# Beware! Fake Fortis Flieger watches on the ebay



## WiZARD7

Hi All,

I just saw, that there are many fake Fliegers on the ebay. Both "complete" watches, both kits (dial+case+hands+rotor) missing only a movement, to create a fake watch. As I saw, they are usually sold from the UK, from various accounts.
If you search for "Fortis case" you will find them.
The most obvious tells:
-blue dial (never existed)
-strange white dial (the original looks different)
-low quality caseback (not even writing on the edge, "faded" logo in the center)

kit on ebay:








caseback:








fake blue dial:








fake white dial:








genuine white dial:


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## akajack

Many Fortis Marine Master SuperCompressor fakes - both finished and "kits" as above are sold on ebay out of the UK. They have an endless supply.


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## watchman2655

Yes sadly ebay has a lot of fake goods,hope you get your money back


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## J.D.

Please be careful out there ... if something's too good to be true you may be getting ripped off. eBay especially is somewhere you must have your guard up. It can still have good sellers, but just be extremely careful and ask questions. If you're unsure, post something here, let the group weigh in.


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## Kikemon

J.D. said:


> if something's too good to be true you may be getting ripped off.


This is the first rule of eBay!


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## eljay

I had a feeling this might be the case. Cheers.


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## levkov

I've managed to become a victim of one with a blue dial.. However luckily I own a genuine Flieger chrono, so compared to that I straight away spotted the shallow and uneven back engravings. Also, the crown surface around the Fortis logo has concentric circles on it, rather than sandblasted surface like the rest of the case. I'm sending it back for a refund, and will be reporting these to eBay. Apart from these tell-tales it's a pretty damn good quality case I have to admit!


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## fortysix

I bought one couple weeks ago....just for fun! had a spare movement at home

it was cheap, so why not  I don't want to sell it off as gen... and the quality is pretty good! 

Altough, I agree, the seller really should state that these are not genuine parts


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## gangrel

Hmm...so we have this headline...


Fleabay: Fake Fortis Fliegers Floating Foully



Not a bad lil tongue twister


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## levkov

Hi again, 
I'm back with few pictures i took from both my original Fortis Flieger & the FakeTis, as a side-by-side comparison.

The crown on the fake has a circular groove grain, while the original one is sandblasted, just like the rest of the case:

















Like the OP pointed out, the most obvious sign is the depth of the markings on the caseback. This is because the fake manufacturers cannot afford expensive machinery that cut markings deeper:

























>>Black dial: Original; Blue: Fake<< The dial is less obvious; the font serifs are slightly longer on the fake one, and the lume is not as smooth and slightly crackled. My pictures are not perfect, but makes the point I guess.









Hope it helps folks.


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## Brucy

Outstanding OP and levkov many many thanks


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## goodboi7000

Was about to pull the trigger on a Fortis Flieger Classic Chrono (without the bezel). It was described as LNIB and the buy now price was $600. Pictures were all low resolution, I kept zooming in and out and trying to figure out if it was worth buying or not. When someone else swooped in and bought it, I was furious with myself.
Still find it too good to be true. $600 for LNIB? I hope whoever bought it did not get screwed over.


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## cb1111

Low res pictures combined with other indicators (low price, no box) are a almost 100% indicator of a fake.


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## D Young

These sellers are also selling Hamilton Khaki "kits"


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## WiZARD7

1 more sign: The bracelet of the fakes has solid endlinks.

fake:








real:


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## eljay

Fake cockpit models have begun to appear. I'm surprised it has taken this long.


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## eljay

Fake Spacematics now too. The same seller(s), of course.


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## RudePilot

Glad i found this thread. I was seriously considering some of these. Almost bid on some on ebay.


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## Cecoulter

Thanks for taking te time to post this information and the super HD pics!


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## tag_mclaren

many thanks for this report! ...


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## ewanl

I almost bought one of these, newbie, no real horology experience except watching YouTube channels = wake up call.

Great to see this post 

Will be back frequently I think.

lol, the Franken-Flieger watch I almost bought is following me about in adverts - including on this thread!



eljay said:


> Fake cockpit models have begun to appear. I'm surprised it has taken this long.
> 
> View attachment 11063578


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## BSWTKR

ewanl said:


> I almost bought one of these, newbie, no real horology experience except watching YouTube channels = wake up call.
> 
> Great to see this post
> 
> Will be back frequently I think.
> 
> lol, the Franken-Flieger watch I almost bought is following me about in adverts - including on this thread!


too funny about the ads even here!

really informative post, thank you all for contributing. i always get nervous when viewing watches on ebay and amazon, and this info is perfect to both scare me (about what is out there) and give me confidence!


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## DOBBO40

Hi All, can anybody cast there opionion on this eBay item 292418010690 I personally think it is fake, but the chap seems genuine enough and has opened the watch up and added a photo of the movement.


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## Gopher

DOBBO40 said:


> Hi All, can anybody cast there opionion on this eBay item 292418010690 I personally think it is fake, but the chap seems genuine enough and has opened the watch up and added a photo of the movement.


Fake, fake, fake! The dial, hands, crown, caseback, and movement are all give-aways. Other than that, it's good.


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## impetusera

DOBBO40 said:


> Hi All, can anybody cast there opionion on this eBay item 292418010690 I personally think it is fake, but the chap seems genuine enough and has opened the watch up and added a photo of the movement.


100% fake. He probably bought it under the assumption it was genuine and is now reselling it.


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## Mcblow

Does this look genuine? any help appreciated


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## JimSclavunos

Here's another one that seems strange to me, any assistance in determining whether it's real would be highly appreciated. It's apparently a Flieger 593.10.46, but I can't find any other examples of that reference with that type of leather strap and a glass case back?


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## Nefarious-

Man, who even has the time


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## azkid

levkov said:


> Hi again,
> I'm back with few pictures i took from both my original Fortis Flieger & the FakeTis, as a side-by-side comparison.
> ...
> 
> Like the OP pointed out, the most obvious sign is the depth of the markings on the caseback. This is because the fake manufacturers cannot afford expensive machinery that cut markings deeper:
> 
> View attachment 9874482
> 
> 
> View attachment 9874498
> 
> 
> View attachment 9874506
> 
> 
> Hope it helps folks.


Almost looks like a poor casting of the original to me.


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## Sergeant Major

Are you guys saying a blue dial Fortis does not exist? Or a Flieger blue dial? 


As far as the fake quality. I know factories that can fool anyone except an ardent enthusiast or a watchmaker who deals with said brand. Fortis is not replicated by those factories which can get down to the smallest details and depths with their machinery. The polishing and fitting is almost the real tell. A loupe and some knowledge is almost required in these newer generation fakes.

Makes it hard to be a buyer because even a normal factory flaw can make someone say it is a fake.


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## outdoors_guy

This has been a helpful post. I have seen quite a few Fortis fliegers that I decided to stay away from, because the pictures of the products being sold looked a little too much like the replicas shown on this thread. I even saw some watches that I found suspicious on Chrono24.

I actually reached out to Fortis with links to the sales I found suspect and asked if they had a set of pictures to help separate real from replica, but they did not get back to me.

If anyone knows of a good repository of high res photos separating real from replica (photos that capture the distinguishing features ideally), it might be a fun little project to train a neural network. I am guessing no such picture set exists, but it would be a great tool if it did.


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## dugan.rec

Ok just found this post and find it incredibly helpful. I'm new to fortis, looking to pick up my first.

Thoughts on these two?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174285752060

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274357227668

Both look like reputable sellers, one is based in Germany and the other in USA/Canada. I'm US based. Leaning towards the Chrono. Thanks for your input!


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## Arkenik

Highly likely another FAKE "Fortis 
offical cosmonauts chronograph"


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## djgallo

Thanks for the heads up....sadly just a reminder that you almost really need to be “an expert” regarding the watch you are buying...


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## Arkenik

djgallo said:


> Thanks for the heads up....sadly just a reminder that you almost really need to be "an expert" regarding the watch you are buying...


Sad but true
I think that in most cases web search by ref# / model /...etcetera will help to find actual pictures & information about the current watch


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## noraaeel

Hi guys, I'm new to Fortis watches. Just picked up 1 from Japan serial number 597.10.141 and was hoping someone here can help. I find the crown being unsigned suspicious. Could it be 1st generation? Any more thoughts on this or know what year this watch was made?


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## RonD.

I think it's a fake. The dial is not sharp. The "8" for example. The crown should be marked.


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## OrelSaldy

WiZARD7 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I just saw, that there are many fake Fliegers on the ebay. Both "complete" watches, both kits (dial+case+hands+rotor) missing only a movement, to create a fake watch. As I saw, they are usually sold from the UK, from various accounts.
> If you search for "Fortis case" you will find them.
> The most obvious tells:
> -blue dial (never existed)
> -strange white dial (the original looks different)
> -low quality caseback (not even writing on the edge, "faded" logo in the center)
> 
> kit on ebay:
> View attachment 9488930
> 
> 
> caseback:
> View attachment 9488898
> 
> 
> fake blue dial:
> View attachment 9488906
> 
> 
> fake white dial:
> View attachment 9488914
> 
> 
> genuine white dial:
> View attachment 9488922


Wish I saw this sooner, stay sharp everyone!


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## Marzook1

Very important thread.
I used to own a b42 cosmonaut. Sold it long time ago and recently thinking of buying a new fortis. After looking on ebay almost pulled the trigger. I had no idea that there are fake fortis watches. Didn't think they were popular enough so fakers (I want to use a simillar word here...) could make a profit from making them.


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## levkov

Marzook1 said:


> Very important thread.
> I used to own a b42 cosmonaut. Sold it long time ago and recently thinking of buying a new fortis. After looking on ebay almost pulled the trigger. I had no idea that there are fake fortis watches. Didn't think they were popular enough so fakers (I want to use a simillar word here...) could make a profit from making them.


Same here; I used to have a Flieger Chrono which i sold ages ago. Cought myself missing it, so I thought why not go for a cheaper 2nd hand Flieger 3 hander instead? That until i saw the ocean of fakes, that put me off completely.. I think it's relatively safe to go for a chrono though, I was surprised to see few posts above that those too are being faked now, but they're nowhere near as good quality copies as the plain non-chrono versions


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## levkov

noraaeel said:


> Hi guys, I'm new to Fortis watches. Just picked up 1 from Japan serial number 597.10.141 and was hoping someone here can help. I find the crown being unsigned suspicious. Could it be 1st generation? Any more thoughts on this or know what year this watch was made?


Hey, welcome to the world of Fortis! 
I'm pretty confident this is genuine. 

Yes you're right, the first generation Fortis chrono's had small unsigned crowns like yours. The legend goes, in the 90's, Fortis approached the freshly formed Hungarian Air Force (after the fall of the Soviet Union, of which Hungary had been part of) to test out their Flieger Chronographs to seek advice about real life usability. 
The MiG29 pilots came back with two recommendations: 
1. larger crown that can be handled while wearing gloves 
2. protected pushers, as they kept knocking around the watch in the cockpit 

The first generation of 49th Air Force Combat Squadron Chronographs (issued to MiG29 pilots based in Papa) were supplied with a small, unsigned crown, and unprotected pushers. The second series (still Hungarian Air Force, but this time Kecskemet Air Base, mostly Mi24 combat helicopter Pilots) had a mixture of small & large crowns, unprotected and protected pushers. While the third, last series (Veszprem Air Base) only had the now finalized large, signed crown, and protected pushers. 

Fortis then applied these changes to the production models, which is why you can almost only see the large signed crowns these days. 

Now, how do i know all these? I had been after a Hungarian Air Force issued Fortis Chrono for 5+ years & did a thorough research on them. Am now a lucky owner of one of the first ones that was issued to a MiG29 pilot. It's 100% genuine, came with all the Fortis & Hungarian Army stamped paperwork:









Another clue in your watch is the cracked tritium lume in the minute hand, that too seems to indicate genuineity. Tritium was left behind by most manufacturers in favour of superluminova in the late 90's, while most fakes are only few years old. Tritium cracking takes looooong decades.. so all fakes are superluminova, which doesn't crack (yet? time will tell)

Hope this helps
Lev


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## noraaeel

levkov said:


> Hey, welcome to the world of Fortis!
> I'm pretty confident this is genuine.
> 
> Yes you're right, the first generation Fortis chrono's had small unsigned crowns like yours. The legend goes, in the 90's, Fortis approached the freshly formed Hungarian Air Force (after the fall of the Soviet Union, of which Hungary had been part of) to test out their Flieger Chronographs to seek advice about real life usability.
> The MiG29 pilots came back with two recommendations:
> 1. larger crown that can be handled while wearing gloves
> 2. protected pushers, as they kept knocking around the watch in the cockpit
> 
> The first generation of 49th Air Force Combat Squadron Chronographs (issued to MiG29 pilots based in Papa) were supplied with a small, unsigned crown, and unprotected pushers. The second series (still Hungarian Air Force, but this time Kecskemet Air Base, mostly Mi24 combat helicopter Pilots) had a mixture of small & large crowns, unprotected and protected pushers. While the third, last series (Veszprem Air Base) only had the now finalized large, signed crown, and protected pushers.
> 
> Fortis then applied these changes to the production models, which is why you can almost only see the large signed crowns these days.
> 
> Now, how do i know all these? I had been after a Hungarian Air Force issued Fortis Chrono for 5+ years & did a thorough research on them. Am now a lucky owner of one of the first ones that was issued to a MiG29 pilot. It's 100% genuine, came with all the Fortis & Hungarian Army stamped paperwork:
> View attachment 16542605
> 
> 
> Another clue in your watch is the cracked tritium lume in the minute hand, that too seems to indicate genuineity. Tritium was left behind by most manufacturers in favour of superluminova in the late 90's, while most fakes are only few years old. Tritium cracking takes looooong decades.. so all fakes are superluminova, which doesn't crack (yet? time will tell)
> 
> Hope this helps
> Lev


Hi Lev, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I've since passed on the watch. It wasn't cheap and I couldn't afford the risk of it being fake. Thanks for sharing your experience and u are really blessed to have obtained that watch of yours! 



Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## levkov

noraaeel said:


> Hi Lev, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I've since passed on the watch. It wasn't cheap and I couldn't afford the risk of it being fake. Thanks for sharing your experience and u are really blessed to have obtained that watch of yours!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


You're welcome & thank you 
I only saw the date of your post when i'd finished writing my little essay  I thought you must have got rid of it since, but i'd post it anyway, for future viewers


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## noraaeel

levkov said:


> You're welcome & thank you
> I only saw the date of your post when i'd finished writing my little essay  I thought you must have got rid of it since, but i'd post it anyway, for future viewers


All good! Yes, your post will definitely be helpful got other potential buyers, very insightful indeed. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Yeagger85

I'd like to ask for a little help. I bought a Fortis Flieger 595.10.46. 
At least I hope it's original. I bought it a in German forum. I also wrote to Fortis, but they would check it for quite a significant amount. An hour-old acquaintance of mine opened the watch, examined the structure, says it has ETA-2824-2 in it. Please be so kind as to help me. what do you think is my watch an original one? I attach a couple close-ups of it 
Thank You for Your help in advance!


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## rrocapu

Yeagger85 said:


> I'd like to ask for a little help. I bought a Fortis Flieger 595.10.46.
> At least I hope it's original. I bought it a in German forum. I also wrote to Fortis, but they would check it for quite a significant amount. An hour-old acquaintance of mine opened the watch, examined the structure, says it has ETA-2824-2 in it. Please be so kind as to help me. what do you think is my watch an original one? I attach a couple close-ups of it
> Thank You for Your help in advance!


Hi Yeagger85. I cannot tell about the movement, since I don't see it. But the rest of the watch is 100% original, rest assured about that. Given this, it's highly likely the movement inside is also original. What your watchmaker told you also matches the movement model this watch came with: ETA 2824-2.
Enjoy!


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## Yeagger85

Thank you very much for your help! it is a great pleasure for me that you have confirmed that it is original. Have a nice day!


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## Yeagger85

Yeagger85 said:


> Thank you very much for your help! it is a great pleasure for me that you have confirmed that it is original. Have a nice day!


The watchmaker measured +4 seconds a day, the movement works with a half-oscillation of 28,800. So it's probably an ETA 2824-2 )


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## levkov

Yeagger85 said:


> I'd like to ask for a little help. I bought a Fortis Flieger 595.10.46.
> At least I hope it's original. I bought it a in German forum. I also wrote to Fortis, but they would check it for quite a significant amount. An hour-old acquaintance of mine opened the watch, examined the structure, says it has ETA-2824-2 in it. Please be so kind as to help me. what do you think is my watch an original one? I attach a couple close-ups of it
> Thank You for Your help in advance!


+1 most likely original. Crispy back engravings, correct early unsigned crown + don't recall seeing this type of dial being faked. Nice catch, enjoy


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## Yeagger85

levkov said:


> +1 hasonló eredeti. Ropogós hátoldali metszetek, korrekt korai előjel nélküli korona + nem emlékszem, hogy ezt a típusú számlapot hamisítanák. Szép fogás, élvezd
> [/IDÉZET]





levkov said:


> +1 valószínűleg eredeti. Ropogós hátoldali metszetek, korrekt korai előjel nélküli korona + nem emlékszem, hogy ezt a típusú számlapot hamisítanák. Szép fogás, élvezd
> [/IDÉZET]





Yeagger85 said:


> The watchmaker measured +4 seconds a day, the movement works with a half-oscillation of 28,800. So it's probably an ETA 2824-2 )


Thank You for Your correct answer!
Meanwhile I found a flieger chronograph on ebay. The buckle of the strap is strange to me. Although this may still make the watch original, the box and papers are also included. I haven't bought this watch yet, but I'm looking for similar flieger. What do you think about this watch? Thanks for Your answer!


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## Yeagger85

levkov said:


> Hey, welcome to the world of Fortis!
> I'm pretty confident this is genuine.
> 
> Yes you're right, the first generation Fortis chrono's had small unsigned crowns like yours. The legend goes, in the 90's, Fortis approached the freshly formed Hungarian Air Force (after the fall of the Soviet Union, of which Hungary had been part of) to test out their Flieger Chronographs to seek advice about real life usability.
> The MiG29 pilots came back with two recommendations:
> 1. larger crown that can be handled while wearing gloves
> 2. protected pushers, as they kept knocking around the watch in the cockpit
> 
> The first generation of 49th Air Force Combat Squadron Chronographs (issued to MiG29 pilots based in Papa) were supplied with a small, unsigned crown, and unprotected pushers. The second series (still Hungarian Air Force, but this time Kecskemet Air Base, mostly Mi24 combat helicopter Pilots) had a mixture of small & large crowns, unprotected and protected pushers. While the third, last series (Veszprem Air Base) only had the now finalized large, signed crown, and protected pushers.
> 
> Fortis then applied these changes to the production models, which is why you can almost only see the large signed crowns these days.
> 
> Now, how do i know all these? I had been after a Hungarian Air Force issued Fortis Chrono for 5+ years & did a thorough research on them. Am now a lucky owner of one of the first ones that was issued to a MiG29 pilot. It's 100% genuine, came with all the Fortis & Hungarian Army stamped paperwork:
> View attachment 16542605
> 
> 
> Another clue in your watch is the cracked tritium lume in the minute hand, that too seems to indicate genuineity. Tritium was left behind by most manufacturers in favour of superluminova in the late 90's, while most fakes are only few years old. Tritium cracking takes looooong decades.. so all fakes are superluminova, which doesn't crack (yet? time will tell)
> 
> Hope this helps
> Lev


I apologize for the correction, I do it with good intentions.  The first Fortis Flieger Chronograph watches were made for the pilots of 47th Pápa Fighter Wing. I know them personally, I live in Pápa city, Hungary. They flown by MiG-21BIS and MiG-23 MF. Shortly after the pilots of 59th Szentgyörgyi Dezső Fighter Wing pilots recieved their Fortis Pilot Chronographs. So the first Hungarian Air Force Fortis where the Flieger version, and the next watches were Fortis Pilot Chronographs.


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## Yeagger85

Yeagger85 said:


> I apologize for the correction, I do it with good intentions.  The first Fortis Flieger Chronograph watches were made for the pilots of 47th Pápa Fighter Wing. I know them personally, I live in Pápa city, Hungary. They flown by MiG-21BIS and MiG-23 MF. Shortly after the pilots of 59th Szentgyörgyi Dezső Fighter Wing pilots recieved their Fortis Pilot Chronographs. So the first Hungarian Air Force Fortis where the Flieger version, and the next watches were Fortis Pilot Chronographs. Here is one of the original one of Fortis Flieger Chronograph from 47th Pápa Fighter Wing pilot.


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## levkov

Yeagger85 said:


> I apologize for the correction, I do it with good intentions.  The first Fortis Flieger Chronograph watches were made for the pilots of 47th Pápa Fighter Wing. I know them personally, I live in Pápa city, Hungary. They flown by MiG-21BIS and MiG-23 MF. Shortly after the pilots of 59th Szentgyörgyi Dezső Fighter Wing pilots recieved their Fortis Pilot Chronographs. So the first Hungarian Air Force Fortis where the Flieger version, and the next watches were Fortis Pilot Chronographs.


sending you a pm


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## levkov

Yeagger85 said:


> I apologize for the correction, I do it with good intentions.  The first Fortis Flieger Chronograph watches were made for the pilots of 47th Pápa Fighter Wing. I know them personally, I live in Pápa city, Hungary. They flown by MiG-21BIS and MiG-23 MF. Shortly after the pilots of 59th Szentgyörgyi Dezső Fighter Wing pilots recieved their Fortis Pilot Chronographs. So the first Hungarian Air Force Fortis where the Flieger version, and the next watches were Fortis Pilot Chronographs.


No problem at all, in fact, i stand corrected! Made an obvious mistake, of course I meant MiG21 and MiG23 pilots, who were the first to receive the Fortis Chrono's. Sent you a pm, let's discuss it in private, not to bore the others with this off-topic discussion. Cheers,


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## ABCSteed

Yeagger85 said:


> I'd like to ask for a little help. I bought a Fortis Flieger 595.10.46.
> At least I hope it's original. I bought it a in German forum. I also wrote to Fortis, but they would check it for quite a significant amount. An hour-old acquaintance of mine opened the watch, examined the structure, says it has ETA-2824-2 in it. Please be so kind as to help me. what do you think is my watch an original one? I attach a couple close-ups of it
> Thank You for Your help in advance!


This one is genuine


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## ABCSteed

Yeagger85 said:


> Thank You for Your correct answer!
> Meanwhile I found a flieger chronograph on ebay. The buckle of the strap is strange to me. Although this may still make the watch original, the box and papers are also included. I haven't bought this watch yet, but I'm looking for similar flieger. What do you think about this watch? Thanks for Your answer!
> View attachment 16783883
> View attachment 16783884
> View attachment 16783885





Yeagger85 said:


> Thank You for Your correct answer!
> Meanwhile I found a flieger chronograph on ebay. The buckle of the strap is strange to me. Although this may still make the watch original, the box and papers are also included. I haven't bought this watch yet, but I'm looking for similar flieger. What do you think about this watch? Thanks for Your answer!
> View attachment 16783883
> View attachment 16783884
> View attachment 16783885


This one is genuine. But have the wrong endlinks. The endlinks belongs tot the official cosmonauts series.


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## jerick70

You also need to beware on Etsy. I purchased a Fortis Flieger there and received it today. Definitely a fake. Fortunately the guy will take it back. I just hope I don't have to get my credit card involved.

BTW, thanks for posting this info. Very helpful for us watch enthusiasts that don't know the hallmarks of all brands.


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