# Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar



## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

In case anybody is looking for one of these, this looks pretty decent:

Longines: Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar | eBay

I have exactly the same model and it's a great watch.

Usual disclaimers of course.


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## shtora (Jan 11, 2009)

Fantastic watch! The best I have owned. I had the silver dial version. Being the stupid guy I am, I sold it last month in a state of momentary madness.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

shtora said:


> Fantastic watch! The best I have owned. I had the silver dial version. Being the stupid guy I am, I sold it last month in a state of momentary madness.


So what are you waiting for?







I think the black dial is the nicest version. The high contrast means that the unavoidable reflections from the domed crystal are not significant.

I've just picked up the Flagship version, so I can have my own SPY competition between 2 copies of the same movement.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Just won this auction. Thanks Chris. Report to follow.

This limited edition version also just went for $899 / £590


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Just won this auction. Thanks Chris. Report to follow.
> 
> This limited edition version also just went for $899 / £590


Congratulations, I think that was a pretty good price. I hope you are very pleased with it.

For my taste, the LE version was way over the top. If you must have ss+gold the standard WR100 version looks a lot tidier.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks Chris. Yes, I was happy with the price, can't wait for the postman !

I thought the face on the LE version was very attractive but it would have looked better without the gold, ie with a SS bezel. Also the inscription on the side is very bold. (no offence meant... there's bound to be an owner here somewhere)


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Congratulations on your winning bid.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

ronalddheld said:


> Congratulations on your winning bid.


Thank you ronalddheld, I will post pictures, accuracy report and if necessary adjustment progress when possible.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Beautiful... can't stop looking at it.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Beautiful... can't stop looking at it.


OK, that's the first part done. Next you have to time it, then you have to regulate it! Welcome to the asylum. 

Nice watch, by the way.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Thank you chris. 

Not sure what time source I'm going to settle with. I have a choice: 2 RC clocks and 2 RC watches, Android GPS time app and time web sites such as "time.is" (pictured). I've set the watch by this web site and so far the GPS time agrees with it, but the radio corrected sources seem a little off in comparison. I'll have to keep a record and find out which source is reliably correct. Differences between them mean without doubt one or more of them have small errors.

As soon as I'm certain how many (if any) 0.33 second/month I need to gain or lose I'll open it up and have a go.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Thank you chris.
> 
> Not sure what time source I'm going to settle with. I have a choice: 2 RC clocks and 2 RC watches, Android GPS time app and time web sites such as "time.is" (pictured). I've set the watch by this web site and so far the GPS time agrees with it, but the radio corrected sources seem a little off in comparison. I'll have to keep a record and find out which source is reliably correct. Differences between them mean without doubt one or more of them have small errors.
> 
> As soon as I'm certain how many (if any) 0.33 second/month I need to gain or lose I'll open it up and have a go.


In my experience, given your choice of time references, I'd probably choose one or more of the RC devices, provided that you are certain that they have corrected themselves during the previous night. All that matters is consistency of timing, not absolute indication of the 'right' time. Use the famous Stopwatch Method and after a week or so, the daily fluctuations will be relatively unimportant relative to your watch's variation.

If you have a lot of patience and a bit of understanding, an excellent time source is a cheap GPS receiver connected to a PC to control the PC's clock. It takes a bit of setting up but gives a very stable time source. If you want any hints on this approach let me know.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

chris01 said:


> ... an excellent time source is a cheap GPS receiver connected to a PC to control the PC's clock. It takes a bit of setting up but gives a very stable time source...


|>

I agree wholeheartedly. 
You're never quite sure which reference to trust.

With a setup like that, it removes any doubt.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

I'll add a caveat - don't be in too much of a hurry to get the back off and start regulating. Once you have a reliable measurement routine you should examine the watch's performance under different temperature conditions. There is a considerable variation (by HAQ standards) between, say, daytime-only wear, 24-hour wear, and stored at room temperature. Obviously you need a temperature-controlled oven to do this properly, but the simplest approach is to decide just how you want to wear the watch and just aim to calibrate for best performance under those conditions. You'll then find a noticeable seasonal temperature effect. TC is a brilliant technology, but it really isn't quite good enough for many of us! You have, however, picked the movement that gives you the best opportunity to get a good result.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> an excellent time source is a cheap GPS receiver connected to a PC to control the PC's clock


I'm going to follow this advice (thanks Chris) and use times from an Android GPS app as a reference (the phone is more capable than PC's from just a handful of years ago, plus it is portable and can be made to beep on the second !) Also I've compared different apps and they give comparable results. (shown in offset of phone time in thousandths of a second which varies a little). One app which I can't name as I don't fancy being sued was making up random times, so I assume there are others that can't be relied on. The app I've picked is called "Smart Time" and as far as I can tell in the short time I've used it, seems to work well.

The chart I'll put in a separate posting below will include the other time sources which might prove interesting. I've sold one of the RC watches but there are still 2 clocks, 1 watch, internet and the GPS reference.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Results in seconds of offset to GPS time to the nearest tenth of a second by the stopwatch method.
DATE and TIME = GMT (BST in summer)
GPS = Android GPS app
VHP = Longines Conquest Perpetual V.H.P. 200M (ETA 252.611)
TI = url Time.is
TG = url time.gov
RCU = radio corrected clock upstairs
RCD = radio corrected clock downstairs
RCW = radio corrected watch


DATEGPSVHPTIRCURCDRCW24/04/1317:15SET0.0+0.5+0.4+0.329/04/1322:45+0.5+0.2+0.6+0.2+0.2

Timings have only been running for 125.5 hours and two things have emerged already:
1. VHP is running very fast and needs adjusting now. I make half a second fast in 125.5 hours means a rounded figure of 9 -ve impulses are needed as a coarse first adjustment.
2. I'm amazed at the amount of difference between the other sources. Also it's interesting that they are all running ahead of the GPS time and the interrelationship between them stays consistant to a fifth of a second or so.

I'm not really sure what's going on here or if I can trust the GPS time I'm getting. On the other hand if the offset stays consistent in relation to the RC times then it will still correctly show gain or loss in the Longines which will eventually allow correct adjustment.

The saga continues... this way lies madness 
Table restarted following 9 negative pulses... no more fiddling now until a sensible number of weeks of timings collected.


DATEGPSVHPTITGRCURCDRCW30/04/1322:45SET+0.15+0.50-0.10+0.2507/05/1319:30+0.75+0.25+0.20+0.50+0.20+0.35

:-sclearly did something wrong when attempting adjustment as VHP now needs 10 negative pulses


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Results in seconds of offset to GPS time, with smallest vulgar fraction being one eighth, estimated by counting beats per second.


Good to see you are taking this seriously! You may find the Stopwatch Method the best compromise for accuracy/ease of use:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/methods-determining-accuracy-watch-382752.html
You can also use it to check your GPS against the BBC Greenwich time signal. Even if there is quite a delay in your device presenting the GPS time, you will I hope find that it's a consistent delay.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> You may find the Stopwatch Method the best compromise for accuracy/ease of use:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/methods-determining-accuracy-watch-382752.html


Ha, you're right... stopwatch method is easier and better. I'll redo today's measurements and edit if necessary.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Results weekly should do the job... what do people recommend ?


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Results weekly should do the job... what do people recommend ?


Perfect.
Stick to a weekly routine. If you do daily measurements in between, you'll have to hassle of how to interpret those. It's a lot easier sticking to a fixed interval.

If you're confident with spreadsheets enter the values in a spreadsheet. Perhaps you can make it plot the values in a graph later.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Hans Moleman said:


> Perfect.
> Stick to a weekly routine. If you do daily measurements in between, you'll have to hassle of how to interpret those. It's a lot easier sticking to a fixed interval.
> 
> If you're confident with spreadsheets enter the values in a spreadsheet. Perhaps you can make it plot the values in a graph later.


There's no substitute for a good graph. Here's a current one thats slightly on-topic as it's my recently-acquired Flagship VHP Perp Cal. It shows my first two weeks' timing, with about 3 measurements per day. The blue bars are cumulative variation from zero (RH scale) and the red line is calculated SPY (LH scale). After #24 I decided that it was running close to 20SPY, and I gave it 5 negative impulses. It has been worn only occasionally during this time. It's now running close enough to zero SPY that I can stop messing with it, wear it whenever I feel like it, and see how the warmer weather affects it.

Note that I don't disagree with Hans's suggestion of weekly monitoring. I'm just too impatient!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Chris your second graph results are fantastic and I hope I can achieve something similar, but how did you calculate 20SPY from the first one? 0.5sec over two weeks is 13SPY or if measurements #1 to #24 are over 24 days then that would be 7.6SPY. What am I missing here ?


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Hans Moleman said:


> Perhaps you can make it plot the values in a graph later.


Thanks Hans, I can see the value of a graph in Chris' first bar chart. If you draw a straight line from 0 to 0.5 you can see straight away how consistently his watch is performing and given the same performance after adjustment you can predict it won't stray far from spot on accuracy.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Thanks Hans, I can see the value of a graph in Chris' first bar chart. If you draw a straight line from 0 to 0.5 you can see straight away how consistently his watch is performing and given the same performance after adjustment you can predict it won't stray far from spot on accuracy.


Measuring is hard enough, but interpreting is an art in itself.
Just what is significant, and what is noise?

A well thought through graph is a life saver.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Hans, I just discovered you have the same watch. Did you notice our dials are very slightly different (seconds sub divisions) ?


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Chris your second graph results are fantastic and I hope I can achieve something similar, but how did you calculate 20SPY from the first one? 0.5sec over two weeks is 13SPY or if measurements #1 to #24 are over 24 days then that would be 7.6SPY. What am I missing here ?


Apologies if I have not made this clear enough. I was only trying to show the utility of a simple graph in unscrambling a bunch of small numbers. There is a lot more detail in my spreadsheet that I have not inflicted on you.

I'll explain: the entire graph (0-24 plus 0-16) covers a total elapsed time of 14.1 days. The number of data points per day varies from 2 to 4, for no particular reason.

Point #24 is at 9.2 days. So 0.5s / 9.2 days = 19.9 SPY. The second series is only 4.8 days and the measurement 'noise' is still swamping any real variation.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Ahh great... curiosity satisfied; you're even more impatient than it first appeared 

By the way, noise or not, I'd like to bet you've got it absolutely spot on


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Hans, I just discovered you have the same watch. Did you notice our dials are very slightly different (seconds sub divisions) ?


The subdivided seconds are there to show how bad the second hand hits the markers.


Not a sign of inferior quality in my opinion. One of these things that you only notice after someone points it out.

There are quite a few dial varieties. I don't have the subdivided seconds.

The domed 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 and 11 o'clock markers are quite clever. They always catch the light.

I believe there was yet another dial option... I'll have to dig though the old posts.

Found it:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/my-la...hp-perpetual-calendar-371109.html#post2776719


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

True, my second hand overshoots by 20% mostly. Very easy to judge when you have 1/5 second markers :-(

I didn't know there were variations other than colour... be interested to see the third option if you can find it.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Just found Chris' graph from last year. Fantastic stuff Chris.

Worn half time... gains 0.2 seconds/year ! That's just phenomenal.

As you say, it's great that your watch fell in the middle of the +/- 2 second/year adjustment range. Knowing my luck I'll end up plus or minus a full 2 seconds


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Just found Chris' graph from last year. Fantastic stuff Chris.
> 
> Worn half time... gains 0.2 seconds/year ! That's just phenomenal.
> 
> As you say, it's great that your watch fell in the middle of the +/- 2 second/year adjustment range. Knowing my luck I'll end up plus or minus a full 2 seconds


Thanks!

At present the Conquest is being used as an intermediate timer between a pendulum clock and my PC/GPS, that are in separate rooms. I need the Longines' rate to be as constant as possible so I'm keeping it at the bottom of a slightly warm cupboard. Its current rate is +5.5 SPY. If I managed the worn/unworn states carefully then, as Hans Moleman has already pointed out, I could quite easily keep it within +/-1 SPY. If you own more than one watch then, however good the TC, you have to work quite hard to get the wearing pattern just right. With only one watch you can regulate for a fixed pattern, allowing for seasonal temperature changes to get a low annual variation. I have a Sinn 856 automatic that (provided I remember to keep it well wound) I can keep within +/-2 sec/day just by choice of overnight resting orientation.

Further reports on the Flagship when the graph has smoothed out a bit. At the moment it's looking like the UK economy - just bouncing along the bottom with no clear trend.

I'm sure I didn't suffer from OCD (Obsessive Chronometric Disorder) before I bought my first VHP in 1986!


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

chris01 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> At present the Conquest is being used as an intermediate timer between a pendulum clock and my PC/GPS, that are in separate rooms. I need the Longines' rate to be as constant as possible so I'm keeping it at the bottom of a slightly warm cupboard. Its current rate is +5.5 SPY. If I managed the worn/unworn states carefully then, as Hans Moleman has already pointed out, I could quite easily keep it within +/-1 SPY. If you own more than one watch then, however good the TC, you have to work quite hard to get the wearing pattern just right. With only one watch you can regulate for a fixed pattern, allowing for seasonal temperature changes to get a low annual variation. I have a Sinn 856 automatic that (provided I remember to keep it well wound) I can keep within +/-2 sec/day just by choice of overnight resting orientation.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the suggestion!
I've put NTP on my EEEPC so that it too can benefit from the perfect time on the PC.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Here's another one, the older WR100 model this time. Looks in need of a polish, but I love the blue dial.

LONGINES Mens VHP Conquest Perpetual Calendar Watch | eBay


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

"Starting to lose a little time" the seller indicates that this may be the battery running down. I doubt that very much. Four second jumps indicate the battery is on its last legs and it should still keep good time. Starting to run slow might mean it really need a service and more importantly fresh lubrication. There seem to be a lot of lubrication points in the ETA 252.611 and probably in this movement as well.

Mine is running way too fast by the way !


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> "Starting to lose a little time" the seller indicates that this may be the battery running down. I doubt that very much. Four second jumps indicate the battery is on its last legs and it should still keep good time. Starting to run slow might mean it really need a service and more importantly fresh lubrication. There seem to be a lot of lubrication points in the ETA 252.611 and probably in this movement as well.


You're probably quite correct. I've not yet had a Perp Cal battery run down, but my old VHP went through four 5-year batteries with no sudden rate changes. However, I wouldn't expect a gradual slowing as you'd expect in a mechanical watch. Without any expert knowledge, I would have thought that an occasional failure to advance the second hand is more likely. There are experts around here who may be able to assist.



c_malc said:


> Mine is running way too fast by the way !


This is not a problem, just an opportunity to explore your new watch. 

I have found with two PC models that they were running way too fast after 10-12 years of (unadjusted) life, one at +48 and the other at +20 SPY. The third one came with a new movement, and after 2 years it's too early to comment.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> an occasional failure to advance the second hand is more likely


Ahhhh of course, I hadn't thought of that! The final output from the electronic side of the ETA 252.611 is a series of pulses; one every second. The only way the watch could run slowly from lack of servicing is exactly what you suggest. The system is in effect digital despite having an analogue display.

And... yes.. hate to admit it but it will be more fun having to adjust it myself than it being already optimised


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

#16 page 2 updated


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## Sabresoft (Dec 1, 2010)

My Maurice Lacroix Miros Diver sped up significantly as the battery reached the end of its life. It was heading for 32 SPY after running for about six months at less than 12 SPY (I think that it sat in inventory for quite a while, and the vendor obviously didn't put a fresh battery in). At the very end (probably in the last hour or so) it actually gained several hours. I doubt that the crystal vibrated any differently, but I suspect that the electronics counting the frequency must have gone weird as the cell died.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Results in seconds of offset to GPS time to the nearest tenth of a second by the stopwatch method.
> DATE and TIME = GMT (BST in summer)
> GPS = Android GPS app
> VHP = Longines Conquest Perpetual V.H.P. 200M (ETA 252.611)
> ...


I think it's way too early to start regulating, particularly as it's not the easiest of jobs. After only one measurement in 5 days (unless you have done others), with a still uncertain reference clock, you could be making unnecessary work for yourself. If you can get an accurate rate you should find that one adjustment will get you very close to "perfection". But don't panic: +35 SPY is not unreasonable for a 10-year old VHP.

I'd suggest at least daily measurements so that you can spot and ignore any irregular results.

Are you aware of the regulating procedure for this movement? It's a bit of a fiddle and I strongly recommend that you don't try it without a jig to manage the power to the watch. Here's a quote and a link from my first thread on the VHP Perp:

The ETA 252.611 movement is a problem because of the large CR2016 lithium battery that has to be removed to reach the +/- adjustment contacts. Here I have to acknowledge *vizi*'s brilliant shirt button jig: Longines VHP accuracy
I used a 19.5 mm button, with a small nylon cable tie to clamp it in place; this avoids unnecessary strain on the battery clips. As I had already made the jig for an earlier VHP, the adjustment only took a few minutes.

Here's another useful post: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/third-hand-eta-thermolines-91075.html
This an excellent item if you can find one. They appear occasionally on US eBay, but I found one in the UK under a different name: ETIC No. 118.380. It's slightly better than the button!


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Sabresoft said:


> My Maurice Lacroix Miros Diver sped up significantly as the battery reached the end of its life. It was heading for 32 SPY after running for about six months at less than 12 SPY (I think that it sat in inventory for quite a while, and the vendor obviously didn't put a fresh battery in). At the very end (probably in the last hour or so) it actually gained several hours. I doubt that the crystal vibrated any differently, but I suspect that the electronics counting the frequency must have gone weird as the cell died.


A good point. If you aren't certain that the battery is OK it would be worth changing it before spending too much time on measurement and regulation.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Thank your for the advice Chris and Sabresoft. I have been making daily checks and it is consistently running fast. The reason for a *very early* intervention is to get a button jig made and have a go at the procedure while also attempting to get the watch running somewhere within a couple of impulses of optimal (It's just too annoying having it running worse than a £10 cheapy, especially as it's the only quality watch I own, and I love it, so it gets a lot of wrist time)

I'm informed the Battery is new Sabresoft, but as I don't have a receipt I'll be replacing it in any case.

That Bulova Movement Holder is awesome ! I'm putting a search in eBay right now.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Thank your for the advice Chris and Sabresoft. I have been making daily checks and it is consistently running fast. The reason for a *very early* intervention is to get a button jig made and have a go at the procedure while also attempting to get the watch running somewhere within a couple of impulses of optimal (It's just too annoying having it running worse than a £10 cheapy, especially as it's the only quality watch I own, and I love it, so it gets a lot of wrist time)
> 
> I'm informed the Battery is new Sabresoft, but as I don't have a receipt I'll be replacing it in any case.
> 
> That Bulova Movement Holder is awesome ! I'm putting a search in eBay right now.


I didn't really think that I would stop you opening the back.









A suggestion for the button jig - don't use the watch's CR2016 cell, as it's not easy to connect wires, it's too easy to short it, and you don't want to run it down. I found a spare CR123A 3v lithium and this was much easier and safer.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> don't use the watch's CR2016 cell


Didn't see your warning in time Chris but I did use a large spare 3V Lithium coin cell, mainly because I soldered a wire to the positive side. I've heard Lithium cells can explode if shorted so I was *very* careful. Anyway.. job done (really fiddly), watch seems fine, table on message #16 page 2 updated.

After a few days I *will* cough up to "no change" or "going even faster" etc if it turns out I've made a town-halls of the job


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Damn and blast, failed miserably (see #16, page 2). Ordered some 20mm x 3mm cast acrylic discs to make a proper "button" for next attempt. Will drill and thread for tiny bolts as precisely adjustable contacts.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> I'm not really sure what's going on here or if I can trust the GPS time I'm getting. On the other hand if the offset stays consistent in relation to the RC times then it will still correctly show gain or loss in the Longines which will eventually allow correct adjustment.
> 
> The saga continues... this way lies madness
> Table restarted following 9 negative pulses... no more fiddling now until a sensible number of weeks of timings collected.
> ...


I have two possible explanations:

1. Your timing reference is so inaccurate that you can't measure a difference of 40 SPY (10 pulses)

2. More likely, I think, is that your adjustment procedure is not exactly to the book and you have in fact made no change.

If you're following section 7 in the ETA Technical Document you may not get a result. Here's a routine that has worked perfectly for me on 3 VHPs.

12-steps instruction guide for calibration of the VHP Perpetual Calendar:
1. Remove the battery (leave the crown at position 1 - neutral).
2. Connect needles to the '+' and '-' terminals.
3. Connect the 3V external power supply to the wires that are soldered to these needles.
4. Push the crown to position 0 then release it back to position 1 - that action is needed to switch the watch on - then wait for the date ring to complete its turn.
5. Pull the crown to position 3.
6. With one more needle connected to the '+' of the external power supply; tap the 'C-' or 'C+'terminal X times. (The direction and the number of pulses depend on the current rate of the watch.)
7. Push the crown into position 1.
8. Wait 5 seconds.
9. Disconnect power (remove the needles).
10. Insert the battery and close the watch.
11. Push the crown to position 0 to switch the watch on. (The seconds-hand will start to run.)
12. Set time as you would normally do.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> I have two possible explanations:
> 
> 1. Your timing reference is so inaccurate that you can't measure a difference of 40 SPY (10 pulses)
> 
> 2. More likely, I think, is that your adjustment procedure is not exactly to the book and you have in fact made no change.


Thanks Chris,

I followed the development here of the 12 step method to it's conclusion and used the final instructions you quoted. I'm sure the setting was unchanged because one of two things happened: either my button did not supply a reliable 3V or I made a mistake with one of the 12 steps.

It's very unlikely that my GPS reference would produce a second measurement so consistent with the first by chance; over different measurement periods both results were within about 10% of each other ( 9 or 10 impulses too fast) and it's quite clear that the VHP is gaining against *all* sources, plus the relationship of the GPS v. all other sources as a group is also consistent.

I'll produce a (much) higher quality button and follow the 12 steps faithfully as soon as my 20mm discs arrive.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

20mm discs have arrived. (search for 200918230889 on eBay) from Nest Plastics, see address on picture. £7.95 for 10. Picture of "button" to follow...eventually.
Measured diameter of one sample ranged from 19.6 to 19.8mm which is ideally matched to the measured diameter of the battery.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> 20mm discs have arrived. (search for 200918230889 on eBay) from Nest Plastics, see address on picture. £7.95 for 10. Picture of "button" to follow...eventually.
> Measured diameter of one sample ranged from 19.6 to 19.8mm which is ideally matched to the measured diameter of the battery.


This is getting serious! You are obviously going to make a very professional tool that, with a bit of luck, you will only ever use once. I won't show a picture of my effort as it's embarassingly crude. I think it's a good idea to make the disc an easy fit in the battery clips, to avoid straining them. I used a small nylon cable tie around the watch to keep everything in place during the calibration. Once you've finished you will need another VHP watch to justify all this effort!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> I won't show a picture of my effort as it's embarassingly crude.


Err..same here; my first effort was a polygon, roughly trimmed with scissors from some thin flexible plastic, adorned with splodges of solder - absolutely appalling.

Good tip about not going for a tight fit. Don't want the battery holder losing it's grip !

... and yes, wouldn't say no to a nice Flagship.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Really like this version ! Railway track minutes/seconds and all roman... classic.

The LONGINES & flying hour-glass looks superb in this setting.

My warped sense of humour would cause a grin or two on appreciating that it's a "sleeper"; like a vintage car with a drag strip engine.

Picture from timezone


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Really like this version ! Railway track minutes/seconds and all roman... classic.
> 
> The LONGINES & flying hour-glass looks superb in this setting.
> 
> ...


Almost identical to mine, except for the detail at 3 o'clock. Perhaps mine is a smaller diameter (35.5mm). Here's a photo (not mine) of my watch:


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> Perhaps mine is a smaller diameter (35.5mm).


That's a beauty Chris. These watches, IMHO make some of the huge beasts of today's fashion look a little overblown. According to the position of the date window (2.5mm wide?) which is only about 1mm further inboard, the slightly larger model must be about 37.5 or perhaps 38mm


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)




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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Very neat job! You could probably sell a few of those here. I wonder how many forum members are delaying adjusting their watches until they have grown a third hand.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Going to look a real twerp if I've failed to make an approximate adjustment this time... "time will tell":


DateGPSVHPRCWRCURCDTITG10/05/201315:00SET+0.20+0.50-0.65+0.25+0.10


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> Very neat job! You could probably sell a few of those here. I wonder how many forum members are delaying adjusting their watches until they have grown a third hand.


Thanks very much Chris. I think if I made some more they would be neater... they are a bit of a sod to make without a pillar-drill or vice (spoiled a first attempt).


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Going to look a real twerp if I've failed to make an approximate adjustment this time... "time will tell":
> 
> 
> DateGPSVHPRCWRCURCDTITG10/05/201315:00SET+0.20+0.50-0.65+0.25+0.10


I don't think that the use of "approximate" has any place in this forum.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> I don't think that the use of "approximate" has any place in this forum.


The hilarious thing is, someone asked what I was doing with my stopwatch today and straight away I knew I was on a sticky wicket. As soon as I started talking about radio corrected clocks being fractions of a second out I got the raised eyebrows look.

Anyway apologies for using that inappropriate word... bit like saying Macbeth to an actor !


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> The hilarious thing is, someone asked what I was doing with my stopwatch today and straight away I knew I was on a sticky wicket. As soon as I started talking about radio corrected clocks being fractions of a second out I got the raised eyebrows look.
> 
> Anyway apologies for using that inappropriate word... bit like saying Macbeth to an actor !


My third hand is coming along just fine.


I like the clear button. I was wondering why it needed to be clear, but great to see it sitting correctly.
The next step is contacts over the C+ and C- as well.

The needle stabbing onto these points isn't very reliable.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Hans Moleman said:


> My third hand is coming along just fine.
> 
> 
> I like the clear button. I was wondering why it needed to be clear, but great to see it sitting correctly.
> ...


That's a great idea Hans but the connectors would probably have to be sprung otherwise it would be too difficult to get all connectors to touch at the same time reliably. Also C+ and C- are intimidatingly small targets for a hand made item. I struggle to "stab" even with a loupe. Maybe after mulling it over one of us will come up with a plan for this.

It's great that the transparent acrylic can be seen to be in the right place, but the main reason for choosing transparent was the ease of marking out before drilling by placing it over a 1:1 scale print of the movement.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Hmmm... perhaps the sprung bars used to retain leather watch straps could be used, press fit through small drillings ?

Or possibly better still would be simply to drill tiny holes directly over C+ and C- that due to the acrylic being relatively thick at 3mm would easily guide a needle to it's target.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Hmmm... perhaps the sprung bars used to retain leather watch straps could be used, press fit through small drillings ?
> 
> Or possibly better still would be simply to drill tiny holes directly over C+ and C- that due to the acrylic being relatively thick at 3mm would easily guide a needle to it's target.


Clear to drill the holes at the right spot. Fair enough.

Yes, it all looks deceptively large in your pictures. Hard enough to hit the points, let alone hit them the right number of times.

My cradle used power supply needles that I pushed through a bit of soft rubber tube. It made them easy to position.

Perhaps there is something like soft acrylic? Push the needles though it without holding them too tightly?

Soft and clear acrylic? But firm enough to sit tightly in the battery holder.
How's that for a wish list?


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

I used a long (10cm) sewing needle, with the wire soldered through the eye. With a magnifying glass held in the other hand, it gives good control (if you don't have too many glasses of wine beforehand) and makes a good contact with the pad. Problem is that the pads get covered with tiny pits. Some neat little spring-loaded plungers would be better!


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

chris01 said:


> I used a long (10cm) sewing needle, with the wire soldered through the eye. With a magnifying glass held in the other hand, it gives good control (if you don't have too many glasses of wine beforehand) and makes a good contact with the pad. Problem is that the pads get covered with tiny pits. Some neat little spring-loaded plungers would be better!


Have a look at George's pads:










Mine are probably worse. It must have suffered a lot of stabbings.

I will have a look at some clear rubber that must be suitable for this.
My neighbors will will frown even more at my antics.
Looking intently at their garden hose and mumbling something about milliseconds!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> I used a long (10cm) sewing needle, with the wire soldered through the eye. With a magnifying glass held in the other hand, it gives good control (if you don't have too many glasses of wine beforehand) and makes a good contact with the pad. Problem is that the pads get covered with tiny pits. Some neat little spring-loaded plungers would be better!


There are ball-point needles, designed for sewing knitted fabrics without cutting. One of these would probably do no damage.

So far I've been trying to use a soldered length at the end of my wire. (Maybe this is why I didn't succeed last time)


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Hans Moleman said:


> Have a look at George's pads:
> 
> Mine are probably worse. It must have suffered a lot of stabbings.
> 
> ...


I seem to remember that it took quite a while before a reliable calibration procedure was established by George and others. I guess that there was a lot of failed stabbing going on.

BTW, it's 3 weeks since I adjusted my Flagship and I have left it unworn at ambient temperature. Its variation has been up and down a bit, but by this morning it had gained a total of 5 milliseconds. I hardly dare to wear it!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

c_malc said:


> Going to look a real twerp if I've failed to make an approximate adjustment this time... "time will tell":
> 
> 
> DateGPSVHPRCWRCURCDTITG10/05/201315:00SET+0.20+0.50-0.65+0.25+0.10


Tried a video check, but with the equipment I have the most accurate I can say is VHP is set to tick off the seconds one frame early at 30fps. At least I'll have this to refer to if it's similar next week.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Idea to semi-automate the "stabbing" process has been suggested to me:

Two spring steel or brass strips are attached to the disc, fastened at one end only. The other ends hover over C+ and C- as they are bent up slightly so that they can be tapped down and spring back up again. These raised ends are attached to contact pins and the fastened ends are soldered to the power supply +ve. Tapping these springs would be a lot easier and give more positive feedback than struggling to see what you're doing with a needle.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Idea to semi-automate the "stabbing" process has been suggested to me:
> 
> Two spring steel or brass strips are attached to the disc, fastened at one end only. The other ends hover over C+ and C- as they are bent up slightly so that they can be tapped down and spring back up again. These raised ends are attached to contact pins and the fastened ends are soldered to the power supply +ve. Tapping these springs would be a lot easier and give more positive feedback than struggling to see what you're doing with a needle.


I'd rather do everything away from the watch.
Connect the watch and do the procedure at the other end with proper switches.

There are clear rubber doorstops. You need to cut that to size.

You can also buy clear rubber silicone sealant from the do-it-yourself shop.
I'd like to make battery out of silicone.

Good fun having a think about it. Especially when you don't need it right now.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Hans Moleman said:


> I'd rather do everything away from the watch.
> Connect the watch and do the procedure at the other end with proper switches.
> 
> There are clear rubber doorstops. You need to cut that to size.
> ...


I do agree with you: a semi-rigid 'plug' that is clamped to the watch before power is applied would be a superior solution. However, it's possible to overengineer what is a basically trivial process. I have had three VHP PCs and only had to do three operations. Anyway, good luck to c_malc with what is clearly becoming an obsession! In the context of this forum that is a compliment.

If somebody wants a useful project then please find out how to adjust the B79 movement in the current Breitling Aerospace. I mean, really find out, not just assuming or guessing.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

chris01 said:


> ... not just assuming or guessing ...




It has been known to happen!

I don't have one.
Cool machines. Shame they can't be calibrated.

My method of determining the rate depends on stepper motor noise. I expect some noise every second.
But I believe the minute hand moves every 20 seconds?
My machine could pick those up.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> If somebody wants a useful project then please find out how to adjust the B79 movement in the current Breitling Aerospace. I mean, really find out, not just assuming or guessing.


Chris, this is the Swiss ETA url for that movement. Tech documents not available yet, though may appear at some point.

EDIT: reading some more, that movement may not be quite up to date (E10.451 ?), but it looks so similar I'd bet the calibration instructions would be the same... if anyone can find them.

EDIT2:

In this picture there are little gold disc contact points *all over the place* but just to the right of "0.33 S/MONTH" is *C-* and immediately below it is *C+*

I know this doesn't have to work the same way as the 12 step method and also that you don't want guesswork... but it must be a decent clue. I realise this doesn't answer your question properly, but I don't think the information is available to be found on the net, which only leaves contacting Breitling directly.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Yes, thanks Hans & c_malc. I have already made several attempts using guesses for the procedure, but nothing has worked. Unfortunately ETA haven't published the docs for this movement. It may be just a matter of knowing the right sequence, or possibly Breitling service have to connect some external device to program the adjustment. Interesting to note that the two contacts are labelled C+ and C (not C-).

My watch runs at -0.5 SPY if worn daily, but -6 SPY if unworn. One +4 SPY impulse would allow me to wear it only part time!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> Interesting to note that the two contacts are labelled C+ and C (not C-).


That's amazing. I saw a "*C-*" but on looking again and zooming in, it's clearly just a "*C*", as you say.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Are there 2 batteries in there on top of one another, or does this movement run off 1.55V ?? If so perhaps it needs a 3V pulse for programming... too risky to try that though without confirmation.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Are there 2 batteries in there on top of one another, or does this movement run off 1.55V ?? If so perhaps it needs a 3V pulse for programming... too risky to try that though without confirmation.


There's only one cell, and I just used the battery in place with a single probe wire. I wouldn't be brave/dumb enough to try 3V.

I haven't asked but I doubt that Breitling would be prepared to give the watch a single +1 and reseal it. They seem to offer service only on their terms, meaning full recalibration on their machine, which isn't the same as my wrist and my home. I might ask them at the time it needs a new battery.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

chris01 said:


> ... I wouldn't be brave/dumb enough to try 3V. ...


I expect something more exotic like 'insert battery while crown is in position 3'.

A strong stomach is required if you're willing to try that for the sake of 4 sec/year!


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

chris01 said:


> There's only one cell, and I just used the battery in place with a single probe wire. I wouldn't be brave/dumb enough to try 3V.
> 
> I haven't asked but I doubt that Breitling would be prepared to give the watch a single +1 and reseal it. They seem to offer service only on their terms, meaning full recalibration on their machine, which isn't the same as my wrist and my home. I might ask them at the time it needs a new battery.


Breitling's regulation is all done by machine. The machine will do a +/- as it sees fit. No human intervention is present. The service center would not even know what you meant by +1


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Eeeb said:


> Breitling's regulation is all done by machine. The machine will do a +/- as it sees fit. No human intervention is present. The service center would not even know what you meant by +1


That's about what I suspected. So I'll just have to wait for crystal ageing to have a measurable effect!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Home made button is working. Results (daily) for the first few days are looking like I now need one or two impulses on C+

Looking at the graph below, do you guys who've done this before reckon a month would be long enough to get a recognisable slope before making the final adjustment ?

Also, it seemed to take 4 days to settle down following adjustment, but I think that might have been me learning an exactly repeated method of measurement.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Home made button is working. Results for the first few days are looking like I now need one or two impulses on C+
> 
> Looking at the graph below, do you guys who've done this before reckon a month would be long enough to get a recognisable slope before making the final adjustment ?
> 
> ...


You're getting close! Good work.

You could be right there with the settling down period.
The crystal takes a while to get into the swing of things. A real shame for us that the battery has to come out.

So, you've got a week of consistent measurements. That should be enough for more adjustments. 
I don't think they will be the final adjustments though. I guess you'll need a few more tweaks.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks Hans. So you must have seen initially odd results for a few days following adjustment yourself. 

If I discount the first four or five days though it makes a big difference (changing adjustment to close to 3 +ve impulses). I'll extend the graph for another couple of weeks at least to make sure what looks like a very consistent slope following May 20th continues. If it does, I'll adjust according to that, ignoring results prior to that date.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Thanks Hans. So you must have seen initially odd results for a few days following adjustment yourself.
> 
> If I discount the first four or five days though it makes a big difference (changing adjustment to close to 3 +ve impulses). I'll extend the graph for another couple of weeks at least to make sure what looks like a very consistent slope following May 20th continues. If it does, I'll adjust according to that, ignoring results prior to that date.


Those first few days you can easily ignore. I do remember a settling down period.
I calibrated my watch and then had it pressure tested. When it came back it was way off again.
Obviously, I thought my watch maker fiddled with it!
Whereas, the only thing he did was take the battery out. Things settled down after a few days.
Fortunately I did not start a fuss.

And I do remember reading about it.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Hans Moleman said:


> Those first few days you can easily ignore. I do remember a settling down period.
> I calibrated my watch and then had it pressure tested. When it came back it was way off again.
> Obviously, I thought my watch maker fiddled with it!
> Whereas, the only thing he did was take the battery out. Things settled down after a few days.
> ...


Thanks again Hans.

This is very useful information. It will save people who are trying to quickly adjust these movements from a lot of head scratching and frustration. The message is: Don't even start to make measurements or adjustments until the battery has been replaced for 5 days.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Thanks again Hans.
> 
> This is very useful information. It will save people who are trying to quickly adjust these movements from a lot of head scratching and frustration. The message is: Don't even start to make measurements or adjustments until the battery has been replaced for 5 days.


Yes, I agree with all the recent comments. I always find that it's about a week before the annual rate starts to settle.

May I suggest that, as well as the actual daily variation, you graph the calculated SPY value, as this smooths out the display once you have a few measurements. The daily data is subject to all the swings caused by the watch, the measurement technique, and the reference source. Once you are using "(total variation) / (no of days) x 365" the true rate is easier to read. Then just divide the SPY by 4 to get the correction required.

To illustrate my point, here's my Flagship since its first regulation from 20 SPY. The blue bars are actual variation, one measurement per day, the red line is SPY.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> Yes, I agree with all the recent comments. I always find that it's about a week before the annual rate starts to settle.
> 
> May I suggest that, as well as the actual daily variation, you graph the calculated SPY value, as this smooths out the display once you have a few measurements. The daily data is subject to all the swings caused by the watch, the measurement technique, and the reference source.


I'll make a graph like yours Chris following final adjustment. As time goes by the scale on my graph will compress and naturally smooth out the bumps revealing something close to a straight gradient which will dictate what the adjustment should be. I'm now thinking a month from the 20th May should be enough. Let's hope the correction divides nicely by 0.33s/m !


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

I like to see a quartz crystal as a 2D version of a bell.
You hit it and it makes a sound.

You can hit it with a rubber mallet, a wooden stick or a hammer. All sound differently.
All produce a different frequency mix.

But after a few seconds you can't tell what you have hit it with. The bell's own frequency has taken over.

I guess the quartz crystal behaves similarly. Switching it on, forces on it a multitude of frequencies that need to die down. 

And if you want a really really clean frequency to work with, you need to wait longer.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

This data still looks a little ragged due to the short time scale but I'm thinking of going with 2 +ve impulses based on guestimate gradient placed in the middle of the variations from May 18 to now.

What does the team think ?


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> This data still looks a little ragged due to the short time scale but I'm thinking of going with 2 +ve impulses based on guestimate gradient placed in the middle of the variations from May 18 to now.
> 
> What does the team think ?
> 
> View attachment 1110329


0.4 seconds loss in 15 days is equivalent with 10 seconds per year.
Two taps sounds fair.
Are you still wearing the watch while you're working out its rate?


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Hans Moleman said:


> 0.4 seconds loss in 15 days is equivalent with 10 seconds per year.
> Two taps sounds fair.
> Are you still wearing the watch while you're working out its rate?


Yes Hans, I occasionally have to take it off due to working where it could be damaged and I remove it at night, but other than that I intend to wear it every day ad infinitum. I really like it and I don't have other great watches to choose from. The wear pattern it is being set under will continue, so I should theoretically be able to get the best performance possible from it.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Yes Hans, I occasionally have to take it off due to working where it could be damaged and I remove it at night, but other than that I intend to wear it every day ad infinitum. I really like it and I don't have other great watches to choose from. The wear pattern it is being set under will continue, so I should theoretically be able to get the best performance possible from it.


Good to see you've done your homework!


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

I'll join Hans in agreeing that +2 should be a useful adjustment. With any luck, you will have to wait a month before you can see any + or - trend. 

You are giving yourself the best chance of "perfection" by deciding on a consistent wear pattern. Considering that this an excellent TC movement, there is still a significant difference in variation rate with 'worn', 'unworn', etc. Once you get down to a steady (but non-zero) rate you may be able to refine it by wearing it a bit more or less. Although I am not in the habit of wearing a watch at night, this is the only one I have that is smooth and rounded enough to prevent damage to myself, to my wife, or the watch. Don't try this with an Aerospace!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> you may be able to refine it by wearing it a bit more or less.


This really made me smile. It's the highest level... the gold standard of HAQ. It's also perhaps the single aspect of watch-mania that if explained to the uninterested would leave the maximum number of mouths agape and eyebrows raised.

I've set it to time.gov but will continue to monitor using GPS (see separate post)


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

There's some on Yahoo Japan. http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?auccat=2084041628&p=vhp&tab_ex=commerce&ei=euc-jp

I use Purchasing Japanese items and delivering straight to your door!?FROM JAPAN LIMITED. Excellent service - stopped me buying from a scam shop last week.

Use Chrome for automatic translation, unless you speak Japanese.


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## Sabresoft (Dec 1, 2010)

Hans Moleman said:


> I like to see a quartz crystal as a 2D version of a bell.
> You hit it and it makes a sound.
> 
> You can hit it with a rubber mallet, a wooden stick or a hammer. All sound differently.
> ...


Actually the early variability is probably more to do with the impact of measurement errors than crystal behaviour. Each reading that you take (i.e. the initial offset and then the subsequent daily readings) will have measurement errors. For example when I do my readings with the stopwatch method I find that I see a standard deviation of about 0.01 to 0.02 seconds in the average of 6 readings that I do (on a good day). Assuming that to be a reasonable measure of the potential error in each of my readings, lets look at three scenarios:

Scenario 1 - initial offset read on day 0 followed by another reading on day 1

Each reading can be off by as much as say plus or minus 0.01 seconds, so the potential error in the true offset at day 1 could be as much as 0.02 seconds. Translating that to SPY indicates a variability of as much as 365 x 0.02 = 7.3 seconds.

Scenario 2 - reading at 10 days, same error range

Impact on SPY is 365 x 0.02 / 10 = 0.73 seconds

Scenario 3 - reading at 365 days, same error range

Impact on Spy is 0.02 seconds

This demonstrates why the early readings seem to be so erratic. I find in my testing that I don't see this settle down until at least 2-3 months into my test.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> This really made me smile. It's the highest level... the gold standard of HAQ. It's also perhaps the single aspect of watch-mania that if explained to the uninterested would leave the maximum number of mouths agape and eyebrows raised.
> 
> I've set it to time.gov but will continue to monitor using GPS (see separate post)


Well it didn't make me smile. The scary part is that I made that remark without feeling the need for a smiley face. Get out now, while you're still relatively sane!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> Well it didn't make me smile. The scary part is that I made that remark without feeling the need for a smiley face. Get out now, while you're still relatively sane!


Noooo, this is all too attractive to my obsessive "search for perfection" personality. I'm on the slippery slope for the full trip to the bottom.

Too soon to say really but it seems 2 positive impulses were correct, so I'm looking forward to a little wearing modulation if necessary, using your excellent work as a guide.

*Graph by Chris01*​








The only thing is, I'm wondering if you always leave your watch in the same position (face up?) and if that makes a difference like it does with mechanical watches. At this level of accuracy it just might, and slowing could be nothing to do with temperature. The TC might be more competent than imagined. Has anyone tested this movement at different thermostatically maintained temperatures as a test of the TC implementation ?


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> The only thing is, I'm wondering if you always leave your watch in the same position (face up?) and if that makes a difference like it does with mechanical watches. At this level of accuracy it just might, and slowing could be nothing to do with temperature. The TC might be more competent than imagined. Has anyone tested this movement at different thermostatically maintained temperatures as a test of the TC implementation ?


An interesting idea. I have done measurements with an automatic and the variation rates are such that a day or two can give useful results. I GUESS that a quartz would show such a small variation vs position effect that temperature changes during storage would far outweigh anything else. The thermostatic chamber could obviously play a useful second role here, if only I had one! My quartz watches are always stored dial up, while my best auto has to suffer acrobatics in the name of precision.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Mechanical tuning fork watches exhibit positional variation. Quartz tuning fork watches do not.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Eeeb said:


> Mechanical tuning fork watches exhibit positional variation. Quartz tuning fork watches do not.


I can understand watches with stepper motor drives not being affected but I was thinking of watches driven by gears from the second hand...

On the other "hand" they are driven by discrete 1 second pulses so thinking again... they couldn't really be affected by drag in a particular position as the pulse is either transmitted through the mechanism or it isn't.

Any difference would have to come from a slight frequency change. It's fair to assume that the quartz vibration is not affected...even to a second or so a year, but it would be possible to verify this if someone has a spare quartz watch of known performance to experiment with in different positions.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

c_malc said:


> Has anyone tested this movement at different thermostatically maintained temperatures as a test of the TC implementation ?


 Look for dwjquest's posts. He has measured the rate vs temperature for various movements.
The search function is your best friend.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Eeeb said:


> Mechanical tuning fork watches exhibit positional variation. Quartz tuning fork watches do not.


That seems quite reasonable for the levels of accuracy that we tend to consider here. However, in the very interesting HP Application Note that you mentioned in another thread (https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/technical-references-quartz-874826.html), there is a reference to the effect of gravity on a quartz oscillator:

Gravity
The earth's gravitational force causes a stress related frequency effect
which varies with the physical orientation of the crystal oscillator, i.e.,
a calibrated oscillator in one orientation will change frequency when
rotated to another orientation. Typical offsets for 180° of rotation may
be in the order of 2 x 10-9 which is 1 x 10-9 per G. This
effect is also experienced when crystals are subjected to acceleration

If my arithmetic is correct, with 31.5 million seconds per year, this would represent 0.063 SPY. Certainly not detectable using the Stopwatch Method!


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

chris01 said:


> ...
> If my arithmetic is correct, with 31.5 million seconds per year, this would represent 0.063 SPY. Certainly not detectable using the Stopwatch Method!


I suspect radiation levels have more effect than this. So avoid radioactive areas or your watch may not be correct!


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Eeeb said:


> I suspect radiation levels have more effect than this. So avoid radioactive areas or your watch may not be correct!


I still have the watch that my father bought me more than 50 years ago. It has radium-based luminous paint and is probably still a bit radioactive. It's long overdue for the restoration that it will never get, but I'll remember not to wear it on the same wrist as a VHP.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Just my luck huh....

A little early, probably still settling down, but this is looking very much like 2 seconds a year; the worst possible result.

Oh well... I'll never be late


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Just my luck huh....
> 
> A little early, probably still settling down, but this is looking very much like 2 seconds a year; the worst possible result.
> 
> Oh well... I'll never be late


It's not quite clear to me how from your graph to calculate SPY. Can't you plot this for each daily measurement? That may highlight better the trend (or lack of it). I think that a week isn't long enough for you to get too despondent about a variation as big as 2 SPY.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> It's not quite clear to me how from your graph to calculate SPY. Can't you plot this for each daily measurement? That may highlight better the trend (or lack of it). I think that a week isn't long enough for you to get too despondent about a variation as big as 2 SPY.


You're right Chris (I did mention it's too early) but the putative SPY comes from both the linear trend line and the cumulative average line agreeing at 0.04s gain in the week. I'd rather take the SPY from the whole graph than plot it as it goes along. The trend line gives the SPY by it's gradient. I've got an idea how I might be able to automatically label it in SPY as the angle changes over time.

I'll certainly continue measuring for a long time yet !


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

chris01 said:


> It's not quite clear to me how from your graph to calculate SPY. Can't you plot this for each daily measurement? That may highlight better the trend (or lack of it). I think that a week isn't long enough for you to get too despondent about a variation as big as 2 SPY.


I find it very difficult to estimate the actual rate. There are never enough measurements!

All you have is 7 measuring points. All with a fair amount of unknown measuring noise and an unknown temperature component in them.

The temperature component is considerable: Warmer weather has a 5 spy effect.

Don't draw that blue line through them. It is misleading. You know far less than that.

On the other hand, if you don't stop measuring, you might as well use the 2 spy as an initial indication.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Hans Moleman said:


> I find it very difficult to estimate the actual rate. There are never enough measurements!
> 
> All you have is 7 measuring points. All with a fair amount of unknown measuring noise and an unknown temperature component in them.
> 
> ...


I think the daily values (blue line) are best represented by single points on the graph, or vertical bars. You will never get much of a smooth plot, as the daily values will have all the same set of errors superimposed on the general background slope(s). Plotting the daily calculated SPY will show a line that will gradually smooth out as the daily "wobble" is divided by the number of elapsed days. From that you should start to see something useful after a week or two.


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## Sabresoft (Dec 1, 2010)

chris01 said:


> I think the daily values (blue line) are best represented by single points on the graph, or vertical bars. You will never get much of a smooth plot, as the daily values will have all the same set of errors superimposed on the general background slope(s). Plotting the daily calculated SPY will show a line that will gradually smooth out as the daily "wobble" is divided by the number of elapsed days. From that you should start to see something useful after a week or two.


I find its more like a month or more before the curve settles down.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Sabresoft said:


> I find its more like a month or more before the curve settles down.


I agree completely. However, our friend is quite naturally keen to get some meaningful data from his watch ASAP, so any method that quickly shows a trend should be helpful, even if the magnitude of the variation isn't clear for a while.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

I've decided to slow down my VHP by one notch. And I thought I might track it for two weeks after the adjustment.

- I tried to always wear the watch. It had to come off one hour or so, each day.
- The green periods are spend under the duvet.
- The vertical grid is in 20 ms steps.

Odd things are:
- the jumps down in the first two days
- advances overnight are quite consistent (yes, there is a joke in there somewhere)

Did I manage to slow it down?
Actually, I don't have a clue.

In the first two days, I would have said yes. After that. Mmmm.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Hans Moleman said:


> I've decided to slow down my VHP by one notch. And I thought I might track it for two weeks after the adjustment.
> 
> - I tried to always wear the watch. It had to come off one hour or so, each day.
> - The green periods are spend under the duvet.
> ...


You do appear to have slowed it (albeit gradually) by about 0.15s in 2 weeks. Thats just about the correct amount for -1 step (0.33 spm). I have never seen a VHP take 2 weeks to realise that it's been regulated before!

(Edit) Just realised that I'm looking at variation data and partially thinking in terms of SPY. So I'm talking partial nonsense. It just looks like you have achieved exactly what you wanted and the watch is behaving sensibly. In what way does it seem wrong to you?


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Ok... I see what Chris was saying now, showing SPY is much better, but I don't agree that a smoothing formula shouldn't be applied; jagged lines with sudden reversals are far less in accordance with what's really happening between measurements, despite the smoothing being a fudge it *is* nearer the truth. Here's my latest graph attempt:


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Ok... I see what Chris was saying now, showing SPY is much better, but I don't agree that a smoothing formula shouldn't be applied; jagged lines with sudden reversals are far less in accordance with what's really happening between measurements, despite the smoothing being a fudge it *is* nearer the truth. Here's my latest graph attempt:


That's easier to interpret - no harm in smoothing out the SPY line (I assume that the points are the "real" calculated SPY values). I must, however, continue to disagree with you on the presentation of the daily variation data. For a highly accurate watch, where you are using manual methods to measure tha variation, the potential error on each measurement is way in excess of the actual daily variation. So, until you have accumulated a significant variation, the net value will continue to bounce around. Presenting this as a smoothed curve is not helpful in deducing performance data. But, it's your watch, your data, and your graphs, so please continue as you wish. 

If your SPY is truly representative, you'll be a happy man indeed.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> If your SPY is truly representative, you'll be a happy man indeed.


Thanks Chris,

It's better than I thought, or certainly seems that way at this early stage.

The points on both graph lines are real. Only the lines joining them are a little imaginary.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

chris01 said:


> You do appear to have slowed it (albeit gradually) by about 0.15s in 2 weeks. Thats just about the correct amount for -1 step (0.33 spm). I have never seen a VHP take 2 weeks to realise that it's been regulated before!
> 
> (Edit) Just realised that I'm looking at variation data and partially thinking in terms of SPY. So I'm talking partial nonsense. It just looks like you have achieved exactly what you wanted and the watch is behaving sensibly. In what way does it seem wrong to you?


What I wanted to illustrate with this is the fickleness of spy data. Even though I try my best with wearing it all the time.
You've done that earlier in your year graphs.
It happens on a daily basis too. In smaller amounts obviously.

If I wanted a hard and fast number, I would need a dwjquest temperature box, and store it at 30 degrees for a while.

I think I am back to near zero after a day's wearing. Wearing it overnight or not can be used for steering.
Problems some people have!


BTW. That's the second calibration in 5 years. So 1 spy aging sounds reasonable.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> the potential error on each measurement is way in excess of the actual daily variation.


This is true, even though I use the video method. So the blue line is only really approximately tracking the vagaries of measurement as opposed to the watches time errors, and the accumulated averages are all that really count.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

chris01 said:


> You do appear to have slowed it (albeit gradually) by about 0.15s in 2 weeks. Thats just about the correct amount for -1 step (0.33 spm). I have never seen a VHP take 2 weeks to realise that it's been regulated before!
> 
> (Edit) Just realised that I'm looking at variation data and partially thinking in terms of SPY. So I'm talking partial nonsense. It just looks like you have achieved exactly what you wanted and the watch is behaving sensibly. In what way does it seem wrong to you?


Look like you're right Chris.
Everything comes to one who are willing to wait!

That does surprise me a bit though.
And I am surprised how much warmer it gets overnight.
But it suits me fine that way.

Y axis is the offset in ms. Green lines: day - night


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

I realised that I was making a stupid mistake with my graph (re-averaging the average error). Now this is corrected so that the SPY starts suitably wildly, as it should, then smooths out.

The actual time offset readings (blue line) appear to have errors distributed between a clear upper and lower boundary so I've added a constant to centralise this horizontal corridor which stops the initial start time error from distorting these early results.

I'm assuming these results will drift away from the horizontal, but if they don't it would be an incredible performance. I wouldn't blame cynics for doubting it... I can't believe it myself.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> I realised that I was making a stupid mistake with my graph (re-averaging the average error). Now this is corrected so that the SPY starts suitably wildly, as it should, then smooths out.
> 
> The actual time offset readings (blue line) appear to have errors distributed between a clear upper and lower boundary so I've added a constant to centralise this horizontal corridor which stops the initial start time error from distorting these early results.
> 
> I'm assuming these results will drift away from the horizontal, but if they don't it would be an incredible performance. I wouldn't blame cynics for doubting it... I can't believe it myself.


That looks more like my own experience. Don't get too despondent if your SPY creeps up to 0.5s! I have never seen a TC maintain the same (+/- a bit) SPY for more than a month or two. Ambient temperature will cause a drift, and there are always other factors. Exciting, isn't it? My Flagship's current test is nearly at 2 months, and I'll publish a graph late next week.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Here's the first 2 months:









Unfortunately, my testing has been interrupted at this point. However, I have just acquired a new digital camera with a high speed video feature, so I thought it would be interesting to run a stopwatch and video test in parallel. First results in a couple of weeks.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Outstanding results Chris. It's very satisfying to own something with such supreme performance. A watch with a long and bold second hand that actually means something. 

VHP's are unusual products; they came from the same profit driven logic of capitalism as everything else, but exceeded both penny-pinching and appearance-driven design to go above and beyond consumer expectations.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Outstanding results Chris. It's very satisfying to own something with such supreme performance. A watch with a long and bold second hand that actually means something.
> 
> VHP's are unusual products; they came from the same profit driven logic of capitalism as everything else, but exceeded both penny-pinching and appearance-driven design to go above and beyond consumer expectations.


Only Longines have bothered to put "VHP" on the dial. There are a couple of instances of TCs with "COSC" but it doesn't really feel the same, does it? Also, I can't remember anyone else making a big deal about precision in their advertising. Where did it all go wrong?


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> Only Longines have bothered to put "VHP" on the dial. There are a couple of instances of TCs with "COSC" but it doesn't really feel the same, does it? Also, I can't remember anyone else making a big deal about precision in their advertising. Where did it all go wrong?


You're right Chris; it *has* all gone wrong. Radio and GPS watches do perform the accuracy function of a watch well, but I wonder what level of accuracy could be achieved if a team of 2013 physicists put their minds to re-worked quartz or other self contained electronic watch design. Science has moved on since the ETA movements in the VHP, especially in computing power for electronics modelling and CAD.

The "_it's good enough_" attitude that prevails is rather sad and just goes to emphasise how great ETA's designs were and how admirable Longine's development policy was in choosing to market them.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

c_malc said:


> ...I wonder what level of accuracy could be achieved if a team of 2013 physicists put their minds to re-worked quartz or other self contained electronic watch design. ...


They couldn't do much better than this https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/quick-presentation-heq-ezchronos-experiment-566907.html. Catalin's project achieves close to the theoretical limit of quartz crystals... well, one could get about 1/10 the error the ezchronos achieves but that's only theoretical. This project may be the best practical achievement.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Eeeb said:


> They couldn't do much better than this https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/quick-presentation-heq-ezchronos-experiment-566907.html. Catalin's project achieves close to the theoretical limit of quartz crystals... well, one could get about 1/10 the error the ezchronos achieves but that's only theoretical. This project may be the best practical achievement.


Agreed, that was an outstanding little project. Not very practical as a commercial watch, but a great demo of what might have been. I think that, until a new technology comes along, we have seen the best of autonomous precision. I hate to say this but, for available, affordable, and usable long-term accuracy, the only realistic current option is RC (and GPS when somebody makes a watch small enough for normal people to wear). The current HAQ offerings are too expensive and extreme (e.g. Breitling) to appeal to more than a tiny minority.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

RC watch fans always assume good reception. Much of the planet does not have that and even more does not have that consistently.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Eeeb said:


> RC watch fans always assume good reception. Much of the planet does not have that and even more does not have that consistently.


No argument here. If I didn't live within usable range of two transmitters I'd see the RC as just another not very accurate quartz. For me (2 clocks and 2 watches) they work very well indeed, but I'd still greatly prefer to have a good choice of new TCs. As soon as I can get a GPS that's no bigger or heavier than my Aerospace I'll have one (or two, even!).


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

My observations is that a few seconds/year without much adjustment of the pararmeters seems achievable long term. I am still monitoring my watch.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

Well... it's been running for a month now following calibration and I continue to be astonished; It has remained inside one sixth of a second from correct at all times and the prediction for the SPY is ridiculously good. I couldn't be more pleased. Thanks to all of you for the inspiration and assistance.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> Well... it's been running for a month now following calibration and I continue to be astonished; It has remained inside one sixth of a second from correct at all times and the prediction for the SPY is ridiculously good. I couldn't be more pleased. Thanks to all of you for the inspiration and assistance.


Looking very good! Now, what's next for your TC collection?


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

chris01 said:


> Looking very good! Now, what's next for your TC collection?


In order of "drool factor" I could be tempted by 3) Flagship, 2) HAQ Seamaster, but I do love a day-date watch and the very best display of that for me is one where you can see at a glance how far you are through the week and through the month:

1) Constellation (with the 1445 movement... hard to find). I love the dated look of this dial (pun *not* intended).


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

c_malc said:


> In order of "drool factor" I could be tempted by 3) Flagship, 2) pre-Bond Seamaster, but I do love a day-date watch and the very best display of that for me is one where you can see at a glance how far you are through the week and through the month:
> 
> 1) Constellation (with the 1445 movement... hard to find). I love the dated look of this dial (pun *not* intended).


That's very nice. I have looked at the Perp. Cal. HAQ Constellations (almost the same movement as the Longines) but they usually seem very expensive and I'm not sure that I'd be happy with the case/bracelet design. There's a Seamaster 200M HAQ but they are rare, as is the Flagship (smug grin at this point!).


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*

This looks OK. I think it's the dark blue dial version, but not very clear from the photos.

LONGINES Mens VHP Conquest Perpetual Calendar Watch | eBay


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



chris01 said:


> This looks OK.


Here's another one that may be of interest to a tinkerer. 【LONGINES】V.H.P.コンクエスト　ケース付　ジャンク品 - ヤフオク!


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



Defiant4Ever said:


> Here's another one that may be of interest to a tinkerer. ã€�LONGINESã€'V.H.P.ã‚³ãƒ³ã‚¯ã‚¨ã‚¹ãƒˆã€€ã‚±ãƒ¼ã‚¹ä»˜ã€€ã‚¸ãƒ£ãƒ³ã‚¯å"� - ãƒ¤ãƒ•ã‚ªã‚¯!


Lovely exterior condition... You could put that together with battered one that works and make a great watch from the two.


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## Defiant4Ever (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



c_malc said:


> Lovely exterior condition... You could put that together with battered one that works and make a great watch from the two.


If I didn't already have one I would bid. It looks so good I would bet on it being a simple fix. The movement is robust and the watch doesn't look damaged.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



Defiant4Ever said:


> If I didn't already have one I would bid. It looks so good I would bet on it being a simple fix. The movement is robust and the watch doesn't look damaged.


Unlikely, but it could be as simple as pressing in the crown to turn it on once the new battery is in place.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*

There's another that may have nothing wrong, except missing the instructions for setting the perpetual calendar:

Longines VHP Perpetual Calendar Conquest | eBay

However the hands look a bit corroded, so I'd be concerned about water ingress during its life. Bracelet's a bit short as well.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*

Just in case anyone was wondering about my 200M... I stopped taking regular measurements because it turned out to be perfectly adjusted. I rarely check it now but can correct the fraction of a second of inaccuracy by wearing it at night (or not). I haven't done it methodically yet, but I think wearing it one night a week would be just right.

It was a little slow a while ago so I wore it every night for some time without checking and now find I've overshot. It was set in June and is today about 1/4 second fast, which is the easily the biggest error so far... I've been wearing it constantly so I'm going to have to leave it off for a while to bring it back to exact satellite time.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



c_malc said:


> Just in case anyone was wondering about my 200M... I stopped taking regular measurements because it turned out to be perfectly adjusted. I rarely check it now but can correct the fraction of a second of inaccuracy by wearing it at night (or not). I haven't done it methodically yet, but I think wearing it one night a week would be just right.
> 
> It was a little slow a while ago so I wore it every night for some time without checking and now find I've overshot. It was set in June and is today about 1/4 second fast, which is the easily the biggest error so far... I've been wearing it constantly so I'm going to have to leave it off for a while to bring it back to exact satellite time.


Brilliant watches, aren't they. Calibrate to within +/- 2 SPY then fine-tune by your wearing pattern. With care it won't need hacking between 10-year battery changes. Why did Longines ever stop making them?


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



chris01 said:


> Brilliant watches, aren't they. Calibrate to within +/- 2 SPY then fine-tune by your wearing pattern. With care it won't need hacking between 10-year battery changes. Why did Longines ever stop making them?


Thank God for the possibility for calibration!
Almost a requirement I would say.

I still don't miss any radio time pips so see it jump to the full hour right in synch with the signals.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



chris01 said:


> Brilliant watches, aren't they.


Yes, absolutely. It continually delights me. I'm very grateful to the forum for educating me towards this exact watch.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



Hans Moleman said:


> I still don't miss any radio time pips so see it jump to the full hour right in synch with the signals.


Hilariously the digital radio time pips disagree with my Longines. Of course you know which is correct.


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## xtratomic (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



c_malc said:


> Hilariously the digital radio time pips disagree with my Longines. Of course you know which is correct.


Of course, the radio ones

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



c_malc said:


> Hilariously the digital radio time pips disagree with my Longines. Of course you know which is correct.


Fortunately there are still a few all analogue radio stations here.
Sometimes their time pips are out... 
Gives me a chance to be the smart-ass who keeps them honest.

The correct time is not that easy to come by.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



Hans Moleman said:


> Fortunately there are still a few all analogue radio stations here.
> Sometimes their time pips are out...
> Gives me a chance to be the smart-ass who keeps them honest.
> 
> The correct time is not that easy to come by.


We still have the good old BBC Greenwich time signal, unfortunately not broadcast as often as it used to be. But it's very reliable and accurate enough - a few milliseconds, varying a bit depending on where you live. When the vandals finally shut down the FM transmitters and force national broadcasting onto the DAB abortion, hardly anybody will care. Perhaps HAQ owners will be able to sell a time service to those who do care.

After I bought my first HAQ, a VHP Ti, in 1986 I regularly checked it against Greenwich, and it was rock solid +2 SPY. I reset it each year on 1 January. Then, in mid 1992, I suddenly found it was 2 seconds fast instead of the expected 1 sec. Great panic ensued, until I accidentally found out about leap seconds. The event on 30 June 1992 was the first that didn't coincide with my rehacking the watch.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*

Which reminds me I have a Flaghship Perpetual Calendar...I need to take at look at how it's doing...not looking forward to adjusting it again though :-( Anyone need one (B&P, Bracelet, Strap) ;-)


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



webvan said:


> Which reminds me I have a Flaghship Perpetual Calendar...I need to take at look at how it's doing...not looking forward to adjusting it again though :-( Anyone need one (B&P, Bracelet, Strap) ;-)


I had a momentary urge to say yes, please. Then I remembered that one Conquest and one Flagship VHP PC is enough! I'd guess there are a few people here who'd be very interested.

I understand your feelings about the calibration if you haven't tried the excellent 'button jig' that makes it pretty damn easy. If you haven't seen it let me know and I'll find the post for you. Failing that, you could look for a Bulova 300 universal movement holder, unfortunately not very common outside the US, where most sellers won't ship abroad.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



xtratomic said:


> Of course, the radio ones


Nope... digital radio pips don't agree with FM radio pips or with my Longines.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



c_malc said:


> Nope... digital radio pips don't agree with FM radio pips or with my Longines.


Of course, you're correct. Perhaps he was joking?

Have you ever tried listening simultaneously to programmes via FM, DAB, and radio via DTV? It's impossible to stand it for more than a few seconds.


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



chris01 said:


> Have you ever tried listening simultaneously to programmes via FM, DAB


Yes had a radio play on once, moving around the house I turned another radio on... Soon realised the bizarre echoing sound was because one was DAB and the other FM.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



chris01 said:


> I had a momentary urge to say yes, please. Then I remembered that one Conquest and one Flagship VHP PC is enough! I'd guess there are a few people here who'd be very interested.
> 
> I understand your feelings about the calibration if you haven't tried the excellent 'button jig' that makes it pretty damn easy. If you haven't seen it let me know and I'll find the post for you. Failing that, you could look for a Bulova 300 universal movement holder, unfortunately not very common outside the US, where most sellers won't ship abroad.


Thanks, I do remember that "button" tip but for some reason it didn't really help, must be my hands ;-) Since I have a similar Omega Double Eagle with the 1680 (same movement, smaller battery so contacts accessible), the Longines Flagship should probably go anyway, oh well, I'll have to put a sales post together at some point ;-)

Had never heard of that "powered" movement holder, but...there is a topic about it here : https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/third-hand-eta-thermolines-91075.html


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## c_malc (Jan 5, 2013)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



webvan said:


> Thanks, I do remember that "button" tip but for some reason it didn't really help, must be my hands ;-)


Yep... even with a good button you have to be pretty dexterous to ensure continuous electrical contact with one hand while tapping the +/- contact with the other. A loupe you can wear is absolutely essential (made a spectacles style holder for mine from a wire coat-hanger)


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



c_malc said:


> Yep... even with a good button you have to be pretty dexterous to ensure continuous electrical contact with one hand while tapping the +/- contact with the other. A loupe you can wear is absolutely essential (made a spectacles style holder for mine from a wire coat-hanger)


My solution was to use a very large sewing needle (8 cm), soldered to a wire and held in firm contact with the + or - pad on the watch, and to touch the other end of the wire to the external battery. In calibrating 3 watches I only had to redo one, where I must have done 13 hits instead of 12. You do get some tell-tale indents on the watch pad, though.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



webvan said:


> Had never heard of that "powered" movement holder, but...there is a topic about it here : https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/third-hand-eta-thermolines-91075.html


I was lucky enough to find one on eBay UK, identical item but branded ETIC No. 118.380. From the multilingual instruction leaflet, I'd guess that this a French (Swiss?) company. It does work very well, as the watch is held securely and the power supply is nice and stable while you're stabbing away at the calibration pads.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - another one!*



chris01 said:


> I was lucky enough to find one on eBay UK, identical item but branded ETIC No. 118.380. From the multilingual instruction leaflet, I'd guess that this a French (Swiss?) company. It does work very well, as the watch is held securely and the power supply is nice and stable while you're stabbing away at the calibration pads.


I can't say I enjoy doing the calibration either.
Especially when I needed to wait for a few weeks to see if they worked or not.
I can pick it up a day now, but in the beginning it took some doing.

There is only one thing I hate more: a 1 second per week rate. What use is that to me?

I made one of those clamps out of wood. With bend needles for power supply.
All very embarrassing actually. I expected the needles to come lose while I was doing the calibration, but they held.

I'll need it again every 5 to 10 years is my guess.


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## PeterG_SVK (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: Longines Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar - one year after calibration*

Just to share the results, Longines Conqest VHP Perpetual, white dial, one year after calibration.


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