# Over wound...repair options



## 7Pines (Jun 28, 2007)

Any ideas of where to send this to repair it? Looks to be over-wound.
Thanks!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

I can't help with repair suggestions your side of the pond, but I can guarantee it's not over-wound.

[soapbox]
Overwinding is a myth, a wives' tale, a rumour without basis. Ok, that's maybe not absolutely accurate in a 100% gold-plated cast-iron sort of way, but in practical terms it is. It also happens to be a convenient excuse for dodgy repairmen when work comes back under guarantee ...

"Oh, you've over-wound it Sir - look, it's wound tight - and that's not covered I'm afraid"

Anything even remotely modern (and that pocket watch is modern in this sense) with manual wind is designed to be wound fully, until it won't wind any further, and to run from that point. If it doesn't then it's not "over-wound", it's faulty.

[/soapbox]

Now that's off my chest, it could be anything from a simple need for servicing to serious internal damage but any competent repairer who's willing to work on vintage pocket watches (not all are because they can be excessively time consuming after decades of abuse!) should be able to help.


----------



## Samantha (May 14, 2010)

Hi,
You can use this link to find a watchmaker: https://members.awci.com/AWCIWEB/AWCISearch/MemberSearch.aspx
Samantha


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> I can't help with repair suggestions your side of the pond, but I can guarantee it's not over-wound.
> 
> [soapbox]
> Overwinding is a myth, a wives' tale, a rumour without basis. Ok, that's maybe not absolutely accurate in a 100% gold-plated cast-iron sort of way, but in practical terms it is. It also happens to be a convenient excuse for dodgy repairmen when work comes back under guarantee ...
> ...


I have seen this response far too many times and must interject.
No one seems to address the condition of said watches prior to qualifying an overwound watch, that should be the first consideration, yes there are times that an in need of repair watch can be overwound.
The state of being "overwound" is self evident and definable and that definition should be upheld.
"this watch is overwound and in need of service to correct the problem causing it to be able to be overwound"
Consider this, if a watch is wound until it cannot be wound any further is that not self diagnosing that there is a problem that has caused this overwound state? 
Anyone stating that the problem is that it is overwound would of course be incorrect.


----------



## Molliedooker (Jul 23, 2014)

dirtvictim said:


> I have seen this response far too many times and must interject.
> No one seems to address the condition of said watches prior to qualifying an overwound watch, that should be the first consideration, yes there are times that an in need of repair watch can be overwound.
> The state of being "overwound" is self evident and definable and that definition should be upheld.
> "this watch is overwound and in need of service to correct the problem causing it to be able to be overwound"
> ...


No. The mainspring is fully wound and will not unwind due to malfunction in geartrain or such.
eg Picked up an Omega 471 movement 'overwound'.
Identified broken escape wheel pivot which after extracting enabled the mainspring to unwind.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Molliedooker said:


> No. The mainspring is fully wound and will not unwind due to malfunction in geartrain or such.


Exactly.

"Over" wound implies that it's been wound further than it's meant to be, which is impossible. It's correctly wound, but not running because of a fault.

Apart from the number of times I've heard so-called repairers using it as an excuse, the worst thing about the phrase is that it's almost always preceded by "Just", as in "It's just overwound" with the implication that it must be a simple fix.

"Just needs cleaning" is in the same category....


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi Joe,



Joe Horner said:


> ... as in "It's just overwound" with the implication that it must be a simple fix.


You'll never kill this sales promotion for wrecks.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

Usually just dirty gear train causing the watch not to release the power from the mainspring. "Hmmmm, perhaps is I wind it more it will run"

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> The state of being "overwound" is self evident and definable and that definition should be upheld.


Mainsprings can be in several states:

1 - fully wound
2 - unwound
3 - somewhere between 1 and 2
4 - broken

That's it. Most times a watch that is described as "overwound" is in a state where the torque required to run is greater than the torque supplied. It's usually just so dirty it won't run, but occasionally can also be damaged.

Overwound is not a state a mainspring is in...

Cheers, Al


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Come on guys there is a proper accepted definition of overwound. 
This is outside the "accepted" terminology that has been relegated to watchmaker repair terms but it is a legimitate term as defined. 
Just because some watchmakers choose not to apply the term does not mean it is not viable and applicable when referring to the state of a mainspring that has been wound to the point of no longer being able to wound any further, for that matter it could also apply to a hairspring. 
Accept it or not but don't pretend the term doesn't exist in the real world. It's all in how you qualify the term that makes it apply to watch repair and only opinion to suggest otherwise. 
Maybe I am more open minded but I accept the term knowing that it directs me to diagnosing a problem to be solved.

Many sources site similar definitions. 
From Miriam Webster: Definition of overwindoverwound play  \ˌō-vər-ˈwau̇nd\ _also_ overwinded; overwindingtransitive verb
: to wind (something) too tightly or too far : to tighten or coil (something) too much 

He _overwound_ the clock.


_overwinding_ the springs.


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi there,



dirtvictim said:


> ...From Miriam Webster: *Definition of overwind*...


Being Miriam Webster obviously doesn't prevent to write nonsense. She should first precisely give the definition of "too much", particularly for springs.

But in principle you're right: There is a definition of overwound: ebay-term for the German "kaputt". This includes many terms like broken, not workung, worn, beat-down, damaged, exhausted etc., and I'm not sure whether the English "kaput" is the same.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

I have been accused of being too literal, often by my wife, so to me you can not over wind a watch. It winds to its limit and works or you break it if you wind further, at which point it is broken.

I have a Bulova that was fully wound and was not working, a night on the hot radiator and it now ticks sweetly, clearly not 'overwound' just never serviced and all gummed up. (It will never get serviced, it is ugly from the 70's).

Now the pocket watch, get it serviced. Elgin, looks to be a simple movement a competent watchmaker will do it, parts may be awkward, ask around locally you will find one.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Roland Ranfft said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Being Miriam Webster obviously doesn't prevent to write nonsense. She should first precisely give the definition of "too much", particularly for springs.
> 
> ...


Miriam Webster dictionary is world renown and rarely disputed but they will correct terms or definitions if presented with facts. Springs, even springs in watches can lose their elasticity if forced beyond their predetermined tension whether due to mechanical or other outside forces as any watchmaker knows, giving the term overwound even more credence. Having already conceded that other forces may cause the problem, overwound still is a viable term.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

dirtvictim said:


> Springs, even springs in watches can lose their elasticity if forced beyond their predetermined tension [...] overwound still is a viable term.


No, it really isn't.

A properly specced spring, inside a barrel, with a recoiling click, simply _can't_ be wound beyond it's designed tension. ALL manual watches are designed to wind until you reach a definite stop. That may be the mainspring fully winding and binding in the centre, or it may be the operation of stop-work somewhere short of that point. Either way, "fully wound so it won't turn any more" is NOT "overwound" because it's not wound beyond (or "over") the point to which it's intended to be wound.

Think of it this way:

I have a manual wind Accurist that I wear occasionally. On days that I wear it, I wind it fully (until it won't turn any more) before setting the time and putting it on. If I wind it one day and it fails to run, I haven't wound it any differently to how I've wound it every other day.

So how can that day suddenly be "over wound" (ie: wound too far), when exactly the same amount of winding _wasn't_ over-winding all the previous times?

As for Merriam Webster, it's a dictionary. It's compiled by linguists. I really wouldn't trust it on technical details, any more than you should trust me on conjugation of verbs in French! Incidentally, they also list Unicorn but at least have the good grace to admit that they're mythical - probably the only thing they have in common with over-winding!


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> No, it really isn't.
> 
> A properly specced spring, inside a barrel, with a recoiling click, simply _can't_ be wound beyond it's designed tension. ALL manual watches are designed to wind until you reach a definite stop. That may be the mainspring fully winding and binding in the centre, or it may be the operation of stop-work somewhere short of that point. Either way, "fully wound so it won't turn any more" is NOT "overwound" because it's not wound beyond (or "over") the point to which it's intended to be wound.
> 
> ...


You are incorrect to apply qualifiers to the simple definition of overwound that is beyond the scope of the simple definition. This definition doesn't need technical details it just needs clarification on its face not delve into "conditions or repair" otherwise you would be required to list every possible scenario for repair of the overwind problem, those answers can be addressed in other definitions as needed. 
You are seriously arguing that MW dictionary isn't relatively accurate? Verbs in French what? That's silly.


----------



## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey! Verbs in French are not silly. Right that is that sorted.


----------



## Molliedooker (Jul 23, 2014)

I don’t know much about clocks as per MW but perhaps you can overwind a cuckoo clock or clocks that do not have the mainspring contained in the barrel .However not a watch mainspring.


----------



## Stuey63 (Sep 25, 2017)

There is no point in discussing semantics over the dictionary definition. Everyone knows what the simple term 'overwound' means in a literal sense. 

The question is; if a mainspring can be overwound, then what is the difference between the overwound state and the fully wound state? Release/slipping or breaking of either end/loop/bridle?

It's probably a moot point because the winding works would almost certainly break or slip before over winding wouldn't it?

So, where the crown is at its stopping point, it's not overwound. Is that a fair assessment?


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> when referring to the state of a mainspring that has been wound to the point of no longer being able to wound any further,


The state you describe is not over wound, but fully wound. Sorry but you are arguing nonsense here.

I wound my Speedmaster this morning until it could not be wound any more - it is not over wound.


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi ladies,

disappointing, I wasted almost all my life with zillions of books and warming seats in schools and universities, not knowing that there is *one* book that explains the whole universe.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> The state you describe is not over wound, but fully wound. Sorry but you are arguing nonsense here.
> 
> I wound my Speedmaster this morning until it could not be wound any more - it is not over wound.


I wonder if I could force it just a little further to lockup? I'd be willing to bet I could if the same conditions were met that cause others to lockup. 
It's only nonsense if a consensus is not arrived at to apply terminology to the symptom of mechanically induced mainspring lockup. Call it what you like but it does exist and is more commonly referred to as overwound because it is a simple term that conveniently addresses the mechanism in question. 
I wonder how many mainsprings have been broken since the invention of the clock due to overwinding to the point of breaking. I guess it's up to the individual to determine if the term fits.


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> I wonder if I could force it just a little further to lockup?


Please explain the exact mechanism of this "lockup" you are referring to. How does a mainspring "lockup" from being wound too much?


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Roland Ranfft said:


> Hi ladies,
> 
> disappointing, I wasted almost all my life with zillions of books and warming seats in schools and universities, not knowing that there is *one* book that explains the whole universe.
> 
> Regards, Roland Ranfft


You do realize that all those books are written using a dictionary, encyclopedia or thesaurus? Everything else in those books are just filler after the definition you seek is revealed.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> Please explain the exact mechanism of this "lockup" you are referring to. How does a mainspring "lockup" from being wound too much?


We know the answer to that could be a few things. What I am after here is applying a general term to the condition. We know it happens, I've repaired a hundred if not more watches that were locked up aka overwound to the point the click was locked. I'd bet money you have repaired more with the same problem. Why no one has coined a technical term for this that is widely accepted is strange and that is likely why overwound is so commonly used, so perhaps we can correct this by reaching a consensus. 
I contend that a spring of any nature can be stretched beyond its intended specifications and will use that theory to support that a mainspring can be overwound if forced beyond its intended specifications due to mechanical failures elsewhere in the mechanism, typically causing lockup of the mainspring and click. 
An applied term to describe this condition could be "overwound", however a technical term could otherwise be coined such as mechanically induced mainspring lockup for those not willing to concede overwound as a condition. 
To say a mainspring cannot be overwound would be to say it is infinitely windable which they are not. 
Just my take on it.


----------



## maillchort (Sep 1, 2010)

Dirt, the bottom line is a watch or clock doesn't stop because it was wound too much. You also aren't going to "stretch" anything like a mainspring. One could wind to the point that a tooth breaks on the winding pinion or ratchet wheel, sure. Possibly on old compromised mainspring could break at the end from forcing the winding. Neither of the above scenarios would ever be referred to as overwound.

It's a term used by folks who don't know better (or do and are being unscrupulous)to describe a watch that is fully wound yet not functional. The cause of the stoppage is _ never _ because the spring was wound too much.

The ridiculousness of the term was discussed in my watchmaking school 20 years ago. If I ever heard a supposed professional use the term outside of joking my opinion of them would be made.

Sent from my SM-G901F using Tapatalk


----------



## duhgluss (Mar 3, 2014)

You're all overwrought. &#55357;&#56839;


----------



## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

Roland Ranfft said:


> Hi ladies,
> 
> disappointing, I wasted almost all my life with zillions of books and warming seats in schools and universities, not knowing that there is *one* book that explains the whole universe.
> 
> Regards, Roland Ranfft


Roland, 'tis 'The book of Carl' I am the font of all knowledge.


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> To say a mainspring cannot be overwound would be to say it is infinitely windable which they are not.
> Just my take on it.


Actually it says nothing of the kind.

As I said before there are several states a mainspring can be in:

1 - Fully wound
2 - Unwound
3 - Somewhere between 1 and 2
4 - Broken

Of course automatic watches with a slipping bridle can be wound indefinitely...

I have certainly repaired lots of watches that are fully wound and not running, but none of them were overwound - meaning that the cause of the watch not running was due to the amount of wind on the mainspring being "too much" as you seem to believe is possible. If there's a fault with the click, the click is the problem. If there's a fault in the train, the train is the problem.

You seem adamant that any watch that is fully wound and not running is overwound. If you want to continue using this term, that is certainly your choice, but again the fact that the watch is not running isn't related to the spring being fully wound. For me and most other watchmakers, it makes no sense to use a term related to the spring to describe faults elsewhere in the system.

In fact a better term (although not ideal) to use for the state you call overwound is locked up. I just call it faulty, but YMMV.

Cheers, Al


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> Actually it says nothing of the kind.
> 
> As I said before there are several states a mainspring can be in:
> 
> ...


You need to add (stretched) if you are to be purely analytical because any spring can be stretched beyond its predetermined static length, to say one cannot be overwound is infact a misconception based on old watchmaker myths. I feel confident to use overwound to describe the state of a mainspring that is wound past a point that its potential energy would normally be released. 
To be accurate and so to put it chronologically.
1, unwound
2, somewhere between 1 and 3
3, fully wound
4, stretched
5, broken
Interesting subject that has revealed flaws in the old watchmakers concepts of metallurgy. I'll leave this alone since the old watchmakers might be getting overwound "cranky".


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> You need to add (stretched) if you are to be purely analytical because any spring can be stretched beyond its predetermined static length, to say one cannot be overwound is infact a misconception based on old watchmaker myths. I feel confident to use overwound to describe the state of a mainspring that is wound past a point that its potential energy would normally be released.
> To be accurate and so to put it chronologically.
> 1, unwound
> 2, somewhere between 1 and 3
> ...


If you want to get into modes of failure for a mainspring we certainly can, but this is still not related to the idea of a watch being overwound. Of course a mainspring that is wound at all is "stretched" to use your term (elastic deformation) as that is how it stores the energy in the first place.

Brand new springs rarely fail in my experience and if they do it's usually because the tang end was not securely fastened to the spring body, so it just pops off. Where springs that have been in use fail, in most cases you don't really see the spring get to the yield strength (plastic deformation) and then to the ultimate strength like you would with stretching a steel sample to failure - there is no "necking" of the spring near the failure point - it just snaps:



Typically the failure is more like metal fatigue, and a clean break where it is repeatedly flexed. Often near the barrel arbor as above or out at the tang end.

I feel confident that a mainspring wound past the point where it's potential energy would normally be released is...broken...

Cheers, Al


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> If you want to get into modes of failure for a mainspring we certainly can, but this is still not related to the idea of a watch being overwound. Of course a mainspring that is wound at all is "stretched" to use your term (elastic deformation) as that is how it stores the energy in the first place.
> 
> Brand new springs rarely fail in my experience and if they do it's usually because the tang end was not securely fastened to the spring body, so it just pops off. Where springs that have been in use fail, in most cases you don't really see the spring get to the yield strength (plastic deformation) and then to the ultimate strength like you would with stretching a steel sample to failure - there is no "necking" of the spring near the failure point - it just snaps:
> 
> ...


You cannot say with 100 percent certainty that said spring would be broken though unless you apply the term to anything that falls outside of normal parameters. 
To the point though, there would almost never be necking near the breakage point as it would be a continuous linear pull throughout the full length which is what happens while winding tighter and tighter.
What happens at the break is a failure in the tempering/hardening of the material where the crystallization of the metal isn't tight enough to hold the metal together under force or where the material is far smaller surface area and unable to support the forces the rest of the material can absorb and fails. 
Since a spring actually by nature of design (elastic deformation) expands and contracts in heat and cold it can be said that it already stretches to some degree while in operation, almost all metals share this trait. 
Im still holding on to my simple term overwound. I like it, I may even make a sequel, Overwound II The Stretching. 😂


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

This thread has certainly been educational. Not about watches, mind you, or about watch repair. But educational nonetheless.


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi there,



dirtvictim said:


> ... term overwound. I like it, I may even make a sequel, Overwound II The Stretching. 


I'm deeply impressed. Obviously you and Mrs. Webster are the only having observed the supernatural phenomenon of overwinding, and stretch I through II, while all the pedestrian folks here and everywhere got bloody fingertips or broke anything else before reaching these levels.

So why not investigating this in depth, and publishing it in all major science journals? Maybe you even discover stretch III or at least win a Nobel prize?

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Roland Ranfft said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm deeply impressed. Obviously you and Mrs. Webster are the only having observed the supernatural phenomenon of overwinding, and stretch I through II, while all the pedestrian folks here and everywhere got bloody fingertips or broke anything else before reaching these levels.
> 
> ...


hmm Nobel has a nice ring to it. Stretch III that's just insane but not out of the question we will have to see how the franchise does with I and II. I will be looking for investors RR, maybe start a go wind-me?


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

maillchort said:


> Dirt, the bottom line is a watch or clock doesn't stop because it was wound too much. You also aren't going to "stretch" anything like a mainspring. One could wind to the point that a tooth breaks on the winding pinion or ratchet wheel, sure. Possibly on old compromised mainspring could break at the end from forcing the winding. Neither of the above scenarios would ever be referred to as overwound.
> 
> It's a term used by folks who don't know better (or do and are being unscrupulous)to describe a watch that is fully wound yet not functional. The cause of the stoppage is _ never _ because the spring was wound too much.
> 
> ...


I can stretch a mainspring spring to failure any time, that's easy they are quite thin. I can even fashion a test to determine how much a spring can be stretched but that is nothing new it should have been covered along with tempering and hardening in watchmaking school when you made a mainspring.
To say a mainspring cannot be stretched and thereby subsequently overwound shows lack of metallurgical knowledge.


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> Im still holding on to my simple term overwound. I like it, I may even make a sequel, Overwound II The Stretching. 😂


You should really stop digging that hole you find yourself in - it's only getting deeper mate.

You have posited that a spring can be stretched "past the point" where it is able to release the energy it has stored, and this leads to some sort of "lockup" of the mainspring. When you clearly explain this in detail I'll be happy to consider your theories, but until then we shall agree to disagree.

Cheers, Al


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> To say a mainspring cannot be stretched and thereby subsequently overwound shows lack of metallurgical knowledge.


Please explain how this stretching leads to a stopped watch. Otherwise, this is a straw man...


----------



## Stuey63 (Sep 25, 2017)

He's winding you up.


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

There is no lockup of energy in the mainspring. The energy stops when it hits non-rotating wheels or the balance will not swing to allow the pallet fork to release from the escapement; etc. The average watch or pocket watch owner simply continues to wind the non-working watch until the spring is completely around the mainspring arbour, while holding onto the barrel. So “overwound” is a term that simply describes a non operating watch where the owner just kept winding it, thinking that would solve the problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Had a good example today of the sort of problems this phrase can cause.

Old-ish guy came in with a watch I serviced about 3 months ago. It was the 4th "return" with the same complaint - won't run for more than 8 hours. On each occasion it's been fully unwound when he brings it in, and on each occasion he explains ow it's really strange that it works fine for a coupe of days after he brings it in but then stops again and won't run more than a few hours.

On each occasion, and again today, I've asked him to wind it as he normally would, watched as he counts 10 gentle half turns, then taken it from him and given it another 20 or so good turns of the crown.

On each occasion, and again today, I've explained to him that he's not winding it enough and he needs to keep winding until he feels it stop "hard".

On each occasion he's said he doesn't like to do that because he doesn't want to "damage it by over winding".

Nothing I can do or say will change his mind, and meanwhile:


He wastes 20 minutes I can't really spare each time
He's becoming more and more convinced that my work isn't up to scratch and i'm not willing to re-do it / I'm fobbing him off
I'm getting closer and closer to asking him (less than politely) to stop wasting my time, which would be a very bad thing for my reputation locally.

All because the world and his dog are convinced that over-winding is "a thing". o|


----------



## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

I'll tell my dad to leave you alone then shall I?


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> You should really stop digging that hole you find yourself in - it's only getting deeper mate.
> 
> You have posited that a spring can be stretched "past the point" where it is able to release the energy it has stored, and this leads to some sort of "lockup" of the mainspring. When you clearly explain this in detail I'll be happy to consider your theories, but until then we shall agree to disagree.
> 
> Cheers, Al


That's your opinion but you aren't looking at the physics of it all, you are stuck in the old watchmaker mindset focused on one factor that you have been taught simply cannot exist, overwinding a mainspring within the conditions of a mechanical devise called a watch. The mistake most are making is they think I am referring to state of a spring being "overwound" as the cause, it is not, it is a symptom in the case of a MS.

Physics tells us the effective length of a spring can be altered by outside forces and if no force is applied then the spring remains static, that is all you need to know to be able to apply the theory to a watch. It is sad that "watchmakers" seemingly forget that physics apply to a watch too.

The force applied to wind a MS already exceeds the opposing force otherwise you wouldn't be able to wind it. As you wind a watch you are slowly increasing the effective length of the MS to the point that you can no longer exceed the opposing force, in the case of a damaged watch where other forces stop the watch from functioning and cause the MS to lock up the click. You should be able to visualize all of this in your mind after all the watches you've worked on, I can.

One last point, if a mainspring never gets stretched then why do most watch companies recommend replacing it when being serviced after certain intervals? Because the spring gets fatigued from being stretched and falls outside its intended parameters of tension.

The myth that a watch cannot be overwound has been challenged by applied physics. It will require a counter in physics not "watchmaker" indoctrination to support itself as fact which in my experience never was proven.


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

Joe Horner said:


> Had a good example today of the sort of problems this phrase can cause.
> 
> Old-ish guy came in with a watch I serviced about 3 months ago. It was the 4th "return" with the same complaint - won't run for more than 8 hours. On each occasion it's been fully unwound when he brings it in, and on each occasion he explains ow it's really strange that it works fine for a coupe of days after he brings it in but then stops again and won't run more than a few hours.
> 
> ...


This a challenge when dealing with seniors +85 as often, no explaining will prevent what they truly think. No all of course

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

jdrichard01 said:


> There is no lockup of energy in the mainspring. The energy stops when it hits non-rotating wheels or the balance will not swing to allow the pallet fork to release from the escapement; etc. The average watch or pocket watch owner simply continues to wind the non-working watch until the spring is completely around the mainspring arbour, while holding onto the barrel. So "overwound" is a term that simply describes a non operating watch where the owner just kept winding it, thinking that would solve the problem.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


sort of correct. The energy is still being held in the MS but the energy never dissipates until it is released. Energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transformed or transferred. 
Don't let anyone else here hear you use the term overwound, they are still having trouble with applied physics and cannot translate it to watchmaking. ?


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

dirtvictim said:


> That's your opinion but you aren't looking at the physics of it all, you are stuck in the old watchmaker mindset focused on one factor that you have been taught simply cannot exist, overwinding a mainspring within the conditions of a mechanical devise called a watch. The mistake most are making is they think I am referring to state of a spring being "overwound" as the cause, it is not, it is a symptom in the case of a MS.
> 
> Physics tells us the effective length of a spring can be altered by outside forces and if no force is applied then the spring remains static, that is all you need to know to be able to apply the theory to a watch. It is sad that "watchmakers" seemingly forget that physics apply to a watch too.
> 
> The force applied to wind a MS already exceeds the opposing force otherwise you wouldn't be able to wind it. As you wind a watch you are slowly increasing the effective length of the MS to the point that you can no longer exceed the opposing force,


Simply, No.

You do NOT wind a watch by stretching, elongating or otherwise increasing the length (effective or otherwise) of the mainspring. You wind it by creating a _bending_ stress in the spring as it's wound from the outside of the barrel to the inside. That is a tensile stress in the outside of each coil countered by a compressive stress on the inside which combine to create a tendency for it to straighten but _without a change in length_.

It's only when the spring is fully wound - all coiled around the arbor except for one short "tail" that goes across the barrel to the hook - that there's any direct tensile (or "stretching") force applies. That is only applied to the tail, and it's the fact that you _can't_ apply enough force to "stretch" it that makes it come up solid at that point.

As for your (frankly slightly insulting) comments about "needing physics" to counter "watchmakers myths". My background, and all of my working life up to 20 odd years ago was in engineering, including aircraft. I am WELL aware of the physics and modes of material failure, as I'm sure many of the others disagreeing with you are too.

Nivaflex 45/18, as used in mainsprings, has a typical yield strength of 950MPa - that's about 138000 PSI. A typical mainspring (let's say from an ST96) has dimensions of 1.6mm height and 0.11mm strength. That gives a cross sectional area of 0.000272 square inches. The tensile force needed to reach yield would be about 38 lbs.

That force is acting tangentially on the wound part of the mainspring, at a radius of roughly 3mm, or 0.12 inches, from the arbor centre. 38 lbs at that radius represents a torque of 316 inch lbs, or 26 lbFt.

Allowing roughly 7:1 gearing through the winding wheels, and assuming ZERO losses to friction, that would require about 4 lbFt of torque applied to the crown - that's a 4lb weight hung on the end of a foot long lever attached to the crown! You'd break the stem or do other damage LONG before you reached the yield strength of the mainspring.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> Simply, No.
> 
> You do NOT wind a watch by stretching, elongating or otherwise increasing the length (effective or otherwise) of the mainspring. You wind it by creating a _bending_ stress in the spring as it's wound from the outside of the barrel to the inside. That is a tensile stress in the outside of each coil countered by a compressive stress on the inside which combine to create a tendency for it to straighten but _without a change in length_.
> 
> ...


You have proven more of what I have stated than you realize. I think you are trying too hard to sound like you know way more than you do, it almost sounds like you are saying a spring won't stretch and that is very misleading, every metal will stretch. 
Why are you quoting yield strength? That is beyond the scope of this exercise which is the ability to of a spring to stretch. To say that the only place on a spring that may stretch is at an end is simply not a fact, that is a common place for them to break though.
Funny though that plenty of springs do break so did they reach their yield strength under far less force than you are quoting? I suspect so, I have several watches in a drawer with this exact problem and no other damage How do you explain that? Poor tempering or hardening and too much force winding exceeded the tensile strength yea that would be the answer, I've already covered this without all the technical jargon you are slinging to perhaps mislead readers. 
The simple task of bending a spring is by nature stretching it, it is applying tensile force. it doesnt need to be any more complicated in explaining this fact. We wouldn't want anyone here getting confused in your assessment which greatly understates the potential of stretching a mainspring which are not immune to the effects of tensile force. You would lead us to believe it is impossible to do so in a watch and I say you are incorrect to infer the idea of impossible. 

Stress testing will let us to get a fair comparison of the effects of a force on different samples of a material. A tensile force will stretch and, possibly, break the sample. However, the force needed to break a sample will vary as will the force needed to stretch a sample which will be far less depending on the cross sectional area of the sample. If the cross sectional area is bigger, the breaking force will be bigger. However, the breaking _stress will always be the same because the stress is the force per unit area._


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

dirtvictim said:


> sort of correct. The energy is still being held in the MS but the energy never dissipates until it is released. Energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transformed or transferred.
> Don't let anyone else here hear you use the term overwound, they are still having trouble with applied physics and cannot translate it to watchmaking.


I am an electrical engineer in aerospace and do understand potential energy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

dirtvictim said:


> sort of correct. The energy is still being held in the MS but the energy never dissipates until it is released. Energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transformed or transferred.
> Don't let anyone else here hear you use the term overwound, they are still having trouble with applied physics and cannot translate it to watchmaking.


Unloading of the energy through the gears also depends on the coefficient of friction for each independent tooth on each gear

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

I was talking watches with a friend, and she told me about a friend of hers who had gotten a vintage Rolex Cellini, but complained that it kept stopping. She was doing the same thing as Joe's old-ish guy - wind it a few times whenever she remembered to. And of course, she was afraid of 'overwinding' it. 

Imagine if watches really worked like that, if it were possible to easily wind them too much and you really had to only wind them a bit, a couple times a day. Our ancestors would never have bothered with the fiddly things - too unreliable!


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

jdrichard01 said:


> I am an electrical engineer in aerospace and do understand potential energy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


then you know.


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi dirtvictim,

after this simple sentence


Joe Horner said:


> That is a tensile stress in the outside of each coil countered by a compressive stress on the inside...


and your reply, I believe that you are learning resistant. Maybe Joe should have admitted that this bending means *stretching* the outer surface and shrinking of the inner by typically 0.4% each. But this would have made your reply likely more confusing.

So I'll not waste more time, but I'm still curious about your theory why mainsprings almost never break at their weakest spots (the terminals). I expect it to be outstandingly entertaining.

Regards, Roland Ranftt


----------



## Stuey63 (Sep 25, 2017)

dirtvictim said:


> One last point, if a mainspring never gets stretched then why do most watch companies recommend replacing it when being serviced after certain intervals? Because the spring gets fatigued from being stretched and falls outside its intended parameters of tension.


So are you saying that a mainspring needing replacement is longer than an unused one for the same movement?


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

My final thoughts on this subject.
if you are simply accepting the status quo and not doing more in-depth research then you are doing yourself a disservice.
A mainspring is made of metal, any metal can be stretched, bending metal is factually stretching it, bending metal is factually extending its effective length, mainsprings are bent with force to fit within the barrel altering its effective length.
prior to clutched mainsprings untold thousands of mainsprings broke during winding and the act of winding was how they discovered the effects of overwinding and finally the term overwind protection was coined during the invention of clutched mainsprings, hmm?
apply these facts and question old myths because that is how you learn. 
Im officially out of this one.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

I dunno. The guy wants physics, you give him physics, physics is "over complicating" it.

And so the Great Myth marches on!


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

dirtvictim said:


> then you know.


I couldn't "resist" the "plug"

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## maillchort (Sep 1, 2010)

Well since dirt's out we should set things straight for any future inexperienced readers of this thread:

You cannot cause a watch to stop by overwinding it.


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> It is sad that "watchmakers" seemingly forget that physics apply to a watch too.


It would be nice if you could discuss this without these personal attacks. You may think we are all just "old watchmakers" but many of us are not that old, and in addition to being watchmakers have had other careers - for me that was mechanical engineering for 23 years for a large multinational.



dirtvictim said:


> in the case of a damaged watch where other forces stop the watch from functioning and cause the MS to lock up the click.


Well at least you have admitted that it's things other than the mainspring being fully wound that are stopping the watch. This is where the term "overwound" is misleading - it places blame for the watch not running on the fact that the mainspring is fully wound. As you have stated the fact that the mainspring is fully wound is a symptom, not a problem. That is all we have been saying all along. You can use whatever twisted logic to wish to validate that term for yourself, but when I am dealing with customers and educating people, I prefer to use terms that don't confuse them, rather than terms that tend to make things less clear.

The real "physics" of what is going on inside most watches that are described as "overwound" is that the torque supplied by the mainspring is not sufficient to overcome the frictional loads in the train, so the watch doesn't run. Most often because the oils have dried up and the movement is dirty.

And just as an aside, the click locks the mainspring, not the other way around...


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> ...
> prior to clutched mainsprings untold thousands of mainsprings broke during winding and the act of winding was how they discovered the effects of overwinding and finally the term overwind protection was coined during the invention of clutched mainsprings, hmm?
> ...


1. A spring which breaks during winding was not 'overwound', since it had almost certainly been wound to the same extent many times prior to breaking.

2. A broken mainspring causes symptoms almost the polar opposite of what people call 'overwound' - you keep turning the crown and never feel any increase in resistance versus not being able to wind it anymore. Nobody goes to a watchmaker and says "It's overwound" when the crown keeps turning.


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi there,



dirtvictim said:


> ...untold thousands of mainsprings broke during winding


And how about these two right from my stock?









Both were never ever wound, and even were never in touch with a watch. Mainsprings break by material fatigue, either due to age (as shown) or by daily changing the curvature. Whenever this happens, you only notice it when winding the watch, and that's why less knowledgable people believe that they wound the spring too hard, i.e. stretched it until it broke.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

dirtvictim said:


> We know the answer to that could be a few things. What I am after here is applying a general term to the condition. We know it happens, I've repaired a hundred if not more watches that were locked up aka overwound to the point the click was locked.


A click that was locked because of over winding? A click is always locked... that's what it's there for.

Not understanding that makes your whole engineering argument/theory just a tad suspect


----------



## demo (Apr 1, 2015)

Also from the dictionary:

mis·no·mer
misˈnōmər/
_noun_


a wrong or inaccurate name or designation.
king crab" is a misnomer-these creatures are not crustaceans at all"




synonyms:inaccurate name/label/designation, wrong name/label/designation, inappropriate name/label/designation"scientists say "killer whale" is a misnomer for what is one of the gentlest marine creatures known to man"



a wrong or inaccurate use of a name or term.
"to call this "neighborhood policing" would be a misnomer"

Mike




[/COLOR]


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Roland Ranfft said:


> Mainsprings break by material fatigue, either due to age (as shown) or by daily changing the curvature. Whenever this happens, you only notice it when winding the watch, and that's why less knowledgable people believe that they wound the spring too hard, i.e. stretched it until it broke.
> 
> Regards, Roland Ranfft


Or, occasionally, for no apparent reason at all.

Had a brand new one go on a mantle clock a few weeks back. Agreed to do a strike side mainspring only on it (removable barrels) against my better judgement. Ran fine on test for about 4 days, then the new spring broke overnight and took 4 teeth + the arbor on the intermediate wheel, + 2 lantern pinion pins on the strike wheel, with it. Not a happy teddy!

On the plus side, it gave me an excuse to do some lathe work which I rarely have time for nowadays


----------



## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

Does anyone else find it astounding that this thread has grown to 7 pages...?
Regards, BG


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

BenchGuy said:


> Does anyone else find it astounding that this thread has grown to 7 pages...?
> Regards, BG


We all just like to talk

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

Joe Horner said:


> Or, occasionally, for no apparent reason at all.
> 
> Had a brand new one go on a mantle clock a few weeks back. Agreed to do a strike side mainspring only on it (removable barrels) against my better judgement. Ran fine on test for about 4 days, then the new spring broke overnight and took 4 teeth + the arbor on the intermediate wheel, + 2 lantern pinion pins on the strike wheel, with it. Not a happy teddy!
> 
> On the plus side, it gave me an excuse to do some lathe work which I rarely have time for nowadays


More lathe work

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> It would be nice if you could discuss this without these personal attacks. You may think we are all just "old watchmakers" but many of us are not that old, and in addition to being watchmakers have had other careers - for me that was mechanical engineering for 23 years for a large multinational.
> 
> Well at least you have admitted that it's things other than the mainspring being fully wound that are stopping the watch. This is where the term "overwound" is misleading - it places blame for the watch not running on the fact that the mainspring is fully wound. As you have stated the fact that the mainspring is fully wound is a symptom, not a problem. That is all we have been saying all along. You can use whatever twisted logic to wish to validate that term for yourself, but when I am dealing with customers and educating people, I prefer to use terms that don't confuse them, rather than terms that tend to make things less clear.
> 
> ...


I never said that overwinding caused the watch to stop, however in reality winding a MS can lead to revealing issues or defects in other parts can it not?
No twisted logic just trying to identify the roll played by the MS and all conditions within its use. 
The old watchmaker reference is a poke not an insult as I too am old. You shouldn't be taking things personally after all these years of communicating here.
I get where you are coming from as well but there are several ways of looking at things for example, if the mainspring didn't exist then the click would never lock up, correct, I would say they are integral in function requiring all pieces of the puzzle to work. So in reality isn't it the mainspring back pressure that locks the wheel into the click if there is a fault in the system that causes excessive BP? You might say that there is no excessive BP, that it is normal BP but I would say that since the system is not releasing the potential energy that the BP isn't normal anymore it is exceeding its intended pressure. 
Terminology is transitional as we discover new things and concepts we alter terms, many years ago the term overwound was common when referring to mainspring issues so what changed? Hundreds of vintage ads are proof of the use of the term overwound or overwind protection from watch companies that had been making watches for many decades. 
As a mechanical engineer can you say with 100% certainty that a spring being pulled or coiled isn't being stretched as another ME here has suggested? This is the crux of my position and has been all along. I am 100% certain this is the case, isn't it the reality that a MS is being stretched while in use? 
Ponder this and let me know if I have imparted a good line of questioning.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

OnlyOneMore said:


> A click that was locked because of over winding? A click is always locked... that's what it's there for.
> 
> Not understanding that makes your whole engineering argument/theory just a tad suspect


A click only locks with backpressure from the MS or the click spring. While winding, a click is no longer locked until the click spring forces it back into lock position against the wheel tooth again.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

GeneJockey said:


> 1. A spring which breaks during winding was not 'overwound', since it had almost certainly been wound to the same extent many times prior to breaking.
> 
> 2. A broken mainspring causes symptoms almost the polar opposite of what people call 'overwound' - you keep turning the crown and never feel any increase in resistance versus not being able to wind it anymore. Nobody goes to a watchmaker and says "It's overwound" when the crown keeps turning.


agreed.
I should have separated part of my statement. A period after winding, remove "and", then the rest would hold true. Probably a little hurried in getting back to work.


----------



## Emcphers (Sep 17, 2017)

I guess now I can stop fretting over how many times I wind the crown


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Roland Ranfft said:


> Hi there,
> 
> And how about these two right from my stock?
> 
> ...


Of course it is agreed that materials do fatigue, however it needs to be addressed that while in the state you have shown, these two springs are being forced to stay in that position therefore they are being stressed. The natural state of a typical MS is only partly wound with a bit of a tail that also slightly coils in another direction and in that natural state there is far less stress applied, so possibly in that released state they may last longer too?


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> I dunno. The guy wants physics, you give him physics, physics is "over complicating" it.
> 
> And so the Great Myth marches on!


We were given theoretical physics not applied or even experimental physics. So let's see the physical proof because theory and formulas are only half of the equation as we all know. Nice try though.


----------



## taike (Mar 7, 2014)

dirtvictim said:


> My final thoughts on this subject...
> Im officially out of this one.


lol


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

maillchort said:


> Well since dirt's out we should set things straight for any future inexperienced readers of this thread:
> 
> You cannot cause a watch to stop by overwinding it.


Just to be technical if a watch has an internal problem the act of winding it can cause it to stop because the force of the MS can cause weak parts to break or bind internally stopping the works but if the MS remains unwound then the problem doesn't present itself and for all practical purposes doesn't exist yet. Dirt wasn't out he was busy working. Don't fret Dirt is still able to critique criticism as well as accept it if applicable.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

taike said:


> lol


I try to get out but they pull me back in.


----------



## taike (Mar 7, 2014)

dirtvictim said:


> I try to get out but they pull me back in.


you're always right. I can tell


----------



## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

And he's back.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

dirtvictim said:


> We were given theoretical physics not applied or even experimental physics. So let's see the physical proof because theory and formulas are only half of the equation as we all know. Nice try though.


No, that was _applied_ physics. Where the physical principles of material properties were _applied_ to a particular problem of how much force would need to be applied to a given spring in order to reach its yield point - which, by definition, is the point at which permanent deformation (or "stretching") occurs.

Honestly, please stop digging.


----------



## Stuey63 (Sep 25, 2017)

The OP has just hit his pocket watch with a ball pein hammer and bought a Fossil quartz.


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> I never said that overwinding caused the watch to stop, however in reality winding a MS can lead to revealing issues or defects in other parts can it not?
> No twisted logic just trying to identify the roll played by the MS and all conditions within its use.
> The old watchmaker reference is a poke not an insult as I too am old. You shouldn't be taking things personally after all these years of communicating here.
> I get where you are coming from as well but there are several ways of looking at things for example, if the mainspring didn't exist then the click would never lock up, correct, I would say they are integral in function requiring all pieces of the puzzle to work. So in reality isn't it the mainspring back pressure that locks the wheel into the click if there is a fault in the system that causes excessive BP? You might say that there is no excessive BP, that it is normal BP but I would say that since the system is not releasing the potential energy that the BP isn't normal anymore it is exceeding its intended pressure.
> ...


What I have seen from you in this thread is a desperate attempt to come up with any line of reasoning that might even remotely suggest that the term "overwound" is a valid condition. The fact that you have had to go on such a journey to justify this term should be proof enough that it is not a term that clarifies anything for people.

As I've already said, I prefer to use terms that are specific and descriptive of the actual problem at hand, and "overwound" is not such a term.

You can carry on using whatever arguments you want to try to "win" this and get the agreement from someone that you seek, but I don't think that really helps anyone going forward...even you.

Cheers, Al


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

taike said:


> you're always right. I can tell


LOL nope just seldom wrong.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> What I have seen from you in this thread is a desperate attempt to come up with any line of reasoning that might even remotely suggest that the term "overwound" is a valid condition. The fact that you have had to go on such a journey to justify this term should be proof enough that it is not a term that clarifies anything for people.
> 
> As I've already said, I prefer to use terms that are specific and descriptive of the actual problem at hand, and "overwound" is not such a term.
> 
> ...


Broken is not a specifically descriptive term either but overwound or broken can lead to discovery of the exact same problem. 
The journey here is for discovery after all, I have introduced plenty of facts to support my line of reasoning however opposing views have introduced very little new information to counter. 
When all other possibilities have been eliminated whatever remains however unlikely must be the truth. I see that some here are not considering all possibilities. I would like to be convinced all possibilities have been eliminated but I am not that is why I continue to question. It is bad when we stop questioning things that can be questioned.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Stuey63 said:


> The OP has just hit his pocket watch with a ball pein hammer and bought a Fossil quartz.


Ha


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> Broken is not a specifically descriptive term either but overwound or broken can lead to discovery of the exact same problem.
> The journey here is for discovery after all, I have introduced plenty of facts to support my line of reasoning however opposing views have introduced very little new information to counter.
> When all other possibilities have been eliminated whatever remains however unlikely must be the truth. I see that some here are not considering all possibilities. I would like to be convinced all possibilities have been eliminated but I am not that is why I continue to question. It is bad when we stop questioning things that can be questioned.


You continue to slip in little things that you hope will prove your points. I never said if a watch was fully wound and not running I would call the watch "broken" but you try to validate your position by opposing something I've not said. When someone brings me a watch like the OP has described, I tell them it needs to be inspected to determine what the specific problem is. I don't tell them it's "overwound" or "broken" because neither of those things is helpful.

Big difference between questioning things, and beating a dead horse...yet you continue to swing at that horse...

You can try to make this seem like some noble quest, but I don't think anyone is buying it.


----------



## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

No is a good time for the ignore function methinks.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

Speaking of applied physics, springs, and fatigue, consider the wooden long bow. It is a spring. To store energy in the spring, you bend it using the string. The back is under tension, the belly is compressed. Like a mainspring, you make a bow of the same width stronger by making it thicker, i.e. greater distance between the back and belly, thus increasing the tension and compression for the same arc of bending.

Over time, the tension and compression will fatigue the wood, and the bow that was once straight when unbraced now bends toward the string. It doesn't become longer as a whole - the back may be longer but the belly will be shorter. Same with mainspring. It doesn't become longer as a whole. The outside may elongate while the inside becomes shorter.

Of course the other thing long bows and mainsprings have in common is that historically both are subject to the Crown. ;-)


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> You continue to slip in little things that you hope will prove your points. I never said if a watch was fully wound and not running I would call the watch "broken" but you try to validate your position by opposing something I've not said. When someone brings me a watch like the OP has described, I tell them it needs to be inspected to determine what the specific problem is. I don't tell them it's "overwound" or "broken" because neither of those things is helpful.
> 
> Big difference between questioning things, and beating a dead horse...yet you continue to swing at that horse...
> 
> You can try to make this seem like some noble quest, but I don't think anyone is buying it.


Actually this exercise has nothing to do with how you handle a client that brings in a damaged watch though so interjecting that factor doesn't do anything to move the discussion forward it only beats your drum. 
You have no new or old or proven information to support your position, if you did you would have supplied it by now. You know like advertisements published by the watchmakers that reference overwind protection. I know you won't accept that either so I won't bother to post it.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

GeneJockey said:


> Speaking of applied physics, springs, and fatigue, consider the wooden long bow. It is a spring. To store energy in the spring, you bend it using the string. The back is under tension, the belly is compressed. Like a mainspring, you make a bow of the same width stronger by making it thicker, i.e. greater distance between the back and belly, thus increasing the tension and compression for the same arc of bending.
> 
> Over time, the tension and compression will fatigue the wood, and the bow that was once straight when unbraced now bends toward the string. It doesn't become longer as a whole - the back may be longer but the belly will be shorter. Same with mainspring. It doesn't become longer as a whole. The outside may elongate while the inside becomes shorter.
> 
> Of course the other thing long bows and mainsprings have in common is that historically both are subject to the Crown. ;-)


Actually a fair comparison at least worth addressing. This proves that fatigue ie stress causes stretching which of course has been well proven. The fibers in the wood are stretched with forces applied against the predetermined shape, not to say stretching the length but stretching sideways none the less, the fibers are stretched and normally would not return to the aforementioned shape. I would only assume that wood could be stretched in length but do not have that answer.
Remember that a MS is being pulled in length as well as coiled so more forces are in question than with a long bow with a very slow arc. Bows have specific reinforcement built in to absorb the extra stresses applied unlike a flat MS which doesn't.
a MS has heat treatment to maintain curvature that in one section follows the predetermined coiled shape but is forced against its natural curvature on the opposite end "tail" automatically causing stress = stretch. The answers are out there if anyone has the wherewithal to seek them. I don't claim to have all the answers.


----------



## taike (Mar 7, 2014)

dirtvictim said:


> ...I don't claim to have all the answers.


could have fooled me


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> Actually a fair comparison at least worth addressing. This proves that fatigue ie stress causes stretching which of course has been well proven. The fibers in the wood are stretched with forces applied against the predetermined shape, not to say stretching the length but stretching sideways none the less, the fibers are stretched and normally would not return to the aforementioned shape. I would only assume that wood could be stretched in length but do not have that answer.
> Remember that a MS is being pulled in length as well as coiled so more forces are in question than with a long bow with a very slow arc. Bows have specific reinforcement built in to absorb the extra stresses applied unlike a flat MS which doesn't.
> a MS has heat treatment to maintain curvature that in one section follows the predetermined coiled shape but is forced against its natural curvature on the opposite end "tail" automatically causing stress = stretch. The answers are out there if anyone has the wherewithal to seek them. I don't claim to have all the answers.


Dude. Tension and compression. Both forces are at work. Not 'pulled in length'. The inside surface of the mainspring is compressed, that's how a spring works. The reverse curve at the end is just storing more energy, like the reverse curve on a recurve bow. It's a way of increasing stored energy. Mainsprings and bows break when the tension or compression exceeds the strength of the material. Generally, it's a problem on the inner or outer surface, because that's where the stresses are the greatest.


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi there,



dirtvictim said:


> I don't claim to have *all* the answers.


In fact you have only *one* answer, and every further insight is far from reality.

Right is that the hooks on arbor and barrel wall pull at the ends of the spring, and precisely here your list of answers ends. All other participants failled to explain you the difference between bending a spring and lengthen it.

Take for comparison a tow rope: Pretty easy to bend, but hard to lengthen permanently, an even harder to tear apart - just a matter of experience, and nobody ever investigated why.

So there are things between heaven and earth, you'll not understand. So remain satisfied with the answer for one qestion, and don't expect further attempts to explain you what happens in a barrel. Not for nothing most barrels have a cover to hide the secrets inside. On some is even written "Do Not Open", to keep even watchmakers away from any insight. b-)

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

GeneJockey said:


> Dude. Tension and compression. Both forces are at work. Not 'pulled in length'. The inside surface of the mainspring is compressed, that's how a spring works. The reverse curve at the end is just storing more energy, like the reverse curve on a recurve bow. It's a way of increasing stored energy. Mainsprings and bows break when the tension or compression exceeds the strength of the material. Generally, it's a problem on the inner or outer surface, because that's where the stresses are the greatest.


I believe I stated that the MS is being pulled and coiled at the same time, is that not what is happening? Perhaps I should have said pulled along its length? The tail end "bridle" is not necessarily for storing energy but certainly can be said to given it is under stress=stretch. Think 3 dimensions, length doesn't only apply to linear. 
Thought we were close on this but guess not.
In automatic watches, motion of the wrist could continue winding the mainspring until it broke. This is prevented with a slipping clutch device.[SUP][13][/SUP] The outer end of the mainspring, instead of attaching to the barrel, is attached to a circular expansion spring called the _bridle_ that presses against the inner wall of the barrel, which has serrations or notches to hold it. During normal winding the bridle holds by friction to the barrel, allowing the mainspring to wind. When the mainspring nears its full tension, its pull is stronger than the bridle. Further rotation of the arbor causes the bridle to slip along the barrel, preventing further winding. In watch company terminology, this is often misleadingly referred to as an unbreakable mainspring. Early springs did not have a clutch making it easier to stress the spring to the breaking point, stress=stretch.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Roland Ranfft said:


> Hi there,
> 
> In fact you have only *one* answer, and every further insight is far from reality.
> 
> ...


It's no secret what happens in a barrel, A MS is being pulled along its length as well as being coiled. Turning the arbor pulls tension on the spring along its length at the same rate it is coiling.

A tow rope is not a good example because it cannot hold tension in a coiled fashion, it can however be wrapped around a circular devise and tension can be applied to its length if at least one end is fixed as with a MS within a barrel.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainspring

This references in very good detail most of what I have been saying about spring stretch "set" after prolonged tension and overwound although they contradict that later on saying it's a myth after having used it in earlier reference. 
I still stand with my conclusions a watch can be overwound. At least something can be learned here.


----------



## Stuey63 (Sep 25, 2017)

So are you saying that a mainspring needing replacement is longer than an unused one for the same movement?

Repeated because I'm sure I'd read that you could find the length you needed to order from measuring the old spring.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

Please provide evidence that the mainspring becomes longer with use.


----------



## taike (Mar 7, 2014)

GeneJockey said:


> Please provide evidence that the mainspring becomes longer with use.


depends on use. towing cars or launching arrows


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

One thing I have noticed from Dirt's posts is the continual assertion that "stress = stretch". From someone urging us to consider the physics involved that's a huge blooper.

"Stress" is NOT the same as "stretching", even when considering tension. Anyone with high school physics should know that.

_Stress_ is the force per unit area applied to a material by an applied load, which will tend to produce _strain_. Strain is deformation of the material, which may be elongation ("stretching"), or squashing (compression), or bending, or twisting (torsion).

The two aren't interchangeable, and the best you can say is that an applied stress will cause some strain in the material - but that strain might be stretching, squashing, bending or twisting. So saying that "stress = stretching" is simply wrong.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> One thing I have noticed from Dirt's posts is the continual assertion that "stress = stretch". From someone urging us to consider the physics involved that's a huge blooper.
> 
> "Stress" is NOT the same as "stretching", even when considering tension. Anyone with high school physics should know that.
> 
> ...


Science
*Tensile Stress*
Tensile stress is that type of stress in which the two sections of material on either side of a stress plane tend to pull apart or elongate. 
When a load is applied to metal, the atomic structure itself is strained, being compressed, warped or extended in the process.
Pretty sure elongate = stretch, extended = stretch, strain = stress, stress = stretch however you categorize those terms is up to you but don't expect everyone to buy into it.

I'll wait here till one of you guys submit a qualified theory, use applied physics to substantiate the findings and publish a paper on how a mainspring cannot be stretched. Then after it is accepted by the scientific community I will gladly accept the findings, till then all I hear is Bla Bla terminology Bla doesn't exist Bla can't be done. ?


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

Any one been converted/convinced by Dirt yet?

Anyone?
Anyone?

There you have it...


----------



## taike (Mar 7, 2014)

OnlyOneMore said:


> Any one been converted/convinced by Dirt yet?
> 
> Anyone?
> Anyone?
> ...


I'm convinced he hasn't got a clue


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

dirtvictim said:


> Joe Horner said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I have noticed from Dirt's posts is the continual assertion that "stress = stretch". From someone urging us to consider the physics involved that's a huge blooper.
> ...


NO!

By all means continue to google, copy and paste but PLEASE try to undrrstand what it is you're copying!

Stress dors NOT equal strain, and there's no way it can be made to.

Stress is a measure of force per unit area (as is pressure) and is measured in the same units - Pascals in SI or lbs per square inch in imperial.

Strain is a measure of deformation calculated as the dimensionsl change caused by a stress divided by the unstressed dimension. Because it's a length divided by a length it's a dimensionless value.

So stress and strain are not only conceptually different things, mathematically they use different units And CANNOT EVER be "equal" or "the same".


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> NO!
> 
> By all means continue to google, copy and paste but PLEASE try to undrrstand what it is you're copying!
> 
> ...


Over stating the technical terms of units of measurement to create some sort of separation of facts doesn't help you, that's called a diversionary tactic. There is a more than tenuous connection of the terms but you can't accept it and I really don't care that you don't know how to make those connections.
Please re read your own earlier statement. You contradict yourself saying something doesn't exist then it does. When you find the mistake let us know by saying "dang it I contradicted myself".
Feel free to tell these guys they are wrong and spend time correcting them, I'm sure they will take it to heart. https://www.engineersedge.com/material_science/stress_definition.htm

write your paper get it published set the record straight and correct the many sources that support pretty much everything I have been saying with more than tenuous connections. Oh yea Bla Bla Bla.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

OnlyOneMore said:


> Any one been converted/convinced by Dirt yet?
> 
> Anyone?
> Anyone?
> ...


I am not satisfied that all the questions have been answered here. Just because you may be satisfied doesn't give you validity. I don't care to convince or convert, everyone here can make their own decisions. 
If you are only here to berate me then that is sad. Why not just leave if you have no new or compelling information to add. I don't see where anyone here has published findings on the subject at hand so why take their word at it?


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

taike said:


> I'm convinced he hasn't got a clue


Please enlighten us with your or any published findings on the subject that correct the record. I'll wait for that clue.
It's amusing how far some will go to purposely avoid discovery, so sad.


----------



## bounder (Sep 24, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> Please enlighten us with your or any published findings on the subject that correct the record. I'll wait for that clue.
> It's amusing how far some will go to purposely avoid discovery, so sad.


Um... I've not been studying this very long, but I think you have the wrong end of the stick in re: auto spring bridles. It's the end of the spring itself that slides along the barrel wall, not the bridle.


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

My only question at this point is why. 

Why do you believe everyone here is conspiring against the truth about whether a watch can be overwound or not? What is there to gain for everyone in this thread (except for you) to perpetuate this "myth" that a watch can't be overwound. 

Let's for a second pretend you're right. After everything you've written you've never explained how a stretched spring locks up a watch. Let's say it has stretched... a lot... 2mm. How would that affect the uncoiling of the spring? What would stop the coil from "unraveling", for lack of a better word. It's wound around the arbor very tightly (too tightly according to you)what would cause it to bind? What is the mechanical process that would stop it from doing what it was designed to do?

p.s.
When a watch has been over wound, do have to let down the main spring before servicing the watch or is the spring jammed and therefore won't uncoil when you manually operate the click? If you do have to let it down, why? It shouldn't actually be operating should it? Over wound should mean the mainspring should be jammed inside the barrel. If this is not the case explain it to me.


----------



## maillchort (Sep 1, 2010)

OnlyOneMore said:


> My only question at this point is why.
> 
> Why do you believe everyone here is conspiring against the truth about whether a watch can be overwound or not? What is there to gain for everyone in this thread (except for you) to perpetuate this "myth" that a watch can't be overwound.
> 
> ...


C'mon, quit with these diversion tactics. Dirt made it clear earlier in the thread that when overwound the mainspring _locks up the click _. Let science be your guide, release the click.

Sent from my SM-G901F using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

dirtvictim said:


> Over stating the technical terms of units of measurement to create some sort of separation of facts doesn't help you, that's called a diversionary tactic.


Wrong again. Physics, engineering and maths are technical subjects _with clearly defined technical terminology_. It simply isn't up to you to ignore those definitions and use words however you like. Doing that is heading through the Looking Glass!



LewisCarroll said:


> ""When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean-neither more nor less."


----------



## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

Conclusion: when you over-whined a watch, language becomes strained...?

Regards, BG


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

Joe Horner said:


> Wrong again. Physics, engineering and maths are technical subjects _with clearly defined technical terminology_. It simply isn't up to you to ignore those definitions and use words however you like. Doing that is heading through the Looking Glass!


Joe - you are wasting your time mate. Our friend Dirt is the embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Welcome to a world where everyone is an "expert" thanks to Google and Wikipedia, even though they don't understand in the slightest the things they are frantically looking up on the internet to support their argument.

The death of expertise indeed...


----------



## arogle1stus (May 23, 2013)

Joe Horner:
Right you are Bro.
Carried Hamilton 992b and 950b for a zillion years on RR. (Engr)
Both hand crankers. Never once in all those years did I ever have
an issue of overwinding. Ditto the B W Raymonds I borrowed as
loaners while RR watch inspector service my Hammy's. Jus sayin!

X Traindriver Art


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

OnlyOneMore said:


> My only question at this point is why.
> 
> Why do you believe everyone here is conspiring against the truth about whether a watch can be overwound or not? What is there to gain for everyone in this thread (except for you) to perpetuate this "myth" that a watch can't be overwound.
> 
> ...


The simple answer is because there is sufficient evidence to prove otherwise and I have compiled and provided it yet they continue to divert from the facts provided. So who is really crazy here the one that adheres to simple physics and published data or those that divert critiquing definitions to avoid the heart of the questioning. 
Seemingly some here would have us believe that a mainspring is some sort of miracle of science that falls outside the laws of physics and therefore cannot be stretched or that the magical forces found within a barrel somehow negate the forces on the MS that must be wound tight to fit inside. Or the act of winding is a mystical function somehow not part of the whole process.

Sometimes the smartest people are the dumbest sadly more often than we expect. Far too often theoretical sciences are proven wrong in real world applications. I'm not satisfied with the poorly outlined answers from some here when so much contradictory information exists. If I was unable to find so much contradictory information then we would even be having this discussion.

I have encountered many watches overwound to the point that they couldn't be let down because the back pressure was far exceeding the ability of the winding works to force the ratchet to a point the click could be released.


----------



## maillchort (Sep 1, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> I have encountered many watches overwound to the point that they couldn't be let down because the back pressure was far exceeding the ability of the winding works to force the ratchet to a point the click could be released.


But, and it's a big one, this is not what caused the watch to stop. 
So telling a customer that they overwound the watch, or using overwound in any way to describe its condition would be wrong.

Like if a customer came in with a smashed crystal, and the hands were mangled, and the watchmaker said, "see the problem here is a case of handmangle".


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> Joe - you are wasting your time mate. Our friend Dirt is the embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
> 
> Welcome to a world where everyone is an "expert" thanks to Google and Wikipedia, even though they don't understand in the slightest the things they are frantically looking up on the internet to support their argument.
> 
> The death of expertise indeed...


Seemingly some here would have us believe that a mainspring is some sort of miracle of science that falls outside the laws of physics and therefore cannot be stretched or that the magical forces found within a barrel somehow negate the forces on the MS that surprisingly must be wound tight to fit inside. Or the act of winding is a mystical function somehow not part of the whole process herein. Or probabilities exist that have nothing to do with pixey dust.

Sometimes the smartest people are the dumbest sadly more often than we expect. Far too often theoretical sciences are proven wrong in real world applications, they then go back to the math and alter it till it fits. I'm not satisfied with the haphazard non conclusional answers from some here when so much contradictory information exists.

No one including yourself have provided answers that cannot be rebutted on their face with simple logic from an ignorant net surfer for all the overly complicated terminology being spewed to mislead. Just because you don't like the rebuttals doesn't mean they lend no credence. If no contradictory information existed on this matter then we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

It appears on its face that you refute the term overwound simply to protect some imagined sanctity of professionalism which serves no purpose other than perhaps pad your own ego. Hopefully you do not consider yourself one of the smartest but I do smell a bit of holier than thou stench perhaps some frebreze can help with that. Yes that was an insult to counter yours Mate.


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

Let's try that again...

_*After everything you've written you've never explained how a stretched spring locks up a watch. What would stop the coil from "unraveling", for lack of a better word. It's wound around the arbor very tightly (too tightly according to you)what would cause it to bind? What is the mechanical process that would stop it from doing what it was designed to do?

*_Since you've come across so many of these watches, can you describe what happens when you pull off the barrel bridge on a watch that's been "overwound". Does the barrel just sit there because it's all jammed with overwindedness or does it shoot across the room? Once you've found all the parts (I'm very confident it shot across the room) Do you replace the mainspring because once it been stretched it's garbage right? If you just put it back into the barrel does it immediately jam up because of the additional length that caused the problem in the first place?

Just as a friendly tip, you should probably wear a face shield when you're working on one of your over wound watches... just saying.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> Seemingly some here would have us believe that a mainspring is some sort of miracle of science that falls outside the laws of physics and therefore cannot be stretched or that the magical forces found within a barrel somehow negate the forces on the MS that surprisingly must be wound tight to fit inside. Or the act of winding is a mystical function somehow not part of the whole process herein. Or probabilities exist that have nothing to do with pixey dust.


Oh, honey, no...that's not it at all. We've provided the explanation of how springs work, but you have insisted - without providing evidence - that the spring elongates.

Once again - the outside surface stretches while the inside surface compresses. The thicker the spring, the farther apart the inside and outside are, and thus the greater the tension and compression. That's how the spring as a whole stays the same length while storing energy.

It's not a rubber band. It's a spring.


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

dirtvictim said:


> I have encountered many watches overwound to the point that they couldn't be let down because the back pressure was far exceeding the ability of the winding works to force the ratchet to a point the click could be released.


If there's so much pressure on the click what's preventing that stored energy and torque from transferring to the watch gear train. The click holds one end of the spring in position and allows the other end to turn the barrel and ultimately power the watch. If there's so much stored power because of the overwound spring why won't it release it to run the watch? _*What is locking up the watch?*_

In 12 pages this question has been asked repeatedly and ignored by you every time.


----------



## arogle1stus (May 23, 2013)

WUSers
After carrying approved RR pocketwatches for many years in service of RRs. I say again I've never had ANY watch become over wound.
Biggest problems were often broke main spring and balance staffs. From watch pocket of bib overalls where RRers carried pocketwatches
RR Approved Pocketwatches, I found were delicate instruments but I somehow found ways to damage them, in spite of my efforts to do
the contrary. I was overjoyed when Americas RRs started to approve quartz wristwatches such as my Bulova 214 and later my Hamilton
model 505. I liked both the 214 and the 218.

X Traindriver Art


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Looking at Dirt's last 2 posts I think he may be entering an infinite loop. Could someone turn him off and on again please?


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

Joe Horner said:


> Looking at Dirt's last 2 posts I think he may be entering an infinite loop. Could someone turn him off and on again please?


You want him turned back on??


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

OnlyOneMore said:


> You want him turned back on??


Not particularly, but i don't want to be accused of bullying either


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

OnlyOneMore said:


> Let's try that again...
> 
> _*After everything you've written you've never explained how a stretched spring locks up a watch. What would stop the coil from "unraveling", for lack of a better word. It's wound around the arbor very tightly (too tightly according to you)what would cause it to bind? What is the mechanical process that would stop it from doing what it was designed to do?
> 
> ...


The ratchet locks the click to a point that it can't be let down due to excessive pressure. if they are wound so tight that they cannot be let down I simply throw them away and source another movement, I could risk using a mechanical advantage to overcome the binding but that can lead to other problems that are not cost effective. Sometimes depending on the watch I don't even bother to finish the repair and scrap the whole thing.


----------



## maillchort (Sep 1, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> The ratchet locks the click to a point that it can't be let down due to excessive pressure. if they are wound so tight that they cannot be let down I simply throw them away and source another movement, I could risk using a mechanical advantage to overcome the binding but that can lead to other problems that are not cost effective. Sometimes depending on the watch I don't even bother to finish the repair and scrap the whole thing.


Well, that's all folks

Sent from my SM-G901F using Tapatalk


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

dirtvictim said:


> The ratchet locks the click to a point that it can't be let down due to excessive pressure. if they are wound so tight that they cannot be let down I simply throw them away and source another movement, I could risk using a mechanical advantage to overcome the binding but that can lead to other problems that are not cost effective. Sometimes depending on the watch I don't even bother to finish the repair and scrap the whole thing.


_*OH MY GOD?! 
*_
CanI give you my address? I'd love to take these movements off your hands.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

GeneJockey said:


> Oh, honey, no...that's not it at all. We've provided the explanation of how springs work, but you have insisted - without providing evidence - that the spring elongates.
> 
> Once again - the outside surface stretches while the inside surface compresses. The thicker the spring, the farther apart the inside and outside are, and thus the greater the tension and compression. That's how the spring as a whole stays the same length while storing energy.
> 
> It's not a rubber band. It's a spring.


No one here provided proof to support their version of how a MS works but yours adds some value. A rubber band is a type of spring though, a spring is not only made of metal. I have repeatedly stated that a mainspring can be stretched and that it is this action that can attribute to overwinding. Some here deny that a MS can be stretched in length, that is knowingly false.


----------



## jsavis (Oct 16, 2014)

dirtvictim said:


> The ratchet locks the click to a point that it can't be let down due to excessive pressure. if they are wound so tight that they cannot be let down I simply throw them away and source another movement, I could risk using a mechanical advantage to overcome the binding but that can lead to other problems that are not cost effective. Sometimes depending on the watch I don't even bother to finish the repair and scrap the whole thing.


Folks, we've been using all this time to read through this thread, and some of us have used considerable amount of their valuable time to write answers to dirtvictim's postings. And now it turns out that he has just been joking all this time - that's the only conclusion I can make after the above message. For some reason I'm not laughing though...


----------



## Vicc (Jul 30, 2010)

I think a watch can definitely be overwound.

And doing so will result in a broken mainspring.


----------



## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

Let's for a minute assume you are right...a mainspring can be stretched. Of what relevance is this? Doing so will not stop the watch, at least until the spring breaks (and even then depending on where it breaks the watch may still run).

It still doesn't mean that the term "overwound" is in any way a useful diagnostic reference. It is essentially meaningless in any useful context, and is quite often very misleading.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Vicc said:


> I think a watch can definitely be overwound.
> 
> And doing so will result in a broken mainspring.


Don't encourage him!!! 

Besides, forcing things to that extent is more likely to lead to a broken stem, damaged wind wherls, or stripped crown long before you manage to break the spring. Unless the spring has a flaw, of course, in which case it's not "overwound", it's defective.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

jsavis said:


> Folks, we've been using all this time to read through this thread, and some of us have used considerable amount of their valuable time to write answers to dirtvictim's postings. And now it turns out that he has just been joking all this time - that's the only conclusion I can make after the above message. For some reason I'm not laughing though...


Don't be silly, if some of you feel you have wasted your time then it was you who took that time to either interject or impart knowledge whether it be to support your ego or defeat mine. No one forced you to respond here or read any of it. Take personal responsibility for your own actions don't blame someone else. 
Who's is joking? All along I have stood by the fact that a MS can be stretched and that can lead to overwinding. There is nothing in physics to suggests otherwise so it is true. The term stretch may be a pedestrian term to others with superior intellect that prefer elastic deformation but the term is apropos nonetheless. Those of superior intellect argue the minutia of technical terminology to try and confuse or distract, don't fall for it.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> The ratchet locks the click to a point that it can't be let down due to excessive pressure. if they are wound so tight that they cannot be let down I simply throw them away and source another movement, I could risk using a mechanical advantage to overcome the binding but that can lead to other problems that are not cost effective. Sometimes depending on the watch I don't even bother to finish the repair and scrap the whole thing.


So, it never occurred to you to remove the balance, use pegwood to immobilize the escape wheel, remove the pallet, and then let the escape wheel spin to let the mainspring down?


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

GeneJockey said:


> So, it never occurred to you to remove the balance, use pegwood to immobilize the escape wheel, remove the pallet, and then let the escape wheel spin to let the mainspring down?


The escape wheel won't spin... the mainspring is over wound and locked up. You obviously haven't been paying attention. Please reread the thread.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Archer said:


> Let's for a minute assume you are right...a mainspring can be stretched. Of what relevance is this? Doing so will not stop the watch, at least until the spring breaks (and even then depending on where it breaks the watch may still run).
> 
> It still doesn't mean that the term "overwound" is in any way a useful diagnostic reference. It is essentially meaningless in any useful context, and is quite often very misleading.


Science is about discovery. The term overwound would be a tool for the brain that leads to discovery of other issues, no different than any other term applied to a condition encountered and if defined as such would not be misleading. So it can be useful in diagnoses, however after having worked on watches so long the thought process tends to envision the fault rather quickly bypassing the steps that lead to discovery. Be honest if someone comes to you and says their watch is overwound you immediately critique the term but also are visualizing potential problems and solutions, so that exchange has lead to discovery.

I am more after the how and why. To answer the question of the MS stretching leads us to other discovery and further answers like the act of winding sets about a series of events that may lead to breaking, stretching, causing the works to lock up "overwind", causing internal problems etc. without the act of winding then none of these other events would occur, not to say those problem do not exist they just have not revealed themselves yet and may never until winding occurs.

It is human nature to prove or disprove the existence of a thing, that is my intention here. If it can be proven that a MS stretches then it can be postulated that the state of being overwound is a result of it. If we reach a conclusion before all possibilities are exhausted then we haven't done our due diligence.

I may push back at you a lot but to be to be honest I respect that you know more than I in terms of the technical aspect of watches.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

GeneJockey said:


> So, it never occurred to you to remove the balance, use pegwood to immobilize the escape wheel, remove the pallet, and then let the escape wheel spin to let the mainspring down?


I have and in some cases this revealed that other problems existed that rendered repair less than cost effective so I quit doing that. I also assumed that doing so may cause excessive wear on staffs and wheels that may lead to problems in the future that could be avoided, I could be wrong about that but I prefer to err on the side of caution.


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

Just bizarre... Really, truely bizarre...


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

OnlyOneMore said:


> The escape wheel won't spin... the mainspring is over wound and locked up. You obviously haven't been paying attention. Please reread the thread.


He is correct here in his questioning and seeking an answer based on the input I provided in this instance. Overwound is another separate problem/symptom that may or may not affect the operation of the escape wheel depending on issues within the works typically some sort of binding that has caused the MS to be overwound.


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

I'm out. 

It has become increasingly obvious to me this is some sort of psychiatric issue and I'm done.


----------



## jsavis (Oct 16, 2014)

dirtvictim said:


> All along I have stood by the fact that a MS can be stretched and that can lead to overwinding. There is nothing in physics to suggests otherwise so it is true. The term stretch may be a pedestrian term to others with superior intellect that prefer elastic deformation but the term is apropos nonetheless. Those of superior intellect argue the minutia of technical terminology to try and confuse or distract, don't fall for it.


Well, I don't think these questions of stretching and other technical terminology are the core of this discussion any more. What's more interesting is that we have here a watchmaker or hobbyist who diagnoses watch movements as being overwound, and based on this diagnosis tosses them to the garbage bin.



dirtvictim said:


> Who's is joking?


I sincerely hope that you are.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Ok, had a few minutes spare before closing the shop today so decided to try it out and see if experimental results agreed with my calculations several pages back that suggested you'd break something else before damaging a (non-faulty) mainspring by winding.

Please excuse the poor videography - only had my phone and had to balance it on a card payments sign in lieu of a tripod


----------



## maillchort (Sep 1, 2010)

Joe Horner said:


> Ok, had a few minutes spare before closing the shop today so decided to try it out and see if experimental results agreed with my calculations several pages back that suggested you'd break something else before damaging a (non-faulty) mainspring by winding.
> 
> Please excuse the poor videography - only had my phone and had to balance it on a card payments sign in lieu of a tripod


Oh Joe, that's a nice effort but what you didn't show us, perhaps intentionally?- is how _ locked up the click is _. The conspiracy continues....


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

jsavis said:


> Well, I don't think these questions of stretching and other technical terminology are the core of this discussion any more. What's more interesting is that we have here a watchmaker or hobbyist who diagnoses watch movements as being overwound, and based on this diagnosis tosses them to the garbage bin.
> 
> I sincerely hope that you are.


Ok I got ya. No I seriously am not joking, I simply toss them if they have no salvage value or throw them into a junk pile to be sold off if they rarer mvts. Although I may adjust that thought process in the future. I used to have drawers of perhaps a thousand mvts in various states but just got away from that mindset and started eliminating waste. I felt like I was just hoarding stuff I almost never used. 
After servicing or repairing well over 4000 watches I know which mvts are worth the expense or are just expendable.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> I have and *in some cases this revealed that other problems existed* that rendered repair less than cost effective so I quit doing that. I also assumed that doing so may cause excessive wear on staffs and wheels that may lead to problems in the future that could be avoided, I could be wrong about that but I prefer to err on the side of caution.


Ooo! So close! You almost got it! The 'other problems' are, in fact, THE problem. They are what allowed the owner to wind the mainspring up tight. If the train won't run with the pallet out, THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM. You don't have to appeal to nonsensical 'Overwinding' as the explanation.

WRT excessive wear - you think the train pivots, spinning through a single full wind-down of the mainspring, will experience excessive wear, even though that's pretty much what they do every day that they're run?

O-o-o-kay.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> ... To answer the question of the MS stretching leads us to other discovery and further answers like the act of winding sets about a series of events that may lead to breaking, stretching, causing the works to lock up "overwind", causing internal problems etc. without the act of winding then none of these other events would occur, not to say those problem do not exist they just have not revealed themselves yet and may never until winding occurs....


You'll find that cart works better with the horse in front.

The mainspring being wound up tight doesn't cause the train to lock up. The train being locked up allows the mainspring to be wound up tight.

In a way, though, I guess you have a point about the problems not being revealed if the watch isn't wound. You'll never know whether a watch will run if you don't wind it. Similarly, you won't generally know that your car won't start, if you don't try to start it. You won't find out your computer won't boot properly if you don't switch it on.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> Ok, had a few minutes spare before closing the shop today so decided to try it out and see if experimental results agreed with my calculations several pages back that suggested you'd break something else before damaging a (non-faulty) mainspring by winding.
> 
> Please excuse the poor videography - only had my phone and had to balance it on a card payments sign in lieu of a tripod


I like where you are going with this. Experimentation leads to discovery. The premise was however a non running watch and if the mainspring gets stretched beyond its predetermined length. Primarily relegated to non clutched mainsprings. A non running watch falls outside normal parameters creating a whole new set of rules to be discovered in terms of effects of winding. 
Redo the experiment using a non runner non clutched and then see if the click locks to a point that you cannot release it, to me that is overwound. In theory we would also need to measure the MS prior to the experiment and compare that measurement to afterwards to see how much if any permanent stretch (plastic deformation) occurs.
I am trying to adhere to set parameters, if you remember the OP was referring to a pocket watch pictured. Please do not ruin a good watch if you engage in this experimentation. I'm sure I have a few non clutched mvts to experiment on, I may give it a try as well.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

> Redo the experiment* using a non runner* non clutched and then see if the click locks to a point that you cannot release it, to me that is overwound.


Once again, the mainspring is wound up tight because the train is locked up. The train is not locked up because the mainspring is wound up tight.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

GeneJockey said:


> Similarly, you won't generally know that your car won't start, if you don't try to start it.


I had that a few weeks back.

I phoned the garage and told them that it had been over-started, they told me i was talking crap and said it was a flat battery. When I tried to explain that my diagnosis was right because i wouldn't have known about the flat battery if I hadn't tried to start it, they gave me their competitor's number and suggested I waste their time instead


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

dirtvictim said:


> Redo the experiment using a non runner non clutched and then see if the click locks to a point that you cannot release it


What on earth is the point of experimenting to see if winding a non-running watch will stop it being able to run? _IT'S ALREADY A NON-RUNNER FFS!!!!!_


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

Joe Horner said:


> I had that a few weeks back.
> 
> I phoned the garage and told them that it had been over-started, they told me i was talking crap and said it was a flat battery. When I tried to explain that my diagnosis was right because i wouldn't have known about the flat battery if I hadn't tried to start it, they gave me their competitor's number and suggested I waste their time instead


My first car was a 1966 MGB. The starter drive in the first generation MGBs would sometimes improperly engage the flywheel and mainspring of the starter drive would wind up tight, and you couldn't start the car. But the problem was improper engagement of the starter drive gear with the ring gear on the flywheel, not the mainspring being wound up tight. My MGB was NOT overwound.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> What on earth is the point of experimenting to see if winding a non-running watch will stop it being able to run? _IT'S ALREADY A NON-RUNNER FFS!!!!!_


The premise is not and never was that overwinding will cause it to stop however that could also happen if parts break inside due to winding pressures. 
The premise is, does overwinding stretch the MS and cause the click to lock up to a point it cannot be released at least not safely, that was what I was saying I have encountered. You know that was the premise all this time don't you? 
This experiment needs to be controlled and adhere to the set parameters to be a fair trial. Mvt non running and MS non clutch otherwise what is the point of the experiment?


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

GeneJockey said:


> My first car was a 1966 MGB. The starter drive in the first generation MGBs would sometimes improperly engage the flywheel and mainspring of the starter drive would wind up tight, and you couldn't start the car. But the problem was improper engagement of the starter drive gear with the ring gear on the flywheel, not the mainspring being wound up tight. My MGB was NOT overwound.


so the MS on that mgb pushed the drive gear into the flywheel on that one or was it a solenoid. 
I had an old Honda motorcycle back in the day that I had to push start all the time, was the starter bad?


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> I had that a few weeks back.
> 
> I phoned the garage and told them that it had been over-started, they told me i was talking crap and said it was a flat battery. When I tried to explain that my diagnosis was right because i wouldn't have known about the flat battery if I hadn't tried to start it, they gave me their competitor's number and suggested I waste their time instead


Terrible but cute analogy. If you over started your car it may lead to excessive wear on the seloniod, the pinion gear. Overheat field coils, It could also lead to overheating other wiring and yes a dead battery. 
Come on you can do better that was bad bad. 
An unwound watch is right twice a day does that mean it is working? A stopped watch may actually not be broken but there is only one way to find out.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> The premise is not and never was that overwinding will cause it to stop however that could also happen if parts break inside due to winding pressures.
> The premise is, does overwinding stretch the MS and cause the click to lock up to a point it cannot be released at least not safely, that was what I was saying I have encountered. You know that was the premise all this time don't you?
> This experiment needs to be controlled and adhere to the set parameters to be a fair trial. Mvt non running and MS non clutch otherwise what is the point of the experiment?


I could swear those goalposts used to be in a different place....


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

GeneJockey said:


> I could swear those goalposts used to be in a different place....


Naw the ball just got bigger but never got dropped.


----------



## taike (Mar 7, 2014)

troll, delusional, or delusional troll


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

dirtvictim said:


> Terrible but cute analogy.


It wasn't a serious analogy. It was a sarcastic dig at your absurd and unsupportable position in this against all the evidence, knowledge (theoretical AND practical) and expertise you've been presented with.

As such, it didn't need the pseudo-analysis you gave, but thank you for trying anyway.


----------



## jsavis (Oct 16, 2014)

Joe Horner said:


> It wasn't a serious analogy. It was a sarcastic dig at your absurd and unsupportable position in this against all the evidence, knowledge (theoretical AND practical) and expertise you've been presented with.


Joe, after these two postings you should have known that sarcasm will never work in this case:



OnlyOneMore said:


> The escape wheel won't spin... the mainspring is over wound and locked up. You obviously haven't been paying attention. Please reread the thread.





dirtvictim said:


> He is correct here in his questioning and seeking an answer based on the input I provided in this instance. Overwound is another separate problem/symptom that may or may not affect the operation of the escape wheel depending on issues within the works typically some sort of binding that has caused the MS to be overwound.


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi Joe,



Joe Horner said:


> It wasn't a serious analogy...


Maybe, but at least it demonstrated that it is no good idea to replace the mainspring of a car by a thingy, which needs fuel and a battery - just to prevent overwinding.

Anyway, many believe in the big bang and the accellerating expansion of the universe, although it requires so dubious things like dark matter and energy. So how can we deny overwinding, just because known phyics make it impossible. Maybe the yet not found dark thingies sit between the coils of mainsprings, and can only be noticed after smoking the right stuff.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> It wasn't a serious analogy. It was a sarcastic dig at your absurd and unsupportable position in this against all the evidence, knowledge (theoretical AND practical) and expertise you've been presented with.
> 
> As such, it didn't need the pseudo-analysis you gave, but thank you for trying anyway.


for your sarcasm to have effect it must first have comparison and it failed in that respect. No data has been provided that removes all possibility until such a time that happens then the possibility remains unyielding to the opinions of sheep.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

dirtvictim said:


> for your sarcasm to have effect it must first have comparison and it failed in that respect. No data has been provided that removes all possibility until such a time that happens then the possibility remains unyielding to the opinions of sheep.


????

Now you're just picking random words out of the dictionary, aren't you?


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> for your sarcasm to have effect it must first have comparison and it failed in that respect. *No data has been provided that removes all possibility until such a time that happens then the possibility remains unyielding to the opinions of sheep.*


Dude - here's how Science works: there is an hypothesis, well supported by all the available data. Someone - that would be you - suggests an alternative hypothesis. It is up to that someone - that would be you - to provide data that not only support the new hypothesis, but also refute the original one.

In other words, it's not up to us to disprove your assertion. It's up to you to disprove that accepted - and well supported - hypothesis. Your new hypothesis must do a better job of explaining all the available data, AND you must provide data that demonstrates the old hypothesis is false.

And before you try to tell me this isn't how Science works, allow me to inform you that Science is what I've been doing pretty successfully for nearly 4 decades.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

GeneJockey said:


> Dude - here's how Science works: there is an hypothesis, well supported by all the available data. Someone - that would be you - suggests an alternative hypothesis. It is up to that someone - that would be you - to provide data that not only support the new hypothesis, but also refute the original one.
> 
> In other words, it's not up to us to disprove your assertion. It's up to you to disprove that accepted - and well supported - hypothesis. Your new hypothesis must do a better job of explaining all the available data, AND you must provide data that demonstrates the old hypothesis is false.
> 
> And before you try to tell me this isn't how Science works, allow me to inform you that Science is what I've been doing pretty successfully for nearly 4 decades.


Good so I have already presented the fact that for many years the term overwound was widely used and published by real watchmakers. But assuredly the repairmen here know more than the old master watchmakers of the past. Not likely.


----------



## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

dirtvictim said:


> Good so I have already presented the fact that for many years *the term overwound was widely used and published by real watchmakers.* But assuredly the repairmen here know more than the old master watchmakers of the past. Not likely.


Prove it. Show us in the old watchmaking books where 'overwound' is defined as a cause of watch breakage.


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi there,



GeneJockey said:


> Prove it. Show us in the old watchmaking books where 'overwound' is defined as a cause of watch breakage.


This would be no proof - distributing nonsense by whom ever proves nothing.

Nothing can be proved to be non-existent. So it's up to dirtvictim either to prove overwinding with accepted physics (not with published fairy tales), or to gather 12 followers and establish the religion of the overwinder. Like all religions this would require no proof, just faith.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

Roland Ranfft said:


> ...Nothing can be proved to be non-existent...
> Regards, Roland Ranfft


Herr Doktor Ranfft...just love this choice of words...may I quote you on this...?

Regards, BG


----------



## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

This thread is very entertaining...and gives one pause for thought and reflection to wit:








Regards all, 
BG


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

It's taken some time, but I get it... it's wrong and stupid, but I finally get what he's been saying.

Let's say you are brought a watch that due to an issue (Not the mainspring) is not running. In an attempt to get it working the owner wound it until it was fully wound and then forced the crown and caused the click to step one more tooth on the ratchet wheel. At this point the main spring can turn no further as it's fully wound and tight and it's difficult (not impossible) to let the watch down because to release the click you must advance the spring slightly and that can be difficult to do.

Now according to dirtvictim the watch is now overwound and the spring is obviously stretched because it allowed the click to advance that extra tooth...which we all know is false/stupid

The spring is not stretched. It's wound tightly
The watch is not overwound and the problem with the watch is not in anyway associated with the spring. It's wound tightly, but the mainspring is not releasing the power to the watch because of some problem elsewhere in the train.

Most of us would let the mainspring down (probably several ways to do this) and then investigate where the real issue is
Dirtvictim on the other hand would at this point throw the watch in the garbage because it's beyond repair due to the locked up click.

At this point would anyone like to take their watch to dirtvictim for repair if he would be so kind as to give us the name of where he plies his wares?


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Roland Ranfft said:


> [...] with accepted physics


Will this do for starters? Seeing as it's basically the same physics that stops bridges falling down I think it can be counted as "accepted"?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The weakest part of the winding stem is normally the groove where the setting lever sits. The diameter at that point is typically about 1mm.

When a shaft is subjected to torque, as the stem is during winding, the maximum shear stress occurs on the surface. It is is calculated as:

s = 2T/( π r^3) [1]

Where s is the shear stress, T is the applied torque, and r is the shaft radius.

If s exceeds the shear strength of the material then the stem will break. The shear strength of steels (empirically) can be approximated as 0.75x the tensile strength. Medium carbon steels, as often used for stems, have tensile strengths of up to about 1200 MPa. that gives a maximum shear strength of about 900MPa. (note: 1MPa = 1 Newton per square millimetre)

Substituting and rearranging in equation [1] we get:

T = 900 π r^3 / 2 
= 450 π r^3

So, the maximum torque that could be applied to a typical stem without breaking it at the (typical) 0.5mm radius of the setting lever groove is:

T = 450 x π x 0.125

*Max torque @ crown = 56.25 Nmm*

That's about 0.5 lb.in

As a sanity check, that's a half pound weight hung from a 1 inch lever attached to the crown, which "feels" about right. Turn it any harder than that and - assuming nothing else gives first - you'll break the stem.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, the absolute hardest "winding force" that can be applied is a torque of (say) 60Nmm at the crown.

We'll assume no frictional losses through the winding gears because they'd only serve to reduce the risk of damaging a mainspring by reducing the force transmitted to it.

Typical winding gears have about a 6 or 7 to 1 overall ratio. that means, for a torque of 60Nmm applied at the crown, a torque of 7 x 60 = 420Nmm will be applied to the barrel arbor.

At full wind that torque must be resisted completely by tension in the "tail" of the mainspring - the part that connects the tightly wound centre to the inside of the barrel.

That tail runs approximately tangential to the bulk of the spring, so the force required to resist a 420Nmm torque = 420 / r where r is the radius of the spring coiled around the arbor.

If we have a 10mm diameter barrel, with a correctly sized mainspring, then that radius will be about 3.7mm

So, at the point of breaking the winding stem, the spring will be experiencing a tensile force of

420 / 3.7 = 113.5N

*max load on mainspring = 113.5N*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nivaflex 45/18, as used for mainsprings, has an ultimate tensile strength (UTS) of between 1100 and 2500MPa depending on thickness.

The yield strength YS (the point where permanent "stretching" happens isn't listed but will 90% or more of the ultimate strength for high strength steels like Nivaflex.

Using a mid-range UTS of 1800MPa, yield strength of 90% UTS, and a typical mainspring with dimensions of 1.2 x 0.1mm:

Cross sectional area = 1.2 x 0.1mm 
= 0.12mm^2

Load for failure = UTS x area
= 1800 x 0.12

*Load for failure = 216N*

Load for permanent "stretching" = YS x 0.12
= 0.9 x 1800 x .12

*Load to cause permanent "stretch" = 194N*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But *the highest force we can apply without breaking the stem is 113.5N*, which is only 52% of what's needed to break the spring and only 58% of what would be needed to cause yield (ie: permanent "stretch")

So, no,* you can't break or cause any sort of "stretching" damage to the mainspring by winding because other parts will break first*.


----------



## OnlyOneMore (Feb 28, 2018)

What a bunch of old "watchmaker" mumbo-jumbo.


----------



## maillchort (Sep 1, 2010)

Dirt, I've been in the trade 20 years and know/ knew a lot of pros 20-40 years ny senior and not one would ever use overwound to describe a watch's condition. I shudder to think what state the supposed 4k watches you've worked on are in, especially since it seems most of your posts are for sale threads.

As joe made abundantly clear, you simply cannot stretch a ms length.


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

Joe Horner said:


> Will this do for starters? Seeing as it's basically the same physics that stops bridges falling down I think it can be counted as "accepted"?
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


Love the tech explanation. You Mech Eng types

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## jdrichard01 (Mar 6, 2018)

So a guy from the office gave me a pocket watch to repair and the first thing he said was "I thing the watch is overwound". I think this is the term used by the average Joe. 

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


----------



## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

Nice job. I think though you forgot the factor pi in your computation of the maximum torque. 450 * pi * 0.125 is about 176, not 56. Not sure what that does to the conclusion. 

And I'm amazed that this thread is still going.


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Joe Horner said:


> Will this do for starters?
> 
> So, no,* you can't break or cause any sort of "stretching" damage to the mainspring by winding because other parts will break first*.


You are hilarious. None of this explains why thousands if not tens of thousands of mainsprings were broken by winding forces over the hundred or so years prior to modern MS which you are mistakenly using for your model.
You love to play at math superiority but never offer to step up to applied physics where things are actually proven. The world awaits your live results until then you are just talking out the side of your mouth. Math doesn't make you a watchmaker and your parlor tricks do nothing to impress me, maybe some sheep here fall for it though. I will defer to the real master watchmakers not those that just play at it. You guys can continue to pat yourselves on the back for your superior intellect but I don't buy it. I won't respond again to the ridiculous attempts here to rewrite history.


----------



## taike (Mar 7, 2014)

dirtvictim said:


> ..I won't respond again ...


One can only hope


----------



## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Roland Ranfft said:


> Hi there,
> 
> This would be no proof - distributing nonsense by whom ever proves nothing.
> 
> ...


reading is fundamental not fun for the mental, try reading sometime.. some here are so smart they out smart themselves without knowing it. There an old saying "you're not mart, you're not k-mart, you're not wal-mart, you're not even S-mart". You don't always need physics to prove something if the old master watchmakers have already proven it and they have. I'm done here some are simply liars and deniers. 
Because they are subjected to constant stress cycles, up until the 1960s mainsprings generally broke from metal fatigue long before other parts of the timepiece. They were considered expendable items.[8] This often happened at the end of the winding process, when the spring is wound as tightly as possible around the arbor, with no space between the coils. When manually winding, it is easy to reach this point unexpectedly and put excessive pressure on the spring. Another cause was temperature changes. If a watch was fully wound in the evening and the temperature dropped at night, without any slack between the coils the thermal contraction of the long spring could break it loose from its attachments at one end. In earlier times, watch repairers noted that changes in the weather brought in a rash of watches with broken mainsprings. Broken mainsprings were the largest cause of watch repairs until the 1960s.[9] Since then, the improvements in spring metallurgy mentioned above have made broken mainsprings rare


----------



## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

Ahem, didn't you forget something? [8] & [9]?


----------



## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

A quick google search found a bunch of people copying from one another, and from Wikipedia.

A bit further down in the mainspring article I found this:

"The myth of 'overwinding'
Watches and clocks are sometimes found stopped with the mainspring fully wound, which led to a myth that winding a spring-driven timepiece all the way up damages it.[SUP][12][/SUP] Several problems can cause this type of breakdown, but it is almost never due to "overwinding", as timepieces are designed to handle excessive winding force.[SUP][12][/SUP] Watch movements, in particular, require regular cleaning and lubrication, and the normal result of neglecting to get a watch cleaned is a watch stopped at full wind. As the watch movement collects dirt and the oil dries up, friction increases, so that the mainspring doesn't have the force to turn the watch at the end of its normal running period, and it stops prematurely. If the owner continues to wind and use the watch without servicing, eventually the friction force reaches the 'flat' part of the torque curve, and quickly a point is reached where the mainspring doesn't have the force to run the watch even at full wind, so the watch stops with the mainspring fully wound. The watch needs service, but the problem is caused by a dirty movement or other defect, not "overwinding"."
Reference 12 is


Gainey, Michael. "You can wind a mainspring too tight". _Clock Myths_. Master Clock Repair Gainey's website. Retrieved May 23, 2014. 

Sometimes reading helps.


----------



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

LCheapo said:


> Nice job. I think though you forgot the factor pi in your computation of the maximum torque. 450 * pi * 0.125 is about 176, not 56. Not sure what that does to the conclusion.


Fair question, but in this case it doesn't apply.

Usually, when you see torque calculations, they're concerned with the transmission of power or the doing of work (transfer of energy). In that case, the work done is the force multiplied by the distance it moves, so you end up with W = F x r x (2Pi r) x 360/a where a is the angle turned. That's what you'd need if you were calculating the energy stored in the spring (although it'd be complicated by the fact that r varies all the time as you wind)

For power calculations it's basically the same but it becomes the angle turned per second (the angular velicity rather than distance).

In this case, as we're considering the point where it's fully wound, there is no angular movement and the formula is simply torque = force x radius of application.



dirtvictim said:


> You are hilarious. None of this explains why thousands if not tens of thousands of mainsprings were broken by winding forces over the hundred or so years prior to modern MS which you are mistakenly using for your model.
> You love to play at math superiority but never offer to step up to applied physics where things are actually proven.


I use modern mainsprings because the material specs are easily available. The ultimate strengths of older blued steel isn't that much different, but it's not a standardised material so getting actual figures would involve experimentally measuring a particular spring, and the results would only hold for that particular spring.

Besides, "modern" in this context covers nearly the last half century of watchmaking which includes most of the pieces that are allegedly "overwound" when they come in.

Regardless, the reason for breakage is fatigue failure, _not_ applying too much force. Fatigue failure is a whole extra (statistical) analysis which I'm happy to go into if you like, but I suspect you'd just go "Ohh, it's all mathsy, that doesn't prove anything" so don't really see the point!

As for your last contention, what planet are you on where physics doesn't involve maths? What I've offered above _is_ the physics. It's the physics that keeps bridges from collapsing, keeps the wings on aeroplanes, and stops the drive shafts on your car from breaking every time you pull away!

It happens to involve maths because _that's what physics does_!!!

Besides, you ask for physics (with no maths involved!) then base _your_ argument on advertising brochures and user instructions!!!!!!!!


----------



## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

H Joe,



Joe Horner said:


> ...then base _your_ argument on advertising brochures and user instructions!!!!!!!!


Yes, and that's why I believe you waste your time. People who draw their wisdom from advertising will never hear the bang, and you can't teach them nothing substantial. But they are indispensable for economy.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


----------



## trim (Mar 22, 2010)

I am impressed at the restraint shown by several members in response to the directly insulting comments made by dirt victim.


----------



## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

I find it easy when someone is on my ignore list.


----------



## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Some people use Wikipedia like a drunk uses a lamp post...more for support than illumination.

Over the past few months we've noticed a significant increase in the number of personal attacks and abusive comments around the community. We encourage our members to voice their opinions and argue their points. We expect disagreement, but we do not expect our members to turn on each other. If you feel a member is being intentionally provocative, obstinate, condescending, dismissive, and generally snarky you have the choice to disengage and ignore the member. As a matter of fact, if you don't you're in violation of our rule 10 (Don’t engage in dialogue with a troll or a spammer. Report them to the Moderators or use the “report post” button located in each post). If your willpower is weak we've provided an 'ignore' feature that will help you overcome temptation. Please help us maintain a civil level of discourse.

That being said, this one is done folks.


----------

