# So my GS broke....



## watchiseek215

So back in October of 2016 I traveled to Japan for the first time and while I was there bought a GS I'd been looking for, a SBGE009. Made a few posts about in these here forums. It's a beautiful watch and I don't regret buying it one bit. However, it has broken :-(. I hadn't wore the watch much over the winter and just kept it in my watch box winder, just sitting there spinning away. One evening, before going to bed, I was setting my other Seiko in to wind for the night when I noticed it was running 15 minutes fast. I thought, well that's odd for a spring drive to be running fast, especially 15 minutes. So, I took it off the winder and popped out the crown. Wound the minute hand back to the correct time and push the crown back in and......nothing. 

The second hand didn't resume movement. 

Confused I pulled the crown out again, pushed it in, still nothing. The dread that starts to sink in when you think the worst has happened. "Was it not fully wound?", I thought. No, the power reserve shows it's fully wound. With doubt in my mind I wound the crown a half-dozen times, popped it and pushed it but still the heart would not beat again. I had no clue what went wrong. I even tried moving the minute hand back to where it was before I changed it but still it wouldn't start again. Guess time travel doesn't work that way. 

I scoured forums but I didn't come across any GS Spring Drive owners having this issue before. After scouring the internet for answers , it was late and I had work in the morning. I set my GS back into my watch box and tried to get some sleep. I checked the next morning to see if it had started beating again, it did not. The day after...nothing. The week after....nothing. All the while the same time from when it stopped still shown, the power reserve still full. 

I was hesitant to send my it in for service as I've read some things about Seiko Service USA that didn't exactly inspire confidence. I still have 1.5 year warranty remaining from when it was purchased. It was delivered to the Mahwah, NJ location today. I hope it is nothing serious and I hope to have it back in my collection soon.


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## davemachin

My GS Snowflake did the exact same thing. It was still under warranty, and i just got it back after about six weeks. They polished and cleaned it up, and listed the fault as the watch “drying out” on the receipt. I take that to mean they cleaned and relubricated it. It made me wonder how long it had been sitting in inventory before i bought it.

Since getting it back its worked perfectly. 


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## zuiko

I think that one has to be careful with SD and winders. I think although can't recall why, that SD movements are not recommended for winder use. It could be in the manual or it might be something I read at one point around in-depth explanations of the SD mechanism. 

I think it's due to magnetic fields from winders electric motors being improperly shielded.

If one considers that the SD is operating on mere nanoamperes and using electromagnetic braking then perhaps the advice to avoid winders and SD is founded in a real danger. 


Notwithstanding all that I'm sorry to hear about your woe and your warranty should cover you. I believe all SD are sent to Japan for service and repair.


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## Indyboot

Yikes, and here I was thinking the spring drives were much less prone to breakage than your conventional automatic. To the snowflake owner above, was this on a winder as well?


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## cyclenut

Thanks for sharing your story. Sucks to hear about your trouble. Hopefully they'll get it fixed. I still want a SD regardless.


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## matthew P

zuiko said:


> I believe all SD are sent to Japan for service and repair.


I believe this is incorrect.... US service center deals with spring drive if my memory not faulty.

From the GS service sticky above

"After seeing many questions pertaining to servicing for Grand Seiko on Watchuseek, Seiko USA has decided to answer some of the most frequently asked questions regarding Grand Seiko service. Please keep in mind these are strictly from Seiko USA, and certain items, such as price, may differ in other countries.


*Q: Can Grand Seiko be serviced in the USA?*

*A:* Yes, All calibers with the exception of the 9R86 and 9R96 Chronograph GMT can be serviced in the US. The 9R86 and 9R96 does require to be sent to Japan for service. Any 9R Chronograph series caliber will have to go to Japan for service.

*Q: What are the approximate costs of servicing?

A: These are the base prices for an overhaul (includes disassembly, movement components, cleaning, re-lubrication, and adjustment) of Grand Seiko by caliber. These prices do not include any case or band parts, shipping, insurance, or any other costs that may occur. These prices are subject to change at any time. Please also realize that every situation of repair or service can be different. The watch would need to be inspected before a final quote can be provided. Watches that need to be repaired in Japan will incur an additional insurance and customs charge cost. None of these prices include domestic shipping or insurance. The prices for overhauls do include a standard cleaning and polishing for case and bracelet (not Zaratsu). 

9F Quartz: $312.50

9F Quartz Battery Change: $52 (including battery, labor, gaskets and water test)

9S Mechanical: $375.00

9R Spring Drive: $437.50

9R86 and 9R96 Spring Drive Chronograph: Priced based on estimate from Japan (in most instances $1,000 or higher).*

"


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## Domo

What a very interesting story...I'd also like to know if davemachin's SD was on a winder too. Might be something to be wary of :think:

I hope you have a speedy service experience though :-!


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## dayandnight

Prayers go out to your Grand seiko I hope everything goes right with the service

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## Gizanthepuss

Oh no ! Mate, sorry to hear about your SD woes. Hopefully it'll be a quick and (relatively) easy fix and back on your wrist in 2 shakes of a lambs tail.

This would be my biggest concern with an SD. I love the technology, but I'd be forever paranoid. Just ordered a new GS and went with the Hi-Beat instead of the SD. As a friend of mine that's into classic muscle cars says "all these fancy schmancy engine management systems are OK and all, but you can beat a good old fashioned carburetor"


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## davemachin

Indyboot said:


> Yikes, and here I was thinking the spring drives were much less prone to breakage than your conventional automatic. To the snowflake owner above, was this on a winder as well?


Mine was not on a winder.

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## whineboy

Indyboot said:


> Yikes, and here I was thinking the spring drives were much less prone to breakage than your conventional automatic. To the snowflake owner above, was this on a winder as well?


I've been reading the GS forum for years and can only recall one or two posts, including this one, about Spring Drive problems. Problems with the automatics are more common (generally relating to accuracy).

I think the microelectronics in the SD's tri-synchro regulator probably are more robust than the delicate mechanical parts in the escapements of the automatics. And no moving parts in electronics besides the oscillating quartz crystal (which just vibrates in place), so there is nothing there to wear or break.

Speaking as a GS high beat and handwind owner, I chose them for their romance and pure mechanical craftsmanship. If I were more focused on accuracy, the SD might have done it for me. Of course taking that to the extreme, the GS quartz line makes the most sense - beautiful and supremely accurate.

Getting back to the OP, hopefully the problem will involve something easy to replace like the tri-synchro regulator, and he'll be back to normal. Good luck, OP.


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## appleb

I'm an SBGA011 snowflake owner in Canada. I had to send in my snowflake due to it running at a rate near +90s per day. Strangely it only exhibited that rate while being worn. While resting it ran around +0.2s per day.

Anyway, I brought it back to my local dealer here in Canada, and the dealer said it would be sent to Seiko Canada who in turn would send it to Seiko Japan for repair.


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## ten13th

I’ve SBGA011 on winder for two months straight without any issues. What I’ve observed is SD requires less winding than any other mechanical watch I’ve. Daily bi-directional of 350 rotation is enough to keep PR at 50-75%. 


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## whineboy

ten13th said:


> I've SBGA011 on winder for two months straight without any issues. What I've observed is SD requires less winding than any other mechanical watch I've. Daily bi-directional of 350 rotation is enough to keep PR at 50-75%.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Don't Spring Drives use Seiko's Magic Lever winding system? That would explain why they wind so efficiently.

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## Brny11

Ughh.. good luck!

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## djsick

For me the winder is the cause... SD does not need to be wind much to work. If I take mine (reserve empty), wear it (without even winding it)... a few hours later (2-3 only!) the reserve is full and stay max full as long as I wear it. Why using a winder if only to bring your watch watches 5 times faster for service.


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## watchiseek215

davemachin said:


> My GS Snowflake did the exact same thing. It was still under warranty, and i just got it back after about six weeks. They polished and cleaned it up, and listed the fault as the watch "drying out" on the receipt. I take that to mean they cleaned and relubricated it. It made me wonder how long it had been sitting in inventory before i bought it.
> 
> Since getting it back its worked perfectly.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I thought that might have been a possible issue. My bedroom can be chilly in the winter months but not freezing cold and it's nearby a radiator so I don't think it could've gotten too cold. Haven't heard anything from the service center yet about my watch.


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## watchiseek215

zuiko said:


> I think that one has to be careful with SD and winders. I think although can't recall why, that SD movements are not recommended for winder use. It could be in the manual or it might be something I read at one point around in-depth explanations of the SD mechanism.
> 
> I think it's due to magnetic fields from winders electric motors being improperly shielded.
> 
> If one considers that the SD is operating on mere nanoamperes and using electromagnetic braking then perhaps the advice to avoid winders and SD is founded in a real danger.
> 
> Notwithstanding all that I'm sorry to hear about your woe and your warranty should cover you. I believe all SD are sent to Japan for service and repair.


I actually did see that in the manual after I sent it out. It didn't cross my mind but maybe. I guess (pardon the pun) only time will tell when Seiko gets back to me about it.


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## watchiseek215

whineboy said:


> I've been reading the GS forum for years and can only recall one or two posts, including this one, about Spring Drive problems. Problems with the automatics are more common (generally relating to accuracy).
> 
> I think the microelectronics in the SD's tri-synchro regulator probably are more robust than the delicate mechanical parts in the escapements of the automatics. And no moving parts in electronics besides the oscillating quartz crystal (which just vibrates in place), so there is nothing there to wear or break.
> 
> Speaking as a GS high beat and handwind owner, I chose them for their romance and pure mechanical craftsmanship. If I were more focused on accuracy, the SD might have done it for me. Of course taking that to the extreme, the GS quartz line makes the most sense - beautiful and supremely accurate.
> 
> Getting back to the OP, hopefully the problem will involve something easy to replace like the tri-synchro regulator, and he'll be back to normal. Good luck, OP.


Yea, I couldn't find anything similar to what I was experiencing in the forums. Guess I had to be the unlucky one (or maybe lucky one?)


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## grayfox8647

Thanks for sharing your story, I know that feeling. Good luck fixing your GS comrade


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## watchiseek215

djsick said:


> For me the winder is the cause... SD does not need to be wind much to work. If I take mine (reserve empty), wear it (without even winding it)... a few hours later (2-3 only!) the reserve is full and stay max full as long as I wear it. Why using a winder if only to bring your watch watches 5 times faster for service.


Well from my understanding, many modern automatics have a kind of clutch that allows the rotor or main spring to slip to avoid being over wound. So assuming that system doesn't fail, it shouldn't be possible to over wind an automatic watch. So keeping it on a winder shouldn't be too much of an issue. I get where you're coming from though. When I do get it back I might just keep it off the winder and wind it by hand every how and again. I mean, winding a watch is one of the small pleasures of owning an auto or manual wind watch.


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## watchiseek215

A small update. 

Got an email this past Saturday from Seiko. Nothing much, just confirmation that they have my watch and that it is warranty, so....yay?


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## Seibei

My advice is this: Unless you have some incredibly complicated mechanical watch that has things like moonphase, perpetual calendar, etc. that you to not want to have to reset if it stops, then keep your watches, and I mean all watches away from winders. Having your watch running all the time with the mainspring at maximum tension is a recipe for premature failure. Give your watch a well deserved rest when you are not using it. It will thank you for it.

Do I have a watch winder? Yes, my wrist.


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## whineboy

Seibei is right - your wrist is a good winder. 
I did a test, put my GS GMT highbeat on when cold-stopped, wore it 30 minutes, took it off, put it down. It ran for 11 hours. 
My point being, the autowind in a mechanical GS is pretty efficient, the Spring Drive probably even more so. A few hours of wear should go a long way toward fully-winding the mainspring.
Enjoy!


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## Mark355

Seibei said:


> Unless you have some incredibly complicated mechanical watch that has things like moonphase, perpetual calendar, etc. that you to not want to have to reset if it stops, then keep your watches, and I mean all watches away from winders. Having your watch running all the time with the mainspring at maximum tension is a recipe for premature failure. Give your watch a well deserved rest when you are not using it. It will thank you for it.
> 
> Do I have a watch winder? Yes, my wrist.


One of the best posts I've read here in weeks. Thank you.


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## johnMcKlane

Mark355 said:


> One of the best posts I've read here in weeks. Thank you.


I concur


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## Blue Note

When I take my GS Spring Drive out of the box I manual wind it, maybe 10 times, it really doesn’t take much, and then wear it. After a work day it’s usually at 100% power. When I take it off it goes back in the box, and the box goes into a safe. Been doing this for 1.5 years, so far so good.


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## davemachin

UNBELIEVABLE- it’s stopped again! Only wore it for maybe 10 days after getting it back after six weeks at the service center. Then it sat in its box until today, and it won’t run again. Winds and sets and the power reserve goes up. But when I pressed the crown back in it didnt start up again. Grrrrrr. 


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## davemachin

Video






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## davemachin

For what its worth, it ran when i wound it, stopped when i pulled out the crown (like it should) - set the time and date fine, but wont “un hack” when i push the crown back in. So i guess the keyless works or hacking mechanism. 


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## ten13th

davemachin said:


> UNBELIEVABLE- it's stopped again! Only wore it for maybe 10 days after getting it back after six weeks at the service center. Then it sat in its box until today, and it won't run again. Winds and sets and the power reserve goes up. But when I pressed the crown back in it didnt start up again. Grrrrrr.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sorry to hear about your issues. It's frustrating when the watch still have issue after service.

Which Seiko service center did the work?

Instagram: ten13th


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## davemachin

I think the one in New Jersey, but i sent it to the AD, who sent it on to get repaired. 


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## johnMcKlane

davemachin said:


> I think the one in New Jersey, but i sent it to the AD, who sent it on to get repaired.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


still no answer ...


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## MID

matthew P said:


> I believe this is incorrect.... US service center deals with spring drive if my memory not faulty.
> 
> From the GS service sticky above
> 
> "After seeing many questions pertaining to servicing for Grand Seiko on Watchuseek, Seiko USA has decided to answer some of the most frequently asked questions regarding Grand Seiko service. Please keep in mind these are strictly from Seiko USA, and certain items, such as price, may differ in other countries.
> 
> 
> *Q: Can Grand Seiko be serviced in the USA?*
> 
> *A:* Yes, All calibers with the exception of the 9R86 and 9R96 Chronograph GMT can be serviced in the US. The 9R86 and 9R96 does require to be sent to Japan for service. Any 9R Chronograph series caliber will have to go to Japan for service.
> 
> *Q: What are the approximate costs of servicing?
> 
> A: These are the base prices for an overhaul (includes disassembly, movement components, cleaning, re-lubrication, and adjustment) of Grand Seiko by caliber. These prices do not include any case or band parts, shipping, insurance, or any other costs that may occur. These prices are subject to change at any time. Please also realize that every situation of repair or service can be different. The watch would need to be inspected before a final quote can be provided. Watches that need to be repaired in Japan will incur an additional insurance and customs charge cost. None of these prices include domestic shipping or insurance. The prices for overhauls do include a standard cleaning and polishing for case and bracelet (not Zaratsu).
> 
> 9F Quartz: $312.50
> 
> 9F Quartz Battery Change: $52 (including battery, labor, gaskets and water test)
> 
> 9S Mechanical: $375.00
> 
> 9R Spring Drive: $437.50
> 
> 9R86 and 9R96 Spring Drive Chronograph: Priced based on estimate from Japan (in most instances $1,000 or higher).*
> 
> "


A good reason to buy from a Seiko Boutique -- extended warranty and first service on the house.


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## lmcs

Those service prices aren't too bad compared to my recent Panerai service. I serviced a common ETA based movement to the tune of $600 at a Panerai dealer.


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## johnMcKlane

davemachin said:


> UNBELIEVABLE- it's stopped again! Only wore it for maybe 10 days after getting it back after six weeks at the service center. Then it sat in its box until today, and it won't run again. Winds and sets and the power reserve goes up. But when I pressed the crown back in it didnt start up again. Grrrrrr.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This is sad ...


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## Mark355

lmcs said:


> Those service prices aren't too bad compared to my recent Panerai service.


For an in-house movement, those prices are a bargain. Lots of luck getting your Rolex three-hander out of an RSC today for less than $800.


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## watchiseek215

Seibei said:


> My advice is this: Unless you have some incredibly complicated mechanical watch that has things like moonphase, perpetual calendar, etc. that you to not want to have to reset if it stops, then keep your watches, and I mean all watches away from winders. Having your watch running all the time with the mainspring at maximum tension is a recipe for premature failure. Give your watch a well deserved rest when you are not using it. It will thank you for it.
> 
> Do I have a watch winder? Yes, my wrist.


I agree, to a degree, with your statement but letting a watch sit unwound can also cause issues. Mainly the oils drying out.


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## watchiseek215

davemachin said:


> UNBELIEVABLE- it's stopped again! Only wore it for maybe 10 days after getting it back after six weeks at the service center. Then it sat in its box until today, and it won't run again. Winds and sets and the power reserve goes up. But when I pressed the crown back in it didnt start up again. Grrrrrr.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Oh my god, that's terrible news. I think SCA retains 1 year warranty on their repair work but it sucks that this happened again. Now I'm worried about what if mines stops again.


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## watchiseek215

davemachin said:


> Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I feeling the same heartbreak all over again when mines stopped.


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## bluedialer

Mark355 said:


> For an in-house movement, those prices are a bargain. Lots of luck getting your Rolex three-hander out of an RSC today for less than $800.


Not a bargain at all if you get shoddy service.


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## johnMcKlane

watchiseek215 said:


> I feeling the same heartbreak all over again when mines stopped.


What's next ?? Is it allright ?


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## johnMcKlane

7


watchiseek215 said:


> I feeling the same heartbreak all over again when mines stopped.


What's next ?? Is it allright ?


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## watchiseek215

johnMcKlane said:


> What's next ?? Is it allright ?


Last thing I got from Seiko service center was a 1 month estimated repair time. This was on 3/9/18. So, we'll see.


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## watchiseek215

johnMcKlane said:


> What's next ?? Is it allright ?


Last thing I got from Seiko service center was a 1 month estimated repair time. This was on 3/9/18. So, we'll see.


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## bluedialer

ten13th said:


> Sorry to hear about your issues. It's frustrating when the watch still have issue after service.
> 
> Which Seiko service center did the work?


Coming back with the exact same problem indicates to me that the watch unexplainably started to move again at the service center... They then shrugged, did some minor lubrication, possibly without proper disassembly, and sent it back. They didn't bother to try to properly diagnose what the problem might have been, and perhaps don't have the knowledge or experience (or caring) to know what specific problematic parts to possibly inspect for this issue, in the event that the issue is not actively occurring for them.

At least that is the impression left on me from such unacceptable service results.


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## johnMcKlane

watchiseek215 said:


> Last thing I got from Seiko service center was a 1 month estimated repair time. This was on 3/9/18. So, we'll see.


lol at the double post !hahahaha

did you lost your trust in them ?


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## krowe

bluedialer said:


> Coming back with the exact same problem indicates to me that the watch unexplainably started to move again at the service center... They then shrugged, did some minor lubrication, possibly without proper disassembly, and sent it back. They didn't bother to try to properly diagnose what the problem might have been, and perhaps don't have the knowledge or experience (or caring) to know what specific problematic parts to possibly inspect for this issue, in the event that the issue is not actively occurring for them.
> 
> At least that is the impression left on me from such unacceptable service results.


This is the ONE thing that actively prevents me from getting a new Snowflake! Really hard to justify spending that kind of money on a piece which isn't supported properly by the manufacturer...


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## CeeCab705

I'm interested to see how this turns out. I am considering getting a GS and this will be a big deciding factor.


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## murokello

CeeCab705 said:


> I'm interested to see how this turns out. I am considering getting a GS and this will be a big deciding factor.


 So this one bad lemon out of tens of thousands of spring drives is going to be the deciding factor for you. Good luck with your life.


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## CeeCab705

murokello said:


> CeeCab705 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested to see how this turns out. I am considering getting a GS and this will be a big deciding factor.
> 
> 
> 
> So this one bad lemon out of tens of thousands of spring drives is going to be the deciding factor for you. Good luck with your life.
Click to expand...

Good luck with yours if this is how you respond to a conversation on a forum.


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## krowe

murokello said:


> So this one bad lemon out of tens of thousands of spring drives is going to be the deciding factor for you. Good luck with your life.


Lemons do happen, its how its dealt with that matters. Unless Grand Seiko can prove its service standard is better than that of regular Seiko's, its an absolute deal breaker to have any kind of servicing done by Coserv. Also, all Spring Drive watches have to be serviced eventually, and I for one will not hand it to Coserv, who's either indifferent or incompetent, or I suspect, both.


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## murokello

CeeCab705 said:


> Good luck with yours if this is how you respond to a conversation on a forum.


 Sorry I did not meant to be rude. I just meant you should not put a "big" emphasis on one bad example.


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## BarracksSi

krowe said:


> Lemons do happen, its how its dealt with that matters.


This x 1000. ^^^^^


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## CeeCab705

krowe said:


> murokello said:
> 
> 
> 
> So this one bad lemon out of tens of thousands of spring drives is going to be the deciding factor for you. Good luck with your life.
> 
> 
> 
> Lemons do happen, its how its dealt with that matters. Unless Grand Seiko can prove its service standard is better than that of regular Seiko's, its an absolute deal breaker to have any kind of servicing done by Coserv. Also, all Spring Drive watches have to be serviced eventually, and I for one will not hand it to Coserv, who's either indifferent or incompetent, or I suspect, both.
Click to expand...

How they deal with is a big concern. So far, it doesn't seem like it has been handled well, and that's big for something that costs $4500+. I hope this all goes well for the OP.


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## SeanE

As much as I love spring drive as a concept, stories like this make me nervous about it living over here. If I was back in japan again, maybe another story...


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## Indyboot

So are we saying that similar experiences can’t be found with Omega, Rolex, and Breitling?


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## SeanE

Sure, but from living in Japan I recall things are much easier to deal with service than back here in the states. Can pretty much drop in any AD and they will take the watch and have it back good as new at a fraction of the cost of over here. ymmv and all that


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## krowe

Indyboot said:


> So are we saying that similar experiences can't be found with Omega, Rolex, and Breitling?


Not exactly, bad service can be had from any brand. But Seiko's standard in the US is terrible to the point that they're basically untrustworthy. 
Personally, I was hoping that Grand Seiko would have better service that matches their price point, but evidently thats not the case. 
If a watch comes in with issues stated by the owner, then look at it seriously!


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## BarracksSi

Indyboot said:


> So are we saying that similar experiences can't be found with Omega, Rolex, and Breitling?


I've heard this same type of argument get used in plenty of other debates, and it's just as stupid here as it is anywhere else.

Two wrongs (or, I guess, four wrongs) don't make a right, do they? Bringing up other brands implies that we think it's okay for anyone to get bad service from them, so why would we get upset at Seiko?

No, that's not an answer. It doesn't fix the problem, which is unsatisfactory service.


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## murokello

krowe said:


> Not exactly, bad service can be had from any brand. But Seiko's standard in the US is terrible to the point that they're basically untrustworthy. Personally, I was hoping that Grand Seiko would have better service that matches their price point, but evidently thats not the case. If a watch comes in with issues stated by the owner, then look at it seriously!


 How many bad services there are out of every service? Hope you have some data to backup your claim.


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## WatchHound007

Seibei said:


> My advice is this: Unless you have some incredibly complicated mechanical watch that has things like moonphase, perpetual calendar, etc. that you to not want to have to reset if it stops, then keep your watches, and I mean all watches away from winders. Having your watch running all the time with the mainspring at maximum tension is a recipe for premature failure. Give your watch a well deserved rest when you are not using it. It will thank you for it.
> 
> Do I have a watch winder? Yes, my wrist.


Could not agree more. When I first got into the hobby 25 years ago EVERYONE said you had to keep your automatic watch on a winder for longevity. I had almost as much money invested in Orbita winders as I did watches. I've since gone 180 degrees in my thinking. Not one of my watches is kept on a winder now. I let them run down then manually wind them when I need to use them. Haven't had a single issue in 20+ years doing it this way.


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## krowe

murokello said:


> How many bad services there are out of every service? Hope you have some data to backup your claim.


In my dealings with Coserv, they're 0 for 3. Which is a failure rate of 100%, and is the basis for my decision to not go with them. 
You can try to convince me otherwise, but of course you'll need hard data from Seiko to do so. 
I for one highly doubt that they'll publish such data, or rather, give you real numbers.

EDIT: Grammar


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## Jezza

My consultations on the OP’s watch. It’s frustrating to wait for a watch repair, and doubly so to await the same repair yet again. I’ve heard a number of complaints about Seiko’s US Service Centre for Grand Seiko. But, dissatisfied customers are usually the loudest. Are there any satisfied recipients of service from the US Service Centre? I’m not asking because I want to bash GS; rather, I have two GS mechanicals and I’m concerned about my prospects when the time for service comes.


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## watchiseek215

Jezza said:


> My consultations on the OP's watch. It's frustrating to wait for a watch repair, and doubly so to await the same repair yet again. I've heard a number of complaints about Seiko's US Service Centre for Grand Seiko. But, dissatisfied customers are usually the loudest. Are there any satisfied recipients of service from the US Service Centre? I'm not asking because I want to bash GS; rather, I have two GS mechanicals and I'm concerned about my prospects when the time for service comes.


Just to clear things up a bit. It's myself and another poster in this thread, davemachin, who ran into issues with our SD GS's. This is the first time I've had an issue since owning mines for about 1.5 years where it just suddenly stopped one night. davemachin had the same thing happen and he has sent it to Seiko USA to get it fixed. It was supposedly fixed but then out of the blue it stopped again.


----------



## Pureformzen

yep


----------



## Pureformzen

i dont know what im doing lol


----------



## krowe

Any updates?



Pureformzen said:


> i dont know what im doing lol


Neither does Coserv apparently.


----------



## davemachin

krowe said:


> Any updates?
> 
> Neither does Coserv apparently.


No updates from me, i dont expect any news until its on its way back to me. I sent it for repair via the AD , Im not sure if there would have been more updates if id sent it to Seiko directly.

My guess is still a fee weeks at least.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## watchiseek215

Just a small update. I got an email on 4/3 that my GS has been assigned to a technician (their words not mine) for repair. So almost after a month after it was delivered, its finally in the operating room.


----------



## BarracksSi

Maybe they have job openings. Time to get some training!


----------



## GCabot

Please do keep us updated. I was seriously considering getting a GS in the near future, but if the servicing issues are this bad, that would be a deal-breaker.

Does anyone know if it is possible to have a GS serviced in Japan regardless from the U.S., if you are willing to pay whatever extra it costs to ship it back and forth?


----------



## watchiseek215

GCabot said:


> Please do keep us updated. I was seriously considering getting a GS in the near future, but if the servicing issues are this bad, that would be a deal-breaker.
> 
> Does anyone know if it is possible to have a GS serviced in Japan regardless from the U.S., if you are willing to pay whatever extra it costs to ship it back and forth?


From what I know, certain movements have to be serviced in Japan. I'm hoping that all this bad service rep is not all it's being made out to be. I don't mind if it takes time to repair. So long as it is done properly.


----------



## watchiseek215

So I got another email yesterday saying that my GS had been assigned to a technician for repair...again? I had received one on 4/3. So...not sure it means a different technician is working on it now. Unfortunately, there isn't much info on what exactly is happening with the repair other than what the website tells me, which is only that it is assigned to a technician.


----------



## DustinS

watchiseek215 said:


> So I got another email yesterday saying that my GS had been assigned to a technician for repair...again? I had received one on 4/3. So...not sure it means a different technician is working on it now. Unfortunately, there isn't much info on what exactly is happening with the repair other than what the website tells me, which is only that it is assigned to a technician.


So I know my GS which is a few years old (before spring drives were serviced in the US), but they were a card in there to get "GS Servicing" people. Have you called them? I know from a few inquires with GS, they sadly push for phone service vs email (I hate that btw). That said at least the way they market they seem to be at least vocal about being phone friendly to GS owners.


----------



## kotake12

It is a sad news.
I think that they are well fixed.
Please take care!


----------



## bluedialer

I hope everybody with bad experiences are calling/writing in pointed complaints, to SEIKO not coserv, and not just talking about it among other enthusiasts.... Which can help if they're made aware of threads like this, but otherwise doesn't do too much to bring about necessary improvement.


----------



## watchiseek215

GOOD NEWS! I received my GS back. The day after I made my last post I got another email that my GS was being shipped back via UPS. Took only a day to ship. Box was well packaged, had white packing peanuts surrounding a white card board box. Took some pictures of what I got back.























I like the case they used to send the watch in. Reminds me of a camera lens case. Has a zipper to keep it closed. Also got the service report in a 'Grand Seiko' branded envelope, fancy. Seems they gave my GS the same diagnosis as dave's GS Snowflake, that it "dried out" and required an overhaul. After receiving the watch back I carefully examined the case, no scratches or other blemishes other than the ones I put there myself. Case back is also clean and no blemishes. No visible dust or dirt under the crystal or the dial. Adjusted the time, made sure the functions are working as it should.

Overall, I'm pleased with the service I received and am happy to have my GS back. Now, hopefully it doesn't break again.

That's not to say I don't have some critic of SCA's overall service process. I feel the submission process could be made more transparent. It's a tough pill to swallow when your only option is to blindly send your watch to SCA and all you have is a form to send with it. It would be nice if you could open a case or work order or something before needing to do that.

Feedback about receipt of my watch was also lacking. It was almost a week after my watch was delivered before I got any acknowledgement that it was received. I don't know how busy people are at SCA, but a simple email just confirming receipt of the watch the day it was received would have been appreciated.

Everything else after that point, I was fine with. My expectations for the repair time was that it was going to take awhile, it took nearly 6 weeks after I sent it in. At the very least SCA did provide me with updates via email. So, is it the best customer experience that Seiko can offer? Definitely not, but it wasn't as bad as I was lead to believe.


----------



## davemachin

Definitely good news! I do wonder what “dried out” really means - you wouldn’t think either of our watches were old enough to have dried out in any way. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## curvexguy

davemachin said:


> Definitely good news! I do wonder what "dried out" really means - you wouldn't think either of our watches were old enough to have dried out in any way.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's an excellent question; I also wonder as to the solution. What does "overhauled" mean in this context? Were all of those "dried out" mechanisms simply cleaned and relubricated? Or does "overhauled" imply replaced parts?

Could any of the GS representatives get us an answer on that? Joe Kirk, maybe?


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## BarracksSi

Maybe “dried out” and “overhauled” are fill-in-the-blank answers, and they used them to describe what they did when disassembling and reassembling. 

They didn’t give you any guff about the nato strap? That’s cool. I’ve heard stories on here about how Rolex won’t touch a watch if it’s not on its original bracelet.


----------



## capnttom

For those who have Rolexes, and have had them serviced, is the quality of service superior to GS? I have a GS and a Rolex but have not had either serviced yet. 

The driver behind my question has to do with a Tag Heuer 500M diver that I bought new in 2014. Not only has the watch been plagued with quality problems, but the 3 times I’ve had it serviced have resulted in a $2,500 paper weight; not to mention $600 plus I’ve spent on repairs. Needless to say, I won’t be purchasing another TH. 

I point this out to say that any decision related to future purchases will be heavily weighted toward durability and quality of service. This thread underscores this rationale IMHO. 

So far, I have the perception that my GS GMT will be just as durable as my Rolex Subby. Based on this thread, however, GS service leaves a big question in my mind. But in fairness, not sure about Rolex service, hence the nature of my question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DustinS

capnttom said:


> For those who have Rolexes, and have had them serviced, is the quality of service superior to GS? I have a GS and a Rolex but have not had either serviced yet.
> 
> The driver behind my question has to do with a Tag Heuer 500M diver that I bought new in 2014. Not only has the watch been plagued with quality problems, but the 3 times I've had it serviced have resulted in a $2,500 paper weight; not to mention $600 plus I've spent on repairs. Needless to say, I won't be purchasing another TH.
> 
> I point this out to say that any decision related to future purchases will be heavily weighted toward durability and quality of service. This thread underscores this rationale IMHO.
> 
> So far, I have the perception that my GS GMT will be just as durable as my Rolex Subby. Based on this thread, however, GS service leaves a big question in my mind. But in fairness, not sure about Rolex service, hence the nature of my question.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yikes, I need my tag serviced, but god you're not alone is negative views on servicing ;(


----------



## T1meout

capnttom said:


> For those who have Rolexes, and have had them serviced, is the quality of service superior to GS? I have a GS and a Rolex but have not had either serviced yet.
> 
> The driver behind my question has to do with a Tag Heuer 500M diver that I bought new in 2014. Not only has the watch been plagued with quality problems, but the 3 times I've had it serviced have resulted in a $2,500 paper weight; not to mention $600 plus I've spent on repairs. Needless to say, I won't be purchasing another TH.
> 
> I point this out to say that any decision related to future purchases will be heavily weighted toward durability and quality of service. This thread underscores this rationale IMHO.
> 
> So far, I have the perception that my GS GMT will be just as durable as my Rolex Subby. Based on this thread, however, GS service leaves a big question in my mind. But in fairness, not sure about Rolex service, hence the nature of my question.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Generally speaking, Rolex provide excellent service, with exception to vintage models for which parts are no longer available.


----------



## capnttom

T1meout said:


> Generally speaking, Rolex provide excellent service, with exception to vintage models for which parts are no longer available.


Thanks for the feedback.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## watchiseek215

BarracksSi said:


> Maybe "dried out" and "overhauled" are fill-in-the-blank answers, and they used them to describe what they did when disassembling and reassembling.
> 
> They didn't give you any guff about the nato strap? That's cool. I've heard stories on here about how Rolex won't touch a watch if it's not on its original bracelet.


I asked if the strap would be an issue before I sent it in and was told it wouldn't be.


----------



## watchiseek215

BarracksSi said:


> Maybe "dried out" and "overhauled" are fill-in-the-blank answers, and they used them to describe what they did when disassembling and reassembling.
> 
> They didn't give you any guff about the nato strap? That's cool. I've heard stories on here about how Rolex won't touch a watch if it's not on its original bracelet.


I asked if the strap would be an issue before I sent it in and was told it wouldn't be.


----------



## krowe

capnttom said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also keep in mind that Rolex has multiple service centers, you get to pick from LA, Dallas and NYC. 
Seiko has one, you have zero choice in terms of servicing it state side.

Furthermore, I've contacted Grand Seiko US regarding my concerns with servicing by Coserv, multiple times. They didn't even have the decency of replying, that in itself tells you a lot.


----------



## capnttom

krowe said:


> Also keep in mind that Rolex has multiple service centers, you get to pick from LA, Dallas and NYC.
> Seiko has one, you have zero choice in terms of servicing it state side.
> 
> Furthermore, I've contacted Grand Seiko US regarding my concerns with servicing by Coserv, multiple times. They didn't even have the decency of replying, that in itself tells you a lot.


While I love my GS, I'm not going to buy another until they get their act together.

Just bought a new Rolex Datejust, which rounds out my collection for this year. I'm going to acquire a new diver next year, so we'll see what happens.










BTW, this is not a dig against the quality of GS. I can say with all honesty that my GS GMT is every bit as good as my new Rolex and perhaps better with regard to fit and finish. But the difference between the two, in my mind, is largely subjective at this point. Service is a big factor for me.

Nevertheless, they will both get equal wrist time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davemachin

Quick update that i got my snowflake back today, looks perfect and its running well. The form says exactly the same thing as the prior repair, dried out on several tests and that the solution was to overhaul it. Not sure that has any meaning or not. I guess well see how it goes. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## zuiko

Servicing (potential) issues would not push me towards Rolex but it does after seeing how awesome quartz watches are at timekeeping push me towards more quartz and in that sphere ie. HAQ with bling you just can't beat GS.


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## watchiseek215

davemachin said:


> Quick update that i got my snowflake back today, looks perfect and its running well. The form says exactly the same thing as the prior repair, dried out on several tests and that the solution was to overhaul it. Not sure that has any meaning or not. I guess well see how it goes.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was hoping that wasn't the case since you had it sent in only a 1.5 months prior the first time around. Couldn't have dried out that quickly.


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## davemachin

To resurrect an old thread for tracking purposes, the GS snowflake just stopped again! It winds, sets, but wont start back up again. Grrrrrrr. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BarracksSi

davemachin said:


> To resurrect an old thread for tracking purposes, the GS snowflake just stopped again! It winds, sets, but wont start back up again. Grrrrrrr.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Is this the third time? If it were a car, you'd be close to invoking the Lemon Law. Keep us posted about what happens.


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## davemachin

Yes, third time. Its still covered under the last repair’s warranty, so its going back to Seiko tomorrow. I’m not sure what i can ask them to do, other than what they’ve already done twice. Maybe i need to demand they send it back to Japan for a proper fix, but im not sure how to do that. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## berni29

Hi

I think it’s time to insist they replace the movement. Whatever that are doing or have done clearly is not working. 

Just say it’s not the quality you expect from GS. Do they (Seiko service manager) think it is acceptable? 

I would even think about mentioning the forum. The Japanese won’t care, but the service centre will not want the hot potato, and should send it to Japan.

Best of luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jezza

Send it back. It would be nice if you had an email POC and could include a copy of the link to this posting. I enjoy my GS, but if either of them or any other brand exhibited repeated failure, I would expect a new movement at least. 

Jeremy


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## Degr8n8

davemachin said:


> To resurrect an old thread for tracking purposes, the GS snowflake just stopped again! It winds, sets, but wont start back up again. Grrrrrrr.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My heart sank when I read this. I can't imagine how frustrated you must be. At this point, it would be common courtesy for Seiko to just offer a replacement watch. Definitely escalate the issue to Seiko Japan if you must.


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## Mr.Jones82

Oh man, I feel for you. They better just offer a replacement at this point or a high-up executives first born. Good luck


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## SJACKAL

Was just considering to purchase a GSSD when I saw this thread. Disappointing to see.


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## ahonobaka

^No manufacturer or movement is immune to error; I wouldn't let this case be a deterrent for buying a GSSD.

What I would expect though, is a full replacement of the watch. @OP, I'd reach out directly to one of the boutiques, Joe Kirk, etc. and let them know your situation. How they handle this will be the true test of the brand.

And to anyone on the fence, just be sure you buy from a reputable AD, or GS boutique. The expectation of replacement in such cases is not out of line IMO.


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## matador203977

Thanks for sharing. i hope you get it back to your collection


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## davemachin

The watch is on its way to New Jersey- I’ll update the thread as things develop. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SJACKAL

ahonobaka said:


> ^No manufacturer or movement is immune to error; I wouldn't let this case be a deterrent for buying a GSSD.
> 
> What I would expect though, is a full replacement of the watch. @OP, I'd reach out directly to one of the boutiques, Joe Kirk, etc. and let them know your situation. How they handle this will be the true test of the brand.
> 
> And to anyone on the fence, just be sure you buy from a reputable AD, or GS boutique. The expectation of replacement in such cases is not out of line IMO.


Just bought one. Its amazing, looks better than a Rolex.


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## SJACKAL

Spring Drive is amazing. One full week passed and it is still dead on time, +- zero seconds over a week.


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## watchgator

I purchased a SBGE215 when I was back in Japan on business in August. Never used a winder.
Similar to the OP, it just stopped. Can adjust time, holds power and works for a while. But if I let it sit, it will just stop.
I only noticed when I was wearing it.
I am sending to the SCA Service center in NJ today.


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## davemachin

An update just for tracking. I got an email saying they’d received the watch - now it has a repair ID and is waiting on a technician to evaluate it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## el34han

Davemachin, I feel your pain. I can't imagine how sad I'll be if I was in your situation. I sincerely hope they can address your problem this time. If not, I highly advice you send it to Japan. The words 'service' and 'craftsmanship' mean different for Japanese. They are perfectionest and I truely experienced whil I was in Tokyo last year. I don't have any GS yet but have about 30 Seiko including one Landmaster Spring Drive. Thank God I haven't the need to send any one in. Based on my experience. Seiko watches are extremely reliable and trouble free. Since GS and Seiko were same company till couple years ago, I will expect to apply my experience to GS. 
Lot of time because low level employee's hands are tied by policies, or, maybe they are just too lazy to escalate your case, resulting in you going through the same bad repair. I say definitely make a big deal and let GS highter management hear your problem. At least the service manager. Just call and tell them your 'unique' service history. Be polite yet persistance. If he does not listen, go to next level. In my IT line of work, we pay Cisco millions and HP 670K every year for maintenance, yet I had to do exactly what I described to get anything going. Sometimes I had to go to their VP. I know Seiko VP will no way ever talk to people like us. But go as high you can go. Yes, you paid for a good watch why do you have to go through so much trouble just to make it run, but the fact is if you don't, you will not have a running watch. Sorry to say I don't have much faith with the NY service based on the service. At least call the service manager give him your history and ask him what will he do if this was his watch. 
Please do keep us posted. 


el34han


----------



## watchgator

watchgator said:


> I purchased a SBGE215 when I was back in Japan on business in August. Never used a winder.
> Similar to the OP, it just stopped. Can adjust time, holds power and works for a while. But if I let it sit, it will just stop.
> I only noticed when I was wearing it.
> I am sending to the SCA Service center in NJ today.


for tracking purposes.
Sent (and SWA) received on 12/24/18.
They acknowledged receipt on 1/5/19.
Estimated return date of 2/5/19.

Their initial assessment is it just needs lubrication and is covered under warranty.


----------



## Jezza

Yeah, I’d call them on that if possible and elevate, as others have suggested. Lubrication can’t be the issue unless they negligently cleaned the movement and reassembled without oiling the parts. It hasn’t been long enough for the oil to dry or break down. This sort of mechanical failure can happen to any watch or any brand; how they respond is the differentiator. I’m not sure if they track repair history by serial number, but surely if that was the case, any reasonable person would see successive failures of the movement and suggest something different. Also, if they disassembled the movement each time, it’s thst much more wear and tear on the screws, plates, etc.


----------



## davemachin

Update - spoke with the service center a few days ago. They said the technician had said the watch was magnetized, and after demagnetizing it, it was running again. 

The watch has been returned, and i just received it. The work order says that it was magnetized, and that it was demagnetized. Also, it says the Power Reserve Indicator was “not to specification” and was replaced as well as the Planetary Wheel Unit - also replaced. 

So, looks like more was wrong than just being magnetized. 

The returned watch looks like new and is running fine so far. 

Also, these parts were apparently replaced at the New Jersey repair center without sending it back to Japan. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## whineboy

davemachin said:


> Update - spoke with the service center a few days ago. They said the technician had said the watch was magnetized, and after demagnetizing it, it was running again.
> 
> The watch has been returned, and i just received it. The work order says that it was magnetized, and that it was demagnetized. Also, it says the Power Reserve Indicator was "not to specification" and was replaced as well as the Planetary Wheel Unit - also replaced.
> 
> So, looks like more was wrong than just being magnetized.
> 
> The returned watch looks like new and is running fine so far.
> 
> Also, these parts were apparently replaced at the New Jersey repair center without sending it back to Japan.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Funny, a lot of posts here point out Spring Drives are much less susceptible to magnetization than watches with Swiss lever escapements.

Guess the proof will be in how it performs.

All mechanical, all the time


----------



## mxh6229

Good to hear, hopefully no more issues


----------



## gorkem

spring drives hardly fail but expensive to repair


----------



## imbamember

Glad everything got taking care off


----------



## whineboy

gorkem said:


> spring drives hardly fail but expensive to repair


I haven't seen any prices for repairs on Spring Drives, have you? The sticky by Joe Kirk of Grand Seiko gives service costs, the Spring Drive is only about 20% more than a mechanical.

davemachin's watch was repaired under warranty, I believe, so no direct costs to him, just the substantial aggravation.


----------



## davemachin

Yes, all under warranty so far. I’m a little surprised they did part replacements in New Jersey - I thought they may have had to send it to Japan for that. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## whineboy

davemachin said:


> Yes, all under warranty so far. I'm a little surprised they did part replacements in New Jersey - I thought they may have had to send it to Japan for that.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Glad to hear that, you've been through so much they should send you a Presage by way of thanks.

I understand only the chrono GMT Spring Drives have to go to Japan for servicing.


----------



## DayDatenut

> I haven't seen any prices for repairs on Spring Drives, have you? The sticky by Joe Kirk of Grand Seiko gives service costs,


The service price in the sticky is out of date. Current service price of 9R65 = $464

You can get current prices here --> https://www.seikoserviceusa.com/pages/serviceprice/


----------



## whineboy

DayDatenut said:


> The service price in the sticky is out of date. Current service price of 9R65 = $464
> 
> You can get current prices here --> https://www.seikoserviceusa.com/pages/serviceprice/


Thanks, wasn't aware of that page, good to have.

FWIW, the 9S65 is $398 to service. So, the 9R65 is not even 20% pricier to service.


----------



## cinealta

Sorry to hear about your experience. Hope you get it fixed. This is why I'm concerned about spring drives.


----------



## watchgator

watchgator said:


> for tracking purposes.
> Sent (and SWA) received on 12/24/18.
> They acknowledged receipt on 1/5/19.
> Estimated return date of 2/5/19.
> 
> Their initial assessment is it just needs lubrication and is covered under warranty.


Just received this:

Dear SCA Service Center Customer:
Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to service your timepiece. At this time we would like to update you on the status of your repair. We are currently waiting for one or more parts to complete the service of your timepiece. As soon as the part(s) are in stock we will prioritize the repair to ensure you receive your timepiece back as quickly as possible. We apologize for the delay and hope this does not cause any inconvenience to you.


----------



## whineboy

watchgator said:


> Just received this:
> 
> Dear SCA Service Center Customer:
> Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to service your timepiece. At this time we would like to update you on the status of your repair. We are currently waiting for one or more parts to complete the service of your timepiece. As soon as the part(s) are in stock we will prioritize the repair to ensure you receive your timepiece back as quickly as possible. We apologize for the delay and hope this does not cause any inconvenience to you.


Thanks for the update and good luck. The message sounds encouraging.

Please keep us informed, this is a topic of real interest to many people, we appreciate hearing about repairs at the NJ service center.


----------



## watchgator

watchgator said:


> Just received this:
> 
> Dear SCA Service Center Customer:
> Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to service your timepiece. At this time we would like to update you on the status of your repair. We are currently waiting for one or more parts to complete the service of your timepiece. As soon as the part(s) are in stock we will prioritize the repair to ensure you receive your timepiece back as quickly as possible. We apologize for the delay and hope this does not cause any inconvenience to you.


Just called the service center.
They need to replace the hour wheel. They don't have it in stock in NJ. It's on back order and they expect to receive it in 2 weeks.
Once they receive that part then they'll do the full service. The agent on the phone was polite and apologized for the delay.

The timeline:
8/2018--bought in tokyo
12/2018--stopped
12/24/2018--sent to service center
1/5/2019--SCA acknowledged receipt
original estimated 2/5/2018 completion date.

Now I guess early or mid-March for the return


----------



## merfury1989

watchgator said:


> Just called the service center.
> They need to replace the hour wheel. They don't have it in stock in NJ. It's on back order and they expect to receive it in 2 weeks.
> Once they receive that part then they'll do the full service. The agent on the phone was polite and apologized for the delay.
> 
> The timeline:
> 8/2018--bought in tokyo
> 12/2018--stopped
> 12/24/2018--sent to service center
> 1/5/2019--SCA acknowledged receipt
> original estimated 2/5/2018 completion date.
> 
> Now I guess early or mid-March for the return


Substantial wait time...


----------



## heavyweather

Seems easier to send it to Japan directly.


----------



## watchgator

watchgator said:


> Just called the service center.
> They need to replace the hour wheel. They don't have it in stock in NJ. It's on back order and they expect to receive it in 2 weeks.
> Once they receive that part then they'll do the full service. The agent on the phone was polite and apologized for the delay.
> 
> The timeline:
> 8/2018--bought in tokyo
> 12/2018--stopped
> 12/24/2018--sent to service center
> 1/5/2019--SCA acknowledged receipt
> original estimated 2/5/2018 completion date.
> 
> Now I guess early or mid-March for the return


Just received this:
Dear SCA Service Center Customer:
Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to service your timepiece. Please be advised that your timepiece is now with one of our skilled watchmakers. We expect to ship your timepiece back to you within 2 - 3 business days. Should you have any questions you may contact us at 800-722-4452.
Thank you for your loyal patronage of our products.
Sincerely,
SCA Service Center
Customer Service


----------



## BrianBinFL

Good that they are keeping you up to date. Fingers crossed that the end result is satisfactory. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.


----------



## watchgator

watchgator said:


> Just received this:
> 
> Dear SCA Service Center Customer:
> Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to service your timepiece. At this time we would like to update you on the status of your repair. We are currently waiting for one or more parts to complete the service of your timepiece. As soon as the part(s) are in stock we will prioritize the repair to ensure you receive your timepiece back as quickly as possible. We apologize for the delay and hope this does not cause any inconvenience to you.





watchgator said:


> Just called the service center.
> They need to replace the hour wheel. They don't have it in stock in NJ. It's on back order and they expect to receive it in 2 weeks.
> Once they receive that part then they'll do the full service. The agent on the phone was polite and apologized for the delay.
> 
> The timeline:
> 8/2018--bought in tokyo
> 12/2018--stopped
> 12/24/2018--sent to service center
> 1/5/2019--SCA acknowledged receipt
> original estimated 2/5/2018 completion date.
> 
> Now I guess early or mid-March for the return





watchgator said:


> Just received this:
> Dear SCA Service Center Customer:
> Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to service your timepiece. Please be advised that your timepiece is now with one of our skilled watchmakers. We expect to ship your timepiece back to you within 2 - 3 business days. Should you have any questions you may contact us at 800-722-4452.
> Thank you for your loyal patronage of our products.
> Sincerely,
> SCA Service Center
> Customer Service


Just got an email that they have shipped my watch back to me. The timeline is what they told me it would be once they got the missing part in stock.
Will post once I receive it.


----------



## watchgator

watchgator said:


> Just received this:
> 
> Dear SCA Service Center Customer:
> Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to service your timepiece. At this time we would like to update you on the status of your repair. We are currently waiting for one or more parts to complete the service of your timepiece. As soon as the part(s) are in stock we will prioritize the repair to ensure you receive your timepiece back as quickly as possible. We apologize for the delay and hope this does not cause any inconvenience to you.





watchgator said:


> Just called the service center.
> They need to replace the hour wheel. They don't have it in stock in NJ. It's on back order and they expect to receive it in 2 weeks.
> Once they receive that part then they'll do the full service. The agent on the phone was polite and apologized for the delay.
> 
> The timeline:
> 8/2018--bought in tokyo
> 12/2018--stopped
> 12/24/2018--sent to service center
> 1/5/2019--SCA acknowledged receipt
> original estimated 2/5/2018 completion date.
> 
> Now I guess early or mid-March for the return





watchgator said:


> Just received this:
> Dear SCA Service Center Customer:
> Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to service your timepiece. Please be advised that your timepiece is now with one of our skilled watchmakers. We expect to ship your timepiece back to you within 2 - 3 business days. Should you have any questions you may contact us at 800-722-4452.
> Thank you for your loyal patronage of our products.
> Sincerely,
> SCA Service Center
> Customer Service


Just got an email that they have shipped my watch back to me. The timeline is what they told me it would be once they got the missing part in stock.
Will post once I receive it.


----------



## BrianBinFL

watchgator said:


> Just got an email that they have shipped my watch back to me. The timeline is what they told me it would be once they got the missing part in stock.
> Will post once I receive it.


After the wait I hope you are pleased with the result when you receive it. Thanks for keeping us posted.


----------



## watchgator

watchgator said:


> Just got an email that they have shipped my watch back to me. The timeline is what they told me it would be once they got the missing part in stock.
> Will post once I receive it.


I received my watch back today. It came with a manifest of what they reviewed, what the diagnosed as the problem, and that they fixed it (under warranty).
It was packaged well and safely, even in a soft Seiko case. I'll try to post pics later.

The watch is working again now and I assume no problems.

It has been 2+ months since it sent it in for repairs and I kind of forgot why i bought it.
But after having it back, I remember why I bought it in the first place and am glad to have it on my wrist.


----------



## ahonobaka

^Any more details as to what the issue was etc?


----------



## watchgator

Here some pics. It came back well packaged, with the warranty card, and in a nice soft case.


----------



## watchgator

ahonobaka said:


> ^Any more details as to what the issue was etc?


All I can tell is that they replaced the hour wheel. Getting that part in is what took time.


----------



## BarracksSi

AHHHHHHH!!!!!!11!!!1!!! THE BEZEL IS ON UPSIDE DOWN1!1!!!!!!!!!!

oh wait nvm


----------



## BarracksSi

AHHHHHHH!!!!!!11!!!1!!! THE BEZEL IS ON UPSIDE DOWN1!1!!!!!!!!!!

oh wait nvm


----------



## watchiseek215

Oh wow, I didn't expect this thread to still be alive. It's crazy to see watchgator's post about his GS and it randomly stopping. I also saw davemachin's posts and how his randomly stopped again for the 3rd time. Well, To add to all of this, mine's had also stopped again. It happened somewhere mid January 2019 after I got it back from service in April 2018. I'd been meaning to post about it but I kept forgetting until I got my watch back today. It was still within the 1 year service warranty from the last time I sent it in so I was not charged anything. 

What's strange is the solution to all 3 cases. In my service report SCA had also indicated that the planetary wheel unit and power reserve indicator were damaged and needed to be replaced. I guess we'll see if this will be the final solution to the issue.


----------



## Bernardo de Carvalho

Oh man...same problem just happened with my Grand Seiko Spring Drive (SBGA373). Let the torture begin, tomorrow I shall be returning it to the AD for guarantee activation.


----------



## whineboy

Bernardo de Carvalho said:


> Oh man...same problem just happened with my Grand Seiko Spring Drive (SBGA373). Let the torture begin, tomorrow I shall be returning it to the AD for guarantee activation.


Good luck!
Please keep us informed about your experience.

Having a great time.
whineboy


----------



## TransporterG

If you have been to the SD manufacturing site. I would love to show up at the Seiko-Epson facility to the GS workshop, with a SD that had an issue. The fire alarm would probably go off, engineers surrounding you and your watch--this should never happen with SD! Seriously, why would anyone need to put an SD on a winder? It's the best watch there is for winding and time/date setting, seems like the design took rotation into account--unlike my otherwise awesome Oechslin UN GMT perpetual that requires significant time and attention to get back to the right day / date / month / year.


----------



## SolarPower

TransporterG said:


> If you have been to the SD manufacturing site. I would love to show up at the Seiko-Epson facility to the GS workshop, with a SD that had an issue. The fire alarm would probably go off, engineers surrounding you and your watch--this should never happen with SD! Seriously, why would anyone need to put an SD on a winder? It's the best watch there is for winding and time/date setting, seems like the design took rotation into account--unlike my otherwise awesome Oechslin UN GMT perpetual that requires significant time and attention to get back to the right day / date / month / year.


I would like to hear that the root cause was the winder. However, the documented root cause was that it "dried out" and "required an overhaul" and Power Reserve Indicator was "not to specification".
This, if we believe the Seiko service center making correct statements, is very different from magnetization issue. I have my SD GS and it is doing fine, however, with less wrist time it is getting these days I am wondering if I will end up with similar watch stopping problem. Remember, the issue shows up (and in some cases repeatedly) within a few month after it has been "overhauled" and lubricated.

I have my other watches stay stopped for up to 6 month before I wind then up to have the mechanism working and I have not seen any issues with any of them. 
I truly believe that stopping a watch for 6 month should be no problem with modern oils used, and if it is I am worried.


----------



## palletwheel

SolarPower said:


> I have my other watches stay stopped for up to 6 month before I wind then up to have the mechanism working and I have not seen any issues with any of them.
> I truly believe that stopping a watch for 6 month should be no problem with modern oils used, and if it is I am worried.


I have spoken to several watchmakers on the subject and they all say universally, regardless of brand, to wind a watch once a month if you're not wearing it. It keeps the oils from settling and gets the parts lubricated. More than once a month isn't necessary. While modern oils stay effective over a 6 or even 7 year period, that's just going to help you determine perhaps a longer service interval, it doesn't mean you can go long without running the watch.


----------



## SolarPower

palletwheel said:


> I have spoken to several watchmakers on the subject and they all say universally, regardless of brand, to wind a watch once a month if you're not wearing it. It keeps the oils from settling and gets the parts lubricated. More than once a month isn't necessary. While modern oils stay effective over a 6 or even 7 year period, that's just going to help you determine perhaps a longer service interval, it doesn't mean you can go long without running the watch.


Thanks for your input. I am obviously not in a position to argue with the watchmaker's opinions. Just wondering once a month recommendation. I had my watches sit for a year or so and after I wind them they work flawlessly. And this is for many years. My old UG watch which sees this type of service works fine for 70 years now with being serviced sporadically.
Modern oils are good for way more than months. However, this might be designs and the shapes of the surfaces which glide along each other which make the difference. Perhaps modern production yields the precision at which the gaps and distances are so small that the oils inside dry out very quickly, although it still would be unexpected. Perhaps I need to take a modern oil and drop a tiny trace on a metal surface, put it in a tightly closed container and see what happens in 1 / 3 / 6 month intervals.


----------



## Archer

SolarPower said:


> Thanks for your input. I am obviously not in a position to argue with the watchmaker's opinions. Just wondering once a month recommendation. I had my watches sit for a year or so and after I wind them they work flawlessly. And this is for many years. My old UG watch which sees this type of service works fine for 70 years now with being serviced sporadically.
> Modern oils are good for way more than months. However, this might be designs and the shapes of the surfaces which glide along each other which make the difference. Perhaps modern production yields the precision at which the gaps and distances are so small that the oils inside dry out very quickly, although it still would be unexpected. Perhaps I need to take a modern oil and drop a tiny trace on a metal surface, put it in a tightly closed container and see what happens in 1 / 3 / 6 month intervals.


Correct - there's no need to wind a watch once a month or at any set interval. If it's not being used, letting it sit is fine.

Watch oils are held in in the jewels via capillary action. People often state that running the watch gets the oils "circulating" or some other similar word - the inside of a watch is not like a gearbox, so oils don't circulate. They placed very precisely, and watch companies go to a great deal of trouble to make sure that oils stay where they are placed, and don't move around.

I have yet to see any manual (watchmaker or consumer focused) that states that letting a watch sit will cause some sort of harm, and that it needs to be run once a month. If this was important, the watch companies wouldn't keep it a secret. If someone is making a claim that this is required, I would ask them what their reasoning is for this, because as far as I can tell, there isn't any. There's certainly no harm in running a watch once a month if it makes you feel better, but there's no technical reason for it.

Cheers, Al


----------



## BarracksSi

Archer said:


> Correct - there's no need to wind a watch once a month or at any set interval. If it's not being used, letting it sit is fine.
> 
> Watch oils are held in in the jewels via capillary action. People often state that running the watch gets the oils "circulating" or some other similar word - the inside of a watch is not like a gearbox, so oils don't circulate. They placed very precisely, and watch companies go to a great deal of trouble to make sure that oils stay where they are placed, and don't move around.
> 
> I have yet to see any manual (watchmaker or consumer focused) that states that letting a watch sit will cause some sort of harm, and that it needs to be run once a month. If this was important, the watch companies wouldn't keep it a secret. If someone is making a claim that this is required, I would ask them what their reasoning is for this, because as far as I can tell, there isn't any. There's certainly no harm in running a watch once a month if it makes you feel better, but there's no technical reason for it.
> 
> Cheers, Al


And I think it was through you that I learned that, unlike inside a car gearbox, there are different oils in different locations in the watch. So what's being used in one pivot can't be allowed to migrate anywhere else anyway.


----------



## SolarPower

Archer said:


> Correct - there's no need to wind a watch once a month or at any set interval. If it's not being used, letting it sit is fine.
> 
> Watch oils are held in in the jewels via capillary action. People often state that running the watch gets the oils "circulating" or some other similar word - the inside of a watch is not like a gearbox, so oils don't circulate. They placed very precisely, and watch companies go to a great deal of trouble to make sure that oils stay where they are placed, and don't move around.
> 
> I have yet to see any manual (watchmaker or consumer focused) that states that letting a watch sit will cause some sort of harm, and that it needs to be run once a month. If this was important, the watch companies wouldn't keep it a secret. If someone is making a claim that this is required, I would ask them what their reasoning is for this, because as far as I can tell, there isn't any. There's certainly no harm in running a watch once a month if it makes you feel better, but there's no technical reason for it.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Thanks Al for chiming in. It is good to know.


----------



## kritameth

Archer said:


> Correct - there's no need to wind a watch once a month or at any set interval. If it's not being used, letting it sit is fine.
> 
> Watch oils are held in in the jewels via capillary action. People often state that running the watch gets the oils "circulating" or some other similar word - the inside of a watch is not like a gearbox, so oils don't circulate. They placed very precisely, and watch companies go to a great deal of trouble to make sure that oils stay where they are placed, and don't move around.
> 
> I have yet to see any manual (watchmaker or consumer focused) that states that letting a watch sit will cause some sort of harm, and that it needs to be run once a month. If this was important, the watch companies wouldn't keep it a secret. If someone is making a claim that this is required, I would ask them what their reasoning is for this, because as far as I can tell, there isn't any. There's certainly no harm in running a watch once a month if it makes you feel better, but there's no technical reason for it.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Very reassuring to hear this. Thanks Al!


----------



## SpringDriven

Archer said:


> Correct - there's no need to wind a watch once a month or at any set interval. If it's not being used, letting it sit is fine.
> 
> Watch oils are held in in the jewels via capillary action. People often state that running the watch gets the oils "circulating" or some other similar word - the inside of a watch is not like a gearbox, so oils don't circulate. They placed very precisely, and watch companies go to a great deal of trouble to make sure that oils stay where they are placed, and don't move around.
> 
> I have yet to see any manual (watchmaker or consumer focused) that states that letting a watch sit will cause some sort of harm, and that it needs to be run once a month. If this was important, the watch companies wouldn't keep it a secret. If someone is making a claim that this is required, I would ask them what their reasoning is for this, because as far as I can tell, there isn't any. There's certainly no harm in running a watch once a month if it makes you feel better, but there's no technical reason for it.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Consider the Seiko Auto-Relay... It was a Kinetic Quartz (it uses lubrication too) that was designed for sitting months, if not for a couple years, only to wake up when you shake it. It would not have even been considered as a design possibility if watch lubrication moved around, or needed to be circulated.


----------



## palletwheel

Archer said:


> Correct - there's no need to wind a watch once a month or at any set interval. If it's not being used, letting it sit is fine.
> 
> Watch oils are held in in the jewels via capillary action. People often state that running the watch gets the oils "circulating" or some other similar word - the inside of a watch is not like a gearbox, so oils don't circulate. They placed very precisely, and watch companies go to a great deal of trouble to make sure that oils stay where they are placed, and don't move around.
> 
> I have yet to see any manual (watchmaker or consumer focused) that states that letting a watch sit will cause some sort of harm, and that it needs to be run once a month. If this was important, the watch companies wouldn't keep it a secret. If someone is making a claim that this is required, I would ask them what their reasoning is for this, because as far as I can tell, there isn't any. There's certainly no harm in running a watch once a month if it makes you feel better, but there's no technical reason for it.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Hi Al,

Always appreciate your comments. While I didn't ask the reasoning, among the people who told me this was head of US JLC service. This was about 15 years ago, so the person there now probably isn't the same as then, assuming you have any interest in asking them, so I don't know what the current head may say. He's not the only tech over the years that's said this to me, but in any case all I can say is it would have been nice to have you guys together in a room to hear the ensuing duscussion.


----------



## Archer

palletwheel said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> Always appreciate your comments. While I didn't ask the reasoning, among the people who told me this was head of US JLC service. This was about 15 years ago, so the person there now probably isn't the same as then, assuming you have any interest in asking them, so I don't know what the current head may say. He's not the only tech over the years that's said this to me, but in any case all I can say is it would have been nice to have you guys together in a room to hear the ensuing duscussion.


I am always willing to listen to any well reasoned argument on a technical discussion. But in the years when I've been seeing this claim made on forums, I have yet to see any real reasoning presented for it other than the sort of vague "circulating" terms I mentioned previously.

On a very basic level though, if this was an important thing, you would think that it would be noted in a manual for a watch, or that the watchmaking instructors would say something about it in watchmaking school, or when I have been at brand service centers training on their products, but this has never been mentioned as a potential problem.

I do wonder why people who have technical expertise sometimes say things that don't make a lot of technical sense. My general feeling is that often they would rather agree with what they think you already believe, than to try to convince you otherwise, and get into a technical discussion that might be more detailed than the person they are speaking with would understand. Not saying that you, just a general sort of comment. Sop easier to say sure wind it every month, knowing it won't hurt anything to do so, rather than spend 30 minutes explaining the reasons why this really isn't needed.

Again, oils don't migrate anywhere, or circulate in a watch movement. They are placed in small spaces and gaps, mostly between pivots and jewels, and capillary action holds then in place. The oils are designed not to spread, and treatments are used on the movement that create surface tension that further helps prevent spreading of oils. So what would be the purpose of running the watch in this scenario? It's not like running the watch is going to slow the degradation of the oils (if anything it would be the opposite), so really this makes no technical sense as a method of preventing failures of some kind. But again, if a well reasoned argument can be made to the contrary, I'm certainly open to changing my opinion on this.

I can say with my own watches, I may let them sit for 6 months or more between wearing them, with no ill effects in terms of performance or when it comes time for service.

Cheers, Al


----------



## SpringDriven

Another thing to consider. Watch manufacturers do not make one watch at a time. They make all the components and then assemble the watch. This means movements are waiting to be assembled. It is not realistic to assume that they are assembled and sent out to an AD for sale in one month's time. If they are COSC certified, that is more delay for the movement seeing a case.

Also, ADs do not have direction to wind every watch in their inventory on a monthly basis, right?


----------



## watchgator

watchiseek215 said:


> It's crazy to see watchgator's post about his GS and it randomly stopping.


Mine has been working perfectly since I got it back. No complaints


----------



## palletwheel

Archer said:


> I am always willing to listen to any well reasoned argument on a technical discussion. But in the years when I've been seeing this claim made on forums, I have yet to see any real reasoning presented for it other than the sort of vague "circulating" terms I mentioned previously.
> 
> On a very basic level though, if this was an important thing, you would think that it would be noted in a manual for a watch, or that the watchmaking instructors would say something about it in watchmaking school, or when I have been at brand service centers training on their products, but this has never been mentioned as a potential problem.
> 
> I do wonder why people who have technical expertise sometimes say things that don't make a lot of technical sense. My general feeling is that often they would rather agree with what they think you already believe, than to try to convince you otherwise, and get into a technical discussion that might be more detailed than the person they are speaking with would understand. Not saying that you, just a general sort of comment. Sop easier to say sure wind it every month, knowing it won't hurt anything to do so, rather than spend 30 minutes explaining the reasons why this really isn't needed.
> 
> Again, oils don't migrate anywhere, or circulate in a watch movement. They are placed in small spaces and gaps, mostly between pivots and jewels, and capillary action holds then in place. The oils are designed not to spread, and treatments are used on the movement that create surface tension that further helps prevent spreading of oils. So what would be the purpose of running the watch in this scenario? It's not like running the watch is going to slow the degradation of the oils (if anything it would be the opposite), so really this makes no technical sense as a method of preventing failures of some kind. But again, if a well reasoned argument can be made to the contrary, I'm certainly open to changing my opinion on this.
> 
> I can say with my own watches, I may let them sit for 6 months or more between wearing them, with no ill effects in terms of performance or when it comes time for service.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Hi Al,

If you're interested we can move this to the watchmaker forum. I have actually asked this question over the years to a number of watchmakers, in fact about 2 years ago I picked up my Omega AT from service and got the same answer from the tech. I have asked from time to time just to see what people say, though sadly never asked the reasoning because it seemed "obvious" to me, which I will easily grant may not be the case. You're the first to give me a different answer and a good reason to boot, but there must be some diversity of opinion here for so many to say otherwise.


----------



## palletwheel

SpringDriven said:


> Another thing to consider. Watch manufacturers do not make one watch at a time. They make all the components and then assemble the watch. This means movements are waiting to be assembled. It is not realistic to assume that they are assembled and sent out to an AD for sale in one month's time. If they are COSC certified, that is more delay for the movement seeing a case.
> 
> Also, ADs do not have direction to wind every watch in their inventory on a monthly basis, right?


Actually the folks in the NY GS boutique told me they wind them every day. In the past some retailers have mentioned to me that they wind them, but I agree, I have always wondered about the pieces in the vault, which are the ones I always buy, never from the case. And those I have personally experienced a run in period, which is a whole other "controversial" thread, but in truth I have experienced it directly with every watch I've ever bought, something I attributed to the oils circulating, lol. I should ask about that too next time....


----------



## SpringDriven

palletwheel said:


> Actually the folks in the NY GS boutique told me they wind them every day. In the past some retailers have mentioned to me that they wind them, but I agree, I have always wondered about the pieces in the vault, which are the ones I always buy, never from the case. And those I have personally experienced a run in period, which is a whole other "controversial" thread, but in truth I have experienced it directly with every watch I've ever bought, something I attributed to the oils circulating, lol. I should ask about that too next time....


Did you ask why they wind them everyday? Surely it is to demonstrate they are working, not as a means to run the oil around. Otherwise every AD would be directed to do so? Of every brand?


----------



## SpringDriven

An example. Perhaps I will attempt my own photo for the future but I am borrowing this one from the internet.

In this photo you see the oil circle through the cap jewel. This is the state of the majority of lubrication in a watch. A full 360 degree circle of oil around a pivot, due to capillary action. The oil is and stays where it needs to be. The pivot needing lubrication is always in this hole surrounded by the lubrication. Running or sitting does not change this circle of oil.


----------



## SolarPower

palletwheel said:


> Actually the folks in the NY GS boutique told me they wind them every day. In the past some retailers have mentioned to me that they wind them, but I agree, I have always wondered about the pieces in the vault, which are the ones I always buy, never from the case. And those I have personally experienced a run in period, which is a whole other "controversial" thread, but in truth I have experienced it directly with every watch I've ever bought, something I attributed to the oils circulating, lol. I should ask about that too next time....


I never experienced a need for a brak-in for any of my watches. However, as for any mechanical object the break-in is not to circulate oils, but rather to have the surfaces smoothen and aligned to each other on a micro scale after initial manufacturing done.


----------



## Archer

palletwheel said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> If you're interested we can move this to the watchmaker forum. I have actually asked this question over the years to a number of watchmakers, in fact about 2 years ago I picked up my Omega AT from service and got the same answer from the tech. I have asked from time to time just to see what people say, though sadly never asked the reasoning because it seemed "obvious" to me, which I will easily grant may not be the case. You're the first to give me a different answer and a good reason to boot, but there must be some diversity of opinion here for so many to say otherwise.


If you would like to start a thread there, please go ahead. I would be surprised if any trained watchmaker said that winding the watch regularly was necessary to prevent damage.

So when we oil a movement, we apply oils to the interface between the pivot and the jewel:



The amount of oils that is applied is very small - here is my oiler (the tip of this oiler is 0.18 mm wide to give you some perspective) with oil picked up on it from the oil cup I use:



Enough oil is applied to fill that gap, and when you place the oil at the pivot, it gets sucked into the gap via capillary action, and is held there the same way. The best way to check oiling is to oil the watch, then take it apart to check the amount. This is how oiling is checked during the various tests that a watchmaker will have to go through. When you disassemble an oiled watch, and look at the underside of the oiled jewel, you would see this:



There is a small ring of oil on the underside of the jewel, and the diameter of this ring corresponds to the diameter of the shoulder of the wheel. This is actually a vintage watch that I had in for servicing, and this is a disassembly picture - the watch had been serviced years before, but the oil was still retained as it was the day it was applied. Keep in mind this is a macro photo, so this is an incredibly small amount of oil. The entire movement is oiled with literally a few drops of oil.

Now of course there are boatloads of hacks out there servicing watches, so over-oiling is a huge issue I see in watches that come to me from customers who have used bargain watchmakers (hey if a little oil is good, more must be better!). So I see a lot of this...



Here so much oil has been applied that it's running onto the pinion of the wheel - this is far too much oil:



This is another example where so much oil was used in the jewel of the third wheel, that it has gone down the pinion and transferred to the teeth of the seconds wheel, and also onto the pinion of the escape wheel. In a gearbox this is what you want - oil getting to every place possible - not so in a watch movement:



I could show you countless examples of this sort of over-oiling...



Mainsprings soaked in oil are another popular thing with these watchmakers...



So I think when people talk about oil needing to circulate, they are under the impression that there is a lot more oil being used that what is actually supposed to be there. Of course nonsensical marketing shots like this don't help...



The drop of oil there is 20 times what would actually be applied, so take this sort of thing with a large grain of salt.

I also mentioned that surface treatments are applied to the movement - these are referred to as epilame treatments. These are 2 brands commonly used:



These treatments keep oil from spreading, and to illustrate this, here is an example of the difference between how a drop of Moebius 9104 (HP1300) spreads on a piece of glass, where one drop is sitting on an untreated spot, and the other on a spot that was treated with epilame:



This is most often used on the escapement, but brands will essentially treat the entire movement to prevent oil spreading. If oil spreads, that means it's moving away from where it needs to be. This is why parts must be scrupulously cleaned, because dirt and contamination can wick oils away.

Again, I can't say why people are telling you what they are, but there's no sound technical reasoning behind it.

Cheers, Al


----------



## Archer

SolarPower said:


> I never experienced a need for a brak-in for any of my watches. However, as for any mechanical object the break-in is not to circulate oils, but rather to have the surfaces smoothen and aligned to each other on a micro scale after initial manufacturing done.


Break-in is a whole other myth. If you think about it, if watches broke in and changed rates the way people suggest they do, no sort of timing certification would have any value. Not brand timing tolerances, COSC, METAS - none of it would matter if watches changed their rates significantly after the product was delivered to the consumer.

Watches certainly do settle in, but this process happens over a period of hours, so it's not uncommon to see the balance amplitude get a little higher and the rates change slightly over say the first 12 to 24 hours after a watch movement is serviced or first put into service.

I can say that I have seen hundreds of new movements cross my bench, and the timing doesn't change over time. What most people are seeing is changes in timing due to changing wear patterns and positional variation. Even when people say "I haven't changed the way I wear the watch!" that doesn't mean that the watch has spent the same number of hours, in the same positions, at the same states of wind - that is almost impossible to do when wearing a watch through the day.


----------



## Crankshaft

I have to ask about this from a perspective I haven't seen mentioned..
Could the break in be overlooked to you as to pass COSC, the movement is running through tests for two weeks.

On cheaper movements like the one where people say they note a difference after a week say the NH35, I am assuming these movements are built and that's it besides being thrown into a watch or a box until customer gets it going the very first time. So they do see a difference that's mentioned. I keep seeing they run 15spd+ the first week then settle to about 5spd+ or so.

Is this being counted for when saying there is no break in?
I mean are we only thinking about the COSC stuff and discounting the most common ones like Seikos and such?


----------



## Archer

Crankshaft said:


> Is this being counted for when saying there is no break in?
> I mean are we only thinking about the COSC stuff and discounting the most common ones like Seikos and such?


I have had all kinds of movement cross my workbench. Most of the hundreds of new movements I've used are not COSC rated, and they do not change rates over time...


----------



## Crankshaft

Thank you, ok.. Sorry I am thick I guess.

Positional variances, must remember.. positional variances is only reason.


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## Ayoungentrepreneur

@Archer thank you for the detailed posts.

Here I was thinking that I would read this thread sitting back with a a cup of ☕ but I will reread your posts with more focus.


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## Archer

Crankshaft said:


> Thank you, ok.. Sorry I am thick I guess.
> 
> Positional variances, must remember.. positional variances is only reason.


Well, I'm not saying there aren't companies that slap a movement together, do zero testing, and ship it out the door, but that would be the exception and not the rule.

It's well known in the watchmaker community that some Asian movements (clones mostly) are often shipped with very little or no lubrication, so in that case all bets are off as to how it will run over time, but if we are talking about a well established brand with a decent reputation, I wouldn't expect any sort of large timing change over time simply from the movement running.


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## Crankshaft

Archer said:


> Well, I'm not saying there aren't companies that slap a movement together, do zero testing, and ship it out the door, but that would be the exception and not the rule.
> 
> It's well known in the watchmaker community that some Asian movements (clones mostly) are often shipped with very little or no lubrication, so in that case all bets are off as to how it will run over time, but if we are talking about a well established brand with a decent reputation, I wouldn't expect any sort of large timing change over time simply from the movement running.


I hear the expertise in you speaking, thank you.

Just saying that high end stuff is ran for a couple weeks through tests and then final adjustments for higher status. This would more than enough to settle things I would think. Then when you look at say basic NH35.4R35 movement, they get a simple 3 position adjustment, basic reg and dropped into a box basically in first couple days of life. So at most they run a couple days before getting to end user from what I understand.
So them first two weeks could actually help further settle the movement as a whole when COSC and then chronometer settings are applied versus movement with no further tweak or run in, after initial set up.

Then this is contrary to what you said too, there is no difference. It's a odd thing.. I don't mean to keep this thing going but I keep seeing this 10 second drop after first week on new NH35s so argh it's crazy. Positional only or actually a bit of both that and settling in.


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## Archer

Crankshaft said:


> I don't mean to keep this thing going but I keep seeing this 10 second drop after first week on new NH35s so argh it's crazy. Positional only or actually a bit of both that and settling in.


Well, if we look at this from a purely technical point of view, like I did for the "wind it every month" questions, I would need a real technical explanation of what physical changes are happening inside the movement to cause it to run differently. Again if we assume a movement that has been made properly, there's nothing that is going to happen physically to the parts inside in the first couple of weeks that is going to cause a change in timing.

The working parts of the movement are already highly polished, so the pivots that go into the jewels, the leaves of the pinions on the wheels, etc. These do not "wear in" over the course of a couple weeks, and it's rare to find any sort of wear on places like pinion leaves and the teeth they mesh with even after years of running.

So looking at the NH35, here is the accuracy specs I found for the NH3 series movements:



Now I will say the way these tolerances are presented is less than clear, at least compared to what I am used to seeing with other companies. Typically you will have a tolerance for average daily rate, followed by a tolerance for positional variation, and a tolerance for isochronism.

Here I am taking "static accuracy" as the average daily rate tolerance, and that is from -20 to +40 seconds per day.

This is an average of 3 readings they define the positions for, so dial up, 9 up, and 6 up, so they are only measuring 3 positions here. COSC would be measuring 5, and other standards like METAS are 6 positions.

The next one they can "posture difference" which I would assume is the positional variation. They measure this over 4 positions for some reason, so add in 3 up to the original 3 positions listed above. They allow this difference to be up to 60 seconds. Just in case you aren't completely familiar, this is the difference between the rate in the fastest and slowest position. This is a *very large tolerance* to put it mildly.

Now we add in isochronism, which again is -20 to +40 seconds from fully wound to 24 hours after fully wound.

So what I can say based on this, is that the NH35 can vary wildly depending on the state of wind, and the position that is it in.

Ignoring the state of wind right now, let's just use the average rate tolerance, and the positional variation. The average rate can be as low as -20, and as high as +40, with the variation over those three positions as much as 60. So let's do a simple example over 3 positions...

Let's say the first position measured is -30, the second is 0, and the third is +30. The average rate is 0 - great! But depending on how the watch is positioned it could run very slow in one position, and very fast in another. Keep in mind this is an equally weighted average, and for you to get the same result you would have to wear the watch only in those 3 positions over the course of the day for 8 hours exactly in each position. But you don't do that, so there will be positions that are favoured, and those will dominate the timing results.

So if one day you are mostly working at a desk, the timing may be very different than the day you spend more time standing with your arm down at your side. But as far you are concerned, your wearing habits haven't changed, because you wear the watch the same way every day - you put in on at the same time, and wear it for the same number of hours - this is what people generally mean when they say their habits didn't change.

Hope this helps...

Cheers, Al


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## Crankshaft

Thank you so very much for taking time here, and reading through my poorly worded posts.

I owe you a Double-double for this☕


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## SolarPower

Archer said:


> Break-in is a whole other myth. If you think about it, if watches broke in and changed rates the way people suggest they do, no sort of timing certification would have any value. Not brand timing tolerances, COSC, METAS - none of it would matter if watches changed their rates significantly after the product was delivered to the consumer.
> 
> Watches certainly do settle in, but this process happens over a period of hours, so it's not uncommon to see the balance amplitude get a little higher and the rates change slightly over say the first 12 to 24 hours after a watch movement is serviced or first put into service.
> 
> I can say that I have seen hundreds of new movements cross my bench, and the timing doesn't change over time. What most people are seeing is changes in timing due to changing wear patterns and positional variation. Even when people say "I haven't changed the way I wear the watch!" that doesn't mean that the watch has spent the same number of hours, in the same positions, at the same states of wind - that is almost impossible to do when wearing a watch through the day.


Thanks Al. Now as you said that, I can see a happy owner of a new watch during his watch "break-in" period looking at his watch often, enjoying it in different wrist angles and lighting conditions, etc. And then in a week or so, this settled down to normal use pattern. So, if the watch rates changed over this honeymoon week, it would be due to the owner break-in, not the watch


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## SolarPower

Archer said:


> If you would like to start a thread there, please go ahead. I would be surprised if any trained watchmaker said that winding the watch regularly was necessary to prevent damage.
> 
> So when we oil a movement, we apply oils to the interface between the pivot and the jewel:
> 
> 
> 
> The amount of oils that is applied is very small - here is my oiler (the tip of this oiler is 0.18 mm wide to give you some perspective) with oil picked up on it from the oil cup I use:
> 
> 
> 
> Enough oil is applied to fill that gap, and when you place the oil at the pivot, it gets sucked into the gap via capillary action, and is held there the same way. The best way to check oiling is to oil the watch, then take it apart to check the amount. This is how oiling is checked during the various tests that a watchmaker will have to go through. When you disassemble an oiled watch, and look at the underside of the oiled jewel, you would see this:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a small ring of oil on the underside of the jewel, and the diameter of this ring corresponds to the diameter of the shoulder of the wheel. This is actually a vintage watch that I had in for servicing, and this is a disassembly picture - the watch had been serviced years before, but the oil was still retained as it was the day it was applied. Keep in mind this is a macro photo, so this is an incredibly small amount of oil. The entire movement is oiled with literally a few drops of oil.
> 
> Now of course there are boatloads of hacks out there servicing watches, so over-oiling is a huge issue I see in watches that come to me from customers who have used bargain watchmakers (hey if a little oil is good, more must be better!). So I see a lot of this...
> 
> 
> 
> Here so much oil has been applied that it's running onto the pinion of the wheel - this is far too much oil:
> 
> 
> 
> This is another example where so much oil was used in the jewel of the third wheel, that it has gone down the pinion and transferred to the teeth of the seconds wheel, and also onto the pinion of the escape wheel. In a gearbox this is what you want - oil getting to every place possible - not so in a watch movement:
> 
> 
> 
> I could show you countless examples of this sort of over-oiling...
> 
> 
> 
> Mainsprings soaked in oil are another popular thing with these watchmakers...
> 
> 
> 
> So I think when people talk about oil needing to circulate, they are under the impression that there is a lot more oil being used that what is actually supposed to be there. Of course nonsensical marketing shots like this don't help...
> 
> 
> 
> The drop of oil there is 20 times what would actually be applied, so take this sort of thing with a large grain of salt.
> 
> I also mentioned that surface treatments are applied to the movement - these are referred to as epilame treatments. These are 2 brands commonly used:
> 
> 
> 
> These treatments keep oil from spreading, and to illustrate this, here is an example of the difference between how a drop of Moebius 9104 (HP1300) spreads on a piece of glass, where one drop is sitting on an untreated spot, and the other on a spot that was treated with epilame:
> 
> 
> 
> This is most often used on the escapement, but brands will essentially treat the entire movement to prevent oil spreading. If oil spreads, that means it's moving away from where it needs to be. This is why parts must be scrupulously cleaned, because dirt and contamination can wick oils away.
> 
> Again, I can't say why people are telling you what they are, but there's no sound technical reasoning behind it.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Al, thank a lot for sharing all the wisdom! Great pics to illustrate every point made too.

On overoiling, same trend exists with gun enthusiasts. Many run their guns literally oil wet. I always find it amazing how some believe in those theories and make things work worse than they were designed to if oiling them properly. Often times less is more, if done right, of course.

Thanks again for excellent review.


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## palletwheel

Archer said:


> Break-in is a whole other myth. If you think about it, if watches broke in and changed rates the way people suggest they do, no sort of timing certification would have any value. Not brand timing tolerances, COSC, METAS - none of it would matter if watches changed their rates significantly after the product was delivered to the consumer.
> 
> Watches certainly do settle in, but this process happens over a period of hours, so it's not uncommon to see the balance amplitude get a little higher and the rates change slightly over say the first 12 to 24 hours after a watch movement is serviced or first put into service.
> 
> I can say that I have seen hundreds of new movements cross my bench, and the timing doesn't change over time. What most people are seeing is changes in timing due to changing wear patterns and positional variation. Even when people say "I haven't changed the way I wear the watch!" that doesn't mean that the watch has spent the same number of hours, in the same positions, at the same states of wind - that is almost impossible to do when wearing a watch through the day.


Hi Al,

I appreciate what you are saying, but as a good example I just bought a manual wind SBGW231 last week. It has a 3 day power reserve and in any case I'm winding it at the same time every day anyway. It sadly stays dial up all day on my dresser, with very few brief forays. It has gone from +8spd to an average of 6.75spd over 6 days, so it is clearly slowing down over more than one day. Positional variance has played no part in the change I'm seeing. GS has the Grand Seiko standard, which has a lot of reasons why, even though it should be between -3/+5 spd static, I might not actually see it (please read the fine print guys - it's an uncased standard, you're never really guaranteed better than -1/+10 spd). I recently had a NOS Komandirskie that had been serviced starting out at +50 spd go down to +20 spd under similar circumstances. The Komandirskie has no such equivalent standard, lol. I don't have a timeographer, but take daily measurements from time.gov. So I have measured this, modulo positional variance in each case, with stringent standard or none. The tolerance of the standards are such that the changes you see are usually within them, and if not, the companies involved will fix the watch. I can't say why these changes happen, though I can say the GS sat around and came from back stock as all my new watches do, but I can observe them, again modulo positional variance.


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## Archer

First, I have no idea what the model actually is - so is this a manual or automatic movement? So this watch has changed what, 1.25 seconds? I don't know what "brief foray" means in terms of how long is was worn, but 1.25 seconds change is very small. There are possible reasons for seeing slight variations like this, that having nothing to do with break in.

I don't know what details you are referring to with GS specs, but casing the watch will have no effect on timekeeping, unless whoever does the casing is completely incompetent. Most watch collectors don't really fully understand how timing standards work, so I often see people say "the spec is -XX to + XX, and my watch runs outside that, so it must not be meeting the standards" but again, this is not what the standards mean. The standards like -4 to +6 for COSC, 0 to +5 for METAS, or -3 to +5 for GS, are all *average rates*. As I explained in a previous post, positional variation allowed can mean that there are often single positions that run well outside that range. If you wear the watch in one of those a good deal of the time, your watch will run outside that range, but still be well within specs. The specs are intended to be tested for under controlled conditions, using an approved timing machine.

Cheers, Al


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## gorkem

i always put my two spring drive watches on a cheap amazon Chinese winder with no problems over a year, also I use the spring drive diver on holiday swimming and snorkeling without any issue


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## MrGordon

Have you tried to gently shake it with the dial faced down?
That might be worth a try.


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## Pokemon

That's not good. Especially since it was sold in Japan. It's good that you still have warranty left, but it's only 3 years? For the prices they ask for their watches, they should offer more than 3 years warranty. Seiko (normal Seiko) watches have at least 3 years worldwide warranty if I remember correctly, so Grand Seiko should offer something better. I don't know if this will help, but I read a long time ago (I don't remember where sorry) that Spring Drive movements have bad tolerance for shock or sudden bumps, especially hours or even days after. So if you or anyone else like another customer ever dropped the watch, the movement might have been damaged.


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## Sparrowhawk

Pokemon said:


> That's not good. Especially since it was sold in Japan. It's good that you still have warranty left, but it's only 3 years? For the prices they ask for their watches, they should offer more than 3 years warranty. Seiko (normal Seiko) watches have at least 3 years worldwide warranty if I remember correctly, so Grand Seiko should offer something better. I don't know if this will help, but I read a long time ago (I don't remember where sorry) that Spring Drive movements have bad tolerance for shock or sudden bumps, especially hours or even days after. So if you or anyone else like another customer ever dropped the watch, the movement might have been damaged.


Maybe GS should offer a longer warranty, your option if you do not like the warranty GS provides, is not to purchase one.

Not clear on where you read that SD movements are more susceptible to shocks than other movements, (I presume you mean in comparisonto purely mechanical movements), or that they have a poor tolerance for shocks or bumps.
I have never seen, heard, nor read this. From my understanding, this is not true.

If you can find the source you are referencing, please include it.


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## whineboy

Pokemon said:


> That's not good. Especially since it was sold in Japan. It's good that you still have warranty left, but it's only 3 years? For the prices they ask for their watches, they should offer more than 3 years warranty. Seiko (normal Seiko) watches have at least 3 years worldwide warranty if I remember correctly, so Grand Seiko should offer something better. I don't know if this will help, but I read a long time ago (I don't remember where sorry) that Spring Drive movements have bad tolerance for shock or sudden bumps, especially hours or even days after. So if you or anyone else like another customer ever dropped the watch, the movement might have been damaged.


Spring Drive is vastly superior to conventional movements in terms of resistance to shocks and magnetism. 
After years on this subforum I can't recall any SD owner having a problem. 
Please provide a source for your assertion.

Having a great time.
whineboy


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