# Selitta SW200 - worst kind of cheating costumers



## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Why there is no specification of the used movement? I bougth my WAB2011.BA0803 (16th july 2011) being convinced that it is powered by ETA 2824-2. The problem was that the watch showed up inaccurate (-27 s per day) and I started to investigate how to regulate the watch without losing warranty. After talking to the Swedish representative of Tag Heuer it turned out that I owned actually WAB2011-0 and not WAB2011. This means that the watch is based on Selitta SW200 and for me...has no value at all. Any adjustment I am not interested in as the watch is a certified copy of itself with an inaccurate Swiss copy of an excellent movement. The really sad part is how a brand as Tag Heuer can use such piece of s..., as Selitta SW200 is, in their watches.:---(

Not a big deal. I will give away this unfortunate watch (or actually a copy of a watch) and buy a real ETA 2824-2 (maybe Tissot Seamaster or Longines Conquest) as I intented from the beginning. But I never expected Tag Heuer to play a such a .. cheap charade..
Don't care the money, just sad.


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## Toronto Pete (Jan 2, 2010)

Wasn't there a thread where one of our more knowledgeable watchmakers stripped down those two movements and compared every part? I think he came to the conclusion that they were functionally identical, and visually almost 1:1, if I remember correctly. 

Sorry to hear about your trouble, though - I know I'd be plenty mad if Seiko told me they'd put a 7S26 where an 8L35 is supposed to go, even if the watch ran perfectly. Part of what you pay for (a big part, for me) is knowing you've got the movement you want under that dial.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:think: This may the first post that I've read like this. The only problem I see is that the SW 200 doesn't
have a track record yet. There're were some bugs a few years back.


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

My Ocean7 LM-7 has the SW200 movement and it has proven to be one of my more accurate autos ;-)

Gratuitous photo (courtesy Kent Parks) after thr re-lume:


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## Little Squid (Oct 23, 2011)

How did Tag cheat you? Are they obligated to reveal the source of their movement? 


What it boils down to is you not accepting Sellita as a legitimate movement maker. But to you ETA is ok. What if a customer completely new to watches discovers his Tag Heuer actually has the guts sourced from some other company called ETA? To him, he bought a Tag, thinking it's TAG thru and thru. He goes on the net to share his disappointment that Tag cheated him. "They just buy off the shelf parts by the thousands, puts it in a fancy case, gets Sharapova to look pretty, and then asks me to pay $2000 for a $100 movement!" 


I know you got a bad copy. That sucks. I'm sure there are some ETA lemons out there, too. Like others, my Calibre 5 movement is working fine (less than +5s day, depending on placement) so Sellita is capable.


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## por44 (Dec 21, 2007)

I believe Tag advertises a Swiss auto movement, which you did get. If you don't see ETA 2824 listed - there is a reasonable chance it could be a SW200. You can't assume much when it comes to advertising - you really need to ask questions. At least it wasn't the want-to-be Claro CL888 _Swiss _movement. On a personal note: I've had no issues with the SW200 movement - they have been as accurate; if not better than many of my 2824's.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

You should have asked if your watch has an ETA movement inside before buying )


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## bmwfreak (Jun 7, 2008)

If I remember correctly, the Sellita SW200 uses 26 jewels, while the 2824 uses 25 jewels. I believe Tag does specify the number of jewels in the movement. This would help identify the movement as either ETA or Sellita. It is unfortunate Tag decided to continue to use the name "Calibre 5" for the Sellita movement. They should have renamed it to a different Calibre number. BTW, Tag has started using Ronda Quartz movements instead of ETA in many of their new watches.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

That would have been too easy. Then again, most salespeople would have said, DUH, 
it's Swiss.


lvt said:


> You should have asked if your watch has an ETA movement inside before buying )


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## Watchyman (Mar 4, 2010)

hamsand said:


> Why there is no specification of the used movement? I bougth my WAB2011.BA0803 (16th july 2011) being convinced that it is powered by ETA 2824-2. The problem was that the watch showed up inaccurate (-27 s per day) and I started to investigate how to regulate the watch without losing warranty. After talking to the Swedish representative of Tag Heuer it turned out that I owned actually WAB2011-0 and not WAB2011. This means that the watch is based on Selitta SW200 and for me...has no value at all. Any adjustment I am not interested in as the watch is a certified copy of itself with an inaccurate Swiss copy of an excellent movement. The really sad part is how a brand as Tag Heuer can use such piece of s..., as Selitta SW200 is, in their watches.:---(
> 
> Not a big deal. I will give away this unfortunate watch (or actually a copy of a watch) and buy a real ETA 2824-2 (maybe Tissot Seamaster or Longines Conquest) as I intented from the beginning. But I never expected Tag Heuer to play a such a .. cheap charade..
> Don't care the money, just sad.


Here's an idea
I'll give you 50 bucks for that Aquaracer of yours, and then you can get this wonderful ETA powered Limited Edition Donald the Duck watch which will help you achieve Nirvana:

Watch Specials from PMWC


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

por44 said:


> I believe Tag advertises a Swiss auto movement, which you did get. If you don't see ETA 2824 listed - there is a reasonable chance it could be a SW200. You can't assume much when it comes to advertising - you really need to ask questions. At least it wasn't the want-to-be Claro CL888 _Swiss _movement. On a personal note: I've had no issues with the SW200 movement - they have been as accurate; if not better than many of my 2824's.





bmwfreak said:


> If I remember correctly, the Sellita SW200 uses 26 jewels, while the 2824 uses 25 jewels. I believe Tag does specify the number of jewels in the movement. This would help identify the movement as either ETA or Sellita. It is unfortunate Tag decided to continue to use the name "Calibre 5" for the Sellita movement. They should have renamed it to a different Calibre number. BTW, Tag has started using Ronda Quartz movements instead of ETA in many of their new watches.


Two very good tips here: I assume when "Swiss movement" is generically said, there's ~80% chance it's the Selitta. The five Selitta SW200s I've had over the years performed and continue to perform exactly like their ETA counterparts. Perception has not quite caught up with reality here, and partially it's justified. All indications are the SW200 is the functional equivalent of the ETA 2824, BUT the 2824 has a track record--who knows whether its success as a reliable movement might depend on something Selitta forgot to copy. It's long-shot that that would happen, but why would you even introduce that variable when the other choice has been time-tested? ETA will enjoy the prestige and reliability factor for quite a few more years which is to an extent justified as in why shouldn't they? They earned it.

Second good tip is the 26 jewel vs. 25 jewel to identify the movement. Unfortunately, in many cases, you won't know the jewels because manufacturers only say "Swiss movement." Of course, when you get the watch you can view the Selitta 26 jewel movement through the display back. Surprise!

What watch companies could have done, given the scarcity of ETAs, was proudly display Selitta in their media, just like they proudly display ETA. But no, they use obfuscation ("Swiss movement") which makes the customer--well, the WIS customer anyway--a little suspicious. Nothing unpredictable there: no company wants to sacrifice commercial advantage.

Unfortunate point is most people don't care and don't know the difference between Selitta and ETA when both are comfortingly called "Swiss Made." These people are the majority buyers of Swiss watches. Watch manufacturers obscure the source of Swiss movement in case there's enough bias to hurt sales.


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## Little Squid (Oct 23, 2011)

Okay I stand corrected. I thought my Carrera Calibre 5 had a Sellita in it. Upon closer examination with magnification I found the ETA logo, near the balance wheel (I think that's what it's called). It's under the 1 o'clock position. Still, there's no reason to smear Sellita if so many others have had success with it.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, any ETA trained watch repair person should be able to service Sellita based watches, right ?


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Right!


lvt said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, any ETA trained watch repair person should be able to service Sellita based watches, right ?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

lvt said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, any ETA trained watch repair person should be able to service Sellita based watches, right ?


That's not really the question because it's been answered. The question is reliability of longevity.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

hamsand said:


> ... This means that the watch is based on Selitta SW200 and for me...has no value at all. Any adjustment I am not interested in as the watch is a certified copy of itself with an inaccurate Swiss copy of an excellent movement. ...
> 
> Not a big deal. I will give away this unfortunate watch (or actually a copy of a watch) and buy a real ETA 2824-2 (maybe Tissot Seamaster or Longines Conquest) as I intented from the beginning. But I never expected Tag Heuer to play a such a .. cheap charade..
> Don't care the money, just sad.


The patents for many of popular ETA movements have expired. The 2824-2 is one of those. And ETA is about to get permission to phase out selling to non-Swatch companies. So expect to see more sw200s in many Swiss watches.

BTW, the Longines Conquest uses the ETA 2892 or 2892-A2 depending on year of manufacture. They and Tissot are Swatch Group companies so they won't have to change movement supplier.

In my experience, the most important aspect of movement making is the precision in assembly and test. This ETA does well. But others do too... indeed, some do it better than ETA.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Eeeb said:


> indeed, some do it better than ETA.


talk about a teasing comment ;-).


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Some of you are totally missing my point. I don't care if Selitta is as accurate as ETA. Actually I don't buy Automatic watches for their performance. I just decided to buy ETA 2824, ETA 2892. I decided to buy the first one as Tag Heuer and the latter as Omega. And yes right I am not an expert just somebody who got fascinated of the technology and want to celebrate a manufacturer by buying their products. And for you who offert me 50 bucks. I assume there is some expression in English just fit as an answer. I am not native so ... apologize for not reacting to your offer. 
But maybe somebody with experience can help me. Is there any ETA 2824-2 powered watch worth to buy. I checked out Hydroconqest but just not right as a replacement for WAB 2110 .

And you suggested to ask salesman for the kind of movement - no meaning. See Exklusiva Klockor på Nätet - KÖP KLOCKOR ONLINE. I sent a mail and they deny usage of Selitta SW200 in Tag Heuer. (I did not but my watch there. The market for real watches is very little in Scandinavia and the knowledge ---ya--- just in direct relation.


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## Perseus (Mar 25, 2010)

If you thought you bought a 2824 movement and received an SW200 I can understand why you would be upset. However, at the end of the day it's your duty to understand EXACTLY what you're buying. The reality is that not many manufacturers outside of the Swatch group are going to be able to provide ETA movements for very much longer. As others have said I doubt that 98% of the watch buyers know anything about the movement in their watch other than thinking Swiss movements are the best. The watch market is changing because of Swatch and if the movement is important to a customer they need to know what they are buying and cannot rely on salespeople or assumptions when making a purchase.


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## Little Squid (Oct 23, 2011)

hamsand said:


> Some of you are totally missing my point. I don't care if Selitta is as accurate as ETA. Actually I don't buy Automatic watches for their performance. I just decided to buy ETA 2824, ETA 2892. I decided to buy the first one as Tag Heuer and the latter as Omega.


That makes no sense. You seem to place a lot of value in the movement, yet you don't care about performance. But the only purpose for the movement is to drive the hands. You don't see it, hear it, feel it....................You must have some personal relationship with ETA and want to support its products, in the form of an attractive, sporty exterior like TAG and Omega.

You can be sure the TAG Carrera Calibre 5 is ETA 2824-2 but it's more dressy.

One question, did you have your Aquaracer opened up to confirm that it's a Sellita?


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## Watchyman (Mar 4, 2010)

hamsand said:


> Some of you are totally missing my point. I don't care if Selitta is as accurate as ETA. Actually I don't buy Automatic watches for their performance. I just decided to buy ETA 2824, ETA 2892. I decided to buy the first one as Tag Heuer and the latter as Omega. And yes right I am not an expert just somebody who got fascinated of the technology and want to celebrate a manufacturer by buying their products. And for you who offert me 50 bucks. I assume there is some expression in English just fit as an answer. I am not native so ... apologize for not reacting to your offer.
> But maybe somebody with experience can help me. Is there any ETA 2824-2 powered watch worth to buy. I checked out Hydroconqest but just not right as a replacement for WAB 2110 .
> 
> And you suggested to ask salesman for the kind of movement - no meaning. See Exklusiva Klockor på Nätet - KÖP KLOCKOR ONLINE. I sent a mail and they deny usage of Selitta SW200 in Tag Heuer. (I did not but my watch there. The market for real watches is very little in Scandinavia and the knowledge ---ya--- just in direct relation.


Did you just come out under a rock or something? apparently you haven't mastered the ever so complex skill of purchasing what one wants.
Next time do some research BEFORE you buy something, specially if you are really SPECIFIC, you'll save a lot time, money and energy.
Don't pull the trigger before you've done your homework (THOROUGHLY).


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Little Squid said:


> That makes no sense. You seem to place a lot of value in the movement, yet you don't care about performance. But the only purpose for the movement is to drive the hands. You don't see it, hear it, feel it....................You must have some personal relationship with ETA and want to support its products, in the form of an attractive, sporty exterior like TAG and Omega.
> 
> You can be sure the TAG Carrera Calibre 5 is ETA 2824-2 but it's more dressy.
> 
> One question, did you have your Aquaracer opened up to confirm that it's a Sellita?


Not necessary

WAB2110 means ETA
WAB2110-0 Selitta

I would like to know before   

But after this it is not imoptant what they use. Tag Heuer will be for me a company using copies.

Just found a copy of Aquaracer with ETA 2824-2 movement. Just fun that a copy can be more valuable than the real one


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## Sodiac (Dec 6, 2008)

For me, I think a Selitta movement is a plus, not a minus. I'm tired of the ubiquitousness of the ETA movements and all the "manufacturers" who buy a case, throw in a 2824 and call it a day. I actively look for watches that are not from the ETA/Swatch stable. The switch from ETA to the Selitta movement is one of the things that has attracted me to the Limes watches recently, for example.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Sodiac said:


> For me, I think a Selitta movement is a plus, not a minus. I'm tired of the ubiquitousness of the ETA movements and all the "manufacturers" who buy a case, throw in a 2824 and call it a day. I actively look for watches that are not from the ETA/Swatch stable. The switch from ETA to the Selitta movement is one of the things that has attracted me to the Limes watches recently, for example.


This is a joke. I hope.


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

TAG has been using Sellita for a couple years now. It's not a secret and shouldn't come as a surprise for anyone who does even the smallest of research on the net.


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## temchik (Oct 25, 2011)

Not only you didn't research what you are buying, you also placed wrong assumptions onto a watch brand and a company who has been producing movements for a long time. You may not know that but a lot of those ETA branded movements that you covet so much were produced by Selitta and branded ETA. It just didn't say Selitta on them then. Now it does.

I just don't see whan can anybody say to make you think your watch is as good as anyone else's. 

The fact that it may be a lemon and runs slow is a warranty case, go and have it regulated under warranty. Or return it.

Unless, of course, you are a troll and we are feeding you


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## temchik (Oct 25, 2011)

I just looked at all your posts, all of them are bashing Selitta and brands using it. You even posted in a thread about an Oris diver gifted to someone by his fiancee! Just... wow...


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Sodiac said:


> For me, I think a Selitta movement is a plus, not a minus. I'm tired of the ubiquitousness of the ETA movements and all the "manufacturers" who buy a case, throw in a 2824 and call it a day.


Those manufacturers would make the same move with Sellita movements too.


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## mikeynd (Dec 11, 2008)

I don't think this guy could tell the difference between the two movements anyways..If they were sitting side by side without any lettering..????


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## bmwfreak (Jun 7, 2008)

hamsand said:


> Just found a copy of Aquaracer with ETA 2824-2 movement. Just fun that a copy can be more valuable than the real one


What makes you think a replica uses an authentic 2824-2? Those movements are being counterfeited also.


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## Jeffy-pie (Oct 2, 2011)

I bought an Invicta with that selitta movement.. I returned the watch, not because of the movement, but the poor design of the bracelet and honestly, because it's overall design wore thin on me too quickly. But the movement was good, it was very accurate. 

I own a new model Tissot Seastar with the ETA 2824-2 that came from the factory with a defective movement. I timed it over 2 days and realized it was running fast by 28-35 secs/day and immediately had it sent in for regulation..Turns out it was defective. So, even ETA isnt perfect. Swatch group allowed one of their flagship models to leave their factory with a defective movement. It kind of blows me away, but there it is..


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

temchik said:


> Not only you didn't research what you are buying, you also placed wrong assumptions onto a watch brand and a company who has been producing movements for a long time. You may not know that but a lot of those ETA branded movements that you covet so much were produced by Selitta and branded ETA. It just didn't say Selitta on them then. Now it does.


This is an important point which I had forgotten, that Selitta didn't just come out of nowhere; as temchik said they had been producing movements for ETA for many years. Obviously ETA gave them the tooling. I can't really imagine how under these circumstances a SW200 would be inferior to ETA2824.

I talked about tradition before, signalling reliability, for the 2824, but after what temchik reminded me of, that Selitta has essentially just changed names on the movement that had previously been ETA2824, I'm thinking there's no difference between them, no more than you would have from factory to factory, shift to shift.

My own experience with SW200s, maybe 5, is that I couldn't distinguish them from 2824. Both commendably stable movements.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

You get blown away easily.


Jeffy-pie said:


> I bought an Invicta with that selitta movement.. I returned the watch, not because of the movement, but the poor design of the bracelet and honestly, because it's overall design wore thin on me too quickly. But the movement was good, it was very accurate.
> 
> I own a new model Tissot Seastar with the ETA 2824-2 that came from the factory with a defective movement. I timed it over 2 days and realized it was running fast by 28-35 secs/day and immediately had it sent in for regulation..Turns out it was defective. So, even ETA isnt perfect. Swatch group allowed one of their flagship models to leave their factory with a defective movement. It kind of blows me away, but there it is..


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## Sodiac (Dec 6, 2008)

lvt said:


> Those manufacturers would make the same move with Sellita movements too.


Yes, but the watches would not have an ETA movement, which is my point. I am anti-ETA and Swatch and I think their plan of limiting movement or ebauche sales to other companies will backfire and is actually one of the best things to happen for watch collectors in a long time. It will bring forth a whole host of alternatives and new movements, as we are already seeing with Selitta and some of the well-funded boutique brands, such as Damasko, which are starting to make their own movements. I, for one, amd glad to see the end of dominance of ETA movements because I think it will, in the end, benefit us, the watch collectors and fanciers.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Sodiac said:


> Yes, but the watches would not have an ETA movement, which is my point. I am anti-ETA and Swatch and I think their plan of limiting movement or ebauche sales to other companies will backfire and is actually one of the best things to happen for watch collectors in a long time. It will bring forth a whole host of alternatives and new movements, as we are already seeing with Selitta and some of the well-funded boutique brands, such as Damasko, which are starting to make their own movements. I, for one, amd glad to see the end of dominance of ETA movements because I think it will, in the end, benefit us, the watch collectors and fanciers.


I think in general you're right and the ETA strategy was and is inevitable. Let's get it out of the way and move on.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Still missing the point!

I am just against the piracy and did not expect Taf Heuer to copy their own watch! No of you wants a Chinese copy but a Swiss one is OK??
Selitta is a copy of ETA. Technically probably as good as the original but...still just a copy.
A drive a Volvo V50, technically a Ford Focus but ... a Volvo is a Volvo.
And yes I have forgotten to make a reasearch. Assumed Tag Heuer to be serious and use real stuff inside their watches. Once again, an assumption and a wrong one 

What I want to say is that piracy should be fought. And now.... if the ETA would accept the SW200 and call it like.. 2824-3 - say an update with additional juvel I would love it ... But they did not .. so it is a copy and a copy is a copy whatever the quality.

Just a sad customer....


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

hamsand said:


> Still missing the point!
> 
> I am just against the piracy and did not expect Taf Heuer to copy their own watch! No of you wants a Chinese copy but a Swiss one is OK??
> Selitta is a copy of ETA. Technically probably as good as the original but...still just a copy.
> ...


keep this in mind: the sw200 is a re-badging of what Selitta had been producing all along, the eta 2824. This has a lineage and is not a copy.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

hamsand said:


> Still missing the point!


No, we get it.

You hate Selitta. You consider the movement to be a cheap, worthless, copy of the ETA 2824-2. You think TAG Heuer cheated you. And you have no clue why TAG Heuer would make two different variations of the same model. One with the fantastic ETA movement, and one with the cheap piece of junk Selitta movement. That about right?

There are just a few things to consider though . . .

You assumed that the watch would contain an ETA 2824 movement. As others have said, you should have done more research before buying the watch. You didn't, and now you're upset because you didn't get a watch with the movement you assumed you would. TAG didn't cheat you. An independent watch-maker can work on both of the movements in the same way because (as has already been pointed out in this topic) they're the same. Watch brands that use the Selitta movement don't think of it as a cheap, poor quality, copy of the ETA movement. If they did, brands such as TAG Heuer wouldn't use the Selitta movement. TAG Heuer is part of the Swatch group. That means that their supply of ETA movements isn't going to dry up anytime soon. They don't see it as making certain Aquaracer models with a copy of a very good movement. They think of them both as essentially the same. There's a good reason for that . . . They _are_ the same.

Let me give a better example. A ton of watch brands make watches that look like the Rolex Submariner. Some are even very good quality homages. None are the real thing . . . One exception though. If you have a watch that looks like a Rolex Submariner, but the letters on the dial say "Tudor," guess what? That's not a copy, it's not an homage either. That's a real Submariner. Someone who doesn't understand the relationship between Rolex and Tudor, they would be confused as to how the two seemingly different brands can both have real Submariners in their product lines. Same situation with Selitta and ETA.

Here's what I still don't get though, if accuracy isn't important at all to you; why are you so concerned with which movement is in your watch? That's like saying religion doesn't matter at all to you, but then you get upset when your date tells you she's Lutheran; and you assumed she'd be a Baptist.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

And...Still missing the point...

Like Rolls-Royce and Bentley back 40 years ago. Just badging but such a difference.
I know that in question of quality there is no difference but....
And the accuracy can not be important to any of you!!! As you watch a forum about an ancient way to measure time as the ETA 2824 actually is. If you decide to buy an automatic watch it is because you want it. Otherwise buy quartz.

So back to the basic. My fault buying a watch in hurry because i liked it and assumed a lot. Would be more fun if a get a genuine Chinese copy. Then I lose money but still have a dream. Now my dream to have a TAG is gone. I can not see their products as genuine. And try to understand that is just a hobby.

And to you with a comment about a rock.... Maybe time to learn a bit respect

Many comments from over the big water. Clever as always.........:-d


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> No, we get it.
> 
> You hate Selitta. You consider the movement to be a cheap, worthless, copy of the ETA 2824-2. You think TAG Heuer cheated you. And you have no clue why TAG Heuer would make two different variations of the same model. One with the fantastic ETA movement, and one with the cheap piece of junk Selitta movement. That about right?
> 
> ...


Check what you find inside the Tudor!
It's it better than Submariner.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Sean779 said:


> keep this in mind: the sw200 is a re-badging of what Selitta had been producing all along, the eta 2824. This has a lineage and is not a copy.


Make you lesson!
There are differences!


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## tpd80 (Jun 28, 2011)

i get what the poster means. hes just going about expressing it wrong.

dont think hes a watch collector, but a movement collector and he wants to own the eta set of movements. hes pissed off at him self for being punked into buying a sw200 when he needed the 2824 and hes taking it out on tag and stellita. like a coke collector will never want a pepsi can even though they are the same thing with a little different paint on it but probably even came from the same can manufacturer.

i think if he said this at the beginning instead of bashing the movement, that has nothing wrong with it, this would have been a much shorter thread.


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## fastward (Aug 6, 2010)

If the majority of people are missing your point, perhaps they aren't the ones with the issue.


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## temchik (Oct 25, 2011)

He's just a troll, guys, ignore. No useful discussion can be had here


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

temchik said:


> He's just a troll, guys, ignore. No useful discussion can be had here


OK! your opinion.

But if I am not? Just show that the biggest threat are not the copies from the East but Switzerland.

And do not call me names, please! Bahave! I have the right to express my opinion.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:think: Seems like you came out a little ahead, you used fiat currency to buy a copy.


hamsand said:


> Still missing the point!
> 
> I am just against the piracy and did not expect Taf Heuer to copy their own watch! No of you wants a Chinese copy but a Swiss one is OK??
> Selitta is a copy of ETA. Technically probably as good as the original but...still just a copy.
> ...


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## bmwfreak (Jun 7, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> TAG Heuer is part of the Swatch group. That means that their supply of ETA movements isn't going to dry up anytime soon.


Tag Heuer is NOT part of the Swatch group. Tag Heuer is owned by LVMH, so their supply of ETA movements is threatened.

I do understand the OP's opinion. I think it's unfortunate Tag Heuer decided to use the same calibre badge. Instead of using Calibre 5, they should have designated a new Calibre for the Sellita movement. Although Tag does not specifically advertise the Calibre 5 as ETA 2824 or Calibre 16 as ETA 7750, etc, it has become common knowledge within the watch community that each specific Calibre uses a specific base movement. Much the same for Omega movements. I'm not agruing that the Sellita is any worse or better than ETA 2824, just that they are different and Tag should have identified this difference by not using Calibre 5 for both. Now Tag does update the model # with any significant production change such as using a suffix "-0", "-1", etc but they are not always transparent in what the updates entail.

I suppose Tag wanted to deplete its parts inventories (dials and rotors) that use "Calibre 5" badging.

Similar discussion with the Calibre 16, newer models are apparently using the Sellita SW500 instead of the ETA 7750.


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## temchik (Oct 25, 2011)

hamsand said:


> OK! your opinion.
> 
> But if I am not? Just show that the biggest threat are not the copies from the East but Switzerland.
> 
> And do not call me names, please! Bahave! I have the right to express my opinion.


So do I.

If your are not just trolling you must have some suggestions that you still have not expressed. What do you want us to do? Occupy Switzerland and demand Sellita stops producing the movements?

We told you already that should you have purchased the watch 2 years earlier it would still have been a Sellita made movement, certified and branded by ETA.

If Tag Heuer felt that the movement was different in any slightest way they would have rebranded their movement Caliber 5a for example to distinguish between the two. When companies use ebauche movements they choose, inspect, modify/adjust and regulate to *their* specs and then stand behind their product. If they don't then we stop buying them. So far there no edivence whatsover that anything changed regarding quality of TH or anyone else


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

hamsand said:


> Check what you find inside the Tudor!
> It's it better than Submariner.


You mean when I first take off the back of the case that says "Rolex" on it and is the very same part in a Rolex Submariner. You mean that one? Right before I find more parts on the inside of an old Tudor that are also used in the version that says "Rolex" on the dial.

Wow, clearly your ignorance of watches is not just confined to TAG Heuer models.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

fastward said:


> If the majority of people are missing your point, perhaps they aren't the ones with the issue.


sorry, I had to laugh at the common sense of that one.


----------



## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

bmwfreak said:


> I'm not agruing that the Sellita is any worse or better than ETA 2824, just that they are different and Tag should have identified this difference by not using Calibre 5 for both. Now Tag does update the model # with any significant production change such as using a suffix "-0", "-1", etc but they are not always transparent in what the updates entail.


That's the thing: No company wants to take the masochistic fall of advertising they're using a perceived slightly inferior movement in the Selitta. That reluctance is financially based, as it should be in capitalism: what happens if I buy it new and sell it used? ETA brings a higher price than Selitta!


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

bmwfreak said:


> Tag Heuer is NOT part of the Swatch group. Tag Heuer is owned by LVMH, so their supply of ETA movements is threatened.


You're right. For some reason got TAG mixed up with Tissot. Apologies for the mistake contained in that one sentence in my previous post. But I stand behind the rest of what I posted. (Most of which the OP decided to completely ignore and focus on Rolex vs. Tudor.)


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## bmwfreak (Jun 7, 2008)

hamsand said:


> Check what you find inside the Tudor!
> It's it better than Submariner.


Tudor does not use a Rolex made calibre movement. That is the major difference. The newer Tudor submariners use ETA movement, not Rolex movement.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Thank you to all of you for information and advice! 
I keep the watch as memory of my ignorance. Should make a research and I did 2004 but for 2011 0804 model. 

Found the watch on discount in a shop. Bought without thinking Later discovered the difference and got angry. .... happens!

As the private message I got from one of you: buy one more but do you research now..

And so I will


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

Monocrom said:


> No, we get it.
> 
> You hate Selitta. You consider the movement to be a cheap, worthless, copy of the ETA 2824-2. You think TAG Heuer cheated you. And you have no clue why TAG Heuer would make two different variations of the same model. One with the fantastic ETA movement, and one with the cheap piece of junk Selitta movement. That about right?
> 
> ...


Good summary, but no point in trying - the guy is angry and probably quite young, who wants to vent his spleen . The lack of research combined with angry words suggests the OP can't tell ignorance from dislike. Pretty much explains a lot of what is going on in the world, not just on a watch forum, if you think about it.


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

hamsand said:


> Thank you to all of you for information and advice!
> I keep the watch as memory of my ignorance. Should make a research and I did 2004 but for 2011 0804 model.
> 
> Found the watch on discount in a shop. Bought without thinking Later discovered the difference and got angry. .... happens!
> ...


Yes, but in your research you will discover that the Sellita is a perfectly fine movement and comparable to the ETA 2824 not least because Sellita has been making ETA 2824s _for_ ETA for ages, and is now selling its own alongside a largely identical movement which manufactured on behalf of ETA, which will then sell it at a higher price. Unless, of course, you do what all young, bad-tempered people do on the internet - and ignore the research findings that don't support your prejudice. I mean, theory.


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

bmwfreak said:


> Tudor does not use a Rolex made calibre movement. That is the major difference. The newer Tudor submariners use ETA movement, not Rolex movement.


Careful - you're dealing with an expert here, who thinks that a decorated 2824 is better than a Rolex movement. We should all be humble in the presence of such internet expertise :-s


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

bmwfreak said:


> Tudor does not use a Rolex made calibre movement. That is the major difference. The newer Tudor submariners use ETA movement, not Rolex movement.


The newer yes - but not the newest!

I can not trace 2834


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

publandlord said:


> Careful - you're dealing with an expert here, who thinks that a decorated 2824 is better than a Rolex movement. We should all be humble in the presence of such internet expertise :-s


No, no it is not better!! Rolex is a Rolex. The only thing better about 2824 is the price. And that everyone can repair it. I got my Le Locle repaired in China on a street!! Still works within 20 s a day.

Do not assume what I think. Check the title of the forum and check what it is in a Tudor!


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

publandlord said:


> Yes, but in your research you will discover that the Sellita is a perfectly fine movement and comparable to the ETA 2824 not least because Sellita has been making ETA 2824s _for_ ETA for ages, and is now selling its own alongside a largely identical movement which manufactured on behalf of ETA, which will then sell it at a higher price. Unless, of course, you do what all young, bad-tempered people do on the internet - and ignore the research findings that don't support your prejudice. I mean, theory.


I give up.... Still don't get my point!

And by the way I am not young! Actually a bit older than ETA 2824


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

If one makes a research on Google, will find that Sellita is not a copy or replica. It is a Swiss company that specialized in assembling ETA movements. I must believe they have those movements pretty mastered, as they were hired by ETA to work with them. I also believe they know what they are doing.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

enricodepaoli said:


> If one makes a research on Google, will find that Sellita is not a copy or replica. It is a Swiss company that specialized in assembling ETA movements. I must believe they have those movements pretty mastered, as they were hired by ETA to work with them. I also believe they know what they are doing.


I wish a had any comment to what you have written. Just don't. I never questioned quality of Selitta. The problem is the right badging. Formality.

The stamp collectors are even more picky.

Like Kia Cee'd and Hyundai i30, Volvo v50 and Ford Focus, Saab 95 and Cadillac XTS - same product different name and differen customer targetting. But CLEAR information about the product.

Somebody told me I am a troll. It just seams that some trolls found a hostel.


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## Little Squid (Oct 23, 2011)

hamsand said:


> I never questioned quality of Selitta. The problem is the right badging. Formality.


What badging are you talking about? TAG never said it was ETA or Selitta. They don't say what they use and what modifications, if any, they do to it. And they don't have to.

Just like Coke doesn't tell you what is their secret formula.


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

Ibtl


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

hamsand said:


> Like Kia Cee'd and Hyundai i30, Volvo v50 and Ford Focus, Saab 95 and Cadillac XTS - same product different name and differen customer targetting. But CLEAR information about the product.
> 
> .


The comparisons above it is known what the product is because one brand owns the other.

TAG has no ownership of Sellita or ETA no there is no reason to make their supliers known.

Having said that, it would be nice to know what is going into the watches but I would trust TAG that the parts are up to their standards.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Wisconsin Proud said:


> The comparisons above it is known what the product is because one brand owns the other.
> 
> TAG has no ownership of Sellita or ETA no there is no reason to make their supliers known.
> 
> Having said that, it would be nice to know what is going into the watches but I would trust TAG that the parts are up to their standards.


You make good points, which also reinforce the value of an in-house movement in avoiding the smoke and mirrors of the ETA/Selitta mish mosh.

Can you imagine buying a $50,000 sports car and not having quick access to way more tech. info than "American Made Engine"?


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Little Squid said:


> What badging are you talking about? TAG never said it was ETA or Selitta. They don't say what they use and what modifications, if any, they do to it. And they don't have to.
> 
> Just like Coke doesn't tell you what is their secret formula.


OK! Let us put is this way. I am about to buy one more watch. I contacted a dealer whose seriosity is unquestionable. Why cheat me on a 1000 Euro watch if I spent already .. OK too much
The new Tag Heuers have ETA-movements inside. Apparently I am not the first one to react. And about ownership - check once more - maybe I have a point somewhere about Kia and Cadillac.

And listen. Volve V70 is avaiable with a couple of Ford-engines in Europe. And Volvo will not happily inform their customers but they do. A Volvo engine should start its live in Skövde and they respect those customers. Ok many others accept a French diesel engine or Ford petrol ones.

My point is that Tag Heuer lost their connection with customers. I buy a Tag not only it is a TAG but because of its movement.

Not the first time I regrete my purchase.

:-d


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## vanilla.coffee (Feb 27, 2011)

I bought a brand new Carrera at the weekend just past. 
Been after this one for a while.
Mine is a Cal 5 with the new Selitta 26 Jewel movement and thus far has gained just +4 secs since Saturday. Not that the accuracy concerns me, all I know is TAG Heuer would not choose an inferior movement and risk its increasingly growing good reputation. So I trust that all is well.

I have several watches with ETA 2824's inside and the first thing I have noticed is when I place my new Carrera to my ear, the 'tick tock' is much softer. Not as harsh sounding. 
Also noticeable immediately is the smooth sweep of the seconds hand. Smoother than the ETA which now noticeably seems to have a bit of a judder in comparison to the Selitta. 
Next, the date wheel. Again, much smoother and less noisy when it clicks over to the next day when spinning the crown. The 2824 always feels a little notchy in my opinion when changing the date. 
So three things so far that for me have enhanced my enjoyment of this new Carrera. A beautiful watch, classy - understated and with what appears to be an excellent very high quality movement inside. 
Better in my opinion than if I had been unlucky enough to get yet another ETA 2824.










Best wishes to all.

VC


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## lefe (Nov 21, 2011)

I checked my recently bought Carrera with a calibre 5. Oeps&#8230; it has a Selitta SW200 in it&#8230; Now I have to put the watch on eBay, and because I'm an honest guy I will inform the potential buyer "beware: SW200 inside!"

Just kidding and to put things in perspective:
It's a nicely finished and fully technical and functional equivalent of the ETA 2824-2 from a respected Swiss movement manufacturer (I know you are calling this a 'clone' ;-).
According to the technical documentation of Selitta this is a premium (top) grade movement because of the use of Incabloc instead of Novodiac.
Check your watch and then:

Novodiac versus Incabloc with pictures Regular Incabloc and THE NEW "Novodiac" by Incabloc Shock Systems Parts for ETA & FHH ST 96, 969N, 969-4N
Technical documentation of the SW200, page 11 - shock absorber http://www.sellita.ch/images/stories/documents/SW200_DOC_FULL_v.16.04.10.pdf
If yours is xx seconds off, these things can happen and let it fixed. Mine is +2 seconds off per day. Relax and enjoy your watch. And you get an extra jewel in the movement as a bonus  (but to be honest I don't know where they put that one&#8230

@ vanilla.coffee
I have the same watch but with the silver dial and brown leather strap, I'm very happy with it. Indeed very classy that I like.


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

lefe said:


> I checked my recently bought Carrera with a calibre 5. Oeps&#8230; it has a Selitta SW200 in it&#8230; Now I have to put the watch on eBay, and because I'm an honest guy I will inform the potential buyer "beware: SW200 inside!"


LMAO! You had me going!!

Welcome to the madness!


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## tpd80 (Jun 28, 2011)

hamsand said:


> I wish a had any comment to what you have written. Just don't. I never questioned quality of Selitta. The problem is the right badging. Formality.


No the problem is your talking in circles.

In your opening statement you wrote, and i quote "the watch is a certified copy of itself with an inaccurate Swiss copy of an excellent movement. The really sad part is how a brand as Tag Heuer can use such piece of s..., as Selitta SW200 is, in their watches".

Seems like you are questioning the quality of the selitta movement the flood of posts that followed has landed you clearly over your head.

This has been an entertaining thread. Like a car crash no one wants to see one happen but they cant help but drive by slow for a peak.


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## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

You know the worst part? The ETA 2824 is basically a copy of the Eterna Calibre 1429U from 1961.

Shame ETA, shame.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

calibre 11 said:


> You know the worst part? The ETA 2824 is basically a copy of the Eterna Calibre 1429U from 1961.
> 
> Shame ETA, shame.


isn't there a statute of limitations re: how many years you can wag your finger at them?


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## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

I think its 100 years. Until 2061 they should be forced by Swiss law to print "Copied by ETA" on every rotor.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

calibre 11 said:


> I think its 100 years. Until 2061 they should be forced by Swiss law to print "Copied by ETA" on every rotor.


email or call Hayek. I'm sure he'll do lunch. Hold your ground.


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## pacific17 (Aug 3, 2010)

funny.. but as i remembered, when i got my AR Calibre 5, it didnt say that it has an ETA movement. Mine has a SW200 and runs fine. +3/-3 secs per day.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Which means it has a great track record.


calibre 11 said:


> You know the worst part? The ETA 2824 is basically a copy of the Eterna Calibre 1429U from 1961.
> 
> Shame ETA, shame.


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## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

Guess I should have used a couple of these in my posts above ;-)

Anyhow, what is now ETA used to be the movement division of ETernA. My point was that the concept of "borrowing" and "improving" an existing design is hardly something new.

Cheers


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

it's that damn extra jewel Selitta inserted, nobody knows where.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

calibre 11 said:


> Guess I should have used a couple of these in my posts above ;-)
> 
> Anyhow, what is now ETA used to be the movement division of ETernA. My point was that the concept of "borrowing" and "improving" an existing design is hardly something new.
> 
> Cheers


Indeed. Movements are evolutionary and often, as soon as patents expired, one maker would come out with an evolution of another's movements... or, sometimes, a direct copy. Check Dr. Ranfft's archive for the many 'based on' movements.

Since patents are bought and sold, holding a valid patent does not even mean the holder created the technology. The critical thing in movements is how well they are built and adjusted, activities that often have little to do with the technology itself.

All this thread's folderol is one of the reasons TAGHeuer does not talk much about these matters - nor do they ever talk about what ETA 'grade' movement they are using. Good parts. Good assembly. Good adjustment. Those are the key.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Eeeb said:


> All this thread's folderol is one of the reasons TAGHeuer does not talk much about these matters - nor do they ever talk about what ETA 'grade' movement they are using.


what is "folderol?" Sounds like a verdict before evidence. To me it appears ingenuous that you believe very quietly substituting an SW200 for ETA2824 is a manufacturer's perk. As long as the Selitta SW200 is perceived as not quite the ETA2824, the consumer should know what is the engine and its technical sheet? Would you buy a $50,000 sports car and put up with being only told the engine is "American Made?"

Personally, I would accept an SW200 in place of the ETA2824. Not a big deal for me, BUT I know that if I sell it in the near future the fact it has the SW200 will give me a depreciation plunge, more or less. I want that depreciation reflected in the price of the new watch with the SW200.

The worst thing these very well regarded watch companies that use the SW200 can do in regard to the SW200 gaining equal respectability with the 2824 is tacitly apologizing for it with an inky squid screen which gives no info.

Big surprise watch companies don't have a meeting where they finally nod their head and agree the reality is Swiss movements beyond ETA, so about time they did everything they can to be proud of offering the SW200 in their watches. None of the companies want to pick up the tab.


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## wristclock (Jul 5, 2010)

So let me get this straight, you wanted a 2824 movt so you bought a TAG :think: why wouldn't you just buy a watch that is way cheaper with the same movement? It is a very common movement used in a number of great watches that are half price or less. TAGs are known for their cool designs and well made cases and bracelets, not their movements. by the way I get where you are coming from, I too am a little miffed to find out TAG is using selita and Ronda movements in multi thousand dollar seemingly 'high end' watches.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

wristclock said:


> So let me get this straight, you wanted a 2824 movt so you bought a TAG :think: why wouldn't you just buy a watch that is way cheaper with the same movement? It is a very common movement used in a number of great watches that are half price or less. TAGs are known for their cool designs and well made cases and bracelets, not their movements. by the way I get where you are coming from, I too am a little miffed to find out TAG is using selita and Ronda movements in multi thousand dollar seemingly 'high end' watches.


Dear! Tag Heuer is quite cheap. But watch is everything. case, bracelet and ... the movement. Í know a lot of people driving Alfa Romeo. Not for the quality but because it is Alfa. 
And saving a couple of dollar on high end watches is attractive for the company but not for all of the customers.

I use Samsung cameras for their Schneider-Kreuznach lens. In many cases their own lens proved to be as good as the one from Schneider but many wants a lens from Scneider. If the content is not important why is Sony proud of Car-Zeiss and Panasonic of Leica?

Back to the owner of Tag. LV. Extremly popular in China. A bit desoriented market. A booming market for high-end watches. But their question the quality of the watches sold in China and prefer buy in Europe. I have many friend in China and I help to buy a lot of watches. A lot (?) ok - 12 so far. The cheapest one 4700 SEK, the most expensive 151000SEK.

Many of my friend just want a Swiss made watch with authomatic movements. But one day they will understand that there is more than only "Swiss made". One of the friends followed this threads. Got impressed by one of the answers and kindly asked if I can find Eterna Calibre 1429U preferably from 1961.

And I will find. Maybe not from 1961 but.

My point is what happens when the people want a history not only a fancy piece of metal.


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## allaction (Jan 9, 2008)

Didn't Tag buy the rights to a Seiko movement a couple of years ago? Imagine if he got one of those!


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

allaction said:


> Didn't Tag buy the rights to a Seiko movement a couple of years ago? Imagine if he got one of those!


and it was made in China!


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## novan3 (Sep 8, 2010)

Sinn U1 is a fine watch that states in the user manual that it's powered by an ETA 2824-2.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Sean779 said:


> and it was made in China!


Really???

Would love to have one! Can you help which model it is?


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## heb (Feb 24, 2006)

Similar thing happened to me 5 or 6 months ago with a purchase of a Raymond Weil "Parsifal". It was between it and a TH Link automatic. I convinced myself that the RW was preferable. I partially based my decision on the ETA 2892 that was in the "old" Parsifal. I wanted the new version because of some preferred aesthetic changes. Unfortunately, the major change was replacing the 2892 with the SW 200; talk about a cost of manufacture reduction for RW! 

It was certainly my fault for not doing "due diligence" before purchasing; I'm old enough to realize that anything "new version" means "cheaper to produce" for the manufacturer, NEVER an advantage for the consumer. Anyway, my Parsifal is the most accurate and stable mechanical watch in my extensive collection. Talk about the luck of the draw; first times' the charm.

heb


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

hamsand said:


> Really???
> 
> Would love to have one! Can you help which model it is?


HUMOR! HUMOR! HUMOR! Sean779 was being HUMOROUS!!!


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Eeeb said:


> HUMOR! HUMOR! HUMOR! Sean779 was being HUMOROUS!!!


Me too! o|


----------



## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

heb said:


> Similar thing happened to me 5 or 6 months ago with a purchase of a Raymond Weil "Parsifal". It was between it and a TH Link automatic. I convinced myself that the RW was preferable. I partially based my decision on the ETA 2892 that was in the "old" Parsifal. I wanted the new version because of some preferred aesthetic changes. Unfortunately, the major change was replacing the 2892 with the SW 200; talk about a cost of manufacture reduction for RW!
> 
> It was certainly my fault for not doing "due diligence" before purchasing; I'm old enough to realize that anything "new version" means "cheaper to produce" for the manufacturer, NEVER an advantage for the consumer. Anyway, my Parsifal is the most accurate and stable mechanical watch in my extensive collection. Talk about the luck of the draw; first times' the charm.
> 
> heb


Don't have time to check the model now but strange to replace 2892 with SW200? Is not the SW 300 a replacement. 
And not always new version means cheaper. 
I would like to have 2892 or actually its derivative in Omega Constalletion.

It's not the first watch you buy and not the last but ETA is ETA. Always to prefer!


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

hamsand said:


> Really???
> 
> Would love to have one! Can you help which model it is?


you can start with Invicta and its Seiko (China) NH25a movement which I have and quite like.


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## lefe (Nov 21, 2011)

hamsand said:


> ...If the content is not important why is Sony proud of Car-Zeiss and Panasonic of Leica?...


You mean they are paying to use these names and melting and polishing their own glass. Now I understand your awareness regarding branding.


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## fastward (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm lost. What's going on?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

lefe said:


> You mean they are paying to use these names and melting and polishing their own glass. Now I understand your awareness regarding branding.


I don't believe either one of those companies--Zeiss/Leica--would lend their name without at least their expertise, including optical formulas; not when my Sony F707 says "Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar" and has a cult following due in large part to the Zeiss lens.

Personally, I don't believe there's anything inferior about the Selitta, nor do I believe Sony uses a fake Zeiss lens. Inflamed rhetoric is just that, it's not fact.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

fastward said:


> I'm lost. What's going on?


Typical discussion of which movement is better than another movement based solely on personal preference instead of anything tangible.


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## underpar (Jan 26, 2009)

I can't believe I just read this entire thread. There's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

underpar said:


> I can't believe I just read this entire thread. There's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back.


not to mention the 3 seconds I spent reading yours.


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

I vote this the best post of the year. And we are almost in december...



underpar said:


> I can't believe I just read this entire thread. There's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

enricodepaoli said:


> I vote this the best post of the year. And we are almost in december...


with all due respect, you need to get out more ;-).


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

enricodepaoli said:


> I vote this the best post of the year. And we are almost in December...


Since when did WUS become a democracy? LOL !


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

A lot of watch forums types need to get out more.


Sean779 said:


> with all due respect, you need to get out more ;-).


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Sean779 said:


> I don't believe either one of those companies--Zeiss/Leica--would lend their name without at least their expertise, including optical formulas; not when my Sony F707 says "Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar" and has a cult following due in large part to the Zeiss lens.
> 
> Personally, I don't believe there's anything inferior about the Selitta, nor do I believe Sony uses a fake Zeiss lens. Inflamed rhetoric is just that, it's not fact.


Unfortunately it is :-(

In some cases the branding means - certified and it's fine for me. As I already said before if Selitta SW200 was called 2824-A3 and was certified by ETA - guess - I am satisfied. 
People like different things and it's normal. I am just angry with TAG not being clear about changes in Calibre 5.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

hamsand said:


> Unfortunately it is :-(
> 
> In some cases the branding means - certified and it's fine for me. As I already said before if Selitta SW200 was called 2824-A3 and was certified by ETA - guess - I am satisfied.
> People like different things and it's normal. I am just angry with TAG not being clear about changes in Calibre 5.


thing is, those of us in the know--long term cynical lovers of watches--know to do the research and trust nothing and no one. It's a battlefield out there.

That you didn't know to do your research, that you could trust...well now you know. It's a part of WISdom we wish we didn't have.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

I appriciate your help and information I got on this forum. I am about to open new thread and ask for help to trace some movements and watches.

And let us try a last view angle. If Selitta officially cooperated with Eterna (not only selling movement) and aquired rights to the name Eterna Calibre 1429U-XXI then the SW200 would suddenly become more valuable than ETA2824A2.

So the branding is the issue. The quality is always OK.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Sean779 said:


> thing is, those of us in the know--long term cynical lovers of watches--know to do the research and trust nothing and no one. It's a battlefield out there.
> 
> That you didn't know to do your research, that you could trust...well now you know. It's a part of WISdom we wish we didn't have.


I know! You were a great help.

But never forget - collecting is about getting f....d from time to time. Then the real stuff you desire will be even better.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

hamsand said:


> So the branding is the issue. The quality is always OK.


Mostly, I'd say yes. And we WIS watchdogs here you know sleep with one eye open...


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

hamsand said:


> I know! You were a great help.
> 
> But never forget - collecting is about getting f....d from time to time. Then the real stuff you desire will be even better.


I'm glad you started this thread. I thought people were pretty much ok with the Selitta. Not quite there yet.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Sean779 said:


> I'm glad you started this thread. I thought people were pretty much ok with the Selitta. Not quite there yet.


I am OK with Selitta! But I am not OK about switching from ETA to Selitta without telling this. Then I feel bad.

Did you hear about the Volvo P1800 owned by Irv Garden with B18 engine still working after 3e6 miles! I want same engine. Not a patent-went-out copy. 
Buying stuff is about celebrating.

I went to Copenhagen to see "Green Stripe" by Matisse. I can see it on every screen I choose but want to see the original.

Automatic watches are completly outdated but people still buy them! Watch lovers buy. But love is blind as mine was for TH Aquaracer. "She" turned up to be a b..c, hiding the origines.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

underpar said:


> I can't believe I just read this entire thread. There's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back.


Nobody asked you to!!!!!!

If you read this - ya - ...........


----------



## lefe (Nov 21, 2011)

Sean779 said:


> I'm glad you started this thread. I thought people were pretty much ok with the Selitta. Not quite there yet.


In this thread there is a picture of an (older?) calibre5 (its nearly at the end).
https://www.watchuseek.com/f25/carrera-club-522434.html
I have recently bought the same watch with silver dial.

I notice two things:

1) It's less nicely finished then the SW200 in my watch. I know this has nothing to do with quality, but the SW200 has a nicer look to me.

2) In the picture you clearly can see the use of Novodiac/Etachoc instead of Incabloc.
According to this thread ETA is using Incabloc for Top and Chronometre.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f66/smoke-mirrors-part-1-eta-grades-explained-501830.html This corresponds to the technical information of Selitta for the SW200.
The conclusion is that the movement from the picture is Standard or Elaboré grade.

The SW200 movement in my watch has an Incabloc, hence it is Top grade.
I'm not sure of the movement from the picture is ETA, but if Tag was using ETA Standard or Elaboré grade in the past I definitely prefer the SW200 Top grade over the ETA 2824. That's a difference what matters when it comes to quality and adjustments, so in that case yes, the SW200 is a better movement. And this has nothing to do with branding but facts.


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## del996 (Oct 23, 2011)

underpar said:


> I can't believe I just read this entire thread. There's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back.


I can't believe you read this thread in fifteen minutes, it's taken me hours! ;-)


----------



## vanilla.coffee (Feb 27, 2011)

Edouard Heuer leaves thread disappointed.


----------



## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

vanilla.coffee said:


> Edouard Heuer leaves thread disappointed.


???????????

What are you talking about??


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

lefe said:


> In this thread there is a picture of an (older?) calibre5 (its nearly at the end).
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f25/carrera-club-522434.html
> I have recently bought the same watch with silver dial.
> 
> ...


Yes... Talk about getting the point. Even if Selitta is much better it is still not the real stuff. You have what you prefer so......

Listen. ETA 2824A2 is an icon. Not especially good but can be sufficient both in question of accuracy and durability. I am amazed watching movement in Grand Seiko. But it is still no icon. Old Ford Mustang is not especially good if you measure with present standarts but it is an icon and once again ETA 2824 is a "living" icon.

I both some movements for 78 dollars/piece so it is quite cheap icon but still it is one. Selitta where contacted to manufacture 2824 partially or whatever. Their redesigned it a bit and started to sell when the avaiability of 2824 ceased. 
So.... in my eyes... still a copy.


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## lefe (Nov 21, 2011)

hamsand said:


> ???????????
> 
> What are you talking about??


Maybe he learned from this thread that some of his Tags are using cheap 2824 Standard/Elaboré grade movements.


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## lefe (Nov 21, 2011)

hamsand said:


> ...Old Ford Mustang is not especially good if you measure with present standarts but it is an icon and once again ETA 2824 is a "living" icon...


Rent an old (icon) Ford Mustang and drive over your watch with this shameless copy movement in it while filming. Put the recording on Youtube. Then you are really making a statement. Icon versus fakes.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

lefe said:


> Maybe he learned from this thread that some of his Tags are using cheap 2824 Standard/Elaboré grade movements.


Again, I reiterate, grade is not as important as you imply by calling them "cheap". The handwork of proper assembly, the finishing and the adjusting are what makes a great watch. Darn near every watch being made today has a consistency of parts and a level of technology that exceeds anything that was available 50 years ago. But vintage movements made and adjusted by artisans 50 years ago can still outperform most modern watches.

I have some 2824s that outperform some 2892s and the differences between these movements far exceeds any of the minor variations between grades.

I confess I too worried and fretted about grades in my early days of collecting. Now I see it as just another data item to be processed. Simplistic answers do not usually match well with complex questions.


----------



## lefe (Nov 21, 2011)

The term “cheap” was somewhat ironically used by me considering the whole context of this thread. You are referring to finishing and adjusting what makes a great watch, and I think this is where the different grades can still make a difference? 
Or is this merely marketing instead of an indication of things such as used materials and adjustments?


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

lefe said:


> The term "cheap" was somewhat ironically used by me considering the whole context of this thread. You are referring to finishing and adjusting what makes a great watch, and I think this is where the different grades can still make a difference?
> Or is this merely marketing instead of an indication of things such as used materials and adjustments?


It certainly does not hurt to have the improved components of a 'top grade' movement. And getting a watch properly timed in all positions (adjusting) can be made less difficult by the improvements. But it is not the whole story.

Car analogies seem to work well so here is one... you can order block racing engines already assembled from Jegs and many others. You can buy their top of the line, take it out of the crate and stick it into a car and race it. But beware of the guy in the next bay over with a non-top of the line version... he didn't just go from crate to race. He adjusted the engine to his liking... and he'll probably beat you in the next race.


----------



## tpd80 (Jun 28, 2011)

Watchbreath said:


> A lot of watch forums types need to get out more.


Starting with you Mr. 10,785 posts.


----------



## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

Sean779 said:


> with all due respect, you need to get out more ;-).


Los Angeles, Las Vegas, New York, Miami, Frankfurt, Rio de Janeiro, etc.. In a couple of months. I guess I need to get in more! Not much time to know all tv quotes... But enough time to enjoy life, my watches and some forum on the iPhone.

I guess the post worked even funnier then, not knowing its origin! Tks for the PM


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

lefe said:


> Rent an old (icon) Ford Mustang and drive over your watch with this shameless copy movement in it while filming. Put the recording on Youtube. Then you are really making a statement. Icon versus fakes.


???:rodekaart


----------



## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Eeeb said:


> It certainly does not hurt to have the improved components of a 'top grade' movement. And getting a watch properly timed in all positions (adjusting) can be made less difficult by the improvements. But it is not the whole story.
> 
> Car analogies seem to work well so here is one... you can order block racing engines already assembled from Jegs and many others. You can buy their top of the line, take it out of the crate and stick it into a car and race it. But beware of the guy in the next bay over with a non-top of the line version... he didn't just go from crate to race. He adjusted the engine to his liking... and he'll probably beat you in the next race.


Yes .... Try to imagine a watch manufacturer advetising that his watches are faster than all the competition.....

Analogies with the car are OK! but top grade movement is already a ... top grade movement  
No reason to chase better accuracy, but you certainly have a point. Breitling is a master of assembling and improving.


----------



## nakedjohnny (Nov 21, 2009)

still don't understand what OP was trying to say exactly


----------



## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

hamsand said:


> ..but top grade movement is already a ... top grade movement
> No reason to chase better accuracy, but you certainly have a point. Breitling is a master of assembling and improving.


Watch movements are the result of precision manufacturing. But every one made performs differently and some need to be coaxed along by the tweaking of adjustment to meet the standards the manufacturer sets for themselves. Fewer may fall out of these specs if you are buying top grades. But if you have faith in your final QA steps, you may get decent results without the extra expense of top grade... and if all you do is buy top grades to avoid the expense of a decent QA process, you can actually get poorer overall results.

A personal example is Ebel. Their 3 hand auto is based on an ETA 2892-A2. Some have questioned the extra expense of buying their watches when, for half the price you can get other vendor's versions... But the Ebels I have seen were reworked into amazing performers, exceeding COSC standards easily. (Caveat, limited number of data elements.) You get something for the extra money (besides the Ebel Classic Wave's case and bracelet - which make it The World's Most Beautiful Watch a point upon which I will admit no debate :-d).


----------



## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

b-) Yep, there's something sensual about handling a Classic Wave and 1911. I think this thread is 
getting a bit too 'long in the tooth'.


Eeeb said:


> Watch movements are the result of precision manufacturing. But every one made performs differently and some need to be coaxed along by the tweaking of adjustment to meet the standards the manufacturer sets for themselves. Fewer may fall out of these specs if you are buying top grades. But if you have faith in your final QA steps, you may get decent results without the extra expense of top grade... and if all you do is buy top grades to avoid the expense of a decent QA process, you can actually get poorer overall results.
> 
> A personal example is Ebel. Their 3 hand auto is based on an ETA 2892-A2. Some have questioned the extra expense of buying their watches when, for half the price you can get other vendor's versions... But the Ebels I have seen were reworked into amazing performers, exceeding COSC standards easily. (Caveat, limited number of data elements.) You get something for the extra money (besides the Ebel Classic Wave's case and bracelet - which make it The World's Most Beautiful Watch a point upon which I will admit no debate :-d).


----------



## Watchyman (Mar 4, 2010)

Watchbreath said:


> b-) Yep, there's something sensual about handling a Classic Wave and 1911.


This has certainly been an entertaining thread, i like Ebel's too.


----------



## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Watchyman said:


> This has certainly been an entertaining thread, i like Ebel's too.


Ebel seems to exist in its own never never land, OEM only straps and bracelets. I've had a few of their watches and got tired of the styling, and what until a few years ago was their small size. They certainly have my respect for going their own way, both in movement finishing and design, where they look like nothing else out there.


----------



## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:-( They kinda bombed with the Sportwave. Not quite out there like Corum.


Sean779 said:


> Ebel seems to exist in its own never never land, OEM only straps and bracelets. I've had a few of their watches and got tired of the styling, and what until a few years ago was their small size. They certainly have my respect for going their own way, both in movement finishing and design, where they look like nothing else out there.


----------



## Watchyman (Mar 4, 2010)

Sean779 said:


> Ebel seems to exist in its own never never land, OEM only straps and bracelets. I've had a few of their watches and got tired of the styling, and what until a few years ago was their small size. They certainly have my respect for going their own way, both in movement finishing and design, where they look like nothing else out there.





Watchbreath said:


> :-( They kinda bombed with the Sportwave. Not quite out there like Corum.


Whenever i'm in the Seattle Premium Outlet mall i "escape" my wife's sight to go play with them at the Movado outlet; the first time i saw them "in the flesh" i was quite impressed with the quality and attention to detail the BTR's had. I know what Sean is saying though, they are in their own little Universe, but they are overall nice choices IMHO. I am by no means and expert or a connoisseur but the movement decoration and the spoked oscillating mass on those BTR's is really worth a look.


----------



## underpar (Jan 26, 2009)

enricodepaoli said:


> I vote this the best post of the year. And we are almost in december...





Sean779 said:


> with all due respect, you need to get out more ;-).


I think you should read this thread again then take some of your own advice and get out more.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

The question is if Ebel will continue with ETA or choose to make itself to a ... (have no words for that) and switch to Selitta.
As you probably realized I am not Selitta's biggest fan


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

hamsand said:


> The question is if Ebel will continue with ETA or choose to make itself to a ... (have no words for that) and switch to Selitta.
> As you probably realized I am not Selitta's biggest fan


Ebel is becoming a 100% manufacture brand and would probably develop their own movement before going to Sellita (or maybe already have).

The logical process is for TAG to use and/or develop a base auto movement with Zenith. However, at this time, it is still economically feasible to outsource. When we do see a TAG 3-hand auto, expect prices similar to what Omega's seamaster is priced at, about $3800. The you'll really be squawking....


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

Wisconsin Proud said:


> Ebel is becoming a 100% manufacture brand and would probably develop their own movement before going to Sellita (or maybe already have).
> 
> The logical process is for TAG to use and/or develop a base auto movement with Zenith. However, at this time, it is still economically feasible to outsource. When we do see a TAG 3-hand auto, expect prices similar to what Omega's seamaster is priced at, about $3800. The you'll really be squawking....


If Tag Heuer will develop the movement with Zenith I am ready to buy more watches. One question. All the specification of Omega Seamaster refer to ETA 2892. Is there any Omega with ETA 2824-2?

And if Edel will develop their own movement as a reaction to Sea-Gull ST 2130 and Selitta SW 200 then I am the first one to buy.


----------



## Johnny fever (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm with you, FASTWARD. I will PM you if I figure it out. 


fastward said:


> I'm lost. What's going on?


----------



## Johnny fever (Oct 26, 2011)

I LOLed, vanilla... well stated


vanilla.coffee said:


> Edouard Heuer leaves thread disappointed.


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Here's something else to think about . . . TAG Heuer not being a Swatch Group brand, the supply of ETA movements will dry up in the not-too-distant future. I already know one individual who wanted to get his older TAG restored. TAG told him he should sell it for spare parts because they didn't stock parts for older TAG Heuer watches. 

Yup, that's what he was told. "Sell it for parts, we can't help you."

Want to try out an ETA 2824-2 movement? Get a watch from a brand that's owned by the Swatch Group. Want a TAG Heuer to last more than a few years? Selitta SW200 is going to be a better option.


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## jchfriis (Aug 2, 2009)

Actually I know of one company that states on their website exactly what movement is inside their watches. Oris says this about their BC3 Sportsman:



Number:Oris 735, base SW 220Dimensions:Ø 25.60 mm, 11 1/2'''Functions:Centre hands for hours, minutes and seconds, individual date and day windows, instantaneous date and day, date and day corrector, fine timing device and stop-secondWinding:Automatic winding, bi-directionally rotating red rotorPower-Reserve:38 hrsVibrations:28'800 A/h, 4 HzJewels:26

I have this watch and it performes within COSC specifications without being certified.





Sean779 said:


> That's the thing: No company wants to take the masochistic fall of advertising they're using a perceived slightly inferior movement in the Selitta. That reluctance is financially based, as it should be in capitalism: what happens if I buy it new and sell it used? ETA brings a higher price than Selitta!


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Many do.


jchfriis said:


> Actually I know of one company that states on their website exactly what movement is inside their watches. Oris says this about their BC3 Sportsman:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ppl4golf (Oct 26, 2011)

Does anyone know what movement I have in my Calibre 5 Aquaracer Day-Date ?
Model# is WAF2011.BA00818 Purchased recently from a B&M Costco.
On the back, it's just WAF2011 no dash, nothing else. It's probably NOS as the box is one of those cheaper looking, narrower plastic box.

I am liking it more and more, the first couple of weeks, it was hopping like a rabbit and did +8-12s per day. Then, slowed down a little to 6-7s/day. The last few days, it has settles down nicely and doing an amazing +2s per 24hrs. Whatever movement is in, I dig it !

Any info is appreciated.

PS - I wear it all the time since day 1, except when I am in the shower


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Most likely, ETA 2836.


ppl4golf said:


> Does anyone know what movement I have in my Calibre 5 Aquaracer Day-Date ?
> Model# is WAF2011.BA00818 Purchased recently from a B&M Costco.
> On the back, it's just WAF2011 no dash, nothing else. It's probably NOS as the box is one of those cheaper looking, narrower plastic box.
> 
> ...


----------



## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

jchfriis said:


> Actually I know of one company that states on their website exactly what movement is inside their watches. Oris says this about their BC3 Sportsman:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. A perfect reason not to buy ORIS. If their skeleton was based on ETA it would be one of the most admirale watches. The design is amazing but SW 200 .

But OK they are honest


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## vanilla.coffee (Feb 27, 2011)

. Nothing


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## ppl4golf (Oct 26, 2011)

Watchbreath said:


> Most likely, ETA 2836.


Thanks!

I searched ETA 2836 + TAG and also found THIS


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## bmwfreak (Jun 7, 2008)

ppl4golf said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I searched ETA 2836 + TAG and also found THIS


It's either a ETA 2836 or Sellita SW220. You can determine the movement by either the jewel count (25=ETA, 26=Sellita) or look under the balance wheel for the engraved movement number.


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## hamsand (Nov 16, 2011)

So.... the subject is over:-(

I am still angry but OK. Probably no one out there to appriciate the original only when it's pure.


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

it's quite simple:

i) you were not cheated - you failed to find out what you were buying
ii) the Sellita SW200 is not a piece of .... copy
iii) in your first post, you said you'd give away the watch - I'll take it off your hands to rid you of this evil curse


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## Cowboy Bebop (Jan 9, 2011)

I know a few people who have watches with Sellita movements and the thing is pretty darn accurate. I know it's not ETA but still it is swiss made just not an ETA model, it's a copy but a pretty good one, if this is an issue of accuracy, a simple calibration is in order if it's not and only based on the fact that you were stunned to find out that it wasn't ETA, as other members have said research is a must so that you know what you're getting under the hood. Another thing to be noted, at the time of buying the watch it should have been clear between the salesman and the buyer that what they were buying is not an ETA. I'm just putting this out there because I've recently purchased a Frederique Constant watch and my salesrep told me before hands it's not ETA but Sellita.

I hope this will ease the tension going on this thread.

Best regards.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:-( I'm sure this thread will be dug up again in the future.


hamsand said:


> So.... the subject is over:-(
> 
> I am still angry but OK. Probably no one out there to appriciate the original only when it's pure.


----------



## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Watchbreath said:


> :-( I'm sure this thread will be dug up again in the future.


I fear you are correct... But we'll see and hope otherwise


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Eeeb said:


> I fear you are correct... But we'll see and hope otherwise


just to lay it not quite to rest: I believe the op has a legit complaint. Do I believe there is subterfuge in hiding a Selitta movement by choosing to call the movement in watch descriptions simply as Swiss Automatic. Yes I do. Many here in this thread have opined that the op should have done his homework. Ok, fine, but the op as any customer should not have to battle a clouded description of the movement in the watch.

No matter whether the sw200 is technically the equal or not of the 2824, it is a fact that the 2824 is the preferred movement, based on longevity in the market. If a sw200 is foisted on you, there will be financial penalty you will incur should you sell it.

Personally, I'm ok with the sw200. I've had the movement in several watches, and they've felt and performed exactly as the 2824. I'm ok with the quality of the sw200. What I'm not happy with is the degree of subterfuge watch companies go through to hide the movement in the watch under such vagueness as "Swiss automatic." The moment you read those words now is the moment the movement is a Selitta. You can blame Hamsand for not doing his research, but realistically we should blaming watch companies who attempt to conceal whether it's ETA or Selitta under the hood.


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

This is a very common issue among manufactures of audio equipment, watches, automobiles and so on... The same Mercedes-Benz /8 (w114/w115) has been manufactured with Solex, Zenith and Stromberg carburetors. This is known amongst Mercedes lovers, fans and collectors, but it has never been mentioned nor advertised by the company. Some people may prefer the Solex and it even my yield a higher premium to the car that is equipped with it, but it is not like the manufacturer must advertise it.

The only think that would be wrong, would be a lie or some false advertising, like, promoting the watch around its ETA movement, and seamlessly moving to Selitta without ever mentioning it. But TAG Heuer has never leant on the ETA name on its advertising or promotion. They just choose what they think is the correct for their products.

I agree ETA equipped TAGs give concerned customers some pride due to its tradition, and I would feel the same. But I guess there should be nothing wrong with Selitta.


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

the merit of any movement used should ultimately be based on its performance and not the brand.


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

You guys seen the latest hottest topic on WUS?

The one about the Swatch Group now getting ready to go ahead and cut off the supply of ETA movements to every brand that isn't one of their's. 

OP should be happy as Hell that his TAG Heuer has a Selitta movement. If anything breaks down, he'll be able to get parts for it in the future. As for TAG owners who have ETA movements in their watches . . . Good luck to them!


----------



## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

enricodepaoli said:


> The only think that would be wrong, would be a lie or some false advertising, like, promoting the watch around its ETA movement, and seamlessly moving to Selitta without ever mentioning it. But TAG Heuer has never leant on the ETA name on its advertising or promotion. They just choose what they think is the correct for their products.


The move from ETA to Selitta is a recent one. Many watch companies choose to keep mum about this, what powers their watch. I prefer complete information on something I'm spending a great deal of money on. The fastest way to discredit a product is to pretend it's something else.


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

The fact they will not supply full movements to other watch makers have nothing to do with the supply of parts, sourcing and repairing.



Monocrom said:


> You guys seen the latest hottest topic on WUS?
> 
> The one about the Swatch Group now getting ready to go ahead and cut off the supply of ETA movements to every brand that isn't one of their's.
> 
> OP should be happy as Hell that his TAG Heuer has a Selitta movement. If anything breaks down, he'll be able to get parts for it in the future. As for TAG owners who have ETA movements in their watches . . . Good luck to them!


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

enricodepaoli said:


> The fact they will not supply full movements to other watch makers have nothing to do with the supply of parts, sourcing and repairing.


There was nothing mentioned with regards to exceptions being made. Some WUS members have mentioned that the Swiss government will make sure that parts are made available to those who already own non-Swatch Group brands containing ETA movements. But there is no word as to if such a provision will be made.


----------



## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Monocrom said:


> There was nothing mentioned with regards to exceptions being made. Some WUS members have mentioned that the Swiss government will make sure that parts are made available to those who already own non-Swatch Group brands containing ETA movements. But there is no word as to if such a provision will be made.


that's what this is all about...ETA/Swatch throwing its considerable weight around, keeping everyone on tender hooks.


----------



## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

Don't know why all of a sudden NYT picked up on this. The Court case was back in September. Anyway, from a TAG Heuer perspective, here is what the CEO had to say about Swatch/ Comco/ Sellita:

Independence Day? TAG Heuer's Movement Future | Calibre 11 -TAG Heuer Watches

Interesting that TAG Heuer have withdrawn their complaint...am sure that there has been a "meeting of the minds"!

David


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Thanks for the link. It made for excellent reading. I am personally considering getting an Aquaracer down the road. I'll specifically look for one with a Sellita movement instead of an ETA. I see no reason to take chances on getting replacement parts down the road if needed.


----------



## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks- pleased you found it interesting.

To be honest, I wouldn't worry about ETA parts. These movements have been made in massive numbers for more than 40 years- there are plenty of parts to go around.

Cheers


----------



## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

Besides... don't you think Selitta or even other companies would make parts if there was a demand and not enough supply ??



calibre 11 said:


> Thanks- pleased you found it interesting.
> 
> To be honest, I wouldn't worry about ETA parts. These movements have been made in massive numbers for more than 40 years- there are plenty of parts to go around.
> 
> Cheers


----------



## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Monocrom said:


> Thanks for the link. It made for excellent reading. I am personally considering getting an Aquaracer down the road. I'll specifically look for one with a Sellita movement instead of an ETA. I see no reason to take chances on getting replacement parts down the road if needed.





calibre 11 said:


> Thanks- pleased you found it interesting.
> 
> To be honest, I wouldn't worry about ETA parts. These movements have been made in massive numbers for more than 40 years- there are plenty of parts to go around.
> 
> Cheers


I agree, great article; giving an understandable overview of the whole mess.

Monocrom's thought is a unique read or twist on how to respond to Swatch very likely not supplying parts in the future. Don't buy ETA unless it's in a Swatch. Good luck getting a company to come in and supply parts that ETA won't, when it will be a diminishing business as more non-Swatch watch companies make their own movements and/or source from Selitta, Soprod, et al.

Calibre 11, are you saying 40 years of running and junked ETAs will provide parts for ETA movements into whatever future is left for ETA? I'm thinking Monocrom's got the more plausible read here.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

enricodepaoli said:


> Besides... don't you think Selitta or even other companies would make parts if there was a demand and not enough supply ??


What honestly worries me is that Sellita in its current state is simply not big enough to take over the demand for parts and movements, if the supply of ETA movements gets cut off to all non-Swatch Group brands. Unfortunately Sellita, despite not being big enough to directly take over for ETA, is the biggest Swiss movement-maker that is not part of the Swatch Group. In an odd way, Sellita is big, but at the same time too small.


----------



## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

you may also want to have a quick read of this short discussion we had when the article was first posted.
link


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## WatchChuck (Oct 26, 2010)

Toronto Pete said:


> Wasn't there a thread where one of our more knowledgeable watchmakers stripped down those two movements and compared every part? I think he came to the conclusion that they were functionally identical, and visually almost 1:1, if I remember correctly.


My understanding from a watchmaker is that the SW200 has the same dimensions as the ETA 2824 *after the movement has been assembled* so the SW200 will fit watch cases made for the ETA 2824. If you took both movements completely apart they are NOT the same exact pieces.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

WatchChuck said:


> My understanding from a watchmaker is that the SW200 has the same dimensions as the ETA 2824 *after the movement has been assembled* so the SW200 will fit watch cases made for the ETA 2824. If you took both movements completely apart they are NOT the same exact pieces.


Yup, as previously mentioned, there is that one extra jewel on the SW200.

Otherwise, they're identical.


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## Cowboy Bebop (Jan 9, 2011)

So, I received my Frederique Constant vintage rally watch (the Panda Dial) from my AD and it is powered by the SW500. The timing on this watch is insane... I'm running at -3 and +2 secs/day. So, the SW500 does has descent results... and it's not COSC.

~George


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## tpd80 (Jun 28, 2011)

My SW200 was running +20 seconds a day until i took my screw diver too it. 1st attempt to regulate it has it to +1s a day. Im very happy with my SW200.

Last week my ETA2895 lost a screw from the automatic bridge and got lost in the movement stopping it in its tracks. 

Im not bashing ETA for that, its a mechanical device and stuff like that happens. Just saying even the 'best' have issues and the 'worst' can be great.


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## CLEANS-HIGH (Feb 26, 2009)

I have quite a few watches with the Selitta 200 movement in them and they perform as well as my ETA movements, I have no problem with the movement,
A few Accutrons I purchaced lately has the Selitta movement, also a couple of my Invictas carry the movement, Just look at the rotor and if it says 26 Jewels
there is a good chance it is a Selitta, maybe yours just need adjusted because I consider them good movements and they did alot of work for ETA from what I heard


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## CLEANS-HIGH (Feb 26, 2009)

If you want to make sure you get an ETA movement than buy watches from one of the many Swatch group watches as of which TAG is not, Hamilton Tissot,
Longines, Rado, Omega etc


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## CLEANS-HIGH (Feb 26, 2009)

It could be the original poster wanted the ETA not because the movement was superior but because of the projected scarcity that is about to happen
to ETA movements


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

CLEANS-HIGH said:


> If you want to make sure you get an ETA movement than buy watches from one of the many Swatch group watches as of which TAG is not, Hamilton Tissot,
> Longines, Rado, Omega etc


With Sellita's history as a sub-contractor for ETA, don't be surprised if more than a few of those Sellita made ETA movements ended up in Swatch Group brand watches.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Monocrom said:


> With Sellita's history as a sub-contractor for ETA, don't be surprised if more than a few of those Sellita made ETA movements ended up in Swatch Group brand watches.


not the 26 jewel ones.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Sean779 said:


> not the 26 jewel ones.


No, not those. The 25 jewel ones are the ones I meant. Sorry, should have clarified that.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Monocrom said:


> No, not those. The 25 jewel ones are the ones I meant. Sorry, should have clarified that.


it wouldn't surprise me if that extra jewel is there to differentiate the Selitta movement from the 2824s Selitta made (and still make?) for ETA. (Also of course people who don't know much about watches/movements are impressed by jewels, although it didn't work on the OP. ;-))


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Sadly, some folks are never happy.

Even when they get the same thing they wanted, only under a different name. Oh well.


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## Outta Time (Feb 9, 2010)

I worked in a Swatch Service centre, and before that I worked at Breitling. This is a highly political issue, and I was unable to find out the answers I had as to what was really going on, as Sellita movements were suddenly pulled from the Mat house here, and it is not because of patent infringement or anything. 
So to my point: My personal observation is, that the SW 200 is a quality movement and is basically identical to the 2824. Sellita made movts for eta in the past, which is why they are tooled up to produce these. It is not a chronometer grade movt, but I found I could regulate the new ones to chronometer spec.
However, the SW300, or the 2892 clone, is actually an improvement on the ETA 2892, allowing better access for servicing. (bridge redesign that you would not notice unless you had the thing apart and were adjusting endshake) It is also not a chronometer grade movt, but can be regulated to COSC specs. I can't get into why this is, or more importantly, why even chronometers from the factory are sometimes completely unadjusted and fail, requiring elaborate setup before hitting the shelves. (confidentiality agreement) But as far as the perceptible value of the two movts goes, the ETA movts get better press, and are more recognizable as the originator of the design. So as has been mentioned, resale would definitely be affected, and so initial price should reflect this also, IMHO. Excellent thread!


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:think: I wonder if a Silver Bullet would work on this thread.


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## vanilla.coffee (Feb 27, 2011)

As this has been woken up again I will add the following observations now that I have had my Selitta equipped Carrera for a few weeks now.

This is the accuracy of my Selitta SW200 movement today.










This is in keeping with my checks against the atomic clock every couple of days. (It's an iPhone app called 'Kello' if anyone is interested)

Just thought I would share.


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

What a clever post for this thread. Thanks.



Outta Time said:


> I worked in a Swatch Service centre, and before that I worked at Breitling. This is a highly political issue, and I was unable to find out the answers I had as to what was really going on, as Sellita movements were suddenly pulled from the Mat house here, and it is not because of patent infringement or anything.
> So to my point: My personal observation is, that the SW 200 is a quality movement and is basically identical to the 2824. Sellita made movts for eta in the past, which is why they are tooled up to produce these. It is not a chronometer grade movt, but I found I could regulate the new ones to chronometer spec.
> However, the SW300, or the 2892 clone, is actually an improvement on the ETA 2892, allowing better access for servicing. (bridge redesign that you would not notice unless you had the thing apart and were adjusting endshake) It is also not a chronometer grade movt, but can be regulated to COSC specs. I can't get into why this is, or more importantly, why even chronometers from the factory are sometimes completely unadjusted and fail, requiring elaborate setup before hitting the shelves. (confidentiality agreement) But as far as the perceptible value of the two movts goes, the ETA movts get better press, and are more recognizable as the originator of the design. So as has been mentioned, resale would definitely be affected, and so initial price should reflect this also, IMHO. Excellent thread!


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Outta Time said:


> I worked in a Swatch Service centre, and before that I worked at Breitling. This is a highly political issue, and I was unable to find out the answers I had as to what was really going on, as Sellita movements were suddenly pulled from the Mat house here, and it is not because of patent infringement or anything.
> So to my point: My personal observation is, that the SW 200 is a quality movement and is basically identical to the 2824. Sellita made movts for eta in the past, which is why they are tooled up to produce these. It is not a chronometer grade movt, but I found I could regulate the new ones to chronometer spec.
> However, the SW300, or the 2892 clone, is actually an improvement on the ETA 2892, allowing better access for servicing. (bridge redesign that you would not notice unless you had the thing apart and were adjusting endshake) It is also not a chronometer grade movt, but can be regulated to COSC specs. I can't get into why this is, or more importantly, why even chronometers from the factory are sometimes completely unadjusted and fail, requiring elaborate setup before hitting the shelves. (confidentiality agreement) But as far as the perceptible value of the two movts goes, the ETA movts get better press, and are more recognizable as the originator of the design. So as has been mentioned, resale would definitely be affected, and so initial price should reflect this also, IMHO. Excellent thread!


Excellent post! |>


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## CLEANS-HIGH (Feb 26, 2009)

from what I understand ETA has had Selitta making certain movements for years


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## underpar (Jan 26, 2009)

Why won't this thread ever die?


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## tpd80 (Jun 28, 2011)

Does anyone know of a PC program like this one that only needs a microphone?

Thanks!



vanilla.coffee said:


> This is the accuracy of my Selitta SW200 movement today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Maybe a wooded stake, Silver Bullits have no effect.


underpar said:


> Why won't this thread ever die?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

underpar said:


> Why won't this thread ever die?


why are you forever on fun patrol?


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