy? Its a very cool vintage strap though. Would like to pick one up sometime.

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## k.och

Level.5x said:


> I love how this watch works well with so many strap colors. Ive paired it with dark brown, light brown, blue, grey, and with the black ring around the min track, this helps compliment a black strap too!
> 
> Where's that racing strap from? I think ive only seen those by JPM or G.L.C. in Italy? Its a very cool vintage strap though. Would like to pick one up sometime.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


It's from Bulang & Sons. Would've initially went for the Hodinkee version, but this one is cheaper and ships much faster. Needs to be broken in a bit but it's softer than your mainstream leather bands. The smaller adjustment holes don't play too nice with the Zenith deployant if you want to unbuckle it to readjust, though.


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## Jim44

Does anyone know if the the steel/gold version is gold-plated? "gold-filled"?


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## Hartmut Richter

I don't think that Zenith make any plated watches these days. On the website, this one is given as being 18K gold and steel (it states something about three case versions: "Stainless steel & 18-carat rose gold Steel & Rose Gold", on page:

Chronomaster El Primero - 38.00 38 mm

...and select the tab "Case, Dial and Hands").

Hartmut Richter


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## Jim44

Hartmut Richter said:


> I don't think that Zenith make any plated watches these days. On the website, this one is given as being 18K gold and steel (it states something about three case versions: "Stainless steel & 18-carat rose gold Steel & Rose Gold", on page:
> 
> Chronomaster El Primero - 38.00 38.mm
> 
> ...and select the tab "Case, Dial and Hands").
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thank you for the response Hartmut, that is very helpful

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## vincesf

Great thread, but in IMHO, some of you are a bit harsh on the skeleton 38mm version. I for one am very pleased that it is offered. 
As we approach the 50th Anniversary of 1969, I am hoping that Zenith introduces a 38mm version, even more similar to the original with the bold black outer counter, more similar subcounters without an outer multi-layered ring, and of course the El Primero in script.


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## Igk73

k.och said:


> IT'S FINALLY HERE!!! MY FIRST ZENITH! SIMPLY A STUNNER IN PERSON! MY CAPS LOCK IS BROKEN!
> View attachment 12517929


This is a great looking watch, congratulations!


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## WatchOutChicago

I think the 38mm EP is perfection. Here's mine on green!










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## Baxxxton

I would totally love to see the silver 38mm version on some kind of suede leather nato strap


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## madhatter77

Now that they have corrected the dial this watch is great, drool!

But I can't help myself: I think it would be even better if they added markers inbetween seconds. It would be nod to the capabilities of the movement (just like on the original). I don't think it would ruin the dial. And usually chronographs that take the chronograph function seriously (as opposed to "dress"/elegant chronographs) have fraction of a second markers. Yes I know we don't NEED a chronograph today in our lives. It's about internal legitimacy of design.

Nevertheless it is making me think of which watch to sell to fund the purchase of this one.


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## watchuseekuser2015

My understanding is that in 2017, Zenith modified the dial on the 38mm El Primero Chronomaster tri-color watch. Specifically, they removed the "36 000 VPH" script as the third line AND removed the overlapping subdials. Here's a comparison from the first page of this thread.









*However*, I came across this photo of an apparently new 2017 El Primero 38mm from Hodinkee. Note that the "36 000 VPH" script is removed, BUT it still has the overlapping subdials. What is this watch???


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## Alex_TA

watchuseekuser2015 said:


> My understanding is that in 2017, Zenith modified the dial on the 38mm El Primero Chronomaster tri-color watch. Specifically, they removed the "36 000 VPH" script as the third line AND removed the overlapping subdials. Here's a comparison from the first page of this thread.
> 
> View attachment 12702671
> 
> 
> *However*, I came across this photo of an apparently new 2017 El Primero 38mm from Hodinkee. Note that the "36 000 VPH" script is removed, BUT it still has the overlapping subdials. What is this watch???
> 
> View attachment 12702673


Some mix up in models in this thread, beginning from the headline.

38mm was never called VpH. It was always 42mm model with this name.

In 2017 Zenith made all 38mm's dials non-overlapping. Same about 42mm (former VpH), except gray and blue dials. That is, gold, tri-color and black on white models were changed, gray and blue for some reason not.

Look at Zenith website.

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## GreatLakesWatch

Alex_TA said:


> Some mix up in models in this thread, beginning from the headline.
> 
> 38mm was never called VpH. It was always 42mm model with this name.
> 
> In 2017 Zenith made all 38mm's dials non-overlapping. Same about 42mm (former VpH), except gray and blue dials. That is, gold, tri-color and black on white models were changed, gray and blue for some reason not.
> 
> Look at Zenith website.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have to disagree, as there are most certainly 38mm versions of the 1969 Original that have the 36 000 VpH on the dial.

As for the Hodinkee picture, I am not sure where that modification came from, but who knows what they do to their watches.


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## hub6152

38mm as tried on in the LVMH boutique only a few days ago.










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## Hartmut Richter

After all the discussions in the fora about this feature, maybe now, they are giving us the option.....?!! ;-)

Hartmut Richter


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## Level.5x

Alex_TA said:


> In 2017 Zenith made all 38mm's dials non-overlapping. Same about 42mm (former VpH), except gray and blue dials. That is, gold, tri-color and black on white models were changed, gray and blue for some reason not.


Here's a pic from Basel '17 though...









And from their Instagram...











GreatLakesWatch said:


> I have to disagree, as there are most certainly 38mm versions of the 1969 Original that have the 36 000 VpH on the dial.


Yes, this was prior to the most recent change to the overlap AND removal of VPH from the dial.

I think Zenith has made more tweaks to the EP lineup then we may have noticed over the last several years. Last year's Basel models were probably the most significant in recent years though and certainly caught most blogger's attention. Part of this issue lies with them not changing the reference # when they make these changes. For instance, even with the updated sub-dials, Zenith's reference #s did not change. Very confusing.


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## hub6152

The Basel world pieces are pre production prototypes that likely evolved before going into final production. 


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## Level.5x

hub6152 said:


> The Basel world pieces are pre production prototypes that likely evolved before going into final production.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Look at their website though...









This is the current model with the new subdial layout in 38mm. They updated all the sub-dial layouts including blue and grey versions. I have no idea why there are some models like the one you tried on that has the old sub-dial layout while they have others that have the changed sub-dial layout. The 38mm blue and grey dials are new as of 2017 so it's very confusing. The model you tried on probably has the exact same reference # as the version shown on their website with clearly different dial layouts.


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## Jim44

madhatter77 said:


> Now that they have corrected the dial this watch is great, drool!
> 
> But I can't help myself: I think it would be even better if they added markers inbetween seconds. It would be nod to the capabilities of the movement (just like on the original). I don't think it would ruin the dial. And usually chronographs that take the chronograph function seriously (as opposed to "dress"/elegant chronographs) have fraction of a second markers. Yes I know we don't NEED a chronograph today in our lives. It's about internal legitimacy of design.
> 
> Nevertheless it is making me think of which watch to sell to fund the purchase of this one.


I agree, would love to see Zenith put those markers in.

Your comment does make me wonder though, and maybe someone here with greater knowledge knows the answer: what kind of real-world precision is a mechanical chronically actually capable of?

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## EnderW

Jim44 said:


> I agree, would love to see Zenith put those markers in.
> 
> Your comment does make me wonder though, and maybe someone here with greater knowledge knows the answer: what kind of real-world precision is a mechanical chronically actually capable of?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting question in context of El Primero discussion.

With Striking 10th, El Primero was able to time events up to 1/10th of a second and since a second hand revolved around a dial every 10 seconds, so one could with precision measure up to 1/10th of s second, measuring those in easily distinguished intervals on main dial.

With new Cal 21 and Defy Lab - once could legitimately measure things to 1/100th of a second and be able to tell exactly where the chrono hand stopped. The only challenge is real time human reaction gap initiating and stopping the chronograph. So while a mechanical chronograph can measure 1/100th of a second, I expect it will not be used for olympic events where digital electronics have faster start\stop response than a human is capable of. But that is not a limitation of a mechanical watch, but rather of humans


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## Jim44

EnderW said:


> Interesting question in context of El Primero discussion.
> 
> With Striking 10th, El Primero was able to time events up to 1/10th of a second and since a second hand revolved around a dial every 10 seconds, so one could with precision measure up to 1/10th of s second, measuring those in easily distinguished intervals on main dial.
> 
> With new Cal 21 and Defy Lab - once could legitimately measure things to 1/100th of a second and be able to tell exactly where the chrono hand stopped. The only challenge is real time human reaction gap initiating and stopping the chronograph. So while a mechanical chronograph can measure 1/100th of a second, I expect it will not be used for olympic events where digital electronics have faster start\stop response than a human is capable of. But that is not a limitation of a mechanical watch, but rather of humans


Thanks for that insight, that's very interesting. Do you happen to know if there would (or could) be any appreciable delay or distortion due to the mechanics of the watch? For example any delay or "play" between pressing the button and the chrono hand engaging? I wish I could ask the question more intelligently, but I know very little about how mechanical movements function, let alone chronographs.

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## simplymod

It's my understanding (like other members noted) that the current production (2017) 38mm all have the new dial layout yet all the ref numbers remain the same. The issue here is there are plenty of ADs and Grey market dealers with the prior dial model in stock and many of them are likely not even aware of the change, so unless you are buying in person or get real live pics of the watch, either dial could show up.


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## ajn3323

To echo a bit of same earlier - imakes it even more of a challenge, the dial changes appear to have been blended in, where they first removed the 36k vph and automatic off the dial - before they redid the subdials to correct the overlap. 


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## Bigsim

Hi! I'm a bit confused about the different colours/models and subdial layouts (as it seems others are). I've fallen in love with both the blue dial and dark grey 42mm versions and have seen both colours in the flesh a few times, where they've all had the same (old, overlapping) subdial layout.

I've come across a few pictures online recently though, of the other colours with a non-overlapping layout (one of which is from Zenith's Instagram):


__
http://instagr.am/p/BbOMPM9lZ7u/

Does this watch actually exist? Can anyone shed some light onto what's going on here?! I'd love the updated version if it exists, though I suspect it doesn't...


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## Hartmut Richter

Right, here comes my 15000th post. On the Zenith forum, of course.....

I have no definite informations so this is just a hunch. Nevertheless, I can observe the following:

1. The start of the introduction of the "old new" subdial layout started with the silver dial "Original 1969" in 38mm. At that time, the 42mm model still had the "intermediate" layout even in the silver coloured dial version

2. The "old new" layout has by now reached the other 38mm dial colours

3. On the Zenith website, the current collection shows that the 42mm versions also have the "old new" layout in the silver dial versions as well as the black case, black dial version - but not the blue or grey versions

On the basis of that, I suspect that the transition is gradual and will eventually reach all models. The 42mm blue dial versions may be one of the last. The link you gave shows that these are now getting that layout too but I think the Zenith website hasn't caught up yet. You will probably see both versions in the shops at the current time if you search hard enough, eventually the "old new" layout will be the only one available.

Hartmut Richter


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## Bigsim

Awesome, appreciate the input. I'm not in any great rush, so I guess I'll keep my eyes open and if/when I see one of the "old new" layouts in a colour I want, I'll be ready to strike!


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