# Holy Grail of Fountain Pens?



## Kittysafe

Holy Grail of Fountain Pens?

I just saw this, no price listed, must be insane, guessing $10-$15,000 easy... 
Exceptional Hawk fountain pen - Sterling silver, blue and gray lacquer, palmeira citrine - Fine Writing Instruments for men and for women - Cartier

EXCEPTIONAL HAWK FOUNTAIN PEN
Sterling silver, blue and gray lacquer, palmeira citrine
REF: ST190063

Pens of extreme refinement created in the finest materials: pink, yellow or white gold, sterling silver, and set with precious stones.
Limited edition of 100 individually numbered pens. Exceptional Hawk fountain pen in sterling silver with palladium finish, blue and gray lacquer, Palmeira citrine eyes, rhodiumized 18K solid gold nib. Stand in black rock crystal and sterling silver with palladium finish.

Dimensions:
pen: length 164 mm x width 19 mm.
Stand: length 91.1 mm x width 76.8 mm.


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## collectingfool

It is gorgeous. They did a parrot too that's pretty nice. That hawk would look great on my desk but there are about 80,000 other things I'd rather spend that kind of money on.


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## Kittysafe

Ya, I'm saving for my first house in California.


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## D N Ravenna

That does pose a tough question. What would my holy grail of fountain pens be? For a watch, I would go for a Zenith Cal. 135. But for a fountain pen?

I already have at least a couple each of Sheaffer, Parker, Pilot, and Platinum that I consider to be superb writers. Perhaps a Nakaya Naka-ai Cigar? Still, if the nib sucked, it would not be a holy grail.

Pretty tough question for me to answer!

Dan


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## Kittysafe

My two ST Dupont Defi fountain pens are pretty amazing pens, I love how they write and they look beautiful, hand made, total class.


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## Therightadvisor

Kittysafe said:


> Holy Grail of Fountain Pens?


Looks very cool, but I certainly wouldn't call it a "Holy Grail of Fountain Pens."

To this guy, that pen would probably make a nice paperweight, lol.


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## Kittysafe

Therightadvisor said:


> Looks very cool, but I certainly wouldn't call it a "Holy Grail of Fountain Pens."
> 
> To this guy, that pen would probably make a nice paperweight, lol.


I doubt it, that picture looks like someone selling not owning... that's why you see 4 of each pen, those aren't his own collection, he's a salesman.


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## Therightadvisor

Kittysafe said:


> I doubt it, that picture looks like someone selling not owning... that's why you see 4 of each pen, those aren't his own collection, he's a salesman.


Incorrect. Look up member "evgeny0ukr" on Fountain Pen Network.

EDIT- You are also not seeing "4 of each pen." Some of those are the /3, /88, /888 edition, /4810 edition, and he has quite a few that are much more rare than that. For instance, he has a Montblanc Black Widow. Not only that but the first of only three made. He also has the first made of the 88 black widow.

He has several pens worth more than $100,000. I'd dare to guess that his collection is worth more than $10 million.

Here are some pictures of his collection (this part of his house by the way).


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## Kittysafe

Well, grail is subjective... clearly he's not in the majority... so he may not call it a grail, no idea what he would, but it still stands for me.


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## Therightadvisor

Kittysafe said:


> Well, grail is subjective... clearly he's not in the majority... so he may not call it a grail, no idea what he would, but it still stands for me.


I certainly agree. For some people, a $300 pen could be something they aspire to one day have.

I did not make my post in ignorance. Cartier has offered several similar pens in the past.

The "Crocodile" edition was very similar and looks to have retailed for around $50k.

Here are the problems I see:

1.) Price- Even if I could afford a $50k pen, I'd want to know that it has the chance to appreciate in value. I believe the Crocodile edition was originally offered for $50,000. I saw two places online that were selling them for $49k and $40k respectively. That's BELOW retail price. The fact that these pens are selling below retail tells me that there simply isn't a demand (100 people in this case) for this rare edition.

2.) They're marketing a paperweight- None of the pictures I saw display the nib. They are all captured with the pen in its stand. I realize that pens this expensive are not meant to be used, but it's hard for me to agree with you that it's a "Grail of a pen" without even seeing its nib or ink filling system.

With those two key points in mind, it is my opinion that Cartier is doing a terrible job of marketing these to the ultra-high net worth population. They're calling it a fountain pen, yet they don't even show the pen in its useable form. They're also asking a price that simply isn't being met with a demand.

Cartier makes some excellent products, no doubt. However, they're still very small players in the luxury pen market. Montblanc could market a cow turd, stamp "limited edition" on it, and people would buy it.

As a pen connoisseur, as an investor, and as someone who appreciates luxury items, I find little value in this pen. It looks very pretty, but at $50k, I'm buying an xx/88 limited edition Montblanc knowing that it has the potential to be worth double the price in several years.


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## Kittysafe

You make a very good point, and must concede, you are correct. It is peculiar to sell a high-end pen without actually showing the pen, therefore one cannot really accept it as a pen, but like you say, as a paperweight. 

My two favorite pens that I do own and use daily are my ST Dupont Defi fountain pens, I absolutely love using them and mention them often around here. I have never owned a Mont Blanc, or an Omas, or Montegrappa,
but I can't imagine how a pen could outdo these Defi's, how do you outdo perfection?


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## fatehbajwa

I got mine a few years back and haven't looked for others since then...so I guess it can be called my Grail.

Picture taken from the internet.....


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## Therightadvisor

Kittysafe said:


> how do you outdo perfection?


You don't, but you stamp a limited edition number on it or make the pen out of a different material and ridiculously mark the price up, lol.

But seriously. It's amazing that people fail to realize the Montblanc solitaire pens are the exact same as the "precious resin" pens just with a metal body.

For instance:
Montblanc Solitaire Platinum Classique 163 Rollerball- Priced at $17,000
Montblanc Classique 163 Rollerball- $440

Both use an $8 Montblanc rollerball refill, and both have the exact same section design. The only difference....one is made of platinum and one is made of precious resin *to be read as "plastic.*

Platinum is currently trading at about $1550/ounce.

So this pen would have to contain almost 11 ounces of platinum in order for the price to be comparatively worth it. I'll shed a bit of light on the solitaires...they usally weigh about 2 ounces including the section and refill.

So essentially, you're paying about a $13-15k premium for the "fancy" version even after factoring the spot price of the precious metal.


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## Kittysafe

Here are my ST Dupont Defi pens...


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## Seele

I hate to be a spoil sport but those products especially made to be rare, thus expensive, leave me cold.

Look at it this way: the Sultan of Brunei was - and still is - one of the richest persons in the world, it was said that his personal asset increased by approximately $1M _per minute_. He's also known to be an enthusiastic car collector, so much so that he had to build a multi-storey car park to house his collection of rare, one-of-a-kind, and absurdly costly cars.

So there were no shortage of small boutique car builders building one-offs purely for selling to him, knowing full well that he's going to sign the cheque without second thoughts. So, were these cars built to any degree of sincerity or just purely built as a mean to extract money from someone?

A "grail" pen - or watch etc - is not meant to be one from the outset, or it would just be a cynical money-making exercise.

Speaking of Onoto, I do have my grails: the first three models by Onoto, not the current zombie company but the original, the first 1905 model still has its price label on it. Perhaps I can even mention my 1930 Wm K Rockman Model 50, but a NYC-built example is still elusive.


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## fatehbajwa

I fully agree with you on all the points you made.
Just like watches, a certain pen just makes you think "THIS IS IT". Well, the Onoto I put the picture of, did that to me.
I still keep looking out for pens, but whenever I use or even just see my Onoto, a warm, nice feeling just envelops me...I hope you get what I am trying to convey.
That feeling is still not there from any of my watches BTW, so the quest there continues.





Seele said:


> I hate to be a spoil sport but those products especially made to be rare, thus expensive, leave me cold.
> 
> Look at it this way: the Sultan of Brunei was - and still is - one of the richest persons in the world, it was said that his personal asset increased by approximately $1M _per minute_. He's also known to be an enthusiastic car collector, so much so that he had to build a multi-storey car park to house his collection of rare, one-of-a-kind, and absurdly costly cars.
> 
> So there were no shortage of small boutique car builders building one-offs purely for selling to him, knowing full well that he's going to sign the cheque without second thoughts. So, were these cars built to any degree of sincerity or just purely built as a mean to extract money from someone?
> 
> A "grail" pen - or watch etc - is not meant to be one from the outset, or it would just be a cynical money-making exercise.
> 
> Speaking of Onoto, I do have my grails: the first three models by Onoto, not the current zombie company but the original, the first 1905 model still has its price label on it. Perhaps I can even mention my 1930 Wm K Rockman Model 50, but a NYC-built example is still elusive.


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## Therightadvisor

Seele said:


> I hate to be a spoil sport but those products especially made to be rare, thus expensive, leave me cold.
> 
> Look at it this way: the Sultan of Brunei was - and still is - one of the richest persons in the world, it was said that his personal asset increased by approximately $1M _per minute_. He's also known to be an enthusiastic car collector, so much so that he had to build a multi-storey car park to house his collection of rare, one-of-a-kind, and absurdly costly cars.
> 
> So there were no shortage of small boutique car builders building one-offs purely for selling to him, knowing full well that he's going to sign the cheque without second thoughts. So, were these cars built to any degree of sincerity or just purely built as a mean to extract money from someone?
> 
> A "grail" pen - or watch etc - is not meant to be one from the outset, or it would just be a cynical money-making exercise.
> 
> Speaking of Onoto, I do have my grails: the first three models by Onoto, not the current zombie company but the original, the first 1905 model still has its price label on it. Perhaps I can even mention my 1930 Wm K Rockman Model 50, but a NYC-built example is still elusive.


I agree with the majority of what you said. That was the point I was trying to make. Is this pen truly a work of art or is it an artificially rare item?

My grail pen: Solid Gold Montblanc 149 Solitaire. Fair market price- $12k-$15k

My grail watch: Rolex Cosmograph Daytona White Gold 116509- Fair market price ~$20k+
Neither is truly the best value from a mechanical standpoint, but they're pieces that personally interest me. They may be household luxury brands, but I have my own reasons for wanting them that I can easily justify.

On a side note:
$1 million per minute seems a bit hard to believe. That means his assets grew $1.44 billion a day or $526 billion a year. That's more than 7x Bill Gates' total net worth in one year.


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## Kittysafe

Therightadvisor said:


> I agree with the majority of what you said. That was the point I was trying to make. Is this pen truly a work of art or is it an artificially rare item?
> 
> My grail pen: Solid Gold Montblanc 149 Solitaire. Fair market price- $12k-$15k
> 
> My grail watch: Rolex Cosmograph Daytona White Gold 116509- Fair market price ~$20k+
> Neither is truly the best value from a mechanical standpoint, but they're pieces that personally interest me. They may be household luxury brands, but I have my own reasons for wanting them that I can easily justify.
> 
> On a side note:
> $1 million per minute seems a bit hard to believe. That means his assets grew $1.44 billion a day or $526 billion a year. That's more than 7x Bill Gates' total net worth in one year.


Agreed, and both fine choices on your part. I also call shenanigans on the $1M a minute rumor. In fact I found reference to it being more like $7,000 a minute.

http://curiousphotos.blogspot.com/2009/09/wealth-of-sultan-of-brunei-20-pics.html


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## Seele

Regardless of how much he makes per minute, the point remains the same nonetheless.

The grail object does not even have to be "a work of art"; using my example of NYC-built Wm K Rockman as example: nobody has seen a verified specimen, they were made in NYC for about two years - even though two US patents were issued to them. But it is positive that they were indeed made in some quantities, and production carried on for a while after the firm relocated to Shanghai. Only one example - probably Shanghai-built but without cap - is known and documented by a collector. And yet they were all built to be utilitarian writing instruments, without any pretense of luxury, it's just that they were products of their times, created under their specific socio-economic environments and are witnesses to them, and then the firm proceeded to become a major manufacturer in China which eventually became known as Guanleming, still active today.


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## Therightadvisor

Seele said:


> Regardless of how much he makes per minute, the point remains the same nonetheless.
> 
> The grail object does not even have to be "a work of art"; using my example of NYC-built Wm K Rockman as example: nobody has seen a verified specimen, they were made in NYC for about two years - even though two US patents were issued to them. But it is positive that they were indeed made in some quantities, and production carried on for a while after the firm relocated to Shanghai. Only one example - probably Shanghai-built but without cap - is known and documented by a collector. And yet they were all built to be utilitarian writing instruments, without any pretense of luxury, it's just that they are products of their times, created under their specific socio-economic environments, and then the firm proceeded to become a major manufacturer in China which eventually became known as Guanleming, still active today.


I've read your posts several times and I think I'm missing the point you're trying to make. It seems you have different tastes than others which is perfectly reasonable, but your reasons for buying are no more valid than others who buy solely because an item is rare and/or expensive. If you are happy with the purchase what more is there to ask for?

Your example of the Sultan is relevant, but the company is marketing a product to a specific market (in this case one person). If that target market is purchasing their product at the prices the company demands, they are succeeding as a business. It matters not what your thoughts are because you aren't the target market in that case. Do you think your opinion truly carries weight with those car companies or with the Sultan of Brunei? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as they say "Opinions are like A** holes. Everybody has one and they all stink." <---mine included.

These are major corporations whose sole intentions are to profit, and ultimately, this is an issue of supply and demand. Companies that yield a demand that exceeds the supply are able to charge more. Companies that fail to yield a demand are forced to charge less which decreases their profit margins. By maintaining a strong demand and controlling the supply (limited editions), they can charge astronomical prices.

Montblanc (now the Richemont Group) has built a reputation over the past 100+ years that allows them to charge absurd prices for their pens. Patek Philippe has built the same reputation in the watch world. Are they the best in their businesses? The answer is subjective. However, each offers products at a price that is met with a strong demand.

We've established the fact that everyone has different tastes. No one has to like everything but that's why we have literally thousands of products to choose from with just the pen industry alone.

As I've said, every company has a different business model. JinHao offers pens below $10. They're the "Walmart" of the pen world. Small profit margins, but they sell in high volume.

Montblanc and Cartier sell pens that cost well beyond $1000. They have large profit margins and sell in low quantities. 
Montblanc has earned their reputation as a luxury pen brand and has consequently created a strong demand of people who are willing to pay their asking prices.

Cartier seems to be working on building that reputation. They have earned a reputation that allows them to sell pens in the $300-1000 range. However, it seems they have a ways to go before they earn the reputation to sell pens in the $10k+ range.

You may not find value in these rare products and you are certainly not alone, but there are plenty of people out there (comparatively) willing to pay tremendous prices for these "products especially made to be rare." That demand does not come solely from quality, but from a variety of factors. You never see an advertisement of a celebrity holding a Jinghao pen in the Robb Report. You never see a Jinghao boutique in your local mall. Why? Because that's not cohesive to their business model. However, that sort of advertising and marketing is certainly cohesive to Montblanc and Cartier's business models. Those things cost millions of dollars and they serve to add value to the brand. Those reasons are partially to blame why a Montblanc pen costs at least $400 while a Jinghao pen can be had for less than $10.

Again, *I stress that your opinion is valid* in this particular discussion, but when you offer an opinion, expect another in response (as this post reflects). You don't have to like or understand either side of a brand's supply and demand, but ultimately companies like Montblanc have mastered this ultra-luxury business model.


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## D N Ravenna

As the moderator, I ask that we either move back to the original point or move to a new one. I have a preference for not closing threads, but will do so if one moves well beyond its intent.

Thanks,

Dan


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## Mike_Dowling

I have to be honest not knowing what it costs I wouldn't trade my Pelikan M800 for it straight up, probably not my TWSBI 580 either.


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## collectingfool

For the record I just heard back from Cartier. The pen costs $42,600. I was at Cartier NYC today hoping to see it in person just so I can see what the pen itself looks like. No luck. They might get one in a month but who knows. Very few and the product is marketed worldwide.


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## Kittysafe

collectingfool said:


> For the record I just heard back from Cartier. The pen costs $42,600. I was at Cartier NYC today hoping to see it in person just so I can see what the pen itself looks like. No luck. They might get one in a month but who knows. Very few and the product is marketed worldwide.


lol wow... in comparison, my two handmade, gorgeous ST Dupont Defi pens were $300 for the resin, and $400 for the carbon fiber, and I think they're absolutely flawless.


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## collectingfool

Hey, check it out. For a "little more" you can start a menagerie!

Cartier Exceptionale "Loverbirds Inseparable" Pen | eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370779732601http://www.ebay.com/itm/CROCODILES-...559?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565431ba4f

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CARTIER-PAN...146?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5650bd2b62

Check out the seller's other stuff. That's a hell of an inventory!!


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## D N Ravenna

I'll have to admit that the bird one is pretty cool. Still, I am not sure how all this fits into the holy grail aspect. Expensive yes. Desired by many? I am not too sure about that.

But thanks for posting it. I've held watches that cost more than my home (when I did a recent visit to the Zenith factory), but I have yet to see fountain pens worth more than my cars until now.

Cheers!

Dan


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## Monocrom

I remember just a decade ago when it was the Parker snake pen with that giant box that doubled as a display stand. I got to try one out. Ironically, the nib was surprising too smooth for writing.


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## oke

Kittysafe said:


> lol wow... in comparison, my two handmade, gorgeous ST Dupont Defi pens were $300 for the resin, and $400 for the carbon fiber, and I think they're absolutely flawless.


Every time you talk about your Defi pens, it makes me more convinced that one of those would be something I should try. I also like the looks of the titanium one and the grille one, so they have a few versions I think I could live with. 

Does anyone know how the Defi compares with the Midnight Black Starwalker?


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## Kittysafe

Midnight Black Starwalker, never owned a Mont Blanc yet myself, but I would be interested to compare the two.


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## oke

Kittysafe said:


> Midnight Black Starwalker, never owned a Mont Blanc yet myself, but I would be interested to compare the two.


Well, I figure you'll get the opportunity before me, so, if a comparo is worth reporting about, then let us know!

At another site, a poster was asking what pen to buy with $500 which their (or, his/her) mother gave them to spend (1st world issues...), so I went and suggested that they check out the Defi line of fps. All 'cuz it just seems like, after your favorable views of the Defi, the person would probably do pretty well when getting one as well. Maybe going to get others as fans of the Defi!


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## Therightadvisor

collectingfool said:


> For the record I just heard back from Cartier. The pen costs $42,600. I was at Cartier NYC today hoping to see it in person just so I can see what the pen itself looks like. No luck. They might get one in a month but who knows. Very few and the product is marketed worldwide.


I had a bit of a laugh when I read this because I was in their flagship NYC store over the weekend, too. I made a special trip just to see if they had one in the store. They told me the same thing when I asked.


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## eamonn345

Holy grail is the Mont Blanc 149 which is my desk pain. I also carry the 146 legrand fountain pen for meetings as it is slimmer and thus easier to write with for long periods.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## Kittysafe

How is a Mont Blanc 149 a grail? It's not out of reach of anyone who saves a little. In fact you can get one used for $250-$400, that's the price of a new ST DUpont hand made Defi, which I prefer over a Mont Blanc 149 anyway.


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## eamonn345

The history and users of that pen makes it the holy grail to me.

Check out:

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/video/o...heir-favorite-pen-whECqiV_SHWhYllt4_sKpw.html

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## Kittysafe

Honestly I couldn't care less what some celebrities favorite pen is like I dont care that so many celebs call citizen Caine the best movies easy acceptable answers are not our own, we create our own history.


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## eamonn345

Assume you have used one??

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## Kittysafe

eamonn345 said:


> Assume you have used one??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


Yes, and I prefer my st DuPont hand made in France Defi pens, have you used one ?


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## eamonn345

Absolutely. And it didn't float my boat....

I have an extensive collection of pens









...and to me my holy grail is without doubt the Diplomat 149.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## Monocrom

A 149 can be a Grail for some. But I can see how others would think it a bit odd as a Grail. Also, no offense, but a pen preferred by those around the world who dedicate their lives to something as utterly vulgar and obscene as politics, would be a minus in my book.


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## Mike_Dowling

Kittysafe said:


> How is a Mont Blanc 149 a grail? It's not out of reach of anyone who saves a little. In fact you can get one used for $250-$400, that's the price of a new ST DUpont hand made Defi, which I prefer over a Mont Blanc 149 anyway.


Honestly, can you make one post in this forum without mentioning your ST Dupont "hand made in France" Defi? We get it you like your pen... But you're crossing into full fanboy status where you completely diminish the qualities of other pens. A pen being "hand made in France" is marketing nonsense, France isn't even known for pens, think Italy and Germany for that.

It isn't really up to you to decide what someones grail pen is regardless of price. The Montblanc 149 is an $800 pen, definitely grail worthy for many.


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## Kittysafe

Fair enough, and I know I mention it often because a lot of people are looking for a good pen, and I use mine every day, and it really got me back into drawing, so why wouldn't I mention it? Though point taken. 
If I were to choose as a grail a pen from the Mont Blanc collection it would perhaps be the John Lennon Limited Edition, being as it's $1000, can be bought for $800-ish, but still, as a musician, lover of Lennon, it
fits the bill, will I ever buy one, doubtful, but it's nice to imagine. 

Someone posted the Visconti above, I bought one of those, didn't like it though and sent it back, which is funny because they said they didn't like the Defi, so it all works out in the end.


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## Monocrom

Yeah, the thing with MB is that their yearly Limited Editions are usually worth the asking prices.

Though I was a bit disappointed that during one year their L.E. was little more than a tarted up Solitaire. A friend has a rollerball Czar Nicholas. Gorgeous combination of gold and green. But just a metal Solitaire. His has a tiny circular dent in the barrel. Also, he sometimes misplaces it.


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## Outlawyer

collectingfool said:


> Hey, check it out. For a "little more" you can start a menagerie!
> 
> Cartier Exceptionale "Loverbirds Inseparable" Pen | eBay
> 
> Panther de Cartier Fountain Pen Only 500 Made | eBayCrocodiles de Cartier Fountain Pen Only 888 Made | eBay
> 
> Cartier "Panda" Limited Edition 88 Pen Sterling Silver | eBay
> 
> Check out the seller's other stuff. That's a hell of an inventory!!


So that's how the other half lives!
Gotta say I like the Onoto pens better than most of his, though.


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## oke

I figure that one's "grail" pen is pretty subjective. But have any of y'all ever developed a wishlist of features in a pen that you picked from your favorite pens and noticed that one currently-made pen does not have everything you think would make a pen the "best" one? So then you'd just want to go out and make your own?

I think that I've almost gotten to the point where, if I ("only", lol) had the time, resources, skills, raw materials, equipment, etc., then it would be fun to design and create and test and revise/refine, through trial-and-error, the pen which incorporated all of the features I'd like (if possible). And only then would I have a totally custom, one-off (at least, or maybe a limited production run, if that made the costs more feasible) pen which I would consider "the grail". It would sorta be like the pen equivalent of the vehicles Jim Glickenhaus commissions, but it would be cool if I was able to create it... Just wishful thinkin', however.


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## Kittysafe

Oke, that's actually how I wound up buying my Omega SMP 300M (Watch)... I wrote down all the features I wanted, didn't even know it existed, but came to find out, it did, and it was the Omega Seamaster 300M
Automatic, Black Bezel, Ceramic, Skeletal hands... it had everything I wanted.


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## Monocrom

Pens are much simpler than watches. Unlike a watch, it takes very little time to develop one's preferences regarding pens. Mainly due to the fact that with the exception of a nib, pens in general are very simple instruments.

I used to sell them, and have very few preferences myself. For the clip, it must be a wrap-around design such as the one found on the Pelikan 800 model. Clips that actually get inserted into the cap (such as on the Waterman Carene) have a tendency to pop inside the cap. Basically causing them to rattle around and making the clip pretty much useless. For weight, as an amateur writer, I prefer a large pen; but not a heavy one. A heavy pen is fine for light writing chores. Nib? ... Medium. Just works best for me. I've owned fine nibs in the past and own one bold nib pen. Still prefer medium. 

That's pretty much it though. I recommend trying out a pen before buying it since there's no measurement for "feel." If that's not possible, be sure the place you buy online from has an excellent return policy.


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## Kittysafe

I also prefer a medium nib, mainly because I will draw over pencil, so you want a bit of a wider than fine nib to not get caught up on the penciling.


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## Outlawyer

fatehbajwa said:


> I got mine a few years back and haven't looked for others since then...so I guess it can be called my Grail.
> 
> Picture taken from the internet.....


That is one beautiful pen.


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## Deathstroke

The 149 with a tri-tone nib is my favourite, one of the very few survivors of my former 30+ pen collection.


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## heb

MB "Hemmingway". Limited edition from 1992. 

Heb


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## Uwe W.

heb said:


> MB "Hemmingway". Limited edition from 1992.


I'd love to have one of those too, along with a number of other limited edition Montblanc models that have been offered over the years. Of course it would also be nice to win the lottery, because that's what it would take before I'd ever consider spending more than I already have on fountain pens.


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## Monocrom

Uwe W. said:


> I'd love to have one of those too, along with a number of other limited edition Montblanc models that have been offered over the years. Of course it would also be nice to win the lottery, because that's what it would take before I'd ever consider spending more than I already have on fountain pens.


I know the Hemingway is one of the most popular L.E. models MB has put out there. But the look of the pen is almost generic in the Pen World.


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## Uwe W.

I must just have a generic taste in pens then.


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## Deathstroke

Uwe W. said:


> I must just have a generic taste in pens then.


More like classic! It's the last one to resemble the 139.


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## bassplayrr

MB Jules Verne. A beautiful pen with, in my opinion, the coolest nib "engraving" ever.


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## Uwe W.

bassplayrr said:


> MB Jules Verne. A beautiful pen with, in my opinion, the coolest nib "engraving" ever.


Wow. I'm equally impressed by the psychedelic cap. Any chance of posting a few more photos?

Yet another theme pen that I can't afford. o|


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## Monocrom

Uwe W. said:


> Wow. I'm equally impressed by the psychedelic cap. Any chance of posting a few more photos?


+1

Would love to see more pics. of that one.


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## autopsy

Fountain pens in general are cheap enough that I've been able to afford every one that I've really lusted after. That said, there's probably one exception and that's a Danitrio Omikase pen. They are custom made and quite amazing (this is an example of one guy's order, he did not know what he was getting exactly Danitrio Omakase - Japan: Pens from the Land of the Rising Sun - The Fountain Pen Network ).

I have far more grail watches, unfortunately.


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## imaCoolRobot

The holy grail itself was a wooden cup...but I really do like this pen Amazon.com: Montegrappa Limited Edition Batman Fountain Pen (Fine): Office Products
nananannannanananna batman!


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## Kittysafe

chuasam said:


> The holy grail itself was a wooden cup...but I really do like this pen Amazon.com: Montegrappa Limited Edition Batman Fountain Pen (Fine): Office Products
> nananannannanananna batman!


Exactly, I was being ironic. I think you're the first person who got the reference I was implying.

Update:: That Batman pen is awesome, but not at that price.


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## imaCoolRobot

Kittysafe said:


> Exactly, I was being ironic. I think you're the first person who got the reference I was implying.
> 
> Update:: That Batman pen is awesome, but not at that price.


Which is precisely why I am not getting that awesome Batmanpen.
I have broken and lost and destroyed too many pens to buy something that nice.
I once put a Waterman in the washing machine (it was in my pocket)...didn't survive
I think I lost a MontBlanc...found it years later in the couch *LOL*
Lost several Lamy...far too many 
ermm...had a Parker roll off my desk and destroyed the nib on contact with the floor.
I think my next Fountain Pen would be a Noodler.


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## Kittysafe

If you want nothing to happen to something, you gotta have a home for it, its own designated little spot, I've never had a problem with my great grandfather's Shaeffer's fp, or my ST Dupont's... because I keep them by my desk in this nifty leather pen barrel and it always goes back there when I'm done with it.


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## Mike_Dowling

The term "Holy Grail" just means unattainable, because the Holy Grail is lost forever to history.


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## Kittysafe

Mike_Dowling said:


> The term "Holy Grail" just means unattainable, because the Holy Grail is lost forever to history.


I imagine the lady of the lake holding out a mighty fountain pen


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## elyk nordneg

I'd take a Lamy Safari over that, maybe even a Twsbi hehe.


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## imaCoolRobot

I really want this pen too! the Caran d'Ache Chrono 1010


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## Moon Mullins

Therightadvisor said:


> Incorrect. Look up member "evgeny0ukr" on Fountain Pen Network.
> 
> EDIT- You are also not seeing "4 of each pen." Some of those are the /3, /88, /888 edition, /4810 edition, and he has quite a few that are much more rare than that. For instance, he has a Montblanc Black Widow. Not only that but the first of only three made. He also has the first made of the 88 black widow.
> 
> He has several pens worth more than $100,000. I'd dare to guess that his collection is worth more than $10 million.
> 
> Here are some pictures of his collection (this part of his house by the way).


In my opinion that is indecent!


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## Kittysafe

Moon Mullins said:


> In my opinion that is indecent!


Money that could save thousands starving and homeless... ya, I'd say it's pretty sad.


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## imaCoolRobot

Kittysafe said:


> Money that could save thousands starving and homeless... ya, I'd say it's pretty sad.


There will always be starving and homeless. Think of this collecting as art and saving it for posterity.


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## Kittysafe

chuasam said:


> There will always be starving and homeless. Think of this collecting as art and saving it for posterity.


Worthless. All material things are inherently pointless without a beautiful story... amassing items has no real story, so no real point.

I'd rather help the homeless and the starving.


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## Moon Mullins

Individuals have the right to do with their money as they choose, but collecting of pens, watches, etc...can destroy a person's prospective as to what is really important in life. I got caught up in the watch collecting bug a few years ago, and I got a reality check from my son as we were driving through downtown Parkersburg, West Virginia. We going under an overpass and he spotted a homeless man living in a cardboard, (whatever he could find) make shift tent. He said dad we need to help people like that. He reminded me that we can't in good conscience go through life with blinders on, enjoying our lives, while there are people in need like that. I have sense trimmed my watch collection (over 20 which included Omega, Rolex, Tag and other brands) down to three (none of them high end). Don't get me wrong I still love watches, but I started to realize that I did not need to have these expensive watches lying around, when I could do more important with my money. My son and I now are active in our community delivering food to the homeless and doing what we can to make a difference. Getting yet another watch in the mail can't compare to looking into the eyes of someone that you have reached out to, and seeing the look of gratitude and joy staring back at you.

i don't mean to preach, but the image of that man's house and his collection really hit a cord with me. I am not suggesting that everyone on this forum should sell their watches and give the money to the poor (although that would be far more satisfying in the long run), but what I am saying is that we all need to remember true happiness cannot be bought, it springs from a life of giving.

Chris


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## Kittysafe

I buy nice things, clothing, hand made ST Dupont lighter, gifts for family and friends etc... but I also donate every month to at least 5 charities, ASPCA, Purple Hearts, Cancer, Paralysis, friends who need help with food or rent, Cleveland Animal protection League, I donate easily 10% of my income to charity every year... the thing is, if you took every major cause we humans face, and gave one to each billionaire on trhe planet, and got governments to start building infrastructure for countries we say we are trying to help? All these causes would be solved in a few short years, instead of where we are today, the same causes, the same problems, the same BS advertising and fraud rock shows...


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## Moon Mullins

I could not agree with you more. Like I said, I too buy nice things; what we have to guard against is not letting our possessions posses us! I was heading down that road with a ferocious appetite for watches. It didn't matter how many I bought, or how nice they were, it was never enough. Solomon summed it up this way, "It is all vanity, and a chasing after wind." 

Chris


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## D N Ravenna

There is an WUS public forum where one can discuss their ideas of when spending money is good or bad. Please consider going there when going off topic. 

Thanks!

Dan


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## Kittysafe

D N Ravenna said:


> There is an WUS public forum where one can discuss their ideas of when spending money is good or bad. Please consider going there when going off topic.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dan


I do enjoy the cafe, that would be the perfect place for the segue this discussion has taken


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## Michigan

*My Ted Kaczynski-Like Manifesto*

We all dream of different pens. I think it helps to talk about the elements of what makes something valuable in general (refer to Kapferer) and what makes a pen better than others.

Dupont is an excellent example of an upper tier pen brand, but there are others above them. They are well-made with a high use value. They come from a lighter company stung that there are not enough people smoking to find growth in that segment. So not really a great name in pens, if in other fields. Hard to see them as some embodiment of the best a pen company can do when they are not exactly a pen company. In addition, their pens, while extremely well finished, lack technical sophistication others have. Truly, cartridges and converters are not the zenith of pens. And that is what Dupont offers. Real pens drink from the bottle and don't do it as a "conversion" from their cartridge-carrying.

Now, nearly all companies, even the most luxurious, make cartridge-converters. That doesn't rule those makers out, it just shows that to err is human. After all, there is no shortage of Calatravas that take batteries, but that doesn't downgrade Patek Philippe's grail watches. But if you have CC to the exclusion of pistons et cetera, you are missing out terribly on the joy of bottled ink and its long tradition in fountain pens.

I also wish the best to those reviving dead brands. Unless you are Bob Onoto or Larry Faberge and your ancestors founded the original firm, how do you have any authenticity? You don't. Now, when you know the story of how JFK got his Montblanc 149 (he admired Konrad Adenauer's pen, so he gave it to him), you've got authenticity you cannot pay marketing MBAs to compare with.

Now we come to Cartier. Truly, a parrot-shaped pen? A sterling pen the price of a BMW? A pen advertized for its box? You can spend a lot of money to embarrass yourself, and apparently Cartier will gladly assist you. Those things might impress someone unfamiliar with fountain pens, but they make a connoisseur laugh as hard as a pave quartz watch or bulino engraving on a Glock. It looks like they are making things to demonstrate their ability to bejewel goods and to take their design language into pens. But it looks like they don't know anything about pens, per se.

So what are we left with? Well, real pens from real pen makers.  Ones with a bit of history. My vote goes to Montblanc. But I think Pelikan is also right there as well as Montegrappa if you avoid anything touched by Stallone's meat-punching mitts. I think other European firms, like OMAS, make grail pens. I am not conversant with all Japanese offerings, but I would think the rules change with their hand-painted upper-tier offerings.

I've carried a sterling piston-filled gold-nibbed fountain pen for about 20 years because it, like a classic Swiss watch, does not go out of style as I age. What is my grail? I dream of either a Montblanc skeleton or a Montegrappa-made Breguet special order pen in the same material as a matching Breguet watch. I would expect those pens to have a pretty small following. But I think that is the point of refining a thought and of having refined taste. To separate the greatest from the merely good and great.


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## wkwntd

Kittysafe said:


> Holy Grail of Fountain Pens?
> 
> I just saw this, no price listed, must be insane, guessing $10-$15,000 easy...
> Exceptional Hawk fountain pen - Sterling silver, blue and gray lacquer, palmeira citrine - Fine Writing Instruments for men and for women - Cartier
> 
> EXCEPTIONAL HAWK FOUNTAIN PEN
> Sterling silver, blue and gray lacquer, palmeira citrine
> REF: ST190063
> 
> Pens of extreme refinement created in the finest materials: pink, yellow or white gold, sterling silver, and set with precious stones.
> Limited edition of 100 individually numbered pens. Exceptional Hawk fountain pen in sterling silver with palladium finish, blue and gray lacquer, Palmeira citrine eyes, rhodiumized 18K solid gold nib. Stand in black rock crystal and sterling silver with palladium finish.
> 
> Dimensions:
> pen: length 164 mm x width 19 mm.
> Stand: length 91.1 mm x width 76.8 mm.
> 
> View attachment 1208639


The price has been posted and it would only be pocket change to someone with very deep pockets. $42,600 plus sales tax


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## Lazycollegekid

As a 20 year old college student who works part time, my grail is rather humble I'm afraid, but I long for a namiki falcon.


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## Kittysafe

Lazycollegekid said:


> As a 20 year old college student who works part time, my grail is rather humble I'm afraid, but I long for a namiki falcon.


Namiki Falcon is a great pen. ST Dupont Defi though will be able to withstand college better.


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## D N Ravenna

If you are a college student, I would get what is least expensive. The DuPont may have a sturdier nib, but as long as you do not share, it should not matter. 

Cheers!

Dan


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## jar

Grail threads always reflect personal tastes; one person's grail will be another person's gruel. 

For me my grail pens all have modern filling systems based around cartridges and converters. Of course there are also pens that use older filling systems like pistons and ink sacs and plungers but I find they just don't get much pocket time. I'll get one out every once in awhile and they get some time in the sun but seldom reach regular use.

A few such pens might reach "grail" status in spite of not having a modern filling system because they have some other feature that makes them special. My mother's 1941 Parker "51", dad's 1943 Parker Vacuumatic that he carried across North Africa and Italy and the Middle East and Persian Gulf, my grandfather's Sheaffer Balance plunger filler would fall in that category.

My Montblancs and Pelikans and OMAS and Auroras are nice but hardly "grail" pens.

The pens that seem to get the majority of available pocket time are from Graf von Faber Castell, Caran d'Ache, Yard-o-Led, Ferrari da Varese, Montegrappa, ST Dupont and all use the modern cartridge converter filling system.


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## fountainpen_geek

I don't know if I would say it's my holy grail...but lately I haven't been able to stop looking at and reading about the Montegrappa Sophia Yellow Gold. It's only about $13k (ONLY?!?!?!? Well "only" compared to the $45k tag on your Hawk)...but I simply love the story Montegrappa is telling with this pen. The power and importance of writing to the transmission and evolution of human knowledge. Paying respect to the importance of writing in where we are as a humanity today by making a pen like this...I just love it. Not to mention that it's gorgeous!


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## fountainpen_geek




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## collectingfool

*Re: My Ted Kaczynski-Like Manifesto*



Michigan said:


> So what are we left with? Well, real pens from real pen makers. Ones with a bit of history. My vote goes to Montblanc.
> <snip>
> I've carried a sterling piston-filled gold-nibbed fountain pen for about 20 years


if youre a pen person the Cartier seems ridiculous. You care about the writing experience and quality and you can find something superior in those qualities for 1/100th of the price. However not everyone that buys pens has the same criteria. It's like the average non-professional racer buying a nice sports car. They will likely never fully understand or appreciate the quality of what they have or use their car as it was truly designed to be used but they like it and don't normally get the kind of grief people get on these specialized forums.

Once you reach a certain price point quality is no longer as big a factor as brand and status. It goes for everything. This is just another example.

BTW, I'd like to see that pen you've been carrying for 20 years.


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## Kittysafe

*Re: My Ted Kaczynski-Like Manifesto*

Let me be clear, because the message seems to be getting confused... by holy grail, I didn't mean a pen I desired, but the outward expression of the holy grail, the golden cup, the samsara, the attachment... which is not the true spirit of the grail... 
the cup is what must be let go of, in order to appreciate the spirit of it...

My favorite fountain pen is my great grandfather's Shaeffer snorkel, then the ones in my signature image which I use regularly.

Thanks


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## collectingfool

*Re: My Ted Kaczynski-Like Manifesto*

Believe me I understand. I can afford to buy some valuable pens now but the one I'd consider my favorite is a Waterman rollerball from a gift pen and pencil set my brother got me when I finally landed my dream job about 20 years ago. It had a "hematite" finish which has flaked off a lot but I use it every day at work.

I know "grail" has become a catch phrase in the collecting world and many misuse it but nitpicking these trivialities is what these forums are for right?


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## Kittysafe

*Re: My Ted Kaczynski-Like Manifesto*

Hematite finish... snazzy! Hematite is supposedly a very "grounding" stone, which would be great for a pen.


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## Mike_Dowling

I don't have a grail pen using the definition above because I can basically go buy any pen I would want to own right now with little impact, now watches are a different story.

I did just pick up a Pilot Vanishing Point in matte black and it's awesome.


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## D N Ravenna

Mike_Dowling said:


> I don't have a grail pen using the definition above because I can basically go buy any pen I would want to own right now with little impact, now watches are a different story.
> 
> I did just pick up a Pilot Vanishing Point in matte black and it's awesome.


I know what you mean. I have been using mine for some tme and really do like it!

Dan


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## jar

Mike_Dowling said:


> I don't have a grail pen using the definition above because I can basically go buy any pen I would want to own right now with little impact, now watches are a different story.
> 
> I did just pick up a Pilot Vanishing Point in matte black and it's awesome.


I actually have one of my VPs inked and in use now. It's a burgundy faceted model from the 90s.


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## CastorKrieg

As mentioned many times before holy grail will differ from person to person. I am fortunate enough to own my own holy grail:









Montblanc Qing Dynasty 2002 Limited Edition, with a cap carved out of jade.

Had a talk with MB boutique manager in Hong Kong, apparently the Chinese buyers are prepared to pay any price for one of these. The manager never saw one. Imagine her face when I opened my briefcase and showed her my pen


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## meloie

Therightadvisor said:


> Looks very cool, but I certainly wouldn't call it a "Holy Grail of Fountain Pens."
> 
> To this guy, that pen would probably make a nice paperweight, lol.


That collection looks garish.

I need to look away now....


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