# Help a brutha out?



## docvail

Hi there, I'm Chris, or "Doc" to many who know me from the affordable watches sub forum. I own microbrands Lew & Huey and NTH.

My wife and some of the other women I know have been bugging me to make a ladies watch for a few years, yet I've held off for many reasons.

However, I've been thinking about it again lately. I don't plan to make a unique, clean-slate design, due to my manufacturing MOQ's (minimum order quantities), but I was thinking about making a ladies or unisex version of my 40mm NTH Subs, which are very thin divers with a case based on the "big crown" Rolex subs from the late '50's. My wife currently wears one, the Santa Cruz. While it's a tad big for a ladies watch, she pulls it off, and she doesn't have "man-hands".









I have some basic ideas - white or pink ceramic bezel inlay, mother-of-pearl dials in white, pink or blue, a style which brings down the manliness of the "tool watch", but without going so far as to become a "girly" piece of jewelry. Maybe offering it on a strap (or two) instead of the bracelet. I was thinking about croco-grain, stingray and/or a rubber strap in white.

The Subs were designed to fit the Miyota 9015, but I suppose I could offer a quartz movement if that was preferable, or perhaps a choice - 9015 or quartz, as an option.

I realize the female population of WIS is a lot smaller than the male population. I was thinking this might be a watch women who are into watches buy for themselves, or it could be that "real" watch my male customers want to buy as a gift for a wife, girlfriend or daughter, but can't find one with the right specs and features to earn WIS street cred.

I was hoping I could solicit some feedback here, about what the big must-have's or deal-killers are for most of you, i.e., would you prefer a steel bracelet to a strap? Is pink a no-go? Should I add some bling with jeweled markers or gold-trimmed hands/indices? Would you rather have just a stainless steel bezel? Am I crazy for considering a $500-$600 tool watch for women*?

My wife really likes the Chanel Ceramic J12, like, A LOT. But the thing is, it's the most popular ladies watch in the world, and homages of it are a dime a dozen. I was thinking of doing something a little more "serious", like a more "girly" version of the Blancpain Bathyscape - elegant, clean lines, not too blingy, rugged/durable without looking rugged or durable, something with real-world capabilities without appearing over-tough.

I sincerely appreciate any input and advice you all would have for me.

*I should clarify, about the price-target - I don't foresee selling a ton of ladies watches, or this being my "break-out" model. I may make 100 pieces and see how it goes. My production and sales volume is pretty small, so I stay away from the under $300 slice of the market. My target price range is more $500-$600 for just about everything I make. So I guess what I'm asking is, what would it take to get you to part with that much for a micro-brand ladies diver?


----------



## MrDagon007

You could try crystals for hour markers.


----------



## mystic nerd

Considering the bracelet/strap decision, I would not offer leather on a dive watch. Regardless of gender, leather doesn't tolerate immersion well.

I think a nice bracelet will be the go-to choice on a ladies' diver. Some might go for a rubber strap but I think it won't look like a ladies' watch when it's on rubber. If they want the black strap, they likely would be happy with a watch designed for men.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sillygoose

Wow, this is a welcome post, Doc! The women's market certainly is hard to get, especially when you're working with a smaller number. 

I can't speak for other women, but I'm personally not into the typical offerings, i.e. bling. I don't like pink either, but maybe something in pastel colors would be nice. I do like the color combo of the Santa Cruz and would've bought it if it weren't for the Mercedes hands. I'm not one who cares for bracelets, so I'd appreciate a strap, though I've never worn a stock strap because they're all too long for me. And I definitely prefer mechanical over quartz. 

Seeing your post got me really excited. It's great to have watch companies invested in their customers! I'm really happy with my Nacken and wasn't planning on getting another watch with the same case, but if this comes to fruition, I just might!

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## docvail

mystic nerd said:


> Considering the bracelet/strap decision, I would not offer leather on a dive watch. Regardless of gender, leather doesn't tolerate immersion well.
> 
> I think a nice bracelet will be the go-to choice on a ladies' diver. Some might go for a rubber strap but I think it won't look like a ladies' watch when it's on rubber. If they want the black strap, they likely would be happy with a watch designed for men.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasn't thinking black for the rubber strap. I was thinking white. I was also thinking, it's unlikely many would see actual diving use, so maybe a leather strap would be preferable for women, because it makes the watch lighter, but I want to validate such ideas here before running with them.


----------



## BillSWPA

A bracelet would be best. They look nice and last a long time. I never understood why people put leather bands on dive watches - putting something that cannot get wet on a watch that is designed to get wet makes no sense.

Regarding the movement, I suspect that more ladies would prefer quartz to mechanical. Quartz is simple and accurate, and does not require expensive services to maintain. For whatever it is worth, that is the conclusion Tiffany reached when picking a movement for their lady’s watches.

Regardless of which type of movement you choose, at that price point the movement should be something having good durability and accuracy. In my own recent watch shopping, I have come across multiple seemingly nice watches that I later learned contained movements that were cheap and low grade for the price point of the watch.

Something in a feminine size, with some bling and/or girly touches, without compromising the basic diving watch function and style, could look really nice on a lady’s wrist. A pink or light blue dial could look really nice with the right color bezel and bracelet.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## katfromTN

I think it’s really funny that the men who comment say something “pink”, “blingy” and “quartz” would be nice on a lady’s wrist because they assume that’s what we want. I know I’m not like most ladies but that’s pretty much opposite of what I want in a watch. Nothings wrong with pink, but unless it’s a sunburst salmon color, it’s a no go for me. I think white or light blue would work well. And if your going for more of a unisex model, then absolutely no bling. As far as size goes I think anywhere between 36-38mm would be perfect, that way both men and women could wear it. A bracelet is always preferred to me or perhaps a mesh/milanais strap? I would definitely prefer automatic to quartz. I think most women prefer quartz for the mere fact they just don’t know anything about auto’s. I have several female coworkers that love my watches but would never buy an auto on their own because they just don’t know much about them. I’m thinking a watch like your designing will target either fellow female WIS or by gentleman WIS for their lady companions or gentleman who may want a smaller watch. It would be better in my opinion to design a watch that would be more universal instead of the stereotypical pink, shiny, blingy designs. Thanks for coming here looking for feedback I’m very excited to see what you come up with!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MrDagon007

Now that I think about it, our kids' paediatrician lady wears the everose Rolex Yachtmaster on its rubber strap, and while it was a watch that I didn t pay attention to before, I have to say it looked great on this elegant lady.
A style to keep in mind.


----------



## ciccio_started_it

Really excited to see what you come up with. I'd absolutely stay away from 'bling' or pink. I think the idea here is to come up with a tool watch that is feminine, not girly. I'd look at early Rolex salmon dial bubble backs for inspiration. Something like this:








As far as your case size, I think your nth sub cases are absolutely a great base for a woman's watch. My girl regularly borrows and rocks my 39mm sub homage and she has impossibly tiny wrists and it looks great on her.

I think a lot of people here think of chunky diver bands when they think of rubber... I think a nicely tapered and thin white or even red rubber band would absolutely work.

Just my two cents.

Follow me on Instagram @ciccio_started_it


----------



## MrDagon007

Next to the everose rolex above, I find these Bulgaris remarkably nice for women. Colourful, playful, nice bezels, nice straps:


----------



## docvail

Gentlemen, respectfully, when I started the thread, I was hoping to hear from women. I'm already drowning in advice/suggestions from dudes.

I'm not the most perceptive cat when it comes to picking up on subtle hints, but even I saw the one dropped here in a recent post, alluding to the tendency men have to think they know what women want. After 20+ years of marriage, the only thing I know about what women want is I should let them tell me, unless they say "nothing", because that never means "nothing."


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## MrDagon007

docvail said:


> Gentlemen, respectfully, when I started the thread, I was hoping to hear from women. I'm already drowning in advice/suggestions from dudes.
> 
> I'm not the most perceptive cat when it comes to picking up on subtle hints, but even I saw the one dropped here in a recent post, alluding to the tendency men have to think they know what women want. After 20+ years of marriage, the only thing I know about what women want is I should let them tell me, unless they say "nothing", because that never means "nothing."
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


actually my wife LOVED the everose yachtmaster that our kids' paediatrician wore. So there!


----------



## docvail

MrDagon007 said:


> actually my wife LOVED the everose yachtmaster that our kids' paediatrician wore. So there!


I respect that, Tom, but if I wanted to know what guys' wives liked, I could ask guys. I came to the ladies forum seeking ladies' opinions.

Understand, my hunch was and is that I'm likely to get a different set of views from female WIS here on the forum, as compared to what your or my wife might say. I don't know but two or three female WIS among my customers, so this is the only place I'm likely to find even a small sample size from which to gather opinions and insights, and the more guys comment, the more concerned I become that the very people I want to hear from most get turned off to the discussion, and the picture I get is just as skewed as it would be had I started this thread in the affordable sub-forum.

So, please, don't take offense, but I'd appreciate you yielding the floor to those who know their own minds better than either of us ever will.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## katfromTN

Doc, I'll add that I love the Santa Cruz you posted in the beginning of the thread. I could certainly pull it off at 40mm with my 6.5 wrist but if it was 38mm that would be perfect. Right now, my top 3 divers that I'm in love with and are on my wish list:

Tudors Sub Prince Date in salmon 









Squale 60atmos in bright blue (probably won't buy because it's too big) 









Omega Seamaster Pro electric blue










The Omega should be incoming this month  But these are just to give you an idea of what I personally look for in a diver. I love bright colors especially on a bracelet. 36-38mm is a sweet spot for me and I think that will work for many men as well.

I do hope more women chime in on this conversation. I know there's more than just a couple of us out here!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail

katfromTN said:


> Doc, I'll add that I love the Santa Cruz you posted in the beginning of the thread. I could certainly pull it off at 40mm with my 6.5 wrist but if it was 38mm that would be perfect. Right now, my top 3 divers that I'm in love with and are on my wish list:
> 
> Tudors Sub Prince Date in salmon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Squale 60atmos in bright blue (probably won't buy because it's too big)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omega Seamaster Pro electric blue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Omega should be incoming this month  But these are just to give you an idea of what I personally look for in a diver. I love bright colors especially on a bracelet. 36-38mm is a sweet spot for me and I think that will work for many men as well.
> 
> I do hope more women chime in on this conversation. I know there's more than just a couple of us out here!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the kind words. My wife likes the Santa Cruz too, and I've had a half dozen customers tell me their wives have attempted to commandeer the Santa Cruz from them.

I'd seen designs similar to that Tudor with the pink sunburst dial, and thought they were solid, aesthetically, so I'll add that one to my file of reference images.

The Squale and Omega are interesting picks, in that they don't seem to be specifically for the ladies market, which is a key point in my considerations - how much of a "ladies" watch should I be going for, as opposed to something more unisex, or just a more colorful/less "butch" version of something I'm already making?

I had spent some time considering doing a <40mm watch, thinking I could make 50-100 pieces with a ladies/unisex design, and the rest with a "man's" design, but I'm hesitant to do anything under 40mm, especially in a diving watch with a bezel, which shrinks the dial size.

My reading of the tea leaves is that 40mm is a size most guys can pull off no matter what size wrists they have, and while I'm here discussing a ladies model, 99% of my customers are men. When I produce a new model, I have to make 300 cases, preferably 500, and (sorry to go here), size does matter. I believe I can sell more pieces and at a faster pace if I stay with the 40mm size, than if I dropped down to 38mm. I realize that 40mm may limit the appeal to women, but I'm more concerned about 38mm limiting the appeal to men, since they make up the larger share of the WIS market which is my base.

Not that I'd never make a smaller size, only that I'm already planning to make more of the 40mm Subs, so it's not a huge risk to make 50-100 of a ladies/unisex version, as compared to spending the resources to develop a new 38mm model. When my business is larger, it'll be easier to justify broadening the sizing of the product range. For now, it's not something I'm prepared to invest in.


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> Thanks for the kind words. My wife likes the Santa Cruz too, and I've had a half dozen customers tell me their wives have attempted to commandeer the Santa Cruz from them.
> 
> I'd seen designs similar to that Tudor with the pink sunburst dial, and thought they were solid, aesthetically, so I'll add that one to my file of reference images.
> 
> The Squale and Omega are interesting picks, in that they don't seem to be specifically for the ladies market, which is a key point in my considerations - how much of a "ladies" watch should I be going for, as opposed to something more unisex, or just a more colorful/less "butch" version of something I'm already making?
> 
> I had spent some time considering doing a <40mm watch, thinking I could make 50-100 pieces with a ladies/unisex design, and the rest with a "man's" design, but I'm hesitant to do anything under 40mm, especially in a diving watch with a bezel, which shrinks the dial size.
> 
> My reading of the tea leaves is that 40mm is a size most guys can pull off no matter what size wrists they have, and while I'm here discussing a ladies model, 99% of my customers are men. When I produce a new model, I have to make 300 cases, preferably 500, and (sorry to go here), size does matter. I believe I can sell more pieces and at a faster pace if I stay with the 40mm size, than if I dropped down to 38mm. I realize that 40mm may limit the appeal to women, but I'm more concerned about 38mm limiting the appeal to men, since they make up the larger share of the WIS market which is my base.
> 
> Not that I'd never make a smaller size, only that I'm already planning to make more of the 40mm Subs, so it's not a huge risk to make 50-100 of a ladies/unisex version, as compared to spending the resources to develop a new 38mm model. When my business is larger, it'll be easier to justify broadening the sizing of the product range. For now, it's not something I'm prepared to invest in.


I agree, I think you'll have more luck with a more unisex design but with bright colors. Perhaps a salmon sunburst dial or sky blue would work well, with still reaching out towards the gentleman wearers. I can definitely pull off a 40mm and forgot that divers tend to wear a little smaller than their case size. I have several watches that are 39/40 but their also not divers which tend to be on the thicker side. I think most women would be able to wear a 40mm, especially with women wearing larger wrist watches these days. The omega and squale I like are definitely not targeted towards women but I love the bright blue, while both very different, each of them has. I haven't really found a diver marketed towards females that I really like to be honest. Most companies just make a smaller version of their men's to market to the ladies so color options are usually limited. Very interested to see what you come up with.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sillygoose

Like @katfromTN, I also really like the Squale 60 atmos she referenced, but am also not buying it because of the size. I really like turquoise (like the Santa Cruz) and colors that are more fun. The salmon color of the Tudor isn't bad. I've been looking for a burgundy/maroon dial, yellow, and something along the lines of a creamsicle orange.

I'm liking all the colors present in these Rolex Oyster Perpetual watches to give an idea of what colors appeal to me.

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## katfromTN

Sillygoose said:


> Like @katfromTN, I also really like the Squale 60 atmos she referenced, but am also not buying it because of the size. I really like turquoise (like the Santa Cruz) and colors that are more fun. The salmon color of the Tudor isn't bad. I've been looking for a burgundy/maroon dial, yellow, and something along the lines of a creamsicle orange.
> 
> I'm liking all the colors present in these Rolex Oyster Perpetual watches to give an idea of what colors appeal to me.
> 
> - Tappy Talkied


Definitely dig the yellow!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BillSWPA

I completely understand wanting feedback from the ladies, particularly after buying 3 watches for my wife and only getting one really right. 

One thing i suggest asking the ladies is whether or not having a date window is a factor for them.


----------



## katfromTN

BillSWPA said:


> I completely understand wanting feedback from the ladies, particularly after buying 3 watches for my wife and only getting one really right.
> 
> One thing i suggest asking the ladies is whether or not having a date window is a factor for them.


I personally like having the date window only because I use it daily at work so it's highly functional for me. However, it's not a deal breaker.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mharris660

My wife and I are divers and it's really hard to find a nice "diveable" watch for women. Most women who dive don't care about pink dials, diamond marker fashion watches. They want a pure, simple, functioning dive watch. Black face, maybe white or even a muted color like blue or orange. They don't like to be "gendered". Let other companies make fashion "dive" watches. You should focus on the market of women who actually dive and then promote them at dive and sports shops which are mostly independently owned, that way you don't have to deal with some corporate purchaser. If Seiko made a woman's PADI diver they would sell every one. Make one, or make a NAUI diver, there's your market and advertising wrapped up in one neat package. That 500 you hope to sell? You'll pass that for sure. This is your market: The Rise and Rise of Female Scuba Divers


----------



## docvail

I showed my wife some of the pics here, and told her what my ideas were - basically, to do two colorways, one more monochrome, most likely matte-white-dial-on-white-bezel, the other more playful, like sunburst pink/salmon-on-steel.

She said the Santa Cruz sometimes feels heavy with the bracelet, but not like, 'OMG, it's so heavy', just that it's heavy enough she doesn't forget she's wearing it, the way I do when I'm wearing one of my Subs.

I was thinking about offering the watch with two straps, instead of a bracelet, one a white rubber strap with a pattern to complement the watch, the other something less dive-ready, perhaps croco-grain leather, or something exotic, like stingray, with a color to complement the dial.

















Those Rolexes are interesting for the other, non-pink colors. I'm sure there are some guys, even straight guys, who could rock a pink-dialed watch, but maybe something more neutral or pastel would be better for the unisex role, so the colorways might be white-on-white and pastel on steel, like that "creamsicle".

So, ladies (impossible not to feel creepy starting that way...), do you prefer a bracelet (maybe with a butterfly clasp, rather than the diver's folding clasp), or would you rather have two straps (maybe with quick-release spring bars)?

Do you favor a particular style of dial pattern? Like I said, I think the smaller-markers of the Blancpain Bathyscape might be the elegance needed for a ladies/unisex watch, whereas I always found them a bit too spartan for the black-dialed man's version.









Should I be thinking about white-on-white and one of the other colors, or should I ditch white-on-white and go for two pastel dials with stainless bezels?

Handsets? I'm thinking something dive-ready, with decent-size lume patches, but with a more slender shape to them, like the Bathyscape hands, or something like on this Oris, where the long leaf-shape seems more organic..


----------



## BillSWPA

mharris660 said:


> My wife and I are divers and it's really hard to find a nice "diveable" watch for women. Most women who dive don't care about pink dials, diamond marker fashion watches. They want a pure, simple, functioning dive watch. Black face, maybe white or even a muted color like blue or orange. They don't like to be "gendered". Let other companies make fashion "dive" watches. You should focus on the market of women who actually dive and then promote them at dive and sports shops which are mostly independently owned, that way you don't have to deal with some corporate purchaser. If Seiko made a woman's PADI diver they would sell every one. Make one, or make a NAUI diver, there's your market and advertising wrapped up in one neat package. That 500 you hope to sell? You'll pass that for sure. This is your market: The Rise and Rise of Female Scuba Divers


I agree with everything above, but please do not use PADI or NAUI unless you have a trademark license from the relevant organization. Resolving a trademark dispute will eat up your profits very quickly.


----------



## docvail

No worries. I already have a naming convention in place for this model line.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mharris660

BillSWPA said:


> I agree with everything above, but please do not use PADI or NAUI unless you have a trademark license from the relevant organization. Resolving a trademark dispute will eat up your profits very quickly.


I agree completely, it goes without saying the organizations should be included in the branding. With that in place you have advertising from the two major dive schools.


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> I showed my wife some of the pics here, and told her what my ideas were - basically, to do two colorways, one more monochrome, most likely matte-white-dial-on-white-bezel, the other more playful, like sunburst pink/salmon-on-steel.
> 
> She said the Santa Cruz sometimes feels heavy with the bracelet, but not like, 'OMG, it's so heavy', just that it's heavy enough she doesn't forget she's wearing it, the way I do when I'm wearing one of my Subs.
> 
> I was thinking about offering the watch with two straps, instead of a bracelet, one a white rubber strap with a pattern to complement the watch, the other something less dive-ready, perhaps croco-grain leather, or something exotic, like stingray, with a color to complement the dial.
> 
> View attachment 13142841
> 
> 
> View attachment 13142839
> 
> 
> Those Rolexes are interesting for the other, non-pink colors. I'm sure there are some guys, even straight guys, who could rock a pink-dialed watch, but maybe something more neutral or pastel would be better for the unisex role, so the colorways might be white-on-white and pastel on steel, like that "creamsicle".
> 
> So, ladies (impossible not to feel creepy starting that way...), do you prefer a bracelet (maybe with a butterfly clasp, rather than the diver's folding clasp), or would you rather have two straps (maybe with quick-release spring bars)?
> 
> Do you favor a particular style of dial pattern? Like I said, I think the smaller-markers of the Blancpain Bathyscape might be the elegance needed for a ladies/unisex watch, whereas I always found them a bit too spartan for the black-dialed man's version.
> 
> View attachment 13142835
> 
> 
> Should I be thinking about white-on-white and one of the other colors, or should I ditch white-on-white and go for two pastel dials with stainless bezels?
> 
> Handsets? I'm thinking something dive-ready, with decent-size lume patches, but with a more slender shape to them, like the Bathyscape hands, or something like on this Oris, where the long leaf-shape seems more organic..
> 
> View attachment 13142833


Love the hands on the oris. As far as dial pattern I agree the style on the blancpain is really flattering but I'm not too particular. I like the color options with the steel bezel. For me, I always prefer my watches, especially divers, to be on bracelets. If mine aren't on bracelets, then I usually have them on some sort of colorful nato. I use my divers as an everyday wearer and of course wear them when I'm in the water. Don't care for the way rubber sticks to me when I'm hot and I'm not a fan of leather on divers. Again, this is just one girls opinion 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sillygoose

docvail said:


> I was thinking about offering the watch with two straps, instead of a bracelet, one a white rubber strap with a pattern to complement the watch, the other something less dive-ready, perhaps croco-grain leather, or something exotic, like stingray, with a color to complement the dial.
> 
> Those Rolexes are interesting for the other, non-pink colors. I'm sure there are some guys, even straight guys, who could rock a pink-dialed watch, but maybe something more neutral or pastel would be better for the unisex role, so the colorways might be white-on-white and pastel on steel, like that "creamsicle".
> 
> So, ladies (impossible not to feel creepy starting that way...), do you prefer a bracelet (maybe with a butterfly clasp, rather than the diver's folding clasp), or would you rather have two straps (maybe with quick-release spring bars)?
> 
> Do you favor a particular style of dial pattern? Like I said, I think the smaller-markers of the Blancpain Bathyscape might be the elegance needed for a ladies/unisex watch, whereas I always found them a bit too spartan for the black-dialed man's version.
> 
> Should I be thinking about white-on-white and one of the other colors, or should I ditch white-on-white and go for two pastel dials with stainless bezels?
> 
> Handsets? I'm thinking something dive-ready, with decent-size lume patches, but with a more slender shape to them, like the Bathyscape hands, or something like on this Oris, where the long leaf-shape seems more organic..


I like the sound of where you're going with this! A concern about the white-on-white colorway is whether it'll make the watch seem too big? I know bezels generally help make the dial look smaller, but would a monochrome white give the impression of the dial extending to the edge of the bezel? Since 40mm is on the larger end of the spectrum for many women, I wonder if it'll make the watch look too big.

I like the sound of the colored dial with steel bezel though. Maybe one with white dial and a brighter-colored bezel like the Santa Cruz and another with a pastel dial and stainless bezel? I'm not sure what options of bezel colors are available to you.

I'd prefer two straps and really like the look of the stingray. Will the straps be a length that's more useable for women? I'm not sure what the average strap length for women is, but many short-length commercial straps are still a bit too long for me. Quick-release would be nice, but the drilled lugs on your Subs come in pretty handy already.

No particular dial pattern in mind for me, but I agree that the Blancpain you referenced looks pretty good. I also like the idea of the slender leaf handset, similar to that of the minute hand on the Oris.

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## docvail

Sillygoose said:


> I like the sound of where you're going with this! A concern about the white-on-white colorway is whether it'll make the watch seem too big? I know bezels generally help make the dial look smaller, but would a monochrome white give the impression of the dial extending to the edge of the bezel? Since 40mm is on the larger end of the spectrum for many women, I wonder if it'll make the watch look too big.
> 
> I like the sound of the colored dial with steel bezel though. Maybe one with white dial and a brighter-colored bezel like the Santa Cruz and another with a pastel dial and stainless bezel? I'm not sure what options of bezel colors are available to you.
> 
> I'd prefer two straps and really like the look of the stingray. Will the straps be a length that's more useable for women? I'm not sure what the average strap length for women is, but many short-length commercial straps are still a bit too long for me. Quick-release would be nice, but the drilled lugs on your Subs come in pretty handy already.
> 
> No particular dial pattern in mind for me, but I agree that the Blancpain you referenced looks pretty good. I also like the idea of the slender leaf handset, similar to that of the minute hand on the Oris.
> 
> - Tappy Talkied


I had't thought about the effect the color of the bezel would have on the perception of the watch's size, but that's a good point, as it may in fact make it look a bit "pie plate". For that reason, and the mention of those Rolexes, as well as that Tudor (and other designs like it) I'm now thinking about keeping the bezel stainless, and just figuring out if one of the colorways should be a white dial, or if I should do two colors, one more lively, one more neutral.

My wife also likes that mauve (?) dial on the Rolex (I've been keeping her posted, because if I don't, and make something she doesn't like, there will be serious repercussions). She likes white-on-white and pink, so...you understand why those were the two colorways I was thinking about. Maybe she'd be down for a pastel color

I meant to respond to your point about the strap length, but forgot to.

The simplest thing for me to do would be to just sell the watch on the same bracelet the other versions will have. It's an oyster style, but we're planning to make some improvements to it for the next round of production (better link articulation, softer edges, convex-curved inner surfaces). That said, one of the improvements is a sturdier, slightly longer (more micro-adjustments), more toolish clasp, so I'd likely see if I could source something different for the bracelet on this version, my first thought being a single-locking butterfly clasp.

If I can figure out how to offer either a bracelet or the strap(s) as an option people could choose, I'd have to figure out if we should size the strap for "unisex", or "ladies", which is the sort of dilemma I try to avoid. Can I even source a good quality, shorter-length strap with a lower (100 pieces or less) MOQ? I don't know. Sometimes it's easier to avoid bigger MOQ's if you're ordering something stock from a supplier's catalog. I'll have to confirm the length of the straps I was looking at.

I usually offer watches with bracelets because I figure it's easier for people to find a strap they like than find an aftermarket bracelet to fit right. But since I haven't started production yet, I figured I'd ask about it along with all the others stuff, in case the weight of the assembled watch + bracelet is a concern, especially given the 40mm case, which is lighter than a lot of diving watches, but still, it's solid.

If I did the white or pink ceramic bezel inlay, I think that might shave a few grams off it, compared to the steel bezel, but I'm leaning more towards the steel, just for long-term durability. Although ceramic is more scratch-resistant, steel is shatterproof, so less concerns about the watch being dropped and cracking the bezel.


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> I had't thought about the effect the color of the bezel would have on the perception of the watch's size, but that's a good point, as it may in fact make it look a bit "pie plate". For that reason, and the mention of those Rolexes, as well as that Tudor (and other designs like it) I'm now thinking about keeping the bezel stainless, and just figuring out if one of the colorways should be a white dial, or if I should do two colors, one more lively, one more neutral.
> 
> My wife also likes that mauve (?) dial on the Rolex (I've been keeping her posted, because if I don't, and make something she doesn't like, there will be serious repercussions). She likes white-on-white and pink, so...you understand why those were the two colorways I was thinking about. Maybe she'd be down for a pastel color
> 
> I meant to respond to your point about the strap length, but forgot to.
> 
> The simplest thing for me to do would be to just sell the watch on the same bracelet the other versions will have. It's an oyster style, but we're planning to make some improvements to it for the next round of production (better link articulation, softer edges, convex-curved inner surfaces). That said, one of the improvements is a sturdier, slightly longer (more micro-adjustments), more toolish clasp, so I'd likely see if I could source something different for the bracelet on this version, my first thought being a single-locking butterfly clasp.
> 
> If I can figure out how to offer either a bracelet or the strap(s) as an option people could choose, I'd have to figure out if we should size the strap for "unisex", or "ladies", which is the sort of dilemma I try to avoid. Can I even source a good quality, shorter-length strap with a lower (100 pieces or less) MOQ? I don't know. Sometimes it's easier to avoid bigger MOQ's if you're ordering something stock from a supplier's catalog. I'll have to confirm the length of the straps I was looking at.
> 
> I usually offer watches with bracelets because I figure it's easier for people to find a strap they like than find an aftermarket bracelet to fit right. But since I haven't started production yet, I figured I'd ask about it along with all the others stuff, in case the weight of the assembled watch + bracelet is a concern, especially given the 40mm case, which is lighter than a lot of diving watches, but still, it's solid.
> 
> If I did the white or pink ceramic bezel inlay, I think that might shave a few grams off it, compared to the steel bezel, but I'm leaning more towards the steel, just for long-term durability. Although ceramic is more scratch-resistant, steel is shatterproof, so less concerns about the watch being dropped and cracking the bezel.


I'd lean more towards the steel bezel too, just because you could offer really any color dial option and it would work. I've never really given much thought to weight of a watch but I don't have any that I believe are significantly heavy. Most of my watches I've bought online and never tried them on prior. I can see how a lot more men buy tool watches and therefore I'm sure they've considered weight more than I have. I tend to lean towards a bracelet for the very reason you described, much easier to find a strap for the watch than a bracelet that fits.

Kudos to your wife, looking back on those Rolex pics, the dark purple/muave color would look great in sunburst with the steel bezel imo.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KCZ

Sillygoose said:


> Like @katfromTN, I also really like the Squale 60 atmos she referenced, but am also not buying it because of the size. I really like turquoise (like the Santa Cruz) and colors that are more fun. The salmon color of the Tudor isn't bad. I've been looking for a burgundy/maroon dial, yellow, and something along the lines of a creamsicle orange.
> 
> I'm liking all the colors present in these Rolex Oyster Perpetual watches to give an idea of what colors appeal to me.
> 
> - Tappy Talkied


Another woman's opinion...

I'm totally on board with these ^^^ colors, or red, emerald green, and turquoise. No more pastel blue and pink, which are frequently the only colors offered in women's models (black and white are not colors). The women on this board gripe repeatedly about the lack of color choices in women's watches.

Momentum used to make their women's 31mm M1 in a rainbow of colors, but have now moved to a 38mm white-faced watch with a colored bezel. I'd love to see those colors again, in a larger size.








Deep Blue offered their Sea Ramic quartz in these colors and sold a boatload of them for ~$250 on one of the TV shopping sites.








And God in heaven, don't put white hands on a white face, or blue hands on a blue face, or orange hands on a orange face. How are we supposed to read something like these? Men wouldn't put up with these design flaws, but we're supposed to like them because they're color-coordinated or some other BS.



docvail said:


> Do you favor a particular style of dial pattern? Like I said, I think the smaller-markers of the Blancpain Bathyscape might be the elegance needed for a ladies/unisex watch, whereas I always found them a bit too spartan for the black-dialed man's version.
> 
> View attachment 13142835
> 
> 
> Should I be thinking about white-on-white and one of the other colors, or should I ditch white-on-white and go for two pastel dials with stainless bezels?
> 
> Handsets? I'm thinking something dive-ready, with decent-size lume patches, but with a more slender shape to them, like the Bathyscape hands, or something like on this Oris, where the long leaf-shape seems more organic..
> 
> View attachment 13142833


Offer a bracelet, +/- rubber strap. Leather is not appropriate for a diver. And I agree with what Kat said about it being difficult to find a bracelet to fit a prior watch purchase.

As for size, if this is supposed to be a woman's watch, I'd stick with 36mm. If I wanted a 38mm or 40mm watch, I'd just buy a man's watch. I have a 7 inch wrist and I can't pull off a diver >36mm because this is a chunky, often "wears large" style of watch. One of my favorite watches is my 36mm Seamaster. There are repeated gripes on this board about lack of selection in the 34-36mm range.

I'd consider either a quartz or auto, but would prefer the latter. Regarding price, search for Abingdon on this forum, and see the backlash they got for pricing their colorful 40mm women's divers at ~$800. https://theabingdonco.com/product-category/dive-watches/

All JMO.


----------



## docvail

katfromTN said:


> I'd lean more towards the steel bezel too, just because you could offer really any color dial option and it would work. I've never really given much thought to weight of a watch but I don't have any that I believe are significantly heavy. Most of my watches I've bought online and never tried them on prior. I can see how a lot more men buy tool watches and therefore I'm sure they've considered weight more than I have. I tend to lean towards a bracelet for the very reason you described, much easier to find a strap for the watch than a bracelet that fits.
> 
> Kudos to your wife, looking back on those Rolex pics, the dark purple/muave color would look great in sunburst with the steel bezel imo.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Honestly, with the number of complaints I've seen from "grown" men (like the weight of the watch), you're way less "high maintenance". I should have been hanging out here a long time ago.

I think she'd still like "pink" better, but selling it as "unisex" would be tougher than if it had a less stereotypical girly color, and I was thinking I could find a color somewhere in that pink-purple range that could go either way, girly or unisex.


----------



## bjjkk

Most women I see on my commute wear a Michele watch my wife included, I was uptown (NYC) recently, and spoted women wearing lots of high end stuff. PP nautilus, Cartier, and a few subs.


----------



## KCZ

bjjkk said:


> Most women I see on my commute wear a Michele watch my wife included, I was uptown (NYC) recently, and spoted women wearing lots of high end stuff. PP nautilus, Cartier, and a few subs.


How is this remotely relevant to the topic under discussion?


----------



## docvail

KCZ said:


> Another woman's opinion...
> 
> I'm totally on board with these ^^^ colors, or red, emerald green, and turquoise. No more pastel blue and pink, which are frequently the only colors offered in women's models (black and white are not colors). The women on this board gripe repeatedly about the lack of color choices in women's watches.
> 
> Momentum used to make their women's 31mm M1 in a rainbow of colors, but have now moved to a 38mm white-faced watch with a colored bezel. I'd love to see those colors again, in a larger size.
> View attachment 13143011
> 
> 
> And God in heaven, don't put white hands on a white face, or blue hands on a blue face, or orange hands on a orange face. How are we supposed to read something like these? Men wouldn't put up with these design flaws, but we're supposed to like them because they're color-coordinated or some other BS.
> 
> Offer a bracelet, +/- rubber strap. Leather is not appropriate for a diver.
> 
> As for size, if this is supposed to be a woman's watch, I'd stick with 36mm. If I wanted a 38mm or 40mm watch, I'd just buy a man's watch. I have a 7 inch wrist and I can't pull off a diver >36mm because this is a chunky, often "wears large" style of watch. One of my favorite watches is my 36mm Seamaster. There are repeated gripes on this board about lack of selection in the 34-36mm range.
> 
> I'd consider either a quartz or auto, but would prefer the latter. Regarding price, search for Abingdon on this forum, and see the backlash they got for pricing their colorful 40mm quartz divers at ~$800. https://theabingdonco.com/product-category/dive-watches/
> 
> All JMO.


I'm leaning towards the mauve for the one colorway, or something like it, and either white, or something like the mauve, but from some other part of the spectrum, for the second version. I'm thinking I'll order 50 pieces of each, 100 total, so we can have them available for the holidays, then still have some for Valentine's, Mothers' day, and graduations in the spring of next year. Best case scenario, we sell through the first 100 before the holidays, and we make more for spring.

I promise I won't do anything really stupid, like illegible hands-dial combos. If I do white-on-white, I'll black out the frames, or figure out how to ensure legibility. It's something we think about when doing designs. We sweat the details.

If I make the bracelet standard, I doubt I'd offer an optional strap as an add-on, unless I could get them with really low MOQ's. Even if I could buy just 50 or 100 straps, maybe 1 in 10 of my customers adds a strap to their watch order. I don't sell a lot of straps. I really only raised the issue of bracelet vs straps to see if women had a strong preference one way or the other, as a group. I'd be more likely to make either a bracelet or a strap standard, without any choice, than to offer a choice of either, or have one as an add-on option.

I don't think stingray would qualify as "leather", and because it comes from a fish, it would seem reasonable on a diver, even if the strap isn't exactly waterproof. Understand that part of my thinking is that some portion of these watches will be owned by women who might appreciate a colorful strap, even if it's leather, more than they appreciate the "more appropriate for a diver" (and heavier) bracelet. Again, I'm thinking of my wife - she's a girly girl, yet I realize that she's only interested in me making a watch because I own a watch company. There's no way in hell she'd be shopping for a $600 automatic otherwise, nor coming here to discuss watches.

Like I said in an earlier post, this will be a version of the 40mm NTH Subs, not a new, clean-slate design for a new model. My business isn't yet large enough for me to feel enthusiastic making smaller case sizes, so I tend to stay within a narrow range of sizes which fit most men's wrists well, 40mm with 48mm lug length being wearable for some women.

Not for nothing, but my wrist is ~7 inches, too. I can pull off a 43mm/44mm with 50mm lug length, and used to think 42mm was perfect, but the 40's have become my most worn size watch.

As for pricing - I'd never gouge the ladies. I hate that $h1t. Unless I have higher costs, the price will be in line with the other NTH Subs models, $600-$625, pending a final production cost, after we spec out the next batch with the upgraded bracelet and clasp. I doubt we'll raise prices above that, and only thought swapping a strap in for the bracelet might drop the price by $50.


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> I'm leaning towards the mauve for the one colorway, or something like it, and either white, or something like the mauve, but from some other part of the spectrum, for the second version. I'm thinking I'll order 50 pieces of each, 100 total, so we can have them available for the holidays, then still have some for Valentine's, Mothers' day, and graduations in the spring of next year. Best case scenario, we sell through the first 100 before the holidays, and we make more for spring.
> 
> I promise I won't do anything really stupid, like illegible hands-dial combos. If I do white-on-white, I'll black out the frames, or figure out how to ensure legibility. It's something we think about when doing designs. We sweat the details.
> 
> If I make the bracelet standard, I doubt I'd offer an optional strap as an add-on, unless I could get them with really low MOQ's. Even if I could buy just 50 or 100 straps, maybe 1 in 10 of my customers adds a strap to their watch order. I don't sell a lot of straps. I really only raised the issue of bracelet vs straps to see if women had a strong preference one way or the other, as a group. I'd be more likely to make either a bracelet or a strap standard, without any choice, than to offer a choice of either, or have one as an add-on option.
> 
> I don't think stingray would qualify as "leather", and because it comes from a fish, it would seem reasonable on a diver, even if the strap isn't exactly waterproof. Understand that part of my thinking is that some portion of these watches will be owned by women who might appreciate a colorful strap, even if it's leather, more than they appreciate the "more appropriate for a diver" (and heavier) bracelet. Again, I'm thinking of my wife - she's a girly girl, yet I realize that she's only interested in me making a watch because I own a watch company. There's no way in hell she'd be shopping for a $600 automatic otherwise, nor coming here to discuss watches.
> 
> Like I said in an earlier post, this will be a version of the 40mm NTH Subs, not a new, clean-slate design for a new model. My business isn't yet large enough for me to feel enthusiastic making smaller case sizes, so I tend to stay within a narrow range of sizes which fit most men's wrists well, 40mm with 48mm lug length being wearable for some women.
> 
> Not for nothing, but my wrist is ~7 inches, too. I can pull off a 43mm/44mm with 50mm lug length, and used to think 42mm was perfect, but the 40's have become my most worn size watch.
> 
> As for pricing - I'd never gouge the ladies. I hate that $h1t. Unless I have higher costs, the price will be in line with the other NTH Subs models, $600-$625, pending a final production cost, after we spec out the next batch with the upgraded bracelet and clasp. I doubt we'll raise prices above that, and only thought swapping a strap in for the bracelet might drop the price by $50.


I think around the $600 mark is doable for sure. I almost spent about that recently on a CW Trident but just wasn't crazy about the color. Very blah imo. I'd be willing to pay that for an auto with the specs you've got in your subs. I've not held one of your watches personally by I know they get great reviews aiming fellow WIS here and FB. As well as the lovely recommendation from TGV. He hasn't steered me wrong yet. Haha!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail

katfromTN said:


> I think around the $600 mark is doable for sure. I almost spent about that recently on a CW Trident but just wasn't crazy about the color. Very blah imo. I'd be willing to pay that for an auto with the specs you've got in your subs. I've not held one of your watches personally by I know they get great reviews aiming fellow WIS here and FB. As well as the lovely recommendation from TGV. He hasn't steered me wrong yet. Haha!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cheers, that's very valuable feedback. One of my lingering concerns was about the price. I wasn't sure how many female WIS would be up for a $600, 40mm diver from a virtually unknown brand, and how many of my male customers who say they want to get their SO's a "real" watch would flinch at spending as much on one as they do on their own watches.

Guys can be funny like that. Even if I have 24 watches, none of which get worn very often, the thought of spending $600 on a watch for my wife, knowing she isn't likely to wear it more than once a week makes my eye twitch.

My reasons for holding off on even considering a ladies/unisex watch for as long as I have were many.

I didn't feel like I had any idea what I could or would make that would appeal to women - my design style might best be described as the horological equivalent of the "power tie" - subtly (or not so subtly) conveying alpha-male status without going full-on shirtless Vladimir Putin. I viewed the ladies watch market as being a mish-mosh of crappy fashion watches (yuck), insanely over-priced luxury brands (yeesh), and, well, you all here, a small group with not well-understood desires, possibly every bit as diverse in its views as the male segment of the market, which is hard enough to figure out, but at least large enough for me to carve out a slice for myself.

Sizing and pricing also loomed large. I can't keep my business efficient selling under $400 watches, and I didn't see how to justify a higher price without the same sort of specs and components my male customers demand, stuff most non-WIS women don't seem to care much about. I have male customers who've pressured me to make a <40mm watch, and I've given them the same explanation - I'm not yet in a position to risk it, and the 40mm Subs have been crushing it. Why fix what ain't broken?

The timing is just better now. I'm getting ready to produce another batch of the Subs, and can carve out a portion of that production to experiment a little. I've noticed more women wearing my watches since we got down to 40mm (not to mention -I still have some who rock the 42mm Orthos or Phantom, God 'bless 'em, and one who likes to wear her husband's 43mm DevilRay). I feel like there are now just enough people aware of who we are and what we're doing to think I can make 50-100 of these and not take a bath on the deal. It helps to see someone here wearing a Nacken, and have no idea who she is, apparently not among my handful of repeat female customers.

Anyhoo...this is all very helpful, so thank you all. Not that I'm signing off, let's keep it going, please, but I already feel like the picture of what I want to do is coming together, whereas two days ago it was just a random assortment of girly styling cues overlaid on the Subs' case.


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> Cheers, that's very valuable feedback. One of my lingering concerns was about the price. I wasn't sure how many female WIS would be up for a $600, 40mm diver from a virtually unknown brand, and how many of my male customers who say they want to get their SO's a "real" watch would flinch at spending as much on one as they do on their own watches.
> 
> Guys can be funny like that. Even if I have 24 watches, none of which get worn very often, the thought of spending $600 on a watch for my wife, knowing she isn't likely to wear it more than once a week makes my eye twitch.
> 
> My reasons for holding off on even considering a ladies/unisex watch for as long as I have were many.
> 
> I didn't feel like I had any idea what I could or would make that would appeal to women - my design style might best be described as the horological equivalent of the "power tie" - subtly (or not so subtly) conveying alpha-male status without going full-on shirtless Vladimir Putin. I viewed the ladies watch market as being a mish-mosh of crappy fashion watches (yuck), insanely over-priced luxury brands (yeesh), and, well, you all here, a small group with not well-understood desires, possibly every bit as diverse in its views as the male segment of the market, which is hard enough to figure out, but at least large enough for me to carve out a slice for myself.
> 
> Sizing and pricing also loomed large. I can't keep my business efficient selling under $400 watches, and I didn't see how to justify a higher price without the same sort of specs and components my male customers demand, stuff most non-WIS women don't seem to care much about. I have male customers who've pressured me to make a <40mm watch, and I've given them the same explanation - I'm not yet in a position to risk it, and the 40mm Subs have been crushing it. Why fix what ain't broken?
> 
> The timing is just better now. I'm getting ready to produce another batch of the Subs, and can carve out a portion of that production to experiment a little. I've noticed more women wearing my watches since we got down to 40mm (not to mention -I still have some who rock the 42mm Orthos or Phantom, God 'bless 'em, and one who likes to wear her husband's 43mm DevilRay). I feel like there are now just enough people aware of who we are and what we're doing to think I can make 50-100 of these and not take a bath on the deal. It helps to see someone here wearing a Nacken, and have no idea who she is, apparently not among my handful of repeat female customers.
> 
> Anyhoo...this is all very helpful, so thank you all. Not that I'm signing off, let's keep it going, please, but I already feel like the picture of what I want to do is coming together, whereas two days ago it was just a random assortment of girly styling cues overlaid on the Subs' case.


Question: Will you continue with the brushed case? Or will there be a polished case? Or perhaps a bit of both? I find that the all brushed cases tend to look more masculine and very "tooly". Whereas the polished appeals to me and more females more due to the shine/elegance it gives off. Thoughts?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail

katfromTN said:


> Question: Will you continue with the brushed case? Or will there be a polished case? Or perhaps a bit of both? I find that the all brushed cases tend to look more masculine and very "tooly". Whereas the polished appeals to me and more females more due to the shine/elegance it gives off. Thoughts?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good question, and I'd meant to include it in the list of considerations/questions.

We can do polished, and early on, my wife had asked about using coatings like PVD to get a color on the steel, though I doubt I'd go there, other than for the bezel insert, for a lot of reasons.

Usually, my rule of thumb with brushed vs polished is like 80-20, or even 90-10. A little polish can go a long way, and punch things up a bit. I like doing polished finishes on smaller and more complex surfaces, typically those with convex curves and sweeping lines, and doing brushed finishes on the larger/simpler forms, like the top of a case and the lugs.

With 316L stainless, too much polish, especially on larger/flatter surfaces, can sometimes cheapen the look. It can end up looking like a bad chrome job. The 904 steel Rolex uses has a higher nickel content, which actually makes the steel softer, but makes it "sparkle" more, hence the coining of the term "bling". With 316, the effect is less sparkly, more reflective, like a polished tea pot or a spoon. This is why I like polish better on curved surfaces. When they're more flat, yet not perfectly flat, it can be a bit like a funhouse mirror. The effect can be jarring to the eye.

With an oyster style bracelet, we could do polished center links, but that's mostly discouraged among my male customers, because of scratches. I personally don't like polished sides on bracelet links, but that's also an option, and people seem to mind it less. Strapcode bracelets have links with polished sides, and I don't see anyone complaining. People love them.

I think brushed is better for the bezel teeth, just for better grip, but we could look at the other surfaces of the case, including the bezel insert itself, which can easily be polished. That's something we've done, with good results, like the Rolex Explorer-type cases. A polished bezel with white-lume markings could be interesting, and I can definitely see how it would make a big difference, compared to a brushed bezel. The brushed keeps it a tool watch, whereas polishing the bezel puts it into "dressy diver" territory, which doesn't seem like a bad thing here.

If you look at the NTH Subs' case, the top surface of the lugs is vertically brushed (lug-to-lug), which blends into the parallel brushing on the end-link, and looks "correct". If we polished that surface, would we also polish the bracelet - like, the whole thing - or leave it brushed, creating a clash of finishes where they meet?

The only surface left on the case is the sides, which we could polish, and might look okay, but I'd wonder if it would blend in with the chamfered ridge that's currently polished, and serves as a character line, sort of like the sharp ridge on the fender of a corvette. It attracts the eye, and accentuates the sleek lines of the case's profile, and its tapered lugs. I wonder if that chamfer would blend in with the sides, making the case look wide in the hips. If we brushed it instead, would it then just blend into the top surface of the lugs, making them look stocky?


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> Good question, and I'd meant to include it in the list of considerations/questions.
> 
> We can do polished, and early on, my wife had asked about using coatings like PVD to get a color on the steel, though I doubt I'd go there, other than for the bezel insert, for a lot of reasons.
> 
> Usually, my rule of thumb with brushed vs polished is like 80-20, or even 90-10. A little polish can go a long way, and punch things up a bit. I like doing polished finishes on smaller and more complex surfaces, typically those with convex curves and sweeping lines, and doing brushed finishes on the larger/simpler forms, like the top of a case and the lugs.
> 
> With 316L stainless, too much polish, especially on larger/flatter surfaces, can sometimes cheapen the look. It can end up looking like a bad chrome job. The 904 steel Rolex uses has a higher nickel content, which actually makes the steel softer, but makes it "sparkle" more, hence the coining of the term "bling". With 316, the effect is less sparkly, more reflective, like a polished tea pot or a spoon. This is why I like polish better on curved surfaces. When they're more flat, yet not perfectly flat, it can be a bit like a funhouse mirror. The effect can be jarring to the eye.
> 
> With an oyster style bracelet, we could do polished center links, but that's mostly discouraged among my male customers, because of scratches. I personally don't like polished sides on bracelet links, but that's also an option, and people seem to mind it less. Strapcode bracelets have links with polished sides, and I don't see anyone complaining. People love them.
> 
> I think brushed is better for the bezel teeth, just for better grip, but we could look at the other surfaces of the case, including the bezel insert itself, which can easily be polished. That's something we've done, with good results, like the Rolex Explorer-type cases. A polished bezel with white-lume markings could be interesting, and I can definitely see how it would make a big difference, compared to a brushed bezel. The brushed keeps it a tool watch, whereas polishing the bezel puts it into "dressy diver" territory, which doesn't seem like a bad thing here.
> 
> If you look at the NTH Subs' case, the top surface of the lugs is vertically brushed (lug-to-lug), which blends into the parallel brushing on the end-link, and looks "correct". If we polished that surface, would we also polish the bracelet - like, the whole thing - or leave it brushed, creating a clash of finishes where they meet?
> 
> The only surface left on the case is the sides, which we could polish, and might look okay, but I'd wonder if it would blend in with the chamfered ridge that's currently polished, and serves as a character line, sort of like the sharp ridge on the fender of a corvette. It attracts the eye, and accentuates the sleek lines of the case's profile, and its tapered lugs. I wonder if that chamfer would blend in with the sides, making the case look wide in the hips. If we brushed it instead, would it then just blend into the top surface of the lugs, making them look stocky?


Hmmm...I'll have to think on that one. I agree it's hard to decide when and where to stop with the polish. I agree too much looks kind of cheap but just a little more I think would give it a little pop. I'll have to look up strapcodes offerings with the polished side links, I haven't seen those yet. I can definitely see how the polish in the center link can be a scratch magnet. I do however love a polished bezel. And I'll reference my favorite Tudor sub below:









I think with even with a more neutral colored dial, the polished bezel will look great and appeal to us women. Just makes it a tad less masculine. But the hard part is fitting in a bracelet that would go well, as your current oysters are all brushed. I'll think on this one!

Edit: with that being said, a nice ceramic bezel would shine it up a bit too and that way you would have to worry so much about the polish on the case and bracelet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sillygoose

docvail said:


> I had't thought about the effect the color of the bezel would have on the perception of the watch's size, but that's a good point, as it may in fact make it look a bit "pie plate". For that reason, and the mention of those Rolexes, as well as that Tudor (and other designs like it) I'm now thinking about keeping the bezel stainless, and just figuring out if one of the colorways should be a white dial, or if I should do two colors, one more lively, one more neutral.
> 
> My wife also likes that mauve (?) dial on the Rolex (I've been keeping her posted, because if I don't, and make something she doesn't like, there will be serious repercussions). She likes white-on-white and pink, so...you understand why those were the two colorways I was thinking about. Maybe she'd be down for a pastel color
> 
> I meant to respond to your point about the strap length, but forgot to.
> 
> The simplest thing for me to do would be to just sell the watch on the same bracelet the other versions will have. It's an oyster style, but we're planning to make some improvements to it for the next round of production (better link articulation, softer edges, convex-curved inner surfaces). That said, one of the improvements is a sturdier, slightly longer (more micro-adjustments), more toolish clasp, so I'd likely see if I could source something different for the bracelet on this version, my first thought being a single-locking butterfly clasp.
> 
> If I can figure out how to offer either a bracelet or the strap(s) as an option people could choose, I'd have to figure out if we should size the strap for "unisex", or "ladies", which is the sort of dilemma I try to avoid. Can I even source a good quality, shorter-length strap with a lower (100 pieces or less) MOQ? I don't know. Sometimes it's easier to avoid bigger MOQ's if you're ordering something stock from a supplier's catalog. I'll have to confirm the length of the straps I was looking at.
> 
> I usually offer watches with bracelets because I figure it's easier for people to find a strap they like than find an aftermarket bracelet to fit right. But since I haven't started production yet, I figured I'd ask about it along with all the others stuff, in case the weight of the assembled watch + bracelet is a concern, especially given the 40mm case, which is lighter than a lot of diving watches, but still, it's solid.
> 
> If I did the white or pink ceramic bezel inlay, I think that might shave a few grams off it, compared to the steel bezel, but I'm leaning more towards the steel, just for long-term durability. Although ceramic is more scratch-resistant, steel is shatterproof, so less concerns about the watch being dropped and cracking the bezel.


The purple Rolex (they call it "grape") is my first choice among those colors too and it seems like there's a consensus among the responses here for that color.

I completely understand your perspective on the strap choices. I'm so used to buying and using my own custom straps that I hardly ever take a watch's provided strap into consideration when purchasing a watch.

As for your remarks concerning more women wearing your watches recently, I think it does help that the sizing of your watches (the Subs line) has been reduced to 40mm. It helps that there's more exposure of your brand too.

One thing I often consider is how a watch would look on my smaller, 5.75" wrist. It's hard to find pictures of watches on a wrist of that size. I admit that my decision to buy a Nacken was based on someone's picture of the vintage blue on their 6" wrist. Otherwise, it feels a bit of a gamble to spend $600 on a watch whose size may or may not work on me. I know I can resell it, but it's a hassle I'm not ready to deal with. As for the DevilRay, that was a watch I took a gamble on with the larger case size and it's worked out. So, just wanted to let you know I'm one of those female customers you've mentioned who's a fan of your company and definitely will be a repeat buyer. 

It's been a pleasure seeing your company grow in recognition (I follow the NTH thread on F71). I'm looking forward to the day when you'll get to the point where you can offer smaller case sizes!

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## docvail

katfromTN said:


> Hmmm...I'll have to think on that one. I agree it's hard to decide when and where to stop with the polish. I agree too much looks kind of cheap but just a little more I think would give it a little pop. I'll have to look up strapcodes offerings with the polished side links, I haven't seen those yet. I can definitely see how the polish in the center link can be a scratch magnet. I do however love a polished bezel. And I'll reference my favorite Tudor sub below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think with even with a more neutral colored dial, the polished bezel will look great and appeal to us women. Just makes it a tad less masculine. But the hard part is fitting in a bracelet that would go well, as your current oysters are all brushed. I'll think on this one!
> 
> Edit: with that being said, a nice ceramic bezel would shine it up a bit too and that way you would have to worry so much about the polish on the case and bracelet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Polishing the bezel is easy enough, and we can still brush the teeth, so that's no problem. I think it's the surface which makes the most sense to use if we want to add some polish. I think the top, sides, and bracelet - at least the outer links - should stay brushed, but we can consider the center-links.

We can do a ceramic bezel, with a polished finish, but then we'd be adding a color, likely white or pink, but black and blue are also possibilities. I think the stainless will be better.

Do you think it would be better to have a simpler clasp, something less toolish than the planned clasp, which will be a sturdy, double-locking folding clasp?


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> Polishing the bezel is easy enough, and we can still brush the teeth, so that's no problem. I think it's the surface which makes the most sense to use if we want to add some polish. I think the top, sides, and bracelet - at least the other links - should stay brushed, but we can consider the center-links.
> 
> We can do a ceramic bezel, with a polished finish, but then we'd be adding a color, likely white or pink, but black and blue are also possibilities. I think the stainless will be better.
> 
> Do you think it would be better to have a simpler clasp, something less toolish than the planned clasp, which will be a sturdy, double-locking folding clasp?


Definitely like your idea to keep the bezel polished. As far as the clasp, I'm not sure, I'd have to see the simpler options. I tend to wear my watches while swimming and it helps me feel like it's more secure when it has the double clasp. May be all in my head as I know there's several high end dive watches that don't have the double clasp.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail

Sillygoose said:


> The purple Rolex (they call it "grape") is my first choice among those colors too and it seems like there's a consensus among the responses here for that color.
> 
> I completely understand your perspective on the strap choices. I'm so used to buying and using my own custom straps that I hardly ever take a watch's provided strap into consideration when purchasing a watch.
> 
> As for your remarks concerning more women wearing your watches recently, I think it does help that the sizing of your watches (the Subs line) has been reduced to 40mm. It helps that there's more exposure of your brand too.
> 
> One thing I often consider is how a watch would look on my smaller, 5.75" wrist. It's hard to find pictures of watches on a wrist of that size. I admit that my decision to buy a Nacken was based on someone's picture of the vintage blue on their 6" wrist. Otherwise, it feels a bit of a gamble to spend $600 on a watch whose size may or may not work on me. I know I can resell it, but it's a hassle I'm not ready to deal with. As for the DevilRay, that was a watch I took a gamble on with the larger case size and it's worked out. So, just wanted to let you know I'm one of those female customers you've mentioned who's a fan of your company and definitely will be a repeat buyer.
> 
> It's been a pleasure seeing your company grow in recognition (I follow the NTH thread on F71). I'm looking forward to the day when you'll get to the point where you can offer smaller case sizes!
> 
> - Tappy Talkied


I may have to measure my wife's wrist, and post pics on our website, showing it on her wrist, once we get samples.

Thanks for your continued support of my business, and buying the DevilRay. Its short lug length, 40mm bezel diameter, and contoured case bottom makes it wear smaller than it looks, but I'm still surprised to see some women wearing them. It's kind of a beast. It's the biggest watch I've made since the 44mm Spectre, which I've only seen worn by one woman.

I'm not real hip to women's fashion, but when it comes to watches, a lot of what I see for women doesn't make much sense to me, because of how small some of the dials are, especially the ones that look more like a bracelet than a watch. How can you read them? They may be pretty, but they don't seem very useful for telling time.

As a man, most women's jewelry just strikes me as decoration, something to make women feel more like women. From our perspective, it's like wallpaper. We see it, but don't really notice it much. It's not what we're looking at, and a lot of times, we think you're wearing it so other women will notice you.

But there's always been an element of intrigue in seeing a woman wear something of a man's, either literally, as in, she's wearing something which belongs to a man, perhaps in some way saying, "what's yours is mine, because you're mine", or figuratively, like a woman's designer tailoring a men's dress shirt to fit a woman, and pairing it with a business skirt (sexy as hell, but maybe I'm weird).

I think there's something about women doing that which conveys a sense of confidence/aggression more typical of a man, and men notice that, because it breaks the demure archetype. We like it, perhaps because it sends a signal you might understand us better, allowing us to be ourselves more.

I think Jennifer Aniston is gorgeous, and she's been photographed looking gorgeous, wearing countless gowns and such, but when GQ did a photo shoot of her in her prime, at age 43, an age when a woman can no longer pretend to be a girl, and is hopefully confident in who she is as a woman, they gave her a man's dress shirt, hat, and necktie - even a pair of men's briefs (and a Rolex Milgauss, 40mm). She worked it all like she owned it.









I think if a woman is going to wear a man's watch (or "man's size"), you just need to embrace the fact that it's a man's watch, and own it. As I type this, I'm watching a woman on the news, wearing a larger watch, and it's the one thing she's wearing that attracts my attention and interest. Okay, I make watches, so maybe that's part of it, but I think it's also because I'm a man, and it's intriguing. She strikes me as confident and assertive. Is that my imagination? Maybe, but maybe it's something she conveys because it's real, and her "power watch" is just another expression of that, or perhaps even something which helps her feel that way.


----------



## docvail

@Sillygoose, @katfromTN, and @KCZ - 

I'm SO sorry if you just got a half dozen PM's from me. I went to look in my sent items folder, didn't see any of the PM's I sent, and assumed it was another of the many forum software issues we've seen recently. 

But when I checked my user settings, I saw that for some reason, they were set to NOT save a copy of sent messages. I can't remember if or why I'd set them up that way, so I toggled that off, and re-sent the message, only to realize I didn't click "save" on the new settings, so...I still have no idea if you even got the message, and gave up trying.

If you got it, now you know why you got it so many times. If you didn't, please shoot me a PM, and I'll resend it to you. 

Otherwise, I'm going to give up trying to correctly use the forum today. Clearly I'm failing at "basic functions".


----------



## Sillygoose

@docvail: just confirming that I've gotten the (multiple ) PMs. Thanks for taking the time to reach out to us!

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## mrs_LA

Is it too late to hop in on the discussion? I just discovered this thread (Tapatalk still confuses me) and am excited by what I’ve read through so far but it seems like the women in this thread have chimed in their opinions not too distant from mine. I’m actually looking forward to see what you come up with, Doc. Just getting to know your micro brand now and looking into it, thanks to this thread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Drewdoog

The biggest problems I have found with microbrands and ladies watches is the bracelets. I have always found that no matter how well your reputation is for mens watches, womens watches always come with cheap bracelets without solid end links. I am not talking about bracelets with folded links. Those are almost unheard of these days, but pressed clasps and folded end links are common. 
Bernhardt watches for example are known for the quality of the bracelets, but the womens bracelets are all junk. Why even offer a junk bracelet just to say it has one? Put it on leather. 
I also don't think crystals on the bezel or dial will do. The blinged out crystal look has been played to death. polishing of parts can give you the same effect. So my say is:
-No crystals. Use effective polishing of stainless (maybe an entire case?)
-Quality bracelets. If the creation of a bracelet is an afterthought, don't offer it. Maybe throw it on a high quality, water resistant leather strap.
-Pastel colors. 
-Don't go too small. Nickle size watches are for your grandmas jewelry box but serve no real function. 30-36mm=good


----------



## Sussa

Shoot, I didn't even know we had a Ladies' forum until Kat mentioned it in an f2 thread, and Doc's over here actually asking for opinions.

For the love of all that's holy, please don't use crystals for hour markers. I have a 38mm Melbourne Collins instead of the 34mm I really wanted because it came with gemstone hour markers. 

I love the look of the Santa Cruz and have casually browsed for one pre-owned. Not sure if a sub is really my style though, so take the rest of my comments for what you will. I don't mind a somewhat bulky dive watch. In fact, I expect it. With a 40mm case and 11mm thickness, I don't know that the Santa Cruz is that far off from what I would buy if I were seriously looking for a sub. You'd have to get down to 34-36mm for the difference in size to really start to move the needle, and I completely understand why that may not be a sound business decision. 

Personally, I don't wear a bracelet very often, but this may be because most of my watches with bracelets are already pretty hefty (Orange Monster, SNZH55). I have to be aiming for a more masculine/tomboy look to wear those bracelets. However, my 34mm Hamilton Jazzmaster lives on the bracelet and doesn't look right on leather. I typically wear divers on a NATO, leather, or cork. I'll echo the earlier sentiment about considering the strap length. I assume that any OEM strap will need an extra hole punched to fit my 6.5" wrist. Again, I understand if trying to accommodate this is not a sound business decision. Is offering just the head a possibility, or logistics nightmare? I've got a ton of straps, and if I can save a few bucks and not buy a strap that won't fit anyway, I'm all for it. 

I don't envy you trying to choose colors. I'm not a fan of pink or salmon, or mother of pearl, but that's just me. Pastel blue or mint green would be nice, but I also wouldn't shy away from the purple Rolex posted earlier. Your sunburst dials look great, and I love the way the sun plays with my Fireball Spectre.

Automatic vs. quartz: At your price point, I wouldn't even consider a quartz. Women who are going to be okay with a microbrand diver are also probably going to be okay with an auto. I prefer a date, but it's not a dealbreaker. 

Thank you for asking our opinion, and for telling the dudes to sit down and shut up. That alone cracked my wallet open a smidge. I'm excited to see what you come up with.


----------



## docvail

So...stuff...

As is so often the case, I'm trying to perfectly thread the needle to achieve a goal. The goal here is sales (duh), as many as I can get, as quickly as I can get them (double-duh).

More and quicker sales is generally the result of making something a lot of people will view as a compelling value proposition, which generally comes down to design and price (or, more specifically, value, what watch-geeks generally measure in bang-for-the-buck).

The challenge here is that the female portion of the watch-geek segment of the market is smaller - much smaller - than the male portion, and that my brand currently has almost no penetration with the female segment.

My thinking was to come up with something that would appeal to female WIS (bring some new WIS customers in!), but also appeal to the non-WIS females known to my male customers (give my male WIS customers that "real" watch to buy their wives/girlfriends/daughters).

Basically, the challenge was to create a design which would appeal equally to both female WIS and my wife (and other wives), and be perceived as a good value by both female WIS and my male customers.

I think we did that. I took design input from both people here, and people not here. My wife, Rusty's wife, Aaron's wife, and my marketing guy's wife all like what we came up with, and so have all the other women I've shown. I think we got just the right amount of bling, in just the right way, and came up with something less toolish, less "Butch", but without being too "girly".

So...we'll see how this goes. I asked my factory to make them as part of the next production, for delivery in October/November. I've asked Rusty to gin up the 3D renders. I'm not sure when we'll reveal the designs publicly. I'm trying to get away from doing pre-orders, so we'll either begin sales when we have them in stock, or perhaps we might start taking pre-sales when we get closer to that date.

Again, I sincerely appreciate the help and input from everyone, and I hope you like what you'll see soon enough.


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> So...stuff...
> 
> As is so often the case, I'm trying to perfectly thread the needle to achieve a goal. The goal here is sales (duh), as many as I can get, as quickly as I can get them (double-duh).
> 
> More and quicker sales is generally the result of making something a lot of people will view as a compelling value proposition, which generally comes down to design and price (or, more specifically, value, what watch-geeks generally measure in bang-for-the-buck).
> 
> The challenge here is that the female portion of the watch-geek segment of the market is smaller - much smaller - than the male portion, and that my brand currently has almost no penetration with the female segment.
> 
> My thinking was to come up with something that would appeal to female WIS (bring some new WIS customers in!), but also appeal to the non-WIS females known to my male customers (give my male WIS customers that "real" watch to buy their wives/girlfriends/daughters).
> 
> Basically, the challenge was to create a design which would appeal equally to both female WIS and my wife (and other wives), and be perceived as a good value by both female WIS and my male customers.
> 
> I think we did that. I took design input from both people here, and people not here. My wife, Rusty's wife, Aaron's wife, and my marketing guy's wife all like what we came up with, and so have all the other women I've shown. I think we got just the right amount of bling, in just the right way, and came up with something less toolish, less "Butch", but without being too "girly".
> 
> So...we'll see how this goes. I asked my factory to make them as part of the next production, for delivery in October/November. I've asked Rusty to gin up the 3D renders. I'm not sure when we'll reveal the designs publicly. I'm trying to get away from doing pre-orders, so we'll either begin sales when we have them in stock, or perhaps we might start taking pre-sales when we get closer to that date.
> 
> Again, I sincerely appreciate the help and input from everyone, and I hope you like what you'll see soon enough.


Can't wait Doc, just in time for Christmas!

Edit: And thanks again for asking us girlies our opinions. I think you did really well with this one and it will appeal to the masses as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mrs_LA

Too late after all, but very confident with Kat and Sillygoose's input.

Very good opinions in this thread. If anything I believe the only hindrance to most women here would be the size, and I also understand where you come from from a business standpoint. Excited to see what you come up with, Doc.



Sussa said:


> Thank you for asking our opinion, and for telling the dudes to sit down and shut up.


Lol! I didn't want to say this, but that was great.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KCZ

I would also like to add my thanks to the OP for asking for our opinions (and for telling the dudes to shut up). I liked the things I saw in your PM, and when your business model allows you to make some 36mm versions, I'll be all over that not-white watch. :-!


----------



## docvail

Just so I'm clear - telling my fellow men to shut up is an easy way to score points with the ladies?

Ahma have to remember that...


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> So...stuff...
> 
> As is so often the case, I'm trying to perfectly thread the needle to achieve a goal. The goal here is sales (duh), as many as I can get, as quickly as I can get them (double-duh).
> 
> More and quicker sales is generally the result of making something a lot of people will view as a compelling value proposition, which generally comes down to design and price (or, more specifically, value, what watch-geeks generally measure in bang-for-the-buck).
> 
> The challenge here is that the female portion of the watch-geek segment of the market is smaller - much smaller - than the male portion, and that my brand currently has almost no penetration with the female segment.
> 
> My thinking was to come up with something that would appeal to female WIS (bring some new WIS customers in!), but also appeal to the non-WIS females known to my male customers (give my male WIS customers that "real" watch to buy their wives/girlfriends/daughters).
> 
> Basically, the challenge was to create a design which would appeal equally to both female WIS and my wife (and other wives), and be perceived as a good value by both female WIS and my male customers.
> 
> I think we did that. I took design input from both people here, and people not here. My wife, Rusty's wife, Aaron's wife, and my marketing guy's wife all like what we came up with, and so have all the other women I've shown. I think we got just the right amount of bling, in just the right way, and came up with something less toolish, less "Butch", but without being too "girly".
> 
> So...we'll see how this goes. I asked my factory to make them as part of the next production, for delivery in October/November. I've asked Rusty to gin up the 3D renders. I'm not sure when we'll reveal the designs publicly. I'm trying to get away from doing pre-orders, so we'll either begin sales when we have them in stock, or perhaps we might start taking pre-sales when we get closer to that date.
> 
> Again, I sincerely appreciate the help and input from everyone, and I hope you like what you'll see soon enough.


Curious why you're wanting to do away with doing pre-orders Doc?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa

docvail said:


> Just so I'm clear - telling my fellow men to shut up is an easy way to score points with the ladies?


Asking a woman's opinion and being adamant that she have the space to give it = major brownie points.


----------



## BillSWPA

docvail said:


> So...stuff...
> 
> As is so often the case, I'm trying to perfectly thread the needle to achieve a goal. The goal here is sales (duh), as many as I can get, as quickly as I can get them (double-duh).
> 
> More and quicker sales is generally the result of making something a lot of people will view as a compelling value proposition, which generally comes down to design and price (or, more specifically, value, what watch-geeks generally measure in bang-for-the-buck).
> 
> The challenge here is that the female portion of the watch-geek segment of the market is smaller - much smaller - than the male portion, and that my brand currently has almost no penetration with the female segment.
> 
> My thinking was to come up with something that would appeal to female WIS (bring some new WIS customers in!), but also appeal to the non-WIS females known to my male customers (give my male WIS customers that "real" watch to buy their wives/girlfriends/daughters).
> 
> Basically, the challenge was to create a design which would appeal equally to both female WIS and my wife (and other wives), and be perceived as a good value by both female WIS and my male customers.
> 
> I think we did that. I took design input from both people here, and people not here. My wife, Rusty's wife, Aaron's wife, and my marketing guy's wife all like what we came up with, and so have all the other women I've shown. I think we got just the right amount of bling, in just the right way, and came up with something less toolish, less "Butch", but without being too "girly".
> 
> So...we'll see how this goes. I asked my factory to make them as part of the next production, for delivery in October/November. I've asked Rusty to gin up the 3D renders. I'm not sure when we'll reveal the designs publicly. I'm trying to get away from doing pre-orders, so we'll either begin sales when we have them in stock, or perhaps we might start taking pre-sales when we get closer to that date.
> 
> Again, I sincerely appreciate the help and input from everyone, and I hope you like what you'll see soon enough.


I wonder whether lack of offerings that seriously take female preferences into account leads to the lack of female interest, or the lack of female interest leads to the lack of offerings? If the former, hopefully this project is a good way to change that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mrs_LA

docvail said:


> Just so I'm clear - telling my fellow men to shut up is an easy way to score points with the ladies?
> 
> Ahma have to remember that...


Not even an issue of gender. A basic principle of keeping opinions to themselves instead of asserting them on others.



BillSWPA said:


> I wonder whether lack of offerings that seriously take female preferences into account leads to the lack of female interest, or the lack of female interest leads to the lack of offerings? If the former, hopefully this project is a good way to change that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Chicken or egg question, I think. And regardless of answer, I agree. Unfortunately most offerings are just what was described by the women in this thread as something they DON'T want (blingy, fashion-y, etc.), so most women result to wearing men's watches (myself included). I am happy that a lot of companies like Rolex are gearing towards "unisex" sizes/colors and labels for their watches, rather than just specifically men's and ladies' watches. 36mm DJ appeal to both. But yes, there is a lack of these offerings in sporty watches.


----------



## docvail

katfromTN said:


> Curious why you're wanting to do away with doing pre-orders Doc?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A mix of reasons.

I'm trying to build out a network of retail partners, primarily overseas. When I do discounted pre-orders, it can seem like maybe I'm soaking up most of the market demand early, and leaving them with the tougher task of selling the last of the inventory at full price.

When I do discounted pre-orders, a lot of the people who buy them will end up selling them soon after we deliver, for not much more than they paid, which hurts resale values, and brand image.

Pre-orders create a good bit of extra work for me. When you buy from my existing inventory, you go through checkout, and the watch ships. Easy. When you buy today, and I don't deliver for months, I have to provide you with periodic updates, you get upset if we have delays, I get people who move, but don't update us with their new address, etc, etc, etc.

When I started, pre-orders were just necessary. I couldn't afford not to do them. But as my business has grown, I've been saving money, and been getting better at managing cash flow in such a way that pre-orders aren't as necessary, if they're necessary at all. I'm testing the waters now, to see how things go.

I used to use pre-orders to judge how many of each version of a new model I should make, but experience has shown that doesn't entirely avoid "lopsided inventory". Meanwhile, my factory and I have come to an understanding that a lot of the problems I've had stemmed from making 20 of this, 30 of that, instead of making at least 50 of each version. So doing pre-orders doesn't have the same value it once did, as a means of defining what we'll produce.

I just passed the 5-year mark. There was a time when I wasn't sure about what I was doing. I'm fairly sure I know what I'm doing now (most days).

We've got a batch of Subs in assembly right now. These are the last of the first 1000 pieces we made, back in 2016, but have been assembling in chunks since then. I already paid most of the production costs on them, long ago, so pre-orders now are really not about the money. I'm only thinking about opening up "pre-sales" because every week I get a dozen emails from guys trying to crawl up my a$$ looking for hidden inventory, or asking when I'll shut up and take their money for the next batch.

A lot of what I do is just an effort to make the emails stop, so I can work, and focus on what I should be doing - product development.


----------



## docvail

BillSWPA said:


> I wonder whether lack of offerings that seriously take female preferences into account leads to the lack of female interest, or the lack of female interest leads to the lack of offerings? If the former, hopefully this project is a good way to change that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've long suspected the differential in the size of the male vs female segments of the market was largely a function of fundamental differences between the sexes.

Guys don't typically wear a lot of jewelry (or at least, we shouldn't - looking at you, Johnny Depp). The "acceptable grown-up man uniform" is business casual, wedding ring, watch. That's it. Unless you won the Superbowl or World Series, leave the big ego class rings in the drawer.

Guys also tend to be more enthralled with mechanical gizmos. We like to know how things work, I guess so we can impress women by showing them we know how things work. I don't know if women really care. My wife often doesn't even believe the things I tell her about how things work, much less care. But I think mechanical watches appeal to men in a way that many women (non WIS women) just don't give a crap about.

So...take male ego and need to demonstrate virility, add an instinctive interest in mechanical gizmos, and limit our ability to spread our feathers like a peacock to one or two simple adornments - you get a big male WIS market. We all want to be James Bond or Jason Bourne, or Dirk Pitt. Gotta have the right watch for espionage, or treasure-hunting, or whatever.

Women (non WIS) tend to look at watches like they're just another piece of jewelry. Jewelry can be junk or nice. So you get Cartier Tanks (nice), and tortoise-shell Michael Kors (junk).

I've hesitated on making a woman's/unisex watch because I didn't see opportunity for success in either of those worlds (Cartier vs MK), and only got here now because I think there are enough female WIS, combined with enough male WIS who'll get one for their wives, combined with some retail partners who agree there's opportunity, and like what we're doing.

I have no idea how this will turn out. Maybe I'm starting something that will become a real thing - micros with unisex/ladies models. Maybe this is a bad idea, or will just be "meh". We'll see over the next 12 months. If I can sell 100 pieces, I'll make more. If not, then screw this, I'm out. Back to making watches for guys who want to be Dirk Pitt.


----------



## katfromTN

docvail said:


> A mix of reasons.
> 
> I'm trying to build out a network of retail partners, primarily overseas. When I do discounted pre-orders, it can seem like maybe I'm soaking up most of the market demand early, and leaving them with the tougher task of selling the last of the inventory at full price.
> 
> When I do discounted pre-orders, a lot of the people who buy them will end up selling them soon after we deliver, for not much more than they paid, which hurts resale values, and brand image.
> 
> Pre-orders create a good bit of extra work for me. When you buy from my existing inventory, you go through checkout, and the watch ships. Easy. When you buy today, and I don't deliver for months, I have to provide you with periodic updates, you get upset if we have delays, I get people who move, but don't update us with their new address, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> When I started, pre-orders were just necessary. I couldn't afford not to do them. But as my business has grown, I've been saving money, and been getting better at managing cash flow in such a way that pre-orders aren't as necessary, if they're necessary at all. I'm testing the waters now, to see how things go.
> 
> I used to use pre-orders to judge how many of each version of a new model I should make, but experience has shown that doesn't entirely avoid "lopsided inventory". Meanwhile, my factory and I have come to an understanding that a lot of the problems I've had stemmed from making 20 of this, 30 of that, instead of making at least 50 of each version. So doing pre-orders doesn't have the same value it once did, as a means of defining what we'll produce.
> 
> I just passed the 5-year mark. There was a time when I wasn't sure about what I was doing. I'm fairly sure I know what I'm doing now (most days).
> 
> We've got a batch of Subs in assembly right now. These are the last of the first 1000 pieces we made, back in 2016, but have been assembling in chunks since then. I already paid most of the production costs on them, long ago, so pre-orders now are really not about the money. I'm only thinking about opening up "pre-sales" because every week I get a dozen emails from guys trying to crawl up my a$$ looking for hidden inventory, or asking when I'll shut up and take their money for the next batch.
> 
> A lot of what I do is just an effort to make the emails stop, so I can work, and focus on what I should be doing - product development.


Thanks for the answer, I was pretty curious as I know your company has done well in the past with some of the pre-sales but I very much see your point from your side of things. Very insightful. Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Solace

Hey Doc! :]

Back when the Orthos was in preorder I jumped on it. (Lost my username and all that fun jazz, but I asked for a picture of your wife wearing a prototype.) Later, I made the decision to back out. Still regretting that, and may eventually grab a used one. 

Point of this- I'm happy to know you're looking into a watch for us females, or a more unisex watch. I'm good with 40mm, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you've come up with later this year. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail

Solace said:


> Hey Doc! :]
> 
> Back when the Orthos was in preorder I jumped on it. (Lost my username and all that fun jazz, but I asked for a picture of your wife wearing a prototype.) Later, I made the decision to back out. Still regretting that, and may eventually grab a used one.
> 
> Point of this- I'm happy to know you're looking into a watch for us females, or a more unisex watch. I'm good with 40mm, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you've come up with later this year.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I remember that. Thankfully, my wife still doesn't have man-hands.

Eeewww.


----------



## dmaria1120

Hi Doc,
First, Thank You, for thinking of us ladies! I currently own two microbrands which I love and wear all the time, a Martenero and Wilks Watchworks. Here is my honest female opinion. Price range of $500 - $600 is fine as long as it's a mechanical watch. Please no bling, pink, baby blue, or quartz. I really like the Salmon Dial that KatfromTN recommended. It's colorful and classy at the same time. I would prefer a stainless steel bracelet in that price range. My ideal size is 36-38, however my Wilks is a 40 and I can pull it off because it's feminine looking. I also feel like a 40 dive watch is going to look and feel heavy for most females. I'm looking forward to seeing what you design and would definitely pre-order. Good Luck! Denise


----------



## docvail

I've been doing nothing but thinking about the ladies since I turned 13. 

True story.


----------



## docvail

Talking about this stuff again recently made me come back and skim the thread from beginning to end, which made me realize I may have neglected to respond to a few people's comments.

So, in no particular order...

It's not quartz.

It's not mother of pearl.

There will be no jeweled markers or jeweled anything. No bedazzling will happen.

We'll be using the same bracelet and clasp as the other NTH Subs, which we're actually improving for this next production. It will have solid end-links, better articulation in all the other links (better articulation = more comfortable fit), and more micro-adjustments in the clasp. We're also changing the link profile shape, by giving the links a curved inner surface, which I think will also increase comfort, and we've requested softer finishing of the links' edges, having heard complaints about how sharp they can be.

The trade off will be that the bracelet makes the watch heavier than a strap would, and while I think the new clasp is a big improvement over the old, it's just a tad thicker, and more micro-adjustments means it's a little longer, both of which make it more toolish, which may lower some women's enthusiasm for the whole package.

Without wanting to get too deep into the weeds here, I considered trying to find some "better" (read: "less toolish") bracelet, or a different clasp, but decided against it, primarily because minimum order quantities for that stuff are usually 300 pieces, and we've only committed to making 100 of the unisex designs. 

Even if I just wanted to do a difference clasp, like a single-locking butterfly clasp, we'd need to retro-fit it to the bracelet, which requires a bit of redesigning, and I didn't have the bandwidth to get into all that on a short timeline. I wanted to have this ready for the Holidays.

We're also not offering any optional strap, also because of the MOQ's involved. I have to buy 300 pieces per style/color. Didn't want to get into that for 100 watches.

My hope is female buyers will either like the bracelet well enough, or won't be too put out finding an alternative they like better.

Colors - uhm...I kind of hate discussing colors online, because we all perceive them individually, and those perceptions are often skewed by monitor calibrations, a camera's ability to render colors correctly, and lighting conditions. 

We'll illustrate them the best we can, but it would be awesome if people would reserve final judgment until we finish production and can show what they look like in real life. 

We're doing color fade (what some call "fume") dials. The effect is achieved with air-brushing. Not only is it impossible for us to know for certain if our illustrations will prove perfectly accurate, each dial is unique, because they're done by hand, one at a time, and it's difficult for the illustration software to illustrate gradients effectively. Reality usually looks better than the illustrations.

That said, we went with one neutral color, and another color that isn't really what people are probably going to call it, but will probably be seen as sort of girly.


----------



## docvail

Talking about this stuff again recently made me come back and skim the thread from beginning to end, which made me realize I may have neglected to respond to a few people's comments.

So, in no particular order...

It's not quartz.

It's not mother of pearl.

There will be no jeweled markers or jeweled anything. No bedazzling will happen.

We'll be using the same bracelet and clasp as the other NTH Subs, which we're actually improving for this next production. It will have solid end-links, better articulation in all the other links (better articulation = more comfortable fit), and more micro-adjustments in the clasp. We're also changing the link profile shape, by giving the links a curved inner surface, which I think will also increase comfort, and we've requested softer finishing of the links' edges, having heard complaints about how sharp they can be.

The trade off will be that the bracelet makes the watch heavier than a strap would, and while I think the new clasp is a big improvement over the old, it's just a tad thicker, and more micro-adjustments means it's a little longer, both of which make it more toolish, which may lower some women's enthusiasm for the whole package.

Without wanting to get too deep into the weeds here, I considered trying to find some "better" (read: "less toolish") bracelet, or a different clasp, but decided against it, primarily because minimum order quantities for that stuff are usually 300 pieces, and we've only committed to making 100 of the unisex designs. 

Even if I just wanted to do a difference clasp, like a single-locking butterfly clasp, we'd need to retro-fit it to the bracelet, which requires a bit of redesigning, and I didn't have the bandwidth to get into all that on a short timeline. I wanted to have this ready for the Holidays.

We're also not offering any optional strap, also because of the MOQ's involved. I have to buy 300 pieces per style/color. Didn't want to get into that for 100 watches.

My hope is female buyers will either like the bracelet well enough, or won't be too put out finding an alternative they like better.

Colors - uhm...I kind of hate discussing colors online, because we all perceive them individually, and those perceptions are often skewed by monitor calibrations, a camera's ability to render colors correctly, and lighting conditions. 

We'll illustrate them the best we can, but it would be awesome if people would reserve final judgment until we finish production and can show what they look like in real life. 

We're doing color fade (what some call "fume") dials. The effect is achieved with air-brushing. Not only is it impossible for us to know for certain if our illustrations will prove perfectly accurate, each dial is unique, because they're done by hand, one at a time, and it's difficult for the illustration software to illustrate gradients effectively. Reality usually looks better than the illustrations.

That said, we went with one neutral color, and another color that isn't really what people are probably going to call it, but will probably be seen as sort of girly.


----------



## yankeexpress

Doc has competition

https://www.watchuseek.com/f408/eterna-lady-kontiki-diver-4731373.html




























Serious competition....I want one of these.....for me. Looks like polished bronze.


----------



## katfromTN

yankeexpress said:


> Doc has competition
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f408/eterna-lady-kontiki-diver-4731373.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Serious competition....I want one of these.....for me. Looks like polished bronze.


I've seen what Doc is cooking up. There's no competition from my perspective. Nice watch, but diamonds/bling are a no for me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa

Take away the bling and rotate the 3 and 9 markers to be upright and the white dial/white bezel combo wouldn't be half bad. But those diamonds are a deal breaker. Eterna has done it right in the past (with quartz):


----------



## dmaria1120

Doc, I can't wait to see it! Please have your wife model it and post it to the ladies forum when it's ready. I don't want to miss it!


----------



## BillSWPA

Those Eternas look quite nice, and appear to be along the lines of the feedback Doc received. However, when considering price, they appear to be directed towards a different market segment.

I had not known about Eterna before seeing this. They have some other offerings that I think my wife might like.


----------



## BillSWPA

Double post.


----------



## KCZ

I quite like that first Eterna (bling doesn't spook me, LOL) but 38mm is just too big. I'm out.


----------



## katfromTN

KCZ said:


> I quite like that first Eterna (bling doesn't spook me, LOL) but 38mm is just too big. I'm out.


38 is too big? You must have tiny wrist!! Haha. Heads up, on a lot of these divers they were a bit smaller due to the smaller face. I can actually pull off a 42 diver as long as the lugs aren't super long.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KCZ

katfromTN said:


> 38 is too big? You must have tiny wrist!! Haha. Heads up, on a lot of these divers they were a bit smaller due to the smaller face. I can actually pull off a 42 diver as long as the lugs aren't super long.


Actually, my wrist is not tiny. After 3 wrist and hand surgeries in the past several years, it's now 7 1/8". But if I wear a watch >36mm, I feel like I've got an albatross attached to me rather than a wrist watch. Maybe I could get away with a 38mm dress watch, although I doubt it, but definitely not a diver. And I hate the look of the lugs overhanging my wrist, which seems to be so popular these days.


----------



## katfromTN

KCZ said:


> Actually, my wrist is not tiny. After 3 wrist and hand surgeries in the past several years, it's now 7 1/8". But if I wear a watch >36mm, I feel like I've got an albatross attached to me rather than a wrist watch. Maybe I could get away with a 38mm dress watch, although I doubt it, but definitely not a diver. And I hate the look of the lugs overhanging my wrist, which seems to be so popular these days.


That's understandable. I think part of me has gotten used to wearing the bigger sized watches >37mm but I forget that not too long ago I wouldn't wear anything that big. It's a preference thing for sure and you definitely have to feel comfortable wearing it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail

Welp, today was the big reveal...

































Both the magenta and shimmering white versions of the Dolphin will be available as either a no-date or with date (at 6).

Not really meant as a ladies/unisex model, but as long as I'm here, I figure muh lady friends may also like the Holland, a no-date only model we're making for exclusive sale through Serious Watches in the Netherlands...









These will all be ready to ship in October(ish).

Also, about those changes to the bracelet/clasp -









Thanks again for everyone's input. Hope you like what you see. Please wish me luck!


----------



## Dynamite Kid19

That black bezel and silver dial is pretty sharp. If I wasn't stretched on other pieces I'd be on it. Good luck!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail

Dynamite Kid19 said:


> That black bezel and silver dial is pretty sharp. If I wasn't stretched on other pieces I'd be on it. Good luck!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Thanks, but the bezel isn't black, just stainless.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## katfromTN

Sweet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dynamite Kid19

docvail said:


> Thanks, but the bezel isn't black, just stainless.
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


Still rocks hard. Love the dial markers and hand set. New class and tapering bracelet look great too.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## guspech750

docvail said:


> Welp, today was the big reveal...
> 
> View attachment 13371825
> 
> 
> View attachment 13371827
> 
> 
> View attachment 13371829
> 
> 
> View attachment 13371831
> 
> 
> Both the magenta and shimmering white versions of the Dolphin will be available as either a no-date or with date (at 6).
> 
> Not really meant as a ladies/unisex model, but as long as I'm here, I figure muh lady friends may also like the Holland, a no-date only model we're making for exclusive sale through Serious Watches in the Netherlands...
> 
> View attachment 13371833
> 
> 
> These will all be ready to ship in October(ish).
> 
> Also, about those changes to the bracelet/clasp -
> 
> View attachment 13371835
> 
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's input. Hope you like what you see. Please wish me luck!


Oh wow! Simply put, they look amazing.

Sent from the White House on the tax payers dime.


----------



## BillSWPA

Although I am not the target market, I think they all look nice, and am most drawn to the top photo.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## studiompd

Congrats on the newest release, they look great! Any link or info on the specs/dims/pricing?


----------



## docvail

studiompd said:


> Congrats on the newest release, they look great! Any link or info on the specs/dims/pricing?


They're not on our website yet, as we're re-doing our website.

They're NTH Subs, so same specs/dimensions as the other NTH Subs.

Pricing on all NTH Subs is going up by $25 across the board, so these will be $650.


----------



## docvail

Oh, the irony...


__
http://instagr.am/p/BmPm5pon53I/

"What is up with marketing watches as 'for women'!? When will we (as a community) stop alienating women by relegating alternate designs that use flashy colours, or shiny bits like jewels, to be 'for them'. The newly announced NTH sub versions may be marketed as 'unisex', but considering it is the same case, bezel, and bracelet as they have always used, this is simply them saying that these are new 'womens' versions.

Why is the assumption made that women don't want a blue or black dial, and would only want a purple or white dial?

Big brands have been doing this forever, taking existing designs, adding jewels or bright colours to 'feminize' them, and then marketing them for women. It's an out-dated marketing approach that marginalizes women by making assumptions and conveying the message that women can't like the same watches as men.

Shrinking sizes is acceptable, both men and women can have smaller wrists. But let's start working to change the assumptions within this industry when it comes to women, and that they all only want purple or jewels in their watches. For that matter, lets start changing the assumptions that men, or any other gender, doesn't want a purple watch!"


----------



## BillSWPA

docvail said:


> Oh, the irony...
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BmPm5pon53I/
> 
> "What is up with marketing watches as 'for women'!? When will we (as a community) stop alienating women by relegating alternate designs that use flashy colours, or shiny bits like jewels, to be 'for them'. The newly announced NTH sub versions may be marketed as 'unisex', but considering it is the same case, bezel, and bracelet as they have always used, this is simply them saying that these are new 'womens' versions.
> 
> Why is the assumption made that women don't want a blue or black dial, and would only want a purple or white dial?
> 
> Big brands have been doing this forever, taking existing designs, adding jewels or bright colours to 'feminize' them, and then marketing them for women. It's an out-dated marketing approach that marginalizes women by making assumptions and conveying the message that women can't like the same watches as men.
> 
> Shrinking sizes is acceptable, both men and women can have smaller wrists. But let's start working to change the assumptions within this industry when it comes to women, and that they all only want purple or jewels in their watches. For that matter, lets start changing the assumptions that men, or any other gender, doesn't want a purple watch!"
> 
> View attachment 13377483


I assume this author doesn't realize that you actually asked women what they want.

- - - Updated - - -



docvail said:


> Oh, the irony...
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BmPm5pon53I/
> 
> "What is up with marketing watches as 'for women'!? When will we (as a community) stop alienating women by relegating alternate designs that use flashy colours, or shiny bits like jewels, to be 'for them'. The newly announced NTH sub versions may be marketed as 'unisex', but considering it is the same case, bezel, and bracelet as they have always used, this is simply them saying that these are new 'womens' versions.
> 
> Why is the assumption made that women don't want a blue or black dial, and would only want a purple or white dial?
> 
> Big brands have been doing this forever, taking existing designs, adding jewels or bright colours to 'feminize' them, and then marketing them for women. It's an out-dated marketing approach that marginalizes women by making assumptions and conveying the message that women can't like the same watches as men.
> 
> Shrinking sizes is acceptable, both men and women can have smaller wrists. But let's start working to change the assumptions within this industry when it comes to women, and that they all only want purple or jewels in their watches. For that matter, lets start changing the assumptions that men, or any other gender, doesn't want a purple watch!"
> 
> View attachment 13377483


I assume this author doesn't realize that you actually asked women what they want.


----------



## docvail

BillSWPA said:


> I assume this author doesn't realize that you actually asked women what they want.


Apparently not.


----------



## KCZ

I assume the author also doesn't realize that women's watches (except for fashion models) are almost never offered in "bright colours." Hello, maybe women don't want blue or black dials because we're sick of them. Just show me the women's non-fashion models available in the US in orange, yellow, green, turquoise/teal, red, or purple. The only company that has any significant offerings is Rolex, and many women cannot afford that price point. He needs to confine his reviews to topics on which he has some actual knowledge and quit trying to confine women to conservatively coloured watches.


----------



## docvail

KCZ said:


> I assume the author also doesn't realize that women's watches (except for fashion models) are almost never offered in "bright colours." Hello, maybe women don't want blue or black dials because we're sick of them. Just show me the women's non-fashion models available in the US in orange, yellow, green, turquoise/teal, red, or purple. The only company that has any significant offerings is Rolex, and many women cannot afford that price point. He needs to confine his reviews to topics on which he has some actual knowledge and quit trying to confine women to conservatively coloured watches.


I've passed your comments along, as he doesn't seem open to hearing mine.

This whole exercise, from starting this thread until now, reminds me of seeing those women's magazines in the supermarket, with covers touting articles like "Ten things men REALLY want", and other such nonsense the (I assume) female magazine writers dream up.

Ten things? Ten? TEN???

We want two things - sex and sandwiches. Everything else is a bonus.


----------



## KCZ

You could also point him to this forum, where the female members regularly complain about the lack of color options available to them.


----------



## docvail

KCZ said:


> You could also point him to this forum, where the female members regularly complain about the lack of color options available to them.


Uhm...so...make sure you're sitting down, and maybe grab a soothing beverage...

I did point him to this forum, in fact this exact thread. He was...unmoved.

I'm not saying he doubled-down on his criticism, and mischaracterized what the women in this thread had to say, but...

It's cool. Every time I do anything, there are people who can't get on the hater-wagon fast enough.


----------



## Sussa

docvail said:


> "It's an out-dated marketing approach that marginalizes women by making assumptions and conveying the message that women can't like the same watches as men."


With the statement above, the reviewer seems to be implying that women wouldn't possibly be interested in a product or know that we could use it if the company making it didn't specifically say it's for us. Also, I don't recall the original NTHs being labeled as men's watches, so unlabeled = men only in this person's mind. That's marginalizing.


----------



## BillSWPA

docvail said:


> Uhm...so...make sure you're sitting down, and maybe grab a soothing beverage...
> 
> I did point him to this forum, in fact this exact thread. He was...unmoved.
> 
> I'm not saying he doubled-down on his criticism, and mischaracterized what the women in this thread had to say, but...
> 
> It's cool. Every time I do anything, there are people who can't get on the hater-wagon fast enough.
> 
> View attachment 13378135


We now know exactly what this author's opinions are worth. Time to focus on those who do like your products.

Edited to add: I just went back to the Instagram page and read the discussion between you and this idiot as it stands now. You are clearly engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. He is clearly just looking for something to criticize, and is grabbing at more and more tenuous straws in the process.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail

Sussa said:


> With the statement above, the reviewer seems to be implying that women wouldn't possibly be interested in a product or know that we could use it if the company making it didn't specifically say it's for us. Also, I don't recall the original NTHs being labeled as men's watches, so unlabeled = men only in this person's mind. That's marginalizing.


True story:

I have a new marketing guy who's quarterbacking all my media content - blog, new website, social media, all of it. We spoke earlier in the week, about what to call the Dolphin - a "ladies" model, a "unisex" model, or a "ladies/unisex" model.

We spent ten minutes agonizing over this, belaboring the issue, trying to see it from all sides, so we could avoid offending anyone, and appeal to as many people as possible.

I essentially said we should just call it a unisex model, because if we call it a "ladies" model, that's going to be an automatic turnoff to a lot of straight men, and maybe even some gay men, plus it may be a turnoff to women who might feel like we were patronizing them by using the term "ladies", and would prefer we just call it "unisex".

Meanwhile, there's nothing overtly feminine about the silver-white version, and anyone who's confused about the intent if we say "unisex" isn't likely to mistake the intended market of the magenta dial.

If we'd said nothing at all about it, and just said, "here's the Dolphin, another NTH Sub", we'd have a bunch of dudes questioning our sanity, not realizing we meant for it to be unisex, and worse, we'd likely have a lot of women overlook it, not realizing we wanted to offer women something a little different, though if I had to bet, my bet would be the men would be more oblivious about the intent than women would be.

That's really the point for me, as a business owner. My core customer is a man. They're not all very perceptive when it comes to picking up subtle clues. We needed a way to tell MEN, "Bro, buy this watch for your wife or girlfriend", but without saying that, exactly, because we sort of also want the guy who likes it for himself to be okay buying it and not feel like he's wearing a "ladies" watch.

I spent a good bit of time thinking about all this, leading up to that call. Less than a day after we reveal the Dolphin, guys are making instant snap-judgments about it, and what they say we were trying to do, and trying to say, and what women really want, etc, etc, etc.

Ours isn't the first microbrand to make a ladies/unisex (whatever you want to call it) watch, but as far as I'm aware, we're the first to go out of our way to actually get as much women's input as we did, and consider the tastes of female WIS and female non-WIS, and what might appeal to both groups, as well as what men might actually buy for their SO's.

It blows my mind this guy is railing about it the way he is.


----------



## BillSWPA

docvail said:


> True story:
> 
> I have a new marketing guy who's quarterbacking all my media content - blog, new website, social media, all of it. We spoke earlier in the week, about what to call the Dolphin - a "ladies" model, a "unisex" model, or a "ladies/unisex" model.
> 
> We spent ten minutes agonizing over this, belaboring the issue, trying to see it from all sides, so we could avoid offending anyone, and appeal to as many people as possible.
> 
> I essentially said we should just call it a unisex model, because if we call it a "ladies" model, that's going to be an automatic turnoff to a lot of straight men, and maybe even some gay men, plus it may be be a turnoff to women who might feel like we were patronizing them by using the term "ladies", and would prefer we just call it "unisex".
> 
> Meanwhile, there's nothing overtly feminine about the silver-white version, and anyone who's confused about the intent if we say "unisex" isn't likely to mistake the intended market of the magenta dial.
> 
> If we'd said nothing at all about it, and just said, "here's the Dolphin, another NTH Sub", we'd have a bunch of dudes questioning our sanity, not realizing we meant for it to be unisex, and worse, we'd likely have a lot of women overlook it, not realizing we wanted to offer women something a little different, though if I had to bet, my bet would be the men would be more oblivious about the intent than women would be.
> 
> That's really the point for me, as a business owner. My core customer is a man. They're not all very perceptive when it comes to picking up subtle clues. We needed a way to tell MEN, "Bro, buy this watch for your wife or girlfriend", but without saying that, exactly, because we sort of also want the guy who likes it for himself to be okay buying it and not feel like he's wearing a "ladies" watch.
> 
> I spent a good bit of time thinking about all this, leading up to that call. Less than a day after we reveal the Dolphin, guys are making instant snap-judgments about it, and what they say we were trying to do, and trying to say, and what women really want, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Ours isn't the first microbrand to make a ladies/unisex (whatever you want to call it) watch, but as far as I'm aware, we're the first to go out of our way to actually get as much women's input as we did, and consider the tastes of female WIS and female non-WIS, and what might appeal to both groups, as well as what men might actually buy for their SO's.
> 
> It blows my mind this guy is railing about it the way he is.


It is much easier to criticize than it is to do, which is why he is just a critic.

(I have no idea who this dude is, but since he made some really bad assumptions about you and your products, I will make some assumptions based on what he showed me in his posts).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## guspech750

Honestwatchreview? LOLzzzzz. Soooooo this person makes a “honest review” without actually having the watch in their possession. It’s obvious this person is a meat stick. The typical lame IG watch account I block when they want to follow me with hopes I follow them. 


Another watch designer/owner who’s watches I have a few of, has been using amazing dial colors like those new NTH subs above with great success. No reason these won’t be awesome and bought by women as well. I love dials that “pop” and those new subs sure pop!! If funds permit. I would rock that purplish dial in a heartbeat. 


Sent from the White House on the tax payers dime.


----------



## KCZ

guspech750 said:


> Another watch designer/owner who's watches I have a few of, has been using amazing dial colors like those new NTH subs above with great success. *No reason these won't be awesome and bought by women as well.* I love dials that "pop" and those new subs sure pop!! If funds permit. I would rock that purplish dial in a heartbeat.


They may be colorful and awesome, but the biggest reason they won't be bought by a lot of women is that if they were designed with a male market in mind, they're probably at least 38mm, which is too large for many women. If all women could wear a 38mm watch, then we wouldn't lack for color options because we could just wear men's watches. This is where the "unisex" concept fails us, IMHO.


----------



## igureta

docvail said:


> True story:
> 
> I have a new marketing guy who's quarterbacking all my media content - blog, new website, social media, all of it. We spoke earlier in the week, about what to call the Dolphin - a "ladies" model, a "unisex" model, or a "ladies/unisex" model.
> 
> We spent ten minutes agonizing over this, belaboring the issue, trying to see it from all sides, so we could avoid offending anyone, and appeal to as many people as possible.
> 
> I essentially said we should just call it a unisex model, because if we call it a "ladies" model, that's going to be an automatic turnoff to a lot of straight men, and maybe even some gay men, plus it may be a turnoff to women who might feel like we were patronizing them by using the term "ladies", and would prefer we just call it "unisex".
> 
> Meanwhile, there's nothing overtly feminine about the silver-white version, and anyone who's confused about the intent if we say "unisex" isn't likely to mistake the intended market of the magenta dial.
> 
> If we'd said nothing at all about it, and just said, "here's the Dolphin, another NTH Sub", we'd have a bunch of dudes questioning our sanity, not realizing we meant for it to be unisex, and worse, we'd likely have a lot of women overlook it, not realizing we wanted to offer women something a little different, though if I had to bet, my bet would be the men would be more oblivious about the intent than women would be.
> 
> That's really the point for me, as a business owner. My core customer is a man. They're not all very perceptive when it comes to picking up subtle clues. We needed a way to tell MEN, "Bro, buy this watch for your wife or girlfriend", but without saying that, exactly, because we sort of also want the guy who likes it for himself to be okay buying it and not feel like he's wearing a "ladies" watch.
> 
> I spent a good bit of time thinking about all this, leading up to that call. Less than a day after we reveal the Dolphin, guys are making instant snap-judgments about it, and what they say we were trying to do, and trying to say, and what women really want, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Ours isn't the first microbrand to make a ladies/unisex (whatever you want to call it) watch, but as far as I'm aware, we're the first to go out of our way to actually get as much women's input as we did, and consider the tastes of female WIS and female non-WIS, and what might appeal to both groups, as well as what men might actually buy for their SO's.
> 
> It blows my mind this guy is railing about it the way he is.


I'd say .... the male/female/ladies/unisex controversy. 
Most watches worn by rough guys sixty years ago were petite by todays standards. 
Your should be explained by saying something like this:
Modern look, classic size. 
No one would deny that.

Enviado desde mi iPad utilizando Tapatalk


----------



## BillSWPA

I have read elsewhere on WUS that men’s watches are starting to get smaller, although many are still quite large. I am also seeing an increasing number of ladies’ watches (not unisex, but ladies’ watches) in the 34-40 mm range. Could it be that people are figuring out that certain sizes just make sense for everyone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmaria1120

Ladies,
If anyone owns an NTH sub, can you post a wrist shot? I love the Dolphin in Magenta and want to pre-order in September but I'm not sure I can pull off the size. 

Doc,
Can your wife model one for us?


----------



## docvail

dmaria1120 said:


> Ladies,
> If anyone owns an NTH sub, can you post a wrist shot? I love the Dolphin in Magenta and want to pre-order in September but I'm not sure I can pull off the size.
> 
> Doc,
> Can your wife model one for us?


She has a 6" wrist.









Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## dmaria1120

Thanks for posting! I'm just under a 6" wrist. It's always helpful to see it on a wrist. Do you accept returns on pre-orders?


----------



## docvail

dmaria1120 said:


> Thanks for posting! I'm just under a 6" wrist. It's always helpful to see it on a wrist. Do you accept returns on pre-orders?


We do, so long as they're in as-delivered condition.

If you order one, try it on when it arrives, without removing all the covers. If you don't like it or it doesn't fit, put it back in the box and send it back to us for a refund.


----------



## Sillygoose

Late to the conversation. Here's my Nacken on my 5.75" wrist. Hope that helps.


dmaria1120 said:


> Ladies,
> If anyone owns an NTH sub, can you post a wrist shot? I love the Dolphin in Magenta and want to pre-order in September but I'm not sure I can pull off the size.
> 
> Doc,
> Can your wife model one for us?












- Tappy Talkied


----------



## Dub Rubb

Sillygoose said:


> Late to the conversation. Here's my Nacken on my 5.75" wrist. Hope that helps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Tappy Talkied


Just for reference, can you take a wrist shot in the mirror? It helps mitigate the cameras lens and makes the lug to lug look closer to real life. For example, I took these pics to show how exaggerated the watch looks on a wrist shot.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Shikyo

I can't believe I've been so blind and missed this thread completely. So I'm way too late for the show. However, I gotta say the end results are stunning. That magenta dial is calling for me and I honestly hope they're gonna be still available when I can buy another watch.


----------



## Sillygoose

Dub Rubb said:


> Just for reference, can you take a wrist shot in the mirror? It helps mitigate the cameras lens and makes the lug to lug look closer to real life. For example, I took these pics to show how exaggerated the watch looks on a wrist shot.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


I know what you mean. Here's a shot in the mirror. Let me know if you'd like to see more!









- Tappy Talkied


----------



## dmaria1120

Thanks for posting! The watch looks great on you! It's nice to see a wrist shot and get a feel for how it will look on. I definitely think I can pull it off after seeing similar watches on other smaller wrists.


----------



## docvail

The Dolphins are in. It's pretty overcast here today, so I couldn't get much sunlight on them, but here are some first look videos.

Hope you all like 'em.

Dolphin Magenta -






Dolphin Ice -






Also, the Holland, FWIW -


----------



## Hensser

Interesting thread - I would love to see more micro brands considering the female market. Its great to see someone doing it and hopefully it will be a success and lead to even more. Perhaps something in the 30-34mm size?
Dolphin looks fantastic!


----------



## PanKorop

Hensser said:


> Interesting thread - I would love to see more micro brands considering the female market. Its great to see someone doing it and hopefully it will be a success and lead to even more. Perhaps something in the 30-34mm size?
> Dolphin looks fantastic!


Early 2017, I looked for such one (small but not Barbie-tacky) to offer to a friend. It took patience and stalking until I chanced upon these:

https://www.melbournewatch.com.au/collections/collins

She got the blue one, and loved it (note I changed the cheapo faux croc stock strap before offering it). I almost fell for a grey 38mm version of the same Collins for myself. Note Melbourne Watch is selling the line out, at half price; so, not sure they'll try the experience of carrying a 34mm watch before some time...

Otherwise, most Soviet men's watches, Vostok excepted, were in 34 mm size as standard. A Poljot Signal (buzzer, hand wound) of the 60' or 70's makes a great woman's watch today. One I offered to my son's friend and she wears it daily.

PS: as for the Dolphin, dunno: YouTube just tells me the videos have been retired by the user...


----------



## docvail

PanKorop said:


> Early 2017, I looked for such one (small but not Barbie-tacky) to offer to a friend. It took patience and stalking until I chanced upon these:
> 
> https://www.melbournewatch.com.au/collections/collins
> 
> She got the blue one, and loved it (note I changed the cheapo faux croc stock strap before offering it). I almost fell for a grey 38mm version of the same Collins for myself. Note Melbourne Watch is selling the line out, at half price; so, not sure they'll try the experience of carrying a 34mm watch before some time...
> 
> Otherwise, most Soviet men's watches, Vostok excepted, were in 34 mm size as standard. A Poljot Signal (buzzer, hand wound) of the 60' or 70's makes a great woman's watch today. One I offered to my son's friend and she wears it daily.
> 
> PS: as for the Dolphin, dunno: YouTube just tells me the videos have been retired by the user...


Sorry, my marketing guy went in and edited them, then reposted them. You can see them all here - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqsr7EV9niRJ_ciCKvvGW3Q/videos?view_as=subscriber.


----------



## docvail

My mom loves hers.

So...there's one key endorsement.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## LauraLovesWatches

I'm a little late to the party, but I do like what you ended up designing. It is a very female-friendly watch.

Reading the input from other ladies, I find myself at a different place than a few. That's okay - different strokes. Your audience is as diverse for women as it is for men, and maybe more challenging. Hubby and I had a chat about a woman's ability to be more expressive with clothing (and accessories). I looked at my oversized shoe rack the other day and thanked him for putting up with me . He pointed out it is only natural for a woman to have and need a larger range of all sorts of clothing. What a mighty good man. Anyhow...

Not sure if you are still collecting information on a woman's mindset and watches, but here are my thoughts about my watch purchases. But hey, it's early. I have had my coffee. It's 6:30Am on a Saturday...so why not?

First off, I am 53. So "cute" watches are an embaressing prospect. At a "certain age" anything pink, baby blue, "cutesy" becomes an atrocity. Know how old ladies favor large, gaudy things? Yeah, I don't aspire to bring that day on any sooner than needed. Once I reach that age...I won't care anymore 

First off, I strongly prefer automatic watches. Automatic watches with see-through backs. Looking at the mechanics inside are as interesting as the outside. I _might_ but a quartz watch, but it will likely be a throw away fashion watch.

What I love: Iconic styles, affordable (under 1,000), and either operational excellence, or visual excellence with acceptable operations. I won't be a one watch woman. Too many dress options not suited with one watch. I need a romantic watch that looks right with a dress blouse (Tissot with white face and diamond dial), a power watch for business attire (Rado Hyperchrome blackface), Funky watch options for whimsy days (Rado DiaStar, Fossil Boyfriend Skeleton, Jazzmaster Ladies open heart, my old vintage options). I had some Bulova Automatics that got me started a few years ago I just rehomed with a neice who loves watches.

On my list of things to buy: A new diver, a beautiful large faced unisex dress watch with a flat dial and interesting design.
For myself, coor other than black, white, blue on the diver would give me pause. Would I wear a bright color with clothing of a different color? What looks cool at 25 can look colorblind at 50. I don't want anyone to whisper "that poor dear".

Please take all of this with many grains of salt, the one thing I know about ladies is that we are different creatures.


----------



## topog123

I’m a woman and I love seiko divers, they look but I don’t care, life is short and it’s my wrist &#55357;&#56834;. I prefer automatic going to check out your site now I always liked the little dog on your watches.


----------



## topog123

I’m a woman and I love seiko divers, they look but I don’t care, life is short and it’s my wrist 😂. I prefer automatic going to check out your site now I always liked the little dog on your watches.


----------



## docvail

LauraLovesWatches said:


> I'm a little late to the party, but I do like what you ended up designing. It is a very female-friendly watch.
> 
> Reading the input from other ladies, I find myself at a different place than a few. That's okay - different strokes. Your audience is as diverse for women as it is for men, and maybe more challenging. Hubby and I had a chat about a woman's ability to be more expressive with clothing (and accessories). I looked at my oversized shoe rack the other day and thanked him for putting up with me . He pointed out it is only natural for a woman to have and need a larger range of all sorts of clothing. What a mighty good man. Anyhow...
> 
> Not sure if you are still collecting information on a woman's mindset and watches, but here are my thoughts about my watch purchases. But hey, it's early. I have had my coffee. It's 6:30Am on a Saturday...so why not?
> 
> First off, I am 53. So "cute" watches are an embaressing prospect. At a "certain age" anything pink, baby blue, "cutesy" becomes an atrocity. Know how old ladies favor large, gaudy things? Yeah, I don't aspire to bring that day on any sooner than needed. Once I reach that age...I won't care anymore
> 
> First off, I strongly prefer automatic watches. Automatic watches with see-through backs. Looking at the mechanics inside are as interesting as the outside. I _might_ but a quartz watch, but it will likely be a throw away fashion watch.
> 
> What I love: Iconic styles, affordable (under 1,000), and either operational excellence, or visual excellence with acceptable operations. I won't be a one watch woman. Too many dress options not suited with one watch. I need a romantic watch that looks right with a dress blouse (Tissot with white face and diamond dial), a power watch for business attire (Rado Hyperchrome blackface), Funky watch options for whimsy days (Rado DiaStar, Fossil Boyfriend Skeleton, Jazzmaster Ladies open heart, my old vintage options). I had some Bulova Automatics that got me started a few years ago I just rehomed with a neice who loves watches.
> 
> On my list of things to buy: A new diver, a beautiful large faced unisex dress watch with a flat dial and interesting design.
> For myself, coor other than black, white, blue on the diver would give me pause. Would I wear a bright color with clothing of a different color? What looks cool at 25 can look colorblind at 50. I don't want anyone to whisper "that poor dear".
> 
> Please take all of this with many grains of salt, the one thing I know about ladies is that we are different creatures.





topog123 said:


> I'm a woman and I love seiko divers, they look but I don't care, life is short and it's my wrist ��. I prefer automatic going to check out your site now I always liked the little dog on your watches.


Happy to see this thread is still active.

Not in any way meant to contradict any of the above - my thinking was to make the Dolphin with two colorways, one of which would be more sedate (the silvery "Ice"), the other a bit more colorful, that might appeal more to women (the magenta).

My 46 yo wife loves the Magenta. So does my 70+ yo mom (please don't tell her I revealed she's that old. She would literally - not figuratively - kill me). But my aunt in her 60's preferred the more neutral ice, which also seems to appeal more to men.

My only point is - I wasn't really betting on who would like which color based on their sex or age, only that we'd probably fare better with the design if we offered it in two colors, one mild, one wild.

The feedback about the size has been mixed, which I expected. My mom's wrist is even smaller than my wife's (~6"), and they both seem happy with the size. I've had other women say it was just a little larger than they'd like. If I could rationalize making 500 or more pieces of a watch with a smaller case, I'd make one, but at the moment, the reach of my business isn't yet large enough to make that a gamble I'm willing to take.

We made these under the NTH brand, not Lew & Huey, so no little dog on these. Sorry to disappoint on that front. The L&H branding seemed polarizing to many, but those who liked it really seemed to like it, which was sort of the point, I s'pose.


----------

