# Where Seiko Watches Are Really Made - A Juicy Mistake?



## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

About a year ago I became interested in purchasing my first really high end diving watch and began researching many of the better known brands. That lead me to look into the construction of the Spring Drive movement a few months later, and I sent some detailed questions to Seiko, not really expecting to hear back. But, low and behold, a few days later, a female engineer who works for Seiko named Keiko Matsumoto sent me some replies and we kind of struck up a correspondence. (we are both university trained engineers and we both spent some of our education at Tokyo University) In the past seven months or so, I have occasionally received valuable insight from her about not only Seiko products but also watchmaking and their industrial manufacture in general. Because of a thread asking about the SKX007 J and K versions a few days back, I decided to email her to get the low down. She said she could not comment but directed me to a Seiko executive who she said might be helpful. I emailed the guy and this is what he sent back (although, he asked not to be named):

".....due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals. Generally speaking, watches priced below about 90000 yen (currently $838 US dollars) do not contain enough profit margin to be made in Japan. This is not just for Seiko, but for all major Japanese manufacturers. Watches priced roughly from 90000 to 250000 yen (currently $838 to 2328 US dollars) are often finished or with final assembly done in Japan and higher end watches above this point are often fully assembled in Japan. ....."

He then went on to talk about a few other sales points, but then he included a 2013 list for me of where well known Seiko divers are made. Here is the list by price range:

(RP - Raw Parts, MIM= Made in Malaysia, MIC = Made in China, MIJ = Made in Japan, RA = Robot Assembly, HA = Hybrid Assembly (robot and human), HuA - Human Assembly)

Generally Seiko divers and many other models less than about $175 dollars are made of raw parts from China, with assembly done by robots in Malaysia and are overseen by Malaysian technicians.

SKX007 K = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Malaysian Technicians
SKX007 J = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians (which allows the J version to be labeled as Made in Japan)

SBDC001 (Sumo) -almost all Sumo versions - Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians on assembly line

SNM031, 033, etc... (Samurai) - Raw Parts mainly from China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians

SBDC007 (Shogun) - Raw Parts from mainly China, Titanium case machined and finished in Malaysia, MIM, HA, with final oversight done in Japan by human hands

MarineMaster

SBDX001 (MarineMaster 300m) - Raw Parts mainly from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, RA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan (bet this will surprise many as the 8L35 in this watch is robot assembled)

SBDB001 (MarineMaster 600m Titanium) - Spring Drive made in Japan, MIJ, HuA with all assembly overseen by Japanese technicians in Japan

MarineMaster Tuna

SBBN017 - Quartz movement made in Malaysia, MIM, HA with final inspection by Japanese technicians

SBBN015 - Same as SBBN017

SBBN013 - Quartz movement made in Malaysia, MIJ, HuA with all assembly done by Japanese technicians in Japan

(The list also mentions a few other quartz 1000m resistant models. These models all seem to be fully made in Japan by human hands)

SBDX011 - Raw Parts from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, HA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan

SBDB009 - Raw Parts from Japan and Malaysia, Spring Drive made in Japan, MIJ, HuA with all assembly overseen by Japanese technicians in Japan

Grand Seiko

Almost all the Grand Seikos are made from Japanese or Malaysia parts, although some of the quartz movements are made in Malaysia. They are all assembled in Japan by Japanese technicians. Most are hand assembled. The models which receive the most attention are the Hi-Beat models and next are the Spring Drive models.

And the funny thing was, after I received this juicy tidbit, I got another email a few hours later, saying "The previous listing is from production records in the past and does not reflect current Seiko manufacturing standards". The executive even apologized for sending me incorrect information and when I asked him for updated info, he said that he probably could not comment. And I have not heard back since then.

Maybe his accidental release of "old records" will help solve a few WUS Seiko questions. You decide.


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## Maithree (Jan 17, 2013)

Interesting. A friend's father who works for a Japanese firm commented on the QC standards they have compared to firms from other companies. 

He said Japanese companies would accept a defect rate of 1 out of 10000 whereas standards for other manufacturers were 1 out of 500 or thereabouts. And this is for manufacture outside of Japan. 

Nothing to do with Seiko but I thought it interesting nonetheless.


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## at2011 (Jan 23, 2011)

It's not really surprising, the whole world is "Made in China", including almost everything in the USA. Nothing wrong with that, signs of the times.


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## Fastdriver (Mar 15, 2014)

That a little strange, because I have found on a Seiko site this announcement about Spring Drive origin:
"All Grand Seiko Spring Drive watches are made in the Shinshu Watch Studio, high in the mountains of central Japan"
Here is the site:
http://www.grand-seiko.com/manufacture/springdrive_03.html


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

Fastdriver said:


> That a little strange, because I have found on a Seiko site this announcement about Spring Drive origin:
> "All Grand Seiko Spring Drive watches are made in the Shinshu Watch Studio, high in the mountains of central Japan"
> Here is the site:
> 9R Spring Drive | Grand Seiko | SEIKO WATCH CORPORATION


I do not know if that is true, but if it is, it does not contradict the above email release. I can say, his attached manufacturing list does not make mention of a Shinshu Studio. For Spring Drive models that I can see, it indicates made and assembled (by hand) in Japan.


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## raze (Nov 28, 2010)

Great thread. Thanks for sharing. I guess this helps also in solving the mystery of a Sumo case back stamped made in China on one side and made in Japan on the other.


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## chriscentro (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks for sharing, should make this into a stick.


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## SEIKOtuna (Sep 11, 2014)

Nice. Odd that an exec would randomly give you that detailed of a response into the manufacturing process. Good to know the work that went into the SBDB009, I feel better about wasting all that money


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

It's essentially the kosher version of assembly and I'm cool with that. 

Hope whomever this person was didn't lose their job over potentially proprietary information.


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

Yeah, seems like quite a bit of info. Good info for us, but I certainly hope it didn't cause anybody too many headaches. It does make total sense regarding the price brackets though, and I think finally clears up the K/J confusion people tend to keep having.

The only one that surprised me a little was the Shogun and how they seem to put a bit more care into it than the Sumo. After holding both in the hand and owning one, it makes sense.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

sierra11b said:


> It's essentially the kosher version of assembly and I'm cool with that.
> 
> Hope whomever this person was didn't lose their job over potentially proprietary information.


Yeah, I have a feeling this guy planned to send me some bland marketing PDF but instead sent the real deal by accident. Oh well, our potential gain.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Good to know, thanks.


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## Byfrost (Dec 23, 2008)

jayhall0315 said:


> About a year ago I became interested in purchasing my first really high end diving watch and began researching many of the better known brands. That lead me to look into the construction of the Spring Drive movement a few months later, and I sent some detailed questions to Seiko, not really expecting to hear back. But, low and behold, a few days later, a female engineer who works for Seiko named Keiko Matsumoto sent me some replies and we kind of struck up a correspondence. (we are both university trained engineers and we both spent some of our education at Tokyo University) In the past seven months or so, I have occasionally received valuable insight from her about not only Seiko products but also watchmaking and their industrial manufacture in general. Because of a thread asking about the SKX007 J and K versions a few days back, I decided to email her to get the low down. She said she could not comment but directed me to a Seiko executive who she said might be helpful. I emailed the guy and this is what he sent back (although, he asked not to be named):
> 
> ".....due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals. Generally speaking, watches priced below about 90000 yen (currently $838 US dollars) do not contain enough profit margin to be made in Japan. This is not just for Seiko, but for all major Japanese manufacturers. Watches priced roughly from 90000 to 250000 yen (currently $838 to 2328 US dollars) are often finished or with final assembly done in Japan and higher end watches above this point are often fully assembled in Japan. ....."
> 
> ...


Hi jayhall0315

Would it possible to show us a screen shot of this correspondence, probably would be good for archival purposes. You could censor sensitive information like the names of the people and their email addresses but leave important details behind (instead of censoring the full email address, you may want to leave the "@seiko.co.jp" back) so we know it came from a reliable source. Not that it is a trust issue but would be great to provide evidence on this rather than I could also start a similar thread stating I got an email from Seiko and they told me that a SKX007J is entirely Made and hand assembled in Japan ya know?

As such detailed information is such rare thing to come by, would be nice to have those screen shots of the email correspondence. 

Cheers!


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Good call. A screenshot would also allow this information to be added to some sort of stikied info-thread. (and solve countless forum debates, no doubt  )


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## Fastdriver (Mar 15, 2014)

Could it be that someone that doesn't like Seiko, Or have any interest to slander Seiko, Send you the paper?


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## noenmon (Nov 19, 2013)

Pah, everyone knows that Seiko watches are forged from moonlight by elves while the ghost of Kintarō Hattori (K version) or some Japanese dude (J version) is watching over them. I personally don't care where Seiko has those elves imprisoned.


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## CharlieBandroid (Feb 10, 2013)

Some cultures have taken a lesson from a famous American former President, setting the intended actual meaning and definition of words quite alternate to their common and supposedly textural norm. It depends on what your definition if "is" is.....

If you can define "made in Japan" by law as having little bits and pieces cut, molded, cast, stamped, and created in Lower Boltavia, those pieces being fit to each other in Wagistan (by fine Wagistani crasftsmen at that!), all in factories owned by Nippon Offshore Factory Company, who leases them to Seiko, at that point you can also say that the NOF local manager, who "supervises" the assembly, actually is only making sure the Wagistani craftsmen punch their time cards within the alotted check in time every morning. And you can also define the Wagistani craftsmen as the group of people who uncrate the Lower Boltavian parts each shift for that shifts production, and merely dump them willy-nilly into hoppers. That being the same as the famous watch "making" studio high in the central mountains, who actually can claim that title because they take the Wagistani movements and bracelets out of a shipping drum, and put each into a nicely printed watch box, which recently arrived by the starfreighter-load from Planet Frengus.

I still love my Sumo, no matter if its a Lower Boltavian / Wagistani red herring of an odd duck's stepchild. I say that because the Frengusian box is out of this world!


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## Adman (May 11, 2010)

Fascinating information. Thank you so much for sharing.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

sierra11b said:


> It's essentially the kosher version of assembly and I'm cool with that.
> 
> Hope whomever this person was didn't lose their job over potentially proprietary information.


If real, I can't think of any company that would not terminate someone over that. If they became aware if it of course, and could source the person. Depending on how the person sent it, Seiko could possible find the email relatively easily. If the person sent it in confidence, the OP may have put this persons employment in jeopardy.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

It's not culturel; what is stamped on the case back, the movement, or printed on the dial is dictated by the import laws and requirements of the country for which the watch is intended to be exported to and sold in. You can google that and read these laws yourself.

Combine that with consumer perception and marketing: consumers often attached more value to products in certain categories if they are made in one country over another. German engineering and workmanship for example. Or Japanese. In photography, "Made in Japan" lenses are more desirable than "made on China". So Seiko, when it can, will stamp "Made on Japan" on watches because they can charge a little more. Many "Swiss Made" watches have their works made in China too.



CharlieBandroid said:


> Some cultures have taken a lesson from a famous American former President, setting the intended actual meaning and definition of words quite alternate to their common and supposedly textural norm. It depends on what your definition if "is" is.....
> 
> If you can define "made in Japan" by law as having little bits and pieces cut, molded, cast, stamped, and created in Lower Boltavia, those pieces being fit to each other in Wagistan (by fine Wagistani crasftsmen at that!), all in factories owned by Nippon Offshore Factory Company, who leases them to Seiko, at that point you can also say that the NOF local manager, who "supervises" the assembly, actually is only making sure the Wagistani craftsmen punch their time cards within the alotted check in time every morning. And you can also define the Wagistani craftsmen as the group of people who uncrate the Lower Boltavian parts each shift for that shifts production, and merely dump them willy-nilly into hoppers. That being the same as the famous watch "making" studio high in the central mountains, who actually can claim that title because they take the Wagistani movements and bracelets out of a shipping drum, and put each into a nicely printed watch box, which recently arrived by the starfreighter-load from Planet Frengus.
> 
> I still love my Sumo, no matter if its a Lower Boltavian / Wagistani red herring of an odd duck's stepchild. I say that because the Frengusian box is out of this world!


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## Domo (Sep 20, 2013)

It all sounds about right. I always wondered how they made the 8L35, because I couldn't picture Shizuku-ishi still assembling that calibre considering it is outdated.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Good idea, but that can be faked to. Even if out of date, this is not info that any watch maker would want leaked. It seems that many watch makers go to great lengths to create the impression that their products are made in countries in which consumers perceive there is inherent engineering and workmanship prowess. Could you image the damage if the same kind of info emerged in a public forum about many Swiss watch companies?

There are several possibilities of who provided this info to the OP ... and why. Competitive misinformation. A rogue or disgruntled employee. An accident, attaching the wrong file, or responding to someone he thought was approved for sharing this with (referred from the first engineer). Poor judgement. Naively believing the info would be help in confidence. Or all a hoax ("University trained engineer" is an odd term to describe oneself, and struck me immediately as such; stopped me dead in my tracks actually. Who says that? By definition, an engineer is "university trained").

However, we all know the essence of this to be correct. Even Grand Seiko's web site is careful to claim "most parts" are made in-house, and no where claims "100% in-house", as is repeated on sites like these so much we accept it on blind faith. We all know that Japanese import laws on watches allow any watch made by a Japanese owned factory to be labeled as "Made in Japan", as long as intended for sale in Japan (and there is no requirement for "assembly line supervision; just owned and operated). We have all known that most if not all lower level JDM watches are mostly made outside Japan in this manner. The only surprise to any of is would be the claims on some of the middle level watches like the MM300.



Roy87 said:


> Hi jayhall0315
> 
> Would it possible to show us a screen shot of this correspondence, probably would be good for archival purposes. You could censor sensitive information like the names of the people and their email addresses but leave important details behind (instead of censoring the full email address, you may want to leave the "@seiko.co.jp" back) so we know it came from a reliable source. Not that it is a trust issue but would be great to provide evidence on this rather than I could also start a similar thread stating I got an email from Seiko and they told me that a SKX007J is entirely Made and hand assembled in Japan ya know?
> 
> ...


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## RejZoR (May 12, 2010)

Same .... i have to explain pretty much daily at work. In our country people are still very fond to the fact it says "Made in Slovenia" on a product. But ironic thing is, Bosch, a German company has manufacturing facilities here in Slovenia and they make Bosch labeled products with "Made in Slovenia" text on them. Gorenje on the other hand, the largest Slovenian manufacturer similar to Bosch makes products in China. And they are labeled as "Made in China" or "Made in PRC". And people are so bothered by that, but they keep on forgetting it is still designed by the Slovenian company and manufacturing processes is still supervised by them. The same as Bosch has strict quality assurance for a german product made in our country, so have we there in China.
It's no different with Seiko. Like someone above said, they may be Made in China, but they demand so much higher standards it doesn't really matter in the end because those standards are at the end of the day equal to those in Japan. Maybe it's a myth, but ever since i can remember, i know Japanese people are obsessed with that. Precision, control, procedures etc. And that applies to everything they make, cars, electronics, watches. kinda similar to Germans. Just a bit different.


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## mcnabbanov (Feb 21, 2014)

I don't think this is anything new...For the most part confirms what we all thought/knew about the seiko manufacturing process but in a bit more detail. in all of the threads asking about this, this is the conclusion reached other than a few J fanboy collectors with big imaginations ;-)


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## peacemaker885 (Dec 25, 2009)

mcnabbanov said:


> I don't think this is anything new...For the most part confirms what we all thought/knew about the seiko manufacturing process but in a bit more detail. in all of the threads asking about this, this is the conclusion reached other than a few J fanboy collectors with big imaginations ;-)


For a few bucks more, I still prefer a J


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## Munchie (Dec 20, 2013)

mcnabbanov said:


> I don't think this is anything new...For the most part confirms what we all thought/knew about the seiko manufacturing process but in a bit more detail. in all of the threads asking about this, this is the conclusion reached other than a few J fanboy collectors with big imaginations ;-)


This one goes up to 11:-d


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Roy87 said:


> ... you may want to leave the "@seiko.co.jp" back) so we know it came from a reliable source


Because it's impossible to fake an email? I can send you a screenshot of an e-mail sent by Hattori-san himself, saying all these information are bogus (or completely true) ;-)


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

Interesting. Lol @ stamped "made in japan" on one side of the case and "made in china" on the other. Shady as hell, common or not. I was going to drop $500 on a sumo very soon. Not anymore. Thanks for the info.


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## sticky (Apr 5, 2013)

I found the bit about the $838 threshold interesting as other manufacturers claim that all their watches are made in Japan.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

sticky said:


> I found the bit about the $838 threshold interesting as other manufacturers claim that all their watches are made in Japan.


Well, it seems that the true key difference is whether they mean "made in Japan" (tm) (c) (r) (pat. pending) printable moniker, with all this shady legal wishy-washy halftruthing (same category as "Swiss Made"), or 'made in Japan' as understood by all normal people simply conversing.

Is there any legal document that can be looked up to find what officially constitutes a "made in Japan" label for watches etc.?


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## Likestheshiny (Nov 28, 2011)

This list doesn't seem especially scandalous to me. I don't think we knew some of the details, but the big picture is pretty much exactly what people already thought.


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## balzebub (May 30, 2010)

The only surprise is that the list claims that the 8L35 is robot and machine assembled..

Sent via carrier pigeons


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## crazeazn (Nov 21, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well, it seems that the true key difference is whether they mean "made in Japan" (tm) (c) (r) (pat. pending) printable moniker, with all this shady legal wishy-washy halftruthing (same category as "Swiss Made"), or 'made in Japan' as understood by all normal people simply conversing.
> 
> Is there any legal document that can be looked up to find what officially constitutes a "made in Japan" label for watches etc.?


Somebody who is in fluent in Japanese would need to look/find and then translate the Japan export custom rules (in addition have business background in order to translate correctly). Each country has different pass through, no-resale, final assembly rules so its very difficult to assess that to our subjective belief of what "Made in XYZ" is. There are so many moving parts involved in that.

example: Complying with the Made in USA Standard | BCP Business Center

Even in the US, we have the "all" or "virtually all" >> this has plenty of latitude of what constitutes a "significant part"...

The saving grace is that we all know that Seiko is a HIGHLY vertically integrated company. They design, create, and fab everything from end to end so even if a "Made in Japan" stamp may be diluted with other countries and manufacturing, I feel okay because it means that someone in the Seiko supply chain (more than likely from Japan) had their hand involved in that process.

That being said, I do love the fact that my Toyota 4runner is Made in Japan, and believe that certain components perceivably are better built because of that namesake.

What if it was an American (for the sake of argument, Caucasian) in Japan hand-making the high end Grand Seiko? How would yall feel about that?


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

Roy87 said:


> Hi jayhall0315
> 
> Would it possible to show us a screen shot of this correspondence, probably would be good for archival purposes. You could censor sensitive information like the names of the people and their email addresses but leave important details behind (instead of censoring the full email address, you may want to leave the "@seiko.co.jp" back) so we know it came from a reliable source. Not that it is a trust issue but would be great to provide evidence on this rather than I could also start a similar thread stating I got an email from Seiko and they told me that a SKX007J is entirely Made and hand assembled in Japan ya know?
> 
> ...


It would be possible but I believe this Seiko exec completely released this by accident and I have the same concerns some of you do that he might suffer if further details are released. I understand some may think it is fake or a reverse plant or some trick, etc... but that is why I labeled it "...Juicy Mistake?". I have no special vested interest in Seiko or Swiss brands, other than I own two inexpensive Seikos and will soon purchase my first higher end diver (a Darth Tuna).



Okapi001 said:


> Because it's impossible to fake an email? I can send you a screenshot of an e-mail sent by Hattori-san himself, saying all these information are bogus (or completely true) ;-)


Yes, true. Other side of the coin. I put this information out there, 'as is' and if you believe it is genuine or fake, that is up to you. I just found it interesting and thought I would post it for discussion. I have no way of verifying if this email attachment is completely valid. Because of the manner in which it was sent, I believe it is probably genuine but that is my own personal opinion.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

nepatriot said:


> Good idea, but that can be faked to. Even if out of date, this is not info that any watch maker would want leaked. It seems that many watch makers go to great lengths to create the impression that their products are made in countries in which consumers perceive there is inherent engineering and workmanship prowess. Could you image the damage if the same kind of info emerged in a public forum about many Swiss watch companies?
> 
> There are several possibilities of who provided this info to the OP ... and why. Competitive misinformation. A rogue or disgruntled employee. An accident, attaching the wrong file, or responding to someone he thought was approved for sharing this with (referred from the first engineer). Poor judgement. Naively believing the info would be help in confidence. Or all a hoax ("University trained engineer" is an odd term to describe oneself, and struck me immediately as such; stopped me dead in my tracks actually. Who says that? By definition, an engineer is "university trained").
> 
> However, we all know the essence of this to be correct. Even Grand Seiko's web site is careful to claim "most parts" are made in-house, and no where claims "100% in-house", as is repeated on sites like these so much we accept it on blind faith. We all know that Japanese import laws on watches allow any watch made by a Japanese owned factory to be labeled as "Made in Japan", as long as intended for sale in Japan (and there is no requirement for "assembly line supervision; just owned and operated). We have all known that most if not all lower level JDM watches are mostly made outside Japan in this manner. The only surprise to any of is would be the claims on some of the middle level watches like the MM300.


Can't comment on the competitive misinformation possibility or other derivatives you mention (my feeling is that the email was genuine) but the reason I mentioned university trained engineer is that my toilet was fixed two weeks ago by a man who claims he is a "sanitation engineer". And who knows, that claim may be true. Perhaps he is a sanitation engineer. One thing is for sure though, he did not have a good command of calculus, ordinary and partial differential equations, linear algebra, computer programming, etc...... i.e. the skills that real engineers learn in a university over four to six years. You catch my drift?
While Keiko may be moonlighting at night as the Japanese version of Cat Lady, I can say she is certainly an engineer and it clearly shows in her communication.


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## Triton9 (Sep 30, 2011)

peacemaker885 said:


> For a few bucks more, I still prefer a J


What about few hundred dollars?


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## Triton9 (Sep 30, 2011)

Does the truth hurt many of those still clinging onto their "Made in Japan" which really worth the extra few hunded dollars?


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## Outlawyer (Feb 21, 2009)

"Almost all Sumo versions" aren't there only three?


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## CharlieBandroid (Feb 10, 2013)

Unless directed by despot or tyrant, one might conclude that the laws and customs are at least a semi transparent reflection upon the culture they perportedly govern.

That all has nothing to do with watchmaking, which the Seiko companies do with skill, grace, and dignity, if not perfection.

My sarcastic fictional account only serves to accentuate that what I say "Made in the USA" is, can be totally different, totally misunderstood, taken backwards even, buy persons living in other countries, with other cultures defined within their ascribed laws.



nepatriot said:


> It's not culturel; what is stamped on the case back, the movement, or printed on the dial is dictated by the import laws and requirements of the country for which the watch is intended to be exported to and sold in. You can google that and read these laws yourself.
> 
> Combine that with consumer perception and marketing: consumers often attached more value to products in certain categories if they are made in one country over another. German engineering and workmanship for example. Or Japanese. In photography, "Made in Japan" lenses are more desirable than "made on China". So Seiko, when it can, will stamp "Made on Japan" on watches because they can charge a little more. Many "Swiss Made" watches have their works made in China too.


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## carlowus (Oct 12, 2008)

Thank you for sharing the data. Obviously not what the majority was expecting but then with the global economy it makes sense that certain components of the movement for example are all made in one location, 4r, 6r and 7s movements seem to be similar and share parts. I don't think less of Seiko for this, I normally don't judge by the brand name or country of origin but by how the watch looks to me personally, if it is well made and it works, it could be made in Mars for what I care.

However if the lie is used as a deception to increase prices and profits, then it simply it NOT cool at all.


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## Fastdriver (Mar 15, 2014)

Fastdriver said:


> That a little strange, because I have found on a Seiko site this announcement about Spring Drive origin:
> "All Grand Seiko Spring Drive watches are made in the Shinshu Watch Studio, high in the mountains of central Japan"
> Here is the site:
> 9R Spring Drive | Grand Seiko | SEIKO WATCH CORPORATION





jayhall0315 said:


> I do not know if that is true, but if it is, it does not contradict the above email release. I can say, his attached manufacturing list does not make mention of a Shinshu Studio. For Spring Drive models that I can see, it indicates made and assembled (by hand) in Japan.


If we are going to believe to Seiko, Then contradiction on one part of the email my reflects on other parts of it, Without getting into the question where some models, especially the lower priced, Are made.
I don't think that manpower costs for producing Seiko most precious watches, Priced between $4,000 to $7,000, and which need the most tight control and the most skill workers, Worth made them outside Japan.


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

One thing is for sure. This thread will hurt Seikos sales, period.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Does this information really make a difference to most of us?

It's interesting but I doubt it will deter any real Seiko fan from purchasing a watch.

What this did was confirm for me that all manufacturers are employing processes that are more economical and less expensive. It also confirmed for me that darn near ALL watches are overpriced and, for the most part, are not good investments. I mean, let's face it, it probably costs Seiko around $100 to $150 to make the Sumo, for example, and Higuchi sells it for around $460. There is no way anyone can call that a good investment. Watches are not purchased because they are needed. Rather, watches are purchased because they are desired/wanted and people will pay for them. That's the game we play.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

Great post. Thanks.

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk


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## CharlieBandroid (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm trying to wrap my brain arouund the deception speculation.....

Having a hard time doing that.

Here's why. You'd have to say that Seiko was deceiving the Japanese people to have deception as a cause for the nomenclature. That is to say, most of.... perhaps not all, but most of the products are for Japan Domestic Market. Either Seiko is really pulling the wool over the eyes of their home market, or (as I alluded to in the sarcastic illustration and explanation thereof) there exists a cultural norm, supported by the law in Japan, that items made in wholly run Japanese factories, supervised by Japanese staff, are defacto Japanese, no matter if made in the Japanese homeland, or offshore. That is the way they do business. The cultural and legal norm for what is Japanese, is highly different than say, what is made in the UK, or USA or other countries.

If GM set up a factory in Tuskaloosa, would would the cars made there be any worse than the cars made in Detroit, or Flint, or Dearborn? Well... maybe a little better than anything made in Flint... but I digress.... Its all a GM factory. All the same.

I know nothing about the production of watch movements by robot. I do know a bit about manufacturing. Seiko works with few, if any, outside parts vendors. This they proudly state. They make crystals, even springs, in house. I doubt they even bring in the presentation boxes from an outside vendor. It is their proud corporate history, and culture. You also need to know that all tooling (in the watch business or almost any other manufacturing business) is made in house too. It has to be. You literally cannot go on to the market and buy a "watch movement making machine". That is not the case. We say "robotic" assembly, but there is more than likely very little actual robotic use. Robots in assembly have the ability to be programmed to make varying structures, selecting tooling from a variety available. That is, say, in circuit board manufacture, a robot can be programmed to populate and assemble any number of different circuit boards. In more mechanical manufacturing, its not unusual to have "hard automation" which are purpose built machines to assemble certain mechanical devices. You can also hybrid assembly between robotic (aka smart) and hard automation (which also can be smart, but is still purpose built).

All of this points to consistant quality. Seiko makes all the parts. They made the tooling to make the parts. They made the tooling to assemble and test the parts (hard or robotic... really doesn't matter), and they oversee it all.

Seiko does not go to Hing-Wan's Watch Movement and Specialty Fish Packaging for sub-assemblies or whole movements. They go to Seiko Maylasia or Seiko China or where ever they have interests.

It is not in Seiko's best interest to produce inferior products. It is in their best interest to produce a product to specification so that the perceived value and features remain consistant in the eyes of the marketplace. That would be YOU and ME.

J vs K.... whatever. One goes to lots of places. One goes to fewer places. One goes to regular folks who want a nice watch. One goes to the same people in a smaller market and to folks who have a certain fascination for labeling.


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## Jcp311 (Mar 20, 2013)

jalcon said:


> One thing is for sure. This thread will hurt Seikos sales, period.


Why?

None of this surprises me at all. It's like learning your toyota was made in Texas or Indiana with Japanese (and MIC) parts.


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

In the grand scheme in things it might not. But this is def surprising to some. I mean if a watch says Made in Japan on the back, and you open it and on the same exact piece of metal you just read Made in Japan on now says Just kidding made in China on the other side, is thay not a little misleading?

This thread will be brought up for years in google searches, and to think it wont sway some people is just wishful thinking. I mean, right - 19/20 people that buy seikos will never visit this forum at all but still, it'll make a dent, albeit a tiny one.


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## Spring-Diver (Jan 26, 2009)

Excellent info OP:-!

Cheers
Shannon


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## nordland_nl (Jan 29, 2014)

This answers a lot of questions. Thanks for sharing!


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

jalcon said:


> In the grand scheme in things it might not. But this is def surprising to some. I mean if a watch says Made in Japan on the back, and you open it and on the same exact piece of metal you just read Made in Japan on now says Just kidding made in China on the other side, is that not a little misleading?
> 
> This thread will be brought up for years in google searches, and to think it wont sway some people is just wishful thinking. I mean, right - 19/20 people that buy seikos will never visit this forum at all but still, it'll make a dent, albeit a tiny one.


Doubtful.

If people are really naive enough to think that Seikos are made completely in Japan then they really are clueless. It's no different than people thinking that all Ford products are made in Detroit, MI. The fact that Ford manufacturers some of its automobiles in Mexico certainly hasn't hurt Ford sales numbers.

The people who are deterred from buying a Seiko because of this information really weren't considering a Seiko to begin with.


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

rosborn said:


> Doubtful.
> 
> If people are really naive enough to think that Seikos are made completely in Japan then they really are clueless. It's no different than people thinking that all Ford products are made in Detroit, MI. The fact that Ford manufacturers some of its automobiles in Mexico certainly hasn't hurt Ford sales numbers.
> 
> The people who are deterred from buying a Seiko because of this information really weren't considering a Seiko to begin with.


Agreed. If you think Seiko's markings are deceptive, you should really ignore most of the watch market in general. And the clothing market. And the car market... You get the point. 

If I'm buying shoes for $100, I'm not under the impression it was hand sewn in an Italian workshop. I am very well aware that robots and automated processes were involved in making it and I am just fine with that. If I want a hand-sewn pair of really good quality shoes, I'll cough up the $1000+ necessary for Edward Green's or Saint Crispin's.

Same with Seiko's. If I want a watch that was hand assembled by someone making Japanese wages in Japan and trained as a master watchmaker, I'll cough up the amount necessary for a GS or high end Credor.

-adi4


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

I have a polo ralph lauren shirt on right now. It says made in Malaysia. It's not like I says made in Italy on the front of the tag, and if I turn it over it then says Made in Malaysia, lmao.

Lets face it, where a watch is made I huge facet of how a watch is perceived. Putting "made in japan" on the case and on the dial when in fact it has was not "made in japan" only further proves point. It's a blantant lie. Do you think they would ever put "made in china" on a dial? Hell no, it would just be left blank 

Its deceptive, plan and simple. Uhh..clothes are not that way. Some cars may be that way such as American cars having foreign parts ect but at LEAST they are put together in the states.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

To further add to the discussion I would also mention that early on when I was researching Rolex and Omega, I remember coming across a business estimate that showed that Rolex makes about 3000 watches a day. (does it qualify for elite status if more than one million are made every year?) Many of Rolex's lower end models (like the Sub) are assembled by robot and final checked by a human technician. Various sources also put the price of the Rolex Sub 3135 movement (as an example) as less than $200 with an additional fee for COSC certification (which is a Rolex invention anyway). And if I remember correctly, the total cost of production (for Rolex) to make a Sub was about $480. And yet they sell this watch at official dealers for about $7700 to $8300. So almost $7500 profit on name value alone?


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

jayhall0315 said:


> To further add to the discussion I would also mention that early on when I was researching Rolex and Omega, I remember coming across a business estimate that showed that Rolex makes about 3000 watches a day. (does it qualify for elite status if more than one million are made every year?) Many of Rolex's lower end models (like the Sub) are assembled by robot and final checked by a human technician. Various sources also put the price of the Rolex Sub 3135 movement (as an example) as less than $200 with an additional fee for COSC certification (which is a Rolex invention anyway). And if I remember correctly, the total cost of production (for Rolex) to make a Sub was about $480. And yet they sell this watch at official dealers for about $7700 to $8300. So almost $7500 profit on name value alone?


Thats pretty interesting indeed..


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

Also for consideration, there are various estimates as to how many genuine Rolexes there are out there in the wild, but the most common number I see is about 40 million. If there are about 7,250,000,000 people on Earth and all 40 million Rolexes were evenly distributed (which they are not) then about one person in every 181 would have a genuine Rolex. Of course the top 1% of the world's richest own about 43% of everything (isn't that startling) so we need to throw in a little Gaussian statistics and some mean integration. And if we do that, we still come up with a more intelligent guessing range that about one out of every 3000 to 5000 in the First World owns a Rolex. 

(the reason why there is much disagreement is the average number of genuine Rolex watches that a wealthy owner actually owns)

Just food for thought.

(and if you factor in some estimates that fakes outnumber real Rolexes by a ratio of 5 or 4:1, then alot of people all over the world own a $480 watch or a $150 replica of a $480 watch  )


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

No surprises imo, this is just standard practice for many big companies, doesnt change the fact that Seiko make great watches.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

jalcon said:


> Its deceptive, plan and simple. Uhh..clothes are not that way. Some cars may be that way such as American cars having foreign parts ect but at LEAST they are put together in the states.


It's our fault for demanding lower prices (like we ever would not). :-s


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## daveya (Nov 21, 2009)

adi4;8362815
Same with Seiko's. If I want a watch that was hand assembled by someone making Japanese wages in Japan and trained as a master watchmaker said:


> Well yes you would, point being that's because you now know you have to, prior to this thread everyone thought made in Japan was a little less haphazard on Seikos and you didn't need to spend quite so much to enjoy a genuine 'made in Japan'


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## fjblair (Apr 24, 2009)

I find it curious that of the thousands of email inquiries that Seiko receives every year that THIS guy gets the secret recipe that everyone is asking for..........


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## daveya (Nov 21, 2009)

Why would he lie?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

fjblair said:


> I find it curious that of the thousands of email inquiries that Seiko receives every year that THIS guy gets the secret recipe that everyone is asking for..........


It's the "secret recipe" that's important, not who got it.


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## Jcp311 (Mar 20, 2013)

jalcon said:


> I have a polo ralph lauren shirt on right now. It says made in Malaysia. It's not like I says made in Italy on the front of the tag, and if I turn it over it then says Made in Malaysia, lmao.
> 
> Lets face it, where a watch is made I huge facet of how a watch is perceived. Putting "made in japan" on the case and on the dial when in fact it has was not "made in japan" only further proves point. It's a blantant lie. Do you think they would ever put "made in china" on a dial? Hell no, it would just be left blank
> 
> Its deceptive, plan and simple. Uhh..clothes are not that way. Some cars may be that way such as American cars having foreign parts ect but at LEAST they are put together in the states.


If you think seiko using "made in japan" is deceptive, remember they are complying with Japanese law. As far as your concern, I don't think most consumers or seiko care. Country of origin can command a premium, but this is much less a factor today than it was in the past.

Also...if you think all watches with "swiss made" on the dial are in fact from Switzerland from case to strap, you have another thing coming.

Welcome to the global economy.


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

I'm not the biggest Seiko fanboy here and find it a little disconcerting that some people are getting bent out of shape over this email.

The reason why I suspect it's true is that it's essentially confirming a lot of what we already knew or assumed from the the economic climate.

It's interesting to see a better breakdown of what's coming from where, though, and I always thought the 8L35 being machine assembled was common knowledge -- Randall Benson predicted (maybe even confirmed) this years ago hence the spotty oil jobs and obvious non-relgated state after giving a step-by-step tutorial of him servicing the movement.

I think it's rather interesting and I applaud Seiko for their logistical efforts. Imagine what that SBBN015 might cost if every part was made in Japan? It's all technically Seiko still but made under various roofs and under contract. What would be interesting to me is a concise breakdown of parts from models in the $2000+ category. For example, is HAYASHI SEIKI SEIZO Co., Seiko owned? I knew they made a lot (if not all) of their upper-end cases.

I think people are upset because their idea of Seiko being that some blood line samurai is woken-up from their sleep to make their special watch is false. Listen, it's all marketing just like their GS Zaratsu polish... It's just polished steel, people!... You keep going against the grain of the previous higher grit until there's no more lines! Trust me I used to fabricate and mirror polish a lot of steel. Did you think an actual Togi worked at Shizukuishi Watch Studio polishing with his ancient water stones, too?


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## micreyes11 (Aug 22, 2012)

jalcon said:


> One thing is for sure. This thread will hurt Seikos sales, period.


Naw, not even close... Simple mathematics...


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## daveya (Nov 21, 2009)

Hurt sales? Even WUS is just a smidgeon in the global watch market. It's rather grandiose to believe this website can effect sales of such a large company.


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## Jcp311 (Mar 20, 2013)

sierra11b said:


> I'm not the biggest Seiko fanboy here and find it a little disconcerting that some people are getting bent out of shape over this email.
> 
> The reason why I suspect it's true is that it's essentially confirming a lot of what we already knew or assumed from the the economic climate.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree...this information is nothing new, or really surprising for that matter. I think the exchange itself is the most intriguing.

Could you provide a link to the 8L35 servicing? It's a tad disconcerting that the oil jobs are "spotty." I plan on buying a MM300 sooner than later so I'm more than curious.


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

daveya said:


> Well yes you would, point being that's because you now know you have to, prior to this thread everyone thought made in Japan was a little less haphazard on Seikos and you didn't need to spend quite so much to enjoy a genuine 'made in Japan'


I don't think I ever thought that the Made in Japan marking indicated it was wholly made in Japan. As far as I'm concerned, it still is a genuine 'made in japan' marking since it's following Japanese/international laws (otherwise, I doubt they'd be on the market). It didn't take this thread for me to realize that if I wanted a watch mostly made in Japan, I'd have to go GS, Credor, Ananta, Brightz, etc.


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

balzebub said:


> The only surprise is that the list claims that the 8L35 is robot and machine assembled..
> 
> Sent via carrier pigeons





Jcp311 said:


> Absolutely agree...this information is nothing new, or really surprising for that matter. I think the exchange itself is the most intriguing.
> 
> Could you provide a link to the 8L35 servicing? It's a tad disconcerting that the oil jobs are "spotty." I plan on buying a MM300 sooner than later so I'm more than curious.


I can't find it now but maybe someone can help? Sorry...

As I recall reading a few years ago he stated the movement was liberally oiled and in some areas nowhere near necessary given the amounts. Based on this he assumed it was put together by robots and now we're seeing it on a list.

If I search Dr. Seiko 8L35 I find the original thread of him starting the breakdown and explaining the gaskets and how the crown is 'anemic'. It's the follow-up thread to this very watch I'm looking for where he discovers this but cannot seem to find.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

fjblair said:


> I find it curious that of the thousands of email inquiries that Seiko receives every year that THIS guy gets the secret recipe that everyone is asking for..........


I didn't just get the recipe. Actually, I used a zip line to travel from the Shinjuku Mitsui building to the offices. My laser glass cutter then performed superbly as I used my custom written program to open up a path ahead. His computer was encrypted, but there is a trick with topological manifolds used on quantum encryption that just makes the NSA drop a nut. It was pretty easy to find what I needed and then it was a quick B.A.S.E. jump to ground and WUS acclamation.

All that to know that my friend's SKX007 J was made in Malaysia. I am nothing if not thorough.

(I am sorry, but you just fell into that)


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## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

OP, thanks for posting this info.

It is well known that Seiko produce a lot of watches and movements here in Malaysia. Previously a lot of these were assembled or made in Singapore, before relocating most of these operations to Malaysia, mainly for economic reasons, as a lot of other industries did, some years back.

This post however, gives a bit more info, and perhaps sheds a bit more light on exactly how wide these operations are, and how far up the model line, these operations extend . Most people were definitely aware of the lower end movements, 7S26 and the like, and watches produced in Malaysia, but for sure not the higher end movements, like 8L35, and watch models produced here.

I may be wrong, but I tend to believe that this info is the real deal, and that this "priveleged info" was given out, as mentioned somewhere in another post above, in the mistaken belief that it was authorised. 

There is no other reason for another e-mail following so soon after, apologising for sending the "wrong" or out-dated info, and yet not providing any additional or newer updates on this. 

This new revelation will no doubt change some people's perception of various models ! 

However, rest assured, a Seiko will always be a Seiko.

Regards,


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## daveya (Nov 21, 2009)

They have nothing to hide, it's great that their employees aren't afraid to be transparent and perhaps the Made In Japan thing is only relevant to a tiny percentage of buyers most of whom probably frequent forums.

Plus brand loyalty is far more complex than just the manufacturing processes and marketing mix.


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## XOR (Apr 19, 2011)

jayhall0315 said:


> SBDX001 (MarineMaster 300m) - Raw Parts mainly from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, RA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan (bet this will surprise many as the 8L35 in this watch is robot assembled)


I just visited the Shizuku-ishi watch studio recently and went on a nice tour (no photos allowed).

The guides told me the Marinemaster 300 was not made there. They made only Grand Seiko and Credor at that facility. However they were producing hairsprings, etc. on premises for the Grand Seiko movements. These movements were being hand assembled on premises.

Spring Drives are made in Nagano and not at Shizuku-ishi near Morioka. No tour was available at that facility.

The Shizuku-ishi studio also had a completely automated quartz movement assembly line turning out something like 10 Million movements a month if what they told me was correct. It operates 24/7 making quartz movements. They were also making cases, etc. in fully automated injection molding machines. The entire operation was fascinating, but it is obvious that the facility could never produce the quantity of watches Seiko sells each year by itself.

I doubt for the price and supply of 8L35 movements they are hand assembling them at Morioka based on what I saw. So what you write above is totally believable.

Also, I own a Marinemaster 300 and a Spring Drive Tuna (SBDB009). The SD Tuna is better assembled and finished than the MM300. So again the hand assembly of the Spring Drive Tuna is also believable vs. the MM300.

In all fairness though, most high end watches sold in any kind of quantity (Rolex, Omega, etc.) are going to have a serious amount of automated production involved to keep up with delivery quotas and price points.


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## Byfrost (Dec 23, 2008)

fjblair said:


> I find it curious that of the thousands of email inquiries that Seiko receives every year that THIS guy gets the secret recipe that everyone is asking for..........





jayhall0315 said:


> I didn't just get the recipe. Actually, I used a zip line to travel from the Shinjuku Mitsui building to the offices. My laser glass cutter then performed superbly as I used my custom written program to open up a path ahead. His computer was encrypted, but there is a trick with topological manifolds used on quantum encryption that just makes the NSA drop a nut. It was pretty easy to find what I needed and then it was a quick B.A.S.E. jump to ground and WUS acclamation.
> 
> All that to know that my friend's SKX007 J was made in Malaysia. I am nothing if not thorough.
> 
> (I am sorry, but you just fell into that)





jayhall0315 said:


> It would be possible but I believe this Seiko exec completely released this by accident and I have the same concerns some of you do that he might suffer if further details are released. I understand some may think it is fake or a reverse plant or some trick, etc... but that is why I labeled it "...Juicy Mistake?". I have no special vested interest in Seiko or Swiss brands, other than I own two inexpensive Seikos and will soon purchase my first higher end diver (a Darth Tuna).
> 
> Yes, true. Other side of the coin. I put this information out there, 'as is' and if you believe it is genuine or fake, that is up to you. I just found it interesting and thought I would post it for discussion. I have no way of verifying if this email attachment is completely valid. Because of the manner in which it was sent, I believe it is probably genuine but that is my own personal opinion.


Which is why I've mentioned, a simple screenshot of the email would have solved this problem. Right now we only choose to believe (or not) whether this information is actually even true or accurate to begin with.

I can always create a thread stating I've received an email from a reliable source that all SKX007J are hand assembled by master watchmakers working with Grand Seiko and Credor line, too.


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## GlennO (Jan 3, 2010)

Great info. Nothing that really surprised me, but good to have the k/j thing clarified.



balzebub said:


> The only surprise is that the list claims that the 8L35 is robot and machine assembled..


Personally I think it's great that C-3PO has finally found some meaningful employment.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Roy87 said:


> I can always create a thread stating I've received an email from a reliable source that all SKX007J are hand assembled by master watchmakers working with Grand Seiko and Credor line, too.


You can just as easily fake an e-mail. So what exactly would the screenshot prove?


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

jalcon said:


> Interesting. Lol @ stamped "made in japan" on one side of the case and "made in china" on the other. Shady as hell, common or not. I was going to drop $500 on a sumo very soon. Not anymore. Thanks for the info.


Oh come on now, please. First, why drop more on a Sumo than you have to? It was been pointed out to you in your Sumo thread that you can get one from Seija or Chino for $15 - $52 less, delivered.

Second, what's shady about it? Seiko is merely labeling their products as prescribed by the import requirements of the countries they plan to sell these watches in. Blame those countries that made the laws, not the company that makes the product.

Third, watches are not cloths or cars. Countries may have different import labeling requirements by product category. Most do. Most structure import requirements to protect a national business, if they have one. Like Switzerland and the EU on watches, and Italy in wine. And Japan with watches.

And finally, and most important, if you like the Sumo, so much so that you would be willing to over pay for one ($500), then how can this information, which by the way is far from new, even in this forum (just sacrilegious to mention so point-blank), alter that? It's the same watch today as yesterday. You're not getting a $1,000 watch for $480, and somehow this has changed now that you know is it made in Malaysia. You buying a $480 watch that you (for some unfathomable reason; it's one of the fugliest divers) like the looks of. Same value equation today as yesterday: the watch is still worth $480. It does the same thing, is made then same way, looks the same, etc. It has been long known that they were not actually made in Japan.

Or go spend $1,000 or $2,000 on a German or Swiss made diver. But you know that that "Swiss Made" watch was also assembled from parts of which at least some are made in Asia? Maybe even the movement itself? Maybe the same movement in a Sumo, just a different model number?

If you want a watch hand assembled in Japan, or Switzerland, be prepared to pay 10 times more than your Sumo ... for starters. And know that it is still not 100% "in-house".

But if you like that ugly diver, then don't hesitate. Buy the orange one: it's even uglier .... and (appropriately) cheaper.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

You mean that my MM300 was made on some hot nasty insect-infested Malyasian island by a buncha half-a$$ed robots that didn't give a crap and it's still better that most hand made superlative Swiss watches?


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## Kauf2947 (Mar 30, 2013)

.....due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals. 

This very loose interpretation of labor laws in Japan is deceiving to the consumer. This practice is most likely used when assembling cars and then stamped made in "Germany".


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Roy87 said:


> Which is why I've mentioned, a simple screenshot of the email would have solved this problem. Right now we only choose to believe (or not) whether this information is actually even true or accurate to begin with.
> 
> I can always create a thread stating I've received an email from a reliable source that all SKX007J are hand assembled by master watchmakers working with Grand Seiko and Credor line, too.


It certainly is curious. But this is nothing that has not been known to various extents. It's just presented in more detail. But we all knew that even the Grand Seiko is not 100% in-house (even Seiko makes that disclaimer), that all lower level Seikos were made outside Japan (including the SKX007 series); most suspected, or knew, that most JDM's like SARB's and SARX's etc were at best assembled in Japan from parts made outside Japan.

Certainly not info Seiko would want public. But it's in a way public knowledge because any investigative reporter or journalist could verify all of this without breaking any laws.

The one certain thing about secrets that all of us know is that, eventually, someone lets the cat out of the bag, either by accident or deliberately.


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

China Schmina.

What I wanna know is, WHERE were the ROBOTS built?
And WHO designed them? What company?
Whose hands touched them during their assembly?

I wanna know the nationalities and ethnicities of the people involved. Dammit!


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## Byfrost (Dec 23, 2008)

Okapi001 said:


> You can just as easily fake an e-mail. So what exactly would the screenshot prove?


It does not have to prove anything. At least we know that it came from (an email source) rather than a (copy & paste from somewhere source) or a merely someone who is bored and decided to craft a lovely story in this thread.

To prove something will be hard because even "if" Seiko would to release a press release media statement regarding this, nothing is "proven" until one visits the place of manufacture of the (highly debated SKX007K or SKX007J) factory and takes plenty of highly detailed photos and videos the entire trip showing "Hey I am currently in (insert countries other than Japan) and this is the Seiko manufacturing plant where they produce "Made In Japan" SKX007J and other "J" variants of Seiko models".

Now, before things get philosophical, let's move on shall we?  Just my two cents.


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

Chronopolis said:


> China Schmina.
> 
> What I wanna know is, WHERE were the ROBOTS built?
> And WHO designed them? What company?
> ...


I know you were kidding, but I wouldn't be surprised if all their machinery was Seiko machinery as well. They make phenomenal machinery and are pretty well known in some industries like sewing machines. If you ever need a sewing machine (in some odd alternate universe), just remember that Seiko makes some of the best and be prepared to pay for it.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Kauf2947 said:


> .....due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals.
> 
> This very loose interpretation of labor laws in Japan is deceiving to the consumer. This practice is most likely used when assembling cars and then stamped made in "Germany".


EDIT: Whoops, I see you were quoting the OP. I wonder how the laws can be interpreted it that way if the JCWA doesn't seem to think it can.

These appear to be the rules for origin for Japan:

http://www.asianlii.org/apec/other/agrmt/arooj213/

And according to the Japanese Clock & Watch Association (email someone got a while back):



> The Japanese law defines country of origin as the country where substantive change was performed. For watches, the substantive changes are defined as movement assembly.
> 
> The percentage of local material is not specified. This means the country of origin is the country where the movement was assembled. Therefore a watch with a movement assembled in Japan can be 'Made in Japan' in the viewpoint of the law.
> 
> However, to avoid misleading consumers, member companies of the JCWA use the phrase 'Made in Japan' only when movement assembly and complete watch assembly were performed in Japan.


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## Bobzep (Oct 30, 2010)

If this is true, Seiko has done a bit of "fudging," to put it mildly. I have probably bought my last premium item from them. I feel misled, but then every company seems to do it. Still disappointing, though.


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## Bobzep (Oct 30, 2010)

Hmmm.
I wonder if the Credor is 100 percent in-house. Really?


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

I have a Seiko (Kinetic Perpetual) with "Movement Japan" on the caseback, and a Casio (Lineage) with a "Movement Japan, Cased in China" on the caseback. I assume in both cases the movement is actually manufactured in Japan, not just supervised by a Japanese engineer in some foreign country, and than assembled (cased) without such supervision.

And than I have a Seiko (Alpinist) and Casio (Oceanus) with "Made in Japan" on the caseback.


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

adi4 said:


> I know you were kidding, but I wouldn't be surprised if all their machinery was Seiko machinery as well. They make phenomenal machinery and are pretty well known in some industries like sewing machines. If you ever need a sewing machine (in some odd alternate universe), just remember that Seiko makes some of the best and be prepared to pay for it.


I was kidding of course, but I was also making fun of people who either cannot see their own racism, or hide it under / inside "geographism."

Mostly likely the former, by way of the latter.
Ideology works like that.


----------



## Outlawyer (Feb 21, 2009)

It's good that one doesn't have to live in a country to own the products it produces. Wouldn't want to live in Japan, but I would if it was my only access to Seiko, Honda, Yamaha, and Canon. (Although my beloved Accord is made in Ohio, I could suffer with an Acura NSX).


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## Ugly Dude (Jul 7, 2013)

Outlawyer said:


> It's good that one doesn't have to live in a country to own the products it produces. Wouldn't want to live in Japan, but I would if it was my only access to Seiko, Honda, Yamaha, and Canon. (Although my beloved Accord is made in Ohio, I could suffer with an Acura NSX).


Well, technically if you're over there, a Honda NSX.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Okapi001 said:


> I have a Seiko (Kinetic Perpetual) with "Movement Japan" on the caseback, and a Casio (Lineage) with a "Movement Japan, Cased in China" on the caseback. I assume in both cases the movement is actually manufactured in Japan, not just supervised by a Japanese engineer in some foreign country, and than assembled (cased) without such supervision.
> 
> And than I have a Seiko (Alpinist) and Casio (Oceanus) with "Made in Japan" on the caseback.


You mean "assumed", not "assume".


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Citizen V said:


> EDIT: Whoops, I see you were quoting the OP. I wonder how the laws can be interpreted it that way if the JCWA doesn't seem to think it can.
> 
> These appear to be the rules for origin for Japan:
> 
> ...


You can look up the Japanese import requirements for watches. The actual regulations that is, on the official government web site. Lot's of verbiage and legalize, but the general gist of it is that the factory has to be 100% owned and managed by a Japanese company. In other words, written so that Seiko, Casio, etc can make their watches off shore, but import them in to Japan stamped "made in Japan".


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

nepatriot said:


> ... the general gist of it is that the factory has to be 100% owned and managed by a Japanese company. In other words, written so that Seiko, Casio, etc can make their watches off shore, but import them in to Japan stamped "made in Japan".


Which is no more "egregious" than what the Swiss do.
And yet, some people here are waxing indignant. (Not you.)

As long as the company guarantees the level of quality one expects, WTF difference does any of this make?


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## ChiefWahoo (Jul 4, 2011)

Outlawyer said:


> It's good that one doesn't have to live in a country to own the products it produces. Wouldn't want to live in Japan, but I would if it was my only access to Seiko, Honda, Yamaha, and Canon. (Although my beloved Accord is made in Ohio, I could suffer with an Acura NSX).


Just have to wait a little longer. Won't the new one be made here as well?


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

I have to say, this mistaken email attachment didn't really surprise me much, except perhaps for the MarineMaster 300m, which I really like the styling of despite the mediocre movement. (I know some really get pumped over the 8L35 but it really is not that accurate or exceptional) I guess for many, learning that you watch was made by a robot is a letdown but for me, it is a positive. During grad school, I worked at an internship for Boeing on Navier Stokes and carbon fiber wing manufacture. At first, no robots existed to manufacture the new types of wings we designed and everything had to be hand laid in special jigs. As time went by, we became more proficient but when robots entered the picture, not only did scale of production ramp up drastically but lack of errors did as well. Robots performed about 22,300 times more accurately than humans for that particular application.

If my $330 Seiko SBCM023 was put together by robots in Malaysia, all the better for me.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

adi4 said:


> I know you were kidding, but I wouldn't be surprised if all their machinery was Seiko machinery as well. They make phenomenal machinery and are pretty well known in some industries like sewing machines. If you ever need a sewing machine (in some odd alternate universe), just remember that Seiko makes some of the best and be prepared to pay for it.


This is correct. Seiko, along with two other robotics firms they hired from the Tokyo area, made their own robot assemblers.

What will blow your mind even more is to ask yourself what type of robots are used by some Swiss firms like Rolex to assemble their lower end models? I will give you a clue, they are not of Swiss or German origin.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

nepatriot said:


> You can look up the Japanese import requirements for watches. The actual regulations that is, on the official government web site. Lot's of verbiage and legalize, but the general gist of it is that the factory has to be 100% owned and managed by a Japanese company. In other words, written so that Seiko, Casio, etc can make their watches off shore, but import them in to Japan stamped "made in Japan".


Do you have a link to them? I went through a couple government sites (customs, JETRO, METI and MOFA) and wasn't able to find anything. I just skimmed through though.


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

jalcon said:


> One thing is for sure. This thread will hurt Seikos sales, period.


it won't hurt Them one bit!

all of the well know brands today makes part or the hole watch where man hour are cheap,
this Seiko employee was just honest, I respekt Seiko for not give us a lot af markedting ********.


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

Bobzep said:


> Hmmm.
> I wonder if the Credor is 100 percent in-house. Really?


All are "in-house" whatever that term means to you. I would venture to guess most of the mechanical range, especially above $2-3k is made in Japan. The quartzes probably get shipped in but assembled in Japan based purely on price points and my speculation. 

-adi4


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## XOR (Apr 19, 2011)

When I went to Shizuku-ishi studios in Morioka a few weeks back, all the Quartz movement assembly robots were Seiko designed and made from what they told me. They may have had other companies helping them in the manufacture, but they were Seiko robots.

They also said they produced their own tooling in other ways as well.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

jayhall0315 said:


> I have to say, this mistaken email attachment didn't really surprise me much, except perhaps for the MarineMaster 300m, which I really like the styling of despite the mediocre movement. (I know some really get pumped over the 8L35 but it really is not that accurate or exceptional) I guess for many, learning that you watch was made by a robot is a letdown but for me, it is a positive. During grad school, I worked at an internship for Boeing on Navier Stokes and carbon fiber wing manufacture. At first, no robots existed to manufacture the new types of wings we designed and everything had to be hand laid in special jigs. As time went by, we became more proficient but when robots entered the picture, not only did scale of production ramp up drastically but lack of errors did as well. Robots performed about 22,300 times more accurately than humans for that particular application.
> 
> If my $330 Seiko SBCM023 was put together by robots in Malaysia, all the better for me.


Agreed

Robots are precise, consistent, don't get tired, don't need breaks, don't take sick days, don't come in drunk or under the weather and work 24/7. I have no problem knowing robots build Seiko watches. In the long run a watch built by a robot is probably better than a watch built by a human being.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

rosborn said:


> Agreed
> 
> Robots are precise, consistent, don't get tired, don't need breaks, don't take sick days, don't come in drunk or under the weather and work 24/7. I have no problem knowing robots build Seiko watches. In the long run a watch built by a robot is probably better than a watch built by a human being.


Except that they can't put a damn chapter ring in correctly.

BTW, the 8L35 is both exceptional and accurate. Maybe the robot that built yours dropped it when he was busy eyeballin' this fine female robot that rolled by.


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

rosborn said:


> In the long run a watch built by a robot is probably better than a watch built by a human being.


Dayum straight.
Didn't people learn anything from watching _Terminator Salvation_? Sheesh.


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## Munchie (Dec 20, 2013)

cold_beer839 said:


> *Except that they can't put a damn chapter ring in correctly.*
> 
> Just wanted to +1 this...:-d


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

cold_beer839 said:


> Except that they can't put a damn chapter ring in correctly.
> 
> BTW, the 8L35 is both exceptional and accurate. Maybe the robot that built yours dropped it when he was busy eyeballin' this fine female robot that rolled by.


Robots are great in that they will perform the same task(s), over and over again, 24\7, without complaint, break, sleep, etc. But they will perform the task(s) exactly as they are programmed to do, without question. Even when there is an obvious error going on, something that even a minimum wage assembly line worker could spot instantly ... like a misaligned chapter ring.

Now, the minimum wage assembly line worker may not actually care if the chapter ring is misaligned. They might not even understand that there's a reason for it to be lined up properly in the first place ... not everyone that makes a product actually uses one. And if some one forgot to tell a new worker to make sure a chapter ring is aligned ... there's another one of those pesky man-caused errors.

So I guess robots are great ... after all they don't have a hang over from the night before, get distracted by some personal excitement going on in their lives, etc ... as long as the humans that programs their actions does't have a hangover, or broke up with their girlfriend the night before, are distracted by an attractive co-worker, have fat fingers when typing in programs ....


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

nepatriot said:


> Robots are great in that they will perform the same task(s), over and over again, 24\7, without complaint, break, sleep, etc. But they will perform the task(s) exactly as they are programmed to do, without question. Even when there is an obvious error going on, something that even a minimum wage assembly line worker could spot instantly ... like a misaligned chapter ring.


That's not true. You can add optical recognition control to the assembly line and the robot will recognize any misalignement and either correct the error itself or separate the faulty watch for manual repair.


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## teatimecrumpet (Mar 14, 2013)

Whats the beef here? I couldn't go through all 11 pages while i take a deuce at work.

I'll put in a summary:
Seiko = awesome
Alignment still stinks
Swiss not necessarily better than seiko
Robots > humans
But human qc better
Seiko not doing anything different than any other watchmaker
J as good as K

Now i wipe


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## domoon (Apr 13, 2014)

Wooot, 11 pages and surprisingly no meme appeared (or that i aware of) 
Here's one:









Tlapatlaked


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Excellent summary! |>

But you DO realize, this summary, in its crystal clarity, also will have the effect of exposing with brutality the fact that some of the posters' reaction fall into the category of something like "unmanly hysteria" since it was over nothing. :-d



teatimecrumpet said:


> Whats the beef here? I couldn't go through all 11 pages while i take a deuce at work.
> 
> I'll put in a summary:
> Seiko = awesome
> ...


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## Jcp311 (Mar 20, 2013)

I might be the only one here who's had this experience, but J always beats K under the loupe. I've sent back numerous k versions to amazon for fit and finish issues. This has yet to be the case with the J models I have.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

In fact the real issues here is the general question of credibility. How much can we trust random information, published on the net? We have an anonymous forum member forwarding an info by some alleged and undisclosed employee of the Seiko. Some of the info is consistent with what we already know or suspect, some not so much.


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## ChrisGalbraith76 (Mar 18, 2010)

This is by far one of the most interesting threads in WUS history.

I think this thread is lacking a bit of hard evidence to the issues being discussed here.

I remember a post from Purist Pro a few years ago about a visit to Morioka's studio that I'd like to link in here. It is a big post comprised of a few parts, so please make sure to read every installment...you guys will find some very 'interesting' pics...

http://seiko.watchprosite.com/t-/fi...ti-687753/forumlist.lookwho.photo_bLoB_s-100/

In this first installment, here's a very juicy tidbit and I quote it:



> Also located in Morioka is the Shizukuishi Watch Studio. Established in 2004, the Shizukuishi Watch Studio is best known for its high-end mechanical Seiko watches, including Grand Seiko, Credor _*and Prospex*_.


.... here's an excerpt that brings a nice 'pic': http://seiko.watchprosite.com/show-...687753/t-seiko-part-v-inspection-and-testing/









Now, if MMs are not made or assembled there, someone please enlighten me what the heck are they doing on that tray?

Just for the sake of clarification, it doesn't matter to me if my so called JDM Seikos are 'made' in Japan, China, Malaysia, Maars or Jupiter...to me it's all about the quality and the looks.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

Great article Chris. Thanks! 

Not sure I would want to be one of the "master" watchmakers as there is a large chart comparing all the employees to each other. It suddenly brought back a painful memory from the movie '12 Years a Slave' where some slaves were whipped each day if their daily cotton quota was not high enough. Can't imagine the amount of law suits that would be filed if such a system were implemented at many firms in my state of California.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

Jcp, I have read similar comments from others online. I suppose that is the reason why buyers are paying roughly $30 to $40 more for the J version?


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

XOR said:


> The guides told me the Marinemaster 300 was not made there. They made only Grand Seiko and Credor at that facility.


Maybe they don't make it there, but according to the picture above from SJX's tour of the facilities, looks like there is final oversight done at Morioka... But you are probably technically right though that it is not fully made there, and technically right is the best kind of right.


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## ChrisGalbraith76 (Mar 18, 2010)

Here in this link there's a video depicting seiko's cal. 8L38, a a cousin of the 8L35, on a report about Morioka's studio:

Morioka Seiko Instruments Inc. - Luxury Watch Manufacturer






This report implies the 8L38 is produced in Morioka's facility, so would it be too far fetched to believe the 8L35 is also produced there?


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## Fastdriver (Mar 15, 2014)

ChrisGalbraith76 said:


> This is by far one of the most interesting threads in WUS history.
> 
> I think this thread is lacking a bit of hard evidence to the issues being discussed here.
> 
> ...


 I am always wondered how people jumped into conclusion from one piece of evidence, (This time an e-mail), Without having more substantial support material


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## ChrisGalbraith76 (Mar 18, 2010)

Chronopolis said:


> Dayum straight.
> Didn't people learn anything from watching _Terminator Salvation_? Sheesh.


Exactly! Everyone knows that the human race nemesis is Skynet....and guess who built Skynet? You guessed right if you thought S.I.I.! And it was built and assembled at the Morioka facility, right in middle of all that beautiful wood.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

Outlawyer said:


> "Almost all Sumo versions" aren't there only three?


Apologies Outlawyer, did not see this until now. I see information on what appears to be four Sumo versions, SBDC001, 003, 005 and 019.


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

ChrisGalbraith76 said:


> .... here's an excerpt that brings a nice 'pic': http://seiko.watchprosite.com/show-...687753/t-seiko-part-v-inspection-and-testing/
> 
> View attachment 1634103
> 
> ...


For final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan as suggested in the OP. The robots have set them all at ~10:39 and they're all waiting to be put in their pretty new Prospex boxes after passing final QC by MIJ humans. :-d

But you're right in the end of your post... I'd challenge anyone to spot the MIM vs supposed MIJ (as seen in this thread) sbdx001.

Look, without hard evidence it's all just heresay but it's all interesting to me nonetheless. |>


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

Chris, I can't say for sure but from the evidence I have seen (including this attachment), I am inclined to believe that the MM 300m is made by robots outside of Japan. There is the Dr Seiko thread another poster mentioned where he describes the over oiling, and there are the numerous reports of mis-aligned chapter rings, and now this executive's leak. The evidence (at least for me) just does not point to master craftsman at Shizukuishi ever touching them with human hands. I have a feeling (no evidence, just a pure guess) that they are shipped there in an almost fully assembled condition from Malaysia.


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## ChrisGalbraith76 (Mar 18, 2010)

I don't know guys....it doesn't look reasonable to me, from an economical POV, if the MM are built and assembled in Malaysia only to be sent to Shinjuku-Ish in Japan for final inspection, QC, etc, in order to get the right to be labelled 'Made in Japan'.

If the Malaysian plant is run and controlled by a 100% japanese company, under supervision of japanese staff, then by conclusion there's no need to have the watches sent back to Japan for final inspection and testing (look, according to the links I provided, at least one testing - the water resistant/ pressure testing - is conducted at the Morioka facility) to be legally labelled as 'made in Japan'.

I mean, the Malaysian facility and its robots is capable of build and assemble the watch in the first place, but not competent enough to conduct proper testing and final QC inspection? Of course they are, and they could have the rights to legally label the MMs 300 as a 'made in Japan' product since the law requirements for such labelling are met at that facility. They don't need Morioka's studios for that at all, am I right?

So far, we have in this thread one evidence that MMs are directly connected to the Morioka's studios (Purist Pro article and pic of a tray full of MMs awaiting testing/inspection there), against an email supposedly sent by a Seiko employee to a random customer, and such email supposedly contained a PDF attachment with a logistics chart of some of the most popular watches in that brand. It is no doubt an intriguing issue, that's for sure.


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

...I've been lurking here for the better part of a decade... [just to quiet the users that will scream "first post... first post...!]

---
The [Japanese] Emperor...Has NO clothes.
---

Watching [no pun] the Seiko fan-boys fall all over themselves trying to spin this data is, well, hilarious, and, very telling.

Reminds me much of when TAG was OUTED for lying about their Seiko movements in their "Swiss Made" watches.

or...
When the Panerai "Brooklyn Bridge" model was found to have a cheap MIC movement inside.

We certainly DO NOT get what we pay for...We HAVE been lied to, fooled and had.

EDIT: {as an aside} I removed the caseback off an Accutron Eagle Pilot GMT (65B005) with the 2893.a2, the caseback is stamped in ink or laser/acid etched on the inside...?

"Hong Kong."

The 65B005 is labelled "Swiss Made" all over it , and retails for about 1 200 USD.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

ugh, you saved up for 10 years to make that post?



dgbaker said:


> ...I've been lurking here for the better part of a decade... [just to quiet the users that will scream "first post... first post...!]
> 
> ---
> The [Japanese] Emperor...Has NO clothes.
> ...


----------



## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

ChrisGalbraith76 said:


> I don't know guys....it doesn't look reasonable to me, from an economical POV, if the MM are built and assembled in Malaysia only to be sent to Shinjuku-Ish in Japan for final inspection, QC, etc, in order to get the right to be labelled 'Made in Japan'.
> 
> If the Malaysian plant is run and controlled by a 100% japanese company, under supervision of japanese staff, then by conclusion there's no need to have the watches sent back to Japan for final inspection and testing (look, according to the links I provided, at least one testing - the water resistant/ pressure testing - is conducted at the Morioka facility) to be legally labelled as 'made in Japan'.
> 
> ...


You bring up a good point. For all we know it could be a matter of pride for it to come back or something as simple as balancing the labor load for them to come back. The cost to ship 100 MM300s back has to be very minimal passed on to the consumer. The bottom line is unless we have solid proof either way we will never know!


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

"ugh, you saved up for 10 years to make that post?"
I prove, and, rest my case.
thanks for proving me correct.


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## ChrisGalbraith76 (Mar 18, 2010)

sierra11b said:


> You bring up a good point. For all we know it could be a matter of pride for it to come back or something as simple as balancing the labor load for them to come back. The cost to ship 100 MM300s back has to be very minimal passed on to the consumer. The bottom line is unless we have solid proof either way we will never know!


Well, I stick with the only evidence shown here, thus far: the pic of the tray full of MMs 300 being tested at Morioka's.
All the rest discussed here is no evidence, but plain and simple gossip, until evidence for such gossip gets provided and then it's no longer gossip.

And before someone calls me a Seiko fanboy, I'm not. Quite the opposite these days....I'm getting pissed and pissed with Seiko's stance about how their international market gets treated, and specially with my local Seiko service center and their horrible service and 100% lack of parts to be provided for servicing, almost to the point of beginning to entertain the idea of a big sell out of my huge Seiko diver's collection.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

If I were going to save up my first post in 10 years of lurking, I would put some shot of a nude beauty in it with fabulous knockers wearing a Seiko. Go big or go home 

(kidding)

Almost a year back when I got interested in possibly purchasing a high end diver, several forum members warned me that they make poor investments. Several guys in the Rolex forum even said it was a bad idea, and the more I researched, the more I found they were correct. It turns out, I invested most of my accidental inherited gift in various stock and mutual funds and decided to buy a much cheaper diver, which I believe is going to be the Seiko Darth Tuna (SBBN013).


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

I just bought a Marathon, labeled "Swiss Made". Bought it from one of their authorized US distributors. On the distributor's web site, the description of the GSAR includes a specific ETA movement. Interestingly, on Marathon's web site, they make no such claim. Simply stating "Automatic movement". Talk about CYA with an overly generic statement!

I emailed Marathon to confirm that their authorized US distributor is either accurate, or misrepresenting. Crickets.

So I suspect many if not most watch makers are playing games on these kinds of things. Now, as far as Seiko, assuming the OP is correct (and we all know that at least some of this is correct), Seiko is not misrepresenting. They are merely following the import regulations per the various countries these watches are intended to be imported in to and sold in. Marathon is not misrepresenting either: their web site carefully omits any reference to a specific movement.

The Marathon is running about 3 seconds fast after 10 days of daily use. Where ever the works came from, I can't complain about how it is (so far) doing what it's supposed to do.



dgbaker said:


> ...I've been lurking here for the better part of a decade... [just to quiet the users that will scream "first post... first post...!]
> 
> ---
> The [Japanese] Emperor...Has NO clothes.
> ...


----------



## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

I don't mind they build my watch with help from a robot,
as long as they don't Tell me any ******** that says anything Else.

Rolex makes arround 1 million watches every year,
and they still tell the old story about hand made.

I Think that if Seiko have robots that Can make watches,
then there is a very good chance that Rolex have some to, they just don't speak up about it.

let's not forget that robot make less mistakes then human in a produktion,
and you get they same High standard in mass produktion, what is there not to like in that.?


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

jayhall0315 said:


> ".....due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals. [...]


I am still curious about this claim. Someone already said it can be found on the web but I haven't been able to find the relevant regulations. Anyone?


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## XOR (Apr 19, 2011)

deleted...


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

Uhhhh,......ok yeah,.....you're proven correct.

BTW, what are you proving yourself correct on?



dgbaker said:


> "ugh, you saved up for 10 years to make that post?"
> I prove, and, rest my case.
> thanks for proving me correct.


----------



## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

cold_beer839 said:


> Uhhhh,......ok yeah,.....you're proven correct.
> 
> BTW, what are you proving yourself correct on?


--------------------------
I have proven, that there are more than one user here, that do nothing but hi-jack threads with ad hominem.

It's why I've never posted, it's why my fellow Psychologist Walt Odets left.


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

dgbaker said:


> --------------------------
> I have proven, that there are more than one user here, that do nothing but hi-jack threads with ad hominem.
> 
> It's why I've never posted, it's why my fellow Psychologist Walt Odets left.


Hmm, not sure who attacked you where in this thread. Also, not sure how you and Walt Odets are related in any way besides you possibly being a psychologist. He did some excellent tear-downs and (somewhat controversial) reviews of some high end watches over at TZ. I just saw you make a statement that didn't really contribute much to the conversation we were having regarding where Seiko may or may not have different parts made and assembled.

There's only one Emperor of Japan, his name is not Seiko, and he most definitely has some very nice clothes...


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

Citizen V said:


> I am still curious about this claim. Someone already said it can be found on the web but I haven't been able to find the relevant regulations. Anyone?


--

APEC RULES OF ORIGIN - JAPAN

APEC RULES OF ORIGIN - JAPAN

********
"Seiko is perhaps best known for its wristwatches, all of which were at one time produced entirely in-house. This includes not only major items such as microgears, motors, hands, crystal oscillators, batteries, sensors, LCDs but also minor items such as the oils used in lubricating the watches and the luminous compounds used on the hands and the dials. Currently watch movements are made in Shizukuishi, Iwate (SII Morioka Seiko Instruments), Ninohe, Iwate (SII Ninohe Tokei Kogyo), Shiojiri, Nagano (Seiko Epson) and their subsidiaries in China, Malaysia and Singapore. The fully integrated in-house production system is still practised for luxury watches in Japan."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seiko


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## luth_ukail (Jun 23, 2014)

This certainly clears up all the confusions that WUS or i had. And its good. Even if its by a mistake, the info like it or not will be leaked sooner or later...

But the most interesting point that OP bring up is the ROLEX cost of production and the 40 Million watches of 'genuine' ones produce.. really an eye opener.


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

http://www.thewatchsite.com/21-japanese-watch-discussion-forum/22207-seiko-sumo-china-case.html

"The Japanese law defines country of origin as the country where substantive change was performed. For watches, the substantive changes are defined as movement assembly."

"The percentage of local material is not specified. This means the country of origin is the country where the movement was assembled. Therefore a watch with a movement assembled in Japan can be 'Made in Japan' in the viewpoint of the law." The JCWA ruling was - "However, to avoid misleading consumers, member companies of the JCWA use the phrase 'Made in Japan' only when movement assembly and complete watch assembly were performed in Japan."


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## Ace McLoud (Jun 28, 2013)

dgbaker said:


> --
> 
> APEC RULES OF ORIGIN - JAPAN
> 
> ...





dgbaker said:


> http://www.thewatchsite.com/21-japanese-watch-discussion-forum/22207-seiko-sumo-china-case.html


I also fail to see your point?


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

the rules of origin of "Made in Japan" are in the APEC summary.
you do know what APEC is?

the wiki article states that Seiko manufactures their watches OUTSIDE of Japan... EXCEPT for their 'in-house luxury' watches.

the link to the second article has PHOTOGRAPHIC evidence of "Made in Japan" Seiko watches that bear a MIC hallmark, at the SAME time.

What is not to understand?


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

dgbaker said:


> the rules of origin of "Made in Japan" are in the APEC summary.
> you do know what APEC is?
> 
> the wiki article states that Seiko manufactures their watches OUTSIDE of Japan... EXCEPT for their 'in-house luxury' watches.
> ...


I actually linked the same article to support my point earlier: the regulations state it, the movement, has to be assembled in Japan. I don't see anything in there that suggests a Japanese owned plant in China counts.

As for the Sumo, it abides by the rules. The case is clearly manufactured in China but that does not mean the movement and watch were not assembled in Japan.


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

Seeing as I apparently have to explain all of my words:

The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Emperor's New Clothes" (Danish: _Kejserens nye Klæder_) is a short tale by Hans Christian Andersen

One day, two swindlers claiming to be weavers entered the Emperor's city and proclaimed they were capable of making the finest, lightest, most magnificent cloth the world has ever seen. So extraordinary was this cloth, it was invisible to anyone who was incompetent or stupid.
------

We ARE being swindled...yet most refuse to accept this truth.

.


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## sebatron (Jul 17, 2014)

jalcon said:


> One thing is for sure. This thread will hurt Seikos sales, period.


No it won't. 
How many watches do Seiko sell in any year?
How many people are on WUS?
How many prospective Seiko buyers will view this thread?
How many of those prospective buyers will be surprised by the content of the first post?
How many of those will now change their mind away from buying a Seiko?

I would be surprised if volume changes more than a few dozen per year as a result of this information.


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

sebatron said:


> No it won't.
> How many watches do Seiko sell in any year?
> How many people are on WUS?
> How many prospective Seiko buyers will view this thread?
> ...


Sigh.. If you read everything I said, I stated "but not in the grand scheme of things." it isn't unrealistic to say that a few hundred or so less watches get sold this year bc of this thread. Considering sometimes companies are too cheap to pay shipping on some new links or something, ect... A few hundred watches IS something.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

dgbaker said:


> We ARE being swindled...yet most refuse to accept this truth.


Are you referring to me (and others)? My question actually didn't really relate to Seiko at all. I'm more curious about Japan and how they operate. I was also already aware of everything you posted; see my post here.

Perhaps the quote I initially used was not the best, since it could be interpreted as following the rules from the APEC link. The following quote may be needed to clear it up:



> SKX007 J = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, *Oversight from Japanese Technicians (which allows the J version to be labeled as Made in Japan)*


What regulations allow oversight from Japanese technicians in a Japanese owned plant by a Japanese company *outside *of Japan to call their products "Made in Japan"?


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

I do not know Citizen V, other than what I posted, but I will be interested if someone finds something. I know I am the one to begin the thread, but speaking only for myself, this will in no way dampen my interest in purchasing a higher end Seiko diver, even if it was made in Malaysia by robots. I may do a little break down if I get some time at lunch tomorrow, but in the reading I have done so far, if I try to assign some general ball park estimate to how much product do you actually get for some X price, two brands really stand out to me so far, Seiko and Sinn. Both offer some higher end divers in the $1500 to $3000 price range that really do deliver higher end features that cannot be found in any cheaper market segment. I will try to give a few details tomorrow if time presents.


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

sebatron said:


> No it won't.
> How many watches do Seiko sell in any year?
> How many people are on WUS?
> How many prospective Seiko buyers will view this thread?
> ...


---------
From 2010:

Watch Sales Down Again for Japan's Big Three | WatchTime - USA's No.1 Watch Magazine

Results for the fiscal year ended March 31 show that watch sales at Japan's Big Three watch firms slumped for the second consecutive year as the Great Recession continued to suppress demand for mid-priced watches. Nevertheless, the watch divisions at Citizen, Seiko and Casio remained profitable. For the companies as a whole, only the Citizen Group reported a profit for year; Seiko and Casio both reported losses.

In the watch divisions, the hardest hit was Seiko, maker of Seiko, Pulsar, Alba and licensed brand watches; watch sales fell 31 percent to 64.5 billion yen ($693 million) for the fiscal year. Two years ago, Seiko's watch sales totaled ¥117.2 billion. Since then, they have fallen a staggering 45%. Seiko now ranks third among the Big Three in terms of watch revenue.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Stensbjerg said:


> let's not forget that robot make less mistakes then human in a produktion,
> and you get they same High standard in mass produktion, what is there not to like in that.?


There's everything to like about that if you drop the one country only rule. Humans still need to adjust these movements. Why can't robots do that?

It's certainly coming.


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

Citizen V said:


> Are you referring to me (and others)?
> 
> ---------
> Others: Including myself.
> ...


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

dgbaker said:


> In the watch divisions, the hardest hit was Seiko, maker of Seiko, Pulsar, Alba and licensed brand watches; watch sales fell 31 percent to 64.5 billion yen ($693 million) for the fiscal year. Two years ago, Seiko's watch sales totaled ¥117.2 billion. Since then, they have fallen a staggering 45%. Seiko now ranks third among the Big Three in terms of watch revenue.


Staggering indeed. This is surprising. Citizen apparently has a big advantage with most of their line--and their advertising--centered on "eco drive." I think that sent Seiko floundering and playing catch-up.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

10 years of lurking then 15 posts in 6 hours. I'm no psychologist, but it seems someone is off their meds, or just trolling (e.g. the _ad hominem_ in post #122 of this thread).

Anyway, Seiko makes a great watch, regardless of which part of Asia the watch in question is made at. It's not like Seiko has to make a watch entirely in Japan for it to be worth a damn, just like most 'Swiss made' watches are made from parts and movements sourced in Asia, they are still good watches. The Asians make some good stuff.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Trust the seller, buy the watch tickles your eye.

Not really that hard.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

cold_beer839 said:


> 10 years of lurking then 15 posts in 6 hours. I'm no psychologist, but it seems someone is off their meds, or just trolling (or practicing their _ad hominem _skills as evidenced by post #122 in this thread).


Big world out there, includes lurkers and trolls, both fighting for position under the bridge. Don't name them before you know, it's mentality looking for a mob.


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## M1K3Z0R (Dec 3, 2012)

I doubt some random poster is going to shake Seiko off its foundations, there's really nothing scary here even if this is legitimate information. The way I see it the watches sell themselves on their own merits, Seiko knows this and thus there is no need for them to hock the country of manufacture as a feature. Either way, China is definitely capable of top-notch manufacturing while the countries we view as desirable are just as capable of producing garbage.



cold_beer839 said:


> 10 years of lurking then 15 posts in 6 hours. I'm no psychologist, but it seems someone is off their meds, or just trolling (e.g. the _ad hominem_ in post #122 of this thread)....


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

I'm still trying to find the poster in this thread legitimately pissed aside from dgbaker?

I don't think we've been lied to whatsoever&#8230; In fact, if more of us here had our finger directly on the pulse of Japanese business it may very well be common knowledge. The poster from Malaysia seemed to know this all too well which leads me to believe those with so much of an interest in Seiko might know its operational logistics at a minimum. 

Regardless of what anyone thinks, the list is heresay and a few MM300s on a table, while intriguing, doesn't prove a thing either&#8230; I think for the 98% of us participating in this thread the information doesn't matter either way... Most of us were having fun trying to connect the dots is all. Some take this watch collecting way too serious *ahem dgbaker*. :-d


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

sierra11b said:


> Some take this watch collecting way too serious *ahem dgbaker*. :-d


Nonetheless, don't marginalize him. He might be useful. (This of course is before I befriend him.)


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## dgbaker (Dec 9, 2013)

five[5] ad hominen comments, including intimating that I am mentally ill and a liar...utterly and completely hi-jacking the thread to which BOTH ARE against this site's TOS. and ALL FIVE[5] deserve to be censored.

Using a comment such as "off his meds" is as discriminatory as using a racist or misogynistic comment...they ARE the comments of bullies

rule number 2.

Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.

rule number 7.

Please limit off-topic posts, and mark them clearly as such ("OT" in the subject line, and/or the OT or coffee cup icon).

rule number 8.
Images in posts.

exercise discretion when posting pictures in keeping with the kind and courteous spirit of the forum


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## teatimecrumpet (Mar 14, 2013)

I request a troll gif


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## Pete26 (Feb 17, 2006)

cold_beer839 said:


> 10 years of lurking then 15 posts in 6 hours. I'm no psychologist, but it seems someone is off their meds, or just trolling (e.g. the _ad hominem_ in post #122 of this thread).
> 
> Anyway, Seiko makes a great watch, regardless of which part of Asia the watch in question is made at. It's not like Seiko has to make a watch entirely in Japan for it to be worth a damn, just like most 'Swiss made' watches are made from parts and movements sourced in Asia, they are still good watches. The Asians make some good stuff.


And the fact is that Seiko use their own production facilities rather than outsource production.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

So the thing I would like to see, is a followup on the comments that have been said about J versions having better fit&finish than K versions (iirc, there was one mention of that in this thread too).Can we get a bunch of pictures showing those differences, perhaps? Because that really is the underlying issue here: Is J=K, or is J>K? That would determine if we should be bothered about this MIC/MIM/MIJ or not...


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

dgbaker said:


> five[5] ad hominen comments, including intimating that I am mentally ill and a liar...utterly and completely hi-jacking the thread to which BOTH ARE against this site's TOS. and ALL FIVE[5] deserve to be censored.
> 
> Using a comment such as "off his meds" is as discriminatory as using a racist or misogynistic comment...they ARE the comments of bullies
> 
> ...


I bet you're just the life of the parties you attend... Tell me, does opening with "I'm a physiologist" really work on the ladies before you scare them off?


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## Ace McLoud (Jun 28, 2013)

dgbaker said:


> five[5] ad hominen comments, including intimating that I am mentally ill and a liar...utterly and completely hi-jacking the thread to which BOTH ARE against this site's TOS. and ALL FIVE[5] deserve to be censored.
> 
> Using a comment such as "off his meds" is as discriminatory as using a racist or misogynistic comment...they ARE the comments of bullies
> 
> ...


If you are seriously claiming Seiko are in breach of regulations when it comes to declaring where their watches are manufactured, then I suggest you be the first to report them.



X2-Elijah said:


> So the thing I would like to see, is a followup on the comments that have been said about J versions having better fit&finish than K versions (iirc, there was one mention of that in this thread too).Can we get a bunch of pictures showing those differences, perhaps? Because that really is the underlying issue here: Is J=K, or is J>K? That would determine if we should be bothered about this MIC/MIM/MIJ or not...


I agree pictures should be produced if such a comparison occurs, as there is now no way to exclude expectation bias from any comparison.


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## Fastdriver (Mar 15, 2014)

sebatron said:


> No it won't.
> How many watches do Seiko sell in any year?
> How many people are on WUS?
> How many prospective Seiko buyers will view this thread?
> ...


I will ask a simple question: How many WUS people will change their minds about buying Seiko?


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## Ace McLoud (Jun 28, 2013)

Fastdriver said:


> I will ask a simple question: How many WUS people will change their minds about buying Seiko?


At a guess: one?


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## GaryF (Dec 18, 2009)

jayhall0315 said:


> To further add to the discussion I would also mention that early on when I was researching Rolex and Omega, I remember coming across a business estimate that showed that Rolex makes about 3000 watches a day. (does it qualify for elite status if more than one million are made every year?) Many of Rolex's lower end models (like the Sub) are assembled by robot and final checked by a human technician. Various sources also put the price of the Rolex Sub 3135 movement (as an example) as less than $200 with an additional fee for COSC certification (which is a Rolex invention anyway). And if I remember correctly, the total cost of production (for Rolex) to make a Sub was about $480. And yet they sell this watch at official dealers for about $7700 to $8300. So almost $7500 profit on name value alone?


Rolexes are NOT assembled by robots. This is a common misconception. Until very recently, Rolex did not allow anyone into the factory apart from employees and those who had signed confidentiality agreements.
They did invite several journalists in about a year ago and they confirmed that, while some parts of the manufacturing processes are automated, the assembly itself is done by humans.


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

dgbaker said:


> Citizen V said:
> 
> 
> > Are you referring to me (and others)?
> ...


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## GaryF (Dec 18, 2009)

Withdrawn after rereading original post. My mistake.


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## Jcp311 (Mar 20, 2013)

dgbaker said:


> five[5] ad hominen comments, including intimating that I am mentally ill and a liar...utterly and completely hi-jacking the thread to which BOTH ARE against this site's TOS. and ALL FIVE[5] deserve to be censored.
> 
> Using a comment such as "off his meds" is as discriminatory as using a racist or misogynistic comment...they ARE the comments of bullies
> 
> ...


Calm down. You're taking the internet seriously.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

GaryF said:


> It seems that you built quite a rapport with that technician in order to get her to make her "juicy mistake". Was she aware that you were going to post her words on the internet along with her name?
> 
> I guess you really got her, eh?


Gary, no disrespect, but you need to read the original post again; It was not the female engineer who accidentally sent me that attachment. And most lower end Rolexes are fully assembled by robots. The only difference being that the receive a more thorough final review by a human before being prepared for final shipment to an AD. Although, as I already noted, that is not a bad thing. There is a very good reason why Rolex rarely ever allows the press anywhere near one of their manufacturing centers (and when they do, it is more or less staged) and it is precisely because they do not wish the myth dispelled that some old grandfatherly master craftsman is hand assembling them and that it takes quite a bit of secrecy to maintain market control (which begins at the production line) to turn a roughly $480 watch into a $8000 sale. (these are not my estimates by the way, the Economist and several other business related publications have made similar estimates that all put the production cost of a Rolex Sub at about $420 to $550). Which quite rightly means that the only industry in Swiss Land more secretive than the banking sector is the watch building sector


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

I would say trust the manufacturer more than the seller. In many countries, the manufacturer has greater liability for a false claim.

Take Marathon watches here in the US. Their authorized distributors are making claims that Marathons does not make. Such as the specific automatic movement being used in the watch. I trust that Marathon: by carefully making no such claim, they as clear as day making clear that they will use any automatic movement that has, per their contract with the US Government, at least 17 jewels I believe.



Sean779 said:


> Trust the seller, buy the watch tickles your eye.
> 
> Not really that hard.


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## GaryF (Dec 18, 2009)

My apologies on the identity of the technician. I rushed.

Regarding your Rolex point, you are wrong. As I said, last year, a small group of journalists and bloggers were invited to see how Rolex builds watches. Please click on the link to read the experience of one. You may want to scroll down to "3. Their movements are all hand-assembled and tested".

10 Things To Know About How Rolex Makes Watches | aBlogtoWatch

From the article:

"Rolex uses machines in the process for sure. In fact, Rolex easily has the most sophisticated watch making machinery in the world. The robots and other automated tasks are really used for tasks that humans aren't as good at. These include sorting, filing, cataloging, and very delicate procedures that involve the type of care you want a machine to handle. Most of these machines are still human-operated though. And everything from Rolex movements to bracelets are assembled by hand. A machine however helps with doing things such as applying the right pressure when attaching pins, aligning parts, and pressing down hands. Having said that, all Rolex watch hands are still set by hand via a trained technician."

Now, I realise that this is contrary to the view held by many in the internet's chattering class. I also realise that it can be dismissed as being "staged" as you put it, if you buy into that kind of conspiracy theory.
But, Ocham's Razor and all that, to dismiss the testimony of those who have actually been inside the factory (and many other watch factories- these are not necessarily people who ignorant watch production) and seen how the watches are built in favour of the fondly held general opinion that Rolexes are built by robots, seems a particularly poor way of coming by an opinion on the subject.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "lower end Rolexes", despite the fact that you give the Submariner as an example. Rolex don't really make high or low end watches. Making a watch in gold or sticking diamonds on it does not make it "high end" and neither does the addition of relatively prosaic complications (with the just possibly arguable exception of the Sky-dweller). Rolex makes mid-tier watches of good quality and nothing else so why would they apply completely different manufacturing processes to different watches?


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## PK73 (Sep 24, 2013)

I don't care where Seikos assembled, manufactured, made, painted, lumed or whatever, I love most of these watches and I admire them.
I buy watches not brands...


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## luth_ukail (Jun 23, 2014)

speaking of this brand, the newly released SARG013 looks interesting with the classic look.


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## Evanssprky (May 14, 2012)

If Rolex sell up to 800,000 watches a year, and assuming their technicians have six weeks holiday and work a five day week, that means there are about 3,500 movements hand assembled per day at Rolex. I dont know how long it takes to hand assemble a movement, or how many technicians capable of this they employ, but this seems a high number to me.
Thats before we look at regulating, adjusting, and final inspection and testing. Hmmmm..........


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## Evanssprky (May 14, 2012)

PK73 said:


> I don't care where Seikos assembled, manufactured, made, painted, lumed or whatever, I love most of these watches and I admire them.
> I buy watches not brands...


+1


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## GaryF (Dec 18, 2009)

Evanssprky said:


> If Rolex sell up to 800,000 watches a year, and assuming their technicians have six weeks holiday and work a five day week, that means there are about 3,500 movements hand assembled per day at Rolex. I dont know how long it takes to hand assemble a movement, or how many technicians capable of this they employ, but this seems a high number to me.
> Thats before we look at regulating, adjusting, and final inspection and testing. Hmmmm..........


I don't think anyone believes that there are people hand-assembling a single movement at a time. That would be ridiculous (and explain why it is often cheaper to buy a new movement than to strip one down and fix a broken one). Rolex has an extremely efficient production line with a lot of the work being broken down into many easily performed actions.
Take a massively hypothetical job like setting the hands for instance (and, no, I have no idea what system Rolex uses for this but I'd bet that it's more efficient than what I'm thinking). Imagine a person who is extremely skilled after repeating this thousands of times. Mimic the action yourself with an imaginary pair of tweezers.
Pick up. Place. Press down.
Pick up. Place. Press down.
Pick up. place. Press down.
That seems like something that might take a max of ten seconds (without the overly fastidious, poking and prodding you'll see on a youtube video). So, 60 per minute. 360 per hour. Two people doing the same job could do 3,600 in a five hour shift and then have time to wrestle an alligator for strap leather and prepare some fondu for the cafeteria.
Rolex has a massive workforce spread over two sites so I have no difficulty believing that there is a massive degree of hand assembly.
And there is no reason at all why the holidays and weekends need be a factor. How many modern companies cease production for six weeks so that all of the employees can go on holiday at once?

You know what? Don't take my word for whether or not the things are built be robots. Look for yourselves.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/what...chmaker-s-factory-K4xaA6WvSkOjkCChStpSyg.html


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## Evanssprky (May 14, 2012)

GaryF said:


> I don't think anyone believes that there are people hand-assembling a single movement at a time. That would be ridiculous (and explain why it is often cheaper to buy a new movement than to strip one down and fix a broken one). Rolex has an extremely efficient production line with a lot of the work being broken down into many easily performed actions.
> Take a massively hypothetical job like setting the hands for instance (and, no, I have no idea what system Rolex uses for this but I'd bet that it's more efficient than what I'm thinking). Imagine a person who is extremely skilled after repeating this thousands of times. Mimic the action yourself with an imaginary pair of tweezers.
> Pick up. Place. Press down.
> Pick up. Place. Press down.
> ...


Well I work in an engine manufacturing plant for a world wide brand motor car company.. There are three lines in our factory and our line alone produces a complete four cylinder engine with turbo, wiring harness etc attached every 21 seconds, three shifts a day, Monday to Friday. 
To use your analogy, yes, hundreds of people carrying out tasks of up to 21 seconds duration result in up to 3000 completed engines a day, much the same as Rolex numbers (and despite the obvious size difference, there's not a great deal of difference in complexity, except the car engine doesn't require adjusting and regulating in lord knows how many positions to satisfy the marketing scam that is commonly known as certificate of swiss chronometer testing).
And many modern production companies have long summer and Christmas shutdowns, it both saves production costs in low demand periods, and it reduces staffing levels if holiday cover doesn't have to be maintained 52 weeks a year.
So okay, yes, Rolex possibly can produce 3000+ watches a year without robots. But the impression that each is lovingly crafted in the way for example a Ferrari engine is, is totally false and misleading. There is no more great craftsmanship at the actual build stage than the most mass produced cars, washing machines, and television sets. The rest is marketing, window dressing, and a touch of smoke and mirrors.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks for those links Gary. I am not convinced in either direction (robot or human manufacture of Rolexes). Let's say, I remain skeptical. I don't own any Rolexes, so I have no vested interest in either direction.


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## GaryF (Dec 18, 2009)

Evanssprky said:


> But the impression that each is lovingly crafted in the way for example a Ferrari engine is, is totally false and misleading. There is no more great craftsmanship at the actual build stage than the most mass produced cars, washing machines, and television sets. The rest is marketing, window dressing, and a touch of smoke and mirrors.


Absolutely no argument from me at all there. I just get tired of reading about the robots and the fully automated production lines, robots and such.


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## Evanssprky (May 14, 2012)

GaryF said:


> Absolutely no argument from me at all there. I just get tired of reading about the robots and the fully automated production lines, robots and such.


At least it makes a change from j versus k ;-)


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

GaryF said:


> My apologies on the identity of the technician. I rushed.
> 
> Regarding your Rolex point, you are wrong. As I said, last year, a small group of journalists and bloggers were invited to see how Rolex builds watches. Please click on the link to read the experience of one. You may want to scroll down to "3. Their movements are all hand-assembled and tested".
> 
> ...


then they Can't take Many days off in a year 
if they are to make about 1 mill watches in a year by hand thats for sure,
note that it is trained technician not watch makers that are making the watches.

we are free to belive what we Want...


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## glengoyne17 (May 29, 2011)

Just checking if i understand correctly. OP states 8L35 is robot assembled. 

-I assume the "I bet" part was added by OP?
-The conclusion is drawn that 8L35 is robot assembled. I indeed see a definition that RA means robot assembly, but does that imply the watch and/or the movement? You can still hand assemble a movement and than assemble the watch by robot?

Just want to be sure how we interpret company internal abbreviations. 





--------
SBDX001 (MarineMaster 300m) - Raw Parts mainly from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, RA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan (bet this will surprise many as the 8L35 in this watch is robot assembled)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

glengoyne17 said:


> Just checking if i understand correctly. OP states 8L35 is robot assembled.
> 
> -I assume the "I bet" part was added by OP?
> -The conclusion is drawn that 8L35 is robot assembled. I indeed see a definition that RA means robot assembly, but does that imply the watch and/or the movement? You can still hand assemble a movement and than assemble the watch by robot?
> ...


Here Glen, bet = guess, as in, "I guess this will surprise many that the 8L35.....". I know I was a bit surprised.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Glad I only buy low end Seikos, like the wonderful monsters. I don't care if they're made by robotic donkeys.


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

Thought I'd add something funny to the thread. I opened up this old quartz fossil watch that I wore in like middle school and stopped running prob 15 years ago. Inside I found both the words "Swiss made" AND Japan. I guess I have the holy grail fossil watch lmao jk. Just found it funny since the watch obviously never saw either one of those countries.


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## sebatron (Jul 17, 2014)

jalcon said:


> Thought I'd add something funny to the thread. I opened up this old quartz fossil watch that I wore in like middle school and stopped running prob 15 years ago. Inside I found both the words "Swiss made" AND Japan. I guess I have the holy grail fossil watch lmao jk. Just found it funny since the watch obviously never saw either one of those countries.


You know that's the battery, right?


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

sebatron said:


> You know that's the battery, right?


Sure...the battery says Swiss Made but it was probably really made in China or Malaysia.


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

sebatron said:


> You know that's the battery, right?


Of course. Still funny.


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## glengoyne17 (May 29, 2011)

jayhall0315 said:


> Here Glen, bet = guess, as in, "I guess this will surprise many that the 8L35.....". I know I was a bit surprised.


Thanks but where does it say what RA refers to? Watch and/or movement assembly?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GaryF (Dec 18, 2009)

Stensbjerg said:


> we are free to belive what we Want...


Okay.


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## Pelican (Mar 26, 2009)

cold_beer839 said:


> 10 years of lurking then 15 posts in 6 hours. I'm no psychologist, but it seems someone is off their meds, or just trolling (e.g. the _ad hominem_ in post #122 of this thread).


Whether I agree or disagree with the post quoted above is irrelevant - it made me laugh!


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## hantms (May 28, 2014)

Sean779 said:


> Glad I only buy low end Seikos, like the wonderful monsters. I don't care if they're made by robotic donkeys.


From a Western and Swiss / Artisan watch background we tend to value handmade. In Japan they're much more focused on what is actually the very best way to do something, and do it consistently with predictable quality.

And secondly, in a lot of manufacturing it takes considerably more skill and cost to automate things, compared to having a big factory in China or Vietnam, full of people doing stuff by hand. People are a lot cheaper, but typically the end result has bigger variances.

And consider that even though we imagine that luxury Swiss watches are made by hand, that's not actually true for mass market brands like Rolex.


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

I mean no harm with what I write, and I really mean that we all are free to belive what we what 
to me that is more importent then any thing Else 
also what is Right and wrong in this case.

I see the link as a Big add for Rolex and thats fine for those who what to Read Them,
I don't and to me it come Down to numbers 
how the hell do Rolex handmade ( as the say in the link/add) about 1 mill Watches 
in the same High quality as we all know they make,
every year if they don't use robots like Seiko does.

I just like to be told the hole truth but thats just me.

There is nothing wrong with robots in watch making from my point of view,
and I also understand why Rolex say the things they say to protect there brand,
and the hole story about what it Will say to buy a Rolex.


As I see it are the long old story Many swiss brand have,
there biggest avance but also the biggest Down Fall.

but as I Said before 
it is great that we are free to belive and buy what ever we Want.


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

Suppose we take that as a fact.
Why aren't all skx's marked made in Japan?
There are Singapore ones and Malaysian ones ...
I'll post a mail sent to me regarding skx place of manufacturing....
That says otherwise ....


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

Here it is 
I erased the manager's name for reasons that you can understand ...


.Dear Mr. Nicholas D............

We acknowledge receiving your e-mail. Thank you for your patronage of SEIKO watches.

In reply to your inquiry, concerning SKX007J, it is manufactured in our production facility in Japan, as it displays the marking “JAPAN.”, that is followed by the Japan Clock & Watch Association's guideline for the indication of origin.

For relieving your concern we are to be honest with you, we have several SEIKO watch factories not only in Japan but in other countries. Having said so, in case the watch displays the marking “JAPAN” or “MADE IN JAPAN,” it is manufactured in our production facility in Japan. So, please trust our company.

On the other hand, like many other companies these days, SEIKO has expanded its production sites outside Japan. In case there is no indication concerning country of origin displayed on the watch, we are unable to say which facility produced the watch as we do not disclose this information to the public.

However, this does not indicate any decline in quality, as all Seiko facilities, no matter where they are located, must operate in accordance with our strict guidelines and procedures. In fact, the production location of a particular watch may change as a result of number of variables, which is why the presence or lack of a country marking is not significant from our point of view.

We hope this e-mail has made it clear for you, and we sincerely hope that you will continue giving your trust and patronage to our products in the future, too.

With best regards, CS Dept. SEIKO Watch Corporation *****************************



I wonder ....
Are Seiko people crazy ??
Maybe ...lies ??

I don't get it ...

Regards ,

Nicholas ,Greece .


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## Ugly Dude (Jul 7, 2013)

nicholas.d said:


> Here it is
> I erased the manager's name for reasons that you can understand ...
> 
> .Dear Mr. Nicholas D............
> ...


Whoa, this surprising and new to me.


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

Personally I take Japanese people very very seriously 
It took them years to build a solid trustworthy brand...
They wouldn't risk lies to their respected clients ... 

Regards 
Nicholas.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

nicholas.d said:


> Personally I take Japanese people very very seriously
> It took them years to build a solid trustworthy brand...
> They wouldn't risk lies to their respected clients ...
> 
> ...


This wasn't a "They," it was a "he." His email struck me as the height of professionalism. Nothing to hide.


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## idkfa (Mar 31, 2013)

nicholas.d said:


> Here it is
> I erased the manager's name for reasons that you can understand ...
> 
> .Dear Mr. Nicholas D............
> ...


This is big news, and different from my understanding. I always read that 'J' or 'Made in Japan' only indicated the market, not the actual production location. Does anyone have any more information on the Japan Clock & Watch Association?


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## jalcon (Sep 8, 2014)

Whole lot of hearsay going in this thread.


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## Evanssprky (May 14, 2012)

Well I always (perhaps naively) assumed that "made in Japan" means made in Japan, maybe not 100% sourced in Japan but at least assembled and checked there. Anything else would be a downright lie and the destination market law people talk of sounds utter tosh to me.
If a watch is merely marked "Japan", then yes, that can have all sorts of interpretations applied to it, but "made in" sounds pretty emphatic to me.


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## Potatotree (Mar 22, 2011)

carlowus said:


> Thank you for sharing the data. Obviously not what the majority was expecting but then with the global economy it makes sense that certain components of the movement for example are all made in one location, 4r, 6r and 7s movements seem to be similar and share parts. I don't think less of Seiko for this, I normally don't judge by the brand name or country of origin but by how the watch looks to me personally, if it is well made and it works, it could be made in Mars for what I care.
> 
> However if the lie is used as a deception to increase prices and profits, then it simply it NOT cool at all.


Well of course it ("Japan Made") is a means of boosting profits; as is the use of outsourcing, lower living wages, looser labor regulations, cheaper building costs, incentives of all forms, etc. To be profitable is the main objective of a business. Seiko wants to stay in business more than they want to be watch/movement snobs. The most successful large businesses of today are those that best understand scale and margin. Those with a legacy to substantiate become creative.Regardless of anything else, at the end of the day (and btw at the beginning), what drives profit is most of what we're buying, what is not is becoming obsolete or being made at home. The exception is when margin becomes so great that it doesn't matter anymore; the elite luxury level. But nothing truly "elite" is ever mass produced.

I'm not sure I believe this email is true, but either way the reality is that a lot of people like their Seiko watches, from the skx's to the Grand's. Let's not mess with a good thing.


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Evanssprky said:


> Well I always (perhaps naively) assumed that "made in Japan" means made in Japan,
> If a watch is merely marked "Japan",... but "made in" sounds pretty emphatic to me.


I think the Japanese and the Swiss and everyone else should do away with "MADE IN" altogether.

I think they should do the "politically weaselly" thing -- like a cousin to "Mistakes were made" -- and just say (in this case Seiko): "Japan had something to do with the making of this watch."

As for the Swiss, I would prefer them to say: 
"When you look at this watch, you want a hot cuppa Swiss Miss. What does that tell ya?"


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

.


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

Chronopolis said:


> As for the Swiss, I would prefer them to say:
> "When you look at this watch, you want a hot cuppa Swiss Miss. What does that tell ya?"


Was this watch made in Menomonie, Wisconsin?


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Chronopolis said:


> As for the Swiss, I would prefer them to say:
> "When you look at this watch, you want a hot cuppa Swiss Miss. What does that tell ya?"





adi4 said:


> Was this watch made in Menomonie, Wisconsin?


See waddamean?
They could evade the whole question and say: "Just sayin..." :-D

PS: I call that nasty product "Swiss Piss" myself.


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

Sean779 said:


> This wasn't a "They," it was a "he." His email struck me as the height of professionalism. Nothing to hide.


''he'' IS Seiko...


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

here is a fantastic swiss made tag heuer....

https://www.watchuseek.com/attachme...-tag-heuer-indy-500-thailand-movement-tag.jpg

i think swiss are cheating a bit more than japanese...


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## squibby (Jul 22, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> So the thing I would like to see, is a followup on the comments that have been said about J versions having better fit&finish than K versions (iirc, there was one mention of that in this thread too).Can we get a bunch of pictures showing those differences, perhaps? Because that really is the underlying issue here: Is J=K, or is J>K? That would determine if we should be bothered about this MIC/MIM/MIJ or not...


I've been Swayed this way and that way by this forum regarding the J vs K thing. I'm going to believe what the evidence shows. My two J's cost more and say" made in Japan" So I expect that they are mostly made in Japan. My K model was cheaper and has a misaligned bezel. I'll be buying J's henceforth.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

nicholas.d said:


> Personally I take Japanese people very very seriously
> It took them years to build a solid trustworthy brand...
> They wouldn't risk lies to their respected clients ...
> 
> ...


They are not lying. They label the watches in accordance with the import laws established by the countries for which they intend to import these watches in to. Seiko has no say in this, and simply do what they are told.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

idkfa said:


> This is big news, and different from my understanding. I always read that 'J' or 'Made in Japan' only indicated the market, not the actual production location. Does anyone have any more information on the Japan Clock & Watch Association?


The Japan Clock & Watch Association is not a legal body, and does not make laws for Japan, or govern import\export laws and regulations for Japan. Nor do they make laws or regulations on importing watches into other countries.

What any watch maker importing watches for sale into the US, for example, marks their watches according to regulations that are 100% dictated by US government regarding importing watches into the US. Seiko, Rolex, Switzerland, Japan, the Japan Clock & Watch Association, the Dali Lama, Santa Claus, the Queen England, etc have all the exact same input on that: zero.

US government regulation requires, on watches, the the country where the movement (not watch) is assembled must be marked on the case where a consumer can easily find it (i.e. does not need to open the case). Seiko, Omega, etc, must follow these regulations to the letter if they want in get past customs.

Don't blame the watch manufacturer .... well, too much, anyway. I'm sure they lobby for regulations the protect their interests.

Now, watches illegally brought here would be labeled according to the country's import laws for where they were intended for sale. There are gray market watches.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

All the above is true, but Seiko is a member company of the JCWA and must follow its regulations. However, their regulations are the same as Japan's rules for origins (actually slightly stricter), which are similar or the same as what other countries require for importation: the country of origin is the country where the last substantive change was made. In the case of watches, that's where the movement was assembled. The JCWA also requires the watch to be assembled in Japan to be marked "Made in Japan".



idkfa said:


> This is big news, and different from my understanding. I always read that 'J' or 'Made in Japan' only indicated the market, not the actual production location. Does anyone have any more information on the Japan Clock & Watch Association?


It was always speculated that "J" indicated the market. I don't think anyone argued that "Made in Japan" did.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

squibby said:


> I've been Swayed this way and that way by this forum regarding the J vs K thing. I'm going to believe what the evidence shows. My two J's cost more and say" made in Japan" So I expect that they are mostly made in Japan. My K model was cheaper and has a misaligned bezel. I'll be buying J's henceforth.


By design, this seems to all be just cloudy enough so that we as consumers are free to believe what ever makes us feel best about our purchases and, unless we take apart our watches piece by piece, never have to risk the unpleasantness of possibly being confronted by evidence to the contrary to our desired beliefs.


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

nepatriot said:


> They are not lying. They label the watches in accordance with the import laws established by the countries for which they intend to import these watches in to. Seiko has no say in this, and simply do what they are told.


Take a minute and read the mail Seiko sent me mate.....


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## Laso1 (Oct 10, 2012)

*SEIKOS ARE MADE IN HEAVEN...........*


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

Meh, this isn't anything surprising. It's no different than the use of the "Swiss Made" moniker. Having had both J and K Seiko's, I really can't tell the difference.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

nicholas.d said:


> Take a minute and read the mail Seiko sent me mate.....


I read your post, mate. Sorry have no idea what you are referring to. Unless you think Japanese law somehow supersedes the import laws of other countries.

For example, Seiko can assemble a watch in China, in a factory they own, and label it Made in Japan IF they are planning to sell that watch in Japan. That same watch, made in the same factory, on the same assembly line, but intended to be imported for sale into the US, cannot say "Made in Japan"; it must by law say where the movement was assembled. So if the movement for that watch is assembled in Malaysia, and the watch assembled in China, the watch will say "Assembled in Malaysia" for the US, and "Made in Japan" for Japan.

Seiko has nothing to do with that.


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## Byfrost (Dec 23, 2008)

nicholas.d said:


> Here it is
> I erased the manager's name for reasons that you can understand ...
> 
> .Dear Mr. Nicholas D............
> ...





Roy87 said:


> Hi jayhall0315
> 
> Would it possible to show us a screen shot of this correspondence, probably would be good for archival purposes. You could censor sensitive information like the names of the people and their email addresses but leave important details behind (instead of censoring the full email address, you may want to leave the "@seiko.co.jp" back) so we know it came from a reliable source. Not that it is a trust issue but would be great to provide evidence on this rather than I could also start a similar thread stating I got an email from Seiko and they told me that a SKX007J is entirely Made and hand assembled in Japan ya know?
> 
> ...


Appreciate if you provide us with a screen shot, I've quoted a reply of mine above. Else, pictures or it didn't happen. You can censor names in the picture but leave traces like "@Seiko.co.jp" so we know that it actually came from a email source. Much appreciated.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Here we go again. Don't you know it's easy to edit/fake an email, together with the [email protected] and everything. Screenshot of an email proves exactly nothing.


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

Found a snippet of that Dr. Seiko thread I referred to back in this thread where he suggests the 8L35 is robot assembled.

Again, it proves nothing but I respect the man's opinion on all things Seiko rather than a lot of what's been posted in this leak thread:

Inside Seiko`s Caliber 8L35. in SeikoHolics Support Forum. Forum

From the link:

*"The puddle of oil is pretty clear to see (I don`t have photo point arrows anymore to point it out RN). Again, this is the pallet fork arbor, and this is untouched from what the factory did. **SUFFICE it to say there is not a watch in the world using the Swiss Anchor Escapement that can run any where near good in this condition. There is simply way too much oil in the very worst place possible for good accuracy. *

*And EVERY 8L35 I have done has been flooded with oil this way. I believe Seiko is using assembly robots on these and it should`nt be so. They simply cant handle the exacting nature of precise oiling and should never be used at this price level in horology. "*


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

nepatriot said:


> I read your post, mate. Sorry have no idea what you are referring to. Unless you think Japanese law somehow supersedes the import laws of other countries.
> 
> For example, Seiko can assemble a watch in China, in a factory they own, and label it Made in Japan IF they are planning to sell that watch in Japan. That same watch, made in the same factory, on the same assembly line, but intended to be imported for sale into the US, cannot say "Made in Japan"; it must by law say where the movement was assembled. So if the movement for that watch is assembled in Malaysia, and the watch assembled in China, the watch will say "Assembled in Malaysia" for the US, and "Made in Japan" for Japan.
> 
> Seiko has nothing to do with that.


" Japan"

" Japan made "

" made in Japan "

Can you tell the difference?

How can this be so hard to understand ?
things you can do :
Claim the mail is a fake ...or Seiko is not being honest 
Or provide us with a mail that says otherwise

And the point of this thread isn't about Seiko quality ...
They are the same wherever they are made ....maybe k' s are better ...
I don't care...

The point is :
Is Seiko honest about country of manufacture ?

made " IN" Japan 
Is this freaking true? Or not ?


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Relax. And I'm not making any claim about your email one way or the other. We have all known all along that it is essentially correct.

My point is simple: Seiko is labeling their watches as per import requirements for the intended market of sale. THEIR intended market, BTW, and not where we may be buying them from. If you buy a Seiko from a seller in Hong Kong, the watch may have been sourced from inventory intended for sale in India, and be labeled in accordance with that market's import requirements. My 171 has no country stated anywhere externally, which I believe complies with the Philippines*.*

If Seiko is planning to import a watch to your country for sale, they will label the watch per what ever import rules regarding watches your country has in effect. Seiko is not, I believe, mislabeling watches. The JDM watches many of us like say "Made in Japan" because that is what Japanese law states: watches made in a Japanese owns factory outside Japan, intended for sale in Japan, can be labeled as such.

This is not deceptive; it's just a surprise to some.



nicholas.d said:


> " Japan"
> 
> " Japan made "
> 
> ...


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

> watches made in a Japanese owns factory outside Japan, intended for sale in Japan, can be labeled as such.


AFAIK we still don't have any definite proof that this is actually true.


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## Byfrost (Dec 23, 2008)

Okapi001 said:


> Here we go again. Don't you know it's easy to edit/fake an email, together with the [email protected] and everything. Screenshot of an email proves exactly nothing.


In that case nothing in this thread proves anything. I'm just try to set a baseline for discussion here. If that's what you meant, everything in this thread can be faked and just wall of text to be taken with a pinch of salt.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Roy87 said:


> In that case nothing in this thread proves anything. I'm just try to set a baseline for discussion here. If that's what you meant, everything in this thread can be faked and just wall of text to be taken with a pinch of salt.


Welcome to the net;-) And yes, that's exactly what I meant - everything in this thread can be faked.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Okapi001 said:


> AFAIK we still don't have any definite proof that this is actually true.


Yes you do: it is Japanese government regulation. Go look it up. Import regulations are definitive, and no one has questioned that.

What there is no definitive proof on is authenticity and accuracy of the details in the OP's memo. Some, part, or none may be true.

My point is that how Seiko labels their watches is simply a function of the specific import regulations of what ever the country Seiko is going to export to and sell their watches in. In other words, there is no conspiracy here, no deception or fraud.


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

Okapi001 said:


> Welcome to the net;-) And yes, that's exactly what I meant - everything in this thread can be faked.


Truth some times is hard to swallow...

Prove you are human .....

Why don't you sent a mail to Seiko ??
It's that simple...

Over and out ...


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

> Yes you do: it is Japanese government regulation. Go look it up.


Please post a link/quote - I can't find anything.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Okapi001 said:


> Please post a link/quote - I can't find anything.


Just look up importing regs for watches on Japan's government web site. If I could find it you can too, just might take some digging. I certainly don't have the time or interest to do your homework for you, sorry.


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## fjblair (Apr 24, 2009)

dgbaker said:


> five[5] ad hominen comments, including intimating that I am mentally ill and a liar...utterly and completely hi-jacking the thread to which BOTH ARE against this site's TOS. and ALL FIVE[5] deserve to be censored.
> 
> Using a comment such as "off his meds" is as discriminatory as using a racist or misogynistic comment...they ARE the comments of bullies
> 
> ...


Crybaby and a troll. Nice.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

nepatriot said:


> Just look up importing regs for watches on Japan's government web site. If I could find it you can too, just might take some digging. I certainly don't have the time or interest to do your homework for you, sorry.


So you expect from me to believe your word.;-) And if I can't find anything it's because my searching abilities are limited, not because there is no such regulation. Great.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Okapi001 said:


> So you expect from me to believe your word.;-) And if I can't find anything it's because my searching abilities are limited, not because there is no such regulation. Great.


Sorry, no disrespect intended, but I don't care in the slightest what you believe or not. I was curious about this a few months ago, regarding how much of a GS is actually in-house (as I had always accepted as gospel that the answer was 100%). I found that Seiko's own website not only makes no such claim, but actually states that they try to design and mfg as much as possible in-house. So that lead to the next logical question: how much is made in Japan. I have always heard here and elsewhere that not all "made in Japan" watches are actually made in Japan. Search as if you want to import watches into Japan under their government site for businesses wanting to do business in Japan.


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## Byfrost (Dec 23, 2008)

nicholas.d said:


> Truth some times is hard to swallow...
> 
> Prove you are human .....
> 
> ...


I did! Now awaiting their reply. I will post up a full screen shot in the event if they do reply. (I captured a step by step screenshots while sending them the question via their web page contact form).


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

nepatriot said:


> Sorry, no disrespect intended, but I don't care in the slightest what you believe or not. I was curious about this a few months ago, regarding how much of a GS is actually in-house (as I had always accepted as gospel that the answer was 100%). I found that Seiko's own website not only makes no such claim, but actually states that they try to design and mfg as much as possible in-house. So that lead to the next logical question: how much is made in Japan. I have always heard here and elsewhere that not all "made in Japan" watches are actually made in Japan. Search as if you want to import watches into Japan under their government site for businesses wanting to do business in Japan.


On a very boring conf call ... here are some leads you can dig through .... eventually you will find it. Have fun.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/origin-seiko-orient-watches-355551.html
http://www.orientalwatchsite.com/swiss-vs-japanese-out-house-movements/
NY I82212 - The tariff classification and marking of a clock from Japan - United States International Trade Commision Rulings
Trade Regulations of Japan | HKTDC
Watches & Clocks Industry in Hong Kong | HKTDC
SWITZERLAND Trademark Regulations 9 | Japan Patent Office
China Customs, Trade Regulations and Procedures Handbook - Ibpus.com, International Business Publications, USA - Google Books


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

nepatriot said:


> On a very boring conf call ... here are some leads you can dig through .... eventually you will find it. Have fun.


Sorry, but I have to dissapoint you. I didn't find anything useful in your links. I did however find, somewhere else, this:



> Under the Act against Unjustifiable Premiums and Misleading Representations, the examples below are considered misleading representations.
> Ex.: Apparel products sewed in China of Japanese material may not be labeled "Made in Japan"
> (such products may be labeled "Made in China of Japan fabric").
> *Labeling that could cause consumers to imagine a product was produced in a country other than its country of origin (country or region names, flags, or crests) is prohibited.*


So, I'm still waiting for exact quote or link that something made in a foreign country, under any circumstances, can be labeled "made in Japan".


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

I also found out why watches are frequently labeled like "movement Japan, cased China" - it's because there are different interpretation of what constitute the last substantial modification, in other words - where was the watch actually made. Under some legislation the watch was made in the country where the movement was made (assembled), in other legislation it's where the watch itself was assembled. So to cover all bases, both countries are mentioned.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

nepatriot said:


> On a very boring conf call ... here are some leads you can dig through .... eventually you will find it. Have fun.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/origin-seiko-orient-watches-355551.html
> http://www.orientalwatchsite.com/swiss-vs-japanese-out-house-movements/
> ...


It seems to me that in the time you spent getting these links, you could have just linked the relevant Japanese government site that has that regulation. :think:

I went searching through several Japanese government sites last time you said the same thing on page 10 and couldn't find it. Admittedly I only skimmed them since there were so many pages and pdfs, but I did spend a good chunk of time doing this. Most of these gov't sites, like JETRO and their Handbook for Consumer Products Import Regulations, supported the idea that it has to be made _in _Japan, and made no mentioned of Japanese owned factories outside of Japan qualifying.

EDIT: Not saying this regulation is made up; I've seen it claimed by a few different people during my time here so it seems to be a real regulation or based on something.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

It may be just an urban wus myth.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Citizen V said:


> It seems to me that in the time you spent getting these links, you could have just linked the relevant Japanese government site that has that regulation. :think:
> 
> I went searching through several Japanese government sites last time you said the same thing on page 10 and couldn't find it. Admittedly I only skimmed them since there were so many pages and pdfs, but I did spend a good chunk of time doing this. Most of these gov't sites, like JETRO and their Handbook for Consumer Products Import Regulations, supported the idea that it has to be made _in _Japan, and made no mentioned of Japanese owned factories outside of Japan qualifying.
> 
> EDIT: Not saying this regulation is made up; I've seen it claimed by a few different people during my time here so it seems to be a real regulation or based on something.


I don't have the links, or I would have pasted them. As stated, I spent an hour or so, a few months back, and found the definition in a regulation on either the US gov or Japanese gov site, can't remember which it was. It was all in english, and was providing guidance for a business looking to import watches into Japan. My point to the guy above is if you care to spend a few hours looking, here are some starting points that were familiar. Maybe it's a needle in a haystack, but I know others here, who have far more knowledge on this topic, have stated the same thing in the past as well. Not as if they had an issue, just matter of fact. I have no questions or concerns, and so won't spend the time to find this again. I have no doubts that how ever Seiko labels their watches, they are following government prescribed regulations, and are not doing anything below board. I'm not saying I agree, or it isn't confusing or misleading. But watch making is a protected industry in Japan as it is in Switzerland.

I also have no doubt that few if any Seiko's are fully made in Japan, and have zero issue with that too. I don't think too many Swiss made watches are fully made in Switzerland either. And if they were fully made Switzerland, or Japan, they would cost far more than what we pay now. And not function better, or be made any nicer. This may be hard for some people to accept, and they of course are free to believe anything they want. There are I'm sure those that would still deny it even if presented a link to an official Japanese Gov web site.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Okapi001 said:


> It may be just an urban wus myth.


The only WUS myth was that GS and the MM300 were 100% in-house. But Seiko's own GS web site not only does not make this claim, but also states that they try to design and source as many parts as possible in-house. So not 100% after all. I had accepted as blind faith that GS and the MM were 100% in-house because I had read it here so many times.

I have no idea of the OP's memo summary is real or not. But I have no doubt that many, perhaps most, "Made in Japan" watches are not actually made in Japan.


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## adi4 (Dec 20, 2011)

For those curious, I think METI is the ministry in charge of setting rules of origin for Japan. Some light reading I've done mostly indicates that if a "substantial change" is made to a product, then it can be labeled as originating where that change was made. Nothing cut and clear from my preliminary search yet, but it does indicate it can't be merely assembled to call it a "substantial change".


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## domoon (Apr 13, 2014)

My grandma told me on her email years ago that seiko is actually made in moon and supervised directly by princess kaguya. But i can't link you to the email since my cat changed my email password months ago and my grandma has passed away. You can believe me or not and can find the documentation elsewhere. And i don't think I'd do your homework for you so Google it by yourself. Ok? Ok!

Tlapatlaked


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

adi4 said:


> For those curious, I think METI is the ministry in charge of setting rules of origin for Japan. Some light reading I've done mostly indicates that if a "substantial change" is made to a product, then it can be labeled as originating where that change was made. Nothing cut and clear from my preliminary search yet, but it does indicate it can't be merely assembled to call it a "substantial change".


The document I had found (wish now for my own benefit I had saved the link) clearly stated that the factory had to be Japanese owned and operated, and was specifically about watches. I know Nikon makes some lenses in China and camera bodies in Malaysia, in their own factories, and they are labeled "Made in China" or Malaysia. So cameras are not governed by the same regulation. I what I posted for our volunteer researcher above, one link gets in to the whole Swiss made requirement, which is based on a % of components made in Switzerland, and something along the lines of what you describe "substantial change". Net-net, not all that much has to be actually fabricated or assembled in Switzerland to be label as made there.

Overall I think most of us would be surprised as how many items we buy are not made exactly where we think they are based on the origin markings. Years ago I remember reading that the most "American made" car, i.e. highest % of the parts used, was a Honda. I think the % was less than 50. I'm sure which mfg\model is different today, but probably a smaller % of parts are made in the US. More recently I discovered that "Made in America" Allen Edmond shoes are really just assembled here from components mostly made elsewhere. The uppers, i.e the leather parts, are all fabricated elsewhere and imported.

On the other hand, Walmart is working with a Chinese company to make christmas trees and ornaments in the US. This is possible due to robotics and automation.

To me this actually increase the value as collectables some older watches that were actually made in Japan or Switzerland. IOW, not saying they are better, but rather nostalgic pieces of days when people who made watches were more craftsman rather than assemblers.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

I think the source of this "urban myth" is a thread on WUS from January 2010.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/origin-seiko-orient-watches-355551.html



> "Here is something that will come as a shock. I have represented some of the finest Swiss brand names in Japan. This places me in frequent contact with Customs and makes me quite knowledgeable about Japanese tariffs and country of origin branding laws. According to Japanese law, a watch which is manufactured overseas in a Japanese owned (or contracted) factory to Japanese quality control standards under Japanese supervision by a Japanese owned firm may be labeled "Made in Japan".


Sorry, nepatriot, but I will regard this as only a myth, until somebody finds a real Japanese regulation or law with such a provision.


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## Ace McLoud (Jun 28, 2013)

I think the burden of proof should be on the one making the claim. I'd like to see this regulation. It must be buried pretty deep in some small-print.

Maybe the confusion is between 'in-house' and 'Japan made'. The first is very ambiguous (we know that Japanese companies don't hold the same view on what constitutes 'manufacture' as the Swiss do) wheres the second is defined by law (let's ignore how easy it is to circumvent these laws). 

I wonder what's happening inside Seiko's Japanese facilities? Are they just sitting empty or are there in fact some watches actually being made in Japan?


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## Byfrost (Dec 23, 2008)

Roy87 said:


> I did! Now awaiting their reply. I will post up a full screen shot in the event if they do reply. (I captured a step by step screenshots while sending them the question via their web page contact form).


Ok as above my previous post, here are the screen shots of the emails sent to and from Seiko via their web contact form here: https://service.seiko-watch.co.jp/form/default.asp

Please note that I've censored 3 personal details. 1) My second name. I shall show my name as Roy in the screenshots. 2) My personal Gmail address. (For obvious reasons) 3) My display profile photo. (Top right corner white box is censored)

Is it so hard to post screen shots for those who claimed to have emails about this? A simple post like this would have suffice, right? You may counter argue that well, since this image is doctored to censor the personal details, who knows the image / email might be doctored / faked as well. *Well, it's up to you to believe or not.*

Anyway, the initial content in the form filling screenshot is slightly different (I excluded the SRP307J aka second generation monster). Apparently the contact form is bugged, clicking the "Back" button will send my "drafts" as well. hence the multiple emails to and from Seiko and the difference in content in the "form filling" screenshot which i excluded the SRP307J. The various messages are just minor error correction as well as the inclusion of SRP307J.

1st Screenshot - Shows that I've sent them 5 emails (form is bugged as explained, clicking the back button will still be considered as message sent to them)



2nd Screenshot - Form filling review summary page



3rd Screenshot - Confirmation Page.



4th Screenshot - Seiko's reply to me. This screenshot shows the *"mailed-by: seiko-watch.co.jp"*



5th Screenshot - With the official reply


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

Roy87 said:


> Ok as above my previous post, here are the screen shots of the emails sent to and from Seiko via their web contact form here: https://service.seiko-watch.co.jp/form/default.asp
> 
> Please note that I've censored 3 personal details. 1) My second name. I shall show my name as Roy in the screenshots. 2) My personal Gmail address. (For obvious reasons) 3) My display profile photo. (Top right corner white box is censored)
> 
> ...


Thank you for believing what I've said so far....
As you see my mail is not a fake...

Thank you for confirming everything I said so far ....

Best regards...
Nicholas .


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## jrep72 (Sep 17, 2013)

To shorten this discussion, may I suggest the ff:

1. For Seiko collectors who only want "Made in Japan", please buy and collect Seiko Vintage watches only or any model manufactured until 1979

2. For Seiko collectors who love the brand, please collect any Seiko watch model you like and love (or until your Seiko addiction ends...I doubt). 

3. For collectors who don't like Seiko, we are not forcing anyone to love the brand. Please let us all collect watches (any preferred brand) and enjoy it with peace and harmony.


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

You must own a lot of k's ....
Jrep....
That goes for everyone who agrees with (1)
Discussion cant get shorter than that.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Not sure what you're supporting here. Your talking about one of the new version II monsters, right? If so, the "J" version of that watch says "Made in Japan"; the version legally imported into the US says "Mvt Assembled in Japan". It's the same watch. I think the other export versions of that same watch say something similar. So what Seiko is doing is complying with the various import requirements of the countries each watch is intended for sale in.

For the US, it must state where the movement was assembled. For Japan, if the movement was was assembled in Japan, it can say "Made in Japan". Both countries have regs about what "assembled in" means, i.e. how much of the work done on the final assembly. So I think what we can deduce from this is what we already know: the 4r36 movement's "final" assembly at least is done in Japan. Or was, when your watch was made. It may be entirely assembled in Japan. Perhaps from parts 80% sourced from Seiko factories in Japan ... or maybe 100% sourced from Seiko facilities outside Japan. Or maybe some, maybe a lot, of the parts are outsourced to non-Seiko factories The assembled movement may be sent to Malaysia, where the final watch was assembled. In all cases, the watch can be labeled as stated, based on the import laws of the country for which it is intended for sale in. Seiko is not going to provide you all that detail, but rather will answer you in accordance of what the regs were for the watch version you asked about.

To be honest, I've kind of lost track of your issue. Surely, logically, you can understand Seiko is manufacturing parts all over Asia, is out sourcing some percentage of those parts, and is assembling watches as all efficient manufacturer do: where it most cost effective in order for the finished product to be affordable for its intended consumer. So by extension, logically, you must understand that Seiko is not manufacturing and assembling just a small percentage of the sum total produced of the same watch in Japan, and the rest in Malaysia or China? Or that Seiko would not perform as much manufacturing, assembling, and labor, especially for entry or lower end watches, in places that are far more cost effective than Japan? Based on that, the quantities produced, the robotics involved, and size of business, it is highly likely, in fact I would say almost a certainty, that Seiko assembles 100% of any particular movement in one factory. And which factory may change over time as demand and production needs change. Perhaps there is some overlap when one factory is ramping up while another ramps down.

None of this is new, and none of this is dependent on the OP's claim of a detail revelation from inside Seiko. The OP's detail maybe 100% fabricated. Even if so it effects nothing we already know. We just do not know the details.

At the end of the day, does it make any difference?

My "Made in Japan" SARB021 is the same watch today as it was 2 years ago when I bought it. Back then, I thought "Made in Japan" meant just that. Now I know that the movement may have only been assembled in Japan ... the watch may have been assembled outside Japan ... maybe not. The watch still looks and performs the same, and I like it just as much. I thought my MM300 was made entirely in-house, in a GS studio, when I bought it 3 years ago. Now I know that even GS's are not 100% in-house, and the MM300 may not be made in a GS studio. That changes nothing to me about the watch, and it is still an iconic Asian diver.



nicholas.d said:


> Thank you for believing what I've said so far....
> As you see my mail is not a fake...
> 
> Thank you for confirming everything I said so far ....
> ...


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

While you didn't prove what you claim about Japan regulations ..
You insist there are some(where)...
Until you prove it 
You are just being wilful...

Talk is cheap 

My proof is Seiko's mail 
You can claim it's a fake .
Or that they are not being honest 

.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Nick, are are seriously sitting there waiting for me, or anyone for that matter, to provide you with "proof"? You can't really think I, or anyone, cares in the slightest what you believe or not, do you? This is an open board, of adults, all with the wherewithal to verify anything they wish to their own satisfaction. I appreciate what others share here, as on any open board like this; if I am interested enough, I will research myself to my own satisfaction, and form my own POV. It has never entered my thinking to demand, on any board, that anyone prove anything to me. Why would they care? They don't work for me, or have any obligation or interest in what I think.

And I've got to ask, just what did you "prove"? That a Seiko made for sale in the JDM was labeled "Made in Japan", and Seiko confirmed that that complies with Japanese regs regarding what that county allows a watch manufacturer to put on the face or case for a watch for sale in the JDM? Don't we all know that already? Isn't that confirmed by what's printed in the same watch, but intended for the US market, about the mvt being assembled in Japan"? And don't you know, by your own research, that Japan allows a movement to be labeled "Made in Japan", if intended for sale in Japan, as long as a defined portion of the final assembly is actually performed in Japan? Just as the Swiss do, BTW. Just as the US regs state that "assembled in" means where the final assembly of the movement takes place?

I'm not sure what your point is any longer. Are you upset because a JDM Seiko you bought marked "Made in Japan" may have been assembled (i.e. cased) in Malaysia, from a movement partially assembled in China, with final assembly in Japan, from parts of which some may have been outsourced? Or is it that you paid more for an SKX007J, thinking it was made by Japanese people in Japan, and therefor of higher quality than the same watch with a "K" at the end of the serial number, because those are made by Chinese or Malaysians?



nicholas.d said:


> While you didn't prove what you claim about Japan regulations ..
> You insist there are some(where)...
> Until you prove it
> You are just being wilful...
> ...


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

Yep, this thread has lost it's meaning. Any company, no matter what they do, will present their product in the best light possible within the confines of the law. If Japanese law permits them to operate as they are and label it Japanese made, you bet they will. Exactly the same as Swiss watches, who also sources Asian materials. 

Compare it to cooking a recipe that calls for chicken stock. When can you say your meal was made from scratch? If you used canned chicken stock? Do you have to raise, kill, and pluck your own chicken? The vegetables too? If we look at watches, should we worry about the actual person handling the watch? Do they have to be Japanese? 

The quality of their watches is either there or not, whatever country it was performed in. The labelling conforms to whatever laws are out there. What else do we need to know?


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

"Made in Japan" and "Swiss Made" means whatever the buyer is willing to believe, and that's about it.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Sum up: People pissed that a watch they thought made in Japan maybe wasn't


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## AAMC (May 25, 2011)

cold_beer839 said:


> "Made in Japan" and "Swiss Made" means whatever the buyer is willing to believe, and that's about it.


The "Swiss Made" label is regulated by law since long time ago (more than 40 years). Due to pressure from major watch brands/groups new "tight" rules were approved in 2013 and must be implemented after a "transition" period.

http://www.fhs.ch/eng/strengthening.html


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## Horologic (Apr 26, 2012)

jayhall0315 said:


> SKX007 K = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Malaysian Technicians
> SKX007 J = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians (which allows the J version to be labeled as Made in Japan)


Amazing post. One of the best ever on F21. Interesting to know there is an actual difference in the production line between a K and J.


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## Horologic (Apr 26, 2012)

Jcp311 said:


> I might be the only one here who's had this experience, but J always beats K under the loupe. I've sent back numerous k versions to amazon for fit and finish issues. This has yet to be the case with the J models I have.


I know they used to actually print malaysia on the SKX007 dials. I never believed a $200 watch was actually made in Japan. But I think a lot of people thought there were no differences. But learning the J models have a Japanese QA inspector gives me a good feeling. My SKX007J was flawless. No misaligned hands or chapter rings or anything. Does anyone remember that character Papi ? And all the problems he had with his watches ? Black specs and stuff ? I think he kept buying K models. I wouldn't doubt if the Malaysian QA inspectors are less stringent.


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## nicholas.d (Jun 30, 2013)

Sean779 said:


> Sum up: People pissed that a watch they thought made in Japan maybe wasn't


Yes !! I agree 
But that is for people who spent lots of dollars and had high expectations ...

Not for a 200 dollar watch....

Seiko low end watches is 100% vfm 
No matter where it's made


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Since importation rules were brought up, I've been wondering about Made in Germany watches. In Germany, there are no regulations for that label so brands like Stowa, Damasko or Sinn can put a Swiss movement (e.g. ETA 2824) into a German case and assemble it in Germany, and call it Made in Germany. How are Sinn's ADs in America able to import the watches though? Wouldn't their watches fail to abide by US's rules of origin?


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Citizen V said:


> Since importation rules were brought up, I've been wondering about Made in Germany watches. In Germany, there are no regulations for that label so brands like Stowa, Damasko or Sinn can put a Swiss movement (e.g. ETA 2824) into a German case and assemble it in Germany, and call it Made in Germany. How are Sinn's ADs in America able to import the watches though? Wouldn't their watches fail to abide by US's rules of origin?


I'm not a lawyer or versed in this area, so this is just my take reading some of the regs. They can't say it's a "Swiss Made" watch if Sinn does a certain level of work on the movement in Germany, and cases the watch in Germany. They could, it seems, say the movement is Swiss, depending on the country it's intended for sale in regs, if the final assembly and inspection of the movement is done in Switzerland, and then cased in Germany.

The US regs seem to say that the watch must state on the face and case back where the final assembly of the movement takes place. That seems to be the key rule on origin on a watch that is legally imported into the US for sale in the US.

I don't know anything about Sinn watches, except that they are great watches, and perhaps someday .... Well enough day dreaming. I suspect Sinn is doing the final assembly of the movement (which could be perhaps just installing plates with their logo), inspecting and adjusting, and casing their watches, in their factory in Germany. If so, then it seems consistent with US import regs that they can say "Made in Germany" on their watch exteriors.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

AAMC said:


> The "Swiss Made" label is regulated by law since long time ago (more than 40 years). Due to pressure from major watch brands/groups new "tight" rules were approved in 2013 and must be implemented after a "transition" period.
> 
> FH - The criteria for strengthening the Swiss made label


Out of pure curiosity I have read through some of these regs for Japan and the USA, and my take on this it that there's a reason lawyers can specialize in import\export, and make a lot of money in the process: it's very confusing.

For one thing, there are specific regs for different types of products. That is compounded by special arrangements between countries based on trade agreements, like NAFTA. These regional agreements exist all over the world. And trade agreements in one part of the world that do not formally or directly involve, for example, the USA, may indirectly do so if the final country down stream that imports something into the US is part of a US trade agreement. And then there are unique trade agreements between certain countries, over and above regional trade agreements. Some of these are on specific industries or products, where it is beneficial for both countries to make such arrangement. And finally, a country may make regs for certain industries they wish to protect. For example, if a Japanese company imports a part into Japan from certain Asian countries that are part of a regional trade agreement, and there is no change in ownership (i.e. the Japanese company owned the factory that made the part), it is not subject to import tariffs. Is that part therefor not considered to be imported? Does this apply to assemblies, like partially assembled watch movements?

I think what compounds all that for watches is that we can buy watches over the internet from anywhere in the world. Those watches are labeled according to whatever import requirements exist for the country for which the seller resides in. Or ships from: not all sellers ship from their own country. My Seiko SKX171 has no country of origin, or manufacture, or assembly. Seiko could not be legally import this watch into the US for sale in the US. But I can buy it directly rom Creation in Hong Kong. And perhaps an internet reseller in NYC can buy a box of these from someone in the Philippines, where Seiko sells this version of the SKX, and sell them on Ebay,


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## lethaltoes (Mar 5, 2013)

jayhall0315 said:


> Grand Seiko
> 
> Almost all the Grand Seikos are made from Japanese or Malaysia parts, although some of the quartz movements are made in Malaysia. They are all assembled in Japan by Japanese technicians. Most are hand assembled. The models which receive the most attention are the Hi-Beat models and next are the Spring Drive models.


Watches by SJX: EXPLAINED: Seiko 9F Quartz Movements - Definitive Proof That High-End Quartz Exists

All grand seikos are hand assembled atelier style.

There are 2 distinct and separate facilities in different locations producing the said mechanical hi beat movements and the spring drive movements respectively. Interesting then that there should be a hierarchy in terms of attention given. Please note that that the spring drive movements encompass the more complex variants in the grand seiko and credor lineup.

Cheers!


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Horologic said:


> Amazing post. One of the best ever on F21. Interesting to know there is an actual difference in the production line between a K and J.


According the OP, the difference is the technician who is supervising the assembly line, but not the assembly line itself, or assembly line workers. I wonder just how many assembly line workers there are for watches that are largely made by robots?

From your other post on this topic, it sounds like you believe that as soon as the Japanese technician(s) punch out, and the Malaysian or Chinese or whatever technician punches in, the robots start slacking off? Maybe the "K" versions are only made on the 3rd shift, or the day after big holidays when everyone's hung over?

Perhaps the OP is correct. But from what I do know about how Japanese owned and run factories in Asia operate, I find it highly doubtful that all shifts and all assembly lines are not run by the same team of supervisors and managers, consisting of locals and some Japanese nationals, and adhere to the same protocols, use the same product tolerances, inspections, etc.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

nepatriot said:


> I'm not a lawyer or versed in this area, so this is just my take reading some of the regs. They can't say it's a "Swiss Made" watch if Sinn does a certain level of work on the movement in Germany, and cases the watch in Germany. They could, it seems, say the movement is Swiss, depending on the country it's intended for sale in regs, if the final assembly and inspection of the movement is done in Switzerland, and then cased in Germany.
> 
> The US regs seem to say that the watch must state on the face and case back where the final assembly of the movement takes place. That seems to be the key rule on origin on a watch that is legally imported into the US for sale in the US.
> 
> I don't know anything about Sinn watches, except that they are great watches, and perhaps someday .... Well enough day dreaming. I suspect Sinn is doing the final assembly of the movement (which could be perhaps just installing plates with their logo), inspecting and adjusting, and casing their watches, in their factory in Germany. If so, then it seems consistent with US import regs that they can say "Made in Germany" on their watch exteriors.


Ah, I overlooked the easy explanation i.e. they are assembling the movement in Germany. I've always assumed they simply bought them from ETA fully assembled to their specifications and dropped them into their cases. It seems that would be the cheapest way, but I guess if they want to be able to sell these as "made in Germany" interationally they must buy ebauches (which is unlikely since ETA stopped the sale of these) or disassemble and reassemble the assembled movements.


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## dberg (Jan 7, 2014)

I make full disclosure -- I have not read all of this, but I thought it might be relevant to add the following -- which I have also posted on a thread relating to the SDGZ013.

I just e-mailed Seiko at Morioka Seiko Instruments about the manufacturing of the Brightz and the current limited edition Ananta models. Specifically, I was curious about where they are made and whether go through the same manufacturing process and are finished in the same manner. This is what I received in response:

"Thank you for your inquiry about Anantas (limited edition pieces) and the Brightz models. The mechanical watches of those models are all manufactured at not Shizukuisi facility but our other plant, Ninohe Seiki and all assembled by hand. The Ananta SRQ017 and the Brightz SDGGZ013 are also manufactured there by hand. Thank you."

I followed up with a question about whether either or both models receive any hand finishing or polishing, and whether the titanium SDGZ013 can be refinished by Seiko in the future, if necessary, but have not heard back.

Thought this might be of interest.

Best,


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## jpnyc (Nov 23, 2014)

A random thought:

Companies would have absolutely no self-interested reason to bend and obfuscate country of manufacture labeling requirements if consumers did not worry about such a completely meaningless thing as what the country of manufacturing label states. Would you refuse a gifted Patek identical under the microscope to any other if it said 'Made in China' on the dial?

It's sort of like how people pay $6 a bottle for water from a certain mystical spring in France for years and tout it as the greatest thing in the world until they find out it really come straight from a NYC tap.


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## nilfire77 (Aug 30, 2008)

adi4 said:


> Agreed. If you think Seiko's markings are deceptive, you should really ignore most of the watch market in general. And the clothing market. And the car market... You get the point.
> 
> If I'm buying shoes for $100, I'm not under the impression it was hand sewn in an Italian workshop. I am very well aware that robots and automated processes were involved in making it and I am just fine with that. If I want a hand-sewn pair of really good quality shoes, I'll cough up the $1000+ necessary for Edward Green's or Saint Crispin's.
> 
> ...


Just like this?


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## Yannarelly (Sep 24, 2013)

The robot who made my skx007k did a hell of a job. Kudos!


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## JohnnyBaldJunior (Oct 9, 2011)

Yannarelly said:


> The robot who made my skx007k did a hell of a job. Kudos!


Clever little fella!


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## sandmountainslim (Jul 15, 2011)

My quartz Pulsar says "Movement Japan" on the caseback. Does that mean the quartz movement was actually produced in Japan and sent to China or Malaysia or does it just mean a Japanese supervisor watched them make the movement??


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## krayzie (Apr 21, 2007)

jayhall0315 said:


> MarineMaster
> 
> SBDX001 (MarineMaster 300m) - Raw Parts mainly from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, RA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan (bet this will surprise many as the 8L35 in this watch is robot assembled)


I see nobody has posted this decade old video again yet on this thread. Goto 2:36 to 3:00 dude is putting together a 8L35A (maybe it was just servicing lol):






How things have changed, from Seiya's site:

*NOTE:
*The chapter ring and index & bezel index and face index not being aligned perfectly.
In general, Seiko's screw down crowns are not smooth as Swiss manufactures'.


Just got a SBDX001 MM300 in a trade and it was made in Aug 2011. Thank goodness the chapter ring is aligned perfectly with the bezel markers, and the vented strap buckle still reads Japan-Z (you don't see that anymore on the 300m Tuna strap buckle for example, used to read Japan-A from the 2004 SBBN007 one I had). My 2013 SBDW005 Landmaster Kinetic has no Japan marking on the bracelet clasp, same with the MM300 bracelet clasp.

And seriously the Grand Seiko watches no longer come with timing records on the certificate (my SBGR001 GS Auto was made in July 2008 and didn't come with it, but at least the bracelet clasp still reads Japan-A) should be a tell tale sign that something was up. I emailed Seiko Japan asking why and they couldn't answer the question, just ensuring me the quality remains the same. I have a feeling it was because GS was going international.

Anyway I still have no love for modern Swiss timepieces anymore (thanks for burning me bad Swatch Group). Seiko is still my fav, all the way back to 1986 when my dad shopped with me for the 200m Auto Diver (SKX007?).


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

I'd have some concerns if the dial said made by Martians. As it is, they're made by humans. I'm ok with that.


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## metalgear (Dec 10, 2013)

JohnnyBaldJunior said:


> Clever little fella!
> 
> View attachment 2578578


that's a great little seiko robot. where can i get one


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## JohnnyBaldJunior (Oct 9, 2011)

metalgear said:


> that's a great little seiko robot. where can i get one


Haha...no idea, sorry...I shamelessly 'borrowed' it from Google images when they were talking about Seiko robots...

....edit...found it again on etsy:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/75754450/steampunk-robot-necklace-tiny-vintage?


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## CaptCaper (Apr 23, 2008)

krayzie said:


> I see nobody has posted this decade old video again yet on this thread. Goto 2:36 to 3:00 dude is putting together a 8L35A (maybe it was just servicing lol):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your right about the crown in a way. I have a Mariner Luminox 6252 that the crown screws in so nice. On my Luminox 1842 it had to be counter clock turned while pressing and then clockwise to catch. Odd. Wasn't a cheap Luminox.. Bought it off ebay. the Mariner is more $$ and bought from Authorized Service center in RI. Just got a 007J this week from Skywatches. Crown needs to be pushed in firmly while turning. Must be a spring inside holding it out???? Eveything lined up thou so that's good. The Mariner is a nice watch...but my son has the Auto version and the date wheel is stuck on Sunday.. he's got to send it in. 
Here is a link to Mondaine building Luminox...interesting...


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## krayzie (Apr 21, 2007)

Actually I just reread this thread today and come to the conclusion that something must have changed in the last 3 to 4 years in regards to certain aspects of manufacturing of Seiko watches. No doubt 8L35 and MM300 used to be manufactured exclusively in Morioka. I think with their expanded lineup they probably moved the older and established models to Malaysia, and coincidentally we start to see a slight decline in quality control.

BTW I just ordered a new MM300 rubber strap from Seiya and the buckle is no longer Made in Japan.


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## hoss (Nov 1, 2014)

Too bad that manufacturing left Japan. Just more lower quality junk being made in Malaysia and China by Seiko.


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## Ace McLoud (Jun 28, 2013)

sandmountainslim said:


> My quartz Pulsar says "Movement Japan" on the caseback. Does that mean the quartz movement was actually produced in Japan and sent to China or Malaysia or does it just mean a Japanese supervisor watched them make the movement??





hoss said:


> Too bad that manufacturing left Japan. Just more lower quality junk being made in Malaysia and China by Seiko.


Bro's, Do you even read this thread?


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

hoss said:


> Too bad that manufacturing left Japan. Just more lower quality junk being made in Malaysia and China by Seiko.


On an anti-Seiko rampage are we?

Why hang out on a Seiko forum if you hate Seiko so much?

Oh, that's right. You're a TROLL.


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## hoss (Nov 1, 2014)

Quite the contrary. I love Seiko. I just am very disappointed that their quality control has dropped significantly ever since they outsourced manufacturing outside of Japan. That's all. I feel that they should have better quality control in their assembly and manufacturing. There's proven fact here from everyone who owns a Seiko with one thing or another that's cosmetically wrong with it which proves that there is a problem with Seiko's manufacturing QC. I'm hoping that Seiko will take the proper measurements to fix these problems.
I've owned Seiko watches since 1976 and I like their watches very much. I just want them to upgrade their manufacturing standards to the Japanese standards that they have inside Japan.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

hoss said:


> Quite the contrary. I love Seiko. I just am very disappointed that their quality control has dropped significantly ever since they outsourced manufacturing outside of Japan. That's all. I feel that they should have better quality control in their assembly and manufacturing. There's proven fact here from everyone who owns a Seiko with one thing or another that's cosmetically wrong with it which proves that there is a problem with Seiko's manufacturing QC. I'm hoping that Seiko will take the proper measurements to fix these problems.
> I've owned Seiko watches since 1976 and I like their watches very much. I just want them to upgrade their manufacturing standards to the Japanese standards that they have inside Japan.


I think it's more what you believe than what really is.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

hoss said:


> Quite the contrary. I love Seiko. I just am very disappointed that their quality control has dropped significantly ever since they outsourced manufacturing outside of Japan. That's all. I feel that they should have better quality control in their assembly and manufacturing. There's proven fact here from everyone who owns a Seiko with one thing or another that's cosmetically wrong with it which proves that there is a problem with Seiko's manufacturing QC. I'm hoping that Seiko will take the proper measurements to fix these problems.
> I've owned Seiko watches since 1976 and I like their watches very much. I just want them to upgrade their manufacturing standards to the Japanese standards that they have inside Japan.


To be fair, I don't know whether you're wrong or right (QC), and you shouldn't be sure either.


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## JamesWWIII (Feb 25, 2015)

jalcon said:


> One thing is for sure. This thread will hurt Seikos sales, period.


Absolutely comical that someone might actually believe this.


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## DiveCon2007 (Jul 30, 2009)

Does anyone know where the new line of ProSpex divers, like the SRP637, falls in the OP criteria?

(RP - Raw Parts, MIM= Made in Malaysia, MIC = Made in China, MIJ = Made in Japan, RA = Robot Assembly, HA = Hybrid Assembly (robot and human), HuA - Human Assembly)

Just curious.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

SNZH53J1, Made in Japan version was only $4 more than the K1. 
Note "Made in Japan" on dial and back


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## ZimZimmer (Apr 29, 2015)

Great thread! Very interesting.


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## Aleksej (Oct 3, 2015)

I personaly think that as i assume i will never have money to go and visit Japan i would like to have something their made. I love Japan and i live far from Japan( Serbia) so i think there is no reason not to buy made in japan J version of the watch. Only problem is that here we only have K model but not J


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## Tickstart (Oct 30, 2015)

I for one trust chinese and malaysian workers! And my Seiko is unmatched in value for money.


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## leong33 (Aug 27, 2013)

Tickstart said:


> I for one trust chinese and malaysian workers! And my Seiko is unmatched in value for money.


I am glad you have trust in Malaysian workers. I am a Malaysian.

According to my watchmaker who is in his 60s who has been trained in Japan in his early years most of the vintage watches made in the 60s to early 80s from Japan are all made in Japan hence the quality are superior than the ones made now comparing to the same value i.e low to medium range like what this thread stated.

My guess for the 6309 reissue which is coming next year as compare to the original, its quality of the movement could work better than the new 6309 reissue based on 4R36. Hence I believe the value of the vintage 6309 may still hold as what some has question the value of the vintage.

That my 2 cent


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## johnMcKlane (May 14, 2017)

Should I bump this ??


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## kinglee (Jan 22, 2016)

No!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cezwho (Mar 25, 2018)

johnMcKlane said:


> Should I bump this ??


i always link this thread whenever the "same topic" is brought up...i was hoping to get a screenshot of the original email thread though...


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## overmind1632 (Feb 22, 2015)

This thread should be pinned lol

Answered more questions that I had

Thanks! 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## boci202A (Jul 27, 2018)

Interesting stuff.


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

Dupe


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

So here's the big question no one is asking. If Seiko has such an exemption that allows them to say it's made in Japan when it's not..... then why do they make any watches labeled "Made in Malaysia" at all, if they are actually allowed to put "Made in Japan" on everything? The SII Malaysia factory where they make low end mechanicals is a wholly-owned subsidiary that is overseen by Japanese Nationals. https://www.sii.co.jp/eco/eg/site-report/. And why do they only put "Mv't Japan" on all their quartz watches? If they are cased in SII China as thought, then wouldn't they also be stamping them as "Made in Japan?" Not to mention all the SII movements from HK and Singapore that they supply other watchmakers with!

There probably is some element of truth here, but how it is stated is completely misleading. While Japanese regulations do permit non-Japanese parts to be used in products labeled "MIJ" (possibly due to the subsidiary/Japanese nationals) the OP leaves out the part about how both the completed watch and movements must still be assembled within Japan. I don't think anyone here has ever been able to offer any official evidence to support any exemptions to that. And it wouldn't apply to Seiko's exported around the globe anyway. Either that, or the OP's source confused the trade agreement between Japan and other nations like Malaysia that allows them to _TREAT_ it the same as "Made in Japan" for tariff purposes.

More likely what we have are the sub-$1,000 "Made in Japan" and J1 watches with 4R25 and 6R15 movements sub-assembled in Malaysia, but topped off with a rotor and cased up in Japan with Chinese cases. K1's for worldwide export probably do use the same Malaysian movements, but finished in Malaysia and cased up in Maylasia or China. We know that most of the cheap Quartz movements come out of the same main SII plant as the Grand Seiko's. How much cost would it add for 4R, 6R final production and casing if everything is automated? 7S26 movement production ended last year, and the new Seiko 5's use 4R36s. They aren't sold in US officially, at least not yet. The US Presage Cocktail Times are the same as the J1 versions with 4R35's instead of the JDM's with 6R15's.


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## yvliew (Mar 9, 2015)

no matter where they are made or assembled, we can be sure that it's all in house by seiko down to the smallest screw. Isn't that something?


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## Lagania (Jan 21, 2020)

I love that you guys bumped this post is up from 2 years ago. Interesting read


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Dan Finch said:


> So here's the big question no one is asking. If Seiko has such an exemption that allows them to say it's made in Japan when it's not..... then why do they make any watches labeled "Made in Malaysia" at all, if they are actually allowed to put "Made in Japan" on everything?


Because different export markets are different.

US import rules require (required?) that the origin country of the MOVEMENT be indicated on the watch, regardless of where any other parts or assembly took place. Hence the special "Made in Malaysia" markings on the North America references like the SKX173 and SKX175, etc. Although it's been a while since I've seen anything like that so I'm thinking they may have gotten an exemption or the rules changed or something.



Dan Finch said:


> More likely what we have are the sub-$1,000 "Made in Japan" and J1 watches with 4R25 and 6R25 movements sub-assembled in Malaysia, but topped off with a rotor and cased up in Japan with Chinese cases. K1's for worldwide export probably do use the same Malaysian movements, but finished in Malaysia and cased up in Maylasia or China. We know that most of the cheap Quartz movements come out of the same main SII plant as the Grand Seiko's. How much cost would it add for 4R, 6R final production and casing if everything is automated? 7S26 movement production ended last year, and the new Seiko 5's use 4R36s. They aren't sold in US officially. The US Presage Cocktail Times are the same as the J1 versions with 4R35's instead of the JDM's with 6R35's.


It doesn't make much business sense to have facilities in two different countries doing final assembly for the same watch. It's not like cars where transportation costs and tariffs get nasty on finished goods.

The JDM Presage Cocktail Time models (SARY...) also have 4R35's just like the rest of the world. You're thinking of the OG SARB065 Cocktail Time which is a discontinued model (with a different dial too).


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

MrDisco99 said:


> Because different export markets are different.
> 
> US import rules require (required?) that the origin country of the MOVEMENT be indicated on the watch, regardless of where any other parts or assembly took place. Hence the special "Made in Malaysia" markings on the North America references like the SKX173 and SKX175, etc. Although it's been a while since I've seen anything like that so I'm thinking they may have gotten an exemption or the rules changed or something.


I'm not familiar with the specific rules relating to watches & watch movements, but I agree with your overall point, i.e., that the country of origin marking of internationally traded products is usually determined by the laws/rules of the importing country (i.e., the intended market for the manufacturer-exporter), even though the laws/rules in a given country can be inconsistent (as I posted about U.S. law in this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/how-...-japan-5083595-post50467539.html#post50467539). "Gray" market goods that are sold (mostly) legally outside their original intended market add confusion because they're usually not re-marked or re-labelled (except maybe on the box) to account for the new market.


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

yvliew said:


> no matter where they are made or assembled, we can be sure that it's all in house by seiko down to the smallest screw. Isn't that something?


I believe some seiko bracelets are Chinese made


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

Cobia said:


> I believe some seiko bracelets are Chinese made


Correct, pretty much all the lower end are, and Seiko bracelets will usually be stamped "China", but I think they are at least made by SII China. But, even if they aren't stamped at all, the manufacturer is allowed to put Chinese Bracelets on a watch stamped "Japan." Only way to know if the bracelet is MIJ for sure is if it is marked "Japan" on bracelet or clasp. Same for the Swiss, but they are not as forthcoming. For years even Omega used unmarked Chinese bracelets on Swiss watches, and all the lower end brands do. They can because bracelet/straps are excluded from the FHF origin rules that only apply to the watch head.


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

drunken-gmt-master said:


> I'm not familiar with the specific rules relating to watches & watch movements, but I agree with your overall point, i.e., that the country of origin marking of internationally traded products is usually determined by the laws/rules of the importing country (i.e., the intended market for the manufacturer-exporter), even though the laws/rules in a given country can be inconsistent (as I posted about U.S. law in this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/how-...-japan-5083595-post50467539.html#post50467539). "Gray" market goods that are sold (mostly) legally outside their original intended market add confusion because they're usually not re-marked or re-labelled (except maybe on the box) to account for the new market.


I read your other post and take your point Drunken Master. The US is Seiko's biggest market, and I'm sure they would prefer you buy a watch from a US AD, instead of sourcing a cheaper J1 Model from abroad. But, my question to you is that given the huge amount of product a major player like Seiko moves around the world, wouldn't they anticipate that some enterprising folks might import those worldwide J1 models into other counties like the US? So wouldn't they make them capable of meeting any country's origin requirements? They are considered "worldwide" models after all. US Customs doesn't care if a J1 model passes Russia's test, only if it passed their own test.

My second question to you is, does Seiko have any exclusive protection in place with the US Customs against unauthorized gray market importation into the US. I know that Rolex did once, but only because they lied about the nature of their business. They got stripped of that protection, so it seems Seiko would not qualify either.


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

MrDisco99 said:


> Because different export markets are different.
> 
> US import rules require (required?) that the origin country of the MOVEMENT be indicated on the watch, regardless of where any other parts or assembly took place. Hence the special "Made in Malaysia" markings on the North America references like the SKX173 and SKX175, etc. Although it's been a while since I've seen anything like that so I'm thinking they may have gotten an exemption or the rules changed or something.


So, are you saying that the watches rumored to be made in Malaysia but stamped as "Made in Japan" are only for watches sold in Japan and not for export worldwide?


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Dan Finch said:


> I read your other post and take your point Drunken Master. The US is Seiko's biggest market, and I'm sure they would prefer you buy a watch from a US AD, instead of sourcing a cheaper J1 Model from abroad. But, my question to you is that given the huge amount of product a major player like Seiko moves around the world, wouldn't they anticipate that some enterprising folks might import those worldwide J1 models into other counties like the US? So wouldn't they make them capable of meeting any country's origin requirements? They are considered "worldwide" models after all. US Customs doesn't care if a J1 model passes Russia's test, only if it passed their own test.
> 
> My second question to you is, does Seiko have any exclusive protection in place with the US Customs against unauthorized gray market importation into the US. I know that Rolex did once, but only because they lied about the nature of their business. They got stripped of that protection, so it seems Seiko would not qualify either.


I can only (try) to answer your 1st question (I have no idea what Seiko has done w/US Customs): I'm not in the watch business, or any manufacturing business, so I hope someone who w/more expertise can weigh in.

From Econ 101, I'm assuming that every manufacturer is trying to maximize profit, & while in a perfect world they would match branding, marking, & product mix w/each country/region to squeeze as much money as possible (think of airlines trying to fill every seat on a plane in the various classes), Seiko probably does what most big companies do & concentrates on their biggest markets. Fortunately for them, the US & Japan are their biggest markets & I think that since Japanese law is apparently very lax on what can be marked "Made In Japan" & US law has quite a bit of wiggle room on what must be marked "Japan", they're mostly covered for most of their sales when it comes to simple marking. I assume that Seiko, like other global companies, does exercise some control over their supply chain, which equals some control over the gray market, but that control is accomplished through contracts that they have with their distributors & retailers, which are not airtight in the real world. For example, if 1 of Seiko's Japanese dealers "goes rogue" & starts selling JDM merchandise over in the U.S., Seiko can sue them, which costs money & time, &/or just shut them off, but either way, some of that JDM product "leaks" outside Japan, just like if some random Japanese customer decides to resell their watch on the internet, & whatever extra profit that might be lost may not be that big a deal for Seiko (after all they did sell the watch to somebody). That said, Seiko does appear to be exercising greater control over their Grand Seiko supply chain as part of their new push into the U.S. market for that brand. Like Apple, Leica, & even Citizen, Seiko may have realized that 1 way to maximize control over your distribution/retail chain is to open your own darn stores.


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## MrDisco99 (Jul 5, 2018)

Dan Finch said:


> So, are you saying that the watches rumored to be made in Malaysia but stamped as "Made in Japan" are only for watches sold in Japan and not for export worldwide?


Of course not. The "J" models are international reference numbers and are thus obviously intended for export. Some markets got K's and some got J's. Of course both are pretty much available everywhere through grey market.

Most of the J models have Arabic day wheels which is interesting.


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## shmilda (Dec 20, 2018)

And I just find it interesting that my trustee SKX007 (K) has no visible country of origin mark. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## aalin13 (Apr 2, 2010)

Are there any J version of SKX and turtle that doesn't have Arabic as the second language on the day wheel? I feel like I've only ever seen Arabic. Surely that would tell us what the intended market is.

The JDM version of the turtle for example have a kanji day wheel, so it doesn't make sense that the J version with Arabic day wheel would have been intended for the Japanese market.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

shmilda said:


> And I just find it interesting that my trustee SKX007 (K) has no visible country of origin mark.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


Yes that is certainly interesting, indeed. Evidently, there are some markets with very loose customs laws! 
K models are't officially sold in the US though ADs. But similar ones sold here with that movement had rotors stamped Malaysia, with "Movement Malaysia" on caseback or exhibition crystal.


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

aalin13 said:


> Are there any J version of SKX and turtle that doesn't have Arabic as the second language on the day wheel? I feel like I've only ever seen Arabic. Surely that would tell us what the intended market is...


Chinese market(China, HongKong, Taiwan, Macau...) SEIKOs have their day wheel in Mandarin+English.


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## aalin13 (Apr 2, 2010)

Ed.YANG said:


> Chinese market(China, HongKong, Taiwan, Macau...) SEIKOs have their day wheel in Mandarin+English.


Interesting, the Australian market Turtle has the Chinese day wheel as well, but they don't say Made In Japan at all.


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## SEIKOSENSEI (Oct 5, 2019)

aalin13 said:


> Are there any J version of SKX and turtle that doesn't have Arabic as the second language on the day wheel? I feel like I've only ever seen Arabic. Surely that would tell us what the intended market is.
> 
> The JDM version of the turtle for example have a kanji day wheel, so it doesn't make sense that the J version with Arabic day wheel would have been intended for the Japanese market.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Correct, JDM watches typically have an entirely unique reference number with no alpha suffix. There do appear to be some watches with only 2 references, JDM and global J suffix reference. In these instances I believe they have no day wheel at all.


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

Excerpted Email from Seiko Japan Service Group, 10/28/02, in answer to the question, "What are the differences between SKX007J and SKX007K?'"

"The watch ref.#SKX007J and SKX007K are completely same watch model. So, SXXXKX means Seiko brand watch fixed in abroad. SXXXJX is fixed in Japan. Shortly, 'K' models are shipped out from Hong Kong and 'J' are from Japan.   Regarding the market to export, though majority of 'J' are exported to the middle east, it is not defined strictly. i.e. It is not strange if you would find 'J' in Europe or USA. 'K' are for everywhere. You would see them everywhere in the world.

With best regards, 
CS Dept. SEIKO Watch Corporation"

message 1109922720

My interpretation is that "fixing" means final assembly, so J and K models have final assembly in different places and are not for distribution to any specific country...
"The watch ref.#SKX007J and SKX007K are completely same watch model." is phrased clumsily, and when taken out of context may give people the wrong impression that they are made in the same place. However, when taken in its full context, it is clear that this is not the case. Another interesting thing is that originally K models were stamped KL, an abbreviation for Kuala Lumpur, the capital of Malaysia, to indicate where the K model movements were produced.


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## koolpep (Jul 14, 2008)

Dan Finch said:


> Excerpted Email from Seiko Japan Service Group, 10/28/02, in answer to the question, "What are the differences between SKX007J and SKX007K?'"
> 
> "The watch ref.#SKX007J and SKX007K are completely same watch model. So, SXXXKX means Seiko brand watch fixed in abroad. SXXXJX is fixed in Japan. Shortly, 'K' models are shipped out from Hong Kong and 'J' are from Japan.   Regarding the market to export, though majority of 'J' are exported to the middle east, it is not defined strictly. i.e. It is not strange if you would find 'J' in Europe or USA. 'K' are for everywhere. You would see them everywhere in the world.
> 
> ...


Car manufacturers are doing the same thing. BMW is now calling it Made by BMW.

They are producing cars in:
Germany
Austria
USA
Mexico
South Africa
India
China
Brazil

And they assemble cars (ckd) complete knock down and re assembly in:
Thailand
Russia
Egypt
Indonesia
Malaysia
India
Based on tax laws. Sometimes importing a fully assembled car invokes 100% tax on them....

For watches I have no problem taking a watch that was assembled in another country than Japan if the quality control and processes are as stringent as at the mothership.


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

*The Debunking of an Urban Watch Myth.
By Dan Finch, copyright 2020*

*THE MYTH:* _*"According to Japanese law, a watch which is manufactured overseas in a Japanese owned (or contracted) factory to Japanese quality control standards under Japanese supervision by a Japanese owned firm may be labeled "Made in Japan".*_

*REALITY:* 1. Japanese and US regulations only require that a watch's movement be assembled in Japan for a watch to be stamped "Made in Japan." Parts can be from anywhere. Seiko also does final assembly in Japan for watches marked "Made in Japan, but this is voluntary. For watches marked "Mov't Japan", final assembly is in China, typically on lower end watches like Seiko 5.
2. Any foreign movement or final assembly is done in their subsidiaries but these are never marked "Made in Japan."
3. Any foreign parts manufacturing is mostly done in their subsidiaries but these are never marked "Made in Japan", with the possible exception of dials or rotors.
4. Any foreign cases or bracelets are mostly done in their subsidiaries, but marked inside with the actual country where they are made, i.e. "China."

*If you would prefer to avoid all the tedious debunking and cut to the chase, just click here for my summary on where Seiko's are actually made.*

The rumored law, or a similar version, has been floating around in online posts for at least a decade, and did not originate with this thread. But, no one has ever been able to offer any official proof. It's often used to support the false premise that watches produced _entirely_ outside of Japan may be legally stamped with "MIJ". (But, the legal requirements may be less than you might think, which is why Seiko doesn't want you to know all the details.) I cannot find such a law in any customs, trade or consumer protection laws. Nor in any Trade Association (JCWA) publications. Those would be strictly voluntary anyway, and would only apply to the watch parts and possibly final assembly, both of which have no legal requirements. The only actual legal requirement for watch origin marks is that watch movements must be assembled in Japan. The dial and case markings only refer to the movement for Japanese and US Law.

So, my first impression was that this oversimplification masquerading as a "Law" sounds more like something a dealer might come up with to more easily explain to a customer unfamiliar with complex trade laws, why his watch marked "Made in Japan" is marked "China Case" inside. The next logical question is, how many Chinese parts are in this watch? Does the Movement marked "Japan" also contain China parts? (Sadly, the answer is yes!) As it turns out this hunch was not too far off&#8230;

I found out that this purported "Law" did not originate with a Seiko Employee as the OP states, but rather with an anonymous watch dealer and repairman in Japan, *as seen in this post five made years earlier.* Therefore, the entire credibility of the OP's purported detailed factory production details on this thread is called into question. I don't know whether the watchmaker made up this purported "law", just copied it, like this thread's OP, or perhaps misunderstood some watch press reports. Although the "quoted rule" may appear at first to be some official law, it starts to fall apart upon a closer examination of its' structure, which oddly combines Origin Mark Laws with Product Quality Standards. The two are entirely separate things, and one is not dependent upon the other. And the actual Japanese Law itself provides that a watch may contain any amount of foreign parts. (prior to 1997, the US required a minimum of 50% Japanese parts.) As explained before, movement assembly must always be performed in Japan. (Granted, some partial, sub-assembly of movements could be done elsewhere). Although, Seiko states that they also voluntarily perform final assembly of the watch in Japan, in observance of JCWA standards. But, regarding Quality Standards, the relevant JISC and JQA groups of Japan do not even have any standards for the "quality" of watches, only electric clocks, and refer instead to JWAC standards.

Most likely what we have here instead is a watchmaker's jump to conclusions without doing any research. He is familiar with the offshoring of the industry's production, and is no doubt familiar with some Japanese watch parts marked "Made in China and Malaysia." But, he is making the wrong assumptions in an effort to make sense of it. The additional requirements about "Japanese supervision and QC standards", he probably heard from Seiko, and incorrectly surmised that this what allows the parts and final assembly to occur offshore. In reality, this is only to alleviate customer's concerns about "not all parts being made in Japan." Seiko is somewhat responsible for fueling these suspicions by being vague about the details. The other possibility is that he assumes there must be a Japanese rule like the Swiss one which allows certain limited foreign made parts if they are certified as being equivalent in quality. But, again, if there is a similar Japanese rule it would be not be a law, only strictly voluntary and apply just to parts, since assembly is already specified.

The watchmaker goes to to make other mistaken statements like:

_"There are two types of Seiko mechanicals sold in Japan 1) Expensive made in Japan Seiko mechanicals 2) Parallel import (gray market) Seiko mechanicals made in China."
There are also some inexpensive mechanical models made in Japan, and marked as such.

"Orient is all manufactured offshore. In terms of cost, it's just not feasable to manufacture a watch this economically in Japan. Casio is unquestionably all manufactured off shore."
While many Orients have final assembly in China, the movements are at least partially assembled in Japan using automation to lower costs.

"A number of companies in France, Germany and Italy also have the right to label their watches "Made in Switzerland" under certain circumstances." 
The Swiss rules are quite strict on using "Swiss Made" so this is not possible, except possibly for a certain amount of specific certified parts.
_
This is an excellent example of how some people may be in the watchmaking industry, but not know the whole story.

So until someone can prove otherwise, I am going to file this one under Urban Watch Myths!


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

To sum things up, the key to understanding this, is the ASSEMBLY LOCATION. For Japanese watches, where the MOVEMENT IS ASSEMBLED and tested is what determines the origin for most import countries. *The OP doesn't take this into account, and is probably referring only to where the parts are manufactured. So he is half correct, in that "Made in Japan" may be stamped on watches that actually have little or no Japanese parts. *While in practice, these parts may be made in offshore subsidiaries to Japanese Quality standards, like Seiko, this is strictly voluntary and not legally required. Also not required are final assembly, casing up and QC in Japan. However, Seiko and other member companies of the JCWA, have stated that they voluntarily also perform this for all watches stamped "MIJ." Otherwise, they stamp "Mov't Japan" on watches not cased up in Japan. Typically, lower end Quartz and Mechanical watches.

So, origin requirements of the Japanese and the Swiss differ greatly. Besides movement assembly, the Swiss also require final assembly and testing to be done in Switzerland, and at least 60% of the parts to be made there. The Japanese have no such requirements.


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## cms1974 (Mar 22, 2014)

As long as they're not made in Wuhan...


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## composer (Jun 12, 2019)

Just heard about this thread due to @seikobusters on Instagram. Great thread OP.


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## hi_bri (Feb 3, 2016)

Since we have attracted the Seiko manufacturing experts, can some expert tell me what SWISS ACM on a Seiko means?










-Brian


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## carlowus (Oct 12, 2008)

hi_bri said:


> Since we have attracted the Seiko manufacturing experts, can some expert tell me what SWISS ACM on a Seiko means?
> 
> View attachment 16072797
> 
> ...


Personally I don't know but here is a link to an interesting post that might shed some light:









The Swiss Seiko – 5328A


I recently managed to pick up a 5328-0010 Seiko from Japan. This is a mechanical watch from the mid-80’s that has a basic layout with a seconds sub dial. The watch design is quite basic and it has a simple case and dial design. The crown is undecorated and the dial is easy to read using the...




www.thewatchsite.com


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## hi_bri (Feb 3, 2016)

carlowus said:


> Personally I don't know but here is a link to an interesting post that might shed some light:


Anthony Kable points out to some stealth Seiko's with Swiss Mechanical movements but I suspect SWISS ACM refers to Accessory and Case Manufacture as the above watch definitely houses a Japan produced quartz movement.

Seiko acquired Jean Lassale around this time and they were well known for their ultrathin movements so I believe they had some of their quartz movement cased in their Swiss made cases along with their bracelets/accessories and notated those watches with SWISS ACM on the caseback.

-Brian


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