# Bell & Ross movement grade



## tobitas

About a week ago I posted a question in the official B&R forum on their website: What is the movement grade in B&R WW1 watches? Forum mods replied pretty fast, promising they would investigate, but never got back to me. Yesterday, I tried on a couple of B&R watches at an AD and asked the shop assistant the exact same question. Although very fond of B&R, he also had no idea. He called up at least two more people from B&R in France and neither could answer this question. All I got back is that the movements "run within COSC specifications".

See, the movements they use in the WW1 models are based on the ETA2892-A2. They are produced in either _elaboré _or _top _grade. If they wanted, they could certify their movements to be within COSC specifications. Then they could print _chronometer_ on the dial.

I find it disturbing that a watch brand producing luxury, automatic time pieces seems to have no idea about the movements they use. If they use _elaborés_, why not simply say it when someone asks?


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## Kilovolt

This same question was asked here a few months ago: this is what came out


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## tobitas

Thank you Kilovolt for pointing me towards this thread. Unfortunately, it does not answer my question for the WW1 models I was looking at. Also, I still wonder why it is so hard to find a conclusive answer to this question.


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## heb

Hello,
Yours is a good question, but for all but a handful here and ALL not here, an irrelavant one. Movement grade is very far down the list of important features, if considerate at all by a great majority of watch owners. Water resistancy, size, night time luminescense, and advertising content are the Big Four. Don't believe it, check out most of the posts on any forum here.

As long as the watch keeps reasonable accuracy, say 1 to 2 minutes a week is good enough for most.

Unless the watch is stated as "Chronometer", you can safely assume "elaborate" at best; there are a few exceptions.

heb


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## heb

Hello,
Yours is a good question, but for all but a handful here and ALL not here, an irrelavant one. Movement grade is very far down the list of important features, if considered at all by a great majority of watch owners. Water resistancy, size, night time luminescense, and advertising content are the Big Four. Don't believe it, check out most of the posts on any forum here.

As long as the watch keeps reasonable accuracy, say 1 to 2 minutes a week is good enough for most.

Unless the watch is stated as "Chronometer", you can safely assume "elaborate" at best; there are a few exceptions.

heb


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## tobitas

Thanks heb,
I understand that people put different emphasis on different features of a watch. I don't think I would care so much about movement grade in a cheaper watch, but in a considerably expensive watch with ETA movement, I kind of expect to find top grade movements. Those do not necessarily differ in accuracy, but in the material of the balance wheel, in their shock protection mechanism and in the number of positions the movement was regulated.
In the end, it is up to B & R to put in their watches whatever movement they want. However, as a potential customer, I would however like to get a competent answer to a not too unusual question.


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## gtuck

Accuracy is one of my major criteria. When my Hamilton Khaki--about $500 retail--is within 2 seconds a day, sometimes with a week!--I expect good time keeping from more expensive watches. My B&R Vintage Original 126 is within about 3-4 seconds a day as is my Ball Power Reserve if it is in the middle of the reserve around 20 hrs. If it is fully wound at 42 hours, it gains 12 seconds a day. I am assuming that higher grade movements will handle isochronism better. I have a German Tourby hand wound watch on order with a Top movement just for this reason. I probably need to find a 12 step program for my accuracy obsessive disorder.  And I do have a Citizen Perpetual A-T which syncs with WWV every morning when AOD takes over totally.


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## simoncudd

tobitas said:


> About a week ago I posted a question in the official B&R forum on their website: What is the movement grade in B&R WW1 watches? Forum mods replied pretty fast, promising they would investigate, but never got back to me. Yesterday, I tried on a couple of B&R watches at an AD and asked the shop assistant the exact same question. Although very fond of B&R, he also had no idea. He called up at least two more people from B&R in France and neither could answer this question. All I got back is that the movements "run within COSC specifications".
> 
> See, the movements they use in the WW1 models are based on the ETA2892-A2. They are produced in either _elaboré _or _top _grade. If they wanted, they could certify their movements to be within COSC specifications. Then they could print _chronometer_ on the dial.
> 
> I find it disturbing that a watch brand producing luxury, automatic time pieces seems to have no idea about the movements they use. If they use _elaborés_, why not simply say it when someone asks?


....I was awaiting an exact answer, instead of not being able to answer correctly.
Patience please, as I have to get the correct answer, and this may take a little time !


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## tobitas

simoncudd said:


> ....I was awaiting an exact answer, instead of not being able to answer correctly.
> Patience please, as I have to get the correct answer, and this may take a little time !


Thanks, Simon and sorry for being impatient.
I appreciate your efforts. 
I would be really cool to get a photo of the open watch and movement as well.


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## jackafrica

I own a 123, new style and i too would like to know the answer and also see an image of the movement. 

In this thread the owners who are conscious of accuracy have risen to the surface. 

I see we still don't have a definitive answer from simoncudd. Is 4 weeks a little time or a long time? ;-)

cheers,
richard

PS I also owned an original 123 when released. as time goes by and my eyesight diminishes, the larger dial is perfect!


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## bjjkk

Not sure if this helps, but I have a 126 vintage. The movement I was told was a top grade. It is fully decorated with blued screws


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## Michael Schott

While I like having the chronometer grade movement in all of my ETA equipped watches, my BR03-92 is perhaps the most accurate watch I've ever owned. It seems to be running less than +1 sec/day which is pretty amazing.


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## gtuck

My 126 Vintage Original was right on for much of last year--lost 2s during the day and gained them at night when placed face up. Now it is running about -4s/day. Still within COSC specs so I can't complain really. Prefer +4s rather than -4s but being retired, it's more of a fetish than a necessity...
I have two watches, one with a Top grade movement and the other COSC which are +1 to +2s/day. I believe that a standard or elabore grade is certainly capable of COSC specs if properly regulated but have to believe better components in a higher grade have to make a difference in isochronism if nothing else.


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## Tourbillion87

Hello,

Interesting conversation here so I had to stop by. I just pre ordered my first B&R,123 Sport Heritage 2013/14 model. Never owned a B&R before but always had a thing for them. Just needed to find the perfect one. 

From what I learned over the years of owning different watches with different grade movements assembled by different manufacturers is that it really does not matter what grade they use that determines longevity, quality, or accuracy. It's the attention to detail and the extent of quality control that makes all the difference. I find certain brands to be much better at this than others. Price is not always the determining factor of quality.


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## wdrazek

Three months later and there is not answer to this simple question. 

I have to say, B&R have some amazing designs that I truly want to own. But with such lackadaisical concern on a topic like this, I wonder what my $3-5K would be buying. It is a shame. If I had confidence in a 03-92 reliably running accurately I could spring for one easily. 

But with little information and no proof that anything other than generic ETA movements are used, and without models having COSC certification, I have to question whether anything other than styling is what B&R have to offer.


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## eugeniayvalentina

Tobitas,

I just registered to the site because I have an answer for you, if you read your owner manual it shoud say in how many positions your watch was calibrated, in my case a a Vintage 126 with an ETA 2894 was calibrate in 4 positions, to be COSC certified it should comply with a calibration for15 days, in 5 positions at 3 different temperatures. In conclusion my B&R is not COSC. Maybe yours has a different procedure. 

Saludos


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## heb

Hello, The current edition of WatchTime (Dec '14) reviewed the B&R 03-92 "Golden Heritage". It's movement is a Sellita SW300 (ETA 2892 clone) in "Special" grade. That's the lowest of the company's three quality grades. They gave the "Rate Results" a 7 out of 10. I wouldn't expect their other watches to contain TOP grades; nothing wrong with that. heb


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## watchhound

heb said:


> Hello, The current edition of WatchTime (Dec '14) reviewed the B&R 03-92 "Golden Heritage". It's movement is a Sellita SW300 (ETA 2892 clone) in "Special" grade. That's the lowest of the company's three quality grades. They gave the "Rate Results" a 7 out of 10. I wouldn't expect their other watches to contain TOP grades; nothing wrong with that. heb


There's something wrong with it to me. Sad that a company charges thousands for a watch and puts such an inexpensive grade movement in it.


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## KILOFINAL

A Sellita movement?? wow! But, I would guess that with The Swatch Group excluding companies not under their umbrella, using a clone movement was the answer. I wouldn't want a Sellita movement in a watch at this price point.



heb said:


> Hello, The current edition of WatchTime (Dec '14) reviewed the B&R 03-92 "Golden Heritage". It's movement is a Sellita SW300 (ETA 2892 clone) in "Special" grade. That's the lowest of the company's three quality grades. They gave the "Rate Results" a 7 out of 10. I wouldn't expect their other watches to contain TOP grades; nothing wrong with that. heb


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## walrusmonger

I had an Oris Big Crown Timer with an SW220 movement and sold that when I got my B&R Sport Heritage 123. 

The SW220 in the Oris had about the same level of decoration as the B&R's ETA 2892, difference is that it only gained +0.7 per day. The B&R gains about +3 per day. I had a B&R 03-93 green ceramic that kept time to about +0.5 per day. 

Every watch will vary even with the same movement. If you are looking for a highly decorated, COSC rated movement, B&R is obviously not the brand you should be buying. There are other manufacturers out there with very similar fonts used for the numerals, and similar layouts, maybe check one of them out instead?

Why should you pay thousands for a B&R? Their case work, fit and finish, packaging, style, and legibility is all fantastic. If you don't like the MSRP prices, buy second hand since they are poor in holding value.


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## sean.scott

walrusmonger said:


> I had an Oris Big Crown Timer with an SW220 movement and sold that when I got my B&R Sport Heritage 123.
> 
> The SW220 in the Oris had about the same level of decoration as the B&R's ETA 2892, difference is that it only gained +0.7 per day. The B&R gains about +3 per day. I had a B&R 03-93 green ceramic that kept time to about +0.5 per day.
> 
> Every watch will vary even with the same movement. If you are looking for a highly decorated, COSC rated movement, B&R is obviously not the brand you should be buying. There are other manufacturers out there with very similar fonts used for the numerals, and similar layouts, maybe check one of them out instead?
> 
> Why should you pay thousands for a B&R? Their case work, fit and finish, packaging, style, and legibility is all fantastic. If you don't like the MSRP prices, buy second hand since they are poor in holding value.


Well said.


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## dkbs

Unfortunately, Bell&Ross uses elaborate for all their models. Brands targeting lower end market usually use elaborate grade movements. For example, most Tag Heuer,

Bell&Ross is not part of ETA group, it will be hard for them to get any chronometer grade ETA movement. So "print chronometer" on dial is luxury for them at this time.

Chronometer is not about "COSC specifications". It is about "COSC specifications" independently accredited by third party accreditation body and able to trace back to international or national standard organization.



tobitas said:


> About a week ago I posted a question in the official B&R forum on their website: What is the movement grade in B&R WW1 watches? Forum mods replied pretty fast, promising they would investigate, but never got back to me. Yesterday, I tried on a couple of B&R watches at an AD and asked the shop assistant the exact same question. Although very fond of B&R, he also had no idea. He called up at least two more people from B&R in France and neither could answer this question. All I got back is that the movements "run within COSC specifications".
> 
> See, the movements they use in the WW1 models are based on the ETA2892-A2. They are produced in either _elaboré _or _top _grade. If they wanted, they could certify their movements to be within COSC specifications. Then they could print _chronometer_ on the dial.
> 
> I find it disturbing that a watch brand producing luxury, automatic time pieces seems to have no idea about the movements they use. If they use _elaborés_, why not simply say it when someone asks?


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## marklv1

I have a Bell & Ross WW1-97 Reserve de Marche and it's doing 5.5 seconds fast every 24 hours, so I assume it's elabore. I got the watch at 1/3 off the retail price and it was still very expensive for a watch of this grade, but despite that I bought it because I like the watch. I'm not too unhappy, it's a beautiful watch and very well built, but at the price it should have been COSC certified in my opinion. Accuracy is not fantastic but very acceptable.


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## notional

marklv1 said:


> I have a Bell & Ross WW1-97 Reserve de Marche and it's doing 5.5 seconds fast every 24 hours, so I assume it's elabore. I got the watch at 1/3 off the retail price and it was still very expensive for a watch of this grade, but despite that I bought it because I like the watch. I'm not too unhappy, it's a beautiful watch and very well built, but at the price it should have been COSC certified in my opinion. Accuracy is not fantastic but very acceptable.


Could be a magnetic issue. I had that happen with my BR01-93. Once it was degaussed, it was fine!


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## Michael Day

tobitas said:


> About a week ago I posted a question in the official B&R forum on their website: What is the movement grade in B&R WW1 watches? Forum mods replied pretty fast, promising they would investigate, but never got back to me. Yesterday, I tried on a couple of B&R watches at an AD and asked the shop assistant the exact same question. Although very fond of B&R, he also had no idea. He called up at least two more people from B&R in France and neither could answer this question. All I got back is that the movements "run within COSC specifications".
> 
> See, the movements they use in the WW1 models are based on the ETA2892-A2. They are produced in either _elaboré _or _top _grade. If they wanted, they could certify their movements to be within COSC specifications. Then they could print _chronometer_ on the dial.
> 
> I find it disturbing that a watch brand producing luxury, automatic time pieces seems to have no idea about the movements they use. If they use _elaborés_, why not simply say it when someone asks?


They'd have a very good idea of the grades. Just don't want to have everyone else know. Why? It's not the top grade and it's not COSC.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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