# Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?



## emoscambio

Please post here your questions to the forum community, when you suspect something wrong on a watch or just want to be sure. You will surely receive a quick answer from the many experts in different technical fields and different brands.

Do not post in the "Franken of the week" thread that is a showcase reserved for undisputably frankened timepieces.


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## phd

Good idea!


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## Arizone

I guess I'll start this thread off with this watch for the heck of it. Standard Amphibian caseback, with 2416B automatic movement, and a replaced bracelet. With so few Neptunes to compare it to it's a bit interesting, such as the horizontal lines on the dial compared to the curved lines I have seen on others, among other details.


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## Arizone




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## Ham2

Looks legit


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## Skv

What to think about this? The rolex movement sounds really strange imho. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181181433297


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## schnurrp

Jelle86 said:


> What to think about this? The rolex movement sounds really strange imho. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181181433297


This is what's known as a fantasy watch, Jelle86, a watch fabricated to look like what a beginning collector may think a Russian "military/space" watch should look like. Not authentic. The soviet Molnija movement is being compared to the Rolex movement.


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## RobNJ

Mens VOSTOK Precision Vintage Russian Chronometer Watch Analogue Zenith Cal 135 | eBay

I'm pretty sure "no, it's not legit," but I wouldn't mind the full expert part-by-part rundown since I have no experience with these. So rather than the binary yes/no, might I ask, how close is this?

From what I see:

a) Caseback is certainly wrong
b) Crown probably wrong too
c) The hands...on the one hand, the black hands are, I think, wrong - but I think I have seen that hour/minute hand shape (leaf?) on the occasional 2809 model. Might they be OK if stripped back to brass?
d) The face - if this is wrong, I can't immediately see where, and the raised numerals are degree of difficulty votes in its favor. Still, it gives me a funny feeling.
e) Case...?
f) Movement - OK?

So...source a caseback (not that that's easy), strip the hands, and you're in business? Or total hodgepodge?


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## schnurrp

RobNJ said:


> Mens VOSTOK Precision Vintage Russian Chronometer Watch Analogue Zenith Cal 135 | eBay
> 
> I'm pretty sure "no, it's not legit," but I wouldn't mind the full expert part-by-part rundown since I have no experience with these. So rather than the binary yes/no, might I ask, how close is this?
> 
> From what I see:
> 
> a) Caseback is certainly wrong
> b) Crown probably wrong too
> c) The hands...on the one hand, the black hands are, I think, wrong - but I think I have seen that hour/minute hand shape (leaf?) on the occasional 2809 model. Might they be OK if stripped back to brass?
> d) The face - if this is wrong, I can't immediately see where, and the raised numerals are degree of difficulty votes in its favor. Still, it gives me a funny feeling.
> e) Case...?
> f) Movement - OK?
> 
> So...source a caseback (not that that's easy), strip the hands, and you're in business? Or total hodgepodge?


The movement looks okay, RobNJ. I believe the case is a stainless steel aftermarket case that I've seen mentioned on the forum in connection with the 2809s, the dial is a reproduction, and the hands have been painted. That having been said if I had it I would get out the paint remover and restore the hands (I'd rather see simple batons) and be happy to wear it in its new stainless steel package, as long as it kept good time.










That's how I see it.


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## RobNJ

Thanks - I haven't really delved into 2809s (though clearly they are on my mind), so overlooked the discussion of the cases. The back is obvious; the case itself less so, but I suppose they likely come as a package.


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## schnurrp

Yes, evidently the case and back are bought together.


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## RobNJ

I've got another one, if I may ask for a consultation:









The caseback is 1945-85 commemorative, matching the dial, and the movement is a 2234.

The classic location of this dial, as far as I've seen, is in the somewhat more egg-shaped case with a wider aperture, which allows also for a black (or dark brown?) non-rotating interior bezel or chapter ring. As in Michele's example, somewhat down on this page:

Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website

So I'm inclined to judge this as re-cased, perhaps because said bezel had deteriorated. But there is a certain amount of variation in the casing of these early Komandirskies, so I don't rule out the possibility that it is good, and I'd love to be shown that I'm wrong. Opinions? I've looked in vain for this combination, but that doesn't mean it's not out there.

Thanks!


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## schnurrp

That's an interesting one and I'm inclined to agree with you RobNJ. I've never seen one like that but that isn't conclusive by any means. 

It does bring up a couple questions in my mind. Were the small and large Chistopol komandirskies being made at the same time? And were the small Chistopols still being made in 1985? All of Michele's examples are referenced "'70s". 

I wouldn't buy it without hearing from Shadow, amil, etc.!


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## RobNJ

Thanks, and good question about the case taken in itself. A collective "elements timeline" (not only whole watches, but movements, cases, etc.) would be an interesting enterprise some time. Yeah, I know, I'll get right on that.


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## ThePriest

Hey guys looking for thoughts on this, just bought it for $55, looks to be a 2614.2h movement (solid poljot from what I read) is the dial/ face and casing original or Franken? Worth $55?














Just wondering if it is in fact and all original ussr poljot, which is what it was described to me as.


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## schnurrp

I believe this is the Laco one we usually see that's made by Poljot. The origin of yours is ??? so that makes it perfect to mod, in my opinion.


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## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I believe this is the Laco one we usually see that's made by Poljot. The origin of yours is ??? so that makes it perfect to mod, in my opinion.


Pardon me but this is of course the original Uhr B Laco not the Aviator Poljot one. I can't find a picture of it right now but it's very similar...oh here's one:


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## ThePriest

Ok so with the different hands and such mine isn't actually a true poljot or uhr-b? It's a Franken then? Or is it, I just haven't found the right model pictures yet?


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## schnurrp

Who knows how yours came about but one thing I'm fairly sure of, it didn't leave the Poljot factory that way although it's not a bad looking construction. Here's another Poljot "aviator" from ebay: Russian Watch POLJOT Aviator | eBay that looks more like yours....


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## lucky watch

Hi, I need help with this Raketa. I only have this one picture. It is described as 1957 made to celebrate Yuri Gagarin's orbit in Sputnik.
Do you think this is true or false? Thanks in advance.


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## Ham2

lucky watch said:


> Hi, I need help with this Raketa. I only have this one picture. It is described as 1957 made to celebrate Yuri Gagarin's orbit in Sputnik.
> Do you think this is true or false? Thanks in advance.


False. I have seen that dial refered to as the wind rose and I believe dates to around the 80/90s.


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## schnurrp

Ham2 said:


> False. I have seen that dial refered to as the wind rose and I believe dates to around the 80/90s.


I'll second that...


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## wristies

I've just kicked off my Russian watch collection after a few years of wanting to. I picked a Vostok on ebay which should be coming over my way now. The ad said 2209, but the back of the watch is stamped with 2409A, so until it's here I can't be certain what's inside it. I guess there's no other way to tell? Jewels no's? Dating it is my next issue, though I'm still reading through the massive resource of WUS to find info. This place is rather big, _non_?


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## sq100

I can't tell you anything about the specifics of this watch. But as the 2209 movement is 18 jewels and the 2409 is 17 jewels it should have the 2209 to comply with the dial. That could mean a swapped caseback.


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## schnurrp

sq100 said:


> I can't tell you anything about the specifics of this watch. But as the 2209 movement is 18 jewels and the 2409 is 17 jewels it should have the 2209 to comply with the dial. That could mean a swapped caseback.


No telling...could be a swapped dial. Hands are what you'd expect for a 2209 of the time. I'm surprised the casebacks are interchangeable but. I'd say early to mid '70s.

Talking about a massive resource you could search Mark Gordon's online collection for one or similar which he's made a judgement about date, usually to the decade. There are 15 pages of Vostoks: Welcome to USSR Time!

Welcome to the forum, wristies!


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## Skv

Hi all,

I recently bought a Komandirskie watch on Ebay, but I have the feeling that it is not original (although the seller claims otherwise).

It is the following watch: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/141022245090?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_500wt_1184

Could any one of you experts give me some feedback on this?

(sorry I am not able to copy pictures from Ebay to include them in this post)


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## schnurrp

Jelle86 said:


> I recently bought a Komandirskie watch on Ebay, but I have the feeling that it is not original (although the seller claims otherwise).


Don't they always?

Dial is at least plausible but case is wrong and the hour hand doesn't seem to belong. I didn't take the time to find the exact one but this one from Michele's collection is close. It could be a 2'oclock crown movement dial that's been glued to the movement in the 3'oclock position, too. Franken, in my opinion. What say you others?


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## RobNJ

The case is not a Vostok case, and I think that's enough. But anyway...

The dial is indeed plausible, with aged lume that might involve some effort to fake. I can't tell if there is some roughness at the edge of the dial around the date window, which might imply a cutout of some sort.

Finally, though not dispositive, the hands bother me a bit, and seem likely replacements. First, because the lume window on the hour hand is short, rather than the longer Vostok "old style." Second, and this is more speculative, because gold hands don't really look right here - Vostok often goes black on white. I could be wrong here, obviously, but it was a first reaction.


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## schnurrp

RobNJ said:


> gold hands don't really look right here - Vostok often goes black on white. I could be wrong here, obviously, but it was a first reaction.


Good pick up on the hands but Michele's example has the gold hands so....

Dial has the correctly printed "Zakaz...." phrase which fakers seem to never get right.


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## Skv

RobNJ said:


> The case is not a Vostok case, and I think that's enough. But anyway...
> 
> The dial is indeed plausible, with aged lume that might involve some effort to fake. I can't tell if there is some roughness at the edge of the dial around the date window, which might imply a cutout of some sort.
> 
> Finally, though not dispositive, the hands bother me a bit, and seem likely replacements. First, because the lume window on the hour hand is short, rather than the longer Vostok "old style." Second, and this is more speculative, because gold hands don't really look right here - Vostok often goes black on white. I could be wrong here, obviously, but it was a first reaction.


There is some roughness indeed:








High res:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6463787/Fok/20130810_213920.jpg

What exactly does this imply? I found that the lume on the face does not work (anymore). As you can see, the bottom part of the words on the bottom (CCCP etc) seems to be partially covered.


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## RobNJ

Sometimes the phrase at the bottom is partially obscured even on watches that are beyond reproach, and the lume not working is probably a good sign - if it is original to pre-1992, it shouldn't work (the phosphorescent paint loses its potency). The one thing we are all saying without question is that the case is not a normal case for this type of watch. So one guess would be that, while basically of the correct dimensions, the new case required some fractional adjustment to the dial with a file or something. Or it could just be wear and tear.

Anyway, beyond that the dial, again, looks pretty good. If you want to see a watch that looks a lot like yours (but with a different case and bezel), look about halfway down on this page (Michele's):

Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website

That too has a 3 o'clock crown, which is also a good sign for the integrity of your dial feet.


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## wristies

schnurrp said:


> No telling...could be a swapped dial. Hands are what you'd expect for a 2209 of the time. I'm surprised the casebacks are interchangeable but. I'd say early to mid '70s.
> 
> Talking about a massive resource you could search Mark Gordon's online collection for one or similar which he's made a judgement about date, usually to the decade. There are 15 pages of Vostoks: Welcome to USSR Time!
> 
> Welcome to the forum, wristies!


Thanks for the link schnurrp, looks like I'll be doing some reading tonight.


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## Gravit

Gagarin did not orbit in Sputnik. Sputnik was a small satellite the size of a basket ball.


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## lucky watch

I have taken this on a trade. Any ideas what I have? Some say Vostok some say Slava. I think it says sargeant on the dial. I do not have the watch yet only this picture. Thanks.


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## schnurrp

I don't collect these but the dial/case is plausible in my opinion. Here's a similar one in Michele's collection but it's not a "Sergeant" and it's from the "Zakaz.." store. I'd say worth looking into and a good chance it's authentic.


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## Skv

RobNJ said:


> Sometimes the phrase at the bottom is partially obscured even on watches that are beyond reproach, and the lume not working is probably a good sign - if it is original to pre-1992, it shouldn't work (the phosphorescent paint loses its potency). The one thing we are all saying without question is that the case is not a normal case for this type of watch. So one guess would be that, while basically of the correct dimensions, the new case required some fractional adjustment to the dial with a file or something. Or it could just be wear and tear.
> 
> Anyway, beyond that the dial, again, looks pretty good. If you want to see a watch that looks a lot like yours (but with a different case and bezel), look about halfway down on this page (Michele's):
> 
> Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website
> 
> That too has a 3 o'clock crown, which is also a good sign for the integrity of your dial feet.


Thank you so much for your helpl. I feel slightly relieved that it's not a rip-off, but that it is rather the case that is not original. I shall be more alert when participating in future Ebay auctions. Cheers!


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## schnurrp

What say you about this one?



















Vintage POLJOT Manual Wind Men's Watch | eBay


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## RobNJ

schnurrp said:


> What say you about this one?
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> Vintage POLJOT Manual Wind Men's Watch | eBay


Half worth it for the curiosity value. I'm looking at the textures on the dial and wondering what that was originally.


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## schnurrp

I believe there was a Poljot dial with that texture made. Also the "POLJOT" looks correct but I've never seen "WATERPROOF" printed on the dial like that and certainly not "MADE IN IRAQ". I think it's just strange enough to be something other than a fake (what would be the motive?) but I have no idea. I think I'll ask for a movement picture and it should have a stolichnie in my opinion.


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## drbobguy

I appeal to the hivemind in your wisdom of the Sturmanskie variations.

This one supposedly was made in 2005, any thoughts? There are later ones I see from 2010-2012 presumably made by Volmax that are going for much higher prices. Is this a Poljot creation? Is there a reason for the higher prices on the newer ones when they are all NOS, besides the fact that the 2005 one will need a service ASAP?

This older one has 18mm lugs, the newer one is 20mm.

















Here's one of the supposedly newer ones:


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## stadiou

This I know nothing about - is it what it purports to be before I bid on it ?
RUSSIAN SPACE GAGARIN WATCH VOSTOK USSR SOVIET CCCP COSMOS BOCTOK 1971 | eBay


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## schnurrp

Well it does have a space theme with the rocket Vostok logo which is authentic, in my opinion, but it had nothing to do with Gagarin and I'm not sure where "COSMOS" enters in and it is soviet and the date looks right. The crown appears to have been replaced and it should have a Vostok 2209 movement which is not shown, of course. Not a bad deal at that price, in my opinion.


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## alien2108

Hello all!

Since it will be my birthday soon I am about to buy myself original Gagarin Shturmanskie. Now I have read many threads as for example: 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/spotting-original-15-jewel-sturmanskie-tammo-23013.html

and found following from I think reputable seller:
RARE GAGARIN SHTURMANSKIE 4Q-54 KIROVSKIE PILOT WATCH STOP-SECOND SOVIET 1MCHZ | eBay

BUT there are differences...Date code is 04/54 but it should be up to 04/53 and the minute+hour hands are different than Tammo guide. Is this a franken version? Then I think it is not worth the price....

Thank you for your help guys!


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## sq100

Looks like a fake dial to me.


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## Ham2

The hour and minute hands are wrong; not even correct for the post 1953 type 2 hands. The dial looks a bit off. The lack of the original radium paint on the numbers and the very bright red star and 12 indice adds to the dial being suspicious (it is supposedly a 60 year old dial after all); restored perhaps?


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## Martins.

alien2108 said:


> Hello all!
> 
> Since it will be my birthday soon I am about to buy myself original Gagarin Shturmanskie. Now I have read many threads as for example:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/spotting-original-15-jewel-sturmanskie-tammo-23013.html
> 
> and found following from I think reputable seller:
> RARE GAGARIN SHTURMANSKIE 4Q-54 KIROVSKIE PILOT WATCH STOP-SECOND SOVIET 1MCHZ | eBay
> 
> BUT there are differences...Date code is 04/54 but it should be up to 04/53 and the minute+hour hands are different than Tammo guide. Is this a franken version? Then I think it is not worth the price....
> 
> Thank you for your help guys!


Dial printred false and moviment Sportivnie


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## schnurrp

You would expect a dial in that good condition would have some color/lume left on the numbers which look like they've been colored in quickly with a #2 pencil and very uniformly. Pretty sophisticated "aging" of the dial itself but it doesn't add up in my opinion. Hands are obviously wrong, those are the skinny sportivnie ones, the second hand looks okay but that hand was used on more than one watch of the time.

I'm not buying it.


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## OCDood

schnurrp said:


> You would expect a dial in that good condition would have some color/lume left on the numbers which look like they've been colored in quickly with a #2 pencil and very uniformly.


LMAO! That's what I thought when I saw it, that somebody had colored them in with a pencil. :-d


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## Ham2

This seller has had a few sturmanskies of questionable authenticity of late


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## alien2108

Thank you all! Will skip it and search goes on or maybe I'll just go for new 50th Anniversary edition altogether...


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## Skv

What are your thoughts on this watch? It definately feels legit, but I could not find this dial anywhere else on the web. And it does not say the amount of jewels and country of origin on the dial (which is displayed on all my other Vostok watches). Any thoughts?


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## schnurrp

Legit in my opinion, from the transitional time between USSR and Russia when country of origin was not displayed and a wide variety of dials were produced. Hands are a little suspect but I lean toward authentic since the lume matches the lume hour dots.

I just learned from your other post that this is an "admiralskie" which is usually a komandirskie so a little doubt creeps in about a dial swap but I still lean toward authentic. I now think hands are definitely authentic for that dial. A picture of the back and movement would be helpful and a determination of the case material (ss vs. brass).

Jury has returned to their room and are lingering....


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## liahim

2809 никогда в таком оформлении не был. Только один нюанс эту котлету хотелось бы посмотреть с обратной сторлоны.


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## RobNJ

The dial itself is good, I think, but the bezel (with lume) seems of the Amphibia type. Liahim also has his doubts, though I'm missing the nuance as to why (thanks, Google translate!) Indeed, let's see the back.


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## Skv

Here you go, guys!


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## schnurrp

Jury is returning and....it's not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it's a fake, therefore the jury finds it to be an authentic variation of a Vostok amphibian from a turbulent era. 

As an example, I once owned an amphibian in that case with that bezel that had the desert storm dial with date window, amphibian arrow handset with lume ball second hand and 2414 movement. It was in mint condition and gave the appearance of having never had a band installed, and the back was very tightly in place.


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## Skv

Thank you for that conclusion, jury! It runs +4 sec a day, so I think I bought value for money (USD 25 incl shipping)!


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## billbrasky

Ham2 said:


> This seller has had a few sturmanskies of questionable authenticity of late


*deleted*


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## billbrasky

alien2108 said:


> Thank you all! Will skip it and search goes on or maybe I'll just go for new 50th Anniversary edition altogether...


I wouldn't give up if you really want one. An authentic 15J Gagarin is not an easy watch to buy and takes some patience. I was in your same position about 10 months ago. I was looking for one for about 6 months that was in acceptable condition and finally got the opportunity.

Unless you get really lucky though you will most likely have to settle for one with a dial that is in worse condition, or you could just wait much longer and spend more money.


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## Nick1984

Hello to everybody,
I fell in love for Old time Vostok and I looked around and bought my first Komandirskie 'zakaz mo cccp'.
I was looking for soviet era watch (before 90s), I know that the "zakaz mo cccp" indication doesn't mean anything regarding quality but for me it was much more something that give an exotic taste.
I'd like to have your opinion about it.
Thank you for your time in advance


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## bryan123456

Jelle86 said:


> What are your thoughts on this watch? It definately feels legit, but I could not find this dial anywhere else on the web. And it does not say the amount of jewels and country of origin on the dial (which is displayed on all my other Vostok watches). Any thoughts?


Here's a link to photo / details of my copy of this watch. There are details in the posting to where you can verify the provenance 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/show-your-amphibias-491664-94.html#post6491678


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## Nick1984

Nick1984 said:


> Hello to everybody,
> I fell in love for Old time Vostok and I looked around and bought my first Komandirskie 'zakaz mo cccp'.
> I was looking for soviet era watch (before 90s), I know that the "zakaz mo cccp" indication doesn't mean anything regarding quality but for me it was much more something that give an exotic taste.
> I'd like to have your opinion about it.
> Thank you for your time in advance
> View attachment 1196134


Can anyone suggest me some good and complete references to solve the doubt?


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## schnurrp

Nick1984 said:


> Can anyone suggest me some good and complete references to solve the doubt?


That's a pretty common type 34 komandirskie recognized by many on this forum I'm sure and if there was a problem from what you've shown it would have been pointed out. However if you'd like to do your own research in the database, notice the watch pictured on the first page of the section for the type 34 komandirskie: http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=242&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.watchuseek.com%2Ff10%2Fvostok-classification-database-draft-424915-4.html%23post3173101&v=1&libid=1326156480229&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.periandtang.com%2Fpdfs%2Fkomandirskie.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.watchuseek.com%2Ff10%2Fvostok-classification-database-draft-424915.html&title=Vostok%20classification%20database%20draft%20-%20Page%204&txt=download%20link&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_132615656664633

The database was compiled by members of this forum.

Here's a blue dialed variation from Mark Gordon's collection: Welcome to USSR Time!









And this one from Michele's collection: Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website


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## Nick1984

My doubt is that mine has the dial of the fisrt version and the bezel of the second


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## schnurrp

Nick1984 said:


> My doubt is that mine has the dial of the fisrt version and the bezel of the second


Your posted picture appeared to show a watch with a black dial very similar to the one I posted above from michele's collection. The one with the blue dial and the different bezel I would consider to be an authentic variation of basically the same watch. I don't think you have anything to worry about.


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## phd

billbrasky said:


> Fialken is a noted frankenmiester if I'm not mistaken.


If this is "Fialkin77" from eBay, I've bought many watches from him and have not noticed any frankens, at least amongst the Raketas he sells (I don't know enough about other brands to comment). He and Sovieterawatch (Roman) are two of my favourite and, in my opinion, most reliable sellers* and no, I'm not affiliated to either of them.

*Sovieterawatch has started selling some watches with repainted dials, but these are always advertised as "Original Dial Restored".

Paul


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## billbrasky

phd said:


> If this is "Fialkin77" from eBay, I've bought many watches from him and have not noticed any frankens, at least amongst the Raketas he sells (I don't know enough about other brands to comment). He and Sovieterawatch (Roman) are two of my favourite and, in my opinion, most reliable sellers* and no, I'm not affiliated to either of them.
> 
> *Sovieterawatch has started selling some watches with repainted dials, but these are always advertised as "Original Dial Restored".
> 
> Paul


Seems like I was indeed mistaken. My apologies to Fialken77. After going back and looking at his stock (what I should have done before posting) it does seem mostly legit, with some questionable ones here and there. I swear there was another Ukrainian seller with a very similar name whose auctions were just riddled with frankens from beginning to end. I must have confused them.

I agree about Roman. I've bought many a watch from him and can't recommend him enough.


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## schnurrp

*

FULL ORIGINAL, ORIGINAL DIAL RESTORED*.











should read: *FULL ORIGINAL, ORIGINAL DIAL RESTORED and hands replaced.

*


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## Skv

bryan123456 said:


> Here's a link to photo / details of my copy of this watch. There are details in the posting to where you can verify the provenance
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/show-your-amphibias-491664-94.html#post6491678


Are you sure yours is original?

The hands seem to be wrong to me (on amphibans the minute hand is not lumed all the way to the end afaik). Anyway, mine has a different set of hands.


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## bryan123456

Jelle86 said:


> Are you sure yours is original?
> 
> The hands seem to be wrong to me (on amphibans the minute hand is not lumed all the way to the end afaik). Anyway, mine has a different set of hands.


Yup. If you look at the Levenberg catalogue No4 it's in there with those hands. I also have later models with the same luming (if you can call it lume: lumeish may be more appropriate for these Vostoks).


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## emoscambio

bryan123456 said:


> Yup. If you look at the Levenberg catalogue No4 it's in there with those hands. I also have later models with the same luming (if you can call it lume: lumeish may be more appropriate for these Vostoks).


As far as I know JL's book is not a legitimous catalogue of any authority as to an official genuineness, but a self-published list of items owned with some background info. Only official catalogues of official manufacturers are... official.


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## bryan123456

emoscambio said:


> As far as I know JL's book is not a legitimous catalogue of any authority as to an official genuineness, but a self-published list of items owned with some background info. Only official catalogues of official manufacturers are... official.


That is absolutely and tautologically correct. However, there were periods in Vostok's history where what the factory produced and what was in any catalogue were at variance. In particular the period around and following the fall of 'the wall' and the demise of the USSR. So an official 'catalogue' is sometimes no accurate record.

JLs catalogues, like many of the major collections published on the web by extremely knowledgeable authoritative owners (who also possess no official authority), are good indicators. The face / hand /case /movement combination whilst not being one of the most common, is neither one of the most rare. My major concern when I got the watch was not the front but the case back and someone verified that it was commensurate with the movement and JL dates.


----------



## GuessWho

Figured this thread could use a bump...

Looking at joining the 2209 club finally, anyone see something off about this one?







Those hands do not look right to me, from the examples I have seen they should be gold and not white. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## schnurrp

GuessWho said:


> Figured this thread could use a bump...
> 
> Looking at joining the 2209 club finally, anyone see something off about this one?
> View attachment 1219889
> 
> Those hands do not look right to me, from the examples I have seen they should be gold and not white. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong.


Looks good to me GuessWho, those are typical Luch hands which are actually gold with white center, similar to hour bars.


----------



## davout06

Hi, all. I made my first purchase of a vintage Soviet era watch last weekend. I was afraid it might be a redial, but after comparing it to the one on Michele's site, it seems like it might be genuine (though remarkably preserved). Also, I could not find this type of redial on any of the obvious websites selling redials. That said, I do know that the seconds hand has been replaced with an incorrect one. Here's the watch: 
Original Russian USSR Wristwatch Rodina Kirovskie 1 MCHZ Im Kirova POLJOT | eBay

The photos are not great. Your thoughts?


----------



## JRMTactical

davout06 said:


> Hi, all. I made my first purchase of a vintage Soviet era watch last weekend. I was afraid it might be a redial, but after comparing it to the one on Michele's site, it seems like it might be genuine (though remarkably preserved). Also, I could not find this type of redial on any of the obvious websites selling redials. That said, I do know that the seconds hand has been replaced with an incorrect one. Here's the watch:
> Original Russian USSR Wristwatch Rodina Kirovskie 1 MCHZ Im Kirova POLJOT | eBay
> 
> The photos are not great. Your thoughts?


You need way more of an expert than I am.....I will say that I've seen several Rodina's with different seconds hands. Whether or not they are original (or whether yours is or not) I can't answer even to my own satisfaction. I purchased a Rodina a week or so ago....I knew it was original based on the fact it matched two versions I saw in 2 collections. I think I looked at the one you bought as I searched through the Rodina's for sale. I got mine for like $53 IIRC.


----------



## mendozer

I know nothing about Rodinas. But that dial is ridiculously clean. Repainted? 

Experts??


----------



## schnurrp

mendozer said:


> I know nothing about Rodinas. But that dial is ridiculously clean. Repainted?
> 
> Experts??


Not likely. Very difficult to "paint" those gold numbers like that and a person would go crazy painting that seconds scale. Identical to Michele's which has the correct second hand but is not in as good condition.

Both are missing the characteristic "acorn" crown, in my opinion.


----------



## davout06

Thanks everyone for your comments. This variety of Rodina seems pretty hard to find; I looked high and low (even on Russian-language watch forums!) and only found Michele's for comparison. Yes, Schnurrp, I think you are right about the crowns being replaced, too.


----------



## davout06

Does this Vostok Precision look legit to you? I have seen many lately, and this is the only one I think might be legit--EXCEPT for the missing factory hallmark on the movement....

RARE Old Original Russian USSR Wristwatch VOSTOK 2809 Precision AU20 Gilt Case | eBay


----------



## schnurrp

That one looks good/authentic except for possibly the gear train bridge which has the small jewels but no logo. I've never seen one like that but maybe someone else has. Mid-'60s, in my opinion.


----------



## Arizone

So interesting. It has a flat crown, and flat Komandirskie caseback. This seems to be in line with at least one of Michele's watches, aside from the beautiful unique green dial.


----------



## emoscambio

mendozer said:


> I know nothing about Rodinas. But that dial is ridiculously clean. Repainted?
> 
> Experts??


Or just new?


----------



## davout06

I just received the Rodina in the mail today. The dial is really a mystery; certain aspects look old, but still seems really too nice to be old. I have looked around a lot for a new dial of this type, but cannot find one. I will say that most of the new dials of other types that I have seen have aspects that appear new--especially within the fonts used. In particular, the very small fine fonts on original dials are usually thicker and a little bit crude on the new dials. The fonts on this watch dial appear very neat, and consistent with what I see on Michele's example. At the same time, the case has a lot of scratches and a few dings, such that I would be surprised that the dial is the one that came with this case. I am scratching my head, but if I had to place a wager, I would probably bet on a new dial that is very, very well done (but I would hope that I am wrong!).


----------



## drbobguy

Anyone have advice on this 3133 Sturmanskie? I don't know all the variations. This is a 2000's creation according to the seller. Is it Volmax? Poljot? How faithful is it to the Soviet version?


----------



## putra3007

drbobguy said:


> Anyone have advice on this 3133 Sturmanskie? I don't know all the variations. This is a 2000's creation according to the seller. Is it Volmax? Poljot? How faithful is it to the Soviet version?


Polmax certainly can provide the details. I consulted him too before I got mine from Volmax. Happy shopping though.


----------



## RobNJ

I can't find fault with this from an authenticity point of view, but wouldn't mind a second look. The movement seems right for 1951 (including the Pobeda/star ratchet wheel), and in fact the whole package is pretty close to Mark Gordon's 0501, minus the painting of course. Except for the hands - I'm not sure if these distinctive Red 12 hands are free variants with other options. Thoughts?

















Oh, the caseback is unremarkable - snap on, undecorated, flattish rather than continuously domed.


----------



## nathancom

I looked and this new poljot appears to look ok, no movement info though:
Poljot Aerowave Flieger B Watch | eBay


----------



## Sono21

A yellow amphibian? Is this legit?


----------



## schnurrp

Yes...very desirable dial and bezel combination.


----------



## schnurrp

RobNJ said:


> I can't find fault with this from an authenticity point of view, but wouldn't mind a second look. The movement seems right for 1951 (including the Pobeda/star ratchet wheel), and in fact the whole package is pretty close to Mark Gordon's 0501, minus the painting of course. Except for the hands - I'm not sure if these distinctive Red 12 hands are free variants with other options. Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 1225567
> 
> 
> View attachment 1225568
> 
> 
> Oh, the caseback is unremarkable - snap on, undecorated, flattish rather than continuously domed.


Looks good to me although I'm no expert. Here's a 1947 model from Mark Gordon compared:










If it's authentic it's in as good a shape as I've ever seen for this watch.


----------



## UncleVania

Hey guys, thanks so much for this thread, extremely helpful! I'm a newbie with CCCP watches (or watches in general for that matter...). Any ideas about this one?

Soviet wristwatch MOLNIYA ( MOLNIJA).Vietcong. Dvina. Military stile. | eBay

Cheers!! Keep up the amazing work!


----------



## heimdalg

Is a fantasy watch.


----------



## tmr5555

Got it recently from the bay: 








Never seen this dial / hands combo before.
Chrome plated case, 5 digit serial beginning with "0", no hacking.
paid 200 bucks.

Would love to know more about it.

Is it civilian or military?
Seller said it was made in the early 90's...

Edit: movement shot:


----------



## schnurrp

Appears to be a civilian replica or homage of the military sturmanskie chronograph from soviet days. This one probably from late '90s to early '00s. A movement shot would be helpful.

(Could be early '90s)


----------



## GuessWho

Another 2209 I am looking at, the dial is a little dirty but I have seen this blue dial before (although the chapter ring was different), what do you guys think?


----------



## RobNJ

So I'm hesitating on the Pobeda I posted a page or so ago. After further reading, it seems that there is something of a consensus that the "exterior numbers" sub-second dials (as on the example I showed) were produced with the earlier, late 1940s versions of the watch. See here for what I'm talking about: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/pobeda-red-12-a-841522.html

I'd love to be told I'm wrong, or be shown a confirming example, but I'm now guessing it is a really nice 1940s dial mated to a really nice (assuming functional) 1951 movement. Nothing wrong with that, at the right price...but I would know, and that's the rub.

As for the Luch, GuessWho, it seems good to me. I think I've seen that design in maroon, also; the hand set can be seen on other Luch 2209s and looks right for this as well. Check this out: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/wruw-thursday-18th-april-2013-a-849487-4.html


----------



## schnurrp

RobNJ said:


> So I'm hesitating on the Pobeda I posted a page or so ago. After further reading, it seems that there is something of a consensus that the "exterior numbers" sub-second dials (as on the example I showed) were produced with the earlier, late 1940s versions of the watch. See here for what I'm talking about: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/pobeda-red-12-a-841522.html
> 
> I'd love to be told I'm wrong, or be shown a confirming example, but I'm now guessing it is a really nice 1940s dial mated to a really nice (assuming functional) 1951 movement. Nothing wrong with that, at the right price...but I would know, and that's the rub.
> 
> As for the Luch, GuessWho, it seems good to me. I think I've seen that design in maroon, also; the hand set can be seen on other Luch 2209s and looks right for this as well. Check this out: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/wruw-thursday-18th-april-2013-a-849487-4.html


If you like small '50s or older soviet watches you have to have a Pobeda Red 12 and if the price is right even if the movement isn't I'd jump all over it just because of the condition. A late 40s dial in that condition I assume is very hard to find.


----------



## RobNJ

Yeah...it _is_ kinda pretty. It is a bit dear now but I'll see if an offer is in the cards.


----------



## Sono21

Is the second hand suspect? Movement is a SU 2234


----------



## schnurrp

No, that's the right one and right movement.


----------



## putra3007

Sono21 said:


> Is the second hand suspect? Movement is a SU 2234
> View attachment 1230690


IMO looks good to me. Am bidding for this one on ebay. The second hand seems to be the same.









The experts here should be able to confirm this.


----------



## putra3007

schnurrp said:


> No, that's the right one and right movement.


Thanks schnurrp for the confirmation. Will continue my bidding, price going up!!


----------



## blackdot

Hoping to make this little Zero my first Russian (and mechanical) watch!

Is it all original and in decent shape?



















Photos are courtesy of the seller, who seems to have a sound reputation.


----------



## RobNJ

Sono21 said:


> Is the second hand suspect? Movement is a SU 2234
> View attachment 1230690


The second hand shape and movement are right, but I'm a bit worried about the blue chapter ring/chrome case being combined with the black dial with gold indices and gold hands. There is an all blue version (w/blue and chrome dial and chrome hands) out there, I know. I'm at work and don't really have all my research tools in front of me, but I wonder if someone else could comment.


----------



## tmr5555

schnurrp said:


> Appears to be a civilian replica or homage of the military sturmanskie chronograph from soviet days. This one probably from late '90s to early '00s. A movement shot would be helpful.
> 
> (Could be early '90s)


Follow up on the previous post:
I was able to locate the model in the 1996 Poljot catalogue:









So a Poljot "reissue" replica at worst i guess.
Here's my watch again for comparison:


----------



## Perdendosi

blackdot said:


> Hoping to make this little Zero my first Russian (and mechanical) watch!
> 
> Is it all original and in decent shape?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photos are courtesy of the seller, who seems to have a sound reputation.


I don't want this one to be missed. I would say yes, though it's not the most common case, so don't quote me on it. The movement looks in awfully good shape -- almost too good, but you might have a really good specimen on your hands.

Others might chime in about the case authenticity.


----------



## schnurrp

Perdendosi said:


> I don't want this one to be missed. I would say yes, though it's not the most common case, so don't quote me on it. The movement looks in awfully good shape -- almost too good, but you might have a really good specimen on your hands.
> 
> Others might chime in about the case authenticity.


Here are two that have the same case, I'd say it's original.


----------



## Sono21

Are all of the zeros on the bay that have the cases with shorter lugs "frankens" or are they just a different model that Raketa produced?
Edit: added picture


----------



## schnurrp

Sono21 said:


> Are all of the zeros on the bay that have the cases with shorter lugs "frankens" or are they just a different model that Raketa produced?
> Edit: added picture
> View attachment 1231506


As I understand it there are two sizes with two different cases but both are authentic watches.


----------



## wolf3d

Hello,
it's the first time I bought a watch from Ebay and not a local seller, so I thought I would like to be sure everything is ok with it, even though I paid only 50$ for this nice Sputnik


----------



## schnurrp

wolf3d said:


> Hello,
> it's the first time I bought a watch from Ebay and not a local seller, so I thought I would like to be sure everything is ok with it, even though I paid only 50$ for this nice Sputnik
> 
> View attachment 1240301
> 
> 
> View attachment 1240302
> 
> 
> View attachment 1240303


Compared to Mark Gordon's:

















Looks pretty good to me, some condition problems but authentic I would say.


----------



## slpslp

Anyone can identify this?


----------



## heimdalg

A common Poljot 2614.2H probably made in the 80s. Looks good except for hands which look replaced or repainted.
Or more certain lumed/relumed.


----------



## slpslp

heimdalg said:


> A common Poljot 2614.2H probably made in the 80s. Looks good except for hands which look replaced or repainted.
> Or more certain lumed/relumed.


Thanks for your insight!


----------



## davout06

I'm looking at the following schturmanskie, and while most everything matches Tammo's specs, there are a couple that don't:

1 - the ratchet wheel has lettering
2 - the bridge has no date
3 - the crown is not a match
4 - hands appear to be repainted

While I would mark these down as replacements, I see some sites that say these were made into circa 1960. If that is so, are there some that might have no date, that were struck after 4-54? The lettering on the ratchet wheel is consistent with c. 1955-60 watches at 1 MChZ.

Any thoughts from those more knowledgeable? Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

Have a look here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/spotting-original-15-jewel-sturmanskie-tammo-23013.html


----------



## davout06

Thanks, but that's the thread I referred to (Tammo's specs). The only inconsistencies are the non-dated bridge, the lettering on the ratchet wheel, and the crown. Are these replacements, or is this a 15 jeweled version from when there were no dates on the bridge? Did they not make 15 jewel version after 4-53? Or, were there only the 17 jewel version after that date?


----------



## dbadoo4

Hello to All, 
This is my first post.
Question: I have a gold colored watch with PAKETA marked on the face below the twelve oclock postion, trying to determine if it is or isn't one. The works: On the large gear visible beside the bridge there is a stamp with the PAKETA crown and the number 26690.














What do you think? or What is it?
Thanks for looking


----------



## weaser

Hello All...

Can anyone clarify the authenticity of this dial? I'm assuming its' a franken. However, I do get surprised from time to time and possessing anything rare is always exciting thus I thought I would reach out to more informed minds than my own. Any ideas?

Thank you,
Robert


----------



## eskamobob1

i am by no means an expert, but i dont believe that there were any black dials actualy labeled as "strela"... also, the numeral 12 and 6 is unique to the white dials before the 80s, and the lume on the black dials was always that blue-green color from what i have found... again, im no expert, so get a second opinion, but i have been looking for a 3017 poljot black dial for about 2 years and this is what i recall


----------



## Timepiece Tenderfoot

weaser said:


> View attachment 1259096


I have seen really good Franken dials, this is not one of them.


----------



## Perdendosi

Redial Sputnik? It's way too nice looking to be real, yes?


----------



## heimdalg

Yes it is also my opinion that it is so beautiful. I didn't see such a dial at the original watch.


----------



## eskamobob1

I am curriously about this watch... i have not seen a poljot 3017 like it before, but it does look similar to one of the strela reissues so i cant quite concude if its a crazy franken, or a weird design

Sekonda Strela 3017 Cronografo Ruota A Colonne Ottime Condizioni 36 4 mm Raro | eBay


----------



## Ham2

It is a 3017 Sekonda "strela" but the sweep second hand is a replacement. The hour and minute hands are usually seen on the classic white dialed Strelas; this dial is usually seen paired with paddle hands, though I have seen quite a few of that dial style paired with the gold baton hands and am curious if the black dial with baton hands is a genuine model.


----------



## schnurrp

From 1974 catalog...I hope you can see the paddle hands and I'm sorry you can't see the circle second hand both of which are the authentic items, no batons.


----------



## weaser

Thanks to all who responded. I suspected this was a franken dial but even more certain now.
Thank you,
Robert


----------



## Shapi22

I was wondering if anyone has seen one of these before...







Is this some kind of special edition or is it just fantasy?


----------



## JRMTactical

Shapi22 said:


> I was wondering if anyone has seen one of these before...
> View attachment 1262062
> 
> Is this some kind of special edition or is it just fantasy?


Who knows, but it looks like a 2409 through that glass back.....now WHY anybody would put a see through case back is beyond me. Nothing much going on in there to see LOL


----------



## Backstreet

eskamobob1 said:


> I am curriously about this watch... i have not seen a poljot 3017 like it before, but it does look similar to one of the strela reissues so i cant quite concude if its a crazy franken, or a weird design
> 
> Sekonda Strela 3017 Cronografo Ruota A Colonne Ottime Condizioni 36 4 mm Raro | eBay





Ham2 said:


> It is a 3017 Sekonda "strela" but the sweep second hand is a replacement. The hour and minute hands are usually seen on the classic white dialed Strelas; this dial is usually seen paired with paddle hands, though I have seen quite a few of that dial style paired with the gold baton hands and am curious if the black dial with baton hands is a genuine model.


It is a franken indeed, but the dial is a genuine Sekonda -and it looks in very good shape.
The only parts which I can clearly see as non-original replacements are the crown, the central chrono and the small minute chrono hands.

In my opinion the movement is a fully original early one (even though not one of the earliest): low serial number, no "3017" marking, cyrillic font, 1st type "1Mh3" logo are all consistent to each other. Signs of ageing on it make me guess that very likely the dial had become unreadable and had therefore been substituted with a newer version (not caring about originality, as often happens). 
As far as I can judge from the pics the hour/minute/small seconds baton hands are also original and consistent with the movement.

I think that this movement should be paired with a white non-telemeter Poljot (or Sekonda) dial, the serial number should be too high for a cyrillic Strela.

And this is exactly the reason why I bought this semi-franken...
I happen to have another "wrong" 3017: a plain dial/baton hands Poljot in good original vintage contitions, currently mounted on a movement that has nothing to do with them (88xxx); purchased as "not working" for a bargain price, but the problem was a minor one and had been easily fixed. 
The black Sekonda dial should be era-correct with a 88xxx movement, just as the white Poljot dial fits on a 23xxx machine, so I only have to swap them (oh, uhm...and start a hunt for the missing parts, obviously) to have 2 "correct" watches. Am I right? 

PS: AFAIK black dials (and the identical white ones, too) only go with lume hands.


----------



## Piotrsmx

Hello,

I'm looking on the internet for a Poljot Strella chronograph. Since this is the first watch I am buying since ever I would like to know if it is real of a franken.

≥ Poljot - Horloges | Heren - Marktplaats.nl

The pictures that the seller made are not very clear and after asking if he could send me better pictures he redirected me here: Chronograph STRELA schwarz | Poljot 24

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Backstreet

It's one of the modern replicas with the 3133 movement, it's very unlikely that it can be frankenized. 
But you should ask for better quality pictures of the actual watch anyway, you can't judge its conditions from those photos.


----------



## Piotrsmx

Okay, thank you very much. I will ask for better photos.


----------



## Martins.

Hi friends!!, it seems that this movement Kirovskie have a piece that is not theirs, but it is, thought it was a piece of poljot 17??


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## schnurrp

Martins. said:


> Hi friends!!, it seems that this movement Kirovskie have a piece that is not theirs, but it is, thought it was a piece of poljot 17??
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Here's what it should look like in my opinion. The automatic mechanism and rotor are missing from this First Moscow 2415, originally found in a

First Moscow "Rodina" watch.



















Edit: At least the gear train bridge came from a 2415 as it has holes to accept the screws for the auto mech. bridge. The rest may have come from a 2409 movement....a mix of parts!


----------



## Martins.

Thank you Schnurpp,not think that has more to do with this, I do not understand is because there are inscriptions.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## slpslp

Hi all, i just ventured into the Raketa line and hooted up a big zero. NOS as claimed by seller, and on its way to me already. However another similar listing went up with the same pictures and got me thinking if this guy just make and sell "NOS". :-( 
Some shots from the listing,




















Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## GuessWho

This thread needs a bump.

So I bought a 2209 Tonneau Vostok to replace the one I currently have that is in poor condition.

It was cheap so I rushed the purchase, looking at it now I have a few concerns...

First, the crown, it is rounded instead of squared that we normally see. I can replace it with a proper crown from my current 2209, but I wonder if it could possibly be legit?







A view from the front:







And the second concern, the caseback. It is in English (although the dial is in Russian) and has '2209' stamped on it. I have seen this case-back on the model with paddle hands but not so much on this one.. Again, does it belong or is it wrong?







It also looks like the seller (or someone) has tried their hand at re-painting the bezel, I can live with that.


----------



## schnurrp

Comrade GuessWho, '83 catalog pictured all 119s shown with rounded crown, although your dial was not pictured. '83 must have been toward the end of the production. If I were you I'd prefer the rounded crown (I'll tade'ya if you want to!). Back is a problem though in my opinion. Here's what mine looks like:


----------



## GuessWho

schnurrp said:


> Comrade GuessWho, '83 catalog pictured all 119s shown with rounded crown, although your dial was not pictured. '83 must have been toward the end of the production. If I were you I'd prefer the rounded crown (I'll tade'ya if you want to!). Back is a problem though in my opinion. Here's what mine looks like:


I did see a few 2209s with this crown/caseback, none that have the same dial though. I will have to take a look at the catalog (lost it when I moved computers, downloading all 800mb again).

Here is one from Amil:







Dial, notice paddle hands and English:







And the case-back matches(again in English, which makes sense based on the dial):







This one (again from Amil) has the same hands and crown, but different dial and Russian case-back:







The caseback you posted is the same one I have on my current 2209.. I am starting to wonder if someone dropped this movement and dial (perhaps just the dial) in a 1983 export/English case? Best case would be this dial did belong in the watch and only the caseback has been replaced(I think it should only be matched with an English dial, although I could be wrong).


----------



## Ham2

Looks like the hands are replacements too. The Latin case back seems wrong with the Russian dial.


----------



## GuessWho

Ham2 said:


> Looks like the hands are replacements too. The Latin case back seems wrong with the Russian dial.


I agree about the case-back, I may replace it with the Russian caseback on my old 2209 (great, now I am considering making my own frankens:-d).

What makes you think the hands were replaced? Is it that strange red rust?


----------



## Ham2

GuessWho said:


> I agree about the case-back, I may replace it with the Russian caseback on my old 2209 (great, now I am considering making my own frankens:-d). What makes you think the hands were replaced? Is it that strange red rust?


 The lume seems grey on the indices and cream-colored on the rusty hands. It may just be the photograph though. Can you really franken a franken?


----------



## sq100

The hands look legit to me. Maybe this one got a little water/damp inside, looking at the rust on the hands and the stains on the dial. Also notice the lume dots on the dial are gone, leaving just the lume imprint.

Just to add, I wouldn't worry about the caseback too much. It's amphibian, has the 2209 marking, it just doesn't match the latin dial : big deal ;-)

Sent from my GT-N7100


----------



## hnguyen

Soviet Military Okean Chronograph POLJOT 3133 Movement | eBay

I am planning on getting this one. It does look legit for me (already checked many threads here) but I know I am not that familiar with Okeah 3133 watches. So would anybody help me with this, please? Thanks.


----------



## Ham2

hnguyen said:


> Soviet Military Okean Chronograph POLJOT 3133 Movement | eBay I am planning on getting this one. It does look legit for me (already checked many threads here) but I know I am not that familiar with Okeah 3133 watches. So would anybody help me with this, please? Thanks.


It is a franken. Though the dial is original it has been relumed at some point (that green lume is garish and doesn't match the lume on the hands. The case is chromed plated and it has a plain caseback. OKEAHs had stainless steel cases with distinctive case backs stamped with the ВМФ and anchor design. I would wait.


----------



## hnguyen

Thanks very much for your reply. I appreciate it.



Ham2 said:


> It is a franken. Though the dial is original it has been relumed at some point (that green lume is garish and doesn't match the lume on the hands. The case is chromed plated and it has a plain caseback. OKEAHs had stainless steel cases with distinctive case backs stamped with the ВМФ and anchor design. I would wait.


----------



## Lampoc

I've been offered this Strela in a trade. It's pretty obvious that the sub hands aren't original but what about the rest of the watch? The dial looks very clean for an old 3017. Does it look like a Chinese redial? Do those hour batons look a bit wide or is it just me?










Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

Lampoc said:


> I've been offered this Strela in a trade. It's pretty obvious that the sub hands aren't original but what about the rest of the watch? The dial looks very clean for an old 3017. Does it look like a Chinese redial? Do those hour batons look a bit wide or is it just me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!


Comrade Lampoc, I'm no authority on these hard-to-buy watches but there appears to be dirt and/or oxidation on the hour bars consistent with an authentic old dial.


----------



## Ham2

Lampoc said:


> I've been offered this Strela in a trade. It's pretty obvious that the sub hands aren't original but what about the rest of the watch? The dial looks very clean for an old 3017. Does it look like a Chinese redial? Do those hour batons look a bit wide or is it just me? Thanks!


That looks to be an authentic dial and hands (the subdial hands look to be correct though the wrong color - maybe from a paddle hand set.


----------



## Backstreet

Ham2 said:


> That looks to be an authentic dial and hands (the subdial hands look to be correct though the wrong color - maybe from a paddle hand set.


Totally agree.

I don't think that those Sekonda dials have ever been faked, AFAIK this is a problem only with the cyrillic Strelas.
About the surprisingly good-looking conditions, my personal theory is that watches that come from the former Eastern Block were treated with not much care because they were seen as "job instruments" (see mainly the early plain white dials), while those originally sold in Western Europe had been better used and preserved. All of this as a general speech, obviously.

A little OT for Lampoc, if I am allowed....should you decide to take that watch, just in case you wish to bring it back to originality I'd be interested in buying the small red hands for a project of mine.


----------



## Obscurax

sorry for the crosspost

I just got a Big Zero off the bay but i'm wondering if it's a franken. What do you guys think?


















I've never seen an seconds hand like this one. The picture of the ebay seller had a normal seconds hand. I'm a tad disappointed.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn MI 2S met Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Comrade Obscurax, please see below my own "Big Zero" (small edition) with same second hand:










I've never seen this hand in a catalog but also I have never seen this hand on another watch where it could be "harvested" by unscrupulous watch scientists. If an assembler was going for authenticity to fool collectors why not use the more common easily obtained second hand usually found on these watches.


----------



## Geoff Adams

Greetings to you All,

I am looking towards buying my first Russian Chrono - and this example of a Sturmanskie 3133 is exactly what I want. The seller says it was manufactured between 1971-1983. If it is for real then it is neither too expensive, nor too cheap. What I would like to know is if it is whole and genuine. If it is a good example I might have a nibble at it. If any of you experts can give me some guidance on this I will be, absolutely, in your debt!

With thanks!!!


----------



## Ham2

It is a franken.


----------



## Geoff Adams

Thank you so much Ham2, you have just saved my bacon! I am in your debt!

I will now delete it from my watch list.

What a great place this forum is!


----------



## Obscurax

schnurrp said:


> Comrade Obscurax, please see below my own "Big Zero" (small edition) with same second hand:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen this hand in a catalog but also I have never seen this hand on another watch where it could be "harvested" by unscrupulous watch scientists. If an assembler was going for authenticity to fool collectors why not use the more common easily obtained second hand usually found on these watches.


Thanks schnurrp, I feel a little relieved now by your information. I hope you are right, it's a nice to know this hand isn't some weird exception.


----------



## schnurrp

Geoff Adams said:


> Thank you so much Ham2, you have just saved my bacon! I am in your debt!
> 
> I will now delete it from my watch list.
> 
> What a great place this forum is!


Don't stop posting your questions, comrade, but if you want to do some homework, budget some quiet time and look here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html


----------



## Geoff Adams

Thank you very much Comrade Schnurrp - I certainly shall have a look at this properly, and try to start spotting some of the clues myself. I can use this as a good piece to refer to as well. However, until I'm sure of myself, I'll continue to confirm on here, and hope the kind experts will bear with me and respond. Many thanks again!!!


----------



## Yanda

Hi everybody, I am thinking about this 
Would you guys please tell me whether it is a legit one and this is a good deal?Vintage POLJOT Chronograph Strela Cal 3017 Russian Military Wrist Watch Strela | eBay


----------



## stadiou

Looks OK to me, but then I'm not an expert


----------



## Ham2

Yanda said:


> Hi everybody, I am thinking about this Would you guys please tell me whether it is a legit one and this is a good deal?Vintage POLJOT Chronograph Strela Cal 3017 Russian Military Wrist Watch Strela | eBay


 It is legit. The dial and serial number are consistent. The crown is a replacement. . A bit pricey for the overall condition.


----------



## Backstreet

I suspect it could be a half-franken. :think:

Apart from the crown, which is definitely not original, every detail of the movement is consistent to each other ("3017" marking, S/N, pentagonal factory logo) and with the case; but I am in doubt if the plain white dial (no telemeter scale) is consistent with them.
Let's forget about the S/N, but I fear that that kind of dial could more likely belong to a curved lugs case and a diamond logo movement....but it could also be a watch on the borderine between those changes in logos and cases, so don't take my word for granted until some real experts show up.

Anyway, the dial appears to be in good vintage conditions (if consistent with the movement, it should date around 1964/65) and some scratches on the glass are probably making it look worse than it actually is.
Considering the latest auction results, it could be worth seriously thinking about purchasing it...the seller even accepts a Best Offer, so the asking price can surely be lowered a little.

If other experts confirm that it's an original one, I'd definitely buy it.
Otherwise, with about 70/80 dollars it is possible to buy a 100% original NOS dial which would be period-correct for the movement. 
You'd end up with a 90% correct watch (don't forget the wrong crown), plus a nice early dial to keep as a spare for future purchases -or else you could sell it to somebody who already owns that type, but in worse conditions.

Just my 2 cents...

EDIT: I didn't see Ham's post in time, his opinion is _much_ more valuable than mine, so...... ;-)


----------



## Geoff Adams

I've done my best to check this Poljot 3133 out for authenticity against the information given in the guide thread, and from what I can see it checks out. However I've probably gone and missed something and it's a complete franken  I wonder if the experts can give me an opinion on this watch - because if it does check out as authentic, I might have a nibble at it. 

As always I am extremely grateful!

Many thanks!!!


----------



## Geoff Adams

It looks like the one on the right - in the 1992 catalogue shown in Polmax3133's guide thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/attachme...ality-poljot-3133-chronograph-dials_civil.jpg


----------



## schnurrp

It has the look of authenticity to me but I am not an authority on these, comrade Adams. I would point out, however, that the movement is for an older watch than '92 with the brass balance wheel placing it in the soviet-era (sometimes '92 qualifies) and the adjustable chrono lever (see small plate with a pin and large screw at approximately 12 o'clock of the movement picture) placing it back more likely to the early to mid '80s. I think it's an attractive dial with a more muted white lume than usual and cyrillic. Perhaps Polmax3133 (a most willing and helpful authority) will see your post and if he does I'm sure he will comment although you may have a better chance if you started a dedicated thread or sent him a pm.


----------



## Geoff Adams

Thank you my friend Schnurrp! Spotting out the minutiae of the inner workings of the movement on these watches is terribly difficult at this point in my evolution as an amateur collector for fun. The style and content of the writing in the movement seems to match up with the dial, and my uneducated eye matched up the main points of the movement with the dial and case - but that's about as far as my 'expertise' runs. And obviously I am not seeing enough!

 I'm always a bit queasy about putting up a whole thread, as I think it might bore the more experienced on here, but as there's only a little while left on the sale of this watch I might stick it up on a dedicated thread - because I don't really fancy getting burned for a more substantial sum of money. I hope others will bear with me on this


----------



## schnurrp

Geoff Adams said:


> Thank you my friend Schnurrp! Spotting out the minutiae of the inner workings of the movement on these watches is terribly difficult at this point in my evolution as an amateur collector for fun. The style and content of the writing in the movement seems to match up with the dial, and my uneducated eye matched up the main points of the movement with the dial and case - but that's about as far as my 'expertise' runs. And obviously I am not seeing enough!
> 
> I'm always a bit queasy about putting up a whole thread, as I think it might bore the more experienced on here, but as there's only a little while left on the sale of this watch I might stick it up on a dedicated thread - because I don't really fancy getting burned for a more substantial sum of money. I hope others will bear with me on this


Please, comrade, for what better reason to have a forum? Those, if any, who will be bored will be outweighed many times over by those wishing to learn, believe me.

Those two mechanical characteristics are about the extent of my expertise and fortunately they are easily seen.


----------



## Geoff Adams

Thank you so much for this kind post Comrade Schnurrp! I did put up a fresh thread on this watch and our friend Polmax3133 has been kind enough to come in and point this out as frankly, a franken. This has saved me in excess of at least £150 GBP, and keeps my powder dry for something decent which might come along. Your kind advice isalways valued and welcome - and I am grateful to you and all the experts! Hopefully I can continue to contribute to the forum with some of my more interesting purchases for which I do not need advice, for the amusement of the followers, and any 'authentication please' threads I put up will be of interest for others to learn as well. What a great space, and great community for enthusiasts this is!

Have an excellent weekend!


----------



## Lampoc

I rather like this dial but I've never seen it before plus it looks a lot newer than the rest of the watch. So... is it a real dial? An original dial in a different original case I can handle. A fake dial I can't.


----------



## schnurrp

Lampoc said:


> I rather like this dial but I've never seen it before plus it looks a lot newer than the rest of the watch. So... is it a real dial? An original dial in a different original case I can handle. A fake dial I can't.


I had never seen this dial before comrade Lampoc, until this year when it showed up and now it's relatively common. Not a good sign, I think it's fake. That seller has two others like this which also has wrong hands even for soviet komandirskie:










Also the small print is not bold enough like this one from Michele's collection:


----------



## Timepiece Tenderfoot

I'm with schnurrp on this. I don't recall seeing that dial. 
Your example has a dial and lume dots that are not yet affected by age. The hands however, show age.
The example posted by schnurrp shows Komandirskie hands on an Amfibian


----------



## hnguyen

Would anyone tell me whether this Sekonda 3017 listed on eBay here (Vintage Sekonda Chronograph POLJOT Strela Design Cal 3017 | eBay) is a good one? Thanks


----------



## Ham2

The Sekonda 3017 looks legit (dial and serial number, Latin jewel stamp are consistent) though the case is badly worn and possibly corroded in places (chrome loss on back of lugs and around case back). As Backstreet pointed out, the crown is very likely a replacement.


----------



## Backstreet

It's a good one. 
Markings and logos are ok; only wrong part is the crystal, but spares with the correct shape can be easily found on the bay.
The golden crown is also not correct...compared to the general conditions of the case, it doesn't seem consumed by use, so it's possibly a replacement taken from a Pobeda, IMHO. 
If the price doesn't rise up to the skies as it happened recently, could be a good buy.


----------



## GuessWho

Need an Pobeda expert on this one:



















Does this one get a thumbs up, or down?


----------



## Kisifer

For the 3017 Sekonda I would also like to add that there is a problem when setting the time. The stem does not stay out, so you have to have the crown pulled while you are setting the time. Maybe it's an easy fix, maybe not.


----------



## hnguyen

Kisifer said:


> For the 3017 Sekonda I would also like to add that there is a problem when setting the time. The stem does not stay out, so you have to have the crown pulled while you are setting the time. Maybe it's an easy fix, maybe not.


Yeah I noticed that but I think as long as I am still able to set time, it is not a problem to me. But well I have been outbid again...


----------



## hnguyen

It ends up being sold for $436.21 plus $23 shipping cost. I lost it at the very last second. Well, have to wait for another one then. Thanks for you guys' helps anyway. 



Backstreet said:


> It's a good one.
> Markings and logos are ok; only wrong part is the crystal, but spares with the correct shape can be easily found on the bay.
> The golden crown is also not correct...compared to the general conditions of the case, it doesn't seem consumed by use, so it's possibly a replacement taken from a Pobeda, IMHO.
> If the price doesn't rise up to the skies as it happened recently, could be a good buy.


----------



## Wouter77

hnguyen said:


> It ends up being sold for $436.21 plus $23 shipping cost. I lost it at the very last second. Well, have to wait for another one then. Thanks for you guys' helps anyway.


Bad luck there! I was watching that item as well but didn't place a bid.


----------



## Backstreet

Kisifer said:


> The stem does not stay out, so you have to have the crown pulled while you are setting the time. Maybe it's an easy fix, maybe not.


99,99% the central "leg" of the setting lever is broken. 
If I should judge by my personal experience, I'd say there must have been a mistake in the design of the part...either because it's too thin, or too weak for the strenght that is commonly used to pull the crown, but almost 50% of the watches/movements I've seen had that kind of problem. :think:

A very easy fix.......assuming that you can find a spare. :roll:


----------



## Wouter77

Hi, I've been looking at a Strela offered on eBay for the last few days. It looks like the serial number and the dial are consistent. I've seen more expensive Strela's from Russian sellers where this was not the case. Any thoughts on this one? 

Strela 3017 Chronograph All Original One Piece Early Serial Number | eBay


----------



## Ham2

Wouter77 said:


> Hi, I've been looking at a Strela offered on eBay for the last few days. It looks like the serial number and the dial are consistent. I've seen more expensive Strela's from Russian sellers where this was not the case. Any thoughts on this one?  Strela 3017 Chronograph All Original One Piece Early Serial Number | eBay


That looks pretty good. Some damage to the dial at the constant seconds sundial (oil?) and the chrono second hand looks to be slightly off center (not zeroed on the 12). The case looks to be in pretty good shape - early version with rounded lugs is consistent with the serial number and Cyrillic jewel stamp matches the dial style.


----------



## Kisifer

I wondered if this chrono hand off center is fixable?


----------



## Ham2

Kisifer said:


> I wondered if this chrono hand off center is fixable?


 easy fix


----------



## schnurrp

GuessWho said:


> Need an Pobeda expert on this one:
> View attachment 1389040
> View attachment 1389041
> View attachment 1389042
> 
> Does this one get a thumbs up, or down?


Thumbs up comrade GuessWho, an '80s model for the domestic market with the smooth 2602 movement which was mostly machine-made and therefor lacked decoration. This non-shock protected movement was found in soviet watches right up to near the fall of the Republic and was/is capable of excellent time-keeping. I seem to remember these being made at the ZIM factory but a quick search couldn't confirm this so I may be wrong. Interesting textured dial, too.


----------



## schnurrp

Geoff Adams said:


> Thank you so much for this kind post Comrade Schnurrp! I did put up a fresh thread on this watch and our friend Polmax3133 has been kind enough to come in and point this out as frankly, a franken. This has saved me in excess of at least £150 GBP, and keeps my powder dry for something decent which might come along. Your kind advice isalways valued and welcome - and I am grateful to you and all the experts! Hopefully I can continue to contribute to the forum with some of my more interesting purchases for which I do not need advice, for the amusement of the followers, and any 'authentication please' threads I put up will be of interest for others to learn as well. What a great space, and great community for enthusiasts this is!
> 
> Have an excellent weekend!


Is good to keep "dry powder" comrade Adams!


----------



## GirchyGirchy

Didn't see this thread until after I'd posted mine...oops. Thoughts? The 21-jewel 2603 movement seems unusual, I've only seen 16- and 17-j versions listed.


$_57 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr


$_58 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr


----------



## GuessWho

GirchyGirchy said:


> Didn't see this thread until after I'd posted mine...oops. Thoughts? The 21-jewel 2603 movement seems unusual, I've only seen 16- and 17-j versions listed.
> 
> $_57 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr
> 
> $_58 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr


Fantasy dial, mis-matched hands, and that movement looks to be in poor condition(possibly a franken-movement). I'd avoid that one.


----------



## schnurrp

GirchyGirchy said:


> Didn't see this thread until after I'd posted mine...oops. Thoughts? The 21-jewel 2603 movement seems unusual, I've only seen 16- and 17-j versions listed.
> 
> 
> $_57 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr
> 
> 
> $_58 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr


Comrade Girchy, I will tell you my thoughts, for me this would be a potential purchase for parts: case, movement (actually a triple shockproof 2609 Raketa baltika found in some nice watches) and holder and maybe hands but dial is definitely a fake (made to look like Vostok komandirskie) and I would be interested only at a small fraction of asking price. Lots of nice authentic examples out there at that price point.

Welcome to forum!


----------



## GirchyGirchy

I think I'll pass on it then - thanks so much!


----------



## rageandcage

Happened to come across this Vostok and this is the first time I am seeing this case/dial. Look legit? I have read that this seller is a trusted source on here.

Minty Soviet VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE Watch Black Plastic Case 17J Serviced | eBay


----------



## RobNJ

For the Vostok, I'd go with unusual but legit. There is an identical watch shown on this page: Vostok - Others (20) - Part 1 - NHT Watches


----------



## rageandcage

RobNJ said:


> For the Vostok, I'd go with unusual but legit. There is an identical watch shown on this page: Vostok - Others (20) - Part 1 - NHT Watches


Awesome, thanks! Site bookmarked


----------



## Tristancp95

VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE WOSTOK

Honestly I bought it because the dial is so bad that it's good. Probably fake, but I would just like it confirmed or not.


----------



## valter-g

I'm looking at this amphibia and it looks legit to me comparing to several ones posted here, but I'd like to ask anyway. Is the second hand replaced (shouldn't it be a red dot?).
















The machanism looks decently clean to me, what others think? But I'm concerned about the discolored round spot in the center of the dial, is that a sign of dragging hands, that wouldn't be good for working of the watch? Or is it something unimportant, considering working order of the watch?

Thanks in advance for any help!


----------



## Skv

valter-g said:


> I'm looking at this amphibia and it looks legit to me comparing to several ones posted here, but I'd like to ask anyway. Is the second hand replaced (shouldn't it be a red dot?).
> 
> View attachment 1391317
> 
> View attachment 1391319
> 
> 
> The machanism looks decently clean to me, what others think? But I'm concerned about the discolored round spot in the center of the dial, is that a sign of dragging hands, that wouldn't be good for working of the watch? Or is it something unimportant, considering working order of the watch?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help!


I thought most Amphis use the 2416b auto movement.. This is handwound, might have belonged to a komandirskie). concerning the drag in the center of the dial, this seems not alright to me. There are plenty of vostok watches around for very little money. I would skip this one.


----------



## GuessWho

Jelle86 said:


> I thought most Amphis use the 2416b auto movement.. This is handwound, might have belonged to a komandirskie). concerning the drag in the center of the dial, this seems not alright to me. There are plenty of vostok watches around for very little money. I would skip this one.


Only modern Amphibias and very late Soviet Amphibs use the 2416b auto, the 2209 is the correct caliber for this watch (only the 2414A is found in Komandirskies). The 2409 is another hand-wind movement that is common in Soviet Amphibs.

As for the watch in question, something seems wrong to me. In the first picture the crown appears to be flat on the end, and in the movement shot there is a different rounded crown. Two different watches? If the seller posted these pictures together I would be suspicious...


----------



## GuessWho

Tristancp95 said:


> VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE WOSTOK
> 
> Honestly I bought it because the dial is so bad that it's good. Probably fake, but I would just like it confirmed or not.


I think that one is legit (although that dial is certainly uncommon), and it is from a seller who is a member here!


----------



## valter-g

Jelle, Gueswho, thank you for your prompt responses! Learned something new. I think the crown is okay, the first pic is with different angle only.


----------



## sq100

Tristancp95 said:


> VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE WOSTOK
> 
> Honestly I bought it because the dial is so bad that it's good. Probably fake, but I would just like it confirmed or not.


I have one of these, it's legit.


----------



## sq100

GuessWho said:


> Only modern Amphibias and very late Soviet Amphibs use the 2416b auto, the 2209 is the correct caliber for this watch (only the 2414A is found in Komandirskies). The 2409 is another hand-wind movement that is common in Soviet Amphibs.
> 
> As for the watch in question, something seems wrong to me. In the first picture the crown appears to be flat on the end, and in the movement shot there is a different rounded crown. Two different watches? If the seller posted these pictures together I would be suspicious...


GuessWho is right, those are 2 different crowns, one rounded and one flat.


----------



## schnurrp

Ask for the round one....red second hand is okay:










But I like the silver better, comrade:


----------



## GuessWho

schnurrp said:


> Ask for the round one...


You sure love that rounded crown, eh?
I actually found the watch in question on eBay, everything looks good except that movement shot (definitely a different crown than the other pictures:rodekaart). Also it looks like the hands have been re-lumed (not a deal breaker for me, worth mentioning though).


----------



## schnurrp

GuessWho said:


> everything looks good except that movement shot (definitely a different crown than the other pictures:rodekaart). Also it looks like the hands have been re-lumed (not a deal breaker for me, worth mentioning though).


Comrade Who, noble soviet watchpreparer may have decided to make watch look "better" with more modern flat crown instead of old-fashioned round one and got confused with his pictures. I have no catalog pictures of the 119s with flat crowns although they must have started using them at some point for they exist and no other watch would use them. I consider the round ones more authentic and love to see them on my 119s (350s too).










Spasibo!


----------



## Skv

GuessWho said:


> I think that one is legit (although that dial is certainly uncommon), and it is from a seller who is a member here!


Over time, I have bought several pieces off that seller, all turned out to be legit.


----------



## Pentona

Not Soviet, but is this legit? I haven't seen PRIM quartz watches before. If it's legit, I wonder what movement does it use.


----------



## Tristancp95

GuessWho said:


> I think that one is legit (although that dial is certainly uncommon), and it is from a seller who is a member here!


If it is actually real, then thank you. Do you (or anyone) know much about the dial? For some reason the wyvern is reminding me of something, but I can't quite figure out what. And can someone help me out with the case type number, I'm new at this.


----------



## hnguyen

Normally do you guys trust an item on eBay if it doesn't have pictures of the movement? Like this one: POLJOT Russian Cosmonaut


----------



## GuessWho

Tristancp95 said:


> If it is actually real, then thank you. Do you (or anyone) know much about the dial? For some reason the wyvern is reminding me of something, but I can't quite figure out what. And can someone help me out with the case type number, I'm new at this.


I don't know anything about the dial TBH. Not sure about the case number either, I know it is a Komandisrkie case but that's about it.

Perhaps sq100 will know more, he said earlier in the thread he has the same watch.


----------



## sq100

According to this classification draft https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-classification-database-draft-424915.html it's a komandirskie 339 case. I can't tell anything about the image. Here's mine.


----------



## FrakkenPrawn

Hi all,

I'm on a mission to find a "birth year" watch (1991) and have fallen in love with the Komanderski "Helicopter" watches from Vostok. That fact that I'm a helicopter pilot may have something to do with it.

I've found this one on e-bay but I just want to make sure it's legit as he does have some frankens in his other listings.

Russian VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE Military Watch Aviation Black Dial Helicopter | eBay

I also have two side questions if anyone would be willing to answer.
1) Is the price reasonable?
2) would I be able to source another dial in better condition and replace it?

Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## Ham2

FrakkenPrawn said:


> Hi all, I'm on a mission to find a "birth year" watch (1991) and have fallen in love with the Komanderski "Helicopter" watches from Vostok. That fact that I'm a helicopter pilot may have something to do with it. I've found this one on e-bay but I just want to make sure it's legit as he does have some frankens in his other listings. Russian VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE Military Watch Aviation Black Dial Helicopter | eBay I also have two side questions if anyone would be willing to answer. 1) Is the price reasonable? 2) would I be able to source another dial in better condition and replace it? Thanks in advance for the help!


 Both the dial and the 2 o'clock crown case are not that common so you would likely have a hard time finding a replacement dial (dial looks OK to me: it'd be easier finding a better condition case). The price seems pretty reasonable considering the overall condition - replace the bezel for a few $


----------



## FrakkenPrawn

Ham2 said:


> Both the dial and the 2 o'clock crown case are not that common so you would likely have a hard time finding a replacement dial (dial looks OK to me: it'd be easier finding a better condition case). The price seems pretty reasonable considering the overall condition - replace the bezel for a few $


Thanks for the reply!

Fantastic, the condition of the case doesn't worry me too much as I plan on taking it down too the brass/bronze anyway  but glad to hear you think the dial looks fine.

I got a hold of the seller to ask if he knew the serial number or year the watch was made but he came back to me saying the watch didn't have a serial number so he did not know the exact year. Is this typical of these older Komanderski's?

Edit : I've also found this one, didn't post it as I thought it was a Franken but someone pointed out that Vostok did make Amphibians with Komandirskie dials so it might actually be legit, thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121279060629


----------



## S.H.

Old style civilian hands combo, what looks like a steel case, tab missing (sloppy repair or franken job), post soviet 31659 marked movement, :think: What do you think?


----------



## 104RS

What do you guys think about this Poljot Chronograph? Do all the parts match up as it should?
I'm pretty sure the dial/hands are original, do you see anything odd about the movement/caseback? 
The only thing that seems strange to me is the goldcoloured caseback, does this seem right?


----------



## 93EXCivic

What did I just win?

VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE WOSTOK


----------



## stadiou

Parts box special judging by the hands / face / 31659 movement combination


----------



## S.H.

104RS : the steel back has a different color than the whiter plated case, it's normal. This watch seems OK to me, typical civilian chrono of the end of the 80s.

stadiou: thanks, I think that too.


----------



## GuessWho

93EXCivic said:


> What did I just win?
> 
> VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE WOSTOK


That is a Vostok "Cadet", similar to the Komandirskie but smaller and with different hands.

I would guess it was made in the (very) late 80s or early 90s.


----------



## 93EXCivic

GuessWho said:


> That is a Vostok "Cadet", similar to the Komandirskie but smaller and with different hands.
> 
> I would guess it was made in the (very) late 80s or early 90s.


Thanks. 34mm? Is it using the same movement as a regular no date Komandirskie? Also what is the lug width? 18mm?


----------



## GuessWho

93EXCivic said:


> Thanks. 34mm? Is it using the same movement as a regular no date Komandirskie? Also what is the lug width? 18mm?


Those sizes sound correct, also the movement is a 2409a (not the typical 2414a found in Dirskies) if I am not mistaken.


----------



## 104RS

S.H. said:


> 104RS : the steel back has a different color than the whiter plated case, it's normal. This watch seems OK to me, typical civilian chrono of the end of the 80s.
> 
> stadiou: thanks, I think that too.


Great, thanks for answering my questions S.H. |>
According to the "identification thread" it should be produced somewhere between 1981 and 1987.
This image is extremely helpful:


----------



## S.H.

Also, the balance wheel give some clues (white metal is post 1992 or so, if I remember well).


----------



## Stevebuk

Hello experts!

I trying to find an 80's Okean but seem to only find franken or part bin watches. Could anyone advise on these three?
Mens OCEAN POLJOT VINTAGE RUSSIAN ALL ORIGINAL NAVY SUBMARINE CHRONOGRAPH WATCH | eBay
The first looks to have the right dial / movement and case to me, and the papers seem good? But the hands seem wrong? Is that correct?
The next one is this :
OKEAN SHTURMANSKIE POLJOT 3133 CHRONOGRAPH Military Navy Soviet Watch | eBay
Wrong hands and movement too new? Also plated case?
This looks best to me, but maybe "too" good? Also rather expensive? Does it look correct to you?
1MChZ OKEAH OKEAN (

Thank you for the advice!


----------



## S.H.

My 2 cents :

1) OK but some hands replaced (second counter, hours and minutes seems a bit newer) also small second and minutes counter inverted :-s

2) franken, movement is post soviet and case is plated not steel, some wring hands

3) nice! if the case is really steel

For me, price of 1) is too high considering the condition of the dial. But it has papers...
Price of 2) is high but it looks good...


----------



## slls

S.H. said:


> My 2 cents :
> 
> 1) OK but some hands replaced (second counter, hours and minutes seems a bit newer) also small second and minutes counter inverted :-s
> 
> 2) franken, movement is post soviet and case is plated not steel, some wring hands
> 
> 3) nice! if the case is really steel
> 
> For me, price of 1) is too high considering the condition of the dial. But it has papers...
> Price of 2) is high but it looks good...


I agree; number 3 is the best. Alas the price for a good OKEAH is 500 to 600 US$ these days. But if you where a seller, what should you do? Can't blame them. The more rare, the higher the price. btw as far as I understood all OKEAH's have stainless steel cases, even the civil editions. I find it hard to tell when the case is stainless steel or not. Anyone who can tell?

This is mine... 
slls-watches: OKEAH


----------



## Ham2

Number 1 is questionable - the condition of the dial seems inconsistent with the rest of the watch. And I would not put too much stock in whether the papers do belong to the watch (even though it has the serial number written on it) - that seller sells a lot of Frankenstein. Number 2 is a dog's dinner - avoid. The seller is also known to sell/act as intermediary for a lot of Frankenstein. Number 3 looks to be authentic and other seller occasionally posts on this forum. There are a couple of passable OKEAH/OKEAN for sale on you-know-where just now


----------



## Stevebuk

Thanks for the comments guys.


----------



## kiscel

Ok let's try this watch that i'm trying to buy. Here's an imgur link - This is what I think I know POBEDA medical 15j made at ZIM in the 1980's with a movement 2602.


----------



## Backstreet

Errr...don't know anything about its authenticity, but if there's one thing you can be sure of it's the fact that is definitely not a medical watch.
Don't take a white dial and a few red numbers here and there for one of them: forgetting for a while that medical watches are usually chronographs, it would need at least a pulsometric scale and a seconds hand long enough to reach it...what could you use on it to count the heart rate, the minute hand? :-s


----------



## kiscel

Yeah I was just going off the listing annd said it was medical and I can see why it does look close.


Backstreet said:


> Errr...don't know anything about its authenticity, but if there's one thing you can be sure of it's the fact that is definitely not a medical watch.
> Don't take a white dial and a few red numbers here and there for one of them: forgetting for a while that medical watches are usually chronographs, it would need at least a pulsometric scale and a seconds hand long enough to reach it...what could you use on it to count the heart rate, the minute hand? :-s


----------



## MayorM

You get what you pay for.Two similar Strelas : Poljot legit POLJOT Chronograph 3017 RARE Astronauts and Pilots Watch from 60&apos;s 16394 | eBay ,Sekonda franken(even trying to hide the seller location)Vintage Sekonda Strela 3017 Russian Military Chronograph Watch POLJOT USSR RARE | eBay


----------



## quattro777

Could I get the experts opinion's on these please?

Poljot Sturmanski Herrenuhr Chronograph Mechanisch/Handaufzug Kal. 3133 -Top | eBay

Chronograph SHTURMANSKIE POLJOT 31659 stop-second USSR STAINLESS STEEL | eBay

Schöner POLJOT STURMANSKIE CHRONOGRAPH - Kaliber 3133 - Russian Military Watch | eBay


----------



## MayorM

quattro777 said:


> Could I get the experts opinion's on these please?
> 
> Poljot Sturmanski Herrenuhr Chronograph Mechanisch/Handaufzug Kal. 3133 -Top | eBay
> 
> Chronograph SHTURMANSKIE POLJOT 31659 stop-second USSR STAINLESS STEEL | eBay
> 
> Schöner POLJOT STURMANSKIE CHRONOGRAPH - Kaliber 3133 - Russian Military Watch | eBay


In my opinion all three are not an authentic-genuine Sturmanskie


----------



## Backstreet

MayorM said:


> You get what you pay for.Two similar Strelas : Poljot legit POLJOT Chronograph 3017 RARE Astronauts and Pilots Watch from 60&apos;s 16394 | eBay ,Sekonda franken(even trying to hide the seller location)Vintage Sekonda Strela 3017 Russian Military Chronograph Watch POLJOT USSR RARE | eBay


Sometimes you DON'T get what you pay for...

The Sekonda only has both small hands and the crown which are non-original. Technically yes, it is a franken: but those are minor defects after all, and can be adjusted with time.
I believe that with some efforts and patience it's possible to find a similar watch for a little less than the asking price of $585 at, but it's not a steal.
The true problem could be the seller. There is a thread regarding him on this forum, and FWIW I definitely would not recommend him.

About the "legit" Poljot, I think you missed that also on it the crown is wrong.
For $999 I'm sorry for the seller but I would pretend the watch to be 101% perfect.
A $400 difference for just the two small hands is outrageous, IMHO. But with the current trend, I fear that somebody will pull the trigger on it. :roll:


----------



## MayorM

Backstreet said:


> Sometimes you DON'T get what you pay for...
> 
> The Sekonda only has both small hands and the crown which are non-original. Technically yes, it is a franken: but those are minor defects after all, and can be adjusted with time.
> I believe that with some efforts and patience it's possible to find a similar watch for a little less than the asking price of $585 at, but it's not a steal.
> The true problem could be the seller. There is a thread regarding him on this forum, and FWIW I definitely would not recommend him.
> 
> About the "legit" Poljot, I think you missed that also on it the crown is wrong.
> For $999 I'm sorry for the seller but I would pretend the watch to be 101% perfect.
> A $400 difference for just the two small hands is outrageous, IMHO. But with the current trend, I fear that somebody will pull the trigger on it. :roll:


Poljot crown in fact my mistake, I did not catch this:-s.But in Sekonda movement is composed together from several corpses.19 камней never occurs with such a high serial number:rodekaart


----------



## hnguyen

I am trying to find a Raketa Kopernik white dial. I found this watch on eBay. However it doesn't look right for me. Has anyone here ever seen the Raketa Kopernik with 2614H movement?

















Thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

hnguyen said:


> I am trying to find a Raketa Kopernik white dial. I found this watch on eBay. However it doesn't look right for me. Has anyone here ever seen the Raketa Kopernik with 2614H movement?
> 
> View attachment 1408542
> 
> 
> View attachment 1408543
> 
> 
> Thanks.


Probably a repair, comrade hnguyen, as all the 26xx movements of that type had main bridges which would interchange. The 2614 indicates a date function present which obviously is not there. I would not buy a copernicus without 2609.NP (НП in cyrillic) precision movement which is what they originally were sold with. Not bad otherwise from what you've shown and should clean up well. Find a crown with some chrome still on it and a 2609.НП movement to install (pretty hard to find) and you have a decent restoration. I would be looking for a bargain on that one or pass.


----------



## hnguyen

schnurrp said:


> Probably a repair, comrade hnguyen, as all the 26xx movements of that type had main bridges which would interchange. The 2614 indicates a date function present which obviously is not there. I would not buy a copernicus without 2609.NP (НП in cyrillic) precision movement which is what they originally were sold with. Not bad otherwise from what you've shown and should clean up well. Find a crown with some chrome still on it and a 2609.НП movement to install (pretty hard to find) and you have a decent restoration. I would be looking for a bargain on that one or pass.


Thanks for your response, comrade. I already have the black dial with 2609.NP and really want to find a white dial one. But with this price for a non-authentic watch like that, I think I will pass.


----------



## alex1908

I like the face of this watch. The only hesitation I have with it is the only other one I've seen like it has a different bevel. I would love to hear your opinions.


----------



## schnurrp

alex1908 said:


> I like the face of this watch. The only hesitation I have with it is the only other one I've seen like it has a different bevel. I would love to hear your opinions.
> View attachment 1409204


It's a fake with fake dial and hands and fake lume dot on the bezel, comrade alex. Nyet! Here's Michele's:










Look carefully and you'll see many little details that are off, for instance minute marks don't line up, hands are too fat, etc.


----------



## alex1908

You are correct. I've been comparing Amphibians for the past couple of days and everything is getting all jumbled up. I think I need to take a breather and re-vist this task in a couple of days. Thank you, schnurrp.


----------



## quattro777

Genuine?


----------



## Ham2

quattro777 said:


> Genuine?


Really do need to see a picture of the movement. But in it's absence and assuming it is correct, Oooh yeah. Nice one.


----------



## hnguyen

I think it is an authentic one: 1960s Sekonda Strella 3017 Cosmonaut Chronograph Excellent Condition | eBay here. Am i right, comrades?


----------



## Backstreet

A very nice one


----------



## hnguyen

Backstreet said:


> A very nice one


 Lost again. The price went up suddenly to $620 plus $25 shipping. Well, not to say the custom fees when it comes to US


----------



## frjack

How about this? Check the seller in the link

Poljot USSR Stadium &apos;Moscow Olympic Games 1980&apos;s | eBay


----------



## frjack

And this one?

SOVIET POLJOT OLYMPIC WATCH OLYMPIAD MOSCOW 80 | eBay

























With a similar one here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SOVIET-PO...210447623?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item19e4a8c307


----------



## GirchyGirchy

NM, lost out on it.


----------



## Backstreet

frjack said:


> How about this? Check the seller in the link
> Poljot USSR Stadium &apos;Moscow Olympic Games 1980&apos;s | eBay
> 
> View attachment 1412894


Not an expert, but it looks all legit to me.
Dealt a couple of times with that seller, I would surely recommend him -often seen many interesting items among his auctions.


----------



## GuessWho

Already pulled the trigger on this one, the only item of concern is the bezel:








Ive seen the same bezel on the same watch on Mark Gordon's website, but his has a different case. All examples of the Desert Shield in this case I have seen have the dot type bezel, but I wonder if this bezel could also be orginal.

Some more pics:









Thoughts?


----------



## DolleDolf

his other watches all look good, if a bit pricey. No "private gift from Goebbels to Stalin" etc. Probably OK.


----------



## theinterchange

Hit the "best offer" button on this one earlier this morning, seller accepted. Seller says he bought it as NOS (from the 70's) back in 2000. What do you think? 














I'm not concered about his age approximation, just if it's legitimate. Even if it isn't and it works fine, I didn't pay too much for it.

Randy


----------



## Lampoc

theinterchange said:


> Hit the "best offer" button on this one earlier this morning, seller accepted. Seller says he bought it as NOS (from the 70's) back in 2000. What do you think?


Looks fine to me, although I would say it was mid to late 80's.


----------



## theinterchange

Lampoc said:


> Looks fine to me, although I would say it was mid to late 80's.


I was thinking 80's, myself. I didn't buy it based upon the advertized "age", but rather that it was a OBO in the "low rent district" I was wanting to keep my first Soviet Era watch. 

Randy


----------



## Lampoc

Here it is in a 1990 Vostok Catalogue. Slightly different bezel though:


----------



## hnguyen

What do you guys think about this:

Dial: http://i.imgur.com/W4wtG8P.jpg
Movement: http://i.imgur.com/qptvNrh.jpg

The number doesn't look correct, does it?


----------



## Wouter77

True, the high serial number doesn't seem to match the early design of the dial. The crown and the large seconds hand don't look original to me either.

Although I own a similar Strela myself I must admit that I'm quite new to vintage Russian watches...


----------



## Backstreet

The movement as a whole is ok (pentagon stamp + high S/N + "jewels" in english) but as you correctly noticed it doesn't match with the dial. And yes, the chrono seconds hand goes with paddles and not with batons, and the crown doesn't look good.
Don't know if it's the light reflection of the picture, but it also seems that the case is a very early curved lugs one: in such case, it wouldn't be consistent with either the dial nor the movement.


----------



## hnguyen

Thanks for your advices, guys. And one more, so sorry I ask too much, I am looking for a 3017 myself.

Original USSR Soviet Russian Military Strela 3017 Chronograph Watch | eBay

Is it authentic and is the price acceptable?


----------



## Wouter77

The dial, hands and crown look new to me, as if they're taken from a re-issue. The markers seem to be wider than on the original Strela dials. Also the large seconds hand should have a different colour. 

As for the movement, the low serial doesn't seem to be consistent with the English "19 jewels". I would have expected Cyrillic letters for this serial number.

If I'm correct about these issues the watch i wouldn't buy it for this price....


----------



## Backstreet

A total crap.

Apart from the fact that I wouldn't buy from that seller even with a loaded gun pointing at my head, dial and set of hands are the infamous chinese fakes (check the cut-off indexes and the width/shape of the hands).


If it only costed $250/300 it would be worth buying and go searching for one of those NOS Poljot/Sekonda dials and set of paddle hands that show up sometimes.
But at $999 OBO is a steal.


EDIT: the movement is 100% ok, the number is high and not low (it must be read as "104323") and perfectly matches with the Poljot Crown logo. Very end of production, 1978-79.

BTW, the crown is also wrong.


----------



## hnguyen

Thanks again, comrades. Damn, why is finding a good 3017 that difficult?


----------



## Geoff Adams

Greetings Experts,

I was wondering if someone could please comment on this Komandirskie for me.
It's a 3aka3 Mo dial, and from what I can see from Michele's collection, this seems to fit the case.
However the back is different, and I am worried about the seconds hand, which does not look kosher. It's a 2414A movement???

The reason I'm even taking an interest in this watch is that it is from a private seller who has completely misdescribed it, and called it something it isn't. So it's got no interest and is going dirt cheap.
If it's any good I might snipe it as I haven't got one of these.

Many thanks indeed for your consideration with this, and just to remind you all how much I appreciate the opportunity of learning from you!


----------



## schnurrp

Geoff Adams said:


> Greetings Experts,
> 
> I was wondering if someone could please comment on this Komandirskie for me.
> It's a 3aka3 Mo dial, and from what I can see from Michele's collection, this seems to fit the case.
> However the back is different, and I am worried about the seconds hand, which does not look kosher. It's a 2414A movement???
> 
> The reason I'm even taking an interest in this watch is that it is from a private seller who has completely misdescribed it, and called it something it isn't. So it's got no interest and is going dirt cheap.
> If it's any good I might snipe it as I haven't got one of these.
> 
> Many thanks indeed for your consideration with this, and just to remind you all how much I appreciate the opportunity of learning from you!


Back is fine comrade Geoff and second hand too:










That bezel is unusual but as you can see it was found on this komandirskie. Picture from 1990 catalog. That same bezel was found on several amphibians too, making it the most used bezel ever, I believe. Balance has been replaced. The "meatball" second hand is unusual for komandirskies but did appear from time to time and a set of nickel plated is often found as an alternative to the red one in the catalog.


----------



## Geoff Adams

Thank you very much indeed - as always - Comrade Schnurrp!

That's good enough for me - I'll snipe it and see if I can add it to my growing collection, hopefully for no more than a cheap round of drinks for 3 at happy hour.

Hugely instructive and interesting - Much appreciated!


----------



## frjack

Any thoughts on this one?























Cheers!


----------



## frjack

Can anyone help with the one above? It's ending soon-ish and I'd rather not blow at least 70USD on a franken. Seller has 100% feedback, but there's always a chance that a duff one might slip through. 

Sent from my fondleslab , using teh interwebs.


----------



## Backstreet

I'm no Vostok expert at all but I think it's a franken, the case is not correct for the dial.
In addition, the dial itself is in such very poor conditions (cracking, discoloration) that I could consider buying that watch if it was priced at $10/15; at 70 or more it's just craziness, for that money you should be able to get an almost perfect one.

BTW this is how it should look like, judge by yourself (photo from Netgrafik's site)


----------



## frjack

Backstreet said:


> I'm no Vostok expert at all but I think it's a franken, the case is not correct for the dial.
> In addition, the dial itself is in such very poor conditions (cracking, discoloration) that I could consider buying that watch if it was priced at $10/15; at 70 or more it's just craziness, for that money you should be able to get an almost perfect one.
> 
> BTW this is how it should look like, judge by yourself (photo from Netgrafik's site)
> 
> View attachment 1438093


Thanks for the info. I was looking at one like the photo, but someone hit the BIN before me. Uggbre!

Sent from my fondleslab , using teh interwebs.


----------



## Geoff Adams

frjack said:


> Thanks for the info. I was looking at one like the photo, but someone hit the BIN before me. Uggbre!
> 
> Sent from my fondleslab , using teh interwebs.


Errmmm,

I think that might have been me. US seller $65 conus only? I've been looking out for a really nice example of this model dial combo at a reasonable price for ages, and wandered across this NOS beauty yesterday afternoon and pulled the trigger immediately (within seconds to close the sale down). I got stung on the postage but it's still worth it. Sorry if it is the same one and I upset your plans.
I'm sure the reverse is going to come to pass at some point in the future, and I'm sure there are plenty more fish in the sea.


----------



## Seele

Please be aware that the "Rising Star" was also built as a 311 model, the early 211 case (large crown, no later than 2009) could not possibly be correct.


----------



## frjack

Oddly, there's a chap in UK selling some of his collection... which includes a "rising star" with the same colouration (but much better condition) as the one I posted and a whole heap cheaper.

Actually, on closer inspection, the dial may actually match. The case and bezel are the right shape and colour, but the photo is a bit washed out (phone pic, I guess), so the dial may well be correct.


----------



## quattro777

quattro777 said:


> Genuine?


Movement shot of the above, opinions?


----------



## polmax3133

Looks good! See my recent wrist shot in WRUW - same age ca. 1982

The hands look repainted orange, that's it.


----------



## trambagieris

imgur: the simple image sharer

NEW Rusian USSR Raketa - Box, Paper and Original Strap | eBay

I own the first watch.i just bought the second .The first one is supposed to be a 2603 movement but the dial is in english which got me thinking its changed cause the most raketas that people commenting looking ok have cyrillic dials.Same goes for the second but the papers and NOS quality convinced me.Any more thoughts?Fake?ok?franken?


----------



## mgw

I just picked up this Komandirskie and it just doesn't seem right now that I have it in my hands. The stem doesn't push in all the way flush with the case:









The dial has some space between it and the case, and the stem is visible through the crystal because of it:









Here are pics of the front and side:















The movement is 2234. It seems to me like the case is from the 70's as the seller claims (or a copy of one from the 70's), but it seems like a different movement and later dial were stuck into it. Then again, I'm a noob so I'm not sure what the heck I have.


----------



## seafarer

Does anyone have any idea about this komandirskie? Is it franken?


----------



## schnurrp

I don't think that dial is supposed to be in that case, comrade, and crown has been replaced with one that doesn't screw down onto shaft far enough.

Should be in this case (from Michelle) with inner bezel:










That's how I see it, spasibo!


----------



## schnurrp

seafarer said:


> Does anyone have any idea about this komandirskie? Is it franken?
> 
> View attachment 1448297
> 
> View attachment 1448298
> 
> View attachment 1448299
> 
> View attachment 1448300


Your suspicions are well-founded, in my opinion, comrade!


----------



## mgw

Schnurrp:

Did I fall for it twice in a row? This one is a 1190 amphibian case with a 2209 movement (which is what this case came with) and it has a komandirskie dial. Back when I bought this it didn't even occur to me that this is an amphibian case yet the dial says komandirskie. I think I may be learning the hard way.


----------



## schnurrp

mgw said:


> I think I may be learning the hard way.
> 
> View attachment 1449384


Yes comrade mgw, but you _are_ learning. A decent assortment of parts for your spare parts drawer, although hands appear to be from modern amphibian.


----------



## mgw

schnurrp said:


> Yes comrade mgw, but you _are_ learning. A decent assortment of parts for your spare parts drawer, although hands appear to be from modern amphibian.


 It seems like everything goes together except for the dial. Damn. Is the dial real, but for another watch, or is it an outright fantasy dial?


----------



## schnurrp

mgw said:


> It seems like everything goes together except for the dial. Damn. Is the dial real, but for another watch, or is it an outright fantasy dial?


Definitely authentic design (Oh, I just noticed it is missing the date window so mild fantasy instead) but certainly doesn't look hand-painted like the Chistopol komandirskie example from Antonov so I think it's a modern replica/fantasy. Also notice missing minute marks at "3":


----------



## schnurrp

Is it from timepieceUA? Another of his offerings:


----------



## goody2141

Also posted in another thread


----------



## GuessWho

goody2141 said:


> Also posted in another thread


Looks legit, that is a pretty common model from the early 90s. I do however find it a bit funny that the dial is the Russian flag but it still says "Made in USSR" on it:-d


----------



## mgw

schnurrp said:


> Is it from timepieceUA? Another of his offerings:


No, different seller. I'm not going to rat him out on here unless he won't work with me. I told him if he refunded $25 of the $55 I paid for it that I'd call it even. I figure I'll take the $25 and find a correct dial. He said he'd give me $10 or I could ship it back to him (at my expense) and he'd give me a refund. 
I told him I'm covered by buyer protection thanks to PayPal and the fact that he called the watch NOS from the 70's. EBay hates when people all counterfeits of anything because it kills their business by making it hard for people to sell name brands of you can't trust that they really are.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk


----------



## valter-g

schnurrp said:


> Definitely authentic design (Oh, I just noticed it is missing the date window so mild fantasy instead) but certainly doesn't look hand-painted like the Chistopol komandirskie example from Antonov so I think it's a modern replica/fantasy. Also notice missing minute marks at "3":


Comrade Schnurrp,
as far as I understand you, the original Chistopol/zakaz komandirskie all have hand-painted hour numbers/marks? I was thinking these hand-painted numbers are modern reluming.


----------



## schnurrp

valter-g said:


> Comrade Schnurrp,
> as far as I understand you, the original Chistopol/zakaz komandirskie all have hand-painted hour numbers/marks? I was thinking these hand-painted numbers are modern reluming.


Well, comrade, some may have been re-lumed but the original dials were hand-painted, as far as I know.

Another from Antonov:










Michelle:









Ill-Phil:


----------



## GirchyGirchy

How about these two:

USSR RAKETA 24 Hours Dial Very RARE Old Soviet Mechanical Wrist Watch Men S | eBay

RAKETA 24 Hours Antarctic Submarine Military Watches Made in Russia | eBay

The funny thing I noticed with the second one is that the little notch on the silver sunburst main dial is at 3 (er...6) rather than 12 (24), which I haven't seen on any others. The lines on the applied indices appear pretty messy as well.


----------



## schnurrp

GirchyGirchy said:


> How about these two:
> 
> USSR RAKETA 24 Hours Dial Very RARE Old Soviet Mechanical Wrist Watch Men S | eBay
> 
> RAKETA 24 Hours Antarctic Submarine Military Watches Made in Russia | eBay
> 
> The funny thing I noticed with the second one is that the little notch on the silver sunburst main dial is at 3 (er...6) rather than 12 (24), which I haven't seen on any others. The lines on the applied indices appear pretty messy as well.


I've seen that first one in an '83 catalog with the chrome body, black bezel, red and blue inner bezel, and champagne inner dial before though inner dial had curved place of origin. However the inner dial does not appear to fit properly and there is too much wear on the back of the case. This is not one I, personally, would consider, especially at that price. Movement appears authentic. https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5688474890654282546&oid=113098239036073221216

As far as the second one goes I wouldn't be interested since I don't collect Russian but I think that inner dial should go with the black outer bezel. The parts look all authentic, notwithstanding the location of the "notch" which I have seen at "3" on other watches, but I'm not sure if they all belong together. I would be doing more research before I'd consider paying that much.


----------



## GirchyGirchy

schnurrp said:


> I've seen that first one in an '83 catalog with the chrome body, black bezel, red and blue inner bezel, and champagne inner dial before though inner dial had curved place of origin. However the inner dial does not appear to fit properly and there is too much wear on the back of the case. This is not one I, personally, would consider, especially at that price. Movement appears authentic. https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5688474890654282546&oid=113098239036073221216


I see that on the poor fit, and had noticed the corrosion on the case. These things are a ..... to find in good condition and appear 100% accurate without having been messed with. Last pretty one I saw went for $187 USD. Thanks!


----------



## Pentona

Is this new Poljot Alarm legit?

POLJOT ALARM 2612/1012 | eBay


----------



## schnurrp

Pentona said:


> Is this new Poljot Alarm legit?
> 
> POLJOT ALARM 2612/1012 | eBay


I have my doubts about that one, comrade. Soviet-era dial with cyrillic writing in a case with latin writing on the bezel is suspicious. Also glass crystal is very unlikely in a soviet watch.


----------



## BizzyC

Hello friends!

I've started collecting Amphibian watches and just picked up two that are in excellent condition but appear to be in the 020 case which tells me they're not new. I'm guessing with the white pip on the bezels and the hand wind movement they date from the 90s. My question relates to the dials. Anyone seen these before? I know Vostok did a lot of commemorative dials in the 90's so these could be just that. Just hoping this educated forum could tell me if these are legit or franken. Many thanks.


----------



## SovAm

Hello everyone! My first time posting here. I've been collecting Soviet watches for several months now and just discovered this amazing forum a few days ago. Wish it had happened sooner since it definitely looks like I managed to pick up a few frankens along the way.  I won't showcase the obvious frankensteins, but am wondering if experts could weigh in on a couple I'm not able to diagnose for sure myself. Here's one:
VOSTOK 2414 KOMANDIRSKIE "Sunrise" Zakaz MO Russian Soviet Mechanical Wristwatch | eBay

Thank you, really appreciate any help with this!


----------



## Geoff Adams

SovAm said:


> Hello everyone! My first time posting here. I've been collecting Soviet watches for several months now and just discovered this amazing forum a few days ago. Wish it had happened sooner since it definitely looks like I managed to pick up a few frankens along the way.  I won't showcase the obvious frankensteins, but am wondering if experts could weigh in on a couple I'm not able to diagnose for sure myself. Here's one:
> VOSTOK 2414 KOMANDIRSKIE "Sunrise" Zakaz MO Russian Soviet Mechanical Wristwatch | eBay
> 
> Thank you, really appreciate any help with this!


A warm and hearty welcome to the f10 forum Comrade SovAm!

I think I may be able to help here - the watch you are showing has a 3aka3 dial, which was only issued by Vostok to Ministry of Defence retail outlets during the Soviet era. It looks like an original dial, not a fake. But I would draw your attention to the case back, with the English language writing on it. I don't believe the casebacks made for the MOD retail outlets had any English writing on them. The bezel, case and case back all look to belong together, but the engraving on the caseback tells me that it was produced especially for the export market. Now, I'm not sure about this, but I think the bezel fitted to the MOD issue Red Sun Rising case was different to the one on this watch. I have a Red Sun Rising produced for the US market with a similar caseback and bezel combination. But the dial on my version has the Cyrillic Russian words 'сделано в CCCP' stamped on the bottom where the '3aka3' stamp is on your example. Meaning my dial was produced for the domestic and export markets, rather than the MOD retail outlets.

 Therefore my opinion is that the watch you show in your link is a franken, with the MOD issue Red Sun Rising dial having been slotted into a case, caseback and bezel combination which was produced for export.

I'm sure one of the experts will chime in if they think I have something wrong. Hope this helps, and look forward to seeing your posts often on the forum!


----------



## schnurrp

BizzyC said:


> Hello friends!
> 
> I've started collecting Amphibian watches and just picked up two that are in excellent condition but appear to be in the 020 case which tells me they're not new. I'm guessing with the white pip on the bezels and the hand wind movement they date from the 90s. My question relates to the dials. Anyone seen these before? I know Vostok did a lot of commemorative dials in the 90's so these could be just that. Just hoping this educated forum could tell me if these are legit or franken. Many thanks.


Legit, in my opinion comrade, some of many "theme" dials produced by Vostok on demand, particularly toward the end of the USSR. Islamic themes, I believe, one depicting a famous mosque, perhaps, the other with a flag, origin unknown by me.


----------



## BizzyC

schnurrp said:


> Legit, in my opinion comrade, some of many "theme" dials produced by Vostok on demand, particularly toward the end of the USSR. Islamic themes, I believe, one depicting a famous mosque, perhaps, the other with a flag, origin unknown by me.


Many thanks Comrade Schnurrp!!

I love the older Amphibians, especially the 020 case, so with all the different dial themes that exist I'm afraid that my collection will continue to grow. Fortunately, with a little bit of patience and research you can find these watches in very good condition for a small investment.


----------



## SovAm

Thank you for the bad news, Comrade Adams, I was afraid of that. And since nobody else is chiming in, I have to conclude that your verdict is correct. I wonder if the zakaz dial on this design is itself a franken? I've been searching quite a bit lately and haven't seen another example. Also the design seems a bit frivolous for the MOD. And I don't know if this sort of thing is indicative of anything, but if you look closely, the left bottom edge of the central design is slightly lower on the dial compared to the right bottom, but the star itself is still centered on the 12.


----------



## SovAm

So, here's another one I'm not quite sure about. This one is still in the mail. What do the experts think - museum piece as the seller claims or straight from the lab of Dr. Frankenstein?

WWII Military Soviet Red Army Kirovskie 1940`s Watch | eBay

Thank you, much obliged!


----------



## Geoff Adams

SovAm said:


> Thank you for the bad news, Comrade Adams, I was afraid of that. And since nobody else is chiming in, I have to conclude that your verdict is correct. I wonder if the zakaz dial on this design is itself a franken? I've been searching quite a bit lately and haven't seen another example. Also the design seems a bit frivolous for the MOD. And I don't know if this sort of thing is indicative of anything, but if you look closely, the left bottom edge of the central design is slightly lower on the dial compared to the right bottom, but the star itself is still centered on the 12.


Yes, I see what you mean about the slight miss-alignment at the bottom of the dial. My experience gets very thin at this point, however, if this is not a camera/angle issue, then I would say that because the dial was meant for another case, then it can be seen to be slightly ill fitting for this watch. My guess is that this isn't a fake dial, just one that has been put into a case for which it was not originally destined. I know for a fact that with some dials which won't fit a host case for which it was not meant, Dr Frankenstein will file the dial down to fit, which is always a great shame. On the bright side, if you have bought this watch, and the dial is original, it is much rarer than the one produced for the civilian market, and just because it has been fitted into a case destined for the domestic/export civilian market doesn't make it a bad watch, and it still looks very good. In the future, you could even have it transferred into a case which is suitable for it, making it a 'correct' 3aka3 Rising Sun. I have just got my hands on a very rare 17J Sturmanskie Gagarin, which is missing a part. I have now bought a Sportivnie which uses the same movement and other parts as a spares watch for the Gagarin, in case anything in the original watch goes bang. My first job will be to replace the missing movement case retaining ring to the Gagarin, FROM the Sportivnie. See what I mean&#8230;


----------



## Geoff Adams

SovAm said:


> So, here's another one I'm not quite sure about. This one is still in the mail. What do the experts think - museum piece as the seller claims or straight from the lab of Dr. Frankenstein?
> 
> WWII Military Soviet Red Army Kirovskie 1940`s Watch | eBay
> 
> Thank you, much obliged!


 This looks a really interesting watch - if you've already bought it, I think it would deserve a dedicated thread of its own, to make sure the relevant experts spot it. You could describe it something like: 'Soviet WW2 era Kirovskie Watch: Authentication Thread - Original or Fake?'


Good luck!


----------



## jmreynolds

Advertised as Rare Poljot/Sputnik from the 1960s. Opinions before I buy?


----------



## schnurrp

jmreynolds said:


> Advertised as Rare Poljot/Sputnik from the 1960s. Opinions before I buy?


A chrome version of this one of ill-phils? Looks pretty good.










Missing "КП1" but I've seen it both ways.


----------



## Martins.

jmreynolds said:


> Advertised as Rare Poljot/Sputnik from the 1960s. Opinions before I buy?


Very best seller Uzbekistan


----------



## jmreynolds

I saw that and wondered. Thanks.


----------



## Backstreet

SovAm said:


> So, here's another one I'm not quite sure about. This one is still in the mail. What do the experts think - museum piece as the seller claims or straight from the lab of Dr. Frankenstein?
> 
> WWII Military Soviet Red Army Kirovskie 1940`s Watch | eBay
> 
> Thank you, much obliged!


Not an expert, but I think that a watch from that era should have factory logo and production date stamped on the movement.
I also find strange that the plate isn't somehow decorated (Geneva stripes or similar).

Have a look at this and compare:

















On a side note, the one you posted seems to have its era-correct hands; should it be the case, the lume is likely radium. 
Be careful if opening the caseback to see the movement: altough no more light-emitting, it would still be radioactive.
The main risk isn't to have skin contact but to inhale it (with the small, invisible particles of dust that could get out of the case). 
Search on this forum for more info, you won't have to bury it 6 feet under in a cement coffin :-d but a little care is advisable. ;-)


----------



## SovAm

Geoff Adams said:


> Yes, I see what you mean about the slight miss-alignment at the bottom of the dial. My experience gets very thin at this point, however, if this is not a camera/angle issue, then I would say that because the dial was meant for another case, then it can be seen to be slightly ill fitting for this watch. My guess is that this isn't a fake dial, just one that has been put into a case for which it was not originally destined. I know for a fact that with some dials which won't fit a host case for which it was not meant, Dr Frankenstein will file the dial down to fit, which is always a great shame. On the bright side, if you have bought this watch, and the dial is original, it is much rarer than the one produced for the civilian market, and just because it has been fitted into a case destined for the domestic/export civilian market doesn't make it a bad watch, and it still looks very good. In the future, you could even have it transferred into a case which is suitable for it, making it a 'correct' 3aka3 Rising Sun. I have just got my hands on a very rare 17J Sturmanskie Gagarin, which is missing a part. I have now bought a Sportivnie which uses the same movement and other parts as a spares watch for the Gagarin, in case anything in the original watch goes bang. My first job will be to replace the missing movement case retaining ring to the Gagarin, FROM the Sportivnie. See what I mean&#8230;


Thank you, really appreciate your help! But I think you misunderstood me. Not sure how easy it is to see in the photos, but the misalignment is weirdly within the dial itself. The lower left hand corner of that central design with the stripes and the sun is further down from the 8 o'clock stripe than the lower right hand corner is from the 4 o'clock, but the star is still perfectly centered on the 12 o'clock. This doesn't seem to be the case with other "made in ussr" versions of this design I've seen, and I don't know how to make sense of it.


----------



## SovAm

Backstreet said:


> Not an expert, but I think that a watch from that era should have factory logo and production date stamped on the movement.
> I also find strange that the plate isn't somehow decorated (Geneva stripes or similar).
> 
> Have a look at this and compare:
> 
> View attachment 1463796
> 
> 
> View attachment 1463798
> 
> 
> On a side note, the one you posted seems to have its era-correct hands; should it be the case, the lume is likely radium.
> Be careful if opening the caseback to see the movement: altough no more light-emitting, it would still be radioactive.
> The main risk isn't to have skin contact but to inhale it (with the small, invisible particles of dust that could get out of the case).
> Search on this forum for more info, you won't have to bury it 6 feet under in a cement coffin :-d but a little care is advisable. ;-)


Thank you very much, really appreciate your explanation. The lack of stamps on the movement was my chief concern as well, though sadly after the fact. The five examples of this watch that Mark Gordon has on his site are all thoroughly stamped. This one does seem to have a number on it, but it's difficult to see in the photos and it's not consistent with the others. The movement on the whole does seem to look the same as the legit ones though. I wonder what that sort of thing means, that the whole movement was somehow fake made later and fitted into the original case?


----------



## S.H.

"fake made", no. Replaced with another one, recent, without stamp, perhaps. Maybe the original movement was damaged.



SovAm said:


> Thank you very much, really appreciate your explanation. The lack of stamps on the movement was my chief concern as well, though sadly after the fact. The five examples of this watch that Mark Gordon has on his site are all thoroughly stamped. This one does seem to have a number on it, but it's difficult to see in the photos and it's not consistent with the others. The movement on the whole does seem to look the same as the legit ones though. I wonder what that sort of thing means, that the whole movement was somehow fake made later and fitted into the original case?


----------



## romadant

Just received this one. Everything looks to be in order. The only thing I'm curious about is the Zakaz MO CCCP is slightly obscured by the case - maybe 55% shows and 45% is obscured. Hard to photograph. Is that normal or did someone move this movement/dial into this case from a different one?

One other thing I just noticed - looks like the crown doesn't screw down all the way. Replaced with wrong one?


----------



## Arizone

romadant said:


> Just received this one. Everything looks to be in order. The only thing I'm curious about is the Zakaz MO CCCP is slightly obscured by the case - maybe 55% shows and 45% is obscured. Hard to photograph. Is that normal or did someone move this movement/dial into this case from a different one?
> 
> One other thing I just noticed - looks like the crown doesn't screw down all the way. Replaced with wrong one?


It's probably okay. The dial inscription is usually at the very bottom, usually further obscured by the curved crystal. It's a standard case and dial so unless the spacer is missing around the movement everything should fit exactly. With the crown try looking at the gasket on the inside to make sure it's pressed in all the way and that the threads are clear of debris.


----------



## Timepiece Tenderfoot

Your Komandirskie appears to have an incorrect second hand. That is not a difficult correction.
Some of the crowns on these Vostoks never seem to screw down flush. 

What's on the back and inside?


----------



## schnurrp

Timepiece Tenderfoot said:


> Your Komandirskie appears to have an incorrect second hand. That is not a difficult correction.
> Some of the crowns on these Vostoks never seem to screw down flush.
> 
> What's on the back and inside?


1990 catalog:


----------



## romadant

Arizone said:


> It's probably okay. The dial inscription is usually at the very bottom, usually further obscured by the curved crystal. It's a standard case and dial so unless the spacer is missing around the movement everything should fit exactly. With the crown try looking at the gasket on the inside to make sure it's pressed in all the way and that the threads are clear of debris.


Thank you for the info. Spacer is there so I think you're right and it's just down really low on the dial.



Timepiece Tenderfoot said:


> Your Komandirskie appears to have an incorrect second hand. That is not a difficult correction.
> Some of the crowns on these Vostoks never seem to screw down flush.
> 
> What's on the back and inside?


Should the second hand not have the bubble and short tail on the other end?

Here's the back and inside.


----------



## Arizone

Timepiece Tenderfoot said:


> Your Komandirskie appears to have an incorrect second hand. That is not a difficult correction.
> Some of the crowns on these Vostoks never seem to screw down flush.
> 
> What's on the back and inside?





romadant said:


> Thank you for the info. Spacer is there so I think you're right and it's just down really low on the dial.
> 
> Should the second hand not have the bubble and short tail on the other end?
> 
> Here's the back and inside.


The second hand is fine, as with the catalog pictures it is seen on certain Komandirskies which also seem to have a flat crown and plainer caseback, as yours does. Otherwise, it is only seen on Amphibians.


----------



## ragnarag

Hihi

i´m kind of new at this hobby and somehow i gat interested in buying a 50-80´s Soviet watch.

I´m kind of stumbled on how to spot the fake one out there.

If someone would be so kind to tell me if this one Original Watch of The Classic of The Soviet Epoch "VOSTOK " 18 Jewels 122142 | eBay

Is fake that would be of great help to me.

Also how you can spot the fakes ( Frankensteins )


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## schnurrp

I think the hands are wrong. They should be like those found on the two examples in this '80 catalog, bottom row.










Those hour and minute hands belong to this watch, the "mini" amphibian:










And the second hand is from another watch with its tail broken off.

It's hard to spot a franken at first but keep posting your choices for review by forum members before buying and you will get the hang of it in time. Be patient and picky and don't buy non-authentic watches, it just encourages the franken sellers. Plenty of good authentic examples out there.

Welcome to the forum!

Oh, and I forgot to add, just my opinion, of course.


----------



## ragnarag

thank you so much for your answer, are there some seller at ebay or some other online shop that specialise in soviet watches and can be trusted?


----------



## 93EXCivic

ragnarag said:


> thank you so much for your answer, are there some seller at ebay or some other online shop that specialise in soviet watches and can be trusted?


asap31, samun_povt, sovieterawatches, svtrrts are all well respected sellers on ebay.


----------



## DolleDolf

romantictime and marchello777mara, and tdn74-2008 are other very good sellers. vympel2209 always has relatively pricy but very nice pieces in great condition.


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## schnurrp

Those sellers are good starting points but not foolproof! If you have time post your choices before buying and/or check the good online collections and catalogs. Sellers don't always know what they have. I have had good luck with non-professional individual sellers if you know what to look for.


----------



## jmreynolds

How legit it this one? No movement pictures. Mark Gordon has a chrome one, but I am wondering about the hands and crown.


----------



## ragnarag

You guys are great thank you all so much.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## munichjoe

found these 2 today in the bay, any thoughts?

3133- after reading the guide a few times nothing really stuck out as being unkosher
291139818990

and a RR wall clock... 
321397775276

the 3133 i should be able to pick up in town this week, Ill get pix then, but I didnt think the price was THAT bad....


----------



## Geoff Adams

munichjoe said:


> found these 2 today in the bay, any thoughts?
> 
> 3133- after reading the guide a few times nothing really stuck out as being unkosher
> 291139818990
> 
> and a RR wall clock...
> 321397775276
> 
> the 3133 i should be able to pick up in town this week, Ill get pix then, but I didnt think the price was THAT bad....


I'm not one of the experts with 3133 chronos, but the font on the bridge stamp says to me that the movement was produced in the period 1995-1997. Note also the silver alloy balance wheel, which suggests post 1993 manufacture.

I think the dial looks like late Soviet era, so pre 1992??? - really need one of the experts to confirm...


----------



## Arizone

Not looking for any advice, just sharing this to inform others.
I purchased this watch a while ago and it just arrived today. I was a bit excited the rare dial looked in alright shape, and for a cheaper price, that I seemed to have ignored other warnings. First, from the seller's pictures you can notice that the stem is visible beside the dial, showing that the case is missing one of the inner rings just below the crystal. In person you can tell the crystal is a bit recessed below the bezel, meaning it might have been replaced. Second, notice the dial doesn't have any 'made in' inscription, yet the caseback has a serial number. Michele's website does list this model, but it has a different caseback with a serial number. Original or not it's typically a red flag to have a serial number without dial inscription. The other oddity I learned today is that it has the rare ratcheting unidirectional bezel, but _not _a matching ratcheting case, making the feature useless.

Unless anyone's interested in the parts, I'll attempt to return it.


----------



## DolleDolf

Dial, hands and bezel look good to me. If the bezel is ratcheting but it does not work on the case the case may be a replacement. Pity if that is the case.


----------



## Perdendosi

DolleDolf said:


> Dial, hands and bezel look good to me. If the bezel is ratcheting but it does not work on the case the case may be a replacement. Pity if that is the case.


Wait, there were Vostoks with ratcheting bezels??

Wow, I've missed something somewhere.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Arizone

DolleDolf said:


> Dial, hands and bezel look good to me. If the bezel is ratcheting but it does not work on the case the case may be a replacement. Pity if that is the case.


Yeah the more I think about it the more I am unsure if it really is bad as I thought.

The thing about the case is that it is fashioned slightly different than most Komandirskies, in order to fit the automatic movement. The caseback and ring is wider like an Amphibian, than the standard Komandirskies. This narrows down possible replacements. I'm still more bothered by the gap around the dial. I know I've seen it happen before, and it seems that the missing metal ring, on my other watches, is attached to the crystal itself and not the case. I'm curious if the replacement crystals from Meranom and Zenitar have the ring, which looks unlikely, or if I can salvage one.

Looking at Michele's two examples, the bezels look the same, but he only mentions one specifically with the ratcheting feature. Perhaps the other ones used the same ratcheted bezel with a cheaper standard case like I have here? This would simply mean only the crystal was replaced.

Here's a picture regardless, it's awfully dirty underneath the bezel.



Perdendosi said:


> Wait, there were Vostoks with ratcheting bezels??
> 
> Wow, I've missed something somewhere.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, it appears a few models were equipped with the feature. If Vostok had the capability to produce these things it's a wonder why they didn't do it more often, even today.


----------



## michele

Arizone said:


> Yeah the more I think about it the more I am unsure if it really is bad as I thought.
> 
> The thing about the case is that it is fashioned slightly different than most Komandirskies, in order to fit the automatic movement. The caseback and ring is wider like an Amphibian, than the standard Komandirskies. This narrows down possible replacements. I'm still more bothered by the gap around the dial. I know I've seen it happen before, and it seems that the missing metal ring, on my other watches, is attached to the crystal itself and not the case. I'm curious if the replacement crystals from Meranom and Zenitar have the ring, which looks unlikely, or if I can salvage one.
> 
> Looking at Michele's two examples, the bezels look the same, but he only mentions one specifically with the ratcheting feature. Perhaps the other ones used the same ratcheted bezel with a cheaper standard case like I have here? This would simply mean only the crystal was replaced.
> 
> Here's a picture regardless, it's awfully dirty underneath the bezel.
> 
> Yes, it appears a few models were equipped with the feature. If Vostok had the capability to produce these things it's a wonder why they didn't do it more often, even today.


Hi, your watch looks totally correct, except of course for the missing crystal ring. Probably that was a "fast" attempt to install the crystal without using proper tools - and i must admit that i did the same with some of my Vostoks, until i have learnt to install crystals with ring, without breaking the crystal each time (i have broken at least 10 crystals in many years :-x).

About the caseback, i have seen both versions, with or without engraving, i think it's OK. The ratchet bezel is kinda unusual and rare, and often present on this dial and also on Buran/KGB dials. The ratcheting is obtained simply glueing an "open" copper ring on the case, one tip of the ring is slightly lifted upwards, acting like a "tooth" under the bezel grooves. A very simple system, prone to break after some time, so it's also possible that it has been removed on your watch. Or maybe the factory ran out of those copper rings, or they simply got bored of them - it's hard to figure what was running in the Chistopol's heads during those years.

Anyway, i think that the ratchet ring can be rebuilt, if you have some skills in cutting thin sheets of copper.


----------



## sq100

Like Michele wrote I agree this looks like a correct case to me too.... the generalskie.


----------



## Arizone

michele said:


> Hi, your watch looks totally correct, except of course for the missing crystal ring. Probably that was a "fast" attempt to install the crystal without using proper tools - and i must admit that i did the same with some of my Vostoks, until i have learnt to install crystals with ring, without breaking the crystal each time (i have broken at least 10 crystals in many years :-x).
> 
> About the caseback, i have seen both versions, with or without engraving, i think it's OK. The ratchet bezel is kinda unusual and rare, and often present on this dial and also on Buran/KGB dials. The ratcheting is obtained simply glueing an "open" copper ring on the case, one tip of the ring is slightly lifted upwards, acting like a "tooth" under the bezel grooves. A very simple system, prone to break after some time, so it's also possible that it has been removed on your watch. Or maybe the factory ran out of those copper rings, or they simply got bored of them - it's hard to figure what was running in the Chistopol's heads during those years.
> 
> Anyway, i think that the ratchet ring can be rebuilt, if you have some skills in cutting thin sheets of copper.


Thanks for the reply!
I went ahead and swapped the crystal with an original I popped out of another Komandirskie case, by hand. This one it came with is far thinner so I doubt the tension ring would fit even if I managed to get it out separately.
Would you happen to have a picture of one of those copper rings so maybe I can create something similar? Although I guess it wouldn't be too hard to work something out.

Here's a picture along with the a toy I received from Amil shortly before this one.


----------



## arandur

Hi all!

Much as I wish that my first post in the Russian watch thread was not a "hey, is this real or a reproduction?" question, I will soon amend that with more posts of better content! On to the aforementioned question...is it legit?





















Let me know, if I need to provide further information! Thank you in advance!


----------



## schnurrp

What struck me immediately is the mismatch between the cyrillic "paketa" and the latin city names. The two should agree on an authentic watch. Also the authentic Raketa 24 hour world time watch has a smoothly curving crystal, not the raised flat one shown, with a black crystal bezel instead of chrome. Finally, the movement would need to be authenticated and should be stamped 2623 on the main bridge.

I think using your first posts for the purpose of authenticating is totally appropriate. If you continue in the hobby you will have plenty of opportunity to contribute as your knowledge increases.

From an '89 catalog (https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...17478576863038626&oid=113098239036073221216):










Welcome to the forum!


----------



## emoscambio

munichjoe said:


> found these 2 today in the bay, any thoughts?
> 
> 3133- after reading the guide a few times nothing really stuck out as being unkosher
> 291139818990
> 
> and a RR wall clock...
> 321397775276
> 
> the 3133 i should be able to pick up in town this week, Ill get pix then, but I didnt think the price was THAT bad....


For 3133 questions, Polmax3133 is an (the) expert to PM.

The RR clock went quite cheap, the key is not original but handier than the big Chistopol one.


----------



## emoscambio

SovAm said:


> So, here's another one I'm not quite sure about. This one is still in the mail. What do the experts think - museum piece as the seller claims or straight from the lab of Dr. Frankenstein?
> 
> WWII Military Soviet Red Army Kirovskie 1940`s Watch | eBay
> 
> Thank you, much obliged!


For Kirovskie, "pmwas" is an (the) expert to PM.


----------



## arandur

schnurrp said:


> What struck me immediately is the mismatch between the cyrillic "paketa" and the latin city names. The two should agree on an authentic watch. Also the authentic Raketa 24 hour world time watch has a smoothly curving crystal, not the raised flat one shown, with a black crystal bezel instead of chrome. Finally, the movement would need to be authenticated and should be stamped 2623 on the main bridge.
> 
> I think using your first posts for the purpose of authenticating is totally appropriate. If you continue in the hobby you will have plenty of opportunity to contribute as your knowledge increases.
> 
> From an '89 catalog (https://plus.google.com/photos/113098239036073221216/albums/5517478410848565953/5517478576863038626?banner=pwa&pid=5517478576863038626&oid=113098239036073221216):
> 
> Welcome to the forum!


I did wonder about the mismatch of Cyrillic and Latin letters, though the very small amount of information I had uncovered did reveal no less than three versions of the watch (one for export with Cyrillic brand name and Latin cities, one with Cyrillic brand name and cities, and one with Cyrillic brand name and Latin letters given as gifts by an Italian cardiac drug company). How many of these are actual versions, I am not sure.

The curved crystal did seem a bit suspicious.

Thank you for the encouragement, and I look forward to contributing.


----------



## arandur

schnurrp said:


> From an '89 catalog (https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...17478576863038626&oid=113098239036073221216):


If this source is to be trusted, the chrome bezel and raised glass is an actual version: Rare Ussr Russian Watch Raketa 24 Hours Polar World Zestril 232


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## schnurrp

arandur said:


> I did wonder about the mismatch of Cyrillic and Latin letters, though the very small amount of information I had uncovered did reveal no less than three versions of the watch (one for export with Cyrillic brand name and Latin cities, one with Cyrillic brand name and cities, and one with Cyrillic brand name and Latin letters given as gifts by an Italian cardiac drug company). How many of these are actual versions, I am not sure.
> 
> The curved crystal did seem a bit suspicious.
> 
> Thank you for the encouragement, and I look forward to contributing.


Raketa evidently produced a number of trademarked watches and other limited runs, especially toward the end of the soviet union, that never showed up in any catalog. The problem with authenticating these is the lack of any real provenance. Buying one from one of the gifted doctors you mentioned would work for me but rarely happens. In the two catalogs I have available, the 24 hr. world time dials are shown in two versions only, one all cyrillic for domestic distribution and one all latin for export.


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## arandur

schnurrp said:


> Raketa evidently produced a number of trademarked watches and other limited runs, especially toward the end of the soviet union, that never showed up in any catalog. The problem with authenticating these is the lack of any real provenance. Buying one from one of the gifted doctors you mentioned would work for me but rarely happens. In the two catalogs I have available, the 24 hr. world time dials are shown in two versions only, one all cyrillic for domestic distribution and one all latin for export.


Does the one with all Latin have Raketa in Latin or Cyrillic?


----------



## schnurrp

arandur said:


> Does the one with all Latin have Raketa in Latin or Cyrillic?


Latin, "Raketa", which means "Rocket" in Russian. The cyrillic is "Paketa".

It also has "made in USSR" instead of "сделано в СССР" found on the cyrillic domestic version.

This is a very consistent practice for all Russian watches, not just Raketas.


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## GuessWho

What do you guys think of this one:




















Looks ok to me, but I do not know a lot about Urals (other than the fact I want one!).


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## michele

GuessWho said:


> What do you guys think of this one:
> View attachment 1496370
> View attachment 1496371
> View attachment 1496372
> 
> 
> Looks ok to me, but I do not know a lot about Urals (other than the fact I want one!).


looks totally correct to me, crown included. Movement from Chelyabinsk is OK too (version without central second hand). Don't remember the catalogue reference though.


----------



## GuessWho

michele said:


> looks totally correct to me, crown included. Movement from Chelyabinsk is OK too (version without central second hand). Don't remember the catalogue reference though.


Thanks Michele! I thought it was OK, I have gotten a few watches from this seller that were all legit (and keeping good time), his prices are great too.

Am I correct in thinking that is radium lume?


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## arandur

schnurrp said:


> Latin, "Raketa", which means "Rocket" in Russian. The cyrillic is "Paketa".
> 
> It also has "made in USSR" instead of "сделано в СССР" found on the cyrillic domestic version.
> 
> This is a very consistent practice for all Russian watches, not just Raketas.


Thank you!


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## emoscambio

GuessWho said:


> What do you guys think of this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks ok to me, but I do not know a lot about Urals (other than the fact I want one!).


The issue of two-hand versus three-hand Ural has been quite disputed for many years.

There was an early, thinner brass-cased 15 jewels Ural without second hand, based on the two handed Molnia 3600 (for blind people), and a thicker alloy cased 16 jewels Ural with sweep second hand, and a very clumsy and visible additional module in the middle, thus the thicker case (in part also because of issues in fixing on an alloy case a steel back).

The 1960 catalogue does not mention anymore the early ones, that were build according to a pre 1956 norm, and not the 1956 three-hands 16 jewels norm.

A rare steel-cased, 15 jewels Ural has been sighted too.

There have been several mid-fifties Slava (2ChZ) sub-second ChK6 movements shamefully implanted in late alloy cased Ural.

Regarding the design, the same watch as yours existed as 16 jewels:

Let me cite the 1960 Catalogue

Часы наручные «Урал» ЗОЗЧН изготовляют по ТУ 14-162-56 с часовой, минутной и центральной секундной стрелками.
Часовой механизм диаметром 36 мм со стальным анкерным ходом на 16 рубиновых камнях. Продолжительность хода от одной полной заводки пружины не менее 32 ч. Средний суточный ход ± 45 сек.

Часы выпускают в оформлениях: ЧН-201К/2, ЧН-201К/5, ЧН-201К/6, ЧН-201К/7, ЧН-201К/9, ЧН-201К/10, ЧН-201К/11, ЧН-201К/12.

Оформление ЧН-201К/2
Корпус из специального алюминиевого сплава, анодированного и окрашенного под цвет золота, диаметром 39,6 мм; крышка из нержавеющей стали.
Заводная головка золоченая.
Стекло органическое сферической формы.
Циферблат серебреный с полной оцифровкой 1-12. Шкала с шестьюдесятью делениями, каждое пятое деле. ние покрыто светомассои. Цифры, шкала и надписи на циферблате черные.
Стрелки золоченые, часовая и минутная ажурные со светомассои.

The "Ural" wristwatch 303 ChN is produced according to (the 1956 norm) TU 14-162-56 with hour, minute and second hands.
Watch movement of 36mm diameter on 16 jewels with steel anchor escapement. Running duration (power reserve) from one full winding of the spring not less than 32 hr. Average daily rate ± 45 sec.

The watches are released in the designs:
ChN-201К/2, ChN-201К/5, ChN-201К/6, ChN-201К/7, ChN-201К/9, ChN-201К/10, ChN-201К/11, ChN-201К/12.

Design ChN-201К/2
Case in special aluminum alloy, anodized and coated in golden color, of 39.6 mm diameter; case back in stainless steel
Gilded winding crown.
Synthetic glass of spherical shape.
Silver-color dial with full digit marking 1-12. Scale with 60 subdivisions, every fifth subdivision coated with luminous material. Black digits, scale and writings on the dial. Gilded hands, skeleton hour and minute hands with luminous material.


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## GuessWho

Thanks for the interesting info Emos! I would love to find a catalog that shows the same watch I bought, doing my research I found this example on watch.ru, except it has a silver case instead of the glided one I ordered. He says his is marked 1957, the one I ordered has 1958 marked on it (I cannot make out the month from the pictures however).


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## hnguyen

Does this 3017 look legit to you guys?


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## Ham2

Looks correct to me - crown and stem might be a replacement


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## Geoff Adams

Just wondering what comrades think of this watch - it looks like a Vostok Amphibia 2409 17j from the late 80s that Michele lists in his collection. The case seems good, as do the hour and minutes hands, but the case back and seconds hand (no meatball) make me scratch my head. Love the dial...


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## valter-g

Can't say for sure, comrade Geoff, can be made from leftover pieces of late 80's. Russian cosmic forces were formed in 1992, that fits the dial without "made in..." I've seen another design, without bronze squares on the dial. The red second is common on many komandirskies. And yes, the back cover isn't the one usually seen on komandirskie IMHO.


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## emoscambio

I just googled images for "ВКС МО РОССИИ"
Yours seem to be one of the legit models...


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## sq100

Geoff Adams said:


> Just wondering what comrades think of this watch - it looks like a Vostok Amphibia 2409 17j from the late 80s that Michele lists in his collection. The case seems good, as do the hour and minutes hands, but the case back and seconds hand (no meatball) make me scratch my head. Love the dial...


Looks like a komandirskie movement/dial in an amphibia case (with amphibia bezel and folded crown) and komandirskie (?) type caseback. The 2409 doesn't have a date ;-)


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## Geoff Adams

Sounds like I suspected - an amphibian/komandirskie franken with a very nice legit dial. I think I'll hang on for the real thing - thank you very much Comrades for your valuable insight with this watch - I'm extremely greatful!!!


----------



## rastaferio

(I've posted this in another thread, but I think that this one might be more appropriate. Mods - apologies for the duplicate)

Ever since I first came across these old Raketa 24hr watches, I've been looking to secure one for myself. Unbeknownst to me though, there market is rife with fakes and price markup. I've read quite a bit recently on the watches, but Im no expert and frankly I've rarely even worn watches until now. The links that I've attached below are the style that has really caught my eye, but it seems like the price (#2,3,4) is quite high compared to others available. Could someone with much more experience with these watches take a look at the supplied links to let me know the likelihood of a fake, whether you know if the seller is trustworthy, and also recommend what a decent price might be? Many thanks.

USSR Russian Watch RAKETA 24 Hour 115 | eBay

USSR Watch RAKETA Radioroom 24H 24 Hour Polar Antarctic Goldplated Beige Dia | eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USSR-watch-...216610521?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item25894240d9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USSR-watch-...291154077?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item258db3b29d

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raketa-24-H...450293584?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item338f775150


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## schnurrp

rastaferio said:


> (I've posted this in another thread, but I think that this one might be more appropriate. Mods - apologies for the duplicate)
> 
> Ever since I first came across these old Raketa 24hr watches, I've been looking to secure one for myself. Unbeknownst to me though, there market is rife with fakes and price markup. I've read quite a bit recently on the watches, but Im no expert and frankly I've rarely even worn watches until now. The links that I've attached below are the style that has really caught my eye, but it seems like the price (#2,3,4) is quite high compared to others available. Could someone with much more experience with these watches take a look at the supplied links to let me know the likelihood of a fake, whether you know if the seller is trustworthy, and also recommend what a decent price might be? Many thanks.
> 
> USSR Russian Watch RAKETA 24 Hour 115 | eBay
> 
> USSR Watch RAKETA Radioroom 24H 24 Hour Polar Antarctic Goldplated Beige Dia | eBay
> 
> USSR Watch RAKETA Radioroom 24H 24 Hour Polar Antarctic Chromed Beige Dia | eBay
> 
> USSR Watch RAKETA 24H 24 Hour Polar Antarctic Russian Silver Dial | eBay
> 
> RAKETA 24 Hour Cal 2623 Wrist Watch Special Edition Russian Soviet Union USSR | eBay


They all look authentic to me.

#1 has some condition problems that would keep me from buying.
#2 appears to have matching papers and the look of a watch that's never been worn and will probably sell at close to that price but it's too expensive for me.
#3 ditto #2 if the papers match. I couldn't see anything but the first and last picture.
#4 ditto #2
#5 looks authentic and in good condition and a bargain if you don't mind that it is not soviet-era but "made in Russia" after the fall.

The NOS watches appear legit but papers can be forged so...anyway I don't know if you could get your money back at those prices. I guess it depends on what offer is accepted.

Welcome to the forum!

Oh, and I don't know why the seller is calling some of these "radio room" watches. I don't think it applies. Just hype, in my opinion.


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## valter-g

Geoff Adams said:


> Sounds like I suspected - an amphibian/komandirskie franken with a very nice legit dial. I think I'll hang on for the real thing - thank you very much Comrades for your valuable insight with this watch - I'm extremely greatful!!!


The right decision, comrade! Those Space forces watches are not rare (although some sellers will claim "issued only to comsmonauts") and you'll surely find one legit sooner or later. Not to mention I'll be your competition on that search, but that's the part of the hobby ;-)


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## valter-g

schnurrp said:


> They all look authentic to me.
> 
> #1 has some condition problems that would keep me from buying.
> #2 appears to have matching papers and the look of a watch that's never been worn and will probably sell at close to that price but it's too expensive for me.
> #3 ditto #2 if the papers match. I couldn't see anything but the first and last picture.
> #4 ditto #2
> #5 looks authentic and in good condition and a bargain if you don't mind that it is not soviet-era but "made in Russia" after the fall.
> 
> The NOS watches appear legit but papers can be forged so...anyway I don't know if you could get your money back at those prices. I guess it depends on what offer is accepted.
> 
> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Oh, and I don't know why the seller is calling some of these "radio room" watches. I don't think it applies. Just hype, in my opinion.


Comrade Schnurrp, thanks for this very educational post!
I see #2 and 3 show the same (partial) pic of movement. As it's the same seller, probably he just saved some time, but not 100% correct IMHO. Anyway, seems possible he got a hoard of good NOS watches from some local source.


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## schnurrp

valter-g said:


> Comrade Schnurrp, thanks for this very educational post!
> I see #2 and 3 show the same (partial) pic of movement. As it's the same seller, probably he just saved some time, but not 100% correct IMHO. Anyway, seems possible he got a hoard of good NOS watches from some local source.


I must say, comrade valter-g, I agree it's possible he has a hoard, and although this seller is as liberal, sometimes, with his "NOS" labeling as others are with their "military" labeling these look pretty legit. I would probably make an offer if they were at a more affordable (for me) price.


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## rastaferio

schnurrp said:


> They all look authentic to me.
> 
> #1 has some condition problems that would keep me from buying.
> #2 appears to have matching papers and the look of a watch that's never been worn and will probably sell at close to that price but it's too expensive for me.
> #3 ditto #2 if the papers match. I couldn't see anything but the first and last picture.
> #4 ditto #2
> #5 looks authentic and in good condition and a bargain if you don't mind that it is not soviet-era but "made in Russia" after the fall.
> 
> The NOS watches appear legit but papers can be forged so...anyway I don't know if you could get your money back at those prices. I guess it depends on what offer is accepted.
> 
> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Oh, and I don't know why the seller is calling some of these "radio room" watches. I don't think it applies. Just hype, in my opinion.





valter-g said:


> Comrade Schnurrp, thanks for this very educational post!
> I see #2 and 3 show the same (partial) pic of movement. As it's the same seller, probably he just saved some time, but not 100% correct IMHO. Anyway, seems possible he got a hoard of good NOS watches from some local source.


Many thanks for the responses!


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## Carlos Cartes

Dear Comrades,

After lurking in this awesome forum for some time I decided to begin this hobby with a Raketa Perpetual calendar, the watch that captured my attention is this:

Original RAKETA Perpetual Calendar Emerkom Ministry of Emergenci Russian Watch | eBay

So "la question de rigueur" is if that watch is a franken or not and if the price is right.

Best regards.


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## 93EXCivic

Soviet Russian USSR Tochmekh VOSTOK POLJOT Watch 1920s Kirovskie 1MCHZ RAKETA | eBay

Is this sucker a franken? To me it looks too good to be from the '20s but I thought that seller was one of the reputable ones.


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## schnurrp

93EXCivic said:


> Soviet Russian USSR Tochmekh VOSTOK POLJOT Watch 1920s Kirovskie 1MCHZ RAKETA | eBay
> 
> Is this sucker a franken? To me it looks too good to be from the '20s but I thought that seller was one of the reputable ones.


Some of those old dials hold up extremely well but I don't know what happened to its original hands.

Look here:

slls-watches: Tochmekh Mockba (


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## schnurrp

Carlos Cartes said:


> Dear Comrades,
> 
> After lurking in this awesome forum for some time I decided to begin this hobby with a Raketa Perpetual calendar, the watch that captured my attention is this:
> 
> Original RAKETA Perpetual Calendar Emerkom Ministry of Emergenci Russian Watch | eBay
> 
> So "la question de rigueur" is if that watch is a franken or not and if the price is right.
> 
> Best regards.


I guess Emercon was/is the soviet/russian equivalent of FEMA in the US and I guess it's possible that some Raketas were ordered from Petrovorets with this logo for distribution. A felt Emercon patch for sale on ebay:



























I've never seen such a watch before but I'm leaning toward authentic and would be interested but not at a higher than normal price which I think this is, particularly since the crystal, which should be a smoothly curving one so the small writing at the perimeter is not distorted, has been replaced with a raised-flat one.


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## Geoff Adams

93EXCivic said:


> Soviet Russian USSR Tochmekh VOSTOK POLJOT Watch 1920s Kirovskie 1MCHZ RAKETA | eBay
> 
> Is this sucker a franken? To me it looks too good to be from the '20s but I thought that seller was one of the reputable ones.


There's some interesting discussion about this very watch on my Sturmanskie thread on this link: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/sturmanskie-shturmanskie-gagarin-17-jewels-circa-late-1950s-%96-excellent-example-1031945-3.html

For me the hands and crown are franken - the rest of the watch, according to others on my thread may well be authentic enough. Press on the link to the watch at the bottom of the top post by Comrade slls. The conversation is spread out over a number of pages, and interrupted, but easy enough to follow...


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## Geoff Adams

schnurrp said:


> I guess Emercon was/is the soviet/russian equivalent of FEMA in the US and I guess it's possible that some Raketas were ordered from Petrovorets with this logo for distribution. A felt Emercon patch for sale on ebay:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen such a watch before but I'm leaning toward authentic and would be interested but not at a higher than normal price which I think this is, particularly since the crystal, which should be a smoothly curving one so the small writing at the perimeter is not distorted, has been replaced with a raised-flat one.


My Vostok Cadet EMERCOM commemorative/presentation watch - you can just make out the insignia star beneath the hands in the centre&#8230;


----------



## blanchy

Hello comrades,
Does this plastic case vostok look genuine? 









































Thanks


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## schnurrp

blanchy said:


> Hello comrades,
> Does this plastic case vostok look genuine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


No, wrong dial. Only one I'm aware of from Michele:


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## blanchy

Thanks comrade. 
Do you think it is worth buying even with the wrong dial? The plastic case seems to be pretty rare


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## schnurrp

blanchy said:


> Thanks comrade.
> Do you think it is worth buying even with the wrong dial? The plastic case seems to be pretty rare


Not in my opinion. Right now they don't seem that rare. This one, near mint, sold last week for less than $50 delivered. I've seen several this year all with cases nicer than that one and correct dial. Keep looking.

Might be worth buying as a parts watch if the movement is working well and the price is very right!


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## blanchy

Thanks again for your very helpful comments. 
I will keep looking but I may get this one for parts as you said it has been serviced and keeps good time so it would be good for parts


----------



## Carlos Cartes

schnurrp said:


> I guess Emercon was/is the soviet/russian equivalent of FEMA in the US and I guess it's possible that some Raketas were ordered from Petrovorets with this logo for distribution. A felt Emercon patch for sale on ebay:
> 
> I've never seen such a watch before but I'm leaning toward authentic and would be interested but not at a higher than normal price which I think this is, particularly since the crystal, which should be a smoothly curving one so the small writing at the perimeter is not distorted, has been replaced with a raised-flat one.


Thanks a lot for the information, I will wait until some better opportunity appears on the horizon.


----------



## kenb86

Opinions on this watch? I'm still trying to learn about these. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks!
Sturmanskie Russian Chronograph Shturmanskie | eBay


----------



## blackdot

Hey guys, any red flags? Many thanks!


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## schnurrp

kenb86 said:


> Opinions on this watch? I'm still trying to learn about these. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks!
> Sturmanskie Russian Chronograph Shturmanskie | eBay


Modern Russian sturmanskie re-make with chrome-plated brass case and crowns, I believe. I would expect the small second hand to be black and the small red counting hand to have an arrow tip. Here's one in a 2004 catalog. Small hands also have tails. Also the interior bezel has a white triangle.

I would probably have passed especially at that price which I consider too much unless it's a very special soviet model. However it will make a good useful wearing watch if the 3133 movement is right.


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## f3rdin

blackdot said:


> Hey guys, any red flags? Many thanks!


It seems that the hands are wrong, but maybe it is just me... !


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## phil55

Hi 
This is my first post on this forum so not sure how best to proceed but I am interested in a Sputnik Kirovskie Poljot being currently offered on Ebay (uk) with Id number 271509843871 and would appreciate some advice, is its legit or a fake Thanks in advance Phil


----------



## valter-g

Wellcome Phil!

Here's the pic:








The dial is probably original, but ugly damaged just where the map of Europe is. Second hand is wrong, the other two hands perhaps too. I'd wait (or search) for better example.


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## GuessWho

phil55 said:


> Hi
> This is my first post on this forum so not sure how best to proceed but I am interested in a Sputnik Kirovskie Poljot being currently offered on Ebay (uk) with Id number 271509843871 and would appreciate some advice, is its legit or a fake Thanks in advance Phil


Wrong hands for sure, I am also highly suspicious of that dial (the longitude and latitude lines shouldn't be covered like that). Here is Mark Gordon's example:








And another one (Mark's is missing the "sputnik" on the second hand):


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## phil55

Thanks for the advice and I will take it and keep looking. Phil 

Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk


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## RedJohn

Hello everybody, 
First of all, I would like to apologise if the answer to my question is straight forward and it might seem like a dumb question but I hope you can pardon me as I am new to the world of watches. Especially Russians. I would like to know if this watch with 3133 is legit. Saw it on a local online shopping website app.... Sorry if the pictures are limited but I will try to get more if needed. Thank you.

















Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk


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## emoscambio

RedJohn said:


> Hello everybody,
> First of all, I would like to apologise if the answer to my question is straight forward and it might seem like a dumb question but I hope you can pardon me as I am new to the world of watches. Especially Russians. I would like to know if this watch with 3133 is legit. Saw it on a local online shopping website app.... Sorry if the pictures are limited but I will try to get more if needed. Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk


The watch has a custom factory made dial for the former Kyrgyzstan Airlines (1992-2005).

No reason to doubt about its genuineness, I think!


----------



## Geoff Adams

Wondering what you might think of this one... I've been staring at it for some days now and can't make up my mind. The dial is of the Russian Space forces, however it seems to differ in some respects to other dials of this sort that I have seen. On other dials there seems to be a blue hue at the bottom of the dial. Also, on this dial the logo and writing seems just that little bit thicker - but it's hard to tell. Also, the indices do not seem evenly placed. And of course, this dial is not set in the usual silver coloured case, this case looks gold, and so does the bezel look gold. I would appreciate your thoughts on this one...


----------



## sq100

Geoff Adams said:


> Wondering what you might think of this one... I've been staring at it for some days now and can't make up my mind. The dial is of the Russian Space forces, however it seems to differ in some respects to other dials of this sort that I have seen. On other dials there seems to be a blue hue at the bottom of the dial. Also, on this dial the logo and writing seems just that little bit thicker - but it's hard to tell. Also, the indices do not seem evenly placed. And of course, this dial is not set in the usual silver coloured case, this case looks gold, and so does the bezel look gold. I would appreciate your thoughts on this one...


I can't tell you for sure, but there are no alarm bells for me, looks like alot of dials have had small variations over the years. Just like my flightdecks below. I'd say go for it if it's available at a good price.


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## schnurrp

Geoff Adams said:


> Wondering what you might think of this one... I've been staring at it for some days now and can't make up my mind. The dial is of the Russian Space forces, however it seems to differ in some respects to other dials of this sort that I have seen. On other dials there seems to be a blue hue at the bottom of the dial. Also, on this dial the logo and writing seems just that little bit thicker - but it's hard to tell. Also, the indices do not seem evenly placed. And of course, this dial is not set in the usual silver coloured case, this case looks gold, and so does the bezel look gold. I would appreciate your thoughts on this one...


All bets are off, usually, for watches from this era just after the fall, so many variations exist. I'm pretty sure your concerns about the dial being made up are unfounded and anyway there's no way to know for sure since no provenance exists that I know of. Maybe amil would have an opinion. A legitimate example for one collecting this dial type, in my opinion.


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## Geoff Adams

Thank you gentlemen, Comrades sq100 and Schnurrp both!!! I have 5 pieces I am watching the moment, some more expensive than others, so I am having to make some pretty robust choices - however it is really helpful to know that this one is probably legit. Many thanks!!!


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## hnguyen

Good afternoon, Comrades! Would you please tell me your idea about this OKEAH?




























Thanks very much.


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## 103ssv

Chromed case and pushers, too new mechanism, so this is a Franken; sorry.


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## RedJohn

emoscambio said:


> The watch has a custom factory made dial for the former Kyrgyzstan Airlines (1992-2005).
> 
> No reason to doubt about its genuineness, I think!


Thank you sir!

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk


----------



## hnguyen

Thanks for your reply.



103ssv said:


> Chromed case and pushers, too new mechanism, so this is a Franken; sorry.


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## Geoff Adams

hnguyen said:


> Good afternoon, Comrades! Would you please tell me your idea about this OKEAH?
> 
> Thanks very much.


Hello Comrade hnguyen,

Your decision to enquire about this watch on the forum is a good one!

Please note the English writing "23 Jewels" on the movement. This is not correct for an Okeah, this information must be written in Russian Cyrillic writing. I agree with Comrade 103ssv - this watch is a franken.

You may find this thread extremely helpful in any future search you do for Okeah and other 3133 movement watches: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html

Good luck with your search for an authentic Okeah watch, and when you do eventually add an Okeah to your collection, please do post up a thread with pics and wrist shots of this iconic timepiece .


----------



## phil55

As an excise on learning to spot what's real and what's not ,I found these 3 on the bay (uk) .I think they are all not what the sellers claim. Though I would ask for opinions. Phil


----------



## Ham2

phil55 said:


> As an excise on learning to spot what's real and what's not ,I found these 3 on the bay (uk) .I think they are all not what the sellers claim. Though I would ask for opinions. Phil


All fake Sturmanskies


----------



## GuessWho

Ham2 said:


> All fake Sturmanskies


+1, all of them have modern repro dials, along with other inconsistencies...


----------



## BizzyC

Good morning Comrades -
Would love to get your thoughts on this Vostok. It appears to be in the 470 case but its polished - all my others are brushed. Also, the meatball second hand is chrome, not red. Everything else looks to be in order in my novice opinion. Comments are appreciated.









Thank you!!


----------



## schnurrp

BizzyC said:


> Good morning Comrades -
> Would love to get your thoughts on this Vostok. It appears to be in the 470 case but its polished - all my others are brushed. Also, the meatball second hand is chrome, not red. Everything else looks to be in order in my novice opinion. Comments are appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you!!


You may have a point(s). I have found it in two separate respected collections with brushed body and red second hand and also numberless gear bezel (different from your pictured):

Antonov's










Ill-Phil's










Antonov also shows one in what appears to be a smooth case










In general, looking at your posted watch I would conclude that at the very least the hands have been off and roughly treated or from a different watch, etc., since the loss of black finish on the hour hand does not match the condition of the rest of the watch. Personally, I would pass on this not so rare 470 unless the price is very good and then maybe buy as a parts watch.

This one for sale now on ebay with some condition problems but matches the others above:


----------



## BizzyC

Comrade Schnurrp -

Thank you so much for your thorough response.

I actually already own the watch - came in a set but I didn't spend much so it's ok.

You bring up a good point about the hands showing wear when the rest of the watch is in good shape.

My conclusion is the same as yours - franken. 

I think I'll pick up a colorful strap and wear it without remorse.

Thanks again!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## unwatched

At first blush, looks OK to me, but I am not an expert. What say you comrades?


----------



## 93EXCivic

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410566720

I haven't seen a swing lug Amphibian with a dial like that. Franken?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dutchassasin

I have been eyeballing this neptune on the bay and want to know if its the real deal. 
Things i noticed what i think is not correct: Replaced crown, silver sweep seconds hand (should be red?), caseback (no neptune image).
What is correct: dial, raised indexes, bracelet, black bezel (although there was a version with plain bezel and silver sweep seconds hands)

Thanks for your time, lets hope it doesnt sell for to mutch $$$


----------



## 103ssv

Franken as hell, only the dial is Neptune, the rest is plain Amphibia.
If real Neptune the bezel should have the same color as the dial (and the case back as you mentioned).

103


----------



## dutchassasin

103ssv said:


> Franken as hell, only the dial is Neptune, the rest is plain Amphibia.
> If real Neptune the bezel should have the same color as the dial (and the case back as you mentioned).
> 
> 103


This particular piece is a soviet period one, not the colourfull re-issue from the year 2000s. 
Only the 2000s model have a bezel with the same colour as the dial.


----------



## Odinorog

Hello,

First time posting, long time lurker and russian watch afficionado. I have this watch that was previously used by my late grandfather. Nothing special just a watch I remember him wearing while woodworking and poking around his datcha. I am russian and have been living for the past 25 years in Finland. So greetings to all fellow Finns! I'll include some photos, I didn't take a photo of the case back because it didn't have have any markings and really worn It's made of stainless steel and I think it has been changed at some point. Oh, and the bracelet seems yo have been changed at some point. The current bracelet had been gold plated but is bare and really worn.

Any help is appreciated!

Sorry for the crappy photos, my only digital camera right now is my phone.


----------



## schnurrp

Odinorog said:


> Hello,
> 
> First time posting, long time lurker and russian watch afficionado. I have this watch that was previously used by my late grandfather. Nothing special just a watch I remember him wearing while woodworking and poking around his datcha. I am russian and have been living for the past 25 years in Finland. So greetings to all fellow Finns! I'll include some photos, I didn't take a photo of the case back because it didn't have have any markings and really worn It's made of stainless steel and I think it has been changed at some point. Oh, and the bracelet seems yo have been changed at some point. The current bracelet had been gold plated but is bare and really worn.
> 
> Any help is appreciated!
> 
> Sorry for the crappy photos, my only digital camera right now is my phone.


Welcome to the forum, comrade!

Legit. Your provenance is perfect. Soviet watches were often sold without bands I've been told. Here's a similar one from a 1967 catalog for the domestic market. Your grandfather's is for export, thus the Latin wording on the dial: https://plus.google.com/photos/113098239036073221216/albums/5982862021928198929?banner=pwa


----------



## Don Logan

Is this a Volmax re-issue in a vintage case with a genuine Okeah case back?

Okean Shturmanskie POLJOT Chronograp Military Navy Watch USSR RARE | eBay

:think:


----------



## NotMe71

Okay since my first Russian was kind of a bust, neat watch almost too small for my wife...

I found this on eBay:
Vintage Mens Russian VOSTOK Military KOMANDIRSKIE Watch Black Dial Tank Works | eBay

I know of Vostoks, and this is the one I would like, but is it real? How hard would it be to replace the crystal (with sapphire hopefully as I work around a TON of rock walls)


----------



## Perdendosi

NotMe71 said:


> Okay since my first Russian was kind of a bust, neat watch almost too small for my wife...
> 
> I found this on eBay:
> Vintage Mens Russian VOSTOK Military KOMANDIRSKIE Watch Black Dial Tank Works | eBay
> 
> I know of Vostoks, and this is the one I would like, but is it real? How hard would it be to replace the crystal (with sapphire hopefully as I work around a TON of rock walls)


Looks like a fine, early 90s Komandirskie Tankist to me, though I could be mistaken, as the bezel and/or crown could be a replacement for this case type (34)
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-classification-database-draft-424915-4.html#post3205510

Replacing the crystal? Should be fairly easy.
Vostok Watch Acrylic Glass for Komandirskie Meranom.com
(Out of stock right now, but they're really easy to find.)

Replacing with sapphire? I'm less sure, because it might be hard to find domed sapphire that fits. But there are so many suppliers out there, I would think you could come up with something.

I would think that acrylic would be a better bet for you, because though it scratches, it's easily buffed, and it won't shatter like sapphire.


----------



## Don Logan

schnurrp said:


> Modern Russian sturmanskie re-make with chrome-plated brass case and crowns, I believe. I would expect the small second hand to be black and the small red counting hand to have an arrow tip. Here's one in a 2004 catalog. Small hands also have tails. Also the interior bezel has a white triangle.
> 
> I would probably have passed especially at that price which I consider too much unless it's a very special soviet model. However it will make a good useful wearing watch if the 3133 movement is right.


Hey Schnurpp,

I am by no means an expert, but I am pretty sure that the Sturmanskie Kenb86 posted is not a '04 Volmax, but a late "Just get it out the door, shop is closing!" Poljot. Discussed here, half way down.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/incoming-poljot-chronograph-851528.html

I am pretty sure I own one of these(or one very similar, my second hand is black), it has the "hurry up over there at the caseback station, we gotta go!" caseback. I actually sourced the "_appropriate_" red arrow minute hand but then I thought to myself "If this what there were doing in the last days of the Poljot factory, shouldn't I preserve it the way it is?" So I have yet to install it.


----------



## schnurrp

Don Logan said:


> Hey Schnurpp,
> 
> I am by no means an expert, but I am pretty sure that the Sturmanskie Kenb86 posted is not a '04 Volmax, but a late "Just get it out the door, shop is closing!" Poljot. Discussed here, half way down.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/incoming-poljot-chronograph-851528.html
> 
> I am pretty sure I own one of these(or one very similar, my second hand is black), it has the "hurry up over there at the caseback station, we gotta go!" caseback. I actually sourced the "_appropriate_" red arrow minute hand but then I thought to myself "If this what there were doing in the last days of the Poljot factory, shouldn't I preserve it the way it is?" So I have yet to install it.


Could be, Don, I'm sure it happened but that kind of speculative provenance doesn't cut it with me unless the price is real low. I prefer to collect only authentic pieces these days as I have had my share of "could be" purchases and am depending more and more on catalogs and respected collections. Plenty of authentic watches out there still. Now if an old Poljot watch assembler put his personal "hurry-up" chrono on the market that would be different.


----------



## unwatched

unwatched said:


> At first blush, looks OK to me, but I am not an expert. What say you comrades?
> 
> View attachment 1547231
> 
> 
> View attachment 1547232
> 
> 
> View attachment 1547233


I let this one pass by because I wasn't sure and no one chimed in. For future reference, was it OK?


----------



## schnurrp

unwatched said:


> I let this one pass by because I wasn't sure and no one chimed in. For future reference, was it OK?


I am sorry no one responded with help on this watch but for future reference it looks totally legit to me right down to the red second hand. This thread is a popular one and certainly receives its share of attention but the introduction of one watch on top of another means that occasionally one gets overlooked and I would use it more for academic curiosity than decision making. In the future if you need help making a decision on buying a watch and a time limit is involved I would start a thread dedicated to the watch in question.

From a '72 catalog:


----------



## TheNix

Dearest Comrades!

I am in the process of purchasing my first automatic watch, and have set my eyes on the many beautiful and very often unique timepieces from mother Russia/USSR. Lately I've looked at a lot of Amphibias on eBay, and I'd like to lend your expert eyes for a moment. After doing some research, I've weeded out the obvious frankens (English markings, wrong movements etc.), but these two seem legit to me.

*Exhibit 1*
Caliber 2416, 21 jewels, automatic winding. From 1980s. Sold by "romanic_time", which I've read on here can be trusted. Looks good to my untrained eyes.





















*Exhibit 2*
21 jewels, automatic winding, from 1985-1989. He doesn't say anything about the caliber, but I assume it is also a 2416B, since it is the date version. However, as you can see, no engravings are shown on the movement. The bezel is also different, there is no lume at the top, and the paint job seems shoddier. This is sold by timepieces_ua which I've also read here on WUS is reliable.





















*BONUS ROUND!*
This last one I've merely included for your amusement. It's a newer piece, using the 2416B movement in a new case. The dial says "Made in Russia" in the bottom, but then there's the huge KGB CCCP! What happened there? Clearly, this must be a fake? Or can it be an aftermarket dial?


----------



## jmreynolds

Actually, the third one is legitimate. They are sold brand new from the factory with that dial. The first two look good to me, but one of the experts may see something that I missed. I have bought from timepieces_ua and have been pleased with the results.


----------



## smatrixt

Grabbed this off ebay last night. Any insight?


----------



## TheNix

jmreynolds said:


> Actually, the third one is legitimate. They are sold brand new from the factory with that dial.


Haha. The more you know! Thanks for your input.


----------



## hantms

TheNix said:


> Dearest Comrades!
> 
> I am in the process of purchasing my first automatic watch, and have set my eyes on the many beautiful and very often unique timepieces from mother Russia/USSR. Lately I've looked at a lot of Amphibias on eBay, and I'd like to lend your expert eyes for a moment. After doing some research, I've weeded out the obvious frankens (English markings, wrong movements etc.), but these two seem legit to me.
> 
> [...]
> 
> *BONUS ROUND!*
> This last one I've merely included for your amusement. It's a newer piece, using the 2416B movement in a new case. The dial says "Made in Russia" in the bottom, but then there's the huge KGB CCCP! What happened there? Clearly, this must be a fake? Or can it be an aftermarket dial?


All of them are fine, however, the following:

* English/Latin text on the dial or caseback is not something to worry about. These watches have always been exported to fellow communist countries that use the Latin alphabet. Of course you may have a preference for the Cyrillic text as it looks more exotic and that's fine.

* The first two do have an annoying case that requires a specific strap. Note that they don't have regular lugs, so that makes it harder to swap to a leather strap or any other bracelet.

* The final one they currently sell brand new at sites like Chistopolcity.com Nothing wrong with it, but of course it's a bit tacky to have a watch boast 'KGB'.. They probably sell lots to the tourist souvenir trade.


----------



## TheNix

Thank you hantms! I might not go for those exact models. I like the scuba dude, but would actually like one of the versions with 6-9-12 numbers on the dial. So far, I have only found those on the newer versions, so starting to guess I will have to compromise.



hantms said:


> * English/Latin text on the dial or caseback is not something to worry about. These watches have always been exported to fellow communist countries that use the Latin alphabet. Of course you may have a preference for the Cyrillic text as it looks more exotic and that's fine.


I know there are export models, but I was thinking more about when they mix it type sets. For example a dial that has time zones in cyrillic together with "Made in USSR" in English. The two shouldn't be mixed, correct?



hantms said:


> * The first two do have an annoying case that requires a specific strap. Note that they don't have regular lugs, so that makes it harder to swap to a leather strap or any other bracelet.


That is a good point, especially because people always say the straps are terrible. It looks like the versions with a rubber strap have regular lugs, so I think I'll be onn the lookout for one of those. I could also get a new one at the same price, but I think the vintage versions are cooler.



hantms said:


> * The final one they currently sell brand new at sites like Chistopolcity.com Nothing wrong with it, but of course it's a bit tacky to have a watch boast 'KGB'.. They probably sell lots to the tourist souvenir trade.


A genuine KGB watch would be cool, but something tells me they don't advertise it on their watch face. "Me? Secret KGB double agent? Haha, no, that is crazy talk. Anyway, what's the time ..."


----------



## Devil Dog

Hi all,
New to this thread. 
I was wondering if folks could please tell me what they think of this watch? Is it really USSR, or a fake?
If it is genuine, is there a sense of what period of years it came from (e.g., late 80s? early 80s? etc.)?
Thanks much!
Best,
Paul


----------



## hantms

^ That looks beautiful!! Maybe a little too good, but it could be either new old stock or restored / rechromed..? Either way I would pay more than the price of a new current generation 'dirskie for that. 

As an aside, there really aren't any 'fakes' so to say, they're too low value for that. What does happen is that cases and dials get mixed and matched inappropriately, but in the above that looks like a genuine older case with a genuine older dial. To me that's par for the course. A movement pic would be nice, it should have 'SU' stamped on it.


----------



## hantms

TheNix said:


> I know there are export models, but I was thinking more about when they mix it type sets. For example a dial that has time zones in cyrillic together with "Made in USSR" in English. The two shouldn't be mixed, correct?


Right, correct. Although the early 1990s seem to have been quite chaotic in the Russian watch industry, and quite a few watches ended up mixed, genuinely from the factory (or places near the factory..  ) This includes watches with some Amphibia parts and some Komandirskie parts.


----------



## Devil Dog

hantms said:


> ^ That looks beautiful!! Maybe a little too good, but it could be either new old stock or restored / rechromed..? Either way I would pay more than the price of a new current generation 'dirskie for that.
> 
> As an aside, there really aren't any 'fakes' so to say, they're too low value for that. What does happen is that cases and dials get mixed and matched inappropriately, but in the above that looks like a genuine older case with a genuine older dial. To me that's par for the course. A movement pic would be nice, it should have 'SU' stamped on it.


Thank you. It is NOS but, unfortunately, no box or papers. I'd love to find a Vostock box for it to make it complete. I have a post in the WTB forum but no offers yet.


----------



## smatrixt

smatrixt said:


> Grabbed this off ebay last night. Any insight?


Anyone have any idea? I'm kind of leaning toward a new dial in an old case/movement, but I really have no experience with any of these. The numbers don't match any Luch dials I've seen on ebay in the past couple days (the "tail" of the 2 is the easiest to spot. most watches on ebay have a squared off tail whereas this one is taped off)

Just found this one...same dial, different hands (maybe different crown?). Really confusing me.


----------



## schnurrp

smatrixt said:


> Anyone have any idea? I'm kind of leaning toward a new dial in an old case/movement, but I really have no experience with any of these. The numbers don't match any Luch dials I've seen on ebay in the past couple days (the "tail" of the 2 is the easiest to spot. most watches on ebay have a squared off tail whereas this one is taped off)
> 
> Just found this one...same dial, different hands (maybe different crown?). Really confusing me.






























It looks legitimate, a late '80s Luch, in my opinion although I would have stayed away probably unless very cheap simply because I don't see it in any catalog available to me. These dials were not reproduced as far as I know.

The late dial fits the late movement and the case is in very nice condition with minimal wear at the back removal notch and the back has the horizontal tooling characteristic of the Luchs (Poljot backs would be circular). The crown fits the watch and I think it's authentic, but it may be a replacement for the older acorn shape. That's where a catalog picture is nice.

A similar one with reverse color scheme and older logo in '83 catalog:









Your second example also looks legitimate, from what you've shown, except for the huge replacement crown.


----------



## WatchIgnorant

Recent Purchase, was curious what of this watch is actually genuine, if anything.
Thank You Guys For Any Information On This Watch.

























Also Value predictions would be much appreciated. Thank You


----------



## emoscambio

WatchIgnorant said:


> Recent Purchase, was curious what of this watch is actually genuine, if anything. Thank You Guys For Any Information On This Watch. Also Value predictions would be much appreciated. Thank You


Looks right to me, about 10 years old.


----------



## smatrixt

schnurrp said:


> It looks legitimate, a late '80s Luch, in my opinion although I would have stayed away probably unless very cheap simply because I don't see it in any catalog available to me. These dials were not reproduced as far as I know.
> 
> The late dial fits the late movement and the case is in very nice condition with minimal wear at the back removal notch and the back has the horizontal tooling characteristic of the Luchs (Poljot backs would be circular). The crown fits the watch and I think it's authentic, but it may be a replacement for the older acorn shape. That's where a catalog picture is nice.
> 
> A similar one with reverse color scheme and older logo in '83 catalog:
> 
> Your second example also looks legitimate, from what you've shown, except for the huge replacement crown.


Awesome, thanks for the info. Should make a pretty nice dressy watch. Hopefully it gets here before my brother's wedding!


----------



## WatchIgnorant

emoscambio said:


> Looks right to me, about 10 years old.


See. Thats the problem its suppose to be from the late 80s. 
Thanks for your response.


----------



## Arizone

Spotted this "FULL ORIGINAL" Neptune on Ebay, curious at first as to why nobody was bidding on it.

Hand's lume does not match dial lume, but then..."RUS" marked movement. Oh dear...


----------



## JacobC

I bought this one before I had all my hand surgeries done and forgot to ask the expert opinion on its legitimacy. The previous owner told me that he had the glass replaced but no other services during his ownership of the watch. Sorry for the pics, my hands are still not steady. Please let me know if you require better pics.


----------



## dutchassasin

Arizone said:


> Spotted this "FULL ORIGINAL" Neptune on Ebay, curious at first as to why nobody was bidding on it.
> Hand's lume does not match dial lume, but then..."RUS" marked movement. Oh dear...


Actually i won this ebay item, its not very common to see this particular soviet neptune dial. The circle with the neptune logo and boctok logo is two coloured, also round lines instead of the common straight lines.
after looking at different neptunes on the watch.ru forum i saw alot with the hands whiter than the lume on the dial, shure the seller might have replaced it. 
Just look at Amils ones https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/soviet-neptune-three-pieces-869016.html or http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?t=98433&highlight=нептун
As for the movement you are correct and i knew it was replaced and i will try to replace it with a correct one. 
Some neptune examples have a silver seconds hand just like this one, some have a red seconds hand.

I bought it as a WIP watch and will do my best to restore it to its former glory.


----------



## polmax3133

Jacob Casper said:


> I bought this one before I had all my hand surgeries done and forgot to ask the expert opinion on its legitimacy. The previous owner told me that he had the glass replaced but no other services during his ownership of the watch. Sorry for the pics, my hands are still not steady. Please let me know if you require better pics.


Looks good - early 2000s Poljot Aviator.


----------



## Arizone

dutchassasin said:


> Actually i won this ebay item, its not very common to see this particular soviet neptune dial. The circle with the neptune logo and boctok logo is two coloured, also round lines instead of the common straight lines.
> after looking at different neptunes on the watch.ru forum i saw alot with the hands whiter than the lume on the dial, shure the seller might have replaced it.
> Just look at Amils ones https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/soviet-neptune-three-pieces-869016.html or http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?t=98433&highlight=%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD
> As for the movement you are correct and i knew it was replaced and i will try to replace it with a correct one.
> Some neptune examples have a silver seconds hand just like this one, some have a red seconds hand.
> 
> I bought it as a WIP watch and will do my best to restore it to its former glory.


Glad to hear, although a bit too rich for me since I already have one. Take good care of it.


----------



## BizzyC

Deleted


----------



## creakinglemon

Been lurking in the forums for a while now, and have learnt so much about watches from you all!
Having trouble telling if this movement is genuine or not. I'm guessing the case and dial aren't, but I'm really just looking for a 2623.H movement to make a 24hr frankenwatch. (anyone know where I can buy just the movement?) I am right in thinking that this was the only movement Raketa used in 24hr watches, and 2628 and 2609 have been modded from 12hr parts or assembled from leftover bits?
Thanks for any help you can give me.


----------



## schnurrp

creakinglemon said:


> Been lurking in the forums for a while now, and have learnt so much about watches from you all!
> Having trouble telling if this movement is genuine or not. I'm guessing the case and dial aren't, but I'm really just looking for a 2623.H movement to make a 24hr frankenwatch. (anyone know where I can buy just the movement?) I am right in thinking that this was the only movement Raketa used in 24hr watches, and 2628 and 2609 have been modded from 12hr parts or assembled from leftover bits?
> Thanks for any help you can give me.
> View attachment 1610708
> View attachment 1610709
> View attachment 1610711


Looks legit to me. See #4731741 below from '89 catalog:










Movement is not available that I know of. The 2609, 2614, and 2628 were all made by Raketa for use in various watches over the years.

Here's a picture of an earlier 2623 made by Raketa which is quite rare and valuable:










If you want to make a 24 hour frankenwatch you'll have to purchase a donor, I'm afraid.


----------



## fliegerchrono

How about this Sturmanskie Chrono, legit or franken? And how old?


----------



## schnurrp

I guess it's not really correct to call this a "sturmanskie" as this designation is usually reserved for those with the "flying bomb" logo, comrade fliegerchrono, but it does appear to me to be a legitimate soviet-era civilian Poljot chrono, from the time period shown for number 5 below. I think the photos are a little too saturated and the milling at the sub-dials does not show up due to the low resolution of the photo, in my opinion. Additional photos from Polmax3133's reference: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html

The extreme position of the regulating lever on the balance, unless it's running quite slow now, would concern me a bit.










Like this one except a bit earlier (late '80s?) because the bridge does not have the "SU" stamp:


----------



## fliegerchrono

Thanks!


----------



## blanchy

Hey does can anyone give me some info on this vostok?

I think it is legit but I have not seen this style before

















Thanks


----------



## MEzz

I think my latest ebay mis(?)adventure is a converted pocket watch + fantasy dial . True? Verdict of the F10's?
pics















link to the auction
Soviet Watch Molniya MOLNIJA Regulator Rally Marathon "Dakar" Russia KAMAZ | eBay


----------



## emoscambio

MEzz said:


> I think my latest ebay mis(?)adventure is a converted pocket watch + fantasy dial . True? Verdict of the F10's?
> pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link to the auction
> Soviet Watch Molniya MOLNIJA Regulator Rally Marathon "Dakar" Russia KAMAZ | eBay


Well, the misspelling of Thierry in Thrierry is already quite a misadventure!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_Sabine


----------



## GuessWho

MEzz said:


> I think my latest ebay mis(?)adventure is a converted pocket watch + fantasy dial . True? Verdict of the F10's?
> pics
> link to the auction
> Soviet Watch Molniya MOLNIJA Regulator Rally Marathon "Dakar" Russia KAMAZ | eBay


You are correct with your assumptions, that is a Molnija 3602 (pocket watch movement, although it has made it's way into wristwatches) that has been re-cased and re-dialed.


----------



## creakinglemon

Thanks for the help with the Raketa, schnurrp. Bidding on it and hoping for a good price.
What about this Kirovskie? Seller says the crystal has been replaced, which I'm fine with. I've seen lots of different second hands, and from what I can tell, red is the "right colour"? The back of the lugs don't look quite right to me.


----------



## Lucidor

creakinglemon said:


> What about this Kirovskie? Seller says the crystal has been replaced, which I'm fine with. I've seen lots of different second hands, and from what I can tell, red is the "right colour"? The back of the lugs don't look quite right to me.


I believe the seconds hand should be gold, same as the hour- and minute hands. The red hand also looks too long, it should not reach beyond the center disk of the dial.


----------



## pcke2000

a military sturmanskie powered by a 31659 movement? Unfortunately I can't find a photo of its movement right now. Is it a franken? if I remembered correctly, military issued 31659 sturmanskies do not have the crown at 9 o'clock position. However, I did find a similar example at Mr. Mark Gordon's site ( Welcome to USSR Time! ) #1275 in a chrome-plated case.


----------



## schnurrp

You're welcome and good luck. I think Lucidor is right about the hands of the kirovskie.


----------



## creakinglemon

Does anything else about the Kirovskie look fake, or is it just the second hand?


----------



## polmax3133

pcke2000 said:


> a military sturmanskie powered by a 31659 movement? Unfortunately I can't find a photo of its movement right now. Is it a franken? if I remembered correctly, military issued 31659 sturmanskies do not have the crown at 9 o'clock position. However, I did find a similar example at Mr. Mark Gordon's site ( Welcome to USSR Time! ) #1275 in a chrome-plated case.


The watch is definitely a franken because that dial is one of the very first Sturmanskie dials that dates back to the late-seventies. Note the small minute numbers on the dial.

I suppose the original early movement was fitted to an Okean and replaced with a late-eighties 31659.


----------



## Ham2

pcke2000 said:


> a military sturmanskie powered by a 31659 movement? Unfortunately I can't find a photo of its movement right now. Is it a franken? if I remembered correctly, military issued 31659 sturmanskies do not have the crown at 9 o'clock position. However, I did find a similar example at Mr. Mark Gordon's site ( Welcome to USSR Time! ) #1275 in a chrome-plated case.


I had saw this too - an offering from Kojaviktor. There was no movement picture in his listing so it is always possible that his description is wrong. Nonetheless, that early Sturmanskie dial is in great condition.


----------



## gekos

pcke2000 said:


> a military sturmanskie powered by a 31659 movement? Unfortunately I can't find a photo of its movement right now. Is it a franken? if I remembered correctly, military issued 31659 sturmanskies do not have the crown at 9 o'clock position. However, I did find a similar example at Mr. Mark Gordon's site ( Welcome to USSR Time! ) #1275 in a chrome-plated case.


The movement can be correct note the date font, but the chrono seconds hand was replaced it has to long and sharp end and is not flat.


----------



## schnurrp

creakinglemon said:


> Does anything else about the Kirovskie look fake, or is it just the second hand?


Looks okay to me although I probably would try to be a little more patient and find one with a little clearer inner dial, but that's just me. Price would have to be good.


----------



## pcke2000

polmax3133 said:


> The watch is definitely a franken because that dial is one of the very first Sturmanskie dials that dates back to the late-seventies. Note the small minute numbers on the dial.
> 
> I suppose the original early movement was fitted to an Okean and replaced with a late-eighties 31659.


Thank you so much, polmax3133, I now see the difference


----------



## blanchy

Hi does this look genuine?


















Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

blanchy said:


> Hi does this look genuine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


Da.


----------



## Skol_Vikings

Hi guys long time lurker, this is my second beautiful Russian watch. I am told it is a ZIM from the 70's. So does it look genuine?

























Cheers!


----------



## emoscambio

Skol_Vikings said:


> Hi guys long time lurker, this is my second beautiful Russian watch. I am told it is a ZIM from the 70's. So does it look genuine?
> 
> View attachment 1620014
> 
> 
> View attachment 1620015
> 
> 
> View attachment 1620016
> 
> 
> Cheers!


Yes, absolutely genuine! A popular and affordable watch brand, made in today's 'Samara' (back then 'Kuybyshev').


----------



## Skol_Vikings

Awesome I thought so but I was having some trouble finding any information on those piece. I found information on my first one on Mark Gordon's USSR Time but had trouble finding anything on this one. Now I know a bit more should be easier. 

Thank you!


----------



## unwatched

I got this one cheap and will likely throw another bezel on anyway, so not of huge importance, but for general education purposes I'd like to know. The hands look a bit suspect to me. The second hand is usually red, I think and the hour/minute hands solid, although I've seen them otherwise as well.


----------



## hantms

The hands just lost their lume, so they're open. (Or are new hands that haven't been lumed) Second hand you'd think would be red, or some faded shade thereof.

Dial says 'antimagnetic' so the movement shot should really also include the metal covering. And should be a 2209 movement with "SU" stamped on it.

They do sell these dials as new replacement parts including the CCCP indication, though that doesn't mean this is one of those.

I'd buy it too if the price was right, and the movement a 2209 SU one.


----------



## schnurrp

unwatched said:


> I got this one cheap and will likely throw another bezel on anyway, so not of huge importance, but for general education purposes I'd like to know. The hands look a bit suspect to me. The second hand is usually red, I think and the hour/minute hands solid, although I've seen them otherwise as well.
> 
> View attachment 1621678


Looks good to me. If it was mine I would re-lume the hands. I have noticed on the genuine dials the "C" in "сделал" is placed slightly to the left of the "5" bar while on a reproduction it more nearly lines up, the hour bars are thicker and more sharply rectangular, and the printing is bolder in general:


----------



## hantms

Yes, the reproductions look better.


----------



## Erwandy

Comrades. Need help on this one. On sale at eBay from UK. I want to pull the trigger but I'd appreciate if someone can tell me if this is legit. (BTW, I dont mind franken Vostoks mixed and matched, just that I am allergic to fakes)


----------



## GuessWho

Erwandy said:


> Comrades. Need help on this one. On sale at eBay from UK. I want to pull the trigger but I'd appreciate if someone can tell me if this is legit. (BTW, I dont mind franken Vostoks mixed and matched, just that I am allergic to fakes)
> View attachment 1622446
> View attachment 1622447
> View attachment 1622448
> View attachment 1622449


Looks OK, pretty sure that dial is typical in a 470 case. A picture of the movement would seal the deal.


----------



## Erwandy

Guesswho, thanks so much for that


----------



## dutchassasin

Ah the famous white carpet ad from the UK, Erwandy you can trust that seller |>


----------



## Erwandy

dutchassasin said:


> Ah the famous white carpet ad from the UK, Erwandy you can trust that seller |>


It's a done deal then. Pulling the trigger now.😁


----------



## WFH

Has anyone seen this model before ? (Seller's pic).

Thanks !!


----------



## pcke2000

it looks like another franken 31659 with a wrong chrono second hand?


----------



## pcke2000

and this one seems legit?


----------



## polmax3133

The movement looks good on that one. The case looks to be unused, and besides the crumbling lume the rest looks to be in very good condition as well.


----------



## Neuron22

I was searching eBay and came across an Amphibian that I have not seen posted/discussed here. I inserted an image below. It is described as a "Rare No Edition Amphibian." Any thoughts...franken, fantasy, etc? The dial has both Cyrillic and English...which I have learned here does not usually happen on factory dials.

That aside, the watch does actually look kind of sharp...though waaaay out of my price range. I have no plans to buy...just more for my curiosity/education. Thanks!









The auction can be found at:
RARE No Edition VOSTOK Amphibian Automatic Watch Awarded Only to Special Forces | eBay


----------



## GuessWho

Neuron22 said:


> I was searching eBay and came across an Amphibian that I have not seen posted/discussed here. I inserted an image below. It is described as a "Rare No Edition Amphibian." Any thoughts...franken, fantasy, etc? The dial has both Cyrillic and English...which I have learned here does not usually happen on factory dials.
> 
> That aside, the watch does actually look kind of sharp...though waaaay out of my price range. I have no plans to buy...just more for my curiosity/education. Thanks!
> 
> The auction can be found at:
> RARE No Edition VOSTOK Amphibian Automatic Watch Awarded Only to Special Forces | eBay


If I am not mistaken, those are the dial/hands for a modern "Spetsnaz" Slava powered watch, in a Vostok 420 case (bezel has also been re-painted), with a Vostok 2416b movement.

So it is a franken/fantasy, and a very strange one at that! Price is just bonkers, the Slava storm sells for about ~$60-80 and a 420 with a 2416b costs anywhere from ~$50-70.


----------



## Neuron22

*GuessWho*...good call. Never heard of the Slava Spetsnaz, but after looking at the images I think you are absolutely right. Sad a franken/fantasy watch selling for the price of an Omega.


----------



## GuessWho

Neuron22 said:


> *GuessWho*...good call. Never heard of the Slava Spetsnaz, but after looking at the images I think you are absolutely right. Sad a franken/fantasy watch selling for the price of an Omega.


Happens more often than you think, but usually they are offering something more legit looking (like the Vostok Radio Room or another rare watch). I am guessing (hoping) in this case the seller thought he was posting in rubles currency, that would make the asking price around $32USD, which is a bit more on the realistic side.


----------



## pcke2000

polmax3133 said:


> The movement looks good on that one. The case looks to be unused, and besides the crumbling lume the rest looks to be in very good condition as well.


Thank you very much, polmax3133! just pulled the trigger. The seller may have put a used movement and inner bezel into a nice case, I gave it a try to see how good it is.


----------



## Ratfacedgit

Can someone explain this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wostok-Amph...242764537?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item43cf6be8f9


----------



## dutchassasin

Its the Kronometrofilia (WIS in Indonesia). They stole the wus white radioroom design and made some changes to it without permission. The ebay one lacks the limited caseback.


----------



## Erwandy

Need some help with this 470. I am eyeballing this one really hard and would want to commit. But the hands kind of worries me (the rest seemed legit to my eyes)





















Seems that perhaps the hands has been replaced with a Komandirskie? Thanks in advance for any advise on this.


----------



## GuessWho

Erwandy said:


> Need some help with this 470. I am eyeballing this one really hard and would want to commit. But the hands kind of worries me (the rest seemed legit to my eyes)
> 
> Seems that perhaps the hands has been replaced with a Komandirskie? Thanks in advance for any advise on this.


Everything looks good other than the hour hand (as you noticed).

That dial is uncommon in that case, but I was able to find an example with the same bezel/case/dial/movement combo in a 90s catalog:


----------



## Erwandy

Thanks GuessWho!


----------



## schnurrp

GuessWho said:


> That dial is uncommon in that case
> 
> Should only be in that case, GuessWho, but the wrong hour hand means to me, although there are some good parts, it is a construction most likely. I would not pay top price.


----------



## valter-g

CENTRAL second hand was not used in saucepans - beside the separate second dial! :-( Maybe min/hour hands are wrong too. 







And the back cover reads 1954...







...but the movement 1952







Plus I didn't find a movement like that in reference pics for Kirovskie. Not clearly seen on the pics but I read ZČZ for Zlatoust. Did they produce movements for post-war saucepans or movement transplanted from some pocket watch?


----------



## Erwandy

Stumbled accross this on the net...


























PLOT Twist: This watch is a banyard sale or something like that. Seems that the seller don't have any idea what it is.....but the 6MILLION dollar questions now is, is this a genuine Zlatoust Diver?

BTW: This thing measures 60mm in diameter...not the 53mm ones


----------



## Luis965

valter-g said:


> CENTRAL second hand was not used in saucepans - beside the separate second dial! :-( Maybe min/hour hands are wrong too.
> View attachment 1635738
> 
> And the back cover reads 1954...
> View attachment 1635739
> 
> ...but the movement 1952
> View attachment 1635740
> 
> Plus I didn't find a movement like that in reference pics for Kirovskie. Not clearly seen on the pics but I read ZČZ for Zlatoust. Did they produce movements for post-war saucepans or movement transplanted from some pocket watch?


This watch is a combination of a saucepan and a movement from a camera clock. Frankenland made.
Ckeck the Pictures below. (probably the little second hand doesn't even work)


----------



## Luis965

Erwandy said:


> Stumbled accross this on the net...
> View attachment 1636372
> View attachment 1636374
> View attachment 1636376
> View attachment 1636378
> 
> 
> PLOT Twist: This watch is a banyard sale or something like that. Seems that the seller don't have any idea what it is.....but the 6MILLION dollar questions now is, is this a genuine Zlatoust Diver?
> 
> BTW: This thing measures 60mm in diameter...not the 53mm ones


It is a Vodolaz from the fifties. The cathedral hands are typical.
The 53 and 46 mm models were only made in the last few years. 
All the soviet ones are 60 mm.
The little chain of the crown protection is lost in this piece.


----------



## Erwandy

Thanks Lol965


----------



## valter-g

Lol965 said:


> This watch is a combination of a saucepan and a movement from a camera clock. Frankenland made.
> Ckeck the Pictures below. (probably the little second hand doesn't even work)


Thanks Lol965 for this explanation, learned something new again. Strange a faker put such relatively scarce movement in his franken project, one from pocket watch would be more convenient. As the central second hand, I've read somewhere (on this forum) that central seconds were introduced in societ watches only in mid-50's or later, thery didn't know how to produce them before.


----------



## Erwandy

Lol965 said:


> It is a Vodolaz from the fifties. The cathedral hands are typical.
> The 53 and 46 mm models were only made in the last few years.
> All the soviet ones are 60 mm.
> The little chain of the crown protection is lost in this piece.


oh my oh my oh my......after doing some research and reading, that seems to be a genuine Vodolaz 191CHS - the Grand Daddy of all Vodolaz today. One frightening info that I found out is "Only the earliest dials will have radium dials and they are véry easy to identify as the lume paint will be quíte orange brown now" a quote taken from Activity Stream - ATG Vintage Watches Forums - which means this could be the earliest production unit that is actually RADIOACTIVE. **Notice that the lume on the dials are all orange brown **. The ones that we see going about are 192CHS which is a re-issue from Zlatoust - which have some bearing being developed and manufactured for commercial purposes. This one carries all the tooling marks of an industrial gadgetry which was never meant for casual wear - those who are familiar with custom fabrication will know what I am talking about.

Interesting huh...


----------



## valter-g

Erwandy said:


> oh my oh my oh my......after doing some research and reading, that seems to be a genuine Vodolaz 191CHS - the Grand Daddy of all Vodolaz today. One frightening info that I found out is "Only the earliest dials will have radium dials and they are véry easy to identify as the lume paint will be quíte orange brown now" a quote taken from Activity Stream - ATG Vintage Watches Forums - which means this could be the earliest production unit that is actually RADIOACTIVE. **Notice that the lume on the dials are all orange brown **. The ones that we see going about are 192CHS which is a re-issue from Zlatoust - which have some bearing being developed and manufactured for commercial purposes. This one carries all the tooling marks of an industrial gadgetry which was never meant for casual wear - those who are familiar with custom fabrication will know what I am talking about.
> 
> Interesting huh...


Good luck with that awesome vodolaz!

Don't be too worried about radium dial. It is radioactive, but unless you open/break the watch and eat or sniff the lume, it's not dangerous. Watches with radium dials were produced for decades and non of the _wearers_ got hurt. Those who suffered from radiation were factory workers, and not all of them, but only those poor girls who were painting the dials with radioactive paint, 8h/day for many years. And yes, the licked their painting brushes... Search "radium lume" or similar on this forum, there were lots of discussions about it. Some poeple think that it can be a health risk, others don't care. It's up to you to decide. My personal opinion would be if you live in Kuala Lumpur, you get much more hazardous stuff from air polution (no offence to KL, it's the same in all big(ger) cities) than from wearing several vodolazes.


----------



## Erwandy

LOL valter, you are quite right with that assessment on Kuala Lumpur air quality.


----------



## jurgensonovic

Hello comrades!

I bought a lot of Vostok watches, and now trying to make a decision which one to keep. I have one 470 case Amphibia, and looking to keep one or two of theese bunch. I am no expert in watches in general, just one year in this hobby 

So I searched on Vostok classification database for info, and I think I have found answers, but just to check here in this thread, hoping to get answers from more expirienced members:

From left to right:

1. Vostok Komandirskie, Helicopter dial
2. Vostok Komandirskie, Tank dial
3. Vostok Amphibia, Komandirskie Tank dial
4. Vostok Generalskie, Komandirskie Tank dial
5. Vostok Generalskie Tank dial



















1. Vostok Komandirskie Helicopter dial, case 341 (chrome plated?), movement looks like 2414 without any numbers on it except leter B below balance wheel, dating - 90's to 00's

Worries: no serial numbers inside caseback. Is it genuine, fake or franken?



















2. Vostok Komandirskie, Tank dial, case 341 (chrome plated?), movement looks like 2414 without any numbers on it except leter B below balance wheel, dating - 90's to 00's

Worries: no serial numbers inside caseback. Is it genuine, fake or franken?



















3. Vostok Amphibia, Komandirskie Tank dial, case 420 (or 020?), movement 2416 B with leter B below balance wheel and letters "RUS", dating - 90's to 00's

Worries: no serial numbers inside caseback. Is it genuine, fake or franken?





































4. Vostok Generalskie, Komandirskie Tank dial, case 091 (chrome plated or 090 SS?), movement 2416 B with leter B below balance wheel, dating - 90's to 00's

Worries: no serial numbers inside caseback. Is it genuine, fake or franken?



















5. Vostok Generalskie, Tank dial, case 091 (chrome plated or 090 SS?), movement 2416 B with leter B below balance wheel, dating - 80's to 90's

Worries: no serial numbers inside caseback, caseback in english?, is it genuine, fake or franken?


----------



## emoscambio

Lol965 said:


> It is a Vodolaz from the fifties. The cathedral hands are typical.
> The 53 and 46 mm models were only made in the last few years.
> All the soviet ones are 60 mm.
> The little chain of the crown protection is lost in this piece.


Are the old cases so nicely shiny or rather milled, almost brushed?


----------



## Erwandy

emoscambio said:


> Are the old cases so nicely shiny or rather milled, almost brushed?


I suspect that the last owner did that -the polishing I mean. But then there's a few variation of CHS191 case because it was outsourced to several fabrication machinist in the 50-60s so it is very hard to ascertain if indeed the CHS191 have a distinguished tooling marks. But the newer gen CHS192 should looked consistent because I reaad that it was all done in-house by the Zlatoust Agat factory - and CHS192 should carry a more refined finishes as compared to CHS191


----------



## Arizone

jurgensonovic said:


> Hello comrades!
> 
> I bought a lot of Vostok watches, and now trying to make a decision which one to keep. I have one 470 case Amphibia, and looking to keep one or two of theese bunch. I am no expert in watches in general, just one year in this hobby
> 
> So I searched on Vostok classification database for info, and I think I have found answers, but just to check here in this thread, hoping to get answers from more expirienced members:
> 
> From left to right:
> 
> 1. Vostok Komandirskie, Helicopter dial
> 2. Vostok Komandirskie, Tank dial
> 3. Vostok Amphibia, Komandirskie Tank dial
> 4. Vostok Generalskie, Komandirskie Tank dial
> 5. Vostok Generalskie Tank dial


1. Looks genuine. It's much more uncommon and in great shape. 
2. Looks genuine. In great shape but an otherwise very common model.
3. Maybe franken. It doesn't have Amphibian hands, but the dial does exclude the usual number of jewels so that it might have been intentional. 
4. Maybe genuine. Has the newer style numerals, newer 31 jewel movement, and newer triangle dot bezel, which could mean it was produced a bit later as they transitioned things around.
5. Maybe genuine. This is the only watch with CCCP on the dial, which usually would have a serial on the back. Michele has two similar Generalskies with different dials. One does have a CCCP dial and no-serial English caseback, which is a good sign.

I'd personally hold on to 1 and 5. Swap 5 for 4 if you prefer the newer styling, which I don't.


----------



## saltddirk

Hi,
I was looking for a first Russian watch to buy and missed out on a nice 24hr raketa.
Then I spotted this one and saved it in my favorites. This evening I was cleaning out a bit of favorites and came across it again. Still for sale after 2 months. I like the clear dial so on an impulse i bought...
First I was wondering if the hands had lost their lume or if they were open faces, so started to do some homework......
Now I am probably answering my own question if I ask if this is a Franken, or even worse a fake.
I had no idea that 3Aka3 on the dial would make it more desirable, and then i noticed that the vendor inn74 has a bit of a reputation in the franken of the week thread. Oh boy! Still not overly expensive so lessons learned. do your homework first!

Legit, franken or fake?




















Thanks
Dirk


----------



## schnurrp

saltddirk said:


> Hi,
> I was looking for a first Russian watch to buy and missed out on a nice 24hr raketa.
> Then I spotted this one and saved it in my favorites. This evening I was cleaning out a bit of favorites and came across it again. Still for sale after 2 months. I like the clear dial so on an impulse i bought...
> First I was wondering if the hands had lost their lume or if they were open faces, so started to do some homework......
> Now I am probably answering my own question if I ask if this is a Franken, or even worse a fake.
> I had no idea that 3Aka3 on the dial would make it more desirable, and then i noticed that the vendor inn74 has a bit of a reputation in the franken of the week thread. Oh boy! Still not overly expensive so lessons learned. do your homework first!
> 
> Legit, franken or fake?
> 
> View attachment 1640243
> View attachment 1640244
> View attachment 1640245
> 
> Thanks
> Dirk


There's a lot wrong with that one. Here's Michele's authentic version:










That is a reproduction dial and reproduction _amphibian_ hands missing some lume (skeleton hands were almost never used on soviet watches). The authentic Chistopol komandirskie like that one had a 2234 hacking movement also.

Oh, and wrong case.


----------



## saltddirk

Thanks Schnurrp.
A real fake franken then....  

did not really come as a surprise.
Oh well, good thing I did not buy it as investment but to give it some wrist time.. I shall be complaining to the vendor though! So much for me wanting to help the oppressed and give Ukraine 's economy a boost.

Dirk


----------



## saltddirk

Oh,
forgot to add, 
That original is a very nice watch, clear dial, perfect size.


Dirk:-!


----------



## saltddirk

Thanks Schnurrp.
I have cancelled the purchase with Inn74.
His first reply was it is fully original. However a little copy paste with the word fake included persuaded him to accept a cancellation.;-)
It might re-appear on fleebay though. Perhaps time to move it to the franken of the week....

On the hunt again for a more authentic Russian watch, anybody got a nice Raketa radioroom going spare?

Dirk


----------



## jurgensonovic

Arizone said:


> 1. Looks genuine. It's much more uncommon and in great shape.
> 2. Looks genuine. In great shape but an otherwise very common model.
> 3. Maybe franken. It doesn't have Amphibian hands, but the dial does exclude the usual number of jewels so that it might have been intentional.
> 4. Maybe genuine. Has the newer style numerals, newer 31 jewel movement, and newer triangle dot bezel, which could mean it was produced a bit later as they transitioned things around.
> 5. Maybe genuine. This is the only watch with CCCP on the dial, which usually would have a serial on the back. Michele has two similar Generalskies with different dials. One does have a CCCP dial and no-serial English caseback, which is a good sign.
> 
> I'd personally hold on to 1 and 5. Swap 5 for 4 if you prefer the newer styling, which I don't.


Thanks for the advice! My favorite is 5, and for second one I still can not decide 1 or 3.

All 5 are in great shape, and I am very happy about these watches. Meantime, I searched for photos of all 5 models, and found exactly looking watches like 1,2,4 and 5. For #3 I found photos of several examples of almost the same model, but with different crown and/or bezel. And found posts where members mentioning buying (new) models looking like this in early 90's. Movement 2416B, SS amphibian case (420), with Komandirskie dial and hands. Unfortunately no photos of these examples.


----------



## Arizone

jurgensonovic said:


> Thanks for the advice! My favorite is 5, and for second one I still can not decide 1 or 3.
> 
> All 5 are in great shape, and I am very happy about these watches. Meantime, I searched for photos of all 5 models, and found exactly looking watches like 1,2,4 and 5. For #3 I found photos of several examples of almost the same model, but with different crown and/or bezel. And found posts where members mentioning buying (new) models looking like this in early 90's. Movement 2416B, SS amphibian case (420), with Komandirskie dial and hands. Unfortunately no photos of these examples.


I still suggest 1 and 5 over 3, but it's all opinion at this point. You probably don't need a second tank watch, right? If you really want an Amphibian model I'd suggest picking up one that isn't so jumbled, official or not, and the save the one tank watch for one with the standard case.


----------



## jurgensonovic

Arizone said:


> I still suggest 1 and 5 over 3, but it's all opinion at this point. You probably don't need a second tank watch, right? If you really want an Amphibian model I'd suggest picking up one that isn't so jumbled, official or not, and the save the one tank watch for one with the standard case.


I generally don't need any more watches, but there they are, 5 new ones 

I am closer to pick 1 and 5, to have 1 of each: Komandirskie, Generalskie and Amphibian. As I wrote in first post, there is 1 Amphibian in my current collection, and that one is a keeper:


----------



## pcke2000

canceled


----------



## Ham2

pcke2000 said:


> Is it a real original OKEAH, or just another franken? :-s Thank you so much in advance!


 That one looks authentic - a really nice one: early movement and correct font style for the date; authentic dial and the lume on the hands and indices matches. And nice rarer red font inner bezel snd orange chrono hands - sweet!


----------



## pcke2000

Ham2 said:


> That one looks authentic - a really nice one: early movement and correct font style for the date; authentic dial and the lume on the hands and indices matches. And nice rarer red font inner bezel snd orange chrono hands - sweet!


Thank you so much, Ham2 !! I am not experienced with old OKEAHs and always worried about getting a franken.


----------



## blackdot

Does this look alright? Many, many thanks!


----------



## mysterian

blackdot said:


> Does this look alright? Many, many thanks!


SO,... who's the lucky winner of this Okean?


----------



## Ham2

Was wondering that myself.


----------



## pcke2000

The OKEAH was sold for US$810, I was not lucky to catch it.


----------



## mysterian

I also was unlucky  
This was a very nice example,... hoping it went to a good watch box!


----------



## Verby

Hello Forumist Comrades!

My nickname sprung from action parts of speech, so whilst I assure you that "Verby"s resemblance to "verbosity" is genuinely coincidental, it also happens to be Just Perfect. .Fer realz. .I mention this because I care a lot about showing you how hard I tried before asking you to spoonfeed me knowledge, and the resulting post ended up, um, kinda lonnnnnnngggggggg. .I researched really hard, and whilst I did learn bunches of fascinating stuff and answered many of my own questions, I still have many queries I couldn't resolve myself.

So be advised, ok? .Please try to bear through the longness with me? .I promise I'll be nice. .

So ... I have been poking my way around these pages and others learning to differentiate original Sportivnie awesomeness from the never-ending stampede of scary/gruesome/hilarious Frankentivnies.

I'm focusing on just Sportivnies for now because wouldn'tcha know I hit the "Buy It Now" button on one before learning enough?

Oooobviously. .Heh. .

This is what I got, yet to arrive in the post:
Soviet WATCH MOSKVA,SPORTIVNII,POBEDA | eBay

Seller's images:
































































I started by looking for a new wind-up watch, and then remembered my dependable kidhood Timex and y'all knew I'd end up on "the electronic bay" dintcha? .

Anyhow I tappity-tapped on my iPad down through the categories til I noticed that every watch I clicked on was always a 1MChZ Pobeda or Sportivnie or Schturmanskie. .And even though I know now that my "Buy It Now" Sportivnie more than likely has at least a few frankensistencies, as long as it works well I'm still pretty happy with my choice.

Also, those Eastern European immigrant relatives I had, even though I may not remember every vocabulary word I can still read the Cyrillic pretty easily. .Which is AWESOME! .

(I <3 you grandma)

I do struggle still with the scripty italic fonts, but I can live with that. .I feel very Cyrillicly fortunate. 

By the way is "frankensistency" an understandable word?
Are "frankengruencies" more gruesome frankensistencies? .
And are authentic desirable features "autheniceties"?

Anyhow, so after examining all the Sportivnies I could find in catalogue scans, forum-identified photos of originals and not-so-originals, 101 pages of the "Franken of the week..." .thread:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/franken-week-88091-101.html
... 52 pages of the "Q&A: Is this watch legit or a franken?" thread:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-894887-52.html
... and generally stuffing all sorts of Sportivnie-related info all up into my noggin, these are the queries I got ....

Frankensistencies:

Dial is totally a home inkjet job, right? .It's so clean, fine lines all irregular, top loop of "B" in "B CCCP" all inked in ... .Whilst from my usual viewing distance I think it's pretty looking, still, it is a home inkjet fake, right?
Some similar dials on Michele's site look just as clean but their way cleaner fine lines gave mine away:
sport-watches4
sport-watches3
sport-watches2
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/sportivnie-movement-562398.html#post4121356

Is this crown too thick, too flat-topped for this watch? .Is flaunting that much base metal only done with lilac this season? . Is it a frankenvisitor?

Are these hour/minute/second hands frankensistent? .The second hand looks a bit short to me but personally I'm willing to give them a pass cos to my aesthetic they fit the case and dial fairly well, have compatible style, look in fairly good condition and are pretty! .But I'd still like to identify the gatecrashers. .Are the hands frankens, or made last week in China?.

"17 jewels" on (admittedly inkjet) dial, is inconsistent with "15 jewels" on movement. .Nevertheless, a 15-jewel stop-second-hacked shock-protected maybe-water-resistant movement would give me a happy. .
I have seen two similar inconsistencies on USSRtime Sportivnies:.
Images for ID: 0026
Images for ID: 0713

I note the movement serial number, but can't read its features very well yet. .The font seems consistent with early Sportivnies but is it too high for a two-piece back? .Advice please?

Small gap between shock protection and case, is that an issue? .Could the anti-shock part be perishing or is it a new case-movement frankenship?
Example gaps I found with possibly perishing part:
sport-watches4
Images for ID: 0026
Images for ID: 0027
... and example gaps with same part absent:
Images for ID: 0390
Images for ID: 0625

Aforementioned gap aside, to me the movement parts and screws seem mostly to fit their holes and match for age, but shouldn't the screw heads in the 3-star 1MChZ wheel and its wee friend beside it be flush level with the surface like the others instead of raised? .Personally I'm ok with a changed screw or three but could it indicate that bigger parts were swapped? .What else am I missing?

Autheniceties!

[Post-Composition Pre-Posting Edit: .
Honestly I've been staring at so many timepiece details all I see when I close my eyes are screw heads and Geneva stripes and stop-second-hand hacks and ... and ... and ... I need to stop looking at watch pictures!!
Ok back to your scheduled programming.]

Springbars fit well, ageing looks consistent.
Hands (if original), 2-piece back and 15-jewel movement may all possibly be consistent with earlier model Sportivnies (even if the hands may be consistent with a DIFFerent earlier-model Sportivnie ... )
Pretty Geneva stripes all line up nicely
Pillow-shaped crystal is consistent, seems in good condition.

Big thingy wheel (technical jargon term I swear) has proper "S" brush pattern under "1MChZ 3stars" mark.

Squozen beige-coloured loop (see above school of technical jargonising) peeking out from under the balance wheel, the raised top plate, recessed jewels and stop-second-hand hacking feature all seem consistent autheniceties .

On the movement: the 15 jewel mark, the 3-stars, the 1MChZ Moscow 1st factory lettering on the big thingy wheel and logo impression on the raised top plate, the fonts, placements, orientations and sizes all appear to be consistent autheniceties. .Even the ones on the (probably) inkjetted dial seem to match up! .Did I miss anything?

Serial number (906933): I'm noting number of digits, position, orientation and font all look consistent with early-model-15-jewel-Sportivnieness, but I know serial numbers give up more info that I'm not seeing yet. .Is this number too high for early modelship? .Advice on this please?

Overt date-marks are typically absent from most Sportivnies, and this one is consistent with that. .Would somebody help me with dating this thing please? .Could it have been made in China last Tuesday? .Or frankenswapped from another case?

Lever on the timing regulator is happily still present and apparently functional. .Also happily not as gunged up as some examples I've seen, phew.

I've seen a small oblong thingy screwed into the raised top plate around the jewel nearest the jewel numeral mark, and also fine calibration grooves under the timing regulator lever on many 17-jewel Sportivnie movements. .I haven't seen these features mentioned anywhere yet, but I have come to recognise them as near-ubiquitous autheniceties in later-model 17-jewel Sportivnies.
E.g. sport-watches2
Those features are both absent here, which would seem to be consistent with an earlier-model 15-jewel Sportivnie. .
Knowledgeable contributors, please help me know more about these features? .

Top of stem at dial centre appears aged and nicely finished, may possibly be consistent with original hands or just competent servicing?
Ageing and wear throughout screws parts case crown and spring bars all appears consistent with Sportivnies in general, and possibly consistent with earlier-model Sportivnies in particular. .

The combination of forms and materials in this watch feels fairly harmonious to me, even considering the possible frankensistencies. .And as long as the timepiece functions as it should and matches the listing photos, then I will enjoy wearing it when it gets here and will do a little happy dance with my fingers. .

This was my first post here. .Sorry it was so long. .If you made it this far, Thank You!! .   

I'd really like to know, how inaccurate was my assessment, what did I miss, aaaaaaaaaaand ... how'd I score on the dismount? ..

ps: .I've noticed different spellings of "jewel" on different watch movements, is this regional/factory/date/mistake/grammar? .Anybody know what's up with that?
Photos for the interested from horology.ru:
Soviet movements (Part 2)
http://www.horology.ru/website/horology/var/custom/File/tz_files/3602.jpg
KAMHEЙ
(version I've seen most often)

http://www.horology.ru/website/horology/var/custom/File/tz2_files/r2209.jpg
KAMHЯ

http://www.horology.ru/website/horology/var/custom/File/tz2_files/2609A.jpg
KAMEHЬ

Right finally done (for now!?) .kthxbye. .


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## MayorM

Different spellings of "jewel" are various plural forms in Russian grammar ..21 jewels -двадцать один камень,,,23 jewels -двадцать три камня,, 17 jewels -семнадцать камней


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## Verby

MayorM said:


> Different spellings of "jewel" are various plural forms in Russian grammar ..21 jewels -двадцать один камень,,,23 jewels -двадцать три камня,, 17 jewels -семнадцать камней


Right, multi plural endings, I'd forgotten them!

Awesome, that's one question nicely sorted, thank you very much MayorM. Now just eleventy-squillion q's left. Peeessa cake.


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## schnurrp

Welcome to the forum Verby.

I skimmed over your post and although I don't think you asked the question I believe it is true that the Sportivnie watch was so named because its shock proof 17 jewel hacking movement allowed one to time sporting events. Unfortunately yours has the non-shockproof 15 jewel non-hacking movement, a nice movement but a big error when found in a Sportivnie.

Notice the movement picture of the example below which you referenced. That is the correct movement and it can be recognized as a hacking movement by the obvious recess of the jewels of the train bridge.



















See the difference?


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## Verby

schnurrp said:


> Welcome to the forum Verby. .
> 
> I skimmed over your post and although I don't think you asked the question I believe it is true that the Sportivnie watch was so named because its shock proof 17 jewel hacking movement allowed one to time sporting events. .Unfortunately yours has the .non-shockproof 15 jewel non-hacking movement, a nice movement but a big error when found in a Sportivnie.
> 
> Notice the movement picture of the example below which you referenced. .That is the correct movement and it can be recognized as a hacking movement by the obvious recess of the jewels of the train bridge.
> 
> See the difference?


Hello Schnurrp, I was hoping you'd reply! .Partly cos I knew you'd be helpful and partly because your nickname gives me a smile everytime I see it. .When I hear it in my head it sounds so cheerfully and noisily imbibey .

Darnit I tried to check differences and comparisons so carefully and I thought those jewels WERE recessed! .I see now that for THIS recessed-ness I need to think less "saucer" and more "cereal-bowl". .

And obviously I need to train my eye more to identify the other hacking features like the loop and shock-proofing, because I did carefully check for and tick each of those boxes and golly the Oscar for "Most Features Mistaken In A Single Bound" goes to ... ME..

Oh well. 

I thought the shock-proofing was that ring around the outside of the movement (I referenced it in my original post as possibly evidence of "new case-movement frankenship"). .I thought that cushioned the movement inside the outer wall of the case. .If that's not the shock-proofing, is it visible from a photo like these? .Would you please be so kind as to help me identify it?

Thank you so much for schlepping through my post and clarifying. .Awesomely helpful!


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## schnurrp

I admire your effort to be correct, Verby. Don't stop trying, it's a learning process and we've all been there. The shock-proofing of a watch is applied to allow the shafts of the balance and also sometimes the more delicate gears of the watch to move slightly instead of breaking off at the ends. The jewels are returned to position by a small spring. In the Sportivnie two jewels are added to the balance shaft and its position opposite in the body (thus 17 jewel instead of 15) and the brass spring holding the movable jewels in place can be seen in the center of the balance.

You are certainly not the first to miss whether the jewels are recessed or not but it's pretty obvious once you see a comparison. The hacking arm lever is spring loaded to bear slightly against the balance wheel and stop the movement when the crown is out. When the crown is pushed in it pushes on the other end of the lever and rotates the arm away from the balance.

You may want to look at this thread for a more complete explanation of how this hacking is accomplished on the 41m (also Vostok 2234 and a common soviet quartz movement).

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/i-understand-how-2608-41m-movement-hacks-807538.html


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## avers

There's an OKEAH in the Sales Board - itlooks like too many replacement parts in it - case, caseback, hands, possibly dial.

Search for: Poljot Okeah Sturmanskie 3133 Chronograph Russian


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## Ham2

avers said:


> There's an OKEAH in the Sales Board - itlooks like too many replacement parts in it - case, caseback, hands, possibly dial. Search for: Poljot Okeah Sturmanskie 3133 Chronograph Russian


 Yes - unfortunately that one is a fake (the aftermarket dial is a big giveaway, SU stamped movement, etc)


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## slls

I use WatchRecon - The Most Intelligent Search Engine for Private Watch Sales to find OKEAH and I see another for a "pain in my eyes" price...


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## mysterian

This watch sold recently on Ebay for around $51 ... purported to be a Slava diver.
Should this watch have a Raketa movement?
Here is the watch... photos from the Ebay listing:


























Here are photos of other "real" Slava divers... photos from :: USSR watches collection ::





















Obviously a pretty close match to the first example, but the crown and movement of the Ebay watch make me question...?


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## schnurrp

That dial (and case, probably) are from a Slava quartz "diver". Certainly has very little in common with the ultra-rare and valuable Slava mechanical diver pictured next to last. A Raketa movement has been "adapted", in my opinion.


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## Cura

A real franken. Hands have other lumen then the dial. No quartzmovement. 2M logo and made USSR don't add up. Case can be of a Slava quartz but not a real divercase.


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## fliegerchrono

Pretty sure this one is not a Franken, but I am so happy I found it at a watchfair today I decided to post it right away! My apologies for the awful quality of the pics!


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## slls

Your lucky I skipped the watchfair in Houten, NL this year. Otherwise...😄👍


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## pcke2000

Is this a real Vostok Buran Sputnik or a franken? I've only seen examples in 'crab' case.:-s


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## schnurrp

Here is Ill-phil's real deal First Moscow kirovskie sputnik. There's a similar one with creme dial and cases and hands may be gold but that's about it, in my opinion.


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## slls

schnurrp said:


> Here is Ill-phil's real deal First Moscow kirovskie sputnik. There's a similar one with creme dial and cases and hands may be gold but that's about it, in my opinion.


Here you can see the creme dial variant...
slls-watches: Sputnik
I never have seen the Buran one before


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## pcke2000

It seems like there's a rare version of sputnik watches called Vostok Buran, it appeared on this forum before, please see this thread:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-buran-watch-7183.html



schnurrp said:


> Here is Ill-phil's real deal First Moscow kirovskie sputnik. There's a similar one with creme dial and cases and hands may be gold but that's about it, in my opinion.


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## mysterian

pcke2000 said:


> It seems like there's a rare version of sputnik watches called Vostok Buran, it appeared on this forum before, please see this thread:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-buran-watch-7183.html


The watch you've posted looks very well like at least the dial could be original. Note the degradation of the areas which should be red( compared with Michelle's NOS watch)... on your dial, they've turned a yellow brown color and seem consistent. I've not been familiar with that Buran Sputnik either,... must be quite rare!

Cheers!


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## schnurrp

Aha...maybe needs a new case and second hand looks like a construction, still may have some authentic parts. I learned something today.

First requirement of "sputnik" watch, must have proper sputnik.


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## fliegerchrono

The second Sturmanskie I saw at the watchfair was this quickly photographed one. I recon it is an early airforce Sturmanskie. Seller was asking a whopping 450 euros (573 us dollar)! No thank you! But still? Legit or Franken?


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## TheBigCheese

Is my Komandirskie franken or legit?


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## sq100

TheBigCheese said:


> Is my Komandirskie franken or legit?


Looks good to me, the only thing that's wrong with it (on the outside), is that it has an amphibian bezel, but if it were mine I'd leave it like that


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## BizzyC

This watch came as part of a set. It has a 1st Moscow Watch Factory emblem on the dial and movement which I believe means it should be 40-50 years old but the watch is in like new condition. Franken or possibly some sort of reissue? Not sure of the make - I think it says Sporting on the top of the dial. BTW. Watch works and keeps excellent time. Thank you.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ham2

BizzyC said:


> This watch came as part of a set. It has a 1st Moscow Watch Factory emblem on the dial and movement which I believe means it should be 40-50 years old but the watch is in like new condition. Franken or possibly some sort of reissue? Not sure of the make - I think it says Sporting on the top of the dial. BTW. Watch works and keeps excellent time. Thank you. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Congratulations. It looks like you are the lucky owner of an authentic, mint condition Sportivnie. Should date to the 1950s-60s


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## Ham2

fliegerchrono said:


> The second Sturmanskie I saw at the watchfair was this quickly photographed one. I recon it is an early airforce Sturmanskie. Seller was asking a whopping 450 euros (573 us dollar)! No thank you! But still? Legit or Franken?


 that looks like a legit relatively rare grey-on-grey dial 31659 Sturmanskie - should probably have the issue date stamped on the balance


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## schnurrp

A completely authentic looking Sportivnie from The First Moscow Watch Factory (later Poljot), so called because it incorporated a stop-second movement useful for timing sporting events (does the second hand stop when you pull out the crown?). Also the shock-proofing and screw-on back resulted in a more robust watch suitable for sports. Mid '50s to early '60s. A common dial in uncommonly nice condition! Thanks for sharing.

From a respected online collection:


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## BizzyC

Well that's a pleasant surprise! Yes, second hand stops so I just assumed the movement was hand winding and hacking. . Sportivnie - cool name. That should help me do some better research. As always, many thanks to this great forum!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Piper 3

I've enjoyed reading these forums that past few hours. *I hope my Dad isn't a member* I bought a Vostok Komandirskie on ebay (item 221620149560) as a gift for my Dad. He likes watches, would like a Soviet watch, and enjoys tinkering with watches. I know from the auction details that the hands are not original because they are not luminescent so I will find replacements. I was hoping someone could tell me if the bezel (? goes around the face), etc is original to the watch?

Thanks!


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## Lampoc

Piper 3 said:


> I've enjoyed reading these forums that past few hours. *I hope my Dad isn't a member* I bought a Vostok Komandirskie on ebay (item 221620149560) as a gift for my Dad. He likes watches, would like a Soviet watch, and enjoys tinkering with watches. I know from the auction details that the hands are not original because they are not luminescent so I will find replacements. I was hoping someone could tell me if the bezel (? goes around the face), etc is original to the watch


Welcome to the forum Piper. Unfortunately I think you've made a poor choice there. Hands and crown are completely wrong, bezel has been badly repainted and the case is suffering severe chrome wear. On the plus side, the dial looks like an original Soviet Ministry of Defence one. I'd recommend Meranom (google him) if you'd like a brand new Komandirskie (for about the same price you paid) or there's quite a few decent sellers of Soviet era watches on eBay, some of whom frequent this forum. Good luck!


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## gsm_dealer08

Hi.I just bught this Molnija caliber 3202 from this bulgarian seller on eBay.The print on the movement shows 18 Jewels,made 2-63 and it has a nice polished finish specific to that time.But later I realised that the other pieces were't polished in the same way.Could this mean earlyer parts were installed? how authentic does this one look?
It only costs 18$ and I love the look of it,but i'm just curious.

ebay link: Rare Vintage MOLNIJA MOLNIA Russian Pocket Watch caliber 3202 | eBay

item number:271672031002


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## Luis965

gsm_dealer08 said:


> Hi.I just bught this Molnija caliber 3202 from this bulgarian seller on eBay.The print on the movement shows 18 Jewels,made 2-63 and it has a nice polished finish specific to that time.But later I realised that the other pieces were't polished in the same way.Could this mean earlyer parts were installed? how authentic does this one look?
> It only costs 18$ and I love the look of it,but i'm just curious.
> 
> ebay link: Rare Vintage MOLNIJA MOLNIA Russian Pocket Watch caliber 3202 | eBay
> 
> item number:271672031002


The movement is made with pieces from at least two different ones.
Probably the original piece is the one with the date and the stripes.
The others are not from the watch, it miss some pieces of the micro regulator too.

Should look like this:










And the piece wiyh micro regulator like this:


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## Piper 3

Lampoc said:


> Welcome to the forum Piper. Unfortunately I think you've made a poor choice there. Hands and crown are completely wrong, bezel has been badly repainted and the case is suffering severe chrome wear. On the plus side, the dial looks like an original Soviet Ministry of Defence one. I'd recommend Meranom (google him) if you'd like a brand new Komandirskie (for about the same price you paid) or there's quite a few decent sellers of Soviet era watches on eBay, some of whom frequent this forum. Good luck!


Lampoc, Thank you for the information! My Dad likes old / vintage watches so I'm glad the dial is original. So, if I can find hands, crown, any maybe a bezel I have the perfect "retired guy" gift! Would the bezel be too difficult to restore? I will look around these forums a bit and find the sellers of Soviet era watches.


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## gsm_dealer08

Thank you very much for the fast reply.You do have a keen eye!
I have found one that looks genuine in all ways.Can you please give me your opinion on it?

The link:
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/185...age=3&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery


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## gsm_dealer08

Lol965 said:


> The movement is made with pieces from at least two different ones.
> Probably the original piece is the one with the date and the stripes.
> The others are not from the watch, it miss some pieces of the micro regulator too.


Thank you very much for the fast reply.You do have a keen eye!
I have found one that looks genuine in all ways.Can you please give me your opinion on it? 

The link: 
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/185878820/vintage-soviet-russian-working-mid


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## dutchassasin

-Removed i found the answer already-


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## Lampoc

Piper 3 said:


> Lampoc, Thank you for the information! My Dad likes old / vintage watches so I'm glad the dial is original. So, if I can find hands, crown, any maybe a bezel I have the perfect "retired guy" gift! Would the bezel be too difficult to restore? I will look around these forums a bit and find the sellers of Soviet era watches.


There's a few sellers on ebay with spares available. The bezel is chrome-plated brass so will be a bit difficult to restore. Luckily new bezels can be had cheap. Whereabouts in the world are you? It would be easier to recommend places at least in the same country/continent as you!


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## Luis965

gsm_dealer08 said:


> Thank you very much for the fast reply.You do have a keen eye!
> I have found one that looks genuine in all ways.Can you please give me your opinion on it?
> 
> The link:
> https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/185878820/vintage-soviet-russian-working-mid


This one is ok, but the dial will need to be cleaned.


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## Piper 3

Lampoc said:


> There's a few sellers on ebay with spares available. The bezel is chrome-plated brass so will be a bit difficult to restore. Luckily new bezels can be had cheap. Whereabouts in the world are you? It would be easier to recommend places at least in the same country/continent as you!


I live in Atlanta, Ga in the US. Thanks for letting me know about the bezel! I really should've started looking into all of this well before now. I've found a new crown on ebay and have been reading to see if a new crown would work on an old watch. So far, no, but would you happen to know? I asked the seller if he had luminous hands he would sell me and he will put them.

Once again, I appreciate your help!


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## schnurrp

Piper 3 said:


> I live in Atlanta, Ga in the US. Thanks for letting me know about the bezel! I really should've started looking into all of this well before now. I've found a new crown on ebay and have been reading to see if a new crown would work on an old watch. So far, no, but would you happen to know? I asked the seller if he had luminous hands he would sell me and he will put them.
> 
> Once again, I appreciate your help!


The pictures appear very small when I try to view them but it looks like the crown does not screw down. If this is so then the receiver is missing from the body, a defect hard to overcome. You may want to chalk this one up to experience, retire it as a parts watch, and start over. I'll be glad to help with parts if you can pm me some pictures I can see if you want to proceed anyway.


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## Lampoc

schnurrp said:


> The pictures appear very small when I try to view them but it looks like the crown does not screw down. If this is so then the receiver is missing from the body, a defect hard to overcome.


Good spot! I should have picked up on that when I said the crown was wrong....


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## gsm_dealer08

Lol965 said:


> This one is ok, but the dial will need to be cleaned.


Thanks for the help! I think i'm gonna leave the dial like that.I kinda like the look of it,it shows it's age.


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## Piper 3

schnurrp said:


> The pictures appear very small when I try to view them but it looks like the crown does not screw down. If this is so then the receiver is missing from the body, a defect hard to overcome. You may want to chalk this one up to experience, retire it as a parts watch, and start over. I'll be glad to help with parts if you can pm me some pictures I can see if you want to proceed anyway.


Schnurrp, I will pm you some pictures and you can tell me what you think. I looked at the "Anatomy of a Vostok" thread and see what you mean. Maybe I could find a not working Komandirskie so it would still have a vintage look - use the body but this watch movement and back? Thanks to both you and Lampoc!


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## gsm_dealer08

Lol965 said:


> This one is ok, but the dial will need to be cleaned.


 was wondering if you can help me with some information about the pocket watch's glass dome.Both watches arrived.The genuine one is excellent,runs on +/- 5s per day.The one that was made from parts is broken (surprise surprise),it runs but the hands are stuck when I try to set it.
Now on the broken one the glass dome has a nice round finish but the other one has like this sharp edge,it's not round all the way.My question is,is that how they were made in 1965 or the edged one is a replacement? The genuine watch is exactly like the one in the first photo you showed me.Also, the round dome on the broken one is taller than the other.


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## chronomancer

Privyet dudes. I bought this komandirskie watch from the silk market in Beijing in the late 90s, so it's most likely a fake, but I wanted to check with you guys just for fun. The case back has a number, but the movement has no markings on it. Plus nothing in the dial aside from the dirskie. Here are some pics: thanks!


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## Lampoc

chronomancer said:


> Privyet dudes. I bought this komandirskie watch from the silk market in Beijing in the late 90s, so it's most likely a fake, but I wanted to check with you guys just for fun. The case back has a number, but the movement has no markings on it. Plus nothing in the dial aside from the dirskie. Here are some pics: thanks!


Totally legit with a 2414 movement.


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## chronomancer

Hey cool! Thank you for the quick reply. Unfortunately it does not work. But maybe I'll get it serviced now.


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## MattBrace

Looks ok to me, movement is a 2409 as it has no date register.


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## Lampoc

MattBrace said:


> Looks ok to me, movement is a 2409 as it has no date register.


Yep sorry - should have spotted that


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## MattBrace

You say it won't run? does it try with a slight shake? is it fully wound?

Looks like a transitional period example as it has not COO markings on the dial. approx. 1993/94

Nice original strap.

A good example.


----------



## chronomancer

You guys are good  I tried shaking it a little and I wound it up but nothing happens. Is the 2409 movement something the local watch shop could handle? I guess they left off the part about where it was made since it was not the USSR anymore and they still hadn't figured out what country to put on there? The 93-94 time frame jives with when I was in China and picked it up.


----------



## MattBrace

Yes your local watch repair guy should be able to get her running no problem, as you have already had the back off the watch perhaps take a cocktail stick or similar and carefully give the balance wheel (gold colour) a nudge it may get it going if its wound. or if your not comfortable with having a go its off to the watch shop!

Regards


----------



## schnurrp

chronomancer said:


> Privyet dudes. I bought this komandirskie watch from the silk market in Beijing in the late 90s, so it's most likely a fake, but I wanted to check with you guys just for fun. The case back has a number, but the movement has no markings on it. Plus nothing in the dial aside from the dirskie. Here are some pics: thanks!


In my opinion, there is a good possibility it is a franken because there were no komandirskies made (that is a komandirskie case and back) without the date mechanism that I have seen pictured in a catalog. Now some will say that during this time "anything goes" because things were in such disarray, but to me that means it's going to be almost impossible to authenticate and so I would recommend buying from another more stable period if authenticity is important. If you had bought it from a Boctok store or from the original owner who bought it from a Boctok store and you trusted him or he had some decent paperwork then that would be interesting. Otherwise when it comes to Russian watches of really unknown origin it's guilty until proven innocent, as I see it.

By the way, you may find that it has a 2414 movement with date function under the dial working away unseen or with date function removed. I have seen this and it works fine but it does certainly indicate a franken.


----------



## MattBrace

I guess all things are possible ?


----------



## MattBrace

And Here's one new in the box currently for sale on eBay.


----------



## chronomancer

Thanks for the info! I did try nudging the balance wheel, but to no avail. I'll have to bring it in. Maybe they can clean her up a bit too. I am not too concerned with authenticity, the piece has strictly sentimental value, but I was curious about it. I also like it because I got it before I got into watches for real and now I find out it is a staple of the Russian collection world. It just recently resurfaced after a move. Since I didn't make a whole lot of "great choices" back in the 90s I feel good that the Komandirskie purchase at the Silk Market was, perhaps, a good decision. Anyhow, I will follow up when I get around to fixing it! Thanks everyone. One last question: will it say the movement model number on the movement somewhere?



schnurrp said:


> In my opinion, there is a good possibility it is a franken because there were no komandirskies made (that is a komandirskie case and back) without the date mechanism that I have seen pictured in a catalog. Now some will say that during this time "anything goes" because things were in such disarray, but to me that means it's going to be almost impossible to authenticate and so I would recommend buying from another more stable period if authenticity is important. If you had bought it from a Boctok store or from the original owner who bought it from a Boctok store and you trusted him or he had some decent paperwork then that would be interesting. Otherwise when it comes to Russian watches of really unknown origin it's guilty until proven innocent, as I see it.
> 
> By the way, you may find that it has a 2414 movement with date function under the dial working away unseen or with date function removed. I have seen this and it works fine but it does certainly indicate a franken.


----------



## chronomancer

MattBrace said:


> And Here's one new in the box currently for sale on eBay.


That looks like the exact same one I have, except in much better condition.


----------



## schnurrp

MattBrace said:


> I guess all things are possible ?


I certainly respect the collector, comrade MattBrace, but that dial appears definitely meant for an "antimagnetic" watch and that means amphibian to me. I would need more provenance.


----------



## schnurrp

MattBrace said:


> And Here's one new in the box currently for sale on eBay.


Now this one appears to be authentic even being described as a komandirskie and movement 2409 A. I would feel much better about this one because it has some provenance.

Now just because this one appears authentic does not, of course, mean every komandirskie with a similar submarine dial is now deemed authentic.

Of course you have to realize I'm just giving you _my_ thoughts on the matter. You have to satisfy yourself and there are many inconsistencies found in our hobby, to say the least.


----------



## cheetahrd

Can some one please tell if this watch is real or not. posting the pictures


----------



## Lampoc

Looks like a pretty good and original early 80s Sturmanskie to me. Have a look here at the 1981-1985 section here for more info: Polmax3133

Some more good info here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html


----------



## sq100

cheetahrd said:


> Can some one please tell if this watch is real or not. posting the pictures


Those are pictures from a respected and frequent member of this forum, he also posts alot in this thread ;-)


----------



## cheetahrd

Please help me. I have fallen in love with 3133 and wanted to procure one. I apologize for posting here to find whether the watch is real or not.

Found this Poljot in E-bay. Can some one tell me if it is real


----------



## Ham2

cheetahrd said:


> Please help me. I have fallen in love with 3133 and wanted to procure one. I apologize for posting here to find whether the watch is real or not. Found this Poljot in E-bay. Can some one tell me if it is real


Looks correct


----------



## cheetahrd

Ham2 said:


> Looks correct


Thank you Ham2. unfortunatley the watch got sold before i could give an offer.


----------



## Ham2

cheetahrd said:


> Thank you Ham2. unfortunatley the watch got sold before i could give an offer.


 there are a couple more of these currently for sale on e-bay (Cyrillic and Latin dials)


----------



## fliegerchrono

cheetahrd said:


> Thank you Ham2. unfortunatley the watch got sold before i could give an offer.


Patience comrade, patience, they turn up regularly on ebay and sometimes here on the sales forum!


----------



## stylish.accountant

Hi guys.. I need your help on a 31659.

Any red flag on this one?


























Thanks before.


----------



## Ham2

stylish.accountant said:


> Hi guys.. I need your help on a 31659. Any red flag on this one? Thanks before.


 Looks good in that there are no obvious red flags. It appears to have been relumed and the chrono minute and seconds hands repainted


----------



## stylish.accountant

Ham2 said:


> Looks good in that there are no obvious red flags. It appears to have been relumed and the chrono minute and seconds hands repainted


Cool. Thanks!


----------



## GuessWho

Here's a little something I got in the mail. Honestly not sure if it is a franken or not, but I've always wanted a Soviet Molnija wristwatch and it came from a trusted seller so there is a chance it is legit.














Under the hood is a typical 3602, the dial/hands seem legit and I've seen pocket watches with the same combo from Molnija.

So the question is: Pocket watch dropped into a conversion case? Or something from the factory?


----------



## cheetahrd

Need advice on this poljot. any red flags?


----------



## polmax3133

It looks like the second-stop function has missing parts.


----------



## cheetahrd

polmax3133 said:


> It looks like the second-stop function has missing parts.


Thank you polmax3133...


----------



## schnurrp

cheetahrd said:


> Need advice on this poljot. any red flags?
> View attachment 2640362
> View attachment 2640386
> 
> View attachment 2640418
> View attachment 2640434


In the last picture the lever that stops the balance wheel is not visible as it should be, and must be missing:


----------



## Ham2

cheetahrd said:


> Need advice on this poljot. any red flags?


 Also looks like the chronograph reset lever is a replacement. Should it not be a one-piece rather than the older 2-piece seen in earlier 3133s?


----------



## schnurrp

GuessWho said:


> Here's a little something I got in the mail. Honestly not sure if it is a franken or not, but I've always wanted a Soviet Molnija wristwatch and it came from a trusted seller so there is a chance it is legit.
> View attachment 2617882
> 
> View attachment 2617890
> 
> Under the hood is a typical 3602, the dial/hands seem legit and I've seen pocket watches with the same combo from Molnija.
> 
> So the question is: Pocket watch dropped into a conversion case? Or something from the factory?


It is not a conversion case containing a pocket watch since the dial is misaligned (pocket watches have the crown at "12"). It is not a wrist watch from Molnija, either, in my opinion. Here's an example of a Molnija wristwatch:










In my opinion it is a Molnija pocket watch which has had lugs carefully soldered to the case and the dial with its "feet" removed has been rotated 90 degrees and stuck to the movement with double-faced tape.

Or a pocket watch dial replacing a bad Type I dial attached as above. A movement picture might be instructive.


----------



## schnurrp

Ham2 said:


> Also looks like the chronograph reset lever is a replacement. Should it not be a one-piece rather than the older 2-piece seen in earlier 3133s?


I didn't notice that but I suppose it could be a replacement by the wing watchmaking seargant in order to allow pilot to fly emergency mission but the missing lever is fatal, in my opinion, as it would be very difficult to replace. The crown retainer seems to be correct as you can see the pin poking up just below the crown release button. This would engage one end of the stop lever. This movement will not hack.


----------



## cheetahrd

Thank you All for your expert advice...


----------



## BizzyC

Any concerns with this guy ...














































It looks ok to me but the reason I ask is because it's very clean which typically raises a red flag. Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Replaced hands.
.


----------



## Thelongroad

Any advice on this one ?

Rare Ussr Russian Watch KGB ZIM 901B | eBay

TIA


----------



## schnurrp

Fantasy watch constructed to attract new collectors. Don't encourage this type of activity by buying is my advice, comrade.


----------



## pablo67

any reason to suspect this isn't what it appears to be?


----------



## Ham2

pablo67 said:


> any reason to suspect this isn't what it appears to be?


Looks correct


----------



## kev80e

Ham2 said:


> Looks correct


OK so what is it? Been looking and cannot find it anywhere.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

schnurrp said:


> Replaced hands.


Schnurrp, what's your opinion on the dial? I purchased a similar 119 that I used for parts. I assumed, and maybe I shouldn't have, that it was a franken because of the gold markers on the dial. It sold for franken prices, too.


----------



## Ham2

kev80e said:


> OK so what is it? Been looking and cannot find it anywhere.


 As you see, it is a dressier/less military style of Amphibian. Will be a 2409 inside (?) and I think they tend to date from the 90s-00s (someone far more more knowledgeable on Vostoks than me will likely chime in). They turn up regularly on E-bay.


----------



## kev80e

Ham2 said:


> As you see, it is a dressier/less military style of Amphibian. Will be a 2409 inside (?) and I think they tend to date from the 90s-00s (someone far more more knowledgeable on Vostoks than me will likely chime in). They turn up regularly on E-bay.


Thanks Ham. Been looking at dress watches . Really need one and this is nice.


----------



## schnurrp

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Schnurrp, what's your opinion on the dial? I purchased a similar 119 that I used for parts. I assumed, and maybe I shouldn't have, that it was a franken because of the gold markers on the dial. It sold for franken prices, too.


I'm not sure. I don't remember ever seeing one like that but the only little detail that does not match Antonov's example is the slightly wider white strip between the gold of some of the hour markers. Everything else looks spot on, even the "T" in "BocToK" raised up above the other letters slightly. If's it's a reproduction it's a good one and I would question going to the trouble for a relatively inexpensive not so rare dial that's rarely seen in gold. Maybe someone else has seen the gold dial before.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

schnurrp said:


> I'm not sure. I don't remember ever seeing one like that but the only little detail that does not match Antonov's example is the slightly wider white strip between the gold of some of the hour markers. Everything else looks spot on, even the "T" in "BocToK" raised up above the other letters slightly. If's it's a reproduction it's a good one and I would question going to the trouble for a relatively inexpensive not so rare dial that's rarely seen in gold. Maybe someone else has seen the gold dial before.


My apologies, I should've been clearer as to what I was thinking/asking: I assumed that the dial with the gold markers had been taken out of a Vostok with a gold case and put into an Amphibian. Generally, I've noticed, dial markers & hands match the case, although it's clearly a rule that can be broken. 
Seeing another blue dial with gold markers in an Amphibian here on WUS, and nobody saying it's a franken, makes me wonder if I've dismantled a rare Amphibia variant!


----------



## schnurrp

RustyNutsMGs said:


> My apologies, I should've been clearer as to what I was thinking/asking: I assumed that the dial with the gold markers had been taken out of a Vostok with a gold case and put into an Amphibian. Generally, I've noticed, dial markers & hands match the case, although it's clearly a rule that can be broken.
> Seeing another blue dial with gold markers in an Amphibian here on WUS, and nobody saying it's a franken, makes me wonder if I've dismantled a rare Amphibia variant!


This "antimagnetic" version is on ebay now. It looks gold to me but it may be the lighting. Originally posted dial may be authentic but it makes you wonder why the hands change. A dial that pristine would have equally nice hands I would suspect.




























hands look nickel.


----------



## kev80e

Seen this and wanted your opinions. Any alarm bells. As he also has dials for sale so obviously strips them wanted check. Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## BizzyC

schnurrp said:


> This "antimagnetic" version is on ebay now. It looks gold to me but it may be the lighting. Originally posted dial may be authentic but it makes you wonder why the hands change. A dial that pristine would have equally nice hands I would suspect.
> 
> hands look nickel.


This watch is a mystery to me. The hands are clearly wrong (and I feel like a total noob for not noticing it right away) but the dial is in almost perfect condition. Also, the bezel, case and bracelet are in excellent condition as well. Take a look at the bracelet in one of the original pictures - does it look correct for the time period? It has a fat pin connecting the links.

If everything else about the watch is accurate then I would assume that the original hands would have been in just as good of shape so why take them off? Very odd...


----------



## pablo67

Ham2 said:


> Looks correct


Thanks. picked it up on Etsy. Out of curiosity, when did Vostok's stop saying CCCP on them?


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> Seen this and wanted your opinions. Any alarm bells. As he also has dials for sale so obviously strips them wanted check. Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> View attachment 2699882
> View attachment 2699890


I would say that any dial in what looks like a type 320 soviet-era amphibian case should say "made in USSR" somehwere. Also it appears the bezel has had a lume dot applied. The original lume dots on the amphibians had a plastic cover. This is commonly done to convert a red dot komandirskie bezel.










Oh, and also the second hand is wrong and I don't know of a type 320 amphibian with a date function movement.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> I would say that any dial in what looks like a type 320 soviet-era amphibian case should say "made in USSR" somehwere. Also it appears the bezel has had a lume dot applied. The original lume dots on the amphibians had a plastic cover. This is commonly done to convert a red dot komandirskie bezel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and also the second hand is wrong and I don't know of a type 320 amphibian with a date function movement.


Thanks . Can't believe I missed the date window bit. Didn't know about the lume dot so something else I've learnt. Didn't think that dial looked right , so must be getting better at spotting things wrong ,well a tiny bit, really tiny bit.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

schnurrp said:


> This "antimagnetic" version is on ebay now. It looks gold to me but it may be the lighting. Originally posted dial may be authentic but it makes you wonder why the hands change. A dial that pristine would have equally nice hands I would suspect.
> hands look nickel.


Mysterious! I hope I didn't waste a good watch as a parts watch. I had a good root around my watch parts last night and couldn't find the dial. 
I'd like to have a pile of catalogs covering every year of production!


----------



## cheetahrd

hi All,

This watch was supposed to be my first poljot. ordered in Ebay from Ukranian seller one month back, watch disappeared after reaching USA -got delivered to wrong address. opened a case and got my refund. The seller without asking send the below watch mentioning its his own, seller told we will work things out after i get the 2nd watch (below one).tracked it and finally got my hands on this. meanwhile ordered 2 other poljots and got it before this one. That makes this watch my 3rd 3133.
The buttons looks rough. Need to know whether i should send this back to Ukraine( dont know how) as i already got my refund.

your expert advice needed on this watch, Any red flags


----------



## polmax3133

It's difficult to say with the lighting, but it looks as though the jumper spring was repaired at some point, the rotating bezel crown has been replaced, and the dial has some issues with upside down and non-matching lume on the indices. Otherwise, the dial looks alright, and it is the Cyrillic version which is nice. Another cool feature is the bezel which looks to be one of the older versions with the red numerals - again, it's difficult to say for sure with the lighting.


----------



## cheetahrd

polmax3133 said:


> It's difficult to say with the lighting, but it looks as though the jumper spring was repaired at some point, the rotating bezel crown has been replaced, and the dial has some issues with upside down and non-matching lume on the indices. Otherwise, the dial looks alright, and it is the Cyrillic version which is nice. Another cool feature is the bezel which looks to be one of the older versions with the red numerals - again, it's difficult to say for sure with the lighting.


bezel has red numerals, Thank you Polmax3133.
Will the repair on jumper spring cause any future trouble? Does the issue with dial affects the value of the watch.


----------



## polmax3133

cheetahrd said:


> bezel has red numerals, Thank you Polmax3133.
> Will the repair on jumper spring cause any future trouble? Does the issue with dial affects the value of the watch.


I'm not sure about the repair to the spring, but you can always buy a replacement Valjoux 7734 jumper spring - albeit an expensive replacement part. And yes, the value is decreased due to the mismatched components, such as the serif font on the dial and red numbers on the bezel, as well as the issues with the indices. However, the old bezels are not easy to find so I would definitely hang on to that for possible future use with an older model.


----------



## cheetahrd

polmax3133 said:


> I'm not sure about the repair to the spring, but you can always buy a replacement Valjoux 7734 jumper spring - albeit an expensive replacement part. And yes, the value is decreased due to the mismatched components, such as the serif font on the dial and red numbers on the bezel, as well as the issues with the indices. However, the old bezels are not easy to find so I would definitely hang on to that for possible future use with an older model.


Thank you Polmax3133


----------



## GuessWho

schnurrp said:


> It is not a conversion case containing a pocket watch since the dial is misaligned (pocket watches have the crown at "12"). It is not a wrist watch from Molnija, either, in my opinion. Here's an example of a Molnija wristwatch:
> 
> In my opinion it is a Molnija pocket watch which has had lugs carefully soldered to the case and the dial with its "feet" removed has been rotated 90 degrees and stuck to the movement with double-faced tape.
> 
> Or a pocket watch dial replacing a bad Type I dial attached as above. A movement picture might be instructive.


Thanks Schnurrp! Now that I know it is a franken I don't feel bad using some glue on the bezel (pops off a little too easy for my liking). Can't fault it as a time keeper though, +2s in the last 24 hours is pretty good in my books! Here is a pic of the movement if anyone is interested, looks somewhat modern (possibly post-Soviet, I'm not really sure):








Wearing it with this strap today, I'll admit I quite like this one even though it is a franken:


----------



## GUTuna

I recently picked up this Vostok. The bezel is incorrect on it, isn't it? At the price, really I was after the face and movement.









If it's not the correct bezel, can someone point me in the right direction as I'd like to pick one up to have it subbed out. I have another Amphibia that had a purchased for parts, if that one is of any use. Thanks!


----------



## slowprop

I'm interested in acquiring one or two CCCP vintage watches and I particularly like the Amphibia 2209 Tonneau. I saw these two advertised recently.




Initially I thought they looked great but the more I looked into it the more I think these are pretty far away from being original 1970's watches. My concerns are:-

1) The case is polished and I think the case on these was a kind of matt / brushed stainless steel. These are just too shiny - although I have to say they look nice
2) The condition of the dial and hands look too good to be true. I suspect these have been replaced.

Although the seller has good feedback there was no mention of any of this. Do you guys think I picked up on this correctly or not ?

Also a more general point - I've noticed a lot of older watches have Russian writing in the dial and CCCP. Whilst others which appear to be of similar age have English writing and Made in USSR on them. Is this anything to be concerned about ? and are the ones with CCCP more collectible ?

Thanks


----------



## 103ssv

Hi

you're perfectly right about the hands and dials, both are reproductions.
You can get this dial for $10 in the Bay, original hands from Zenitar for €5, so yo can de the math of the profit this guy makes.
Btw, eve the hands don't even look like Vostok hands.
Also the case should bot be polished, only on the side of the case.

103


----------



## slowprop

103ssv said:


> Hi
> 
> you're perfectly right about the hands and dials, both are reproductions.
> You can get this dial for $10 in the Bay, original hands from Zenitar for €5, so yo can de the math of the profit this guy makes.
> Btw, eve the hands don't even look like Vostok hands.
> Also the case should bot be polished, only on the side of the case.
> 
> 103


Thanks. Looks like I am at least starting to pick up on some of these things. I must admit I hadn't picked up on the hands not being Vostok.


----------



## elsoldemayo

I'm looking to replace my Vostok 24hr watch, which no longer winds, and spotted this one. Having read through a few threads here and in the 24Hr Watch Forum I'm erring on the side of it being ok. This is based on the stamp on the movement, the crystal being domed and the lettering all being in English. Reason I'm have doubts is I don't see an exact copy in any of the pics on here. They all have variations such as not having the pentagon above the Made in USSR text.
So, would love to get some expert opinion on this watches legitimacy.


----------



## kapitan

All good with watch excluding hour's and second hand .


----------



## elsoldemayo

kapitan said:


> All good with watch excluding hour's and second hand .


Thanks for replying. Now that you mention the hour and second hands, when I check other pictures of similar watches I see the hour hand should be the same thickness as the minute hand and the second hand should not have the round end.


----------



## mvmt

How does USSR Soviet POLJOT Orbita Automatic 1MCHZ Kirova 60s U RARE Perfectly | eBay look to the experts?

A couple other ones I spotted:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251823670854

Why is this watch so expensive? Am I missing something? It seems like a standard 24H Raketa to me, is there some variant of this that warrants the price?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271742540336

This is an odd looking Okeah. I assume late model based on the SU stamp. What are the thoughts on the gradient bezel?


----------



## Ham2

mvmt said:


> How does USSR Soviet POLJOT Orbita Automatic 1MCHZ Kirova 60s U RARE Perfectly | eBay look to the experts? A couple other ones I spotted: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251823670854 Why is this watch so expensive? Am I missing something? It seems like a standard 24H Raketa to me, is there some variant of this that warrants the price? http://www.ebay.com/itm/271742540336 This is an odd looking Okeah. I assume late model based on the SU stamp. What are the thoughts on the gradient bezel?


The Orbita is authentic - though the crown might be a (very good) replacement.
The Raketa is franken
I would say the OKEAH is also a franken. There is a degree of consensus that SU stamped movements were not originally found in OKEAH. The movement should have the older two piece reset lever with older date font. The rotating 'sport' bezel is usually seen in a civilian 3133. The dial is original, as are the hands and less common orange chronos hands. The caseback is also authentic.


----------



## mvmt

Ham2 said:


> I would say the OKEAH is also a franken. There is a degree of consensus that SU stamped movements were not originally found in OKEAH. The movement should have the older two piece reset lever with older date font. The rotating 'sport' bezel is usually seen in a civilian 3133. The dial is original, as are the hands and less common orange chronos hands. The caseback is also authentic.


Interesting, do you know the description of the civilian 3133 the bezel came from? I've looked at a lot of 3133 chronographs over the past few months and I don't recall a bezel design like that.


----------



## Ham2

mvmt said:


> Interesting, do you know the description of the civilian 3133 the bezel came from? I've looked at a lot of 3133 chronographs over the past few months and I don't recall a bezel design like that.


That bezel usually associated with this style of 3133 (case should be chromed)


----------



## mvmt

Perfect match. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## mvmt

A *very *interesting Urofa 59 has showed up on the bay recently:

Fliegerchronograph Luftwaffe Glashütte Kaliber Urofa 59 Seltene Ausführung WW2 | eBay

I believe this item has been relisted a few times already with no takers.

What's interesting about this is it is coming from Germany and is marketed as a "luftwaffe" but I think we know better.

Apart from the very unusual all black dial which has no logos of any kind (a first sign this Tutima is a bit different), look at the movement shot:










It has a tell-tale sign of a Russian designed reset spring, as documented in this thread:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/1949-chrono-urofa-59-a-421839.html

Another tell tale sign is the 5 digit serial number (German versions had 6).

I submit that this is actually a Soviet produced Type 59 with German parts and movement.

Interestingly enough there is another all black dial Urofa type 59 on chrono24 right now, but the section of the movement which would reveal the above is somewhat conveniently left out. I suspect it may also be a Soviet piece.

What are the thoughts on this all black dial, as I haven't seen an example in any previous collector's collection before. I suspect since it is a German movement it is an earlier produced copy, with the "spare parts" mentality.


----------



## Ham2

Interesting points. - it is difficult to say one way or the other. The dial may have been restored at some point (the lume looks too white for radium) hence the loss of markings. Though the change in the reset lever (using a pulled wire) is a Soviet modification, I have seen German Urofa 59s with this modification suggesting this might be a common approach to replacement/repair; the Soviet modification (pulled wire) would be easier to make than fabricating a new machine cut lever.


----------



## mvmt

Ham2 said:


> It is difficult to say one way or the other. The Dial may have been restored at some point (the lume looks too white for radium) hence the loss of markings. Though the change in the reset lever (using a pulled wire) is a Soviet modification, I have seen German Urofa 59s with this modification suggesting this might be a common approach to replacement/repair; the Soviet modification (pulled wire) would be easier to make than fabricating a new machine cut lever.


What are your thoughts on the 5 digit serial though? German ones typically have 6. It seems there are a lot of factors adding up here.


----------



## Ham2

As for the 5 digit serial number on the chrono bridge. Interestingly it matches the number on the caseback - if it is an early Soviet Urofa 59 built from war booty, it might be one of the few instances in Soviet horology where they actually cared about serial numbers!  Later Soviet Urofas do not have the matching serial number on the caseback. I was unaware that the Germans only used 6 digit S/N on Urofa 59s - the later Urofa 64s do use 5 digit numbers.


----------



## mvmt

Ham2 said:


> As for the 5 digit serial number on the chrono bridge. Interestingly it matches the number on the caseback - if it is an early Soviet Urofa 59 built from war booty, it might be one of the few instances in Soviet horology where they actually cared about serial numbers!  Later Soviet Urofas do not have the matching serial number on the caseback. I was unaware that the Germans only used 6 digit S/N on Urofa 59s - the later Urofa 64s do use 5 digit numbers.


Very good point about the case back - from what I've seen it would be highly unusual for them to stamp the case back and furthermore the case back is stamped with Ghashuttle signatures indicating the serial number is likely German in origin.

Still, the wire type reset spring is almost identical to Soviet examples. You are right though that it is likely impossible to tell definitively one way or the other. Good discussion none the less!


----------



## venom02

Hi everyone, first time buying a Vostok. can you tell me if this is a legit watch? the price is too low to not be suspicious:

Vostok - Album on Imgur






















I see there is no "CCCP" marking on the face, could it be a franken with a new face? is the movement legit or a cheap chinese?
thanks in advance for your help


----------



## Lampoc

venom02 said:


> Hi everyone, first time buying a Vostok. can you tell me if this is a legit watch? the price is too low to not be suspicious:
> I see there is no "CCCP" marking on the face, could it be a franken with a new face? is the movement legit or a cheap chinese?
> thanks in advance for your help


Looks perfectly fine with a genuine 2414 movement inside. The lack of CCCP or Россия on the dial just means it's an early 90s model produced just after the collapse of the Soviet Union.


----------



## mvmt

What does the community think of these two odd balls?

Extremely RARE Kirovskie 1st GCHZ 1939 Unusual Case Mov Time WWII Watch Soviet | eBay

Soviet Watch Kirovskie 1ГЧЗ 1st State Watch Factory RARE | eBay

Interesting that one of them has a 1939 date stamp (if real).

What exactly are these watches? Some kind of LIP prototype/modified type 1? If 1939 is the date they pre-date the "boy's watch".


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

thoughts on this Raketa Big Zero?


----------



## venom02

Lampoc said:


> Looks perfectly fine with a genuine 2414 movement inside. The lack of CCCP or Россия on the dial just means it's an early 90s model produced just after the collapse of the Soviet Union.


Thanks! i'm gonna put a bid on that


----------



## Thelongroad

a couple here that i would have no idea about, being a newbie and all...















thanks very much.


----------



## sq100

Thelongroad said:


> a couple here that i would have no idea about, being a newbie and all...
> 
> View attachment 2935346
> View attachment 2935354
> 
> 
> thanks very much.


First one is franken, 2nd one looks good to me, although it usually has a different type of bezel.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## schnurrp

Thelongroad said:


> a couple here that i would have no idea about, being a newbie and all...
> 
> View attachment 2935346
> View attachment 2935354
> 
> 
> thanks very much.


Yes first one has parts of maybe 3 different watches, second one maybe only 2. Should look like this one of Michele's:


----------



## Thelongroad

Thanks.


----------



## mvmt

Are these legit watches? If so, what are they?

Extremely RARE USSR Soviet Russian Kirovskie Watch WWII 1MCHZ 1930s | eBay

Extremely RARE Kirovskie 1st GCHZ 1939 Unusual Case Mov Time WWII Watch Soviet | eBay

Soviet Watch Kirovskie 1ГЧЗ 1st State Watch Factory RARE | eBay

Is there a model number for these?


----------



## _Denis_

rainbowbattlekid said:


> thoughts on this Raketa Big Zero?
> 
> View attachment 2928634
> View attachment 2928642
> View attachment 2928650
> View attachment 2928762


Unless anybody knows better, looks legit to me. But i'm not into Raketas.


----------



## cheetahrd

hi all,

came across this sturmanskie watch in Ebay. 
Russian POLJOT 3133 Shturmanskie Chronograph Military Pilot Wacth | eBay

this looks like a military issue from 80's (case does not have rotating bezel crown on left), but the movement is having silver colored wheel which dates to 92-93 and SU stamp.

Any red flags?


----------



## gekos

cheetahrd said:


> hi all,
> 
> came across this sturmanskie watch in Ebay.
> Russian POLJOT 3133 Shturmanskie Chronograph Military Pilot Wacth | eBay
> 
> this looks like a military issue from 80's (case does not have rotating bezel crown on left), but the movement is having silver colored wheel which dates to 92-93 and SU stamp.
> 
> Any red flags?


The pictures are so small that is difficult to be sure but looks OK. The crown is probably replaced with chrome plated and the balance wheel and chronograph seconds hand is 90s most likely this is the production time.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

mvmt said:


> Are these legit watches? If so, what are they?
> 
> Extremely RARE USSR Soviet Russian Kirovskie Watch WWII 1MCHZ 1930s | eBay
> 
> Extremely RARE Kirovskie 1st GCHZ 1939 Unusual Case Mov Time WWII Watch Soviet | eBay
> 
> Soviet Watch Kirovskie 1Ð"Ð§Ð- 1st State Watch Factory RARE | eBay
> 
> Is there a model number for these?


I don't know anything about these, but it _looks_ like the movements have been filed to fit in new cases.


----------



## Ham2

RustyNutsMGs said:


> I don't know anything about these, but it looks like the movements have been filed to fit in new cases.


I am not sure about those. Somehow I remember seeing something similar a few years ago but can't recall the context. Pretty sure those are just 'modified' Type 1 movements. And 3 at one time. Coincidence?


----------



## kev80e

Firstly apologies for asking a question I know has been answered before because I saw it when I first became interested in Russian watches but I cannot find it and can't remember the answer. I have seen a few watches with Komandirskie  on the face and amphibian on the back, is this as they were made in the " its what we had so that's was used way" that seems to have been normal ,especially around the time of the end of the USSR era. I have seen this and like the aeroplane ones but need a little guidance.















Thanks for any advice. Supposed to be working but seem to have distracted again.


----------



## kev80e

kev80e said:


> Firstly apologies for asking a question I know has been answered before because I saw it when I first became interested in Russian watches but I cannot find it and can't remember the answer. I have seen a few watches with Komandirskie  on the face and amphibian on the back, is this as they were made in the " its what we had so that's was used way" that seems to have been normal ,especially around the time of the end of the USSR era. I have seen this and like the aeroplane ones but need a little guidance.
> 
> View attachment 3005002
> View attachment 3005010
> 
> 
> Thanks for any advice. Supposed to be working but seem to have distracted again.


So after some time looking into this I think it's a type 470 case but wrong bezel. I also think it is either a fantasy dial or just plain wrong. 
Would like others thoughts .


----------



## hyzhuang

Okean Commanding POLJOT Russian Chronograph Navy Soviet Watch | eBay
Sturmanskie Watch POLJOT Chronograph Shturmanskie Soviet Russian USSR 3133 | eBay

Quite Doubtful of the hands and dials. could anyone confirm this?


----------



## Ham2

hyzhuang said:


> Okean Commanding POLJOT Russian Chronograph Navy Soviet Watch | eBay Sturmanskie Watch POLJOT Chronograph Shturmanskie Soviet Russian USSR 3133 | eBay Quite Doubtful of the hands and dials. could anyone confirm this?


 The OKEAH is a fake. The Sturmanskie looks okay but the chrono second hand is wrong and the chrono minute counter hand also looks to be a replacement though correct in style.


----------



## kev80e

Got my eye on that Sturmanskie as well. I have seen these with a plane shaped second hand is this what this should have?


----------



## dutchassasin

Kev80e, the dial is original vostok but was made for komandirskie. 
Cant find pictures of the other versions atm, there was also one with a helicopter/tank/truck etc.

Edit: managed to find one on ebay:


----------



## hyzhuang

Ham2 said:


> The OKEAH is a fake. The Sturmanskie looks okay but the chrono second hand is wrong and the chrono minute counter hand also looks to be a replacement though correct in style.


Hmm if thats the case, Gonna report it to Ebay as a Fake/Replica.


----------



## kev80e

Thanks dutchassasin, seen these a bit ,mixed dials and cases. I guess it's down to how original you want things. Personally I go more with do I like it. Could always recast it in the future.


----------



## dutchassasin

kev80e said:


> Thanks dutchassasin, seen these a bit ,mixed dials and cases. I guess it's down to how original you want things. Personally I go more with do I like it. Could always recast it in the future.


Yeah that's also my opinion. The civil airplane dial is very cool :-!
Just noticed that the hands are also komandirskie instead of the original amphibian hands.


----------



## xbassedgodx

Just got this watch from an online re-seller in Ukraine that claims it is a Raketa with 2609NA that is somewhere aged between the 1950's and the 1970's. However trying to do my own due diligence with regards to finding out what model it actually is comes to no avail so I made an account to see if anyone here might know. It originally caught my eye because of the similarities to the German Pilot watches but with a price that made my wallet much happier haha.

Also proud to say that it's my first Russian and definitely wont be the last, franken or not!


----------



## dutchassasin

Doesnt look like a 2609NA raketa movement, looks to be more like a 2603 movement. Lack of inscription suggests to me possible a ZIM 2602 movement.


----------



## kev80e

Any opinions on this.Never seen this colour dial before .




















I like it and really need one so any help appreciated


----------



## cdaranuta

Hi! Does anybody knows something about this kind of wath? Just bought them on ebay and waiting for delivery. The seller said are brand new and that is a rare variant of ZIM or Pobeda.


----------



## mvmt

Interesting Raketa diver:

USSR Early Big Watch RAKETA Diver Amphibian POLJOT Slava | eBay

I've never seen one like that. What's the story behind this one? It seems very strange. Fantasy ?


----------



## dutchassasin

mvmt said:


> Interesting Raketa diver:
> 
> USSR Early Big Watch RAKETA Diver Amphibian POLJOT Slava | eBay
> 
> I've never seen one like that. What's the story behind this one? It seems very strange. Fantasy ?


Early version of the raketa amphibian, too bad the seller is aware that the watch is rare. Would have been a nice catch if the price was right.

/found a thread on the Russian forum: Lots of nice Raketa amphibians including the rare ones.
http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?t=28560&page=70


----------



## mvmt

dutchassasin said:


> Early version of the raketa amphibian, too bad the seller is aware that the watch is rare. Would have been a nice catch if the price was right.
> 
> /found a thread on the Russian forum: Lots of nice Raketa amphibians including the rare ones.
> Ракета-Амфибия - Страница 70 - Часовой форум Watch.Ru


Unfortunately the dial looks different from the reference examples on the Russian watch forum. Looks like the one currently on ebay may be a franken. Still, that bezel seems to be extremely rare.


----------



## dutchassasin

Dial looks ok to me, see page 63 of the link i mentioned a few posts before


----------



## mvmt

dutchassasin said:


> Dial looks ok to me, see page 63 of the link i mentioned a few posts before


A bit hard to follow the conversation from Russian but my impression is the dial in post 700 is authentic.

Часовой форум Watch.Ru - Показать сообщение отдельно - Ракета-Амфибия


----------



## Ham2

That dial looks correct to my eye. Though the image is a bit washed it, it appears to have the gold indices and hands seen on the watch.ru examples.


----------



## heimdalg

It is very strange to me, that it is written "broken" on the box in Romanian.


----------



## dutchassasin

heimdalg said:


> It is very strange to me, that it is written "broken" on the box in Romanian.


Noticed the same thing, but its inpossible to say if the box belongs to the watch eitherway


----------



## Ham2

dutchassasin said:


> Noticed the same thing, but its inpossible to say if the box belongs to the watch eitherway


I wouldn't pay much attention to the box. Seller usually lists a lot of pieces with boxes and non-matched papers.


----------



## hyzhuang

heres another one:


----------



## 33mgb

Hello to all - my first post here so be gentle! Having recently purchased my first Russian watch - a lovely, new Ampibia 120SE, and being very impressed with it I started looking for my second purchase! Anyway, I've been looking at this one and need your help regarding it's authenticity. I've been searching through this thread the last couple of days, and other sources on the net. I've found the same dial and hands and they look OK to my untrained eye. However, the case is described as 'experimental' and I can't find anything similar. The seller of this watch has replaced the crystal and crown (not sure the crown look right) but hat's all. So my question's are - has anybody seen this case design before or is it from another watch? Is the movement OK - should it have any markings? Is the caseback OK (for some reason it has a compass dial included on the inside of it)?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

33mgb said:


> Hello to all - my first post here so be gentle! Having recently purchased my first Russian watch - a lovely, new Ampibia 120SE, and being very impressed with it I started looking for my second purchase! Anyway, I've been looking at this one and need your help regarding it's authenticity. I've been searching through this thread the last couple of days, and other sources on the net. I've found the same dial and hands and they look OK to my untrained eye. However, the case is described as 'experimental' and I can't find anything similar. The seller of this watch has replaced the crystal and crown (not sure the crown look right) but hat's all. So my question's are - has anybody seen this case design before or is it from another watch? Is the movement OK - should it have any markings? Is the caseback OK (for some reason it has a compass dial included on the inside of it)?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could be what's stated by the seller but I don't know. "Experiment" could have been carried out by the seller. Looks like the bezel (uni-dirictional?) is missing. If it's not too expensive might be worth buying but if you're just beginning I would suggest buying a good example of a clearly authentic one as found in the various vintage catalogs and respected online collections.

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## 33mgb

schnurrp said:


> Could be what's stated by the seller but I don't know. "Experiment" could have been carried out by the seller. Looks like the bezel (uni-dirictional?) is missing. If it's not too expensive might be worth buying but if you're just beginning I would suggest buying a good example of a clearly authentic one as found in the various vintage catalogs and respected online collections.
> 
> Welcome to the forum!


That's great, thanks for the reply.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mvmt

This is a weird one.

Antique IWC Schaffhausen Swiss Original Men&apos;s Watch Henry Moser Cie NKPS USSR | eBay

Gostrest Tochmekh dial dates it to earliest 1926, yet USSR coat of arms dates the inscription to 1922.


----------



## Andrew Minter

So I ran across this (and it's my first Russian) and I have very limited watch experience already. I but the bullet and bought it because it has some really cool value if it is real. I was willing to take the chance. So here-in lies the Vostok "Military Academy" watch. I dubbed that myself haha

edit: I haven't opened it yet but I'm pretty confident it's running a 2416b
edit 2: I should be able to open this tomorrow and confirm its a 2416b


----------



## fliegerchrono

kev80e said:


> Any opinions on this.Never seen this colour dial before .
> View attachment 3023090
> View attachment 3023098
> View attachment 3023122
> 
> 
> I like it and really need one so any help appreciated


Looks like a blue dial from around 1993 , originally it's vibrant blue but it does fade thanks to sunlight.


----------



## dutchassasin

Andrew Minter, that watch is legit i have seen it a couple of times before in the same configuration :-!
Bezels says something like: "Military engineering academy" if i remember correctly.


----------



## mvmt

Could this be the original bracelet for the Orbita? It seems to fit the watch quite well.

Soviet POLJOT Orbita Automatic Watch Shock Resist 29 Jewels | eBay


----------



## valter-g

mvmt said:


> Could this be the original bracelet for the Orbita? It seems to fit the watch quite well.
> 
> Soviet POLJOT Orbita Automatic Watch Shock Resist 29 Jewels | eBay


This orbita really looks nice, and the bracelet too, but I'd say they are not intended to go together; the bracelet is produced by Tallin experimental jewelry company (nowdays Estonia), and is designated only "bracelet for watches". It looks of more recent production than watch, IMHO.

I have to add, some very interesting watches by this seller, but awfully priced. Plus some fake WW2 medals (two Sevastopols?! Cmon!!!) and some other with fake/messed with documents, which all in all increases my suspicions about this seller.


----------



## mvmt

valter-g said:


> This orbita really looks nice, and the bracelet too, but I'd say they are not intended to go together; the bracelet is produced by Tallin experimental jewelry company (nowdays Estonia), and is designated only "bracelet for watches". It looks of more recent production than watch, IMHO.
> 
> I have to add, some very interesting watches by this seller, but awfully priced. Plus some fake WW2 medals (two Sevastopols?! Cmon!!!) and some other with fake/messed with documents, which all in all increases my suspicions about this seller.


Yes, I have to agree. I've had my eye on this seller for a while and he routinely has some truly bizarre franken watches that almost defy explanation. My philosophy with him is that even a broken clock and be right twice a day, he does occasionally have a diamond in the rough but if you are buying from him you really have to know what you are doing.

In other news I saw this 17J Sturmanskie sell on ebay recently. It seemed to be in pretty good condition. Wonder if a forum member grabbed it? Just not sure about the crown. These in any condition seem to be rare these days.

Original USSR Shturmanskie Gagarin 1MCHZ | eBay


----------



## Ham2

mvmt said:


> In other news I saw this 17J Sturmanskie sell on ebay recently. It seemed to be in pretty good condition. Wonder if a forum member grabbed it? Just not sure about the crown. These in any condition seem to be rare these days. Original USSR Shturmanskie Gagarin 1MCHZ | eBay


 That was a nice condition 17 jewel Sturmanskie - all looked correct, even the crown (think Sportivnie).


----------



## kev80e

*POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*

I am looking for a nice black dial watch to wear to my brothers wedding and I like this. Obviously I realise this is a rubbish excuse to buy another watch but need to convince my wife.


----------



## dutchassasin

*Re: POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*

please post it in the right area: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? 
I have not mutch knowledge about pobeda watches but the dial looks a common tourist fake.


----------



## joeuk

*Re: POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*

Not an expert on Russian watches as I am new, only thing I see is how the movement is not held in the case with screws or spacer, makes me wonder if that belong in that case. Maybe others could shed some light on this.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*

Sorry your right should have posted in fraken thread. It is the dial that I had concerns about. Case and movement look right compared to some on USSR Time.


----------



## GuessWho

*Re: POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*



joeuk said:


> Not an expert on Russian watches as I am new, only thing I see is how the movement is not held in the case with screws or spacer, makes me wonder if that belong in that case. Maybe others could shed some light on this.


It is actually quite normal for Pobedas to be cased like that. Not sure why, but many legitimate Pobeda's (including mine) have the "missing screws" as well.

The dial and hands are not genuine, they were added sometime recently to make this a "tourist" piece.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*

Thanks Guess Who, nice to know my suspicions were right , doesn't happen very often .


----------



## joeuk

*Re: POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*

Thanks for the info on that Guesswho , its strange why they opted for loose movement even a good plastic spacer would be better, don't they move about a bit esp when tipping upside down?


----------



## hyzhuang

*Re: POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*

Recently bought this off ebay.. I hope its not a franken? If its is what could be done to rectify it?


----------



## Chascomm

*Re: POBEDA anybody see anything wrong?*



kev80e said:


> I am looking for a nice black dial watch to wear to my brothers wedding and I like this. Obviously I realise this is a rubbish excuse to buy another watch but need to convince my wife.
> View attachment 3165098
> 
> View attachment 3165114


For convenience, I've moved this to the franken thread.

The case, back and movement all look like a typical 1990s Pobeda. The dial is a fantasy piece roughly inspired by the Gagarin Shturmanskie with a fantasy brand "Aviarazvedka" (which is one way of avoiding infringement of trademark I guess). The hands are an Aviator style.

The missing screws are not the problem. They are for securing the movement in a top-loading case. As you can see, in this instance the entire movement/dial combo will drop out the back. So what is needed is a spacer that will brace the movement laterally and vertically in the case. Not all spacers need to be secured with screws. Those little tabs sticking up each side of the movement are not part of the case so they must be part of the spacer. Usually these flat spacers have a little collar that fits over the stem, but this one looks like it's just split to admit the stem. The main plate of the 2602 extends just slightly beyond the top plates, and that rim is what the spacer is bracing against.


----------



## Ham2

hyzhuang said:


> Recently bought this off ebay.. I hope its not a franken? If its is what could be done to rectify it?


 Sorry to say, but it is franken. The movement has been rebuilt (most obvious is the presence of a the crown stamp on the chronograph bridge seen in very early 3133s and the crown stamp on the plate to the left of the balance wheel seen in later versions of the 3133. You have a mix of chrono gear wheels (silver and golden: earlier 3133s had silver wheels only). The two-piece reset lever may also be a replacement (looks shiner than rest of movement). The hour and minute hands are not correct for this dial style (earlier model) and the dial indices relumed (on that dial style the correct hands and indices should have white lume). The chrono second hand is a replacement and not correct in style. Hopefully it didn't cost a lot. And if you replace the hands with the correct ones you will have a decent looking watch (assuming it keeps correct time and the chrono works correctly).


----------



## Andrew Minter

dutchassasin said:


> Andrew Minter, that watch is legit i have seen it a couple of times before in the same configuration :-!
> Bezels says something like: "Military engineering academy" if i remember correctly.


dutchassasin, I really appreciate the feedback! I'm hoping to look into it a little more this week and further. Thanks again!

Andrew


----------



## hyzhuang

Ham2 said:


> Sorry to say, but it is at worst franken, at best rebuilt. The movement has been rebuilt (most obvious is the presence of a the crown stamp on the chronograph bridge seen in very early 3133s and the crown stamp on the plate to the left of the balance wheel seen in later versions of the 3133. You have a mix of chrono gear wheels (silver and golden: earlier 3133s had silver wheels only). The two-piece reset lever may also be a replacement (looks shiner than rest of movement). The hour and minute hands are not correct for this dial style (earlier model) and the dial indices relumed (on that dial style the correct hands and indices should have white lume). The chrono second hand is a replacement and not correct in style. Hopefully it didn't cost a lot. And if you replace the hands with the correct ones you will have a decent looking watch (assuming it keeps correct time and the chrono works correctly).


Damn. Paid $280 USD for that. So I should for now replace all the hands with the right ones and it Should look decent? Any leads where I can get hold of them??


----------



## slowprop

Hi Guys,

I am looking around for one of these Kirovskies. I've come across this one but I have a feeling it's not original it's the shape of the crown that concerns me. I think it shouldn't be as flat as this and should have a more pointed shape to it. Any opinions please ?


----------



## Ham2

slowprop said:


> Hi Guys, I am looking around for one of these Kirovskies. I've come across this one but I have a feeling it's not original it's the shape of the crown that concerns me. I think it shouldn't be as flat as this and should have a more pointed shape to it. Any opinions please ? http://s122.photobucket.com/user/robinw26/media/watches wanted/_12.jpg.html http://s122.photobucket.com/user/robinw26/media/watches wanted/_12 1.jpg.html http://s122.photobucket.com/user/robinw26/media/watches wanted/_12 2.jpg.html


Just as you suspected, the crown is wrong.


----------



## Ham2

hyzhuang said:


> Damn. Paid $280 USD for that. So I should for now replace all the hands with the right ones and it Should look decent? Any leads where I can get hold of them??


 I would return it or ask for a substantial discount to pay for defrankening (you should be able to find hands or a broken 3133 on e-bay). You should be able to find an unmolested Sturmanskie for close to the price you paid for the one you have. Feel free to get opinions on authenticity from the forum for watches you are interested in.


----------



## slowprop

Ham2 said:


> Just as you suspected, the crown is wrong.


Thanks. I am in no hurry so I will hang on for the right one.


----------



## hyzhuang

Ham2 said:


> I would return it or ask for a substantial discount to pay for defrankening (you should be able to find hands or a broken 3133 on e-bay). You should be able to find an unmolested Sturmanskie for close to the price you paid for the one you have. Feel free to get opinions on authenticity from the forum for watches you are interested in.


Correct me if I'm wrong, Seems like the dial is wrong too? I cant find one that has the ilum part that is green (I can only find white)


----------



## Ham2

hyzhuang said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, Seems like the dial is wrong too? I cant find one that has the ilum part that is green (I can only find white)


The dial has been resumed to match the hour and minute hands - those hands usually have green lume (except for on a rarer early version of the OKEAH with white lunes indices and hands)


----------



## hyzhuang

Ham2 said:


> The dial has been resumed to match the hour and minute hands - those hands usually have green lume (except for on a rarer early version of the OKEAH with white lunes indices and hands)


Any pictures? Confused with so many variants. Pardon my ignorance..


----------



## bobski

Hey Guys, I am a long time lurker and first time poster! WUS is single handedly responsible for my addiction! I feel i have learnt so much.... but there is so much to learn! I have a modest watch collection and have been thinking of buying some vintage Russian, or Easter-Block (eg Prim) for a while. There are 6 watches I am currently trying to decide about! I would love some help as to whether they are originals or frankens, and any further comments are always much appreciated.

Thanks in advance, I hope posting 6 watches is not too excessive! I will post them in the subsequent posts.... hope I am doing the right thing!


----------



## bobski

2nd Prim!


----------



## bobski

A Raketa


----------



## bobski

Another Raketa!


----------



## bobski




----------



## bobski

And the last post of pictures I promise..... for a while anyway!!! The final Vostok







Has this dial been repainted? 








Sorry guys I didn't realise how BIG the photos would come out! I am not sure how to make them smaller....


----------



## kev80e

Your opinions on this would be appreciated.


----------



## Chascomm

kev80e said:


> Your opinions on this would be appreciated.
> View attachment 3187354
> 
> View attachment 3187362


I don't recall seeing this bezel on this sort of Vostok, but then I recall that they had at least 2 bezel styles to suit this series of cases (of which there were at least 2 variants). This series were released with both "BOCTOK" and "VOSTOK Century Time" branding. Even when brand new there were signs of mixing-and-matching at the factory (e.g. English dial with Russian back or vice versa). I remember back in 2002 there was a chap called Vic in Novosibirsk whose on-line shop sold a lot of these.


----------



## Chascomm

bobski said:


> View attachment 3186578


The black paint on the hands does not look original to me, and I think the style of the hour and minute hands should be like in your second Prim below.


----------



## Chascomm

bobski said:


> Another Raketa!
> View attachment 3186626


I've seen a few of these paper-dialled big case Raketas. Almost certainly post-Soviet in spite of what is marked on the dial. Usually they reproduce the Glasnost/Perestroika dials of the Gorbachev years, or other similarly striking designs. It is odd to see one that is so plain. I have wondered whether they are genuine Raketas that have been modified or bootleg watches assembled outside of the factory.


----------



## kev80e

Chascomm said:


> I don't recall seeing this bezel on this sort of Vostok, but then I recall that they had at least 2 bezel styles to suit this series of cases (of which there were at least 2 variants). This series were released with both "BOCTOK" and "VOSTOK Century Time" branding. Even when brand new there were signs of mixing-and-matching at the factory (e.g. English dial with Russian back or vice versa). I remember back in 2002 there was a chap called Vic in Novosibirsk whose on-line shop sold a lot of these.


Thanks Chascomm , much appreciated. Might try and get it. I made the seller an offer on another one which they declined and then barred me from their auctions for some reason, have asked why and waiting for reply.


----------



## bobski

Chascomm said:


> I've seen a few of these paper-dialled big case Raketas. Almost certainly post-Soviet in spite of what is marked on the dial. Usually they reproduce the Glasnost/Perestroika dials of the Gorbachev years, or other similarly striking designs. It is odd to see one that is so plain. I have wondered whether they are genuine Raketas that have been modified or bootleg watches assembled outside of the factory.


Thank you for the insight Chascomm. What is a paper-dialled watch? (this may be a noob question!)
I really like the style and wonder what you, or others, think of the movement....


----------



## Chascomm

bobski said:


> Thank you for the insight Chascomm. What is a paper-dialled watch?


Look closely at the texture of the dial of that Raketa. It is like thin card paper. It is quite a different texture from genuine Raketa metal dials.


----------



## mvmt

This is the scariest looking type 59 I've ever seen: Soviet Aviator 1 MCHZ Chronograph 1947 Tutima Urofa Glashutte Watch USSR | eBay

What's worse is he is apparently simply reselling a watch from molotok for about triple the price, doesn't even seem like he owns it yet: Часы Хронограф 1 МЧЗ КИРОВА (5122745641) - купить на торговой площадке, интернет-аукционе Молоток.Ру


----------



## Ham2

mvmt said:


> This is the scariest looking type 59 I've ever seen: Soviet Aviator 1 MCHZ Chronograph 1947 Tutima Urofa Glashutte Watch USSR | eBay What's worse is he is apparently simply reselling a watch from molotok for about triple the price, doesn't even seem like he owns it yet: Ð§Ð°ÑÑ Ð¥ÑÐ¾Ð½Ð¾Ð³ÑÐ°Ñ 1 ÐÐ§Ð ÐÐÐ ÐÐÐ (5122745641) - ÐºÑÐ¿Ð¸ÑÑ Ð½Ð° ÑÐ¾ÑÐ³Ð¾Ð²Ð¾Ð¹ Ð¿Ð»Ð¾ÑÐ°Ð´ÐºÐµ, Ð¸Ð½ÑÐµÑÐ½ÐµÑ-Ð°ÑÐºÑÐ¸Ð¾Ð½Ðµ ÐÐ¾Ð»Ð¾ÑÐ¾Ðº.Ð Ñ


Ignoring the replacement hands that does look to be an early Type 59 using a 'reparations' Glashutte movement (hard to see on my phone but is that a diamond 1MWF logo?). Not sure about the caseback but there have been discussion(s) on the forum about variations in the caseback design. And yes, it is horribly overpriced especially as it would likely be very difficult and/or expensive to find replacement hands to properly restore. The seller has also been discussed in the past - he seems to act as an intermediary/broker for Russian sellers - hence the ridiculous prices (or is it brokerage fees?)


----------



## drbobguy

Any thoughts on this Okean?


----------



## Ham2

drbobguy said:


> Any thoughts on this Okean?


Fake dial


----------



## drbobguy

Ham2 said:


> Fake dial


Thanks. That was my suspicion because it's too clean, but I'm not an expert on the details. Nice to know I was correct.


----------



## Ham2

drbobguy said:


> Thanks. That was my suspicion because it's too clean, but I'm not an expert on the details. Nice to know I was correct.


 Once you know what to look for, the fake E-Bay dials are relatively easy to spot. There should be a well defined (blue) margin separating the subdials from the minute markers. The lume colour is wrong and then font used in OKEAH is also wrong.


----------



## Ham2

bobski said:


> Hey Guys, I am a long time lurker and first time poster! WUS is single handedly responsible for my addiction! I feel i have learnt so much.... but there is so much to learn! I have a modest watch collection and have been thinking of buying some vintage Russian, or Easter-Block (eg Prim) for a while. There are 6 watches I am currently trying to decide about! I would love some help as to whether they are originals or frankens, and any further comments are always much appreciated. Thanks in advance, I hope posting 6 watches is not too excessive! I will post them in the subsequent posts.... hope I am doing the right thing!


The PRIM should look like this.


----------



## 103ssv

Hi all.

I have this one for years now, any thoughts of what it is and it's origin??








If worthless i'm thinking of using the case for something else.


----------



## elsoldemayo

I've just impulse bid and won this watch. Anything I should be worried about based on the pics in the listing, which unfortunately don't have a pic of the movement.


----------



## dutchassasin

103ssv i remember seeing that watch in my book " faszination auf russische uhren".
I can check for you tomorrow and post a picture of it if you want.


----------



## Ham2

elsoldemayo said:


> I've just impulse bid and won this watch. Anything I should be worried about based on the pics in the listing, which unfortunately don't have a pic of the movement.


It is a legitimate model.


----------



## Chascomm

103ssv said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I have this one for years now, any thoughts of what it is and it's origin??
> View attachment 3220370
> 
> 
> If worthless i'm thinking of using the case for something else.


Interesting :think: It looks like a 'Neptune' (integrated bracelet case) but with strap adaptors. I don't recall seeing that before, although can recall seeing the Neptune case in combination with Amphibia bezel and dial.

The dial is not one I've seen before and the lack of lume on this style of dial, along with the general visual texture, gives me the feeling that it was not made by Vostok. The thin, solid hands, over-painted in white look inappropriate, too.

Do you have a photo of the back? I'm confident that it will be a suitable Amphibia type but I'm curious anyway.

At the very least, it's a great case for a project.


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> I've just impulse bid and won this watch. Anything I should be worried about based on the pics in the listing, which unfortunately don't have a pic of the movement.


Appears to be a good pickup...if it has a movment.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

103ssv said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I have this one for years now, any thoughts of what it is and it's origin??
> View attachment 3220370
> 
> 
> If worthless i'm thinking of using the case for something else.


Well, that's an odd dial you have there. The Flanker is a nickname for a particular Soviet/Russian fighter jet, so it could have been a special run ordered by the manufacturer. But if that were the case, you'd think the name "Flanker" would have been written in Cyrillic, not Latin script. Of course, the aircraft was sold to countries that use Latin script, so maybe it was made as a promotional item for use in those countries.

I also would love to see the back, and the movement, as well.

I agree with Chascomm that it looks like the original Neptune case.

Edit: If you search google images for "Vostok Flanker" you'll a couple more of these.


----------



## dutchassasin

Found the picture on page 29 of the book i mentioned before.








To avoid breaching any copyrights, Faszination Russische Uhren, Michael Ceyp. ISBN 3-929-902-82-6. Fair use.
If there is a problem with copyrights, contact me and i will remove it.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Ham2 said:


> It is a legitimate model.





schnurrp said:


> Appears to be a good pickup...if it has a movment.


Thanks Ham and thanks schnurrp...I think  
I've since found it in the old catalogue pics so everything external looks good. Will post up pics of the movement when it arrives... assuming it has one.


----------



## shandy

Can anyone tell me if this was ever a real version of the Buran Polar Bear Penguin dial watch? I have never seen one with the crown at 2 O'clock before! 
Thanks so much in advance.


----------



## 103ssv

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Well, that's an odd dial you have there. The Flanker is a nickname for a particular Soviet/Russian fighter jet, so it could have been a special run ordered by the manufacturer. But if that were the case, you'd think the name "Flanker" would have been written in Cyrillic, not Latin script. Of course, the aircraft was sold to countries that use Latin script, so maybe it was made as a promotional item for use in those countries.
> 
> I also would love to see the back, and the movement, as well.
> 
> I agree with Chascomm that it looks like the original Neptune case.
> 
> Edit: If you search google images for "Vostok Flanker" you'll a couple more of these.


Pics of the back and the movement:


----------



## shandy

Hoping to mine yet again everyone's collective knowledge and many thanks in advance.
Does this ZAKAZ look right or is there anything amiss?








It has a 2234 movement in it.


----------



## Ham2

shandy said:


> Hoping to mine yet again everyone's collective knowledge and many thanks in advance. Does this ZAKAZ look right or is there anything amiss? It has a 2234 movement in it.


 looks correct though second hand looks to have been repainted


----------



## shandy

Ham2 said:


> looks correct though second hand looks to have been repainted


oh that's great, thank you. Would the reprinting be a huge issue or not do you think?
The sellers is asking $80 or best offer, have no idea of the value of these things!


----------



## Ham2

shandy said:


> oh that's great, thank you. Would the reprinting be a huge issue or not do you think? The sellers is asking $80 or best offer, have no idea of the value of these things!


I wouldn't consider a repainted second hand to be an issue - it is very easy to find a replacement hand. $80, though, is a bit steep for a 1st generation in that condition.


----------



## shandy

Ham2 said:


> I wouldn't consider a repainted second hand to be an issue - it is very easy to find a replacement hand. $80, though, is a bit steep for a 1st generation in that condition.


Thanks so much for that. I'm in no great hurry so think I will pass on this example what with the price and seconds hand.
i really appreciate your help.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

103ssv said:


> Pics of the back and the movement:
> View attachment 3232066
> View attachment 3232074


Thanks for taking the time to post these, 103ssv. It's a very interesting piece. The case & movement appear to be original Vostok Neptune. The dial, hands, and swing lugs may be part of a special order?


----------



## schnurrp

shandy said:


> Hoping to mine yet again everyone's collective knowledge and many thanks in advance.
> Does this ZAKAZ look right or is there anything amiss?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has a 2234 movement in it.


Seccond hand should match the finish of the other hands and have an arrow and "feathers". Star looks too red to me, probably painted along with the second hand.

Correct second hand in a different case:

https://picasaweb.google.com/113098239036073221216/gasQMG?noredirect=1#5523865891521998578


----------



## Chascomm

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post these, 103ssv. It's a very interesting piece. The case & movement appear to be original Vostok Neptune. The dial, hands, and swing lugs may be part of a special order?


I agree. The very name "Flanker" being a NATO code for that aircraft marks this as a special order from outside Russia, as well as a lack of Vostok branding on the dial.

And I find it hard to believe that Vostok would choose to use those hands in a watch like this unless somebody else asked for them.


----------



## Chascomm

shandy said:


> Can anyone tell me if this was ever a real version of the Buran Polar Bear Penguin dial watch? I have never seen one with the crown at 2 O'clock before!
> Thanks so much in advance.


Besides the dial, this is in every other regard a 1980s 'civilian' Vostok.

I can accept that 'BYPAH' branding does seem to have been used occasionally by Vostok in the late Soviet era, but how does one make sense of a dial that has a polar bear (representing the Arctic) with penguins (representing the Antarctic) and the Aeroflot logo? What does it mean?


----------



## shandy

Chascomm said:


> Besides the dial, this is in every other regard a 1980s 'civilian' Vostok.
> 
> I can accept that 'BYPAH' branding does seem to have been used occasionally by Vostok in the late Soviet era, but how does one make sense of a dial that has a polar bear (representing the Arctic) with penguins (representing the Antarctic) and the Aeroflot logo? What does it mean?


Yeah, I can't make hide nor hair of it either.
there seems to be no definitive answer as to what this dial means.
I do like the dial though simply as a nice and unusual design.

My only thought is that it's something to do with Celebrating Aeroflot Polar routes?

Thanks for your help.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

Chascomm said:


> I agree. The very name "Flanker" being a NATO code for that aircraft marks this as a special order from outside Russia, as well as a lack of Vostok branding on the dial.
> 
> And I find it hard to believe that Vostok would choose to use those hands in a watch like this unless somebody else asked for them.


I agree that nobody at the factory would have designed that no-name dial or matched it with those hands for general sale to the public. But it wouldn't be the first time a NATO aircraft reporting code made it onto the dial of a Vostok:


----------



## pj228

From what I can tell, these MPS ministry of railway 3133s all had a 4-digit serial starting with 0, and the balance bridge had a date stamp with 2-87. This one looks like it has received a new movement? The adjustable reset level and brass chrono wheels seem to check out fine.


----------



## bobski

I have come across this and with my research I cannot find anything about it. I know the bracelet is citizen.... but that's as far as my knowledge goes! Is this actually a Raketa? Does anyone know anything about it? The design is really catching my eye! Many thanks in advance


----------



## valter-g

shandy said:


> Yeah, I can't make hide nor hair of it either.
> there seems to be no definitive answer as to what this dial means.
> I do like the dial though simply as a nice and unusual design.
> 
> My only thought is that it's something to do with Celebrating Aeroflot Polar routes?
> 
> Thanks for your help.


There was a discussion about these Aeroflot-Buran watches a while ago, and these were my concerns too - penguins and polar bears don't go together. But some more knowledgable collector educated me that it's possible those watches were in fact manufactured in late 80's/early 90's with some connection with Aeroflot. But my concern is that dial on this picture looks lesser quality (although pic isn't the best eaither), and that could mean printed (=fake), and hands are not the same as posted earlier on the forum.

Check here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/boctok-3-penguins-1-polar-bear-hammer-sickle-309955.html


----------



## hyzhuang

Ham2 said:


> I would return it or ask for a substantial discount to pay for defrankening (you should be able to find hands or a broken 3133 on e-bay). You should be able to find an unmolested Sturmanskie for close to the price you paid for the one you have. Feel free to get opinions on authenticity from the forum for watches you are interested in.


So in other words the dails should look like this?


----------



## Ham2

hyzhuang said:


> So in other words the dails should look like this?


 That one looks correct - earlier movement based on the date font - but some of the indices have lost lume. You need to confirm the case is stainless steel and has the distinctive Sturmanskie stamped steel case back. There are 2 dials dials that differ in the shade of grey used (one lighter than the other) and both have that white/cream colored perimeter. There is also a grey dial with a lighter grey rather than white/cream colored perimeter associated with an early version of the 31659 hacking Sturmanskies (the 31659 was only found in cases without the crown at 9). There are also a later dial that look blueish-green but I don't recall if that was 'military issue'. Others on the forum will likely chime in if I missed something or mistaken about something.


----------



## schnurrp

Ham2 said:


> That one looks correct - earlier movement based on the date font - but some of the indices have lost lume. You need to confirm the case is stainless steel and has the distinctive Sturmanskie stamped steel case back. There are 2 dials dials that differ in the shade of grey used (one lighter than the other) and both have that white/cream colored perimeter. There is also a grey dial with a lighter grey rather than white/cream colored perimeter associated with an early version of the 31659 hacking Sturmanskies (the 31659 was only found in cases without the crown at 9). There are also a later dial that look blueish-green but I don't recall if that was 'military issue'. Others on the forum will likely chime in if I missed something or mistaken about something.


Bezel is different, no? Should be black with white numbers round lume dot.


----------



## Ham2

schnurrp said:


> Bezel is different, no? Should be black with white numbers round lume dot.


 Depends on the case type, doesn't it? I thought the round lume dot was found on the case without the crown at 9 (I need to look at my collection to confirm). That case, though, looks a wee bit suspicious - the winding crown looks like it may be chromed and worn, exposing the brass underneath.


----------



## schnurrp

Ham2 said:


> Depends on the case type, doesn't it? I thought the round lume dot was found on the case without the crown at 9 (I need to look at my collection to confirm). That case, though, looks a wee bit suspicious - the winding crown looks like it may be chromed and worn, exposing the brass underneath.


Of course, you are right. Moveable bezel (the third crown didn't register when I glanced at the picture) is as shown in example.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5729128637552790002&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## kev80e

I brought this as a novelty and just because I like it. I'm not sure if these are franken , printed dial? Happy no matter what but would like to know origins. Thanks as usual for any help.


----------



## Lampoc

Definitely a fantasy dial Kev. The real ones have "Том и Джерри" printed on them 
Seriously though, it looks like pretty poor printing and the hands don't even seem to be central on the dial, although that may be due to the angle the photo was taken.


----------



## kev80e

Lampoc said:


> Definitely a fantasy dial Kev. The real ones have "Том и Джерри" printed on them
> Seriously though, it looks like pretty poor printing and the hands don't even seem to be central on the dial, although that may be due to the angle the photo was taken.


As I suspected Lampoc thanks. Still think the case ,type 20? and movement 2414A? are OK and could be handy for spares. Still a bit of fun for £6.70 so not disappointed.


----------



## elsoldemayo

elsoldemayo said:


> I've just impulse bid and won this watch. Anything I should be worried about based on the pics in the listing, which unfortunately don't have a pic of the movement.





schnurrp said:


> Appears to be a good pickup...if it has a movment.





elsoldemayo said:


> Thanks Ham and thanks schnurrp...I think
> I've since found it in the old catalogue pics so everything external looks good. Will post up pics of the movement when it arrives... assuming it has one.


The watch has arrived and there is definitely something inside considering the weight (bloody big watch, could use it to stand on to reach high shelves if the diameter was a bit bigger) and that it's stayed within a few seconds over the last 18hrs.

Next question is what's the easiest way to get the case back off of Poljots? The case is in great condition so don't want to scratch it hacking away at it with a screwdriver trying to prize the back off if there's a trick to getting them off.


----------



## willjackson

Hello! My four year old son absolutely loves the yellow SLAVA chicken clock I've seen on several online sales shacks!
Does anyone have an image of an original one?
The few I've seen all have different hands. 
I'm really interested in one that has the "CCCP" on the back. Thanks!


----------



## GirchyGirchy

This one appears to be legit...price isn't great, but I like it!

Very Vintage Kirovskie Large Mens Wrist Watch 1939 | eBay


----------



## Lampoc

willjackson said:


> Hello! My four year old son absolutely loves the yellow SLAVA chicken clock I've seen on several online sales shacks!
> Does anyone have an image of an original one?
> The few I've seen all have different hands.
> I'm really interested in one that has the "CCCP" on the back. Thanks!


Hi Will. Here's some pictures from a late 70s Slava catalogue:




























Full catalogue here: https://plus.google.com/photos/113098239036073221216/albums/5559147689126226913

Hope this helped!


----------



## dutchassasin

willjackson said:


> Hello! My four year old son absolutely loves the yellow SLAVA chicken clock I've seen on several online sales shacks!
> Does anyone have an image of an original one?
> The few I've seen all have different hands.
> I'm really interested in one that has the "CCCP" on the back. Thanks!


On etsy there are two for sale for quite a reasonable price. Even one with a soviet quality mark 
If that is still too steep, then wait a little im shure they pop up on the bay again. Make shure the beak is still intact, ive seen some examples missing the beak.


----------



## kev80e

willjackson said:


> Hello! My four year old son absolutely loves the yellow SLAVA chicken clock I've seen on several online sales shacks!
> Does anyone have an image of an original one?
> The few I've seen all have different hands.
> I'm really interested in one that has the "CCCP" on the back. Thanks!


Sorry can't do links on here but ebay item 391075299769 May be of interest.


----------



## willjackson

dutchassasin said:


> On etsy there are two for sale for quite a reasonable price. Even one with a soviet quality mark
> If that is still too steep, then wait a little im shure they pop up on the bay again. Make shure the beak is still intact, ive seen some examples missing the beak.[/QUOT
> 
> Thanks for everyone's help. I'm looking at one on Etsy now and this is the back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen some that have a black metal back and this one has an unpainted metal
> back. Which is original? Perhaps the paint was just removed from this one? Or perhaps it varies?


----------



## dutchassasin

Had a quick look for chickens on ebay, nr 221710590014 has the mark and the unpainted back. There also seems to be atleast 3 different dials for the clock, have a look here: 161632850358. 

Im dont think the hands on the example from etsy are original though. The condition of the clock seems very good, bright yellow and not faded. But maybe it better to wait for a 100% legit example.


----------



## shandy

Could anyone tell me if this looks right please?
It's a Zakaz, antimagnetic amphibian case. The 3aka3 looks right but I just wanted to know if the dial and hands are right for such a case? Thanks in advance Comrades.


----------



## Arizone

shandy said:


> Could anyone tell me if this looks right please?
> It's a Zakaz, antimagnetic amphibian case. The 3aka3 looks right but I just wanted to know if the dial and hands are right for such a case? Thanks in advance Comrades.


I'd have to take a guess at no, the Komandirskie pieces are not right, unless someone knows more about that wide case.

Edit: The crystal is missing the retention ring as well, so you can see around the edge of the dial. Definite red flag.


----------



## kev80e

shandy said:


> Could anyone tell me if this looks right please?
> It's a Zakaz, antimagnetic amphibian case. The 3aka3 looks right but I just wanted to know if the dial and hands are right for such a case? Thanks in advance Comrades.


I believe the dial and hands match each other but don't belong in that case which I think is an amphibia case , sure I've seen a large one somewhere .I am still learning myself so I could be wrong Shandy.


----------



## gekos

shandy said:


> Could anyone tell me if this looks right please?
> It's a Zakaz, antimagnetic amphibian case. The 3aka3 looks right but I just wanted to know if the dial and hands are right for such a case? Thanks in advance Comrades.


Wow is this titanium case? I would buy it only to use the oversized case.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/large-case-vostok-amphibia-1645346.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/body-watches-amphibia-titanium-905266.html


----------



## shandy

Thanks so much folks, it was snapped up pretty quickly as it was for sale I think for $29. I thought it might be a diffferent dial. Even if it's not original it's a nice looking watch.

Altered the price as I went back to the listing, it was $29 so even if it's a Fraken it was still a lot of watch for the money!


----------



## Ham2

It is a(nother) conundrum. The case appears to be have signs of wear, so is it a chromed case and therefore correct for a komandirskie (albeit one with a new crystal)?












And it does have an antimagnetic shield, hence the need for an amphibian case back.


----------



## kev80e

Think this is Ok but would like an expert opinion please.


----------



## willjackson

Hello!
I saw a 3aka3 Tankist with a 2414A movement, is this the correct movement or is it a franken? 
Thanks.


----------



## polmax3133

kev80e said:


> Think this is Ok but would like an expert opinion please.


Those dials are actually really nice, kev80e. I have the mi-26 version posted at my web site in the '96 section.


----------



## kev80e

Missed out on it unfortunately got called away and missed the end of the auction.It was listed as a quartz . Love your website by the way.


----------



## willjackson

Hello friends!
I saw this Slava on-line and I love it! But there are no numbers on the movement, so I can't tell if its original. The price is right, but something feels off... Can I get some help?
Sorry, the Images are so small...
















Thank you!!!


----------



## Lampoc

Definitely a genuine Slava 2414 twin barrel movement inside that. Couldn't tell you about the rest of the watch I'm afraid.


----------



## willjackson

Thanks to everyone here, I picked this beauty up a few weeks ago knowing it had Amphibian hands on the Komandirsky dial! I thought it would be a great freshman project to switch out the hands. The crown will also need replacing, but I believe that is a lot harder, maybe jeweler level. Am I right about the Amphibian hands? And am I right about switching out the hands being a relatively easy project? Thanks again masters!


----------



## MattBrace

Both hand changing and crown replacement are easy projects and well within your range with minimal tools, one further observation I have from the pictures, it would appear that the crystal is missing its tension ring as there is a gap visible around the dial, again an easy fix.

Lovely watch, enjoy.
Regards Matt


----------



## willjackson

Oooh, I missed that! Actually, I didn't even realize it!!! lol! I need to look at some more photos to pick that one up! Thanks Matt.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

shandy said:


> Could anyone tell me if this looks right please?
> It's a Zakaz, antimagnetic amphibian case. The 3aka3 looks right but I just wanted to know if the dial and hands are right for such a case? Thanks in advance Comrades.


This certainly appears to be a franken with the rare large titanium Amphibia case. What happened to it? Did you buy it, Ian?


----------



## Lampoc

Prototype case or complete bollocks?


----------



## Lokifish

Didn't have much luck with my other attempt to get clarity so I will try here. It was listed as a "Komandirskie Chistopol". The handa and crown are questionable, but the case is a complete mystery. I can't find any examples that match it. Double tabbed back/case on a Komandirskie?


----------



## emoscambio

Lokifish said:


> Didn't have much luck with my other attempt to get clarity so I will try here. It was listed as a "Komandirskie Chistopol". The handa and crown are questionable, but the case is a complete mystery. I can't find any examples that match it. Double tabbed back/case on a Komandirskie?


The CB logo looks kind of funny, I think.


----------



## shandy

Sorry for the small image but I wonder if folks he could tell me a bit more about this Raketa 24 hour watch. I know this particular model seems to be rife with fantasy dial modifications but they all look to be new.
I came across this one the other day and it really appeals to me due to the subject matter of the dial. The fabled Belka and Strelka cosmonaut dogs.

Was this an official edition by Raketa or is it yet another hodge podge dial job?
If it's an official factory dial I am interested but even though I love the subject matter ( I am 51 and this was covered extensively at my school back in England in the seventies!) the fantasy dial watches have no appeal to me. I got bitten once and don't want it to happen again! 
Thanks in advance!








Oh yes, it contains the 2623 movement which I believe is the correct and true 24 hour movement?


----------



## Lu Xin

Hi, first post here. Was looking around for a Raketa 24 watch and came across *buyinrussia *on ebay. In particular this watch, Soviet Russian Mechanical Watch RAKETA 24 Hours Cali 2623 H Made in USSR 3 RU | eBay. Does it seem real?

Thanks


----------



## Lampoc

Lu Xin said:


> Hi, first post here. Was looking around for a Raketa 24 watch and came across *buyinrussia *on ebay. In particular this watch, Soviet Russian Mechanical Watch RAKETA 24 Hours Cali 2623 H Made in USSR 3 RU | eBay. Does it seem real?
> 
> Thanks


It's almost correct but not quite. It should have either a cyrillic dial to go with the bezel or an English bezel to go with the dial:


----------



## Lu Xin

Lampoc said:


> It's almost correct but not quite. It should have either a cyrillic dial to go with the bezel or an English bezel to go with the dial:


So it's a franken, but is the movement correct? why is it some of the 2623.H is on the gear but in other models i see it on main area? And I really liked this watch..

Thanks for your help!


----------



## peter-g

Please help with this incoming. (Raketa Kopernik) is the case correct or is it a variation ?


----------



## schnurrp

Lu Xin said:


> So it's a franken, but is the movement correct? why is it some of the 2623.H is on the gear but in other models i see it on main area? And I really liked this watch..
> 
> Thanks for your help!


That movement with the numerical designation on the winding gear is usually found on Raketas made in Russian after the fall of the USSR. Also that case with the hidden lugs is for the perpetual calendar I believe.

That is quite a collection of parts as are many of this seller's offerings. Second hand is incorrect.


----------



## schnurrp

In my opinion the Copernicus case/crystal is as unique as the dial. The construction should be like a set of telescoping cylinders starting with the main case then the crystal receiver and then the crystal itself which should be flat with vertical sides. Your example has a more conventional curving construction.


----------



## peter-g

Thanks for the reply. I had a suspicion it was the wrong case.


----------



## willjackson

Hi everyone! Any idea what year this one is from? I am trying to research catalogues. The hands look franken to my novice gut...


----------



## schnurrp

willjackson said:


> Hi everyone! Any idea what year this one is from? I am trying to research catalogues. The hands look franken to my novice gut...


Dial and hands look okay except the second hand is missing its tail. Case is different than the one in the catalog below and Antonov's below it.
https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5510190065612916658&oid=113098239036073221216
https://picasaweb.google.com/113098239036073221216/gasQMG?noredirect=1#5196597856073474722


----------



## shandy

schnurrp said:


> In my opinion the Copernicus case/crystal is as unique as the dial. The construction should be like a set of telescoping cylinders starting with the main case then the crystal receiver and then the crystal itself which should be flat with vertical sides. Your example has a more conventional curving construction.


Schnurrp. You are a mine of information!
In the few places I have read about this watch I have not seen mention of its special case. I just thought it was a special set of hands applied to a normal watch case, movement and dial.This information gives me a whole new insight and appreciation of the watch, thank you!


----------



## Shapi22

Hi, I just got this Zaria off of the bay. It really is a beautiful watch but I'm concerned that it's not original seeing as the case back rattles quite a bit. Thoughts?


----------



## schnurrp

shandy said:


> Schnurrp. You are a mine of information!
> In the few places I have read about this watch I have not seen mention of its special case. I just thought it was a special set of hands applied to a normal watch case, movement and dial.This information gives me a whole new insight and appreciation of the watch, thank you!


Glad to add a little considering how much I have received. Another oddity is the location of the back removal notch which appears as a "bite" out of the main case body seen in my pictures 2 & 3.


----------



## willjackson

thanks Schnurrp. I am bookmarking Antonov's sites!


----------



## schnurrp

willjackson said:


> thanks Schnurrp. I am bookmarking Antonov's sites!


Glad to help, I forgot to mention the catalog is 1977.


----------



## Shapi22

Shapi22 said:


> Hi, I just got this Zaria off of the bay. It really is a beautiful watch but I'm concerned that it's not original seeing as the case back rattles quite a bit. Thoughts?
> View attachment 3639658
> View attachment 3639666


Here's a few more pics of the guts to help with identification. After I opened it and made a slight adjustment the rattling stopped.


----------



## kev80e

Could do with your help with this . Would like'm e to add one to my collection , is this right or do they all have the second hand with the red dot following the orbit line? Any help or advice as usual much appreciated.


----------



## bobski

Hi guys

I am absolutely astounded with the knowledge on this thread. I would like to tap some of that knowledge please!

What do you guys think about this...

















Many thanks in advance!


----------



## Ham2

kev80e said:


> Could do with your help with this . Would like'm e to add one to my collection , is this right or do they all have the second hand with the red dot following the orbit line? Any help or advice as usual much appreciated.


That one has a fake dial. This model should have the little red sputnik second hand.


----------



## Ham2

bobski said:


> Hi guys I am absolutely astounded with the knowledge on this thread. I would like to tap some of that knowledge please! What do you guys think about this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks in advance!


 i don't think there is anything significantly wrong with that (it may have been relumed) though I am not sure about the seconds hand.


----------



## kev80e

Ham2 said:


> That one has a fake dial. This model should have the little red sputnik second hand.


Thanks very much Ham thought as much. Will keep searching .


----------



## elsoldemayo

kev80e said:


> Thanks very much Ham thought as much. Will keep searching .


It should look more like this - sputnik2

Seemingly a dead giveaway for fake dials is the longitude lines not going all the way to the edge of the globe.

Very much open to correction but the 3 below are the only ones I see on ebay that have the correct dial/hands.
Rare Collectible Antique Sputnik Unique Ussr Watch 17 Jewels | eBay
Rare Russian Sputnik Kirovskie 1MCHZ Wrist Watch Ussr 1950'S | eBay
Collectible Soviet Sputnik Poljot Watch Chromed Crab Case Authentic Dial VGC | eBay


----------



## bobski

Thank you for the thoughts Ham2. Much appreciated


----------



## kev80e

Thanks Elsoldemayo that helps a lot now know what to look for


----------



## schnurrp

I believe they all had the red dot "sputnik" second hand when they left the factory. All available catalog views show this. Many available examples have lost their original secons hand and are much less desirable as a collectible, in my humble opinion.

Also fake dial as stated by others and hands are not authentic. Should be flat daggers without line running down the middle. Here's Ill-Phil's. I believe gold is also authentic but nidkel plated is nicer:

sputnik2


----------



## dj898

Rare Russian Ussr Watch Sputnik 1MCHZ 16 Jewels 539 | eBay

Do you experts reckon this is franken or legit?
Looks pretty but something tells me this is not quite genuine?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Dial is a reproduction, the hands are wrong and the case is wrong and the crown too.


----------



## Horza

Bearing in mind I'm new and know nothing but this doesn't seem right. The bezel looks like it's been brutalised to fit, I think it's a Slava. How is that even possible?


----------



## schnurrp

Horza said:


> Bearing in mind I'm new and know nothing but this doesn't seem right. The bezel looks like it's been brutalised to fit, I think it's a Slava. How is that even possible?
> 
> View attachment 3678762


Don't waste your time pondering the skill of the soviet frankenmeister! Probably has parts from several watches (I see at least 3). Did you notice "Raketa" on the dial? That's more than likely what it's being called.

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## Horza

Sorry I meant the bezel is Slava, does that mean the case is or are they interinterchangeable? The crystal isn't right hence the butchery. I'm trying to train myself to know what's what before putting my money down on something wrong. I should have posted this in the "point and laugh" thread.


----------



## kev80e

Need your opinions on this please. I would love to add something like this to my collection. Is the lume on the hands correct , I thought I read it was longer and more pointed at the ends. If they are replacement hands but other wise it's OK then not too much of an issue . It just looks too shiny.


----------



## Ham2

kev80e said:


> Need your opinions on this please. I would love to add something like this to my collection. Is the lume on the hands correct , I thought I read it was longer and more pointed at the ends. If they are replacement hands but other wise it's OK then not too much of an issue . It just looks too shiny.


 Those are the correct hand style for that later (post-Soviet) style dial (early 2000s I think)


----------



## kev80e

Ham2 said:


> Those are the correct hand style for that later (post-Soviet) style dial (early 2000s I think)


Thanks Ham , guess I was getting confused with the older hands. Might have to creep round my wife and put an offer in for it. Couple of others I have my eye on too , think I might prefer an older one.


----------



## Karsten

I have never seen this dial in a Amphibian case.
It is a automatic, and the caseback is the standard one.
The dial is also looking a bit wrong compared to photos of confirmed genuine ones.
Could it possibly be a "special for italian market" .

The bidding is ending very soon, and unless anyone can confirm it is genuine i will only bid "spare parts" price.


----------



## schnurrp

Karsten said:


> I have never seen this dial in a Amphibian case.
> It is a automatic, and the caseback is the standard one.
> The dial is also looking a bit wrong compared to photos of confirmed genuine ones.
> Could it possibly be a "special for italian market" .
> 
> The bidding is ending very soon, and unless anyone can confirm it is genuine i will only bid "spare parts" price.


This amphibian case had not appeared by 1985 and the "Заказ..." is incorrect. Definitely a franken, in my opinion.


----------



## Karsten

schnurrp said:


> This amphibian case had not appeared by 1985 and the "Заказ..." is incorrect. Definitely a franken, in my opinion.


Thank you schnurrp.

My gut feeling was right 

I did not bid, and it was sold at € 33,50


----------



## schnurrp

Karsten said:


> Thank you schnurrp.
> 
> My gut feeling was right
> 
> I did not bid, and it was sold at € 33,50


You are welcome, Karsten.

Expensive parts!


----------



## emoscambio

kev80e said:


> Need your opinions on this please. I would love to add something like this to my collection. Is the lume on the hands correct , I thought I read it was longer and more pointed at the ends. If they are replacement hands but other wise it's OK then not too much of an issue . It just looks too shiny.


The Turin based seller is nice and honest. I've dealt with him many times. He has his own catalogue website, very well made

Desktop Version
http://online.pageflippdf.com/oubp/lpdy/

Mobile Version
http://online.pageflippdf.com/oubp/lpdy/mobile/index.html


----------



## dutchassasin

This Neptune sold for $230 on ebay. Case and caseback look original soviet, but does this oval shaped Neptune dial with 2427A movement belongs into that case? All versions i have seen have the 2416B movement inside. Also note the stump at the end of the minute hand. The watch looks very nice and if the price was lower i had purchased it myself.


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> This Neptune sold for $230 on ebay. Case and caseback look original soviet, but does this oval shaped Neptune dial with 2427A movement belongs into that case? All versions i have seen have the 2416B movement inside. Also note the stump at the end of the minute hand. The watch looks very nice and if the price was lower i had purchased it myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> It may be a replacement, comrade, or just the bridge bearing the stamp was replaced (if that is possible). You would have to look under the dial to see if there is an actual 2427 mechanism there (minus its day mechanism of course) which was quite different from the 2416. Since the 2427 was considered a failure and discontinued perhaps there was an attempt to use up the parts. I wouldn't mind having that watch and I believe there's a good chance it is authentic but I would never pay that much for a mystery watch.


----------



## willjackson

Hello Friends!

I want to spend way too much on my first Kirovskie saucepan, but I want to check a few things if you guys got a minute?

Vintage Big Soviet Military Commander Timepiece Chk 6 Saucepan Kirovskie USSR | eBay

The seller has a good rep here on WUS, but I can't find any images that match this one... Could I get some images? and opinions? Thanks!


----------



## willjackson

willjackson said:


> Hello Friends!
> 
> I want to spend way too much on my first Kirovskie saucepan, but I want to check a few things if you guys got a minute?
> 
> Vintage Big Soviet Military Commander Timepiece Chk 6 Saucepan Kirovskie USSR | eBay
> 
> The seller has a good rep here on WUS, but I can't find any images that match this one... Could I get some images? and opinions? Thanks!


I found this image, but the dial is dirty and I cant make it put clearly...


----------



## willjackson

willjackson said:


> I found this image, but the dial is dirty and I cant make it put clearly...


and I found this link from last December... My confidence is growing 

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-xmas-present-type-1-kirovskie-1940-a-1311466.html


----------



## willjackson

willjackson said:


> and I found this link from last December... My confidence is growing
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-xmas-present-type-1-kirovskie-1940-a-1311466.html


But the dial looks very clean and I see the small circles mentioned in the above link... The hour hand on the ebay listing is different than Polmax's early gift? But this one was created much later than Polmax's (if serial numbers are to be believed). <Stream of thought of a new Russian collector  >


----------



## willjackson

willjackson said:


> But the dial looks very clean and I see the small circles mentioned in the above link... The hour hand on the ebay listing is different than Polmax's early gift? But this one was created much later than Polmax's (if serial numbers are to be believed). <Stream of thought of a new Russian collector  >


Closure: I didn't get the saucepan. The clean dial and price ticket slowed me up. I noticed it didn't get purchased, I'm still watching and doing my research. I want my first Kirovskie to be perfect, not like my first Komandirskie!!


----------



## Lokifish

Red second hand and triangle on dial. Haven't seen this before. Thoughts?


----------



## kev80e

Would like to add an older one to my collection but know nothing ! Seen this would like your opinions please comrades.















I believe the 1-52 means first quarter of 1952 .


----------



## mroatman

Lokifish said:


> Red second hand and triangle on dial. Haven't seen this before. Thoughts?


Oooo, I would really like to know as well. My knee-jerk says fake, but the dial is flawless and the printing of the triangle seems to match very well with the printing of the Луч logo. Can I ask where you found this? 
_Edit: Never mind, found it._

All of mine with this dial design have gold hands, but I'm guessing you already knew that....


----------



## mroatman

But I do believe a red seconds hand was a genuine variation on some models of Luch 2209. See these photos of mine from a recent thread:

















Still never seen that triangle. I'm intrigued!


----------



## mroatman

Check this out: LUCH 2209 Ultra Slim Vintage Soviet Russian Mechanical Wristwatch RARE | eBay

Two examples can't be a mistake, so I think it's legit. Still, I think the red seconds hand is replaced (though I have no basis for this) and I have no idea what the triangle could represent.


----------



## Lokifish

mroatman said:


> Check this out: LUCH 2209 Ultra Slim Vintage Soviet Russian Mechanical Wristwatch RARE | eBay
> 
> Two examples can't be a mistake, so I think it's legit. Still, I think the red seconds hand is replaced (though I have no basis for this) and I have no idea what the triangle could represent.


I never found it in any of the catalogs, but many are fairly low res so might have missed it. It's not in the books either.

Came across another odd one. I've seen printed, stamped with printed anchor, but stamped with grooves? Even if it's franken, it has the sexiest dial I have ever seen on a 'dirskie. The wife was outbid at the last couple seconds on the Luch I posted, so my gift watch is still up in the air. But I need another 33 like I need another hole in my head, especially at the asking price.


----------



## mroatman

Lokifish said:


> The wife was outbid at the last couple seconds on the Luch I posted, so my gift watch is still up in the air.


So the Luch with a triangle was on eBay? What was the final selling price?


----------



## Lokifish

$73 + 3.50 shipping My wife is not an auction person so she was $1.00 bumping it for about two hours apparently.


----------



## mroatman

Ugghhhh, can't believe I missed that one. Seems a fair price for such a rarity in such good condition.


----------



## dutchassasin

The grooves submarine is legit, its quite a rare one. Amil has one for sale in a different case. 391118067668
Its also present in Michele's collection: http://russianwatches.altervista.org


----------



## sq100

Here's mine, the green one looks even better


----------



## Lokifish

Thanks gents. Guess I missed it when going through Michele's collection, it was a bit late when I did.

(Ended up buying the one amil had. Much better condition than the other one, and I didn't have a 34x in my collection)


----------



## schnurrp

Lokifish said:


> Red second hand and triangle on dial. Haven't seen this before. Thoughts?


On some soviet watches red second hands are authentic and are so pictured in the various catalogs, however, some of the most famous (infamous?) frankenmeisters are in the habit of substituting a red second hand in order to draw attention to their questionable offerings, I guess. If you go through the catalogs you will see that the red second hand is definitely less commonly authentic than found on ebay but it appears that the Roman numeral Luch is found in the catalog with a red second hand:









In general, for me, a red second hand is a red flag.


----------



## mroatman

Wonderful, schnurrp, thank you for the evidential proof! For a long time, I've had a hunch about the red seconds hand on the tall roman numeral Luch (but not the short roman numeral dial), yet I failed to find this model in any catalog. As usual, you are a super sleuth with the reference materials :-!

Come to think of it, I can only recall two other 2209s with authentic red seconds hands, though I'm sure there are more...









Any idea about the triangle on the dial?


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Check this out: LUCH 2209 Ultra Slim Vintage Soviet Russian Mechanical Wristwatch RARE | eBay
> 
> Two examples can't be a mistake, so I think it's legit. Still, I think the red seconds hand is replaced (though I have no basis for this) and I have no idea what the triangle could represent.


When I see a red second hand on a soviet watch I see a red flag. If you look at the catalogs you will realize how rare the red second hand is compared to what's found on ebay. I believe red second hands are a way for some frankenmeisters to draw attention to their questionable offerings. As it turns out, though, the Roman numeral Luch 2209 is shown in the catalog with a red second hand:









I don't know about the triangle dial Luch but I agree the existence of two such examples lessens the chance of it being a fake.


----------



## schnurrp

Sorry about the double post on the same subject. I'm in and out today and must be losing my mind!


----------



## mroatman

Haha, I don't mind, it's double the proof I wanted!

Can you provide a link to the full catalog where you found that Luch with roman numerals and the red seconds hand? I love that dial design and I've searched for that catalog but came up empty handed.


----------



## schnurrp

Raketa is the king of red second hands. In the 1967 catalog of the 83 watches pictured 15 were shown with a red second hand.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Haha, I don't mind, it's double the proof I wanted!
> 
> Can you provide a link to the full catalog where you found that Luch with roman numerals and the red seconds hand? I love that dial design and I've searched for that catalog but came up empty handed.


It's a favorite of mine, too. Look here: https://plus.google.com/photos/113098239036073221216/albums/5510187106875721505?banner=pwa

There are several more in this catalog starting on page 58 (picture 40 of 60): https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5205885976380029298&oid=113098239036073221216

Also this: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...6123526399847304306&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## mroatman

Paul, the Catelog King!!

Saved for future reference. Many thanks.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

Any thoughts on this, which I picked up on eBay last night? I don't know the first thing but these, so I bid as though it were a parts watch, so don't spare my feelings! Seller said it is working.


----------



## schnurrp

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Any thoughts on this, which I picked up on eBay last night? I don't know the first thing but these, so I bid as though it were a parts watch, so don't spare my feelings! Seller said it is working.


A similar one from '96 catalog. Dial color doesn't seem to match but that just may be the photography.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5519674659641008242&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## kev80e

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Any thoughts on this, which I picked up on eBay last night? I don't know the first thing but these, so I bid as though it were a parts watch, so don't spare my feelings! Seller said it is working.


Just my very uninformed opinion but the symbol above the date looks a little off in that not very crisp. Could be and probably am wrong but could be a fake dial. Having said that if the price was good not a real problem, still a 3133 after all that works. Watching with interest to see what the experts say.


----------



## Karsten

WTYPMAHCKNE Poljot 2614 ?

I have seen this "Sturmanskie"

Poljot 2614 movement (looks genuine compared with picture on netgrafik)

Cannot find any pictures of the watch.
It measures 43 mm without crown.

It seems to be newly produced, and if the movement is genuine, i can
live with the casing possibly is made somewhere far east for the price asked.

Any ideas where this watch has been produced and sold?

Have checked both Juri Levenberg and Julian Kampmann, but cannot find a similar one.

If it is of dubius orgin i will better let i pass, even at $ 69.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> Just my very uninformed opinion but the symbol above the date looks a little off in that not very crisp. Could be and probably am wrong but could be a fake dial. Having said that if the price was good not a real problem, still a 3133 after all that works. Watching with interest to see what the experts say.


Actually that's a good sign in my opinion. The reproductions are usually quite crisp.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Actually that's a good sign in my opinion. The reproductions are usually quite crisp.


Thanks Schnurrp , this is a great thread to learn on. Looking again the sub dials have the circular grooves , are these normally present on the fake ones ? Just be nice to know .


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> Thanks Schnurrp , this is a great thread to learn on. Looking again the sub dials have the circular grooves , are these normally present on the fake ones ? Just be nice to know .


Don't appear to be on this fake presented in Polmax's thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=536476

Also the lume is white instead of the light green often seen on fakes and it matches the hands.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> Don't appear to be on this fake presented in Polmax's thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=536476
> 
> Also the lume is white instead of the light green often seen on fakes and it matches the hands.


Thanks a lot always good to get more information . I see the sub dials are also not sunken on the fake either.


----------



## Karsten

Karsten said:


> WTYPMAHCKNE Poljot 2614 ?
> 
> I have seen this "Sturmanskie"
> 
> Poljot 2614 movement (looks genuine compared with picture on netgrafik)
> 
> Cannot find any pictures of the watch.
> It measures 43 mm without crown.
> 
> It seems to be newly produced, and if the movement is genuine, i can
> live with the casing possibly is made somewhere far east for the price asked.
> 
> Any ideas where this watch has been produced and sold?
> 
> Have checked both Juri Levenberg and Julian Kampmann, but cannot find a similar one.
> 
> If it is of dubius orgin i will better let i pass, even at $ 69.


No inputs?


----------



## mroatman

I have bought from this seller in the past and always had a pleasant experience. Beyond that, I cannot offer any help on this watch, sorry. Clearly a knockoff of the original Sturmanskie from the '50s, but if you don't mind reproductions and the price seems appropriate, I'm sure it will tell the time just fine


----------



## mroatman

Also, you could always just ask the seller. He may not know anything, but it's worth a shot.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

schnurrp said:


> Actually that's a good sign in my opinion. The reproductions are usually quite crisp.


Thanks, Schnurrp & Kev80e. Seller says "1990s," so Paul's catalog photo fits the time frame, at least. The price was $101 USD + 5 USD shipping, so if it just operates as the seller says, I think I'm good. Even if the dial isn't legit, I can wait until a good one comes along. This was just one of those things you find at the last second, so you take a chance. Your input is very much appreciated, and I'll post some of my own photos when it comes in. 
I've had my eye out for a chrono for a while, and was glad to find this - luck of the Irish, you know, as I happen to be home in Dublin at the moment. 
Cheers,
-Mike


----------



## kev80e

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Thanks, Schnurrp & Kev80e. Seller says "1990s," so Paul's catalog photo fits the time frame, at least. The price was $101 USD + 5 USD shipping, so if it just operates as the seller says, I think I'm good. Even if the dial isn't legit, I can wait until a good one comes along. This was just one of those things you find at the last second, so you take a chance. Your input is very much appreciated, and I'll post some of my own photos when it comes in.
> I've had my eye out for a chrono for a while, and was glad to find this - luck of the Irish, you know, as I happen to be home in Dublin at the moment.
> Cheers,
> -Mike


I'm sure Schnurrp is right and its original. Be warned though these 3133 are addictive. Enjoy it , good price congratulations.


----------



## schnurrp

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Thanks, Schnurrp & Kev80e. Seller says "1990s," so Paul's catalog photo fits the time frame, at least. The price was $101 USD + 5 USD shipping, so if it just operates as the seller says, I think I'm good. Even if the dial isn't legit, I can wait until a good one comes along. This was just one of those things you find at the last second, so you take a chance. Your input is very much appreciated, and I'll post some of my own photos when it comes in.
> I've had my eye out for a chrono for a while, and was glad to find this - luck of the Irish, you know, as I happen to be home in Dublin at the moment.
> Cheers,
> -Mike


I think you bought a good one, comrade, and at a good price, too. I have nothing against asking sellers about their wares but I always take such replies with a grain of salt. It's not that I'm afraid of being cheated it's just that many sellers, in my experience, are not collectors and their knowledge can be lacking. You risk being misled in both directions.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I have nothing against asking sellers about their wares but I always take such replies with a grain of salt. It's not that I'm afraid of being cheated it's just that many sellers, in my experience, are not collectors and their knowledge can be lacking. You risk being misled in both directions.


I should have quoted in my response, as I was replying to Karsten's query rather than Rusty's. Since it went to the next page, I realize it was ambiguous to whom I was referring.

I agree, asking a seller whether a watch is genuine or not is grounds for some interesting replies! But since Karsten was just curious where the homage watch was produced and sold, I figure that seller has little reason to mislead. Either they know, or they don't. That is, of course, unless they claim it to be an original Sturmanskie :-d

But yes, I take most everything in this hobby with a hefty dose of that there NaCl ;-)


----------



## Karsten

mroatman said:


> Also, you could always just ask the seller. He may not know anything, but it's worth a shot.


Right you are, i asked the seller, and quickly answered:

"Hi,
This is handmade from Ukraina (I do not know manufactories why do it). I did not take boxes and papers (adds cost the watch). Glass (mineral), case , hand is new. Movement used - serviced ( poljot 2609 from 1 MCzZ)"

I am a bit astonished, that they are taking the effort of servicing a used moment, and putting it in a new (generic?) casing.

My conclusion is this is a nice looking watch in a contemporary size (43 mm) for a daily beater with some quirkiness.
Hope the auction price will keep low under $ 90.

Thanks for inputs from all.


----------



## mroatman

Karsten said:


> Hope the auction price will keep low under $ 90.


My experience with this seller is that I'm usually one of the only bidders. That doesn't mean anything for your auction necessarily, but you might just score a deal. Good luck


----------



## willjackson

Hello friends,

I am still on the search for an excellent saucepan! I found this one and I need some help please... your opinions are greatly needed!


----------



## dutchassasin

Im not an expert in these kind of watches but the dial is suspicious.


----------



## Ham2

willjackson said:


> Hello friends, I am still on the search for an excellent saucepan! I found this one and I need some help please... your opinions are greatly needed!


That is a fake dial


----------



## schnurrp

Ham2 said:


> That is a fake dial


Yes, and even if it wasn't the appearance of a lumed dial with non-lumed hands is always incorrect, in my opinion.


----------



## willjackson

Ham2 said:


> That is a fake dial





> Im not an expert in these kind of watches but the dial is suspicious


thanks friends! I am a sucker for a beautiful face, or dial in this case!

what is the giveaway? is it the clean look?


----------



## willjackson

schnurrp said:


> Yes, and even if it wasn't the appearance of a lumed dial with non-lumed hands is always incorrect, in my opinion.


i suspected the hands were off! thanks for that fact!!!


----------



## mroatman

Another Type-1 for y'all today. I'm new to these, so I need a pair of more discriminating eyes. Here's what I notice:

- The dial looks good to me. I think it's original. There is no number stamped below the midpoint, but according to Geoff, numbers were only stamped into military-issue watches. But the lume looks VERY good&#8230;maybe too good?
- The hour and minute hands, while correct in style, seem flawless, which is a red flag. Again, are they too good?
- I've seen sub-second hand with and without lume. Maybe this is replaced because this one doesn't have lume, but it's minor and doesn't bother me.
- The crown is probably replaced.
- The movement is probably replaced(?). I don't see any indication of date or place of manufacture...
- The case is probably incorrect as there seems to be something like a broken mainspring used to secure it. Unless that is the "movement holder" that was used with these watches? I haven't seen that before.

Like I say, I'm new to these and would like to use this one as a learning experience. The price is very good (another red flag) so if it's worth it I could just pay for the dial, provided that's correct.

I also asked Comrade Selles for his input, but I thought I could learn more by asking multiple sources. I'm using this as an educational tool more than anything, so the more you can tell me, the better.

Thanks for your help!


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> Another Type-1 for y'all today. I'm new to these, so I need a pair of more discriminating eyes. Here's what I notice:
> 
> - The dial looks good to me. I think it&#146;s original. There is no number stamped below the midpoint, but according to Geoff, numbers were only stamped into military-issue watches. But the lume looks VERY good&#133;maybe too good?
> - The hour and minute hands, while correct in style, seem flawless, which is a red flag. Again, are they too good?
> - I&#146;ve seen sub-second hand with and without lume. Maybe this is replaced because this one doesn&#146;t have lume, but it&#146;s minor and doesn&#146;t bother me.
> - The crown is probably replaced.
> - The movement is probably replaced(?). I don&#146;t see any indication of date or place of manufacture...
> - The case is probably incorrect as there seems to be something like a broken mainspring used to secure it. Unless that is the &#147;movement holder&#148; that was used with these watches? I haven&#146;t seen that before.
> 
> Like I say, I'm new to these and would like to use this one as a learning experience. The price is very good (another red flag) so if it's worth it I could just pay for the dial, provided that's correct.
> 
> I also asked Comrade Selles for his input, but I thought I could learn more by asking multiple sources. I'm using this as an educational tool more than anything, so the more you can tell me, the better.
> 
> Thanks for your help!


First thing, the lume on the dial and the one on the hands are really different in color and aspect, and thus applied at different times. i assume that the one on the hands is brand new, while the one on the dial is older. I would not assume that the one on the dial is original either, yet older.

Then, a lume dot on the the tiny circular end of the second hand would not make a lot of sense, given the small size of the dot and the small diameter of the small sub-dial. It would be barely visible in full obscurity, and even then would not deliver a usable reading.

The blued steel hands look flawless because the material is very good and does not easily corrode. They are original, I would say.

The movement, while being shot in a multitude of angles, is not photographed in such an angle that would allow to see its finish. Usually, a plain straight picture in full light shows stripes, or at least the grain or coarseness or even the shade of the metal, and lets one conclude about the movement bridges being original or not: the point is to recognize whether or not the bridge is original to the rest of the movement. This is the most likely part to be replaced.

I advise you to immediately PM our young polish specialist and friend PMWAS, who has been around for a long time with such oldies in spite of his age, and can assess with authority other finer details, like the bearing of the balance and so on, and will be able to date, brand and judge the entire watch.


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> First thing, the lume on the dial and the one on the hands are really different in color and aspect, and thus applied at different times. i assume that the one on the hands is brand new, while the one on the dial is older. I would not assume that the one on the dial is original either, yet older.
> Then, a lume dot on the the tiny circular end of the second hand would not make a lot of sense, given the small size of the dot and the small diameter of the small sub-dial. It would be barely visible in full obscurity, and even then would not deliver a usable reading.
> The blued steel hands look flawless because the material is very good and does not easily corrode. They are original, I would say.
> The movement, while being shot in a multitude of angles, is not photographed in such an angle that would allow to see its finish. Usually, a plain straight picture in full light shows stripes, or at least the grain or coarseness or even the shade of the metal, and lets one conclude about the movement bridges being original or not: the point is to recognize whether or not the bridge is original to the rest of the movement. This is the most likely part to be replaced.
> I advise you to immediately PM our young polish specialist and friend PMWAS, who has been around for a long time with such oldies in spite of his age, and can assess with authority other finer details, like the bearing of the balance and so on, and will be able to date, brand and judge the entire watch.


Thank you for such a helpful response, emoscambio. I have discussed this one with Hans, so here are his thoughts along with some of my own.

We are all in agreement that neither dial lume nor hand lume is original, though both do seem to be well done, even if they don't match in color.

I don't see any lume dot on the second hand on this watch, so I'm not sure what you're referring to there.

The movement is the tricky part. Hans thinks it is legitimate -- one of those models hastily assembled during the war, hence the lack of a factory logo. There are geneva stripes on the bridge, though such decorations seem suspiciously absent from any other parts of the movement. To me, it looks very fishy -- though I trust Hans' skilled eyes over mine any day.

The price is quite decent ($130) and the watch is reserved in my name, so at the moment there is no competition. I suppose the question is: assuming the movement is replaced, is it worth the price for the dial, hands, and case? Hans has encouraged me to buy with the understanding that the rarest parts of this watch (dial/hands/case) are original, and another authentic movement can always be sourced later. And if it turns out that this is an original movement, then that's just a bonus.

I will take your advice and send a message to PMWAS, thank you for the suggestion. And thank you for your thoughts! I was beginning to think nobody would take a stab at this one


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> Thank you for such a helpful response, emoscambio. I have discussed this one with Hans, so here are his thoughts along with some of my own.I don't see any lume dot on the second hand on this watch, so I'm not sure what you're referring to there.


My statement



emoscambio said:


> Then, a lume dot on the the tiny circular end of the second hand would not make a lot of sense, given the small size of the dot and the small diameter of the small sub-dial. It would be barely visible in full obscurity, and even then would not deliver a usable reading.


was referring to your statement :



mroatman said:


> - I&#146;ve seen sub-second hand with and without lume. Maybe this is replaced because this one doesn&#146;t have lume, but it&#146;s minor and doesn&#146;t bother me.


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> My statement was referring to your statement


Oh, I believe a lumed sub-second hand is genuine. They're just hard to find. And it's not merely a dot, but the entire second hand that's lumed. Here are some examples:


----------



## antarticus

How authentic is this komandirskie. Would appreciate the opinion of more informed comrades as I already have enough frankensteins, even though I love them dearly . And what does SU mean. The vendor says i stands for Soviet Union. Surely not?


----------



## pmwas

mroatman said:


> Another Type-1 for y'all today. I'm new to these, so I need a pair of more discriminating eyes. Here's what I notice:
> 
> - The dial looks good to me. I think it's original. There is no number stamped below the midpoint, but according to Geoff, numbers were only stamped into military-issue watches. But the lume looks VERY good&#8230;maybe too good?
> - The hour and minute hands, while correct in style, seem flawless, which is a red flag. Again, are they too good?
> - I've seen sub-second hand with and without lume. Maybe this is replaced because this one doesn't have lume, but it's minor and doesn't bother me.
> - The crown is probably replaced.
> - The movement is probably replaced(?). I don't see any indication of date or place of manufacture...
> - The case is probably incorrect as there seems to be something like a broken mainspring used to secure it. Unless that is the "movement holder" that was used with these watches? I haven't seen that before.
> 
> Like I say, I'm new to these and would like to use this one as a learning experience. The price is very good (another red flag) so if it's worth it I could just pay for the dial, provided that's correct.
> 
> I also asked Comrade Selles for his input, but I thought I could learn more by asking multiple sources. I'm using this as an educational tool more than anything, so the more you can tell me, the better.
> 
> Thanks for your help!
> 
> View attachment 3996098
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996162
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996154
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996146
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996138
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996130
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996122
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996114
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996106
> 
> 
> View attachment 3996170


This watch is not fully original. the second hand looks replaced, but that's not a big deal. the hand and dial have been relumed or even 'lumed', as some of these dials never had lume on them. The movement is made of two movements. Telling by the pallet bridge (two screws) it's a 1GChZ type 1 with early Chistopol (no signatures) barrel bridge. The ratchet is typical for 2ChZ or ChChZ movements, and was used in Zlatoust as well but much, much later (after circa 1955). The construction of the setting mechanism could confirm it's a 1GChZ movement...
The case looks fine. The movements were often a bit loose in the case, so perhaps that's why someone used the ring. Or maybe the replaced bridge is a bit different.
So this watch could possibly be a relumed original 1GChZ with a replaced barrel bridge. But obviously, you can never know for sure...
The lack of date on the plates is due to the replaced bridge, telling by the black regulator ans 'American style' jewel setting on the balnce cock, this should be late 1930s.


----------



## MattBrace

All looks ok to me and yes the SU on the movement is correct (soviet union)

Regards



antarticus said:


> How authentic is this komandirskie. Would appreciate the opinion of more informed comrades as I already have enough frankensteins, even though I love them dearly . And what does SU mean. The vendor says i stands for Soviet Union. Surely not?


----------



## dutchassasin

I think it has a wrong bezel, take a look at NHT's example


----------



## mroatman

pmwas said:


> This watch is not fully original. the second hand looks replaced, but that's not a big deal. the hand and dial have been relumed or even 'lumed', as some of these dials never had lume on them. The movement is made of two movements. Telling by the pallet bridge (two screws) it's a 1GChZ type 1 with early Chistopol (no signatures) barrel bridge. The ratchet is typical for 2ChZ or ChChZ movements, and was used in Zlatoust as well but much, much later (after circa 1955). The construction of the setting mechanism could confirm it's a 1GChZ movement...
> The case looks fine. The movements were often a bit loose in the case, so perhaps that's why someone used the ring. Or maybe the replaced bridge is a bit different.
> So this watch could possibly be a relumed original 1GChZ with a replaced barrel bridge. But obviously, you can never know for sure...
> The lack of date on the plates is due to the replaced bridge, telling by the black regulator ans 'American style' jewel setting on the balnce cock, this should be late 1930s.


Leave it to pmwas to put the **EXPERT** in "Q&A Expertise thread" -- many thanks, my friend! :-!

And for anyone curious, after talking the seller into lowering the price further, I decided to buy it. Thread forthcoming...


----------



## antarticus

Thanks for opinion MattBrace, though I am surprised that SU is Soviet Union, I would have thought that it would have been something like CC, from CCCP. It's good to know the vendor is honest though. Reassuring !

Dutchassasin, I have seen that bevel on another example of this watch in a french collection, but the bevel on the watchI posted is the same as the one in the catalogue at the link below. It is great to see the silver second hand on the example you showed , as the catalogue and french one was black. One of my concerns was the second hand so that helps. The other concern was the lume on the dial didn't seem to match the hands but I think that might be the lighting in the photo. So thanks for posting that example.https://plus.google.com/app/basic/ph...platform%253D1

And glad you got that watch mroatman, it's an absolute beauty.  Am in awe of the knowledge on this site, people like pmwas are scary good.


----------



## mroatman

antarticus said:


> Thanks for opinion MattBrace, though I am surprised that SU is Soviet Union, I would have thought that it would have been something like CC, from CCCP. It's good to know the vendor is honest though. Reassuring !


You might find this screen shot of interest. It comes from this very helpful page from an even more helpful website. Worth a bookmark, if you ask me.











antarticus said:


> And glad you got that watch mroatman, it's an absolute beauty.  Am in awe of the knowledge on this site, people like pmwas are scary good.


Thanks, antarticus. Scary good indeed!


----------



## MattBrace

I believe that both bezels can be found on this type of Dirskie.

Regards


----------



## dutchassasin

MattBrace said:


> I believe that both bezels can be found on this type of Dirskie. Regards


Im sorry if i unintentionally gave out false information, i was under the impression only 1 bezel combination was correct as both Michele & NHT's sport this bezel in combination with the white dial.


----------



## antarticus

No apologies necessary here dutchassasin. I appreciated you posting that photo from NHT as it showed the silver second hand which made me feel better about the watch I was looking at. A big thank you for your help comrade.


----------



## schnurrp

From '90 catalog: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5893332630689003602&oid=113098239036073221216

But right next to it this one: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5893332631589880594&oid=113098239036073221216

And further on this one: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5893328781345164610&oid=113098239036073221216

And this one: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5893723322853101922&oid=113098239036073221216

That bezel, which I associate primarily with the type 119 and Old Ministry amphibian was one of the most used Vostok bezels and over a long period of time. I would have a hard time rejecting a Vostok as authentic solely on the basis of the presence of this bezel.


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> Leave it to pmwas to put the *EXPERT* in "Q&A Expertise thread" -- many thanks, my friend! :-!
> 
> And for anyone curious, after talking the seller into lowering the price further, I decided to buy it. Thread forthcoming...


You see, I told you he is the one to ask 
Ok, there was some misunderstanding about said second hand. I thought that the displayed second hand was alleged to miss its lume, which is not possible.

Do you notice your minute hand having a slightly longer spike than the ones on the several pictures the original second hands? I remember some thread about the geometrical difference between original and non original cathedral-shaped hands. It might be worth searching it on the forum...


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> Do you notice your minute hand having a slightly longer spike than the ones on the several pictures the original second hands? I remember some thread about the geometrical difference between original and non original cathedral-shaped hands. It might be worth searching it on the forum...


Great, you just HAD to bring that up after I had already bought it!! :-d

To me, actually, the _hour_ hand is what looks funny. The way I see it, as compared to originals, it seems to be missing its tip -- presumably broken off. If the hands were not original, though, you'd think the watchmaker would choose ones that weren't broken...? Either way, it's a minor issue and I'm happy with the watch. These Type-1 models with the factory logo on the dial seem to be in high demand, and the price was fair even for a parts watch. That it has some good parts is just a bonus!

I can take many more detailed photos for further scrutiny once it's delivered in a few weeks.


----------



## mroatman

Also, here are the seller photos IN the case, yellowed crystal and all. I believe all the other pictures were outside.


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> Great, you just HAD to bring that up after I had already bought it!! :-d
> 
> To me, actually, the hour hand is what looks funny. The way I see it, as compared to originals, it seems to be missing its tip -- presumably broken off. If the hands were replaced hands, though, you'd think they'd choose ones that weren't broken...? Either way, it's minor and the price was fair even for a parts watch!
> 
> I can take many more detailed photos for further scrutiny once it's delivered in a few weeks.


Nothing wrong about having a working non fully original Kirov. There are tons of affordable original on the Russian market (MOLOTOK, AVITO). Yet they do NOT work!
Then, you cannot imagine the amount of Kirov on the Western market grossly provided with paper dials!

Or you can wear a Kirov working, repaired at some point (it does not have to be a recent repair by the way), yet not butchered. I prefer a nearly perfect working watch than a dead one 

I personally tend to avoid old lume as a precaution, or do not wear them if I have any doubts, but again this might just be paranoia.


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> Or you can wear a Kirov working, repaired at some point (it does not have to be a recent repair by the way), yet not butchered. I prefer a nearly perfect working watch than a dead one


Couldn't agree more. Of course an original, functioning piece in pristine condition at an affordable price would be preferable -- we can dream -- but all considered I'm pleased with my first Type-1 b-)


----------



## antarticus

-- but all considered I'm pleased with my first Type-1

Loving the word "first"


----------



## mroatman

antarticus said:


> -- but all considered I'm pleased with my first Type-1
> 
> Loving the word "first"


;-)


----------



## rcapiloto

Dear Comrade,

You can see that exact model on the Vostok catalog that Comrade schnurrp quoted:

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5893318442066404738&oid=113098239036073221216

So yes, a completely original Watch.

Regards,

RC



antarticus said:


> How authentic is this komandirskie. Would appreciate the opinion of more informed comrades as I already have enough frankensteins, even though I love them dearly . And what does SU mean. The vendor says i stands for Soviet Union. Surely not?


----------



## rcapiloto

However...

Looking more closely the picture on the catalog, the seconds hand looks black whereas on the watch you inquire about the seconds hand is silver...

RC



rcapiloto said:


> Dear Comrade,
> 
> You can see that exact model on the Vostok catalog that Comrade schnurrp quoted:
> 
> https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5893318442066404738&oid=113098239036073221216
> 
> So yes, a completely original Watch.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> RC


----------



## rcapiloto

Sorry, double post...


----------



## schnurrp

rcapiloto said:


> However...
> 
> Looking more closely the picture on the catalog, the seconds hand looks black whereas on the watch you inquire about the seconds hand is silver...
> 
> RC


I missed that one and the second hand does look black. I don't recall ever seeing a Vostok with a black second hand, maybe it's the lighting.


----------



## rcapiloto

schnurrp said:


> I missed that one and the second hand does look black. I don't recall ever seeing a Vostok with a black second hand, maybe it's the lighting.


Looking around at some other examples of Zakaz Komandirskies I tend to agree with your comment on the lighting... Look at the following two pictures of the same watch with the seconds hand at a different position: on one the hand is silver and 9 seconds later it looks black!!!



















Regards,

RC


----------



## willjackson

And this one on Michele's site has a silver seconds hand with no meatball...


----------



## elpadrone

Could someone confirm if the above is legit or fake. Comes from Singapore and with box and papers too apparently.
Thanks in advance


----------



## Lampoc

willjackson said:


> And this one on Michele's site has a silver seconds hand with no meatball...


The catalogue one has a meatball. Hard to see what colour the second is though:


----------



## heimdalg

Comrade elpadrone, this Pobeda is legit in my opinion


----------



## elpadrone

heimdalg said:


> Comrade elpadrone, this Pobeda is legit in my opinion


thanks comrade.
Couple of things that raised my suspicion was:
1. The number on the watch (462227) is different from the number on the papers (957827). I don't know if they were meant to match in the first place. I can't read Russian anyway.
2. No movement pics - the seller claims its NOS
3. Nobody else bid for it, even with a starting price of $0.99. I eventually won the auction for $0.99. So I was wondering if it was a fake that everyone else could spot, except me. But it could also be because, its not a sought-after watch. Just a plain Pobeda.

I'll post a movement pic after I recieve it.


----------



## willjackson

This one is a total fake, right people? The hands look painted and the dial looks suspicious... no movement shots either. Am I right?


----------



## schnurrp

elpadrone said:


> thanks comrade.
> Couple of things that raised my suspicion was:
> 1. The number on the watch (462227) is different from the number on the papers (957827). I don't know if they were meant to match in the first place. I can't read Russian anyway.
> 2. No movement pics - the seller claims its NOS
> 3. Nobody else bid for it, even with a starting price of $0.99. I eventually won the auction for $0.99. So I was wondering if it was a fake that everyone else could spot, except me. But it could also be because, its not a sought-after watch. Just a plain Pobeda.
> 
> I'll post a movement pic after I recieve it.


The papers may be fake but the watch appears to be completely authentic. I wouldn't be too concerned about whether it's NOS or not unless you specifically are looking for NOS. At that price, unless seller is charging an exorbitant price for shipping, you can't go wrong. What's the cost to you for the watch to be in your hands? That's what the watch costs. It's not useful to separate out "shipping", a marketing tool for sellers that can vary from "free" to $50 or more for the same shipping mode.


----------



## schnurrp

willjackson said:


> This one is a total fake, right people? The hands look painted and the dial looks suspicious... no movement shots either. Am I right?


Da!


----------



## emoscambio

schnurrp said:


> Da!


Stamped with a raw potato carved out with the teeth...


----------



## emoscambio

elpadrone said:


> thanks comrade. Couple of things that raised my suspicion was: 1. The number on the watch (462227) is different from the number on the papers (957827). I don't know if they were meant to match in the first place. I can't read Russian anyway. 2. No movement pics - the seller claims its NOS 3. Nobody else bid for it, even with a starting price of $0.99. I eventually won the auction for $0.99. So I was wondering if it was a fake that everyone else could spot, except me. But it could also be because, its not a sought-after watch. Just a plain Pobeda. I'll post a movement pic after I recieve it.


957827 is the model of the watch and not a serial number!!!


----------



## schnurrp

emoscambio said:


> Stamped with a raw potato carved out with the teeth...


Real soviet watchmaker use point of sickle on potato!


----------



## kev80e

Was wondering what you all make of this, the symbol looks like it is a sputnik commemorative watch and the movement date fits I think . Quite like it was thinking of adding to my collection. Thanks for your thoughts .


----------



## stadiou

Looks to be a 2809, not precision, with the usual stained dial. Probably OK though.


----------



## kev80e

stadiou said:


> Looks to be a 2809, not precision, with the usual stained dial. Probably OK though.


Thanks stadiou , just curious about the symbol curling off the k . Maybe more common than I thought just never seen it before.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> Thanks stadiou , just curious about the symbol curling off the k . Maybe more common than I thought just never seen it before.


Not that common. Could be a general commemorative for soviet space accomplishments. It was probably around when both sputnik and Gagarin missions were completed. Pre-dates the use of Boctok on Chistopol dials and movements. That's the 18 jewel (missing the four cap jewels of the 22 jewel model) 2809 without the precision balance adjuster, usually seen with the dial designation "Almaz". That is the correct case, I believe, and the whole watch looks authentic.

Here's my Wostok "wave" precision 2809:









View attachment 4074537


----------



## kev80e

Thanks again Schnurrp . If I can get it for a reasonable price I will. Yours looks great , would be nice to have something a little different. I now see the precision adjuster , something I have learnt from you ,cheers.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Was wondering what you all make of this, the symbol looks like it is a sputnik commemorative watch and the movement date fits I think . Quite like it was thinking of adding to my collection. Thanks for your thoughts .


The logo is authentic, but the case is what threw me on this one. I've only ever seen this case with Almaz-branded watches. But the movement seems correct as per Almaz and it does match the dial, so I'm going to add this one to my never-ending list of exceptions to bear in mind...

Here's one of my 'spaceship' Wostoks as well as one from Antonov's collection. One of the best logos around, I think!

















By the way, Paul, I completely agree that the latter dial is authentic. I forgot about another known Wostok dial configuration that also has printing on texture. Maybe it was more commonplace than I realized:









Let us know if you decide to spring for this one, Kev, and wrist shots if you do!!


----------



## heimdalg

A Almaz called Vostok. Legit in my opinion too. I like it.


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## kev80e

Thanks for all your help and wonderful photos . Love those textured dials .I have made an offer so just waiting to hear back . Will let you know if I get it .


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## schnurrp

That case goes with the 18 jewel movement, most often seen with "Almaz" dial but not always, evidently. Your rocket ship 2209 would be called "MIR" by old hands just like they called all Poljot 2209s "Vympel".


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## kev80e

Got it . Really pleased , just back from the pub and offer accepted. Thanks for your quick responses and help much appreciated.


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## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Got it . Really pleased , just back from the pub and offer accepted. Thanks for your quick responses and help much appreciated.


Cheers to that!


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## willjackson

Zdravstvuyte friends!

I am considering the following timepiece. Couple of things I don't like include the clean dial. I am told the glass has been replaced.
But it supposedly has the original strap. I was also told the axle pendulum was replaced... I am waiting for movement shots.

Should i bother with this one F10 or should I listen to my giblets and move on? Thanks (sorry if the photo is large!)


----------



## mroatman

willjackson said:


> Zdravstvuyte friends!
> 
> I am considering the following timepiece. Couple of things I don't like include the clean dial. I am told the glass has been replaced.
> But it supposedly has the original strap. I was also told the axle pendulum was replaced... I am waiting for movement shots.
> 
> Should i bother with this one F10 or should I listen to my giblets and move on? Thanks (sorry if the photo is large!)


I'm new to these but nothing looks obviously fake to me. Looks like a really nice watch, actually -- pending authenticity approval. I'm eager to hear what the experts say.


----------



## willjackson

mroatman said:


> I'm new to these but nothing looks obviously fake to me. Looks like a really nice watch, actually -- pending authenticity approval. I'm eager to hear what the experts say.


Thanks Oatman! Another thing that bothers me is the urgency the seller is imposing on me... Seller urgency always makes me sloooooow down ;|

But this one is really nice, still waiting on movement shots...


----------



## hseldon

Hi, I am new to the forum and recently purchased this Raketa 'Antimagnetic' watch from a Ukrainian seller on ebay. Can anyone give me any idea as to its authenticity. Do you reckon it is geniuine or a franken? I have opened the back and it has a 2610 movement marked with 'SU' and appears to have its antimagnetic shield intact.

Here are some pictures.


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## mroatman

hseldon said:


> Hi, I am new to the forum and recently purchased this Raketa 'Antimagnetic' watch from a Ukrainian seller on ebay. Can anyone give me any idea as to its authenticity. Do you reckon it is geniuine or a franken? I have opened the back and it has a 2610 movement marked with 'SU' and appears to have its antimagnetic shield intact.


I question the second hand because it's not one I'm familiar with on Raketas, but I don't know anything about this dial so it may well be original. The other hands seem to match the dial well so I'd wager they're authentic. I absolutely love the blue sunburst, very nice! It looks like a great watch, enjoy it :-!


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## hseldon

Thanks for replying. Hi!
The dial colour is gorgeous, isn't it. Looks even better for real! My limited research (google image search) shows these with the same second hand (I think) but sometimes there is a bit more of a point at the end of the minute hand. I was thinking the hands look very clean and shiny compared to the dial which is clearly aged. Though the seller did say all his watches are cleaned, oiled and serviced. I think the glass (plastic) front is new as it is flawless.

Something else I have noticed is the embossed grill on the backplate under where it says Antimagnetic usually has a number stamped on it too, though mine doesn't. Still, I know next to nothing about these things so any information regarding authenticity and history of the model would be gratefully received.

Nonetheless, I am enjoying it very much. It is my first soviet watch, now I've had it long enough to know it works well I am waiting on a better strap to complement the colour on the dial...


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## mroatman

hseldon said:


> Thanks for replying. Hi!
> The dial colour is gorgeous, isn't it. Looks even better for real! My limited research (google image search) shows these with the same second hand (I think) but sometimes there is a bit more of a point at the end of the minute hand. I was thinking the hands look very clean and shiny compared to the dial which is clearly aged. Though the seller did say all his watches are cleaned, oiled and serviced. I think the glass (plastic) front is new as it is flawless.
> 
> Something else I have noticed is the embossed grill on the backplate under where it says Antimagnetic usually has a number stamped on it too, though mine doesn't. Still, I know next to nothing about these things so any information regarding authenticity and history of the model would be gratefully received.
> 
> Nonetheless, I am enjoying it very much. It is my first soviet watch, now I've had it long enough to know it works well I am waiting on a better strap to complement the colour on the dial...


Hi to you too!! And welcome to the forums b-)

It seems like you know what you're looking for and have a good eye. A mismatch between the condition of the dial and hands can be a red flag, but I would say yours looks good to my eye. I'll wait for the real experts to chime in, though ;-)

One Raketa second hand variation I'm used to seeing looks more like the one below. It has a larger base and a taper to the tip. Your second hand looks very thin throughout (though it's a little difficult to see from the photo). But as I said, I'm not familiar with this dial, so it could be that yours is authentic and the one below is incorrect. I'm only going based on my limited knowledge of Raketas from the 1960s and 1970s.









You might enjoy looking through some old Raketa catalogs to see if you can find your watch. This is one good method of identifying authentic cases, dials, crowns, and hands. You can find many old catalogs here.

Again, a beautiful watch with such a lovely dial. Nice catch


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## schnurrp

Hands are correct, in my opinion. From '83 catalog:









The Raketa 2610 watch has a second anti-magnetic shield behind the dial and it is thought that the longer cannon pinion and hour wheel to clear this shield is the only difference between the 2610 and the 2609 movements.


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## hseldon

Thank you! I have been looking for links to old catalogues but haven't been able to find it so far - it was in the link you provided! (The brown book 'Soviet Wrist Watches 1983? - link: https://goo.gl/mvwzoD) It is hard to tell but it looks as though the one in the catalogue has the thin second hand (which mine has, you are correct) like the one beneath it clearly has. Most of the Raketas have the tapered one like in your picture but there are some in the book which have a thin one. I'm pretty sure mine is one of them.

Thanks a lot for your help!


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## hseldon

Thank you very much for this. I had been searching for catalogues from the 1980s to try and find this watch in vain, until now. I think that second hand is slim throughout, like my one.


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## schnurrp

hseldon said:


> Thank you very much for this. I had been searching for catalogues from the 1980s to try and find this watch in vain, until now. I think that second hand is slim throughout, like my one.


Yes, yours is correct. Here are all the catalogs: https://plus.google.com/photos/113098239036073221216/albums?banner=pwa


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## willjackson

I received a movement shot of the '39 Kiro I was considering...



















After seeing the movement (and getting a little help from a friend), I pulled the trigger and spent somewhat more than I wanted, but I think it's gorgeous 
I will absolutely post some catwalk pix when it arrives.


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## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Hands are correct, in my opinion. From '83 catalog:
> 
> The Raketa 2610 watch has a second anti-magnetic shield behind the dial and it is thought that the longer cannon pinion and hour wheel to clear this shield is the only difference between the 2610 and the 2609 movements.


Thanks for this, schnurrp. I picked that image somewhat arbitrarily as an example of the second hand I was talking about, so it's great that the catalog happens to have them both there, practically next to each other! Makes for easy comparison.

Hseldon, I don't know much about '80s watches and I've (obviously) never seen that ultra-fine Raketa second hand before, but I have to say I like it better than the "usual" Raketa variety. I think it's a little more unique and interesting than the typical tapered second hand. Once again, congratulations on a great watch!


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## mroatman

willjackson said:


> I received a movement shot of the '39 Kiro I was considering...
> After seeing the movement (and getting a little help from a friend), I pulled the trigger and spent somewhat more than I wanted, but I think it's gorgeous
> I will absolutely post some catwalk pix when it arrives.


What an incredible watch. I'm quite envious. Well done, Will. And that handmade strap, while perhaps a little skinny for my taste, makes it extra special. I look forward to a full review upon arrival!

Where did you find this one?


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## elpadrone

schnurrp said:


> The papers may be fake but the watch appears to be completely authentic. I wouldn't be too concerned about whether it's NOS or not unless you specifically are looking for NOS. At that price, unless seller is charging an exorbitant price for shipping, you can't go wrong. What's the cost to you for the watch to be in your hands? That's what the watch costs. It's not useful to separate out "shipping", a marketing tool for sellers that can vary from "free" to $50 or more for the same shipping mode.





emoscambio said:


> 957827 is the model of the watch and not a serial number!!!


Thanks comrades
@schnurrp: Auction was won at $0.99 and the shipping was a reasonable $9.99. For that price I can't even get a Mumbai Special.
Plus I love the old-school looks of the dial and the very clean look of this watch.

@emoscambio - thanks for clarifying my confusion.


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## willjackson

mroatman said:


> What an incredible watch. I'm quite envious. Well done, Will. And that handmade strap, while perhaps a little skinny for my taste, makes it extra special. I look forward to a full review upon arrival!
> 
> Where did you find this one?


Etsy! I have found a couple of nice, honest sellers there.


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## Luis965

willjackson said:


> I received a movement shot of the '39 Kiro I was considering...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After seeing the movement (and getting a little help from a friend), I pulled the trigger and spent somewhat more than I wanted, but I think it's gorgeous
> I will absolutely post some catwalk pix when it arrives.


Congrats.
It is an amazing piece!


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## dj898

I'm fairly sure this is not genuine but for $34 what not I said to myself. 

Shturmanskie Vintage Soviet Air Force Pilot Watch | Bay

what's your opinions comrades?


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## mroatman

dj898 said:


> I'm fairly sure this is not genuine but for $34 what not I said to myself.
> 
> Shturmanskie Vintage Soviet Air Force Pilot Watch | Bay
> 
> what's your opinions comrades?


Yes, it's fake. To my knowledge, genuine "Gagarin" Sturmanskies only came in two varieties, both with central/sweep seconds. The dials were lumed and the movements from 1MWF. The dial on this watch seems to have been printed over something else (see thing indented circled going through the numbers?) and the hands, if truly lumed, wouldn't be appropriate for this non-lumed dial. The case should have sloped lugs and the crown.....well, the crown is wrong, too.

I'm afraid there isn't a single element on this watch that's genuine  But if you like it, I'm sure it'll tell the time ;-)


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## mroatman

You can compare to these, both of which I believe are genuine:


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## dutchassasin

I agree with mroatman, It looks cool and for that price it will tell the time just fine. Appears to have a Zim movement, case and crown so thats Russian after all.


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## mroatman

Yes but it also fuels the franken industry which encourages more of these false reproductions and makes genuine examples harder to find and more expensive :/ I probably wouldn't have a problem with the listing if it was clear that this watch was a fake, but the number of times "original" was used in the listing (three) is concerning, dishonest, and exploitative.

I'm not railing on dj898. I think many of us have bought a franken once or twice before -- sometimes knowingly, more often accidentally. But the most important thing, I believe, is to be able to make an informed buying decision. If you purchase a franken, you should know full well that what you're buying is not authentic. It should be _your_ choice, not some unsavory surprise at some point down the road. Some eBay sellers (like "kasta5252") may intend to deceive, but through the sharing of knowledge we can educate ourselves to avoid such unscrupulous dealers and only pay for products that we truly intend to purchase.

My intention is not to berate you, dj898, so please don't take any offense. It's just my perspective. I really do hope you enjoy the watch


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## kev80e

He certainly has some "interesting" pieces. I agree mroatman that these make it more difficult to get something original and shows the importance of doing some research. This is a real cracker.Vintage Soviet Space Propaganda Watch Gagarin Profile on The Back Dial | eBay


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## dutchassasin

kev80e said:


> I agree mroatman that these make it more difficult to get something original and shows the importance of doing some research.


How come more difficult? its clearly a fake, everything is wrong in comparison to the original one. With some small research you wont be fooled by these. Its not like they made a 1 on 1 replica.


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## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> How come more difficult? its clearly a fake, everything is wrong in comparison to the original one. With some small research you wont be fooled by these. Its not like they made a 1 on 1 replica.


It becomes more difficult when sellers see frankens as a viable business model and resort to this rather than offering genuine watches for sale. It also takes otherwise viable/genuine watches off the market when they're reassembled into franken-watches


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## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> How come more difficult? its clearly a fake, everything is wrong in comparison to the original one. With some small research you wont be fooled by these. Its not like they made a 1 on 1 replica.


But you're right, it's not more difficult in terms of parsing out real from fake -- at least in this case. But this is a somewhat caricatured example. Some of the modern reproduction dials are very convincing indeed. And given the direction things are going, I think it's only a matter of time that separating genuine from franken becomes a science that only a few are able to master...


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## elsoldemayo

mroatman said:


> But you're right, it's not more difficult in terms of parsing out real from fake -- at least in this case. But this is a somewhat caricatured example. Some of the modern reproduction dials are very convincing indeed. And given the direction things are going, I think it's only a matter of time that separating genuine from franken becomes a science that only a few are able to master...


With expensive Swiss watches and similar the fakes can be pretty much identical, but for the vast majority of Soviet/Russian watches, the margins probably aren't there to put huge effort into perfect replicas. Sputnik reproduction dials are an example where the fakes are obvious even though a good original goes for $200 or more. Even most of the Strela and Okean dials are easily spotted if they are fakes and there would be big margins if they can be faked convincingly. 
As for movements, the biggest issue seems to be replacements rather than outright fakes, although 24hr watches with converted movements does seem to be an exception for some reason.

Another reason the relative cheapness of Russian watches is a benefit.


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## kev80e

dutchassasin said:


> How come more difficult? its clearly a fake, everything is wrong in comparison to the original one. With some small research you wont be fooled by these. Its not like they made a 1 on 1 replica.


Sorry probably didn't make myself clear was on my mobile. The case back on the example I showed probably came off an interesting piece but it has been used on an obvious franken which is a real shame. Also when you search for a particular watch you have to trawl through endless franken ones, some easier to dismiss than others, to find a proper one. I agree it is up to individuals what they buy and the most important thing is that you know what it is, 100% genuine , 50% genuine and that you are happy and like it. The example I showed reported to be 100% genuine , obviously not. In all fairness if I spot one and I'm unsure I look at what else they have and finding lots of obvious franken watches I leave them alone so they lose my buisness. The odd genuine mistake is made by sellers but some must know and have mainly franken watches .


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## dj898

mroatman said:


> I'm afraid there isn't a single element on this watch that's genuine  But if you like it, I'm sure it'll tell the time ;-)


Just as I suspected. Thank you for the detailed info. Yes I like the "re"-dial so $34 is not total waste. I'm plan to give it to my kid as school watch with black strap swapped as per school regulation. ^^
Beats the Swatch I was going to buy - boring black with white dial at around A$89.

No worries mates. No offence taken.
I was aware this was franken and the price was less than half of cheap Swatch. ^^

I did bought another franken before but I was fully aware and the seller made it clear with many hints in the listing although other seller(s) are trying to pass the same watch as a genuine article at $999 a pop. I paid $80 for mine which IMHO was fair.

Cheers comrades


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## Mako

I hope this is the right place for this. I've been off the grey and WUS for a spell and am now in a point in my life where it's become time to downsize to only the needful things. I've been going through my timepieces and trying to sort out what's what, when purchased etc. so a,s to sell off, leave for my son ,gift to family and so on. Bought this around 2000 but cannot recall the details of the purchase. I do recall it was from a "reputable" site andmimdidmpay a nice sum. I have the packaging somewhere but am now questioning the integrity of this watch. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you fellow WUS memebers and resident experts.


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## schnurrp

I don't have any problem with taking otherwise un-used parts of soviet watches and combining them to produce a new unique watch. I have done this quite a few times for my own use and even sold some as "parts watches". What's not right, and is seen too many times, is sellers trying to represent these parts watches or frankens as authentic. Forum member amil is a good example of a seller that I think does it right. In among his authentic offerings he also has some "homages" and also some with reproduction dials which he identifies as "dial has been restored". It would be a good education to look at all his items with dials that have been restored. You have probably seen the same dial represented elsewhere as authentic.

Here's one you see all the time:









And amil's description:









Keep in mind, also, that very few sellers are knowledgeable collectors and may be relying on their wholesale sources for statements of authenticity. So always realize that you must authenticate for yourself. Some sellers are better than others but remember: "trust but verify!"


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## dutchassasin

Mako, looks genuine Volmax okeah.


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## Lokifish

schnurrp, no arguments here. Personally, I break it down into categories. 100% original (as it came from the factory), original repaired/restored, catalog/period correct, catalog correct (reissue dials and such), custom (homages, SE's and such go here), and franken/parts (whatever parts that were in arms reach). 

On the custom ones I've done so far, I note what was changed and put it on the case back on the inside. This is something that carried over from doing custom Kiev cameras for folks.


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## polmax3133

Mako said:


> I hope this is the right place for this. I've been off the grey and WUS for a spell and am now in a point in my life where it's become time to downsize to only the needful things. I've been going through my timepieces and trying to sort out what's what, when purchased etc. so a,s to sell off, leave for my son ,gift to family and so on. Bought this around 2000 but cannot recall the details of the purchase. I do recall it was from a "reputable" site andmimdidmpay a nice sum. I have the packaging somewhere but am now questioning the integrity of this watch. Any help would be appreciated.
> Thank you fellow WUS memebers and resident experts.


Looks fine, Mako. I would actually be interested in knowing exactly when and where it was purchased if you still have the paperwork. My guess is that it is closer to 2005, but it certainly could be earlier than that.


----------



## mroatman

What do y'all make of this one? The case and crown are clearly replaced, but the dial and movement look good to me. My question is about the hands...were they ever supposed to be so bright? The hand color does not match the number color, and I'm assuming it should. At best, I figure they're original hands that have been relumed. Any other thoughts?


----------



## WatchNewbi3

Hello everyone,

Are the Raketa 24Hour watches sold by this bloke on evilbay franken or the real deal?
eBay

Rare Russian Mechanical Watch Raketa 24 Hours Cali 2623 H Made IN Ussr 1 29 | eBay

Thanks for the help~!

EDIT:
How about this watch? The movement looks legit but is the hands correct? It looks like it's using a Sturmanskie Sputnik case but with the wrong hands. Any info regarding the watches found in this 3 link is greatly appreciated. Thank-you
Watch Poljot Sturmanskie Aviator Worldwide in the Russian watches online shop


----------



## schnurrp

WatchNewbi3 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Are the Raketa 24Hour watches sold by this bloke on evilbay franken or the real deal?
> eBay
> 
> Rare Russian Mechanical Watch Raketa 24 Hours Cali 2623 H Made IN Ussr 1 29 | eBay
> 
> Thanks for the help~!
> 
> EDIT:
> How about this watch? The movement looks legit but is the hands correct? It looks like it's using a Sturmanskie Sputnik case but with the wrong hands. Any info regarding the watches found in this 3 link is greatly appreciated. Thank-you
> Watch Poljot Sturmanskie Aviator Worldwide in the Russian watches online shop


I don't know where the first one came from but if you compare it to an authentic soviet-era example found in catalogs there are many differences, the first of which is the case which is used on the perpetual calendar model, I believe. The 24 hr. case has conventional lugs.

The second one is also a mystery. The movement has the main bridge from a 2610 movement usually found on the anti-magnetic model. 2623 is the 24 hour movement designation. The rest of the watch is composed of parts sourced here and there but most certainly not from St. Petersburg, in my opinion.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> What do y'all make of this one? The case and crown are clearly replaced, but the dial and movement look good to me. My question is about the hands...were they ever supposed to be so bright? The hand color does not match the number color, and I'm assuming it should. At best, I figure they're original hands that have been relumed. Any other thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 4235842
> 
> 
> View attachment 4235850
> 
> 
> View attachment 4235858
> 
> 
> View attachment 4235866


What's wrong with the case and crown? They look similar to this one of Ill-Phil's. I am not really familiar with this watch but I am hoping the dial is fake because I don't want to believe soviet watch designers would print "raised" numerals on a dial. I will be watching to see what others have to say.


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## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> What's wrong with the case and crown? They look similar to this one of Ill-Phil's. I am not really familiar with this watch but I am hoping the dial is fake because I don't want to believe soviet watch designers would print "raised" numerals on a dial. I will be watching to see what others have to say.
> 
> View attachment 4236906


Oops! I guess they did:


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## WatchNewbi3

schnurrp said:


> I don't know where the first one came from but if you compare it to an authentic soviet-era example found in catalogs there are many differences, the first of which is the case which is used on the perpetual calendar model, I believe. The 24 hr. case has conventional lugs.
> 
> The second one is also a mystery. The movement has the main bridge from a 2610 movement usually found on the anti-magnetic model. 2623 is the 24 hour movement designation. The rest of the watch is composed of parts sourced here and there but most certainly not from St. Petersburg, in my opinion.


Thanks for the reply mate. Appreciate the info given. Looks like it's getting harder and harder to find an unfranken 24 hour russian watch. *sigh*


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## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> What's wrong with the case and crown? They look similar to this one of Ill-Phil's. I am not really familiar with this watch but I am hoping the dial is fake because I don't want to believe soviet watch designers would print "raised" numerals on a dial. I will be watching to see what others have to say.


The case and crown are correct, I believe, just too new. I guess they were taken from a similar Volna or Vostok. The lack of any wear at all was my red flag.

Phil's crown has been replaced -- or at least I've never seen that crown in any catalog. It should be smaller and knob-like. His is too squared-off.

I believe the numbers are raised because of the lume. This is the only Sputnik to my knowledge, Chistopol or 1MWF, that was lumed. I've found it in the 1960 catalog on page 167, but of course with black and white photos there's no way to verify the (bright blue) coloration:









The description indicates светомасса (phosphor), but since no others do I am fairly confident this was the only Sputnik with lume.

Side question -- can anyone tell the difference between Design II and Design IV (pages 168 and 170)? They look the same to me. I'm sure it's obvious when the descriptions are read, but I can't read Russian.

Edit: I've decided the watch in question is likely fully original with with the exception of a replaced crown (and maybe a replaced case as well). But the dial, hands, and movement are authentic, I think, including the original lume. If you look closely, the lume on the hour minute has cracked and is coming away from the tip of that hand. The seller confirmed that no parts of the watch glow, suggesting that any luminescence that once was there has now been lost. The dial is far better than most, but still yellowed with age and with some patina at the bottom. These are no guarantees but I think good indications that the watch in its original state. In such condition, this example is rare, but the seller's asking price is still too high so I am going to pass.


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## schnurrp

Look at this picture and tell me those numerals aren't printed on. How can you see the raised portion of the right side of the numeral looking from the left?:


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## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Look at this picture and tell me those numerals aren't printed on. How can you see the raised portion of the right side of the numeral looking from the left?


Yes, the numbers definitely look printed. I guess the "phosphor" in the catalog description only applies to the hands? While it would be very weird to have hand lume without dial lume, I guess it's not impossible.

Or maybe there was a way to print lume that I am not aware of.

Or maybe this dial is fake. Is that was you're suggesting? The tell-tale sign of a franken Chistopol Sputnik dial (aside from a sparkling-white-fresh-from-the-factory appearance) is the shape of the numeral 4 on the minute track. Look just by the 8....on authentic dials, the top of the 4 does not connect. On redials, the font is different and 'sharper':


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## schnurrp

Initially I thought it might be fake but it was not pristine enough and when I found the other obviously old similar dial I decided the printed raised number dial is authentic. See below a close up view of the other dial:









The "2" in "12" is the best view of the fake depth of the printed numbers on this dial, also "9" and "1" (raised numerals would not wear away like that either).

A strange dial design to say the least. What were they thinking?


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> A strange dial design to say the least. What were they thinking?


Hey, I don't think it's so bad....I liked it enough to consider buying it.

Speaking of blue lume, what's the deal with this one?

























I've been eyeing it for a long time, always thinking it was a clear example of someone having fun with reluming. But now with the blue lume on the Sputnik, I'm wondering if there were any Kamas with blue lume? Even if it's not original, I like the look of it.


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> Hey, I don't think it's so bad....I liked it enough to consider buying it.
> 
> Speaking of blue lume, what's the deal with this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been eyeing it for a long time, always thinking it was a clear example of someone having fun with reluming. But now with the blue lume on the Sputnik, I'm wondering if there were any Kamas with blue lume? Even if it's not original, I like the look of it.


Only the hour and minute hands are lumed on the original.









While trying to conceal the damaged dial at the level of the dial foot base (11 o'clock), this someone added lume to the dial. Still, I think that the hand might have their old lume on...


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> The case and crown are correct, I believe, just too new. I guess they were taken from a similar Volna or Vostok. The lack of any wear at all was my red flag.
> 
> Phil's crown has been replaced -- or at least I've never seen that crown in any catalog. It should be smaller and knob-like. His is too squared-off.
> 
> I believe the numbers are raised because of the lume. This is the only Sputnik to my knowledge, Chistopol or 1MWF, that was lumed. I've found it in the 1960 catalog on page 167, but of course with black and white photos there's no way to verify the (bright blue) coloration:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The description indicates светомасса (phosphor), but since no others do I am fairly confident this was the only Sputnik with lume.
> 
> Side question -- can anyone tell the difference between Design II and Design IV (pages 168 and 170)? They look the same to me. I'm sure it's obvious when the descriptions are read, but I can't read Russian.
> 
> Edit: I've decided the watch in question is likely fully original with with the exception of a replaced crown (and maybe a replaced case as well). But the dial, hands, and movement are authentic, I think, including the original lume. If you look closely, the lume on the hour minute has cracked and is coming away from the tip of that hand. The seller confirmed that no parts of the watch glow, suggesting that any luminescence that once was there has now been lost. The dial is far better than most, but still yellowed with age and with some patina at the bottom. These are no guarantees but I think good indications that the watch in its original state. In such condition, this example is rare, but the seller's asking price is still too high so I am going to pass.


The Design I has golden numbers on the dial, the Design II has white numbers with golden outline, the Design IV has lumed numbers with golden outline.


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> Only the hour and minute hands are lumed on the original.


Ah, so same as the Chistopol Sputnik. Interesting. And from the same catalog to boot.

I don't really see the utility in luming hands without luming the dial as well, but I do like that blue lume. Thanks!


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> Ah, so same as the Chistopol Sputnik. Interesting. And from the same catalog to boot.
> 
> I don't really see the utility in luming hands without luming the dial as well, but I do like that blue lume. Thanks!


Well, one sees the approximate time knowing where his wrist is and how it is orientated...


----------



## WatchNewbi3

Greetings once again,

After a failed attempt at purchasing a legitimate 24 hour watch, I found the following 3 watches. Are they franken?

(1) Nice Russian Vostok Komandirskie Watch Tula 850 Years Anniversary Edition | eBay

(2) Vintage Soviet Moskva Moscow Windup Watch 1st MCHZ Serviced '1950s | eBay

(3) Rare Soviet Vostok Komandirskie Military Watch Zakaz MO Ussr Serviced | eBay

As always, any info regarding the legitimacy of these 3 watches is highly welcomed.
Thank-you


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> Well, one sees the approximate time knowing where his wrist is and how it is orientated...


Unfortunately, after too much time spent on f10, I'm so confused I rarely know where my wrist is or how its oriented.


----------



## mroatman

WatchNewbi3 said:


> Greetings once again,
> 
> After a failed attempt at purchasing a legitimate 24 hour watch, I found the following 3 watches. Are they franken?
> 
> (1) Nice Russian Vostok Komandirskie Watch Tula 850 Years Anniversary Edition | eBay
> 
> (2) Vintage Soviet Moskva Moscow Windup Watch 1st MCHZ Serviced '1950s | eBay
> 
> (3) Rare Soviet Vostok Komandirskie Military Watch Zakaz MO Ussr Serviced | eBay
> 
> As always, any info regarding the legitimacy of these 3 watches is highly welcomed.
> Thank-you


If we apply the common recommendation to "buy the seller", you can do far worse than Alexey (svtrrts). He's honest, fair, and his watches are truly serviced (by his father, I believe). In addition, any issues I've had with his watches have been remedied swiftly and free of charge. However, it's not a fool-proof method as even the most reliable sellers sometimes make an error, even if it's unintentional.

The Москва may be a good example of this. It seems to be a combination of the two watches below, with the dial from one and the hands from another:

















Furthermore, the dial states 16 Jewels while the movement indicates 15 -- a clear mismatch.

I would also usually say that hand lume without dial lume is a red flag, but it seems we've seen several of those here lately. It must have been a trend in this era judging by the multiple examples in the 1960 catalog, so not necessarily an infallible way to distinguish real from franken as I once thought it was.


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> Only the hour and minute hands are lumed on the original.
> While trying to conceal the damaged dial at the level of the dial foot base (11 o'clock), this someone added lume to the dial. Still, I think that the hand might have their old lume on...


But doesn't this mean that the dial was original lumed?

"Часовые знаки и каждое пятое деление минутной шкалы покры. ты светомассой."

I'm using Google here, so it's a crude translation at best. But it seems to indicate the the lume as represented in the photo was part of the original design (phosphor every 5 minutes), even though it's almost certainly not the original lume anymore.


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> The Design I has golden numbers on the dial, the Design II has white numbers with golden outline, the Design IV has lumed numbers with golden outline.


Thanks for this. For anyone interested, I found a PDF of the 1960 catalog which makes translating as easy as copy and paste -- no more fumbling around painstakingly on a virtual Cyrillic keyboard for me.

Though I will say I think the catalog has a misprint in these Sputnik descriptions. The catalog claims that Design II has white numbers with a golden border, but is otherwise similar to Design I. But that simply cannot be true as the hands are clearly quite different. Design I has the blue-lumed hands we've discussed before, and Design II has the gilded "necktie" hands. Something's off.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Thanks for this. For anyone interested, I found a PDF of the 1960 catalog which makes translating as easy as copy and paste -- no more fumbling around painstakingly on a virtual Cyrillic keyboard for me.
> 
> Though I will say I think the catalog has a misprint in these Sputnik descriptions. The catalog claims that Design II has white numbers with a golden border, but is otherwise similar to Design I. But that simply cannot be true as the hands are clearly quite different. Design I has the blue-lumed hands we've discussed before, and Design II has the gilded "necktie" hands. Something's off.


I simply don't have time to keep up with your musings, Dashiel! I will comment later but I must say that the pdf catalog is priceless to me. Thank you!


----------



## WatchNewbi3

mroatman said:


> If we apply the common recommendation to "buy the seller", you can do far worse than Alexey (svtrrts). He's honest, fair, and his watches are truly serviced (by his father, I believe). In addition, any issues I've had with his watches have been remedied swiftly and free of charge. However, it's not a fool-proof method as even the most reliable sellers sometimes make an error, even if it's unintentional.
> 
> The Москва may be a good example of this. It seems to be a combination of the two watches below, with the dial from one and the hands from another:
> 
> View attachment 4250074
> 
> 
> View attachment 4250066
> 
> 
> Furthermore, the dial states 16 Jewels while the movement indicates 15 -- a clear mismatch.
> 
> I would also usually say that hand lume without dial lume is a red flag, but it seems we've seen several of those here lately. It must have been a trend in this era judging by the multiple examples in the 1960 catalog, so not necessarily an infallible way to distinguish real from franken as I once thought it was.


 Thanks for the informative reply mate. I must have missed the 16 jewels on the dial of the watch. I am planning to pull the trigger on the hacking Komandirskie. It says that it has been service and according to your statement, the watches sold by Alexy has indeed been serviced. But my question is, will these watches need a new balance or gear train? seeing as how the balance staff would have been worn over the years.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I simply don't have time to keep up with your musings, Dashiel! I will comment later but I must say that the pdf catalog is priceless to me. Thank you!


You're certainly welcome. But wait, there's more.

That PDF actually came from what I consider to be a fairly comprehensive source for catalogs, more so even than Antonov's: OROLOGIKO • Leggi argomento - Cataloghi orologi sovietici - Soviet Watches Catalogs. I especially like that the catalogs are listed in chronological order, that almost every catalog is available in both JPEG and PDF, and that the page is continually updated (last update as of March 16th). There are also some very helpful links at the beginning of the post regarding horological literature, the Cyrillic alphabet/writing system, the Russian language, and other various odds and ends.

It's an Italian post, but easy enough to navigate. I've found that if you run a search for a brand (e.g. "Poljot") or a date (e.g. "1960") then you can find what you're seeking very easily. Now off you go.


----------



## mroatman

WatchNewbi3 said:


> Thanks for the informative reply mate. I must have missed the 16 jewels on the dial of the watch. I am planning to pull the trigger on the hacking Komandirskie. It says that it has been service and according to your statement, the watches sold by Alexy has indeed been serviced. But my question is, will these watches need a new balance or gear train? seeing as how the balance staff would have been worn over the years.


A well-maintained watch should last decades with original parts, so I can't see a need to replace them unless.....there's a need to replace them. Of course parts will occasionally fail, but there's really no way to predict that to my knowledge. I believe mechanical failure is more often a result of poor maintenance (dirt, grime, congealed oil, rust) than worn/broken parts -- but I'm no expert here. If Alexey lists the watch as serviced and running, I would say the watch is serviced and running. Many senior collectors will advise that it's always good to have spare parts on hand, and I can't find any fault with that recommendation. But for the casual collector, I think you'd be fine not worrying about spare parts until the need arises.

If you liked the look of the Moskva, this one seems to be fully genuine and for less money (so far).


----------



## WatchNewbi3

mroatman said:


> A well-maintained watch should last decades with original parts, so I can't see a need to replace them unless.....there's a need to replace them. Of course parts will occasionally fail, but there's really no way to predict that to my knowledge. I believe mechanical failure is more often a result of poor maintenance (dirt, grime, congealed oil, rust) than worn/broken parts -- but I'm no expert here. If Alexey lists the watch as serviced and running, I would say the watch is serviced and running. Many senior collectors will advise that it's always good to have spare parts on hand, and I can't find any fault with that recommendation. But for the casual collector, I think you'd be fine not worrying about spare parts until the need arises.
> 
> If you liked the look of the Moskva, this one seems to be fully genuine and for less money (so far).


 Interesting, because whenever I take a vintage watch to service at my local watchsmith, the results are mostly the same in that he will tell me that a complete overhaul of the vintage piece can be done, but not much improvement would be gained from the performance aspect of the watch as the balance staff has most likely been worn on these vintage watches leading to "wobbly balance". So for every vintage unserviced piece I buy on the net, I'll make sure to get replacement mainsprings and balance assembly to my local watchsmith for a complete overhaul.

I have just shot Alexey an email regarding my inquiry and I am currently waiting for his reply. Thanks for the heads up on the Moskav, but I have decided to set my sights on the Komandirskie. I shall take a look at it nonetheless.

Thanks~!


----------



## mroatman

WatchNewbi3 said:


> Interesting, because whenever I take a vintage watch to service at my local watchsmith, the results are mostly the same in that he will tell me that a complete overhaul of the vintage piece can be done, but not much improvement would be gained from the performance aspect of the watch as the balance staff has most likely been worn on these vintage watches leading to "wobbly balance". So for every vintage unserviced piece I buy on the net, I'll make sure to get replacement mainsprings and balance assembly to my local watchsmith for a complete overhaul.
> 
> I have just shot Alexey an email regarding my inquiry and I am currently waiting for his reply. Thanks for the heads up on the Moskav, but I have decided to set my sights on the Komandirskie. I shall take a look at it nonetheless.
> 
> Thanks~!


I see. As I said, I'm no expert in this area, and it sounds like you know more about this than I do. Certain movements could be more prone to wobbly balance than others, I suppose, depending on the manufacturer, age, caliber, service history, etc. Is this wobble significantly affecting timekeeping? I usually don't fuss if a watch is within a minute or two of accuracy per day. I call that "working" and don't typically meddle with things until they break. I realize this is not good practice in preventative maintenance, but I have too many watches (and too low of a budget) to service them all unless necessary.

Judging by the number of watches he sells, I'm guessing Alexey has an arsenal of parts on hand, especially for the more common movements. Good luck!


----------



## WatchNewbi3

mroatman said:


> I see. As I said, I'm no expert in this area, and it sounds like you know more about this than I do. Certain movements could be more prone to wobbly balance than others, I suppose, depending on the manufacturer, age, caliber, service history, etc. Is this wobble significantly affecting timekeeping? I usually don't fuss if a watch is within a minute or two of accuracy per day. I call that "working" and don't typically meddle with things until they break. I realize this is not good practice in preventative maintenance, but I have too many watches (and too low of a budget) to service them all unless necessary.
> 
> Judging by the number of watches he sells, I'm guessing Alexey has an arsenal of parts on hand, especially for the more common movements. Good luck!


Thank-you~!


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> But doesn't this mean that the dial was original lumed?
> 
> "Часовые знаки и каждое пятое деление минутной шкалы покры. ты светомассой."
> 
> I'm using Google here, so it's a crude translation at best. But it seems to indicate the the lume as represented in the photo was part of the original design (phosphor every 5 minutes), even though it's almost certainly not the original lume anymore.


Not on the KAMA "190ChN/191ChN/192ChN Design I" we were discussing!


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> Thanks for this. For anyone interested, I found a PDF of the 1960 catalog which makes translating as easy as copy and paste -- no more fumbling around painstakingly on a virtual Cyrillic keyboard for me.
> 
> Though I will say I think the catalog has a misprint in these Sputnik descriptions. The catalog claims that Design II has white numbers with a golden border, but is otherwise similar to Design I. But that simply cannot be true as the hands are clearly quite different. Design I has the blue-lumed hands we've discussed before, and Design II has the gilded "necktie" hands. Something's off.


I've seen this: the catalogue has indeed several small mistakes and there is some discrepancy between the description and the pictures. Think that this wasn't a catalogue of the actual factories, but of the "Central Institute of Scientific and Technical Information for the Electro-Technical Industry and Manufacturing of the State Scientific Committee of the Council of Ministers of the USSR" (!) to present in one book different products from different factories. A huge compendium, thinking of the lack of computers in those days!
Alas, one of the unique source of information for us collectors!


----------



## schnurrp

WatchNewbi3 said:


> Interesting, because whenever I take a vintage watch to service at my local watchsmith, the results are mostly the same in that he will tell me that a complete overhaul of the vintage piece can be done, but not much improvement would be gained from the performance aspect of the watch as the balance staff has most likely been worn on these vintage watches leading to "wobbly balance". So for every vintage unserviced piece I buy on the net, I'll make sure to get replacement mainsprings and balance assembly to my local watchsmith for a complete overhaul.
> 
> I have just shot Alexey an email regarding my inquiry and I am currently waiting for his reply. Thanks for the heads up on the Moskav, but I have decided to set my sights on the Komandirskie. I shall take a look at it nonetheless.
> 
> Thanks~!


I assume you know that this watch is quite small at around 30mm. For me the main reason a watch should operate accurately and dependably is so that I can wear it. The Moskva is too small to wear, in my opinion, so if I was considering it, it would only be as a nice thing to fill a slot in my collection I could take out and look at occasionally. As such, I could accept some worn parts and less than perfect mechanical operation , but that's just me.


----------



## WatchNewbi3

schnurrp said:


> I assume you know that this watch is quite small at around 30mm. For me the main reason a watch should operate accurately and dependably is so that I can wear it. The Moskva is too small to wear, in my opinion, so if I was considering it, it would only be as a nice thing to fill a slot in my collection I could take out and look at occasionally. As such, I could accept some worn parts and less than perfect mechanical operation , but that's just me.


The Moskav maybe too small for your wrist, but for my barely 6 inch spaghetti wrist, seems perfect. Some of my (well two of my) vintage pieces and one of my modern piece are only 32mm and I wear them with no problem. But that is just my opinion. All of my watches are below 40mm save for my incoming Parnis GMT and Pocket Watches. I wish my wrist were larger so that I can wear some nice looking watches.


----------



## schnurrp

WatchNewbi3 said:


> The Moskav maybe too small for your wrist, but for my barely 6 inch spaghetti wrist, seems perfect. Some of my (well two of my) vintage pieces and one of my modern piece are only 32mm and I wear them with no problem. But that is just my opinion. All of my watches are below 40mm save for my incoming Parnis GMT and Pocket Watches. I wish my wrist were larger so that I can wear some nice looking watches.


Oh, that's different. You get to wear a lot of watches made by the soviets that are usually considered too small. That would make an interesting collection. Do you have a "Red Twelve" Pobeda? A very historic soviet watch that's too small for most wearers but was considered a mans watch when it was first made in the late '40s. The story is Stalin was personally involved in the design.









Notice how little case appears around the 26mm movement.


----------



## WatchNewbi3

mroatman said:


> I see. As I said, I'm no expert in this area, and it sounds like you know more about this than I do. Certain movements could be more prone to wobbly balance than others, I suppose, depending on the manufacturer, age, caliber, service history, etc. Is this wobble significantly affecting timekeeping? I usually don't fuss if a watch is within a minute or two of accuracy per day. I call that "working" and don't typically meddle with things until they break. I realize this is not good practice in preventative maintenance, but I have too many watches (and too low of a budget) to service them all unless necessary.
> 
> Judging by the number of watches he sells, I'm guessing Alexey has an arsenal of parts on hand, especially for the more common movements. Good luck!


Alexey has replied me and states that the watch he sells is indeed serviced by his father (a watchmaker with 35 years of experience). He even accepted my request of regulating the watch on the timegrapher before sending it out to me. Great service so far. Now eagerly waiting for my 3AKA MO CCCP 2234 Komandriskie!


----------



## WatchNewbi3

schnurrp said:


> Oh, that's different. You get to wear a lot of watches made by the soviets that are usually considered too small. That would make an interesting collection. Do you have a "Red Twelve" Pobeda? A very historic soviet watch that's too small for most wearers but was considered a mans watch when it was first made in the late '40s. The story is Stalin was personally involved in the design.
> 
> View attachment 4264322
> 
> 
> Notice how little case appears around the 26mm movement.


I saw this watch when I was browsing the bay and thought the price was steep for a vintage Russian piece. Then after reading your post, I finally understood why the watch was priced so. Never in my wildest imagination would I think Mr Stalin was personally involved in the design of this watch.

This forum is always so helpful and so much information could be obtained here, wish I had joined earlier.


----------



## emoscambio

schnurrp said:


> Oh, that's different. You get to wear a lot of watches made by the soviets that are usually considered too small. That would make an interesting collection. Do you have a "Red Twelve" Pobeda? A very historic soviet watch that's too small for most wearers but was considered a mans watch when it was first made in the late '40s. The story is Stalin was personally involved in the design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how little case appears around the 26mm movement.


This is an oversized watch, just as the Kolos with its 28.5 mm.
The Uran with it's 28 mm is still quite OK, but a bit large, IMHO.

















Just joking, guys!


----------



## mroatman

WatchNewbi3 said:


> I saw this watch when I was browsing the bay and thought the price was steep for a vintage Russian piece. Then after reading your post, I finally understood why the watch was priced so.


I think the prices are artificially inflated. And as long as people keep buying them at $60+, sellers will keep marking them as high. Last time I checked Etsy, there were multiple examples of "Red 12" Pobedas for under $40.

Yep, there are still several:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/231400...ef=shop_home_active_18&ga_search_query=pobeda
https://www.etsy.com/listing/235774...a_search_query=red 12 pobeda&ref=sr_gallery_5
https://www.etsy.com/listing/235389...a_search_query=red 12 pobeda&ref=sr_gallery_7
https://www.etsy.com/listing/235389...0253b5f348704f14aaf6f722541bfd9f3c8:235389552
https://www.etsy.com/listing/231778...llery&ga_search_query=pobeda&ref=sr_gallery_8


----------



## mroatman

WatchNewbi3 said:


> Alexey has replied me and states that the watch he sells is indeed serviced by his father (a watchmaker with 35 years of experience). He even accepted my request of regulating the watch on the timegrapher before sending it out to me. Great service so far. Now eagerly waiting for my 3AKA MO CCCP 2234 Komandriskie!


Good to hear. My experiences have been similar.


----------



## WatchNewbi3

mroatman said:


> I think the prices are artificially inflated. And as long as people keep buying them at $60+, sellers will keep marking them as high. Last time I checked Etsy, there were multiple examples of "Red 12" Pobedas for under $40.
> 
> Yep, there are still several:
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/231400...ef=shop_home_active_18&ga_search_query=pobeda
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/235774903/pobeda-red-12-1948-wrist-watch-15-jewels?ga_order=price_asc&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=red%2012%20pobeda&ref=sr_gallery_5
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/235389...a_search_query=red 12 pobeda&ref=sr_gallery_7
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/235389...0253b5f348704f14aaf6f722541bfd9f3c8:235389552
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/231778...llery&ga_search_query=pobeda&ref=sr_gallery_8


Hmm....never heard about Etsy before in my neck of the woods. I'd seriously rather buy from Evilbay with Paypal protection rather than anywhere else. But thanks for the heads up anyway mate! Once I've receive my watch, I shall post it up on a new thread.


----------



## mroatman

WatchNewbi3 said:


> Hmm....never heard about Etsy before in my neck of the woods. I'd seriously rather buy from Evilbay with Paypal protection rather than anywhere else. But thanks for the heads up anyway mate! Once I've receive my watch, I shall post it up on a new thread.


Etsy has the exact same PayPal protection (anytime you pay with PayPal, regardless of website, you're covered as part of PayPal's terms and conditions) as well as their own "Etsy Buyer Protection Program" which is not unlike eBay's.

But you're not the only one who I've spoken with who's wary of non-eBay online retailers. Which is fine by me...less competition ;-)


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> Not on the KAMA "190ChN/191ChN/192ChN Design I" we were discussing!


But, but, but.....it was on that design!









Plus, here's another example from a reliable French collector who, if I'm not mistaken, is one of us...









I tend to believe that blue lume on the dial, however crazy it appears, is probably authentic.


----------



## mroatman

mroatman said:


> Plus, here's another example from a reliable French collector who, if I'm not mistaken, is one of us...
> 
> I tend to believe that blue lume on the dial, however crazy it appears, is probably authentic.


And here's one with what is probably the original lume, I guess:


----------



## emoscambio

Sorry, I had missed the unusual second mention of the hour digits and markers being lumed.

Personally I'd say that the blue is an old green!


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> Sorry, I had missed the unusual second mention of the hour digits and markers being lumed.
> 
> Personally I'd say that the blue is an old green!


Ah yes, that could be.


----------



## Peter-Paul

Guys,

Could you tell me the era that this watch was made, and also, any information about the non-rotating bezel? Any information at all would be very much appreciated. Thank you!


----------



## kev80e

I said no more for a while......but .








Should I or not?


----------



## elsoldemayo

I can't add any expertise regarding the authenticity of the watch, but for the price it's listed at, if it's the real deal it's a bargain... go on... you know you want to.... just one more watch 

Edit: If i hadn't bought one just like it for about €20 more yesterday I'd have probably pulled the trigger on this when i saw it a few hours ago.


----------



## kev80e

Sod it , one more can't hurt. My wife said it can be my wedding anniversary present so got it. Think I have 3133 fever.


----------



## elsoldemayo

kev80e said:


> Sod it , one more can't hurt. My wife said it can be my wedding anniversary present so got it. Think I have 3133 fever.


I might have the same disease. Enjoy the watch, it looks to be in great condition.


----------



## emoscambio

kev80e said:


> I said no more for a while......but .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should I or not?


The guy is a very friendly reliable Italian guy in Torino, he has a website with all of his offers.

http://online.pageflippdf.com/oubp/lpdy/

He has mostly pristine watches, not photoshopped, sends at no profit and sells for cheap!


----------



## kev80e

emoscambio said:


> The guy is a very friendly reliable Italian guy in Torino, he has a website with all of his offers.
> 
> Orologi russi - Russian watches for sale
> 
> He has mostly pristine watches, not photoshopped, sends at no profit and sells for cheap!


From the contact I have had he seems really good. He did offer to reduce the price if I completed outside of Ebay, but as this is my first purchase off him I declined. He has some nice items and as long as all is well this time I will probably buy again, maybe from his site rather than Ebay. He is bound to be a nice guy he's Italian, always friendly and my favourite holiday destination.


----------



## schnurrp

emoscambio said:


> The guy is a very friendly reliable Italian guy in Torino, he has a website with all of his offers.
> 
> Orologi russi - Russian watches for sale
> 
> He has mostly pristine watches, not photoshopped, sends at no profit and sells for cheap!


Cool website!


----------



## dutchassasin

Common spill the beans, who is that guy?


----------



## emoscambio

dutchassasin said:


> Common spill the beans, who is that guy?


An Italian computer expert and collector Claudio Terrosi.


----------



## schnurrp

Peter-Paul said:


> Guys,
> 
> Could you tell me the era that this watch was made, and also, any information about the non-rotating bezel? Any information at all would be very much appreciated. Thank you!


I am not familiar with that watch. It may be authentic but it also may be a construction using parts from other watches. The dial is from an '80s soviet era Vostok komandirskie as pictured below but the case is totally unknown to me. The "meatball" second hand is probably an authentic variation. The case stands a better chance of being authentic if it has a receiver in the body for a screw-down crown which it appears to have. A picture of the back would help.


----------



## thequetus

Hi all, what are your thoughts on this vintage Spring / Zarja ladies watch? The dial & movement look legit to me, but the movement seems a bit too clean for an original, no? (Seller said it's original movement.) See photos below. Here's the original Etsy listing: https://www.etsy.com/listing/224136919/womens-watch-spring-gold-plated-ladies


----------



## schnurrp

I don't see anything wrong with it.

Way too expensive though, in my opinion of course.


----------



## Luis965

Cláudio is a nice seller. I bought from him and can confirm!


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

Just picked up these three in a single eBay auction. Low price prompted me to buy without researching, but I'm curious to see what the experts say.
Unfortunately, no movement shots.

The first one was described as "ticking:"














Second one is "not ticking:"














Third one is also "ticking." I don't recall seeing a Raketa 24hr in a gold case before. Also, the chapter ring and dial seem to be different shades of white:














I would appreciate any insight on these watches.
Cheers,
-Mike


----------



## kev80e

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Just picked up these three in a single eBay auction. Low price prompted me to buy without researching, but I'm curious to see what the experts say.
> Unfortunately, no movement shots.
> 
> The first one was described as "ticking:"
> View attachment 4348753
> View attachment 4348761
> 
> 
> Second one is "not ticking:"
> View attachment 4348777
> View attachment 4348785
> 
> 
> Third one is also "ticking." I don't recall seeing a Raketa 24hr in a gold case before. Also, the chapter ring and dial seem to be different shades of white:
> View attachment 4348857
> View attachment 4348865
> 
> 
> I would appreciate any insight on these watches.
> Cheers,
> -Mike


I can't offer any sort of knowledgeable info but they look good to me, and I'm very jealous . That KGB one with that case back, never seen that before. Congratulations hopefully they turn up and are all good.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

To be honest, I'm just hoping I don't open the backs to find a jumble of spare parts. 
The three watches together were little more than the cost of a new Amphibia, so I figured I couldn't get burned too bad, even if they all turned out to be broken frankens. A repairable chronograph would be great. A working chrono would be a bonus. And if the Raketa is working, another bonus!


----------



## thequetus

schnurrp said:


> I don't see anything wrong with it.
> 
> Way too expensive though, in my opinion of course.


Thanks, schnurrp. I think it's overpriced too. Something in the $70-90 range would be more reasonable for this piece, no? Still too high?


----------



## schnurrp

thequetus said:


> Thanks, schnurrp. I think it's overpriced too. Something in the $70-90 range would be more reasonable for this piece, no? Still too high?


Ladies watches are usually quite a bit cheaper than mens but it's not a market I've spent a lot of time in. Unless it's very special in some way you should be able to find something suitable for less than $50, in my opinion. There's nothing special about that Zarya. Too bad it's not in mint shape instead of pretty good shape, then you could justify buying it since you seem to like that design. That's what the seller's depending on.


----------



## Lokifish

thequetus said:


> Thanks, schnurrp. I think it's overpriced too. Something in the $70-90 range would be more reasonable for this piece, no? Still too high?


I agree with schnurrp on this. You can get a very similar one for less than $75 and in the same condition. Now if it was one of the Chaika bracelet watches without the stone/ceramic inserts in that condition, then $70-90 would be a good buy.


----------



## schnurrp

Or this one:


----------



## thequetus

schnurrp said:


> Ladies watches are usually quite a bit cheaper than mens but it's not a market I've spent a lot of time in. Unless it's very special in some way you should be able to find something suitable for less than $50, in my opinion. There's nothing special about that Zarya. Too bad it's not in mint shape instead of pretty good shape, then you could justify buying it since you seem to like that design. That's what the seller's depending on.


Cool, good to know. I fell in love with the numbers on the dial.. that 8 gets me every time I look at it. $70 more for just those numbers isn't reasonably though. Thanks for talking me down


----------



## schnurrp

thequetus said:


> Cool, good to know. I fell in love with the numbers on the dial.. that 8 gets me every time I look at it. $70 more for just those numbers isn't reasonably though. Thanks for talking me down


That's different.

We've all probably paid more for a watch we had to have than it was actually worth. One nice thing about an overpriced watch, it will be there for a long time while you make up your mind. Also, don't forget that Etsy is an open market, as far as I know, and you can always politely make an offer to the seller even if offers aren't explicitly asked for. Good luck!


----------



## Naidan

The third watch, the Raketa is a 24 hour watch which tends to get frankened. It should have a 2623 SU movement with the details stamped internally. There are a lot more giveaways signs on these watches fior their authenticity which I am not 100% familiar with but I would post of the 24 hour watch forum and they will be able to tell you with a lot more certainty if the watch is genuine.


----------



## schnurrp

Naidan said:


> The third watch, the Raketa is a 24 hour watch which tends to get frankened. It should have a 2623 SU movement with the details stamped internally. There are a lot more giveaways signs on these watches fior their authenticity which I am not 100% familiar with but I would post of the 24 hour watch forum and they will be able to tell you with a lot more certainty if the watch is genuine.


I doubt if they'll be able to authenticate a Russian 24 hr. watch. That one's definitely a construction, in my opinion. The case with the hidden lugs is used on the perpetual calendar, not the 24 hr., the inner dial should be champagne sunburst, and the bezel should be black. Also, the back like that is never seen and if it was authentic I believe it would be Latin instead of Cyrillic.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

Thanks, Naidan and Schnurrp. 
After posting the seller's photos, I realized I really should have waited until I had them in my hands and could post good movement photos, too. I'll do that when I get them and ask for opinions again.

The 24-hour Raketas and the 3133s are watches that I have little experience with. The Peterhof case back and gold case also seemed incorrect to me, but I don't really know much about the Peterhof watches. I've just seen a few of the Peterhof Big Zeros posted here.


----------



## schnurrp

RustyNutsMGs said:


> Thanks, Naidan and Schnurrp.
> After posting the seller's photos, I realized I really should have waited until I had them in my hands and could post good movement photos, too. I'll do that when I get them and ask for opinions again.
> 
> The 24-hour Raketas and the 3133s are watches that I have little experience with. The Peterhof case back and gold case also seemed incorrect to me, but I don't really know much about the Peterhof watches. I've just seen a few of the Peterhof Big Zeros posted here.


The middle 3133 is an authentic soviet design seen in late '80s early '90s catalogs. A very distinctive design that I used to own. Not in the best of condition but if the movement is authentic with a good balance and can be brought back to life with just a cleaning you'll have something worth having. Good luck!


----------



## thequetus

schnurrp said:


> That's different.
> 
> We've all probably paid more for a watch we had to have than it was actually worth. One nice thing about an overpriced watch, it will be there for a long time while you make up your mind. Also, don't forget that Etsy is an open market, as far as I know, and you can always politely make an offer to the seller even if offers aren't explicitly asked for. Good luck!


schnurrp, I still love the dial that overpriced watch on Etsy, so I will make an offer as you suggested in a few weeks if it's still there. These people list all their watches close to or over $100, but they seem to move a lot of product too. Wish me luck! I'll post a photo if I get it.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

schnurrp said:


> The middle 3133 is an authentic soviet design seen in late '80s early '90s catalogs. A very distinctive design that I used to own. Not in the best of condition but if the movement is authentic with a good balance and can be brought back to life with just a cleaning you'll have something worth having. Good luck!


Thanks for the luck! These watches arrived today. Both of the 3133s are working and keeping perfect time - at least for the few hours I've had them. The chronograph functions corrrectly on the Soviet Poljot. There is something odd with the the other one, but I'll get to that later. First the Soviet chrono:















I don't know enough, anything really, about the 3133 movement, so I can't tell if everything is correct. I would appreciate any thoughts. Not the best photos, I know.








The case, dial, pushers, crowns, hands, and crystal are actually in quite good condition. Chapter ring turns smoothly. Case just needs to have a good cleaning.


----------



## RustyNutsMGs

The other is, according to my research, a Poljot "Chekist" made in the early 1990s. A google search will turn up a few examples in various cases. This case appears to be titanium with some sort of media-blasted matte finish. Not my favorite type of finish by any means. 
The dial is actually quite nice, if you ignore the theme anyway, and although I don't care for fantasy dials the "KGB" is fairly inconspicuous. Not so inconspicuous on the case, however. 
There is a problem when starting the chronograph from a full stop at 12 - when you push the pusher, the second hand travels backward two or three seconds before starting. If, however, I push the pusher lightly a couple of times - just as much as you can with out starting the chrono - it will start normally. Any ideas?
Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to clean or otherwise address the finish on something like this? Any thoughts on recasing it? 

Here are a few shots. I'd appreciate any critique.


----------



## kev80e

Congratulations Rustynuts , sounds like it turned out great. That Poljot looks good and hopefully it will clean up . I have one that used to jump forward which I rectified with Polmax's help, though it was pretty scary messing with it. It then started doing it again so I got a watchmaker I know to set it up for me and now it's fine so hopefully yours will be similar. There is often cases on ebay , it's just finding one you like. Good luck with it.


----------



## mroatman

What do y'all make of this one? Everything seems OK to me, but the movement number is very low (too low?). I've never seen a Poljot movement starting with 0xxxx. But it does have "19 Jewels" written in English. Perhaps one of the first Poljot 3017s? Or has the balance cock been replaced? Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## schnurrp

I looked at that one, Dashiel, and the lugs were the first thing that made me wonder. They look very short but that could be caused by distortion of the photo. The pushers and the crown look correct. According to the table that most of us use a Strela with that dial should have a serial number in the teens thousands. The balance could have been replaced or another possibility is that the dial and that Latin center bridge are replacements. But if the case and movement are as old as the serial number seems to indicate it probably should have the rounded lugs.

Anyway, I think it's safe to say some parts have been replaced or substituted, not totally original.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I looked at that one, Dashiel, and the lugs were the first thing that made me wonder. They look very short but that could be caused by distortion of the photo. The pushers and the crown look correct. According to the table that most of us use a Strela with that dial should have a serial number in the teens thousands. The balance could have been replaced or another possibility is that the dial and that Latin center bridge are replacements. But if the case and movement are as old as the serial number seems to indicate it probably should have the rounded lugs.
> 
> Anyway, I think it's safe to say some parts have been replaced or substituted, not totally original.


I think the case is correct and certainly worn enough to match the supposed age. The dial and hands look good to me, as do the crown and pushers. But I have serious doubts about the movement. I actually seem to remember the first Poljots having Cyrillic writing for "19 камней". Whatever the case, I think English "19 Jewels" and a serial number starting with zero is a mismatch.

Still, I've done business with the seller before and he's offering me a very attractive deal ($400). I'm just trying to decide if it's THAT good of a deal...


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> The balance could have been replaced or another possibility is that the dial and that Latin center bridge are replacements. But if the case and movement are as old as the serial number seems to indicate it probably should have the rounded lugs.


You know, thinking about it further, I think you might be right here. It could have been an original case with a very early movement and horribly battered Cyrillic Strela dial. A watchmaker could have replaced the Poljot dial but noticed the Cyrillic writing on the movement and added the "19 Jewels" bridge to make it seem more authentic (even though Cyrillic "19 камней" in this instance would have actually been correct). Who knows. With the climbing prices of 3017s, $400 for a working example, a nice dial, and all the external cosmetic parts in place is really tempting me. I've requested a bit more information from the seller but I doubt it'll be that illuminating. I think I'll end up going for it. My poor, poor bank account. Looks like it'll be Ramen noodles until the end of the month for me.


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## Luis965

Help with this one. Never seen a golden Vostok Desert Shield before!


----------



## dutchassasin

me neither, but who knows you can find this dial in almost any case.


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## Lokifish

Both the dial and the case were in production at the same time. Your example is not in the catalogs though, but then again a lot of legitimate Vostoks are not in the catalogs.


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## schnurrp

An unusual round-up. Gold plated brass case and crown (doesn't look like TiN), automatic movement (can't tell if it's SU or RUS), and komandirskie-type hand set. Wonder what the back looks like.


----------



## Luis965

schnurrp said:


> An unusual round-up. Gold plated brass case and crown (doesn't look like TiN), automatic movement (can't tell if it's SU or RUS), and komandirskie-type hand set. Wonder what the back looks like.


The answer to your questions is in the sellers announce:

RARE VOSTOK Russian Desert Shield Military Auto Watch from Collector Stock | eBay


----------



## schnurrp

Lol965 said:


> The answer to your questions is in the sellers announce:
> 
> RARE VOSTOK Russian Desert Shield Military Auto Watch from Collector Stock | eBay


If it was bought in the '80s, "unworn", how does one explain the post-soviet "RUS" movement? I was ready to accept it as possibly authentic if it had a soviet movement.

On the other hand, it would be quite difficult to round up those parts in that condition to construct such a watch. Could be the dates have been stated incorrectly (The Berlin wall fell in 1989 and the last of the soviet forces completed withdrawal from East Germany in 1994) and that it is from the early '90s with a left-over soviet dial and the first run of "RUS" automatics. This is the most convincing explanation for me. I would be contacting the seller for some additional provenance but maybe worth having at that price.

Another Russian watch mystery!


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## elsoldemayo

The seller has the same text on other Vostoks, and from their for sale items it looks like they are not watch specialists so I'd ignore the 'sales blurb' which was probably just cobbled together from similar items listed on eBay and do some research on their items. Although the watch is now sold anyway


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## Lokifish

schnurrp said:


> If it was bought in the '80s, "unworn", how does one explain the post-soviet "RUS" movement? I was ready to accept it as possibly authentic if it had a soviet movement.
> 
> On the other hand, it would be quite difficult to round up those parts in that condition to construct such a watch. Could be the dates have been stated incorrectly (The Berlin wall fell in 1989 and the last of the soviet forces completed withdrawal from East Germany in 1994) and that it is from the early '90s with a left-over soviet dial and the first run of "RUS" automatics. This is the most convincing explanation for me. I would be contacting the seller for some additional provenance but maybe worth having at that price.
> 
> Another Russian watch mystery!


I forgot to post which catalog I found it in (Vostok 1993), but it fits my general rule which is, ten years younger than whatever decade most sellers say.


----------



## schnurrp

Lokifish said:


> I forgot to post which catalog I found it in (Vostok 1993), but it fits my general rule which is, ten years younger than whatever decade most sellers say.


Good job finding that, Lokifish. The '93 model has the 21 jewel automatic while the one under discussion is described as 31 jewel.


----------



## Lokifish

schnurrp said:


> Good job finding that, Lokifish. The '93 model has the 21 jewel automatic while the one under discussion is described as 31 jewel.


There's a big gap in my Vostok catalogs, they go from 93 to 2001, so an overlap is possible, I'm still searching for the earliest verified instance of the 31J 2416 and latest verified instance of the shield dial and this case.


----------



## Luis965

Thanks for all the comments!

Comrade Ill-Phill has the same model in a silver colored case.

commemorative-army10

And are anoyher one is Post 26 of this thread:

My new Vostok


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## cm63400

Hello all,
I would like to have your opinion -and your expertise- on this Vostok freshly bought from eBay.
From what I could see and compare with other pics, it seems to be genuine, yet I would like to have your comments.
Dial has lost a bit of its color on the bottom, due to a long exposure to the sun, probably. Bezel rotates freely, bidirectional; lume only on the bezel dot. 
Thank you by advance,


----------



## heimdalg

I think the dial and crown have been replaced.


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## schnurrp

A classic franken, comrade first-timer. Case from komandirskie, civil dial from ?, bezel from amphibian. Better luck next time, we've all been there.

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## cm63400

schnurrp said:


> A classic franken, comrade first-timer. Case from komandirskie, civil dial from ?, bezel from amphibian. Better luck next time, we've all been there.
> 
> Welcome to the forum!


Spaciba bolchoi for your replies.
I am not that disappointed; it was a cheap buy.
My attention was drawn by the cyrillic lettering on the dial, and the CCCP made me think that it could have been actually produced in the soviet era.


----------



## schnurrp

cm63400 said:


> Spaciba bolchoi for your replies.
> I am not that disappointed; it was a cheap buy.
> My attention was drawn by the cyrillic lettering on the dial, and the CCCP made me think that it could have been actually produced in the soviet era.


I think there's a good chance all the parts were produced in the soviet union it's just that they started life in two or three different watches and were combined by a Dr. Frankenstein into the creation you bought. If you continue collecting there may be some parts from it you can use. Does the movement work well?


----------



## cm63400

Yes, the watch is working quite well: I wound it completely yesterday at 11am, and now at 6pm it is still running, quite accurately. From this point of view, I am pleasantly surprised.
I was thinking about polishing the case, and maybe set a new bezel. I am new to this business, however, so I do not know if it's possible.


----------



## historyguy

Hello all,

I'd like your opinion on this watch...it is being offered by a seller from whom I've bought before with good results, but I have no knowledge on these early Chistophol watches, so want to be sure. Also, at the asking price of just over $100, it would be my most expensive Russian watch and I really don't want to overspend on something that's not worth it. Thanks for any and all input as to condition and authenticity.


----------



## Maskdmirag

I'm not much of a watch guy, but I saw these two at a Yard Sale and for the price I had to have them.

I'm pretty sure they are Vostoks, but I don't know how to read the labels to figure out the model and stuff.

Also any chance they're fake?

vostok? - Album on Imgur


----------



## mroatman

historyguy said:


> Hello all,
> I'd like your opinion on this watch...it is being offered by a seller from whom I've bought before with good results, but I have no knowledge on these early Chistophol watches, so want to be sure. Also, at the asking price of just over $100, it would be my most expensive Russian watch and I really don't want to overspend on something that's not worth it. Thanks for any and all input as to condition and authenticity.


If this watch is fully authentic, then just over $100 would be a good deal.

Sadly, I'm guessing it's not. The dial looks too new to me. That doesn't mean anything, per se -- it's just my opinion -- but it is generally a red flag for me on watches of this vintage. The hands are likely replaced or restored -- the lume looks suspiciously new and, in the traditional line of thinking, would not be appropriate for this non-lumed dial. Then again, there are numerous examples of these Type-1s with lumed hands and no lume on the dial, so who knows? If they're just relumed, that's no big deal. Maybe the lume on the dial has come off over time, or maybe lumed hands over a non-lumed dial was a genuine variation. Here's a Chistopol Type-1 with lumed hands and a non-lumed dial from Ill Phil's collection -- one of the most respected Soviet watch collectors around. So I'm not sure.









The case and crown look to be appropriate for the period, and the movement appears fine to me, with consistent decorations on the bridges....but I'm no expert here. Polmax or pmwas would be my go-to for verification on the internals. It would be easier to verify with the =ЧЧЗ= logo stamped on the bridge, but I understand that many watches of this era left the factory without markings on the movements.

I tend to think the hands should be non-lumed as in the photos below. But that's just a guess.

























A nice looking watch, I'd wait for others to chime in before you seal the deal.


----------



## mroatman

Hmmm, I might want to revisit what I said. Looking over the pictures above, all the examples with non-lumed hands have sub-seconds dials that sit flush with the rest of the dial. Browsing through some further images, it seems those Type-1 dials with lumed hands have a recessed sub-seconds dial. Just pointing out a pattern here -- no hard evidence. But this makes me believe the dial/hands might be authentic.

Here are a few more Type-1s with lumed hands, non-lumed dials, and a recessed sub-seconds dial:

































Looks like a pretty darn good match to me!

EDIT: I was incorrect in labeling this as a "Type-1" as this would rather be a ЧК-6 movement, I believe..........I'm just going to stop posting because clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about


----------



## John Bowring

I didn't want to post this because I already feel bad about it. Have mercy on a novice who thinks he may have been conned.

Or, better, tell me all is well.


----------



## Luis965

historyguy said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I'd like your opinion on this watch...it is being offered by a seller from whom I've bought before with good results, but I have no knowledge on these early Chistophol watches, so want to be sure. Also, at the asking price of just over $100, it would be my most expensive Russian watch and I really don't want to overspend on something that's not worth it. Thanks for any and all input as to condition and authenticity


Two remarks 
- The dial seems too new as comrade mroatam said.
- The balance wheel is not from Chistopol, the inner circle should be yellow, just look at Phill example and in this one from my collection:
USSR Watches CCCP: Pocket Watches



mroatman said:


> Hmmm, I might want to revisit what I said. Looking over the pictures above, all the examples with non-lumed hands have sub-seconds dials that sit flush with the rest of the dial. Browsing through some further images, it seems those Type-1 dials with lumed hands have a recessed sub-seconds dial. Just pointing out a pattern here -- no hard evidence. But this makes me believe the dial/hands might be authentic.
> EDIT: I was incorrect in labeling this as a "Type-1" as this would rather be a ЧК-6 movement, I believe..........I'm just going to stop posting because clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about


It is a Type-1!


----------



## Lokifish

John Bowring said:


> I didn't want to post this because I already feel bad about it. Have mercy on a novice who thinks he may have been conned.
> 
> Or, better, tell me all is well.


Seeing it could be one of three different models, what was it sold as? Amphibia 020, Amphibia 420, or Komandirskie Type 92x?


----------



## John Bowring

Lokifish said:


> Seeing it could be one of three different models, what was it sold as? Amphibia 020, Amphibia 420, or Komandirskie Type 92x?


It was sold to me as a Soviet-era, 1985-1989, Vostok Amphibia. The model/case number was not mentioned and I did not know to ask. However, I have since only seen that dial on Komandirskie watches and wonder if the movement was swapped out of a Komandirskie into this "Amphibian." Any thoughts? Does the movement look legit? P

I don't mean to be paranoid but my doubts started when I read a number of harsh comments about this seller here on WUS.


----------



## kgo

I think that's what happened. It's not an automatic, there's no rotor. I think Amphibias from that era would only be manual wind in some anti-magnetics where they've got a copper disc instead?



John Bowring said:


> It was sold to me as a Soviet-era, 1985-1989, Vostok Amphibia. The model/case number was not mentioned and I did not know to ask. However, I have since only seen that dial on Komandirskie watches and wonder if the movement was swapped out of a Komandirskie into this "Amphibian." Any thoughts? Does the movement look legit? P
> 
> I don't mean to be paranoid but my doubts started when I read a number of harsh comments about this seller here on WUS.


----------



## schnurrp

John Bowring said:


> It was sold to me as a Soviet-era, 1985-1989, Vostok Amphibia. The model/case number was not mentioned and I did not know to ask. However, I have since only seen that dial on Komandirskie watches and wonder if the movement was swapped out of a Komandirskie into this "Amphibian." Any thoughts? Does the movement look legit? P
> 
> I don't mean to be paranoid but my doubts started when I read a number of harsh comments about this seller here on WUS.


There were many of these short run dials made by Vostok, many with an Islamic theme. I think you will have a hard time proving its authenticity one way or another unless another collector or two post identical ones.

Komandirskie dials always have the date window so I don't think it's a komandirskie dial. Also the majority of amphibians from that time had the arrow hour hand. And finally I would expect to see lume dots at each number on an amphibian dial.

Don't feel bad. Does it run good? There are some good parts there. You can buy new dials and hands on ebay.

If you're afraid of feeling bad after the sale post your choice, for criticism, before the sale.


----------



## Lokifish

John Bowring said:


> It was sold to me as a Soviet-era, 1985-1989, Vostok Amphibia. The model/case number was not mentioned and I did not know to ask. However, I have since only seen that dial on Komandirskie watches and wonder if the movement was swapped out of a Komandirskie into this "Amphibian." Any thoughts? Does the movement look legit? P
> 
> I don't mean to be paranoid but my doubts started when I read a number of harsh comments about this seller here on WUS.


It going to be one of the three models I mentioned, none of which were produced until the 90s or later. I'll do this in model versions;

*Amphibia 020 (1992 - ???)- *Wrong bezel, wrong hour hand, possibly wrong movement (unmarked denotes transition era movement), missing anti-magnetic shield
*Amphibia 420 (**mid/late '90s **- ???)- *Wrong bezel, wrong hour hand, wrong case back, wrong movement (should be 2416 automatic), missing anti-magnetic shield
*(not likely) Komandirskie Type 92x early version** (mid/late '90s - ???)- *Wrong case back, wrong crown, wrong movement (should be 2416 automatic)

*The dial-* The dial is open to interpretation. The dial is Soviet era, so except for the 020, the dial would definitely be incorrect. The problem is Vostok is known for custom dial batches that, short of a passport, are not documented. Also, during the transition period, Vostok was known for using whatever parts they could find. The dial is however not what one would expect to see.

It's definitely not 85-89, and not correct in many aspects. If it was a bargain, $10USD or less, and has a healthy movement, it does give you the opportunity to make it "yours" with a dial swap, different hands, different bezel. If it was not a bargain, I'd request at least a partial refund or return it.

edit-
schnurrp, I have a 'dirskie or two that lack date windows. One of which is the black/blue sub dial with only Komandirskie on it. But in general, you're dead on about the date window.


----------



## John Bowring

Thanks for the expert analysis and advice. I am disappointed, but I will get over it. I live 8044km from the merchant (I just checked), and would need to return it registered post or courier at my cost for more than the watch is probably worth, so I am not going to return it.

After it arrives I will find a good franken-worthy nato strap and wear it as a reminder to be more careful with my Vostok collection (my other one is new) in the future. 

BTW, I never knew what a "franken" was until I encoutered Russian watches on ebay. Vocab and watch lessens all in one! lol

This thread is a wonderful resource, but I notice that many of us only find it after we've fallen into the hands of franken-fiends!


----------



## schnurrp

Lokifish said:


> It going to be one of the three models I mentioned, none of which were produced until the 90s or later. I'll do this in model versions;
> 
> *Amphibia 020 (1992 - ???)- *Wrong bezel, wrong hour hand, possibly wrong movement (unmarked denotes transition era movement), missing anti-magnetic shield
> *Amphibia 420 (**mid/late '90s **- ???)- *Wrong bezel, wrong hour hand, wrong case back, wrong movement (should be 2416 automatic), missing anti-magnetic shield
> *(not likely) Komandirskie Type 92x early version** (mid/late '90s - ???)- *Wrong case back, wrong crown, wrong movement (should be 2416 automatic)
> 
> *The dial-* The dial is open to interpretation. The dial is Soviet era, so except for the 020, the dial would definitely be incorrect. The problem is Vostok is known for custom dial batches that, short of a passport, are not documented. Also, during the transition period, Vostok was known for using whatever parts they could find. The dial is however not what one would expect to see.
> 
> It's definitely not 85-89, and not correct in many aspects. If it was a bargain, $10USD or less, and has a healthy movement, it does give you the opportunity to make it "yours" with a dial swap, different hands, different bezel. If it was not a bargain, I'd request at least a partial refund or return it.
> 
> edit-
> schnurrp, I have a 'dirskie or two that lack date windows. One of which is the black/blue sub dial with only Komandirskie on it. But in general, you're dead on about the date window.


Yes, I suppose one should never use "always" when discussing Russian watches, however, when discussing "komandirskies" above I meant the watch type not the dial name. For me, a komandirskie watch must have a 2414 movement with date function, thus a date window dial, and a chrome or TiN plated brass case, not stainless steel. Not all dials with "komandirskie" on them appeared in komandirskie watches. Here's a picture of a 020 type amphibian from Michelle's collection with a 2409 movement, stainless steel case, and a komandirskie-theme dial. I consider this an amphibian. These observations apply to soviet-era watches only. Anything after that is not of interest to me.


----------



## mroatman

Lol965 said:


> It is a Type-1!


Thanks for the clarification, Luís! I was using this post by Lucidor as a reference, as his movement (which looks almost the same) is marked ЧК-6. I won't pretend I actually know the difference, though.


----------



## historyguy

EDIT: I was incorrect in labeling this as a "Type-1" as this would rather be a ЧК-6 movement, I believe..........I'm just going to stop posting because clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about [/QUOTE]

Thanks for the input...I'd like to have more before making a decision...Polmax, Geoff, or anyone else out there with an opinion? I agree with the comments about the dial in part and had somewhat the same thoughts, though I notice that the authentic examples posted in this thread also have very clean dials. The case of the watch certainly shows wear and scratches. I am also curious about the movement markings....the seller identifies this as being produced in 4th quarter, 1946 from the writing below the jewels notation...is this the correct time period for this watch, and how unusual is it that there is no factory marking on the movement. Mroatman, you state that this is not unusual...any one else care to comment.


----------



## Lokifish

schnurrp said:


> Yes, I suppose one should never use "always" when discussing Russian watches, however, when discussing "komandirskies" above I meant the watch type not the dial name. For me, a komandirskie watch must have a 2414 movement with date function, thus a date window dial, and a chrome or TiN plated brass case, not stainless steel. Not all dials with "komandirskie" on them appeared in komandirskie watches. Here's a picture of a 020 type amphibian from Michelle's collection with a 2409 movement, stainless steel case, and a komandirskie-theme dial. I consider this an amphibian. These observations apply to soviet-era watches only. Anything after that is not of interest to me.


Don't get me wrong. Amphibias with 'dirskie(ish) dials most certainly exist. In most cases they are slightly different than their 'dirskie counterparts though. The one you posted has a different layout and additional text, the 'dirskie version doesn't, but adds the date window. The one I posted is an odd ball, it looks like the 'dirskie version but lacks the date window. It also shows up in the books, and elsewhere, on everything from Amphibias to civilian models. However, it shows up nowhere in catalog scans.


----------



## Luis965

mroatman said:


> Thanks for the clarification, Luís! I was using this post by Lucidor as a reference, as his movement (which looks almost the same) is marked ЧК-6. I won't pretend I actually know the difference, though.


Type 1 is a more specific designation for the movements derived from Hampden-Dueber.

ЧК-6 is more generic and based on the size of the movement, so you can have the same designation for, at least, three different movements - Type 1; based on LIP 40 (ZIM Watches) and based on Cortebert 616 (Molnija Watches)


----------



## mroatman

Lol965 said:


> Type 1 is a more specific designation for the movements derived from Hampden-Dueber.
> 
> ЧК-6 is more generic and based on the size of the movement, so you can have the same designation for, at least, three different movements - Type 1; based on LIP 40 (ZIM Watches) and based on Cortebert 616 (Molnija Watches)


Precious little bits of information.

So would I be correct in saying this watch could be called a Type-1 ЧК-6?


----------



## beyonder

Hello all, need your opinion on this piece. Looking to purchase my first vintage watch but I'm new to this whole watch scene. So I need some help to identify the watch's authenticity.

Not sure if the dial has been replaced but it seems like it. Might be wrong.


----------



## mroatman

beyonder said:


> Hello all, need your opinion on this piece. Looking to purchase my first vintage watch but I'm new to this whole watch scene. So I need some help to identify the watch's authenticity.
> 
> Not sure if the dial has been replaced but it seems like it. Might be wrong.


Hi beyonder and welcome to the forums! You are posting in the Russian section, and I doubt many of us will be able to help you here. You might have better luck posting your question here: Omega Fake Busters.


----------



## LeatherMan64

Hello to all Russian watch gurus! I was trolling the Fleabay looking to add an Amphibia to my accumulation and came upon this one,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Vostok-Amphibia-watches-Russian-Mechanical-Automatic-Fast-Shipping-/271913247615?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4f4ae37f

It was inexpensive enough that I decided to snap it up. So, experts, how does she look?


----------



## Lokifish

LeatherMan64 said:


> Hello to all Russian watch gurus! I was trolling the Fleabay looking to add an Amphibia to my accumulation and came upon this one,
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Vostok-Amphibia-watches-Russian-Mechanical-Automatic-Fast-Shipping-/271913247615?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4f4ae37f
> 
> It was inexpensive enough that I decided to snap it up. So, experts, how does she look?


Type 470's were 2409 and 2409A only, so automatic would make it the wrong movement, wrong case back. The bezel, hands, crown all look proper. Can't say with 100% certainty that the dial is legit. I know that specific design, in at least three color variations, show up in the 90 catalog on the 470 and the 320. Problem is the catalog scans are not that great.

On a side note. I have thought about putting an auto movement in my 470/320. Although not legit, would consider it a nice little upgrade to what's already one of my favorite models.


----------



## LeatherMan64

> Type 470's were 2409 and 2409A only, so automatic would make it the wrong movement, wrong case back. The bezel, hands, crown all look proper. Can't say with 100% certainty that the dial is legit. I know that specific design, in at least three color variations, show up in the 90 catalog on the 470 and the 320. Problem is the catalog scans are not that great.


Cool! Thanks so much. I didn't know the 470 cased ones came only as hand winders. I'm wondering whether or not the description may be 100% accurate, I've lucked out before and bough older watches that were misidentified as automatic, not working needs battery (when they were mechs in need of being wound), etc. Fingers crossed that it's an original, unmolested model. If it is auto, though, that won't bother me too much. It's probably a swap I'd consider doing myself, anyway. Thanks for the input and info!


----------



## schnurrp

LeatherMan64 said:


> Cool! Thanks so much. I didn't know the 470 cased ones came only as hand winders. I'm wondering whether or not the description may be 100% accurate, I've lucked out before and bough older watches that were misidentified as automatic, not working needs battery (when they were mechs in need of being wound), etc. Fingers crossed that it's an original, unmolested model. If it is auto, though, that won't bother me too much. It's probably a swap I'd consider doing myself, anyway. Thanks for the input and info!


Seller says it's an automatic when all evidence shown is to the contrary (17 jewel count on dial instead of 21 and standard non-automatic back) and the one method for determining the movement action, a movement picture, is missing.


----------



## LeatherMan64

> Seller says it's an automatic when all evidence shown is to the contrary (17 jewel count on dial instead of 21 and standard non-automatic back) and the one method for determining the movement action, a movement picture, is missing.


Yeah, it's strange. Only way to find out is to take a peek when it shows up, I guess. I'll try to get a decent photo to post here when it arrives. I'm hoping it's not an auto jammed under that flat caseback or some strange franken movement. Would it be unheard of to find a 2414 with the date wheel removed, or would the dial feet (assuming that the dial is original) be too short or improperly placed?


----------



## Lokifish

LeatherMan64 said:


> Yeah, it's strange. Only way to find out is to take a peek when it shows up, I guess. I'll try to get a decent photo to post here when it arrives. I'm hoping it's not an auto jammed under that flat caseback or some strange franken movement. Would it be unheard of to find a 2414 with the date wheel removed, or would the dial feet (assuming that the dial is original) be too short or improperly placed?


The dials for the 24xx are interchangeable, so it could be anything under that dial. schnurrp might be right about that case back, I don't have access to a PC right now so I'm looking at it on a tiny 4.3in display.


----------



## schnurrp

Lokifish said:


> The dials for the 24xx are interchangeable, so it could be anything under that dial. schnurrp might be right about that case back, I don't have access to a PC right now so I'm looking at it on a tiny 4.3in display.


I'm just going by the presence of "shockproof" (Противоударный) written on the back where "automatic" (Автоматический) should be. I don't know if the dimensions of the backs are different but I would assume they are. The Vostok 2414 and 2416 movements can be stripped down to fit and function as a 2409. The cannon pinion and hour wheel are a bit longer to clear the date mechanism so they may have been replaced. If not, the hands may sit a bit higher above the dial. Dial feet should fit fine.


----------



## kev80e

Could I have your expert opinions on this gents. One that i really would like to have , if it's correct.
















It looks O.K to me but I know these get faked a lot.


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## elsoldemayo

I spotted this one the other day Kev. Dial, crown and movement all look ok. Only doubt would be the gold hands with silver case.


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## kev80e

elsoldemayo said:


> I spotted this one the other day Kev. Dial, crown and movement all look ok. Only doubt would be the gold hands with silver case.


Did wonder but have seen this before . Dashiell has one on his site. Will keep my eye on it , so much for no more this month.


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## elsoldemayo

kev80e said:


> Did wonder but have seen this before . Dashiell has one on his site. Will keep my eye on it , so much for no more this month.


Considering the condition of the dial and the current price I say a cheeky bid is called for... the way the red dot sweeps around it's orbit of the globe is a sight to behold ;-)


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Did wonder but have seen this before . Dashiell has one on his site. Will keep my eye on it , so much for no more this month.


I saw this one as well and I'm fairly certain it's not 100% genuine. As stated above, the case, crown, dial, and movement all look good. But the hands should be nickel-plated as specified in the 1960 catalog. There were likely Sputnik variations not specified in the 1960 catalog (i.e. the gold-plated variant), but I would only feel comfortable buying a black dial if it were in a chrome case with matching, silver-colored hands.

But that's not what intrigued me about this watch. The second hand here is unlike any other Sputnik second hand I've seen. For one, it's a bit shorter and doesn't quite reach the minute-track. But these unique second hands often have broken tips, which is what might have happened here. So no biggie. But the strangest thing for me is the little red Sputnik dot. It's smaller than any genuine examples I've seen. It's not a huge size difference, but just enough to raise my eyebrows. Is this the first in a new round of counterfeit watch parts? First dials, now hands? Hope not.

If the price is right and these things don't both you too much, then it's a rather nice example. But I would pass on this one.


----------



## kev80e

Thanks Dashiell , I can see what you mean now, this is why I checked first. I have seen gold hands in silver cases but as you said not with the black dial. I would never have spotted the smaller red dot and shorter hand, good eyes. Think I will pass on it ,these things would bug me.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Thanks Dashiell , I can see what you mean now, this is why I checked first. I have seen gold hands in silver cases but as you said not with the black dial. I would never have spotted the smaller red dot and shorter hand, good eyes. Think I will pass on it ,these things would bug me.


Yes, you are correct. According to the 1960 catalog, the white-dial variant should have gilded hands, while the black-dial version should have nickel hands:

*Design CHN-666K*
_Housing chrome 35 mm; stainless steel lid with a thread for connection with the housing._
_Plexiglass spherical shape._
_SILVER lacquered dial with partial digitization: 3, 6, 9, 12. The remaining digits replaced kami knowledge in the form of a rocket. With sixty minute scale divisions designated points. In the center of the globe IMAGE APPENDIX: drying gray blue of the water, the territory of the USSR red, parallels and meridians blue. Around the globe circle (orbit of the satellite) red line in a break - word; "Sputnik" and "Made in the USSR." The numbers, signs, and inscriptions of the scale interval on the dial gold._
_Arrows gilded kopeobraznye. On the second hand drive (satellite) red.__
*￼￼Design CHN-667K*__
The dial is black. Numbers, punctuation, the scale and the inscriptions on the dial white._
_Arrows nickel._
_For the rest, similar to the design of CHN-666K.
_
That's obviously a horrendous Google Translation, but you can get the gist of it.

The second hand is still a mystery to me. Maybe it is authentic? Maybe I'm just seeing things? I hope someone more knowledgable can chime in.


----------



## emoscambio

kev80e said:


> Could I have your expert opinions on this gents. One that i really would like to have , if it's correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks O.K to me but I know these get faked a lot.


 The word "СПУТНИК" is quite low, not centred on the line.


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> The word "СПУТНИК" is quite low, not centred on the line.


So is mine. Are you saying it's a fake dial? It lacks all the telltale signs of the usual Sputnik fakes, but I won't pretend I've seen them all.


----------



## saywhatnow

Wondering about this - geniune or franken?









On ebay:
RARE Russian Mechanical Watch RAKETA SP 1 Blue 19 Jewels 24 Hours Dial | eBay


----------



## Arizone

saywhatnow said:


> Wondering about this - geniune or franken?
> 
> On ebay:
> RARE Russian Mechanical Watch RAKETA SP 1 Blue 19 Jewels 24 Hours Dial | eBay


it's hard to say without seeing a picture of the movement: either a genuine 24 hour 2623.H or a converted 12 hour 2609.HA. Likely the latter with those.


----------



## schnurrp

saywhatnow said:


> Wondering about this - geniune or franken?
> 
> View attachment 4544578
> 
> 
> On ebay:
> RARE Russian Mechanical Watch RAKETA SP 1 Blue 19 Jewels 24 Hours Dial | eBay


It's hard to say with these often-seen variations but if you use appearance in a Raketa catalog as proof of authenticity then it's not authentic. Someone may be able to say they bought it in soviet times from a Raketa store with papers, etc. but I've never seen this provenance. Also not included in the most complete and trustworthy online collections. Three strikes!


----------



## historyguy

[QUOTE
But that's not what intrigued me about this watch. The second hand here is unlike any other Sputnik second hand I've seen. For one, it's a bit shorter and doesn't quite reach the minute-track. But these unique second hands often have broken tips, which is what might have happened here. So no biggie. But the strangest thing for me is the little red Sputnik dot. It's smaller than any genuine examples I've seen. It's not a huge size difference, but just enough to raise my eyebrows. 

My question on this watch would also be about the second hand...I'd like to point out that Mark Gordon's USSR Time website shows four variants of this watch, both white and black dial, and only one has the red dot second hand...one of the black dials he depicts has a solid red secondhand, while another variant has a red arrow tip second hand. Sooo...the question is, were different second hands used, or perhaps the red dot version was brittle and often broke, leading to replacements? I'm certainly no expert, but Mark is, and I doubt he would have fakes on his site.


----------



## Danin_tu

Hi guys, any thoughts on this piece? It'sy first "legit" Vostok, but I'm still a bit curious .


----------



## mroatman

historyguy said:


> My question on this watch would also be about the second hand...I'd like to point out that Mark Gordon's USSR Time website shows four variants of this watch, both white and black dial, and only one has the red dot second hand...one of the black dials he depicts has a solid red secondhand, while another variant has a red arrow tip second hand. Sooo...the question is, were different second hands used, or perhaps the red dot version was brittle and often broke, leading to replacements? I'm certainly no expert, but Mark is, and I doubt he would have fakes on his site.


Mark Gordon's collection is incredibly impressive and truly unique for numerous reasons, and I think most would agree he is a true expert in the field of Soviet/Russian watches. However, there are numerous instances of imperfect watches on his website, at least according to catalog records. I wouldn't call these "fakes", but rather "incompletes". As I understand, Mark presents his watches as he found them, rather than making a concerted effort to restore them to their genuine original condition. This is no fault to his collection, but important to keep in mind when trying to collect fully authentic pieces. As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single online collection that is without fault, even considering the most impressive collections from Phil, Antonov, and of course, Mark.

The safest, most black-and-white method (pun intended) for identifying if a watch is fully original is to use catalog records. There are several good websites for this, such as here and here. According to the 1960 catalog, which is the only catalog to my knowledge that mentions the 1MWF Sputnik watches, "on the second hand drive (satellite) red." That's obviously a poor computer translation, but leaves little doubt in my mind as to whether other second hands are valid for this watch. There have been prior discussions about this with mixed opinions. To me, the dial only makes sense with the special Sputnik dot on the second hand. I would not buy a 1MWF Sputnik without it, though they are plentiful and not cheap. Why spend a lot of money on a watch if you're always going to be questioning the authenticity? This, to me, makes it a no-brainer.

I think you are correct in that the red-dot second hand is often replaced. I don't know if these were extra fragile and prone to breaking or (more likely) simply lost over time. I know no other watch which had this same second hand, making it quite unique. Combine this with the fact that most examples are now nearing 55 years of age or more, and you've got a recipe for lots of "incomplete" watches.

As to the example in question, I'm beginning to believe it might be original. But it is unlike other genuine examples I've seen. Another possibility is that the second hand may have been taken from a similar Poljot 2409 or another watch with a lumed dot on the second hand:









Painting the lumed dot red and using it on a Sputnik seems like an easy way to fool unsuspecting buyers. It would also explain why the Sputnik dot is smaller than on other genuine examples I've seen. Bear in mind I am completely uncertain about this. I honestly don't know. It just looks a little fishy to me.

For those wanting to follow along, the watch in question comes from this listing: 
Sputnik of 1MWF Dial Is Original in Average to Good Condition | eBay


----------



## Lokifish

Danin_tu said:


> Hi guys, any thoughts on this piece? It'sy first "legit" Vostok, but I'm still a bit curious .


Nice type 33x with an uncommon dial. Congrats. Do you have any shots of the movement?


----------



## Danin_tu

Hi Lokifish! I am yet to disassemble the back plate as I am more or less afraid of the findings . The watch itself has a bit of an issue with the time keeping - moving around with about +/- 3-4 minutes per day, thus I was about to get it visit a doctor . Once there, I will take pictures of the movement.


----------



## mroatman

What say ye, fine brethren? A Chistopol Kirovskie? No way, right? But how could Mr. Frank N print so well with all that texture on the dial? Curious.

The movement, unsurprisingly, is the 2809B, commonly found in Almaz watches. Everything about this watch, in fact, screams Almaz, except for the printing on the dial and the crown...


----------



## schnurrp

Fishy, in my opinion. This one was not designed to be printed on the textured part of the dial and "Kirovskie" is too big for the space left without texture for "Almaz" on the original and jewel count is not centered in its space. Hands are also wrong. I don't know where it came from but I doubt Chistopol, looking like that.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Fishy, in my opinion. This one was not designed to be printed on the textured part of the dial and "Kirovskie" is too big for the space left without texture for "Almaz" on the original and jewel count is not centered in its space. Hands are also wrong. I don't know where it came from but I doubt Chistopol, looking like that.


Right, I agree, definitely fishy. And besides, Kirovskie was only a product of 1MWF, right?

I definitely noticed the printing outside of the flat, non-textured space, but Sergey has a Vostok with similar "out of bounds" printing and I think the consensus was that this is legit, though I still remain skeptical. The printing over the texture just looks weird:









Are you sure about the hands being incorrect? I haven't found this one in the catalogs, but I believe they are right. Your photo seems to include a hand set taken directly from a Volna. The second hand should definitely be longer than the stubby red one in your photo as the minute track is along the perimeter of this dial, unlike some other Almaz dials (where the stubbier second hand _would_ be correct). Here is how I believe the watch should look in all its Almaz glory, save for maybe a GP case instead of the chrome. But again, without a catalog, I don't know...


----------



## mroatman

Here's an example that just showed up from who I regard as a highly trustworthy seller. Notice that "18 jewels" is not centered, interesting! This also leads me to think the chrome case is authentic and should not be gold-plated as I suggested before.


----------



## schnurrp

Another possibility I forgot I owned:









These slim rice grain hands fit the dial well, in my opinion.

Also in this catalog starting on this page several 2809 hand sets appear to have second hands that don't reach the minute marks: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5814460996577831858&oid=113098239036073221216

An example:


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Another possibility I forgot I owned:
> 
> These slim rice grain hands fit the dial well, in my opinion.
> 
> Also in this catalog starting on this page several 2809 hand sets appear to have second hands that don't reach the minute marks: https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5814460996577831858&oid=113098239036073221216
> 
> An example:


Haha, you might be a watch collector if....you have so many you forget which ones you own. I'm guilty, too. The #1 use of my website is for me to quickly cross-reference which watches I already have before making duplicate purchases.

Ah yes, those hands could be correct. I have another Almaz with those same rice-grain hands. So it seems there were at least three legitimate hand sets for Almaz watches: triangular with lume, simple baton, and rice-grain.

About the short second hand, of course I cannot argue with the facts, but I'll default to something you said in response to the "fake shadow" numbers on that Chistopol Sputnik: What were they thinking?


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> The #1 use of my website is for me to quickly cross-reference which watches I already have before making duplicate purchases.


Yes, this has always been my number one reason for considering a website or some other digital organization of my collection, too. If I could ever figure out how to construct a Picasa web album of Picasa web albums like Antonov's presentation of the catalogs, with each watch contained in its own album, I would be satisfied. Anyone know how to do this?

As to the short second hands, unfortunately for collectors a fair amount of soviet watch design and construction, at the end of the day, remains "ad hoc".


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Yes, this has always been my number one reason for considering a website or some other digital organization of my collection, too. If I could ever figure out how to construct a Picasa web album of Picasa web albums like Antonov's presentation of the catalogs, with each watch contained in its own album, I would be satisfied. Anyone know how to do this?
> 
> As to the short second hands, unfortunately for collectors a fair amount of soviet watch design and construction, at the end of the day, remains "ad hoc".


There are a number of collections I wish to see digitized, but to be honest, Paul, yours tops the list. Pretty pretty please!!

It seems Picasa has never allowed sub-albums. A google search revealed countless threads of people requesting this option with no response from Picasa. Is the reason you want this feature so that your personal photos aren't made public? If so, you can always make those albums private (or only viewable with a specific link) while leaving watch albums viewable to the public. Just an idea.

Another option would be to imitate Antonov's arrangement exactly by using Google+. Google owns Picasa, so the transition should be pretty straightforward:

https://support.google.com/picasa/answer/1321133?hl=en

What else can I do to convince you this is possible, easy, and totally worth it?


----------



## mroatman

One final suggestion. The free website builder I used (WIX.com) was surprisingly easy to work with. The only time-consuming part was taking all those dang photos! I am no programmer, and the idea of "building my own website" totally intimidated me. But Wix really makes it a piece of cake. Plus, you've got an experienced user here who'd be happy to help you out


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> There are a number of collections I wish to see digitized, but to be honest, Paul, yours tops the list. Pretty pretty please!!
> 
> It seems Picasa has never allowed sub-albums. A google search revealed countless threads of people requesting this option with no response from Picasa. Is the reason you want this feature so that your personal photos aren't made public? If so, you can always make those albums private (or only viewable with a specific link) while leaving watch albums viewable to the public. Just an idea.
> 
> Another option would be to imitate Antonov's arrangement exactly by using Google+. Google owns Picasa, so the transition should be pretty straightforward:
> 
> https://support.google.com/picasa/answer/1321133?hl=en
> 
> What else can I do to convince you this is possible, easy, and totally worth it?


That's flattering, Dashiel, but I think you'd be disappointed. Now if I included all watches owned in the past for which I have good pictures and also those presently owned it may get a little more interesting.

I have tried Google+ and I don't really like it. I noticed that Antonov is a member of Google+ but wasn't sure whether Google+ was necessary for an organization of his type.

I have recently figured out how to post a single picture album without linking to the rest of my albums. I'm amazed this is not as easy to do as it should be.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Now if I included all watches owned in the past for which I have good pictures and also those presently owned it may get a little more interesting..


You better, mister!



schnurrp said:


> I have recently figured out how to post a single picture album without linking to the rest of my albums. I'm amazed this is not as easy to do as it should be.


My understanding is that Google has turned its resources away from Picasa and toward Google+ Photos. Picasa is kept around for veteran users, but doesn't seem to be updated or supported nearly as well as it should be.

Another option is flicker, which could result in an arrangement like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157632643911744/

I know there are several WUS members who use flickr with great results:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums
https://www.flickr.com/photos/marctibu/sets/72157644083154347
https://www.flickr.com/photos/vaurien/sets/

But it sounds like finding a Picasa solution would be best if that's what you already use.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> You better, mister!
> 
> My understanding is that Google has turned its resources away from Picasa and toward Google+ Photos. Picasa is kept around for veteran users, but doesn't seem to be updated or supported nearly as well as it should be.
> 
> Another option is flicker, which could result in an arrangement like this:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157632643911744/
> 
> I know there are several WUS members who use flickr with great results:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/marctibu/sets/72157644083154347
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/vaurien/sets/
> 
> But it sounds like finding a Picasa solution would be best if that's what you already use.


Thanks for that, Dashiell. I am comfortable with Picasa and find its photo editing provides just enough capability so that I need not leave Picasa to complete an album. But the Flickr examples you provided look promising and I will be looking into Flickr when I have the time.


----------



## Arizone

I got a great deal on two Raketas and a Poljot.

I was curious how wabi-sabi Latin cities are on a Cyrillic-dial World Time. I've seen some examples but I'm wondering if someone has a more solid answer.
Second, I was wondering if it's possible to confirm what type of 24-hour movement this is without disassembling it. It's not marked and has an odd brass plate instead. 2623.H?


----------



## schnurrp

Arizone said:


> I got a great deal on two Raketas and a Poljot.
> 
> I was curious how wabi-sabi Latin cities are on a Cyrillic-dial World Time. I've seen some examples but I'm wondering if someone has a more solid answer.
> Second, I was wondering if it's possible to confirm what type of 24-hour movement this is without disassembling it. It's not marked and has an odd brass plate instead. 2623.H?


Sorry Arizone but that one has a case from a perpetual calendar and all the 24 hour world times pictured in the catalogs have a black bezel. Good looking anyway but I would be very surprised if the movement is authentic and not a re-configured 12 hour movement. Hope the crystal is correct, it runs good and you didn't pay much.

Main bridge of the movement is missing the shockproofing for the pallet fork as usually found on the most modern Raketa 26xxs.


----------



## Arizone

schnurrp said:


> Sorry Arizone but that one has a case from a perpetual calendar and all the 24 hour world times pictured in the catalogs have a black bezel. Good looking anyway but I would be very surprised if the movement is authentic and not a re-configured 12 hour movement. Hope the crystal is correct, it runs good and you didn't pay much.
> 
> Main bridge of the movement is missing the shockproofing for the pallet fork as usually found on the most modern Raketa 26xxs.


Thank you. I wasn't really paying attention. I now noticed the other has the wrong hands as well. These two Raketas were mostly bonuses because the Poljot alone is what made the listing worth it. Which, for the record, also looks franken, but is still worth enough because it's a 3133. I wasn't planning on keeping them.


----------



## schnurrp

Arizone said:


> Thank you. I wasn't really paying attention. I now noticed the other has the wrong hands as well. These two Raketas were mostly bonuses because the Poljot alone is what made the listing worth it. Which, for the record, also looks franken, but is still worth enough because it's a 3133. I wasn't planning on keeping them.


There might be some good parts there. The dials and hands look to be in good condition.


----------



## OrangeOrange

The seller claims that the watch was made by the First Moscow Watch factory. I however, don't see the signature on the dial. It just says Made in USSR (cryllic). The movement has the First Moscow Watch factory stamp.


----------



## mroatman

OrangeOrange said:


> The seller claims that the watch was made by the First Moscow Watch factory. I however, don't see the signature on the dial. It just says Made in USSR (cryllic). The movement has the First Moscow Watch factory stamp.


Pobeda dials do not require the 1MWF signature to be authentic. This dial is 100% original, in my opinion. However, the hour hand has been replaced and the crystal is pretty awful with a considerable amount of distortion at the perimeter. The crown is also not pillow-shaped as in the catalog, but I believe these Pobedas were produced with both "regular" crowns and pillow crowns, so I wouldn't be too bothered by this.


----------



## DavidUK

What is the expert opinion on this one?


----------



## mroatman

DavidUK said:


> What is the expert opinion on this one?


Not original, in my opinion. The condition of the case and crown does not match the condition of the flawless (repainted) dial.


----------



## emoscambio

DavidUK said:


> What is the expert opinion on this one?


I'd say, fine.


----------



## schnurrp

DavidUK said:


> What is the expert opinion on this one?
> 
> View attachment 4629994


It's hard to tell from a single picture like that but there is a another similar one for sale on ebay now offered by a seller that is known for "restorations", although some of his offerings are authentic, in my opinion. The existence of these two examples make it more likely the black & blue one is authentic but it's hard to say for sure.


----------



## mroatman

Ah, interesting. I've never seen this dial before and my knee-jerk was absoLUTEly fake. Seeing another dial with a similar design tells me I'm probably wrong.


----------



## DavidUK

I think this Raketa in black is stunning so hoping not tampered with. The catalogue appears to show this model although the image isn't all that clear for a thorough comparison.


----------



## OrangeOrange

Thanks mroatman, I decided against the Pobeda I wanted a 100% original watch. How is this one? The lume/paint on the 3 is missing. I already pulled the trigger on this one.


----------



## emoscambio

OrangeOrange said:


> Thanks mroatman, I decided against the Pobeda I wanted a 100% original watch. How is this one? The lume/paint on the 3 is missing. I already pulled the trigger on this one.


IMHO, it was a wise choice, since this one is 20 years older and just better all around. Everything is OK, the lume drop was probably lost while cleaning the dial or from a broken crystal.

However, think that the watch is only 29.6 mm diameter and relatively thick. You'd better look for a black Bund style strap to give it more presence., unless you are a lady, in which case a thin and straight black strap with silver buckle will be fine. IIRC, you will need a 16mm size.
Red stitches would make it a "wow!"


----------



## dutchassasin

Spotted this swing lug 350 amphibian with the "black" rare bezel. I have only seen this one with cyrilic dial and caseback. Yet this one has export dial and caseback. Could it be that its a normal export model with added bezel?
Im just curious and have no intention of purchasing this piece, as a poor student i simply cant afford it.


----------



## sq100

dutchassasin said:


> Spotted this swing lug 350 amphibian with the "black" rare bezel. I have only seen this one with cyrilic dial and caseback. Yet this one has export dial and caseback. Could it be that its a normal export model with added bezel?
> Im just curious and have no intention of purchasing this piece, as a poor student i simply cant afford it.


I believe it is real and Ham2 has a nicer version in his collection.


----------



## Ham2

sq100 said:


> I believe it is real and Ham2 has a nicer version in his collection.


 I saw that one and was tempted but even though it is the rare bezel, the dial and hands looked pretty rough. I was a wee bit suspicious of that one since I have no idea if that bezel was ever found on the export models (I do not recall ever seeing that combination - if anyone knows otherwise, please illuminate).


----------



## kReaktor

Pobeda Zavoda TTK-1 with an restored Dial Is it a franken?.


----------



## schnurrp

kReaktor said:


> Pobeda Zavoda TTK-1 with an restored Dial Is it a franken?.
> 
> View attachment 4647530
> View attachment 4647626


Needs ttk-1 movement pictured below to even be considered, in my opinion.


----------



## Shai1

Purchased this off eBay. Seems to be genuine 2623.H movement, however the face and combination of face and cities bezel is not something I have seen on any other listing nor old Raketa catalogues. Your thoughts appreciated.


----------



## dutchassasin

The raketa dial is not legit, why would a company misspell their own name.


----------



## Underbergpaw

Hi Comrades

Recently bought this Raketa RAKETA Polar Antarctic Submariner 24 Hours Cal 2623 H USSR Soviet Russian Watch | eBay after months of reading various threads on the russian forum.
I wish Your opinion whether its genuine or franken/fake.
Appreciate any explanation (especially if You find it a fake) from You experts.

Underbergpaw


----------



## kReaktor

dutchassasin said:


> The raketa dial is not legit, why would a company misspell their own name.


I think m is an t in cyrillic handwriting.


----------



## schnurrp

Underbergpaw said:


> Hi Comrades
> 
> Recently bought this Raketa RAKETA Polar Antarctic Submariner 24 Hours Cal 2623 H USSR Soviet Russian Watch | eBay after months of reading various threads on the russian forum.
> I wish Your opinion whether its genuine or franken/fake.
> Appreciate any explanation (especially if You find it a fake) from You experts.
> 
> Underbergpaw


I lean toward authentic on this one although I can't find a catalog picture of the blue inner dial example with the black hands. There are conflicting examples in two good collections, one with black hands and one with hands matching the color of the numbers on the inner dial. The chrome case material is an authentic variation, I think.























More authentic than not, I think, and welcome to the forum.


----------



## dutchassasin

Im talking about the watch of Shai1, the one of Underbergpaw looks ok.

Yeah my mistake about the pakema but that doesnt change the fact that the dial is a possible fake. Printing looks crude in comparison with genuine dials. 
Its either export: Paketa or Raketa. And for domestic: Old logo or Cyrilic pakema but with a rocket arch coming out of the P and above the letters. Just like the arch on the new logo:


----------



## DavidUK

If say a watch had a broken hand which was then replaced with hands of a different colour to the original, that certainly woudn't qualify the watch as a fake or indeed a 'franken' in my eyes. It wouldn't concern me whatsoever and really no different from replacing a bezel on an Amphibia as many do.


----------



## Underbergpaw

Thx for prompt response.
Seems like a good idea to read all Your good advice in advance before bidding on a watch.
Wasn't aware about the matching colors of the hands and the numbers on the dial though.
Thx again schnurr


----------



## emoscambio

dutchassasin said:


> The raketa dial is not legit, why would a company misspell their own name.


Misspelling what?


----------



## Shai1

Underbergpaw said:


> Thx for prompt response.
> Seems like a good idea to read all Your good advice in advance before bidding on a watch.
> Wasn't aware about the matching colors of the hands and the numbers on the dial though.
> Thx again schnurr


I own the Submariner 24 hour. If its genuine the mechanism keeps PERFECT time, never more than a few seconds +/- per day. Its a great watch.
One thing I would prefer is that they have the original low profile dome crystal. I failed to take note of mine when I bought it, and the crystal on mine is a generic high dome replacement, which detracts a little from the aesthetic of what is otherwise a really beautiful piece. Hard to tell from eBay photos unless you look closely. The original blue hands look better in my opinion. Most pieces on eBay have this.


----------



## Shai1

dutchassasin said:


> Im talking about the watch of Shai1, the one of Underbergpaw looks ok.
> 
> Yeah my mistake about the pakema but that doesnt change the fact that the dial is a possible fake. Printing looks crude in comparison with genuine dials.
> Its either export: Paketa or Raketa. And for domestic: Old logo or Cyrilic pakema but with a rocket arch coming out of the P and above the letters. Just like the arch on the new logo:


Thanks for your advice. I think you are right, other than this particular seller I have not come across any other Raketa with logo in this font, all the other cyrillic handwriting m/t use the elongated P character as you said. As it happens the watch keeps poor time and minute & hour hand stop intermittently even while second hand continues. I guess its a cobbled together piece, even though the movement 2623.h appears genuine.


----------



## kev80e

Spotted this on ebay , and as I have been wanting to add one to my collection for a while grabbed it. I picked it because most I've seen , in fact all I think , have smooth dials unlike this. What do you think , ok or not?


----------



## Geoff Adams

Hello comrades, I would like to have your opinions on the dial of this Poljot Alarm. It doesn't look right to me, very clean for the age the watch is supposed to be. Any critique on this piece would be gratefully received...


----------



## mroatman

Geoff Adams said:


> Hello comrades, I would like to have your opinions on the dial of this Poljot Alarm. It doesn't look right to me, very clean for the age the watch is supposed to be. Any critique on this piece would be gratefully received...


I don't know much about these, but I'd wager that's almost certainly a new dial. It has the same speckled, silvery, "shimmery" color as other replacement dials. An original would have a matte white base, I believe. I also think the font on the numbers around the perimeter is incorrect (check out the number 4 and compare it to an original dial), but I can't tell how much of that is due to distortion caused by the crystal. I would pass on this one, Geoff!


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> I don't know much about these, but I'd wager that's almost certainly a new dial. It has the same speckled, silvery, "shimmery" color as other replacement dials. An original would have a matte white base, I believe. I also think the font on the numbers around the perimeter is incorrect (check out the number 4 and compare it to an original dial), but I can't tell how much of that is due to distortion caused by the crystal. I would pass on this one, Geoff!


Fake dial, for sale in Russia, Poland, and so on...


----------



## Geoff Adams

Thank you very much gentlemen - basically my thoughts, but I wanted to run it past some knowledgeable comrades before I made my final decision. Very grateful!


----------



## Ham2

Geoff Adams said:


> Thank you very much gentlemen - basically my thoughts, but I wanted to run it past some knowledgeable comrades before I made my final decision. Very grateful!


 Easiest way to spot these is to look at the upper surface of the indices where the meet the side of the indices. The fake dial are curved as if oilseed. They should be flat/sharp.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> Spotted this on ebay , and as I have been wanting to add one to my collection for a while grabbed it. I picked it because most I've seen , in fact all I think , have smooth dials unlike this. What do you think , ok or not?
> 
> View attachment 4772114
> 
> 
> View attachment 4772122


I think it has to be okay, kev80. What else could it be? It has the correct case shape and crown position, correct dial organization with Luch and Quartz where they should be and correct small spade second hand (many have large spade). In addition to the asymmetric pattern relief the dial has numbers instead of the hour bars and minute marks as usually seen and the hour and minute hands are not the usual flat ones seen.

So, a rare example of a pretty rare watch to begin with. Well done!

(All in my opinion, of course.)


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> I think it has to be okay, kev80. What else could it be? It has the correct case shape and crown position, correct dial organization with Luch and Quartz where they should be and correct small spade second hand (many have large spade). In addition to the asymmetric pattern relief the dial has numbers instead of the hour bars and minute marks as usually seen and the hour and minute hands are not the usual flat ones seen.
> 
> So, a rare example of a pretty rare watch to begin with. Well done!
> 
> (All in my opinion, of course.)


Just my thoughts Schnurrp but it was not being able to find another one anywhere that just put a tiny doubt in my mind. Having said that it just seemed right, and other people's thoughts on any purchase are always good to have, thanks for your input.


----------



## Shai1

Raketa 24H - purportedly a "rare early model". 
Hi comrades. Ive never seen this particular dial before, neither on eBay nor the old Raketa catalogues. 
Mechanism back looks different to other 2623 movements I have seen.
Is this indeed a 'rare early model' Raketa 24H or a modern fake/franken?
For the record, I think its a beautiful watch either way.


----------



## elsoldemayo

It could be an early version of the watch on this page from the 68 catalogue. I agree it is a lovely watch. If it is original, the matching of the colours on the hands and the indices/numbers is really nice. Not cheap though and with a 32mm dial, it is quite small for a 24 hr watch.


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> It could be an early version of the watch on this page from the 68 catalogue. I agree it is a lovely watch. If it is original, the matching of the colours on the hands and the indices/numbers is really nice. Not cheap though and with a 32mm dial, it is quite small for a 24 hr watch.


Yes, I was going to suggest that one, too. It has the "baltika" version of the 2623 movement.

Here it is in Aleksandr Brodnikovsky's collection: https://fotki.yandex.ru/users/asasin0611/album/177149/ along with a couple even cooler ones. Alexandr has some good pictures of the movements, too.









My problem with that particular one for sale now is condition. It looks as if the dial has spent some time in a box or drawer with some others until it was discovered and used in a project. Still, it would be tempting at a lower price.


----------



## schnurrp

Is there a reproduction Rodina dial like this one out there? The one on the right looks suspicious to me and is for sale now on ebay.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Is there a reproduction Rodina dial like this one out there? The one on the right looks suspicious to me and is for sale now on ebay.


Glad you asked, I was wondering the same thing. It looks too good to be true, but I can't find anything obviously wrong with it (other than the second hand).


----------



## Ham2

Pretty sure it is a reproduction. Numbers are a too thin and there are some subtle script issues


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Glad you asked, I was wondering the same thing. It looks too good to be true, but I can't find anything obviously wrong with it (other than the second hand).





Ham2 said:


> Pretty sure it is a reproduction. Numbers are a too thin and there are some subtle script issues


Mroatman, are you aware that you can only place 1000 posts without an avatar? Better get busy.

Not only are the number too thin but the ends of the "1"s are squared off as are some of the other numerals. The ends of the "1"s and some of the other numerals on the other example are rounded which help to give it a certain charm as if they were hand painted with a pointed brush.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Mroatman, are you aware that you can only place 1000 posts without an avatar? Better get busy.


Crikey!


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Mroatman, are you aware that you can only place 1000 posts without an avatar? Better get busy.


Better?


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Better?


Oh, much!


----------



## OrangeOrange

The seller said it is supposed to have a precision regulator. Does it look like it?


----------



## mroatman

OrangeOrange said:


> The seller said it is supposed to have a precision regulator. Does it look like it?


Nope, definitely not. I does have a "normal" regulator, however. Maybe it's a matter of semantics, but for me, a precision regulator implies something like that on the Vostok Precision 2809:


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Nope, definitely not. I does have a "normal" regulator, however. Maybe it's a matter of semantics, but for me, a precision regulator implies something like that on the Vostok Precision 2809:
> 
> View attachment 4833137


Molnija did make a movement with a precision adjustable balance. They're not rare and a couple are usually available at any one time on the 'bay. Here's one available now for less than $35/delivered:


----------



## OrangeOrange

You guys think the pocket watch is good enough to be part of a collection? Even without the precision regulator?


----------



## Underbergpaw

Hi again comrades

Afraid I'm hooked on the russian 24h watch. I recently bought the submariner and now I've laid my eyes on this little beauty

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=281758141519&globalID=EBAY-US

Since I'm a newbie to these watches I would like Your expertize opinions about the genuity. Is the dial correct. Are the hands ok. The movement seems right and the stamps likewise.

Any input that would confirm its legit or not are most welcome.

Thx in advance


----------



## schnurrp

OrangeOrange said:


> You guys think the pocket watch is good enough to be part of a collection? Even without the precision regulator?


That really is a personal question but as for me, I would want something a little more unusual, particularly since I don't use pocket watches and ones like this are and will remain easily obtainable. Why not buy the one I pictured? At least it has the precision adjuster. Here's the link: Excellent Serviced Soviet USSR Pocket Watch MOLNIJA Open Face 18 Jewels | eBay.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Underbergpaw said:


> Hi again comrades
> 
> Afraid I'm hooked on the russian 24h watch. I recently bought the submariner and now I've laid my eyes on this little beauty
> 
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=281758141519&globalID=EBAY-US
> 
> Since I'm a newbie to these watches I would like Your expertize opinions about the genuity. Is the dial correct. Are the hands ok. The movement seems right and the stamps likewise.
> 
> Any input that would confirm its legit or not are most welcome.
> 
> Thx in advance


Hands, movement, crowns & case all look correct. The crystal appears to be the correct gently domed shape but can't be 100% sure from the pics. So no obvious problems and if I didn't already have one of these I'd be tempted to bid.


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> Hands, movement, crowns & case all look correct. The crystal appears to be the correct gently domed shape but can't be 100% sure from the pics. So no obvious problems and if I didn't already have one of these I'd be tempted to bid.


Yes, I agree.

Condition is nothing to write home about with some scratches on the black bezel but no significant "brassing" and the dial/bezel seems to be in good shape. Cleaned up with crystal polished and your favorite watchband it should be quite presentable. A soviet classic, and Cyrillic, too.


----------



## kev80e

Would Appreciate your thoughts on this gents. Where I would expect the jewel count it has Chistopol ,replaced hands? As most will know for sale by asap31 , but for some reason I seem to be blocked on his sales,waiting his reply to this.


----------



## Lokifish

Seeing it's not an original piece, anything goes. The lume opening is narrow on the minute hand so I'd say the hands have been replaced. As far as the jewel count, 31J but I would not expect to see that anywhere.


----------



## kev80e

Lokifish said:


> Seeing it's not an original piece, anything goes. The lume opening is narrow on the minute hand so I'd say the hands have been replaced. As far as the jewel count, 31J but I would not expect to see that anywhere.


Thanks Lokifish, just didn't know if it was something I had missed , never seen anything like it before.


----------



## Lokifish

kev80e said:


> Thanks Lokifish, just didn't know if it was something I had missed , never seen anything like it before.


All good. For an homage/mod it's a really nice piece. A classic 119 with a 2416 makes for an attractive automatic tool watch IMHO.


----------



## mroatman

Never seen a gold-dialed version of this football Luch:









The printing looks pretty crude compared with an original:


----------



## DavidUK

Any expert opinions on this would be appreciated. Not sure about the red second hand, but are there any other discrepancies?


----------



## elsoldemayo

The crown looks too rounded and I agree on the second hand. But the dial & case look in good shape so if it's a reasonable price I'd be tempted to but and pick up a donor watch for the correct crown and a gold second hand.


----------



## mroatman

A new reproduction dial for 2209s? Looks like a ripoff of a 2415 dial...

LUCH 23 J 2209 RARE Large Watch and Dial Mechanism Mechanical | eBay









I don't recognize the case either.


----------



## mroatman

Never mind about the case, I think it's legit:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=141745962513&globalID=EBAY-US

Still skeptical of that dial, though.


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> A new reproduction dial for 2209s? Looks like a ripoff of a 2415 dial... LUCH 23 J 2209 RARE Large Watch and Dial Mechanism Mechanical | eBay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't recognize the case either.


Ok I think, yet normal domestic product, not so rare as a matter of fact.


----------



## mroatman

And what about the lumed dial without lumed hands? Surely that wasn't by design?

I'll readily admit to knowing very little about modern (post-1980) watches, but this one seems fishy to me.


----------



## mariomart

I just bid/won this on Ebay on a whim. I'm pretty certain the red lumed hands are not original, however I would love to entertain the thought that it may have been a factory test watch. The rest of the watch looks pretty original. I'm considering replacing the dial with a less depleted dial in the same style from the same time period to keep it "original" . I'll know more about the watch in a month or so when it actually arrives. I would call it The Red "Arm"y ;-) lol


----------



## mroatman

Something about the printing on this dial doesn't sit right with me. Am I imagining things?


----------



## emoscambio

mroatman said:


> Something about the printing on this dial doesn't sit right with me. Am I imagining things?


The Ural has had several runs.

This one is the (afaik later, or is it earlier?) version without central second.

The printing is certainly different than the designs of the three hand models on the 1960 catalogue, yet it is not inconsistent with the style of those years, typical for Majak and Raketa printed over a decorated stamped or etched centre part.

Unfortunately and quite expectably said printing is very likely to have quite soon disappeared as recently discussed on F10.


----------



## mroatman

emoscambio said:


> The Ural has had several runs.
> 
> This one is the (afaik later, or is it earlier?) version without central second.
> 
> The printing is certainly different than the designs of the three hand models on the 1960 catalogue, yet it is not inconsistent with the style of those years, typical for Majak and Raketa printed over a decorated stamped or etched centre part.
> 
> Unfortunately and quite expectably said printing is very likely to have quite soon disappeared as recently discussed on F10.


Thanks for your input. I guess it could be legit. If so, I would assume it's a later model. In my research, all Urals with embossed dials also have embossed numbers with drop-shaped hour markers -- and those with simple printed numbers use a different font (compare especially the number "4"):

Watches of the USSR: Ural

It's too suspicious for me to take a risk, though it does look like a nice watch. Somebody will be a happy owner, I'm sure. Thanks again for the reply.


----------



## Alex528

Hey guys! I just received this Vostok Amphibia, and would like to know some more details on it. I'm also wondering what exactly the lug widths are so I can source a strap. I personally think it would look good on this, but any other opinions would be appreciated. I'd also like to know how old it is, if that's possible. Thanks guys.


----------



## amil

100 percent of the original. 18 mm strap.


----------



## Alex528

Thank you! Any idea how old it is?


----------



## amil

1989-1991


----------



## Alex528

Awesome. Thank you.


----------



## Slarnos

I think that dial looks good with pretty much any nato strap you might use with it. Mine tends to spend it's time on a navy blue, orange, and white striped strap.


----------



## Arizone

Alex528 said:


> View attachment 5071953


Nice caps. I have plain blanks and a Geekhack one.


----------



## Alex528

Arizone said:


> Nice caps. I have plain blanks and a Geekhack one.


Cool! I have a set of blank PBT keycaps, a nubbinator deckerson, a K3KC Scull and Robot (Don't tell geekhack that or I'll get crucified), a nubbinator dolly, a HKP Raven, a Kitzkinder gameboy thing, a nose from a lesser-known artisan and, my personal favourite, a chibi dragon from Krytone.


----------



## Alex528

Slarnos said:


> I think that dial looks good with pretty much any nato strap you might use with it. Mine tends to spend it's time on a navy blue, orange, and white striped strap.


That looks great, Thanks for the idea.


----------



## eserim

Opinions on Military Mechanical POLJOT Wrist Watch " Aviator " USSR for men 3nж | eBay

I know it isn't too old, even if "right" but opinions welcome as I really like the look of it.

Cheers

Eserim


----------



## Caleb_TH

I'm curious if this watch is legit or not. It's listed as a 1944 Rolex Oyster Speedking Precision, but looking around at similar watches most have a much more era-specific dial. Does this watch look to have replaced parts?


----------



## schnurrp

You'll probably get an answer here but I think there is a forum dedicated to Rolex watches: Rolex & Tudor

F10 is for Russian watches.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Is there a reproduction Rodina dial like this one out there? The one on the right looks suspicious to me and is for sale now on ebay.
> 
> View attachment 4815961


In case there was any question before, the final nail in the coffin:

New Clok Dial Watch Rodina USSR Diameter 27 Mm | eBay


----------



## OrangeOrange




----------



## mariomart

I've been on the look-out for a 4 o'clock crown Vostok for a while, and when I spotted this one today I just had to have it. I particularly love the black dial. I'm pretty certain it's all original (including the Zim bracelet) . Only thing I'm not sure on is the second hand as I've seen a few variables in other picture galleries. Now for the long wait for UKR post ......


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I've just bought a Poljot de Luxe. I don't know it is legit, fake or franken. 
Can you tell me about this watch? 
I show some photos:


----------



## mroatman

The dial is a modern reproduction and the crown is replaced. I can't tell if the second hand is red...if it is, than that's replaced, too. The case and case back are correct. Do you have a movement shot?


----------



## miroman

mariomart said:


> View attachment 5108242


The balance bridge is replaced. The new one has a sloop edge, while the other bridges have not.

Regards, Miro.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> The dial is a modern reproduction and the crown is replaced. I can't tell if the second hand is red...if it is, than that's replaced, too. The case and case back are correct. Do you have a movement shot?


Dear Mroatman,
this is movement.


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear Mroatman,
> this is movement.


Unfortunately, that's incorrect, too  That is an early Luch movement from the Minsk Factory (Poljot was produced at 1MWF, not Minsk). Same movement, different manufacturer.

The parts really do not belong together, so I would say this is a true franken: modern dial, Luch movement, Minsk/1MWF case, 1MWF case back, replaced crown, replaced second hand.

If you paid a lot of money and expected something authentic, I would seek a return/refund, especially if the watch was advertised as original. But if you like the way it looks and it still keeps the time, then enjoy it for what it is


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> Unfortunately, that's incorrect, too  That is an early Luch movement from the Minsk Factory (Poljot was produced at 1MWF, not Minsk). Same movement, different manufacturer.
> 
> The parts really do not belong together, so I would say this is a true franken: modern dial, Luch movement, Minsk/1MWF case, 1MWF case back, replaced crown, replaced second hand.
> 
> If you paid a lot of money and expected something authentic, I would seek a return/refund, especially if the watch was advertised as original. But if you like the way it looks and it still keeps the time, then enjoy it for what it is


Thank you very much. 
I paid $70 for it. I will return as soon as possible.
So, where can I buy an authentic Poljot De Luxe? There are many Poljot watchs on eBay but I dont know which is original.
Can you leave an advice?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Thank you very much.
> I paid $70 for it. I will return as soon as possible.
> So, where can I buy an authentic Poljot De Luxe? There are many Poljot watchs on eBay but I dont know which is original.
> Can you leave an advice?


Yes, you should be able to find an original for the same cost. It's best to return this one.

My best advice is to post photos here _before_ you purchase -- that way others can advise you whether it is authentic or not.

If you are looking for a Poljot de Luxe, I would watch out for the following attributes:
- Authentic dial with smaller/narrower slash marks (compare here)
- Gilded hour, minute, _and_ second hands
- Smaller, rounded crown
- Case back with concentric brushing (not lateral)
- Movement marked with the 1MWF pentagon

Next time, post a few pictures here first, and once you know if it's original, then you can buy worry-free


----------



## DavidUK

Any thoughts on this? As the condition is so good I assume it must be some sort of replaced dial and the case could be new as well. Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

When I see one in such beautiful condition and then I see a little wear on the dial I have three thoughts:

The wear indicates it is not a reproduction.
How did that wear get on there?
Are the reproducers learning how to "age" their products? 
If so, we are doomed!

Looks good to me. Here's a similar one from Antonov with a different center pattern:


----------



## mroatman

DavidUK said:


> Any thoughts on this? As the condition is so good I assume it must be some sort of replaced dial and the case could be new as well. Thanks


The only potential flaw I find is with the second hand. I would expect a full-length hand that extends all the way to the minute track.

The case looks to be in a bit better condition than the dial (near flawless vs. very good), so that could indicate the watch has been recased. But I wouldn't be bothered by this because 1) there's no sure way to tell and 2) it looks great.

In my experience, this seller's auctions typically end at a rather high price point, so if you want this one to be yours, be prepared to pay accordingly. Of course, only time will tell. Good luck!


----------



## DavidUK

mroatman said:


> The only potential flaw I find is with the second hand. I would expect a full-length hand that extends all the way to the minute track.
> 
> The case looks to be in a bit better condition than the dial (near flawless vs. very good), so that could indicate the watch has been recased. But I wouldn't be bothered by this because 1) there's no sure way to tell and 2) it looks great.
> 
> In my experience, this seller's auctions typically end at a rather high price point, so if you want this one to be yours, be prepared to pay accordingly. Of course, only time will tell. Good luck!


Thank you for both the replies. Is there any way to estimate the age as no date on the movement?


----------



## mroatman

DavidUK said:


> Thank you for both the replies. Is there any way to estimate the age as no date on the movement?


Well, Kirovskie as a brand ended in 1963 when all 1MWF watches were rebranded "Poljot". So that watch would date back to sometime before 1963. Its presence in the 1960 catalog is another clue. Other than that, I think we'd just have to estimate late-1950s or early-1960s.


----------



## schnurrp

After looking at a similar one in a 1960 catalog (pictured below) I agree with mroatman, the second hand should be longer.

So then the question is how does a pristine case come to enclose a dial which to me has some handling marks and the wrong second hand? Personally I would conclude it's not authentic and it would not be a candidate for my eclectic collection, as I have evolved to the point where I value authenticity above almost anything, no matter the reputation of the seller or the quality of the presentation.
I am left with the question of what was originally in the case if not that dial.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I'm bidding on eBay for Poljot De Luxe with price is $40. I show some photos below. I dont know this watch is original or franken. Can you hlep me?


----------



## OrangeOrange

OrangeOrange said:


> View attachment 5094546
> View attachment 5094554
> View attachment 5094562


Can somebody please help me with this watch? Thanks.


----------



## fratilescu

Fake or the real deal ? I have a cortebert pocket watch and i don't know if it's fake or real. On the back it has inscribed 0,900 and a number : 1025115 and beneath it is 6 and 4 with a little space. I think it's silver. Can you tell me ? Thank you in advance.


----------



## storyteller

OrangeOrange said:


> Can somebody please help me with this watch? Thanks.


Looks perfect to me. I'm not sure about the crown - never paid much attention to the crowns, but for 40 USD it is a steal.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

Please tell me this Raketa watch is legit or franken.
Thank you very much.


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all,
> 
> Please tell me this Raketa watch is legit or franken.
> Thank you very much.


I was not able to find this particular watch in a Raketa catalog but it Looks plausible to me. The dial appears to be a white form of the one below from a '67 Raketa catalog and that case appears to be a Raketa case similar to the airplane model pictured from the same catalog. The crown and crystal appear to be original. I could see this combination being offered at some time.

It could have had its movement replaced in part or altogether so a movement picture would be nice.


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all,
> 
> Please tell me this Raketa watch is legit or franken.
> Thank you very much.


I researched this Raketa style before buying my own, and I have never seen this case/dial combination. It doesn't mean it didn't exist, but I have my doubts based on the catalog evidence (here, here, and here) and my own experience sourcing these...


----------



## dutchassasin

Anyone in need of a speace watch?  
something is off: no poljot logo, thick lume dots, misaligned printing and the mispelled word space.


----------



## emoscambio

dutchassasin said:


> Anyone in need of a speace watch?  something is off: no poljot logo, thick lume dots, misaligned printing and the mispelled word space.


Wow this is just amazing! 'space' meets 'peace' on one dial. Excellent spello!


----------



## mroatman

Another reproduction dial to look out for:

Vympel LUCH 1MCHZ Russian Watch Made in USSR Strap | eBay


----------



## Astute-C

Would any of the comrades be able to give their opinion on this Kirovskie (hands/case etc)? Dial only at the moment as the seller has promised to send me some movement pictures. Or if anyone can post me a link o to a relevant catalogue?

Thanks in anticipation.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Case looks to be a typical Kirovskie case, but the crown is very likely replaced as I believe the correct one is slightly cone shaped like this one.


----------



## Astute-C

Also would anyone be able to comment on the authenticity of the dial/hands/crown of this Poljot?


----------



## mroatman

Astute-C said:


> Also would anyone be able to comment on the authenticity of the dial/hands/crown of this Poljot?


Looks good to me. Crown might be questionable and there seems to be some significant gold plating loss on the case. Dial and hands appear to be original.


----------



## mroatman

I don't even know what to think.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> I don't even know what to think.
> 
> View attachment 5301538
> 
> 
> View attachment 5301546


Mismatch between Latin maker and Cyrillic jewel count and no place of manufacture. I'd be suspicious.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I'm bidding on eBay for a Raketa watch, but I dont know it is original or franken. Can you help me?
Photos:


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> I'm bidding on eBay for a Raketa watch, but I dont know it is original or franken. Can you help me?
> Photos:


Looks good except either dial (16 jewel) or movement (21 jewel) have been replaced since they don't match.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

schnurrp said:


> Looks good except either dial (16 jewel) or movement (21 jewel) have been replaced since they don't match.


Thank you very much. What is about second hand?


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Thank you very much. What is about second hand?


See, you're learning!

Yes, going back to the examples posted by mroatman the second hand appears to be short. Also none of the examples have the "spade" end second hand like that one.


----------



## SennaGTS

The following two watches are from a seller "svtrrts" on Ebay. I did some research about this seller and people have been generally very happy with what he has to offer. However, a few have mentioned he has had frankens in the past. Another problem I had was; the seller didn't specify an exact date the watch was released/produced, only a particular decade. This made it harder to search through the right catalogue and it was already hard enough to find Slava/Pobeda catalogues.

Slava made in "the middle of the 90's" at the 2nd Moscow Watch Factory:

















Zim Pobeda made in "the 80's" at the Maslennikov Watch Factory:

















This 1980's watch appears to have the dings and wear a watch from the period would have...but everything can be faked.

Thanks for any help!

EDIT: I should also add, I looked through the 1993 Slava Catalogue and found similar looking watches to the first one, but nothing the same.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> See, you're learning!
> 
> Yes, going back to the examples posted by mroatman the second hand appears to be short. Also none of the examples have the "spade" end second hand like that one.


I agree. The dial is very nice, but the movement is replaced. So is the crown. And the second hand.

It's too bad -- a dial in this condition is not common.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear mroatman and mr schnurrp,

Please review this Poljot watch.


----------



## mroatman

Where did you find this one, Luke? It's beautiful and looks correct to me. I have a similar one here, though yours looks to be in better condition - aside from that strange bump on the dial near 9 o'clock...is that a reflection? I'm on my phone and can't see it very well.

I'd feel comfortable purchasing that one.


----------



## heimdalg

In my opinion the glass is replaced and the dial was mounted by a negligent watchmaker.


----------



## Coug76

heimdalg said:


> In my opinion the glass is replaced and the dial was mounted by a negligent watchmaker.


That *is* quite the pimple between 8 and 9...

Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


----------



## bounding star

Hi, new here. Really confused about this volmax (maybe?) aviator. Can't find any solid info on it.


----------



## przypadek

So, what about this Zim. I'm sure the hands aren't original since all the others I've seen have a very similar shape but are black. (But maybe all I've seen are wrong?) I also know the case and glass have been replaced but should be in the same style as the original. Is that so?

Well, besides that how does it look? Has the dial been repainted? Does it look like the original movement? If not, is it the correct movement for the model? And, of course, anything else you might notice.

I got it because I don't mind a few replacements, it was cheap, and I like the blue hands. It's a mod I might do if I was replacing the hands. But, an original dial and the correct movement are very important to me. I would prefer an original case, but it's mainly important that its enough like the original to be difficult to distinguish them.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Original or franken?
I show this Raketa, can you help me?


----------



## heimdalg

Original in my opinion,


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Original or franken?
> I show this Raketa, can you help me?


Hard to say without a picture of the movement, but the exterior looks good to me.


----------



## mroatman

On second thought, I believe the back is replaced. An original should have the Raketa "shockproof" logo:


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Thank you very much. What is about Raketa with calendar? Price: US $30.


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Thank you very much. What is about Raketa with calendar? Price: US $30.


Looks fine. From the 1991 and 1992 catalogs:


----------



## schnurrp

przypadek said:


> So, what about this Zim. I'm sure the hands aren't original since all the others I've seen have a very similar shape but are black. (But maybe all I've seen are wrong?) I also know the case and glass have been replaced but should be in the same style as the original. Is that so?
> 
> Well, besides that how does it look? Has the dial been repainted? Does it look like the original movement? If not, is it the correct movement for the model? And, of course, anything else you might notice.
> 
> I got it because I don't mind a few replacements, it was cheap, and I like the blue hands. It's a mod I might do if I was replacing the hands. But, an original dial and the correct movement are very important to me. I would prefer an original case, but it's mainly important that its enough like the original to be difficult to distinguish them.
> 
> View attachment 5326770
> 
> 
> View attachment 5326778
> 
> 
> View attachment 5326786
> 
> 
> View attachment 5326794


I can't help but ask you, comrade, how you "know" so much about this watch. If all three hands are blue I would say they are authentic. There is a pretty strong soviet precedent for these "blued" hands and many collectors are happy to see watches with them. If the second hand is black (I can't really tell from the picture), it may be a replacement for a blue one lost or damaged during a repair or a service.

I have no reason to doubt anything else about this Zim and would tend to believe it is authentic although since I was not able to find it in a catalog and I don't have a relative or a close friend that has one he says he bought from a store selling Zim watches in the '70s, for me its authenticity remains an open question. Very, very unlikely the dial was re-painted since it would not be worth the trouble for a watch with as little collector interest as this one has. If it runs well it would make a nice watch to wear since it appears to be almost 35mm in diameter, pretty big for a soviet-era sub-dial watch. It's from around 1970 with an authentic striped Zim 2602 movement, in my opinion.

Similar from 1970 catalog:









Thanks for sharing!


----------



## elsoldemayo

Just bought the watch below on impulse. I can see this case, dial combo in the catalogues, but not an orange dial. Is this a legitimate variant or has a blue dial somehow faded to orange?


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> It's from around 1970 with an authentic striped Zim 2602 movement, in my opinion.


Why would the movement say "4-55"? Is there an instance when such an inscription does not refer to the date of manufacture?


----------



## mariomart

elsoldemayo said:


> Just bought the watch below on impulse. I can see this case, dial combo in the catalogues, but not an orange dial. Is this a legitimate variant or has a blue dial somehow faded to orange?
> 
> View attachment 5334026


Going off the photo I would say that it's actually a Blue dial but it's reflecting something making it appear orange. I could be wrong.


----------



## elsoldemayo

mariomart said:


> Going off the photo I would say that it's actually a Blue dial but it's reflecting something making it appear orange. I could be wrong.


It's definitely an orangey-reddish-rusty colour as the seller had 3 dial pics and it's the same colour in all of them. If it wasn't for the 3rd watch in this post, I'd be sure it had just faded from blue, as the only non-blue dials I've seen are very recent, but that post shows that there were some other colours issued.


----------



## mariomart

elsoldemayo said:


> It's definitely an orangey-reddish-rusty colour as the seller had 3 dial pics and it's the same colour in all of them. If it wasn't for the 3rd watch in this post, I'd be sure it had just faded from blue, as the only non-blue dials I've seen are very recent, but that post shows that there were some other colours issued.


I see that the post following the one you quoted calls it an "Eggplant" dial, It must be one of the earlier colors that were available. Great catch


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> Looks fine. From the 1991 and 1992 catalogs:
> 
> View attachment 5331378
> 
> 
> View attachment 5331386
> 
> 
> View attachment 5331394


Thank for your help, my watch is gold-coated case but these catalogs show chrome plated cases. It is different. why????


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Thank for your help, my watch is gold-coated case but these catalogs show chrome plated cases. It is different. why????


They look gold-plated to me...


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> They look gold-plated to me...


Thank you. 
Can you send me Raketa catalog ? where can I download it?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Thank you.
> Can you send me Raketa catalog ? where can I download it?


https://plus.google.com/photos/113098239036073221216/albums?banner=pwa)

OROLOGIKO • Leggi argomento - Cataloghi orologi sovietici - Soviet Watches Catalogs

Have fun


----------



## przypadek

schnurrp said:


> I can't help but ask you, comrade, how you "know" so much about this watch. If all three hands are blue I would say they are authentic. There is a pretty strong soviet precedent for these "blued" hands and many collectors are happy to see watches with them. If the second hand is black (I can't really tell from the picture), it may be a replacement for a blue one lost or damaged during a repair or a service.
> 
> I have no reason to doubt anything else about this Zim and would tend to believe it is authentic although since I was not able to find it in a catalog and I don't have a relative or a close friend that has one he says he bought from a store selling Zim watches in the '70s, for me its authenticity remains an open question. Very, very unlikely the dial was re-painted since it would not be worth the trouble for a watch with as little collector interest as this one has. If it runs well it would make a nice watch to wear since it appears to be almost 35mm in diameter, pretty big for a soviet-era sub-dial watch. It's from around 1970 with an authentic striped Zim 2602 movement, in my opinion.


Haha, I don't know .... apparently.  My gut was smarter than my brain since I got it. Actually, immediately before reading your post, I was just doing some reverse image search, and why I didn't find it, I did learn two things... blue hands were a lot more common than I thought and that the reason the dial was bugging me might actually be the reason the design makes sense.

I've seen this Zim around a few times but didn't remember it exactly, just made this one seem wrong.









So, I'm thinking this must be a later design because this two-tone dial makes a lot more sense as a progression of a previous solid color design than one that would exist alongside it.

And, yes, the second hand is black, but now I bet it was blue like you say.

I'm surprised at how well these metallic colored dials can hold up, I'd expect them to be among the worst to fade. Ah well, now we are back to me not knowing .....  I'm glad though, because I really like them.

Thanks again for the help!


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Why would the movement say "4-55"? Is there an instance when such an inscription does not refer to the date of manufacture?


No, no, my mistake, movement date should indicate manufacture date of the watch. Quite a discrepancy there that I didn't notice. Harder than ever to tell which parts belong together if any.


----------



## schnurrp

przypadek said:


> Ah well, now we are back to me not knowing .....


A common state of mind when collecting Russian watches, unfortunately.

Glad to help, przypadek, you are a good sport.


----------



## elsoldemayo

opps, info posted already


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> Just bought the watch below on impulse. I can see this case, dial combo in the catalogues, but not an orange dial. Is this a legitimate variant or has a blue dial somehow faded to orange?
> 
> View attachment 5334026


The fading blue soviet-era "scuba-dude" dial has been discussed off and on over the years and I believe the consensus is that some blue dials fade through to brown and eventually gold as shown on my example below awaiting restoration.

There may have been colors other than blue or blue-black offered for the soviet version of this dial but I have never seen any convincing examples (Russian dials don't count). My opinion is that yours has begun to fade and will eventually be gold.


----------



## elsoldemayo

schnurrp said:


> The fading blue soviet-era "scuba-dude" dial has been discussed off and on over the years and I believe the consensus is that some blue dials fade through to brown and eventually gold as shown on my example below awaiting restoration.
> 
> There may have been colors other than blue or blue-black offered for the soviet version of this dial but I have never seen any convincing examples (Russian dials don't count). My opinion is that yours has begun to fade and will eventually be gold.


Makes sense seeing your example. Also, having not seen them before suddenly they're everywhere. Just spotted this one on ebay which seems to be a little earlier in it's fading journey. Any thoughts on what causes the fading? Exposure to sunlight?


----------



## komokino

That Zim with the strange typeface puzzled me too.


----------



## emoscambio

komokino said:


> That Zim with the strange typeface puzzled me too.


Very standard of ZiM, this and Pobeda.


----------



## Arizone

Hahaha, oh my, this is quite a lovely 3133 movement. Ruhla chronograf movement, how did they even fit it together?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Discussed in another thread and it's just a picture mix up in the listing. Note the movement pic doesn't have the crown for turning the bezel.


----------



## DJW GB

Any thoughts please? It's the colour with roman numerals that's confused me. DW.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> Looks fine. From the 1991 and 1992 catalogs:
> 
> View attachment 5331378
> 
> 
> View attachment 5331386
> 
> 
> View attachment 5331394


Dear mroatman,

I read carefully but I have not ever seen a Raketa watch with gold-plated case. I show it below:


----------



## mroatman

DJW GB said:


> Any thoughts please? It's the colour with roman numerals that's confused me. DW.


Looks fine to me. Here's one of mine with a white dial. I can only assume a black variant was produced as well.

Unless they're both franken! ;-)


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear mroatman,
> 
> I read carefully but I have not ever seen a Raketa watch with gold-plated case. I show it below:


I assure you, Raketa produced many, many watches with gold-plated cases. There are few things I am 100% certain about in Russian watch collecting. But this is one of them.


----------



## DJW GB

Thankyou mroatman for the fast reply. DW.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk


----------



## Shai1

Hello comrades,

Have just received a Big Zero from eBay. White dial, chrome case. 
It's my second Zero (my first was a beautiful specimen from a reputable seller known on this forum, with a white dial and gilt case).

I expected the dials to be identical, however on close inspection there are significant differences.

On the gilt case watch (which from the reputation of the vendor, I assumed to be 100% legitimate), the numbers, triangles & text appears to be printed into the dial, in so much as there is no discernible difference on the finish which reflects light differently between the white face and the print. I can only describe it as ink impregnated into card, or very thin paint on metal, then clear lacquer finish on top . Also, the "Cделано в СССР" and quality seal is very crisp and fine, and nothing seems smudged.

A big contrast is my latest arrival, the chromed case, text is smudged, not crisp or defined, and while I cannot capture this in a photo, it is obvious that the black detail is printed on top of the gloss finish on the dial, and it is in a thick matt paint. When in sunlight it is very obvious due to the shiny white face vs the matt black paint.

Can any Zero owners and experts tell me if both are legitimate variations of the dial, or if one is a reprint/fake dial?
----------------------------
Side by side, chrome case on left, gilt on right.








---------------------------

Close up of chrome case face. Note the smudged text.








-------------------------

Close up of gilt case face. Note the sharp and defined text.


----------



## dutchassasin

This might be a strange question but could this be a genuine poljot stainless steel bracelet like the ones that can sometimes be found on the Okeahs and sturmanskies? I have no interested in the watch itself but only the bracelet.









For example, comrade Koutouzoff's Okeah. Stolen without permission from his blog: http://koutouzoff-watches.blogspot.nl:


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> This might be a strange question but could this be a genuine poljot stainless steel bracelet like the ones that can sometimes be found on the Okeahs and sturmanskies? I have no interested in the watch itself but only the bracelet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For example, comrade Koutouzoff's Okeah. Stolen without permission from his blog: Koutouzoff's soviet watches


Could be. More pictures showing clasp would be nice but worth a shot, in my opinion, for the right price.


----------



## dutchassasin

Thanks for the help Schnurrp, the seller is willing to sell the strap without the watch. Ive asked for some additional photo's.

small update: I thought the cat was already in the bag, but the seller all the sudden went quiet :/


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,
I'm interested in this Poljot automatic 29j with calendar. Maybe I buy it but I don't know it is legit or franken. Can you help me?


----------



## heimdalg

Mine greets his.


----------



## schnurrp

That one has a well-known reproduction dial which can be identified by the lack of a space between "29" and "jewels".

Here's a picture of what I consider an authentic dial although the hands may be incorrect:









Here's a '72 catalog picture:


----------



## Tigris

Hi everybody, my first post and Russian watch purchase, did I buy a Frankenwatch?
cheers Andy


----------



## schnurrp

Tigris said:


> Hi everybody, my first post and Russian watch purchase, did I buy a Frankenwatch?
> cheers Andy
> View attachment 5428490


Da!


----------



## Tigris

schnurrp said:


> Da!


ta--poo ?


----------



## dj898

I got an offer on this item.

Very RARE POBEDA Yuri Gagarin 1961 Made in USSR | eBay

do you think this looks legit?

cheers chaps


----------



## mroatman

dj898 said:


> I got an offer on this item.
> 
> Very RARE POBEDA Yuri Gagarin 1961 Made in USSR | eBay
> 
> do you think this looks legit?
> 
> cheers chaps


Nope :/


----------



## mroatman

Check this out. A Minsk 2209 unlike any I've ever seen. The stamp on the bridge looks like the Penza logo, but is clearly marked МЧЗ rather than ПЧЗ. Could this have been a partnership of sorts? Perhaps this can explain that mysterious triangle on the dial of a few rare 2209s?

















Here's the original listing: 70&apos;s Vintage LUCH Gold 14k 583 Ultra Slim 23 Jewels Soviet USSR Men&apos;s Watch | eBay. The dial is obviously a reproduction, but that movement looks pretty legit to me. Interesting.


----------



## dutchassasin

There is this sturmanskie 3133 for sale on the bay which looks to be in very good condition, perhaps a bit too mutch. How can a stainless steel case and a plated one be distinguished? Same goes for pushers, the crown looks strange on this example. Due to this typical bracelet what can be found on Italian nos cases i believe this case might not be stainless afterall. What are your thoughts?


----------



## mariomart

dutchassasin said:


> There is this sturmanskie 3133 for sale on the bay which looks to be in very good condition, perhaps a bit too mutch. How can a stainless steel case and a plated one be distinguished? Same goes for pushers, the crown looks strange on this example. Due to this typical bracelet what can be found on Italian nos cases i believe this case might not be stainless afterall. What are your thoughts?


I'm pretty sure that is a stainless steel case due to it having a radial brushed effect, but I'm no expert.


----------



## schnurrp

You can only tell stainless by color unless you want to gouge into your nice new case. Stainless is warmer than chrome and will match the back and back ring. It's usually pretty obvious when the cold and shiny chrome finish is placed next to a known stainless part. That one is questionable, in my opinion and if you look back at the listing you will see a newer movement or replacement balance throwing the whole watch into question.


----------



## dutchassasin

Thank you for your expertise comrade Schnurrp, at the time i made the request there was no movement shot in the ad. I see now that the balance wheel has the wrong colour and should have been a gold-coloured one. Also the triangular bridge inscription looks too deep in comparison with other examples around. Bummer, could have lived with a replaced balance wheel but as its lacking the original stainless case i pass on this one.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Volna chronometer cal. 2809 Zenith 135 copy

I see this Volna watch on eBay, seller tell me it is chronometer Soviet watch. I will bid to buy it now. So, can you tell it is legit or franken?
Thank you!


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Volna chronometer cal. 2809 Zenith 135 copy
> 
> I see this Volna watch on eBay, seller tell me it is chronometer Soviet watch. I will bid to buy it now. So, can you tell it is legit or franken?
> Thank you!


It is a Volna 2809, it is a Zenith 135 copy, and it is legit -- looks fantastic, actually. But a chronometer it is not. I believe that title was reserved for the "Precision" line of Vostoks.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> It is a Volna 2809, it is a Zenith 135 copy, and it is legit -- looks fantastic, actually. But a chronometer it is not. I believe that title was reserved for the "Precision" line of Vostoks.


Thank you very much.
What is about this Vostok Precision 22 jewels cal: 2809? Is it chronometer and legit?

VOSTOK Precision 22 Jewels Cal 2809 Chronometer Soviet Russian Watch 17 5 | eBay


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Thank you very much.
> What is about this Vostok Precision 22 jewels cal: 2809? Is it chronometer and legit?
> 
> VOSTOK Precision 22 Jewels Cal 2809 Chronometer Soviet Russian Watch 17 5 | eBay


From an informative thread on this subject (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html):

"I have been collecting Vostok 2809 for two years and the more I learn about it, the more puzzled I am. A few things seem relatively established - e.g. the movements with „ЧЧЗ" logo are older than the ones with „В" logo; the cases with 18 mm lugs are newer than the ones with 16 mm lugs and should be with "B"-logo movements (but there are many legitimate watches with 16 mm lugs and "B" logo movement, because the logo changed before the cases); 2809A was reserved for Volna and Vostok simple (because at some point all Chistopol watches were rebranded as "Vostok" and the former Volna became 22 jewels "Vostok" without "Precision"), while Vostok Precision should have 2809 movement. The 18-jewels 2809B is typical for Almaz watches, never Vostok, and could be seen with both "ЧЧЗ" and "B" logo, which means that the production of Almaz stopped somewhere after the introduction of a new factory logo, but before the brands reorganization. The earlier 2809 with ЧЧЗ logo have larger jewels. The movements from 1957 - 1960 have year and quarter of production stamped on the bridge, while these from 1961 - 69 are not dated. Some movements after 1961 are gold plated; the ones found in VP watches are usually gold-plated, but there are some non-precision movements which also are gold-plated. So if you find a VP without production year stamp, which is not gold-plated, there is a good chance that it is franken, but a gold plating is not a sufficient proof of precision movement."


----------



## Lucky_Luke

schnurrp said:


> From an informative thread on this subject (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html):
> 
> "I have been collecting Vostok 2809 for two years and the more I learn about it, the more puzzled I am. A few things seem relatively established - e.g. the movements with „ЧЧЗ" logo are older than the ones with „В" logo; the cases with 18 mm lugs are newer than the ones with 16 mm lugs and should be with "B"-logo movements (but there are many legitimate watches with 16 mm lugs and "B" logo movement, because the logo changed before the cases); 2809A was reserved for Volna and Vostok simple (because at some point all Chistopol watches were rebranded as "Vostok" and the former Volna became 22 jewels "Vostok" without "Precision"), while Vostok Precision should have 2809 movement. The 18-jewels 2809B is typical for Almaz watches, never Vostok, and could be seen with both "ЧЧЗ" and "B" logo, which means that the production of Almaz stopped somewhere after the introduction of a new factory logo, but before the brands reorganization. The earlier 2809 with ЧЧЗ logo have larger jewels. The movements from 1957 - 1960 have year and quarter of production stamped on the bridge, while these from 1961 - 69 are not dated. Some movements after 1961 are gold plated; the ones found in VP watches are usually gold-plated, but there are some non-precision movements which also are gold-plated. So if you find a VP without production year stamp, which is not gold-plated, there is a good chance that it is franken, but a gold plating is not a sufficient proof of precision movement."


Thank schnurrp for your infomation.
So this Vostok Precision 22 jewels cal: 2809 (whichs is on eBay) is chronometer and legit or not?


----------



## Lucky_Luke

schnurrp said:


> From an informative thread on this subject (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html):
> 
> "I have been collecting Vostok 2809 for two years and the more I learn about it, the more puzzled I am. A few things seem relatively established - e.g. the movements with „ЧЧЗ" logo are older than the ones with „В" logo; the cases with 18 mm lugs are newer than the ones with 16 mm lugs and should be with "B"-logo movements (but there are many legitimate watches with 16 mm lugs and "B" logo movement, because the logo changed before the cases); 2809A was reserved for Volna and Vostok simple (because at some point all Chistopol watches were rebranded as "Vostok" and the former Volna became 22 jewels "Vostok" without "Precision"), while Vostok Precision should have 2809 movement. The 18-jewels 2809B is typical for Almaz watches, never Vostok, and could be seen with both "ЧЧЗ" and "B" logo, which means that the production of Almaz stopped somewhere after the introduction of a new factory logo, but before the brands reorganization. The earlier 2809 with ЧЧЗ logo have larger jewels. The movements from 1957 - 1960 have year and quarter of production stamped on the bridge, while these from 1961 - 69 are not dated. Some movements after 1961 are gold plated; the ones found in VP watches are usually gold-plated, but there are some non-precision movements which also are gold-plated. So if you find a VP without production year stamp, which is not gold-plated, there is a good chance that it is franken, but a gold plating is not a sufficient proof of precision movement."


Thank schnurrp for your infomation.
So this Vostok Precision 22 jewels cal: 2809 (whichs is on eBay) is chronometer and legit or not?


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Thank schnurrp for your infomation.
> So this Vostok Precision 22 jewels cal: 2809 (whichs is on eBay) is chronometer and legit or not?


If it's 2809 movement I think you're okay. Back says "2809A". Balance wheel is hiding the end of the body designation so you can't confirm the existence of "A" or not. There is a question. Ask for another picture.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

schnurrp said:


> If it's 2809 movement I think you're okay. Back says "2809A". Balance wheel is hiding the end of the body designation so you can't confirm the existence of "A" or not. There is a question. Ask for another picture.


I see these photos carefully, I think it's 2809 movement but caseback says "2809A". I guess it is not original.


----------



## dj898

I don't think this is legit.

Raketa 24H Antarctic Submariner 24 Hours Russian Military Watch 2623 H | eBay

what's your thought on this one?
still looks pretty - only if it's far cheaper


----------



## dutchassasin

Well the watch is offered by a well known Raketa collector Samun, i doubt he will sell a fake. Ive seen a few different variations of this design but all with a different minute ring. Below are two examples i managed to find quickly, there are more out there but cant remember where i saw those. The first blue one is of Samun and the green one is in the hands of Dimy.


----------



## schnurrp

From '92 Raketa catalog:









An example of true "skeleton" hands, not just lumed hands that have lost their lume.


----------



## kev80e

Could you take a look at this and give your opinions / comments. I only have my mobile at the minute ,so struggling with finding images to compare it too.Many thanks guys.


----------



## stadiou

The movement and probably the case originated in St Petersburg, however I'm not so sure about the dial. Certainly that lower script looks suspiciously like 1mwf Kirova to me from the somewhat blurred picture and if that's the case then the dial is the work of a frankenmeister. 1mwf and Raketa are very different concerns.


----------



## kev80e

stadiou said:


> The movement and probably the case originated in St Petersburg, however I'm not so sure about the dial. Certainly that lower script looks suspiciously like 1mwf Kirova to me from the somewhat blurred picture and if that's the case then the dial is the work of a frankenmeister. 1mwf and Raketa are very different concerns.


 Thanks Stadiou a clearer picture seems to confirm it.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Thanks Stadiou a clearer picture seems to confirm it.


Yes, a relatively common redial. I have a few. Not like your common redials, in my opinion, as the vast majority of these have obviously been used for many years and are therefore not a modern creation made for the sole purpose of turning a profit. A few other members took to referring to these as "non-factory originals" rather than "franken". I think this title is a bit more suitable.

According to legend, an Armenian watchmaker used to make these dials in Plovdiv back in the days of communism. The rumors claim that the dials were baked in an oven in the final stage of the creation process, but the rest is kept a secret. I've heard this story multiple times with very little variation. I'd love to believe it's true, but I have no idea.

You can read more here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/info-about-raketa-paketa-rocket-432176.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/tiny-rocket-raketa-826800.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/yes-ok-happened-me-ive-got-frankened-but-518782.html


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Yes, a relatively common redial. I have a few. Not like your common redials, in my opinion, as the vast majority of these have obviously been used for many years and are therefore not a modern creation made for the sole purpose of turning a profit. A few other members took to referring to these as "non-factory originals" rather than "franken". I think this title is a bit more suitable.
> 
> According to legend, an Armenian watchmaker used to make these dials in Plovdiv back in the days of communism. The rumors claim that the dials were baked in an oven in the final stage of the creation process, but the rest is kept a secret. I've heard this story multiple times with very little variation. I'd love to believe it's true, but I have no idea.
> 
> You can read more here:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/info-about-raketa-paketa-rocket-432176.html
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/tiny-rocket-raketa-826800.html
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/yes-ok-happened-me-ive-got-frankened-but-518782.html


Thanks mroatman , maybe I should have got it, love that rocket logo. Maybe one without the incorrect factory sometime if spot it .


----------



## mpowerful

Lucky_Luke said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's 2809 movement I think you're okay. Back says "2809A". Balance wheel is hiding the end of the body designation so you can't confirm the existence of "A" or not. There is a question. Ask for another picture.
> 
> 
> 
> I see these photos carefully, I think it's 2809 movement but caseback says "2809A". I guess it is not original.
Click to expand...

Looks like the 2809a was for the volna and 2809 for vostok. What does the face look like? Volna or vostok? My guess is you just got one that someone put a volna case back on. Anyway this link has great information on the chronometre grade movement.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-...80.html#/forumsite/20758/topics/733380?page=2


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Thanks mroatman , maybe I should have got it, love that rocket logo. Maybe one without the incorrect factory sometime if spot it .


Well, I'll just spot it for you 

Vintage USSR RAKETA 2603 Soviet Men`s Wristwatch 16 Jewels Gold Plated | eBay

And it comes from a very kind seller to boot!









You can tell it's a redial because this one is printed over another Raketa dial (look closely and you can see the intentions from the original "slash" hour markers). Plus, like most of these, the movement is a 16-jewel 2603 while the dial states 17 jewels. The vast majority of these have this mismatch. On the plus side, you get a nice early Petrodvorets 2603 movement inside. Do note the hairline crack in the crystal between 8 and 9 o'clock.

I agree, this little rocket logo is quite endearing. I really love this dial design, and that's not something I usually say about redials. They're not all that common, either, so if you have any interest, I'd pick this one up as it looks to be in overall good shape.

By the way, another way to confirm these are redials is the fact that the same dial pattern appears on other watches across numerous other "manufacturers". The best way to tell is the distinct font on the numbers, especially the number seven, or the conspicuous 1МЧЗ им Кирова letting on what are rarely 1MWF watches. You can see a "Ctapt" below, but I've also seen a variation of this dial appear on "Kirovskie", "Slava", and "Volna".









(Vintage Russian Soviet Watch Start 2MCHZ 17JEWELS | eBay)


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Could you take a look at this and give your opinions / comments. I only have my mobile at the minute ,so struggling with finding images to compare it too.Many thanks guys.


Hey Kev, looks like the original watch in question is back up, along with his brother, just in case you prefer the chrome variety 

RAKETA 17 J Cal 2609 I 1MCHZ Kirovskie U RARE Vtg USSR Mens Wind Up Watch 60s | eBay

RAKETA 16 J Cal 2603 PCHZ â€œRocketâ€� Dial Vtg USSR Mens Wind Up Watch 60s RARE | eBay


----------



## Dimy

dj898 said:


> I don't think this is legit.
> 
> Raketa 24H Antarctic Submariner 24 Hours Russian Military Watch 2623 H | eBay
> 
> what's your thought on this one?
> still looks pretty - only if it's far cheaper


truly authentic. Well... the price is a different story.


----------



## Dimy

dutchassasin said:


> Well the watch is offered by a well known Raketa collector Samun, i doubt he will sell a fake. Ive seen a few different variations of this design but all with a different minute ring. Below are two examples i managed to find quickly, there are more out there but cant remember where i saw those. The first blue one is of Samun and the green one is in the hands of Dimy.


The second one is no more in my possession - sold it as I didnt quite liked it, plus the stains on the dial. Went for $100. hope here in the group, the buyer never contacted me back.


----------



## stadiou

Can't quite decide if this one's kosher or not. Please help.
Pobeda 2602 1949 Year Militari Men&apos;s Vintage Soviet Wristwatch Mechanical Ussr | eBay


----------



## Dimy

stadiou said:


> Can't quite decide if this one's kosher or not. Please help.
> Pobeda 2602 1949 Year Militari Men&apos;s Vintage Soviet Wristwatch Mechanical Ussr | eBay


Looks like the hands are changed, also not sure about the lume. Might be just refinished dial. Not original for me but don't quote me on this - I might be wrong.


----------



## dche1172

Hello everybody,

I am new to the forums and have recently gained an interest in watches.

I am searching for information regarding whether this watch is authentic and, possibly a price guide.

Any help will be very appreciated.

Thank you


----------



## mroatman

stadiou said:


> Can't quite decide if this one's kosher or not. Please help.
> Pobeda 2602 1949 Year Militari Men&apos;s Vintage Soviet Wristwatch Mechanical Ussr | eBay


No comment on authenticity, I'm honestly not sure. The dial does look suspiciously good for such an old watch, but that doesn't mean it's fake. I would be concerned that there are no movement pictures, and if you're seriously considering this one, I would request a few movement shots from the seller. Also bear in mind that this is a very small watch. I love the design, but it would be too small to wear, in my opinion.

In the end, the price of the 1MWF box alone is around $30-50 (according to recent sales), so if get a 'free' watch thrown in, however authentic, I'd say you're pulling out ahead.


----------



## schnurrp

stadiou said:


> Can't quite decide if this one's kosher or not. Please help.
> Pobeda 2602 1949 Year Militari Men's Vintage Soviet Wristwatch Mechanical Ussr | eBay


Does not look right to me. Hand lumed dials are often rough in outline of numerals but are usually following some printed number underneath which often can be seen and the size of the numerals are consistent unlike that one.

Also a small detail the second hand should match the hour/minute hands, in my opinion.

And I would also like to see a place of manufacture printed on the dial, although this is not always present but when it is it helps authenticate the dial.

I would not be buying this watch except if I needed that movement and it was pretty cheap. I couldn't use the case because it is very tiny.


----------



## mroatman

dche1172 said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I am new to the forums and have recently gained an interest in watches.
> 
> I am searching for information regarding whether this watch is authentic and, possibly a price guide.
> 
> Any help will be very appreciated.
> 
> Thank you


Hi dche1172, and welcome to the forums. You've reached the Russian watch section. You'll want to post your Omega authenticity request here:

Omega Fake Busters


----------



## dche1172

Hi mroatman, 

Thank you for your directions. 

I had also realised but only after I posted.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Does not look right to me. Hand lumed dials are often rough in outline of numerals but are usually following some printed number underneath which often can be seen and the size of the numerals are consistent unlike that one.
> 
> Also a small detail the second hand should match the hour/minute hands, in my opinion.
> 
> And I would also like to see a place of manufacture printed on the dial, although this is not always present but when it is it helps authenticate the dial.
> 
> I would not be buying this watch except if I needed that movement and it was pretty cheap. I couldn't use the case because it is very tiny.


Also under magnification one can see the printing of the dial appears to be hand made (error between subdial and main minute track and inconsistent out-of-round hour dot surrounds to name two).


----------



## stadiou

Dial does look pretty rough on second look. Movement shot on the listing details towards the bottom of the page are seemingly correct with a 3-49 quarter date.
As for the rest .....


----------



## schnurrp

stadiou said:


> Dial does look pretty rough on second look. Movement shot on the listing details towards the bottom of the page are seemingly correct with a 3-49 quarter date.
> As for the rest .....


I wonder if they were luming dials in '49? This is very early for soviet wrist watches.

Also the blued hands on a black dial, even if lumed, don't make much sense to me.


----------



## DavidUK

Any thoughts on this Pobeda? I've no reason to believe it's dodgy although the seller is from Ukraine and I've never seen such a dial before, and can't seem to find any catalogues to check. Thanks.


----------



## Danilao

What is this? ;-)










SoVViet and made in CCCCP :-/


----------



## emoscambio

Danilao said:


> What is this? ;-) SoVViet and made in CCCCP :-/


Bravvvi Cinnnesi!


----------



## mroatman

What's going on here? Dial, movement, hour, and minute hand look good. Second hand comes from a Pobeda? Case from a Volna? Crown from who-knows-where? Would that all fit together?


----------



## schnurrp

DavidUK said:


> Any thoughts on this Pobeda? I've no reason to believe it's dodgy although the seller is from Ukraine and I've never seen such a dial before, and can't seem to find any catalogues to check. Thanks.
> 
> View attachment 5525617


Similar dial, different color scheme found by Googling "Pobeda watch".


----------



## dj898

The below one looks like using same case as Poljot Aviator but didn't know they offered this type of dial.
What's the consensus on this one?

Soviet Military Mechanical Watch Raketa Aviator 24 Hours CAL 2623 H Serviced | eBay


----------



## Danilao

This is also nice, fake-komandirskie (zakaz, obiouvsly) of front...










...and fake-orient on back 










;-)


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

what is about this Poljot 17j? Is it legit or franken?
link: B?n tin: 806667 | Ph? Mua Bán | PHOMUABAN


----------



## Dimy

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all,
> 
> what is about this Poljot 17j? Is it legit or franken?
> link: B?n tin: 806667 | Ph? Mua Bán | PHOMUABAN


Looks fully legit to me.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dimy said:


> Looks fully legit to me.


 What's about the crown? Legit or not?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> What's about the crown? Legit or not?


Mine has a different crown, but I'm not sure if it is original. See HERE.


----------



## emoscambio

Danilao said:


> This is also nice, fake-komandirskie (zakaz, obiouvsly) of front... ...and fake-orient on back  ;-)


 Two wrongs don't make a right!


----------



## mroatman

Well, it's not completely clear from the catalog, but I'd say pretty close:

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5665878618958793714&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## mroatman

^ replying to Luke.


----------



## fliegerchrono

Just bought this one at a watchfair, price was good and the watch nice enough to wear it even if it is a franken, but is it....?


----------



## S.H.

Looks legit to me!|>


----------



## schnurrp

From Michelle's collection with different bezel:


----------



## dutchassasin

There seems to be quite a few variations of the RR, does this generalskie look ok? First thing i noticed it has a flat head crown instead of the more common rounded. The pink and red colours seems to have faded a bit but everything looks ok when compared to others on the forum.


----------



## SinanjuStein

dutchassasin said:


> There seems to be quite a few variations of the RR, does this generalskie look ok? First thing i noticed it has a flat head crown instead of the more common rounded. The pink and red colours seems to have faded a bit but everything looks ok when compared to others on the forum.


Something feels odd about that dial. It says "Generalskie" instead of Komadirskie, yet i'm unsure as if such a Generalskie dial exists.


----------



## Ham2

SinanjuStein said:


> Something feels odd about that dial. It says "Generalskie" instead of Komadirskie, yet i'm unsure as if such a Generalskie dial exists.


It is correct. The radio room dial was found also found in this generalskie configuration.


----------



## GUTuna




----------



## Dimy

^ looks right - Sturmaskie Poljot chrono, movement looks right too, just the missing Sturmanskie on the dial. I can;t say is it a mistake, or purposely done or what else.


----------



## dutchassasin

Regarding that sturmanskie, check page 128. Replaced balance-wheel and it looked like it was missing its original stainless case. 
Dimy, this dial is legit and does indeed not have sturmanskie written on it like the grey painted ones.


----------



## dutchassasin

Pfew, glad i asked the seller of that RR some questions. Turns out its a franken!! Doesnt have the original caseback saying waterproof and automatic and second it doesnt even have an automatic movement inside. BRRR stay away...


----------



## Ham2

dutchassasin said:


> Pfew, glad i asked the seller of that RR some questions. Turns out its a franken!! Doesnt have the original caseback saying waterproof and automatic and second it doesnt even have an automatic movement inside. BRRR stay away...


 Pretty sure the generalskie RR in my collection is hand wound (it is packed away so I now need to go find it)


----------



## polmax3133

The entire movement on the Sturmanskie was replaced and dates to 1996/7.


----------



## birch01

Hello everyone,

Could someone please share your opinion of this one? Dial is suppose to be aftermarket, the rest original if I understood things correctly from the seller.


----------



## Ham2

birch01 said:


> Hello everyone, Could someone please share your opinion of this one? Dial is suppose to be aftermarket, the rest original if I understood things correctly from the seller.


Nothing original about that 'OKEAH'. Fake dial, plated case, pushers and crowns, likely plain case back, repaired movement. A franken. Don't waste your money.


----------



## birch01

Thanks.


----------



## miroman

Hi all,

Maybe month ago I bought this:

  

In a domestic forum a respectable member noticed that maybe the bridges are not from the same movement. 
I think the guilouche pattern is the same (and I haven't seen such til now, nor in 1MChZ or 2MChz), only the "lines" are misplaced.

What do you think, is it OK?

Regards, Miro.


----------



## storyteller

I think you have the genuine article - the ПЧЗ triangle and the 1947 date are a match, I think. Sorry I missed the discussion on the domestic forum.


----------



## schnurrp

miroman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Maybe month ago I bought this:
> 
> 
> 
> In a domestic forum a respectable member noticed that maybe the bridges are not from the same movement.
> I think the guilouche pattern is the same (and I haven't seen such til now, nor in 1MChZ or 2MChz), only the "lines" are misplaced.
> 
> What do you think, is it OK?
> 
> Regards, Miro.


Here's an early one (no Penza logo) from this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/very-early-chchz-k26-1949-a-635518.html

Another: Early USSR made Pobeda watches - Blogs - National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors Message Board

At this early date perhaps stripes lining up were not considered necessary. I don't know about the rest of the watch. Appears to be a red twelve dial might be authentic (with a painting) but the hands I'm not so sure about.


----------



## miroman

schnurrp said:


> Appears to be a red twelve dial might be authentic (with a painting) but the hands I'm not so sure about.


Thank you very much.

Yes, I noticed that the hands are gilt instead of black. 
Tried to replace them, but the painting doesn't allow to tell the time. 
Hands just merge with the painting, maybe that's why when the dial was painted, the hands were replaced with gilt.

Regards, Miro.


----------



## elsoldemayo

What are your thoughts on this Sekonda.


----------



## Ham2

elsoldemayo said:


> What are your thoughts on this Sekonda.


Looks to be all original


----------



## elsoldemayo

Ham2 said:


> Looks to be all original


Phew, because it'd being delivered today 

Thanks Ham. On a side note, when are ever going to see a full posting of your collection? You always post the most drool worthy watches.


----------



## kev80e

elsoldemayo said:


> Phew, because it'd being delivered today


Very envious , maybe next year .


----------



## elsoldemayo

kev80e said:


> Very envious , maybe next year .


I got lucky with this one. The seller didn't mention Gagarin, Strela, space, 3017 etc., just Sekonda chronograph so it flew under the radar a little. I'd bid on half a dozen in the last few months but they all sold for > £350/€500 so I lost out. Fingers crossed you find one soon as the prices are getting silly - Sekonda 19 Jewels Chronograph Ussr CCCP Soviet 1964 5 Year 23929 Serviced 3017 | eBay


----------



## elsoldemayo

double post!


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

I'm interested in this Vostok 22j watch. But I don't know it is original or franken? 
Can you help me?


----------



## stadiou

Franken made out of a mixture of Vostok/Volna/Almaz parts. Giveaway being 22j on dial 18j on movement !


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Ok. What is about this Poljot de luxe 23j? Legit or franken? What is about the crown?


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Ok. What is about this Poljot de luxe 23j? Legit or franken? What is about the crown?


Crown looks okay to me dial and hands too and case (a lot of wear at the crown entrance). Case back is from a Luch. I would want to see the movement.


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Ok. What is about this Poljot de luxe 23j? Legit or franken? What is about the crown?


Crown looks okay to me dial and hands too and case (a lot of wear at the crown entrance). Case back is from a Luch. I would want to see the movement.


----------



## mroatman

I've never seen a Poljot de luxe 2209 with that font on the logo! Notice the bolder typeface and the "J", which has a full cross at the top.


----------



## mroatman

By the way, I'm not suggesting it's fake, just rare. I would love to snag one of those.


----------



## Ham2

elsoldemayo said:


> Phew, because it'd being delivered today  Thanks Ham. On a side note, when are ever going to see a full posting of your collection? You always post the most drool worthy watches.


Thanks for the compliment. One day I will. But that will involve finding spare time - something the wife, kids and job get in the way of


----------



## elsoldemayo

Ham2 said:


> Thanks for the compliment. One day I will. But that will involve finding spare time - something the wife, kids and job get in the way of


You could always send me all your watches and I'll find time to take the pics and post them. ;-)

Even if life does mean you don't have time for a full collection post the pics you do post along with the knowledge shared is much appreciated |>


----------



## dutchassasin

While browsing the bay i came across this contraption. A raketa amphibian with a stone bezel. Raketa did make some funky looking gemstone watches and dials but this is really strange to say the least.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

My friend has just bought a Poljot 17j watch. Size: 35. So can you tell me it is legit or fake? 
Thank you very much.


----------



## kev80e

elsoldemayo said:


> I got lucky with this one. The seller didn't mention Gagarin, Strela, space, 3017 etc., just Sekonda chronograph so it flew under the radar a little. I'd bid on half a dozen in the last few months but they all sold for > £350/€500 so I lost out. Fingers crossed you find one soon as the prices are getting silly - Sekonda 19 Jewels Chronograph Ussr CCCP Soviet 1964 5 Year 23929 Serviced 3017 | eBay


It is true that sometimes sellers descriptions can be your friend. I just picked this up .








Apparently an 18 jewel quartz . Not sure how to replace the battery though


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all,
> 
> My friend has just bought a Poljot 17j watch. Size: 35. So can you tell me it is legit or fake?
> Thank you very much.


This is from a very popular family of Poljots (I say this because there are a lot of them around in good condition to collect) that appeared in the early '70s. They had decent size, were fairly slim, and didn't fool around with a date function. With their snap-on backs they weren't very water proof, though. This one looks okay to me except the crown has probably been replaced. The crown pictured in the catalogs is much smaller and I have one with such a crown and it is uncomfortable to wind. An owner may have had the crown replaced to improve the usability. The watch does not look like it has gotten enough use for the crown to have worn out.

It's not clear in the picture but tradition would dictate the second hand should extend to the perimeter marks but notice the catalog pictures:

















Spasibo!


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear mr schnurrp and mr miroman,

What is about this Poljot 23j?


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear mr schnurrp and mr miroman,
> 
> What is about this Poljot 23j?


My opinion: All authentic except crystal, and second hand which should match other hands. Crown may be a replacement but if it is it's not as obvious as some you will see.

From 1970 catalog showing length of second hand. I have included Cyrillic description to see if hands finish is addressed if you want to take the time to translate.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I think all authentic except crown (I can not see in detail because this catalog is old with black and white). One point I let you see the number 12 in my watch looks different from 1970 catalog (number 2 is larger). 
It's my opinion. And you?



schnurrp said:


> My opinion: All authentic except crystal, and second hand which should match other hands. Crown may be a replacement but if it is it's not as obvious as some you will see.
> 
> From 1970 catalog showing length of second hand. I have included Cyrillic description to see if hands finish is addressed if you want to take the time to translate.


----------



## mroatman

Yes, there were two versions of this watch. Here is the catalog entry for yours:

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5814459474940392770&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## schnurrp

Yes, there were two versions, evidently. Here's one I own:









And another of mine, a 17 jewel 2609 slim version with the smaller "12":









This radial number dial is a favorite of mine.


----------



## kev80e

I am hopefully going to purchase an Okeah soon and have some I would like your expert opinions on if possible please guys. 
genuine USSR navy chronograph watch OCEAN okean poljot 3133 perfect | eBay

USSR Poljot Okean Ocean Shturmanskie Komandirskie Pilot 3133 Chronograph Watch | eBay

1MChZ OKEAH OKEAN STURMANSKIE POLJOT 3133 CHRONO WATCH USSR NAVY 80s | eBay

Thanks for any help.


----------



## MattBrace

Kev, for me the first 2 have issues with hands, hour and minute hands on the first, large chrono seconds hand and small one on the second example. the third example looks pretty good, but rather expensive? I'm no expert though.

Cheers


----------



## kev80e

MattBrace said:


> Kev, for me the first 2 have issues with hands, hour and minute hands on the first, large chrono seconds hand and small one on the second example. the third example looks pretty good, but rather expensive? I'm no expert though.
> 
> Cheers


Thanks Matt, now you have said yes the hands on the first one ,should be silver?
I did think the big chronograph hand on the second looked to thin as mentioned by Polmax somewhere.
I agree the third is a little expensive , I may see if I can work on that.


----------



## MattBrace

the hands on the first are modern replacements lume does not match the dial and the shape of them is different to original ones.


----------



## kev80e

Cheers I see now, I think I had something else off the third seller, will have to check.


----------



## mroatman

I'd wait for Polmax to chime in, but in large part I agree with Matt.

First watch seems to have had the hour and minute hands replaced and/or relumed. Notice the lume is bright blue, as opposed to faded on the hour markers.









Second watch has a replaced chrono hand and later movement.

Third watch also seems to have the later movement. Notice the chronograph wheels are "yellow" as opposed to "silver":


----------



## kev80e

Thanks , is it feasible that a later Okeah, which I believe was produced into the 80's could have gold wheels which were introduced in 1982? I'm not sure , just trying to get things straight in my head .


----------



## Ham2

3rd one has newer movement with one piece reset lever and newer date font.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Thanks , is it feasible that a later Okeah, which I believe was produced into the 80's could have gold wheels which were introduced in 1982? I'm not sure , just trying to get things straight in my head .


I believe so -- not positive -- but I always like to see "silver" wheels just to be sure!


----------



## kev80e

This is a very interesting search and seems to turn up a lot that have been altered. Glad I can get help here, then there is also the distractions , love these blue hands.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> I believe so -- not positive -- but I always like to see "silver" wheels just to be sure!


Nice but the one piece lever as noted by ham2 is a dead give away. I could believe yellow wheels with the two piece lever at the end of the run similar to the early sturmanskies.


----------



## MattBrace

As far as I am aware the one piece lever came in around 1986-87, so I guess its possible it could be one of the last run.


----------



## kev80e

Seems looking at Polmax's guide that both the gold wheels and 1 piece lever were introduced whilst Okeah's were in production so maybe this is possible. I think at least from my point of view getting the correct dial and hands would take preference if I had to choose , although an earlier movement would be better than a newer one.


----------



## kev80e

Having given this some thought, maybe the first one would be the best option. This movement is correct and I think , could be wrong, that getting a set of hands is more likely so that I can replace them, although matching the lume could be a problem. Thanks for your help really appreciated. In the meantime I will continue to search for some more.


----------



## elsoldemayo

kev80e said:


> Having given this some thought, maybe the first one would be the best option. This movement is correct and I think , could be wrong, that getting a set of hands is more likely so that I can replace them, although matching the lume could be a problem. Thanks for your help really appreciated. In the meantime I will continue to search for some more.


For a purchase of this significance I'd be willing to wait until the right one comes along. A couple of the watches I bought in haste while in the early 3133 frenzy have small problems which I decided to ignore at the time, but now they make me wish I'd hung on and found a 'perfect' specimen.
You want to appreciate this watch for years and not be thinking, if only I could change those hands, that lume is bugging me.


----------



## kev80e

elsoldemayo said:


> For a purchase of this significance I'd be willing to wait until the right one comes along. A couple of the watches I bought in haste while in the early 3133 frenzy have small problems which I decided to ignore at the time, but now they make me wish I'd hung on and found a 'perfect' specimen.
> You want to appreciate this watch for years and not be thinking, if only I could change those hands, that lume is bugging me.


Your right, it would bug me. The third one I think having looked at others is a late one and at a better price worth pursuing. But not at its present price. Maybe a cheeky offer is in order.


----------



## kev80e

Just seen this , was hoping somebody can take a look . Rubbish pictures and I only have my kindle at the moment so really hard to see.The laptop decided to take on the kitchen floor.















Thanks for any help.


----------



## Ham2

kev80e said:


> Just seen this , was hoping somebody can take a look . Rubbish pictures and I only have my kindle at the moment so really hard to see.The laptop decided to take on the kitchen floor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.


 The dial is authentic - only issue is the oil stain on the constant seconds subdial. Movement looks okay but can't tell if case is chrome and beed to see the stamped xaseback.


----------



## gekos

kev80e said:


> This is a very interesting search and seems to turn up a lot that have been altered. Glad I can get help here, then there is also the distractions , love these blue hands.
> View attachment 5790754


Franken


----------



## kev80e

Ham2 said:


> The dial is authentic - only issue is the oil stain on the constant seconds subdial. Movement looks okay but can't tell if case is chrome and beed to see the stamped xaseback.


Thanks Ham2, didn't realise that was an oil stain.The what appears to be a darker dial threw me a bit. Guess I still have a lot to learn .Case back.


----------



## gekos

kev80e said:


> Just seen this , was hoping somebody can take a look . Rubbish pictures and I only have my kindle at the moment so really hard to see.The laptop decided to take on the kitchen floor.
> View attachment 5861170
> 
> View attachment 5861178
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.


Without picture of the caseback is very suspicious and this case looks like chrome.
After you posted pictures of caseback I think that it looks OK. Little concern about the dial but can't be shure from this pictures.
I'll say 90%...

Here genuine (on the right) and fake dial side by side.


----------



## kev80e

gekos said:


> Without picture of the caseback is very suspicious and this case looks like chrome.
> After you posted pictures of caseback I think that it looks OK. Little concern about the dial but can't be shure from this pictures.
> I'll say 90%...
> 
> Here genuine (on the right) and fake dial side by side.
> 
> View attachment 5863026


Thanks gekos, very helpful .Think I'll ask for some better pictures. The seller's pictures of other watches are better which I find a little suspicious. Was there a black Okeah? I'm not able to find any.I've also noticed a gap on the continuous seconds dial which normally overlaps the other markings.


----------



## kev80e

Thanks for your help with this guy's. I have taken your advice and not settled for any yet. I'm still not sure about the whole gold wheels 2 part reset lever thing. So that aside I've come across this one. I believe the 4 digit serial number makes it pre 1989. Would like your opinions .


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Thanks for your help with this guy's. I have taken your advice and not settled for any yet. I'm still not sure about the whole gold wheels 2 part reset lever thing. So that aside I've come across this one. I believe the 4 digit serial number makes it pre 1989. Would like your opinions .


Looks like a reproduction dial and modern chrono hand, but the photos aren't super clear.


----------



## Ham2

The dial is a fake.


----------



## kev80e

Thanks again.My concerns were the lume colour and the cross line in the H looked high. Still no laptop but on here wasn't easy to see if the sub dials are even sunk.


----------



## polmax3133

I think that wee should start our own Okeah store on eBay where enthusiasts can purchase Okeahs built or pre purchased with original components. We can then say only buy from us.

Many sellers are misleading/ripping off Soviet Russian watch enthusiasts.


----------



## kev80e

polmax3133 said:


> I think that wee should start our own Okeah store on eBay where enthusiasts can purchase Okeahs built or pre purchased with original components. We can then say only buy from us.
> 
> Many sellers are misleading/ripping off Soviet Russian watch enthusiasts.


I must admit it's a nightmare. I haven't seen one decent original one yet for sale but lots that are wrong. Your guide is a massive help though but I'm still learning and without the help on here wouldn't even attempt to buy an Okeah.


----------



## kev80e

Me again.With the scare Okeah eluding me I have turn my attention to my other big want. What do you think of this one please. Thanks for your input.


----------



## dutchassasin

Kev80, hope you get your pc fixed asap. How do you expect us to make a good decision based on a pixelated image of a watch?
Let me post some clear images:


----------



## kev80e

dutchassasin said:


> Kev80, hope you get your pc fixed asap. How do you expect us to make a good decision based on a pixelated image of a watch?


Sorry , a link may be better.


----------



## dutchassasin

kev80e said:


> Sorry , a link may be better.


No need to say sorry bro. Its just not doable with your pictures to make out the details. You can remove the link if you want, i already put up some better quality pictures.


----------



## kev80e

dutchassasin said:


> No need to say sorry bro. Its just not doable with your pictures to make out the details. You can remove the link if you want, i already put up some better quality pictures.


Cheers , laptop back at the weekend. Got my daughter's but can't work it


----------



## kev80e

From my research I think both the sub dial hands should be red. Found one with these but with the wrong crown. argh.


----------



## elsoldemayo

kev80e said:


> From my research I think both the sub dial hands should be red. Found one with these but with the wrong crown. argh.


Based on this one and these ones you're right about the hands. Also, it might just be the angle but the crown seems a little thick.


----------



## kev80e

elsoldemayo said:


> Based on this one and these ones you're right about the hands. Also, it might just be the angle but the crown seems a little thick.


Ha the same pictures I used . At least I got something to work too now.Thanks guys.


----------



## kev80e

Decision made , hopefully this is OK can't see any problems. Hope pics are good too


----------



## dutchassasin

I am by no means an expert, but that 19 jewel plate looks to have a different colour than the rest of the movement. Perhaps some more experienced members could shed some light on it.


----------



## kev80e

dutchassasin said:


> I am by no means an expert, but that 19 jewel plate looks to have a different colour than the rest of the movement. Perhaps some more experienced members could shed some light on it.


Think this is normal, compared to others like this. Had to check though.

Images for ID: 0262


----------



## dutchassasin

kev80e said:


> Think this is normal, compared to others like this. Had to check though.
> 
> Images for ID: 0262


Ok, better safe than sorry. At first glance it looks good though but im not an expert on these watches.


----------



## kev80e

Deal done , should be on my wrist tomorrow.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

I buy this Rakera watch. I take some photos, so is it legit or franken? What is about the crown? Legit or not? 
Thank you.


----------



## schnurrp

Appears to be mostly authentic when compared to this one found in a '72 catalog. The catalog example has a 16 jewel 2609 while yours has the 17 jewel 2609.I movement. I don't know if the movement was replaced or a 17 jewel model was made by Raketa. The crown appears a little fat when compared to the catalog picture but it's too close to call. I also would like to see the back with an impression as shown below instead of plain.


----------



## mroatman

Mine has the 2609.I movement as well. Probably a variation. See HERE. Yours looks good except for the generic case-back, which I believe should have the "shockproof" impression as stated by schnurrp. I think your crown is authentic, and I believe mine is replaced.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear mr mroatman and schnurrp,

I find another watch on eBay. It has 2609 movement with 16 jewels. So is it original?

RAKETA 16 J Cal 2609 Vtg Gold Plated AU 12 5 USSR Mens Wind Up Watch 60s | eBay


----------



## mroatman

Crown looks like mine -- might be replaced. Otherwise, looks fine to me.


----------



## Ham2

So I am looking at this 300m Amphibian tonneau with arrow hands and thinking to myself that the case is wrong - the lines of the case from the side should be a continuous curve rather than squared off in the middle and one of the lugs (upper right) looks a bit bigger than the others. Are my aging eyes playing tricks on me again?


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

I've just found this Vostok gold on eBay. Maybe I will buy it. 
So, is it original?
I show some photos below.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I've just found this Vostok gold on eBay. Maybe I will buy it.
> So, is it original?
> I show some photos below.


Looks ok to me and appears to be a match for this one in the 1976 catalogue. I have the same model in blue.


----------



## schnurrp

Ham2 said:


> So I am looking at this 300m Amphibian tonneau with arrow hands and thinking to myself that the case is wrong - the lines of the case from the side should be a continuous curve rather than squared off in the middle and one of the lugs (upper right) looks a bit bigger than the others. Are my aging eyes playing tricks on me again?
> View attachment 5993618
> View attachment 5993642
> View attachment 5993658


It has to be authentic, in my opinion, Ham. Perhaps an adjustment error on a certain run through the milling station although I must say I don't see the differences you reference.

One must ask, if this case is not "authentic" where did it come from? What else could it have been used for?


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I've just found this Vostok gold on eBay. Maybe I will buy it.
> So, is it original?
> I show some photos below.


It looks like to me it may have the wrong hands. It should have the lumed hands as shown in elsoldemayo's catalog example considering the existence of the tiny lume dots at each numeral location.

It's hard to tell from the pictures but under magnification it appears it may have a very thin lume slots on the hands. I would confirm this with the seller before considering a buy.


----------



## Ham2

schnurrp said:


> It has to be authentic, in my opinion, Ham. Perhaps an adjustment error on a certain run through the milling station although I must say I don't see the differences you reference. One must ask, if this case is not "authentic" where did it come from? What else could it have been used for?


 I think it is just my eyes. It does look legit. I was under the impression that the milling to give the curvature to the side of the case differed between the 300m and 200m cases. But I've looked at additional vintage tonneaus in my collection and even there, there are variations in the case milling. However looking at a'300m tonneau in my collection, the sunburst effect on the top of the case looks more pronounced on the 300m - so I do think it is authentic.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

schnurrp said:


> It looks like to me it may have the wrong hands. It should have the lumed hands as shown in elsoldemayo's catalog example considering the existence of the tiny lume dots at each numeral location.
> 
> It's hard to tell from the pictures but under magnification it appears it may have a very thin lume slots on the hands. I would confirm this with the seller before considering a buy.


I think the hands without lume is original. elsoldemayo's catalog says in description:


> 34mm dial, gold-plated case, 10 um plating, stainless steel back. White silver-plated dial with radial line, raised golden batons and figures of house scale and calendar port frame, black print, five-minute divisions are coated with fluorescent paints, gold-plated hands of variable section.




















So, Have no any lume in its hands.


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> I think the hands without lume is original. elsoldemayo's catalog says in description:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, Have no any lume in its hands.


Maybe, but the catalog picture does not match the printed description which I suppose can happen from time to time. I think it's a mistake.

The use of non-lumed hands on a lumed dial results in a watch that cannot be used in the dark so what's the point in luming the dial?


----------



## Lucky_Luke

schnurrp said:


> Maybe, but the catalog picture does not match the printed description which I suppose can happen from time to time. I think it's a mistake.
> 
> The use of non-lumed hands on a lumed dial results in a watch that cannot be used in the dark so what's the point in luming the dial?


I think this watch is original except lumed spots on dial.


----------



## elsoldemayo

schnurrp said:


> Maybe, but the catalog picture does not match the printed description which I suppose can happen from time to time. I think it's a mistake.
> 
> The use of non-lumed hands on a lumed dial results in a watch that cannot be used in the dark so what's the point in luming the dial?


Hard to tell in the pics Luke posted, but in the zoomed in view on the ebay listing there is a thin layer of that appears to be lume on the hands. You can kind of see it on the end of the minute hand in the first pic Luke posted, the reflection is not on the centre of the hand. It may just have worn off over time.
Also the hands on the red and blue dialled version of that watch have the same shape.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear @schnurrp and @elsoldemayo,

This is red dial version: vostok 2214


----------



## mroatman

Luke, the Vostok with a silver dial seems (to me) to have lume on both the hands and the dial. Looks fine to me. The version with the red dial has no lume on the hands or the dial -- also fine by my eye.

I think both Vostoks presented on this page are legit and we're all in violent agreement


----------



## fliegerchrono

Is this one legit?


----------



## schnurrp

fliegerchrono said:


> Is this one legit?


No.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

What's about Raketa 16j? Legit or franken?


----------



## S.H.

Look globally legit, but:
- crown probably replaced, a little too big imho
- some varnish discolouration on the dial? one side is white, the other yellow


----------



## mroatman

S.H. said:


> Look globally legit, but:
> - crown probably replaced, a little too big imho
> - some varnish discolouration on the dial? one side is white, the other yellow


Exactly what I would have said.


----------



## Cocktailhour

How dodgy is this one?


----------



## schnurrp

Cocktailhour said:


> How dodgy is this one?


Did amil describe this one as "homage", meaning not authentic from Chistopol?

Amil is knowledgeable on the authentic items that don't appear in the catalog. Me, I just depend on the catalogs mostly and this one is not found there.

Problems:

Appears to have been re-lumed.

Has the swordfish logo usually found on Cornavin-branded dials.

From anyone else I wouldn't give it a second look but worth considering, I suppose if you like it and amil's story.


----------



## Ham2

I saw that and thought it looked 'fishy' (pun intended). All the soviet built Cornavins I have seen say Cornavin (not Vostok) and don't have CCCP on the dial. The fish looks hand drawn. And at $250, it is pricey, even if it is a 'homage'.


----------



## schnurrp

I own this "fishy" 18 jewel 2809:


----------



## Ham2

schnurrp said:


> I own this "fishy" 18 jewel 2809:


At least it says cornavin


----------



## amil

Cornavin this is a topic for another discussion


----------



## amil

schnurrp said:


> Problems:
> 
> Appears to have been re-lumed.
> 
> Has the swordfish logo usually found on Cornavin-branded dials.


wrong. not re-lumed.. a new


----------



## schnurrp

amil said:


> wrong. not re-lumed.. a new





amil said:


> Cornavin this is a topic for another discussion


I can accept that. Things are not always as they appear.

"Cornavin" is a bit of a mystery.


----------



## amil




----------



## dutchassasin

I cant vouch for the authenticity but that Cornavin sword fish logo is pretty well made. It would take quite alot of skill to paint such a little fish with all the details like the eye and the striping on the fin.


----------



## REDSWAN13

dutchassasin said:


> I cant vouch for the authenticity but that Cornavin sword fish logo is pretty well made. It would take quite alot of skill to paint such a little fish with all the details like the eye and the striping on the fin.


Interesting dutchassasin it would be a lot of work & skill involved, what would be the point?
Heres my Cornavin/Vostok 2214 for a quick comparison.










Aha just read Ham2s post & noticed the price!


----------



## Ham2

REDSWAN13 said:


> Interesting dutchassasin it would be a lot of work & skill involved, what would be the point? Heres my Cornavin/Vostok 2214 for a quick comparison. Aha just read Ham2s post & noticed the price!


Those are quite different looking swordfish


----------



## REDSWAN13

Ham2 said:


> Those are quite different looking swordfish


I seem to remember reading somewhere that its a Marlin not a Swordfish but as Amil says maybe thats a topic for another discussion.
It has been painted on with some skill though.


----------



## dhexcxr

I have found a very beat-up Volna/Vostok from '58. The face and hands look like they are from a Volna, except the second hand, though I've only seen that style of embossed numbers in black, not gold. I think the case is Volna though the crown is also replaced.

Some differences I've noticed between Volna movements and Vostok Precision movements I've looked at are a dot or arrow beside the balance wheel mount or beveled holes for the two jewels on....the larger plate.......with the winding ratchet thing. Neither of those were telling in finding out if a certain movement is or isn't a Precision. The only really good indicator I've noticed is the "crispness" of the engraving on the factory mark, the jewel count, etc. These here look pretty nice to me.

I also noticed most movements I found that were identifiable as non-Precision from that year have a much lower serial number, while the numbers from true Precisions are higher, like this one I've found. Is there any logic to the serial numbers? Are they produced in order?

What does everyone think of this unidentified watch?


----------



## dhexcxr

Whoops, that's from '59. Anyway, are there any other sure ways to tell if the early 2809 movements are or are not Precision? I


----------



## mroatman

dhexcxr said:


> Anyway, are there any other sure ways to tell if the early 2809 movements are or are not Precision?


The short answer, in my opinion, is "no".

There are numerous not-so-sure ways, however, and lots of debate on the issue. It gets so complicated that I've given up even trying. Here's some light reading for you 

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/three-generations-vostok-precision-740114.html


----------



## dhexcxr

Yea, I had skimmed the first page of those threads and that's where I got most of my info.

I just finished reading them all and on page 4 of "]three generations of Vostok Precision" OhDark30 posted a picture of his Volna:







which has the crown and typography of the watch I found, though OhDark30's watch has a later movement.

I've seen the hour and minute hand from mine on a different Volna, but the case I think is something else. It looks like the pin in the lugs might be fixed. The mysteries continue.....


----------



## mroatman

Those do look like fixed lugs, but the case otherwise appears fine to me. Somebody probably just jammed a couple pieces of metal in between the lugs of an original Volna case which gives the appearance of fixed lugs. I think the case is fine. Same with the crown; it's the right size and shape, though it's obviously replaced from a newer 2809. I also think the hands are original. The only thing clearly incorrect on your watch is the second hand, but this is unfortunate because these are difficult to find.

I have a number of Volnas (Volnae?) that you can compare against. Yours looks like one of the final two:

http://mroatman.wix.com/watches-of-the-ussr#!volna/c193y


----------



## mroatman

And by the way, the general consensus is that Volnas do not have precision movements (i.e. chronometer-grade). These were reserved only for the Vostok Precision line. Same movement, same caliber, different "class". But again, theories abound.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> And by the way, the general consensus is that Volnas do not have precision movements (i.e. chronometer-grade). These were reserved only for the Vostok Precision line. Same movement, same caliber, different "class". But again, theories abound.


That theory has always made sense to me, otherwise, why the "precision" designation on the dial? The other theory that makes sense to me is that movements for the precision line were identified by testing in the factory for accuracy. This is a nightmare for collectors, though, since no further identification (other than it's in a 2809 precision watch) was provided, it seems. All we are left with, then, is hoping for provenance that it left Chistopol with its current movewment, a somewhat rare occurrence with the 2809s.


----------



## dhexcxr

Thanks for all the info, y'all.

How about one more interesting Vostok...

It looks like this has a 3rd generation movement:









but (in my admittedly short time researching these) I've never seen this interesting "B" Boctok logo paired with a dial like this.....I think I've only seen it with non-Precisions so far.









So what do all you experts think of this example?


----------



## mroatman

dhexcxr said:


> Thanks for all the info, y'all.
> 
> How about one more interesting Vostok...
> 
> It looks like this has a 3rd generation movement:
> 
> but (in my admittedly short time researching these) I've never seen this interesting "B" Boctok logo paired with a dial like this.....I think I've only seen it with non-Precisions so far.
> 
> So what do all you experts think of this example?


You're right that it is a later movement; the use of that 'circled B' logo didn't begin until around 1964, I believe.

I think that if this watch is all original, the movement inside is certainly precision/chronometer-grade. It says so on the dial. But there are few ways to confirm if this movement and dial were originally paired together. Plus, the damaged dial + replaced second hand suggests this watch was apart at some time and likely does not consist of all original pieces anymore. Who knows.


----------



## dhexcxr

I decided to purchase the second watch! I found some other examples of the same watch hand configuration so I'm not too worried about those being replacements.

I absolutely love this style of dial, and I saw someone else call that a rocket ship Boctok logo, which makes sense and is super cool.

This is my first Russian and my first mechanical watch as well. My plan is to find a suitable band to match the gold and put a clear caseback on it so can admire that fantastic movement anytime I want.

Thanks for your help and advice!


----------



## dhexcxr

I decided to purchase the second watch! I found some other examples of the same watch hand configuration so I'm not too worried about those being replacements.

I absolutely love this style of dial, and I saw someone else call that a rocket ship Boctok logo, which makes some sense and is super cool as well.

This is my first Russian and my first mechanical watch. My plan is to find a suitable band to match the gold case and put a clear back on it so can admire that fantastic movement anytime I want.

Thanks for your help and advice!


----------



## mroatman

Nice choice. I believe the hour and minute hands are blued steel, and the second hand should be red as per the catalog (I know, not the exact same dial).

Here is one (soon to be) in my collection with what I believe to be the original handset:









Enjoy your watch!


----------



## dhexcxr

I see, the correct one has an arrow point and slightly different shape. I did find the one on mine on another Vostok so at least it's genuine (not some random spare) even if not completely correct. I really like the blued hands.

Thanks for the catalog link, I meant to ask if anyone had that handy. Is there a page linking to all the known internet available catalogs?


----------



## mroatman

dhexcxr said:


> Is there a page linking to all the known internet available catalogs?


Most people here use Sergey Antonov's page (https://picasaweb.google.com/113098239036073221216), but I find a more exhaustive list of catalogs is available on this Italian forum.


----------



## mroatman

And by the way, most of the watches on my website are linked to the relevant catalogs; just hover over the photo thumbnail and click "Go to link".


----------



## schnurrp

dhexcxr said:


> Thanks for all the info, y'all.
> 
> How about one more interesting Vostok...
> 
> It looks like this has a 3rd generation movement:
> 
> View attachment 6086850
> 
> 
> but (in my admittedly short time researching these) I've never seen this interesting "B" Boctok logo paired with a dial like this.....I think I've only seen it with non-Precisions so far.
> 
> View attachment 6086866
> 
> 
> So what do all you experts think of this example?


So you bought this one with a pretty rare dial. I hope you like it. I would probably have passed on it because of what looks like a dial foot coming through the dial between 5 & 6 and what looks like some pretty severe wear at the winding area of the case. These cases were defective in that the walls were so thin they were often worn away by repeated winding, especially the gold-plated models, until it became difficult to install the back and retaining ring due to loss of threads, to ensure some water and dust tightness. See below:


----------



## dhexcxr

schnurrp said:


> ...I would probably have passed on it because of what looks like a dial foot coming through the dial between 5 & 6 and what looks like some pretty severe wear at the winding area of the case.


Ah-ha, I was wondering what that red spec on the face was. Thank you for the warning about the worn case as well. I do like the look of this one a lot and I feel like I got a pretty good deal based on what I was seeing other VPs listed for.

Is there any fancy technique a professional can use to repair the case/threads if the wear gets really bad?


----------



## schnurrp

dhexcxr said:


> Ah-ha, I was wondering what that red spec on the face was. Thank you for the warning about the worn case as well. I do like the look of this one a lot and I feel like I got a pretty good deal based on what I was seeing other VPs listed for.
> 
> Is there any fancy technique a professional can use to repair the case/threads if the wear gets really bad?


Not really. A replacement of that common case would be the easiest. I've seen the 2809 transplanted to a modern stainless steel case offered for sale and I believe this solution is popular with some of the Russian forum comrades not so picky about authenticity. Maybe yours will be workable and you won't need to access the movement that often. I've owned a couple with backs that were quite difficult to replace because of this problem but I was always able to get them back on with enough tries, although in the most severe cases you could see the stainless retaining ring looking from the side.

The dial foot problem, if that's what it is, is not worth fixing. Just be careful if you ever remove the dial that you don't break the foot off.

All things are relative so a dial you really like at a fair and reasonable price is okay. I hope it is in good working order as this will make up for a host of other little problems. A good working 2809 with that huge balance can be a very enjoyable and solid timepiece to wear.

Enjoy!


----------



## 4R36

Hello guys, I need your opinion. What do you think of the dial of this vympel?

I'm sure about the movement, but not so sure about the dial (I also know that the crown is clearly replaced).









Thank you very much for your help!

Nicola


----------



## schnurrp

The only difference I see in your dial, Nicola, is so small it probably isn't important.

Look at the slashed hour markers. Do you see any difference between the example below and the one you posted? Anyone else?


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> The only difference I see in your dial, Nicola, is so small it probably isn't important.
> Look at the slashed hour markers. Do you see any difference between the example below and the one you posted? Anyone else?


I am very confident that both styles of 'slash' markers are authentic. I own examples of both (thin and thick) and I believe it was just a small production variation. A similar dial variation is also found on the Kosmos.

As an interesting aside, subsequent production of 2209s split these dial variants between watch manufacturers. By that, I mean the 'thin slash' appears to have been reserved for Luch, while the 'thick slash' style was used by Poljot. This seems consistent by the models produced by Minsk and 1MWF, whereas the Vympels are a mixed bag.

Nicola, if you're consider that watch from eBay, please PM me. It is listed on Aukro and I can help you buy it for far cheaper than the eBay price. Or, if you speak/read Ukrainian, you can purchase directly fro Aukro yourself.


----------



## 4R36

Many thanks Schnurrp and Mroatman. When I read your posts on the movement 2209 some months ago I decided to have one of these beautiful watches. Thanks to your knowledge I also opened a thread in the italian forum of which I am a member, to tell tell the history of this caliber and to show some pictures of your amazing collections. Everyone really appreciated that!

I waited a long time to find a vympel in good condition (specifically I do not like dials which are too much ruined by the time) and this one seemed to me the right one. The problem was precisely that there is this little difference between thick and thin slash markers and I was not sure whether they are both authentic. Problem solved ;-).

Mroatman, you are very kind. Unfortunately I have already bought the watch. I made an offer and the seller accepted it. Probably I still paid too much but for my first vympel I can turn a blind eye. 

Many thanks again guys!


----------



## mroatman

4R36 said:


> Many thanks Schnurrp and Mroatman. When I read your posts on the movement 2209 some months ago I decided to have one of these beautiful watches. Thanks to your knowledge I also opened a thread in the italian forum of which I am a member, to tell tell the history of this caliber and to show some pictures of your amazing collections. Everyone really appreciated that!
> 
> I waited a long time to find a vympel in good condition (specifically I do not like dials which are too much ruined by the time) and this one seemed to me the right one. The problem was precisely that there is this little difference between thick and thin slash markers and I was not sure whether they are both authentic. Problem solved ;-).
> 
> Mroatman, you are very kind. Unfortunately I have already bought the watch. I made an offer and the seller accepted it. Probably I still paid too much but for my first vympel I can turn a blind eye.
> 
> Many thanks again guys!


I'm glad you found such a nice Vympel; they aren't too common. And don't worry about the price. Value is entirely subjective.

I just had a look at your thread on the Italian Forum. Really great write-up! It's wonderful that you can share this information with those who don't speak English.

Please post photos of the Vympel when it arrives. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to see more from you in the future


----------



## Duckyone

I could use some reassurance in the authenticity of this Luch 2209. I currently hold an offer from the seller who dropped the price after I inquired about general condition and including a strap. Sorry for the photo quality - screen capturing with my phone didn't grab the full resolution it appears.


----------



## mroatman

Duckyone said:


> I could use some reassurance in the authenticity of this Luch 2209. I currently hold an offer from the seller who dropped the price after I inquired about general condition and including a strap. Sorry for the photo quality - screen capturing with my phone didn't grab the full resolution it appears.


Looks good!


----------



## schnurrp

Duckyone said:


> I could use some reassurance in the authenticity of this Luch 2209. I currently hold an offer from the seller who dropped the price after I inquired about general condition and including a strap. Sorry for the photo quality - screen capturing with my phone didn't grab the full resolution it appears.


A classic Luch design with the wonderful Luch trademark of the time. I don't generally like Roman numeral watches but this one is the exception. The radially arrange numerals are so elongated that they begin to lose their identity as numbers and become a pleasing abstract pattern to my eye. All that having been said, I've never owned one.


----------



## WatchUSSR

Luch 100 % original .


----------



## willjackson

Hello friends!
I picked this one up because the case caught my eye (including the caseback).

When I received it, the dial looked suspiciously new, but I think I see the Zim mark within the movement. Is this a new dial put on an old Zim Pobeda?

Thanks for any help!


----------



## willjackson

.


----------



## mroatman

willjackson said:


> Hello friends!
> I picked this one up because the case caught my eye (including the caseback).
> 
> When I received it, the dial looked suspiciously new, but I think I see the Zim mark within the movement. Is this a new dial put on an old Zim Pobeda?
> 
> Thanks for any help!


I don't know about the dial, it does look pretty suspicious. But I've been proven wrong so many times, I'll just say I have no idea and leave it at that.

Movement looks fine to me. And the caseback is cool!


----------



## schnurrp

This old thread may shed some light: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/another-acquisition-pobeda-zim-2602-movement-616092.html

About all I can say is in my opinion, not franken. Beyond that, who knows?


----------



## willjackson

schnurrp said:


> This old thread may shed some light: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/another-acquisition-pobeda-zim-2602-movement-616092.html
> 
> About all I can say is in my opinion, not franken. Beyond that, who knows?


 What an interesting read! The mystery of this dial goes back to 2010! It's either a tourist item or it's a cheap award given at a research center. Why would a cheap tourist item have an institute listed on it that is only found on internal CIA documents? Why would a research institute use Pobeda's instead of Vostoks? Why is Pobeda spelled in Latin? What's up with the daily timing specs on the caseback? Lots of questions... It seems that I might never know the answers. But who cares, it's awesome looking wrist candy!


----------



## willjackson

Post script: I have seen photos of four different watches and on each one, the six digit serial number stamped on the back is different. I have several counterfeit Komandirskies and the stamped serial number on the back is the SAME for each (cheaper to make one stamp without changing the numbers). If this is a tourist watch, why go through so much trouble stamping all that info on the caseback? Especially since it's just a cheap Zim Pobeda? Unless the budget for prize watches was small and this was all they could afford?


----------



## dutchassasin

Comrades need your expertise, could this be a Armeyskie prototype watch? I heard they never did go through with the military contract.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/maktime-vostok-armeyskie-watches-new-476346.html


----------



## Arizone

dutchassasin said:


> Comrades need your expertise, could this be a Armeyskie prototype watch? I heard they never did go through with the military contract.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/maktime-vostok-armeyskie-watches-new-476346.html


The bezel and case definitely match one of those prototype pictures. Nice find!

The contract did go through more recently, you can see my thead:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/new-vostok-design-military-models-1957633.html


----------



## dutchassasin

Took the gamble and the seller accepted my offer. The bezel is not your typical vostok one and i cant imagine someone going through the trouble of making a copy. Fingers crossed its the real deal  . 

The caseback reads: АМНЧ-1 short for "армейских механических наручных часов" this translates to "Army mechanical watches". There where plans for 4 different watches, nr1 should stand for hand winding and intended for lower ranking army personnel .


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

I'm bidding this Poljot 29j automatic on eBay. I don't know it is original or not. Please help me.


----------



## Markcerenzia

I need to know if real or fake asap


----------



## dutchassasin

Im sorry Markcerenzia, you are in the wrong forum. We can only help you with Russian watches. That being said i have no knowledge about MK but my gut feeling tells me to run away very quickly. Look at the caseback, its a press fit one shouldnt it have a screwback like other mk watches. Look at back side of the sleeve of one of the pushers it looks plain and not ribbed.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Deal all,

Is this watch legit or not?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Deal all,
> 
> Is this watch legit or not?


Besides the crown, yes. See here and here.


----------



## sonics

What do you think?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G900F mit Tapatalk


----------



## Ham2

sonics said:


> What do you think? Gesendet von meinem SM-G900F mit Tapatalk


Possibly relumed. Case back is mismatched (Latin rather than Cyrillic)


----------



## sonics

What about the hands? 

Gesendet von meinem SM-G900F mit Tapatalk


----------



## Ham2

sonics said:


> What about the hands? Gesendet von meinem SM-G900F mit Tapatalk


 The hour and minute hands are the correct style though the second hand is a replacement - should be a mini-meatball type


----------



## T4VI

Is that real? I have one just like that, with SU 2623.H movement in it NOS... bought from Moscow at early 90'ies... Image is not my own but it's identical.


----------



## dutchassasin

This is the first time i see a holographic 24 dial. Raketa did make holographic dials of their standard designs so this might as well be original. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/holographic-raketa-big-zero-1038701.html


----------



## mroatman

What do you think -- a very rare dial signature or a complete fake?

Mаховой? Centrifugal?


----------



## schnurrp

Two conditions having to do with the printing of the dial strike me: the name is off center and the font of hour markings is inconsistent in size and form. The "0" in "10" does not appear to match the "1" (too small) the "3" has a wavy top, and the "2" in "12" and the "2" don't match. Whether this means that I am seeing distortion from the crystal or the dial is authentic but hand-painted is another question to which I have no answer.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Two conditions having to do with the printing of the dial strike me: the name is off center and the font of hour markings is inconsistent in size and form. The "0" in "10" does not appear to match the "1" (too small) the "3" has a wavy top, and the "2" in "12" and the "2" don't match. Whether this means that I am seeing distortion from the crystal or the dial is authentic but hand-painted is another question to which I have no answer.


Thanks for this. Confirms my hesitations. These printing inconsistencies paired with the fact that I've never seen this signature anywhere, including Mark Gordon's extensive Type-1 collection, gives me enough doubt to pass it up.


----------



## mroatman

Here's a strange one...home-lumed Molnija? Case and crown look like they could be original, but I am curious about the dial and hands. Looks like someone's personal project to me.


----------



## stadiou

Odd lloking Volna spotted on e-bay - I rather like the design but I'm pretty certain that it's a redial of sorts. Confirm my suspicions please.
USSR Russian Watch Wostok Volna#100N | eBay


----------



## schnurrp

stadiou said:


> Odd lloking Volna spotted on e-bay - I rather like the design but I'm pretty certain that it's a redial of sorts. Confirm my suspicions please.
> USSR Russian Watch Wostok Volna#100N | eBay


Consider your suspicions confirmed, as far as I'm concerned, comrade.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Here's a strange one...home-lumed Molnija? Case and crown look like they could be original, but I am curious about the dial and hands. Looks like someone's personal project to me.
> 
> View attachment 6305570
> 
> 
> View attachment 6305578
> 
> 
> View attachment 6305586


I think you've got it right, Dashiel. Hard to believe a black dial would have been made with black (or blued) hands.


----------



## marblestone

Shameless screenshots from an eBay bid. Could you help me?


----------



## schnurrp

Looks okay to me from what I can observe except the designation on the back may be 2809A and the movement should be a precision model as noted on the dial, 2809. Back may have been replaced.....or movement? Can't really tell from pictures even under magnification.

Has the look to me of even wear instead of a collection of parts with various ages.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Thoughts on this....


----------



## marblestone

schnurrp said:


> Looks okay to me from what I can observe except the designation on the back may be 2809A and the movement should be a precision model as noted on the dial, 2809. Back may have been replaced.....or movement? Can't really tell from pictures even under magnification.
> 
> Has the look to me of even wear instead of a collection of parts with various ages.


Thanks.

Seems like I will leave this,as being the chronometer one was the appeal of this one


----------



## Ham2

elsoldemayo said:


> Thoughts on this....


Looks correct though the dial is a bit grubby


----------



## elsoldemayo

Ham2 said:


> Looks correct though the dial is a bit grubby


Phew, it was a forgotten bidnapper win that I wasn't sure about so low-balled it some time last week (well low'ish by 3017 standards) then forgot to check back and do a bit of research, so mild panic set in when I got the win confirmation email. Thanks Ham. Loving your new 3017 too btw


----------



## Ham2

elsoldemayo said:


> Phew, it was a forgotten bidnapper win that I wasn't sure about so low-balled it some time last week (well low'ish by 3017 standards) then forgot to check back and do a bit of research, so mild panic set in when I got the win confirmation email. Thanks Ham. Loving your new 3017 too btw


 I was watching that auction with idle curiosity. You got that for a very fair price (but still more than I paid for mine  )


----------



## elsoldemayo

Ham2 said:


> I was watching that auction with idle curiosity. You got that for a very fair price (but still more than I paid for mine  )


It seems you got an absolute bargain given the condition of your latest purchase, but I'm happy considering some of the eye watering prices 3017's go for even with obvious re-dials. A good end to my first year collecting watches


----------



## azura123

I was eager to get stumanskie 3133. I saw at ebay this watch. Please confirm its legit or not.








Sent from my MI 2SC using Tapatalk


----------



## WindUpToy

Rather than start a new thread, I thought this seemed like a reasonable thread to post in. Please let me know if forum protocol would suggest that I start a new thread.

So, looking for advice as to which of the following versions (for domestic or for export and blue vs. black face) of the Raketa 24 Hour is more intrinsically valuable (assuming equal condition).

Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

WindUpToy said:


> Rather than start a new thread, I thought this seemed like a reasonable thread to post in. Please let me know if forum protocol would suggest that I start a new thread.
> 
> So, looking for advice as to which of the following versions (for domestic or for export and blue vs. black face) of the Raketa 24 Hour is more intrinsically valuable (assuming equal condition).
> 
> Thanks


Neither is authentic from Raketa factory as pictured in catalogs. Origin? Unknown. Cases from perpetual calendar model, 24 hour case has lugs.

I would save my money.


----------



## schnurrp

azura123 said:


> I was eager to get stumanskie 3133. I saw at ebay this watch. Please confirm its legit or not.
> View attachment 6458633
> 
> 
> Sent from my MI 2SC using Tapatalk


More pictures needed but case looks chrome-plated to me, should be all stainless steel. This later model of the sturmanskie should have 31659 hacking movement, a variation of the 3133.

Dial looks okay except it appears to have been re-lumed and there are some who doubt the authenticity of the blunt hands. Should have special sturmanskie back.

Look here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html


----------



## WindUpToy

schnurrp said:


> Neither is authentic from Raketa factory as pictured in catalogs. Origin? Unknown. Cases from perpetual calendar model, 24 hour case has lugs.
> 
> I would save my money.


Excellent! Thanks very much for the insight - I do feel like I'm walking around in the dark but, that can be quite enjoyable. Great to have knowledgeable guides.

Will post another query shortly...


----------



## WindUpToy

Okay, here is another query about two similar watches. They seem to be versions of the same but from different periods (top more recent). Are the hands in either, or both, appropriate? Are there any other questionable aspects to them?

Thanks


----------



## WindUpToy

Other than the crown in the newer one...


----------



## mroatman

Both are what we'd call "fantasy dials" -- modern reproductions. Neither are authentic.

About those flashy Raketa 24-hour models, they're quite strange. There are so many of them out there, all nearly identical in style (i.e. not your typical franken), but as schnurrp says, origin unknown. Curious.


----------



## WindUpToy

mroatman said:


> Both are what we'd call "fantasy dials" -- modern reproductions. Neither are authentic.
> 
> About those flashy Raketa 24-hour models, they're quite strange. There are so many of them out there, all nearly identical in style (i.e. not your typical franken), but as schnurrp says, origin unknown. Curious.


So, there's enough interest in these watches for people to be creating repros and making new designs, based on the aesthetics of old ones? I find that to be quite fascinating.


----------



## mroatman

WindUpToy said:


> So, there's enough interest in these watches for people to be creating repros and making new designs, based on the aesthetics of old ones? I find that to be quite fascinating.


Well, yes and no. There are common reproduction dials, such as those for the 15j or 17j Sturmanskie "Gagarin". These are often trying to fool unsuspecting buyers into purchasing what they are led to believe is the genuine article.

The dials you show above are not based on any historical design, to my knowledge, but rather what many buyers expect a Russian/Soviet watch _should _look like (e.g. lots of Cyrillic text, different patterns and emblems, etc.).

Here is an example of both: a Sturmanskie knock-off with lots of gratuitous Cyrillic text and that all-too-common sub-second dial with only half the indices. What practical use that would offer, I don't know.


----------



## WindUpToy

mroatman said:


> Well, yes and no. There are common reproduction dials, such as those for the 15j or 17j Sturmanskie "Gagarin". These are often trying to fool unsuspecting buyers into purchasing what they are led to believe is the genuine article.
> 
> The dials you show above are not based on any historical design, to my knowledge, but rather what many buyers expect a Russian/Soviet watch _should _look like (e.g. lots of Cyrillic text, different patterns and emblems, etc.).
> 
> Here is an example of both: a Sturmanskie knock-off with lots of gratuitous Cyrillic text and that all-too-common sub-second dial with only half the indices. What practical use that would offer, I don't know.


I'm back in school - and loving it!


----------



## mroatman

WindUpToy said:


> I'm back in school - and loving it!


Me too. I am far from expert and learn something new every day on these forums. The wealth of knowledge here is staggering. Just make sure your #2 pencil is sharpened, there are a lot of notes to take!


----------



## ThePossumKing

mroatman said:


> Me too. I am far from expert and learn something new every day on these forums. The wealth of knowledge here is staggering. Just make sure your #2 pencil is sharpened, there are a lot of notes to take!


Especially when they get arguing about Factory 5 (or was it Factory 53?) o|


----------



## WindUpToy

mroatman said:


> Me too. I am far from expert and learn something new every day on these forums. The wealth of knowledge here is staggering. Just make sure your #2 pencil is sharpened, there are a lot of notes to take!


At the risk of sounding sycophantic, knowledgeable _and_ helpful. |>


----------



## azura123

schnurrp said:


> More pictures needed but case looks chrome-plated to me, should be all stainless steel. This later model of the sturmanskie should have 31659 hacking movement, a variation of the 3133.
> 
> Dial looks okay except it appears to have been re-lumed and there are some who doubt the authenticity of the blunt hands. Should have special sturmanskie back.
> 
> Look here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html


Thank you very much for the insight. I really appreciate and your link is very helpful. In that thread it only shown sharp hands, no blunt hands just shown in the picture. probably the hands has been cut LOL. who knows.


----------



## Geoff Adams

azura123 said:


> Thank you very much for the insight. I really appreciate and your link is very helpful. In that thread it only shown sharp hands, no blunt hands just shown in the picture. probably the hands has been cut LOL. who knows.


 On the subject of the blunt hands - I think they are probably original. I have a stainless steel 31659 with blunt hands (shown below), and was wondering whether they are original or not, however there has been an official catalogue shown on the forum with an image of the same 31659 as mine with the blunt hands in the watch in that picture. So, we do have solid evidence for these hands being original. The link exists in a thread somewhere, and I reposted it in another thread in a conversation similar to this, but it might take some finding&#8230;


----------



## azura123

Geoff Adams said:


> On the subject of the blunt hands - I think they are probably original. I have a stainless steel 31659 with blunt hands (shown below), and was wondering whether they are original or not, however there has been an official catalogue shown on the forum with an image of the same 31659 as mine with the blunt hands in the watch in that picture. So, we do have solid evidence for these hands being original. The link exists in a thread somewhere, and I reposted it in another thread in a conversation similar to this, but it might take some finding&#8230;


Awesome! Thank you for your solid proof that it is original.


----------



## hockeyandbeers

Is there a thread like this for helping identifying a year or model? Just won one on the bay and have no idea about the year etc, I just liked the look of the watch


----------



## mroatman

hockeyandbeers said:


> Is there a thread like this for helping identifying a year or model? Just won one on the bay and have no idea about the year etc, I just liked the look of the watch


Determining the precise date of production is very hard and, unless the movement is date stamped, you likely won't get closer than a rough estimate. A good place to start is by browsing the catalogs to see if you can find a match. If so, the date of the catalog will give you a close approximation of when the watch might have been produced.

I'm sure someone will chime in here shortly with a link to the Raketa catalog with your watch in it


----------



## kamsau1

Try poljot24.de Julian have a quite a range of 3133. 

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## MattBrace

RUSSIAN POLJOT STURMANSKIE CHRONOGRAPH WATCH CCCP USSR SOVIET COSMONAUT AVIATOR | eBay

Its a tough call on the case, from the caseback picture It looks stainless as it compares well In the light between case and caseback, not sure about the crown looks plated to me and I agree its looks like the lume is different between the bezel lume dot and dial lume.

I don't know about the hands but if Geoff says yes I would agree. A nice looking example for the current price, I would ask for a Movement shot if it were me buying, just to confirm its a hacker (31659) and not a 3133 lurking inside.


----------



## Danilao

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

What do you think about this?









here the movement









ПЧЗ on dial and 2МЧЗ on the movement...
...ok, maybe a swapped movement, but I'm interested to know if the dial is original

Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Danilao said:


> What do you think about this?
> 
> View attachment 6500730
> 
> 
> here the movement
> 
> View attachment 6500738
> 
> 
> ПЧЗ on dial and 2МЧЗ on the movement...
> ...ok, maybe a swapped movement, but I'm interested to know if the dial is original
> 
> Thanks!


The dial looks hand-painted to me. The "A" in Pobeda is too small, for instance, the sub-dial has inconsistent line weight and is a bit wavy, and the hour and minute marks are quite inconsistent.

Furthermore, while there are many examples of watches with logos added to them with main watch identifying logo in place or replaced, I've never seen one with the logo rotated counterclockwise 90 degrees and placed on its side. This looks strange to me.


----------



## Danilao

The logo belongs to PFC Levski Sofia -> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFC_Levski_Sofia (*grazie Ocram!!!!!*)









I agree that the word "Pobeda" in that position is really strange. 
I not remember seeing watches with Pobeda in that position


----------



## kev80e

I know very little about these and would like your opinion if you could. 






















Think the crown is wrong myself but anything else I'm unsure.


----------



## Geoff Adams

kev80e said:


> I know very little about these and would like your opinion if you could.
> View attachment 6504866
> 
> View attachment 6504874
> 
> View attachment 6504882
> 
> 
> Think the crown is wrong myself but anything else I'm unsure.


It seems to check out to me Kev: Case seems fine, dial seems to check out, movement (definitely Type-1) markings hard to see but looks to be from 1936-1937: 

НКТП =Public commissariat for heavy industry
2ЧАСЗ-Д = 2nd Watch Factory
МОСКВА = Moscow

I see no reason why this piece shouldn't have cathedral hands. I agree with you about the crown, I think that is a replacement. Experts will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong on anything&#8230;


----------



## kev80e

Thanks Geoff , same conclusion as me . Could be my first purchase this year.


----------



## Geoff Adams

Looks great Kev - good luck!


----------



## Geoff Adams

Just a small point - upon very close inspection, do I notice a one or two of the teeth missing on the big wheel?


----------



## Straight_time

Pictures are a little blurry or with significant loss of detail, hard to judge by them alone. :think:

You're probably right about the crown, but IMHO it would be a very minor issue and also -just in case- a relatively easy fix.

Dial looks ok; couldn't really tell if hands are original and skeleton only (= almost total/total loss of lume), or have been relumed with a more whitish paint, or are modern copies: a better picture is definitely needed.









Being a 2nd MWF watch (see the two round logos on the plate - YELLOW arrows), the disc that holds the balance jewel (sorry, don't know its technical name - RED arrow) should look more golden-yellowish, but maybe it's because of the photo.

I'd have a little doubt about the originality of the balance assembly.
The balance bridge has a slightly more rounded edge if compared to the opposite bridge (RED circles); in my experience those pieces often show a very similar kind of machining, and a difference "could" (but doesn't necessarily "will") mean that the part had been repaired/substituted.
A better picture would allow to see if the surface finishing (Cote de Geneve, brushing, etc.) looks continuous or not, another easy clue.
The definitive proof could be obtained by disassembling the balance bridge and checking if the serial number stamped below corresponds to the one stamped on the plate...not an easy task indeed.

But it must also be considered that the balance staff is the most fragile part of the watch, and the easiest and commonly practiced repair consisted in replacing the whole broken balance assembly (bridge, jewel, wheel, spring, staff etc.) with a functioning one taken from a donor watch. 
Even though the date of production can't be seen on the photo, this watch dates back to 1937-1941 or so (that is, pre-war or WWII-years), it's a wristwatch and has a military-style dial; so should it bear signs of a repair that could have happened back then, I wouldn't use the same grading scale we apply with more recent productions and wouldn't consider it a franken.

Hope this helps...


----------



## kev80e

Geoff Adams said:


> Just a small point - upon very close inspection, do I notice a one or two of the teeth missing on the big wheel?


Had a look on the laptop , better pictures , all looks ok on there. Thanks for your help always appreciated.


----------



## Geoff Adams

A superbly informative analysis and critique Comrade Straight_Time - I learned a lot from that! Here's a similar movement from Lucidor's collection to compare:


----------



## kev80e

Thanks straight-time very informative. I can live with the possibility of a older repair and as you say this wouldn't really make it a frankin. The hands don't seem to be lumed, all lost over the years I assume which I prefer to a relume job.
I wouldn't dare remove the balance myself so this would have to wait to be discovered.


----------



## WindUpToy

Next up....

What the heck is going on here?! :-s:


----------



## stadiou

Looks like a movement swap to me.


----------



## mroatman

WindUpToy said:


> Next up....
> 
> What the heck is going on here?! :-s:


It could also be that only the date wheel has been replaced. Looks like the wheel used (and maybe entire movement) was intended for a watch with a date window at 6 o'clock, such as this one. The hands on this watch are also not original, and the case, while correct in style, should be glold-plated I believe (or perhaps a chrome version was produced as well, though I haven't seen this in any catalog).

For comparison, you can see my example and the 1989 catalog below


----------



## kev80e

Geoff Adams said:


> Looks great Kev - good luck!


Got it, now the wait! Got my eye on 2 others as well , both wanted for a while , could be a good start to 2016.


----------



## GR1FF

Just in case you missed this in the other thread, I'm really keen to get an expert view on this (currently en route from Tashkent via eBay). It's my first Russian watch & based on feedback so far think it might be a bit of a franken, but thankfully I didn't pay a huge amount for it







Any help gratefully received!

Griff


----------



## MattBrace

Griff, this is a correct example, the same as the one I own. I think yours is correct apart from the internal bezel ring and lume missing from hands + incorrect seconds hand.

Cheers


----------



## GR1FF

I have a feeling that it might be the other way around, i.e. Correct hands and bezel ring but incorrect dial in centre
The back of the case doesn't have the stamping yours does either


----------



## MattBrace

I think its safe then to say the movement and dial have made there way to a different case, the hour and minute hands are the correct ones for this dial but lack there original green lume work, the seconds hand is to long and looks to be of Vostok origin to me.


----------



## hockeyandbeers

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Any opinions on this. Just won it on eBay. Does it seem authentic. Any idea on year.

Any help or advice gratefully appreciated.


----------



## Mark Wilkinson

Originally Posted by *Mark Wilkinson* 
_Hi New here, hoping someone with more knowledge might be able to shed more light on this piece. From my rough translation and web research I can see it appears to be badged "northern fleet convoy" . Possibky "GZCH and Kirovskie"...? Then "3AK MO CCCP 1942" The listing per link shows some pics of the movement which I can't quite make out the engravings. The watch appears to have a 1948 date stamp on the inside of the case back. l've actually just bought it, perhaps stupidly without doing proper research.... But I liked the look of it! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks M

View item:_









View item:
Vintage Soviet WWII Military Naval Watch


----------



## mightbuythis

Hi all. I have posted another thread about this, I'll delete. Apologies.

I've found this watch for sale and found that it's a Poljot. Found some random blogs that referenced it as "Poljot Signal Alarm" - not sure if that's true or not seeing as the Poljot Signal's listed on this forum look quite different. Besides that I do like the look of this watch very much but I don't want it if it's not real.

I've noticed on the back of other Poljots above the serial there is a circle "marking" that the watch I am wanting to buy doesn't have. Example:









Could anybody here provide any feedback on the authenticity? It would be much appreciated! Pictures are below..


----------



## ThePossumKing

Mark Wilkinson said:


> Originally Posted by *Mark Wilkinson*
> _Hi New here, hoping someone with more knowledge might be able to shed more light on this piece. From my rough translation and web research I can see it appears to be badged "northern fleet convoy" . Possibky "GZCH and Kirovskie"...? Then "3AK MO CCCP 1942" The listing per link shows some pics of the movement which I can't quite make out the engravings. The watch appears to have a 1948 date stamp on the inside of the case back. l've actually just bought it, perhaps stupidly without doing proper research.... But I liked the look of it! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks M
> 
> View item:_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View item:
> Vintage Soviet WWII Military Naval Watch


Absolute fake and fantasy watch. Someone probably took a Molnija pocket watch, soldered some lugs on it to make a wrist watch case (see red circle) and printed up a fake dial. There is a marking on the movement which says "4-50" (see blue circle), which indicates that the watch was made in the 4th quarter of 1950. It's possible that the seller believed his description to be the truth, but it's not really probable...


----------



## MattBrace

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

All looks good to me. Approximate year is 1993-94 Transitional piece.

Enjoy



hockeyandbeers said:


> Any opinions on this. Just won it on eBay. Does it seem authentic. Any idea on year.
> 
> Any help or advice gratefully appreciated.


----------



## hockeyandbeers

Thank you MattBrace. Can't wait to get it. Seemed like a good deal at under $25


----------



## Honkball

I'm still a novice bit I'd say a komandirske model 349xxx w/ 2409 movement. Can one of the true gurus grade my answer? Nice catch hockeyandbeers


----------



## MattBrace

Honkball welcome to F10, indeed a type 34 case. Movement is a 2414 the same base as a 2409 but with the date complication.

I won't grade you, as were all still novices really.

Cheers



Honkball said:


> I'm still a novice bit I'd say a komandirske model 349xxx w/ 2409 movement. Can one of the true gurus grade my answer? Nice catch hockeyandbeers


----------



## freight

Can someone please let me know if this Vostok Komandirskie is legit or a franken? Possible time period if it's legit? Thanks,


----------



## SinanjuStein

Those hands are incorrect, and it seems like the minute and hour hands were painted with white paint (unsure about the pain).

Dial numerals and 5 minute intervals seem a bit off as well. Crown is also a bit unusual for these watches.

Dial, movement and case are correct for an older zakaz dirskie (About pre-1980~ish). As far as the hands, i haven't the slightest idea, but it's a franken.



freight said:


> Can someone please let me know if this Vostok Komandirskie is legit or a franken? Possible time period if it's legit? Thanks,
> 
> View attachment 6543498
> View attachment 6543506
> View attachment 6543514


----------



## Honkball

So close...thanks mattbrace


----------



## freight

I purchased this on eBay recently for $5 and change + shipping. Will someone please lend their expertise and let know if it is legit??


----------



## freight

Does anyone have an opinion on the watch above?


----------



## schnurrp

freight said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on the watch above?


looks okay to me. Early to mid-90s transitional komandirskie. Balance has been replaced.


----------



## Coug76

schnurrp speaks the truth as usual. There might also be a ding at :32 on the edge of the dial.


----------



## freight

Thanks guys! I appreciate it.


----------



## ffeingol

What do you guys think of this one? From other images I've been able to find the face, hour and minute hand seem correct. The second hand does not mach other images I've seen (they have a lume dot). The back of the case (shape), case back and movement (no model number stamped on it) seem different. Band is obviously not original


----------



## mroatman

Here's an interesting one:

Russian Vintage Watch POLJOT 1MCHZ Kirova USSR RARE Export | eBay

Looks like his stainless steel brother, only gold-plated, and with "15 Jewels" on the dial? Movement is, as expected, a 16-jewel 2408. What 15-jewel movement would belong in this watch?


----------



## maybe

Hello all, this is my first post here. You have a really nice and interesting site set up here and I enjoy browsing through the threads and learning about watches. I was wondering if one of the resident experts could help me determine whether or not these two Raketas are the real deal or fakes, or even something in between. I couldn't find either of these online however I found some very similar designs. I'd hate to have a fake in my hands so I'm hoping to get an answer.

The images of the watches are embedded below.

*Raketa #1*






















*Raketa #2*






















Thank you for taking the time to go over my post and the images attached.

Best regards


----------



## Straight_time

mroatman said:


> Here's an interesting one:
> 
> Russian Vintage Watch POLJOT 1MCHZ Kirova USSR RARE Export | eBay
> 
> Looks like his stainless steel brother, only gold-plated, and with "15 Jewels" on the dial? Movement is, as expected, a 16-jewel 2408. What 15-jewel movement would belong in this watch?


With a price tag of US$260 plus shipping, I'd expect/pretend the seller to be able to provide a good answer to your question.... ;-)


----------



## dutchassasin

I highly doubt the factory made a gold plated OKEAH, looks pretty sick though


----------



## Straight_time

maybe said:


> Hello all, this is my first post here.


Welcome to the forum! 

To my eye they both look ok but am no expert of the brand, you might want to wait until somebody more knowledgeable chimes in.

In the meantime you could have a look at Raketa's official website, where they published a few of their old Soviet-era catalogs:
http://www.raketa.com/default/?category_id=35


----------



## maybe

Hi, thanks. I can't quote you for some odd reason, it's giving me an error about not having enough posts, but I actually had a look at some of the catalogs that another user posted and both of the watches I asked about do indeed seem legit. Unfortunately, I overslept and missed one for $10 usd already. The catalogs you suggested seem much more comprehensive and have more models. Very useful, thanks.


----------



## Straight_time

Don't worry, if these are gonna be your first purchases of Soviet watches you might think that you've lost your once-in-a-lifetime-chance, but you'll soon find out that another good one is just around the corner. ;-)


----------



## ZacHFX

First post! I recently acquired a Vostok from eBay, and can't seem to find anything like it anywhere.









It doesn't seem to be a Komandirskie or Amphibia, and there's not a whole lot out there on other Vostok watches that I could find. I'm pretty sure it has a 2409 movement. There are other pictures in the eBay listing (item # 321958090898), if that helps anyone identify it!


----------



## schnurrp

ZacHFX said:


> First post! I recently acquired a Vostok from eBay, and can't seem to find anything like it anywhere.
> 
> View attachment 6726434
> 
> 
> It doesn't seem to be a Komandirskie or Amphibia, and there's not a whole lot out there on other Vostok watches that I could find. I'm pretty sure it has a 2409 movement. There are other pictures in the eBay listing (item # 321958090898), if that helps anyone identify it!


I don't recognize the watch but I do recognize those popular replacement hands, so it's in doubt as far as I'm concerned.

Dial looks like it's from the plastic body komandirskie.

Definitely pieced together.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Here's an interesting one:
> 
> Russian Vintage Watch POLJOT 1MCHZ Kirova USSR RARE Export | eBay
> 
> Looks like his stainless steel brother, only gold-plated, and with "15 Jewels" on the dial? Movement is, as expected, a 16-jewel 2408. What 15-jewel movement would belong in this watch?
> 
> View attachment 6721626
> 
> 
> View attachment 6721634


The first sturmanskie had a 15 jewel 41m so they were made. Movement replaced? I have a 17 jewel civil Poljot so hacking is not necessarily restricted to sturmanskies and sportivnies.


----------



## ZacHFX

schnurrp said:


> I don't recognize the watch but I do recognize those popular replacement hands, so it's in doubt as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Dial looks like it's from the plastic body komandirskie.
> 
> Definitely pieced together.


You're right, the dial is definitely from a plastic Komandirskies. Apparently rare. The hands are certainly replacements, probably from another Komandirskie. Do you recognize the case? I can't find such a plain looking Vostok case, either.


----------



## Straight_time

schnurrp said:


> The first sturmanskie had a 15 jewel 41m so they were made. Movement replaced? I have a 17 jewel civil Poljot so hacking is not necessarily restricted to sturmanskies and sportivnies.
> 
> View attachment 6731850


Whoa whoa whoa.....wait a minute.









They are rather uncommon, but I've seen a few wheels with a "Made in USSR" engraving on them before.

I'll pretend not to notice the very unusual font of the "17 jewels" writing. ...









But where the h*ll does that *LATIN ALPHABET* "1MWF" DIAMOND LOGO come from? 
...........................................................................................................................









Comrade, you owe us an explanation...









:-d


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> Whoa whoa whoa.....wait a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are rather uncommon, but I've seen a few wheels with a "Made in USSR" engraving on them before.
> 
> I'll pretend not to notice the very unusual font of the "17 jewels" writing. ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But where the h*ll does that *LATIN ALPHABET* "1MWF" DIAMOND LOGO come from?
> ...........................................................................................................................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comrade, you owe us an explanation...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :-d


Well, you're right but the 1MWF in the diamond logo in Latin instead of Cyrillic is rare also. Here's the thread, if you're interested, comrade: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-export-poljot-1620834.html

Sorry, Straight_time, I obviously didn't read your post very carefully.


----------



## schnurrp

ZacHFX said:


> You're right, the dial is definitely from a plastic Komandirskies. Apparently rare. The hands are certainly replacements, probably from another Komandirskie. Do you recognize the case? I can't find such a plain looking Vostok case, either.


I do not recognize the case, comrade, and those hands are available new as replacements on ebay and were never installed on an authentic Vostok in the factory.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> The first sturmanskie had a 15 jewel 41m so they were made. Movement replaced? I have a 17 jewel civil Poljot so hacking is not necessarily restricted to sturmanskies and sportivnies.


So you think a hacking 15-jewel 41m made it into a civilian Poljot? Or could this dial have been intended for a movement which never made it into the watch? A genuine misprint?

Nice watch, by the way -- that movement is a stunner.


----------



## Coug76

ZacHFX said:


> First post! I recently acquired a Vostok from eBay, and can't seem to find anything like it anywhere.
> 
> View attachment 6726434
> 
> 
> It doesn't seem to be a Komandirskie or Amphibia, and there's not a whole lot out there on other Vostok watches that I could find. I'm pretty sure it has a 2409 movement. There are other pictures in the eBay listing (item # 321958090898), if that helps anyone identify it!


That watch puts the Frank in Frankens. The seller claims it's a rare komandirske and waterproof.

- It doesn't have a screw down crown

- no rubber gasket for the non-komandirske case back

Also

- the hour and minute hands are vaguely Amphibia like

- except for the komandirske seconds hand

- The case is not a komandirske case that I can recognize

- the movement looks to be a 2414

I would say it's not exactly factory fresh.

I, personally, would not buy from that seller. He clearly doesn't respect his customers. What else will he try that we can't easily see...

Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


----------



## ZacHFX

Coug76 said:


> That watch puts the Frank in Frankens. The seller claims it's a rare komandirske and waterproof.
> 
> - It doesn't have a screw down crown
> 
> - no rubber gasket for the non-komandirske case back
> 
> Also
> 
> - the hour and minute hands are vaguely Amphibia like
> 
> - except for the komandirske seconds hand
> 
> - The case is not a komandirske case that I can recognize
> 
> - the movement looks to be a 2414
> 
> I would say it's not exactly factory fresh.
> 
> I, personally, would not buy from that seller. He clearly doesn't respect his customers. What else will he try that we can't easily see...
> 
> Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


I'm still quite happy with the look. The seller doesn't sell many watches, really just any Soviet-era stuff. I dug around a little more, and it appears to be a case from a Vostok Buran. The hands are either aftermarket, or salvaged from an Amphibia. So yes, it's definitely a frankenwatch, but I'm still very happy with it.

And you're right, it's a 2414 movement - I'm not sure why I thought it was 2409.

Thanks for the help!


----------



## ZacHFX

ZacHFX said:


> The seller doesn't sell many watches.


Correction: he doesn't _auction_ many watches. He does have several available under "Buy it Now".


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> So you think a hacking 15-jewel 41m made it into a civilian Poljot? Or could this dial have been intended for a movement which never made it into the watch? A genuine misprint?
> 
> Nice watch, by the way -- that movement is a stunner.


Thanks.

It could be a misprint which would probably be the most likely explanation. Good luck proving it, though.

I have never seen a watch with the 15 jewel 41m installed other than the sturmanskie but that is the only central second hand movement from 1MWF with 15 jewels that I'm aware of. Good luck finding one of those to transplant.


----------



## maybe

Here's a nice looking Raketa I won on eBay (ePrey). Thoughts on this watch? I've contacted the seller asking for some better photos since you can't really see the dial up close, or the condition of the crystal, but I don't think he can do much better given the quality of his camera. My main concern is with the case, though, because the only ones I could find on eBay with this dial and design had chrome-coloured or two-toned casings.















I'm aware that the back that covers the movement is most likely refurbished/new, which is fine for me as I don't want a ton of rust rubbing on my wrist anyways








Here's the movement, everything here seems to be okay when comparing it to other photos of the 2614.H movement. Here's hoping that I'll receive the watch with this movement, and not a Chinese quartz movement.









Although I voiced my concern over the casing at the beginning of the post, I had a scan through the Raketa 1998 catalogue and I can find some designs like this on the second page, apart from that though, nothing. They also look a little different. Does anyone know more about this design?









(Apologies for the big images, is there a way to have them resized without having to actually edit them or is making huge posts my only option? I can't just make links to the images because I don't have 10 posts yet, very annoying!)


----------



## maybe

Also I can't edit my posts but I meant to say that it's a bronze/copper coloured case in the catalogue rather than the stainless steel look which is shown in the photographs I attached. Sorry!


----------



## dutchassasin

Lovely dial but is it original 1977 Poljot or more recently made? 2614.2H movement inside.


----------



## kev80e

dutchassasin said:


> Lovely dial but is it original 1977 Poljot or more recently made? 2614.2H movement inside.


I would say yes , I've seen this case ,in golden colour with 1977 commemorative dials. It is a beautiful dial , but won't buy it as you spotted it first . 
Edit:
Meant I think I've seen them , don't want to mislead you.


----------



## dutchassasin

Thanks Kevin, you are a true Gentleman. Took the plunge and hope for the best. Worst case is a daily beater with a cool dial


----------



## kev80e

Congratulations , it looks great .You know where to send it if you get bored with it


----------



## ThePossumKing

Complete noob move here; buying before checking with those in the know, but I threw out a ridiculous lowball offer and when the seller accepted it, I just paid before I could do anything else. So does this 3133 look legit, and does anyone know what the logo on the dial is? Thanks for the help









Also, did Poljot ever have a dial like this or was someone having fun with a magic marker? I'm trying to branch out beyond Vostoks...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dutchassasin

The logo is from "Moskow International Innovation Bank" according to Polmax3133 website. But i think "Moscow International Investment Bank" found in a old WUS thread makes more sense.


----------



## ThePossumKing

dutchassasin said:


> The logo is from "Moskow International Innovation Bank" according to Polmax3133 website.


Thank you, Stefan

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

From https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html described as a late soviet era chronograph. I think that's a bank logo on the dial. Your big second hand has shed some paint. What do you consider low-ball for one of these?


----------



## ThePossumKing

schnurrp said:


> From https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html described as a late soviet era chronograph. I think that's a bank logo on the dial. Your big second hand has shed some paint. What do you consider low-ball for one of these?
> 
> View attachment 6745162


I consider lowball to be under $150

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gradient

Any thoughts on this on? Just picked it up for a whopping $15, curious what you all think of it. Looks a little fishy to me (repainted dial, maybe?) but I was looking for a 2609 Raketa and for the price I thought it was a really cool looking piece regardless.


----------



## mroatman

maybe said:


> Here's a nice looking Raketa I won on eBay (ePrey). Thoughts on this watch? I've contacted the seller asking for some better photos since you can't really see the dial up close, or the condition of the crystal, but I don't think he can do much better given the quality of his camera. My main concern is with the case, though, because the only ones I could find on eBay with this dial and design had chrome-coloured or two-toned casings.
> 
> I'm aware that the back that covers the movement is most likely refurbished/new, which is fine for me as I don't want a ton of rust rubbing on my wrist anyways
> 
> Here's the movement, everything here seems to be okay when comparing it to other photos of the 2614.H movement. Here's hoping that I'll receive the watch with this movement, and not a Chinese quartz movement.
> 
> Although I voiced my concern over the casing at the beginning of the post, I had a scan through the Raketa 1998 catalogue and I can find some designs like this on the second page, apart from that though, nothing. They also look a little different. Does anyone know more about this design?
> 
> (Apologies for the big images, is there a way to have them resized without having to actually edit them or is making huge posts my only option? I can't just make links to the images because I don't have 10 posts yet, very annoying!)


What makes you say the back is wrong?

Everything looks good except the case, which I believe is correct in style but should be gold-plated. Here it is in another catalog with the same gilt case and black bezel:

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5517478622672820802&oid=113098239036073221216

Here's mine for comparison: Raketa 2614.H

Nice watch!


----------



## mroatman

gradient said:


> Any thoughts on this on? Just picked it up for a whopping $15, curious what you all think of it. Looks a little fishy to me (repainted dial, maybe?) but I was looking for a 2609 Raketa and for the price I thought it was a really cool looking piece regardless.


The dial looks fine, in my opinion. Second hand might have originally been black, but that's a small thing. The upper half of the movement seems to be a different finish than the rest, suggesting it may have been replaced.


----------



## gradient

mroatman said:


> The dial looks fine, in my opinion. Second hand might have originally been black, but that's a small thing. The upper half of the movement seems to be a different finish than the rest, suggesting it may have been replaced.


Thanks for the feedback. A repaired movement doesn't bother me at all. Nice that the dial seems original, I love the look of it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> The dial looks fine, in my opinion. Second hand might have originally been black, but that's a small thing. The upper half of the movement seems to be a different finish than the rest, suggesting it may have been replaced.


Red second hand is original, in my opinion:









This difference in finish is normal for the modern Raketa 26xx. Why? I don't know.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> What makes you say the back is wrong?
> 
> Everything looks good except the case, which I believe is correct in style but should be gold-plated. Here it is in another catalog with the same gilt case and black bezel:
> 
> https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5517478622672820802&oid=113098239036073221216
> 
> Here's mine for comparison: Raketa 2614.H
> 
> Nice watch!


Dagger hands are wrong?


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Dagger hands are wrong?


Ah yes, I agree.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Red second hand is original, in my opinion:
> 
> This difference in finish is normal for the modern Raketa 26xx. Why? I don't know.


Wow! Thank you for the correction and the learning opportunity. Pretty strange and interesting.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Wow! Thank you for the correction and the learning opportunity. Pretty strange and interesting.


This has been discussed a number of times in the past (obviously not since you joined) and you have a lot of company questioning the mismatched finishes.


----------



## gradient

schnurrp said:


> Red second hand is original, in my opinion:
> 
> This difference in finish is normal for the modern Raketa 26xx. Why? I don't know.


Thanks for the feedback - great info!


----------



## ffeingol

Another one for the experts before I pull the trigger. The one that's really throwing me on this one is that I was told it's a 2409 movement, but the watch face says 18 jewel. From what I could research, the 2409 is a 17 jewel movement.


----------



## mroatman

ffeingol said:


> Another one for the experts before I pull the trigger. The one that's really throwing me on this one is that I was told it's a 2409 movement, but the watch face says 18 jewel. From what I could research, the 2409 is a 17 jewel movement.


Caliber 2209 is an 18-jewel movement. That's what should be inside, I think.


----------



## MattBrace

that dial should be matched with a 2209 movement hence he 18j and in a different case, hour and minute hands are also replacements and crown is not correct.

its a pass from me!


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> Another one for the experts before I pull the trigger. The one that's really throwing me on this one is that I was told it's a 2409 movement, but the watch face says 18 jewel. From what I could research, the 2409 is a 17 jewel movement.
> 
> View attachment 6758890
> View attachment 6758914


Hold your fire!

Dial is from a barrel amphibian (Type 119, notice 18 jewels designation for 2209 movement) and hands are a replacement set being sold on ebay


----------



## ffeingol

Thanks guys. Looked too good to be true, so I assumed it was, but always a good idea to ask the wiser people


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

I'll buy this Raketa watch 26690 with little 24 dial. But I can know it is legit or fake. I've ever seen it.
Can you help me?


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I'll buy this Raketa watch 26690 with little 24 dial. But I can know it is legit or fake. I've ever seen it.
> Can you help me?


Searching "raketa 26690 watch" turned up this one which appears identical except missing serial number on back and no movement picture: https://www.etsy.com/listing/233698991/vintage-rare-dial-raketa-petergof

Since there exist two possibly identical watches offered by different sellers it is likely that they are authentic.


----------



## emoscambio

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all, I'll buy this Raketa watch 26690 with little 24 dial. But I can know it is legit or fake. I've ever seen it. Can you help me?


Absolutely legit. I bought mine new from Tetyana (www.am-watches.com)


----------



## ffeingol

This one just showed up in the mail today. I like it even if it's not legit. It was build as "old, vintage and NOS". Not really sure it's any of the above.


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> This one just showed up in the mail today. I like it even if it's not legit. It was build as "old, vintage and NOS". Not really sure it's any of the above.
> 
> View attachment 6773346
> View attachment 6773354
> View attachment 6773362


Post soviet (early nineties) and authentic looking. NOS? Who knows. Any provenance?


----------



## ffeingol

Yea, I don't think it's actually NOS (included strap was made in Hong Kong and the crystal has numerous scratches) but I'm still quite happy with myself. It was quite inexpensive and I'm happy to hear that it's correct for the period.


----------



## gabrioli

(I already made this post once but in another thread that may have been the wrong one? 
I'm terrible at forums, sorry people.)
Anyway, hello, I'm new to this forum and I have a question about two Vostok watches I got from my uncle.

My worry is that I can't find another Vostok with a dial like mine (the black one with a star and wings). 
Or with the same dial/bezel combination (as with the naval one). 
I've looked through existing threads and various google searches and couldn't find much.














My uncle's wife bought them St. Petersburg or Moscow at least ten years ago. 
I don't know if they're automatics but I could manually wind both of them and then wear the one with the black dial for a day without any hassle. 
The other one was on a table all day and had kept the same accurate time. I don't have the tools to open the case back so I can't look at the movement (not that I would know what I'm looking for)

The date display does the fast popping/clicking-type change, on both watches. It doesn't rotate the date disc slowly. 
Both have the sunrise along with the Russian word for waterproof on the case back.

So I was basically wondering about authenticity and/or _any_ additional info. 
Thanks for any replies and sorry to the mods about fumbling around the threads. 
Cheers!


----------



## SinanjuStein

gabrioli said:


> (I already made this post once but in another thread that may have been the wrong one?
> I'm terrible at forums, sorry people.)
> Anyway, hello, I'm new to this forum and I have a question about two Vostok watches I got from my uncle.
> 
> My worry is that I can't find another Vostok with a dial like mine (the black one with a star and wings).
> Or with the same dial/bezel combination (as with the naval one).
> I've looked through existing threads and various google searches and couldn't find much.
> 
> My uncle's wife bought them St. Petersburg or Moscow at least ten years ago.
> I don't know if they're automatics but I could manually wind both of them and then wear the one with the black dial for a day without any hassle.
> The other one was on a table all day and had kept the same accurate time. I don't have the tools to open the case back so I can't look at the movement (not that I would know what I'm looking for)
> 
> The date display does the fast popping/clicking-type change, on both watches. It doesn't rotate the date disc slowly.
> Both have the sunrise along with the Russian word for waterproof on the case back.
> 
> So I was basically wondering about authenticity and/or _any_ additional info.
> Thanks for any replies and sorry to the mods about fumbling around the threads.
> Cheers!


They both seem alright, the one without an inscription on the bottom of the dial is unusual (Transitional piece maybe? Somebody else can confirm it).

I have seen the dial that has the "made in Russia" inscription on the bottom before a couple of times in the past.

Both have Vostok 2414A handwinding movements, feel free to read a little bit about them.


----------



## schnurrp

Here's the black one, I believe, in a 2001 catalog:









First one must have been bought used since the transitional dials had disappeared by the late '90s, replaced with those reading "made in Russia".


----------



## ffeingol

I really like the 510 dial and just stumped across this one. Looks a bit 'too good' so it's time to ask the experts again:


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> I really like the 510 dial and just stumped across this one. Looks a bit 'too good' so it's time to ask the experts again:
> 
> View attachment 6812170
> View attachment 6812178
> View attachment 6812194


You could do a lot worse, because there's a replacement dial out there like that one with wider white bars at the edge of the gray areas, and it does have authentic looking hands. The icing on the cake, though, would be an antimagnetic shield and a round crown.


----------



## ffeingol

@schnurrp What do you mean by round crow?


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> @schnurrp What do you mean by round crow?


Domed crown is more descriptive and what I meant by "round", like mine below from the early '80s. I've never seen a Type 119 pictured in a catalog with the flat crown.


----------



## ffeingol

Ahh, now I understand. Time to mull a but before pulling the trigger.


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> Ahh, now I understand. Time to mull a but before pulling the trigger.


That is a nice one you are contemplating, comrade, nicer than most. Worth getting at the right price. You can always pick up an antimagnetic shield and domed crown on down the road. Most people accept the flat crown as being authentic because they don't fit any other watch other than the Type 350 amphibian and its 2209 movement. It's just a mystery where they came from and why they are never seen in catalogs.


----------



## schnurrp

duplicate post, sorry!


----------



## ffeingol

It's the size. It says its 38mm, which is a bit smaller than I like.


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> It's the size. It says its 38mm, which is a bit smaller than I like.


Oh, well it's not a round watch so the width of the case isn't as important, although I believe it's larger than 38mm. As you can see it is quite long. It wears pretty big.

The hands should be nickel plated, they look black in the photo.


----------



## mroatman

The hands are nickel-plated and the antimagnetic shield is intact:

















The price is fair and Igor is a quality seller -- but his items often have retouched dials, so be careful. This one, however, looks good. And even though it's not domed, I would feel comfortable with that crown as it seems to show medium wear which is consistent with the watch's age and overall condition. I'd nab it.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> The hands are nickel-plated and the antimagnetic shield is intact:
> 
> View attachment 6814778
> 
> 
> View attachment 6814770
> 
> 
> The price is fair and Igor is a quality seller -- but his items often have retouched dials, so be careful. This one, however, looks good. And even though it's not domed, I would feel comfortable with that crown as it seems to show medium wear which is consistent with the watch's age and overall condition. I'd nab it.


Further from Dash pictures:

There is a little wear showing on the bezel in the top picture (no big deal) and the crystal looks like it may have been replaced (lot of space showing between the crystal and the bezel). This is a common defect that is hard to see in photographs unless just the right angle is chosen. I would ask about the crystal before buying. It can be replaced if incorrect but it should effect the price downward.


----------



## dutchassasin

I saw this Poljot okeah with 3132 movement. i am just curious about its authenticity and have no intention of buying this piece.


----------



## emoscambio

dutchassasin said:


> I saw this Poljot okeah with 3132 movement. i am just curious about its authenticity and have no intention of buying this piece.


 3132 have no date, like Valjoux 7733 vs 7734


----------



## dutchassasin

emoscambio said:


> 3132 have no date, like Valjoux 7733 vs 7734


Some early shturmanskie's (the one with silver dial) seems to be also fitted with 3132 but they also feature a date. There is one in the 3132 thread and there was one on ebay in may 2015. (161720183251) Perhaps they used leftover plates in the factory. It seems a bit too many examples for a repair job.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Maybe, I buy this OKEAH watch from my friend, but I don't know it is legit or franken. Can you help me?


----------



## dutchassasin

Lucky_Luke, completely wrong. Save your money!
-No stainless case, see the worn chrome.
-New fake dial, 
-Hands
-plain caseback there should be a stamped picture.
-inner bezel ring


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Thank you very much, mr dutchassasin.
And, this is second watch from this seller. Can you help me?


----------



## dutchassasin

Lucky_Luke, i dont know mutch about this one. All i can say it is not a soviet military one. It looks to be chrome case, look at the small watch hand at the right it is off-centre. Hands are possibly one of those replica ones.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

My friend has a new Poljot Buran 3133. This is his watch. So is it legit or franken?
Thank you.


----------



## emoscambio

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all, My friend has a new Poljot Buran 3133. This is his watch. So is it legit or franken? Thank you.


Legit


----------



## ninjastyle

Hi everyone, I've learned a ton by reading this thread. Am thinking about buying my first Vostok online. Mainly I just really like the dial.

It is described as width of 37 mm without crown.
Size is the dial 31mm.

Can the experts weigh in on this one?


----------



## SinanjuStein

ninjastyle said:


> Hi everyone, I've learned a ton by reading this thread. Am thinking about buying my first Vostok online. Mainly I just really like the dial.
> 
> It is described as width of 37 mm without crown.
> Size is the dial 31mm.
> 
> Can the experts weigh in on this one?


It's a post-soviet transitional piece, that much i can tell. Seems to be a unmarked 2414A movement.

Though otherwise i never quite saw such a crown and bezel on what appears to be a komandirskie (Unsure if it's a dirskie)


----------



## kev80e

ninjastyle said:


> Hi everyone, I've learned a ton by reading this thread. Am thinking about buying my first Vostok online. Mainly I just really like the dial.
> 
> It is described as width of 37 mm without crown.
> Size is the dial 31mm.
> 
> Can the experts weigh in on this one?
> 
> View attachment 6869170
> 
> 
> View attachment 6869186
> 
> 
> View attachment 6869194


I've not seen that dial before, but looks ok. The hands have I'd say been replaced , the lume and general condition of them doesn't match the condition of the dial. I would , though I could be wrong, have expected a red seconds hand. Also in my opinion that dial would be more at home in a komandirskie . Hopefully someone more knowledgeable with chip in.


----------



## dutchassasin

I have only seen the German Brandenburger Tor dial inside a amphibia case. I think somebody replaced the dressy dial originaly inside the dress case with fluted bezel. Attached an example i found on the internet.


----------



## gabrioli

Newbie here again. Found these on ebay and liked them, are they okay?

1. "Vintage USSR wristwatch USSR 1980 watch factory"WOSTOK" 18 RUBIES #308143" by seller: morozov_1917







2. "Vintage WOSTOK Soviet Russian Mechanical Men's Watch VOSTOK, Caliber 2209 #1915" by seller: morozov_1917








3. "Vintage Men's Wristwatch WOSTOK Mechanical 18 jewels cal 2209 Soviet USSR" by seller: zoroweb


----------



## kenb86

I was looking at this watch for sale and was curious if it appears genuine:



























Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## elsoldemayo

kenb86 said:


> I was looking at this watch for sale and was curious if it appears genuine:
> 
> Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!


Using the 3133 bible i.e. Polmax's site, the dial and blued hands appear on this one from the 70's, but the inner bezel appears to be wrong, although it appears on this one from the same period so the dial, hands, case & bezel could be ok, but the movement appears to be a later one as both of those have Poljot logo. The movement appears to be like this one from 83.


----------



## kenb86

How does this one look? The only thing that jumps out at me is the red dot at the center of the seconds hand. Thanks!


----------



## ffeingol

I saw this one the other day and was wondering if it's legit. I compared it to other images I've seen / references given here. I can find it with a blue face, but not in green. The watch face is not in the greatest of shape.


----------



## dutchassasin

ffeingol, the dial probably faded from blue to greenish due to exposure of sunlight.


----------



## ffeingol

dutchassasin thanks, that is what I tough. A bit too bad as the rest seems to be in good shape.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Dear all,

My friend has a Russian watch, but I don't know it is legit or franken. Calendar is written in Russian, but caseback is English.
Can you help me?


----------



## ffeingol

Thoughts on this one. From what I've been able to research / compare image it appears correct and the correct movement.


----------



## elsoldemayo

ffeingol said:


> Thoughts on this one. From what I've been able to research / compare image it appears correct and the correct movement.
> 
> View attachment 6967114
> View attachment 6967138


Pics are a bit small, but the case, hands, movement and Cyrillic dial & bezel all look correct to me.


----------



## ffeingol

@elsoldemayo Thank you for the confirmation. Now I just have to decide if it's worth it.


----------



## freight

Hello everyone,

I am looking to buy a Raketa Big Zero and wanted some expert opinions on whether or not these 3 are legit or franken. Thanks in advance!


----------



## schnurrp

freight said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am looking to buy a Raketa Big Zero and wanted some expert opinions on whether or not these 3 are legit or franken. Thanks in advance!
> 
> View attachment 6970482
> View attachment 6970506
> View attachment 6970530
> 
> 
> View attachment 6970538
> View attachment 6970546
> View attachment 6970554
> 
> 
> View attachment 6970562
> View attachment 6970570
> View attachment 6970578


All good, imho.


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Dear all,
> 
> My friend has a Russian watch, but I don't know it is legit or franken. Calendar is written in Russian, but caseback is English.
> Can you help me?


That is '80s Raketa hardware sold by second party seller Cornavin, if the back is correct. Cornavin watches often have a swordfish on the dial but that one looks like perhaps a special order logo dial or it's not authentic. I've seen the logo before but I can't place it.


----------



## freight

Thank you schnurrp!


----------



## freight

Hello again,

how about this one? Legit or franken? Worried about the movement in particular - the movement number looks different than I have seen.


----------



## freight

Then there is this one... I like this dial design and wanted to get an original one.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Well freight, i've never seen these dials before. But they appear to be identical, and the movements also appear to be correct.

Also as far as a translation on the lower text goes: "Proletarians of all nations, unite!" (Could be united)


----------



## That_Guy

Any idea on this one? Seen this dial on a bunch of bezels so I don't know if there is a correct one


----------



## schnurrp

The dials, hands, and cases look authentic on the Raketa big zeroes, freight, the only doubtful detail is that the movement number placed on the winding gear was usually not seen until after the fall of the USSR, just the opposite of what those have.


----------



## ffeingol

@That_Guy I'm been watching this auction also (sorry). I'm not an expert, but the reference images I've seen show it with a different bezel. The face also seems to be somewhat faded as the references I've see are a blue gradient from almost the top to the bottom of the dial.


----------



## damtak

Hello

I actively looking for a Raketa 24 watch, something very clean without any icon on the dial. I'm a bit lost about all suspicions about fake. 

Google lead me to russian-watches.info (I've read that some there had problems with this store), and I found this one, which correspond exactly to what i'm looking for :

russian-watches.info/product/russian-24-hour-watch-raketa-2623h-world-time-russian-version/

Is there any chance that it is a fake ?

Because all is written in Cyrillic (Cities, Brand etc...) and the movement seems to be the good one, as It is recommended on other section.

Thanks a lot


----------



## dutchassasin

Whatever you do dont purchase from russian-watches.info. Try ebay instead, plenty of the same models can be found. For example RAKETA 24H Antarctic Submariner 24 Hours Russian Military Watch 2623 H | eBay


----------



## cuthbert

That_Guy said:


> Any idea on this one? Seen this dial on a bunch of bezels so I don't know if there is a correct one
> View attachment 6987210


IMO Post-Soviet with replacement bezel.

I got this zakaz that looks a little dodgy because it has a gold dial with a chromes case:









The seller is reliable, though.


----------



## damtak

Seems to be the only one authentic on ebay.

Any other place to purchase this kind of watch ?


----------



## SinanjuStein

damtak said:


> Seems to be the only one authentic on ebay.
> 
> Any other place to purchase this kind of watch ?


Etsy is another option, overall simillar to eBay. The selection is different, but not as wide.


----------



## damtak

Just found those two watches

















Despite their shape (some scratches are apparent), do something bother you about them ?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Personally, I'd ignore the first. Everything seems to fit but the damage where the inner bezel and dial meet is off putting. How did it get damaged like that and if it was water or similar did it affect the movement etc.

The second one looks ok, case, dial, hands are all correct. 

Are there any movement shots for either watch?


----------



## schnurrp

damtak said:


> Just found those two watches
> 
> View attachment 7001106
> 
> 
> View attachment 7001122
> 
> 
> Despite their shape (some scratches are apparent), do something bother you about them ?


According to catalogs all of these should have black bezel. A movement picture showing 2623 and a side picture showing authentic smooth curving crystal instead of conventional bulging domed replacement crystal, a common defect, is necessary in my opinion.


----------



## damtak

elsoldemayo said:


> Personally, I'd ignore the first. Everything seems to fit but the damage where the inner bezel and dial meet is off putting. How did it get damaged like that and if it was water or similar did it affect the movement etc.
> 
> The second one looks ok, case, dial, hands are all correct.
> 
> Are there any movement shots for either watch?


Hi there !

Just the second one has a shot of its mechanism, and its a 2623.h, which tends to confirm that it could be an authentic watch.

Here is another alternative I've just found :

















Any idea about this one ? (It's way way more expensive than the previous, 150$ including shipping for this one, 100$ for the two others). Is it worth ?


----------



## ffeingol

schnurrp said:


> According to catalogs all of these should have black bezel. A movement picture showing 2623 and a side picture showing authentic smooth curving crystal instead of conventional bulging domed replacement crystal, a common defect, is necessary in my opinion.


 Do you happen to have any links to catalog images? I've been unsuccessful in finding any so far.


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> Do you happen to have any links to catalog images? I've been unsuccessful in finding any so far.


The gold one lower left: https://picasaweb.google.com/113098239036073221216/1989#5517478564836226082, and the chrome one: https://picasaweb.google.com/113098239036073221216/1989#5517478576863038626, from '89 catalog.


----------



## elsoldemayo

damtak said:


> Hi there !
> 
> Just the second one has a shot of its mechanism, and its a 2623.h, which tends to confirm that it could be an authentic watch.
> 
> Here is another alternative I've just found :
> 
> View attachment 7002378
> 
> 
> View attachment 7002386
> 
> 
> Any idea about this one ? (It's way way more expensive than the previous, 150$ including shipping for this one, 100$ for the two others). Is it worth ?


It looks fine, but $150 is expensive. Even $100 is on the high side as the authentic one from your earlier post has scratches on the dial. They come up on ebay quite regularly so might be best to keep looking now you know what's good and what's not.


----------



## damtak

elsoldemayo said:


> It looks fine, but $150 is expensive. Even $100 is on the high side as the authentic one from your earlier post has scratches on the dial. They come up on ebay quite regularly so might be best to keep looking now you know what's good and what's not.


Many thanks for the advice !

What do you consider as a fair price for this watch ? (the one with the blue band, posted earlier), because I was very tempted to buy it.


----------



## elsoldemayo

damtak said:


> Many thanks for the advice !
> 
> What do you consider as a fair price for this watch ? (the one with the blue band, posted earlier), because I was very tempted to buy it.


If you could get one in the same condition as that for $100 including shipping that would be an ok deal to me.


----------



## freight

I will add a similar Raketa 24 hr... is this one legit?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Looks fine.


----------



## Arizone

That lazy inscription on the ratchet wheel confuses me.


----------



## schnurrp

freight said:


> I will add a similar Raketa 24 hr... is this one legit?
> 
> View attachment 7010314
> View attachment 7010322
> View attachment 7010330


That one looks fine from what you've shown. The movement designation on the winding gear is consistent with what you see on post-soviet models.

The only detail that gives me pause is the distortion of the letters at the edge of the dial. This may indicate the authentic low-distortion crystal with its smooth curve has been replaced with a conventional high-domed one. I would want to see a side view.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Good point schnurrp, missed that.


----------



## freight

Thanks schnurrp - do these photos help at all?


----------



## damtak

Seems OK.

If you pass your turn, I'll be pleased to pick up this one


----------



## freight

It's a nice looking watch, right?!


----------



## schnurrp

Here's mine.


----------



## gradient

Another cheap impulse buy on my part. Seller listed it as from the 80's - I can't find anything online that looks exactly like it. Any thoughts on this one?


----------



## schnurrp

No reason to doubt that I can see.


----------



## gabrioli

Got this in a package from ebay today and I'm concerned about the slow date change. 
It started a 23.30-ish and at 23.43 it popped to the next date.


----------



## schnurrp

May need a cleaning. Not unusual for an older one.


----------



## SinanjuStein

gabrioli said:


> Got this in a package from ebay today and I'm concerned about the slow date change.
> It started a 23.30-ish and at 23.43 it popped to the next date.
> View attachment 7021634


I've seen such things on older 22XX caliber Vostoks. My guess, because the hands were put on close, but not perfectly close to when an actual date change will happen. (It's supposed to change somewhere like from 11:50 to 12:05~)

Basically, remove the hands and reseat them if you'd like. Otherwise it's all good.


----------



## gabrioli

Ahaa, thank you SinanjuStein!


----------



## SeikoAutomatic_01

I've been seeing varations of these Gagarin watches on Ebay. Are they legit or "refurbished"?


----------



## SinanjuStein

SeikoAutomatic_01 said:


> I've been seeing varations of these Gagarin watches on Ebay. Are they legit or "refurbished"?


Both of them aren't even close to real i'm afraid, So called "tourist traps".

These are usually old ZIM (2603 movements i think), or simillar styled watches with a 03 suffix, with repainted dials.


----------



## SeikoAutomatic_01

SinanjuStein said:


> Both of them aren't even close to real i'm afraid, So called "tourist traps".
> 
> These are usually old ZIM (2603 movements i think), or simillar styled watches with a 03 suffix, with repainted dials.


Thanks.


----------



## gradient

schnurrp said:


> No reason to doubt that I can see.


Thank you, sir, nice to hear.


----------



## Seele

SinanjuStein said:


> I've seen such things on older 22XX caliber Vostoks. My guess, because the hands were put on close, but not perfectly close to when an actual date change will happen. (It's supposed to change somewhere like from 11:50 to 12:05~)
> 
> Basically, remove the hands and reseat them if you'd like. Otherwise it's all good.


The instantaneous date change is due to the correct springiness of the spring that holds the date wheel in its correct setting; the substitution of a spring of a different spring rate would result in a slow change, and in your case, the hands could be taken off and fitted again where the change can start, perhaps, just prior to midnight.

That spring in question is one that is often lost during disassembly as it has a habit of flying off! I have a 341 Komandirskie just like yours, and has lost its original spring; my repairer substituted a different one and it exhibits this characteristic. I feel sure that if the correct spring has been installed, the situation would be rectified.


----------



## ffeingol

This one looks right as compare to some of the reference images I've seen, but it also looks a bit 'too good'. Thoughts?


----------



## freight

Hi everyone. Does this one look all right? Thanks.

View attachment 7059769


----------



## freight

Hello everyone. Does this one look OK? Thanks.


----------



## mroatman

freight said:


> Hello everyone. Does this one look OK? Thanks.
> View attachment 7063754
> View attachment 7063762
> View attachment 7063770


Yes. Potentially "NOS" by the looks of that sticker, but I wouldn't draw any meaningful conclusions from that.


----------



## ffeingol

This one looks way too good to be true. Listed as a 1983 Raketa. Movement is a proper 2609.ha (as far as I can tell).


----------



## mroatman

ffeingol said:


> This one looks way too good to be true. Listed as a 1983 Raketa. Movement is a proper 2609.ha (as far as I can tell).


Looks fine to me. Here is mine:









Assuming the movement is correct as described, the only difference I see is the State Quality symbol. You can find it in the catalog here.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Usually i would be the one giving out the advice, but 3133 chronographs are a sketchy area for me.

It looks all alright to me, but what can you guys tell?


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> This one looks right as compare to some of the reference images I've seen, but it also looks a bit 'too good'. Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 7054929
> View attachment 7054937


Looks fine to me other than a few missing hour lume dots. This is the model that had an orange triangle, still maintaining some color, and orange vertical and horizontal dividing lines which have faded out, in my opinion.


----------



## schnurrp

SinanjuStein said:


> Usually i would be the one giving out the advice, but 3133 chronographs are a sketchy area for me.
> 
> It looks all alright to me, but what can you guys tell?
> 
> View attachment 7073378
> 
> 
> View attachment 7073386


Looks fine to me. Late '80s to early '90s soviet civil chrono with chrome plated brass case.


----------



## Grandroyale

View attachment 7129802
View attachment 7129810


Three questions:

1. Is it legit?
2. What year?
3. Radium or Phosphur lume?

Thanks commrades!


----------



## ThePossumKing

Grandroyale said:


> View attachment 7129802
> View attachment 7129810
> 
> 
> Three questions:
> 
> 1. Is it legit?
> 2. What year?
> 3. Radium or Phosphur lume?
> 
> Thanks commrades!


Invalid attachment


----------



## Grandroyale

View attachment 7130066
View attachment 7130074


see if that works!


----------



## schnurrp

Grandroyale said:


> View attachment 7130090
> View attachment 7130098
> View attachment 7130066
> View attachment 7130074
> 
> 
> see if that works!


Looks like a reproduction dial, so certainly not radium, with incorrect hands (hour and minute should be daggers, second hand should be plain straight without arrow head, and alarm hand should be "braided" and long enough to reach red numerals) which are missing lume altogether. Case and movement look correct. Case back should be three piece.

From Antonov's collection:


----------



## kev80e

Still trying to fill the Okeah gap , opinions on this would be appreciated. I have requested a picture of the case back. 
View attachment 7166162

View attachment 7166170


Seller just got back to me , it's a plain back , so incorrect on that , though a replacement could be found.


----------



## Ham2

kev80e said:


> Still trying to fill the Okeah gap , opinions on this would be appreciated. I have requested a picture of the case back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seller just got back to me , it's a plain back , so incorrect on that , though a replacement could be found.


Been looking for a replacement back for one of mine for 3 years - saw one, once, but didn't want to pay $300 for it


----------



## hseldon

Hi,
does anyone have any clues about this ZIM?

I can't seem to find a catologue entry for ZIM anywhere, so any link would be greatly appreciated.

All gold hands, incl. second hand correct? Also, I'm not sure about the movement. Seller lists it as 17 jewels, although it clearly says 15 on the movement.

What are your thoughts?

Many thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

Authentic. Not found in a catalog but see fourth post in this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/zim-city-2913794.html


----------



## hseldon

Thanks, it's what I thought, but the movement with the rigdes and studded balance wheel seems to look much older than what I would have expected to see in that watch.


----------



## schnurrp

hseldon said:


> Thanks, it's what I thought, but the movement with the rigdes and studded balance wheel seems to look much older than what I would have expected to see in that watch.


You've got a point there, I would have expected the newer smooth movement too but at least it's a Zim so who knows. They had to make the change at some point so maybe it's one of the newest old movements.


----------



## ninjastyle

I've been seeing a few of these pop up on eBay, was wondering if I could get some collective opinions. The case is 39mm (no crown) although I've seen a few that are advertised as 36mm.










Movement:









Are these the real deal?
They typically sell for about $60 which is twice what I typically see for the Russian divers (around $30)

Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

[/QUOTE]
Are these the real deal?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

No. Modern "construction".


----------



## ninjastyle

schnurrp said:


> No. Modern "construction".


Thanks
And just for my own education, do you mean that it is
A) genuine Vostok but they are trying to pass off a new watch as "vintage" made at Chistopol in the 1970s, or
B) not even Vostok (eg a fakie made in China)
?

Thanks again!


----------



## mroatman

ninjastyle said:


> Thanks
> And just for my own education, do you mean that it is
> A) genuine Vostok but they are trying to pass off a new watch as "vintage" made at Chistopol in the 1970s, or
> B) not even Vostok (eg a fakie made in China)
> ?
> 
> Thanks again!


Case and dial do not belong together. Dial is a modern reproduction. Movement is genuine but the balance has been replaced.

That's what I see, at least.


----------



## fofofomin

Really wanting to add an alarm to my Soviet collection, what do you guys think? Legit?

I believe from 70's?

Sent from my SGH-T999L using Tapatalk


----------



## kev80e

Ham2 said:


> Been looking for a replacement back for one of mine for 3 years - saw one, once, but didn't want to pay $300 for it


Thanks Ham2. Think the rest looks ok though.


----------



## ffeingol

Saw this one the other day. I've looked at all the Vostok watch reference pages that I could find, but I can find anything like this. The description given with it makes no sense (50th anniversary of WWII, but the watch says CCCP). Any idea what it is? Sorry, there were only small pictures.


----------



## schnurrp

ffeingol said:


> Saw this one the other day. I've looked at all the Vostok watch reference pages that I could find, but I can find anything like this. The description given with it makes no sense (50th anniversary of WWII, but the watch says CCCP). Any idea what it is? Sorry, there were only small pictures.
> View attachment 7199474


From '93 Vostok catalog:


----------



## ThePossumKing

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



ffeingol said:


> Saw this one the other day. I've looked at all the Vostok watch reference pages that I could find, but I can find anything like this. The description given with it makes no sense (50th anniversary of WWII, but the watch says CCCP). Any idea what it is? Sorry, there were only small pictures.
> View attachment 7199474


Thats an antimagnetic Amphibia. They made a green dial and a brown dial version. Early to mid '90s, I think. Here's mine after modding









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ffeingol

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Thanks guys


----------



## Pentona

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Is everything OK with this Raketa?

(seller's photos)


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Pentona said:


> Is everything OK with this Raketa?
> 
> (seller's photos)


Don't believe so.

Example 1
Example 2
Catalog


----------



## B3stia

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

What about this one? Advertised as NOS. New seller with only a few items for sale. All NOS.

View attachment 7225138

View attachment 7225162

View attachment 7225178


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



B3stia said:


> What about this one? Advertised as NOS. New seller with only a few items for sale. All NOS.
> 
> View attachment 7225138
> 
> View attachment 7225162
> 
> View attachment 7225178


Sorry, not working.

Anyone else seeing a lot of invalid attachments / broken links lately?


----------



## B3stia

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I'll try photobucket.


----------



## B3stia

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I can't post links with low post count... On eBay there's a seller called watch2016 selling a Raketa cal 2609. What is your opinion mroatman?


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



B3stia said:


> I can't post links with low post count... On eBay there's a seller called watch2016 selling a Raketa cal 2609. What is your opinion mroatman?


Post the link without the "www" part. I can't find the listing you're talking about


----------



## B3stia

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Let's try this again..


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Sorry, not working.
> 
> Anyone else seeing a lot of invalid attachments / broken links lately?


Yeah I have . And sometimes I get logged out.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Just curious about this , not the sort of thing I normally buy , but not seen one like this before with this day and date layout. Movement reported to be 2627.2H.
View attachment 7232666

View attachment 7232674


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



kev80e said:


> Just curious about this , not the sort of thing I normally buy , but not seen one like this before with this day and date layout. Movement reported to be 2627.2H.
> View attachment 7232666
> 
> View attachment 7232674


Invalid attachment :/


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



B3stia said:


> Let's try this again..


I believe the hands are replaced. My gut tells me they should match the indices and case color (i.e. all gilt or all chrome).

Example 1
Example 2
Catalog

But who knows, gilt hands may have been an authentic variation in the post-soviet era. My only other question is the crown, but it's really too hard to make a valid assessment there. Otherwise, looks good.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Invalid attachment :/


Hopefully sorted


----------



## B3stia

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> I believe the hands are replaced. My gut tells me they should match the indices and case color (i.e. all gilt or all chrome).
> 
> Example 1
> Example 2
> Catalog
> 
> But who knows, gilt hands may have been an authentic variation in the post-soviet era. My only other question is the crown, but it's really too hard to make a valid assessment there. Otherwise, looks good.


Yes, I think you're right about the hands. It makes sense. I had difficulties distinguishing the colors from the photos, but compared with yours it's obvious.

If I can get it cheap I might go for it.

Thanks!


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



kev80e said:


> Hopefully sorted


I think the hands are wrong:

Example 1
Example 2


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> I think the hands are wrong:
> 
> Example


Thanks Dashiell, never noticed any with that layout before . I'll leave it already bought 2 today.


----------



## willjackson

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

HI friends!
View attachment 7234154

Picked up these two Poljots and I think they are recased, what do you think? The brown Olympic has dial edge issues for me. Up close the green one looks good. Thanks for the help!
View attachment 7234146


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



willjackson said:


> HI friends!
> View attachment 7234154
> 
> Picked up these two Poljots and I think they are recased, what do you think? The brown Olympic has dial edge issues for me. Up close the green one looks good. Thanks for the help!
> View attachment 7234146


Invalid attachments.


----------



## willjackson

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

View attachment 7237570


Sorry for for the attachment errors. I'm wondering if these are recased? Thanks!


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



willjackson said:


> View attachment 7237570
> 
> 
> Sorry for for the attachment errors. I'm wondering if these are recased? Thanks!


Still invalid :/


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Could I have your opinions on this. I'm not sure about the chronographs seconds hand , correct for this?
View attachment 7243754

View attachment 7243762


----------



## MattBrace

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi Kev, Other than the Hour and Minute hands (sliver & Green Lume) the rest of the hands are modern replacements.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



MattBrace said:


> Hi Kev, Other than the Hour and Minute hands (sliver & Green Lume) the rest of the hands are modern replacements.


Thought as much. Cheers Matt. I'll find one one day.


----------



## CosmonautFan

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hello all,

I was searching for an authentic Sturmanskie Gagarin 15 Jewel, the same one Yuri Gagarin wore on his flight in the Vostok. I've located a few sellers on ebay and wanted to know if they were authentic. I've done quite a bit of research and used the guide by Tammo to help in my search.

I'm pretty sure they are authentic, but would like some confirmation by an expert.

Option 1:
View attachment 7270722

View attachment 7270730

View attachment 7270738


Option 2:
View attachment 7270746
View attachment 7270754
View attachment 7270762


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



CosmonautFan said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I was searching for an authentic Sturmanskie Gagarin 15 Jewel, the same one Yuri Gagarin wore on his flight in the Vostok. I've located a few sellers on ebay and wanted to know if they were authentic. I've done quite a bit of research and used the guide by Tammo to help in my search.
> 
> I'm pretty sure they are authentic, but would like some confirmation by an expert.
> 
> Option 1:
> View attachment 7270722
> 
> View attachment 7270730
> 
> View attachment 7270738
> 
> 
> Option 2:
> View attachment 7270746
> View attachment 7270754
> View attachment 7270762


Invalid attachments


----------



## SinanjuStein

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



CosmonautFan said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I was searching for an authentic Sturmanskie Gagarin 15 Jewel, the same one Yuri Gagarin wore on his flight in the Vostok. I've located a few sellers on ebay and wanted to know if they were authentic. I've done quite a bit of research and used the guide by Tammo to help in my search.
> 
> I'm pretty sure they are authentic, but would like some confirmation by an expert.


Upload them to imgur, and then upload via URL link (Second option). Works fine and with permanent storing.

Also since Pobeda's aren't my specialty at all. There isn't much said about it, but i'm guessing this is the smaller Pobeda (16mm lug size, 34mm watch size).
Question is, is it all original or what exactly am i looking at?


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



SinanjuStein said:


> Upload them to imgur, and then upload via URL link (Second option). Works fine and with permanent storing.
> 
> Also since Pobeda's aren't my specialty at all. There isn't much said about it, but i'm guessing this is the smaller Pobeda (16mm lug size, 34mm watch size).
> Question is, is it all original or what exactly am i looking at?


Second hand is replaced. Otherwise looks good. Diameter is about 33mm with 16mm lugs.

Example
Catalog


----------



## SinanjuStein

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Second hand is replaced. Otherwise looks good. Diameter is about 33mm with 16mm lugs.
> 
> Example
> Catalog


Thanks Dashiell.

But a small request if you don't mind, could you take a comparison pic with the Pobeda that you got to something like a 2609 Raketa?


----------



## CosmonautFan

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Here let's retry this. It won't let me post links yet.

Option 1:
View attachment 7272242

View attachment 7272250

View attachment 7272258


Option 2:
View attachment 7272266

View attachment 7272274

View attachment 7272282


----------



## B3stia

Couldn't find this version in the Raketa catalog. Is this a newer version of the old night/day that use Roman numbers. ? As far as I can tell the font for the numbers are consistent with other raketa dials.

http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/A..._2016-03-01-20-48-06-01_zpslglnlo6d.jpeg.html

Skickat från min HUAWEI GRA-L09 via Tapatalk


----------



## B3stia

Skickat från min HUAWEI GRA-L09 via Tapatalk


----------



## elsoldemayo

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



CosmonautFan said:


> Here let's retry this. It won't let me post links yet.
> 
> Option 1:
> View attachment 7272242
> 
> View attachment 7272250
> 
> View attachment 7272258
> 
> 
> Option 2:
> View attachment 7272266
> 
> View attachment 7272274
> 
> View attachment 7272282


Still broken. It's been a problem on here for a couple of weeks. When you post, use the Go Advanced option rather than Post Quick Reply. That seems reliable.


----------



## CosmonautFan

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Third attempt. o| Need verification on 2 Sturmanskies I'm eyeing.

Option 1:




















Option 2:


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



CosmonautFan said:


> Third attempt. o| Need verification on 2 Sturmanskies I'm eyeing.
> Option 1:
> Option 2:


Dial on Option 2 is fake (scanned and reprinted). Crown is new. Hands are poorly relumed. Seller has an iffy reputation.

First option looks legit, albeit also with relumed hands (very common and not a big deal). The seller of is also generally trusted around here.

Of those two, definitely go for Option #1.


----------



## CosmonautFan

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Dial on Option 2 is fake (scanned and reprinted). Crown is new. Hands are poorly relumed. Seller has an iffy reputation.
> 
> First option looks legit, albeit also with relumed hands (very common and not a big deal). The seller of is also generally trusted around here.
> 
> Of those two, definitely go for Option #1.


Thanks for the opinions. I think I will get option 1. Also do you happen to know the sellers? Or are you just keen to the eye of specific features that are associated to well known sellers?


----------



## ffeingol

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Doing this a bit backwards as I purchased them already. From what I could research they looked good and the price was very good. How did I do?


----------



## ThePossumKing

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



ffeingol said:


> Doing this a bit backwards as I purchased them already. From what I could research they looked good and the price was very good. How did I do?
> 
> View attachment 7275730
> View attachment 7275738
> View attachment 7275746
> View attachment 7275754
> View attachment 7275762
> View attachment 7275770


Not really sure that they put Komandirskie dials in Amphibias back in the Soviet era, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's missing the antimagnetic shield. Not a big deal in my book


----------



## watch22

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

From a dial perspective - the arrow hour hand goes with the meatball second and the regular hour hand goes with the regular second.

That's all I know.


----------



## ffeingol

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



ThePossumKing said:


> Not really sure that they put Komandirskie dials in Amphibias back in the Soviet era, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's missing the antimagnetic shield. Not a big deal in my book


Yea, was not sure that the dial when with the rest of the watch. The antimagnetic shield is there, just did not include it in the picture. Case and movement looked good, so I figured if I come across a proper dial I'd have a 'real' watch again.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



CosmonautFan said:


> Thanks for the opinions. I think I will get option 1. Also do you happen to know the sellers? Or are you just keen to the eye of specific features that are associated to well known sellers?


You get to know sellers by their photography.

Let me guess: Option #1 is "servicevintagewatches2012" and Option #2 is "fialkin77"?

;-)


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



ThePossumKing said:


> Not really sure that they put Komandirskie dials in Amphibias back in the Soviet era, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's missing the antimagnetic shield. Not a big deal in my book


The subject matter of the dial is "komandirskie" but not all komandirskie dials are found on komandirskie watches. Here's one from Michele's collection, amphibian all the way. I would feel better about the subject watch if the bezel had the white lume dot with the plastic cover.


----------



## ffeingol

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> Here's one from Michele's collection, amphibian all the way. I would feel better about the subject watch if the bezel had the white lume dot with the plastic cover.


That was the site / picture I used for reference. I was not sure if the bezel was replaced or if the lume dot fell out (not sure what color would be 'under' it.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



SinanjuStein said:


> Thanks Dashiell.
> 
> But a small request if you don't mind, could you take a comparison pic with the Pobeda that you got to something like a 2609 Raketa?


Raketa 2609 came in a few different case varieties, so I included a few to give you a feel for size.









Yours is a nice watch, but the red second hand would bother me, and I've found that seller difficult to deal with.


----------



## elsoldemayo

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



CosmonautFan said:


> Thanks for the opinions. I think I will get option 1. Also do you happen to know the sellers? Or are you just keen to the eye of specific features that are associated to well known sellers?


I've purchased a few watches from the first seller and they always arrived quickly and keep excellent time.


----------



## ffeingol

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

From the reference images I've seen it all looks correct, but just in too good of shape to be true. I'm not posting it, but the movement looks correct.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Most will argue that only a domed crown is appropriate for absolute authenticity, but I tend to believe this squared crown was an authentic variation. Just too many examples out there. Otherwise looks good to me.


----------



## ffeingol

Thanks

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## SinanjuStein

This one really confuses me.

View attachment 7384890









What do you guys see? I know the dial does fit the case, but in the other pictures it lacks the antimagnetic case and i didn't see if it's a SU or RU dated movement.


----------



## mroatman

SinanjuStein said:


> This one really confuses me.
> 
> What do you guys see? I know the dial does fit the case, but in the other pictures it lacks the antimagnetic case and i didn't see if it's a SU or RU dated movement.


Case is correct. I question the bezel, but it may have been an valid alternative to the one below. See the catalog here.


----------



## SnowJambi

Hello WUS! My first post here and first steps into the world of watches :-d

I just bought my first mechanical watch, and I ended up with this Zim. I'm not too worried about it's authenticity, I like the way it looks but I'm still curious about whether it has been frankened or not (I know very little about watches but I suspect so! Particularly the case :think.

View attachment 7415402

View attachment 7415418

View attachment 7415426

View attachment 7415434


Also is there a way to "spoiler tag" images so I don't bombard you all with huge pictures?


----------



## SinanjuStein

SnowJambi said:


> Hello WUS! My first post here and first steps into the world of watches :-d
> 
> I just bought my first mechanical watch, and I ended up with this Zim. I'm not too worried about it's authenticity, I like the way it looks but I'm still curious about whether it has been frankened or not (I know very little about watches but I suspect so! Particularly the case :think.
> 
> View attachment 7415402
> 
> View attachment 7415418
> 
> View attachment 7415426
> 
> View attachment 7415434
> 
> 
> Also is there a way to "spoiler tag" images so I don't bombard you all with huge pictures?


We can't see the images i'm afraid. Try uploading them to a separate site and adding them via url. (Imgur, Photobucket etc)


----------



## SnowJambi

SinanjuStein said:


> We can't see the images i'm afraid. Try uploading them to a separate site and adding them via url. (Imgur, Photobucket etc)


Hm it seemed they worked in preview but went wrong after posting o|, and unfortunately I can't edit posts yet. Attempt 2... Ah. Seems I can't post links/images yet, need more posts :-( Remove the space in the link below for an album on imgur of the watch.

htt p://imgur.com/a/IxXhy


----------



## mroatman

Looks good to me!


----------



## mariomart

Any thoughts on this one? It has "Amphibia" printed under "Boctok", I've never seen that before. It also appears to have gold indices, sword hands and a second hand with a smaller pip. My gut feeling is that it's legit and possibly a little rare.


----------



## schnurrp

mariomart said:


> Any thoughts on this one? It has "Amphibia" printed under "Boctok", I've never seen that before. It also appears to have gold indices, sword hands and a second hand with a smaller pip. My gut feeling is that it's legit and possibly a little rare.
> 
> View attachment 7416818
> View attachment 7416826
> View attachment 7416834


The first type 119 amphibians are shown in the catalogs with paddle hands (I assume the necktie hands were left behind with the type 350) and I don't remember seeing that dial before, either.

Therefore, without some provenance (existence in another collection at least) I would have to conclude it's not authentic. Could be wrong, though. A decent parts watch at the right price.


----------



## Pentona

I couldn't resist this beauty at the Zeleni Venac market in Belgrade, is everything original?


----------



## ThePossumKing

mariomart said:


> Any thoughts on this one? It has "Amphibia" printed under "Boctok", I've never seen that before. It also appears to have gold indices, sword hands and a second hand with a smaller pip. My gut feeling is that it's legit and possibly a little rare.
> 
> View attachment 7416818
> View attachment 7416826
> View attachment 7416834


I could be wrong, but I think the dial has be reprinted. The Boctok logo just doesn't look quite right; I've never seen the 'Amphibia' logo printed like that except on faked eBay dials, and never with the Boctok logo above it; and the 'Made in USSR' logo shouldn't have the gap in it unless there is a dial marking or lume indice in between the wording

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

mariomart said:


> Any thoughts on this one? It has "Amphibia" printed under "Boctok", I've never seen that before. It also appears to have gold indices, sword hands and a second hand with a smaller pip. My gut feeling is that it's legit and possibly a little rare.
> 
> View attachment 7416818


Well I just found the answer to my question. It is definitely a fake dial as I just found an Ebay listing for it.

Clock Dial Watch Vostok Amphibian Amfibia Diameter 29 40mm | eBay

It seems there are a few new designs entering the market.

I ended up buying the watch, as even though it's a frankenwatch I still like the overall look and think it works well together.

A melding of the original 350 and the 119 . I particularly like the hands and overall it's a rather tidy watch.


----------



## rbpope

Vostok Amphibians are made to be customized... That's the fun of them...


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk


----------



## SnowJambi

Ah I can post pictures now, this is what I've got in the mail, anyone know much about it?


----------



## schnurrp

rbpope said:


> Vostok Amphibians are made to be customized... That's the fun of them...
> 
> Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk


I agree, but it's wrong then to sell them as authentic!


----------



## schnurrp

SnowJambi said:


> Ah I can post pictures now, this is what I've got in the mail, anyone know much about it?


I can't see anything that pops out as wrong but it is not in a catalog that I know of. That is not unusual for the many designs created by ZIM but it makes it hard to collect them. Decent probability it's authentic. Hopefully someone else has one and will respond providing a bit of provenance.

I'd say from the '80s made for domestic market with plain ZIM workhorse k26 2602 movement.

ZIM ( 'Zavod Imeni Maslennikova') from Maslennikov Watch Factory, Samara, according to comrade Sekondtime: https://sekondtime.wordpress.com/factories/.


----------



## SnowJambi

schnurrp said:


> I can't see anything that pops out as wrong but it is not in a catalog that I know of. That is not unusual for the many designs created by ZIM but it makes it hard to collect them. Decent probability it's authentic. Hopefully someone else has one and will respond providing a bit of provenance.
> 
> I'd say from the '80s made for domestic market with plain ZIM workhorse k26 2602 movement.
> 
> ZIM ( 'Zavod Imeni Maslennikova') from Maslennikov Watch Factory, Samara, according to comrade Sekondtime: https://sekondtime.wordpress.com/factories/.


Awesome, thanks mate!


----------



## Rimmed762

Pentona said:


> I couldn't resist this beauty at the Zeleni Venac market in Belgrade, is everything original?


341 case. On my similiar Komandirskie there is a same dial and a same bezel. Serial number in caseback matches the era.

I'd say legit but I am not an expert.

EDIT: There also should be 2414 movement inside. I personally really like this case and looks of the watch in general. That is why I have quite a lot of those and wait for the new K34 Komandirskies.


----------



## BizzyC

Hello friends. Rolled the dice on this guy, but didn't spend much so I won't feel bad if it's a total Franken.

The case is stainless steel and the dial looks original with some nice patina. From what I've learned is that based on the the one-piece rest lever, crown stamp on the body and gold balance wheel it's late 80's early 90's, but the crown and 4 digit serial number on the bridge doesn't match up. Also, not sure this matters but there appears to be an 86 scratched into the underside of the case back. Does anyone with more knowledge see anything else that looks out of order? Thanks as always.














































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ham2

Not franken but repaired at some point. The chrono bridge is from one of the earliest iterations of Sturmanskie when the Poljot crown was stamped on the bridge rather than on plate beside the balance. So yours is a later model with one piece reset lever and replacement bridge and at least one gear (silver) and repainted chrono hands. But very nice nonetheless.


----------



## BizzyC

Very helpful. Thanks Ham2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## daceholja

Hey guys, 
I've just purchased this (for suspiciously cheap), was wondering if anyone could clarify / verify what it is exactly.
The ad said it was a Luch Ultra Slim 2209; however, no picture of movement was posted. I only really purchased it because it was so cheap. It looks clean and I've seen a couple others which look similar with the same reported 2209 movement. From my research, the 2209 seems like a decent movement?

Anywhere, here are some pictures:

View attachment 7487138
View attachment 7487146
View attachment 7487162


----------



## daceholja

Sorry bad formatting:


----------



## schnurrp

daceholja said:


> Sorry bad formatting:


What you've shown appears authentic except for the crown and probably the crystal.


----------



## Arizone

Anyone see one of these before? Seems to be a step above the usual Raketa frankens. Unfortunately no movement shot.


----------



## schnurrp

Arizone said:


> Anyone see one of these before? Seems to be a step above the usual Raketa frankens. Unfortunately no movement shot.


Not me. It is different than the usually found Raketa questionables from the time. Appears to have the "no-lug" case often used, first seen on the perpetual calendar. The movement is a mystery. I can't recall any Raketa 24 hour watches with a date function. Am I missing one?

Unfortunate choice of hands, in my opinion, hard to read on a white background, as if a 24 hr. watch dial isn't already hard to read.


----------



## Shai1

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Arizone said:


> Anyone see one of these before? Seems to be a step above the usual Raketa frankens. Unfortunately no movement shot.


It's a Chinese automatic movement, apparently assembled into a case in Russia. Not exactly a Franken as this was a legitimate company for a while, though it's clear dial and case designs are lifted straight from 2 classic Raketa watches, the 24 hours dial and Perpetual Calendar case

Old thread about it here

https://www.watchuseek.com/f5/dolphin-%96-one-hit-wonder-832865.html Scroll down to the end for pictures that still display

Another reference to it here. http://www.raketa24.com/24hourwatch/24nowdolphin.htm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Hello everyone, I found this 420 case vostok and the seller says it's an old movement with a new dial, and probably case? :

Movement: Mechanical, 
Caliber is 2209; 18 Jewels;
Case size: without crown 40mm,including crown 43mm
Thickness: 12mm
lug to lug: 44mm
Wristband size: 18 mm
Crystal: original acryli? 
Stainless steel back
Stainless case

Shock-resistant balance. Freguency: 18000 semi-oscillation per hour. Watch Lift Angle - 42° Daily rate from - 25 to + 35 s/day 
Replaced by a new dial (modern copy)

Do you think its worth buying? It looks very good but I don't know if the dial or the movement are original. How much should i pay for it? Its an auction and i don't know how much will cost in the end. Thank you for your help, Andrei


----------



## schnurrp

That 420 amphibian should have a 17 jewel 2409 movement. The case and back look authentic but, as stated, the dial and also the hands are modern replacements. I would be suspicious of the bezel from the picture you post, it looks like the lume dot has been added. The authentic dot is covered with a plastic cap which can usually be seen. Maybe another picture would help confirm this.

All in all not a bad looking "construction" with some decent parts but not worth much, in my opinion. You can do better.


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Thanks for the reply. That was my concern also, that the movement isn't original. I don't mind a modern dial but I wanted a original case and movement. On the movement it's written 2209SU, maybe you know from what watch is coming?

LE: I found out from another topic in this forum that the movement is legit. Is one of the erlier models used on the first amphibias . 2209 with no date and 2214 with date. The guy from that post said he has an amphibia from 1967 with that movement.


----------



## Rimmed762

2209 was a very common movement in Vostok watches before being replaced by 24-series. So 2209 could come from almost any Vostok watch from dressy to Amphibias of the era. Movement ring/holder is (AFAIK) Amphibia specific.


----------



## schnurrp

Andrei Mihaila said:


> Thanks for the reply. That was my concern also, that the movement isn't original. I don't mind a modern dial but I wanted a original case and movement. On the movement it's written 2209SU, maybe you know from what watch is coming?
> 
> LE: I found out from another topic in this forum that the movement is legit. Is one of the erlier models used on the first amphibias . 2209 with no date and 2214 with date. The guy from that post said he has an amphibia from 1967 with that movement.


Bezel lume dot was added, in my opinion. Plastic cap is missing so lume will wear off quickly.

The Vostok 2209 is a legit movement but not in that case. By the time the type 420 amphibian was being produced the 2209 movement was not being used anymore. Definitely a substitution movement used earlier in the type 350 and type 119 amphibians.

Also "meatball" second hand reproduction hand is for the 2409 and will not fit the 2209 which is why it is missing, probably. And finally, there's a good chance this dial is stuck to the movement with tape since the dial feet location is different for the 2209 and 2409.

This is a classic "franken".


----------



## Rimmed762

Those dials are sold specifically to 22-series so I believe dial feets are OK.


----------



## schnurrp

Rimmed762 said:


> Those dials are sold specifically to 22-series so I believe dial feets are OK.


Not surprised.

I have a Vostok dress watch from the late sixties with a 2409 movement so the two movements, 2209 and 2409 were both used by Vostok for a long time but by the late '80s I think they had stopped using the 2209. This '90 catalog has no 2209 and this was before the type 420:

https://picasaweb.google.com/113098239036073221216/90


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Not surprised.
> 
> I have a Vostok dress watch from the late sixties with a 2409 movement so the two movements, 2209 and 2409 were both used by Vostok for a long time but by the late '80s I think they had stopped using the 2209. This '90 catalog has no 2209 and this was before the type 420:
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/113098239036073221216/90


This is an example of a franken that has no discernible starting point.


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Thank you for your opinions guys, i think i will let this one go. Too much mix and match for my taste 

Le: I found another one and it looks really good. My only concern is that it looks too good? I don't see any sign of wear or use and it's not listed as NOS or new. What do you think?


----------



## SinanjuStein

I think it looks alright Andrei. They might have replaced the bezel at some point but otherwise it seems to be correct. The red star seems very lightly faded as it should be in non-NOS examples.

Also a small question. Since we both share the same name, do you pronounce it in English only with an "i" or also with a "y" in the end?


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

In my country (Romania) my name is pronounced the same way it's written with the final "i" like in India. Some of the english speaking people call me the same way but the vast majority use the english name : Andrew


Much later edit  
Well, I bought it...we'll see when it arrives how it really is. Do you know if this watch takes a 18mm strap like the regular Komandirskies?


----------



## Jeroenskie

Just got this Komandirskie in the mail. What do you guys think, real or not? 

It has the 3aka3 mo cccp and everything but that of course doesn't prove that much. The glass seems a bit to new to me, there are almost no scratches at all.


----------



## schnurrp

Looks all good to me. Second hand, bezel, and back are all authentic variations, in my opinion.


----------



## Jeroenskie

thanks! is there any way you can check if it is really 3aza3 mo cccp or that they just painted that on it later?


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> thanks! is there any way you can check if it is really 3aza3 mo cccp or that they just painted that on it later?


That looks authentic to me. The mistake the copiers always make is printing all letters the same size. Notice the "3" at the beginning is a little larger than the "3" at the end. I guess it's because it is a capitalization, don't know for sure, but it's always like that on the authentic printing and never like that on the copies.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Another one. 
Saw this watch on a Dutch website, the seller says it is a ZIM Pobeda from 1946 from the ZIM Watch factory with a ZIM 2602 Movement. On the website he only provided frontal photos like this one. Don't you guys think it looks a bit too new for a 70 year old watch?


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> Another one.
> Saw this watch on a Dutch website, the seller says it is a ZIM Pobeda from 1946 from the ZIM Watch factory with a ZIM 2602 Movement. On the website he only provided frontal photos like this one. Don't you guys think it looks a bit too new for a 70 year old watch?


Condition of old watches can be as good but that one is a more modern design, from the '70s or even later, in my opinion.

Also, it is not a Pobeda, since it doesn't have Pobeda printed on the dial, just a ZIM sub-second from ZIM : 'Zavod Imeni Maslennikova' - Maslennikov Watch Factory, Samara (from, with thanks: https://sekondtime.wordpress.com/factories/), probably with the plain mass-produced movement pictured below which was used into the '90s.
1946 was when the soviets were just beginning to construct prototypes of the first Pobedas, so a very early and incorrect date.


----------



## Jeroenskie

thanks! I think I will pass on this one then


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> thanks! I think I will pass on this one then


Despite the incorrect description, it appears to be an authentic ZIM and might be worth getting at the right price.

This may be it in a '70 catalog:


----------



## JonLabu

Hi all!
Won this on ebay bid.
Can the experts please advise further.
Thanks & regards.
Best,
JL

ps; blame joecool for this "itch" after seeing his wristshot :heart_eyes:


----------



## Aeterno

Raketa Big Zero Peterhof ^^ Dial, minute hand especially, may be all the hands do not compare correctly with typical example. I think these watches were sold to souvenir hunters in St Petersburg. I own one and also compared yours with many typical examples on Google images. The hands may be passable but the dial seems franken to me. Sorry.


----------



## JonLabu

Aeterno said:


> Raketa Big Zero Peterhof ^^ Dial, minute hand especially, may be all the hands do not compare correctly with typical example. I think these watches were sold to souvenir hunters in St Petersburg. I own one and also compared yours with many typical examples on Google images. The hands may be passable but the dial seems franken to me. Sorry.


Hi Aeterno,

Thanks for your frank assessment.
On the other note, I noticed on Google images the opposite!
The hour, minute & second hand to be "fatter".
Hope all not lost(the movement) when the item actually fall-on-my-lap.
Cheers!

Best,
JL


----------



## schnurrp

JonLabu said:


> Hi Aeterno,
> 
> Thanks for your frank assessment.
> On the other note, I noticed on Google images the opposite!
> The hour, minute & second hand to be "fatter".
> Hope all not lost(the movement) when the item actually fall-on-my-lap.
> Cheers!
> 
> Best,
> JL


If one subscribes to the notion that the big zero was originally designed for those with sight problems then the skinny hands don't make sense. I always considered the fat hands, found on no other model, necessary for authenticity. That having been said, the skinny hands do appear with regularity (never in catalogs, however). The dial font appears a little too fat and sharp at the ends of the numbers, the minute marks too bold with continuous connection and attached to the hour marks, and the "made in..." should follow the curve. The movement is not like the typical 2609.HA, lacking shockproofing at the escapement wheel.

A more typical authentic-looking Peterhof from google for comparison:


----------



## JonLabu

Hi Schnurrp,

Thank you for your wise justifications.
Should hold on to my "itch" a little longer.
Hmm. 
Should buyers be issued a red flag towards this seller?
On my end, lessons learned.
Thanks for the insightful, insights.
Cheers!
Best,
JL


----------



## schnurrp

JonLabu said:


> Hi Schnurrp,
> 
> Thank you for your wise justifications.
> Should hold on to my "itch" a little longer.
> Hmm.
> Should buyers be issued a red flag towards this seller?
> On my end, lessons learned.
> Thanks for the insightful, insights.
> Cheers!
> Best,
> JL


You are welcome, comrade. Yes, it is always better to ask for opinions before buying but I know this is not always possible. I hope it is in excellent running condition.


----------



## BadgerState

Hey All,

Looking for a little help identifying the age of a Poljot 3133 I recently won on the Bay. I have tried using Guide - Poljot cal. 3133 to determine the age but there are just a lot of things that could bounce this watch between old with new componenets or new with old components.

Here is the Dial









Here is the Movement










Thank you in advance for any help


----------



## SinanjuStein

Besides the 60 seconds counter hand, is it mostly correct?


----------



## DavidUK

Any thoughts on this Slava? Thanks


----------



## jetcash

Saw this on eBay. Love the idea, but it looks too messy. I've never seen space related big zeroes. Listing says 'custom' dial. Thoughts?
Soviet USSR RAKETA 2609 Watch First Spase Sputnik Custom Dial Big Zero | eBay


----------



## jetcash

Saw this on eBay. Love the idea, but it looks too messy. I've never seen space related big zeroes. Listing says 'custom' dial. Thoughts?
Soviet USSR Raketa 2609 watch. First spase sputnik custom dial. Big Zero.
View attachment 7793530

View attachment 7793538

View attachment 7793554


----------



## schnurrp

For me big zeroes of any kind with skinny hands, nyet!


----------



## jetcash

schnurrp said:


> For me big zeroes of any kind with skinny hands, nyet!


Good point, I didn't even look at the hands. I was so preoccupied with the ink jet image on the dial.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


----------



## hseldon

Any thoughts on this Vostok? Clearly a re lume-but otherwise looks very fresh and shiny overall? Authentic dial or modern reproduction?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

hseldon said:


> Any thoughts on this Vostok? Clearly a re lume-but otherwise looks very fresh and shiny overall? Authentic dial or modern reproduction?


Fake :/

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/new-round-fake-dials-2825658.html


----------



## hseldon

mroatman said:


> Fake :/
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/new-round-fake-dials-2825658.html


Thanks, mroatman. If it looks to good to be true, and all that.


----------



## mrcolonist

hseldon said:


> Thanks, mroatman. If it looks to good to be true, and all that.


It's odd, I have bought three Vostoks from that seller and from what I can tell, they aren't franken (though one is semi broken. Stops after a few minutes and starts only after given a tap, I'll try to clean and oil it). But now on his site, all the Amphibians seem to be franken?


----------



## A thicker plot

Hi all.I've been lurking for a while, trying to pick up as much information from you guys as possible. Your knowledge has been very welcome, thank you.So now I think it's time I came out ofthe woodwork, said hello and ask some questions...I already have an Amphibia and Komandirskie, which get more wrist time than any others in my collection, just love 'em and now want to “progress” to a chrono.I don't want to ask stupid questions, but I think I'm about to none the less, please be gentle I'd really love an Okeah, understand their rarity, and with the knowledge gained here, have dismissed most on the Bay, there are one or two that look authentic to me, at around the £500 to £700 range, but there is one that looks, well, a bit too cheap to be true.The face, albeit a bit knackered, looks ok to me as does the movement (please correct me guys) and I can't see any brass coming through the case, so could be stainless, but what's with the case back? Obviously wrong.So I don't know if this is a civilian which has had, what appears to me to be, a genuine period face transplant, a gen Okeah with an incorrect case back, or even a complete FrankenAs I can't post links yet, please take a look at e-bay number 371555381156What are your thoughts please?Are there any on the Bay which strike you as completely correct or any other outlets which I should be looking in?This will be a big purchase for me, I'm not rich, and know I will need to set some cash aside for a service, so want to be as comfortable as possible before hitting the button. If that means spending more for the right one then so be it.Cheers.ATP


----------



## A thicker plot

Sorry guys, the site does not appear to allow me to formate correctly, so apologies for the look of my above post


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Poljot Buran.

I'm bidding a Poljot Buran watch on eBay, but I dont know it is legit or franken. So Can you help me? And What year was it made?
Thank you.


----------



## amiga1

wondering if my Komandirskie Paratrooper is franken or not, as i can't find this dial with this caseback and bezel anywhere.


----------



## elsoldemayo

A thicker plot said:


> Hi all.I've been lurking for a while, trying to pick up as much information from you guys as possible. Your knowledge has been very welcome, thank you.So now I think it's time I came out ofthe woodwork, said hello and ask some questions...I already have an Amphibia and Komandirskie, which get more wrist time than any others in my collection, just love 'em and now want to "progress" to a chrono.I don't want to ask stupid questions, but I think I'm about to none the less, please be gentle I'd really love an Okeah, understand their rarity, and with the knowledge gained here, have dismissed most on the Bay, there are one or two that look authentic to me, at around the £500 to £700 range, but there is one that looks, well, a bit too cheap to be true.The face, albeit a bit knackered, looks ok to me as does the movement (please correct me guys) and I can't see any brass coming through the case, so could be stainless, but what's with the case back? Obviously wrong.So I don't know if this is a civilian which has had, what appears to me to be, a genuine period face transplant, a gen Okeah with an incorrect case back, or even a complete FrankenAs I can't post links yet, please take a look at e-bay number 371555381156What are your thoughts please?Are there any on the Bay which strike you as completely correct or any other outlets which I should be looking in?This will be a big purchase for me, I'm not rich, and know I will need to set some cash aside for a service, so want to be as comfortable as possible before hitting the button. If that means spending more for the right one then so be it.Cheers.ATP


Based on the Okeah shown on Polmax's site, the dial, case etc. look ok, but the case back is a replacement and the movement is from later watches, 1986 onward.


----------



## Straight_time

I also have a few doubts about the hands.... light reflections can greatly change their perceived color, but in all those pictures taken at many different angles they always look indeed blued to me, rather than silver as they should be. :think:

If this is true, you'd have

- sale price $379 :-!
- shipping $45 :roll:
- "dubious" movement :-s
- wrong hands :-(
- missing caseback :rodekaart

Fixing the last 2 points is possible, but it sure wouldn't be cheap; always hoping that the movement, after a deeper analysis, is correct..
So in conclusion you'd probably end up paying the same (high) amount usually needed for a 100% legitimate watch, for which you wouldn't get mad sourcing the needed spares.

Honestly, if the money was mine, I'd keep it in my wallet and would go on looking around for a better one.


----------



## A thicker plot

Straight_time said:


> I also have a few doubts about the hands.... light reflections can greatly change their perceived color, but in all those pictures taken at many different angles they always look indeed blued to me, rather than silver as they should be. :think:
> 
> If this is true, you'd have
> 
> - sale price $379 :-!
> - shipping $45 :roll:
> - "dubious" movement :-s
> - wrong hands :-(
> - missing caseback :rodekaart
> 
> Fixing the last 2 points is possible, but it sure wouldn't be cheap; always hoping that the movement, after a deeper analysis, is correct..
> So in conclusion you'd probably end up paying the same (high) amount usually needed for a 100% legitimate watch, for which you wouldn't get mad sourcing the needed spares.
> 
> Honestly, if the money was mine, I'd keep it in my wallet and would go on looking around for a better one.


Thank you chaps
I must admit, I completely missed the hands. If it was just a case back I may have gone for it, but if the movement is wrong and the hands suspect, I will give it a miss.
There are others on there so I may be asking similar advice later in the week.
Thank you for now
ATP


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Poljot Buran.
> 
> I'm bidding a Poljot Buran watch on eBay, but I dont know it is legit or franken. So Can you help me? And What year was it made?
> Thank you.


I am far from expert on these post-USSR (any) 3133s but looking at the catalog examples of the Burans they all appear to have a red mark on the bezel at 12 o'clock. A small detail but this would create some doubt in my mind.

I now notice, too, that the bezel has a flat area where it contacts the crystal. Not good. Is it a true bezel put on backward?

From 2002 catalog, not exactly the same. Minute hand is slightly different and case looks different. Worth buying only if the price is very right, in my opinion:


----------



## elsoldemayo

schnurrp said:


> I am far from expert on these post-USSR (any) 3133s but looking at the catalog examples of the Burans they all appear to have a red mark on the bezel at 12 o'clock. A small detail but this would create some doubt in my mind.
> 
> I now notice, too, that the bezel has a flat area where it contacts the crystal. Not good. Is it a true bezel put on backward?
> 
> From 2002 catalog, not exactly the same. Minute hand is slightly different. Worth buying only if the price is very right, in my opinion:


They're not bezels, just part of the case. I'm pretty sure I've seen that model without the red mark. Or maybe the case has been swapped to the very similar case shown below.


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> They're not bezels, just part of the case. I'm pretty sure I've seen that model without the red mark. Or maybe the case has been swapped to the very similar case shown below.
> 
> View attachment 7831562


That appears to be the case. The dial on Luke's example appears identical to the catalog dial with Cyrillic "Poljot" above 12 and Cyrillic "Made in Russia" below 6. Maybe dial was switched?


----------



## Protocol7

Hi there! First time posting on this forum but a long time Vostok collector.

I have here an album with an unidentifiable, inexpensive Vostok watch I purchased on eBay

Here's the album:

http_://imgur.com/a/qRNTu
(remove the underscore) - Hope this is okay with my low post count!

A couple notes of my own:

1. I don't recognize the bezel at all.
2. The caseback seems like it doesn't match, as I'm used to seeing Vostok casebacks with at least some information on them.
3. As far as I can tell, it's an authentic 2416 B movement.
4. The dial seems like it would be far too much effort to make and sell as a counterfeit.
5. It's advertised as water resistant but doesn't appear have any O-ring on the inside?

Here's some more information from the listing:

20mm lug width (confirmed by asking seller directly, and doing a bit of my own measurements)
28mm dial diameter
39mm case diameter w/o crown
The claim the date of manufacture is betwen 1990-1999.

Any thoughts?


----------



## ThePossumKing

Protocol7 said:


> Hi there! First time posting on this forum but a long time Vostok collector.
> 
> I have here an album with an unidentifiable, inexpensive Vostok watch I purchased on eBay
> 
> Here's the album:
> 
> http_://imgur.com/a/qRNTu
> (remove the underscore) - Hope this is okay with my low post count!
> 
> A couple notes of my own:
> 
> 1. I don't recognize the bezel at all.
> 2. The caseback seems like it doesn't match, as I'm used to seeing Vostok casebacks with at least some information on them.
> 3. As far as I can tell, it's an authentic 2416 B movement.
> 4. The dial seems like it would be far too much effort to make and sell as a counterfeit.
> 5. It's advertised as water resistant but doesn't appear have any O-ring on the inside?
> 
> Here's some more information from the listing:
> 
> 20mm lug width (confirmed by asking seller directly, and doing a bit of my own measurements)
> 28mm dial diameter
> 39mm case diameter w/o crown
> The claim the date of manufacture is betwen 1990-1999.
> 
> Any thoughts?


It looks ok to me. Probably one of the subsidiaries like Vostok Partner or Cardi-Vostok. I wouldn't trust any snap case back as being water resistant. If it runs well, I would pull the movement for a custom build and scrap the rest, but thats just me


----------



## ThePossumKing

Picked this up last weekend at the local monthly flea market from some ancient crone who had a table full of matryoshkas, babushkas, and tea cups and saucers with one little jewelry box in the middle with some amber jewelry, a few Molnija pocket watches and this 3133. I asked her if I could see the watch and she said 'yah...but first you give me your watch so you no decide to run away with my watch'. I smiled and handed her my green dialed 2409 restomod that I was wearing and she handed me this watch. I wound it up a little, saw it was running, checked the chrono functions for a few minutes and saw that they worked fine and asked her how much she wanted for it. She looked up at me and said 'you wearing Soviet Vostok...Shturmanski is big improvement. You give me $200'. Well, after haggling for about 20 minutes with me pointing out that this looked like a Daytona that came out of Taiwan in the early '80s, she finally said 'ok...you give me $40 to get your watch back and you keep this one for free'. So I bought it.

It looks like the movement is a legit P3133 IMHO and it runs well and all the functions work, but did they ever put Shturmanskis in such an obviously cheap Daytona knock-off case and are the movement, hands or dial even close to being legit? I love 3133s, but everytime I look at Polmax's site, I get even more confused as to whats real...

The worst part of it was when the old baba told me 'you come see me next month, tatuirovannyy paren'...I got lots more old watches that you will buy'


----------



## mroatman

ThePossumKing said:


> ....The worst part of it was when the old baba told me 'you come see me next month, tatuirovannyy paren'...I got lots more old watches that you will buy'


Ha! Don't know about the watch, but I love the story.


----------



## schnurrp

ThePossumKing said:


> Picked this up last weekend at the local monthly flea market from some ancient crone who had a table full of matryoshkas, babushkas, and tea cups and saucers with one little jewelry box in the middle with some amber jewelry, a few Molnija pocket watches and this 3133. I asked her if I could see the watch and she said 'yah...but first you give me your watch so you no decide to run away with my watch'. I smiled and handed her my green dialed 2409 restomod that I was wearing and she handed me this watch. I wound it up a little, saw it was running, checked the chrono functions for a few minutes and saw that they worked fine and asked her how much she wanted for it. She looked up at me and said 'you wearing Soviet Vostok...Shturmanski is big improvement. You give me $200'. Well, after haggling for about 20 minutes with me pointing out that this looked like a Daytona that came out of Taiwan in the early '80s, she finally said 'ok...you give me $40 to get your watch back and you keep this one for free'. So I bought it.
> 
> It looks like the movement is a legit P3133 IMHO and it runs well and all the functions work, but did they ever put Shturmanskis in such an obviously cheap Daytona knock-off case and are the movement, hands or dial even close to being legit? I love 3133s, but everytime I look at Polmax's site, I get even more confused as to whats real...
> 
> The worst part of it was when the old baba told me 'you come see me next month, tatuirovannyy paren'...I got lots more old watches that you will buy'
> 
> View attachment 7841682
> View attachment 7841690
> View attachment 7841698


You may have a winner, comrade. Very similar to this '97-98' Poljot International offering (to my eyes, anyway):


----------



## ffeingol

@ThePossumKing Great story. And I bet you will be back for more.


----------



## ThePossumKing

schnurrp said:


> You may have a winner, comrade. Very similar to this '97-98' Poljot International offering (to my eyes, anyway):
> 
> View attachment 7843738


Thank you, schnurrp...it may be gawd-awful ugly, but at least its real!


----------



## Ham2

' She looked up at me and said 'you wearing Soviet Vostok...Shturmanski is big improvement. You give me $200'. 

She was evidently a connoisseur. Great story


----------



## stadiou

Just how much of a franken is this contraption ?? USSR. Soviet mechanical wristwatch CHRONOGRAPH military stile, one button. 19j. | eBay
I do like the look of the thing even if it's far from genuine


----------



## schnurrp

stadiou said:


> Just how much of a franken is this contraption ?? USSR. Soviet mechanical wristwatch CHRONOGRAPH military stile, one button. 19j. | eBay
> I do like the look of the thing even if it's far from genuine


Pictured below is what the movement should be in. All the rest is completely made up, in my opinion. "far from genuine" is an understatement.


----------



## stadiou

schnurrp said:


> Pictured below is what the movement should be in. All the rest is completely made up, in my opinion. "far from genuine" is an understatement.
> 
> View attachment 7879106


Well aware of the pocket watch version, however the case appears to be a factory made item for a wristwatch......were any converted back in the day. Obviously, that dial is nothing more than a flight of fancy.


----------



## schnurrp

I have taken a closer look at the case which does seem to fit the movement rather well and is equipped with a double back which I don't think you can buy off the shelf today.

However, if you take a close look at the lugs they appear to have been soldered on but that could be the way it was done back then, I don't know.

Mark Gordon has a wristwatch version with similar hands and the case is somewhat similar but no back is shown (Images for ID: 0014) and the dial/movement orientation is different with "12" on the side opposite the crown.









However, Mark believes it is a custom made case to allow the stopwatch movement/dial to be used as a wristwatch.


----------



## stadiou

schnurrp said:


> I have taken a closer look at the case which does seem to fit the movement rather well and is equipped with a double back which I don't think you can buy off the shelf today.
> 
> However, if you take a close look at the lugs they appear to have been soldered on but that could be the way it was done back then, I don't know.
> 
> Mark Gordon has a wristwatch version with similar hands and the case is somewhat similar but no back is shown (Images for ID: 0014) and the dial/movement orientation is different with "12" on the side opposite the crown.
> 
> View attachment 7881522
> 
> 
> However, Mark believes it is a custom made case to allow the stopwatch movement/dial to be used as a wristwatch.


Logical, as few people would actually want the pocket watch and a case probably was cheaper than replacing the whole shoot.


----------



## mroatman

stadiou said:


> Logical, as few people would actually want the pocket watch and a case probably was cheaper than replacing the whole shoot.


Here is some information:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/molnija-chronograph-quartet-2902186.html


----------



## fliegerchrono

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Just got this one, stainless steel case but no brushing around the crystal, plain caseback that could be a replacement, silvergrey air force dial, replaced minutes hand and a chrono seconds hand that I am not sure about. The movement looks to me like around 1978 and is signed 3-89. What do you guys think?


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



fliegerchrono said:


> Just got this one, stainless steel case but no brushing around the crystal, plain caseback that could be a replacement, silvergrey air force dial, replaced minutes hand and a chrono seconds hand that I am not sure about. The movement looks to me like around 1978 and is signed 3-89. What do you guys think?


Quick assessment is that there are some decent parts there but it has the look of a seller/builder opening the parts drawer and trying to come up with something. Worth buying only if the price is right, imho.


----------



## fliegerchrono

Price was right


----------



## schnurrp

fliegerchrono said:


> Price was right


Glad to hear that, comrade.

If you're sure the case, crowns, and pushers are stainless, I'd look for replacement main hands (unless you luck out and find a minute hand to match the hour hand), a replacement chrono second hand (that one's for a special 31659 sturmanskie so it may have some value) and then work on a case back with the proper sturmanskie graphic. The movement seems to be quite mixed up but, hopefully, it's working well. Does not have the steel wheels of a very old movement nor does it have the two part reset lever. Also the date on the balance bridge is not what you'd expect on an older movement. Again, hope it's working well and then you will like it and tell yourself that the comrade pilot watchmaker put all those parts in there to keep it flying!

Forgot to say the dial and inner bezel appear decent, from what I can see and I was going to ask you what you mean by "no brushing around the crystal".


----------



## svorkoetter

schnurrp said:


> Forgot to say the dial and inner bezel appear decent, from what I can see and I was going to ask
> you what you mean by "no brushing around the crystal".


I think he means that with this case style, this part is usually radially brushed, but it's smooth on his example:









Photo borrowed from Poljot24.de (and then edited).


----------



## schnurrp

Ah, yes, I see. Thanks, svorkoetter. Mine has that "brushing", too.


----------



## kev80e

Tempted by this , but any idea on this case ? don't recall seeing one before.


----------



## schnurrp

That looks like a "case type unknown" komandirskie, comrade.

Please give your wife my name as someone to contact upon your death if she's trying to get rid of all those cheap old Russian watches.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I find this Vostok watch on eBay. 
So, is it legit or franken? What's about the crown?




























Thank you very much.


----------



## kev80e

schnurrp said:


> That looks like a "case type unknown" komandirskie, comrade.
> 
> Please give your wife my name as someone to contact upon your death if she's trying to get rid of all those cheap old Russian watches.


Thanks Schnurrp, glad it isn't just me that doesn't know this case. Wife instructed to contact you for watch disposal  .

My offer was accepted so it's on its way.


----------



## schnurrp

Looks good to me Lucky_Luke, for this very popular dial with an older movement. Couldn't find it in a mid '60s or earlier Vostok catalog which is when that movement would be seen, but catalogs showing 2809s for the mid60s aren't available to me. Crown is "50/50" in my opinion but certainly not the obvious new objectionable replacement. Crown looks a little big or seller is using a wide angle lens.

Has some pretty bad case edge wear at the crown from winding which most 2809s have to a certain degree, depending on age and use, some so bad it's hard to screw in back retaining ring.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

This is a poljot chronograph watch with Soviet flag and Japanese flag. I think it is legit. 
And you, please tell me what about this watch.


----------



## kev80e

Lucky_Luke said:


> This is a poljot chronograph watch with Soviet flag and Japanese flag. I think it is legit.
> And you, please tell me what about this watch.


Looks good to me. Assuming it has the correct movement.


----------



## schnurrp

Here it is in '92 Poljot catalog. Probably commemorating the normalization of relations between the post-soviet government of Boris Yeltsin, who took office in 1991, and the government of Japan.


----------



## kenb86

What do you think of this Sturmanskie? Does it appear genuine? Would this have been a military issue watch or commercial? Any information is appreciated.


----------



## schnurrp

Looks good to me. Late '80s early '90s military pilot's watch with hacking.

Best way to check for hacking is to look for pin engaged by forked lever. This mechanism is not present on the 3133s. Lever, moved by pulling out the crown stem, moves another longer lever with a tiny spring which is rotated into contact with the balance wheel to stop the watch.


----------



## haejuk

What do the experts think of this one? Original, mostly original, or franken? As far as I can figure this is an early 80s military issue Sturmanskie, but I'm no expert. It has the same caseback style as the last watch posted above. What do you think?


----------



## MattBrace

All looks good to me and your assumptions are correct.

just needs a clean up.



haejuk said:


> What do the experts think of this one? Original, mostly original, or franken? As far as I can figure this is an early 80s military issue Sturmanskie, but I'm no expert. It has the same caseback style as the last watch posted above. What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 7990834
> 
> View attachment 7990842


----------



## kev80e

haejuk said:


> What do the experts think of this one? Original, mostly original, or franken? As far as I can figure this is an early 80s military issue Sturmanskie, but I'm no expert. It has the same caseback style as the last watch posted above. What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 7990834
> 
> View attachment 7990842


Looks great, I almost bid on this , congratulations if you got it.


----------



## haejuk

I actually was able to win it (apologies to those who also bid), though I don't know if I paid too much or not. 
What would I need to do to clean it up? This is my first vintage watch.


----------



## mroatman

haejuk said:


> What do the experts think of this one? Original, mostly original, or franken? As far as I can figure this is an early 80s military issue Sturmanskie, but I'm no expert. It has the same caseback style as the last watch posted above. What do you think?


Shouldn't all the chrono wheels match in color, i.e. all gold or all silver?

I would place this one comfortably in the "mostly original" category.


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Shouldn't all the chrono wheels match in color, i.e. all gold or all silver?
> 
> I would place this one comfortably in the "mostly original" category.


Not necessarily, couldn't link this so a screen shot from Polmax's site.


----------



## schnurrp

haejuk said:


> I actually was able to win it (apologies to those who also bid), though I don't know if I paid too much or not.
> What would I need to do to clean it up? This is my first vintage watch.


I agree with the others, it has a lot going for it, at the right price. The only thing that worried me was that the over-exposed dial picture may be hiding some additional marks like the ones seen around the base of the main hands.


----------



## mroatman

...


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Not necessarily, couldn't link this so a screen shot from Polmax's site.


I give up.


----------



## haejuk

schnurrp said:


> I agree with the others, it has a lot going for it, at the right price. The only thing that worried me was that the over-exposed dial picture may be hiding some additional marks like the ones seen around the base of the main hands.


I guess we will just have to wait and see. I am just happy to get one in decent condition with this two-tone dial and a stainless steel case. The only thing I wish was a little better is the lume triangle on the rotating bezel/chapterwheel thing. I'll post pictures when I finally get it and find a matching bracelet.


----------



## schnurrp

haejuk said:


> I guess we will just have to wait and see. I am just happy to get one in decent condition with this two-tone dial and a stainless steel case. The only thing I wish was a little better is the lume triangle on the rotating bezel/chapterwheel thing. I'll post pictures when I finally get it and find a matching bracelet.


Yes, I noticed that but personally I would trade that little bit of missing lume for what appears to be the rest of the original lume in place and not half of it gone or mis-matching re-lumed hands.

But you will have to be into the "used, vintage, authentic" vibe to enjoy it 'cause it's never going to look new.

Welcome to vintage watch collecting!

As far as cleaning, it depends on your level of expertise. I would take it apart back, case, dial, hands crystal and movement, set the movement aside and clean everything else with warm water and detergent and a soft toothbrush (except for the dial and hands which I would just rinse off after a soak, no brushing), rinse, let dry, polish the crystal and re-assemble.


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> I give up.


Know that feeling.


----------



## stadiou

kev80e said:


> Know that feeling.


+1. Many times over.....


----------



## Rodion

Hello all,

In February I purchased this 50s Pobeda - my first Russian (or mechanical, for that matter). Some research on this forum gave me confidence in the eBay seller, svtrrts, who many here have had good experiences with.

It stopped working last week, and is at the jeweler's for servicing. The watchmaker said that nothing was broken and it should be alright after being cleaned and oiled. I love the watch, so that is good news. Just curious if the experts here can spot anything dubious - it would be nice knowing whether it's all original or not.

Thoughts?


----------



## stadiou

Looks fine to me.


----------



## mroatman

Rodion said:


> Hello all,
> 
> In February I purchased this 50s Pobeda - my first Russian (or mechanical, for that matter). Some research on this forum gave me confidence in the eBay seller, svtrrts, who many here have had good experiences with.
> 
> It stopped working last week, and is at the jeweler's for servicing. The watchmaker said that nothing was broken and it should be alright after being cleaned and oiled. I love the watch, so that is good news. Just curious if the experts here can spot anything dubious - it would be nice knowing whether it's all original or not.
> 
> Thoughts?


Too bad it needs a service already. That's surprising coming from such a reputable seller.

As for the authenticity, it looks perfect to me. You can find this popular Pobeda featured in the 1953 catalog here.


----------



## ninjastyle

Hoping the experts can weigh in on this one for me... Thinking about getting this bad boy but I'm a little skeptical. Is the dial a modern reproduction? What about the rest of the watch? Thanks tons for the assist


----------



## ThePossumKing

ninjastyle said:


> Hoping the experts can weigh in on this one for me... Thinking about getting this bad boy but I'm a little skeptical. Is the dial a modern reproduction? What about the rest of the watch? Thanks tons for the assist


It's a Komandirskie dial with 'Dirskie hands in an Amphibia case that has been opened a BUNCH of times. Unless it's dirt cheap, I'd give it a pass


----------



## Arizone

I was intrigued by this lovely orange dial, but then I realized the case, crown, and minute hand are from the more common quartz divers. The second hand is missing its tail as well. Disappointed.


----------



## ninjastyle

ThePossumKing said:


> It's a Komandirskie dial with 'Dirskie hands in an Amphibia case that has been opened a BUNCH of times. Unless it's dirt cheap, I'd give it a pass


Thanks for the advice. I'll avoid it then. Just for my own education, what do you think about the movement?

And, is the practice of putting Komandirskie parts into an Amphibia case pretty common?


----------



## schnurrp

ninjastyle said:


> Thanks for the advice. I'll avoid it then. Just for my own education, what do you think about the movement?
> 
> And, is the practice of putting Komandirskie parts into an Amphibia case pretty common?


The vintage amphibians with the Vostok 24xx movements usually have the 2409 no date movement, or less-commonly the automatic 2416 with date. The 2414 hand-wound movement with date, which that one appears to have since it is not labeled automatic on the back, is usually found only in the komandirskie with a few exceptions such as the desert storm commemorative which was put out in every conceivable combination.

It is possible your example is an authentic product of the Chistopol factory which, during that time following the fall of the USSR, was producing a variety of products using left-over stock, but provenance is hard to come by. Someone may have one like it which would indicate some authenticity.

It's very easy to remove the komandirskie chrome-plated brass case and substitute a stainless steel amphibian case which may have been done with that one. Not uncommon.


----------



## schnurrp

Arizone said:


> I was intrigued by this lovely orange dial, but then I realized the case, crown, and minute hand are from the more common quartz divers. The second hand is missing its tail as well. Disappointed.


Yes, lovely dial and good observation regarding the hands.

I, too, was interested but upon further inspection following your post, I believe everything except the movement and the dial (maybe the bezel) is from a quartz Raketa. Notice the "no-lug" case, tiny non-screwdown crown, and skinny retaining ring compared to quartz below. Expensive dial!















Looks like the hour hand is authentc. The authentic hands, of which I have a spare set, were used on another popular Raketa:


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Hello again guys, I found a beautiful watch and as something seemed fishy at first glance I asked the seller and he told me it was a raketa movement on a Poljot case and hands. I searched for the original one and I really like the hands of the franken watch more then the ones from the original one. What do you think, how much money would a watch like this worth? I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I still want to know what do you think. It's an auction, so I want to figure out what my maximum bid will be. Thank you!


----------



## ThePossumKing

Andrei Mihaila said:


> Hello again guys, I found a beautiful watch and as something seemed fishy at first glance I asked the seller and he told me it was a raketa movement on a Poljot case and hands. I searched for the original one and I really like the hands of the franken watch more then the ones from the original one. What do you think, how much money would a watch like this worth? I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I still want to know what do you think. It's an auction, so I want to figure out what my maximum bid will be. Thank you!


That watch is all over the place! Soviet Union movement on a dial that says "Russia". Pretty sure the dial is fake as well, but I'm not sure...the whole thing looks like it was cobbled together


----------



## schnurrp

ThePossumKing said:


> That watch is all over the place! Soviet Union movement on a dial that says "Russia". Pretty sure the dial is fake as well, but I'm not sure...the whole thing looks like it was cobbled together


Also Poljot case back with Raketa movement.


----------



## elsoldemayo

These 24hr watches were discussed a while back. Despite the dubious heritage I bought one and it's a very nice watch if the price (definitely < $100) is right and it has a genuine 24hr movement which that one does. Many I've seen on ebay have a 2609.HA movement if memory serves.


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> These 24hr watches were discussed a while back. Despite the dubious heritage I bought one and it's a very nice watch if the price (definitely < $100) is right and it has a genuine 24hr movement which that one does. Many I've seen on ebay have a 2609.HA movement if memory serves.


I suppose this can be said of many "frankens" but if the purpose of this thread is to get opinions on whether a particular watch ever left a known Russian watch factory in the configuration presented (this may be too narrow a description), in this case I would have to say, in my opinion: no.

The decision to buy is still, as always, a personal one.


----------



## Carlaclunie

Real or fake please help


----------



## DJW GB

Hi all , just out of curiosity this came into my possession and i wondered if it was cobbled together or not . Any comments accepted you wont offend me.:-!

Here's my thoughts ,the hands look paketa style and the movement is i think paketa by the logo . Not sure about the dial . I think the crystal is original with a good polish . It is 35 mm wide
(inc the crown) which has RW on it? Also the bezel is a bit unfamiliar . At the moment it's keeping perfect time . Either way not bothered as i like it. Thanks for your thoughts, DW.


----------



## heimdalg

Raketa Russia. Everything is okay with him besides crown who is replaced in my opinion.







More pictures with my watch here :
http://www.ceasornicar.ro/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=32859


----------



## DJW GB

Thankyou so much heimdalg your example is lovely though it shows how much mine is worn , then again for the age of it I suppose its good. Yes you are right I do think the crown is wrong , the logo looks familiar but I cannot remember where I have seen it before. Thankyou for your comments. DW.

Billy Super Duper


----------



## schnurrp

DJW GB said:


> Hi all , just out of curiosity this came into my possession and i wondered if it was cobbled together or not . Any comments accepted you wont offend me.:-!
> 
> Here's my thoughts ,the hands look paketa style and the movement is i think paketa by the logo . Not sure about the dial . I think the crystal is original with a good polish . It is 35 mm wide
> (inc the crown) which has RW on it? Also the bezel is a bit unfamiliar . At the moment it's keeping perfect time . Either way not bothered as i like it. Thanks for your thoughts, DW.
> 
> View attachment 8079722
> 
> 
> View attachment 8079730
> 
> 
> View attachment 8079746
> 
> 
> View attachment 8079754
> 
> 
> View attachment 8079770


I don't remember seeing this one in a catalog but there is one in Antonov's collection. I do think, however, that the movement may have been replaced since it has the diamond Raketa logo instead of the "sumo wrestler". Perhaps this model spans both periods. It's too bad the dial logo is missing.


----------



## JRMTactical

Andrei Mihaila said:


> Hello again guys, I found a beautiful watch and as something seemed fishy at first glance I asked the seller and he told me it was a raketa movement on a Poljot case and hands. I searched for the original one and I really like the hands of the franken watch more then the ones from the original one. What do you think, how much money would a watch like this worth? I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I still want to know what do you think. It's an auction, so I want to figure out what my maximum bid will be. Thank you!
> View attachment 8076218
> View attachment 8076202
> View attachment 8076210


Here's a couple of similar dials from the "bay".....

What it looks like is a dial from some of the "new" Shturmanskie Legacy Quartz and Mechanical offerings. Obviously this isn't one but I've noticed a UA seller th several of these being offered and called "Poljot" as well.... Pretty underhanded in my humble opinion!

Sturmanskie Heritage Sputnik Russian Quartz Watch 51524 3301804 UK Seller Boxed | eBay

Sturmanskie Mens Watch 2614 02 1121500 No 439 500 New | eBay


----------



## mroatman

DJW GB said:


> Hi all , just out of curiosity this came into my possession and i wondered if it was cobbled together or not . Any comments accepted you wont offend me.:-!
> Here's my thoughts ,the hands look paketa style and the movement is i think paketa by the logo . Not sure about the dial . I think the crystal is original with a good polish . It is 35 mm wide
> (inc the crown) which has RW on it? Also the bezel is a bit unfamiliar . At the moment it's keeping perfect time . Either way not bothered as i like it. Thanks for your thoughts, DW.





heimdalg said:


> Raketa Russia. Everything is okay with him besides crown who is replaced in my opinion.
> More pictures with my watch here :
> Ceasornicar.ro â€¢ Vezi subiect - Adunatura mea - CÐ´ÐµÐ»Ð°Ð½Ð¾ Ð² Ð.Ð¾Ñ�Ñ�Ð¸Ð¸/CCCP


Interesting. I've always wondered about these faceted cases and can't seem to find any rhyme or reason as to where they show up. I have several versions of this textured "flower" dial Raketa in both gold-plated and chromed cases, central and sub-second hand, domestic and export -- and none have the faceted case. These appear in three catalogs, and still no faceted case. And yet, heimdalg's example looks dang near NOS :-s


----------



## JRMTactical

Pretty funny because I placed a bid on one of these Raketa's in the same style case early today! I saw it and remarked that I hadn't seenone of these "filigree" dial Raketa's in anything other than a round case. I have a Raketa or two in this same style case but not with this particular dial. Starting price was cheap so I decided to take a shot at it!


----------



## DJW GB

Thanks for all the info guy's it's very much appreciated.

Billy Super Duper


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

JRMTactical said:


> Here's a couple of similar dials from the "bay".....
> 
> What it looks like is a dial from some of the "new" Shturmanskie Legacy Quartz and Mechanical offerings. Obviously this isn't one but I've noticed a UA seller th several of these being offered and called "Poljot" as well.... Pretty underhanded in my humble opinion!
> 
> Sturmanskie Heritage Sputnik Russian Quartz Watch 51524 3301804 UK Seller Boxed | eBay
> 
> Sturmanskie Mens Watch 2614 02 1121500 No 439 500 New | eBay


This is what I find really strange, I can't find this dial anywhere. Besides those Sturmanskie Sputnik, but they are not exactly the same, and they have date. I wonder who made the dial, I don't think its a local artist or something  I found a few more on internet, exact dial but different hands. And they all sport a Raketa movement.

@schnurrp, you are right and I'm sorry, I know it wasn't the best place to ask my question, but I knew that all the experts take a look at this topic. Thank you for you're help.

I like to travel around the world and if this watch wouldn't have Russia written on it and the little red star it would be a perfect travelling watch with the world map on the dial. If you wouldn't know anything about the watch, at first look, how does it look? Do you like it? Are those hands ok, they seem a little big to me, but I'm not sure.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hey everyone! I just bought this Pobeda red 12 from 1948 on ebay. But now that I look closer it seems like the inscriptions on the movement don't really look exactly alike. The 15 kahmen seems a bit sloppier and thicker than the 2-48. Does this mean it is made up out of two different watches or can this be normal?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## schnurrp

I think it's fine. That long ago they were just getting the kinks out. Here's a similar one for sale on ebay now from a seller whose other offerings do not contain a single obvious franken:









If it was pieced together whoever did it went to the trouble of finding bridges that matched. It wouldn't bother me.


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> Hey everyone! I just bought this Pobeda red 12 from 1948 on ebay. But now that I look closer it seems like the inscriptions on the movement don't really look exactly alike. The 15 kahmen seems a bit sloppier and thicker than the 2-48. Does this mean it is made up out of two different watches or can this be normal?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


The ratchet wheel and balance assembly are replaced, in my opinion.

Notice:
- Stars on the ratchet wheel.
- No decoration on the balance cock.
- Smooth, non-studded balance

But the bridges in question look fine to me


----------



## haejuk

What do I have here? I picked it up really cheap from the bay because someone said it needed repair because it wasn't able to set the time. The only problem I actually found is that the date flips over at 5:00, which is easy to fix. The pics are bad, really difficult to get good pictures of these with my phone. My current assumption is that the dial is a reprint or was put into a new case (seems to be in good condition for a watch manufactured during Soviet era), no idea about the movement. This is just some Franken-Komandirskie, right?

A few detail that are not apparent in the terrible pics:
The case-back and screw down ring are a slightly different color than the case. The case is a brighter silver (chromed or not? can't tell). The dial does have a scratch that looks like it was caused by a watch hand due to the curve. Also claims it was made in CCCP on dial.


----------



## Jeroenskie

mroatman said:


> The ratchet wheel and balance assembly are replaced, in my opinion.
> 
> Notice:
> - Stars on the ratchet wheel.
> - No decoration on the balance cock.
> - Smooth, non-studded balance
> 
> But the bridges in question look fine to me


Thanks Schnurrp and Mroatman! This helps me a lot!

Most important to me is that this watch was actually made in 1948. That a few non-original parts have been used to repair it does not really bother me too much, more important is that it runs alright and that the dial is reasonably clean.


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> Thanks Schnurrp and Mroatman! This helps me a lot!
> 
> Most important to me is that this watch was actually made in 1948. That a few non-original parts have been used to repair it does not really bother me too much, more important is that it runs alright and that the dial is reasonably clean.


Yes, there are some replacement parts but from what I can see there appears to be the appropriate machining marks on the balance bridge, although somewhat faint, and only the wheel itself has been replaced with a newer one.


----------



## kinkkukierre

Really liked the look of this and am happy with the watch, but does anyone have any info on this? Looks like the mechanics are from a 12H watch (2609 HA) according to previous posts


----------



## schnurrp

kinkkukierre said:


> Really liked the look of this and am happy with the watch, but does anyone have any info on this? Looks like the mechanics are from a 12H watch (2609 HA) according to previous posts
> View attachment 8165874
> 
> View attachment 8165890
> 
> View attachment 8165898
> 
> View attachment 8165914


This belongs to a group of "Raketas" of questionable origin, in my opinion. These, more than likely, came into existence as a result of the economic and social turmoil surrounding the break up of the soviet union, most likely products of a cottage industry, but definitely not out the doors of the Raketa Watch Factory in St. Petersburg, Russia.

The movement, a Raketa 12 hour 2609, has been modified to function as a 24 hour 2623. See here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/analysis-raketa-2609-2623-24-hour-movements-894141.html

I hope it runs well and you can enjoy it for what it is.

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## kinkkukierre

Thought as much, the face and case are in such a good condition it was always unlikely for this to be 46 years of age! I wonder if the watch face was an actual one used in 1970 or just a retrospective done around early 90s

Seems to run well. It was still ticking when I unpacked it yesteday (had been sent to me at the end of March) and has kept time for 24h by now. So definitely worth it for me, even if not a real Soviet relic 

Thanks for the info! Very interesting


----------



## schnurrp

kinkkukierre said:


> Thought as much, the face and case are in such a good condition it was always unlikely for this to be 46 years of age! I wonder if the watch face was an actual one used in 1970 or just a retrospective done around early 90s
> 
> Seems to run well. It was still ticking when I unpacked it yesteday (had been sent to me at the end of March) and has kept time for 24h by now. So definitely worth it for me, even if not a real Soviet relic
> 
> Thanks for the info! Very interesting


Dial is totally made up, in my opinion, and never saw the inside of the Raketa factory.

If you continue collecting you may be able to use some of those parts to help restore an incomplete authentic product.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hi, I saw this Copernic on Ebay for a very low price, just 30 dollars, However on all the Copernics I've seen it either said 'made in the USSR' or 'made in Russia' (in Russian of course) on the dial. However, this on has nothing written on it. What does this mean? 

Another thing, I think it is the correct movement for a Copernic right?


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi, I saw this Copernic on Ebay for a very low price, just 30 dollars, However on all the Copernics I've seen it either said 'made in the USSR' or 'made in Russia' (in Russian of course) on the dial. However, this on has nothing written on it. What does this mean?
> 
> Another thing, I think it is the correct movement for a Copernic right?


Everything looks good to me, including the movement. I think the "Made in USSR" text is there, just obscured by the crystal. On mine, you can barely make out the text, even when viewed straight on (see here and here).

Sputnique is is a reliable seller, in my experience, if you can get the right price.


----------



## Jeroenskie

mroatman said:


> Everything looks good to me, including the movement. I think the "Made in USSR" text is there, just obscured by the crystal. On mine, you can barely make out the text, even when viewed straight on (see here and here).
> 
> Sputnique is is a reliable seller, in my experience, if you can get the right price.


Thanks! Yours are in a very nice condition Roatman! Love your site btw, I wasn't aware there were so many dressy Raketa's!

But about the Copernic I posted above, don't you think it is in quite a good condition for just $30?


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> I wasn't aware there were so many dressy Raketa's!
> 
> But about the Copernic I posted above, don't you think it is in quite a good condition for just $30?


Not as many as before Mroatman started collecting.

For me, the dial is a little dirty and the hour hand has some marks. I have become picky so I would not be buying but I think it's worth $30, if those minor defects don't bother you. Looks authentic if the crystal is right. Should be flat with perpendicular shoulders.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Not as many as before Mroatman started collecting.


Oops.


----------



## Karsten

I am on the hunt for a Kirovskie k43 type 1 from WW2

I wonder if this is worth bidding on, or it is a franken?

Is the dial and hands correct, according to date stamp 3-42 ?
The dial lacks the normal cracks in the enamel/porcelain.

The winding wheels are kind of dark, wonder if it is a reaction on
a kind of rust remover chemical, or the lightning conditions when photo
was taken.


----------



## slls

Those dark wheels are known and you see them sometimes used during the WW2 years when the factories where temporary moved behind the Ural. 
The dial is not enamel. If it was we should see a lot more dials in a good condition. Finding a type-1 with a good dial is not that rare. If some paint is of the dial, in most cases parts are gone of the edge and you don't see it when the dial if covered by the front of the case.


----------



## Karsten

slls said:


> Those dark wheels are known and you see them sometimes used during the WW2 years when the factories where temporary moved behind the Ural.
> The dial is not enamel. If it was we should see a lot more dials in a good condition. Finding a type-1 with a good dial is not that rare. If some paint is of the dial, in most cases parts are gone of the edge and you don't see it when the dial if covered by the front of the case.


Thank you for feedback slls.

So do you think the movement/dial/hands could be genuine for 3-42 vintage ?
I can accept a 1942 has been repaired with parts from the same era (WW2)


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## slls

I think this one is ok. Maybe the crown is replaced at one point. For more info, please read the attachment.


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## Straight_time

Looks like the balance assembly has been replaced, its bridge's edges are more rounded compared to those of the other bridge and it looks more like a post-war Zlatoust part to me. 

Not a major issue at all, but the price should be adequate to this... 150$ + shipping are IMHO unjustified -and unfortunately this is the trend goin' on on the Bay lately... :think:


----------



## Karsten

slls said:


> I think this one is ok. Maybe the crown is replaced at one point. For more info, please read the attachment.


Thank you vere much for this valuable information.

Unfortunately i bid too low and missed the auction, but won the action on the 2 for spare parts.


----------



## Geoff Adams

I'm chiming in here only half sure of what I am saying - I seem to remember picking up from another thread that the style of those minute/hour hands that are shown in this 1942 Type-1 were produced post-war, not 1942? As I say, I'm really not sure of my facts here, but I think this is worth checking out if you are concerned about originality... Experts will correct me if I am wrong...


----------



## Straight_time

Good point, forgot to mention that. Not 100% sure myself, but I too believe that in 1942 hands should have more likely been "early style".


----------



## ninjastyle

So I came across this watch that has a design I haven't seen too often.




























Legit? Not legit?

It doesn't really match up with what I see on this web site:

http://www.netgrafik.ch/vostok1990-navy.htm


----------



## hseldon

Can anyone give me an opinion on this Scuba Dude, please? It has the automatic movement inside. Everything appears OK to me. The only alarm I can think of is that the Vostok logo appears brighter than the part that says 'antimagnetic 21 jewels'. I'm also not great at distinguishing between the fake and authentic Vostok emblem. 
Many thanks.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SinanjuStein

ninjastyle, that first one is rather interesting. It has a picture of the Albatross class of soviet anti-sub corvettes, and also the inscription on the dial says "Albatross".

Movement is the correct 2409, but i have never seen that kind of stamping on the bridge. 


Hsledon, it appears to be correct and i can see that it's also in the correct older 960 case. Though it's in really rough shape. 

The bezel appears to be heavily damaged, and the dial is already beginning to crack (see white cracks on the dial).


----------



## hseldon

Many thanks, SinanjuStein. It does appear well worn. As I'm only interested in Cyrillic dials from the Soviet era I can live with some 'patina'. All I ask is correct parts and that it works really. Great condition for that age can mean breaking the bank!


----------



## schnurrp

ninjastyle said:


> So I came across this watch that has a design I haven't seen too often.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Legit? Not legit?
> 
> It doesn't really match up with what I see on this web site:
> 
> vostok1990-navy


That is a beauty and absolutely authentic, in my opinion, with original looking lume on dial and hands. Dial has faded some but not too bad. The writing on the bridge of the movement I've never seen on any other 2409 except a similar inscription on the "radio room" amphibian pictured below. That's a very nice and potentially rare watch.


----------



## schnurrp

hseldon said:


> Can anyone give me an opinion on this Scuba Dude, please? It has the automatic movement inside. Everything appears OK to me. The only alarm I can think of is that the Vostok logo appears brighter than the part that says 'antimagnetic 21 jewels'. I'm also not great at distinguishing between the fake and authentic Vostok emblem.
> Many thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks good to me, comrade. Needs to be cleaned up but appears to have original lume on dial and the all-nickel hands. One of the most common non-authentic repairs done to these is replacing the old movement with a new one. The correct movement should have "SU" on the automatic bridge, not "RUS".


----------



## ninjastyle

schnurrp said:


> That is a beauty and absolutely authentic, in my opinion, with original looking lume on dial and hands. Dial has faded some but not too bad. The writing on the bridge of the movement I've never seen on any other 2409 except a similar inscription on the "radio room" amphibian pictured below. That's a very nice and potentially rare watch.


Thank you both, SinanjuStein and schnurrp! Very helpful feedback.


----------



## ThePossumKing

Pretty sure I got suckered on this one, but I need a second (or third or fourth) opinion for a PayPal claim

It's a nicely running 2409 in a 020 case that even came with the antimagnetic shield, but I'm 100% sure the hands are fake replacements and 99% sure the dial has been repainted and reprinted. What say everyone?


----------



## Coug76

ThePossumKing said:


> Pretty sure I got suckered on this one, but I need a second (or third or fourth) opinion for a PayPal claim
> 
> It's a nicely running 2409 in a 020 case that even came with the antimagnetic shield, but I'm 100% sure the hands are fake replacements and 99% sure the dial has been repainted and reprinted. What say everyone?
> 
> View attachment 8220858
> View attachment 8220866
> View attachment 8220874


The hands are horrible fakes that can be bought here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262407773827

The dial printing is not consistent with any I recognize. The lume is the wrong texture for a CCCP mfg dial.

Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


----------



## schnurrp

Coug76 said:


> The hands are horrible fakes that can be bought here:
> 
> New Watch Hands for Watch VOSTOK Amphibian Lot 3 Complete Sets | eBay
> 
> The dial printing is not consistent with any I recognize. The lume is the wrong texture for a CCCP mfg dial.
> 
> Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


Yes, fake dial and hands.


----------



## schnurrp

Coug76 said:


> The hands are horrible fakes that can be bought here:
> 
> New Watch Hands for Watch VOSTOK Amphibian Lot 3 Complete Sets | eBay
> 
> The dial printing is not consistent with any I recognize. The lume is the wrong texture for a CCCP mfg dial.
> 
> Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


Yes, fake dial and hands.


----------



## svorkoetter

ThePossumKing said:


> Pretty sure I got suckered on this one, but I need a second (or third or fourth) opinion for a PayPal claim
> 
> It's a nicely running 2409 in a 020 case that even came with the antimagnetic shield, but I'm 100% sure the hands are fake replacements and 99% sure the dial has been repainted and reprinted. What say everyone?


In the last picture, the dial looks suspiciously like inkjet printed paper glued over the original dial.


----------



## ThePossumKing

Well, I messaged the seller and complained about the fake hands and repainted/reprinted dial and he said "sorry, I thought watch was just in really good shape" and promptly issued a refund without even asking that the watch be returned...guess he knew a little more about the watch than he thought...

BTW, this seller has 2 more identical watches up for bids on eBay right now


----------



## Coug76

ThePossumKing said:


> Well, I messaged the seller and complained about the fake hands and repainted/reprinted dial and he said "sorry, I thought watch was just in really good shape" and promptly issued a refund without even asking that the watch be returned...guess he knew a little more about the watch than he thought...
> 
> BTW, this seller has 2 more identical watches up for bids on eBay right now


I was wondering about that seller. Good to know.

Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


----------



## Ham2

I admit I bought this in-need-of-repair curiosity for the caseback to restore an OKEAH that likely lost it's during a repair.






However, I suspect it is a legitimate, albeit unusual, model since it is such a beast.



















As you see, it is missing a pusher and the rotating bezel is missing (you can see the remains of the brass ring that the bezel was attached to). My initial searches on this curio have not turned up any information so before I dig deeper I thought I'd probe the collective knowledge of the f10 WUSdom for answers.


----------



## haejuk

I can only point out a couple things I find odd about that 3133. First things that struck me is that it has a tachymeter on the case/bezel, but it also has one on the dial. I have never seen the case or the dial before, so I can't comment on their authenticity. I can say that since it has a 5 digit number and a silver balance wheel, this can put it anywhere from late 80s to early 90s. Though the bridge is stamped with SU, it could be just post soviet, but I can't find anything to pinpoint its age. Last thing is that the balance bridge has been replaced. There should be a circle on either side of the screw, they look like bolts or something, but I don't think they are.

I am sure other members can provide more information. It looks like a unique find. I would have a tough time deciding whether to use it for parts or get parts for it!


----------



## ninjastyle

ThePossumKing said:


> Well, I messaged the seller and complained about the fake hands and repainted/reprinted dial and he said "sorry, I thought watch was just in really good shape" and promptly issued a refund without even asking that the watch be returned...guess he knew a little more about the watch than he thought...
> 
> BTW, this seller has 2 more identical watches up for bids on eBay right now


Can you post the seller ID so we know who to avoid? Thanks!


----------



## haejuk

I just picked this up on ebay from a completely new and unknown seller. They seem to just a few soviet military things on sale and barely any feedback. I put in the minimum $14 bid and ended up winning, not even another watcher on this one. Seller claims it is serviced and 2609HA movement inside. It certainly could use some cleaning up, but I have some polywatch and cape cod cloth on the way as well. The main picture from the auction is really blurry, so I won't bother with that one. Based on what you can see here, did I get an original big zero? Here is the one good picture of it:


----------



## mroatman

haejuk said:


> I just picked this up on ebay from a completely new and unknown seller. They seem to just a few soviet military things on sale and barely any feedback. I put in the minimum $14 bid and ended up winning, not even another watcher on this one. Seller claims it is serviced and 2609HA movement inside. It certainly could use some cleaning up, but I have some polywatch and cape cod cloth on the way as well. The main picture from the auction is really blurry, so I won't bother with that one. Based on what you can see here, did I get an original big zero? Here is the one good picture of it:


Would need some more photos to confirm, but it looks alright to me.


----------



## ninjastyle

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Trying to figure out which one of these to bid for. Some of them have movement shots some do not. The third one has a very different look. Help? 

#1



















#2



















#3




























#4




























Mostly what I see online looks like #1 2 & 4 but without the date....

http://russianwatches.altervista.org/vostok_collection.htm
http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02096.jpg

http://www.ussrtime.com/cgi-bin/details.pl?id=0116


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I am not that familiar with post-soviet Vostoks but, from what you've shown (more complete set of pictures is always better) you can strike #3 off your list. Amphibian dial made for 2409 movement has been modified with date window cut out to accommodate 2414 (or 2416 going by the case back), the bezel is from who knows where, the straight second hand is wrong, and I believe the "neptune" back is incorrect.

If you like that dial, I would be looking for an 020 case amphibian with 2409 movement and ss case like the one pictured below in a catalog and in Michele's collection (Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website). It has some interest because it is an amphibian watch with a "komandirskie"-themed dial.


----------



## Karsten

ninjastyle said:


> So I came across this watch that has a design I haven't seen too often.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Legit? Not legit?


Hello ninjastyle

Love your Albatros with patina.

I belive it is legit, as mine is almost identical.
The bezels are different, but both with the "pearl" at 12:00
The rare stamp on the bridge on my Albatros is RED.
Look's as it is made with a rubber stamp, as the "ink" used easy smears away, 
so do not touch.

My Albatros says hello:


----------



## ninjastyle

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> I am not that familiar with post-soviet Vostoks but, from what you've shown (more complete set of pictures is always better) you can strike #3 off your list. Amphibian dial made for 2409 movement has been modified with date window cut out to accommodate 2414 (or 2416 going by the case back), the bezel is from who knows where, the straight second hand is wrong, and I believe the "neptune" back is incorrect.
> 
> If you like that dial, I would be looking for an 020 case amphibian with 2409 movement and ss case like the one pictured below in a catalog and in Michele's collection (Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website). It has some interest because it is an amphibian watch with a "komandirskie"-themed dial.


Thank you, very helpful!
I really do like the dial, but I also 'need' the date complication. The only ones that I've been able to find online (like in the Cuccio collection) have no date. Does that mean I should also avoid # 1 2 & 4?


----------



## SinanjuStein

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



ninjastyle said:


> Thank you, very helpful!
> I really do like the dial, but I also 'need' the date complication. The only ones that I've been able to find online (like in the Cuccio collection) have no date. Does that mean I should also avoid # 1 2 & 4?


Likely.

Number 3 is only really worth it if you need a spare Neptune caseback or to restore that unique bezel.

Usually i wouldn't offer it here and it's likely better to PM, but there is the fleamarket Amphibia i recently found and there is a good picture on the WRUW thread. (Search via my profile)

If you're interested in it make me an offer.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



ninjastyle said:


> Thank you, very helpful!
> I really do like the dial, but I also 'need' the date complication. The only ones that I've been able to find online (like in the Cuccio collection) have no date. Does that mean I should also avoid # 1 2 & 4?


It depends. I have an easy out since I only collect soviet-era. Those other dials do not look like reproductions so I think they are authentic. Hopefully someone else will chime in.


----------



## Jeroenskie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Recently I am very fascinated by the Kirovskie Type 1 'saucepan' watches. I saw this one on ebay, what do you think? I see the logos on the watch are a bit difficult to see in the photo but it is supposed to be from 1941.


----------



## Straight_time

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Sorry for the late reply.

Looks basically ok to me; on another thread I expressed a few doubts about those hands' style being used in early 40s, but there are actually so many examples around that I just might be mistaken.

The crown has nothing to do with the watch and IMHO is so ugly that it needs immediate replacement :-d but it's a minor issue. 
I'd be more worried for the traces of rust on the balance wheel's disk (is also one of the 2 screws missing? Picture leaves room for doubts). :think:

All this said, if the seller is willing to accept an offer A LOT lower than his asking price, a purchase might be worth considering; otherwise, I would not be part of the current eBay's hype which seem to value any Type-1 in the hundreds of $$$, with no reason (rarity or conditions) justifying them. <|

I've seen and bought watches far, far better than this for far, far less than that... you can do it too. ;-)


----------



## Jeroenskie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Thanks! I think I will pass on this one then and see if something better pops up in the coming months! Must say though that it is really hard to be patient once you set your mind to a specific watch :-d


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I think the prices will begin to settle down as the newly-expensive type-Is remain unsold and interest goes elsewhere. Patience.


----------



## haejuk

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I got my big zero today, but it isn't the watch that was pictured in the auction. However, at $16 shipped I am still hoping for an original but will be happy with whatever outcome. Here's the pics, what's the verdict? Thanks as always for your input.

Edit: These pics looked a lot better on my phone. I can get better pictures if needed. Just let me know if there's something that doesn't look right and I can take out my DSLR.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Looks like a very good buy if it's running well and the crystal is correct which can't be confirmed from those pictures. Even if the crystal needs to be replaced with a parts watch it still could be a good buy.


----------



## haejuk

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I'll get a picture of the front with my DSLR and post it up. I was most concerned about the dial because it was different from the auction, but I would like to know about the crystal.


----------



## haejuk

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Here's what I could get with the poor lighting in my apartment. I angled it to show the crystal a little better.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



haejuk said:


> I'll get a picture of the front with my DSLR and post it up. I was most concerned about the dial because it was different from the auction, but I would like to know about the crystal.


Should look like this one from the internet, straight vertical shoulders and flat across.


----------



## haejuk

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Mine looks very similar to that one, so that's good. Also, why don't all the big zeroes have the CCCP logo just below the hands?


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



haejuk said:


> Also, why don't all the big zeroes have the CCCP logo just below the hands?


It's pretty arbitrary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_quality_mark_of_the_USSR
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/question-about-raketa-24hr-watches-652651.html


----------



## hseldon

Is the a difference between these two Vostok 960 cases. First one seems to have a harsher slope on the corner and some detail around the crown. Is one different/correct? Many thanks.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## krogroo

I'm still not 100% if the Strela 3017 that I'm looking to buy is authentic or not, since I don't have any experience at all in buying vintage watches. Also, it seems like every Russian seller gets their watch serviced by a friend, so I can't even get a certificate or anything that will help me to take a decision :/

Anyways, I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone can take a look at this watch and see if it's authentic or not!


----------



## schnurrp

hseldon said:


> Is the a difference between these two Vostok 960 cases. First one seems to have a harsher slope on the corner and some detail around the crown. Is one different/correct? Many thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't worry about it. Some small differences like that will occur naturally in the manufacturing process over the different batches, in my opinion.


----------



## schnurrp

krogroo said:


> I'm still not 100% if the Strela 3017 that I'm looking to buy is authentic or not, since I don't have any experience at all in buying vintage watches. Also, it seems like every Russian seller gets their watch serviced by a friend, so I can't even get a certificate or anything that will help me to take a decision :/
> 
> Anyways, I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone can take a look at this watch and see if it's authentic or not!
> 
> View attachment 8328138
> View attachment 8328146
> View attachment 8328154
> View attachment 8328130


Looks like a possible to me, from what you've shown. That's the old style case and I'm not sure that dial/hands combo, which look authentic to me, is old enough to be in that case. The movement looks good although the low serial number on the balance bridge is puzzling. The case back appears to have been replaced with a newer one or polished. No glaring errors to my eye but let's see what some others have to say.


----------



## krogroo

schnurrp said:


> Looks like a possible to me, from what you've shown. That's the old style case and I'm not sure that dial/hands combo, which look authentic to me, is old enough to be in that case. The movement looks good although the low serial number on the balance bridge is puzzling. The case back appears to have been replaced with a newer one or polished. No glaring errors to my eye but let's see what some others have to say.


The hands do seem to be newer, since they're not as aged as the hour markers, but they seem to be genuine, so I don't mind them having been replaced. I've been looking at this watch for ages, and didn't notice anything that seems suspicious, but it's good to have confirmation. Thanks for your help!


----------



## Ham2

Based on the photos, alll the parts are look to be consistent with it being original


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Looks like a possible to me, from what you've shown. That's the old style case and I'm not sure that dial/hands combo, which look authentic to me, is old enough to be in that case. The movement looks good although the low serial number on the balance bridge is puzzling. The case back appears to have been replaced with a newer one or polished. No glaring errors to my eye but let's see what some others have to say.


I believe the hands and case are just highly polished. Vympel2209 does his own cleaning/polishing (but not repairs) and does a mighty fine job. My vote goes to original.

That said, I think the asking price is well over what is reasonable -- but that's for the buyer to decide.


----------



## krogroo

Ham2 said:


> Based on the photos, alll the parts are look to be consistent with it being original


Thanks!


----------



## DolleDolf

I have one in the old style case. Agree that the price point is excessive.



Sent from my KFTHWI using Tapatalk


----------



## GearHeadDreaming

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



haejuk said:


> Here's what I could get with the poor lighting in my apartment. I angled it to show the crystal a little better.
> 
> View attachment 8292354


GOAL! Nice work!


----------



## mariomart

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I picked this up today off Ebay.

I'm sure the minute and hour hand are genuine (they appear blued), the second hand looks genuine but appears to have lost most of it's tip, the dial appears genuine but has seen better days (fingers crossed I can source a better quality original from somewhere), the movement looks good and the caseback is stamped "AMFIBIA" which is the only thing I'm not certain about.

Possibly it's an early prototype or made for a different market.

All up I think I paid a reasonable low price (USD$70 including postage to Australia from Armenia) which should cover it's shortcomings.

So, is it okay or did I get a Franken?


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I think you've got it about right. Should have a domed crown and is missing a movement holder fastening to the case at 4 o'clock. Looks like a cool early back. The movement or just the balance may be a replacement. The rigid balance bridge may be too old.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mariomart said:


> I picked this up today off Ebay.
> 
> I'm sure the minute and hour hand are genuine (they appear blued), the second hand looks genuine but appears to have lost most of it's tip, the dial appears genuine but has seen better days (fingers crossed I can source a better quality original from somewhere), the movement looks good and the caseback is stamped "AMFIBIA" which is the only thing I'm not certain about.
> 
> Possibly it's an early prototype or made for a different market.
> 
> All up I think I paid a reasonable low price (USD$70 including postage to Australia from Armenia) which should cover it's shortcomings.


I thought about nabbing this one just for the case back alone. These are quite rare, but entirely authentic. In the end, I couldn't justify the price, but am glad it fell into good hands -- congratulations!


----------



## mariomart

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> I thought about nabbing this one just for the case back alone. These are quite rare, but entirely authentic. In the end, I couldn't justify the price, but am glad it fell into good hands -- congratulations!


Thank you Now I just have to work on finding a suitable replacement dial, crown and seconds hand.Cheers


----------



## 979greenwich

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi guys,
is this a genuine 2415b movement (no B logo on rotor)?
I opened my Amphibian to check the rotor screw because of poor reserve on auto winding (maybe 10 hours reserve after 10 hours of wearing), but the screw is in and the rotor is moving normally as far as I could see.
Any thoughts on that also?
Thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



979greenwich said:


> Hi guys,
> is this a genuine 2415b movement (no B logo on rotor)?
> I opened my Amphibian to check the rotor screw because of poor reserve on auto winding (maybe 10 hours reserve after 10 hours of wearing), but the screw is in and the rotor is moving normally as far as I could see.
> Any thoughts on that also?
> Thanks.


I assume this is a relatively new watch and if the rotor is swinging freely it should be winding. Perhaps the mainspring end attachment has a problem. I wouldn't worry about the lack of "B" logo if everything appears to fit. A dial picture would be nice.


----------



## ThePossumKing

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



979greenwich said:


> Hi guys,
> is this a genuine 2415b movement (no B logo on rotor)?
> Thanks.


I have a few with plain rotors as well, and one Amphibia that I got brand new had a Vostok Europe rotor...No big deal. Pretty sure that these were made on Fridays and they were out of finished rotors

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 979greenwich

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> I assume this is a relatively new watch and if the rotor is swinging freely it should be winding. Perhaps the mainspring end attachment has a problem. I wouldn't worry about the lack of "B" logo if everything appears to fit. A dial picture would be nice.


You're right. Here it is:


----------



## haejuk

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Franken or original? I don't know anything about the age of the movement, but I have never seen this caseback on this body type before. Usually I see export versions with 200m ratings with english dials and casebacks. Have I just not seen enough of these yet to be able to tell a franken from an original?


----------



## Ham2

Nothing wrong with that - domestic type 350 - early version (paddle hands and rounded crown)


----------



## schnurrp

I think backs can vary quite a bit. Here's the back currently installed on my Cyrillic type 350:









And this spartan example is found on my supposedly NOS type 119 (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/time-machine-stops-1982-brings-back-2016425.html):


----------



## DadDroid

Welp, my first post, and I'm already asking for help.  I really dig the vintage Soviet pieces, being a child of the Cold War. I found this new listing on the 'Bay, and I'm contemplating a buy. Seller says it's vintage ('70s), from a private collection, but the pricetag seems awfully low for a real vintage piece in such good shape. So... real deal or franken?

























Thanks in advance for your expertise! Looking forward to starting my obsession.


----------



## schnurrp

Reproduction hands and dial. 

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## ThePossumKing

DadDroid said:


> Welp, my first post, and I'm already asking for help.  I really dig the vintage Soviet pieces, being a child of the Cold War. I found this new listing on the 'Bay, and I'm contemplating a buy. Seller says it's vintage ('70s), from a private collection, but the pricetag seems awfully low for a real vintage piece in such good shape. So... real deal or franken?
> 
> View attachment 8433250
> 
> 
> View attachment 8433274
> 
> 
> View attachment 8433282
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your expertise! Looking forward to starting my obsession.


Reprinted dial and Chinese replacement hands, IMHO. Does this seller have a lume picture of the dial in the dark with the numbers lumed?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DadDroid

ThePossumKing said:


> Reprinted dial and Chinese replacement hands, IMHO. Does this seller have a lume picture of the dial in the dark with the numbers lumed?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, there is a lume picture, and the numbers are lumed as well as number position dots.

So, basically a complete fake, eh?

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

DadDroid said:


> Yes, there is a lume picture, and the numbers are lumed as well as number position dots.
> 
> So, basically a complete fake, eh?
> 
> Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


Not a complete fake, the case and movement appear fine and are vintage. You could always source genuine vintage hands and dial to return it to its former glory.


----------



## DadDroid

mariomart said:


> Not a complete fake, the case and movement appear fine and are vintage. You could always source genuine vintage hands and dial to return it to its former glory.


Interesting! The case seemed suspect to me because it looks so damage-free, especially the bezel. But if the case and movement are original, maybe it's worth the purchase. Or am I better off continuing my quest for all genuine? This particular case/face combination really appeals to me.


----------



## mariomart

DadDroid said:


> Interesting! The case seemed suspect to me because it looks so damage-free, especially the bezel. But if the case and movement are original, maybe it's worth the purchase. Or am I better off continuing my quest for all genuine? This particular case/face combination really appeals to me.


If it were me I would prefer to hold out and purchase a wholly original vintage watch where all the parts appear to be from the same period with original patina, but if the price is right sometimes it's fun to put together a handsome frankenstein.


----------



## ThePossumKing

DadDroid said:


> Interesting! The case seemed suspect to me because it looks so damage-free, especially the bezel. But if the case and movement are original, maybe it's worth the purchase. Or am I better off continuing my quest for all genuine? This particular case/face combination really appeals to me.


I pretty much mod every watch I get, so the only thing that would bug me is the fake/refinished dial

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



haejuk said:


> Franken or original? I don't know anything about the age of the movement, but I have never seen this caseback on this body type before. Usually I see export versions with 200m ratings with english dials and casebacks. Have I just not seen enough of these yet to be able to tell a franken from an original?
> 
> View attachment 8432730


Nobody takes issue with this bezel? Or the 12/3/6/9 green dial in a Type 350, 200m case? Am I missing something?


----------



## ThePossumKing

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Nobody takes issue with this bezel? Or the 12/3/6/9 green dial in a Type 350, 200m case? Am I missing something?


I'm like Sgt Schultz when it comes to 350s, Dashiell...'I know nothing! Nothing!'


----------



## schnurrp

DadDroid said:


> Interesting! The case seemed suspect to me because it looks so damage-free, especially the bezel. But if the case and movement are original, maybe it's worth the purchase. Or am I better off continuing my quest for all genuine? This particular case/face combination really appeals to me.


For me it would depend on how cheap it is and how good it is running, if that can be determined. I'm sure with a little patience an authentic example type 119 with that dial can be found. It's not that rare.


----------



## DadDroid

schnurrp said:


> For me it would depend on how cheap it is and how good it is running, if that can be determined. I'm sure with a little patience an authentic example type 119 with that dial can be found. It's not that rare.


My plan right now is to hold out. I would really prefer a fully vintage one. I've already seen a few others that do a better job of passing the sniff test, but just aren't as pristine. Thanks for the advice from all. I've been lurking for a couple of weeks and already gained a lot of insight.


----------



## Ham2

mroatman said:


> Nobody takes issue with this bezel? Or the 12/3/6/9 green dial in a Type 350, 200m case? Am I missing something?


I have a very similar example in a box somewhere.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Nobody takes issue with this bezel? Or the 12/3/6/9 green dial in a Type 350, 200m case? Am I missing something?


Another one of those "too many around to be fake" watches. I would not buy.

From Antonov:


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> Another one of those "too many around to be fake" watches. I would not buy.


Yeah, something rubs me the wrong way. Though my antenna could use some fine-tuning.

Thanks for the education, gentlemen.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

This looks ok to me but would like your opinions please.


----------



## Jeroenskie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I am thinking of buying a Kirovskie 'crab' and found this one online. It seems to be in decent condition and has a price I am willing to consider. However it has a red seconds hand and I have only seen gold second hands on other Kirovskie's of this type. So, is this red seconds hand a Franken or a known variety?


----------



## GearHeadDreaming

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



kev80e said:


> This looks ok to me but would like your opinions please.
> View attachment 8449002
> View attachment 8449026


Here is a good reference. I'm also intended in this old dive watch. POLJOT Amphibian 23J Vintage Russian Automatic USSR Wristwatch 02 | eBay

Not sure if that's the right case back (dolphin) bit I would certainly like to see inside.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Jeroenskie said:


> I am thinking of buying a Kirovskie 'crab' and found this one online. It seems to be in decent condition and has a price I am willing to consider. However it has a red seconds hand and I have only seen gold second hands on other Kirovskie's of this type. So, is this red seconds hand a Franken or a known variety?


Yes, this seller/collector (Roman) is known to replace and/or repaint all second hands red:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/another-impressive-collection-2504314.html

Otherwise, it seems like a nice example and all original, though it would be best to confirm the movement.


----------



## Jeroenskie

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Yes, this seller/collector (Roman) is known to replace and/or repaint all second hands red:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/another-impressive-collection-2504314.html
> 
> Otherwise, it seems like a nice example and all original, though it would be best to confirm the movement.


Thanks mrroatman! That is a bit of a shame. Although I do not dislike the red second hand it does not feel quite right.

This is the movement btw. Does it seem correct?


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Jeroenskie said:


> Thanks mrroatman! That is a bit of a shame. Although I do not dislike the red second hand it does not feel quite right.
> 
> This is the movement btw. Does it seem correct?


Yep, it's perfect -- a nice, clean movement dating the watch to 1963 or before (notice the quadrilateral 1MWF logo). Overall, it's a lovely example. The red second hand is easily replaced if it still bothers you in the flesh.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



GearHeadDreaming said:


> Here is a good reference. I'm also intended in this old dive watch. POLJOT Amphibian 23J Vintage Russian Automatic USSR Wristwatch 02 | eBay
> 
> Not sure if that's the right case back (dolphin) bit I would certainly like to see inside.


I'm going to pass on this for now due to over spending on others. Would like to add one sometime though. Thanks for your link and opinion.


----------



## willjackson

Just wondering if this is a recase. Yellow hands, silver case?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

willjackson said:


> Just wondering if this is a recase. Yellow hands, silver case?


Looks fine to me. One of my favorite Mir designs with embossed dial in four different languages.


----------



## willjackson

mroatman said:


> Looks fine to me. One of my favorite Mir designs with embossed dial in four different languages.
> 
> View attachment 8508010


Thanx D. Yours is sweet looking!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## ThePossumKing

I usually don't pay attention to these, because dress watches are for snobs like Dashiell  but this one caught my eye because it seems to be in such excellent condition. Can it possibly be legit?

Sellers pics









Thanks for any help

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mroatman

ThePossumKing said:


> I usually don't pay attention to these, because dress watches are for snobs like Dashiell  but this one caught my eye because it seems to be in such excellent condition. Can it possibly be legit?
> 
> Sellers pics
> 
> Thanks for any help
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The snob says no! Stay away!

This is a common redial, easily noted by the lack of space between "29jewels".


----------



## CierzoZgz

I did read in another thread, some days ago, that the lack of space between 29 and "jewels" is not a good signal


----------



## ThePossumKing

Thanks, gentlemen. Now I remember why I don't look at watches for the nomenklatura...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AGAPITO

I would say that deception is already on the watch dial. I even see it. 

But, on the other hand, is not it strange that the gold plating is too worn, and the dial looks new?


----------



## AGAPITO

Do you think this watch is original or not?? Thanks in advance.


----------



## stadiou

Wrong back - should ring alarm bells. Looks to be an early movement with matching dial. Not sure about the bezel


----------



## AGAPITO

Thank you. The seller offers it as a genuine one. Maybe the bezel is too red.


----------



## kev80e

I could do with your expert opinions on this please gents. 














Apparently it has a reset problem on the chronograph but hopefully that can be sorted.
Thanks for any help, I think it's correct but I am often wrong.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> I could do with your expert opinions on this please gents.
> Apparently it has a reset problem on the chronograph but hopefully that can be sorted.
> Thanks for any help, I think it's correct but I am often wrong.


Movement is entirely wrong (notice the Poljot crown beneath the balance and the English "19 Jewels" in the bridge). In my opinion, the tag and box are just a distraction to make the watch appear new.

Only buy if a replaced movement doesn't bother you and you are willing to invest an unknown sum(!) in repairing the chrono.


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Movement is entirely wrong (notice the Poljot crown beneath the balance and the English "19 Jewels" in the bridge). In my opinion, the tag and box are just a distraction to make the watch appear new.
> 
> Only buy if a replaced movement doesn't bother you and you are willing to invest an unknown sum(!) in repairing the chrono.


Thanks Dashiell. As usual I missed the obvious. The replacement movement wouldn't bother me, especially at the offer price I put in. The repair , I am lucky that I know a man who can work on these very cheaply, he is actually retired but does the odd job for a few people.
The box and tag are to me completely irrelevant to my price .


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Thanks Dashiell. As usual I missed the obvious. The replacement movement wouldn't bother me, especially at the offer price I put in. The repair , I am lucky that I know a man who can work on these very cheaply, he is actually retired but does the odd job for a few people.
> The box and tag are to me completely irrelevant to my price .


Everything externally does look good to me (case, hands, dial, etc) and in very good condition. And strangely, the serial number on the balance is quite low and could be original or at least period correct.

Even if just a collection of parts, these are some very rare parts in excellent condition that make for a beautiful result.


----------



## Arizone

Custom dial painting that is actually tastefully and well done? Interesting.
Posting in this thread rather than making a dedicated one.


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> Custom dial painting that is actually tastefully and well done? Interesting.
> Posting in this thread rather than making a dedicated one.


Wow -- I love it!


----------



## schnurrp

Arizone said:


> Custom dial painting that is actually tastefully and well done? Interesting.
> Posting in this thread rather than making a dedicated one.


Authentic Zaria/Sekonda like the one below (Sekonda Soviet Watch Vintage RARE Leather Strap | eBay). Unusual "tube" lugs and quite large, 40mm+. Picture....beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Picture....beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.


Both the dial painting and this comment remind me of Eurovision 2014 b-)


__
https://soundcloud.com/jean-michel-31%2Fconchita-wurst-rise-like-a-phoenix-live-eurovision


----------



## Arizone

Swiss made Vostok?


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> Swiss made Vostok?


Ha! Definitely a repainted dial, in my opinion. The "lightning bolt" Vostok was only available with a silk sunburst dial, to my knowledge:

https://picasaweb.google.com/m/zoom...31010258&viewportWidth=320&viewportHeight=416
https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5521990269912319074&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## schnurrp

Arizone said:


> Swiss made Vostok?


I held out some hope for this one but in the end I decided the dial at least had had its identification re-painted and probably the whole dial. I've never seen one pictured in a catalog. Interesting that both Vostok and Poljot made versions of the thunderbolt.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Interesting that both Vostok and Poljot made versions of the thunderbolt.


Slava, too:

RARE Vintage USSR Soviet Watch Slava Transistor Caliber 2937 2MCHZ Quartz | eBay

Though I'm not sure I'm familiar with the Poljot version?


----------



## AGAPITO

What do you think about this watch?? It seems to be a curious franken. Would you buy this watch?


----------



## pamaro

Hi experts! I bought this amphibia yesterday on a fleamarket. 

There are few strange things. I have never seen before a caseback like this and a "scuba dude" only dial.

Is this a post udssr franken, or an udssr export watch?


----------



## schnurrp

18 jewel "thunderbolt" Vostok:

Authentic dial and hands, I believe. The case may have been gold and harvested for its value and chrome plated case substituted or it could be authentic since this type of gold/chrome mixture was common on soviet watches. The crown looks too big to me so it may be a replacement. Should have a Cyrillic back with 2209 designation, perhaps.

I would buy it for the right low price.


----------



## schnurrp

pamaro said:


> Hi experts! I bought this amphibia yesterday on a fleamarket.
> 
> There are few strange things. I have never seen before a caseback like this and a "scuba dude" only dial.
> 
> Is this a post udssr franken, or an udssr export watch?


What jumps out right away and causes doubts for the whole watch is the black hands that are only found on white or light dialed amphibians.

There's a good chance the case/bezel/crown/back go together but not with that dial. Movement should be Vostok 2416b automatic according to the back.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> What do you think about this watch?? It seems to be a curious franken. Would you buy this watch?





schnurrp said:


> 18 jewel "thunderbolt" Vostok:
> Authentic dial and hands, I believe. The case may have been gold and harvested for its value and chrome plated case substituted or it could be authentic since this type of gold/chrome mixture was common on soviet watches. The crown looks too big to me so it may be a replacement. Should have a Cyrillic back with 2209 designation, perhaps.
> I would buy it for the right low price.


Nothing franken about this watch. The "lightning bolt" design was produced in both gold-plated and chromed cases. Here are a pair of mine, along with their catalog entries.

There was also an even more interesting British export variant of this watch, as well as a similar dial produced for the Slava Transistor.


----------



## pamaro

schnurrp said:


> What jumps out right away and causes doubts for the whole watch is the black hands that are only found on white or light dialed amphibians.
> 
> There's a good chance the case/bezel/crown/back go together but not with that dial. Movement should be Vostok 2416b automatic according to the back.


Thanks. Anyway, i love this watch!

What kind of amphibia use this dial usually?


----------



## tikkathree

This is my yesterday arrival. Step 1 is that it's run overnight and no problems. I can start checking accuracy today. Step 2 is back off to see what's inside and see what you guys think. Is there a way of dating the case and the movement please?.









Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


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## AGAPITO

Thank you. I thought the watch was a bit strange...boctok dial, chistopol logo in the movement and 1974 written in the caseback. It's not curious?


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you. I thought the watch was a bit strange...boctok dial, chistopol logo in the movement and 1974 written in the caseback. It's not curious?


Aha, that is a very good point. I was only paying attention to the dial and case. The movement is probably replaced. I didn't see the case back, so I didn't know it said 1974 - but anyway, the Chistopol "ЧЧ3" logo was discontinued around 1964, I believe. It's still the same caliber (18-jewel 2209), so it wouldn't bother me personally as long as it was working well.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you. I thought the watch was a bit strange...boctok dial, chistopol logo in the movement and 1974 written in the caseback. It's not curious?


Aha, that is a very good point. I was only paying attention to the dial and case. The movement is probably replaced, or maybe just the main bridge. I didn't see the case back, so I didn't know it said 1974 - but anyway, the Chistopol "ЧЧ3" logo was discontinued around 1964, I believe. It's still the same caliber (18-jewel 2209), so it wouldn't bother me personally as long as it was working well.


----------



## AGAPITO

Thank you very much Schnurrp and Mroatman for your time. You are great. What you say confirms me that to buy a Soviet vintage watch can be a complicated task.

In this case, I prefer to be cautious and finally, do not buy the watch, because although I can be wrong, I think that under these conditions, this watch should be qualified as a non-genuine watch.


I think the watch will probably work well, and it is nice, but it seems clear that different parts of it from different times (pre-1964 and post-1964) have been manipulated to create the watch. So I choose to agree with Scurrpp. I think this watch might have some value, but not the original Soviet. And maybe it could end up in a malfunction. I´ll try another time. Thank you again.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Slava, too:
> 
> RARE Vintage USSR Soviet Watch Slava Transistor Caliber 2937 2MCHZ Quartz | eBay
> 
> Though I'm not sure I'm familiar with the Poljot version?


Not identical but pretty close:


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Not identical but pretty close:


Ah, of course!

Much harder to find, in my experience, and demanding a far higher price. I still haven't found one in decent condition at a price I'm willing to pay.


----------



## Arizone

pamaro said:


> Hi experts! I bought this amphibia yesterday on a fleamarket.
> 
> There are few strange things. I have never seen before a caseback like this and a "scuba dude" only dial.
> 
> Is this a post udssr franken, or an udssr export watch?


It's certainly an odd one. It's definitely an export, as I'm sure I have seen that caseback before, and the English movement you've shown matches, but I of course haven't seen that exact dial before. It reminds me of this odd watch that Michele has. What this watch has in common with yours is an English caseback, antimagnetic, automatic, black hands, and of course a scuba dude. Aside from being weird, the only thing I see seemingly _wrong _with your watch is that the dial looks relumed, everything else could have been seemingly be done by the factory but impossible to confirm. If your watch lacked lume on the dial like this watch below, maybe somebody had it done later. Who knows. Enjoy it, it's very cool with the unique dude image.


----------



## pamaro

Thanks. But i dont think my watch was relumed, because of one detail(look 12H mark):


I am pretty sure the dial/scuba dude isnt a reprint.


----------



## willjackson

Silver hands, gold case on this Cornavin. Replaced hands or did they all come this way?

Thanks in advance?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## mroatman

willjackson said:


> Silver hands, gold case on this Cornavin. Replaced hands or did they all come this way?
> Thanks in advance


Possible to zoom out a bit?


----------



## willjackson

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## mroatman

willjackson said:


> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


A Cornavin ZIM! Never seen one before. Cool stuff.

I'm not so sure about those hands. They look more Vostok to me. But that pop-tart looks phenomenal


----------



## mroatman

mroatman said:


> A Cornavin ZIM! Never seen one before. Cool stuff.
> 
> I'm not so sure about those hands. They look more Vostok to me. But that pop-tart looks phenomenal


On second thought, these ZIM hands are pretty similar -- though they are gold to match the indices/case:









Hope someone else can be more helpful.


----------



## willjackson

mroatman said:


> A Cornavin ZIM! Never seen one before. Cool stuff.
> 
> I'm not so sure about those hands. They look more Vostok to me. But that pop-tart looks phenomenal


It has a Zim 2602 movement and raspberry filling, thanks for noticing!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## willjackson

One more...









How does this one look? Second hand correct?

Thanx D!


----------



## mroatman

willjackson said:


> Second hand correct?


No -- should be gilt and run all the way to the minute track. An easy fix, if you like it enough.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5199202915197503714&oid=113098239036073221216


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## AGAPITO

Hi. The question is about the dial of this nice watch. I guess other parts of the watch are legit. What do you think? It is a genuine dial or a re-dial a franken dial?? Thanks in advance.


----------



## w4rmachine

So I saw this, and while I really like it, I'm having a bit of a time authenticating it. Was this case really ever used? And if not, does anybody have any idea where it did come from?
Thanks to all.


----------



## SinanjuStein

w4rmachine said:


> So I saw this, and while I really like it, I'm having a bit of a time authenticating it. Was this case really ever used? And if not, does anybody have any idea where it did come from?
> Thanks to all.


It's correct, but i don't recall the exact date they were produced (2003~2010?). Seller is definitely recommended, also occasionally posts here.

The case is indeed correct and should have a lightly curved acrylic crystal (akin to a Komandirskie) and a 2416B movement.



AGAPITO said:


> Hi. The question is about the dial of this nice watch. I guess other parts of the watch are legit. What do you think? It is a genuine dial or a re-dial a franken dial?? Thanks in advance.


Seems alright to me, the seconds hand is a little suspicious but it looks nice overall.

The damage on the dial is very likely dirt in some places, but cleaning it up is at you own risk.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Hi. The question is about the dial of this nice watch. I guess other parts of the watch are legit. What do you think? It is a genuine dial or a re-dial a franken dial?? Thanks in advance.


100% original. Here's mine (with replacement crown):


----------



## w4rmachine

SinanjuStein said:


> It's correct, but i don't recall the exact date they were produced (2003~2010?). Seller is definitely recommended, also occasionally posts here.
> 
> The case is indeed correct and should have a lightly curved acrylic crystal (akin to a Komandirskie) and a 2416B movement.


Thank you! ...and yeah, I know Amil is a member. Hope I didn't cause any offense by questioning his merchandise! Sorry Amil!


----------



## mroatman

SinanjuStein said:


> Seller is definitely recommended, also occasionally posts here.


Well, I don't know about "definitely"....

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/has-anyone-purchased-ebay-seller-asap31-1089985-3.html#post24062705

But generally, yes, hard to match Amil's selection.


----------



## mariomart

I'm forever on the lookout for genuine vintage parts to use to restore other watches to correctness (is that even the correct context? lol)

I came across this one and after submitting a Best Offer I now find myself to be its new owner 

So, I think the dial is genuine (shows a lovely crackled patina) and possibly off a 350 or 119 diver. The hands appear to be blued sword hands, so probably from a 350. The crown appears to be 350. I can't really tell whether the crystal is domed but the bezel is likely off a 119. The caseback appears to be early 350. Movement appears to be genuine 2209, although I can't see a SU signature on the watch train bridge. Movement holder appears to be early 350.

It's a pity the swing lugs are missing (anyone got a spare pair available?).

So, are my assumptions correct? Did I do alright for $40?


----------



## AGAPITO

Hello again. I'm sorry I only have this pictures. No doubt it seems a nice luch watch, but do you think the dial, hands...are genuine?


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Hello again. I'm sorry I only have this pictures. No doubt it seems a nice luch watch, but do you think the dial, hands...are genuine?


Not genuine, in my opinion; the texture on the dial has been repainted, and the hand color should match the case material (in this case, gold).

It looked like one of these originally:


----------



## maxlevett

supposedly a "rare military dial" no sign of lettering around bottom edge of dial and unusual hour & minute hands?


----------



## mroatman

maxlevett said:


> supposedly a "rare military dial" no sign of lettering around bottom edge of dial and unusual hour & minute hands?


Exactly what branch of the military, I have to wonder...


----------



## maxlevett

mroatman said:


> Exactly what branch of the military, I have to wonder...


Going on the remnants of lots of lume and coming from Lithuania, maybe a rare military that only operates after dark.
Or just a patched up franken.


----------



## mroatman

maxlevett said:


> Going on the remnants of lots of lume and coming from Lithuania, maybe a rare military that only operates after dark.
> Or just a patched up franken.


Well, I don't think it's good practice to comment on things about which you know nothing, so I'll refrain from any firm statements here. I can say that I've never seen a Volna with a black dial or full lumed numbers like that. The hands are also unknown to me. And the "rare military dial" description is particularly suspicious, especially when said claim was made by an eager seller.

It's not out of the realm of possibility, though I tend to think you nailed it with your second theory.

The 1970 catalog shows three Vostoks with 2809 movements and black dials. Two are even lumed. (I've only seen one of these for sale, ever, so they're definitely rare.)


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Well, I don't think it's good practice to comment on things about which you know nothing, so I'll refrain from any firm statements here. I can say that I've never seen a Volna with a black dial or full lumed numbers like that. The hands are also unknown to me. And the "rare military dial" description is particularly suspicious, especially when said claim was made by an eager seller.
> 
> It's not out of the realm of possibility, though I tend to think you nailed it with your second theory.
> 
> The 1970 catalog shows three Vostoks with 2809 movements and black dials. Two are even lumed. (I've only seen one of these for sale, ever, so they're definitely rare.)
> 
> View attachment 8847450
> 
> 
> View attachment 8847458
> 
> 
> View attachment 8847466


A fairly well known black dial 2809 that comes up every other year or so that's been described as "military" which, in Russian, is a synonym for "black", evidently.

Antonov's (wrong case IMHO):









One that used to belong to Russ Cook that I missed out on:









Subject watch has a lot wrong with it starting with a second party hand numbered dial, in my opinion.


----------



## kakefe

First time i saw this case .. and amphibia with this case as well
anybody can school me about it ?










Follow me on Instagram... @watchcolony


----------



## AGAPITO

This Vostok 2209 watch has an aspect that seems right to me. Doubt about the hands (I never saw that hands in a vostok 2209 before). If possible, I would like a better opinion. What do you think the watch? Thank you very much in advance.


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> This Vostok 2209 watch has an aspect that seems right to me. Doubt about the hands (I never saw that hands in a vostok 2209 before). If possible, I would like a better opinion. What do you think the watch? Thank you very much in advance.
> 
> View attachment 8863082
> 
> 
> View attachment 8863090
> 
> 
> View attachment 8863098
> 
> 
> View attachment 8863114


Good one. I forgot to bid or it would have been mine.


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> This Vostok 2209 watch has an aspect that seems right to me. Doubt about the hands (I never saw that hands in a vostok 2209 before). If possible, I would like a better opinion. What do you think the watch? Thank you very much in advance.
> 
> View attachment 8863082
> 
> 
> View attachment 8863090
> 
> 
> View attachment 8863098
> 
> 
> View attachment 8863114


Good one. I forgot to bid or it would have been mine.


----------



## elsoldemayo

AGAPITO said:


> This Vostok 2209 watch has an aspect that seems right to me. Doubt about the hands (I never saw that hands in a vostok 2209 before). If possible, I would like a better opinion. What do you think the watch? Thank you very much in advance.


Looks fine, hands and all - 1977 Catalog.


----------



## jetcash

Saw this Copernicus on eBay. Did they ever have Arabic numbers? What's up with the red second hand?









Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

jetcash said:


> Saw this Copernicus on eBay. Did they ever have Arabic numbers? What's up with the red second hand?
> Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


The hands are incorrect; this is not a Copernicus.

From the 1989 Catalog:









But yes, there was a Copernicus variation with Arabic numbers. From the same catalog:


----------



## jetcash

Where do you think the hands came from? That hour indicator is tiny!

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

jetcash said:


> Where do you think the hands came from? That hour indicator is tiny!


The hands are definitely from a Copernicus. The hour hand only appears small because of the watch in question is quite a bit larger than the Copernicus. It's an illusion.


----------



## AGAPITO

For if I I can be helpful, although I am not an expert, I have not seen any matching vostok with that image dial in any catalog. I have located Vostok watches with dials identical to yours. First one is a franken. I think the boxes are mismatched. It looks like a Komandirskie of the Russian era (post-90). It seems to me a dangerous time to buy a Russian watch. The bezel also raises doubts me, but may have been replaced. If this that I'm commenting is right, I would not buy that watch as it could have been manipulated and have parts from other watches. I think this is the worst thing that can happen to a buyer.


----------



## Jeroenskie

What do you guys think of this Sputnik? And what would you say is a fair price for a sputnik in this condition?

Thanks!


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> What do you guys think of this Sputnik? And what would you say is a fair price for a sputnik in this condition?
> 
> Thanks!


Only the crown is replaced. It is still a very nice example and I would value it at maybe $100. There are those who say this Sputnik in a gold case is franken, but I disagree.

Be careful, vintage-house's auctions tend to get carried away (are you bidding on Aukro?), so just make sure you don't bid more than you'd like to pay in the final moments.

Good luck!


----------



## elsoldemayo

Agree with Dashiell's appraisal, all good except the crown. The white dials seemed to suffer more so IMO, on ebay, that watch is going to go for about $130. Another $20 if the crown was correct.


----------



## mariomart

Hello again 

I bought this last night off Ebay, I loved the lumed dial, and was hoping for a little information as to it's authenticity. It might be just me but the case appears to be stainless steel. Any catalogue shots would be appreciated.

Thank you.


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> Hello again
> I bought this last night off Ebay, I loved the lumed dial, and was hoping for a little information as to it's authenticity. It might be just me but the case appears to be stainless steel. Any catalogue shots would be appreciated.
> Thank you.


Unfortunately a franken. The case is incorrect, the hands are not lumed, and the movement is too early. It does look nice, though.

Here is mine and the catalog entry.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5720048482844383506&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Unfortunately a franken. The case is incorrect, the hands are not lumed, and the movement is too early. It does look nice, though.


Thanks mroatman

Looks like I'll be hitting Etsy for a set of hands. Luckily I already have the correct case and crystal in my parts bin as well as a later 2209 so I should be able to bring it back to originality.

Any idea what the original caseback looked like?

Cheers


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> Thanks mroatman
> Looks like I'll be hitting Etsy for a set of hands. Luckily I already have the correct case and crystal in my parts bin as well as a later 2209 so I should be able to bring it back to originality.
> Any idea what the original caseback looked like?
> Cheers


Here's a shot of the front and the back. Not a very common case, unfortunately. The hand set is also a bit unusual, especially if you want that rare(ish) nickel-plated arrow-tipped second hand.

















As I look through my parts stash, you're in luck. I have an entire copy of this watch, disassembled (but notice the missing jewel on the balance). If you need some help with your restoration, you might be able to convince me to give up a project of my own. Shoot me an email.


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Here's a shot of the front and the back. Not a very common case, unfortunately. The hand set is also a bit unusual, especially if you want that rare(ish) nickel-plated arrow-tipped second hand.
> As I look through my parts stash, you're in luck. I have an entire copy of this watch, disassembled (but notice the missing jewel on the balance). If you need some help with your restoration, you might be able to convince me to give up a project of my own. Shoot me an email.


You're right about the case, the ones I have are similar but lacking the chamfered edges. I'll send you an email.

Cheers


----------



## redwrwf

Hi everyone, looking to buy a Raketa World Time. Came across these two watches (Pics are of two different watches) 













Neither have a picture of the movement but both are listed as having a "2628 H with 19 Jewels". Can anyone tell me if either of these are legit, and if these are decent watches?


----------



## mroatman

redwrwf said:


> Hi everyone, looking to buy a Raketa World Time. Came across these two watches (Pics are of two different watches)
> 
> Neither have a picture of the movement but both are listed as having a "2628 H with 19 Jewels". Can anyone tell me if either of these are legit, and if these are decent watches?


Second one seems to have a replaced second hand. First one looks good to me.

They're definitely decent watches if running strong (can't think of any Soviet watches that aren't "decent", actually), but any watches of this age may require servicing and/or fine-tuning.


----------



## schnurrp

My Sekonda version. Notice back which appears to simulate a two piece construction, has the Sekonda statement: "FULLY JEWELLED LEVER MOVEMENT" found in the catalogs.

View attachment 6.jpg


----------



## mariomart

Unfortunately no movement pics but I just picked up this trio on Etsy for a good price (also came with 2 Komandirskie Juniors which will donate their movements to my other projects). I think they look okay and should come up well after a little TLC. I especially like the Komandirskie 3aka3 :-!

Any thoughts?


----------



## mariomart

No longer relevant


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> My Sekonda version. Notice back which appears to simulate a two piece construction, has the Sekonda statement: "FULLY JEWELLED LEVER MOVEMENT" found in the catalogs.


Ah yes, that's a nice one. My research indicates there were two of these models very closely related: a "Vostok" Sekonda with features and styling that mimic the Vostok variant exactly, and a _Sekonda_ Sekonda that is an export model all its own. Notice how your model has a larger arrow on the second hand, slightly different printing on the dial, a different case back design (as you already mentioned), and other minor changes.









I have been looking for that Sekonda Sekonda with the large arrow second hand for some time, but the last one I saw sold for silly money. Cool watch.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Ah yes, that's a nice one. My research indicates there were two of these models very closely related: a "Vostok" Sekonda with features and styling that mimic the Vostok variant exactly, and a _Sekonda_ Sekonda that is an export model all its own. Notice how your model has a larger arrow on the second hand, slightly different printing on the dial, a different case back design (as you already mentioned), and other minor changes.
> 
> View attachment 9064114
> 
> 
> I have been looking for that Sekonda Sekonda with the large arrow second hand for some time, but the last one I saw sold for silly money. Cool watch.


I had noticed the second hand but not that it was different from other examples like yours with the "fletched" arrow second hand. Hour and minute hands are a bit different too in the way the lume is placed, no? I had not noticed the printing differences.

Oh, also in case you didn't know, the tip of the second hand extends on 5mm or so beyond the arrow gently curving down. It's distorted a bit in the picture below by the crystal.









Not so expensive a couple years ago:


----------



## WillAC

Hi I was looking at four Russian USSR watches on Etsy and I need some guidance to see if they are authentic or not. Any help would be appreciated. I am pretty new to the whole watch thing and still need some help when it comes to authenticating.

1
https://www.etsy.com/listing/264143777/ultra-rare-original-vintage-soviet-watch?ref=cat_gallery_8

2
https://www.etsy.com/listing/275828680/mens-wrist-watches-black-military-watch?ref=cat_gallery_7

3
https://www.etsy.com/listing/276083870/mechanical-ussr-watch-pobedavictory?ref=cat_gallery_3

4
https://www.etsy.com/listing/270305156/very-rare-original-vintage-soviet-watch?ref=cat_gallery_2

Thanks for your help!


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I had noticed the second hand but not that it was different from other examples like yours with the "fletched" arrow second hand. Hour and minute hands are a bit different too in the way the lume is placed, no? I had not noticed the printing differences.


Yes, an entirely different hand set, I believe. Yours are, in general, "pointier" than mine.



schnurrp said:


> Oh, also in case you didn't know, the tip of the second hand extends on 5mm or so beyond the arrow gently curving down. It's distorted a bit in the picture below by the crystal.


I didn't realize this -- I love it! Wanting this model even more now.


----------



## mroatman

WillAC said:


> Hi I was looking at four Russian USSR watches on Etsy and I need some guidance to see if they are authentic or not. Any help would be appreciated. I am pretty new to the whole watch thing and still need some help when it comes to authenticating.
> 1https://www.etsy.com/listing/264143777/ultra-rare-original-vintage-soviet-watch?ref=cat_gallery_8
> 2https://www.etsy.com/listing/275828680/mens-wrist-watches-black-military-watch?ref=cat_gallery_7
> 3https://www.etsy.com/listing/276083870/mechanical-ussr-watch-pobedavictory?ref=cat_gallery_3
> 4https://www.etsy.com/listing/270305156/very-rare-original-vintage-soviet-watch?ref=cat_gallery_2
> Thanks for your help!


To be clear, "Russian" and "USSR" are quite different things.

Numbers 1, 3, and 4 are totally fake.

Number 2 looks okay to me, but this is a modern watch, not from the former USSR (if that matters to you). It is an "Aviator" from the 2000s. Here is a similar model from the 2002 catalog:


----------



## WillAC

Thanks. Would you recommend any Etsy sellers for watches or should I look else where.


----------



## WillAC

Need assistance authenticating this Citizen watch.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Citiz...%3A966ee2b01560a6a5f36cc008ffee6ae0%7Ciid%3A1

And if anyone is familiar with the model , Let me know if it's quality.


----------



## mariomart

WillAC said:


> Thanks. Would you recommend any Etsy sellers for watches or should I look else where.


Everyone has a different opinion when dealing with Etsy sellers.

I have successfully bought from the following sellers and all my packages have been delivered in good time to Australia.

Mike from WatchPartsStore https://www.etsy.com/au/shop/WatchPartsStore whom I have purchased mainly spare parts watches and movements. He communicates very well and sometimes throws in extra bits 

Vladimir from 1917BackInUSSR1991 https://www.etsy.com/au/shop/1917BackInUSSR1991 who is very honest and easy to communicate with.

Pavel from MyBootSale https://www.etsy.com/au/shop/MyBootSale also communicates well.

Hope this helps.

Cheers


----------



## mroatman

WillAC said:


> Need assistance authenticating this Citizen watch.
> Vintage Citizen Quartz Crystron Blue Face Day Date Mens Watch Working | eBay
> And if anyone is familiar with the model , Let me know if it's quality.


You're in the Ruskie section, comrade.

Might want to ask over in /f21: Seiko & Citizen


----------



## AGAPITO

Please, can you tell me your opinion about this Luch 2209? At this point, I doubt everything. In particular, I doubt the red second hand and crown, but when I look closely at the watch, seems to be a right crown. i think the movement is legit. Thanks in advance.


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> Please, can you tell me your opinion about this Luch 2209? At this point, I doubt everything. In particular, I doubt the red second hand and crown, but when I look closely at the watch, seems to be a right crown. i think the movement is legit. Thanks in advance.
> 
> View attachment 9075162
> 
> 
> View attachment 9075170
> 
> 
> View attachment 9075178


 Crown may be a little large and second hand a little long but it has possibilities.

From '72 catalog:


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Please, can you tell me your opinion about this Luch 2209? At this point, I doubt everything. In particular, I doubt the red second hand and crown, but when I look closely at the watch, seems to be a right crown. i think the movement is legit. Thanks in advance.


I agree with schnurrp -- the only questions are the second hand and the crown. Case, case-back, and movement are all correct, in my opinion.

Two more examples to compare against, although I'm sure the crown on my watch is replaced.

















Looks like the red second hand may be authentic.


----------



## WillAC

Need help authenticating this watch.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282134638402

Tell me what you think.


----------



## schnurrp

WillAC said:


> Need help authenticating this watch.
> 
> Rare Vintage Watch USSR VIMPEL Poljot De Luxe 1 MChZ 23 jewels Ultra-Slim 1960's
> 
> Tell me what you think.


Bad re-paint. Stay away.


----------



## AGAPITO

This is a good choice. I think the crown is replaced, but what do you think about this pocket watch?


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> This is a good choice. I think the crown is replaced, but what do you think about this pocket watch?


Yes, excellent choice! I think the crown may be original; at least, it's close.

I wrote about this watch here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/salut-6-pocket-watch-2345034.html

Good luck!


----------



## maxlevett

maxlevett said:


> supposedly a "rare military dial" no sign of lettering around bottom edge of dial and unusual hour & minute hands?
> View attachment 8847082


This one currently on ebay 







temped but nah, all ready got one


----------



## schnurrp

maxlevett said:


> This one currently on ebay
> View attachment 9122746
> 
> temped but nah, all ready got one


I've never seen one like that before but a few details are tantalizing:

Case looks right
Crown looks right
Second hand looks right
Base of hour and minute hands are large in diameter like other 2809s but hands are unfamiliar.
Dial lume appears hand-applied but in an incomplete fashion on the four numerals as if applied after the fact.

Have to say not authentic but I'm not sure. I might buy at the right price but it would have to be cheap.


----------



## schnurrp

This authentic one has similar hands. I would guess one of these with a bad dial had another similar black dial, with lume added, substituted.


----------



## maxlevett

schnurrp said:


> I've never seen one like that before but a few details are tantalizing:
> 
> Case looks right
> Crown looks right
> Second hand looks right
> Base of hour and minute hands are large in diameter like other 2809s but hands are unfamiliar.
> Dial lume appears hand-applied but in an incomplete fashion on the four numerals as if applied after the fact.
> 
> Have to say not authentic but I'm not sure. I might buy at the right price but it would have to be cheap.


The dial & hands are exactly the same as the gold case one I posted on page 208 of this thread 4 weeks ago.







When I posted the gold case photo, I said no sign of lettering at bottom of dial, but under magnifying class it is there, right at the very edge.
I have worn this nearly every day for last month. Easy to read and works perfect.


----------



## schnurrp

maxlevett said:


> The dial & hands are exactly the same as the gold case one I posted on page 208 of this thread 4 weeks ago.
> View attachment 9126706
> 
> When I posted the gold case photo, I said no sign of lettering at bottom of dial, but under magnifying class it is there, right at the very edge.
> I have worn this nearly every day for last month. Easy to read and works perfect.


Well, if there are two such examples that changes things a bit. If that's an authentic dial, I'm disappointed in Vostok. Looks sloppy.


----------



## AGAPITO

mroatman said:


> Yes, excellent choice! I think the crown may be original; at least, it's close.
> 
> I wrote about this watch here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/salut-6-pocket-watch-2345034.html
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you, but are you sure? The geneva stripes seems to be a bit off in the picture of the movement....what would you say?


----------



## mroatman

maxlevett said:


> This one currently on ebay
> View attachment 9122746
> 
> temped but nah, all ready got one


Aaaaaaaaaaand it's sold.

Edit: Here's a third example, also with gold-plated case: http://forum.watch.ru/showpost.php?p=1825466&postcount=526. I don't know about "military", but I do think these are original watches with unique hands not found on any other Chistopol watch (to my knowledge).


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you, but are you sure? The geneva stripes seems to be a bit off in the picture of the movement....what would you say?


Yes, it looks fine to me. Are you talking about the balance? I think this is just the lighting conditions of the photo. I would maybe ask for a few more movement shots to be sure the decoration matches that on the other bridges. But my gut says it's fine.


----------



## maxlevett

mroatman said:


> Aaaaaaaaaaand it's sold.
> 
> Edit: Here's a third example, also with gold-plated case: Часовой форум Watch.ru - Показать сообщение отдельно - Восток-Волна прецизионные: миф или реальность?. I don't know about "military", but I do think these are original watches with unique hands not found on any other Chistopol watch (to my knowledge).


It was still on ebay when I woke up and was feeling greedy. Anyhoo the dial is better than mine.

A fourth example here at post #642
ВОСТОК Прецизионные 2809 - Страница 65 - Часовой форум Watch.ru


----------



## AGAPITO

mroatman said:


> Yes, it looks fine to me. Are you talking about the balance? I think this is just the lighting conditions of the photo. I would maybe ask for a few more movement shots to be sure the decoration matches that on the other bridges. But my gut says it's fine.


You're right and probably would have to see other images. And I thought about the effect of light. But look good on the balance and bridges. This is the image taken from the same angle of a Salut I consider correct.








This is the image of Salut commenting you, which I appreciate some inconsistencies.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> You're right and probably would have to see other images. And I thought about the effect of light. But look good on the balance and bridges. This is the image taken from the same angle of a Salut I consider correct.
> This is the image of Salut commenting you, which I appreciate some inconsistencies.


I don't know, comrade. Hopefully someone else can say for sure.


----------



## redwrwf

I came into possession of a Raketa Big Zero. However, it has thin hands. Does this mean it a Ukrainian fake? Pics Below


----------



## mroatman

redwrwf said:


> I came into possession of a Raketa Big Zero. However, it has thin hands. Does this mean it a Ukrainian fake? Pics Below


I'm not sure how Ukraine got brought into this, but yes, the hands have been replaced and are not original. That said, I don't see anything fake on this watch.


----------



## jetcash

mroatman said:


> I'm not sure how Ukraine got brought into this, but yes, the hands have been replaced and are not original. That said, I don't see anything fake on this watch.


I have one with the same replaced hands. Weird.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

jetcash said:


> I have one with the same replaced hands. Weird.


A simple explanation is that the original Raketa Big Zero hands were unique to this watch and not found on any other model, to my knowledge. So if they were lost over time or if your watch is constructed from parts, the original hands would be difficult to source.

The thin hands shown above, however, are extremely common and found on many different Raketa models produced over many, many years. Therefore, they'd be easy to source in the event the thicker hands went missing.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## redwrwf

Hmm, I really like the look of the thicker hands. Perhaps I'll try and find some and change them out some day


----------



## mroatman

redwrwf said:


> Hmm, I really like the look of the thicker hands. Perhaps I'll try and find some and change them out some day


I would contact Mike at "WatchPartsStore" and he can likely help you.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/WatchPartsStore


----------



## AGAPITO

I have an important question on this watch. I think your comments would serve me to learn a little more. It is a curious watch, I think even for Raketa factory. What do you think? It is authentic or franken? Thank you in advance.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> I have an important question on this watch. I think your comments would serve me to learn a little more. It is a curious watch, I think even for Raketa factory. What do you think? It is authentic or franken? Thank you in advance.


It is correct. This model is often called the Raketa "Domino" or "Telephone".

Here's mine:


----------



## AGAPITO

mroatman said:


> It is correct. This model is often called the Raketa "Domino" or "Telephone".
> 
> Here's mine:
> 
> View attachment 9145394


Thank you very much.

If I had any doubt, now no longer. Raketa designs in watches are endless ...... Please can you tell me what is the size of this watch?? Maybe 36 mm ??


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> If I had any doubt, now no longer. Raketa designs in watches are endless ...... Please can you tell me what is the size of this watch?? Maybe 36 mm ??


No more than 34-35mm, if I remember correctly. Maybe someone else has calipers and can give you an exact number. If not, I can follow up later tonight.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> If I had any doubt, now no longer. Raketa designs in watches are endless ...... Please can you tell me what is the size of this watch?? Maybe 36 mm ??


I stand corrected. The exact diameter of the case is 36.6mm. I'm surprised! The bezel is rather thick so the watch wears smaller.


----------



## willjackson

Hello Comrades.

Picked up this Boctok to play with a 2416A and fell into like with it?!

But know nothing about Troika's. Has this been recased? Troika not listed on dial...

















Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## jetcash

Raketa quartz big zero diver. Wait, what? Bad pics, too.


















- translated by Babelfish


----------



## mroatman

Looks alright to me.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Men-s-Rare-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Men`s Soviet USSR Russian watch Raketa ZERO Quartz DIVER ORIGINAL | eBay
Men`s Soviet (USSR) Russian watch Raketa ZERO Quartz DIVER Is serviced | eBay


----------



## Arizone

willjackson said:


> Hello Comrades.
> 
> Picked up this Boctok to play with a 2416A and fell into like with it?!
> 
> But know nothing about Troika's. Has this been recased? Troika not listed on dial...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


With the fancy display back you're probably in good shape.


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> As I look through my parts stash, you're in luck. I have an entire copy of this watch, disassembled (but notice the missing jewel on the balance). If you need some help with your restoration, you might be able to convince me to give up a project of my own. Shoot me an email.
> View attachment 8918346
> 
> View attachment 8918378


Good news, the parts from Dashiell arrived today (It seems that Canada Post delivery time to Australia sits somewhere between Ukraine/Moldova/Belarus and Russia Post to Australia, lol) :-! Thanks Dashiell |>

So, here it is restored to it's former glory and originality. :-d Although it is a smaller watch, I still love it. Especially the dial.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hi everyone, 

I stumbled upon this Sekonda Strela for a really low price and I was wondering what you guys think. The pictures that the seller posted are pretty bad but hopefully some of you will be able to tell me a little about it. Is this a 3017 movement? And what about overall authenticity? What year do you think this one is from? 

Thanks a lot in advance!


----------



## Straight_time

Yes, it's (obviously ;-) ) a 3017.

I'd say 99% original, from what can be seen only the plexi looks like a replacement. 
Hard to tell if the brownish color of the dial is real or a result of bad lighting -sometimes you get a true bargain just because of crappy pics, sometimes they simply reflect the truth.
Flash mirroring on the movement is terrible, but there should be a pentagon logo on it -so I'd date the watch around 1970-1975.

If you like it go for it, but beware: if that watch's only problem is the missing little hand (chrono minutes counter), you could solve it with a long, patient search and a few extra $$$.
If, as I fear to see in the pic, the hand is missing AND the wheel's axle is broken, you'll need that other spare too (not a major problem, though), and a watchmaker willing to put his hands on it... in the end, this will likely mean more than just "a few" extra $$$.


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> Good news, the parts from Dashiell arrived today (It seems that Canada Post delivery time to Australia sits somewhere between Ukraine/Moldova/Belarus and Russia Post to Australia, lol) :-! Thanks Dashiell |>
> 
> So, here it is restored to it's former glory and originality. :-d Although it is a smaller watch, I still love it. Especially the dial.


Lookin' great, Mario -- nice work!!


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I stumbled upon this Sekonda Strela for a really low price and I was wondering what you guys think. The pictures that the seller posted are pretty bad but hopefully some of you will be able to tell me a little about it. Is this a 3017 movement? And what about overall authenticity? What year do you think this one is from?
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance!


I agree with Straight_time but is it working and what do you consider a really low price?


----------



## Jeroenskie

Straight_time said:


> Yes, it's (obviously ;-) ) a 3017.
> 
> I'd say 99% original, from what can be seen only the plexi looks like a replacement.
> Hard to tell if the brownish color of the dial is real or a result of bad lighting -sometimes you get a true bargain just because of crappy pics, sometimes they simply reflect the truth.
> Flash mirroring on the movement is terrible, but there should be a pentagon logo on it -so I'd date the watch around 1970-1975.
> 
> If you like it go for it, but beware: if that watch's only problem is the missing little hand (chrono minutes counter), you could solve it with a long, patient search and a few extra $$$.
> If, as I fear to see in the pic, the hand is missing AND the wheel's axle is broken, you'll need that other spare too (not a major problem, though), and a watchmaker willing to put his hands on it... in the end, this will likely mean more than just "a few" extra $$$.


Haha, I've never really studied Strela's or the 3017 movement since I always considered it out of my budget so I have not the slightest idea what it should look like :-d

I also noticed the missing seconds hand but I am willing to search for a spare part. Thanks for noticing that possible axle problem. The seller said that the watch used to run up until recently but does not run at the moment o maybe that might be the problem. I asked the seller for some better pictures and he said he will send some later this evening.



schnurrp said:


> I agree with Straight_time but is it working and what do you consider a really low price?


I am not sure what a low price is since I have never done a lot of research on these watches so my idea of cheap is based on what I have seen on Ebay. I will be able to buy this one at around $125. Do you think that is too much for a watch that needs quite some work?


----------



## silv

hi everyone

can you help me about this one :

a Komandirsky commemoration 1945-1945 calibre 2234

i think the dial is correct but i m not sure about hands especially second hand and not sur about this bezel 5.10.15.20... numbers

the 2234 caliber seem correct

please told me what you are thinking about this watch


----------



## dutchassasin

Silv, you are correct about the hands and bezel. The hands should be silver coloured, also wrong seconds hand shape. It seems to be also a wrong case shape.
Here is a fully authentic one from forum member Michele:


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> I am not sure what a low price is since I have never done a lot of research on these watches so my idea of cheap is based on what I have seen on Ebay. I will be able to buy this one at around $125. Do you think that is too much for a watch that needs quite some work?


That's a pretty good price and would be a real good price if it's working which you haven't said is the case. If it's not working, with some chrono parts missing and the balance is bad it could result in a lot of work and expense which, if that's your hobby, could be pleasurable. But, if you're just trying to save some money, it's hard to say.


----------



## dutchassasin

For $125 you could take the gamble, if it requires alot of money and work to get it repaired you can just sell it for parts and get your money back. 
If you decide not to buy the watch i might be interested in purchasing it.


----------



## Jeroenskie

So the seller just send me some new photo's and the dial looks pretty good in my opinion. But for some reason he seems not to be capable of making a photo of the movement that is not blurry..


----------



## Straight_time

Jeroenskie said:


> Haha, I've never really studied Strela's or the 3017 movement since I always considered it out of my budget so I have not the slightest idea what it should look like :-d
> 
> I also noticed the missing seconds hand but I am willing to search for a spare part. Thanks for noticing that possible axle problem. The seller said that the watch used to run up until recently but does not run at the moment o maybe that might be the problem. I asked the seller for some better pictures and he said he will send some later this evening.
> 
> I am not sure what a low price is since I have never done a lot of research on these watches so my idea of cheap is based on what I have seen on Ebay. I will be able to buy this one at around $125. Do you think that is too much for a watch that needs quite some work?


At $125 (that's around 110 Euros) I'd definitely go for it. 
As Schnurrp noted, you should pray for the balance wheel to be ok -that's the only part that could really make the budget for a repair go skyrocketing. 
If that one works, a chrono minute wheel isn't too hard to find -assuming it's actually broken- and a watchmaker would fix it while doing a complete maintenance. 
I don't know how much "The Cheapest Repair Man On The Planet" (there's a thread somewhere about him, search for it) would charge, but I think you should consider to spend around 150/180 Euros to have the job done by a professional, and the watch would still cost you WAY below average market price. ;-)


----------



## kev80e

Jeroenskie said:


> So the seller just send me some new photo's and the dial looks pretty good in my opinion. But for some reason he seems not to be capable of making a photo of the movement that is not blurry..


For that price I agree you are not likely to lose out. If it really is beyond help then you'd easily get your money back as spares. I've seen worse hands, these seem to suffer from corrosion quite a bit. Obviously you'd rather get it going which I would say be prepared to spend at least as much again. 
Good luck with it, they are great watches to own


----------



## Jeroenskie

kev80e said:


> For that price I agree you are not likely to lose out. If it really is beyond help then you'd easily get your money back as spares. I've seen worse hands, these seem to suffer from corrosion quite a bit. Obviously you'd rather get it going which I would say be prepared to spend at least as much again.
> Good luck with it, they are great watches to own


Thanks for all the advice guys, I think I will take the gamble!


----------



## schnurrp

Did I miss something? What does the seller say about whether it works or not? Excuse me if I missed this information.

Looks like wheel might be there. Maybe the second hand came loose from its base which remains on wheel pin.

Not a bad looking dial at all. Crystal is really bad.


----------



## Jeroenskie

schnurrp said:


> Did I miss something? What does the seller say about whether it works or not? Excuse me if I missed this information.
> 
> Looks like wheel might be there. Maybe the second hand came loose from its base which remains on wheel pin.
> 
> Not a bad looking dial at all. Crystal is really bad.


The seller told me it used to run but not anymore, now it just occasionally runs he says (whatever that means). He says he thinks it just needs some good cleaning to work properly again but I get the feeling that he is not very knowledgeable about watches so I am not sure if I should believe that.


----------



## stadiou

Dafydd Ellis should be able to service it for you depending on his workload. The cost will not be outrageous and some spares may still be available from Sekonda UK.
Mine should be back on Saturday from its visit to Dafydd for a new balance staff, minute wheel and various other bits.


----------



## jetcash

jetcash said:


> Raketa quartz big zero diver. Wait, what? Bad pics, too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - translated by Babelfish


I ended up winning this today after being 1st bid then forgetting about it. $30 shipped from Moldova, not bad.

Now the month of waiting starts. Definitely the worst part of collecting Russian watches.

- translated by Babelfish


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> So the seller just send me some new photo's and the dial looks pretty good in my opinion. But for some reason he seems not to be capable of making a photo of the movement that is not blurry..


Spare movements can easily go for $100+ with a working balance. I think this is worth the risk in this case.

Generally, sellers who are not knowledgable about watches or capable of taking decent photos are honest and hold genuine specimens (that's a huge overgeneralization, but has been true in my experience).

You can always hope that the minute counter just popped off and is floating around under the crystal upon arrival.

Let us know how it goes!


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Spare movements can easily go for $100+ with a working balance. I think this is worth the risk in this case.
> 
> Generally, sellers who are not knowledgable about watches or capable of taking decent photos are honest and hold genuine specimens (that's a huge overgeneralization, but has been true in my experience).
> 
> You can always hope that the minute counter just popped off and is floating around under the crystal upon arrival.
> 
> Let us know how it goes!


Looking at how the crown is not sitting straight I wonder if perhaps the movement has moved and is somehow binding and not allowing it to run for more than a few minutes. That, along with the fact the minute hand could possibly be floating around causing it's own issues with any luck it could be a simple fix. I'm probably wrong, lol.


----------



## mariomart

Does this look okay?


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> Does this look okay?


Crown is replaced, I think, and one of the bridges, too. Notice the Geneva stripes:









You'd also need to do some work on the crystal ;-)


----------



## jetcash

mroatman said:


> Crown is replaced, I think, and one of the bridges, too. Notice the Geneva stripes:
> 
> View attachment 9197522
> 
> 
> You'd also need to do some work on the crystal ;-)


Geneva stripes?

- translated by Babelfish


----------



## mroatman

jetcash said:


> Geneva stripes?
> - translated by Babelfish


Geneva stripes, aka Côtes de Genève, describe the decorations you see on the bridges. The polishing creates lines across the metal, and on an authentic movement, these should line up.

The lines you see on this movement are a good example.

More info: Uncomplicate complications - Geneva stripes - Loupiosity.com


----------



## Jeroenskie

I decided to just go for it and bought the watch a few minutes ago! Thanks for all the advice guys, I couldn't have made this decision without your knowledge!

Once it arrives I think I will make a new thread to inform you guys about the actual condition of the watch and keep you updated on the repairs necessary.



mariomart said:


> Looking at how the crown is not sitting straight I wonder if perhaps the movement has moved and is somehow binding and not allowing it to run for more than a few minutes. That, along with the fact the minute hand could possibly be floating around causing it's own issues with any luck it could be a simple fix. I'm probably wrong, lol.
> 
> View attachment 9197178


I really hope you are right! :-d

It feels a little weird that I just spend the most I have ever spend on a watch on one that I was not even planning on buying haha, let's hope it all turns out well!


----------



## kev80e

mariomart said:


> Looking at how the crown is not sitting straight I wonder if perhaps the movement has moved and is somehow binding and not allowing it to run for more than a few minutes. That, along with the fact the minute hand could possibly be floating around causing it's own issues with any luck it could be a simple fix. I'm probably wrong, lol.
> 
> View attachment 9197178





Jeroenskie said:


> I really hope you are right! :-d


I've known stranger things. I took a chance on one of these with no crown so no idea if it ran. A bit of fiddling about , very unprofessional , and it started to run.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/3017-crown-stem-advice-needed-2829154.html

Keep us informed and good luck with it.


----------



## teodorus

Hello!
While looking around to find more about Russian gold watches (I got - more or less accidentally - a Poljot automatic), found that someone has a vintage Vostok with 14 k gold case, please check the attached photos. Is this a genuine Vostok watch or something else? 

Actually please look at the time it shows...exactly like for the watches from that Vostok catalog page from 1977!! (I got the photo from the thread in this forum named ''Any thoughts about thius Vostok... ). So what's this, just a coincidence?? 
Thank you!


----------



## mroatman

teodorus said:


> Hello!
> While looking around to find more about Russian gold watches (I got - more or less accidentally - a Poljot automatic), found that someone has a vintage Vostok with 14 k gold case, please check the attached photos. Is this a genuine Vostok watch or something else?
> Actually please look at the time it shows...exactly like for the watches from that Vostok catalog page from 1977!! (I got the photo from the thread in this forum named ''Any thoughts about thius Vostok... ). So what's this, just a coincidence??
> Thank you!


The time is not a coincidence -- most photographers prefer a watch displaying 10:10 or 1:50 so that the hands are in symmetry. It's just for good looks ;-)

The golden Vostok you found appears original to me. A very valuable watch!

Here is one in NOS condition for comparison:


----------



## teodorus

Thank you very much! OK, so it's not a coincidence ) This watch however looks relatively bulky and more ''sovietic'' in design than the Poljot, but this is only my view as an outsider  Just curious, what do you mean by ''very valuable''? A price range?..Thank you! I realize the watches of the former USSR seem more attractive from my point of view because my country was also included in the Easten block and that still has a lot of significance for us.


----------



## mroatman

teodorus said:


> Thank you very much! OK, so it's not a coincidence ) This watch however looks relatively bulky and more ''sovietic'' in design than the Poljot, but this is only my view as an outsider  Just curious, what do you mean by ''very valuable''? A price range?..Thank you! I realize the watches of the former USSR seem more attractive from my point of view because my country was also included in the Easten block and that still has a lot of significance for us.


Yes, the Poljot Automatic (caliber 2415/2416 with 29 jewels) was one of the thinnest automatic movements produced at the time it was introduced, and the styling of the watch was designed to match the thin movement: it includes a low-profile crystal and sloping edges on the case, so the appearance is quite thin and sleek. But surprisingly, the Poljot movement is actually thicker than the Vostok 2409A (3.9mm vs 3.6mm, respectively) as you must account for the addition of an automatic winding rotor. It's just the styling of the Poljot that makes it appear so much thinner.

I think that solid gold Vostok you show could be sold anywhere from $300 - $600.

If you spend some time on this forum, I think you'll be surprised at how many people are attracted to Soviet watches from all over the world  Out of curiosity, where are you from?


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Yes, the Poljot Automatic (caliber 2415/2416 with 29 jewels) was one of the thinnest automatic movements produced at the time it was introduced, and the styling of the watch was designed to match the thin movement: it includes a low-profile crystal and sloping edges on the case, so the appearance is quite thin and sleek. But surprisingly, the Poljot movement is actually thicker than the Vostok 2409A (3.9mm vs 3.6mm, respectively) as you must account for the addition of an automatic winding rotor. It's just the styling of the Poljot that makes it appear so much thinner.
> 
> I think that solid gold Vostok you show could be sold anywhere from $300 - $600.
> 
> If you spend some time on this forum, I think you'll be surprised at how many people are attracted to Soviet watches from all over the world  Out of curiosity, where are you from?


These early 2409s are pretty thin:


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> These early 2409s are pretty thin:


Yes, and they may actually be thinner as measured with electronic calipers. I wouldn't be surprised. But the straight edges of the case and bubble crystal create the illusion of something thicker than the stepped-case "UFO saucer" design of the 2415, in my opinion.


----------



## alexir

Looking at this watch on eBay, says its in NOS condition. As far as I know this is quite a rare dial. What I noticed is that the boat should be facing left, but here it's facing right. Also, the writing "17 камней" under the boat present on those rare dials is missing here. Any thoughts if this is a legit item, and if so, what could explain the differences?


----------



## mariomart

alexir said:


> Looking at this watch on eBay, says its in NOS condition. As far as I know this is quite a rare dial. What I noticed is that the boat should be facing left, but here it's facing right. Also, the writing "17 камней" under the boat present on those rare dials is missing here. Any thoughts if this is a legit item, and if so, what could explain the differences?


I couldn't find this exact dial in the old catalogs I have, but I did find a dial with the same boat outline facing the same direction from a 1993 Vostok catalog, another part of the jigsaw for you


----------



## mariomart

alexir said:


> Looking at this watch on eBay, says its in NOS condition. As far as I know this is quite a rare dial. What I noticed is that the boat should be facing left, but here it's facing right. Also, the writing "17 камней" under the boat present on those rare dials is missing here. Any thoughts if this is a legit item, and if so, what could explain the differences?


And here's an old Ebay listing for the same dial as yours.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-sov...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## alexir

mariomart said:


> And here's an old Ebay listing for the same dial as yours.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-sov...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


Thanks! Very interesting. This listing says it's from the early 80s, but as far as I know at that time the factory was making an almost identical dial with the boat facing the other direction and the 17 jewels label.









(From Juri Levenberg's book)

So something seems off - maybe the watch is authentic but from a different period, or maybe something else?


----------



## kev80e

alexir said:


> Looking at this watch on eBay, says its in NOS condition. As far as I know this is quite a rare dial. What I noticed is that the boat should be facing left, but here it's facing right. Also, the writing "17 камней" under the boat present on those rare dials is missing here. Any thoughts if this is a legit item, and if so, what could explain the differences?


Looks good to me. All the lume seems to match, notice even the hour hand seems to have been lumed the same as the the other example . A nice find I'd say , in great condition. These little differences weren't that uncommon. For instance I have this, most of these have a red star, mines just silver.


----------



## longarmofthelock

Hello all. I've recently become obsessed with procuring what people on the forum seem to refer to as the Komandirskie 1965. (Or something similarly styled.) I've researched the basics but am still a novice when it comes to the details and am wondering about the listing pictured below. Specifically, though I've seen similarly styled with 2209 movements it looks like more commonly they come with the 2214. Most of those have 2214 stamped on the movement itself. This one has 2214 stamped on the caseback but not the movement itself. Is that a red flag for "franken?"

Thanks for any advice you might have.


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

alexir said:


> Looking at this watch on eBay, says its in NOS condition. As far as I know this is quite a rare dial. What I noticed is that the boat should be facing left, but here it's facing right. Also, the writing "17 камней" under the boat present on those rare dials is missing here. Any thoughts if this is a legit item, and if so, what could explain the differences?


The dial looks fine to me, although the lume on the hour hand and the scratch on the upper right lug are suspicious on a "NOS" piece. I suppose the lume could be a sloppy original job, and the scratch could be from improper long-term storage, but I certainly would not pay a NOS-premium-price with those attributes.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Looks fine to my eye, even the crown appears to be the correct style, and i haven't seen one like this come up for sale in a while. Perhaps anybody else can spot something?









Need something to fill in the blanks as the 2609 i got has a busted mainspring and some weird dirt on the escape wheel.


----------



## mroatman

longarmofthelock said:


> Hello all. I've recently become obsessed with procuring what people on the forum seem to refer to as the Komandirskie 1965. (Or something similarly styled.) I've researched the basics but am still a novice when it comes to the details and am wondering about the listing pictured below. Specifically, though I've seen similarly styled with 2209 movements it looks like more commonly they come with the 2214. Most of those have 2214 stamped on the movement itself. This one has 2214 stamped on the caseback but not the movement itself. Is that a red flag for "franken?"
> Thanks for any advice you might have.


Ask the seller if it hacks. If so, you've got a 2214. If not, either the case back or movement has been replaced.

I don't know the precise details of when the movement calibers where stamped onto the bridges of these movements, but I would say the lack of "2214" on the main bridge does not necessarily mean it's a franken. Hopefully others will know for sure.


----------



## mroatman

SinanjuStein said:


> Looks fine to my eye, even the crown appears to be the correct style, and i haven't seen one like this come up for sale in a while. Perhaps anybody else can spot something?
> Need something to fill in the blanks as the 2609 i got has a busted mainspring and some weird dirt on the escape wheel.


Can't post images right now, but check out mine and the catalog. The hands on your watch are different, without the angled ends, but they are definitely genuine Vostok hands from this period and most likely an authentic variation. (In the catalog image, the watch on the top left seems to have the same hands.)


----------



## SinanjuStein

mroatman said:


> Can't post images right now, but check out mine and the catalog. The hands on your watch are different, without the angled ends, but they are definitely genuine Vostok hands from this period and most likely an authentic variation. (In the catalog image, the watch on the top left seems to have the same hands.)


Which is what was my dilemma here, i saw a model with the same face and hands as the one i posted, but generally in a chromed cased and not a GP.

And the black and white catalog is problematic, but it looks well so i might as well as go for it. (Since i can no longer afford JDM pieces on a regular basis)


----------



## longarmofthelock

mroatman said:


> Ask the seller if it hacks. If so, you've got a 2214. If not, either the case back or movement has been replaced.
> 
> I don't know the precise details of when the movement calibers where stamped onto the bridges of these movements, but I would say the lack of "2214" on the main bridge does not necessarily mean it's a franken. Hopefully others will know for sure.


Much appreciated!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Straight_time

mroatman said:


> Ask the seller if it hacks. If so, you've got a 2214. If not, either the case back or movement has been replaced.


2214? Wasn't the 2234 the hacking movement :-s


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> 2214? Wasn't the 2234 the hacking movement :-s


Yes, duh, of course you are right!

In my opinion, the only two authentic movements for these early Komandirskies are 2214 (non-hacking) and 2234 (hacking).

Caliber 2209 is without a date complication, which would be pretty useless on this watch.

My apologies for the error, longarmofthelock.


----------



## longarmofthelock

mroatman said:


> Yes, duh, of course you are right!
> 
> In my opinion, the only two authentic movements for these early Komandirskies are 2214 (non-hacking) and 2234 (hacking).
> 
> Caliber 2209 is without a date complication, which would be pretty useless on this watch.
> 
> My apologies for the error, longarmofthelock.


No worries. Thanks to you both.

Seems like no one else is jumping up to flag any other anomalies from those photos so I'll take that as a good sign as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

longarmofthelock said:


> No worries. Thanks to you both.
> 
> Seems like no one else is jumping up to flag any other anomalies from those photos so I'll take that as a good sign as well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The star looks a little too red considering the condition of the rest of the dial.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> My Sekonda version. Notice back which appears to simulate a two piece construction, has the Sekonda statement: "FULLY JEWELLED LEVER MOVEMENT" found in the catalogs.
> 
> View attachment 9039081


Caught one!

































A couple thing I've noticed after handling in the flesh. First, the extended tip on my second hand does not curve down nicely like yours. I'm guessing some prior watchmaker made this adjustment to your watch in order to clear the crystal; it seems more logical that way than someone straightening it out on mine, though who knows. I have to say, I like your curved tip better and may add a slight bend to mine.

Second, there is a small "T" written below the 7 o'clock index, which I can only assume refers to the use of Tritium on the dial(?). I am guessing this was some UK import requirement, but it's interesting that I have not seen this on any other Sekonda model.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Caught one!
> 
> View attachment 9247722
> 
> 
> View attachment 9247762
> 
> 
> View attachment 9247738
> 
> 
> View attachment 9247770
> 
> 
> A couple thing I've noticed after handling in the flesh. First, the extended tip on my second hand does not curve down nicely like yours. I'm guessing some prior watchmaker made this adjustment to your watch in order to clear the crystal; it seems more logical that way than someone straightening it out on mine, though who knows. I have to say, I like your curved tip better and may add a slight bend to mine.
> 
> Second, there is a small "T" written below the 7 o'clock index, which I can only assume refers to the use of Tritium on the dial(?). I am guessing this was some UK import requirement, but it's interesting that I have not seen this on any other Sekonda model.
> 
> View attachment 9247754


Very nice condition, comrade Mroatman!

The crystal on mine needs to be replaced as it is cracked and its vertical shoulders distort badly but a close look reveals the same "T" as on yours. The second hand was damaged at some point and I doubt the slight curvature, if it's there (may be mostly distortion), is "as-built".

Tritium is described as the last generation of luminescent paints and as having its own glow. These Sekondas probably have one of the more commonly used radioluminescent paints of the day, which needed to be "charged" in an exterior light source and then gradually lost their glow. I think we have to look elsewhere for the meaning of the "T" at seven.

Good pickup!


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> The crystal on mine needs to be replaced as it is cracked and its vertical shoulders distort badly but a close look reveals the same "T" as on yours. The second hand was damaged at some point and I doubt the slight curvature, if it's there (may be mostly distortion), is "as-built".


Careful with the crystal. I used a lift to extract mine, and it basically shattered coming free from the bezel, as there was a sort of interior metal ring on the inside of the crystal to help hold it in place (hard to describe). I recommend removing the movement and pushing the crystal out from the back in the off-chance yours has the same design.



schnurrp said:


> Tritium is described as the last generation of luminescent paints and as having its own glow. These Sekondas probably have one of the more commonly used radioluminescent paints of the day, which needed to be "charged" in an exterior light source and then gradually lost their glow. I think we have to look elsewhere for the meaning of the "T" at seven.


Dag! I thought I had it figured out. Where's Sekondtime when you need him.



schnurrp said:


> Good pickup!


Well, I paid over three times what you did, so it better be -- and you still walk away having scored the far better deal!


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Well, I paid over three times what you did, so it better be ....


Stop spending your seachange money Dashiell, lol


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> Stop spending your seachange money Dashiell, lol


Guilty!!


----------



## meaantje

Am i right on thinking this is franken?










I dont know very much about these watches but bezel and dial dont seem to match. Did a quick search on google on it and couldnt find any watch with this combination.


----------



## meaantje

Another interesting Perpetual Callender. I havent seen this dial before either. Is this even a Raketa?










Does anyone have info on this? It is at auction and the price is still very low. Might bid on it if this watch has an interesting history to it!


----------



## schnurrp

Both of those Raketas look authentic to me, The "special order" dials were probably commissioned from Petrodvorets and gladly produced during a time of turmoil and low sales. It would be necessary to confirm the appropriate movement and low profile crystal, however.


----------



## meaantje

schnurrp said:


> Both of those Raketas look authentic to me, The "special order" dials were probably commissioned from Petrodvorets and gladly produced during a time of turmoil and low sales. It would be necessary to confirm the appropriate movement and low profile crystal, however.


Thanks for the info. The price shot up quite a bit to 50$ so i decided against bidding on it. Next time i will do some more research after i see an interesting item. Almost put in a bid on a Aviotor handwound 2614 but was only a bit concerned about the scratches on the crystal being worse than the seller said they were (the highest bid was only 60$ at that time!!, went for 90$ in the end). There is a lot of online auctions comming up here and sometimes you can find a nice bargain. Might post some more pictures here in the future. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Davetay

Just paid for this and on it's way. Seller claimed all original. Hope i did ok

Sent from my HM NOTE 1W using Tapatalk


----------



## meaantje

Davetay said:


> Just paid for this and on it's way. Seller claimed all original. Hope i did ok
> 
> Sent from my HM NOTE 1W using Tapatalk


Looks okay!
https://www.watchuseek.com/f97/nos-sturmanskie-3133-a-40756.html
Check this thread


----------



## Straight_time

Davetay said:


> Just paid for this and on it's way. Seller claimed all original. Hope i did ok


No, you didn't. I wanted it. :-|

Alas, it happened to be slightly :roll: out of my current budget, so in the end ok, you have my blessing. :-d

Seriously: not a real expert, but it looked a true beauty to me. Congrats and enjoy it.


----------



## Davetay

Thanks guys for the assurance and blessing! Can't wait for the item to arrive!


----------



## dutchassasin

Opinions about this one? seller has no description listed in the ad but it seems like a post soviet 3133 sturmie. Ive seen several hand variations and i dont know which is factory original. Hard to see but the hands are silver and not black as i thought at first


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> Opinions about this one? seller has no description listed in the ad but it seems like a post soviet 3133 sturmie. Ive seen several hand variations and i dont know which is factory original.


Not the military issue 31659 stainless steel shturmanskie many are looking for, case is chrome-plated and rotating bezel is incorrect.

Might be this one in the middle from '92 Poljot catalog:


----------



## dutchassasin

thanks comrade Schnurrp for your expertise!


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I found this Vostok Precision on eBay, so is it legit or franken?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> I found this Vostok Precision on eBay, so is it legit or franken?


Notice the mismatch between the Cyrillic dial and English case back. Not a deal-breaker, in my opinion, but does suggest the watch isn't fully original.


----------



## schnurrp

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the dial has been replaced. That dial style is usually seen in the catalogs with simple baton hands, I believe.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the dial has been replaced. That dial style is usually seen in the catalogs with simple baton hands, I believe.


The man speaks the truth! Based on examples available to me, it looks like this dial demands blued hour/minute hands and a red second hand with arrow tip.

A few other examples:


----------



## wekke

dutchassasin said:


> Opinions about this one? seller has no description listed in the ad but it seems like a post soviet 3133 sturmie. Ive seen several hand variations and i dont know which is factory original. Hard to see but the hands are silver and not black as i thought at first


hello dutchassasin,
not postsovjiet,
ca 1990, with plated case and correct bezel,
think this one on polmax site should fit the bill,
greetings,
wekke


----------



## slls

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



dutchassasin said:


> thanks comrade Schnurrp for your expertise!


Just in case; I have a complete stainless steel case (left one of the picture) for sale. I have it as spare, but since I finished my 31659 project with another spare case I don't need it anymore.


----------



## dutchassasin

Thanks for the offer Hans, but it turns out the watch had already been sold. The seller forgot to close the listing.... Oh well, maybe i have more luck on the upcoming rikketik in October.


----------



## slls

dutchassasin said:


> Thanks for the offer Hans, but it turns out the watch had already been sold. The seller forgot to close the listing.... Oh well, maybe i have more luck on the upcoming rikketik in October.


2 October? Maybe I'll go too...


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Seller sent me some photos of Vostok Precsion. I guess it is original with 2809 movement.
PricePrice: US $89.99 + $5 shipping. Is it so expensive?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> Seller sent me some photos of Vostok Precsion. I guess it is original with 2809 movement.
> PricePrice: US $89.99 + $5 shipping. Is it so expensive?


Appears all original except the crown (maybe it's just very worn, but the original is slightly bigger and knob-like, in my experience). I believe the price is too high for a watch with a dial and case in this condition -- but value is determined by the buyer.

Checking my records, this one cost me about $54 after shipping.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> Appears all original except the crown (maybe it's just very worn, but the original is slightly bigger and knob-like, in my experience). I believe the price is too high for a watch with a dial and case in this condition -- but value is determined by the buyer.
> 
> Checking my records, this one cost me about $54 after shipping.


wow, OMG. Your watch is very perfect. 
Do you sell it to me? I love it.


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> wow, OMG. Your watch is very perfect.
> Do you sell it to me? I love it.


PM sent


----------



## DadDroid

I'm reluctant to post this one, just because I think it's such a pretty little timepiece, but I really want to know more about it. I suspect the crystal has been replaced, but what about the rest of it? Can anyone tell me a little bit about what model it is?

























Many thanks as always....


----------



## kakefe

Anything unusual about this 960 ?


















Instagram : @watchcolony


----------



## mroatman

kakefe said:


> Anything unusual about this 960 ?


Bezel is incorrect, in my opinion. I believe it should be black, like this, though I'm not 100% sure on all variations.


----------



## Coug76

kakefe said:


> Anything unusual about this 960 ?
> 
> Instagram : @watchcolony


I'm a bit skeptical of the seconds hand and *maybe* the hour hand. The date wheel looks wrong to me (like a modern replacement for the original).

Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


----------



## mroatman

Coug76 said:


> I'm a bit skeptical of the seconds hand and *maybe* the hour hand. The date wheel looks wrong to me (like a modern replacement for the original).


Yes, back at home now, I didn't see the second hand was red. Lots of question marks with this watch. I would pass.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

Seller sent me some photos of Buran, I think it is OK. But the benzel is not original in my opinion.
And about movement, I dont know anything.


----------



## schnurrp

DadDroid said:


> I'm reluctant to post this one, just because I think it's such a pretty little timepiece, but I really want to know more about it. I suspect the crystal has been replaced, but what about the rest of it? Can anyone tell me a little bit about what model it is?
> 
> View attachment 9348026
> 
> 
> View attachment 9348034
> 
> 
> View attachment 9348042
> 
> 
> Many thanks as always....


Maybe hands should be tapered like this one in '83 catalog. Can be a very nice operating automatic, the best auto movement, in my opinion.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Bezel is incorrect, in my opinion. I believe it should be black, like this, though I'm not 100% sure on all variations.


I agree, going by available catalogs, but I've seen some convincing examples with that "universal" bezel, on at least five different case types over a period of more than 10 years: 350, 119, 710, 960, 34 kom, from memory.

Here's Antonov's:


----------



## Arizone

kakefe said:


> Anything unusual about this 960 ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instagram : @watchcolony


Aside the other mentions the lume looks rather sloppy.


----------



## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> Seller sent me some photos of Buran, I think it is OK. But the benzel is not original in my opinion.
> And about movement, I dont know anything.


Everything looks okay to me.


----------



## DadDroid

schnurrp said:


> Maybe hands should be tapered like this one in '83 catalog. Can be a very nice operating automatic, the best auto movement, in my opinion.


That does look very similar! The seller claims it's from the mid-1970s, so possibly different hands from that era. It keeps very good time as long as I keep it wound, and the automatic wind still works perfectly. Thanks!


----------



## ross2187

Anyone have any info on this particular komandirskie? I picked it up on Etsy, as I do with all my russian watches. I really want to swap the second hand out with a Amphibia hand.


----------



## schnurrp

DadDroid said:


> That does look very similar! The seller claims it's from the mid-1970s, so possibly different hands from that era. It keeps very good time as long as I keep it wound, and the automatic wind still works perfectly. Thanks!


Nothing like it in the '77 catalog: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipP53wc9VZDHgwXGXMnlh2iI9_80P9ktztAzQVta

The fact that it works well will help offset any doubts about authenticity


----------



## mariomart

ross2187 said:


> Anyone have any info on this particular komandirskie? I picked it up on Etsy, as I do with all my russian watches. I really want to swap the second hand out with a Amphibia hand.
> 
> View attachment 9378786


From the 1992 Vostok Komandirskie Calendar


----------



## DadDroid

mariomart said:


> From the 1992 Vostok Komandirskie Calendar


Umm... Am I missing something? That's a pretty big difference from the Poljot I was asking about. A nice watch nonetheless.


----------



## mariomart

DadDroid said:


> Umm... Am I missing something? That's a pretty big difference from the Poljot I was asking about. A nice watch nonetheless.


Oops, sorry. I quoted the wrong post. I'll fix it.


----------



## DadDroid

mariomart said:


> Oops, sorry. I quoted the wrong post. I'll fix it.


Ah! No worries, I thought I was overlooking something really obvious.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I show some photos of Vostok Precision 2809.
Is it legit? And the crown is original? Can you determine Age and Origin of this Vostok Precision?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> I show some photos of Vostok Precision 2809.
> Is it legit? And the crown is original? Can you determine Age and Origin of this Vostok Precision?


All parts appear correct, but someone has been a bit aggressive with the dial cleaning. This dial should have "precision" indicators along the perimeter of the dial. However, the edges of the dial are prone to getting dirty over time. While cleaning the dial, someone has wiped away the markers on the edge of the dial, which makes this watch pretty useless for precision timekeeping.

I would wait for a dial which is intact.


----------



## maxlevett

Lucky_Luke said:


> I show some photos of Vostok Precision 2809.
> Is it legit? And the crown is original? Can you determine Age and Origin of this Vostok Precision?


Movement shows signs on silver parts of water/condensation being present for some time. 
Plenty of genuine watches out there, but finding one with a good clean original dial is near impossible.


----------



## schnurrp

maxlevett said:


> Movement shows signs on silver parts of water/condensation being present for some time.
> Plenty of genuine watches out there, but finding one with a good clean original dial is near impossible.


Has also lost origin designation under "6".


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> All parts appear correct, but someone has been a bit aggressive with the dial cleaning. This dial should have "precision" indicators along the perimeter of the dial. However, the edges of the dial are prone to getting dirty over time. While cleaning the dial, someone has wiped away the markers on the edge of the dial, which makes this watch pretty useless for precision timekeeping.
> 
> I would wait for a dial which is intact.
> 
> View attachment 9386482





maxlevett said:


> Movement shows signs on silver parts of water/condensation being present for some time.
> Plenty of genuine watches out there, but finding one with a good clean original dial is near impossible.





schnurrp said:


> Has also lost origin designation under "6".


So, how do we know the age of the watch?


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> So, how do we know the age of the watch?


Unless the movement is date stamped, we don't. The Vostok brand didn't appear until 1964, so it was definitely after that.

Based on styling alone, and a case that was shared with the Volna in the late 1950s and early 1960s, one might estimate this watch was produced in the mid/late 1960s -- but that's a guess.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Unless the movement is date stamped, we don't. The Vostok brand didn't appear until 1964, so it was definitely after that.
> 
> Based on styling alone, and a case that was shared with the Volna in the late 1950s and early 1960s, one might estimate this watch was produced in the mid/late 1960s -- but that's a guess.


Sometimes we are lucky enough to find a convincing "passport" showing date of sale with one of these or an appropriately dated inscription on the case back. Neither of these methods are foolproof since papers and case backs can be switched. If memory serves, I believe Chistopol stopped dating the 2809 movements around 1960.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> If memory serves, I believe Chistopol stopped dating the 2809 movements around 1960.


Yep, 1960.


----------



## AGAPITO

What do you think about these Buran watches? I can´t see the movements inside, and the watches have two diferent cases. Are legit these cases? I thought that it were all steel watches. Are good watches?


----------



## AGAPITO

What do you thing about this Molnija? It´s 3-51. I think it´s ok, but can you help me? Do you think is legit? Thank you in advance.


----------



## stadiou

Looks OK to me but the real experts will weigh in pretty soon...


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> What do you think about these Buran watches? I can´t see the movements inside, and the watches have two diferent cases. Are legit these cases? I thought that it were all steel watches. Are good watches?
> 
> View attachment 9423690
> 
> 
> View attachment 9423698
> 
> 
> View attachment 9423706
> 
> 
> View attachment 9423714


Looks legit to me.

I believe all those Buran 3133 chronos (there were a number of dials, same cases basically) started out as homages to the type 59 kirovskie chrono from the '40s, a very rare and expensive collectible that I'm sure was made of chrome-plated brass so why change.

Here's comrade Lucidor's type 59:


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> What do you thing about this Molnija? It´s 3-51. I think it´s ok, but can you help me? Do you think is legit? Thank you in advance.


Looks good to me. The crystal could use a buff, and the movement looks kinda dirty, but all parts appear authentic to my eye.


----------



## mariomart

I wasn't sure where to post this question but figured this would probably be the most helpful area, so apologies if I'm wrong.

I received a few watches this week from Russia and in amongst them was an Amphibia with a case that has me slightly puzzled.

It appears to be an older 420 case but it's the color of the metal that has me puzzled. It appears to have a slightly goldish lustre and when placed next to a stainless steel Amphibia and a brass Titanium Nitride coated Komandirskie, as pictured, you can see what I mean.

All 3 cases have been given an ultrasonic clean as I thought it may have been "dirty" but it's still the same.

Any thoughts?


----------



## pjd

Could you give me an opinion on this?

I think it is post USSR, as the movement is marked "made in Russia.." but before I go ahead and buy it, does it look legit?


----------



## S.H.

No, fake dial (and balance bridge replaced)


----------



## pjd

Ok, thanks for the information.

Could you tell me what makes this one stand out as having a fake dial?


----------



## S.H.

Look closely at the font of the small numbers. Also, the lume: very clean, flat, dirty green compared to the bright green and puffy lume of the original.


----------



## pjd

Thank you. I appreciate your help.


----------



## S.H.

Thanks!
Be careful, lots of the new / fake dials are floating around : old civilian Ponet, newer Sturmanskie, Okeah, ...


----------



## wekke

pjd said:


> Ok, thanks for the information.
> 
> Could you tell me what makes this one stand out as having a fake dial?


as S.H. stated, the dial is fake for shure, as are the chrono hands, 
anyway if it was real, then it was a first generation cyrillic civilian and should have a movement with at least a 2-piece lever,
i my opinion this one is even not very usable for spare parts

this one is real:

View attachment 9466026














werner


----------



## Davetay

Dear experts, is this watch ok? All seller's pics.

Sent from my HM NOTE 1W using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Davetay said:


> Dear experts, is this watch ok? All seller's pics.
> 
> Sent from my HM NOTE 1W using Tapatalk


Not an expert but aren't those two different dials? Look at the "Poljot" font.

They look great to me.


----------



## Davetay

schnurrp said:


> Not an expert but aren't those two different dials? Look at the "Poljot" font.
> 
> They look great to me.


Thanks for pointed that out. Will have to ask the seller which one is he selling. Can i assume that both are legit?

Sent from my HM NOTE 1W using Tapatalk


----------



## Coug76

mariomart said:


> I wasn't sure where to post this question but figured this would probably be the most helpful area, so apologies if I'm wrong.
> 
> I received a few watches this week from Russia and in amongst them was an Amphibia with a case that has me slightly puzzled.
> 
> It appears to be an older 420 case but it's the color of the metal that has me puzzled. It appears to have a slightly goldish lustre and when placed next to a stainless steel Amphibia and a brass Titanium Nitride coated Komandirskie, as pictured, you can see what I mean.
> 
> All 3 cases have been given an ultrasonic clean as I thought it may have been "dirty" but it's still the same.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 9451066


From the picture it almost looks like a 921 case. If so, the material is chromed brass.


----------



## schnurrp

Davetay said:


> Thanks for pointed that out. Will have to ask the seller which one is he selling. Can i assume that both are legit?
> 
> Sent from my HM NOTE 1W using Tapatalk


They both look good to me but you may want to wait for some further confirmation. Almost too good to be true. Minty!

From Antonov's collection:


----------



## Davetay

schnurrp said:


> They both look good to me but you may want to wait for some further confirmation. Almost too good to be true. Minty!
> 
> From Antonov's collection:
> 
> View attachment 9476010
> View attachment 9476034


Thanks! Appreciate your opinion on this.

Sent from my HM NOTE 1W using Tapatalk


----------



## jetcash

Interesting bezel. What's the story on this one?









-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## dutchassasin

Jet, could you give the ebay item number or larger pictures. I can not say anything about a watch featured on a postage stamp picture.


----------



## jetcash

Yeah, that'd be helpful.
162186537046.

-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## SinanjuStein

I'm surprised nobody else grabbed it.

Am i missing something or is the combination of gold plating+barrel case is too much for some people?









Personally i'm thinking of what strap to put, and extremely tempted to slap it onto a cuff strap.


----------



## pjd

Does this look genuine?

I have looked on Google images and all watches like this I have seen do not have matching lume. The triangle at 12.00 differs from the hands and hour markers..


----------



## fliegerchrono

pjd said:


> View attachment 9532386
> 
> 
> Does this look genuine?
> 
> I have looked on Google images and all watches like this I have seen do not have matching lume. The triangle at 12.00 differs from the hands and hour markers..


Looks like mine! And yes it is genuine


----------



## pjd

Thank you for the confirmation! I have just bought it!! Should arrive on Wednesday.

Do you know anything about these watches? 
Now I really do need to stop using eBay...


----------



## Tarquin

Pretty sure I know the answer to this.........but - they never made this dial with gold indices, did they? I just can't see how this has been put together so nicely.









Also yeah, wrong second hand, wrong case etc. Still, pretty though.


----------



## wekke

hello pjd, to me this looks OK
here a comparable picture from 'polmax' website (under 1992)







ps: PM send
greetings


----------



## wekke




----------



## pjd

Thank you Wekke.
It is a shame that it fades in sunlight. Luckily it is rarely sunny in this country...


----------



## mariomart

Tarquin said:


> Pretty sure I know the answer to this.........but - they never made this dial with gold indices, did they? I just can't see how this has been put together so nicely.
> 
> View attachment 9533242
> 
> 
> Also yeah, wrong second hand, wrong case etc. Still, pretty though.


The indices are actually silver, the angle of the photo makes them appear slightly golden. The dial indicates "Anti-magnetic" and should also have an automatic movement, so the caseback should be of the type with an integrated anti-magnetic shield. I'm pretty sure the case is fine (an oversized 420 case from the early 90's). The bezel is a fake (notice the upside down 30). The second hand is probably from a Komandirskie.


----------



## Tarquin

mariomart said:


> The indices are actually silver, the angle of the photo makes them appear slightly golden. The dial indicates "Anti-magnetic" and should also have an automatic movement, so the caseback should be of the type with an integrated anti-magnetic shield. I'm pretty sure the case is fine (an oversized 420 case from the early 90's). The bezel is a fake (notice the upside down 30). The second hand is probably from a Komandirskie.


Did you see the original listing? Each photo from every angle looked like gold, which is what threw me. I wondered how the hell someone could make such a nice job of replacing the metalwork on the dial!

Anyway I had a nice custom idea lined up for it, and would have been very disappointed had the thing turned up silver - but no way was I going to pay anything close to the price it went for in the end.

Also, I thought the CCCP scuba dials were originally put into the Neptune cases only....is that incorrect?


----------



## schnurrp

Tarquin said:


> Did you see the original listing? Each photo from every angle looked like gold, which is what threw me. I wondered how the hell someone could make such a nice job of replacing the metalwork on the dial!
> 
> Anyway I had a nice custom idea lined up for it, and would have been very disappointed had the thing turned up silver - but no way was I going to pay anything close to the price it went for in the end.
> 
> Also, I thought the CCCP scuba dials were originally put into the Neptune cases only....is that incorrect?


Despite what the photo appeared to show the finish of the indices matched the hands. This case was presented as an authentic variation as pictured below in the Seele, et al, amphibian case type study without the changes as noted by mariomart. Amphibians with this case type show up from time to time and usually are sold for a high price. Pretty rare.:


----------



## cuthbert

I assume this one is a Frankie:









In particular the case has been (badly) refinished, hands and dial relumed (that is not bad) and I think this one should have a round crown, am I mistaken?

Still, I liked the green dial, so I bid it.


----------



## mroatman

cuthbert said:


> I assume this one is a Frankie:
> 
> In particular the case has been (badly) refinished, hands and dial relumed (that is not bad) and I think this one should have a round crown, am I mistaken?
> 
> Still, I liked the green dial, so I bid it.


It is interesting. I think you are correct on all points. I would have said complete franken, but the cracked paint on the dial suggests at least the substrate is original.

As far as frankens go, at least it appears the watchmaker was trying to be faithful to the original design.


----------



## KasperDK

Did anything like this ever exist, or is it just someone who practiced dial painting?


----------



## schnurrp

SinanjuStein said:


> I'm surprised nobody else grabbed it.
> 
> Am i missing something or is the combination of gold plating+barrel case is too much for some people?
> 
> View attachment 9532210
> 
> 
> Personally i'm thinking of what strap to put, and extremely tempted to slap it onto a cuff strap.


Nice one!

Here's mine with a little different case and the non-lumed dial/hands. Both can be found in a '77 Poljot catalog. Probably my favorite soviet watch movement. Performance is "as-received" for $23/delvd.

View attachment 6.jpg


----------



## SinanjuStein

schnurrp said:


> Nice one!
> 
> Here's mine with a little different case and the non-lumed dial/hands. Both can be found in a '77 Poljot catalog. Probably my favorite soviet watch movement. Performance is "as-received" for $23/delvd.


Said to be serviced and running, and i'll likely regulate it further when it arrives.

I'm quite fan of how simple are Vostok and Poljot movements to regulate, as they seem to be not vary too much from position to position.

Makes me want to get another one.


----------



## SinanjuStein

SinanjuStein said:


> Said to be serviced and running, and i'll likely regulate it further when it arrives.
> 
> I'm quite fan of how simple are Vostok and Poljot movements to regulate, as they seem to be not vary too much from position to position.
> 
> Makes me want to get another one.


Annnnnd i own another one.


----------



## mariomart

This is not a dial I've seen before, but the price was right and I liked the look of it so I bought it :-! The listing said it was from the 70's.

Has anyone got any additional info on this one?

Thanks


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> This is not a dial I've seen before, but the price was right and I liked the look of it so I bought it :-! The listing said it was from the 70's.
> 
> Has anyone got any additional info on this one?
> 
> Thanks


Interesting. I like it, too.

But a couple things that stand out to me: the dial appears virtually new (not impossible, but on a before-unseen dial type, that might raise a red flag); I've never seen those Komandirskie-style hands with white paint rather than lume (doesn't mean anything, really -- just an observation); usually on these Vostok dials with interior minute markers, a shorter second hand is used (see here and here and here; the arrow-tip on your watch isn't really pointing to anything); and the crown doesn't seem to sit flush with the case (maybe it's in the time-setting position?).

I think you'll need to have a closer look when it's in your hands and report back


----------



## mroatman

mroatman said:


> usually on these Vostok dials with interior minute markers, a shorter second hand is used (see here and here and here; the arrow-tip on your watch isn't really pointing to anything


I've found a couple vintage Komandirskies that don't follow this rule, so I think this point is moot.

One example (far right):


----------



## mariomart

I found these pictures on an internet site called "Popscreen" https://www.popscreen.com/prod/MTAz...ch-Panel-Clock-for-military-purpose-Serviced-

The original Ebay links that it leads to have expired so it must have been listed quite a while ago.

It's the date window version of the same dial, but what I find most interesting is that it appears to be in a retail type box. Whether or not the box and watch are correctly matched at least it shows there were other variants of this dial in circulation in the past.

Also, the painted hands and painted seconds hand are also the same.


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> I found these pictures on an internet site called "Popscreen" https://www.popscreen.com/prod/MTAz...ch-Panel-Clock-for-military-purpose-Serviced-
> 
> The original Ebay links that it leads to have expired so it must have been listed quite a while ago.
> 
> It's the date window version of the same dial, but what I find most interesting is that it appears to be in a retail type box. Whether or not the box and watch are correctly matched at least it shows there were other variants of this dial in circulation in the past.
> 
> Also, the painted hands and painted seconds hand are also the same.


Yep. In light of your recent discovery, I'd say completely authentic. We'd need more evidence to be sure, of course, but at this point, I'd be convinced enough to buy.

Nice find!


----------



## schnurrp

It's authentic: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/anybody-recognize-vostok-687990.html


----------



## Pentona

Is everything OK with this one?


----------



## 103ssv

Pentona said:


> Is everything OK with this one?


No, absolutely not.
Soviet dial, wrong Russian mechanism (not 17 jewel), and I believe this dial belongs to a plastic case.


----------



## Pentona

103ssv said:


> No, absolutely not.
> Soviet dial, wrong Russian mechanism (not 17 jewel), and I believe this dial belongs to a plastic case.


Thank you!


----------



## iannnb

Hey guys, long time lurker, but I decided to sign up to seek your expertise. I currently own a newer Komandirskie and have really been wanting an Amphibia that was actually produced during the USSR era. I've been trying to figure out how to detect franken watches, but there were so many models produced during the soviet era, that its hard to tell whats real and whats not.

I found this watch

VOSTOK WOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE Diver Amphibian Amphibia USSR Soviet Russian Watch | eBay

I looked through the Vostok collection on russianwatches.altervista.org and the closest model I found was this guy

http://russianwatches.altervista.org/P1030890.JPG

Description from that website 
"*Model: Amphibia/Neptune "Scuba Dude"
Year: late '80s
Caliber: 2416-B, automatic+hand winding, 21 jewels, date window
Note: classic "scuba dude" automatic with Neptune case. Original bracelet. Water resistant to 200M, screwdown crown, rotating bezel, acrylic glass, luminous hands, antimagnetic internal shield. Diameter 39 mm. "
*
The lugs on the two watches are different and the ebay one has a red seconds hand. What do you think? Franken? Is is actually from the 80's? Is the price even a fair price? Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

iannnb said:


> Hey guys, long time lurker, but I decided to sign up to seek your expertise. I currently own a newer Komandirskie and have really been wanting an Amphibia that was actually produced during the USSR era. I've been trying to figure out how to detect franken watches, but there were so many models produced during the soviet era, that its hard to tell whats real and whats not.
> 
> I found this watch
> 
> VOSTOK WOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE Diver Amphibian Amphibia USSR Soviet Russian Watch | eBay
> 
> I looked through the Vostok collection on russianwatches.altervista.org and the closest model I found was this guy
> 
> http://russianwatches.altervista.org/P1030890.JPG
> 
> Description from that website
> "*Model: Amphibia/Neptune "Scuba Dude"
> Year: late '80s
> Caliber: 2416-B, automatic+hand winding, 21 jewels, date window
> Note: classic "scuba dude" automatic with Neptune case. Original bracelet. Water resistant to 200M, screwdown crown, rotating bezel, acrylic glass, luminous hands, antimagnetic internal shield. Diameter 39 mm. "
> *
> The lugs on the two watches are different and the ebay one has a red seconds hand. What do you think? Franken? Is is actually from the 80's? Is the price even a fair price? Thanks!


It appears the movement has been replaced with a RUS branded model or a Russian era 420 has been given the soviet scuba dude dial. I'd stay away at that price. You can do better.

Also from Michelle type 420 amphibian with classic dot-dash lume dot bezel and red second hand:


----------



## iannnb

schnurrp said:


> It appears the movement has been replaced with a RUS branded model or a Russian era 420 has been given the soviet scuba dude dial. I'd stay away at that price. You can do better.
> 
> Also from Michelle type 420 amphibian with classic dot-dash lume dot bezel and red second hand:
> 
> View attachment 9622010


The hunt continues then  thanks!


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Hello guys! When I finally thought that Vostok dial couldn't give me any more surprises I found this one.I've never seen it again, do you think it's genuine or just a fantasy dial?


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hi everyone!

I have been looking for a alarm watch for a while now and this one looks really good to me. However the dial seems a bit to new to me compared to the case and to other ones I have seen online. Do you think it is real or might it be a fake/repainted dial? 

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Just read Geoff Adams thread about this watch and based on the info he provided I believe this to be a fake dial. Do you guys agree?


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi everyone!
> I have been looking for a alarm watch for a while now and this one looks really good to me. However the dial seems a bit to new to me compared to the case and to other ones I have seen online. Do you think it is real or might it be a fake/repainted dial?
> Thanks in advance!
> EDIT: Just read Geoff Adams thread about this watch and based on the info he provided I believe this to be a fake dial. Do you guys agree?


Yes, reproduction dial. Thanks to Paul for the confirmation on this one -- it had me wondering as well.

A couple things I notice about these newer reproduction dials:


The indices are more rounded/smoothed as compared to an authentic dial; look closely for sharp corners at the edges of the indices.
The last letter in "КИРОВА" is different; notice the shape of the "A". This is not a fool-proof indicator, but in general you're looking for an "A" with a triangular top, not smoothed.
These dials usually have a glittery/shimmery appearance, much colder in color tone than an authentic white matte dial which is not as reflective or sparkly.

Compare below against Geoff's dial.


----------



## ThePossumKing

Andrei Mihaila said:


> Hello guys! When I finally thought that Vostok dial couldn't give me any more surprises I found this one.I've never seen it again, do you think it's genuine or just a fantasy dial?
> 
> View attachment 9625762


Im gonna say that is a fake dial. It looks like the same design that they have been using on the Molnija pocket watch conversions that claim to be WWII Soviet pilot watches

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrei Mihaila

Thank God! My wish list is so BIG already!


----------



## Lucky_Luke

I bought this Poljot Sturmanskie yesterday. I show some photos about it. I think it was produced in Q3/1987. 
Is it legit or franken?
Thank you very much.


----------



## wekke

All seems very legit to me: 2nd generation (civil-latin) 3133 chrono (perestrojka-era), gold-coloured chronowheels, one-piece lever so > Q2-1986, what correspond with the date on the bridge,( this is Q3-87)
4 digit serial < 1989, brass balance-wheel
i think all hands are correct
new, thin style font on date-wheel > 1987
movement looks very clean to me, although i thought with date was only for military
(is the second-hand black or blue?)
TOP !

i'm shure more knowledged people will throw in their part

greetings from his brother:


----------



## Lucky_Luke

The second-hand is blue.



wekke said:


> All seems very legit to me: 2nd generation (civil-latin) 3133 chrono (perestrojka-era), gold-coloured chronowheels, one-piece lever so > Q2-1986, what correspond with the date on the bridge,( this is Q3-87)
> 4 digit serial < 1989, brass balance-wheel
> i think all hands are correct
> new, thin style font on date-wheel > 1987
> movement looks very clean to me, although i thought with date was only for military
> (is the second-hand black or blue?)
> TOP !
> 
> i'm shure more knowledged people will throw in their part
> 
> greetings from his brother:
> 
> View attachment 9651698


----------



## jetcash

on eBay: #311718555004









No movent pic - messaged seller
Sunrise K back w/ bird
Suspect crown

Tally-ho!

-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## pjd

Hi guys,

Does this look ok?


----------



## wekke

hallo pjd,
looks legit to me, 2nd gen.civil cyrillic (from ca 1982 till 1992)
- case should be chrome-plated
- i think your watch dates between 1982 and 1986
- gold coloured chronowheels > 1982
- 2-piece reset-hammer < Q2-1986
- 1st gen. date-wheel < 1987
- 4 digit sr n° < 1989
VERY NICE !!








greetings from his 1st gen brother


----------



## schnurrp

jetcash said:


> on eBay: #311718555004
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No movent pic - messaged seller
> Sunrise K back w/ bird
> Suspect crown
> 
> Tally-ho!
> 
> -brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


Legit.


----------



## jetcash

schnurrp said:


> Legit.


Sweet.

-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## pjd

wekke said:


> hallo pjd,
> looks legit to me, 2nd gen.civil cyrillic (from ca 1982 till 1992)
> - case should be chrome-plated
> - i think your watch dates between 1982 and 1986
> - gold coloured chronowheels > 1982
> - 2-piece reset-hammer < Q2-1986
> - 1st gen. date-wheel < 1987
> - 4 digit sr n° < 1989
> VERY NICE !!
> View attachment 9661906
> 
> 
> greetings from his 1st gen brother
> 
> View attachment 9661914
> View attachment 9661922


Thank you Wekke,
I am in two minds whether or not to buy it. I like it, but it is quite expensive!
Maybe I should hold out for a black dialled one..

I don't know!!


----------



## Moodey

Hey guys!

Went on vacation to Hungary a while ago and picked up this Poljot on a flee market, wasn't sure if it was legit but it looked fine. (Don't have any experience with Russian watches either) Hope you guys can tell me if it's legit or fake. Couldn't find a lookalike on the internet so I don't have my hopes up that high. 


imageshack .com/a/img921/7770/jQwG8u.jpg
imageshack .com/a/img922/2461/8BiBMM.jpg
imageshack .com/a/img921/7729/qKHpxv.jpg
imageshack .com/a/img922/7340/XxzSCW.jpg

(wasn't allowed to post pictures/links so I'll just do it this way.


----------



## dutchassasin

Will help a fellow Dutchy out, here are Moodey's pictures for viewing:


----------



## ThePossumKing

Ok...what the heck is this thing? Vintage Soviet Hight Quality Mechanical Wristwatch SLAVA 21 Jewels

Is it a chronograph or just a wannabe? Is it even a Slava?


----------



## ThePossumKing

Double post...why is WUS acting up on me all the time??


----------



## MattBrace

pjd said:


> View attachment 9660778
> View attachment 9660786
> 
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Does this look ok?


Chrono minute hand and large seconds sweep hand (the red ones) are both modern replacements, not original to the watch, unless the price is cheap skip it.


----------



## Moodey

Haha Thanks!


----------



## kev80e

ThePossumKing said:


> Ok...what the heck is this thing? Vintage Soviet Hight Quality Mechanical Wristwatch SLAVA 21 Jewels
> 
> Is it a chronograph or just a wannabe? Is it even a Slava?


I think it's a slava 2414 .
bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Slava 2414

Think them sub dials are just to look good. Could be wrong I often am


----------



## jetcash

How about this one? Love me some brass. Is this an older case back?









-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## coupeborgward

Not sure about this Komandirskie. It looks great but I have my suspicion.

What do yo think ?


----------



## ThePossumKing

coupeborgward said:


> Not sure about this Komandirskie. It looks great but I have my suspicion.
> 
> What do yo think ?
> 
> View attachment 9681474
> 
> 
> View attachment 9681482
> 
> 
> View attachment 9681498
> 
> 
> View attachment 9681506


Looks like a legitimate antimagnetic 2409 in an 020 case with a fake dial and fake hands. Same dial style that the Ukrainian 'masters' have been using for years on Molnija pocket watch conversions that they try and pass off as WWII Soviet pilot watches.

Just my .02


----------



## coupeborgward

Thank you for confirming this.



ThePossumKing said:


> Looks like a legitimate antimagnetic 2409 in an 020 case with a fake dial and fake hands. Same dial style that the Ukrainian 'masters' have been using for years on Molnija pocket watch conversions that they try and pass off as WWII Soviet pilot watches.
> 
> Just my .02


----------



## pjd

MattBrace said:


> Chrono minute hand and large seconds sweep hand (the red ones) are both modern replacements, not original to the watch, unless the price is cheap skip it.


Thank you so much Matt.
I didn't buy it.
The search continues.


----------



## jetcash

jetcash said:


> How about this one? Love me some brass. Is this an older case back?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


If I get this, I'm gonna mod it. I just want that case. When is that case back from?

-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hi everyone, 

I just bought this Poljot de Luxe impulsively because I wanted to have a Poljot in my collection. Therefore I did not really do any research like I would normally do. I already bought the watch but now I think this might be a reproduction dial. The 2209 movement is correct in my opinion. Any thoughts?


----------



## schnurrp

My opinion is that, perhaps, a Luch case (a picture of the back would be instructive), movement*, and hand set** has been given a new Poljot reproduction dial.

*by the time that movement with the adjustment for beat appeared production had been moved to Minsk.
**I don't think Poljot used those fat hands on their 2209s.


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi everyone,
> I just bought this Poljot de Luxe impulsively because I wanted to have a Poljot in my collection. Therefore I did not really do any research like I would normally do. I already bought the watch but now I think this might be a reproduction dial. The 2209 movement is correct in my opinion. Any thoughts?


The dial is definitely a reproduction, and the movement is probably not correct for a Poljot (the bridge markings are different and you would be looking for a studded balance).

I think schnurrp is right about the origins. The watch probably started out looking like one of these:









If you are seeking a true Poljot for your collection, the search must continue!


----------



## RidingDonkeys

Well, this just happened. Finding a decent Big Zero here in Moscow has been a fruitless search for the year and a half that I've lived here. Yesterday I was out at a market doing some early Christmas shopping when I stopped by a stall with a bunch of old watches and found this one. I popped the back open to find the correct 2609 movement. The case was in great shape, and the crystal has either been polished or replaced. The hands have obviously been replaced, but the dial "looks" original. However, for the ruble equivalent of $24, I jumped on it. So now to try and find some proper hands. Finding a donor Big Zero in bad condition should be easy enough, although I hate to kill one survivor to repair another.


----------



## jetcash

I tried to find donor hands for this one








And found this








With original box, band and paperwork, which immediately went in a drawer. From Pennsylvania, no less!

Keep looking, you'll get it!

-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## Jeroenskie

schnurrp said:


> My opinion is that, perhaps, a Luch case (a picture of the back would be instructive), movement*, and hand set** has been given a new Poljot reproduction dial.
> 
> *by the time that movement with the adjustment for beat appeared production had been moved to Minsk.
> **I don't think Poljot used those fat hands on their 2209s.


Thanks, that is what I was afraid of.. I will look further then for a real one!


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> Thanks, that is what I was afraid of.. I will look further then for a real one!


Nice looking case and hands so if the movement is running well you're getting some nice parts. All is not lost.


----------



## Rudakovski

Poljot Kosmos. My main concern is that it's not a screw on case back. Also if anyone has any suggestions for straps feel free to suggest.


----------



## Jeroenskie

schnurrp said:


> Nice looking case and hands so if the movement is running well you're getting some nice parts. All is not lost.


That is true, maybe I'll find a right Luch dial one day!

I feel like I'm spamming this thread lately but I have the watch fever at the moment and really want to buy another piece so I have one more question.;-)

I found this Zim for a pretty good price and the dial and case are in great shape. However I usually see those squarish cases on watches with Pobeda markings, also on mroatmans blog I saw a watch with this dial in a round case. What do you think, is this an original?


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> That is true, maybe I'll find a right Luch dial one day!
> 
> I feel like I'm spamming this thread lately but I have the watch fever at the moment and really want to buy another piece so I have one more question.;-)
> 
> I found this Zim for a pretty good price and the dial and case are in great shape. However I usually see those squarish cases on watches with Pobeda markings, also on mroatmans blog I saw a watch with this dial in a round case. What do you think, is this an original?


That one looks fine to me. Zim had many designs none of which can be authenticated by way of catalog but I don't see anything about that one that is out of place. It's in very good condition, probably from the mid to late '80s, maybe even early '90s.


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> I found this Zim for a pretty good price and the dial and case are in great shape. However I usually see those squarish cases on watches with Pobeda markings, also on mroatmans blog I saw a watch with this dial in a round case. What do you think, is this an original?


I agree with schnurrp. Mine may have a replaced case, or perhaps both case styles were produced. Looks great to me.


----------



## mroatman

Rudakovski said:


> Poljot Kosmos. My main concern is that it's not a screw on case back. Also if anyone has any suggestions for straps feel free to suggest.


All external parts appear 100% original to my eye. The snap-on case back was actually an earlier variation, leftover from the original Kosmos. It's rarer and, in my opinion, more desirable (despite the poorer water resistance, which is presumably why the screw-down case back was introduced shortly thereafter).

If you are comfortable with a worn dial, if the price is right, and if the movement is correct, I'd say you've found a good one.


----------



## Victorv

Hi guys, how are you? Anyone knows if my "new" Poljot Alarm is 100% original? I'm in doubt with the second hand, all the gold alarms i've seen have assembled gold second hand, and mine have black second hand. The rest seems original in my opininion.





and in my wrist



Regards


----------



## schnurrp

All looks good. Nice condition. From '92 catalog:


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> All looks good. Nice condition. From '92 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 9739810


Many thanks schnurrp, but i think that my watch is not exactly the same that your photo. In your watch all hands are black like the bezel, in mine all are glod (except the second hand) like the bezel. Anyway, thank you very much for your kind help.


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Many thanks schnurrp, but i think that my watch is not exactly the same that your photo. In your watch all hands are black like the bezel, in mine all are glod (except the second hand) like the bezel. Anyway, thank you very much for your kind help.


At the very least it's an authentic version of the one pictured in the catalog which does have lumed hands, in my opinion (see below) and other color differences could be attributed to the quality and lighting of the photo.









It's often the case that not all versions are included in the catalog. What you look for is authentic details, the more the better. Yours is identical in every way except for the color scheme which, as stated before, is hard to confirm with a photograph.


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> At the very least it's an authentic version of the one pictured in the catalog which does have lumed hands, in my opinion (see below) and other color differences could be attributed to the quality and lighting of the photo.
> 
> View attachment 9750266
> 
> 
> It's often the case that not all versions are included in the catalog. What you look for is authentic details, the more the better. Yours is identical in every way except for the color scheme which, as stated before, is hard to confirm with a photograph.


Many thanks schnurrp, it may be as you say, entirely true, there often aren't all variations of the same watch in the catalogs. It was also very common in the USSR assemble watches with all the trimmings avaiable. Anyway i love mine, and now for your photo i know all parts are original. Thank you very much, really.


----------



## nuvostokguy

*Here we go: my first Franken*

I've only seen this dial one other place and that's reply #1803 on this thread.

About a month ago I'd just gotten Vostok Fever, had just ordered a new Komandirskie (from zenitar and I've received it) and went looking for a "vintage" Amphibia on ebay. I searched "Vintage Vostok 2409" figuring if it had that movement it had to be vintage, right? The first one I came across I put in a bid and...won the ebay auction. It just came in a few days ago and here it is.

To be fair to the seller, he didn't describe it as "totally authentic" or "totally original". He just said something like "Russian military watch from the 1980s" or something like that.









Dimensions are: Case, flat side edge to flat side edge: 39mm. Lug to lug: 45mm. Thickness: 13mm. Strap width: 18mm! I know, I know, that's Komandirskie width but maybe a Komandirskie-style Amphibia in the '80s had 18mm straps.









It would seem to be a stainless steel case if it could have been brushed like this, either originally or badly later:









The crown looks well-used, even if this pic doesn't show it. Many a time a thumb and forefinger have wound this crown:









The back, well, it would seem it'd been worn a lot of years to wear down the center lettering. Whether or not this is the case back that was original to this watch, who knows:









And the money shot, the movement. I'd found a thread somewhere that was titled "And here's what the 2409 movement looks like". I compared my watch with the guy's pic of one and they sure seemed identical. What do you say, 2409?


----------



## mariomart

*Re: Here we go: my first Franken*



nuvostokguy said:


> I've only seen this dial one other place and that's reply #1803 on this thread.
> 
> About a month ago I'd just gotten Vostok Fever, had just ordered a new Komandirskie (from zenitar and I've received it) and went looking for a "vintage" Amphibia on ebay. I searched "Vintage Vostok 2409" figuring if it had that movement it had to be vintage, right? The first one I came across I put in a bid and...won the ebay auction. It just came in a few days ago and here it is.
> 
> To be fair to the seller, he didn't describe it as "totally authentic" or "totally original". He just said something like "Russian military watch from the 1980s" or something like that.
> 
> Dimensions are: Case, flat side edge to flat side edge: 39mm. Lug to lug: 45mm. Thickness: 13mm. Strap width: 18mm! I know, I know, that's Komandirskie width but maybe a Komandirskie-style Amphibia in the '80s had 18mm straps.
> 
> It would seem to be a stainless steel case if it could have been brushed like this, either originally or badly later:
> 
> The crown looks well-used, even if this pic doesn't show it. Many a time a thumb and forefinger have wound this crown:
> 
> The back, well, it would seem it'd been worn a lot of years to wear down the center lettering. Whether or not this is the case back that was original to this watch, who knows:
> 
> And the money shot, the movement. I'd found a thread somewhere that was titled "And here's what the 2409 movement looks like". I compared my watch with the guy's pic of one and they sure seemed identical. What do you say, 2409?


Genuine case, case back and crown.

The 2409 movement doesn't have any bridge stamped with either SU or RUS so not easy to date, but I can spy a Vostok "B" under the balance so it's probably a movement produced for the domestic market.

Unfortunately the dial, hands and bezel are all modern fakes (the "30" on the bezel has been printed upside down)

But if you like it wear it with a smile, that's all that matters.

I could be wrong


----------



## nuvostokguy

Shameless wrist shot:









What I liked about it was, no date so no worries about setting the correct date. The watch is bound to be correct at least twice a day, no matter what day it is. And it came with that Nato, heck that's $10 right there. And the color of the dial. How "vintage" or not it was never entered my mind. I've got it on right now and it looks right.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Here we go: my first Franken*



mariomart said:


> Unfortunately the dial, hands and bezel are all modern fakes (the "30" on the bezel has been printed upside down)
> 
> But if you like it wear it with a smile, that's all that matters.
> 
> I could be wrong


No, you're right, comrade.


----------



## alexir

Any opinions on this one? The lume dots seem 'off' and the hands seem 'too new' to my untrained eye... Thoughts?


----------



## alexir

alexir said:


> Any opinions on this one? The lume dots seem 'off' and the hands seem 'too new' to my untrained eye... Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 9757746


Hehe, was just reading the previous post about a fake bezel with the '30' being upside down, and noticed this one has the wrong '30' as well.. So unless Vostok ever produced these 'bad' bezels, seems like a fake - right?


----------



## cuthbert

alexir said:


> Hehe, was just reading the previous post about a fake bezel with the '30' being upside down, and noticed this one has the wrong '30' as well.. So unless Vostok ever produced these 'bad' bezels, seems like a fake - right?


Hands and bezel are modern.


----------



## pjd

I don't have long...
I have suspicions about the second hand...
Any thoughts about the authenticity of this watch?


----------



## nuvostokguy

alexir said:


> Hehe, was just reading the previous post about a fake bezel with the '30' being upside down, and noticed this one has the wrong '30' as well.. So unless Vostok ever produced these 'bad' bezels, seems like a fake - right?


When I saw that "upside down 30" on my Franken above, I just figured that was some vintage variation. It looks rightside up to me! How could some modern bezel maker/faker make the 30 in that position knowing it would immediately be labeled "fake" by knowing watch collectors. Unless it actually IS a not-fake variation. Dreaming now, right?


----------



## schnurrp

pjd said:


> View attachment 9772618
> 
> 
> I don't have long...
> I have suspicions about the second hand...
> Any thoughts about the authenticity of this watch?


Faded but good, in my opinion.

Antonov's: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNAMDmv6S1dded64a0G_RwS5TD7nFY4M5-ZcXDg


----------



## mroatman

nuvostokguy said:


> Dreaming now, right?


'Fraid so


----------



## Victorv

Hi guys, anyone knows if this Raketa are 100% original. I want to buy, but first i want to make sure that all are 100% original. The seller tells me that movement are NOS, but doesn't tell me anything of hands, dial case...










Many thanks


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Hi guys, anyone knows if this Raketa are 100% original. I want to buy, but first i want to make sure that all are 100% original. The seller tells me that movement are NOS, but doesn't tell me anything of hands, dial case...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks


I don't see any location of manufacture anywhere on the dial and the hour triangles are sharp-pointed.

Antinov's: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipO2l8gmHe_7Qs9wes-nilGIGWfmJMK2lUhluex-


----------



## mroatman

In other words, the dial is not original. Hands and case look fine. 

These aren't rare so I would keep looking.


----------



## jetcash

Victorv said:


> Hi guys, anyone knows if this Raketa are 100% original. I want to buy, but first i want to make sure that all are 100% original. The seller tells me that movement are NOS, but doesn't tell me anything of hands, dial case...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks


Where is this one? I have a dial that needs some hands. If the price is right.

-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## jetcash

Speaking of which, this dial looks a bit like fakery, to me. The points are pointy but not super pointy. And it does look weathered. Thoughts?









Does anyone have some extra big zero hands? Even the fake dial watches are too pricey to cannibalize. I have everything to rebuild my hammer & sickle zero, except those short little hands!

-brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


----------



## mroatman

jetcash said:


> Speaking of which, this dial looks a bit like fakery, to me. The points are pointy but not super pointy. And it does look weathered. Thoughts?
> Does anyone have some extra big zero hands? Even the fake dial watches are too pricey to cannibalize. I have everything to rebuild my hammer & sickle zero, except those short little hands!


Dial looks fine to me -- notice it is post-Soviet and appears to be some commemorative model.

Unfortunately, those thick and blunt hands are unique to the Big Zero, and therefore, not common. I would ask Diana/Mike:

https://www.etsy.com/shop/NewMainSpring?ref=profile_shopname#items 
https://www.etsy.com/shop/DiCandour?ref=pr_shop_more


----------



## dutchassasin

Sometimes you see a watch for sale on the bay and you think it will sell in no time. But this isnt the case with this 1987 stamped movement and all grey sturmanskie. Chrono sweep hand is obviously wrong, dial is perhaps touched up? Pure informational though, watch budget this year is almost empty.


----------



## S.H.

Dial paint flaking off, and I'd say replaced chrono hand and hammer but I could be mistaken.


----------



## Victorv

mroatman said:


> In other words, the dial is not original. Hands and case look fine.
> 
> These aren't rare so I would keep looking.





schnurrp said:


> I don't see any location of manufacture anywhere on the dial and the hour triangles are sharp-pointed.
> 
> Antinov's: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipO2l8gmHe_7Qs9wes-nilGIGWfmJMK2lUhluex-


Thank you very much for the help, finally I have not bought, the dial is aftermarket and case too.
Keep looking

Regards


----------



## Victorv

jetcash said:


> Where is this one? I have a dial that needs some hands. If the price is right.
> 
> -brought to you by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.


You have PM, i don't know if i can put the link here, if anyone knows if i can i wil put here

Regards


----------



## wekke

except for what S.H. already stated (and dial paint flaking of is very difficult to restore originally i think) ,
also the grey not look dark enough but this can be because use of (flash)light.
the watch seems mostly OK to me
here is mine to compare













greetings


----------



## pjd

What is the consensus of this?

I "think" it looks ok....

(I'm trying to absorb as many points from you guys as I can!)


----------



## Sagehomme

Picked up locally, legit configuration or not? It's a 420 Amfibian Case, Orca Caseback, 2416B Auto movement, Hunter dial. Haven't seen it before and can't find much about the dial online. Someone with more expertise able to help me out?


----------



## schnurrp

Sagehomme said:


> Picked up locally, legit configuration or not? It's a 420 Amfibian Case, Orca Caseback, 2416B Auto movement, Hunter dial. Haven't seen it before and can't find much about the dial online. Someone with more expertise able to help me out?
> View attachment 9798954


Interesting dial but unlikely it came out of Chistopol with no printing of the trade mark. Certainly not found in any catalogs.


----------



## mroatman

Interested to hear thoughts on this one. Max and I have scrutinized it for the past week or so -- it's a head-scratcher.

Rare Vintage WOSTOK PRECISION Men&apos;s watch from 1960&apos;s years "The Russian Zenith" | eBay

Pros: 
- Printing is excellent
- Font is consistent with early export models
- Stamped case-back would be difficult/expensive to fake
- Hands and movement are appropriate for a Vostok Precision

Cons:
- Unknown dial variation
- Unknown case type
- No minute markers on a "Precision"??

If it weren't so expensive, I would have bought it for the novelty, if nothing else. It's an interesting one, and I lean toward authentic, perhaps for the French/Italian/Portuguese/Spanish market.

Thoughts?


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Interested to hear thoughts on this one. Max and I have scrutinized it for the past week or so -- it's a head-scratcher.
> 
> Rare Vintage WOSTOK PRECISION Men's watch from 1960's years "The Russian Zenith" | eBay
> 
> Pros:
> - Printing is excellent
> - Font is consistent with early export models
> - Stamped case-back would be difficult/expensive to fake
> - Hands and movement are appropriate for a Vostok Precision
> 
> Cons:
> - Unknown dial variation
> - Unknown case type
> - No minute markers on a "Precision"??
> 
> If it weren't so expensive, I would have bought it for the novelty, if nothing else. It's an interesting one, and I lean toward authentic, perhaps for the French/Italian/Portuguese/Spanish market.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 9800842


I had similar thoughts. "URSS" on the back with French language back material description. I think it's legit but, as you say, hard to prove. I probably would have bought it if the case was actually 35.5 mm as advertised but it only measured the usual 34mm off the screen. Nice condition but the design is just "so-so" for me, also.


----------



## Sagehomme

Very good point there. The Hunter doesn't look very Russian too. Probably aftermarket dial then? I've had others say that the dial is legit though, and often referred to as 'The Hunter' Dial. There is indeed no vostok logo, markings, no cccp, so would more likely say aftermarket then genuine. The watch itself is in very good condition, so i'm happy with it anyways. Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

Sagehomme said:


> Very good point there. The Hunter doesn't look very Russian too. Probably aftermarket dial then? I've had others say that the dial is legit though, and often referred to as 'The Hunter' Dial. There is indeed no vostok logo, markings, no cccp, so would more likely say aftermarket then genuine. The watch itself is in very good condition, so i'm happy with it anyways. Thanks!


You have jogged my memory, comrade, and now I seem to recall this dial surfacing before, although in what combination of case, etc. is authentic, who knows? Searching "Vostok hunter dial" I found these two. The first one is for sale on ebay now:

















Nicknamed the "k9" dial.


----------



## S.H.

pjd said:


> What is the consensus of this?
> 
> I "think" it looks ok....
> 
> (I'm trying to absorb as many points from you guys as I can!)
> 
> <poljot chrono image>


Looks ok from this side, a late ussr made civilian chrome 3133. Red paint probably touched up.


----------



## wekke

looks ok to me,
second generation cyrillic civilian,
probably movement has already 1-piece lever, 
i think from 1987 or younger (has already thin style font on date wheel)
a pic of the movement should tell us more !


----------



## Ham2

All hail the Exacta Polvoslavaketa!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sagehomme

schnurrp said:


> You have jogged my memory, comrade, and now I seem to recall this dial surfacing before, although in what combination of case, etc. is authentic, who knows? Searching "Vostok hunter dial" I found these two. {pic.. [pic] Nicknamed the "k9" dial.


Hmm,I found that first one yes, didn't see the second one yet. 3 different cases. I got myself another vostok mystery then. Thanks for the input & search ! Appreciate it!


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hi everyone, 

I can get this Poljot 3133 for €170 and I wanted to know what you guys think. The top chrono button is pretty corroded but besides that it seems to be in good condition. Do you think it is all original? Any idea what year it might be from, or more important, is it from soviet times? Finally, do you think it is worth €170 (+- $185)? It is in full working order.

Thanks!


----------



## Straight_time

Only a couple of years ago I would have suggested you to pass on, as you could have surely found something better for that price; nowadays it seems a bargain, so maybe you should grab it while you can....








Looks fully correct to my eyes (hopefully others will corroborate my opinion) and yes, it's still a product of USSR years, I'd say 1987/1991 (there's no way to narrow the period, even by serial number).

On a good note, if you get bored by the corroded pushers you can find some original replacements for little money on the 'bay right now -or else, for a more radical solution, NOS original chromed cases (complete with everything: acrylic crystal, bezel, pushers) are also relatively easy to find and still affordable. 
But of course, if you like its vintage and gently aged look, you might also prefer to keep it that way. ;-)


----------



## Rudakovski

The Case back and crown don't look original to me other than that everything else looks fine. Also the seller labeled this watch as an Orbita, don't know if that is correct?



















Edit: the pictures i post always come out awfully large, should i re-size them before posting in the future?


----------



## schnurrp

I think you have it right. "Orbita" was the name First Moscow gave this watch when these 2415 autos first came out. Soon thereafter First Moscow changed to branding everything as "Poljot". The "Orbitas" are pretty rare but mechanically identical, as far as I know. Some collectors just call all such 29 jewel autos with no date "Orbita" even when branded Poljot and with a different dial of which yours is one of several different.


----------



## mroatman

Rudakovski said:


> The Case back and crown don't look original to me other than that everything else looks fine. Also the seller labeled this watch as an Orbita, don't know if that is correct?
> Edit: the pictures i post always come out awfully large, should i re-size them before posting in the future?


Correct, the crown and case-back are replacements. Otherwise, a beautiful example. If the price is right, I'd say you found a good one.

I wouldn't worry about the photo sizes.

-----

Edit: As you likely discovered, the original crown is a bit more dome-shaped and streamlined.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5814459628293639858&oid=113098239036073221216


----------



## wekke

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I can get this Poljot 3133 for €170 and I wanted to know what you guys think. The top chrono button is pretty corroded but besides that it seems to be in good condition. Do you think it is all original? Any idea what year it might be from, or more important, is it from soviet times? Finally, do you think it is worth €170 (+- $185)? It is in full working order.
> 
> Thanks!


i want to confirm what Straight_time says, only narrow down the period a bit,as by 1989 the 5 digit serial number saw its entry,and by Q3-1990 the 'SU' did appear
so ca 1989-1990
Voor de rest lijkt het mij ok!


----------



## wekke

sorry, can delete
double post


----------



## SinanjuStein

I'm 95% sure the dial isn't a reproduction, but it's worth checking it here.
What do you guys think?


----------



## schnurrp

Authentic

https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNFvrlFZWUm-ciFpvS3i8VfjSo1uGleUfIcVx5M


----------



## SinanjuStein

schnurrp said:


> Authentic
> 
> https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNFvrlFZWUm-ciFpvS3i8VfjSo1uGleUfIcVx5M


neato.

Now it's time to see if the seller is willing to budge off his price.


----------



## pjd

S.H. said:


> Looks ok from this side, a late ussr made civilian chrome 3133. Red paint probably touched up.


Thanks for the info.

I think I will pass on it.
I would prefer not to have repainted hands.
I have seen a couple more in my preferred black dial. I will post a couple of pics before making my decision.


----------



## pjd

What are the thoughts on this? I think it is post USSR but that doesn't really worry me. I am more interested in the condition an originality.


----------



## pjd

This I really like. Again, I think it is post USSR, but I'm not worried too much about this.
It says it is NOS. But who knows.
Does it look genuine? I think it looks good. It is over budget though...


----------



## wekke

hello comrad pjd,
i think they are both USSR pieces, second generation cyrillic civilian (1981 till ca 1992)
they have both black second hands, not the blue one from later issues
the first movement looks ok to me, i would put it between 1987 (start 1-piece lever) and 1989 (start 5-digit serial)
the second watch is for shure NOS (probably more expensive also ?) but original i think regarding the lumen, pics of the movement should be great (maybe still 2-piece lever
regarding the font of the date-wheel ?)
greetings


----------



## slls

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I have a black dialed one for sale.

(@wekke: you saw my service pics at the Dutch watch forum)


----------



## wekke

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Yes Hans,
very nice watch, but i thought pjd was looking for a cyrillic version, if not ....

this one is nice too:


----------



## dmnc

Is this a fantasy dial or genuine? And should it be in that case?

I really like the Raketa guilloche dials so if it's from the same source that would be nice.

Movement is 2609 as you'd expect.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## coupeborgward

dmnc said:


> Is this a fantasy dial or genuine? And should it be in that case?
> 
> I really like the Raketa guilloche dials so if it's from the same source that would be nice.
> 
> Movement is 2609 as you'd expect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it's ok


----------



## mroatman

dmnc said:


> Is this a fantasy dial or genuine? And should it be in that case?
> I really like the Raketa guilloche dials so if it's from the same source that would be nice.
> Movement is 2609 as you'd expect.


Dial is original. The case is harder to say.

Maybe it should have a decorative bezel.

















Or maybe not.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Dial is original. The case is harder to say.
> 
> Maybe it should have a decorative bezel.
> 
> View attachment 9866610
> 
> 
> View attachment 9866618
> 
> 
> Or maybe not.
> 
> View attachment 9866626


Also for sale at this time:


----------



## Chascomm

schnurrp said:


> I had similar thoughts. "URSS" on the back with French language back material description. I think it's legit but, as you say, hard to prove. I probably would have bought it if the case was actually 35.5 mm as advertised but it only measured the usual 34mm off the screen. Nice condition but the design is just "so-so" for me, also.


There's something about the back view of the watch that strikes me as not Soviet in origin. Something about the shape of the case back. And yet it looks very much of its era. My guess is that it _might_ be a French-cased watch for the western European market. If so then it would probably be the oldest example of that sort of thing ever seen on this forum.


----------



## stadiou

All of the 2809's made in Chistopol that I have seen had a screw down back - that looks to be a snap back. Just my thoughts.


----------



## mroatman

stadiou said:


> All of the 2809's made in Chistopol that I have seen had a screw down back - that looks to be a snap back. Just my thoughts.


Yes, the previously-unknown case type and dial design are precisely what is puzzling here. But just because we haven't seen it before doesn't necessarily make it inauthentic.


----------



## pjd

What is everyone's opinion of this? It looks good to me???


----------



## mokhalaf

Hi,

I need some advice on this watch please. I bought this new from one of the recommended sellers on eBay but I'm not sure about the color of the dial. All the watches with the exact same reference have a deeper blue dial all over. Mine goes from blue at the top to silverish/blue at the bottom and I haven't seen this variation in pictures online before. Is this a known variation? Apart from that the watch is solid and keeps good time. I'm very happy with it just want to make sure it's right. It's reference 811289, thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

I am not an expert on the many models of these Vostoks but since everything else you show about that one appears as an authentic variation it's most unlikely that someone somehow refinished the dial.

So, authentic, in my opinion.


----------



## schnurrp

Oops!


----------



## gekos

pjd said:


> View attachment 9906322
> View attachment 9906338
> View attachment 9906354
> 
> 
> What is everyone's opinion of this? It looks good to me???


Early movement some wheels on the chrono seconds gear looks like has been replaced but nothing alarming to worry - IMHO.


----------



## mariomart

Here's an interesting one for you.

A genuine vintage 119 Amphibia case with a Komandirskie caseback !!!

As we all know the Amphibia and Komandirskie casebacks are different diameters, but it seems that somehow an Amphibia automatic blank has been stamped with a Komandirskie die.

My guess is that someone at the factory got bored, or possibly it was a special order. Either way It's got to be a bit of a rarity.


----------



## wekke

Hello pjd,
sorry for not look earlier but i had some sad family matters (mam died)
This seems to me an all OK first generation cyrillic civil sturmanskie,
datable following polmax in the period 1976 till 1985
this is the first issue of the civilian sturmanskie, and esspecialy in black not found everyday,
early movement, 2-piece lever, old date-wheel fonts, chrome-plated case, light coloured sealing rubber
probably can be dated to ca 1981-82, as this is the transition period between silver and gold-coloured chronewheels
if you want to buy the watch try to make an offer that suits you, maybe you're lucky !!
greetings,
wekke (werner)


----------



## Jaspers

Hi all,

Recently I've started collecting vintage Russian watches, and have purchased and sold a few through Catawiki and eBay. Now, I've come across an interesting Raketa watch--a model I haven't seen anywhere else. What do you guys think: legit or Franken?

Thanks, and I look forwards to hearing from you!

-Jasper


----------



## Coug76

mariomart said:


> Here's an interesting one for you.
> 
> A genuine vintage 937 Amphibia case with a Komandirskie caseback !!!
> 
> As we all know the Amphibia and Komandirskie casebacks are different diameters, but it seems that somehow an Amphibia automatic blank has been stamped with a Komandirskie die.
> 
> My guess is that someone at the factory got bored, or possibly it was a special order. Either way It's got to be a bit of a rarity.
> 
> View attachment 9936306


Does it have the second alignment tab on the opposite side of the case? Also, that looks more like a 119 case to my eye. 937 is the "Neptune" case format.

Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


----------



## mariomart

Coug76 said:


> Does it have the second alignment tab on the opposite side of the case? Also, that looks more like a 119 case to my eye. 937 is the "Neptune" case format.
> 
> Hastily spouted for your befuddlement


Oops, you're correct, I had Neptune on the brain ... I'll edit my post.

Yes, there are tabs on both sides.


----------



## alexir

I love modern SE Neptunes and started thinking about a vintage one. Here are two different ones, both advertised as NOS. Would really appreciate advice regarding authenticity and condition of both.


----------



## dutchassasin

Alexir, as authentic as they get! Except for number 1 is missing the indexes. Amil (asap31) has two root beer colour without bracelet for $285- a piece. The original bracelet is crap anyway! The green and blue versions seem to be more rare.

Here is mine:


----------



## rbsfan

Is this watch legit? 

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/qsUAAOSwCGVX2mUo/$_57.JPG


----------



## rbsfan

There's a picture of the movement!

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/2vcAAOSwPCVX2mUg/$_57.JPG


----------



## Trenk

Hi guys, it would mean very much to me if you could help me with identifying is this Zlatoust Vodolaz legit or later franken/replica? Thank you!


----------



## arogle1stus

Of course it's a good idea!
Watches that are undeniably "Frankens".
I've seen some Frankens that could adorn
my watch box tho.

X Traindriver Art


----------



## schnurrp

Jaspers said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Recently I've started collecting vintage Russian watches, and have purchased and sold a few through Catawiki and eBay. Now, I've come across an interesting Raketa watch--a model I haven't seen anywhere else. What do you guys think: legit or Franken?
> 
> Thanks, and I look forwards to hearing from you!
> 
> -Jasper
> 
> View attachment 9941762
> View attachment 9941770
> View attachment 9941778
> 
> View attachment 9941786
> View attachment 9941794


I have never seen a Raketa like this. If it's authentic, it's a very obscure model. There are some authentic Raketa elements present, the dial handset and movement are Raketa although the movement should be a 2614. The case looks like some other unusual products from Raketa and it's possibly authentic but the dial with that black surround doesn't make sense to me as a design. I would have to say it's franken but I would be happy to be proven wrong. Nothing like it in the catalogs.


----------



## dutchassasin

Trenk thats a tourist version. Originals had a plain caseback and a plain black dial with digits. The one you have is too ornate to be an original USSR divers version. But be careful there are alot of reproductions made its really hard to find original issue one.


----------



## alexir

dutchassasin said:


> Alexir, as authentic as they get! Amil (asap31) has two root beer colour without bracelet for $285- a piece. The original bracelet is crap anyway! The green and blue versions seem to be more rare.
> 
> Here is mine:


Thanks!!

Just noticed these are two different designs of the dial - one with applied indexes and one with more plain lume dots. Never knew old Neptunes had these variations. Any ideas on history, which predates which and which is more rare/valuable?


----------



## dutchassasin

alexir said:


> Thanks!!
> 
> Just noticed these are two different designs of the dial - one with applied indexes and one with more plain lume dots. Never knew old Neptunes had these variations. Any ideas on history, which predates which and which is more rare/valuable?


Im sorry i overlooked that. Number 1 is missing the indexes and probably because the glass has been replaced. The indexes are on the ring that seats the crystal. Dont buy that one as you cant get a replacement part!

These are post soviet neptunes, probably 2000's. Get one with the neptune caseback, later on the factory changed to normal ones.
They are so expensive because production period is small because the demand for them was quite low at that time.


----------



## svorkoetter

dutchassasin said:


> Alexir, as authentic as they get! Except for number 1 is missing the indexes.


It's missing the chapter ring too, and seems to have a different dial, since the indices and lume dots on the dial are right up against the rehaut, where the chapter ring and applied indices ought to be. So at the very least, they're not the same model of watch.


----------



## Jaspers

schnurrp said:


> I have never seen a Raketa like this. If it's authentic, it's a very obscure model. There are some authentic Raketa elements present, the dial handset and movement are Raketa although the movement should be a 2614. The case looks like some other unusual products from Raketa and it's possibly authentic but the dial with that black surround doesn't make sense to me as a design. I would have to say it's franken but I would be happy to be proven wrong. Nothing like it in the catalogs.


Thanks! The black circle surrounding the dial made me suspicious. Probably a Raketa dial in a different case.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## alexir

svorkoetter said:


> It's missing the chapter ring too, and seems to have a different dial, since the indices and lume dots on the dial are right up against the rehaut, where the chapter ring and applied indices ought to be. So at the very least, they're not the same model of watch.


Thanks! Order placed for the other one (with the applied indexes)


----------



## rbsfan

Is this watch legit or franken?


























NICE VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE MILITARY Soviet watch ZAKAZ MO USSR Ministry of Defence | eBay


----------



## mariomart

rbsfan said:


> Is this watch legit or franken?
> 
> NICE VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE MILITARY Soviet watch ZAKAZ MO USSR Ministry of Defence | eBay


Looks legit to me. Nice vintage Komandirskie with original hands, 2414 unsigned movement, chromed case and stainless steel case back.


----------



## Ham2

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



svorkoetter said:


> It's missing the chapter ring too, and seems to have a different dial, since the indices and lume dots on the dial are right up against the rehaut, where the chapter ring and applied indices ought to be. So at the very least, they're not the same model of watch.


Agreed that there are 2 different designs of the Neptune dials (look at position of lume dots relative to the date) - it can be argued that the dial variant that cannot be paired with the chapter ring and applied indices is rarer 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alexir

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Ham2 said:


> Agreed that there are 2 different designs of the Neptune dials (look at position of lume dots relative to the date) - it can be argued that the dial variant that cannot be paired with the chapter ring and applied indices is rarer
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, that's what I was thinking as well, as both seem genuine. I went for the one with the indexes - between rarer and nicer I usually go with nicer


----------



## rbsfan

Thanks for the fast answer. I've another I'm interested in. Is this watch legit or franken? Does anybody have an idea at which time it was build?


















SLAVA AUTOMATiC 27Jewels EXCELENT LUX Men&apos;s Watch Vintage Soviet Raketa Vostok | eBay


----------



## mariomart

rbsfan said:


> Thanks for the fast answer. I've another I'm interested in. Is this watch legit or franken? Does anybody have an idea at which time it was build?
> 
> SLAVA AUTOMATiC 27Jewels EXCELENT LUX Men&apos;s Watch Vintage Soviet Raketa Vostok | eBay


Slava's aren't my "thing" so I'll have to leave it to other members of the peanut gallery to chime in. Good luck


----------



## schnurrp

rbsfan said:


> Thanks for the fast answer. I've another I'm interested in. Is this watch legit or franken? Does anybody have an idea at which time it was build?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SLAVA AUTOMATiC 27Jewels EXCELENT LUX Men's Watch Vintage Soviet Raketa Vostok | eBay


This from a '93 Slava catalog is similar to my eye: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNysTSckVkA1gcWd7F6J_r3hpOdM7FbwAKCaGNw


----------



## wekke

hello comrads,
my knowledge about Komandirskie is not so big, never the less the original ones do interest me
i'm watching this one and think its original (but who am I), checking the internet not much came up ,
and searching the Watchuseek forums only a few small threads (last one from 2013) occured with the same watch
looking pictures on internet not give me many response too (3 pictures comparable)

so i hope to get some info from the experts, hope its not to much franken, ...
what i already find out, but correct me please if wrong:
3aka3 watch ( written with big 3 in the front)
movement i not know, not have picture from it
casetype ?
dated somewhere in the end '70s-start'80s
early amphibian bezel, but possible for komandirskie
15-30-45 bezel is part of 1st production
lumen seems to me original (discoloured) on indices and hands,
hands original to , also secondhand lumen seems discoloured from age
not straight but sloped caseback, old case?
dial seems nice slightly crakled patina to me, the inner dialcircle is slightly brownish
serialnumber on the back
people with the same watch or any info (good or bad) i'm very happy with,
because finding info on this one is not easy, should be more easy with a tank or submarine on it,


























greetings,
wekke


----------



## schnurrp

I believe this is it from a '90 Vostok catalog. I don't know why the star is so dim. Should be white like yours according to the description. Only dive-style komandirskie I can recall without numbers.

https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipM1ZT1rIrhG3atRRbqiKZ48hZNc7-jsB6W3PNvw









Bracelet pictured is pretty easy to get if you want to complete the package. I believe the one you have is a replacement.

Not in Michelle's collection!


----------



## Rigid90sMTB

Well I already bought it but I still want to see what you guys think anyway:
i.imgur.com/NUiq8wm.jpg
i.imgur.com/qMry69A.jpg
i.imgur.com/AHWgBf3.jpg

This is my first vintage watch so I didn't know exactly what to look for. Only paid a little over $20 for it so if it's not completely original it's no big deal.


----------



## CierzoZgz

Rigid90sMTB said:


> Well I already bought it but I still want to see what you guys think anyway:
> i.imgur.com/NUiq8wm.jpg
> i.imgur.com/qMry69A.jpg
> i.imgur.com/AHWgBf3.jpg
> 
> This is my first vintage watch so I didn't know exactly what to look for. Only paid a little over $20 for it so if it's not completely original it's no big deal.


It looks OK for me. I have one of these (butchered by now)
I'm not sure 100% of the seconds hand, but movement (signed under balance wheel), case and dial are legit.


----------



## Rigid90sMTB

CierzoZgz said:


> It looks OK for me. I have one of these (butchered by now)
> I'm not sure 100% of the seconds hand, but movement (signed under balance wheel), case and dial are legit.


Great, thank you!


----------



## Straight_time

schnurrp said:


> I believe this is it from a '90 Vostok catalog. I don't know why the star is so dim. Should be white like yours according to the description. Only dive-style komandirskie I can recall without numbers.
> 
> https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipM1ZT1rIrhG3atRRbqiKZ48hZNc7-jsB6W3PNvw
> 
> View attachment 9990282
> 
> 
> Bracelet pictured is pretty easy to get if you want to complete the package. I believe the one you have is a replacement.
> 
> Not in Michelle's collection!


Description is slightly misleading: there's only a thin painted white line on indexes, but they and the star are actually nickel-plated and mirror-finished just like the hands.

So, depending on how the light and the dial itself reflect on them, they may look from whitish, to silver, to gold/bronze (the seller I bought my NOS one from, even referred to it as "Golden Star"). 
One of the nicest Vostoks ever, by my taste.

















PS- papers of my example are dated August 1st 1988, it is possible that by 1990 at the factory they decided to switch to a different bezel style.


----------



## wekke

Thank you and comrad Schnurrp for your contribution,







VEEEEERYYYYYYYY !! lovely watch comrad Straight_time
my bezel look slightly different from the one one the catalog as one red side is more comb-like (soms say its like an early amphibian)
hope the watch is fully original, you think this is ?, lumen etc..... (i not like relumed)
anything known about the sloped caseback against the more encountered straight one ?
what about serial numbering, is it as with first sturmanskie 3133 ? (less important as they renew counting each year or so)
thank you already very much !
greetings,
wekke


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hey guys! 

Do you think this one is legit? The dial looks a little too nice to me so I'm suspicious;-)


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> Description is slightly misleading: there's only a thin painted white line on indexes, but they and the star are actually nickel-plated and mirror-finished just like the hands.
> 
> So, depending on how the light and the dial itself reflect on them, they may look from whitish, to silver, to gold/bronze (the seller I bought my NOS one from, even referred to it as "Golden Star").
> One of the nicest Vostoks ever, by my taste.
> 
> View attachment 9994330
> 
> 
> View attachment 9994338
> 
> 
> PS- papers of my example are dated August 1st 1988, it is possible that by 1990 at the factory they decided to switch to a different bezel style.


Very interesting! That's a nice one Straight_time. Yes, I believe both bezels are authentic since we have your convincing NOS example to look at. Pretty rare, I reckon, if it's not found in Michelle's collection.

wekke's star is reflecting light, I guess.


----------



## coupeborgward

Jeroenskie said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Do you think this one is legit? The dial looks a little too nice to me so I'm suspicious;-)


movement and case look ok. agree dial looks very clean


schnurrp said:


> Very interesting! That's a nice one Straight_time. Yes, I believe both bezels are authentic since we have your convincing NOS example to look at. Pretty rare, I reckon, if it's not found in Michelle's collection.
> 
> wekke's star is reflecting light, I guess.


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Do you think this one is legit? The dial looks a little too nice to me so I'm suspicious;-)


Looks fine. There are a lot of those out there and quite a few in mint to near mint condition. I've never seen that dial/bezel reproduced before. May not be original to the case, though, which has seen a lot of sweaty wrist time.


----------



## AGAPITO

Hello. What do you think about this ISKRA pocket watch? Movement hands and case are legit or not? Thank you in advance.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Hello. What do you think about this ISKRA pocket watch? Movement hands and case are legit or not? Thank you in advance.


Yes, this one appears correct to me.


----------



## wekke

schnurrp said:


> Very interesting! That's a nice one Straight_time. Yes, I believe both bezels are authentic since we have your convincing NOS example to look at. Pretty rare, I reckon, if it's not found in Michelle's collection.
> 
> wekke's star is reflecting light, I guess.


yes, comrad Schnurrp, my star (from my watch) is reflecting light
just arrived today, i like it and and still am convinced its original Zakaz status, and mid'80ties age
its possible they showed up in a catalog years after they where only available for government purposes (and never catalogued for public before)
its a very difficult watch to take everything in one picture though , the chrome star and indices, the brownish middle cirkle,
i give it a try


----------



## Bolum

What do you guys think of this Poljot alarm watch? I can't find any information online on this particular model. Franken or not? Is the case made of plastic as it looks like? Do those cool indices and hands have lume or is it just regular paint?
Also: do you guys find it appealing or is it just that I have a weird taste? 
Thanks in advance!!


----------



## mroatman

Bolum said:


> What do you guys think of this Poljot alarm watch? I can't find any information online on this particular model. Franken or not? Is the case made of plastic as it looks like? Do those cool indices and hands have lume or is it just regular paint?
> Also: do you guys find it appealing or is it just that I have a weird taste?
> Thanks in advance!!


Looks fine to me, in excellent condition, with the exception (perhaps) of the crowns. It's difficult for me to tell. They appear to be the correct size/shape, but the color mismatch is strange. I believe the case is some type of anodized metal, not plastic. The hands and dial should be lumed.

Here is mine and another on eBay for comparison.

Definitely a funky and appealing watch


----------



## Bolum

Thanks for your reply Dashiell!
Should have used your collection's website as a reference like I've done a couple of times before. 
I'm not buying the watch in the end since I've seen some youtube videos of these Poljot alarm watches and their annoying buzzing ring sound doesn't really convince me.
I was kinda expecting beautiful bell rings along the lines of an A. Lange und Söhne Zeitwerk lol


mroatman said:


> Looks fine to me, in excellent condition, with the exception (perhaps) of the crowns. It's difficult for me to tell. They appear to be the correct size/shape, but the color mismatch is strange. I believe the case is some type of anodized metal, not plastic. The hands and dial should be lumed.
> 
> Here is mine and another on eBay for comparison.
> 
> Definitely a funky and appealing watch


----------



## mroatman

Bolum said:


> ...their annoying buzzing ring sound doesn't really convince me.
> I was kinda expecting beautiful bell rings along the lines of an A. Lange und Söhne Zeitwerk lol


Haha, not quite Carol of the Bells, no 

But Soviet engineering at work -- it sure is hard to sleep through one of those buzzing alarms on your wrist or nightstand!


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Looks fine to me, in excellent condition, with the exception (perhaps) of the crowns. It's difficult for me to tell. They appear to be the correct size/shape, but the color mismatch is strange. I believe the case is some type of anodized metal, not plastic. The hands and dial should be lumed.
> 
> Here is mine and another on eBay for comparison.
> 
> Definitely a funky and appealing watch


Back in the olden days these were highly prized by those restoring Poljot amphibians missing the meatball second hand. Crowns look okay to me. Seller evidently set the hands and forgot to push the bottom crown back in, an oversight I have made more than once.


----------



## UDIVER

Hey guys!

Quick question, Does this Amphibian look legit? I don't see these cases very often.

They state that its a 40mm watch.

What do you think?

thanks!


----------



## mariomart

UDIVER said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Quick question, I've never seen this one before and I was wondering how legit it is?
> 
> They state that its a 40mm watch.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> thanks!


All looks good to me. Made in the late 80's to very early 90's. Here's mine.


----------



## UDIVER

Great! I just noticed that it was an Amphibian!

Would you say its a 40mm case?


----------



## mariomart

This should help.

NOT an Amphibian, it has a Komandirskie case-back, but I'm not sure if it can be classified as a Komandirskie as the dial is not marked as such. This one is from my "junk" box due to the case being banged up.

View attachment 10061610


View attachment 10061618


----------



## schnurrp

Physically similar one with a different dial and black hands from '92 catalog. If an amphibian can have a "komandirskie" dial, then a komandirskie can have a non-"komandirskie" dial. Back, chrome-plated brass case, and screw-down crown equals komandirskie in my book.


----------



## herdingwetcats

There is a small bit dedicated following for dials that have painted (like the hunting scene here); some painters are very good, others are just gauche. Also, I think I have seen a similar scene on the outside case of a Moljnina or two. Personally, I like this painting. It's all subjective, of course. I wouldn't't consider it Franken, myself, as dial painting is a recognized art. BTW, does anyone else remember that amazing little rush of pornographic hand painted dials earlier this year??


----------



## herdingwetcats

Dear Comrade, I posted a reply to your hand painted dial below; somehow it wound up on Nov. 29, this thread. Cheers!


----------



## CierzoZgz

My "912" mount other version of 2414A movement. Are both contemporary or have been replaced one of these?










And my other doubt... The dial seems like...fried? (lack of English resources, sorry, look yourself)
I wonder if this dial could be repainted or directly fake (or simply damaged). Not the chapter ring, which looks Ok for me.










Thanks!


----------



## ThePossumKing

CierzoZgz said:


> My "912" mount other version of 2414A movement. Are both contemporary or have been replaced one of these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And my other doubt... The dial seems like...fried? (lack of English resources, sorry, look yourself)
> I wonder if this dial could be repainted or directly fake (or simply damaged). Not the chapter ring, which looks Ok for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!


That all looks original and legit to me. I have a number of dials that are oxidizing like that


----------



## wekke

your opinion on this one is welcome please

it seems to have some issues with chrono, resets perfect but stops after 2 or 3 min
and movement seems much older than dial (pre-sekonda), but then i can search for an older dial with younger movement watch ?



























thanks already comrads,
ps: small question: with these dials i see sometimes, sometimes not numbers '6' and '14' mentioned in the telemeter scale-circles, is this due to year, random or franken ?
see this dial for comparaison


----------



## Straight_time

Could you please post a movement shot, so that we can see what do you mean with "much older than dial"?
Remember that often S/Ns aren't a reliable method to determine a watch's age, better have a look at the factory stamp and other details.

About the dial itself, well.... hell, congrats. 
As far as we know, until today there are no fakes/counterfeits dials of the "paddle hands generation", so you _simply_ (!) spotted another odd feature on a genuine piece.
I'll have to look deeper in my files to check whether the lack of 6 & 14 is associated to a particular style already known and "catalogued", or if your discovery means that some styles do actually exist in both variations.
Should the latter be the case, don't expect yourself to be remembered in Comrade Ham2's prayers.....


----------



## wekke

as requested, i have only this picture from internet, as said, 'movement older', not dial
watch is not yet with me,
thanks already very much for your info !!
what i can see , cyrillic, factory stamp 'diamond' shape, NO '3017' and low number 05445, please correct me !!!














thanks so much already for this hopefull info


----------



## Straight_time

You were perfectly right.
Movement is actually much older than dial, it has all the features one would expect to find on a pre-1964 production: diamond-shaped 1MWF logo, jewels count in cyrillic, lack of the "3017" marking, and another mechanical detail (a part whose design would eventually been modified). 
All this speaks for a perfectly consistent S/N, if I had to make an educated guess I'd say it could date back as early as 1961-62.

Altough therefore "technically" a franken, I think that a possible logical explanation could be that the watch was still working good in middle/late Seventies, and the owner decided to improve its esthetics swapping a worn out dial with brand new replacements which were available at the time (it's worth noticing that there is no "mixing" of parts, also all the 5 hands are consistent with the dial). 

Had it been an early Poljot made for export, the Sekonda spares could make sense. Did you happen to buy it from behind the former Iron Curtain or from a Western Country?
Anyway, if you think of bringing it back to its (supposedly) original look, with such a low S/N IMHO you should go for a plain dial (=no telemeter scale).


----------



## wekke

Straight_time,
thank you thousand times for your info,(ps: what is this mechanical details part please)
actually its coming from the UK, and i made the move after using the search button with Watchuseek and reading everything available about strela,
normally i'm into USSR 3133's ( as far as my little knowledge goes), but having a strela i could not resist, maybe now i'm obliged finding a suitable old dial and a sekonda movement,







greetings,
wekke


----------



## wekke

Straight_time said:


> Could you please post a movement shot, so that we can see what do you mean with "much older than dial"?
> Remember that often S/Ns aren't a reliable method to determine a watch's age, better have a look at the factory stamp and other details.
> 
> About the dial itself, well.... hell, congrats.
> Should the latter be the case, don't expect yourself to be remembered in Comrade Ham2's prayers.....
> View attachment 10065442


why not !!
this opens again a lot of collecting perspectives


----------



## Ham2

Straight_time said:


> Could you please post a movement shot, so that we can see what do you mean with "much older than dial"?
> Remember that often S/Ns aren't a reliable method to determine a watch's age, better have a look at the factory stamp and other details.
> 
> About the dial itself, well.... hell, congrats.
> As far as we know, until today there are no fakes/counterfeits dials of the "paddle hands generation", so you _simply_ (!) spotted another odd feature on a genuine piece.
> I'll have to look deeper in my files to check whether the lack of 6 & 14 is associated to a particular style already known and "catalogued", or if your discovery means that some styles do actually exist in both variations.
> Should the latter be the case, don't expect yourself to be remembered in Comrade Ham2's prayers.....
> View attachment 10065442


Very funny. Comrade.

Oddly enough, my OCD for strelas doesn't extend to the black paddle hand sekondas. Weird, eh?

The movement and model do seem a bit disconnected. The case style is correct for that model (the case has seen better days), and there are plenty of genuine examples of Cyrillic stamped movements paired with Latin script dials (the converse does not apply in my mind). But the early 1MWF diamond stamp suggests to me that the movement is a transplant. Just my opinion. But if the price is right....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wekke

what would be right price for this one then !


----------



## mroatman

wekke said:


> what would be right price for this one then !


Unfortunately, only you can decide that.

I would buy it for $10. Heck, $20!


----------



## dutchassasin

Does anyone know something about this pobeda? i came across it on the bay. Looks like some kind military or factory watch that can be mounted and removed to a surface with lugs.


----------



## wekke

mroatman said:


> Unfortunately, only you can decide that.
> 
> I would buy it for $10. Heck, $20!


sorry, to much for me !!


----------



## alexir

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Any ideas what this thing could be?


----------



## mariomart

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



alexir said:


> Any ideas what this thing could be?


There is only one possibility, someone has removed the dial feet and not bothered with dial dots and as such the dial can move freely independent of the movement. Other than that it's just a regular vintage Amphibia from the 80's.


----------



## rcapiloto

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I see another possibility: someone took a movement and dial from a Komandirskie with a 033 case and put it in a 420 case... (or just the dial, which has a different feet position to align with a 2 o'clock crown). One example:

infantry-watches10

However I have never seen that dial on a 033 case!

Regards,

RC


----------



## pelikanisto

Hi all, 
do you know what is the year of production of this Raketa? Also, is it original?


----------



## mariomart

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



rcapiloto said:


> I see another possibility: someone took a movement and dial from a Komandirskie with a 033 case and put it in a 420 case... (or just the dial, which has a different feet position to align with a 2 o'clock crown). One example:
> 
> infantry-watches10
> 
> However I have never seen that dial on a 033 case!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> RC


I considered this initially, however I noticed that the dial had come from an "Anti Magnetic" watch so it ruled out Komandirskie's , which I'm pretty certain never had an Anti Magnetic feature. The other thing is that the stem is not aligned with the 2 o'clock on the dial.


----------



## ThePossumKing

Looks like someone took a standard Amphibia dial and case and used a 2 o'clock movement to assemble that monstrosity 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

pelikanisto said:


> Hi all,
> do you know what is the year of production of this Raketa? Also, is it original?


Everything looks fine to me. The production date was probably in the 1980s.

Here's a 1983 catalog excerpt, as well as mine, for comparison.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Everything looks fine to me. The production date was probably in the 1980s.
> 
> Here's a 1983 catalog excerpt, as well as mine, for comparison.
> 
> View attachment 10109602
> 
> 
> View attachment 10109610


Also this one for export from another '83 catalog with the correct "Raketa":


----------



## AGAPITO

Hi. I recently bought a Slava watch that I know almost nothing about. It looks like it is a manual winding watch and has 26 jewels.

I do not know if the watch is original or authentic, and what time it was made. Although as it seems to have the factory brand stamped in the movement, I would say it was manufactured in the 70's or early 80's.

I would appreciate any comments on the quality, movement and originality of this watch. I'm not very familiar with Slava watches. Thank you in advance.


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> Hi. I recently bought a Slava watch that I know almost nothing about. It looks like it is a manual winding watch and has 26 jewels.
> 
> I do not know if the watch is original or authentic, and what time it was made. Although as it seems to have the factory brand stamped in the movement, I would say it was manufactured in the 70's or early 80's.
> 
> I would appreciate any comments on the quality, movement and originality of this watch. I'm not very familiar with Slava watches. Thank you in advance.
> 
> View attachment 10146562
> 
> 
> View attachment 10146570
> 
> 
> View attachment 10146578
> 
> 
> View attachment 10146586


authentic '79: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipOejXzQpeE4AQwdkaP6IMy9AjCTvcRSImEZ6rA8


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> authentic '79: https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipOejXzQpeE4AQwdkaP6IMy9AjCTvcRSImEZ6rA8


Maybe this has been discussed before, but.....yellow arrow !?


----------



## CierzoZgz

mroatman said:


> Maybe this has been discussed before, but.....yellow arrow !?
> 
> View attachment 10152178


Wow, eagle eye!

It is a date disc from a "fridge" Slava as seen at the next page of same catalogue.










But... Why was mounted in the wrong model? A lack of the correct disc don't seems probable... A 'too-much-happy' employed? Who knows...


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Maybe this has been discussed before, but.....yellow arrow !?
> 
> View attachment 10152178


Interesting! Can't be on purpose. Maybe a new dial "prototype" was hurried into existence so that it could be included in the catalog and someone reached into the wrong parts bin while assembling.


----------



## mroatman

CierzoZgz said:


> Wow, eagle eye!
> It is a date disc from a "fridge" Slava as seen at the next page of same catalogue.
> But...Why was mounted in the wrong model? A lack of the correct disc don't seems probable... A 'too-much-happy' employed? Who knows...





schnurrp said:


> Interesting! Can't be on purpose. Maybe a new dial "prototype" was hurried into existence so that it could be included in the catalog and someone reached into the wrong parts bin while assembling.


I take it as more proof that the catalogs aren't *always* right.


----------



## mroatman

How about this one? I seem to remember it being discussed but cannot locate any relevant threads.


----------



## Dimy

ugh... what the...


----------



## Danilao

I bought this watch (at a reasonable price) because I really like the dial, but I have many doubts about its legitimacy.

Photos are from seller and I do not know what it has inside (no info about the movement, I hope is not a quartz...).

The dial looks really well done, with a nice texture in relief.

What do you think about?


----------



## mroatman

Danilao said:


> I bought this watch (at a reasonable price) because I really like the dial, but I have many doubts about its legitimacy.
> Photos are from seller and I do not know what it has inside (no info about the movement, I hope is not a quartz...).
> The dial looks really well done, with a nice texture in relief.
> What do you think about?


I completely agree: a very nice dial, quite well-done, but with many doubts about its legitimacy. I hope for a follow up once the watch arrives


----------



## mroatman

Has anyone seen a Poljot Stadium with a faceted crystal before? I would automatically assume it's replaced, but what else would this crystal fit?


----------



## Kittycat

Hello, first post here 

Do any of you recognise this watch? Is it genuine? It looks attractive but I don't know anything about recognising Soviet originals.


----------



## sonics

Kittycat said:


> Hello, first post here
> 
> Do any of you recognise this watch? Is it genuine? It looks attractive but I don't know anything about recognising Soviet originals.
> View attachment 10244082
> View attachment 10244098
> View attachment 10244106


I think that's the raketa world traveler

Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Has anyone seen a Poljot Stadium with a faceted crystal before? I would automatically assume it's replaced, but what else would this crystal fit?
> 
> View attachment 10214202
> 
> 
> View attachment 10214210
> 
> 
> View attachment 10214218


Never seen one like that, Dash. Don't recall ever seeing any Poljot with such a _crystal._


----------



## schnurrp

sonics said:


> I think that's the raketa world traveler
> 
> Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


Yes, looks authentic but with obvious condition problems. Dial should be uniformly finished.


----------



## mroatman

Kittycat said:


> Hello, first post here
> Do any of you recognise this watch? Is it genuine? It looks attractive but I don't know anything about recognising Soviet originals.


Welcome, Kitty!

That watch is commonly referred to as the Raketa "World Time". It has a rotating bezel with major cities written in Cyrillic to track time differences around the globe.

Unfortunately, yours seems to have a dial in poor condition. Here is what the watch probably looked like in better days.









I would keep looking.


----------



## Arizone

Bit of an odd one, no? Komandirskie antimagnetic? No shield pictured but I think that's what it says.

Rare Vintage Vostok Amphibian Brown Submarine Sub Manual Wind Diver Russian | eBay


----------



## Arizone

Bit of an odd one, no? Komandirskie antimagnetic? No shield pictured but I think that's what it says.

Rare Vintage Vostok Amphibian Brown Submarine Sub Manual Wind Diver Russian


----------



## ThePossumKing

Arizone said:


> Bit of an odd one, no? Komandirskie antimagnetic? No shield pictured but I think that's what it says.
> 
> Rare Vintage Vostok Amphibian Brown Submarine Sub Manual Wind Diver Russian


Very strange. I have quite a few of those dials without the same markings or the submarine. They all came in non-'Dirskie plain cases and are all marked 'Vostok' and '17 Jewels' (in Cyrillic, of course). But the markings are all the same off-white as the arrow indicies on my dials. This one's markings are a different color than the indices. Something just doesn't smell right to me.

Of course, I may be well off base and someone may post catalog pages showing this exact dial...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ham2

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Welcome, Kitty!
> 
> That watch is commonly referred to as the Raketa "World Time". It has a rotating bezel with major cities written in Cyrillic to track time differences around the globe.
> 
> Unfortunately, yours seems to have a dial in poor condition and a replaced movement. The original movement would be a 19-jewel 2623, which is a 24-hour movement. Without a 24-hour movement, the functionality is severely diminished as the watch can no longer serve as a "World Time" piece.
> 
> Here is what the watch probably looked like in better days.
> 
> View attachment 10246938
> 
> 
> I would keep looking.


The movement is correct - this model was never a 24 hour movement (is there a day date 24 hour movement?)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Ham2 said:


> The movement is correct - this model was never a 24 hour movement (is there a day date 24 hour movement?)


You are so right.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5698170052272217026&oid=113098239036073221216









If I'm not mistaken, you must use the 24-hour track along the perimeter of the dial to use the "World Time" function.

Thanks for the correction!


----------



## ThePossumKing

An original Slava Diver is on the top of my grail list, but this just doesn't look right to me. Any thoughts?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/272489469903

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ham2

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> You are so right.
> 
> https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5698170052272217026&oid=113098239036073221216
> 
> View attachment 10258722
> 
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, you must use the 24-hour track along the perimeter of the dial to use the "World Time" function.
> 
> Thanks for the correction!


I think this model requires the owner be able to do simple arithmetic and count cities forward or backwards on the bezel

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

ThePossumKing said:


> An original Slava Diver is on the top of my grail list, but this just doesn't look right to me. Any thoughts?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272489469903


Go with your gut.

Notice the dial says "Made in Russia" -- this, to me, indicates a Kapitan dial (often used for Slava Amphibia restoration/frankenization). Russ briefly covers this topic here. The paperwork, meanwhile, states December 10th, 1990 -- before the fall of the USSR, if I remember my history correctly. The case back also lacks the traditional Slava Amphibia design. This makes sense, since the original Slava Amphibia movement was a 2414 (manual). A different case back may have been required to provide the needed height for the automatic winding rotor.

I am wide open to correction, but in my opinion, morozow's watch looks like a very nice composite. Compare the dials below:


----------



## dutchassasin

ThePossumKing said:


> An original Slava Diver is on the top of my grail list, but this just doesn't look right to me. Any thoughts?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272489469903
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Im no expert but it has at least a wrong dial and plain caseback


----------



## Ham2

mroatman said:


> Go with your gut.
> 
> Notice the dial says "Made in Russia" -- this, to me, indicates a Kapitan dial (often used for Slava Amphibia restoration/frankenization). Russ briefly covers this topic here. The paperwork, meanwhile, states December 10th, 1990 -- before the fall of the USSR, if I remember my history correctly. The case back also lacks the traditional Slava Amphibia design. This makes sense, since the original Slava Amphibia movement was a 2414 (manual). A different case back may have been required to provide the needed height for the automatic winding rotor.
> 
> I am wide open to correction, but in my opinion, morozow's watch looks like a very nice composite. Compare the dials below:
> 
> View attachment 10259274


Just to confuse things further from a confusing period of time: a Russian Slava amphibia with 2416 and amfibia stamped caseback.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/watch-space-3667594.html

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

Ham2 said:


> Just to confuse things further from a confusing period of time: a Russian Slava amphibia with 2416 and amfibia stamped caseback.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/watch-space-3667594.html


Yours looks the same to me, only with an interesting repair(?) on the minute hand and the correct back.

This makes sense when you think about it. Original Slava Amphibia dials are usually completely butchered and beyond repair. Replacements are hard to find, if not impossible. An easier way to get a presentable piece is to use a similar post-Soviet Kapitan dial for the restoration. A Kapitan dial fits the 24xx movement easily with no modification required, and the visual similarities to the original Amphibian are strong. But then, you've got a problem: the Kapitan dial says "АВТОМАТ" prominently across the dial. What is one to do? Another easy fix: just swap the 2414 for a 2416 and you've got an automatic movement to match the dial.

I am not aware of any authentic post-Soviet Slava Amphibians with automatic movement. But again, I'm wide open to correction if someone cares to educate me.

FWIW, the only other authentic Slava Amphibian I've ever seen for sale was about double that price -- and morozow is typically *not* a cheap seller. If he had a fully original piece, I'd expect his asking price would be north of $1k.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Ham2 said:


> I think this model requires the owner be able to do simple arithmetic and count cities forward or backwards on the bezel
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From phd some years ago:









The presence of the small white perimeter numbers is necessary for authenticity. This watch is often seen with other Raketa 2628 dials substituted.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> From phd some years ago:
> 
> View attachment 10264738
> 
> 
> The presence of the small white perimeter numbers is necessary for authenticity. This watch is often seen with other Raketa 2628 dials substituted.


Thanks for the clarification. I'd say this watch would have been a good candidate for a 24-hour movement. Perhaps the designers deemed the day/date functions too important to sacrifice.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I'd say this watch would have been a good candidate for a 24-hour movement. Perhaps the designers deemed the day/date functions too important to sacrifice.


No particular reason the Raketa 2623 movement couldn't receive a properly geared day/date mechanism like the 2628, that I know of. Probably not enough demand to support such a mechanism, though.


----------



## imatabor

This caught my eye:
















It is described as a ZIM...what is a ZIM?


----------



## mroatman

imatabor said:


> This caught my eye:
> It is described as a ZIM...what is a ZIM?


This is a classic fantasy watch. The dial and hands are fake, catering to what many westerners think a Soviet dial "should" look like. They do not match any known Soviet example that I am aware of. The movement is an authentic 1980s ZIM caliber 2602.

ZIM (ЗИМ) is an acronym for Maslennikov Watch Factory (Завод им. Масленникова). It was a factory based in Samara. It closed after the fall of the USSR and is no longer in operation.

I recommend you wait for something authentic.


----------



## coupeborgward

mroatman said:


> This is a classic fantasy watch.....


but it looks really good. One of the better ones I would say


----------



## mroatman

The dial states Авиаразведка, or "Air Reconnaissance". If this watch is marketed as an early military piece, with a price point to match, I'd say that's the very definition of deception. 

Course, I won't stop anyone from buying it. I just think it's important to know what you're paying for and promoting before buying.


----------



## imatabor

mroatman said:


> This is a classic fantasy watch. The dial and hands are fake, catering to what many westerners think a Soviet dial "should" look like.


Well it did appeal to this Westerner. :-d. They are a tricky bunch aren't they.



> ZIM (ЗИМ) is an acronym for Maslennikov Watch Factory (Завод им. Масленникова). It was a factory based in Samara. It closed after the fall of the USSR and is no longer in operation.


Thanks for the information


----------



## imatabor

mroatman said:


> The dial states Авиаразведка, or "Air Reconnaissance". If this watch is marketed as an early military piece, with a price point to match, I'd say that's the very definition of deception.


No such promise and the price wasn't too high.



> Course, I won't stop anyone from buying it. I just think it's important to know what you're paying for and promoting before buying.


Glad the folks here are looking out for us. Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I'd say this watch would have been a good candidate for a 24-hour movement.


Raketa thought so, too:


----------



## imatabor

Watching this one:



















The back of the case by the lower crown looks weird, is it painted over or am I just seeing things?


----------



## mroatman

imatabor said:


> Watching this one:
> The back of the case by the lower crown looks weird, is it painted over or am I just seeing things?


Hm, that is strange. But I think it's just the lighting playing tricks on us.

The case on this Raketa is made of gold-plated brass. This particular watch is showing signs of the gold plating wearing away, most especially in that area around the crown. (This makes sense as the crown is wound daily, so there is a lot of human contact / abrasive rubbing in that spot over time.) The part where the gold is rubbed away reveals the brass substrate beneath. Brass has a gold-ish color, so if the lighting is just right, it could fool you into looking like the surrounding gold plating. Since the light source seems to be aimed directly at that worn area, I think it's just an illusion.

To illustrate, here is a Slava I have with gold plating that is quite worn. But unless you view under high magnification and with the lighting just right, you can hardly see where the gold ends and the brass begins.

















P.S. -- The crowns are replaced.


----------



## Kittycat

mroatman said:


> Welcome, Kitty!
> 
> That watch is commonly referred to as the Raketa "World Time". It has a rotating bezel with major cities written in Cyrillic to track time differences around the globe.
> 
> Unfortunately, yours seems to have a dial in poor condition. Here is what the watch probably looked like in better days.
> 
> I would keep looking.


Ah, thank you, much appreciated as well as the other's posts. I didn't realise the speckling on the dial wasn't by design.


----------



## mroatman

This is pretty amazing


----------



## imatabor

mroatman said:


> This is pretty amazing
> 
> View attachment 10294802


Now I'm hungry!

Last one, I promise....(for now at least)














Two things, One the crowns are shallow and two what is the SU and other markings on the movement. What size bands to these take? 18mm?


----------



## Dimy

imatabor said:


> Two things, One the crowns are shallow and two what is the SU and other markings on the movement. What size bands to these take? 18mm?


* crowns are the correct ones
* SU = Soviet Union, short for USSR; 2628H is the movement model.
* 18 mm.


----------



## Dimy

how's about this one? Legit or franken?


----------



## dutchassasin

Dimy said:


> how's about this one? Legit or franken?


i think this one of these quartz watches that came with a magazine. better stay away!


----------



## imatabor

Dimy said:


> * crowns are the correct ones
> * SU = Soviet Union, short for USSR; 2628H is the movement model.
> * 18 mm.


 Thanks for the information, It just strikes me that the crowns are barely showing compared to the photo from Mroatman's collection.


----------



## mroatman

imatabor said:


> Thanks for the information, It just strikes me that the crowns are barely showing compared to the photo from Mroatman's collection.


It could just be photo distortion. I intentionally zoom slightly (~2x) to minimize lens barrel distortion, but this requires an extra step. My guess is most sellers just fire up their cameras and shoot away at close range, which makes objects closer to the camera (the crystal and bezel) appear larger than those further from the lens. It creates the appearance of a "bulging" watch. See here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/wrist-shots-can-misleading-1039113.html

I think the crowns are fine. The whole watch looks great to me, actually, but do note this is a post-Soviet model (the dial reads "Made in Russia").


----------



## mroatman

Dimy said:


> how's about this one? Legit or franken?


Definitely not a legit Soviet watch, though it could be a legit modern copy. Was it advertised as a modern reissue?


----------



## imatabor

Dimy said:


> * SU = Soviet Union, short for USSR; 2628H is the movement model.





mroatman said:


> but do note this is a post-Soviet model (the dial reads "Made in Russia").


If it is post Soviet (made in Russia) (Notice that the year dial is 1990s) then why does the Movement say SU (Soviet Union )? Is it mixed matched? .


----------



## mroatman

imatabor said:


> If it is post Soviet (made in Russia) (Notice that the year dial is 1990s) then why does the Movement say SU (Soviet Union )? Is it mixed matched? .


I don't study Russian watches, so I'm honestly not sure what's considered authentic on post-Soviet pieces. But I believe it's fine. As I recall, leftover Soviet movements or movement parts were used for many years after the dissolution of the USSR.


----------



## Dimy

imatabor said:


> If it is post Soviet (made in Russia) (Notice that the year dial is 1990s) then why does the Movement say SU (Soviet Union )? Is it mixed matched? .


Not necessarily mix-matched. it could be due to: a) the original movement made prior to 1990, this happens quite often with watches around this production time; b) replaced spring barrel with one from earlier production. anyway, the watch is legit.


----------



## Dimy

mroatman said:


> Definitely not a legit Soviet watch, though it could be a legit modern copy. Was it advertised as a modern reissue?


The description is quite non-informative. Literally only this: _Very nice replica of officer watch with stones, was cleaned, running exactly.used but very good condition. 
_ I am not interested that much to ask the seller for more info or movement pictures. Posted here just in case that somebody already run through something similar.


----------



## imatabor

mroatman said:


> I don't study Russian watches, so I'm honestly not sure what's considered authentic on post-Soviet pieces. But I believe it's fine. As I recall, leftover Soviet movements or movement parts were used for many years after the dissolution of the USSR.





Dimy said:


> Not necessarily mix-matched. it could be due to: a) the original movement made prior to 1990, this happens quite often with watches around this production time; b) replaced spring barrel with one from earlier production. anyway, the watch is legit.


 Thanks for all the help.

I think I'm going to break my one watch rule.


----------



## davidomega

Hey guys!
Both these watches look authentic?


----------



## dutchassasin

Im not an super expert but my gut feeling says the first one is recased as i have not seen this dial before in a 470 case. Second one looks good. But lets see what the true experts have to say.


----------



## Arizone

dutchassasin said:


> Im not an super expert but my gut feeling says the first one is recased as i have not seen this dial before in a 470 case. Second one looks good. But lets see what the true experts have to say.


I concur with the above.


----------



## mariomart

dutchassasin said:


> Im not an super expert but my gut feeling says the first one is recased as i have not seen this dial before in a 470 case. Second one looks good. But lets see what the true experts have to say.


I agree, however the top case is a 320 case, the lower is a 470 case


----------



## mariomart

The closest dial I could find to match yours is shown in the 1993 Vostok Catalog.

I appears in a Komandirskie case, however this photo appears to be of an Anti-Magnetic with a 21 Jewel 2416b movement. No doubt they also produced the same dial for the 2414a 17 Jewel movement.


----------



## schnurrp

mariomart said:


> The closest dial I could find to match yours is shown in the 1993 Vostok Catalog.
> 
> I appears in a Komandirskie case, however this photo appears to be of an Anti-Magnetic with a 21 Jewel 2416b movement. No doubt they also produced the same dial for the 2414a 17 Jewel movement.
> 
> View attachment 10315002


That configuration is known as the "generalskie" I believe. There is one such with the scuba dude dial, also.

Date window (2414) dial never appeared in rhe 320 or 370 amphibian case.


----------



## redwrwf

Really want to buy a Poljot Sturmanskie/Okean but I'm worried I'll get a fake/franken. Can anyone tell me if any of the following are fake or fraken?

I believe this is a sturmanskie, it seems like everything is in order but I'm not well educated on these watches














And this is the Okean. What stood out as being off about this one is the arrow on the internal bezel is not filled (just an outline of an arrow), the lume on the hour and minute hands does not go right to the end, and the two sub dial hands seem off as well. Again I'm not too sure, I know there have been a few reissues over the years.


----------



## dutchassasin

okean is total bogus. fake dial, fake hands. do not buy!


----------



## redwrwf

Any idea where I can find a genuine vintage Okean, and what a fair price would be? eBay has very few legit Poljot watches right now.


----------



## Arizone

redwrwf said:


> Any idea where I can find a genuine vintage Okean, and what a fair price would be? eBay has very few legit Poljot watches right now.


The first thing to look for is an Okean caseback. That eliminates most listings. Polmax3133 is a good resource for checking other details.


----------



## schnurrp

I agree with the others re: the Okean. The other chrono, while not a sturmanski, appears to be an authentic early civil Poljot 3133 chronometer. I believe the small minute hand should be blue and I can't tell if it is from the picture. It's not in pristine condition but the wear of all parts seems to match, a sign of authenticity sometimes. The sturmanskies were special military-issue pieces with stainless steel cases and pushers and special backs and dials.

Look here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/guide-determining-age-originality-poljot-3133-chronograph-599503.html


----------



## davidomega

Hi again guys! Does this one looks to be all original? And is USD$80.00 worth it? Thanks!


----------



## Arizone

davidomega said:


> Hi again guys! Does this one looks to be all original? And is USD$80.00 worth it? Thanks!


Looks like it. I would only be concerned because the lume on the minute hand looks to be falling off, and one good knock might set it loose requiring removal and replacement if desired. The price is a little high in general for standard Vostoks, but it's in great shape otherwise and comes with that unique strap I'm guessing.


----------



## mroatman

davidomega said:


> Does this one looks to be all original? And is USD$80.00 worth it?


Yes, and no.

Strap is a "courtesy band" I've received on several of my purchases; very poorly-constructed one-piece fabric strap that's about as thin as they come. Worth all of 25¢ if I had to guess. It would still work, but I don't think it helps justify the $80 price tag.


----------



## MattBrace

not the correct bezel either


----------



## ThePossumKing

davidomega said:


> Hi again guys! Does this one looks to be all original? And is USD$80.00 worth it? Thanks!
> View attachment 10332730
> View attachment 10332746
> View attachment 10332754
> View attachment 10332762
> View attachment 10332786


That dial is extremely hard to find in such good condition though. Most of the ones you'll find are faded out and cracked

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dutchassasin

Hmm ive seen this watch before on the forums and i just cant find it. There is a plane on the sub dial.









Edit found one, Comrade Lucidor's example:









i think we can conclude its a dud. Dial is slightly different and shape of the lugs do not match.
Asked the seller for some better pictures.


----------



## Rudakovski

Anyone heard about a 2446B movement in a regular Vostok amphibian or Komandirskie automatic case (420 or 921, not specified). Also what does a 2446 movement do differently from the 2416B and other Vostok movement?


----------



## Ham2

Rudakovski said:


> Anyone heard about a 2446B movement in a regular Vostok amphibian or Komandirskie automatic case (420 or 921, not specified). Also what does a 2446 movement do differently from the 2416B and other Vostok movement?


It looks like a fuzzy picture artifact - that looks to be stamped 2416b

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rudakovski

No, it looks like it says 2446 to me, also the seller also claims that it is a rare 2446 movement in it. unless you mean the picture is deliberately manipulated?


----------



## ThePossumKing

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Rudakovski said:


> Anyone heard about a 2446B movement in a regular Vostok amphibian or Komandirskie automatic case (420 or 921, not specified). Also what does a 2446 movement do differently from the 2416B and other Vostok movement?


Thats a standard 2416b movement. The stamp reads the same. Just looks like 2446 due to a fuzzy picture

AFAIK, the 2446 has an extra 24hr hand and wouldn't fit in a standard Vostok case due to the extra hand height

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

Rudakovski said:


> Anyone heard about a 2446B movement in a regular Vostok amphibian or Komandirskie automatic case (420 or 921, not specified). Also what does a 2446 movement do differently from the 2416B and other Vostok movement?


Definitely just a regular 2416 b . I used a graphics utility to enhance the photo and it definitely says 2416 . The seller is a putz if he's telling you otherwise.


----------



## Ham2

If this is the watch you are refering to , it's just a 2416b. As possum-k said, 2446 has a GMT function (see Vostok Europe)









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Rudakovski

I suppose that make sense, thanks for the information.
And this was the listing: Rare VOSTOK WATCH cal.2446 | eBay


----------



## mroatman

Rudakovski said:


> I suppose that make sense, thanks for the information.
> And this was the listing: Rare VOSTOK WATCH cal.2446 | eBay


If the seller would send you a clear photo of the paperwork included in the box, it would put to rest any uncertainty around the caliber.

I am in agreement with the others: this is a typo on the seller's part.


----------



## sonics

What do you think about that watch. Is it worthful?

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----------



## dutchassasin

sonics said:


> What do you think about that watch. Is it worthful?
> 
> Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


'
Its the rarer cousin of the Vostok radio room namely the "Vostok radio room generalskie". 
Looks original to me, if the price is good go for it!


----------



## sonics

Bought it for 35,00 €

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----------



## dutchassasin

sonics said:


> Bought it for 35,00 €
> 
> Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


Lucky catch, thats the one from ebay.de right? i was planning on bidding until i saw they only ship to Germany and then it got pulled.

Oh well, enjoy your new Generalskie!


----------



## sonics

Yes, it was on the bay. 

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----------



## Stevecru

Hi Everybody,
I just received my first Soviet watch in the mail yesterday. I am hoping that people will comment on it.
I really like it (despite the fact that it stopped running) and I am curious about any information regarding this watch, no matter how elementary the information may be, as I am new to collecting.
I am curious about any known history...
What percent original is it...
Does it contain radium...
Or any other thoughts or comments you may have.
Thank you in advance for any assistance.


----------



## Ham2

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

That is a beauty. A 1st State Watch Factory (Kirova, Moscow) Type 1. 15 jewel high quality movement from 4Q 1940, so made prior to the start of the Great Patriotic War. The serial number on the dial indicates military issue. And the numbers have very old radium containing lume. The hands though look repainted but it is difficult to assess since their lume is different than the lume on the dial. The hand-set is the desirable cathedral style. Very nice and highly collectible/sought. One of our Type 1 experts will likely fill you in on additional details.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## slls

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Also read this thread in the "articles" section. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=3300858


----------



## Lucky_Luke

[HELP] What is the Age and Originality of a Poljot OKEAH cal. 3133 Chronograph.

Dear all,

The seller sent me some photos of Poljot OKEAH. This watch is old. I see the dial carefully but I can't determine the age and originality of this watch. 
I see Poljot Crown was printed on main plate. 
So, is it legit? and when was it producted? 70s or 80s?

Can you help me?

* Jan 8, 2017 updated:


----------



## slls

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I'm not 100% sure if the case is all stainless steel but I doubt it is not in this case. It has a beautiful genuine dial. This watch was produced +/- 1981 according to Polmax3133 guide.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



slls said:


> I'm not 100% sure if the case is all stainless steel but I doubt it is not in this case. It has a beautiful genuine dial. This watch was produced +/- 1981 according to Polmax3133 guide.


I use the color method to establish ss cases and pushers/crowns which, unfortunately, relies on the lighting of the photos to some extent. In this instance the first photo shows a "warm" case with "cold" pushers/crowns and the second and third pictures show warm pushers/crowns (match back exactly) and "cold" case. Taken together I think I would be willing to take a chance as long as the sales statement is that it's all stainless so a return could be made. It's usually obvious once you have it in your hands.

Very nice dial and hands although the small minute counter hand has lost some color.


----------



## kev80e

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

BY


schnurrp said:


> I use the color method to establish ss cases and pushers/crowns which, unfortunately, relies on the lighting of the photos to some extent. In this instance the first photo shows a "warm" case with "cold" pushers/crowns and the second and third pictures show warm pushers/crowns (match back exactly) and "cold" case. Taken together I think I would be willing to take a chance as long as the sales statement is that it's all stainless so a return could be made. It's usually obvious once you have it in your hands.
> 
> Very nice dial and hands although the small minute counter hand has lost some color.


Often wondered how some people can tell a stainless steel case from a chrome one. I always have to depend on any signs of wear.Thanks Schnurrp.


----------



## Lucky_Luke

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> I use the color method to establish ss cases and pushers/crowns which, unfortunately, relies on the lighting of the photos to some extent. In this instance the first photo shows a "warm" case with "cold" pushers/crowns and the second and third pictures show warm pushers/crowns (match back exactly) and "cold" case. Taken together I think I would be willing to take a chance as long as the sales statement is that it's all stainless so a return could be made. It's usually obvious once you have it in your hands.
> 
> Very nice dial and hands although the small minute counter hand has lost some color.





slls said:


> I'm not 100% sure if the case is all stainless steel but I doubt it is not in this case. It has a beautiful genuine dial. This watch was produced +/- 1981 according to Polmax3133 guide.


Thank Mrschnurrp and Mr slls,

What is about the movment? Poljot crown was printed on the main plate.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Anyone ever seen this Raketa dial before? It looks quite nice, but unfamiliar.









I'm also curious about his 24-hour variant. Is the lack of a black bezel a sure-tell sign of a replacement?









Thanks!!


----------



## dutchassasin

mroatman, the raketa 24hr looks legit to me. Check out the 1984 catalog on the Raketa website. 
http://www.raketa.com/catalog-1984


----------



## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> mroatman, the raketa 24hr looks legit to me. Check out the 1984 catalog on the Raketa website.
> ÐšÐ°Ñ‚Ð°Ð»Ð¾Ð³ Ð ÑƒÑ�Ñ�ÐºÐ¸Ñ&#8230; Ð§Ð°Ñ�Ð¾Ð² «Ð Ð°ÐºÐµÑ‚Ð°» 1984 Ð³Ð¾Ð´ | Ð ÑƒÑ�Ñ�ÐºÐ¸Ðµ Ñ‡Ð°Ñ�Ñ‹: Ð Ð°ÐºÐµÑ‚Ð° / Russian Watches: Raketa


Interesting. I guess the lighting is poor in that catalog; I had always assumed all watches with that case type in that issue had black bezels, but now I can make myself "see" it both ways.


----------



## Shai1

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Interesting. I guess the lighting is poor in that catalog; I had always assumed all watches with that case type in that issue had black bezels, but now I can make myself "see" it both ways.


I have this same model. I watched dozens of listings before I bought one, they all had chrome bezels. I think that it's the cities model that should have a black bezel. FYI the 'shower' looking pattern at minute 15 and minute 45 is for radio silence at those designated times.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Chrome bezel is correct for that 24 hr. Raketa "watch" watch.


----------



## mroatman

Thanks guys!


----------



## coupeborgward

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

what do you think experts


----------



## wekke

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

for what i can see with this pictures (not so sharp) it is a legitime (lumen appears ok to me, not the plain one of the faken dials) second generation cyrillic civil sturmanskie 3133 (made from ca 1981 till ca 1992)
the clockwork i estimate between 1987 and 1989 , but as i think to see from picture it has a > 1992 silver balance wheel,
i'm shure more knowledged people will throw in their estimation,
greetings 
wekke


----------



## alexir

Any concerns with this one?


----------



## mroatman

alexir said:


> Any concerns with this one?


Dang. Looks like new.


----------



## alexir

mroatman said:


> Dang. Looks like new.


It is new (old)


----------



## coupeborgward

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Thank you for the information. I noticed the wrong balance wheel as well. I guess must have been broken at one stage. Maybe got a big hit



wekke said:


> for what i can see with this pictures (not so sharp) it is a legitime (lumen appears ok to me, not the plain one of the faken dials) second generation cyrillic civil sturmanskie 3133 (made from ca 1981 till ca 1992)
> the clockwork i estimate between 1987 and 1989 , but as i think to see from picture it has a > 1992 silver balance wheel,
> i'm shure more knowledged people will throw in their estimation,
> greetings
> wekke


----------



## Straight_time

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Anyone ever seen this Raketa dial before? It looks quite nice, but unfamiliar.



View attachment 10468162


I wonder if this could be another example of the group of watches I mentioned in this post. :think:

BTW, here are a couple more I spotted in the meantime... they are becoming enough to start a sub-collection.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Straight_time said:


> I wonder if this could be another example of the group of watches I mentioned in this post. :think:


Exactly what I was thinking, actually.


----------



## fofofomin

Comrades, I think I'm finally in the market for my first chronograph watch and I decided it was going to be something along the lines of this. What do you guys think?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## wekke

second generation latin civil poljot sturmanskie dial (ca 1981 till ca 1992),
dial and hands look OK to me
second gen. datewheel
a lot of caseware already on the plated case , shall flake of more i think
3133 clockwork is probably past sovjet , so russian , second generation SU-stamp (1993-95)
and silvercoloured balancewheel >1992
greetings,
wekke


----------



## fofofomin

wekke said:


> second generation latin civil poljot sturmanskie dial (ca 1981 till ca 1992),
> dial and hands look OK to me
> second gen. datewheel
> a lot of caseware already on the plated case , shall flake of more i think
> 3133 clockwork is probably past sovjet , so russian , second generation SU-stamp (1993-95)
> and silvercoloured balancewheel >1992
> greetings,
> wekke


When you say second generation, do you mean Franken chronograph?

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----------



## wekke

Hallo fofofomin,
no, there are three generations civil poljots USSR marked under the 6 o'clock position
- 11 U S 10 S R 9 ( ca 1979 till ca 1985) scarce
- 11 US 10 SR 9 ( ca 1981 till ca 1987 (and later))
- USSR ( ca 1986 till end of sovjiet, and later reissues)
your clockwork is also not franken but later russian made,between 1992 and 1995
so the combination with the dial is not logic, should be more logic with a 3rd generation dial and a blued second-hand


----------



## fofofomin

wekke said:


> Hallo fofofomin,
> no, there are three generations civil poljots USSR marked under the 6 o'clock position
> - 11 U S 10 S R 9 ( ca 1979 till ca 1985) scarce
> - 11 US 10 SR 9 ( ca 1981 till ca 1987 (and later))
> - USSR ( ca 1986 till end of sovjiet, and later reissues)
> your clockwork is also not franken but later russian made,between 1992 and 1995
> so the combination with the dial is not logic, should be more logic with a 3rd generation dial and a blued second-hand


Thanks wekke! I have done a little more research and the info you have provided has proven considerably helpful!

My next question would be, is there a price range for the civilian sturmanskie chronographs that is well known? Now that I have been doing some searching I may consider a military issue since I love the Grey dial and think stainless steel case may be much nicer quality.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## coupeborgward

Do you have something like this for the cyrillic dial ?



wekke said:


> Hallo fofofomin,
> no, there are three generations civil poljots USSR marked under the 6 o'clock position
> - 11 U S 10 S R 9 ( ca 1979 till ca 1985) scarce
> - 11 US 10 SR 9 ( ca 1981 till ca 1987 (and later))
> - USSR ( ca 1986 till end of sovjiet, and later reissues)
> your clockwork is also not franken but later russian made,between 1992 and 1995
> so the combination with the dial is not logic, should be more logic with a 3rd generation dial and a blued second-hand


----------



## fofofomin

OK this is now what I'm interested in after doing alot of reading and research. I love the fact that this is an actual airforce issue watch and movement. What do you guys think, gen and all stainless steel case? For 240 dollars sound fair?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

fofofomin said:


> OK this is now what I'm interested in after doing alot of reading and research. I love the fact that this is an actual airforce issue watch and movement. What do you guys think, gen and all stainless steel case? For 240 dollars sound fair?


I think the price would be fine if this watch was all original, but unfortunately it seems the dial has been relumed. For some, this is an added bonus. For me, it's distracting and unattractive :/


----------



## fofofomin

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> I think the price would be fine if this watch was all original, but unfortunately it seems the dial has been relumed. For some, this is an added bonus. For me, it's distracting and unattractive :/


Thanks for the validation but, Damn I really liked it, and apparently someone else seemed to have the same tastes. Sold already . Back to the search! One thing I have noticed alot of is the lack of lume at all on some of these airforce issued sturmanskies. What Hue would help me recognize it as a genuine? The toothpaste greenish color?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## wekke

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

hallo,
what mroatman says is correct, some people not care relumed,
i for instance also like more the original state instead relumed.
on these grey sturmanskies lumen should not be green but off white, cream or even slightly brown,
important is also the lumen from the indices corresponds the lumen of the hands, and yes, with these grey ones the lumen is flaking of quit easily
the price was very reasonable i think, the movement seems correct (ca 1988-89)
what you think about the first issues from the new Sturmanskie type ?,
cald the ' all Grey Dial'








full bread sturmanskies only for the airforce issued for 2 years only(1986-87) and the first with the 31659-movement, especially sought after when they also have the quarter and date on the
balance bridge
like this one from 3rd quarter 1987


----------



## wekke

hello, coupeborgward,

look tabel in my answer on fofofomin herfore,
for the cyrillic civilian there are 2 generations, of which the first one can be very rare starting nearly together with the first issueing of the OKEAH !
and can be distinguished by the different font of 'NOVET'( serif or not) and 'kamhr'(esp. the 'a')
first gen from ca 1977 till 1985
second gen from ca 1981 till the end of USSR (1991)
first generation







second generation







and of course the both generations also in silver and black


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



fofofomin said:


> What Hue would help me recognize it as a genuine? The toothpaste greenish color?


Most importantly, I would make sure the lume on the hands, bezel, and dial all match exactly. In this case, the bezel pip at 12 o'clock looks good, and the hands appear original as well. Notice the lume in these areas has a thick, white/yellow appearance that is completely opaque. The dots around the dial, however, appear more toothpaste-greenish and translucent (to me anyway).


----------



## slls

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Oh, and there are rare all grey dial examples with green lume and a silver with black tip chrono seconds hand AKA (among collectors) as "black raven" edition. It has a 4-86 marked balance bridge.


----------



## coupeborgward

Thank you wekke

Also this guide Guide - Poljot cal. 3133 helped me a lot to date and identity my 3133. Mine was produces between 1987 - 1989 since I have the thin number /date font and 4 digits serial number.



wekke said:


> hello, coupeborgward,
> 
> look tabel in my answer on fofofomin herfore,
> for the cyrillic civilian there are 2 generations, of which the first one can be very rare starting nearly together with the first issueing of the OKEAH !
> and can be distinguished by the different font of 'NOVET'( serif or not) and 'kamhr'(esp. the 'a')
> first gen from ca 1977 till 1985
> second gen from ca 1981 till the end of USSR (1991)
> first generation


----------



## fofofomin

wekke said:


> hallo,
> what mroatman says is correct, some people not care relumed,
> i for instance also like more the original state instead relumed.
> on these grey sturmanskies lumen should not be green but off white, cream or even slightly brown,
> important is also the lumen from the indices corresponds the lumen of the hands, and yes, with these grey ones the lumen is flaking of quit easily
> the price was very reasonable i think, the movement seems correct (ca 1988-89)
> what you think about the first issues from the new Sturmanskie type ?,
> cald the ' all Grey Dial'
> 
> View attachment 10539746
> 
> full bread sturmanskies only for the airforce issued for 2 years only(1986-87) and the first with the 31659-movement, especially sought after when they also have the quarter and date on the
> balance bridge
> like this one from 3rd quarter 1987
> 
> View attachment 10539818
> View attachment 10539826





wekke said:


> hello, coupeborgward,
> 
> look tabel in my answer on fofofomin herfore,
> for the cyrillic civilian there are 2 generations, of which the first one can be very rare starting nearly together with the first issueing of the OKEAH !
> and can be distinguished by the different font of 'NOVET'( serif or not) and 'kamhr'(esp. the 'a')
> first gen from ca 1977 till 1985
> second gen from ca 1981 till the end of USSR (1991)
> first generation
> View attachment 10540010
> 
> second generation
> View attachment 10540058
> 
> and of course the both generations also in silver and black





mroatman said:


> Most importantly, I would make sure the lume on the hands, bezel, and dial all match exactly. In this case, the bezel pip at 12 o'clock looks good, and the hands appear original as well. Notice the lume in these areas has a thick, white/yellow appearance that is completely opaque. The dots around the dial, however, appear more toothpaste-greenish and translucent (to me anyway).
> 
> View attachment 10542106





coupeborgward said:


> Thank you wekke
> 
> Also this guide Guide - Poljot cal. 3133 helped me a lot to date and identity my 3133. Mine was produces between 1987 - 1989 since I have the thin number /date font and 4 digits serial number.


This is why I love this forum, thanks for the wealth of knowledge this is helping me out a ton to spot out fakes etc. I have studied the posts listed here.

Starting to see alot of differences during my searches. The date and quarter stamp on the bridge has now peaked my interest on the particular generation of sturmanskie.

And yes I'm currently interested in the 31659 'painted Grey dial' variety although I really like the other types I've seen. This could be a dangerous door I'm opening for my wallet 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## wekke

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



slls said:


> Oh, and there are rare all grey dial examples with green lume and a silver with black tip chrono seconds hand AKA (among collectors) as "black raven" edition. It has a 4-86 marked balance bridge.


there is one on the bay right now,
but very expensive (but maybe worth if original)
but i have my thoughts on relumed? repainted or redailed? and movement is also not correct i think


----------



## fofofomin

fofofomin said:


> This is why I love this forum, thanks for the wealth of knowledge this is helping me out a ton to spot out fakes etc. I have studied the posts listed here.
> 
> Starting to see alot of differences during my searches. The date and quarter stamp on the bridge has now peaked my interest on the particular generation of sturmanskie.
> 
> And yes I'm currently interested in the 31659 'painted Grey dial' variety although I really like the other types I've seen. This could be a dangerous door I'm opening for my wallet
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Regarding quarter stamp on the bridge, do all 31659 type sturmanskie have the stamp to validate military contract? Or were many not stamped with the quarter because I'm seeing many different, some with some with out.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

fofofomin said:


> Regarding quarter stamp on the bridge, do all 31659 type sturmanskie have the stamp to validate military contract? Or were many not stamped with the quarter because I'm seeing many different, some with some with out.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I wouldn't eliminate one for consideration without the date stamp but it's a nice extra.

Here's mine, ssn 0345, all original, in my opinion, including original, slightly glowing, lume.

View attachment 5.jpg


https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/limited-fuzzy-picture-chrono-acquisition-1907058.html


----------



## fofofomin

schnurrp said:


> I wouldn't eliminate one for consideration without the date stamp but it's a nice extra.
> 
> Here's mine, ssn 0345, all original, in my opinion, including original, slightly glowing, lume.
> 
> View attachment 10560506
> 
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/limited-fuzzy-picture-chrono-acquisition-1907058.html


Beautiful! I'll need to locate an OEM bracelet, Ive seen a few on the bay.

Thanks for the info I'll keep that in mind for my search. I'm getting closeer to finding one I like.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## dutchassasin

fofofomin said:


> Beautiful! I'll need to locate an OEM bracelet, Ive seen a few on the bay.
> 
> Thanks for the info I'll keep that in mind for my search. I'm getting closeer to finding one I like.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


A seller on etsy has a couple of nice Sturmanskie bracelets for a good price
https://www.etsy.com/nl/listing/497...search_query=poljot bracelet&ref=sr_gallery_3


----------



## Kittycat

Is this how a Pobeda should be?




























Other than the bracelet, which I suppose is not original.


----------



## schnurrp

Kittycat said:


> Is this how a Pobeda should be?
> View attachment 10580066
> 
> View attachment 10580074
> 
> View attachment 10580082
> 
> View attachment 10580090
> 
> Other than the bracelet, which I suppose is not original.


Pobeda or "Victory" watches were very popular with soviet watch buyers, evidently, and were manufactured by several soviet watch companies. Your example was made at ZIM : 'Zavod Imeni Maslennikova' - Maslennikov Watch Factory, Samara and appears to be completely authentic, to me.

https://sekondtime.wordpress.com/factories/

You are right about the band. Soviet watches were almost never supplied with bands.


----------



## Uros TSI

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*










Is this one legit? Caseback is normal. It is 2416b auto movement. Seems okay to me.

Im having trouble dating it too. The info on these old type Ministry cases is very scarce. 
RN3 Pro via TT


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Uros TSI said:


> Is this one legit? Caseback is normal. It is 2416b auto movement. Seems okay to me.
> 
> Im having trouble dating it too. The info on these old type Ministry cases is very scarce.
> RN3 Pro via TT


No.

Parts from at least 3 different watches that I can see from that picture.

This is the only catalog picture (1980) of an old "Old Ministry" that I know of and is generally accepted as the only dial/hands/crown put in this case. I've seen some with the newer "arrow" amphibian hand set but not in a catalog. And I used to own one with a green dial but not seen in a catalog.









Here's mine:


----------



## Uros TSI

Too bad. But it looks really nice and very cheap. Ill reconsider buying it. Thank you very much. 

RN3 Pro via TT


----------



## schnurrp

Uros TSI said:


> Too bad. But it looks really nice and very cheap. Ill reconsider buying it. Thank you very much.
> 
> RN3 Pro via TT


There are some good parts there, particularly if it's running good. Might be worth buying if it's cheap enough. Your cheap may not be the same as mine. Less than $50?


----------



## Uros TSI

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Yes. Exactly 50$. Found it on something like local craigslist. The seller has some other Vostok frankens though listed for sale.

If it does not run perfectly it's not a problem since watchmakers here do the cleaning an servicing for about 20 dollars equivalent. You can do that even cheaper. And we have Meranom for parts.

RN3 Pro via TT


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Uros TSI said:


> Yes. Exactly 50$. Found it on something like local craigslist. The seller has some other Vostok frankens though listed for sale.
> 
> If it does not run perfectly it's not a problem since watchmakers here do the cleaning an servicing for about 20 dollars equivalent. You can do that even cheaper. And we have Meranom for parts.
> 
> RN3 Pro via TT


Marginal. Unless you have a specific need for all those parts to replace or repair parts of an original watch(s) you already own and are not depending on a watchmaker, you would be better off to add a few dollars and buy a whole watch, new, from Meranom, like this one (https://meranom.com/en/amphibian-classic/150/) and tell them you want "scuba dude" dial.

I don't like to encourage frankenmeisters unless the deal is just too good to pass up and I need the parts, but that's just my opinion.

Udachi!


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> Anyone ever seen this Raketa dial before? It looks quite nice, but unfamiliar.
> 
> View attachment 10468162


This one's for sale on Etsy right now:


----------



## Kittycat

schnurrp said:


> Pobeda or "Victory" watches were very popular with soviet watch buyers, evidently, and were manufactured by several soviet watch companies. Your example was made at ZIM : 'Zavod Imeni Maslennikova' - Maslennikov Watch Factory, Samara and appears to be completely authentic, to me.


Thank you. If I may ask, how can you tell it was made at ZIM? On some examples it seems there is an inscription with the name of the factory on the dial, but I do not see one here. Is it simply the case that Pobedas without these inscriptions were only made at ZIM?

Also, is it possible to pinpoint its date of manufacture? I'd naively assume that such a simple design would be hard to date, but I'd love to be wrong


----------



## schnurrp

Kittycat said:


> Thank you. If I may ask, how can you tell it was made at ZIM? On some examples it seems there is an inscription with the name of the factory on the dial, but I do not see one here. Is it simply the case that Pobedas without these inscriptions were only made at ZIM?
> 
> Also, is it possible to pinpoint its date of manufacture? I'd naively assume that such a simple design would be hard to date, but I'd love to be wrong


For me, the ZIM movement is the most important indication. Also, the style of art work and graphics on the dial is similar to other ZIM-branded examples. Unfortunately, ZIMs are not well-represented in catalogs. I only know of one that has any ZIMs at all, and this one was not in it.

As to age, I believe I see CCCP at the bottom of the dial so we know it was made before '91 or '92 and that very plain, machine-produced 2602 k26 movement didn't appear until into the mid-'70s, I bellieve. That gives us almost a two decade spread but it's the best we can do unless someone has one identical with a dated purchase passport.

Here is my current favorite from 1955 made at the Chistopol Watch Factory (later Vostok). This information is found on the nicely decorated k26 movement and, as you can see, in contrast there is nothing on the simple, quite modern for the time, dial with its low-profile crystal held in a very thin bezel, other than "Pobeda" and some simple numbers including the "race track" sub-dial and a pair of "necktie" hands.

View attachment Capture.JPG


----------



## AGAPITO

Hi. If possible, I wanted to ask for your help again. On this occasion, I think it is one of the best known civil Vostok watches, although it still looks like a beautiful watch, with a unique case I did not know. Except for my mistake, it would be an original Vostok Olympic watch, maybe manufactured between 1979-1980, roughly. I would appreciate any opinion about the watch (vg. Hands, case, dial, etc). Thank you in advance.


----------



## AGAPITO

And what do you think the hands of this other Vostok? I would say that the hands are not original, although the watch is nice and the hands do not look bad...


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> And what do you think the hands of this other Vostok? I would say that the hands are not original, although the watch is nice and the hands do not look bad...
> View attachment 10615250
> 
> 
> View attachment 10615258
> 
> 
> View attachment 10615274
> 
> 
> View attachment 10615290


I don't have any proof one way or the other about that one comrade, but looking at the overall good even condition I would be surprised if the hands have been replaced since they seem to match with the hour bars.

But I don't know, maybe somebody else has one like it to compare.


----------



## coupeborgward

AGAPITO said:


> Hi. If possible, I wanted to ask for your help again. On this occasion, I think it is one of the best known civil Vostok watches, although it still looks like a beautiful watch, with a unique case I did not know. Except for my mistake, it would be an original Vostok Olympic watch, maybe manufactured between 1979-1980, roughly. I would appreciate any opinion about the watch (vg. Hands, case, dial, etc). Thank you in advance.
> 
> View attachment 10614698
> 
> 
> View attachment 10614706
> 
> 
> View attachment 10614714
> 
> 
> View attachment 10614722
> 
> 
> View attachment 10614730


Looks all good to me


----------



## AGAPITO

schnurrp said:


> I don't have any proof one way or the other about that one comrade, but looking at the overall good even condition I would be surprised if the hands have been replaced since they seem to match with the hour bars.
> 
> But I don't know, maybe somebody else has one like it to compare.


Thank you schnurrp, you are always very kind. I understand what you're saying. I have not seen this watch in any catalog. I asked you because I have seen identical dials in the Mark Gordon collection and in the collection of another great Russian collector named Dimitry on his website ????????? ????? ???? :: USSR watches collection :: ??????? ????????. Both collectors have the same type of watch with the same hands, which are different from those of this watch.


----------



## AGAPITO

coupeborgward said:


> Looks all good to me


Thank you very much.


----------



## hseldon

The Olympic Vostok looks good to me. The only part I am not sure of is the crown, though yours may be spot on. I have one myself which I think also has an incorrect crown. Everything else is certainly fine though. A great looking watch. Love mine, especially those hands! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## coupeborgward

hseldon said:


> The Olympic Vostok looks good to me. The only part I am not sure of is the crown, though yours may be spot on. I have one myself which I think also has an incorrect crown. Everything else is certainly fine though. A great looking watch. Love mine, especially those hands!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think the crown os fine. see my example


----------



## coupeborgward

schnurrp said:


> I don't have any proof one way or the other about that one comrade, but looking at the overall good even condition I would be surprised if the hands have been replaced since they seem to match with the hour bars.
> 
> But I don't know, maybe somebody else has one like it to compare.


agree the hands look original to me. same square design. Looks all good to me.


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you schnurrp, you are always very kind. I understand what you're saying. I have not seen this watch in any catalog. I asked you because I have seen identical dials in the Mark Gordon collection and in the collection of another great Russian collector named Dimitry on his website ????????? ????? ???? :: USSR watches collection :: ??????? ????????. Both collectors have the same type of watch with the same hands, which are different from those of this watch.


Yes, I think you are right. From Antonov's collection:









On your olympic commemorative, similar case, dial, and hands, different color, from '80 catalog:


----------



## AGAPITO

schnurrp said:


> Yes, I think you are right. From Antonov's collection:
> 
> View attachment 10618906
> 
> 
> On your olympic commemorative, similar case, dial, and hands, different color, from '80 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 10618826


I think I have seen that hands before, but not in that kind of 2214 case...


----------



## AGAPITO

schnurrp said:


> Yes, I think you are right. From Antonov's collection:
> 
> View attachment 10618906
> 
> 
> On your olympic commemorative, similar case, dial, and hands, different color, from '80 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 10618826


I think I have seen that hands before, but not in that kind of 2214 case...


----------



## Stevecru

Hi Everyone. Does anybody have an opinion on the authenticity of this watch? Supposedly from 1939.


----------



## mroatman

Stevecru said:


> Hi Everyone. Does anybody have an opinion on the authenticity of this watch? Supposedly from 1939.


Beautiful watch. Overall, it looks like an authentic First State Watch Factory pocket watch from Q3-1939, with just a couple questionable parts:

- Some say the crown and barrel wheels should be flat, not 'excavated', and are therefore replaced. I'm not so sure myself. Either they are original or they are a common replacement, not a big deal in my opinion.
- I've never seen a caseback like that on a watch of this vintage. It's interesting, but seems to fit well. It appears the inside of the caseback is inscribed -- can you provide a better picture of this inscription? Hopefully it will have a date, and that might help determine if it is original.


----------



## Stevecru

mroatman said:


> Beautiful watch. Overall, it looks like an authentic First State Watch Factory pocket watch from Q3-1939, with just a couple questionable parts:
> 
> - Some say the crown and barrel wheels should be flat, not 'excavated', and are therefore replaced. I'm not so sure myself. Either they are original or they are a common replacement, not a big deal in my opinion.
> - I've never seen a caseback like that on a watch of this vintage. It's interesting, but seems to fit well. It appears the inside of the caseback is inscribed -- can you provide a better picture of this inscription? Hopefully it will have a date, and that might help determine if it is original.


Thank you very much for the analysis Dashiell, I really appreciate it. Here are a few more photos including the inscription. Is the dial beginning to separate? and perhaps eventually flake off?


----------



## mroatman

Stevecru said:


> Thank you very much for the analysis Dashiell, I really appreciate it. Here are a few more photos including the inscription. Is the dial beginning to separate? and perhaps eventually flake off?


Lovely inscription. I cannot read it, but the year makes sense and such a personal message always increases the value in my opinion.

The factory seal is appropriate for the year of production:









Yes, it seems the paint has dried out and is beginning to crack. If handled delicately and stored properly, I wouldn't worry about it. But yes, this is a sign that some paint chips may eventually flake off. Here is one of my pieces that suffered the same fate:


----------



## Straight_time

Stevecru said:


> Is the dial beginning to separate? and perhaps eventually flake off?


IMHO yes, given its conditions that watch should remain on display in a static collection, too risky to bring it around.

Me too have some cracked dials like that, never tried yet but I wonder if a repair could be attempted using products for paintings (oil on canvas and the likes). 
Old/antique works often show the same problem, a professional fine art restorer could maybe deal with it better than a watchmaker. :think:



mroatman said:


> Some say (...)


Uh-oh....








:-d

I agree with you anyway - they may or may not be factory originals, but it's a detail of such lesser importance (and so easily fixed, just in case), so who really cares?

Nice caseback, don't recall to have ever seen any before (or was there anything similar for post-war pocket watches from Zim?). Also nice inscription, dates match well.
The only real problem of that watch is it's terribly overpriced, IMHO. 
None of those I own (they are quite a few now -some in worse conditions than the one shown here, but many also far, far better) got even close to the seller's asking price... hopefully he would consider a _very_ good discount, otherwise I would pass on it.


----------



## Stevecru

Straight_time said:


> IMHO yes, given its conditions that watch should remain on display in a static collection, too risky to bring it around.
> 
> Me too have some cracked dials like that, never tried yet but I wonder if a repair could be attempted using products for paintings (oil on canvas and the likes).
> Old/antique works often show the same problem, a professional fine art restorer could maybe deal with it better than a watchmaker. :think:
> 
> Uh-oh....
> View attachment 10647394
> 
> 
> :-d
> 
> I agree with you anyway - they may or may not be factory originals, but it's a detail of such lesser importance (and so easily fixed, just in case), so who really cares?
> 
> Nice caseback, don't recall to have ever seen any before (or was there anything similar for post-war pocket watches from Zim?). Also nice inscription, dates match well.
> The only real problem of that watch is it's terribly overpriced, IMHO.
> None of those I own (they are quite a few now -some in worse conditions than the one shown here, but many also far, far better) got even close to the seller's asking price... hopefully he would consider a _very_ good discount, otherwise I would pass on it.


The seller asked for $175, I offered $100. We settled on $115. I'm not sure if I overpaid or not, but it seemed too unique to miss out on. I really love those Type 1 watches.


----------



## Stevecru

Straight_time said:


> IMHO yes, given its conditions that watch should remain on display in a static collection, too risky to bring it around.
> 
> Me too have some cracked dials like that, never tried yet but I wonder if a repair could be attempted using products for paintings (oil on canvas and the likes).
> Old/antique works often show the same problem, a professional fine art restorer could maybe deal with it better than a watchmaker. :think:
> 
> Uh-oh....
> View attachment 10647394
> 
> 
> :-d
> 
> I agree with you anyway - they may or may not be factory originals, but it's a detail of such lesser importance (and so easily fixed, just in case), so who really cares?
> 
> Nice caseback, don't recall to have ever seen any before (or was there anything similar for post-war pocket watches from Zim?). Also nice inscription, dates match well.
> The only real problem of that watch is it's terribly overpriced, IMHO.
> None of those I own (they are quite a few now -some in worse conditions than the one shown here, but many also far, far better) got even close to the seller's asking price... hopefully he would consider a _very_ good discount, otherwise I would pass on it.


The seller asked for $175, I offered $100. We settled on $115. I'm not sure if I overpaid or not, but it seemed too unique to miss out on. I really love those Type 1 watches.


----------



## slls

Expensive old OKEAH with white lume at the bay
USSR early chronograph watch OCEAN okean poljot 3133 ** | eBay

I doubt if the dial is correct. I think the dial is the second style from the 80-ies. The logo OKEAH is thick and the - of the H is exactly in the middle while first style dials have an of centre - in the H (a bit lower). So I think the dial has been relumed with vintage style white lume. 
BTW the chrono minute jumper has been replaced as well and I think the bezel should be blue with red indicators, not gold coloured. 
What do you think?


----------



## MattBrace

slls said:


> Expensive old OKEAH with white lume at the bay
> USSR early chronograph watch OCEAN okean poljot 3133 ** | eBay
> 
> I doubt if the dial is correct. I think the dial is the second style from the 80-ies. The logo OKEAH is thick and the - of the H is exactly in the middle while first style dials have an of centre - in the H (a bit lower). So I think the dial has been relumed with vintage style white lume.
> BTW the chrono minute jumper has been replaced as well and I think the bezel should be blue with red indicators, not gold coloured.
> What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 10651722


Hans, I would agree its a second gen dial, no flat 4 on the dial but a flat 4 on the bezel ring, as you say probably re-lumed. Movement and case are correct for an early gen 1 example also the bezel ring is correct but faded. Jumper spring as you have pointed out has been replaced.

Cheers


----------



## mroatman

Stevecru said:


> The seller asked for $175, I offered $100. We settled on $115. I'm not sure if I overpaid or not, but it seemed too unique to miss out on. I really love those Type 1 watches.


Maybe overpaid a little, but if you love it, who cares? It's a rare piece in great condition with lots of character and a beautiful engraving. I'd enjoy it.

His older brother says hi


----------



## Kittycat

So, this looks too good to be true, so will the experts please point out the evidence this is a fake? 

Besides the condition of the dial (and everything, really) being suspiciously good for a 50+ year old watch.


----------



## Straight_time

It doesn't look too good to be true, it looks exactly how a fake is supposed to be... could be taken as reference for books. :rodekaart
Check this thread, there's almost no need for words.

Just in case:

- ridiculous font
- wrong Air Force logo position
- wrong hands
- wrong crown
- wrong movement (too recent: no datestamp, stem release button rather than screw)

Hopefully it's not advertised as "authentic"... :roll:


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> - wrong movement (too recent: no datestamp, stem release button rather than screw)


And it doesn't hack (jewels are not deeply recessed). That's one of the biggest flaws with many of these 15-jewel fakes; the original purpose/functionality is absent.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> And it doesn't hack (jewels are not deeply recessed). That's one of the biggest flaws with many of these 15-jewel fakes; the original purpose/functionality is absent.


Technically it is possible to construct a 41m movement with the thin bridge without recessed jewels that hacks, evidently. Check the resurection of this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/i-understand-how-2608-41m-movement-hacks-807538.html.

That's not to say it's authentic, though.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> That's not to say it's authentic, though.


Right, and the recessed jewels are a good visual indicator for beginners to know movements that have been replaced. I highly doubt a frankenmaster would go through the trouble of rigging up a 15-jewel Moskva movement to include hacking just so it's technically correct for the Sturmanskie. Plus, even if they did, it wouldn't be original.

Some good reading, though, thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Right, and the recessed jewels are a good visual indicator for beginners to know movements that have been replaced. I highly doubt a frankenmaster would go through the trouble of rigging up a 15-jewel Moskva movement to include hacking just so it's technically correct for the Sturmanskie. Plus, even if they did, it wouldn't be original.
> 
> Some good reading, though, thanks!


On the other hand I'm not so doubtful a frankenmaster would pass up switching out a flat bridge for a thick, recessed jewel bridge for the look of a hacking movement.

This is really just a technical argument and not a common complaint.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> On the other hand I'm not so doubtful a frankenmaster would pass up switching out a flat bridge for a thick, recessed jewel bridge for the look of a hacking movement.


Aha, I see what you're saying. Great point.

But I don't think these bridges are so plentiful, especially detached from their original movements.

To be safe, I guess its necessary to look for recessed jewels _and_ seller confirmation that the movement hacks.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Aha, I see what you're saying. Great point.
> 
> But I don't think these bridges are so plentiful, especially detached from their original movements.
> 
> To be safe, I guess its necessary to look for recessed jewels _and_ seller confirmation that the movement hacks.


The 17J sportivnie movements are quite common but the 15 jewel recessed bridge movements are very rare. I think I've seen one for sale in 5 years.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> The 17J sportivnie movements are quite common but the 15 jewel recessed bridge movements are very rare. I think I've seen one for sale in 5 years.


Yes, sorry; as this conversation started about a 15-jewel piece, it's the 15-jewel hacking movement I was referring to above.


----------



## Kittycat

Straight_time said:


> - wrong movement (too recent: no datestamp, stem release button rather than screw)


Speaking of movement issues, this is supposed to be a 15J Molnija:







But I don't see a year and quarter of manufacture anywhere. Could it still be legit?

Also can anyone tell what the number under the wheel is? Is it 3602 (which would rule it a franken AFAIK)?

Edit: the finishing pattern also seems wrong, 15j Molnija movements should have broad Geneva stripes right?


----------



## schnurrp

Kittycat said:


> Speaking of movement issues, this is supposed to be a 15J Molnija:
> View attachment 10710250
> 
> But I don't see a year and quarter of manufacture anywhere. Could it still be legit?
> 
> Also can anyone tell what the number under the wheel is? Is it 3602 (which would rule it a franken AFAIK)?
> 
> Edit: the finishing pattern also seems wrong, 15j Molnija movements should have broad Geneva stripes right?


There isn't any reason to believe that those parts aren't authentic, just that they don't belong together. The smooth bridges are from a newer 3602 a general code (russian-codes) used by soviet watch makers that means 36mm, sub dial second hand, non-shockproof.


----------



## Straight_time

In this case, the franken part is the Geneva-striped bridge with the S/N and the ChChZ logo, likely used to make the watch look older than it actually is.

The core of the movement is modern: notice the "3602" marking on the main plate (the 4-digits coding didn't exist yet back then), and the straight brushed finishing of the other 2 bridges is perfectly consistent with that. 
By the time these parts were produced, the Q-YY datestamping had long been discontinued; so it's ok that you don't find it.

_EDIT: when will I learn to check for updates of a thread before posting? Schnurrp has been faster than light as always.... o| _


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> In this case, the franken part is the Geneva-striped bridge with the S/N and the ChChZ logo, likely used to make the watch look older than it actually is.
> 
> The core of the movement is modern: notice the "3602" marking on the main plate (the 4-digits coding didn't exist yet back then), and the straight brushed finishing of the other 2 bridges is perfectly consistent with that.
> By the time these parts were produced, the Q-YY datestamping had long been discontinued; so it's ok that you don't find it.
> 
> _EDIT: when will I learn to check for updates of a thread before posting? Schnurrp has been faster than light as always.... o| _


Yes, but my response was incomplete (as often happens). The key point is the 3602 on the main plate identifying the old part as having been introduced instead of the other way around....|>


----------



## kev80e

As I'm swapping out some of my dirkskies for Soviet era ones , I have found this which has a dial I've admired for a while. I believe all correct including the silver seconds hand. Not a 3aka3 but in good condition.








Typically I then found a 3aka3 one. Not in such good condition but very cheap. Now this has a meatball hand. So my question, is there a rule that 3aka3 have meatball but cccp not meatball? And at what point did they go from silver to red? I have a feeling the answer isn't going to be straightforward.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> As I'm swapping out some of my dirkskies for Soviet era ones , I have found this which has a dial I've admired for a while. I believe all correct including the silver seconds hand. Not a 3aka3 but in good condition.
> View attachment 10770330
> 
> 
> Typically I then found a 3aka3 one. Not in such good condition but very cheap. Now this has a meatball hand. So my question, is there a rule that 3aka3 have meatball but cccp not meatball? And at what point
> did they go from silver to red? I have a feeling the answer isn't going to be straightforward.
> View attachment 10770346


No rule that I know of, kev80e. I would be happy with that one at a low price. There's this one in the '90 catalogs below and check Michelle's website for another version Michele Cuoccio's Russian Watches Website.









I recently sold this one


----------



## kev80e

Thanks Schnurrp. I have a crystal and several different seconds hands , don't really want to try and match the lume, so hopefully I can sort it out fairly easily.


----------



## schnurrp

Was there an authentic version of the Raketa Antarctic 24 hr. put in a round case like this? I can't remember.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Was there an authentic version of the Raketa Antarctic 24 hr. put in a round case like this? I can't remember.


Don't think so. The only appropriate case for that dial -- at least that I've seen and would be comfortable with -- is the one below, either chrome or gold-plated.

It's model 553463 according to the 1975 Catalog (ergo 551463 for chrome):


----------



## schnurrp

?


----------



## schnurrp

Thanks, Dash, that one's well-known, just wanted to know about the round case one. There's one with a so-so dial for sale and I want to use it on my next Raketa 2627 hybrid (what would be the number for a 24 hr. automatic movement?) but do not want to destroy a collectible.

Yours is quite beautiful, by the way. Want to put a rule on it and confirm dial size 30mm?


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Thanks, Dash, that one's well-known, just wanted to know about the round case one. There's one with a so-so dial for sale and I want to use it on my next Raketa 2627 hybrid (what would be the number for a 24 hr. automatic movement?) but do not want to destroy a collectible.
> Yours is quite beautiful, by the way. Want to put a ruler on it and confirm dial size 30mm?


I'd say, use away -- I don't think you'd be destroying anything but a franken.

I believe 24-hour automatic = xx31 (e.g. Vosotk 2431B)

Unfortunately, I can't measure my dial -- it's in storage


----------



## Arizone

kev80e said:


> Typically I then found a 3aka3 one. Not in such good condition but very cheap. Now this has a meatball hand. So my question, is there a rule that 3aka3 have meatball but cccp not meatball? And at what point did they go from silver to red? I have a feeling the answer isn't going to be straightforward.


The only correlation I found is that the lumed second hand is always accompanied by a plain caseback (no sunrise and bird design) and a flat crown. Non-3aka3 dials may also have the lumed second hand, and I think color simply varied more between models.


----------



## mariomart

Can someone please tell me what the word under Made in CCCP is? Is it a dial that was issued by Vostok or is it a fantasy dial?

Thank you.


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> Can someone please tell me what the word under Made in CCCP is? Is it a dial that was issued by Vostok or is it a fantasy dial?


Офицерские = Oficerskie = Officer's

No idea if it's original, though. Looks pretty sketch to me.


----------



## kev80e

Arizone said:


> The only correlation I found is that the lumed second hand is always accompanied by a plain caseback (no sunrise and bird design) and a flat crown. Non-3aka3 dials may also have the lumed second hand, and I think color simply varied more between models.


Both of these have the same caseback and crown . I just don't want to relume the meatball , always looks odd, so my plan is to fit a straight silver one. Cheers.


----------



## kev80e

mariomart said:


> Can someone please tell me what the word under Made in CCCP is? Is it a dial that was issued by Vostok or is it a fantasy dial?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> View attachment 10822610


Fantasy I'd say.


----------



## kev80e

I've been wanting a 24 hour for a while but I'm not keen on the usual case, a bit like the perpetual calendar one. I've seen these , but I'm well out my knowledge here. Neither have a movement shot, I would ask for one first. Genuine? 






















My concern is they look like the centre out of the other cases.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> I've been wanting a 24 hour for a while but I'm not keen on the usual case, a bit like the perpetual calendar one. I've seen these , but I'm well out my knowledge here. Neither have a movement shot, I would ask for one first. Genuine?


I won't pretend to know for sure, but both look fishy to me.


----------



## willjackson

Check out this Raketa symbol on this 2602. It looks like the power went out in the factory and they were doing it by hand that day.

Is this legit or a homemade rocket?









I am one with The Force, The Force is with me.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> I've been wanting a 24 hour for a while but I'm not keen on the usual case, a bit like the perpetual calendar one. I've seen these , but I'm well out my knowledge here. Neither have a movement shot, I would ask for one first. Genuine?
> View attachment 10841538
> View attachment 10841546
> 
> 
> View attachment 10841570
> 
> 
> My concern is they look like the centre out of the other cases.


Never seen in any catalogs, comrade, which is bad enough for me. I wouldn't buy it except for parts and I bet it has a modified 2609 movement.

And now the necessary qualifications when dealing with Russian watches: "At least to the best of my knowledge, etc., etc.,......."


----------



## kev80e

The more I look I agree . So maybe one of these is my only option.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> The more I look I agree . So maybe one of these is my only option.


I believe that particular watch has a replaced case. See here.

Another option, though no easier to find: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/perplexing-polar-3420834.html


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> I believe that particular watch has a replaced case. See here.
> 
> Another option, though no easier to find: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/perplexing-polar-3420834.html


T
Checked the hands etc against yours and missed the case . Thanks Dashiell . That other variation is certainly very nice . I will keep hunting for something at a reasonable price.


----------



## sebii

Hello friends,

I'm a scarce poster, but I have spent _hours _absorbing the wealth of knowledge on this forums, so many thanks. I have been a collector of old soviet watches for a while, but I'm still looking for just the right 15J Sturmanskie Gagarin to join my collection. I've found what appears to be a good candidate, but I'm concerned about the dial. It has what people call "sparkly", although I'm unsure about the import of this. I don't think I have ever seen a "matte" Gagarin, but the risk of a repro dial is putting me off. Here are three photos from the auction (I can't post links yet):





















What do you think? The serial, geneva striping, ratchet wheel, date, crown, hands, and jewel setting all look good to me. Just that dial...


----------



## mroatman

sebii said:


> Hello friends,
> I'm a scarce poster, but I have spent _hours _absorbing the wealth of knowledge on this forums, so many thanks. I have been a collector of old soviet watches for a while, but I'm still looking for just the right 15J Sturmanskie Gagarin to join my collection. I've found what appears to be a good candidate, but I'm concerned about the dial. It has what people call "sparkly", although I'm unsure about the import of this. I don't think I have ever seen a "matte" Gagarin, but the risk of a repro dial is putting me off. Here are three photos from the auction (I can't post links yet):
> What do you think? The serial, geneva striping, ratchet wheel, date, crown, hands, and jewel setting all look good to me. Just that dial...


Welcome sebii!

Dial is fine -- a beautiful watch. Appears 100% authentic. And the box is a rare find (it doesn't belong to this particular watch since the numbers don't match, but still a nice addition). 
But that price :rodekaart


----------



## sebii

Thanks mroatman. The price is steep indeed, but it is an excellent example. I'm hoping he will come down — early signs are not so great!


----------



## mroatman

sebii said:


> Thanks mroatman. The price is steep indeed, but it is an excellent example. I'm hoping he will come down - early signs are not so great!


Haha, good luck!


----------



## Jeroenskie

What do you guys say about this one? The movement looks pretty rough compared to the dial. Is the dial fake? And what about the movement?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> What do you guys say about this one? The movement looks pretty rough compared to the dial. Is the dial fake? And what about the movement?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I think all the parts taken separately are authentic. Whether or not they belong together, is another question. That handset, to me, has a distinct Chistopol/Second Moscow look while the movement is First Moscow. I think there's a reasonable chance all the parts belong together so I wouldn't dismiss it yet, particularly if the price is not unreasonable. Let's see what some of the others think.


----------



## Jeroenskie

schnurrp said:


> I think all the parts taken separately are authentic. Whether or not they belong together, is another question. That handset, to me, has a distinct Chistopol/Second Moscow look while the movement is First Moscow. I think there's a reasonable chance all the parts belong together so I wouldn't dismiss it yet, particularly if the price is not unreasonable. Let's see what some of the others think.


Thanks for the quick reply! I just looked at the website of Mroatman and saw this dial under the category First State Watch Factory. It looks identical to the one I posted.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> That handset, to me, has a distinct Chistopol/Second Moscow look while the movement is First Moscow.


Really! I never thought about it this way before, but I suppose you could be right. What would you expect instead, the more "classic" pocket-watch-style hands with spade-shaped tips? I would agree that these are not wrong, but I thought they were more of a transitional/civilian style, while the hands on the watch above were more common on the later military pieces. Now you've got me curious. Hopefully Straight_time will peek his head in here. In the absence of your comments, I would have said that watch looks fine.

Here are some examples with a similar configuration: 1, 2, 3, 4. Of course, that doesn't prove anything. I'm starting to doubt...

By the way, Jeroenskie: Unfortunately, I cannot vouch for the authenticity of any of the watches on my website. I do my best, but use with caution :-(


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Really! I never thought about it this way before, but I suppose you could be right. What would you expect instead, the more "classic" pocket-watch-style hands with spade-shaped tips? I would agree that these are not wrong, but I thought they were more of a transitional/civilian style, while the hands on the watch above were more common on the later military pieces. Now you've got me curious. Hopefully Straight_time will peek his head in here. In the absence of your comments, I would have said that watch looks fine.
> 
> Here are some examples with a similar configuration: 1, 2, 3, 4. Of course, that doesn't prove anything. I'm starting to doubt...
> 
> By the way, Jeroenskie: Unfortunately, I cannot vouch for the authenticity of any of the watches on my website. I do my best, but use with caution :-(


Yes, I will be interested to see what comrade Straight_time has to say. One little detail on the second hand is the ball on the tail end.

These from Mark's site:

Factory 53









First Moscow with similar hands, different 24 hour dial









Hard to see how this can be resolved what with the apparent sharing of parts back and forth and lack of extensive catalog evidence.

I'm leaning toward authentic. I would consider buying if the price was right.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Hard to see how this can be resolved what with the apparent sharing of parts back and forth and lack of extensive catalog evidence.


I forgot to mention that Zlatoust also used this hand style for at least one of their designs:


----------



## Stevecru

This is a similar watch to the one discussed above, but with the "spoon" hands or "spade" hands. I'm not sure what the proper terminology is.
Any comments on this one currently for sale
?


----------



## mroatman

Stevecru said:


> This is a similar watch to the one discussed above, but with the "spoon" hands or "spade" hands. I'm not sure what the proper terminology is.
> Any comments on this one currently for sale?


Looks like an overall nice example fro Q2-1941, but I would pass for two reasons:

1. The crown appears to be a replacement (<-- not a big deal)
2. The balance staff jewel appears to be missing, along with the screws (<-- very difficult to replace short of buying a whole new Type-1 movement for parts)









It's too bad. These dials with the solid-black numbers are less common in my experience.


----------



## miroman

sebii said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> I'm a scarce poster, but I have spent _hours _absorbing the wealth of knowledge on this forums, so many thanks. I have been a collector of old soviet watches for a while, but I'm still looking for just the right 15J Sturmanskie Gagarin to join my collection. I've found what appears to be a good candidate, but I'm concerned about the dial. It has what people call "sparkly", although I'm unsure about the import of this. I don't think I have ever seen a "matte" Gagarin, but the risk of a repro dial is putting me off. Here are three photos from the auction (I can't post links yet):
> 
> View attachment 10848938
> View attachment 10848946
> View attachment 10848962
> 
> 
> What do you think? The serial, geneva striping, ratchet wheel, date, crown, hands, and jewel setting all look good to me. Just that dial...


Hi,
I'm not such expert in Russian watches, but I think the balance cock is replaced. The slots of the screws of the anti-shock mechanism must be from the uper side (top). Also stripes look different, and the cock looks a little bit lose.
Otherwise, astonish condition!
Regards, Miro.


----------



## Straight_time

Sorry for getting late to the party, I am a little busy these days.... :-(

Looking at some watches in my collection to write this post, I noticed a detail (should I say "a pattern") which seems so obvious I' bang my head against a wall for having completely missed it until now. o|

Please just compare the LENGHT of sword-shaped hands vs. "spade tip" ones, and then have another look at the all the pictures referenced in these last posts: they should definitely belong to *original wristwatch dials* only, where the minute hands _ exactly _reaches the minutes scale.

As you know, pocket watches have larger dials; and on them, these shorter hands remain somehow "suspended on air", while longer spade-tipped ones do their job as they should. Of course, converted pocket-to-wrist watches (i.e. lugs added to a pocket case) don't follow this rule.

In light of this, I think I should revise my beliefs... I too thought that pre-war watches, no matter which, should have had ONLY ace-tipped hands fitted on them; now, I'm definitely not that sure anymore. :think:


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> In light of this, I think I should revise my beliefs... I too thought that pre-war watches, no matter which, should have had ONLY ace-tipped hands fitted on them; now, I'm definitely not that sure anymore.


Your confusion is reassuring, comrade. Here's my theory of Type-1 hand evolution:


Pocket watches and pocket watch conversions -- Only spade-shaped hands. As mentioned, these are the only hands of sufficient length to reach the minute track.
Early Type-1 saucepan -- These also used spade-shaped hands, though clipped to size*. These can be considered a "hybrid" or "transitional" design, using parts from both pocket watches (movement, hands) and wristwatches (dial, case).
"Pure" Type-1 saucepans -- Aside from the movement, all components would have been pure saucepan: "pointy" hands, dial, and case were all designed solely for the wristwatch variant.
Of course, this is ignoring cathedral/lumed hands, which should never be found on a pocket watch or conversion (as far as I know), and only on saucepan wristwatch designs with hollow numbers. This theory also ignores any systematic research, such as a survey of dates to establish when the pointy hands were first introduced. If there's considerable overlap in usage, it's a possibility that both hands were used interchangeably during war years; whatever was available to meet demand.

*See below for evidence of this "clipping"; the elongated tips are removed so that the minute hand will fit inside the saucepan case and the hour hand will match. This would have been labor intensive, which perhaps prompted the Soviets to redesign a new hand set that was a better fit (literally) for the saucepan case.


----------



## Straight_time

Sorry Dashiell, I edited my post (modified a part of it without modifying the rest accordingly, the result was totally unintelligible..) while you were still writing yours.
Could you please revise my quoted text inside your message to avoid further confusion? ;-)



As per the part of your theory about "clipped" hands, I'd have some doubts... it would have really been a time consuming procedure for a factory, isn't it more likely that they could be one-off(s) replacements (also from that era) by some watchmaker? They aren't to be found in quantities nowadays, compared to other -apparently- more "standard" versions.

Let's not also forget that original wristwatches, at least until war's ending, were supposedly meant for the military only -no traces of them on any of the pre-war catalogs currently available. It shouldn't have been easy for a civilian watchmaker to have access to miltary parts, I'd guess...


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> As per the part of your theory about "clipped" hands, I'd have some doubts... it would have really been a time consuming procedure for a factory, isn't it more likely that they could be one-off(s) replacements (also from that era) by some watchmaker? They aren't to be found in quantities nowadays, compared to other -apparently- more "standard" versions.


Hm, I think all the pocket watch hands on my saucepan Type-1s look clipped. I've always thought this because of the inconsistency in length -- some have a bit more of their tip than others. Unfortunately, I don't have access to these watches to inspect closer.











Straight_time said:


> Let's not also forget that original wristwatches, at least until war's ending, were supposedly meant for the military only -no traces of them on any of the pre-war catalogs currently available. It shouldn't have been easy for a civilian watchmaker to have access to miltary parts, I'd guess...


I've been tempted by this logic as well, but I don't think it very well explains the dials with solid numbers, no lume, and no 24-hour scale. These appear distinctly civilian to me, or at least far less functional as true "tool" watches -- though I realize that, lacking further evidence, this argument isn't very strong. (Second collage thanks to ill-phil)



















Straight_time said:


> Sorry Dashiell, I edited my post (modified a part of it without modifying the rest accordingly, the result was totally unintelligible..) while you were still writing yours.
> Could you please revise my quoted text inside your message to avoid further confusion? ;-)


Done


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Your confusion is reassuring, comrade. Here's my theory of Type-1 hand evolution:
> 
> 
> Pocket watches and pocket watch conversions -- Only spade-shaped hands. As mentioned, these are the only hands of sufficient length to reach the minute track.
> Early Type-1 saucepan -- These also used spade-shaped hands, though clipped to size*. These can be considered a "hybrid" or "transitional" design, using parts from both pocket watches (movement, hands) and wristwatches (dial, case).
> "Pure" Type-1 saucepans -- Aside from the movement, all components would have been pure saucepan: "pointy" hands, dial, and case were all designed solely for the wristwatch variant.
> Of course, this is ignoring cathedral/lumed hands, which should never be found on a pocket watch or conversion (as far as I know), and only on saucepan wristwatch designs with hollow numbers. This theory also ignores any systematic research, such as a survey of dates to establish when the pointy hands were first introduced. If there's considerable overlap in usage, it's a possibility that both hands were used interchangeably during war years; whatever was available to meet demand.
> 
> *See below for evidence of this "clipping"; the elongated tips are removed so that the minute hand will fit inside the saucepan case and the hour hand will match. This would have been labor intensive, which perhaps prompted the Soviets to redesign a new hand set that was a better fit (literally) for the saucepan case.
> 
> View attachment 10894409


I observe that on the Kirovskie pocket watch conversion the end of the minute hand is "rice grain" shape while on sauce pan on the right, the end is "teardrop". In this instance one could not come from the other by "clipping". I haven't the time to check other pocket watches to see if this holds.


----------



## Straight_time

mroatman said:


> Hm, I think all the pocket watch hands on my saucepan Type-1s look clipped. I've always thought this because of the inconsistency in length -- some have a bit more of their tip than others. Unfortunately, I don't have access to these watches to inspect closer.


Q- Shouldn't the fact that hands are unevenly clipped sound as a potential further sign of various DIY works, rather than factory modifications?



> I've been tempted by this logic as well, but I don't think it very well explains the dials with solid numbers, no lume, and no 24-hour scale. These appear distinctly civilian to me, or at least far less functional as true "tool" watches -- though I realize that, lacking further evidence, this argument isn't very strong. (Second collage thanks to ill-phil)


Watchout... I was referring to *pre-war* wristwatches.

This immediately disqualifies 2 watches of yours (the 3rd with Chistopol-branded dial, and the 1st which, I'd bet on it, should have a 1947-49 Chistopol movement inside); altough it's worth noticing that they follow the "sword shaped hands" rule.

The other 2 watches, welllllll...... I realize I'm not throwing just a stone, but rather a boulder into the proverbial pond, but...

I know your Mockba is an extremely rare example (the only other I can think of is Mark Gordon's #0367) and I'm very envious of you for it, but can't help noticing that its recessed subdial is waaaay larger than it should, making the 60-seconds scale looking completely out of place and heavily affecting the 8 and 10 indexes. 
Something hardly seen (if ever at all) on accurate pre-war 1GChZ productions.

Adding oddity to oddity, on Mark Gordon's example the subdial is NOT recessed.
So we have the two Mockbas which, despite having very likely been produced in very few pieces, don't have a "regular" dial disk -in TWO different ways. 
Hmmm.... :think:

Ill-Phil's watch shares its oddity with Mark Gordon's: a completely plain subdial.
I just don't know... to the very best of my memory, I can't think of many early Type-1 with that feature; or, to tell it all, I can't think of any which, for one reason or another, didn't make me want to keep a yellow or a red card ready at hand.

But maybe it's just me getting too suspicious (and I'd hope so).


----------



## mroatman

Straight_time said:


> Q- Shouldn't the fact that hands are unevenly clipped sound as a potential further sign of various DIY works, rather than factory modifications?


Well, I was thinking these pocket watch hands were a stopgap until the "pure" saucepan hands were developed -- so a sort of "DIY at the factory" :-s I'm now realizing how ridiculous this all sounds, but I'm really struggling to come up with something better. The idea that 4/4 of my spoon-hand watches are franken, including the "paratrooper" model, is a tough pill to swallow.



Straight_time said:


> the 1st which, I'd bet on it, should have a 1947-49 Chistopol movement inside)


No, the movement is definitely war-era, the same as those found on "paratrooper" models (or at least these: 1, 2, 3, 4). But that doesn't mean the movement is original.



Straight_time said:


> I know your Mockba is an extremely rare example (the only other I can think of is Mark Gordon's #0367) and I'm very envious of you for it, but can't help noticing that its recessed subdial is waaaay larger than it should, making the 60-seconds scale looking completely out of place and heavily affecting the 8 and 10 indexes.
> Something hardly seen (if ever at all) on accurate pre-war 1GChZ productions.
> Adding oddity to oddity, on Mark Gordon's example the subdial is NOT recessed.
> So we have the two Mockbas which, despite having very likely been produced in very few pieces, don't have a "regular" dial disk -in TWO different ways.
> Hmmm.... :think:


If you are suggesting these dials aren't from the factory, I could certainly entertain the idea that they are the work of an artel. Maybe if I inspected a little closer, I'd see the dial is made of paper. My watch was sold as "parts or repair" for not a ton of money, so the seller certainly didn't value it the way I do. And another thing -- the hands on both mine and Mark's watch seem far too big for the dials. Below is his for reference. The _hour_ hand reaches to the minute track...









Of course, there are two other versions of this dial I've seen (1, 2), but neither have the same hands and mine/Mark's. That said, Lucidor's actually has the "ABB" artel marking on the case back, so maybe there's something to this artel theory after all.



Straight_time said:


> Ill-Phil's watch shares its oddity with Mark Gordon's: a completely plain subdial.
> I just don't know... to the very best of my memory, I can't think of many early Type-1 with that feature; or, to tell it all, I can't think of any which, for one reason or another, didn't make me want to keep a yellow or a red card ready at hand.


I guess I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "early", but the flat/plain subdials aren't so rare, I don't think: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 <-- and that's in my collection alone.

>>> By the way, I suppose this is as good a time as any to mention that there wasn't just *one* saucepan case style. At least two case designs existed in slightly different styles. I can't remember the specifics of the distinction (one was definitely more rounded, less angular), but I do remember reaching this revelation sometime last year. Maybe this is the answer to our question about which hands belong where. Or maybe this just lends more support to the notion that artels were making their own dials _and _cases.


----------



## kev80e

Try as I might I just can't shake the 24 hour bug. Hopefully this one is correct, if so I might see what I can get it for.




















Now something I'm not considering buying but was asked about. I think the hands are replaced, lume difference and in fact the whole thing is 're cased . Note this little cut out , to fit round a date window?


----------



## mroatman

Don't know about the BAM, but the Raketa 24-hour looks good to me. You might wish you had waited for a better dial, but if you feel confident about that, I'd say go for it


----------



## elsoldemayo

Is the chromed case on the 24hr correct? All the usual reference sources only show it in a gold plated case.


----------



## Arizone

kev80e said:


> Note this little cut out , to fit round a date window?


I wouldn't put it past Vostok to be a little lazy at times. Since Amphibians frequently came without the date function, and there's not simply an open window like it was swapped with a Komandirskie, I think it might be original.


----------



## kev80e

Thanks Dashiell, I'm not sure how I will get on with a 24 hour so this would be kind d of a starter . Could be flipped later for a better one if I like it. 
I believe the chrome case is correct elsoldemayo. But yes mostly Sen in golden ones.


----------



## kev80e

Arizone said:


> I wouldn't put it past Vostok to be a little lazy at times. Since Amphibians frequently came without the date function, and there's not simply an open window like it was swapped with a Komandirskie, I think it might be original.


You could well be right. Looking again the colours match up to the dial. The hands I'm pretty sure are not it's original. That cut out would bother me though.


----------



## dutchassasin

Personally think the BAM dial is legit.

Two other examples:








Slightly different, no years on the dial





more faded example

This one seems to have the same text stamped on a amphibia caseback like this bam version:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/soviet-watch-vostok-wostok-baikal-amur-mainline-2170282.html


----------



## kev80e

Thanks dutchassasin. Can't argue with that evidence. The dial actually looks better faded, not a fan of them stars on it. I will pass on all your information to the person who asked me about it.

Your right about the case back. I'd actually forgotten about this , got lost somewhere in my notes on mine . Really need to get more organized.


----------



## dutchassasin

kev80e said:


> Thanks dutchassasin. Can't argue with that evidence. The dial actually looks better faded, not a fan of them stars on it. I will pass on all your information to the person who asked me about it.


Check my observation about the caseback. The one from Morozow has a standard caseback while the youtube one seems to have a special one.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> I believe the chrome case is correct elsoldemayo. But yes mostly Sen in golden ones.


Yeah, I think this Raketa 24-hour was produced in both chrome and gold-plated cases.

And as if more evidence were needed to justify the strange "ghost" date window on the BAM, I just remembered some versions of the Slava Bikonur suffer from a similar malady:

















If the bright red stars on the BAM dial are unattractive to the potential buyer, advise him/her to set the watch in a bright window sill, dial up, and leave it there for a few months. That weak red pigment should be bleached in no time (unless, of course, you live in a place with as little sun as the UK -- in which case, it may take a few thousand years).

I remember another forum member applying this "treatment" to his own watch with great, natural-looking results. Unfortunately, it's an irreversible process and kind of sad to artificially/intentionally age such a well-preserved dial.


----------



## kev80e

Thanks Dashiell . It seems parts were made on a one size fits all basis. The stars are my own feelings on that dial it just seems a little busy .


----------



## Aidanm

What can people tell me about this? I just won the auction. I went ahead as I've wanted a flatter Soviet caseback for a 2414/2409 custom build and I liked the look of this case.

I'm just curious now in the watch as a whole.

Kind regards,

Aidan

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

Aidanm said:


> What can people tell me about this? I just won the auction. I went ahead as I've wanted a flatter Soviet caseback for a 2414/2409 custom build and I liked the look of this case.
> I'm just curious now in the watch as a whole.
> Kind regards,
> Aidan


Hey Aidan -- looks like a reproduction dial and "relumed" hands (red paint). Everything else looks good.

Good luck with your custom build!


----------



## Stevecru

Any thoughts on this saucepan? I can see there are a couple of screws missing and the gears are recessed rather than flat, which I believe is incorrect. Any other analysis?
Thanks for the help!
d


----------



## mroatman

Stevecru said:


> Any thoughts on this saucepan? I can see there are a couple of screws missing and the gears are recessed rather than flat, which I believe is incorrect. Any other analysis?
> Thanks for the help!


You mean these?









Those are the case screws for fitting into a pocket watch case. As this watch represents a repurposing of this movement's original function, it's okay that they're absent. It's not incorrect.

Some will argue that these "excavated" wheels are not appropriate for this movement, but I disagree. Looks perfect to me. A nice war-era example, complete with the small lumed second hand, usually replaced.

I also have a watch produced around the exact same time, Q4-1940. You can compare the movements if you like: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/museum-piece-2635034.html


----------



## dutchassasin

Been on the hunt for a hammer and sickle ufo for quite sometime now. Today two appeared on the bay but they are different. 
Empty space between top of hammer and angled part. (follow the top line of the hammer to right)









Reference picture from Samun.









Glossy dial,









Matte dial,

Legit or bootleg?


----------



## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> Been on the hunt for a hammer and sickle ufo for quite sometime now. Today two appeared on the bay but they are different.
> Empty space between top of hammer and angled part. (follow the top line of the hammer to right)
> Legit or bootleg?


Funny, samun's example looks the most suspicious to me due to what appears to be pixellated, low-quality printing (especially on the "60 лет CCCP" part).

I think all three are probably fine. Maybe the second hand on #2 should be black like the others.


----------



## Sikorsky

Is this a proper vintage vostok amphibia 420307?


----------



## schnurrp

Sikorsky said:


> Is this a proper vintage vostok amphibia 420307?


I believe that dial was taken from a komandirskie so the answer to your question is no, not authentic.

Welcome to the forum.


----------



## Red Clubbie

schnurrp said:


> I believe that dial was taken from a komandirskie so the answer to your question is no, not authentic.
> 
> Welcome to the forum.


Looks like a Komandirskie Parratrooper dial......

Cheers,
Geoff.


----------



## Sikorsky

Thanks for your answers, I am a little confused because meranom.com is showing the same watch with the green paratrooper dial https://meranom.com/en/amphibian-classic/420/vostok-watch-amphibian-classic-420307.html this led me to believe it is an authentic model.


----------



## Sikorsky

I think I found the answer in this thread:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vost...1149106.html#/topics/1149106?page=1&_k=njg2kt
Early 90s combination of komandirskie dial with amphibia.


----------



## NeoSeoul2084

I purchased this for £20 from Ukraine about a month ago. It was advertised as a MIR Slim Vostok 2209 1964

I believe the condition is too good for it to be original.



http://imgur.com/ufGkb


----------



## schnurrp

NeoSeoul2084 said:


> I purchased this for £20 from Ukraine about a month ago. It was advertised as a MIR Slim Vostok 2209 1964
> 
> I believe the condition is too good for it to be original.
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/ufGkb


I also cannot recall of the top of my head, ever having seen the Wostok rocket logo in white on a black dial, although I may be wrong.

It appears authentic otherwise and in pretty decent condition. Might be worth the 20 pounds if it's running good and keeping good time. If so, be on the lookout for an authentic 2209 with a good dial and maybe bad case and not running good you can buy cheap and combine with yours.


----------



## mroatman

NeoSeoul2084 said:


> I purchased this for £20 from Ukraine about a month ago. It was advertised as a MIR Slim Vostok 2209 1964
> I believe the condition is too good for it to be original.
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/ufGkb


Yes, unfortunately a repainted dial. Why advertise a MIR with a Wostok dial? Strange.

An original MIR would have a white, Cyrillic dial, as well as a second hand with clover base.









In my opinion.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Yes, unfortunately a repainted dial. Why advertise a MIR with a Wostok dial? Strange.
> 
> An original MIR would have a white, Cyrillic dial, as well as a second hand with clover base.
> 
> View attachment 11006834
> 
> 
> In my opinion.


In defense of the MIR/Vostok name mixup, there are some old hands (I guess I may be beginning to creep in that direction) who refer to any Chistopol 2209 in its characteristic case as a "MIR" after the first named watch in which the 2209 debuted, just as they will call a First Moscow 2209 ultra slim watch a "Vympel" regardless of what's written on the dial.


----------



## Wat394f

Hi everyone, new member here looking to purchase this one as a gift for my brother. Does it seems genuine or franken to you?


----------



## mariomart

Wat394f said:


> Hi everyone, new member here looking to purchase this one as a gift for my brother. Does it seems genuine or franken to you?


I do believe it's looks mostly original. The only doubt is the color of the hands. I believe they should be silver hands with a red second hand (however a silver second hand is not out of the question), but the style of the hands appear correct.

Here is a scan of the 1980 Vostok catalog showing this watch with 2414A movement.

Nice looking watch by the way


----------



## Wat394f

mariomart said:


> I do believe it's looks mostly original. The only doubt is the color of the hands. I believe they should be silver hands with a red second hand (however a silver second hand is not out of the question), but the style of the hands appear correct.
> 
> Here is a scan of the 1980 Vostok catalog showing this watch with 2414A movement.
> 
> Nice looking watch by the way
> 
> View attachment 11053338


Thank you very much, your insight is greatly appreciated


----------



## mariomart

Wat394f said:


> Thank you very much, your insight is greatly appreciated


Not a problem.

Don't let the issue of the hands get in the way of buying it, you can easily and cheaply change the hands. Even do it yourself. I have a few spare silver hands I'd be happy to send to you for free if you want to take that path. An honest watchmaker should be able to do it cheaply as well, depending on which country you are in.


----------



## Wat394f

mariomart said:


> Not a problem.
> 
> Don't let the issue of the hands get in the way of buying it, you can easily and cheaply change the hands. Even do it yourself. I have a few spare silver hands I'd be happy to send to you for free if you want to take that path. An honest watchmaker should be able to do it cheaply as well, depending on which country you are in.
> 
> View attachment 11053498


Thank you very much, you have a pm


----------



## sideways2

Trying to catch up on some reading...can someone just confirm this...seems like there are a lot of this style and as long as the three top bars are straight we are looking at an authentic dial?? Is that right?? I see some that are more rounded in the middle as opposed to straight bars...

Thanks kindly!!!


----------



## schnurrp

sideways2 said:


> Trying to catch up on some reading...can someone just confirm this...seems like there are a lot of this style and as long as the three top bars are straight we are looking at an authentic dial?? Is that right?? I see some that are more rounded in the middle as opposed to straight bars...
> 
> Thanks kindly!!!
> 
> View attachment 11057378
> 
> 
> View attachment 11057386


I hope you can see what I'm talking about in this picture from a 1970 catalog. The slashes have straight sides ending in points. The reproduction dials, the two you've shown, have curved sides on the slashes.









and this one in my collection:


----------



## kev80e

So this is obviously a converted pocket watch , and the seller claims from WW II , the usual made up selling pitch. The dial doesn't look printed , more stamped out? Is there any information on when this would have been done? i.e. last week or a few years ago. The coat of arms is Ministry of Railways. The hands look awful but no big deal, see loads of these around . 
I've this type of thing before and often wondered.


----------



## sideways2

schnurrp said:


> I hope you can see what I'm talking about in this picture from a 1970 catalog. The slashes have straight sides ending in points. The reproduction dials, the two you've shown, have curved sides on the slashes.
> 
> View attachment 11057578
> 
> 
> and this one in my collection:


Yup...totally see...thank you!!

Going to be tough finding one...I haven't run across one yet on the bay...


----------



## sideways2

To add...it's funny how a seller will have both in his inventory listed...obviously the "right" one at a higher price...

Has there been a guideline put out there that I haven't come across yet or is this thread it??


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> So this is obviously a converted pocket watch , and the seller claims from WW II , the usual made up selling pitch. The dial doesn't look printed , more stamped out? Is there any information on when this would have been done? i.e. last week or a few years ago. The coat of arms is Ministry of Railways. The hands look awful but no big deal, see loads of these around .
> I've this type of thing before and often wondered.


I'd say last week.

Here's an example of a seller pushing many such dials: patina2004 | eBay


----------



## mroatman

sideways2 said:


> Has there been a guideline put out there that I haven't come across yet or is this thread it??


Maybe this helps: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-de-lux-2209-a-3851594.html. Just bear in mind that the discussion refers to the Poljot variant of this watch, and there are a few notable differences (e.g. case backs, case materials, and logos).


----------



## schnurrp

sideways2 said:


> Yup...totally see...thank you!!
> 
> Going to be tough finding one...I haven't run across one yet on the bay...


I don't know where you're looking but I took a quick peek and saw 5 or 6 in the first 5 pages that appeared to have authentic dials (not vouching for the authenticity of the rest of the watch parts, varies). For instance, I believe this one is authentic although more like mid-70s going by the movement, and from from a seller that has numerous repro dials for sale. Also catalog picture below. Slashes are parallel straight for a time but become "pointy" quicker. They're also more pronounced and logo is heavier. Wish I had a better catalog picture.

Movement consistent with mid-70s.









Bolder slashes and logo to my eye and a reddish tint to the second hand with black hour and number hands. 1974 catalog:


----------



## sideways2

Hey...thank you so much...I really do see it...

I'm on the bay right now...Luch watch rendered me 1215 results...I found some black ones yes...and a couple gold faced...not the one you just pulled though...

May I ask how much it is??


----------



## sideways2

mroatman said:


> Maybe this helps: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-de-lux-2209-a-3851594.html. Just bear in mind that the discussion refers to the Poljot variant of this watch, and there are a few notable differences (e.g. case backs, case materials, and logos).


That's great...thank you!!


----------



## schnurrp

sideways2 said:


> Hey...thank you so much...I really do see it...
> 
> I'm on the bay right now...Luch watch rendered me 1215 results...I found some black ones yes...and a couple gold faced...not the one you just pulled though...
> 
> May I ask how much it is??


VINTAGE MEN'S BIG GOLD-PLATED RUSSIAN MECHANICAL LUCH (LUCZ) WATCH 23 JEWELS! | eBay

Looks to have an authentic crown and back marked for the Polish market, I believe. Crystal is probably a replacement but that's common. Make an offer, I almost did...


----------



## sideways2

Surprised it never showed up in my search...wonder why??

I know I shop the Canadian site but I do make sure I check off for International...


----------



## sideways2

These are a few I'm hunting at the moment LOL!!


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Bolder slashes and logo to my eye and a reddish tint to the second hand with black hour and number hands. 1974 catalog:


Had I not seen the catalog, I would said black hands on this dial are absolutely incorrect. But it's hard to argue with that kind of evidence. Still, I'd say gold hands on this dial are much, much more common, and definitely authentic as well.



sideways2 said:


> I'm on the bay right now...Luch watch rendered me 1215 results...I found some black ones yes...and a couple gold faced...not the one you just pulled though...


Better search for "Luch 2209" instead.



sideways2 said:


> Surprised it never showed up in my search...wonder why??
> I know I shop the Canadian site but I do make sure I check off for International...


Unfortunately, the "International" checkbox only gets you so far. Hardcore eBay enthusiasts will tell you to check all the big sites: eBay.ca, eBay.co.uk, eBay.de, eBay.es, eBay.ie, eBay.fr, eBay.it, eBay.com, and so on. For whatever reason, some products are only displayed if you are on the proper country-specific site.


----------



## sideways2

> Unfortunately, the "International" checkbox only gets you so far. Hardcore eBay enthusiasts will tell you to check all the big sites: eBay.ca, eBay.co.uk, eBay.de, eBay.es, eBay.ie, eBay.fr, eBay.it, eBay.com, and so on. For whatever reason, some products are only displayed if you are on the proper country-specific site.


Ah...get ya!!

What do you think so far of my morning bookmarks??

Purely only seeking stuff I like and would wear...everything I have I would wear


----------



## sideways2

And this to...


----------



## mroatman

sideways2 said:


> What do you think so far of my morning bookmarks??
> Purely only seeking stuff I like and would wear...everything I have I would wear


This is definitely a personal call, but I think if you stick with Soviet watches for a while, you'll have wished you waited for some watches in a bit better condition. They're definitely out there, and not too difficult to find. The one exception would be that green-dialed Vostok with above, which looks quite nice.


----------



## Dimy

sideways2 said:


> And this to...


 The Luch have non matching and poorly installed crown. The rest are fine. The first ZIM is nice and somewhat rare.
Ebay.ca sucks. Use .com as it gives you the most results you can get.


----------



## sideways2

Thank you all...much appreciated!!


----------



## sideways2

mroatman said:


> The one exception would be that green-dialed Vostok with above, which looks quite nice.


Ya well...I guess we'll see...I just won that auction LOL!!

Blue and a greenie...not bad for my first two


----------



## LZG

Pobeda sturmanskies? Those have to be frakens don't they? I've been seeing them all over the place lately with a few others that seem a bit off.


----------



## mroatman

LZG said:


> Pobeda sturmanskies? Those have to be frakens don't they?


Yes, fantasy dials.


----------



## willjackson

This Vostok is 100% authentic, except for the dial.










In Ukrainian it says " For Head Regional of State Administration ". It is clearly a laminated dial, a sticker. I picked it up because I was intrigued as to what was behind it. I noticed quickly that it was a sticker because the date window looks like (and was) cut out with a knife.










Two years ago I wasn't experienced enough to catch that. I thought I could help some novices out there.










The backside of the dial clearly shows the original (I think I can make out the words Boctok).

A franken? I dont think so. Just a sticker on an old Boctok. But helpful I hope!

I am one with The Force, The Force is with me.


----------



## mariomart

I'm a Vostok fan through and through, but whilst perusing the internets today I came across this Pobeda. There is something about it that really appeals to me, but I know nothing about them, so how genuine is it?

Thanks in advance


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> I'm a Vostok fan through and through, but whilst perusing the internets today I came across this Pobeda. There is something about it that really appeals to me, but I know nothing about them, so how genuine is it?


By my estimation, 150% original. Also produced in a non-lumed form.

From the 1960 catalog:


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> By my estimation, 150% original. Also produced in a non-lumed form.
> From the 1960 catalog:


Thanks Dashiell 

I noticed the only difference between your exquisite example and the one I spotted is the addition of the "15 Jewels" under the Pobeda brand. Is this just a variation for a different market?

Your dial is a thing of beauty, however the patina on my find is near on perfect, obviously my own opinion


----------



## kev80e

mariomart said:


> I'm a Vostok fan through and through, but whilst perusing the internets today I came across this Pobeda. There is something about it that really appeals to me, but I know nothing about them, so how genuine is it?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> View attachment 11109178
> 
> 
> View attachment 11109186


.
I've been a vostok fan too but find myself branching off a little lately. This is very nice , and I've noticed the "others" that I seem drawn to have lumed dials in the main. Thanks for adding to my to be considered list.


----------



## sideways2

There are a lot of Pobeda and Zim's I've come across and really liked!! I think I have about a dozen bookmarked


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> I noticed the only difference between your exquisite example and the one I spotted is the addition of the "15 Jewels" under the Pobeda brand. Is this just a variation for a different market? Your dial is a thing of beauty, however the patina on my find is near on perfect, obviously my own opinion


Agreed, "yours" definitely has a nicer patina (I hope I can remove the quotes soon). Nice strap, too. The unusually bright green color of the hand lume has me scratching my head, but mine seems to show an equally....radioactive color.

There's actually another difference to the dial: "2моск.час.з-д" rather than "Сделано в СССР". I can't remember the exact quarter this change took place, but if we are to believe both watches have their original movements, then we know it happened sometime in 1958. Both watches would be for the Russian market, as far as I know.

The logo on your movement is different from mine as well:









Regardless of these differences, both watches appear authentic to me.


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Agreed, "yours" definitely has a nicer patina (I hope I can remove the quotes soon). Nice strap, too. The unusually bright green color of the hand lume has me scratching my head, but mine seems to show an equally....radioactive color.
> 
> There's actually another difference to the dial: "2моск.час.з-д" rather than "Сделано в СССР". I can't remember the exact quarter this change took place, but if we are to believe both watches have their original movements, then we know it happened sometime in 1958. Both watches would be for the Russian market, as far as I know.
> 
> The logo on your movement is different from mine as well:
> 
> Regardless of these differences, both watches appear authentic to me.


Well, I liked it so much that I made the seller an offer, which he accepted, so it appears I now own my first Pobeda. This can only spell trouble ....


----------



## OrangeOrange

Looking to collect watches again. Found this nice pocket watch.
Auctiva Image Hosting
Auctiva Image Hosting


----------



## mroatman

OrangeOrange said:


> Looking to collect watches again. Found this nice pocket watch.
> Auctiva Image Hosting
> Auctiva Image Hosting


Looks perfect. A nice Q4-1949 example from 2MWF. Price including shipping a little on the high side, but it's not too often you find one of these manufactured pre-1950.


----------



## Straight_time

mariomart said:


> Well, I liked it so much that I made the seller an offer, which he accepted, so it appears I now own my first Pobeda. This can only spell trouble ....


Welcome to the Club. :-d


----------



## Arizone

willjackson said:


> This Vostok is 100% authentic, except for the dial.
> 
> In Ukrainian it says " For Head Regional of State Administration ". It is clearly a laminated dial, a sticker. I picked it up because I was intrigued as to what was behind it. I noticed quickly that it was a sticker because the date window looks like (and was) cut out with a knife.
> 
> Two years ago I wasn't experienced enough to catch that. I thought I could help some novices out there.
> 
> The backside of the dial clearly shows the original (I think I can make out the words Boctok).
> 
> A franken? I dont think so. Just a sticker on an old Boctok. But helpful I hope!
> 
> I am one with The Force, The Force is with me.


Vostok has frequently produced custom watches, and to ease production they probably did somehow print some of them. The holographic dial models I think are the best example of low quality including the date window, although I don't have a good picture on hand. The same ugly case and bezel too, so the same production era. The imprints on the back of the dial not matching has occurred in other watches, and I think was just the factory recuperating any parts they could. If not Vostok themselves then a subsidiary like today's Vostok Design who seem to use similar low standards on their custom watches, and strangely enough also holograms. I would say the last piece of evidence is the matching black hands which are not impossible to source but less likely in a simple hack job, which a hack job alone is less likely unless someone was really dedicated to this random head of administration.


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> The holographic dial models I think are the best example of low quality including the date window, although I don't have a good picture on hand.


At your service.

Very Rare watch VOSTOK 1945-1995 Anniversary 50 year WW2 SHINE Dial Serviced | eBay


----------



## kev80e

Arizone said:


> Vostok has frequently produced custom watches, and to ease production they probably did somehow print some of them. The holographic dial models I think are the best example of low quality including the date window, although I don't have a good picture on hand. The same ugly case and bezel too, so the same production era. The imprints on the back of the dial not matching has occurred in other watches, and I think was just the factory recuperating any parts they could. If not Vostok themselves then a subsidiary like today's Vostok Design who seem to use similar low standards on their custom watches, and strangely enough also holograms. I would say the last piece of evidence is the matching black hands which are not impossible to source but less likely in a simple hack job, which a hack job alone is less likely unless someone was really dedicated to this random head of administration.


.
A poorly cut date window wasn't unusual either. These two from different sellers. When I saw the first one I thought it was cut out after production but another the same, and others I found suggest not.


----------



## OrangeOrange

mroatman said:


> Looks perfect. A nice Q4-1949 example from 2MWF. Price including shipping a little on the high side, but it's not too often you find one of these manufactured pre-1950.


Should I be worried that there is no Made in USSR in cyrllic?


----------



## mroatman

OrangeOrange said:


> Should I be worried that there is no Made in USSR in cyrllic?


No, that's totally normal.


----------



## Arizone

Arizone said:


> Vostok has frequently produced custom watches, and to ease production they probably did somehow print some of them. The holographic dial models I think are the best example of low quality including the date window, although I don't have a good picture on hand. The same ugly case and bezel too, so the same production era. The imprints on the back of the dial not matching has occurred in other watches, and I think was just the factory recuperating any parts they could. If not Vostok themselves then a subsidiary like today's Vostok Design who seem to use similar low standards on their custom watches, and strangely enough also holograms. I would say the last piece of evidence is the matching black hands which are not impossible to source but less likely in a simple hack job, which a hack job alone is less likely unless someone was really dedicated to this random head of administration.


Another great example of the same type of dial being used but at least cleaner made.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=39496066


----------



## OrangeOrange

What about this?


----------



## mroatman

OrangeOrange said:


> However, the regulator plate (whatever it's called) looks different from the rest of the "plates" of the watch.


I think the term you're looking for is "balance cock" or "balance bridge".

Everything looks fine to me, though you're right, it's hard to see the finish on the balance cock. It should have a similar finish as the other bridges. The lighting may be playing tricks on us -- I think it's a good one.


----------



## OrangeOrange

Nevermind this post. Seller deleted the item.


----------



## svorkoetter

Fake dial? Strela Poljot 3017 1MChZ Chronograph USSR Pilot Cosmonaut Vintage Watch | eBay


----------



## mroatman

svorkoetter said:


> Fake dial? Strela Poljot 3017 1MChZ Chronograph USSR Pilot Cosmonaut Vintage Watch | eBay


Yes. Hour and minute hands, too.


----------



## Camulos

Hey all,

I was looking at this: (edit: can't post link as I'm a new member. It's on UK Etsy, called '
Poljot Shturmanskie Gagarin wrist watch Vintage 1956 USSR RARE Serviced & oiled'£76.30









Seller says the face was repainted but otherwise all original (apart from strap, of course).

Does this look ok? Right price? It's my first Russian watch purpose so want it to be a good one 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Camulos

Another picture:


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Hey all,
> I was looking at this: (edit: can't post link as I'm a new member. It's on UK Etsy, called '
> *Poljot Shturmanskie Gagarin wrist watch Vintage 1956 USSR RARE Serviced & oiled'*
> £76.30
> Seller says the face was repainted but otherwise all original (apart from strap, of course).
> Does this look ok? Right price? It's my first Russian watch purpose so want it to be a good one
> Thanks in advance!


Welcome, Camulos!

Good move asking here first -- that watch is a fake and definitely not worth the asking price. It has a knockoff/reproduction dial, modern hands, and an incorrect movement. Better keep looking (and posting |>).

Good luck!


----------



## Camulos

Oh my goodness. Thanks! Looks like this is going to be a bit of a minefield. Any tips on what to look for? I just liked the idea of having a Russian watch from the 50s/60s.

How about this one? 













POBEDA BLACK DIAL MILITARY WATCH VTG SOVIET RUSSIAN RARE USSR COLD WAR ERA 1954y

Thanks


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Oh my goodness. Thanks! Looks like this is going to be a bit of a minefield. Any tips on what to look for? I just liked the idea of having a Russian watch from the 50s/60s.
> How about this one?
> *POBEDA BLACK DIAL MILITARY WATCH VTG SOVIET RUSSIAN RARE USSR COLD WAR ERA 1954y*
> Thanks


A reprinted dial, most likely. Notice how the "Pobeda" text is pretty blurry and there's no place of manufacture at the bottom of the dial (e.g. "1MWF from Kirova" or "Made in USSR"). This dial is very convincing, but comparing to originals (e.g. here and here), hopefully you can see the differences. The movement/case/crown look fine.

It is a minefield, but keep reading and asking questions, and soon you'll be able to easily identify the fakes.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> A reprinted dial, most likely. Notice how the "Pobeda" text is pretty blurry and there's no place of manufacture at the bottom of the dial (e.g. "1MWF from Kirova" or "Made in USSR"). This dial is very convincing, but comparing to originals (e.g. here and here), hopefully you can see the differences. The movement/case/crown look fine.
> 
> It is a minefield, but keep reading and asking questions, and soon you'll be able to easily identify the fakes.


What struck me most about that dial is how close in color the dial number printing is to the hand lume. This gave it a look of authenticity to me. The "Pobeda" and hour and minute marks appear to be printed in a lighter color. A two color reprint is less likely. Most but not all Pobedas had the place of manufacture printed on the dial. There's this one in mroatman's collection that I assume is authentic:


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> What struck me most about that dial is how close in color the dial number printing is to the hand lume. This gave it a look of authenticity to me. The "Pobeda" and hour and minute marks appear to be printed in a lighter color. A two color reprint is less likely. Most but not all Pobedas had the place of manufacture printed on the dial. There's this one in mroatman's collection that I assume is authentic:


All excellent points, and a good reminder for anyone new to the game that things are rarely as clear-cut as they are for that "Sturmanskie" on the prior page.

With regard to the black-dialed Pobeda, though, are you playing Devil's Advocate or arguing for authenticity? I still think the watch is bogus. Those lumed hands are unfamiliar to me. In my opinion, they ought to be either super-skinny (for 1MWF production), sectioned into two parts (for 2MWF production), or the wide Sportivnie-style (photographed on my watch above).

The overall appearance reminds me of this one, another bogus entry in my book (can't say why, just get the feeling):









Then again, I cannot figure out to which watch those hands would otherwise belong, so maybe they're correct after all :think:


----------



## Ribosom

Hello all,

It is great that there is a forum with a thread such as this one. Very helpful for clueless ones like me.

Being fresh on the forum I can't post links yet, but here are two ebay items I am interested in:

162428873680
152470014639

I have my doubts especially regarding the bezel, but I will let the experts speak up.

Thanks a million!


----------



## Ribosom

Did my homework and I believe I can answer myself that both are as fake as can be.


----------



## dutchassasin

Ribosom said:


> Did my homework and I believe I can answer myself that both are as fake as can be.


Correct observation!


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> All excellent points, and a good reminder for anyone new to the game that things are rarely as clear-cut as they are for that "Sturmanskie" on the prior page.
> 
> With regard to the black-dialed Pobeda, though, are you playing Devil's Advocate or arguing for authenticity? I still think the watch is bogus. Those lumed hands are unfamiliar to me. In my opinion, they ought to be either super-skinny (for 1MWF production), sectioned into two parts (for 2MWF production), or the wide Sportivnie-style (photographed on my watch above).
> 
> The overall appearance reminds me of this one, another bogus entry in my book (can't say why, just get the feeling):
> 
> View attachment 11185202
> 
> 
> Then again, I cannot figure out to which watch those hands would otherwise belong, so maybe they're correct after all :think:


Definitely playing "Devil's Advocat" but in the sense that I am taking a position I don't necessarily agree with to stimulate further investigation.


----------



## Camulos

What do you guys think about this?



















USSR VOSTOK Komandirskie Amfibian Soviet Wrist Watch nж
Around £68. What do you think? What kind of age is this likely to be, 1980s?

thanks!


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Definitely playing "Devil's Advocat" but in the sense that I am taking a position I don't necessarily agree with to stimulate further investigation.


Just as I suspected b-)

I like it. I think we all need a bit of gentle prodding to advance the field.


----------



## ThePossumKing

Camulos said:


> What do you guys think about this?
> View attachment 11187282
> View attachment 11187298
> View attachment 11187314
> 
> USSR VOSTOK Komandirskie Amfibian Soviet Wrist Watch nж
> Around £68. What do you think? What kind of age is this likely to be, 1980s?
> 
> thanks!


Pretty sure that is a fake dial

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ThePossumKing

Camulos said:


> What do you guys think about this?
> View attachment 11187282
> View attachment 11187298
> View attachment 11187314
> 
> USSR VOSTOK Komandirskie Amfibian Soviet Wrist Watch nж
> Around £68. What do you think? What kind of age is this likely to be, 1980s?
> 
> thanks!


I'm pretty sure that that dial is fake

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lokifish

OK, I know very little about Soviet chronos outside of 3017/3133. So first off, what is this (looks like a pocket watch recase job)? Second, is this legit at all?

Dial
Movement

The description lists it as a +50mm case that's something like 15mm thick.  ?


----------



## Camulos

Thanks. Oh well. 3/3 are fake so far. I'm losing the will to continue looking!


----------



## Ribosom

Ok, now when I learned how to spot the blatant frankens, I need some assistance with the following specimens. To clarify a bit, I am looking for a vintage Vostok to use as a everyday beater during the warmer months. Manual wind or automatic, I don't care. I want it to be vintage but I am not anal about it being 100% original as long as it is not a abomination of old and new.

1.









2.





















3.















Thanks, I really appreciate the help, hopefully I will be able to return it one day.


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Thanks. Oh well. 3/3 are fake so far. I'm losing the will to continue looking!


Don't get discouraged. We all started there.

Try this. Pick a watch you like -- say, the Sturmanskie. Then, start your search not on eBay, but on Google. Run a search of "Sturmanskie watchuseek" to see what comes up. My guess? Tons of priceless information and articles that will help guide your decision. I still use this approach all the time to educate myself on a certain watch/type/configuration.


----------



## ThePossumKing

Lokifish said:


> OK, I know very little about Soviet chronos outside of 3017/3133. So first off, what is this (looks like a pocket watch recase job)? Second, is this legit at all?
> 
> Dial
> Movement
> 
> The description lists it as a +50mm case that's something like 15mm thick.  ?


I believe that is a recased Molnija pocket watch. The dial is a complete fake

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ThePossumKing

Ribosom said:


> Ok, now when I learned how to spot the blatant frankens, I need some assistance with the following specimens. To clarify a bit, I am looking for a vintage Vostok to use as a everyday beater during the warmer months. Manual wind or automatic, I don't care. I want it to be vintage but I am not anal about it being 100% original as long as it is not a abomination of old and new.
> 
> 1.
> 
> View attachment 11188930
> 
> 
> 2.
> 
> View attachment 11188890
> View attachment 11188898
> View attachment 11188906
> 
> 
> 3.
> 
> View attachment 11188914
> View attachment 11188922
> 
> 
> Thanks, I really appreciate the help, hopefully I will be able to return it one day.


#1 looks good as does #2, but I'm not sure #2's bezel belongs to that watch. #3 looks good as well, but may have newer hands

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Camulos

Does this look okay?
POBEDA-ZIM 2602 VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIAN MECHANICAL WRISTWATCH USSR


----------



## coupeborgward

Camulos said:


> Does this look okay?
> POBEDA-ZIM 2602 VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIAN MECHANICAL WRISTWATCH USSR
> 
> View attachment 11193874
> View attachment 11193882


not sure about the hour and minutes hand. they look very new but could be just the flash light reflecting


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Does this look okay?
> *POBEDA-ZIM 2602 VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIAN MECHANICAL WRISTWATCH USSR*


Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!! ?????????

That's a good one, inside and out. Looks 100% original to my eyes. Here's mine on some god-awful strap:


----------



## sideways2

I'll throw a couple in for this morning


----------



## mroatman

sideways2 said:


> I'll throw a couple in for this morning


First one is post-Soviet (notice "Made in Russia" at the bottom of the dial). That's all I know about that.

Second one has a replaced second hand and franken movement. Should be 15 jewels. See here and here.


----------



## sideways2

Didn't catch that about the first at all...thanks!!

Caught the second with the different second hand though...seen a few with different hands...wondered which was correct


----------



## schnurrp

sideways2 said:


> I'll throw a couple in for this morning
> 
> View attachment 11198098
> 
> 
> View attachment 11198106
> 
> 
> View attachment 11198114
> 
> 
> View attachment 11198122


The existence of what appears to be a lumed dot above "12" is a bit strange. I notice the catalog picture shows a dot, too.

A way to keep from putting your watch on upside down in the early morning darkness?


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> The existence of what appears to be a lumed dot above "12" is a bit strange. I notice the catalog picture shows a dot, too.
> A way to keep from putting your watch on upside down in the early morning darkness?


You know, I've never been able to make sense of that lume pip, but you may have it figured out.


----------



## sideways2

K...Let's see if I can go 3 for 3 lol!!


----------



## Camulos

Nice watch! Thanks for the response - however, can you believe, I missed the auction!


----------



## Camulos

Here are a couple I'm interested in - Vostok Amphibian 1980-89:





















And this older watch - 1953 'Red Twelve'















Thoughts very gratefully received!


----------



## sideways2

Love the Pobeda but the hands look off...not to mention...I'm a noob so hopefully more will chime in


----------



## sideways2

Found this...top one...hope it helps!!


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Here are a couple I'm interested in
> Thoughts very gratefully received!


Sideways is right, the hands are wrong on the Red 12.

The Komandirskie looks good, but I'm guessing the dial/hands have been relumed. For some, that's a value-add; for others, it's a deal-breaker.


----------



## Camulos

It certainly does - thanks Sideways


----------



## Camulos

Thanks mroatman. And thanks to everyone on here for such fantastic, knowledgeable help! I hope one day I will be able to assist newbies similarly!

How about this - legit early 50s?


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> How about this - legit early 50s?


Woof. That one's seen better days.

The movement is replaced with one from an ordinary Pobeda (the pictured movement doesn't hack), the crown looks to be from a Sportivnie (a legit 15j Sturmanskie should have a pillow-shaped crown), the second hand is too short (it should reach all the way to the minute track), and the dial appears to have been used by a child for his crayon adventures. At least he stayed inside the lines.

Definitely, definitely pass on that one.

You may enjoy this article: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/ever...anskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html


----------



## Camulos

mroatman said:


> Woof. That one's seen better days.
> 
> The movement is replaced with one from an ordinary Pobeda (the pictured movement doesn't hack), the crown looks to be from a Sportivnie (a legit 15j Sturmanskie should have a pillow-shaped crown), the second hand is too short (it should reach all the way to the minute track), and the dial appears to have been used by a child for his crayon adventures. At least he stayed inside the lines.
> 
> Definitely, definitely pass on that one.
> 
> You may enjoy this article: https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/ever...anskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html


Thanks for the info and the link. I was a bit suspicious of the relatively low price!


----------



## schnurrp

sideways2 said:


> Found this...top one...hope it helps!!
> 
> View attachment 11205162


Pretty good job of researching, comrade novichku. Learning how to use the available catalogs is a good sign that a collector wants to get it right. Invaluable, in my opinion.


----------



## Camulos

Ok, I know I've posted a lot here recently, but I'm learning and keeping notes on how to tell fakes/frankens etc.

What are your thoughts on these two please?

RARE Vintage Soviet USSR Russian legendary watch POBEDA 3-1949 Red 12 Serviced



















around £60

and this: soviet USSR russian watch WOSTOK VOSTOK Commander original




















Also around £60.

Thank you in advance, comrades


----------



## miroman

About the Pobeda:

- The oldest Pobedas have soldiered bars and chromed back. This one has separate spring-bars and steel back. When exactly they started using such I'm not sure, but I believe it's after '50 
- The bridges have different decoration, they are from different movements.
- 'serviced' ?!? I wouldn't name 'serviced' a watch with such position of the regulator of the balance. Probably the balance is from another model.

Regards, Miro.


----------



## sideways2

Hey...you and me both lol!! 

The Red 12 looks better...not sure of the case back if it shows nothing or not??


----------



## Arizone

Camulos said:


> Ok, I know I've posted a lot here recently, but I'm learning and keeping notes on how to tell fakes/frankens etc.
> 
> What are your thoughts on these two please?
> 
> and this: soviet USSR russian watch WOSTOK VOSTOK Commander original
> View attachment 11209338
> 
> 
> Also around £60.
> 
> Thank you in advance, comrades


I'd expect some people to jump on this watch as franken but the lack of a date function really separates it from the usual blue subs found on Komandirskies and the more common "Amphibidirskie" dials seen today. I think the early 90's had a lot of weird things going on that might explain the hands as well which were occasionally not Amphibian ones.

It's a bit pricey to me in raw value, so up to you if its uniqueness is worth it. You do get the benefit of its slimmer manual profile while being steel cased and also not having bother with the date setting.


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> What are your thoughts on these two please?
> *RARE Vintage Soviet USSR Russian legendary watch POBEDA 3-1949 Red 12 Serviced*





miroman said:


> About the Pobeda:
> - The oldest Pobedas have soldiered bars and chromed back. This one has separate spring-bars and steel back. When exactly they started using such I'm not sure, but I believe it's after '50
> - The bridges have different decoration, they are from different movements.
> - 'serviced' ?!? I wouldn't name 'serviced' a watch with such position of the regulator of the balance. Probably the balance is from another model.
> Regards, Miro.


To highlight Miro's second point, have a look at the images below. The polishing "stripes" should line up on a authentic watch. Hopefully you can see that on this movement, the Geneva stripes don't align.

It looks to me like the barrel bridge was replaced to make the watch seem older than it is. This would explain the later design elements (steel case back, soldered spring bars).


----------



## mariomart

Someone got a little too excited or distracted when polishing this poor 119 (090?) .

That's one ugly case ....


----------



## Camulos

How about this? Is there much original on this? Going really cheap.

1950's Very Rare Soviet legendary watch POBEDA USSR - SERVICED + handmade strap | eBay


----------



## Danilao

What do you think about this?

































Thanks!


----------



## Straight_time

Camulos said:


> How about this? Is there much original on this? Going really cheap.


Looks mainly original on the outside (not 100% sure about the crown, though); don't know whether the lack of a movement shot means that the seller had a little laziness, or there's something to kept hidden inside. Had it on my watchlist and was considering the purchase, but seeing that at £19 it had no bids and is now offered BIN at £24 makes me go meh.... :think:


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> How about this? Is there much original on this? Going really cheap.
> 1950's Very Rare Soviet legendary watch POBEDA USSR - SERVICED + handmade strap | eBay





Straight_time said:


> Looks mainly original on the outside (not 100% sure about the crown, though); don't know whether the lack of a movement shot means that the seller had a little laziness, or there's something to kept hidden inside. Had it on my watchlist and was considering the purchase, but seeing that at £19 it had no bids and is now offered BIN at £24 makes me go meh.... :think:


Yeah, I'd say the crown is definitely wrong, and it's weird that virtually ALL of the chrome is gone on the lugs (I can appreciate normal wear and tear, but...). Probably doesn't have the correct ZIM motor inside, but without a movement shot, who knows?


----------



## schnurrp

Danilao said:


> What do you think about this?
> 
> View attachment 11251338
> 
> 
> View attachment 11251346
> 
> 
> View attachment 11251354
> 
> 
> View attachment 11251362
> 
> 
> Thanks!


Looks good to me and if that Cr means chrome, I've never seen that before. Interesting detail. Original looking crown and crystal.


----------



## mroatman

Danilao said:


> What do you think about this?
> Thanks!





schnurrp said:


> Looks good to me and if that Cr means chrome, I've never seen that before. Interesting detail. Original looking crown and crystal.


I agree, the coolest thing about that is the strange stamp on the case. I need to give mine a closer look. The watch itself is legit, I'd say. Here's one of mine:









This textured "checkerboard" design was evidently popular and produced under at least three different brands: Start, Pobeda, and Svet.









But I've never seen a case stamp like that "Cr" one before.


----------



## Danilao

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Grazie Schnurrp e MrO, so we've to investigate about the "<Cr>" stamp ;-)

It is not in great shape but, at least, it was cheap :-D


----------



## Jp179717

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Hi, new here and new to Russian watches! Just wanted to get a second opinion on these two pieces to see if they are genuine as I have never seen let alone owned a Russian watch before. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Sandro8086

You know if this Wostok is legit or not?


----------



## kev80e

I don't recall having seen this before . At the six o'clock it says Russian product. I'm not thinking of buying it and didn't seem worth a new thread but wondered if this was common or not. Obviously post Soviet era.


----------



## ThePossumKing

kev80e said:


> I don't recall having seen this before . At the six o'clock it says Russian product. I'm not thinking of buying it and didn't seem worth a new thread but wondered if this was common or not. Obviously post Soviet era.
> View attachment 11261570
> View attachment 11261578


I can say the dial is legit, because I have had a few of them, but they always had Cyrillic case backs. I have never seen a case back like the one shown

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bamboogie

Hi All,

I'm new to this forum and to watch collecting!

I would like to buy my first Raketa Big Zero and Vostok Komandirskie (Preferably with 17 Jewels (pre-90's) and a VDV dial) and have selected some possibilities online.

Would someone be able to help me check if they are legit? (I can't post links since I'm new)

Thanks in advance!


----------



## mroatman

Bamboogie said:


> I would like to buy my first Raketa Big Zero and Vostok Komandirskie (Preferably with 17 Jewels (pre-90's) and a VDV dial) and have selected some possibilities online.
> Would someone be able to help me check if they are legit? (I can't post links since I'm new)


Post the item numbers or listing titles, and maybe someone here can post the links for you instead.


----------



## Bamboogie

Thanks for the advice!

On eBay:
262877730884

262882458158

132117405241
262898580665
120852162743
121696592718

120720971994
191804444402


----------



## Bamboogie

On Etsy
512607805 seller 117BackInUSSR1991
469846279 seller sovietwatchesstore
493551598 seller WatchSoviet
399688193 seller sovietwatchesstore
504996810 sellerMyVintageBAG


----------



## Victorv

Hi good morning guys, can someone help me to know if this Big Zero is all genuine? Looks good yo me except the caseback, but i'm no expert ?

Many thanks comrades





































Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## DavidUK

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Jp179717 said:


> Hi, new here and new to Russian watches! Just wanted to get a second opinion on these two pieces to see if they are genuine as I have never seen let alone owned a Russian watch before. Thanks in advance.
> View attachment 11252362
> View attachment 11252370
> View attachment 11252386
> View attachment 11252394


Both look ok to me although there are others here more expert than me. However, you can find Slavas in much better condition than the one shown.


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Jp179717 said:


> Hi, new here and new to Russian watches! Just wanted to get a second opinion on these two pieces to see if they are genuine as I have never seen let alone owned a Russian watch before. Thanks in advance.
> View attachment 11252362
> View attachment 11252370
> View attachment 11252386
> View attachment 11252394


The Slava is good but the Raketa has had its original gold-plated case "harvested", probably, and a chrome-plated one substituted.


----------



## schnurrp

Sandro8086 said:


> You know if this Wostok is legit or not?
> 
> View attachment 11255482
> 
> View attachment 11255490
> 
> View attachment 11255506


Probably, except for the red second hand, in my opinion.


----------



## Arizone

ThePossumKing said:


> I can say the dial is legit, because I have had a few of them, but they always had Cyrillic case backs. I have never seen a case back like the one shown


I have one Latin model I bought second-hand. The dial is Cyrillic (different design), but the back is the same as above and the movement engraved "RUSSIA", "THIRTY TWO JEWELS", and "VOSTOK". I swear the rotor had black lettering too somewhat like this only I think with the B cutout, but I can't find it among my parts.



Victorv said:


> Hi good morning guys, can someone help me to know if this Big Zero is all genuine? Looks good yo me except the caseback, but i'm no expert 😑


The dial printing looks a bit sloppy but I don't know that I can determine if it was printed exactly. The hands are correct, which is probably the biggest hurdle for fakers. Unless the price is very good (it's not really) I would be cautious and find another.



Bamboogie said:


> Thanks for the advice!
> 
> On eBay:
> 262877730884
> 262882458158
> 132117405241
> 262898580665
> 120852162743
> 121696592718
> 120720971994
> 191804444402





Bamboogie said:


> On Etsy
> 512607805 seller 117BackInUSSR1991
> 469846279 seller sovietwatchesstore
> 493551598 seller WatchSoviet
> 399688193 seller sovietwatchesstore
> 504996810 sellerMyVintageBAG


Quickly going through these since you've listed so many.

Ebay:
No, wrong hands.
No, wrong case.
Maybe yes? Can't see if the crystal or crown are correct, and no movement shot.
No, same watch Victorv posted, reasons above.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Zenitar is a well-known seller of new models and parts.

Etsy:
No, possible franken.
Yes.
Yes, but be cautious the date wheel may be broken or wonky. Also note it's a brass Komandirskie, not a steel Amphibian.
Yes.
Yes, but crystal is replaced.

I must recommend seller Samun, a member here and known collector and restorer. For a little bit more you can know your watches are original and serviced.
http://www.ebay.com/usr/samun_povt?_trksid=p2047675.l2559


----------



## Victorv

Arizone said:


> The dial printing looks a bit sloppy but I don't know that I can determine if it was printed exactly. The hands are correct, which is probably the biggest hurdle for fakers. Unless the price is very good (it's not really) I would be cautious and find another.


Many thanks mate, I'm going for another


----------



## bpmurray

Vostok 30atm, legit or franken? It all seems to check out, but its way to steep of an investment not to at least try to double-check.

Thanks all!


----------



## Naidan

Hi all,

Can I get your opinion on the watch link below. I am pretty sure the hands and crown are replacements but wondered if everything else is ok.

Soviet Military Mechanical watch Raketa 24 Hours Aviator Cal.2623.H Serviced. | eBay


----------



## Naidan

Hi all,

Can I get your opinion on the watch link below. I am pretty sure the hands and crown are replacements but wondered if everything else is ok.

Soviet Military Mechanical watch Raketa 24 Hours Aviator Cal.2623.H Serviced. | eBay


----------



## mroatman

Naidan said:


> Hi all,
> Can I get your opinion on the watch link below. I am pretty sure the hands and crown are replacements but wondered if everything else is ok.
> Soviet Military Mechanical watch Raketa 24 Hours Aviator Cal.2623.H Serviced. | eBay


Well, it's certainly not a Soviet watch. The dial clearly says "RUSSIA".


----------



## AGAPITO

What do you think about this Saturn watch? Thank you in advance.


----------



## sonics

What do you think? How much is it worth?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## bpmurray

Can't really help on price, but the face of the dial appears to say "Made in Russia" at the bottom (99% sure, but hard to see clearly in the photo). I don't know how old you believed this to be, but at least the dial is relatively new.



sonics said:


> What do you think? How much is it worth?
> 
> Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## sonics

bpmurray said:


> Can't really help on price, but the face of the dial appears to say "Made in Russia" at the bottom (99% sure, but hard to see clearly in the photo). I don't know how old you believed this to be, but at least the dial is relatively new.


So it is not soviet made?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## bpmurray

From what the picture shows, its Russian made, post-1991.



sonics said:


> So it is not soviet made?
> 
> Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## OKEAH

No it is made in Russia, not Soviet made, seems OK otherwise


----------



## sonics

I have to make a offer to the seller and I don't know how much 

Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## OKEAH

Replated (not replaced) bezel on the 30 atm vostok, appears OK otherwise


----------



## bpmurray

Search EBay for "Buran 3133" recent sales and look for ones comparable to this one.



sonics said:


> I have to make a offer to the seller and I don't know how much
> 
> Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## bpmurray

Thank you! It checked out against all of the "guideline" articles posted here, but that's no replacement for experience/expertise. Seems like the bezels are the most commonly repaired/replaced part of these.



OKEAH said:


> Replated (not replaced) bezel on the 30 atm vostok, appears OK otherwise


----------



## dutchassasin

Burans generally go for €90-€150 and can be easily found on ebay.de. Average price would be €100- for a used one.

Congratulations on the 300m, very nice and iconic piece!


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> What do you think about this Saturn watch? Thank you in advance.


It appears 100% original, including the (rare) crystal.


----------



## BizzyC

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Double post


----------



## Sandro8086

What about this Zim?


----------



## mroatman

Sandro8086 said:


> What about this Zim?


Looks fine to me.


----------



## Camulos

Hey all! Me again. I have a few watches inbound that I will post to show you when they arrive, but I've just come across this interesting one: 
"*Kirovskie Poljot Sputnik mens wrist watch 16 Jewels I MChZ USSR RARE Serviced"*





















About $90...thoughts on this piece much appreciated! 

Thanks.


----------



## dutchassasin

counterweight of seconds hand is missing, dial looks good. Before purchasing, wait till the real experts can confirm the authenticity


----------



## Camulos

Thanks for the input - when you say the counterweight is missing, is this a problem or big deal? Thanks


----------



## Jp179717

Just bought this Amphibia as my first Russian watch from eBay seller 'zenitar' on the reviews I've seen on here for him. I've been looking a lot recently and never seen an Amphibia with this particular dial or with the date window in this poistion, is it genuine? New production dial maybe? Massive Russian watch novice here so thanks for your help!


----------



## AGAPITO

Camulos said:


> Hey all! Me again. I have a few watches inbound that I will post to show you when they arrive, but I've just come across this interesting one:
> "*Kirovskie Poljot Sputnik mens wrist watch 16 Jewels I MChZ USSR RARE Serviced"*
> 
> View attachment 11306538
> View attachment 11306546
> View attachment 11306562
> 
> 
> About $90...thoughts on this piece much appreciated!
> 
> Thanks.


As I have a Sputnik watch from the First Moscow Watch Factory, I think that the case, the dial and the hands would be correct. Although the case and the dial are not in an optimal state of preservation.

Don´t forget to look at the caseback.

The problem I see is the crown. Without any doubt, that crown is a replacement for another watch, it is not the original crown. Look closely at the pictures, I may be wrong, but it looks like a new crown, does not even match the color of the crown with the case. If you want to know what the original crown was like, you can see it on any Kirovskie watch with the "crab" case.

My advice is to think if it is worth spending that money on a watch in those conditions. I do not advise you or advise against it, I just tell you to think about it.

This is my Sputnik. Look at the dial and case:


----------



## dutchassasin

Jp179717 said:


> Just bought this Amphibia as my first Russian watch from eBay seller 'zenitar' on the reviews I've seen on here for him. I've been looking a lot recently and never seen an Amphibia with this particular dial or with the date window in this poistion, is it genuine? New production dial maybe? Massive Russian watch novice here so thanks for your help!


Yep, all correct! The dial has been launched recently.


----------



## Camulos

The caseback looks just like yours which I think is a good sign. Thanks for your input and insight. Lovely pics of your watch too 



AGAPITO said:


> As I have a Sputnik watch from the First Moscow Watch Factory, I think that the case, the dial and the hands would be correct. Although the case and the dial are not in an optimal state of preservation.
> 
> Don´t forget to look at the caseback.
> 
> The problem I see is the crown. Without any doubt, that crown is a replacement for another watch, it is not the original crown. Look closely at the pictures, I may be wrong, but it looks like a new crown, does not even match the color of the crown with the case. If you want to know what the original crown was like, you can see it on any Kirovskie watch with the "crab" case.
> 
> My advice is to think if it is worth spending that money on a watch in those conditions. I do not advise you or advise against it, I just tell you to think about it.
> 
> This is my Sputnik. Look at the dial and case:
> 
> View attachment 11310498
> 
> 
> View attachment 11310514
> 
> 
> View attachment 11310522


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Thanks for the input - when you say the counterweight is missing, is this a problem or big deal? Thanks


"Counterweight" simply refers to the base of the hand. I'm sure it works just fine so this would only be an aesthetic gripe, but technically it's "broken".

AGIPTO is right that the crown is also replaced. The correct shape is a bit pointed, conical.

You can compare to the photo below. Both areas of issue marked in yellow:









Everything else looks fine to me.


----------



## Camulos

Thanks mroatman. Can you believe it, while I've been shilly-shallying, the watch has gone and sold! D'oh!



mroatman said:


> "Counterweight" simply refers to the base of the hand. I'm sure it works just fine so this would only be an aesthetic gripe, but technically it's "broken".
> 
> AGIPTO is right that the crown is also replaced. The correct shape is a bit pointed, conical.
> 
> You can compare to the photo below. Both areas of issue marked in yellow:
> 
> View attachment 11316642
> 
> 
> Everything else looks fine to me.


----------



## slls

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Camulos said:


> Thanks for the input - when you say the counterweight is missing, is this a problem or big deal? Thanks


Well sort off... you won't find a spare. Crown has been replaced as well.

Oeps, others already replied.


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Thanks mroatman. Can you believe it, while I've been shilly-shallying, the watch has gone and sold! D'oh!


Unfortunately, this is pretty common. There's no telling how many people read this forum -- when something tasty is posted, it'll go fast.

The best approach in the future is to post photos only with no link or item description (which makes it easy for anyone interested to find your desired piece and buy it right out from under you).

Don't worry, it wasn't that great. You can find a better example if you're willing to be patient.


----------



## Victorv

Hi guys, somebody knows if this Sekonda is genuine? I think the dial not , but i don't know

Vintage GENTLEMANS Sekonda MANUAL WIND AUTOMATIC WATCH 17 JEWELS | eBay


----------



## Geoff Adams

Hello Comrades, I paid the princely sum of £9 GBP for this one - another impulse ebay auction bid  I reckon it must be from the late 1980s to early 1990s. It seems in very good condition, maybe too good? I have my suspicions about the whiteness of the lume - and I don't know this dial at all. Legit or Franken? No probs either way. Please advise...


----------



## OrangeOrange

Not an expert, the hands look original. The modern Russian hands have smaller openings for lume. I don't know if the lume itself is original though.


----------



## Neruda

I haven't seen this Vostok orange dial before - and I've never seen these blue hands. I wonder if the dial is genuine Vostok (although maybe not to the Amphibia) - I can't see anyone bothering to fake it in this condition or for the price. Amphibia style hands and Komandirskie second hand certainly seem to be a mismatch - so is this an old "mod" or a modern franky? I won't be buying this, but it's got me really puzzled!

First time posting photos - I think if you click them they will enlarge


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Hi guys, somebody knows if this Sekonda is genuine? I think the dial not , but i don't know
> 
> Vintage GENTLEMANS Sekonda MANUAL WIND AUTOMATIC WATCH 17 JEWELS | eBay


I've not seen that one before and since it doesn't appear to be in any catalogs and has no place of manufacture on the dial, I would not be a buyer.


----------



## schnurrp

Geoff Adams said:


> Hello Comrades, I paid the princely sum of £9 GBP for this one - another impulse ebay auction bid  I reckon it must be from the late 1980s to early 1990s. It seems in very good condition, maybe too good? I have my suspicions about the whiteness of the lume - and I don't know this dial at all. Legit or Franken? No probs either way. Please advise...


There's a good chance it's authentic, in my opinion, Geoff, but it's not in any catalogs so unless another like it shows up in someone else's collection there's doubt. The lume of the hands may appear yellow due to the lighting of the photo.

Here is a similar situation, a design known best as a "military" komandirskie appearing as a civil piece, from Michelle:


----------



## schnurrp

Neruda said:


> I haven't seen this Vostok orange dial before - and I've never seen these blue hands. I wonder if the dial is genuine Vostok (although maybe not to the Amphibia) - I can't see anyone bothering to fake it in this condition or for the price. Amphibia style hands and Komandirskie second hand certainly seem to be a mismatch - so is this an old "mod" or a modern franky? I won't be buying this, but it's got me really puzzled!
> 
> First time posting photos - I think if you click them they will enlarge
> 
> View attachment 11335874
> View attachment 11335890
> View attachment 11335930


I think all you can say about this one is that it didn't come out of Chistopol Factory like this. What and when mods were made is impossible to say.


----------



## mroatman

Geoff Adams said:


> Hello Comrades, I paid the princely sum of £9 GBP for this one - another impulse ebay auction bid  I reckon it must be from the late 1980s to early 1990s. It seems in very good condition, maybe too good? I have my suspicions about the whiteness of the lume - and I don't know this dial at all. Legit or Franken? No probs either way. Please advise...





schnurrp said:


> There's a good chance it's authentic, in my opinion, Geoff, but it's not in any catalogs so unless another like it shows up in someone else's collection there's doubt. The lume of the hands may appear yellow due to the lighting of the photo.


I've got the chromed variant (not yet online -- I'm behind). I think it's legit.

"Lume" (just paint I believe) looks fine on yours, Geoff.


----------



## mroatman

Neruda said:


> I haven't seen this Vostok orange dial before - and I've never seen these blue hands. I wonder if the dial is genuine Vostok (although maybe not to the Amphibia) - I can't see anyone bothering to fake it in this condition or for the price. Amphibia style hands and Komandirskie second hand certainly seem to be a mismatch - so is this an old "mod" or a modern franky? I won't be buying this, but it's got me really puzzled!


Definitely a franken. The dial is from this one in the 1976 catalog, originally deep red in color. The dial on the watch you show has presumably been bleached by the sun, making it appear orange.


----------



## kev80e

Geoff Adams said:


> Hello Comrades, I paid the princely sum of £9 GBP for this one - another impulse ebay auction bid  I reckon it must be from the late 1980s to early 1990s. It seems in very good condition, maybe too good? I have my suspicions about the whiteness of the lume - and I don't know this dial at all. Legit or Franken? No probs either way. Please advise...


.
Nice Geoff, love that dial. Congratulations especially for £9.


----------



## kev80e

A couple for my new "others" section, what do you think? I'm not sure about the hands on the square one, seem ok but not what i usually buy. Cheers for any opinions.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> A couple for my new "others" section, what do you think? I'm not sure about the hands on the square one, seem ok but not what i usually buy. Cheers for any opinions.


Looks like the Slava just sold, and for the best since the dial was poorly repainted.


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Looks like the Slava just sold, and for the best since the dial was poorly repainted.


.
Cheers Dashiell. Shame ,I quite like these. I will get one someday.


----------



## kev80e

Back to the more familiar. Just checking , in fact if this is wrong then I'm giving up and changing hobbies.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Back to the more familiar. Just checking , in fact if this is wrong then I'm giving up and changing hobbies.


Haha, looks good to me, Kev 👍


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> I've not seen that one before and since it doesn't appear to be in any catalogs and has no place of manufacture on the dial, I would not be a buyer.


Many thanks for your help my friend, really


----------



## ThePossumKing

kev80e said:


> Back to the more familiar. Just checking , in fact if this is wrong then I'm giving up and changing hobbies.
> View attachment 11341450


The 5 of those that I've modded say that one is all good, kev


----------



## ThePossumKing

Geoff Adams said:


> Hello Comrades, I paid the princely sum of £9 GBP for this one - another impulse ebay auction bid  I reckon it must be from the late 1980s to early 1990s. It seems in very good condition, maybe too good? I have my suspicions about the whiteness of the lume - and I don't know this dial at all. Legit or Franken? No probs either way. Please advise...


Geoff, I've got 3 of that one's twin sisters, both modded and stock, and unless they are faking them in batches, I'd have to say that one is legit.

Here's one I haven't gotten around to desecrating yet.


----------



## ThePossumKing

mroatman said:


> Definitely a franken. The dial is from this one in the 1976 catalog, originally deep red in color. The dial on the watch you show has presumably been bleached by the sun, making it appear orange.
> 
> View attachment 11337634
> 
> 
> View attachment 11337642


And another case variant of that same dial


----------



## Geoff Adams

Thanks very much guys, to all who kindly commented on the black dial Vostok. Really nice to see this one is legit - an absolute bonus, once again more luck than judgement. Very surprised to know that this one isn't catalogued as it is legit. Thanks again, much appreciated!


----------



## Straight_time

Geoff Adams said:


> Thanks very much guys, to all who kindly commented on the black dial Vostok. Really nice to see this one is legit - an absolute bonus, once again more luck than judgement. Very surprised to know that this one isn't catalogued as it is legit.


It is, actually.

Models 2414A/293176 (bronze dial in gilded case - yours) and 2414A/291175 (its twin with black dial in chromed case) are pictured on page 3 of the 1990-1991 Vostok Catalog. ;-)


----------



## kev80e

So I assume this is in the wrong case . 







Should be in one like this? Or silver maybe?


----------



## jetcash

eBay stumble.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


----------



## jetcash

jetcash said:


> eBay stumble.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Pictures came out crap. My apologies.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

Could someone please tell me what this says in English?

I'm sorry but it's the best picture available. Cheers


----------



## alexir

mariomart said:


> Could someone please tell me what this says in English?
> 
> I'm sorry but it's the best picture available. Cheers
> 
> View attachment 11382546


"Armeyskie" meaning "military"


----------



## mariomart

alexir said:


> "Armeyskie" meaning "military"


Thank you


----------



## cman1120

Hi everyone! I am getting 1st Russian watch, vintage in nature. It is said to be a 1953 approx vintage Pobeda, wanting to see if it is legit. I have included several pictures for you, I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks so much :ch









































Misspelling brought to you by Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

What do y'all make of this one? Overall, everything looks to "fit" -- classic Raketa, with the Wind Rose dial scaled down for a Baltika case. Nothing stands out to me as obviously fake. The R2609 is indicative of an export model.

But then, there's that strange designation at the bottom of the dial: "Japan Movt" ?

What gives? Maybe this was an export watch for the Japanese market that misrepresented the origins of the movement to get around some customs regulations? Or an entirely fake/reproduction dial?


----------



## mroatman

cman1120 said:


> Hi everyone! I am getting 1st Russian watch, vintage in nature. It is said to be a 1953 approx vintage Pobeda, wanting to see if it is legit. I have included several pictures for you, I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks so much :ch


Pictures are tiny, but it looks fine to me. A nice example from Chistopol. Pity about the near loss of the Red 12, but that's common on these.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> So I assume this is in the wrong case .
> Should be in one like this? Or silver maybe?


Yes, exactly. I'm pretty sure chrome is the appropriate case for this purple dial, but maybe gold too.


----------



## cman1120

mroatman said:


> Pictures are tiny, but it looks fine to me. A nice example from Chistopol. Pity about the near loss of the Red 12, but that's common on these.


Apologies for the smaller res pictures, they look ok on my screen, but I am on the phone too so  Thanks for the feedback and reassurance, I will post more pictures when it arrives! It is a bummer on the red 12, oh well

Misspelling brought to you by Tapatalk


----------



## Arizone

mroatman said:


> What do y'all make of this one? Overall, everything looks to "fit" -- classic Raketa, with the Wind Rose dial scaled down for a Baltika case. Nothing stands out to me as obviously fake. The R2609 is indicative of an export model.
> 
> But then, there's that strange designation at the bottom of the dial: "Japan Movt" ?
> 
> What gives? Maybe this was an export watch for the Japanese market that misrepresented the origins of the movement to get around some customs regulations? Or an entirely fake/reproduction dial?


I'd steer clear of anything that doesn't have the internal bezel. I think these "wind rose" models went for more a few years ago so there may have been incentive to fake them, but they don't seem so sought after now. There are of course plenty of other franken/fake Raketas, so this isn't unusual. If it was an export model you'd expect a Latin logo as well as an appropriate inscription. The last thing I want the point out is that the lines in the center appear too fine compared to all the other examples I'm looking at.


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> I'd steer clear of anything that doesn't have the internal bezel. I think these "wind rose" models went for more a few years ago so there may have been incentive to fake them, but they don't seem so sought after now. There are of course plenty of other franken/fake Raketas, so this isn't unusual. If it was an export model you'd expect a Latin logo as well as an appropriate inscription. The last thing I want the point out is that the lines in the center appear too fine compared to all the other examples I'm looking at.


Yes, well if they were trying to counterfeit the original, they didn't even get close. Wrong case, wrong movement, wrong....country of manufacture 😆
These "R" movements are quite rare and usually only found on specialty export models (like this and this). If that was the only thing "off" about this watch, then I'd dismiss it as an obvious franken. But the "Japan Movt" leads me to believe there may be more to this story than we realize.

Or maybe not.


----------



## Arizone

mroatman said:


> Yes, well if they were trying to counterfeit the original, they didn't even get close. Wrong case, wrong movement, wrong....country of manufacture 
> These "R" movements are quite rare and usually only found on specialty export models (like this and this). If that was the only thing "off" about this watch, then I'd dismiss it as an obvious franken. But the "Japan Movt" leads me to believe there may be more to this story than we realize.
> 
> Or maybe not.


I recall seeing somewhere a mechanical watch from the 70's/80's with a dial marked "quartz" merely for deceptive marketing... We can't put it past those Dr. Frankensteins. Now that I think of it, I think I've heard about a Japan marked Soviet watch before too although the closest results are these: 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/japanese-raketa-770673.html
Merana with 17j Soviet movement (I think)

Strange things have certainly happened in the Soviet watch industry before, as you definitely know, but I don't think Raketa would openly put their own name on a goof like this unlike separate export brands/companies. Modern Raketa once commented on the fakes found on the market and frequently advertises their history, maybe you could try contacting them?

My ordinary export Big Zero from Samun also had an R movement. I didn't think it was rare, but I never looked into it either.


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> I don't think Raketa would openly put their own name on a goof like this unlike separate export brands/companies.


Yes, this is probably the nail in the coffin for me, too.

Thanks for your thoughts


----------



## Camulos

I keep seeing these watches around:







USSR Russian watch Molnija Molnia Nesterov Aviator
Claiming to be 1970s. Is this legit in anyway? I find them quite attractive and the Nesterov story is interesting. Worth a punt?


----------



## Chascomm

Camulos said:


> I keep seeing these watches around:
> View attachment 11389098
> 
> USSR Russian watch Molnija Molnia Nesterov Aviator
> Claiming to be 1970s. Is this legit in anyway? I find them quite attractive and the Nesterov story is interesting. Worth a punt?


Only if you like it a lot. Basically this is a home-built conversion of a Molnija pocket watch with a custom dial. It was probably inspired by the Poljot Russian Aviator series of watches of about a decade ago, which included a Nesterov model. In its present form this watch is most likely 'new' although the parts may date back decades.


----------



## bpmurray

Camulos said:


> I keep seeing these watches around:
> View attachment 11389098
> 
> *USSR Russian watch Molnija Molnia Nesterov Aviator*
> 
> Claiming to be 1970s. Is this legit in anyway? I find them quite attractive and the Nesterov story is interesting. Worth a punt?


The case looks to be from the 1970's, but the dial and hands are brand new. The crown looks like it was taken from an unrelated watch as well. I'd avoid -- there are a number of legitimate aviation-themed watches from the 1950-1990 time frame out there at a variety of price points.


----------



## Rudakovski

This has to be a fake dial right? Noticed it doesn't have any lume and it just looks off. Not to mention the Заказ мо России.


----------



## dmnc

I picked up this Raketa Wind Rose pretty cheaply and would really appreciate some expert opinion on it please.

There seem to be two sorts of dial - either a silver sunburst or, like this one, a cream sandpaper. Are both legit?

I'm fairly sure the crystal has been replaced as the profile of the dome makes it hard to read the rotating bezel. If anyone knows the correct profile or could share a photo that would be very helpful in helping me replace it. If you know the required diameter for this case, even better.

Does anything else look wrong here?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

dmnc said:


> I picked up this Raketa Wind Rose pretty cheaply and would really appreciate some expert opinion on it please.
> 
> There seem to be two sorts of dial - either a silver sunburst or, like this one, a cream sandpaper. Are both legit?
> 
> I'm fairly sure the crystal has been replaced as the profile of the dome makes it hard to read the rotating bezel. If anyone knows the correct profile or could share a photo that would be very helpful in helping me replace it. If you know the required diameter for this case, even better.
> 
> Does anything else look wrong here?


I have never seen or heard of a matte-dialed Wind Rose before -- sunburst only. That doesn't mean it's not an authentic variation, but going by the crude printing quality and bumpy (?) texture of your dial, I would guess this is a reproduction


----------



## dmnc

mroatman said:


> I have never seen or heard of a matte-dialed Wind Rose before -- sunburst only. That doesn't mean it's not an authentic variation, but going by the crude printing quality and bumpy (?) texture of your dial, I would guess this is a reproduction


Quite possible. There are quite a few on eBay. It may be that there was a big batch of fakes all the same.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Arizone

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

There was one matte dial when I was looking on Google the other day. Can't say whether it's original or not but the internal bezel and everything looks good. There's a side profile too.

















https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/just-raketa-wind-rose-bay-1056936.html



Rudakovski said:


> View attachment 11392882
> 
> This has to be a fake dial right? Noticed it doesn't have any lume and it just looks off. Not to mention the Заказ мо России.


The date window seems to be cut properly unlike some cheaper ones, and the black hands match, a small hurdle for fakers. Missing lume has occurred before on some special models. The inscription is certainly weird but maybe the Russian military did order them? Otherwise it would have had to have been painted over an original dial.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Arizone said:


> There was one matte dial when I was looking on Google the other day. Can't say whether it's original or not but the internal bezel and everything looks good. There's a side profile too.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/just-raketa-wind-rose-bay-1056936.html


Well, that one looks exactly the same, and I just realized both are "Made in Russia". It seems more possible to me now, but I admit defeat when it comes to knowing anything about post-Soviet watches.


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Yes, exactly. I'm pretty sure chrome is the appropriate case for this purple dial, but maybe gold too.


.
Thanks Dashiell. Shame the dial and hands look pretty good.


----------



## Straight_time

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Arizone said:


> The date window seems to be cut properly unlike some cheaper ones, and the black hands match, a small hurdle for fakers. Missing lume has occurred before on some special models. The inscription is certainly weird but maybe the Russian military did order them? Otherwise it would have had to have been painted over an original dial.


I can't recall having ever seen any Russian-era Zakaz before, this would be the first.
Also, 99,9% (not to say 100%) of the authentic commemorative or promotional Vostoks I can think of, have the brand name or the "round B" logo printed on the dial; I'd even say that the lack of it is usually the quickest method to tell a fantasy dial from a legit one: while anybody is free to create his own design, counterfeiting a registered trademark is a wholly different matter legally (and this applies to any brand, think for instance of the several fantasy Molnijas or Raketas around, which are in fact "anonymous").

So, if 2 and 2 are 4... :think:


----------



## Arizone

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Straight_time said:


> I can't recall having ever seen any Russian-era Zakaz before, this would be the first.
> Also, 99,9% (not to say 100%) of the authentic commemorative or promotional Vostoks I can think of, have the brand name or the "round B" logo printed on the dial; I'd even say that the lack of it is usually the quickest method to tell a fantasy dial from a legit one: while anybody is free to create his own design, counterfeiting a registered trademark is a wholly different matter legally (and this applies to any brand, think for instance of the several fantasy Molnijas or Raketas around, which are in fact "anonymous").
> 
> So, if 2 and 2 are 4... :think:


I don't think there would be any legal restriction to modifying and selling old Vostok watches, including "restoring" a logo to them, not to mention international jurisdiction and legal hassle especially for a small company to pursue if they even noticed and cared in the first place.

The lack of the logo doesn't mean much either. Vostok has had a customizing service, so a logo easily could have been omitted for the customer, the same goes for then adding a unique inscription, just as this forum had done. Here are a few other examples I quickly found without logos: 1 2 3 4

Looking into the design itself it seems to refer to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1994–95)
Vostok was definitely active during that period and the details of the watch date to that period. It's possible they could have been commissioned by the defense department to produce such a celebratory item, including the 3aka3 designation that was last officially used only a few years prior. Ironically, this design would be a bit premature given the results the following year, which would have also put a stop to continued production of this design if it was ever considered like the Desert Shield models that lasted over a decade.

Pad printing is one of Vostok's methods, albeit a bit crooked which also isn't unusual. This is a much less accessible method to fakers, especially for short-run now-obscure designs like this, unlike the innumerable faked Pobeda and Molnijas. Matching black hands just adds on top of that when silver ones would be far more accessible. The lack of lume is negligible because of its low contrast and the general lack of attention applied to many commissioned dials like, again, crookedness.

All I'm saying is


----------



## Straight_time

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Arizone said:


> I don't think there would be any legal restriction to modifying and selling old Vostok watches, including "restoring" a logo to them, not to mention international jurisdiction and legal hassle especially for a small company to pursue if they even noticed and cared in the first place.


Wait a minute... fantasy dials are ok, of course *restoring* a faded logo on an *original* dial is ok too, *faking* a trademark on a watch which is not an official release is definitely NOT ok (and this is what I clearly referred to in my statement). 
Practical hassles in pursuing them should have no relevance here, we're talking about what's legal and what's not by any international copyright law.



> The lack of the logo doesn't mean much either. Vostok has had a customizing service, so a logo easily could have been omitted for the customer, the same goes for then adding a unique inscription, just as this forum had done.


Well, actually I wrote "_(...) commemorative or promotional Vostoks I can think of, have* the brand name or the "round B" logo *printed on the dial_".
As you can see, the WUS forumwatch has the factory's name "BOCTOK" on it.



> Here are a few other examples I quickly found without logos: 1 2 3 4


Shocking as it may sound, I wouldn't be 100% sure that all of them left the factory that way, specially #1 with gilded hands in a chromed case looks odd to my eye. But I get your point, and these example might well belong to the 0,1%...
I find significant, though, that #4 with its undoubtely miltary theme has the usual "Сделано в россии" writing and not the "заказ" one.
And by the way, isn't the wrong typing of the first "з" (lowercase vs. uppercase) one of the known indicators of modern fake dials?



> Pad printing is one of Vostok's methods, albeit a bit crooked which also isn't unusual. This is a much less accessible method to fakers, especially for short-run now-obscure designs like this, unlike the innumerable faked Pobeda and Molnijas


Didn't we just have, a couple of weeks ago, a thread opened by a forumist seeking for advices about how-to reproduce Vostok dials to test his new pad printer? I wouldn't say that the method is too hard to access, for those seriously interested.

But in the end, I agree with you that "anything is possible", and of course we're just friendly exchanging forum opinions. 
To my eye, it still is "rather unlikely", though. ;-)


----------



## AGAPITO

A question for the experts. Do you think this Molnija watch is authentic or is it a fake?

It looks like a normal 80s pocket watch, maybe german silve case, but I've never seen that back cover, I do not find it very frequent. I'm not saying the watch and movement is in bad shape. But it seems strange in this watch the back cover and the hands. The hands do not look like the ones of a Molnija pocket watch with an open face.

Would the back cover be original? I have never seen it in catalogs.

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Camulos

Hi all, wondering if anyone had any details on this Vostok Kommandirskie:















What do you think? There's something about it I like.

Thanks!


----------



## OrangeOrange

You could get one in better condition. I'd pass.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> A question for the experts. Do you think this Molnija watch is authentic or is it a fake?
> 
> It looks like a normal 80s pocket watch, maybe german silve case, but I've never seen that back cover, I do not find it very frequent. I'm not saying the watch and movement is in bad shape. But it seems strange in this watch the back cover and the hands. The hands do not look like the ones of a Molnija pocket watch with an open face.
> 
> Would the back cover be original? I have never seen it in catalogs.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Looks very franken-y to me. Probably an early 1WF/2WF/ZIM case with Molnija dial/hands/movement and a case-back from who knows where. Notice the dial does not seem to fit flush with the case, and there is a gap around the movement through which you can see the stem. The crown is also not well-seated. I do not think these parts belong together.


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Hi all, wondering if anyone had any details on this Vostok Kommandirskie:
> 
> What do you think? There's something about it I like.
> 
> Thanks!


Should originally look something like this:


----------



## AGAPITO

mroatman said:


> Looks very franken-y to me. Probably an early 1WF/2WF/ZIM case with Molnija dial/hands/movement and a case-back from who knows where. Notice the dial does not seem to fit flush with the case, and there is a gap around the movement through which you can see the stem. The crown is also not well-seated. I do not think these parts belong together.


Thank you very much Comrade. You are great.

The truth is I had a feeling this watch was franken. Of course, I could not express my doubts in such detail, but my feeling was... mistrust. I think I've even seen that back cover on one occasion on another watch.

I would never buy a watch of this type. I prefer to buy a watch that is 100% authentic or very little frankenized, even if it is dirty and needs cleaning and oil or repair, than buying a Franken watch that looks new.

I am convinced that the authentic Soviet watches will give us more joy in the long run.

Thank you again.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> I am convinced that the authentic Soviet watches will give us more joy in the long run.


I love your perspective, comrade!


----------



## XsiOn

Hi All,

I am a fresh USSR watches enthusiast. 
Unfortunately I believe I was (too) fast in my first decisions what to buy and why to buy (as many noobs are ). I a came across this Dhruzba. I think crown is not original but there might be more. Can you please help with evaluation? Thanks!


























Peter


----------



## mroatman

Hey Peter -- looks like the hands have been relumed/repainted as well, but otherwise a fine catch. Congratulations and welcome!


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Hey Peter -- looks like the hands have been relumed/repainted as well, but otherwise a fine catch. Congratulations and welcome!


Yes, nice dial.

I don't know these that well, is the crown a little odd looking?


----------



## XsiOn

schnurrp said:


> Yes, nice dial.
> 
> I don't know these that well, is the crown a little odd looking?


Yes, I find this crown odd too. If it is incorrect I am thinking to replace it. Do you have any idea where to find right crowns for this watch?


----------



## schnurrp

XsiOn said:


> Yes, I find this crown odd too. If it is incorrect I am thinking to replace it. Do you have any idea where to find right crowns for this watch?


Yes, you need to find a donor watch, an old watch or movement, with the proper crown and switch crowns. A new one, even if you could find one of the appropriate shape, would stick out like a sore thumb.

Something like this: Soviet vintage wrist watch KAMA code5533 | eBay would provide a better crown and also some other parts you could use later on during your time as a collector. A good stash of parts watches is absolutely necessary to a serious collector, so get started.:-!


----------



## XsiOn

schnurrp said:


> Yes, you need to find a donor watch, an old watch or movement, with the proper crown and switch crowns. A new one, even if you could find one of the appropriate shape, would stick out like a sore thumb.
> 
> Something like this: would provide a better crown and also some other parts you could use later on during your time as a collector. A good stash of parts watches is absolutely necessary to a serious collector, so get started.:-!


Thanks for help and ideas. I will buy the donor watch.... or two  As I have this filing my obsession with SU watches will not end any time soon ;-)


----------



## desmondjenson

RARE. STAINLESS STEEL VOSTOK SOVIET RUSSIAN AMPHIBIAN WATCH | eBay

Comrades,

I won this auction a few weeks back and my watch finally arrived this weekend. I had already identified that the hands seem to have been replaced. The bright white "lume" in the hour and minute hands doesn't seem to glow at all but the patina definitely doesn't match the lume dots on the dial, most of which have fallen off. The second hand looks correct and original.

I haven't opened the watch but I trust the seller's pictures that indicate the 2409A movement with the Soviet Union stamp. It looks like the antimagnetic plate is there as well.

So, it looks to me like the only thing that's been replaced are the minute and hour hands but the replacements look correct to me (if they aren't Vostok they seem to be the right size and shape). Other than that, it seems like all of the parts are correct. Does anyone see anything else that is off?

I'm also wondering about two things. First, is this the original crown? It's definitely chromed brass as most of the chrome is now gone. It is flat rather than domed. I've seen crowns identified as a potential incorrect part but based on what I've seen, I'm not sure which version is correct in a particular watch (flat or domed).

I've also noticed that the stem is visible through the crystal. I'm thinking that this means that the crystal has been replaced without a tension ring. Is that the most likely cause or am I looking at a bigger issue? Seems easy enough to remedy at some point if I just need to get a crystal with the tension ring.

I'd appreciate any other input. I'm very happy with the purchase and so far the watch keeps excellent time.


----------



## OrangeOrange

I think the hands are the original ones. They might be relumed or repainted. I can't comment on the other things.


----------



## Arizone

You're right on all accounts. Crown is wrong or missing its steel sheath, tension ring is missing, lume on hands is redone.


----------



## desmondjenson

Arizone said:


> You're right on all accounts. Crown is wrong or missing its steel sheath, tension ring is missing, lume on hands is redone.


I just found the thread discussing the stainless steel sheath on the Amphibia crowns. I had never heard of this before. It seems as though the sheath has been removed from my crown and it must have happened long ago as most of the plating has worn off. There's still a little bit left on the top but all of the plating is gone from the threads.

Thank you for your insight.


----------



## stadiou

Is this Polar any good - or too far gone to be anything other than a spares donor ?


----------



## mroatman

stadiou said:


> Is this Polar any good - or too far gone to be anything other than a spares donor ?


It's a parts watch for sure. Case and hands are wrong, and with a dial like that you'll have wished you had waited...


----------



## ThePossumKing

desmondjenson said:


> I just found the thread discussing the stainless steel sheath on the Amphibia crowns. I had never heard of this before. It seems as though the sheath has been removed from my crown and it must have happened long ago as most of the plating has worn off. There's still a little bit left on the top but all of the plating is gone from the threads.
> 
> Thank you for your insight.


Not a big deal, as these crowns are easy to find, as is a crystal with a tension ring


----------



## desmondjenson

ThePossumKing said:


> desmondjenson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just found the thread discussing the stainless steel sheath on the Amphibia crowns. I had never heard of this before. It seems as though the sheath has been removed from my crown and it must have happened long ago as most of the plating has worn off. There's still a little bit left on the top but all of the plating is gone from the threads.
> 
> Thank you for your insight.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a big deal, as these crowns are easy to find, as is a crystal with a tension ring
Click to expand...

I'll probably do both eventually but I'm very new to fixing and modifying watches so I have none of the tools or expertise yet. I'm definitely not on your level, King. But few of us are.


----------



## AGAPITO

Except for my mistake, this watch, although it has some signs of wear and should have had some use by its previous owner, and perhaps a few years of history, would be correct, or at least, the 2623 movement. I think even the case and the dial would be correct, because I have the 2623 World Time Raketa.

The anchor has seemed to me a more dangerous fantasy element, because while I am familiar with the quality symbol, I am not so much with the anchor. In fact I think that where the anchor is, there should be the quality symbol, which indicates that the watch was manufactured before 1992 or in the near future.

I do not know if at the time when this watch was made, it was on sale for civilian use by any purchaser, or its sale was restricted to the sailors or workers of the Soviet naval sector in the broad sense ...

Nevertheless, I believe have seen this watch, and that dial, somewhere.

Does it seem authentic? Thank you in advance.


----------



## dutchassasin

The anchor on the dial is legit. This watch is a civilian product and appears in the catalogues.
http://www.raketa.com/catalog-1984/

There is however a replica dial out there, easily recognizable by the "ulysse nardin" style anchor.


----------



## Lee356

Hello all this is my first time posting. I have recently become interested in Russian watches but am hesitant to buy one from everything I have read regarding many being fake or being Frankens. These are two possible ones I was looking at but wanted to get some opinions first.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Nevertheless, I believe have seen this watch, and that dial, somewhere.
> Does it seem authentic? Thank you in advance.





dutchassasin said:


> The anchor on the dial is legit. This watch is a civilian product and appears in the catalogues.
> http://www.raketa.com/catalog-1984/


Yes, dutch is exactly right. Here's the catalog snapshot (Model 4731741) and another photo for reference.


----------



## mroatman

Lee356 said:


> Hello all this is my first time posting. I have recently become interested in Russian watches but am hesitant to buy one from everything I have read regarding many being fake or being Frankens. These are two possible ones I was looking at but wanted to get some opinions first.


The OKEAH is a mess, do not buy.

The Sturmanskie looks good, with a nice early movement, but I'd want to see the case-back before buying.


----------



## Lee356

Still trying to learn all of the little differences when picking these out and which ones are good and which aren't


----------



## AGAPITO

dutchassasin said:


> The anchor on the dial is legit. This watch is a civilian product and appears in the catalogues.
> ÐšÐ°Ñ‚Ð°Ð»Ð¾Ð³ Ð ÑƒÑ�Ñ�ÐºÐ¸Ñ&#8230; Ð§Ð°Ñ�Ð¾Ð² «Ð Ð°ÐºÐµÑ‚Ð°» 1984 Ð³Ð¾Ð´ | Ð ÑƒÑ�Ñ�ÐºÐ¸Ðµ Ñ‡Ð°Ñ�Ñ‹: Ð Ð°ÐºÐµÑ‚Ð° / Russian Watches: Raketa
> 
> There is however a replica dial out there, easily recognizable by the "ulysse nardin" style anchor.


I did not know it. Thank you very much comrade.


----------



## AGAPITO

mroatman said:


> Yes, dutch is exactly right. Here's the catalog snapshot (Model 4731741) and another photo for reference.
> 
> View attachment 11475946
> 
> 
> View attachment 11475978


Thank you comrade.

You have a 2623 raketa watch very well preserved, looks like it was manufactured today. Have not you taken any 24 hours 2623 Raketa watch to Estonia?


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Have not you taken any 24 hours 2623 Raketa watch to Estonia?


In fact, this Raketa with the anchor on the dial is with me here  It's one of my favorites.


----------



## mroatman

Lee356 said:


> Still trying to learn all of the little differences when picking these out and which ones are good and which aren't


Yes, there are a lot of little things one must be aware of, but with practice and patience, you'll soon be the expert advising others.

That Sturmanskie looks like a nice example, fully original by my eyes.


----------



## Camulos

Hey all. Looking at this Gagarin Sturminskie 17j. Looks good to my (novice) eyes, using the resources I've found on this page. Can any of you experts spot anything amiss? It's not cheap, so if I bought, I'd like it to be all original. I'd also be interested in you suggesting what I might expect to pay for this, to see if it's in line with rough market value. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Grim Tuesday

Looking to get one of these; which one if any is more legit?

Watch 1:
https://img0.etsystatic.com/126/0/10472177/il_570xN.1041951250_37j0.jpg
https://img0.etsystatic.com/129/0/10472177/il_570xN.1041951256_sst0.jpg

Watch 2:
https://img0.etsystatic.com/174/0/10656599/il_570xN.1130644066_lm2z.jpg
https://img0.etsystatic.com/176/0/10656599/il_570xN.1130644070_lbk6.jpg

Watch 3:
https://img0.etsystatic.com/165/0/10655736/il_570xN.1160855248_jq4i.jpg
https://img0.etsystatic.com/143/0/10655736/il_570xN.1160855284_1bed.jpg (no movement photo)

All are around $60 shipped

Also, if I get #3 I hate the bezel. Do modern aftermarket Amphibia bezels fit on vintage watches? Also open to suggestions if anyone spots this dial design in better condition or price somewhere else on the net.


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Hey all. Looking at this Gagarin Sturminskie 17j. Looks good to my (novice) eyes, using the resources I've found on this page. Can any of you experts spot anything amiss? It's not cheap, so if I bought, I'd like it to be all original. I'd also be interested in you suggesting what I might expect to pay for this, to see if it's in line with rough market value. Thanks in advance!


Discussed at length starting here.


----------



## mroatman

Grim Tuesday said:


> Looking to get one of these; which one if any is more legit?


You can cross off Watch #2 due to the aftermarket hands.


----------



## Arizone

Grim Tuesday said:


> Looking to get one of these; which one if any is more legit?
> 
> Watch 1:
> https://img0.etsystatic.com/126/0/10472177/il_570xN.1041951250_37j0.jpg
> https://img0.etsystatic.com/129/0/10472177/il_570xN.1041951256_sst0.jpg
> 
> Watch 2:
> https://img0.etsystatic.com/174/0/10656599/il_570xN.1130644066_lm2z.jpg
> https://img0.etsystatic.com/176/0/10656599/il_570xN.1130644070_lbk6.jpg
> 
> Watch 3:
> https://img0.etsystatic.com/165/0/10655736/il_570xN.1160855248_jq4i.jpg
> https://img0.etsystatic.com/143/0/10655736/il_570xN.1160855284_1bed.jpg (no movement photo)
> 
> All are around $60 shipped
> 
> Also, if I get #3 I hate the bezel. Do modern aftermarket Amphibia bezels fit on vintage watches? Also open to suggestions if anyone spots this dial design in better condition or price somewhere else on the net.












This is what the watch should look like _ideally_. We can't fully confirm whether the watch came with other case and bezel styles or not like the other models, but it's not entirely out of the question either. The 470/320 octagon cases were the most ubiquitous for antimagnetics.

I wanted to say both #1 and #3 have replaced crowns, chromed brass instead of steel, but as I'm looking at the other pages in the catalog and other 320/470 listings I'm no longer entirely sure. Hopefully someone else can back me up here because I thought all Amphibians after the 300m and swing-lug models had the crimped steel. Must have been a detail I've missed all along (and I'm ashamed).

#1 looks like a bit of red on the bezel was touched up, minor detail. #2 definitely has aftermarket/fake hands with missing lume as mentioned above. #2 and #3 from those pictures I can't confirm if it includes the antimagnetic shield. Assuming the crowns are okay that leaves #1 being decent as-is if you're fine with the 020 round case, or #3 if you risk the shield and movement (ask the seller about it, but typically movements here aren't touched much), don't mind the crumbled dial lume, and want to change the bezel.

Amil/Marina has a handful of them listed (to the small extent that I looked) in excellent shape, but I'm disappointed that nearly every single one of them I found has also had its hands replaced with a modern set (lume on the minute hand is shorter, and each is whiter than the dial dots). No movement shots on most of these either which is more dubious than I have come to expect when their offerings were already being sold as-is. Here is one that has the black bezel, old hands (albeit with some missing lume and brown gunk), antimagnetic shield, and the chrome crown mentioned above. Priced better, but again as-is.

As always though, more will turn up if you're patient.

New and aftermarket bezels will fit, the only thing you need to confirm is that the bezel you're buying is not a wide-bottom one made for only 090, 100, 120, and 150 cases.


----------



## Arizone

Camulos said:


> Hey all. Looking at this Gagarin Sturminskie 17j. Looks good to my (novice) eyes, using the resources I've found on this page. Can any of you experts spot anything amiss? It's not cheap, so if I bought, I'd like it to be all original. I'd also be interested in you suggesting what I might expect to pay for this, to see if it's in line with rough market value. Thanks in advance!


I'm not sure this same watch was discussed in the other thread, but the same advice applies, the hour hand definitely looks silver which is a major red flag. If it's pricey then you can just stay away.


----------



## schnurrp

Arizone said:


> This is what the watch should look like _ideally_. We can't fully confirm whether the watch came with other case and bezel styles or not like the other models, but it's not entirely out of the question either. The 470/320 octagon cases were the most ubiquitous for antimagnetics.
> 
> I wanted to say both #1 and #3 have replaced crowns, chromed brass instead of steel, but as I'm looking at the other pages in the catalog and other 320/470 listings I'm no longer entirely sure. Hopefully someone else can back me up here because I thought all Amphibians after the 300m and swing-lug models had the crimped steel. Must have been a detail I've missed all along (and I'm ashamed).
> 
> #1 looks like a bit of red on the bezel was touched up, minor detail. #2 definitely has aftermarket/fake hands with missing lume as mentioned above. #2 and #3 from those pictures I can't confirm if it includes the antimagnetic shield. Assuming the crowns are okay that leaves #1 being decent as-is if you're fine with the 020 round case, or #3 if you risk the shield and movement (ask the seller about it, but typically movements here aren't touched much), don't mind the crumbled dial lume, and want to change the bezel.
> 
> Amil/Marina has a handful of them listed (to the small extent that I looked) in excellent shape, but I'm disappointed that nearly every single one of them I found has also had its hands replaced with a modern set (lume on the minute hand is shorter, and each is whiter than the dial dots). No movement shots on most of these either which is more dubious than I have come to expect when their offerings were already being sold as-is. Here is one that has the black bezel, old hands (albeit with some missing lume and brown gunk), antimagnetic shield, and the chrome crown mentioned above. Priced better, but again as-is.
> 
> As always though, more will turn up if you're patient.
> 
> New and aftermarket bezels will fit, the only thing you need to confirm is that the bezel you're buying is not a wide-bottom one made for only 090, 100, 120, and 150 cases.


I have the one referenced by comrade Arizone which has the orange arcs at the center of the dial. I used to think white arcs indicated fading but evidently two versions were produced the orange one towards the end of the USSR.

I have never seen this classic dial in any other catalog or reliable collection in a case other than the type 320, polished stainless steel.









https://goo.gl/photos/GuVQjpkEGNNnSJti9


----------



## Camulos

Thanks, I had a look. I did look quite thoroughly and was hoping members might just run their eye over it in case there's anything I missed. It seems to be ok as far as I see. I was also interested in people's thoughts re. price!



mroatman said:


> Discussed at length starting here.


----------



## mroatman

Camulos said:


> Thanks, I had a look. I did look quite thoroughly and was hoping members might just run their eye over it in case there's anything I missed. It seems to be ok as far as I see. I was also interested in people's thoughts re. price!


Oops, I'm sorry, there's not much information at all there. This one was discussed further somewhere else, but I cannot find the link at the moment. As I recall, the consensus was not 100% original, and therefore pretty difficult to valuate.

An original 17-jewel Sturmanskie (and even a good knockoff) could sell from $100 to well over $500.


----------



## Camulos

Silver rather than blue? I couldn't quite decide. If you think so maybe I'll stay away then. I can ask for a close up picture perhaps. And no, I don't think this is the watch from the other thread.



Arizone said:


> I'm not sure this same watch was discussed in the other thread, but the same advice applies, the hour hand definitely looks silver which is a major red flag. If it's pricey then you can just stay away.


----------



## GraX

Is this orient refurbished or what? any thoughts? http://www.ebay.com/itm/112364242679?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

im so sorry i just saw that it is a russian subforum


----------



## Lee356

I'm officially hooked on Russian watches. More mindless browsing I came upon these two. I have my doubts about the first one and I just don't know about the second. I would be glad for a second opinion .


----------



## ThePossumKing

Lee356 said:


> I'm officially hooked on Russian watches. More mindless browsing I came upon these two. I have my doubts about the first one and I just don't know about the second. I would be glad for a second opinion .


First one looks good, although the hour and minute hands MAY have been replaced with newer ones. The second one is an export model. I don't know if it is classified as a 'Dirskie or not, but it looks fine to me.


----------



## Victorv

Hi guys, how are you?

What do you think about this one?, I think it's all original, i just bought for 60$ shipped, it's a good purchase?, I accept suggestion about the strap

On the movement is marked "SU", is there any difference i quality over those thar are not marked?

Many thanks


----------



## mroatman

Victorv said:


> Hi guys, how are you?
> What do you think about this one?, I think it's all original, i just bought for 60$ shipped, it's a good purchase?, I accept suggestion about the strap
> On the movement is marked "SU", is there any difference i quality over those thar are not marked?
> Many thanks


I'm great, Victor, thanks for asking!

Your watch looks great -- a clean dial and a case with minimal gold-plating loss. Looks all original to my eye.

I don't think there are any difference between "SU" and non-SU movements. This was just a later development when international trade standards were developed (SU short for "Soviet Union").

The price is fair for this watch. You can get some strap ideas below:









Congratulations on your latest purchase ✌


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Hi guys, how are you?
> 
> What do you think about this one?, I think it's all original, i just bought for 60$ shipped, it's a good purchase?, I accept suggestion about the strap
> 
> On the movement is marked "SU", is there any difference i quality over those thar are not marked?
> 
> Many thanks


Looks all good to me. Good looking dial and set of hands. It's hard to tell about "brassing" on some photos of gold plated watches but nothing obvious showing except the crown appears to have lost some plating. Movement is fine, ignore the "SU", almost as irrelevant as serial number in my experience. Pretty good for $60, comrade. Plain black or brown unstitched flat calf band would be my choice since so much is going on with the watch itself. Enjoy!


----------



## Victorv

mroatman said:


> I'm great, Victor, thanks for asking!
> 
> Your watch looks great -- a clean dial and a case with minimal gold-plating loss. Looks all original to my eye.
> 
> I don't think there are any difference between "SU" and non-SU movements. This was just a later development when international trade standards were developed (SU short for "Soviet Union").
> 
> The price is fair for this watch. You can get some strap ideas below:
> 
> View attachment 11517866
> 
> 
> Congratulations on your latest purchase ✌





schnurrp said:


> Looks all good to me. Good looking dial and set of hands. It's hard to tell about "brassing" on some photos of gold plated watches but nothing obvious showing except the crown appears to have lost some plating. Movement is fine, ignore the "SU", almost as irrelevant as serial number in my experience. Pretty good for $60, comrade. Plain black or brown unstitched flat calf band would be my choice since so much is going on with the watch itself. Enjoy!


Many thanks guys, really. It's a pleasure this forum, and the help of guys like you. I'm a enthusiast of russian and soviet watches, and was waiting long time for a Worldtime Raketa, i'm very happy with this purchase, the only bad is the waiting. My next shot will be a Big Zero.

Mroatman really like the gold mesh, i think i will go for one like yours.

Many thanks comrades.


----------



## mroatman

Victorv said:


> Mroatman really like the gold mesh, i think i will go for one like yours.


If you are patient enough to wait for shipping from China, these can be had very affordably. I've bought many of these in gold/silver, and I've never been disappointed:

18/20/22/24mm Stainless Steel Wrist Watch Mesh Band Strap Double Clasp Bracelet | eBay


----------



## Victorv

mroatman said:


> If you are patient enough to wait for shipping from China, these can be had very affordably. I've bought many of these in gold/silver, and I've never been disappointed:
> 
> 18/20/22/24mm Stainless Steel Wrist Watch Mesh Band Strap Double Clasp Bracelet | eBay


Many thanks Mroatman, i'm going for one. The correct size is 18mm?

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

Victorv said:


> Many thanks Mroatman, i'm going for one. The correct size is 18mm?


Yes indeed


----------



## Victorv

mroatman said:


> Yes indeed


Thanks you muy friend, i'm going for one

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## gravel

Hi guys, new here and new to Soviet watches. Been keeping an eye on what's available but never pulled the trigger. The more I read the more I worry about Frankensteins.

I quite like the below but it looks far too good to be original. What are thoughts here?

Thanks

mgur.com/xwWIk0O.jpg

There is a gold version that looks very similar (but far more worn) here: ussrtime.com/cgi-bin/details.pl?id=0483

(sorry, new user so no linking or attachments...)


----------



## dutchassasin

gravel said:


> Hi guys, new here and new to Soviet watches. Been keeping an eye on what's available but never pulled the trigger. The more I read the more I worry about Frankensteins.


Added the pictures for you.









Images for ID: 0483


----------



## mroatman

gravel said:


> Hi guys, new here and new to Soviet watches. Been keeping an eye on what's available but never pulled the trigger. The more I read the more I worry about Frankensteins.
> I quite like the below but it looks far too good to be original. What are thoughts here?
> Thanks
> mgur.com/xwWIk0O.jpg
> There is a gold version that looks very similar (but far more worn) here: ussrtime.com/cgi-bin/details.pl?id=0483
> (sorry, new user so no linking or attachments...)


It is, as you feared, a franken. The original arched Luch logo was never found in a chromed case (it should be gold-plated as in the example from ussrtime). And the dial is a modern reproduction. And the second hand should probably be gold.

Keep posting the watches that interest you here. It's the fastest way to learn, and the best way to keep from getting burned.

Good luck!


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> Added the pictures for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Images for ID: 0483


Slashes should always have parallel sides ending in points.


----------



## Nearco

Hello, wise comrades: I have a doubt about this watch seen in the Bay... looks nice, but...









.








.









The watch is signed as Boctok in 1967 or before... but I thought the trademark Boctok or Vostok was created in 1969... is it a "fantasy watch" or am I wrong with the date of birth of Boctok?. Thank you in advance: I learn everyday something new in this thread.

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

Nearco said:


> Hello, wise comrades: I have a doubt about this watch seen in the Bay... looks nice, but...
> The watch is signed as Boctok in 1967 or before... but I thought the trademark Boctok or Vostok was created in 1969... is it a "fantasy watch" or am I wrong with the date of birth of Boctok?. Thank you in advance: I learn everyday something new in this thread.


The only thing "wrong" is the replaced crown -- and that's not anything to be worried about.

The Vostok label was first used in or around 1960 on this watch, then later the entire Chistopol Watch Factory was renamed Vostok in 1964. So this watch fits into the timeline and is absolutely legitimate. 

Here's mine with probably the correct crown but a much worse dial.


----------



## gravel

mroatman said:


> It is, as you feared, a franken. The original arched Luch logo was never found in a chromed case (it should be gold-plated as in the example from ussrtime). And the dial is a modern reproduction. And the second hand should probably be gold.
> 
> Keep posting the watches that interest you here. It's the fastest way to learn, and the best way to keep from getting burned.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks you.

The seller, at least, was honest about it with me (after I posted here):



> Thank you for interest to our shop and wristwatch Luch De Luxe. This watch is extremely rare version of Luch with black dial, watch is assembled from original NOS soviet stock parts and is in perfect condition, not even a scratch, refurbished is seconds hand (new red paint), also watch is fully serviced (cleaned, oiled, adjusted to 3 positions) and keeps very good time, average daily deviation is less than +/- 6-8 sec/day. You can also see hands-on video review of this watch on our YouTube channel here [can't post links]


In any event, the watch looks lovely on video but I'll probably give it a miss (it's £155 plus shipping).


----------



## dutchassasin

gravel said:


> but I'll probably give it a miss (it's £155 plus shipping).


At that price i suggest:


----------



## mroatman

gravel said:


> I'll probably give it a miss (it's £155 plus shipping).


Wow, did you forget a decimal point? The watch is worth no more than £15 (and most here wouldn't even pay that on account of the counterfeit dial).

Even an authentic Luch in NOS condition with box and papers would likely cost less than £155 + shipping.

Definitely, definitely best to pass.


----------



## Ticonderoga

I have a few questions as I'm still learning about all of the watches. I found these three reference photos and I'm trying to understand what's what. I'd appreciate opinions as to my assumptions on these three watches:

The first watch is referenced as an 80's Komandarskie. The dial and case look flawless so I'm assuming either this is NOS or it has a new bezel and dial?









The next two watches, one is listed as a 70's Komandarskie and the other as an Amphibia, also from the 70's. In both examples, the dials look to be dated to 40 years past and the cases show appropriate wear for said time.

Komandarskie - In this example, I see patina on the red star, indicies, lume, etc. And, on the bezel, the red paint seems aged and I think that this watch is pretty much "original looking." However, the crown does seem a bit off color and sticks out a bit, not sure if that is normal or not?









Amphibia - In this example, it looks well aged to me. I am wondering if the hands, bezel & crown are all correct? Does this watch look authentic for details or is it a franken collection?


----------



## Nearco

mroatman said:


> The only thing "wrong" is the replaced crown -- and that's not anything to be worried about.
> 
> The Vostok label was first used in or around 1960 on this watch, then later the entire Chistopol Watch Factory was renamed Vostok in 1964. So this watch fits into the timeline and is absolutely legitimate.
> 
> Here's mine with probably the correct crown but a much worse dial.


Thank you for your fast answer... I have learned, again. Your watch is a great one.

Enviado desde mi iPad utilizando Tapatalk


----------



## AGAPITO

When I look at this watch, it reminds me of a Vostok, but I see it's a Poljot. I find it`s difficult to say that it could be a Franken watch, I would even say it looks made in the 60's ... Do you think the watch is authentic or franken?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> When I look at this watch, it reminds me of a Vostok, but I see it's a Poljot. I find it`s difficult to say that it could be a Franken watch, I would even say it looks made in the 60's ... Do you think the watch is authentic or franken?
> 
> Thank you in advance.
> 
> View attachment 11562026
> 
> 
> View attachment 11562034


Authentic, imho, comrade.

https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipMOmTGxNhPEHjM7tgDTbUFbwtXaUHxk9ip0Ryvd

I also believe the second hand may be a rather rare but cool variation on this general watch type based on this one I have:


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I also believe the second hand may be a rather rare but cool variation on this general watch type based on this one I have:


Maybe, but I think that second hand comes from a Sputnik or, more likely, a different design entirely.

Here's probably the nicest example of the 1MWF lightening dial I've ever seen, courtesy of Boxer: Orosz órák


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Maybe, but I think that second hand comes from a Sputnik or, more likely, a different design entirely.
> 
> Here's probably the nicest example of the 1MWF lightening dial I've ever seen, courtesy of Boxer: Orosz órák
> 
> View attachment 11569002


No, I've owned all three and this one is the only one that does not curve down at the end and it has a smaller ball than the other two.....in my opinion.

That is a nice dial on Boxer's example but that second hand can't be right, can it?


----------



## AGAPITO

schnurrp said:


> Authentic, imho, comrade.
> 
> https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipMOmTGxNhPEHjM7tgDTbUFbwtXaUHxk9ip0Ryvd
> 
> I also believe the second hand may be a rather rare but cool variation on this general watch type based on this one I have:
> 
> View attachment 11562242


Thank you very much comrade.

If I understand the question correctly, and I say all this with ignorance, since I do not consider myself an expert, surprisingly, the second hand seems to me more consistent with this Poljot 2408 watch than the second hand of the watch that shows Mroatman. I´d associate that black color more with Soviet watches from the 80's.

The yellow second hand and the rest of hands and dial also seems coherent, with the signals of the passage of time. It seems to be even a second hand chronologically coincident with the production of 2408 clocks (we know it by the 2408 Sputnik).

The font used in the Poljot dial also seems to me chronologically coincident with a Poljot from the 60s (the latter, learning to differentiate the letter characters used in the Poljot, was explained to me by Mroatman).

Another thing is that the yellow second hand does not seem to coincide with the sample catalog, and perhaps, that it is a 2408 watch with some signs of wear and without shock-protection. Do you look like a valuable watch?


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> No, I've owned all three and this one is the only one that does not curve down at the end and it has a smaller ball than the other two.....in my opinion.


Maybe one of these? Smaller ball, less curvature, and catalog evidence -- something we lack with your configuration ?



















schnurrp said:


> That is a nice dial on Boxer's example but that second hand can't be right, can it?


Yeah, probably not. There just aren't a lot of these around to compare against, and most are in horrendous condition. Here's another for educational purposes, with no guarantees of authenticity.


----------



## Hitohira

Hi
long time lurker, fresh in russian toys 
I've stumbled in this shiny Pobeda on ebay, not sure if it's franken or not (I don't mind it if it is, just want to know what I'm getting into)






















Seller states it's from 1970s,

I'm also eyeing this Vostok





















no info beside images :/
edit: are those scratches on the dial? on 1-2, 4-5 and so on numbers.

Thanks in advance


----------



## OrangeOrange

The pobeda isn't from the 70's it's from present day Russia. The Vostok is probably from around the 70's. I'm not sure if the dial is correct on the Vostok.


----------



## schnurrp

No, there's no catalog evidence but two similarly cased and motored examples, from roughly the same time, with the same second hand. Just saying it might have been a rare variation.

Here's mine (sold) showing the curve of the second hand. I also think it's longer. The hand in question is about 15mm long, the hand on my sputnik, 17mm.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> No, there's no catalog evidence but two similarly cased and motored examples, from roughly the same time, with the same second hand. Just saying it might have been a rare variation.


Yes, definitely possible.


----------



## mroatman

Hitohira said:


> Hi
> long time lurker, fresh in russian toys
> I've stumbled in this shiny Pobeda on ebay, not sure if it's franken or not (I don't mind it if it is, just want to know what I'm getting into)
> Seller states it's from 1970s,
> 
> I'm also eyeing this Vostok
> no info beside images :/
> edit: are those scratches on the dial? on 1-2, 4-5 and so on numbers.
> Thanks in advance


Welcome, Hitohira!

The Pobeda says "Made in Russia" on the dial, so it is from the 1990s or newer. It appears completely authentic to me.

The Vostok has a repainted dial that is not original. You can see the "slashes" used for hour marks in the previous dial. The new dial was just crudely painted over this. Best to pass on this watch, unless it's cheap and you just like it.


----------



## Hitohira

mroatman said:


> Welcome, Hitohira!
> 
> The Pobeda says "Made in Russia" on the dial, so it is from the 1990s or newer. It appears completely authentic to me.
> 
> The Vostok has a repainted dial that is not original. You can see the "slashes" used for hour marks in the previous dial. The new dial was just crudely painted over this. Best to pass on this watch, unless it's cheap and you just like it.


Thanks a lot,
I'll pass on that vostok, those "slashes" will probably drive me crazy everytime I'd look at them lol. I may pull the triger on the Pobeda one, eventho it's not really vintage.


----------



## Hitohira

double post :/


----------



## AGAPITO

mroatman said:


> Yes, definitely possible.


Thank you. As you, Mroatman and Schnrupp say, it seems that once all the timepieces were renamed Poljot, the factory wanted to make a kind of Poljot Civil with designed similar to 1MWF Sputnik Kirovskie. I suppose that because the Sputnik kirovskie could no longer be manufactured.

Both of you have two watches which second hand perfectly matches the dial. In fact, I think that combination of the second hand and the dial is better achieved in your two watches. And maybe that combination does not make as much sense on the 2408 watch I taught you.

I congratulate you both for having two watches so well preserved. I especially like the variant with gold-plated case. Two beauties in my opinion.

I also believe that although the catalog shows the other variant with chrome case, there was also the version with gold-plated box, which was perfectly original and chronologically consistent with cases produced at that time. I have sometimes read in connection with Sputnik Kirovskie (or another watches) that the gold-plated case would not be original, but I think it's a pointless discussion.


----------



## Neruda

Big Franken or Little Franken?

























Looks like an authentic Komandirskie dial - I haven't seen this variation before, but guess it commemorates the 50th anniversary of the formation of the Soviet Union, thus dating it to 1972. (just visible on the rim at 6 o'clock, CCCP).
But a Komandirskie dial in an Amphibia case, certainly possible but at this date?
Hour and minutes hands genuine Amphibia from the 1970s? Second hand probably 70s Vostok but not Komandirskie or Amphibian. Strange combination! Domed crown possibly genuine for an Amphibia case of this date? Bezel authentic? 2214 movement, not the earliest (with stars on rachet, logo on escapement bridge, weighted balance wheel etc) but compatible with early 70s?
Caseback seems a no-no - marked for 2209 movement and lettered in English. Also I believe early Amphibia casebacks had "hermetic 20 atm", when did this change to "waterproof 200m"?

Lots of reasons to dismiss this as a Franken - but as most of the disparate parts seem consistent with a date around 1972, I just wonder....


----------



## miroman

Neruda said:


> Big Franken or Little Franken?
> 
> Looks like an authentic Komandirskie dial - I haven't seen this variation before, but guess it commemorates the 50th anniversary of the formation of the Soviet Union, thus dating it to 1972. (just visible on the rim at 6 o'clock, CCCP)


This dial is really rare, it's from a commemorative model from '68:

 

1918 is the official year of creating of the Union of the Soviet Socialistic Republic (USSR, СССР).

Regards, Miro.


----------



## schtozo

Hello, new to boctok and would like an opinion on this one. anything not normal? i already pulled the trigger on it so fingers crossed.

Pics:


----------



## elsoldemayo

Neruda said:


> Big Franken or Little Franken?


Big


----------



## mroatman

elsoldemayo said:


> Big


Haha, indeed


----------



## Neruda

Thanks, Elsoldemayo and Mroatman. I too have my very serious doubts about this watch, gut feeling says it's wrong and impossible but I can't say exactly why.... help me! Two specific points I didn't like were the hands configuration and the caseback. But both features appear on a different watch from a different seller - so, is this also a Franken?














Again, my first feeling would be to dismiss the second watch - but it does appear to have one of the earlier 2209 movements which could put it in a similar time-frame.

Thanks too to Miroman. The photos are beautiful. I've seen a couple of examples of the 1918-1968 caseback but in both the red star is very faded and doesn't seem to have the "50". One was described as a commemoration for the ending of the First World War, and the second as a celebration of 50 years of the Red Army. I believe the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic was founded in 1918, but the Union (USSR) was officially created in 1922 - I may be wrong! Either way, the caseback seems to pretty conclusively date the dial to 1968.


----------



## mariomart

Neruda said:


> Thanks, Elsoldemayo and Mroatman. I too have my very serious doubts about this watch, gut feeling says it's wrong and impossible but I can't say exactly why.... help me! Two specific points I didn't like were the hands configuration and the caseback. But both features appear on a different watch from a different seller - so, is this also a Franken?
> 
> Again, my first feeling would be to dismiss the second watch - but it does appear to have one of the earlier 2209 movements which could put it in a similar time-frame.
> 
> Thanks too to Miroman. The photos are beautiful. I've seen a couple of examples of the 1918-1968 caseback but in both the red star is very faded and doesn't seem to have the "50". One was described as a commemoration for the ending of the First World War, and the second as a celebration of 50 years of the Red Army. I believe the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic was founded in 1918, but the Union (USSR) was officially created in 1922 - I may be wrong! Either way, the caseback seems to pretty conclusively date the dial to 1968.


In my opinion, other than the second hand and possibly the crown (should have a slight domed crown on early 119 cases, although I may be wrong) it looks all good.

Here is a catalog photo from around 1980


----------



## mroatman

The movement and case-back are also mismatched with the dial, the former parts being in English and the latter being in Cyrillic. That, combined with the skeleton hands, incorrect second hand, and probably-replaced crown gives the feeling of something quite franken-y to meeeee... 😬


----------



## Arizone

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schtozo said:


> Hello, new to boctok and would like an opinion on this one. anything not normal? i already pulled the trigger on it so fingers crossed.


Edit: I spoke too soon. Does the dial say 21 or 31 jewels? Because it certainly is not an automatic, meaning it has a 17 jewel manual wind movement. I know such mislabling on the dials have occurred before and the time period that it is from was a little screwy. Everything else looks to be in order.


----------



## schtozo

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Arizone said:


> Edit: I spoke too soon. Does the dial say 21 or 31 jewels? Because it certainly is not an automatic, meaning it has a 17 jewel manual wind movement. I know such mislabling on the dials have occurred before and the time period that it is from was a little screwy. Everything else looks to be in order.


Thank you... it says 21 not 31. So only a misspell?! Thats good, most certainly when it grows older itll be worth a fortune.. lol


----------



## sonics

Received my rare extra large titanium case amphibia today. What do you think? The dial seems to be Komandirskie but case is amphibia type. Is there a source for the original blue scuba dude dial?

































Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## sonics

Swaped dial and movement with another watch. I think it looks better now.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk


----------



## sunandrw

An acquaintance of mine is trying to sell this Poljot to me. Is it a franken or a real Poljot? Should I buy it?


----------



## mroatman

A watch with a similar bezel design is shown on the cover of the 1994 Poljot catalog:









Several alarm watches appear in the same catalog, but none exactly like yours.









If I had to guess, I would say the "Signal" you show is authentic, but I am no expert on post-Soviet watches.

Welcome to the forums!


----------



## XsiOn

Hi guys,

I found another watch I like. What do you think, is this legit Raketa 2209?

Thanks, Peter


----------



## schnurrp

Not much to complain about on that one. The crown looks a little big and of a different color from the case so it may be a replacement but going by the condition of the rest of the watch, it shouldn't have worn out. Maybe the previous owner had it switched out to make it easier to wind and set. How much?


----------



## XsiOn

schnurrp said:


> Not much to complain about on that one. The crown looks a little big and of a different color from the case so it may be a replacement but going by the condition of the rest of the watch, it shouldn't have worn out. Maybe the previous owner had it switched out to make it easier to wind and set. How much?


90€ for this one. Just my luck, always problem with crowns 

If I understand it should be quite rare one?

Peter


----------



## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> 90€ for this one. Just my luck, always problem with crowns
> 
> If I understand it should be quite rare one?
> 
> Peter


"Rare" is a difficult term to quantify, and when I can go on eBay on any given day and find several similar examples (as you can today), I wouldn't say it's the most accurate adjective. But yeah, let's say "not too common in good condition". €90 seems like the going rate, or thereabouts.

The crown is definitely replaced, in my opinion (the original is a bit smaller and more rounded/streamlined) -- but it's not a big deal. I wouldn't let it discourage you from buying.

A truly beautiful watch!


----------



## schnurrp

XsiOn said:


> 90€ for this one. Just my luck, always problem with crowns
> 
> If I understand it should be quite rare one?
> 
> Peter


Not the rarest dial but there were far fewer of these made than the Raketas with the 2609x movements. That one is all about condition, though. Notice there doesn't appear to be any scratching at the notch where the back is removed. If it's yours, I would be careful to keep it in that condition if/when you remove the back. I would definitely be looking for a crown like this one, perhaps:









This picture also shows that the movement usually has the jewel count on the winding bridge. Why yours doesn't, I don't know. If you haven't bought yet, you might want to consider an offer on that one, which is not in as good condition as the one you show but is very nice, as long as you can confirm that comrade miroman has taken pictures with the crown in setting position and it can be returned tightly to the body.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Not much to complain about on that one. The crown looks a little big and of a different color from the case so it may be a replacement but going by the condition of the rest of the watch, it shouldn't have worn out. Maybe the previous owner had it switched out to make it easier to wind and set. How much?


Upon closer examination, there appears to be some slight dial quality problems at the left edge of the watch continuing around to the crown. This may be the result of bad photography but it's there to my eye and inconsistent with the condition of the body. Both body types authentic.


----------



## XsiOn

schnurrp said:


> Not the rarest dial but there were far fewer of these made than the Raketas with the 2609x movements. That one is all about condition, though. Notice there doesn't appear to be any scratching at the notch where the back is removed. If it's yours, I would be careful to keep it in that condition if/when you remove the back. I would definitely be looking for a crown like this one, perhaps:
> 
> View attachment 11664874
> 
> 
> This picture also shows that the movement usually has the jewel count on the winding bridge. Why yours doesn't, I don't know. If you haven't bought yet, you might want to consider an offer on that one, which is not in as good condition as the one you show but is very nice, as long as you can confirm that comrade miroman has taken pictures with the crown in setting position and it can be returned tightly to the body.


I just might offer for the one from miroman. I am a little concern as there are no gems stated on the bridge. Do you think it might be franken?

BR, Peter

I might to try t


----------



## mroatman

XsiOn said:


> I just might offer for the one from miroman. I am a little concern as there are no gems stated on the bridge. Do you think it might be franken?
> 
> BR, Peter


Definitely not franken -- just a different movement generation. Miroman is actually an expert on these and a fellow forum member; he can tell you more.


----------



## Hitohira

Hi again,

What can you tell me about this dial? Seller states it's from 80s, but I can't seem to find it in official catalogues. 







Seconds hand also appears different from some other listings I saw.

What about this one? The hands don't feel right to me.








Just want to be sure


----------



## mroatman

Hitohira said:


> Hi again,
> What can you tell me about this dial? Seller states it's from 80s, but I can't seem to find it in official catalogues.
> Seconds hand also appears different from some other listings I saw.
> What about this one? The hands don't feel right to me.
> Just want to be sure


The first one is legitimate, not shown in any catalogs that I'm aware of. As you suspect, the second hand is replaced. This model came in black and gold, evidently.

















Oh, and the second one is original, including the hands.


----------



## Hitohira

mroatman said:


> The first one is legitimate, not shown in any catalogs that I'm aware of. As you suspect, the second hand is replaced. This model came in black and gold, evidently.
> 
> Oh, and the second one is original, including the hands.


And I was kinda sure that Pobeda should have goldish-like hands too lol. Currently on biding, will see how much it reaches.

Thanks


----------



## mroatman

Hitohira said:


> And I was kinda sure that Pobeda should have goldish-like hands too lol.


Well, don't believe it just because I said so. I certainly don't have a perfect track records around here, and gold may indeed be the "right" color -- but I've never seen this model in any catalogs so it'd be difficult to prove.

Anyway, the black hands do look legitimate to me


----------



## Hitohira

mroatman said:


> Well, don't believe it just because I said so. I certainly don't have a perfect track records around here, and gold may indeed be the "right" color -- but I've never seen this model in any catalogs so it'd be difficult to prove.
> 
> Anyway, the black hands do look legitimate to me


I think I've found it, first on page 6 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B889JfohTE3NTHR0QXByNnViM1U/view

Then again, found severall listings on ebay, all with same black hands, so I wouldn't exclude this variation too. Not many Pobeda catalogues around that I know of :/
If I get it for cheap within EU, I'll be satisfied with black too


----------



## mroatman

Hitohira said:


> I think I've found it, first on page 6
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B889JfohTE3NTHR0QXByNnViM1U/view
> 
> Then again, found severall listings on ebay, all with same black hands, so I wouldn't exclude this variation too. Not many Pobeda catalogues around that I know of :/
> If I get it for cheap within EU, I'll be satisfied with black too


Super detective work! I've never seen this catalog before, and didn't even know there _was_ a Pobeda catalog produced so late. Cool stuff.

Yes, I agree that these hands are likely a valid variation. I've seen this shape/style/color on a range of ZIM-built Pobedas, so I would say you can buy with confidence.


----------



## Andrew.Howell

I just picked up this Marnna pocket watch overseas and I was wondering if it was authentic or not and how i could tell.


----------



## mroatman

Andrew.Howell said:


> I just picked up this Marnna pocket watch overseas and I was wondering if it was authentic or not and how i could tell.


The brand is Молния ("Molniya", meaning lightning), and it looks good to me.


----------



## Ticonderoga

This Vostok Amphibian appears to be NOS but the dial just looks too new, to "overly-printed."









Compared with others I've seen:









Not sure if it is just a never worn watch or if it is a new dial.


----------



## mariomart

Ticonderoga said:


> This Vostok Amphibian appears to be NOS but the dial just looks too new, to "overly-printed."
> Compared with others I've seen:
> Not sure if it is just a never worn watch or if it is a new dial.


Looks good to me. Sometimes watches end up in dark corners and in the back of cupboards and largely forgotten, which means the vivid reds get to live a longer life.

I would happily buy that one mainly for it's superb overall condition. Looking at the other photo's in the listing I wouldn't classify it as "NOS" or Mint Condition as it does have some minor scratches and a little bit of dirt, however with a little polish and a clean it would have no problem getting to Near Mint condition in my opinion.


----------



## AGAPITO

Comrades, what do you think? Legit or not? (Let´s think the movement is correct, I have not more pictures). Thank you in advance..


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> Comrades, what do you think? Legit or not? (Let´s think the movement is correct, I have not more pictures). Thank you in advance..
> 
> View attachment 11758754
> 
> 
> View attachment 11758762


Commemorative version of this one from 1980 catalog, I believe. I'd rather not see the red second hand, though, and I think lume has been added to the hands and lume dots to the dial.


----------



## Lokifish

As some of you may know I found a case variant recently. I am now trying to get it to at least case/model type correct status. Here's the problem;

Komandirskie crystals are too short (the bezel ends up taller than the crystal's edge)
Komandirskie case backs result in the retention ring seating far deeper than any dirskie I've ever seen
Amphibia crystals show proper bezel/crystal height
Amphibia case backs have the retention ring sitting at a depth seen on all my Amphibias and elsewhere

What I do know is every indication points to it being an Amphibia but without a 07x or large crown 92x to compare it to I am missing two much needed reference points. So I ask this:


Do 07x and 92x large crown dirskie's have the same crystal as an Amphibia?
Are 07x and 92x large crown dirskie's "Orca" case backs the same thickness as the Amphibia?

I think I know what the answers will be but could use more eyes on this in case I missed something.

Thanks in advance


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Comrades, what do you think? Legit or not? (Let´s think the movement is correct, I have not more pictures). Thank you in advance..


Is the dial embossed? I have two of these (1, 2), but the dial is embossed on both.

Overall it looks OK to me, especially considering it includes the commemorative case-back. But the photos aren't too clear.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Is the dial embossed? I have two of these (1, 2), but the dial is embossed on both.
> 
> Overall it looks OK to me, especially considering it includes the commemorative case-back. But the photos aren't too clear.


The watch has had lume added, hasn't it? Notice the off-center "dots" at some hour bars.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> The watch has had lume added, hasn't it? Notice the off-center "dots" at some hour bars.


Could be, but that looks more like paint than lume. And the Olympic pattern appears somehow etched into the dial rather than embossed. I honestly haven't seen anything like this blue commemorative dial before, so I have no idea what's what. I think we need some better photos.


----------



## AGAPITO

schnurrp said:


> Commemorative version of this one from 1980 catalog, I believe. I'd rather not see the red second hand, though, and I think lume has been added to the hands and lume dots to the dial.
> 
> View attachment 11763746


Thank you.

Curiously, after seeing the image of the catalog and reading your comments and those of Mroatman, I see the doubts in the more general details and not so much in such concrete aspects of the dial (although it seems to me correct what you both indicate).

Let me explain: I would say that the hands should have a black line, which matches the minute markers on the dial, but hands are very white. Do not you think it's strange?

And I don´t see a red second hand in the catalog image, which suggests a golden or black color.. Does it remind you of a red second hand in a current Komandirskie?


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Curiously, after seeing the image of the catalog and reading your comments and those of Mroatman, I see the doubts in the more general details and not so much in such concrete aspects of the dial (although it seems to me correct what you both indicate).
> 
> Let me explain: I would say that the hands should have a black line, which matches the minute markers on the dial, but hands are very white. Do not you think it's strange?
> 
> And I don´t see a red second hand in the catalog image, which suggests a golden or black color.. Does it remind you of a red second hand in a current Komandirskie?


The red second hand is of a very general shape and could be from several different watches. But, yes, I believe the hands should match the hour bars and that lume or paint has been added. Also, a minor detail, there is no jewel count which makes me wonder if that whole inner dial is a fake.

The design of these watches always struck me as being very subtle, elegant, and understated play between the hands and the hour bars when they meet so the white color on the hands and the white marks at the hour bars destroys the effect for me. It's too "busy" and the red second hand just adds to the "busy"-ness.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Do not you think it's strange?


Yes, I do. Are there any better photos available?


----------



## AGAPITO

mroatman said:


> Yes, I do. Are there any better photos available?


Unfortunately, there are no better photos. However, I think the fundamental image is the watch that Schnurrp has uploaded to the forum, the hands have a black line that matches the black lines of dial markers. And your comment "I honestly haven't seen anything like this blue commemorative dial before"...For me is enough, as "Go Away".

The seller has only posted those two pictures, although this watch reminds me the hands of this 2414 vostok watch that a Ukrainian seller is selling on Ebay. If I'm not mistaken, I think you and Schnurrp told me that this other watch was not congruent (authentic).









Look at the picture. I think the watch is nice, maybe I do not like the case so much, but the dial is nice and bright. But as Schnurrp rightly says, "the hands should match the hour bars". I think it's a general rule in Soviet watchmaking.

I would say that the hands of this 2414 Vostok are not original (perhaps the hands are from a Slava watch), and something similar happens on both watches.

If I am correct, it is possible that the original hands were in good condition (look at the good conservation of the dial), and perhaps the original hands were changed to beautify the watch for a possible sale.


----------



## schnurrp

AGAPITO said:


> Unfortunately, there are no better photos. However, I think the fundamental image is the watch that Schnurrp has uploaded to the forum, the hands have a black line that matches the black lines of dial markers. And your comment "I honestly haven't seen anything like this blue commemorative dial before"...For me is enough, as "Go Away".
> 
> The seller has only posted those two pictures, although this watch reminds me the hands of this 2414 vostok watch that a Ukrainian seller is selling on Ebay. If I'm not mistaken, I think you and Schnurrp told me that this other watch was not congruent (authentic).
> 
> View attachment 11776538
> 
> 
> Look at the picture. I think the watch is nice, maybe I do not like the case so much, but the dial is nice and bright. But as Schnurrp rightly says, "the hands should match the hour bars". I think it's a general rule in Soviet watchmaking.
> 
> I would say that the hands of this 2414 Vostok are not original (perhaps the hands are from a Slava watch), and something similar happens on both watches.
> 
> If I am correct, it is possible that the original hands were in good condition (look at the good conservation of the dial), and perhaps the original hands were changed to beautify the watch for a possible sale.


This may be an exception since the authentic hands don't seem to match that well and are not like the ones pictured above.

This one, a chrome plated version, is the correct combination, I think:







Dashiel's gold plate version with similar "no tail" hands: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/vostok?lightbox=dataItem-ij9ktbp9


----------



## Lucky_Luke

This is my Vostok Precision watch. Is it legit? And How old is it?


----------



## AGAPITO

schnurrp said:


> This may be an exception since the authentic hands don't seem to match that well and are not like the ones pictured above.
> 
> This one, a chrome plated version, is the correct combination, I think:
> 
> View attachment 11776706
> Dashiel's gold plate version with similar "no tail" hands: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/vostok?lightbox=dataItem-ij9ktbp9


Exact. The Mroatman´s watch is the correct version and the 2414 Vostok hands are not original. Maybe both watches are from 80s...

In the end, everything makes me think that the Soviet watchmaking is an interesting and dangerous adventure at the same time .... For example, I think I will never be aware of how fortunate I was when I bought my Okeah, and I had confirmation in this forum that it was an authentic Okeah watch. But it could have been in the opposite direction. Sometimes there are people who have bought an Okeah (or another Soviet watch) and it is not original.


----------



## AGAPITO

Lucky_Luke said:


> This is my Vostok Precision watch. Is it legit? And How old is it?


I´m not an expert, but I have seen another 22j Vostok precision, and I think it´s 100% original. It looks like a watch that has received a careful treatment of its owner (I always like to see that, and not the opposite), and that is kept in good condition. Even I would say the most frankenized elements (for me, the second hand and the crown) are original ... Congrats.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Dashiell's gold plate version with similar "no tail" hands: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/vostok?lightbox=dataItem-ij9ktbp9


Slightly different case, too, but yes, I agree with your assessment.

1979 Catalog:











AGAPITO said:


> And your comment "I honestly haven't seen anything like this blue commemorative dial before"...For me is enough, as "Go Away".


Haha, nooooo! ? That's what makes it intriguing!


----------



## mroatman

Lucky_Luke said:


> This is my Vostok Precision watch. Is it legit? And How old is it?


Nice catch, Lucky! You finally got yours. Congratulations.

The inscription looks to say 1964, which would make it 53 years old.

Everything looks 100% authentic to me. Maybe it just needs a proper 17mm strap ?


----------



## Lucky_Luke

mroatman said:


> Nice catch, Lucky! You finally got yours. Congratulations.
> 
> The inscription looks to say 1964, which would make it 53 years old.
> 
> Everything looks 100% authentic to me. Maybe it just needs a proper 17mm strap 


Thank Dashiell.
The price is $95 and $9 shipping.


----------



## Arizone

Wait a minute...these hands look familiar...


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> Wait a minute...these hands look familiar...


Haha wut!!!!

Did you snag 'em??


----------



## dutchassasin

Arizone said:


> Wait a minute...these hands look familiar...


Sturmanskie ones?


----------



## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> Sturmanskie ones?


15j, definitely.


----------



## schnurrp

dutchassasin said:


> Sturmanskie ones?


Who owns that?

I have case and movement:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/15-jewel-sturmanskie-gagarin-q3-49-a-4009634-8.html

#73


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Who owns that?
> I have case and movement:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/15-jewel-sturmanskie-gagarin-q3-49-a-4009634-8.html
> #73


I'm pretty sure I could source a battered original dial if we wanted to make this a community project. Maybe a timeshare watch?


----------



## Arizone

Feel free to help yourselves, I don't need 'em.

WOSTOK 17 JEWELS MEN'S WRISTWATCH MOVEMENT FOR PARTS OR SERVICE USSR | eBay


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> I'm pretty sure I could source a battered original dial if we wanted to make this a community project. Maybe a timeshare watch?





Arizone said:


> Feel free to help yourselves, I don't need 'em.
> 
> WOSTOK 17 JEWELS MEN'S WRISTWATCH MOVEMENT FOR PARTS OR SERVICE USSR | eBay


I'm game.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I'm game.


Movement runs pretty good, as I remember, but does not hack. I'd have to see if I could retrofit a 17 jewel hacking mechanism if it can't be fixed.


----------



## dmnc

What are people's thoughts on this one? The case, crown and movement look ok to me, but I am by no means an expert. On the hands and dial, I haven't a clue.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JedIsDead

How common is it for new watches to be Frankens?

I bought this 120662 from Amazon and it just seems fishy.

The paperwork it came with lists 090662 for the watch's ID number, which is wrong.

The movement should be a 2416b, but I opened the case back and it says 2431 on it. Unless I'm mistaken 2431 was a 24 hour movement, and this watch is definitely not a 24 hour watch.

The date of manufacture on the paperwork is 28.12.16. Is it possible that I got an almost brand-new watch that is a complete franken?

https://www.amazon.com/VOSTOK-AMPHI...8&qid=1494880092&sr=8-1&keywords=vostok+12662


----------



## bpmurray

JedIsDead said:


> How common is it for new watches to be Frankens?
> 
> I bought this 120662 from Amazon and it just seems fishy.
> 
> The paperwork it came with lists 090662 for the watch's ID number, which is wrong.
> 
> The movement should be a 2416b, but I opened the case back and it says 2431 on it. Unless I'm mistaken 2431 was a 24 hour movement, and this watch is definitely not a 24 hour watch.
> 
> The date of manufacture on the paperwork is 28.12.16. Is it possible that I got an almost brand-new watch that is a complete franken?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/VOSTOK-AMPHI...8&qid=1494880092&sr=8-1&keywords=vostok+12662


Hi Jed,

I don't know enough about new Vostoks to comment on your watch specifically, but one thing to note is that you purchased this watch from "Ru.Store" and not from Amazon, or Vostok directly:









I don't know anything about Ru.Store's reputation either, but just something to note for future purchases.


----------



## dmnc

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



JedIsDead said:


> How common is it for new watches to be Frankens?
> 
> I bought this 120662 from Amazon and it just seems fishy.
> 
> The paperwork it came with lists 090662 for the watch's ID number, which is wrong.
> 
> The movement should be a 2416b, but I opened the case back and it says 2431 on it. Unless I'm mistaken 2431 was a 24 hour movement, and this watch is definitely not a 24 hour watch.
> 
> The date of manufacture on the paperwork is 28.12.16. Is it possible that I got an almost brand-new watch that is a complete franken?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/VOSTOK-AMPHI...8&qid=1494880092&sr=8-1&keywords=vostok+12662


Do you have a picture of the movement?

That watch pictured in the link really shouldn't have a 2431. Does the hour hand go round at the normal rate? If not, it could just be a single swapped over part but either way, it shouldn't be there I'm afraid.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JedIsDead

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

Here is the movement. It looks pretty normal except for the incorrect numbering. The watch below it is my buddy's 420 from Zenitar. It has matching paperwork and says 2416b.

Mine keeps excellent time and looks good, but I'm kinda bummed that I'm doubting it's authenticity and its my first one. I guess if anyone was wanting to purchase from Ru.Store; then they should probably reconsider.


----------



## Arizone

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



JedIsDead said:


> Here is the movement. It looks pretty normal except for the incorrect numbering. The watch below it is my buddy's 420 from Zenitar. It has matching paperwork and says 2416b.
> 
> Mine keeps excellent time and looks good, but I'm kinda bummed that I'm doubting it's authenticity and its my first one. I guess if anyone was wanting to purchase from Ru.Store; then they should probably reconsider.
> 
> View attachment 11835634


I've seen a lot of odder combinations brand new pop up recently making me think Vostok is trying to rid of as many parts they can before rolling out newer models, just as they did in the early 90's. I would contact your seller and mention the paperwork does not match, perhaps say you are worried about making a warranty claim if the number does not match.


----------



## JedIsDead

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Arizone said:


> I've seen a lot of odder combinations brand new pop up recently making me think Vostok is trying to rid of as many parts they can before rolling out newer models, just as they did in the early 90's. I would contact your seller and mention the paperwork does not match, perhaps say you are worried about making a warranty claim if the number does not match.


Ok. Thanks for the advice. If it came this way from the factory, then I'm not too worried about it. They could have just used that bridge piece with the incorrect stamping to lean out parts inventory like you said.

I will contact them and see what they say. I'll post the reply in this thread for documentation.


----------



## Eaglebone

Is this one legit? Bought on eBay a couple of days ago in a moment of impulsiveness!


----------



## JedIsDead

This is what they said:



> Dear Sir,
> 
> thank you for your mail!
> 
> No needs to be worry - you have Vostok Amphibian watch and any part of this watch is from Vostok factory. We sell Vostok watches about 10 years and during this time I see only once fake Vostok watches - cheap quartz of Komandirskie from China. I think fake Vostok does not exist, because these watches are not so popluar like Casio and the main reason is because Vostok watch has mechanical movement and low price. Senselessly for Chinese guys to make it, because the total price of fake watch maybe more than original price.
> 
> Answers:
> 
> - papers included into the box may differ from the model. We manually put inside our multi language manual and frankly speaking we don't check factory papers - they are not important for foreign customers (because there are no Vostok warranty centers in US). This info is important for domestic customers only. Not so often, but probably 2-3 times in a year, we receive watches from Vostok with wrong models in the papers, but even warranty centers does not pay attention for this mistake.
> 
> - if your watch has a date window - it has only 2416b movement. 2431 movement has K35 watches and the size of 2431 movement is more than 2416b, impossible to fit it into Amphibian case.
> There are 2 versions of the rotor of 2416b and 2415 movements, please find them at the picture http://dl3.joxi.net/drive/2017/05/16/0001/1318/83238/38/dd2330492d.jpg (with / without B).
> 
> Each our watch sold at Amazon has one year manufacturer / seller warranty.
> 
> If you have any question feel free to contact us!
> 
> Regards,
> Sergey


If we take his word for it, then it sounds like it came that way from the factory.


----------



## schnurrp

Eaglebone said:


> View attachment 11846274
> View attachment 11846314
> Is this on
> 
> e legit? Bought on eBay a couple of days ago in a moment of impulsiveness!


Yes, I think so.

To be exactly like this one in Michelle's collection it would need to have a plain back. Both have that plain nickel-plated second hand. That back my be authentic since all other parts appear to be.


----------



## Lokifish

LOL, photos of fake Chinese Vostoks are pretty easy to come by. There's even a few in this thread alone.

Not having the proper paperwork downgrades the watch from papered to catalog correct, or period correct. Tossing in that the 120 series never had a 24hr movement (to my knowledge), that makes it franken out of the box but with no documentation to back it up. So from a value/credibility standpoint, it's no different than frankens found on the bay.

2431 won't fit in an Amphibia case? I think you watch proves otherwise unless that bridge piece is the wrong part.

Either way, an unpapered factory franken is no different than any franken you find on the bay.

Just my 2C


----------



## Neruda

Eaglebone - your watch looks fine to me. The photo posted by Schnurrp is sightly different in that it was sold in special military shops and although you can't see it, it will be marked 3AKA3 beneath the 6 o'clock. These appear to have (nearly?) always had a plain caseback. Your caseback is perfectly correct for the civilian version.


----------



## Eaglebone

That's good to know. Thank you Neruda and Schnurrp.


----------



## JedIsDead

I found some information that might be useful. These are the catalogs of available watches currently produced by Vostok taken from the official website: vostok-watches.ru

Catalog

Model Numbers

Movements


----------



## flenr

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster. I'm in the market for a 3133 and came across this. Wondering if it's all in good shape? Looks like a late 80s model. I'm worried about the white spots on the dial too... Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

From what I can see it looks good and you have it dated right. The white spots are not that uncommon and do detract from the value a bit but will probably not worsen over the remainder of the life of the watch if you take care of it.


----------



## kev80e

flenr said:


> Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster. I'm in the market for a 3133 and came across this. Wondering if it's all in good shape? Looks like a late 80s model. I'm worried about the white spots on the dial too... Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 11892250
> 
> 
> View attachment 11892258


.
Looks good. The dots on the dial seem to me to match the wear on the case. A pristine dial in a worn case , or visa versa would worry me more.


----------



## flenr

Thanks @schnurrp & @kev80e! Proud owner now of a 3133


----------



## mariomart

Not my area on knowledge but I like it.


----------



## schnurrp

mariomart said:


> Not my area on knowledge but I like it.
> 
> View attachment 11908586
> 
> 
> View attachment 11908602


 I'm pretty sure it's an authentic "stolichnie" except for the crown, perhaps.

Similar?

https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipPJ8USXGLI_CnAl6AQ1C2LohtH7vor3sz5OMW_D


----------



## Sandro8086

Any concerns about this guy here?


















edit: What about this?


----------



## dutchassasin

Sandro the vostok is no good. Amphibia hands and dial inside a dressier case. 
With that case it should look like something as on the link. From Michele's website. 
http://russianwatches.altervista.org/P1030709.JPG

As for the raketa i cant help you with that, just wait until another f10er passes by.


----------



## Sandro8086

dutchassasin said:


> Sandro the vostok is no good. Amphibia hands and dial inside a dressier case.
> With that case it should look like something as on the link. From Michele's website.
> http://russianwatches.altervista.org/P1030709.JPG
> 
> As for the raketa i cant help you with that, just wait until another f10er passes by.


Thank you, I was suspicious about that Vostok but wanted to ask anyway.


----------



## mroatman

Sandro8086 said:


> Any concerns about this guy here?
> 
> edit: What about this?


Dutch is right -- the Vostok is franken and probably began life looking more like this:









The Raketa looks 100% genuine to me.


----------



## AGAPITO

I wanted to ask you about a Vostok watch that, except for my mistake, seems 100% authentic (although I could not see it in a catalog). It is a watch that should have been manufactured approximately in 1980 and that has as particularity the commemorate the Olympic Games in Moscow.

It's also a mass-made watch, I suppose there must be millions of them in the world, but maybe the dial is not the one I've ever had seen. I thought the dial would have a rounded white part, but after having the watch in my hands, I see that the dial has nothing white. It is a gold dial that combines golden color with the hands and minute dial markers. The result is nice.

Fortunately, this watch has received a dignified treatment from its previous owner or its previous owners. It´s almost new. I only see a small wear on the crown that I attribute to the passage of time.

Do you think the watch would be correct? Thank you in advance.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> Do you think the watch would be correct?


I believe it is, yes.

Here is a page from the 1979 catalog, as well as one of my own, for comparison.


----------



## XsiOn

Hi Friends,

Again I am buying Druzhba. This time the one with the flags. DO you think this one worth 80$ It seems ok. But I am not a pro!  Please help.


----------



## mroatman

The crown is not correct and one of the hands has been relumed. Otherwise, it looks like a nice example.

Would you get $80 worth of enjoyment from this watch? If yes, the answer is simple.


----------



## mariomart

Calling on anyone who has any knowledge of the case pictured below, in particular I would like to know what the lug width is. I think it will be 18mm but just after confirmation. Cheers


----------



## kev80e

Been wanting to add one of these for a while. What's your judgment? The second hand looks a little short but it was cheap so no big deal. Thanks in advance for any insight.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> Been wanting to add one of these for a while. What's your judgment? The second hand looks a little short but it was cheap so no big deal. Thanks in advance for any insight.


Looks absolutely original to me. You're right about the second hand, but I think the tip has just come off. No biggie.

Be aware that this is a very small watch, roughly the size of a Pobeda Red 12.

Nice find!


----------



## kev80e

mroatman said:


> Looks absolutely original to me. You're right about the second hand, but I think the tip has just come off. No biggie.
> 
> Be aware that this is a very small watch, roughly the size of a Pobeda Red 12.
> 
> Nice find!
> 
> View attachment 12030618
> 
> 
> View attachment 12030626


Thanks for the confirmation Dashiell. It was your website I used for comparison , yours looks great with the bright blue lume.


----------



## dutchassasin

Anyone ever seen these blued hands? Obviously they do not belong with the dial.


----------



## mroatman

kev80e said:


> yours looks great with the bright blue lume.


Thanks, Kev.

I'm not sure if it's lume or paint. Chistopol seemed to go through an experimental phase with this blue stuff in the early to mid-1960s. You can see similar colors on Kama and Sputnik. It seems the 'blue period' didn't last long, though.


----------



## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> Anyone ever seen these blued hands? Obviously they do not belong with the dial.


Almost Poljot (1, 2), almost Sturmanskie (1, 2, 3), but not quite either. Still, I'm going with 1MWF. I'm guessing some uncommon 3133 variety.

I don't think they're Petrodvorets hands, but I could be wrong.


----------



## schnurrp

Almost certainly Second Moscow going by shape, lume slot size, and clipped corners. Finish? Who knows, Second Moscow had a lot of combinations of colors and finishes.

View attachment Capture.JPG


----------



## dutchassasin

Schnurrp saves the day, they do look very similar. Checked ranfft and indeed hand size is identical between the movements. Thanks all for brainpower used!


----------



## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> Schnurrp saves the day, they do look very similar. Checked ranfft and indeed hand size is identical between the movements. Thanks all for brainpower used!


Tell us if you find out. Now I'm super curious. Schnurrp seems to be onto something, but I still can't find any that are blued....


----------



## schnurrp

View attachment Capture.JPG


----------



## dutchassasin

mroatman said:


> Tell us if you find out. Now I'm super curious. Schnurrp seems to be onto something, but I still can't find any that are blued....


This is the ad i took the picture from: Soviet wrist watch RAKETA code5047 | eBay

Im sorry if accidentally misled you all in thinking i would purchase the parts watch, i was just super curious about its ordnance of the hands. At first glance they looked like SAE ones but then i noticed the blue colour. Im glad that you too thought it was interesting enough to help out with the research.


----------



## randb

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mariomart said:


> Calling on anyone who has any knowledge of the case pictured below, in particular I would like to know what the lug width is. I think it will be 18mm but just after confirmation. Cheers
> 
> View attachment 12004858


Yep 18mm. I had one once it was nice and quite hefty. The bezel is fixed if I remember rightly.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> This is the ad i took the picture from: Soviet wrist watch RAKETA code5047 | eBay
> Im sorry if accidentally misled you all in thinking i would purchase the parts watch, i was just super curious about its ordnance of the hands. At first glance they looked like SAE ones but then i noticed the blue colour. Im glad that you too thought it was interesting enough to help out with the research.


No, I'm with you -- just really curious now.


----------



## mariomart

kev80e said:


> Been wanting to add one of these for a while. What's your judgment? The second hand looks a little short but it was cheap so no big deal. Thanks in advance for any insight.
> View attachment 12026250


Kev if you wanted a replacement second hand I just noticed this listing come up on Etsy for a cheap parts watch with a good second hand

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/521378856


----------



## kev80e

mariomart said:


> Kev if you wanted a replacement second hand I just noticed this listing come up on Etsy for a cheap parts watch with a good second hand
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/521378856


Thanks very much. I will see what it looks like on arrival and decide if I need to do anything.


----------



## JLH0908

Does anyone know if this is a real? Bought off ebay from Russia.


----------



## schnurrp

JLH0908 said:


> Does anyone know if this is a real? Bought off ebay from Russia.


I've never seen that one before but it fits in with the many unusual products which appeared after the fall of the USSR and so can't be rejected out of hand. I would expect, however, the bezel to match the case in finish so the bezel may be a replacement. Unless someone else has one the same or similar it will probably remain unauthenticatable.


----------



## kev80e

What do make of this. The seconds hand looks very orange but to my very UN expert eye it looks good. Thanks for any opinions. Will probably go way beyond my means but man I'm tempted.


----------



## Red Clubbie

I have one exactly the same, except mine doesn't have the red star near the bottom.

Cheers,
Geoff.


----------



## Red Clubbie

I was referring to the Komandirskie above.

Cheers,
Geoff.


----------



## schnurrp

kev80e said:


> What do make of this. The seconds hand looks very orange but to my very UN expert eye it looks good. Thanks for any opinions. Will probably go way beyond my means but man I'm tempted.
> View attachment 12070162
> View attachment 12070170


I think it's legit and with that back the auction is going to take off like a rocket. It will be fun to watch from the sidelines which is where I will be.


----------



## bpmurray

kev80e said:


> What do make of this. The seconds hand looks very orange but to my very UN expert eye it looks good. Thanks for any opinions. Will probably go way beyond my means but man I'm tempted.


Everything about it looks generally correct to me. Case is right. Crown is right. Hands are probably right - the seconds hand IS quite orange-y (mine is a deeper red for sure), but its not off enough that I would call it a definitive replacement. The lume in the hands is a little light in color relative to the lume on the dial, and I'd expect that to be exactly the same. That may have been re-done as some point. Again I checked mine, the lume is much more green inside the hands to match the lume on the dial. It's hard to say for certain if this one has been re-done, or if the lighter colors that show on all the hands is just a trick of the light.

Movement has all the right markings in all the right places, and correctly recessed jewels. Dial shows the right patina for the age, lume is faded to the right color. The red star and 12-index are some of the most vibrant I've seen, but I don't think they've been repainted - you can see the cracking in the red paint of the star, exactly as it should be. Great bold lines for the text, 1 MChZ logo and bomber logo.

I'm sure some more experienced members will comment, but it looks like a real gem!


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I think it's legit and with that back the auction is going to take off like a rocket. It will be fun to watch from the sidelines which is where I will be.


Too bad the lume of the hands does not match the numbers, though.


----------



## bpmurray

schnurrp said:


> Too bad the lume of the hands does not match the numbers, though.


All of the hands are showing lighter in color than they should be, no? The lume is too light, and the seconds hand is too light. I don't want to come to any conclusion one way or the other, but maybe there was something with the way he took the photos that brightened the foreground too much?


----------



## Arizone

schnurrp said:


> Too bad the lume of the hands does not match the numbers, though.


That usually seems to be the case, interestingly enough.

Here's my own after a service.












kev80e said:


> What do make of this. The seconds hand looks very orange but to my very UN expert eye it looks good. Thanks for any opinions. Will probably go way beyond my means but man I'm tempted.


The seconds hand does look off. They typically only darken with age and/or flake off. It must have been repainted. (Mine has been.)


----------



## kev80e

It's certainly in good condition ,which is why I had to ask. The lume doesn't seem to match exactly on a few I looked at . In fact apart from the seconds hand I couldn't fault it. 
As Schnurrp said, it's going to be an interesting auction to watch , though it will almost certainly go beyond my means.


----------



## Emancipator12

Any thoughts on originality of this piece??


----------



## slls

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



schnurrp said:


> Too bad the lume of the hands does not match the numbers, though.


Something puzzels me. I always have thought that this Shturmanskie was some kind of a graduate gift for new Soviet pilots. I can imagine that Czechoslovakian pilot were trained in the USSR as well, but I never have heard that Shturmanskie watches were delivered to the Czechoslovakia airforce like e.g. Podea watches (with a special logo btw). So where does this back case come from???


----------



## fla

All is ok apart from the case: I almost confident that it's a Vostok's case. As far as i know such cases were used as spares in the past, i.e. service centers in USSR got them for replacing of any brands' damaged cases, if they are fine with the sizing.


----------



## fla

Emancipator12 said:


> Any thoughts on originality of this piece??
> 
> View attachment 12086650
> 
> 
> View attachment 12086658
> 
> 
> View attachment 12086666


All is ok apart from the case: I almost confident that it's a Vostok's case. As far as i know such cases were used as spares in the past, i.e. service centers in USSR got them for replacing of any brands' damaged cases, if they are fine with the sizing.​



*​*


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



slls said:


> Something puzzels me. I always have thought that this Shturmanskie was some kind of a graduate gift for new Soviet pilots. I can imagine that Czechoslovakian pilot were trained in the USSR as well, but I never have heard that Shturmanskie watches were delivered to the Czechoslovakia airforce like e.g. Podea watches (with a special logo btw). So where does this back case come from???


A good observation here. I'd be interested to know as well.

I've seen this case-back on Czechoslovakian military-issued Pobedas, but never a Sturmanskie...


----------



## dutchassasin

Well if we go to https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/spotting-original-15-jewel-sturmanskie-tammo-23013.html and check the date and serial. 45901 and 1-53 
Compared to the one for sale: 45731 and 1-53, we can see that the serial numbers are very close.
However there is another Czech sturmanskie online on MWR that dates 2-53. Too bad i cant find any more examples, the sample size is too small to proof anything with 100% certainty.


----------



## XsiOn

Hi,

I am watching this "sniper" Vostok Amphibia. I am not sure if dial is original. It might be just re-lumed?

The seller told me that this "red snipers" should be rare. Is that correct? I like it but at this moment I want a rea think not only nice watch. BTW... There are no pictures of the mechanizem so I am not sure if anti magnetic cover is inside.... But I guess I can ask for more pics 

Peter


----------



## mariomart

XsiOn said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am watching this "sniper" Vostok Amphibia. I am not sure if dial is original. It might be just re-lumed?
> 
> The seller told me that this "red snipers" should be rare. Is that correct? I like it but at this moment I want a rea think not only nice watch. BTW... There are no pictures of the mechanizem so I am not sure if anti magnetic cover is inside.... But I guess I can ask for more pics
> 
> Peter


As far as I'm concerned, ALL vintage Soviet era sniper dials should have originally looked like this with the Orange highlights (some refer to it as being Red however I believe it has always been Orange). The Orange normally fades to a Yellow color due to age and exposure to light. The 320 case is correct and I believe the black bezel is also correct, however they were also sold with bezel variations from the factory. The case-back might not be original as the dial is in English other than that it all looks good to me.

Here is mine which is in Mint (NOS) condition.


----------



## dutchassasin

I disagree, there are two versions: Yellow and Orange. And yes the orange one is scarcer than the yellow.
Just like you have with other dials, for example the super rare compressor.


----------



## mariomart

dutchassasin said:


> I disagree, there are two versions: Yellow and Orange. And yes the orange one is scarcer than the yellow.
> Just like you have with other dials, for example the super rare compressor.


I would love to see a genuine Yellow variation but all the catalog photo's I've seen have only shown the Orange variation, so I respectfully agree to disagree  lol


----------



## Neruda

Xsi0n - one additional point is that the dial is lettered in English and the caseback in Cyrillic. It may have left the factory this way (perhaps they ran out of the correct back, for example) but it seems technically incorrect and may indicate other franken problems.


----------



## mariomart

Here are 3 of mine. In my opinion two have yellowed and one is the original Orange. In all likelihood I'm probably wrong ;-) lol


----------



## Straight_time

Orange color can be obtained in 2 ways: subtracting red and yellow, or adding red and green.

In this and many other dials the base color for digits and/or indexes is green, so it's easy to assume that at Vostok they used the latter technique to highlight some details -such as the triangle shaped 12-hour mark.

Knowing how easily that g'damned red pigment of theirs fades away with time and/or light roll, the reason why orange slowly turns into shades of yellow to finally end up in basic green is well explained. ;-)


----------



## XsiOn

Thanks for help to everyone! I have to ask for more pictures. I didn't notice the Cyrillic back..... and like you sad.... it might be franken.


----------



## Rudakovski

Not sure if there are any real Zakaz Mo CCCP 3133 Buran watches but what do you all thing about this one?


----------



## mroatman

Rudakovski said:


> Not sure if there are any real Zakaz Mo CCCP 3133 Buran watches but what do you all thing about this one?


The dial looks laser-printed to me...


----------



## schnurrp

mariomart said:


> As far as I'm concerned, ALL vintage Soviet era sniper dials should have originally looked like this with the Orange highlights (some refer to it as being Red however I believe it has always been Orange). The Orange normally fades to a Yellow color due to age and exposure to light. The 320 case is correct and I believe the black bezel is also correct, however they were also sold with bezel variations from the factory. The case-back might not be original as the dial is in English other than that it all looks good to me.
> 
> Here is mine which is in Mint (NOS) condition.
> 
> View attachment 12096354
> 
> 
> View attachment 12096370


Nice one, comrade! What is the date on the paperwork?

I used to share your opinion as to the color differences, comrade, but a recognized authority (arguably), amil, believes otherwise. There is no catalog evidence to support the original all white printing that I know of.

My current 320:


----------



## mariomart

schnurrp said:


> Nice one, comrade! What is the date on the paperwork?
> 
> I used to share your opinion as to the color differences, comrade, but a recognized authority (arguably), amil, believes otherwise. There is no catalog evidence to support the original all white printing that I know of.


I am happy to change my belief but not without proof, if such a variation does exist then paperwork must also exist. My paperwork shows the model/dial code as 320199 and the serial number, 001004, on both the watch and passport match. So if a genuine passport exists that shows a Yellow sniper dial with a dial code NOT as "199", with matching serial numbers, then I would be happy to change my belief.

Lovely 320 you have there 

Here is my passport.


----------



## desmondjenson

I don't think I have much to add to this conversation as I view Comrade Schnurrp as an expert on all things Vostok and I agree with his assessment. I also have an Amphibia sniper dial with only the yellow-green printing on the dial.









Before I acquired this one, I hadn't actually seen a picture of one with orange paint (which I rather like) and now I seem to be seeing lots of them. I'm of the same mind as Schnurrp and others that this is a case of the orange paint fading and I believe that for a couple of reasons. First, there are dozens of other dials with well-known fading over time and the fading is often a drastic change in color; bright orange to pale green doesn't seem out of the question to me. So, it seems that this is a perfectly plausible outcome. Furthermore, the small handful of dials I've seen that still have any orange left on them are all in pristine condition, leading me to believe that they have either been packed away somewhere or not worn often enough to have faded like some others.









This is my second piece of evidence. Hopefully you can see as clearly as I can from this picture that the color of the triangle and the mark at twelve o'clock appear different. The difference is more obvious in person but my best description is that the triangle is just slightly more vivid or it's just a touch brighter. The triangle is the only marking on the dial that appears this way and if this was orange originally, it's the only spot where you'd really be able to see this difference as the "cross-hairs" were the only other marks that were orange and they are simply too thin to see the difference.

So, the totality of the evidence leads me to believe that this watch originally had an orange triangle and cross-hairs that faded to green. If that is the case with this watch, it seems highly likely that that is the case with at least some of the other models as well.

I will cast one bit of doubt on this theory. The catalog entry for this watch is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a3284vuh4qbdzh7 on page 27. You'll notice that the hands are described as "flat nickel plated" and it doesn't describe a red second hand. If you scroll up to the previous catalog entry it describes "flat nickel plated hands" and also a "red second hand." I'm relying on the text because the pictures in the catalog are very dark making it difficult to discern the color of the second hand and the text of the catalog indicates that the sniper dial had a nickel plated second hand. I don't know that I've ever seen the sniper dial without a red second hand. Mine and all of the other pictures show here have a red second hand. To me, this means that we can't always entirely rely on the catalogs. It seems possible and perhaps likely that this watch was originally intended to have a nickel plated second hand at the time the catalogs were printed but perhaps the stock ran out or incorrect specifications were given to the factory or someone simply changed their mind and the result is that they all came out with a red second hand.

Now, that doesn't convince me that the dial also underwent a design change and some were produced with an orange triangle while others had a green one but that's just my opinion. I think there's enough here that we probably can't come to a firm conclusion but I personally believe that all of the dials were orange and some have faded to green.


----------



## mroatman

desmondjenson said:


> I think that we probably can't come to a firm conclusion, but I personally believe that...


This one line pretty much sums up the totality of Soviet watch collecting.

In my opinion.


----------



## CyanideAndHappiness

Is this a legit 1MCHZ 17j Gagarin?




























I saw that thread differentiating the 15j and the 17j. It said they 17j does not have a date stamp. This one seems to have it. It also looks like the dial has been "restored". I can't link the ebay link as my post count is too low.


----------



## mroatman

CyanideAndHappiness said:


> It also looks like the dial has been "restored".


Good eye -- this is not an original dial.

As for the date-stamp on the movement, I consider that a rumor based on insufficient evidence. At least, I'm still waiting on some sort of physical proof as to why slls wrote that in his otherwise-excellent guide.

But it doesn't really matter for this watch since the dial is bogus and both the minute and second hand are too short. Better to pass on this one.

Welcome to the forums, and keep asking excellent questions!


----------



## kev80e

kev80e said:


> Been wanting to add one of these for a while. What's your judgment? The second hand looks a little short but it was cheap so no big deal. Thanks in advance for any insight.
> View attachment 12026250
> View attachment 12026266


This showed up and I love it. After cleaning I found some numbers scratched into the back . As far as I can see it's:
000033
?? 17 09
Service marks I assume but no idea what the top line means.


----------



## Victorv

Hi guys, how are you?

Someone can help me with this Big Zero?










Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## T4VI

Victorv said:


> Hi guys, how are you?
> 
> Someone can help me with this Big Zero?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


Hello fellow!

That Big Zero looks good for me, not 100% sure about the crystal because the pictures are not showing it at right angle. But looks legit, hands, dial, crown and case looks 100% ok.


----------



## AGAPITO

I have the opportunity to purchase this common 2409A Vostok watch.

I know it is a mass-production watch in Soviet times, but in this case the price would not be bad, since it would be 25 dollars. I have taken a look and it all the elements (hands, minute-markers etc) seem correct. Generally speaking, I think it's well preserved, and it seems to have a size more suited to current uses.

I want to ask you two questions:

1) if the watch seems authentic to you. And 
2) If you believe your purchase is right for that price.

Thanks in advance.

















































I have not been able to obtain images of the inner movement, but it would be similar to the one of this photo:


----------



## mariomart

AGAPITO said:


> I have the opportunity to purchase this common 2409A Vostok watch.
> 
> I know it is a mass-production watch in Soviet times, but in this case the price would not be bad, since it would be 25 dollars. I have taken a look and it all the elements (hands, minute-markers etc) seem correct. Generally speaking, I think it's well preserved, and it seems to have a size more suited to current uses.
> 
> I want to ask you two questions:
> 
> 1) if the watch seems authentic to you. And
> 2) If you believe your purchase is right for that price.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> I have not been able to obtain images of the inner movement, but it would be similar to the one of this photo:


It appears mostly correct, however it looks like the second hand has been replaced if you compare it to the photo in the 1976 Vostok catalog. The second hand should be uniformly tapered from tip to tail.

Also the crown looks like it's been replaced, the original looks quite square.

As for the price, it's whatever you are prepared to pay. Perhaps discuss the second hand and crown with the seller and haggle a better price.


----------



## AGAPITO

mariomart said:


> It appears mostly correct, however it looks like the second hand has been replaced if you compare it to the photo in the 1976 Vostok catalog. The second hand should be uniformly tapered from tip to tail.
> 
> Also the crown looks like it's been replaced, the original looks quite square.
> 
> As for the price, it's whatever you are prepared to pay. Perhaps discuss the second hand and crown with the seller and haggle a better price.
> 
> View attachment 12164778


Thanks comrade. Although it is true what you say, and I understand what you are saying, I do not know to what extent we can affirm or dismiss this question with 100% certainty.

If any comrade has a watch similar to this 2409A Vostok watch, I would appreciate some image to leave doubts.

For now, I would say that the type of second hand that appears in this 2409A Vostok watch, also appears in other Soviet catalogs of the same time, and both in the same vostok case as in other cases. I have also seen later examples ...

























That is, it looks like a second hand made in Chistopol. There is also a congruence between the second hand and the minute markers. And if this is true, there would be a second question: what does it mean to replace one 2409A Vostok second hand with another 2409A Vostok second hand, which is also from the same time?

As for the crown, the same thing happens. Look, this is my 2427 and and a 2428 Vostok watch.

































In any case, what would you do? The watch is sold as original and I have no possibility to negotiate a better price. I also do not know if a price of 25 dollars is very expensive. The watch looks well preserved. Would not you buy the watch? Thank you in advance.


----------



## mariomart

AGAPITO said:


> Thanks comrade. Although it is true what you say, and I understand what you are saying, I do not know to what extent we can affirm or dismiss this question with 100% certainty.
> 
> If any comrade has a watch similar to this 2409A Vostok watch, I would appreciate some image to leave doubts.
> 
> For now, I would say that the type of second hand that appears in this 2409A Vostok watch, also appears in other Soviet catalogs of the same time, and both in the same vostok case as in other cases. I have also seen later examples ...
> 
> That is, it looks like a second hand made in Chistopol. There is also a congruence between the second hand and the minute markers. And if this is true, there would be a second question: what does it mean to replace one 2409A Vostok second hand with another 2409A Vostok second hand, which is also from the same time?
> 
> As for the crown, the same thing happens. Look, this is my 2427 and and a 2428 Vostok watch.
> 
> In any case, what would you do? The watch is sold as original and I have no possibility to negotiate a better price. I also do not know if a price of 25 dollars is very expensive. The watch looks well preserved. Would not you buy the watch? Thank you in advance.


I just had a look at the 1977 Vostok catalog and the same watch is again shown, also still with the unique tapered second hand and square crown. In this case I believe the factory decided on this styling choice and it appears it's been carried over for at least several years. So with that visual evidence my uneducated guess would be that it was only ever sold as per the catalog photo's. But Russian horology being what it is there is never any absolutely true answer.

Again, as for the price I can't answer as it's not really a piece that piques my interest, however $25 is not a lot and if it's a piece that you truly desire then the price would seem fair. Smile when you wear it and enjoy.


----------



## Victorv

T4VI said:


> Hello fellow!
> 
> That Big Zero looks good for me, not 100% sure about the crystal because the pictures are not showing it at right angle. But looks legit, hands, dial, crown and case looks 100% ok.


Many many thanks my friend. i think the same as you.

Any other opinion?

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## AGAPITO

Victorv said:


> Many many thanks my friend. i think the same as you.
> 
> Any other opinion?
> 
> Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk


Hello Victor. It is hard to come to a conclusion in this case because I can only say something by referring to these two images.

It's one of the most fake Soviet watches.

I think the case is from a Raketa big zero (it does not look like a Raketa zero) and the movement is a 2609-SU from the 80's. The case is well preserved, which is a plus in favor of this watch. The dial indicates that it is manufactured in the Soviet Union, which is also correct.

My possible doubts: the crown looks like a Raketa big zero´crown. The second picture makes it look like a replacement crown, but it may be a simple optical effect ... The crystal could be original, must have a dome shape and create some distortion at the edge ... here (http: // forums. Watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-big-zero-915411-2.html) you could compare original glass and replaced glass ...

Anyway, I try to find flaws, but although I'm not 100% sure, I do not finish finding them. It may be a correct watch.


----------



## mroatman

mariomart said:


> I just had a look at the 1977 Vostok catalog and the same watch is again shown





AGAPITO said:


> Although it is true what you say, and I understand what you are saying, I do not know to what extent we can affirm or dismiss this question with 100% certainty.


Careful, guys. The watches in the catalogs are not the same as the one shown by AGIPITO. Notice the decoration just outside the crystal...









AGIPITO, I think your watch is correct as shown. For $25, I would buy it.


----------



## mroatman

dutchassasin said:


> Well if we go to https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/spotting-original-15-jewel-sturmanskie-tammo-23013.html and check the date and serial. 45901 and 1-53
> Compared to the one for sale: 45731 and 1-53, we can see that the serial numbers are very close.
> However there is another Czech sturmanskie online on MWR that dates 2-53. Too bad i cant find any more examples, the sample size is too small to proof anything with 100% certainty.





slls said:


> Something puzzels me. I always have thought that this Shturmanskie was some kind of a graduate gift for new Soviet pilots. I can imagine that Czechoslovakian pilot were trained in the USSR as well, but I never have heard that Shturmanskie watches were delivered to the Czechoslovakia airforce like e.g. Podea watches (with a special logo btw). So where does this back case come from???





Arizone said:


> That usually seems to be the case, interestingly enough.
> The seconds hand does look off. They typically only darken with age and/or flake off. It must have been repainted. (Mine has been.)





kev80e said:


> What do make of this. The seconds hand looks very orange but to my very UN expert eye it looks good. Thanks for any opinions. Will probably go way beyond my means but man I'm tempted.





schnurrp said:


> I think it's legit and with that back the auction is going to take off like a rocket. It will be fun to watch from the sidelines which is where I will be.





bpmurray said:


> Everything about it looks generally correct to me.


A new record?









STURMANSKIE WATCH 1953 - Firs Generation - Штурманские ЧАСЫ - 15 jewels - 04.2 | eBay


----------



## mariomart

mroatman said:


> Careful, guys. The watches in the catalogs are not the same as the one shown by AGIPITO. Notice the decoration just outside the crystal...
> 
> AGIPITO, I think your watch is correct as shown. For $25, I would buy it.


Well spotted Dash, I should wear my glasses more often for now my eyes are becoming like Mr Blurrycam


----------



## AGAPITO

mroatman said:


> Careful, guys. The watches in the catalogs are not the same as the one shown by AGIPITO. Notice the decoration just outside the crystal...
> 
> View attachment 12173586
> 
> 
> AGIPITO, I think your watch is correct as shown. For $25, I would buy it.


Thanks comrade. I agree, I think 25 dollars is a good price.

Since it is difficult to know if a Soviet watch is 100% authentic, what I normally do is:

1) Examine the watch itself (a Soviet watch is congruent, all its elements make up an original and elegant set or watch). For example, hands must be congruent with minute markers. If a watch does not meet this rule, I'm not interested anymore.

2) Browse catalog, but not as a single data (I even think an original watch does not always match 100% with the catalog).

3) Ask expert opinions (I attach great importance to all your criteria on any watch).

4) Compare the concrete model of watch with other identical watches, even seeing similar watches from other collectors (if another identical watches from other collectors are identical to my watch, or to which I am interested, it is logical to think that the watch I compare can be authentic) .

In this case, I have seen another 2409A watches from different collectors, and all 2409 watches I have located have the second hand of this watch. Curiously, no watch matches the catalog image.

P.S. That watch in the catalog can appear any time, so everything I say means nothing. It is always very difficult to find a 100% universal consensus on authenticity.


----------



## AGAPITO

mariomart said:


> Well spotted Dash, I should wear my glasses more often for now my eyes are becoming like Mr Blurrycam


I think the important thing is to give an opinion. I do not care if the watch is authentic or not, I prefer a sincere opinion based on catalogs rather than an opinion that only seeks to please me.

It is what I thank you and Mroatman or any other comrade, because when we talk about Soviet watchmaking, giving an opinion is difficult, is an act of bravery. Thank you.


----------



## bpmurray

mroatman said:


> A new record?
> 
> STURMANSKIE WATCH 1953 - Firs Generation - Ð¨Ñ‚ÑƒÑ€Ð¼Ð°Ð½Ñ�ÐºÐ¸Ðµ Ð§Ð�Ð¡Ð« - 15 jewels - 04.2 | eBay


At least until this one sells:

STURMANSKIE GAGARIN Ð¨Ð¢Ð£Ð ÐœÐ�Ð�Ð¡ÐšÐ˜Ð• 15 JEWELS ORIGINAL | eBay


----------



## Victorv

AGAPITO said:


> Hello Victor. It is hard to come to a conclusion in this case because I can only say something by referring to these two images.
> 
> It's one of the most fake Soviet watches.
> 
> I think the case is from a Raketa big zero (it does not look like a Raketa zero) and the movement is a 2609-SU from the 80's. The case is well preserved, which is a plus in favor of this watch. The dial indicates that it is manufactured in the Soviet Union, which is also correct.
> 
> My possible doubts: the crown looks like a Raketa big zero´crown. The second picture makes it look like a replacement crown, but it may be a simple optical effect ... The crystal could be original, must have a dome shape and create some distortion at the edge ... here (http: // forums. Watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-big-zero-915411-2.html) you could compare original glass and replaced glass ...
> 
> Anyway, I try to find flaws, but although I'm not 100% sure, I do not finish finding them. It may be a correct watch.


Hello Agapito, how are you?

First of all, my apologizes for being late, i was too busy yesterday.

Many many thanks for your help, really. I'm going to ask the seller if he can send me more photos. And abusing of your knowledge, could you tell me the differences between a Raketa Zero and a Raketa Big Zero?

Many thanks, my friend. And we were talking long time ago in the spanish forum HdR.

Regards!!


----------



## Victorv

Error: Duplied


----------



## Victorv

AGAPITO said:


> I have the opportunity to purchase this common 2409A Vostok watch.
> 
> I know it is a mass-production watch in Soviet times, but in this case the price would not be bad, since it would be 25 dollars. I have taken a look and it all the elements (hands, minute-markers etc) seem correct. Generally speaking, I think it's well preserved, and it seems to have a size more suited to current uses.
> 
> I want to ask you two questions:
> 
> 1) if the watch seems authentic to you. And
> 2) If you believe your purchase is right for that price.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> View attachment 12164714
> 
> 
> View attachment 12164722
> 
> 
> View attachment 12164730
> 
> 
> View attachment 12164738
> 
> 
> View attachment 12164746
> 
> 
> View attachment 12164754
> 
> 
> I have not been able to obtain images of the inner movement, but it would be similar to the one of this photo:
> 
> View attachment 12164762


Hi Agapito, i don't know if it's original, i think it's a rare model, i've never see another like this. 

The only bad image that i could find is this, it's the same watch but in another case, and the word Bocktok on the dial .

http://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g...QO9/s-l225.jpg

But for 25$ i think it's a very cool dress watch, if i were you, i will go for it.

Regards!!


----------



## AGAPITO

Victorv said:


> Hello Agapito, how are you?
> 
> First of all, my apologizes for being late, i was too busy yesterday.
> 
> Many many thanks for your help, really. I'm going to ask the seller if he can send me more photos. And abusing of your knowledge, could you tell me the differences between a Raketa Zero and a Raketa Big Zero?
> 
> Many thanks, my friend. And we were talking long time ago in the spanish forum HdR.
> 
> Regards!!


Hi. I am just like you, I have been very busy.

I think the Raketa Zero is also known as the "Mini Zero", it is a nice, smaller and more rounded watch than the Raketa Big Zero. I have seen some on Ebay, and I even think that some salesman has referred to it as the "Raketa Big zero" in order to get the sale.

I do not know the measurements, but it should be a 35-36 mm watch, not suitable for the current taste. Last year when I visited Russia, I saw one in Izmailovo market, first a Raketa zero and a minute o two minutes later, a raketa big zero. At that time I did not know the Raketa Zero or mini and I was surprised to see that watch, because I thought it was bigger. After a while, I saw the Raketa Big zero, and I had the two watches in my hands. However, in the end I saw that there were several franken watches for sale, and in the end I did not buy any.

I think it's a very risky purchase. I remember my doubts when I bought my Okeah, (in the end the watch was legit), but on other occasions I have come to acquire watches with any fake parts. I even would say that many of us most likely have a watch of this type.

Of course, do not decide to buy that watch just for what I tell you. Other experts can help you, but after reading the latest comments on this forum, I personally might not buy it. The machine inside is a 2609HA, which is good, but possibly the seller will ask you for a big price for that famous dial.

And of course, I would not buy it with only those two images as a reference. I'm telling you because if you buy a fake one, it is possible that when you have it, that fact is the only thing you see on the watch.

I think if the seller does not offer you much better pictures, you should not buy it, it is my humble advice. And the images must be good images. Various fans who have all my respect, are expressing multiple problems these days in this forum regarding the authenticity of this watch.

Imagine the situation: it is sad to discover that your watch that you had for years, is not really authentic. Good luck.


----------



## AGAPITO

Victorv said:


> Hi Agapito, i don't know if it's original, i think it's a rare model, i've never see another like this.
> 
> The only bad image that i could find is this, it's the same watch but in another case, and the word Bocktok on the dial .
> 
> http://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g...QO9/s-l225.jpg
> 
> But for 25$ i think it's a very cool dress watch, if i were you, i will go for it.
> 
> Regards!!


Thank you very much.

Well, I have been looking at several collections, and I have not found that especial second hand from the catalogs, which is a second hand that reminds the Okeah watch´s second hand. It is as if had not been made or no longer existed. All the second hands made at that time I have seen are very similar to each other (in the Olympic 2409 Vostok, in another 2409s, etc, etc).

I don´t worry, only the watch works fine. I value Mroatman's opinion very much, so I'm going to consider it as a authentic watch or a basically authentic watch. Besides it is not an expensive watch.


----------



## mroatman

AGAPITO said:


> I think the important thing is to give an opinion. I do not care if the watch is authentic or not, I prefer a sincere opinion based on catalogs rather than an opinion that only seeks to please me.
> It is what I thank you and Mroatman or any other comrade, because when we talk about Soviet watchmaking, giving an opinion is difficult, is an act of bravery. Thank you.


You are most welcome, comrade.

And I am sorry for misspelling your name (*AGAPITO) before!


----------



## Arizone

Arizone said:


> Wait a minute...these hands look familiar...


Update, the hands are in safe hands now.


----------



## Tedfs3

Arizone said:


> Update, the hands are in safe hands now.


What watch is that on the right, if I may ask ?


----------



## Arizone

Tedfs3 said:


> What watch is that on the right, if I may ask ?


Sturmanskie 15 jewels! Watch out for fakes, by the way.


----------



## mroatman

Arizone said:


> Update, the hands are in safe hands now.


Any plans, or just for spares?


----------



## Arizone

mroatman said:


> Any plans, or just for spares?


No plans here.


----------



## CierzoZgz

AGAPITO said:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> Well, I have been looking at several collections, and I have not found that especial second hand from the catalogs, which is a second hand that reminds the Okeah watch´s second hand. It is as if had not been made or no longer existed. All the second hands made at that time I have seen are very similar to each other (in the Olympic 2409 Vostok, in another 2409s, etc, etc).
> 
> I don´t worry, only the watch works fine. I value Mroatman's opinion very much, so I'm going to consider it as a authentic watch or a basically authentic watch. Besides it is not an expensive watch.


Hi Agapito, I have an export version of the watch that you ask for, I guess that its picture could help you. The crown was very used but its form seems more conic in origin, like yours.
Sorry the bad quality...


----------



## Tedfs3

Arizone said:


> Sturmanskie 15 jewels! Watch out for fakes, by the way.


Where would be a reputable place to look for that one ? I really like.


----------



## bpmurray

Tedfs3 said:


> Where would be a reputable place to look for that one ? I really like.


Great taste! You've come across one of the most desired, and certainly most collectible Soviet watches. Ebay or Etsy are probably your safe bets, unless you are proficient in Russian. Arizone has it right - the VAST majority of purportedly original Sturmanskie's on the market are fake/franken. There are also some modern "homage" variants - I have no idea how to determine if these are real or not.

A brief warning - if you really want a fully original example, it may take some time to find the right combination of condition/price, and good condition examples don't usually stay available for long. There are usually a few examples available at any given time - I see one legitimate one on ebay presently, in spectacular condition but at an absolutely exorbitant price.

I highly highly recommend reading these guides/threads before you pull the trigger on one. There is some serious nerding out here, which should teach you nearly everything you need to know about this watch.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/ever...anskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/spotting-original-15-jewel-sturmanskie-tammo-23013.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/shturmanskie-gagarin-3988458.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/15-jewel-sturmanskie-gagarin-q3-49-a-4009634.html

If you see one you are interested in, start a new thread or post some photos in this one, and you'll get some expert opinions on legitimacy. I highly recommend doing so before forking over a few hundred dollars.

Good luck!


----------



## Tedfs3

Thank you so much !



bpmurray said:


> Great taste! You've come across one of the most desired, and certainly most collectible Soviet watches. Ebay or Etsy are probably your safe bets, unless you are proficient in Russian. Arizone has it right - the VAST majority of purportedly original Sturmanskie's on the market are fake/franken. There are also some modern "homage" variants - I have no idea how to determine if these are real or not.
> 
> A brief warning - if you really want a fully original example, it may take some time to find the right combination of condition/price, and good condition examples don't usually stay available for long. There are usually a few examples available at any given time - I see one legitimate one on ebay presently, in spectacular condition but at an absolutely exorbitant price.
> 
> I highly highly recommend reading these guides/threads before you pull the trigger on one. There is some serious nerding out here, which should teach you nearly everything you need to know about this watch.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/ever...anskie-15-jewel-17-jewel-version-1063349.html
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/spotting-original-15-jewel-sturmanskie-tammo-23013.html
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/shturmanskie-gagarin-3988458.html
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/15-jewel-sturmanskie-gagarin-q3-49-a-4009634.html
> 
> If you see one you are interested in, start a new thread or post some photos in this one, and you'll get some expert opinions on legitimacy. I highly recommend doing so before forking over a few hundred dollars.
> 
> Good luck!


----------



## karlenko123

*Is this Luch legit?*

Spotted this on ebay. Just way too new to be a vintage.


----------



## schnurrp

The dial is a common reproduction replacement. The rest of the watch may be authentic or made up of authentic Luch parts, can't see the movement. The crown is probably a replacement.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Is this Luch legit?*



karlenko123 said:


> Spotted this on ebay. Just way too new to be a vintage.


Yes, a classic franken. Second hand doesn't belong with the hour/minute hands, which don't belong with the dial, which doesn't belong with the case.

Better keep looking.


----------



## karlenko123

How about these two? Are they legit? Which one should i buy? One is Luch 2209, one is poljot 17j









Sent from my Mi5 using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

karlenko123 said:


> How about these two? Are they legit? Which one should i buy? One is Luch 2209, one is poljot 17j
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Mi5 using Tapatalk


Keep looking.


----------



## Neruda

I'm very curious about this bezel, any thoughts? Caseback is the Russian double-eagle, so not so old. I suspect it is "genuine" in so much as it was made for a unit of the Russian Fire Brigade, but is it "genuine" Vostok? any opinions very welcome, thanks!


----------



## Arizone

Neruda said:


> I'm very curious about this bezel, any thoughts? Caseback is the Russian double-eagle, so not so old. I suspect it is "genuine" in so much as it was made for a unit of the Russian Fire Brigade, but is it "genuine" Vostok? any opinions very welcome, thanks!
> View attachment 12208794


The color of the hands I have never seen before. Not worried about the rest.


----------



## AGAPITO

CierzoZgz said:


> Hi Agapito, I have an export version of the watch that you ask for, I guess that its picture could help you. The crown was very used but its form seems more conic in origin, like yours.
> Sorry the bad quality...


Thank you very much for your help, comrade.

Your watch has the same characteristics as the watch I bought, and is another reason that makes me think of the authenticity of the watch. Thank you very much for showing me your watch.


----------



## Straight_time

Neruda said:


> I'm very curious about this bezel, any thoughts? Caseback is the Russian double-eagle, so not so old. I suspect it is "genuine" in so much as it was made for a unit of the Russian Fire Brigade, but is it "genuine" Vostok? any opinions very welcome, thanks!


Never seen anything like that before, but I think that nobody but the factory itself would have cared to place their official logo at the 60 seconds spot - so if I had to make an educated guess I'd say it's most likely original.


----------



## emcuu

i bought one from stores.ebay.com/leaveukraineinpeace/
do you have experience in Raketa "red 12"
it's look like brand new, no hair line scratches on glass or case)
is this legit?
thanks


----------



## Neruda

emcuu - I suspect that a very least the dial is a replacement. The certificate is dated October 1992 but the dial is marked "made in Russia" - I think if it were authentic it should say CCCP.


----------



## Rimmed762

October 1992 with USSR would be IMHO more suspectible. Vostoks 92-93 might even be without country of manufacture. 

But I cannot certainly state myself as an expert.


----------



## Commodore_Johnny

Straight_time said:


> Never seen anything like that before, but I think that nobody but the factory itself would have cared to place their official logo at the 60 seconds spot - so if I had to make an educated guess I'd say it's most likely original.
> 
> View attachment 12234810


It is indeed original, that's a Vostok Partner case and bezel. They don't make those anymore as far as I know, they died out at the same time as the Vostok Megapolis watches.

Edit: At least I think it is, feel free to correct me :-d


----------



## emcuu

Neruda said:


> emcuu - I suspect that a very least the dial is a replacement. The certificate is dated October 1992 but the dial is marked "made in Russia" - I think if it were authentic it should say CCCP.





Rimmed762 said:


> October 1992 with USSR would be IMHO more suspectible. Vostoks 92-93 might even be without country of manufacture.
> 
> But I cannot certainly state myself as an expert.


 this is my first raketa and i don't have experience

"Сделано в России" after 1990?
"Сделано в CCCP" before 1990?
and number "285" on certificate meaning?


----------



## Rimmed762

Dissolution of the Soviet Union occurred very late 1991. 

But how many dials were printed before? Did everyone knew what was the name of their new homeland?


----------



## Rimmed762

285 is number of controller. Quality control, I guess. KIS is an acronym I am not familiar with.

EDIT: It is a very nice watch. Sometimes we forgot to mention that.


----------



## mroatman

emcuu said:


> i bought one from stores.ebay.com/leaveukraineinpeace/
> do you have experience in Raketa "red 12"
> it's look like brand new, no hair line scratches on glass or case)
> is this legit?
> thanks


Completely authentic, in my opinion, including paperwork.

https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/raketa?lightbox=dataItem-iwmx4qha


----------



## mroatman

bpmurray said:


> At least until this one sells:
> STURMANSKIE GAGARIN Ð¨Ð¢Ð£Ð.ÐœÐ�Ð�Ð¡ÐšÐ˜Ð• 15 JEWELS ORIGINAL | eBay


Jeez. $1200 and the wrong movement... :roll:


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

I have a vostok 2605 that I got a while back. I believe it's legit due to the signs of age around the numerals and sub dial. I checked mroatmans website and everything seems right. Opinions on the case and dial?
(Don't want to remove the nato because I squeezed an 18mm on it and don't want to cause wear)









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Nearco

Hello everyone. I come back to this essential trend to ask you the experts about another watch with a date conflict.










I think this model is one of the first Komandirskies manufactured in Chistopol. As far I know, the Komandirskies began to be produced in 1965, when the factory in Chistopol was awarded with a contract as a supplier of the Soviet Army.










Then, how could it be that in the back appears an inscription with the date of 1964? Is it a Franken with older pieces? The production of the first K's began earlier?.










Another shot with a friend.

Thank you very much for your help: I learn a lot about our beloved relics here.

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


----------



## bpmurray

Nearco said:


> Hello everyone. I come back to this essential trend to ask you the experts about another watch with a date conflict.
> 
> I think this model is one of the first Komandirskies manufactured in Chistopol. As far I know, the Komandirskies began to be produced in 1965, when the factory in Chistopol was awarded with a contract as a supplier of the Soviet Army.
> 
> Then, how could it be that in the back appears an inscription with the date of 1964? Is it a Franken with older pieces? The production of the first K's began earlier?.
> 
> Another shot with a friend.
> 
> Thank you very much for your help: I learn a lot about our beloved relics here.
> 
> Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


Hi Nearco,

You hit a topic close to my heart! You do indeed have what I believe to be a first-generation Komandirskie, and the white dials are particularly hard to come by (on my wish list, but haven't seen one pop up in a long time).

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-generation-komandirskies-4276114.html

Please post your photos to that thread, so we can keep all the info in one place!

Everything about yours looks correct - necktie hands, properly worn crown, and the seconds hand appears to have the tiny arrowhead. The only question is if gold-plated cases were legitimate this early on. There are two examples I have seen in gold, far fewer than in chrome. However, I don't really have any good reason to doubt their authenticity, so... gold is fine.

I have no idea about proper dating for these, I don't believe they appeared in a catalog that would help shed light on it. Yours certainly adds a much-needed data point!

Can you do a favor and pop the back, and post a pic of the movement in that other thread? Also, confirm whether or not it hacks, e.g., the seconds hand stops when you pull out the crown.

Thanks!

P.S. Beautiful Precision as well! That deserves its own thread, post some glamour shots!


----------



## Nearco

Hello bpmurray: thank you for your superfast answer!

I never open my watches: most are divers and I use them at sea, and I need them well sealed. On the other hand, the old Kings of my boxes will never see the sea within 25 meters, but in these it gives me panic to think that I can damage their delicate guts. However, to thank you for your kind words, with more fear than a journalist in the lobby of Trump's Oval Office, I have opened it for you:










It seems correct for me and my low profile of knowledgements. I assume it's a 2234, and the second hand's hack works well.

Thank you for the link: it looks very interesting to learn something about K's and their origins... but still, I have unresolved the enigma of the date...

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



cptwalker said:


> I have a vostok 2605 that I got a while back. I believe it's legit due to the signs of age around the numerals and sub dial. I checked mroatmans website and everything seems right. Opinions on the case and dial?
> (Don't want to remove the nato because I squeezed an 18mm on it and don't want to cause wear)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


What you've shown looks correct. Need a movement shot.


----------



## schnurrp

Nearco said:


> Hello everyone. I come back to this essential trend to ask you the experts about another watch with a date conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this model is one of the first Komandirskies manufactured in Chistopol. As far I know, the Komandirskies began to be produced in 1965, when the factory in Chistopol was awarded with a contract as a supplier of the Soviet Army.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then, how could it be that in the back appears an inscription with the date of 1964? Is it a Franken with older pieces? The production of the first K's began earlier?.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another shot with a friend.
> 
> Thank you very much for your help: I learn a lot about our beloved relics here.
> 
> Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


With no provenance we have to consider that everything but the hand set and dial could be from a common civil Vostok or newer k. Does it have the older date wheel? Check single digit dates. Also I was under the impression (no proof) that the 2234 came along later.

View attachment 12292738


More than likely it will remain an enigma. Nice looking watch, though. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



cptwalker said:


> I have a vostok 2605 that I got a while back. I believe it's legit due to the signs of age around the numerals and sub dial. I checked mroatmans website and everything seems right. Opinions on the case and dial?





schnurrp said:


> What you've shown looks correct. Need a movement shot.


Agree.


----------



## Nearco

schnurrp said:


> With no provenance we have to consider that everything but the hand set and dial could be from a common civil Vostok or newer k. Does it have the older date wheel? Check single digit dates. Also I was under the impression (no proof) that the 2234 came along later.
> 
> View attachment 12292738
> 
> 
> More than likely it will remain an enigma. Nice looking watch, though. Thanks for sharing.


Thanks for your assistance. Now I can't take a photo of the date window... I'm just starting my two weeks of vacation. I'll check it (and post it) when I get back home.

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


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## kev80e

Spotted this and a couple of things are a bit different. First it has ADMIRAL KUZNETSOV on the dial. An aircraft carrier but I normally see these with komandirskie on the dial. I found a few others so maybe that's correct. 
At first I thought it was a standard type 34 , but the back looks different, kinda raised. Any thoughts?






.


----------



## Neruda

Kev80e - there are several variations of this dial, some with the hours numbered ans some with indices. Some are marked Made in Russia and presumably date from the 1990s or later. Some are labeled Komandirskie, others with the name of the ship. One variation has the Oestwerk logo, an export company based in Switzerland. As far as I can determine, all are genuine and simply reflect minor changes over the ship's long history. I suspect your movement, marked SU, was produced about 1985 - the date at which the Kuznetsov entered service - so perhaps one of the earlier variations.
By the way, this is the aircraft carrier which was recently subject of an exchange between the British and Russian ministers of defence. The former suggesting the Kuznetsov was an aging pile of junk, while the latter called a newly launched British carrier a convenient target!


----------



## kev80e

Thanks Neruda. I agree about the dial having done a bit more searching. I thought the case could be a vostok partner one but can't find one the same yet.


----------



## bxi47

Is the red star is re-painted? And it appears to have the case back of a Sportivnie, does it not?


----------



## mroatman

bxi47 said:


> Is the red star is re-painted? And it appears to have the case back of a Sportivnie, does it not?


Impossible to know if the star has been repainted. Probably. And a Sportivnie caseback is correct for this model.


----------



## DavidUK

I haven't seen markers or hands like this on a 2209 slim before so I'm assuming it's incorrect. I also thought that Poljot stopped making these in the 1970s and the movement on this one has a SU stamp which I think I've read was inscribed on movements towards the end of the Soviet Union. Any thoughts please?


----------



## kev80e

DavidUK said:


> View attachment 12330797
> I haven't seen markers or hands like this on a 2209 slim before so I'm assuming it's incorrect. I also thought that Poljot stopped making these in the 1970s and the movement on this one has a SU stamp which I think I've read was inscribed on movements towards the end of the Soviet Union. Any thoughts please?


I can't say if its correct or not but if it is I want one.


----------



## dutchassasin

Im guessing 50 years anniversary of the vostok factory. What are your thoughts?


----------



## mroatman

DavidUK said:


> I haven't seen markers or hands like this on a 2209 slim before so I'm assuming it's incorrect. I also thought that Poljot stopped making these in the 1970s and the movement on this one has a SU stamp which I think I've read was inscribed on movements towards the end of the Soviet Union. Any thoughts please?


Correct on all fronts. Very franken. Based off this original:


----------



## mr_nobody

I see a couple sellers on ebay selling these NOS Raketa Big Zeros. They seem to have different hands than usual but I don't know how that model changed over time. Are they legit? Thanks in advance!


----------



## mr_nobody

[duplicate post]


----------



## mroatman

mr_nobody said:


> I see a couple sellers on ebay selling these NOS Raketa Big Zeros. They seem to have different hands than usual but I don't know how that model changed over time. Are they legit? Thanks in advance!


No, not legit. Only one type of hands are acceptable for this model, in my opinion. Skeleton hands + Big Zero = Franken.


----------



## mr_nobody

mroatman said:


> No, not legit. Only one type of hands are acceptable for this model, in my opinion. Skeleton hands + Big Zero = Franken.


That's what I figured, thanks for confirming!


----------



## mroatman

mr_nobody said:


> That's what I figured, thanks for confirming!


And good on you for checking first 👍


----------



## Dave_Hedgehog

mr_nobody said:


> I see a couple sellers on ebay selling these NOS Raketa Big Zeros. They seem to have different hands than usual but I don't know how that model changed over time. Are they legit? Thanks in advance!


While I agree the hands are not legit (and, frankly, have my doubts about the dial too) I have to say the white hands do look good on this watch. The silver colour hands on a genuine black Big Zero always looked odd to me.

That's why I got a white one instead, proper contrast with black hands.


----------



## Uros TSI

Is this one straight? How about the crown and stem on this model? Are they obtainable NOS or new?









Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## schnurrp

Uros TSI said:


> Is this one straight? How about the crown and stem on this model? Are they obtainable NOS or new?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


I've gotten conservative in my choices over the years and if I can't find it in a catalog I usually move on. I associate that dial and hand set in gold with the military issue 300m model although I've seen it in other collections as a 200m but not in any catalogs. For me, all type 350 amphibians should have the round crown.


----------



## will1970

Ok I am preparing to get my fingers rapped. But when all is said and done I do like the finished look. But this is a huge newbie mistake.

Here goes.

Please see following pictures and correct me if I am wrong as i have, as a newbie, been trying to figure this out for the past 2 days knowing that some of you could figure it out in a second by one brief look.

Correct me if I am wrong but what I will now have on my hands is a case from the CCCP era likely a 470 in good condition, mated with a 2416b manual wind mechanism (not sure about that) then mated with a modern day Russian scuba dude face with date.

The case back is from CCCP era and seems legit to the case itself.

Correct me if I am wrong again however I believe that movement never was seen in that case and of course a date face was never seen in this case as well.

So correct me if I am wrong again but I have a franken of frankens .....

So in order for me to put the pieces back together Would I need to find a 2409 movement and a Scuba Dude face from the CCCP era and put them in that case??????

Gulp.... and more gulps.....

What have I done.

This will hold me back from another purchase for a matter of a few months as I recover.....

The watch was never sold as being authentic.

Forgive me as my actions may serve to support franken industry.





































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mariomart

will1970 said:


> Ok I am preparing to get my fingers rapped. But when all is said and done I do like the finished look. But this is a huge newbie mistake.
> 
> Here goes.
> 
> Please see following pictures and correct me if I am wrong as i have, as a newbie, been trying to figure this out for the past 2 days knowing that some of you could figure it out in a second by one brief look.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but what I will now have on my hands is a case from the CCCP era likely a 470 in good condition, mated with a 2416b manual wind mechanism (not sure about that) then mated with a modern day Russian scuba dude face with date.
> 
> The case back is from CCCP era and seems legit to the case itself.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong again however I believe that movement never was seen in that case and of course a date face was never seen in this case as well.
> 
> So correct me if I am wrong again but I have a franken of frankens .....
> 
> So in order for me to put the pieces back together Would I need to find a 2409 movement and a Scuba Dude face from the CCCP era and put them in that case??????
> 
> Gulp.... and more gulps.....
> 
> What have I done.
> 
> This will hold me back from another purchase for a matter of a few months as I recover.....
> 
> The watch was never sold as being authentic.
> 
> Forgive me as my actions may serve to support franken industry.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Okay, the case is indeed a Type 470 from Soviet times as is the case back which would appear to be correct for this case. The crown is also correct for this case.

The movement you have shown is a 2414 and was never used in the Type 470 case to my knowledge. The Type 470 would have been originally mated to a 2409, manual wind, dateless movement.

The dial shown is indeed a modern Vostok part, so not fake/reproduction. The hands shown are also modern Vostok parts, and don't appear to be fake/reproduction.

The bezel is a well known modern fake/reproduction as it exhibits the tell-tale upside down "30" and the upside down "5" on the "50", as well as the green tinged lume dot. This fake bezel has flooded the market and shows up frequently.

Finding a dateless Scuba Dude dial from that era may end up being quite an expensive exercise as they are no longer very common in good condition, however modern dateless 2409 Scuba Dudes are still being made by Vostok. Besides that they were never issued for the Type 470 case to my knowledge.

It wouldn't take much to return it to it's original Soviet form if that is the direction you want to take.

Cheers


----------



## will1970

mariomart said:


> Okay, the case is indeed a Type 470 from Soviet times as is the case back which would appear to be correct for this case. The crown is also correct for this case.
> 
> The movement you have shown is a 2414 and was never used in the Type 470 case to my knowledge. The Type 470 would have been originally mated to a 2409, manual wind, dateless movement.
> 
> The dial shown is indeed a modern Vostok part, so not fake/reproduction. The hands shown are also modern Vostok parts, and don't appear to be fake/reproduction.
> 
> The bezel is a well known modern fake/reproduction as it exhibits the tell-tale upside down "30" and the upside down "5" on the "50", as well as the green tinged lume dot. This fake bezel has flooded the market and shows up frequently.
> 
> Finding a dateless Scuba Dude dial from that era may end up being quite an expensive exercise as they are no longer very common in good condition, however modern dateless 2409 Scuba Dudes are still being made by Vostok. Besides that they were never issued for the Type 470 case to my knowledge.
> 
> It wouldn't take much to return it to it's original Soviet form if that is the direction you want to take.
> 
> Cheers


Awesome. Thank you.

So correct me if I am wrong..... to bring this to a more authentic position I would need a 2409 movement which I could even get a new one correct and it would give me years of service and then look for any dial from the CCCP era that was used in that case......

Would a any Amphibian dial from the CCCP era from that time period work in that case to make it authentic?

Regarding the dial I guess I would need to get a dial..... hmm. Do you know what style is appropriate

Then regarding the left over modern scuba dude dial and the 2414 movement I would have I guess I would need to get the right case for that and I would have 2 fairly authentic watches???????

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mariomart

will1970 said:


> Awesome. Thank you.
> So correct me if I am wrong..... to bring this to a more authentic position I would need a 2409 movement which I could even get a new one correct and it would give me years of service and then look for any dial from the CCCP era that was used in that case......
> Would a any Amphibian dial from the CCCP era from that time period work in that case to make it authentic?
> Regarding the dial I guess I would need to get a dial..... hmm. Do you know what style is appropriate
> Then regarding the left over modern scuba dude dial and the 2414 movement I would have I guess I would need to get the right case for that and I would have 2 fairly authentic watches???????
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can purchase new 2409 movements direct from the Vostok factory through their authorised seller Meranom.com

Here is the link to the 2409 https://meranom.com/en/movements/vostok-watch-2409-movement.html

Here is a link showing the current available spares for Vostok Amphibia's https://meranom.com/en/amphibian-classic/spare-parts/?limit=200

You could use your leftover parts in one of the many spare cases available from Meranom to make another complete watch. The cases sold by Meranom come complete with case, crown, case back, seals. bezel and crystal.

The following pictures are scans of the Vostok catalog from 1990 and show common dials suitable to the Type 470 and 320 cases, so it gives you an idea of what to look for.

Good luck


----------



## will1970

mariomart said:


> You can purchase new 2409 movements direct from the Vostok factory through their authorised seller Meranom.com
> 
> Here is the link to the 2409 https://meranom.com/en/movements/vostok-watch-2409-movement.html
> 
> Here is a link showing the current available spares for Vostok Amphibia's https://meranom.com/en/amphibian-classic/spare-parts/?limit=200
> 
> You could use your leftover parts in one of the many spare cases available from Meranom to make another complete watch. The cases sold by Meranom come complete with case, crown, case back, seals. bezel and crystal.
> 
> The following pictures are scans of the Vostok catalog from 1990 and show common dials suitable to the Type 470 and 320 cases, so it gives you an idea of what to look for.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> - What at amazing wealth of information!!!!!! Wow !!!!!
> 
> Thank you!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mariomart

Duplicate Post


----------



## mariomart

will1970 said:


> - What at amazing wealth of information!!!!!! Wow !!!!!
> Thank you!!!!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You are welcome, that is why this thread exists.

You may also want to have a read through the " A Guide: Buying / Modifying / Repairing VOSTOK AMPHIBIA " thread, located here https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/guide-buying-modifying-repairing-vostok-amphibia-3042242.html


----------



## Neruda

will1970 said:


> Awesome. Thank you.
> 
> So correct me if I am wrong..... to bring this to a more authentic position I would need a 2409 movement which I could even get a new one correct and it would give me years of service and then look for any dial from the CCCP era that was used in that case......
> 
> Would a any Amphibian dial from the CCCP era from that time period work in that case to make it authentic?
> 
> Regarding the dial I guess I would need to get a dial..... hmm. Do you know what style is appropriate
> 
> Then regarding the left over modern scuba dude dial and the 2414 movement I would have I guess I would need to get the right case for that and I would have 2 fairly authentic watches???????


I may be wrong, but I understand modern dials have different positioning pins to the old Soviet dials so won't fit on older movements without modification, and vice versa. Some people remove the pins and fix the dial in place with adhesive tape.


----------



## mariomart

Neruda said:


> I may be wrong, but I understand modern dials have different positioning pins to the old Soviet dials so won't fit on older movements without modification, and vice versa. Some people remove the pins and fix the dial in place with adhesive tape.


I always thought that only applied to the 22XX series of movements, which did have different pin locations. I think all 24XX series watches have the same pin positions, apart for the 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock crown position models which had specific dials manufactured with the pins relocated.


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## will1970

I have a feeling that this dial would be hard to find.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mroatman

will1970 said:


> I have a feeling that this dial would be hard to find.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your feeling is right.


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## Emancipator12

found this pretty Lush on eBay...

But is it in any way legit??

























Dennis.


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## mroatman

Emancipator12 said:


> found this pretty Lush on eBay...
> 
> But is it in any way legit??
> 
> Dennis.


Well, every watch is legit in SOME way, but for this one -- not in the way it matters.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/help-identify-fake-luch-ultra-slim-2209-a-4106218.html


----------



## chien-andalou

First post, so a quick thanks to all sharing their knowledge here, putting their collection up for reference, posting links to catalogs... great community!


Raketa or Franketa? 
My doubt is I couldn't find a silver crown on a silver dial anywhere, so could this be a combination of variations on the same model? And would that make it a lesser franken?
Any worries about the double up: CCCP logo + СДЕЛАНО B CCCP ? Doesn't seem very common either.
Is currently on ebay, seems to be getting plenty attention, so is not going to go cheap I guess. :-|


----------



## mariomart

chien-andalou said:


> Any worries about the double up: CCCP logo + СДЕЛАНО B CCCP ?


I can't really answer your question about the watch as it's not my area of knowledge, however I can answer your query as to the 2 CCCP markings. The emblem is actually the State Quality mark of the USSR. Here is a wiki link to more details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_quality_mark_of_the_USSR


----------



## mariomart

I also just found these very similar cased watches in the 1977 catalog, although they don't appear to have the Quality mark. They may be helpful as a reference.

Oh, and WELCOME to the f10 forum


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## schnurrp

mariomart said:


> I also just found these very similar cased watches in the 1977 catalog, although they don't appear to have the Quality mark. They may be helpful as a reference.
> 
> Oh, and WELCOME to the f10 forum
> 
> View attachment 12345805
> 
> 
> View attachment 12345807


The "quality mark" should be of no concern since, in my experience, it's an unreliable occurrence about which some are excited and others are ambivalent.

However, the positioning and curve of the place of manufacture would suggest to me the dial is not in the proper case. Perhaps it is from this '83 model:

https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12345837&stc=1&d=1499947533


----------



## mroatman

chien-andalou said:


> Raketa or Franketa?
> My doubt is I couldn't find a silver crown on a silver dial anywhere, so could this be a combination of variations on the same model? And would that make it a lesser franken?
> Any worries about the double up: CCCP logo + СДЕЛАНО B CCCP ? Doesn't seem very common either.


I think.....Franketa.

There's no problem with having the brand name, quality seal, and place of manufacture on the same dial. This is actually quite common.

The problem for me is the spacing of all these elements. On most UFO dials, it's nice and spread out, like so:









But on the watch in question, these markings are more squished together, leaving an (IMO) inappropriate amount of empty space on the dial. Most probably, the sunburst portion of this dial comes from the following strange model:









Smart decision to post here before buying. I would pass.

And welcome to the forum!


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> View attachment 12345845
> 
> 
> Smart decision to post here before buying. I would pass.
> 
> And welcome to the forum!


Are you sure that one's authentic, Dash? I may be missing a catalog but none of the one's I've searched have that one. I still think the dial and hand set is from one of these: https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12345935&stc=1&d=1499953240


----------



## chien-andalou

mroatman said:


> I think.....Franketa.
> 
> There's no problem with having the brand name, quality seal, and place of manufacture on the same dial. This is actually quite common.
> 
> The problem for me is the spacing of all these elements. On most UFO dials, it's nice and spread out, like so:
> 
> But on the watch in question, these markings are more squished together, leaving an (IMO) inappropriate amount of empty space on the dial. Most probably, the sunburst portion of this dial comes from the following strange model:
> 
> Smart decision to post here before buying. I would pass.
> 
> And welcome to the forum!


Thanks everybody. Advertised as "VINTAGE very rare dial" by watch._.show, so I'll pass indeed.
From the catalog images it does seem that these Raketa UFO's typically have contrasting crown and dials for the, eg no silver on silver.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Are you sure that one's authentic, Dash? I may be missing a catalog but none of the one's I've searched have that one. I still think the dial and hand set is from one of these: https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12345935&stc=1&d=1499953240


Course I can't be positive, and I've never seen it in a catalog, either. But...

1. The unique UFO case has got to be legit, right? No artisan would take the time to craft those nice little pyramids around the bezel, and even if they did, it would have wrecked the chrome. This case doesn't show up in any catalogs to my knowledge, but personally I have no doubts as to authenticity. 
2. What other kind of dial would go inside the minute track? I don't know of many options that would fit in such a small, round sapce. It's got to be a pretty squished design to fit the brand name and place of manufacturer.
3. As I recall, the TV case you suggest has a dial that's also not round, so I don't think it would fit well into the UFO case without exposing areas at the top and bottom, as below:


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Course I can't be positive, and I've never seen it in a catalog, either. But...
> 
> 1. The unique UFO case has got to be legit, right? No artisan would take the time to craft those nice little pyramids around the bezel, and even if they did, it would have wrecked the chrome. This case doesn't show up in any catalogs to my knowledge, but personally I have no doubts as to authenticity.
> 2. What other kind of dial would go inside the minute track? I don't know of many options that would fit in such a small, round sapce. It's got to be a pretty squished design to fit the brand name and place of manufacturer.
> 3. As I recall, the TV case you suggest has a dial that's also not round, so I don't think it would fit well into the UFO case without exposing areas at the top and bottom, as below:
> 
> View attachment 12345987


Hard to be positive about Russian watches but I agree with statement 1. as far as the case is concerned.

As to statement 2. about the inner dial it could be from the one pictured below: https://www.watchuseek.com/images/attach/jpg.gif.

As to statement 3., I have worked on that particular tv before and it has a round inner dial that covers the movement.

As to the Raketa in question, this is how it should look, in my humble opinion, from Antonov: https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12346053&stc=1&d=1499957057


----------



## chien-andalou

chien-andalou said:


> Thanks everybody. Advertised as "VINTAGE very rare dial" by watch._.show, so I'll pass indeed.
> From the catalog images it does seem that these Raketa UFO's typically have contrasting crown and dials for the, eg no silver on silver.


Oops, I meant contrasting BEZEL and dial.

When I put this dial over the dial from mroatman's post, I get a perfect match of logo's and writing. 
The TV dial catalog pic is too fuzzy to do the same.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Hard to be positive about Russian watches but I agree with statement 1. as far as the case is concerned.
> As to statement 2. about the inner dial it could be from the one pictured below: https://www.watchuseek.com/images/attach/jpg.gif.
> As to statement 3., I have worked on that particular tv before and it has a round inner dial that covers the movement.
> As to the Raketa in question, this is how it should look, in my humble opinion, from Antonov: https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12346053&stc=1&d=1499957057


I agree with your opinion on how the watch should look. Other possibilities: 1, 2.

Just because I'm curious, what in your opinion should be at the center of my watch, then? Talking about this one.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Just because I'm curious, what in your opinion should be at the center of my watch, then? Talking about this one.


Well, if we look at the Raketa "UFO" watch type. which first shows up in catalogs available to me in 1975 and are all gone by the big '83 catalog, they all appear to be made up of three parts, the round heavy lugless case with a couple of different edge treatments, an hour bar insert, a central dial with place of manufacture following the proper circular arc, and blunt slotted and filled hour and minute hands, and a thin second hand. I can only conclude, then, that yours should have those missing elements in some combination but I wouldn't be shocked if a catalog surfaced showing yours "as-is" or it appeared in another collection, just surprised.

I have this one I bought on an impulse when I was tinkering with Raketa automatic substitute dials which I assumed was a franken using the dial from the last one pictured. It has a very cool black finished metal bracelet.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Well, if we look at the Raketa "UFO" watch type. which first shows up in catalogs available to me in 1975 and are all gone by the big '83 catalog, they all appear to be made up of three parts, the round heavy lugless case with a couple of different edge treatments, an hour bar insert, a central dial with place of manufacture following the proper circular arc, and blunt slotted and filled hour and minute hands, and a thin second hand. I can only conclude, then, that yours should have those missing elements in some combination but I wouldn't be shocked if a catalog surfaced showing yours "as-is" or it appeared in another collection, just surprised.


Appreciate your opinion. I just wish we could easily account for these parts on other watches, then there'd be no question -- it's a franken.

As it is, I don't know where the black ring with gold numbers would otherwise come from. Your waffle-textured day/date is close, but not quite.

Wait, here's a thought. Maybe the below watch, with a black dial (did it come with a black dial?), with a hole cut in the center and the outer minute track scrubbed clean. Then, a new _inner _minute track was painted by hand, and a TV dial was inserted beneath. Hands could come from anywhere (e.g. this one).









Possible?


----------



## dmnc

This may be a stupid question that has been answered before, but I'm failing to find an answer with searches.

Is there a central repository for all the catalogues? I have a few that I've picked up from various sources but others seem to have many more.

Is there a copyright issue or something? If not, and one doesn't exist, I'd be happy to host them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

dmnc said:


> This may be a stupid question that has been answered before, but I'm failing to find an answer with searches.
> 
> Is there a central repository for all the catalogues? I have a few that I've picked up from various sources but others seem to have many more.
> 
> Is there a copyright issue or something? If not, and one doesn't exist, I'd be happy to host them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've picked up all of mine from here https://plus.google.com/113098239036073221216?banner=pwa


----------



## NuttySlack

What about mine? I can't find one with a day/date window in a catalogue.









Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> As it is, I don't know where the black ring with gold numbers would otherwise come from. Your waffle-textured day/date is close, but not quite.


No, I could not find the parts necessary to construct your "franken" so this is a step towards authentic, in my opinion. The waffle dial is not offered as a possibility just an example of a franken constructed using a "UFO" case.


----------



## schnurrp

NuttySlack said:


> What about mine? I can't find one with a day/date window in a catalogue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


This appears to be the classic "UFO" form with all the elements and I would lean toward authentic for this one.


----------



## mroatman

dmnc said:


> Is there a central repository for all the catalogues?





mariomart said:


> I've picked up all of mine from here https://plus.google.com/113098239036073221216?banner=pwa


I think the most exhaustive sources are as follows, organized by date:

Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com
Cataloghi Orologi Sovietici Russi Soviet Russian Watches Catalog Sowjetische Russische Uhren Katalog - cccp-forum.it


----------



## mroatman

NuttySlack said:


> What about mine? I can't find one with a day/date window in a catalogue.





schnurrp said:


> This appears to be the classic "UFO" form with all the elements and I would lean toward authentic for this one.


Plenty of examples of day/date Raketa UFOs (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6).

I say, definitely authentic.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> No, I could not find the parts necessary to construct your "franken" so this is a step towards authentic, in my opinion.


If mine is a franken, then someone had to work very hard and very carefully to make something that ugly.


----------



## NuttySlack

Thanks Dashiell, I thought it was - you can sort of 'feel' it.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> If mine is a franken, then someone had to work very hard and very carefully to make something that ugly.


Yes, comrade dizayner was having a bad day when that one came off the drawing board.


----------



## CierzoZgz

I am really enjoying this discussion, thank you very much
Allow me to participate with an assumption about the origin of the Dash watch ...







(Which also confirm the NuttySlack's Raketa as present in a catalogue)

Plus:







extracted from the same page. Case and bezel of first plus movement and dial from second results in the Dashiell example. Not needed to drill a big hole, it came done from factory...

I agree with Schnurrp about the origin of center dial in the questioned Raketa, the almost flat curve of the "sdelano..." wouldn't match with the UFO marks curve but with the 881181 model.

My first guessing, referred to the inquiry of the new comrade, was for that model








But it should result in a legit UFO, being the same dial part for both models, I think


----------



## NuttySlack

CierzoZgz may I ask which catalogue is this from? And from which year?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## CierzoZgz

NuttySlack said:


> CierzoZgz may I ask which catalogue is this from? And from which year?
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


It isn't a watch catalogue itself, but a part of a bigger catalogue of all type of items "made in Leningrad"

Mr. Antonov is the provider:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipODRpqWQiWL1cK9Tt-eb7ViZufQSZUo6lx2l7NY


----------



## NuttySlack

Thanks, yes I follow him on Google+

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

CierzoZgz said:


> I am really enjoying this discussion, thank you very much
> Allow me to participate with an assumption about the origin of the Dash watch ...





CierzoZgz said:


> It isn't a watch catalogue itself, but a part of a bigger catalogue of all type of items "made in Leningrad"


Super investigative work, CierzoZgz, thank you!!

So, I do have a very uncommon Raketa UFO, just not in it's true, unadulterated form.

In terms of the case, since there were so many variations of this UFO case, most of them appearing side-by-side in the same catalogs, I'd like to believe the case on mine at least *could* be original. But I am now confident, without doubt, that the center of the dial comes from a Raketa TV.

Or _maybe_, this model was so incredibly unpopular (the designers realizing just how ugly it is), that they abandoned the idea halfway through, producing all components except the center dial before realizing they were making a horrible mistake that would forever tarnish their brand name. So they decided to scrap the idea, but not without first using up the available parts that had already been produced, filling the center dial area with Raketa TV dials they already had on hand.

Wishful thinking, you say? Ha! You're just jealous I have the ugliest Soviet watch of them all b-)

-

Thank you for helping solve this mystery ?


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Super investigative work, CierzoZgz, thank you!!
> 
> So, I do have a very uncommon Raketa UFO, just not in it's true, unadulterated form.
> 
> In terms of the case, since there were so many variations of this UFO case, most of them appearing side-by-side in the same catalogs, I'd like to believe the case on mine at least *could* be original. But I am now confident, without doubt, that the center of the dial comes from a Raketa TV.
> 
> Or _maybe_, this model was so incredibly unpopular (the designers realizing just how ugly it is), that they abandoned the idea halfway through, producing all components except the center dial before realizing they were making a horrible mistake that would forever tarnish their brand name. So they decided to scrap the idea, but not without first using up the available parts that had already been produced, filling the center dial area with Raketa TV dials they already had on hand.
> 
> Wishful thinking, you say? Ha! You're just jealous I have the ugliest Soviet watch of them all b-)
> 
> -
> 
> Thank you for helping solve this mystery 


I would be very surprised if such a rare dial/hands combo had been switched from one case to another different one so I believe yours is an authentic variation, Dash.

Nice assumption, CierzoZg.


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I would be very surprised if such a rare dial/hands combo had been switched from one case to another different one so I believe yours is an authentic variation, Dash.


Thanks. You've gone from this watch's biggest critic to its biggest supporter in the span of one page. Somebody get this guy a beer!

Something stood out to me in that "Made in Leningrad" magazine as not entirely authentic:









Compared with every other original example I've seen with the following hands:

















So I'm not sure that magazine is entirely 100% reliable for every detail. But it's the first time I've seen that hideous UFO in print, so I'll take it.


----------



## kev80e

CierzoZgz said:


> I am really enjoying this discussion, thank you very much


I have to agree, a very interesting discussion. I love watching these mysteries unfold.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Thanks. You've gone from this watch's biggest critic to its biggest supporter in the span of one page. Somebody get this guy a beer!


You know I call them as I see them, Dash, but I never actually said it was definitely not authentic (I am steeped in f10 hedging speech).

"I wouldn't be shocked if a catalog surfaced showing yours "as-is" or it appeared in another collection, just surprised."

"I could not find the parts necessary to construct your "franken" so this is a step towards authentic"


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> I am steeped in f10 hedging speech


Aren't we all...

Anyway, I'm glad for your skepticism, as I don't think I would have learned the origins of this watch otherwise. Curiosity is what keeps this forum going. Keep the critiques coming.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Aren't we all...
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad for your skepticism, as I don't think I would have learned the origins of this watch otherwise. Curiosity is what keeps this forum going. Keep the critiques coming.


It's certainly what I hope for when I post a thread.


----------



## mike.s

Just an observation. I believe TV-case dials are, indeed, round, The print is squared-of on the top and bottom, the actual round dial's top and bottom are left painted but empty. 

What would be really useful and interesting, and I'm still learning, is to have a little dictionary of the current Russian slang for different case types and specific watches. Vulcano, NLO, Little Pot, Cheburashka, Baker, Vernisage, All-Ears, etc.


----------



## schnurrp

mike.s said:


> Just an observation. I believe TV-case dials are, indeed, round, The print is squared-of on the top and bottom, the actual round dial's top and bottom are left painted but empty.


From Etsy:


----------



## schnurrp

Probably beating a dead horse but notice the arcs of the place of manufacture for the two dials:


----------



## Pentona

My new Raketa Big Zero/Kopernikus/Compass Perestroika CCCP Business, I guess either from about 1992 (SU movement, no Made in), or a franken. And another Raketa, does this one have a nickname?


----------



## Dimy

Pentona said:


> My new Raketa Big Zero/Kopernikus/Compass Perestroika CCCP Business, I guess either from about 1992 (SU movement, no Made in), or a franken. And another Raketa, does this one have a nickname?


the second Raketa looks authentic to me but lets the experts chime. the first watch ... ugh... typical tourist fantasy watch from the early '90s.


----------



## mroatman

Pentona said:


> My new Raketa Big Zero/Kopernikus/Compass Perestroika CCCP Business, I guess either from about 1992 (SU movement, no Made in), or a franken. And another Raketa, does this one have a nickname?





Dimy said:


> the second Raketa looks authentic to me but lets the experts chime.


The second watch looks authentic. In English-speaking crowds, it's often called the "Raketa TV". In Russian-speaking areas, it's usually known as the "Raketa Baker".


----------



## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Probably beating a dead horse but notice the arcs of the place of manufacture for the two dials:


No, you're right. Mine is not fully-authentic. I'm sure the center of the dial comes from a Raketa TV.

As a matter of interest (and extreme luck), I passed by a tiny watch-repair shop in Old Town today and saw this in the window:

















I didn't buy it -- priced too high in my opinion -- but what are the odds??

The rest of the watches weren't anything to write home about. Lots of frankens, mediocre condition, high prices...


----------



## mike.s

schnurrp said:


> From Etsy:


Yep, those are the so-called Raketa Baker and Poljot TV-set.


----------



## mike.s

Pentona said:


> My new Raketa Big Zero/Kopernikus/Compass Perestroika CCCP Business, I guess either from about 1992 (SU movement, no Made in), or a franken. And another Raketa, does this one have a nickname?


The first one, a Franken... you suppose? Gave me a good chuckle. Especially after I've looked at a pristine shiny "Sputnik" today and heard the obligatory lecture of the "real navigators's Poljot watches" while looking at bastardized Molnias, one, I believe, with Nicholas the 2nd. The question of what Nick, the czar, was piloting remained unanswered for some reason.

The second watch is a fairly decent looking Raketa "Baker". At this point I don;t know why Russians call it that, will try to find out shortly.


----------



## mike.s

Funny, Dash, I bought a ZIM today at Kiev's flea market, the same model as the UFO-looking ZIM on your last pic above. Mine has reddish dial with nice stripes, though.


----------



## mroatman

mike.s said:


> The second watch is a fairly decent looking Raketa "Baker". At this point I don't know why Russians call it that, will try to find out shortly.


According to samun (here): "These hours are called as Raketa Baker, the name of these hours has the legend, to me it was told by one of large Russian collectors, give to you short retelling:
_On a legend, on Petrodvorets Watch Factory there arrived delegation from England. In the head of the delegation there was a person by the name of Baker. This delegation ordered for England party of hours in such cases. After party sent to England, hours in such cases "went" on domestic market. From here also the name "Baker" went. At that time these hours were very popular because of the unusual form of the case."_



mike.s said:


> Funny, Dash, I bought a ZIM today at Kiev's flea market, the same model as the UFO-looking ZIM on your last pic above. Mine has reddish dial with nice stripes.


I bet you paid less than €40 for it, though!


----------



## ia2nc

Sturmanskie Aviator SS-20, can you help verify authenticity? I bought it for my husband ~8-10 years ago through a colleague in Denmark, at that time believed the story that the case was made with metal from a decommissioned Russian missile. He has never worn it and it has been in it's original box in a drawer all this time. The front looks like images I can find online but I can't find images of the back that look like ours. It is numbered on the back with 112 over 500. It still has plastic over the front so I posted a couple of photos in different light to try to show it best. I did not remove the plastic for the photo but I could if needed. The inside of the leather band is embossed "Aviator". We are downsizing and if we decide to sell it, I don't want to misrepresent it. I'm not sure if I can ask on this forum what a fair price would be, but an estimate would be appreciated.


----------



## mike.s

mroatman said:


> According to samun (here): "These hours are called as Raketa Baker, the name of these hours has the legend, to me it was told by one of large Russian collectors, give to you short retelling:
> _On a legend, on Petrodvorets Watch Factory there arrived delegation from England. In the head of the delegation there was a person by the name of Baker. This delegation ordered for England party of hours in such cases. After party sent to England, hours in such cases "went" on domestic market. From here also the name "Baker" went. At that time these hours were very popular because of the unusual form of the case."
> _


Interesting. I'd still like to confirm things in Russian and put it together a bit better in English, though the concept is understood. But, for example, was it sold in UK or was more of a present and, if sold, was it under the name Raketa, Sekonda or, perhaps, Baker, in UK?



> I bet you paid less than €40 for it, though!


Are we counting now-cheap airline tickets?  Actually, it was fairly inexpensive, but the shape is not nearly as nice as that pic in Old Town. I'm not sure that the raised glass is native to this watch and the crown is pretty brassy looking. But it was an impulse, everything watch-related is out of hack expensive here and in horrible shape. Every single seller makes me want to forcefully ask whether they think I'm dumb, blind or both. Alas, I prefer to simply notice and collect their bulls... stories as a source of fairly endless entertainment. They do get repetitive, though. Today was special. A guy was trying to explain to me that his mid-60s "Swiss" non-chronograph with inkjet-printed telemeter scale (sic) in generic modern scale was a "WW1 artillery watch" with "soldered lugs". He has some shame, as he only wanted $150 for that wonder. Mind you, I speak both local languages naively, I had Type-1 ticking on my wrist, so it's not like... arrrgh.

Taking about... how many watches did you bring to Estonia, Dash? Was it 32? I just looked at my desk here in Kiev. Lessee. 2 3133s, 2 31861s, Type-1, this UFO ZIM, 24-hour "Watch" Raketa and 2 electro-mechanical Chaikas that I just sent to Sergei for R&R. And I'm here for just 2 weeks. The non-matched frequency mechanical cacophony they produce as a group is hard to ignore in a one-room apartment. That's just sad.


----------



## mike.s

ia2nc said:


> Sturmanskie Aviator SS-20, can you help verify authenticity? I bought it for my husband ~8-10 years ago through a colleague in Denmark, at that time believed the story that the case was made with metal from a decommissioned Russian missile. He has never worn it and it has been in it's original box in a drawer all this time. The front looks like images I can find online but I can't find images of the back that look like ours. It is numbered on the back with 112 over 500. It still has plastic over the front so I posted a couple of photos in different light to try to show it best. I did not remove the plastic for the photo but I could if needed. The inside of the leather band is embossed "Aviator". We are downsizing and if we decide to sell it, I don't want to misrepresent it. I'm not sure if I can ask on this forum what a fair price would be, but an estimate would be appreciated.


Looks pretty standard late 3133 in SS-20 case to me. They were available back about 10-12 years ago and the "limited series" was mostly a marketing ploy, you can see a couple of other SS-20 "Limited Editions" here, for example: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/my-f...manskie-chronograph-titan-ss-20-a-720494.html

I'd put the estimate at $200-300 today and would actually think that eBay would be the right selling vehicle for this watch.


----------



## wristies

Picked up what I believe is a legit Amphibia. Has a couple of issues, I don't know if they're out of the ordinary.
1. Bezel does not ratchet, and turns both ways: from what I read, this is not unusual.
2. Crown wheel seems to be loose on the spindle. Is this normal or just a repair job?

Pics.















Seller said it's a 2209 inside, will take the back off when I get home tonight and check it out.

Nice size, I think I'm going to bring this one into high rotation for a while.


----------



## mariomart

wristies said:


> Picked up what I believe is a legit Amphibia. Has a couple of issues, I don't know if they're out of the ordinary.
> 1. Bezel does not ratchet, and turns both ways: from what I read, this is not unusual.
> 2. Crown wheel seems to be loose on the spindle. Is this normal or just a repair job?
> 
> Seller said it's a 2209 inside, will take the back off when I get home tonight and check it out.
> 
> Nice size, I think I'm going to bring this one into high rotation for a while.


Nice, looks to be all original.

To answer your questions, 1. The typical Vostok Amphibia does not have a ratcheting bezel, they are bidirectional (some rather rare models were produced with a unidirectional ratcheting bezel). 2. There is nothing wrong with your crown wheel, which is often referred to as a "Wobbly" crown, it is a design feature which incorporates a clutch. Inside you should find a 2409 movement, as signified by the "17 Jewel" marking on the dial (2209 had a 18 jewel count).

Lovely watch that I'm sure will get plenty of wrist action and bring a smile to your dial


----------



## Neruda

Both the bezel and crown are completely normal - your watch looks good to me! A peculiarity of the crown stem is that it only engages when it is slightly pulled out to protect it from accidental damage - a unique feature to Vostok, I think.


----------



## wristies

Thank you responders. Wearing it already...


----------



## mroatman

mike.s said:


> Interesting. I'd still like to confirm things in Russian and put it together a bit better in English, though the concept is understood. But, for example, was it sold in UK or was more of a present and, if sold, was it under the name Raketa, Sekonda or, perhaps, Baker, in UK?


Yeah, do let us know what you find out. I'd be interested to learn more.



mike.s said:


> How many watches did you bring to Estonia, Dash? Was it 32?


Yes, exactly!

But......I've got a few more than that now 



mike.s said:


> I just looked at my desk here in Kiev. Lessee. 2 3133s, 2 31861s, Type-1, this UFO ZIM, 24-hour "Watch" Raketa and 2 electro-mechanical Chaikas that I just sent to Sergei for R&R. And I'm here for just 2 weeks. The non-matched frequency mechanical cacophony they produce as a group is hard to ignore in a one-room apartment. That's just sad.


If you get enough of them together, and if they're all running at the same beat rate (and with low beat error), they should eventually synchronize: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-happens-when-1845898-2.html#post15465026


----------



## mike.s

I have 6 out of 7 ticking on a glass table. The sound is interesting and pretty omnidirectional. But only 4 of them are at the same frequency, I think.


----------



## wristies

2409 confirmed. No stamping but matches images, and some do not have a number or the B symbol on them at all. Keeping very good time. For the equivalent of US$42 I'm happy.


----------



## armanh

Dear experts,

What's your opinion on this Raketa with a 2609.HA?


----------



## mroatman

armanh said:


> What's your opinion on this Raketa with a 2609.HA?


This looks absolutely authentic to me. I cannot find it in any catalog, but I would feel comfortable buy it.

Here's another model with similar features (and the cutest little sailboat there ever was ?).


----------



## mroatman

Bezel -- legit or franken?


----------



## amil

mroatman said:


> Bezel -- legit or franken?
> 
> View attachment 12358133


yes.


----------



## mroatman

amil said:


> yes.


Thanks!


----------



## elsoldemayo

This case and dial a legit combo?


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> This case and dial a legit combo?
> 
> View attachment 12359731
> [/Q
> 
> UOTE]
> 
> No, comrade, that is an amphibian dial but a type 320 or 470 amphibian case (can't remember which is authentic) would be easy to find.


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> elsoldemayo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This case and dial a legit combo?
> 
> View attachment 12359731
> [/Q
> 
> UOTE]
> 
> No, comrade, that is an amphibian dial but a type 320 or 470 amphibian case (can't remember which is authentic) would be easy to find.
> 
> 
> 
> Type 470 (brushed) and the bezel would need to be replaced.
Click to expand...


----------



## mariomart

elsoldemayo said:


> This case and dial a legit combo?


Amphibia dial, Amphibia hands (probably on a 2409 movement), Komandirskie Type 34 case and crown. Bezel is fine for Amphibia and Komandirskie.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Thx guys, thought as much but for under €30 no harm done. I actually like how the dial and case work together.


----------



## amil

elsoldemayo said:


> Thx guys, thought as much but for under €30 no harm done. I actually like how the dial and case work together.


But the correct body is stainless steel. It will please you for a long time. And it will grow.


----------



## mroatman

elsoldemayo said:


> I actually like how the dial and case work together.


I was actually going to say the same thing. Not original, but not unattractive either.


----------



## haejuk

I've been considering this Tankist, but I am not sure that the caseback and bezel are correct for it. I already showed a friend, who says the movement looks good (stamped with 2414A SU), which is why I didn't post a picture of it.

Also, while we're here, can anyone figure the age of it?


----------



## Arizone

haejuk said:


> I've been considering this Tankist, but I am not sure that the caseback and bezel are correct for it. I already showed a friend, who says the movement looks good (stamped with 2414A SU), which is why I didn't post a picture of it.
> 
> Also, while we're here, can anyone figure the age of it?


Does not look original. The bezel is from an Amphibian and the back does not look period correct. Aside from it being a 3AKA3, you can find something looking better.


----------



## haejuk

Thanks Arizone. I will give this one a pass then. I wouldn't really want to attempt to find the original parts that have matching age and wear to this watch.


----------



## lobefin

I found this Luch ultra-thin on the 'bay:









and was pretty excited about it until I saw this thread, in which OP's got the same watch (fifth one down) that looks like it's got a different color second hand. Am I right in thinking it's been replaced? (Is it worth getting anyway? :-()


----------



## mroatman

lobefin said:


> I found this Luch ultra-thin on the 'bay:
> and was pretty excited about it until I saw this thread, in which OP's got the same watch (fifth one down) that looks like it's got a different color second hand. Am I right in thinking it's been replaced? (Is it worth getting anyway? :-()


Mine appears to have a gold-ish hand (maybe faded red?). It'd be near impossible to determine what was original, as I don't think this model ever appeared in any catalog.

Anyway, if you like it, and if the price is right, I wouldn't let the color of this one hand bother you too much. It's a very minor thing, really.


----------



## schnurrp

lobefin said:


> I found this Luch ultra-thin on the 'bay:
> 
> View attachment 12364973
> 
> 
> and was pretty excited about it until I saw this thread, in which OP's got the same watch (fifth one down) that looks like it's got a different color second hand. Am I right in thinking it's been replaced? (Is it worth getting anyway? :-()


The replacement of a second hand is a little more of a concern to me than, for instance, the replacement of a crystal or a crown since those items can wear out over time and need replacement by the various owners. It's a little harder, personally, to imagine how it becomes necessary to replace a second hand beyond the possibility of the entire watch having been pieced together and the authentic second hand unavailable. However, most collectors after a while find themselves "restoring" items in their collection that have little inauthentic details and you could certainly do that with the appropriate black or even red second hand which would be better than the, to me, mysterious gold one.


----------



## mike.s

The second hand may very well have been replaced due to corrosion. Soviet painting and chrome plating (unlike gold plating) was of pretty poor quality and my guess is that this watch is about 30-35 years old. 

99.4% of the Soviet and, later, Russian/Ukrainian watch repair people had zero interest in authenticity, only in function and cheapness of repair, in my experience. You have to really look for exceptions and discuss details with them, otherwise they would only pay attention to the second hand going around and not hitting the glass or catching on the other hands and the dial. When you ask for an authentic part they look at you like an alien.


----------



## lobefin

Huh. That's interesting information - thanks guys. (@mroatman, it's pretty reassuring to see your second hand is about the same color!) The seller posted a picture of the mechanism:









I don't know a whole lot about watch innards yet, but I can see "2209," 23 jewels in Russian, and "SU," so that seems like a good sign? Mostly I just don't want it to be DOA.

I quite like it, and it's not super expensive, so I'm thinking about it.

Edit: I would wonder how corroded the outside chrome plating is if the second hand inside might have had to be replaced for that reason, but other than a few scratches I don't see much of a problem with it? Also, @mike.s, how did you come to 30-35? I'm curious - idk how to date this watch other than looking at how the brand is written on the dial (the seller lists it as 1970-1979, but, well).


----------



## mroatman

lobefin said:


> Huh. That's interesting information - thanks guys. (@mroatman, it's pretty reassuring to see your second hand is about the same color!) The seller posted a picture of the mechanism:
> I don't know a whole lot about watch innards yet, but I can see "2209," 23 jewels in Russian, and "SU," so that seems like a good sign? Mostly I just don't want it to be DOA.
> I quite like it, and it's not super expensive, so I'm thinking about it.
> Edit: I would wonder how corroded the outside chrome plating is if the second hand inside might have had to be replaced for that reason, but other than a few scratches I don't see much of a problem with it? Also, @mike.s, how did you come to 30-35? I'm curious - idk how to date this watch other than looking at how the brand is written on the dial (the seller lists it as 1970-1979, but, well).


Unfortunately, the only way to know if it will be DOA is to order it and find out. We all rely on a bit of trust when dealing on eBay.

The chrome plating looks fine.

The movement looks fine to me, too, though the balance has probably been replaced since these "SU" movements had smooth balances with beat-error adjustment, and the one you show is studded and with a fixed hairspring endpoint. Not a big deal, and probably brought a non-working movement back to life.

I think mike.s is exactly right in his age estimate. I would position this watch comfortably in the 1980s. Usually, if you take what the seller is claiming and add +10 years, you get a pretty realistic timeframe for when a watch was produced. Not always, but surprisingly often.


----------



## dmnc

armanh said:


> Dear experts,
> 
> What's your opinion on this Raketa with a 2609.HA?
> 
> View attachment 12356741


I have a couple of this model. That example looks, to my eye, completely legit and also in very good condition.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chien-andalou

For your consideration: two textured dial Vostoks on ebay, the grey one has no pics or indication of movement.
Interesting difference in hands?
cheers
Peter


----------



## SennaGTS

Hello, what do you think of this Crab? The colours and case appear to be correct to me. I feel I must ask the seller for photos of the movement too. Is it also worth $93 when considering condition? The watch is from a seller in Ukraine on Etsy which makes me a little skeptical. Thank you for any help!


----------



## elsoldemayo

Dial, case and crown all look good. Hands are also correct but the second hand is either replaced or the end has fallen off. It should reach the minute indices as shown on these examples.


----------



## Neruda

Chien-Andalou: I think the first watch is good. I'm guessing the movement dates to around 1985, so if this fits with any catalogue all is well.

The second watch however looks more suspect. The red numbers in the date wheel should be earlier - I think they changed to black in the seventies. I'm also not at all sure of the hands - they look off to me. I'd be more careful of this one personally. 

By the way, it's a beautiful dial design!


----------



## Straight_time

mroatman said:


> lobefin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found this Luch ultra-thin on the 'bay:
> and was pretty excited about it until I saw this thread, in which OP's got the same watch (fifth one down) that looks like it's got a different color second hand. Am I right in thinking it's been replaced? (Is it worth getting anyway? )
> 
> 
> 
> Mine appears to have a gold-ish hand (maybe faded red?). It'd be near impossible to determine what was original, as I don't think this model ever appeared in any catalog.
> Anyway, if you like it, and if the price is right, I wouldn't let the color of this one hand bother you too much. It's a very minor thing, really.
> 
> View attachment 12365135
Click to expand...

Red seconds hand. ;-)

КАТАЛОГ ТОВАРЫ НАРОДНОГО ПОТРЕБЛЕНИ Tom 2: часы
 (retrieved from here) page 52, nr.26 -unfortunately the indication of the model is missing.


----------



## SennaGTS

elsoldemayo said:


> Dial, case and crown all look good. Hands are also correct but the second hand is either replaced or the end has fallen off. It should reach the minute indices as shown on these examples.


Thank you for responding. I see what you mean with the second hand. It must have most likely been replaced, as what are the chances of the end breaking off?

I just received these photos of the movement:

















If the second hand is in fact not original, it certainly isn't worth $93 is it?


----------



## kev80e

I've been offered a boctok 3133 but I have serious reservations about the dial . Just looks off which would surprise me with this seller. What do you guys think?


----------



## elsoldemayo

SennaGTS said:


> Thank you for responding. I see what you mean with the second hand. It must have most likely been replaced, as what are the chances of the end breaking off?
> 
> I just received these photos of the movement:
> 
> If the second hand is in fact not original, it certainly isn't worth $93 is it?


Movement looks fine. The second hand could be easily restored if you watch out for a spares watch. The case and dial are in very good condition but with patience you can get a fully original version for that much or less.


----------



## elsoldemayo

kev80e said:


> I've been offered a boctok 3133 but I have serious reservations about the dial . Just looks off which would surprise me with this seller. What do you guys think?


Could be legit. I have 3133 Komandirskies I've never seen elsewhere. Reservations would be I've never seen that dial before. Every Vostok 3133 I've seen has Komandriskie in cursive script and the stylised B. Also the printing under the sub-dials, the indices seems to be a lot cleaner than the parachute and Komandirskie printing.
Almost as if someone took this dial and added some additional printing and popped it in a different 3133 case. A lot of work to go to which makes me 50/50.
Any pics of the movement?


----------



## kev80e

elsoldemayo said:


> Could be legit. I have 3133 Komandirskies I've never seen elsewhere. Reservations would be I've never seen that dial before. Every Vostok 3133 I've seen has Komandriskie in cursive script and the stylised B. Also the printing under the sub-dials, the indices seems to be a lot cleaner than the parachute and Komandirskie printing.
> Almost as if someone took this dial and added some additional printing and popped it in a different 3133 case. A lot of work to go to which makes me 50/50.
> Any pics of the movement?


Exactly where I am with it. That parachute logo just looks a bit off to me. Certainly not the same as I've seen on others . Same as the komandirskie logo , just not that clean . 
In fact the more I look the more I'm convinced it isn't legit.
Thanks for your input elsoldemayo.


----------



## mike.s

The corrosion might have been from moisture that would get inside the glass. Or I've seen oil from the inside stain things, though not corrode them. I wouldn't worry about it much. I mean, if you are paying premium for authenticity, it's one thing. If you are just buying a nice 2209 with somewhat uncommon dial, it's another.


----------



## dutchassasin

Hmm that's certainly unnusual the 3133 komandirskie. If the price it right snag it up. Just because it has never seen before doesn't mean its not legit. The dial looks certainly like those Italian ones. Perhaps a early dealers sample. Who knows but its certainly a lot of work to fake such a dial.


----------



## mike.s

Kev, it's my understanding that there were no 3133s from Vostok in SU times. Poljot, when it was dying around 2005-2006, sold some or most of the equipment to Chistopol' and the 3133s were made/used there at that time. But that would be Russia, not SU, so I think that dial is fantasy. At least according to my research on Russian forums. 

I might be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. But 3133 is a fairly unique caliber in Poljot's history and I don't think it really traveled outside of 1MChZ in SU times.


----------



## Neruda

Kev and Mike, the Bostok komandirskie with Poljot's 3133 movement was made for the Italian market, imported by a company called Timetrend if I remember correctly in the late 1980s and early 90s, which also imported more regular komandirskies. This raises certain problems which I don't think have been definitively resolved. Was the watch made by Bostok with the Poljot movement, was it made by Poljot using a Bostok case, or was it assembled in Italy using imported parts?

Most of these watches have distinctive casebacks, with an onion dome, and Italian leather straps with CCCP stamped on them. I'd be interested to see if Kev's example have either of these features. But Kev is right, all that I have seen have Komandirskie in script just above the date window at 6 o'clock. Plus the poor quality printing makes the dial very suspect.

There may have been other export operations at this time. Timepeace, which imported the Bostok Desert Storm into the USA, also had a somewhat similar onion dome caseback, and there are others examples which may not have been destined to either Italy or the USA. Never say never with Russian watches, but in this case, I think it unlikely.


----------



## kev80e

Some interesting points gents. As you say never say never with Russian watches. I've taken another look and noticed the parachute , though poorly done is different from any others I've seen. All the others have two unbroken lines each side with the star in the middle weather Soviet era or Russian printed bigger or smaller this is the one detail they all share . This appears to have a bigger star in relation to parachute size and has only 1 solid line. 
I will ask for photos of the rear and movement.


----------



## mike.s

Thanks, Neruda! I'll see what I can find out about these. A small export like you've described wouldn't be unlikely in the late 80s, and we know about other Vostoks going to Italy, specificaly, so a definite maybe, but would be interesting to know where the dial and the rest of the watch was made.


----------



## chien-andalou

dear watchmen, I present you my brown dial amphibian with horizontal stripes through the centre, it has been on my wrist for most of two years now

I've seen the same configuration online since, but also a version with a different bezel and case, as in 2nd pic. So I was wondering...

thanks
Peter


----------



## SennaGTS

Hi guys, some advice please. The hands appear to be correct to me here, but I'm not certain on the crown and case. Thanks for help!


----------



## elsoldemayo

SennaGTS said:


> Hi guys, some advice please. The hands appear to be correct to me here, but I'm not certain on the crown and case. Thanks for help!


I think the watch has been made up of a couple of Kirovskie. The brown dial should have silver numerals, the gold numerals are usually seen with the white/cream dial. You're right about the crown.


----------



## SennaGTS

elsoldemayo said:


> I think the watch has been made up of a couple of Kirovskie. The brown dial should have silver numerals, the gold numerals are usually seen with the white/cream dial. You're right about the crown.


Looks like the numerals were taken from the black and white/cream dial and added do the brown one!


----------



## MattBrace

kev80e said:


> Some interesting points gents. As you say never say never with Russian watches. I've taken another look and noticed the parachute , though poorly done is different from any others I've seen. All the others have two unbroken lines each side with the star in the middle weather Soviet era or Russian printed bigger or smaller this is the one detail they all share . This appears to have a bigger star in relation to parachute size and has only 1 solid line.
> I will ask for photos of the rear and movement.
> View attachment 12370145


Kev, the 3133 your looking at purchasing is a early 90's red star dial as below, the parachute and Komandirskie parts have been poorly printed on at a later date.

Cheers


----------



## cptwalker

Is this moskva legit?


----------



## mroatman

cptwalker said:


> Is this moskva legit?


Looks good to me. Great, actually.


----------



## Straight_time

mroatman said:


> cptwalker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this moskva legit?
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good to me. Great, actually.
Click to expand...

Hasn't it heavily faded? The different shade of color between dial center and outer ring is barely noticeable. :think:

View attachment 12371951


----------



## schnurrp

chien-andalou said:


> dear watchmen, I present you my brown dial amphibian with horizontal stripes through the centre, it has been on my wrist for most of two years now
> 
> I've seen the same configuration online since, but also a version with a different bezel and case, as in 2nd pic. So I was wondering...
> 
> thanks
> Peter


I can only find this dial in the '92 & '93 catalog in the 020 amphibian case with the unusual "dot-dash-dot-dot-dot" and more common "dot-dash" bezel:


----------



## chien-andalou

schnurrp said:


> I can only find this dial in the '92 & '93 catalog in the 020 amphibian case with the unusual "dot-dash-dot-dot-dot" and more common "dot-dash" bezel:


thanks, looks I might have been lucky then.

As for the movement, no worries about it being 'anonymous' -without engraving?

If anyone felt like compiling a 'links to catalogs' thread. There seem to be some working links buried in other threads, but I couldn't find a recent thread that gathers them.

Peter


----------



## Bamboogie

Hi,

I'm looking into a Raketa Time zone watch.

is this one legit?


----------



## Bamboogie

I also found another one
































First one costs 150 €, second about 70 €. Any advice what to get?


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*

QUOTE=Straight_time;43669715]Hasn't it heavily faded? The different shade of color between dial center and outer ring is barely noticeable. :think:

View attachment 12371951









[/QUOTE]

I was thinking it's another dial variation but with different color. You could be right tho

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## mike.s

Raketa Cities (as its commonly called) seems fine to me, both of them. I just got one in chrome and like it more than I expected, actually. Will be wearing it periodically once I find a good strap for it.

BTW, a neat feature of this watch is that the date change is done by pulling on the crown - there's no separate pushbutton for date change.


----------



## schnurrp

mike.s said:


> Raketa Cities (as its commonly called) seems fine to me, both of them. I just got one in chrome and like it more than I expected, actually. Will be wearing it periodically once I find a good strap for it.
> 
> BTW, a neat feature of this watch is that the date change is done by pulling on the crown - there's no separate pushbutton for date change.


Yeah, I like that feature, too.

It's found on all Raketas with date function.


----------



## SennaGTS

Hi guys, what about this Pobeda and Luch? These two dials really stood out to me!

The Pobeda looks to be a more recent release, I also compared it to a similar / the same offering seen on Mark Gordon's website (ussrtime). However, I am interested in other opinions!

I know next to nothing about the Luch though, although I did see one on this month's what are you wearing today!

Pobeda
















Luch


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



Straight_time said:


> Hasn't it heavily faded? The different shade of color between dial center and outer ring is barely noticeable.





cptwalker said:


> I was thinking it's another dial variation but with different color. You could be right tho


At first glance, mine would also appear to be heavily faded. Or maybe two different dial types?









Edit: Could Phil's be the one that has faded? :think:


----------



## cptwalker

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> At first glance, mine would also appear to be heavily faded. Or maybe two different dial types?
> 
> View attachment 12378931
> 
> 
> Edit: Could Phil's be the one that has faded? :think:


It's possible in my opinion. On my example there is no cyrillic letters in the bottom of the flower. Mark Gordon's website also has multiple different moskva flower type dials. The problem though is I've yet to see another one with white numerals and hands. If it is indeed faded it does kinda look nice with white too. I'll just think of it as beautifully aged, like a bottle of wine.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## mroatman

Bamboogie said:


> First one costs 150 €, second about 70 €. Any advice what to get?


The first one, in mint condition with original paperwork, is about as good as it gets. But €150 is nothing to sneeze at.

Ultimately, it's your decision. I think you would be happy with either, and especially happy with both 😜


----------



## mroatman

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



cptwalker said:


> The problem though is I've yet to see another one with white numerals and hands. If it is indeed faded it does kinda look nice with white too.


I think the "white" lume could also be a product of an overly-brigtened photo. This seller's pictures are often overexposed. Unfortunately, it'd be impossible to know for sure until the watch is in your hands.

At the asking price, though, I wouldn't consider it a high-risk purchase.


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> Hi guys, what about this Pobeda and Luch? These two dials really stood out to me!
> The Pobeda looks to be a more recent release, I also compared it to a similar / the same offering seen on Mark Gordon's website (ussrtime). However, I am interested in other opinions!
> I know next to nothing about the Luch though, although I did see one on this month's what are you wearing today!


You're right about the Pobeda. It looks like a 1990s version with late-era ZIM movement. Notice the dial says "Made in Russia" rather than "Made in USSR".

The Luch is one of my favorites and has a very interesting faded dial. Mine has different hands which help with legibility, though I can't be sure if they're original as I haven't seen this model in a catalog.


----------



## SennaGTS

mroatman said:


> You're right about the Pobeda. It looks like a 1990s version with late-era ZIM movement. Notice the dial says "Made in Russia" rather than "Made in USSR".
> 
> The Luch is one of my favorites and has a very interesting faded dial. Mine has different hands which help with legibility, though I can't be sure if they're original as I haven't seen this model in a catalog.


Thank you for the help!

I was just comparing the movements of the Pobeda on Mark Gordon's website and the one I found for sale. Is it possible the one on sale is missing a jewel?

First attachment is Mark's and the second is the one on sale.


----------



## mroatman

SennaGTS said:


> Is it possible the one on sale is missing a jewel?


Yes, indeed, that is possible.


----------



## Chascomm

I don't think that there is missing a jewel in the place indicated. The blurred colour is caused by the swinging if the balance wheel, but if that jewel was missing the pallet lever would wobble too much for the balance to be swinging. That's just my non-expert opinion.


----------



## mariomart

Chascomm said:


> I don't think that there is missing a jewel in the place indicated. The blurred colour is caused by the swinging if the balance wheel, but if that jewel was missing the pallet lever would wobble too much for the balance to be swinging. That's just my non-expert opinion.


Excellent observation, I concur


----------



## svorkoetter

Chascomm said:


> I don't think that there is missing a jewel in the place indicated. The blurred colour is caused by the swinging if the balance wheel, but if that jewel was missing the pallet lever would wobble too much for the balance to be swinging. That's just my non-expert opinion.


Indeed, and if there were a jewel missing there, you'd see an obvious dark hole. I think the discoloration of the jewel is caused by the balance wheel spoke blurring over it in the photo.


----------



## DJW GB

mroatman said:


> You're right about the Pobeda. It looks like a 1990s version with late-era ZIM movement. Notice the dial says "Made in Russia" rather than "Made in USSR".
> 
> The Luch is one of my favorites and has a very interesting faded dial. Mine has different hands which help with legibility, though I can't be sure if they're original as I haven't seen this model in a catalog.
> 
> View attachment 12379029


I got this a while ago and was a bit suspicious of the colour until i saw it on Dashell's site :-! . With a bit of a clean and a new click spring (there so small:-d) away it went and the same hands as Dashell (oops seconds hand is black on mine:-s)

A couple of pic's for reference


----------



## schnurrp

DJW GB said:


> I got this a while ago and was a bit suspicious of the colour until i saw it on Dashell's site :-! . With a bit of a clean and a new click spring (there so small:-d) away it went and the same hands as Dashell (oops seconds hand is black on mine:-s)
> 
> A couple of pic's for reference
> 
> View attachment 12383491
> 
> 
> View attachment 12383493
> 
> 
> View attachment 12383495
> 
> 
> View attachment 12383497


Nothing to complain about with that one that I can see, comrade.

Click springs are very tiny and there are no substitutes.


----------



## Emancipator12

How much of this Komandirskie is "legit" ??

























Thanx in advance...


----------



## Neruda

Emancipator - Looks completely good in my opinion. Russian national colours on the dial, style of caseback, and absence of "made in USSR/Russia, would seem to date it to the transition period, approximately 1992 - 1995.


----------



## mroatman

DJW GB said:


> same hands as Dashiell (oops seconds hand is black on mine:-s)


Yours is as nice as I've ever seen, comrade, and is the only one of the three to have its original crown.

I'm left to conclude that your second hand is original and mine has been painted white.

Nice watch!


----------



## mroatman

What's going on with the case on this one?

VINTAGE WATCH VOSTOK AMPHIBIAN DIVER 200M AMFIBIA | eBay


----------



## mroatman

What on earth do I have here? The crystal is oval-shaped and tilted. The bezel is asymmetrical as well.

Manufacturing flaw or intentional design?


----------



## bpmurray

mroatman said:


> What on earth do I have here? The crystal is oval-shaped and tilted. The bezel is asymmetrical as well.
> 
> Manufacturing flaw or intentional design?


I have to believe you know exactly what this is (I have no idea, but the cat's-eye shape must be intentional), and just wanted to show off your wedding ring. Congrats again!


----------



## mroatman

bpmurray said:


> I have to believe you just wanted to show off your wedding ring. Congrats again!


Ha! Get used to it -- there's gonna be a lot more where that came from 😄

Thanks!


----------



## mroatman

mroatman said:


> What on earth do I have here? The crystal is oval-shaped and tilted. The bezel is asymmetrical as well.
> 
> Manufacturing flaw or intentional design?


On closer inspection, I believe the dial is taken from this watch:









Notice the rectangular layout of the dial, and white/black minute marks in particular.

But the question remains....what the heck do I have? Anyone seen a similar another asymmetrical Poljot case before?

Edit: Wait a second........looks familiar ??

















I'm guessing it is a manufacturing defect after all. Case from (deformed) Chaika 'egg', dial/movement from Poljot 2614.2H, hands from here and there.

:think:


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hi everyone, 

I want to buy a Type-1. Found this one that seems to be in reasonable condition. What do you think? The picture of the movement is not very good unfortunately.. I thought that the hands maybe look wrong for this dial, it seems like this dial would usually have the thin pointy hands but I may be wrong about this.


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I want to buy a Type-1. Found this one that seems to be in reasonable condition. What do you think? The picture of the movement is not very good unfortunately.. I thought that the hands maybe look wrong for this dial, it seems like this dial would usually have the thin pointy hands but I may be wrong about this.


I'm not even close to sorting out the type Is yet and I only notice the obvious things like lumed cathedral hands should have a lumed second hand so I agree, plain solid hands would be better.


----------



## mike.s

This dial came with these hands, I believe (mine is). The second hand, as schnurrp pointed out, is wrong, but hour and minute hands are OK. I'm not an expert, though. The numbers might have been re-lumed. Need a better and clearer shot of the dial without glass. I'm also concerned with weirdness going on around 9 o'clock there. 

Can't see the movement marks well, but the quarter and year look a bit odd. What are they asking for it, if that's not a secret?


----------



## schnurrp

mike.s said:


> This dial came with these hands, I believe (mine is). The second hand, as schnurrp pointed out, is wrong, but hour and minute hands are OK. I'm not an expert, though. The numbers might have been re-lumed. Need a better and clearer shot of the dial without glass. I'm also concerned with weirdness going on around 9 o'clock there.
> 
> Can't see the movement marks well, but the quarter and year look a bit odd. What are they asking for it, if that's not a secret?


It's quit possible, in my opinion, that that dial was not intended to be lumed. Under magnification there is no sign of any residual lume material which is why I think the cathedral hands are incorrect.


----------



## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> I want to buy a Type-1. Found this one that seems to be in reasonable condition. What do you think? The picture of the movement is not very good unfortunately.. I thought that the hands maybe look wrong for this dial, it seems like this dial would usually have the thin pointy hands but I may be wrong about this.


As the conversation above indicates, I think anything goes with Type-1s. Or at least, we don't know enough to confirm one way or another.

I agree with schnurrp that the hands seem a bit out of place (and relumed at that). But I think lumed hands on a non-lumed dial *can* be legitimate (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/factory-53-type-1-q4-1945-a-2907962.html), even if not very common.

The "weirdness" around 9 o'clock just looks like paint flaking up from the dial, typical on these.

Movement, case (lugs), and crown are consistent of a Chistopol Type-1. But it's missing the classic Chistopol Type-1 hands and the excavated crown/barrel wheels. On the plus side, you'd get that likely-original strap which is truly awesome.

I would only buy if the price is good.


----------



## Straight_time

By my humble experience, cathedral hands are ok on dials which have "contour" hour indexes (that is, not black paint filled) as they were meant for _possible_ luming.

Lumed seconds hands are uncommon, I'd say that they can be found on roughly 10% of watches with cathedral hands -I wouldn't raise any yellow card for that.

Movement stamp is as it should be. Unfortunately the balance bridge is a replacement; it's up to the buyer to decide how disturbing this might be.

As Dash pointed out, the dial has paint flakes at 9-10.

Not a bad example overall, but it must be said that Chistopol early post-war productions could also be found in slightly better conditions. 
On the good side, the seller is OK (I bought from him and would recommend) and maybe could be open to proposals. ;-)

PS - and yes, that strap is awesome


----------



## schnurrp

Straight_time said:


> dials which have "contour" hour indexes (that is, not black paint filled) as they were meant for _possible_ luming.


That actually makes a lot of sense, comrade. I'm going to file that away in the very skinny folder of my personal type-1 knowledge.....du jour....subject to change.


----------



## dutchassasin

Just out of curiosity, is this a genuine 300m dial? Usually they are pretty smooth but this one is more like an orange peel


----------



## bpmurray

dutchassasin said:


> Just out of curiosity, is this a genuine 300m dial? Usually they are pretty smooth but this one is more like an orange peel


My first generation has a similar texture, which you can kind of see in this photo:









I think that your pictured one looks correct for a tonneau NVCh-30. The only thing that gives me a little pause is that the numbers and indices were applied with a really heavy hand. At first I thought that your "18 Jewel" designation was way too high, but at least for the generation 2, it appears that it can be really close to the 6, or closer to the center of the dials, as yours is.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f130/vostok-nvch-30-tonneau-amfhibian-300-m-1033306.html - Close to 6
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-amphibia-2209-tonneau-case-300m-nvch-30-revisited-1292402.html - Closer to center of dial
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vost...vy-issue-only-diver-ca-mid-1980s-1087625.html - Closer to center of dial


----------



## mike.s

Please discuss:


----------



## schnurrp

mike.s said:


> Please discuss:
> 
> View attachment 12400663


Kirovskie crab case pointy crown appears to have been replaced and the "sputnik" on the second hand appears to be a little smaller than usual and slightly out of "orbit".


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Kirovskie crab case pointy crown appears to have been replaced and the "sputnik" on the second hand appears to be a little smaller than usual and slightly out of "orbit".


Mine for comparison, also missing correct crown: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=dTBWZ05IS3A5MDRNTU1YT3lYOW9xMnBzUHA1cGFR.


----------



## mike.s

Thanks! 

I've seen a few of those, but don't know much about details other than the crab case and general idea on the hands. Seen them most often with white dials. The size of Sputnik and its orbit might be just an angle, or could be replaced second hand, not sure. I was offered this watch, need want to figure out whether it's worth getting probably too small a case for me to wear and I do wear my collection, including Type-1 and 3017s.


----------



## mroatman

mike.s said:


> I've seen a few of those, but don't know much about details other than the crab case and general idea on the hands. Seen them most often with white dials. The size of Sputnik and its orbit might be just an angle, or could be replaced second hand, not sure. I was offered this watch, need want to figure out whether it's worth getting probably too small a case for me to wear and I do wear my collection, including Type-1 and 3017s.


I actually disagree with esteemed comrade schnurrp in this rare case.

Judging from the shadow in the image, I think the crown _is_ pointed (and therefore correct for this watch). The lighting is just playing tricks on us.

And as for the second hand, I agree that the angle of the photograph is not the best, making it seem as though our dear Sputnik has jumped her track when that may not be the case. The dot does look a little small to me, however. Additional photos would be helpful.

In general, this one does not have the usual signs of a fake (re-plated case, wrong crown, new dial, incorrect hands), so I'd definitely give it some more serious thought before rejecting it outright -- especially if the price is good (~$100 or less). It's a very collectible and desirable watch.


----------



## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Additional photos would be helpful.


Okay, here's one to consider:


----------



## rbsfan

Are these watches legit or franken?

First one: Soviet gold plated mechanical watch Rocket RAKETA College Perpetual CALENDAR | eBay

Second: Vintage RAKETA Perpetual Calendar RUSSIAN Mechanical Watch 2628.H SU Wristwatch


----------



## schnurrp

rbsfan said:


> Are these watches legit or franken?
> 
> First one: Soviet gold plated mechanical watch Rocket RAKETA College Perpetual CALENDAR | eBay
> 
> Second: Vintage RAKETA Perpetual Calendar RUSSIAN Mechanical Watch 2628.H SU Wristwatch


Both look good except the first one doesn't have a movement picture (should be the movement pictured in the second one), and the second one has had its specially curved crystal replaced with a conventional bulging one (this would be a deal breaker for me at that price unless I had a replacement crystal). Actually that price is just too high for a perfect one these days.


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## rbsfan

What do think of this one?

RAKETA Perpetual Calendar RUSSIAN MECHANICAL 2628.H | eBay


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## mike.s

rbsfan, you got PM.


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## mike.s

Guys, I'll probably grab that Sputnik on principle along. Will see how on-orbit it is 

Is it my imagination, or did most of them come with white dials? Black dials weren't generally common in SU. Partially, I think, dud to commonly available hands not being very legible on them, partially because they weren't very popular. Not sure why.


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## Neruda

What do you make of this Komandirskie case, and is the bezel correct? The dial celebrates an anti-aircraft missile academy and should date to about 1995. Many thanks!


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## mroatman

mike.s said:


> Guys, I'll probably grab that Sputnik on principle along. Will see how on-orbit it is
> Is it my imagination, or did most of them come with white dials? Black dials weren't generally common in SU. Partially, I think, dud to commonly available hands not being very legible on them, partially because they weren't very popular. Not sure why.


Actually, now that you mention it, I believe the black dial is only appropriate with nickel-plated (silver) hands. So it looks like schnurrp was right all along -- shocker.

Mine and the catalog:









I hope I didn't lead you astray. It's still a beautiful design, and if it's been lightly frankenized, it was in an effort to preserve the original style.


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## mroatman

Neruda said:


> What do you make of this Komandirskie case, and is the bezel correct? The dial celebrates an anti-aircraft missile academy and should date to about 1995. Many thanks!


Very interesting. It looks like the 063 case type, but the lugs are faceted.... :think:


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## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Actually, now that you mention it, I believe the black dial is only appropriate with nickel-plated (silver) hands. So it looks like schnurrp was right all along -- shocker.
> 
> Mine and the catalog:
> 
> View attachment 12404127
> 
> 
> I hope I didn't lead you astray. It's still a beautiful design, and if it's been lightly frankenized, it was in an effort to preserve the original style.


For me it would depend on what the seller is saying and what price he's asking.

Do you know of another kirovskie or other watch with the correct chrome hand set (minus the second hand, of course). I don't.


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## Neruda

Thanks, Mroatman. The case certainly has similarities to the 063 which you kindly show, but the sweeping crown guard on the right makes the watch strangely asymmetrical. Style-wise the case has something of the early 1980s (my feeling at least) but if so, the dial and caseback are wrong. To me the bezel looks awkward too, but I don't know for sure. I think there's something fraken about this piece, but as you say, it's interesting!


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## dutchassasin

Neruda said:


> Thanks, Mroatman. The case certainly has similarities to the 063 which you kindly show, but the sweeping crown guard on the right makes the watch strangely asymmetrical. Style-wise the case has something of the early 1980s (my feeling at least) but if so, the dial and caseback are wrong. To me the bezel looks awkward too, but I don't know for sure. I think there's something fraken about this piece, but as you say, it's interesting!


Isnt it strange to have a chrome bezel on a Titanium nitride coated case?


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## Neruda

Dutchassasin - I agree completely, but assuming it was intended to have a rotating bezel, what should it have been?


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## dutchassasin

Neruda said:


> Dutchassasin - I agree completely, but assuming it was intended to have a rotating bezel, what should it have been?


Perhap im thinking too simple but I would expect to see the same style of bezel but with the coating.


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## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Do you know of another kirovskie or other watch with the correct chrome hand set (minus the second hand, of course). I don't.


No, I don't. And since the catalog is pretty specific about this (see below), I have to conclude there is only one proper set of hands for this particular Sputnik watch.

*Registration of CHN-667K*
_The dial is black. Numbers, signs, scale and inscriptions_
_On the dial white._
_Arrows are nickel-plated._
_In the rest it is similar to registration ЧН-666К._


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## mroatman

Neruda said:


> The case certainly has similarities to the 063 which you kindly show, but the sweeping crown guard on the right makes the watch strangely asymmetrical.


Whoa, I didn't pick up on the asymmetry of this case before. Wild!

I agree that the bezel should match the case color (here's one possibility).


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## Luis965

Neruda said:


> What do you make of this Komandirskie case, and is the bezel correct? The dial celebrates an anti-aircraft missile academy and should date to about 1995. Many thanks!
> View attachment 12403449
> View attachment 12403451


In the Komandirskie Clasification Case this model appears as unknown, similar to model 67X.





The bezel should have the same color of the case.

Dashiell shows the most known exception of mismatching colors of case and bezel - The Rising Sun.


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## mike.s

mroatman said:


> No, I don't. And since the catalog is pretty specific about this (see below), I have to conclude there is only one proper set of hands for this particular Sputnik watch.
> 
> *Registration of CHN-667K*
> _The dial is black. Numbers, signs, scale and inscriptions_
> _On the dial white._
> _Arrows are nickel-plated._
> _In the rest it is similar to registration ЧН-666К._


Interesting, I thought about it a bit... don't recall seeing Sputniks like this with silver hands, either. Could it be that they've changed year to year to use gold hands?

The seller admits to not knowing much about Kirovskie, same as me. I'm getting another watch from him possibly some others and the price is, indeed, below $100. That's why the question in this thread - just almost complete ignorance of this watch on my end.


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## mroatman

mike.s said:


> Interesting, I thought about it a bit... don't recall seeing Sputniks like this with silver hands, either. Could it be that they've changed year to year to use gold hands?


Yes, I suppose anything is possible. But I don't find it very likely.

I had a quick look at some reliable collections and found nickel-plated hands to be universal. Given these photos, and the fact that these hands weren't found on any other watch (to our collective knowledge), I think that's good evidence there was only one correct configuration for this model.









By the way, in my search, I came across this listing on a Romanian sales website: https://www.olx.ro/oferta/vand-schimb-ceas-mecanic-poljot-sputnik-ID8vEmn.html#e25cd0f172. The crown is wrong, but otherwise this looks like a very nice, original example. The price is about US $117.

Perhaps one of our Romanian comrades could help you (or anyone else interested) snag it. These don't come around much anymore, and when they do, they usually have a fake dial and the wrong hands.


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## mike.s

Thanks again, Dash! 

So, I wasn't crazy in not remembering too many of these hands in silver color. Just so used to them in gold on everything I've seen. Now, not sure if I'll get the watch, since the hands will be a bear to find. OTOH, it's a nice watch. On the third hand, it's a bit small to wear today.


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## mroatman

mike.s said:


> Now, not sure if I'll get the watch, since the hands will be a bear to find. OTOH, it's a nice watch. On the third hand, it's a bit small to wear today.


If you're set on a Sputnik, I'd personally spend a bit more and go for the Romanian one. Otherwise, pass.

Just my opinion, of course


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## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Probably beating a dead horse but notice the arcs of the place of manufacture for the two dials:
> View attachment Capture.JPG


I'm definitely beating a dead horse at this point, but look what I just found online while searching for something else:









So maybe both center dial types are OK after all...


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## Lucky_Luke

The seller sent me some photos of Poljot 29j automatic. I think it is original. What is your opinion?


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## NuttySlack

I'm no expert but I wonder why the dial is in Cryllic whereas the movement and case back the markings are in English. Maybe it's been redialed.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


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## schnurrp

Lucky_Luke said:


> The seller sent me some photos of Poljot 29j automatic. I think it is original. What is your opinion?


Looks like it should be authentic but I couldn't find it in a catalog. There's a similar one in the '70 catalog except it has a bar instead of "12".

The back should be Cyrillic to match the dial.


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## mroatman

The dial looks fine to me (I have the same, below), but I agree that an English case-back on a Cyrillic dial is strange. Mine has the same, and I've seen one other with the same odd configuration. Makes you wonder.


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## chrisP1

Just got this in my hands and have the opportunity to purchase. New to this brand. The only other examples I have found are sealed backs, not exhibition style. What piece of the puzzle am I missing, would love to buy but hate wasting money.









Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## schnurrp

Just a little food for thought until the real experts come along (I don't collect post-soviet). Here's a Poljot catalog from 2002 picturing a few examples of "aviator" style dials with no "Poljot" branding. No chronos like that pictured, unfortunately. This was toward the end of the line for Poljot.

https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipMiLKiGYjcWWJuqD93LXNxtbTGUM9xPDFkbFCIg

For what it's worth, I think it's authentic and very cool.


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## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Just a little food for thought until the real experts come along (I don't collect post-soviet). Here's a Poljot catalog from 2002 picturing a few examples of "aviator" style dials with no "Poljot" branding. No chronos like that pictured, unfortunately. This was toward the end of the line for Poljot.
> 
> https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipMiLKiGYjcWWJuqD93LXNxtbTGUM9xPDFkbFCIg
> 
> For what it's worth, I think it's authentic and very cool.


Stumbled across this: Poljot/Moscow Classic Flugkapitan


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## dutchassasin

Real Mccoy or Golden moustache factory?


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## Neruda

Dutchassasin - as long as there aren't diving helmets, submarines etc frolicking on the back of the watch and a grill left out of the photos, I think it's at least half genuine!

The certificate isn't the typical fake with three coloured stamps, one claiming the watch isn't radioactive! The inside of the crown looks to have the correct three retaining screws. Sterile dial is good with screws in the correct places, but possibly missing a recess hole near 3 o'clock.

However, my understanding is that the 100%l originals date to the 1960s, but the Zlatoust factory did an edition of "civilian" models in the mid-1970s. So while not the golden tache, perhaps not quite the real McCoy either - but check this as I'm not completely certain.


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## Neruda

ChrisP1 - I too think this is genuine. Assuming the strap is original, it should date to shortly before Poljot's collapse in around 2005. Most dials that I've seen have "Chronograph" written in Cyrillic, but I have little doubt that there are English dials like yours. The glass exhibition caseback may have originally come with the watch, but equally may have been an after-market accessory - sometimes both metal and glass casebacks are supplied together.


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## mike.s

Looks fairly real. However, I question the idea of diving watch without second hand. That's just weird.


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## chrisP1

Super excited to have bought this for a song. Thanks everyone

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## mike.s

Have a look here: 191-ЧС ВМФ Водолазом/Navy Diver: A Milestone in Russian Horology - BDWF Forum Index Page

If a "song" was below $500, you got very, very lucky, I think. heck, if it was below $700...


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## dutchassasin

mike.s said:


> Looks fairly real. However, I question the idea of diving watch without second hand. That's just weird.


Ive read on the Russian watch forums that these watches had a bad reputation among the divers for exactly this reason. They had a tendency to stop running in cold waters and you can not quickly see if its running or not.

Still undecided whether or not to pursue, the price is good. It does match up with NHT's watch but the papers are slightly different. The 54-60 papers i found for the serials 8080, 8430 and 8472 are all for the year 68. The 8608 which is for sale also has 54-60 papers but its layout is different than the 3 i mentioned and no 1968 stamp. the small 1975 dated paper could mean it had a service at that date, not manufacture date.



















https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipNg6UKlhDgPzOnIIfrxlTvGxx-w4x4rB6ah90iS

Настоящие водолазные часы ЗЧЗ 191ЧС - Страница 11 - Часовой форум Watch.ru


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## Jeroenskie

Hi everyone!

Just stumbled across this Poljot deluxe automatic for pretty cheap. Just have these pretty bad photos and unfortunately none of the movement but it seems to be in good condition. Do you think the dial and case are original?


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## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi everyone!
> Just stumbled across this Poljot deluxe automatic for pretty cheap. Just have these pretty bad photos and unfortunately none of the movement but it seems to be in good condition. Do you think the dial and case are original?


Yes, looks perfect. The top left lug looks a little bent to me, and there are some small track marks at the center of the dial (probably from the hour hand dragging). But this looks like a nice, original piece with all correct parts.


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## Jeroenskie

Thanks, I bought the watch!

Just another quick question, what do you think about this signal watch? The dial and case look original to me but the hands look a bit weird. It seems as if they have sparkly gold paint on them or something.. What do you think?


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## bpmurray

Jeroenskie said:


> Thanks, I bought the watch!
> 
> Just another quick question, what do you think about this signal watch? The dial and case look original to me but the hands look a bit weird. It seems as if they have sparkly gold paint on them or something.. What do you think?


I think it's a trick of the light. Here are two shots of mine - the wrist shot shows the seconds and alarm hand as "sparkly," while they are perfectly flat on the countertop photo.

View attachment DSC_0782.jpg


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## mroatman

Jeroenskie said:


> Thanks, I bought the watch!
> Just another quick question, what do you think about this signal watch? The dial and case look original to me but the hands look a bit weird. It seems as if they have sparkly gold paint on them or something.. What do you think?


Azbukaua is well-known for taking "artistic liberty" with watch restoration, so I wouldn't put it past him to paint rusty hands gold. Looking at the other photos, it does look like that's what happened to me.

Anyway, the second hand is replaced (should be extra long) and the crowns are not those we typically associate with this model, so I would pass.


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## cptwalker

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



mroatman said:


> I think the "white" lume could also be a product of an overly-brigtened photo. This seller's pictures are often overexposed. Unfortunately, it'd be impossible to know for sure until the watch is in your hands.
> 
> At the asking price, though, I wouldn't consider it a high-risk purchase.


You were right! Here's a wrist shot with the green radium lume 









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## mroatman

*Re: Q&amp;amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?*



cptwalker said:


> You were right! Here's a wrist shot with the green radium lume


Gorgeous watch in perfect condition, congrats!


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## Varyag87

Hello everyone!

While browsing the bay I stumbled on this little watch. However, I'm not quite sure whether its genuine or not, and I can't really tell... There are no shots from inside either.

Does anyone have any ideas regarding its authenticity?
















*USSR Vintage Brown Wostok Vostok Soviet Russian Men's Watch with new strap*

Case size (with crown): 39 mm x 42 mm. Thickness 10 mm ​​


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## mroatman

Varyag87 said:


> Hello everyone!
> While browsing the bay I stumbled on this little watch. However, I'm not quite sure whether its genuine or not, and I can't really tell... There are no shots from inside either.
> Does anyone have any ideas regarding its authenticity?*USSR Vintage Brown Wostok Vostok Soviet Russian Men's Watch with new strap*
> Case size (with crown): 39 mm x 42 mm. Thickness 10 mm ​​


Absolutely authentic and very good condition.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1130...5893712709206786130&oid=113098239036073221216


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## Varyag87

Great catalog!

Thank you


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## mroatman

Varyag87 said:


> Great catalog!
> Thank you


No problem -- welcome to the forum!


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## Varyag87

Am I right in thinking that the crown on this one is not original?


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## mariomart

Varyag87 said:


> Am I right in thinking that the crown on this one is not original?


The Case Type 119 Vostok originally did have a domed crown, so yours is correct and in excellent condition. Yours is model 1190046 as shown in this 1980 catalog.


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## mroatman

Varyag87 said:


> Am I right in thinking that the crown on this one is not original?


Schnurrp recently offered good evidence that both crowns are appropriate. But definitely the round one is OK as per the catalog.


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## Chascomm

This is just a routine thread-split for the health of the forum database. The conversation continues here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699.html


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