# Sticky  Project 300: Dial and case design



## Yao

August 18, 2011: Size question and discussion.

Background information

The original size advertised was:

Diameter: 41.75-42.00 mm
Length (end of lug to lug): 47.50mm

These original specifications were based on some old measurements that I had taken from a military issue Seamaster 300 that I owned and sold long ago. The diameter I have listed above may have been based on a diagonal measurement of the case from 2 pm to 8 pm, which is my best guess as to explain the discrepancy with the figures listed below.

Based on a closer study the civilian Watchco SM300 that I bought as a reference for this project the SM300 watch measured the following:

Diameter: 40.40 mm
Length (end of lug to lug): 47.95 mm

The case I am using is one with an SLN insert and not a 60/70s case body, or at least not a 60/70s bezel, which featured tritium. As I reviewed this sample I felt that the watch should be closer to the 42.00 mm in diameter originally advertised in the pre-order. However based on the measurements of the sample watch this would mean that the watch should be increased in length to 50.00 mm to keep the proportions of the watch the same.

After feedback received from a number of forumers and customers we are here to revisit my decision. We have three sizes we can choose from:

*Size: A*
Diameter: 42.00 mm
Length (end of lug to lug): 49.50 - 50.00 mm

*Size: B*
Diameter: 41.75 mm
Length (end of lug to lug): 49.00 - 49.55 mm

*Size: C*
Diameter: 41.25 mm
Length (end of lug to lug): 48.50 - 48.95 mm

I will need a small amount of wiggle room on the length to get the proportions of the case just right.

First let me know what you guys think of the options. Assuming the options are "reasonable" I will put together two surveys. One for the Plankowners, which will be done in private, and one for everyone else interested in the project, which I will post on WUS. The one option that is off the table would be to keep the watch exactly the same as the original. The watch at the very least needs to be distinguishable from the original piece by size so as to prevent more fake military SM300s from showing up on the market.


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## Yao

Now open for discussion


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## MHe225

Blessed / cursed with a slim wrist, I would prefer the smaller size. The diameter of 42 mm is not so much the problem, but the 50 mm length is. 
Hence, my choice for *option C*:
Diameter: 41.25 mm
Length (end of lug to lug): 48.50 - 48.95 mm

RonB


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## Yao

MHe225 said:


> Blessed / cursed with a slim wrist, I would prefer the smaller size. The diameter of 42 mm is not so much the problem, but the 50 mm length is.
> Hence, my choice for *option C*:
> Diameter: 41.25 mm
> Length (end of lug to lug): 48.50 - 48.95 mm
> 
> RonB


Thanks for the input Ron. Please note that we are just determining whether the options for size currently cover the range options that people were considering.

I just wanted to make that clear so that we get your input on the survey I will be e-mailing to Plankowners later. That is where the votes will count for real.


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## MHe225

That's understood, Bill. The range of all 3 options is fine with me and very much in line with what I was expecting / hoping for. I should have said that explicitly, but I guess I was to eager to get my personal preference in :-x I will repeat the same once I receive the survey.

Looking forward to seeing this one take shape |>

Ron


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## chris7013

Bill,
Thank you for the update. I will wait for my survey. Guys take some time to think about how the watch is going to wear. The chunky modern divers have high lugs and tend to gap on my 6.75 wrists while my Seiko 6139 helmet melts right into it. I think this case will be in the middle. And while 50mm is a larger watch it should wear a bit smaller. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Chris


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## tmoris

I would still prefer an even smaller lug to lug length due to my 17.5cm wrist, but if there is no choice to create that option i would vote C.

btw: what is a SLN insert? google didnt help..


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## ljb187

A Speedmaster Pro is my biggest watch so size C would be most soothing. I'm having uneasy visions of the 300 ending up on the WUS sales forum because it's too big for my 6.75" (on a good day) wrist:


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## Thieuster

I know MKII has often been criticized for it lack of consumer communication. I think that this sticky shows the opposite. Name me one (other) watchmaker that will discuss the actual size of the watch-to-be with the customers before starting the working on the final design. Thanks Bill!

I think that all things said in other posting apply for me as well. I'll will wait for the plankowner's email from Bill.

(Nearly Friday afternoon overhere, so: have a great weekend!)

Menno


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## tmoris

Thieuster said:


> I know MKII has often been criticized for it lack of consumer communication. I think that this sticky shows the opposite. Name me one (other) watchmaker that will discuss the actual size of the watch-to-be with the customers before starting the working on the final design. Thanks Bill!
> 
> I think that all things said in other posting apply for me as well. I'll will wait for the plankowner's email from Bill.
> 
> (Nearly Friday afternoon overhere, so: have a great weekend!)
> 
> Menno


well, my belief is that if another watchmaker created a pre-paid watch, then all the specs would be approved beforehand, or he wouldnt get anyone to prepay. since the original specs changed considerably, I dont see this as an optional extra (setting up this sticky) but more as a must..


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## G-Junkie

Option C looks to be the most feasable to me. Still prefer a smaller lug-to-lug, though. I have a 6" wrist. on some days, it can even be sub-6 inches.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

Thanks Thieuster! Well Said!:rodekaart



Thieuster said:


> I know MKII has often been criticized for it lack of consumer communication. I think that this sticky shows the opposite. Name me one (other) watchmaker that will discuss the actual size of the watch-to-be with the customers before starting the working on the final design. Thanks Bill!
> 
> I think that all things said in other posting apply for me as well. I'll will wait for the plankowner's email from Bill.
> 
> (Nearly Friday afternoon overhere, so: have a great weekend!)
> 
> Menno


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## Yao

tmoris said:


> btw: what is a SLN insert? google didnt help..


SLN = SuperLumiNova (sorry for the abbreviation - I get tired of writing that long word so often)


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## Yao

ljb187 said:


> A Speedmaster Pro is my biggest watch so size C would be most soothing. I'm having uneasy visions of the 300 ending up on the WUS sales forum because it's too big for my 6.75" (on a good day) wrist:
> 
> View attachment 495701


The Project 300 will end up wearing even smaller because the dial will be substantially smaller than the Speedy. I have both watches here so I know what you mean. The reference 300 I have here has very similar measurements to the Speedy but wears much smaller.


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## ljb187

Yao said:


> SLN = SuperLumiNova (sorry for the abbreviation - I get tired of writing that long word so often)


If you prefer to spend your days fussing about with watches I suppose it'll have to do.


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## Kent108

To me, this is a good thing. Like earlier posters, I would prefer the size to be on the small side, to match my slender 6.5" wrists (thinner in cold weather). (I've also never liked the "big and chunky" aesthetic.)

Will look forward to the poll.



Yao said:


> The Project 300 will end up wearing even smaller because the dial will be substantially smaller than the Speedy. I have both watches here so I know what you mean. The reference 300 I have here has very similar measurements to the Speedy but wears much smaller.


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## ASRSPR

Ah, good; I guess we can probably assume that the project is going forward at this point, Bill?

Since this is also the Dial design thread, I've taken the opportunity to mock up a number of the popular name suggestions (as well as others that I perosnally like) from the other thread, with variations of typeface and dial elements. We can use these to help establish preferences like typeface style (script, sans serif, etc), size, and positioning, as well as logo design, marker style, and misc elements (e.g. Swiss Made).

For the base, I took a picture of my Precista PRS-14 and modified the elements where it diverges from the original (bezel lume pip, for instance) and replaced the dial with an original vector overlay to match the SM300 dial.

I used the Mk II wordmark from the website. The typeface for AUTOMATIC is a modified raster of Futura, which emulates closely the original Omega typeface (including flat-top As).

Here's crowd favorite "Pheon" in script, with circle-Y and big triangle. This and the 12-on-12 version below is my favorite.









And with 12-at-12









With Circle-L.








In a sans serif font instead








My suggestion: "Sublitoral".








In sans-serif.








"Trident"








"Project 300"








No-name.









So, my preference is for a script typeface for the name, with circle-Y symbol, and both big triangle and 12-at-12 dial options. The other elements closely emulate the original SM300's design, and I think we should retain those.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

Thanks for giving us something to look at and think about-Excellent Contribution!


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## ASRSPR

As for case size, I prefer Option C, which sound just about perfect.


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## Thieuster

I think that your mock ups (am I allowed to call them like that? - Is it the proper English term?) are fantastic! Imho, you're a wizzard! I agree with you on the 12-12 dial, with the 'Y' and I love the name in 'script' (Pheon being my favorite - for obvious reason).

Thank you!

Menno


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## kyoungren

Awesome mock ups! Thank you so much!

+1 on the Size C case.


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## Kent108

Thanks for the mockups!

I think I prefer the name in sans serif, UNLESS we go with Project 300 as the name -- in which case the script softens it a little bit.


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## Semuta

I agree with the Size C case, but I also have small wrists. 

As for the font, I prefer a cursive script like the original, but I'm not crazy on the font used in the mock-ups. I don't really like the look of the 'P'. Maybe it's just me.


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## ASRSPR

Ah, I'll have to try to put together some other script and sans-serif variations then. I think that the script that I'm using now is closer in style to the Breitling Superpocean Heritage dial script than the Seamaster one; nice, but a little different. I'll play around with it once I get my desktop unpacked. "Swiss Made" is, naturally, Helvetica.

Do people like the MkII logo with AUTOMATIC below? I think it's a pretty close approximation of the SM300.


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## enkidu

*Question for Bill*: Do you have an estimate of the dial size of the various case size options? Am I right in that the diameter of the case is the diameter of the outer most part of the bezel?

My EZM1 has a bezel diameter of 41.3mm and lug-tip-to-tip length of 47.5mm and wears pretty medium sized on my 7" wrist. Given the considerable width (depth?) of the bezel on the SM300, I think I might prefer it on the larger side, either 41.75mm or 42mm. Estimating the dial diameter from ASRSPR's mockups, I think it would be around 29.2mm for the A (42mm) option and around 28.5 for the (41.25mm) option. Even 29.2 is pretty small, I estimate the EZM is just around 29mm or so.

I really love the mockups ASRSPR, very, very well done! Just imagining this watch with a flat sapphire bezel has me quivering with anticipation!

I like MKII logo, not sure about the "automatic" beneath it; it might look cleaner with just MKII. I love the circle-Y and am somewhat ambivalent about the cursive font. Definitely not a fan of the san serif model name font combination or the circle-L. Pheon 300 looks pretty good as does Project 300. The "SWISS MADE" should be in Helvetica of course. I'm not interested in the 12-at-12 dial at all although I can see why people would be interested in one. I'd love to see different color options on the name. Having the name in red might be too similar to other watches, but perhaps a strong blue?

I'd like to see option B for the case size, perhaps even A. My main concern abou option C is that the dial might be too small.


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## MHe225

ASRSPR said:


> Here's crowd favorite "Pheon" in script, with circle-Y and big triangle.


It's funny how the Project 300 Watch Name thread works its way into this one, but then, as someone said before, they go hand in hand and can not be treated and considered independently.

I like this particular dial lay-out as is and the Pheon name is actually growing on me. I have to ask, though, does the broad-arrow reference still make sense or do we use it because it sounds cool? 
Personally, I would prefer to replace 300 by CCC and the name of the watch would be pronounced as_* Pheon tri Sea *_That's pretty cool in my book.

RonB


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## chris7013

I like the big triangle. I'm 50/50 on the script and leaning towards liking it. Any objections to splitting the swiss made so the 6 marker fully extends?


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## OmegaCosmicMan

Thanks for your insight-

I have to admit that the Pheon 300 is starting to gain some internal acceptance with me, although Project 300 remains my favorite name. When I first heard Pheon, I had a thought that if the watch ended up with that name, I'd probably drop out - But now I don't think so.

Pheon may apply though, because of the big triangle motif, which resembles the head of a broad arrow.


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## enkidu

Looking at the mockup again, I think the Circle-Y could be a bit smaller, perhaps 20% or 25%? The MKII logo could be a bit smaller also. I also like the idea of having some color in the text of the name, perhaps red, blue, or gold/golden-yellow. I believe the RN uses gold thread in their badging and it would be a subtle nod in their direction.


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## ASRSPR

I like the fully extended 6-marker! Also experimenting with a variation of the Pheon script without the closed left-side loop on the P.










Also, here's something slightly different: blunted big triangle to match the bezel lume pip. I don't know how I feel about this, actually. Gives it a slightly more modern look.


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## ASRSPR

enkidu said:


> Looking at the mockup again, I think the Circle-Y could be a bit smaller, perhaps 20% or 25%? The MKII logo could be a bit smaller also. I also like the idea of having some color in the text of the name, perhaps red, blue, or gold/golden-yellow. I believe the RN uses gold thread in their badging and it would be a subtle nod in their direction.


I'm not sure about smaller logos; I matched the size of the original Omega wordmark fairly closely and much smaller looks odd to my eyes. Circle-Y could be smaller, but that too feels kind of weird.


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## ASRSPR

enkidu said:


> Looking at the mockup again, I think the Circle-Y could be a bit smaller, perhaps 20% or 25%? The MKII logo could be a bit smaller also. I also like the idea of having some color in the text of the name, perhaps red, blue, or gold/golden-yellow. I believe the RN uses gold thread in their badging and it would be a subtle nod in their direction.


We could, uh, Kingstonfy it.










Not sure how Bill would feel about making another gilt dial. And I do think it kind of clashes with the spirit of the watch. Not that it's to say that there's not another way to add color to it that will work better.


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## ASRSPR

For instance, the most obvious ways to do this that I can think of:

Red second hand










Some combination of orange hands:



























I imagine that different hand sets would be the easiest variations for Bill to offer. Nonetheless, I'm not really convinced that any of these look viable.

My top choice is still my current "reference" design: White SM300 style hands, modified Pheon script, extended 6-marker, and original sized logo and circle-Y.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

No, Thank you.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

:-! The Red Second Hand gets it done-Excellent idea! |>


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## chris7013

The mock ups are a great way to see an idea. ASRSPR (you need an easier name to remember) I am a lone voice but I agree the smaller logo just doesn't work. It may just be because it's a rendering but the smaller size became a distraction. I like the idea of color to a point but when the yellow hands started popping up I was not impressed. Unfortunately I don't have any great ideas on where to add it, red tipped seconds? Not sure that would work here. What are the chances of an applied polished MKII logo? That might prove to be a pain in the ass. I don't know the answers but the hunt sure is fun. A fine red border around the lume pip?


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## tmoris

awesome job ASRSPR!! this is going to be very helpful when we will have to decide the final version!


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## Thieuster

It's great looking at these mockups. Personally, I think the first revamped drawing looks the best. Now, having said that, I remember a pic of this: fellow forum member Ploprof928 had this bezel installed on his Seafighter. Apart from the fact that it looks great (well, at least I think it looks great), it's important to know that this bezel comes from... an Omega Seamaster. Adding a hint of color can also be achived with a colored bezel, I think.

I hardly dare to ask... is it possible to come up with a mock up of this?

Menno


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## enkidu

Wow! Thanks so much for your hard work ASRSPR. 

I love the extended 6-marker also. The blunted triangle does look more modern, but I think to balance it we'd have to chamfer the corners of all the other indicators and then we end up way off track.

I actually like the logos smaller, as it makes them less assertive, but it could be that viewing them on my laptop screen changes my perspective. It isn't a huge point, however.

The color variations you tried don't work for me either.


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## ASRSPR

I realized that the orange-yellow color I used is probably not what most people think of when it comes to dive watches and the color orange. Here's a more Doxa orange version that looks a little better:










I know that the idea of creating a "vintage" look watch didn't sit too well with some, but I've always thought that the vintage style Bell and Ross watches looked really sharp. Here's an attempt to replicate that look (more khaki than the bright yellow you see on ebay fakes)










I actually really like how that looks.


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## Thieuster

Man, you are creative with Photoshop! Personally, I'm not fond of these coloured hands with this watch. The vintage look I do like, on the other hand. But if Bill's final design / the end result is more modern, I'm happy with it!

Thanks for your work!

Menno


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## MHe225

ASRSPR said:


> I know that the idea of creating a "vintage" look watch didn't sit too well with some, but I've always thought that the vintage style Bell and Ross watches looked really sharp. Here's an attempt to replicate that look (more khaki than the bright yellow you see on ebay fakes)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually really like how that looks.


I don't like posts that just read *+1* hence: *+225*

I really like this; I thought that the white was just a little too white in all your previous renderings; this one looks just fine, especially if you give it a read second-hand and go back to the "closed loop P). Thank you so much for the time and effort you're spending providing these mock-ups |>

RonB


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## chris7013

I'll go against the grain and say no to this look. I like a sympathetic restoration on a vintage piece, but this is brand new. I would prefer the dial to age on its own and not try to create a vintage look. We are already making a homage and I think adding a look of patina wont work. ASRSPR these renderings are still an outstanding way to see our ideas and I thank you for letting me see how the split swiss made and full 6 look. I like it.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

I'm with Chris on this one, the faux-aged or 'vintage' look doesn't get it for me. Red or red-tipped second hand is enough; perhaps it could be made an option as someone had suggested above, for those who would like it that way with the default being as Bill had hinted at. Also, I think the gilt or golden accents on hands or dial are just too much for this- I'm not interested in that either.

Thanks chris- good suggestions and thanks to aspr*** for mocking up these ideas-it is very helpful to have a picture, isn't it?

Good day to all- (Over and Out) :think:


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## ASRSPR

I'm not sure that it's so much faking the appearance of being old as being an, well, homage to the fact that it is a historical (and historic) design. But I figured that it might be contentious.

Here are some variations that I feel are more failed experiments:

Orange dial:










Vintage bezel-only:









Vintage dial-only:









Red tip second hand:








I think that the SM300 second hand tip is too stubby for this to be interesting.

Doxa-orange minute hand:








The SM300 hand shape makes this awkward.

"Sterile":








I know that there have been some advocates of the cleanest possible dial, so I've put the logo at 6 in Paradive style. To my eye, there's just a huge area that feels so empty. With how busy the original was, it feels utterly wrong to me - almost knockoff-like.


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## ASRSPR

Oh! How's this one? The solid gold Saddam Hussein Limited Edition:


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## ASRSPR

And now there are a few more radical color schemes that I think are *very* interesting - potential variation dials if Bill does multiple types like the Kingston. I suspect that these will probably prove controversial.

Omega blue dial:








Vintage blue sunburst:









I think that this project is an *absolutely fantastic* opportunity to use a colored bezel. With the sapphire overlay protecting it, it would never get scratched up like so many aluminum ones.

White dial:









White dial and bezel insert:









Presumably the white dial and bezel could be fully lumed, like the Helson Sharkmaster. Whatever people might feel about white dials (though the SMP GMT Great White _is_ quite popular), full lume dials are just AWESOME. Full lumed bezels look pretty amazing too.


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## ASRSPR

And we have the Full Kingston, with gold text as proposed earlier:









And the Red Triangle (with red tip second hand thrown in):









Interesting, but I feel like we shouldn't just be taking cues from the Kingston.


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## ASRSPR

MHe225 said:


> I don't like posts that just read *+1* hence: *+225*
> 
> I really like this; I thought that the white was just a little too white in all your previous renderings; this one looks just fine, especially if you give it a read second-hand and go back to the "closed loop P). Thank you so much for the time and effort you're spending providing these mock-ups |>
> 
> RonB


Again, not entirely sure about the red tip since it's kind of a short tip. I feel like we shouldn't change the geometry of the hand too much (for instance, into the proportions of the modern Planet Ocean). I've actually grown quite fond of the Pheon script with the open-loop P, but I wonder what others think about that.


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## Thieuster

My kids love the orange dial, but they're not paying for it... The vintage bezel with the white dial looks great. Closed or open 'P' both look good, however the open 'P' looks a little less 'heavy'.

Menno


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## chris7013

Well, again the rendering helps me see my idea isn't all that hot. I agree, the red tip is kinda ehhh and I'm not sure it's right. I do like the red around the lume pip. Sooo many decisions to think about. Bill if i can get this in 18k at the same price lets do it!!! :-! :think: 
Chris


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## ljb187

You might have something with the blue sunburst and the white dial/black bezel configurations. They might no be suitable for this project but a adding little color in MKII's collection might not be a bad thing. Either one of those on a mesh bracelet would be quite sporty!


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## G-Junkie

chris7013 said:


> Well, again the rendering helps me see my idea isn't all that hot. I agree, the red tip is kinda ehhh and I'm not sure it's right. I do like the red around the lume pip. Sooo many decisions to think about. Bill if i can get this in 18k at the same price lets do it!!! :-! :think:
> Chris


I never did like a red tip on any watch. There had been many times a blackwater popped up for sale. and many times there was some silly mod like the red tip or red date and those became instant deal breakers for me, no matter how small those mods were. I was ready to pay out full asking price until I saw those little variances. I would take a huge scratch on the case or glass in favor over a red tip/date on any given day.


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## enkidu

Springboarding off of ASRSPR's work (Thanks so much!), I mocked up my own variation. Modifications are red lettering for name, smaller logo, no automatic, smaller circle-Y.


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## chris7013

Throw the fine outline (minute marker fine) in red around the pip and we are on the way to a handsome watch. I don't know if it's the lack of automatic or the color on the name that makes the smaller logo and circle-y work but it does in this case very well. What I think is funny is the names we keep seeing on the dial. Pheon is the common theme and isn't half bad. I'd still like to see my name in lights. Anyone have the time to make an "Argo 300" just so I can see it? Thanks for the work guys I really helps guys like me see the potential. 

A side note, is the sapphire bezel insert going to be flat or slightly domed?


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## enkidu

Hey Chris, I believe the insert is going to be flat. Here's Argo but in a crappy font. Sorry about that, I only have stock fonts on my machine as I don't ever do graphics stuff; Java, Python, C++, etc. don't have much call for font variation.

Change log: 75% MKII logo, 75% Automatic, 75% Circle-Y. Argo 300 name in Brush Script MT with zero's as a smaller size.


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## chris7013

Thanks enkidu. Probably the only time I'll see it on the watch. Bill you feel like printing me a custom one off? Only thing I'd like to see is some other plank owners chiming in on what they think. Bill, any input on what will and wont work?
Thanks all,
Chris


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## enkidu

One more, With a red Project 300, and red outline on bezel triangle. Also includes the above reduced MKII logo, no AUTOMATIC, reduced Circle-Y.







And just for fun, a mockup with the crown in the right, err, destro position: destro, red Pheon 300, reduced logo, reduce circle Y, red bezel triangle outline, no automatic.


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## enkidu

Just realized that the logo and circle-Y on the mockups above are the 75% version and not the 80% version. Here's a mockup with the 80% version's of the MkII logo and Circle-Y. I think this has a really good balance.


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## Thieuster

Mmm, I'm not a fan of these red accents: looks like a modded Seiko to me... Nothing wrong with modded Seikos, but not on this watch!

Menno


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## tmoris

lately, i've been fighting my other me. it thinks that my seamaster 2254.50 is too lookalike to project 300 and doesnt endorse having two pieces of the "same" style.

my first me is not sure if the other me is correct or not.. thoughts..?


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## Thieuster

Correct me if I'm wrong: I was (am) under the impression that there are several different 2254.50 shapes around. So it's a little hard for me to picturize your statement.

Second, I don't mind having a MKII interpretation of an iconic watch. Look at it this way: would you go swimming with your Seamaster 300? I think most of us wouldn't think about it. I wouldn't hesitate for a second when wearing Bill's watch.

Third: if you had followed your 'other halfs' ideas, I would never have bought a Tornek Rayville next to my Stingray. And I'm very glad I own them both.

And finally: look here: TZ-UK • View topic - A hundred and five fathoms... The guy owns a Seiko 'fifty five fathoms' and has now bought a real Blancpain too! And looking at the cheaper watch, one can only admire the craftmanship when you compare it with the 'real deal'.

Keep on board! You'll regret getting off the train!

Menno


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## tmoris

1- i dont think there are several versions of 2254.50. there are several versions of seamaster from that era but they each have their own numbering, depending on whether they are gmt, quartz, etc.
2- yes, i swim with my 2254.50. or you mean a vintage sm300? well, with that one i probably wouldnt, but thats not really to the point. my trouble is that the other me thinks there is perhaps too little of a difference between 2254.50 and Project300..
3- cant dispute that one 
4- cant dispute that one either


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## enkidu

Thieuster said:


> Mmm, I'm not a fan of these red accents: looks like a modded Seiko to me... Nothing wrong with modded Seikos, but not on this watch!


Yeah; I like the red-lettering on my EZM1, but the red lettering makes the design less faithful to the original and perhaps too blingy. Anybody want to see a specific color? I'm going to try blue tonight.


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## chris7013

Blue can look very nice if its bright enough. To dark and it disappears into the dial. Some of the guys have pointed out they would prefer it not be so close to the original anyway, a little bit of color might be the ticket.


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## ljb187

chris7013 said:


> Blue can look very nice if its bright enough. To dark and it disappears into the dial. Some of the guys have pointed out they would prefer it not be so close to the original anyway, a little bit of color might be the ticket.


Depending how it turns out I wouldn't necessarily be against a little color (heck, I'm the one who liked the blue mock-up). Having said that, I'd be amazed if this watch was anything other than black and white.


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## Thieuster

enkidu said:


> Yeah; I like the red-lettering on my EZM1, but the red lettering makes the design less faithful to the original and perhaps too blingy. Anybody want to see a specific color? I'm going to try blue tonight.


I hadn't considered the EZM! I own a EZM2 and the red lettering 'disappears' in the dark, leaving only the essentials: markers and hands. The Sinn's red lettering is less bright, it's closer to the black color of the dial.
A few postings above, I showed a pic of a Seafighter with an Omega bezel. You 'translated' that pic into a mockup with a vintage bezel. Now, I looks as if the bezel on the Seafighter is blue-ish grey/blue. Perhaps you can incorporate this into your next mockup?

Menno


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design **Date Window Position?***

:think: Not to distract from the excellent discussion here, but here is another element of the design that may need discussion or resolution. I know that some of us will want a date window and some will not. If I may - Is this open for discussion? If so, I would like to request or suggest that a 4:30 position date window be used in conjunction with a black date wheel. I would hate for a date window to mess up or change the classic appearance of the dial...What do you all think? :think: And *Thanks *for all the great ideas.


----------



## enkidu

OK. Three more test images.

First one has the slightly reduced logo and Circle-Y and darker red on the name.
Second one is ljb187's request for a bit of blue. The blue is taken from the vintage blue bezel's color but lightened very slightly.
Third one is per Thieuster's request, blue bezel + vintage bezel. I tried to mimic the vintage style of Thieuster's example.



















I think the middle one works really really well. Also darkening the red makes it look much better also. Note, images are 20% smaller than before cause I got tired of scrolling up and down this thread.


----------



## Thieuster

Great looking mockups. The red on the first one is much more EZM-ish. The second (blue) is nice, but as an owner of Bill's Tornek Rayville, I know that the blue is hardly visible when wearing the watch. And yes, I do like the third one: the one with the blue-ish bezel! 

Menno


----------



## Semuta

Call me a traditionalist, but I would rather the watch resemble the original as closely as possible. This would include having the date window at the 3 o'clock position, as with the civilian SM300's. If there were to be an option for a blue dial/bezel, that would be cool too, but I'd rather go with black/black.


----------



## enkidu

I think the "original original" SM300 big triangle model was no-date (model 165.024). The date model (166.024) with no '3' and rounded-corner date window outline was available at around the same time, but the model number comes after the big triangle no-date SM300. Personally, I think the date option looks unbalanced. The blue dial/bezel is cool, but I don't see this as being anything but black-black. I do think the dark-red or dark blue accent on the dial is cool.


----------



## tmoris

to answer myself, google has come up with a nice picture of the two
now i only have to reach a decision..


----------



## Thieuster

The ones on the pic are truely brothers. Not twins! There's no doubt that Bill's Project 300 will complement your collection!

Menno


----------



## enkidu

More like cousins to my eye; and kissing cousins at that. The 2254 looks obviously much more modern (the hacky helium valve mars the sleek lines of the case for me). The SM300 has a much more vintage look with the 369 dial and old school bezel markings. I could see having both (and if things turn out right, I will have something close to both since I will eventually get my Great White back from the shop).


----------



## chris7013

Been away for a short bit. Bill, any input for the discussion or ideas on the progress?


----------



## tmoris

Bill, there has not really been discussion on the other options, mainly: 
- shouldnt we dump the spare case and bracelet and thus lower the project price? 
- how do people feel about cutting down on the other spare parts and lowering the price?
- will there be a spare SLN bezel insert - which is usually the part people scratch the most often?
- shouldnt we go for a mesh bracelet instead of the current one?

im sure others can come up with even more questions that might be good to discuss..


----------



## ljb187

tmoris said:


> Bill, there has not really been discussion on the other options, mainly:
> - shouldnt we dump the spare case and bracelet and thus lower the project price?
> - how do people feel about cutting down on the other spare parts and lowering the price?
> - will there be a spare SLN bezel insert - which is usually the part people scratch the most often?
> - shouldnt we go for a mesh bracelet instead of the current one?
> 
> im sure others can come up with even more questions that might be good to discuss..


I kinda like that mesh suggestion...


----------



## ASRSPR

tmoris said:


> Bill, there has not really been discussion on the other options, mainly:
> - shouldnt we dump the spare case and bracelet and thus lower the project price?
> - how do people feel about cutting down on the other spare parts and lowering the price?
> - will there be a spare SLN bezel insert - which is usually the part people scratch the most often?
> - shouldnt we go for a mesh bracelet instead of the current one?
> 
> im sure others can come up with even more questions that might be good to discuss..


There's a sapphire inlay over the bezel; scratches probably aren't a big concern. I like mesh bracelets, but I suspect that it's going to be a less universally popular choice.

I would like multiple dial options with spares in the parts kit.


----------



## chris7013

Well, Changing the price point and talking ourselves out of plank owner options doesn't sound like the best route. I admit, I have no idea if this project will have any of the above and beyond extras of the Kingston run but I hope it does. I'm still going to wait for Bill to weigh in on the discussion we have provided and see where it leads. 
Chris


----------



## Kent108

I've never tried a mesh bracelet simply because most are not able to accommodate my small (6.5") wrist without my doing some modification work myself. I know at least a few others who have signed up for this project also have similarly sized wrists, so they'd face the same problem.

I'd be open to giving mesh bracelets a try if they could be made to easily adjust to smaller wrists with minimal effort. Otherwise, I'd prefer something a little more classic.



ASRSPR said:


> There's a sapphire inlay over the bezel; scratches probably aren't a big concern. I like mesh bracelets, but I suspect that it's going to be a less universally popular choice.
> 
> I would like multiple dial options with spares in the parts kit.


----------



## ljb187

Kent108 said:


> I've never tried a mesh bracelet simply because most are not able to accommodate my small (6.5") wrist without my doing some modification work myself. I know at least a few others who have signed up for this project also have similarly sized wrists, so they'd face the same problem.
> 
> I'd be open to giving mesh bracelets a try if they could be made to easily adjust to smaller wrists with minimal effort. Otherwise, I'd prefer something a little more classic.


Staib makes mesh bracelets for smaller wrists. I'm no better than 6.75" and it fit me without issue. Not cheap though...


----------



## ASRSPR

The difficulty of adjustment may be a problem with mesh; the Omega belt buckle design might be the best bet. I recently had to dremel through some links on my Hong Kong "shark mesh" bracelet and that was a huge paint.

I also actually have a Staib mesh as well. The link density is very high, so it doesn't actually look like the Omega mesh or similar meshes... it's almost like a single flexible, but solid mass. The result is much dressier, especially with the clean ends and the solid links on the deployant end (as well as the double-fold deployant itself). It's not as good of a fit for sporty watches like the SM300 or Speedmaster as the Omega style ones.


----------



## chris7013

Any update on the survey going out? Bill have you had any time to look through the posts here, what input do you have?
Chris


----------



## Yao

I finally cleared a portion of my schedule and have the Kingston/watch delivery situation under control. I am preparing the size survey for distribution this week.


----------



## Yao

I should note at this point that there will be two surveys but asking the exact same questions. The first survey will go out to the current plankowners whose replies will be weighted more heavily. The second survey with the same questions will be posted here to get feedback from potential customers as well.


----------



## Yao

Ok please tell me if I am mistaken but it looks like everyone is ok with the size options. 

After scanning over the tread it looks like it really took off in a pleasantly unexpected direction. I really liked some of the mockups, even the gilt but probably not for this go around.


----------



## ASRSPR

I guess the Solid Gold P300 is out of the question too? Too bad, I guess. ;-)


----------



## tmoris

Yao said:


> Ok please tell me if I am mistaken but it looks like everyone is ok with the size options.
> 
> After scanning over the tread it looks like it really took off in a pleasantly unexpected direction. I really liked some of the mockups, even the gilt but probably not for this go around.


my understanding from the thread was that a smaller lug to lug length would be preferred..

could someone confirm if a 17.5cm wrist has the 50mm lugs "hanging over"?


----------



## enkidu

tmoris said:


> my understanding from the thread was that a smaller lug to lug length would be preferred..
> 
> could someone confirm if a 17.5cm wrist has the 50mm lugs "hanging over"?


I'm a flattish 17.8 cm or so. I'll post some shots tonight.


----------



## Semuta

I'm pretty sure Bill is referring to the 3 size options from the first post in this thread. I would assume that the survey will contain those options.


----------



## enkidu

tmoris said:


> my understanding from the thread was that a smaller lug to lug length would be preferred..
> 
> could someone confirm if a 17.5cm wrist has the 50mm lugs "hanging over"?





enkidu said:


> I'm a flattish 17.8 cm or so. I'll post some shots tonight.


Sorry it took so long. Had to catch up with other stuff last night. Here are some watch on wrist comparisons. Sorry for the crappy picture quality, I don't really have the time to do any set up, I just pulled out my watches and took some pictures at the dining table. I also apologize for any viewing confusion caused by the lefty crowns; I prefer destro watches.

My left wrist's circumference is 175mm on the hand side of the wrist bone and around 170mm around the bone (!). Wrist width is around 63mm and the height is around 40mm. Due to the softness of flesh, these measurements are probably only accurate to within 2-4mm. Obviously 175mm (17.5cm or 6 7/8 inches) wrist shapes will vary but these may help someone with flattish and smallish wrists like mine.

Sinn EZM1: length 47.7 height 16.2 bezel dia. 41.3 case dia. 40.0 width 44.7
This is my current daily wear. Very tall case, but Ti lightness makes it wear very comfortably. Awesome on rubber.














Omega Seamster GMT Great White: length 47.3 height 13.9 bezel dia. 41.0 case dia. 41.3 width 45.3
My alternate daily wear. Heavier steel case, feels slimmer than the EZM1 due to the rounded edges and lug profile. Very comfortable.














Kobold Soarway: length 50.8 height 10.3 41.4 case dia. 40.0 width 45.9
Haven't worn it more than a few hours so can't comment on the comfort. Waiting to convert to destro+blue dial. This watch's lug length is closest to 50mm.







__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









MKII Blackwater: length 47.7 height 13.5 bezel dia. 39.4 case dia. 41.8 width 43.5
Super slim light watch. Very comfortable to wear. It wears slimmer than the 13.5 height because of the rounded profile. I'm actually thinking about giving it a "melt job" to get rid of all the edges and make it like a bead-blasted pebble. 














Hope that gives some people a reference for the different watch sizes we're discussing. With proper weight distribution, I feel that a Project 300 with 50mm length could be comfortable for me, but given my druthers, I'd probably take a slightly smaller (and thus lighter) case.

Note: on measurement methodology: All measurements in mm. Wrist circumference measurements were done with a tape measure. All others with plastic (no scratch(tm)) calipers. Should be good to within 0.2mm though. Length is lug tip-to-lug tip. Case diameters were taken 4 o'clock-10 o'clock except for the Seiko (2 to 8). Width was taken crown tip to edge of case at same height as crown.


----------



## tmoris

Thank you for a very good report on this! That from my POV shows that a smaller lug to lug length would be a good idea for us in the under 18cm category.. wonder if thats the majority of people or not, though..


----------



## G-Junkie

I definitely want a smaller lug-to-lug. I have a very pencil-ish 6 inch wrist (15.24cm)


----------



## enkidu

tmoris said:


> Thank you for a very good report on this! That from my POV shows that a smaller lug to lug length would be a good idea for us in the under 18cm category.. wonder if thats the majority of people or not, though..


You're welcome! Glad to give back to the community from which I've gained so much.


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## Yao

Lfmao!


----------



## Yao

G-Junkie said:


> I definitely want a smaller lug-to-lug. I have a very pencil-ish 6 inch wrist (15.24cm)


I have the same sized wrist although that hasn't stopped from wearing pretty much anything in the size range proposed.


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## Yao

I am working on the survey today. I am trying to fill in some more questions that are sure to come up as the design process continues such as the date versus non-date issue and the "Big-triangle" versus "12 at 12 o'clock" question. 

Thanks for your patience.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Hello Bill, and Thanks- 

:-sCan I plug the 'Big-Triangle, black-date-wheel and date-at-4:30' version now? 

Take Care; Thanks again. |>


----------



## enkidu

As long as there is a "big triangle 3 6 9 and no date" option I'm good. If all the options are date, I'd probably drop out, as you can't do destro with out a lot more pain.


----------



## bob m

to the poster above me :

no date BIG TRI 3 6 9 is my config -dont steal my idear:-d


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## Yao

enkidu said:


> As long as there is a "big triangle 3 6 9 and no date" option I'm good. If all the options are date, I'd probably drop out, as you can't do destro with out a lot more pain.


In my view there should be one non-date and one date version. What those specific versions look like is up to the Planks.


----------



## ljb187

Well, this is my favorite version (hopefully on mesh):


----------



## MHe225

ljb187 said:


> Well, this is my favorite version (hopefully on mesh):
> 
> View attachment 543135


*LJB* for President ;-)

That's about my favorite look as well and a mesh instead of a bracelet would be über-cool. My '00 Speedmaster has never been on its bracelet - croc for most of the time and on an original Omega mesh for the last year and a half |>

Maybe we can start a rumor ._..... word has it that Bill will be offering the Project 300 watch on a mesh?? ......_ :-d

RonB


----------



## Semuta

Big triangle (how could you truly prefer otherwise?), black date wheel with white letters, white border around date window at 3 o'clock position. Or, barring that, no date.


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## tmoris

i do hope that the questionnaire will have the mesh as an option to vote for..


----------



## Yao

tmoris said:


> i do hope that the questionnaire will have the mesh as an option to vote for..


Unfortunately there will not be a mesh option because there are suitable substitutes available on the secondary market. Plus the only one that I like is the original Omega mesh, which isn't available from a reputable source that I am aware of. I am going to focus on making a solid-end piece bracelet because once the case is done its not something that only I can provide. Does that make sense?


----------



## Yao

The two surveys are ready. I will see about sending out the Plankowner survey via e-mail tomorrow and posting the survey link for everyone else here tomorrow.


----------



## ljb187

Yao said:


> Unfortunately there will not be a mesh option because there are suitable substitutes available on the secondary market. Plus the only one that I like is the original Omega mesh, which isn't available from a reputable source that I am aware of. I am going to focus on making a solid-end piece bracelet because once the case is done its not something that only I can provide. Does that make sense?


An OEM Mesh bracelet would have been nice, but it's small beer compared to size for most I imagine.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Thanks Bill- Waiting for the email. :-!


----------



## bob m

yes! soon ...I figure 18 months from now tops? ;-) Looking fwd to the process


----------



## Yao

Sorry for the delay. We need to review the e-mail list one last time before sending out the survey and we didn't get to it today. The survey will go out tomorrow.


----------



## Yao

*The survey link has been sent out to the Plankowners via e-mail. For those of you with a deposit on file already please take the survey linked through this e-mail. 
*
If you are a current Plankowner *do not take* the survey that is linked below. The survey link below is for everyone else interested in the project and *not* for the Plankowners.

Project 300: Size Survey (General - i.e. non-Plankowners)

If anyone has any questions please post them here.


----------



## ljb187

Just completed the survey. I wish everybody - big and small wristers - the best of luck!


----------



## MHe225

Now I know why I couldn't sleep - got out of bed, turned on the computer and voila, Bill's long awaited e-mail and survey ;-)
Here's to another one completed |>

Choose wisely, all - don't mess up a great design ;-) / :-d

RonB


----------



## chris7013

Surrrrrvey Says!!


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## bob m

i got a 7.25" and wear the lrrp fine but I know a few of you want a smaller watch than the lrrp-i voted I could live with all three sizes bill is offering


----------



## kmangino47

All 3 for me, but smaller would be better. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tmoris

i am clearly unaware of some clear fact, which explains why on this particular watch its impossible to have a 42mm diameter and ~47-48mm lug to lug legth (just like its on my omega smp 2254.50). what is that reason?


----------



## G-Junkie

tmoris said:


> i am clearly unaware of some clear fact, which explains why on this particular watch its impossible to have a 42mm diameter and ~47-48mm lug to lug legth (just like its on my omega smp 2254.50). what is that reason?


i think there might be fear that the proportions would be weird with those dimensions


----------



## enkidu

tmoris said:


> i am clearly unaware of some clear fact, which explains why on this particular watch its impossible to have a 42mm diameter and ~47-48mm lug to lug legth (just like its on my omega smp 2254.50). what is that reason?


I believe that Bill is trying to be as true to the original SM300 case as possible and the dimensions being discussed follow the ratios of the original case (without being identical to prevent counterfeits being made with the project 300 case). Perhaps someone with an original could take some measurements.


----------



## Yao

tmoris said:


> i am clearly unaware of some clear fact, which explains why on this particular watch its impossible to have a 42mm diameter and ~47-48mm lug to lug legth (just like its on my omega smp 2254.50). what is that reason?


The original watch (based on the measurements from a NOS SM 300 I have here) are as noted in my initial post:

Diameter: 40.40 mm
Length (end of lug to lug): 47.95 mm

If we stray too much from this ratio of length versus diameter the watch will no longer be what I believe you guys want the watch to be. That being said the length of the original is a bit on the long side but not so long you could increase the diameter 5% and keep the length the same without making a very strange version of the SM300. The SMP you note is just too different from a design perspective to use as a guide for the Project 300.


----------



## Thieuster

I took out my venier caliper and sized up some of my watches. In no particular order:

Watch - Width (in mm, without the crown) - Length (lug tip to lug tip)

1. Kingston - 38.70 - 47.70
2. Vantage - 38.80 - 47.95
3. Stingray - 42.27 - 49.22
4. Speedy - 41.47 - 47.36
5. Seafighter - 42.70 - 49.00
6. Seiko 6105-8000 - 41.11 - 48.04
7 Seiko 6309-7049 - 43.45 - 45.30
8 LRRP - 41.78 - 49.00

Just for your information.

Menno


----------



## rmasso

Thieuster said:


> I took out my venier caliper and sized up some of my watches. In no particular order:
> 
> Watch - Width (in mm, without the crown) - Length (lug tip to lug tip)
> 
> 1. Kingston - 38.70 - 47.70
> 2. Vantage - 38.80 - 47.95
> 3. Stingray - 42.27 - 49.22
> 4. Speedy - 41.47 - 47.36
> 5. Seafighter - 42.70 - 49.00
> 6. Seiko 6105-8000 - 41.11 - 48.04
> 7 Seiko 6309-7049 - 43.45 - 45.30
> 8 LRRP - 41.78 - 49.00
> 
> Just for your information.
> 
> Menno


I thought the Kingston was 39.3mm diameter, is that the case included or at the bezel?
Rich


----------



## Thieuster

> I thought the Kingston was 39.3mm diameter, is that the case included or at the bezel?
> Rich


At the case.

Menno


----------



## stew77

I agree with Bill's comments above regarding the proportions, which are truly different than the more modern 2254.50 Seamaster (which btw, I also like very much!).

I ran across this post here at WUS from username 'Flashharry' so all credit goes to him for the comparison pics that I have copied here for reference. Truly the best comparison shots I've seen with the Vintage Omega Seamaster 300 and the more modern 2254.50 Seamaster Pro. (Thanks Flashharry, who also states that his wrist size is 7.5").

Post link:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/old-new-seamaster-300s-side-side-368746.html


----------



## Yao

stew77 said:


> I agree with Bill's comments above regarding the proportions, which are truly different than the more modern 2254.50 Seamaster (which btw, I also like very much!).
> 
> I ran across this post here at WUS from username 'Flashharry' so all credit goes to him for the comparison pics that I have copied here for reference. Truly the best comparison shots I've seen with the Vintage Omega Seamaster 300 and the more modern 2254.50 Seamaster Pro. (Thanks Flashharry, who also states that his wrist size is 7.5").
> 
> Post link:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/old-new-seamaster-300s-side-side-368746.html


If you have to pin-point one reason that you can't transfer the dimensions from the old to the new it is the dial/case opening. The proportion of that opening to the diameter and the length of the watch also has to be preserved or at least kept within reason. Once that changes too much the watch probably won't be what you guys are looking for any more.


----------



## Yao

By the way the survey responses are coming in nicely. We have the majority of the Plankowners (but not all.....so if you haven't taken the survey please do so as soon as you can) and a good number of responses from the "general" survey so keep 'em coming. I will keep the survey open through Sunday the 6th at the least. At that time I will see what the response rate is and see if we have enough responses to close the surveys and start working through the results.


----------



## Yao

The survey's will be closed this weekend. Let's say midnight on Friday. I will have time to dice the information over weekend.


----------



## Yao

Just an FYI we are still experimenting with a flat sapphire bezel insert with some back-up suppliers in case the primary supplier on the Project 300 drops the ball. There's nothing to indicate that the primary supplier can't do the job, quite the contrary, but I prefer to build redundancies into the supply chain.


----------



## bob m

will a bit of lume (triangle) be possible in that bezel?


----------



## Yao

bob m said:


> will a bit of lume (triangle) be possible in that bezel?


The idea is to light up the whole bezel. I am experimenting with a supplier that does the application of the luminous material using a different method than what other companies use. It might be better or a complete train wreck, we'll see.

The primary supplier is using lume printed onto the back of the sapphire insert - tried and tested. Its the way most companies do it (e.g. IWC)


----------



## bob m

wow that sounds great-I was only hoping for a lumed triangle. The whole bezel being lumed is pretty great. I know korsbek recently had a bad run on lumed sapphire bezels for their long awaited hydro explorer. Its sounds like a tough job to get it just right


----------



## Yao

bob m said:


> wow that sounds great-I was only hoping for a lumed triangle. The whole bezel being lumed is pretty great. I know korsbek recently had a bad run on lumed sapphire bezels for their long awaited hydro explorer. Its sounds like a tough job to get it just right


Its a major PITA, which is why I am spending time and resources to try to line up back ups. You can't take this kind of feature for granted.


----------



## tmoris

Yao said:


> Its a major PITA, which is why I am spending time and resources to try to line up back ups. You can't take this kind of feature for granted.


does that mean that there is a slight possibility that the bezel wouldnt be luminous if this supplier didnt work out?


----------



## Yao

tmoris said:


> does that mean that there is a slight possibility that the bezel wouldnt be luminous if this supplier didnt work out?


You should expect a luminous sapphire inlay. I am just covering all of the possible scenarios by trying out another vendor. I am just trying to do everything I can to avoid delays in the production. I would rather be over prepared than caught with my pants down. Even with all of this "insurance" there may still be delays but I thought you guys would appreciate knowing that I am doing everything I can think of.


----------



## tmoris

Yao said:


> You should expect a luminous sapphire inlay. I am just covering all of the possible scenarios by trying out another vendor. I am just trying to do everything I can to avoid delays in the production. I would rather be over prepared than caught with my pants down. Even with all of this "insurance" there may still be delays but I thought you guys would appreciate knowing that I am doing everything I can think of.


yes, certainly. i would rather wait for a luminous bezel insert than get the watch fast without one..


----------



## chris7013

+1 all the way. I will wait for it to be done right. Keep up the good work Bill


----------



## ljb187

chris7013 said:


> +1 all the way. I will wait for it to be done right. Keep up the good work Bill


I feel the same way. I've been reading about MKll's high standards on various WUS threads for a couple of years now and therefore am willing to wait till the cows come home for a watch that lives up to the to-numerous-to-count glowing references and positive anecdotes I've seen.



David465 said:


> Blessed / cursed with a slim wrist, I would prefer the smaller size. The diameter of 42 mm is not so much the problem, but the 50 mm length is.
> Hence, my choice for *option C*:
> Diameter: 41.25 mm
> Length (end of lug to lug): 48.50 - 48.95 mm


I also hope that's the answer, but if it's not I'm happy for the people who get their ideal size (though the feeling would be similar to losing a close playoff game in overtime).


----------



## ffernand

Bill, any word on the survey results? Thanks


----------



## Yao

ffernand said:


> Bill, any word on the survey results? Thanks


The survey's have been closed and the preliminary findings are the watch will be smaller. I can't say how much smaller yet until I dig a little deeper into the results.


----------



## ffernand

Bill,

Thank you for the information. Look forward to the results...


----------



## tmoris

is the luminous bezel insert going to be the same as on paradive or will it have stronger luminosity?


----------



## boostin20

^I was wondering the same thing. Here's to hoping it glows like a torch.


----------



## ASRSPR

As far as bezel lume goes, I always thought that the Paradive was pretty good. Compared to, say, my PRS-14.



(Acrylic bezel version)


----------



## Rusty_Shakleford

^^^ASRSPR, Great lume shot.^^^


----------



## tmoris

ASRSPR said:


> As far as bezel lume goes, I always thought that the Paradive was pretty good. Compared to, say, my PRS-14.
> (Acrylic bezel version)


the picture shows overblown indices and hands and an ok bezel. that means that in reality the hands and indices glow normally whereas the bezel is rather darkish.. not comparing it to precista obviously.. I would like a bezel that can glow for many hours during the night, preferably readable early morning as well (just as i can read my SMP 2254.50 hands/indices any time of the night)


----------



## ASRSPR

I didn't mean to suggest that it was just as bright (it is an 8 second rear-curtain sync exposure, after all). Certainly the hands are much brighter but as far as these things go, it's not too bad at all. I just never thought of this as a major point of concern for the Paradive. It sounds like Bill is suggesting some alternative approach to bezel lume though, so perhaps it'll be better.


----------



## chris7013

I have been busy with life and haven't check up on our 300 progress. Any word on the surveys? Any new ideas being thrown about? Last I heard the watch was going to be on the smaller side of the proposed dimensions and while I'm still ok with it I hope the width isn't reduced by a lot. 
Have a merry Christmas and holiday season. 
Chris


----------



## ffernand

Have the survey results affected in any way the timeline of the Project 300? Would like to know how the survey results will affect the completion of the case design phase and thus help the project move forward.
I would appreciate any input. Thanks!
Merry Christmas to all.......


----------



## chris7013

I also think its time for an update. As far as I know there hasn't been any word on the 300 since October. 
Chris


----------



## Yao

Well back to it. Sorry for the extended pause. The survey results were posted here on the main site. The post in the news section provides some explanation as to what took so long. I will be providing some additional information as to what will be going on over the next two months in a separate post on the forum.

I will be updating the Project 300 page on Thursday for the new dimensions.

In addition to the dimensions of the Project 300 there are a two other updates:

* Regarding the posts above about the sapphire inlay luminescence. I am not sure what the perception at this time is but the lumed inlays that we have done in the past are lumed acrylic and not sapphire. The lumed sapphire inlays that we are doing for the Paradive are proving to be quite good. The fact that the Project 300 features a flat inlay means that it should be easier to control the luminescence of the sapphire inlay. Just before the holidays we shipped out some sapphire inlays for trial of a different process that may be able to deliver even better results. I am still awaiting word on that trial and estimated completion of the samples from the contractor at this point.

* Before the holidays we also received a test batch of hands that if the batch proves consistent we may also be able to feature nicer hands on the Project 300. The initial impressions are very good so we will see if the batch is consistent enough for us to begin working them into our standard list of suppliers

I hope to get some reactions to the size of the Project 300 and see if I read everyone's feedback correctly.

As for the comments above that I deleted...sorry those all represent legitimate gripes but I wanted to clean up the discussion thread. I did read them all and took note. I would post replies to some of the issues raised but the important point in summary is that we finally have the delivery schedule under a semblance of control and I have been working according to a new schedule that will allow me to balance my responsibilities between deliveries and live projects.

Assuming that the size issue doesn't need more discussion we will be turning the discussion towards the name.


----------



## enkidu

Thanks Bill! Dimensions sound good to me. Sapphire bezel sounds delicious. Most important, keep your work/life balance and your health! We all want you doing this for a long, long time.


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## chris7013

Bill, thanks for getting the updates out and filling us in on the size survey. I'm more concerned about the proportions than any size restriction, 41mm - 42mm should be just fine. The inlay is going to be spectacular and I can't wait to see how it pans out for this design. I'm stoked to be a part of this and will bide my time as best as any of us can.
Chris


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## ASRSPR

Bill, thanks for posting the numbers; I'm quite happy at how the survey turned out. I do have one question: for the thickness number, does this represent the thickness of just the case or the entire watch, including the crystal?


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## ffernand

Bill, thank you for the progress report and survey results. Wishing you the best in your quest to reach a balance between deliveries and new projects. Happy to be part of this project and look forward to participate in the design process.


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## Thieuster

Great news, Bill! I think that the revised size(s) are spot on and the acrylic bezel proposition looks promising too. I can hardly wait to see the next survey!

Menno


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## TheGanzman

Bill - Are you/we absolutely commited to the only lume option being the BG W9, or will there be a C3 option as well? I'm guessing NOT, since it looks like you'll be committed to making the bezel luminous as well (which I think is GREAT, BTW!); probably won't want to go through the "trouble" of two different bezel inserts. For whatever MY input is worth (For the record, I own two Watchco Omega Seamaster 300's - my favorite watch!) which of course have the C3 Superluminova - either one will glow ALL NIGHT LONG when adequately "charged". Unless you can pull a rabbit out of your hat with the BG W9, it won't glow as brightly or as long - correct me if I'm wrong...

Having said all that, I'm prolly still "all in" to Pre-Order this one. I've got a Kingston GO coming (w/C3 lume), but have always wanted a Seamaster homage w/the Big Triangle. I owned a Precista for about a week - watch was too thick, indices were too thin, and lume was ****E! It did have a nice domed plexi crystal, though...


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## Peter Atwood

Wow, count me in on this one. I always loved that particular dial on the old Seamasters.


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## ASRSPR

TheGanzman said:


> I owned a Precista for about a week - watch was too thick, indices were too thin, and lume was ****E! It did have a nice domed plexi crystal, though...


Do you mean the PRS-14? I thought that the lume was pretty average - nothing to write home about, but not abjectly terrible. The watch isn't as much thick as it was ill-proportioned - the bezel was much too tall, "like a top-hat" as another forumgoer wrote. On the other hand, the PRS-14's crystal was hardly domed at all. Its height at the center of the cyrstal was probably less than a millimeter above the bezel inlay. It's a nice watch, but I expect that the P300 will best it in all considerations except for price.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

Thank you Bill, for the update. I think your ideas are great and will result in a fantastic watch that I will treasure. Thanks again and Happy New Year to all from Alaska!


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## Yao

ASRSPR said:


> Bill, thanks for posting the numbers; I'm quite happy at how the survey turned out. I do have one question: for the thickness number, does this represent the thickness of just the case or the entire watch, including the crystal?


That figure includes my estimate of the crystal height.

Sorry for the late reply - and I will get to the other questions by Tuesday if not sooner. I will be checking back in over the weekend. Its nearly 2.30 am right now and I have shipments to make on Saturday


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## Yao

ASRSPR said:


> I didn't mean to suggest that it was just as bright (it is an 8 second rear-curtain sync exposure, after all). Certainly the hands are much brighter but as far as these things go, it's not too bad at all. I just never thought of this as a major point of concern for the Paradive. It sounds like Bill is suggesting some alternative approach to bezel lume though, so perhaps it'll be better.


I am trying to strive for a certain ideal. As tmoris suggested the hands and dial and bezel, ideally, should glow equally well. However this is in practice extremely difficult unless you can control all of the component manufacturers directly. The process we are testing has a good chance of making achieving the goal but its exceptionally expensive and could lead to extended delays by the nature of the supplier so they in practice may not be best solution on balance.

The Paradive dive inlay in sapphire comes very close to the ideal but it could be better. The effort required to achieve the final increment to make it "perfect" though may be too high. So far the Paradive dive inlay is the best I have seen to date outside of say the Blancpain FF re-issue.


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## Yao

chris7013 said:


> Bill, thanks for getting the updates out and filling us in on the size survey. I'm more concerned about the proportions than any size restriction, 41mm - 42mm should be just fine. The inlay is going to be spectacular and I can't wait to see how it pans out for this design. I'm stoked to be a part of this and will bide my time as best as any of us can.
> Chris


I chose the specific range because on the high end of the range (49.25 mm) would allow us to keep the proportions exactly the same as the sample I have here. However I think there is room to shorten the watch because the sample I have here is longer than other examples that I have seen. However this maybe due to polishing and wear. For example the military SM300 I used to own...its proportions were just fine but the watch was significantly shorter than the NOS case I have here. I think that this is likely due to the fact that fixed bars were installed in the watch. Usually the MOD weren't very careful about this process but again the watch looked fine.

One of the reasons it took so long for me to get back to you guys was that I was examining the rough sketches I have mocked up to see how the watch could be shortened without affecting the curves and how the watch flows. While I was just visualizing the possibilities it seems feasible. To keep it on the safe side I posted a range for the length though.


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## Yao

TheGanzman said:


> Bill - Are you/we absolutely commited to the only lume option being the BG W9, or will there be a C3 option as well? I'm guessing NOT, since it looks like you'll be committed to making the bezel luminous as well (which I think is GREAT, BTW!); probably won't want to go through the "trouble" of two different bezel inserts. For whatever MY input is worth (For the record, I own two Watchco Omega Seamaster 300's - my favorite watch!) which of course have the C3 Superluminova - either one will glow ALL NIGHT LONG when adequately "charged". Unless you can pull a rabbit out of your hat with the BG W9, it won't glow as brightly or as long - correct me if I'm wrong...
> 
> Having said all that, I'm prolly still "all in" to Pre-Order this one. I've got a Kingston GO coming (w/C3 lume), but have always wanted a Seamaster homage w/the Big Triangle. I owned a Precista for about a week - watch was too thick, indices were too thin, and lume was ****E! It did have a nice domed plexi crystal, though...


We will have to decide on one version, either C3 or BG W9. Making both choices available is very time consuming and one of the lessons learned from the Kingston. Personally I prefer the BG W9 but I will take another fresh look at SM300 I have here, which is also a Watchco. I have it in pieces so its a good excuse to put it back together and wear it around for a few days.

Soooooo long story short its up to the Plankowners....


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## Semuta

I, for one, would prefer the BGW9. I now have watches with both, and though the C3 is great and does glow very brightly, I much prefer the white of the BGW9. And honestly, if you have a clean dial and hand combination, it's going to be legible.

Having said that, I just want to thank Bill for the Kingston, which arrived last week. Truly a work of art. There are so many facets to its character, and the level of finishing and detail is amazing. I assumed that I would be satisfied after receiving my Kingston, that I would feel like I didn't really need any other watches. If anything, the Kingston has intensified my love of watches and I'm really, seriously excited about the 300 project. I know that however it turns out it will be a worthy addition to my slowly growing stable.


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## tmoris

It never ever happened to me that I would prepay this much stuff and be comfortable about it.

Right now, I paid my GO Kingston in full, I prepaid P300 (150+350 iirc) and now 600 for the gmt project. I never ever held an MKII in my hand. All I have is information that has been posted around here and how i evaluate Bill's attitude from what he says/writes. When i think of it, it really may sound ridiculous to many, should I have to explain myself to them. And at the same time I feel really great about these 3 decisions, I have no doubt that it will be worth it. Did i mention, I never held an mkii? 

thank you Bill for the posts above, I really do appreciate you taking the time to read these posts and take them into consideration! best of luck with mkii, hope to stay faithfully yours!


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## enkidu

tmoris said:


> It never ever happened to me that I would prepay this much stuff and be comfortable about it.
> 
> Right now, I paid my GO Kingston in full, I prepaid P300 (150+350 iirc) and now 600 for the gmt project. I never ever held an MKII in my hand. All I have is information that has been posted around here and how i evaluate Bill's attitude from what he says/writes. When i think of it, it really may sound ridiculous to many, should I have to explain myself to them. And at the same time I feel really great about these 3 decisions, I have no doubt that it will be worth it. Did i mention, I never held an mkii?
> 
> thank you Bill for the posts above, I really do appreciate you taking the time to read these posts and take them into consideration! best of luck with mkii, hope to stay faithfully yours!


Hey tmoris, I'm in the exact same situation. Since I try and keep my watch acquisitions to one every half a year, I figure I'm set for three out of my next five slots. I do already own a Blackwater, so it's easier for me to appreciate the MKII allure.


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## Thieuster

My Kingston has the C3 lumen and the TR1000 has the BGW9 lumen. So, I own two MKII watches with two sorts (colors) of lumen. Personally, I think that the C3 lumen is more in line with the vintage character of the P300 watch. Hence my choice: C3.

Menno


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## TheGanzman

Thieuster said:


> My Kingston has the C3 lumen and the TR1000 has the BGW9 lumen. So, I own two MKII watches with two sorts (colors) of lumen. Personally, I think that the C3 lumen is more in line with the vintage character of the P300 watch. Hence my choice: C3.
> 
> Menno


AGREED! Hence MY desire to see the Project 300 offered w/C3; plus the fact that it glows like a TORCH! Having said that, I'll STILL prolly get a Project 300; I respect Bill's need to go w/one lume or the other, and not both, due to the luminous bezel insert...


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## Semuta

To be honest, I'll be happy regardless of whether the 300 has C3 or BGW9. They both look good. However, I've never understood the claim that C3 looks more vintage. I wasn't around when these original Tritium dials were new, but I would imagine that they were originally white, then softened to cream, yellow, orange, whatever. I don't think they ever had the greenish tint that C3 has. I do realize that the white of the BGW9 can be a bit stark, but I've seen some pictures of old watches where the markers were stark white as well. For example (I can't remember where I got this picture, but it helped sway me towards BGW9 for my Kingston, credit wherever credit is due):









But again, I think the watch will be amazing regardless of the choice of lumen.

Now, on another point, I've noticed at least two different bezels on the original SM300's. One has a sharp-edged triangle and a seriffed 1 on the 10. The other has a rounded triangle and no serif on the 1. What is more correct/original for the military version, and which will be on the Project 300?


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## MHe225

Same situation here as for tmoris and enkidu .... looks like I have "always 3 down-payments out on MKII's" Made down-payments on Quad 10, then Kingston, next Project 300. Quad 10 is now almost 2 years in the house (still unworn as I managed to land an IWC Mark XVI too) and have paid the deposit for Project GMT last week.

I thought that my BGW9 was going to be my lume preference, but now I'm doubting that choice. Mr. Bill, you must still have tons of Kingston dials lying around. Is it possible to put two dials with different lume types side-by-side, illuminate them, snap a picture and post in this (or a new) thread, so we all can voice a better informed opinion?

RonB


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## OmegaCosmicMan

> _Personally, I think that the C3 lumen is more in line with the vintage character of the P300 watch. Hence my choice: C3._


|> Agreed! |>


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## tmoris

Im with Semuta on this one. I had a Steinhart VIntage Red and the C3 didnt look too appropriate on it. I sold it a couple of months later, it just didnt have a certain feel to it..

on a side note to the bezel issue: i stumbled across armida diver watches and they seem to be having rather strong bezel lume, even though im not sure that it is the same technology we are about to have on p300. nevertheless, pasting a link to pics


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## Thieuster

> Mr. Bill, you must still have tons of Kingston dials lying around. Is it possible to put two dials with different lume types side-by-side, illuminate them, snap a picture and post in this (or a new) thread, so we all can voice a better informed opinion?


Now, that's a great idea!

Menno


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## Peter Atwood

Either lume choice would be great and I eagerly look forward to the final product. All we need is a bushel of patience now.


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## enkidu

Hey guys, any thoughts as to the font for the bezel? I see two different fonts out there.

The first has the serif on the '1' and a fat top on the '4'








image from curt941 in this (#1) post.

The other one is has the same as the image on the MKII website '1' with no serif and sharp top '4'








image courtesy of mamas (from #144 in this thread)

I much prefer the bottom style, but would be open to changing the font to be more modern as long as it retains the simplicity. I could go for a rounded "Gil Sans" like font.


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## Yao

I will apologize in advance...and try to address the points brought up quickly as I am running short on time this evening.

* Lume brightness question: I will see what I can do. Obviously the dials are here but just need to find some time to take a good photo.

* BG W9 or C3, what is more representative?: Well that is a tougher question. I have always operated on the assumption that Tritium lume back in the 60s and 70s was white to begin with and then turned brown with age. I used to have a Fortis (modern manufacture) with green Tritium lume but I have to believe that the lume would have aged to a different color than beige or brown given time. As such my preference has always been white lume. That having been said all of the modern manufacture "MARS" (if memory serves me) parts that are out there that come out of Watchco use something like C3 or natural SLN. I have a case here and I will compare it to the C3 parts I have.

* Bezel insert design: I am also partial to the sans-serif older style. The "mock-up" watch you see on the Project 300 page was my own military SM300, which I sold a while back. I think a cleaner and slightly stronger font than the one pictured on that page would be they way to go. I look at the serifed font and I think it looks too modern. At the same time the triangle on the sans-serifed version is too weak and messy. I think there is a good medium between the two styles.

Any other points/topics that I missed...feel free to post them and I will take another look on Thursday.


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## tmoris

Yao said:


> I will apologize in advance...and try to address the points brought up quickly as I am running short on time this evening.
> 
> * Lume brightness question: I will see what I can do. Obviously the dials are here but just need to find some time to take a good photo.
> 
> * BG W9 or C3, what is more representative?: Well that is a tougher question. I have always operated on the assumption that Tritium lume back in the 60s and 70s was white to begin with and then turned brown with age. I used to have a Fortis (modern manufacture) with green Tritium lume but I have to believe that the lume would have aged to a different color than beige or brown given time. As such my preference has always been white lume. That having been said all of the modern manufacture "MARS" (if memory serves me) parts that are out there that come out of Watchco use something like C3 or natural SLN. I have a case here and I will compare it to the C3 parts I have.
> 
> * Bezel insert design: I am also partial to the sans-serif older style. The "mock-up" watch you see on the Project 300 page was my own military SM300, which I sold a while back. I think a cleaner and slightly stronger font than the one pictured on that page would be they way to go. I look at the serifed font and I think it looks too modern. At the same time the triangle on the sans-serifed version is too weak and messy. I think there is a good medium between the two styles.
> 
> Any other points/topics that I missed...feel free to post them and I will take another look on Thursday.


Bill, could you please take a look at the bracelet question that we've been discussing over at the panam thread, since it applies for P300 as well and might be a good thing to see if there are any options on this.. thanks a lot!


----------



## Yao

tmoris said:


> Bill, could you please take a look at the bracelet question that we've been discussing over at the panam thread, since it applies for P300 as well and might be a good thing to see if there are any options on this.. thanks a lot!


I took a look at the thread and it brings up some interesting points. To be perfectly honest I don't wear bracelets much. I prefer to use NATOs, US-military style nylon straps, the rubber strap that we offer on the Paradive. In short I am not much of a bracelet man. The one watch I do want to wear with its bracelet is the Kingston...still haven't gotten to sizing my own bracelet yet. :-d

I see the issue raised by the Steinhart bracelet and cover in particular. The cover is what I believe is the industry term for that formed piece of metal that was sticking out and away from the bracelet itself.

What I can tell you is that the bracelet can cost as much if not more than the case body, depending upon the source and quality. Simply put the bracelet has substantially more parts than a case. That's why a lot of companies starting out don't offer a bracelet and why I didn't for the first few years. If people are happy with the Kingston bracelet and the LRRP bracelet then I can expect that you will be happy with the Project 300 bracelet as they are coming from the same source. The LRRP bracelet was a catalog piece, no surprise I am sure. The Kingston bracelet was a mixture of new parts and existing tooling. It kept the price down while also creating something unique. The Project 300 bracelet will be similar to the Omega one but not exactly the same for two reasons 1) were not trying to dupliciate an Omega 2) its unlikely, unless new tooling is made, that something exactly the same exists outside of a black market factory, which we wouldn't touch.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design (Drilled lugs?)*

Has anyone brought up the subject of whether or not the spring-bar holes should be drilled through? I (for one) would prefer to have the lugs drilled through.


----------



## chris7013

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design (Drilled lugs?)*

Great point. I second this motion.


----------



## Semuta

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design (Drilled lugs?)*

I do not want drilled lugs on this. Those look right on a Rolex, but not on an Omega IMO. Actually, and I'm probably in the minority, I would prefer fixed bars...


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design (Drilled lugs?)*

Semuta said,


> I do not want drilled lugs on this. Those look right on a Rolex, but not on an Omega IMO. Actually, and I'm probably in the minority, I would prefer fixed bars...


 How could you have fixed bars, without drilling the lugs through? :-s

:-d:-d


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design (Luminous color, luminosity)*

:think: Found this while trying to learn, and satisfy my own curiosity about this.

For everything you ever wanted to know about 'Luminosity in Watches"
you can go to http://kronometric.org/article/lume/ for a very informative article.


----------



## Semuta

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design (Drilled lugs?)*



OmegaCosmicMan said:


> How could you have fixed bars, without drilling the lugs through? :-s
> 
> :-d:-d


I'm not sure...some sort of welding? I'm not a metallurgist :-d. They were able to do it with the original SM300's, why not us?


----------



## enkidu

Semuta said:


> I'm not sure...some sort of welding? I'm not a metallurgist :-d. They were able to do it with the original SM300's, why not us?


My impression was that, for fixed bars, the lugs are drilled through, a bar is inserted though the full length of the lugs, cut flush with the outside of the lugs (probably not in that order), and peened and/or welded to keep it in place.


----------



## Semuta

I think that was the method used for the Milsubs, but the SM300's didn't have drilled lugs. I'm not sure how they were fitted exactly. Check out the pic in the banner on the Project 300 page for an example.


----------



## enkidu

Semuta said:


> I think that was the method used for the Milsubs, but the SM300's didn't have drilled lugs. I'm not sure how they were fitted exactly. Check out the pic in the banner on the Project 300 page for an example.


Good point. Looking at it, I think it could be done by installing spring bars whose fixed length is exactly the length of the gap. Or you could drill one shallow hole and fit in a bar with a ball joint into the hole on one end and weld both ends. Or just fit a bar into shallow indentations and weld both ends.

Nowadays, if you wanted to be completely bad-ass, you could machine solid bars into the case from the beginning. Hmm, if I ever make my own personal watch, I might do that.


----------



## gmhutton

ASRSPR said:


> Ah, good; I guess we can probably assume that the project is going forward at this point, Bill?
> 
> Since this is also the Dial design thread, I've taken the opportunity to mock up a number of the popular name suggestions (as well as others that I perosnally like) from the other thread, with variations of typeface and dial elements. We can use these to help establish preferences like typeface style (script, sans serif, etc), size, and positioning, as well as logo design, marker style, and misc elements (e.g. Swiss Made).
> 
> For the base, I took a picture of my Precista PRS-14 and modified the elements where it diverges from the original (bezel lume pip, for instance) and replaced the dial with an original vector overlay to match the SM300 dial.
> 
> I used the Mk II wordmark from the website. The typeface for AUTOMATIC is a modified raster of Futura, which emulates closely the original Omega typeface (including flat-top As).
> 
> Here's crowd favorite "Pheon" in script, with circle-Y and big triangle. This and the 12-on-12 version below is my favorite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And with 12-at-12
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Circle-L.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a sans serif font instead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion: "Sublitoral".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In sans-serif.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Trident"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Project 300"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No-name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, my preference is for a script typeface for the name, with circle-Y symbol, and both big triangle and 12-at-12 dial options. The other elements closely emulate the original SM300's design, and I think we should retain those.


i think the non name looks good but withouy the Circle Y symbol. keep it simple clear and crisp. i have 3 Omega SM300's so i think i'm qualified to have an opinion.


----------



## Yao

Okay I am finally back online. The computer is limping along but still running for now.

I will try to take a shot of the lume tomorrow C3 vs. BG W9 and try to throw in the MARS Watchco parts in there for good measure. We'll see how I get on. I usually fumble through the process until I get a photo that I can use.

Other issues we need to begin addressing:

* Dial: I will begin the process of mocking up some drawings of the dial based on my previous work with the "300" dials that I used to offer. Based on the size survey revisit the large majority of people wanted a Big-Triangle dial. A significant portion of the Plankowners want a non-date dial and the general public was split about 50/50 on the non-date versus date option. The color of the date wheel we will mock up for feedback. We won't be printing "Swiss Made" on the dial just so everyone realizes. From this point forward we will be identifying this point on the case backs for all of our watches.

*ASRSPR* has laid some good ground work for discussion on the dials (see above). Please let me know what you guys do and do not like about the above so I can get an idea as to what to develop for your review.

* Case lugs: The idea of a fixed strap pin probably won't fly. Its my impression based on my experience that its something that everyone says they want but when they go to pull the trigger on the purchase they end up buying a watch with spring bars instead. Drilling the holes through the lugs just to make strap changes easier is idea. Let me know if there is interest in this idea.

* For the case I have to begin working on the full mock-up. This will take some time. We have some rough sketches but nothing worth looking at right now.

* Luminous bezel: I talked to two suppliers that I use about options. The sapphire option is still very much alive. The more robust sapphire option that I have made mention did get a lot more complicated. In discussions with my supplier the idea of using molded SLN ring under the sapphire inlay is fraught with technical challenges so its probably not going to happen for the Project 300. We will continue to experiment with it for the Stingray II and see how it goes. There is one other interesting option that I wanted to see if anyone was interested in.....which is ceramic.....what do you think? We would still have to work through some issues like making sure the ceramic inlay lines up correctly with the dial and I don't know how that will play out at the moment.


----------



## ASRSPR

Yao said:


> Okay I am finally back online. The computer is limping along but still running for now.
> 
> I will try to take a shot of the lume tomorrow C3 vs. BG W9 and try to throw in the MARS Watchco parts in there for good measure. We'll see how I get on. I usually fumble through the process until I get a photo that I can use.
> 
> Other issues we need to begin addressing:
> 
> * Dial: I will begin the process of mocking up some drawings of the dial based on my previous work with the "300" dials that I used to offer. Based on the size survey revisit the large majority of people wanted a Big-Triangle dial. A significant portion of the Plankowners want a non-date dial and the general public was split about 50/50 on the non-date versus date option. The color of the date wheel we will mock up for feedback. We won't be printing "Swiss Made" on the dial just so everyone realizes. From this point forward we will be identifying this point on the case backs for all of our watches.
> 
> *ASRSPR* has laid some good ground work for discussion on the dials (see above). Please let me know what you guys do and do not like about the above so I can get an idea as to what to develop for your review.
> 
> * Case lugs: The idea of a fixed strap pin probably won't fly. Its my impression based on my experience that its something that everyone says they want but when they go to pull the trigger on the purchase they end up buying a watch with spring bars instead. Drilling the holes through the lugs just to make strap changes easier is idea. Let me know if there is interest in this idea.
> 
> * For the case I have to begin working on the full mock-up. This will take some time. We have some rough sketches but nothing worth looking at right now.
> 
> * Luminous bezel: I talked to two suppliers that I use about options. The sapphire option is still very much alive. The more robust sapphire option that I have made mention did get a lot more complicated. In discussions with my supplier the idea of using molded SLN ring under the sapphire inlay is fraught with technical challenges so its probably not going to happen for the Project 300. We will continue to experiment with it for the Stingray II and see how it goes. There is one other interesting option that I wanted to see if anyone was interested in.....which is ceramic.....what do you think? We would still have to work through some issues like making sure the ceramic inlay lines up correctly with the dial and I don't know how that will play out at the moment.


Per these new details, I've whipped up some revised mock ups with bond NATO a little glare over the crystal and bezel. As for my personal preferances for the fixed dial options, I want to emphasize again that I think that the P300 should match the placement and general style of the original Seamaster dial, which means a company logo and model name. Without these features, the dial is much too spartan. This is, in my opinion, one of the main failings of the Precista PRS-14 doal design. I understand the hesitation about "busy" dials, but I think that a design such as below is just right. No silly paragraph of text like on the modern SMs - just "Mk II Project 300". It's not that I don't like clean dials (I love my Paradive). It's just that sterile isn't the right move for a Seamaster 300.

No date / white hands:










No date / Silver hands:










Black date wheel:










White date wheel:


----------



## Thieuster

I've said it before and I don't mind saying it again: fantastic pictures! Thanks for 'drawing' them (I cannot come up with the correct word at the moment). You're able to capture these little-but-oh-so-important details! For me, choosing my favo configuration is a 'no brainer': silver hands, no date. Must say, it's very tempting to ask for a 'C3 version' of this watch too. Somehow, I think that it will look a little more authentic than the BG W9 coloured dial.

Last January (I think - cannot find the posting), Bill stated that, for logistic reason (in my words) he opted for only one version: C3 or BG W9. Since your rendering of the P300 watch looks very realistic, I think that it's nice to see both side by side.

Again, thanks for you input!

Menno


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## enkidu

Awesome mockups as usual! Thanks! No date (+destro) is very important to me. I like the silver hands, but think the silver border on the minute hand seems too wide, making the lumed area too narrow.

I'd prefer a lumed sapphire bezel, but ceramic is acceptable also. Lumed sapphire > sapphire > lumed ceramic > ceramic > aluminum.

Drilled lugs would be great if they can be pulled off. The geometry of the lyre lugs might make it tricky though.


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## Kent108

I'm happy to see this project coming along. A few opinions:

- I guess I am in the minority, but I prefer the non-big-triangle version of the dial -- the one that actually as the "12" printed on it. (I'm not sure what that's called, but it's the one shown here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/omega-sm300-vintage-photos-670262.html.) I _think_ I can live with the big triangle one, but would much prefer the alternative

- The script or font for the words Project 300 seems a bit ... girly ... to me. I don't mind a bit of flair, but does the writing have to be so curly and curvy?

- I can go with either date or no-date, but if it's with-date, I'd prefer white lettering on a black background.

- I have one ceramic bezel but no experience with sapphire bezels. Ceramic would be fine with me.


----------



## ASRSPR

A few alternative script typefaces for "Project 300":



















The minute hand lume is a bit narrow. Actually, I compared them with Omega hands and the minute hand itself is narrow in these mockups. I'll fix it when I have some time.


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## Kent108

Yes, the second one in particular is much better, IMO. Thanks!!


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## kywong

ASRSPR's PRS-14 based mock ups are a great starting point so thanks for getting the ball rolling mate. The PRS-14 is very close to the big triangle Seamaster, but its dial still misses the mark on some of the finer details. For example, from the pictures I have seen of a big triangle Seamaster 300, the triangle is wider than the PRS-14 - extending just a touch beyond the 2 minute and 58 minute mark. Also, the minute markers on most of the variants I've seen almost touches the silver chapter ring.

I must agree with Kent108 that the "Project 300" font on ASRSPR's earlier mock ups are a little too curvy? I also think a dial without the "Y" symbol would be cleaner and more well suited to such an elegant watch, although given the lack of opposition to it so far, I am afraid I might be alone on that...

I have a watch with a ceramic bezel, and I absolutely love the way it looks, but I think a sapphire bezel would suit this watch better and look more like the acrylic crystal on the original. However, I might be able to get on board if the dial is an inky black rather than a matte black (I believe the original would be a matte black?). Actually, can we have an inky black dial regardless of the bezel? I think that would make a fantastic modern upgrade, along with the sapphire crystal and bezel.


----------



## ASRSPR

kywong said:


> ASRSPR's PRS-14 based mock ups are a great starting point so thanks for getting the ball rolling mate. The PRS-14 is very close to the big triangle Seamaster, but its dial still misses the mark on some of the finer details. For example, from the pictures I have seen of a big triangle Seamaster 300, the triangle is wider than the PRS-14 - extending just a touch beyond the 2 minute and 58 minute mark. Also, the minute markers on most of the variants I've seen almost touches the silver chapter ring.
> 
> I must agree with Kent108 that the "Project 300" font on ASRSPR's earlier mock ups are a little too curvy? I also think a dial without the "Y" symbol would be cleaner and more well suited to such an elegant watch, although given the lack of opposition to it so far, I am afraid I might be alone on that...
> 
> I have a watch with a ceramic bezel, and I absolutely love the way it looks, but I think a sapphire bezel would suit this watch better and look more like the acrylic crystal on the original. However, I might be able to get on board if the dial is an inky black rather than a matte black (I believe the original would be a matte black?). Actually, can we have an inky black dial regardless of the bezel? I think that would make a fantastic modern upgrade, along with the sapphire crystal and bezel.


That's a very good catch on those subtle differences. I also believe that the 5-minute markers may be slightly longer than on the PRS-14. I never really intended these mockups to be completely representative of what the P300 should ultimately be, only so that people can get a good idea of what the different variations would look like before making their choices in the design process. Of course, I'm in favor of the little details matching the SM300 as much as possible.

I'll try to make a few of these changes in future revisions, but I trust that people can visualize some of the smaller details internally.

The PRS-14 big triangle is a bit narrow, but I'm not sure that the original omega dials extend consistantly beyond the 2/58 minute markers. In Scubawatch.org's shots, they seem to: http://scubawatch.org/seamaster300BT.html

But not in this forum shot: https://www.watchuseek.com/attachme...300-not-really-sure-what-i-have-omega-002.jpg

I don't know if it's just a difference in manufacturing process or between different contracted dial manufacturer (I've seen dial errors and variations on other Omega and period watches to the degree that this is easily believable) or a difference between the 165 and 166.024 models.


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## MHe225

ASRSPR - I may be repeating myself, but don't mind doing so: thank you so much for these fantastic renderings and visualizing for all of us what we are discussing. Very helpful indeed |> 
My choice would be the same as Menno's, no date, silver hand and echo his request for C3 lume ..... And like Kent and several others, I too have been "struggling" (for lack of a better word) with the font used to write Project 300. It's a different watch, but take a look at my Railmaster: silver hands, great lume and a perfect "script font". When I visualize the MKII P300, I transform my Railmaster (on my wrist as we speak) and like what I see.









And those looking for more inspiration / wanting to drool over nice pics, check the https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/watchco-sm300-666377.html thread.

RonB


----------



## Yao

Okay glad to see the discussion picking up. 

A few points:

* We will still shoot for the lumed sapphire. The ceramic is an idea if people really get behind it. A ceramic version would be lumed of course. The lumed section would also be made of a SLN impregnated ceramic so in this sense it may be different than what you have seen other companies do. The cost looks like it will be about the same so will be a mater of aesthetics.
* The hands we will be using a shorter version of the MOD Sword hands that I feature on the LRRP. 
* I am actually looking at fonts right now for the Project 300 name. The feedback so far has been good to read. I am trying to find something that has the elegance of the old font without being exactly the same. I am trying to find a nice way to give the Project 300 watch its own character while preserving the feel of the old watch. Clayton's pic of the SM300 in my mind is just about perfect.

Regarding the BT versus 12 dials...the BT came up the hands down favorite among the Plankowners and a solid favorite among the general survey participants.

If you have some time on your hands you can check out site: myfonts.com and type in "Script" and see what fonts you like. I am still looking at them to narrow the range down because they all pretty much cost money. So if you feel like, possibly investing yourself, more than you may have ever in your life in font choice let me know what you like.

I am at the moment modifying the old 300 dials I used on the Seikos with a wider triangle and working on the font.


----------



## Yao

Let me know what you guys think of these options. The alternative is to use say "300 m ~ 1000 ft" in italics in place of the Project 300 name on the dial and just use the Project 300 name on the case back.


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## ljb187

Yao said:


> The alternative is to use say "300 m ~ 1000 ft" in italics in place of the Project 300 name on the dial and just use the Project 300 name on the case back.


Gut reaction is that I like this option the best. Project 300 is a stealthy name so placing on it the back makes sense. I'm also coming around to Bill's idea of using a basic military style case back and would offer that a WWll MOD inspired style might work:









It's actually kinda charming and suits the character of the watch, plus I'm guessing it would be cheaper than more elaborate alternatives (MKll needs the resources to build my no-date Blackwater). Since it's not UK property perhaps replacing the pheon with an MKll logo would be appropriate.

More modern examples are...antiseptic:


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## giosdad

I think the second one of these two follows the theme in the SM300 the best. (Sorry the image contains both)










This is also a good alternative if you don't like the script in the first one








Though Bill's suggestion of marking the lowe rportion of teh dial with "300 m ~ 1000 ft" in italics is an interesting option adding more individuality to this model.


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## kywong

Love this font.

I wouldn't mind "300 m ~ 1000 ft" on the dial, but I still prefer having Project 300 on the dial rather than the case back. A basic military case back is a great idea, I'd love to see that regardless of whether Project 300 is written on the front or on the back.


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## kkmark

Top right: Cometa.
Any way we can see the font in 1:1? Some of the others might look great at 6:1 but not at 1:1.
I'd go for Project 300 on the dial.


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## ASRSPR

I like Byron too. I've fixed a few things with the mockup suggested by others in this thread: the BT is now wider and the markers go closer to the edge. The lume on the minute hand is also thicker. These changes will be propagated to all future mocks.


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## Thieuster

Although pretty nice, I think prefer ASRSPR's font on the dial of his rederings. Perhaps you can post the fond you've used seperately, like the ones shown above.

Furthermore: when I was thinking of a name for the watch, I came up with 'Pheon'. I remember a detail about this sign (or in modern words: logo) As far as I know, the British MoD doesn't allow the use of the Pheon on non MoD items.

From Wikipedia: Broad arrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> ...Similarly to hallmarks, it is currently a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to reproduce the broad arrow without authority. Section 4 of the Public Stores Act 1875 makes it illegal to use the "broad arrow" on any goods without permission...[SUP][7][/SUP]


Menno


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## Kent108

While I didn't mind Pheon, I believe the name of the watch has already been decided.

As for fonts, I actually like all of the one's Bill posted *except* Vladimir, which -- like the original on ASRSPR's original renderings, I find too feminine.



Thieuster said:


> Although pretty nice, I think prefer ASRSPR's font on the dial of his rederings. Perhaps you can post the fond you've used seperately, like the ones shown above.
> 
> Furthermore: when I was thinking of a name for the watch, I came up with 'Pheon'. I remember a detail about this sign (or in modern words: logo) As far as I know, the British MoD doesn't allow the use of the Pheon on non MoD items.
> 
> From Wikipedia: Broad arrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Menno


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## Thieuster

I don't mean to promote the name 'Pheon' (again), only pointing out the use of the Pheon logo is restricted under British law.

Menno


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## Neily_San

ASRSPR said:


> I like Byron too. I've fixed a few things with the mockup suggested by others in this thread: the BT is now wider and the markers go closer to the edge. The lume on the minute hand is also thicker. These changes will be propagated to all future mocks.


ASRSPR,

This is a FANTASTIC mock-up. 
I know many have thanked you before, but I would like to echo their words. 
It is, for me, near perfection. 
I love the makers, the hands and the "Project 300" font.

I just have one question ... am I the only person who would prefer the dial without the circled-Y ?

Keep up the great work.
:-D
Neily


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## kkmark

ASRSPR, that is a great mock-up!

I don't mind Byron as a font - looks good.

My vote would be to leave the circle Y out but I'm 60-40 about this.

-------------

Has there been any discussion on the bezel font and bezel minute marker thickness/length?


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## OmegaCosmicMan

Neily_San said:


> ASRSPR,
> 
> This is a FANTASTIC mock-up.
> I know many have thanked you before, but I would like to echo their words.
> It is, for me, near perfection.
> I love the makers, the hands and the "Project 300" font.
> 
> I just have one question ... am I the only person who would prefer the dial without the circled-Y ?
> 
> Keep up the great work.
> :-D
> Neily


Ditto on the Great Work |>|>

(No, You are not the only person) - To me, it just seems like it 'circle-Y' adds some unnecessary clutter to the dial. I wouldn't mind doing without, and also hope that no one takes offense.

Prefer 'Project 300' appearing on face, but could live with alternative Bill proposed above (300m ~ 1000ft). But I suppose that also means we would end up with a 300 meter |> depth rating? :think:


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## Thieuster

I really think that fellow member <m.and>'s pic deserves to be posted here also:


----------



## kywong

ASRSPR, that is a fantastic mockup! I feel we're getting real close, but I still couldn't help but feel that it doesn't quite have the right balance. I couldn't quite put my finger on why, so I took the liberty of superimposing an image I found of the original (unfortunately I have forgotten where I found it) on ASPSPR's mockup (I hope that's okay ASPSPR! If not let me know I'll remove it.).









First and foremost, I was amazed at how the two triangles, as well as the dial and case aligned almost perfectly. The differences were... a) The bezel is narrower, with a thicker silver ring between the dial and the bezel; b) The hour markers taper less and are longer; and c) The 3, 6, 9 markers are slightly wider and shorter.

I am aware that the original point of ASRSPR's mockup is to aid our imagination more so than to be precise representation of the original, so I applaud him for going above and beyond that - I will never be able to produce mockups as good as his. But hopefully by pointing out the differences, Bill will be able to get the final product absolutely spot on (which he's done so well for the Kingston).

I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one who is not a fan of the Y! I think it looks cleaner without it.


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## ASRSPR

kywong said:


> ASRSPR, that is a fantastic mockup! I feel we're getting real close, but I still couldn't help but feel that it doesn't quite have the right balance. I couldn't quite put my finger on why, so I took the liberty of superimposing an image I found of the original (unfortunately I have forgotten where I found it) on ASPSPR's mockup (I hope that's okay ASPSPR! If not let me know I'll remove it.).
> 
> View attachment 680258
> 
> 
> First and foremost, I was amazed at how the two triangles, as well as the dial and case aligned almost perfectly. The differences were... a) The bezel is narrower, with a thicker silver ring between the dial and the bezel; b) The hour markers taper less and are longer; and c) The 3, 6, 9 markers are slightly wider and shorter.
> 
> I am aware that the original point of ASRSPR's mockup is to aid our imagination more so than to be precise representation of the original, so I applaud him for going above and beyond that - I will never be able to produce mockups as good as his. But hopefully by pointing out the differences, Bill will be able to get the final product absolutely spot on (which he's done so well for the Kingston).
> 
> I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one who is not a fan of the Y! I think it looks cleaner without it.


Nice work! I think that the biggest difference by far is the hour markers, so I'll see if I have some time to focus on those sometime in the near future.

I have to say that I'm a fan of the Circle-Y, if mostly for the fact that, like the BT, it helps differentiate the P300 from the run-of-the-mill civie SM300 that are widely available. Plus, it's a really nice throwback to MkII's original 3-6-9 circle-Y dials.

Maybe it's a bit too thick? I do think that the Circle-T on the SM300 looks a bit cleaner.


----------



## enkidu

ASRSPR said:


> Nice work! I think that the biggest difference by far is the hour markers, so I'll see if I have some time to focus on those sometime in the near future.
> 
> I have to say that I'm a fan of the Circle-Y, if mostly for the fact that, like the BT, it helps differentiate the P300 from the run-of-the-mill civie SM300 that are widely available. Plus, it's a really nice throwback to MkII's original 3-6-9 circle-Y dials.
> 
> Maybe it's a bit too thick? I do think that the Circle-T on the SM300 looks a bit cleaner.


I like the Circle-Y also.

I agree that the Seamaster's Circle-T looks cleaner. I think it's because it is smaller, maybe 140% the height of the "300", whereas the Circle-Y in the Project 300 mockup is almost 200%.


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## Thieuster

Great way to compare the original and the mock-up. Once again, this shows the quality of the mock-up! I think the Circle Y has to be on the dial, it's after all Bill's design! And this two layer pic of the mock-up and the original shows is the point why I don't like the font of 'Project 300'! It's too pointy at the ends: the 'Seamaster 300' writing has the same width from the beginning to the end, where the width of the 'Project' lettering is variable.

The original Seamaster's dial has longer hour markers. But I hadn't noticed that the marker on the mock up are shorter. Again, that proves the quality of the mock-up.

Menno


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## giosdad

I agree that the circle Y is a Yao trademark and belongs on the dial, possibly thin it out to the ratio of the circle T. I see Menno's point on the font. It has the feel of a "stock font" from a catalog. What are the challenges of having a custom font created in terms of cost and repeatability for Quality? The last think I would want is for Bill to scrap dials as they would have to meet his standard, having said that that issue might remain for any writing on the dial. Therefore just a cost question.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

giosdad said:


> I agree that the circle Y is a Yao trademark and belongs on the dial, possibly thin it out to the ratio of the circle T. I see Menno's point on the font. It has the feel of a "stock font" from a catalog. What are the challenges of having a custom font created in terms of cost and repeatability for Quality? The last think I would want is for Bill to scrap dials as they would have to meet his standard, having said that that issue might remain for any writing on the dial. Therefore just a cost question.


I understand and appreciate your point concerning the 'Yao trademark', but would also say that MKII is Bill's brand....Doesn't that suffice to identify these watches as his creative vision? It's up to Bill....

But also appreciate Menno's point about the size of the trademark relative to the other design elements. I don't mind if it appears on the face, (and wouldn't mind if it was left off) but like the suggestions that it be scaled down some- Actually like design suggestions that all of the subordinate nomenclature would seem to be smaller and less intrusive on the dial overall. I think the main thing is to preserve the easily recognizable readability of the 'Big triangle' design, and to that end, if the watch is to have a date option, why not place the date window at 4:30 so the 'Big Triangle 3-6-9' design maintains its symmetrical appeal, unbroken? (gotta plug the 4:30 date thing-apologies where warranted).

Good discussion, contributing my two cents worth.

-Good Day to All....


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Thieuster said:


> I really think that fellow member <m.and>'s pic deserves to be posted here also:
> 
> View attachment 679237


Agreed |>....(and no 'Circle-Y' either).

But notice how the date window at 3, 'takes away' from the original design elements - if it has to have a date, couldn't it be at 4:30, with a black date wheel? I know the date window wasn't designed this way when it originally appeared, but we can do it better (IMHO). So, you can have a date window, and preserve the classic elements of the 'Big Triangle, 3-6-9 dial' too!!! b-)


----------



## Thieuster

Good point about the window at 4:30. Most of the time I don't notice the date window (with black date wheel) on my Vantage. And what's more: Bill always told us that he was not planning a copy of the Seamaster! There has to be a difference between the original and Yao version: the date window a 4:30 could be it (possible in combination with the shorter hour markers?). It still has the look and feel, but it's different.

Menno


----------



## ljb187

Guys, I apologize in advance for this post as I'm not usually so blunt on WUS.


I hate to say it - especially since I'm not offering an alternative - but I think the fonts suggested in the last few days have a "greeting card" quality to them. They're sort of generically fancy without having much real character. I don't think such scripts suit the 300 which in my view has a crude but beautiful quality to its design.


----------



## Thieuster

ljb187 said:


> Guys, I apologize in advance for this post as I'm not usually so blunt on WUS.
> 
> I hate to say it - especially since I'm not offering an alternative - but I think the fonts suggested in the last few days have a "greeting card" quality to them. They're sort of generically fancy without having much real character. I don't think such scripts suit the 300 which in my view has a crude but beautiful quality to its design.


Sometimes, I notice that my knowledge of the English language isn't enough to express my thoughts. Luckily, there's always an other Forumite to step in. ljb187's words are EXACTLY what I mean! Thank you sir!

Menno


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

> Originally posted by ljb187
> 
> I hate to say it - especially since I'm not offering an alternative - but I think the fonts suggested in the last few days have a "greeting card" quality to them. They're sort of generically fancy without having much real character. I don't think such scripts suit the 300 which in my view has a crude but beautiful quality to its design.





Thieuster said:


> Sometimes, I notice that my knowledge of the English language isn't enough to express my thoughts. Luckily, there's always an other Forumite to step in. ljb187's words are EXACTLY what I mean! Thank you sir!
> 
> Menno


I'm with you guys on this one - the trouble is that our inspiration has a script 'Seamaster' - is there an alternative that is simpler without all the flowing greeting-card who-haw? I actually lean toward the 'Cometa' I guess, but the 'P' has such an over-sized flowing thing on it that does not belong, IMHO. 'Dyna' or 'Kinscope' are interesting except for the zeros, which are too complicated. Go for 'Cometa' but with the 'P' from one of the others? I dunno....ideas anyone?


----------



## Neily_San

giosdad said:


> I agree that the circle Y is a Yao trademark and belongs on the dial


Fair point. Whilst it would be my preference not to have the circled-Y ( and it would appear I am not alone ), I will be more than happy whatever decision Bill makes. I love the fact that Bill allows us to air our thoughts, opinions and preferences ... but at the end of the day I trust that Bill will be the final judge of what meets his supremely high design and build standards.

We all know he is going to deliver a first rate product.

:-D

Neily


----------



## Yao

Thanks for all the thoughtful and insightful comments, especially about the fonts. The last few comments about the font were negative (which is not to say that's bad in this case) but constructive. I sometimes customize a font to suit a project but this may be especially difficult given the script style font. Putting the depth rating in its place might better preserve the aesthetic of the watch. After all the names aren't the same either so I am just saying that we may be expecting the "project 300" name to fill shoes that are just too big.

The 4.30 date window we will just have to see how it looks in a mock-up. Most people that took the survey preferred the date window at 3. However I think this is a view that may change when they see it rather than trying to imagine it.

I think what you will find is that the proportions (hour markers vs script vs logo size) will make a big difference in how crowded or legible a dial feels. Ultimately the dial design will have to be tailored/adjusted to the final case design. It's useful now to decide what elements people want on the dial. 

The circle-y is really up to you guys. 

I will be back online Friday and will try to do the more mock-ups to add to the discussion. I will also try to take that lume shot I keep promising....sorry but we got a new camera a while ago and I have delegated all the photography since then so I have to find enough time to fumble around with it to figure out how to take a lume shot again.


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## chris7013

There is a preponderance of good ideas and a minimal amount of space and time in which to apply them. Lets keep our ideas and dreams on point and within reason. The only thing I can think of capable of adding a severe amount of class would be applied indices, and I realize this doesn't fall into the within reason problem. I am beside myself with the inability to clearly describe my desire for this to outshine the Kingston in every aspect. My fear is it will become an also ran and not get the attention it deserves as the second forum designed watch.


----------



## Kent108

If the date window were to be offered and set at the 4:30 position, I would request that the digit itself stand straight up (aligned with the 12-6 axis) rather than tilted (so that the top of the digit points toward the outside of the dial). I really hate the latter style ...



Yao said:


> Thanks for all the thoughtful and insightful comments, especially about the fonts. The last few comments about the font were negative (which is not to say that's bad in this case) but constructive. I sometimes customize a font to suit a project but this may be especially difficult given the script style font. Putting the depth rating in its place might better preserve the aesthetic of the watch. After all the names aren't the same either so I am just saying that we may be expecting the "project 300" name to fill shoes that are just too big.
> 
> The 4.30 date window we will just have to see how it looks in a mock-up. Most people that took the survey preferred the date window at 3. However I think this is a view that may change when they see it rather than trying to imagine it.
> 
> I think what you will find is that the proportions (hour markers vs script vs logo size) will make a big difference in how crowded or legible a dial feels. Ultimately the dial design will have to be tailored/adjusted to the final case design. It's useful now to decide what elements people want on the dial.
> 
> The circle-y is really up to you guys.
> 
> I will be back online Friday and will try to do the more mock-ups to add to the discussion. I will also try to take that lume shot I keep promising....sorry but we got a new camera a while ago and I have delegated all the photography since then so I have to find enough time to fumble around with it to figure out how to take a lume shot again.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design >> Font Proposal*



ljb187 said:


> Guys, I apologize in advance for this post as I'm not usually so blunt on WUS.
> 
> I hate to say it - especially since I'm not offering an alternative - but I think the fonts suggested in the last few days have a "greeting card" quality to them. They're sort of generically fancy without having much real character. I don't think such scripts suit the 300 which in my view has a crude but beautiful quality to its design.


Hi All-

I took Bill's suggestion, and looked around on myfonts.com. Based on my own preferences and comments read here, what do you think about this? This font is simple, strong, clear and has a 1950's kind of vibe, I think. It is in a font named Lombriz:


----------



## kywong

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design >> Font Proposal*

Here's a crazy idea, how about no "flowing" font? Obviously the Seamaster has a beautiful script font, but it has a... I don't know... mythical or romantic name? The master of the sea. Whereas Project 300 is a more functional name.

I had a stab at editing ASPSPR's excellent mockup, editing the hour markers, reducing the thickness of the bezel, and adding a boxy sort of font (Microgramma from MyFonts.com). As you can see the details that I changed are less refined (I was only trained to use Photoshop for photographic purpose!), but I hope it will help us visualise what the font may look like on the watch?


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## ljb187

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design >> Font Proposal*

Rough proposal for dial layout and text (more content then style):









However, I kind of liked the general appearance of the stock MS Word Constantia font so even though I'm one of the few who's not a big fan of the chosen name (I thought it sounded unfinished), here's the same using winner. I added the bracketed "M" (meters) because it seems more technical...a little like varients of the Spitfire (Mk Vc, Mk XlVe...). This helped to mitigate my own personal concerns regarding the refinement of the name, plus I think/hope the text looks more interesting this way:









I'm OK losing the brackets as long as you guys will let me keep the M (for the same reasons as above):


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## OmegaCosmicMan

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design >> Font Proposal*

Here is what I have developed using some ideas I had proposed and what I have heard from others. Font proposed "Lombriz" and stripped down nomenclature, no automatic, no Circle-Y etc. Just the Basics, MKII and Project 300. Hope the image scales correctly. If I can't get the date window in this configuration with a black date wheel-white font, no window outline and positioned at 4:30, I'll pick the no-date option, and I'm fine with that. Just proposed this because I thought it preserves the essential elements of this classic dial design and was the cleanest, most elegant way to display a date option.

I couldn't have done this without the work and ideas of others, so much of the credit is due elsewhere. Thanks Guys -







After looking at this for the thirteenth time or so, I don't have the date window positioned into the minute track enough-I think it would really fall further away from the center and around to halfway into the minute track, but this will give the general idea.


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## Kent108

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design >> Font Proposal*

I like this version a lot. It strikes me as looking very purposeful (IMO a good thing), where the flowing fonts seem to be more about emphasizing the "retro" nature of this project.



kywong said:


> Here's a crazy idea, how about no "flowing" font? Obviously the Seamaster has a beautiful script font, but it has a... I don't know... mythical or romantic name? The master of the sea. Whereas Project 300 is a more functional name.
> 
> I had a stab at editing ASPSPR's excellent mockup, editing the hour markers, reducing the thickness of the bezel, and adding a boxy sort of font (Microgramma from MyFonts.com). As you can see the details that I changed are less refined (I was only trained to use Photoshop for photographic purpose!), but I hope it will help us visualise what the font may look like on the watch?
> 
> View attachment 688640


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## marchone

*Re: Project 300: Dial and case design >> Font Proposal*

That is an excellent choice of sans serif font for the model name. The earlier script versions have a DIY feel about them.

I know from the published specs for Project 300 on the MKII website that it states an option open depending on case design is either 200m or 300m water resistance but it has to live up to its moniker.

I also vote for a 120 click sapphire inlay bezel if possible.


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## enkidu

I'm not a fan of any of the script fonts posted so far. Especially problematic are the fonts which have a varying stroke width. Because the size of the font is so small, varying the width of the stroke will make the text look uneven. If you look at the original, the script font has a very consistent stroke width.

I like the mockups with less text more. Kywong's microgamma idea is interesting, but the font is too modern for my taste; love the layout. ljb187's first text only example looks nice, except that the 'M' in 300M should not be capitalized; the metric unit is always lower case.


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## Yao

I have been struggling with the script font for the Project 300 and using the depth (e.g. 300 m ~ 1000 ft). The comment that the fonts that I had suggested were just too "greeting card" really hit the nail on the head in my opinion. The more I studied the font used on the original the more convinced I became that we aren't going to find a font that would lend the same flavor to the "Project 300" name. If the search results are correct I have probably looked at over 1,000 different fonts and all just seem like low-calorie alternative to the real thing. In other words nothing I was able to find evoked the same feeling.

I ran with the other idea I posted earlier which is to use the depth rating instead (I think it has possibilities whether the depth is 300 m or 200 m).









Let me know what you think. (The image might be too small so I will have to edit it after I see what it looks like posted).

I also liked kywong's idea but at the same time understand that many may feel the font is too modern. I think it works but probably isn't what a lot of people had in mind.


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## Yao

Okay the picture came out okay. So the differences are:

A & B: I just removed the Circle-Y
C & D: D has the Circle-Y removed. Both C & D are missing the word "Automatic" under the logo.

To be honest I am not a fan of the open 9s and 6s. I think its just too close to the original. 

Basically I'd like to see where people come out on the layout and the text. Ultimately the 3, 6, 9 and the proportions may have to change based on the way the bezel looks and once the case design is done.


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## es335

Bill,

Looks like Watchco is unloading their SM300s. That means demand for your Project 300 should increase if the Watchco's are no longer available.

Here's my two cents:

1. Kill the Circle Y. No offense, but that's just cheesy. You already have MKII on the dial. Adding a "circle Y" for "Yao" is superfluous and irrelevant as an homage to the circle T tritium dials. It serves no purpose and just looks self aggrandizing. You are making an homage of 1960s design -- not a brand new from scratch creation.
2. Don't italicize the san serif text (i.e. 300 m) -- italics makes it look like a flash in the pan Tag Heuer font. If you're not going to use cursive as per the original SM300, then don't italicize, as italicization lacks seriousness and looks amateurish.
3. If you want to differentiate from the Watchco SM300 with modern day replacement dials, please *make sure you CURVE the corners of the date window*. For some reason, the curved corners of the date window on the original 1960s models look so much better than the squared versions on the modern day Watchcos.


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## OmegaCosmicMan

Yao said:


> Okay the picture came out okay. So the differences are:
> 
> A & B: I just removed the Circle-Y
> C & D: D has the Circle-Y removed. Both C & D are missing the word "Automatic" under the logo.
> 
> To be honest I am not a fan of the open 9s and 6s. I think its just too close to the original.
> 
> Basically I'd like to see where people come out on the layout and the text. Ultimately the 3, 6, 9 and the proportions may have to change based on the way the bezel looks and once the case design is done.


I vote for Bill's Dial "D"- Like the font, layout, 'depth rating' instead of name, everything. 'Simpler is better.' |>


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## Thieuster

I really like the _300 m - 1000 ft_ solution! Indeed, it's better than the 'Project' text. One detail: according to the 'Système International d'Unites' in Paris, it's 'm' and not 'M', so this _300 m_ is the correct way of writing this.

Furthermore, I love the look of all dials! However, the curved corners of the date window give the dial a more original look, the straight corners are very 'aftermarket' when you compare them. (As a matter of fact, it's the same with Seiko's 6105 dials)



> Looks like Watchco is unloading their SM300s.


Where did you find them?

Menno


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## Neily_San

Yao said:


> A & B: I just removed the Circle-Y
> C & D: D has the Circle-Y removed. Both C & D are missing the word "Automatic" under the logo.


Bill,

Whilst I prefer the Project 300 on the dial, I am more than willing to go with your recommendation on the depth rating.

Of the above dials I would go with dial B.

:-D

Neily


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## Yao

es335 said:


> please *make sure you CURVE the corners of the date window*. For some reason, the curved corners of the date window on the original 1960s models look so much better than the squared versions on the modern day Watchcos.


Edward thanks for this detail!

I took some lume shots last night but want to wait for more feedback on the depth rating idea and dial mock-ups I posted before starting a new line of discussion. So please post your feedback!


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## Kent108

My preference is for dial B: no "Y", but with the word "Automatic"


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## Tetraflop

No depth rating please.
It looks "wrong" on a 300 dial.

Dietmar


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## marchone

The Breitling SuperOcean Heritage 42 may be a good reference to draw against. It does a lot of things right like mixing cursive and sans-serif fonts.

On another note, the Circle Y logo has a lot of branding opportunity in it. Use it alone to create another product line, or combine it above MKII or kill MKII and rebrand as "Circle Y" Yao. Like Omega does with its Greek letter atop its name.


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## curt941

Yao said:


> View attachment 690187


I like dials B and D. But I noticed the hour indices at 3,6 and 9 are curved not flat on the inside. Subtle, but I would make them flat.

Other than that I like it a lot |>


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## Neily_San

Bill, 

If I vote for dial B again, does that count as 2 votes ;-D

Neily


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## OmegaCosmicMan

Neily_San said:


> Bill,
> 
> If I vote for dial B again, does that count as 2 votes ;-D
> 
> Neily


If you do, then I get to vote for dial "D" again- hahahahaha :-d:-!


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## chris7013

I assume this isn't the final choice we have to make, but if it were I would go with B.


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## Semuta

To me the open 9 and 6 is an integral part of the design...


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## sotomakikomi

I really love the 300m-1000ft option with no name. I like dial B (automatic, no Y) but option D is very good also. I don't like the Y circle, but I think that open 6s and 9s would be better.


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## enkidu

D is my favorite followed by B. No date window for me, please, so as to destro-fy as is my wont.


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## Yao

Tetraflop said:


> No depth rating please.
> It looks "wrong" on a 300 dial.
> 
> Dietmar


Thanks for your input. What would you like to see instead?


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## Yao

chris7013 said:


> I assume this isn't the final choice we have to make, but if it were I would go with B.


If you have more detail to add please do. This isn't the final decision but everyone's feedback will shape the discussion going forward.

So if you have more to add this is the time.


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## gman54

enkidu said:


> D is my favorite followed by B. No date window for me, please, so as to destro-fy as is my wont.


I second enkidu's comment.


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## Yao

gman54 said:


> I second enkidu's comment.


There will be a date and a non-date version at the least. There will be only one lume option though in case anyone was wondering.


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## Kent108

On on unrelated note, this case design thread, started in August 2011, now has 257 posts and 13 pages; this makes it a bit of a pain to locate the newest comments. Any chance we can lock this down and start a new thread now that the project is a definite go and serious design (rather than speculation) has begun?



Yao said:


> There will be a date and a non-date version at the least. There will be only one lume option though in case anyone was wondering.


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## Neily_San

Yao said:


> There will be a date and a non-date version at the least. There will be only one lume option though in case anyone was wondering.


Bill,

Thanks for this update.

Of course it now makes my choice more challenging. Obviously thus is z good challenge to have.

If there is going to be a date window then may I please add my voice to the request for rounded corners.

Also ( clarification : this is not a play for a spares kit as per the Kingston ) would you allow us to choose a date and then order a non-date after the fact ?

Thanks in advance.

Neily


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## Tetraflop

Yao said:


> Thanks for your input. What would you like to see instead?


My thoughts:
Only modern Omegas use this style of depth rating but a lot of modern and vintage Rolex`do.
Project 300 is a homage of a vintage Omega, so this depth rating feels " wrong " for me.

If really no font works for the Project 300 name
I´d prefer
- nothing written
- or the circled Y works great for me.

Dietmar


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## chris7013

I second that, the thread is hard to follow and has too many branches. As far as the dial goes I'm split. Half of me likes the scripts and logos on the dial, but for me it fits best with a date version. The no-date is cool even sterile but the circle Y would tie it all together. I'm still hoping applied indices magic their way into the build. Bill, will there be multiple dial options or are we going o narrow it down to just one. If so I like the big triangle no date with a circle Y.


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## Yao

chris7013 said:


> I second that, the thread is hard to follow and has too many branches. As far as the dial goes I'm split. Half of me likes the scripts and logos on the dial, but for me it fits best with a date version. The no-date is cool even sterile but the circle Y would tie it all together. I'm still hoping applied indices magic their way into the build. Bill, will there be multiple dial options or are we going o narrow it down to just one. If so I like the big triangle no date with a circle Y.


We will do one non-date and one date dial. They don't have to exactly the same but there will only be two dial options.

If someone has time before I do we can just take the mock-ups that have been done and the dial pic that I posted the other day and we can create another thread.


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## kywong

Dial B for me, the MKII without the automatic looks like its missing something.

I think the depth rating is the perfect solution; even though I made the mockup with Microgramma (which was a slightly modified version of ASRSPR's excellent mockup) I have to agree it is probably too modern, but I just wanted to throw it out there and see if it can take us a different direction. Just because the original had a script font doesn't mean this has to too. Indeed, if many oppose of the depth rating, I would propose perhaps a simple discreet serif font like the one I attached below. But I still think the depth rating is the best solution we have to date.

With regards to the 9 and 6; due to fake vintage Seamasters, I can't help but associate a closed 9 and 6 on a Seamaster 300 design with product of inferior quality - lacking in attention to detail. For that reason I hope the 9 and 6 will be open as per the original.


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## marchone

Design of the SM300 changed substantially from 1957 to 1969. Fonts, indices, markers, hands, bezel, all changed during its production.

A History of the Omega Seamaster 3oo


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## enkidu

Hey guys, pre Bill's suggestion above, I've attempted to reboot the dial design thread here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/project-300-dial-design-thread-reboot-683110.html

kywong, I've taken the liberty of copying your latest post also. Thanks for the great ideas guys, this is exciting.


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## ljb187

I've found a font that I think is really interesting. It's called Tierra Nueva and it's based on a map of the New World dated 1562. It's a substantial, good looking font with a bit of panache. The historical/seafaring origin is also a nice tie-in. I favor Norte Italic and Sur Script


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## Thieuster

Nice font! Since it's echoing a Dutchman's craftmanship, I'm even more interested!!

Menno


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## MHe225

Apologies, I'm a little late to the discussion (hate it when work gets in the way of "designing watches") ;-)

I was surprised how the naming of the watch turned out, given that we had all these great alternatives and prefer the dial showing 300 m ~ 1,000 ft rather than Project 300.
In addition, I'm not too hot on the circle Y - as some already pointed out, it's either that or MKII and since the brand name is still MKII ...... Which leads me to vote for dial B.

Still torn between the date and no-date version. I like the symmetry of the no-date version better, but then, giving up on the date altogether .... don't know. And the details pointed out on the "rounded" date window are just beautiful - it's indeed the difference between a cheap looking homage and a true one.

RonB

*PS - Menno:* Watchco is having a big sale on eBay. Still bummed that I missed out on their final SM300's. They sold a proverbial bunch - their last ones. Then a week ago, there were 6 more last ones (missed those too as I was travelling on business)


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## Alan B

I like Bill's B design. I think the depth rating is much better than the Project 300 script. I'm also a 'simpler is better' person, but I like the automatic notation because it balances the upper and lower watch face better. 

First time I've ever been involved in watch design. Thanks to Bill and the many Mk II supporters who have let me add my two cents.

Alan


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## Yao

I am going to close this thread as Enkidu was kind enough to pull everything together for a new thread here.

I just finished putting some POs done before the Swiss and many of the European companies start eying their summer vacation in July. I will be back online on Thursday this week.


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