# Seeking advice, entry level Breguet vs Patek vs Vacheron



## vamadeus

Hi everyone, I've been looking for a while now for a entry level dress watch around 10,000 USD (new or second hand, it doesn't matter) and I was hoping all the learned experts here could help me with some advice. I want something simple (like a Calatrava, or Breguet Classique) from one of the top brands for formal occasions and leave the seamaster for travelling or more physical activities. 

So something with a simple, midsized (i have tiny wrists) dial, and a plain leather strap would be ideal. I have it narrowed down to the PP Calatrava, Breguet Classique Ultraslim, or a basic VC Patrimony. So far I am leaning towards the Breguet as it seems that it has had a more celebrated history (judging from the advertising campaigns at least, literary references by Tolsoty, Dumas, Balzac...), and is probably slightly more low key than the other two to those who aren't particularly interested in watches. 

Would this be a sensible approach for someone who doesn't really know much about watches? Are there anything about the PP and the VC that would put it at an advantage over the Breguet? Would there be other watches that anyone can recommend?

Thanks so so much for all your time and help, greatly appreciated!

Vi


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## Watchbreath

Don't buy a watch because of history, much of that is made up by the boys in marketing, for me, Patek has a big
edge.


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## amine

Just expressing my opinion,if you wanna go "entry level Hi-End dress watch" then go Patek Philippe Calatrava, this exact watch was made for that purpose, for 10k you should be able to grab a used one in a pretty good condition with or without box & papers, for some additional $ you'd find a more recent model.


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## omega1234

I would agree that the Calatrava used is perfect for you.


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## Dancing Fire

vamadeus said:


> Would this be a sensible approach for someone who doesn't really know much about watches? Are there anything about the PP and the VC that would put it at an advantage over the Breguet? *Would there be other watches that anyone can recommend?
> 
> *Thanks so so much for all your time and help, greatly appreciated!
> 
> Vi


a pre owned Lange 1815 or a Saxonia.


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## omega1234

Dancing Fire said:


> a pre owned Lange 1815 or a Saxonia.


The suggestion of Lange is great.


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## celter

omega1234 said:


> The suggestion of Lange is great.


I agree, but I thing you´ll be hard pressed to find the 1815 for 10K.


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## GETS

The Patek will hold its value better than the VC or Breguet (although you will lose more percentage on a PP calatrava than you would on say a PP annual calendar).

If you're not bothered about re-sale value then I would go for the Breguet.


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## luxonian

Patek obviously has the history... But I would go with vacheron. Sure, all great brands, but vacheron, IMO are more rare and have a certain beautiful artistic tone associated with them. Though maybe I just have particular taste. Breguet, I wouldn't go with, but never the largest fan of them compared to others.

Have you thought about IWC at all?


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## GETS

luxonian said:


> Patek obviously has the history... But I would go with vacheron. Sure, all great brands, but vacheron, IMO are more rare and have a certain beautiful artistic tone associated with them. Though maybe I just have particular taste. Breguet, I wouldn't go with, but never the largest fan of them compared to others.
> 
> Have you thought about IWC at all?


They all have the history. If anything you could make an argument that Breguet has the richest history?

As for IWC - they are at least 2 tiers below all three watchmakers that are being discussed here (and I own a IWC and love it!).


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## mleok

GETS said:


> They all have the history. If anything you could make an argument that Breguet has the richest history?


Why would you make that argument? When I think Breguet, a few things immediately come to mind, the tourbillon, Breguet hands, and the Breguet overcoil and terminal curve on hairsprings. I would say that if you're looking for a tourbillon, then there is a certain cachet to owning one from Breguet. But in terms of dress watches, I agree with those who expressed the view that the Patek Calatrava, particularly the ones with the hobnail bezel, are the most iconic high-end dress watches.

Given that you have small wrists, you can get an exceptional deal on a 33mm Calatrava in the preowned market, and that would be the option I would pick in your situation. For me, I quite like the Vacheron Patrimony Grand Taille Manual, since it is available in a more modern size of 40mm, and has an understated elegance to the design.


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## Chris-John

Personally if I dropping that much money on a dress watch, it would have to be Lange. But you should get whichever one you like the look of. Don't worry about history.


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## SIDDMOHAN

Hi Vamadeus - as someone who enjoys the Hobmail PP Calatrava (with small seconds) once in a while I totally agree that it's the dress watch to buy. If you were to wear one dress watch let that be a PP. The finish is extremely fine and just having it on your wrist makes you feel special 

I have to admit I am not a big fan of Breguets and there are some super ultraslims in the market I would look at.


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## GETS

mleok said:


> Why would you make that argument?


Because I took the comment made to be a generic, as opposed to specific, choice of watch mentioned by the OP. In fact I have read it again and still take it that way.


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## Watchbreath

Like Piaget.


SIDDMOHAN said:


> Hi Vamadeus - as someone who enjoys the Hobmail PP Calatrava (with small seconds) once in a while I totally agree that it's the dress watch to buy. If you were to wear one dress watch let that be a PP. The finish is extremely fine and just having it on your wrist makes you feel special
> 
> I have to admit I am not a big fan of Breguets and there are some super ultraslims in the market I would look at.


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## mleok

GETS said:


> Because I took the comment made to be a generic, as opposed to specific, choice of watch mentioned by the OP. In fact I have read it again and still take it that way.


Yes, I understand that you meant that Breguet as a brand has the richest history, but I was asking if you meant in terms of the longest history, or the greatest history of horological innovation. On the basis of age, it would be Vacheron, Breguet, Patek, but in terms of horological innovation, it might be more difficult to order them, since they have all made important contributions.


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## vamadeus

Hi everyone, thanks so much for the responses, I am now somewhat inching towards the Calatrava, which i take is a superior watch. one thing though is that I am leaning towards a more low key watch, after having spoken to some friends who aren't interested in watches, it appears that patek and vacheron are all might bring in too much attention both with acquaintances and clients...would I be better off with a Breguet or an Lange, even though it might not be as intricate as the Calatrava?

Thanks again for all your help and time,

Vi


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## Mike Rivera

I would go PP or Lange. Leaning towards the Lange ...


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## Horologic

I'd go Lange.

But a vintage VC would be awesome. Flashy though. More of a weekend dress watch. Than office dress watch.


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## JP Chestnut

GETS said:


> They all have the history. If anything you could make an argument that Breguet has the richest history?
> 
> As for IWC - they are at least 2 tiers below all three watchmakers that are being discussed here (and I own a IWC and love it!).


Not only that, IWC has given up on the "not stupidly large" watch segment, which the OP (and many others) seems to inhabit. Sorry to say, but a 45mm dress watch is... unappealing to me.


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## bigdubs

The Patek 5127G is understated elegance defined.










If you're concerned that the Patek might be too much a "known" brand (and rightfully so), bringing unwanted attention, I second the Lange motion.

Here's the Saxonia (ref. 380.026)


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## asadtiger

buy what you like...if you like Breguet and are only being swayed for something else becuasde of perceptions and other's opinions, then that is not fair with you...Breguet is a well respected brand and I would sure buy one if I had the chance...having said that, I would suggest you also look at GO for all their amazing variety, uncommon brand name and great class...happy hunting


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## Tick Talk

This thread has developed an interesting tone...history vs marketing hype, intuition vs intellectual purchase. IMHO everyone seeks some self-gratification from luxury purchases, just a matter of how much they have articulated this need to themselves which defines how specific they express their desires. Many responses to these "what should I buy" questions provide absolutes; "don't get this" or "you should get that", but I'd rather hear more on the thinking of the OP for asking the question.


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## jb68902

Patek Philippe.

It's the ultimate watch, no matter what cynics say. That's not to say that Lange doesn't make equal watches; the fact is that a Patek is everybody's grail. 

In terms of unwanted attention, I have a Patek 5146 and nobody has noticed. Their watches are thin and discreet. You really need to see the dial closely to read the brand. And anyone who would give unwanted attention doesn't know the difference between a Lange and Patek and almost certainly doesn't know how much they're worth. A Rolex easily creates more attention. 

In terms of the brand and the watch itself, I think Patek, Lange, and for the most part VC are comprable. I don't think Breguet, however, holds qutie the pedigree.

I say get the Patek now and be happy you have a Patek and then continue your watch collecting with a VC or Lange. Plus, out of all of these brands Patek is the only independent company and its watches hold their value better.


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## WindsorNicole

It's true. Patek is the undisputed king, regardless of personal taste. Only collectors notice watches. I have several clients who buy Patek from me because their Rolexes get stolen when they travel. And while we will admire your Lange, Breguet or Vacheron, those are really only brands you should consider buying once you appreciate their significance. Not because we do. The Calatrava is mesmerizing and you will be quite happy with it. Your wish list is excellent!


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## Tick Talk

WindsorNicole said:


> And while we will admire your Lange, Breguet or Vacheron, those are really only brands you should consider buying once you appreciate their significance.


 Amen! When name recognition is required to impress then Patek and Rolex come to mind for most. Vacheron Constantin and Breguet are for the thoughtful connoisseur.


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## PaulBrash

New to the forum, just started collecting watches at the grand old age go 45, it is addictive, I had exactly the same conundrum, went for the vc palimony ultrathin manual wind with caliber 1003, unfortunately whilst this is beautiful it has not satisfied my watch lust and now I want the calatrava 6000r ....... Something different.. Also Want the piaget altiplano



Tick Talk said:


> Amen! When name recognition is required to impress then Patek and Rolex come to mind for most. Vacheron Constantin and Breguet are for the thoughtful connoisseur.


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## MZhammer

vamadeus said:


> Hi everyone, thanks so much for the responses, I am now somewhat inching towards the Calatrava, which i take is a superior watch. one thing though is that I am leaning towards a more low key watch, after having spoken to some friends who aren't interested in watches, it appears that patek and vacheron are all might bring in too much attention both with acquaintances and clients...would I be better off with a Breguet or an Lange, even though it might not be as intricate as the Calatrava?
> 
> Thanks again for all your help and time,
> 
> Vi


Remember that when you're talking about these brands at the similar price points there isn't going to be a ton of noticible difference. While there is a preference for Patek and Lange (commonly considered the interchangeable No. 1/2 in the world) you will have a stunning timepiece in the Breguet, AP and VC.

My personal preference leans towards the Breguet for a classic dress watch but as everyone else says the single most iconic dress watch is the calatrava.


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## Bidle

Dancing Fire said:


> a pre owned Lange 1815 or a Saxonia.


Thought exactly the same thing!! Do have to say that it might be a bit too big. Just because he writes he has tiny wrists.


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## NWP627

vamadeus said:


> I've been looking for a while now for a entry level dress watch around 10,000 USD (new or second hand, it doesn't matter)...


I'm not sure that the OP will be able buy a Calatrava that's in good shape within his budget.


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## DreambreaX

vacheron and breguet has better model and history.


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## heuerolexomega

Calatrava Hobnail bezel: Beautiful Iconic dress watch and it will hold it's value better, small size but perfect for the OP
VC patrimony or Lange Saxonia: beautiful dress watches, modern size (40 mm), Awesome clean dials
Breguet: Classic dress watch beautiful guiloche dial (art deco)

The Calatrava with the hobnail bezel and the Breguet with the guiloche dial are very unique and distinctive dress watches.
The VC and Lange are more modern and under the radar.
But If I could get over the small size of the Calatrava that would be my choice.


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## amine

15 months old thread, i am sure the P has already made up his mind and purchase.


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## heuerolexomega

we hope so :-d


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## tony20009

vamadeus said:


> Hi everyone, I've been looking for a while now for a entry level dress watch around 10,000 USD (new or second hand, it doesn't matter) and I was hoping all the learned experts here could help me with some advice. _*I want something simple (like a Calatrava, or Breguet Classique) from one of the top brands for formal occasions*_ and leave the seamaster for travelling or more physical activities.
> 
> So something with a *simple, midsized (i have tiny wrists) dial*, and a *plain leather strap* would be ideal. I have it narrowed down to the PP Calatrava, Breguet Classique Ultraslim, or a basic VC Patrimony. So far I am leaning towards the Breguet as it seems that it has had a more celebrated history (judging from the advertising campaigns at least, literary references by Tolsoty, Dumas, Balzac...), and is probably slightly more low key than the other two to those who aren't particularly interested in watches.
> 
> Would this be a sensible approach for someone who doesn't really know much about watches? Are there anything about the PP and the VC that would put it at an advantage over the Breguet? Would there be other watches that anyone can recommend?
> 
> Thanks so so much for all your time and help, greatly appreciated!
> 
> Vi


I'll start by saying that one needed know much about watches if one is considering only the three you noted. Not one is a bad choice, and choosing any of the three is really just a matter of style and personal taste. Some folks might care about pedigree, but none of the three is lacking in that area either. As someone who knows little about watches, you probably could care less about pedigree at this point in your collecting process given the three you are considering.

FWIW, I'd suggest the Calatrava 5120 for formal. It's the one I choose. The only thing I can offer about it is that it is so very damn elegant and refined looking (mine has a lizard strap) that it's hard to wear with anything but black or white tie ensembles. Even with my most elegant dark blue double breasted suit and French cuffs, the watch is still a touch too dressy. I recently bought an Altiplano and it looks amazing with a tux also, but I can wear it with a suit too.

I have no reservation about either of the other two you suggested, but I'd pick the Breguet before I picked the VC. I just think the Breguet has the elegance factor that is on par with the PP. As for VC, I think most of their Patrimony collection (barring the diamond studded ones) have a very "daytime" look. Although this one (87172/000G-9601) fits most of what I think appropriate for formal wear, save for having that small second hand. I just feel that the most elegant watch face is one that has nothing but two hand and either no numerals or Roman numerals. But as I said above, that's possibly just personal taste.

As for other watches that might fit the bill, the fact is there are plenty of them. But, as goes buying at the entry level of the big brands, and seeking a watch dedicated to formal wear, the PP 1520 cannot be beat. I choose mine for exactly the same reason, buying the manual wind variant because I knew I'd only every wear it for an evening and then back to the safe it'd go, so automatic just wasn't needed.

FWIW, my general approach to buying high-end watches is what I call "bottom feeding." I buy the entry level, or maybe one or two steps up, depending on price and whether the entry level is consistent with what the brand is know for. With Breguet, PP, VC, AP, ALS, JLC, and others, I have no compunction about buying at the lowest price points. In contrast, I won't do that with Rolex or Omega. I do that for several reasons, not the least of which is I just don't have a use for any of the complications that make the price go up and I don't have a need for gold cases and bracelets, but I will buy gold if it's a choice between gold or platinum and SS isn't offered. I buy mostly for a look, certainly that far more than for anything else.

All the best.


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## tony20009

amine said:


> 15 months old thread, i am sure the P has already made up his mind and purchase.


Crap...I need to pay attention to the dates more....oh, well.


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## gagnello

Ill throw something else out there. A new jlc ultrathin moon. 

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk 4


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## shnjb

seems like the $10K budget would not have been sufficient most people's suggestions here.

but oh well. this is the high-end subforum for a reason


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## illition

VC is a more special


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## bigclive2011

Do you think he is still looking after 7 years??


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## HarrisLam

vamadeus said:


> Hi everyone, I've been looking for a while now for a entry level dress watch around 10,000 USD (new or second hand, it doesn't matter) and I was hoping all the learned experts here could help me with some advice. I want something simple (like a Calatrava, or Breguet Classique) from one of the top brands for formal occasions and leave the seamaster for travelling or more physical activities.
> 
> So something with a simple, midsized (i have tiny wrists) dial, and a plain leather strap would be ideal. I have it narrowed down to the PP Calatrava, Breguet Classique Ultraslim, or a basic VC Patrimony. So far I am leaning towards the Breguet as it seems that it has had a more celebrated history (judging from the advertising campaigns at least, literary references by Tolsoty, Dumas, Balzac...), and is probably slightly more low key than the other two to those who aren't particularly interested in watches.
> 
> Would this be a sensible approach for someone who doesn't really know much about watches? Are there anything about the PP and the VC that would put it at an advantage over the Breguet? Would there be other watches that anyone can recommend?
> 
> Thanks so so much for all your time and help, greatly appreciated!
> 
> Vi


I was going to suggest some favorites of my own but I guess you've already got your options down. Bummer.

I agree with your choice. PP has the biggest name. VC, while looking real nice, is always treated as the odd one in the trinity. Breguet isn't even in the trinity but it does have a much richer history and glorious achievements than both of those other brands combined. With the unique breguet hands, it stands out from a crowd of luxury dress watches. Outsiders might not like the way it looks, but the breguet vibe sure stands out.

PS : facepalm moment. I just realized this post was from 2012. What the heck...


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## GrouchoM

HarrisLam said:


> I was going to suggest some favorites of my own but I guess you've already got your options down. Bummer.
> 
> I agree with your choice. PP has the biggest name. VC, while looking real nice, is always treated as the odd one in the trinity. Breguet isn't even in the trinity but it does have a much richer history and glorious achievements than both of those other brands combined. With the unique breguet hands, it stands out from a crowd of luxury dress watches. Outsiders might not like the way it looks, but the breguet vibe sure stands out.
> 
> PS : facepalm moment. I just realized this post was from 2012. What the heck...


Well, it's been so long that the OP may have bought and sold his choice and be looking again.


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## HarrisLam

GrouchoM said:


> Well, it's been so long that the OP may have bought and sold his choice and be looking again.


Possible, but then again he wouldn't be considering very similar watches now would he?

Anyway, I don't think necro-ing threads is a wise thing to do, especially a thread about immediate opinion about a specific situation. All information is outdated and invalid.


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