# Manual/Hand wind Chronograph



## BarrioWilly (Nov 12, 2011)

Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere; I have done several searches to no avail. From lurking on the forums for the last year or so, I've finally decided to save up for my first "big boy" watch - a mechanical Pilot's chronograph. I am most drawn to the traditional German fleiger stylings - particularly the:

Archimede Chrono








Damasko DC56








or Sinn 356








I believe all of these chronos feature the Val. 7750 movement (as do most all of the quality mechanical chronos out there), which is seemingly the most rock-steady auto chrono movement out there.

But I am wondering if there is a quality hand-wind chronograph out there that looks something along the lines of these pictured above. Nothing against automatics, but they don't seem to have the maintenance-free reputation of hand-winds. Also, since it will be more of a weekend watch for me (I work in a shop most days), I will have to wind it up no matter what.

If an automatic chrono is the only option, then I will go that way, but if there are other options, I would like to check them out.

Thanks,
Chris


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## MoreToasties (Jul 16, 2010)

If you're interested in a vintage styled watch, check out the Seagull 1963 reissue. It's a hand wound military chrono and you can find it for around $200 - you might consider buying it while saving up for something like the Sinn you mentioned.


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## watchma (Jul 11, 2012)

BarrioWilly said:


> hand-wind chronograph


These two movements (Poljot3133 and Valjoux 7734) are chronograph manual wind
https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/poljot-3133-vs-valjoux-7734-lysanderxii-224306.html


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

If you would consider a Poljot 3133, you can buy one brand new for around 500. I love mine. Got it LNIB for 275 dollars. It is insanely nice for that price. I will post pics later.


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## BarrioWilly (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm not really interested in going the Chinese or Russian route with this watch, if I was, I would probably go the way of the Ticino chronograph reviewed here: 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ticino-vintage-pilot-chronograph-646742.html

Is this "Sea-Gull TY2903" based off a Swiss movement?

I much prefer the look of 3 sub-dials on chronographs (especially in the 6, 9, and 12 positions), so I've veered away from the 3133 movements. I'd like to stick with a German/Swiss made watch, but like the idea of a manual hand-wind, a (theoretically) thinner case, and less-finicky movement.


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

An impeccable choice ... though I consider the Sinn 103 the more classical Sinn aviation chrono than the 356/358. Steinhart could be added - similar to the Archimede, and Stowa have a nice subdued chronograpgh, too, which is somewhat more imaginative and unique than the others.


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## Kungfucowboy (Feb 26, 2010)

> Is this "Sea-Gull TY2903" based off a Swiss movement?


Yes Tianjin watch factory (now called sea-gull) bought the rights an machinery for the Venus 175 back in the 60's to make watches for government pilots(in China at the time that was all pilots) Seagull (slightly) updated the movement and restarted production in the 2000's. It is essentially a vintage swiss coulmn wheel chronograph made in china.


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## boeing767 (Nov 18, 2009)

Another similair looking watch from Steinhart. Very decent Swiss watches, I own a Aviator GMT and I'm still in the race to buy this one:
Nav B Chrono II black DLC - Chronographen - Steinhart Watches








Yes it's an automatic 7750....


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## johnj (Apr 13, 2006)

While not a traditional fleiger, but it did go to the moon, the Omega Speedmaster is known for it's handwind movement.


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## David Woo (Feb 12, 2006)

Sinn had a handwind model of the 103 a few years back, with a 7760?
Found a photo on the web:


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

David Woo said:


> Sinn had a handwind model of the 103 a few years back, with a 7760?


You referring to this... made by SINN(not the current SINN which is owned by a larger watch group)?


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

Ed.YANG said:


> (not the current SINN which is owned by a larger watch group)?


This is not true. Sinn the watch company is owned 100% by Lothar Schmidt, CEO and owner, and NOT by any larger watch group.


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

Crusader said:


> This is not true. Sinn the watch company is owned 100% by Lothar Schmidt, CEO and owner, and NOT by any larger watch group.


Erm... i'm quite confused here... The current day SINN is own by Lothar Schmidt who's invloved with IWC? According to this... 


> In 1994, Helmut Sinn sold the company to Lothar Schmidt, who constructed watches in the Porsche-Design Team in the 1970s and later on was authorized officer of the IWC. Among other things, Schmidt designed watch cases made from titanium for the IWC and after 1990 he was responsible for the rebuilding of the IWC brand A. Lange & Söhne.
> Schmidt changed the name of the company to *Sinn* - Spezialuhren zu Frankfurt - (special watches from Frankfurt) and created a new range of watch models.


which i quote from... Sinn (watchmaker) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The original SINN creator is now the owner of Guinand?


> After Helmut Sinn had sold his watch company and brand Sinn, he took over the majority of "Guinand Watch Co SA" in 1996 and with the brands Chronosport, *Guinand* and the pocket watch brand Jubilar again followed his vision of a watch, which should be "clearly legible, of high quality and still affordable".


from... Guinand - Watches Wiki, The Best Watches And Watch Brands


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

Lothar Schmidt quit IWC (itself part of the Richemont watch conglomerate) when he acquired the Sinn watch company from Helmut Sinn who went on to found Guinand and a few other brands (now all merged with Guinand). Nowhere does your quote indicate that Lothar Schmidt continued to work for IWC after he acquired Sinn.


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## watchma (Jul 11, 2012)

Ed.YANG said:


> According to this...


I'll be kind and say Wikipedia is not always accurate or up to date its fair to say


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## DragonDan (Dec 22, 2009)

What? It was posted on the internet, it has to be true! (-:

To the original poster, any of those three watches are very well made, you'd be quite happy with them. I like the V7750, and have two watches with that movement (both by Gallet). One is my daily wear watch, and it doesn't get babied - it gets used! I've not had any issues with it. It was fully serviced about a year ago, it is originally from about 1984


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## Quartersawn (Nov 20, 2008)

The Hanhart 1939 Fliegerchronograph is as close to a traditional German chrono as you can get without buying a vintage WWII version. Mine has a hand winding Valjoux 7760 (the movement it is not a flyback like the originals).


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## JML (Dec 21, 2006)

Here's the limited edition Aerowatch from Louis Erard, which was sold by Timeworks (only 100 made). Beautifully decorated Val. 7760, but no display back. Similar to the Hanhart, but with "normal" symmetrical pushers. Major case differences are that the Aerowatch case is brushed (not bead blasted), the Aerowatch bezel doesn't rotate, and it has a more modern lug design. The Hanhart's lugs are flat and thin, where these start as deep as the case and taper. Hanhart does have a new model with similar lug design, the Pioneer, but they seem to be autos.


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## BarrioWilly (Nov 12, 2011)

johnj said:


> While not a traditional fleiger, but it did go to the moon, the Omega Speedmaster is known for it's handwind movement.


What's the hand-wind movement in the Omega Speedmaster? Is it an in-house movement or one that can be found in other watches?


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## BarrioWilly (Nov 12, 2011)

While I can appreciate the beauty of the Hanhart and Aerowatch, they aren't really the look I'm drawn to - so perhaps I was off to say I am interested in a tradition German flieger. I like Archimede, Damasko and Sinn's modern take on traditional designs. Or maybe it is more accurate to say I am drawn to the German "function-forward" design style. I don't like things too flashy. But I definitely prefer 3 subdials to 2, and I don't really like the coin edge bezel. 

I have to admit the Steinhart designs look great too, although, I seem to remember seeing Steinharts for sale on Amazon, and my Type 4 wing (anybody else into the Enneagram?) won't let me buy a watch that every Tom, Dick and Harry are likely to have on their wrist (which is why I haven't been able to get into Hamiltons - even though I'm a newbie to the watch world looking for good value in quality watch). 

I really love the hands on the Sinn, thus, it's probably my leader, but I'm beginning to think the 38.5mm case is a little small for my tastes. So I might lean towards a 358. I don't really like the rotating bezel on the Sinn 103's (it just opens things up to the diver world and too many other watches...you gotta shrink the sample size somehow). Tangent - Do the Sinn's only come with the super high domed crystal? Honestly, it's a bit ridiculous to me. No one is actually diving with their Sinn, necessitating the added depth rating for domed crystals. And the trade off is you're more likely to scratch the crystal and you can't read the time from weird angles because of distortion. If they offered a flat crystal I'd be sold on the Sinn. 

It looks like a V7750 is the movement I'll be buying - since I prefer 3 subdials in the 6, 9, and 12 position. They certainly have a good reputation. Thanks for the feedback.


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

The domed crystal on the Sinn has nothing to do with the WR rating but tries to preserve the traditional curvature of an acrylic crystal while offering the superior scratch resistance of sapphire.

Dive bezel - monodirectional, aviation bezel - bidirectional. Sinn and Damasko are among the few companies realizing the difference.


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## BarrioWilly (Nov 12, 2011)

Crusader said:


> The domed crystal on the Sinn has nothing to do with the WR rating but tries to preserve the traditional curvature of an acrylic crystal while offering the superior scratch resistance of sapphire.
> 
> Dive bezel - monodirectional, aviation bezel - bidirectional. Sinn and Damasko are among the few companies realizing the difference.


Thanks for the clarification. Good info to know.

Doesn't change my opinion on the domed acrylic (or sapphire) crystal, though. I usually respect traditional design elements, but in this instance the cons seem to outweigh the pros (for my personal tastes). The sapphire crystal (with its superior scratch resistance) is something like a $500 upgrade - and that's a lot of money for this guy.

Whether for divers or pilots, rotating bezels don't really do it for me...at least not right now. Maybe in the future...


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

Saxon007 said:


> The Hanhart 1939 Fliegerchronograph is as close to a traditional German chrono as you can get without buying a vintage WWII version. Mine has a hand winding Valjoux 7760 (the movement it is not a flyback like the originals).





JML said:


> Here's the limited edition Aerowatch from Louis Erard, which was sold by Timeworks (only 100 made). Beautifully decorated Val. 7760, but no display back. ...
> View attachment 830006


Now i'm a little confused... Isn't the handwind 7760 subdials are located @ 6s and 12s?








> *Werk*
> Valjoux 7760 Handaufzugs-Chronograph.


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## JML (Dec 21, 2006)

There are many variations on the 7750/7760 subdial placement & use. The bicompax doesn't have the day/date, obviously.

Look here.


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## river rat (Apr 6, 2008)

You want a handwind chronograph why not go vintage like I did Heuer Bund issued to the German airforce it will have history behind it and it's a flyback chrono.They can still be found.


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## korolev (Sep 27, 2008)

Ed.YANG said:


> You referring to this... made by SINN(not the current SINN which is owned by a larger watch group)?
> View attachment 825743


hey Ed, would you be from SC too? i just stumbled upon this piece on the Internet and loving it already. would you happen to have ordered a Guinand before? The website is all in German and i hope to learn from your experience if you have.

Thank you!


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