# 12 hr watches with 24 hr dial



## Afka

Time to time we all see watches with 24 hr dial, but actually a 12 hr movement inside. This dial is absolutely useless for these watches and probably "designed" by somebody only to gain attraction and some sales.

I think to display these creatures in a separate thread is useful for all who are interested in real 24 hour watches and can avoid some mistakes.

As a first I will display Rochmont Air Navigator "24 hour" watch. You can find them quite often in auction sites. This watch has actually normal 12h movement inside - tested by unfortunate user here


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## Afka

Next I would like to remember "24h" creature from Parnis. These watches were reported some years ago and discussed in thread https://www.watchuseek.com/f5/parnis-214183-2.html


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## Afka

One unfortunate cheap monster more, called Jay Baxter. The main dial is 24h and bezel is 24h, but common 12h quartz is inside. Subdials are fake drawings, of course.


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## peagreen

Thanks for starting this thread, Afka. 
I'm sure it will serve as a useful warning, as I have also almost fallen into that trap in a shop.


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## Afka

Sachmann-Benz Navigiver









I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like another trap. Usually you can distinguish between true 24h and 12h watches when you look at hands. The time is here 20:12, about quarter past 20, but the hour hand is already positioned at 20:30 (according to 24h dial). That means the hour hand is moving in 12h pace.


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## heb

Hello,
I believe this kind of watch is designed to be a "trainer watch", if you will. It is for those people who are contemplating getting a 24 hour watch but are uncertain as to their suitability. IF they find that the dial is just too confusing, then they can use its 12 hour feature.

heb



Afka said:


> Time to time we all see watches with 24 hr dial, but actually a 12 hr movement inside. This dial is absolutely useless for these watches and probably "designed" by somebody only to gain attraction and some sales.
> 
> I think to display these creatures in a separate thread is useful for all who are interested in real 24 hour watches and can avoid some mistakes.
> 
> As a first I will display Rochmont Air Navigator "24 hour" watch. You can find them quite often in auction sites. This watch has actually normal 12h movement inside - tested by unfortunate user here
> 
> View attachment 1429695


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## tesoking

hi,

Very nice!!!


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## Afka

heb said:


> Hello,
> I believe this kind of watch is designed to be a "trainer watch", if you will. It is for those people who are contemplating getting a 24 hour watch but are uncertain as to their suitability. IF they find that the dial is just too confusing, then they can use its 12 hour feature.
> 
> heb


No, no. These watches are useless. Absolute flop. On one side is salesman ordering something he is not competent. On the other side is distant producer who can produce everything if you pay and who is absolutely not interested what happens next with delivered goods.


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## Afka

One more - Deporte. You can see these "24h" watches in all colors - yellow, black, red, blue. But all are fake - 12h quartz inside.


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## goody2141

Infantry In-037 has a "24 hour" dial, but it too only has a 12 hour movement. I bought and owned this watch, and actually just sold it today. Good looking watch, terrible movement. With a different movement and dial this would be a great watch, because I really liked the looks of it.


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## rationaltime

goody2141 said:


> Infantry In-037 has a "24 hour" dial, but it too only has a 12 hour movement. I bought and owned this watch, and actually just sold it today. Good looking watch, terrible movement. With a different movement and dial this would be a great watch, because I really liked the looks of it.
> 
> View attachment 1459622


Interesting, for $22.99 you can buy a blatant rip-off of the Sinn U2 Solebox.
How much did it sell for used?

The original U2 is not a 24 hour watch. It is a UTC watch.

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## Afka

Today I would like to add to this tread something from high end!
Antoine Preziuso is a very high end watchmaker. Two models of *Antoine Preziuso Transworld* - *Tonneau *and *Round* - have 24h dials and 12h movements. 24h dial is here to round the revolving earth in centre.

First I was surprised that that a high end brand has 24h models too. Only after a while reading detailed descriptions I understand, thet the watch is normal 12h watch.


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## shock6906

Afka said:


> Today I would like to add to this tread something from high end!
> Antoine Preziuso is a very high end watchmaker. Two models of *Antoine Preziuso Transworld* - *Tonneau *and *Round* - have 24h dials and 12h movements. 24h dial is here to round the revolving earth in centre.
> 
> First I was surprised that that a high end brand has 24h models too. Only after a while reading detailed descriptions I understand, thet the watch is normal 12h watch.
> 
> View attachment 5621657
> View attachment 5621673


So does the earth in the center rotate on a 24 hour period or is it also 12 hour?


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## Afka

shock6906 said:


> So does the earth in the center rotate on a 24 hour period or is it also 12 hour?


Earth is like a GMT hand, rotates in 24h. But - counterclockwise, as it should be.


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## shock6906

Afka said:


> Earth is like a GMT hand, rotates in 24h. But - counterclockwise, as it should be.


Well that's pretty cool.


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## Afka

Masterline 1966


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## saltddirk

Afka said:


> Masterline 1966
> 
> View attachment 7456402


Actually I saw these on Ebay not long ago.
At least the vendor clearly states it is not a 24 H watch

D


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## saltddirk

here is another one,
ODO watch
Petty really as it is a really nice dial.
Still, I got my money back from the vendor, and will use the dial and case with a ronda 515.24 movement once I find a suitable set of hands. ( Ronda uses a 160 Dia 24 h shaft which is not really common, most are 150)









D


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## gradient

I fell for this one on eBay recently. I actually did do research on the movement before buying but misunderstood what I read on ranfft (Ranfft listed that the date is set by changing 20-24h, from which I incorrectly inferred that it was a 24 hour movement). I filed a successful claim with eBay so no loss.

Interestingly, there is one of these listed on eBay right now by a different seller and now includes a warning that the movement is a 12-hour variety...

I have seen a few of other 24h face designs for sale with the 2614.2H movement, as well - avoid these watches!


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## gradient

Afka said:


> Usually you can distinguish between true 24h and 12h watches when you look at hands. The time is here 20:12, about quarter past 20, but the hour hand is already positioned at 20:30 (according to 24h dial). That means the hour hand is moving in 12h pace.


I wish I had read this a couple of months ago! That's one of those things that is so obvious once you realize it.

That deserves to be a sticky, imo.


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## rosnyde

Is there a term for a 24 hr hand that points to a rotatable bezel -- for the purposes having different timezones and such?


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## dj898

umm...
maybe GMT ?


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## Afka




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## TOPAZ

Afka said:


> View attachment 9490162


Ooops ... had good luck - this watch was offered on eBay ... but I missed the end of the auction.
:-d


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## TOPAZ

Afka said:


> Time to time we all see watches with 24 hr dial, but actually a 12 hr movement inside. This dial is absolutely useless for these watches and probably "designed" by somebody only to gain attraction and some sales.
> View attachment 1429695


Absolute waist.
Low quality printing on the dial.
Lowest quality movement from China inside. 
I opened the case and found small metal flakes ...
Forget the strap.
The watch was delivered in a bag....
I paid about 45 USD - 45 lost bucks.

Michael


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## Afka

Chotovelli & Figli Big Pilot Watch


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## ned-ludd

A well-known Chinese shopping site is a 'good' source of faux 24-hour watches. They're stupidly cheap and worth buying just on the off-chance that they're actually 24-hour, or can be retrofitted with a 24-hour movement, or to establish a private rogue's gallery. I still struggle to understand why anyone would think such a watch could be actually useful but I've observed that cheap Chinese watches tend to appeal to appearance over functionality.

Yazole (The seller really didn't understand my questions about 12 vs 24.)








Oneloong "Aviation Fighter Pilot's Watch" (This one is at least declared to be a 12-hour movement.)








Julius (One picture clearly shows the minute hand at 30 and the hour hand at 0100.)








Skone (The annotated picture showing the 12-hour times is new. I guess they've had quite a few complaints.)








There was also a 'Bell & Ross' copy (i.e. square body) that looked to be 24-hour but after I queried the seller they responded in seeming shock and dismay that it was only a 12-hour movement and told me they'd stop selling them which, surprisingly, they did.

Of the above I've only bought the Yazole and Skone. I've had a go at replacing the movement in the Skone with a Ronda 505.24H but with limited success; mostly because it's hard to get suitable hands.


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## Steve24h

Hmm that Oneloong would be a nice looking 'quartz clone' of some of the old Poljot aviator/raketa type watches. If you find a source for those ronda hands let me know because I might try the same thing..
(though I promised myself not to buy anymore watches for a while after my last purchase... gonna have to post about that one later on lol)


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## Afka

Jordan Kerr. Actually I have no solid evidence that these are 12h watches. It would be nice if somebody would confirm it.


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## ned-ludd

Afka said:


> Jordan Kerr. Actually I have no solid evidence that these are 12h watches. It would be nice if somebody would confirm it.


Judging from the hand positions and the generally low price at various websites I'd say it contains a 12-hour movement. It also looks awfully similar to the Julius watch in my previous post.


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## ned-ludd

Afka said:


> Earth is like a GMT hand, rotates in 24h. But - counterclockwise, as it should be.


Only if you're looking down onto the North Pole. From the opposite end (looking up?) it rotates clockwise.

For a North Polar Azimuthal projection (e.g. the UN logo map) it would have to rotate anti-clockwise to reflect the time of day against a fixed dial.

The map on the Antoine Preziuso Transworld is a South Polar Azimuthal projection, so its natural rotation is clockwise. This makes it suitable for putting on the face of clocks and watches with ordinary movements.








For those of us living in the southern hemisphere this is also good because our land features aren't distorted beyond easy recognition.

If, on the other hand, the earth face stays still and a 24-hour hand rotates clockwise (representing the sun) then the North Polar projection is the one to use.


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## ned-ludd

For a long time I've been pondering how to convert these 12-hour phonies to true 24-hour. The main problem seemed to be getting an hour hand that fit the large GMT wheel on a Ronda 24H movement. I always assumed that a reamed out hour hand would just weaken and break.

On Saturday night I decided _"WTH, it's worth a try."_ So I grabbed a 1.80mm tapered reamer, broaching clamp and a new, standard 1.20mm hour hand and gradually reamed it out until it would fit on the 1.60mm GMT wheel of a Ronda movement. Not all of the hand's hole flange survived but it fits quite well and doesn't seem to slip. Most importantly it's not noticeably weakened.

Heartened by this I dismantled one of my 12-hour phonies - a $15 Oneloong - only to discover that it needed a new case insert for the Ronda 515.24H movement, which is larger than the Miyota 2315 it came with. So I had to design and 3D print the replacement but it only took a few tries before I had a working insert. The Oneloong's dial plate had to lose its pins because their locations didn't match the Ronda's but some dial dots came to the rescue there. The centre hole in the dial also had to be enlarged to make space for the GMT wheel.

I wanted to replace the original hands with luminous ones but none I had were long enough so I stuck with the originals. After reaming out the hour hand I put together the hand, GMT wheel and dial ready for placement in the case and connection to the movement. This seems to be the best way to assemble and doesn't present a hand alignment problem because of the independent adjustment of the GMT hand. I added a brass spring washer from an old Vostok between the dial and GMT wheel to prevent it from floating off the movement.

Completing assembly was straightforward, except that the original red second hand wouldn't fit the Ronda's shaft so a replacement had to be found from amongst my spares. It's black with a nice teardrop balance and looks okay. (One of these days I'm going to successfully fit a second hand to a quartz movement such that it's aligned right on the tick marks.)

The happiest/luckiest part of this is that the date wheel of the Ronda movement lines up perfectly with the dial window!

The photo shows the successfully converted watch at an obvious 24-hour position. Surrounding it are the broaching clamp and reamer, the Ronda movement with the test hand and one of the (failed) 3D printed inserts.








This watch is quite large with a 45mm case and the leather(ish) strap it came with is awfully thick and stiff. I've replaced that with a NATO and it looks and wears much better. I've been wearing it all day and it survived the rough and tumble of the workshop while I made new shelves for some storage cupboards. No sign of the hour hand coming loose. Yet.


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## ned-ludd

Conversion number two didn't go quite so well. Another $15 watch but quite a troublesome one. (I actually started this one months ago and put it aside when I couldn't find suitable hands.)








The case was too small for a 515.24H so a 505.24H was needed and this called for another custom insert. The first insert I made was a simple spacer ring but it was too loose and the movement wouldn't stay in one place - especially when the stem was pulled in and out. I messed around with it for ages but was never going to succeed this way and had to start over.

So yesterday I revisited the insert design and came up with a very close fitting one that holds the movement precisely in place horizontally, vertically and rotationally; so well that it doesn't need dial dots. There is just one dial dot in place purely to keep the dial from rotating.














The original hands could not be used because the minute hand's hole was larger than the 1.20mm of the Ronda movement. The replacement hands I chose are labeled "A37 11mm" (if that means anything to anyone). Again I had to ream out the hour hand to 1.60mm and the dial plate hole to fit the larger size.

Putting it all together was fairly straightforward and it all worked well - until I replaced the crystal. The second hand stopped moving and I quickly found that the Ronda movement with a second hand is too tall for the case. By pressing the crystal on I'd pushed the second hand right down and it seems the movement was damaged.

So I started again with a new 505.24H (my last one!) and this time simply didn't fit the second hand. 








The watch works as intended but I seem to have mucked up the stem length because if I push the crown all the way in the watch stops. If I pull the crown out a tiny bit it runs. I would shorten the stem but the crown was so loose I used Loctite on it and doubt that I could unscrew it without damaging the crown. As you can see it's not a very standard one.

I'm calling this an educational experience rather than a complete success. I would try again because I have another of these watches but sadly I've run out of 505.24H movements and can't find a sufficiently cheap supply of them.


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## port9nka

Ракета Города (Raketa Goroda) 
24 hour dial with 12 hour movement - 2628Н (not 2623Н or Baltika like in 24 hour raketa)

Штурманские (Sturmanskie) VD53/3385877 (black) VD53/3386880 (white) 
24 hours only on sub-dial. Main hour hand is 12hour. Seiko VD53 movement


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## ned-ludd

port9nka said:


> Ракета Города (Raketa Goroda)
> 24 hour dial with 12 hour movement - 2628Н (not 2623Н or Baltika like in 24 hour raketa)
> 
> Штурманские (Sturmanskie) VD53/3385877 (black) VD53/3386880 (white)
> 24 hours only on sub-dial. Main hour hand is 12hour. Seiko VD53 movement


I would argue that these are not presented as 24-hour watches but are simply 12-hour watches with 'timezone calculators'.

At a glance they appear to be the 12-hour watches they are and it's only on closer inspection that you see the 24-hour markings. 
They're not much different from any GMT World Time watch - just without the GMT hand.








Admittedly the Sturmanskie numerals are larger than they might be and being right in between the tick marks could mislead. The numerals are not, however, as large as on their true 24-hour watches. I would call it a minor failure in dial design and semiotics.

I suspect it's really only us 24-hour _aficionados_ that will see a 24-hour main dial where there is none intended. Many people - even WIS - still don't know that such watches exist!


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## ned-ludd

Two more for the gallery. Both of these are implicitly presented as 24-hour watches, because there is no other possible purpose to the 24-hour markings.















Enquiries to the vendors of these watches have both yielded the unabashed response that they contain 12-hour movements.


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## port9nka

ned-ludd said:


> I would argue that these are not presented as 24-hour watches but are simply 12-hour watches with 'timezone calculators'.


Let me disagree with you 

Timezone calculators on this watches are almost useless without GMT hand. They do not show second timezone with 12 hour dial because they are marked up for 24 hour hand. 
But this is not a big trouble. 
Main problem is that watches has very similar 24 hour and GMT brothers. For Raketa Goroda it is Raketa Traveller - same dial and rotating bezel, but true 24 hour movement.
Sturmankie has 24 hour model - 2623/1741134 with same bezel and GMT model -51524/3331817 with similar bezel. 
It's a big trap for newbie.


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## port9nka

ned-ludd said:


> At a glance they appear to be the 12-hour watches they are and it's only on closer inspection that you see the 24-hour markings.
> The numerals are not, however, as large as on their true 24-hour watches.


Another example of Sturmanskie that can blow up newbie's mind.  
Big numerals 24 hour dial, but 12 hour movement. (Seiko VK64)


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## ned-ludd

What a WIS does on a Saturday night: replaces the pointless 12-hour movement in a cheap Chinese watch with a 515.24H 24-hour movement.









Just to spice things up I'm trying out the 90° rotated dial that seems to suit 'tactical' wear.

(Observe that for once I got the second hand lined up almost perfectly!)


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## ned-ludd

I can confirm that the Julius watch mentioned earlier in this thread is sold with a 12-hour movement inside.

Of course I've replaced that with a Ronda 515.24H movement.









Again I thought it would be nice to rotate the face to suit tactical wear. It was logical to align the face with the offset crown and the 60° angle's just right.

I had to change the second hand because the original (with the 'J' end) is too small to fit the 0.20mm second hand shaft of the 515.24H. With no suitable black hands in my collection of parts and the only other colour being red, white is a compromise (and I'm still struggling with its alignment!).


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## Afka

ned-ludd said:


> Yazole (The seller really didn't understand my questions about 12 vs 24.)


This picture is a proof that Yazole (a shameless copy of Epos Emotion true 24h watch) has indeed a 12h movement:


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## ned-ludd

Afka said:


> This picture is a proof that Yazole (a shameless copy of Epos Emotion true 24h watch) has indeed a 12h movement:


I bought one of these some time ago to determine just that.

Though I could convert it to purist 24-hour I decided there's no point because I'll never wear it: the gold colouring is just not for me.


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## paulhotte

Afka said:


> Time to time we all see watches with 24 hr dial, but actually a 12 hr movement inside. This dial is absolutely useless for these watches and probably "designed" by somebody only to gain attraction and some sales.
> 
> I think to display these creatures in a separate thread is useful for all who are interested in real 24 hour watches and can avoid some mistakes.
> 
> As a first I will display Rochmont Air Navigator "24 hour" watch. You can find them quite often in auction sites. This watch has actually normal 12h movement inside - tested by unfortunate user here
> 
> View attachment 1429695


I think it is both ugly and useless..


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## paulhotte

Afka said:


> This picture is a proof that Yazole (a shameless copy of Epos Emotion true 24h watch) has indeed a 12h movement:
> 
> View attachment 13829159
> 
> 
> This is one of the few 24\12 hr watches that looks simple and nice


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## ned-ludd

Here's an interesting watch from China.









It's not cheap and at a glance is quite enticing: it's colourful, shows 24 hours and has an open-heart tourbillon! I know a tourbillon is pretty pointless on a wristwatch but it's so fascinating and fun to observe in action. Who wouldn't like to have one? They even show a video of the tourbillon doing its thing. Magic!

Now look closer, though, because all is not right with this watch.

If it's a 24-hour watch there's been a design decision that makes it quite impractical. 
With its 24-up face you more or less have to guess the hours between 10:00 and 14:00. This is the middle of the day when you're most likely to need to quickly tell the time. 
If it were a 12-up you'd only have to guess the hours between 22:00 and 02:00, when most of us old folks are asleep. Much more sensible. There's even a yellow dot at the top that suggests the sun at noon, so why is it 24-up?
For this reason alone I would pass on this watch: it fails a basic usability test.

Then there's the fixed timezones, which are pretty useless since they're just reminders of the zones. If the face were 12-up they'd be even more useless because London-UTC/Paris would be at the bottom and not shown because of the tourbillon. Even worse, the names don't consistently align with the numbers. Another fail.

Now look even _closer_.

The hour hand in the photo is pointing (more or less) to 21. It appears to be showing 21:09 or thereabouts. Poor hand alignment on such an expensive watch?

Now we realise that the hands do not pivot in the centre of the face: they're shifted upwards. 
Can you see the red tick marks between the inner city names? They don't seem to match the time zone spacing. What are they for?

If you follow the ticks around the face it's soon apparent that they align with the pivot point and are actually the _five minute marks_. By extension they're also 12-hour marks and we can now see that the hour hand is sitting just past 50 minutes / 10 hours and the minute hand is at 11 minutes, which better matches the classic '10:10' advertising pose of watch hands.

The unavoidable conclusion is that the 24-hour markings around the dial have no relation to the hands at all and therefore this watch is actually a 12-hour watch.

Admittedly, nowhere in the description does it say that this is a 24-hour watch but I think anyone could be excused for thinking it is based on its appearance. 
False advertising? Deliberate deception? Or perhaps it's just another example of a Chinese watch that is more interested in looking pretty and expensive than actually being a proper timepiece.

The result is a watch that is useless as a 24-hour or a 12-hour watch.

Cool tourbillon, though! ;-)


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## Monkey_like_watch

ned-ludd said:


> Here's an interesting watch from China.
> 
> View attachment 14592667
> 
> 
> It's not cheap


"It's not cheap..."

Is this a joke?
It only costs 2100rmb. That is 298usd for a Sea-Gull ST8000 tourbillion movement. 
If 300usd for a tourbillion is expensive then you must be paid in Zimbabwean dollars.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...pBThZZ&id=598493285626&ns=1&abbucket=5#detail


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