# ETA Precidrive and Powerdrive



## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

Hello everybody,
I was just surfing the ETA website and I came across this page:
New TechnologiesÂ ❘ ETA SA

I have 3 questions.

1) They say that "PreciDrive can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification, provided the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c. This precision can be achieved thanks to the thermo-compensation operating principle, which controls and regulates the motor pulses according to changes in the ambient temperature. By virtue of combining the quartz and integrated circuit in the same waterproof case, the precision is insensitive to moisture."

The table ot the calibers (reported in the same page) is the following:


Thermoline 251.474 PreciDrive
Thermoline 251.294 PreciDrive
Flatline 251.294 PowerDrive
Normflatline 251.474 PowerDrive
Fashionline G10.212 PowerDrive/PreciDrive
Fashionline G10.712 PowerDrive/PreciDrive
Flatline E61.101 PreciDrive
Flatline E61.111 PreciDrive
Flatline E61.501 PreciDrive
Flatline E61.511 PreciDrive
Flatline E63.101 PreciDrive
Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive
Flatline E63.501 PreciDrive
Flatline E63.511 PreciDrive
Flatline E64.101 PreciDrive
Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive
Flatline E64.501 PreciDrive
Flatline E64.511 PreciDrive
What sounds strange to me is that I knew only the Thermoline series was thermocompensated but now, according to this table, this is not true: can anybody help me ???

2) About the other technology (Powerdrive), honestly I didn't understand what is it. Is it meant to provide a (almost) continuous movement ? Or is it just used to move hands faster ? But, most of all, why they say "PowerDrive also provides numerous counter programming options. This technology gives the customer multiple display combinations." ? The following link (http://www.eta.ch/fileadmin/multimedia/ETACaliberInstructions.mp4) gives you a demonstration of the feature but I cannot see any special in that since I've seen these characteristics already before...

3) Last, I am opening this thread in the HAQ subforum since I would like to know if there is any perpetual calendar movement with high accuracy manufactured by ETA. I have researched for a while but I am too lazy to check for every caliber and, as far as I can see, the only perpetual caliber are in the Flatline series (Quartz watch movements - FlatlineÂ ❘ ETA SA) with analog & digital display. Is is true ?


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

dicioccio said:


> Hello everybody,
> I was just surfing the ETA website and I came across this page:
> New TechnologiesÂ.❘ ETA SA
> 
> ...


1) Yes it seems that PreciDrive can be found in a variety of movement families. It appears that some of these are very basic calibres and maybe PreciDrive is the future for all new ETA stuff, being possibly easier & cheaper to manufacture (that's just my guess). Strangely, they don't list the one PD movement that we've all heard of: the 251.264 chronograph used in the Certinas and a Chr.Ward.

2) PowerDrive is the technology that drives the hands, offering greater precision and resolution than the older methods (whatever they are). This is what enables some chronos to display 1/100 second timing, although that's nothing very new. The programmability I think allows the watch manufacturer to offer various complications without having to physically re-engineer the movement. It seems that PowerDrive is available with or without PreciDrive, but Preci- always has PowerDrive.

3) I don't know of any current TC perp.cal. movements from ETA, although the B79 Aerospace has an ETA-based movement with an annual calendar (doesn't understand leap years). The old 252.611 (Longines VHP PC) & 252.511/1680 (Omega Constellation PC) may have been the last (ever?). Get one while you still can.


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## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks Chris.

About the perpetual calendar, I was referring to this feature "in general", and not specifically coupled with TC. In fact I was just curious if ETA actually produces any perpetual calendar calibers different than the ana-digi... Do you know anything about that ?

About the VHP, while I am interested in the features, unfortunately all the VHP I've ever seen are not my taste because I dislike the dial, the hands, the case and the bracelet...


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## hughesyn (Oct 9, 2014)

In the video, PowerDrive allows the seconds hand to move a lot faster, so it resets similar (although not quite as good) to a mechanical chrono. This is a nice feature I think.

Looks like you are right about the demise of perpetual calendar eta movements. Seems like a real shame.


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## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

Hughesyn, what I don't understand is why this feature is so much forgotten. ETA paid a lot of attention for this "PowerDrive" functionality (which benefits honestly are a bit obscure to me) and did nothing to add a perpetual calendar. I mean, if the aim of ETA was to manufacture a caliber not very expensive, then why fit the PowerDrive feature in so many calibers ? Not to mention there are even chronograph ETA calibers with 27 jewels ! In other words, I don't understand why ETA seemed to care about high-end quartz movements but forgetting one of the most useful features such as a perpetual calendar.

What sounds so strange to me is that they already HAD such kind of calibers (for example the ones described by chris01 in his post) so why not simply "evolve" those "old" calibers ?


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

dicioccio said:


> Thanks Chris.
> 
> About the perpetual calendar, I was referring to this feature "in general", and not specifically coupled with TC. In fact I was just curious if ETA actually produces any perpetual calendar calibers different than the ana-digi... Do you know anything about that ?
> 
> About the VHP, while I am interested in the features, unfortunately all the VHP I've ever seen are not my taste because I dislike the dial, the hands, the case and the bracelet...


No, I'm not aware of any recent PerpCal models.

The VHP Conquest is rather 'visually challenging", I agree. For me the movement is sufficient "compensation". If you haven't seen one, try to find a (rare) Flagship VHP, which is a traditionally-styled body and bracelet. They came on a polished 5-segment bracelet or a leather strap. It's the right-hand one:


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

chris01 said:


> No, I'm not aware of any recent PerpCal models.


Correction: a search of the ETA site gave these two (plus a few with digital displays)

ETA Fashionline G15.562 BF PowerDriveÂ.❘ ETA SA

ETA Thermoline G15.562 BE PreciDriveÂ.❘ ETA SA


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## GlennO (Jan 3, 2010)

chris01 said:


> No, I'm not aware of any recent PerpCal models.
> 
> The VHP Conquest is rather 'visually challenging", I agree. For me the movement is sufficient "compensation". If you haven't seen one, try to find a (rare) Flagship VHP, which is a traditionally-styled body and bracelet. They came on a polished 5-segment bracelet or a leather strap. It's the right-hand one:
> 
> View attachment 4290994


I quite like these ones but I don't think I've ever spotted any for sale:


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

GlennO said:


> I quite like these ones but I don't think I've ever spotted any for sale:


Nice and simple. It looks as if they're identical to mine except for the dial. Even the hands are the same.

If I knew a good local watchmaker I'd get the hands changed. I don't really like the shape and they are a bit difficult to read against the white dial.


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## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

GlennO said:


> I quite like these ones but I don't think I've ever spotted any for sale:


This last model with a black dial is quite interesting but unfortunately has no lume..


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

dicioccio said:


> This last model with a black dial is quite interesting but unfortunately has no lume..


The Flagship range never had lume as far as I know. The Conquests had lume but it was feeble, even on a brand-new watch.


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## GlennO (Jan 3, 2010)

dicioccio said:


> The table ot the calibers (reported in the same page) is the following:
> 
> 
> Thermoline 251.474 PreciDrive
> ...


So in summary it seems that all of the Precidrives are indeed TC and potentially HAQ's, but that they can achieve COSC specs only if kept between 20 to 30 deg.C:

http://www.eta.ch/index.php?id=156&L=2

So the method of temperature compensation would seem to be quite inferior to that of Citizen's A010, for example, which will maintain +/- 5 secs/yr if kept between 5 to 40 deg.C, or Seiko's 9Fxx at +/- 10 secs/yr if kept between 5 to 35 deg.C for at least 8 hours per day.

So are we to consider these to be HAQ's for the purpose of this forum? If so, the Omega Aqua Terra would be a HAQ, for example, since I believe the Cal 4564 is the E64.111. This movement is also used in some more affordable watches from the likes of Certina, Tissot and Rado.

Also I can't find the F06.411 Precidrive on the ETA site. Does anyone know why it's not on the site?

Edit: Actually this statement from ETA raises a question for me:

*PreciDrive* can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification, provided the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c.

How can a movement be expected to pass certification consistently if it has to operate within that restricted temperature range to meet the standard? COSC certification requires testing outside that range.


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

I thnk on a 'site' basis we can accept pretty much anything that is factory spec'd to 20(ish) SPY or better, even it turns out to not be so very good after all. We get rather a lot of discussion, entertainment and education from a broadly inclusive approach. On an individual basis, however, we are each free to choose our own definitions and thresholds. ETA movements might not be as tightly spec'd as Citizen movements, and may come with more caveats, but timings by owners tend to suggest that the Swiss movements nevertheless perform very well, even when largely unworn or worn in all manner of daily and sporting situations.


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## GlennO (Jan 3, 2010)

Yes that's true regarding the ETA's that we are familiar with, but I currently have less faith in the new Precidrives listed above given ETA's seemingly nonsensical statement that they 'can' pass COSC certification, 'provided' that they are treated in a manner that is inconsistent with the test parameters (e.g. testing at 8 & 38 deg.C, shock testing etc).

Or am I missing something?


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

Hedging their bets, perhaps. Precidrive movements not only 'can' but 'have' passed COSC certification.


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## GlennO (Jan 3, 2010)

I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps not all of the growing number of Precidrives are equal. It would be interesting to note the models/calibres that have so far been certified.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

GlennO said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps not all of the growing number of Precidrives are equal. It would be interesting to note the models/calibres that have so far been certified.


The only Certina so far is the DS-2 Chrono LE. But there is no reason to believe that this one is intrinsically different from any other DS-2.

The Chr.Ward PDs are all COSC.

Since COSC specifies about 25 SPY, it all seems a bit irrelevant, as I doubt that any current TC watch would fail that test at any required temperature.


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## igna (Nov 6, 2014)

I asked in the all citizen HAQ movemnts: What do we have to consider as a HAQ?

We have cases where maker anounces HAQ performance and sells a watch its not (Precisionist) and in the opposite side another selling a HAQ movement and not bothering to write down in its manual (Certina / ETA Precidrive). So, the answer to the question is we have to study the movement, and if we have enough samples to conclude the movement is inside ± 20 or ± 25 SPY (without strange wearing conditions) then it can be considered HAQ.

I bet ETA 251.264 is well under the ±25 SPY so they are HAQ regardless if they stat in their manuals or not, if it has COSC certification or not. I think the ones sold with COSC certification are tested, just to be sure. And as said by Chris, seems irrelevant.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Our limit tends to be 20s/y.


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## GlennO (Jan 3, 2010)

The manual for the Precidrive chronographs state +/- 10 secs/yr. I don't know about the other calibres. The lack of info on the ETA site is frustrating, as well as the brand websites. For example this website says that the Certina DS-4 uses a Precidrive movement but there's no mention of it on Certina's page for the model.

Certina DS 4 Black (C0224101605000) » WatchBase.com


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## igna (Nov 6, 2014)

ronalddheld said:


> Our limit tends to be 20s/y.


Yes, agree 20 seems a reasonable limit. But the question is if you consider as HAQ a watch where the maker does not give any information about the movement.



GlennO said:


> The manual for the Precidrive chronographs state +/- 10 secs/yr. I don't know about the other calibres. The lack of info on the ETA site is frustrating, as well as the brand websites. For example this website says that the Certina DS-4 uses a Precidrive movement but there's no mention of it on Certina's page for the model.
> 
> Certina DS 4 Black (C0224101605000) » WatchBase.com


Thats what I mean.


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

To make matters worse, if you use the watch finder tool, it says the DS-4 Big Dial (C022.610....) is a PreciDrive...but WatchBase says not. They don't say PreciDrive, they don't say TC. The key selling point of their movement (in the Big Dial) is...size.

I actually like the DS 4 you referenced, quite a bit, and the price is attractive. Of course it's not available in the US, or at least not in 10-15 minutes of checking on the web. This would be more frustrating if I didn't have a strong disinclination to deal with Certina, because of their non-informative, and not exactly intuitive, web site. And, too, it doesn't help that I rather deeply distrust a brand that (at least here in the US) only has retailers in *expensive* store fronts. That says, their markup is likely astronomical; you're paying for the store front. No, I don't demand an online presence; that's a tough environment. But Certina wants to create an air of exclusivity, it seems, and it's not at all clear it's justified.

On the point about including a watch where the manufacturer gives you no info...I'd say no. I want clear disclosure. Heck, if it's COSC, awesome...say it! It's THEIR job to sell us the watch; it's not our job to do all the digging.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

gangrel said:


> To make matters worse, if you use the watch finder tool, it says the DS-4 Big Dial (C022.610....) is a PreciDrive...but WatchBase says not. They don't say PreciDrive, they don't say TC. The key selling point of their movement (in the Big Dial) is...size.
> 
> I actually like the DS 4 you referenced, quite a bit, and the price is attractive. Of course it's not available in the US, or at least not in 10-15 minutes of checking on the web. This would be more frustrating if I didn't have a strong disinclination to deal with Certina, because of their non-informative, and not exactly intuitive, web site. And, too, it doesn't help that I rather deeply distrust a brand that (at least here in the US) only has retailers in *expensive* store fronts. That says, their markup is likely astronomical; you're paying for the store front. No, I don't demand an online presence; that's a tough environment. But Certina wants to create an air of exclusivity, it seems, and it's not at all clear it's justified.
> 
> On the point about including a watch where the manufacturer gives you no info...I'd say no. I want clear disclosure. Heck, if it's COSC, awesome...say it! It's THEIR job to sell us the watch; it's not our job to do all the digging.


There is no evidence on the Certina web site that the DS-4 Big Size (C022.610) is a PreciDrive.

DS-4 Big Size | Certina

For each of their current PD models the relevant page shows a PD logo amongst the features and, more significantly, the dial is marked PRECIDRIVE.

Sorry. just realised that I repeated GlennO's point. However, it's quite important, I think. I wonder why they call it Big Size: the diameter is a fairly modest 40mm.


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## petethegeek (Apr 27, 2015)

chris01 said:


> I wonder why they call it Big Size: the diameter is a fairly modest 40mm.


Perhaps their marketing people - assuming that they actually have any - don't feel that 'Slightly Larger Diameter' manages to convey quite the right zeitgeist?


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

petethegeek said:


> Perhaps their marketing people - assuming that they actually have any - don't feel that 'Slightly Larger Diameter' manages to convey quite the right zeitgeist?


Seems about right for the Certina crowd. The plain old DS-4 is a tiny 37mm so maybe they have a point. :roll:


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

chris: the page for the DS-4 Big Dial doesn't show anything, no. The watch finder does; click on PreciDrive 3 hands, and it will show up towards the end of the list. I suspect it's just a bug in the search results, tho, at this point.

If "Big Dial" is intended to be a more positive statement, it backfires with me. I don't like big, oversize watches, so they give me the totally wrong impression.


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