# Octagonal Zenith Defy models



## Rifish

I'm wondering how many octagonal Defy models Zenith made late 60's and early 70's? I collected here some data and photos about the basic Defy models (some reference/catalog numbers are guesses):

-A3641(?) Green/brown sand dial with elongated indeces. Made only with cal. 2552PC.










-A3642 Grey sand dial with almost square chunky indeces. Made with cal. 2552PC and cal. 2562PC (latest versions text 28800 on the dial).










-A3643 Silverwhite dial with elongated indeces. Made with cal. 2552PC and cal. 2562PC (latest versions text 28800 on the dial).










-A3644(?) Shampagne white dial with almost square chunky indeces that were used also on El Primero Espada. Made only with cal. 2552PC. A rare one.










-A3645 Black/charcoal dial with rectangular bar indeces that have lume stripe in the middle. Made with cal. 2552PC and cal. 2562PC (latest versions text 28800 on the dial).










-A3690(?) Turquoise dial with almost square chunky indeces. Made only with cal. 2562P (always text 28800 on the dial).










-A3691 Red/burgundy dial with almost square chunky indeces. Made only with cal. 2562PC.(always text 28800 on the dial).










And then there are the models where crown is at four o'clock, gold versions (with two different dial?) and womens Defy models.

Were here all the basic octagonal Defy models? And please, correct if some details are wrong above.


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## Davidevans0

I’ve attached a photo of my gold one for reference.


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## Rifish

Davidevans0 said:


> I've attached a photo of my gold one for reference.


Thank you, this looks great! Especially the bracelet seems like new.


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## WTSP

Davidevans0 said:


> I've attached a photo of my gold one for reference.


Nice! Are those plated or solid gold? Hard to come by the solid versions.


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## Davidevans0

WTSP said:


> Davidevans0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've attached a photo of my gold one for reference.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice! Are those plated or solid gold? Hard to come by the solid versions.
Click to expand...

It's solid! It has been in a safe for however many years and I only really wear it on special occasions. No idea of its value!


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## WTSP

That’s terrific. I believe the production numbers on solid gold models were very low. It look to be in terrific condition.


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## Sergei T.

Hiding this beauty in a safe is an absolute crime!!


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## Davidevans0

Here’s a few more pics for anyone who’s interested.

I put it on to a leather strap to preserve the bracelet and it probably gets worn about once a year. Could probably do with a service can anyone recommend anyone reputable in the U.K.?


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## Hartmut Richter

A wonderful watch. I think that we had some idiot on this forum a number of years ago who had one of these melted down for scrap since he couldn't find a buyer who would pay him what he wanted..... :roll: (Or maybe it was some other solid gold Zenith model.)

As for servicing, we have a sticky on the Vintage/PW forum for this sort of thing. Here it is - I hope that it will be of some assistance:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/watch-repair-geographical-location-search-engines-3433002.html

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Interesting, bracelet marked 1/71. Could you show another pic of the back or tell us the case number? Helps to date it.


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## Rifish

Davidevans0 said:


> Here's a few more pics for anyone who's interested.
> 
> I put it on to a leather strap to preserve the bracelet and it probably gets worn about once a year. Could probably do with a service can anyone recommend anyone reputable in the U.K.?


Thanks for these pics. It is such a unique piece with that gold bracelet.

What would you and others say about the case of this watch: Has it been ever polished? Edges of the case seems to be very sharp. And does it have exactly the same design of the case as on steel Defy?


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## Davidevans0

To my knowledge is has never been polished as it has never been owned by anyone other than my grandfather and myself. He used to stock zenith watches in his shop back in the day and I guess this was one that he took with him when he closed up shop along with an El Primero that I also recently posted about. 

Photo of back of watch attached.


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## WTSP

Hartmut Richter said:


> A wonderful watch. I think that we had some idiot on this forum a number of years ago who had one of these melted down for scrap since he couldn't find a buyer who would pay him what he wanted..... :roll: (Or maybe it was some other solid gold Zenith model.)
> 
> As for servicing, we have a sticky on the Vintage/PW forum for this sort of thing. Here it is - I hope that it will be of some assistance:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/watch-repair-geographical-location-search-engines-3433002.html
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I remember that. It was a solid gold Espada Martel based watch. They destroyed it for the gold. I didn't want to mention it here so as not to encourage the practice.


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## Hartmut Richter

Dang! You just missed out on the symmetrical serial number (177E771).

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

The gold El Primero G381 is superb, but this stunning gold Zenith Defy ref G 20672 is much rarer. 

Still Zenith made at least two production runs of this model : one in 1969 (with cal 2552 PC) and this one in 1971 with cal. 2562 PC and '28800' dial.

However they are so rare that no collectors are searching for them. 

Moreover these gold Defy's are very heavy in gold. 

As a result the few gold Defy's that were around were often sold for their weight in gold. 

On a few occasions I've seen the dials and the movement sold separately, meaning the case was melted. 

This is one of the few surviving and absolutely spectacular for its condition.


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## Andy I

I finally got round to getting the dial refurbished for my 1972 DEFY. I managed to polish the original crystal which came up remarkably well (IMHO!).
Everything else is as it was in 1972 when I bought it. Case number 336d640. Bracelet 3/70. It is good to be wearing an old friend again!
Here are some rather poor photos, I'll get some better ones in the daylight.


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## sempervivens

Hi Andy, Glad it worked out. Great to see this beautiful Zenith Defy A3651 still on the wrist of its first owner.


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## Rifish

Rifish said:


> -A3644(?) Shampagne white dial with almost square chunky indeces that were used also on El Primero Espada. Made only with cal. 2552PC. A rare one.


The Heritage Department of Zenith told me that this is reference A3673, not A3644 as we assumed.


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## Rifish

Here a a picture of my Zenith Gay Freres Ladder bracelet. I just noticed that it has integrated endlinks, not ZC enlinks like there usually is on octagonal Defy model. Has any one seen these before?


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## sempervivens

Sorry for the late reply. My experience is that the endlinks sometimes have been substituted by other endlinks, however only the ZC endlinks are original.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> My experience is that the endlinks sometimes have been substituted by other endlinks, however only the ZC endlinks are original.


Yes, I know that but these are intresting ones while they have exactly the same design as the bracelet have. For example that centre part of the endlink looks like centre link of the bracelet. Of course it can be a replacement part but if so, very well made one.


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## Bever

Hello,

Wanted to share a striped down zenith defy A 3643 for anyone attempting to replace the crystal.
Acquired it 2 days ago and the mineral crystal was the worst I have ever seen - It looked like I had a very rough life - You could not see the dial very well through it.
But the case is still sharp, so I bought it.

The crystal is pressed to the rubber gasket on the case with a metal ring that screws on. Good construction, because the watch was rated 300m

To remove this ring, I removed the movement, cleaned the case in an ultrasonic and applied a little WD40 for about an hour (it did not eat away the rubber seal)
The ring is normal right handed thread and it came off without to much trouble with a bergeon case tool (N) 5338 witch was made to remove aquastar and other cases without slots.
It has 2 pins on every side which grip the corners of the case/ring

Now I am attempting to remove the scratches on the crystal - I this does not work out, I would like to hear your suggestions on replacement crystals (ebay?)


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## Zenithconnoisseur

My vintage Zenith defy. Does anyone have more information about the reference ? Mainly came across the blue variant.

Cheers,
Zenithconnoisseur


























Sent from my BV9500Plus using Tapatalk


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## Hartmut Richter

I'm sorry but the dial is damaged. It used to have applied markers but these have all gone and been replaced with (badly applied) lume dots. The ones further above in the thread show you what it should look like.

Hartmut Richter


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## Zenithconnoisseur

Hartmut Richter said:


> I'm sorry but the dial is damaged. It used to have applied markers but these have all gone and been replaced with (badly applied) lume dots. The ones further above in the thread show you what it should look like.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Hi Hartmut, thank you for the reply. I already suspected a relume had been applied when I bought the watch , but still very happy with the overall look of the watch. Greetings ,

Sent from my BV9500Plus using Tapatalk


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## sempervivens

This is a model with sunken indices and blue dial, but the blue colour often gets lost. Yours is either a redial or it has lost the blue colour in a remarkably even fashion. It has surely been (re)lumed which was overdone. The reference is A 3651.


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## Rifish

I found this intresting Defy that one Finnish watchmaker is selling. It seems to have the same hands and dial of a rare reference A3673 with indeces that were used also on El Primero Espada. Movement is 2552 PC as also on A3673. Intresting thing is that this has a golden bezel and "smokey"/yellow glass.

https://kellotori.fi/zenithn-defy-org-savulasi

Has anyone seen this before? A frankenwatch?


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## Hartmut Richter

It looks perfectly OK (including indices) except for the golden bezel. The crystal might have deteriorated if it's plexiglass (although I believe that these had mineral crystals so it would have to be a substitute). At the same time, it's not the sort of thing that would have been made post hoc for the watch as a replacement. Unless there was such a reference - and I certainly have never seen one - it may well be a _mariage _made using a wrong replacement bezel from a solid gold reference.

Hartmut Richter


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## Rifish

Hartmut Richter said:


> It looks perfectly OK (including indices) except for the golden bezel. The crystal might have deteriorated if it's plexiglass (although I believe that these had mineral crystals so it would have to be a substitute). At the same time, it's not the sort of thing that would have been made post hoc for the watch as a replacement. Unless there was such a reference - and I certainly have never seen one - it may well be a _mariage _made using a wrong replacement bezel from a solid gold reference.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Yes, by frankenwatch I meant that golden bezel - while it is not an orginal part (?) of this reference, it can be called a frankenwatch. Otherwise everything looks ok. Although it seems to have orange lume on the second hand. My A3673 has white/cream. That yellow glass is same kind of glass that Defy had orginally. I've seen before few of them.

But where that golden bezel came from - that is a mystery. Has it been installed by a local watchmaker during a service or was it sold like this? I doubt this last one but on the other hand where would a local watchmaker had found a golden bezel? After all, golden Defy models are very rare.


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## Rifish

Rifish said:


> I found this intresting Defy that one Finnish watchmaker is selling. It seems to have the same hands and dial of a rare reference A3673 with indeces that were used also on El Primero Espada. Movement is 2552 PC as also on A3673. Intresting thing is that this has a golden bezel and "smokey"/yellow glass.
> 
> https://kellotori.fi/zenithn-defy-org-savulasi
> 
> Has anyone seen this before? A frankenwatch?


Ok, so I talked with the watchmaker who is selling this and it seems that this is so called bi-colour Defy-model and it was orginally sold like this. So I guess we have another "new" Defy model.


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## Hartmut Richter

Wowee! I'd love to see a catalogue piccie for that one..... - if only to get the precise reference number.

Hartmut Richter


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## Rifish

I couldn't resist this cool "two-tone" Defy. I think I'm a Defyholic


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## sempervivens

Congratulations! Looks cool, a rare if not unique piece and in great condition. It looks a lot like the 'Defy de luxe', but with the advantage it's not entirely made of gold.
The crystal ring is in solid 18 K gold I presume? And the crystal itself, is it mineral glass or plexi? And what's the bracelet date? A lot of questions from another Defyholic


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Congratulations! Looks cool, a rare if not unique piece and in great condition. It looks a lot like the 'Defy de luxe', but with the advantage it's not entirely made of gold.
> The crystal ring is in solid 18 K gold I presume? And the crystal itself, is it mineral glass or plexi? And what's the bracelet date? A lot of questions from another Defyholic


Thanks! It's just reasonable that sometimes I get to try to answer questions, often it is the other way around

I talked with the watchmaker who sold this to me and he worked for the company that apparently imported/sold Zenith watches on 70's. Nowadays he repairs and sell watches independently. He told that he has seen few of these over the years so it is not unique piece but quite rare one. He called this bi-colour Defy. "Often" nowadays that glass has been changed to normal one and gold from the bezel is worn out. So the bezel is gilded, not solid 18 k gold as on Defy de luxe.

The glass is same kind of mineral glass that other Defy models have. It is just yellow (picture below). The hands, dial and markers are all the same as on my A3673. Only the glass and bezel are different.

Bracelet is dated 2/71 and there is a reason to believe that it is orginal while watchmaker bought this from it's orginal owner. Of course it is possible that it was changed.

If you can estimate when this was made (late 1970?/early 1971?), please let me know, thanks!


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## sempervivens

I would estimate the production date as December 1969 or early in 1970 (based on the case number).


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## Hartmut Richter

The whole thing is original? Well, you learn something every day.....

Thanks, both of you, for the information!

Hartmut Richter


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## Rifish

Here is another picture (sorry, it's a bit blurry) where A3673 and bi-colour Defy are side by side. As I wrote earlier bi-colour Defy has the same cream white dial and steel markers and hands but that yellow glass make them look like gold coloured.


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## SilkeN

Here I can play with recently









DEFY 1969 of the first generation....but it looks a bid strange with the date on the position of the three and a quite big crown. This is easily to explain: The size differ. It match perfect with my wrist but its probably a bid smal for a lot other persons here :-d








Inhouse movement 1724c (men 2542), screwed crown. GF strap 1/72 from a simular but destroyed Defy, 28,6x 35 mm in size

The view from the side is simular








Enjoy her
Silke


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## sempervivens

@ Rifish: congratulations, a great picture of not one but two very rare Defy models!

@ Silke: congratulations, it looks very elegant!


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## Hartmut Richter

First generation Defy - but obviously the ladies' version! The crown must be a replacement though..... Nevertheless, a wonderful watch and probably an unusual one. You see so many of the gents' versions (most recently even a bicolor one that has escaped me up to now) that we tend to forget that they made quite a few of the larger ones in "his 'n' hers" versions. Many thanks for posting that.

Hartmut Richter


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## SilkeN

@Hartmut The crown is as well a screwed one with the double sealing. It not a replacement in size and perfect srewable with the case. I guess this female model has the same waterproof as the male one with 300 meter. Unfortunately I find no data-sheed for the female model. The Zenith logo might be wrong.

Regards Silke


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## Rifish

SilkeN said:


> @Hartmut The crown is as well a screwed one with the double sealing. It not a replacement in size and perfect srewable with the case. I guess this female model has the same waterproof as the male one with 300 meter. Unfortunately I find no data-sheed for the female model. The Zenith logo might be wrong.
> 
> Regards Silke


The crown has Zenith square logo which was used not before 1972 and never on octagonal Defy models which means that the crown was replaced while the watch was serviced. So it is so called replacement / service crown.

Still that is a great Zenith Defy, congrats!


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## Hartmut Richter

Yes, because of the logo, it is wrong. It is a genuine Zenith crown for that model but it must have been for a later version. That logo only appeared around 1972/73 and if your watch is a first generation Defy (and it certainly looks like it), the crown must be a service replacement. Don't worry - many Defys (and other Zeniths) of that time have that. Just enjoy the watch.

Hartmut Richter


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## Rifish

Here is my current Defy collection. Still missing at least the white one (A3643) and the gold one (de luxe). It is quite hard to find A3643 with unpolished case and good dial.


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## SilkeN

Wow


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## Rifish

We have interesting discussion on Omega Forums about octagonal Zenith Defy crystals. The main question is that how many crystal models there actually are?

My Defy watches have three different kind of crystals:

1. This crystal is domed and it is about 2 mm higher than bezel.









2. This crystal is about 1 mm higher than bezel and it seems to be even more domed than crystal above.










3. This should be the replacement crystal. It Is almost flat and almost at the same level as bezel, maybe 0.5 mm higher.










My guess is that octagonal Defy was orginally sold with two different kind of crystal and then there is this replacement crystal that was sold much later.

But here are the true Zenith experts so I'm sure that you will tell us the truth


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## sempervivens

Interesting! I agree that the third one is probably a replacement crystal. What can I say? I would add that (to make things worse) the 'other octagonal' models A 3651 (blue dial) and A364x (600 m diver) also each have a different crystal.


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## dpn

I'm finding myself really drawn to these vintage octagonal Defy watches. A cursory search on eBay shows several examples from Eastern Europe that, to my eyes at least, look decent. I've heard that watches from this region are likely frankenwatches or fakes. Are there any specific notes of caution or things to look out for when shopping for a vintage Zenith Defy? Thanks all for sharing your wonderful photos and knowledge on the subject.

Here's a typical example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zenith-Def...512644?hash=item5d8f529584:g:nPwAAOSwhfZdRdmG

Its price makes it attractive, but I'm sure there are warning signs.


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## sempervivens

This looks quite nice, dial and hands are very good, and it is a fairly early example (patent pending inside) from ca. late 1969 or beginning of 1970. 
The case is somewhat polished as is often the case, this is almost inevitable and should not be a deal-breaker.
The crown is original as you can see, but the crystal is not: in profile the edge should protrude above the crystal ring, as shown by Rifish in the pictures above.
All in all not a bad example!


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## dpn

Awesome, good to know that’s a decent example. Is there any concern about buying this model from a Ukrainian seller?


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## SilkeN

You always buy the seller. I guess it is unpossible to generally draw conclusions from the seller's place of residence. I bought two very interesting Zenith pocket watches in Bulgaria even if it is known that out of this country a lot of teribble tinkered and pimped together watches are offered. Trust your knowledge, your gut and write to the seller with any question beforehand. You will see if a reasonable and serious answer comes. Use a payment method with buyer protection.

Regards Silke


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## dpn

Well, I've taken a risk on a *very* aggressively priced specimen from a domestic seller with good feedback. His photographs were really bad, so it's going to be interesting to find out what shape its in when it arrives. If it doesn't contain a Zenith movement, I'll send it back. If it does contain a Zenith movement, I'll consider some easy cosmetic fixes. If the price weren't so good, I wouldn't have taken this risk. Fingers crossed, and I'll update the forum when it arrives and I have a chance to take some photos of my own!

Here's the only somewhat-decent photograph provided by the seller. The hands and chapter markers look quite tarnished, but the dial otherwise looks okay to me. The case edges look pretty sharp, or at least many of them do. No idea on the crown, etc., but if the watch isn't as it was described to me I'll be sending it back.


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## sempervivens

Congratulations, even in battered condition, a Defy is always a gem to wear and an excellent timekeeper. The case of this specimen does look overpolished and the crown definitely not original, but the dial looks nice.


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## dpn

Ah well.

I really need to see this watch in person.

If it's in significantly worse shape than I'm hoping, I'll return it.

If it's in decent shape, then I have a few options.

I found a set of 2552PC hands on eBay that look good. They're definitely aged and have a lot of patina, but they look like they're in much better condition than the hands arriving with this specimen.









Additionally, I've found some NOS Zenith crowns and can put the correct crown on the watch, provided that it doesn't look too new and out of place.

*I was planning on putting a new crystal in. Does anyone know the dimensions of the A3642 crystal?*

I'm thinking about doing all of this not to create a frankenwatch or to preserve its value as original, but to cobble together an affordable and aesthetically pleasing vintage watch to wear. I was planning on doing this work myself.

If the cost of patching up this specimen exceeds the cost of buying another, better condition, example, then I'll just hold out for something better. If the dial and case look significantly worse in person than they do in the pictures, I'll return it. I took a risk on this specific auction because my low-ball offer was accepted.

*So, in light of the above, does anyone know the part number or dimensions of the crown for the A3642? Here is the eBay listing for NOS Zenith crowns.* The eBay listing doesn't include parts numbers, unfortunately, but it does provide dimensions.


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## sempervivens

I don't think the correct crown is in the listing. You might consider enjoying this watch 'as is'. It could be an interesting first experience with the Zenith Defy. Then later you might find a better specimen. 

To rebuild this one with new hands, crown, crown tube, crystal - and having it repolished ? - may become a more tiresome road than buying a better one in the first place.

Of course if the hands are not too expensive you could add at least those.


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## dpn

sempervivens said:


> To rebuild this one with new hands, crown, crown tube, crystal - and having it repolished ? - may become a more tiresome road than buying a better one in the first place.
> 
> Of course if the hands are not too expensive you could add at least those.


I'd be replacing the hands and crystal myself, which I enjoy doing. But the costs of doing that are likely to creep up to the territory of just buying a better specimen. This is why I need to see the watch in hand to know whether it'll be worth it. I suspect that it won't be.

I have a *lot* of experience with vintage camera restoration, but vintage watch restoration is something else entirely. I enjoy working on watches, but may have bitten off more than I can chew with the specific Zenith Defy I have incoming. I'll know as soon as I receive it, which should be next Wednesday. Better pictures forthcoming, and I'll update the forum on my thought process as to whether I keep it or throw it back.

I will say that I remain absolutely enchanted by this family of watches, and know that a nice vintage octagonal Defy is in my future!


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## dpn

Unfortunately, the watch I received did not meet my (fairly low) expectations and I've returned it to the seller.

The dial was in better condition than I had expected from the poor photos the seller provided.

The hands were in poor condition, with the lume missing entirely from the seconds hand and half missing from the hour hand.

The case was grossly overpolished.

The real problem was with the movement: The date did not advance either normally by advancing the time or via any sort of crown setting I could determine. The crown was nonoriginal, didn't match the color of the case, and very difficult to use; the action was quite mushy, and I couldn't get the crown to stay locked in the time advance setting. I could have forgiven the poor hands and overpolished case, but the date/movement/crown problems were too much to ignore. I paid the seller $300 for this watch, and it would have been an okay deal (even adding $180 for a replacement set of hands) if the movement and crown were fine. I did not bother to open up the watch's back because I wanted to get it returned to the seller ASAP, and didn't want to risk scratching the case or damaging the movement for a quick photograph.

I will say that I thought the watch model was gorgeous; the size was perfect, the case shape and dial are absolutely delightful, and it felt perfect on my wrist. I had been lusting after something a little "avant garde", and had even been considering saving up for one of the current Zenith Defy Classic models. I can say, with confidence, that these classic octagonal Zenith Defys scratch that itch perfectly. I'm quite enthusiastic about finding a better specimen!


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## Hartmut Richter

I'm sorry that it didn't work out for you but I share your sentiments. A wonderful watch, in principle, but some specimens are too far gone to resurrect - at least on an economical basis. You will find another one that suits your tastes and expectations more than that one.

Hartmut Richter


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## dpn

Hello everyone,

I would beg your indulgence one more time to help me determine whether this is a good specimen for purchase:










(Many additional photos here.)

The watch has obviously been serviced (and may be a hodgepodge of parts from different watches -- no idea!), but to me this appears to be an asset rather than a detriment.

The case does not look (to me anyway) to be overpolished, and the presence of the correct crown and bracelet are quite nice. In short, this looks like a nicely restored, aesthetically pleasing watch that will be perfect for wear. (I'm more interested in overall aesthetics rather than originality of all pieces.)

Am I missing anything? Are there any red flags I'm not seeing?

Thank you all again for your expertise,

Daniel Neal


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## Hartmut Richter

Hmmmmm. The crown is not original, at least not to the watch (only to the model line) since it has the later logo, the dial has some issues (although tenable) and the case *has* been overpolished IMO. It's OK if the price is right and you are willing to live with the issues but I'm sure there are a few here who would look for a better one.

Hartmut Richter


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## dpn

Hartmut Richter said:


> Hmmmmm. The crown is not original, at least not to the watch (only to the model line) since it has the later logo, the dial has some issues (although tenable) and the case *has* been overpolished IMO. It's OK if the price is right and you are willing to live with the issues but I'm sure there are a few here who would look for a better one.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thank you for the insights Hartmut. The price was good (< $750), and so I'm giving it a try. If it's not great in person, I'll send it back. It's certainly a better specimen than my last attempt, although I wish the markers were the other (chunky? ridged?) style.

Do you know what specific year and model this watch is? [*Edit*: I'll wait to look at the serial number and see if this dates the watch.] Comparing it to some of the examples in this thread, it looks like a "A3643 Silverwhite dial with elongated indices. Made with cal. 2552PC and cal. 2562PC (latest versions text 28800 on the dial)". *Do you know if this model was offered on a leather strap, or only with the bracelet?*

[*Edit*: I've realized that I hadn't appreciated what an unpolished Zenith Defy looked like before stumbling on @sempervivens's earlier post here. Wow, there's a significant difference between an unpolished watch with the original brushed finish intact and the overpolished example I've purchased. This watch does look better than my earlier attempt, and it's probably not in my budget to find a really good unpolished specimen like @sempervivens was able to show. I'm hoping that this watch is good enough to keep, but I certainly retract my statement that it didn't appear overpolished to me! For the benefit of anyone following along, here is @sempervivens's photograph showing a nicely brushed and not-overpolished A3643.]










Cheers,

Daniel Neal


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## sempervivens

It's very rare to find an unpolished an unused Defy, but a polished one can still be very wearable.

Polished cases also tend to lose the case number. Let's wait and see. Considering the reference and the 28800 dial it is anyway most likely it dates to 1971 or '72.


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## dpn

sempervivens said:


> It's very rare to find an unpolished an unused Defy, but a polished one can still be very wearable.
> 
> Polished cases also tend to lose the case number. Let's wait and see. Considering the reference and the 28800 dial it is anyway most likely it dates to 1971 or '72.


That's my plan. Thank you and @Hartmut Richter for very patiently answering my questions and for sharing your knowledge with the forum. I'll update folks when the watch arrives.


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## dpn

Ah man, this one looks really nice. I'm guessing the crystal isn't original, but the case and dial look _nice_:









Zenith Automatic Watch Defy Vintage 1960s | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Zenith Automatic Watch Defy Vintage 1960s at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





I've sent the seller some questions to learn more about the watch's service history, how its working, etc.


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## sempervivens

That is excellent, the crystal also looks original


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## dpn

sempervivens said:


> That is excellent, the crystal also looks original


It's on its way to me. Can't wait!


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## dpn

Update: I'm still waiting for the seller to ship me that unpolished Defy. I did get more history on it: It was purchased in 1972, worn briefly, and stuck in a safe for 48 years. Kind of cool, but it'll definitely need a service.


----------



## sempervivens

Congratulations, like I said, very rare to find an unpolished and perfect example like that.


----------



## dpn

It took a long time due to eBay issues, but finally I have my 1972 Zenith Defy in hand. I'll be doing a "glamour photoshoot" with it in the next couple of days, but here's a quick snapshot I took in harsh midday sun with my iPhone.










1. The watch is awesome in person. It is completely unpolished, and the seller confirmed that his father bought it new in 1972, wore it briefly, and stuck it in a safe. The seller inherited the watch at his father's recent passing, and put it on eBay. Its crown, crystal, bracelet, etc. are all original. The dial, hands, and markers are _gorgeous_.

2. I'm enjoying the original Gay Frères bracelet a great deal more than I anticipated. I had planned on putting this watch on a nice leather strap, but I think I'm going to keep it on the bracelet for the foreseeable future.

3. I don't have the correct tool to unscrew the back, and it's screwed on a little too tightly for my rubber ball opener to get into. Because of this, I won't be able to get a picture of the movement before I send this watch off for service.

4. The watch is keeping good time -- it's averaging -6s between all positions. Its amplitude is only hitting 180-200°, so this watch is definitely in need of an overhaul.

5. I was surprised to find that this movement doesn't have a quick set date. The crown has two positions, as far as I can tell: winding, and time setting. Manually setting the date took awhile, but so it goes. When it does switch over, the date wheel turns almost instantly to the new date.

6. There's some black "crud" around the edges of the crystal. I suspect that there was some sort of rubber gasket that has deteriorated over time. I'm curious about how to best proceed here: I would expect an overhaul to replace the rubber gasket, but I'm concerned that there will points where the black crud has adhered to the dial. There's a particularly big "glob" of this stuff between the 11 and 12 markers that's worrisome. That bit isn't visible in the photo above, but there is a chunk between the date window and the 5 marker that's casting a visible shadow in the picture. I'm really worried that this deteriorated stuff will fall onto the dial and wreak havoc.

7. The tritium lume does light up under a blacklight, but it fades almost instantly. This is not at all surprising, and is good evidence that the watch is original.

8. All in all, I'm delighted by this watch. It definitely warrants an overhaul, and right now I'm torn between sending it Zenith in Le Locle or just to a trusted and recommended watch repairer. Ordinarily, I wouldn't consider sending it to Zenith, but this is a particularly nice specimen that might be worth the cost.


----------



## sempervivens

Congrats, you got really lucky and the price was good as well. 

Date quickset for this movement (cal 2562 PC) is by turning the hands between 7 pm and midnight. The date should snap over at midnight so that is correct.

The melted crystal gasket wasn't that visible in the sellers pictures. It will be hard to clean, and can leave stains on the glass ring on the inside, however the dial should not be affected.


----------



## dpn

sempervivens said:


> The melted crystal gasket wasn't that visible in the sellers pictures. It will be hard to clean, and can leave stains on the glass ring on the inside, however the dial should not be affected.


This is the primary reason I'm thinking about sending this watch into Le Locle: My hope would be either that they'd be able to clean the original crystal, or would be able to replace the crystal with an exact/correct replacement. I'll try to get a better picture of the goop hanging over the dial, but it looks like it's one jarring impact away from breaking off from the main mass of deteriorated gasket and falling onto the dial (where it will foul hands, etc.).

{UPDATE: I got a better picture, and it looks to me like at least some of the goop has already broken free and stuck to the dial. At least the hands aren't fouling, and hopefully the dial won't be too discolored underneath it.}










Also, thanks for the note on how to quickly advance the date -- I just tried it and it works exactly as you described. That's a much better solution than manually advancing the hands 24 hours to advance the date wheel by one day.

Thank you for encouraging me to hold out for a better example than my prior two attempts! I know that I got really lucky here, and will be treating this watch well.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

The only Cal. 25x2 with quickset date was the 2572 C (or PC). That was achieved in the same way as on the El Primero with the result that the date is set in the "2" position whereas the time is set in the "1" position.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## dpn

Hartmut Richter said:


> The only Cal. 25x2 with quickset date was the 2572 C (or PC). That was achieved in the same way as on the El Primero with the result that the date is set in the "2" position whereas the time is set in the "1" position.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Fascinating Hartmut, thanks for clarifying. The quickset method described by @sempervirens is a nice workaround, although it did feel weird to be messing with the hands in the time period that the date changes over.

I really want to find a case back opener for my Zenith to get some photographs of the movement and see if any watch repairers left notes on its service history.

I've written to Zenith to see if they'll take on repairing this specific watch. I described the disintegrating rubber/plastic crystal gasket, and stated that if it's possible I'd like the original crystal cleaned. Failing that, I've asked for a correct crystal replacement. I also asked for a rough estimate of the repair cost. I'm willing to pay quite a bit to have this watch serviced: It has really grown on me!


----------



## Hartmut Richter

cuckoowasp said:


> Fascinating Hartmut, thanks for clarifying. The quickset method described by @sempervirens is a nice workaround, although it did feel weird to be messing with the hands in the time period that the date changes over.


The "to-and-fro" method described by sempervivens actually works for one hell of a lot of old movements, including generic ones (e.g. ETA 2472) - on anything with a rapid date change, actually. It can get a little tedious, though, if you need to get to the 31st of the month and the watch is set to the first.....!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## dpn

Update, if anyone is interested:

1. I submitted my repair request form for the Zenith "Send Us Your Watch" service program five days ago. I haven't heard a peep back from them (not even an automated response indicating that they've received my request), and I had questions to ask before deciding to ship my watch to Le Locle. Because I expect their price to be high and worry about how they'll communicate, I've decided against sending my Defy to Zenith for factory service. (For a new watch under warranty, I would not hesitate to use either Zenith's factory service or any of Zenith's authorized repair shops.)

2. I'm FedExing my A3642 to a recommended watch repair shop tomorrow. This shop was happy to talk me through my concerns and their price quote isn't unreasonable. They're going to attempt to clean the original crystal and will work with me to find a correct crystal if the original can't be salvaged. They're also willing to try to pick off the little bits of goo that are stuck on the dial, if they believe they can do it safely and I waive their potential liability. That sounds fair to me, and there's a chance that the dial will actually turn out to be fine one they get the movement out of the case. Fingers crossed!


----------



## dpn

Update on my A3642, if anyone is curious:
1) After three weeks, Zenith finally responded to my repair request. They didn't answer any of my questions about the repair, but instead just directed me to mail my watch to address in the US where, I assume, it'd be forwarded along to Le Locle for work. I stand by my original opinion: For warranty work, they're probably just fine.
2) I haven't gotten the estimate back from the repair shop I mailed my watch to yet. I'll ping them if I haven't heard anything by the end of next week (three weeks seems like a fair time to come up with an estimate).
3) The seller did provide me with a touch more original information about his father, the original purchaser. This was was purchased in Paris in 1972. If I were wealthy, it'd be fun to spring for the $400 research service Zenith provides. As it is, I'm happy just knowing that my watch came from Paris in 1972.


----------



## sempervivens

Thanks for the additional information!


----------



## dpn

So, I have an unhappy update on my A3642: I just received this note from the watch repair shop:"_[Name] is trying his best but it looks like we may have to deny service as we are having a ton of trouble getting it open. Caseback gaskets have seized up and the watch is not water resistant so we cannot boil it off. We are gonna give it one last shot tomorrow._"

At the risk of offending the shop, I did ask for confirmation that they had been trying to open the caseback with the correct Zenith hexadecagon die. No word back yet on that.

I've solicited some advice from a watch repair forum I frequent, in the hope that there might be a somewhat more aggressive but still reasonably safe way to open the case. I wouldn't mind some scratches in the caseback if that's the only way of getting it open.

Unless I hear of any other alternatives, I suspect that I'll need to send the watch to Zenith in Le Locle for a lengthy and expensive repair. I feel like, in the worst case, Zenith might be able to supply me with a (very expensive) NOS caseback for this watch.

I honestly didn't realize that this problem was even possible, but I guess I should have anticipated this risk when buying a watch that has moldered in a safe for 40 years. I had factored in an expensive overhaul when I purchased this watch, but not a repair that will likely exceed my original purchase price.

I could not in good conscience attempt to sell this watch without offering a really significant discount and fully disclosing this problem.

Further updates as they develop ...

(On another note, I never did receive the other Defy I purchased on June 29. That was a frustrating experience: The seller described his location as the UK, but actually lived and mailed the watch from Poland. A couple of weeks after the sale, the seller told me that he had shipped the watch via airmail but it had been returned to him because of COVID. I would have asked to cancel the sale at that point, but the seller had already mailed the watch to me again via "slow" mail. While he did provide me with a tracking number, there hasn't been any movement on it since July 14th. I opened a case and eBay/PayPal ruled in my favor. Thank goodness I got a full refund. I wonder if I will ever receive this watch. I told the seller that if I ever receive this watch, I will pay him for it immediately and apologize for doubting him ... but I highly doubt that I'm actually going to see the watch.)


----------



## watchhunterandcollector

Honestly, I wouldn't trust I watchmaker saying that they were even thinking about boiling the watch! I would take it home and superglue a nut to the case back. Then you can yourself remove the back with a wrench. THEN you can boil the lid to get the nut off! I have done this many times and it never fails when all other methods do. I'm not a watchmaker, but after loosening the back and taking some picture I gladly hand it over to my watchmaker of choice;-)


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## sempervivens

I once had the same problem with one Defy.


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## dpn

Here's a thread on the Watch Repair Talk forum (it's a great site) where folks are opining about how to best tackle this problem. @watchhunterandcollector, there's uniform horror at the idea of boiling this watch. There are some really good potential suggestions that I'm open to trying, but I'd feel a lot better if I had the correct Zenith die and an appropriate watch vice.

@sempervivens How did you resolve the problem with your Defy?

I'm realizing that I'm comfortable with potentially scratching or marring this caseback, if the alternative is completely losing this watch or a $2,000 nine-month visit to Le Locle.


----------



## medinatalzahra

sempervivens said:


> The gold El Primero G381 is superb, but this stunning gold Zenith Defy ref G 20672 is much rarer.
> 
> Still Zenith made at least two production runs of this model : one in 1969 (with cal 2552 PC) and this one in 1971 with cal. 2562 PC and '28800' dial.
> 
> However they are so rare that no collectors are searching for them.
> 
> Moreover these gold Defy's are very heavy in gold.
> 
> As a result the few gold Defy's that were around were often sold for their weight in gold.
> 
> On a few occasions I've seen the dials and the movement sold separately, meaning the case was melted.
> 
> This is one of the few surviving and absolutely spectacular for its condition.


Absolutely amazing watch. This is a true safe queen. This gold model is now officially added to this Zenith collector's hunting list....


----------



## sempervivens

After the master watchmaker (a Zenith expert) had tried all kinds of traditional methods in vain (it really is the safe-box of time!) I insisted if he could not use a more drastic way. He then replied very elegantly that he didn't want to suggest it himself, but since I insisted, he could open it by drilling a small hole in the back. This worked. Afterwards he filled the hole with a sort of metallic paste, making it almost invisible. I am very satisfied with the result. The watch still has the original back, and I do not find the damage disturbing.



cuckoowasp said:


> Here's a thread on the Watch Repair Talk forum (it's a great site) where folks are opining about how to best tackle this problem. @watchhunterandcollector, there's uniform horror at the idea of boiling this watch. There are some really good potential suggestions that I'm open to trying, but I'd feel a lot better if I had the correct Zenith die and an appropriate watch vice.
> 
> @sempervivens How did you resolve the problem with your Defy?
> 
> I'm realizing that I'm comfortable with potentially scratching or marring this caseback, if the alternative is completely losing this watch or a $2,000 nine-month visit to Le Locle.


----------



## dpn

sempervivens said:


> After the master watchmaker (a Zenith expert) had tried all kinds of traditional methods in vain (it really is the safe-box of time!) I insisted if he could not use a more drastic way. He then replied very elegantly that he didn't want to suggest it himself, but since I insisted, he could open it by drilling a small hole in the back. This worked. Afterwards he filled the hole with a sort of metallic paste, making it almost invisible. I am very satisfied with the result. The watch still has the original back, and I do not find the damage disturbing.


Thanks for that additional information. I find myself in a very similar position: I'm totally fine with some scratches on the caseback, if it's the only way forward.


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## sempervivens

I have to correct myself, the watchmaker had to make two small holes of course, not just one. And they are quite visible depending on the light. Still not disturbing to me; I'll post some pics later.


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## watchhunterandcollector

sempervivens said:


> I have to correct myself, the watchmaker had to make two small holes of course, not just one. And they are quite visible. I'll post some pics later.


That will indeed be interesting to see! I will soon pickup my first Defy A3642 with an 2552PC movement at my watchmaker. I was lucky enough to not encounter opening problems, but good to get additional solutions if needed in the future!


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## sempervivens

Ok here is a picture which clearly shows the holes the watchmaker made to open up this safe-box.


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## dpn

Those holes wouldn't trouble me. Hopefully things won't get to that point. I'm just waiting to receive my watch back from the repair person who was unable to open it.

*Provided I can get the back open, can anyone recommend a trusted repair person in the US for my vintage Defy? *


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## Hartmut Richter

cuckoowasp said:


> *Provided I can get the back open, can anyone recommend a trusted repair person in the US for my vintage Defy?*


On the Vintage/PW forum, there is a sticky with some suggestions:









Watch repair by geographical location (search engines)


Looking for a watchmaker who can and does service vintage watches and is near you? There are many independent watchmakers who eschew any affiliation, but failing a personal recommendation, the best way to start is to contact watchmakers who are members of trade or professional associations...




www.watchuseek.com





Good luck!

Hartmut Richter


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## dpn

Here's the current status: I received the watch back from its service today. I could not see any signs of damage from their attempts to open it, which is good. I've glued a 1 1/8" nut onto its back. I centered the nut as best I could, and it's glued onto a very flat and smooth portion of the back. (I had tried to get a bigger nut, but this was the best I could do. I'm sure that, if this method will work, it will work with a 1 1/8" nut.)

The glue is curing for 24 hours, and at that point I'll be working to open it with a 1 1/8" wrench on a case vise that I've mounted in a bench vice. Hopefully the case vise will be ok, but if it's not I'll brace the watch with some wood on the bench vice. If my initial attempts are unsuccessful, I'll try careful heating at a single point with a soldering iron and/or the liquid from a can of Dust-Off to cool it down at a single point.









@Hartmut Richter Thank you for reminding me where the repair recommendations were located on this site.

On another note, I'm planning on trying on a current Zenith Defy Classic over the weekend. That should be fun!


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## dpn

Well, that was so easy as to be anticlimactic.

I figured 30 minutes was enough curing for a glue I would be removing with acetone anyway, so I gave it a shot using my desktop jeweler's vise (cushioned by some soft plastic). I wouldn't have tried this without a case vice except that I noticed the design of the lugs gave two nice reinforced perpendicular surfaces that would fit easily into a jeweler's vice without significant risk of damage. Slow, even pressure with a 1 1/8" wrench opened the caseback on my first attempt. Easy peasy.

Thanks all for the advice!


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## Hartmut Richter

Congratulations! Well, at least the movement is squeaky clean.....!

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Excellent. And this nut is coming off without any traces? Wish I had seen this before. An excellent piece of advice from watchunterandcollector.


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## dpn

sempervivens said:


> Excellent. And this nut is coming off without any traces? Wish I had seen this before. An excellent piece of advice from watchunterandcollector.


The nut popped off easily after soaking the caseback in acetone. I used a piece of pegwood to wedge it off. The remnants of the superglue scrubbed off easily with acetone and pegwood, as did the deteriorated gasket.

I took folks' advice and looked up a couple of repair people from the NAWCC directory. I had a delightful chat with a watch repair person, and my Zenith is currently en route to him via FedEx. Quoted price? $385 plus parts cost, and a 2-3 week turnaround time. (He says that he's unusually slow right now due to COVID, as most of his work usually comes from the larger jewelry retailers in his region.) I've also mailed him my Rolex Ref. 1002 that I've been meaning to get serviced for a few years now.

If anyone is curious, here's the thread on a watch repair forum in which folks gave me great advice on how to open this caseback. There are additional options if the basic superglue + nut trick doesn't work.


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## sempervivens

In fact it is possible that the superglue trick wouldn't have worked for my Defy as the thread was also fused with thick rust. Yours only had a degraded gasket. Still if it happens again (so far in my vast collection of Defy's it has happened only once) I will definitely try the superglue and nut.


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## MrDagon007

Love mine.


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## dpn

Gorgeous @MrDagon007!


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## Rifish

I found another Zenith Defy that has a yellow glass, but this time on ref. A3642. I first thought that someone has found this cool yellow glass and changed it to this one. But then I found out that the serial number of this watch is close to my bi-colour Defy that was orginally sold with yellow glass.

Ok, I still think that this was most likely sold with the normal clear glass but maybe there is a small change that this yellow glass is the orginal one? Maybe this was some kind of test from Zenith?


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## sempervivens

Amazing. Still this yellow glass looks better on your white Defy with gilded bezel.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Amazing. Still this yellow glass looks better on your white Defy with gilded bezel.


I agree although this looks better in live. It is quite hard to take a good picture of that dial with the yellow glass. This glass is in really good shape, but it not as high and doesn't look as bright yellow as the glass on bi-colour Defy. I guess that's why it makes that grey dial look a bit more blurry and dark.

Still I guess this is one mystery more for vintage Defy lineup. Hard to say what this is about.


----------



## sempervivens

Another thing if I'm not mistaken is that these yellow glasses have only been spotted in Sweden.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Another thing if I'm not mistaken is that these yellow glasses have only been spotted in Sweden.


No, no, no, in Finland Still, a great point. I've seen two ones on bi-colour case and this is the third one.


----------



## dpn

Quick Update:

My Zenith's dial is fine. _phew_ I was really worried about crystal gasket goo on it.

The bad news is that it needs a new canon pinion. I don't doubt that it does, but I'm curious as to how it became damaged after sitting in a safe for nearly 50 years.


----------



## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Amazing. Still this yellow glass looks better on your white Defy with gilded bezel.


Here are these fellows together. This ref. A3642 with yellow glass looks actually quite good in real life so I'm thinking that could this actually be some kind of experiment from Zenith? It is hard to take a good picture from it.

This yellow glass could also be just a replacement glass for that bi-colour Defy but someone has installed it to this A3642.

As we can see on the picture below, the glass is different on these two. But we can see this same variation on clear glass.


----------



## sempervivens

cuckoowasp said:


> Quick Update:
> 
> My Zenith's dial is fine. _phew_ I was really worried about crystal gasket goo on it.
> 
> The bad news is that it needs a new canon pinion. I don't doubt that it does, but I'm curious as to how it became damaged after sitting in a safe for nearly 50 years.


The canon pinion of the Zenith Defy often needs tightening after years of use but a new canon pinion for an unused watch is indeed odd.


----------



## sempervivens

Rifish said:


> No, no, no, in Finland Still, a great point. I've seen two ones on bi-colour case and this is the third one.


Sorry about that. My bad. Now I do remember that forum member Hessu from Finland also mentioned a yellow glass on a Defy, years ago. Maybe that could be a fourth one then.


----------



## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Sorry about that. My bad. Now I do remember that forum member Hessu from Finland also mentioned a yellow glass on a Defy, years ago. Maybe that could be a fourth one then.


Not a problem, there's just always a small ragging going on between Finland and Sweden

Yes, I remember also that Hessu wrote some years ago about that yellow glass Defy.

As I wrote below this yellow glass could also be just a replacement glass for that bi-colour Defy but someone has installed it to this A3642.


----------



## Rifish

Here is that @Hessu 's message about his white dial Defy that has also yellow glass. This one seems to have that same type of yellow glass than on my bi-colour Defy. The profile and colour are exactly the same. On my A3642 glass is not so high and colour has a bit different shade of yellow. As Hessu wrote, it was orginally sold like this.









Vintage Zenith Defy (1971)


That is pretty nice! Thanks for sharing! :-! Dan




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## dpn

Very brief update on my 1971 A3642: It's back from service, it looks gorgeous, and it's still 100% original. Total repair costs were significant but not unreasonable (just under $600), and its overhaul only took 2 weeks. My repair person kept me updated throughout the service and sent me a lot of great pictures & video throughout the process. Oh, and it's keeping great time now too: +2 seconds/day across five positions. I've been cautioned not to treat it like a waterproof watch, which is good advice for any vintage piece.

... and now I'm on the hunt for an 18k version, which has taken the place of my "grail watch" from another watch I've wanted to buy for years.


----------



## sempervivens

Indeed, the Zenith Defy is an excellent timekeeper and for that matter on a par with the El Primero. Thanks for the update and wear it in good health.


----------



## dpn




----------



## Sergei T.

@cuckoowasp - It looks like new and it's beautifully aged... just perfect!!


----------



## dpn

Sergei T. said:


> @cuckoowasp - It looks like new and it's beautifully aged... just perfect!!


Thank you! It was an odyssey to buy it and get it back into shape, that's for sure.

One of my friends said that this 18k Zenith Defy Deluxe looks like the watch of an island-dwelling Bond villain. I think this description is perfect, and this watch may have replaced my former "grail" watch. (For me, a "grail" watch is something that I know I'll never be able to find or, if found, afford.)


----------



## Rifish

Found this ref. A3643 in quite good condition. These white dial ones are nowadays quite hard to find in good conditions. Often when the case is good shape, the dial is bad and the other way around. This has good dial and hands and ok case (looks better in live). Crown is unfortunately a service crown without Zenith logo.

I think this A3643 was the last missing reference and I have now all the octagonal steel Defy references.


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## sempervivens

Congratulations on completing a beautiful collection!


----------



## 8505davids

Anyone know all the dial colours available on these octagonal Defys and the slab shaped case ones? I know of turquoise, red and coffee on the slab style 'safe of time' - was grey a dial colour for both styles?


----------



## Rifish

8505davids said:


> Anyone know all the dial colours available on these octagonal Defys and the slab shaped case ones? I know of turquoise, red and coffee on the slab style 'safe of time' - was grey a dial colour for both styles?


All the dial colors of octagonal Defy models should be shown on the first message of this thread. Just the gold dial is missing. So there should be:

1. greenish grey/brown
2. grey sand
3. silverwhite
4. anthracite/black
5. red
6. turquoise
7. champagnewhite/creamywhite
8. gold

These are the ones we know at the moment.

I think @sempervivens is the best expert to tell us what are the dial colors of tonneau case Defy models. At least there should be:

1. red
2. turquoise
3. grey sand with white ring and red "indexes"
4. copper (with day-date)
5. black (with day-date)

And three Defy Gays models with 
6. black, 
7. blue, 
8. silver dials.


----------



## Rifish

I've been thinking how rare each dial color is on octagonal Defy models. I've used to think that anthracite/black was a very common dial colour. If you think what dial colors are nowadays more often on sale, I would say that grey sand is the most common and then comes silverwhite. But you don't see very often on sale anthracite/black dial version. I'm not saying that it is a rare version but I would say that much rarer than grey sand and silverwhite version.


----------



## 8505davids

SilkeN said:


> Here I can play with recently
> 
> View attachment 15067811
> 
> 
> DEFY 1969 of the first generation....but it looks a bid strange with the date on the position of the three and a quite big crown. This is easily to explain: The size differ. It match perfect with my wrist but its probably a bid smal for a lot other persons here :-d
> 
> View attachment 15067861
> 
> Inhouse movement 1724c (men 2542), screwed crown. GF strap 1/72 from a simular but destroyed Defy, 28,6x 35 mm in size
> 
> The view from the side is simular
> View attachment 15067865
> 
> 
> Enjoy her
> Silke


Scanning through this interesting thread again I notice that the square indices of the ladies Defy are rotated 90 degrees to the gents version. There is one in pretty poor condition on fleabay at the moment and it has the same indices.


----------



## Rifish

8505davids said:


> Scanning through this interesting thread again I notice that the square indices of the ladies Defy are rotated 90 degrees to the gents version. There is one in pretty poor condition on fleabay at the moment and it has the same indices.


Yes, that is correct👍


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## Rifish

State of the Zenith Defy collection.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Nine watches for only two wrists - far too many to deal with. Please contribute to the running of this forum by sending two to my address (will be imparted by PM) - I also have two wrists to equip! I'll take the red one and the bicolor version..... 

Hartmut Richter


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## Rifish

Zenith Heritage Department kindly verified for me that this yellow glass and gold-plated bezel Defy is a genuine Defy. It is ref. A3674, nicknamed Defy Colour. What is very intresting is that there should be also another version with a grey-blue glass (with steel bezel?). I wonder what would it look like? I hope we will someday find one.


----------



## sempervivens

Excellent! You seem to have quite a good connection with the heritage department! 

Perhaps what they mean with the 'grey-blue glass' is the kaki (or gradient grey) dial with the coloured glass? Or is that yet another reference?

If I remember correctly Zenith have now confirmed to you the existence of two formerly unknown Zenith references, this A3674, and what was the other one again?

Did they also tell you (and if not could you please ask them!) which dial is the ref. A3641 and which is the A3644?


----------



## RyanK

Davidevans0 said:


> I've attached a photo of my gold one for reference.


Are your hands also gold? I have never seen the lume hands in 18K. Usually they have no lume hands just like the dial so I am wondering what is up with your watch.

Can any one spot the issue with my watch? ?


----------



## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Excellent! You seem to have quite a good connection with the heritage department!


Thanks! I'm not so sure about the connection. I just ask a lot and I guess sometimes they just feel that it easier to get rid of me by giving me some answers? Of course now I had to make a official request which costs but that is allright.



sempervivens said:


> Perhaps what they mean with the 'grey-blue glass' is the kaki (or gradient grey) dial with the coloured glass? Or is that yet another reference?
> 
> If I remember correctly Zenith have now confirmed to you the existence of two formerly unknown Zenith references, this A3674, and what was the other one again?
> 
> Did they also tell you (and if not could you please ask them!) which dial is the ref. A3641 and which is the A3644?


Actually they wrote me that there are two different references that has a coloured glass and the colour of the glass makes the distinction between these two reference:
-A3673 is with 'grey-blue' glass
-A3674 is with 'yellow' glass and gold-plated bezel

It is still a mystery for me that does A3673 also have a gold-plated bezel. I guess it should have if the colour of the glass is the only difference between these two.

On the other hand we thought earlier that this is a ref. A3673 but maybe it isn't or then the glass has been changed. I hope that I'll get soon more information about this A3673.


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## sempervivens

RyanK said:


> Are your hands also gold? I have never seen the lume hands in 18K. Usually they have no lume hands just like the dial so I am wondering what is up with your watch.
> 
> Can any one spot the issue with my watch? ?


Rifish has a rare stainless steel Defy with goldplated glass ring and yellowish crystal... and you have a rare all 18 K gold Defy... it seems the star logo on the dial is not in the correct position?


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## ezinternet

Enjoying this thread, and the wonderful information about these models.

Here is one of mine, a Turquoise/Teal A3690

(Rossler open in the background, my constant companion  )


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## RyanK

sempervivens said:


> Rifish has a rare stainless steel Defy with goldplated glass ring and yellowish crystal... and you have a rare all 18 K gold Defy... it seems the star logo on the dial is not in the correct position?


Yes, fortunately they are mounted on the dial and not glued as I thought. So it's just mounted up side down and at the next visit to the watchmaker he will try to put it in correctly.


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## RyanK

ezinternet said:


> Enjoying this thread, and the wonderful information about these models.
> 
> Here is one of mine, a Turquoise/Teal A3690
> 
> (Rossler open in the background, my constant companion  )
> 
> View attachment 15570373


Dang, they look like they are both in an amazing condition!


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## RyanK

Here are some of my defys that I have collected in the past years.


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## 8505davids

I wonder about the crowns on these Defys - I always see them with either the original Zenith 'star' crown, the later Zenith 'square' service crown ... or a third plain crown of a similar style and shape but with no insignia ....I see a few with those and they all seem to be very similar - was this a crown made by Zenith but not marked or a third party addition that was available as a non-Zenith replacement?


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## dpn

8505davids said:


> I wonder about the crowns on these Defys - I always see them with either the original Zenith 'star' crown, the later Zenith 'square' service crown ... or a third plain crown of a similar style and shape but with no insignia ....I see a few with those and they all seem to be very similar - was this a crown made by Zenith but not marked or a third party addition that was available as a non-Zenith replacement?


I'm really curious about this myself. I recently sent in my all-original 1971 A3642 in for service and explicitly requested that the repair person keep everything original. He did, but he cautioned me not to trust my Defy as waterproof because of something involving the original crown. There was a bit of a language barrier, but I think that he was trying to tell me that there was no way to replace the deteriorated rubber of the original crown, and that I'd need to sacrifice water resistance if I wanted the crown original. I've also seen quite a few Zenith Defys on eBay that don't have original crowns. If it's impossible (or prohibitively difficult or expensive) to replace rubber parts of the original crowns, then the prevalence of non-original Zenith crowns or non-Zenith replacement crowns makes a lot of sense.

If I completely misunderstood my watch repair person here, and if it's straightforward to put a commodity rubber o-ring or gasket on an original Defy crown, I'd really like to hear it. In my opinion, it's not a good idea to completely trust the water resistance of vintage watches ... but I've been _especially_ careful of my vintage Defy. I'm not at all planning to swim with it, but I'd love to be able to shower or wash my hands with it on.


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## 8505davids

cuckoowasp said:


> I'm really curious about this myself. I recently sent in my all-original 1971 A3642 in for service and explicitly requested that the repair person keep everything original. He did, but he cautioned me not to trust my Defy as waterproof because of something involving the original crown. There was a bit of a language barrier, but I think that he was trying to tell me that there was no way to replace the deteriorated rubber of the original crown, and that I'd need to sacrifice water resistance if I wanted the crown original. I've also seen quite a few Zenith Defys on eBay that don't have original crowns. If it's impossible (or prohibitively difficult or expensive) to replace rubber parts of the original crowns, then the prevalence of non-original Zenith crowns or non-Zenith replacement crowns makes a lot of sense.
> 
> If I completely misunderstood my watch repair person here, and if it's straightforward to put a commodity rubber o-ring or gasket on an original Defy crown, I'd really like to hear it. In my opinion, it's not a good idea to completely trust the water resistance of vintage watches ... but I've been _especially_ careful of my vintage Defy. I'm not at all planning to swim with it, but I'd love to be able to shower or wash my hands with it on.


I was interested really in knowing where the 'non Zenith' crowns you see on some of the watches for sale came from ... if they were all the same from one source as they look alike or different manufacturers and generally available or from Zenith themselves just not marked. I have one Defy with original crown and one with a service crown. I can see the sense in changing it for performance (not that I'll be using it in water) and the lack of original crown isn't a problem for me - indeed I'd say it shows its been attended to at least some point in its life.


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## Hartmut Richter

As far as I know, what cuckoowasp said is true - and valid for watches (or crowns) in general. The crown has a rubber gasket sort of embedded inside that sits against the crown tube on the case. This deteriorates and cannot be replaced (I presume that it requires special equipment that only crown makers have, otherwise one ought to be able to fiddle it out and press a new one in). So, if you want the old crown to remain, this compromises water resistance to the point that a really sweaty wrist or some rain water might result in the entry of water. However, it's a sacrifice worth making if the thing remains original. At the very least, I would insist that the original crown be returned to me.

The only other system that I have seen that gets round that was on an old Seiko 5! In that watch, the winding stem had two rubber gaskets that sit inside the crown tube. Even when the stem is pulled out, these are still in the tube and prevent water entry to a certain extent. I wonder why other makers don't go for that as a back up. But looking at Seiko winding stems on fleabay these days, they seem to have given up on that too..... 

Hartmut Richter


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## dpn

Thanks Hartmut for the additional explanation. I only have experience with modern Seiko crowns and stems. On those, it's trivially easy to pull the little rubber gasket off for replacement. OEM Seiko gaskets for modern Seiko stems are readily available and are quite affordable. Even if an OEM Seiko gasket weren't available, it'd be easy enough to buy an assortment of generic gaskets and find one that fits. The ease with which one can replace a gasket on a modern Seiko stem is making me suspicious about why it cannot be easily done on an original Zenith crown and stem. Without taking my own watch apart to see for myself, I guess I'll just have to trust that it cannot be done easily due to a weird size, weird design, or a specialty equipment requirement.

I'm going to see if any of the folks I know on the Watch Repair Talk forum have more insight or photos that could clarify this.


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## RyanK

8505davids said:


> I wonder about the crowns on these Defys - I always see them with either the original Zenith 'star' crown, the later Zenith 'square' service crown ... or a third plain crown of a similar style and shape but with no insignia ....I see a few with those and they all seem to be very similar - was this a crown made by Zenith but not marked or a third party addition that was available as a non-Zenith replacement?


There are two different star crowns. One which almost fills up the entire crown and one that is a lot smaller. You see those on the very early ones.


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## 8505davids

RyanK said:


> There are two different star crowns. One which almost fills up the entire crown and one that is a lot smaller. You see those on the very early ones.


Yes - but its the third type of crown you see that I was asking about - obviously a replacement as its unmarked. These unmarked crowns all look very similar so my question was - were they by Zenith just without the insignia or were they third party crowns made for the Defy, or just a generic crown?? ... in which case they might not be watertight at all...









original crown









Service or later Defy crown









unbranded 'blank' crown occasionally seen on Defys for sale - Zenith made or third party made especially for the Defy or third party generic crown??









another unbranded crown


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## Rifish

I don't think that Zenith would have made a crown without their logo. Why would they do such a thing? So that third crown must be by a third party.


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## Rifish

I got more information from the Zenith Heritage Department and I think now we know much more about these few rare Defy references A3673 and A3674.

So here in the picture below is on the left side ref. A3674 with a 'yellow' glass and a gold-plated bezel. It has also a rare creamy white dial and different indexes and hands than on the normal Defy models. Okei, this we knew before.

The one on the right side is not a ref. A3673 as I thought. It is a frankenwatch that we see time to time on sale or as a part of someone's collection. Yes, it has the same dial and hands than on the ref. 3673 but it should also have a grey-blue glass (not sure should the bezel be steel or gold-plated).

So these ones on the right are either A) a ref. A3673 but with a wrong transparent glass or B) some normal Defy model to which someone has changed the rare hands and dial.










So I guess we should know now all the octagonal Defy models. We have known for a along time the basic ones and then there should be these two rare steel ones (A3673 & A3674) and the gold ones (three different models?).


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## sempervivens

Thanks for the update! Pity it's not clear yet whether both should have a gold-plated bezel! 

And then besides 'the basic ones' (your basic khaki, white and black, and blue, turquoise and burgundy I presume), there is also the rare A 3644 (or A 3641?) with khaki dial and elongated lume indices as the white dial. 

And the rare A 3641 (or A 3644 ?) with white dial and broad steel indices as the khaki dial (or am I mistaken here and this is the newly discovered ref A3673?).

Quite the mix! So about nine or ten references in all for the octagonal models, without counting the 600 m Defy divers.


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## 8505davids

Did all octagonal Defys say 'Swiss Made T' on the bottom of the dials or were later ones marked just 'Swiss Made' - seen a couple lately with the latter


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## Skamantpt

Can anyone ID this model?? Also what happened to the thread about the early defy case numbers?


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## 8505davids

Zenith Defy with Swiss Made dial rather than Swiss Made T


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## sempervivens

Skamantpt said:


> Can anyone ID this model?? Also what happened to the thread about the early defy case numbers?


It depends on the crown, which is not visible. Anyway the model number should be on the back. Read this excellent thread : Mid seventies Defy twins: 01.0020.380 versus 01.1370.380. Based on this thread you can also determine it looking closely at the logo on the dial. This logo doesn't have a frame, therefore it should be the ref. 01.0020.380.









As for the thread about early Zenith Defy case numbers, here is a link.

@ *8505davids: *The dial with '. Swiss made.' instead of 'Swiss made T' is surely a service dial. The dots indicate the use of luminova, so it's probably a service dial from the 1990's.


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## 8505davids

Service dial was my guess too - the one I saw was very good quality with all the minute/second track bang on line with the indices and it seemed unlikely that someone could make such a good job of the dial then not get the Swiss Made T right. There was a pic of a tonneau model with the same dial on here in an earlier Defy thread and it had the same dial - perhaps Zenith just make the one colour?


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## sempervivens

Indeed, excellent quality service dials; I doubt that they made only one colour.


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## 8505davids




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## Longjean

Problem is Zenith no longer promote their brand in magazines like Country Life.
Why do Zenith no longer have a decent budget to promote their watches?


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## 8505davids

Anyone know the correct size crystal gasket?


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## WTSP

Longjean said:


> Problem is Zenith no longer promote their brand in magazines like Country Life.
> Why do Zenith no longer have a decent budget to promote their watches?


So true. Nice to see the magazine is still going strong.


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## 8505davids

Arrived last week after spending years in a drawer at its original owner's house. Now 94 he was clearing out his house as he was about to move out - and in with his 88 year old girlfriend!









Case stripped out and cleaned, new seals fitted and the scratches and scours buffed out of the original crystal - ready for a trip to the watchmakers for service and likely cannon pinion tightening.


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## sempervivens

Beautiful, dial and hands in excellent condition, unpolished case, it doesn't get much better than this.


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## 8505davids

sempervivens said:


> Beautiful, dial and hands in excellent condition, unpolished case, it doesn't get much better than this.


No bracelet unfortunately (apart from an old Seiko one in the bag with it) but I guess you can't have everything!


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## 8505davids

When Zenith moved to the new serial numbers in the 70s - did each dial colour get a different 4 figure code between the case material and movement codes or were they all 0901s?


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## sempervivens

Each had its own code, 901 for the khaki dial, 902 for the white dial. The black dial I've never seen with the new codes, probably it went out of production.


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## 8505davids

sempervivens said:


> Each had its own code, 901 for the khaki dial, 902 for the white dial. The black dial I've never seen with the new codes, probably it went out of production.


Thank you - any word on the red and turquoise versions? Could the 0901 and 0902 have defined indice shape rather than dial colour (or did they have slightly different case styles) as I don't think I've seen any other code than 0901 on the later square indice Defys?

the webpage Kellohuoltoloppela.com/Defy indicates the 0901/2 were solely case style codes - it also states that from 1972 the Defys were available with the Spaceman style bracelet with different end links ...I don't know where their information comes from or how accurate it is:

*Zenith Defy*
In the late '60s, there was competition between watch factories in the manufacture of watertight watches, Zenith also decided to launch a divingvasive watch. The watch was named Defy. The name snuck out of Zenith's history, the factory's founder, Georges Favre-Jacot, had a pocket watch called Defi. In the late 1950s, Zenith had had a special waterproof model Compressor, which is not a full-blooded diver's watch (100m tight), it was based on a patent from shell factory EPSA. By the way, Zenith had focused throughout the '60s only on splash-tight basic watches. The factory started developing the clock in the mid-60s, however, there were plans not only to make a diving watch, but also a very durable watch, perhaps this is why the model did not put a tour ring on it. The watch was announced at the very end of 1968 and at that time a small batch of tests was placed on the market in Switzerland and Central Europe, but the clock was not in stores in Finland until January 1969. The oldest Defy I've ever seen is a watch bought online by my client in Italy without an original board, its reffi being 320Axxx. The oldest Finnish Defy I've seen is 330Axxx. According to some reports, there have been about 2.000 clocks on the side of 1968, considering that Zenith also made other models at the same time. The watch was on a spiral knob and had water protection to 1,000 feet. As glass, the watch had tempered mineral glass, which was initially advertised as scratch-resistant, but it wasn't quite that, but significantly more durable than against scratching than the plex glasses of the time. However, mineral glass allowed for 300m water tightness, with plexilas it would not have been possible. Defy and diver watches started rushing mineral glass into the market. What's special about Defy's glass is that it wasn't smooth and even-handed with kuren other manufacturers, but the glass was convex and lentil-like. In my opinion, the glasses in the original series were of better quality than the new spare parts glasses supplied by the factory today (the subcontractor has changed on the way). The watch also had a flexible machinery frame ring that provided protection against shocks. A retired watchmaker who had been a Zenith dealer told me the other day that he had been at a presentation event for Defy, a Finnish importer, in the early 1970s, had a wristband removed from the clock, and the clock had then been played on the ice with a hockey stick. After all the knock-on, the watch had been tested and had been functionally completely intact! The watch has also performed other similar stunts around the world and was advertised with the watch closed around the boxing glove.








*Machinery*
The clock was specifically designed with automatic machinery to ensure less use of the knob than in the model with the torable machinery, thus maintaining good knob tightness for longer. In the first batch of the clock, the automatic 2552PC was used, which quickly changed to the 2562PC version. Officially, the caliber 2562PC release is in 1972, but the machinery was tested on the Defy model as early as 1969. After 1972, 2562PC of the new high speed machinery started to be advertised on the clock board with 28.800, which was the speed of the machinery. The watches in the first release of the watch had a sand-colored or silver-coloured board. In the future, the main focus was on the silver-light board, but other colours were also used (graphite grey, black, turquoise and burgundy), specializing in slightly dirty grey or sand-coloured boards that darkened to the edges. The production of the original nut Defy ended in 1974. In total, 35,550 Defys (including the initial model, 4:00 a.m. knob, Diver and Gauss) were manufactured.
*bark*
The bell shell is octagonal and quickly received the French nickname Boulon (=nut). In Finland, too, the watch is known as either nut Defy or safe Defy. The watch has a shell diameter of 37mm and a thickness of 13.5mm. The watch's special waterproof shells were manufactured for Zenith by the shell factory EPSA, which specialized in waterproofing. In addition to Zenith, EPSA worked closely with Omega, among others. Inside Defy's back cover is engraved with the patent number of the model, which is 1808-68. In the 1970s (about 6/1970), the patent was renewed and the number was 433877. Defy clock indicators and board phosphorus were made of non-radiant material, this was new as most often tritium was still used in the watches.
*Other versions*
A special version of the watch was also manufactured for military use, with 600m waterproofing and a rotation tyre. The clock came into production in 1969. About half of the model was sold for civilian use. In the third model, which was 300m tight, the knob was placed instead of 3:00 at 4:30. The Defy Gauss model had a so-called barrle-shape (i.e. barrel-shaped body). The model proved too big in its day, even though the '70s were a time for big watches. Later, Defy was made into even more experimental models, which were only swim-tight models, i.e. 100m. The two most famous of these are nicknamed TV-Defy and Spaceman. There are also at least two other minor models from the 1970s. Defy is still relaunching quartz in the early '90s.
*Catapult number*
Zenith had a catalogue number for the models (varied according to the color of the board sand A3642, white A 3643. A referred to steel acier and G gold), but that number is not found on the watches themselves. The watches are thinly engraved with code numbering running to the back bottom. Defy's numbers are either 330D000 - about 300E000. D- used in Defy (and other Zeniths) 1969-70, the size of the number can be estimated as far as possible. The sandboard below is my own collection and an Italian collector with serial numbers collected knew to tell me that its number 333D396 is the oldest Defy's number in his files. The use of the letter 'E' began in 1971. In 1972, Zenith switched to a new coding system, the number was the same on every watch, i.e. it was a model number. The old E-code didn't quite fill up, and it was abandoned with about 300E000 climaxes. One of the Defy Gauss I fixed had both codes and had 287Exxx on it, it's probably one of the last letter codes made. Defy's number was 01.0902.290, so the same number on each watch. The new number is therefore easy to identify individuals made in 1972-74.
Manfred Rössler's mainly excellent Zenith book is often worth reading the groundwork elsewhere, as it has a lot of minor errors, such as the age of the images and the fact that Defy used 2542PC machinery, is a classic mistake! Joel Duval's book, on the other hand, is not as number-oriented, so there is not much information about it, but nice pictures.















Defy's glass set, or bezel, is attached to the back of the watch with the same thread. The ring presses the glass against the special rubber seal. There is a NATO star and a serial number on the back bottom, often the serial number has disappeared if the bottom has been polished.








Defy's two different knoobs. A NATO star and a box inside which a NATO star. The box knob, which came after only 1972, is now available.















*Defy table differences*
There are other differences in Defy boards besides just the color of the board. The hour and minute indicators are always the same on the clocks, but in the oldest models the second pointer's snow was orange, later it was manufactured on the same snow as other indicators. From close inspection, you can see from the tables that several different versions were used in the indexes. Considering the colour of the boards, the indexes and 28.800, zenith defy's 3:00 a.m. knob model has 9 versions. They are the boards below (4) + 28.800 boards: light, black and sand.+ 1971/72 published color boards turquoise and burgundy. The color boards were made for the Zenith Defy Gauss model, but they were also placed in basic Defy. So there are only two different versions of the so-called sandboards, although a quick look would tell you that there are numerous different color combos, but it's just an age-related color error, the color of the board has changed as it ages, some have become almost orange or rusty.






























*1)* The A3642 Index is a square beam with grooved beans in a cross-sectional direction. The snow is painted as a dot attached to the top. Line spacing specified in the second circle. *2)* A3643. The most common model, index is a slightly inward narrowing bar with darkening at the ends, vertical matte brushing. The snow is a separate rectangle behind it. *3) *A3644. The rarest model. Index is a slightly inwardly narrowing bar with a bevel brush on top, 2/3 on the inside. Here, too, the snow is a separate rectangle behind it. *4) *A3645. *Index is the s*uorakaide bar with a snow track in the middle. In addition, there is a separate snow bar behind the index.
*Photos of Defy watches*








First series *Zenith Automatic Defy* on a sand-colored board, early 1969. Small manufacturing volume, well worth more than the more common white board. Model second indicator on orange snow. Catalogue number is A3644









First series *Zenith Automatic Defy* A3643 with silver and white board. This blond was the most common in Defyi.








Zenith Defy Machinery 2552PC. The speed of the machinery was 21,600. Version 2562PC, which looks completely identical in appearance, had a running frequency of 28,800.







*Zenith Automatic 28.800 Defy*, with new high speed machine, A 3645.








*Zenith Automatic Defy* A4245 with dark grey/graphite board, 2552PC. Dark grey was the colour of the painting favoured by the Zenith factory in the late 60s, but it was not common in Defy. It's about 1970.







One specialty that a kolleega asked me about, their store had sold one of these for just under 3k. Light-tablet Zenith Defy with outlier indexes. The model may be Zenith specifics, an experiment conducted from outside the catalag. A test piece that eventually failed to reach official production. However, the individual has been put up for sale. Or it's just someone's tuning. Since it's not in the catapult, it's impossible to verify anymore. They say the indexes are the same as el primero espada from 1971. Since the authenticity of the clock is controversial, I do not think that a higher price can be justified.
*Women's Defy*








This original line was also made into a rare women's watch (AX 3678) with a shell of 28.5mm without a knob. The watch's shell number was 01.0160.485 The women's watch was also made with an GF bracelet and a leather bracelet. The fastening width of the women's Defy bracelet was 15mm. The large lumpy watch was not to the liking of women at the time, and the clock probably wasn't even made for more than a test batch. The watch initially had Zenith's own automatic 1724C, which was manufactured with only 5,000 watch models, including one. Women's Defys were only made in a relationship enough for the factory to say that there was one, so the clock is a rarity. Later, the clock was made with the out-of-house machinery ETA 2671 (bark number 485 refers to eta machinery). Unfortunately, as with other women's watches, rarity does not accumulate in value.







Men's and women's Defy side by side.
*Defy 600 diver*
Defy's diver's watch on a rotation ring (rotating bezel). Diver's watch, diver's watch. The model was made in a limited batch of 7,000 pieces, designed from a special order for navy divers (I can't remember which country). The rotary ring is with a powerful lock, because it does not fluff at all at the bottom, but must be lifted from two sides before it can be moved. So it's impossible to move the tin unintentionally. The watch board is reflective material. The watch is made with a white (A3650) and orange/black (A6448) board. The knob of the clock is at 4:30 a.m., this one because the clock is 5-diner than the original Defy and at 4:30 a.m. it's not in the way.
Zenith has also made a diving watch of the same size on a yellow and orange board in the 1970s, so it's not Defy, it's Zenith Diver. That model has a similar bezel, but the knob is at 3:00 a.m. and the shell is with a curved bevel, not an angular one. It is also an extremely rare model.















*Zenith Automatic Defy "Diver"*, 600m waterproof diver Defy.
*Defy, 4:00 a.m. knob*
The model was made in the wake of that 600m diver taking a model of it, it is like the original 300m waterproof. The model is slightly err than the original model at 3:00 a.m. with a knob. However, the glass and board are 2 mm smaller in diameter than in basic Defy. The model was made in 1972-74. It didn't rise in popularity to nearly the level of the original. My own eye is not struck by a 4am knob, it lacks the ballant of the original model. This model has its own glass of different sizes than the original Defy.







*Zenith Automatic Defy *at 4:30 with a knob. From 1973, peel date 01.1070.290. This model has slightly smaller glass than the original model. Also take into account the different grinding of the shell, which follows the style of the diving Defys.
*Defy Gauss*
In the '70s, the size of the watches began to grow, and Defy was also made into a bigger version. The model was in production from 1971 to 1973. The nut-like frame here was replaced by a barrel shape with a large 22mm bracelet. Only small number of tests were made, as Zenith often used to do. A total of 5,000 table shades were manufactured. Only the caliber 2562PC was used as the machine in this model. The model did not become a hit, as it was considered too big at the time and the watch was only sold for a test batch. On the watch, the original bracelet was a so-called beam bracelet made by Gay Freres. Technically, this bracelet was poor, the joints of the pieces were subjected to high pressure, which often led to a part-broken. The model was 300m waterproof, as was nut Defy. The model has its own glass, which is different from the rest of Defyi. In the model, the main colours of the painting were turquoise A7683 and burgundy A7682. These are square indexes. In addition, even rarer test pieces were made, with Defy Gauss A7686 light, A7687 blue and A7688 black on the board with ruler dex. You can see a lot of franks online because, for example, the basic Defy machine goes straight with its paintings into this envelope.







*








Zenith Automatic 28.800 Defy* *"Gauss"* with barrel-shaped shell.

*TV-Defy and Spaceman*








Pictured is a page from a Japanese sales brochure. The picture shows two models of three watches. A regular and double-calendar version, of both TV-Defy and Spaceman. The third bell in the brochure is captain. Interestingly, the Captain appears to have been the most affordable model of these three at this point, although it was originally created as the flagship model for automatic clocks. It was already an exiting model at this point.
The two most important of the new Defy models were TV-Defy and Spaceman. Models were made with machinery 2552PC and 2562PC. The clocks have also been 408 in the double calendar. Tv-Defy's board doesn't mention the frequency at 8:800 p.m., but Spaceman often does. Spaceman has two teulus, one at 9:00 a.m. automatic, the other at 28:800. Similarly, spaceman's double calendar template board is marked AF/P, it doesn't exist on TV-Defy. AF/P comes from the Italian words _Alta frequenza & precisione_ (= high frequency and accuracy) the clock has a running frequency of 36,000, the same as el primero. Spacema's model is not often encountered in Finland. Zenith's importer, wholesaler Sylvester Korhonen, went bankrupt at the time of the watch's publication, so the model has not been sold much in Finland. The sellers of watches that are often sold online (eBay, Chrono24) are from Italy, where the lot is probably mainly sold. Both models represent the aesthetics of the '70s at their best. Neither model is particularly large. The diameter of the TV defy is 35mm at the knob, from the ear to the ear 42mm. Spaceman is 34mm at nupin point.








*Zenith Automatic Defy "TV-Defy" *100m waterproof model. This individual's shell date is 700D76 and has 2552PC, the clock is about 1969. The catalogue number is A 7650.








*Zenith Automatic Defy "Spaceman" *100m waterproof model. Kataloki number is A 7632.
*Defy, 4:00 a.m. new edition of the knob*








The 4 o'clock knob Defy's return in 1974 was zenith's new 2572PC with a calendar quick transfer. Previous Defys didn't have a quick transfer to the calendar. The shell number is 01-1501-380. This model doesn't coincide with the original 4:00 a.m. knob defy, but here's a erraier glass. The shell has more in common with the original nut Defy.
*After the original collection and 1974*
These models are called post-Defys by most collectors, although they are certainly received as Defyi. Some of the last Defys were made by Zenith with the Movado brand for the US market. Some of the Defys of 1974-78 were also made with EEA machinery. Zenith entered the quartz era in 1976 and stopped making mechanical watches. Mechanical clocks were then made from machinery built into storage and with EEA machinery.
After 1974, Zenith introduced a way to mark watches with either Surf or Sub Sea. Surf was either splashproof or even swimproof (100m), while Sub Sea reported that the watch was bottle diving.








This Defy was an XXL size, its shell diameter was 38.5mm. It was 100 m waterproof. Machinery 2572PC, shell date 01.0210.380.








Angular Defy after 1974 with the machinery 2572PC. Shell diameter without knob 37mm, angularity makes the watch bigger than the upper round XXL model.







Late Defy models with an integrated bracelet.








Zenith Defy ETA high speed koneistolla, taajuus 36.000. Kuorireffi 01.0060.345 Kello on noin vuodelta 1978 eli viimeisiä mekaanisia ennen quartz-aikaa.
Zenithillä oli näissä "Lopunaikojen" (1974-80) mekaanisissa myös muita malleja kuin tässä esitellyt, mutta tässä on ne tärkeimmät.
*Quartz-ajan Defy*
Vaikka Zenith valmisti 60-70-lukujen taitteessa useita malleja Defy-brändin alla, tarkoitetaan Defyn toisella tulemisella useimmiten 80-luvun lopussa syntynyttä quartz-mallistoa, jossa oli uusi design. Mallissa oli käytetty dubleeta kiertorenkaassa ja rannekkeen somistepaloissa, myös nuppi oli dubleeta. Kelloissa oli joko metalliranneke tai hainnahkainen sininen ranneke. Malliston pääväri oli sininen, mutta kelloa tehtiin myös valkoisella taululla. Kellot oli varustettu joko ETA quartz-koneistolla 955.112 tai multikalenterikoneistolla 955.483. Myöhemmin mallista tehtiin 90-luvun puolivälissä myös automaattikello ETA 2892-2 koneistolla, kuorireffi 08.2100.462, siitä oli myös täysteräsversio 01.2100.462. Mielestäni kun katsoo alkuperäistä Defyä ja sitten tätä, se kertoo, mitä Zenithille tapahtui 80-luvulla. Krumeluuria ja kultausta kellossa, joka suunniteltu extra-kovaankäyttöön.















*Zenith Defy*, ETA with machine 955.112, shell date 08/59.2100.226 (in code that /59 means two-color bracelet). Same clock with multi-calendar machine ETA 955.483, peel date 08/59.2100.394. The model was with a threaded knob and 200m waterproof. The duble knob of this model is of poor quality and wears out quickly, apparently the base metal of the knob is a soft mixture.
*Defy's bracelet*
*Gay Freres*
Zenith Defy was sold on both a metal wrist and a leather bracelet. The original metal bracelet was manufactured for Zenith by a subcontractor, the bracelet factory Gay Freres SA_(The company is called Brothers Gay_). GF bracelets are entred with the deer head logo for the lock folding and also have a manufacturing time of e.g. 2/71 (=second quarter 1971). The GF bracelet used in Defy is known by the nickname ladder. As the bracelet is manufactured by a subcontractor, it is no longer available and has not been in 50 years. A used bracelet can cost as much on eBay as a whole watch that requires or is serviced. The reason for this is that the same bracelet was also used in the original El Primero, and in it the metal bracelet can increase the value of the watch by over 1,000 euros. I'm getting evenly questioned, where can I get an original bracelet for Defy? The answer is nothing! Certainly not at a price without buying a watch where it's already closed. Even now, at the time of writing this, I was digging the web (summer 2017) eBay has one Zenith ladder for sale, which has been defaced by shortening pieces from the wrist and missing end pieces. Finding end pieces separately can be more difficult than finding the bracelet itself. The buy it _now price of a_ wrist on sale for a rached bracelet is £680! The second bracelet was sold from Italy the other day for 1200€. Absurd!
Defy's GF bracelets had different locks: 1) basic folding, 2) basic sleagging, diving with 3) folding, safety cinch (pictured) and 4) folding, safety and diving jat.
The GF wrists were made in such a way that they were not lulled at all by removing the pieces, but only by moving the spring sting on the lock plate. Since the average wristband of humans in the early 70s was narrower than it is now, the length of the GF bracelet is usually in the class of 19-20 cm, with it in the outer hole. At the time, the importer also ordered an XL bracelet if necessary. I have come across several GF wrists that have been naffs on my own wrist in the outer regulation, so you should be prepared for a back blow if you have a fair wrist and buy Zenith's beginnings. with a bracelet.







Zenith ladder pad with basic snitching, upper diving.








A lock with a safety side designed to prevent the lock from opening unintentionally.







Deer head id on the turn of the lock.







The diving extension of the lock to give it extra length when placed on top of the wetsuit.

















After 1972, Defyi started wearing a new kind of bracelet, which was also manufactured by Gay Freres SA. The same bracelet was also used in TV-Defy and Spaceman models, for example. The so-to-end piece on the watch side of the bracelet was loose and was selected according to the watch. Here's TV-Defy's end piece, higher up the nut Defy's.















Made after 1972, the crooked knob Defys with a knob at 4:30 a.m. and the Defy Gauss model used a so-called beam rail with very large pieces. This bracelet is also made by Gay Freres. In the model, the joints of the pieces have a big strain and often the wristband is broken by the joints of the pieces, which are not on the interchangeable shaft in Vinonuppi-Defy the wristband is 18mm, in Defy Gauss the wristband is 22mm.
*NSA bracelet*
In addition to these GF bracelets, the Zenithes of the early 70s have a bracelet made by a company called the NSA, but it was not used in Defy. Typically, an NSA bracelet is a steel bracelet with two axes connected together by a steel straw wrapped over them. NSA bracelets were used more than every other Swiss watch factory (Breitling, Candino, Certina, Eterna, Favre-Leuba, Heuer, Jaeger-Lecoultre, Longines, Omega, Marvin, Movado, Rado, Roamer, Sinn, Tissot, Zenith, Zodiac et al). It served as one of the last Swiss watch-ring factories and operated until the late 80s. There were bracelets with both a spinning wear and a breaking lock. NSA's old warehouse accessories can also be pricey today, with buy it now selling prices of €300 on eBay on average (e.g. Rado still has the same type of original wrist on sale for about €100). Some of them can also be seen moving in those with the Zenith logo on the lock (the accessory usually has the NSE logo triangle in a circle), but the bracelet is sold in an NSSA plastic case. So the bracelet is an accessory with a watch sign logo! There must have been some kind of deal at the plant to cooperate with some of the signs.















*Other Zenith original bracelets*
After 1974 Zenith began wearing non-GF bracelets, these bracelets had no manufacturer information, they were only Zenith with a logo or text.















Octagonal mineral-scalded Defy had the same type of bracelet as TV-El Primero. Fine bracelet, thick and impressive pieces, but a bit clumsy to wear. A more affordable version of the model was also made below.








*Zenith Original Case*








Zenith watches sold many times online house the factory's modern watch case, e.g. the impressive grey case of the quartz watches of the late 1980s, or even the wooden enclosure of the 21st century, but they did not come with them. At the time of Zenith Defy, as well as other Zeniths, there was a modest black or red cardboard and paper case in the 60s, with a red velvet fabric stained at the bottom and light silk at the top. After 1972, the enclosures were dark blue plastic.









_Article posted on 8/2017 HL_


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## sempervivens

You're probably thinking of the turquoise dial which is presently for sale on flea-bay; but it is clearly a franken (it also has a wrong seconds hand). 

Each dial had its own code in the new model codes. There were several new codes for different Defy models which were continued in 1973, e.g. also the ladies octagonal, the Spaceman, the TV, the three tonneau models (plus at least one Defy Gauss), each had its own code, but for the old octagonal models (which by then were four years old) I've seen only codes for the white and khaki dial, 0902 and 0901.


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## 8505davids

LOL I saw it - the hands are from a Zenith of some sort, though not a Defy, but not sure where the lollipop second hand comes from. The end links sitting over the case are pretty strange as well so clearly the bracelet is not correct either. But the 0901 on the caseback did raise the question in my mind of whether the middle four numbers represented a case style as I thought they did or defined each dial colour/style separately as the few 0901s I've seen have all been khaki. If more than just a case ref, and the burgundy and turquoise etc were still available after the numbers change, I wonder what all their 4 number refs were? Anyone have a square indiced Defy thats not khaki with the newer caseback numbers? Great to be able to pick the brains of knowledgeable folks and much appreciated.


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## sempervivens

Interesting, you edited a whole article translation into your previous message  Goes to show how well-loved the Defy is.

However the information that all the later Defy's had the same reference 01.0902.290, is simply not correct. I'm not even sure if that's what he meant. Your translation shows '_Defy's number was 01.0902.290, so the same number on each watch._'. But a google translation is not a real translation. Maybe he simply meant that all the white octagonal Defy's after 1973 have that same number on the back.

As for the burgundy and turquoise octagonal models, I don't think they were made after 1973. If so, they would show up each with their own model code.


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## 8505davids

I only posted the whole thing out of interest as people couldn't access the webpage I listed - I struggled to find it again myself!

In my defence I did say that I knew nothing about the publisher or whether any of it was correct and as you say it is just a rough translation and may not accurately represent what was intended. I'm guessing from what is said in the article that the original version is Finnish but I'm not sure. I think you are right that the 0902 claim did solely refer to the white dial - thats what I understood when reading it anyway. 

Nice anecdote about the ice hockey 'puck' though and I do like the translated term 'splash tight'!


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## Rifish

8505davids said:


> I only posted the whole thing out of interest as people couldn't access the webpage I listed - I struggled to find it again myself!
> 
> In my defence I did say that I knew nothing about the publisher or whether any of it was correct and as you say it is just a rough translation and may not accurately represent what was intended.


Loppela is a well-respected Finnish watchmaker and expert in vintage watches, especially Zenith watches. So I would trust that most of the text is correct, at least in Finnish. Of course there can be some errors while nobody knows everything and we are constantly finding new information about Defy models.

I don't know what Loppela thinks that his writing has been fully quoted and translated by Google translate here...


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## 8505davids

Sighs ...re my last post - perhaps I should have copied the details on private message to those that asked ....if anyone is offended I apologise. My main points of query were whether 0901/2 were solely case style numbers or model numbers (differentiating dials etc) and whether the ladder bracelet was indeed the only bracelet supplied with these Defys. Some of my round case Autosports from the same period have consecutive middle four figure numbers (1230/1 if memory serves) though the same style dial - there are slight differences in the case when viewed side on. Of course some of them may be wrong!

As I don't know the history of the Defys, my post is simply to clarify and learn more - it is not intended to offend anyone with more knowledge of the watches.


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## bryceasmith13

Got an A3642 needing a new crystal gasket...anyone help with dimensions? Thanks in advance!


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## Hartmut Richter

A belated Welcome to Watchuseek from myself! I am sorry that we don't seem to be able to help you here (no replies in five days) - if this continues, it might be better to post this question in the "Watchmaking" forum on WUS. Good luck!

Hartmut Richter


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## 8505davids

I think 31.5/33.5 fits if I remember right - I have some crystal seals for the A3651 but I think they are smaller when I tried them against the A3642 case.


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## Rifish

2 x ref. A3674, so called bi-colour/two tone Defy. I think these are from 1970, maybe late -70. The left one is in great shape. It might have been used just as a dress watch / just in special occasions. The right one seems to have been in heavy use, as Defy should be used.


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## sempervivens

New finds? All in the same case number range? Congrats.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> New finds? All in the same case number range? Congrats.


Thanks. Yes, the right one is a new find. Serial numbers are close together.


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## sempervivens

Great condition! Do let me know the case and bracelet number (if you don't mind). Have you seen one outside Finland yet?

And have we seen the ref. A3673 yet? I don't remember.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Great condition! Do let me know the case and bracelet number (if you don't mind). Have you seen one outside Finland yet?
> 
> And have we seen the ref. A3673 yet? I don't remember.


I have seen in recent years about five in Finland with both a yellow glass and a gilded bezel + one in Italy. Usually the yellow glass is missing.

Yes, ref. A3673 is still a mystery.


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## paysdoufs

Bumping this thread since I eventually secured an A3642 for myself…


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## GmtMasterIII

Great thread. Thanks for reviving.


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## paysdoufs

My pleasure 

I'd actually like to follow-up my introductory pic with a couple of questions for the experts here (NB: My A3642 bears a collection of all possible Zenith star logos: 5-pronged one on the dial, “NATO” star on the case-back, “sound-wave” star on the crown):

*1)* Re. the movement: What would be a realistic expectation for the power reserve of a serviced (but nevertheless still 50-years old) 2562PC? Ranfft mentions >40h, but I guess that’s overly optimistic… (?) Also, I was wondering whether a date shift at 3 (A.M.) is something that can be easily fixed (at next service) or should better be left alone?

*2)* My crown has a very short “travel” to screw down - hardly a full 360-degrees turn. Not that it matters a lot since I don’t intend to get that watch wet… - but is that normal?

*3)* Finally, I was wondering whether there's any resource online that allows to easily deduce the year of production from the case number (323 E 9xy in my case)?

Thanks so much in advance and Viva Defy!


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## 8505davids

Can say that the one on the dial and the caseback are original - the crown is a Zenith service crown replacement - pretty common. There is a thread on here somewhere with Defy serial numbers but I'm sure you'll get a quicker answer soon.

The Defys are a very stylish watch - unlike anything else really. Like Doxas though, one is often never enough! (as this thread proves)


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## sempervivens

Hi Paysdoufs,

Congratulations on your Zenith Defy! To answer a few of your questions: I would consider a > 40 h reserve normal and not at all optimistic, on the contrary. In my experience Ranfft is usually on the safe side as far as the power reserve of watches in his database is concerned; meaning that since he mentions 46 h for cal. 2562 PC, it may be even more. Secondly, your description of the screw down crown requiring only one turn to screw it down seems fairly normal as well. Thirdly, the year of production for that case number is: 1972. There is a thread out there on vintage Zenith Defy serial numbers; you will notice that 323E9xx are the last case numbers Zenith applied, before switching to model numbers. Once I hope to update that thread; I'm still collecting data so if you feel like it, you could pm me your exact case number. There is of course a possibility that I already have it in my list and so to be sure I would require the full number.


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## paysdoufs

8505davids said:


> The Defys are a very stylish watch - unlike anything else really. Like Doxas though, one if often never enough! (as this thread proves)


Hah! - Then I guess I’m lucky to already own a SUB 300T Professional (although a reedition one)  That said, I’m indeed still eyeing the SUB 600T (Divingstar with black ceramic bezel). Guess it never stops…


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## paysdoufs

sempervivens said:


> Hi Paysdoufs,
> 
> Congratulations on your Zenith Defy! To answer a few of your questions: I would consider a > 40 h reserve normal and not at all optimistic, on the contrary. In my experience Ranfft is usually on the safe side as far as the power reserve of watches in his database is concerned; meaning that since he mentions 46 h for cal. 2562 PC, it may be even more. Secondly, your description of the screw down crown requiring only one turn to screw it down seems fairly normal as well. Thirdly, the year of production for that case number is: 1972. There is a thread out there on vintage Zenith Defy serial numbers; you will notice that 323E9xx are the last case numbers Zenith applied, before switching to model numbers. Once I hope to update that thread; I'm still collecting data so if you feel like it, you could pm me your exact case number. There is of course a possibility that I already have it in my list and so to be sure I would require the full number.


Thanks @sempervivens for these confirmations 

Today was my first day of wearing the watch nonstop. So I guess I’ll be in the clear regarding its PR sometime end of tomorrow. Fingers crossed!

Also, thanks for pointing me back to “your“ thread with the vintage Defy's serial numbers! Don’t ask me why, but I was somehow convinced that it was somewhere over on Omega-Forums and gave up when I seemed incapable of finding it back…  I’ll send you a PM with the full serial number ASAP.

What is so incredibly cool about you confirming that it actually IS from 1972, is that it makes this Defy a birth-year watch for me 

Anyone with an opinion on the belated date shift? Do yours all switch over around midnight?


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## sempervivens

Forgot about the date shift. Does it change over slowly and then complete its cycle at 3 AM? Or is it an instantaneous date shift at 3 AM?

First of all: it should be an instantaneous date shift. So if it still is instantaneous, it would be the easiest fix, since then it only requires taking off the hands an putting them back at the right time.

But if it has become a slow change-over (as I suspect) it will require a service (however you can also wait to fix this minor problem until the whole movement needs a service).


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## paysdoufs

It’s an instantaneous shift  So I’ll just life with it and have it fixed at next service, when the hands go off and are set back on anyway (I should have thought about that possible reason, actually)...


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## 8505davids

Just when I said the Defys were unlike anything else - this pops up on fleabay!


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## GmtMasterIII

8505davids said:


> Just when I said the Defys were unlike anything else - this pops up on fleabay!
> 
> View attachment 16594547


But that's how you know you've made it.


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## Hartmut Richter

Regarding the power reserve, this doesn't really reflect on the age of the movement as much as the age of the mainspring and the state of servicing of the movement. If you have rather less than the stipulated power reserve, you might need servicing; if you have a (properly) serviced watch and end up with too little power reserve, you have a damaged mainspring. Since mainsprings are semi generic, you can simply have it replaced.

Hartmut Richter


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## paysdoufs

Tks for the additional info. After a full day of wearing (no handwinding) I set it away and after 30h it was still going strong. That was good enough for me to authorize payout to the seller…

All in all, it did really turn out to be a “ready-to-grab & go” piece, and that’s all I was hoping for. Now waiting on the Forstner ladder bracelet.


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## paysdoufs

The power reserve is actually well above 40h  

Also, I was eventually able to mount the Forstner on my A3642 and am very happy with the result. As expected, the bracelet adds a bit of wrist presence to the watch, which is quite welcome.


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## watchhunterandcollector

I really regretted selling my early 3642, but is now the happy owner of this early 3645 on the original GF ladder!


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## sempervivens

Amazing condition for this rare reference A 3645, congratulations and wear it in good health.


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## watchhunterandcollector

sempervivens said:


> Amazing condition for this rare reference A 3645, congratulations and wear it in good health.


Thank you for this and for keeping the books about the early Defys!


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## MrDagon007

watchhunterandcollector said:


> I really regretted selling my early 3642, but is now the happy owner of this early 3645 on the original GF ladder!


I have the same in a champagne dial. So lovely.


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## 8505davids




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## 8505davids

Handy little tool I picked up on ebay a few months ago - was a bit skeptical but tried it today to remove some crud from under the bezel and it works well - it takes a good grip of the bezel/back once lined up and 'popped' on with a push and is strong. Glueing a nut to the steel caseback is still the best way to remove one thats not been off for years! Once a seized back has been freed up though, the plastic tool is just the job.


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