# Sinn - a record of repeated failure



## Singslinger (Jan 22, 2009)

I know this is a Sinn forum and most of the posts are positive, full of praise for the company. I too was a Sinn fan once but not any more. I have suffered too many quality lapses when it comes to Sinn watches and I'd like to share these experiences with all of you. Incidentally, all purchases were brand new from an AD.

I first bought a Sinn 956 Rallye Chronograph some years ago (with beige dial and green power reserve). It kept awful time, gaining 2-3 mins a week and the power reserve indicator simply would not settle at the bottom when the watch was fully unwound. Instead, it would fall to around the 1/3 mark then stop there. Sent it in twice, the problem persisted so I sold the watch - after all, what's the use of a PR indicator that doesn't work properly?

Still, I perservered. My next Sinn was the U1000s - I liked the left-handed layout and the 60-min subdial. Paid US$4,000+ for it, only for the minutes hand to fall off the subdial within 3 months. I don't dive and don't do any heavy physical work, yet one day I woke up to find a floating minutes hand inside the dial. The AD was good enough to replace the watch with a new one, but 6 months later, the watch has stopped working. Since it can only be opened at the factory, it's now being sent back to Germany.

In between these calamities, I stubbornly refused to believe that German engineering could be so awful and ordered a white Sinn U1 Limited edition. One week after collecting and paying for it, I found it was losing about 3 minutes. Simple maths tells you that this works out to 12 minutes a month. The AD offered to repair it but by then, I'd had enough and returned it for a refund.

On top of all this, a close friend's U1000 also stopped working last year and was sent back to Germany for repair. It took 5+ months, which means he has effectively only a 19-month warranty instead of 24. They told him the rotor fell off inside the watch.

So there you have it folks. It doesn't make for pretty reading, but I think it's important that forum members hear the other side of the story. Defenders of the brand might say I'm just unlucky but to me, 3 strikes and you're out (4, if you count my friend's experience).

In my view, Sinn is not a good brand at all and is certainly undeserving of being placed on the same level as Omega or Longines or TAG. I'll not be buying any more Sinns. It's a shame because if nothing esle, the watches look good.


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

That's a shame, it seems that you have been unlucky (if they all fell apart we'd hear more of it I guess) but I can't blame you for throwing in the towel after you experiences. 

When I was stationed in Africa in the eighties for a particular 4 month tour we had 4 of the 7 Rolexes in our company 'go down', and these were the sports models (GMTs and Subs). Of course, Seiko wearing me and Casio wearing him all took the p*ss remorslessly out of the poor unfortunates. When we'd got back and settled down the guys all sent off their watches and they all came back some months later all fixed and working well. I thought at that stage that I'd never get one (the Rolex sports were popular because in the unit we were in we didn't have anything else to spend our money on except a watch and beer, literally). 

On every other holiday in the sun there were no probs, just this one particular tour.

Fast forward a few years and despite myself I bought an Explorer II and for ten years it permanantly sat on my wrist through some very tough (parachuting, climbing, deserts, diving, gardening, washing the car etc)and some very mundane jobs but only ever came off for it's only service, has never missed a beat and still (after the service - change crystal/stem/polish) looks brand new and keeps COSC time. 
So, well, there's no moral to the story really, just be grateful you didn't have a dozen guys taking the p*ss out of you on top of everything else!

Thanks for your honest view, 
Andy


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## Singslinger (Jan 22, 2009)

andy_s said:


> That's a shame, it seems that you have been unlucky (if they all fell apart we'd hear more of it I guess) but I can't blame you for throwing in the towel after you experiences.
> 
> When I was stationed in Africa in the eighties for a particular 4 month tour we had 4 of the 7 Rolexes in our company 'go down', and these were the sports models (GMTs and Subs). Of course, Seiko wearing me and Casio wearing him all took the p*ss remorslessly out of the poor unfortunates. When we'd got back and settled down the guys all sent off their watches and they all came back some months later all fixed and working well. I thought at that stage that I'd never get one (the Rolex sports were popular because in the unit we were in we didn't have anything else to spend our money on except a watch and beer, literally).
> 
> ...


Thanks Andy. As I said, I honestly believed that Sinn was a good brand - I liked the tough casing and high quality bracelets. But there comes a time when I have to hold my hands up and say enough is enough - I spent a lot of money on my failed Sinns (the cost of the U1000s is only US$1k less than the Rolex Explorer II, which in hindsight I should have bought) and with the loss I suffered on selling the Rallye chrono, adds up to a painful bill indeed.

And yes, I'm thankful that I didn't have to take any jibes from my buddies!:-!


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## Haf (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm sorry for your bad experiences, it must have been bad luck.

I think you should have kept the U1. A watch running 3 minutes slow in 1 week isn't that bad, it only proves that the watch needs to be regulated, a task that most watchmakers can acomplish with great results.

For what is worth my U2 keeps great time, but I have been only using it for a couple of months though.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Sorry about your bad luck.

It seema that your problems were with a faulty ETA movement.


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## Redsnake (Sep 12, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your experiences... I'm still in the middle of my own problems, but hope to have a better outcome than you did. Sounds like you went thru some expensive lessons...


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## AJ Brown (Nov 15, 2008)

Thank you for telling your story. I love my U1 but don't mind taking off the rose-colored glasses once in a while to hear real life experiences. Give it to me straight, Doc.


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## Singslinger (Jan 22, 2009)

Haf said:


> I'm sorry for your bad experiences, it must have been bad luck.
> 
> I think you should have kept the U1. A watch running 3 minutes slow in 1 week isn't that bad, it only proves that the watch needs to be regulated, a task that most watchmakers can acomplish with great results.
> 
> For what is worth my U2 keeps great time, but I have been only using it for a couple of months though.


Thanks for the kind words. I really wanted to keep the U1 White, but I gave it up because to me, it was unacceptable that a brand new watch, especially one that is a limited edition, needed to be sent back for repair, even if the repair was minor.


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## Horological-psychologist (Apr 26, 2006)

You were not meant to be a Sinn owner.

I had a nasty experience with Sinn a few years back. I had a U2 that had the GMT unaligned. To make a long story short, I had to send the watch to Germany *three times* before they decided to replace the movement. Because of this I'll never again own a U2. However, I owned a few U1s after that with no problems.

C. Soler


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## enthusiast (Jul 16, 2009)

SingSinger thanks for sharing your story. 

That has got to be more than simple "bad luck". I honestly wonder if there's a quality control problem at SINN. I'm not a SINN owner, and never have been actually, but someday hope to be.... anyway, I will just add that I was at a local jeweler who had a SINN 6000 traded in which needed repair because the time was wayyyy off (gaining or losing, I can't remember which). Jeweler wasn't an AD but he said he knew what was wrong and had ordered a part to fix it himself (no idea how that turned out).

Anyway, it just raised my eyebrows regarding the build quality / reliability of the watches across the SINN line. You guys think there's a general problem?

I mean, a movement needing regulation is one thing, but +/- 12 min a month & hands breaking off? Come on...I really want a SINN 6000 or 103 but I'm beginning to worry my chances of receiving a lemon are higher than I really know....or that the movement SINN uses simply isn't reliable at all.... opinions?


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

When things get sent through the post, there is no way of telling what rigors they have endured. 

All I can say is that I'm going on ten Sinns, some being of very early vintage (801A, 809A, 3xEZM-1, EZM-2, EZM-3 UX, U1 and a U1W about to arrive), and haven't had any such problems.

Modern Sinns use ETA movements, which are made by the tens of thousands and used by a wide spectrum of brands.


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## Mark McK (Aug 18, 2007)

I have 5 Sinns in my collection. 2 were purchased new from the US AD and 3 used (gently? I don't know.) I have had no problems with any of these watches. These will all keep time within 6 sec/24 hrs. My U2, that I purchased new, has seen some very heavy use and it has held up very well and still looks new. The outer AR coating on the crystal is spotted and this is not unusual for this watch and has been noted on other posts. It looks like you have had VERY "bad luck" with your Sinns. If I had a similar experience to yours, I would be put off with the brand also. I do have concerns about Sinn service. I have a U2, a 203 Arktis and an EZM 3 which all have stay dry technology(I'm a sucker for technology) and I am concerned about the prospects of eventually sending them off for servicing. I am hopeful that in the future these watches will be completely serviced here in the USA and that the quality and communication when in service improves. I wish you better luck in the future with your watch purchases. Mark


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

I own two Sinn's, and the only problems I have are these:
U2: Discolouration between crystal and case
Paint on bezel markers is gone
Bezel action not good
EZM3: Luminous bezel triangle fell out.

So, no movement problem (ETA) but some Sinn manufacture related ones


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## Jingo Lingo (Oct 22, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. If the same happened to me I would not buy another Sinn either. My only Sinn, a 556 had a problem with the rotor (it wouldn't wind automatically) and needed to be repaired. I've heard similar stories like this too. Perhaps the QC isn't the best.


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## por44 (Dec 21, 2007)

Over engineering and not having *complete* USA warranty/repair service can cause alot of issues.


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## Mr modnaR (Dec 12, 2009)

por44 said:


> Over engineering and not having *complete* USA warranty/repair service can cause alot of issues.


Are there USA watch companies around the same scale of Sinn that have a 'complete' warranty/repair service based in Germany?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'd genuinely like to know. I often see complaints about the length of time things take when watches are sent back to Germany, but how many German people have the same trouble sending watches back to the US, or UK?

Again, I'd like to emphasise that I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I think it'd be interesting to expose the truth of the balance of things.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Jingo Lingo said:


> Sorry to hear about your bad experience. If the same happened to me I would not buy another Sinn either. My only Sinn, a 556 had a problem with the rotor (it wouldn't wind automatically) and needed to be repaired. I've heard similar stories like this too. Perhaps the QC isn't the best.


Our C-17 Globemaster IIIs come from Boeing but use Pratt & Whitney engines. When an engine malfunctions from a manufacture defect we take it up with Pratt. If Pratt can't supply reliable engines we go their competition, General Electric.

With Sinn, they only inspect, install and adjust the movements. If the movement can't maintain accuracy or fails due to manufacture defects it falls on Sinn even though it is beyond their control. I guess Sinn could move to Selita movements if ETA can no longer supply a reliable and robust product, but would you buy a Selita powered Sinn?


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Mr modnaR said:


> Are there USA watch companies around the same scale of Sinn that have a 'complete' warranty/repair service based in Germany?
> 
> I'm not trying to start an argument, I'd genuinely like to know. I often see complaints about the length of time things take when watches are sent back to Germany, but how many German people have the same trouble sending watches back to the US, or UK?
> 
> Again, I'd like to emphasise that I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I think it'd be interesting to expose the truth of the balance of things.


That question would be better asked on the Kobold Forum. :think:


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## Mr modnaR (Dec 12, 2009)

Yes true, I'll go and do that! Thanks


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## pabboy (Jun 17, 2009)

Singslinger, I'm with you. I've had the seals fail on a 646 and 857. Both times RGM took care of it under warranty. These are minor annoyances unlike one ones you have encountered but of the 12 watches I own and wear regularly, the Sinns are the only ones I've ever had to repair.


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## Singslinger (Jan 22, 2009)

pabboy said:


> Singslinger, I'm with you. I've had the seals fail on a 646 and 857. Both times RGM took care of it under warranty. These are minor annoyances unlike one ones you have encountered but of the 12 watches I own and wear regularly, the Sinns are the only ones I've ever had to repair.


Yes, quality lapses like this, especially when the watch is brand new and only a few days or weeks old, take the shine off the purchase.

Even when my U1000s is returned after repair (the AD has assured me it should not take as long as 5-6 months but I'm not hopeful), I'll never be 100% comfortable with it because I'll be half-expecting it to fail at any time.


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## vollov (Dec 3, 2007)

Singslinger said:


> Yes, quality lapses like this, especially when the watch is brand new and only a few days or weeks old, take the shine off the purchase.
> 
> Even when my U1000s is returned after repair (the AD has assured me it should not take as long as 5-6 months but I'm not hopeful), I'll never be 100% comfortable with it because I'll be half-expecting it to fail at any time.


My experience with Sinn is also somewhat soured by now.

I am on my 2nd Sinn U1. The first U1, direct from the factory, had a loose caseback. It was so loose, it unscrewed on its own in a week. :roll: It also had the misaligned bezel issue.

Sinn was kind enough to do a straight swap for me and I have to say that customer service by Sinn is top notch.

I am about to send my second U1 (the replacement) back to Frankfurt for servicing. Why? Because one fine day, around slightly 1+ yr into owning the watch, it decided to stop working. And it stopped on a date change. Honestly, on a date change!? Just how fragile is the movement that Sinn uses?

Disappointed really. Again, I have to say customer service is great. I know when i send this back, i will get it back in good condition. But, regarding the watch...I don't wish to have to worry about the watch failing for one reason or another anymore.

If anything, I would recommend buying directly from an AD. The factory warranty is a bit iffy if trying to claim service from the AD. I know Hour Glass in Singapore refuses to support me.


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## Beau8 (May 24, 2008)

Sound like a spate of bad luck~Better luck with your new watches, cheers! ;-)


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## scm64 (May 12, 2007)

3 Sinns, zero problems. Sorry for you experience, but I don't think it is representative of the brand.


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## Boz (Sep 23, 2008)

Sorry about your luck.I have had two Sinns 103sa le and 756 diapal.Though I do not currently own one.I can say that my experience with Sinn has been a positive one.


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## tpdtom (Dec 27, 2007)

As a prospective buyer of a Sinn 757 UTC Tegimented this thread gives me chills. I think I've decided on a Damasko DC66 :roll:. I realize that these could be isolated occurences but when you consider the low volume of traffic on this site, and the number of complaints, you have to pay attention! Same thing occurs with high quality guns...Tom


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## ThirstyMonk (Feb 15, 2010)

sorry to hear about that. i cant believe you got a 3rd watch from them. 2nd i could understand, i did buy a 2nd saab, but will not be getting a 3rd.


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## hugel (Sep 8, 2009)

It depends how the procurement was defined. If there is a system problem then the airframe manufacturer will go to the engine supplier in any case.

The general principle is that use of a prime contractors means that the customer deals with one reponsible party whose job it is to liaise with all its subcontractors, so you don't have to. It means you don't get stuck in the middle of the mudslinging and blame war.

The current trend is for OEM airframers to reduce supplier-count and engage system-integrators that abstract this still further. This is part of a subject I am currently researching, so if you are involved in aviation and interested in this topic then please take a look at my research questionnaire here.

So.....to bring it back on topic, Sinn should present a uniform front and be responsible for the movements, bought-in parts, subcontractors (and some say the policy of authorised dealers) as providing a service worthy of a premium product |>

hugel



CMSgt Bo said:


> Our C-17 Globemaster IIIs come from Boeing but use Pratt & Whitney engines. When an engine malfunctions from a manufacture defect we take it up with Pratt. If Pratt can't supply reliable engines we go their competition, General Electric.


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## Todd5851 (Dec 12, 2006)

My experience has been somewhat mixed. The various models I have owned;

103st - no issues
203 Arktis- misaligned bezel, luminous triangle fell off
356 - no issues
656#1 - Loose rotor screw, repaired under warranty
656#2 - sold, buyer reported to me the crown stem pulled out after 1 month.
U1#1 - no issues
U1#2 - no issues

So, 3 out of 7 had some issues. Overall, my impression of the brand is not what it once was. I have since sold off everything, and only have two Omega's right now.


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## hugel (Sep 8, 2009)

I have a U1 on order....so I'm hoping no lost decals on the hands !

hugel


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Which hands?

;-):-d

I would be confident to get another Sinn.
I am pretty sure Damasco has the same occational problem. Like everybody else.
But Damasco make so few watches (I think) so relatevly fewer watches develop problems. I guess the % is the same, though.


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## Singslinger (Jan 22, 2009)

ThirstyMonk said:


> sorry to hear about that. i cant believe you got a 3rd watch from them. 2nd i could understand, i did buy a 2nd saab, but will not be getting a 3rd.


It was sheer stubbornness on my part - I simply refused to believe that German manufacturing could be that substandard. As I said in the original post, I paid a hefty price for my mistake. :rodekaart


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## StampeSV4 (Sep 2, 2009)

tpdtom said:


> As a prospective buyer of a Sinn 757 UTC Tegimented this thread gives me chills. I think I've decided on a Damasko DC66 :roll:. I realize that these could be isolated occurences but when you consider the low volume of traffic on this site, and the number of complaints, you have to pay attention! Same thing occurs with high quality guns...Tom


I've owned a 757 UTC for nearly 2 years and it has been perfect - best watch I ever owned. It's survived dozens of 225+mph runs at Bonneville and endured that corrosive salt environment for the equivalent of many months, when friends' watches all failed. I've banged it on aircraft cockpit sides and roll cages in cars, all without so much as a scratch. Add in it's aviation clock heritage styling - something which Damasko doesn't have - and it's no contest. Buy the Sinn if that's your first choice, otherwise every time you look at the Damasko it will always be a compromise and you will always wonder if you should have bought the Sinn...

Bottom line - I'd say make up your own mind and don't be put off by a few unlucky people - those few with problems must represent a mimiscule % of Sinn production and it would be interesting to see what that same % is for other manufacturers.

Regards

Jon'.


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## hugel (Sep 8, 2009)

"Buy the Sinn if that's your first choice, otherwise every time you look at the Damasko it will always be a compromise and you will always wonder if you should have bought the Sinn..."

I have had an almost identical situation which I summarise as: "I'd sleep with Betty, but I'd always be thinking of Wilma". Get the Sinn.

hugel


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## Dasser (Jan 23, 2008)

My 103 has been great, so very sorry reading your experiences. However, with Sinn not being on a par with similarly priced Omegas, Tags etc i completely agree. For a £1400 watch it feels a bit cheap! The bezel is not ratcheted on my watch so just uses friction (awful, keeps turning if under a sleeve) and the crown feels rough and horrible when winding and screwing back to position.

It feels solid otherwise, but this should be half the price, considering i have a Tissot with the same movement that only set me back £600 and feels far far superior in terms of quality. My first and definitely last Sinn i'm afraid.

Oh, in terms of servicing however, every watch apart from a Rolex came back damaged for me (2 Tissots, a Tag and now very recently a Raymond Weil Freelancer). So the Swiss can get it wrong as well i guess!


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## hugel (Sep 8, 2009)

Tell me more about the Freelancer, I almost bought the one with the yellow hand the other day....

hugel



Dasser said:


> Oh, in terms of servicing however, every watch apart from a Rolex came back damaged for me (2 Tissots, a Tag and now very recently a Raymond Weil Freelancer). So the Swiss can get it wrong as well i guess!


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## vipereaper30 (Sep 12, 2009)

I recently purchased a Sinn 6100 from and AD in Germany and had a quality issue myself. When admiring the face (quite impressive!) on the first day sporting the watch, I noticed what looked like a slight imperfection at the edge of the crystal. :rodekaart Upon closer inspection it looked like it was a small piece of fiber or hair resting at the edge of the case just underneath the sapphire! Sure enough, a few days later, the particle came loose and rested itself just below the 55. 
Since the watch was purchased in Germany I had a bit of a dilemma as to how to fix the issue. A few days ago, I had a local high-end watch dealer take a look and take the hair out for $75, but I'm still a bit irritated about the whole issue.
While my problem wasn't a severe as some of those posted here, it makes me question the quality of the Sinn brand. As I'm fairly new to watch collecting (9 Breitlings, 1 Sinn, 1 Chronoswiss), would most of you consider this a big (if not just irritating) issue? I've never had any quality problems with my other watches but as you can see I don't have a lot of breadth in my collection.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

I have/had the Silvering peel of the dial on my one year old JLC Day Moon. In Switzerland now for repair.

A hair? PFFFTTT! Nothing! Easily fixed!

And it shows that a Human assembled your watch, not a Robot!


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Janne said:


> A hair? PFFFTTT! Nothing! Easily fixed!
> 
> And it shows that a Human assembled your watch, not a Robot!


Unless it was a Robot hair, they're the worst. :-d


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## energyarts (Mar 25, 2008)

Bad luck???

*First*. Sinn UX = Discoloration <|

*Second*. Sinn U2 = Somehow god knows salt (sea water) got through the case back and bezel and entered the watch and made it to the dial. <|

*Third*. Sinn U2 = I think they meant to put the WR to 15" inches and not 2000m because water got inside the watch. <|

*Fourth*. Sinn U2-S = I didn't have that watch for that long but it got stolen on the way to the buyer. Now that's what I call a bad luck, but the other 3 are clearly terrible QC by Sinn.

From the above 2 Sinn U2's watches the crown was never compromised, so I will give them credit for that, but then again I have heard other members having their crowns falling off.

Would I buy another Sinn? Absolutely not. Its a shame because I do find them appealing.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

1: The yellowing oil in the old UX - well, it was new tech, and nobody will test new tech for a bunch of years before releasing. They replace the dial, hands and oil for feee, even when the warranty has run out.
2: Sounds to be extremely rare, maybe the sealing ring was pinched or even missing?
3: Same as 2?


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## jjmcack (Feb 28, 2010)

off topic but I use to work for McDonnell Douglas on the C-17 - cool to hear them mentioned - I moved on to F-18 and then Future Combat Systems. I definately want a Sinn!


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Upon re-reading, I realise you had 2 U 2's that leaked.

As this is the first time I have heard of a leaking U, I find it amazing an owner experienced 2.

What did Sinn say and do?


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## energyarts (Mar 25, 2008)

Janne said:


> Upon re-reading, I realise you had 2 U 2's that leaked.
> 
> As this is the first time I have heard of a leaking U, I find it amazing an owner experienced 2.
> 
> What did Sinn say and do?


I did find it amazing too, that's why I went with a Sinn U2 again and again until I gave up. They fixed one, and replaced the other one with a brand new one. They were nice about it and tried to make the issue go away by replacing one of them with a new one. I don't believe I did get a straight answer to why they failed, but they blamed it on faulty gaskets. I believe they forgot to put the viton gaskets in one of them when it left the factory. 
If they made a Sinn U2 just like any normal 1000m-2000m diver I would buy another one again, I just don't believe the over-engineered marketing BS*.


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## Evinsky (Nov 4, 2009)

Anyone have problems with an 856? I just purchased one and have just now discovered this thread and am curious about it's track record as I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere here.
Thanks,
E.


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## TimeOnTarget (Feb 11, 2006)

I owned one, and I had no problems with at all.


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## scm64 (May 12, 2007)

Evinsky said:


> Anyone have problems with an 856? I just purchased one and have just now discovered this thread and am curious about it's track record as I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere here.
> Thanks,
> E.


No issues at all with any of mine.


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## Watchyman (Mar 4, 2010)

It sounds like really bad QC at Sinn not bad luck, i wouldn't expect this from a watch as expensive.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Watchyman said:


> It sounds like really bad QC at Sinn not bad luck, i wouldn't expect this from a watch as expensive.


I don't know that they QC every watch they produce. Most manufactures take a sampling to check consistency, if one item fails they check the enire lot leading up to that failure. I just got back from a two day lean logistics and continual product improvement (Kaizen) class at the Porsche Akademie in Stuttgart and was surprised to find Porsche only road test every tenth car. I would have thought at that price point every car would have been road tested.


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## Redsnake (Sep 12, 2007)

CMSgt Bo said:


> I don't know that they QC every watch they produce. Most manufactures take a sampling to check consistency, if one item fails they check the enire lot leading up to that failure. I just got back from a two day lean logistics and continual product improvement (Kaizen) class at the Porsche Akademie in Stuttgart and was surprised to find Porsche only road test every tenth car. I would have thought at that price point every car would have been road tested.


Pics of said Porches Please... :-!


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

not bad roadtesting every 10th car. Most manufacturers do not do that many!


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## polishammer (May 28, 2008)

CMSgt Bo said:


> I don't know that they QC every watch they produce. Most manufactures take a sampling to check consistency, if one item fails they check the enire lot leading up to that failure. I just got back from a two day lean logistics and continual product improvement (Kaizen) class at the Porsche Akademie in Stuttgart and was surprised to find Porsche only road test every tenth car. I would have thought at that price point every car would have been road tested.


The principles of Kaizen is to build in preventive measures into the process to avid potential problems at the final stage. Final inspection, or testing is not an option. The later in the process you find the defect, the most costly it becomes. If you take a look at the automotive assembly plant, you would be surprised how many quality checks are build in to the process. Now, a watch is much simpler device, but all components are verified for specifications. Of course, there is always a bad apple, but that's what warranty is for.

In my case, one out of my three Sinns gave me a problem. Sinn replaced it and life goes on. :-d


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## PDR (Sep 11, 2006)

I have been wearing my Sinn U2 constantly 24/7 for the last 3 years. No problems and still looks good. :-!
It gets knocked and bashed all the time..... no marks, dents or scratches. I thought about buying a Doxa as I am a big fan of Clive Cussler books but I reckon a Doxa would be wabied to hell by now!


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

PDR said:


> I have been wearing my Sinn U2 constantly 24/7 for the last 3 years. No problems and still looks good. :-!
> It gets knocked and bashed all the time..... no marks, dents or scratches. I thought about buying a Doxa as I am a big fan of Clive Cussler books but I reckon a Doxa would be wabied to hell by now!


I'm a huge Doxa fan as well (own 7) but you are right, that polished outer bezel is a scratch magnet.


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## Sunburst (May 23, 2010)

All of mine are doing fine (303 not in the photo is getting the service for the 1st time after almost 8 years). :-!


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## terrenceterrence (Nov 13, 2006)

anyone having any problem with their PVD coating?

looks like the coating under my watch is fading. would take some photos soon. it;s 6 months old, my 857s btw.

now it's spreading towards under the crown protector


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## watchfisher (Jul 24, 2008)

Doing a search for Sinn quality control, I landed on this thread.

It's interesting to hear both sides of the discussion, though I do favor the perfectionist side of the table. The more I spend on a watch, the fewer flaws I expect. To put that in perspective with regards to Sinn. . . . what do Sinn manufacture? Not the movement. They receive cases made to their spec (and in many instances, their case selection is shared with other manufacturers such as Damasko).

So Sinn's uniqueness is their technology, face design and hands. The assembly of the components should be straightforward beyond that.

Should be.

If Sinn cannot maintain adequate quality control, they have nobody but themselves to blame even being a German company. I have the unfortunate situation to point out three areas of concern on one of their expensive offerings. This, in itself is unsettling and in my opinion, unnecessary.

To be fair, I have owned a number of older and newer Sinn timepieces and do see the newer ones lacking the attention the older pieces had. However, the movements offered have been outstanding (ETA 2824-2, Valjoux 7750)


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

watchfisher said:


> Doing a search for Sinn quality control, I landed on this thread.
> 
> It's interesting to hear both sides of the discussion, though I do favor the perfectionist side of the table. The more I spend on a watch, the fewer flaws I expect. To put that in perspective with regards to Sinn. . . . what do Sinn manufacture? Not the movement. They receive cases made to their spec (and in many instances, their case selection is shared with other manufacturers such as Damasko).
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your personal experience.

Most Sinn cases recently have been made by SUG, which is majority owned by
Lothar Schmidt, the Sinn CEO. SUG may sell watch cases to watch companies
other than Sinn, but Damasko is not one of them. Konrad Damasko makes all
of his own cases in house. In any case it seems unlikely that Sinn pattern
cases are sold to other watch companies.

The SUG web presence seems to have disappeared. If the corporate name
does disappear, perhaps the "SUG" logo will no longer be applied, and then
disappear from Sinn cases when the inventory of marked cases runs out.

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## 403acmash (Mar 5, 2012)

Redsnake said:


> Pics of said Porches Please... :-!


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## watchfisher (Jul 24, 2008)

rationaltime said:


> Thank you for sharing your personal experience.
> 
> Most Sinn cases recently have been made by SUG, which is majority owned by
> Lothar Schmidt, the Sinn CEO. SUG may sell watch cases to watch companies
> ...


Perhaps I stand corrected then, in regards to the cases.

When comparing Damasko and some Sinn cases, I was led to believe the only difference was the contour of the lugs. I do know the treatment of the metal is different (Tegimented as one example), but the coarse dimensions for inner movements, thicknesses etc led me to believe these were shared.

I don't mean to pile on and further draw down Sinn's reputation. I very much appreciate their technology, the approach to the 'tool watch' (though many of their pieces are more elegant than the description 'tool'), value for purchase and robust build. I hope my recent experience is an anomaly and can be remedied soon.


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## tekong (Jan 25, 2013)

I owned quite a few sinn watches but all are pre-own. it have not faced any problem with them. To me it seem that the older watches has less problem and still keep prefect time.
In my opinion, "it seems that watches of a certain yr or batch has issues!


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Seeing that you had to resurrect a three year old thread to make your point tells me Sinn's QC has improved over the years.


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## Kurt Koerfgen (Feb 10, 2006)

watchfisher said:


> Doing a search for Sinn quality control, I landed on this thread.
> 
> It's interesting to hear both sides of the discussion, though I do favor the perfectionist side of the table. The more I spend on a watch, the fewer flaws I expect. To put that in perspective with regards to Sinn. . . . what do Sinn manufacture? Not the movement. They receive cases made to their spec (and in many instances, their case selection is shared with other manufacturers such as Damasko).
> 
> ...


You take Sinn to task regarding their quality control and make several general statements, but you leave the reader in the dark on what occasion Sinn quality control fell short and could have done better in your opinion. Are you by any chance referring to your Sinn 900 Flieger, where on close inspection you found a slight mismatch between the detailing of the upper and lower registers and where the de-humidifying capsule showed some blue spots?

Both my two 900 Fliegers have been perfect so far, but a few years back I did have some issues with my 142 St II's and 144 GMTs that needed to be addressed. I know that at least on one of these models assembly was outsourced to Switzerland, which goes to illustrate the problems of QC when outsourcing. (Just ask Boeing, who could tell you a long story about such dangers....)

Otherwise the reader needs to to assume that you just wanted to make some general statements - based on information that you gathered on the net - and tag it onto a 3-year old thread.
Knowing that in the past some members have demonstrated exaggerated notions how far quality control should go; making a nebulous statement like "favor the perfectionist side" doesn't leave the reader any smarter.

In fact, if you take a loupe with sufficient magnification you will find flaws on any complex piece of engineering, be that airplanes, homes, cars (which were said at one stage to leave the factory with at least 70 hidden defects), or mechanical watches.

Ultimately, the question is whether such defect affects the continued operation or whether such flaw is so patently obvious that it negatively affects the appearance of the item and the manufacturer's QC should have reasonably rectified it before the item left the factory.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## watchfisher (Jul 24, 2008)

Kurt Koerfgen said:


> You take Sinn to task regarding their quality control and make several general statements, but you leave the reader in the dark on what occasion Sinn quality control fell short and could have done better in your opinion. Are you by any chance referring to your Sinn 900 Flieger, where on close inspection you found a slight mismatch between the detailing of the upper and lower registers and where the de-humidifying capsule showed some blue spots?
> 
> Both my two 900 Fliegers have been perfect so far, but a few years back I did have some issues with my 142 St II's and 144 GMTs that needed to be addressed. I know that at least on one of these models assembly was outsourced to Switzerland, which goes to illustrate the problems of QC when outsourcing. (Just ask Boeing, who could tell you a long story about such dangers....)
> 
> ...


I agree with you that all things have some flaw to them, and perhaps I was quite firm in my critique. But I stand by it after spending $4000 on a watch in league with an Omega Speedmaster, many Breitlings, Damaskos, etc al. Yes, the note posted above was directly due to my recent (and unresolved) issue with my 900 Flieger, but can you tell me this is what a customer should expect from a premium watchmaker? Is this understandable behaviour when spending that amount of money? Don't we view our watches as precious and scan them with a loupe from time to time? I know many on these forums do, and I was asking if these details were normal.

I did resurrect this thread after doing a cursory search on Sinn quality control. It is not my intent to blindly bash the company, and I have noted that I had great products with my earlier Sinns. I have owned the EZM-1, an outstanding and iconic watch, but required an overhaul of the Lemania 5100 in Frankfurt at quite a cost. The EZM-3, is easily the unsung hero of the Sinn lineup, simple solid and clean - that watch offered no problems. The 156 Mil was bulletproof, but seemed to feel coarse at the crown, then completely fail. That didn't surprise me as I purchased it used, but after servicing in Frankfurt was 100% again. The Bundeswehr was my first Sinn, which drew me into the brand and I remain a fan. So hopefully things can be remedied with the recent watch.

Owning some recent Sinns (U-1, 857 UTC, now the 900 F), I do see a difference in attention to case finish and AR coating, but in the 857 and U-1, these are lower price point, working watches.

I do understand Sinn made their mark with tool watches, and small details, mismatches and imperfections do happen. They're considered 'normal' for tool watches and entry level watches. As the watch, its technology and cost ascend, I don't think I'm alone in expecting a bit more. A blue capsule and corrugated details on a new watch were already acknowledged by Sinn as flaws on a new watch.

It is up to the customer to stand up for the value vs cost they believe is appropriate. Again, I am not bashing the brand but I was searching for recent QC, brought me here and I thought I'd offer some (perhaps unsolicited) observations.


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