# Information on Vintage Zenith Calibre 156



## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

Hello 
I have been waiting to purchase a vintage 2 register chronograph, in 18k gold for a very long time. I finally pulled the trigger on one, 2 days ago on Ebay. The brands that I was interested in were; Omega, Longines, Breitling, Ulysse Nardin, Baume mercier, Zenith. The watch case had to be untouched, meaning no polishing, the dial had to be original and untouched. The movement had to be any of the following: Lemania, Venus, Valjoux, Martel, Excelsior Park. Basically anything but Landeron, would have okay. I don't know why I just do not like Landeron movements. Any how I ended up buying Zenith Cal.156. The only thing that I know about this movement is that before the EL PRIMERO calibers, there were 146/156 family that we can find in the Universal watches ( from Martel watch). That is all I know, can any of you experts help me learn more about this movement.
The following pictures, are from the watch that I have purchased, I still have not received it.


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

Oh, one more picture







I also need to know about the different variations of this movement like 156D and so on.
Thank you


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

silverghost1907 said:


> Oh, one more picture
> View attachment 1161189
> 
> I also need to know about the different variations of this movement like 156D and so on.
> Thank you


Congratulations and thanks for sharing. Only one thing you forgot: a picture of the back (outside).

It looks like you got a nice all original Zenith chronograph from the 1950's with Zenith cal. 156 D. The version with additional hour counter (cal. 156 H) would be rarer to find. 
Cal. 156 is one of the bigger versions and was used mostly in the 1950's. Here you are probably getting a chronograph with 37 or 38 mm diameter. 
This movement as you already know is identical to the one which was also used by Universal Genève, which may be useful to find spare parts, if ever you need any. 
A service manual for these unfortunately I haven't seen yet.

Since as we can see in the excellent pictures, the movement it is not equipped with incabloc, it possibly dates to before 1955, though that is difficult to tell. It could also be that Zenith still used these movements as such in the second half of the 1950's.


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

Thank you so much for your help, it also came with the original band unused.


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

Any other thoughts, I also would like to know about the crown. The crown is unsigned, since the watch seems to be almost untouched, I figured that the crown is an original. Also the seller claims it to be. The watch has never been polished so I know the logo has not faded away. Also is it possible for the crown and pushers to be solid gold?
I have seen in some rare cases from that era, in which that the crown and pushers are solid gold. Again any more info would be greatly appreciated.


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

silverghost1907 said:


> Any other thoughts, I also would like to know about the crown. The crown is unsigned, since the watch seems to be almost untouched, I figured that the crown is an original. Also the seller claims it to be. The watch has never been polished so I know the logo has not faded away. Also is it possible for the crown and pushers to be solid gold?
> I have seen in some rare cases from that era, in which that the crown and pushers are solid gold. Again any more info would greatly appreciated.


It looks to me like a nice period crown, maybe original, though I would have expected the original to be a signed crown.
Caseback looks very good too, numbers haven't been polished away.
I doubt that the pushers and the crown are solid gold, usually they are not.
Rare original buckle. This is normally goldplated as well.
Again, all in all a very nice watch, a great addition to your collection.
Excellent quality and very reasonable price.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

I'll throw in my response for what ever its worth. ;-)

Could it be the original crown? Yes, it could be. But as SP said, I would have expected a signed crown. It is typically that way on watches made by Zenith, Rolex, Omega, etc. But anything is possible. The one thing to keep in mind is that a crown can be the first thing any one loses on a watch. If it is not fastened properly or perhaps struck wrong, it can come off rather quickly. My Zenith Cal 40 in gold had a replacement crown and it is in rather fine shape.

Could the crown and pushers be solid gold? There is a possibility the crown could be, but without destructive testing, it would be hard to tell. Given that the hallmark on your watch is 18K, I would guess not. I say that in guesswork because it has to mate up with a steel stem, and if you were to try to overwind it, the gold would strip quickly.

I sincerely doubt that the pushers are anything but plated steel for the same reason. The force required to use them is not much, but it would most likely bend a similar part in 18K in a very short period of time.

Not having held the watch in my hands and under a loupe, I would say it is original with the possible, and I mean possible exception of the crown. If the appearance of the crown matches the other gold, I would leave it alone. You can always get a gold or GP authentic crown. Getting it to match, however, would be a challenge.

Best regards,
Dan


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

Thank you very much Dan, I really appreciate your input. I just want to ask one more question, what do you mean by challenge for finding the right match for the crown. I see a lot of GP crowns on ebay, can you guide me to finding the right crown. 
Thank you again.
best regards,
Paya


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

silverghost1907 said:


> Thank you very much Dan, I really appreciate your input. I just want to ask one more question, what do you mean by challenge for finding the right match for the crown. I see a lot of GP crowns on ebay, can you guide me to finding the right crown.
> Thank you again.
> best regards,
> Paya


What I meant by challenge is that gold can look different. There is rose gold, yellow gold, white gold, and on and on. Telling someone you want a replacement gold crown could lead to a crown not matching the case. it would look out of sorts for sure then!

Cheers,
Dan


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

I also contacted Zenith in Switzerland, regarding the watch and this is what _*Cecile Aguillaume, ZENITH Historian *_had to say:

"Hello I Just spoke to you on the phone, I just need some info on this watch, I want to know if Zenith ever produced 18k gold crowns and pushers, or they were always gold plated. Also was there a time that the crowns were unsigned or were they always signed.
It was a pleasure speaking to you 
best regards, 
P Tavassoli"
*

"Dear Sir,*
*Thank you again for your interest in Zenith watches. According to my knowledge, for the kind of model you own, the pushers were usually in solid gold whereas the crowns were usually gold-platted. For this model the crown was not usually signed and they often were made in our subsidiary in Besançon (France). It seems to me that your piece is fully genuine: it is very beautiful and you are lucky to own it in such a good state. *
*I hope this helps and wish you a pleasant summer*
*Best regards*

*Cecile Aguillaume*
*Zenith Historian*"


"Dear, Cecile Aguillaume

Thank you so much for your outstandingly quick reply. I really appreciate your input, it puts my mind at ease to know that you think the crown is genuine. The reason I had doubts was due to lack of information regarding these watches, 146/156 calibers. Also I see a lot of similar models with signed crowns. So how can one tell? Is it the year the model was made that explains this? Do you know how I can get more info, is there a book or a website? Does zenith have any printings on these vintage watches?
Again I am extremely happy and impressed by your quick response.
warm regards,
P Tavassoli"
_*

"Dear Sir,*__*Thank you for your kind message. It is true that this topic is very complicated, even/especially for us! *_
_*As far as I know, the signed crowns were put in Le Locle and the unsigned in Besançon. The signed one are usually gold-platted whereas the unsigned can sometimes be in solid gold. There is no rule and we check everytime with the reference number but it is tricky as well because there was a change in the reference system at the time so we cannot always find every details. I can have a look in our archive if you want. I just have to tell you that I won't be in Switzerland before the 3rd of September so It won't be such a quick answer this time! *_
_*We'll launch a comprehensive book about our history and models in 2015 (published end 2014 normally). If you are interested in the history of Zenith and read a little french, you can go to this website if you want: https://sites.google.com/site/zenithistoric/Home*_
_*at your disposal for any further question
*_
_*Very best regards*_
_*Cecile Aguillaume
*__*Le 23 juil. 2013 à 13:01, Paya Tavassoli a écrit :"*_


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks very much for the info - and the link provided. There seems to be very interesting info there, pity my french isn't up to it.....

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Yes, thanks for providing the information!  I am surprised at the composition of the pushers. But it is always good to get verification straight from the source!

Thanks again,

Dan


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

Hello 
I am still waiting for the package, it was supposed to be here today based on the tracking. I believe they screwed up at post office, because the item had cleared customs on Thursday and now it has been sent back to customs. So I have my fingers crossed, I hope they do not damage or send the item back. I will keep you guys posted.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

silverghost1907 said:


> Hello
> I am still waiting for the package, it was supposed to be here today based on the tracking. I believe they screwed up at post office, because the item had cleared customs on Thursday and now it has been sent back to customs. So I have my fingers crossed, I hope they do not damage or send the item back. I will keep you guys posted.


Looking forward to hearing about it! :-!


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

Hello 
I finally got it today, I was so worried for customs, they did not even open it. I only paid to $58.00 dollars for customs which is amazing. The watch is everything I hoped and more. It is completely brand new, all the functions work perfectly. I could not have asked for a better vintage 2 register chronograph. I will post some pictures this weekend.


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

sempervivens said:


> ...I doubt that the pushers and the crown are solid gold, usually they are not.
> Rare original buckle. This is normally goldplated as well...


Lo credo anch'io. I also believe.;-)


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

OK as promised here are some pictures.


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

silverghost1907 said:


> OK as promised here are some pictures.


Lovely.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

very nice vintage zenith|>


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## silverghost1907 (Mar 4, 2013)

I just wanted to post the last emails that I received from Cecile Aguillaume regarding the crown and pushers of my watch being gold or gold plated.

"Dear, Cecile Aguillaume
I hope you had a great vacation with your daughter, as upon your request I am emailing you regarding my 18K gold Zenith Cal. 156. Any more information would be greatly appreciated. 
best regards,
Paya"

_*"Dear Paya, 
Thank you for your kind email. I hope you had a pleasant summer as well. 
I did researches yesterday, but as I thought this watch was made in our subsidiary in Besançon (France). We lack the archives to find the exact date of production. I think that this watch dates back to the end of the 1940's earlies 1950's. 
I remain at your disposal for any further question 
Best regards

Cecile Aguillaume
Historian"*_

"Dear, Cecile Aguillaume
Thank you for your reply, I was just wondering if it is fair to assume that the crown and pushers are solid gold? Since the watch was made in France.
Best regards"
_*
"Dear Paya,I would say that it is quite safe to presume that the crown is in solid gold. As for the pushers, due to the technical particularities of stamping gold, which is a soft metal, they were often made in gold-plated steel so without having the watch disassembled by a watchmaker it is hard to tell. The hints are leading us to solid gold for crowns and pushers for your watch but in no way it can be a certainty. 
Best regards
Cecile"*_


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## dantan (Dec 16, 2014)

Beautiful vintage Zenith!


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## SW2201 (Jun 10, 2015)

Hi Zenith experts

I purchased one of these beauties this week and would like to ask a few questions please. The case reference for the watch as 16518, but I've also seen examples of similar watches where the reference is 19518. So far as I can tell from the examples I've seen, 19518 is the incabloc version for the 156 movement and 16518 is for the non-incabloc. Is this assumption correct? Is there any further confirmation for the ~1955 cut-over for the different versions?
I would also like info on the 6-digit case serial numbers. From what I've seen, there is no accurate means to date the watch using this serial number. Is this correct?
If the serial number can be used, what would the closest date for a 126xxx / 16518 watch be?

Thanks for assisting.


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

Please post some pictures. What you say about the case reference is interesting. It seems to me that most of the 1950's cal 156 chronographs come without incabloc. AFAIK there is no dating list for the serial numbers of these gold cases.


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## SW2201 (Jun 10, 2015)

Hopefully the attachment appears in the post. Dates are as provided by sellers / owners.


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

That's some very nice research, thank you for sharing. Please allow me to add my 2 cents.

I know that Zenith produced 18 k gold chronographs with cal 143 in the early 1950's. Those have Zenith case numbers which can be dated ca. 1952-1954. 

But after 1954 there is no more sign of gold chronographs with cal 143 (although Zenith continued using cal 143-6 for steel chronographs until the late 1950's).

I would deduct from this that ca. 1954 Zenith went back to cal 156 for the gold chronographs. 

The serial numbers you show range from 12558x to 141834, suggesting that at least 16000 were made. 

That indicates ample production to be used during the rest of the 1950's and the early 1960's: say 1953-1963.

Also from your research it appears that the first 7000 pieces or so didn't have incabloc, but after that they all have incabloc. I would conclude that the first 7000 (without incabloc) were produced ca. 1953/55.

If you divide the 16000 pieces over 10 years, you get 1600 gold chronographs for each year. It seems a lot, but then again the cal 156 chronographs are not rare.

The style of the dials (with applied numerals and/or indices) and hands (usually dauphine hands) is typical for the 1950's.


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

I wanted to add that the above reminds me of the story of cal 135: 

a top model from the 1950's, produced from about 1950 to 1960, 11000 were made, it was sold from about 1951 until ca. 1962.


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## SW2201 (Jun 10, 2015)

Thanks for the feedback sempervivens. Took a while to get back here following an unsuccessful upgrade of my PC to Windows 10.

Now patiently waiting for my 16518 156 to arrive...


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