# Zenith serial number/dating



## huntershooter

I've been unable to find a resource online. Would anyone know approximate year of production for serial number 565,XXX?


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## Hartmut Richter

huntershooter said:


> I've been unable to find a resource online. Would anyone know approximate year of production for serial number 565,XXX?


No, I'm afraid not. Movement serial number or case serial number?!:think:

Movement serial numbers, I am not sure when they started, have always had seven digits (at least the ones I have seen). Zenith reached the 2 million mark around the middle of WWI (ca. 1916-1917) on those and the three million mark around 1930. As for case serial numbers, I have no idea what the number range is there, I'm afraid. I do know, however, that around 1963, Zenith introduced a new system which went ###X### where the #s are numbers and the X is a letter (A at first, later D and lastly E before the system was phased out again). It therefore sounds as if you have a wrist watch from before 1963. Some pictures of the thing will help us a little more, though.

Hartmut Richter


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## huntershooter

Thank you Sir. Yes, that was the case ser. number.
I have checked, there is a number on movement : 4,366,XXX.


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## Hartmut Richter

huntershooter said:


> I have checked, there is a number on movement : 4,366,XXX.


That would be early fifties, then.

Hartmut Richter


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## huntershooter

Your information is much appreciated.


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## U-Man

Thanks for this thread. Hope you don't mind if I jump in with my serial number inquiry?

3033xxx

on a movement that looks like this:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Zenith_16

So maybe early 30's?


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## Hartmut Richter

Yes, I'd go for early thirties - although very late twenties also seems possible. The one you show is a pocket watch movement. If so, I presume that it's also in a pocket watch?

Hartmut Richter


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## U-Man

Hartmut Richter said:


> Yes, I'd go for early thirties - although very late twenties also seems possible. The one you show is a pocket watch movement. If so, I presume that it's also in a pocket watch?
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thanks Harmut. It is actually in a Zenith Special wristwatch (I think that is what it is called). I should post some pics later.


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## Hartmut Richter

U-Man said:


> Thanks Harmut. It is actually in a Zenith Special wristwatch (I think that is what it is called). I should post some pics later.


Ah well, the smaller calibres up to 16''' (ca. 36mm) were also used in wrist watches at that time. I have come across the "Specials" occasionally - not in person, just by picture! Nice watches! I look foward to the piccies.

Hartmut Richter


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## nicola1960

Buon giorno a tutti.

Se può interessare, questa tabella è aggiornata e corretta.


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## sempervivens

nicola1960 said:


> Buon giorno a tutti.
> 
> Se può interessare, questa tabella è aggiornata e corretta.


Grazie Nicola molto carino da vostro parte.
Vedo due numeri nuovi per 1954, pero credo che prima avevi il 4282952 assegnato al 1953?
Dopo studieró la lista ancora volontieri. b-)


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## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> Grazie Nicola molto carino da vostro parte.
> Vedo due numeri nuovi per 1954, pero credo che prima avevi il 4282952 assegnato al 1953?
> Dopo studieró la lista ancora volontieri. b-)


Grazie per aver risposto in italiano.;-)

Comprendo le vostre risposte in inglese, ma commetterei troppi errori se dovessi scrivere.:roll:

Se per voi è lo stesso, preferisco scrivere in italiano.

La Tabella è stata realizzata da me realizzata sulla base della documentazione che ho trovato e sulla base di notizie che mi hanno comunicato gli amici del Forum italiano Orologi & Passioni.

Sembrerebbe abbastanza precisa... ma, probabilmente, ci si deve riferire ad una "finestra" di 2-3 anni. Per tale motivo, l'ho adattata per evitare incongruenze.

Un saluto dall'Italia...


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## Hans61

Hello


I think, movement-serial-number 4366XXX and case serial-number 565XXX are from 1954 or 1955 and they belong to a 18K-gold-watch.


In Rössler's book you can see a movement-serial-number 3033724, a Cal 15-2 from 06.07.1936, which belongs to a Zenith Special Pilots-watch. 

Hans


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## sempervivens

nicola1960 said:


> Grazie per aver risposto in italiano.;-)
> 
> Comprendo le vostre risposte in inglese, ma commetterei troppi errori se dovessi scrivere.:roll:
> 
> Se per voi è lo stesso, preferisco scrivere in italiano.
> 
> La Tabella è stata realizzata da me realizzata sulla base della documentazione che ho trovato e sulla base di notizie che mi hanno comunicato gli amici del Forum italiano Orologi & Passioni.
> 
> Sembrerebbe abbastanza precisa... ma, probabilmente, ci si deve riferire ad una "finestra" di 2-3 anni. Per tale motivo, l'ho adattata per evitare incongruenze.
> 
> Un saluto dall'Italia...


è un fatto conosciuto che ci sono incongruenze nelle communicazioni da parte di Zenith. Delle volte un movimento con un numero vecchio secondo loro appartiene a un orologio fatto solo due anni dopo altri orologi stampati con un numero vicino. Chissa perche. Forse delle volte aspettavono qualche anno prima di utilizzare un movimento.


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> è un fatto conosciuto che ci sono incongruenze nelle communicazioni da parte di Zenith. Delle volte un movimento con un numero vecchio secondo loro appartiene a un orologio fatto solo due anni dopo altri orologi stampati con un numero vicino. Chissa perche. Forse delle volte aspettavono qualche anno prima di utilizzare un movimento.


I think that it is time for the moderator to step in at this point and remind everyone that this is an English language forum. Others who are not versed in your language may be interested in what you have to say as well and it would be courteous to let them participate. If you want to use something other than English, you may communicate by personal messages.

Thanks for your cooperation,

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

actually English and Italian are closely related languages just as English and French which is also sometimes used.
so I don't see the problem in two messages to thank the contributor of a serial list from Italy, in his own language.
However Nicola wrote that he also understands English responses but was hesitant to write in English for fear of making mistakes.
I'm sure he will do fine also in English. I think we should welcome his as a new member of the forum, one with a lot of knowledge about Zenith, from the Italian forum of watch passionates.
Of course you are right Hartmut that this is an English language forum.
Basically he said that he made this list based on the shared experiences on the Italian forum.
I believe Nicola recently adapted it a bit to correct incongruences in the list.



Hartmut Richter said:


> I think that it is time for the moderator to step in at this point and remind everyone that this is an English language forum. Others who are not versed in your language may be interested in what you have to say as well and it would be courteous to let them participate. If you want to use something other than English, you may communicate by personal messages.
> 
> Thanks for your cooperation,
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

Thanks to nicola and sempervivens.

Because the list: until this day I would have said, there are no Zenith-watches with less than 7 numbers on the movement - except Besancon.
But today the postman brought again a surprise:





















Unfortunately not good to see, a Billodes with movement-number 125587.
Hans


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## Hartmut Richter

Hans61 said:


> Thanks to nicola and sempervivens.
> 
> Because the list: until this day I would have said, there are no Zenith-watches with less than 7 numbers on the movement - except Besancon.
> But today the postman brought again a surprise:
> 
> View attachment 403173
> View attachment 403174
> 
> 
> Unfortunately not good to see, a Billodes with movement-number 125587.
> Hans


Well, if you've got serail numbers that keep going up continuously (i.e. not restricted to a particular reference), it is logical that you started at 1 soemwhere along the line. I presume that Zenith always kept a track record of what thy produced but simply didn't stamp the numbers on the movements. Maybe they made an exception in this case. According to the list, it must have been made in the early 20th century - but I would cast some doubt on an annual prodction of ca. 1000 in 1901 going up to about 280000 next year!

Hartmut Richter


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## LouS

Nicola,

welcome, great to have you here. I follow your posts avidly on the italian forum - have no fear about posting in english...


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## sempervivens

Hans61 said:


> Thanks to nicola and sempervivens.
> 
> Because the list: until this day I would have said, there are no Zenith-watches with less than 7 numbers on the movement - except Besancon.
> But today the postman brought again a surprise:
> 
> View attachment 403304
> View attachment 403305
> View attachment 403306
> 
> 
> Unfortunately not good to see, a Billodes with movement-number 125587.
> Hans


congratulations Hans that looks like a centenarian, best quality in very good condition and darn beautiful


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## nicola1960

LouS said:


> Nicola,





LouS said:


> welcome, great to have you here. I follow your posts avidly on the italian forum - have no fear about posting in english...


;-)




Hans61 said:


> Thanks to nicola and sempervivens.





Hans61 said:


> &#8230;a Billodes with movement-number 125587.
> Hans




The Zenith hallmark "Georges Favre Jacot" was 1865.



The Zenith hallmark "Billodes" is registered 22.04.1884.



The Zenith hallmark "Zenith" is registered 12.03.1897.

In Rössler's book you can see a movement-serial-number 102393, of year 1900 and a movement-serial-number 387264 of 19.01.1901.

Ergo&#8230; serial number 125587 is 1900 year, + or -.


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## John Chris

A great thread, thanks to all. My own Billodes (Ottoman) has no number on the movement that I can see - like the one pictured by Rössler on p. 52, which he dates on that page to 1870, but on p. 47 to 1890. Given the trademark registration date of 1884, 1890 seems more likely. Mille grazie - oops, I mean many thanks, Nicola, for all the information.


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## nicola1960

John Chris said:


> ... Mille grazie - oops, I mean many thanks, Nicola, for all the information.


Regards...;-)


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## complexe

After my dad past away, my mother gave me a Zenith watch (picture) serial number 2612391. I think it's a 1930 watch ? does it has a value ?


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## flathead59

nicola1960 said:


> Regards...;-)
> 
> Nicola,
> 
> Thank you very much for the information! This sort of thing is not easily discovered!
> 
> Mark


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## nicola1960

flathead59 said:


> Nicola,
> 
> Thank you very much for the information! This sort of thing is not easily discovered!
> 
> Mark


;-)



Georges Favre (Bulle) Jacot's signature.


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## D N Ravenna

complexe said:


> After my dad past away, my mother gave me a Zenith watch (picture) serial number 2612391. I think it's a 1930 watch ? does it has a value ?
> View attachment 407675


I've not been able to find much, but at least a 1930's if not a little later.

The gold chatons (I think that is what they are called) around the jewels pressed into the plates dates it later. Fancy look to it!

Does it have value? Perhaps. As we don't give out that information here, you can go to eBay and with some patience, get the information you are looking for. If you get a chance, show us a picture of the dial side!

All the best,
Dan


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## nicola1960

Completing argument, my friend *Fjodor,* member of the our Italian Forum, has found that in the Zenith chronographs, with movement Universal, the serial number of the case follows the numeration of Universal watch's production. ;-)


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## LouS

Nicola,

I am fascinated to see the brands appearing as "Zentih-Universal" in the bottom advertisement. Can you throw any light on the Universal-Zenith interaction? I believe for instance that the Zenith cal. 146 is the nearly the same as the UG 285, apparently both similar to the Martel 749. With whom did that movement originate? How did it evolve?


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## Hartmut Richter

LouS said:


> Nicola,
> 
> I am fascinated to see the brands appearing as "Zentih-Universal" in the bottom advertisement. Can you throw any light on the Universal-Zenith interaction? I believe for instance that the Zenith cal. 146 is the nearly the same as the UG 285, apparently both similar to the Martel 749. With whom did that movement originate? How did it evolve?


There was no direct Universal Geneve - Zenith interaction. The movement was made by Martel (located in Le Ponts de Martel) who, to the best of my knowledge, never made any watches but only movements. They sold this movement to Universal (not sure whether anyone else too). In 1950, Zenith bought up Martel, thereby acquiring the rights to their movements (they also got the Cal. 2511/2512 series which all the subsequent ones up to the Cal 2572 were developed from) so that the movement became the Zenith Cal. 146 (replacing the Excelsior Park based Cal. 143).

Concerning the pocket watch with movement serial number 2612391, this would be about mid-1920s. 1930s would be too late. Interestingly enough, the centre wheel is jewelled - at the time, 15 jewel movements were still common in the high class bracket!

Hartmut Richter


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## LouS

Hartmut,

Regarding the 146, that is more or less how I figured it, from looking at the transition from the UG to the Zenith Cairelli, both with the same movement. Except that the Zenith acquisition of Martel was in 1960, I believe. Good to have my impression validated. I don't think Martel manufactured any other ebauches for Zenith (although as you say, the 25x2 series evolved from a Martel movement) - did they for UG?


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## LouS

Hartmut Richter said:


> Martel (located in Le Ponts de Martel) who, to the best of my knowledge, never made any watches but only movements.


A little poking around yields this: MARTEL UNIVERSAL GENEVE moonphase complete calendar - eBay (item 310298405017 end time Mar-24-11 12:53:00 PDT)

Apparently Martel also made the UG 291.

And this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Martel-Watch-Co...aultDomain_0&hash=item35ac83e2f2#ht_519wt_905

Looks like Zenith got the rights to the "Victorious" name as part of the acquisition of Martel.


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## nicola1960

Collaboration Zenith - Universal which supplied "ebauches", cases, and the names of the models "Compur" and "Compax". 



A model Zenith Compur.



A model Zenith Tri-compax



Moreover,&#8230; 

"...A partir de 1930, sous l'impulsion de Raoul Perret, également administrateur de Zénith et président du conseil d'administration de la Martel Watch aux Ponts-de-Martel où sont fabriqués les calibres chronographes, Universal va jouer un rôle prépondérant dans le domaine du chronographe..."

www.invenitetfecit.com/modeles/chronographe-date.html


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## Hartmut Richter

The Zenith calibre lists give the 2511/2312 and 2521/2522 calibres with "Martel" in the comments section.

Hartmut Richter


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## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for showing that. One is never old enough to learn.....

Hartmut Richter


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## v76

Welcome to the forum Nicola, some very good information there. This thread is a really nice source for the Universal-Zenith-Martel connection and pocketwatches from the early 20th century, thanks all!


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## nicola1960

v76 said:


> Welcome to the forum Nicola, some very good information there...


Thank You. ;-)

I have inserted also this element.



AdrianZ said:


> Thank you very much for your comments.
> I have just received the following from Zenith:
> Your watch ( serial number 2810363) was produced on 26,11.1928 and fitted with a ZENITH movement caliber 18 1/2 ''' with 15 jewels&#8230;.
> With my best regards.
> Marc Roethlisberger
> ZENITH INTERNATIONAL SA
> Adrian


*https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/old-zenith-pocket-watch-age-story-319990-post2364172.html*



Also in this, the list seems to be sufficiently precise.


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## D N Ravenna

Truly, one is never old enough to learn.
Thanks!
Dan


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## nicola1960

My friend *Fjodor,* member of the our Italian Forum, has found that the Zenith watches, with Besancon's moviments, were stamped with their own serial numbers ;-)

"_The Zenith factory of Besançon was operating from 1923 and in 1930 (in full economic crisis) there were 65 people employed there._
_They worked side to side with the factory in Le Locle, producing only certain models and/or movements._
_Besançon is near the Swiss border and has a great horological tradition. Still in 1930, there were 1134 people working in the sector._
_Besançon is also famous for the Besançon Observatory chronometer concours. _
_The production in the French factory were stamped with their own serial numbers. _
_Whereas Zenith serial numbers are in the millions (both for the movements and on the back of the case), _
_the" French" serial numbers didn't reach a million in the years 40-50._
_Still these are tens of thousands of pieces, made from 1923 until the closure in the years 1960/1970_."

https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-besancon-469750.html


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## sempervivens

nicola1960 said:


> My friend *Fjodor,* member of the our Italian Forum, has found that the Zenith watches, with Besancon's moviments, were stamped with their own serial numbers ;-)
> 
> "_The Zenith factory of Besançon was operating from 1923 and in 1930 (in full economic crisis) there were 65 people employed there._
> _They worked side to side with the factory in Le Locle, producing only certain models and/or movements._
> _Besançon is near the Swiss border and has a great horological tradition. Still in 1930, there were 1134 people working in the sector._
> _Besançon is also famous for the Besançon Observatory chronometer concours. _
> _The production in the French factory were stamped with their own serial numbers. _
> _Whereas Zenith serial numbers are in the millions (both for the movements and on the back of the case), _
> _the" French" serial numbers didn't reach a million in the years 40-50._
> _Still these are tens of thousands of pieces, made from 1923 until the closure in the years 1960/1970_."
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-besancon-469750.html


So thanks to Fjodor for the information and the above quick translation from Italian to English was made by me :roll:

I read (in another post on this forum) that the Zenith archives have confirmed :

"_*The ZENITH logo (star) changed on the french market for the watches produced in our subsidiary in Besançon from app. 1965 till 1970*_."

So apparently production in Besançon lasted (at least) until 1970.

Considering serial numbers for Zenith Besançon, I've calculated that they made an average of 20000 watches every year, and probably less or nothing during WW II. 

In the beginning of course they made mainly pocket watches, but later wristwatches, for instance with cal 106 in the 1950's, and 2532c in 1960's.

They reached serial number 580000 (on the movement) around 1955, then # 680000 around 1960, and # 780000 around 1965.
* give or take a couple of years !

_Hans has a beautiful square vintage from around 1965._

AFAIK the archives in Zenith Switzerland at the present moment can't supply any information about production dates etc. for the serial numbers from Besançon.

PS "*The ZENITH logo (star) changed on the french market for the watches produced in our subsidiary in Besançon from app. 1965 till 1970*." : for a stylised 4 pointed star rather than the usual 5 pointed Zenith star


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## LouS

Our friend Nicola sends over the latest Zenith serial number table, updated as of today:










Thanks Nicola!:-!


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## D N Ravenna

Thanks for sharing!
Dan


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## Hans61

Hello.
According Rössler Cal 18 1/2 started in 1905.
I have never seen a typical Cal 18 1/2 (like 2116542) without movement-number or with such a low movement-number.









Here you can see 1036226 from 1907.
I don't know the caliber.









All pocketwatches from Besancon I know are Cal 18-28-1-PE, which I can not find in Rössler's book.

So I think the question of dating Zenith is more difficult.


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## nicola1960

nicola1960 said:


> Collaboration Zenith - Universal which supplied "ebauches", cases, and the names of the models "Compur" and "Compax".
> 
> Moreover,&#8230;
> 
> "...A partir de 1930, sous l'impulsion de *Raoul Perret*, également administrateur de Zénith et président du conseil d'administration de la Martel Watch aux Ponts-de-Martel où sont fabriqués les calibres chronographes, Universal va jouer un rôle prépondérant dans le domaine du chronographe..."
> 
> www.invenitetfecit.com/modeles/chronographe-date.html


;-)


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## James E

Hi
Was wondering what year my Zenith with a movement serial number of 7009785 and case serial number of 5235085 would be?


Many thx
James


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## sempervivens

Are you sure your case has a serial number 5235085 : maybe it is 523D085 ? 
If not you have an unusual combination there.
Do you have some pics?



James E said:


> Hi
> Was wondering what year my Zenith with a movement serial number of 7009785 and case serial number of 5235085 would be?
> 
> Many thx
> James


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## James E

Here are some photos- apologies if not too clear
Definitely reads as serial number 5235085

thx
James


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## sempervivens

ah sorry I thought it was 70000000 but it is near 7000000 ...
The serial numbers on the movement are most used.

here is Nicola's latest list :









As you can see in Nicola's table, which is based on information from Zenith archives, the movement of your watch can be dated between 1902 and 1911, so probably dates to around 1907! |>


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## Hartmut Richter

That is a very unusual case (of a watch, not as in: watch case). The serial number is extremely high (7 million - the list by Nicola has 700000 with a "?" after it for 1906) and would suggest ca. 1970. On the other hand, there is no way that that movement was made or even cased in 1970 - the whole thing looks like a converted pocket watch from here! Some clearer pictures would probably help. Is the last digit of the movement serial number shinier, as if it had been etched in more recently?!

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

oops yes it does have a serial number that has one number too much for 1907 and would be dated 'around 1970'. But the hinged back of course looks like a pocketwatch. Though it has good looking strong lugs as well. The case number makes it older than 1940's. Please lift up the veil and explain the mystery ? Is it a pocket watch movement ? It looks big, seeing the 22 mm strap.


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## fixfix

Hartmut Richter said:


> That is a very unusual case (of a watch, not as in: watch case)... the whole thing looks like a converted pocket watch from here! Some clearer pictures would probably help...


Dear Zenith lovers. A warm welcome to all of you from Fix the Ox.

Yes, some clearer pictures would probably have help the ox who finally bought the watch [or one of them?] to realize that somethings is wrong with it.

Check out the clearer pictures on the two links ;-)... Whats wrong with them? Did you ever see a watch sold in the UK which was then quickly delivered to Germany to sell it 2 hours later on a swiss auctionary?

UK Auction: Rare Military ZENITH AVIATOR Swiss Wristwatch | eBay
CH Auction: Rare Military ZENITH AVIATOR Original Zenith kaufen auf ricardo.ch (Bis: 13.11.2011 23:16)

I wouldn't have mind to post my first posting on the forums in a happier matter. But away from this, I'm still happy to found this tread.
I think, it is still better to know about a unhappy crap you own, than to be be happy about a crap you don't know ;-(

Kind regrards

Fix aka Xif54


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, your Swiss link doesn't work the way it should - if you follow it, you just get that homepage rather than a specific auction and if you search for "Zenith" watches, you get 26 entries and yours isn't one of them. Never mind - it sounds as if you have been duped. Now that I can see the whole watch, I can tell you that it has all the hallmarks of a "Ukrainian special". PW movements recased or converted to oversized wrist watches, the dial redone to look very fanciful or military and non of them with any collectors value. If that one came from the UK, I suspect that someone there fell for it, got bored with it and decided to pass it on to someone else.

Hope you have more luck in the future. Stick around the forum, ask us before making a purchase and you usually get useful advice.

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna

Well fix, it looks like you purchased a Zenith pocker watch that someone has re-worked into a wrist watch. To some degree, the seller was not that dishonest as he/she stated "...in the style of a military pilot's watch from WW II." They probably figured that using the word "rare" was correct because not too many convert the pocket watchws as it destroys any value they did have.

On the positive side, you have a unique looking watch. If it runs well and looks decent, enjoy it!

Keep us posted,
Dan


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## fixfix

Hartmut Richter said:


> Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, your Swiss link doesn't work the way it should... ours isn't one of them. Never mind - it sounds as if you have been duped. Now that I can see the whole watch, I can tell you that it has all the hallmarks of a "Ukrainian special"....
> 
> Hope you have more luck in the future. Stick around the forum, ask us before making a purchase and you usually get useful advice.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Hello Hartmut

Thanks for your answer and your looking at the pictures. As I told before I felt like an Ox. But this will make me more carful. Can't tell you why I didn't google the Case #.

Regards

Fix


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## fixfix

D N Ravenna said:


> To some degree, the seller was not that dishonest as he/she stated "...in the style of a military pilot's watch from WW II." They probably figured that using the word "rare" was correct because not too many convert the pocket watchws as it destroys any value they did have.
> 
> On the positive side, you have a unique looking watch. If it runs well and looks decent, enjoy it!
> 
> Keep us posted,
> Dan


Hello Dan

You're write. The phrase was correct. My displeasure came that the swiss seller put an watch to an auction which he didn't owned. He just bought it 2h before my auction ended. And in the swiss auction the watch was more clearly as 100% original described.

Here's a new try with the link for the swiss auction. http://ulb.li/nk/ricardo2

But anyway. For me the story is closed. I didn't check enough and the Ricardos seller played an suspect game.

Regards

Fix


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## sneer

Hartmut Richter said:


> No, I'm afraid not. Movement serial number or case serial number?!:think:
> 
> Movement serial numbers, I am not sure when they started, have always had seven digits (at least the ones I have seen). Zenith reached the 2 million mark around the middle of WWI (ca. 1916-1917) on those and the three million mark around 1930. As for case serial numbers, I have no idea what the number range is there, I'm afraid. I do know, however, that around 1963, Zenith introduced a new system which went ###X### where the #s are numbers and the X is a letter (A at first, later D and lastly E before the system was phased out again). It therefore sounds as if you have a wrist watch from before 1963. Some pictures of the thing will help us a little more, though.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thanks for this info - Do you know what are the years of production for case with letter A, D and E (no letters B and C?) 
thanks and regards
Piotr


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## Hartmut Richter

No, 'fraid I don't know for certain. The system was introduced in about 1963 and started at A and it was replaced around 1972 (by the ##.####.### reference number system) when Zenith Electronics took over. I think that the D came in around 1968 and the E around 1970-71. There were no B or C models.

Hartmut Richter


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## sneer

Thanks! I will also try to find some information about this.


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## sempervivens

my estimate :
A cases : 1964-1967
D cases : 1968-1970
E cases : 1971-1972


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## sneer

Wow great thanks!


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## Cammon13

This may be a bit off topic. but then again maybe not. I have recently found one of my great grandfather's collection of pocket watches. My grandfather immigrated here from Switzerland in the 1950's. His father was a railroad conductor. One of the watches has a hallmark with the word "Diogene" in it. I have come across a few articles that say that it was an early zenith product before Georges Favre-Jacot was really established. I was curious as to the exact age of it. I see that in the early early 1900's the serial numbers were in the millions.. but the serial number on my watch is #43299. I was wondering if someone had the insight into how to exactly date it for me. Thank You.


----------



## Hans61

That time movement-number and case-number were indentical.
I would suppose 1890 to 1895.
Zenith can say you the exact dates - if you send in and pay 100 Euro.
More pictures?
Hans


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## Hartmut Richter

I wouldn't say that it was a Zenith from "before George Favre-Jacot had really become established". At that time, the company was already well established. However, due to Swiss law, he wasn't allowed to call the company anything other than "George Favre-Jacot"! The way to get round this was to use a variety of brand names for his products - and one of these was "Diogene" (the others being "Billodes" and "Defi" - and later "Zenith").

Your movement is a Diogene (range) calibre ##'''-111 where the ## is the size of the movement in old french lignes (1 ligne = 2.25mm). It is a cylindre escapement movement and therefore one of the more pedestrian Zenith calibres. It was used up to 1905 and mainly before then (late 19th century).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Cammon13

My apologies Hartmut. I phrased that wrong i guess. I just knew that it was made prior to the well known "zenith" name came about. Thank you both Hans and Hartmut for the age estimate. Much help.

P.s. Here is another picture Hans.


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## Talis420

I have a vintage zenith pocket watch I received when my dad passed away he had from his dad the movement serial is 1542195 the case serial is 378 355 also there is a number on the large gear with the patent oct 18 1904 and number 30751 looked at every single hand winding movement on rantts some are close none exactly has patterns engraved on f/s arm like no others I've seen kinda fancy any information would be greatly appreciated front of case has some sort of small crest on it have pictures just can't figure out how to post off my iPhone


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to the Zenith forum. Some pictures would definitely help if you could get around to that. However, I can tell you that your watch is from around 1913-14. In addition, according to the pictures in Rössler, your movement would have one geartrain bridge rather than a separate cock for the escapement wheel, otherwise it should be similar to the specimens shown in Ranfft. On these movements (with single geartrain bridge), the balance cock tended to have extra engraving. Hope that helps,

Hartmut Richter


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## peterki

Hello, below are photos of my Zenith Chronometre pocket watch with a movement nr. 2 994 096. Am I right assuming that it was produced at the end of 1929? Could anybody tell me some details about the caliber? Is this some modification of 18 1/2? Thank you in advance!


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Close. More like 1930, possibly 1931. As for the calibre code, it is difficult to say since the various Zenith movements closely resembled each other in those days. It all depends on size. Tell us the exact diameter of the (visible part of) the movement and we'll give you the calibre specifications.

Hartmut Richter


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## peterki

Dear Hartmut,

thank you. If I measured it correctly, the diameter of the visibible part of the movement should be something between 42 and 43 mm.


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## Hartmut Richter

Definitely no 18 1/2''' calibre. If your lower limit applies and we take away a touch (say you overestimated slightly), it would be about OK for a Cal. 19''' N.V.S.I (later designation 19'''-34-2 for a _savonette _movement) which was 43.15mm. The hidden lip is about 1mm either side. I would think that it is more likely that it is a Cal. 20 1/2''' N.V.S.I (later designation: 20'''-40-2 for _savonette_) which was 45.7mm across in total.

Hartmut Richter


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## gp999

Hello, my first post, I am trying to find out what year my Zenith Sporto was produced and if possible which movement it has? Case serial is #9120157 movement serial is #4311807. I guess about 1955 or a bit later perhaps? Many Thanks.


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## sempervivens

gp999 said:


> Hello, my first post, I am trying to find out what year my Zenith Sporto was produced and if possible which movement it has? Case serial is #9120157 movement serial is #4311807. I guess about 1955 or a bit later perhaps? Many Thanks.
> 
> View attachment 1297094
> 
> 
> View attachment 1297098


yes 1955 is most likely
thanks for sharing


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## gp999

Thank you sempervivens, would you know which movement it has?

Many thanks.


----------



## sempervivens

gp999 said:


> Thank you sempervivens, would you know which movement it has?
> 
> Many thanks.


Cal. 40, which has an excellent reputation as one of the best handwound chronometers ever made.

bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Zenith 40


----------



## gp999

Than
k you again, great to know....



sempervivens said:


> Cal. 40, which has an excellent reputation as one of the best handwound chronometers ever made.
> 
> bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Zenith 40


----------



## Hessu

I think it is not 40, there is no Kif-Duofix at escapement wheel, so it is the little brother of 40, cal 126-6. (Unlike in Ranfft's picture, 126-6 also does have a twin tail like 40)

The dial is a horrific redial. Originally it most likely has been a cream white dial.


----------



## sempervivens

Hessu said:


> I think it is not 40, there is no Kif-Duofix at escapement wheel, so it is the little brother of 40, cal 126-6. (Unlike in Ranfft's picture, 126-6 also does have a twin tail like 40)
> 
> The dial is a horrific redial. Originally it most likely has been a cream white dial.


Good catch Hessu. Thanks!

There is little difference between the cal. 40 and its predecessor cal. 126-6, but your trained eye caught it, thanks for pointing that out.

In size they are the same though ;-)

As for the dial, I agree it obviously is a redial and the original was most likely the opposite colour.


----------



## gp999

Hi Hessu

Thanks for the info regarding the movement, good to know. So the black is definitely not original? That is disappointing and a shame it looks horrific to you! I notice lots of other black examples so I guess they must all have been redialled too?



sempervivens said:


> Good catch Hessu. Thanks!
> 
> There is little difference between the cal. 40 and its predecessor cal. 126-6, but your trained eye caught it, thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> In size they are the same though ;-)
> 
> As for the dial, I agree it obviously is a redial and the original was most likely the opposite colour.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

No, not all. But a lot of them.

Generally speaking, black was a rare dial colour in the ol' days (and it still is the rarer colour). So, Point 1 is that it is attractive to paint a dial black when redialling, even though that might not have been the original colour, as long as you aren't doing it for the original owner who would notice it, since it raises value as long as you can con the next buyer into believing that it actually is original. Point 2 is that if there are dial imperfections to start with, there is nothing like a thick black gloss to cover them up and make the watch look **** and span! Point 3 is that it is easier to make people believe that the watch is a military watch - for some reason, there is a fad (noticed on the Vintage forum) that people go for and are willing to pay more for watches that are military (as opposed to just military style).

If an old watch has a shiny, pristine, black dial, there is a good bet that it isn't original. The real McCoy usually shows some blistering, has half the lume gone if it had some to start with and has impeccably placed (although perhaps somewhat worn) dial markings.

Hartmut Richter


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## peterki

Thank you very much!


----------



## Hessu

Seconded what Hartmut said. The black dial is much more sensitive for instace for humidity... so when you see a shiny pristine black dial in a 50's watch without any gasgets, it is practically impossibility the dial is original. 
But all in all it's a nice watch to wear, it's accurate for it's age and reliable workhorse, even it is not a collectors item, due done dial work.


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## BobanB

I would like if you could tell when was my watch made,i would like if it would be in a perimetre of 2 to 3 years.The number is 01.1281.XXX.


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to the Zenith forum. I am afraid that we can't help you much on that one since this thread is mainly on movement serial numbers and yours isn't even a case serial number, it's the reference number. All I can say is that the watch must be from 1972 or thereafter since that's when that system was introduced. A quick google search reveals that the number is probably 01.1281.360 or 01.1281.380 which would suggest a Cal. 2572 in some version or other. If so, the watch should be from 1975 or thereafter, i.e. the latter half of the seventies. A few pictures might help confirm all that.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> Welcome to the Zenith forum. I am afraid that we can't help you much on that one since this thread is mainly on movement serial numbers and yours isn't even a case serial number, it's the reference number. All I can say is that the watch must be from 1972 or thereafter since that's when that system was introduced. A quick google search reveals that the number is probably 01.1281.360 or 01.1281.380 which would suggest a Cal. 2572 in some version or other. If so, the watch should be from 1975 or thereafter, i.e. the latter half of the seventies. A few pictures might help confirm all that.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Congratulations Hartmut, your 7777th post :-!

If I may say I don't believe with Rössler that cal. 2572 PC was made between 1975-78: how is it then possible that watches with cal. 2572 PC are already featured in the 1974 catalog?

Moreover wasn't the production of all mechanical watches by Zenith summoned to a halt in 1974-75?

I wonder if from these facts we can't conclude that cal. 2572 (PC) was made in 1973-75 ?


----------



## Hartmut Richter

You may well be right. The fact is that it was still used in the late 1970s (old stock), as was the El Primero. Still, the reference number system would allow for ca. 1972 but that is definitely too early for that movement.....

Hartmut Richter


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## Mironidis

Hell guys. My first post here. I would like to know tha date of my grandfathers old pocket watch. It's 0.800 silver, 15 rubis, spiral breguet.

Movement serial number 7000656 and case serial 4063276, below it also says 7314.

Thanks in advance


----------



## sempervivens

Mironidis said:


> Hell guys. My first post here. I would like to know tha date of my grandfathers old pocket watch. It's 0.800 silver, 15 rubis, spiral breguet.
> 
> Movement serial number 7000656 and case serial 4063276, below it also says 7314.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1906/1907 would be my guess. There is little data about this early period.


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> Somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1906/1907 would be my guess. There is little data about this early period.


Nope - too early I would say. The "7 million" series of SNs were made around 1929 onward and stick out from the rest. I don't know why this special series (of SNs) was introduced - we all know that Besancon had their own and are very low for the age of watch but the 7 million range has no rational explanation.....









Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> Nope - too early I would say. The "7 million" series of SNs were made around 1929 onward and stick out from the rest. I don't know why this special series (of SNs) was introduced - we all know that Besancon had their own and are very low for the age of watch but the 7 million range has no rational explanation.....


Thx Hartmut, I had read 7 hundred thousand instead of 7 million, probably my mind tried to rationalise the irrational 7 million range...


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## motylektm

Hello,

Can anyone confirm that this watch is dated around 1913 or tell me something more about this model? Is it gold / popular / worth anything? 
Thank you!


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Probably more like 1914.

Hartmut Richter


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## achilles

Hello Hartmut,

I am looking to buy a 90s Zenith EP Rainbow. It is a like new watch and comes with box but no papers. It is from a reputable dealer.

Just a general question. Like Rolex, does Zenith Rainbow have a case serial number that is etched on the case somewhere? I can only see the reference number on the case back. How can I identify the watch with a unique number?

Thanks!


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## Hartmut Richter

Unfortunately, you can't - not for a watch of that age (i.e.: that young!). If it is a chronometer, it should have a movement serial number of sorts and you can date it by that. None of the Rainbows is COSC certified, though. The only way is to get the exact reference and see when it was produced. The Rainbow series ran over about 7 years but the individual references came and went so you should be able to narrow it down to 2-3 years.

Hartmut Richter


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## diver691

Hello, i recently found a vintage zenith at a garage sale, can anyone help me with more information about this watch? Serial nr. 30.0230.360 on casing. 18k SURF stamped on back


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## Hessu

It is a 70's watch. The number is not a serial number, it is a model code. 30 = tells its a 18 karat yellow gold; 0230 = a code for case model and dial color; 360 = tells it has 2572 hand wind movement inside. 2572 was in production 1975-78, but factory has used into stock built movements also afterwards, but this is most likely from the era. Surf means it is a 30m waterresistant watch. A nice gold watch with perfect condition dial.


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## diver691

Thank you for the fast answer, i was hoping this was a good buy.
In my "investigation" about this watch i see that most zenith watches have another type of star on the dial, do you know why this is?


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## Hartmut Richter

That's because they are older. The five pointed star was the company logo until 1972. There are very few Zeniths with the four pointed NATO star on the dial (this is usually found on crown and case back in the sixties if it is found at all - not many watches had it). In 1972, Zenith was taken over by Zenith Electrics and they introduced the square logo.

Hartmut Richter


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## Proby01

Hi everyone, 
I am a new member of the forum, small collector, so far 4 nice vintage brand watches, from Milan, Italy. I just purchased a lovely Zenith, supposedly from the 60's, that all the seller could tell me, in very nice shape. I can' t find web resources to date it but found your very interesting and knoleadgeable forum. Anybody can help me in getting web resource to date it or know what the SN 8989373 (on the back) and Movement 4152529 (inside mechanism) can date to, what year ? It is an automatic watch with "hammer movement".
thanks in advance if anyone can help

ciao !

Roby,
Milan, Italy
View attachment 7161746
View attachment 7161786
View attachment 7161794


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## sempervivens

Hi Roby and welcome to the forum, the watch dates to about 1952, congratulations, with kind regards


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## probep

Some old Zenith watches didn't have movement serial numbers. Does anybody know WHY?

Examples:


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## SilkeN

The answer for the pocket wath is very simple for pocket watch collectors. The movement was build before 1900. It's the caliber Zenith lever 18'''. You always find the unmber on the dial side of the movement. (It is screwed from the side !! if you want to look).If the whole watch was build before the mid of 1901, the number of the case ist usually identical with the movement number. I can't decide this just by a movement photo. Of course sempervivens is the "master of the casenumber assignment" and the last instance. 

Regards Silke


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## Hartmut Richter

Amd the answer for the wrist watches is also very simple: they were built around or after the end of the sixties when Zenith stopped putting serial numbers on most movements. In the early sixties, the serial numbers moved to under the balance wheel and I think I can see one there on one of your watches. The others are too recent.

Hartmut Richter


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## probep

Once more again about unusual serial numbers.
This is a Zenith pocket watch for the Polish army. It was made before the WW2 in 1936. BTW the movement S/N is equal to the case S/N.
Where was it made? In Besançon?
Why did Zenith use such unusual S/Ns?


----------



## sempervivens

There was apparently a small series of watches with serial numbers starting at 7 million and going at least to 7.05 million made around 1930.
Interesting that this has also the same case number.


----------



## probep

sempervivens said:


> There was apparently a small series of watches with serial numbers starting at 7 million and going at least to 7.05 million made around 1930.
> Interesting that this has also the same case number.


Why do you think that it was "made around 1930"? Because somebody did resume in his table?
Another example, the watch was made in 1936 - https://www.antik-war.lv/viewtopic.php?f=224&t=1082408 - the movement S/N is equal to the case S/N.


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## sempervivens

'Around 1930' intended as 'exact date not known', it might as well be 1936. Main point is the apparent production run of a batch of watches with serial numbers from 7 million to 7.05 million ca. 1930's. How do you know it was made in 1936?


----------



## probep

sempervivens said:


> 'Around 1930' intended as 'exact date not known', it might as well be 1936. Main point is the apparent production run of a batch of watches with serial numbers from 7 million to 7.05 million ca. 1930's. How do you know it was made in 1936?


Its too easy to recognize. There were two main delivery to the Polish army: in 1934 and in 1936.
Look at the pic beneath the S/N on the case.


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## SilkeN

I think identical case and movement numbers are sometimes required by the military specifications. You find this also by typ B aviation watches for the french army. 
I guess it don't help. I've a half M.S. Woisk pocketwatch (Glasring and hands are unfortunately missing) exact the same movement nr. 7045458 Steel case: 7045458 and second row 1986r. On the watch of the link I see a second number as well and I guess probep has also one . 
Joel Duval ( French) wrote within his book about the watch: "The calibre number indicates that this movement was assembled in Besancon in the ultramodern workshops of Zenith's french subsidiary. The rich shared history of the French and Polnish armies undoubtly influenced this choise." ...in advanced he wrote that Captain Charles de Gaule among others was send to Polen 1919-1921 helping to train the polnish army.

I'm not sure about the fact that the caliber numbers are speaking for Besancon because they are a "special circle" but nothing speaks against it.

Regards Silke

Addition: The caliber 193 is a "new addition" of the 19N (1906-39) in 1941/42 ..maybe this is something simular in the thirtees for military watches with own number circle. Fast /Slow on the ock because a lot of these customers speak englich , @Probep which letters it would be in Polish ??


----------



## probep

SilkeN said:


> I think identical caseand movement numbers are sometimes requred by the military specifications. You find this also by typ B aviation watches for the french army.
> I guess it don't help. I've a half M.S. Woisk pocketwatch (Glasring and hands are unfortunately missing) exact the same movement nr. 7045458 Steel case: 7045458 and second row 1986r. On the watch of the link I see a second number as well and I guess probep has also one .
> Joel Duval ( French) wrote within his book about the watch: "The calibre number indicates that this moement was assembled in Besancon in the ultramodern workshops of Zenith's french subsidiary. The rich shared history of the French and Polnish armies undoubtly influenced this choise." ...in advanced he wrote that Captain Charles de Gaule among others was send to Polen 1919-1921 helping to train the polnish army.
> 
> I'm not sure about the fact that the caliber numbers are speaking for Besancon because they are a "special circle" but nothing speaks against it.
> 
> Regards Silke
> 
> Addition: The caliber 193 is a "new addition" of the 19N (1906-39) in 1941/42 ..maybe this is something simular in the thirtees for military watches with own number circle. Fast /Slow on the ock because a lot of these customers speak englich , @Probep which letters it would be in Polish ??


Thank you, Silke

I've bought this watch, but have not received it yet.
Maybe you are wrong about "second row 1986r"? - I've read that it is "1936r", where "r" ("rok") means "year" in English. And there were only two variants: "1934r" and "1936r".
And I have read that such watches use 18-28-3-p calibre.

P.S. I don't understand Polish.


----------



## SilkeN

Sorry Polnish of course o| ... in german: *N*ach /*V*or, french: * R*etard/*A*dvanced and english: *S*low/*F*ast

and yes you're right 1936 ..without my glases I read a 8...I'm getting old ..than this is also a watxh from the second delivery 1936:-! .

18-28-3-p ..Yes you're right its a smaler 18 1/2 '''N caliber with 18-28-3-p reference built until 1955. I just mean with simular that they build a special number circle of a inhouse caliber for military customers. 

Regards Silke still looking for exact hands who are hard to find


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## Owlmark

Hello, it's my first post here. I am trying to find out what year was produced my grandfather's old pocket Zenith watch and if possible which movement it has? Case serial is #4067971, movement serial is #7048451. Below case serial it also says 3897.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum.

This movement number is part of a mysterious small series of ca. 50.000 watches made ca. 1930's, difficult to date exactly: maybe ca. 1935. 

As for the case number, it is the last of the old style of Zenith numbers for silver pocket watches I've seen. (After this Zenith started using a new system of case numbers). 

In any case an interesting watch and beautiful heirloom you have there.


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## Owlmark

sempervivens said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> This movement number is part of a mysterious small series of ca. 50.000 watches made ca. 1930's, difficult to date exactly: maybe ca. 1935.
> 
> As for the case number, it is the last of the old style of Zenith numbers for silver pocket watches I've seen. (After this Zenith started using a new system of case numbers).
> 
> In any case an interesting watch and beautiful heirloom you have there.


Thank you sempervivens for your answer. It's good to know that I have really unique watch. So many years, few generations in my family, 100% working, it's like time travel&#8230;

Best Regards


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## Hartmut Richter

I think that the crystal could do with replacement. I presume that it is made from plexiglass. The yellowing effect can damage the dial, although yours is probably still enamel and should therefore be resistant to this. If you want the exact movement specifications, you will have to give us the exact diameter - movements of different sizes look almost identical and they were available in steps of about 1''' (old french _ligne_, equivalent to about 2.26mm).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Owlmark

Hartmut Richter said:


> I think that the crystal could do with replacement. I presume that it is made from plexiglass. The yellowing effect can damage the dial, although yours is probably still enamel and should therefore be resistant to this. If you want the exact movement specifications, you will have to give us the exact diameter - movements of different sizes look almost identical and they were available in steps of about 1''' (old french _ligne_, equivalent to about 2.26mm).
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Dear Hartmut,
if I measured it correctly, the diameter of the visible part of the movement should be ca. 39 mm. Thanks for your suggestion about crystal replacement. I was just thinking about doing it.

thanks and regards


----------



## Hartmut Richter

In that case, it ought to be an 18 1/2''' calibre, probably the 18-28-3 A (the later designation for the 18 1/2''' N.V.III).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## SilkeN

@owlmark : It i a good idea to change the glas. With smal money your watch will look perfect .

@sempervivens ...a master question. Okay not really a Zenith but build by the same company. I've no real idea to date this watch:

Diogene argentan case 20240









Unfortunately the handwritten and in a charming way incorrectly executed dial, seems to be a substitute (big holes) that I avoit to involve for the dating.
THe movement number: 20240 marked Diogene and the first time I see no crownwinder Diogene. It's a 6 jewel keywinder with cylinder escapement:









You can read: registered ...what,when,where. Diogene as a mark was registred 1885 (Prichard/Mikrolisk)

@all Any thoughts ??? I'm confused

Silke


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## Owlmark

Hartmut Richter said:


> In that case, it ought to be an 18 1/2''' calibre, probably the 18-28-3 A (the later designation for the 18 1/2''' N.V.III).
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thank You again , great to know.


----------



## Owlmark

You are right SilkeN, it will look perfect with new glass. 

Regards


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## Mamoulian13

Hello everyone. It's also my first post here. Long hours of house cleaning paid off in a form of old watch. In 70' my father was a taxi driver, and one of passengers paid him with this watch. As far as I know it wasn't used or winded until now. I'm trying to estimate manufacture date, and so far I haven't found identical one online. Serial number is 9189531. Watch was opened at watchmaker's shop, and movement serial number is 4438331.


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## sempervivens

Congratulations on your Zenith Sporto. Did your watchmaker tell you which caliber it was? Maybe cal. 126-5-6?

Estimated manufacture date: 1955/56.


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## Acme

sempervivens said:


> Congratulations on your Zenith Sporto. Did your watchmaker tell you which caliber it was? Maybe cal. 126-5-6?
> 
> Estimated manufacture date: 1955/56.


I would add 1954 too - most likely early 1955.

Regards Acme


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## Mamoulian13

Thank you very much for your help. I didn't asked watchmaker about the calibre. Surprisingly, watch works, but I guess it requires (obviously) restoration. Crown has tendency to pop up a little and stop mechanism. Winded and placed still works great.


----------



## Ninjaman92

Hey everyone,

Can anyone tell me something about this watch? It was gifted to me by my uncle.

Serial number: 9118892

Any info would be very much appreciated.









Sent from my vivo 1804 using Tapatalk


----------



## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith. Going by the case number, it dates to around 1955/56.


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## Ninjaman92

sempervivens said:


> Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith. Going by the case number, it dates to around 1955/56.


Thank you sir. This is very much appreciated. Would you happen know which model this is? I cant find much details about it on the internet. The photos i see in the internet with subseconds hands still show part of the 6 oclock market. However this particular piece covers it completely and only shows 3, 9, and 12.

Thank you and hope your family is safe 

Sent from my vivo 1804 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ninjaman92

Ninjaman92 said:


> Thank you sir. This is very much appreciated. Would you happen know which model this is? I cant find much details about it on the internet. The photos i see in the internet with subseconds hands still show part of the 6 oclock market. However this particular piece covers it completely and only shows 3, 9, and 12.
> 
> Thank you and hope your family is safe
> 
> Sent from my vivo 1804 using Tapatalk


*6 oclock marker

Sent from my vivo 1804 using Tapatalk


----------



## sempervivens

Such small dial variants are common. The watch does not have a model name, as most watches back in the day did not have a particular model name.

It is possible that the dial of your watch was refinished. Difficult to tell from this small photograph, but it is unusual that the subdial has a different colour. The hands also look relumed.


----------



## Ninjaman92

sempervivens said:


> Such small dial variants are common. The watch does not have a model name, as most watches back in the day did not have a particular model name.
> 
> It is possible that the dial of your watch was refinished. Difficult to tell from this small photograph, but it is unusual that the subdial has a different colour. The hands also look relumed.


Got it. Thank you for the input sir. Stay safe 

Sent from my vivo 1804 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bitshack

Cammon13 said:


> This may be a bit off topic. but then again maybe not. I have recently found one of my great grandfather's collection of pocket watches. My grandfather immigrated here from Switzerland in the 1950's. His father was a railroad conductor. One of the watches has a hallmark with the word "Diogene" in it. I have come across a few articles that say that it was an early zenith product before Georges Favre-Jacot was really established. I was curious as to the exact age of it. I see that in the early early 1900's the serial numbers were in the millions.. but the serial number on my watch is #43299. I was wondering if someone had the insight into how to exactly date it for me. Thank You.
> View attachment 961474
> View attachment 961476


----------



## Bitshack

Zenith Watches Serial Numbers Complete Guide - Millenary Watches


A complete Guide to Zenith watches serial numbers. How do you date Zenith watches? Learn more about Zenith serial numbers and how to use them!




millenarywatches.com


----------



## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith heirloom. Pictures of the watch are always appreciated.

Before 1901 Zenith watches were numbered differently. That number 43299 would make it a very early Zenith, possibly dating before 1885. Unless it's a ladies watch?

However the Diogene name was only registered by Zenith in April 1885. It seems possible though that Zenith already made some watches under this name before registering it.


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## bose79

I have a question about a Zenith watch I recently inherited from my parent, who inherited it in 1965. The case number is 9133309.

Looking around the internet, I have not yet found a similar Zenith clock face (the number 12 only and squares on the left and right sides). Do you know anything about the model and when it might have been built? Any help would be appreciated!


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## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith. The case number dates it to approx. 1954/55. Most likely it has a Zenith cal. 126-6 inside. When you have it serviced by your local watchmaker, you could ask for the caliber and movement serial number to be noted down. Wear it in good health


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## bose79

Thank you very much! That's very helpful. I will definitely ask for service numbers when next getting it serviced.
As for servicing, can any local watchmaker be trusted with it? And every how many years? I don't know when the watch was last serviced (I'll still try to find records), but I know it was last repaired for something two years ago.


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## sempervivens

To service this watch should not be a problem for any qualified watchmaker. Roughly speaking a service every 5 years should do. It depends also on how often you use it.


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## bose79

Thanks a lot. I also read in another thread it has to do with how reliably the watch keeps the time. I'll be testing this soon. For now I'm pleased that it is running for 52 hours (and counting) on one rewind.


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## sempervivens

bose79 said:


> Thanks a lot. I also read in another thread it has to do with how reliably the watch keeps the time. I'll be testing this soon. For now I'm pleased that it is running for 52 hours (and counting) on one rewind.


That sounds extremely good for such an old watch and therefore I don't think it needs service at this point.


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## Birky1

Hi everyone I hope everyone is Safe and Well
I've just bought my 1st Zenith 
Zenith cal. 34.6
01-0170-346 is on the case back
Can anyone tell me anything about it please
It runs superb and very accurate 
Thank you in advance
















Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## sempervivens

Congratulations on your Zenith, please check this thread for a little more information on this model.


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## bose79

sempervivens said:


> That sounds extremely good for such an old watch and therefore I don't think it needs service at this point.


Great, thanks a lot! (It ran for 53 hours in the end.)


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## MaoGaro71

Dear all, I've received form my Grandfather this beautiful Zenith. I would like to know which year could have been made. The serial behind is 223D821. Please consider that I'm Italian so probably there's a different market?







thank a lot for your very useful help. Thanks


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to Watchuseek! A nice watch with a rather distinctive dial. With a Cal. 2542 PC, it ought to be from the latter half of the sixties, probably towards the end of that decade. sempervivens is better up on the case numbers, he would be able to give you a more precise date. The movement serial number under the balance seems to be 67xxxxx which would be 1968/69.

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Welcome also from me. A bit unusual font there for the 'automatic' and no 'swiss made' on the dial? As for the date, I can confirm c. 1968/69.


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## MaoGaro71

I agree with you. No pictures found on the web similar to this model. It’s strange watch. I don’t think that my gradfather bought a fake in that era. I don’t know. I hope, just for me and memories of my parents, that it’s original. Thanks a lot.


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## sempervivens

Far from a fake but possibly a redial. The watch has been serviced at least once in the past (going by the markings in the caseback it looks like it was serviced in '75) so the dial was possibly restored. Which should not prevent you from wearing and enjoying it in good health.


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## MaoGaro71

You are absolutely right! Thanks a lot!!


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## Canellma

Hi everyone,
I'm writing here because this seems to be the best repository of info about vintage Zeniths.
I found my grandpa's Zenith Stellina (here in Italy Zeniths with the star logo on the dial are called "stellina", "little star").
I bring it to the watch shop for a full service, and now it is alive again!
Unfortunately I don't have the original crown.













































I'd like to know something more on the watch.
It has a 2531 caliber, the case is 20 micron gold plated, I found no serial number on the movement and the case serial number is 583 A 333
He has gaskets on the case back, in the crown and under the plexi, so it's water proof.
In your previous posts i read:
From Sempervivens:
_ A cases : 1964-1967
D cases : 1968-1970
E cases : 1971-1972_

So the A should means 1964-1967.
From Hartmund Richter:
"_And the answer for the wrist watches is also very simple: they were built around or after the end of the sixties when Zenith stopped putting serial numbers on most movements."

so.. can I assume 1967 as a possible date?

do you know something else about the watch?_


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## sempervivens

Hi Canellma, Congratulations on your Zenith heirloom. I can't very well read the movement number on the platine, but the case number dates it to ca. 1965. It is quite likely that your grandfather bought it ca. 1966/67. Thank you for the beautiful photos.


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to Watchuseek! The serial number - you obviously still have one on your movement! - is a little bit of a puzzle: it looks like 8964405, which would be way out of range (in 1965, they were around the 6 million mark). Assuming that the first digit isn't very clear and is actually a 5, the movement serial number would also date it to 1965.

Hartmut Richter


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## Canellma

Thank you for the reply.
It's very exciting to see it alive and shiny after all these years. I'm sure that my grandfather would be happy to see it like this.


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## Juzzon61

Hello, and thank you for this wonderful forum!
Could you please help with dating this Zenith Respirator? I bought it some months ago and it's currently undergoing a full service.


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## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith. Everything (movement and case number) points to a production in the first half of 1969. Any picture of the front?


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## Juzzon61

sempervivens said:


> Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith. Everything (movement and case number) points to a production in the first half of 1969. Any picture of the front?


Thank you very much! 
Here is a picture of the watch itself - I feel for the grey dial


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## Juzzon61

Juzzon61 said:


> Thank you very much!
> Here is a picture of the watch itself - I feel for the grey dial
> View attachment 15943556


(Fell - not feel)


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## Juzzon61

Here's a picture of my fiancé's ladies version btw. Could I ask you to date that as well? In this case














I only have the number on the back.


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## sempervivens

Very nice grey dial, thanks for sharing. As for the ladies respirator: a rare gem ca. 1971/72.


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## Juzzon61

sempervivens said:


> Very nice grey dial, thanks for sharing. As for the ladies respirator: a rare gem ca. 1971/72.


Thanks again @sempervivens 🙏🙏


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## mikehelvey

Good day. I'm writing to find any information on this pocket watch, found in my father's belongings. The movement serial number is 2466291 and the Case is marked with D. 8407453 H. There are three indentions on the back case. 

I appreciate any insight.

Mike


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## Koleksiyon360

Hi Mike, in the photo it looks like the serial number is 3466291. If it's 3466291, it was manufactured in 1944. As you said, the serial number is 2466291, and it was produced in 1919.

Zenith Watches Serial Numbers Complete Guide: Zenith Watches Serial Numbers Complete Guide - Millenary Watches



mikehelvey said:


> Good day. I'm writing to find any information on this pocket watch, found in my father's belongings. The movement serial number is 2466291 and the Case is marked with D. 8407453 H. There are three indentions on the back case.
> 
> I appreciate any insight.
> 
> Mike


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## mikehelvey

Koleksiyon360 said:


> Hi Mike, in the photo it looks like the serial number is 3466291. If it's 3466291, it was manufactured in 1944. As you said, the serial number is 2466291, and it was produced in 1919.
> 
> Zenith Watches Serial Numbers Complete Guide: Zenith Watches Serial Numbers Complete Guide - Millenary Watches


You are absolutely right! Thanks--old eyes. ;-)


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## botse

Hello all,

Thank you for everyone contributing to this thread. It took me a long time to find this forum. My question is related to a Zenith Pocket watch that I received recently. I believe the serial number dates is to 1918 but confirmation would be appreciated. The other question I have is that the watch back has extra engraved numbers on it. It looks like the following;
439
1614
2465
3563
5212

Any information would be greatly appreciated.


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to Watchuseek! That's a nice looking watch but I am afraid that it isn't all genuine by the looks of it. The movement dates to 1914, possibly late 1913 and the dial matches that. However, the case is not original to the watch. For a start, Zenith used European cases, not American ones and that is obviously one of the latter (Illinois Watch Case Co.). Secondly, it looks like the merger is not the best of fits since it seems necessary to insert something under the movement holder screws (the ones in the movement but extending to the case). I suspect that the watch used to be in a solid gold case but that this was melted down and the movement and dial recased in a gold plated one. The movement looks filthy and the whole thing could do with a good service. Those additional markings on the case were probably left by watchmakers during past services - they are sort of a service history on the case rather than in a booklet!

Hartmut Richter


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## botse

Hartmut Richter said:


> Welcome to Watchuseek! That's a nice looking watch but I am afraid that it isn't all genuine by the looks of it. The movement dates to 1914, possibly late 1913 and the dial matches that. However, the case is not original to the watch. For a start, Zenith used European cases, not American ones and that is obviously one of the latter (Illinois Watch Case Co.). Secondly, it looks like the merger is not the best of fits since it seems necessary to insert something under the movement holder screws (the ones in the movement but extending to the case). I suspect that the watch used to be in a solid gold case but that this was melted down and the movement and dial recased in a gold plated one. The movement looks filthy and the whole thing could do with a good service. Those additional markings on the case were probably left by watchmakers during past services - they are sort of a service history on the case rather than in a booklet!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Dear Hartmut,

Thank you very much for the rapid response. I guess that the case change was the major source of my confusion. I agree with the need for a good service. As it turns out this was one of the few items my father in law had in his life when he passed recently (all of his other personal keepsakes were stolen from him from a house burglary). His two daughters cherish the watch and I was wondering if it would be difficult to get a matching original case for it (even the cost of it if it is possible). Furthermore, on a more personal note would it be better to keep the watch as is (although the daughters didnt know he had it) or does everyone think I should get it fully restored as a kind of homage to their father? This is the part I would appreciate every bodies opinion on.


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## Hartmut Richter

I think that you are contemplating a difficult task. For a start, it is likely that the original case was gold, even though it might have been silver. In both "cases" (pardon the pun!) - but especially if it was originally in a gold case - you chances of finding an abandoned case are rather lower than of finding an abandoned movement/dial set. All this for the same reason that yours lost its original case (melted down for the raw cash). About your only chance would be to find a complete watch (on fleabay or the like) with a movement so bust that it's not worth restoring. And even then, the case serial number won't match the movement serial number and an expert will still know that t has been assembled from parts.

On the whole, you can try but it will not really be worth the effort.

Hartmut Richter


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## botse

Thank you for your honesty Hartmut. I didnt realise it would be such a difficult, likely impossible, task. I will take your advice and leave it as it. Thank you once again for your input.

Rob


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## Maria Simon

Hello! I am new here, sorry if I am wrong addressing this here. I have this watch, condition is awful but I guess they are old. What is the possible value of them? The number is 123069. Thanks a lot! Best, Maria


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to Watchuseek! However, please be aware that we don't give valuations here. This is particularly the case with watches such as yours. As it is, the dial is nearly trashed and the big question is whether the movement can be salvaged. Otherwise, the only thing in decent condition is the case.....

Hartmut Richter


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## Alistair Forsyth

Hello,
I’m hoping to find some information here about my grandfathers Zenith pocket watch.
Case number 333888
Movement number 2781321


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## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith heirloom, which looks in great condition. Based on the movement and case number I would date this c. 1930. It's unusual that the case is not signed by Zenith (maybe on the outside?). The gold marks however do not seem Swiss but perhaps English, is it possible that your grandfather bought this watch in England?


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome also from me. The movement dates back to 1926 or early 1927 so if the watch was assembled in 1930 according to the case number, there is a fair discrepancy between movement completion and its use for the watch. This would be unusual but not unheard of. If the (visible part of the) movement measures ca. 40.5mm, it will be a Cal. 19''' N.V.S.I _sav_., later designation 19'''-34-2.

Hartmut Richter


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## Alistair Forsyth

Thank you for the insight! Very useful. On further inspection I can see the case was not made by Zenith. It was made in Birmingham by the Dennison watch case co. My grandfather would have worked in England in 1930 when it was assembled so that would seem correct. The case itself was made much earlier but I’ll have to continue my research to find out when.


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## sempervivens

Well, oddly enough the case number seems to be a correct Zenith case number for a gold case made in that period.


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## code6400

Hello, Could you help me identify this movement? Serial number is 3138xxx. I think its Zenith 10.5'''NSI or Zenith 106 but my movement is slightly different. Could you help me with size of balance wheel? Year - it is about 1937.

Thank you!


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## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum. It's a cal 10 ½-2 ca. 1938.


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## giangou

Hello I have a zenith gold watch but the serial number is only 5 and is 348xx but I can’t find anything in the web ! Can you help me please ?


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## Neowatcher

Hello, could you please help my to find the production year and maybe any other information?


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## sempervivens

giangou said:


> Hello I have a zenith gold watch but the serial number is only 5 and is 348xx but I can’t find anything in the web ! Can you help me please ?


Is it a movement number? Do you have some pictures?


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## joshd2012

Neowatcher said:


> Hello, could you please help my to find the production year and maybe any other information?
> View attachment 16864567
> View attachment 16864569
> View attachment 16864568


Based on the movement serial number, it appears to be 1956-1957.


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## Hartmut Richter

giangou said:


> Hello I have a zenith gold watch but the serial number is only 5 and is 348xx but I can’t find anything in the web ! Can you help me please ?


Welcome to Watchuseek! I would need to see more of the watch but it may well be from Zenith's dependency in Besancon, France (they started in the twenties or so and had lower serial numbers).

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Neowatcher said:


> Hello, could you please help my to find the production year and maybe any other information?
> View attachment 16864567
> View attachment 16864569
> View attachment 16864568


The numbers are unusually high and do suggest production c. 1956, but maybe Hartmut can tell more about the movement.


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## Hartmut Richter

Neowatcher's watch seems to have a Cal. 68 or 68-21 - but then, the numbers are under the balance. That movement was made from 1961-62 which doesn't really fit. The previous version was the Cal. 193 which is older (1941-42). Maybe this is an in between version of the movement, with a stem release pin rather than screw but without the swan neck regulator.....

Hartmut Richter


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## giangou

Hello, Hartmut Richter this is the watch !
On the back side is only 5 numbers and something like a small logo and I have to move the wheel on the side to work is not with battery I guess.
But I can’t find any year of manufacture or something about the watch!
If anyone can help me I will appreciate thank you !


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## giangou

sempervivens said:


> Is it a movement number? Do you have some pictures?





sempervivens said:


> Is it a movement number? Do you have some pictures?


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## Hartmut Richter

Hmmmm. For a start, the bracelet is obviously not original (the bracelet is only gold plated, the watch is solid gold - which they would avoid). Secondly, the number shown is the case serial number, which is different from the movement serial number. For the movement serial number, you would have to have the case opened up. Member sempervivens is quite good with case serial numbers but this is a gold case and the numbering system is different to that for plated or steel watches. Going merely by the watch's style, I would say that it is from the forties or early fifties.

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

The lettering on the dial seems a bit sloppy. The goldmark on the back (if it is a goldmark) is highly unusual. As is the low case number. All this causes serious doubt concerning its authenticity. You would have to open the case (any jeweller or watchmaker can help you) to check which movement is inside.


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## mamar

Hello,
I recently acquired a Zenith in a garage sell and I am having trouble to identify and date the watch.
the movement serial number is: 710xxx
révision sticker: 96.29.16.64
engraved number on the case back: 966342

Please enjoy some pictures of the movement and the dial for reference

Thanks in advance for any help, otherwise, please enjoy the pics


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## Hartmut Richter

A very nice watch, solid gold and from the late 1950s, with a Cal. 106-50-6:






bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Zenith 106-50-6







www.ranfft.de





The Cal. 106 was sort of a favourite at the Zenith dependency in Besancon and this was made there, as shown by the low movement serial number (at that time, the ones made in Le Locle had serial number in the 4 millions) and the lack of "Swiss Made" on the dial.

Hartmut Richter


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## mamar

Hello Hartmut,
many thanks for sharing your knowledge.


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## watch_mafia

Neowatcher said:


> Hello, could you please help my to find the production year and maybe any other information?
> View attachment 16864567
> View attachment 16864569
> View attachment 16864568


Wow! Nice piece!

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


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## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum. Beautiful dial, case and hands. Going by the case number, it is not in solid gold (would have been a lucky find in a garage sale!), but gold plated with stainless steel back, ca. early 1960's.


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> Welcome to the forum. Beautiful dial, case and hands. Going by the case number, it is not in solid gold (would have been a lucky find in a garage sale!), but gold plated with stainless steel back, ca. early 1960's.


Really? I went by the colour of the caseback (it looks yellowish to me from the piccies) since gold back means solid gold watch. However, it is probably a trick of the light.....

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Yes, the yellow light, but the case number is too high, for gold watches in Besançon they never reached the 250.000.


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