# L&R cleaning solutions residue



## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2019)

I recently bit the bullet and splashed out on L&R Extra Fine cleaning fluid and the #3 Rinse, after growing tired of the lacklustre results I was getting with my home made solutions. I've also just started using an early Elma SE cleaning machine that I restored.

Imagine my disappointment when the parts being cleaned came out with some kind of residue on them. The photos are at 20X magnification (the barrel lid and bridge from a Tissot Cal. 781). The darker patches are where the surfaces have been rubbed with pegwood.



















This was only the second set of parts through the solutions, and the first set of parts wasn't that dirty.

I'd pre-cleaned everything to remove excessive gunk, especially from the mainspring and barrel, and pegged the jewels.

There was an inordinate amount of oil on the movement (as if someone had poured it in), but I absorbed as much as possible prior to cleaning. I don't think this was WD-40, pretty sure I would have smelt it.

The parts were run for 10 mins in each jar, then another 10 mins in the dryer.

Also before switching to L&R, I thoroughly cleaned the jars with water and trisodium phosphate cleaner to remove all traces of the old solutions, and made sure they were completely dry.

Any thoughts on what might be going on? I was hoping that upgrading to L&R would eliminate these sorts of problems, but alas no.

Cheers,
Richard


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## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

Use L&R 112 for cleaning, L&R 121 for 1st/2nd rinse and Zenith Drizbrite for final rinse...5 min each (although I often use 7 min for wash). Dry time of 10-15 min...this depends upon the heat setting of your dryer.
Reclean your jars...use household ammonia, completely dry, then follow up with an acetone rinse.
When residue shows up, it is usually a sign of solute build up in the solvent(s).
I have seen solutions ruined by one watch...the graphite lubes used for ms/barrel are especially bad...always preclean and wipe down the ms before putting it in the cleaner.
Regards, BG


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## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2019)

BenchGuy said:


> Use L&R 112 for cleaning, L&R 121 for 1st/2nd rinse


These are ultrasonic cleaning solutions - would you recommend these for a non-ultrasonic machine? Mine's a standard Elma 3 jar setup.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

This is some type of contamination from the jars or something. I use Extra Fine and #3 rinse and have never had that sort of residue before.


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## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2019)

Archer said:


> This is some type of contamination from the jars or something. I use Extra Fine and #3 rinse and have never had that sort of residue before.


Interesting. I was pretty thorough with the jars (used hot water & trisodium phosphate, let it soak for an hour, then scrubbed it all out and let it dry). But I didn't do a final acetone rinse as BenchGuy suggested.

It occurs to me that I didn't clean the bracket attaching the basket to the spindle, but that seems a bit extreme. It's not like it was caked with anything obvious beforehand, but who knows.


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

One other possibility is insufficient "spin off" time between jars and (especially) before drying. 

There will always be SOME contamination, even if it's just the oil from that movement, and the more liquid you carry over from one jar to the next, the more there'll be in whatever solutions go into the dryer. 

You then evaporate off the solvents, leaving the dissolved oil behind. 

With auto machines they deal with that for you but, with manuals, you need to spin off until there's nothing coming off the basket between each jar. About 30 seconds at high speed is usually enough, but watch for liquid hitting the inside of the jars and keep spinning until there isn't any.


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## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> These are ultrasonic cleaning solutions - would you recommend these for a non-ultrasonic machine? Mine's a standard Elma 3 jar setup.


Sorry...did not realize it was not ultrasonic. FWIW, the ultrasonic solutions should probably work fine in agitation cleaners. The primary difference is probably surface tension...the ultrasonics are designed to make very fine bubbles with application of the ultrasonic wave which enhances the cleaning action.

The solutions you have should work fine in your machine. I would still probably add Drizebrite as a 3rd rinse. As mentioned above, spin-off and dry times may be factors.

BTW...Hi Joe! Good to see you back...hope you are well!

Regards, BG


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Still around, just been too busy to post (about 120 trade repairs arrived in the last month, never mind the stuff from our own shop!) 

So trying to switch off from watches when I step (or crawl) away from the bench


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## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2019)

Thanks for everyone's advice, it's all been really helpful and given me food for thought. After looking at some of the parts again I suspect my issue has been contamination from graphite, as BenchGuy suggested.

When I try to clean the residue off, it gets picked up on the pegwood with a grey colour, very much like graphite.

I also tried a small experiment just now - I wanted to see what would happen if I tried cleaning the parts again.

Ran the same parts through, including those still with residue and others which were cleaned of residue.

Same time period - 10 mins in each jar and 10 mins dry time. Spin-off was now 1 min each.

The result: the residue hadn't moved at all from any of the parts - the barrel with the cleaned square patch looked exactly the same.

What was more interesting was the parts which were already cleaned of residue *were still clean* - no new residue had deposited on them.

So from that, a few theories:
1) L&R doesn't work well at shifting whatever this substance is (likely graphite)
2) the solutions might not be contaminated and I can still use them (great as they are ridiculously expensive in Australia)
3) maybe the graphite only dissolves when in bigger blobs?
4) or maybe the residue was already there on all the parts from the start and I just didn't notice?

This leads to another question: is there some product/solvent I can use to remove graphite lube more effectively? Perhaps I should be pre-washing the barrel and mainspring before putting it in the cleaner?

I'll report back with any more updates when I get around to cleaning more parts.

Also thanks for the Drizebrite suggestion, will try to get hold of some


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Perhaps I should be pre-washing the barrel and mainspring before putting it in the cleaner?


I always replace mainsprings, so I don't wash them anyway, but the barrels I always clean before putting them through the cleaning machine. I have a ground glass jar with 99% alcohol on the bench at all times, and I toss the barrel drum and cover in after I remove the spring. Let it soak for couple of minutes, then use a Q-tip dipped in the alcohol to clean the barrel drum and cover, right before running them through the cleaning machine.


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## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2019)

Archer said:


> I have a ground glass jar with 99% alcohol on the bench at all times, and I toss the barrel drum and cover in after I remove the spring.


Great info, I will add this to my routine.


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## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

I physically clean the barrel and barrel cover with MEK or Acetone, watchpaper and a Q-tip paper "stick", which I cut at a 45 degree angle and mounted in a pin vise. As the stick gets contaminated, I keep cutting it back until I run out of stick. This provides a sharp tip to get in the corners of the barrel for cleaning and the paper tip will not mar the barrel.
I normally replace mainsprings...but when I re-use, I clean with watchpaper soaked in MEK or acetone then run through the cleaner.
The black ms barrel greases are a bane in the industry.
Regards, BG


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## ccwatchmaker (Nov 28, 2015)

The manufacturers of modern alloy mainsprings advise against washing mainsprings, simply wipe with a tissue. The springs come from the factory with a Teflon coating, washing removes the coating and degrades the performance of the spring.

Everyone has their own methods, but 10 minutes in the cleaning solution is excessive. The solution with attack the plating. If memory serves, the book for my ancient Watchmaster WT (ultrasonic) recommends 90 seconds to two minutes. Long rinse times are not needed; one is rinsing, not cleaning


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## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2019)

I've been trialling 10 mins as it fell between a whole range of suggestions I've seen between 2 mins to 15 mins, but will try a shorter period in acknowledgement of your warning.

Thanks again for everyone's input, always interesting to learn the different techniques people use.


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