# Project Kingston (continued)



## Yao

Here is the update for the Kingston project.

Case body:
* The samples are due in around the middle of September
* So far no significant changes to the case design were required from that posted earlier. I made the bezel (the widest part of the case) slightly smaller from 39.3 mm to 39.2 mm. The bezel kept bugging me and it turns out that the teeth on the bezel were slightly too tall so I brought the diameter down slightly and it looks better. I know it sounds neurotic but this is the kind of stuff that keeps me up. 
* There will be as noted earlier a C3 and SL BGW9 lume option for the inserts. There will be more BG W9 inserts available than C3 because my sense is that it will prove to be more popular contrary to the poll. Also it is the lume that we will continue to use because it best matches the white lume I prefer for our designs.

Hands and Dials:
* The hands have been completed and were delivered shortly before the watch industry took its summer holidays. 
* The dials....here are the samples of the glossy "Kingston" dials.




























Please excuse the photo quality. The color of the gold on the dial match the gilt hands perfectly. But as you can tell the dial markers have that gold tone that the "Bond" Submariner also had in the movies. It was probably only really noticeable in this shot:










In this scene James Bond is in a dark night club and he is using a lighter to read his watch and light a cigarette. The light of the flame is being reflected by the gold indexes.

It turns out this effect isn't created with paint as my dial supplier originally indicated to me. After further study and 6 months of my nagging they realized that this effect could only be created using the "lost paint" process that was used on the original 6538 dials. The process we will be using is a variation of the original and goes something like this:

1. Plate brass blank of dial with gold or a gold tone material to a mirror finish
2. Print your markers using a acid resistant paint 
3. Plate the dial black. This is where the process deviates from the original. the originals used paint not electroplating.
4. Remove the acid resistant paint to reveal the gold surface underneath
5. Clear coat the dial, print the depth rating, and lume the dial

My thanks goes out to John S. for explaining the process to me and sharing his knowledge regarding this process.

This process is the most likely reason that no one has really attempted to create an homage to this watch before. The dials will end up being the most expensive I have ever used and will turn out to be a significant percentage of the cost of the project. Normally dial costs are small relative to everything else. The price of the watch for the pre-order customers will naturally stay the same but the retail price of the watch may have to go up depending upon the scrap rate of this part. It will be the tail that wags the dog :-d

The glossy surface is going to "fun" o| I actually ordered a new piece of equipment that should be here around the end of the month just to work with these dials. Its a compressed air pencil-wand that shoots a jet of de-ionized air. Its used to break the static-electric bond that the dust develops with the clear coat surface. This in theory should help me minimize the amount I will have to touch the dial and make cleaning them faster. We will see how the theory works in practice soon. Fortunately this piece of equipment does have other uses like cleaning crystals. This project was a good excuse to get one 

Bracelet:

Originally I had designed the bracelet to taper from 20 mm to 18 mm and sat there wondering why they hadn't done that originally. I had chalked it up to a styling choice. However after thinking through the design I wondered if the "rivets" on the first links might hit the case body because of the length of the lugs. When I asked the supplier they took a closer look at it and it turns out that my hunch was right.

If you look closely at the riveted bracelets from that era it turns out that the first link on the bracelets is narrower than the end link. Usually the first link is the same width as the end link. I guess Rolex realized the same issue when the original was designed. As a result the bracelet now tapers from 20 mm to 16 mm like the original bracelets. The major difference is that the bracelet tapers over the course of 3 links whereas the original tapered gradually over its entire length. I think our taper will be more in line with modern aesthetics.

The bracelet tapers to 16 mm because its compatible with a standard sized clasp. In addition a larger width doesn't balance well with the next step up in clasp size. I am leaving out some of the more mundane details out regarding the decision to follow the original more close but most of them are technically related. It turns out that the original bracelet may have had a lot more pragmatism determining its design that I would have thought. Going through a design like this really makes one appreciate that much more the thought and issues that the original designers worked through. Its no wonder their efforts are so celebrated more than 50 years later.

As for the timetable....unfortunately due to delays with the sub-contractors (many of whom seem to be oddly distracted...probably by the economic situation and the summer holidays coming up) the watch probably won't make it to assembly before the year end. I think that the components will be ready but it will be so close to the Christmas holidays that there probably won't be any room in the assembler's schedule. Contrary to common sense it turns out that the assembly companies are usually booked through the year end. One would have expected that they would be looking for work after mid-November since most stores would be stocked for the holidays by then but that isn't the case. This was something that I found out 2 years ago.

Look forward to your comments but don't worry if I am not around this evening. I got to get back to work on watches. Its 9.20 pm here and I am only on hour 10 of my normal 12 hour day :-d


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## Darkman

WOW! big props on that dial, it looks amazing!! (and thanks for the update!)


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## dosei

Thanks Bill for the update


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## gotmpwr

Looks even better than I expected, and I had high expections !


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## sfglenrock

Thanks for the pics, Bill. The glossy dial and hands look amazing. Even better than expected, if that's possible. It going to make the wait even harder. o| Keep the updates coming.


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## gshock82

Awesome!


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## NWP627

Thanks for the update and photos Bill, it's looking very good - except for the wait!
N


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## WiscOmega

This is why I am a happy MKII customer.... attention to detail. GREAT update Bill.... I can't wait until my spot in the pre-order line comes up.

Ciao,


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## siggy

Bill, it's your neuroticism that we love :-!

All these little tweaks and modifications sound great and even though they may result in tiny differences compared to the previous plans I think the watch will be better for it.

That dial will just be a thing of beauty!

Previously I had voted for a tapered bracelet to 18mm, 16mm just sounded too extreme to me. Then afterwards I was wearing one of my most comfortable watches on a bracelet ( Zeno Explorer ) and noticed that the bracelet had a slight taper, something I'd never even thought of before. I measured the width at the clasp and it was 16mm. No way would I have guessed this beforehand but the bracelet just feels so good as it is.

regards

siggy


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## gerard88t

I'm liking everything I'm reading on the details Bill, except the timeline. I look at it as days closer til I'm in the ground and I want to wear this thing a little longer before then! :-d So from what I get of it, you're anticipating winter/early spring 2010 before us plank owners get word watches are ready? Forgive me if I'm reading the news incorrectly. And thanks for the time to put up those photos! I'm diggin' the dial a lot!


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## gerard88t

I think I just noticed something cool at the dials bottom. I could be wrong but does it read "L SWISS L" ? If yes, :-!


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## Galpo

Thanks for the update, Mr.Yao

That dial looks perfect, very promissing 
When looking at the one with the date window, 
it's clear to me that my choise will probably be the no-date one. 
How's that saying? "Perfection has it's price"


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## TOKI188

Yeeeah baby!!!

Arthur


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## sunster

Thanks for the update Bill. The dial and hands looks fantastic. It's great your attention to detail pays off with such fantastic results we love. It's a pity there are going to be delays as the wait will probably kill me. However keep the snippets of news coming regular to feed our Kingston hunger.


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## usc1

the dial looks fantastic. |>


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## Reintitan

Great work Bill! It looks like it's coming along nicely. The attention to detail is what makes it a MkII watch 

Semi-OT: Did you get my voicemail about 2-3 wks ago changing my billing address? I recently moved and I wanted to update that before my Kingston ships. I was able to change my shipping address online at MKII website but I'm supposed to call to change the billing address.

Thanks,
Gerard


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## MartinCRC

The dials look absolutely fantastic - thank you for updating us. I have one comment about the date dial: I find that the black on white/silver coupled to the very modern font jars slightly with the heroic attention to period detail being followed elsewhere. Is there a possibility either for an option of a white on black date wheel (to be less conspicuous) or to use a softer font, more in line with that used on date wheels of the late 50's early 60's.

Thanks
Martin


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## siggy

What do you think of the dials yourself Bill? Seeing them on a screen is never the same as real life , just a small tilt on my LCD screen changes the dial's appearance completely, changing whether the text seems to strong or not. I think we've just got to leave it to your good judgement.

regards

siggy


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## rmasso

Bill,

That dial and hands combination looks absolutely fantastic. The gilt/gold on the dial looks stunning. I do have one question though, it appears that the lume on the 12 o'clock pointer triangle does not fill in all the way at the tip on the bottom of the triangle, it looks like there is a tiny gap of black between the gold outline and the lume on the triangle. Is this correct or is it just the way the photo was taken?

Aside from that, thank you so much for taking the time to explain to us the process of how these things get done. I think it makes owning one much more interesting as we are part of the process, even if it is just in the knowing of how the process occurs. I know I will cherish this timepiece for life!

Also, one other question I just thought of, perhaps it was discussed earlier but I have read all the Kingston posts and do not recall. Was there any reasoning, other than price, as to why the 2836-2 movement was chosen versus the 2893-2 movement as in the LRRP? I just figured such a fine piece as this one would deserve the best treatment. I know it is too late for any changes there. Do you think the 2836-2 can achieve chronometer spec adjustment like the 2893-2?

Thanks, am anxiously awaiting more updates and pictures, cannot wait to see the bezel and case and bracelet! I think tapering down to 16mm was the right choice in the end!

This is going to end up being one absolutely gorgeous timepiece!

Best Regards,

Richard


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## Dave E

Thanks for the update, Bill, that's looking good! It's made one decision for me, I wasn't sure about the gilt hands (I generally prefer silvered), but the combination with that dial is just right.


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## gerard88t

rmasso said:


> Bill,
> 
> That dial and hands combination looks absolutely fantastic. The gilt/gold on the dial looks stunning. I do have one question though, it appears that the lume on the 12 o'clock pointer triangle does not fill in all the way at the tip on the bottom of the triangle, it looks like there is a tiny gap of black between the gold outline and the lume on the triangle. Is this correct or is it just the way the photo was taken?
> 
> Richard


It *would* look tighter if the lume came to the point and not be cut short like it appears in the photos.


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## timbo

Nice work Bill!

How about a scan of the lume in action?


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## SeikoSickness

Yao said:


> * The dials....here are the samples of the glossy "Kingston" dials.


This just sealed the deal for me! I'm so glad I decided to take a chance and get in right at the start.


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## ntr

It's going to be hard to wait o|

Thanks a lot for the update and congratulations/:thanks for the job!!!:-!


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## Thieuster

Bill,

First, thank your for your detailed explanation about the work you've done until now. 

I'm so happy with the design and pics so far. I think the details (gild/gold) on the dial and hand takes MKII Watches to the next step!

The difference of the lumen types confuses me, though. Earlier this year, there was a poll re. the lumen. At this moment, I can not make a mental picture of the dial with the difference between the two types. I would be very glad if you post a few pics with details (lumen shots etc) of the two lumen types. 
Given the fact that the pics of the dial you posted here are more than we all had expected, I think that a lumen shot will help too.

All in due time off course.

Menno


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## Cowbiker

:-!Appreciate all the effort being poured into this one Bill. Also like the historically correct taper, but hey, i've amassed an assortment of 20/16 straps and tropics for mine already. LOL


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## Quartersawn

I'm also a bit confused about the lume. Is there one type on the dial or will we have a choice? And if there is only one type, which one is it? I want the dial lume to be the same as the bezel lume on mine.

BTW, the samples look sweet. :-!


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## colinman.77

Bill, you have outdone yourself. The attention to detail that you are putting into this project is incredible. I can't wait to see the finished product, I know it will be worth the wait. 
Post more photos!


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## colinman.77

Based on my experience owning 4 MKII watches with eta 2824 movements, the Kingston should have no problem keeping chronometer spec time. My most inaccurate MKII watch only gained 3 seconds a day! Bill does an outstanding job of regulating these things:-!



rmasso said:


> Bill,
> 
> Also, one other question I just thought of, perhaps it was discussed earlier but I have read all the Kingston posts and do not recall. Was there any reasoning, other than price, as to why the 2836-2 movement was chosen versus the 2893-2 movement as in the LRRP? I just figured such a fine piece as this one would deserve the best treatment. I know it is too late for any changes there. Do you think the 2836-2 can achieve chronometer spec adjustment like the 2893-2?


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## tallguy

rmasso said:


> Also, one other question I just thought of, perhaps it was discussed earlier but I have read all the Kingston posts and do not recall. Was there any reasoning, other than price, as to why the 2836-2 movement was chosen versus the 2893-2 movement as in the LRRP? I just figured such a fine piece as this one would deserve the best treatment. I know it is too late for any changes there. Do you think the 2836-2 can achieve chronometer spec adjustment like the 2893-2?
> 
> Richard


Hey Richard...the 2893 is a GMT movement.|> This isn't a GMT watch;-)


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## rmasso

Hi Tallguy,

I know, but I also noticed Bill usually uses one movement (2893-2 in this case on the LRRP) and just removes the GMT option or does not include a date wheel, otherwise I would have said 2892-2 but I didn't want to confuse matters. As a matter of fact, I had originally typed 2892-2 but then went back and changed it, I guess I am just causing more confusion. 

In any event, I guess my main point was that the Kingston is turning out to be a superb timepiece and is so limited that I thought perhaps only the best of the best would have been better. I know the 2836-2 is a version of the 2824-2 which is the little brother of the 2892-2. From my understanding and experience they are both very robust movements. I know the 2892-2 is a bit more refined though and I know it has smoother winding than the 2824-2, but perhaps the 2836-2 is smoother winding than the 2824-2, from my experience with the 2836-2 in my wife's Oris regulator, it appears it might be smoother than one of my 2824's (which I sold).

Any thoughts on any of the above are welcome. |>

Best Regards,

Richard


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## giosdad

These dials look great. They are everything I expected plus some.

I can't wait to see some of the case samples. 

The wait is agonizing but I know it will be worth the wait. Thankfully I have a custom Seafighter due soon to hold me over and put a MKII back in my collection. Though the milsub itch is becoming too unbearable.

Thanks Bill


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## Sirex

My sinceres congratulations for this gorgeous glossy dial 

Thanks a lot for the update Bill :thanks

Regards,

Toni


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## Yao

gerard88t said:


> I'm liking everything I'm reading on the details Bill, except the timeline. I look at it as days closer til I'm in the ground and I want to wear this thing a little longer before then! :-d So from what I get of it, you're anticipating winter/early spring 2010 before us plank owners get word watches are ready? Forgive me if I'm reading the news incorrectly. And thanks for the time to put up those photos! I'm diggin' the dial a lot!


Yes the time line may work out that way. We will see. I am quite literally doing everything that I can but being confounded by supplier schedules.


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## Yao

rmasso said:


> Bill,
> 
> That dial and hands combination looks absolutely fantastic. The gilt/gold on the dial looks stunning. I do have one question though, it appears that the lume on the 12 o'clock pointer triangle does not fill in all the way at the tip on the bottom of the triangle, it looks like there is a tiny gap of black between the gold outline and the lume on the triangle. Is this correct or is it just the way the photo was taken?


Mostly this is a result of the way the photo was taken. There is a very small gap between the gold outlines and the lume marker. While there is a gap the photos exaggerates the size of that gap.



> Also, one other question I just thought of, perhaps it was discussed earlier but I have read all the Kingston posts and do not recall. Was there any reasoning, other than price, as to why the 2836-2 movement was chosen versus the 2893-2 movement as in the LRRP? I just figured such a fine piece as this one would deserve the best treatment. I know it is too late for any changes there. Do you think the 2836-2 can achieve chronometer spec adjustment like the 2893-2?


The 2893-2 requires modification to display on three hands. While the modifications are not hard they are time consuming and it would be difficult to get the assembler to do the work. The 2836-2 is also easier to work with and offers an instantaneously changing date. The 2836-2 also offers excellent accuracy especially with the amount of time I spend regulating the watches. Also the 2893-2 is much more expensive than the 2836-2 and would have required the price to exceed $1,000. The 2836-2 was the best choice overall.


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## Yao

siggy said:


> What do you think of the dials yourself Bill? Seeing them on a screen is never the same as real life , just a small tilt on my LCD screen changes the dial's appearance completely, changing whether the text seems to strong or not. I think we've just got to leave it to your good judgement.
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


The dials look good. The gold is actually rather under-stated. This is a result of the fact that the gold tends to reflect whatever is in front of it since its flat. I was surprised as that it really has a mysterious quality about it because of the way it catches the light.


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## k7lro

I think you've outdone yourself. That dial is beautiful.


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## siggy

Yao said:


> The dials look good. The gold is actually rather under-stated. This is a result of the fact that the gold tends to reflect whatever is in front of it since its flat. I was surprised as that it really has a mysterious quality about it because of the way it catches the light.


That's great Bill, I think the originals would have had the same quality. If the silver print has a similar quality and is not too stark or white so that the silver does not stand out more that the gold then your result could not be better.

regards

siggy


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## bullitt731

I trully believe this is going to be one of those rare ocassions when the finished product will blow away all expectations.

We all know what a great job Bill does, but this is a very special project with iconic roots that I predict will elevate his entire company to a higher status in the watch community.

Take all the time you need Bill, you are working on a classic in its own right.


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## Yao

gerard88t said:


> I think I just noticed something cool at the dials bottom. I could be wrong but does it read "L SWISS L" ? If yes, :-!


The non-date version of the Kingston is the one that I am 100% sure will be assembled in Switzerland so it is marked "L SWISS L" in homage to the original markings.

The date version will not be marked as such because I am not sure if all of the date versions will be assembled in Switzerland. Those that are assembled in Switzerland it will come with a card guaranteeing its "Swiss Made" credentials although not marked on the watch itself.


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## Yao

MartinCRC said:


> The dials look absolutely fantastic - thank you for updating us. I have one comment about the date dial: I find that the black on white/silver coupled to the very modern font jars slightly with the heroic attention to period detail being followed elsewhere. Is there a possibility either for an option of a white on black date wheel (to be less conspicuous) or to use a softer font, more in line with that used on date wheels of the late 50's early 60's.
> 
> Thanks
> Martin


A matte black background white text date wheel should be available by the time this watch is being delivered. I have ordered just such a date wheel for a different project. Unfortunately due to the Kingston's limited nature and the fact that the original "Bond" watch was non-date it won't be cost effective to custom print a white background, black text date wheel with a period font. A good idea though.


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## Yao

timbo said:


> Nice work Bill!
> 
> How about a scan of the lume in action?


I will see what I can do but I am working a 7 day schedule trying to get caught up....but I will see what I can do.

I will post pics of the C3 versions of the dial and hands later on when I have time to assemble the samples.


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## Yao

Saxon007 said:


> I'm also a bit confused about the lume. Is there one type on the dial or will we have a choice? And if there is only one type, which one is it? I want the dial lume to be the same as the bezel lume on mine.
> 
> BTW, the samples look sweet. :-!


You will have a choice between C3 and BG W9. Naturally the lume will be consistent through out the watch's dial, hands, and bezel insert. I just wanted to mention that the C3 parts may not meet demand if I have guessed wrong about the way people will vote in the end. I have to make an educated guess at this point as to the actual demand of the C3 parts.


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## sunster

That's fantastic news


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## Inq

Yao said:


> A matte black background white text date wheel should be available by the time this watch is being delivered. I have ordered just such a date wheel for a different project. Unfortunately due to the Kingston's limited nature and the fact that the original "Bond" watch was non-date it won't be cost effective to custom print a white background, black text date wheel with a period font. A good idea though.


I don't know if anyone suggested it yet and if it would be feseable, but a gold on black date would be something special...

Cheers, 
Catalin


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## Tetraflop

Yao said:


> Mostly this is a result of the way the photo was taken. There is a very small gap between the gold outlines and the lume marker. While there is a gap the photos exaggerates the size of that gap.
> 
> .


Very happy with this detail!
Think it will be hard to realize.










___________
Dietmar


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## Donald Grant

Bill,

I posted about this over at Absolutely James Bond because a number of people there have ordered the Kingston. I borrowed one of your pictures and hope that's O.K. If not I'll gladly remove it. Great job thus far, I can't wait. Here is the AJB link:

http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/32133/connery-bond-homage-watch/page/2/

DG


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## SirRolf

Donald Grant said:


> Bill,
> 
> I posted about this over at Absolutely James Bond because a number of people there have ordered the Kingston. I borrowed one of your pictures and hope that's O.K. If not I'll gladly remove it. Great job thus far, I can't wait. Here is the AJB link:
> 
> http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/32133/connery-bond-homage-watch/page/2/
> 
> DG


Oh no!!! I didn't get in on the pre-order, I hope they don't all get gobbled up now by the James Bond fans! 

-SR


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## sunster

I see the TZ-UK site is also following this one

http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66602


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## bompi

Back from vacations and finding all these news is bliss !
The dial looks definitively great, with all the captions (really RLX-like !) and the 'L SWISS L' makes me reconsider the date option ...
Although I expected it to be my Xmas present , seeing the project evolve and all your explanations are worth the wait.
I must say I'm _really_ glad to have joined early enough this project !!


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## MartinCRC

Yao said:


> A matte black background white text date wheel should be available by the time this watch is being delivered.


I think this will be a very good compromise, thank you!

Martin


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## kojo

Hi Bill,
I like it bigtime... Very nice to get an update. As an artist, I prefer to be left alone while I work.. It's much appreciated that you've taken the time to let us all know how things are going_.._
_Q: Is there any chance/option of the white color depth readings on the face being written in gold ( insted of white) to match the rest of the face? (I'm not sure why the depth reading should have such precedence, though I *do* get the historic accuracy theme*. I think it would surpass the original to keep the whole script in the same gold color. The white script kinda knocks the balance off a bit..)_ but hey, I'm already in love with it and can' t wait for the day it arrives.. 
All the best, kojo..

*Answering my own question?


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## iFunky

kojo said:


> *Answering my own question?


:-d


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## Yao

kojo said:


> Hi Bill,
> I like it bigtime... Very nice to get an update. As an artist, I prefer to be left alone while I work.. It's much appreciated that you've taken the time to let us all know how things are going_.._
> _Q: Is there any chance/option of the white color depth readings on the face being written in gold ( insted of white) to match the rest of the face? (I'm not sure why the depth reading should have such precedence, though I *do* get the historic accuracy theme*. I think it would surpass the original to keep the whole script in the same gold color. The white script kinda knocks the balance off a bit..)_ but hey, I'm already in love with it and can' t wait for the day it arrives..
> All the best, kojo..
> 
> *Answering my own question?


I hadn't considered doing the depth text in gold but based on my discussions with the dial manufacturer I would think that there is a strong chance the text is too fine to be done well. If you look at the old Rolex dials from the period the "Rolex" text on these types of gold dials were thicker than the straight paint printed ones.


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## Rafael_T

*Looks great, Bill!*

Can't wait for mine.

Rafael T


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## MID

That is bloody gorgeous. I'm not a big Rolex type design fan , but that is a beautiful dial and hands, a wonderful manifestation of an iconic watch. (I didn't order a Kingston, but that's OK. I have a TR-900 on order.)


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## kent

the bracelet. the original rivet bracelets are not well duplicated. the original is much thinner ie 2.3mm vice 2.9mm. it would be nice to see a good rivet bracelet...


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## Yao

kent said:


> the bracelet. the original rivet bracelets are not well duplicated. the original is much thinner ie 2.3mm vice 2.9mm. it would be nice to see a good rivet bracelet...


My guess is that you will be only somewhat satisfied if I am to be honest. The quality will be better than what you currently find say on ebay but the look will only be slightly closer to the original. The links are slightly thinner than the aftermarket one that you have but the length of each link is shorter than the original.


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## siggy

Yao said:


> My guess is that you will be only somewhat satisfied if I am to be honest. The quality will be better than what you currently find say on ebay but the look will only be slightly closer to the original. The links are slightly thinner than the aftermarket one that you have but the length of each link is shorter than the original.


It will always be a balance between staying as close as possible to the original and modern practicalities and expectations. I've never owned an original riveted bracelet but from other people's previous posts the old bracelet's strength and longevity are found wanting when compared to modern manufacturing techniques.

During the design discussion process of the actual watch I was probably one of the most vocal in pointing out tiny little differences between the original and the proposed design of the watch. I was not just trying to be difficult just for the sake of it but I thought the best time to air opinions was when things could be changed, not wait until it was too late.

Since then I have still been looking closely at various pics of original big crown subs and the more I look the more difference I see even between originals. Rolex didn't make the big crowns for very long but there still seems to be a lot of variation between different examples.

To me this just emphasizes the difficult choices any designer of a homage to a Big crown sub would need to make. In this case Bill is the one making the choices. I'm happy this is the way it is given Bill's previous track record but it will always be difficult for him to please everyone as any watch he makes may be true to one version of a Big Crown but might be different to another original example. I now appreciate this fact more than ever.

After all these choices have been made I do believe Bill will give us a great looking watch with a very coherent overall design :-!

regards

siggy


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## sunster

Given Bill's reputation for attention to detail and design, I'll trust him on what he decides to do with the bracelet....let's be honest we're getting this watch for a snip (imho) given the work, detail and quality this watch will be. (I'm lining this one actually to be worn with a nice gator band but then my mind might change when it comes :-!)

Keep the updates coming!!


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## Yao

siggy said:


> It will always be a balance between staying as close as possible to the original and modern practicalities and expectations. I've never owned an original riveted bracelet but from other people's previous posts the old bracelet's strength and longevity are found wanting when compared to modern manufacturing techniques.
> 
> During the design discussion process of the actual watch I was probably one of the most vocal in pointing out tiny little differences between the original and the proposed design of the watch. I was not just trying to be difficult just for the sake of it but I thought the best time to air opinions was when things could be changed, not wait until it was too late.
> 
> Since then I have still been looking closely at various pics of original big crown subs and the more I look the more difference I see even between originals. Rolex didn't make the big crowns for very long but there still seems to be a lot of variation between different examples.
> 
> To me this just emphasizes the difficult choices any designer of a homage to a Big crown sub would need to make. In this case Bill is the one making the choices. I'm happy this is the way it is given Bill's previous track record but it will always be difficult for him to please everyone as any watch he makes may be true to one version of a Big Crown but might be different to another original example. I now appreciate this fact more than ever.
> 
> After all these choices have been made I do believe Bill will give us a great looking watch with a very coherent overall design :-!
> 
> regards
> 
> siggy


Very true Siggy. I appreciate all the input and attention you guys paid during the design phase and its going to be a better watch for it.

The watch will end up being a blend of a number of 6538 case types from that era to make up something that fits what I believe the conception of the watch is as it is held by the community at large. Siggy is right in that there were an unusually large number of variations between the cases in the 6538 series. I reviewed each as many as I could find and blended together what I thought were the best elements from each type.


----------



## NWP627

Yao said:


> I reviewed each as many as I could find and blended together what I thought were the best elements from each type.


That's what makes a MKII a MKII, thanks Bill
N


----------



## Peahi

*Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*

I think you can sell 100k of these (slight exaggeration).

PS. I wasn't sure if this photo was already posted here....the original thread was so long. Sorry if its a re-tread.


----------



## Yao

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



Peahi said:


> I think you can sell 100k of these (slight exaggeration).
> 
> PS. I wasn't sure if this photo was already posted here....the original thread was so long. Sorry if its a re-tread.


By the way there is a guy in Australia and one in the UK that are offering straps that are built the same as the one shown in the films. I have some samples coming in and will post some pics and a brief review.


----------



## gerard88t

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



Yao said:


> By the way there is a guy in Australia and one in the UK that are offering straps that are built the same as the one shown in the films. I have some samples coming in and will post some pics and a brief review.


 Bill,
Are they the same as we have seen by someone else that used to be here?


----------



## Yao

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



gerard88t said:


> Bill,
> Are they the same as we have seen by someone else that used to be here?


Same look but different sources. One is from a new guy coming out of the UK and the other is Roti that sells on ebay. I think many people here know him. He used to post on MWR way back when. But these straps are not from "that guy".


----------



## tallguy

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



Yao said:


> Same look but different sources. One is from a new guy coming out of the UK and the other is Roti that sells on ebay. I think many people here know him. He used to post on MWR way back when. But these straps are not from "that guy".


I've bought a few "zulu" type straps from Roti....good stuff from a good guy:-!


----------



## Kayakman

Bill: What about the case design,are you looking at the "homage look" no crown guards?Brian(MK owner)


----------



## siggy

Kayakman said:


> Bill: What about the case design,are you looking at the "homage look" no crown guards?Brian(MK owner)


Brian,

Have a look at the original design thread

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=227002

regards

siggy


----------



## Bill Sohne

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*

Hi Bill

How thick is the Kingston in mm ?

Thanks looks great just waiting for my no date. also what is the difference between the lum choices ?

best

Bill sohne


----------



## messenius

Bill 

Great looking dial and thanks for the detailed info about the progress. 

One question: it looks like the hands in the pictures are maxi version ie. wider than in the original 6538. It would be interesting to hear why you decided to use these in Kingston. I think they look great and make Kingston look more contemporary.

Thanks
Messenius


----------



## Yao

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



Bill Sohne said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> How thick is the Kingston in mm ?
> 
> Thanks looks great just waiting for my no date. also what is the difference between the lum choices ?
> 
> best
> 
> Bill sohne


14.50 mm

the difference between the lume is just the color. C3 or BG W9 are the choices. C3 is slightly greenish and glows green. BG W9 is white and glows blue.


----------



## Yao

messenius said:


> Bill
> 
> Great looking dial and thanks for the detailed info about the progress.
> 
> One question: it looks like the hands in the pictures are maxi version ie. wider than in the original 6538. It would be interesting to hear why you decided to use these in Kingston. I think they look great and make Kingston look more contemporary.
> 
> Thanks
> Messenius


The hands are not "maxi-style". They aren't as thin as the original but they are more in line with the pre-maxi style hands.


----------



## TheDude

Yao said:


> The hands are not "maxi-style". They aren't as thin as the original but they are more in line with the pre-maxi style hands.


Ahh - interesting.

I was assuming they'd be similar to the Vantage hands, which are actually bigger than the maxi-hands on my GMT-IIc.


----------



## Steve356

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



Yao said:


> 14.50 mm thick


That sounds quite thick. Is the crystal high domed? I hope it takes a mm or two of that measurement :thanks


----------



## Bill Sohne

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*

Hi Bill

Sound 14.5 mm sounds great !!

and I think I would go for that BG W9 is white and glows blue.

Best

Bill Sohne



Yao said:


> 14.50 mm
> 
> the difference between the lume is just the color. C3 or BG W9 are the choices. C3 is slightly greenish and glows green. BG W9 is white and glows blue.


----------



## sschum

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



Yao said:


> 14.50 mm


Perfect, Bill. It just keeps getting better ;-)


----------



## messenius

Yao said:


> The hands are not "maxi-style". They aren't as thin as the original but they are more in line with the pre-maxi style hands.


Ok, thanks for glarifying this. It sounds even better now b-)


----------



## obie

*As a quick reminder:

The Kingston preorders are closed, there are no list to get in on the general ordering. If you are reading this and want a Kingston, you will need to wait until the general ordering phase opens to get one of the last 100 pieces of this project.

We do not have a standby list, nor are we notifying those that are interested in the Kingston as to when the general ordering will open.

General ordering will open once once we start to actually ship Kingston watches to those that are plank owners (1st preorder phase) and not before. This means that general ordering will open most likely in the fourth (4th) quarter of this year, or early 2010.*

As I am just like everyone else and want to get a Kingston on my wrist, those not on a preorder list will need to wait for the time when the ordering page is back open and you can select this amazing piece....


----------



## TheDude

Yao said:


> My guess is that you will be only somewhat satisfied if I am to be honest. The quality will be better than what you currently find say on ebay but the look will only be slightly closer to the original. The links are slightly thinner than the aftermarket one that you have but the length of each link is shorter than the original.


I'm thrilled with the design of the bracelet - especially the fact that the side/center links are offset (finally).

Other than the change from 20mm-18mm taper to 18mm- 16mm (still 20mm end link) that you outlined in the start of this thread, is this still pretty accurate Bill?


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

I have to admit to reservations about a taper to 16mm, my experience has been that a 2mm or 0mm taper is best for me, but I have faith in Bill's judgement.


----------



## Yao

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



Steve356 said:


> That sounds quite thick. Is the crystal high domed? I hope it takes a mm or two of that measurement :thanks


The crystal is a high dome and this is actually in line with the original thickness based on the data that I have. Technically it is actually thinner than a scaled up 6538 should be. :-d


----------



## Yao

TheDude said:


> I'm thrilled with the design of the bracelet - especially the fact that the side/center links are offset (finally).
> 
> Other than the change from 20mm-18mm taper to 18mm- 16mm (still 20mm end link) that you outlined in the start of this thread, is this still pretty accurate Bill?


The scale may be slightly off because of the reduced thickness but yes this is essentially correct.


----------



## Yao

JDS (Ohio) said:


> I have to admit to reservations about a taper to 16mm, my experience has been that a 2mm or 0mm taper is best for me, but I have faith in Bill's judgement.


Thanks John. It was a trade-off. Here were our two choices:

* Keep it the way I had originally designed it and the first link after the end-piece would damage the long lugs of the watch. The rivets would have banged into the ends of the case.
or
* Change the taper from 20-18 to 18-16 so that it clears the lugs. The unknown at this point is how will this change affect the comfort of the bracelet. I suspect that this will have a lot more to do with how heavy the head of the watch ends up being and less to do with the bracelet.

Based on past experience the size of the dial in this case should ensure that the watch isn't too heavy for this thinner bracelet but we shall see.


----------



## TheDude

Yao said:


> Based on past experience the size of the dial in this case should ensure that the watch isn't too heavy for this thinner bracelet but we shall see.


I'm not worried. Rolexes taper far more, and many are just as heavy. I like the taper and I'm sure it will be a great watch on the wrist. :-!:-!:-!


----------



## Steve356

*Re: Holy Smokes! That dial looks amazing!!*



Yao said:


> The crystal is a high dome and this is actually in line with the original thickness based on the data that I have. Technically it is actually thinner than a scaled up 6538 should be. :-d


That's great. Thanks for the quick reply


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

Like I said, I got faith.:-! But I do have a question: would it be practical to step the first link down to 18mm like you now have planned, but then build in zero taper down to the clasp? Or would that look weird? I sort of assumed you'd already looked at that option, so right now I am more or less curious. After all, I already have couple of Zodiacs with 18mm lugs that taper to 16mm at the bracelet clasp, and it seems to have little effect on comfort, as long as the weight of the watch head isn't too much. I got faith baby.b-)


----------



## siggy

kojo said:


> Hi Bill,
> I like it bigtime... Very nice to get an update. As an artist, I prefer to be left alone while I work.. It's much appreciated that you've taken the time to let us all know how things are going_.._
> _Q: Is there any chance/option of the white color depth readings on the face being written in gold ( insted of white) to match the rest of the face? (I'm not sure why the depth reading should have such precedence, though I *do* get the historic accuracy theme*. I think it would surpass the original to keep the whole script in the same gold color. The white script kinda knocks the balance off a bit..)_ but hey, I'm already in love with it and can' t wait for the day it arrives..
> All the best, kojo..
> 
> *Answering my own question?


Bill,

Is the depth rating on your sample dial printed in silver or white?

I had assumed it was silver but just looked white in those sample pics. Kojo obviously believes they are white hence his comment about them knocking the balance of the dial off.

As for historical accuracy I don't think this would be an argument for white print anyway. In the reference pics the depth rating "disappears" like the gilt printing, if the depth rating was in white I think it would be more prominent.










regards

siggy


----------



## TheDude

JDS (Ohio) said:


> Like I said, I got faith.:-! But I do have a question: would it be practical to step the first link down to 18mm like you now have planned, but then build in zero taper down to the clasp?


I personally don't like zero-taper bracelets, so if there's still any question about it, please count my vote for a tapered bracelet Bill.


----------



## Bill Sohne

Hi Bill

I think the 18 to 16 tapper is the right way to go...

Best

Bill Sohne



Yao said:


> Thanks John. It was a trade-off. Here were our two choices:
> 
> * Keep it the way I had originally designed it and the first link after the end-piece would damage the long lugs of the watch. The rivets would have banged into the ends of the case.
> or
> * Change the taper from 20-18 to 18-16 so that it clears the lugs. The unknown at this point is how will this change affect the comfort of the bracelet. I suspect that this will have a lot more to do with how heavy the head of the watch ends up being and less to do with the bracelet.
> 
> Based on past experience the size of the dial in this case should ensure that the watch isn't too heavy for this thinner bracelet but we shall see.


----------



## racerx454

*Thanks for the update, Bill.*

The dial looks great and I think the bracelet will work well.

Cheers!

-Kevin-


----------



## Yao

The dials should begin mass production tomorrow.

The lead time for these is around the end of October. Once we have a good look at them it will likely set the "tone" for delivery as this is the most unique of the parts being manufactured for this watch. 

At this time, the case samples are still on schedule for late September.


----------



## bompi

Thanks for the news.


----------



## sunster

Great news Bill


----------



## k7lro

When do you anticipate asking for the final payment from the plank owners? Thanks!


----------



## Yao

k7lro said:


> When do you anticipate asking for the final payment from the plank owners? Thanks!


Probably around November/December so that I can also figure out in what ratio to have the watches assembled in Switzerland (e.g. date vs. non-date, BG W9 vs. C3 etc...)

The anti-static air gun should be here in about 2 weeks. Just sent the payment for it. Should be interesting to start to use this piece of equipment.


----------



## k7lro

Good deal - that works for me. I appreciate the update.


----------



## Guest

Wow, that looks nice,


----------



## Guest

Yao said:


> Also the 2893-2 is much more expensive than the 2836-2 and would have required the price to exceed $1,000. The 2836-2 was the best choice overall.


This means there is a good shot at the price staying under 1k? I'm stunned by this watch. I been looking around for my next watch and this has just got up there in my priority list. It was either a diver or a pilot watch. From all the models and brands that I have come across, this is the most stunning. A custom Stingray has also got me all fired up.

I'm sorry, hopefully I'm not breaking any forum rules by asking the price, but I guess I'm a little anxious and excited. I can't wait till more updates come out.


----------



## bullitt731

SPQR said:


> This means there is a good shot at the price staying under 1k? I'm stunned by this watch. I been looking around for my next watch and this has just got up there in my priority list. It was either a diver or a pilot watch. From all the models and brands that I have come across, this is the most stunning. A custom Stingray has also got me all fired up.
> 
> I'm sorry, hopefully I'm not breaking any forum rules by asking the price, but I guess I'm a little anxious and excited. I can't wait till more updates come out.


RELAX

Bill always delivers on whatever project he undertakes regardless of the price.


----------



## Yao

SPQR said:


> This means there is a good shot at the price staying under 1k? I'm stunned by this watch. I been looking around for my next watch and this has just got up there in my priority list. It was either a diver or a pilot watch. From all the models and brands that I have come across, this is the most stunning. A custom Stingray has also got me all fired up.
> 
> I'm sorry, hopefully I'm not breaking any forum rules by asking the price, but I guess I'm a little anxious and excited. I can't wait till more updates come out.


I am going to do my best to keep it under $1K and as close to the current estimated MSRP as I can. Most of the final price will depend on the scrap rate for the dials.


----------



## Bill Sohne

Hi Bill

Would it help for you to know what type of Kingston we want ( plank and second tier people who already ordered and placed deposits ) ?

i personally would want a NON date , and a NON date spare dial for my kit. 

Thanks 

Bill Sohne


----------



## Yao

Bill Sohne said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> Would it help for you to know what type of Kingston we want ( plank and second tier people who already ordered and placed deposits ) ?
> 
> i personally would want a NON date , and a NON date spare dial for my kit.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bill Sohne


Thanks Bill but not yet. I am just hoping that the scrap rate won't be too bad. If it is high the non-spec dials will have to go back for re-printing and we will also likely have to order new dials because a percentage of the re-worked dials will probably be lost permanently. This naturally increases the cost of the project overall.


----------



## JohnnyP

bill sohne said:


> hi bill
> 
> would it help for you to know what type of kingston we want ( plank and second tier people who already ordered and placed deposits ) ?
> 
> I personally would want a non date , and a non date spare dial for my kit.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> bill sohne


+1


----------



## Yao

Update from the case supplier....the samples should ship out some time next week. I hesitate to say this as there will be the call for "pics"  but please note that I probably won't have time to post any pics until the last week of September/first week of October. I will need to review the parts for feedback to the mfg to hopefully get the Kingston into mass production ASAP.


----------



## sunster

Thanks for the update Bill


----------



## siggy

Yao said:


> Update from the case supplier....the samples should ship out some time next week. I hesitate to say this as there will be the call for "pics"  but please note that I probably won't have time to post any pics until the last week of September/first week of October. I will need to review the parts for feedback to the mfg to hopefully get the Kingston into mass production ASAP.


Yep, we all want pics BUT that boring little voice at the back of my head agrees that your review of the parts and feedback to the mfg is what really matters. Thanks for the update Bill.

regards

siggy


----------



## NWP627

Yao said:


> to hopefully get the Kingston into mass production ASAP.


 I completely agree with that sentiment! Thank you Bill
N


----------



## ntr

Yao said:


> Update from the case supplier....the samples should ship out some time next week. I hesitate to say this as there will be the call for "pics"  but please note that I probably won't have time to post any pics until the last week of September/first week of October. I will need to review the parts for feedback to the mfg to hopefully get the Kingston into mass production ASAP.


Thanks for the update:-!

OK, no time so far for picso| Any news concerning a possible timing for the choice of the dial, delivery to1st and 2nd plank owners, eventually attributed numbers :-s

OK, I let you keep on with the job

Regards


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

You know we are anxious, but don't let us distract you from doing it right, after all, MKII has a reputation for quality. Remember, we are essentially a bunch of kids who can't wait for Christmas morning to roll around.


----------



## gerard88t

Yao said:


> Update from the case supplier....the samples should ship out some time next week. I hesitate to say this as there will be the call for "pics"  but please note that I probably won't have time to post any pics until the last week of September/first week of October. I will need to review the parts for feedback to the mfg to hopefully get the Kingston into mass production ASAP.


Hi Bill,
What is your meaning of "mass production"? I believed this was going to be a limited run timepiece, and not something mass produced for everyone to own one. I was really anticipating owning one of only 300 Kingstons made, not one of a mass production. Can you clarify what is happeneing re: the limited production idea now? Thanks! ;-)


----------



## Dave E

gerard88t said:


> Hi Bill,
> What is your meaning of "mass production"? I believed this was going to be a limited run timepiece, and not something mass produced for everyone to own one. I was really anticipating owning one of only 300 Kingstons made, not one of a mass production. Can you clarify what is happeneing re: the limited production idea now? Thanks! ;-)


For an operation the size of Bill's, I assume that 300 _is_ mass production. I certainly haven't seen anything anywhere to suggest that Bill is planning to build any more than that.


----------



## obie

Mass production= production of the cases from the supplier. While we have limited the Kingston to 300 pieces, lets not forget that the plank owners get the kit which includes a spare case and the 2nd stage owners had the option to purchase the kit so 300 watches= 200 preorder owners who could make the kits which would = 400 cases for those owners plus the final 100 pieces, plus we need to order spares to keep for repairs down the line.

300 pieces is going to easily equal 500-700 cases for this project.

Case manufactures typically make and send out prototype cases before going into full productions to ensure that everything works and is to specs.


----------



## gerard88t

Thanks for the details Obie


----------



## putnam dan

Where do I sign up. Love this, such fantastic attention to detail!!!


----------



## k7lro

putnam dan said:


> Where do I sign up. Love this, such fantastic attention to detail!!!


You'll need to check MKII's Kingston page - the first two phases are fully subscribed so I think your only hope is to obtain one from via the general ordering phase.


----------



## putnam dan

Oh that sucks  I'd love to allocate the cash before it burns a hole


----------



## k7lro

putnam dan said:


> Oh that sucks  I'd love to allocate the cash before it burns a hole


That should be easy - give it to your wife or girlfriend to hold. Bill only took our initial deposits and the rest was allocated and set aside months ago.

If it were me, I'd subscribe to this thread and watch it like a hawk otherwise. Good luck!


----------



## Yao

The samples are in. I should be able to post pics within a week.


----------



## k7lro




----------



## sunster

Fantastic!!


----------



## rmasso

Yao said:


> The samples are in. I should be able to post pics within a week.


Can't wait! I assume you are referring to the case samples Bill? Would this include bezel and crystal or just case?

Rich


----------



## racerx454

*Thanks for the update, Bill.*

Pictures would be great!

K


----------



## usc1

Obie,

I can't seem to find a mention as to the approximate thickness of the watch. Is there an estimation? 

:thanks


----------



## sschum

14.50mm (see p. 4 of this thread)

Scott


----------



## Yao

That is correct. 

By the way I also just got in some "Bond" style straps from a different source out of England. I will post pics or ask Obie to take some shots of this version as well.


----------



## ntr

:thanks

really eager to see "all that"...


----------



## messenius

This sounds really exciting 

thanks for the update!


----------



## Bill J

Yao said:


> That is correct.
> 
> By the way I also just got in some "Bond" style straps from a different source out of England. I will post pics or ask Obie to take some shots of this version as well.


Hey Bill! I just found this forum tonight. Glad you are having all the success.
I am a 4 time MKII owner, all Blackwaters with some variations. Love all.

I am interested in the Kingston, looks like a great item. I am curious about the straps with the grey lines, so called Bond NATO thingies, I have not found one yet long enough for my 8 1/4 inch wrist, any sources you know of??

Anyway, you will see more of me Bill! Bill J in Phoenix, AZ.
ps, let me know when you are in town, I will take you to dinner again


----------



## k7lro

Bill J said:


> Anyway, you will see more of me Bill! Bill J in Phoenix, AZ.
> ps, let me know when you are in town, I will take you to dinner again


Dinner in PHX? When?










;-)


----------



## Bill J

k7lro said:


> Dinner in PHX? When?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;-)


Hey Neigbor! I thought I was the only MKII fan in Arizonie! Maybe we should do a burger sometime! Cheers.
Bill J


----------



## Yao

Bill J said:


> Hey Bill! I just found this forum tonight. Glad you are having all the success.
> I am a 4 time MKII owner, all Blackwaters with some variations. Love all.
> 
> I am interested in the Kingston, looks like a great item. I am curious about the straps with the grey lines, so called Bond NATO thingies, I have not found one yet long enough for my 8 1/4 inch wrist, any sources you know of??
> 
> Anyway, you will see more of me Bill! Bill J in Phoenix, AZ.
> ps, let me know when you are in town, I will take you to dinner again


Hi Bill J!! Glad to see you here and still into watches!  

If you remember what I look like.....I have 6" wrists. :-d The Maratac NATOs might be long enough for you?


----------



## k7lro

Bill J said:


> Hey Neigbor! I thought I was the only MKII fan in Arizonie! Maybe we should do a burger sometime! Cheers.
> Bill J


PM sent....


----------



## k7lro

Yao said:


> The samples are in. I should be able to post pics within a week.


Any updates?


----------



## TheDude

k7lro said:


> Any updates?


I vote that Bill hold back revealing the photos until after the meet in NYC. I'd like my first glimpse of the Kingston to be "live". (I plan to be in NYC)


----------



## Elwood

TheDude said:


> I vote that Bill hold back revealing the photos until after the meet in NYC. I'd like my first glimpse of the Kingston to be "live". (I plan to be in NYC)


Don't look then :-d


----------



## Quartersawn

Elwood said:


> Don't look then :-d


Problem solved! :-!


----------



## TheDude

It's only next Saturday fellas. It could easily take that long to see pics with our without the scheduled meet...


----------



## k7lro

TheDude said:


> I vote that Bill hold back revealing the photos until after the meet in NYC. I'd like my first glimpse of the Kingston to be "live". (I plan to be in NYC)


:rodekaart

*"Foul - WIS is out-of-bounds."*

If the world revolved around you, , I'd agree with you. But, sorry my friend, the rest of us are as anxioius as you are to get a glimpse - live or otherwise. :-d


----------



## tomr

Although I only live about three hours drive from NYC, and would love to attend the MKII gathering, I have to agree with K7 that the release of any photos to the forum should not be delayed due to the NYC meeting. After all, those attending will still have the distinct advantage of being the first to see and hold a Kingston first hand.

On a related note, I have been wondering when we will have to commit to the configuration of the watch we have pre-ordered, as I have been hoping to see actual pictures of the variations before deciding. I am leaning toward the red triangle bezel, no date, and BGw9 lume; but keep going back and forth between the gilt and silver hands. Perhaps we can start a poll to see how the variations are stacking up.

At any rate, as most are here, I am anxiously awaiting the photos from Bill.


----------



## sunster

tomr said:


> Although I only live about three hours drive from NYC, and would love to attend the MKII gathering, I have to agree with K7 that the release of any photos to the forum should not be delayed due to the NYC meeting. After all, those attending will still have the distinct advantage of being the first to see and hold a Kingston first hand.
> 
> On a related note, I have been wondering when we will have to commit to the configuration of the watch we have pre-ordered, as I have been hoping to see actual pictures of the variations before deciding. I am leaning toward the red triangle bezel, no date, and BGw9 lume; but keep going back and forth between the gilt and silver hands. Perhaps we can start a poll to see how the variations are stacking up.
> 
> At any rate, as most are here, I am anxiously awaiting the photos from Bill.


My sentiments too :-!


----------



## obie

Everyone, 

Bill will post pictures of the Kingston where he feels that it is appropriate. No reason to argue over something that Bill has control over. I know he is planning or already has taken shot of the prototype. When the time is right, they will be posted.


----------



## k7lro

obie said:


> Everyone,
> 
> Bill will post pictures of the Kingston where he feels that it is appropriate. No reason to argue over something that Bill has control over. I know he is planning or already has taken shot of the prototype. When the time is right, they will be posted.


Thanks bud - I think most of us were just having a little fun with the dude. I don't think anyone was all that upset.


----------



## Yao

k7lro said:


> Thanks bud - I think most of us were just having a little fun with the dude. I don't think anyone was all that upset.


Pictures will be posted Sunday. They are ready but I have to add the copyright information and the fact that the photos are pre-production mock-ups.

Other updates:

* Inserts for the watch are all done and have been delivered. 
* Crowns: Supplier finally let me know that they won't be ready until the end of this month. That's 5 weeks overdue but no sense arguing with them as they are a reputable company and am sure doing their best.
* Case body review is half-done. I couldn't complete it sooner because I needed to make sure the inserts fit the case sample.

Look forward to your feedback on the watch when the pics are posted.


----------



## GregoryD

That is great news, really looking forward to seeing the update!


----------



## SirRolf

OOoh oooh! I haven't been excited about a Sunday since I was a kid at Easter time. 

The pictures will be better for me than all that candy.

Cheers,

S.R.


----------



## Thieuster

Yao said:


> Pictures will be posted Sunday. They are ready but I have to add the copyright information and the fact that the photos are pre-production mock-ups.
> 
> Other updates:
> 
> * Inserts for the watch are all done and have been delivered.
> * Crowns: Supplier finally let me know that they won't be ready until the end of this month. That's 5 weeks overdue but no sense arguing with them as they are a reputable company and am sure doing their best.
> * Case body review is half-done. I couldn't complete it sooner because I needed to make sure the inserts fit the case sample.
> 
> Look forward to your feedback on the watch when the pics are posted.


This sums up exactly why I (and I think others too) are so happy with Bill's watches: the attention to detail and the 'I-don't-accept-less-than-perfect-quality' attitude makes that MKII watches stands out in a crowd. Let me tell you: in due time, this production process, the great communication and the custormer's involvment will become a legend of it's own.

Bill, thank you for sharing. I'll be glued to my laptop for the next 24 hrs.!

Menno


----------



## Inq

Helllo Bill,

Is there any new approx. estimate to when the general ordering for the Kingston will be open?

Will the EU distributors carry the watch or the oders will be made exclusively through the official website?


----------



## obie

As mentioned before, general ordering will open when pre-order watches actually start to ship. Additionally the final 100 pieces will be available to customers and dealers.


----------



## Yao

Here are the pics of the Kingston. This is the version with the C3 lume.

The first picture is of the watch on the Roti Bond strap:










This second picture is of the watch on the UK Bond strap by "aliasrichard" from MWR.










The crown pictured is a generic 7 mm crown I found at Jules Borel. It fits and is water tight. The 8 mm Mk II crowns are due in around the end of this month.

As for the straps I personally prefer the second one pictured. The colors are better. The strap by Roti and "the other guy" are closer to the actual movie but I think the black and gold strap by aliasrichard is the better match for this watch. That being said the Roti strap has a stiffer (but still very comfortable) strap material and more strap holes for a better fit.

The red triangle version I will post a pic of as soon as I can. The same goes for the BGW9 version of the watch above.

I look forward to hearing your comments....


----------



## k7lro

Yeah baby! Looking forward to the red triangle version.


----------



## vuhuynh

This is my 3rd post on this forum so far as I try to refrain myself from making comment but this time I can not help it.

Mr. Yao, it is a beautiful watch. I really like what I see.
The problem now is what am I going to do with my 5513-67?


----------



## sschum

Bill

The case, bezel, and dial look fabulous. :-!:-! I particularly like how the gold text looks in the finished product. I am looking forward to seeing the case with the final 8mm crown. The big crwon is the key to whole look. ;-) Also, please post a side view when you get a chance. 

Best,

Scott


----------



## baybombers

A great looking watch. I really like the gilt on black. Are the lume dots outined with gilt? I debated between pre-ordering on this one or going with a Stingray. I opted for the Stingray but know I would have been happy either. I look forward to seeing more pictures.


----------



## k7lro

Hey - did anyone alert The Dude that pictures are up?? :-d


----------



## Raez

Brilliant design Mr. Yao. I'm sorry for being so clueless, but could anybody inform me as to the "scheduled" release date?


----------



## messenius

Oh boy am I glad I made the pre-order! That is looking wonderful b-)

For the straps I prefer the first one. The texture looks nicer


----------



## ntr

Great looking watch and job :thanks 

When you post further pictures (red triangle,...), please do not hesitate to post a side view :roll:


----------



## Inq

Excellent pictures, awesome timepiece!


----------



## siggy

Great pictures Bill, that gilt print dial is wonderful in the case. Gives it an instant vintage look, really does.

The whole thing looks amazing and it doesn't even have the correct big crown on the "Big crown" watch to take it to the next level yet!

When you have finished your case review I look forward to hearing your opinions Bill on the parts we can't see from that pic. To you guys who will see the watch next week in New York, make sure you wind the rest of us up with how wonderful it is to be able to handle it person giving us all the details ;-)

regards

siggy


----------



## bompi

Looks really great ! Since the very beginning I've been confident it would be a great watch and here's a confirmation. IMHO, the dial is the best you ever made. Stunning !

Regarding the straps, on the pictures, I prefer the first one.

I still hope it's going to be my X-mas present ;-)
[and there's still the suspense about the serial number of the watch : who will get 007 ?]

Thanks for sharing the pictures.


----------



## iFunky

Thanks for posting Bill :-! It's amazing to see that the design & size of the crown can change so much in the essence of the watch



Looking forward to seing pictures with the 8mm crown :thanks


----------



## MartinCRC

Bill,
This is just superb. It would have been so easy for something to have been a bit 'off' but this is a triumph. I look forward to seeing the large crown and shots of the case from other angles. Any chance of a view of the date dial in situ?

Thanks

Martin


----------



## Dave E

Very, very nice indeed :-!


----------



## Seabadger

Looks absolutely fantastic - can't wait to see more of it as the release draws nearer.


----------



## simonsev

Really looking good, it will look fantastic with the big crown, great job b-)


----------



## kkwpk

Great job. I cant wait to see more pictures.


----------



## cpotters

Stunning, stunning, stunning! I cannot stress how much the tiniest little details help to collectively boost this watch into the stratosphere. Bill, you got sick during the design phase, overwhelmed with LRRP deadlines, bruised about by the whims of suppliers, querried by customers wanting to know about delays and, in general, pushing yourself hard to get all of these tiny - seemingly insignificant - finishing details right. You must ask yourself sometimes whether its really worth all of the hassle sometimes

Judging by the pictures we've seen and comments on the other threads, between the Kingston and the LRRP, this is the year in which you win the World Series AND the Suoerbowl. 

I can tell already that, should I need to sell all of my watches someday, and I have my final two to choose from, I'll be left with my 1940's stainless steel Calatrava and my Kingston. In preparation for that day, I guess I should start looking on the net for a Patek box, so I'll have something proper to ship it off in!

Congrats so far! Hope to see you in NYC


----------



## SirRolf

Wow it really looks great. The glossy gilt dial is really smart. I'll have to parrot a few other posts and say I may have found a new favorite watch. 

-S.R.


----------



## sunster

That looks awesome. 
I have to agree the second strap looks better to me.
I cannot wait to see the red triangled bezel and with the bgw9 lume dial as that's what I'm intending to go for.

Bill congrats, this looks like a classic


----------



## SeikoSickness

Looks phenomenal! Personally, I don't care which strap is included as I'll wear mine on the bracelet. But, if I was to choose I'd go with the second one.


----------



## sunster

Beautiful.

Could these pics be posted to the top of the thread to make them easy to view


----------



## rmasso

Bill,

Absolutely stunning job! I am so glad I got in the second stage of this. I put my faith in you to do it right based on all the other MKII's that I have seen and you did not let me down at all. 

I must say, when I have seen your homage watches in the past, many times I think the original edges out the homage by a tiny bit. I have to say, and I might get some disagreement on this, but try as I might, I looked at every possible photo of the original Rolex from the Bond films to other photo's I found on the net, and I must say I like the MKII Kingston more. I am so blown away by it. I am so glad I bought the spare parts kit as well. The gilt dial looks absolutely stunning. It even looks great with the crown that is on it now. I would not change a thing on that watch! Absolutely fantastic job. Congratulations on yet another success.

I can't wait to see the red triangle version! Lastly, if anyone could help me out here, what color does the C3 lume glow? What color does the BGW9 glow? I like the look of the C3 lume as it stands now.

I like the second strap better as well, it fits this watch better.

Can you also please post a profile view of the watch and a back view of the watch? I am very curious to see the raised Sapphire crystal.

My only regret is I wish I would have gotten in as a stage one and purchased two sets!

Lastly, I want to say that the attention to detail that you put into every piece that ships is absolutely amazing. Watchmaking today at other companies should be the way it is at MKII. MKII is now on my very short list of favorite watch brands.

Best Regards,

Richard


----------



## tallguy

Perfect! And that is the version I want, even with the spares (although I can never remember the lume differenceso|) Can't wait to see it on the bracelet, which is where mine will live out its long life|>|>|>|>


----------



## goz211

Bill,
The watch looks fantastic. 
Thanks for your attention to detail. 
I'm looking forward to seeing other angles of the watch & the different bezel, & lume combos.

That dial....Wow!:-!


----------



## racerx454

*Impressive*

Bill,

That picture reaffirms that my expectations will be met. My Stingray is among my favorite watches and I now expect the Kingston will be at least as fun. The dial is a masterpiece, but is well balanced by the hands, bezel, lugs and crown (even at 7mm). I am fortunate to have several vintage diver watches and I would say you have successfully captured the vintage look and feel so rarely achieved today from any manufacture. As with my other MkII watches I know the performance will also be superb, so I am eagerly awaiting delivery of my Kingston.

As for the straps, I have a Roti strap as pictured and my main issue with it is that it is 19mm wide, not 20mm. It looks in the photo as if it is also a bit narrow on the Kingston, compared to the Aliasrichard version. The tan is also a bit overpowering. Furthmore, I agree with you that the Aliasrichard version goes a little better with the watch, so that is my preference. I greatly look forward to seeing the rivet bracelet and the red triangle bezel, which I think will contribute immensely to the vintage look and feel.

Thank you for the preview and for providing feedback during the design process. Keep up the great work! |>

Kevin B


----------



## Cowbiker

Thanks for the peak Bill, on track for sure.

1. Definitely would like to see with the white lume
2. Any chance of a profile shot to see the dome to the sapphire?


----------



## NWP627

Excellent work Bill, thank you. Happily awaiting more photos and receipt of my Kingston.
N


----------



## rmasso

Yao said:


> As for the straps I personally prefer the second one pictured. The colors are better. The strap by Roti and "the other guy" are closer to the actual movie but I think the black and gold strap by aliasrichard is the better match for this watch. That being said the Roti strap has a stiffer (but still very comfortable) strap material and more strap holes for a better fit.


Bill,

Based on your comment above, I looked at the picture of the strap that Sean Connery wore in the films, unless I misunderstood your statement above, it appears the aliasrichard strap has a pattern much closer to the original Connery/Bond strap than does the Roti strap. As for the colors, they both seem a bit off.

I personally like the second one more and I also think it matches closer to Sean's strap. The photo I was looking at was the famous "lighter" one from Goldfinger where he has the lighter held up to the watch.

Best Regards,
Richard


----------



## buckman

Looking good-glad I pulled the trigger on the plank


----------



## WiscOmega

Nothing to add other than WOW. I wonder if I can raise the cash to buy 2 even though I only have a place in line for 1 in the pre-order..... can't wait for the bracelet pics.

Ciao


----------



## superado

Hi Bill and/or Obie,

First, very very nice, I am salivating...congrats again! I have a couple of questions as it seems the project is nearly "there,"

(1) Will there soon be a final list of options for those with orders (date vs. non-date dials, lume, red-triangle on bezel, etc.), and; (2) how will we be able to indicate which options we want, (when sending our payment balance)? I've searched the Kingston threads regarding this...apologies if I missed it.


----------



## tomr

I concur with everyone commenting so far that the watch looks fantastic. This is going to be a watch that will look great on any strap, as well as the bracelet we are all anxious to see as well. Of the two illustrated, I like the colors of the second better, but do prefer a somewhat stiffer material rather than a soft, cloth-like strap. Also, if, in fact, as mentioned in an earlier post, the Roti is 19mm, than the Aliasrichard would be the better fit.

When you do get to post photos of the red triangle version, would it be possible to show the watch with the silver hands and BGW9 lume? It is my hope to see all of the variations through your great photography prior to committing to a final version for my Phase 2 order. Thanks.


----------



## Thieuster

I had a quick look earlier at the pics this morning, using my wife's iPhone and a long walk along the beach until I found a spot where that phone was able to pick up a signal... (On holiday for a few days)

I came back to the hotel as a happy man! Now (it's 20:30 PM in Europe) it's time to write a comment; these pics look awesome! This watch has become a legend in one day. And I think all positive things in various postings has been said already. I would like to add myself to that long list!

Personally, I prefer the second strap. Combined with the red triangle, I think it will look superb.

And to echo the question of a few other happy men on this forum: Bill, can you show us the difference of the various lumen 'in the real'?

Menno


----------



## skogarn

Fantastic! :-!

Best Regards,
Skogarn


----------



## Galpo

Seeing those Kingston photos makes me very worried.
What will I do with all my other watches when I'll strap on that fabulous watch? b-)

Seriously, I could not be happier, it's just perfect.
I just have to decide on the hands, leaning towards the gilt but
not sure yet. I want it to look like the "from Russia with love", but can't
be sure if it had gilt or silver...
About the strap - I prefer the second one, color wise.

Here is the ad I made a few month ago... just for fun.










Thank you for this update - a few drops of water in the desert of waiting :-!
Galpo.


----------



## Docwein

*The watch looks outstanding....................................... .*

i am so glad I got in early (plank stage).


----------



## Inq

I really hope to buy one once the general ordering is open...


----------



## Quartersawn

I'm going for a red triangle/BGW9 watch so I'm curious as to how it looks and am eagerly awaiting photos. A side shot showing the crystal would be greatly appreciated.

Having said that, the watch photographed looks _spectacular. _My expectations appear to have been greatly exceeded. :-!


----------



## boddah

buckman said:


> Looking good-glad I pulled the trigger on the plank


+1

Looks fantastic b-)


----------



## GregoryD

Wow, my expectations have been met, and exceeded! I can't wait to see the bracelet and red triangle bezel. The 8mm crown will also look great, I'm sure. Really impressed!


----------



## aliasrichmond

Aaaaarrrggghhh Bill didnt show the buckle!!, this was the main issue to me, as these old school rounded type are virtualy extinct, this is what I concentrated on rather than the material colours, the copying/digitalizing etc... of 40yr old celluloid produces different shades of black, green & red, so what the actual colours will always be up for argument (i'm not even convinced the red stripes are real or not)

The buckles can be brushed or polished...

Anyway, fantastic watch, really envious of those who got in on the pre-order

Rgds
Jim
aliasrichmond (not aliasrichard :-s)


----------



## GraniteQuarry

OMG that looks the dog's danglies :-!

LOVE IT !!!


----------



## cpotters

Aaaaarrrggghhh Bill didnt show the buckle!!, this was the main issue to me, as these old school rounded type are virtualy extinct, this is what I concentrated on rather than the material colours, the copying/digitalizing etc... of 40yr old celluloid produces different shades of black, green & red, so what the actual colours will always be up for argument (i'm not even convinced the red stripes are real or not)

If anyone wants to see the buckle, see my post #66 under the thread "WHAT DOES EVERYONE THINK". The first picture features the buckle, which I would compare to this Bond pic.


----------



## kkmark

Bill:

Congrats on the Kingston! 

I really like the raised profile of the lume on the watch - this was something we couldn't see in the drawings - it's great! :-!

Can't wait to see the riveted bracelet.

I'm glad I snapped up 2 during the plank stage!

You won't have any issues selling this one out.

Best,

Ken


----------



## buckman

what's fun about this watch and I'm (no offense intended) a watch geek, is that there will only be 300 of them out there in the world (and I'll have one of them b-))


----------



## Yao

aliasrichmond said:


> Aaaaarrrggghhh Bill didnt show the buckle!!, this was the main issue to me, as these old school rounded type are virtualy extinct, this is what I concentrated on rather than the material colours, the copying/digitalizing etc... of 40yr old celluloid produces different shades of black, green & red, so what the actual colours will always be up for argument (i'm not even convinced the red stripes are real or not)
> 
> The buckles can be brushed or polished...
> 
> Anyway, fantastic watch, really envious of those who got in on the pre-order
> 
> Rgds
> Jim
> aliasrichmond (not aliasrichard :-s)


Sorry about that Jim :-( I fixated on the strap material and the watch but not on the buckle itself. I think you are correct about the colors. It will always be up for debate. However if you ask me your color scheme seems more "right". The blue in the other two versions of the strap just seem slightly awkward.


----------



## Spy

Bill, I think you have outdone yourself here - the watch looks fantastic.

I am just gutted that I came across your thread to late to make it into the phase 1 or 2 list :-(

I guess I will have to wait for general release


----------



## SirRolf

Spy said:


> Bill, I think you have outdone yourself here - the watch looks fantastic.
> 
> I am just gutted that I came across your thread to late to make it into the phase 1 or 2 list :-(
> 
> I guess I will have to wait for general release


haha, you and me both brother. Let's just hope there aren't more than 98 OTHER people in our little boat or we're going to have much crying and gnashing of teeth. 

-S.R.


----------



## Kayakman

Bill: Great looking watch,the crown pictured is that the one that will be standard,or will there be a Brevet style type???


----------



## RandyRP

Yao said:


> Here are the pics of the Kingston. This is the version with the C3 lume.
> 
> I look forward to hearing your comments....


Looking pretty incrediible to be sure...The dial makes the watch. Well the hands look superb too and excellently proportioned. (unlike many of the type out there.)

For customers I am sure the wait was worth it..But for MKII I am sure it must be rewarding to bring such a beauty to fruition.

If I recall correctly there was a post about how the dials where made and a new tool Bill bought to help, I would love to re-read it but can;t find it.

Also does any one know of a NATO similar to the one's in Bill's photo's that will work on a 9 1/4 - 9 1/2 wrist ?


----------



## rmasso

Kayakman said:


> Bill: Great looking watch,the crown pictured is that the one that will be standard,or will there be a Brevet style type???


Excellent question which I forgot to mention in my post as well. I quite like how it looks with that crown as is, so I am curious if the actual one will be as pictured but only 8mm instead of 7mm or Brevet style like on the original Rolex.

Richard


----------



## superado

RandyRP said:


> If I recall correctly there was a post about how the dials where made and a new tool Bill bought to help, I would love to re-read it but can;t find it.


Hi Randy, I looked for it myself yesterday to re-read Bill's account, which is just fascinating. It's on the very 1st page of this thread, the real long post from Bill.


----------



## RandyRP

superado said:


> Hi Randy, I looked for it myself yesterday to re-read Bill's account, which is just fascinating. It's on the very 1st page of this thread, the real long post from Bill.


Thank you very much..I hated to sound lazy, but the anticipation has generated quite a bit of posts, which is to be expected. Since the dial is so awesome, I wanted to re-read the challenges of creating it as it shows Bill's commitment to excellence.


----------



## Kayakman

Brevet crown,Otto Frei had them at one time,but I would venture to say you will see no more,maybe there is an 8mm that comes close to that,I do not know,I am not privey to that much info.Brian.


----------



## Kayakman

Bill what size is the crown on the Vantage? That seems to be the style that would go with the Kingston in 8MM.It seems that that big Brevet crown style really stands out...Brian...PS have 1 of your Stingray`s,a lot of compliments on it.....


----------



## Yao

rmasso said:


> Excellent question which I forgot to mention in my post as well. I quite like how it looks with that crown as is, so I am curious if the actual one will be as pictured but only 8mm instead of 7mm or Brevet style like on the original Rolex.
> 
> Richard


Okay.....stupid question but what do you see as really defining the"Brevet" style crown? The crowns aren't coming from the same supplier so the final crown won't be a directly up-sizing of the one shown.

The final crown will essentially be what was shown originally in the drawings that I posted. The crown is beveled away from the case body more than the 7 mm version shown here. My logo will be on the crown but no "Brevet" will be on the crown (primarily because it means "Patented" and I don't own have any rights to engrave that on there.)


----------



## rmasso

Kayakman said:


> Brevet crown,Otto Frei had them at one time,but I would venture to say you will see no more,maybe there is an 8mm that comes close to that,I do not know,I am not privey to that much info.Brian.


I quite like the crown that is on the KINGSTON now, it has good depth to it. *Bill, will the 8mm crown be as deep as the one in the photo?* I really like the look of that crown a lot. Am hoping the 8mm crown's don't change the look too much...

Richard


----------



## rmasso

Yao said:


> Okay.....stupid question but what do you see as really defining the"Brevet" style crown? The crowns aren't coming from the same supplier so the final crown won't be a directly up-sizing of the one shown.
> 
> The final crown will essentially be what was shown originally in the drawings that I posted. The crown is beveled away from the case body more than the 7 mm version shown here. My logo will be on the crown but no "Brevet" will be on the crown (primarily because it means "Patented" and I don't own have any rights to engrave that on there.)


Bill, Sorry about the use of Brevet, when someone else used it in a previous posting, I just assumed it was a particular known style of Rolex crown. The crown you refer to in your technical drawings is more beveled as you mention above. I was comparing the technical drawing to the hoto yesterday. I guess I just liked the look of that crown so much in the photo that I am now very curious to see what it looks like with the actual crown.

In the end, I trust your judgment Bill, you have not let us down yet.  I am sure whatever crown you finally agree to use will look as aesthetically pleasing as this one if not even better. Do you know if the crown will be deep like the one currently there? I guess in the end as long as we have a big bold crown that stands out then the watch should look fantastic!

Best Regards,
Richard


----------



## justsellbrgs

not sure Bill.... this may be the reference?

http://www.ukwatches.com/images/5510mil.jpg

...on a side note I cringe when I read this thread.... One reason Bill may not post update pics is too many forumers micro analyze. It may get to the point that Bill does not post pics and we are left wondering.

Just review the pics --- do you really think Bill is going to construct some type of "hack" design..??. has he ever?

product will be top notch, bet on it.


----------



## Cowbiker

Yao said:


> ...The final crown will essentially be what was shown originally in the drawings that I posted. The crown is beveled away from the case body more than the 7 mm version shown here. My logo will be on the crown but no "Brevet" will be on the crown (primarily because it means "Patented" and I don't own have any rights to engrave that on there.)


:-! The original drawing is appropriate, the off the self 7mm on the prototype is far too tall (length from the case, not to be confused with diameter which should be 8mm as planned) for the period and the look.

I'm with you Bill, stay the course on the crown.


----------



## rmasso

Not saying he should stray, just saying I fell in love with that watch in the photo. Am sure it will look even more stunning with the period crown. I fully trust Bill, I bought before looking didn't I? ;-)

I am sure the end result will leave us speechless. I have already escalated the KINGSTON into my "favorite watch" category and all we've seen is one photo! Its truly a masterpiece!


----------



## Cowbiker

Have to agree with you Richard, this one will be something special.


----------



## k7lro

Looks like it's MWR-approved...although a few of us have posted in both forums. ;-)


----------



## pierre3

Hello Bill and others,

Super nice watch !! I am really happy to see this project advancing and
impatient to see other pictures...

Pierre


----------



## SirRolf

Hey all,

I may have missed this information in the quite long thread, but will there be different bezel inserts available like other MKIIs? ie. GMT, countdown?

Cheers,

S.R.


----------



## Donald Grant

Bill, I think you nailed it. Fantastic job! I posted about it over at AJB here:

http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/32133/connery-bond-homage-watch/page/2/

DG


----------



## cyclopath

Just to echo the comments of others, this is superb. I think I am decided on that combination with the red triangle, but will wait for more pics.
Probably my most anticipated watch for a couple of years.
Great work Bill, it will make a good companion to my Stingray (which by the way still keeps time to about 1-2 sec / day):-!


----------



## siggy

rmasso said:


> I quite like the crown that is on the KINGSTON now, it has good depth to it. *Bill, will the 8mm crown be as deep as the one in the photo?* I really like the look of that crown a lot. Am hoping the 8mm crown's don't change the look too much...
> 
> Richard


I think Bill's crown will only make it look better. The original crown was more "sculpted" for want of a better word, that Ofrei one looks too linear ( and the finish looks a bit dull).

regards

siggy


----------



## TheDude

I am a bit at a loss by the outpouring of support for the makeshift crown. This -is- supposed to pay homage to a "big crown" sub. That makes the crown perhaps -the- most defining characteristic of the watch, and I am looking forward to seeing the real MKII crown.


BTW, phenomenal Bill.


----------



## rmasso

TheDude said:


> I am a bit at a loss by the outpouring of support for the makeshift crown. This -is- supposed to pay homage to a "big crown" sub. That makes the crown perhaps -the- most defining characteristic of the watch, and I am looking forward to seeing the real MKII crown.
> 
> BTW, phenomenal Bill.


I guess it just looks nice/unique. But I am sure it will look fantastic when Bill installs the actual Big Crown. And you are right, that is one of the defining parts of the watch. I am sure it will look fantastic when it all comes together with bracelet and all.

Bill, any chance of a profile shot so we can see the rasied Sapphire crystal? Please?

:-!

Best Regards,
Richard


----------



## MartinCRC

TheDude said:


> I am a bit at a loss by the outpouring of support for the makeshift crown.


What outpouring of support? One person said they quite like the look of the makeshift crown. That's not an outpouring in my book.

Martin


----------



## tallguy

http://www.network54.com/Forum/2075...PASSION+2009.....+full+throttle+(mega-burner)


----------



## bullitt731

justsellbrgs said:


> not sure Bill.... this may be the reference?
> 
> http://www.ukwatches.com/images/5510mil.jpg
> 
> ...on a side note I cringe when I read this thread.... One reason Bill may not post update pics is too many forumers micro analyze. It may get to the point that Bill does not post pics and we are left wondering.
> 
> Just review the pics --- do you really think Bill is going to construct some type of "hack" design..??. has he ever?
> 
> product will be top notch, bet on it.


+1 here, some of you people need to relax. Bill will once again exceed our expectations. If for some reason you are disappointed with the final product there will be more than enough interested parties to take it off your hands.

I am honestly embarrased by some of the comments I have read here, get a life.o|


----------



## Yao

bullitt731 said:


> +1 here, some of you people need to relax. Bill will once again exceed our expectations. If for some reason you are disappointed with the final product there will be more than enough interested parties to take it off your hands.
> 
> I am honestly embarrased by some of the comments I have read here, get a life.o|


Okay can we leave it here unless there is something more constructive to be added. I am casing LRRPs right now and having a hard time concentrating while wondering if this is going to flare up into something more.

The good news....if you like the 7 mm crown one can be fitted to your watch (not by me :-d) as they are readily available at Jules Borel. The 8 mm crown on the other hand...we will just have to see what it looks like when it gets here. Naturally I have a good idea what it will look like but we'll just have to see what it looks like when it gets here.

I do appreciate everyone taking a close look at this watch. No one is perfect but hopefully none of us has to find out if I am more "human" than average


----------



## timbo

I love how this project is developing. It's so satisfying to follow this from the early polls and drawings to these photos of such a beauty. Not only am I going to get a great watch, but I've personally learned a lot about the whole process.

The watch itself is stunning. The dial and hands work so well with the case and bezel. I think that extra research on how rolex achieved that glossy black and gold dial has really paid off. It's really an incredible watch. Can't wait to see that big crown and the bracelet tie it all together. 

Great job, Bill


----------



## rmasso

Yao said:


> The good news....if you like the 7 mm crown one can be fitted to your watch (not by me :-d) as they are readily available at Jules Borel. The 8 mm crown on the other hand...we will just have to see what it looks like when it gets here. Naturally I have a good idea what it will look like but we'll just have to see what it looks like when it gets here.


Thanks for the response Bill!

I won't be modding anything, I am sure once the final product comes out I will be very pleased by it. I've yet to see a MKII watch that I didn't like. :-!

Best Regards,
Richard


----------



## WiscOmega

Silly question, when you say "big crown" does that mean like this one?

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/meeting/100passion 2009/100Passion200939.jpg

Ciao,


----------



## sschum

WiscOmega said:


> Silly question, when you say "big crown" does that mean like this one?
> 
> http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/bullibeer/meeting/100passion 2009/100Passion200939.jpg
> 
> Ciao,


Yes.

Scott


----------



## dave43

I love the vintage look. Bill nailed it.


----------



## 66Cooper

This is an amazing watch. Anyone want out, I have your deposit waiting

No, seriously!


----------



## buckman

66Cooper said:


> This is an amazing watch. Anyone want out, I have your deposit waiting
> 
> No, seriously!


any offers on that yet?


----------



## 66Cooper

No...and I AM holding my breath too. Somebody save me before I kick the bucket over here!


----------



## obie

_As a note to those just finding the Kingston watch project and are interested in purchasing one.

1. Pre-orders are closed.
2. We are not having a notification email list when the general ordering will open.
3. General ordering will open when preorder watches ship. We do not have a firm date for shipping.
4. Parts kit are not available for purchase for general ordering Kingstons.
5. There will be 100 Kingstons available through general ordering for direct sales, and for our dealers.
6. If you email us, we still can't get you on a standby list or notify you when the Kingston is available. Preorders are closed._

We are sorry that some people missed out on the preorder, or found out about the Kingston just now. Again, there will be 100 Kingstons available through general ordering, and we will make an announcement here on the forum when it opens.


----------



## simonsev

Will bribes work?


----------



## buckman

I'm guessing that there are 200 very happy Kingston deposit holders right now


----------



## Zidane

Looks great Bill. Add me to the list that wishes they would have pre-ordered.


----------



## Andre B

Realy closed...?
After LRPP ( still waiting...), this watch will be mine !!


_1. Pre-orders are closed._
_2. We are not having a notification email list when the general ordering will open._
_3. General ordering will open when preorder watches ship. We do not have a firm date for shipping._
_4. Parts kit are not available for purchase for general ordering Kingstons._
_5. There will be 100 Kingstons available through general ordering for direct sales, and for our dealers._
_6. If you email us, we still can't get you on a standby list or notify you when the Kingston is available. Preorders are closed._

We are sorry that some people missed out on the preorder, or found out about the Kingston just now. Again, there will be 100 Kingstons available through general ordering, and we will make an announcement here on the forum when it opens.[/QUOTE]


----------



## sunster

Just wondering if there are any computer graphic genius' here who may be able to use Bill's CAD drawings and use them to demonstrate the various hands/ bezel / dial combinations to help all of us, who didn't have the pleasure of seeing it in the flesh in NYC, make a decision on spec to chose. I believe the options are

3 dial options:
Non-date, gilt print, BG W9 lume
Non-date, gilt print, C3 lume
Date, gilt print, BG W9 lume
Hands
Gilt hands with BGW9
Silver hands with C3
Silver hands with BG W9
Bezel insert options:
one with red triangle, one without hash marks


----------



## iFunky

Would be easier indeed :-d a french dude from another forum used to do that in flash .... very impressive :-!


----------



## Spy

sunster said:


> Just wondering if there are any computer graphic genius' here who may be able to use Bill's CAD drawings and use them to demonstrate the various hands/ bezel / dial combinations to help all of us, who didn't have the pleasure of seeing it in the flesh in NYC, make a decision on spec to chose. I believe the options are
> 
> 3 dial options:
> Non-date, gilt print, BG W9 lume
> Non-date, gilt print, C3 lume
> Date, gilt print, BG W9 lume
> Hands
> Gilt hands with BGW9
> Silver hands with C3
> Silver hands with BG W9
> Bezel insert options:
> one with red triangle, one without hash marks


I think you are just want to make the rest of us (who didn't get in on the pre-order) jeolous ;-)


----------



## -thorsten-

Bill posted this a while ago. Enough to get you started.


----------



## sunster

I know about this but just wondered if there were any wizards there who fancied a little project


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

I was just wondering if anything has been said about a bezel insert with the tick marks for the first 15 minutes, but without the red triangle? Or will there be just the two choices, as shown?


----------



## k7lro

.


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

That is probably a good thing, saves me some "dithering".:-d


----------



## Rubber Strap

sunster said:


> Just wondering if there are any computer graphic genius' here who may be able to use Bill's CAD drawings and use them to demonstrate the various hands/ bezel / dial combinations to help all of us, who didn't have the pleasure of seeing it in the flesh in NYC, make a decision on spec to chose.


I am not sure this image is anything like what you were hoping to see, but I mocked up this configuration:










I am interested in this version, though I probably have little chance of getting it.


----------



## 66Cooper

Thats what I would like as well. Great combo!


----------



## Yao

I am currently working on the final report for the case manufacturer. Took a lot of detailed photos of the "non-compliant" points. 

I will spare you the details mostly because it is truly better not to know. Unless you have a sadistic need to worry incessantly about imaginary issues. Its one of those things that you never worry about because you don't know they can happen....once you do know they can happen there is a tendency to obsesses about them. 

I hope to have the report done by tomorrow and assuming no serious issues raised in the feedback from the manufacturer we should be off to the races by next week.

The crowns are "now" scheduled for completion at the end of next week. I keep following up but the date keeps getting "updated" (sound familiar....like a chain reaction) ;-) We can proceed with mass production of the cases without the crowns as there are not any anticipated clearance issues (no crown guards to worry about) :-d

No photos of the bracelet yet.....sorry but it may have to wait until I get the crowns in and I will have detailed photos taken then. 

The bad news is that given the date that this review is getting done its not likely that the cases will be ready before the end of the year. I will only know a better timetable once the mass production has started.


----------



## colinman.77

Thanks for the update Bill. Just knowing where you are in the process makes the wait more tolerable.


----------



## Thieuster

colinman.77 said:


> thanks for the update bill. Just knowing where you are in the process makes the wait more tolerable.


 +1:-!


----------



## sunster

Rubber Strap said:


> I am not sure this image is anything like what you were hoping to see, but I mocked up this configuration:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am interested in this version, though I probably have little chance of getting it.


Fantastic...that's the configuration I was thinking about too


----------



## sunster

Thanks for the update and look forward to reading your report.
Us WIS are obsessive types and love hearing any updates even if its bad news.
If no Kingstons will be complete this year then so be it, I'm sure you're doing the best you can


----------



## rmasso

*Re: The Mk II Paradive the second step in a new direction:*



Yao said:


> The Specialist series will be our 2nd tier collection priced under $1k. This will include the Sea Fighter, the LE Kingston and Vantage. These watches will feature 100 - 200 meters water resistance. The quality and price of these watches will remain the same with more subtle improvements made over time.


Bill,

First off, congratulations on the moving forward of the company and the improved quality. As usual, a few questions about the above comment.

You include the LE Kingston in the list and mention some subtle improvements over time, perhaps I misread but do these improvements include the Kingston as it is Limited to 300? Maybe the improvements are coming quicker than I thought.

Also, a few Kingston questions that never did get answered:
1. Will the matte dial with white lettering be available for the Kingston LE 300? It was never discussed before and then we all saw pictures of it from the NY meet.
2. If the matte white lettering dial will be available, is it possible that we will have a bezel like the red triangle bezel, with the minute graduations from 0 to 15 but with a silver triangle instead of a red one?
3. I know you are quite busy, but is there any chance we will get photos soon as promised on the bracelet and also some high quality photos of the two Kingstons that were seen at the meet? A profile shot would be nice as well to see how raised that crystal really is.

Thanks,
Richard


----------



## Yao

*Re: The Mk II Paradive the second step in a new direction:*



rmasso said:


> Also, a few Kingston questions that never did get answered:
> 1. Will the matte dial with white lettering be available for the Kingston LE 300? It was never discussed before and then we all saw pictures of it from the NY meet.


Yes it will be. I believe it was an option mentioned during the design phase. Some people weren't too sure about the glossy dial so this became an option. The dial is marked "Kingston".



rmasso said:


> 2. If the matte white lettering dial will be available, is it possible that we will have a bezel like the red triangle bezel, with the minute graduations from 0 to 15 but with a silver triangle instead of a red one?


Not for the Kingston.



rmasso said:


> 3. I know you are quite busy, but is there any chance we will get photos soon as promised on the bracelet and also some high quality photos of the two Kingstons that were seen at the meet? A profile shot would be nice as well to see how raised that crystal really is.


I will post more pics. I have been waiting for the crowns to come in. That way we only have to take one set of pics. Still waiting to hear from the supplier. The "latest" deadline came and went so I have to go bug them.


----------



## Yao

By the way in case anyone is curious the weight of the watch is going to be between 77 and 80 grams (head only)


----------



## rmasso

*Re: The Mk II Paradive the second step in a new direction:*



Yao said:


> I will post more pics. I have been waiting for the crowns to come in. That way we only have to take one set of pics. Still waiting to hear from the supplier. The "latest" deadline came and went so I have to go bug them.


If you could take a picture of the movement as well that would be greatly appreciated as well!
Thanks Bill!


----------



## Yao

*Re: The Mk II Paradive the second step in a new direction:*



rmasso said:


> If you could take a picture of the movement as well that would be greatly appreciated as well!
> Thanks Bill!


I will try. The decorated movements are a PITA to photograph. So far every time I have done it the movements don't look as good as they do in real life. With all the angles and engraving its hard to get the light to highlight everything at the same time.


----------



## iFunky

@ rmasso

I understand you are really excited about this Kingston project, as we all are, but I am pretty sure that you prefer knowing Bill working on the watches itself than taking pictures of a movement you can find on Internet.

ETA 2836-2










Regards

Yves


----------



## iFunky

too slow


----------



## WiscOmega

I may be the only one, but my head in spinning as the project moves towards completion. Lots of choices, all of them good.:-d

Quick question for Obie or Bill. When will first-Plank folks have to select the configuration they would like? How will that process work?

Thanks for your patience with my naive questions,


----------



## obie

When it comes closer to finalizing the preorders, all preorder members will receive an email with a link to pick their watches and related choices along with paying for the remainder of the watch. 

We don't have a firm date yet, as it is still dependent upon some manufactures finishing parts.


----------



## es335

Are there any high resolution professional images of the Kingston?


----------



## Yao

es335 said:


> Are there any high resolution professional images of the Kingston?


There are but for competitive reasons we won't be publishing them online. Most of the pictures we take start out at 2-3 Mb. Its kind of the same thing around most watch companies.


----------



## Yao

Got some updates from earlier today:

* The gold dials are inbound. 
* Crowns have been re-scheduled for shipment sometime this week

* For my feedback...nothing to report other than....the case supplier saying we will do better. At this point we are waiting on the estimated delivery date of the parts. 

To recap earlier developments:

* Bezel inserts are all done and in stock
* Hands are done and in stock
* Movements are expected in any day now.


----------



## messenius

It's getting closer :-d

Thanks for the update


----------



## NWP627

Thanks for the update Bill.
The only better news would be that you are starting to ship the watches.
N


----------



## colinman.77

I'm starting to get excited:-!
When do we get to pick our dial/hands/bezel configuration?


----------



## Yao

colinman.77 said:


> I'm starting to get excited:-!
> When do we get to pick our dial/hands/bezel configuration?


Probably when I get an estimated delivery date for the parts. However it seems unlikely we will do this before January. I have a lot of watches to finish by end of December.


----------



## cpotters

No Sweat, Bill! I want the best Kingston you can make, Not the fastest!


----------



## Bill Sohne

*how about making the hands satin gilt....?*

Hi Bill

While driving back to NJ with Marcos we were talking about the readability of the kingston... With the gilt dial and the shinny gilt hands something was amiss... We then realized it was the hands they should be a satin gilt and not the same hi shine as the dial...

Any thoughts ?

Best

Bill sohne.


----------



## gerard88t

*Re: how about making the hands satin gilt....?*

This thought is likely the only change from all requests in this thread I completely agree with. Bill is there an opportunity for this ever?



Bill Sohne said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> While driving back to NJ with Marcos we were talking about the readability of the kingston... With the gilt dial and the shinny gilt hands something was amiss... We then realized it was the hands they should be a satin gilt and not the same hi shine as the dial...
> 
> Any thoughts ?
> 
> Best
> 
> Bill sohne.


----------



## Seabadger

Can't recall seeing sating gilt hands on many watches, and I'm not sure that it would be necessary either aesthetically or in terms of legibility. It'd certainly be a significant deviation from the inspiration for the watch.


----------



## gerard88t

Look closer, with a quality monitor, at the Rolex this hommage represents. You will see the hands of the old Rolex are not polished but more matte.


Seabadger said:


> Can't recall seeing sating gilt hands on many watches, and I'm not sure that it would be necessary either aesthetically or in terms of legibility. It'd certainly be a significant deviation from the inspiration for the watch.


----------



## Watchamacallit

gerard88t said:


> Look closer, with a quality monitor, at the Rolex this hommage represents. You will see the hands of the old Rolex are not polished but more matte.


Color calibrated monitor here. Care to link to a picture that supports your claim?


----------



## timbo

Watchamacallit said:


> Color calibrated monitor here. Care to link to a picture that supports your claim?


----------



## timbo

Watchamacallit said:


> Color calibrated monitor here. Care to link to a picture that supports your claim?


----------



## SirRolf

errr hard to tell. But the second hand sure is reflecting in the second picture.


----------



## ntr

On the pic, one can see the bracelet... :roll:

Any foreseen pic of the Kingston's one? :-s


----------



## cpotters

My $0.02

Seems like one of those "how many angels on the head of a pin" kind of discussions. I know that the smallest details matter so I won't minimize the importance of it even though its not important to me. 

But remember: Nearly every one of the hommage examples is a 50+ year old watch and are all subject to some oxidation. Even if something looks like satin finish now, its doubtful that the originals were anything other than shiny when new. Since the rest of the watch looks like a shiny new example, I for one would want the hands to match (just like they did originally) and then let them tone down more or less together.

For the rest of you, when your close-up vision starts to crap out you'll be wishing for shiny in the daytime and lume that works at night, anyway.


----------



## sunster

It's been said that the hands have been completed and delivered so I think making such a case now is a bit late and academic.


----------



## tomr

I completely agree with cpotters. To properly compare the hands one would have to see what a 6538 or 6536 looked like as new. Perhaps there are some pictures out there somewhere of such, but all of these pictures show aged watches with their associated patinas. 

The watch with the mentioned reflecting second hand appears to be a silver hand, which was sometimes combined with the gilt hands.

Personally, I can't wait for more detailed pictures of the Kingston illustrating all of the possible combinations of dials, hands and bezels. Hopefully, they will help me decide which combination I will decide upon when it comes time to complete my Phase 2 order.


----------



## timbo

sunster said:


> it's been said that the hands have been completed and delivered so i think making such a case now is a bit late and academic.


+1


----------



## NWP627

cpotters said:


> For the rest of you, when your close-up vision starts to crap out you'll be wishing for shiny in the daytime and lume that works at night, anyway.


:-! Already there, love the shiny and the lume!
N


----------



## ntr

NWP627 said:


> :-! Already there, love the shiny and the lume!
> N


???? :think:

any pics?


----------



## rmasso

*Re: how about making the hands satin gilt....?*



Bill Sohne said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> While driving back to NJ with Marcos we were talking about the readability of the kingston... With the gilt dial and the shinny gilt hands something was amiss... We then realized it was the hands they should be a satin gilt and not the same hi shine as the dial...
> 
> Any thoughts ?
> 
> Best
> 
> Bill sohne.


The best images I can find indicate shiny hands, I can't recall ever seeing hands that were satin in a new watch. I have some photos below from a retailers site and the hands appear shiny, but could have been replaced due to their condition:









The one below looks more original but the hands look oxidized so its hard to tell what they looked like new... but if you look closely they look like they might have been shiny....









Judging by the lume and reflections, these look original and shiny:









these as well look original and shiny:









hands look vintage and shiny:









Also, I have owned two dive watches with glossy dials, one with mineral crystal and one with high dome plastic crystal and I have never had an issue with the legibility of the dial.

If someone has photos of a watch with Satin hands I would like to see that, as I said, I don't ever recall seeing them that way new, but definitley have seen older watches where the hands don't look high gloss anymore due to oxidation etc....

Best Regards,

Richard


----------



## sunster

*Re: how about making the hands satin gilt....?*

Nice photos Richard. Thanks for posting them. Whilst the glossy v matt hands debate is interesting, it really doesn't make any difference to the Kingston as Bill has already had the Kingston Hands delivered.


----------



## rmasso

*Re: how about making the hands satin gilt....?*



sunster said:


> Nice photos Richard. Thanks for posting them. Whilst the glossy v matt hands debate is interesting, it really doesn't make any difference to the Kingston as Bill has already had the Kingston Hands delivered.


Thanks, wish I could say those were mine! In any event, I agree, its more of an intellectual pursuit now that it has been brought up.

Incidentally, I forgot to mention that I looked at the Bond film photos, probably one of the best locations to see a newer version of that watch, and it is very difficult to see if they were shiny or satin.

Best,

Richard


----------



## Rubber Strap

SirRolf said:


> errr hard to tell. But the second hand sure is reflecting in the second picture.





tomr said:


> The watch with the mentioned reflecting second hand appears to be a silver hand, which was sometimes combined with the gilt hands.


If I am not mistaken, that seconds hand is painted white. Personally, I love it and would have been very happy to see it on the Kingston (if I recall correctly, it was discussed during the planning stages, even by Bill).

From what I have read, this painted "meatball" seconds was swapped in during a Rolex service in some cases. Maybe someday Bill will add them to a couple watches that come back for repair - that would be cool.


----------



## Seabadger

> Look closer, with a quality monitor, at the Rolex this hommage represents. You will see the hands of the old Rolex are not polished but more matte.


I don't think I've ever seen one. Whilst I don't have a >50 yr old Sub, I do have a 43 year old 1675, and whilst the hands on that have aged to a matt appearance, they certainly didn't start out that way.

As others have said, this is presumably of academic interest only now as the hands have already been done, and presumably, if anyone feels particularly unhappy with polished hands it wouldn't be impossible to source some with a different finish and have them fitted.


----------



## buckman

Is it January yet? Is it January yet?


----------



## TheDude

So, in case anyone cares, I saw a 6205 the other day at Bob Ridley's. -SUPER- rare vintage sub with gilt unmarked dial.


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

TheDude said:


> So, in case anyone cares, I saw a 6205 the other day at Bob Ridley's. -SUPER- rare vintage sub with gilt unmarked dial.


So how far up in the stratosphere was the price?


----------



## TheDude

It wasn't for sale. Being picked up by the descendant of the original owner.


----------



## Yao

Current status:

* Movements are in route from ETA
* Crowns are finally done (Paid for them last week) but not sure when or how they will ship. That means I am not quite sure when I will have the "final" photos ready.
* The first batch of the Kingston "gold" dials are here but haven't had time to review them yet.
*Case production still on going and still waiting for a delivery date.


----------



## gerard88t

Yao said:


> Current status:
> 
> * Movements are in route from ETA
> * Crowns are finally done (Paid for them last week) but not sure when or how they will ship. That means I am not quite sure when I will have the "final" photos ready.
> * The first batch of the Kingston "gold" dials are here but haven't had time to review them yet.
> *Case production still on going and still waiting for a delivery date.


Okay, so where does that put the expected finish date to now?


----------



## Yao

gerard88t said:


> Okay, so where does that put the expected finish date to now?


Can't tell you until the case manufacturer can give me a delivery date on the case bodies. Until then I will begin prepping the parts and the web site in advance of the cases being delivered.


----------



## sunster

I'd say a good long delay is on the cards :roll:


----------



## timbo

Can't find where this has been discussed before, if at all. Are you assembling the Kingston, Bill, or are they being assembled in Switzerland?


----------



## Yao

timbo said:


> Can't find where this has been discussed before, if at all. Are you assembling the Kingston, Bill, or are they being assembled in Switzerland?


I am going to try to have as many of the watches assembled in Switzerland as I can to make the deliveries more timely. I will still do the regulation and fix any SNAFUs that the Swiss may make here.


----------



## MartinCRC

Bill,
Thanks for the update. Can you clarify the likely process of how plank pre-order customers (second tier in my case) specify the configuration they want? Are you going to make a certain number of each possible configuration or will they effectively be made to order?

Many thanks
Martin


----------



## TheDude

sunster said:


> I'd say a good long delay is on the cards :roll:


It happens man. This is my third MkII, and nothing will serve you as well as a good dose of patience.

Bill keeps us protected from the ugly back-and-forth with his suppliers, but it's not easy. Stuff gets made wrong, or late, or whatever. Making sure the items are up to spec and suitable takes a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

I'll personally be elated if I get my Kingston before 2011. :-!:-!


----------



## buckman

plank plank plank woohoo!


----------



## gerard88t

TheDude said:


> I'll personally be elated if I get my Kingston before 2011. :-!:-!


I would be highly livid if my money already invested was held so long. I'm actually highly expectant MKII delivers soon as possible after Bill's latest posts on December 23. I have already been patient with giving him my money towards the watch way back in March 3, 2009. Bill please don't tell me the expected finish time will go into or past Spring of 2010?


----------



## TheDude

Well, YMMV. If you were an early preorder I suppose you'd get it a lot sooner. I bought near the end of the second plank, so a lot of watches need to go out the door before I get mine.


----------



## handwound

gerard88t said:


> I would be highly livid if my money already invested was held so long. I'm actually highly expectant MKII delivers soon as possible after Bill's latest posts on December 23. I have already been patient with giving him my money towards the watch way back in March 3, 2009. Bill please don't tell me the expected finish time will go into or past Spring of 2010?


I'll be more than happy to pay you for your deposit and take your spot on the list - regardless of projected delivery dates. b-)


----------



## Rob T

gerard88t said:


> I would be highly livid if my money already invested was held so long. I'm actually highly expectant MKII delivers soon as possible after Bill's latest posts on December 23. I have already been patient with giving him my money towards the watch way back in March 3, 2009. Bill please don't tell me the expected finish time will go into or past Spring of 2010?


Are you being serious???

Not that it should ever be about the money, but plank owners are getting a 20% discount from the "General Ordering" price (assuming you are lucky enough to get one in the General Ordering phase), or over 40% for 1st stage and all the included kit. Where else could you "invest" and get 20% p.a. returns? I am sure a line would quickly form if you want to opt out (even with a 20% premium!).

I think its quite remarkable that the project has moved from initial concept to where we are now in less than 12 months. Bet the "Big Boys" take a good deal longer to turn round a project.

Rob (1st Stage Plank, and thrilled with the rate of progress).


----------



## bompi

Of course, one could be slightly disappointed to see the deadline drifting from 4th quarter of 2009 to later.
Nevertheless, I guess what we're interested in is, beside the value in dollars, the overall quality and the care Mr. Yao puts in the making of his watches. And the pleasure we get in following the successive steps of the work in progress.

I expect to be delighted when I receive my Kingston [what will be its serial number ? ;-)] and I'd rather wait and get a _better_ watch.


----------



## Dent99

gerard88t said:


> I would be highly livid if my money already invested was held so long. I'm actually highly expectant MKII delivers soon as possible after Bill's latest posts on December 23. I have already been patient with giving him my money towards the watch way back in March 3, 2009. Bill please don't tell me the expected finish time will go into or past Spring of 2010?


Sure (all things being equal) getting something late is not as good as getting it on time but in this situation what would you prefer?

a) have Bill send you an assortment of unassembled and incomplete number of watch parts right now?
OR
b) have Bill put in time and effort to make sure the watch is as good as can possibly be and _then _send them out?

It takes as long as it takes. If it could be done any faster there wouldn't be a delay! What more can be said?!?


----------



## -thorsten-

Couldn't have said it better!



Rob T said:


> Are you being serious???
> 
> Not that it should ever be about the money, but plank owners are getting a 20% discount from the "General Ordering" price (assuming you are lucky enough to get one in the General Ordering phase), or over 40% for 1st stage and all the included kit. Where else could you "invest" and get 20% p.a. returns? I am sure a line would quickly form if you want to opt out (even with a 20% premium!).
> 
> I think its quite remarkable that the project has moved from initial concept to where we are now in less than 12 months. Bet the "Big Boys" take a good deal longer to turn round a project.
> 
> Rob (1st Stage Plank, and thrilled with the rate of progress).


----------



## Farrell

Rob T said:


> Are you being serious???
> 
> Not that it should ever be about the money, but plank owners are getting a 20% discount from the "General Ordering" price (assuming you are lucky enough to get one in the General Ordering phase), or over 40% for 1st stage and all the included kit. Where else could you "invest" and get 20% p.a. returns? I am sure a line would quickly form if you want to opt out (even with a 20% premium!).
> 
> I think its quite remarkable that the project has moved from initial concept to where we are now in less than 12 months. Bet the "Big Boys" take a good deal longer to turn round a project.
> 
> Rob (1st Stage Plank, and thrilled with the rate of progress).


The money part of it is awesome! Don't say it shouldn't be about money - these're excellent value for money which is a massive massive plus.

Everyone knew what they were getting into here, for me its not an issue and I'm tranche 1 so I've been waiting longer than most. This post is absolutely correct and anyone who is mad about the wait - fair play I'm not a fan either but - it's part of what makes this what it is. It'll come when it comes, ain't no point in makin' big fuss


----------



## gerard88t

I suspect the whole wait is over the *cases* only. It's not about a 2836-2 movement, which by the way, does anyone know if that will be Asian or a real Swiss ETA 2836-2? I looked all over the net and see most 2836-2 movements are in the "replica" Rolex and Omega and such copied watches and a couple company's like Oris and I think Fortis use it. Does anyone have info about the quality and design of this movement and their common prices?


----------



## nullidentitat

It's been a Swiss ETA since the beginning of the project:



> Originally Posted by *Yao*
> _Current status:
> 
> ** Movements are in route from ETA*
> * Crowns are finally done (Paid for them last week) but not sure when or how they will ship. That means I am not quite sure when I will have the "final" photos ready.
> * The first batch of the Kingston "gold" dials are here but haven't had time to review them yet.
> *Case production still on going and still waiting for a delivery date._


I'm also pretty certain Oris and Fortis have never used Asian movements in any of their watches. In*****, on the other hand...



gerard88t said:


> I suspect the whole wait is over the *cases* only. It's not about a 2836-2 movement, which by the way, does anyone know if that will be Asian or a real Swiss ETA 2836-2? I looked all over the net and see most 2836-2 movements are in the "replica" Rolex and Omega and such copied watches and a couple company's like Oris and I think Fortis use it. Does anyone have info about the quality and design of this movement and their common prices?


----------



## handwound

gerard88t said:


> I suspect the whole wait is over the *cases* only. It's not about a 2836-2 movement, which by the way, does anyone know if that will be Asian or a real Swiss ETA 2836-2? I looked all over the net and see most 2836-2 movements are in the "replica" Rolex and Omega and such copied watches and a couple company's like Oris and I think Fortis use it. Does anyone have info about the quality and design of this movement and their common prices?


I can promise you that Oris and Fortis do not use Asian clones of ETA movements, gerard. Not sure where you got that tidbit from...

Anywho, back on topic, I still offer to take up any "plank" buyer's spot at a 10% premium of what was paid to MKII, if you're fed up with the wait.


----------



## obie

_As a note to those just finding the Kingston watch project and are interested in purchasing one.

1. Pre-orders are closed.
2. We are not having a notification email list when the general ordering will open.
3. General ordering will open when preorder watches ship. We do not have a firm date for shipping.
4. Parts kit are not available for purchase for general ordering Kingstons.
5. There will be 100 Kingstons available through general ordering for direct sales, and for our dealers.
6. If you email us, we still can't get you on a standby list or notify you when the Kingston is available. Preorders are closed._

We are sorry that some people missed out on the preorder, or found out about the Kingston just now. Again, there will be 100 Kingstons available through general ordering, and we will make an announcement here on the forum when it opens.


----------



## gonzomantis

I have a couple of questions regarding General Orders.

1. Are the General Order watches all pre-built, or will custom versions be available?

2. Will payment be due in full at the time of order, or due at time of shipment?

I really like the looks of the gilt non-date model!

Thanks in advance.


----------



## gerard88t

trent
I was not meaning to say fortis/oris use asian movements. I referred to the use of a 2836-2 in general, which is a movement I am not finding in many companies I am familiar. I used google after searching all the forums I frequent. I am used to my Lemania's and Rolex 1520-3135 cal. movements. No one has replied to my original post asking about the 2836 qualities and prices.



handwound said:


> I can promise you that Oris and Fortis do not use Asian clones of ETA movements, gerard. Not sure where you got that tidbit from...
> 
> Anywho, back on topic, I still offer to take up any "plank" buyer's spot at a 10% premium of what was paid to MKII, if you're fed up with the wait.


----------



## obie

Responses in red



gonzomantis said:


> I have a couple of questions regarding General Orders.
> 
> 1. Are the General Order watches all pre-built, or will custom versions be available?
> 
> prebuilts in a few versions
> 
> 2. Will payment be due in full at the time of order, or due at time of shipment?
> 
> time of order
> 
> I really like the looks of the gilt non-date model!
> 
> Thanks in advance.


----------



## Dave E

gerard88t said:


> trent
> I was not meaning to say fortis/oris use asian movements. I referred to the use of a 2836-2 in general, which is a movement I am not finding in many companies I am familiar. I used google after searching all the forums I frequent. I am used to my Lemania's and Rolex 1520-3135 cal. movements. No one has replied to my original post asking about the 2836 qualities and prices.


Plenty of companies using the 2836: Fortis, Oris, Hamilton, Damasko. Pretty much the same kind of spec as the 2824, as far as I understand it it's more or less the same as a 2824 with the addition of the day function.


----------



## timbo

gerard88t said:


> trent
> I was not meaning to say fortis/oris use asian movements. I referred to the use of a 2836-2 in general, which is a movement I am not finding in many companies I am familiar. I used google after searching all the forums I frequent. I am used to my Lemania's and Rolex 1520-3135 cal. movements. No one has replied to my original post asking about the 2836 qualities and prices.


IIRC, Another difference between the 2824 and 2836 is that the date changes exactly at midnight in the 2836, rather than 20 minutes past midnight (or so) as is the case with the 2824


----------



## simonsev

timbo said:


> IIRC, Another difference between the 2824 and 2836 is that the date changes exactly at midnight in the 2836, rather than 20 minutes past midnight (or so) as is the case with the 2824


Date change is instantaneous on both and changes wherever you have set the hands, usually of course at 12-00-00.


----------



## timbo

simonsev said:


> Date change is instantaneous on both and changes wherever you have set the hands, usually of course at 12-00-00.


Not on mine 

I am of course talking about when the watch is running, not being set. My Blackwater (2824-2) takes between 15 and 20 minutes after midnight before it 'clicks' over to the next date.


----------



## simonsev

timbo said:


> Not on mine
> 
> I am of course talking about when the watch is running, not being set. My Blackwater (2824-2) takes between 15 and 20 minutes after midnight before it 'clicks' over to the next date.


Hmm, all of my ETA's,and all I have seen, "click" over instantly, with an audible click as per the manufactures specs. My Seiko 6R15's will take 10 mins or so during which time you can progressively see the date change in the window with half of the next days date visible.


----------



## Poseidon-Jim

Awesome new model Bill, I can't wait to see the final production runs in the flesh!

James Bond will have nothing on these models, as he actually could have used a few extra MM width in that Bond Nato strap he has on that Rolex in the film shot you have shown right? lol

Excellent work & well done, the hands are supreme quality as is the dial and the Gold matches all so perfectly indeed.

Cheers,
Jimmy
Poseidon-Jim


----------



## pinjol

I'm sorry guys, but I'm also ready to let go my lot of the Kingston Project. :-(


----------



## Spy

pinjol said:


> I'm sorry guys, but I'm also ready to let go my lot of the Kingston Project. :-(


Can I take your place ?
I don't think there is a reserve list, should one be made Bill ?


----------



## obie

Spy said:


> Can I take your place ?
> I don't think there is a reserve list, should one be made Bill ?


As mentioned before, MKII will not become involved in any members choosing to sell their Kingston preorders to other members. All logistics, etc must be done between those two subjects. The watch would still need to be paid for by the member of the preorder, whom can at anytime change the shipping address to whomever or wherever they would like.


----------



## Artonthewrist

Is the warranty good from preorder buyer to new buyer?


----------



## Jim C.

If anyone on the pre-order list wants to give up their spot, I have funds available and waiting.

-Jim


----------



## JamesJackson

I will also pay the full General ordering price if someone wants to give up their pre-order spot!


----------



## k7lro

Artonthewrist said:


> Is the warranty good from preorder buyer to new buyer?


A better question might be, "is the warranty good for the person that the order is shipped to?" Otherwise, that would nullify someone from giving these as gifts.

The alternative is for the seller to present the watch back to MKII if there's an issue. No one likes being sneaky though.

Having said this, I can count the number of complaints for MKII watches on this forum on one hand.


----------



## buckman

are we there yet? are we there yet?


----------



## timbo

buckman said:


> are we there yet? are we there yet?


 +1!!

I guess I'm not the only one who's compulsively checking this thread.


----------



## bompi

You guess right, I can tell :-d


----------



## cpotters

timbo said:


> +1!!
> 
> I guess i'm not the only one who's compulsively checking this thread.


1+:-!:-!:-!


----------



## kkwpk

Pictures! Give us some pictures!


----------



## k7lro

kkwpk said:


> Pictures! Give us some pictures!


I'd settle for an update. :-x


----------



## delahood

An update would be welcome.


----------



## JonG

delahood said:


> An update would be welcome.


+1............been quietly waiting for an update......:think:


----------



## sunster

JonG said:


> +1............been quietly waiting for an update......:think:


 Me too and an answer to my email. Guess their computer must be down again


----------



## TheDude

Here's an update:

It will take longer than expected

It will take longer than you'd like it to take

You will get fewer updates than you'd like

It will all be worth it :-d


----------



## delahood

I'm sure that's all true but a nice P/R from Investor Relations can do a world of good.


----------



## gerard88t

delahood said:


> I'm sure that's all true but a nice P/R from Investor Relations can do a world of good.


I agree with this sentiment, however as a consumer I am allowed my opinion that customer service is obviously defined differently with Bill.
In his defense he was built up over years of time by a lot of you folk here that have been complacent and acceptant of waiting for your objects from MKII, while they already have your money or a lump sum up front. 
So what I see happening is many MKII enthusiasts have made it clear that a long, long wait for the watches is okay, and this in turn allows MKII to rationalize most all of their customer base will be fine with a long wait. Unfortunately they need to realize many new people have signed up to get their first MKII watch and they are of a different ilk from the current MKII owners. 
At this point in the game I have no choice but to be patient for the piece. It's been almost a year since I invested as a plank owner, and since MKII has the ball in their court now, why force their hand. So far all I know about my expectant watch from MKII themselves is a schematic with two smallish photos of it on a nylon strap. The rest of the watch I saw from kind collectors that went to NYC to see it. To be honest, from the photos, I was not too impressed. But I also understood it was unfinished. Would it be nice to get an update and some new photos with the bracelet I will be getting? Yes, and when the day happens, it's likely the watches are ready to ship out to their owners so what is the point by then? I got in as a plank owner mostly with the thoughts I was investing in it for resale. If it's worth the wait in the end, I'll keep it. 
To end, the long wait with little updates has little meaning to me anymore. I check back here every two weeks or longer now, and look at my email for the final invoice occasionally. I have seen neither of these yet so now it makes sense when owners get so excited when the finished watches are received. In a nut shell the phrase "good things happen for those that wait" is my only expectation now.


----------



## Vegard

The above sentiments are all true as we all perceive this differently. Having played the waiting game with the LRRP my only complaint is that my taste in watches (in general) changed from pre ordering until I got the watch. That said, the watch itself exceeded my expectations. You know what you're getting yourself into here, if the prospect looks good cant afford to wait because there are to many wanting to get on board ( see the Kingston project ) The point is despite long waiting, slow updates, way to few pictures... Who has actually been disappointed by a MKII watch? Not me :-! Hang in there guys!

Vegard


----------



## Rob T

gerard88t said:


> I got in as a plank owner mostly with the thoughts I was investing in it for resale.


Seems to me someone is not getting it. To be a plank owner in this project should be about the passion for the watch and a willingness to contribute to the vision. Not about being able to flip it for a fast buck. Priorities please folks.


----------



## -thorsten-

Rob T said:


> Seems to me someone is not getting it. To be a plank owner in this project should be about the passion for the watch and a willingness to contribute to the vision. Not about being able to flip it for a fast buck. Priorities please folks.


Bang on!


----------



## Farrell

gerard88t said:


> So far all I know about my expectant watch from MKII themselves is a schematic with two smallish photos of it on a nylon strap. The rest of the watch I saw from kind collectors that went to NYC to see it. To be honest, from the photos, I was not too impressed. But I also understood it was unfinished. Would it be nice to get an update and some new photos with the bracelet I will be getting?


I knew this would be a wait and I'm cool with it, we're going from nothing to everything her so the process will take a while.

However, the above statement is pertinent. 2 photos from bill is all we've officially got so far - nothing on the bracelet despite requests as as far as I remember no picture of the date dial form him. This is pretty atrocious really, it take 10 minutes only to take a couple shots (not looking for show room stuff here), resize, upload.


----------



## jhobbs

I seriously doubt Bill wants to throw up some photos that he only took 10 minutes to shoot. That would in no way showcase the Kingston in the way I'm sure he wants it seen. Keep in mind people this is his business and from what I can tell he is wanting to take it to the next level. Sub-par photos is not how you do it.

So, he can take most of a day to take professional quality photos for us or keep working on getting other watches out the door trying to stay on schedule. I'd rather him keep working. Or he could pay a professional photographer to do it which would cost a good chunk..and maybe eat into the next watch project and raise the cost.

I'm as anxious to get updates and see new photos as the rest of us but bottom line is Bill will get the watch out as soon as he can. I'm sure at this stage of the project all of our pre-sale money is spent and he is into his own pocket in the finishing stages. I think everyone was aware of the investment we made up front and the time it would take to get it completed. Based on what all we are getting and the extras thrown in as Plank Owners I'd say the investment will be worth the wait.


----------



## sunster

I don't mind waiting for my Kingston as I know it's going to be something very special. I was expecting it to take a long time anyway especially if the delivery of the LRRPs is anything to go by. The fact I'm still in my honeymoon period with my LRRP probably helps my wait. 
Having said that an update or two would go a long way even if it's a sentence to say a part has arrived. 

I'm sure Bill is very busy working away at the watches and I hope he knows some changes will have to be made if the move to upscale the business, make more expensive higher quality watches and attract new buyers is going to succeed


----------



## bompi

What's worrying me is whether we'll get the precious watch _before_ or _after_ BaselWorld [18th to 25th of March], since we can expect some disturbance (travel to prepare, stay in Schweiz, comeback to the US w/ jetlag and a lot of things to deal with etc.)

Even though I know I ought to be patient, I cannot help being disappointed by the wait getting ever longer, without much news ...

At first I expected the watch to be a nice X-mas present. I wonder whether it will be my nice birthday present (end of August) ;-)

Nevertheless, I've been optimistic enough to apply to the next project (SM300) :-d


----------



## Rob T

gerard88t said:


> Rob,
> Do you have someone you don't know telling you or berating you about where and how you invest your hard earned income? Please don't begin a tradition as this, as it's rude you even had to point it out. Okay? Okay. Otherwise it looks like envy just because I had the good fortune and smarts to get on as early as I did.


I guess where we differ is that I think I am prbably like most folks on this forum and will measure the "returns" on my "investment" in this project in much more than just dollars and cents. Sorry if that offends anyone - that was not my intent.


----------



## clarencek

jhobbs said:


> Keep in mind people this is his business and from what I can tell he is wanting to take it to the next level. Sub-par photos is not how you do it.


Nor is... promising a watch at a certain time-frame, missing that time-frame, and not providing an update or reason isn't really treating your customers well.

If Bill is serious about taking his business to the next level, then in my opinion, he should do a better job at customer relations.

I think everyone on this forum (myself included) is willing to give Bill a pass on issues like this, but that doesn't make it a good / acceptable business practice.


----------



## TheDude

clarencek said:


> Nor is... promising a watch at a certain time-frame, missing that time-frame, and not providing an update or reason isn't really treating your customers well.
> 
> If Bill is serious about taking his business to the next level, then in my opinion, he should do a better job at customer relations.
> 
> I think everyone on this forum (myself included) is willing to give Bill a pass on issues like this, but that doesn't make it a good / acceptable business practice.


This is par for the course for "Internet Builders". If you have purchased other similar small boutique makers' watches, you should know that Bill's product is better, and generally no later than other projects being made by lesser watchmakers.

Raising concerns is one thing, but questioning an established market dynamic is quite another. Yes, you did qualify your comment in the context of Bill "taking his business to the next level", but we didn't buy from someone at the next level. We bought from a small boutique Internet Builder. This should be expected, and if it wasn't - the offended party should accept that they are learning the norms of a market they are new to, and should have the sense to refrain from imposing their expectations on it.

I know one WIS who owns lots of high end watches and military watches. He used to have a MkII, but he sold it and walked away from the brand because of the waiting times. He didn't make a big stink, he simply realized that this kind of experience wasn't something he liked or wanted to subject himself to.


----------



## clarencek

TheDude said:


> I know one WIS who owns lots of high end watches and military watches. He used to have a MkII, but he sold it and walked away from the brand because of the waiting times. He didn't make a big stink, he simply realized that this kind of experience wasn't something he liked or wanted to subject himself to.


My point was not to change any marketing dynamics or impose anything on anyone. My comment was to point out that to get to that "next level" Bill should consider providing more consistent, honest feedback to his customers. I don't see how that's a bad thing...

The WIS doesn't have to make a stink about it, but I think an honest, open comment about his/her experience is valuable to the watch community. It would certainly be valuable to new, potential MKII customers if there was more information about the purchasing experience.


----------



## Cowbiker

I didn't take exactly nine months to get here, regardless of expectations or what was communicated. Things tend to take as long as they tend to take. I feel small batch watch contrators/botique marks, etc. have little to no control of their time tables in general as few of them produce anything themselves, and therefore are at the mercy of third party suppliers whom may not prioritize the needs of a small customer over other conflicting matters. 

I am personally on my 2nd MKII, sold the first as my tastes changed, pleased with value, accuracy and quality of both to the point that I'm awaiting a third MKII.


----------



## Farrell

jhobbs said:


> I seriously doubt Bill wants to throw up some photos that he only took 10 minutes to shoot. That would in no way showcase the Kingston in the way I'm sure he wants it seen. Keep in mind people this is his business and from what I can tell he is wanting to take it to the next level. Sub-par photos is not how you do it.
> 
> So, he can take most of a day to take professional quality photos for us or keep working on getting other watches out the door trying to stay on schedule. I'd rather him keep working. Or he could pay a professional photographer to do it which would cost a good chunk..and maybe eat into the next watch project and raise the cost.
> 
> I'm as anxious to get updates and see new photos as the rest of us but bottom line is Bill will get the watch out as soon as he can. I'm sure at this stage of the project all of our pre-sale money is spent and he is into his own pocket in the finishing stages. I think everyone was aware of the investment we made up front and the time it would take to get it completed. Based on what all we are getting and the extras thrown in as Plank Owners I'd say the investment will be worth the wait.


They're not showcase pictures, they're pre-production progress pictures of a product which will no doubt sell out very quickly. He doesn't mind any other progress pics from anyone else, the disclaimer 'work in progress' would suffice. As pointed out lowlevel of info isn't condusive either.

I think it's unfortunate for anyone who didn't quite realise what they were getting into whith this, but I knew and I fully expected it to go beyond the initial _predictions_ of when the product would arrive. I knew them to be _predictions_ too so I don't know how anyone else did.

And of I know it'll have been worth each penny I've put in. Don't get yourself in a twist becuase it's taking long time, expectation of instant gratification doesn't mix well round these parts, get on with your life, its a watch ffs


----------



## great_dane

gerard88t said:


> Some people live one day at a time and want to get what they can get from that one day. Shoot, I only hope I don't expire before the watch gets to me! :-d


I hope you don't expire, but if you do, would you perhaps put me in your will to inherit your future Kingston watch? I'm dying b/c I didn't get in on the initial project!!! (So keep in mind it could be worse!)

Dane


----------



## delahood

I just asked for a update and everybody who every heard of Dr. Phil is writing "When Bad Things Happen to Good People While Buying a Watch." Over reaction? Yessir. Why don't we just wait.


----------



## MatKid152

clarencek said:


> Nor is... promising a watch at a certain time-frame, missing that time-frame, and not providing an update or reason isn't really treating your customers well.
> 
> If Bill is serious about taking his business to the next level, then in my opinion, he should do a better job at customer relations.
> 
> I think everyone on this forum (myself included) is willing to give Bill a pass on issues like this, but that doesn't make it a good / acceptable business practice.


I think you hit the nail right on the head here. The problem isn't Bill's commitment to building a great watch or his reputation for putting out a stellar final product. We can all agree that he seems to always deliver. However that does not warrant a free pass on customer service. It takes very little time to type a few hundred words a week detailing where the project is at, changes, delays, etc. Even a few point and shoot pics would be more than welcome. The fact is we invested monetarily in a project based on a drawing and an idea, which entitles us to some level of consistent communication, much as angel investors in a start up. I think that has been lost sight of, and it's unfortunate. It is far less expensive to retain a customer than always need to be getting new ones. Whether or not the final product is great is irrelevant, there is no excuse for ignoring paying customers.


----------



## MHe225

Anybody getting too frustrated with the wait? Willing to take over a *1st Stage "Plank-owner" Pre-order* I'll even pay you interest on your downpayment ;-)

On December 10, 2008, I got word that MK II will be offering a final production run of Quad10 watches with anticipated delivery date "early next year". Looks like Bill et al are running about a year behind schedule, but I really don't care. I'm just stoked that my name is on one of those final 10 watches :-!

I ordered my Ducati MH900_evoluzione_ on January 1, 2000; they called it The new bike for the new Millennium and these 2,000 motorcycles were only sold via the internet with a dedicated site opening at the stroke of midnight on 1-1-2000. I finally got mine on October 13, 2001 ....

I guess all I'm saying is that if you really want something, you don't care if you have to wait "a little longer" I do agree, though, that it is nice to receive regular updates / progress reports, an occasional picture, ...

RonB


----------



## cpotters

Firstly, everyone: take a breath. 

It is obvious that some folks - particularly those who are joining the MKII club for the first time -are finding it frustrating to hear about a great watch, order an exciting new limited edition, participate (sometimes actively) in online discussions about it, get totally revved up by the buzz, and then get a little deflated by some delays (unavoidable and out of Bill's control, but totally understandable), and then heighten their frustrations by not getting enough updated information. It is not unreasonable to seek an update. Period.

By the same token, in expressing your frustrations - which you are DEFINITELY entitled to do - it does have a chillingly snowball effect. There may be over a hundred people who regularly read this forum, and maybe 10 that are really getting impatient. The smart thing for Bill to do (with such a tight schedule) would be to press on and just get the job done, and let people wait until they get their product shipped. Maybe an update once a month, but that's it. 

But if those few people make the most noise on the forum (which has happened recently because the wait has gotten longer than hoped) the whole tone gets harsher. Now think about this: If you were the guy building the watches, and you saw this thread recently, what would you be thinking, and what whould you do? I wouldn't be too keen to jump in here, would you? I'd just go back to rushing out the watches, and leave everybody in "the cone of silence"

I don't really want Bill rushing to get product out, and I don't feel the need for an update. If I did, I would PM him, where I might get an answer "eventually". I suspect that when things calm down here, you'll get your update, and it will be good news with regards to finally getting the watches out.

Too bad we don't all live really close together: We could all go out and discuss this over a few drinks, have some laughs. and pity the poor fools that aren't on the 300 list. In the absence of that, do what I do: have that toast at home tonight, and.......Take a breath.


----------



## Thieuster

+1.:-!

Menno


----------



## Cowbiker

justsellbrgs said:


> glad you approve... here are my other choices... all well worth the wait.


+2, a custom every time.:-!:-!


----------



## justsellbrgs

Cowbiker said:


> +2, a custom every time.:-!:-!


...in addition I have more than my Kingston deposit spent on Kingston straps already....

....and Cowbiker has my Kingston strap total expenditure exceeded by at least 40%, if not more... for a watch that has yet to arrive....or seen in person for that matter..

I'll have the Kingston for at least 25 years (I'll be 40 soon)..... then I'll pass it on to my son who is 9 years old..... > I can wait... take your time Bill Yao and make sure the watches meet your standards.


----------



## Cowbiker

justsellbrgs said:


> ...and Cowbiker has my Kingston strap total expenditure exceeded by at least 40%, if not more... for a watch that has yet to arrive....or seen in person for that matter...


b-)Definitely more...LOL shhhhhhhh...NOS Tropics...Mmmmmmm.:-d


----------



## MatKid152

What's everyone getting for straps? Any recommendations on where to get NOS tropics? I've never bought one of them before.


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## Cowbiker

RIOS 1931 20/16 Gator Brown, Phoenix 16MM RAF Clearance Diver Grey, Corvus 18MM RAF, Corvus 20MM Nato, NOS 20MM Tropic Straight End perforated, NOS 20MM Tropic Star Perforated, NOS 20MM Tropic Curved End perforated, NOS 20mm Tropic slotted, RIOS 1931 Juchten 00 brown, Stocker Yale 20MM 'Beefy' (not pictured custom K-Straps custom Frog for a brushed RHD double fold deployant, 20MM MODENA Ridgo ridged black) I've sourced my tropics from Squinky.


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## Docwein

*I been reading the comments lately and find myself ....*

in a daze from all the talk of selling plank orders etc. Maybe I am lucky, I attended the NYC meeting and saw the prototype ( one hell of a watch). I was one of the first to order the Stingray ( I was one of the first to order the Kingson too) and yes it took longer then expected and no Bill did not give weekly updates, but I was patient and rewarded with a great watch. MKII is a small company that makes great watches, so when you buy a watch from a company like this you have to expect delays and yes, you have to faith. Bill has never let me down, nor has he let other customers down. So take a deep breathe, have a glass of whatever and sit back and think about how great the Kingston will look on your wrist.
It is only a matter of time, and time is all that matters.


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## Thieuster

MatKid152 said:


> What's everyone getting for straps? Any recommendations on where to get NOS tropics? I've never bought one of them before.


No to tropics! These are too old (brittle!) and too short to wear. It's a show item. These modern style tropics have an inferior buckle.

Last Sunday, I attended a Dutch Watch Fair and a fellow WIS bought 100 (!) BNIB (yes!) real Tropics for 0.50 eurocents a piece! So, you can imagine that the guy who sells them on eBay makes a healthy profit.

Here's a pic for comparison:

1: so called Italian strap with herring bone pattern: very fine product
2. a real Tropic 
3. no-name brand, fine strap. A little thin
4/5. Tropic-style from a eBay seller (eBay store's name starts with a 'S')

Menno


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## Cowbiker

The outter ones are the modern 'modena's', the LRRP is riding on NOS and has weathered countless miles of swimming laps in chlorinated waters on my 7.25/7/5" wrist w/o issue. Nothing in my collection gets babied, not even my natural hides, they get Sno-Seal'd and swim in the pool, shower, ocean, you name it, if it is going to fail, it will around me.b-)


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## MatKid152

Thieuster said:


> No to tropics! These are too old (brittle!) and too short to wear. It's a show item. These modern style tropics have an inferior buckle.
> 
> Last Sunday, I attended a Dutch Watch Fair and a fellow WIS bought 100 (!) BNIB (yes!) real Tropics for 0.50 eurocents a piece! So, you can imagine that the guy who sells them on eBay makes a healthy profit.
> 
> Here's a pic for comparison:
> 
> 1: so called Italian strap with herring bone pattern: very fine product
> 2. a real Tropic
> 3. no-name brand, fine strap. A little thin
> 4/5. Tropic-style from a eBay seller (eBay store's name starts with a 'S')
> 
> Menno


Are there really a lot of problems with their durability? Where'd you get the Italian herringbone strap? Looks great!


----------



## Thieuster

You can find them here: http://forums.watchnet.com/index.php?t=tree&th=282844&start=0&rid=0 I 
I put an original tropic buckle on this strap; the original tropic buckles are stamped: 'Stainless' or 'Inox' (that's French for Stainless).

Menno


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## Thieuster

About Tropics: there are a bunch of them for sale on the strap/bracelet part of WUS. Check it out: https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=356154

I know the seller personally. He's a great guy to do business with. Highly recommended.

Menno


----------



## obie

Sorry for the very tardy response. I was out on the opposite coast doing some work before hitting the red eye back to the Philly area, into a snow storm.

In regards to the Kingston, please remember that our launch dates were approximate dates which were based upon how long previous watches took from design to delivery. With the Kingston we did several new parts that were not done by us before, or even done by any other watch company sans a few large companies in regards to the dials. I do apologize for the lack of updates, but really we don't feel that posting our supplier issues is actually an update that would interest most members. 

Where we stand now is that we have the dials, case backs, gaskets, bezels, inserts, crowns, tubes, etc but are waiting for the cases. The reason why we are waiting for the cases is that the prototypes were not up to our specifications and had to be re blanked a few times, which takes several weeks to do. Each time they re blanked the cases, some of the imperfections that were there were reduced, but not entirely gone. Bill decided that enough time and effort went into this project with all of the forum members making this watch a reality, that we couldn't accept a case that was less than perfect, and not up to our drawings. 

Bill will be getting online, hopefully shortly to go into a more detailed explanation as he is directly dealing with the suppliers and I don't want to have this explanation be a "I heard it from Bill, who talked to so and so, and then I decided to remember it this way."

As it stands we are looking at an late spring/early summer release of the Kingston pre-orders, if the case manufacture gets it right this time, and we do not need to reschedule with the Swiss assemblers for the project. The reality is that one supplier out of dozens can push a project back to where our projections are off one way or another. 

Bill is hard at work getting rid of the backlog, which does mean less time for him to get onto the forum and keep everyone updated, and he does feel bad. 

As soon as the cases get here, we will get some semi-professional pictures together and get some real life, finalized watches out onto the forum for everyone to see. Finally once we are happy with the cases, the long awaited email to the link form will be sent to the preorder customers to pick their options for the watch, and if appliciapal, the options for the parts kit.


----------



## bompi

Thanks for the update ;-)


----------



## Thieuster

Thanks Obie! It's nice to know that you guys are still aiming for perfection. 

Have a nice weekend!

Menno


----------



## nullidentitat

Thanks!


----------



## JamesJackson

Thanks!


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## giosdad

Thanks for the update


----------



## ntr

Thieuster said:


> Thanks Obie! It's nice to know that you guys are still aiming for perfection.


+1!! :-!

Thanks a lot for this update!!

Have a nice WE.


----------



## NWP627

Thank you and keep up the great work!
N


----------



## Marc7300

Personally I never lost confidence in the final perfection of this project...


----------



## gerard88t

Hi Obie,
Thanks. No offense met here, but to me it appears Bill's needs of perfection not being met is holding up the final outcome of this watch. What if it's never perfect to his drawings? What then? Some things just can't always be made from paper drawings to reality. My concern is I have heard this projection date made in the past. It went from 4th quarter 2009 to first quarter 2010 and now we are told it's another projection into the summer months 2010. I will accept the watch when it is finished, but it will take more than being awed by the Kingston to get me to ever spend my hard earned income on another MKII timepiece, especially another project. The inappropriately long wait has killed the joy of the whole timepiece for me. I just want to collect mine so I can get closure and move on at this point. This is how I feel as a consumer and don't take it personal please. Thank you.



obie said:


> Sorry for the very tardy response. I was out on the opposite coast doing some work before hitting the red eye back to the Philly area, into a snow storm.
> 
> In regards to the Kingston, please remember that our launch dates were approximate dates which were based upon how long previous watches took from design to delivery. With the Kingston we did several new parts that were not done by us before, or even done by any other watch company sans a few large companies in regards to the dials. I do apologize for the lack of updates, but really we don't feel that posting our supplier issues is actually an update that would interest most members.
> 
> Where we stand now is that we have the dials, case backs, gaskets, bezels, inserts, crowns, tubes, etc but are waiting for the cases. The reason why we are waiting for the cases is that the prototypes were not up to our specifications and had to be re blanked a few times, which takes several weeks to do. Each time they re blanked the cases, some of the imperfections that were there were reduced, but not entirely gone. Bill decided that enough time and effort went into this project with all of the forum members making this watch a reality, that we couldn't accept a case that was less than perfect, and not up to our drawings.
> 
> Bill will be getting online, hopefully shortly to go into a more detailed explanation as he is directly dealing with the suppliers and I don't want to have this explanation be a "I heard it from Bill, who talked to so and so, and then I decided to remember it this way."
> 
> As it stands we are looking at an late spring/early summer release of the Kingston pre-orders, if the case manufacture gets it right this time, and we do not need to reschedule with the Swiss assemblers for the project. The reality is that one supplier out of dozens can push a project back to where our projections are off one way or another.
> 
> Bill is hard at work getting rid of the backlog, which does mean less time for him to get onto the forum and keep everyone updated, and he does feel bad.
> 
> As soon as the cases get here, we will get some semi-professional pictures together and get some real life, finalized watches out onto the forum for everyone to see. Finally once we are happy with the cases, the long awaited email to the link form will be sent to the preorder customers to pick their options for the watch, and if appliciapal, the options for the parts kit.


----------



## obie

gerard88t said:


> Hi Obie,
> Thanks. No offense met here, but to me it appears Bill's needs of perfection not being met is holding up the final outcome of this watch. What if it's never perfect to his drawings? What then? Some things just can't always be made from paper drawings to reality. My concern is I have heard this projection date made in the past. It went from 4th quarter 2009 to first quarter 2010 and now we are told it's another projection into the summer months 2010. I will accept the watch when it is finished, but it will take more than being awed by the Kingston to get me to ever spend my hard earned income on another MKII timepiece, especially another project. The inappropriately long wait has killed the joy of the whole timepiece for me. I just want to collect mine so I can get closure and move on at this point. This is how I feel as a consumer and don't take it personal please. Thank you.


It's not Bill's perfectionist attitude here whatsoever, but having the case manufacture do the case as agreed, according to the drawings. It isn't about making it better, but rather making it spec. Bottom line is we can't deliver a product that is not as described to all those that preordered.


----------



## Bill Sohne

*Hmmm... gerard88t ....This is a first for MKII ...*

Hello gerard88t

From MK II site ...

"Project "Kingston" is our latest project and our first collaboration with online collectors."

I have also placed a order for a Kingston. From design ( with end user collaboration ) to a final shipping product takes time. There are also external forces on that MK II can not control directly that can also push out the ship date.

I for one will not compromise on a product or a part . If something was not made to the contract agreed specification then it get rejected. If I was MK II I would not let customer pressure for delivery of the watch threaten the quality / specifications of the watch.

Unlike other MKII watches that MK II design, prototype, accept delivery of first production components ( are done without any public announcements) and then they make announcements of the model and possible take a limited number of orders. That happend much father down the line then what is happening with the Kingston Project.

You can make a point that you were not warned enough about a potential timeline shift ( that can happen in any manufacturing process... from Construction to software development. For that I feel for you. You have the right to purchase from whoever you wish and it sad that this experience turning you off on MK II watches.

I am looking forward to getting mine when its done. I was also at the meeting last fall and saw a prototype and it looks great.. Till then I will just have to wait and I am lucky to have another MK II watch to wear till then.

Good Hunting

Bill Sohne



gerard88t said:


> Hi Obie,
> Thanks. No offense met here, but to me it appears Bill's needs of perfection not being met is holding up the final outcome of this watch. What if it's never perfect to his drawings? What then? Some things just can't always be made from paper drawings to reality. My concern is I have heard this projection date made in the past. It went from 4th quarter 2009 to first quarter 2010 and now we are told it's another projection into the summer months 2010. I will accept the watch when it is finished, but it will take more than being awed by the Kingston to get me to ever spend my hard earned income on another MKII timepiece, especially another project. The inappropriately long wait has killed the joy of the whole timepiece for me. I just want to collect mine so I can get closure and move on at this point. This is how I feel as a consumer and don't take it personal please. Thank you.


----------



## Thieuster

To add my 2c.: 'Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten' is a well-know phrase. I think we can skip the 'price' part and replace it with 'waiting time' 

When the Kingston is in your hands you 'll appriciate the build quality. And that will remain for the years to come. I know that we have been waiting for a long time now, I know we had to invest. And don' forget that people outside the US have to cope with the stronger dollar too! (The price is rising!) But that's all in the game. In the end, we will own a watch that's designed with the owner in mind and with our input incorporated into the design.

I can wait!

Menno


----------



## Farrell

Cheers for the update, looking forward to the next one and pics eventually.

Glad things are being done on a quality rather than time basis. Suppliers :roll:


----------



## sunster

Thanks for the update.

I know you guys don't feel the need for an update regarding supplier issues however personally I'd love to hear updates on these as any update is better than none. Also knowing about supplier issues, case imperfections etc all gives us a clue as to the work and scrutiny you guys are putting into the watch...also gives me a sense of being there as the watch is getting put together. May seem minor to you but for me who doesn't know what it takes to put a watch together, it's really very interesting


----------



## SirRolf

Thieuster said:


> And don' forget that people outside the US have to cope with the stronger dollar too! (The price is rising!)


Haha, I'm in the same boat. I'm hoping to get in on the last few in general ordering, but the pound keeps falling! *sob* I miss the days when you could get over $2 for a pound, I could buy stuff in the States and it all felt so cheep; woot half off! But maybe our currencies will rebound (or the dollar will fall) before Summer. 

-S.R.


----------



## SeikoSickness

gerard88t said:


> Hi Obie,
> Thanks. No offense met here, but to me it appears Bill's needs of perfection not being met is holding up the final outcome of this watch. What if it's never perfect to his drawings? What then? Some things just can't always be made from paper drawings to reality.


I think it was very clear at the onset of this project that it was going to be a while before it was ready. And, if you're a regular visitor to this forum, you should be aware of the fact that watches take a long time from concept (where we were about a year ago) to actual release. This is especially true for projects like the Kingston that don't use catalogue parts and try new things.

As Obie mentioned, it isn't "perfection" that we're waiting for but a watch that meets the agreed on specifications. A case manufacturer isn't going to agree to something it can't actually make.



gerard88t said:


> My concern is I have heard this projection date made in the past. It went from 4th quarter 2009 to first quarter 2010 and now we are told it's another projection into the summer months 2010.


Yeah...and the watch industry is fickle like that. Add to that the fact that MkII, and other small watch companies, with small production runs will get bumped for larger orders and any delivery projections are quite pointless.



gerard88t said:


> I will accept the watch when it is finished, but it will take more than being awed by the Kingston to get me to ever spend my hard earned income on another MKII timepiece, especially another project. The inappropriately long wait has killed the joy of the whole timepiece for me. I just want to collect mine so I can get closure and move on at this point. This is how I feel as a consumer and don't take it personal please. Thank you.


I for one won't settle for a watch that doesn't meet Bill's requirements or the spec I paid for. I guess that this is something that one needs to learn to accept when collecting watches.


----------



## k7lro

SirRolf said:


> Haha, I'm in the same boat. I'm hoping to get in on the last few in general ordering, but the pound keeps falling! *sob* I miss the days when you could get over $2 for a pound, I could buy stuff in the States and it all felt so cheep; woot half off! But maybe our currencies will rebound (or the dollar will fall) before Summer.
> 
> -S.R.


Too funny - there are winners and losers on both sides of the fx coin. Trust me, it impacts me in ways you can't imagine....and I'm not even a gambler.


----------



## TheDude

To the folks yearning for updates, it's not always better to know the gory details. I have a watch on order from another small watchmaker, an OWC MS-9411. FWIW, that one has slipped by a lot too.

He provides pretty regular updates that can be seen here:

http://watchandclockforum.com/viewforum.php?f=147

The information can be painful to read, and there isn't always a lot of movement on the issues.

The takeaway is that knowing isn't always better. The length of the wait doesn't change if you know what's holding it up. If anything, detailed updates are worse because the info puts you in the loop about some obscure problem(s) best left to the watchmaker.

Just accept that it will take as long as it takes. If you really wanted it in the first place, it shouldn't matter.


----------



## TheGanzman

I'm in the vintage guitar business. A VERY busy, in-demand luthier friend of mine has (in my opinion) the PERFECT outgoing voice message; when you call him and get his machine, this is what it says: "I can't come to the phone right now, I'm working on YOUR guitar..."

Perhaps Mssr. Yao could adapt this to HIS outgoing voice message - then a few more people would "get the message"...


----------



## chrisjones3

I have been dealing with Bill since 2004 and he has never let me down. He once moved heaven and earth to get a shipment to me on vacation in Florida, including calling me personally to ensure I could take delivery before I returned to Dubai after my vacation. I have bought 4 new watches from him since then, I have a Kingston on order and I have sent the cheque for the 300. He has exceeded my expectations every time in the quality of what he delivers - it is really exceptional. Maybe it is just me but the wait and paucity of comms do not overly concern me - in fact I quite enjoy it as it slows me down from too many watch purchases!

Cheers

Chris


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## SeikoSickness

baybombers said:


> Another option might be for Mr. Yao to simply manage expectations better when establishing an estimated time of arrival for a product.


That's very easy to do and all the info seekers wouldn't like it very much. But, the old id Software line of "...it'll be out when it's done..." would be fitting!

Seriously, as TheDude pointed out, sometimes it's better if there's less information. This age of "instant gratification through constant communication" isn't all that great. Chill, relax, read about watches, and be patient. The last thing we need is a rushed product just to satisfy some childish desire to "have it now".


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## timbo

Well, Bill could obviously design the next watch without consultation to this forum, get the manufacturing running, then only announce them after he had several thousand watches in inventory. 

But what fun would that be?

This watch was designed with us, and for us. I think if you tally up all of the messages about this watch in this forum, you will find that 99.9% of them are enthusiastically participating in the design of a unique timepiece. Bill asked us if we wanted to go with a gilt dial. We figured it out and said yes. No-one makes these dials anymore - it's a big deal to get one manufactured, and remember, Bill had already committed to a price before this stuff had gotten off the drawing board. You guys want an original style riveted bracelet? No problem, let's design one from scratch. 

The one question he didn't ask was "hey guys, the case isn't up to my specs, but I can ship it anyway if y'all want is sooner".


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## cpotters

timbo said:


> ........you will find that 99.9% of them are enthusiastically participating in the design of a unique timepiece.


Agreed. A quick observation supports that many of the most frustrated folks on the board (not all, perhaps, but many) are ones which have never actually received their 1st MKII. Interesting; people who have seen them, held them and owned them have what must seem Herculean patience with Bill and his process while those that have not may have less.

Which begs the question: what do the MKII owners know about these watches that makes them such loyal customers IN SPITE of a lack of consumer handholding? It speaks volumes to the man and the products he builds, and the vast, vast majority would tell the folks at MKII "Do me a favor, don't change a thing".


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## Thieuster

> Which begs the question: what do the MKII owners know about these watches that makes them such loyal customers IN SPITE of a lack of consumer handholding? It speaks volumes to the man and the products he builds, and the vast, vast majority would tell the folks at MKII "Do me a favor, don't change a thing".


I can not speak for others, but for me it's the breathtaking quality. Every time I open the pelican box, I see a watch that's better built and oozes more quality and refinement than you would expect for a (relatively !) inexpensive watch. Any MKII watch I own, can compete with much more expensive watches.

The messages Bill sends are always about quality: improving etc. So, for us MKII owners, it's a sign that our next MKII watch will even be better than the ones we already own! And that's worth waiting for!

(Mind you, Bill does communicate! Earlier week I received an email about the status of my TR. Bill asked us, the owners, for input about the case back; he had three options and asked us to choose one).

Menno

_EDIT: and to add: Today I received my (original Omega!!!) 633 endpieces for my Speedy. These original Omega parts didn't fit!!!! Too wide!!! I had to file them down until they fit. The bracelet is noisy, clattering etc. Consider this: a premium brand like Omega isn't capable of selling fitting endpieces. That would not happen to Bill's products. Need I say more?

M._


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## JCJM

Greetings.

looking forward to see how it´ll turn out.

J


----------



## Cowbiker

There seems to be a rather broad range of expectations here. 

The value proposition at the price point of MKII's customs are pretty rare, in fact I'm not aware of another batch mfg regulating watches and offering customizations like MKII does. Additionally, I believe MKII is a sole proprietorship with the part time assistance of Warren. Bill is ONE guy, with a backlog of work, IMHO, due to the value proposition his offerings represent and the market's response to it, ie enough orders to create such a backlog. For one person, the range of customization and the personal attention on the bench given to the watch...at these prices...I personally feel I'm already getting a bargain, with or WITHOUT periodic updates.


----------



## Darkman

Just wanted to chime in and voice my support of Bill... turning out good watches consistently is more an art than a science (or at least, it blends substantial elements of each), and the end result is the only measure. I'm anxious to get my hands on the new toy, too, but it's well understood when you sign up for these sort of things that there will be delays and uncertainties... in the end, the watch that arrives will more than make it worth it. And for those who don't like waiting, I'm sure there's a massively long list of folks who'd like to take your place, so hand off to them, get your money out, and move along!


----------



## cpotters

buckman said:


> Why don't some of you think that the rest of us have a voice here? Because you've dealt with this company before and "that's just the way it is here"? Dream on.


1st (as I said in a previous post) a deep breath: ah, I feel better - and I hope you all do , too. Now, the point. There is not a person I've met in this forum who would hope to still all disparate voices, including Bill I suspect, as it was those very voices which constitute this unique experiment in "democracy of design". Still them - no. Quiet them down a little bit in tone and volume, yes. The reasoning follows: if uninterested, now is your chance to move on to another post.

Delays are frustrating. You know it, I know it, fine. But, since we know that Bill is working virtually alone on this pet project of ours, with Warren pitching in with alot of heavy lifting, we KNOW this isn't a large shop, there is no "investor relations" department, no "customer service" line, no secretary answering emails and voicemails and - yes - no video chats. And ABSOLUTELY no drop-ins. So, it seems reasonable enough that you or I should expect the odd update now again: maybe every few weeks or once a month.

Would I like that? Yep. Is that unreasonable - under normal circumstances with a regular small or mid-sized shop to expect that? Not at all, and in fact most of us have come to expect that as a regular paying customer for any product or service these days.

So why so "trusting"? Why am I willing to give MKII a mulligan on this point? Because I a realist, and I know that two guys have approximately 500+ watches in the pipeline for regular delivery (300 Kingstons PLUS vendor order fulfillment PLUS those new Paradives PLUS your SM300 project PLUS the few odd TR1000s plus all of those Sea Fighter and custom LRRP requests...well, you get the idea). So, if all the parts were on hand (they're not) and all of the suppliers were reliable and on-time (they're not) and they weren't such manic perfectionists (they are), then each watch could be assembled, pressure tested, QA'd, packaged and shipped in approximately two days each. By my estimate, that's 1000 man-days assuming everything's a "go".

Almost 3 man-years with no time off for weekends. Now, throw in Basel - a necessary trip - and the odd day with the family, and you could see how this could turn into a really long process - in fact, you would "expect" it. But in spite of all that, they have still committed to give us what we wanted in a timely fashion (seems timely to me, anyway)

Additionally, my bet is there is very little READING of posts going on, forget responding (how much time you you spend in these forums, and do you really think they're doing the same")? When they get around to catching up, there will be some updates, although nothing dramatic or detailed, because (having met) I've noticed they post VERY little unless they have something to say.

So I'm satisfied, but I could see why others would be less patient AND I UNDERSTAND. Why tone the volume down then? After all, everyone has the "right" to vent, and as investors and co-designers that right seems doubly magnified.

Because -besides being on the order sheet I LIKED being part of the design process, and - frankly - if I were the folks at MKII and I READ some of the posts I've seen (not all, but some) I would finish this job and then ONLY take orders privately on projects that I had already completed (all parts options on shelf, and you must choose what I TELL you you can choose from).

I would NEVER give people the opportunity to be so deeply involved in the design and execution process again, because explaining it to 20 people would be exhausting, but to 100 or more, a real PIA. I'm afraid that the Kingston will be the first and LAST opportunity for an educated and enthusiatic group of collectors to participate in a project like this. The good news for you "flippers" out there is that you can virtually count on the value of Kingtons going up in the future. They were rare to begin with, they have a cool story, and - unless I'm way off the mark here - you'll never see another batch quite like serial #s 001-#300.

When I ordered, I was astonished at the propostion because I thought "It can't possibly be worth all the effort that's going to take to get it done". I fear that the folks at MKII may come to that conclusion by the time the last ones are delivered, and that's too bad for us.


----------



## Thieuster

+1; Brilliantly written!

Menno


----------



## Rob T

+2 - Nicely said. Thanks for expressing it better than I could possibly articulate.

Rob.


----------



## MHe225

+3 - and I wished I had learned earlier about this project so that I could also have one of the stage-1 Plank Orders. Anybody unhappy with the wait and willing to give his / her S1-PO up ...... ? Didn't think so.

Heck, I'm waiting more than a year now on my Quad10, have received virtually no updates, haven't been worried and am not upset. Looks like the wait is coming to an end soon - that's a little sad too; the wait has become part of my life ;-)

Okay, I'll admit, I was worried for a few days; checked on the status / progress in August and Warren wasn't aware of my order / couldn't retrieve it. That was sorted quickly and I continued my happy wait :-d

RonB


----------



## kkmark

My priorities are: #1 - the watch has got to be made to exacting standards; #2 - if I get the watch on time, good. If not, not a big deal. 

If there is an update from Bill or Obie, I'd rather not hear about the mini-fires they're putting out. I'd want to hear about progress.

If there is no progress, I don't care to hear about the firefighting details. I'll assume they're working on getting the project back on track.

Monthly or weekly - or even regular - updates have little value to me if they're just to sign in and say "hi, you wouldn't believe what's happened this week".


----------



## sunster

Note Bill has put an update on his blog
http://www.blogmkiiwatches.com/main/


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

If Bill is fighting a chronic sinus infection or something similar, as it sounds from this and other of his postings, he definitely has my sympathy. I am in the same boat, and quite often it is just like having the flu, except that it does not go away on its own, and in fact can keep recurring through several rounds of antibiotics (not to mention THEIR side effects). Additionally, you really aren't 100% even when you are nominally functional.


----------



## handwound

I've stated this in this very thread before, I'll happily take over the spot on the list from anyone who is tired of waiting and a perceived lack of communication. I'll even pay you +10% of your original deposit. *I* am positive the wait will be worth it, but that doesn't mean everyone is.

Trust me, I'm sure Bill would like the Kingstons to be shipping right now more than any of us would. As someone said above, when there are updates to be had, I'm sure we'll have them. Until then, we all sit tight.


----------



## Farrell

*Re: I disagree... This is not a typical product ordering/ offering...*

Not being an arse here, just genuinely concerned (as my monetary situation has taken a small dive of late) but...

Is there any idea when we'll be paying the 2nd chunk of the money, for tranch 1 members at least? Cheers


----------



## sunster

*Re: I disagree... This is not a typical product ordering/ offering...*

I've conceded that we won't hear any more until after Basel. Patience is the key I guess


----------



## sunster

Bill does appear to be posting more regularly on his blog at least.
He says he might be able to get some updates about the Kingston tonight! 
Hope he starts a new page, this huge thread is getting mighty hard to follow ;-)


----------



## iFunky

Sounds promising indeed :-!


----------



## Darkman

can't wait! I check this daily, very excited about the Kingston!


----------



## Yao

sunster said:


> Bill does appear to be posting more regularly on his blog at least.
> He says he might be able to get some updates about the Kingston tonight!
> Hope he starts a new page, this huge thread is getting mighty hard to follow ;-)


I should be back online more regularly beginning this week. I have pictures finally to share with you guys but probably won't have time to do it tonight.

(really sorry about that last bit).


----------



## bompi

That sounds promising ! :-!


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

I'll take any teasers I can get, even if it's the horological equivalent of the glimpse of a delicately turned ankle. :-!










Any chance of a good comparison shot or two between the BG-W9 lume and the C3, in normal lighting (and maybe in the dark too, if practical)? I've seen some wide variation in how C3 turns out in normal lighting, and never really seen the BG-W9 in the flesh.


----------



## Yao

*Pictures of the Kingston with the final bits...*


----------



## Yao

*2nd picture with bracelet*


----------



## Yao

*3rd picture...different angle*


----------



## Yao

*Production update*

* The cases and bracelets are expected to be ready by the end of this month
* Movements are in stock
* Crowns and case tubes are going out to the case manufacturer before I leave for Basel
* We are currently working on the ordering page. I hope to have it up before we leave.
* The matte black date dial you see here is going into production this month
* The glossy gold dial is in stock and I am currently reviewing them
* Hands are in stock
* All inserts are in stock

At the moment my rough estimate is that the watches will begin shipping by the end of June. Please note that I will actually be traveling to Switzerland to visit suppliers during the first full week of June so that may effect the actual date stuff begins to ship.

Let me know if you guys have any other questions or want to see some more pics. I will try to do my best regarding more pics if there is time before Basel. If you are going to Baselworld I will have the sample watches with me.


----------



## Artonthewrist

*Re: 3rd picture...different angle*

I like this one alottttttttt ! !










and would love to see a picture of it in a bracelet plus a few other angles would
be nice what with all the spare time Bill has no problem right:-d

|>|>....emmmmmmm


----------



## simonsev

In a word........*FANTASTIC!!!*.........this could be my exit watch, hmmm now how do I bribe Bill to get one of the general release orders............


----------



## bompi

Splendid ! It's hard to decide whether to choose the gilt dial or the silver one ... Maybe both of them :-d


----------



## siggy

*Re: Production update*



Yao said:


> *
> Let me know if you guys have any other questions or want to see some more pics.


Looks great Bill, how could anyone not want to see more pics 

take it easy,

regards

siggy


----------



## Yao

I just wanted to add something about the long series of posts about the delays in getting info out:


Full disclosure: I deleted a lot of posts - I didn't pay a lot of attention to who posted them I just deleted the ones where they were off-topic or the tone started to become antagonistic. I apologize to those that I "censored" but I think it better to move on. My intention was not to cover up anything (hence the post now about the posts I deleted).
About the pictures: Pictures stay on the Internet a long long long time and many times they are used out of context. That is why I am so careful with pics. I will try to take more "from the workbench" pics but with the delays it didn't seem fair to those waiting for watches (and experiencing very bad delays as well). Those waiting customers could also rightly say "I paid this guy for a watch he could build right now and its late. Rather than building my watch he's posting pics of his next one." In the end I have to balance a number of different people's expectations.
Updates: To be fair yes the wait for updates was excessive. However please understand that I had to clear the backlog of orders in order to make way for the Kingstons that are coming up as well as maintain a more sustainable schedule. If that backlog still existed in say June I'd think you guys would be more upset. The flip side is also that the more I post the more that is asked of me.
Lead times: I do the best that I can with the information that I am given by the suppliers. Many of the high quality suppliers are in high demand in even in a severe recession or they are experiencing their own production issues because of the recession. Managing the suppliers is a lot like herding cats. For example the crowns were supposed to be done before the case samples were completed. The supplier was more than 3 months late because of production issues. I could pressure them to complete the job faster but I have been here before and it doesn't do any good. At best you piss them off and they won't want to work with you or you get what you ask for which is a lot of parts with QC problems. The best you can do is roll with punches and adjust as best you can.
Communication issues and lead times: I am continually working on improving this. Since I never came from a background in manufacturing a lot of it has been trial and error with scheduling. But in an effort to smooth the way in the future I have:
Begun phasing out our parts business.
Beginning about 5 months ago I began scheduling fewer orders per week in order to maintain a more sustainable schedule. The only catch is that you have to work through the 5 months to get to the more sustainable schedule. My point is that you can't turn this kind of operation on a dime.
I re-scheduled a lot of orders 2 weeks ago knowing full well that it would upset customers and lead to cancelations. The only alternative was to reduce quality and just finish the watches more quickly. That's not a trade-off I wanted to make. In a recession I can't afford to lose business but at the same time a reputation takes years to build and only minutes to destroy. So I made the long-term decision and re-scheduled everyone.

The way the economics of any business works is that one is actually incentivised to churn out the products faster, cut corners, make excuses for quality issues... because in the end in the short run the company would make more money. The downside...customers that didn't already hit a tree can't stop their car for 6 miles going more than a mile a minute. I know the delays suck (and my austere existence can testify to that) but delivering what you expect is more important to me. My philosophy is that if I stick to maintaing a high level of quality and build my business carefully I hope to be rewarded in the long run not necessarily next year.
I realize that some of you may think that my obession with quality is overdone. There is a practical side to my paranoia....I normally have to live with the parts that I order for 1, 2, 3 or more years. One lapse in quality control and proper design can lead to years of headache and head banging. A poorly designed or executed product can also make servicing the watch down the road much much harder on the customer.
In the end after more than 7 years in this business I have come to accept that manufacturing watches is like putting out a new car. There are going to be delays and there are going to be problems. If you haven't found any you aren't paying attention. That is also why we will be reducing the number of new models we will be introducing each year.
I hope this helps. I will check in more regularly.


----------



## Dragoon

Very nice work, Bill! It looks like it is progressing quite spectacularly!

Wow, I am impressed with this product!


----------



## messenius

Oh boy the watch looks good. Very impressive work Bill!

Now after seeing these it's going to be even harder to wait - months of sweet agony b-)

PS. When you have time Bill it would be nice to seen gilt dial version with bracelet


----------



## MartinCRC

*Re: Production update*



Yao said:


> * The matte black date dial you see here is going into production this month
> * The glossy gold dial is in stock and I am currently reviewing them
> *


Bill,
Many thanks for the updates. These have certainly re-ignited my enthusiasm for the project. Can you clarify, for me at least, the permutations available regarding gilt/non-glit, date/non-date, matt/glossy dials?

Thank you
Martin


----------



## sunster

*Re: 3rd picture...different angle*

Good pics Bill and thanks for the update.
Any chance of seeing a pic of the gilt dial watch with the red triangle bezel insert and even better on the bracelet.
More angles of this unique bracelet would also be appreciated.


----------



## sfglenrock

*Re: 3rd picture...different angle*



Yao said:


>


I was 100% positive I was going with the gilt dial and without the red triangle but this is absolutely beautiful. It's going to make the decision even tougher. Good thing I have the extra dial, so I can switch if I really want.

Thanks for the pics Bill. As amazing as I expected.


----------



## TheDude

Love it.

It's really hard to tell, but that crown doesn't appear to be the crown depicted in the design diagrams.

Is this an interim crown, or is the angle the cause of my confusion?


----------



## TheDude

TheDude said:


> Love it.
> 
> It's really hard to tell, but that crown doesn't appear to be the crown depicted in the design diagrams.
> 
> Is this an interim crown, or is the angle the cause of my confusion?


Sorry. I just now saw the other two pics. Reading the forum from my phone.

In the first image with the gilt, the crown looks the way I would expect it to. However, in the 2nd and 3rd images it appears that the crown butts up right against the case instead of tapering up to the fat body of the crown. The taper/bubble is also very shallow on the signed end of the crown relative to the drawings/expectations. The crown also doesn't appear big enough.

Is the crown something the suppliers were messing up? If so, is this compromise the result of pressure from all the impatient folks on the forum? This just isn't right.

Before I get skewered for nitpicking, I'll remind everyone that people were informed about an alteration to the bracelet (2mm reduction in width) -and- the folks who didn't approve made their opinions heard. The crown has to be right - it's the defining feature of this watch.

I hope I'm wrong and it's just an issue with the way the watch was photographed. If that's the case, I hope Bill posts convincing images.


----------



## sunster

TheDude said:


> Love it.
> 
> It's really hard to tell, but that crown doesn't appear to be the crown depicted in the design diagrams.
> 
> Is this an interim crown, or is the angle the cause of my confusion?


The crown looks great to me but if this gets Bill to post more pictures, then that'll be great.

It would also be good to see more close ups of the domed crystal which is another distinct feature of this watch


----------



## iFunky

TheDude said:


> The taper/bubble is also very shallow on the signed end of the crown relative to the drawings/expectations.


The size looks fine for me. However i was also surprised by the signed end where i would have expect somethiing more curvy








http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q176/ifunky/dc485815.jpg[/IMG]


----------



## rcarbonetti

Bill, Thanks for the pictures, the kingston is worth the wait for me.


----------



## Thieuster

Oh man! What a beautiful watch!! I'm soooooo glad being a plank owneer. No doubt about the dial: gilt! But I really like the red triangle bezel too. Oh man, what to choose!

Bill, thanks for the pics and the comment. 

Menno


----------



## Dent99

Yao said:


> I just wanted to add something about the long series of posts about the delays in getting info out:
> 
> 
> I realize that some of you may think that my obession with quality is overdone. There is a practical side to my paranoia....I normally have to live with the parts that I order for 1, 2, 3 or more years. One lapse in quality control and proper design can lead to years of headache and head banging. A poorly designed or executed product can also make servicing the watch down the road much much harder on the customer.


If it means getting out a quality product with no defects, I would not call it an obsession. Or if you did want to label an appropriate level of attention to detail as such, well who cares. In my experience, too few companies have a lax attitude when it comes to quality. The last thing I would want to do is have to bug you upon receiving the watch about some issue that need not be present in the first place. |>

Thanks for the pictures. There are some things I would like to see, eg. the gilt dial on bracelet, and other various combinations that will be available.

Something I fell a _need_ to see however is a daylight comparison between the blue and green lumes as I have no experience with the blue and at the moment have only my imagination to go on - essentially I'd like to know what would be the most faithful representation of the original Rolex.

Also, do the pictures feature the final crown? Maybe its the angle but first impression is it looks way too small (just like the one on the temporary crown on the shot you issued months back).

Cheers.


----------



## TheDude

Thank goodness I'm not the only one having issues with the crown.

It may turn out that the size of the watch would have made a "scale" crown so large that it might dig into the wrist, but a change like this (making it small) should have been socialized.


----------



## Yao

The crown pictured is the final crown. Regarding the comments:

* Size: Crown is 8 mm in diameter. To scale it up from the original would have meant a crown about 8.7 mm in diameter. At 8 mm this crown is still very wearable on the bracelet. To make it bigger would have risked making the watch pretty but unwearable. This was approved during the design process.
* Fit: The crown does not fit right up against the case body. There is some stand-off but not as much as the original. Making the stand-off larger would have also risked making the watch less comfortable to wear. Plus I did not see much value in reproducing these kinds of charactersitics. The watch IMHO looks more finished this way. 
* Polish: This is the one part that I agree could have been done better. The crown is slightly over-polished. So the edges are not as sharp as I was expecting. But at the same time gripping the crown is more comfortable than the cheap generic that was on the watch before. The generic crown that was on this before was under-polished. This is also the reason the top "button" of the crown is not as well defined as expected. 
* Lighting of the photo: The photograph lighting makes the crown look a little smaller than it does in real life. For example the black background is reflected in the crown itself which makes it appear less substantial than it really is. I will try to get a better photo of this.
* Comparison to the drawing: Line drawings like the one you are referring to over accentuate the definition of the breaks and divisions, especially in a mirror polished part. The mirror finish by its nature will decrease the amount of definition.

As for the polishing....There is very little value added in sending the crowns back for the polishing because there is no guarantee it will be better. In addition there is about a half-a-dozen other problems a crown can have and over-polishing is the least of them. This is something that I will bring up with them when I see them later this year. This is the first time I have ordered crowns from this company but they make crowns for some of the top-tier brands in the industry and I have ordered other parts from them before. I am more inclined to believe that the issue is more one of specification and style than a defect.


----------



## Yao

TheDude said:


> It may turn out that the size of the watch would have made a "scale" crown so large that it might dig into the wrist, but a change like this (making it small) should have been socialized.


I really hope you guys know me better than that. Once the design is done that is what I stick with, especially when working with non-refundable deposits. I know that isn't necessarily the way other companies have handled the design/production process but I stick with the approved design. This is one of the reasons for the delays....if you stick to what you started with sometimes it takes more time to get what you designed.

Just to re-emphasize this point...the crown is 8 mm which was approved during the design process. It was agreed upon that we wouldn't scale the crown to 8.7 - 9.0 mm.


----------



## TheDude

Yao said:


> I really hope you guys know me better than that. Once the design is done that is what I stick with, especially when working with non-refundable deposits. I know that isn't necessarily the way other companies have handled the design/production process but I stick with the approved design. This is one of the reasons for the delays....if you stick to what you started with sometimes it takes more time to get what you designed.
> 
> Just to re-emphasize this point...the crown is 8 mm which was approved during the design process. It was agreed upon that we wouldn't scale the crown to 8.7 - 9.0 mm.


I do know you better than that, which is why I referenced the way you handled the bracelet design change.

I came late to the Kingston, and not having poured over every word of every post, I probably had a mixture of expectations - set partly by the early posts and the design diagrams.

BTW, that -is- the latest design drawing with the crown being larger. It is in page 29 or 30 of the original thread and was the latest image of reference for anyone who ordered. Most of us probably ordered based on the images and the expectation that the spirit of the 6538 would be captured. I'd say this crown puts us somewhere between the 6536 and 6538.

Don't get me wrong, I still want the watch. I just need to be honest and vent about this. There... It's out of my system. :thanks


----------



## Malyel

Can we get a larger image than 576 x 384 please?


----------



## TheDude

Bill contacted me offlist to discuss. I realize that I have been unfair and that I owe him an apology.

Sorry Bill. I did not intend to cast you or this project in a bad light. I am still eagerly awaiting my Kingston and I hope to buy other wonderful MkII creations in the future. I am an evangelist for your company and I hope to continue in that unofficial capacity.

To everyone else, I told Bill that if any of my messages have been deemed unwarranted, he has every right (as well as my full unsolicited permission) to edit or delete those posts as he sees fit. So, if my comments change or go away do not misinterpret this as an abuse.


----------



## Yao

Malyel said:


> Can we get a larger image than 576 x 384 please?


I will take some Q&D pictures later tonight. They won't be great just to warn you. I am going to take the pictures at my bench.

My suggestion is if some of you unsure about the crown give it a few days, may be a week of looking at it. If enough people feel strongly enough about the crown I can come up with a creative solution.

In any event production is going to proceed with the crown shown in the latest pics.


----------



## Yao

TheDude said:


> Bill contacted me offlist to discuss. I realize that I have been unfair and that I owe him an apology.
> 
> Sorry Bill. I did not intend to cast you or this project in a bad light. I am still eagerly awaiting my Kingston and I hope to buy other wonderful MkII creations in the future. I am an evangelist for your company and I hope to continue in that unofficial capacity.
> 
> To everyone else, I told Bill that if any of my messages have been deemed damaging, he has every right (as well as my full unsolicited permission) to edit or delete those posts as he sees fit. So, if my comments change or go away do not misinterpret this as an abuse.


As I noted in my PM to you your apology is un-necesary. I am not going to delete the threads or modify them. I want to keep this forum as free as possible but let's not burn the place down ;-)


----------



## tomr

Thanks for the pictures, Bill. As a phase 2 member, I have anxiously been awaiting some additional pictures in order to try to determine which configuration I will choose when the time comes to decide. Based upon these first two pictures, it might be a difficult decision process.

As previously mentioned by others, I, too, would like to see more pictures as you can provide them; and, if possible, I'd like to see the gilt dial (no date) with the red triangle bezel, and also with the bracelet. Hopefully, at some point, there will be reference pictures of all the possible combinations available to assist those such as me with our decisions.


----------



## Rob T

Firstly I think the watch looks just great! The guilt dial and hands are stunning and the whole package comes together very nicely indeed. Thanks Bill for bringing this project to life.



Yao said:


> My suggestion is if some of you unsure about the crown give it a few days, may be a week of looking at it. If enough people feel strongly enough about the crown I can come up with a creative solution.


I think this is absolutely right. My initial reaction to the crown was a little mixed, but as I look at it again I think the proportions are just fine. Going any bigger and you may risk it looking like a carbuncle sticking out of the case.

One request - a couple of shots with the different lumes (in normal light) would be great. Pretty sure I know where I stand on the dial/bezel/hands but would like to see the lume so I can consider that option too.

Thanks again Bill!


----------



## TheDude

This is all that comes to mind when I see this photo... :-d


----------



## sschum

When I first saw the new pictures, I too had questions about the crown. Not so much about the size, but more the shape. However, when I looked at the pictures again on my big monitor at work, the shape looks great. Well done on all of these things, Bill. Like many folks, it will be tough to decide on which version to get for the completed project. After months of thinking gilt, I am now (after the new photos) leaning toward the white date dial and hands. We are so fortunate to have choices. ;-)

Scott


----------



## Donald Grant

I was concerned about the crown at first too. But upon closer inspection, the button looks like it is there, but obscured by the reflection of the dark background as Bill said. It looks like a sweet piece and I can't wait to add it to my collection. However, since I own other MKII pieces, I'm not concerned about delays. Keep up the good work Bill!

DG


----------



## Yao

Just let you guys know the pics will have to wait until tomorrow. The only thing I finished so far today is a couple of pre-builts that I mostly finished on Sunday. I spent the rest of the day doing e-mails, admin stuff, and the forum. I got to get to the bench for a few hours.

But on my list will be:

* Better shots of the crown
* I will take some shots of the dials (both lume types) side by side.

The more fancy pics of the the Gilt dial on bracelet, with and without red-triangle inlay will have to wait for the weekend.


----------



## siggy

TheDude said:


> Before I get skewered for nitpicking


Chill Dude ;-) , I don't think you're nitpicking at all and I'm sure your intention, as are the intentions of the vast majority of us is only to be constructive.

As Bill said the lighting in the pics and the angle is not great to see the crown in detail. Until then I will reserve judgement. I don't think the crown needs to be any larger than 8mm as in the drawings, they seem fine.

I don't know what the correct term is for the chunkiness of the bubble side of the crown ( with the logo )/ button side but in the drawings it protrudes quite a way past the straight ridged area. How far in mm does it protrude, don't know, but it looks stick out about 2/3 the width of the straight ridged area. If this is the case on the actual crown then it should be fine and hopefully those first pics are just tricks of the light.

regards

siggy


----------



## GregoryD

I was also concerned about the crown when I first saw it. It looked to me like there was no ridge on the end - like the end was completely smooth and flat. But, on closer inspection it does indeed appear that there is a well defined button there. Overall, the watch looks really stunning, and all the pictures that we'll be getting soon are going to make it that much harder to wait! I'm really looking forward to seeing the gilt dial with the bracelet. 

On a side note, is there any way we can start a new thread for Kingston updates? This thread is almost impossible to follow. I imagine there are some people might not realize updates are coming through, simply because they don't see a new Kingston thread. Just a suggestion.


----------



## sunster

Crown looks good to me. Look forward to your new pictures Bill.


----------



## NOLA1

Man this thing looks great. I really wish I got in at some point. Oh well, i'll keep my eyes peeled for one on the sales corner (although those will likely be very few and far between). Great looking watch Bill.


----------



## abuemily

I think it looks great! I wasn't expecting an exact copy, nor did I want one. The photos look better than I imagined. Now, if anyone can just tell me where to find the strap Bill put on it--been searching the forums and the bay and can't locate one. Anyone have a clue?


----------



## aliasrichmond

abuemily said:


> I think it looks great! I wasn't expecting an exact copy, nor did I want one. The photos look better than I imagined. Now, if anyone can just tell me where to find the strap Bill put on it--been searching the forums and the bay and can't locate one. Anyone have a clue?


They are right here...(I just gave it another bump)
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=2768572#post2768572

or on ebay here:







http://cgi.ebay.com/Real-James-Bond-Strap-Band-18mm-20mm-22mm_W0QQitemZ280437856863QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b661a5f

Rgds
Jim


----------



## abuemily

Many thanks :-!



aliasrichmond said:


> They are right here...(I just gave it another bump)
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=2768572#post2768572
> 
> or on ebay here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Real-James-Bond-Strap-Band-18mm-20mm-22mm_W0QQitemZ280437856863QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b661a5f
> 
> Rgds
> Jim


----------



## bpax

*Re: Pictures of the Kingston with the final bits...*



Yao said:


>


Looks GREAT, Bill! I'm really looking forward to this one!


----------



## es335

Are the hands painted to achieve the gilt effect? Or is that the natural color of the metal?


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

_ Tried to delete double post_


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

I just found the additions to the thread a little earlier today, just now digesting the posts. Wow - fantastic photos!  I am pretty much set on the gilt dial as primary, but the matte dial images also look better than I remember from those early GTG shots.

The crown looks different than I'd pictured, but probably only because I was expecting more of a raised extension above the serrated portion, like you see on the Rolex originals. Not a deal breaker by any means, I am still in love, but I did like the contour better as shown in the drawing TheDude linked.

As for crown size, I just put calipers on my LRRP crown and it's only 6.87mm while sitting on a 42mm case, my guess is that 8mm will be plenty big enough. If I get a chance to measure my Tridente's crown, which is noticeably larger than most, that might be a better comparison point. And Bill is right, reflections on surfaces that curve or fall away from you can make the edge almost disappear (can be a real problem with optical measurement systems), the object then will look smaller than it really is.

Just for fun, these images linked from a TZ vintage Rolex thread show a 5510 and a 6538 that illustrate the crown configuration I meant. Note that the crown is screwed out, I don't think there would ever be that much stand off on the original with it screwed down:





































One thing for us to remember though, changing that crown contour, especially to something non-standard, might add considerable time, cause possible QC complications, and extra costs could elminate Bill's profit margin. So I for one would love the fancier, more "Rolexy" contour, but not at a large cost in quality, schedule, and especially not at a financial cost to Bill - we plank owners are already getting a great bargain.

Anyway, fantastic photos. I'd love to see comparison lume shots, shots of the gilt dial on the bracelet, and possibly at an angle and lighting that shows the gilt up more. That's assuming though that Bill's wife is up to humoring us a bit more!

Another question or two, that may well have been answered and I just forgot somewhere along the way:
Are there going to be any additional dial or hand choices, such as 3-6-9 MilSub/Explorer dials or "pencil" style hands?
Will the gilt and matte dials both be available in a choice of C3 or BG-W9 lumes?
I'm not really requesting any new hand/dial choices,*I'm just curious*.

I will say that the most painful part of the LRRP process for me was deciding on which configuraton to buy, and then to turn away from the others; I was like a kid at the comic book stand with only money for one of them. So giving me too many choices might be a bad thing. :-d


----------



## TheDude

No different hands, no different dials (other than the matte/gilt dial, and silver/gold hands)

I haven't been paying attention to the lume topic, so someone else will have to chime in.


----------



## siggy

JDS (Ohio) said:


> Just for fun, these images linked from a TZ vintage Rolex thread show a 5510 and a 6538 that illustrate the crown configuration I meant. Note that the crown is screwed out, I don't think there would ever be that much stand off on the original with it screwed down:


I don't think that crown is screwed out. Many originals looked like that with their crown screwed down though I would agree that there does seem to be some variation. During the design process this issue was discussed, Bill got as much distance from the case as he could if I understand correctly but he was limited by the design of the crown tube and I agree we don't want to start messing with with that too much, we want this watch to be waterproof. As long as the crown is curvy/chunky enough past the serrated portion then I don't think the distance from the case will be much of a problem.

The Dude is right about the hand/dial variations, no 3-6-9 dial.

When I look at those vintage pics though I think " at least our bezel will not be made of brass" :-d

regards

siggy


----------



## Yao

Just a quick note....In light of recent update issues I just wanted to let you guys know that I probably won't get any pics done until the weekend. The watches aren't moving as quickly as I would like so I have to stay focused on the orders. But here are a few things I have determined and somethings to consider:

Finish of the crowns and spec:


The images you saw of the crown during the design phase are the exact dimensions of the crown. In some cases I lifted the drawing directly from the supplier's technical drawing and scaled it to fit the mock-up. When I re-created the drawing (like the side view of the crown) I still overlaid a scaled up image of the outline of the crown from the original technical drawings to make sure the reproduction was accurate.
Finishing:
As far as I can tell at this point the primary issue is the side of the crown closest to the case body. That bevel that was polished on that side was probably not at a steep enough angle so the middle section where the teeth are are slightly wider than spec.
The total height of the crown is actually slightly larger than spec.
The button side of the crown is within tolerance but transition from the very top of the crown to the sloped area right before the teeth of the crown has a radius to it that was increased by the polishing. This is making the button of the crown less defined visually even though it is to spec.

Options:
You can send the crowns back and try to increase the definition of the bevel closest to the case body but there are potential issues:
Chatter: chucking up this part to a lathe and trying to cut metal off with the teeth there will produce what machinists call chatter (think of running a stick across someone's fence) which will deform the teeth.
This modification is somewhat subjective after the final polishing and you still not get what you were envisioning
The finish on the crowns could be damaged or the functionality of the shaft section of the crown could be impaired during the process of re-work. Essentially the shaft where the stem is screwed into the crown would likely have to be removed before any modification could be done.
Naturally there is also a delay involved.

Order new crowns.
This would be very expensive. If I had used a generic made in Asia ordering new crowns would be no problem but this was not the case. The top-tier supplier I used is expensive.
Until I meet up with the supplier later in the year there is no guarantee if we ordered new crowns that they would be any better. These kinds of details need to be discussed with a supplier, and best done in person because details regarding finish can be very subjective.
Naturally this would also significantly delay the project.

Proceed with the current crowns:
Personally I am okay with the crowns. Ideally they would be closer to what was specified but visually they are still in keeping with the spirit of the original. I know that sounds like a cop out but really I mean that sincerely.
This will naturally keep things moving along and has the least amount of execution related pitfalls
There is an option (albeit I haven't thought it all the way through yet so this not set in stone) later to still order a replacement crown (perhaps an even larger one) but.....
This would have to be done at additional cost to the customer. I am willing to do this at cost (i.e. no profit margin, at a loss if you count the time required to execute the order). Essentially we would amortize the cost of a minimum order over the number of people interested.
I probably wouldn't be in a position to install the crowns but the installation would be relatively easy for a skilled person



Let me know what you guys think. I will provide pictures later in the week but I thought I should provide some perspective in the mean time as to what the options are.


----------



## Yao

es335 said:


> Are the hands painted to achieve the gilt effect? Or is that the natural color of the metal?


The hands are plated in a gold aloy. Base metal is brass. The gold alloy we used is (if memory serves) a less intense yellow popular in Europe (which I chose because that is the same color that Rolex probably would have used).

For the silver hands they are plated in Rhodium and the base metal is brass.


----------



## siggy

Yao said:


> Let me know what you guys think. I will provide pictures later in the week but I thought I should provide some perspective in the mean time as to what the options are.


Thankyou for the thoughts and possible options Bill.

As you said yesterday I think the best thing to do is wait until we can all see better pics showing the crown then was can all make our own decisions. I sure many of our opinions will be different, some will want the watch as soon as possible others will think that the crown is one of the most important parts of the watch and will want to try for one of your alternative solutions.

regards

siggy


----------



## iFunky

Thanks Bill for the clarifications! :-!

As you said it would be probably better to keep and proceed with current crowns and once everybody got their Kingston could do a poll to see who might be interested in a new crown (for extra cost of course).

Seeing the watch in flesh and wearing it might change a lot our perception.

rgds
Yves


----------



## MartinCRC

I too vote to keep things on track and to go with the existing crowns. Bill's suggestion to canvas opinion once better photos are available (or indeed after the watches have been delivered) sounds like a good one. That way we can have our cake and eat it: minimise further delays, avoid messing up the existing crowns and potentially keep those happy for whom the gradient of the ridge on the button on the crown is of the upmost importance!

Martin


----------



## Farrell

I would very very much advise against sending the current crowns in to be re-turned on a lathe, interupted cuts generally are a nightmare.

I'm good with the crowns as they are.


----------



## sunster

I'm for keeping things on track. Whilst the Kingston is a tribute to the Rolex, I never expected a direct copy. Personally I'm more a dial, hands and bezel person and have never really considered the looks of a crown before. I guess many see the large crown as one of the key components in this watch. I'll look forward to seeing more close ups and will no doubt be delighted with the watch when I get it on the wrist.
If Bill says the crowns were made to the specs of the drawings then that's fine by me. There are obviously some technical difficulties to making this perfect and I think waiting to see whether its worth it afterwards is the way to go. As a second plank orderer I'm already conceded to not getting my Kingston til probably the end of the year, I don't want it delayed any further.

All the talk of the crown I think has distracted from the thought of what an amzing watch this looks. The gilt dial looks exquisite, the bezel appears to have a nice coating and the bracelet...wow!


----------



## Galpo

sunster said:


> I'm for keeping things on track. Whilst the Kingston is a tribute to the Rolex, I never expected a direct copy. Personally I'm more a dial, hands and bezel person and have never really considered the looks of a crown before. I guess many see the large crown as one of the key components in this watch. I'll look forward to seeing more close ups and will no doubt be delighted with the watch when I get it on the wrist.
> If Bill says the crowns were made to the specs of the drawings then that's fine by me. There are obviously some technical difficulties to making this perfect and I think waiting to see whether its worth it afterwards is the way to go. As a second plank orderer I'm already conceded to not getting my Kingston til probably the end of the year, I don't want it delayed any further.
> 
> All the talk of the crown I think has distracted from the thought of what an amzing watch this looks. The gilt dial looks exquisite, the bezel appears to have a nice coating and the bracelet...wow!


+++1
If it's not understood, I agree with every word 

As a 1st planker, my only worry about the hands I'll ask - gilt or silver.
The crown (or the watch) should'nt be an exact copy, and if looking
at the crown with objective eyes, as it is now - 
it's a very nice crown - big, hefty and goes well with the case.

If I had any request it was seeing a photo ofthe gilt dial with silver hands,
but I understand that there is a chance I'll have to decide without 
such a photo, and that's OK too.

I think I'm very lucky to be on this project, the Kingston looks
B-e-a-u-tiful, no less. |>


----------



## Thieuster

Galpo said:


> +++1
> If it's not understood, I agree with every word
> 
> As a 1st planker, my only worry about the hands I'll ask - gilt or silver.
> The crown (or the watch) should'nt be an exact copy, and if looking
> at the crown with objective eyes, as it is now -
> it's a very nice crown - big, hefty and goes well with the case.
> 
> If I had any request it was seeing a photo ofthe gilt dial with silver hands,
> but I understand that there is a chance I'll have to decide without
> such a photo, and that's OK too.
> 
> I think I'm very lucky to be on this project, the Kingston looks
> B-e-a-u-tiful, no less. |>


+1. Brilliant watch. Can't wait to wear it.

Menno


----------



## rcarbonetti

Bill, My opinion is please leave the watch, crown everything as was approved by the polls, e-mails etc. I mean we are getting a watch that if it were a Rolex 6538 would cost $10,00 or more. I love the Rolex 6538 but will never own one due to financial reason. I am very happy to your interpretation of one of the most sought after dive watches for collectors and WIS. Thanks again for this rare and great experience.


----------



## rcarbonetti

Bill, Please:

Proceed with the current crowns: 


Personally I am okay with the crowns. Ideally they would be closer to what was specified but visually they are still in keeping with the spirit of the original. I know that sounds like a cop out but really I mean that sincerely.
This will naturally keep things moving along and has the least amount of execution related pitfalls
There is an option (albeit I haven't thought it all the way through yet so this not set in stone) later to still order a replacement crown (perhaps an even larger one) but.....
This would have to be done at additional cost to the customer. I am willing to do this at cost (i.e. no profit margin, at a loss if you count the time required to execute the order). Essentially we would amortize the cost of a minimum order over the number of people interested.
I probably wouldn't be in a position to install the crowns but the installation would be relatively easy for a skilled person


----------



## JDS (Ohio)

Yao said:


> ......
> 
> 
> Proceed with the current crowns:
> Personally I am okay with the crowns. Ideally they would be closer to what was specified but visually they are still in keeping with the spirit of the original. I know that sounds like a cop out but really I mean that sincerely.
> This will naturally keep things moving along and has the least amount of execution related pitfalls
> There is an option (albeit I haven't thought it all the way through yet so this not set in stone) later to still order a replacement crown (perhaps an even larger one) but.....
> This would have to be done at additional cost to the customer. I am willing to do this at cost (i.e. no profit margin, at a loss if you count the time required to execute the order). Essentially we would amortize the cost of a minimum order over the number of people interested.
> I probably wouldn't be in a position to install the crowns but the installation would be relatively easy for a skilled person
> 
> 
> 
> .........


Just my $0.02: moving ahead, with a follow up retrofitted crown if there is enough interest, looks like the way to go. Modifiying the existing crowns would be a bad idea, by the time you got the cut started you'd end up taking off too much. Lord only knows what the end product would look like once all the burrs and tool marks were polished up.

Just to help keep the size issue in perspective, I measured the crown on my 44mm Tridente, whose larger than usual crown was one of its selling points. I measured the Tridente's crown this morning at 7.466 mm, with a Mitutoyo digital micrometer. So if the Kingston crowns are a full 8mm in diameter, they are then larger than this one on the Tridente, which is on a much larger watch to begin with.










Somehow I don't think 8mm will seem that small in person. ;-)

PS: Any excuse to post my favorite blue diver!


----------



## dave43

I think pictures never do Bill's watches justice. I have always been blown away when receiving a MKII after looking at the pics. I trust Bill's judgement. I know he would never compromise on quality.


----------



## GregoryD

Bill, thanks for the update. My inclination would be to go with the current crown. It sounds like there could be a follow-up crown if there is sufficient interest, but I would like to see the Kingston stay on schedule for a summer delivery.


----------



## tomr

Count me as one who is also fine with the crown as it is. I, too, trust Bill's judgement and consistent regard for quality, and I certainly do not want to unnecessarily delay the delivery date any further.

What I would like to hear from Bill, considering all the possible dial, hands and bezel combinations, are his impressions and preferences, if he wishes to share them.


----------



## Dragoon

The current crown is fine with me and lets keep it moving!!
Maybe I will get the optional crown for fun if it develops down the road.

Thanks for all the good work up to this point, Bill!


----------



## giosdad

Dragoon said:


> The current crown is fine with me and lets keep it moving!!
> Maybe I will get the optional crown for fun if it develops down the road.
> 
> Thanks for all the good work up to this point, Bill!


I agree. The current crown is fine. An optional crown could be a nice addition to the parts kit for a later installation.

It might be time to start another thread in future updates.


----------



## Donald Grant

Yao said:


> Just a quick note....In light of recent update issues I just wanted to let you guys know that I probably won't get any pics done until the weekend. The watches aren't moving as quickly as I would like so I have to stay focused on the orders. But here are a few things I have determined and somethings to consider:
> 
> Finish of the crowns and spec:
> 
> 
> The images you saw of the crown during the design phase are the exact dimensions of the crown. In some cases I lifted the drawing directly from the supplier's technical drawing and scaled it to fit the mock-up. When I re-created the drawing (like the side view of the crown) I still overlaid a scaled up image of the outline of the crown from the original technical drawings to make sure the reproduction was accurate.
> Finishing:
> As far as I can tell at this point the primary issue is the side of the crown closest to the case body. That bevel that was polished on that side was probably not at a steep enough angle so the middle section where the teeth are are slightly wider than spec.
> The total height of the crown is actually slightly larger than spec.
> The button side of the crown is within tolerance but transition from the very top of the crown to the sloped area right before the teeth of the crown has a radius to it that was increased by the polishing. This is making the button of the crown less defined visually even though it is to spec.
> 
> Options:
> You can send the crowns back and try to increase the definition of the bevel closest to the case body but there are potential issues:
> Chatter: chucking up this part to a lathe and trying to cut metal off with the teeth there will produce what machinists call chatter (think of running a stick across someone's fence) which will deform the teeth.
> This modification is somewhat subjective after the final polishing and you still not get what you were envisioning
> The finish on the crowns could be damaged or the functionality of the shaft section of the crown could be impaired during the process of re-work. Essentially the shaft where the stem is screwed into the crown would likely have to be removed before any modification could be done.
> Naturally there is also a delay involved.
> 
> Order new crowns.
> This would be very expensive. If I had used a generic made in Asia ordering new crowns would be no problem but this was not the case. The top-tier supplier I used is expensive.
> Until I meet up with the supplier later in the year there is no guarantee if we ordered new crowns that they would be any better. These kinds of details need to be discussed with a supplier, and best done in person because details regarding finish can be very subjective.
> Naturally this would also significantly delay the project.
> 
> Proceed with the current crowns:
> Personally I am okay with the crowns. Ideally they would be closer to what was specified but visually they are still in keeping with the spirit of the original. I know that sounds like a cop out but really I mean that sincerely.
> This will naturally keep things moving along and has the least amount of execution related pitfalls
> There is an option (albeit I haven't thought it all the way through yet so this not set in stone) later to still order a replacement crown (perhaps an even larger one) but.....
> This would have to be done at additional cost to the customer. I am willing to do this at cost (i.e. no profit margin, at a loss if you count the time required to execute the order). Essentially we would amortize the cost of a minimum order over the number of people interested.
> I probably wouldn't be in a position to install the crowns but the installation would be relatively easy for a skilled person
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know what you guys think. I will provide pictures later in the week but I thought I should provide some perspective in the mean time as to what the options are.


I say proceed with the Kingston as you are. It's a great looking watch and tick's of all the boxes. It won't take anything away from the watch because original big crown sub crowns tend to get worn down over time and have less definition. However, I would like to get the replacement crown at a later date.

Just one question, would the replacement crown require replacing the tube as well?

DG


----------



## NWP627

The current crown is fine for me. I'm buying a Yao original not an exact copy of an old Rolex. Keep up the good work Bill!
N


----------



## Quartersawn

I think the current crown captures the spirit just fine and you should roll with it. Any bigger would be clunky looking IMO.


----------



## kkmark

If I wanted a Rolex, I could just buy one. I purchased an MKII interpretation of a classic. I trust Bill on this one. No retrofit needed. Ken


----------



## bompi

AT first, especially on the matte black dial Kingston, I got the impression the crown didn't have the expected shape. But one gets wrong easily with a picture.

It sounds really reasonable to stick to the current crown. When the Kingston is delivered, if ever there's a strong demand for a differently shaped one, there'll be plenty of time to take the right decision, whilst, as we saw previously, another delay might bring some stress ;-)

Regarding the crowns' diameter, it's OK for me.


----------



## bpax

Keep the current crown and the project moving along.


----------



## Riddim Driven

Before you go, please post a pick of the Gilt Dial on the bracelet :thanks I'm no "planksman", but should the stars align, I have a great desire to don "The Kingston".

RD

(PMWF)


----------



## LAPD

Yao said:


> Just let you guys know the pics will have to wait until tomorrow. The only thing I finished so far today is a couple of pre-builts that I mostly finished on Sunday. I spent the rest of the day doing e-mails, admin stuff, and the forum. I got to get to the bench for a few hours.
> 
> But on my list will be:
> 
> * Better shots of the crown
> * I will take some shots of the dials (both lume types) side by side.
> 
> The more fancy pics of the the Gilt dial on bracelet, with and without red-triangle inlay will have to wait for the weekend.


I'm in on the leave the KINGSTON as is bandwagon. I wanted to share my thought with you guys I love all the action on this thread. Special dials, sizes of crowns and delivery times. Its all good to me. I love this thread I pop in and have a look every couple of days as I am in the running for one of these gorgeous "Bill YAO" timepieces, I can see my self passing one of them of to my grand son if he is good and I can picture him saying WOW a Kingston, I thought these watches were a myth, a legend. That's how I think of them now.
I think of how lucky we are to be able to contribute so much to the building and desing of Mr Yao's creations. I mean who gets to talk to the head designer of the Big watch companies and say "Hmm I think I want that case with this dial but have you got another set of hands to choose from I kinda dont like those" What company out there gives you this freedom and who takes your critisims to heart and goes to bed to think about them. 
Anyways
I wanted to help Bill out a bit with the Photo side of things I found this somewhere I think its an amateur photo from Basel World, here you can see the crown much better and its Legen - wait for it - dary.
I hope you watch-aholics see it my way and save your time and money on getting some re-work or another crown.

Like someone else said, I never expected a direct copy.

If Bill says the crowns are good then to me they are.:-!


----------



## TheDude

kkmark said:


> If I wanted a Rolex, I could just buy one. Ken


Look. I will start by saying I don't know you. Maybe you could buy a 6538. Maybe a lot of us could. I take issue though with how casually you state this, as if it's trivial.

The real vintage big crown subs are obscenely expensive. $20,000 minimum - likely $30,000+. It's actually kind of hard to judge since most of them don't get sold - or at least not with any visibility. They cost thousands every 5 years to maintain. A simple original bezel insert will run you $3,500. Many other vital parts cost much much more.

This watch, while decidedly -not- a Rolex copy still must fulfill its promise. Let me first say that I think it will. I trust Bill a lot too. However, please do not marginalize the expectations of the buyer who for obvious reasons is buying this instead of a 6538 or other early run Rolex Submariner.


----------



## kkmark

TheDude said:


> Look. I will start by saying I don't know you. Maybe you could buy a 6538. Maybe a lot of us could. I take issue though with how casually you state this, as if it's trivial.
> 
> The real vintage big crown subs are obscenely expensive. $20,000 minimum - likely $30,000+. They cost thousands every 5 years to maintain. A simple original bezel insert will run you $3,500.
> 
> This watch, while decidedly -not- a Rolex copy still must fulfill its promise. Let me first say that I think it will. I trust Bill a lot too. However, this watch needs to satisfy the buyer who for obvious reasons is buying this instead of a 6538 or other early run Rolex Submariner.


Not able to buy a 6538 - too expensive. Was referring more to "intent to purchase" rather than "ability to purchase". Don't I ever wish I could drop a couple on those vintages...one day maybe but not now.

Hunting for a vintage Rolex is different from looking at how Bill interprets a vintage Rolex. Hoping that there are distinguishing factors that makes the Mk II the Mk II version of the original.


----------



## Donald Grant

LAPD said:


> I'm in on the leave the KINGSTON as is bandwagon. I wanted to share my thought with you guys I love all the action on this thread. Special dials, sizes of crowns and delivery times. Its all good to me. I love this thread I pop in and have a look every couple of days as I am in the running for one of these gorgeous "Bill YAO" timepieces, I can see my self passing one of them of to my grand son if he is good and I can picture him saying WOW a Kingston, I thought these watches were a myth, a legend. That's how I think of them now.
> I think of how lucky we are to be able to contribute so much to the building and desing of Mr Yao's creations. I mean who gets to talk to the head designer of the Big watch companies and say "Hmm I think I want that case with this dial but have you got another set of hands to choose from I kinda dont like those" What company out there gives you this freedom and who takes your critisims to heart and goes to bed to think about them.
> Anyways
> I wanted to help Bill out a bit with the Photo side of things I found this somewhere I think its an amateur photo from Basel World, here you can see the crown much better and its Legen - wait for it - dary.
> I hope you watch-aholics see it my way and save your time and money on getting some re-work or another crown.
> 
> Like someone else said, I never expected a direct copy.
> 
> If Bill says the crowns are good then to me they are.:-!


The crown in that picture looks good. Me likey. Bring it on Bill as is.

DG


----------



## Yao

Donald Grant said:


> The crown in that picture looks good. Me likey. Bring it on Bill as is.
> 
> DG


The crown in that picture was the temporary/inexpensive generic. I will post more pics today of the crown.


----------



## Yao

Donald Grant said:


> I say proceed with the Kingston as you are. It's a great looking watch and tick's of all the boxes. It won't take anything away from the watch because original big crown sub crowns tend to get worn down over time and have less definition. However, I would like to get the replacement crown at a later date.
> 
> Just one question, would the replacement crown require replacing the tube as well?
> 
> DG


No you won't need to replace the tube. The tubes and the crowns are best ordered as a set from one supplier. So I would be going back to the current supplier I am using for a secondary crown if one is required.


----------



## TheDude

Yao said:


> No you won't need to replace the tube. The tubes and the crowns are best ordered as a set from one supplier. So I would be going back to the current supplier I am using for a secondary crown if one is required.


My vintage sub is currently being worked on, and it was advised that I replace the crown and tube. It occurs to me that the tubes and crowns may need to be re-ordered at some point down the road (could be decades from now) for the Kingston.

While "spare kit" owners like me will have an extra crown and tube, it's not unusual to need to replace them during the course of a few decades normal use. We could easily end up needing more.

I think we all know that the watch is going to continue as is, and that's a great thing. I'd simply suggest that if/when a new run of Kingston crowns/tubes ever needs to be done to maintain existing watches, let's consider revisiting this.

Heck, someday MkII may get so big that they could fabricate these items themselves at some point. :-!


----------



## Yao

Here is detail of the crown on the watch. This is the one with the red-triangle and it is the same crown pictured in the images I posted a few days ago....










Here is a picture of the crown by itself. This crown was the one from the one pictured on the gilt dials Kingston I posted a few days ago.










picture of the same crown from the back. Its hard to make it out in this picture but you can see the bevel on the backside more clearly if you look at the top right side. The angle that this picture was shot at makes the button on the top appear smaller than it is in real life.










I apologize that the photos aren't as in focus as they could be but I am using a PAS camera without a support.

But as I said the details are there and when the crown is lit properly you can see them but the slight over-polishing that was done tends to make the edges harder to see and reduces the definition of the crown.


----------



## GregoryD

Hi Bill, 

In a perfect world I would prefer a sharper bevel on the crown (a more defined button, I guess), but I think the crown looks fine, and as you say, it might just be a function of the level of polishing. Plus, I imagine that it will look more sharply-defined in real life. Overall, I am happy with how the crown looks and wouldn't want the watch to be delayed for a new crown. Just my two cents.


----------



## TheDude

Yao said:


> Here is detail of the crown on the watch. This is the one with the red-triangle and it is the same crown pictured in the images I posted a few days ago....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the crown by itself. This crown was the one from the one pictured on the gilt dials Kingston I posted a few days ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> picture of the same crown from the back. Its hard to make it out in this picture but you can see the bevel on the backside more clearly if you look at the top right side. The angle that this picture was shot at makes the button on the top appear smaller than it is in real life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize that the photos aren't as in focus as they could be but I am using a PAS camera without a support.
> 
> But as I said the details are there and when the crown is lit properly you can see them but the slight over-polishing that was done tends to make the edges harder to see and reduces the definition of the crown.


Those shots look exactly the way I'd expect (and want) the crown to look. Glad to see that there's nothing to be concerned with. Looks great!


----------



## yjfang

Yao said:


> Just a quick note....In light of recent update issues I just wanted to let you guys know that I probably won't get any pics done until the weekend. The watches aren't moving as quickly as I would like so I have to stay focused on the orders. But here are a few things I have determined and somethings to consider:
> 
> Finish of the crowns and spec:
> 
> 
> The images you saw of the crown during the design phase are the exact dimensions of the crown. In some cases I lifted the drawing directly from the supplier's technical drawing and scaled it to fit the mock-up. When I re-created the drawing (like the side view of the crown) I still overlaid a scaled up image of the outline of the crown from the original technical drawings to make sure the reproduction was accurate.
> Finishing:
> As far as I can tell at this point the primary issue is the side of the crown closest to the case body. That bevel that was polished on that side was probably not at a steep enough angle so the middle section where the teeth are are slightly wider than spec.
> The total height of the crown is actually slightly larger than spec.
> The button side of the crown is within tolerance but transition from the very top of the crown to the sloped area right before the teeth of the crown has a radius to it that was increased by the polishing. This is making the button of the crown less defined visually even though it is to spec.
> 
> Options:
> You can send the crowns back and try to increase the definition of the bevel closest to the case body but there are potential issues:
> Chatter: chucking up this part to a lathe and trying to cut metal off with the teeth there will produce what machinists call chatter (think of running a stick across someone's fence) which will deform the teeth.
> This modification is somewhat subjective after the final polishing and you still not get what you were envisioning
> The finish on the crowns could be damaged or the functionality of the shaft section of the crown could be impaired during the process of re-work. Essentially the shaft where the stem is screwed into the crown would likely have to be removed before any modification could be done.
> Naturally there is also a delay involved.
> 
> Order new crowns.
> This would be very expensive. If I had used a generic made in Asia ordering new crowns would be no problem but this was not the case. The top-tier supplier I used is expensive.
> Until I meet up with the supplier later in the year there is no guarantee if we ordered new crowns that they would be any better. These kinds of details need to be discussed with a supplier, and best done in person because details regarding finish can be very subjective.
> Naturally this would also significantly delay the project.
> 
> Proceed with the current crowns:
> Personally I am okay with the crowns. Ideally they would be closer to what was specified but visually they are still in keeping with the spirit of the original. I know that sounds like a cop out but really I mean that sincerely.
> This will naturally keep things moving along and has the least amount of execution related pitfalls
> There is an option (albeit I haven't thought it all the way through yet so this not set in stone) later to still order a replacement crown (perhaps an even larger one) but.....
> This would have to be done at additional cost to the customer. I am willing to do this at cost (i.e. no profit margin, at a loss if you count the time required to execute the order). Essentially we would amortize the cost of a minimum order over the number of people interested.
> I probably wouldn't be in a position to install the crowns but the installation would be relatively easy for a skilled person
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know what you guys think. I will provide pictures later in the week but I thought I should provide some perspective in the mean time as to what the options are.


I would prefer that we proceed with the current crown. It looks fine!


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## bompi

Thanks for the pictures and for sharing all these details with us. Considering the amount of work that piles up on your desk, I do appreciate it a lot :thanks


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## sschum

Bill,

The crown looks great as is. I would not opt for a new or different crown. Thanks for posting the new pictures. 

Scott


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## LAPD

Yao said:


> Here is detail of the crown on the watch. This is the one with the red-triangle and it is the same crown pictured in the images I posted a few days ago....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the crown by itself. This crown was the one from the one pictured on the gilt dials Kingston I posted a few days ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> picture of the same crown from the back. Its hard to make it out in this picture but you can see the bevel on the backside more clearly if you look at the top right side. The angle that this picture was shot at makes the button on the top appear smaller than it is in real life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize that the photos aren't as in focus as they could be but I am using a PAS camera without a support.
> 
> But as I said the details are there and when the crown is lit properly you can see them but the slight over-polishing that was done tends to make the edges harder to see and reduces the definition of the crown.


The crown is fine, I like your new pics Bill.
Thanks for showing us the detail and for pointing out that the pic I had was an old one.

Patiently waiting :-!


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## Donald Grant

Yao said:


> Here is detail of the crown on the watch. This is the one with the red-triangle and it is the same crown pictured in the images I posted a few days ago....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the crown by itself. This crown was the one from the one pictured on the gilt dials Kingston I posted a few days ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> picture of the same crown from the back. Its hard to make it out in this picture but you can see the bevel on the backside more clearly if you look at the top right side. The angle that this picture was shot at makes the button on the top appear smaller than it is in real life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize that the photos aren't as in focus as they could be but I am using a PAS camera without a support.
> 
> But as I said the details are there and when the crown is lit properly you can see them but the slight over-polishing that was done tends to make the edges harder to see and reduces the definition of the crown.


The crown looks good. It's a little soft on top because of the polishing, but it's not a deal breaker. Please continue moving forward. It's a great looking watch, very sexy.

DG


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## Darkman

+1 on the good to go.


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## 66Cooper

Wow, I have been away from this site for a week or so. Man, the things you miss!!

Really great to see all the updates and new pix. Just so amazing. Really great to see the bracelet shots as well. Changes the overall look so much. You are making this all REALLY hard to choice what options. If only all my "options" in life were this wonderful

Bill, keep on rockin n rollin. Crown looks great. Cant wait to see more when you get them.


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## giosdad

darkman said:


> +1 on the good to go.


+2


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## Dent99

As one of the few who voiced a small amount of dissapointment regarding the crown (or should I say dissapointment at how I thought the crown _should_ look), I'll add it was only a first impression and the current crown is by no-means a deal-breaker.

Changing/altering the crown in any way isn't a good enough reason to hold up the project, nor does it really need to be done. The current crown works as is.


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## buckman

this is _exactly _what I am ordering-just beautiful :-!
thanks for the update Bill

_







_


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## sunster

buckman said:


> this is _exactly _what I am ordering-just beautiful :-!
> thanks for the update Bill
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


I always thought it'd be the gilt dial for me but this picture is swaying me to the matt dial...hope the gilt dial with the red triangle bezel and bracelet pic reverts me back to my original choice...


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## Thieuster

I've my eyes on a gilt dial and red triangle bezel. Being a plank owner, I'm considering a matte dial and -again- a red triangle bezel. Mind you, considering is the word. Perhaps I will opt for the same configuration as my spare kid. It's the red triangle the gilt version that let this watch stand out.

(can't hardly wait to see new pics!)

Menno

Here's a pic of the Rolex 6538. Glossy dial, gilt and red triangle. Pics from BJSonline.


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## MHe225

Come on, be honest, at least one of you *Prospective Stage 1 Plank Owners* must not like what is shown here ;-)

I'm here to help you out and am prepared to take over your *S1 PO Pre-order*. And to offset your loss -after all, your $$ were locked-up for quite a while- I'll even pay you a generous 10% interest on your down payment.

Okay, it's all joking and good fun but I'm serious about wanting and willing to take over a spot in line. PM me if you're willing to give up yours.

Yes, I'm jealous of you lucky bunch ..... :-(

RonB


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## GregoryD

I always thought I would get the gilt dial, too, but now I'm not so sure. I'd like this watch to be my daily wearer, but for that I would prefer a date, and as far as I know there isn't an option of a gilt dial with a date window. I think both the matte and gilt dial look great. Decisions, decisions...


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## Yao

GregoryD said:


> I always thought I would get the gilt dial, too, but now I'm not so sure. I'd like this watch to be my daily wearer, but for that I would prefer a date, and as far as I know there isn't an option of a gilt dial with a date window. I think both the matte and gilt dial look great. Decisions, decisions...


Actually there is a gilt dial with date window option. :-!


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## messenius

Yao said:


> Actually there is a gilt dial with date window option. :-!


May I presume then that there is also matt dial with out date window as an option???

Now that would be very :-!


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## sunster

Yao said:


> Actually there is a gilt dial with date window option. :-!


Crikey Bill, you aren't making things any easier :-d


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## GregoryD

Oh, wow, that's great news! For some reason I was thinking there were only two dial options. Man, now it's going to be really hard to choose...


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## Yao

messenius said:


> May I presume then that there is also matt dial with out date window as an option???
> 
> Now that would be very :-!


Actually since the Bond theme was the reason for this watch I didn't do a non-date matte black dial. I just did the one date dial you saw in the pictures.


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## 66Cooper

Yeah, this is really starting to get REALLY hard. I got into this because of the Bond connection (have an extensive Bond watch collection) but that red triangle bezel is just SOOO awesome! I guess I'll order both versions but still unsure about the dial. That last picture completely stopped me in my tracks. STUNNING!!!


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## GregoryD

Hi Bill, 

Have you decided yet if only a black-on-white date wheel will be offered, or will there also be a white-on-black date wheel option?

Thanks!


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## Yao

GregoryD said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> Have you decided yet if only a black-on-white date wheel will be offered, or will there also be a white-on-black date wheel option?
> 
> Thanks!


I am almost positive that the black background date wheel will be an option. I have them in stock for the Paradive in any event.


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## GregoryD

That's great, thanks. More options to consider!


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## JDS (Ohio)

Ah, that looks much closer to what I was picturing. Cool!


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## Yao

We got some more pics done last night. I will try to post them in a day or so.


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## nullidentitat

Nice! Can't wait.



Yao said:


> We got some more pics done last night. I will try to post them in a day or so.


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## Yao

By popular demand I am going to lock this thread. I started a new one here.


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