# Bulova is No More



## jeffaudit0821

It pains me greatly because I have been a Bulova enthusiast since the 60's when my Mom worked for a Jewelry Trade company and I got to meet a Watch Repairman that was trained in the Bulova Watch repair school for Disabled WWII veterans. It was a great experience as a 8 year old kid to meet a man with no legs in a wheelchair that let me use his "Loop" to look into the workings of a Bulova watch; he told me to always buy Bulova, I always have. Now the company belongs to a company from the Country whose Navy blew his legs off; I am not a happy American.

Here is the article, I pasted it for you

NEW YORK, Jan., 5, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- Citizen Watch Company, Ltd., parent of Bulova Corporation and Citizen Watch Company of America has completed the integration of the two companies into one organization, Citizen Watch Company of America, Inc. The company will do business in the Trade as Citizen Watch America.
Citizen and Bulova will continue to operate as separate brands, building upon their very distinctive identities in the market with their unique, award winning designs and technologies. They will also continue to drive highly differentiated advertising, marketing and brand campaigns.

Jeffrey Cohen will be the President of the consolidated company effective January 1, 2017.
In January 2016, Cohen was promoted to President of the Bulova Corporation in addition to his separate role as President of Citizen Watch Company of America.
Citizen Watch Company Ltd. President Toshio Tokura explained: "Jeffrey's new position as President of the newly formed integrated company will provide an excellent opportunity for CITIZEN WATCH to take broader advantage of his exceptional vision, managerial skills and industry-wide relationships." "Both the Bulova and Citizen brand teams will now share a common vision: offering the most compelling collection of brands and products that are loved, favored and respected throughout the world," he continued.
As part of the integration plan, the company is pleased to announce several organizational changes that are also effective, January 1, 2017:


Michael Benavente assumes leadership of Bulova US as Managing Director of Bulova US, Caribbean & Latin American Markets, reporting to Jeffrey Cohen
Eric Horowitz assumes leadership of Citizen US as Managing Director of Citizen US & Caribbean Markets, reporting to Jeffrey Cohen
Stephen Miller becomes Chief Operating Officer of Citizen Watch America
John Wille becomes Chief Financial Officer of Citizen Watch America
Trish Keller assumes the role of Chief Technology Officer of Citizen Watch America
*About Bulova
*Founded in 1875, Bulova remains one of the world's most recognized brands, with a distinguished portfolio that includes Bulova, Caravelle New York, Wittnauer watches, as well as licensed Harley-Davidson Timepieces by Bulova watches, Frank Lloyd Wright Collection watches and clocks, and Bulova Clocks. Bulova is headquartered in New York City, with eight International offices and distribution in 65 markets. Still at the forefront of the timekeeping industry, Bulova is committed to advancing the art of watchmaking with extraordinary design, exclusive high-performance technology and enduring quality that upholds a tradition of excellence and meets the needs of global consumers today. For more information, visit www.bulova.com
*About Citizen Watch
*Citizen Watch is a true manufacture d'horlogerie with a comprehensive manufacturing process that extends from creating a watch's individual components to its final assembly. The company operates in more than 130 countries around the world. In 1976, CITIZEN created the world's first analog light-powered watch. Citizen called the technology Eco-Drive. With Eco-Drive, Citizen's watches generate energy even from dim light and keep running for months even in the dark. Citizen has created watches with multi-functions; watches that are smaller, thinner, and more beautiful; watches that everyone can relate to, even love. As a light-power pioneer, Citizen continues to explore new possibilities for the future of the wristwatch and to craft timepieces that inspire people everywhere. For more information, visit www.citizenwatch.com.

Personally I wish Jeffery Cohen could be tried for treason, it's a damn shame because Greg Thumm created the Accu Swiss line and it was a nice Swiss Made line with broad acceptance in Europe and the U.S., but Citizen acquired Frederique Constant so now they don't see a need for a Swiss Line under the Bulova name; in fact they don't see the need for a Bulova company. It's a sad day for Americans


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## yankeexpress

Citizen needs to adopt the Precisionist movement and make a solar charged version. The current Eco-Drives are too fragile when dropped.


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## ddavidsonmd

I may be mis reading this but doesn't it say that Bulova will still remain as a brand ? So why do you say Bulova no more ?


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## NickTheGreat

I'm confused also. Didn't Citizen buy Bulova years ago? And I don't see anything here that says Citizen is chopping Bulova, do i?


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## minuteman62

NickTheGreat said:


> I'm confused also. Didn't Citizen buy Bulova years ago? And I don't see anything here that says Citizen is chopping Bulova, do i?


Yes.....On January 10, 2008, Citizen bought the Bulova Watch Company for $250 million. (9 Years ago).....


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## simpletreasures

I'm sorry, but am I the only one to mention this is "old news"?


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## jupiter6

In other news, Hilary has reached the summit of Everest.


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## journeyforce

Just another poster with a low post count whining about how America's companies are being stolen from us by insidious foreign influences. WWII ended 72 years ago. If you ask me, Bulova died in 1979 when it lost its independence as a company and was reduced to nothing more then one portfolio out of many in the Loews Corp file cabinet.


Citizen is a good company which makes a good product line and has worked with Bulova since the 1970's when Citizen licensed the tuning fork tech and made HoSonic watches. Citizen also has had a hands off approach with Bulova. This allows Bulova to have a large amount of independence.


I suppose you consider anybody who buys Japanese products a traitor??? Keep in mind that Toyota, Honda, Nissan and a whole host of other Japanese companies employee lots of Americans. Citizen watch company employees a lot of Americans (perhaps more so then Bulova did over the last 20 years before Citizen bought them)


If you really want to blame somebody for the death of the American watch industry then blame the Swiss. While the USA was over there fighting for freedom and our watch companies not making watches so as to make bomb timers and navigational equipment, the Swiss were playing the neutral card and thus flooded the market with cheaper quality watches causing American companies to close down and put folks out of work. But Karma is very fickle and despite helping to pioneer quartz watches, the quartz revolution decimated the Swiss watch industry causing countless loss of jobs


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## Alysandir

jeffaudit0821 said:


> Personally I wish Jeffery Cohen could be tried for treason


You do know that Citizen acquired Bulova (2008) *before* Cohen came to Citizen (2010), correct?

So you want him put in front of a firing squad for managing one of Citizen's properties?

Regards,
Alysandir


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## SigmaPiJiggy

Aaaaaaaand how is Bulova "no more"? As far as I can tell, business as usual. (Since 2008 anyway). 


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## J.D.B.

2008? I've bought several kick-a** Bulovas since then. Long live Bulova!


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## Wolfsatz

Im starting to see the B transform into a C if I look very very close.










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## Watchbreath

AGAIN ?


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## BenchGuy

The corporate landscape continues to change...maybe a figment of climate change...???
And I suppose we could say that the entire list of Richemont holdings, "are no more"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richemont

Brands are what they are. You want independent...here is a list from Forbes 2014 article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariela...the-major-luxury-watch-brands/#d98e2f01eb15):

Currently Independent Major Luxury Watch Brands 

Rolex / Tudor
Audemars Piguet
Breitling
Frederique Constant / Alpina
Chanel
Chopard
Patek Phillipe
Hermes
Richard Mille

Corporate greed...or corporate survival...? You tell me...
Regards, BG


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## jeffaudit0821

You have a real valid point but Bulova doesn't own any factories as of 1999


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## jeffaudit0821

Not really, I am just a frustrated American that had a lot of brand loyalty to Bulova. This is an example of American sarcastic humor


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## jeffaudit0821

True that! You are most correct, I'm not whining I'm in morning, this is the last vestige at least over the past 7 years or so Citizen did keep its hands off and the design and management was handled up in the New York HQ, today its simple an office for distribution and marketing, the uniqueness will be dead but the Designs from the Thumm era are still hitting the market as we speak so you won't see the "Death" part for several years.


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## jeffaudit0821

The chopping will come if the market segment does not workout but it will depend on the market. With the Apple Watch type influx reducing product lines may become a reality, an example would be the Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Plymoth lines in the American Car industry.


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## Cobia

This is good for Bulova, not bad.


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## jeffaudit0821

simpletreasures you are most correct! Old news but I was really putting this in as a response to some bloggers who were under the impression that Bulova was a separate functioning company


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## jeffaudit0821

No


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## simpletreasures

Jeff, I understand your frustration. I've collected the Bulova brand for over 55 years, which is probably longer than a lot of members here are "old".


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## ZIPPER79

I think you should find something to be a happy American.....Wasting your time on this is tiring. I'm Jewish and buy German cars because they suit my preferences, and yes I've been to Dachau in Munich Germany.....I condemned those who tried to wipe us from this earth and that's it. It's time for you to move on and let it go because it's only going to make you perpetually angry.




jeffaudit0821 said:


> It pains me greatly because I have been a Bulova enthusiast since the 60's when my Mom worked for a Jewelry Trade company and I got to meet a Watch Repairman that was trained in the Bulova Watch repair school for Disabled WWII veterans. It was a great experience as a 8 year old kid to meet a man with no legs in a wheelchair that let me use his "Loop" to look into the workings of a Bulova watch; he told me to always buy Bulova, I always have. Now the company belongs to a company from the Country whose Navy blew his legs off; I am not a happy American.
> 
> Here is the article, I pasted it for you
> 
> NEW YORK, Jan., 5, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- Citizen Watch Company, Ltd., parent of Bulova Corporation and Citizen Watch Company of America has completed the integration of the two companies into one organization, Citizen Watch Company of America, Inc. The company will do business in the Trade as Citizen Watch America.
> Citizen and Bulova will continue to operate as separate brands, building upon their very distinctive identities in the market with their unique, award winning designs and technologies. They will also continue to drive highly differentiated advertising, marketing and brand campaigns.
> 
> Jeffrey Cohen will be the President of the consolidated company effective January 1, 2017.
> In January 2016, Cohen was promoted to President of the Bulova Corporation in addition to his separate role as President of Citizen Watch Company of America.
> Citizen Watch Company Ltd. President Toshio Tokura explained: "Jeffrey's new position as President of the newly formed integrated company will provide an excellent opportunity for CITIZEN WATCH to take broader advantage of his exceptional vision, managerial skills and industry-wide relationships." "Both the Bulova and Citizen brand teams will now share a common vision: offering the most compelling collection of brands and products that are loved, favored and respected throughout the world," he continued.
> As part of the integration plan, the company is pleased to announce several organizational changes that are also effective, January 1, 2017:
> 
> 
> Michael Benavente assumes leadership of Bulova US as Managing Director of Bulova US, Caribbean & Latin American Markets, reporting to Jeffrey Cohen
> Eric Horowitz assumes leadership of Citizen US as Managing Director of Citizen US & Caribbean Markets, reporting to Jeffrey Cohen
> Stephen Miller becomes Chief Operating Officer of Citizen Watch America
> John Wille becomes Chief Financial Officer of Citizen Watch America
> Trish Keller assumes the role of Chief Technology Officer of Citizen Watch America
> *About Bulova
> *Founded in 1875, Bulova remains one of the world's most recognized brands, with a distinguished portfolio that includes Bulova, Caravelle New York, Wittnauer watches, as well as licensed Harley-Davidson Timepieces by Bulova watches, Frank Lloyd Wright Collection watches and clocks, and Bulova Clocks. Bulova is headquartered in New York City, with eight International offices and distribution in 65 markets. Still at the forefront of the timekeeping industry, Bulova is committed to advancing the art of watchmaking with extraordinary design, exclusive high-performance technology and enduring quality that upholds a tradition of excellence and meets the needs of global consumers today. For more information, visit www.bulova.com
> *About Citizen Watch
> *Citizen Watch is a true manufacture d'horlogerie with a comprehensive manufacturing process that extends from creating a watch's individual components to its final assembly. The company operates in more than 130 countries around the world. In 1976, CITIZEN created the world's first analog light-powered watch. Citizen called the technology Eco-Drive. With Eco-Drive, Citizen's watches generate energy even from dim light and keep running for months even in the dark. Citizen has created watches with multi-functions; watches that are smaller, thinner, and more beautiful; watches that everyone can relate to, even love. As a light-power pioneer, Citizen continues to explore new possibilities for the future of the wristwatch and to craft timepieces that inspire people everywhere. For more information, visit www.citizenwatch.com.
> 
> Personally I wish Jeffery Cohen could be tried for treason, it's a damn shame because Greg Thumm created the Accu Swiss line and it was a nice Swiss Made line with broad acceptance in Europe and the U.S., but Citizen acquired Frederique Constant so now they don't see a need for a Swiss Line under the Bulova name; in fact they don't see the need for a Bulova company. It's a sad day for Americans


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## tmathes

Scratch one from your list, Frederique Constant. They're owned by Citizen (as mentioned in the 1st post).



BenchGuy said:


> The corporate landscape continues to change...maybe a figment of climate change...???
> And I suppose we could say that the entire list of Richemont holdings, "are no more"...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richemont
> 
> Brands are what they are. You want independent...here is a list from Forbes 2014 article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariela...the-major-luxury-watch-brands/#d98e2f01eb15):
> 
> *Currently Independent Major Luxury Watch Brands*
> 
> 
> Rolex / Tudor
> Audemars Piguet
> Breitling
> Frederique Constant / Alpina
> Chanel
> Chopard
> Patek Phillipe
> Hermes
> Richard Mille
> 
> Corporate greed...or corporate survival...? You tell me...
> Regards, BG


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## yankeexpress

BenchGuy said:


> The corporate landscape continues to change...maybe a figment of climate change...???
> And I suppose we could say that the entire list of Richemont holdings, "are no more"...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richemont
> 
> Brands are what they are. You want independent...here is a list from Forbes 2014 article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariela...the-major-luxury-watch-brands/#d98e2f01eb15):
> 
> *Currently Independent Major Luxury Watch Brands*
> 
> 
> Rolex / Tudor
> Audemars Piguet
> Breitling
> Frederique Constant / Alpina
> Chanel
> Chopard
> Patek Phillipe
> Hermes
> Richard Mille
> 
> Corporate greed...or corporate survival...? You tell me...
> Regards, BG


Incomplete list.....Oris should be on it


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## SteveJ

To put this into some sort of realistic perspective.

"The ONLY thing in life that does not change is that everything changes."

"1.) Don't sweat the small stuff.
2.) It's ALL small stuff."

"IF you want to live, you always look out for moving equipment. 
Moving equipment NEVER loses against mere flesh."

"Lead; Follow; or get the [email protected]!! out of the way!"


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## audiotechnicaMuch

If only citizen managed to fix some of the styling/design oddities from Bulova during the previous 9 years! The problem is Citizen didn't stop Bulova from making oversized watches that has to be sold at clearance sales way below retail


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## audiotechnicaMuch

I for one would like to know what bulova plans to cook up next on the accutron ans accu swiss line that seems to be recently discontinued... Accu swiss was truely a disaster in marketimg but at least the accutron was supposed to be iconic. The grammy award watches that bulova is pumping right now is laughable 

Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


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## wbird

Actually I think those big Precisionist watches are the reason that the Bulova name still exists. That movement and those watches coupled with Citizen's money and distribution created buzz in the watch community and consumers that enabled them to keep R&D and new products coming. If not for that watch and Citizen buying them I doubt that we would have seen the Moonwatch, Curve, or the Accutron II line. 

Lets face it the AccuSwiss line, and I own one, were just Bulova badged watches that were sub-contracted to a Swiss firm using ETA and later Sellita movements. Citizen will let FC do that work now.

OP if you want to buy a watch from an American owned company you can always buy a Movado, Shinola, or an Invicta


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## yankeexpress

teioh3 said:


> If only citizen managed to fix some of the styling/design oddities from Bulova during the previous 9 years! The problem is Citizen didn't stop Bulova from making oversized watches that has to be sold at clearance sales way below retail


Not really 100% true as the Surveyor, Moonview and Lobster versions of the Accutron II are smaller than the big Precisionist watches, though some colors have been discounted under $100.

This Surveyor is about 41mm and wears smaller:










Kind of hoping they still release this new colorful Stars & Stripes reissue model, not sure I will buy one:










http://wornandwound.com/bulova-taps-archives-moon-watch-2-0-chronograph-c-stars-stripes/


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## BenchGuy

yankeexpress said:


> Incomplete list.....Oris should be on it


Didn't say it was complete...or up to date...just cited a 2014 article from Forbes and supplied the link. As with any other posting on the web, veracity is subject to verification. To meet my definition of "independent", in-house fabrication is a criterion in addition to not being owned by a holding company... I believe this makes the number very small...but there are a number of smaller companies which could be added to the list.

Regards, 
BG

Education: the path from cocky arrogance to miserable uncertainty (Mark Twain)...


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## DaveK12

10 years ago, Bulova was technically independent, but didn't have what they do today. Bulova has exclusive technology and movements, and a design staff that understands and appreciates Bulova's unique history and style. Alphas, Lobsters, Moon watch, Chronograph C...

I think that Citizen is doing a fantastic job with Bulova recently. They basically folded their US operations into the former Bulova.


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## UAV-OPS

Americans wearing Japanese watches and driving Mitsubishi's, Japanese riding Harley-Davidson's and sipping Coca-Cola, it is what it is, whatever that "is" ... I get what the OP is saying, however. I think Bulova should just no longer exist instead of being a company that literally is nothing more than a name at this point, the same can be said about many former so called American companies. I like a lot of things made in other countries. I drive a Mazda made in Hiroshima, JP, I wear watches made from all over the place, Japan, Switzerland and Singapore, own a pistol made in Czech Republic and carry a knife made in Rhode Island. Americans and American companies need to have at least an ounce of pride in "American Made" though, it literally seems to be a non-existent concept/feeling.

For what it's worth, I'm in the U.S. Army and currently typing this from Afghanistan and I was born in the late 80's when globalized marketing/manufacturing was already in full swing, I add this tidbit of info so you can further evaluate my opinion and possibly others a little better.

EDIT: Also, to put it frankly, you can really only blame American CEO's and such for selling out to foreign companies, they have the choice to try an stay "American" as possible or simply let these companies flunk ... there's so many variables at play as to why it even gets to this point, however.


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## jeffaudit0821

To every one WOW, great discussion by incredibly bright people! Watch enthusiasts are such a cool and great bunch, I love discussions like this; I am so glad I joined this forum. 

UAV-OPS I think I speak for everyone, espically on Veteran's Day weekend, we really appreciate your service in Afghanistan and hope/pray everything goes well for you and your buddies. I personally agree with you on the need for Americans to take pride in American craftsmanship and I am pretty sure your generation is going to make this country a lot better place than mine did. I have a daughter I just watched graduate from Notre Dame and she has abilities I could only dream of.

Zipper79 - Woooo, you are right on, (old slang for a very smart guy) I hope I didn't come off as anti anything not American, I owned a Honda, a Toyota and own an Orient Bambino! I recently bought a Chevrolet because Consumer Reports rated it a best buy for value and reliability, plus a hell of a lot better interest rate from GM Motor Credit. Interestingly enough my Uncle helped liberate a death camp in WWII, I think in Belgium, he was in Patton's 3rd Army that made the assault on Bastoine, not sure of spelling here. He would not buy German products of any kind, he had a little more first hand experience than I did.

yankeeexpress - wow, great pictures, Citizen is making some nice looking stuff, that is for sure 

Thanks and wow, I really enjoyed this, can't wait for more


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## thatotherguy1

Bulova has been a Citizen subsidiary for years, as it has been established in this thread already, thus it has been a Japanese owned company for quite a while.
Also, the quartz watches that Bulova and nearly every other manufacturer in existence use are based on technology pioneered by the Japanese, no?
Citizen is a fine company and I see no problem at all with them consolidating the US branches of their company. It ought to make their logistics quite a bit easier.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Well Then Lets See

............ BULOVA ..... U.S. of A. !!!!


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## MrDagon007

tmathes said:


> Scratch one from your list, Frederique Constant. They're owned by Citizen (as mentioned in the 1st post).


Sadly, also scratch Breitling - taken over since a few weeks.


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## Michaeljord

SigmaPiJiggy said:


> Aaaaaaaand how is Bulova "no more"? As far as I can tell, business as usual. (Since 2008 anyway).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was confused.. Trust me!:roll::roll:


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## jeffaudit0821

Eww, to bad


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## jeffaudit0821

thatotherguy you are so right, Japanese Technology, and Japanese people Rock! I just have a nostalgic feeling about Bulova so when Citizen puts the Bulova name on their watch and advertise the Bulova Legacy it just doesn't work for me. Plus the U.S. Bulova payroll has been reduced to nothing so the contribution to our economy has been reduced drastically since 2015.


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## jeffaudit0821

Wow, that Oceanographer rrocks!


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## Wolfsatz

jeffaudit0821 said:


> thatotherguy you are so right, Japanese Technology, and Japanese people Rock! I just have a nostalgic feeling about Bulova so when Citizen puts the Bulova name on their watch and advertise the Bulova Legacy it just doesn't work for me. Plus the U.S. Bulova payroll has been reduced to nothing so the contribution to our economy has been reduced drastically since 2015.


Stop buying chinese products!!!!

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## oztech

I just looked at the Bulova website and Accutron ll is no more but the Precisionists is still present.


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## V.I.T.

tmathes said:


> Scratch one from your list, Frederique Constant. They're owned by Citizen (as mentioned in the 1st post).





yankeexpress said:


> Incomplete list.....Oris should be on it


The list is for *Currently Independent Major Luxury Watch Brands
*
Unfortunately neither FC or ORIS are considered luxury


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## eljay

V.I.T. said:


> The list is for *Currently Independent Major Luxury Watch Brands
> *
> Unfortunately neither FC or ORIS are considered luxury


What is a several thousand dollar watch made using obsolete technology and precious metals if not a luxury item?


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## V.I.T.

eljay said:


> What is a several thousand dollar watch made using obsolete technology and previous metals if not a luxury item?


They're all luxury to me, don't get me wrong. Some would consider them mid or even entry level watches though.


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## eljay

V.I.T. said:


> Some would consider them mid or even entry level watches though.


But who?


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## Wolfsatz

Is my watch at risk of stopping?

Does Citizen make Swiss watches?


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## simpletreasures

eljay said:


> But who?


*Anyone still discussing this~!

*


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## DaveMac66

Think they might have worn themselves out. Like a epic tennis battle but with no balls. 

Moral of the the story Tom Foolery play by all, except that one guy. I'm out! 


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## Sevenmack

eljay said:


> But who?


Someone who buys Patek Philippe and A. Lange & Sohne, all of which start at 14 grand a pop. Certainly in the real world, any watch costing more than $400 is a luxury good; that's because it is a hefty price to pay when the average household income in the United States is $53,000 or so a year pre-tax (and considerably less post-tax). But there are collectors who wouldn't even think a $400 watch is worthy of them.


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## thatotherguy1

Wolfsatz said:


> Stop buying chinese products!!!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N915P using Tapatalk


Hate to be contrarian, but I kindly request that you look at the country of origin on the device you just used to send that message. It's likely Chinese. China is a fine country with a fine history of industrial prowess and innovation. Put politics aside and one realizes that China is the source of a lot of technologies and products we use daily and take for granted.
Including paper, for example.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## oztech

I am surprised no one got upset over the discontinuance of the Accutron ll line unless they are reintroducing it with case changes.


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## DaveK12

oztech said:


> I am surprised no one got upset over the discontinuance of the Accutron ll line unless they are reintroducing it with case changes.


Is there any official word of this, or are you going by the fact that they're not on the Bulova main page? If it's true then I am upset. That said, I have an Alpha with a 2017 date code that says 262 kHz under the movement number. That makes it 2 years newer than my black one and 3 newer than the rose one I gave my mom. The 2017 one loses about 2 sec per month, the 2014 one gains about 3, and the 2015 has gained one second in 85 days.


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## oztech

DaveK12 said:


> Is there any official word of this, or are you going by the fact that they're not on the Bulova main page? If it's true then I am upset. That said, I have an Alpha with a 2017 date code that says 262 kHz under the movement number. That makes it 2 years newer than my black one and 3 newer than the rose one I gave my mom. The 2017 one loses about 2 sec per month, the 2014 one gains about 3, and the 2015 has gained one second in 85 days.


I am going by the fact they are not on Bulova's main page and if you type Accutron ll in their search it comes back no results found.
I think it is sad as the Surveyor looked interesting.


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## jeffaudit0821

DaveK12 said:


> Is there any official word of this, or are you going by the fact that they're not on the Bulova main page? If it's true then I am upset. That said, I have an Alpha with a 2017 date code that says 262 kHz under the movement number. That makes it 2 years newer than my black one and 3 newer than the rose one I gave my mom. The 2017 one loses about 2 sec per month, the 2014 one gains about 3, and the 2015 has gained one second in 85 days.


I think that is truly great performance, I think my discontent is the use of the Bulova logo and history in the U.S. as a marketing tool for non American watches, sold by a non American company. I like Asian technology and people, I recently went to Kenya and was helped by the local Chinese in delivering aid to drought ravaged areas. The Chinese just opened the high speed railway from Nirobi to Mombasa; it's really gonna help the Kenyan economy.


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## jeffaudit0821

Sevenmack said:


> Someone who buys Patek Philippe and A. Lange & Sohne, all of which start at 14 grand a pop. Certainly in the real world, any watch costing more than $400 is a luxury good; that's because it is a hefty price to pay when the average household income in the United States is $53,000 or so a year pre-tax (and considerably less post-tax). But there are collectors who wouldn't even think a $400 watch is worthy of them.


Agreed, the income disproportion is so apparent in the Watch market, really, it's like there is so little middle ground.


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## jeffaudit0821

Wolfsatz said:


> Is my watch at risk of stopping?
> 
> Does Citizen make Swiss watches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own that very model, Mauren, with the Selitta movemenr, this was an Accu Swiss line product that is now discontinued now that Bulova has been dismantled. The Accu Swiss line was great and I own 2 of them, no longer made and it is a shame!


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## simpletreasures

> now that Bulova has been dismantled


*Again,* *your opinion!

Think about it, are any of the American company's like Ford, Chevy, G E, Westinghouse, Edison and on and on, the same as they used to be?

They may not be what you'd like them to be, and they may not produce certain items or models that you first fell "in love" with, but unfortunately that's progress, I suggest everyone get over it.
*


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## John MS

jeffaudit0821 said:


> I think that is truly great performance, I think my discontent is the use of the Bulova logo and history in the U.S. as a marketing tool for non American watches, sold by a non American company. I like Asian technology and people, I recently went to Kenya and was helped by the local Chinese in delivering aid to drought ravaged areas. The Chinese just opened the high speed railway from Nirobi to Mombasa; it's really gonna help the Kenyan economy.


Bulova has a long history of using "non American" watch components in their watches. That is nothing new. Are the 1950's Bulova watches with Swiss components as troubling as the newer ones.


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## simpletreasures

John MS said:


> Bulova has a long history of using "non American" watch components in their watches. That is nothing new. Are the 1950's Bulova watches with Swiss components as troubling as the newer ones.


Too true John.

The only difference being that Bulova owned and operated their own Swiss plant.


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## T3C

oztech said:


> I am going by the fact they are not on Bulova's main page and if you type Accutron ll in their search it comes back no results found.
> I think it is sad as the Surveyor looked interesting.


It's still listed there:

https://intl.bulova.com/collections/accutron-watches


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## oztech

Interesting not listed on Bulova.com but add intl in front and they list them strange the site did not redirect me to international.


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## thatotherguy1

jeffaudit0821 said:


> ...I think my discontent is the use of the Bulova logo and history in the U.S. as a marketing tool for non American watches, sold by a non American company...


Honestly, I'd rather the name and heritage still be around and in good hands with a company that actually knows what they're doing in the industry than see the name die (or, for that matter, to see it become a mockery of its former self by sullying its name with poor products). It's unfortunate but the U.S. horological powerhouses of yore are gone and likely will never be revived; however, the names can live on with companies that are in a position to make watches under the aforementioned name. As long as Citizen continues putting Bulova's mark on quality watches, I've got no issues with it.

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## John MS

simpletreasures said:


> Too true John.
> 
> The only difference being that Bulova owned and operated their own Swiss plant.


The point I was trying to make was that where the parts were made and how the corporate structure has changed has little impact on how I enjoy watches. For me it's about design, attractiveness, fit, etc. The Swiss made Bulova Snorkel watches from the 1970's are for many of us very collectible. And subsequent ownership allowed Bulova to create several interesting Swiss made Accutron Gemini models.


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## jeffaudit0821

I'm an older guy so I miss the old ways when Americans were really in forefront, when I see Citizen remove Americans from the payroll and make money from American legacy I get sort of disappointed and frustrated; I'm still a loyal American. I bought a Chevy Malibu, assembled in Kansas City, recommended by consumer reports as a better quality car than the Nissan and Volkswagon, in fact in the top of its class. Why can't an American watch company do this? Maybe there should have been a bailout! However it is I recently got interested in some emerging American made Automatic watch companies, particularly Bradley & Smith in Illinois and the Detroit Watch company bot have models I like around $1,000 with ETA or Selitta movements like my Bulova Accu Swiss so I am going to give one of them a shot; at least some American Worker out there will benefit and the owners' showed some panache and courage that I admire.


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## Burgs

yankeexpress said:


> Kind of hoping they still release this new colorful Stars & Stripes reissue model, not sure I will buy one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bulova Taps Their Archives for the Moon Watch 2.0 and the Chronograph C "Stars and Stripes" - worn&wound


This on a red white and blue NATO would be perfect for national holidays. :-!


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## cuevobat

*Bulova is Dead Long Live Bulova

Bulova is Back!
*
For three decades they were crap on the sole of Loews corp. shoes and their watches looked the part. For three decades I wouldn't be caught dead wearing a craptastic Bulova watch. They were not considered luxury, they were not considered good, they were the 1985 Buick of watches. Cheap formerly American crap poorly made, breaking down and not delivering any value. Thanks to the great leadership of Citizen they are now making great products and earning their reputation back. Thank you Citizen/Seiko for renewing an American Icon, and here is the proof:









Since this picture has been taken I now have a Ranger too!

So I, average Swiss watch buyer has gone from, I wouldn't be caught dead on a Bulova, to owning SIX of them!

You can't be great resting on your reputation, the old Bulova proved that. Citizen proved they can remake a watch company, make great in house movements such as the Accutron II, invest in machinery and marketing, and best of all create fantastic designs. The old, so called American Bulova could do none of that. Why don't you bail out Sears, K-mart and JC Penny while you are at it? Sure, we need more poor companies, incompetently lead, and lacklusterly maned. Oh wait, Amazon has the most brilliant minds kicking their ass, maybe that's a good thing?

Would you keep a craptastic watch company afloat with a government bail out, to produce more craptastic product? That's ridiculous, what does that prove, stupidity, that's what. Citizen has made Bulova relevant again, rejoice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loews_Corporation


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## cuevobat

Here is that Ranger. Just got it.










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## jeffaudit0821

Really Beautiful


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## Samantha

Please kind in mind that this forum is for Accutron, Bulova and Caravelle watches. Some of the recent posts that did not align with that have been deleted.
Thank you.
Samantha


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## jeffaudit0821

When you get older you miss the days of American competitiveness and team work that would have kept Bulova an American Watch competitor in the International market. In the 60's I remember the Swiss looking up to our level of quality and Bulova was the star player. Now I agree that the Bulova product are a lot better than when they were under Lowes but I really like other products better, Orient Bambino is my favorite for work and the Oris for my more formal meetings. I wear my Accu Swiss Murren frequently when I have black shoes and belt on, it's still my favorite. If I'm gonna lay out over $1,000.oo for a watch I want a good automatic movement and I would prefer Americans get paid for the craftsmanship so I think my next expensive watch will be the Smith Bradley, made in Illinois with an ETA movement, great style and craftmanship! What's not to like and it gives some deserving American a good paycheck.


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## jupiter6

What craftsmanship goes into dropping preassembled imported movements into cases?


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## cuevobat

I collect great American watches, I have Bulova, Waltham, Elgin and of course Hamilton. But, that is from a day when they actually made great watches. The lesson is not to try to keep a dead corpse on life support; but, to build an amazing new industry. 

Create the next great thing. 


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## MrDagon007

jupiter6 said:


> What craftsmanship goes into dropping preassembled imported movements into cases?


In addition said cases are usually imported as well.
Assembly is craftmanship on a lower end of the value chain.


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## eljay

jeffaudit0821 said:


> When you get older you miss the days of American competitiveness and team work that would have kept Bulova an American Watch competitor in the International market.


Wouldn't it still be doing that if it was commercially possible to do so?


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## jeffaudit0821

Exactly Cuevobat, I like the Detroit Watch Company also, not to be confused with Shinola. They seem to stay around or under the $1,000 mark and the one I saw was really beautiful. What's your opinion on the Weiss products, pretty pricey!


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## arogle1stus

I've bought three (3) Bulovas since Jan 1, 2017.
First Bulova was the A11 WW2 issue. Bought in 1949
when I was 12 y. o. Loved Bulova my whole life.
Second Bulova was the Bulova 218 for use in my job
as RR Locomotive Engr. I know Bulova thru and thru.

Nuthin is forever!



X Traindriver Art


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## cuevobat

jeffaudit0821 said:


> Exactly Cuevobat, I like the Detroit Watch Company also, not to be confused with Shinola. They seem to stay around or under the $1,000 mark and the one I saw was really beautiful. What's your opinion on the Weiss products, pretty pricey!


Yes pricey and from what I can tell only assembled in the USA.

I think Fossil could on shore watch making. They now have the Swiss STP movement house and they are building higher up the food chain with Filson. Most importantly he seems to have the desire and resources to bring watch making back to the USA.

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## arogle1stus

cuevobat:
Then more power to Fossil. Bringing watch making back to the greatest
country on our planet.
Back n tha day the only watch I'd even consider laying down my bucks
for had to be American watches! The Bulova A11, the Bulova 218, the
Hammy 992b and 950b. The 992 set in 5 positions the 992b had 21 
jewels and set in 6 positions. 950b also set in 6 positions with 23 jewels.

Not chunking rocks a Swiss watches. Just like American made watches
better. Even the Ingersol $ watch. "The watch that made the $ famous"

X Traindriver Art


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## MoodyKeyboard

I completely understand the OP point of view ... I would love nothing more to only buy canadian brands only .... However it all comes down to the consumer, support and pay big bucks for good or bad quality products that are locally made and keep the local companies but we want usa or canadian brands ... Made locally but at the price we see on ali express .... No more local its a global economy ... Gotta think big if not then like great economies of past we will all be a statistic ...

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## cuevobat

MoodyKeyboard said:


> I completely understand the OP point of view ... I would love nothing more to only buy canadian brands only .... However it all comes down to the consumer, support and pay big bucks for good or bad quality products that are locally made and keep the local companies but we want usa or canadian brands ... Made locally but at the price we see on ali express .... No more local its a global economy ... Gotta think big if not then like great economies of past we will all be a statistic ...
> 
> Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


Yes we all want Ali prices I have to admit. But if we could get a watch with an American movement made in the USA with the quality of a good Swiss for $1000 - $2000 would enough people buy it. Possibly.

What do you think?

I think it could be done for that price; but the tooling costs would need to be amortized over a lot of watches. That's why I think on shoring STP would make this feasible and Fossil could sell the numbers to make it work.

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## MrDagon007

It doesn't really matter for me where something is made, as long as it is good. I want to reward quality companies. Though it must be said that I am favourably predisposed towards German or Japanese products.


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## cuevobat

MrDagon007 said:


> It doesn't really matter for me where something is made, as long as it is good. I want to reward quality companies. Though it must be said that I am favourably predisposed towards German or Japanese products.


On the whole I have experienced that most; but certainly not all Swiss, German and Japanese companies have a certain level of pride in the value and quality of their products. They also have a minimum level of quality they will not go below. Products from Russia are the next level down in minimum quality, then China and the rest of Asia. That's not to say that they don't make quality products just that the minimums are lower and often price too. In my experience.

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## TMH478

yankeexpress said:


> Citizen needs to adopt the Precisionist movement and make a solar charged version. The current Eco-Drives are too fragile when dropped.


Yes!! Definitely needs the Precisionist movement! That would be fantastic!


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## jeffaudit0821

McDagoon007 I am really impressed with the Orient line of Automatic Watches, espically for the price. A watch repair guy I met in Montreal showed me a Polich line of watches, Gurlach, that are pretty amazing, nice workmanship with ETA and Miyota movements, they are scheduled to come out with their own movement in 2019, beautiful stuff, check out the website


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## jeffaudit0821

Totally agreed Moodykeyboard, like I was just talking about a line of watches a watch repair man in Montreal carries, Gurlach, from Poland, he told me about Poland's history in craftsmanship that I was not aware of. Icredible look stuff and you can buy direct online and with their recent political issues it might be sort of cheap when you convert to the dollar.


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## jeffaudit0821

cuevobat, really that sound nice, I like the Hamilton line and own a Certina DS 80 that I adore. Fossil really is an incredible company


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## Samantha

Once again, this forum is for Accutron, Bulova, and Caravelle. This thread has repeatedly strayed off topic from the original post and is now locked.
Samantha


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