# Opinions on 3716 portugieser chrono w/ new 69000 movement?



## LCheapo

I always liked the appearance of the 3712 (portugieser chronograph rattrapante) and 3714 (portugieser chrono), but just couldn't get over the rough feel of the 7750-based movement when actuating the chrono, especially when starting from the reset position. It just felt disappointing for a (back then) $4500+ (or more, for the rattrapante) watch.
The new 69000 chronograph movement seems like a move in the right direction (in-house, column wheel), and I also like the display back of the new 3716 chrono, but there are still a few issues that I'm wondering about:

A) the current 3716 '150 year' portugieser chronograph edition lacks the applied numerals of the 3712 and 3714; this seems like a step backwards or down in dial design.
B) in at least one interview, the IWC leadership seems to be positioning the 69000 as a lower tier movement, with emphasis on ease of production, assembly and lubrication.
C) the movement finish looks a bit pedestrian; but maybe it's just the pictures, and the surface finish and the edges look better in real life.

I searched for a comparison of the old and new portugieser chronos, but couldn't find one. 
Hence, this post. What do the IWC aficionados think of the new 3716?
Does the column wheel feel nicer than the old chrono?
Does the dial suffer from the lack of applied markers?
Opinions on the movement finish?
From the article linked above, it sounds like the movement has an indirect second; any issues with that?


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## islands62

if I am not mistaken the 3714 has a stamped face, and while the number markers are raised, they are not applied. I do prefer the depth that the old model has, but its' a design preference, and not a deal breaker for me.
In-house has it pro and cons, but in this case I do think for the price point, this movement is superior to the 7750 based movement of the predecessor. If you prefer the old models face and movement, there are plenty out there to buy if that is your choice. The new movement for sure needs to hit a price point appropriate for the watch. While IWC finishing has been good,its' finish is probably as good as it needs to be at this level. It's no Lange competitor, and ease of production and service will _hopefully_ mean a longer service life or lower service costs.

I think its nice that they left this watch design intact and mode improvements. It was my fewar that they were going to discontinue this model when they introduced the Chronograph Classic.


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## som

The 3716 seemed to resolve the issue most people had with paying a huge price for a valjoux movement. 

My feeling is that IWC will likely discontinue the 3714 valjoux and produce another line of Portuguese chronos with the cal 69000 with the raised numerals. The laquer dial and flat numerals were likely just to be consistent with the other Jubilee watches. 

But as is, I honestly prefer the look of the 3714. The painted flat numerals look a bit cheap considering it's supposed to be a sporty dress watch I would have liked a bit more depth. 

I think someone mentioned here that they look at the dial of a watch much more than a case back and I wholley agree that despite a nicer case back, the flat dial is really a deal breaker for me.

Oh the numerals on the 3714 are applied. Im pretty sure unless my eyes are deceiving me. I'm looking at mine right now. The minute indices are stamped and raised.


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## islands62

After some googling, the 3714 got applied numerals somewhere around 2011. Thanks.


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## som

islands62 said:


> After some googling, the 3714 got applied numerals somewhere around 2011. Thanks.


Yes and iwc's website makes it even more confusing.

"Everything is integrated harmoniously on the clearly organized dial with the encircling precision scale: the recessed totalizers, the embossed Arabic numerals and the perfectly proportioned feuille hands for hours and minutes"


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## LCheapo

Thanks for the helpful insights and opinions!


One conclusion is that I need to get my hands on a 3716 (or the Ingenieur chrono with the same movement, if the 3716 is not yet widely available) to see what the chrono pusher action feels like. Is there an IWC AD at Heathrow? 


And I might have to wait for the regular (i.e. non anniversary edition) 3716s to come out, if there is a chance those might return to the applied markers. Hopefully they'll keep the display back.

If not, can IWC ADs order and swap parts like casebacks as part of after-sale service, or does IWC only supply spare parts for the exact model you bought? (I assume they will not sell parts to me directly.)

And another related question: what are the thoughts here on buying local (in my case, US) versus buying in Europe and getting the VAT refunded? Besides the potential savings (or absence thereof; I haven't researched prices yet), are there service and warranty implications?


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## som

LCheapo said:


> If not, can IWC ADs order and swap parts like casebacks as part of after-sale service, or does IWC only supply spare parts for the exact model you bought? (I assume they will not sell parts to me directly.)


My understanding is that they normally don't swap out parts unless it's an accessory like straps. Also, the case back is serialized (not sure if the movement is) so even more a reason for them not to want to swap out your case back. Just my opinion though.


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## LCheapo

*Update*: Thanks to the very helpful dealer right off Getreidegasse in Salzburg's old town I was able to handle the Ingenieur chrono, which has the same 69000 movement as the new 3716 portugieser chrono. The 3716 anniversary edition chronograph is not expected there before this summer, and the dealer did not have any additional info on later integration into the standard lineup.

The chrono button feel is significantly nicer than on my 7750 based (non-IWC) chronograph and the 3714 portugieser chrono that I tried over ten years ago. Start/stop and reset have an easier (but still very positive) feel, and the force needed for the initial start from the reset position now seems to be the same as for subsequent restarts after a stop without reset.
For what it's worth, the movement finish looked fine without a loupe.


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## issey.miyake

The move to in-house movement and display case back is a welcome addition but as others have said the stamped numerals are somewhat a backward step for IWC.

The 7750 based movement didn't bother me so much because I got my 371446 for a great price and also it was the look/watch I've always wanted.


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## flame2000

I thought these lacquered dial with the printed markers are just 150 Years Anniversary models?
I am not a fan of the printed dial, they lack depth. Hopefully the standard production model comes with applied markers.


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## Robertus

I hope - after the Yacht Club Chrono and the Port Chrono Classic - some day the cal. 89xxx will find its way into the "gold standard" 41 mm 3714/3716 case too.


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## cfmascetti

to each his own but IMO the 7750 based movement is a workhorse with decades of development and reliability, also because it's based on a 7750 any reputable watchmaker can give it a service and cleaning. The new blue dialed one looks great wearing it as I type:


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## yessir69

I suspect the lacquered dial will be unbelievable in person and the painted numbers will be correct. I can’t wait to see it in person.


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## SulliB

Just this week I placed an order for the 371601... now the long wait for October when it ships. I’m still on the fence particularly around the dial, specifically if I’ll like it as much as the 371491. Ultimately the in-house movement and exhibition caseback pushed my in the direction of the 3716 over the 3714.


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## DimaL

371601 with blue dial is stunning. I got mine today from NYC boutique. I had a chance to handle both - 3716 and 3714 back in march, when 3716 was on the road show. I also had reservations about printed numerals and the dial, but to my surprise I immediately liked 3716 more than 3714. Even with printed numerals, the color of the lacquer is so deep blue and numerals are so striking white - the contrast is amazing and it gives enough depth. Also, while printed, numerals are not flat - they stand up. I think I read somewhere that they've been printed over several times.

Overall, I'm very happy I placed an order. I love display caseback, caliber finish is very nice, and combination of dial, numerals, and hands is simply stunning. I'm attaching the picture, but it can't do the justice to this very fine piece.


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## Picasa70

Received my 3716 white dial last week. Very positively surprised by the white dial, like I had been at the IWC shop in Paris when I first saw it "live". Printed numerals are ok, especially in this black finish, making it different from the blue ones from normal model.
But the key for me was the transparent case back, with a great view onto the 69000 caliber and its spiral heart : real upgrade vs trad model I believe. A selfish pleasure to take it off and look at it beating!
Black strap is great, but I believe I'll buy a more sporty one for a dual look of this standard of elegance this watch convey.


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## eonflux

The button operation in the 7750 in my previous 3706 was a bit harsh, same with a a previous Breitling. Reliable, though. The movement in the 3716 should be more enjoyable to use, and the display back is a nice bonus


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## chnzwh

Got my blue dial 3716 from IWC boutique in Paris right before October and it is absolutely stunning in the metal. Having both 3714 and 3716, I can say that the chrono start/stop button is much smoother to operate on 3716 but the reset button on 3716 feels kind of "empty" when pushed. In addition, 3716 does not have the famous wobbling on 3714.

I concur with DimaL on the printed numerals not being completely flat, but the embossed numerals on 3714 simply stand taller and look slightly more vivid under certain lighting conditions. Having said that, the lacquered dials on both versions of 3716 are simply richer than those on various versions of 3714; one has to see them in person to appreciate the difference.

Picture taken at Côte d'Azur


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## sincedric

I have to say I like the watch more than I thought I would. The lack of applied numerals to blend in with the theme of the Jubilee Collection certainly took away some of the Portugieser Family's traits, but the reflections from the numbers actually make it look a bit raised under certain light condition - even though it is indeed flat. The chrono works nicely, the minute counting hand jumps to the next minute when your chrono second hand reaches 60, which behaves differently compared to the 7750. To sum it up, I love it and I'm very happy with it!









Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk


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## TAG Fan

I compared the 3714 and the 3716 side by side yesterday and the 3716 was the clear winner (in my opinion of course). The blue dial is simply superb on the 3716. I was also a sucker for the the applied indices but something about the 3716 spoke to me more.

Having said the above, both are stunning time pieces and which one is better is an opinion which rests with the individual.


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## Mulix

I have to agree. I received my 3716 in blue yesterday. I had pre-ordered the white but when my AD had a launch party I just knew I had to get the blue. I sat with the "standard" 3714 in both blue and white and the 3716 in blue and white. While i also was not convinced by the lack of blue applied numerals (on white) on the wrist the 3716 is the clear winner. The dials are so crisp and matt that the numbers pop on both versions. Couldn't be happier with it.


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## LCheapo

LCheapo said:


> Thanks for the helpful insights and opinions!
> [...]
> And I might have to wait for the regular (i.e. non anniversary edition) 3716s to come out, if there is a chance those might return to the applied markers. Hopefully they'll keep the display back.
> [...]


Two years later, and that is exactly what happened! I'm glad I waited a bit longer!
https://www.iwc.com/us/en/search.html?q=IW3716


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## LCheapo

Unfortunately I had to drop off my 371604 Portugieser Chronograph at the Chicago IWC boutique for warranty service work: not only did the timing creep up from initially +6s/day (borderline within specs) to +12s/day (definitely not within specs) since February, but the whole mechanism stops once every while when the chronograph is activated. 
The boutique is going to send it to the service center in Texas. Having read the one horrible review here about their polishing work, I told them to instruct IWC to refrain from any polishing. 
I'll keep this updated.

Overall, I really like the watch, but the accuracy is just no comparison to my Omega co-axial Speedmaster, which runs a steady +0.8s/day for a year now, and is also much more consistent in positions. I think I posted a comparison in February of this year.


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## Huggs157

Just picked up my 371606 over the weekend! My first ever IWC as well as my first chronograph. Was a little worried that it would wear too big but it seems fine on the wrist. Haven't encountered any issues, seems to be running +5s/day. Can't stop looking at it....?


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## LCheapo

Yes, these are very nice watches. Congratulations on your new watch!

Update on my service experience with the Chicago IWC boutique (& the Texas service center): it went very well, with 19 day turnaround from drop-off to pickup today. The watch looks as unblemished as before, and on the timegrapher runs as close to 0 s/day as seems possible. I still have to see where it lands when worn.

I posted the rates and more details already at IWC Service, WTH?, but I'll post the rates here as well:








Update: +3.3 seconds in the first 24 hours, and 3.5s/day over the first three days.


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## NewWatchGuy1559

Huggs157 said:


> Just picked up my 371606 over the weekend! My first ever IWC as well as my first chronograph. Was a little worried that it would wear too big but it seems fine on the wrist. Haven't encountered any issues, seems to be running +5s/day. Can't stop looking at it....?
> 
> View attachment 15552558


What size us your wrist? I'm looking at that same model. Thx!


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## Huggs157

LCheapo said:


> Yes, these are very nice watches. Congratulations on your new watch!
> 
> Update on my service experience with the Chicago IWC boutique (& the Texas service center): it went very well, with 19 day turnaround from drop-off to pickup today. The watch looks as unblemished as before, and on the timegrapher runs as close to 0 s/day as seems possible. I still have to see where it lands when worn.
> 
> I posted the rates and more details already at IWC Service, WTH?, but I'll post the rates here as well:
> View attachment 15560496
> 
> Update: +3.3 seconds in the first 24 hours, and 3.5s/day over the first three days.


Good to hear that your watch came back fine. I feel like mine will eventually make it's way there, good thing we have an 8 year warranty.



NewWatchGuy1559 said:


> What size us your wrist? I'm looking at that same model. Thx!


My wrist size is just shy of 7".


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## LCheapo

Update on my 371604, fresh back from the Texas service center: unfortunately the watch is not fixed. The rate is much improved (+3.5s/day), but the movement still stops about every 100th time when the chronograph is engaged. It stopped 5 times in about 300 start/stop cycles. Looking at the clutch engagement with a 25x loupe, it seems two pairs of teeth are making head-on contact, and that blocks the movement. 
The IWC boutique was going to find out for me what exactly the service center did; maybe they just regulated the rate, and forgot to look at the chronograph issue. If it's not an engagement depth issue, It could also be that one of the wheels has a malformed tooth, or is slightly wobbly/excentric in its pivots, or something like that.


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## WTSP

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with the caliber 69000. I had been wondering how IWC's new chrono would perform and whether it marked a step forward from the Valjoux. I agree with your original post and generally dislike the Valjoux family of movements. The feel of the pushers and winding, the thickness, appearance (for open case backs), and the layout of the 7750 version don't appeal to me. However, one has to admit that they are very accurate and robust. If I had to rely on a mechanical chronograph for any critical reason, I'd probably choose a Valjoux.

I'm a big fan of the El Primero though and own several. They have the reliability and accuracy of the Valjoux due to the excellence of their initial design and long history that has allowed for incremental improvements and upgrades. All these companies coming out with new chronograph movements concern me because while I like having options other than the Valjoux, the new designs will only ever exist in the limited bubble that is the luxury watch market. They won't have the volume and longer lifecycle that the Valjoux, El Primeo, Frederic Piguet 1185, Lemania 1340, Omega 861, etc. have benefitted from.

So where does that put IWC and the 69000? When I tried on a watch with that movement it felt a little better than the Valjoux, but more like the Tag Heuer 1887/1/02 family of movements, which are something of an "entry level in-house" caliber. It looks to me as though the balance, regulator, shock protection, automatic winding hub, and other components are outsourced standard parts, the escapement especially looks very much like a complete ETA set. The flat column wheel appears very cost efficient and I don't really like how it looks. One sentence jumped out at me from the article you posted:
"The first priority is to show that a robust standard in-house movement can be produced at the same cost level."

How can IWC do that at lower volumes and also amortize the recent development costs? You'd have to have a design approach and components that are very cost efficient, cheaper than a Valjoux. It looks to me like the 89000 will continue to be their high end chronograph while the 69000 will replace the Valjoux. I would have thought that IWC might leverage Jaeger LeCoultre's 750 series, but maybe it was too expensive.

I'd be concerned to hear if there are many other stories similar to yours. Hopefully this won't turn out like the Omega 2500 A, B, C, D debacle.


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## Kirkawall

WTSP said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with the caliber 69000. I had been wondering how IWC's new chrono would perform and whether it marked a step forward from the Valjoux. I agree with your original post and generally dislike the Valjoux family of movements. The feel of the pushers and winding, the thickness, appearance (for open case backs), and the layout of the 7750 version don't appeal to me. However, one has to admit that they are very accurate and robust. If I had to rely on a mechanical chronograph for any critical reason, I'd probably choose a Valjoux.
> 
> *I'm a big fan of the El Primero though and own several. They have the reliability and accuracy of the Valjoux due to the excellence of their initial design and long history that has allowed for incremental improvements and upgrades. All these companies coming out with new chronograph movements concern me because while I like having options other than the Valjoux, the new designs will only ever exist in the limited bubble that is the luxury watch market. They won't have the volume and longer lifecycle that the Valjoux, El Primeo, Frederic Piguet 1185, Lemania 1340, Omega 861, etc. have benefitted from.*
> 
> So where does that put IWC and the 69000? When I tried on a watch with that movement it felt a little better than the Valjoux, but more like the Tag Heuer 1887/1/02 family of movements, which are something of an "entry level in-house" caliber. It looks to me as though the balance, regulator, shock protection, automatic winding hub, and other components are outsourced standard parts, the escapement especially looks very much like a complete ETA set. The flat column wheel appears very cost efficient and I don't really like how it looks. One sentence jumped out at me from the article you posted:
> "The first priority is to show that a robust standard in-house movement can be produced at the same cost level."
> 
> How can IWC do that at lower volumes and also amortize the recent development costs? You'd have to have a design approach and components that are very cost efficient, cheaper than a Valjoux. It looks to me like the 89000 will continue to be their high end chronograph while the 69000 will replace the Valjoux. I would have thought that IWC might leverage Jaeger LeCoultre's 750 series, but maybe it was too expensive.
> 
> I'd be concerned to hear if there are many other stories similar to yours. Hopefully this won't turn out like the Omega 2500 A, B, C, D debacle.


I was weighing the new version versus the old, and came to similar conclusions. although I hadn't thought through the excellent point you make in the bolded. I did slightly prefer the feel of the 6900-based model when I was trying them on in the AD, and the new dials are indeed stunning, but it's hard to beat a well-modded 77xx for durability and accuracy.

FWIW, I feel much the same way about the Omega 1861 vs 3861. The newer movement offers some distinct advantages, but there's something reassuring about a caliber that has been revised and improved for decades and should run another 50 years or more with proper care.

I do own several Mark/Spitfire variants, and solidly prefer the 32000-series for their accuracy and PR. But at the discounts some of the outgoing Portugesiers are going for, I can see an excellent case for one of those.


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## LCheapo

LCheapo said:


> Update on my 371604, fresh back from the Texas service center: unfortunately the watch is not fixed. The rate is much improved (+3.5s/day), but the movement still stops about every 100th time when the chronograph is engaged. It stopped 5 times in about 300 start/stop cycles. Looking at the clutch engagement with a 25x loupe, it seems two pairs of teeth are making head-on contact, and that blocks the movement.
> The IWC boutique was going to find out for me what exactly the service center did; maybe they just regulated the rate, and forgot to look at the chronograph issue. If it's not an engagement depth issue, It could also be that one of the wheels has a malformed tooth, or is slightly wobbly/excentric in its pivots, or something like that.


Finally heard back from the boutique: the Texas service center only regulated the watch; they did not touch the clutch. No reason given as to why. But they do recommend to send the watch to IWC for this problem.


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## LCheapo

Now it's on its way again from the boutique to Texas, and then on to Switzerland. Apparently that is how it is handled; the service center takes care of the international shipping import/export issues. This time I attached a note to the watch, left it in the blocked stage, and the boutique manager wrote up a more detailed entry for their internal system.

Fingers crossed that IWC fixes it this time!


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## Vallée de Joux -

LCheapo said:


> Now it's on its way again from the boutique to Texas, and then on to Switzerland. Apparently that is how it is handled; the service center takes care of the international shipping import/export issues. This time I attached a note to the watch, left it in the blocked stage, and the boutique manager wrote up a more detailed entry for their internal system.
> 
> Fingers crossed that IWC fixes it this time!


Hope they are able to solve that issue once and for all.

Im personally not a fan of IWC technical support and would never buy again from them.
This is based on previous experience trying to fix a broken Portofino Chrono function, still well within warranty.

Took me 5 months to fix the issue (going circles between Austria - Switzerland), which was appalling to say the least.

The assistance in the US doesnt seem much different.. fingers crossed you get lucky!


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## RBK

LCheapo said:


> Now it's on its way again from the boutique to Texas, and then on to Switzerland. Apparently that is how it is handled; the service center takes care of the international shipping import/export issues. This time I attached a note to the watch, left it in the blocked stage, and the boutique manager wrote up a more detailed entry for their internal system.
> 
> Fingers crossed that IWC fixes it this time!


I too had issues with my chrono, had a video and a thread up here as well. Included a detailed note, pics, everything when I sent it to the TX center.... I asked if I could get an explanation on exactly what it is that was fixed, never heard back. I got it back 5 weeks later, so far knock on wood everything is working fine. Makes me wonder if it's the new 69000 movement, or it's just random bad luck... But when I see other people with the same issue on this movement, makes me wonder if I should have bought the old movement instead, even if it does not have the exhibition back.

I hope ur issues get fixed... FWIW, at least they'll throw in another travel case for free.


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## Vallée de Joux -

Interesting to see how many of us have encountered issues with IWC Chronos.



RBK said:


> I too had issues with my chrono, had a video and a thread up here as well. Included a detailed note, pics, everything when I sent it to the TX center.... I asked if I could get an explanation on exactly what it is that was fixed, never heard back. I got it back 5 weeks later, so far knock on wood everything is working fine. Makes me wonder if it's the new 69000 movement, or it's just random bad luck... But when I see other people with the same issue on this movement, makes me wonder if I should have bought the old movement instead, even if it does not have the exhibition back.
> 
> I hope ur issues get fixed... FWIW, at least they'll throw in another travel case for free.


Even though they never responded, were you able to find out the reason behind the problem? Any guess?

During the lengthy repair process of my IWC Portofino I was also left in the dark on the reasons behind its Technical problems or why the repair process took several weeks longer than the usual turnaround.

All in all, very disappointing.


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## LCheapo

RBK said:


> [...]I hope ur issues get fixed... FWIW, at least they'll throw in another travel case for free.


My watch already came with a (better) travel case, so I'm not sure why they feel throwing that in contributes anything of value. I bit my tongue last time and didn't say anything, but next time I'll let them know. Is that thing even leather? To me it looks and smells like plastic.

More importantly though, do you guys think IWC knowingly designed a crappy movement with the 69000 series?


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## dkbs

To be honest, 69000 movement is just a bug fix of classical 7750, it keeps most of 7750 except:
1) replace cam wheel with column wheel -- doesn't mean cam is worse, just because most nonexperts prefer column wheel

2) day/date jumper now are all spring loaded, no more jamming day/date wheel (actually all Chinese cloned 7750 uses spring loaded jumper)

3) remove balance regulator, so reduce the cost

4) reversing wheel now replaced with Seiko magic lever it is bi-directional winding...

5) some parts replaced with CNCed plate, such as spring, similar to Rolex 3235 (vs 3135)

I read through your complain, your problem is mostly from your dealer, not IWC service center because dealer could not explain the situation well. I believe your problem is just a chrono runner problem. Replace runner could easily fix the problem and it is cheap (about $30 for part).



LCheapo said:


> More importantly though, do you guys think IWC knowingly designed a crappy movement with the 69000 series?


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## dkbs

IWC's modern standard is 0-7 spd, with medium at 3.5spd. I saw most of IWC's new watches are around 3.5spd.

In old days, COSC set chronometer standard to -4 to +6 spd with 1 spd as medium. The recent research suggests a positive medium of new out box watch could bring long term benefit for accuracy because watch will slow down over a period of 5 years. The first adoption is Omega's master chronometer now is set to 0 to 5spd, instead of -4 to 6 spd (as a matter of fact, COSC is also called Omega Chronometer Standard)



LCheapo said:


> Update: +3.3 seconds in the first 24 hours, and 3.5s/day over the first three days.


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## LCheapo

dkbs said:


> To be honest, 69000 movement is just a bug fix of classical 7750, it keeps most of 7750 except:
> [...]


Good point; so you think it's not a bad new design, it's a 1:1 straight copy of the old 7750 clutch, and it should work. So in my case they just either installed a bad part, or didn't adjust it correctly. And didn't catch it in QC.

I read the description the boutique wrote up for the watch. It was correct and complete. Whoever worked on it at the Texas service center either chose not to read it, or read it and chose not to fix it, and then the center didn't catch it in QC either, or somebody caught it and said 'oh well, I guess it works most of the time'. Shoddy work. Twice.


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## Seaswirl

Sorry OP. I had serious problems with my Chronograph Classic when the 89631 first came out. The flyback would freeze the movement every so often and eventually the chronograph minutes and seconds hands would no longer reset to 0. IWC replaced it with a new watch. The replacement has been just fine for the past 5 years, but I admittedly don’t play with the fly back function much anymore.


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## LCheapo

Thanks, Seaswirl, it's good to hear of a similar case that was eventually resolved. How often did you have to send it in until you had a working watch, and how long did it take, roughly?


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## Seaswirl

LCheapo said:


> Thanks, Seaswirl, it's good to hear of a similar case that was eventually resolved. How often did you have to send it in until you had a working watch, and how long did it take, roughly?


 As soon as it crapped out, I brought it back to the AD who offered to exchange it. I never had to work through the service center. There were quite a few threads on the 89xxx movements back when IWC had a forum on their website, and I recall most folks got the issue resolved, albeit after a few months of waiting. Good luck, and I'm sure it will all work out.


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## dkbs

Seaswirl said:


> The flyback would freeze the movement every so often and eventually the chronograph minutes and seconds hands would no longer reset to 0.


The design of fly back is similar to vertical clutch. See picture below:










89360's chrono minute and second design is different to 7750 (or most chronograph movements). The chrono minute and hour are from barrel so it is independent of chronograph system and no jumper (so continuous increment). Only flyback would freeze movement is the flyback of second, not minute and hour. Mostly, it is improper oil of clutch.


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## tdk

dkbs said:


> The design of fly back is similar to vertical clutch. See picture below:
> 
> View attachment 15654966
> 
> 
> 89360's chrono minute and second design is different to 7750 (or most chronograph movements). The chrono minute and hour are from barrel so it is independent of chronograph system and no jumper (so continuous increment). Only flyback would freeze movement is the flyback of second, not minute and hour. Mostly, it is improper oil of clutch.


Interesting, seems like a poor design if it has the be replaced at every service. Do other chronos (ie Omega, ..) have similar part replacement requirements?


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## LCheapo

Update: IWC (Switzerland or Texas; not clear from the email I got from the boutique) confirms the chronograph malfunction, and estimates fourteen weeks to fix it.


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## LCheapo

Update: the watch is back, and now the movement locks up about every 16 chronograph cycles (25 times in 400 start/stop cycles). Before the second trip to IWC it stopped about every 100th cycles. So the good news is that this time IWC clearly found the right adjustment, but they turned it in the wrong direction... 

The boutique manager is going to try to get me into direct contact with an IWC service technician/watchmaker.


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## espresso&watches

LCheapo said:


> Update: the watch is back, and now the movement locks up about every 16 chronograph cycles (25 times in 400 start/stop cycles). Before the second trip to IWC it stopped about every 100th cycles. So the good news is that this time IWC clearly found the right adjustment, but they turned it in the wrong direction...
> 
> The boutique manager is going to try to get me into direct contact with an IWC service technician/watchmaker.


So it's come back functioning worse..... given my experiences with Richemont service, I'm not surprised. I'm sorry mate - hope it gets sorted promptly.


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## desk jockey

LCheapo said:


> Update: the watch is back, and now the movement locks up about every 16 chronograph cycles (25 times in 400 start/stop cycles). Before the second trip to IWC it stopped about every 100th cycles. So the good news is that this time IWC clearly found the right adjustment, but they turned it in the wrong direction...
> 
> The boutique manager is going to try to get me into direct contact with an IWC service technician/watchmaker.


Thanks for the update. This is actually worrying and sort of off putting... Has this affected your plans for the timepiece?


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## LCheapo

I told the boutique manager, who has been very helpful so far, that at this point, after two failed repair attempts, I would like to ask IWC to replace either the movement or the whole watch. 

I'm still at a loss how IWC could send back a watch that is clearly malfunctioning. They (whoever did the second service, Texas or Switzerland) were given a written problem description, including instructions how to reproduce the problem. From my online searches for reports of similar problems this does not seem to be a frequent problem of 7750 and related movements. 
It should be straightforward for a service technician/watchmaker to reproduce the lockup, adjust the clutch engagement, if that doesn't fix it, swap out the two engaging wheels/parts, and if that doesn't fix it, swap out the bridges/plates that these wheels/parts sit in. If that doesn't fix it, replace the movement. 
They were clearly in there, since I can see ever so slight distortions of the screw top surface near the slot for all three screws that mount the automatic bridge. Those weren't there before the 2nd service attempt. Or maybe they just retightened (and slightly over-torqued) the screws hoping that would fix whatever is wrong with the watch...


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## LCheapo

Also, after about eight hours of rest (not wearing or winding). the watch shows 320 degree amplitude when horizontal, and 300 degree for the vertical positions This seems rather high. On the timegrapher the rates are ok in this situation (+3.0 to +6.3s/day), but when worn it gained over 50 seconds in one and a half days! 
I put it fully wound on the timegrapher, and it must indeed be banking, running at over +500s/day, and an amplitude of 331 degree dial up. (Using 49 degree as the lift angle, taken from the 7750; using the default of 52 degree the amplitudes would come out even higher.)


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## desk jockey

LCheapo said:


> I told the boutique manager, who has been very helpful so far, that at this point, after two failed repair attempts, I would like to ask IWC to replace either the movement or the whole watch.
> 
> I'm still at a loss how IWC could send back a watch that is clearly malfunctioning. They (whoever did the second service, Texas or Switzerland) were given a written problem description, including instructions how to reproduce the problem. From my online searches for reports of similar problems this does not seem to be a frequent problem of 7750 and related movements.
> It should be straightforward for a service technician/watchmaker to reproduce the lockup, adjust the clutch engagement, if that doesn't fix it, swap out the two engaging wheels/parts, and if that doesn't fix it, swap out the bridges/plates that these wheels/parts sit in. If that doesn't fix it, replace the movement.
> They were clearly in there, since I can see ever so slight distortions of the screw top surface near the slot for all three screws that mount the automatic bridge. Those weren't there before the 2nd service attempt. Or maybe they just retightened (and slightly over-torqued) the screws hoping that would fix whatever is wrong with the watch...


Bloody hell, man... Like I said - really off putting. It is inexcusable to send a watch where the problem symptoms can be so readily replicated. It feels like they either tested it for a total of 5 seconds or just felt like they didn't want to continue working on it and chucked it back your way. Either way it is extremely poor service.

Also, damaged slots on auto-wind assembly bridge screws is utterly disrespectful. Not only are those screws clearly visible through the case back, but it indicates improper handling of the re-assembly of the movement. To me this is grounds for warranty replacement of the entire watch, to be fair.

This kind of stuff just ruins the ownership experience. I mean, even if the piece is replaced with a new one, you will still be looking to send it out for a service one of those days and then what? Interesting situation, keep fingers crossed that your watch gets sorted out. So far it is looking outrageous.


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## LCheapo

Thanks for the moral support, desk jockey. 
It's not a life-and-death situation, but I agree this is pretty annoying. I still like the watch though, it just needs to get sorted out. I'm confident it will in the end. The screw 'damage' is really only ever so slight, you have to look through the case back window at the reflection from the screw top surface under just the right angle, and then you can see the very small distortion (bulging, I assume) right next to the slot. But you are right, once you know it's there, you can't 'unsee' it,
and the screws need to be replaced. Actually, since the screws are steel, and the plates are a softer material (brass (?)), it's probably the threads in the plate that get stretched when overtorqueing, so one could argue now they should replace the plate(s). 

Sending a watch back that is overbanking on the timegrapher is actually pretty comical.

But even diagnosing the lockup issue only takes a few minutes, even at the one in hundred occurrence rate it had initially, so I do not understand their QC policies at all. It doesn't even make economical sense, because they already paid a watchmaker/technician to disassemble and reassemble the watch, plus they must be reimbursing the boutique for the shipping cost. They just seem not set up at all for dealing with these (hopefully) rare occasions where a watch has a real malfunction, and not just the usual wear and tear and cleaning/lubrication need.


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## WTSP

Another entry in the record of subpar servicing experiences which have sadly become the norm in the industry. Somehow the industry needs to change to stop producing these garbage experiences for watch owners. You have my moral support as well !

What's your after-service return rate? Does it always...
Viable watch collecting in the age of servicing fiascos...


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## Seaswirl

Ughhhhh. Really sorry to hear it. I’d try for a replacement watch at this point, but I think they’d fight you on it. When this happened to me, the AD really went to bat for me to get the watch replaced so I’d see what the AD can do. Thank god at least for the 8 year warranty.


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## LCheapo

Unfortunately the Chicago IWC boutique emailed back saying they have done all they could do for me. Apparently IWC (Texas? Can't get a clear statement on where it actually was) even wanted to charge for the second failed attempt.
How does one get hold of IWC Switzerland? I tried the online concierge, but they want me to send it again to the Texas service center.

TNesher had a similar problem with his new Portofino Chronograph in 2019: Chronograph malfunction on new IWC .
IWC was also, just as in my case, not able to resolve the problem; he was able to return the watch.


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## WTSP

Sorry to hear that your difficulties continue with that watch.

I actually went to visit and IWC AD yesterday to try on the new Portuguese chronographs again. I came back with the same feeling I had previously, which was that the squishy pushers, regulation mechanism that's the same as a 2824, flat column wheel, all felt like this movement would be more at home in a Frederic Constant or Maurice Lacroix costing half the price. Movement aside, the rest of the watch is superb. They need something like a Frederic Piguet 1185, El Primero or Rolex 4130 to match the overall quality of the watch and offer the crisp high end chronograph feel to match the rest of the watch.

I recognize that my assessment is subjective and some buyers might like the feel of the 69000, so I don't to make it seem like I'm trashing the watch. I have similar feelings about the new GO Senator Seventies chrono movement or Piaget's chronos. They just don't have the feel of the movements I listed above.


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## LCheapo

I really like the design of the 3712/3714/3716. That being said I think they could have done a much better job equalizing the pusher forces, and also maybe making the watch a bit thinner. $30k+ Lange's do have more equalized start/stop/restart forces (the Chicago IWC boutique also carries Lange, and Panerai). I don't know whether anything below that price point does. I really like my Omega co-axial Speedmaster, but that one also has quite a bit of variation between the pusher force required for the initial start, and subsequent stops and restarts. Not sure whether the engineers designing these watches even think about that.

Regarding what is appropriate at half the price:
My understanding is that a $7k-$8k retail watch costs half that to the dealer, and about 1/5 ($1500) to make. So these are not really $8k watches. Of course it would be nice if one could buy them for what they are worth...

My 3716 Portugieser chrono is one the way back to the AD.


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## ilovewatches888

@LCheapo - any updates my friend? I'm sooooo close to buying one of those new 41mm IWC Pilot Chronos and that is also using the 69385 movement. Not sure if its identical to the 3716 but its the same family.

I'm scared and hesitent after reading your review. Is this issue quite common? I know that the 3716 has been out for a while so surely there would be a plethora of other customers if this issue was widespread similar to the Tudor GMT and their date change issues which still not resolved after many years.

I dont want to end up with a dud and send into IWC service centre numerous times. That will just take the enjoyment out of the watch for me and honestly I'm not as patient as I used to be so I'd probably just get angry and sell the watch or demand a refund.

Please share if you dont mind when you get the watch back and if you know about any other threads or forums that discuss issues with this movement please if you could share that as well.

Cheers mate


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## LCheapo

ilw88, I don't think it is a common issue. As far as I know, the 7750 uses the same chrono clutch mechanism, and that is a very common movement.
The watch is now back at the original AD it came from (not my local boutique), and hopefully the AD will be able to initiate an exchange with IWC.

I think if you buy at a local AD and find a problem and return the watch within a few days, they will exchange it right there and then. I would verify this with them though beforehand. Otherwise, I don't know what to say. How can IWC/Richemont tolerate the ridiculously bad performance of their Texas service center?


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## WTSP

LCheapo said:


> ilw88, I don't think it is a common issue. As far as I know, the 7750 uses the same chrono clutch mechanism, and that is a very common movement.


To my knowledge, the chronograph clutch mechanisms on the Valjoux 7750 and IWC caliber 69000 series is very different. The Valjoux employs a horizontal clutch with cam based activation, whereas the IWC has a vertical clutch and column wheel. There's been tons written about horizontal vs vertical clutch systems, as well as column wheel vs cam.
All You Need to Know About Chronographs - Monochrome Watches.

Suffice it to say that IWC's approach is nicer on paper and higher end than a Valjoux. However, it hasn't been on the market as long and hasn't been put through its paces to the same extent as the Valjoux.


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## LCheapo

WTSP, you are mistaken. Maybe you are confusing the 69000 with the 80-something series. The 69000 has a 'tilting pinion' clutch, just like the 7750.
Unfortunately I was not able to take a really good picture of the locked clutch engagement. Here is my best shot, with an enlargement below it. You can make out the brass colored seconds wheel teeth, and the dark (steel) pinion teeth, and, matching opposing teeth from the left towards the contact area, you can infer that the teeth are indeed hitting face-on, not face-to-groove:

















For a verbal description of the movement and clutch, see for example Introducing: The IWC Portugieser Chronograph, Now With In-House Caliber 69355 - HODINKEE , near the end:
_"The Movement
*Caliber:* IWC 69355
*Functions:* time, chronograph with seconds and minute totalizers
*Diameter:* 30mm
*Power Reserve:* 46 hours
*Winding:* manual and automatic
*Frequency:* 28,800 vph
*Jewels:* 27
*Additional Details: *column wheel with* tilting pinion mechanism*"_
(my highlighting).

There are unfortunately articles out there that have it wrong: e.g. https://revolutionwatch.com/50th-year-of-the-automatic-chronograph-race-to-be-the-best/

In this picture (from Georges Kern, Christiaan Knoop and Stefan Ihnen on the new IWC Ingenieur Chronograph Classic and the new calibre 69000 movement family - Monochrome Watches), you can see the clutch pinion wheel through the opening at 1 o'clock just outside the rotor bearing; it's the small shiny component to the left of the big screw in that opening:


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## WTSP

My apologies, I stand corrected! I thought I knew a certain amount about chronographs, but I was limited to horizontal vs vertical clutches. I still don't know all the ins and outs of the Valjoux. Perhaps I should have kept my Revue Thommen Airspeed 7750. Thanks for the photos and links. In fact, I had referred to the Revolution article you posted above. They do have a good recent article discussion oscillating pinions though, which perhaps makes up for the misinformation in that chronograph movement write-up.
https://revolutionwatch.com/oscillating-pinion-the-unsung-chronograph-coupling-solution/


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## LCheapo

WTSP, I'm glad your post prompted me to search again for my pics. It seemed I had one where one can almost see the issue. It's more in focus than I remembered...
And thanks for the oscillating pinion link; I'm not sure I had seen it before, but in any case it is a nice read.


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## ilovewatches888

Thanks for that information @LCheapo and @WTSP.

I think I may have to take the plunge the pull for this watch is strong. In saying that not many places have the new chronograph in stock yet. I was going to buy this watch from a gray dealer instead of IWC directly. I know the warranty will follow the watch but I'm just thinking it might be worthwhile to buy from the boutique directly and pay 20% more?

Or maybe its a good idea for me to wait another 12 months until more real time data of this new spitfire is more common.


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## dkbs

LCheapo said:


> WTSP, you are mistaken. Maybe you are confusing the 69000 with the 80-something series. The 69000 has a 'tilting pinion' clutch, just like the 7750.


Both 69 and 89 movements are based on 7750, identical clutch system. The difference is, 69 IS a 7750, replacing wire parts with CNCed plates, 89 is a redesign.


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## ilovewatches888

dkbs said:


> Both 69 and 89 movements are based on 7750, identical clutch system. The difference is, 69 IS a 7750, replacing wire parts with CNCed plates, 89 is a redesign.


Interesting. Is there a list of things that the 6900 based movement is different with the 7750? Why does the chrono function feel better than on the regular 7750 if its pretty much the same movement? I'm a Noob when it comes to movements but from past experience whenever I've operated a column wheel chrono it felt 100x better and operated/reset perfectly each and every time. Cant say the same for the ETA 7750 which felt horrid to operate and had numerous times where the chrono would reset not perfectly at 12.

I know the new 6900 is bi-directional auto winding which the 7750 is not but what are the technical improvements then if its essentially the same 7750? Whats the improvements?


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## dkbs

ilovewatches888 said:


> Interesting. Is there a list of things that the 6900 based movement is different with the 7750?


It is a Vaucher manufactured 7750, change cam to column wheel, replace all wire parts with CNCed plates for easy to control the quality, replace reversing wheel with Seiko magic lever (Vaucher hires many former Seiko people). And the most important to the end user is, 7750's fixed day-date jumper now changes to spring loaded jumper, see photo:










End user does not need to worry about day or date wheel jamming. As a matter of fact, Low quality Shanghai cloned 7750 already uses spring loaded jumper.

Most other parts are interchangeable.


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## LCheapo

Dkbs, very insightful! So you could take a wheel set out of a 7750 and it would drop right into a IW3716? With jewels in the same positions? And no improvement to the shape of teeth etc.?

Do you have any insight into the problem my 3716 exhibited (chronograph locking up movement)? I have not come across reports of this for the 7750, except for the one Portofino mentioned earlier.

Ilw888, unfortunately all the chronographs I have tried so far, column wheel or not, had a pretty significant discrepancy in pusher force between the first and subsequent starts. The exception was a Lange: for $40k+ you can get very nice even chronograph actuation...


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## dkbs

LCheapo said:


> Do you have any insight into the problem my 3716 exhibited (chronograph locking up movement)? I have not come across reports of this for the 7750, except for the one Portofino mentioned earlier.


Your problem appears hours after chrono running, so I guess the problem is not from oscillating pinon or chronograph minute counter part. It should from dial side hour counter. Need check it under microscope.


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## LCheapo

dkbs said:


> Your problem appears hours after chrono running, so I guess the problem is not from oscillating pinon or chronograph minute counter part. It should from dial side hour counter. Need check it under microscope.


Dkbs, no, the movement locks up immediately. Also, no hour counter on this watch...


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## ilovewatches888

dkbs said:


> End user does not need to worry about day or date wheel jamming. As a matter of fact, Low quality Shanghai cloned 7750 already uses spring loaded jumper.


Thanks for the detailed information. When you refer to the day or date wheel jamming are you saying that with the new IWC movement there is no "danger" zone anymore when manually changing the day/date? In the past when I owned a 7750 based watch you could not change the date between 10pm and around 3am to avoid damage to the movement. Is this still the case with the new movement? I know its not an instant change still which is kind of annoying.

Also the 6900 based movement have been out for how many years now? Is there any wide reports of on-going issues? I dont want to be in the same position as my best friend who has sent their Tudor GMT into warranty 3 times because of the datechange issue with that movement.


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## dkbs

ilovewatches888 said:


> Thanks for the detailed information. When you refer to the day or date wheel jamming are you saying that with the new IWC movement there is no "danger" zone anymore when manually changing the day/date? In the past when I owned a 7750 based watch you could not change the date between 10pm and around 3am to avoid damage to the movement. Is this still the case with the new movement? I know its not an instant change still which is kind of annoying.


Yes, you will not jam day/date wheel if you adjust date around 12am. Even if it is "jammed", you can forward day/date and get out. In previous 7750 case, you have to open case, remove hands/dial and reset jumper.

Quick/slow change is determined by the shape of jumper tip. A vertical front means instant change, a angled slope means slow change. Day-date movement usually uses slow change, otherwise the balance amplitude is too low around 12am.


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