# Seagull Movemnets as good as Swiss movements?



## wmjsajudge

I have been wondering how good are seagull movements anyway? Are they as good as an ETA or valjou movement? And if not why not? Are the swiss movements that much better built,really? From what I have been reading they are the Rolex of the Chinese Market.So what I mean is there any of the movements equal to that of high end Swiss made watches?Im learning so as much info would be helpful. Thanks :-!


----------



## gigfy

I would think that the tourbillons, minute repeaters, & perpetual calendars would be top of the line in quality but maybe not as well finished as the Swiss $100K movements. I wouldn't know personally, but I did read that in a nice article about Chinese watches in IW magazine.

For movements I can actually afford, our friendly neighborhood watchmaker gave a pretty good endorsement for the ST2130 (ETA 2824 equivalent).



> The Seagull, however, is not "just a copy" of he ETA 2824-2. It is a re-engineered version of the ETA 2824-2. Unnecessary, wasteful and difficult processes have been removed and a more simplified process put in their place. This is another way Seagull can spend more time on making the outside pretty, without increasing the production time and thus controlling the cost.
> 
> Which one would I use in a watch, if I were to make one (on a mass scale)? The Seagull.


https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=216945

Cheers,
gigfy


----------



## Back

What makes a good movement good? 
The watch/clock keeps ticking, but why are some movements considered better then others - is it the time spent on making it? The craftsmanship?


----------



## Mtech

Back said:


> What makes a good movement good?
> The watch/clock keeps ticking, but why are some movements considered better then others - is it the time spent on making it? The craftsmanship?


A Corolla is a great car, gets you A to B economically, but a E-Class is just a bit nicer ride.

The difference in good movements and great movements is very subjective, some want robust construction and a legacy of reliability, others want top engineering, style and luxury and are willing to pay extra.

We should be very pleased that we can appreciate all levels of WIS economics and still arrive at our meetings on time regardless of what we strap on our wrists.:-!


----------



## lysanderxiii

wmjsajudge said:


> I have been wondering how good are seagull movements anyway? *Are they as good as an ETA or valjou movement?* And if not why not? Are the swiss movements that much better built,really? From what I have been reading they are the Rolex of the Chinese Market.So what I mean is there any of the _*movements equal to that of high end Swiss made watches*_?Im learning so as much info would be helpful. Thanks :-!


Yes and no.

The movements are every bit as reliable, robust and accurate a timekeeper as the Standard grade ETA movements, and Seagull could match the higher grades, in all probability if they chose to.

But, there are the little non-essential things that detract from appearance, shellac with bubbles in it, poor clean up on the underside of the bridges. One of the wonderful things about ETAs in the past (around 2000) was they were very affordable, under $50, maybe as low as $35, a unit for a Standard grade 2824-2 depending on the size of the order. For that kind of price, the superficial appearance related advantages of "Swiss Made" were worth it. Now, that the price of an ETA 2824-2 has increases several times, the Seagull (and the Hangzhou, which, by the way, I like a tiny bit more) are a better value, as they still mechanically work as well, and they are better decorated.

There are just two things I wish Seagull would do that would improve the apparent quality of their movements: 1) reduce the thickness of the chrome plate or switch to hard chrome, nickel or rhodium plating, and 2) increase the cutter speed and reduce the feed speed when making the Côte de Genève (or switch to a brass disc with grinding compound.)

_By "high end" do you mean Vacheron Constantin or Piaget etc, with their really expensive stuff they possibly, [EDIT: probably] not, but I haven't had a chance to compare..._


----------



## Chascomm

If you regard ETA and Valjoux (also ETA) as the 'high end' of Swiss mechanical movements, what then is the low end? :-s

The Chinese 'high end' is not anywhere as high as the Swiss high end, however when you look at complicated movements like tourbillons, then the difference in value becomes obvious. $60,000 in a Swiss tourbillon gets you a basic tourbillon, no additional complications, in a simple case, or a Chinese tourbillon, finished in Switzerland, in a really nice case. The same money in a Chinese watch would get you a double-tourbillon, or a single-tourbillon with minute repeater, in a really nice custom case. Either way would be largely 'hand-made'. For 1% of that price, you can get a basic Chinese tourbillon in a simple steel or gold-tone case; or from Switzerland, a basic ETA auto in a waterproof steel case.

Really, there is only so far you can take the comparison due to the price difference. That may change however, if the Swatch Group have any success with their new budget mechanical movements (including chronograph). That fact that they have bothered to introduce new entry-level movements suggests to me that they are reacting to the Chinese, because the Chinese watch industry have figured out what the buyers really want; affordable luxury that sacrifices some refinement but offers more added features. I mean, if I just want something that tells the time, I can look at my phone.


----------



## testdig

Here is the latest watch with ST2130 26 jewels movement, looks terrific!










bigger one


----------



## linsook

How would, say Beijing's "Playing Dragon and Phoenix" watch, rank in terms of craftsmanship among the Swiss offerings? Ignoring price, which comes in at a measly 150K USD, would it be safe to assume that quality and craftsmanship is on par with the upper tiers of the Swiss watch industry?

Link


----------



## testdig

linsook said:


> How would, say Beijing's "Playing Dragon and Phoenix" watch, rank in terms of craftsmanship among the Swiss offerings? Ignoring price, which comes in at a measly 150K USD, would it be safe to assume that quality and craftsmanship is on par with the upper tiers of the Swiss watch industry?
> 
> Link


LOL, buddy, the "Playing Dragon and Phoenix" translation is so coool :-!
I'm saving money for "Pocket watch to commemorate the sixtieth anniversary of founding of the Republic", too many watches are in my want list ... o|


----------



## Stone Hill

It is a little different then cars. As it is about time keeping. I would think Seagull can make a movement that keeps just as good as time.


----------



## Chascomm

linsook said:


> How would, say Beijing's "Playing Dragon and Phoenix" watch, rank in terms of craftsmanship among the Swiss offerings? Ignoring price, which comes in at a measly 150K USD, would it be safe to assume that quality and craftsmanship is on par with the upper tiers of the Swiss watch industry?
> 
> Link


I think you can safely assume the craftmanship on this particular watch would match the very best of Switzerland. No Chinese watch before it has ever had so much work go into it, and I can't see that kind of effort happening again too often.


----------



## gigfy

testdig said:


> LOL, buddy, the "Playing Dragon and Phoenix" translation is so coool :-!
> I'm saving money for "Pocket watch to commemorate the sixtieth anniversary of founding of the Republic", too many watches are in my want list ... o|


I was just looking at that watch yesterday. Very nice! I would like to get a pocket watch but am afraid I would want a Beijing, Ouyi, Sea-Gull, Meihualu, Orient, Orient Star Seiko, etc. I will wait until I win the lottery to buy some pocket watches! :-d

BTW, I believe the Beijing pocket watch has a Hangzhou 9000 movement. Do they have some sort of agreement? Or are the Beijing commemorative watches made by Hangzhou?

Cheers,
gigfy


----------



## testdig

gigfy, I have same concerns/questions as yours, I would ask these questions to BJWAF and update you if could get any answers.


----------



## aron

I feel compelled to post that "dragon & phoenix" watch's photo. It's just too breathtaking!


----------



## munno

wow, that is just, stunning.


----------



## Back

That is some serious bling!

Can't make up my mind if I like it or not, there is something that is attractive but I would never wear that much gold!


----------



## linsook

aron said:


> I feel compelled to post that "dragon & phoenix" watch's photo. It's just too breathtaking!


Ya, its beautiful.

I've been browsing the site, they have a lot of amazing watches.

Athena:










A piece from their partnership with Jinmao which Chascomm posted about and a production model to the prototype gigfy posted - crystal plates:


----------



## Chascomm

Getting back to the question of comparisons of the top end of Swiss and Chinese watches; consider the watch depicted below _(thanks Linsook for digging that up)_

- The sapphire plates are formed using a process patented by Jinmao and used nowhere else in the world.

- The base movement was designed by Master Xu, China's most senior watchmaker (in the business for more than 50 years now!)

- The dual tourbillon (a complication rare even in Switzerland) features a differential device to balance the two escapements that is patented by BWaF.

- The tourbillon cages are formed from titanium; a feature found only on the better Swiss tourbillons.










Interestingly the set-lever (and probably other components) comes from the humble Chinese Standard Movement. The use of off-the-shelf components like that is something you probably won't find in the top Swiss movements, which are made by elite companies who have no idea about practical watchmaking. And therein lies the biggest difference between the Chinese and Swiss top end. In China, even elites like BWaF have risen from a tradition of practical mass-market watchmaking. In Switzerland the elite watchmakers are entirely seperate and are probably far less of a reflection of the industry as a whole than their counterparts in China.


----------



## Chascomm

As the question was originally about Sea-Gull (with comparisons made to ETA products), consider the following: 

Sea-Gull is set to become the world's biggest manufacturer of mechanical watch movements. Their ST6 has been a mainstay of cheap auto watches te world over for decades, and the ST16 is set to become one of the world's most ubiquitous auto (especially with the quantities being finished by Claro-Semag in Switzerland). And yet, this same company also makes dual-tourbillons, minute-repeaters and perpetual-calendars! In Switzerland GP, PP, AP, UN, JLC etc, etc, do not make ordinary watches. ETA do not make tourbillons. 

ETA do however make chronographs. They've just developed a new low-cost auto chrono (resorting to some manufacturing techniques last found in Swiss pin-levers of the 1970s). I wonder what prompted that? :think: And a column-wheel chrono... What was driving the demand for such an obscure feature? :think: Could it have anything to do with certain Swiss manufacturers in recent years choosing the Sea-Gull ST19 in preference to a Swiss movement?

As for the bread-and-butter automatic movements from ETA; they're facing competition from within Switzerland from the likes of Sellita, Soprod and Valanvron. Keep an eye on that last name. Valanvron seem to be buying ST18 and ST21 ebauches. Let's see how they go in the next few years.

The Unitas equivalent ST36 is available in a wider variety of finishes that the off-the-shelf offerings of ETA, and the quality seems to be there. Sure you can get a much nicer custom-finished Unitas from an aftermarket finisher, but for that you pay for the cost of a fully built-up ETA Unitas plus the cost of custom parts and finishing. Rapidly diminishing returns there... 

From what I've read, some watch companies that had previously favoured the Moljina 3602 as a more interesting and affordable alternative to the ETA-Unitas have now switched to ST36 (and Hangzhou 9000). It would not surprise me if ETA start turning out a new budget Unitas, or selectively reverse their 'no ebauches' policy, just to retain a big enough market share to justify keeping the Unitas.


----------



## munno

that is some cool information and food for thought. Thanks Chascomm.


----------



## Silent Speaker

Chascomm said:


> As the question was originally about Sea-Gull (with comparisons made to ETA products), consider the following:
> 
> Sea-Gull is set to become the world's biggest manufacturer of mechanical watch movements. Their ST6 has been a mainstay of cheap auto watches te world over for decades, and the ST16 is set to become one of the world's most ubiquitous auto (especially with the quantities being finished by Claro-Semag in Switzerland). And yet, this same company also makes dual-tourbillons, minute-repeaters and perpetual-calendars! In Switzerland GP, PP, AP, UN, JLC etc, etc, do not make ordinary watches. ETA do not make tourbillons.
> 
> ETA do however make chronographs. They've just developed a new low-cost auto chrono (resorting to some manufacturing techniques last found in Swiss pin-levers of the 1970s). I wonder what prompted that? :think: And a column-wheel chrono... What was driving the demand for such an obscure feature? :think: Could it have anything to do with certain Swiss manufacturers in recent years choosing the Sea-Gull ST19 in preference to a Swiss movement?
> 
> As for the bread-and-butter automatic movements from ETA; they're facing competition from within Switzerland from the likes of Sellita, Soprod and Valanvron. Keep an eye on that last name. Valanvron seem to be buying ST18 and ST21 ebauches. Let's see how they go in the next few years.
> 
> The Unitas equivalent ST36 is available in a wider variety of finishes that the off-the-shelf offerings of ETA, and the quality seems to be there. Sure you can get a much nicer custom-finished Unitas from an aftermarket finisher, but for that you pay for the cost of a fully built-up ETA Unitas plus the cost of custom parts and finishing. Rapidly diminishing returns there...
> 
> From what I've read, some watch companies that had previously favoured the Moljina 3602 as a more interesting and affordable alternative to the ETA-Unitas have now switched to ST36 (and Hangzhou 9000). It would not surprise me if ETA start turning out a new budget Unitas, or selectively reverse their 'no ebauches' policy, just to retain a big enough market share to justify keeping the Unitas.


So, in a nutshell: Interesting times ahead.......?


----------



## testdig

gigfy said:


> I was just looking at that watch yesterday. Very nice! I would like to get a pocket watch but am afraid I would want a Beijing, Ouyi, Sea-Gull, Meihualu, Orient, Orient Star Seiko, etc. I will wait until I win the lottery to buy some pocket watches! :-d
> 
> BTW, I believe the Beijing pocket watch has a Hangzhou 9000 movement. Do they have some sort of agreement? Or are the Beijing commemorative watches made by Hangzhou?
> 
> Cheers,
> gigfy


Hi gigfy, I post the question to BWaf online Q&A system, their answer is BWaf purchased the Hangzhou 9000 movement (so-called Ébauche? I'm not quite sure meaning of Ébauche) and made the Beijing commemorative watches them-self with the movement.


----------



## Back

testdig said:


> Hi gigfy, I post the question to BWaf online Q&A system, their answer is BWaf purchased the Hangzhou 9000 movement (so-called Ébauche? I'm not quite sure meaning of Ébauche) and made the Beijing commemorative watches them-self with the movement.


The ébauch refers to the basic movement. 
A manufacturer may then add complications or decorate the movement; it is also possible that the manufacturer will add higher grade components. Basically it is an unassembled movement to my understanding


----------



## lysanderxiii

Back said:


> The ébauch refers to the basic movement....


close.

ébauche translates from French to "outline". An ébauche is all of the parts in rough or semi-finished, unassembled form (depending on just how finished the buyer wants it).

A kit is the best description, all the parts are there, and can be refinished as well as the builder wished, and can even replace or modify parts as he desires.


----------



## Seele

linsook said:


> How would, say Beijing's "Playing Dragon and Phoenix" watch, rank in terms of craftsmanship among the Swiss offerings? Ignoring price, which comes in at a measly 150K USD, would it be safe to assume that quality and craftsmanship is on par with the upper tiers of the Swiss watch industry?


Linsook,

I have been dipping in at this thread for a little while now, here are my thoughts.

The title of this thread asks if Sea-Gull movements are as good as Swiss movements. So it's about the inherent designs of the mechanisms, and the quality of engineering to turn the designs from drawings into real products.

Certainly, the watch you gave us as an example of Chinese craftsmanship demonstrates that Chinese watchmakers are capable of works of extremely high calibre in terms of engraving and decoration. However, should he choose to do the same thing to a poorly designed watch movement, it does not make the movement a good one that functions any better than before.

IMHO this is quite OT and irrelevant to our topic.


----------



## linsook

Seele said:


> Linsook,
> 
> I have been dipping in at this thread for a little while now, here are my thoughts.
> 
> The title of this thread asks if Sea-Gull movements are as good as Swiss movements. So it's about the inherent designs of the mechanisms, and the quality of engineering to turn the designs from drawings into real products.
> 
> Certainly, the watch you gave us as an example of Chinese craftsmanship demonstrates that Chinese watchmakers are capable of works of extremely high calibre in terms of engraving and decoration. However, should he choose to do the same thing to a poorly designed watch movement, it does not make the movement a good one that functions any better than before.
> 
> IMHO this is quite OT and irrelevant to our topic.


Keep on dipping.

Edit: Ya, you're right, maybe you should ask the mods to delete the OT posts.


----------



## Davon1970

I have had several Seagull watches over the years, and Swiss...I have a story to tell you...


----------



## Davon1970

I know this is an old thread, but I want to share my experience with you. In 2012, I purchased a Parnis Deepsea Homage with a Seagull 17 Jewel movement. I'm wearing it as I type. In 2014, I purchased a Steinhart Vintage Ocean One with an ETA 2824. It's sitting on my dresser, dead, has been, for the last year and a half. Now, let's Back up to November 2017.

I was en route to Germany via London, to see family. I was about to touch down at Heathrow and was getting ready to reset my Steinhart, that I was immensely proud of (it was the first and only Swiss watch I've ever owned; actually, No, I did have a Swatch in College that I'd purchased in Cologne in 2002...Sorry, memories from those years are hazy, college student and all...I digress... I prefer to spend money on travel, but I confess I have a weakness for watches). I unscrew the crown, pull out the pin, and it keeps...going. The pin falls out on the floor of the airliner to my shock and horror. I immediately asked a stewardess to bring me one of those watches I'd lusted after in the sky mag; it was a measly $75 but I lamented the fact it was a veretable toy with it's battery powered movement. I kept my Steinhart, had a great trip, and made my way home a few weeks later. The Parnis immediately went back on my wrist and the battery powered toy got sold on ebay. 

To their credit, Steinhart offered to repair the watch, but the shipping and costs would have been on me. I went to my local watch guy, and the cost to repair would have been basically the same as I originally paid for it, so that was a lose-lose, too. He's not a fan of these type of watches (retired naval officer he is, very much a believer in utilitarianism, and has a penchant for Seiko and Tags). 

So back to my Parnis. The watch cost a quarter of what the Steinhart did. It's undergone one brutal beating after another; I've tried to break it, and it won't even so much as scratch. To say it's my workhorse is an understatement! The hardlex domed crystal has been bludgeoned ten times over by tennis rackets, drum sticks, kid's toys, etc...but not even a scratch is present. It's been dropped. It's been skin dived and snorkeled with. It is accurate, far more accurate than the ETA. 

I don't know if Parnis accidentally created a masterpiece with this watch that I paid $125 for, but they did something damn amazing. I think Rolex couldn't have done better, in all honesty. I have some friends that own Rolexes and I'm tempted to run time tests with them to see whose is more accurate. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking with it!


----------



## coachstu

If they were, you and everyone else here would be willing to pay a lot more for Chinese watches. But I don't see that happening. Money talks.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

coachstu said:


> If they were, you and everyone else here would be willing to pay a lot more for Chinese watches. But I don't see that happening. Money talks.


You obviously haven't seen the high end watches that Sea-Gull makes. Sea-Gull has some watches that cost over 5000usd.

https://www.sea-gullmall.com/goods/detail/id/220/is_custom/0.html
https://www.sea-gullmall.com/goods/detail/id/245/is_custom/0.html

They even have one that is priced at 100K usd. 
See it here:
https://www.sea-gullmall.com/goods/detail/id/235/is_custom/0.html

Who buys them?
Well, there is a huge explosion of "new money folks" in China these days.


----------



## coachstu

Monkey_like_watch said:


> You obviously haven't seen the high end watches that Sea-Gull makes. Sea-Gull has some watches that cost over 5000usd.
> 
> https://www.sea-gullmall.com/goods/detail/id/220/is_custom/0.html
> https://www.sea-gullmall.com/goods/detail/id/245/is_custom/0.html


Send me a link to the first person who posts on this forum who spent $5,000 on a Sea-Gull watch. Then we'll talk. BTW, the link you posted to these $5,000 watches is still trying to load. That doesn't speak well.


----------



## DiverBob

gigfy said:


> I would think that the tourbillons, minute repeaters, & perpetual calendars would be top of the line in quality but maybe not as well finished as the Swiss $100K movements. I wouldn't know personally, but I did read that in a nice article about Chinese watches in IW magazine.
> 
> For movements I can actually afford, our friendly neighborhood watchmaker gave a pretty good endorsement for the ST2130 (ETA 2824 equivalent).
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=216945
> 
> Cheers,
> gigfy


I have the ST2130 and it is smooth and accurate


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

coachstu said:


> Send me a link to the first person who posts on this forum who spent $5,000 on a Sea-Gull watch. Then we'll talk. BTW, the link you posted to these $5,000 watches is still trying to load. That doesn't speak well.


It is Sea-Gull's official mall; you might need to change your translation settings on your browser. FYI, the fact that you can't figure out how to adjust your browser settings isn't Sea-Gull's fault.

Lastly, you won't see someone here with one of these watches because these aren't available outside of China, and I have absolute nothing to prove to you. 
I know the reality of high-end Chinese watches, but your ignorance of this reality is not my problem to fix.


----------



## coachstu

Monkey_like_watch said:


> It is Sea-Gull's official mall; you might need to change your translation settings on your browser. FYI, the fact that you can't figure out how to adjust your browser settings isn't Sea-Gull's fault.
> 
> Lastly, you won't see someone here with one of these watches because these aren't available outside of China, and I have absolute nothing to prove to you.
> I know the reality of high-end Chinese watches, but your ignorance of this reality is not my problem to fix.


Yes? What's the oldest Sea Gull watch you own?


----------



## Brian.Cohen

If by 'good' it means accurate, durable and dependable, then yes. It's well known by members on this forum that some have Seagulls that are decades old.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

coachstu said:


> Yes? What's the oldest Sea Gull watch you own?


An ST5 movement made in the 1970's.

From the Chinese Watch Wiki:
The ST5 is a 19 jewel, manual winding mechanical watch movement which was manufactured by the Tianjin Watch Factory from 1966 until 19xx. It was the first movement to be 100% designed and produced in China using Chinese tooling, and it was first used in DongFeng brand watches. The ST5 met the National First Grade standard, which may have been a factor in the Tianjin factory being granted an exemption from production of the Chinese standard movement (Tongji). The ST5 movement is prized by collectors for its distinctive 'Sea-Gull Stripes' decoration comprising graceful radiating arcs engraved deeply on the plates.Due to the hand-finishing, no two are exactly alike.

Found here:
http://chinesewatchwiki.net/ST5


----------



## coachstu

Monkey_like_watch said:


> An ST5 movement made in the 1970's.
> 
> From the Chinese Watch Wiki:
> The ST5 is a 19 jewel, manual winding mechanical watch movement which was manufactured by the Tianjin Watch Factory from 1966 until 19xx. It was the first movement to be 100% designed and produced in China using Chinese tooling, and it was first used in DongFeng brand watches. The ST5 met the National First Grade standard, which may have been a factor in the Tianjin factory being granted an exemption from production of the Chinese standard movement (Tongji). The ST5 movement is prized by collectors for its distinctive 'Sea-Gull Stripes' decoration comprising graceful radiating arcs engraved deeply on the plates.Due to the hand-finishing, no two are exactly alike.
> 
> Found here:
> ST5 - Chinese Watch Wiki


You could have just shown a picture.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

coachstu said:


> You could have just shown a picture.


You didn't ask for a picture, and a picture doesn't tell you the age of something. That is why we use words.


----------



## coachstu

Monkey_like_watch said:


> You didn't ask for a picture, and a picture doesn't tell you the age of something. That is why we use words.


I asked you about your oldest Seagull watch. You posted information and a link regarding a movement. Not actually a watch. So I ask for a picture. If I were going to spend $5,000 on a WATCH, I would like it if there were a significant track record by the company making the watch. If other aspects of the WATCH are inferior, that's probably going to speak to the caliber of the movement as well. This is basic stuff man. It's why we actually read those words you were talking about.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

coachstu said:


> I asked you about your oldest Seagull watch.


Yes, you did, and I replied an ST5 movement from the 1970's.



coachstu said:


> So I ask for a picture.


No, you didn't ask for a picture, and you still haven't asked for a picture.

You asked me: 
What's the oldest Sea Gull watch you own?

I replied: 
An ST5 movement made in the 1970's. 
Then I shared info about the ST5 movement from the Chinese Watch Wiki.

Then you replied:
You could have just shown a picture.

FYI, that is still not asking for a picture.



coachstu said:


> I would like it if there were a significant track record by the company making the watch.


HAHA!
This is a joke? Right?

I am not here to teach you the history of Tianjin Sea-Gull (founded in 1955) , which happens to be * the world's largest manufacturer of mechanical watch movements*, producing one quarter of total global production by volume.

There is a wonderful invention called Google that can help you find the answers you seek. In the meantime, here is the Wiki link to Tianjin Sea-Gull. Educate yo'self! :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin_Seagull


----------



## coachstu

Monkey_like_watch said:


> No, you didn't ask for a picture, and you still haven't asked for a picture.
> 
> You asked me:
> What's the oldest Sea Gull watch you own?
> 
> I replied:
> An ST5 movement made in the 1970's.
> Then I shared info about the ST5 movement from the Chinese Watch Wiki.
> 
> Then you replied:
> You could have just shown a picture.
> That is still not asking for a picture.
> 
> Lastly, I am not here to teach you the history of Tianjin Sea-Gull (founded in 1955) , which happens to be * the world's largest manufacturer of mechanical watch movements*, producing one quarter of total global production by volume.
> 
> There is a wonderful invention called Google that can help you find the answers you seek. In the mean time, here is the Wiki link to Tianjin Sea-Gull. Educate yo'self! :
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin_Seagull


If you're going to go thread to thread being this advocate for Seagull, even implying their products are worth spending $5,000 on, you might expect someone to challenge your opinion at some point. That's a disservice to everyone here. If you're going to tout a watch for that kind of money, you should expect someone to challenge that, and to point out to others that spending big money on a watch brand that has very few examples of their vintage work is a BAD idea. I'm looking real hard for 40 year old Seagull watches for sale, and I'm not finding many. Which is quite strange for *the world's largest manufacturer of mechanical watch movements*. And the few I have ran across have basically no value. Why is that? I'll answer that. Because the watches were of very poor quality. But now we're supposed to believe they've turned the corner and command prices on the same level as Omega. You know, that could actually be true. But you've got no basis at all to make that claim and the fact that no one else is spending that kind of money on Seagull watches just proves my point.

That's your history lesson. A history of inferior watches. That is undeniable.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

coachstu said:


> If you're going to go thread to thread being this advocate for Seagull, even implying their products are worth spending $5,000 on, you might expect someone to challenge your opinion at some point. That's a disservice to everyone here. If you're going to tout a watch for that kind of money, you should expect someone to challenge that, and to point out to others that spending big money on a watch brand that has very few examples of their vintage work is a BAD idea. I'm looking real hard for 40 year old Seagull watches for sale, and I'm not finding many. Which is quite strange for *the world's largest manufacturer of mechanical watch movements*. And the few I have ran across have basically no value. Why is that? I'll answer that. Because the watches were of very poor quality. But now we're supposed to believe they've turned the corner and command prices on the same level as Omega. You know, that could actually be true. But you've got no basis at all to make that claim and the fact that no one else is spending that kind of money on Seagull watches just proves my point.
> 
> That's your history lesson. A history of inferior watches. That is undeniable.


HAHA! Your ignorance of Chinese mechanical watches is laughable. Cheap doesn't equate inferior. That is just ignorant. 
Do you even know about the ZuanShi SM1A-K? It is a near chronometer movement made in China that can be bought for less than 20usd. You really don't know what you are talking about, but I forgive your ignorance. I didn't know about Chinese watches until I moved to China.

First, I don't expect that you or anyone outside of China would spend that kind of money on a Sea-Gull. Heck, I won't even buy one for that money. 
These watches are made for the Chinese market not the international market.

Second, you can't find good Sea-Gull watches outside of China because they don't sell many outside China. That is just a fact of the marketing. Why go outside China when they have 1.4 billion possible customers?

Lastly, you aren't going to change my mind about how good Sea-Gull watches are because I know the truth, as do other members on this forum.


----------



## coachstu

Monkey_like_watch said:


> HAHA! Your ignorance of Chinese mechanical watches is laughable. Cheap doesn't equate inferior. That is just ignorant.
> Do even know about the ZuanShi SM1A-K? Do you? It is a near chronometer movement made in China that can be bought for less than 20usd. You really don't know what you are talking about, but I forgive your ignorance. I didn't know about Chinese watches until I moved to China.
> 
> First, I don't expect that you or anyone outside of China would spend that kind of money on a Sea-Gull. Heck, I won't even buy one for that money.
> These watches are made for the Chinese market not the international market.
> 
> Second, you can't find good Sea-Gull watches outside of China because they don't sell many outside China. That is just a fact of the marketing. Why go outside China when they have 1.4 billion possible customers?
> 
> BTW, I own an Omega, a 1963 Jumbo Constellation. I don't even wear my Sea-Gulls anymore to be honest. Honestly, I have sold off most of my Sea-Gull watches and vintage Chinese watches because I love wearing my vintage Omega.
> You aren't going to change my mind about how good Sea-Gull watches are because I know the truth, as do other members on this forum.


There are a few vintage Seagull watches on Ebay. They are asking anywhere from $25 to $75. They do not have a track record that would in any rational person's mind justify a $5,000 price tag. Not even a $1,000 price tag. And to suggest otherwise is going to draw criticism. And you want to say I'm the ignorant one? Go ahead man. Put your money where you mouth is and buy that $5,000 Seagull. Do it!

And trust me, you do not know vintage watches and their values better than me. So don't talk to me like I'm an idiot. I wouldn't dare try and justify $5,000 for a Seagull watch even if it came with an actual Seagull. I don't refrain from buying Seagulls because their Chinese. I refrain from buying them because for many years, they were inferior watches, and there is absolutely no indication they are worth that kind of money.

Lastly, I don't think I said to anyone here to not buy a Seagull watch or movement. I simply am not going to let you float that big price tag around this forum without calling you out. In my opinion, they are $200 to $250 watches at best. Which, wow, what a surprise, is real close to what the company itself thinks they're worth. And they can be bought at that price all day. Part of paying big money for a watch is the expectation that it's going to hold its value in the future upon resell. And you can't point to one thing that even remotely suggests a Seagull watch will retain its value. Not one thing!!!

Enjoy your watches. That's all that matters.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

coachstu said:


> And trust me, you do not know vintage watches and their values better than me.


Hahahaha!
You make me laugh. You know nothing about me.

I do know vintage watches. I know vintage watches very well. I am also on the vintage watch forum here on WUS.

The watch I wear the most right now is my 1963 Omega Jumbo Constellation. A rare 37mm size that was only available in the Asian market.

Thanks for the laughs, buddy!

See post 129:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/*-**-***-wruw-june-2019-***-**-*-4964967-13.html#post49142779


----------



## Bucks

This thread has got me to thinking...I wonder how popular Seagull watches are in China and how long before they are recognised internationally? The West seem to have a stigma regarding Chinese made. Some Chinese products are very well made. I hear every now and then from people in Australia, experiences like this "I bought a cheap Chinese powerdrill and it's still going but another I bought from a reputable manufacturer didn't last as long'. I believe that Seagull are approaching Seiko quality and are certainly aiming to surpass Seiko. My guess is the stigma attached to Chinese made will be a memory in my lifetime (my father says he remembers when Japanese made was synonymous with junk). Hell, there was a time when Swiss made was junk! Time will tell!


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

Bucks said:


> This thread has got me to thinking...I wonder how popular Seagull watches are in China and how long before they are recognised internationally? The West seem to have a stigma regarding Chinese made. Some Chinese products are very well made. I hear every now and then from people in Australia, experiences like this "I bought a cheap Chinese powerdrill and it's still going but another I bought from a reputable manufacturer didn't last as long'. I believe that Seagull are approaching Seiko quality and are certainly aiming to surpass Seiko. My guess is the stigma attached to Chinese made will be a memory in my lifetime (my father says he remembers when Japanese made was synonymous with junk). Hell, there was a time when Swiss made was junk! Time will tell!


They are very well loved in China by the Chinese and the foreigners.(I have sold more than a handful of Sea-Gulls to three different colleagues and they all love their Sea-Gull watches.) Actually, I am now down to just two Sea-Gulls, an ST5 blue dial and a brand new watch I won in an auction that I am contemplating keeping. It retails for over 1600rmb and I got it for 500rmb.

I read reviews where the Chinese write about how happy they are to support a Chinese brand, or bought watches for themselves or their parents because their parents knew the brand when they were younger.
As far as sales: I believe a bulk of Sea-Gull's business is coming from their WeChat store. Once I authenticated my Sea-Gull watches, I added the store to my WeChat. They are big on WeChat promotions and running weekly/monthly specials through WeChat. Shanghai Watch Co. is the same. I have their store on WeChat and they run many promotions though the app. Everyone has WeChat in China. EVERYONE!

Also, as far as advanced movements, I think Sea-Gull has Seiko beat. Don't get me wrong, the Grand Seiko is a wonderful watch with an exceptional movement, but Sea-Gull is working on some very advanced movements. 
Here is one example. 
"Tianjin Seagull has recently gained substantial expertise in the manufacture of advanced tourbillons including a multi-axial orbital tourbillon movement" from Wiki. 
Does Seiko even make a tourbillion?

Also, from Chascomm's post #19 in this thread:
this same company(Sea-Gull) also makes dual-tourbillons, minute-repeaters and perpetual-calendars!

I don't know if they will ever get worldwide recognition though. It seems as though Sea-Gull is quite content staying in China and selling solely to the Chinese market. 
They had some international online stores a few years ago, but it seems like most of those have gone away. As far as I know, Kevin at EOL Outlet is the only international seller besides the few for sale at Long Island Watch.


----------



## mythless

Marketing and perception is everything in today's world. Sadly, Seagull doesn't care about the market outside China as MLW stated. I can understand the hesitancy in spending $500USD on a Seagull watch when there is a lot of competition but, this is solely from a Canadian view point. I am sure European market is different and I know the American market is the most competitive and has the "best" prices so, it's a tough market. Plus, with the stereotypical stigma, it's hard.

There are plenty of anecdotal evidence that Seagull's watches/movement are of good quality (my ST5 has been running fine and quite accurately too despite the amount of magnetization it constantly receives) and quite reliable.


----------



## mythless

Marketing and perception is everything in today's world. Sadly, Seagull doesn't have it outside China as MLW stated. I can understand the hesitancy in spending $500USD on a Seagull watch when there is a lot of competition but, this is solely from a Canadian view point. I am sure European market is different and I know the American market is the most competitive and has the "best" prices so, it's a tough market. Plus, with the stereotypical stigma, it's hard.

There are plenty of anecdotal evidence that Seagull's watches/movement are of good quality (my ST5 has been running fine and quite accurately too despite the amount of magnetization it constantly receives) and quite reliable.


----------



## seagullfan

mythless said:


> Marketing and perception is everything in today's world. Sadly, Seagull doesn't have it outside China as MLW stated. I can understand the hesitancy in spending $500USD on a Seagull watch when there is a lot of competition but, this is solely from a Canadian view point. I am sure European market is different and I know the American market is the most competitive and has the "best" prices so, it's a tough market. Plus, with the stereotypical stigma, it's hard.
> 
> There are plenty of anecdotal evidence that Seagull's watches/movement are of good quality (my ST5 has been running fine and quite accurately too despite the amount of magnetization it constantly receives) and quite reliable.


But it's not simply down to marketing and perception unfortunately... I'm a big Seagullfan (check out the username  ) but I can see there is a clear gap between Seagull watches and say Omega ones - and not just purely down to marketing.

For one - and very important aspect to a consumer - is servicing and aftersales service - on another thread I said I could buy a citizen and send it back to them to for a repair/service, buy an Omega and take it to the boutique for some perrier and pay through the nose for servicing but with Seagull unfortunately if I'm outside of China I'm pretty much out of luck (I send mine back to China to give to a local family member to take it to a watch servicing centre - not everyone is in the same position). With my Beijing watch I couldn't even find a Chinese authorised servicing centre even when I contacted them directly. Aftersales will create a large cost for the manufacturers and the Chinese aftersales service is (from a European's eyes) non-existent - this won't encourage many people to buy a watch to keep for a long time and may result in people seeing Chinese watches as "toys" to replace as movements start breaking down.

When my ST2130 powered sea-dragon king needed a service I was happy to pay for a service even when it cost more than buying a new movement itself - why? Because for me it's the idea of mechanical watches in the first place - if you're just going to toss out an old movement instead of refurbishing/servicing it then it's a terrible reflection on the "consume and trash" society.

One other shady thing that I have always wondered about (again I'm a big Chinese watch fan - but realistic) is - if Seagull make so many movements then what does it do with all of them??? It only uses a fraction of them in its own branded products - I'm not sure Parnis and others are buying up the rest... I imagine a lot of the movements go into fakes/replicas unfortunately. It's something I'd love to see Seagull cut down on because propping up the fake market is something I'm sure us watch lovers don't support. I don't have any proof that this is what happens and would love to be proven wrong but on the face of it I can't see where else the demand for movements would come from.

There were some good teardown articles on this forum comparing Chinese movements to its ETA 2824 counterpart - at the conclusion you can see that there are technical, aesthetic and other differences - some pluses and negs on both sides but that yes there was still a difference between the movements - now whether those differences justify a price difference is another story. And add in the package that surrounds a watch (aftersales, customer support, servicing etc.) and you can see that there is a clear difference between the two currently. Perhaps Seagull is happy to be where its at currently but I would love for them to increase their competition and perhaps do a Grand-Seiko/Credor - a halo brand that combines the best of Chinese technical, aesthetic and aftersales into one watch brand.

In the meantime - I enjoy my Sea-gulls, my Omegas, my Vostoks etc. - different products at different price points and not really comparable.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

seagullfan said:


> For one - and very important aspect to a consumer - is servicing and aftersales service .


This goes back to my point that Sea-Gull doesn't seem care about marketing outside of China. I think they do more than enough business here. Plus, the rest of world is saturated with watches from so many other countries.

And yes, I can service my Sea-Gull in Shanghai any time I need.

I actually think it is smart that Sea-Gull stays in China. The same could be said of Beijing Watch Factory and Shanghai Watch Factory. Do any of these three companies have actual brick and mortar stores outside the mainland?

Sea-Gull is a Chinese watch brand that seems to be more than happy to just stay in China, and I kind of like it that way.

Lastly, the only person I know selling fake watches with Sea-Gull movements is that guy at Good Stuffs, the guy who sells fake Sea-Gull watches. Plus the few Taobao stores that have fake Sea-Gulls.


----------



## GrussGott

mythless said:


> Marketing and perception is everything in today's world.


To be fair "marketing and perception" has been everything since dawn of **** sapiens, but even before that too, because we see evidence of marketing tactics with most mammals (anybody with two dogs knows this!).

The challenge becomes globalization - if you have a prestigious product in region A, and buyers in region A start seeing the product is not appreciated by buyers from other regions, pricing power (and sales volume) freezes. That might be ok or not, depending. If Seagull is fine staying within region and doesn't see their business eroding, then it's fine.

Ultimately it comes down to what the customer values as better, and their trust in a company to deliver, e.g., hondas are reliable, BMWs are fun to drive, what's a Seat? said Americans.


----------



## Danfried

seagullfan said:


> One other shady thing that I have always wondered about (again I'm a big Chinese watch fan - but realistic) is - if Seagull make so many movements then what does it do with all of them??? It only uses a fraction of them in its own branded products - I'm not sure Parnis and others are buying up the rest... I imagine a lot of the movements go into fakes/replicas unfortunately. It's something I'd love to see Seagull cut down on because propping up the fake market is something I'm sure us watch lovers don't support. I don't have any proof that this is what happens and would love to be proven wrong but on the face of it I can't see where else the demand for movements would come from.


Well, they ARE a supplier to some of the world's big watch companies -- Fossil in the past, now Timex (e.g. their Marlin reissue). They also seem to supply every freaking microbrand that doesn't use the Seiko NH35 movement for their low-end movement needs.


----------



## seagullfan

But how many Fossil and Timex watches are sold really? Enough to use up the world's largest supply of mechanical movements? And they held that record a number of years ago so it's not just a recent thing.

I guess the comparison would be to Citizen - I see figures of 1.8 million movements a year ( https://gearpatrol.com/2019/02/12/best-watches-from-the-asian-market/ ) (though I don't know how the quartz/mechanical split) would be - they supply Citizen in-house watches of course but I see plenty of others using them whether in microbrands or apparently Bulova and even Fiyta/Beijing watches nowadays (sadly!) - I guess similarly to Seiko/Seagull some of their mechanical movements may end up in fakes but as Seagull produces so many more movements - 5 million or 25% of all global movements back in 2014 - https://gearpatrol.com/2014/01/14/opinion-rethinking-made-china/ - that it seems unlikely that they are selling them all through their Seagull brand, to microbrands, to fossil/timex etc. - and I doubt they are just stockpiling them up in warehouses.

As I said though - I'd be happy to be proven wrong but I can't help but suspect that a large portion of the movements seagull makes do not end up in "'proper" watches. Is the Chinese internal market for Seagull watches high enough that they make millions of seagull watch sales to the Chinese market? Not impossible but I haven't seen reports showing that (I know many Chinese nouveau rich would prefer the cachet of "Swiss" - just like around the world there aren't that many WIS in real life). Still - 3 million office worker Joes (or Jings in this case) would soak up the demand for those movements...maybe I'm overestimating the size of the fake watch market in the first place?


----------



## J.D.B.

Cool zombie thread. I doubt most Chinese movements are anywhere near the precision and tight quality control of the non-Asian Swiss movements.
My regular(excellent) watchmaker won't touch them. He says "they don't polish their parts". Completely dismissive of anything mechanical from China. I, myself, have seen much dirt and fingerprints in several of my Chinese collection. I see why my guy would turn his nose up at them. I found a rather pricey guy at a big shop north of me to work on one(not a complete re-work). He, too, had a less-than-pleasant look on his face looking at my Guangzhou in need. He DID, however, repair it. 
I'm open to any direction to a willing or even enthusiastic watchmaker for my Chinese stuff. I realize these are mostly throw-away pieces at current repair rates, BUT, some of mine are worth it.


----------



## Dynamite Kid19

I have a Marloe Chronoscope Chronograph with a Seagull ST19 movement. It's my only Seagull and I wouldn't purchase another. The Chronograph seconds had intermittently stops before 12 and stutters. I'm not interest in paying to ship it to and from England for repairs. It keeps time fine still and looks nicely finished for what I paid but I wouldn't go for another Seagull movement personally. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mythless

Dynamite Kid19 said:


> I have a Marloe Chronoscope Chronograph with a Seagull ST19 movement. It's my only Seagull and I wouldn't purchase another. The Chronograph seconds had intermittently stops before 12 and stutters. I'm not interest in paying to ship it to and from England for repairs. It keeps time fine still and looks nicely finished for what I paid but I wouldn't go for another Seagull movement personally.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Not shipping for warranty repair is a personal choice. As for the movement, there will always be a failure rate for all movements. I had an Orient that failed twice and shipped it twice (and it was a pain and shipping cost was high) but, it didn't steer me away from other Orient watches.

Granted, if I were to be looking for a new watch it the movement would have to be able to be repaired locally or replaceable these days. But, if it is under warranty repair, I'd hope there is a service center in my country. Sadly, for a lot of micros, that is non-existance. But, that is the price for anything that is not made in Canada.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

My two cents on this:
There are Tianjin Sea-Gull Factory made watches with Sea-Gull movements, and then there are Sea-Gull movements in non-Sea-Gull watches. 

Yes, Sea-Gull makes a ton of movements for the masses, but they also make movements for their own watches. 

From what I have experienced, Tianjin Sea-Gull Factory made watches are of very good quality with strong movements. I have not had any experience with any watches that have Sea-Gull movements that were not put in an authentic Tianjin Factory made Sea-Gull watch, but from the countless threads and posts I have read it seems like these "made for others" movements are hit or miss. 

Seiko is the only other watch maker I know that does this. Seiko makes their own watches with their own movements, but they also send out movements for other watch makers. 
I know ETA and Sellita make movements but are not watch makers.
So what about Seiko? 

Also, on the point about after-sells service. I was going to comment on Orient as well. (Mythless beat me to it.)
But he makes a great point. Orient is a Japanese watch and not only is it hard to get their watches serviced where he lives, but I couldn't even get a straight answer about what size gasket my Ray II uses here in China. I talked to Orient Watch in Beijing and they were clueless. I emailed Orient in Japan and they were no help too. I had to buy sets of gaskets ranging from 34-38mm and play "hit or miss" until I found a case back gasket that worked. I am sure if I lived in Japan it wouldn't be an issue getting parts for an Orient. Just like I wouldn't have a problem getting parts for my Sea-Gulls in China. 
Sea-Gull is not the only watch maker with issues of "after sales service" in other countries.


----------



## Bucks

I dropped my Seagull watch on a concrete floor and broke it. I sent it to Seagullwatchstore for repair with a bit of trepidation- would they really fix it professionally and how long would it take. It took three months (total turn around time) and came back working like a charm. I had a problem with a brand I don't wish to mention or tarnish but they are Australian and use ETA movements. I sent the watch for repair (their workshop is only 400km from where I live and it took five months (total turn around time) for me to get it back. Seriously, they are four hours drive from where I live- five months!


----------



## -Greg-

I have very little experience with watches, but currently, from 20 watches I currently own, 6 have Seagull movements. 

6487 clone, 6498 clone, 3 2824 clones and one 1780. The ST36 movements are accurate and run well, but 6497 clone has some visible dirt inside (looks like fingerprint mark). 

2824 clones run great, within specs, but they are relatively new watches. All of them are louder than ETA 2824 watches that I have (even the cheapest Candino Planet Solar is way quieter). The automatic winding is not that smooth with the Seagulls. When I take the watch off in the evening, they all stop way earlier than 2824 ETA watches stop, but if I wind them up manually, they keep identical power reserve as the ETAs do.

So from my experience, ETAs seem to work better than the Seagulls. I do realize that I have limited exposure to Chinese watches and there might be something wrong with my watches, but when 3 out of 3 have similar issues, that seems like general QC issue, not bad luck.

I took 1780 to the local watchmaker, who services all my watches to address the automatic winding issue. When wearing the watch, it was not losing reserve but wasn't gaining anything either. There was an issue with lubrication (lack of lubrication to be exact). He disassembled the movement, cleaned up, and lubed it. Now it works better, but still not as good as other Swiss watches. 

Anyway, for the price I have paid, they are really good. There might be some "Elabore" versions of the same movements that are better than usual ones, but I am still not convinced by their QC to pay anything more than $250 for them.


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

-Greg- said:


> I do realize that I have limited exposure to Chinese watches and there might be something wrong with my watches, but when 3 out of 3 have similar issues, that seems like general QC issue, not bad luck.


These issues you seem to have are likely to do with the watch manufacturer and not the movement manufacturer. Fingerprints? Dust? etc.
These sound like QC faults of the watch maker and not the movement maker. 
Remember, Sea-Gull is the largest producer of mechanical movements in the world. It hardly seems justifiable to judge Tianjin SeaGull on what the watch maker does or doesn't do with their movements.

Lastly, have you ever had a authentic Tianjin Sea-Gull watch? I have had many and had zero issues with any of them.


----------



## johnmichael

Monkey_like_watch said:


> These issues you seem to have are likely to do with the watch manufacturer and not the movement manufacturer. Fingerprints? Dust? etc.
> These sound like QC faults of the watch maker and not the movement maker.
> Remember, Sea-Gull is the largest producer of mechanical movements in the world. It hardly seems justifiable to judge Tianjin SeaGull on what the watch maker does or doesn't do with their movements.
> 
> Lastly, have you ever had a authentic Tianjin Sea-Gull watch? I have had many and had zero issues with any of them.


Hey MLW, let me change gears on you for a moment. I have never had an authentic Tianjin Sea-Gull watch but I have had watches w/the ST-2130, the ST-1812, and the ST36 (6497) movements and they have served me well. Where should I look (sources) for authentic Sea-Gull watches since you have more or less convinced me that I should have an authentic piece. If you can provide sites as well as anything to further pique my interest, I would be keen to hear. And, please don't suggest the one I would really like----the Atlantis----too $$$. Really, the last thing I need is a fake Sea-Gull----plenty of those on ebay!


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

johnmichael said:


> Hey MLW, let me change gears on you for a moment. I have never had an authentic Tianjin Sea-Gull watch but I have had watches w/the ST-2130, the ST-1812, and the ST36 (6497) movements and they have served me well. Where should I look (sources) for authentic Sea-Gull watches since you have more or less convinced me that I should have an authentic piece. If you can provide sites as well as anything to further pique my interest, I would be keen to hear. And, please don't suggest the one I would really like----the Atlantis----too $$$. Really, the last thing I need is a fake Sea-Gull----plenty of those on ebay!


JM,

I am going to assume you are not in mainland China, so my suggestion is to go with one of these two places: EOL Outlet and Seagullwatchcompany. Both of these are affiliated with a guy named Kevin, who is also a WUS member. 
He is selling authentic Sea-Gull watches, and he even knew about the new bronze diver before they were released. 
Here are the websites:

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/gr...tml?spm=a2g1y.12024536.pcShopHead_6110206.1_0

https://www.seagullwatchcompany.com/collections/watches

You can PM me if you have any more questions, concerns, etc.

Good luck, 
M_L_W


----------



## Danfried

I've also used EOL Outlet and am a satisfied customer, but if you prefer an American seller of Sea-Gull watches, you could try longislandwatch.com. Note that, when you shop by Brand, they have separate entries for "Sea-Gull" and "Seagull 1963". If you want something made by the original Tianjin Sea-Gull company, choose the former.


----------



## broadsword416

Hi, I have a Timex T2m516 automatic, power reserve 40 hr, date, open hart with screw down crown on black leather strap. It has been incredibly accurate. The see through back shows a clean movement and blue screws. I recommend it. 42 mm


----------



## eddieo396

Monkey_like_watch said:


> HAHA! Your ignorance of Chinese mechanical watches is laughable. Cheap doesn't equate inferior. That is just ignorant.
> Do you even know about the ZuanShi SM1A-K? It is a near chronometer movement made in China that can be bought for less than 20usd. You really don't know what you are talking about, but I forgive your ignorance. I didn't know about Chinese watches until I moved to China.
> 
> First, I don't expect that you or anyone outside of China would spend that kind of money on a Sea-Gull. Heck, I won't even buy one for that money.
> These watches are made for the Chinese market not the international market.
> 
> Second, you can't find good Sea-Gull watches outside of China because they don't sell many outside China. That is just a fact of the marketing. Why go outside China when they have 1.4 billion possible customers?
> 
> Lastly, you aren't going to change my mind about how good Sea-Gull watches are because I know the truth, as do other members on this forum.


I have read your posts but sea gull watches could easily be sold on aliexpress...outside of china ...


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

eddieo396 said:


> I have read your posts but sea gull watches could easily be sold on aliexpress...outside of china ...


Hey Eddie,

Please don't take that post out of context; that post was in reference to previous posts that were about +5000usd Sea-Gull watches, which I consider to be high-end. (see post #30, where it all started.)

Yes, you can buy some Sea-Gulls outside China but you won't see one of the very high-end Sea-Gulls for sale outside of China.

The most expensive " verifiable authentic" Sea-Gull I can find for sale on the international market is a tourbillion for just under 3K usd. 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...18&spm=2114.12010612.8148356.1.38c0195fjG0LfT

The fact is that you can't even find the very high-ends for sale in the mainland on JD.com or Taobao either. These are the major online stores; well, those and Suning.com. 
Suning has the most expensive watch for a mainland online store at 16000rmb. The Inter Milan 110th anniversary fan watch:

https://product.suning.com/0000000000/10573570929.html

The only place I see Sea-Gulls over 3Kusd is on their own Sea-Gull mall website. You can only buy a watch on that website if you live in China. 
Found here:
https://www.sea-gullmall.com/index.html


----------



## matson.blaine

coachstu said:


> If you're going to go thread to thread being this advocate for Seagull, even implying their products are worth spending $5,000 on, you might expect someone to challenge your opinion at some point. That's a disservice to everyone here. If you're going to tout a watch for that kind of money, you should expect someone to challenge that, and to point out to others that spending big money on a watch brand that has very few examples of their vintage work is a BAD idea. I'm looking real hard for 40 year old Seagull watches for sale, and I'm not finding many. Which is quite strange for *the world's largest manufacturer of mechanical watch movements*. And the few I have ran across have basically no value. Why is that? I'll answer that. Because the watches were of very poor quality. But now we're supposed to believe they've turned the corner and command prices on the same level as Omega. You know, that could actually be true. But you've got no basis at all to make that claim and the fact that no one else is spending that kind of money on Seagull watches just proves my point.
> 
> That's your history lesson. A history of inferior watches. That is undeniable.
> 
> And here is your lesson about manners. I find that your manner is excruciating. There is never any excuse for bad manners. Ever.


----------



## eddieo396

😂


----------



## Monkey_like_watch

Welcome to f72, matson.blaine.
Thanks for resurrecting this 12 year old thread once again.
It is the thread that won't die. 😂

I hope to see you again in three years, old thread.

MLW


----------



## Chascomm

Word of the day:

Threasurrection.


----------



## johnmichael

Just as I had warned-----there goes the neighborhood! Time to close this one out C___comm!


----------

