# Zenith in Besancon



## LouS

At various times in various threads, the subject of Zenith manufacture in Besancon has come up. Where can I find more infomration on this? For example, years of operation, models and numbers produced, etc. Is this is Rossler somewhere?


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## Gombrich

I think there's about a paragraph in the history section of Rössler and that's about it. I hope someone can shed some light on this as it's an interesting topic. It's particularly interesting how the Besançon factory seems not to have just produced versions of the Swiss made watches but seems to have produced distinct designs.

Dave


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## samol

Zen from the french forum "forum a montre" wrote a paragraphe with 2 pictures here :
http://forumamontres.forumactif.com...-rares-images-t82343.htm?highlight=besan%e7on
Here's another thread with a few data :
zenith besançon - Besançon et sa manufacture Zenith fermée au milieu des années 70


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## LouS

samol,

very helpful, but they are both the same link. Was there another link you were thnking of?

Translation of Zen's short post from the above link:

"Zenith in Besançon closed its doors in the middle of the 1970's. It made wristwatches, essentially with calibres 120 and 106, and pocket watches...

The machine tools and procedures were identical to those at Le Locle, and movement quality was rigorously overseen. ZENITH France permitted the brand wider and freer distribution in the french market as it was not subject to customs quotas. 

Oddly, certain watches did not have any mention of their origin, as if the stork had flown them across the border (both ways) in the night..."

I think Zen is implying in the last sentence that some watches which were produced at one location were issued as if produced at the other, probably to avoid quotas and customs duties


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## samol

Here is the first link again with the 2 pictures (interior and exterior of the building).
http://forumamontres.forumactif.com...re-zenith-de-besancon-rares-images-t82343.htm


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## sempervivens

Zenith - Watch Wiki, The Best Watches And Watch Brands

according to this wikiwatch article, Zenith opened its Paris branch in 1909 and another company in Besançon in 1923.

According to some information I read on an Italian forum, which I will translate here,

"_The Zenith factory of Besançon was operating from 1923 and in 1930 (in full economic crisis) there were 65 people employed there._
_They worked side to side with the factory in Le Locle, producing only certain models and/or movements._
_Besançon is near the Swiss border and has a great horological tradition. Still in 1930, there were 1134 people working in the sector._
_Besançon is also famous for the Besançon Observatory chronometer concours. _
_The production in the French factory were stamped with their own serial numbers. _
_Whereas Zenith serial numbers are in the millions (both for the movements and on the back of the case), _
_the" French" serial numbers didn't reach a million in the years 40-50._
_Still these are tens of thousands of pieces, made from 1923 until the closure in the years 1960/1970_."

A serial number between 500.000 and 600.000 is typical for a Zenith watch made in the 1950's in Besançon.
My guess is that on average around 17.000 Zenith watches were made in Besançon every year between 1923 and 1963.
Maybe more in the beginning and during the 1950's, possibly production was halted during WW II.


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## Hans61

I asked Zenith about Besancon. They can not help. 
All documents were destroyed.

So we have to help ourself.
Who can benefit from the design details to draw conclusions about the time of production?
Please add your watches.

53624




















76634




















85258




















90162




















137405




















370007














632164




















786273


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## Hartmut Richter

BLOODY HELL! - where do you keep pulling these from?! It looks like the next time I visit my parents in Lower Bavaria, I have to stop by for a clandestine, midnight visit to your house! What did you say your adress was......?!! ;-)

The pocket watches look very "twenties" to me - and most of them are, judging by the serial numbers. The "rhomboid Breguet" hands really have "art deco" written all over them! Nice watches!

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

That is a nice line-up. You could have added your mystery watch (# 370007), but that is a mysterious movement as well.

That first pw # 53624, perhaps 1926 ?

The other pw's perhaps all 1920's, except the last one which has a much higher number # 137405 and which looks more 'modern' : perhaps around 1930.

The last but one in the list, wristwatch # 632164, cal. 106-50-6, and nice special lugs, I would date this around 1958.

The last one is the easiest # 786273, based on the movement 2532c and style that must be around 1965.
Unless you fooled me and it is a new vintage 1965 :-d

That is a cool collection and based on this exposition I would say that they made on average 20000 watches every year in Besançon (but perhaps few or nothing during WW II).


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## Gombrich

I have just the one Besancon model that I picked up recently. No. 908292 with a Cal 106-50-6. The number doesn't seem to tally with the general run of numbers and the 106 movement seems quite antiquated for the likely date of the watch. Puzzling, non?




























Dave


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## sempervivens

Gombrich said:


> I have just the one Besancon model that I picked up recently. No. 908292 with a Cal 106-50-6. The number doesn't seem to tally with the general run of numbers and the 106 movement seems quite antiquated for the likely date of the watch. Puzzling, non?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave


Dave you are referring to the number on the caseback. Just like Zenith Switzerland, Zenith Besançon also had separate serial numbers on the caseback. (Here also, it seems that in Besançon they never reached a million, although yours is close to it). 
But we were referring to the serial numbers on the movement. Yours has 662755, that is close to the watch Hans showed with the same movement 106-50-6. (# 632164).
Probably your watch dates to around 1959-1960.
It seems clear they were still using the 106-50-6 in Besançon until late in the 1950's.
Are there any production dates mentioned for that caliber in Roessler's book?


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## Gombrich

Thanks SV. Yes, it's late and I am clearly losing brain power.

Dave


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## D N Ravenna

No matter the age, I really like the looks of that movement. Thanks for sharing!
Dan


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## RogerinBrighton

Hans61 said:


> I asked Zenith about Besancon. They can not help.
> All documents were destroyed.
> 
> So we have to help ourself.
> Who can benefit from the design details to draw conclusions about the time of production?
> Please add your watches.
> 
> Sorry, just managed to delete the images from your original posting by mistake
> 
> This has just come to me from America. It looks to be the same movement as your 85828 and mine is stamped 86589. Hard to tell if mine has been converted - I assume so as it has a double back, the outer lid being stamped 589830. Also, as the crown is now on the side, that sits the second hand in the same place as your movement and I assume that as mine is faced as a regulateur, there is an additional complication to drive the hour display at 12 o'clock. Unfortunately, the face on mine has been very over restored - shiny and plastic looking although under a loupe you can see slight crazing in the original enamel. Btw, I am a total amateur collector as you can probably tell by now so my apologies for anything I have got wrong. The watch keeps excellent time - +/- 10 seconds a day at worst which is remarkable given it's age.


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## LouS

Roger,

I don't know how to put it tactfully, but that dial is not a restoration but a fabrication. My bet is it originated in the Ukraine or one of the former soviet republics, and started life as a pocket watch as you surmise. Ebay is full of these of assorted manufactures and more or less whimsical dials. The movement does appear to be a Zenith however. Somebody more expert can tell you whether it started life as a regulateur or whether that is the result of some fiddling in the part of the person who created this. Given the exposed screw-head at the pinion of the hour hand, I expect the latter.


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## RogerinBrighton

To both Lous and D n, my thanks. It's a funny feeling when you open a watch sent over an auction site. This one felt 50% right and 50% wrong. The movement look right and the dial looked totally wrong. It was supposed to be from a Miami dealer who's service phone is now dead, and the links lead you (after much research today) to a Russian website. My guess is that the movement is 100% and I love the bph sound. LouS, my watchmaker dealer picked up on exactly the same point, well spotted if you are both right, which I am sure you are. So the question is. I have a lovely 1923 Besancon case and movement, signed, serial numbers right and keeping great time, but with a dial that looks like a reject from Sekonda on a bad day. I love the sound, the accuracy, the history of the watch itself but I can't live with the dial. How do I salvage this? Do I just ask the dealer for the $70 shipping and refund fees and send it back? I have adopted it in my heart and for a case and movement that is 83 years old, I can't just send it back to Miami where I know it will be junked.  Your comments are really, honestly appreciated. Thank you, Rog.er


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## Hans61

The case is perhaps old, but the lugs are not old, I think.
Please show pictures of the inside of the backside.


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## LouS

If you think you have a reasonable chance of getting a refund, send it back and start over. It'll be easier that trying to find a dial to fit this, and undoing whatever Dr. Frankenwatch did to make this a regulateur. Just be sure this guy is going to give you your money back - people who sell these kinds of concoctions are not known for their business integrity.


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## D N Ravenna

LouS said:


> If you think you have a reasonable chance of getting a refund, send it back and start over. It'll be easier that trying to find a dial to fit this, and undoing whatever Dr. Frankenwatch did to make this a regulateur. Just be sure this guy is going to give you your money back - people who sell these kinds of concoctions are not known for their business integrity.


I'd have to go with LouS on this one.

Then again, you know what you have. If you like it and want to keep it, I see nothing wrong with that. It's your watch Roger. It's your choice.

Good luck!

Dan


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## RogerinBrighton

Hans61 said:


> The case is perhaps old, but the lugs are not old, I think.
> Please show pictures of the inside of the backside.


Sorry about the quality of the 3rd pic, my camera is bad at macro. The numbers on both backs match at 589830 and there is a service scratch mark? on the edge of the outer back that reads 11X167RKyt


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## sempervivens

sempervivens said:


> ...Zenith Besançon also had separate serial numbers on the caseback. (Here also, it seems that in Besançon they never reached a million...).


They did reach a million.

Here is an example of a late Zenith Besançon watch with case n° 1005236 (movt. cal. 2532 with serial 789133):

View attachment 1012466
View attachment 1012467
View attachment 1012468


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## watch1440

Hi,
3 years after joining, my first post .

I know this is an old thread but...
This thread might be important to pocket watch collectors so here is my Zenith Besançon, serial 30302.
It is working.
On the back cover, it is marked as serviced twice: 
13.12.38 
4.30
Someone loved it many years ago.

The more will post their Zenith Besançon's serials the better the database will be...


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## sempervivens

Good idea, not much data around for these. It's interesting that they started with such a high case number right from the beginning: 500.000? Who knows where the movement numbers began: 20.000 or perhaps 30.000? Yours is certainly among the oldest I've seen.


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## watch1440

sempervivens said:


> Good idea, not much data around for these. It's interesting that they started with such a high case number right from the beginning: 500.000? Who knows where the movement numbers began: 20.000 or perhaps 30.000? Yours is certainly among the oldest I've seen.


|>


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## yourturn.id

Guys pls help me to know production year of this piece, thank you...

Zenith Fabrication Française at Besançon factory in France 
Watch with:
Movt. cal: 18.28.1.P.E 
Serial no: 74784
Case no: 581732


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## sempervivens

Very nice, but we can't tell the exact production year. 

Maybe if Silke steps in, she can date it based on the style and movement.

Based on the numbers, and to take a stab at it, I think it dates to ca. 1927/28.

It looks like it is in amazing condition for a 90 year old!


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## SilkeN

I agree with the dating maybe a few years younger. This style was used formaly within the 1930'ies but 1927 is as well possible than 1943. Until now I don't know what P.E. in the kaliber term exactly means. May be it is assosiated to the french production and the design with chatons. nickel plating and stripes of geneve. 
I didn't know this thread until now but I'll look in my stock and search for smal serial numbers of watches younger than born 1924 . Maybe I can found something even if the most of my watches are older. 

Regards Silke


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## SilkeN

Here I found some I guess:







movement 155089 kal. 18-28-1 A with case number: 846604 Argentan or nickel ??? Quite moden with self compensive spiral, "jumping" back- and dustmetallcover the watch on the right side
movement 142660 kal. 18-28-1 A with case number: 727452 Argentan

with very nice faces  :








Both I would date probably later then 1940. Because of the modern balance the one on the right side should be younger. Unforunately I kew more about the older ones.

Regards Silke


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## probep

I think that some Zenith wrist watches with cal. 2522, 2532, 2542 etc. were also manufactured in Besancon.
For example, cal. 2522, s/n 758702
















or cal. 2542C, s/n 848495


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## SilkeN

Very nice wathes and the movement numbers are completely "out of the row" so it must be Besancon . 
In between I'd opened now some watches and all I found are two other pocket watches with the stamped Caliber 18-28-1 PE :









Movement number: 94505 and a nickel chrome case number: 1604250 (Fabrication francaise)
Movement Number: 78806 with real steel case: 576665 (the art deco one)

Here they are: 








regards Silke


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## sempervivens

probep said:


> I think that some Zenith wrist watches with cal. 2522, 2532, 2542 etc. were also manufactured in Besancon.
> For example, cal. 2522, s/n 758702
> 
> or cal. 2542C, s/n 848495


Yes, that's correct (and very nice watches). Do you also know the case numbers?


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## sempervivens

SilkeN said:


> Here they are:
> View attachment 10667658
> 
> 
> regards Silke


Nice,that last one is close in serial number and the style also looks a lot like the one posted by yourturn.id.


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## SilkeN

Yes sempervivens you're right. Unfortunately I'm not able to enclose the dating by fashion facts. Since the mid of the twenties everything seems to be allowed and mixed. There are just little hints.The very minimalistic bauhaus style you see with the 18-28-1 A calibers starts usually in the 1940. So I think this was their aera. A friend of mine has a complete simular one than mine 18-28-1 A (on the right side of the pic. - his movement number 156292 and case 841203) he think also about the early 1940 ties.
You also could buy classic email or playfully design sell in the 19430 ties. The 18-28-1 PE movements seems to be about 1o- 15 years older but I'm not sure. Two coloured metaldials without singel "Indexletters" on top usually get commun in the 1930 ties but I don't know an exact date. I guess your numbers help more. 

Regards Silke


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## probep

sempervivens said:


> Yes, that's correct (and very nice watches). Do you also know the case numbers?


Yes, I do:

Cal. 2522:









Cal. 2542C:


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## sempervivens

Excellent, thanks a lot. 

Here also, can't tell the exact production year, but based on the numbers I would estimate ca. 1964 for your cal 2522 and 1969 for the cal 2542C.


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## yourturn.id

sempervivens said:


> Very nice, but we can't tell the exact production year.
> 
> Maybe if Silke steps in, she can date it based on the style and movement.
> 
> Based on the numbers, and to take a stab at it, I think it dates to ca. 1927/28.
> 
> It looks like it is in amazing condition for a 90 year old!


Thanks for info, it's in very very nice condition


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## yourturn.id

SilkeN said:


> I agree with the dating maybe a few years younger. This style was used formaly within the 1930'ies but 1927 is as well possible than 1943. Until now I don't know what P.E. in the kaliber term exactly means. May be it is assosiated to the french production and the design with chatons. nickel plating and stripes of geneve.
> I didn't know this thread until now but I'll look in my stock and search for smal serial numbers of watches younger than born 1924 . Maybe I can found something even if the most of my watches are older.
> 
> Regards Silke


Thanks Silke... Amazing knowledge about it... 
That is my only pocket watch ... is it still valuable right now?

Sent from my LG-K430 using Tapatalk


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## SilkeN

The demand for pocket watches is very low. The price gab between one and the same quality of movement in a wristwatch and a pocketwatch is huge. You've a pocketwatch in an excellent condition and a nice quality finished movement of a well known company. But its not really a rare collectors item. I don't know your courency but just look in ebay -> finished listenings -> sold articles and I guess you'll find some quite simlar Zenith pocket watches in top condition. Please don't look at "buy it now" offers. There are many dreamers outside.

Regards Silke


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## roeby99

SilkeN said:


> The demand for pocket watches is very low. The price gab between one and the same quality of movement in a wristwatch and a pocketwatch is huge. You've a pocketwatch in an excellent condition and a nice quality finished movement of a well known company. But its not really a rare collectors item. I don't know your courency but just look in ebay -> finished listenings -> sold articles and I guess you'll find some quite simlar Zenith pocket watches in top condition. Please don't look at "buy it now" offers. There are many dreamers outside.
> 
> Regards Silke


Thanks SilkeN


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## pitu

Hi! I've read this topic and learned a lot about Besancon watches. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Just for the record, I also have a pocket watch from Zenith Besancon, rather low number: 15953.









Best regards
pitu


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## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing, very interesting. That is indeed the lowest recorded serial number for a Zenith Besançon pocket watch so far. Does it have a case number as well? Some more pictures would also be interesting, to see what this old chap looks like.


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## probep

Sorry, a wrong post.


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## Herold

sempervivens said:


> and another company in Besançon in 1923.


Maybe here is a generally mistake in the Zenith history. Of course I also know sources which calling 1923 as the year, when Zenith opened a factory in Besancon. (For example Roessler an Joel Duval) 
But Duval has written about a NEW factory in Besancon. That could implies, that there was a factory before 1923, which was modernized an opened its gates in 1923 AGAIN.

However ist was, I bought an original newspaper advertise from Zenith. And these advertise dates to 8. decembre of 1915. So Zenith was active very much earlier in Besancon I think.


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## sempervivens

Interesting advertisement.


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## Hartmut Richter

Now that is an impressive finding. Just the sort of research that's needed to patch up the gaps in even the companies themselves about their own history. Looks very much like you are correct. The big question would then be: when *did* Zenith start in Besancon?

Hartmut Richter


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## SilkeN

I don't know the answer either but I think a quite long wile earlier. Joel wrote that in 1885 Jacot started to establish work shops outside the bounderys of Le Locle to race up his production rate. A lot of reasons recommendet Besancon for one of those locations. 
1. The region Neuchatel imports a lot of watchparts and cases from the region around Besancon since several decades
2. It's a traditional watchmaking place and therefore a lot of horologist live there
3. It's just around 50 km far away and in another country which is an interesting market
4. Especially the simple inexpensive Diogenes line with cylinder escapement and argentan case you mainly find nowadays in ebay.fr . (build around 1890) without a M mark and I can't help myself they have something "french" and would be my candidate for maily outsourced
5. I read anywhere, as the shop was closed in Paris since it was unprofitable (I've 1909 in my mind but I'm not sure) the shop in Besancon still excits.

Maybe the border between "work shop", "big workshop", "workshop cluster" and factory is fluent and 1924 a new factory was build. Unfortunately I've just my stomach and my thoughts without any evidence. Maybe not complete all parts were build there but I think outsourced work to Besacon is most likely happen before 1900.

Regards Silke


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## probep

Zenith table alarm clock, caliber RLZ, brass case.
The movement s/n and the case s/n are identical.
I think it was made in ca. 1930 at Zenith's french factory in Besançon.


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## georges zaslavsky

probep said:


> Zenith table alarm clock, caliber RLZ, brass case.
> The movement s/n and the case s/n are identical.
> I think it was made in ca. 1930 at Zenith's french factory in Besançon.
> 
> View attachment 13980891
> 
> 
> View attachment 13980893
> 
> 
> View attachment 13980895


Very nice zenith ,thanks for sharing


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## SilkeN

I pick up a small "bull neck" made in Besancon just because I like it:









I'm not sure about the aera this case form was popular. Depending on the dial and the nickel chromed case I would astimate the 1930 ties.









Nothing special and typical for Besancon with a bid other form of the stud holder and I guess nearly always with pressed chatons. Movementnumber: 17599 .Surrprisingly the case Nr. 528557 was a "Importe de swiss"









By the way I'm still looking for evidence of Zenith's activities before 1923 in Besancon. Here I found something about a trip Zenith has organized for its French dealers:









My french is aunty google. I understand that Besancon was at least one of the goals where watchmakers were shown something beside Locle, Neuchartel, Pontarlier and Geneve. Unfortunately, that could all have been. So I keep on looking.

Regards Silke


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## sempervivens

Among the oldest I have seen from Besançon. The marking 'importé de Suisse' was still normal then. I would estimate: 1920's.


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## SilkeN

THank you sempervivens. This would match with the dial better. Within the 1930 ties they turmed to metal dials in smaler pocket watches but I always thought Chromnickel for cases comes up within the 30 ties. Learned something new .

REgards Silke


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## Herold

I've found a new note for activities of Zenith in Besancon before 1923:









Found in an Austria newspaper.
The article from 2. June 1917 reports the death of Georges Favre Jacot.
But also it reports, that the founder of Zenith at the beginning of world war I his workshops in France set up for producing war material. So maybe we talk about 1914 or earlier for starting activities in France?

Regards,
Herold


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## SilkeN

It does not seem to be pure sales outlets. The display of watches on weapons and ammunition to make it makes little sense to me.Moreover, according to the neutrality law of Switzerland, it was not allowed to produce complete weapons for the warriors. This was done by making individual components for both sides depending on the companie.The goods were then declared to have been declared e.g. as copperware = ammunition pods.

Regards Silke


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## watch1440

SilkeN said:


> Please don't look at "buy it now" offers. There are many dreamers outside.
> 
> Regards Silke


That's for sure b-)


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## watch1440

pitu said:


> Hi! I've read this topic and learned a lot about Besancon watches. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Just for the record, I also have a pocket watch from Zenith Besancon, rather low number: 15953.
> 
> View attachment 11441906
> 
> 
> Best regards
> pitu


Wow, nice and clean


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## watch1440

SilkeN said:


> I'm not sure about the aera this case form was popular. Depending on the dial and the nickel chromed case I would astimate the 1930 ties.
> 
> View attachment 14046239
> 
> 
> Nothing special and typical for Besancon with a bid other form of the stud holder and I guess nearly always with pressed chatons. Movementnumber: 17599 .Surrprisingly the case Nr. 528557 was a "Importe de swiss"
> 
> View attachment 14046271
> 
> 
> By the way I'm still looking for evidence of Zenith's activities before 1923 in Besancon. Here I found something about a trip Zenith has organized for its French dealers:
> 
> View attachment 14046281
> 
> 
> My french is aunty google. I understand that Besancon was at least one of the goals where watchmakers were shown something beside Locle, Neuchartel, Pontarlier and Geneve. Unfortunately, that could all have been. So I keep on looking.
> 
> Regards Silke


I think this is the lowest serial we've seen here.


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## Hartmut Richter

Plus: an even lower serial number than the one a little bit further down in the thread! b-)

Hartmut Richter


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## probep

Maybe it's usefull for dating Zenith watches from Besançon.
Vintage Zenith cal 106-6, 1955 or just before (look at the case back),
Movement s/n - 569802
Case s/n - 748910


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## sempervivens

Interesting. I had notes for a similar watch with somewhat older movement 557878 and case number 731929, and the same inscription. These should both date to 1954/1955. Thx!


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## probep

Did Zenith's factory in Besançon make watch cases at the beginning? I doubt it. I've seen some watches with small movement s/n - all have cases imported from Switzerland.

Some examples:

1.

























2.

























3. Look at https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-besancon-469750-3.html#post36036954

4. See https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-besancon-469750-5.html#post48633929


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## sempervivens

Correct. All the oldest cases seem to mention 'importé de Suisse ' or 'fab. suisse'. The case numbers however may have been added locally.


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## probep

About 'Extract from the Registers' - Does Zenith send any info on watches made by Zenith's subsidiary in Besançon?


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## sempervivens

I don't think Zenith Le Locle has any info on the movement numbers (nor case numbers) for watches made by Zenith Besançon


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## ena63

This is my great-great-grandfather's watch.














Serial number on the movement is quite low: 10038
Serial number of the watch is 504814
Works like a charm...


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## sempervivens

ena63 said:


> This is my great-great-grandfather's watch.
> View attachment 15613020
> View attachment 15613021
> 
> 
> Serial number on the movement is quite low: 10038
> Serial number of the watch is 504814
> Works like a charm...


That is the oldest watch from Besançon I've seen so far. Thanks for sharing!


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## Awa7

Hello everyone.
This is my Zenith ladies watch. Thanks to you, I know that it was made in France, because the number has 6 digits. My number is 852 412, I guess it's from the 70's. Could someone confirm that? It's beautiful.


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## sempervivens

Hi there and welcome to the forum. Looks like it is in gold; and the Besançon gold watches only had 5 digits. So this was made in Switzerland, as is also confirmed by the dial 'swiss made'. The swiss case number for gold watches dates it to ca. 1960. It could be in 14 or 18 K gold, do you know what it is? and what is the diameter? Hope this helps.


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## Awa7

sempervivens said:


> Hi there and welcome to the forum. Looks like it is in gold; and the Besançon gold watches only had 5 digits. So this was made in Switzerland, as is also confirmed by the dial 'swiss made'. The swiss case number for gold watches dates it to ca. 1960. It could be in 14 or 18 K gold, do you know what it is? and what is the diameter? Hope this helps.


Thank you
This is solud gold 18 k. 
The size of the envelope is approx. 18 mm without the crown


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## sempervivens

Very nice! Thank you for posting.


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to Watchuseek! That is a nice watch with a Cal. 57-8-6:





__





bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Zenith 57.8-6







www.ranfft.de





...and the movement serial number is under the balance. If it is 5212xxx (as it looks), the movement ought to be from 1962.

Hartmut Richter


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## Awa7

Hartmut Richter said:


> Welcome to Watchuseek! That is a nice watch with a Cal. 57-8-6:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Zenith 57.8-6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ranfft.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and the movement serial number is under the balance. If it is 5212xxx (as it looks), the movement ought to be from 1962.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thank you you are great. That's right, that's the number. I didn't know the number was hidden inside. I thought it was 70's French because it has 6 numbers on the envelope. It was a mistake. Thank you again and best regards.
Awa


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## Wayneyapwy

I bought a zenith gold watch that has no swiss made printed on the dial. However, the number on the movement is 7 digit. Is this possible since Besancon zeniths has 6 digits?


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## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith. I can't really see the 7 digit number, what is it? 
In any case it is a fully Swiss made Zenith. Since it has 25 jewels it must be an early cal. 2542 PC produced ca. 1965 (or else the cal. 2532 PC with 30 jewels was replaced during service).
There are two possible explanations for the missing 'swiss made' on the dial: either it is hidden under the glass ring, or else it is a redial (repainted dial).


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## Hartmut Richter

It is visible in one picture but it looks as if it starts with a zero (0122296) which would fit in with Besancon. Nice watch!

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

I see it now, the first number must be a 6, I then read 6122265, which confirms production ca. 1965.


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## Dairygold

Are these watches commonly known or are these mostly for enthusiasts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wayneyapwy

sempervivens said:


> Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Zenith. I can't really see the 7 digit number, what is it?
> In any case it is a fully Swiss made Zenith. Since it has 25 jewels it must be an early cal. 2542 PC produced ca. 1965 (or else the cal. 2532 PC with 30 jewels was replaced during service).
> There are two possible explanations for the missing 'swiss made' on the dial: either it is hidden under the glass ring, or else it is a redial (repainted dial).


Thanks for the information. Maybe tha answer to the missing swiss made will be revealed during the next servicing. As for now, it remains a mystery.


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## Wayneyapwy

Hartmut Richter said:


> It is visible in one picture but it looks as if it starts with a zero (0122296) which would fit in with Besancon. Nice watch!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thank you for your compliments!


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