# General Consensus on Sellita movement vs ETA?



## ronragus

What is the general consensus on sellita movement from the watchmaker community? I am particularly interested in the SW200 and the SW500 versus the ETA counterparts, assuming the same basic grade (lowest grade). Have anyone taken them apart to compare? thanks


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## Purple Hayz

They're drop-in ETA clones. Dimensionally identical, just as well made, and just as precise.


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## Champagne InHand

My thoughts exactly. Swiss made, off patent ETAs that are made just as precisely and polished as well as at Swiss made, off-patent ETA like the 2824, or 2836. 

Some have tried to say they were better because of new machinery equipment but this just isn’t true as the movements have been perfected. The Chinese can make these same movements and when the price is paid they will polish things up and try to lubricate as well. 

There are many videos and such showing ETA-2824-2 vs Asian clones and SW200 (I believe this is the equivalent Sellita), and they all run nicely. You can’t really mess up a well designed movement, if it’s machined right, polished up nicely, assembled and lubricated as per the original. 

I wouldn’t pay more or less for a Sellita. They are great movements and unlike the Chinese, they have excellent QC, which is so important to any movement. Outside the watch, then once it’s installed by the manufacturer/final assembly point of any given watch. 

ETA and Sellita 100
Chinese, any ones guess but getting close when all the care is given, but nowhere near as polished and contaminants abound in their factories. Clean-rooms is something that manufacturers have had such a hard time getting in parts of Asia. Even Apple and other tech companies have troubles enforcing a clean room environment. 

It is what it is. 

As far as grade I think Sellita tries to make as good a product as the top or at least the elaborated movements. I don’t think they put out a basic grade. That’s my understanding at least. 

I know there parts are directly interchangeable with ETA in almost all cases. 




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## Deli

Then guess why Tag released sooooo many _After Sales Services Info _on the subject since they've switched to Sellita :roll:

The last one was :



> After Sales Service Info No. 79/March 2017
> Sellita SW1000-1TH movement
> 
> Context
> We have noticed that, on certain SW1000-1 movements, the automatic winding may be subject to malfunctions. To
> address this, our supplier has created a new calibre (SW1000-1TH) to ensure better automatic winding thanks to a
> new MD0140 oscillating weight.
> 
> Explanation
> The new MD0140 oscillating weight is 0.115 mm thicker than the old MD0132, guaranteeing more efficient
> automatic winding and a power reserve within the required tolerance (minimum 40.00 hrs).
> Following this improvement, a new movement reference has been created (MM0386/SW1000-1TH), the number of
> which is etched on the main plate next to the balance (see illustration).
> 
> NB:
> When using the SW1000-1 TH movement, the back must also be replaced due to the difference in thickness
> (larger) of the new MD0140 weight.


Thicker means more mass for the rotor.

The same bad method is used by lazy clock repairers: adding more weight, without correcting the issues (by design or wear) first. 
It'll work at first, then it'll be worse.

Sure, Sellita is better than ETA :roll:
Soprod is good, but Sellita ... I'd never get any watch with such a movement in it.


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## Joe Horner

Deli said:


> Then guess why Tag released sooooo many _After Sales Services Info _on the subject since they've switched to Sellita :roll:
> 
> The last one was :
> 
> Thicker means more mass for the rotor.
> 
> The same bad method is used by lazy clock repairers: adding more weight, without correcting the issues (by design or wear) first.
> It'll work at first, then it'll be worse.
> 
> Sure, Sellita is better than ETA :roll:
> Soprod is good, but Sellita ... I'd never get any watch with such a movement in it.


T

That's a little unfair.

The rotors for the TAGs was specified by TAG, not by Selita, and they cut two big holes out of it for decoration. Given that a 9''' auto will always borderline (compared to an equivalent full sized movement) for winding efficiency, removing large amounts of metal from the rotor to give the "brand look" is a typically bloody stupid thing you'd expect from TAG.

The fact they've found they need to replace that metal by making the rest a little thicker isn't at all surprising and doesn't reflect at all on the unmolested movement as built by Sellita.


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## Neognosis

Like most here, i have both movements, and would not hesitate to buy another selita.


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## BenchGuy

"General Consensus"..."watchmaker community"...
Do these really belong in the same sentence...?
Regards, BG


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## Neognosis

Selita performance in my oris 65.

Not bad for an unregulated watch.

5 months old.


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## Joe Horner

BenchGuy said:


> "General Consensus"..."watchmaker community"...
> Do these really belong in the same sentence...?
> Regards, BG


Well, I'm pretty sure there's a general consensus on here that Seiko make excellent movements.......


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## Archer

Champagne InHand said:


> I know there parts are directly interchangeable with ETA in almost all cases.


Can I ask how you "know" this? Have you had an ETA and Sellita apart and compared the parts side by side?

Let's do that and see what we find...

Starting with the barrel bridge for an ETA 2824-2 and an SW200-1:



Note that the steady pins are on the bridge with ETA, but are on the plate with Sellita. These parts are not interchangeable and none of the bridges are.

Reversing wheels:



Note that the pinions are very different. These parts are not interchangeable as well as the parts they mate to.

And of course the infamous ratchet wheel:



The tooth profiles are very different. These parts are not interchangeable.

Sellita is not just making their own version of the ETA movements. Why on earth they would mess with a design that is pretty good overall is beyond me, but they did, and early on paid a price for it. The ratchet wheels would show up with teeth sheared off them, so they made a design change - it used to be on their web site but hasn't been there for a while now, but I have this crop of the older tech guide when this change was first made:



The changes made to tooth profiles that were supposed to solve the problem of sheared off ratchet wheel teeth resulted in the SW200-1. So how did that change work out?



I service far more ETA movements than Sellita, at least a 50:1 ratio, yet I've seen more damaged ratchet wheels on Sellita movements, in particular the SW200 series. Is this partly due to geometry, or is it materials used being slightly different? Not sure if it's one thing or a number of things that have cause these failures.

In terms of accuracy, that will depend on how much time the brand puts into fine tuning the movement, and it they don't put any in, it will be the luck of the draw. Sellita does not make their own balances and escapements - they get those from ETA/Nivarox. I've had some Sellita that were worse than the typical ETA, and some that were better in terms of accuracy.

Also in my experience, ETA parts are more widely available, and far less costly than Sellita parts are. For a while there were only a couple of places in the US to get parts, and it's only in the last couple of years that my local distributor here in Canada has had stock in Sellita parts. But even then the parts are double (or more) than what the same ETA parts cost.

So overall for me personally, I would pick the more proven and robust ETA versions over Sellita.

Cheers, Al


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## Champagne InHand

Al, I’m not a professional watchmaker. I do get to hang out ad observe my Swiss/Italian trained friend. I no longer have the eyes or the steady hands fit movements. 

He does and has been a watchmaker since childhood. 

I’ve only seen him tear up a couple of Sellita movements. 

I guess I should have used the term comparable. 

Thanks for pointing out the specifics. More often than not Jerry is working on ETA or older Rolex movements, but since finding parts for newer Swiss movements has become harder for him he usually is working with vintage pieces. 

It’s interesting that Sellita would mess with something quite proven. 

I guess it’s part of life to learn new stuff daily. Now I know. 

I’ve always loved most ETA movements. Any chance you know when the 2892/2893 is going off patent. 

I think it’s a highly underrated movement that some feel isn’t as good because of a lower jewel count. 

I guess I will steer clear of Sellita in the future. 

Any comments on movements like SoProd that some micro brands have tried using? 

It’s always nice to hear from other watchmakers. 


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## Joe Horner

Champagne InHand said:


> It's interesting ithat Sellita would mess with something quite proven.


In the example posted by Archer, the change they made to the ratchet wheels on the original SW200 was to utilise a standard Swiss (NISH 20-25) tooth form instead of the proprietory one that EA used. On the face of it that's a perfectly reasonable decision, which needed to be reviewed in light of in-service experience on the SW200-1.

ETA are hardly immune from needing in-service updates to correct faults. It's just that most of theirs have been made decades ago with virtually zero progress since 

eta: As for parts supply / prices. the situation over here is exactly the opposite of what Archer's experienced - at least for those of us without the luxury of a swatch Group parts account. ETA parts are becoming increasingly unavailable, while Sellita parts are coming online as they ramp up production.

A few typical price comparisons:

ETA 2824-2 automatic lower bridge £9.95
Sellita SW200.1 automatic lower bridge £2.55

ETA 2824-2 barrel complete £42.95
Sellita SW200.1 Barrel complete £13.50

ETA setting lever spring £6.95
Sellita setting lever spring £2.20


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## dugan.rec

Super helpful thread here. Is there a recommended interval on when these need servicing? Forgive the naive question, newbie here...


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## Vicc

9/10 times we get a watch with a sellita movement the reversing wheels have to be replaced.


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## Joe Horner

Vicc said:


> 9/10 times we get a watch with a sellita movement the reversing wheels have to be replaced.


Whereas I find about 3 out of 4 ETA 2824s I see need new intermediate wheels because of worn top pivots.


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## maillchort

Eta spent a massive amount of energy on their tooth profiles, back when there was little incentive to advance much at all in mechanical watchmaking. They are also masters of metallurgy. 

A friend of mine is in development and prototyping at a prestigious movement maker. They use Eta movements as a benchmark, and even copying their profiles they are far from the longevity based on artificial aging tests. A 7750 with 30 years aging shows wear but works perfectly, their products show wear and functional problems at 5-10 years (or less). His only available conclusion it the material and perhaps more importantly heat treatment is the difference. 

Eta has honed its craft and with the exception of some calibers (2000, UGH!) is on par or better than the rest of the best. 

It's the 80s Honda/Toyota/Volvo of watch movements.


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## Vicc

Joe Horner said:


> Whereas I find about 3 out of 4 ETA 2824s I see need new intermediate wheels because of worn top pivots.


The main difference here is that the 2824s were probably overdue for service whereas the sellita failed due to poor quality.


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## Joe Horner

Vicc said:


> The main difference here is that the 2824s were probably overdue for service whereas the sellita failed due to poor quality.


Without knowing the detailed service and use history of the watches concerned, exactly the same "overdue servicing" assumption could be made about the Sellitas.

In fact, I still see quite a few 2770 series movements which haven't suffered pivot wear despite decades of neglected servicing. Which suggests that, while servicing will obviously be a factor, something in the design or quality control of the later movements also plays a part.

Don't get me wrong - I don't knock ETA for the fun of it- they make perfectly serviceable movements _if_ they're maintained adequately - but neither do I worship at the Altar of Swatch forsaking all others.


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## dan360

Social engineering, conjecture, semantics, sensationalism. People hated on Swatch when it was easy to do, now they hate on Sellita. I'll hate on Swatch for their douchey moves lately in regards to ETA.


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## Charles Carroll

Archer said:


> I service far more ETA movements than Sellita, at least a 50:1 ratio, yet I've seen more damaged ratchet wheels on Sellita movements, in particular the SW200 series ...
> 
> Also in my experience, ETA parts are more widely available, and far less costly than Sellita parts are.
> 
> So overall for me personally, I would pick the more proven and robust ETA versions over Sellita.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Al,

Your post is exactly why I spend the time I do on watchuseek.

Many thanks,

Charles


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## yankeexpress

Since we know ETA contracted with Sellita for some period of years to make ETA branded movements, parts, etc. in the Sellita factory, how does an expert tell an ETA branded Sellita from an ETA branded ETA?


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## Joe Horner

yankeexpress said:


> Since we know ETA contracted with Sellita for some period of years to make ETA branded movements, parts, etc. in the Sellita factory, how does an expert tell an ETA branded Sellita from an ETA branded ETA?


The short answer is: you don't.

The longer answer is: y o u d o n ' t.


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## MX793

So did the revised tooth profile in the -1 revision resolve the issue with teeth shearing off, or are the watchmakers here still seeing wheels with missing teeth even on the -1 models?

What's the word on the SW300 vs the 2892? I notice the former has several more jewels than the latter. Any real benefit to those extra jeweled bearings in terms of robustness?


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## tototacoro

Who cares? Why care? What is care? I've own plenty of Oris watches, and the Sellita movements are just as good as eta movements.


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## NeedAG

MX793 said:


> So did the revised tooth profile in the -1 revision resolve the issue with teeth shearing off, or are the watchmakers here still seeing wheels with missing teeth even on the -1 models?
> 
> What's the word on the SW300 vs the 2892? I notice the former has several more jewels than the latter. Any real benefit to those extra jeweled bearings in terms of robustness?


Can't comment on the SW300, but from my [small sample of] experience with the SW200/-1, tooth profile issue has not been solved. :-(

Carnage inside pre-revision SW200s can be extensive. The ratchet wheel from my last one (bad pic but you see the problem: those are shavings, not dust):









While I have not seen an SW200-1 this bad, they sometimes need new wheels at service. Note this post by Archer is about an SW200*-1*:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/general-consensus-sellita-movement-vs-eta-4560411-post44412539.html

Have not [yet?] seen an ETA 2824-2 with a ratchet wheel mangled like this. :think:

IMO while the 2824-2 winding train is imperfect, damage from over-handwinding generally stays limited to the barrel bridge. On the other hand, sheared ratchet teeth (or bits thereof) can cause damage throughout the movement. o|

For this (and a few other reasons) I personally stick with ETA. YMMV


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## yankeexpress

Meanwhile we owners can be handwinding our Miyota 9015, Soprod M100 and Seiko 8L35 with no worries.


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## MX793

yankeexpress said:


> Meanwhile we owners can be handwinding our Miyota 9015, Soprod M100 and Seiko 8L35 with no worries.


Unfortunately, the Miyota is largely used by micros and mostly in watches too large for me (or that just don't appeal at all). As I don't have a local watchmaker, I'm hesitant to take the plunge on a micro not knowing if they'll be there tomorrow should I need a new crown or other parts or service. The NTH Subs are OK, though I'm not keen on homages in general, and I do like the Nodus Contrail...

Soprods are rare as hen's teeth. 8Ls are only in very high end, and very jumbo sized, Seikos.


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## RedsoxDon1

I didn’t usually add or reply in threads that are over a year old, but my SW-200 -1 is failing after 3 years in my ORIS Artix and I’ve had nothing but issues with the SW-200-1 in my Tag Aquaracer(it had spent over a year in and out with Tag to get repaired within 2 years and still doesn’t sound or run right). I have a 2000 Seamaster 300 professional that I bought new with an ETA movement that has been serviced once in 20 years and has given me no issues. Also own a Baum et Mercier with an ETA for 7 years and have not had an issue with it. I think Sellita is terrible and will never buy another watch with one of their movements.


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## gear1box

RedsoxDon1 said:


> I didn't usually add or reply in threads that are over a year old, but my SW-200 -1 is failing after 3 years in my ORIS Artix and I've had nothing but issues with the SW-200-1 in my Tag Aquaracer(it had spent over a year in and out with Tag to get repaired within 2 years and still doesn't sound or run right). . . .


Wow Don: two black balls in a row from the Sellita urn. i would be reasonably disappointed too.

With ETA screwing down third party movement availability for non-Swatch brands i am seeing more Sellita substitution. I've got my eye on a 2892-equipped Baum&Mercier at "J*shop" and i guess i might have to pull the trigger since many newer B&M's are going Sellita.

-- gearbox


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