# How accurate is the VO2 MAX on the Ambit?



## Clevor (Sep 20, 2010)

I was surprised to see this show up in Movescount - what a bonus! But I imagine it might not be totally accurate. Anybody know how the Ambit calculates VO2 MAX? Because normally you'd have to see a sports physician, who puts you on a treadmill and measure your breathing input/output and do some other stuff.

But from the readings I get for myself, I guess it's pretty accurate :-d. It's nowhere near >65 (for most pro road cyclists), or in the 80-90 range like Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Cadel Evans, or Ivan Basso.


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## jcgoobee (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks for confirming this, Clevor. I was thinking the same because I have not noticed any settings on VO2 from the Movescount at all, nor I know how to adjust it anyway. ;-)


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## jkm00 (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that work with firstbeat, alternatively they use the same basic science. The whitepapers are interesting, knock yourself out 
White papers | Physiology | Firstbeat
Research and publications | Physiology | Firstbeat


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## jcgoobee (Oct 6, 2009)

Wow, now that's technical materials to read. I can't say I understand more than 1/3 of what they're talking about in the white paper (EPOC and Oxygen consumption), but will certainly try again when I have some more free time later. Thanks for passing along.


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## Clevor (Sep 20, 2010)

jkm00 said:


> I'm pretty sure that work with firstbeat, alternatively they use the same basic science. The whitepapers are interesting, knock yourself out
> White papers | Physiology | Firstbeat
> Research and publications | Physiology | Firstbeat


Thanks for the info. I had guessed it must use heartrate, possibly based on age (respiration?), since there is no other parameter the Ambit is measuring. It's also how HR monitors/cyclocomputers estimate calories burned.

Jcgoobee, you can't adjust anything about VO2 MAX in Movescount; it's a calculation based on heartrate and how fast you are running a lap, I'd say. The faster you are running a lap, the higher it will be. To put it simplisticly, the faster you can run a lap and the lower the heart rate, I imagine the higher the VO2 MAX would be.


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## jcgoobee (Oct 6, 2009)

Hey Clevor, thanks for the clarification. I do have a couple of follow up questions to you and jkm00 though. They might be super silly ones but hey, I'd never learn if I don't ask.

Questions 1, when exactly should I start pretting the "Start" button when I exercise? Should I "start" while warming up, or when I actually start running? In addition, should I "Stop" after I cool down, or immediately after I stop running? I'm a bit confused on that part.

Question 2, I notice that my PTE value continues to drop, even I run the same route and the same pace. Is this normal? I thought the PTE is an indicator of how well the training is doing to my body. For instance, 2 for maintaining, and 3 for improving. When I first got my Ambit on 5/5, the PTE value used to be 3.3 and now 2.6! Is this normal? If I do the same exercise, why would it continue to drop?

Thanks in advance for helping me out.


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

jcgoobee

I'll add the caveat that I'm no expert but I have been training with a 6TD for about 5 months and now have an Ambit too. I did a VO2 max test in lab conditions in December and I entered the details into the T6D using METS. I've seen my VO2 Max jump recently as measured by the T6D and I am sure that my fitness is improving quite a bit as my running is getting faster over a specific distance (less time to complete the set distance) and my off-road cycling fitness is improving also. Calorie burn has dropped a little and my PTE is also a little lower than it was - both of which I put down to improved fitness. I think my body is getting used to my training levels and it's time to up the level again! 

So I think your drop is probably due to an improved fitness level (unless you are just not working as hard as you were). For me getting PTE much above 4 is proving very hard now unless I run for quite a while and at a hot pace where my HR is 90%+ for the duration of the run. Cycling seems never to get above 3.8.

As for warm up and warm down, I guess it depends on what you want to monitor. I tend to start after monitoring after a warm up for PT sessions and stop it immediately but for running and cycling or more general gym work, weights etc I tend to start it when I start the warmup and stop it after a warm down. I also stop, save and start a fresh when I switch - so if I have a 45 run followed by 45 mins in the gym I will measure each session individually.

I don't claim to understand it all but it's pretty good using moves count and tracking progress and I am definitely getting fitter though as I said it's getting to be much harder work to push myself these days then when I first started.


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## jcgoobee (Oct 6, 2009)

Hi there, eeun,

Thank you very much for the details about VO2 and PTE. Now that makes more sense now, to see my PTE continues to drop just because my fitness level is improving. I still run the same pace and distance every day, but I feel that I could run farther and not as exhausted as I used to be. Granted I still sweat a lot, but I'm so glad that the daily hard work pays off.

The PTE/EPOC is a valuable tool, to determine the fitness level and see how one can push himself/herself harder to acheive for the higher PTE. I'm so glad that Ambit incorporates the GPS and HR functions altogether, so I can keep track of my performance realistically. Paying more than $500 is a lot for a plastic watch, but I'm very satisfied with its quality and even my wife didn't critisize my purchase this time. 

Thanks!


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## Clevor (Sep 20, 2010)

Wow, your guys PTE is that low??? Mine is always above 5 or maxed out, but since I got the Ambit, now I know why! :-(

You guys are obviously running/training regularly. I only jog every other week so I can't get fit at it. Moreover, I got a high max heart rate (200 bpm), and this spells trouble. Because due to my inefficiency, I have to use most of that max heart rate to run as fast as somebody else who is more fit.

Since I got the Ambit and saw my heartrate during a run, I said Holy Sh_t! I'm averaging close to 180 bpm. I mean that is like doing a (single) training interval on a bike at 90% of max heart rate for 36 minutes! Or like doing a time trial. On my last run, I maxed at 194 (and I didn't even feel that bad on that run). No wonder I hate that 3.6 mile jog. So thanks to the Ambit, I feel compelled to back off and relax more during a run, and even walk at certain points. I'm not a pro who's training so I don't need to kill myself.

I've used a HR meter when I was mountain biking or now when I road cycle, but I never used one on a jog. Needless to say, I'm not cut out to be much of a runner. The main reason why I jog now is for cross training to keep aerobically fit. It also works different muscles than cycling. I certainly don't do it because I like it.

As for when to turn it on during exercise, I just start it when I start a jog (after warming up) and stop it when I'm finished (before cooldown).


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

I should add I only had the Ambit for a week but have been using a T6D for 5 months so PTE I guess for me should be TE as it is on the T6D which only goes to level 5. There's no escaping the fact that as fitness improves your heart rate will drop as the effort you expend gets lower for any given level of activity - therefore the PTE will drop accordingly which is good. The bad news is as you get fitter you have to work much harder to make improvements and it's good to mix up your training so the body doesn't get over conditioned to one type of activity. So to push PTE back up you'll need to work harder. Calorie burn drops with fitness too - a [email protected] if you're trying to lose weight (as I am) as well as get fitter.

Clevor, Your max heart rate is hardwired - it's genetic/how you were born and it lowers with age - mine's now 170 bpm. When I run hard (for me that is) on a 5k run I can hit 167 bpm and will average over 156 bmp, never dropping below 90% MHR. PTE will typically be 4.5ish currently (on T6D). I had been running 2 or sometimes 3 times per week until I pulled my hamstring and I'm in recovery so no running for another 2 weeks :-| I'm still pretty active in the gym and with my mountain biking. Like you I run for fitness not enjoyment as MTB is my main focus.

I'd suggest you try and run 2 or ideally 3 time a week for at least 30 mins if you want to improve your fitness. You might want to check out a book 'Brain Training for Runners' by Matt Fitzgerald. He talks about training your brain to 'not give in' when the going gets tough and I'm finding it very enlightening. I'm finding running less of a chore and almost enjoyable after 3 months of doing it but it is hard work.

Check out this Suunto link Suunto Training parametres - YouTube


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## jcgoobee (Oct 6, 2009)

Hi Clevor, not sure if your actual age is what your profile says but if it's true, I admire your will to continue exercising, especially that 3.6 mile jog. I'm much younger than 58 but at this time, I can only do 2 miles run each day. You've definitely beaten me in the dust. You mentioned that your PTE is always above 5? I thought there are only 5 levels of PTE and 5 is already the maximum?


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## jcgoobee (Oct 6, 2009)

Hi Eeun, thanks for your insights and it's very helpful. I have some relevant questions though if you don't mind.

When I first started running routinely (about twice to three times a week) about 2 months ago, I could only do 1.26 miles a day (please don't laugh). I could hardly catch my breath and since I didn't have a HR monitor, I would have no idea of what my PTE was until I got my Ambit on 5/6. Again, it was way a bit over 3 PTE then it dropped slowly till mid 2s last week, so I started pushing myself to run farther to 1.76 miles a day, then now, 2 miles a day (yes, daily). So, if I continue this pace, my PTE will drop over time and I should push myself run farther or faster to achieve a higher PTE? My average HR is 144 and my last peak HR was 155. I don't have heart disease whatsoever, but psychologically, I felt really exhausted after that 2 miles run. Here's the link to my last run:

Another question is, I heard (some youtube videos) that doing cardio type of exercising such as running, for more than 20 minutes is a good start for burning fat. Does that mean that running less than 20 minutes would not help losing weight in most cases? I mean, I'm 6 feet tall and weigh about 175 lbs. Ideally, I wish to shed another 10 lbs in a near future. I'm just trying figure out a good approach without hurting my body by overexercising in my age (46).

Thanks in advance for your insights and of course, I welcome others' comments and suggestions too.


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

jcgoobee said:


> Hi Eeun, thanks for your insights and it's very helpful. I have some relevant questions though if you don't mind.
> 
> When I first started running routinely (about twice to three times a week) about 2 months ago, I could only do 1.26 miles a day (please don't laugh). I could hardly catch my breath and since I didn't have a HR monitor, I would have no idea of what my PTE was until I got my Ambit on 5/6. Again, it was way a bit over 3 PTE then it dropped slowly till mid 2s last week, so I started pushing myself to run farther to 1.76 miles a day, then now, 2 miles a day (yes, daily). So, if I continue this pace, my PTE will drop over time and I should push myself run farther or faster to achieve a higher PTE? My average HR is 144 and my last peak HR was 155. I don't have heart disease whatsoever, but psychologically, I felt really exhausted after that 2 miles run. Here's the link to my last run:
> 
> ...


It's a very complex process this weight-loss business and fat burn and you'll find as many contradictory views as you will runners, even amongst the experts! All I can tell you is based on my own experience and from working since March 2011 with a very good advanced personal trainer who helped me lose 66 lbs despite a 4 month lay-off due to illness and a couple of injuries. Unfortunately he's now gone touring the world so I'm on my own as of mid May :-| During the same time and using the same PT, my wife also lost over 84 lbs.

I think to burn fat running you really need to be doing 20/30 minutes as a minimum. Working harder for less time, say high intensity intervals or fartlek intervals, is better than just running for longer at a slow pace for burning fat though bear in mind you need to mix high intensity runs with lower intensity runs and recover periods so you don't overtrain or get injured. It's also good to mix cardio work with resistance work (weights) as this boosts fat/calorie burn well after the session has finished according to my PT. I also have used compound resistance work and larger weights - things like squats and dead lifts. These use a lot of muscle fibres all over the body and therefore use more energy, again good for fat burn.

PTE I believe is a combination of time and effort so the harder you work and the longer the period, the higher the PTE. There's a great explanation from Suunto here Suunto Training parametres - YouTube

Your peak HR at 155 seems quite low unless you just suggest this is the highest level you've recorded rather than your real MHR. At 46 you'd expect it to be around 176/178 (see here for ways to estimate your Maximum Heart Rate). As you can see there are various ways to do this or you could actually work out yours properly - see here How to find your maximum heart rate - General - Runner's World). A google search will reveal more advice on the subject.

Don't forget, PTE is only a measure of your effort against your fitness (in broad terms) and not an end goal in it's own right and the fitter you get the lower the PTE for any given activity and the same intensity. I use it alongside RPE (rate of Perceived Exertion) and my HR for various cardio exercises. RPE and HR are in real-time of course whereas I tend to look at PTE only once I complete the training session and not during it. Hope some of this helps, however as I said, I am no expert and this is based on my experiences with my PT.


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## Clevor (Sep 20, 2010)

jcgoobee said:


> Hi Clevor, not sure if your actual age is what your profile says but if it's true, I admire your will to continue exercising, especially that 3.6 mile jog. I'm much younger than 58 but at this time, I can only do 2 miles run each day. You've definitely beaten me in the dust. You mentioned that your PTE is always above 5? I thought there are only 5 levels of PTE and 5 is already the maximum?


Yeah, whatever that PTE is. I've only used the Ambit twice so far. Before I got the Ambit, I didn't know exactly how far I was jogging. I knew it must be 3 miles (I circle a large park). Didn't know how fast I was running a mile either. Besides my HR, now I got an estimate of my VO2 MAX too!

I really need to thank the Ambit! Because now I realize I need to back off. Keeping my HR between 160-170 should provide me with about the same exercise benefit in that given amount of time. At least I won't hate jogging so much. But I may have to take up fast walking.

Max heartrate is supposed to drop with age, but not in my case. I had it measured at 200 bpm at age 43, and since I hit 194 on the last run, I guess it's still up there at age 59. The problem is it's not easy for me to drop it. I pretty much have to walk to drop it below 170 after I've been jogging for awhile. Probably because I don't run often. It's similar to recovery rate: if you are fit, your heart rate drops quickly from your max to resting, so you can recover faster for hard efforts.

As for burning fat (tell me about it), I yo-yo and may annually need to shed 15 pounds. I've heard that short intensity stuff won't do it. More like riding a road bike for 3+ hrs (which is what I do the weekend I don't run). Doesn't have to be high intensity. The pros are razor thin as they do daily 4-6 hr training rides. On their races, they may burn 7,000 calories a day. The most I've burned is 3,500 on a 3-hr ride with a lot of steep double digit grades. When I jog, for that 30-40 minutes of torture, the Ambit says I only burned 500 calories! That's way less than a Big Mac.

It's a no brainer: running is a great way to lose weight. The longer you can keep it up the better, if you can find a way to enjoy it (it's boring for me). And it's cheap! All you need are running shoes, not a $12,000 fancy carbon fiber road bike. If you want to be a marathoner, they say to start slow: 3 runs a week and walk if you need to. There are training plans out there, and in a couple of months, you work your way up so you can run 26 miles.


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## Gwynne06 (Oct 21, 2015)

Anyone still monitoring this thread? I had a couple of questions. Thanks!


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## martowl (Dec 31, 2010)

Gwynne06 said:


> Anyone still monitoring this thread? I had a couple of questions. Thanks!


Well...now that you popped this to the top, yes. I finally had my VO2 Max tested and found that the Ambit was quite low. I get mid 40s from the Ambit and my VO2 from a lactate threshold test was 58. So, is is not necessary accurate but I think it is certainly representative meaning that the value will be scaled appropriately for your effort. It is just a number anyway.


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## Teriemer (May 19, 2015)

martowl said:


> Well...now that you popped this to the top, yes. I finally had my VO2 Max tested and found that the Ambit was quite low. I get mid 40s from the Ambit and my VO2 from a lactate threshold test was 58. So, is is not necessary accurate but I think it is certainly representative meaning that the value will be scaled appropriately for your effort. It is just a number anyway.


What's your Running Performance? As I recall, this is a way of expressing your VO2max. Mine is very accurate!


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## martowl (Dec 31, 2010)

Teriemer said:


> What's your Running Performance? As I recall, this is a way of expressing your VO2max. Mine is very accurate!


My RP is a bit low but I do not run roads often so I have only had 3 or 4 measurements, RP is disabled for trail Runs, my RP is 52.


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## Gwynne06 (Oct 21, 2015)

Thank you Martowl for responding. The last few mountain bike trips that I have recorded gives an average VO2 Max reading of 40 which seems pretty ok for my age. My heartrate average however, is usually between 170-177 bpm and the PTE is always 4.4-5, so I don't know if the readings are accurate or if I need to change my mhr/rhr parameters. They are automatically set after putting in age, weight and activity level. Any opinion? I feel great after rides and I think that's what is most important but I would like to build endurance.


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## martowl (Dec 31, 2010)

Gwynne06 said:


> Thank you Martowl for responding. The last few mountain bike trips that I have recorded gives an average VO2 Max reading of 40 which seems pretty ok for my age. My heartrate average however, is usually between 170-177 bpm and the PTE is always 4.4-5, so I don't know if the readings are accurate or if I need to change my mhr/rhr parameters. They are automatically set after putting in age, weight and activity level. Any opinion? I feel great after rides and I think that's what is most important but I would like to build endurance.


I set my activity level so a PTE of 5 occurs only a few (3) times a year. An activity greater than 4 should have a very hard perceived effort and should not be repeated more than once a week if you are fit. I would adjust the activity level so it corresponds to a moderate effort at 3 and an easy effort at 2. Here is a link to a publication by Suunto on this subject that was published when the T series of watches were in use. Suunto Training Guidebook


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

Thought I would enter the discussion again. I've had some health issues which screwed things in recent times but going back to when I was most active I had this pretty dialled in. For me the key was getting the activity level accurate, weight correct and ensuring my HR zones were correct based on accurate RHR and MHR settings. This combo gave me PTEs of 2.x for most MAF rides/runs, 3.x to 4.5 for harder sessions and 4.8 to 5 for maximal efforts of at least 20 mins and cycle-cross racing where I typically hit my maximum PTE after 20/25 minutes of a 40 minute race.

VO2max and as calculated by Suunto for me at least was way off the VO2 max I had professionally measured.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

martowl said:


> I set my activity level so a PTE of 5 occurs only a few (3) times a year. An activity greater than 4 should have a very hard perceived effort and should not be repeated more than once a week if you are fit. I would adjust the activity level so it corresponds to a moderate effort at 3 and an easy effort at 2. Here is a link to a publication by Suunto on this subject that was published when the T series of watches were in use. Suunto Training Guidebook


I didn't know that the activity level affects PTE. Also, I thought MC will adjust it automatically, since it can see how active you are. Are you including races when you say a 5.0 should only occur a few times a year? It's only happened to me once this year, and that was a race.

I used to monitor PTE during my training runs, but since it maxes out well before run is over, I now just go by average HR. At least I know that metric is not derived from other variables.

I don't pay any attention to the vo2 max or performance level (well maybe I will now just out of curiosity, since I'm now running year round for the first time).


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