# Where's the Most Bang for Buck In High Horology?



## WatchEater666

What do you guys think? What brands, especially on the used market, do you think offer the most watch for the money?

IMO, used Glashutte Original is some of the best watch for the money on the used market.


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## hub6152

Moser


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## gangrel

None of them. The question is oxymoronic, IMO.


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## jb.watching

Most watch for the money? I don’t think you can boil it down to a single brand. Several watches within several brands exist at any given time that I think may fit that bill. 

Take a look at some older Breguet, certain Lange references, certain UN pieces. The list goes on.


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## oso2276

gangrel said:


> None of them. The question is oxymoronic, IMO.


This

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## tarrda

Are you asking which watches hold their value the best? Which ones can I someday at least get my money back if I sell or perhaps increase in value over the years? That question is best answered using google or another search engine. I could do a search and find out for you...but you can do one for yourself. Sometimes the list differs slightly depending on who is answering the query. But most of the time the same watches keep coming up perhaps in different order or in no particular order. And then at what price point? if below a thousand it will differ..perhaps 10k, 20k, etc or perhaps below $100.00. Quartz or Mechanical? Still it will differ.


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## WatchEater666

gangrel said:


> None of them. The question is oxymoronic, IMO.


You get way more watch for the money buying something like a used Panomatic Lunar than you do a Submariner lol


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## ar7iste

Right now, I would say Moser, DeWitt, UN, Louis Moinet, HYT, Arnold and Son, Roger Dubuis, Girard Perregaux, Breguet and Blancpain (non LE) are really good to get on secondary market. Huge discounts for amazing pieces.


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## Nikrnic

I was really attracted to this titanium Louis Moinet (105g) when trying it on but had just bought a VC overseas 4500v









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## SethThomas

WatchEater666 said:


> What do you guys think? What brands, especially on the used market, do you think offer the most watch for the money?
> 
> IMO, used Glashutte Original is some of the best watch for the money on the used market.


It's hard to say, as there are many hard to define pieces of what is "high horology"

Used? I would, and have, put my money on Breguet.
Hand finishing work.
Distinct design, including hand turned guilloche, fired Grand Feu + hand painting.
Hand finished precious metal cases.
Movements finished and tuned to the degree one expectes of high end.
All for 50% or less of MSRP.
And far less than Stainless Sports Rolexes 

New it is a matter of taste. Probably Parmigiani. Fully integrated manufacturing with hand finished cases and movements. Including micro-rotors that get used by the other high-horology brands. They are 1/2 the price of most brands that use thier movement manufacturing arm (Vaucher). They have a polarizing style though.


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## grifball

Nikrnic said:


> I was really attracted to this titanium Louis Moinet (105g) when trying it on but had just bought a VC overseas 4500v
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


The Vacheron tends to sell well below retail pre-owned, right? Did you buy used or new?

I know there are a lot of great high horology brands out there, but Vacheron is certainly the lowest barrier to entry into the holy trinity these days.

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## JJ312

I’ll say used Lange.


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## Zhanming057

High horology is about so many different things that it's impossible to define 'value'. Do you care about tradition? Breguet has that but not everyone wants to wear a watch that looks like it came straight out of the 19th century. Do you care about hand finishing? Lange is obviously the gold standard but others may find the idea of paying for manual labor quaint and outdated. 

Complexity? JLC will sell you a 700 part watch for $40k. Mechanical innovation? Completely unique time display mechanisms? Too many things to pin down one definition of value.


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## ktg09

i think a tudor or even an omega is great bang for buck


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## ed21x

I'll try to answer. In terms of pricing, JLC seems to give you more complexity as their pieces increase in price. In the 6-10k range you are already getting a moonphase (JLC MC Ultra Thin) or a dead second in the Geophysics model. With more expensive pieces comes cooler complications, all the way up to 3d tourbillons, minute repeaters, annual calendars, etc. That is, if you care about complications. Even at millions of pounds, you'll see grand complications that combine all of these above, which is truly an insane demonstration of skill. 

The other brands in that pricing tier tend to focus more on exquisite finishing, precious metals, and brand status. All of these are good, but I find complications to be a bit more tangible.


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## arcadelt

ktg09 said:


> i think a tudor or even an omega is great bang for buck


...but are they high horology?


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## GrimFandango

What is "bang"? 

Especially in high horology people look at more than just how well something functions. That makes assigning a value very difficult. How do you value innovation or complexity in a movement? How do you value brand name, recognition and heritage? 

There's also the problem that "high horology" only compasses the insanely intricate and expensive. You could say bang per buck is something intentionally disregarded in this segment of the market.


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## MikeWatchUK

Zenith assuming you get the customary 40% discount is a good shout. 

I temporarily had a Zenith Defy 21 which I didn't get on with in the end, but the quality of what's going on inside that movement for c.£6,600 (after discount) is immense.


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## eblackmo

Benzinger.


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## eblackmo

Dornbleuth & Sohn






Quintus


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## eblackmo

Grand Seiko. Spring Drive.






9S


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## Reverend123!

Girard Perregaux for sure. Incredible value as long as you don't want to resell.


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## vince217

for me, probably JLC. watchmakers watchmaker, right?


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## Retumbo

High Horology, you say?










In all seriousness, probably GO depending on how wide a net you casting. If we take a narrow definition, probably Breguet.


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## TimexSocialClub

This is one of those impossible to answer questions. Everyone has an opinion. Most of the brands mentioned here are good contenders for this title.


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## BerutoSenpai

I want to know if you meant the brand itself or the watch? FC and TAG have tourbillon models. Not high end brands, but probably the most high end complication.


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## WatchEater666

TimexSocialClub said:


> This is one of those *impossible to answer questions.* Everyone has an opinion. Most of the brands mentioned here are good contenders for this title.


That's why it's fun.


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## AndyDav55

looked for a used H moser and Cie. High horology but at superb prices. I know Fed on YT pumps them a lot and ive held the pioneer and its amazing


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## Sam K

WatchEater666 said:


> That's why it's fun.


This. So much this. Questions that are easy to answer doesn't really make sense to bring up on forums, Google will have the answer.

My take on it would probably be Chopard LUC watches. They're putting out some pretty cool movements at reasonable prices, and can be great deals on the pre-owned market. GP, as previously mentioned, is also very good value as far as haute horology is concerned.


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## Cincy2

H. Moser and Cie followed closely by Arnold and Son. Both give you technical excellence at a relatively fair price. Whether you care for their aesthetics or not is a different dilemma. 

Cincy


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## Pongster

Credor


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## Cincy2

eblackmo said:


> Grand Seiko. Spring Drive.
> 
> 9S


If I'm being totally honest and objective, I agree....Grand Seiko for the finishes and the technology available.

Cincy


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## dbostedo

Cincy2 said:


> If I'm being totally honest and objective, I agree....Grand Seiko for the finishes and the technology available.
> 
> Cincy


Personally, I wouldn't consider most Grand Seiko's high-end, much less "high horology" (presuming that's being defined differently... usually it's the highest of high-end, I'd think).


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## blakestarhtown

ar7iste said:


> Right now, I would say Moser, DeWitt, UN, Louis Moinet, HYT, Arnold and Son, Roger Dubuis, Girard Perregaux, Breguet and Blancpain (non LE) are really good to get on secondary market. Huge discounts for amazing pieces.


I was going to post the exact some response.


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## Ayreonaut

1990's Blancpain and other lesser known high end brands. I find that this is the era the materials started getting really solid, so that good examples still look almost brand new, not deteriorated like other older watches.


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## mnf67

Ayreonaut said:


> 1990's Blancpain and other lesser known high end brands. I find that this is the era the materials started getting really solid, so that good examples still look almost brand new, not deteriorated like other older watches.


Totally agree- 90s Blancpain and, if you can find them, Roger Dubuis Hommage models from that era, are amazing value considering the materials, finishing, and design.


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## oztech

Another vote for JLC .


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## Buddy2

Agree with the mention of Blancpain early period.
Ulysse Nardin I think should also be considered if bought pre-owned.
New I would have to say Grand Seiko best bang for the buck is right up there.
Investment wise, Patek Nautilus has to be considered best bank for the buck if you can get one new at MSRP.


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## dbostedo

Buddy2 said:


> Patek Nautilus has to be considered best bank for the buck if you can get one new at MSRP.


Or Aquanaut (5167) at MSRP... simply because flipping is then an easy option. They're all listed for $40K+ on Chrono24, with an MSRP of $24,840 on bracelet.

Compare that to the Nautilus (5711) which are listed at pretty much $70K+, and have an MSRP of $33,710. The Aquanaut is getting pretty close to the same scale of increase.


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## Tomatoes11

Used Lange’s if they still drop by like 50% off the lot .


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## Tohono Rat

Frodsham Double Impulse Chronometer. For the price you get one of the most important movement designs of the last 10-20 years... a 22k case... all in-house, hand made... immaculate finishing in the understated English style... rarity. I do not have the scratch for one, but it is excellent value, IMHO.


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## Reeser1

H. Moser are excellent bank for buck on the secondary market. No secret anymore since I am seeing fewer up for sale in the last 6 months.


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## Crunchy

I think JLC can make really fine complications and practical watches without the premium attached to Patek or big 3.


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## MisterV

Smaller brands, especially those led by a single watchmaker, like Silberstein let's say (I mean... whether one likes the style or not is another thing, he is definitely an artist and a member of the haute horlogerie circles). A lot of them are nearly forgotten (crazy complications of BLU, anyone?) and sold at what, 70-80% off? It would be a lot of value for money, but not resale value.

Also, didn't Hajime Asaoka launch his sort-of-affordable brand, under 5K? And Kudoke I believe came up with a beautiful watch that's under 5K as well?


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## dbostedo

MisterV said:


> Also, didn't Hajime Asaoka launch his sort-of-affordable brand, under 5K?


Yeah... Kurono Tokyo. One of them is nominated in the Challenge category for GPHG this year.


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## WatchEater666

Crunchy said:


> I think JLC can make really fine complications and practical watches without the premium attached to Patek or big 3.


I don't think the finishing is comparable though. I love JLC but definitely a step down from Patek or Lange finishing wise.


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## dwalby

Tohono Rat said:


> View attachment 15485704


Nice looking watch, but I'd prefer they oriented all the numerals vertically instead of rotating them around the dial like that.


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## dbostedo

dwalby said:


> Nice looking watch, but I'd prefer they oriented all the numerals vertically instead of rotating them around the dial like that.


To my mind, that's better than flippng the numbers along the bottom. But it is nice with all vertical numbers too (a bit rough here, but gives a good idea)...


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## kritameth

dbostedo said:


> Or Aquanaut (5167) at MSRP... simply because flipping is then an easy option. They're all listed for $40K+ on Chrono24, with an MSRP of $24,840 on bracelet.
> 
> Compare that to the Nautilus (5711) which are listed at pretty much $70K+, and have an MSRP of $33,710. The Aquanaut is getting pretty close to the same scale of increase.


+1. 5711 will likely hit $100k+ in a matter of a few years' time.


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## Tohono Rat

dbostedo said:


> To my mind, that's better than flippng the numbers along the bottom. But it is nice with all vertical numbers too (a bit rough here, but gives a good idea)...
> 
> View attachment 15490899


I get your point. But look at the blueing!








Personally, that is one reason I prefer the roman numeral version better...


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## ndrs63

arcadelt said:


> ...but are they high horology?


Not at all. Omega and Tudor are well made watches, but not even close To haute horologie. Not even Rolex

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## ChronoTraveler

No love for Bovet?


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## MisterV

Oh absolutely, lots of love for Bovet. However, they make me think that - even though I could get afford to get one of their watches from Chrono24 - their maintenance costs and value drop would probably make it hilariously "unreasonable". I am saving them for the moment where I can really say - **** it, 10 grand, I don't care about value loss, I'll just get it.


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## Sergeant Major

Speake Marin.
My Face to Face listed at $30,000 USD. Covid caused some restructuring and the need for quick cash. I got my baby for near 6,000 dollars. This was my Grail and I thought I would never afford it.

120hour power reserve is cool, warm butter smooth winding, skulls, one of one. What more could I ask. I may send it to the watch maker and get some blues hands to match the blue of the rotar. Maybe I will get some proper pics of her.


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## WatchEater666

Sergeant Major said:


> Speake Marin.
> My Face to Face listed at $30,000 USD. Covid caused some restructuring and the need for quick cash. I got my baby for near 6,000 dollars. This was my Grail and I thought I would never afford it.
> 
> 120hour power reserve is cool, warm butter smooth winding, skulls, one of one. What more could I ask. I may send it to the watch maker and get some blues hands to match the blue of the rotar. Maybe I will get some proper pics of her.
> 
> View attachment 15503378


You got that brand new from the brand for only 6k? :0


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## Sergeant Major

WatchEater666 said:


> You got that brand new from the brand for only 6k? :0


It was bought at Watch Outlet in Sarasota, FL. It looks like they bought in as a lot.

I wrote Speake Marin and the customer service and watch maker replied, even sent me some swag. Yes, 6200 was the price and I even negotiated a military discount.


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## WatchEater666

Sergeant Major said:


> It was bought at Watch Outlet in Sarasota, FL. It looks like they bought in as a lot.
> 
> I wrote Speake Marin and the customer service and watch maker replied, even sent me some swag. Yes, 6200 was the price and I even negotiated a military discount.


Wicked!


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## Sergeant Major

WatchEater666 said:


> Wicked!


Good **** never happens to me. My first thoughts were a fake. I spoke to Levi at TWO (the watch outlet) and they had guarantee of authenticity, plus a 2 year warranty.

But because I am suspicious of too good to be true events I reached out to SM. They looked at the watch and the accompanying letter and told me congrats!

So to find a personal grail like this at the price was like finding an unboxed rolex 6536 with papers at a backwoods pawn shop.


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## ChronoTraveler

MisterV said:


> Oh absolutely, lots of love for Bovet. However, they make me think that - even though I could get afford to get one of their watches from Chrono24 - their maintenance costs and value drop would probably make it hilariously "unreasonable". I am saving them for the moment where I can really say - **** it, 10 grand, I don't care about value loss, I'll just get it.


I love their watches, although I don't think I could wear one (just too classical for my style and places I go).

By the way, I like your avatar. Favorite TG movie.


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## MisterV

Right??? It's one of my all-time favourites. I've been trying for ages to get a full size poster of it (old-school, I know, but it would make for incredible wall decor if properly framed), and it seems to be impossible. And it's generally like a nearly unknown masterpiece.

Ahem. I think there's always a place for a special occasions watch, I sometimes wear one (not a Bovet, just something dressy) at home when I do stuff that I like, because... why not?


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## Petrus001

There are sort of three price-to-value strategies that can turn a profit:

1. Sell the best at the highest price,
2. Sell a lot of product at the lowest price,
3. Sell the best value.

There really is no such thing as bang for buck in category 1, in which high horology would be located. Bargains would be found in category three.


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## WatchEater666

Petrus001 said:


> There are sort of three price-to-value strategies that can turn a profit:
> 
> 1. Sell the best at the highest price,
> 2. Sell a lot of product at the lowest price,
> 3. Sell the best value.
> 
> There really is no such thing as bang for buck in category 1, in which high horology would be located. Bargains would be found in category three.


Used there certainly is? For example, Lange provides better quality watches than Patek at a lower price point on the used market.


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## Petrus001

WatchEater666 said:


> Used there certainly is? For example, Lange provides better quality watches than Patek at a lower price point on the used market.


I can see your point in that high horology includes significantly depreciated watches on the preowned market. So the question then becomes which "high" watches depreciate most rapidly while losing actual quality least rapidly (making the best bargain)?


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## GrouchoM

Petrus001 said:


> There are sort of three price-to-value strategies that can turn a profit:
> 
> 1. Sell the best at the highest price,
> 2. Sell a lot of product at the lowest price,
> 3. Sell the best value.
> 
> There really is no such thing as bang for buck in category 1, in which high horology would be located. Bargains would be found in category three.


Where does Rolex fall on this?


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## Petrus001

GrouchoM said:


> Where does Rolex fall on this?


Among the market comprising all watch brands, definitely Rolex is a 1.
We can definitively eliminate 2. Rolex would be a 3. only with respect to other "high horological" watches. But not with respect to a Steinhart or Ginault for example, due to Rolex's high demand and low availability.

Among HH watches I don't really see sub-tiers. Rather, I see it as a kind of oligopoly. Similarly to how a low brow type such as myself might frequent both McDonald's, Burger King and Wendy's in the same week, someone in the market for a Rolex likely also would be in the market for owning a Patek in addition to - and not instead of - the Rolex. I don't see any "cheapest" (2) or "value" (3) options within the High Horologocal tier.


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## dbostedo

Petrus001 said:


> ...someone in the market for a Rolex likely also would be in the market for owning a Patek in addition to - and not instead of - the Rolex.


I see Rolex and Patek as having very different customer bases.


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## Petrus001

dbostedo said:


> I see Rolex and Patek as having very different customer bases.


And you may well be 100% correct on that. I'm willing to admit there's much I don't know, and as you may be able to tell, I am not in either customer base myself, although I aspire some day to perhaps a preowned Explorer. More of a Seiko guy myself, but with great respect for the big Swiss cheeses.


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## GrouchoM

I don't think Rolex falls into any of your three categories.


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## WatchEater666

dbostedo said:


> I see Rolex and Patek as having very different customer bases.


Yeah, Rolex buyers think that something like the YG blue dial submariner is peak class (lol)


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## Petrus001

GrouchoM said:


> I don't think Rolex falls into any of your three categories.


One important piece of data is: Which companies are Rolex's competitors? the three categories are relative to competitors in the market.


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## Pongster

I think it must first be established what comprisea High Horology. Is it same as a High End watch?


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## illition

Look for Daniel Roth used


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## Petrus001

Pongster said:


> I think it must first be established what comprisea High Horology. Is it same as a High End watch?


Agreed! I was assuming "high" meant high price, ie 5 figures and above. But it also could refer to a more regal style, a higher level of complication, or even the level of THC in the watchmakers system at the time of manufacture.


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## dbostedo

Petrus001 said:


> Agreed! I was assuming "high" meant high price, ie 5 figures and above. But it also could refer to a more regal style, a higher level of complication, or even the level of THC in the watchmakers system at the time of manufacture.


I don't think "high" in "high end" or "high horology" refers to price. Those watches _happen_ to usually be high priced (or very high priced) but it refers more to the skill, craftsmanship, and quality. For instance, because Rolex doesn't typically do much fine finishing/polishing of their movements, they are not usually considered high-end no matter how expensive they are.

Now whether high-end is different than high-horology is debatable. Personally, I think of high-horology as trying to do something unique (Richard Mille), very difficult (lots of complications, fancy complications), or that advances design or techniques (crazy materials and finishing). So a simple three hander, if the movement is standard, wouldn't ever be high-horology. But that's just my impression - there's a bunch of definitions and nothing official that I'm aware of.


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## Petrus001

dbostedo said:


> I don't think "high" in "high end" or "high horology" refers to price. Those watches _happen_ to usually be high priced (or very high priced) but it refers more to the skill, craftsmanship, and quality. For instance, because Rolex doesn't typically do much fine finishing/polishing of their movements, they are not usually considered high-end no matter how expensive they are.
> 
> Now whether high-end is different than high-horology is debatable. Personally, I think of high-horology as trying to do something unique (Richard Mille), very difficult (lots of complications, fancy complications), or that advances design or techniques (crazy materials and finishing). So a simple three hander, if the movement is standard, wouldn't ever be high-horology. But that's just my impression - there's a bunch of definitions and nothing official that I'm aware of.


Now we're getting onto some real brass tacks definitions. I would have thought of Rolex as high end, but I'm like an ant looking up in the sky and trying to distinguish between an eagle and an osprey. Then again those closest to the issue may be the least apt to make accurate big picture distinctions, due to the uncertainty principle. What *you* consider "bang" for your buck will depend heavily on which of these qualities is most important to you. But I'd we want to really compare apples ?s to ?s then we have to nail down which definition we're talking about.


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## mlcor

Rolex is viewed by the vast majority of people as the highest of high end. I did, too, until I got into this hobby and started learning about it, and what high end really was.

I would say Rolex right now, in the current bubble market, has no real competitors. Why? See my point above--most people who don't know a lot about watches but want something perceived as super high end want a Rolex because Rolex has done a spectacular marketing job on their brand. That type of customer thinks (and believes others will think) they've reached the pinnacle of success and wealth because they flash one around.

Rolex has also done an amazing (if Machiavellian) job managing supply by metering the availability of the models most in demand such that ordinary people who aren't major pre-existing customers can't buy those models except at massively inflated prices through resellers.

Now, I am not bashing Rolex, they make fine, durable and iconic pieces (one of which I own). But their phenomenal success doesn't have anything to do with high horology.


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## Nikrnic

I recently purchased, well..almost a year now a VC Overseas 4500V. Incredible Sports three hander but looking at a used fifty-six with its mix of sporty dress it seems like a hard one to beat when you say bang for the buck being easily under 10k. Of course it falls between a love it or leave type of piece although I'm left undecided.

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## Petrus001

mlcor said:


> Rolex is viewed by the vast majority of people as the highest of high end. I did, too, until I got into this hobby and started learning about it, and what high end really was.
> 
> I would say Rolex right now, in the current bubble market, has no real competitors. Why? See my point above--most people who don't know a lot about watches but want something perceived as super high end want a Rolex because Rolex has done a spectacular marketing job on their brand. That type of customer thinks (and believes others will think) they've reached the pinnacle of success and wealth because they flash one around.
> 
> Rolex has also done an amazing (if Machiavellian) job managing supply by metering the availability of the models most in demand such that ordinary people who aren't major pre-existing customers can't buy those models except at massively inflated prices through resellers.
> 
> Now, I am not bashing Rolex, they make fine, durable and iconic pieces (one of which I own). But their phenomenal success doesn't have anything to do with high horology.








Home - Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie


Stay informed about the latest news and learn more about the history, the markets and the know-how of the watch industry with HH Magazine, the journal of the Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie (FHH).




www.hautehorlogerie.org


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## mlcor

Petrus001 said:


> Home - Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie
> 
> 
> Stay informed about the latest news and learn more about the history, the markets and the know-how of the watch industry with HH Magazine, the journal of the Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie (FHH).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hautehorlogerie.org


Um, it's a trade organization founded by a bunch of watch brands with dozens of brands participating, several of which are decidedly not high end. Not independent, nor an indication that all of the brands that are "partners" are high end.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Petrus001

mlcor said:


> Um, it's a trade organization founded by a bunch of watch brands with dozens of brands participating, several of which are decidedly not high end. Not independent, nor an indication that all of the brands that are "partners" are high end.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't have any training or experience in this, so I'm not qualified to have an opinion. But I see FHH provides training and certifications, and they appear to operate with sponsorship of, or at least apparent consent to name, numerous brands identified as part of a culture of "haute horlogerie", this seems like a credible industry standard for what is "high horology". Is there another industry organization that more credibly defines that term?


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## Petrus001

Petrus001 said:


> I can see your point in that high horology includes significantly depreciated watches on the preowned market. So the question then becomes which "high" watches depreciate most rapidly while losing actual quality least rapidly (making the best bargain)?


Adding to this, you could research the Institut de la Haute Horlogerie's website, figure out which "trends" they identify as current, and therefore sans doute the most expensive, and then look for a "bang for buck" among watches that are currently considered either obsolete, outdated, or not in accord with the trend.


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## dbostedo

Petrus001 said:


> I don't have any training or experience in this, so I'm not qualified to have an opinion. But I see FHH provides training and certifications, and they appear to operate with sponsorship of, or at least apparent consent to name, numerous brands identified as part of a culture of "haute horlogerie", this seems like a credible industry standard for what is "high horology". Is there another industry organization that more credibly defines that term?


The other issue is that some brands may make a watch or two that meets the qualifications of high-end or high-horology, but that doesn't mean the _brand_ would generally be viewed that way.

For instance, Montblanc is on that list. Most of their watches are decidedly not "high" anything. But they make a few watches - particularly the Minerva-based chronographs - that are definitely high-end. There are quite a few brands like that in the list. But that doesn't mean that saying "Montblanc is high-end" makes sense.


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## WatchEater666

Don't get so lost in semantics guys. 😄🙃👴😅


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## Age_of_Surfaces

Off the top of my head and in alphabetical order:

Akrivia
Grönefeld
H. Moser & Cie.
J. N. Shapiro
Krayon
Laurent Ferrier
Parmigiani Fleurier

So much to appreciate here and in any number of other brands not mentioned. Price-to-value ratio is a much more difficult thing to ascertain, so I've just focused on watches I consider to be 'high horology.'


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## Tohono Rat

Brands are not "high horology." *Watches* are. Many mid-range brands create one or two decent "high horology" watches to show they can. The Omega De Ville Central Tourbillon comes to mind. Tons of examples. Whether they are "good bang for the buck" is another matter. However, I recommend buying the watch and not the brand.


----------



## GrouchoM

Tohono Rat said:


> Brands are not "high horology." *Watches* Tons of examples.


Mmmm... Tons of high end watches? That's a lot of watches. That's not at Seth's, is it?


----------



## Tohono Rat

GrouchoM said:


> Mmmm... Tons of high end watches? That's a lot of watches. That's not at Seth's, is it?


Well... since we are weighing examples and not watches ("Tons of *examples*_" _wrote I), I stand by my original statement.*

* According to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (U.S. Department of Commerce), "the average weight of an example is 731.81 pounds." Thus, one only needs three examples to exceed a ton. Note: The E.U. standard is, interestingly, 335.0 kilos per example which is 738.54 pounds. And their ton is metric (1000 kilos or 2204.62 pounds). This disparity may well explain some of your confusion, Groucho, in which case, I understand. The Brits, of course, call it a "tonne" (and a pound is money rather than a measure of weight) which explains why British exports of examples have plummeted since the Brexit vote.


----------



## Bad.R

If you want the best value for the money you should get a Seiko, because with Luxury watches you are paying more for the "Luxury" and the best value in that category is definitely independant watch brands like FP Journe or Moser


----------



## WatchEater666

Bad.R said:


> If you want the best value for the money you should get a Seiko, because with Luxury watches you are paying more for the "Luxury" and the best value in that category is definitely independant watch brands like FP Journe or Moser


Agreed with Moser but FPJ is definitely pricey for what you get on the used market now.


----------



## Bad.R

WatchEater666 said:


> Agreed with Moser but FPJ is definitely pricey for what you get on the used market now.


yes that's true, but i think it makes sense because FP Journe make more complications than Moser


----------



## dbostedo

Bad.R said:


> yes that's true, but i think it makes sense because FP Journe make more complications than Moser


Sure... but the simpler FP Journes (the Chronometre Bleu for instance) is trading at like $60K on the used market. Prices are crazy for all Journe's right now.


----------



## Bad.R

dbostedo said:


> Sure... but the simpler FP Journes (the Chronometre Bleu for instance) is trading at like $60K on the used market. Prices are crazy for all Journe's right now.


Well that's the problem with the luxury market which is the demand, the retail price for Cronometre Blue is actually 23k, but because of the high demand the price jumped to 50-60K, and if you want the most value for the money it is definitely not something liked by the crowd because the watch gonna be overpriced just like the chronometre blue


----------



## HarrisLam

I second the notion that this question is oxymoronic. Of course in a relative sense there must be winners and losers if we merely consider it in a scale. It's just that in the absolute sense, none of them are "worth it" if you only consider the watches for what they are.

With that out of the way, I would nominate :

Brequet with complications
- for the contribution to advancements of the entire industry. Glorious history. The fact that it is somehow an underdog to the outside world only adds to the flavor in my opinion.

Glashutte Original with unique designs
- Signature Panomaticlunar and Senator designs. You could argue that PML takes heavy inspirations from Lange 1 moonphase, but then A Lange options are definitely outside the "bang for buck" realm so, Glashutte Original it is. Its big date is better than A Lange big date, by the way.

JLC with.... everything, really
- for a brand that's considered the grandfather of the triangle, the selection is surprisingly cheap, or should I say, "cheaper". The ones loaded with complications still cost limbs, but less limbs than the trinity, I guess. Again, the underdog flavor at play.

At the end of the day the things that we consider as horology fans are all pretty vague. If you talk solely about mechanical value, I think Glashutte Original is the way to go. History, "precious metals on gear" and odd-ball complications are pretty meh in the realistic sense. I mean, that's why they are called luxury, right?


----------



## Tsujigiri

dbostedo said:


> I see Rolex and Patek as having very different customer bases.


Likely true among the enthusiast crowd, but we have to remember that probably the majority of those brands' customers don't really know much about watches and just want an expensive trophy that's widely recognized as high end. Since those are the two most hyped brands right now (along with Audemars' RO line), I'd say they share a lot of the same customer base.


----------



## dbostedo

Tsujigiri said:


> Likely true among the enthusiast crowd, but we have to remember that probably the majority of those brands' customers don't really know much about watches and just want an expensive trophy that's widely recognized as high end. Since those are the two most hyped brands right now (along with Audemars' RO line), I'd say they share a lot of the same customer base.


Oh sure, there's definitely crossover/commonality. But Rolex is so much more common, and so much better known, and (mostly) so much cheaper, that I'd think the overall pool of people interested in a Rolex is much bigger, and very differently composed, than the pool or people interested in a Patek. I'd guess the crossover of people interested in both is comparatively a small part of the overall Rolex pool.


----------



## mykii

dbostedo said:


> Oh sure, there's definitely crossover/commonality. But Rolex is so much more common, and so much better known, and (mostly) so much cheaper, that I'd think the overall pool of people interested in a Rolex is much bigger, and very differently composed, than the pool or people interested in a Patek. I'd guess the crossover of people interested in both is comparatively a small part of the overall Rolex pool.


The pool of Rolex buyers is indeed larger, but the proportion of Rolex buyers who would also be willing to pay above retail is also far higher. Most people come to Patek et al. looking for a discount/used pieces/value buys, whereas many people are forced to pay two-fold the RRP of a Rolex.

It's all the same at the end of the day; its signaling power and Rolex's RRP is superfluous as it is the most recognized and desirable brand out there whereas people will still want a Patek oftentimes still for the prestige/RRP/signaling but most would like a discount if they can get one.

Same same but different.


----------



## mhz > vph

Chopard LUC 16/1860/2

A movement that surpasses the patek 240 wedded to a gorgeous solid gold dial by metalem, all for a price in the neighborhood of 10,000 USD


----------



## dinexus

mhz > vph said:


> Chopard LUC 16/1860/2
> 
> A movement that surpasses the patek 240 wedded to a gorgeous solid gold dial by metalem, all for a price in the neighborhood of 10,000 USD


The modern Chopard LUC has got to be the single most underrated collection in watchmaking. Insane value when you survey the detail and the competitive landscape, even at full retail.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tohono Rat

mhz > vph said:


> Chopard LUC 16/1860/2
> 
> A movement that surpasses the patek 240 wedded to a gorgeous solid gold dial by metalem, all for a price in the neighborhood of 10,000 USD


Is that a current model? I cannot seem to find it on their website.


----------



## mhz > vph

Tohono Rat said:


> Is that a current model? I cannot seem to find it on their website.


Sadly no, this was one model in the first ever model family launched by the LUC brand of Chopard in 1997. They sell a similar model today with a movement very similar to the calibre1.96 in the original, but neither the dial nor the movement are as nice as this original model.


----------



## dinexus

Tohono Rat said:


> Is that a current model? I cannot seem to find it on their website.


Don't forget that the LUC 1860 is still part of the brand's catalog, it just looks a little different now. It's also available in steel, and it's still a hell of a value.


----------



## Maiden

I think this one is pretty good. Just sized up today.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tsujigiri

dinexus said:


> The modern Chopard LUC has got to be the single most underrated collection in watchmaking. Insane value when you survey the detail and the competitive landscape, even at full retail.


Completely agree, I'm amazed that even the limited editions can be found at a discount when you consider how universally praised their watchmaking is and the fact that Chopard as a whole is actually a decent sized and recognizable brand. The LUC line is like the best of both worlds between a small high end brand and a large one. You get the worldwide support and corporate stability of a large brand, along with things like an in-house gold foundry that a smaller brand couldn't afford. But then you also get the exclusivity, attention to detail, and uniqueness of a small brand, since they only make about 4k-5k watches in the LUC line a year.



mhz > vph said:


> Sadly no, this was one model in the first ever model family launched by the LUC brand of Chopard in 1997. They sell a similar model today with a movement very similar to the calibre1.96 in the original, but neither the dial nor the movement are as nice as this original model.


To add to this, they do have modern versions with a dial and movement that are just as nice as the original, but they are all limited editions. The one in the photo below is the model I picked, since I liked the more modern style, larger size, and hacking seconds. But I can see why people who like smaller watches would gravitate towards the original, which looks very similar to some versions of the Philippe Dufour Simplicity. As mhz said, the regularly available models now have a pared down version of the movement that doesn't feature the anglage or black polishing, and the dials don't have guilloche. The exception is the platinum case model, which is non-limited but has the Geneva Seal movement (it doesn't have the guilloche dial, though).


----------



## Tohono Rat

Tsujigiri said:


> Completely agree, I'm amazed that even the limited editions can be found at a discount when you consider how universally praised their watchmaking is and the fact that Chopard as a whole is actually a decent sized and recognizable brand. The LUC line is like the best of both worlds between a small high end brand and a large one. You get the worldwide support and corporate stability of a large brand, along with things like an in-house gold foundry that a smaller brand couldn't afford. But then you also get the exclusivity, attention to detail, and uniqueness of a small brand, since they only make about 4k-5k watches in the LUC line a year.
> 
> To add to this, they do have modern versions with a dial and movement that are just as nice as the original, but they are all limited editions. The one in the photo below is the model I picked, since I liked the more modern style, larger size, and hacking seconds. But I can see why people who like smaller watches would gravitate towards the original, which looks very similar to some versions of the Philippe Dufour Simplicity. As mhz said, the regularly available models now have a pared down version of the movement that doesn't feature the anglage or black polishing, and the dials don't have guilloche. The exception is the platinum case model, which is non-limited but has the Geneva Seal movement (it doesn't have the guilloche dial, though).


Very nice. From an entirely personal aesthetic POV, I am not a fan of the shape of the hands on these newer models. But that is just a preference. Overall, lovely. Enjoy.


----------



## Crabman1972

Maiden said:


> I think this one is pretty good. Just sized up today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A class act.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## WTSP

I think Horage offers a pretty good value proposition with its $10k tourbillon.


----------



## Megalobyte

Glashutte Original. Blancpain. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## carlings

I actually disagree with those picking JLC To a degree. Look at their simple models in gold, like the MUT small seconds. It’s priced like a Lange Saxonia Thin, yet its finishing is nowhere near it. Simple Pateks and VCs are not much more expensive either. Or you can get a Moser. 

I like JLC but one of the problems I have with the brand is that their pricing just makes me want to pay slightly more to get a top brand, at least when considering gold models.


----------



## 427shark

Tough question , what constitutes bang for buck & high horology. . If you get get a ss sport model rolex at msrp or below ,you will most likely not lose a penny after sale. If you just want a large discount on a "high end" watch brand search luxury websites and look for the highest discount. . Overall I'd say Zenith is alot of watch for what you pay pre-owned for a number of reasons .


----------



## En_Nissen

carlings said:


> I actually disagree with those picking JLC To a degree. Look at their simple models in gold, like the MUT small seconds. It's priced like a Lange Saxonia Thin, yet its finishing is nowhere near it. Simple Pateks and VCs are not much more expensive either. Or you can get a Moser.
> 
> I like JLC but one of the problems I have with the brand is that their pricing just makes me want to pay slightly more to get a top brand, at least when considering gold models.


I completely agree with you.

And to expand, I think there's a general tendency to view JLC as if all their models are equal, which is extremely far from true. 
Their entry level models (and their gold equivalents) have quite basic machine made finish, that's only well made of you compare it to Omega, while not even comparable to high horology brands.

You have to get into their high complications to get any kind of high horology finish, and when you get to those, you also pay prices comparable to haute horology brands like Lange, and not their entry level models either.

I'm not saying JLC doesn't do good finish, they're just not the bargain everyone seems to think they are when it comes to finish, and they're not all equal.


----------



## WTSP

427shark said:


> Tough question , what constitutes bang for buck & high horology. . If you get get a ss sport model rolex at msrp or below ,you will most likely not lose a penny after sale. If you just want a large discount on a "high end" watch brand search luxury websites and look for the highest discount. . Overall I'd say Zenith is alot of watch for what you pay pre-owned for a number of reasons .


Almost all Rolex watches don't qualify as high end, mainly mid tier. Same applies for Zenith except for a few of their Academy pieces.


----------



## 427shark

WTSP said:


> Almost all Rolex watches don't qualify as high end, mainly mid tier. Same applies for Zenith except for a few of their Academy pieces.


Everyone's definition of high end differs . That's why I said it's a tough question to answer


----------



## dbostedo

427shark said:


> Everyone's definition of high end differs


Yes, but there's an at-least-somewhat consistent definition for the purposes of this forum.


----------



## WTSP

427shark said:


> Everyone's definition of high end differs . That's why I said it's a tough question to answer


I've made it a personal crusade to define this (part time). Here's my latest effort:
Yes. It belongs here.

As dbostedo pointed out, there originally was a deliberately vague definition, but based on the list of brands in his original post it seems to me that Ernie Romers set the bar higher than Rolex.
A High-end watches forum. Why?


----------



## 427shark

WTSP said:


> I've made it a personal crusade to define this (part time). Here's my latest effort:
> Yes. It belongs here.
> 
> As dbostedo pointed out, there originally was a deliberately vague definition, but based on the list of brands in his original post it seems to me that Ernie Romers set the bar higher than Rolex.
> A High-end watches forum. Why?


Wow, well said & good points made


----------



## WTSP

427shark said:


> Wow, well said & good points made


Thanks for obliging me and considering my arguments.  I don't know why I care so much about this. I think part of it is that I get sick of seeing Rolex Subs and Daytonas posted in the High End Forum when I feel that generally this needs to be a space for exotic watches that have a greater hand made dimension.


----------



## KrisL

I'm partial to Moser. They strike a good balance between exclusivity, finishing and affordability.


----------



## Azizu

Ayreonaut said:


> 1990's Blancpain and other lesser known high end brands. I find that this is the era the materials started getting really solid, so that good examples still look almost brand new, not deteriorated like other older watches.


Agree with that, only challenge is that in early 90s size where around 34mm to 36mm so if you have a big wrist it could be a challenge.


----------



## Azizu

Consider the following prices for a high horology manufacturer
1- Annual Calendar 38mm steel case 11,000 CHF (14,000 CHF for 40mm)
2- Annual Calenday 38mm rosegold case 18,200 CHF (24,000 for 40mm)
3- Perpetual Calendar 40mm steel case 32,000 CHF
4- Perpetual Calendar rosegold case 40,500 

can you guess the manufacture?

Blancpain


----------



## pinchharmonic

gangrel said:


> None of them. The question is oxymoronic, IMO.


funny =)


----------



## CRW161

mhz > vph said:


> Chopard LUC 16/1860/2
> 
> A movement that surpasses the patek 240 wedded to a gorgeous solid gold dial by metalem, all for a price in the neighborhood of 10,000 USD


That is sublime. 
Luckily (for my bank balance) it's too small for me.


----------



## SISL

Tsujigiri said:


> Completely agree, I'm amazed that even the limited editions can be found at a discount when you consider how universally praised their watchmaking is and the fact that Chopard as a whole is actually a decent sized and recognizable brand. The LUC line is like the best of both worlds between a small high end brand and a large one. You get the worldwide support and corporate stability of a large brand, along with things like an in-house gold foundry that a smaller brand couldn't afford. But then you also get the exclusivity, attention to detail, and uniqueness of a small brand, since they only make about 4k-5k watches in the LUC line a year.
> 
> To add to this, they do have modern versions with a dial and movement that are just as nice as the original, but they are all limited editions. The one in the photo below is the model I picked, since I liked the more modern style, larger size, and hacking seconds. But I can see why people who like smaller watches would gravitate towards the original, which looks very similar to some versions of the Philippe Dufour Simplicity. As mhz said, the regularly available models now have a pared down version of the movement that doesn't feature the anglage or black polishing, and the dials don't have guilloche. The exception is the platinum case model, which is non-limited but has the Geneva Seal movement (it doesn't have the guilloche dial, though).


That's a gorgeous watch. I'm particularly taken by the off center guillochage.


----------



## dbostedo

jdelage said:


> That's a gorgeous watch. I'm particularly taken by the off center guillochage.


I'm not sure I've seen "guillochage" before, so it sent me looking... apparently:

guillochage = the process/craft
guillocheur = the person performing the process
guilloche = the result/material

Neat. I'd always just seen "guilloche". I've always kind of wanted to be a guillocheur.


----------



## WTSP

dbostedo said:


> I'm not sure I've seen "guillochage" before, so it sent me looking... apparently:
> 
> guillochage = the process/craft
> guillocheur = the person performing the process
> guilloche = the result/material
> 
> Neat. I'd always just seen "guilloche". I've always kind of wanted to be a guillocheur.


If you're lucky, you might meet some guillocheuses.


----------



## ar7iste

dbostedo said:


> I'm not sure I've seen "guillochage" before, so it sent me looking... apparently:
> 
> guillochage = the process/craft
> guillocheur = the person performing the process
> guilloche = the result/material
> 
> Neat. I'd always just seen "guilloche". I've always kind of wanted to be a guillocheur.


I think "guilloche" and "guilloché" are indeed english words for the result, and in french we call the result a "guillochis". "Guilloché" in french points out an object that has a "guillochis", that's probably why there is so much confusion for french-speaking swiss people when using this word. The other words (guillochage and guillocheur) are the same in french as what you said.


----------



## WTSP

Combien de guillochis est-ce qu’un guillocheur guillocherait si un guillocheur pouvait guillocher?

Or perhaps it should be:
Combien de guillochis un guillocheur guillocherait-il si ce guillocheur savait guillocher?


----------



## ar7iste

WTSP said:


> Combien de guillochis est-ce qu'un guillocheur guillocherait si un guillocheur pouvait guillocher?
> 
> Or perhaps it should be:
> Combien de guillochis un guillocheur guillocherait-il si ce guillocheur savait guillocher?


I didn't know you were french too!

Un guillocheur sachant guillocher guillocherait des guillochis par guillochage sur un cadran guilloché.


----------



## dbostedo

ar7iste said:


> Un guillocheur sachant guillocher guillocherait des guillochis par guillochage sur un cadran guilloché.


Oh yeah?

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.


----------



## WatchEater666

dbostedo said:


> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.


Mange tes frites espèce d'idiot


----------



## WTSP

ar7iste said:


> I didn't know you were french too!
> 
> Un guillocheur sachant guillocher guillocherait des guillochis par guillochage sur un cadran guilloché.


Yes, francophone, but not actually French unfortunately. I'm on Forumamontres as well but not as active as here.

Your text is well formulated of course, but I was trying to put a new spin on the old « how much wood could a woodchuck chuck ».

Having contributed to derailing this thread, I feel compelled to post something to get back on track. The Rebellion Twenty One three hand is only about USD $3k, though I suspect it's an ETA 2824 or equivalent. Their Twenty One GMT is said to be in-house, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was a modified 2893. It's about $5-6k. Not sure if I like the look of these pieces. They're visually interestingly but lack elegance. They're like a really expensive SevenFriday.

Timepieces Archives - Rebellion Shop

Really these are probably just mid tier pieces which I'm perceiving as potentially high end because of the halo effect of Rebellion's other pieces.


----------



## ar7iste

WTSP said:


> Yes, francophone, but not actually French unfortunately. I'm on Forumamontres as well but not as active as here.
> 
> Your text is well formulated of course, but I was trying to put a new spin on the old « how much wood could a woodchuck chuck ».
> 
> Having contributed to derailing this thread, I feel compelled to post something to get back on track. The Rebellion Twenty One three hand is only about USD $3k, though I suspect it's an ETA 2824 or equivalent. Their Twenty One GMT is said to be in-house, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was a modified 2893. It's about $5-6k. Not sure if I like the look of these pieces. They're visually interestingly but lack elegance. They're like a really expensive SevenFriday.
> 
> Timepieces Archives - Rebellion Shop
> 
> Really these are probably just mid tier pieces which I'm perceiving as potentially high end because of the halo effect of Rebellion's other pieces.


Haha and I was trying to put a new spin on the french "un chasseur sachant chasser sans son chien...". I guess I'd have to join a literature forum to get better at it though 

Back on the topic with Rebellion, they're actually very popular in France. The racing team was very influential in the motorsport scene and a lot of fans are wearing some of their gear, on top of that François Fillon (former presidential candidate) is an aficionado of the brand. But with the racing team stopping their activities now, I am not seeing a bright future for the brand.


----------



## mediasapiens

WatchEater666 said:


> What do you guys think? What brands, especially on the used market, do you think offer the most watch for the money?
> 
> IMO, used Glashutte Original is some of the best watch for the money on the used market.


Daniel Roth, Universal Geneve, Chopard, Girard Perregaux, Angelus, JLC


----------



## zztopops

mediasapiens said:


> Daniel Roth,


Alas me thinks this ship has sailed.


----------



## dbostedo

zztopops said:


> Alas me thinks this ship has sailed.


They're still a "brand, especially on the used market" ... granted, they're _only _on the used market.


----------



## zztopops

dbostedo said:


> They're still a "brand, especially on the used market" ... granted, they're _only _on the used market.


I meant from the perspective of best watch for the money. Prices have 🚀👨‍🚀🌘 lately

Oth Roger Dubuis of the approx same indy era has terrific values used... if you can get past the current design language.


----------



## Mediocre

zztopops said:


> Alas me thinks this ship has sailed.


As @dbostedo stated, they can be found used. Be aware of what you are buying though, because some (especially the ones that are more affordable) tend to be quite small by modern standards


----------



## ar7iste

I don't understand the market right now. I feel like the brands are trying to catch up but feel bad to charge extravagant amount of money for watches that cost 25% of the asking price to develop and manufacture. But because there seems to be people who are willing to splurge with specific "independent" older models, they are increasing the prices. And the bubble is in my opinion driven exclusively by the resellers who hype those models with social media and make people feel it is the next big thing, when serious collectors were already aware that the quality was great and were enjoying the softer prices.
Not to say that Daniel Roth, FP Journe or Roger Dubuis' watches aren't incredible, they are just not worth what people are paying for in terms of quality/cost of production.
I dare say that less consensual designs are where the bargains are, as was pointed out with other Roger Dubuis pieces, but also other independents like DeWitt and their out of time or endless drive, or Chronoswiss' tourbillon or quarter repeater.

Amazing watches in their own rights, done by independent watchmakers who have a vision and value transparence and cooperation with movement manufacturers, but make their own designs, their own cases and intricate dials themselves. There is more to horology than the in-house movement trend and Instagram pictures of beveled bridges. Their is a soul infused by a creative mind to give life to a mechanical object.


----------



## WatchEater666

_rushing off to google that Dewitt_


----------



## dbostedo

WatchEater666 said:


> _rushing off to google that Dewitt_


I did the same. It's awesome, as expected.


----------



## mediasapiens

Watch buying public is full of insane individuals who do things like this:
widely available 900 dollar watch just sold for $3000+ for no reason at all.
















Authentic Oris Big Crown 7741-31 Automatic Men's Brown - Aug 15, 2021 | Mynt Auctions in NY


This item qualifies for FREE DOMESTIC SHIPPING to customers in the USA Product information Target: Men's Material: St... on Aug 15, 2021




www.liveauctioneers.com


----------



## WTSP

Tim Mosso is on the record in his podcasts (I think the episode with Lung Lung) that he expects prices to remain fairly high so long as the pandemic continues to restrict peoples’ movements and options for entertainment. Once travel and other experiential spending opportunities fully reopen he expects a bit of a decline in watch pricing. I think he’s probably right.

Personally, I sold a Girard Perregaux and Ebel chrono over the past few months. Prices certainly didn’t double, but they did sell for amounts that were higher than I paid originally about three to five years ago. As others have pointed out, there are still many brands and models that have low selling prices. Outside the spotlight of mass hysteria brands and models in a lot of the watch industry is still limping along at pennies on the dollar in the used market (Arnold, Corum, GP, etc. ).


----------



## WTSP

In following with my new concern for non viable exotica in the world of watches, I wonder if many of the seemingly great deals in the high end segment are potentially the result of collectors shunning certain brands due to poor servicing and durability. I think there may be something at play similar to how Toyota group vehicles fare so well in the used market while Chrysler group brands loose significant value because the former has such great long term durability and quality while the latter tends to have more issues than other manufacturers.

I know that based on my experience with a Girard Perregaux watch, I won’t be owning another (unless I happen to move to a city with a local accredited GP service center). My absence from the market for GPs may have a tiny deflationary effect on pricing which cumulatively with other collectors may result in perceived value from a price standpoint, but low actual value from an ownership satisfaction perspective. I think it’s interesting how Rolex offers the opposite. Dealers like Delray Watches and Watchbox keep ranting how GP offers such great value. That may seem true in appearance putting two watches side by side, but as one can see when viewing a Toyota or Volvo crash test versus some off brand vehicle from a less established carmaker, just because two products look similar in general appearance outwardly doesn’t necessary translate to similar quality.

I wonder if Daniel Roth actually benefits from good servicing and support given that they are owned by Bvlgari which in turn offers servicing separate from the rest of LVMH.


----------



## GrouchoM

WTSP said:


> In following with my new concern for non viable exotica in the world of watches, I wonder if many of the seemingly great deals in the high end segment are potentially the result of collectors shunning certain brands due to poor servicing and durability. I think there may be something at play similar to how Toyota group vehicles fare so well in the used market while Chrysler group brands loose significant value because the former has such great long term durability and quality while the latter tends to have more issues than other manufacturers.
> 
> I know that based on my experience with a Girard Perregaux watch, I won't be owning another (unless I happen to move to a city with a local accredited GP service center). My absence from the market for GPs may have a tiny deflationary effect on pricing which cumulatively with other collectors may result in perceived value from a price standpoint, but low actual value from an ownership satisfaction perspective. I think it's interesting how Rolex offers the opposite. Dealers like Delray Watches and Watchbox keep ranting how GP offers such great value. That may seem true in appearance putting two watches side by side, but as one can see when viewing a Toyota or Volvo crash test versus some off brand vehicle from a less established carmaker, just because two products look similar in general appearance outwardly doesn't necessary translate to similar quality.
> 
> I wonder if Daniel Roth actually benefits from good servicing and support given that they are owned by Bvlgari which in turn offers servicing separate from the rest of LVMH.


Part of this is back to a comparison of durability and accuracy versus Haute Horologie. HH (ALS, PP, GP, Breguet, AP) seldom make claims to being overly accurate and durable, but the "lower tier" nicer tool watches by Rolex, Omega, Damasko, Sinn, etc. primarily focus on accuracy and durability but not fine movement finishing. 
Where is the justification for the pricier Ultra Luxury watches?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## WTSP

GrouchoM said:


> Part of this is back to a comparison of durability and accuracy versus Haute Horologie. HH (ALS, PP, GP, Breguet, AP) seldom make claims to being overly accurate and durable, but the "lower tier" nicer tool watches by Rolex, Omega, Damasko, Sinn, etc. primarily focus on accuracy and durability but not fine movement finishing.
> Where is the justification for the pricier Ultra Luxury watches?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


That's certainly true, but for the sake of expediency, let's just say that this is relative functionality, serviceability and durability compared to other high end watches. I'm sure I'm not wrong in saying that some are better than others and that may be reflected in aftermarket prices in a way that may give an illusion of value for certain brands that may turn out to be expensive headaches.


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## xiton

Hopefully not derailing but I think it’s in the spirit of the OP. I’m considering my options for an all occasions (suit, casual, etc) high end watch that I can find on the preowned market at a discount over retail, or at least looks to hover around in value around original MSRP. I like watches on the sporty side and less dressy but are wearable in most occasions.

Any thoughts on options to look at?


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## dbostedo

xiton said:


> ...watch that I can find on the preowned market at a discount over retail...


That's most watches other than the most popular sports models. Any price range you're looking for? And I assume you consider a bracelet to be required for all occasions?


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## xiton

dbostedo said:


> That's most watches other than the most popular sports models. Any price range you're looking for? And I assume you consider a bracelet to be required for all occasions?


I would like to spend under 15k. I'd of course prefer less expensive options but if I were to fall in love&#8230; I want a bracelet for sure.


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## dbostedo

xiton said:


> I would like to spend under 15k. I'd of course prefer less expensive options but if I were to fall in love&#8230; I want a bracelet for sure.


Girard Perregaux Laureato









Bvlgari Octo Finissimo


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## xiton

dbostedo said:


> Girard Perregaux Laureato
> View attachment 16065030
> 
> 
> Bvlgari Octo Finissimo
> View attachment 16065032


I find both of these beautiful. The Bvlgari just looks better in photos than it would on me, but I think the thinness is a marvel.

What other options would you suggest?


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## Age_of_Surfaces

Hello all,

In terms of bang for buck, I try to keep things simple by not chasing the market and not paying MSRP. I also try to remain centred - appreciating watches is free, possessing them is not, so I invest far more in the former than the latter.

Today I bought the watch below, unworn and full set at 50% of MSRP. It's a 18K white gold Audemars Piquet Jules Audemars self-winding chronograph. Now discontinued, it ran for about ten years. I've wanted a two-register chronograph w/Breguet numerals for a while, and it was one of 3-4 contenders.

Here is Tim Mosso's review of the watch from April this year. 




Best regards.

N.B. The photographs aren't mine.


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## usmc_k9_vet

Age_of_Surfaces said:


> Hello all,
> 
> In terms of bang for buck, I try to keep things simple by not chasing the market and not paying MSRP. I also try to remain centred - appreciating watches is free, possessing them is not, so I invest far more in the former than the latter.
> 
> Today I bought the watch below, unworn and full set at 50% of MSRP. It's a 18K white gold Audemars Piquet Jules Audemars self-winding chronograph. Now discontinued, it ran for about ten years. I've wanted a two-register chronograph w/Breguet numerals for a while, and it was one of 3-4 contenders.
> 
> Here is Tim Mosso's review of the watch from April this year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> N.B. The photographs aren't mine.
> View attachment 16075187
> View attachment 16075188
> View attachment 16075189
> View attachment 16075190
> View attachment 16075191
> View attachment 16075192
> View attachment 16075193


Well that is just absolutely stunning! Congrats!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Age_of_Surfaces

usmc_k9_vet said:


> Well that is just absolutely stunning! Congrats!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Much appreciated. I have no particular fascination in the so-called holy trinity but in my meanderings I've now managed to tick off two of them.


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## Robotaz

dbostedo said:


> Girard Perregaux Laureato
> View attachment 16065030
> 
> 
> Bvlgari Octo Finissimo
> View attachment 16065032


That GP is awesome!


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## WatchEater666

Age_of_Surfaces said:


> Today I bought the watch below, unworn and full set at 50% of MSRP


ha, was looking at this watch the other day. Congrats.


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## Age_of_Surfaces

WatchEater666 said:


> ha, was looking at this watch the other day. Congrats.


You too? I see a few on sales platforms that are on a plenty of watch lists.

I wrapped up my preferred option earlier today. All of this on the back of several months looking at variations on the theme: vintage Movado; the Omega Museum 10; and the Habring Shellman to name but three (the last of these three isn't normally available).

One thing I can't understand is the _very large variation _in asking prices for identical packages. Do you know why that might be?


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## WatchEater666

Age_of_Surfaces said:


> One thing I can't understand is the _very large variation _in asking prices for identical packages. Do you know why that might be?


Not sure.Was looking at that or a breguet.Like you, love the classic styling.


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## WTSP

Age_of_Surfaces said:


> One thing I can't understand is the _very large variation _in asking prices for identical packages. Do you know why that might be?


That could be a thread to itself! I think it reflects the various pricing approaches by dealers with varying levels of ability and success.

Here are some possible strategies:
MSRP
MSRP plus wishful hype factor
MSRP minus a percentage reflecting used nature of the watch
Acquisition price plus target margin
Acquisition price plus target margin plus sacrificeable negotiation room margin
Liquidation sale price below market average or at a loss to the dealer just to get the piece out

One could categorize brands or watch models depending on which bucket they most often sell in.


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## Age_of_Surfaces

WTSP said:


> That could be a thread to itself! I think it reflects the various pricing approaches by dealers with varying levels of ability and success.
> 
> Here are some possible strategies:
> MSRP
> MSRP plus wishful hype factor
> MSRP minus a percentage reflecting used nature of the watch
> Acquisition price plus target margin
> Acquisition price plus target margin plus sacrificeable negotiation room margin
> Liquidation sale price below market average or at a loss to the dealer just to get the piece out
> 
> One could categorize brands or watch models depending on which bucket they most often sell in.


Yes, I suppose it could.

This watch last sold for around $US45K MSRP. There are still merchants pegging the price at around US$38K. Others for around US$23K. As recently as 2017 it was fetching around US$15K at auction. Chrono24's price aggregator suggests a mean price of US$17K on the secondary market (assuming all these prices are for unworn/full set; i might be wrong). So it's all over the place.

Large merchants might offer watches like this at lower prices to keep inventory moving. Small merchants could set prices at higher levels because the marginal return on each sale matters more. So long as it's a discontinued watch for which there isn't much demand, prices will be... elastic. This is a better state of affairs than when prices just go relentlessly north powered by fumes, or an article on A Collected Man, or both.


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## Johann23

oso2276 said:


> This
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk


My G- shock, it's pretty rock 'n' roll for the money.


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## ar7iste

Age_of_Surfaces said:


> This is a better state of affairs than when prices just go relentlessly north powered by fumes, or an article on A Collected Man, or both.


This is so true and the one thing that really annoys me in the hobby. And people dictating what "good taste" is supposed to be.
This is a silly hobby anyway, just let people have fun and a Hublot tourbillon pavé diamonds or a Calatrava are equally fun and silly to me.


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## highendtime.com

Personally I’d go some models of Roger Dubuis (the earlier ones not the modern mini tires ) and also some early or mid Daniel Roth.

Moser is also one to watch. Pun very much intended.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bezelworld

highendtime.com said:


> Personally I’d go some models of Roger Dubuis (the earlier ones not the modern mini tires ) and also some early or mid Daniel Roth.
> 
> Moser is also one to watch. Pun very much intended.


I would have expected Roger Dubuis to be mentioned in this thread. I do wonder what servicing them is like, though. I keep trying to find a model that woos me since the prices are so insanely low for what you get, but their designs are just a little off to me somehow.


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## highendtime.com

Bezelworld said:


> I would have expected Roger Dubuis to be mentioned in this thread. I do wonder what servicing them is like, though. I keep trying to find a model that woos me since the prices are so insanely low for what you get, but their designs are just a little off to me somehow.


How about this one chief? These are the ones I am referring to. The earlier Dubuis.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SISL

highendtime.com said:


> These are the ones I am referring to. The earlier Dubuis.


What years are the "earlier Dubuis" for you?


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## ar7iste

jdelage said:


> What years are the "earlier Dubuis" for you?


I think he is referring to the pre-excalibur watches (before 2005). But to me that’s a very short life for the manufacture. The direction to move away from the sympathie line was made even clearer after Richemont came in 2008.
I however like a lot of models (not everything), even among some recent extravagant high tech designs. And I like the monégasque too. Just a completely different style.


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## highendtime.com

jdelage said:


> What years are the "earlier Dubuis" for you?


Pre-Richemont chief. The only one that speaks to me from the modern ones (like the gentleman above) is the La Monegasque; otherwise the design aesthetic has totally changed. It’s a different brand now thanks to Richemont 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dbostedo

highendtime.com said:


> chief?





highendtime.com said:


> chief.


Chief?


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## Bezelworld

dbostedo said:


> Chief?


He's not your chief, pal.


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## dbostedo

Bezelworld said:


> He's not your chief, pal.


I'm not your pal, buddy.


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## WTSP

He’s not your buddy, guy.


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## dbostedo

WTSP said:


> He’s not your buddy, guy.


And I'm not your guy, friend.


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## mchou8

If you're talking about resale value, then obviously Rolex, PP, and AP. If you're talking about undervalued brands that can be had at a significant discount (brand new or used) I would say Zenith and Breguet. I'm sure there are many more, but I picked these two because I've owned them.


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## En_Nissen

mchou8 said:


> If you're talking about resale value, then obviously Rolex, PP, and AP. If you're talking about undervalued brands that can be had at a significant discount (brand new or used) I would say Zenith and Breguet. I'm sure there are many more, but I picked these two because I've owned them.


Your answer almost makes me think we're talking about stocks...


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## AnonPi

highendtime.com said:


>


What a mess of a UI.


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## Bezelworld

AnonPi said:


> What a mess of a UI.


And this is exactly why Roger Dubuis is great bang for buck. I discovered the great value for money that was RD so I searched through many a model, trying to find something I was really into. But the reason their prices are so low is because their design is uh.. not great.

I still have it in my head that one day there will be some random vintage Easy Diver model I enjoy but somehow I doubt it. 😒


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## lorsban

$15k new

$10-12k used

Unmatched value


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## zztopops

lorsban said:


> Unmatched value


$149k new
$50-60k used


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## WTSP

This DeWitt Pressy Grande has an MSRP of $1,460,000 and is selling on Ashford for $285,000, that's an 80% discount and a savings of over a million. If THAT's not value I don't know what is. 










The Academy Out of Time model is also very nicely priced at $15k vs MSRP of $64k.


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## AnonPi

WTSP said:


> This DeWitt Pressy Grande has an MSRP of $1,460,000 and is selling on Ashford for $285,000,000


I'm assuming the Ashford price you mention is off by 3 orders of magnitude?


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## Contaygious

Freak x for 13k but I don't want to tell anyone before mine comes lol


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## WatchEater666

Contaygious said:


> Freak x for 13k but I don't want to tell anyone before mine comes lol


I still want one. They look great!


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## NardinNut

Contaygious said:


> Freak x for 13k but I don't want to tell anyone before mine comes lol


Where did you find one for 13k? Lately the lowest I’ve been seeing is 16k. I’ve been waiting to find the Carbonium version but all that’s popped up in recent months have been the gold or the titanium.


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## Contaygious

NardinNut said:


> Where did you find one for 13k? Lately the lowest I’ve been seeing is 16k. I’ve been waiting to find the Carbonium version but all that’s popped up in recent months have been the gold or the titanium.


You can talk dealers down. You should be able to get at least 15 from what I gathered asking around the ads. UN is so underrated lucky for us!


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