# New personal project - P-51 the pilot watch



## utzelu

Hi all,

I have started a new personal project for a pilot watch. This will be based mostly on of-the-shelf movement, case and strap and a custom dial. The purpose of the project is to learn about making dials.

These are the specs so far:

Movement is an automatic STP 1-11.
Case is a Parnis version of a Tudor Black Bay 41 Heritage - the case measures 40 mm without crown.
The dial is my own design inspired by the P-51 Mustang plane. Being a military pilot watch, the dial won't be very original. I will make the dial blank and paint it black. Then the artwork will be printed by a professional, in white (currently he is constrained to a single color printing).
Hands - I have few different styles I got from various sources but I am still undecided on the design.

Currently I am at the stage of mock-ing the watch with all the parts. I wanted to ask for your opinion about the overall design - do the dial and case have a cohesive design fit for the military theme? The case is too much polished IMO and would benefit from a black cerakote coating or at least from bead blasting to reduce the shine.

Mock-up using a low res printing on paper








Dial artwork








Thanks,
DanP


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## Medusa

I realize there is a thin line between a serious watch and novelty but as a fan of watches and the P-51, I would like to see subtle elements of the airplane worked into to the watch design. I know aviation instruments were black and white at the time but I would not mind seeing a bit of color. Not over the top or anything, but P-51's, especially the ones with nose art were a tad colorful; none were black and white.


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## PeterK.

I will look for P51 silhouette or vector file and place that on dial under p51 and erase the automatic ,triangle and circle,
you will have something different not another run of the mill pilot watch, but that is my opinion you do what you like.


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## utzelu

You are definitely right about the color and the initial version had colored and luminous numerals and hour markers, but the person that will print the dial cannot print in colors or even in more than one color. So for now I am restricted in what I can do at a reasonable price.

Original colored version








Inspiration








The goal with this watch is to make a pleasantly aesthetic desk-pilot watch that I'd like to wear without being too original and to learn the dial manufacturing process.

Thanks,
DanP



Medusa said:


> I realize there is a thin line between a serious watch and novelty but as a fan of watches and the P-51, I would like to see subtle elements of the airplane worked into to the watch design. I know aviation instruments were black and white at the time but I would not mind seeing a bit of color. Not over the top or anything, but P-51's, especially the ones with nose art were a tad colorful; none were black and white.


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## utzelu

Thanks Peter for your feedback. I understand the dial is not very original as the military/pilot watches are all following a standard layout. I will try slightly different designs as you suggested and see what it looks like.



PeterK. said:


> I will look for P51 silhouette or vector file and place that on dial under p51 and erase the automatic ,triangle and circle,
> you will have something different not another run of the mill pilot watch, but that is my opinion you do what you like.


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## Ajaccio

Hi Utzelu,

I agree that you should remove the Automatic from the dial.

And why not add the profile of the P-51 plane on it :







Or something similar.


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## utzelu

Is there any reason why you guys don't like the AUTOMATIC text on the dial? I thought it would be funny to add it on a pilot/military watch, since they usually don't have it. But this is going to be a desk-pilot watch, so the AUTOMATIC text kind of "dresses-up" the watch from a pure military to a more casual aesthetic.


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## dspt

personally I agree that AUTOMATIC should be on the dial, if the movt is automatic. No need to remove it
the only thing I find dubious about the dial is extra zeros. you inspirational altimeter doesn't have them. And while extra zeros with positive numbers are ok to balance the dial, double zero instead of twelve is way too weird. You can have a big triangle, or 12 or single 0, or P-51 there...
also, you where asking about the case/dial cohesive design. I don't think it is. The case is generic enough to match almost anything you can put on the dial, so it's not a bad combination. It's just the case lacks any "pilot" DNA. I'd search for something with slimmer bezel and bigger crown.


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## utzelu

Thanks for your feedback. Regarding the extra zeros, I agree it is weird to have "00" but somehow I find it interesting. I tried other options, having 12 instead just looks dull and a triangle is just the norm with all the other watches. Remember, this is not a pure aviator watch but a dressier, contemporary version of a pilot watch. This is something I can wear in office with a shirt and during weekends with a t-shirt.

I also agree with the case, it is not really suitable for a pilot watch but is is versatile enough and more important is the right size for me. I wanted a watch in 40-41 mm and the available pilot cases on the market are bigger than that. I am still looking for alternatives though. The case would probably be bead blasted to get a matte finish.

I have also updated the dial design a bit and I think the latest iteration looks and integrates better with the case. I have two versions, with or without the central sub-dial circle. On both versions I added 1940 just above the AUTOMATIC text. This is the year the P51 plane was created and for some reason it gives the dial a more elegant look. Which version do you like more?















Thanks,
DanP



dspt said:


> the only thing I find dubious about the dial is extra zeros. you inspirational altimeter doesn't have them. And while extra zeros with positive numbers are ok to balance the dial, double zero instead of twelve is way too weird. You can have a big triangle, or 12 or single 0, or P-51 there...
> also, you where asking about the case/dial cohesive design. I don't think it is. The case is generic enough to match almost anything you can put on the dial, so it's not a bad combination. It's just the case lacks any "pilot" DNA. I'd search for something with slimmer bezel and bigger crown.


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## utzelu

After much though I decided to try another case, better suited for a pilot watch. There is not much choice on the market but I found a case from Ickler (http://www.german-watch-shop.com/wa...se-steel-/-polished-brushed-/-39mm-/-eta-2824) on their website. It has a 39 mm diameter and takes a bigger dial than the one I designed (34 mm vs 31.2 mm). It is quite expensive at €190 but according to feedbacks it has an excellent quality.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dspt

add a different crown and you are gold!


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## utzelu

Do you mean a different crown on this case?

I still have my own doubts about the case style, mostly related to the bezel, which is too thick and tall. From some angles, the case looks like a diver case. So I am still looking for alternative cases in the 39-41 mm range.

I made a new version of the dial fit for the 39 mm Ickler case. It kind of changes the character of the watch, making it more modern. Gone is the 00 marker. The hands are loosely modeled based on 8.0 x 13 mm handset available to purchase from various sources.









Thanks,
DanP



dspt said:


> add a different crown and you are gold!


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## dspt

yes, I meant different crown for this case. crowns are often interchangeable (of course with some restrictions: type, stem size etc). visiting any watchmaker will give you access to his/her stash of assorted crowns, harvested form broken watches or bought as spares. I think a pilot watch would suit a slightly oversized crown


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## Medusa

Looks good. The P51 font is perfect.


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## utzelu

Thanks for your feedback. I ordered an Ickler 39 mm case and hope to get it soon. In the meantime, I will look for suitable crowns as the one supplied with the case seems ordinary and small. I am even contemplating machining an original one, if I cannot find on the market.


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## Ajaccio

Hi Utzelu,

Markings as "Automatic", "Tourbillon", "Superlative chronometer" and so on are my pet peeve.

I like my dials to be as "clean" as possible, with as little text as possible.

One reason is the following : What's the use of putting "Automatic" on the dial ? What does it add or bring to the watch ? I guess as you made the watch, you know that you have an automatic movement.
I can't imagine someone wondering : "Hum ... Is my watch quartz or auto ? Oh yes ! Automatic, it's written on the dial ! Phew, lucky it's written there..."

But again, it's my pet peeve, and I'm perfectly OK that most people don't share my ideas.


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## utzelu

Hi Ajaccio,

Thanks for your feedback. I guess the reason why I added it is that I want my watch to look as "factory made" as possible. Also I think it balances the dial on the vertical axis, on top there is the name of the watch and on the bottom the AUTOMATIC text. But to answer your comment, I guess there is a reason why all the manufacturers write AUTOMATIC on their dials.

Regards,
DanP



Ajaccio said:


> Hi Utzelu,
> 
> Markings as "Automatic", "Tourbillon", "Superlative chronometer" and so on are my pet peeve.
> 
> I like my dials to be as "clean" as possible, with as little text as possible.
> 
> One reason is the following : What's the use of putting "Automatic" on the dial ? What does it add or bring to the watch ? I guess as you made the watch, you know that you have an automatic movement.
> I can't imagine someone wondering : "Hum ... Is my watch quartz or auto ? Oh yes ! Automatic, it's written on the dial ! Phew, lucky it's written there..."
> 
> But again, it's my pet peeve, and I'm perfectly OK that most people don't share my ideas.


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## RichardVal

I like your project. Any particular reason you brought back the minute numbers? Thought it was very neat-looking without them. How did you obtain the font for the hour numbers?


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## utzelu

Thanks Richard,

The second version of the dial has minutes numbers because I chose to use a different case, which requires a larger dial. As I didn't want to enlarge the hour numerals, I had to fill in the available space. I could just space out the hour numerals and seconds markers but I am not sure it would look good. One thing I really don't like on the available pilot watches on the market is that the markings on the dial are just to bold and big. On my project, I was looking for a smaller case (39-40 mm) so larger numbers and text would not look good. In any case I am still in design phase and will try different versions until will be satisfied.

Regarding the fonts, all are from the net. There are tons of free fonts available for download.

DanP


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## utzelu

So, a little update. I received the case today and I must say it is very good indeed. The size is almost perfect (39 mm), it would have been even better at 40 mm, but nevertheless it is quite appropriate for my wrist. The crown is generic so I'd need to find something better and a bit bigger.

I did a test fit of the dial mock and will need to do some adjustments. I think I need to update the design a bit too and probably expand the numbers and markers a bit as there is too much empty space near the dial's edge. I may get rid of the minutes numbers, or not.

Photos:














Regards,
DanP


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## PeterK.

Here is one I found on internet.









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## utzelu

Thanks Peter,
I believe mine would be a much different homage than the one above  Mine would not be as sporty as that one, it would be smaller and suitable to wear with smart casual outfit.


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## utzelu

Another update: I refined further the dial design and reverted back to the original version. The hour numerals were increased in size, the date window is now round instead of oval, so it mimics the 0 in front of the 3. I also added back the 0 digit (now bigger) at 12 o'clock. This is to keep true to the original P-51 instruments design and not have another standard pilot or IWC clone. The hands design is just a mock I did in a hurry, I did not add the second hand yet. Using of-the-shelf hands will be problematic as the ones I found online are not really of the length and style I need. Currently the hour hand is 8.5 mm long (center to tip) and the minute hand is 15.5 mm long. Second hand should be either 15.5 or 16 mm.









Thanks for watching,
DanP


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## RichardVal

Makes a lot of sense!

So did you find this font by trail-and-error then or did you have a way to match it with the P-51? Any chance you can point me to some websites? Thanks!



utzelu said:


> Thanks Richard,
> 
> The second version of the dial has minutes numbers because I chose to use a different case, which requires a larger dial. As I didn't want to enlarge the hour numerals, I had to fill in the available space. I could just space out the hour numerals and seconds markers but I am not sure it would look good. One thing I really don't like on the available pilot watches on the market is that the markings on the dial are just to bold and big. On my project, I was looking for a smaller case (39-40 mm) so larger numbers and text would not look good. In any case I am still in design phase and will try different versions until will be satisfied.
> 
> Regarding the fonts, all are from the net. There are tons of free fonts available for download.
> 
> DanP


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## RichardVal

I think it works out very well with the increased hour numbers! For me the 0 seems a bit out of touch with the rest of the numbers as these are all double digit. I feel the 12 o'clock position is the most important on the watch, but now that position kind of gets over-shadowed by the 11 and 01. I thought the 00 was a pretty creative solution, but a 12 I think will also work better than just a 0. Anyway, my personal opinion 

Good luck, following with interest!



utzelu said:


> Another update: I refined further the dial design and reverted back to the original version. The hour numerals were increased in size, the date window is now round instead of oval, so it mimics the 0 in front of the 3. I also added back the 0 digit (now bigger) at 12 o'clock. This is to keep true to the original P-51 instruments design and not have another standard pilot or IWC clone. The hands design is just a mock I did in a hurry, I did not add the second hand yet. Using of-the-shelf hands will be problematic as the ones I found online are not really of the length and style I need. Currently the hour hand is 8.5 mm long (center to tip) and the minute hand is 15.5 mm long. Second hand should be either 15.5 or 16 mm.
> 
> View attachment 12816361
> 
> 
> Thanks for watching,
> DanP


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## utzelu

Thank for your opinion Richard. It is the reason I am sharing the project with the WUS community. I am not a professional designer, but I was always excited about designing things and about the aesthetics. For me the function follows the form 

The idea behind using the double digits is to mimic the military time where 12 o'clock midnight is referred to as 0000 and so on. However, after I added the 00 and the triangles, I thought it looks too much like a pair of eyes staring at me  so I kind of accepted the criticism of others commenting on the thread. I also like the idea of using 00 and will try a version with it and hopefully, get rid of the "staring eyes" 



RichardVal said:


> For me the 0 seems a bit out of touch with the rest of the numbers as these are all double digit. I feel the 12 o'clock position is the most important on the watch, but now that position kind of gets over-shadowed by the 11 and 01. I thought the 00 was a pretty creative solution, but a 12 I think will also work better than just a 0. Anyway, my personal opinion
> 
> Good luck, following with interest!


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## utzelu

Some more updates: did a bit more refinement on the dial and brought back the "00" at 12 o'clock. Slowly I am getting there, where I am happy with how it looks like. I am now focusing on the hands as this is where I have a challenge. Due to the design of the dial, the minute hands needs to have 15 mm in length (measured from tip to center of hole). I could not find any suitable 3rd party hands set that meets my aesthetic and size criteria. It's always one or the other  I feel the compromising on the hands would not do the dial justice so I am now thinking to make them from scratch. One idea is to photo-etch them in either brass or nickel silver 0.2 to 0.3 mm sheet. But first I need to decide on the design and so far I kind of like the simple ones you see below. But they still need further refining.

Photos:








Thanks,
DanP


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## RichardVal

Cool to see you brought back the 00  On the hands, I am sorry to say I liked the previous style better. The different sections of lume seem odd to me. Anyway, just my amateur opinion 

What websites have you used for looking for hands btw. In the past I've looked into this myself but found only very few and actually no pilot hands.



utzelu said:


> Some more updates: did a bit more refinement on the dial and brought back the "00" at 12 o'clock. Slowly I am getting there, where I am happy with how it looks like. I am now focusing on the hands as this is where I have a challenge. Due to the design of the dial, the minute hands needs to have 15 mm in length (measured from tip to center of hole). I could not find any suitable 3rd party hands set that meets my aesthetic and size criteria. It's always one or the other  I feel the compromising on the hands would not do the dial justice so I am now thinking to make them from scratch. One idea is to photo-etch them in either brass or nickel silver 0.2 to 0.3 mm sheet. But first I need to decide on the design and so far I kind of like the simple ones you see below. But they still need further refining.
> 
> Photos:
> View attachment 12819895
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> DanP


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## utzelu

RichardVal said:


> What websites have you used for looking for hands btw. In the past I've looked into this myself but found only very few and actually no pilot hands.


There is a decent variety out there for pilot hands. Starting with eBay and Ofrei, then Yobokies has few models, Cousins in UK and another online shop in Germany sk-watchparts.com. Unfortunately all options are not suitable for my dial.

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## RichardVal

Awesome, will check them out! Thanks!



utzelu said:


> There is a decent variety out there for pilot hands. Starting with eBay and Ofrei, then Yobokies has few models, Cousins in UK and another online shop in Germany sk-watchparts.com. Unfortunately all options are not suitable for my dial.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## utzelu

Another small update. I finally decided on the dial design. It is going to have 12 number instead of 00. I don't know why but for some reason I find it looks better. I also found a handset that will fit properly with the overall design and mocked it to see how it would look. I ordered few sets so will post another update when I get them.

The next step is to make the dial and here I have two options: chemical etching or machining. I am planning to make few dials just in case I mess it up so photo-etching makes more sense. I need to prepare the P/E sheet and contact a firm that can do it for me.

Will keep you updated but in the meantime the mandatory photo:









Regards,
DanP


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## utzelu

So, it's finally the time for some action. Since the dial design is pretty much finalized (more on that later) I have started making a dial blank.

Cutting from a 0.5 mm sheet of brass









Then turning it to the final size, 34.8 mm in diameter.









Moving to the mill for drilling holes for the central wheels, date window and dial feet.









And finally in the case, on top of the movement.









There is still work to do on the dial blank, to open up the center hole and dial hole to correct diameters, by broaching and solder the dial feet.

Speaking of the dial, I was playing a bit with colors and came up with two color variants. I like both of them.















Thanks for watching,
DanP


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## utzelu

I finally managed to finish the dial blank, after soldering the feet and opening the holes to final diameter. Unfortunately it looks like I missed the date window by a hair - it is a bit too much on the right and the date is not properly centered. I have probably made a mistake in measurements when drilling the hole. So this iteration is not good enough and will have to make another one. I will use the blank as a test for the painting.

Dial feet soldered in place.









Movement is now secured on the dial. It is a perfect fit.









And finally the "mistake" is revealed 









In any case, the whole process was very satisfying.

Regards,
DanP


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## utzelu

I looked again on the technical documentation of the STP1-11 movement and I think I found the error. The dial blank is actually correct, but it seems there are two options STP offers for the date opening, one rectangular (this is the regular version and the one I have) and the other option is for round date opening, for which my dial was designed for. It looks there is a slight difference of 0.2 mm in the date wheel positioning between the two versions. So I wrote an email to STP to get a confirmation.


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## utzelu

I received today the hands set and took a picture with them in the case. The dial was designed specifically for this hands style and size so they fit quite well.


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## utzelu

I have finished designing the crown for this watch. As I mentioned before, the crown will be bespoke. It will be a bit bigger, at 7 mm in diameter and hopefully I will be able to machine it in one piece. I will use two o-rings inside the crown, but the crown will not be a screw down since the case tube is plain.

Interior view of the crown.









Some general view of the crown and the rest of the watch. I didn't model the entire case, but only the cylindrical part, without the lugs and bezel.









Close view of the crown


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## dspt

that are some very fine threads (knurling) on the crown. considering the real size of it, they are close to the point of not providing any extra grip.
have you seen any crown with so many small treads lately on some real watch, have you tried turning it in a winding/setting fashion?


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## utzelu

The knurling on the crown is purely decoratively in the 3D model. Of course in reality it would be different. I will use straight knurling wheels with 125 teeth (80 TPI).



dspt said:


> that are some very fine threads (knurling) on the crown. considering the real size of it, they are close to the point of not providing any extra grip.
> have you seen any crown with so many small treads lately on some real watch, have you tried turning it in a winding/setting fashion?


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## utzelu

I finished machining the crown and it turned out pretty good. I made it in stainless steel although initially I considered it making it in brass. The inner groove was pretty challenging to machine and I had to grind three different cutting tools until I found the right one in terms of geometry and rigidity.

I am not sure yet if I should add knurling on the crown or leave it without. I like the appearance of the chrono pusher and I don't think the grip will be that bad without the knurls. I will decide later. Next will be to tap the threads in the stem tube, once I get a suitable tap.









































Thanks for watching,
DanP


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## Jeff Scott

Nice work. I would, however, add the knurling to the crown. It can be a pretty slippery world out there.


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## Chascomm

Knurl.


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## utzelu

Will definitely try adding knurled pattern once I get the right accessory.


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## utzelu

Currently testing different paints on the dial. I am trying to determine the right balance between thickness and consistency. This one is test dial and was painted with matte black.










I decided to outsource the manufacturing of the dial blanks and use photo etching. This way I can have more pieces to test different colors. The cost was quite good.

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## utzelu

Hi everybody,

I have been working for the past few days on a dial variation. I recon the current version is not very interesting in terms of design so I came up with a newer version. What do you think?









Thanks,
DanP


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## dspt

I think both new and older versions are fine, no favorites for me. You might want to play with spacing between digits in 10, 11, 12 marks in the latest iteration. Another small suggestion is matching "1940" font to the date disk font. 4 fonts is a bit too much for a minimalistic dial


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## Jeff Scott

utzelu said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I have been working for the past few days on a dial variation. I recon the current version is not very interesting in terms of design so I came up with a newer version. What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 12916169
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> DanP


Well, if your rendering in post #43 is the "current version", you are quite right! :-d


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## utzelu

Thanks for suggestions. I'll take the "no favorites" comment as "not really interesting"  And I am perfectly OK with that, since I am no professional, nor I intend to make a business out of it. The project is also a mean to learn different skills required to design and make a watch. My goal is that each new project will require me to learn a new skill. The P-51 is mainly about making the dial.

Back to your suggestions, I never thought about matching the date disk font. In fact, the font used for date is not really the one used on the actual movement. I'll need to check that. One other thing to improve would be to use a black date disk, but I don't know where to buy it other than STP directly. There is still some refinement to be done for both aesthetic and production reasons. With one offs, the cost of the dial will be higher than the rest of the watch.



dspt said:


> I think both new and older versions are fine, no favorites for me. You might want to play with spacing between digits in 10, 11, 12 marks in the latest iteration. Another small suggestion is matching "1940" font to the date disk font. 4 fonts is a bit too much for a minimalistic dial


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## utzelu

I've been updating the dial design for a while and wanted to share with you the latest version. The plane sketch needs a lot more refinement - this is just for testing the idea. What do you think?


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## utzelu

Got a surprise in the mail today, a freshly photo etched brass sheet with the dial blanks. Now I can really progress with the dial.










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## utzelu

Resurfacing an old thread. I had the project on hold for some time and recently I started working on it again. I refined further the dial design since I did not like the plane sketch and date in the 1:1 version (printed on the paper and glued on the dial blank). The dial was just too busy.

Below is the current design iteration, inside the actual case and with the hands just floating there). I removed the date and plane sketch to clean it up.


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## T1TactWatch

utzelu said:


> I've been updating the dial design for a while and wanted to share with you the latest version. The plane sketch needs a lot more refinement - this is just for testing the idea. What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 12936407
> View attachment 12936409


Swift updae! I really like the airplane design implementation


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## utzelu

T1TactWatch said:


> Swift updae! I really like the airplane design implementation


Well, it looks better on the computer image, but not very good on the actual watch. The dial is just too small and all the elements add up to clutter the dial. Remember that the case is 39mm in diameter and the displayable area on dial has a diameter shy under 34 mm.


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## walt hamm

I thought the oval window at the 3 o'clock position was a date window without the date in the initial drawing. I think the triangle for the minute hand looks better but it should it not point to the minute marker and not towards the center? Just my opinion.


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## utzelu

walt hamm said:


> I thought the oval window at the 3 o'clock position was a date window without the date in the initial drawing. I think the triangle for the minute hand looks better but it should it not point to the minute marker and not towards the center? Just my opinion.


That was the first iteration of the dial design and was meant for a different case. I discarded it eventually as it was too bland. You'll find the latest iteration in some of my recent posts and it looks completely different. I am currently discussing with various hobbyists around the world, which have the capability to print single dials. It is a long process as most of these people have lots of limitations and I need to decide which limitation is not a deal breaker and design the artwork around them. An interesting process anyway.


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## Karriope

An opportunity you're missing here is to make the date window a widened arc, like that of the inspirational altimeter.


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## utzelu

Karriope said:


> An opportunity you're missing here is to make the date window a widened arc, like that of the inspirational altimeter.


I thought about it too. IWCs has quite good implementation of this design. Although I haven't tried it, my concern is the position of the date window compared to the other design elements. This is strictly dictated by the movement (ETA 2824-2, STP 1-11 or Sellita SW200-1). The dial window will be a bit too much to the left side, compared with the hour numerals (see below the photos). And moving the numerals closer to the dial center would look bad, since the watch case is quite small at 39 mm in diameter. It would make the watch look even smaller than it is. I will give it a try though, out of curiosity. Thanks for the idea.


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## walt hamm

My bad. I thought the triangles were hour/minute markers in lieu of hands. My suggestion would be to eliminate the downward (diver?) triangle above the 12 and replace it with an upwards (pilot?) triangle. This would allow you to eliminate the upward triangle which is towards the center of the dial. I would eliminate the triangle at 3 and put the number 3--gives more balance.


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## utzelu

walt hamm said:


> My bad. I thought the triangles were hour/minute markers in lieu of hands. My suggestion would be to eliminate the downward (diver?) triangle above the 12 and replace it with an upwards (pilot?) triangle. This would allow you to eliminate the upward triangle which is towards the center of the dial. I would eliminate the triangle at 3 and put the number 3--gives more balance.


You can see the latest iteration of the dial in post #50, where there's no more date and I added the figure 3 instead. Also I used triangle markers at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock for some symmetry. I am trying to stay away from the norm of having a triangle facing upwards at 12 o'clock as is too common on aviator watches. Triangles should have a functional purpose and in this design they are guiding the eyes to the quarters (at least I hope).


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## Karriope

utzelu said:


> I thought about it too. IWCs has quite good implementation of this design. Although I haven't tried it, my concern is the position of the date window compared to the other design elements. This is strictly dictated by the movement (ETA 2824-2, STP 1-11 or Sellita SW200-1). The dial window will be a bit too much to the left side, compared with the hour numerals (see below the photos). And moving the numerals closer to the dial center would look bad, since the watch case is quite small at 39 mm in diameter. It would make the watch look even smaller than it is. I will give it a try though, out of curiosity. Thanks for the idea.


You don't have to move the date window, I'm just suggesting you change its shape to be similar to that of the P-51's. For example, see this Minase Divido:









If you don't mind or would like it, I can do my own interpretation of the dial later when I can.


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## utzelu

Sure, you can do your own interpretation, if you'd like. I am also curious about it.

Regarding the example you gave (Minase Divido), if you notice, the date window is not aligned with the hour indices (i.e. they are not aligned on the same imaginary circle). I have the same issue with my design and it bothers me. On my initial design (where I used 01, 02, etc. as hour numerals, it was working fine as the date window was taking the place of the 0 from 03 hour. But after I changed the hour fonts and got rid of the 0s, the date window positioning doesn't really work. And that isn't something I can change, except to remove it completely.



Karriope said:


> You don't have to move the date window, I'm just suggesting you change its shape to be similar to that of the P-51's. For example, see this Minase Divido:
> 
> If you don't mind or would like it, I can do my own interpretation of the dial later when I can.


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## Karriope

utzelu said:


> Sure, you can do your own interpretation, if you'd like. I am also curious about it.
> 
> Regarding the example you gave (Minase Divido), if you notice, the date window is not aligned with the hour indices (i.e. they are not aligned on the same imaginary circle). I have the same issue with my design and it bothers me. On my initial design (where I used 01, 02, etc. as hour numerals, it was working fine as the date window was taking the place of the 0 from 03 hour. But after I changed the hour fonts and got rid of the 0s, the date window positioning doesn't really work. And that isn't something I can change, except to remove it completely.


Could you remind me what is the dial size you're working with and the movement - is it still the STP11-1?
Also I'd quite appreciate if you could tell me the date window position (in mm from the center).

I'll take a stab at a P-51 meter inspired dial.

A suggestion I might have for you that I think might be actually more interesting than a P-51 silhouette would be to use the North American Aviation eagle. Maybe not the exact one for legal sake, but one similar to it.


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## utzelu

Karriope said:


> Could you remind me what is the dial size you're working with and the movement - is it still the STP11-1?
> Also I'd quite appreciate if you could tell me the date window position (in mm from the center).
> 
> I'll take a stab at a P-51 meter inspired dial.


Dial diameter is 34.7mm, while the date position is at 8.85mm from the dial center (the rectangular window is 2.7mm wide by 2mm height).

Below is what I could come up with


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## Karriope

utzelu said:


> Dial diameter is 34.7mm, while the date position is at 8.85mm from the dial center (the rectangular window is 2.7mm wide by 2mm height).
> 
> Below is what I could come up with
> 
> View attachment 13845449


Okay, that info's good. I'll see what I can come up with.


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## Karriope

here's my take. It's more directly intended to look like the altimeter you showed.









There's a chamfer around the date window which has some additional marking to resemble the submeter on the altimeter (I don't know how to read the thing though, honestly, so I can't fully work the whole original design of the altimeter in).
The seconds hand has a silhouette of the P-51 for a counterbalance (inaccurate rough one), though I made it too big, I would make it much smaller than that.


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## utzelu

Thanks for sharing your ideas.

Unfortunately I don’t have capabilities for making custom hands at this moment, so I will be using off the shelf ones, which I already bought.

In order to align the date to the numbers I’d have to make the numbers bigger and move closer to the center. While it may work (I need to try it) I think it will not look good on such a small dial. If the case was bigger (let’s say 42mm), this wouldn’t have been an issue as the dial would have been bigger.


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## utzelu

Karriope said:


> There's a chamfer around the date window which has some additional marking to resemble the submeter on the altimeter (I don't know how to read the thing though, honestly, so I can't fully work the whole original design of the altimeter in).


This feature is interesting actually. I will check if I can integrate it in my design and balance the whole date window with the 2 and 4 numerals. Thanks for the idea.


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## Karriope

utzelu said:


> This feature is interesting actually. I will check if I can integrate it in my design and balance the whole date window with the 2 and 4 numerals. Thanks for the idea.


You just made me realize I completely messed up and have the numerals wrong. I must be a lot more tired than I thought.

I used a font for the "P-51" similar to yours, not the same, since I wasn't sure the one you used originally. There are 11 marks between each of the thick lines on the recessed insert next to the date display (I thought of using 24 (as in 24 hours) but those would end up being very small so I thought they might be impractical).
I went with curved text for 1940 and AUTOMATIC, while 330 FEET is meant to resemble the unit markings of the original altimeter. I'm not sure what your water resistance rating is, 330 feet would be around 100m. A 1,000 ft watch would be a 300m water resistance. My handset is otherwise also based on the altimeter's hands, though I didn't model them thoroughly and with accurate height placements since I was focusing on the dial mainly. I didn't include the peripheral triangle, I'm not sure what those are for in the altimeter.

I also originally intended to use a minutes scale for the numerals (60, 05, 10, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55) as usually the thing for bomber planes (that said, the Mustang is usually a fighter), but I reasoned the original going from 0-9 meant the hour numerals were a better fit.

And of course, I made the dial two-toned like the original. The numeral font I chose is not exactly like the original but it's close, I think, save for the 4. And as I suggested earlier, I decided to put the NAA Eagle on the dial.
The model is with your specified 34.7mm dial and the date window is 8.85mm from the center. I think that position with my proportions works alright.

Edit: Fixed my numbering...









Edit again: Tweaked the size of the numerals and unified them into a condensed variant of the typeface to be more like the original altimeter (I somehow mixed them up originally) save for 12, which is now 0. Plus, a luminous rendering for fun.


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## utzelu

Since I was intrigued by @Karriope's idea and since I really like having a date (for me it is useful), I spent more time refining the dial design and ended up with this.









I am not sure yet about the triangles at 6 and 9 o'clock so I may remove them and replace with minutes numerals (30 and 45).

Also this is how it looks inside the watch case. Fortunately, my concerns about bringing the hour numerals closer to the center were unfounded and it doesn't make the watch appear smaller.







side by side with previous version


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## utzelu

Tweaked a bit more the design, with some ideas from Karriope 









I will need to check the feasibility of the design with the dial printer. I've got two options, with luminous hour indices (at 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 and 11 o'clock) and triangles (at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock) or without luminous. Need to think about it as the price is considerable different, especially for a one-off.


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## Karriope

Glad to help.
If you know the likely water resistance of your final watch, I certainly still like the idea of adding curved xxx FEET text above the P-51.
I think that would be a neat detail.


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## utzelu

Karriope said:


> Glad to help.
> If you know the likely water resistance of your final watch, I certainly still like the idea of adding curved xxx FEET text above the P-51.
> I think that would be a neat detail.


The water resistance is 50m, as stated by the case manufacturer. But since this is not a diver style watch, I don't really think it should be written on the dial. Plus that dials is quite busy as it is, with many elements. I like busy dials, so right now I think there is a good balance of design elements. Next step is to etch a new sheet of brass dial blanks and finalize the details with the dial printer. Still way to go.


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## Karriope

utzelu said:


> The water resistance is 50m, as stated by the case manufacturer. But since this is not a diver style watch, I don't really think it should be written on the dial. Plus that dials is quite busy as it is, with many elements. I like busy dials, so right now I think there is a good balance of design elements. Next step is to etch a new sheet of brass dial blanks and finalize the details with the dial printer. Still way to go.


50m would be around 164ft, maybe round that to 150ft or something. I personally think it's a detail that is a nice throwback to the altimeter. But as you say, the dial is getting busy, so perhaps having less text is a good idea.
I do think though, maybe you should choose a different typeface for the '1940' and 'AUTOMATIC', to something more of the period.
I'm also not too sure about the minute numerals, it feels slightly excessive for the look in my opinion - not that it's bad, rather that based on the original, it loses some of the flavor and goes more technical in appearance.

Oh, you might also want to differentiate the decorative marks on the date window there, since the way they are now, it might be difficult to identify the current date at a glance. I am supposing you are following the original showing three numbers (is it a thermometer, or something?), but if you want to show all three numbers, perhaps you could make the middle mark pointing to the current date thicker than the other two.
At the same time, it's your personal one-off watch so it might not be an issue for you since you know the design.


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## utzelu

Karriope said:


> 50m would be around 164ft, maybe round that to 150ft or something. I personally think it's a detail that is a nice throwback to the altimeter. But as you say, the dial is getting busy, so perhaps having less text is a good idea.
> I do think though, maybe you should choose a different typeface for the '1940' and 'AUTOMATIC', to something more of the period.
> I'm also not too sure about the minute numerals, it feels slightly excessive for the look in my opinion - not that it's bad, rather that based on the original, it loses some of the flavor and goes more technical in appearance.
> 
> Oh, you might also want to differentiate the decorative marks on the date window there, since the way they are now, it might be difficult to identify the current date at a glance. I am supposing you are following the original showing three numbers (is it a thermometer, or something?), but if you want to show all three numbers, perhaps you could make the middle mark pointing to the current date thicker than the other two.
> At the same time, it's your personal one-off watch so it might not be an issue for you since you know the design.


You're right about the typeface of the "1940" and "AUTOMATIC" texts. This is something I need to refine further as there are currently 3 different typefaces (not including the date typeface which is given). As for the minute numerals, I quite like the technical aspect it gives. I had them for a long time on the dial, but chose to hide them while I focused on different areas. Moving the hour numerals closer to the center gave me the room to use the minute numerals I was missing. Also I need to refine more the gradations near the date window, but it is getting closer to the finish line


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