# Why havent vintage Waltham's held value?



## jbbutts (Feb 13, 2012)

I have a vintage Waltham, swiss made, automatic watch that I picked up cheap on eBay. Why are they so inexpensive? Vintage Swiss watches selling for next to nothing? I'm trying to get into the vintage world and dont understand this! 

Thanks


----------



## sherwoodschwartz (Apr 16, 2009)

jbbutts said:


> I have a vintage Waltham, swiss made, automatic watch that I picked up cheap on eBay. Why are they so inexpensive? Vintage Swiss watches selling for next to nothing? I'm trying to get into the vintage world and dont understand this!
> 
> Thanks


of the american manufacturers, waltham was the most behind the times with regards to wristwatch production. they failed to properly tool up for the new fad and were left behind when it took off, ergo the company lost the inroads to make it a good go of it. more knowledgeable collector's than i know more of its history, but, apparently, the company was not well-managed during this time (20s through 40s). although they made excellent pocketwatches, this failure in teh wrist market was a serious blow. so, unlike hamilton and elgin, the domestic interest in waltham waned long before the american watch industry crashed and burned. there just aren;t a lot of people around now who collect waltham wristwatches at all, and even fewer who collect those that have imported movements.

to add a more general note- to most collectors, ebauches are less desirable than manufacture movements. not that they aren't collectible, it's just that many devalue them. when speaking about collector's of US made watches, it's almost a death knell. i can think of very few diehard aficionados of american watches who don't care what's under the hood. there are a few hamilton designs that still peak collector interest even though they have swiss movements, but there aren't that many.

so, if you like your new waltham then enjoy it, learn more about it, and buy more. you're in for a treat because you won't have a lot of competition. good luck.


----------



## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

When I was a kid, they were just another inexpensive watch, like Helbros.

I remember one in my former store's pre-owned and vintage cases, in was from 
1925 or 28, it was kinda hard on the eyes. I don't recall if it ever sold.


----------



## jbbutts (Feb 13, 2012)

sherwoodschwartz said:


> of the american manufacturers, waltham was the most behind the times with regards to wristwatch production. they failed to properly tool up for the new fad and were left behind when it took off, ergo the company lost the inroads to make it a good go of it. more knowledgeable collector's than i know more of its history, but, apparently, the company was not well-managed during this time (20s through 40s). although they made excellent pocketwatches, this failure in teh wrist market was a serious blow. so, unlike hamilton and elgin, the domestic interest in waltham waned long before the american watch industry crashed and burned. there just aren;t a lot of people around now who collect waltham wristwatches at all, and even fewer who collect those that have imported movements.
> 
> to add a more general note- to most collectors, ebauches are less desirable than manufacture movements. not that they aren't collectible, it's just that many devalue them. when speaking about collector's of US made watches, it's almost a death knell. i can think of very few diehard aficionados of american watches who don't care what's under the hood. there are a few hamilton designs that still peak collector interest even though they have swiss movements, but there aren't that many.
> 
> so, if you like your new waltham then enjoy it, learn more about it, and buy more. you're in for a treat because you won't have a lot of competition. good luck.


Thanks for the useful information. I greatly appreciate it!

I enjoy vintage watches of all types and brands...I'm just relatively new to the game...so I am just starting to pick out some pieces that I like at a reasonable cost before I make any major purchases.

Thanks again!


----------



## harris498 (Feb 10, 2011)

That is, in my opinion, the best way to start. You can later sell off the pieces you decide you don't want, and many times break even or sometimes even turn a profit. But if you're anything like me, you'll find that you want to keep most of the pieces you bought with an amateur eye when first starting out


----------



## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

jbbutts said:


> I have a vintage Waltham, swiss made, automatic watch that I picked up cheap on eBay. Why are they so inexpensive? Vintage Swiss watches selling for next to nothing? I'm trying to get into the vintage world and dont understand this!
> 
> Thanks


Waltham is only a desirable brand for collectors of American watches, so this post-American watch fails the test. To everybody else, Waltham is just another low-rent generic brand. Part-jewelled French Walthams, and later quartz Walthams, have reinforced this view.

And just being 'Swiss' is not enough to command a premium. Ebay is awash with old Swiss watches, so the brand really needs to stand out, or the specification needs to be 'exotic' (chronograph, alarm, triple-calendar, etc), for a Swiss vintage watch to sell for more than a vintage Russian or Japanese watch.


----------



## howards4th (Jan 22, 2012)

For me, I collect what I like and I saw an awesome looking Waltham on the bay the other day ...went for 25 bucks. I would of bid on it but I got the ending time of the auction wrong, two kids and lack of sleep will do that to ya :-d
I've been collecting for a little over a year now and I started out thinking ..."did I pay too much?" You definitely get that kid in a candy store mentality when you first start collecting but after while you know what you like. As a previous post pointed out; if you decide to sell and make profit, BONUS! if not and you break ever or you don't the point is you had fun buying it, wearing it and enjoying it. That's my 2-cents


----------



## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

The value of "collectibles" is typically tied to the question of "what makes it special". In the case of a Swiss Waltham, the answer to that question is "almost nothing". It's a common, mass-produced swiss ebauche, imported by an otherwise unremarkable American company that happened to acquire the rights to the "Waltham" name after the real company collapsed in the 50's. There are probably thousands of that exact same watch around, hundreds of thousands more that are the exact same just with different names on the dial and movement, and millions that are only slightly different in unimportant (to a collector) ways. These types of watches are, unfortunately, in the worst position possible for a vintage watch, because the cost of regular service alone will almost always be worth more then you'd ever be able to sell the watch for, even if you waited another fifty years. The one advantage to them (presently, at least) is that even after the cost of a service, they're still cheaper then a "New" mechanical of similar quality (but that assumes the watch is in decent shape to begin with).


----------



## artb (Nov 4, 2009)

I have a huge wholesale jeweler catalog intended for use by customers as well. 1931 652 pages by Fort Dearborn Watch & Clock Co. Chicago. List prices shown, but 50%+ discounting to dealer. Huge quantity of w.w. with odd Swiss names. Only Americans listed are Waltham and Ingersoll. 45 pages total watches. $1624. -$208. by most expensive Swiss lady w.w. named TRUE. Waltham w.w. $547. -$24. 108 different w.w. P.W. are 80+ different $732. Premier Maximus to $18. 

Of the 108 different w.w. Walthams there are a few really desirable collectibles among the 18 listed at $100+. I will copy couple pages of these soon.

You will not see these fine quality old gold cased ones normally as cheap sale items. There are millions of the cheaper later ones creating the depression of the Waltham collector market.


----------



## Raffa (Feb 14, 2012)

I would just like to share this beautiful Waltham and I got this one for less than $30.00. It has an all stainless steel case and about 36mm excluding the crown. It also has a textured dial.


----------



## jbbutts (Feb 13, 2012)

Raffa said:


> I would just like to share this beautiful Waltham and I got this one for less than $30.00. It has an all stainless steel case and about 36mm excluding the crown. It also has a textured dial.


That is a gorgeous timepiece!


----------



## Raffa (Feb 14, 2012)

jbbutts said:


> That is a gorgeous timepiece!


Thank you. The price was also more than reasonable.


----------



## artb (Nov 4, 2009)

[QUOTE=artb

Of the 108 different w.w. Walthams there are a few really desirable collectibles among the 18 listed at $100+. I will copy couple pages of these soon.

You will not see these fine quality old gold cased ones normally as cheap sale items. There are millions of the cheaper later ones creating the value depression for the Waltham collectors.


----------



## redcow (Dec 14, 2011)

People collect for different reasons and monetary or resale value is only one of them. AbslomRob's post strikes me as a bit snobbish and dismissive of collectors who buy objects simply because they appeal to them; the Waltham automatic shown here being a prime example. I have a hand wind of the same era that I paid US$ 35.00 for and it certainly has more class than any contemporary $35.00 watch I can think of and the design also represents/recalls a particular era. 
Although the title of this thread has to do with monetary value, this is not the only kind of value that objects can have. The simple pleasure of wearing a 50 year old watch that looks well crafted, is pleasantly designed and ticks away day after day is enough for many of us.


----------



## artb (Nov 4, 2009)

Very nicely written by Redcow about collector attitude I think we all share actually as a basis for interest although we sometimes get obsessive about a particular attribute..100 nicely serviced and renovated Waltham, and other American mechanicals 1940-70. Average less than $20. each.


----------



## jbbutts (Feb 13, 2012)

redcow said:


> People collect for different reasons and monetary or resale value is only one of them. AbslomRob's post strikes me as a bit snobbish and dismissive of collectors who buy objects simply because they appeal to them; the Waltham automatic shown here being a prime example. I have a hand wind of the same era that I paid US$ 35.00 for and it certainly has more class than any contemporary $35.00 watch I can think of and the design also represents/recalls a particular era.
> Although the title of this thread has to do with monetary value, this is not the only kind of value that objects can have. The simple pleasure of wearing a 50 year old watch that looks well crafted, is pleasantly designed and ticks away day after day is enough for many of us.


I like this post. My question, yes, was leaning towards the monetary side...but simply because I was curious as to how I picked up a vintage piece, with a Swiss movement, so cheaply.

I bought the watch because I enjoyed it. And as a collector and enthusiast, that is how I make my purchases. Every piece I own is important to me in one way or another.

Thanks everyone for the info


----------



## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

redcow said:


> People collect for different reasons and monetary or resale value is only one of them. AbslomRob's post strikes me as a bit snobbish and dismissive of collectors who buy objects simply because they appeal to them; the Waltham automatic shown here being a prime example. I have a hand wind of the same era that I paid US$ 35.00 for and it certainly has more class than any contemporary $35.00 watch I can think of and the design also represents/recalls a particular era.
> Although the title of this thread has to do with monetary value, this is not the only kind of value that objects can have. The simple pleasure of wearing a 50 year old watch that looks well crafted, is pleasantly designed and ticks away day after day is enough for many of us.


Yes, people collect for different reasons; that wasn't really my point. The issue being discussed isn't about what people are willing to collect, it's about how much they're willing to PAY to collect. I too have many <$50 watches that I truly enjoy and value far more then any $1000+ Rolex or Omega. The question to you Redcow, is would you have paid $100 for that hand wind watch? $200? $500? I'm guessing not. Why would you, when you can get it for $35? See how that works? Its not snobbish, it's how commerce works. The cost of something is a reflection of how much people are willing to pay.

What's snobbish is the obsession people have over the big marques like Omega and Rolex. It drives me wild to see Tudors going for thousands of dollars, while a Bulova of the same (or far better) quality goes for hundreds. And yet, that's the way it is; the association to Rolex gives the brand that extra bit of "value" in the eyes of the market.


----------



## bjohnson (Nov 28, 2006)

AbslomRob said:


> What's snobbish is the obsession people have over the big marques like Omega and Rolex. It drives me wild to see Tudors going for thousands of dollars, while a Bulova of the same (or far better) quality goes for hundreds. And yet, that's the way it is; the association to Rolex gives the brand that extra bit of "value" in the eyes of the market.


I LOVE THAT!!

Let them pay big bucks for the Omegas and Rolex's while I happily collect Bulovas, Gruens, Benrus, Elgins, Walthams, and even LeCoultre. Hell, one of my favourite watches is a Ouvi and I've never even seen another. And the one in the forfront of my mind these days is a 0 jewel 1946 Ingersoll Mickey mouse


----------



## redcow (Dec 14, 2011)

AbslomRob said:


> Yes, people collect for different reasons; that wasn't really my point. The issue being discussed isn't about what people are willing to collect, it's about how much they're willing to PAY to collect. I too have many <$50 watches that I truly enjoy and value far more then any $1000+ Rolex or Omega. The question to you Redcow, is would you have paid $100 for that hand wind watch? $200? $500? I'm guessing not. Why would you, when you can get it for $35? See how that works? Its not snobbish, it's how commerce works. The cost of something is a reflection of how much people are willing to pay.
> 
> What's snobbish is the obsession people have over the big marques like Omega and Rolex. It drives me wild to see Tudors going for thousands of dollars, while a Bulova of the same (or far better) quality goes for hundreds. And yet, that's the way it is; the association to Rolex gives the brand that extra bit of "value" in the eyes of the market.


OK, your point on "value" is taken, and I acknowledged the fact that I was off topic with my comment. However, I was responding to my perception of the "tone": of your email (Probably misunderstood and something that has gotten me into trouble more than once!) which sounded to me like "Walthams are basically junk that's why they are so cheap." You probably didn't mean this exactly but that's how I heard it at first reading......one of the problems with this form of communication, perhaps. Anyway, I get your economics lesson and totally agree with you on the "Tudor" etc issue.


----------



## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

I suppose my original post was a tad dismissive; my personal road to watch collecting started with Waltham, and I've done a fair amount of research into the history of the brand both before and after their collapse in the 50's. Fact is, some of the Swiss Walthams ARE basically junk, produced by a company whose sole purpose was to turn a profit at any price. And while that doesn't make the good quality ones any worse, it does mean that you can't just look at the dial and say "oh, it's a Waltham, it must be good!". 

Therein lies at least one of the keys to the "value" of Rolex; people know that if their watch says Rolex (assuming it's real), that it's a high-quality watch. End of story. To some degree, that's true of all the "big" marques. Even the Tudors; you know it isn't as good as a Rolex made movement, but you know that company wouldn't have sold junk, so you can still trust the quality behind the name. Names like Bulova or Benrus or even Hamilton have become depressed in part because through the last 30 or 40 years, those names have become associated with low-quality pieces (or in Benrus's case, things that aren't even watches).


----------



## redcow (Dec 14, 2011)

AbslomRob said:


> I suppose my original post was a tad dismissive; my personal road to watch collecting started with Waltham, and I've done a fair amount of research into the history of the brand both before and after their collapse in the 50's. Fact is, some of the Swiss Walthams ARE basically junk, produced by a company whose sole purpose was to turn a profit at any price. And while that doesn't make the good quality ones any worse, it does mean that you can't just look at the dial and say "oh, it's a Waltham, it must be good!".
> 
> Therein lies at least one of the keys to the "value" of Rolex; people know that if their watch says Rolex (assuming it's real), that it's a high-quality watch. End of story. To some degree, that's true of all the "big" marques. Even the Tudors; you know it isn't as good as a Rolex made movement, but you know that company wouldn't have sold junk, so you can still trust the quality behind the name. Names like Bulova or Benrus or even Hamilton have become depressed in part because through the last 30 or 40 years, those names have become associated with low-quality pieces (or in Benrus's case, things that aren't even watches).


Well said and the truth. Sorry if my post was a bit defensive, I just happen to like that particular Waltham! Truth is, there are a lot of unremarkable Swiss watches out there from this period. As I prowl the street stalls of Saigon, it is case/face Design that I look for, rather than name, in the lower price range. In addition, there are so many good fakes here that it sometimes seems like the cheap watches are the only real ones! Case in point: I found a guy with an interesting looking Girard Peragaux chronograph. It opened by removing four screws on the back and the movement looked authentic. He wanted US$550. Then a couple of weeks later, I saw a guy who had THREE of the same watch and was asking US$800 each. How could there possibly be so many of this unusual (and very cool) watch in Saigon? Gotta be a fake, right? So I shake my head and look for something interesting and inexpensive, like the nice Exacto I posted last week, and postpone the buyer's remorse for another week! Thanks for an interesting discussion!


----------



## Drfp (Jan 8, 2010)

Waltham is a mixed bag granted but I have a gem I was able to get on the bay for $17!!!! Vintage (Late 60's or early 70's ?) for the cost of a good lunch!


----------

